# A duel in the sky: Airlines vs. private jets



## saxman (Aug 28, 2007)

A duel in the sky: Airlines vs. private jets

By Nelson D. Schwartz

Sunday, August 26, 2007

NEW YORK: The summer travel season is building toward its Labor Day peak in the United States, and fliers are growing ever angrier about delays. Now, the beleaguered airline industry is trying to shift the blame onto an unlikely villain: corporate jets, which the airlines claim are literally crowding passenger planes out of the sky.

Story

I want some insight on how this might work with rail transportation. We all know rail is a market yet to be truly tapped and this its chance! Also what do you think about the airlines vs. corporate? I have my own oppinion, which I will say later.


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## AmtrakWPK (Aug 28, 2007)

In my experience, most private aircraft, turbine and piston both, use mostly reliever airports, not the commercial airline hubs and so forth. For one thing, it is MUCH easier to get to and from your airplane that way, much less hassle, cheaper, and very frequently MUCH closer to where your intended destination is, as opposed to where the commercial jetport is located. So they are not generally the reason that the commercial airliners are stacked up 15-30 deep in line for takeoff. The reason for most of those stack-ups, as I understand it, is usually that all those airlines have scheduled a whole bunch of outgoing flights for basically the same time, which is a physical impossibility, so while they may leave the gate at or around the scheduled time, they gotta all take their turn for the active runway(s), and that is the cause of the takeoff delays...


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## awalker1829 (Aug 29, 2007)

AmtrakWPK said:


> In my experience, most private aircraft, turbine and piston both, use mostly reliever airports, not the commercial airline hubs and so forth. For one thing, it is MUCH easier to get to and from your airplane that way, much less hassle, cheaper, and very frequently MUCH closer to where your intended destination is, as opposed to where the commercial jetport is located. So they are not generally the reason that the commercial airliners are stacked up 15-30 deep in line for takeoff. The reason for most of those stack-ups, as I understand it, is usually that all those airlines have scheduled a whole bunch of outgoing flights for basically the same time, which is a physical impossibility, so while they may leave the gate at or around the scheduled time, they gotta all take their turn for the active runway(s), and that is the cause of the takeoff delays...


Actually, a major reason for flight delays is the minimum landing conditions at each airport. The minimums that airlines are bound by are generally more restrictive than those of corporate or private operators. One minor delay anywhere in the system and you get the delays.

As for quality of travel, those who fly first class are those who generally cannot justify a seat on the corporate jet or do not travel frequently enough to justify purchaing or leasing a plane. Fractional ownership has picked off the last of the true first class client from the airlines.

For those of us who have had reason to frequently travel, private aircraft ownership is often more economical than flying on the commercial carriers. My parents and I have rarely flown commercially in the 15 years that they have been private aircraft owners and operators. No security issues to deal with, come and go where you want when you want. It can't be beat.


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## RailFanLNK (Aug 29, 2007)

I used to fuel aircraft at a FBO in LNK. This was 20 years ago. We had alot of "private" jets come specifically to LNK to re-fuel at night. There was no control tower operations after a certain time, there was no "circling" the airport to get a landing slot, and there was no ground traffic to wait on to taxi up to the FBO. They could get "quick turned" in 10 minutes (fuel, coffee, ice, auxilary power unit and Nebraska steaks as a gift). Yes there was KCI and OMA near, but those airports were "hassles" compared to LNK according to the pilots.

My worst delays in 2005 had nothing to do with weather. It had to do with the volume of air traffic into O'Hare and Air Canada not having an aircraft available for a United flight that was "operated" by Air Canada. So I say "phooey" to the "weather" excuse. They tried to use the "weather" excuse on the late arrival of my flight but an off-duty pilot on board told all of us, "its the volume of air traffic into CHI". It was that trip that made me look into taking Amtrak for the first time.


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## George Harris (Sep 5, 2007)

You can prove these people liars in a hurry without much effort. There is a web site, airnav.com that will give you all the information you, or anybody wanting targeting information, would ever want to know about any airport in the US. Pick any airport and go to it on that site. On the site you will find a breakdown of commericial, private, military for the airport, runways, navigation aids, fuel availablity, tower and terminal facilities, etc., etc. for it. That is every airport from O'Hare to Podunk.

I think AmtrakWPK is also exactly right in what he says.

Most of this I regard as a ploy to make private aviation inconveniet or prohibitively expensive or both so that all but the richest of these private jet owners / passengers will return to commercial flights.

Our whole public transportation system is becoming more "third world" than most of the third world.


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## AmtrakWPK (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks, George. I don't think that they really WANT to do anything about the private jets. You're NOT going to convince a company CEO to take a commercial flight. His private jet will take him directly from one small city where one of his facilities is located, nonstop to another small city where another of his facilities is located. The commercial flight would start 50 - 100 miles from his initial location and end 50-100 miles from his intended destination, would take him four to six hours or more longer, end-to-end, with lots of indignities heaped on him, and maybe lose his luggage, instead of a private jet with his complete office staff and all amenities, with a limo that will pick him up and drop him off 25 feet from his airplane and drop him a few minutes later at his manufacturing plant.

The airlines just want to use them as a foil, as a scapegoat, for their own failings, which I guess we agree are pretty much self-inflicted. Since the private aircraft really aren't objectively a significant causal factor in the airline delays, I don't expect any successful action against them. Especially as the owners and operators of those private jets (including a LOT of big corporations) undoubtedly are some of the darlings of the conservative establishment and collectively make a lot of bribes, er, excuse me, I mean campaign contributions, to the pols... If the airlines successfully deflect the public's anger through this tactic, they're happy. As the saying goes, "f you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull----".

Flying private aircraft is liberating, relaxing, and fun. And, as Amtrak does, takes some of the crush out of the passenger clogs in cars and airlines. I haven't had any experience with jets (except for a number of hours in a U.S. Navy F4 simulator - full motion) - just small single or twin engine recips, and I have around 400 hours logged in mostly Piper Cherokee/Warrior/Archer class and Cessna 172/177s. Haven't flown for a number of years, but fortunately a pilot's license does not expire, although I'll have to take a short refresher with an instructor to get back at it again, whenever I can afford to take it up again.. All I fly right now is MS FlightSim and GoogleEarth's FlightSim, which I just discovered a couple of days ago and flew last night for awhile. It's pretty neat. Those folks at Google are pretty creative to have come up with that.


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## awalker1829 (Sep 14, 2007)

Nothing will happen with the latest argument about FAA funding. The point is that General Aviation operations use only a fraction of the services that the scheduled air carriers do and are not any cause of delay for the airlines. The problem for the airlines is that they don't rationally design their route network. Instead of each carrier serving limited markets and operating fewer flights with larger aircraft, they attempt to compete with each other and eventually saturate the market with aircraft that are not adequate for the traffic demand, using up more resources than is really necessary.

Taxing General Aviation is a BIG mistake for the airlines. Right now, private flight training is quite expensive. Adding any additional financial burden will cut the domestic pilot supply even more, leaving fewer qualified candidates for airlines to hire from in the future. Right now, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and the National Business Aircraft Association are leading the fight to kill the tax. I should also note that private jet powered aircraft are only a small portion of the general aviation fleet. What the airlines are in is a race to the bottom. Their "First Class" sections are populated mostly by people traveling on airline rewards or business travelers who are low enough on the totem pole that they can't use the corporate airplane. All of the people who demand true first class service can now afford general aviation travel which is far more convenient. No airport security to deal with, no lines, go where you want when you want and not when the airline says you will. Also, private airplanes can operate safely in lower weather minimums that airlines can't.


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