# New flex meal menu (10/06/21)



## AmtrakBlue (Oct 5, 2021)




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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 5, 2021)

I sure hope this isn’t their “fix” that’s been long talked about...
I’m assuming all of these are more or less the same level as previous options and not from the Acela vendor


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## joelkfla (Oct 5, 2021)

Hooray for Railroad French Toast! (I hope it's not microwaved.)


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 5, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I sure hope this isn’t their “fix” that’s been long talked about...
> I’m assuming all of these are more or less the same level as previous options and not from the Acela vendor


Well, it's an improvement for me since they took away the hard boiled eggs (2 or more menus ago) and the Chicken Fettuccini (garlic-alfredo cream sauce.) which was my favorite. I tried some of the others and did not like any of them. I will try the french toast (not something I normally eat) and the new beef one on my upcoming trip.


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## joelkfla (Oct 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, it's an improvement for me since the took away the hard boiled eggs (2 or more menus ago) and the Chicken ?Alfredo? (non-red sauce) which was my favorite. I tried some of the others and did not like any of them. I will try the french toast (not something I normally eat) and the new beef one on my upcoming trip.


Yeah, I'm a pancakes and waffles man myself, but I'll try French toast in a pinch. Better than packaged muffins or undercooked oatmeal, fer sure.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, it's an improvement for me since the took away the hard boiled eggs (2 or more menus ago) and the Chicken ?Alfredo? (non-red sauce) which was my favorite. I tried some of the others and did not like any of them. I will try the french toast (not something I normally eat) and the new beef one on my upcoming trip.


Let me ask clarifying questions.
Which trains are offering this menu (just the normal east coast trains?), and how do these options compare with the traditional dining options of the same name?


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## neroden (Oct 5, 2021)

Breakfast looks like it will be an improvement, especially if they've had the common sense to offer PLAIN oatmeal, which they had not done previously.

Looks like little change on lunch/dinner. Still missing ingredients lists, which means I can't eat any of it. If they published the ingredients, some of that might be fine.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 5, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Let me ask clarifying questions.
> Which trains are offering this menu (just the normal east coast trains?), and how do these options compare with the traditional dining options of the same name?


All flex meal trains will have this menu starting tomorrow (or the 7th-probably depends on which station the train is originating from).
I have no idea how they compare - guess we'll find out in a day or two when they update the menus online.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 5, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Hooray for Railroad French Toast! (I hope it's not microwaved.)


Of course it's going to be microwaved....  Well, maybe if it's not too busy, they'll use the convection ovens, but of course it's all precooked packaged meals that are reheated.

I like the increase in variety. I won't be able to sample them, however, because I've already ordered the kosher meals.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> All flex meal trains will have this menu starting tomorrow (or the 7th-probably depends on which station the train is originating from).
> I have no idea how they compare - guess we'll find out in a day or two when they update the menus online.


Well, let me change my tune and get excited for once... I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt!


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## Sidney (Oct 5, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Well, let me change my tune and get excited for once... I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt!


I noticed both shrimp meals are gone. I probably "enjoyed" them the most. I'll be on the CONO and Crescent next month.


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## joelkfla (Oct 5, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Of course it's going to be microwaved....  Well, maybe if it's not too busy, they'll use the convection ovens, but of course it's all precooked packaged meals that are reheated.


No, I wasn't expecting it to be fresh-grilled, but in the case of bread products, reheated is usually far superior to microwaved.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 5, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> No, I wasn't expecting it to be fresh-grilled, but in the case of bread products, reheated is usually far superior to microwaved.


Oh, when I've head the flex meals, they don't microwave to rolls to heat them. At least we can be grateful for small things.


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## dlagrua (Oct 5, 2021)

IMO, the new dinner menu doesn't appear to be much of an improvement over the previous one. The selections have shrunken. It is a disappointment. If we must eat fast food how about a Chicken pot pie, Open turkey sandwich with gravy & vegetables, Lobster Roll, Meatloaf or Seafood au gratin? You can get a far better meal at even a budget place like Panara Bread


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 5, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> IMO, the new dinner menu doesn't appear to be much of an improvement over the previous one. The selections have shrunken. It is a disappointment. If we must eat fast food how about a Chicken pot pie, Open turkey sandwich with gravy & vegetables, Lobster Roll, Meatloaf or Seafood au gratin? You can get a far better meal at even a budget place like Panara Bread


Thankfully, for vegetarians and other diet restricted people, you aren’t in charge of the menu. 

well, we can wait and see what the new menu will be like. It could be an improvement in cooking and presentation.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 5, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> IMO, the new dinner menu doesn't appear to be much of an improvement over the previous one. The selections have shrunken. It is a disappointment. If we must eat fast food how about a Chicken pot pie, Open turkey sandwich with gravy & vegetables, Lobster Roll, Meatloaf or Seafood au gratin? You can get a far better meal at even a budget place like Panara Bread


Well, Panera isn't frozen food.  

Nobody has said it was meant as an improvement. My guess is they're tweaking the old menu based on feedback WHILE they get things ready for the upgrades that are coming late 2021 (for the Meteor, I believe), 1st Qtr 2022 (for the other trains).

As I said earlier, it IS an improvement for my picky tongue. There's actually some things I'll try.


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## keelhauled (Oct 5, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> You can get a far better meal at even a budget place like Panara Bread


Possibly the first time I've ever seen "budget" used in connection with Panera...


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## Exvalley (Oct 5, 2021)

The omelet now comes with chicken sausage rather than a KIND bar or muffin. I would say that's an improvement for those of us trying to watch our carbs.

The beef now comes with mashed potatoes rather than polenta. I actually prefer polenta, but I think that I am in the minority.

I was hoping for something more Acela style, but this seems like it will be just a minor tweak to what they already offer. Hopefully I am proven wrong about that.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 5, 2021)

There are some good sounding entrees. Looking at the beverage list, no more half bottles of wine? Is $8.50/glass a bit pricey for a glass of wine? I am not familiar with the quality of Barefoot Wines. Is that an improvement?


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## Exvalley (Oct 5, 2021)

neroden said:


> especially if they've had the common sense to offer PLAIN oatmeal, which they had not done previously.


It says, "assorted cereals and oatmeal." I wouldn't hold your breath on plain oatmeal being one of the choices. My hunch is that the oatmeal selection will remain the same. We shall see...


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## pennyk (Oct 5, 2021)

neroden said:


> Looks like little change on lunch/dinner. Still missing ingredients lists, which means I can't eat any of it. If they published the ingredients, some of that might be fine.



I just spent a long time on the phone with Customer Relations regarding my food allergy and my upcoming trip. I am allergic to garlic and a while ago and very nice and resourceful CR agent performed research and determined that all of the flex meals contained garlic. I have now inquired (of another agent) whether the salmon flex meal contains garlic. I am doubtful whether I will hear back before my trip. It looks like I may need to bring food for 3 days on the train. I did mention that publishing the ingredients list would make passengers happy and also would avoid the necessity of calls to CR to ask about ingredients.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, Panera isn't frozen food.



I’m guessing many of the Panera items arrive at the store frozen.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Oct 5, 2021)

Barefoot is generally considered drinkable but low end wine. 4.99-5.99 a bottle on sale. According to my Target app it’s 7.49 reg price.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 5, 2021)

Well for my LSL in October, I will likely be bringing my own food still. This really doesn’t convince me to change course.


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## Sidney (Oct 5, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> There are some good sounding entrees. Looking at the beverage list, no more half bottles of wine? Is $8.50/glass a bit pricey for a glass of wine? I am not familiar with the quality of Barefoot Wines. Is that an improvement?


Go to any grocery or liquor store and you can buy a four pack of those wines for 7 to 8 dollars. I always bring them with me.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 5, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> There are some good sounding entrees. Looking at the beverage list, no more half bottles of wine? Is $8.50/glass a bit pricey for a glass of wine? I am not familiar with the quality of Barefoot Wines. Is that an improvement?


NO!


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> View attachment 24739


This looks similar to the Choices I had on my FC Acela trip from NYP- BWI in May!


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## Exvalley (Oct 5, 2021)

It looks like the wine will come in these single-serve bottles:











Barefoot Wine adds single-serve bottles of its top-selling varietals


Californian wine brand Barefoot Wine has added to its range of wines with the launch of new single-serve glass bottles.




www.foodbev.com


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## Exvalley (Oct 5, 2021)

Two pasta dishes seems excessive. I wish that the chicken was not a pasta dish.


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## me_little_me (Oct 5, 2021)

Well, I'll give them credit for the breakfast improvements.

We'll see about lunch/dinner. On outgoing trip we'll give it a try. Then we can order kosher meal on return if necessary.

"Ask your server about seasonal dessert selections". Hope that doesn't mean "Until we have real meals, we have an excellent selection of brownies and blondies. Would you like one wrapped or unwrapped? Ala carte or just plain?"


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## joelkfla (Oct 5, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Well, I'll give them credit for the breakfast improvements.
> 
> We'll see about lunch/dinner. On outgoing trip we'll give it a try. Then we can order kosher meal on return if necessary.
> 
> "Ask your server about seasonal dessert selections". Hope that doesn't mean "Until we have real meals, we have an excellent selection of brownies and blondies. Would you like one wrapped or unwrapped? Ala carte or just plain?"


Only during months with "B"s in their name. If you eat them out of season, you'll get browniosis.


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## nferr (Oct 5, 2021)

Sidney said:


> I noticed both shrimp meals are gone. I probably "enjoyed" them the most. I'll be on the CONO and Crescent next month.



Yeah the menus were much larger last summer. You had at least 8 choices of flex "dinners".


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## Oaxacajo (Oct 5, 2021)

nferr said:


> Yeah the menus were much larger last summer. You had at least 8 choices of flex "dinners".


I, for one, am happy to see this. Hopefully most everyone will be surprised. Of course, there are always the perennial critics who will never be happy and love bashing Amtrak food.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 5, 2021)

Oaxacajo said:


> I, for one, am happy to see this. Hopefully most everyone will be surprised. Of course, there are always the perennial critics who will never be happy and love bashing Amtrak food.



You’re happy to see less options for lunch and dinner?


