# "Zombie" AGR accounts!



## D.P. Roberts (Nov 22, 2014)

Many people I know are interested in taking an Amtrak trip, but are reluctant to do so because of the cost. I often recommend that they set up an AGR account & start earning points for shopping, to at least get them started on earning points toward a free trip. Earlier this week I realized that's not such a good idea.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll retell my story here just in case. I have an AGR Mastercard linked with my AGR account, and my wife has an AGR account in her name too, with no credit card. Between the points we earn on the credit card, Points for Shopping, and the bonus points-buying opportunities, we've managed to take a long-distance train trip every summer for the past few years without actually buying a ticket. So, although she signed up when we took our first trip back in 2007, she hasn't traveled on a purchased ticket since then.

Last June (2014) AGR offered a point-buying bonus: 50% extra points when you purchase 10,000 points. I had already purchased some points on my account this year, so I was not eligible for the 50% bonus on my account, so we decided to buy 10,000 points on my wife's account, & use them on our trip next summer.

All well and good - until she got her October 2014 AGR statement. Her balance had dropped from 15,000 points to zero. We've e-mailed and spoken to Amtrak several times this week, and finally straightened everything out, but here's the point: since she hasn't traveled on a purchased ticket since 2007, her account basically "expired" in 2010 (36 months after her last paid trip).

I understood the 36-months rule, and I knew that the points from 2007 had expired. What I didn't realize was that any points earned since then were subject to immediate cancellation at any time. In her case, she bought points in June 2014, and Amtrak just happened to "purge" her account in September 2014 - three months later. Technically, they could have purged her account the very day she bought the points! In a sense, she had a "zombie" account - it was active, but not really alive, and the points could have (and did) disappear at any time.

A very nice AGR representative helped us out - they restored the points, with the warning that they might also get "purged" again at any time. As the nice AGR lady (and several AU members in the other thread) suggested, we immediately applied for an AGR Mastercard in my wife's name on her AGR account. This will prevent her points from expiring, and as an added bonus we get 12,000 points on her account after spending $500.

So it all worked out in the end, but I just thing it's a weird flaw in the AGR program. Once your points expire after 36 months of non-travel, you'd think AGR would be more clear about your account's status. If your account is subject to random purges at that time, they should just block you from earning any points at all (purchasing, shopping, whatever) until you accrue actual miles and "activate" your account again. To do otherwise just invents an unfortunate customer service situation like ours.


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## the_traveler (Nov 22, 2014)

She did not "earn" any points since that trip in 2007! :excl: Unlike airline FFPs, the only way to earn points to "reset the clock" is by actual travel on Amtrak. Earning points by shopping or buying points do not reset the 36-month clock! But a 1 stop $5 trip will.


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## TinCan782 (Nov 22, 2014)

I've got the AGR credit card and I do take paid short trips each year so, I'm not in the category of having expiring points. Your experience is interesting however in that ALL the points vanished after the 36 month clock ran out. I would have figured only the 36-month old points would go and the others would remain until their clock ran out.


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## the_traveler (Nov 22, 2014)

The "other points" had the clock run out, since they were not earned the "clock" was that they expire within the 36 month period of the last paid trip. (In other words they expire in -0- months or within 36 months after a paid trip, whichever is longer. Since the last paid was in 2007 - which was more than 36 months ago - they were subject to cancellation after -0- months!)


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 23, 2014)

It would be nice if when buying points it checks if the account is inactive (>36 months since last paid trip) and warn you that the points will expire soon without a paid trip.


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## D.P. Roberts (Nov 24, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> It would be nice if when buying points it checks if the account is inactive (>36 months since last paid trip) and warn you that the points will expire soon without a paid trip.


It would be better if they had an actual rule to follow. To say "Sure, we'll sell you these points, but they may expire tomorrow, or next week, or next month... who knows?" is silly at best. I still think that the simplest thing is to prevent these accounts from purchasing/ points altogether - give customers a message like "since you did not travel within 36 months, your account has become inactive. Make any Amtrak travel to reactivate your account." Failing that, at least give an actual deadline for use - 30 days, or something. This random deadline doesn't make sense and isn't customer-friendly.



the_traveler said:


> Earning points by shopping or buying points do not reset the 36-month clock! But a 1 stop $5 trip will.


