# Phoenix AZ?



## MARC Rider (Jun 21, 2017)

It got so hot in Phoenix yesterday that the planes couldn't take off!

What would they need to to to start up rail service? (and not just the Sunset three days a week, but full daily service to nearby cities.) Maybe they should set up a satellite airport in Flagstaff, which at a much higher elevation presumably is a bit cooler, and run a train between Phoenix and Flagstaff. Was there ever a rail line between the two cities? I drove it once and recall having to cross a pretty major escarpment.

This sort of thing could happen in other cities across the southern US more in the future. Perhaps it might be a good idea to have a rail alternative. Of course, the trains will be delayed because of heat kinks. Well, you can't have everything.


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## KmH (Jun 21, 2017)

Mostly the smaller regional planes. They have trouble developing lift on hot days because the hot air is less dense.

At higher altitude, like Flagstaff, the air is also less dense.

The airlines could do like mid-east country airlines do - schedule arrivals and departures at night or early morning when the air temperature is lower.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 21, 2017)

KmH said:


> Mostly the smaller regional planes. They have trouble developing lift on hot days because the hot air is less dense.
> 
> At higher altitude, like Flagstaff, the air is also less dense.
> 
> The airlines could do like mid-east country airlines do - schedule arrivals and departures at night or early morning when the air temperature is lower.


The elevation is higher, but the temperature is more than a bit cooler. In July, the average temperature in Phoenix is 94.8 compared to only 66.1 in Flagstaff. The temperatures in Flagstaff during the summer are actually cooler than any major American city off of the immediate West Coast.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 21, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Mostly the smaller regional planes. They have trouble developing lift on hot days because the hot air is less dense.
> ...


 He was t talking about temps. Higher elevations have thinner air than lower elevations.


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## ehbowen (Jun 21, 2017)

As a(n inactive) pilot, the phrase you need to search for is, "density altitude." As I write this post at 10:38 am Mountain Standard Time, the density altitude in Phoenix (with elevation of 1135' MSL and current temperature of 102F) is 4218 feet. The density altitude in Flagstaff (with elevation of 7014' MSL and current temperature of 87F) is 8493 feet...more than twice as high. It would take much more runway to take off in Flagstaff, and a small plane like the ones I used to fly might not even be able to manage it at all if fully loaded.


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## railiner (Jun 21, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> It got so hot in Phoenix yesterday that the planes couldn't take off!
> 
> What would they need to to to start up rail service? (and not just the Sunset three days a week, but full daily service to nearby cities.) Maybe they should set up a satellite airport in Flagstaff, which at a much higher elevation presumably is a bit cooler, and run a train between Phoenix and Flagstaff. Was there ever a rail line between the two cities? I drove it once and recall having to cross a pretty major escarpment.
> 
> This sort of thing could happen in other cities across the southern US more in the future. Perhaps it might be a good idea to have a rail alternative. Of course, the trains will be delayed because of heat kinks. Well, you can't have everything.


Here's a video showing trains on the BNSF "Peavine line"...


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## west point (Jun 21, 2017)

Phoenix (PHX) - LAX service would need the restoration of the rail line that was abandoned by UP from PHX ( actually Litchfield ? ) - Wellton (rejoining the sunset route. What if someone paid for restoring this segment and charged UP anytime they sent trains over the route on a per car basis ? Then only normal Amtrak rights from Wellton - LAX. Then if you can get all that done you just have to get more equipment.


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## Anthony V (Jun 24, 2017)

west point said:


> Phoenix (PHX) - LAX service would need the restoration of the rail line that was abandoned by UP from PHX ( actually Litchfield ? ) - Wellton (rejoining the sunset route. What if someone paid for restoring this segment and charged UP anytime they sent trains over the route on a per car basis ? Then only normal Amtrak rights from Wellton - LAX. Then if you can get all that done you just have to get more equipment.