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## joelkfla (Oct 5, 2021)

I just noticed something. The picture is not very clear, but the fine print on the bottom right says "Egg substitute available on request." Does that mean the omelet will be cooked to order? Dare we hope the French toast will be too? Will we be able to mix and match as in olden days, like swap sausage for bacon, or add potatoes to the French toast?


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## Cal (Oct 5, 2021)

Interesting. That's all I shall say for now


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 5, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I just noticed something. The picture is not very clear, but the fine print on the bottom right says "Egg substitute available on request." Does that mean the omelet will be cooked to order? Dare we hope the French toast will be too? Will we be able to mix and match as in olden days, like swap sausage for bacon, or add potatoes to the French toast?



It means they'll give you a heated packaged omelet made with an egg substitute, not a real egg. As far as I can gather, these are just new menu items, they're not adding a cook to the staff.


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## Sauve850 (Oct 5, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I just noticed something. The picture is not very clear, but the fine print on the bottom right says "Egg substitute available on request." Does that mean the omelet will be cooked to order? Dare we hope the French toast will be too? Will we be able to mix and match as in olden days, like swap sausage for bacon, or add potatoes to the French toast?


 Nice thought but I seriously doubt it.


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## Ryan (Oct 5, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m guessing many of the Panera items arrive at the store frozen.


Some, not all.








Food At Panera That Isn't As Fresh As You Think - Mashed


When you visit Panera, do you expect all their bread, baked goods, soup, mac and cheese, and other menu items to be freshly prepared? Do you expect drink machines to be free of mold? If the answer is yes, you'll want to learn which foods Panera is serving up that aren't nearly as fresh as you think.




www.mashed.com


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## cocojacoby (Oct 5, 2021)

So no side salads? Beer selection is rather lacking too. Wonder if you get a roll?


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## lordsigma (Oct 5, 2021)

nferr said:


> Yeah the menus were much larger last summer. You had at least 8 choices of flex "dinners".



On the Covid western trains flex menu there were 8 - in the east it’s been pretty much 5 choices all along (and an occasional extra that’s not on the menu.) this menu is basically a refresh of the five dinner options and an extra breakfast choice - omelette looks like it could be slightly different too. So for breakfast there’s a little more choices - for lunch/dinner it’s basically status quo.



dlagrua said:


> IMO, the new dinner menu doesn't appear to be much of an improvement over the previous one. The selections have shrunken. It is a disappointment. If we must eat fast food how about a Chicken pot pie, Open turkey sandwich with gravy & vegetables, Lobster Roll, Meatloaf or Seafood au gratin? You can get a far better meal at even a budget place like Panara Bread


As stated above it hasn’t shrunken - it was five choices before and five now - this is more just the latest refresh than a dramatically new menu. The enchiladas and pasta and meatballs haven’t changed - the beef and chicken options were slightly changed and they went from the shrimp/andouille to the salmon thing. Additional choices were offered on the western trains when flexible dining was what was offered there. I don’t think this has any bearing on long term plans - they did a “refresh” to the flexible dining not too big long before they announced the return of traditional dining in the west. Previous menu here:



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-East-0221.pdf


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## MARC Rider (Oct 5, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> There are some good sounding entrees. Looking at the beverage list, no more half bottles of wine? Is $8.50/glass a bit pricey for a glass of wine? I am not familiar with the quality of Barefoot Wines. Is that an improvement?


Restaurant wine prices are always inflated compared to what you pay at the liquor store. The Chicago restaurant menus I'm checking over sell wine by the glass for $10 - $20 for basic decent wine.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 5, 2021)

keelhauled said:


> Possibly the first time I've ever seen "budget" used in connection with Panera...


Most people probably save luxurious dining experiences like Panera for special occasions such as birthdays and anniversaries but I think the point is that Amtrak sleeper fares can costs thousands compared to Panera's ten dollar entrees.


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## flitcraft (Oct 5, 2021)

Barefoot wine is about the cheapest wine there is (if you eliminate 'wine' like Thunderbird). My daughter calls Barefoot "wine flavored beverage," and she isn't wrong. Sweet, no varietal character, but the standard dose of alcohol.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 6, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> There are some good sounding entrees. Looking at the beverage list, no more half bottles of wine? Is $8.50/glass a bit pricey for a glass of wine? I am not familiar with the quality of Barefoot Wines. Is that an improvement?


If I recall correctly, you had to go to the cafe to get the half bottles. The wine in the flex diners has been Barefoot for some time I believe. Barefoot is drinkable but not the greatest. In the traditional dining cars they had a somewhat better selection, Kendall Jackson for the white, I don't recall the red as I don't drink red.


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## BLNT (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm guessing this does not apply to the Auto Train (especially the yogurt, crumble cake, cereal, and banana they offer for breakfast)? Something irks me after spending a grand plus for an overnight bedroom and getting cold options for breakfast!


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## lordsigma (Oct 6, 2021)

BLNT said:


> I'm guessing this does not apply to the Auto Train (especially the yogurt, crumble cake, cereal, and banana they offer for breakfast)? Something irks me after spending a grand plus for an overnight bedroom and getting cold options for breakfast!


Auto Train is its own deal - traditional dining dinner and a continental breakfast as you described for sleeper - Cafe in CCC car for coach - you might also be able to buy a Jimmy Dean in the CCC and sleeper lounge cars. CCC has a full cafe menu - the sleeper lounge is mainly booze and I think they also have the burgers, pizzas, and maybe hot dogs also.


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## lordsigma (Oct 6, 2021)

Back to flexible dining - I will amend my previous comment to say - there will be less choices now on the Texas Eagle as they are switching to the same menu as the east......but my comment on switching 5 for 5 applies to all others.


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## BLNT (Oct 6, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Auto Train is its own deal - traditional dining dinner and a continental breakfast as you described for sleeper - Cafe in CCC car for coach - you might also be able to buy a Jimmy Dean in the CCC and sleeper lounge cars. CCC has a full cafe menu - the sleeper lounge is mainly booze and I think they also have the burgers, pizzas, and maybe hot dogs also.



Thanks

On the Auto Train we've learned to bring wine and a cooler with snacks/cheese/sandwiches - for those times when a 12 hour delay (our FIRST Amtrak experience) occurs!

As it stands now - we simply forgo breakfast, and hit a drive thru somewhere after getting our car.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 6, 2021)

It would be helpful if they had a sandwich. I like the artisan grilled cheese on the west coast trains. This would be an easy add for west coast trains.


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## cocojacoby (Oct 6, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> It would be helpful if they had a sandwich. I like the artisan grilled cheese on the west coast trains. This would be an easy add for west coast trains.


Yes, I was thinking why not a separate LUNCH menu where you can pick a few additional things (optional to the LUNCH/DINER) like a burger; grilled ham and cheese; a salad plate; seafood, ham or chicken salad sandwich; etc.? Otherwise I might be eating the same thing twice both ways on the Silvers.


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2021)

Limiting some menu choices to a single meal period does not make for more choices.

If you're advocating for more things on the menu, sure. But there's no value in making them a separate lunch-only option.


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## NYP2NFL01 (Oct 6, 2021)

What? No more "specialty" "gourmet" brownie or blondie? Unbreak my heart!!!!


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## joelkfla (Oct 6, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> It would be helpful if they had a sandwich. I like the artisan grilled cheese on the west coast trains. This would be an easy add for west coast trains.


I presume you mean to east coast trains.

But if it's true that there's no cook in the kitchen, and everything is still being microwaved or reheated, then it would not be an easy add.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Oct 6, 2021)

It is our go to for making Sangria add a bunch of sliced fruit and sometimes a shot of tequila if it’s a blanc. That’s the only reason I occasionally buy it. As I said before it’s drinkable but 2 buck chuck is as well. It’s actually kinda insulting Amtrak is serving it, I’ve never been to a restaurant that’s served it or noticed it on an airline menu.



flitcraft said:


> Barefoot wine is about the cheapest wine there is (if you eliminate 'wine' like Thunderbird). My daughter calls Barefoot "wine flavored beverage," and she isn't wrong. Sweet, no varietal character, but the standard dose of alcohol.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 6, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I presume you mean to east coast trains.
> 
> But if it's true that there's no cook in the kitchen, and everything is still being microwaved or reheated, then it would not be an easy add.



It would be easy to add a pre-made sandwich to the menu though. And/Or an entree salad.


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## cocojacoby (Oct 6, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Limiting some menu choices to a single meal period does not make for more choices.
> 
> If you're advocating for more things on the menu, sure. But there's no value in making them a separate lunch-only option.



I said "OPTIONAL". A few items available for lunch only in addition to the "Lunch/Diner" choices.


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## lordsigma (Oct 6, 2021)

I have had a couple trips where they have some cafe car burgers/hot dogs in the diner as an alternative to flex dinners. But it’s not on the menu and you have to ask if they have any extra non menu options.


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I said "OPTIONAL". A few items available for lunch only in addition to the diner choices.


That's my point. Why make them available for lunch only? What if I want one of them for dinner?


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 6, 2021)

Ryan said:


> That's my point. Why make them available for lunch only? What if I want one of them for dinner?



I think the idea was to have a few lunch-ish options available for lunch. I don’t think the OP would have a problem with them also being available for dinner.


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## Exvalley (Oct 6, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the idea was to have a few lunch-ish options available for lunch. I don’t think the OP would have a problem with them also being available for dinner.


That's how I read it as well.

It's not a bad idea, at least for the eastern trains that travel during the lunch hour - such as the CONO.


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## Sidney (Oct 6, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It would be easy to add a pre-made sandwich to the menu though. And/Or an entree salad.


Never understood why sandwiches weren't part of the flex menu. Most people would welcome it. Sandwich for lunch. Flex dreck for dinner. Seems so simple,doesn't it?


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the idea was to have a few lunch-ish options available for lunch. I don’t think the OP would have a problem with them also being available for dinner.





Exvalley said:


> That's how I read it as well.
> 
> It's not a bad idea, at least for the eastern trains that travel during the lunch hour - such as the CONO.



I'm not sure how you can read "available for lunch only" to literally mean the opposite.

I agree that additional options are a great idea. I disagree that disallowing them from being eaten during dinner is a good idea.


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## toddinde (Oct 6, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Thankfully, for vegetarians and other diet restricted people, you aren’t in charge of the menu.
> 
> well, we can wait and see what the new menu will be like. It could be an improvement in cooking and presentation.


