# A Domestic Flight but ‘International’



## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

I couldnt work VIA's 'Ocean' into my schedule so I returned home last week from Montreal to Halifax (YUL-YHZ) on an Air Canada A-330-300 widebody. A combination of Metro and Bus got me to the Airport in plenty of time for my flight at 1:40pm:


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

Although a domestic flight.....we spent nearly half the time in US airspace over the State of Maine.....roughly following above the route of VIA's long-gone 'Atlantic'

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA664/history/20180924/1750Z/CYUL/CYHZ

Here we're over Greenville, Maine.....Interstate I-95 just north of Bangor......then crossing the US-Canadian border: Maine and US-1 along the coast on the left and St Andrews-by-the-Sea, New Brunswick on the point of land as we head out over the Bay of Fundy:


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

Starting our decent over the Nova Scotia coast and the Annapolis Valley....then on into Halifax


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

As we touch-down in Halifax I spot Korean Air over on the cargo ramp....then onto the gate:

61 minutes in the air

80 minutes gate to gate


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## GBNorman (Oct 5, 2018)

Well, I see I'm not the only one around here for whom "flightseeing" is part of the air travel experience.


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## AutoTrDvr (Oct 5, 2018)

It would be interesting to see if the service crew has to operate any differently while flying over USA "airspace" than not... I know, for example for some jetway routes. they have/had to stop serving alcohol when flying over the airspace of certain states.... Not that there would be much enforcement unless someone was, actually, on the flight, but...


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> Well, I see I'm not the only one around here for whom "flightseeing" is part of the air travel experience.


Yes.....always a window seat for me!


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

AutoTrDvr said:


> It would be interesting to see if the service crew has to operate any differently while flying over USA "airspace" than not... I know, for example for some jetway routes. they have/had to stop serving alcohol when flying over the airspace of certain states.... Not that there would be much enforcement unless someone was, actually, on the flight, but...


Just about every flight between the Maritimes and central Canada is in US airspace over Maine. Easily 100+ flights/day and I've never noticed any difference in service. The beer I had would have been served about a half hour into the flight.... so somewhere around Brownville Jct.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 5, 2018)

I believe a lot of flights between Vancouver and Toronto also fly over US Airspace as well.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I believe a lot of flights between Vancouver and Toronto also fly over US Airspace as well.


And in reverse:

BOS, EWR, LGA to MSP will probably be over Ontario and just about anything from the Lower to Alaska.


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

Then again, some Seattle to New York flights do fly over Canadian airspace as do flights from the lower 48 to Alaska. These are all governed by the ICAO First Freedom of the Air rules and related bilateral or multilateral agreements. The individual States within a Country entering such agreements have very little say in those matters..

During times of hostility First Freedom rights sometimes do get suspended. During 1971 for example Indian planes were not allowed to overfly Pakistan and vice versa, which was a way bigger headache for Pakistan since they had to circumnavigate India to get to East Pakistan until mid-December when East Pakistan ceased to be a part of Pakistan. Then it was just India's headache to avoid Pakistan on the way to Europe, until the whole thing went away as a result of the Simla Accord.

Hopefully US and Canada will not get into such levels of hostility anytime soon.

Incidentally, Americans sometimes are very surprised to learn that Iran allows overflight of its territory by US Commercial flights. Afterall, why not collect some revenue from overflight fees? Couple of time the United flight that I was on overflew close to Meshad.


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## cpotisch (Oct 5, 2018)

I always go for a window seat but not for the "scenery" in the air. I like being able to see the other planes and the runway when we're on the ground. When we're in the air, I could really care less. Yes, the clouds and cities below can be nice, but IMO absolutely any Amtrak train has better scenery than a plane in the air.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 5, 2018)

Nice pics,makes me want to visit the Maritimes again (in the Summer!) Thanks for sharing!


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

On a ten+ hour flight, if I am in the back I tend to go for an aisle seat unless I can find a bulkhead window seat. On shorter flights I tend to go for window seats.

And yes, I actually do care a lot about viewing what we are passing over if clouds or haze (or lack thereof) allows.