That was going to be our other option - they originally offered to reinstate the points if we traveled within the next 30 days. Our problem with that is that we live 2-3 hours from the nearest Amtrak station, on the currently unreliable CL-LSL route. So, we would have had to get up early, drive several hours, drop my wife off at the station, follow the train to the next stop, pick her up, and drive home - easily a 5-6 hour process for the two us, and that's if the train was on time.


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## Anderson (Nov 24, 2014)

I think some of this might need to be brought to the attention of AGRInsider over at Flyertalk. I'm going to send him a summary of this (no names) and suggest some sort of tweak to the program.


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## Anderson (Nov 24, 2014)

Ok, I sent him a message there, suggesting three options:
(1) Deactivate those accounts, with reactivation resetting the 36-month clock.

(2) Delete those accounts outright (granting leave to folks to sign back up, I would presume).

(3) Put a warning up on the AGR site advising passengers with out-of-use accounts of the risk of a re-sweep.

Any of those would deal with the underlying issue (someone purchases points only to have them unexpectedly grabbed back). 1 seems more likely than 2, though to be fair 3 wouldn't even require a change of policy.


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## rrdude (Nov 24, 2014)

I can't see the logic, if I read the OP original comment correctly, why they would zero out ALL the points, including the PURCHASED points?

Zeroing out purchased points? For real? Seems like it might not even be legal, but I'm sure they covered their butts with the fine print, and I have better things to do than read fine print........


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## Anderson (Nov 24, 2014)

rrdude said:


> I can't see the logic, if I read the OP original comment correctly, why they would zero out ALL the points, including the PURCHASED points?
> 
> Zeroing out purchased points? For real? Seems like it might not even be legal, but I'm sure they covered their butts with the fine print, and I have better things to do than read fine print........


Here's the thing: The account is supposed to drop to zero points at 36 months of no paid Amtrak travel (assuming no AGR card), whether or not the points were purchased or earned. The issue is the account being, in effect, "re-cleaned" after the 36-month deadline (or alternatively, not cleaned of points for a long time after that deadline and only being so cleaned after a major point purchase).


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 24, 2014)

Most major US airlines and hotel loyalty programs have implemented points balances that can be renewed through even the most minor of adjustments. Most programs have numerous activity checks which work in several directions (earn, redeem, purchase, transfer, etc.) and can originate from or end with dozens or even hundreds of partners. A few programs have moved even further toward loyalty points that never expire regardless of activity. By comparison Amtrak's process appears to run completely counter to the rest of the US based travel industry. Amtrak's sole validity check only operates in one direction (earn) via mainline revenue activity. I can't remember the last time I had airline or hotel points that failed to post core revenue points into their own programs but I've experienced numerous examples where Amtrak was unable to post points to their own AGR program for whatever reason. As with most loyalty programs Amtrak already retains control over points use that exceeds even central bank level powers. Imposing extremely narrow validity requirements and perpetual expiration policies is needlessly punitive in my view.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 25, 2014)

I think it is borderline fraud to permit a member to buy a fist-full of points for several hundred dollars, and then a couple of months later delete those points for inactivity. I would have no issue with the three year limit if the only points removed were those three years old or older. Points earned by any means should be available for at least three years from the transaction date regardless of paid travel. The clock on all points would reset with paid travel.


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## jis (Nov 25, 2014)

I agree. Selling points without tacking on a warning about when they will disappear and how to prevent that from happening, before the trigger is pulled on the purchase, minimally shows a lack of good faith and possibly worse as suggested by PRR.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## me_little_me (Nov 26, 2014)

Put in for a Chase card for her then just buy things on her account to get the 18k bonus then stop using her account except occasionally to keep it active. Big win with 18k points and free companion voucher and no loss of points


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 26, 2014)

me_little_me said:


> Put in for a Chase card for her then just buy things on her account to get the 18k bonus then stop using her account except occasionally to keep it active. Big win with 18k points and free companion voucher and no loss of points


18k? I think that's just for special promos. I think its normally 12k. Still, not a bad deal.


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## fairviewroad (Nov 26, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak's sole validity check only operates in one direction (earn) via mainline revenue activity.


I agree with your overall point, but it is worth noting that an additional "validity check" is holding the AGR Mastercard. This has no annual fee and

thus is not an "earn" style of validity check. (because no spending is required to acquire the card or retain your AGR points).

I'll grant you that that still leaves AGR far short of the industry standard since, among other things, not everyone qualifies for a credit card.


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