What odd menu suggestions. I don’t see anything wrong with the offerings. A lobster roll? Really?


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## Exvalley (Oct 6, 2021)

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure how you can read "available for lunch only" to literally mean the opposite.


Ah... I had missed that part. If they are going to offer it, they might as well offer it for all meals.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 6, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Restaurant wine prices are always inflated compared to what you pay at the liquor store. The Chicago restaurant menus I'm checking over sell wine by the glass for $10 - $20 for basic decent wine.



The mark-up on wine or any alcoholic beverage is where restaurants make the most money. It seems to be a consensus that Barefoot does not even make the standard of "basic decent wine". If so, then, maybe $8.50/glass will be a big money maker for Amtrak.



flitcraft said:


> Barefoot wine is about the cheapest wine there is (if you eliminate 'wine' like Thunderbird). My daughter calls Barefoot "wine flavored beverage," and she isn't wrong. Sweet, no varietal character, but the standard dose of alcohol.



As another poster said, it is rather insulting to us wine drinkers that such a low quality beverage is offered by Amtrak.



AmtrakMaineiac said:


> If I recall correctly, you had to go to the cafe to get the half bottles. The wine in the flex diners has been Barefoot for some time I believe. Barefoot is drinkable but not the greatest. In the traditional dining cars they had a somewhat better selection, Kendall Jackson for the white, I don't recall the red as I don't drink red.



I recall that half bottles could be obtained in the dining car as well as in the Cafe/Lounge Car. Kendall Jackson was the label for both Red and White, as I remember. Those were satisfactory wines, I thought.


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## Exvalley (Oct 6, 2021)

A four pack of 187 ml Barefoot wine bottles will run you about $6.99 in the grocery store. Compare that to the $8.50 per glass that Amtrak is charging.

Amtrak should do all right.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 6, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> As another poster said, it is rather insulting to us wine drinkers that such a low quality beverage is offered by Amtrak.


I'm not much of a wine drinker but back during the Boardman era the traditional PPC wine tasting was good enough that I not only tried some but ended up purchasing a few bottles in the process. Today the wine, beer, and cocktail selection is so poor that I prefer to bring my own drinks instead.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 6, 2021)

All of this wine talk more or less refutes the common assertion that the overnight LD Amtrak routes are "subsidized land cruises for the rich." Rich people don't take Amtrak... unless theyre railfans or some other highly specific reason.
There is nothing fancy about an overnight Amtrak train. It certainly is better than the coach alternative, but the recent dining improvements have only made it bearable, not fancy...


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## cocojacoby (Oct 6, 2021)

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure how you can read "available for lunch only" to literally mean the opposite.
> 
> I agree that additional options are a great idea. I disagree that disallowing them from being eaten during dinner is a good idea.


Well you need to consider that the cook may have his/her hands full at dinner providing the set meals. Lunch might be easier to make a few sandwiches on the side even pre-making them before serving times. It's like at McDonalds when they change from breakfast to lunch. There are products that need different processes and preparation. I have usually found dinner to be more hectic for the staff than lunch.


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2021)

Who is this “cook” person and what are these “different processes and preparation” that you speak of?


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## zephyr17 (Oct 6, 2021)

I guess shoving a frozen block of sodium and fat into a microwave does qualify as a "process" of a sort.


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## Cal (Oct 6, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I guess shoving a frozen block of sodium and fat into a microwave does qualify as a "process" of a sort.


And the “different processes and preparation” part of it? I'll wait. 

The only time there's a (slightly) different process is for breakfast. which is not relevent.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 6, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Lunch might be easier to make a few sandwiches on the side even pre-making them before serving times.



Any sandwich served as part of flex will be 100% premade.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 6, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Any sandwich served as part of flex will be 100% premade.


And not onboard


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## VentureForth (Oct 7, 2021)

Anyone onboard right now who's had a chance to try this?


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

pennyk said:


> I just spent a long time on the phone with Customer Relations regarding my food allergy and my upcoming trip. I am allergic to garlic and a while ago and very nice and resourceful CR agent performed research and determined that all of the flex meals contained garlic. I have now inquired (of another agent) whether the salmon flex meal contains garlic. I am doubtful whether I will hear back before my trip. It looks like I may need to bring food for 3 days on the train. I did mention that publishing the ingredients list would make passengers happy and also would avoid the necessity of calls to CR to ask about ingredients.


Thank you. The failure to publish ingredients lists has been one of the biggest ongoing problems with Amtrak for a long time, and is a rather serious ADA violation. I hope we can finally get them to start acting like any other restaurant...


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## Danib62 (Oct 7, 2021)

neroden said:


> The failure to publish ingredients lists has been one of the biggest ongoing problems with Amtrak for a long time, and is a rather serious ADA violation.


[citation needed]


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

Severe allergies are a disability. Reasonable accomodations for such allergies include ingredients lists. Both of these were established in a DOJ settlement in the Lesley University case, and have been confirmed subsequently.

It's not clear to what extent any further accomodations beyond ingredients lists would be needed in a case where the meal purchase was not mandatory -- though note that Amtrak has made the meal purchases mandatory in the sleepers.

Ingredients lists are the very epitome of reasonable accomodations, as they require no significant change to operations. Failure to provide ingredients lists is clear discrimination, as it prohibits a person from eating the food served who *is not actually allergic to the food being served*, just because they are allergic to some other thing which is *not* in the food.

I have also been told by California restauranteurs that ingredients lists are required under California law, though I haven't verified this.

I have also been personally told by an ADA lawyer that anyone who can prove that their allergy is severe and life-threatening or health-threatening, and therefore that it qualifies as a disability, can win an ingredients list case. May not be able to get any other accomodations, but ingredients lists, yes.


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## Danib62 (Oct 7, 2021)

The courts have pretty consistently held that food allergies or intolerances are not considered disabilities. See: _Phillips v. P.F. Chang’s China Bistro, Inc._, 2015 WL 4694049, at *9 (N.D. Cal. Aug. 6, 2015) and _Slade v. Hershey Co._, 2011 WL 3159164 (M.D.Pa. Jul. 26, 2011).

A settlement is not binding as case law.

Your friend is wrong.


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## Danib62 (Oct 7, 2021)

Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known


Correct


> which Amtrak will do if you call them up.


WRONG.

You've never tried, have you?


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## Danib62 (Oct 7, 2021)

Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> The courts have pretty consistently held that food allergies or intolerances are not considered disabilities. See: _Phillips v. P.F. Chang’s China Bistro, Inc._, 2015 WL 4694049, at *9 (N.D. Cal. Aug. 6, 2015)


Not apposite. Was requesting something different, and was apparently voluntarily dismissed.



> and _Slade v. Hershey Co._, 2011 WL 3159164 (M.D.Pa. Jul. 26, 2011).


Not apposite. Was requesting something different, and was an "essential duties of employment" case. Worse for your argument, the ruling in that very case says "Though a permanent, chronic, and severe allergy may constitute a disability,"...

You don't know your law or your juries. Take an ingredients list case to a jury, and the response is going to be "*** is wrong with you that you can't provide an ingredients list?"


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.



The fact is, Amtrak has been extraordinarily inconsistent. I can state quite definitely that I can *sometimes* get ingredients lists and *usually* I can't.

I have no idea what's going on in there. It seems like the simplest thing in the world for Amtrak to fix. It should not require a federal case.


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## pennyk (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.



I have tried to get ingredients from Amtrak for over 10 years and have been unable to do so. In years past, the LSAs would have a book that listed the ingredients for certain entrees (pre flex meals). I have not been able to get ingredients of flex meals. A couple of years ago, a CR agent informed me that all the flex meal lunch/dinner entrees contained garlic. I am allergic to garlic and thus am unable to eat the flex meals. I have not been able to determine the ingredients of the new flex meals.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Even under the Lesley you settlement you cite a restaurant can comply by telling a customer what ingredients are in a dish if known which Amtrak will do if you call them up. It does not require them to proactively make ingredient lists available for anyone who wants one.



Yeah... no, Amtrak won't do this...


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## cocojacoby (Oct 7, 2021)

I would think the suppliers should have this info and supply it to Amtrak.


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## pennyk (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.


As stated previously, I have tried to get ingredients for over 10 years. The information was never retrieved by telephone. Unless you have actual experience, I suggest that you not disagree with @neroden who has been trying to get ingredients for quite a while.


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## Tlcooper93 (Oct 7, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I would think the suppliers should have this info and supply it to Amtrak.


I'm sure if an Amtrak attendant searched hard enough, this information could be found. 
I've never had success obtaining an ingredients list.


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

The crazy thing is, Amtrak, at some departmental level, *has* the ingredients lists. These items did not fall off the back of a truck. They are not mystery meat. They do not contain "secret sauce". They all come with ingredients list labels and the product vendors all provide ingredients lists sheets when Amtrak orders the food.

It is remarkably bizarre customer disservice that Amtrak cannot simply pass it on. It's also an ADA violation, but it's a really whacko what-are-you-thinking one. It just doesn't come up with other food service providers, because they all just... go get the ingredients lists.

If I may make an analogy: it's like a store where they have a wheelchair access ramp to the routinely-used back door, but whenever anyone with a wheelchair calls, they claim they don't have a wheelchair access ramp and refuse to tell them about the back door. It is practically zero-cost to fix the problem here, and Amtrak management's refusal to do so (despite help from the occasional Amtrak employee -- the frontline people *do* always try to help) is bizarre.


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## pennyk (Oct 7, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I'm sure if an Amtrak attendant searched hard enough, this information could be found.
> I've never had success obtaining an ingredients list.


I do not think the on train attendants have access to the information. However, it can be found. Right after contemporary meals started, an Amtrak employee that I know (who I ran into in the Chicago Lounge) tried to find out ingredients for me. It took a little over an hour but he was able to tell me which contemporary meals contained garlic. I ended up having the children's turkey and cheese sandwich on the CL that evening (which was pretty awful since I do not eat white bread).
The information is there but it is not easily accessible for employees let alone passengers.


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## Exvalley (Oct 7, 2021)

neroden said:


> Reasonable accomodations for such allergies include ingredients lists. Both of these were established in a DOJ settlement in the Lesley University case, and have been confirmed subsequently.



