# Broadway Ltd./RIP



## Bob Dylan (Sep 10, 2015)

Today marks the 20th Anniversary of the last hurrah of the Late and Great Broadway Ltd.

Even though Amtrak ran the Three Rivers for awhile before it too was killed, as the saying goes, "There is No Substitute!"

Those of you fortunate enough to have ridden it ( stupid me didn't even though I could have) have a great memory, we won't see its like again!


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## Chaz (Sep 10, 2015)

Train Orders has a thread from yesterday on the Broadway's last run. Gene Poon started it & claims to have been the last sleeper passenger on it

Gene calls himself the last first class passenger in the history of the Bway Ltfd!

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3839072

Others chime in.


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## Lonestar648 (Sep 10, 2015)

I rode the Broadway Limited in its last year under Amtrak, but also as my first train trip by myself as a teen (NYP - PIT). Certainly miss those trips and the ones in between, it was a great train. I also rode the Three Rivers several times (CHI - HAR or PHL) when it had a Viewliner Sleeper. I could work in the privacy of my room and still enjoy the mountains and Horseshoe Curve in Pennsylvania.


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## jis (Sep 10, 2015)

I rode the Broadway Limited many times.between 1979 and 1995. on both its original Fort Wayne routing and near the end on its Youngstown routing, both in Coach earlier on during my student days, in Slumbercoach during the early 80s through 1995. Never rode it in Sleeper. Did not have the money to do so back then. It was wonderful while it lasted.


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## Everydaymatters (Sep 10, 2015)

It's hard to believe that already it is at least 20 years since I rode the Broadway Ltd. with my sister. We went to see our other sister in Ohio. Yes, great memories.


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## jis (Sep 10, 2015)

There was something special about passing through Canton, Crestline, Fort Wayne and Valparaiso though. Alas by the time the Broadway was canceled it had already lost its original route and was was running on the rails of one of the historical rival of the Pennsy and was not quite the Broadway anymore.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 10, 2015)

My first overnight trip on Amtrak was on the BL. I had traveled from CHI to HAR coming back from and returning to college for the holiday break. Then they canceled it. I believe at least one time I was on the train which was the Pennsylvanian and Capitol Limited joined at or split at PGH and I took several trips on the TR. Once I found it, I never wanted to fly to Chicago again.

The Capital/Pennsylvanian through cars need to happen! It was in the Performance Improvement Plan back in 2010 (five years ago!) The LSL is really two trains that split/join at ALB (one to NYP and one to BOS). Why can't they duplicate that with the Capitol the same way? That way all four of the largest cities on the NEC (BOS, NYP, PHL, and WAS) can have direct service to CHI (in addition to the rest of PA between PGH and HAR).

I am hoping once the Viewliner II's come in that they will be able to make the change. Anyone who rode on and misses the BL (or TR) is hoping this connection is made.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 10, 2015)

Now you're getting our points, welcome to the real world of Amtrak! We totally agree with you on this!

As I said, I was dumb and never rode the Broadway when I had the chance! I chose the 20th Century Ltd. instead. (I was heavily influenced by "North by Northwest!")


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## jis (Sep 10, 2015)

Philly, there are two things standing in the way. One is equipment shortage, which will be resolved with the arrival of the VLII Sleepers, though for the life of me I cannot understand why they cannot go forward with simple coach connection like they initially did with then Three Rivers. The second, and perhaps more important is that a crossover from the through track to the siding was taken out. This needs to be re-installed in order to provide adequate trackage to do the necessary shunting of cars. Allegedly there is money to do it already in place, and yet nothing has happened for several years. The ways of Amtrak are indeed very mysterious.


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## looshi (Sep 10, 2015)

From what I understand the hold-up is waiting for the new sleepers and the connection will be put back in when they are ready.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 10, 2015)

No need to wait on the Sleepers ( which probably won't show up till 2017!!),

As jis said they could run a cut out Coach or Coaches, and PVs could use the Crossover until its needed when/if the ViewlinerIIs ever enter Service.

