# Pilots have difficulty flying planes manually: FAA study



## CHamilton (Nov 18, 2013)

Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation, Panel Says
Many Aviators Have Difficulty Manually Flying Planes, Study Commissioned by FAA Finds


> Commercial airline pilots have become so dependent on automation that poor manual flying skills and failure to master the latest changes in cockpit technology pose the greatest hazards to passengers, an international panel of air-safety experts warns.
> 
> A soon-to-be-released study commissioned by the Federal Aviation Administration determined, among other things, that "pilots sometimes rely too much on automated systems and may be reluctant to intervene" or switch them off in unusual or risky circumstances, according to a draft reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 18, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation, Panel Says
> Many Aviators Have Difficulty Manually Flying Planes, Study Commissioned by FAA Finds
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent Points Charlie! Hopefully Pilots,Ship Captains,Train Engineers and Commercial Drivers will never become Over Dependent on Technology doing their Job for them!

My Old Flight Instructor used to tel us: "Fly the Plane, Don't Let it Fly You!"


----------



## railiner (Nov 18, 2013)

Looks like some more intensive recurrent training is in the works......

I think we discussed on an earlier thread how Southwest pilots do more manual flying than most of the other carrier's, so they probably are up to snuff, in that regard....or at least should be......


----------



## railiner (Nov 18, 2013)

Some facets of truly manual flying are no longer possible with fly-by-wire aircraft. And since they no longer have those upper windshields, such quaint and archaic tasks like using a sextant to find position is pretty tough to accomplish....


----------



## chakk (Nov 18, 2013)

railiner said:


> Looks like some more intensive recurrent training is in the works......
> 
> I think we discussed on an earlier thread how Southwest pilots do more manual flying than most of the other carrier's, so they probably are up to snuff, in that regard....or at least should be......


And yet Southwest pilots do make errors. Witness the flight from Nashville that landed at NY LaGuardia nose wheel first earlier this year, which collapsed the nose gear and injured 10 passengers. A Southwest pilot friend tells me that the pilot who was flying the plane at the time of that landing is no longer with the airline.


----------



## railiner (Nov 18, 2013)

Really? I wonder why.......


----------



## grounded flyboy (Nov 19, 2013)

Monthly requirements, quarterly requirements, annual and semiannual check rides, and unending simulator hours practicing procedures (especially emergency type) do not include using a GPS or an autopilot, other than to show proficiency in turning it on.

There is an old saying... if you can't do (in this case fly)- instruct, if you can't instruct- evaluate. Let's add one more...if you can't qualify, become a bureaucrat and do studies and write endless rules to justify keeping your job.

We rely on public forms of transportation to move us around safely. If you want to travel safely, an airplane, train, or boat is the way to go. It is well documented that, by far, the most dangerous way to travel is by passenger car. That said, there are still accidents and all are, in the end, pilot error (much like all death is ultimately heart failure) but the contributing factors include mechanical error, weather, and poorly trained crew members. Let me ride with an airline captain with 10,000 hours experience...I'll take my chances with that pilot and she won't have a single qualm of 'intervening' over the automated systems ! (Note to bureaucrats...it's called override not intervene)


----------



## caravanman (Nov 19, 2013)

I have no knowledge about flying planes, and to be honest, I would rather not know! There must be a different mind set among older pilots and their younger colleagues about override, due to different training, past experiences.

The plane that splashed down in the Hudson river had both pilot and co-pilot as former air force pilots... That must have given them better odds than with pilots with little manual experience?

Ed.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Nov 19, 2013)

grounded flyboy said:


> It is well documented that, by far, the most dangerous way to travel is by passenger car.


As true as that is among the methods listed I'd consider motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian travel even more dangerous than a passenger car. Whenever anyone is cycling down a street it seems half the drivers on the rode are too busy fiddling with the music or chatting with a passenger or talking on the phone or texting or eating or daydreaming to even notice their presence. The other half almost seem like they're actively trying to mess with the cyclist, I guess because they think it's funny to put the life of a stranger in danger. Personally I think a drivers license should be hard to get and difficult to maintain, much like a commercial pilots license.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 20, 2013)

caravanman said:


> I have no knowledge about flying planes, and to be honest, I would rather not know! There must be a different mind set among older pilots and their younger colleagues about override, due to different training, past experiences.
> 
> The plane that splashed down in the Hudson river had both pilot and co-pilot as former air force pilots... That must have given them better odds than with pilots with little manual experience?
> 
> Ed.


This is an Excellent Perspective Eddie! Thanks for Posting! :hi:


----------



## GG-1 (Nov 20, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > I have no knowledge about flying planes, and to be honest, I would rather not know! There must be a different mind set among older pilots and their younger colleagues about override, due to different training, past experiences.
> ...


Aloha

I worked on the TV Movie "Miracle Landing" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100154 The Pilot and Co-Pilot were advisers. Their comments were extremely interesting.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Nov 20, 2013)

GG-1 said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > caravanman said:
> ...


If I remember correctly that was no ordinary event and the formal report was rather controversial.

The conclusions released by the NTSB left the suspect plug-less freight door design largely intact with only relatively minor changes to the locking system.

Yet even decades later you will find no new FAA-approved "combi" aircraft.

Did the pilot and first officer believe there were signs of a coverup between Boeing, United, and the NTSB?


----------



## GG-1 (Nov 20, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > jimhudson said:
> ...


You are remembering the wrong flight, "Miracle Landing" is about the The Aloha Airlines plane the lost 20 feet of roof. This flight landed with all passengers safe.

Aloha


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Nov 20, 2013)

GG-1 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > GG-1 said:
> ...


Whoops!

It's kind of amazing that two completely unrelated flights both lost their roofs while flying near the Hawaiian islands and still managed to land without crashing. I'll have to watch the story about the Aloha flight to refresh my memory.


----------



## Trogdor (Nov 21, 2013)

The United jet you're thinking of didn't lose its roof, it lost its cargo door (which is below the floor), and part of the lower fuselage.


----------



## tp49 (Nov 21, 2013)

If you're thinking of the United 747 that had the hole in it after taking off from Hawaii, it did not lose its roof but did have a huge hole in its side.

Edit: Beaten to it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Nov 21, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> The United jet you're thinking of didn't lose its roof, it lost its cargo door (which is below the floor), and part of the lower fuselage.


True.

I'm running on fumes today and it appears to be causing sloppy articulation.


----------



## GG-1 (Nov 21, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


Roughly over a year or so there were 3 major incidents. One I do not remember the details, The one you mentioned had the cargo door blow open, It took 3 seats or rows with it. The Miracle Landing TV film is accurate except to the FBI(?) character in the tower that kept asking about a bomb. The question was only asked once, after co-pilot Mimi reported "explosive decompression". They did know what had happened except that through the bent cockpit door they could see daylight, The engine and controls were responsive, but they had no communications with the crew in the cabin.

While the film is a little dated in style, it is still enjoyable. It is available on You Tube.

Aloha


----------



## grounded flyboy (Nov 21, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> grounded flyboy said:
> 
> 
> > It is well documented that, by far, the most dangerous way to travel is by passenger car.
> ...


You are right. I would have been better served to say the most dangerous way to travel is on the highways and byways. On the other hand, you make my point in your example...cars are generally the conveyance that causes harm or death to cyclists and pedestrians. You rarely hear about two people walking down the street bumping into each other and one, or both of them, ending up so mangled that it causes them to be hospitalized or hauled off to the cemetery.


----------



## MrFSS (Nov 21, 2013)

grounded flyboy said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > grounded flyboy said:
> ...


But some are doing it on purpose!

*LINK*


----------