I just read through the settlement agreement. It did not require the University to disclose actual ingredient lists. The University had to do a lot of things, but that was not one of them.


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## neroden (Oct 7, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I just read through the settlement agreement. It did not require the University to disclose actual ingredient lists. The University had to do a lot of things, but that was not one of them.


I stand corrected -- that student actually wanted to be fed. 

Ingredients lists are specifically called out as a likely reasonable accomodation in the last Department of Justice guidance document I read. Again, I do not have that one to hand, but can dig it up if necessary. No jury is going to call them an UNreasonable accomodation...

In general, "provide information which your organization already possesses, which is not commercially confidential", has always been considered a reasonable accomodation. For... obvious reasons.


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## Exvalley (Oct 7, 2021)

The Department of Justice issued guidance after the Lesley University agreement came out.

Here is an excerpt:

*4. Does the ADA require that all public accommodations that serve food, like restaurants, also serve gluten-free or allergen-free food?
A:* No. The ADA does not require that every place of public accommodation that serves food to the public provide gluten-free or allergen-free food. The Lesley Agreement involved a mandatory meal program for a defined group of students. Because its meal plan was mandatory for all students living on campus, the ADA required that the University make reasonable modifications to the plan to accommodate students with celiac disease and other food allergies. This is different than the ADA's obligation for restaurants that serve the general public.

*5. What might a restaurant or other similar place of public accommodation need to do to accommodate an individual with celiac disease or other food allergies?
A:* A restaurant may have to take some reasonable steps to accommodate individuals with disabilities where it does not result in a fundamental alteration of that restaurant's operations. By way of example only, this may include: 1) answering questions from diners about menu item ingredients, where the ingredients are known, or 2) omitting or substituting certain ingredients upon request if the restaurant normally does this for other customers.





__





Redirecting…






www.ada.gov


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## me_little_me (Oct 7, 2021)

Danib62 said:


> Multiple people on this very message board have written that that have been provided this information upon request when calling though some experience lengthy waits while the information is retrieved.



Once again, Amtrak management has chosen to hide this information when it could so easily be made available. This is consistent with everything else this PUBLICLY OWNED COMPANY (i.e. owned by the people of the United States) has tried to do when it comes to hiding information.


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## fdaley (Oct 8, 2021)

Having a choice of omelette or French toast for breakfast does seem like an improvement. The last time I took any of the flex trains, the only warm options for breakfast were the Jimmy Dean sandwich or instant oatmeal. I stuck to the cold options and found myself hungry about an hour later. 

The lunch and dinner selections on this menu seem like new variations on the same failed flex model. I'm assuming this is just an intermediate step before Amtrak's promised upgrade to meal service on the eastern LD trains, so I think I'll wait for that before planning any overnight trips involving these trains. But if I had to take the eastbound Lake Shore, which doesn't offer dinner out of Chicago in any case, perhaps the breakfast would be good enough to power me most of the way back to my home turf at Albany.


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## Maverickstation (Oct 8, 2021)

For those riding any of the eastern LD trains, keep us posted on what you find, as Amtrak has yet to update the Flex Dining Menus on their site. 









Amtrak Flexible Dining







www.amtrak.com





Ken


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## PaTrainFan (Oct 8, 2021)

While any ugrade to "flex" menus is welcome, chances are this means is the re-inroduction of modified "traditional" dining on Eastern trains is pushed further down the road.


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## Ryan (Oct 8, 2021)

Not necessarily.


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## NYP2NFL01 (Oct 8, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> Anyone onboard right now who's had a chance to try this?


So, has anyone actually eaten (or, attempted to eat) one of these new menu choices?


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## cocojacoby (Oct 8, 2021)

There are reports on other sites about experiencing this new menu on the Lake Shore. Mention of the crew delivering food to seated riders vs. standing in line to pick up your own food. Says the food is still microwaved and not cooked to order but Short Ribs were "tender and delicious", French Toast was "hot and tasty" and the Bacon was "awesome".


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## PaTrainFan (Oct 8, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Not necessarily.


I hope not necessarily but I find it hard to believe given the plodding operation that is Amtrak that they would put this much effort into refreshing flex dining only to switch to modified traditional within a very few months. But, of course, none of us know what their timeline is, given Amtrak's lack of transparency.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 8, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> I hope not necessarily but I find it hard to believe given the plodding operation that is Amtrak that they would put this much effort into refreshing flex dining only to switch to modified traditional within a very few months. But, of course, none of us know what their timeline is, given Amtrak's lack of transparency.


How much effort was put into this switch? Call vendor and ask to swap out some things? Print new menus (yes, they're just on paper right now)? That doesn't sound like much effort.
As to timeline to change to a more traditional meal, assuming they need more staff to support it, maybe they're not getting qualified people applying for those positions. And the ones they do get need to be trained.


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## Ziv (Oct 8, 2021)

There is a place called the Italian Store near me that is so popular they pre-make dozens and dozens of Italian Cold Cut sandwiches between 11 am and noon so that if you choose to you can grab a pre-made sandwich without waiting. ( I know this practice is pretty widespread but the Italian Store is the place near me that does it best) These sandwiches are delicious and really well made. Pre-made doesn't have to be a death sentence for good food. If Amtrak chose to staff up a bit, the cook could pre-make sandwiches for lunch that would be served quickly without sacrificing quality.
Sadly, I don't think most east coast Amtrak trains have enough staff to even pre-make a decent sandwich.


AmtrakBlue said:


> And not onboard


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 8, 2021)

Ziv said:


> There is a place called the Italian Store near me that is so popular they pre-make dozens and dozens of Italian Cold Cut sandwiches between 11 am and noon so that if you choose to you can grab a pre-made sandwich without waiting. ( I know this practice is pretty widespread but the Italian Store is the place near me that does it best) These sandwiches are delicious and really well made. Pre-made doesn't have to be a death sentence for good food. If Amtrak chose to staff up a bit, the cook could pre-make sandwiches for lunch that would be served quickly without sacrificing quality.
> Sadly, I don't think most east coast Amtrak trains have enough staff to even pre-make a decent sandwich.


The Cardinal used to serve Special Sandwiches that were assembled by the LSA/SCA/ Cook ( same person) that were Excellent compared to the Flex type stuff that was on the Menu.


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## Cal (Oct 8, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Not necessarily.


But still possible,


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## Sidney (Oct 8, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> There are reports on other sites about experiencing this new menu on the Lake Shore. Mention of the crew delivering food to seated riders vs. standing in line to pick up your own food. Says the food is still microwaved and not cooked to order but Short Ribs were "tender and delicious", French Toast was "hot and tasty" and the Bacon was "awesome".


tender and delicious,hot and tasty and awesome are not adjectives normally used to describe flex food,but if this is the case I may actually look forward to meals when I'm on the CONO and Crescent next month.


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## Ryan (Oct 8, 2021)

Ziv said:


> If Amtrak chose to staff up a bit, the cook could pre-make sandwiches for lunch that would be served quickly without sacrificing quality.



I still wanna know where these mysterious "cooks" are. Trains with the flex meals don't have



PaTrainFan said:


> While any ugrade to "flex" menus is welcome, chances are this means is the re-inroduction of modified "traditional" dining on Eastern trains is pushed further down the road.





Ryan said:


> Not necessarily.





Cal said:


> But still possible,


There's an implied measure of causation that's missing here. Changing the menu isn't going to delay the re-introduction of "traditional" dining. Perhaps it signals that it's "not soon". Or perhaps these menus will be relatively short lived.


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## dlagrua (Oct 9, 2021)

Quite frankly on our 2020 trip to Glacier (Whitefish) we were served that flex food and it was sickening. We haven't been on Amtrak since. We refuse to pay big bucks to travel and be served horrible tasting food. 
A few years back, in the Cardinal diner-lite they didn't have the full traditional dining service as on the other CHI trains. The food was pre-prepared, convection oven warmed and served but acceptable for an overnight trip. If the chef/server knew what he was doing even the breakfast omelets were moist and tasty but this flex stuff that is now masquerading as food is enough to keep us away. For the past 18 years we've spent several thousand dollars a year on Amtrak trips but we just couldn't stomach that fodder for 2021. We are not fond of flying but we can put up with first class air. Its far less expensive, you get movies/TV and on longer trips the food is better. Next year its a road trip. 
If that's the way the game needs to be played so be it.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 9, 2021)

I was looking at the breakfast served to my students at a school in the south side of Chicago in Englewood. The students got a stick of cheese, a container of cereal and a breakfast bar and a container of milk. So kindergarten students are essentially eating the same types of food that were served to first class passengers for flex dining before the French toast and omelettes were added.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 9, 2021)

So here's the deal with the 'refreshed' flex menu... after just stepping off the TE at Springfield Ill... traveling since LAX.

First though, the highlight of the entire trip was to meet Jim Hudson [Bob Dylan] in Austin... what a cool train guy... and ump, and AU supporter! Also took a few pics of Jim's hometown Alpine TX. My first time to actually meet another AU'er. And thank you Jim for tracking the train with all those tips and info. Do c'mon up to my place on the Oregon Coast when you find time... I have a guest cottage. Meanwhile I'll try to get the the 2022 AU gathering.




Now for the 'changed' flex menu. This is what changed...
The contents of the heated dishes has a good taste, with higher quality ingredients. The Salmon with jasmine rice, mushrooms and other oriental veggies tasted authentic... and the piece of salmon was top quality.

The hot breakfast dish was also tasty and higher quality. I also tried the chicken and the beef... an upgrade from before.
IMHO that brings FLEX dining from an 'F' to a 'D-' Below... the breakfast omelet and the chicken dish...








Keeping with the shortlist of positives... the food tasted better than it looked... even better with a little tabasco! To sum up the positives... was as good as a small hot casserole dish on a business class flight. I believe the beef and the salmon are also served on Acela 1st... but on a ceramic dish. Airlines also serve their business class customers with a starter course, substantial salad, and a premium dessert.

Now to evaluate the salad... I don't consider this to be a 'course' as the amount is barely enough for a bite. The little plastic cup fits into the palm of one's hand. There is a small speck of red cabbage and one or two small cherry tomatoes. It's an insult. 'Try not to eat the salad bite and think of the cost of your ticket at the same time!'




I am also disregarding the desserts... the brownies, because while they are good the first, second, and third time... that's all you get between San Antonio and Chicago! [With more brownies if you're moving on to the East Coast.]

