# Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I am looking for brainstorming/suggestions on how to introduce/re-introduce Amtrak to the largest metro areas that do not have service.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_cities_in_U.S._lacking_Amtrak_service#cite_note-4

Amtrak-less markets with 500,000 or more people:

Phoenix:

Is a return to the old route practical? How about a separate train from LAX to Phoenix?

Las Vegas:

I'm guessing Nevada is full speed ahead for Xpress West so little chance for state funding here. I guess Amtrak could do through cars between SLC and LAX connecting to the CZ but that would probably be really expensive and lose way too much money.

Columbus:

A 3-C will never happen with Kasich as governor. I would hope any sane governor would start it. AAO proposed CHI-Ft. Wayne/Columbus/PGH. If they could extend it to PHL/NYP it would IMHO be a great new route.

Nashville:

You could probably go in several directions:

a) to IND/CHI via Louisville (which would take care of Louisville as well),

b) to ATL,

c) to Va/WAS via Knoxville? (WoodyInNYC suggested it: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66173-fiscally-constrained-system-vision/?p=632976, http://clevelandbanner.com/stories/amtrak-linethrough-areagets-new-look,13181 

d) to Memphis?

Maybe you can have a CHI-ATL train through Nashville. But I'm not aware of any practical routes.

Louisville:

You could go to IND/CHI or to CIN. Perhaps you can combine with Nashville. I would say the two cities and states (KY/TN) should work together to get service. We are talking about almost 3 million new potential Amtrak customers between the two markets. You would think KY and TN would want better service than they have now but you would also think OH would too.

Tulsa:
No idea. Extend the Heartland Flyer?

Knoxville:

See links in the Nashville section.

Allentown:
Don't think anything to PHL is likely but NYP might be.

Baton Rouge:

They are studying the link to NOL.

McAllen, TX:

Honestly I had never heard of it until today. The only possibilities I could guess would be a state supported to HOU and/or SAS.

Dayton, OH:

Would be part of any 3-C route when there is a governor who would support it.

Akron, OH:

Old Broadway route. Not even AAO is proposing any service there.

Colorado Springs:
No idea.

Boise:

Bringing back the Pioneer?

Wichita:

Extending the Heartland Flyer to KCY or Newton which would allow a connection to the SWC.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2013/05/wichitas-amtrak-supporters-plan.html

Madison:

Probably would have to be a state supported to either CHI or Milwaukee. Good luck with Walker in charge.

Ogden:

There is Front Runner to SLC. Any Ogden service would probably would be a part of a Pioneer.

Des Moines:

The wiki says it's part of a CHI to Omaha route but the link appears dead.

Augusta, GA:
No idea.

Scranton/Wilkes Barre, PA:

NJT is working on the Lackawanna Cutoff.

Youngstown, OH:

AAO proposals between CLE and PGH.

Chattanooga, TN:

See links in the Nashville section.

Tri-Cities, TN:

See links in the Nashville section.


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## DesertDude

Thanks for the Wikipedia link, Philly Amtrak Fan!

I was thinking about this just the other day. Amtrak can't serve every town in America, but in a perfect world they could hit the "sweet spot" cities: those metro areas with at least 100-200k people and poor commercial flight options. It is quite frustrating when an existing route could serve a nearby metro (and boost ridership), but doesn't due to host RR issues or other obstacles.

My desire would include the following modifications to western routes:

Southwest Chief reroute to Pueblo

Sunset Limited service to both Phoenix and Las Cruces

California Zephyr service to Des Moines instead of southern IA

Coast Starlight serving Medford and Roseburg instead of Klamath Falls


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

DesertDude said:


> Thanks for the Wikipedia link, Philly Amtrak Fan!
> 
> I was thinking about this just the other day. Amtrak can't serve every town in America, but in a perfect world they could hit the "sweet spot" cities: those metro areas with at least 100-200k people and poor commercial flight options. It is quite frustrating when an existing route could serve a nearby metro (and boost ridership), but doesn't due to host RR issues or other obstacles.
> 
> My desire would include the following modifications to western routes:
> 
> Southwest Chief reroute to Pueblo
> 
> Sunset Limited service to both Phoenix and Las Cruces
> 
> California Zephyr service to Des Moines instead of southern IA
> 
> Coast Starlight serving Medford and Roseburg instead of Klamath Falls


What route(s) would you use to reroute the SL? Who owns it/them? Is there any talk about rerouting via Phoenix? How come it's been almost 20 years since the reroute away from Phoenix?


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## west point

deleted brain fart


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## Eric S

Phoenix:

The problem is that the route to/from the west is broken (not to/from the east), so that needs to be restored in order to offer either Los Angeles-Phoenix service or to reroute the Sunset Limited. Arizona has been studying Phoenix-Tucson service (but I seem to recall that the projected costs were far higher than what I would guess would garner much political support, but perhaps I'm mistaken there). If costs for PHX-TUS are more reasonable, I'd guess that would be more likely than (or would occur before) PHX-LAX.

Tulsa:

Iowa Pacific has been planning some sort of Oklahoma City-Tulsa service - I want to say that initially it is/was projected to run from suburban OKC to suburban Tulsa. At times, this has gone by the name "Eastern Flyer" (as a counterpart to the "Northern Flyer" proposal which extends the Heartland Flyer north from OKC through Wichita to Newton).

Columbus, Louisville, Dayton, Madison, Des Moines, Youngstown:

Those would all be served by various Midwest regional/corridor routes if/when the states in question get on board, so to speak.


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## Eric S

west point said:


> Columbia, SC. ?


Silver Star?


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## neroden

Phoenix: If Arizona or Phoenix were willing to spend the money, the train could be restored to Phoenix in a few months. Nobody's built on top of the rail line or anything.

Las Vegas: Xpress West.

Columbus: 3C obviously; this is really dependent on Ohio; hopefully Kasich will leave soon.

Nashville: No idea; every direction is problematic. Cooperating with Kentucky would make sense.

Louisville: Restoring the Kentucky Cardinal route (Indianapolis-Louisville) is "just" a matter of trackwork and it's operated by a shortline who would probably be willing to sell. They've been talking about a Louisville-Lexington line for ages and it could be operated as an extension. There's space at Indianapolis station. Just requires Kentucky and/or Indiana and/or the localities to have the desire and the money.

Tulsa: They've been angling for a Heartland Flyer extension or a standalone Tulsa-OKC train -- with no support from the legislature.

Knoxville: Highly speculative proposals for extension from Bristol, even more speculative ideas for a line from Nashville or Lexington.

McAllen generally gets ignored by the media in the rest of the country because it's supermajority Hispanic (77%). Same thing happens to Brownsville.

Allentown: Running to New York is "just" a matter of trackwork and buying right-of-way from NS. Running to Philadelphia is "just" a matter of getting SEPTA to revoke the trail permit and put the line back in. Strictly political obstacles, no technical obstacles.

Baton Rouge: vaguely wants a line to New Orleans, but the state isn't putting money behind it.

McAllen, TX:



> Honestly I had never heard of it until today.


McAllen is ignored by the national media due to what I can only call bigotry. The metro area is 77% Hispanic, and as a result the English-language media practically never talks about it. Brownsville has the same problem.For the same reason of bigotry, Texas state government will *actively prevent* any improvements to rail service (or any other sort of service) in McAllen. Until the demographics overwhelm them. Look at the projections for when Texas will become majority Hispanic; that's when McAllen service will start being seriously discussed. Unfortunately it still seems like it'll take a while.

Dayton OH: 3C route.

Akron OH: Best proposal is an upgrade and extension to the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic route, direct from Cleveland Tower City to Akron Northside Station.

Colorado Springs: They're fanatical anti-government-services nutters there, but the proposal is part of the Front Range line: Pueblo-Colorado Springs-Denver.

Boise: Best chance is the Pioneer and I doubt it's worth it.

Wichita: Yes, extending the Heartland Flyer to KCY or Newton which would allow a connection to the SWC.

Madison: Wants a train via Milwaukee to Chicago. Had full funding for it, until the criminal Scott Walker got elected using illegal campaign contributions.

Ogden: Served by FrontRunner, not a problem.

Des Moines: Center of the Chicago to Omaha route which is in suspeneded animation due to a stupid legislature in Iowa which refuses to put in any money.

Augusta, GA: I haven't seen *any* serious proposal. I suppose the Star could be diverted to Augusta; the tracks exist.

Scranton/Wilkes Barre, PA: Lackawanna Cutoff, yes, if they ever manage to make any progress.

Youngstown, OH: Diversion of the Cleveland-Pittsburgh route onto a route with an actual city, yes.

Chattanooga, TN: There are a number of highly speculative proposals here including lines from Bristol and from Atlanta.

Tri-Cities, TN: Bristol extension from Virginia.


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## Anderson

The Mexican Border cities suffer not only from any racial issues, but also from being a dead end (with the loss of passenger service in Mexico). The oddball exception is the occasionally mooted Monterrey-Laredo-San Antonio service.

As noted, in a few cases (Ogden, Baton Rouge, probably Akron) there either is presently or would be better service connecting those cities to Amtrak with a commuter line (as a matter of allocating resources) than you could hope to get from an Amtrak connection. In the case of Tennessee, the problem is that you've got a lot of routes which involve long, slow routings (Nashville-Louisville-Indianapolis is not quick at the moment, for example). Allentown is getting fouled up by local politics (the city wants to use the old station, which IIRC is a mess to access and/or there are missing tracks) as well as the SEPTA/NJT issues. Of course, the service would likely also be some sort of hybrid operation (not quite commuter, not quite intercity) or a commuter-esque operation. Put simply, a run from Allentown to Philly might not end up being Amtrak...

...and of course, there's also a slew of cities in Florida which could do well with service. Hopefully AAF/Brightline will slowly start taking care of that.


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## neroden

It's not particularly hard to get to the old station in Allentown. The SEPTA/NJT issues are the most serious problems.

For decades the PA state government was openly hostile to funding rail service at all, and SEPTA looked inward solely towards its local-funding counties. This has changed, but quite recently; the rail-hostile faction in the state legislature seems to have evaporated, or lost so much influence as to be unimportant, just in the last couple of years.

NJT really doesn't want to look across the border, and worse, NJT has been pretty hostile to any service extensions whatsoever. Most changes under NJT management have been service cuts, including the deletion of service to Phillipsburg in 1983. I don't see much evidence that this has changed; Monmouth-Ocean-Middlesex promoters are still waiting. This isn't really the fault of NJT per se, it's the fault of rail-hostile administrations in New Jersey. Unfortunately, the situation hasn't changed in New Jersey, which still has an extraordinarily rail-hostile administration and legislature.