I will never forget the sight of flying over ice sheets with huge cracks across them as we flew across the North Pole at relatively low altitude due to Solar activity that day (Singapore Airlines EWR-SIN A345), or the sight of Mt. Everest and Lhotse as we flew by them (China Southern Lhasa - Kathmandu 757), or the brightly lit border fence between India and Pakistan near Lahore/Amritsar (UA EWR-DEL/BOM 772ER or LH FRA-DEL A380), London City on approach from the East into LHR various airlines and aircraft) and of course the Grand Canyon, Mt. Hood, Mt. Rainier etc. etc.


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

Spectacular photography, as usual...thanks so much, for taking us along!

I used to love flying overnite "redeye" flights, because I found they were almost always in clear skies, and I could figure out where I was, by seeing the lights or water reflection's, below.

Back in the days of no map displays, the Captain would often tell us our planned route, and by using the inflight magazine map, and my watch, I could keep track of where we were...


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

On airlines like SAS and Lufthansa and even Air India, they would post a map with the planned route penciled on it somewhere by the galley. I still remeber our routing from Delhi to London via Moscow on AI 505, my first flight, back in 1965.


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

jis said:


> Then again, some Seattle to New York flights do fly over Canadian airspace as do flights from the lower 48 to Alaska. These are all governed by the ICAO First Freedom of the Air rules and related bilateral or multilateral agreements. The individual States within a Country entering such agreements have very little say in those matters..
> 
> During times of hostility First Freedom rights sometimes do get suspended. During 1971 for example Indian planes were not allowed to overfly Pakistan and vice versa, which was a way bigger headache for Pakistan since they had to circumnavigate India to get to East Pakistan until mid-December when East Pakistan ceased to be a part of Pakistan. Then it was just India's headache to avoid Pakistan on the way to Europe, until the whole thing went away as a result of the Simla Accord.
> 
> ...


One of the busiest of US domestic routes, Chicago-New York, as short as it is, often cuts across SW Ontario.

Speaking of surprised...I remember well before we 'normalized' relations with Cuba, they were allowed to fly right over Washington, on Havana to Canada flights.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

Just give me a window seat and the IFE moving map.....That's all the entertainment I need


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## AutoTrDvr (Oct 5, 2018)

For those that like window seats for the in air view (as I always do), how many had issues with either pax. or crew demanding they leave the shade down because others were trying to sleep??? If I paid all that $$$ for a window seat, I'd want to use it!



I had to resort to things like taking the blanket and draping over myself so that the sun wouldn't shine through.... <sigh>


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

Many airlines allow you to carry and use your own little GPS map unit. On United I have even used a Garmin GPS unit connected via NNEPA serial link (this was before there was USB) to my laptop. No problem. As a matter of fact I was doing that one time in First Class (using an award ticket EWR - NRT) when one of the off duty pilots came by and we had a great discussion about GPS and how they are not allowed to use their pocket GPS in the cockpit but some carry one anyway just in case as a fallback, if everything else fails.

I have found Lufthansa to be most cranky about window shades "You Vill Put It Down"



. One thing I hate about 787s is that the fancy electronic window shade can be overridden centrally, so they can just turn the darned thing off sitting at their jump seat.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 5, 2018)

I've never thought about bringing a GPS along. I might have to do that next time.


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I've never thought about bringing a GPS along. I might have to do that next time.


First make sure that the airline that you are flying, allows them. Not all airlines allow them.


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## BCL (Oct 5, 2018)

BC Ferries runs route from the mainland to Vancouver Island that cross Washington state territorial waters. I heard that was one of the concerns when they were thinking of installing slot machines. I’m not sure how they handle taxes for onboard purchases.


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I've never thought about bringing a GPS along. I might have to do that next time.
> ...


I am somewhat surprised that they are allowed...I had thought that all devices that contained any sort of 'radio' within were banned in flight.

Of course, that becomes hard to define or enforce...what about bluetooth earpieces? Or wireless mouses...or radio set, wristwatches? The latter example cannot even be 'turned off'....


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

WiFi is almost universally allowed above 10,000' these days. Indeed for many airlines, a significant part of the IFE system depends on it. Bluetooth Headphones seem to be allowed even during takeoff and landing these days. I have never seen anyone being asked to turn their wireless headphone off.