Technical notes: the plastic dishes are heated in a convection oven with aluminum lids kept in place so the food comes to the traveler without possibility of covid contamination... and it does arrive hot. There is only one cafe attendant for the entire TE train who must heat up all the meals for sleepers and tend the cafe for coach customers. Apparently management is running the staff into the ground.

Biggest issue with flex concept is small [as in small] - I repeat... small small portions. Actually there is just one small hot item for the meal... plus the roll, salad bite, and brownie if you aren't sick of eating them.

As I sat in the cafe car there was a chorus of discontent amongst the sleeper car passengers... poor service and not enough to eat. Repeat... not enough to eat. Yet the TE has some of the highest bucket fares on the entire Amtrak system.

So that is why... IMHO... the flex meal program has been upgraded from an 'F' to a D minus.

More comments coming regarding the many problems being incurred with the full service dining program. Stay posted.


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## Cal (Oct 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> So here's the deal with the 'refreshed' flex menu... after just stepping off the TE at Springfield Ill... traveling since LAX.
> 
> First though, the highlight of the entire trip was to meet Jim Hudson [Bob Dylan] in Austin... what a cool train guy... and ump, and AU supporter! Also took a few pics of Jim's hometown Alpine TX. My first time to actually meet another AU'er. And thank you Jim for tracking the train with all those tips and info. Do c'mon up to my place on the Oregon Coast when you find time... I have a guest cottage. Meanwhile I'll try to get the the 2022 AU gathering.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. Good to know it's better. 

On a different note, I have also met Jim on the TE. Total coincidence we had booked on the same train.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 9, 2021)

Cal said:


> Thanks for your feedback. Good to know it's better.
> 
> On a different note, I have also met Jim on the TE. Total coincidence we had booked on the same train.


He's a really great guy! Now I'm looking forward to the 2022 gathering so I can meet you and others... really some fantastic folks on this forum. Cheers!


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## Rambling Robert (Oct 9, 2021)

20th Century; That was a great report (above) about the “temp flex” (haha) on the TE.

in December 2017 on the TE I was travelling in Coach but had traditional dining for the first time. Pasta, white sauce and plenty of veggies. $13. Filling. B+

The TE LA to Chi is Amtrak’s longest route. Two days! Not a few hour hour flight! I think former Amtrak CEO Anderson’s airline thinking is still onboard! A palm of the hand sized salad isn’t gonna cut it for train travelers - especially for those spending big bucks for their trip.


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## me_little_me (Oct 9, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I was looking at the breakfast served to my students at a school in the south side of Chicago in Englewood. The students got a stick of cheese, a container of cereal and a breakfast bar and a container of milk. So kindergarten students are essentially eating the same types of food that were served to first class passengers for flex dining before the French toast and omelettes were added.


So, your point? The kids get cheated out of nutritious breakfasts so it's okay to cheat train riders? At least the cheese, possibly the cereal and definitely the milk are nutritious. The breakfast bar is probably full of sugar and often the cereal is also as bad.

The schools get money and food to provide nutritious breakfasts and should be offering that on most days. If they are not, it is up to the parents and teachers to make that known to the same people Amtrak customers complain to - upper level management and congress critters and to make a stink on forums, social media, emails, blogs, etc. Are they? Also remember that the reason the schools are tagged with this requirement is that the parents or guardians are either too poor or just want to dump their kids off on the school to avoid responsibility. In the old school days of "traditional dining", the parents provided breakfasts, boxed lunches and cooked dinners for their children. Hopefully, with better paying low end jobs and with the (temporary?) child care credit, they will go back to that "traditional dining" or be able to afford the time to attend PTA and school board meetings to ask where the government money for nutritious meals is going.


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## Cal (Oct 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> He's a really great guy! Now I'm looking forward to the 2022 gathering so I can meet you and others... really some fantastic folks on this forum. Cheers!


I intend to go to the 2022 gathering.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 9, 2021)

Cal said:


> I intend to go to the 2022 gathering.


Well then I certainly gotta go!


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 9, 2021)

Rambling Robert said:


> 20th Century; That was a great report (above) about the “temp flex” (haha) on the TE.
> 
> in December 2017 on the TE I was travelling in Coach but had traditional dining for the first time. Pasta, white sauce and plenty of veggies. $13. Filling. B+
> 
> The TE LA to Chi is Amtrak’s longest route. Two days! Not a few hour hour flight! I think former Amtrak CEO Anderson’s airline thinking is still onboard! A palm of the hand sized salad isn’t gonna cut it for train travelers - especially for those spending big bucks for their trip.


The belt tightening has effected staff morale who need to contend with unhappy passengers paying premium prices for diminished services... while at the same time confronted with a bigger work load due to staff shortages.


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## Rambling Robert (Oct 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The belt tightening has effected staff morale who need to contend with unhappy passengers paying premium prices for diminished services... while at the same time confronted with a bigger work load due to staff shortages.


It’s also the sign of the times that hiring is difficult. The June 2021westbound LSL was sold out for weeks yet only one person working the hybrid cafe for Coach and Flex dining - needless to say the line was well into the next Coach.

Running fully booked is good for Amtrak unless they can’t staff it properly.


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## me_little_me (Oct 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The belt tightening has effected staff morale who need to contend with unhappy passengers paying premium prices for diminished services... while at the same time confronted with a bigger work load due to staff shortages.


Right on! Do you see the executives riding the LD trains to show they are willing to "help out"? Even politicians have the brains to show up at a disaster, tour the place to "show the flag" and thank the workers then help out for a few hours. It may be just to look good but the Amtrak execs aren't interested in their staff, their customers or anyone. They sit happily in their offices and inadvertently admit their incompetence while others justify it.


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## fdaley (Oct 16, 2021)

I was able to sample the revised flex menu when we took the accessible bedroom on the Lake Shore from Albany to Boston last week. As often seems to happen when we take that trip, the train arrived into the Rensselaer station more than four hours late and finally headed east after 8 p.m., arriving in Boston just after 1 a.m. (due 8 p.m.). So I am not sure to what extent the meal service might have differed from normal because of the train's tardiness.

Bedroom A was empty for the duration of the trip, but Bedroom B and most of the roomettes were occupied. It appeared everyone was served in their rooms. The sleeper attendant took our orders about 8:45 and delivered our meals about 9 p.m. as we were approaching Pittsfield. There was no printed menu; the SCA just recited the options. The chicken/pasta entree was not available. I had the salmon, and my wife had the enchiladas, which she said were OK.

I agree with 20th Century Rider that the salmon entree seemed of better quality than some of the earlier flex offerings. It certainly seemed less salty than the previous shrimp-and-sausage meal. Although the entrees are still presented in their plastic microwave tubs, the appearance was less off-putting than that of the much-photographed beef and polenta.

The side salads were larger than they'd been in my last experience with flex dinners (Dec. 2019). But given that the salads consisted almost entirely of iceberg lettuce with a couple of cherry tomatoes, the added quantity didn't seem much of a reward. On the plus side, the dinner rolls were warm, and the toffee blondie seems really quite good for a packaged dessert. The half-bottle of cabernet -- the label was Line 39, not Barefoot -- likely improved my attitude, and overall we were happy to have the meal after several hours of sitting around at Rensselaer waiting for the train. 

Juggling the entrees, rolls, salads and drinks on a little Viewliner sleeper table is a bit of a feat, and a couple of times I feared we were headed for a disastrous spill. So I wouldn't want to repeat the flex-meal experience through several meal periods on a long-distance train, but it was a lot better than nothing -- and better than the prior offerings (a low bar) -- for a single meal on a trip of a few hours.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

fdaley said:


> I was able to sample the revised flex menu when we took the accessible bedroom on the Lake Shore from Albany to Boston last week. As often seems to happen when we take that trip, the train arrived into the Rensselaer station more than four hours late and finally headed east after 8 p.m., arriving in Boston just after 1 a.m. (due 8 p.m.). So I am not sure to what extent the meal service might have differed from normal because of the train's tardiness.
> 
> Bedroom A was empty for the duration of the trip, but Bedroom B and most of the roomettes were occupied. It appeared everyone was served in their rooms. The sleeper attendant took our orders about 8:45 and delivered our meals about 9 p.m. as we were approaching Pittsfield. There was no printed menu; the SCA just recited the options. The chicken/pasta entree was not available. I had the salmon, and my wife had the enchiladas, which she said were OK.
> 
> ...


Well written account... and I agree with everything you said. Flex meals remain generally poor and inadequate. I've been talking around during my present itinerary and all are pretty much disenchanted with the flex idea... not enough to eat with a tapas sized dish... the deserts are too repetitious and the salad is a joke. On the route between ALB and BOS they used to have a large delicious chef salad choice... or sandwiches... all prepackaged. Hoping the 'flex folly' will eventually be replaced with more traditional full meal items.

Am presently in ALB at the Fairfield... taking Empire Service to NYC where I'll board the Crescent... important bucket list goal... for NOL. Have been pleased with the kosher option choices as it is more of an actual full meal... better than flex but not as good as full service dining.


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## cassie225 (Oct 16, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Well written account... and I agree with everything you said. Flex meals remain generally poor and inadequate. I've been talking around during my present itinerary and all are pretty much disenchanted with the flex idea... not enough to eat with a tapas sized dish... the deserts are too repetitious and the salad is a joke. On the route between ALB and BOS they used to have a large delicious chef salad choice... or sandwiches... all prepackaged. Hoping the 'flex folly' will eventually be replaced with more traditional full meal items.
> 
> Am presently in ALB at the Fairfield... taking Empire Service to NYC where I'll board the Crescent... important bucket list goal... for NOL. Have been pleased with the kosher option choices as it is more of an actual full meal... better than flex but not as good as full service dining.


Well when you get to NOL eat, eat, eat to make up for having those meals on the Crescent lol


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

cassie225 said:


> Well when you get to NOL eat, eat, eat to make up for having those meals on the Crescent lol


I’m hungry already for some good creole cooking


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## happycamper (Oct 16, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Well written account... and I agree with everything you said. Flex meals remain generally poor and inadequate. I've been talking around during my present itinerary and all are pretty much disenchanted with the flex idea... not enough to eat with a tapas sized dish... the deserts are too repetitious and the salad is a joke. On the route between ALB and BOS they used to have a large delicious chef salad choice... or sandwiches... all prepackaged. Hoping the 'flex folly' will eventually be replaced with more traditional full meal items.
> 
> Am presently in ALB at the Fairfield... taking Empire Service to NYC where I'll board the Crescent... important bucket list goal... for NOL. Have been pleased with the kosher option choices as it is more of an actual full meal... better than flex but not as good as full service dining.