The next problem has been the freight haulers (now mostly NS) who own the lines which would be needed for final access to either Bethelehem or Allentown. There's a profusion of lines in gigantic rights-of-way, but for a long time they were quite uncooperative. Nobody's checked recently though. The section which needs to deal with them is only a few miles and surely something can be worked out given money.

The most serious problem for a long time was that Allentown and Bethlehem government officials didn't want or care about rail service. This *has* been resolved.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I forgot Cho Cho Charlie had posted this about Allentown/Bethlehem (Lehigh Valley):

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66469-amtrak-coming-to-lehigh-valley-next-spring/


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## Mystic River Dragon

In addition to neroden's mention of rail-hostile administrations in New Jersey (which exist on many levels, not just the state), NJT is currently a ship without a rudder. According to local newspaper articles, the woman who took over as transportation chief after the last one "resigned" is escaping to run transit in NYC, there's a budget crisis, there's an infrastructure crisis, and there's a governor saying there's no crisis.

NJT's response has been to raise fares, cut service, and treat its passengers like trash. And some of its passengers, who throw trash on the floor, put their feet on the seats or across the aisles, and curse loudly on their phone conversations, do not make it easy for the rest of us to be taken seriously as people who deserve respect from our commuter system.

The consensus among passenger train advocates seems to be that whoever heads NJT next will be just another political appointment, and that anyone truly qualified will run as fast as possible away from applying for the position.

Frankly, the NJT situation is making Amtrak look like a paragon of perfection in comparison.

All of this would be simply the headache of those of us who live in New Jersey, except that so many trains have to go through here. I am curious as to how this mess will affect the topic of this thread--if new routes are added in PA or NY, what problems could or will the current awful state of NJT cause? Or will everything simply run west or north of NJ?


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## Alex M.

With regards to Augusta, perhaps a daytime Palmetto style service would use the Silver Star route to Columbia then over to Augusta on NS, if a physical connection could be built between those lines. Another idea would be extending the Carolinian, provided the schedule could be tightened up enough.


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## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> In addition to neroden's mention of rail-hostile administrations in New Jersey (which exist on many levels, not just the state), NJT is currently a ship without a rudder. According to local newspaper articles, the woman who took over as transportation chief after the last one "resigned" is escaping to run transit in NYC, there's a budget crisis, there's an infrastructure crisis, and there's a governor saying there's no crisis.
> 
> NJT's response has been to raise fares, cut service, and treat its passengers like trash. And some of its passengers, who throw trash on the floor, put their feet on the seats or across the aisles, and curse loudly on their phone conversations, do not make it easy for the rest of us to be taken seriously as people who deserve respect from our commuter system.
> 
> The consensus among passenger train advocates seems to be that whoever heads NJT next will be just another political appointment, and that anyone truly qualified will run as fast as possible away from applying for the position.
> 
> Frankly, the NJT situation is making Amtrak look like a paragon of perfection in comparison.
> 
> All of this would be simply the headache of those of us who live in New Jersey, except that so many trains have to go through here. I am curious as to how this mess will affect the topic of this thread--if new routes are added in PA or NY, what problems could or will the current awful state of NJT cause? Or will everything simply run west or north of NJ?


NJT will get fixed as soon as NJ folks get off their duffs and stop electing self sserving relics from the 60s as their Governor. As long as they cannot do that nothing will improve.

The Allentown test is an Amtrak affair with what I am hearing is no involvement from NJT. I am hearing that it won't even run on a single inch of NJT tracks. It will run on NS tracks from CP Hunter to Allentown over the Hunter Connection from the NEC to the Lehigh Valley Line, the same one used by NJT RVL trains. but it will then not get onto NJT tracks at Aldene but instead continue on NS through the Musconetcong Tunnel to Easton and onward. Service to Allentown can be run entirely independent of NJT. Of course things could change too.

However that is not true regarding the Lackawanna Cutoff to Scranton. There is absolutely no way to get it done without NJT's cooperation, nor is there any way to get to the NJ end of it without traversing NJT tracks, wither the Morristown or the Boonton Line to Lake Hopatcong. But NJT has been dragging its feet on constructing anything on the Cutoff. If you compute railroad construction on a miles per year basis, NJT is vying to get a special award for the lowest number and soon will require using the inches per year unit instead of miles on what they have been upto on the Andover project on the Lackawanna Cutoff.

BTW, Ronnie Hakim and the last transport Commish of NJ both left because they saw the writing on the wall of them acting as the foil for Christie's incompetence. Both are very competent people and they did not want to sacrifice their own reputation for the sake of protecting Christie's. So they went on to greener pastures. Ronnie, I have met, talked to and I found her to be quite impressive. She came from MTA and she is going back there with a big promotion. Good for her. Meanwhile Christie appears to be too busy chasing after his impossible dream of becoming the President to care about what happens to NJ or NJ Transit. Last I heard he was on a bus tour of New Hampshire trying to get his rating upto half way to double digits or something like that 

Anyway, either way for service that terminates in Pennsylvania, PennDOT or the PA counties will have to take the lead. They could contract out the running of the service to NJT like Metr-North does with their west of Hudson service. But beyond that NJT has typically not been allowed to do anything outside the state except running trains into Philly and New York by mostly the Democrats dominated legislature, who by the way, themselves are not great paragons of virtue when it comes to supporting NJT in a credible way. They behave with NJT almost exactly like the US Congress behaves with Amtrak. No one seems to have the guts to do the obvious that many Republican governed states have done, which is to raise the gas tax, and NJ residents live in the la la land opposing such hoping that the tooth fairy will come and fix their infrastructure. Well they are bout to discover the lack of existence of such one more time.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, jis--very detailed and informative response, as always. 

The opposition to raising the gas tax here is unbelievable, bolstered by a new bunch of huge, gas-guzzling pickup trucks showing up on the streets of my small town and others like it (the trucks are bigger than some of the houses). Plus, here in South Jersey, those of us who commute by train are considered to be trash, even if we are professionals with better education and careers than those criticizing us. Before anything else can change, the mindset has to change, and I'm not sure how to even start on that.


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## Bob Dylan

I feel your pain Patty! Is there anyway you can move out of Jersey and commute from PA.Delaware or NY to your job?

Lots of our members that are from Jersey have been able to move ( some to Florida which I know you like!)

away from the Fat Man's Swamp!!


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## neroden

jis said:


> NJT will get fixed as soon as NJ folks get off their duffs and stop electing self sserving relics from the 60s as their Governor. As long as they cannot do that nothing will improve.


Yeah. I really don't understand what's going on with the electorate in New Jersey (and this predates Christie by at least three governors). I kind of get Long Island and Staten Island (where the prevailing political mood is ME ME ME), but New Jersey baffles me. Do you know that, at least until recently the Confederate battle flag was really popular in South Jersey? A *UNION STATE*? What happened?

The Jersey refusal to raise the gas tax is famous nationwide. And it is *bizarre*. The only state with lower gas taxes is *Alaska*. New Jersey doesn't even produce significant amounts of oil! There are three oil refineries left, but that's a lot less than most of the oil states. Driving in New Jersey is permanently horrendous due to traffic so it's not like cheap gas makes it easier to get around.

How does the most urbanized state in the Union have such an anti-urban attitude?


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## CCC1007

Three refineries? Here in Montana we have three in billings and one in great falls. How do we have more?


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## Bob Dylan

CCC1007 said:


> Three refineries? Here in Montana we have three in billings and one in great falls. How do we have more?


That many huh? Texas and Louisiana have way too many, do ya'll want some?


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## WoodyinNYC

Anderson said:


> These Mexican Border cities suffer not only from any racial issues, but also from being a dead end (with the loss of passenger service in Mexico). ...


McAllen and Brownsville are two leading cities among a 100 or so municipalities in the populous region Texans call "the Valley", the counties along the lower end of the Rio Grande before it meets the Gulf of Mexico. Traditionally, irrigated farms produced lush crops -- using lots of very poorly paid Mexican-American farm labor. Well, they still do, tho many farms have been converted to subdivisions. But the "very poorly paid" part is as true as ever, causing low average per capita income. That would not help passenger rail succeed.

On the other hand, the Valley is almost as far south as Miami, with a balmy climate. During the winter it attracts a large number of migratory "snow birds" from Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the Dakotas. Some of them eventually settle year-round in the Valley. But even these Anglo retirees lack clout in Austin.

So improbably, there might be a good market for travelers between the Valley and "back home", if a route were ever started to the west of the _Eagle _and then overlapping it. A train could go, say, St Paul-Omaha-Kansas City-Okla City-Ft Worth-San Antonio-the Valley. But a decade from now such a dream route will remain merely a line on a map of wishes.

As for a state-supported corridor train to the Valley, nah. Nobody in Texas is even talking about corridor service linking San Antonio to Houston, two cities with populations well above a million each, only 220 miles apart. So nobody is going to push a train down to McAllen, nobody.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Bob Dylan said:


> I feel your pain Patty! Is there anyway you can move out of Jersey and commute from PA.Delaware or NY to your job?
> 
> Lots of our members that are from Jersey have been able to move ( some to Florida which I know you like!)
> 
> away from the Fat Man's Swamp!!


JIm--I'm not quite ready to move just yet. I actually do like my little town, and I have some good friends here. Also, it is one of the few walkable towns in NJ, it has a lot of Colonial history (almost as much as Philly, but nobody ever thought to market it), as well as some good restaurants, and for us dog lovers, almost every home has a dog whose person walks them around town.  And the absolutely best thing is that I can hop on the light rail and get out of town whenever I want! 

My apologies to all--once again, I have dithered off-topic.  I guess the main points about New Jersey for this thread are that it can't pretend it's an island--it has to share the responsibility for train transportation and infrastructure with neighboring states. The other problem is that the train advocacy community in the state seems scattered (partly because of the north/south divide, which is always there, if not always obvious). Until I read an article in the local paper about NJT, I hadn't heard of a couple of the advocacy groups mentioned (and I follow rail closer than the average citizen).


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## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> My apologies to all--once again, I have dithered off-topic.  I guess the main points about New Jersey for this thread are that it can't pretend it's an island--it has to share the responsibility for train transportation and infrastructure with neighboring states. The other problem is that the train advocacy community in the state seems scattered (partly because of the north/south divide, which is always there, if not always obvious). Until I read an article in the local paper about NJT, I hadn't heard of a couple of the advocacy groups mentioned (and I follow rail closer than the average citizen).


There are only two rail advocacy groups active in South Jersey - DVARP and NJ-ARP, the former being more active than the latter in South Jersey.. South Jersey also has a problem of being somewhat of a wannabe at being more southern than the deep south. For example, I find south Florida to be less southern than South Jersey, much to my pleasant surprise! 