Maybe they'll even spruce up the PGH dungeon, er waiting room a little!


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## greatcats (Sep 10, 2015)

Jim! Stop picking on Pittsburgh station. Pick on the politicians and other bureaucrats instead! That station is not such a bad place, although I remember the old one entering through the impressive rotunda driveway.


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## railiner (Sep 10, 2015)

As a relative latecomer, to the world of railfanning (I was about 20), I just missed the end of the All-Pullman days of the Broadway Limited, concurrent with the end of the PRR in 1967, In 1968, with the Penn Central merger, the 'real' Broadway ended, and they took the schedule and train numbers of the General, along with its coaches, and renamed it Broadway Limited. The other contemporary all Pullman trains also added coaches in 1968...the Panama Limited added the 'Magnolia Star' section, and the Super Chief combined with the El Capitan except for peak holiday periods. The 20th Century Limited added coaches ten years earlier (1958). And the Century (as did all former NYC trains), became a nameless train between GCT and Chicago in 1968.

So while the Broadway was definitely not living in its former glory. the Penn Central still accorded it extra attention, and assigned the best equipment they could put together for its operation. And it still was 'given the railroad' and handled with pride by the employees that were assigned to it. I recall taking one trip with a staunch PRR partisan from New York to Harrisburg, basically just to enjoy dinner in the twin-unit diner. After finishing a delicious multi-course steak dinner, and dessert, the veteran waiter came over to our table offering a selection of fresh apples in a basket. My friend was reminiscing and mentioned that the pats of butter used to have keystone designs in them. When the waiter overheard that, his face lit up like a hundred watt light bulb....."Here...have another apple", he offered with an ear to ear grin.

When Amtrak took over its operation in 1971, one of the first things they did was send some of the best sleepers and coaches they had to upgrade the Broadway. For the first time, the Broadway had legrest coaches that used to run on the western transcontinental trains. (formerly only footrests)....

When I lived in Colorado, I made at least one or two trips every year for over ten years back to NYC on the Broadway. Loved the Slumbercoaches best of all. When the Broadway went all HEP, they once again heavily promoted it. I still have a sticker from that campaign on a grip that reads" "Broadway Limited" ...Route of Royal Treatment.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 10, 2015)

Well Eric, anyone that saw it in its prime ( along with KCY,STL Union, NYP,Detroit,Indy,Buffalo, CIN,DAL,SAS, T&P in FTW etc.)is disappointed when they see what's there now!.

All I'm asking for is to Sprucce it up a little. Better seating, lighting, some decent snack and drink options etc.

I realize Amtrak doesn't own them, and you are correct, our leaders and the corporations that own them are to blame!


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 10, 2015)

Great posts about the Broadway folks! I'm even madder @ myself for never taking itvwhen I had the chance, both Pre-Amtrak and after the downgrades.

I too loved having the old timer OBS that took pride in their train and their jobs, including most of the Conductors and Engineers!

I especially liked riding out of GCT but also liked the Old NYP that is now a dungeon under an Arena ( MSG) that is not all that great itself!

Thanks, these are the stories that are priceless! Glad I was there for part of the Golden era of Passenger Trains!


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## Carolyn Jane (Sep 11, 2015)

I rode the Broadway from NYP to CHI in 1966. As a nursing student, we had a month off in the summer. I usually rode one of the other Penny trains home via Lewistown, but my parents were in their usual summer venue of rural(very) north central MO. I had a roomette, and I don't recall it being that expensive. From CHI, I think I rode the Burlington to Chariton, IA. CJ


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## RPC (Sep 11, 2015)

I rode the BL many times in the early 90's visiting my then fiancée. I normally got a single slumber; the upper single slumber room remains probably my favorite accommodation. I knew I was a regular when I came into the diner in Indiana one morning and the waiter said, "The usual?"


