# Airports for Trans-Atlantic Trips



## Anderson (Oct 24, 2012)

Ok, this may (or may not) end up having practical import for me in the next few months. There's an off chance that I'll be getting dragged to Europe for a friend's business trip (not that I'm dreading the prospect of _being_ in Europe, but the idea of _getting_ there is pretty much the closest thing to travel hell that I can imagine that _doesn't_ involve a bus or driving; with that said, while in Europe, train travel will ensue) either next month or next year. Without getting into any details, I've got a reasonably wide range of options that I'm willing to consider, up to and including catching a flight out of Canada instead of the US. Likewise, any trip that involves putting up with a domestic flight connection is pretty close to unacceptable (not to mention that having to slap a thick pad in for a rail connection also relieves me of the possibility of an overly-tight connection). Likewise as well, non-US carriers _are_ preferred. So, I'm wondering:

1) What are the better airports versus ones I should avoid like the plague? I'm eliminating Dulles from my list due to accessibility issues (driving the 3-4 hours up there and back isn't on, and I'm not up for going through the tangle that is getting from WAS out to the airport right now...call again when the Silver Line is done), and if I have to go far away, I _would_ prefer something with a decent connection to Amtrak (be it in Florida, along the NEC, or otherwise).

2) I'm wondering about connecting through Canada (presumably either Toronto or Montreal). Canadian border security tends to be pretty relaxed in my experience, and I'd rather take a modest grilling while sitting in a cafe car than wade through the lines at US Customs I've had to put up with in US airports (Miami wasn't fun coming back from the Caymans in 2003, and the lines at Charlotte made for a connection that was close enough I was already running through Amtrak timetables in my mind to figure out how to get back to Richmond with all due speed). Any advantages/disadvantages on this front, either coming or going?

3) Finally...thoughts on carriers that are good/bad/indifferent? Assume that I'm going to err on the side of Business Class...as I intend to tell said friend, if I have to travel coach across the Atlantic, then I'll probably just skip the trip.


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## caravanman (Oct 24, 2012)

Hi,

Although I have crossed the Atlantic to visit America many times in recent years, I can only afford budget seats, so cannot give any real advice on business class flights.

I believe forum member Jis is often flying around the world, and also prefers business class, so he may be able to advise.

My own preference when leaving the states to fly home are more around the flight times.. One can get an 8 or 9 am flight from EWR, JFK, or from ORD in Chicago, and arrive into London around 9pm UK time that same evening. My bodyclock finds this more acceptable than an overnight flight, as I don't manage to sleep much on flights.

I have tended to use British Airways or American Airlines, simply because they don't serve peanuts, which my son is allergic to.

I flew back from Trivandrum in India to Manchester, UK via the Gulf, on Quatar airlines and found that to be a pleasant trip.

As to airports, I find EWR has always been quick to pass out through in the mornings, most USA airports are pretty slow and hard going for foreign visitors entering the USA, probably quicker for USA passport holders I guess.

I flew into Toronto when I was taking my Canadian rail trip, and found that to be an easy and simple entry process, but I would tend to use whatever airport was nearest, and just grin and put up with the process untill I can use the humane train mode of travel again!

Ed


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## Anderson (Oct 24, 2012)

Well, for me, "close" is a _very _relative term. The Newport News airport has had "issues" for a while (Southwest pulled out a while ago), and Norfolk isn't much better. Neither is Richmond, really. Moreover, I'd need to connect through somewhere, as none of the local airports offer any meaningful international options (hint: If I have to connect, the odds of me abandoning the connection home in favor of "alternate transportation" [coughAmtrakcough] is a value very close to 1).

Newark is practical; under certain circumstances, Orlando or Tampa are as well (namely, if my friend is flying out of there, I'll just take a Silver down a day in advance). But truth be told, I'm more or less assuming that I'm killing a day getting to/from the airport given that virtually every airport within a vaguely drivable distance is, well, expensive, while the cheapest one is (I believe) the one with the worst options.

With BC, it's not so much that I'm up for spending the money...I consider "not going" to be a perfectly valid option here. It's more that, when I get down to it, if I'm going to take a trip I intend to be comfortable while doing so.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2012)

Choice of departure airport in the US also depends on where in Europe you are going to.

BTW, Just like on Amtrak one figures out the best way to use AGR points and money to get into Sleepers, on international flights one figures out the best way to get into Business Class using miles and money in some acceptable combo. I have not yet paid full fare for Business Class, but have paid upgrade fares which, if done right, is way less than full fare or even regular discounted fare, but may involve being on a waiting list, which clears on a carefully selected flight. Takes quite a bit of homework.