The line wasn't fully abandoned (the tracks are still there), but was downgraded by the UP around the time they took over the Southern Pacific. UP still uses it for freight car storage.


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## the_traveler (Jun 24, 2017)

If Amtrak did restore that line, they would be responsible for maintenance of the line, unless they could reach some agreement with UP. (Just like NM and BNSF did for the Goleta Pass.) But with 3x service, it would not be economical feasible. There is a rail line off the BNSF trans-con to PHX, but it circles far west before returning east (due to the 4,000 foot drop in a straight line) and is very slow.


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## ehbowen (Jun 24, 2017)

I wonder what the possibility is of resuming service through Phoenix via the former ATSF Cadiz cutoff? The _Sunset's _route into Phoenix from the east is still in good shape, and Santa Fe used to take through cars from Phoenix off the Peavine and route them up to the transcontinental main line at Cadiz to join with the _California Limited_. It wasn't time-competitive with SP's _Sunset_ (9:45 from Phoenix to Barstow via Cadiz), but then again the present schedule isn't very passenger-friendly between PHX (well, MRC!) and LAX. Suppose the _Sunset_ was combined with the _SWC_ into Fullerton and LAX?


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## west point (Jun 24, 2017)

Maintenance of the line would be entirely up to an agreement. If an agreement like Capital corridor has with UP all the better. It might be agreed that the line would be maintained to say 90 or 110 MPH. Any faster would require it to be sealed which would not be feasible. Some kind of agreement would need a contingency for what happens to maintenance when UP uses it for freight. That will happen because sooner or later the route going by Maricopa will get blocked or UP will use the route routinely for traffic towards LAX.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jun 24, 2017)

This thread seems to be open to wild-ass speculation, so here's another:

California has been seriously studying putting a couple of trains on the L.A.-Fullerton-Palm Springs-Indio corridor, with a vague mention of future trains to Phoenix. The state is in no position to spend big money here, not while the CAHSR project is sucking up all the funds. But the day may come ...

Of course, the UP is not welcoming more passenger trains on its main line, and nobody is saying, "Next stop Yuma" -- not just yet. Meanwhile Interstate 10 leaves the _Sunset_ route and heads east for 200 miles, crossing the Colorado at Blythe before arriving in Phoenix, a much more direct route than via Yuma to the south.

We'll see how it goes with CAHSR first, but L.A.-Phoenix via Blythe could easily be the second HRS route from California. In that case, any money spent restoring Phoenix (Litchfield)-Yuma (Wellton) could be a big waste.


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## TML (Jul 12, 2017)

I personally would like to see that like west of Phoenix reactivated. I think all it takes for this to happen is sufficient political will.

In terms of costs, I've seen different figures from different sources. For example, a 2005 study conducted by the Southwest Rail Corridor Coalition stated that it would cost about $32 million to improve the segment between Phoenix and Yuma for "basic" Amtrak service (i.e. service as it was before 1996) and $107 million to make further improvements to accommodate multiple daily train service. However, more recent studies by the Arizona DOT suggest that it would cost several hundred million dollars (presumably due to higher standards). Nonetheless, if the track were to be torn up, it would cost even more (perhaps with litigation involved) to rebuild it.

In terms of building a new rail line from Phoenix to Southern California, I would support it if it (among other things) allows Amtrak to return to Phoenix proper. However, if funding is relatively low, I would recommend focusing on rehabilitating the existing track first.


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## neroden (Jul 12, 2017)

The political will for restoring service to downtown Phoenix, in both Phoenix and Arizona as a whole, seems to be missing. I have no idea why. Just no traction at all.

I wonder if it would be more effective now that Phoenix has a large local rail system and Tucson has a small one. Probably not: they still don't seem to be able to get traction for Phoenix-Tuscon rail, or even commuter rail to Wickenburg, and Amtrak seems to be totally outside their attention. I think we have better odds of getting a day train from Cleveland to Chicago.