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## jis (Sep 11, 2015)

RPC said:


> I rode the BL many times in the early 90's visiting my then fiancée. I normally got a single slumber; the upper single slumber room remains probably my favorite accommodation.


Upper single slumber was my favorite too. I usually did Breakfast in the Diner, but I usually avoided Dinner in the Diner, Couldn't afford it in my prevailing financial condition back in the '80s, as a graduate student on a Fellowship, or as a fresh out of school employee paying off stuff.


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## railiner (Sep 11, 2015)

The upper level Single Slumber's were the choice of most experienced riders for several reasons....one...they felt less 'claustrophobic while you sat in the seat...two...the slightly elevated position gave a marginally better view, and afforded a bit more privacy at night if you were in bed at a station stop with the shade raised....

That said, while most of the Slumbercoaches were of the "24-8" design, (24 single split between upper and lower, and 8 doubles), there were a handful that were converted from all Roomette cars, that were of the "16-10" design (16 singles and 10 doubles). Those in the know, tried to book Single Rooms 1,2,3, and 4.....as these were "secret bonus rooms".....they were the same size room as the doubles, including the larger window, but only had one Slumbercoach sized bed within, The other singles, 5 thru 16 were of the usual duplex upper and lower design. Why the anomaly I can't say....only speculated that when first converted, they may have been designed as 12 single, 14 double, but the marketing people changed their minds along the way.... IIRC, Amtrak ran these cars more often on the Lake Shore Ltd., appropriately, to their ex-NYC origins...


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 11, 2015)

Like jis said, I would usually have Breakfast in the Diner on the way into ATL, or rolling thru Virginia while heading back to WAS on the Crescent in my Slumber Coach room.

I can still taste the Sunnyside Up Eggs,Virginia Ham, Grits, Biskets with Real Butter and Railroad Coffee served in a real China cup and on a White Table Cloth! Sometimes it would be Real Railroad French Toast! Yummmmm.

The Cost was an astounding $1.75-$2.25 which was a lot for a young Government worker just starting out!

I too never had Dinner in the Diner while riding in a Slumber Coach, 'cause I couldn't afford it!


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## railiner (Sep 11, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Like jis said, I would usually have Breakfast in the Diner on the way into ATL, or rolling thru Virginia while heading back to WAS on the Crescent in my Slumber Coach room.
> 
> I can still taste the Sunnyside Up Eggs,Virginia Ham, Grits, Biskets with Real Butter and Railroad Coffee served in a real China cup and on a White Table Cloth! Sometimes it would be Real Railroad French Toast! Yummmmm.
> 
> ...


Now you've done it, Jim....got me nostalgic over those Southern Railway ads with Chef Louis Price extolling the "everything made from scratch" Southern Crescent diner fare....remember those muffins's?


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## GG-1 (Sep 12, 2015)

Aloha

The Broadway Limited was my second long distance train ride. I rode it from Philly to Chicago about 4 months before they killed it. It was part of a round trip from Hawaii to Florida and Back, obviously some planes were included in the trip. Islanders are still waiting for the railroad bridge to the left coast.


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## railiner (Sep 12, 2015)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> The Broadway Limited was my second long distance train ride. I rode it from Philly to Chicago about 4 months before they killed it. It was part of a round trip from Hawaii to Florida and Back, obviously some planes were included in the trip. Islanders are still waiting for the railroad bridge to the left coast.


Well, riding to Honolulu on United's Super DC-8-63, was kind of like being on a train to "their little corner of the world".....the cabin certainly appeared long enough to be one...