In North Jersey there are several groups that are Jersey-centric and one or two New York City groups occasionally spill over into Jersey. The Jersey ones are NJ-ARP, Lackawanna Coalition, Raritan Valley Coalition, and an on again off again Jersey Shore outfit, which these days is off again. The primary spillover is TSTC. Of these only NJ-ARP and Lackawanna Coalition have any visibility in Trenton and at NJT and PANYNJ Board Meetings. Both NJ-ARP and DVARP are NARP affiliates, but independent of NARP as far as governance is concerned. But as I said, nothing will happen in NJ until the current Governor exits stage right. His incompetence is legendary (with the state legislature not too far behind I might add), as far as the overall management of the transportation infrastructure of the state is concerned.


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## Bob Dylan

Sounds like you're in one of the "nice" Jersey Towns of which there are many,☺ but the Government and the Mob have basically made a mess out of the state and y'all pay for that!


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## Seaboard92

I'll comment on the Augusta service. While I would love to see it I don't see it as a SC service. I see it more as a Atlanta-Augusta service. I actually could see a Atlanta-Augusta-Columbia-Raleigh service being easier to pull off. But one issue everyone forgets is where the columbia station is. A new connection would be needed in Fairwold or a backup move from Devine junction.


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## WoodyinNYC

Seaboard92 said:


> ... I actually could see a Atlanta-Augusta-Columbia-Raleigh service being easier to pull off. But one issue everyone forgets is where the Columbia station is. A new connection would be needed in Fairwold or a backup move from Devine junction.


The PRIIA study looked at taking a train NEC-*Charlotte-Columbia-Charleston*-Savannah-points south. They remembered where the station is. One set of tracks carries the _Silver Star_. Another set of tracks would bring any trains from Charlotte. So you'd have two Amtrak stations, and you still couldn't get there from here. LOL.

Someone needs to spend big money to connect the tracks of the rival freight lines, so Amtrak can move from one to another to get where it's going, and stop at only one station to get there. Until then don't expect added service for Columbia, tho population and ridership figures suggest it's a ripe market for more Amtrak.


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## Seaboard92

My recommendation is to use the current station. Build the connection that was proposed way back in the Seaboard days at Fairworld from the NS R line to the CSX S line and abandon the R line from there on into columbia. Benefits to that routing it is mostly grade separated south of Fairwold. Plus it would eliminate the thru traffic in the middle of the USC campus. Granted the R line would still get local service for sure. But before columbia gets more service we need an updated station. It's current location isn't bad. But locating on the other side of Blossom would be better as one could place a platform for the current star and the NS r line to Augusta and SC line to Charleston. But it still needs a connection in Fairwold


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## WoodyinNYC

Seaboard92 said:


> My recommendation is to ... Build the connection that was proposed way back in the Seaboard days at Fairworld from the NS R line to the CSX S line and abandon the R line from there on into Columbia. ... mostly grade separated south of Fairwold. ... an updated station... on the other side of Blossom would be better ... a platform for the current Star and the NS R line to Augusta and SC line to Charleston. But it still needs a connection in Fairwold.


O.K. But before we can even put this on 2020s wish list, what's the ballpark cost of such a connection at Fairwold? And a new station? The PRIIA study didn't even guess a figure, iirc. Are we talking something that a $25 million TIGER grant could make happen, or is it gonna be a lot more? Like another Stimulus-level windfall (it could happen) needed for more and better service at Columbia?

(When you say "abandon the R line into Columbia," you meant Amtrak only abandon it? Or also NS to get them out of the campus LOL? If it means sharing tracks with CS, that could mean double-tracking the segment, good for Amtrak, but not cheap for NS or CSX.)


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## Seaboard92

I'll have to ask around for the guy who gave me the quote for the connection. I think a 25 million TIGER Grant could do the connection. But I'm not sure about a new station. The developers have been taking over that side of town for apartments. So the land cost has skyrocketed. That or rebuilding the current station by enlarging it. The fairwold connection would make the new station central. And by abandon the R line I we it as completely abandoning the R line from Fairwold to Divine Junction. It'll help USC by getting the trains out of campus. Except for two to three local customers on train P85.


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## WoodyinNYC

No need to rush yourself, alas. This is how things will unfold:

In NC, Stimulus round of upgrades completed by mid-2017 and 2 _Piedmont_ frequencies added. Ridership on this Raleigh-Charlotte line will double.

In VA, work will begin on more projects to cut trip time D.C.-Richmond, now ~2 hrs 15 min to less than 2 hrs, closer to 1 hr 30 min. -- the new Potomac Long Bridge and various upgrades south to Richmond. The new bridge will allow more slots for passenger trains. Two more _Regionals_ extended to Norfolk. Ridership from Norfolk will triple. A second train to Lynchburg will be added. The _Cardinal _goes daily, adding 4 trains a week D.C.-Charlottesville.

In NC and VA, work will begin on restoring the shortcut Raleigh-Petersburg. Probably later before work begins Richmond-Petersburg, due to expense. Six trains begin running Richmond-Raleigh, with one or more continuing to Charlotte.

Someone in SC notices and says, "They have all those nice trains in NC and VA, why can't we have nice things too?" Planners will be assigned to do stuff so that politicians can say, "We're working on it."

Planners come up with ideas, like, A train connecting Charlotte-Columbia-Charleston-Savannah. Which will require a connection at Fairwold north of Columbia. Costly demolition of newly constructed buildings in the proposed right of way will delay implementation.

By the time SC gets a regular train of its own, California could be replacing its old HSR line with Maglev. LOL.

But don't give up. As sea levels continue to rise, refugees from Miami-Ft Lauderdale could relocate to SC and change the state's voting complexion. Or something. You just never know what could happen.


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## neroden

Demographically, I expect the South Florida refugees will stay well away from South Carolina. A bunch will head to North Florida; the rest will probably spread all over the country since I don't see any obvious strong cultural links to any other part of the country. Actually there will probably be an influx to NYC. Those who want to stay in warm weather may head for the Gulf Coast, or even Arizona or California...


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## jis

Also, NC is more likely to get overrun by refugees er retirees from the Northeast way before anything happens to South Florida. It is a popular retirement destination from the Northeast, and that of course bodes well for Carolinas Amtrak service in the coming years.

But what the heck does this have to do with Largest Metros without Amtrak service. All the large Metros in Florida and Carolinas appear to already have Amtrak service. And in Florida in combination with AAF and local commuter services many of the not so large metros will progressively get credible passenger rail service. Only outlayers will be in the area between Northwest and West Central Florida assuming the NOL: - JAX service materializes to cover the likes of the Florida state capital, which isn't really that large a city. Only places like Ocala and Gainesville will get left out at the end of the day.

In North Carolina if NCDOT has its way, several second tier cities willg et rail service eventually. I suppose not much will change in South Carolina or Georgia any time soon.


----------



## west point

There are several metro locations in Georgia that have no service. In no particular order. The Chattanooga, TN. area of Georgia is very fast growing. Augusta has already been mentioned. Macon, GA well somewhat small.

Columbus, GA is smaller than others but the fastest growing due to the monster Ft. Benning military reservation being expanded both in more personnel and area.

There are over 2 bus loads of personnel per hour traveling between Ft. Benning and ATL.

An ATL airport station to Columbus will be very easy to build as tracks go under one of the airport's free people movers.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> But what the heck does this have to do with Largest Metros without Amtrak service.


If you're going to assume the position as hallway monitor, try to be more consistent. 

In Post #21, you discuss "There are only two rail advocacy groups active in South Jersey - DVARP and NJ-ARP ..."

And what the heck does that have to do with Largest Metros without Amtrak service? LOL.

But Columbia got mentioned Post #12 by Alex M.



> With regards to Augusta, perhaps a daytime Palmetto style service would use the Silver Star route to Columbia then over to Augusta on NS, if a physical connection could be built between those lines. Another idea would be extending the Carolinian, provided the schedule could be tightened up enough.


Then Seabord92 responded with remarks about Columbia and a needed physical connection. I responded to him with the PRIAA report, and back and forth.

Discussion of potential added service in or around Augusta, Columbia, Charleston, Savannah, Atlanta, Charlotte etc. seems appropriate for a broad reading of this thread. If your inner wanna-be hall monitor feels otherwise, well, such is life. Perhaps less coffee to start the day?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.

"Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"

So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?

How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...

"Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.
> 
> "Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"


How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I can't guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Devil's Advocate said:


> So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"


Well, in places like Augusta, Macon, Savannah, Charleston, Columbia, and Florence you'd get Obama-like votes from the black population, like 90% in favor of more Amtrak. But the white people don't care so much about trains, and some of them rightly suspect that even more black people might ride the trains if there were more. So the Dixie-mind majority of the white majority -- it may be a minority of the total but Hastert Rule applies here -- is against more trains.

But if trains were started to connect Atlanta-Augusta-Savannah or Atlanta-Macon-Savannah or Atlanta-Macon-Waycross-Jacksonville, or Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham-Huntsville they'd have plenty of riders.

That said, I'd put my money first on South of the Lake (east of CHI-Detroit and CHI-Cleveland and on Long Bridge-south of the Potomac-Richmond-Raleigh, where the white folks and their state governments are more supportive of Amtrak.


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what the heck does this have to do with Largest Metros without Amtrak service.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're going to assume the position as hallway monitor, try to be more consistent.
> In Post #21, you discuss "There are only two rail advocacy groups active in South Jersey - DVARP and NJ-ARP ..."
> 
> And what the heck does that have to do with Largest Metros without Amtrak service? LOL.
Click to expand...

It would be _completely inappropriate_ to be consistent in an _Amtrak forum_, don't you think, given how inconsistent Amtrak is in everything that it does?  Juuust kidding!  We meander and occasionally someone remembers that we meandered. that is the tradition around here, so I suggest you get used to it. 



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.
Click to expand...

Our motto here is to figure out how to force feed Amtrak to everyone using someone else's money, whether they want it or not  But it sure is fun to figure out how to do it should money become available and should someone actually want to ride the darned thing. Guaranteeing that some people will ride a train does not even take a survey, and it is impossible to guarantee that no one will ride. But that is a totally silly argument to start with.

The issue always is whether enough people in the communities served collectively be willing to pay the cost or at least a significant part of it through fares and other means, so as to make it worthwhile to put in some money from the general pot to help them get it. If the local community refuses to have any stake in the game then it then the venture becomes somewhat questionable. And there always will be NIMBYs who confuse the issue by being disproportionately loud in their opposition based often on spurious reasons.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.
> 
> "Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.
Click to expand...

So what actual proof do you have to back up your guarantee?

My own city modified our charter to prevent any rail based passenger service from using public funds or public land unless majority approved by a citywide vote ahead of time. Non-rail passenger services are exempted from this uniquely punitive restriction. Numerous other cities and states have elected staunchly anti-rail politicians to represent their interests. Even if the people who voted for such officials secretly want more passenger rail it's not worth fighting their silly bipolar battles for them. Better to spend that time and money matching funds and effort from staunchly pro-rail areas instead.