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## west point (Jul 12, 2017)

Ignoring the equipment available issues what would a Tucson - PHX - Yuma - LAX daytime daily train(s) entail ? There seems to be a real market there ?


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## ehbowen (Jul 12, 2017)

west point said:


> Ignoring the equipment available issues what would a Tucson - PHX - Yuma - LAX daytime daily train(s) entail ? There seems to be a real market there ?


Someone with a lot of money and someone with a lot of authority who really want to make it happen. Unlikely that the two someones are the same person (but, theoretically, possible).


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## Poindexter118 (Jul 12, 2017)

I took Amtrak from L.A. to Flagstaff, and then rented a car to drive to Phoenix. The train from L.A. to Flag was a nice trip. It strikes me as funny that Amtrak has a train to Tucson. That city is smaller than Phoenix. I wonder why.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 12, 2017)

Poindexter118 said:


> I took Amtrak from L.A. to Flagstaff, and then rented a car to drive to Phoenix. The train from L.A. to Flag was a nice trip. It strikes me as funny that Amtrak has a train to Tucson. That city is smaller than Phoenix. I wonder why.


Amtrak runs most routes on tracks operated by freight railroads. The route through Tucson, the Sunset Limited, operates on the Union Pacific. In the past, the Sunset Limited did operate to Phoenix until Union Pacific decided to abandon the line connecting Phoenix to Yuma, where it met the current route. The future ideas discussed in this thread primarily involve restoring that line so the Sunset Limited or a corridor train can once again serve Phoenix.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 12, 2017)

Would be dumb to spend all that money restoring tracks just for Amtrak. Reckon if it was to happen, would involve commuter rail for Phoenix.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 17, 2017)

I wonder if there's not enough political will to restore the Goodyear/Litchfield(?)-Wellton track that UP downgraded in the 1990s(and forced Amtrak to reroute to Maricopa), if the light rail system for the Phoenix area could be expanded to Maricopa? I noticed there is a line to at least Tempe and Mesa, but don't know if there has ever been talk about expanding light rail service south? It'd be interesting if there at least was bus service, between Maricopa and Phoenix. I also wonder if Uber/Lyft serves Maricopa?

Arizona does seem like the kind of state government that'd probably be lukewarm to providing a lot of support to Amtrak, but what do I know? Somehow I suspect it'd be easier for commuter rail service to begin servicing Palm Springs(and that immediate area) than it would for more Amtrak service there, but what do I know about the local political situation there in regards to possible expanded rail service to this area?


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## Eric S (Jul 17, 2017)

Light rail service to Maricopa? I just can't see it. Maricopa is way beyond what I'd consider a reasonable extension of Valley Metro light rail service. Given that there isn't even local bus service in Maricopa (as best I can tell), the recently-started Thruway connection between Maricopa - Tempe - Phoenix is probably going to have to suffice.

Palm Springs? California has been studying additional rail service from Los Angeles to the Coachella Valley. Most recently the thought had been 2 Amtrak roundtrips/day, but the cost numbers were, uh, not promising.


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## bretton88 (Jul 17, 2017)

neroden said:


> The political will for restoring service to downtown Phoenix, in both Phoenix and Arizona as a whole, seems to be missing. I have no idea why. Just no traction at all.
> 
> I wonder if it would be more effective now that Phoenix has a large local rail system and Tucson has a small one. Probably not: they still don't seem to be able to get traction for Phoenix-Tuscon rail, or even commuter rail to Wickenburg, and Amtrak seems to be totally outside their attention. I think we have better odds of getting a day train from Cleveland to Chicago.


Any political will is being spent on Phoenix to Tuscon rail plans, though I think the cost #s have caused everyone to even step back from that.
Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## neroden (Jul 18, 2017)

Phoenix-Tucson is cheap at <$5 billion, which can be bonded over 20 or 30 years. (AZDOT spends $3 billion per year.) But the state government is still fairly road-obsessed.