These are all transmitters that are allowed. GPS is only a receiver. No transmission whatsoever from the units unless they are using WiFi or Bluetooth for something.


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## cpotisch (Oct 5, 2018)

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


GPS actually will not interfere with flight electronics, because it is receive only, unlike cellular.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw that jis beat me to it.


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

But radio's and television's are also banned in flight because even though they only 'receive', they do have superheterodyne circuit's that generate RF signal's that allegedly can interfere with air navigation.

I have always wanted to use my scanner in flight, to monitor ATC, but those are banned. The only way to get around that, would be to find an antique crystal radio set, and have it tuned to the ATC frequency. Those do not generate any RF signal, but even if you found one, good luck trying to convince the flight crew of that....


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 5, 2018)

I was carrying my Garmin GPS on flights 12 or 13 years ago and never a problem. The one on my Smart Phone is much better now....and the IFE one is better than that with the constant read-out of additional flight info.

Airlines that approve or disapprove of inflight GPS (a bit outdated)

http://www.gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

Do GPS receivers use Superhet? I suspect that the pure digital receivers do not. All that they do is convert the received signal to digital form and then do all the demodulation etc. in DSPs. But I am a bit rusty in this area, so I may be wrong.

Coming to think of it, any digital receiver as in a software defined radio would not suffer from the stray transmission that is inherent in superhet I suppose. No?


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

jis said:


> Do GPS receivers use Superhet? I suspect that the pure digital receivers do not. All that they do is convert the received signal to digital form and then do all the demodulation etc. in DSPs. But I am a bit rusty in this area, so I may be wrong.
> 
> Coming to think of it, any digital receiver as in a software defined radio would not suffer from the stray transmission that is inherent in superhet I suppose. No?


I don't know...sounds like you know more about it than I do....but if they don't generate any RF, why do some airlines ban them anyway? Or is it more of a "security", than radio interference issue?


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## jis (Oct 5, 2018)

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Do GPS receivers use Superhet? I suspect that the pure digital receivers do not. All that they do is convert the received signal to digital form and then do all the demodulation etc. in DSPs. But I am a bit rusty in this area, so I may be wrong.
> ...


Residual analism?


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## caravanman (Oct 5, 2018)

One can build a modern crystal radio, no problems. Tuning it to ATC would be a major problem, as there is little selectivity or rejection of adjacent channel signals. Hanging a wire antenna out of the plane window might be problematic too!





I note that aircraft ATC still use AM transmissions, I wonder why that is, most modern systems would be FM or digital?

I love to see the scenery from a plane, amazed at the dry ground under flights from Doha, etc to the UK... The main thing is I need an aisle seat for my legroom in economy, so not often I see the ground!

Ed.


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## ehbowen (Oct 5, 2018)

caravanman said:


> I note that aircraft ATC still use AM transmissions, I wonder why that is, most modern systems would be FM or digital?


It would require a worldwide ground-up reboot of the civil ATC comm system, which hasn't happened since the 1930s. Frequency allocations have been expanded and channels have been added and narrowed, but a change to entirely new technology would be a massive undertaking...and expense.


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## Blackwolf (Oct 5, 2018)

Was just on this route Monday. Of course, the CRJ900 didn't have the "shoulder room" of the A330, but at least Row 1 had plenty of leg room.

The Fall Colors are nearly at their peak in the Annapolis Valley right now. Makes for a very beautiful drive going down 101... Which, unfortunately, we're doing daily visiting the hospital in Kentville.

Heading back to California on Thanksgiving. (That'd be this next Monday, for the non-Canadians in the room.)


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 5, 2018)

One of the most interesting airplane window views that I have had was on a Delta Buenos Aires-Atlanta flight. Being awakened when the interior lights began to brighten, I looked at the in-flight map (which I always keep on, if it is available), and I saw we were just East of Orlando. Raising the shade, the very large metro area of Orlando was alight! Never realized how much territory metro Orlando covered!


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## railiner (Oct 5, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > I note that aircraft ATC still use AM transmissions, I wonder why that is, most modern systems would be FM or digital?
> ...


There are some more explanation's (or opinion's) over here... https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1357995

and here https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/why-are-aircraft-radios-am.13841/


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