----------



## jis

I agree with you DA. That is the reason that I view threads like this one to be "what if" fantasies to some extent. Fortunately, that is the nature of half of the stuff that we yammer on about in this forum. So I don't see any problem with some more of the starry eyed fantasies spewing forth.

OTOH, if things suddenly change then the ideas batted around as fantasies may become of some use provided the fantasies were not totally disconnected from physical (as opposed to political) realities. As long as people understand that I see no harm in playing these "what if" scenarios. It is when people go off into la-la land taking effusively of Hyperloop from NY to San Fran, when I at least, lose interest.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I am looking for brainstorming/suggestions on how to introduce/re-introduce Amtrak to the largest metro areas that do not have service.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_cities_in_U.S._lacking_Amtrak_service#cite_note-4
> 
> Nashville:
> 
> You could probably go in several directions:
> 
> a) to IND/CHI via Louisville (which would take care of Louisville as well),
> 
> b) to ATL,
> 
> c) to Va/WAS via Knoxville? (WoodyInNYC suggested it: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66173-fiscally-constrained-system-vision/?p=632976, http://clevelandbanner.com/stories/amtrak-linethrough-areagets-new-look,13181
> 
> d) to Memphis?
> 
> Maybe you can have a CHI-ATL train through Nashville. But I'm not aware of any practical routes.
> 
> Louisville:
> 
> You could go to IND/CHI or to CIN. Perhaps you can combine with Nashville. ...
> 
> Knoxville:
> 
> ...
> 
> Chattanooga, TN:
> 
> ...
> 
> Tri-Cities, TN:
> 
> ...


Read it carefully. I suggested that it appears that Virginia is looking beyond Roanoke to a route that ultimately would link Norfolk-Richmond-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol (Tri-Cities)-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta. (No mention of Nashville.) I got beat up: Bad tracks. Steep hills. Slow times in historic past. But that route remains my fearless forecast for 10 or 15 years from now. Mostly because, when Virginia makes a rail plan, they stick to the plan and get it done.

But Nashville-Knoxville is a non-starter. When I look at railroad maps online, you can't get there from here.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ... how to introduce/re-introduce Amtrak to the largest metro areas that do not have service.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_cities_in_U.S._lacking_Amtrak_service#cite_note-4
> 
> Nashville:
> 
> You could probably go in several directions:
> 
> a) to IND/CHI via Louisville (which would take care of Louisville as well),
> 
> b) to ATL,
> 
> c) ...
> 
> Maybe you can have a CHI-ATL train through Nashville. But I'm not aware of any practical routes.
> 
> Louisville:
> 
> You could go to IND/CHI or to CIN. Perhaps you can combine with Nashville. ...
> 
> Knoxville:
> 
> ...
> 
> Chattanooga, TN:
> 
> ...
> 
> Tri-Cities, TN:
> 
> ...


The Tennessee paper also reported a potential route that would intersect with that Virginia train at Knoxville, providing a second frequency on the Knoxville-Chattanooga corridor. It would run beyond-Louisville-Frankfurt-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-beyond. (At one end "beyond" means Indianapolis-Chicago, at the other it probably means Florida.)

There's politics involved when Kentucky officials talk about a train from Louisville to Atlanta without mentioning Indianapolis and Chicago: They're Yankees, you know. In the same way, not everyone in Tennessee would think a train from Nashville to Chicago would be a good thing. LOL. But that's how it would go: Nashville-Bowling Green-Louisville-Indianapolis-Chicago.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ... how to introduce/re-introduce Amtrak to the largest metro areas that do not have service.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_cities_in_U.S._lacking_Amtrak_service#cite_note-4
> 
> Nashville:
> 
> You could probably go in several directions:
> 
> a) to IND/CHI via Louisville (which would take care of Louisville as well),
> 
> b) to ATL,
> 
> c) ...
> 
> Maybe you can have a CHI-ATL train through Nashville. But I'm not aware of any practical routes.
> 
> Louisville:
> 
> You could go to IND/CHI or to CIN. Perhaps you can combine with Nashville. ...
> 
> ...


That's how it would go: Nashville-Bowling Green-Louisville-*Indianapolis*-Chicago.

*Indianapolis *is so badly served by Amtrak that it deserves a mention here. The segment Indianapolis-Chicago is the ******* child of passenger rail city pairs. Nearby, with large populations, strong business links, connections at Chicago to the national system. The route was part of the Midwest HSR plans. But, it happens.

Now the poor _Cardinal _runs only 3 times a week, a schedule designed to fail. Then the state of Indiana more or less pays for the _Hoosier State_ for the other 4 days of the week. The route is convoluted and congested and *most of all slow*. A study for the Dept of Highways was lacking stuff, but concluded that *half an hour could easily be cut *from the trip time by upgrading the tracks within Indiana alone (not including any future upgrades in Illinois).

So about $250 million for two long sidings and rehab of the existing tracks to get trains from Indy into Chicago half an hour earlier. Adding another departure or two on the corridor could get riders home from the business trip by bedtime.

Indiana is not gonna invest $250 million. It would need a large federal match before any such thing could happen. But get a daily _Cardinal_, two more corridor trains Indy-CHI (as per the Dept of Highways study), a train Nashville-Louisville-Indy-CHI and another ATL-Knoxville-Louisville-Indy-CHI, and perhaps one or two Cincy-Indy-CHI, and this corridor would really hum.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.
> 
> "Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what actual proof do you have to back up your guarantee?
> 
> My own city modified our charter to prevent any rail based passenger service from using public funds or public land unless majority approved by a citywide vote ahead of time. Non-rail passenger services are exempted from this uniquely punitive restriction. Numerous other cities and states have elected staunchly anti-rail politicians to represent their interests. Even if the people who voted for such officials secretly want more passenger rail it's not worth fighting their silly bipolar battles for them. Better to spend that time and money matching funds and effort from staunchly pro-rail areas instead.
Click to expand...

Forgot to say "can't" guarantee.


----------



## west point

If those 2 sidings could be built arrivals in CHI could be guaranteed if the CHI mess can be mitigated. During this past few days around Christmas 51 & 851 have arrived CUS over 30 minutes early


----------



## neroden

Speaking of whether cities want Amtrak service, I've seen very strong indications that the border cities on the Rio Grande (Brownsville and McAllen) would love to have Amtrak service. I also see every indication that the state government will do whatever it can to make sure they don't get it. Or any other public services.

It can be interesting to analyze the politics of these locations. It's obvious that more populous metro areas have more potential for train service (more passengers), so it's interesting to try to figure out the dynamics which are preventing train service in some of these places.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

> Amtrak-less markets with 500,000 or more people:
> 
> Phoenix:
> 
> Is a return to the old route practical? How about a separate train from LAX to Phoenix?


This is the biggest, but probably the hardest to fix.

First get daily service on the _Sunset Ltd _or _Texas Eagle _or _whatever it will be called_ when it's done. That move will double ridership, and that fact alone will make a compelling case for further investment. The PRIIA study suggested that the Phoenix market would be helped the most by daily service. With the current 3-days-a-week plan, no shuttle bus or limo service connecting Mariposa to the cluster of cities that comprise the market can make money. (What are they supposed to do with the vehicles and drivers the other 4 days a week?) So it doesn't happen. With 7-days-a-week operations, they could make money just like they do serving the airport.

One big step toward the daily service got a big boost in the past round of TIGER grants. The present station at Maricopa has short platforms, so the _Sunset _has to stop twice to unload and load passengers. Meanwhile, it blocks one of the town's main streets during the morning rush hour. That level crossing will be replaced by a grade-separated crossing. The station will be moved down the way a bit, to get its own track. This move will allow the UP's freights to pass while the _Sunset_ is in the station. Everyone will win.

The sad history of service to Phoenix you can research on Wikipedia. Basically, an Amtrak train was sabotaged and crashed into an arroyo, in what may have been domestic terrorism, or perhaps an act disgruntled crazy employee. The authorities claim not to know, or not to have a provable case, so the public does not know who or why. Not too long after the derailment, the UP decided to move its main line out of the heart of Phoenix, to the bypass thru exurban Maricopa.

To return service to downtown Phoenix -- a city with a growing population and a growing light rail system -- would require rebuilding the tracks on the old right of way. Not easy, and not cheap. Maybe one day a commuter line could be put on part of the route to share the costs of rehab and operation. But not cheap and not soon.

There's been a lot of talk about a state-supported corridor between the largest cities: Tucson-Phoenix. But the other day I stumbled onto a link from the FRA page to a recent study of that route, with a rough estimate of *$4.7 Billion* to build it. Let me repeat that: An estimated $4.7 Billion for about 120 miles. 

Meanwhile the proposed South of the Lake upgrades, from CHI to the already upgraded Michigan corridors, has a rough estimate of $2.5 Billion. The St Louis-CHI route has used $1 Billion for the first stage, another Billion or Two is needed for the second stage. Nobody in the Midwest is talking $4.7 Billion. 

Well, O.K., the SEHSR route D.C.-Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh night get close to that figure, with the new Long Bridge over the Potomac, urban congestion, and a lot of rebuilt track. But how does Arizona claim $4.7 Billion for 120 miles when most of it is open desert? Anyway, putting out a number like that kills enthusiasm for Tucson-Phoenix, much less Tucson-L.A. (about 500 miles).

++++++++++++++++++++

btw Maricopa is the textbook example of the importance of close-in stations, or not. Ridership at the smaller city of Tucson, with a city center station, was 28,700 last year. Meanwhile exurban Maricopa, standing in for Phoenix, gathered only 12,100 passengers.


----------



## neroden

Arizona routinely sandbags studies of train service by pretending that they'll cost far more than they actually will. If one of them gets approved anyway, expect it to come in under budget (as the Phoenix Light Rail did).


----------



## Chicoan

DesertDude said:


> Thanks for the Wikipedia link, Philly Amtrak Fan!
> 
> I was thinking about this just the other day. Amtrak can't serve every town in America, but in a perfect world they could hit the "sweet spot" cities: those metro areas with at least 100-200k people and poor commercial flight options. It is quite frustrating when an existing route could serve a nearby metro (and boost ridership), but doesn't due to host RR issues or other obstacles.
> 
> My desire would include the following modifications to western routes:
> 
> Southwest Chief reroute to Pueblo
> 
> Sunset Limited service to both Phoenix and Las Cruces
> 
> California Zephyr service to Des Moines instead of southern IA
> 
> Coast Starlight serving Medford and Roseburg instead of Klamath Falls


Regarding Medford/Ashland -- There are still tracks over the very significant pass between Northern California and Southern Oregon (Ashland). In fact as per this article in the local paper, freight service was recently restored, though the line gets limited use. Another hopeful idea might be to extend Cascades incrementally south from Eugene. http://www.dailytidings.com/article/20150519/NEWS/150519795


----------



## neroden

If Oregon ever wanted to put in real money (sigh) a reroute over the Medford route would be very successful. Klamath Falls is no loss. The Medford route needs a lot of money to bring it up to decent speeds, though, and I just don't see Oregon putting in the money in the next decade or two.