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 24, 2017)

To add Phoenix, the SL would have to be a daily train first, then the Arizona political power would have to back the project. If the UP is using the west bound track for car storage, it still exists, but to what quality of repair? Arizona would need to put up money for Station upgrading or rebuilding. Being that John McCain is extremely anti-Amtrak, I see this proposal failing until new blood is elected that is open to rail transportation.


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## Anthony V (Jul 24, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> To add Phoenix, the SL would have to be a daily train first, then the Arizona political power would have to back the project. If the UP is using the west bound track for car storage, it still exists, but to what quality of repair? Arizona would need to put up money for Station upgrading or rebuilding. Being that John McCain is extremely anti-Amtrak, I see this proposal failing until new blood is elected that is open to rail transportation.


I think the Sunset Limited not being daily was a major reason there was no interest in doing what was necessary to keep the train directly serving Phoenix back in 1996. If the SL ever goes daily (unlikely to happen anytime soon, unfortunately), there may be more of a push to bring the train back to Phoenix proper, especially considering the problems at the Maricopa station. The West Line's tracks were never torn up, so it will be much easier to restore it than it would've been if it would've been totally abandoned. UP still uses them for freight car storage.


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## Poindexter118 (Jul 31, 2017)

I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?


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## railiner (Jul 31, 2017)

Poindexter118 said:


> I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?


The Sunset Limited used to go thru Phoenix, but the main freight route bypasses it to the south, and some years ago, the passenger line could no longer be sustained economically, so the Sunset was shifted over to the freight line, and part of the former passenger line was taken out of service. Maricopa, is now the closest station to Phoenix....


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 31, 2017)

Poindexter118 said:


> I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?


You should look back on Page 2 for my response to essentially the same inquiry from you less than three weeks ago.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 1, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Poindexter118 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?
> ...


Brian, you gave a fine reply when he posted the same question before.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 1, 2017)

I keep reading how the rerouting of the Sunset was all the fault of the freight railroad.

Am I the only one who recalls what may have been an example of domestic terrorism when a bomb blew up a bridge, throwing the Sunset into the dry riverbed below?

After that incident, UP moved its trains and Amtrak to the Maricopa route. It remains an unsolved crime, but it certainly shouldn't be forgotten.


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## Eric S (Aug 1, 2017)

WoodyinNYC said:


> I keep reading how the rerouting of the Sunset was all the fault of the freight railroad.
> 
> Am I the only one who recalls what may have been an example of domestic terrorism when a bomb blew up a bridge, throwing the Sunset into the dry riverbed below?
> 
> After that incident, UP moved its trains and Amtrak to the Maricopa route. It remains an unsolved crime, but it certainly shouldn't be forgotten.


Hmm, were the trains permanently rerouted immediately after that incident, which occurred in October 1995? I thought it occurred later, sometime in 1996. The April 1996 Amtrak timetable shows the Sunset Limited still serving Phoenix, but with a note that there might be changes in May (of 1996).

(I also think it was still SP [southern Pacific] at the time.)


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 1, 2017)

More about the derailment, better than my faulty memory (no bomb involved).

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/best-reads/2015/10/10/amtrak-train-derailment-sunset-limited-arizona-1995/73604602/

And from Wikipedia:



> On October 9, 1995, saboteurs derailed the _Sunset Limited_ near Harqua, Arizona by removing 29 spikes from a section of track, and short-circuited the signal system to conceal the sabotage.[3]
> 
> On June 2, 1996, the _Sunset Limited_ was rerouted to a more southerly route between Tucson, and Yuma, Arizona, bypassing Phoenix, in order to accommodate the Union Pacific Railroad's desire to abandon a portion of its Phoenix-to-Yuma "West Line".


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Aug 1, 2017)

Poindexter118 said:


> I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?


You can ask this question about a hundred other instances in this country, replacing Tucson and Phoenix with another smaller city and another larger city. Proving once again Amtrak doesn't make sense. Or CENTS.