However, for just a trans-Atlantic flight to Western Europe, which is just 6 to 8 hours and sometimes a bit shorter, Economy+ seats on airlines that offer them are worth the upcharge. In general the upcharge for Business is not worth it for Europe IMHO.

Since you have decided that you want a non-US airline, if you happen to be going to Germany I'd recommend Singapore Airlines out of New York JFK to Frankfurt Rhein-Main. You will experience what is arguably the best airline in the world and also the giant Airbus A380. Getting to JFK by train is easy. Amtrak to New York Penn, then LIRR to Jamaica and then Airtrain from there to your designated terminal at JFK. The flight departs around 8pm, so you have plenty of time to get to the airport in the same day.

In coach having experienced the wonders of service on these airlines, I rate Lufthansa, Air France, KLM and BA pretty much similar to United or Delta, so I do not generally avoid US airlines. But then again I don't drink alcohol which costs real money on some US airlines in Coach.

If it is London that you are going to, your real choices are among British, Virgin, United and Delta, of which at least three run almost a corridor service, with more flights a day from New York than Amtrak has on most of its corridors. London is the 8th largest O/D destination from New York. And you can get 'em all from Newark Liberty International (EWR) which you can get to directly on select Amtrak Northeast Regionals. Many more additional frequencies available from JFK.

BTW, I think it is somewhat insane to go to Canada to catch a flight to Europe, and I'd never bother doing that myself, unless there was a huge fare difference in favor of the Canada routing. In general I'd try to depart from the closest international airport that has a non-stop flight to the intended destination, and prefer to drive or take a train or something, a few hours to it rather than bothering with domestic air connection if at all possible. Each connection increases the possibility of things going wrong, and therefore I try avoiding them as much as I can. Of course I am fortunate to be living 20mins from one of the premier international gateway airports in the country.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 24, 2012)

Here in Halifax we have daily non-stop service to/from London Heathrow (plus Frankfurt in summer) and a lot of US travelers pass through here now for the easy connections. For example, arriving from London a passenger would first clear Canada Customs ** then go up-stairs to US CBP. They've now cleared all formalities in Halifax and their connecting flight back to the US arrives at a domestic gate…….no further formalities. Just walk of the plane in the US and you're on your way. No long customs lines at JFK, PHL, ORD or DTW to go through and easy connection onward in the US right at the domestic gates!

**In some larger Canadian airports, passengers arriving from International don't even have to go through Canada Customs first…….they're in transit and just proceed directly to US CBP pre-clearance. Again arriving back in the US as a domestic flight and no customs line-ups.

An interesting transatlantic service is Air Canada's narrow-body A319 from St. John's, Newfoundland to London Heathrow. (and that A319 certainly looks tiny among the wide-bodies on the ramp there!) Under five hours across the pond and no line-ups at Customs in St. John's. United serves St. John's from Newark and is a Star Alliance partner with Air Canada. 

A319 Transatlantic Trip Report


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## rrdude (Oct 24, 2012)

WOW!

Just nosing around the Air Canada web site, and the "Where We Fly" interactive map. The way that map works is WAY COOL. Best "travel planning" map I've experienced in a while.


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## the_traveler (Oct 24, 2012)

You could also consider Boston Logan as a choice. Direct T service from South Station, and at least non-stop flight on Air France to Paris.


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## fairviewroad (Oct 24, 2012)

Couple of options that haven't been mentioned:

British Airways flies non-stop daily from BWI to London. Flight leaves at 9 p.m. Easy and cheap to get from Richmond to BWI on the same day with plenty of padding before

the flight. OTOH, the return flight from London arrives into BWI at 5:20 p.m., which (surprisingly) makes it nearly impossible to get back to RVR on the same day via Amtrak.

Also, American Airlines flies non-stop daily from Raleigh to London. If you took Amtrak from Richmond, you'd definitely have to spend the night in Raleigh in either

direction (or just drive from Richmond to Raleigh). Yes, it's a US carrier but you'd have the benefit of using a small-ish airport for your international flight. Customs

in RDU would only be working "your" flight so it wouldn't take terribly long.

Personally, I haven't found US Customs agents to be any better or worse than their Canadian counterparts...it's really a roll of the dice in terms of the specific agent

and what mood he or she is in. I really wouldn't go that far out of my way to avoid clearing customs in the US, but YMMV.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 24, 2012)

I've flown to westernish Europe out of Dulles before and found it to be fine. Better than Newark, IMHO. To get to Dulles, you could take a NEC Regional to ALX and transfer to Metro's Blue line, as the ALX station and the King Street Metro Station are right next to each other. Take the Blue Line to Rosslyn, then transfer to the Orange Line and take it to the West Falls Church station, where the Washington Flyer bus runs directly to Dulles every half hour on the :15s and :45s. The Flyer costs $10 one way and I believe $18 r/t.

