# New ONR development



## jiml (Mar 15, 2021)

I'm posting this here since it will have the most interest to VIA followers. ONR has been up to some interesting things this past week. I have a friend who lives literally right on their line (it crosses his driveway) who tipped me off that this was coming. Apparently further, more "southerly" tests (not quite to Toronto) are planned. For those who remember the Northlander and the CN/VIA Northland this is an interesting development. Love the new paintjob on ex-GO cars.


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## jiml (Mar 15, 2021)

The first car behind the F7 power unit is a diner btw.


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## PaTrainFan (Mar 15, 2021)

Wouldn't that be a huge development! Many years ago as a kid, rode the old Polar Bear Express to Moosonee. What an experience.


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## jiml (Mar 15, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Wouldn't that be a huge development! Many years ago as a kid, rode the old Polar Bear Express to Moosonee. What an experience.


Connecting service from North Bay to the PBE, even with an overnight stay in ONR's own hotel in Cochrane, would cut off the worst part of the drive from Southern Ontario. The further south they can go the better.


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## Palmetto (Mar 16, 2021)

Why can't they go to Toronto?


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

Unless the train runs through to/from Toronto...what's the point?

I know this is anecdotal.....but anytime I rode the Northlander there was usually a fairly good load from Toronto as far as North Bay....then decreasing north of there and never more than a bus load between North Bay and Cochrane. Same southbound...... increasing toward Toronto.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> Why can't they go to Toronto?



ONR owns the track north of North Bay. They would have to negotiate with CN south of there. That is what they did with the Northlander and right up until the Northlander was discontinued about 9 or so years ago it was always an ONR train. No VIA involvement even on CN between Toronto and North Bay.


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

I once rode the ONR "Slumber-Lounge" overnite bus from Toronto to North Bay... very comfortable roomy seating, I recall. Not sure, but I think they even provided pillows and blankets, and drinking water...
I think this was before they ran their own train into Toronto, and was meant as a connection to their train to Timmins. I believe the fare was higher than that of Gray Coach Lines service between those points...


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## jiml (Mar 16, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Unless the train runs through to/from Toronto...what's the point?


No argument of course, but it's one thing to run a test train on your own tracks as opposed to entering into an agreement for something that might never happen - as you said in your very next post. The plan MAY be to connect to a yet-to-be announced service, which faces an uphill battle. (intentionally worded vaguely)



NS VIA Fan said:


> I know this is anecdotal.....but anytime I rode the Northlander there was usually a fairly good load from Toronto as far as North Bay....then decreasing north of there and never more than a bus load between North Bay and Cochrane. Same southbound...... increasing toward Toronto.


Absolutely agree. I was a regular on the Friday special for an extended period when I had a 9-5 job. It was usually busy, although I didn't travel as far as North Bay. You've defined the market, and unfortunately it doesn't favour ONR unless there's other factors.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

railiner said:


> I once rode the ONR "Slumber-Lounge" overnite bus from Toronto to North Bay... very comfortable roomy seating, I recall. Not sure, but I think they even provided pillows and blankets, and drinking water...
> I think this was before they ran their own train into Toronto, and was meant as a connection to their train to Timmins. I believe the fare was higher than that of Gray Coach Lines service between those points...



I believe ONR began that Slumber Lounge Bus when the jointly operated VIA-ONR 'Northland' was discontinued in Jan. 1990. The Northland ran overnight between Toronto-North Bay-Cochrane-Kapuskasing with coaches and Sleepers.

The daytime 'Northlander' began in the late '70s and originally used the TEE (Trans Europe Express) equipment. This was an entirely ONR train...no VIA involvement.


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## jiml (Mar 16, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> I believe ONR began that Slumber Lounge Bus when the jointly operated VIA-ONR 'Northland' was discontinued in Jan. 1990. The Northland ran overnight between Toronto-North Bay-Cochrane-Kapuskasing with coaches and Sleepers.
> 
> The daytime 'Northlander' began in the late '70s and originally used the TEE (Trans Europe Express) equipment. This was an entirely ONR train...no VIA involvement.


The Northland was a great train and similar to a specific suggestion in the current Ontario government's pre-election plan for rail in the north. The idea was that an overnight train would have much greater "reach" in connecting communities in Northwestern Ontario - especially those with little or no air service - with the capital. This was much to the dismay of those advocating for the return of the Northlander.

The disconnect between VIA and the Northlander was interesting, since it did appear in the VIA timetables and you could purchase a ticket from VIA. The latter became important when ONR reduced the hours at their own ticket office, where one could buy not only rail travel but some very specific memorabilia. (I have an ONR poster on my office wall and a coffee mug purchased there.) Interestingly the Friday night and supplementary weekend train were not operated under the Northlander name - just a number.


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

The Slumber-Lounge bus was definitely started well before the '90's...I'll have to research that if I can locate old timetables, and get back to you on that...


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

I rode the 'Northland' a couple of times in the '70s and '80s. It originated in Kapuskasing (Kap-us-kay-sing) on CN. The Ontario Northland Railway took over at Cochrane....then it was back to CN at North Bay and onto Toronto. 

