# Amtrak buses break down



## Amstruck (Jul 20, 2015)

Buses connecting Bakersfield and Los Angeles often break down causing long delay and connection failures. The service is operated by contractors who are friends with Caltrans officials. Go figure! Some Amtrak trains in California are run by the state's most corrupt agency.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jul 20, 2015)

Amstruck said:


> Buses connecting Bakersfield and Los Angeles often break down causing long delay and connection failures. The service is operated by contractors who are friends with Caltrans officials. Go figure! Some Amtrak trains in California are run by the state's most corrupt agency.


I think I'd like a Citation on this!
Generally the Thruway buses in California are excellent with guaranteed connections to trains, good equipment and pro drivers!

The outfit that replaced Amrrak to run the Trains in the Bay Area, Herzog, has an excellent reputation, and has done a good job wherever they have gotten transportation contracts.( including getting the long delayed Red Line up and running here in Austin when Veolia screwed the pooch!)

The Political thing is a whole another kettle of fish, all political deals have some corruption involved, but California deals are rather clean compared to States like Illinois,New Jersey and New York.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 20, 2015)

He's got a point. Those Thruway buses are Van Hools and D4505s. Neither are considered particularly reliable, with the former being less reliable than the latter. But the D4505 is still a POS IMO.

Jim is right about New Jersey. NJT keeps ordering massive amounts of D4500CTs, a derivative of the D4505, even though MCI, the manufacturer, has severely dropped quality. Competitor Prevost offers a better product now, but NJT just ordered 772 D4500CTs again. Clearly, there is corruption between NJT and MCI.

That being said, MCI has somewhat improved for this order with a more efficient DD13 engine and new interior and suspension.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 20, 2015)

Amstruck said:


> Buses connecting Bakersfield and Los Angeles often break down causing long delay and connection failures.


Until I moved just about a year ago, I rode the Thruway Motorcoaches from Bakersfield to the LA several times a month for 4 years and never had one break down on me.
That being said the reality is this... breakdowns happen, especially when you're turning and burning coaches over a steep mountain pass.

When I first started riding the buses, they were much older (but still reliable) and within the last 3 years the state forced the largest operator to replace most of the coaches on the route. Now most (if not all) runs use newer buses equipped with seat belts, WiFi and power outlets.

I'm not sure what more can be done. Breakdowns happen, even to the best built and best maintained vehicles.



Amstruck said:


> The service is operated by contractors who are friends with Caltrans officials. Go figure! Some Amtrak trains in California are run by the state's most corrupt agency.


[citation needed]
Within the last few weeks the agency that controls the San Joaquin just changed from Caltrans to a new locally-controlled joint powers authority.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> NJT keeps ordering massive amounts of D4500CTs, a derivative of the D4505, even though MCI, the manufacturer, has severely dropped quality. Competitor Prevost offers a better product now, but NJT just ordered 772 D4500CTs again. Clearly, there is corruption between NJT and MCI.


Once again Swad steers this thread totally off course.MCI won the NJT bid for one reason... price. Not corruption.

MCI is willing to cut their profit margins to the bone to ensure their production lines continue humming for the next 7 years.


----------



## tp49 (Jul 20, 2015)

Amstruck said:


> Buses connecting Bakersfield and Los Angeles often break down causing long delay and connection failures. The service is operated by contractors who are friends with Caltrans officials. Go figure! Some Amtrak trains in California are run by the state's most corrupt agency.


Caltrans isn't even in the top five of the state's most corrupt agencies.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2015)

GMAB. Forget about NJT. Let's just talk corruption. "The government is not corrupt. There is no corruption involved in orders. It's all fair and square".

Cut your margins, built a POS, send some kickbacks, deal.


----------



## jis (Jul 21, 2015)

I would really be interested in seeing some incontrovertible evidence of kickback. I know it is the fashionable thing to throw about claims of "government corruption", but I don't pay much attention to unsubstantiated claims of such.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2015)

Yeah, if there were proof, there wouldn't be corruption.

It's like the military's secret weapons. They will never release proof of their most advanced weapons. But we all know it's there.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 21, 2015)

jis said:


> I would really be interested in seeing some incontrovertible evidence of kickback. I know it is the fashionable thing to throw about claims of "government corruption", but I don't pay much attention to unsubstantiated claims of such.