I've flown into Montreal before from Europe. US customs was about the same there as anyplace in the U.S. Since I had a connecting flight into The States, I only went through US customs and immigration.

I would NOT advise flying into Canada and then taking the train into the US for several reasons. First, you'll go through Canadian and US inspection rther than just the U.S. The second reason is that I think you would raise certain 'red flags' by flying into Canada and then taking the train, as it is atypical and I think would make you a candidate for closer scrutiny. Also don't try and tell the US border agents that you were only in Canada. There might have been a time when one could have 'gotten away' with that, but no more. And the last thing you'd want to do is to get caught in a lie to Homeland Security.


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## CHamilton (Oct 24, 2012)

There's always Sea-Tac




They have nonstop flights to London, Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt...oh, and Dubai. http://www.portseattle.org/Sea-Tac/Flights-Airlines/Route-Maps/Pages/Non-Stop-International.aspx


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## tomfuller (Oct 24, 2012)

My one and only trip to and from Europe (Lisbon) was from Newark on Continental. Amtrak has a free shuttle from the station to the terminal (EWR) BWI also has an Amtrak station. Hope this helps.

This is my first post on this website. I will introduce myself soon.


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## afigg (Oct 24, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I've flown to westernish Europe out of Dulles before and found it to be fine. Better than Newark, IMHO. To get to Dulles, you could take a NEC Regional to ALX and transfer to Metro's Blue line, as the ALX station and the King Street Metro Station are right next to each other. Take the Blue Line to Rosslyn, then transfer to the Orange Line and take it to the West Falls Church station, where the Washington Flyer bus runs directly to Dulles every half hour on the :15s and :45s. The Flyer costs $10 one way and I believe $18 r/t.


The other bus to Dulles airport is the WMATA 5A bus which runs from L'Enfant Plaza Metro station, then Rosslyn Metro, both of which would be direct trips on the DC Metro from Alexandria -> King St station, although Rosslyn would be the shorter trip to Dulles. Costs $6, runs every 40 mins or hour according to the WMATA schedule. If I was coming from Alexandria, I could see checking the schedule for the next Flyer bus from West Falls Church (with a Metro connection at Rosslyn) versus the next 5A from Rosslyn to decide which one to take. Dulles is not difficult to get via bus transit. It will be far better connected when the DC Metro Silver Line opens at the airport, but Phase 2 now has a projected 2018 completion date, pending award of the construction contract.

But Dulles is not an airport that is known for aggressive discount airfares. BWI, Newark airport are likely to have cheaper fares.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 24, 2012)

Excellent suggestions all, but I too think that jis, that World Traveler, has nailed it with his info! A 6-8 Hour Flight isnt that long in Coach and as was said, Business Class Isn't Worth the Huge jump in the Fare Unless You aren't Paying for it! :giggle: US Customs and Immigration is what it is, my biggest concern would be flying into Places that are Notorious for being Slow and "Difficult" such as JFK and Hartsfield! Scott was correct about not setting off Red Flags by Flying into/out of Canada and having to go through the TSA/Custom and Immigration Gaunlet twice!

I especially like Eddie's Comment about taking Day Time Flights, the Overnighters over the Pond tend to make one a Zombie for a Couple of Days after arrival!

Dont let a bunch of wanna-be Cops in Uniform deny you a trip to Europe, I say go to Newark or BWI and Fly over on the Schedule that Works for You and the Best Fare you can Snag, there are some Real Deals during "Off Season" and Shoulder Seasons if booked correctly! Google is your friend here! Bon Voyage!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 24, 2012)

Anderson said:


> The idea of [flying to Europe] is pretty much the closest thing to travel hell that I can imagine that _doesn't_ involve a bus or driving.


Are you afraid of flying?



Anderson said:


> Without getting into any details, I've got a reasonably wide range of options that I'm willing to consider, up to and including catching a flight out of Canada instead of the US.


Why would you do that?



Anderson said:


> 1) What are the better airports versus ones I should avoid like the plague? I'm eliminating Dulles from my list due to accessibility issues (driving the 3-4 hours up there and back isn't on, and I'm not up for going through the tangle that is getting from WAS out to the airport right now...call again when the Silver Line is done), and if I have to go far away, I _would_ prefer something with a decent connection to Amtrak (be it in Florida, along the NEC, or otherwise).


