# How strong winds affect trains



## Gingee (Mar 6, 2012)

We have been having some strong winds today and some tomorrow. It got me to thinking how trains are affected in strong winds. I am not sure of what wind speed but I heard on our news that some driving could be treacherous. So, any feedback?


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## Michigan Mom (Mar 6, 2012)

Gingee said:


> We have been having some strong winds today and some tomorrow. It got me to thinking how trains are affected in strong winds. I am not sure of what wind speed but I heard on our news that some driving could be treacherous. So, any feedback?



Winds are a much more critical element of air travel than train travel..


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 6, 2012)

Gingee said:


> We have been having some strong winds today and some tomorrow. It got me to thinking how trains are affected in strong winds. I am not sure of what wind speed but I heard on our news that some driving could be treacherous. So, any feedback?


Unless the winds reach that velocity where it starts knocking over big objects like houses, thereby raising a possibility of it knocking off traincars, winds shouldn't have any significant effect on trains. Also, remember a Superliner train car is much heavier than cars and trucks so if things reach a stage where winds can knock down a Superliner car, you probably wouldn't want to be anywhere in such an area!

An aside- I remember riding a narrow gauge train on a hill section in India that had instructions inside the coach "Keep all windows open in case of storms" to allow the crosswinds a safe passage across the traincar. One may think it is better to shut all windows when a storm with rain approaches to stay dry, but doing that would make the traincar a box that is much more vulnerable to being blown away by the wind.


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## Gingee (Mar 6, 2012)

So Texas, if the train is going in the area where the wind is too strong, we should jump off the train?


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## Ryan (Mar 6, 2012)

Michigan Mom said:


> Gingee said:
> 
> 
> > We have been having some strong winds today and some tomorrow. It got me to thinking how trains are affected in strong winds. I am not sure of what wind speed but I heard on our news that some driving could be treacherous. So, any feedback?
> ...


They're still relevant to train travel.

Once the wind gets high enough, you'll get slow orders and things will rapidly fall apart. Was 4 hours late into Chicago on the SWC once because of the wind.


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## Gfoley4 (Mar 6, 2012)

Granted this is not a passenger car, I remember a BNSF yardmaster telling the tour group I was in that winds would sometimes move an empty boxcar hundreds of yards backwards, fouling up the hump. IIRC, this was before they got a computer upgrade which now factors wind speed into "humping".


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## Trainmans daughter (Mar 6, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiBOuvdK-YI


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 6, 2012)

Because the train is so heavy and runs on fixed tracks, I don't think that a train would be damaged by normal winds. Dosen't mean they can't be blown over, just less likely than a aircraft, road vehicle, ship, etc..


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 7, 2012)

I know that the winds can blow over rail cars. On the giant boot-looking shape you make on the final descent into Denver, our SCA or someone like that was narrating to us about the area. He said that coming down the slopes, 100mph+ gusts were not uncommon,, and the rusty boxcars laying alongside the tracks there where the rail parallels the Front Range are to act as a buffer to any cars going up/down.


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## George Harris (Mar 7, 2012)

High winds are particularly dangerous to cars carrying empty containers. Most railroads have rules about operating in high winds. They will affect freight operations before they affect passenger operations. In areas subject to typhoon winds, there are rules about reduced speed and ceasing operations as wind speeds increase. The railroad companies are very attentive to wind issues. They, not Amtrak, will determine appropriate operational constraints due to wind.


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## TCRT (Mar 7, 2012)

Trainmans daughter said:


> http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GiBOuvdK-YI


I was just thinking of this video when I saw the thread title. Scary stuff.

Echoing the above post on empty containers, I've also read somewhere (perhaps in a trip report...?) that some railroads have had shipping containers on the upper levels of double stack trains get blown off of bridges into the rivers below on occasion.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Mar 7, 2012)

Last month, we were held at Leyden on #5 to receive a new track warrant for the Big 10 Curve, where 70 MPH winds had been reported by an earlier freight. We proceeded at 5 MPH through the entire curve and hit these winds perpendicularly. The welded hopper cars were doing their job for us that morning.


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## cirdan (Mar 7, 2012)

Winds must be pretty strong to actually knock trains off the track. But a bigger problem caused by winds is them blowing things onto tracks and causing trees to fall onto tracks.