+1



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, if there were proof, there wouldn't be corruption.
> 
> It's like the military's secret weapons. They will never release proof of their most advanced weapons. But we all know it's there.


If you're going to make an unfalsifiable claim... the burden of proof still lies on you.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2015)

Like I said, there's no way to prove corruption until the corrupt people are uncovered, which may never happen. So while the burden of proof lies on me, that is a burden I cannot fulfill, as I am not an investigator.

That being said, in my opinion, and in Jim's opinion, large government contracts are inherently corrupt. I believe in the Chinese saying: No official is not corrupt and every official is a liar.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 21, 2015)

I honestly don't think MCI bribed anyone to get the contract. I suspect they just bid lower than Prevost. I would love to see the scoring sheets and the actual bid proposals, but it appears that NJT doesn't automatically release that information.

From my seat it seems like MCI is willing to cut their profit margins to the bone to ensure that the D series production line continues to keep humming for the next 7 years. If MCI lost the contract I would venture to guess that the D series production line would be very slow, if non existent.

Bottom line: There's a lot of MCI employees and contractors that get to keep their jobs because of this deal.

This isn't a rare thing in the manufacturing world. In fact Boeing just sold 50 767 freighters to FedEx at a razor thin margin... but it keeps the production line up and running for at least another 6 years.

Now speaking of somewhat shady deals... Prevost has an edge on any future New York MTA orders because they get extra credit in the scoring because the buses get built in NY. That means Prevost could win even if they're not the best qualified or lowest bidder.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 22, 2015)

Ricky, I agree with you, but I just don't see how $511k per unit is a good price for a poor bus, especially for such a large order. Perhaps it was quality cuts, rather than profit cuts. Or perhaps Prevost simply couldn't get that many buses built in time.

The way I see it is pretty simple. We know the New D's are not very good, or inconsistent at best. Yet NJT keeps ordering huge numbers of them. They're not very cheap, and not very good.

I apologize for going OT, but the buses in question are also New D's, a model that likely wouldn't even be in production if not for NJT.


----------



## calwatch (Jul 22, 2015)

Incidentally Caltrans Division of Rail (now Rail and Mass Transportation) still handles the bus contract, NOT the JPAs. Because of the network connections they will handle the bus system for the foreseeable future, although routes that are only dedicated to one train may end up turned over to the JPAs. Some JPAs have interesting ideas for cutting costs: in one of the original SJJPA Draft Business Plan documents there was talk of combining the Victorville and Inland Empire buses into a milk run route going from the Coachella Valley to Bakersfield via the Antelope Valley. Amtrak California buses in my experience are pretty reliable although they have their quirks.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 22, 2015)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ricky, I agree with you, but I just don't see how $511k per unit is a good price for a poor bus, especially for such a large order. Perhaps it was quality cuts, rather than profit cuts. Or perhaps Prevost simply couldn't get that many buses built in time.
> 
> The way I see it is pretty simple. We know the New D's are not very good, or inconsistent at best. Yet NJT keeps ordering huge numbers of them. They're not very cheap, and not very good.


No they're very cheap. We're talking around $495k per coach once you remove the value of the warrantee contract and spare parts. It's likely in the neighborhood of a 10 percent discount. That seems incredibly low to me.

Having never rode on a D4500CT operated by NJT, I have no frame of reference. They may have lots of experience dealing with MCI coaches.

I prefer Prevost too, but I've honestly never had an issue on a D4500CT.

From my slightly educated opinion it seems like MCI was bidding aggressively on this order so they can keep the D series production line up and running, while Prevost was less aggressive because they can make more money on a future New York MTA order. What's interesting to me is to see who wins the smaller 5 to 50 bus orders over the next seven years. Those orders tend to have higher margins, but with two players, there could be more of a fight.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I apologize for going OT, but the buses in question are also New D's, a model that likely wouldn't even be in production if not for NJT.


The coach in question could also be a C2045. Despite the shortcomings of the D4505 and the C2045, I've found them to be totally acceptable coaches in Amtrak California service. They're all late model coaches and seem to be well maintained.
Just because Greyhound's D4505 coaches suck, doesn't mean they suck universally.



calwatch said:


> Amtrak California buses in my experience are pretty reliable although they have their quirks.