Maybe you should start by telling us which airports you’re willing to fly from. I’ve exited/entered the US from a half dozen different gateway airports but I’m not sure any of them would meet your criteria. The one and only airport in the entire world that I've ever truly regretted using was London's Heathrow. Lots of airports have problems, sometimes even really big problems, but Heathrow has a special way of combining everything I don't like about other airports into one massive cluster of fail. Not every terminal at Heathrow is a dump, but they are all stuck with the same runways and holding patterns.



Anderson said:


> 2) I'm wondering about connecting through Canada (presumably either Toronto or Montreal). Canadian border security tends to be pretty relaxed in my experience, and I'd rather take a modest grilling while sitting in a cafe car than wade through the lines at US Customs I've had to put up with in US airports (Miami wasn't fun coming back from the Caymans in 2003, and the lines at Charlotte made for a connection that was close enough I was already running through Amtrak timetables in my mind to figure out how to get back to Richmond with all due speed). Any advantages/disadvantages on this front, either coming or going?


My experience with preclearance in YYZ wasn’t that much different than passing through conventional US gateways. I haven’t had to clear in Miami so maybe it’s substantially worse than other gateways. Personally I found SFO, ORD, DFW, and IAH to be pretty easy to manage. JFK and LAX seemed to take longer than the others, but they also have more customers to deal with. I'm not very fond of Delta so I never had to deal with ATL. In my experience most of what slows you down is probably beyond your control anyway. Large numbers of arrivals surrounding your flight, abnormal numbers of flag trips, domestic and international events, poorly timed shift changes, unexpected staff shortages, computer problems, etc. can all impact your best laid plans. All you can do is pick seats close to the front of the plane and consider paying extra for priority access and trusted traveler clearance.



Anderson said:


> 3) Finally...thoughts on carriers that are good/bad/indifferent? Assume that I'm going to err on the side of Business Class...as I intend to tell said friend, if I have to travel coach across the Atlantic, then I'll probably just skip the trip.


By the time I had enough money to think about splurging on international business class tickets I had already done enough flying that I had learned how to deal with long flights in coach class. Premium cabins are fine and all, but if I really want to be well treated on my trip I’ll spend my money on five star hotels instead. When I’m on a plane I’m usually sleeping or watching a movie or listening to music and don’t really need or want much attention from the crew. I’m a tall guy, so I make sure to request or purchase bulkhead or exit row seats. I’ve seen hundreds of takeoffs and landings so I don’t really care if I have a window seat or not. Other than that I don’t need much to keep me happy beyond a courteous hello, a clean restroom, a drink now and then, and a gracious goodbye. Most of the meals are edible but not exactly memorable, even in the premium cabins, so it’s just not that big of a deal to me. If you’re curious what you might be missing out on just surf through flyertalk’s trip reports and you’ll find every minute detail on virtually every cabin from every airline you can imagine. If you think it’s worth $5,000-$10,000 of your own money then by all means pony up. As for me I think it’s a joke that anyone would pay that much and many folks in those seats probably don’t. They either redeem miles or they spend someone else’s money instead.


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## Anderson (Oct 24, 2012)

Fairviewroad:

The Raleigh option is worth looking at; it's one I hadn't thought of. I'd probably end up going down there the night before, though (so I'd take the previous day's Carolinian or Silver Star into Raleigh).

Also, as mentioned elsewhere, BWI might be a good one as well, though I know what you mean about the issues with timing.

Texas Sunset:

It's not fear, it's hatred. Bluntly, I hate just about everything surrounding the airline industry these days. I've gone on and on about this before, but the short version is that between the security theater and so forth on the one hand, and the legroom issues on the other. Yes, I hold the US airlines responsible for more or less going along with this.

Honestly, no small part of this comes down to the fact that I want to deny the US airlines my business due to this, and I want to deny US airports my business, my security fees, etc. Consider it a version of "shunpiking" (I regret that I can't actually take money out of the TSA's pockets, but that would involve embezzlement, which I have a strong desire not to support; likewise, I regret that I cannot fire their employees, but I'm not in a position to do that, either). But most of it is that I've almost exclusively had unenjoyable experiences on planes and in airports, almost always get off the plane sore, and so on. The two factors are related, of course.

The point has been made elsewhere (both on AU and in innumerable other places) that I have a choice not to fly. That is true, and I would point out the times I've taken the train to Flagstaff rather than flying, the times I've taken the train to Florida rather than flying, and so on. Basically, I exercise that option as much as I can, but there's this obnoxious ocean in the way that makes trips to Europe hard to do without flying (at least, since the ocean liners stopped competing on time and cut the number of crossings down to about one a month in season for Cunard and not much else to be had).