----------



## John Bredin

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.
> 
> "Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?
> 
> How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...
> 
> "Largest Metros That *Want* New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I can't guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.
Click to expand...

Beyond (as *Philly Amtrak Fan* says) confusing the different ideas of political will and ridership demand, which ignores all the vagaries that come with the former,* arguing that "they don't want it" ignores that trains run in both directions :giggle: and maybe, just maybe, people in cities with Amtrak service want to be able to go to Las Vegas, Nashville, Madison, etc. by train.

*For example, Madison as a city & metro area quite wanted Amtrak service, the extension of the successful and relatively frequent Hiawatha service at mostly Federal expense. Scott Walker overruled them. :angry2:


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I (and others) had previous ideas about a 3-C train to serve Columbus and Dayton. Then if the train gets extended between Cincinnati to Louisville and Nashville you would serve four new markets with one train. To make it eligible for federal funding you'd have to extend it to 750 miles. You can go from Cleveland to New York via the LSL route and make it the "Music City Limited". But you'd have nowhere to service an LD train in Nashville. One idea would be to also extend it south to New Orleans along the old Louisville & Nashville Humming Bird Train: http://www.american-rails.com/humming-bird.html. That would give Amtrak a 2nd NYP-NOL train but serving Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee instead of the Crescent route and if you use the Humming Bird you also pick up Montgomery and Mobile.

Does Amtrak need a 2nd NYP-NOL route? If not, this could become a new NYP-Texas train. You could extend this train to HOS-SAS (now we're looking at a near 2000 mile train?). Or instead of going to NOL go from Birmingham to Meridian and across the Meridian Speedway to Dallas.

Using the proposed Cincinnati section of the LSL (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf), that would be about 19 hrs between NYP-CIN. CIN-Birmingham (old Humming Bird schedule) would be another 13 hrs. If you did Birmingham-NOL (Crescent) you get 7.5 hrs and NOL-SAS (SL) is 15 hrs. So that adds up to 54.5 hrs (assuming you can run on the HB schedule)! If you did Birmingham-Meridian alone it would be 3 hours and if you use the Thruway Bus schedule it would be 10-11 hrs. That would be about 46 hours NYP-DAL. I'd have to play around with the schedule but my initial though would be overnight through upper New York State with the second overnight south of Nashville.


----------



## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> One idea would be to also extend it south to New Orleans along the old Louisville & Nashville Humming Bird Train: http://www.american-rails.com/humming-bird.html. That would give Amtrak a 2nd NYP-NOL train but serving Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee instead of the Crescent route and if you use the Humming Bird you also pick up Montgomery and Mobile.
> 
> Does Amtrak need a 2nd NYP-NOL route?


Just for the sake of argument, we need to avoid the trap of an endpoint mentality anyway, because relatively few passengers travel the entire distance. Two trains on mostly or completely different routes, even between the same origin and destination, serve two different markets and complement rather than compete with each other (for instance, _Cardinal_ and _Lake Shore Limited_, New York to Chicago).


----------



## LookingGlassTie

I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there. From what I can tell, there are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally): Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

LookingGlassTie said:


> I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there. From what I can tell, there are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally): Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


The Carolinian is out since it's a state funded train and why would North Carolina pay to extend a train to Georgia (and if they did, Atlanta would be the more popular destination although it's a mess down there).

How would you reroute one of the Silvers or the Palmetto to serve Augusta?


----------



## jis

Palmetto and Silver Meteor are completely out of the question. Theoretically Silver Star is a possibility, but it would probably require adding another several hours to its already excrutiatingly long itinerary, if possible at all on the routing Columbia - Augusta - Savannah


----------



## LookingGlassTie

That all makes sense. Being a newbie still, I know very little about the logistics of train routings and all the implications of such.

Which is one reason why I joined this forum, to learn more about the inner workings of rail travel...............


----------



## jphjaxfl

LookingGlassTie said:


> I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there. From what I can tell, therre are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally): Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


Augusta had a beautiful Union Station that has been torn down that was well served by trains into the mid 1960s. Atlantic Coast Line later Seaboard Coast Line ran trains to Augusta with through car from New York. Georgia Railroad ran trains from Augusta to Atlanta and included through cars from ACL from New York. Southern ran the Augusta Special to Augusta with the through Sleeping cars from New York. The Georgia Railroad did not join Amtrak and continued to operate their mixed train from Augusta to Atlanta, though the train departed from the freight yards in both cities. Today there is very little evidence existing in Augusta to show passenger trains ever served the city. So Georgia would need to provide some funding for the service and the City of Augusta would need to provide some infrastructure for what was demolished. That is very likely not going to happen.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jphjaxfl said:


> LookingGlassTie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there. From what I can tell, therre are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally): Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.
> 
> 
> 
> Augusta had a beautiful Union Station that has been torn down that was well served by trains into the mid 1960s. Atlantic Coast Line later Seaboard Coast Line ran trains to Augusta with through car from New York. Georgia Railroad ran trains from Augusta to Atlanta and included through cars from ACL from New York. Southern ran the Augusta Special to Augusta with the through Sleeping cars from New York. The Georgia Railroad did not join Amtrak and continued to operate their mixed train from Augusta to Atlanta, though the train departed from the freight yards in both cities. Today there is very little evidence existing in Augusta to show passenger trains ever served the city. So Georgia would need to provide some funding for the service and the City of Augusta would need to provide some infrastructure for what was demolished. That is very likely not going to happen.
Click to expand...

My family moved for Augusta to Delaware in '67 and my mom, 2 sisters, 1 dog & 1 cat took the train. Wish I could remember the station, but being 11 at the time, I only have vague memories of the trip. But I'm sure it planted the seed to want to travel by train again (and again and again....)


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## Seaboard92

Could service a train in Nashville fairly easy. All you would need is to lease space in the Tennessee Central Railway Museums coach yard. It has HEP ground plugs and a decent platform. I'm sure they would welcome the income.


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## WICT106

We also have to keep in mind that, for large areas of the United States. the citizens have virtually no experience riding trains on a regular basis. With that in mind, it is no surprise when the average citizen sees no value, and no point, in spending money for something that passes through his or her town at the small hours of the night, and only once per day each way ( if they even have service at all ), and is not able to come up with a readily acceptable & available reason that people will ride a train. As we attempt to grow and expand the network, we, as advocates and passengers, have to be able to explain why folks will use a train to those who are accustomed to driving everywhere.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

WICT106 said:


> We also have to keep in mind that, for large areas of the United States. the citizens have virtually no experience riding trains on a regular basis. With that in mind, it is no surprise when the average citizen sees no value, and no point, in spending money for something that passes through his or her town at the small hours of the night, and only once per day each way ( if they even have service at all ), and is not able to come up with a readily acceptable & available reason that people will ride a train. As we attempt to grow and expand the network, we, as advocates and passengers, have to be able to explain why folks will use a train to those who are accustomed to driving everywhere.


For that reason, I would recommend any new stations/areas should be scheduled outside the graveyard shift to give them a better chance of success. Schedule the graveyard shift for areas that already have other trains available.


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## jis

Yup. Have all the LD trains arrive and depart New York between 11pm and 4am.  That should fix all the problems


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## ScouseAndy

Of all the cities to catch an early hours of the morning/middle of the night train NY would be amongst my most preferred- given the option of a station in the centre of a city which never sleeps or an Amshack shelter in the middle of no where I'm sure most would agree, a further positive is less likely hood of congestion caused by commuter services. Adelaide, Australia and Moscow actually insist the majority of LD services depart/arrive at the dead of night to some extent IIRC


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## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> WICT106 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also have to keep in mind that, for large areas of the United States. the citizens have virtually no experience riding trains on a regular basis. With that in mind, it is no surprise when the average citizen sees no value, and no point, in spending money for something that passes through his or her town at the small hours of the night, and only once per day each way ( if they even have service at all ), and is not able to come up with a readily acceptable & available reason that people will ride a train. As we attempt to grow and expand the network, we, as advocates and passengers, have to be able to explain why folks will use a train to those who are accustomed to driving everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> For that reason, I would recommend any new stations/areas should be scheduled outside the graveyard shift to give them a better chance of success. Schedule the graveyard shift for areas that already have other trains available.
Click to expand...

For a schedule longer than 16-18 hours, _somebody_ by definition _has_ to be served during the overnight hours. The proper solution is, of course, more than one train a day on most long distance routes (which practice has shown to benefit the economics and patronage of both trains), so that nearly every destination is served at "marketable" times. I fully realize how very far we are from that ideal when there are still two trains which don't even run daily, but even to an (at best) lukewarm Congress with varied agendas, such a growth strategy has merit.


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## neroden

jis said:


> Yup. Have all the LD trains arrive and depart New York between 11pm and 4am.  That should fix all the problems


Not as bad an idea as you think. New York is the "city that never sleeps". And hotel prices are astronomical.

If you adjusted it to midnight to 5 AM, I know several people who would take the train down, arrive at 5 AM, spend a full day in NY, and leave at midnight very happy.

Heck, I'd take that train overnight from upstate NY.


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## jis

I think it is a good idea to have such a train as the second train on a route. I suspect you will lose ridership if it is the first and only train on the route. Just a guess though.


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## Devil's Advocate

neroden said:


> New York is the "city that never sleeps".


I hear this all the time but it always strikes me a little odd. Most of New York seems to sleep just fine. Yeah there's a late night bar and club scene but 99% of what I want to see and do in New York begins and ends at similar times as any other large city. Same with London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Closest I ever saw to a city that never slept was Bangkok. Then they started passing laws and sending out police teams to literally force businesses to close after a certain time. If there's a city that still doesn't sleep in 2016 I've yet to find it.


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## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> New York is the "city that never sleeps".
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this all the time but it always strikes me a little odd. Most of New York seems to sleep just fine. Yeah there's a late night bar and club scene but 99% of what I want to see and do in New York begins and ends at similar times as any other large city. Same with London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Closest I ever saw to a city that never slept was Bangkok. Then they started passing laws and sending out police teams to literally force businesses to close after a certain time. If there's a city that still doesn't sleep in 2016 I've yet to find it.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is just much hype about New York when compared to many other cities in the world. Of course, in the US where most cities don;t even have a lively downtown during daytime, it is quite a novelty.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> New York is the "city that never sleeps".
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this all the time but it always strikes me a little odd. Most of New York seems to sleep just fine. Yeah there's a late night bar and club scene but 99% of what I want to see and do in New York begins and ends at similar times as any other large city. Same with London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Closest I ever saw to a city that never slept was Bangkok. Then they started passing laws and sending out police teams to literally force businesses to close after a certain time. If there's a city that still doesn't sleep in 2016 I've yet to find it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. It is just much hype about New York when compared to many other cities in the world. Of course, in the US where most cities don;t even have a lively downtown during daytime, it is quite a novelty.
Click to expand...