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 1, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Poindexter118 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been amazed for years that Amtrak has a train to Tucson and not Phoenix. Tucson is about half the size of Phoenix. Why don't they have a train going there?
> ...


Except for the Northeastern US where Amtrak owns the right of way (in conjunction with some commuter entities) Amtrak has to travel on tracks owned by the freight railroads which say where Amtrak can operate. When Amtrak started, the traveling public was lead to believe that service would eventually be restored on many lines that lost service 5/1/1971. That was far from true because Amtrak was set up to fail and many thought it would be gone of 10 years except for the Northeast Corridor. A few political routes were restored such as the North Coast Hiawatha and some West Virginia routes where locals pressed their congress people to bring back service. Given the current political climate in Washington, we are fortunate to have the very skeletal system that exists. That is why Amtrak doesn't make sense.


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## Lonestar648 (Aug 4, 2017)

I remember the SL stopping in Phoenix, but only stopping three times a week each way, didn't/doesn't produce enough revenue to keep a track being abandoned by the freight company that owned it, operational. Also, with Sen. McCain so anti-Amtrak, the people of Arizona are probably lucky the SL stops as often as it does in AZ.


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## dogbert617 (Aug 5, 2017)

Eric S said:


> Light rail service to Maricopa? I just can't see it. Maricopa is way beyond what I'd consider a reasonable extension of Valley Metro light rail service. Given that there isn't even local bus service in Maricopa (as best I can tell), the recently-started Thruway connection between Maricopa - Tempe - Phoenix is probably going to have to suffice.
> 
> Palm Springs? California has been studying additional rail service from Los Angeles to the Coachella Valley. Most recently the thought had been 2 Amtrak roundtrips/day, but the cost numbers were, uh, not promising.


Ah, okay. It looked like local Valley Metro bus service only went as far south as Chandler(and about the SanTan Freeway), but not any further south than that sadly. It is too bad the political will wouldn't be enough to encourage UP to allow the Sunset to be restored onto the former Wellton-Phoenix track route, it used to run over.

I almost forgot about the bridge that was tampered with, which caused the derailment west of Phoenix. Was that bridge ever repaired, after this incident? It's too bad UP downgraded that track line, and that Amtrak was forced to reroute that train onto the main UP freight line to LAX(instead serving Maricopa) south of Phoenix.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 6, 2017)

dogbert617 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Light rail service to Maricopa? I just can't see it. Maricopa is way beyond what I'd consider a reasonable extension of Valley Metro light rail service. Given that there isn't even local bus service in Maricopa (as best I can tell), the recently-started Thruway connection between Maricopa - Tempe - Phoenix is probably going to have to suffice.
> ...


Amtrak continued to operate on the line after the derailment so either the bridge was repaired or another was built.


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## Lonestar648 (Aug 6, 2017)

I thought Phoenix was cut about the time other cuts were happening meaning the atmosphere in WAS was not to spend money when there was a solution that didn't cost.


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## TML (Aug 7, 2017)

n terms of political will, I think there may be light at the end of the tunnel here: AZ is trending Democratic in recent elections, and if this trend continues, soon pro-rail officials could be elected to state and federal offices in AZ. That would probably increase the likelihood of funding being dedicated to fixing up the Wellton Branch.


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## Anthony V (Aug 7, 2017)

One can only hope.


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## west point (Aug 7, 2017)

Fixing the Welton branch would probably only come with the Sunset becoming a daily train ?


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 7, 2017)

Once Sen "Amtrak doesn't serve my State." McCain is replaced, ( hopefully by someone with sense) and the Dems get control of the Congress and Senate again, things should look up for Amtrak.

Don't think you'll ever see the Sunset serve Phoenix again though!


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## railgeekteen (Mar 20, 2018)

If Arizona wants to pay for it, I have proposed a corridor service going Los Angeles-Phoenix-Tuscon.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 21, 2018)

Of course, UP would be very cooperative with that idea.