As to what airports I'm willing to consider, draw a line at Atlanta, central Florida, Chicago, and include southern Canada. Exclude anything east of Montreal in Canada. That's my circle. Basically, assume that I'm willing to blow either a day or a night en route to the airport. Hey, it's some time on a train.

Likewise, I sort of take it as a given that I'm going to be taking trains in Europe. Technically, my destination will be Romania...but I'll figure out how I get there once I sort out where I'm coming into Europe. Singapore Airlines to Frankfurt is a likely winner here, but I'm flexible. I'll also likely, if this becomes anything resembling regular, be picking one airline to deal with.

Also, I don't mind if I either get stuck with an "open jaw" ticket or something that, on the way back, nominally puts me through a North American transfer on a US airline. If you get down to it, I really have no scruples about ditching segments (and I actually considered something along these lines with a recent trip...YUL-JFK was affordable but had awful layoer times...but a connection took place at PHL, so my emergency plan was to fly into PHL and just walk out of the airport onto the SEPTA line to 30th Street).


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## jis (Oct 24, 2012)

If you are going to be traveling abroad regularly, I would strongly recommend that you spend $100 and get on US CBP's Trusted Traveler Program for 5 years. You will never have to deal with an US CBP Immigration agent again. Word of caution though, if you are opposed to giving your biometrics to the government then this program is not for you. But if you do go for it, then you will also be able to use your Trusted Traveler Number to register for TSA's Pre-Check which will make the security check process much less of an ordeal too, though unfortunately not for international flights since Pre-Check is not available for those.

I am on the CBP Trusted Traveler program and except for crossing the border from Canada on Amtrak, I have not spoken to or met a single CBP agent in the last two years. It is always, walk up to the Kiosk, stick your Passport in the reader, place your fingers on the fingerprint reader, answer a few standard questions on the touch screen, and get the entry slip printed out and off you go. Takes a minute, and there is never a line at the usually dozen or so machines.


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## johnny.menhennet (Oct 24, 2012)

Saw a mention of Miami and the hassle there, so I wanted to provide my experiences. Coming back from Nicaragua a few days after Christmas (2010), we arrived between 6 and 8 pm. It took us awhile to open the cabin door, and in the meantime, two other 767s pulled up on both sides of us, and started disembarking. We were in first, so nobody was concerned about not getting to customs quickly, but then my cousin had to go to the bathroom, and he took forever, so as more large planes arrived, we were screwed. GUESS WHAT??? We weren't!!! The Customs service here was the quickest my grandparents had ever seen. It had just been remodeled and my grandparents had prepared and submitted an application to go through the fast customs, but the regular lines themselves were actually faster. For us, we waited for 30 seconds to make it to an agent, in the regular US citizen lanes. Nothing special, just being a citizen. The Miami airport is actually very efficient, from my experiences in both directions, and while I would not recommend going there to get to England when you are coming from Virginia, my personal experiences in the days both before and after in Miami were extremely positive. This was American btw.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I hate just about everything surrounding the airline industry these days. I've gone on and on about this before, but the short version is that between the security theater and so forth on the one hand, and the legroom issues on the other. Yes, I hold the US airlines responsible for more or less going along with this.


If you're going to be up in arms about the security theater then blame the politicians who passed the laws that created and funded the enormous beast we now call the Department of Homeland Security. As for the airlines they don't owe you anything. The only people they answer to are the board of directors. Yeah, supposedly it's the shareholders who they answer to, but nobody who is paying attention believes that anymore. Shareholders don't get squat in most bankruptcies and the few protections they used to have are so weakened as to be nearly insignificant from a practical perspective. As for the leg room pay for a bulkhead or exit row or premium economy seat. Or just plunk down $5,000+ for international business class if you have that kind of money. You can also get those seats with miles or status if you're willing to jump through enough hoops.



Anderson said:


> Honestly, no small part of this comes down to the fact that I want to deny the US airlines my business due to this, and I want to deny US airports my business, my security fees, etc. Consider it a version of "shunpiking" (I regret that I can't actually take money out of the TSA's pockets, but that would involve embezzlement, which I have a strong desire not to support; likewise, I regret that I cannot fire their employees, but I'm not in a position to do that, either).


If you want to strangle the TSA then start by voting out anyone who supports them and voting in whoever wants to slash their budget or replace them with a less invasive mandate. Start a petition or join an anti-TSA group. Demand to be groped every time they try to x-ray you. I know it's no fun to be groped, but it's probably at least as bad to be the guy who has to do all the groping. If you can make it as unpleasant for them as it is for us then you're probably achieving just as much or more than staying home would accomplish.