The city where I live starts winding down at 9:30PM and most establishments have closed completely by 10PM. Even full service bars generally start wrapping up around midnight. If I had to name a US city that came closest to never sleeping I'd probably put Las Vegas ahead of New York. It may have less to do overall but a larger percentage of what's available remains open during the late night and early morning hours.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Let me be clear that I have never suggested scheduling a train so it passes by a major city during the graveyard shift. Ideally it should be the area of least population and/or moderate areas with other trains. For my proposed NYP-Texas train, having it run through upstate NY is ideal. Of course there are always other factors to consider. I would say leaving late at night and/or arriving early in a major city is way better than the other way around.


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## Bob Dylan

Vegas never sleeps!


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## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Let me be clear that I have never suggested scheduling a train so it passes by a major city during the graveyard shift. Ideally it should be the area of least population and/or moderate areas with other trains. For my proposed NYP-Texas train, having it run through upstate NY is ideal. Of course there are always other factors to consider. I would say leaving late at night and/or arriving early in a major city is way better than the other way around.


I generally agree with that. Unfortunately the peculiarity of the requirements of almost everyone having to connect in Chicago places additional constraints on schedules at least for the first and only train on a route at Chicago, which then has ripple effects that flow all across the country every which way.


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## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. Have all the LD trains arrive and depart New York between 11pm and 4am.  That should fix all the problems
> 
> 
> 
> Not as bad an idea as you think. New York is the "city that never sleeps". And hotel prices are astronomical.
> If you adjusted it to midnight to 5 AM, I know several people who would take the train down, arrive at 5 AM, spend a full day in NY, and leave at midnight very happy.
> 
> Heck, I'd take that train overnight from upstate NY.
Click to expand...

I have, for business trips, taken the Crescent to Greenville, SC. 5 AM arrival from the north, a full day of business, and an 1130 PM departure. And I'm not the only one boarding or detraining.

I've also traveled through Toledo for trips to Ann Arbor. Sometimes taking the Ambus, sometime taking a $50 cab ride to the airport (which feels like it's in Indiana) to get a rental car. Arrival from the east at about 5, departure near midnight.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

My proposal for New York-Dallas via upstate New York, Ohio (3-C), Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Meridian Speedway to Dallas. It's kind of like the Crescent Star but going through OH, KY, TN instead of via the Crescent route. It's about a 46 hr trip and would look to require 5 sets. I will call it the Lone Star. Feel free to suggest another name. I didn't think Penn Texas was appropriate since it goes through just one PA city.

I used the Thruway schedule between Meridian and Dallas with a near hour layover in Jackson, MS but a Pan American schedule (http://www.american-rails.com/pan-american.html) from 1969 so end to end time might be about right or even longer.

I am unable to upload my file so I will highlight certain cities.

15 16

New York 9:30pm 11:27am

Cleveland 9:17am/10:00am 10:45pm/11:29pm

Columbus 12:30pm/12:35pm 8:00pm/8:05pm

Cincinnati 3:45pm/4:20pm 4:35pm/5:00pm

Louisville 7:35pm/8:05pm 1:00pm/1:25pm

Nashville 11:00pm/11:20pm 7:50am/8:10am

Birmingham 3:15am/3:38am 3:15am/3:35am

Jackson, MS 8:50am/9:45am 9:05pm/10:05pm

Shreveport 1:25pm/1:50pm 4:59pm/5:35pm

Dallas 5:20pm 12:30pm

I can also try the Pan American route all the way to New Orleans and then to San Antonio (it would serve Montgomery, Mobile, and Biloxi) but that would take a lot longer.

New York Dallas December 2016.pdf


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## railbuck

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I didn't think Penn Texas was appropriate since it goes through just one PA city.


Surely there's a way to route it through PHL. :huh:


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

If you could figure out an effective way to go from Pittsburgh to Columbus, we can do NYP-PHL-PGH-Columbus-CIN-on the way to DAL via Louisville and Nashville. Otherwise, it's probably better to go through upstate New York.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I've never heard Philly say that . . .


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## FormerOBS

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you could figure out an effective way to go from Pittsburgh to Columbus, we can do NYP-PHL-PGH-Columbus-CIN-on the way to DAL via Louisville and Nashville. Otherwise, it's probably better to go through upstate New York.


My best suggestion for that leg is to ignore Cleveland. Run the train Pittsburgh - Youngstown - Akron - Greenwich on the old B&O, restoring service to Akron and Youngstown. Then Greenwich to Columbus on the Tri-C. Tom


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## railiner

Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:

New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...

Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

railiner said:


> Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:
> 
> New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...
> 
> Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...


That route wouldn't add any of the largest metros (Bristol, Knoxville, and Chattanooga metros all have less than 1 million people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas). 

The advantage is there is a good route from NYP to Lynchburg already and the expansion to Roanoke is coming shortly and your route does add PHL and WAS to the route. I also like the Memphis to Little Rock-Dallas routing.

Could the train be routed via Nashville between Knoxville and Memphis instead of Chattanooga? That would add a much bigger market and still be on the way at least geographically (not sure any good tracks though)? In fact, if I could do on my proposed route Nashville-Memphis-Little Rock-Dallas that might be faster than going through Birmingham. Or once you get to Memphis, you might be able to do Jackson, MS-Shreveport, LA-Dallas on that portion of the Meridian Speedway.


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## west point

Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? TC Line is now severed with ~20 Miles pulled up..


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## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? Line is now severed.


For Tennessee, first comes the day train Memphis-Paducah-Carbondale-Champaign-Chicago.

Next, a gift from the neighboring state, er, commonwealth, of Virginia will be an extended Dominion Express route Norfolk-Richmond-Charlottesville-and/or-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-points south. Nashville service, for the reason you cite among others, might best go Nashville-Memphis-Jackson, MS-New Orleans. Or Nashville-Decatur-and/or-Huntsville-Birmingham-points south. How those trains might usefully get to Nashville from CHI, hmmn, CHI-Indy-Louisville-Nashville on a host railroad that simply will NOT have it? Or somehow CHI-Terre Haute-Evansville-Nashville? Not bunch of heavy hitters on that line-up.

​So, faced with a faceful of cold water, the dream of Nashville services moves further down the to-do list.


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## west point

In the USA there are just 3 north - south routes . Silvers, City of NO, and Coast Starlight. AS well 2 NE to SW routes - Crescent and Eagle ( also going east west.). Total of 6 train routes s. East west 3 in the east & 4 in the west. Future Gulf coast limited 1 more.

Time for another north south. Proposal to run on Royal Palm schedule gives service to CIN, Lexington, Knoxville ( 15 mile drive from downtown ) Chattanooga, ( future connecting train from STL, Evansville, Nashville to Chattanooga ) = ATL, Macon, JAX Then on into Florida. Use Cardinal to bring cars from CHI, Once 3C corridor in service run train from Detroit picking up cars from CHI at CIN. Schedule will also allow Cardinal passenger from VA and WV to connect southbound to Florida. This would be only 840 new miles on NS and all other N-S eastern proposals for a long distance trains are many more miles and a longer enroute time..

SD train routes across the Ohio valley are short but at present require state support that hopefully will change ?


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## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:
> 
> New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...
> 
> Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...
> 
> 
> 
> That route wouldn't add any of the largest metros (Bristol, Knoxville, and Chattanooga metros all have less than 1 million people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas).
> 
> The advantage is there is a good route from NYP to Lynchburg already and the expansion to Roanoke is coming shortly and your route does add PHL and WAS to the route. I also like the Memphis to Little Rock-Dallas routing.
> 
> Could the train be routed via Nashville between Knoxville and Memphis instead of Chattanooga? That would add a much bigger market and still be on the way at least geographically (not sure any good tracks though)? In fact, if I could do on my proposed route Nashville-Memphis-Little Rock-Dallas that might be faster than going through Birmingham. Or once you get to Memphis, you might be able to do Jackson, MS-Shreveport, LA-Dallas on that portion of the Meridian Speedway.
Click to expand...




west point said:


> Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? TC Line is now severed with ~20 Miles pulled up..


The only way, since the early 1980's, to get from Knoxville to Nashville by rail is via Chattanooga anyway; That traces quite a long, zigzagged path through the state. It would have the advantage of passing through the four largest population centers in Tennessee, but such a long route would kill any chance of intrastate business. Though it misses Nashville, the Norfolk Southern line from Chattanooga to Memphis (through northern Alabama) makes much more sense.

There have been proposals to restore the abandoned (and removed) Monterey to Crab Orchard segment of the former Tennessee Central line; Predictably, the plans have gone nowhere (cost estimates were excessive). .


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## Palmetto

The Arizona Department of Transportation and the Feds have just finalized a route for their proposed Phoenix-Tuscon commuter rail service. In my mind, this opens up the possibility of Amtrak once again serving Phoenix.

Contingent on this would be the renovation of the former Southern Pacific mainline that goes to Wellton, AZ and connects there with the Union Pacific's Sunset route going west to Yuma. The route doesn't have to be super-fast, but the right-of-way will need sprucing up for sure in order to begin service.

I did a Google Earth flyover of the route this morning, and it appears the track goes all the way to Wellton, except for a short stretch through an industrial area. There is also what appears to be an ethanol plant west of Phoenix, and the Union Pacific Railroad is parking tank cars on the main line to serve it. A siding would have to put in at that point to accomodate the tank cars for the ethanol plant [if that's what it is].

The distance from Phoenix to Wellton is approximately 160 miles, and to bring it up to a state of repair to allow for 79 MPH + running is going to cost a good chunk of money. I propose taking what's there, even if it's jointed rail, and sprucing it up for 60 MPH as a start. [Let's not forget the Santa Fe railroad used to run 90 MPH on well maintained jointed rail.] Signals can come later, and higher speeds can come later. It's the incremental approach to restoring service.

It would also get Amtrak our the UP dispatcher's hair for a good 200 miles.

I do not know where the Southern Pacific Station is/was located in Phoenix, or even if it is still standing. But if it is east of the connection to the BNSF mainline going north, it is not out of the question that service could be established going to Albuquerque, Denver and points north of there [the Caprock Express]. Someone earlier pointed out the paucity of north-south Amtrak routes, and this would be a good one to establish connections and connectivity to the western two-thirds of the Amtrak operation.