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## CoachSlumber (Sep 23, 2015)

railiner said:


> The upper level Single Slumber's were the choice of most experienced riders for several reasons....one...they felt less 'claustrophobic while you sat in the seat...two...the slightly elevated position gave a marginally better view, and afforded a bit more privacy at night if you were in bed at a station stop with the shade raised....
> 
> That said, while most of the Slumbercoaches were of the "24-8" design, (24 single split between upper and lower, and 8 doubles), there were a handful that were converted from all Roomette cars, that were of the "16-10" design (16 singles and 10 doubles). Those in the know, tried to book Single Rooms 1,2,3, and 4.....as these were "secret bonus rooms".....they were the same size room as the doubles, including the larger window, but only had one Slumbercoach sized bed within, The other singles, 5 thru 16 were of the usual duplex upper and lower design. Why the anomaly I can't say....only speculated that when first converted, they may have been designed as 12 single, 14 double, but the marketing people changed their minds along the way.... IIRC, Amtrak ran these cars more often on the Lake Shore Ltd., appropriately, to their ex-NYC origins...


Yes! My first overnight train ride was the Broadway in the mid-'70s, and I had one of those Secret Slumbercoach Singles.


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## CoachSlumber (Sep 23, 2015)

My first overnight ride was on the Broadway in the mid-'70s. Slumbercoach ( I got one of those "secret" double-sized single rooms.) Before I finally got to ride it, I used to go down to Penn Station and see off the Broadway departure, at the traditional time of 4:55. We could go down to the platform, and the porters would even let us board the sleeping cars and gawk. Frangrace from the logs burning in the double-diner filled the air. I was so excited when I finally got to ride it


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## railiner (Sep 23, 2015)

The 4:55 PM departure time of the original Amtrak Broadway Limited was a carryover from Penn Central. The time and PC train number (49) was that of the former "General".

The traditional PRR Broadway Limited departed at 6:00 PM for a long period, (as did the NYC Century)....


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## neroden (Sep 27, 2015)

There's so much commuter traffic now that we are never going to see a 6 PM departure for a long-distance train out of New York again. It makes too much sense to have it leave before the commuter rush or after the commuter rush...


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## railiner (Sep 27, 2015)

neroden said:


> There's so much commuter traffic now that we are never going to see a 6 PM departure for a long-distance train out of New York again. It makes too much sense to have it leave before the commuter rush or after the commuter rush...


Agreed....and another reason is that it is no longer used much for business travel. as in the glory days. Back then, you could spend a full day of business in New York, catch the train, and arrive in Chicago at 9:00 AM (CT), for a full business day there.....


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## Seaboard92 (Sep 28, 2015)

And if you were in a large business you could have a full day in New Orleans with the Panama Limited


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## railiner (Sep 28, 2015)

Another long distance train scheduled to allow a full day of business at origin and destination, was the Denver Zephyr....."overnight, Every night".....

And its rival, The City of Denver, as well.....

And if you want to extend the type to include two-niter's, the Super Chief also left Chicago at the end of the business day, and arrived Los Angeles early on the second morning allowing full days before and after....

There were many other examples around the country.......


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## ainamkartma (Sep 29, 2015)

railiner said:


> Another long distance train scheduled to allow a full day of business at origin and destination, was the Denver Zephyr....."overnight, Every night".....
> 
> And its rival, The City of Denver, as well.....
> 
> ...


And even today... SWC leaves ABQ at 4:45 and arrives Los Angeles at 8:15 AM. My colleagues and I use it for business travel on a semi-regular basis westbound. Unfortunately, the eastbound schedule doesn't work so well (18:15-11:42), so we typically have to fly that direction.

(Only about one hour slower than the Super Chief of 1956... Not too shabby, actually.)

Ainamkartma


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## railiner (Sep 29, 2015)

The Crescent is also pretty good between Washington and Atlanta. And the Capitol isn't bad, at least westbound.....


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## neroden (Oct 26, 2015)

For most business trips, people are OK with departing after rush hour (gives you a chance to see the town), but not so happy with the before-rush-hour departures... and arranging an appropriate morning arrival is harder, because 'before rush hour' is so early.


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