I was going to say the same as above - load up in NOL and grab something to bring back with you when you leave.   By our hotel was an outdoor pit bar/grill that made awesome smoked pulled pork sanwiches and jambalya (spelling).


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## MARC Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

On the New York section of the LSL, the SCA gave us a printed menu when he came by for the pre trip briefing, and there were plenty of menus in the dining car. I cant speak for the food, beause I had the kosher, but I got good service fron the dining car staff who were working their tails off. I made up for the microwave food with a 4 course special wine tasting finner at the Fogo de Chao in Chicago.


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## fdaley (Oct 16, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> On the route between ALB and BOS they used to have a large delicious chef salad choice... or sandwiches... all prepackaged. Hoping the 'flex folly' will eventually be replaced with more traditional full meal items.
> 
> Am presently in ALB at the Fairfield... taking Empire Service to NYC where I'll board the Crescent... important bucket list goal... for NOL. Have been pleased with the kosher option choices as it is more of an actual full meal... better than flex but not as good as full service dining.



I knew from other posts that you were on the move, but I didn't realize you were way out here, practically in my front yard. (Actually, I'm in my office about an hour outside of ALB.) Enjoy your ride down the Hudson. You are a more determined rider than I am if you're taking the Crescent in its current form all the way to NOL. At least, as Cassie225 says, there are lots of great places to eat once you're there.

On the Boston section of the Lake Shore, I can remember in the '80s and early '90s having table service in the lounge car with some of the same menu items that were available in the full diner west of Albany. The current meal service seems a huge step down from that, and the business class/cafe combo Amtrak now uses on the Boston leg has only a few tables, with about half of them occupied by the crew.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

happycamper said:


> I was going to say the same as above - load up in NOL and grab something to bring back with you when you leave.   By our hotel was an outdoor pit bar/grill that made awesome smoked pulled pork sanwiches and jambalya (spelling).


Appetite is up for some good Louisiana cooking and am hoping to make connection from Empire Service to crescent… will probably be ok but it seems that most trains I’ve been on are delayed due to freight… gets old fast and wastes lotsa valuable time that could be better spent…


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

fdaley said:


> I knew from other posts that you were on the move, but I didn't realize you were way out here, practically in my front yard. (Actually, I'm in my office about an hour outside of ALB.) Enjoy your ride down the Hudson. You are a more determined rider than I am if you're taking the Crescent in its current form all the way to NOL. At least, as Cassie225 says, there are lots of great places to eat once you're there.
> 
> On the Boston section of the Lake Shore, I can remember in the '80s and early '90s having table service in the lounge car with some of the same menu items that were available in the full diner west of Albany. The current meal service seems a huge step down from that, and the business class/cafe combo Amtrak now uses on the Boston leg has only a few tables, with about half of them occupied by the crew.


Hey there… spent childhood years in Schenectady… went to Carman School and lived in the community of Colebrooke… hope to come back here for a longer visit and maybe we can meet up!

A few weeks ago had the pleasure of connecting with Bob Dylan (Jim Hudson) when passing through Austin.

Anyway it’s great to be getting to know fellow AUers while waiting for these delayed trains!


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## happycamper (Oct 16, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Appetite is up for some good Louisiana cooking and am hoping to make connection from Empire Service to crescent… will probably be ok but it seems that most trains I’ve been on are delayed due to freight… gets old fast and wastes lotsa valuable time that could be better spent…


Unless the train coming in to pick you up in New Orleans is delayed giving you time to get more food before you leave....    Think positive...


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 16, 2021)

CONO leaves early afternoon leaving time for a good bkfst!


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## Exvalley (Oct 24, 2021)

I was able to try the beef last night. It is definitely an improvement over the old beef entrée. My two complaints are: (1) the presentation; and (2) the mashed potatoes are instant mashed potatoes.

I could tell that there was much less sodium, however.

Overall, I thought it was fine for one meal. Nothing that I would get excited about, but it did the job.


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## joelkfla (Oct 24, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I was able to try the beef last night. It is definitely an improvement over the old beef entrée. My two complaints are: (1) the presentation; and (2) the mashed potatoes are instant mashed potatoes.
> 
> I could tell that there was much less sodium, however.
> 
> Overall, I thought it was fine for one meal. Nothing that I would get excited about, but it did the job.


I hate stringy or fatty beef. Was the beef reasonably tender and free of chunks of fat?


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 24, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I hate stringy or fatty beef. Was the beef reasonably tender and free of chunks of fat?


Yes!


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 24, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I hate stringy or fatty beef. Was the beef reasonably tender and free of chunks of fat?


Had the beef on the TE and it tasted good however there were about three chunks of fat. I know with catering hundreds of these little flex meals they aren't all going to be perfect... but the mashed potatoes were definitely an improvement over the polenta and wine braised beef that was so poor.

Also got the kosher beef for some of the travels... it was 'meaty' but on one occasion it was watery and on the other it was dry. I'm sure that has something to do with storage and/or preparation.

The best dining on Amtrak is the full service dining in the West.


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## Exvalley (Oct 24, 2021)

My beef did have any chunks of fat.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 24, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I hate stringy or fatty beef. Was the beef reasonably tender and free of chunks of fat?


Actually, when I make pot roast, I like a little fat included, as it adds flavor. In fact, I made a pot roast last night (used a boneless chuck roast), and I made sure to snag a slice that had a little fat in it.


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## BoulderCO (Oct 24, 2021)

The little chunks of fat are what makes beef tender, tasty and pleasurable. It's why Prime beef is tastier than Choice. It's why a ribeye steak is tastier than a NY Strip or a filet.

Just my personal opinion, your results may vary :>)


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## Rambling Robert (Oct 24, 2021)

Has the Amtrak Food Service Advisory Board”” been re-activated? It ended in 2019. Is there a link if they are back?


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 24, 2021)

The chunks of fat that I experienced with the 'beef' flex meal were unpleasant, and what do you do in a public setting when you are eating and ingest fat...??? I swallowed it rather than ... um... ya know. Not a pleasant experience, when the food served is not all entirely edible... sorry, pieces of fat are edible. So I swallowed it. Flex meals are hmmm... containing perfectly digestible fat. So swallow it rather than disgust others in yur presence,

Reeeeeeeeeeee diculous!


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## joelkfla (Oct 24, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The chunks of fat that I experienced with the 'beef' flex meal were unpleasant, and what do you do in a public setting when you are eating and ingest fat...??? I swallowed it rather than ... um... ya know. Not a pleasant experience, when the food served is not all entirely edible... sorry, pieces of fat are edible. So I swallowed it. Flex meals are hmmm... containing perfectly digestible fat. So swallow it rather than disgust others in yur presence,
> 
> Reeeeeeeeeeee diculous!


I think I'll skip the beef entrée.


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## Rambling Robert (Oct 25, 2021)

The video below features Chef Madi in 2019 at the “top secret” launch of prolly flex meals. 

2019 “Top Secret” and discussion of the “Amtrak Culinnary Advisory Team”


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## basketmaker (Oct 25, 2021)

pennyk said:


> I do not think the on train attendants have access to the information. However, it can be found. Right after contemporary meals started, an Amtrak employee that I know (who I ran into in the Chicago Lounge) tried to find out ingredients for me. It took a little over an hour but he was able to tell me which contemporary meals contained garlic. I ended up having the children's turkey and cheese sandwich on the CL that evening (which was pretty awful since I do not eat white bread).
> The information is there but it is not easily accessible for employees let alone passengers.


Curious does this link not provide the information people need? Amtrak Food Facts
A quick glance looks like it covers all the required stuff including allergens.


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## basketmaker (Oct 25, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Hooray for Railroad French Toast! (I hope it's not microwaved.)


I agree and love it but look at all the allergens!


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 25, 2021)

Rambling Robert said:


> The video below features Chef Madi in 2019 at the “top secret” launch of prolly flex meals.
> 
> 2019 “Top Secret” and discussion of the “Amtrak Culinnary Advisory Team”



The video didn't show them eating the new to be [as of 2019] flex meals which have become so unpopular.


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Curious does this link not provide the information people need? Amtrak Food Facts
> A quick glance looks like it covers all the required stuff including allergens.


In addition to being frequently out of date (so no info on current selections) it doesn't actually list all of the ingredients, so if you're allergic to something uncommon (like garlic), then no. This site does not provide the people the information they need to make an educated decision on if they can eat the food or not.


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## pennyk (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Curious does this link not provide the information people need? Amtrak Food Facts
> A quick glance looks like it covers all the required stuff including allergens.


Not everyone who suffers from allergies is allergic to what are considered "allergens." Some of us need a complete list of ingredients to determine whether we are able to eat a certain meal and that link does not provide that information. I am sure @neroden would agree with me.


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## basketmaker (Oct 25, 2021)

Ryan said:


> In addition to being frequently out of date (so no info on current selections) it doesn't actually list all of the ingredients, so if you're allergic to something uncommon (like garlic), then no. This site does not provide the people the information they need to make an educated decision on if they can eat the food or not.


There are over 170+ known food allergens. That is gonna be a long list for LSAs to tote. It appears that the Amtrak's "Food Facts" menu ingredients by meal with the nine common known allergen groups covers the 2.5% of food allergies public as required.


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## pennyk (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> There are over 170+ known food allergens. That is gonna be a long list for LSAs to tote. It appears that the Amtrak's "Food Facts" menu ingredients by meal with the nine common known allergen groups covers the 2.5% of food allergies public as required.


The LSAs do not need to "tote" anything. Amtrak should list all ingredients on "Food Facts" or another Amtrak food related website. It is even easier with flex (pre-packaged meals) because there is no chef to add anything.


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> There are over 170+ known food allergens. That is gonna be a long list for LSAs to tote. It appears that the Amtrak's "Food Facts" menu ingredients by meal with the nine common known allergen groups covers the 2.5% of food allergies public as required.