That's been my experience too, which is why I was surprised by the original post. I've also noticed that after making these claims of corruption the OP has never returned to back them up.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 22, 2015)

I like the D4500CT too, but I'm not sure why it's better than the D4505. Maybe it's just the mileage. Or maybe Amtrak California's D4505s have deteriorated rapidly after you moved to Seattle.


----------



## Caesar La Rock (Jul 23, 2015)

Hundreds of companies in the US and Canada operate Van Hools. Anyone having issues with them, most likely are terrible at maintaining buses in general. MCI won NJT's contract by a fluke and yes I can call the reason why they won a fluke, which was over a couple small things.

Prevost and Van Hool (yes Van Hool bidded on this) didn't feature larger destination signs like the D4500CT. Van Hool's rear lift on the CX45 also was a factor in why it didn't win either. Even if it wasn't, neither Van Hool nor Prevost were going to win anyway, because of the destination sign issue.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 23, 2015)

How does Van Hool comply with Buy America?


----------



## Caesar La Rock (Jul 23, 2015)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How does Van Hool comply with Buy America?


ABC Companies, they distribute them. Even the DD13 engine used on the CX45 and TX40/45s meet the EPA regulations. They do come optional with the ISX though.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 23, 2015)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How does Van Hool comply with Buy America?


There are ways...Basically Buy America means that more than half of the purchase price needs to be spent in America. So Van Hool could meet the requirement if more than half of the assembly cost is spent in America and if more than half of the parts are made in America.

Take transit bus builder New Flyer... they source a lot of American parts, do initial assembly in Canada and truck the coaches down to America for final assembly.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jul 23, 2015)

THE CJ said:


> Hundreds of companies in the US and Canada operate Van Hools. Anyone having issues with them, most likely are terrible at maintaining buses in general. MCI won NJT's contract by a fluke and yes I can call the reason why they won a fluke, which was over a couple small things.
> 
> Prevost and Van Hool (yes Van Hool bidded on this) didn't feature larger destination signs like the D4500CT. Van Hool's rear lift on the CX45 also was a factor in why it didn't win either. Even if it wasn't, neither Van Hool nor Prevost were going to win anyway, because of the destination sign issue.


I've heard these theories before... and I just don't buy them.

Redesigning the front end of a coach to accommodate a full width destination sign isn't _THAT _hard. It's a new fiberglass cap and a new windshield. It's not something a coach builder would do for an agency ordering 10 coaches... but we're talking about 772 coaches here. If both companies didn't offer to build NJT a coach with a full width destination sign... they'd be crazy.

Same thing is true for a mid-ship wheelchair lift. As Greyhound's 102DL3 retrofits show... it's not hard to add a door to the middle of a coach and a lift to the luggage compartment. If Van Hool didn't offer to build NJT a coach with mid-ship wheelchair lift... they'd be crazy.

As far as I can tell MCI won on one factor...price.

They're willing to cut their profit margins to the bare bones and build the D4500CT for less than 500k per unit.

I don't think Prevost or Van Hool was willing or capable to build their respective coaches at such narrow profit margins.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 23, 2015)

I'm still thinking MCI cut quality. After all, you don't need a super-sturdy bus to run 700,000 miles.


----------



## Caesar La Rock (Jul 23, 2015)

NJT, no one knows what goes on within that system. As they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Other transit systems will look at Prevost and Van Hool for motorcoaches. Of course I will say this, the D4500CT is probably not going to be around for long.

This NJT order might be the last big order for the D4500s. Not to take anything away from the D4500's reliability and durability, but it's a coach, whose design goes all the way back to the MC-8s.

With Setra, Temsa, Van Hool, Volvo Group, and so forth introducing newer coaches to the US market, the D4500s will soon go the way of the RTS. There is word even Gillig is considering building a tour coach, on top of an articulated bus in the near future.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 24, 2015)

NJT is going to order another 700-ish coaches in the future, which may prolong the life of the D4500CT. But yeah, the design goes back to the MC-1 of 1958 and the X3-45 design also goes back to 1966 (Super Panoramique).

It's about time some new bus designs hit the market.


----------