Anderson said:


> As to what airports I'm willing to consider, draw a line at Atlanta, central Florida, Chicago, and include southern Canada. Exclude anything east of Montreal in Canada. That's my circle. Technically, my destination will be Romania...but I'll figure out how I get there once I sort out where I'm coming into Europe. Singapore Airlines to Frankfurt is a likely winner here, but I'm flexible. I'll also likely, if this becomes anything resembling regular, be picking one airline to deal with.


If you're looking for a trans Atlantic trip on SQ then you're flying out of JFK. Next closest option on SQ that I'm aware of is IAH > DME (Houston > Moscow) but I don't think you'd be interested in that and its way out of your comfort circle. Everything else on SQ is either polar (and slated to be discontinued) or West Coast to Asia. I've had decent luck with ORD (Chicago) on both outbound and inbound flights although SQ won't be an option and in the winter time it can get bogged down pretty quick. Just depends on the traffic and weather. Normally you don't need to pick just one airline, but in the case of SQ they won't accept anybody's miles but their own for premium cabins to or from North America. Oh, and their award chart is nuts. They require up a million points each way for their "Suites Class" seats up front. Most of the folks I know who have a million miles or more in a single account took many years of near constant flying to get there. Even with massive amounts of credit card churn it would take a substantial amount of spending to get that many points into any single account, let alone a KrisFlyer account. Personally I think SQ is a little too full of themselves at this point. There are several other Asian airlines that are just as good as SQ that are much easier to redeem on. That being said, now that I know their polar routes are slated for discontinuation I'm considering my options. None of my UA, UR, AA, or US miles can be used on SQ's polar routes, so my options are rather limited. I recently dumped 20,000 SQ miles into my UA account before I found out that the ultra long haul routes were going to be abandoned. Oh well, such is life I suppose.


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## Anderson (Oct 25, 2012)

You know, when you consider the stats about lost business from security measures, I would think the Boards of Directors would be looking to rein in the TSA. Maybe not get rid of it (I've seen an argument that it saved them money), but at least put a leash on it so they could pump up their bonuses (or at least avoid seeing their shares and options get nuked in a bankruptcy). Ditto their bondholders, who also take a bath in those proceedings.

Sadly, I don't know of any flatly anti-TSA politicians in my area, with a few odd exceptions on the libertarian side (who run into other issues regarding Amtrak). So, the best I can do, at least locally, is to simply take my business elsewhere, convert people, and let my seething contempt for the TSA show when it will do some good in the best doses I can offer it.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2012)

Anderson said:


> You know, when you consider the stats about lost business from security measures, I would think the Boards of Directors would be looking to rein in the TSA. Maybe not get rid of it (I've seen an argument that it saved them money), but at least put a leash on it so they could pump up their bonuses (or at least avoid seeing their shares and options get nuked in a bankruptcy). Ditto their bondholders, who also take a bath in those proceedings.


The airlines actually love the TSA thing, because it removes a huge financial risk from their shoulders. If anything goes wrong with security, now it is TSA's fault, and not the airline's. You will not get a huge surge of enthusiasm from any airline executive or board member who takes his/her fiduciary responsibility seriously to change the state of affairs as far as that goes. And no, no airline is going bankrupt due to the TSA. That is just wishful thinking on part of TSA haters. The primary culprit for financial troubles is fuel price these days. It also used to be overcapacity and under-pricing, and before their respective Chapter 11 exercises cost of staff and residual cost of staff that have left, but the airlines seem to have learned how to fix both of those.



> Sadly, I don't know of any flatly anti-TSA politicians in my area, with a few odd exceptions on the libertarian side (who run into other issues regarding Amtrak). So, the best I can do, at least locally, is to simply take my business elsewhere, convert people, and let my seething contempt for the TSA show when it will do some good in the best doses I can offer it.


In my personal thinking avoiding airline travel for that reason is mostly cutting ones nose to spite ones face. But that's just me and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  Of course opinions also depend on what one likes or does not like to do, and I love to fly at least as much as I love to ride trains.  I feel the same rush of excitement from a TGV winding up to 200mph as I do from a GE90 winding up to full rpm on a 777 starting its takeoff roll. I am an equal sucker for all such things to do with rail and air travel!


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 25, 2012)

jis said:


> ...and I love to fly at least as much as I love to ride trains.  I feel the same rush of excitement from a TGV winding up to 200mph as I do from a GE90 winding up to full rpm on a 777 starting its takeoff roll. I am an equal sucker for all such things to do with rail and air travel!