This isn't rocket surgery. Publish a list of ingredients like every single product in the grocery store. As @neroden has pointed out repeatedly, this information is available to Amtrak because it legally has to be on the meals that they are purchasing. Literally doing nothing would be an improvement over actively making the information they have in their possession unavailable to their customers.

"They provide info for the popular allergens" is completely worthless to people with uncommon allergies and is completely unacceptable. Your defense of them is garbage.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 25, 2021)

happycamper said:


> I was going to say the same as above - load up in NOL and grab something to bring back with you when you leave.   By our hotel was an outdoor pit bar/grill that made awesome smoked pulled pork sanwiches and jambalya (spelling).


Yum! Great suggestion... will do!


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## Rambling Robert (Oct 25, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The video didn't show them eating the new to be [as of 2019] flex meals which have become so unpopular.


Sorry I meant to say that the inference was the top secret meal was likely flex/crud. - but there was no taste test allowed to be in Madi’s video.

In June 2919 Chef Madi received an internship from the Rail Passenger Association - just after this video - and she spent 50 days visiting Amtrak cities to sample America’s cuisine. 








From Maine to California: a chef’s journey by train


We chatted with U.S. chef Madi Butler about her journey to discover the diversity of U.S. cuisine.




blog.blacklane.com





My first flex meal was December 2019 on the LSL. It was really really bad. On the bright side I’ll be on a DownEaster foliage run very soon... they have a new vegetarian lasagna - the Merlot is good and will go well.


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## alpha3 (Oct 25, 2021)

Ryan said:


> This isn't rocket surgery. Publish a list of ingredients like every single product in the grocery store. As @neroden has pointed out repeatedly, this information is available to Amtrak because it legally has to be on the meals that they are purchasing. Literally doing nothing would be an improvement over actively making the information they have in their possession unavailable to their customers.
> "They provide info for the popular allergens" is completely worthless to people with uncommon allergies and is completely unacceptable. Your defense of them is garbage.



Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


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## me_little_me (Oct 25, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


Not a fair comparison. @alpha3 is not asking the crew to know it, but publishing online is not that difficult for anyone (except Amtrak who can't publish when their trains are scheduled to arrive) so customers can decide what they can and cannot eat.


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


I’m not allergic to anything, so it isn’t an issue for me. There are several other members that *are* allergic to uncommon things that do have to ask to see ingredients to know if they can safely eat something or not. Try putting yourself in someone else’s shoes for a minute and imagine living in a world where you can’t know what can safely being consumed because the people with the ingredients list are incapable of making that information available to the people that they are serving the food to. As has been repeatedly stated at this point, it doesn’t require anything of the on board personnel. Publish it on the already-existing website for customers to be able to educate themselves on what they can safely eat. It isn’t a huge ask.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 25, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


You only need to have a bad allergic reaction to one thing to be concerned about what you eat. Some people are allergic to garlic - which is used in many, many foods.


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## SarahZ (Oct 25, 2021)

Ryan said:


> This isn't rocket surgery.


Seriously. My company carries approximately 2000 ice cream products and 500 dairy products, and I can pull up a PDF of the ingredients and nutritional info for any item in about 30 seconds.

Even though we distribute most of the ice cream rather than making it on site, we STILL have access to those ingredient lists. We get them from the manufacturers and keep them updated. 

I find it hard to believe Amtrak can't make this information readily available to their CSRs. When they order the flex meals, they should scan the information (or request a PDF from the vendor). We store ours in Dropbox so everyone has easy access.


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## Sauve850 (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> I agree and love it but look at all the allergens!
> 
> View attachment 25121


It looks tasty for sure and I do think all ingredients should be listed on meals. 51 grams of added sugar is pretty outrageous.


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## JoshP (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> I agree and love it but look at all the allergens!
> 
> View attachment 25121



960MG of sodium? No wonder these arent healthy. I can make my own but for HALF of it, maybe 300MG.


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## Cal (Oct 25, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> I agree and love it but look at all the allergens!
> 
> View attachment 25121


This isn't the flex French toast, it's the traditional dining French toast. I'm sure there is a big difference between the two. 

That said, that's quite a bit more sodium than I expected.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 25, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


I like what you said... so much stuff is overdone when people are just looking for any excuse to criticize!!!


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 26, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> I like what you said... so much stuff is overdone when people are just looking for any excuse to criticize!!!


Excuse to criticize? How about reading up on food allergies. Would you want to deal with the following symptoms every time you eat out? 

Garlic is used way too much, as far as I’m concerned. Though allergies to it may be rare, it should be listed as one. Remember, peanut allergy wasn’t taken seriously in the past.

Note the last sentence.


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## Ryan (Oct 26, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> I like what you said... so much stuff is overdone when people are just looking for any excuse to criticize!!!


I can assure you that the people that I know with unusual food allergies aren't "looking for any excuse to criticize" and would love nothing more than to be able to eat things without worrying about if it will make them feel miserable, send them to the hospital, or kill them. Coincidentally, I have a friend that's been selected for jury duty and asked this evening if anyone in the county had served recently and what the rules are with respect to bringing your own food/drink. Her stated rationale? "I know that there is a cafeteria on site, but with my food allergies I'm not comfortable eating there and not knowing if it's safe or not".


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## jebr (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?



If someone has allergies, they'll ask either for an ingredients list or if said ingredients are part of any menu items. If something's prepared offsite, there's usually an ingredients list attached, and if it's prepared on-site the chef or cook should know what they're putting into the food.

Amtrak could easily post this information on their website - the entrees are known in advance and they come with ingredient lists to Amtrak. It'd take a few minutes for someone to peel them off, scan them in, and post them on the (already existing!) Amtrak Food Facts site.


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## Exvalley (Oct 26, 2021)

jebr said:


> Amtrak could easily post this information on their website


It would certainly be more efficient to do so. I'm all for something that saves unnecessary calls to the call center.


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## AmHope (Oct 26, 2021)

My experience with flex has taught me to carry a small travel spice kit to make it palatable. A bit of curry powder and Sriracha does wonders. Nothing will fix the obscene sodium content though, so you just need to swig some water while you eat. Thankfully my home trains are traditional again.


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## alpha3 (Oct 26, 2021)

Really, at some point if you have allergies this is on you to take care of yourself. I love most foods, I fortunately don't have food allergies, thank heavens. BUT - if I did - I certainly wouldn't depend on Amtrak, United, Delta, American, or anyone else to assure me the food being served was devoid of my allergy items. I'd bring my own food and not have to worry about such. (And probably enjoy it more!)


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Really, at some point if you have allergies this is on you to take care of yourself. I love most foods, I fortunately don't have food allergies, thank heavens. BUT - if I did - I certainly wouldn't depend on Amtrak, United, Delta, American, or anyone else to assure me the food being served was devoid of my allergy items. I'd bring my own food and not have to worry about such. (And probably enjoy it more!)


You keep doubling down on this rant but how are you being impacted by other people needing a full allergen list? Providing the ingredients would put the onus on the passenger to identify what they can eat or not. Nothing sounds less genuine than telling people how you would handle a problem you've never faced.


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## joelkfla (Oct 26, 2021)

AmHope said:


> My experience with flex has taught me to carry a small travel spice kit to make it palatable. A bit of curry powder and Sriracha does wonders. Nothing will fix the obscene sodium content though, so you just need to swig some water while you eat. Thankfully my home trains are traditional again.


I got a few 1 oz. bottles of Tabasco from the Walmart sample machine a while ago, which I've been saving for my next trip. Tabasco makes _anything _taste better.


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## alpha3 (Oct 26, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> You keep doubling down on this rant but how are you being impacted by other people needing a full allergen list? Providing the ingredients would put the onus on the passenger to identify what they can eat or not. Nothing sounds less genuine than telling people how you would handle a problem you've never faced.


I'm not ranting; _calm down_. Telling people how I would handle a problem is called an opinion; you're allowed to have those on forums, if I'm not mistaken. You can disagree with it, sure. I'm simply saying take care of your own self - If you're allergic to several things it's far better to bring your own than depend on a laundry list from a provider that may or may not be complete or accurate.


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## jis (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> I'm not ranting; _calm down_. Telling people how I would handle a problem is called an opinion; you're allowed to have those on forums, if I'm not mistaken. You can disagree with it, sure. I'm simply saying take care of your own self - If you're allergic to several things it's far better to bring your own than depend on a laundry list from a provider that may or may not be complete or accurate.


Good thing about opinions is that they can also be silently ignored


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## pennyk (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> I'm not ranting; _calm down_. Telling people how I would handle a problem is called an opinion; you're allowed to have those on forums, if I'm not mistaken. You can disagree with it, sure. I'm simply saying take care of your own self - If you're allergic to several things it's far better to bring your own than depend on a laundry list from a provider that may or may not be complete or accurate.


As someone who has food allergies, I strongly disagree with you. By asking servers in restaurants and reviewing ingredient lists on line, those with allergies are "taking care of themselves." When that information should be, and is not, available, it makes eating at restaurants more challenging. Are you suggesting that those with food allergies should not eat in restaurants or travel on trains unless they carry their own food (possibly for 10 days)?

I am able to receive accurate information from customer relations as to which flex meal entrees contain garlic. That information is available and I trust them. Fortunately for me, I will not die if I consume garlic, but will get sick and be quite uncomfortable for 6 hours. However, it is unfortunate that the complete ingredients list is not available to passengers without jumping through many hoops. I cannot count the number of hours I have spent over the last 11 years trying to find ingredients for traditional dining meals, contemporary meals and flex meals. It would be much easier for me to go online to "Food Facts" than to make multiple phone calls or send multiple emails to Customer Relations every time there is a menu change. (Since I will be traveling in December and the traditional dining menu has changed, I will need to determine which of the new entrees I will be able to eat. I will be away for 10 days traveling in expensive bedrooms. I should not be expected to carry food for 3 meals a day for 10 days),

The contemporary meals contained a card in the box containing the complete ingredient list. Some of the new flex meals (such as the omelet) have a complete ingredient list attached to the plastic covering (which may or may not be removed by the LSA).

I agree with my friend @jis (who can attest to the fact that I ask servers in restaurants whether certain meals contain garlic) and will ignore your opinion (but maybe not so silently).