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## deimos (Mar 7, 2012)

I started to wonder about possibilities of high winds damaging signals, flying debris (in the case of very high winds), etc.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 7, 2012)

Gingee said:


> So Texas, if the train is going in the area where the wind is too strong, we should jump off the train?


I think you would more likely fly off the train. :giggle:


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 7, 2012)

Gfoley4 said:


> Granted this is not a passenger car, I remember a BNSF yardmaster telling the tour group I was in that winds would sometimes move an empty boxcar hundreds of yards backwards, fouling up the hump. IIRC, this was before they got a computer upgrade which now factors wind speed into "humping".


But the boxcar still remained on the tracks, no?


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## Gord (Mar 7, 2012)

TCRT said:


> Trainmans daughter said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GiBOuvdK-YI
> ...


Canadian Pacific had some doublestacks derailed by high winds while crossing a bridge over the St. Lawrence River just downriver from Montreal a couple of years back. They did not end up in the river but I'll bet the crew had some scary moments.

The narrow gauge (42")railway in Newfoundland, which was abandioned a couple of decades ago, used to have problems with extreme winds knocking cars off the tracks in an area called Gaff Topsail. IIRC they paid someone to monitor winds in the area and stop rail traffic as required.

Gord


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## jis (Mar 7, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I know that the winds can blow over rail cars. On the giant boot-looking shape you make on the final descent into Denver, our SCA or someone like that was narrating to us about the area. He said that coming down the slopes, 100mph+ gusts were not uncommon,, and the rusty boxcars laying alongside the tracks there where the rail parallels the Front Range are to act as a buffer to any cars going up/down.


Yes, indeed, that is what those full hoppers parked across the Coal Creek Canyon Bridge are for on the Front Range. Of course sometimes even that does not help, since there was at least one incident where the said protection mechanism itself got blown over.

Chinook Winds in the northern Rockies are notorious, and railroads are very very careful about operations when those are blowing. In addition to high winds they sometimes also bring precipitous temperature change which is know to crack window panes and such, and can cause serious damage to track too.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 7, 2012)

cirdan said:


> Winds must be pretty strong to actually knock trains off the track. But a bigger problem caused by winds is them blowing things onto tracks and causing trees to fall onto tracks.


Oh yes. I remember some years ago when strong winds blew some branches on to the catenary somewhere around Odenton and shut down the entire Northeast Corridor just in time for the DC rush hour. Thousands of stranded commuters milling about in Union Station. A bunch of us who recognized each other as regular riders found taxicab and split on the $75 ride to BWI.


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## Trogdor (Mar 7, 2012)

I've been on a Southwest Chief that was delayed several hours due to high winds in the middle of the winter. You could feel the train rocking back and forth, despite the fact that we were stopped.


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## JoeBas (Mar 7, 2012)

Not just a western problem


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## George Harris (Mar 7, 2012)

BNSF has wind fences on some bridges in the west. I do not know for sure, but I believe that they have anemometers in some areas know to have high winds tha tare tied into the signals or disatchers office.


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 7, 2012)

The Rockville Bridge near Harrisburg, Pa and the Sandusky Bay Bridge in Ohio are both places where Amtrak trains have been prohibited from crossing due to high winds. Freight trains have been blown off the bridges in the past with winds over 60mph and gusts.


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## Gfoley4 (Mar 7, 2012)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Gfoley4 said:
> 
> 
> > Granted this is not a passenger car, I remember a BNSF yardmaster telling the tour group I was in that winds would sometimes move an empty boxcar hundreds of yards backwards, fouling up the hump. IIRC, this was before they got a computer upgrade which now factors wind speed into "humping".
> ...


I would assume so.


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## George Harris (Mar 7, 2012)

Gfoley4 said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > Gfoley4 said:
> ...


Wind can definitely do this. The force it takes to make a car move, commonly called rolling resistance consists of three terms, a constant, generally considered related to internal friction in the bearings, a term directly proportional to speed, generally considered related to the amount the track deflects under the train plus some other considerations, and a term proportional to the square of the speed, generally considered to be aerodynamic. the effects of grade, up or down is also a constant directly proportional to the steepness of the grade. A hump yard works on the principle that the grade factor is large enough to exceed all the others. If the wind is strong enough that it overcomes all the others, then the car will move in the direction the wind pushes it.


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## Gingee (Mar 7, 2012)

Sounds scary. Has wind ever blown a passenger train off the tracks?


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