I love taking off and landing in planes too. Not sure I care for sitting for long periods of time though, especially if I don't have a window seat. Luckily (as to the long sitting), or unluckily (take offs & landings & traveling), I don't travel much though that may change now that I have a grandchild across the country. I will probably split my travels between the trains and the planes when visiting my daughter's family...as long as they live near a train station, which they do currently.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2012)

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > ...and I love to fly at least as much as I love to ride trains.  I feel the same rush of excitement from a TGV winding up to 200mph as I do from a GE90 winding up to full rpm on a 777 starting its takeoff roll. I am an equal sucker for all such things to do with rail and air travel!
> ...


As long as I have my noise canceling headphone and iPhone (iPod) and a book or two, I am in good shape whether it is on a train or on a plane.  For me train rides are not great social events. I already have way too much social event in the rest of my life. That is why I like roomettes and not coaches.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 25, 2012)

jis said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


noise canceling headphone - I can just turn off my HA's 

I do take a book or two with me.

My flight out to Utah in August, I was "stuck" in the middle seat, so I couldn't look out the window (with my nose practically glued to the window) so I read my book. But, maybe an 1/2 hour out of Denver (where I was connecting to a smaller plane to Provo), I started getting a little antsy in the pants (yes, I did get up to use the rest room...as much as an excuse to get up as to actually needed to go). Coming back I had a direct flight from SLC to BWI and again, about an 1/2 hour before BWI I was a little bit uncomfortable. Jis, you've met me, so you know it wasn't a case of the seat being too small or too "tight" for my legs. It's just that I was getting a bit bored, I guess. What does seem to help is if I have the headrest TV set to the GPS map (which I had on my previous flight from SLC to BWI in November). I tend to like to know where I am and what time it is...or in these cases how much longer till we land.

I've always thought that I wouldn't like any flights more than 2-1/2 - 3 hours. Guess I was right. Guess I won't be going to Ireland to see where my great-grandfather immigrated from.


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## Anderson (Oct 25, 2012)

Jis,

I was never terribly big on flying to begin with, aside from the little kid "ooh" and "ahh" about flying in the big plane (though "chasing the sunset" on the way to California back in the mid-90s was nice, I'll admit). I could never sleep in the cabin, I always got antsy in my seat, and as I grew up, I found it hard to juggle things at my seat. I've also been on exactly one round trip in the last decade that involved a flight longer than about two hours (to Las Vegas in 2008), and in that case I did check Amtrak to see if that trip would work (outbound wouldn't have, but I could have probably wedged it in on the return were the Desert Wind still running and/or had I been willing to go to Kingman to catch the SWC...had I actually sorted out my travel dates properly). The only other good airline story I have was when I had a comparative politics discussion with a Guatemalan government minister on my way to Miami (due to a seating mess on the Chicago-Miami flight).

But...there's just very little to enjoy about flying anymore, even such as there might have been ten years ago. Being a realist, there's not even much that the airlines can offer me that I /want/ at reasonable prices, particularly after the security hassles got added on. About half of the time I shove a trip together (usually at the last minute), airfares are going to be more expensive (especially with Des Moines, Iowa...getting a sleeper has wound up being cheaper than the cheapest coach ticket I could find) and the hassle is going to be worse (particularly if connections are involved). The closest analogue to flying that I can think of was my MTR-NYP-WAS return trip in September (where I grabbed dinner at TGI Friday's before boarding my train south to WAS), but even there the scenery and conversation on the train was better than anything I recall while flying, while the food on board was decent (compared with bupkis while flying) and it was almost assuredly cheaper ($329 RT WAS-MTR last minute including a ticket on the Acela up back in August/September and $186 OW RVR-MTR including a roomette RVR-NYP; the return leg was more complicated because I met someone at NYP for the ride home, forcibly splitting the ticket).

The point being that other than rushing from A to B, I really don't gain much of anything by flying, I've got gobs and gobs of points with AGR, so there are only a handful of trips where flying would make sense...and I'd note that in those few cases, AGR /does/ make a difference (example: Virginia-to-Flagstaff often runs around $500-600 with a couple weeks' notice and with a rather impressive tolerance for airport connections), though that varies based on which airport you go from. On the other hand, on AGR+coach, I'm looking at perhaps $150-200 plus 40,000 points and getting meals included for the better part of three days and being somewhat less subject to catastrophic delays (particularly a big deal at Christmas...at least with Amtrak, I'm going to _get_ to Iowa).


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 25, 2012)

Anderson, maybe you should look into THIS.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 25, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Anderson, maybe you should look into THIS.