All of this is, of course, predicated on adequate funding, so please don't throw up an objection based solely on that. We all know that funding for passenger rail in this country is quite inadequate.

Just my musings on a fine Tuesday morning in Texas.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.


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## Palmetto

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.


According the the map, there is no connection from the UP to the BNSF in Phoenix that would allow that, and there seems not to any room to build one either, unfortunately.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.


Open up a rail map of Arizona + New Mexico, and the answer will become clear as night follows a day to anyone.

Why do you think there will be a huge market on a slow and meandering route through the sticks where very few people live, and where they can drive way quicker on relatively unclogged highways than taking the train?



Palmetto said:


> According the the map, there is no connection from the UP to the BNSF in Phoenix that would allow that, and there seems not to any room to build one either, unfortunately.


One practical way to do it would be using the Deming - (Southwest Railroad Short Line) - Rincon - (BNSF) - Belen - (BNSF) - Albuquerque route. At least the riders will get a good grand tour of 2/3rds of New Mexico in the process, while they slowly meander along the Short Line  I believe the BNSF line from El Paso to Belen, which this rotue would join at Rincon, is in very good condition, but BNSF may have a conniption if someone proposed running a passenger train on it. The connection to this route at El paso faces the wrong way for a train coming from Tucson.

The other would be to run in reverse from Phoenix to Drake on the Arizona Central, slowly, and then reverse direction so that one is moving forward again on BNSF joining the BNSF main line at West Williams jct, and then to ABQ. This has the advantage of using established BNSF route including Williams and Flagstaff on the route, but would probably be sow as dickens.

All this assumes of coruse that the connection from Roll to Arlington ( that is the actual portion between Phoenix and Welton that is out of service) over the old SP main is restored allowing trains to come to Phoenix from the west.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I don't think Phoenix-Albuquerque-Denver as a stand alone train is practical. Even if it is 750 miles or above, while Phoenix and Denver are large cities/metros it would be hard to justify an LD train without at least one really huge market, NYP, CHI, or LAX. If you can't extend from Phoenix to Albuquerque the other option would be Denver-Chicago and you get a Chicago-Phoenix train. But what do you do in Phoenix without the ability to service the train?


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## WoodyinNYC

Palmetto said:


> The Arizona Department of Transportation and the Feds have just finalized a route for their proposed Phoenix-Tuscon commuter rail service. In my mind, this opens up the possibility of Amtrak once again serving Phoenix.


This is good news. Work incrementally to restore the service, and the commuter line is an excellent first step.

Last I read something, by Arizona's preliminary forecast it was gonna cost $4 or $5 Billion ore more. So we hope the latest study comes in at a lower estimate.


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## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I don't think Phoenix-Albuquerque-Denver as a stand alone train is practical. Even if it is 750 miles or above, while Phoenix and Denver are large cities/metros it would be hard to justify an LD train without at least one really huge market, NYP, CHI, or LA. If you can't extend from Phoenix to Albuquerque the other option would be Denver-Chicago and you get a Chicago-Phoenix train. But what do you do in Phoenix without the ability to service the train?


Previously I proposed L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso-Albuquerque-Pueblo-Colorado Springs-Denver-Omaha-Des Moines-Quad Cities-CHI. (Jis, I know the problem at El Paso, but we'll have to find a way.) Don't worry about the distances between the major cities. Their residents have a different attitude about distances than you do back East.

Amtrak already views L.A.-Phoenix and L.A.-Tucson as potential corridors, with overnight service each way. Of course, first take the Sunset Ltd daily. Then the route will need a second daily train to begin to build a corridor service. There's strong cultural and business links between El Paso and Phoenix, which is the nearest big city.

L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso service has a potential Mexican-American market. A very busy bus station in El Paso (within easy walking distance of the pedestrian bridge from Juarez) dispatches many busloads to those other Southwestern cities. Oh, and Greyhound has a smaller, less busy station, too.

El Paso-(UTEP or Univ of Texas at El Paso)-Las Cruces (New Mexico State U)-Albuquerque (Univ of New Mexico) is another market with strong cultural ties between the cities. And many people in El Paso drive to Denver in a day -- but admit it wears them out.

There has to be a good market for passengers Arizona-Colorado. Someone who can't/won't drive/fly now has to go from Tucson or Maricopa to L.A. then up to Emeryville to catch the Zephyr to go east. God help them. They would prefer to wander around on a train thru El Paso and Albuquerque over any of the present options.

At Albuquerque, the train can make connections with the Southwest Chief. It then becomes a Front Range train Pueblo-Colorado Springs-Denver. Connections to the Zephyr at Denver. Then turn right to go Denver-Omaha-CHI, which already badly needs a second frequency.

Big cities with Amtrak maintenance facilities at either end, and plenty of mid-point to mid-point markets in between.


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## Palmetto

Opening up another north-south route will increase connectivity between a myriad of places. I don't think that it's a prerequisite to have a "huge" endpoint as part of the plan. Do we consider Seattle "huge"? I don't. And I don't want to get into the "endpoint mentality". That has been used by Sen. McCain as a reason to end the Sunset Limited. ["It would be cheaper to buy every passenger a plane ticket from New Orleans to Los Angeles."]


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## ABQFloridian

I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.

Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route. Sadly, routing a 3 C's route though Akron would make it take way too long, but if they were timed well, the two routes could serve as feeders for each other.

As for Colorado Springs, a Front Range route from Denver to Pueblo at least seems like a no-brainer. My dream would be to see such a route that goes further south to Albuquerque and El Paso, because as noted above, there are lots of cultural connections along that route. Lots of people here in ABQ have family in El Paso or Colorado, plus we're bound by our love of chile.

There are also a good number of people north of Denver up towards Ft. Collins but that's another story.


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## west point

First item is for Amtrak to get their present trains and service in order. That includes enough equipment to meet demand on present trains.

Then the next item is adding another train when equipment is available.. The north <> south post statement seems to be the best. No slight intended to our western train proponents but there is not any route out west that can meet the possible population potential of a North South route in the east. Although not this poster's first preference here is a route that should really cover big potential service. Cleveland - Toledo ( connecting by having a Michigan train to come from Detroit and south Michigan to Toledo ) - Columbus - Dayton - Cincinnati ( southbound connecting to Cardinal from CHI & West VA ) - Lexington - Knoxville ( 20mile drive ) - Chattanooga - Atlanta ( South bound gets Crescent connection BHM & south ) - Macon - Jacksonville - and any number of various routes to Miami.

then when enough equipment STL - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga ( connecting to this CLE - MIA train. Gets the 3 C corridor running in Ohio and will open other possibilities as well.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

ABQFloridian said:


> I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.
> 
> Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route.


A commuter feeder from Akron/Canton to Cleveland would be worthless when it comes to Amtrak unless they ran to connect to/from the LSL/CL and ran during the graveyard shift. Of course it would help in general for commuter traffic.


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## ABQFloridian

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ABQFloridian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.
> 
> Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route.
> 
> 
> 
> A commuter feeder from Akron/Canton to Cleveland would be worthless when it comes to Amtrak unless they ran to connect to/from the LSL/CL and ran during the graveyard shift. Of course it would help in general for commuter traffic.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant it would be a good feeder if Amtrak hypothetically opened a daytime multi-frequency daytime route from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

Certainly, there's no reason for local governments to waste resources on a special train to meet the CL or LSL which will probably just be late for their useless arrival times anyway.


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## Seaboard92

Akron, Canton, Cleveland really needs to be a regular commuter train similar to VRE or MARC. And it shouldn't be run by Amtrak.

I'm not sure if you guys have ever looked at the official guide timetables you can check out how many overnight connections from Cincinnati to Midwestern cities.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I know the metro is served but the city of San Francisco isn't served by Amtrak trains. I'm sure many would like a train into the city and not the Thruway Bus. And most people outside of Emeryville have no idea where it is (I didn't until I visited).

I'm guessing trains can't go over the bay from Oakland to San Fran and it would be out of the way along the CS route. Caltrain runs from San Fran to San Jose. Ideally you'd have a train San Fran to San Jose to Los Angeles via San Luis Obispo/Santa Barbara (old Coast Daylight route). Who knows when California HSR will be ready?


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## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> First item is for Amtrak to get their present trains and service in order. That includes enough equipment to meet demand on present trains.
> 
> [Yes!]
> 
> Then the next item is adding another train when equipment is available.
> 
> [Yes!]
> 
> The north <> south post statement seems to be the best. No slight intended to our western train proponents but there is not any route out west that can meet the possible population potential of a North <> South route in the east. [Yes! The Appalachian and Mid-South regions are very badly underserved.]
> 
> Although not this poster's first preference, here is a route
> 
> [Don't be a tease, tell us your true preference]
> 
> that should really cover big potential [markets]. Cleveland - Toledo ( connecting by having a Michigan train to come from Detroit and south Michigan to Toledo ) [and/or to Columbus, allowing a direct CLE-Columbus train to join/split at Columbus, or even at Cincinnati]- Columbus - Dayton - Cincinnati ( southbound connecting to Cardinal from CHI & West VA ) - Lexington - Knoxville ( 20mile drive ) [isn't there a second, more easterly route Cincinnati-Knoxville? maybe not in usable condition?] - Chattanooga - Atlanta ( southbound gets Crescent connection BHM & south ) - Macon - Jacksonville - and any number of various routes to Miami.
> 
> [The Virginia trains planners are looking ahead to Richmond-(maybe via Charlottesville?)-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga. Virginia knows how to get trains done, so I'm counting on this one. It could continue to ATL if that city ever builds an adequate station. Oh, well, the Ohio planners couldn't figure out how to have two routes (Cardinal and 3-Cs} meet at the same Cincinnati station! (That was another reason Gov Kasich was able to abort the 3-Cs.) Otherwise forget ATL. Chattanooga-Huntsville, AL-Decatur, AL-Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-New Orleans/Florida should work well enuff. Meanwhile this Virginia-backed route apparently anticipates connecting with a train Louisville-Frankfort-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga. Where such a train might originate, could be Ohio, or it could run CHI-Indianapolis-Louisville, of course.]
> 
> Then when enough equipment [begin Kansas City or CHI] - STL - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga ( connecting to this CLE - MIA train ).
> 
> Gets the 3 C corridor running in Ohio and will open other possibilities as well.
> 
> [i'd also put a second train on the CoNO tracks CHI-Memphis, then head east to Birmingham-beyond. Not quite the route of the Floridian, but could be another Florida train. If a good route to Florida seems difficult, go Birmingham-New Orleans.]
> 
> [Of the cities mentioned, I guess Columbus is the biggest. But taken together the East Tennessee Three of Chattanooga-Knoxville-Bristol (Tri-Cities) are likely bigger than Columbus. And Louisville, Memphis, and Birmingham aren't chopped liver, while Indianapolis has the population to support another route or two.]