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## railgeekteen (Apr 5, 2018)

Could commuter rail ever reach Tuscon from Phoenix? Would not require much new track work.


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## jis (Apr 5, 2018)

Or Tucson and Phoenix could simply extend their LRT systems to join up midway


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## zephyr17 (Apr 5, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Could commuter rail ever reach Tuscon from Phoenix? Would not require much new track work.


It requires no new trackwork. The embargoed line is west of Phoenix to the mainline at Wellton outside Yuma. The UP Phoenix branch between Phoenix and the mainline at Picacho Jct. is in fine shape.

What it requires is cooperation of UP and, again, money, for platforms, new/lengthened sidings UP would no doubt demand and money to UP for "cooperation".


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## west point (Apr 6, 2018)

Under present Amtrak administration appears that Amtrak would not be willing to put a dollar into a routing thru PHX ?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Apr 6, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Could commuter rail ever reach Tuscon from Phoenix? Would not require much new track work.


There has been some efforts made to make that happen. For Amtrak, it would setup a situation similar to Caltrain in the San Francisco area. In that case, Amtrak still busses passengers from Oakland to San Francisco rather than advertise Caltrain from San Jose, although some passengers use it anyway when coming from points south on the CS. When coming from the north/east, it is very roundabout. I made the connection from Caltrain to the northbound CS in December, but very few passengers would make that choice unless they have a strong hate for busses.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 7, 2018)

The political atmosphere in Arizona is not right for rail expansion, maybe sometime in the future things will change.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2018)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> railgeekteen said:
> 
> 
> > Could commuter rail ever reach Tuscon from Phoenix? Would not require much new track work.
> ...


I suppose it could be easy for Amtrak to make CalTrain a Thruway Service, though that would involve paper tickets unless they can come to some sort of understanding on CalTrain accepting Amtrak eTicket bar/QR codes.


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## neroden (Apr 11, 2018)

west point said:


> Fixing the Welton branch would probably only come with the Sunset becoming a daily train ?


And either fixing up the tracks through Phoenix *or* running a daily train would require political support from Arizona, which is signally lacking. (Which is why Amtrak doesn't serve Phoenix right now.)


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## neroden (Apr 11, 2018)

TML said:


> n terms of political will, I think there may be light at the end of the tunnel here: AZ is trending Democratic in recent elections, and if this trend continues, soon pro-rail officials could be elected to state and federal offices in AZ. That would probably increase the likelihood of funding being dedicated to fixing up the Wellton Branch.


While you might be right, Arizona's trend is moving very slowly. Nevada, New Hampshire, and Florida are all shifting faster.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 13, 2018)

The big Senate roadblock could retire soon.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2018)

He's not the big roadblock. Look at the Arizona Governor and the legislature. :-(

For contrast, look at New Mexico.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 16, 2018)

Well, so many regular folks have absolutely no clue about passenger rail. At a church group breakfast last year, a gentleman was going on and on about If a train was to come to the area how it would bring so many homeless people, degrading the real estate market. I asked how. His response and now quite a few others too, the only people who ride trains are the homeless. Asked where they got this notion, they pointed to the anti rail proponents who work nationally. I asked them if the 30 plus million who ride just Amtrak are homeless, if the 100k who ride trains daily in the Chicago area are homeless, and who pays the billions of dollars for these "homeless" people to ride. I was told the government pays Amtrak almost 2 Billon a year to carry them.

Now my friends know better, agree that in this area so many are ignorant. It has gotten now, that when ever I take a long trip, especially with one of my granddaughters, they all want to hear about the trip in detail. I managed to get my doctor to take his family on a trip this past summer to California. They loved it, but I also prepared them well so they could handle any issue that might come up. He has a couple photos up of them on the train.

I think the pro rail group needs to do better marketing in the anti rail states. Even a Govenor who very anti rail, notices when more and more communications from the voters request passenger rail.


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