As long as he doesn't want to leave in the next few days. :giggle:

At least the ships can, with enough notice, steer out of the way of storms whereas trains are limited if there is even any alternative route they could take.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2012)

When I decided to move to the US while half my family remained in India, I made a conscious decision to do a lot of flying, and that was in my thinking not a bad thing. 

I fly to visit family and friends 8000 miles away, not quite as often as people drive to do the same, but when needed often enough. I have done 3 round trips to India this year for various reasons, and will be doing a fourth in Dec/Jan. And then there is a RT to Scotland coming up visiting family, and then there are the business trips to Israel and Germany that come and go, with an occasional one to Japan or China thrown in. There have been moths when I am not quite sure which time zone I am in.  Specially weekend trips to India will do that to you.


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## saxman (Oct 27, 2012)

There's probably not much of a point to get to Canada just so you can avoid the TSA. Canada has their own version of the TSA as well, and you'll have to pay for it either way. Same goes for when you leave to come back to the US. I find the USBP to be just fine when entering the US. You have a US Passport and thousands of tourists travel between Europe and the US everyday, and they know that. I don't think there is really anything to worry about when it comes to US Customs. Same goes for entering the EU.

Have you looked at departing PHL? As you probably know, thats also an easy airport to get to by train. British Airways has two flights per day to London, the late one leaving as late as 11 PM. There are other flights to the other major gateways in Europe as well. But if you want to ride the Eurostar, flying into London is probably a good start. You can also consider doing an open jaw itinerary. Such as fly into London, then fly back from Frankfurt or wherever you end up.

Otherwise, Orlando and Tampa both have flights to London as well. But I wouldn't rely on a LD train to get me to an international connection, even if you planned an overnight there. I'd stick with RDU, BWI, PHL or any other northeastern airport.


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## George Harris (Oct 27, 2012)

saxman said:


> There's probably not much of a point to get to Canada just so you can avoid the TSA. Canada has their own version of the TSA as well, and you'll have to pay for it either way. Same goes for when you leave to come back to the US. I find the USBP to be just fine when entering the US. You have a US Passport and thousands of tourists travel between Europe and the US everyday, and they know that. I don't think there is really anything to worry about when it comes to US Customs. Same goes for entering the EU.


Can't say about back and forth US and Europe, as I have never done it, but did spend 17 years of back and forth US and east Asia. My worst and silliest customs experiences were always entering the US. My high point remains one occasion at Seattle when entering with oldest son. We handed over two US Passports, and the first question we were asked was, "Why are you entering the United States?"


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## jis (Oct 27, 2012)

George Harris said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > There's probably not much of a point to get to Canada just so you can avoid the TSA. Canada has their own version of the TSA as well, and you'll have to pay for it either way. Same goes for when you leave to come back to the US. I find the USBP to be just fine when entering the US. You have a US Passport and thousands of tourists travel between Europe and the US everyday, and they know that. I don't think there is really anything to worry about when it comes to US Customs. Same goes for entering the EU.
> ...


That's why I like not having to deal with inane humans that are full of themselves and deal with a dumb machine instead.

Although the last trip to Canada was a refreshing change. The US CBP agent at Rouses Point actually behaved as well as ( or perhaps even better than) the CBSA agent had done at Lacolle going the other way, which was very well. That was a first!

I think maybe CBP is putting their agents through a bit of "Social Training".


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## Texan Eagle (Oct 27, 2012)

George Harris said:


> and the first question we were asked was, "Why are you entering the United States?"


I recently saw an Indian movie that makes a joke about this eternally-asked question. The conversation goes something like this-

Airport officer: Sir, what is the purpose of your visit to the United States?

Hero: I'm here to help your country

Officer: What? How?

Hero: Y'know, spend some dollars, do some shopping, push in some funds to revive your struggling economy... you don't want that? Should I just go back?

I want to try this answer next time at the Port of Entry.. or maybe not


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## xyzzy (Oct 27, 2012)

I fly to Europe about once every 4 weeks on business. Suggest you plan backward from wherever in Europe you want to spend your first night. One strategy is to land at an airport where there is an integral intercity train station (e.g. Zuerich, Frankfurt, Amsterdam) and then take a train to your first night's destination. In most cases you won't be able to check into a hotel upon landing in the morning in Europe anyway -- unless you pay for the room from the night before. Another strategy is to land in the city where you will spend the first night, drop off your bags at a hotel, and sightsee. (The younger one is, the easier it is to do this and stay awake). Once you know where you want to fly into, you can find out what cities in the U.S. have nonstops to the European airport you've chosen -- then you can decide which of those U.S. airports are the most convenient.


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