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I found a link to this report from the Chaddick Institute for Metropolitan Development (Depaul University): https://las.depaul.edu/centers-and-institutes/chaddick-institute-for-metropolitan-development/Documents/ChaddickInstitute_GroundTransportationGapsStudy_20170823.pdf

They discuss "Ground Transportation Gaps" which tie together rail transportation with "express coach" bus service which include Megabus and BoltBus but not Greyhound, referring to these as "middle mode" transportation. They identified 152 routes between 120-400 miles that lack a viable middle mode transportation route. The #1 city pair is Los Angeles-Phoenix, followed by Detroit-Cleveland (Table 3 in document). They also identify ten "Pockets of Pain" which are "The Largest U.S. Metropolitan Areas with neither Amtrak nor Express Coach service(U.S. Mainland)" (#1 Phoenix, #2 Columbus, #3 Tulsa, Las Vegas does have express coaches). Figure 7B highlights Columbus and shows routes and estimated number of trips from Columbus to various cities including Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and indianapolis while Figure 7C highlights Phoenix and its neighbors (Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Diego. Tuscon).


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## Green Maned Lion

The most important new route in PA is New York-Allentown-Reading-Harrisburg


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## neroden

Damn Kasich. We could have had Cincy-Columbus-Cleveland up and running by now if not for him.


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## The 3 Ducks Quacking

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.
> 
> 
> 
> Open up a rail map of Arizona + New Mexico, and the answer will become clear as night follows a day to anyone.
> 
> Why do you think there will be a huge market on a slow and meandering route through the sticks where very few people live, and where they can drive way quicker on relatively unclogged highways than taking the train?
> 
> 
> 
> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> According the the map, there is no connection from the UP to the BNSF in Phoenix that would allow that, and there seems not to any room to build one either, unfortunately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One practical way to do it would be using the Deming - (Southwest Railroad Short Line) - Rincon - (BNSF) - Belen - (BNSF) - Albuquerque route. At least the riders will get a good grand tour of 2/3rds of New Mexico in the process, while they slowly meander along the Short Line
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the BNSF line from El Paso to Belen, which this rotue would join at Rincon, is in very good condition, but BNSF may have a conniption if someone proposed running a passenger train on it. The connection to this route at El paso faces the wrong way for a train coming from Tucson.
> 
> The other would be to run in reverse from Phoenix to Drake on the Arizona Central, slowly, and then reverse direction so that one is moving forward again on BNSF joining the BNSF main line at West Williams jct, and then to ABQ. This has the advantage of using established BNSF route including Williams and Flagstaff on the route, but would probably be sow as dickens.
> 
> All this assumes of coruse that the connection from Roll to Arlington ( that is the actual portion between Phoenix and Welton that is out of service) over the old SP main is restored allowing trains to come to Phoenix from the west.
Click to expand...

It needs to be remembered that most likely after 12/31/2018 all passenger trains will have to run on lines PTC equipped. The best you can hope for is all new rail line with PTC with no grade crossings and all rail crossings will be fly overs. The curves will be much broader than the freight lines have.


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## railgeekteen

neroden said:


> If Oregon ever wanted to put in real money (sigh) a reroute over the Medford route would be very successful. Klamath Falls is no loss. The Medford route needs a lot of money to bring it up to decent speeds, though, and I just don't see Oregon putting in the money in the next decade or two.


How is it no loss?


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## Metra Electric Rider

railgeekteen said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Oregon ever wanted to put in real money (sigh) a reroute over the Medford route would be very successful. Klamath Falls is no loss. The Medford route needs a lot of money to bring it up to decent speeds, though, and I just don't see Oregon putting in the money in the next decade or two.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it no loss?
Click to expand...

I think the point was that the reroute would serve several small cities and a lot more population than the current route.


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## railgeekteen

I'm going to take a stab at this

Las Vegas-Desert Wind

Columbus-3C service or a revived National Limited

Nashville-bring back the Floridan

Louisville-same as above

Tulsa-extended the Heartland Flyer

Knoxville-new Floridan via Cincinnati

Allentown-service from New York to Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading

Baton Rouge-service to New Orleans

McAllen-Texas Eagle extension

Dayton-3C or National Limited

Sarasota-extend the Silver Star

Fort Myers-train to Tampa

Colorado Springs-Front Range service

Boise-bring back the Pioneer

Des Moines-my Chicago-Denver route

Augusta-reroute the Silver Star

Melbourne-Florida East Coast route

Scranton-service to NYC

Youngstown-reroute the Capitol Limited

Chattanooga-bring back a rerouted Floridan

Fayetteville-service to Little Rock via Fort Smith

Tri Cities TN-extend the Northeast Regional Roanoke trains

Santa Rosa-Service to the Bay Area? I honestly have no clue

Lexington KY-new Floridan via Cincinnati

Pensacola-bring back the Sunset East

Shreveport – Bossier City-branch of the Crescent

Springfield, Missouri-service from St Louis or Kansas City

Corpus Christi-extend the Texas Eagle

Asheville, North Carolina-train from Charlotte

Huntsville, Alabama-Service from Nashville and Atlanta?

Gulfport – Biloxi – Pascagoula, Mississippi-Sunset East

Brownsville, Texas-extend the Texas Eagle

Mobile, Alabama-Sunset East

Manchester – Nashua, New Hampshire- Boston-Montreal train

Salisbury – Ocean City, Maryland-Train to NYC via Dover and Philly

Myrtle Beach, South Carolina-Train to DC? No good routes to here.

Saginaw, Michigan-Train to Detroit or Chicago via Flint

Quad Cities area (Davenport/Bettendorf, Iowa, Rock Island/Moline, Illinois)-proposed service, also on my Chicago-Denver route

Peoria, Illinois-train to Chicago

Montgomery, Alabama-bring back the Gulf Breeze

Tallahassee, Florida-Sunset East

Appleton – Oshkosh – Neenah, Wisconsin- Chicago to Green Bay train

Rockford, Illinois-Black Hawk

Ocala, Florida-new Tampa-Jacksonville train

Midland – Odessa, Texas- Dallas-El Paso train

Evansville, Indiana-train to Chicago or Indianapolis

Green Bay-train to Chicago

Lubbock, Texas-Caprock Chief

Clarksville, Tennessee-Train to Nashville? I don't know.

Fort Smith, Arkansas-train to Little Rock

Duluth, Minnesota-bring back the North Star

Gainesville, Florida-Train to Jacksonville?

Wilmington, North Carolina-train to Charlotte

Cedar Rapids, Iowa-train to Chicago

Laredo, Texas- US-Mexico train

Amarillo, Texas-Caprock Chief

Binghamton, New York-my proposed Southern Tier service between New York and Chicago

Yakima, Washington-train to Seattle

Sioux Falls, South Dakota-train to the Twin Cities

College Station – Bryan, Texas-bring back the Lone Star, or just a Dallas-Houston train

Macon, Georgia-rerouted Floridian

Rochester, Minnesota-reroute the Empire Builder, or solo train to the Twin Cities

There are some more cities, but I will resume latter.


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## neroden

For Binghamton, NY, I have local knowledge: the desirable route is Hoboken-Scranton (via the Lackawanna Cutoff), Scranton-Binghamton, Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse. Network effects abound.


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## Pere Flyer

Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Detroit.

“The Palm Reader”

No idea how the trackage would work, but connecting four of the most populous Mitten cities by rail makes 100 percent sense. We don’t *all* want only to go to Chicago.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## SarahZ

Pere Flyer said:


> Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Detroit.
> 
> “The Palm Reader”


It took me a second to catch it, but I love that name.


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## jis

As for the cities in Florida, Florida State actually has a passenger rail plan a quick look at that tempered by current realities suggests:

Ocala - unlikely to get passenger service unless someone funds adding a second track to the CSX ROW. The deal that transferred the route segment Deland - Orlando - Poinciana to CFRC (Sunrail) involved giving up passenger train access to the CSX route through Ocala.

Gainesville - No chance absent construction of a completely new railroad. Access was via Waldo for Amtrak. Waldo has the same problem as Ocala.

Tallahassee - to be served by New Orleans - Orlando service that is in advanced stages of planning.

Pensacola - to be served by New Orleans - Orlando service that is in advanced stages of planning.

Melbourne - will be served by the Coca/Rockledge Brightline station that is in advanced stages of planning. The entire Space Coast plus a bit of northern Treasure Coast will probably start with a single station, and get a second one much later. The first station most likely will be in Cocoa/Rockledge. The second, if it happens will likely be in the Melbourne/Palm Bay area.

St. Petersburg - Someday may be served by Tampa-St. Pete area local transit rail. Unlikely to be served by intercity.

Sarasota - Part of the Florida plan, not clear who or how at present

Ft. Myers - Part of Florida plan. Not clear who or how at present

St. Augustine - Most likely to be served by Brightline JAX extension if/when that happens.

Daytona - Most likely to be served by Brightline JAX extension if and when that happens. There is also an on again/off again proposal for extending Sunrail some day using new trackage along the I-4 ROW from the DeBary area.

An Amtrak routing down FECR is not dead yet, but is on the back burner. With an appropriate Governor and legislature in place in Florida it might happen. No chance with the current Florida State government. But things might change in a big way come November.


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## Eric S

Pere Flyer said:


> Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Detroit.
> 
> “The Palm Reader”
> 
> No idea how the trackage would work, but connecting four of the most populous Mitten cities by rail makes 100 percent sense. We don’t *all* want only to go to Chicago.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Here's a link to an MDOT study from a couple years ago, if you want to dig into the route options looked at for this service:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Coast-to-Coast_Passenger_Rail_Study_-_Feb_2016-ss_516441_7.pdf


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## jis

The 3 Ducks Quacking said:


> It needs to be remembered that most likely after 12/31/2018 all passenger trains will have to run on lines PTC equipped. The best you can hope for is all new rail line with PTC with no grade crossings and all rail crossings will be fly overs. The curves will be much broader than the freight lines have.


There is no need to remember that since that is simply not true since that is not what the law says. Go and read the CFR and then come back and tell that to use again. Stop making nonsensical claims please.


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## neroden

Relevant to Ohio, Kasich is not running for re-election (thank goodness). Of note, Mike DeWine, who is likely to become the Republican candidate, has a history of supporting both Amtrak and High-Speed Rail plans. (If his primary opponent, Mary Taylor, wins, I would expect her to be hostile to rail; she's never mentioned it but she was Kasich's lieutenant governor.)

The most likely Democratic candidate, Richard Cordray, probably will support Amtrak and high-speed rail, since the whole Ohio Democratic Party usually does. (The other likely candidate, Kucinich, definitely would.)

So we may finally have a chance to make some progress in Ohio. Worth getting started on...


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