Here’s the 'Northland' #88 arriving Toronto, Nov. 10, 1974 (and with a colourfull consist):

1500 ON F7A (green & yellow)
6791 CN FPA-4 (red, black & white)
410 ON Baggage (green)
1190 CN Sleeper (6-6-4) 'Green Gables' xBangor & Aroostook (stainless steel)
821 ON Coach (xCPR) (green)
4885 CN Grill-Lounge (xGTW) (black & white)
810 ON Coach xBangor & Aroostook (stainless steel) 
2091 CN Sleeper (10-6) "Skeena River" xNYC 'Saugus River' (black & white)
2100 CN Sleeper (14-4) "Horseshoe Falls" xSt Louis/San Francisco 'Gascoanda River'(black & white)

As the Northland made its way south it underwent quite a transformation along the way and the consist expanded considerably.

-Train originated in Kapuskasing on CN with 6791, 410, 1190 & 821.
-At Cochrane ONR took over and 4885 was added.
-810 & sleeper 2091 thru from Timmins were added at Porquis Jct.
-1500 & sleeper 2100 thru from Noranda were added at Englehart.

I had a roomette in 'Green Gables' a former Bangor & Aroostook sleeper. I wanted to stay awake for North Bay to follow our route through the city......an important junction (then) on the east-west CN & CP transcontinental mainlines, crossed by the north-south ONR-CN route. But with the comfortable roomette.....I slept right through!


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

railiner said:


> The Slumber-Lounge bus was definitely started well before the '90's..........




Perhaps it was in 1988? I have book on the history of ON and it says 2 buses were acquired in 1988 with 'new features' including TVs, movies and a music system.

Just two years prior in '86...ON had planned to acquire GO type Bi-Levels cars outfitted for a new overnight train including Coaches, Diner/Lounge and Sleepers but it went nowhere.

Here was the proposed Diner/Lounge.


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm thinking it was back in the MC-8 era, but I could certainly be wrong. Read one of my own posts made here earlier, where I thought that it was actually a pool with Gray Coach Lines, with Gray Coach drivers south of North Bay, driving ONR owned coaches...
I need to locate some old Official Bus Guides to know for sure....


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

railiner said:


> I'm thinking it was back in the MC-8 era, but I could certainly be wrong. Read one of my own posts made here earlier, where I thought that it was actually a pool with Gray Coach Lines, with Gray Coach drivers south of North Bay, driving ONR owned coaches...
> I need to locate some old Official Bus Guides to know for sure....




Well look here!  (1978)


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

Good find!  

I remember there was a graphic panel touting the service, when it started up...it featured the ZZZZZZZ logo when promoting the Slumber Lounge...maybe in Gray Coach section?


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

railiner said:


> I remember there was a graphic panel touting the service, when it started up...it featured the ZZZZZZZ logo............




Here ya go!




And only 'Some Seats' were No Smoking!.....Must have been an enjoyable overnight trip!


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## jiml (Mar 16, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Perhaps it was in 1988? I have book on the history of ON and it says 2 buses were acquired in 1988 with 'new features' including TVs, movies and a music system.
> 
> Just two years prior in '86...ON had planned to acquire GO type Bi-Levels cars outfitted for a new overnight train including Coaches, Diner/Lounge and Sleepers but it went nowhere.
> 
> ...


This was a modification of the earlier proposal for VIA from Hawker-Siddeley/UTDC/Bombardier after VIA tested Superliners. Also went nowhere. Do you have the sleeper drawing as well? I've seen both versions but do not have a copy.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2021)

jiml said:


> Do you have the sleeper drawing as well?



That's all I have and captured that from a web page.


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Here ya go!
> 
> View attachment 21174
> 
> ...


Love it!
And I had completely forgotten that Gray Coach had what Trailways called "5 Star Service" with a hostess and snacks, and Greyhound called "Bus Plus" for the few years they ran it on the NEC...
Great find!


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2021)

Gray Coach sure operated a great variety of services, in those years. On the Toronto<>Sudbury route, they ran thru buses from New York City that went all the way to Calgary in a pool with EGL and GLC. Gray Coach Lines driver's were the only non-Greyhound drivers ever to operate MC-6 'Supercruiser's'...until they were disposed of.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 17, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> And only 'Some Seats' were No Smoking!.....Must have been an enjoyable overnight trip!



Back in the "good old days," all buses allowed smoking in the back of the bus. In college, I used to ride the dog from Chicago the Beloit. As we pulled out of the old Greyhound Terminal in the Loop, the driver, in his "welcome aboard" announcement would always emphasize that there was "_*cigarette*_ smoking, only in the last 5 rows." You could hear his emphasis on "cigarette, and I was sure what he really meant was that the only smoke he wanted smell was that of tobacco.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Back in the "good old days," all buses allowed smoking in the back of the bus. In college, I used to ride the dog from Chicago the Beloit. As we pulled out of the old Greyhound Terminal in the Loop, the driver, in his "welcome aboard" announcement would always emphasize that there was "_*cigarette*_ smoking, only in the last 5 rows." You could hear his emphasis on "cigarette, and I was sure what he really meant was that the only smoke he wanted smell was that of tobacco.


I remember those days from when I was in the Navy and rode the Dog from San Francisco to Washington DC, 4days and 4 nights of " Never again"!
( one could smell smoke from the back that wasnt Tobacco around San Francisco)


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## MARC Rider (Mar 17, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I remember those days from when I was in the Navy and rode the Dog from San Francisco to Washington DC, 4days and 4 nights of " Never again"!
> ( one could smell smoke from the back that wasnt Tobacco around San Francisco)


Fortunately for me, the ride from Chicago to Beloit was only two hours. Kids today have it easy, they can take the Van Galder bus to Beloit directly from either O'Hare or Midway, or even Union Station. No need to transfer with luggage to Jefferson Park or the Loop. And no stinky tobacco or other smoking materials.


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