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## Nick Farr (Oct 26, 2021)

keelhauled said:


> Possibly the first time I've ever seen "budget" used in connection with Panera...



The budget Panera is right next to the budget Starbucks.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Oct 26, 2021)

I don’t have any food allergies, but I would like to add that an ingredients list would be helpful for anyone eating on Amtrak.

It took me a while to figure out why I always felt slightly sick and queasy after a few Amtrak meals. (I’m talking of “old” traditional dining on the Silvers—much better quality than the flex meals—so it’s been a few years.)

I finally realized that, although I’m not a consistently healthy eater by any means, I was eating more sodium, fat, and sugar in 24 hours than I normally do.

Without an ingredients list, I had to guess and choose between nonhealthy items. For example, if I wanted the pumpkin cake after dinner, I would not have the croissant at breakfast.

Guessing sodium is trickier than guessing fat and sugar, so I know I consumed a huge amount of sodium on those trips.

An ingredients list is crucial for people with food allergies. Although such a list is not crucial for those of us without food allergies, it would help us make better choices and feel better physically on the trip.

By the way, I did have one flex meal—the Asian noodle bowl on the LSL before the pandemic—and felt sicker than I ever had with the traditional menu.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 26, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I got a few 1 oz. bottles of Tabasco from the Walmart sample machine a while ago, which I've been saving for my next trip. Tabasco makes _anything _taste better.


The dining cars, even where they serve flex meals, already has Tabasco. What I would want would be a small single-serves of HP Sauce.

By the way, what is the "Walmart Sample machine?"


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## AmHope (Oct 26, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> The dining cars, even where they serve flex meals, already has Tabasco. What I would want would be a small single-serves of HP Sauce.


Last time I had flex was on CS, and they wouldn't even give me black pepper. They said no condiments. I was very confused.


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## Exvalley (Oct 26, 2021)

AmHope said:


> Last time I had flex was on CS, and they wouldn't even give me black pepper. They said no condiments. I was very confused.


Now they give you those little salt and pepper packets. One of these days I will invest in a travel set.


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## jiml (Oct 26, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> Now they give you those little salt and pepper packets. One of these days I will invest in a travel set.


Save the little plastic ones from flying.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 26, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> Now they give you those little salt and pepper packets. One of these days I will invest in a travel set.


When I said there was Tabasco on the dining car during my recent trip, it wasn't that they gave single size servings to everyone; they had it, but you had to ask for it.


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## oregon pioneer (Oct 26, 2021)

I have cooked at a ski lodge where we catered to special diets. I had one repeat customer that was allergic to garlic, peppers, onions, and several other foods (all of which I love, and cook generously with at home). I cooked for people with many common allergies like nuts and wheat. I fully support the provision of ingredient lists and food facts.

I have no particular food allergies or needs, but I prefer to not eat calorie-laden food full of fat, sodium and added sugar. The data label for the Railroad French Toast was an eye-opener! My usual breakfast on a train is the Continental with plain oatmeal (I usually give the overly-sweet yogurt away). Can anyone tell me, is the oatmeal served on the LSL just instant packets? If so, after the comments about the French toast and omelets, I'll be bringing my own home-made granola (full of nuts, but low in sodium and added sugars!). At least, for the LSL portion of my trip, and the return 28 breakfast in Oregon...


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## Nick Farr (Oct 26, 2021)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It took me a while to figure out why I always felt slightly sick and queasy after a few Amtrak meals. (I’m talking of “old” traditional dining on the Silvers—much better quality than the flex meals—so it’s been a few years.)



The worst offender is salt. If you eat mostly fresh foods and don't add more than a pinch of salt, your queasiness is most likely due to that. 

Drink more water on board.


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## Sauve850 (Oct 26, 2021)

oregon pioneer said:


> I have cooked at a ski lodge where we catered to special diets. I had one repeat customer that was allergic to garlic, peppers, onions, and several other foods (all of which I love, and cook generously with at home). I cooked for people with many common allergies like nuts and wheat. I fully support the provision of ingredient lists and food facts.
> 
> I have no particular food allergies or needs, but I prefer to not eat calorie-laden food full of fat, sodium and added sugar. The data label for the Railroad French Toast was an eye-opener! My usual breakfast on a train is the Continental with plain oatmeal (I usually give the overly-sweet yogurt away). Can anyone tell me, is the oatmeal served on the LSL just instant packets? If so, after the comments about the French toast and omelets, I'll be bringing my own home-made granola (full of nuts, but low in sodium and added sugars!). At least, for the LSL portion of my trip, and the return 28 breakfast in Oregon...


Im trying to remember. The oatmeal I had on Cardinal and Star in September was honey type, I believe. LSL probably the same. I cook oatmeal at home and the Amtrak version I had wasnt the real deal. I really couldnt eat it all at either meal so you might want to bring some granola just in case.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 26, 2021)

Tabasco has not been a problem... but there may only be one or two of the little bottles in the cafe for the entire run


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## pennyk (Oct 26, 2021)

oregon pioneer said:


> Can anyone tell me, is the oatmeal served on the LSL just instant packets?


The oatmeal on the Silvers was the instant packets (the last time I traveled), which may contain more sugar than oats. lol


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## SarahZ (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Really, at some point if you have allergies this is on you to take care of yourself. I love most foods, I fortunately don't have food allergies, thank heavens. BUT - if I did - I certainly wouldn't depend on Amtrak, United, Delta, American, or anyone else to assure me the food being served was devoid of my allergy items.


I don't think you understand how customer service works.

If someone calls and tells me their child cannot have dairy, I am more than happy to send them a list of frozen confections that do not contain dairy.

If it bothers me that someone asked me for that information instead of simply telling their child they can't have ice cream and have to bring a banana to the beach, then that's a sign I'm in the wrong business.

Would it be easier if Amtrak published the information on their website? Yes.

Should it bother a CSR that someone is asking for information that isn't readily available online? No.

Should someone feel bad for asking a CSR a question that pertains to their upcoming trip, up to and including dining options? Also no.


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## Scott Orlando (Oct 26, 2021)

oregon pioneer said:


> I have cooked at a ski lodge where we catered to special diets. I had one repeat customer that was allergic to garlic, peppers, onions, and several other foods (all of which I love, and cook generously with at home). I cooked for people with many common allergies like nuts and wheat. I fully support the provision of ingredient lists and food facts
> 
> I have no particular food allergies or needs, but I prefer to not eat calorie-laden food full of fat, sodium and added sugar. The data label for the Railroad French Toast was an eye-opener! My usual breakfast on a train is the Continental with plain oatmeal (I usually give the overly-sweet yogurt away). Can anyone tell me, is the oatmeal served on the LSL just instant packets? If so, after the comments about the French toast and omelets, I'll be bringing my own home-made granola (full of nuts, but low in sodium and added sugars!). At least, for the LSL portion of my trip, and the return 28 breakfast in Oregon...



Full of allergens…. And 107g of carbs from mostly sugar!


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## jebr (Oct 26, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> I'm simply saying take care of your own self



Why not apply this to all food service on Amtrak, then? Just tell passengers to pack a cooler full of food, some pots and pans, and an electric stovetop and cook whatever food you need! Think of the cost savings!


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 26, 2021)

oregon pioneer said:


> I have cooked at a ski lodge where we catered to special diets. I had one repeat customer that was allergic to garlic, peppers, onions, and several other foods (all of which I love, and cook generously with at home). I cooked for people with many common allergies like nuts and wheat. I fully support the provision of ingredient lists and food facts.
> 
> I have no particular food allergies or needs, but I prefer to not eat calorie-laden food full of fat, sodium and added sugar. The data label for the Railroad French Toast was an eye-opener! My usual breakfast on a train is the Continental with plain oatmeal (I usually give the overly-sweet yogurt away). Can anyone tell me, is the oatmeal served on the LSL just instant packets? If so, after the comments about the French toast and omelets, I'll be bringing my own home-made granola (full of nuts, but low in sodium and added sugars!). At least, for the LSL portion of my trip, and the return 28 breakfast in Oregon...


Sadly the shortest of shortcuts include the most processed of the processed foods. But wouldn't it be nice if they actually had a kitchen that smelled like a kitchen with large cauldrons of cooking oatmeal and trays of cooking eggs, hash browns, and sausages and bacon??? And the smell of toasting break permeating throughout the dining car??? But that's unfortunately from an era distant passed. Still it's nice to reminisce and think about how good things once were... and hope that maybe again some day...


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## joelkfla (Oct 26, 2021)

AmHope said:


> Last time I had flex was on CS, and they wouldn't even give me black pepper. They said no condiments. I was very confused.


That's what I was afraid was happening. Especially if you get a surly crew. I'll put one in my pocket, just in case.


MARC Rider said:


> The dining cars, even where they serve flex meals, already has Tabasco. What I would want would be a small single-serves of HP Sauce.
> 
> By the way, what is the "Walmart Sample machine?"


After you sign up, the machine scans a QR code on your phone, plays a 15 second commercial, and spits out the current weeks sample. It's usually at the end of a grocery aisle facing away from the center of the store. Most of the stuff I don't use, but I've gotten samples of energy bars, deodorant, and laundry soap.

When Tabasco was the featured product, it gave out 2 bottles at a time, and I happened to be in the store twice that week.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 26, 2021)

Those days of everything cooked to order from scratch are long gone and exist now only in your own kitchen or in some fine dining places where a dinner tab for one can be $100 or more. Even in establishments where it appears that people are cooking food fresh, there's a lot of pre-made stuff. At a chain place that claims it cooks food fresh, I've seen them fill the soup cauldrons from big plastic bags of soup precooked at some commissary somewhere. (That doesn't necessarily mean that the soup is bad.) There's nothing wrong with food that's prepared in an outside kitchen where they can get economies of scale, but they could pay some attention to keeping the salt, sugar, and fat down. No reason why they can't serve unsweetened instant oatmeal and let the end user put in however much butter, sugar, and cinnamon that they want. (I do fine with about 2 teaspoons, or 32 calories/8 grams of sugars.) Same for the cooked stuff. Again, they should be able to make precooked French Toast without so much sugar. In fact, my French Toast has no sugar at all, except the syrup I pour on top. It's not that the stuff has to be sugar, salt, and fat free, but they just don't need so much in the recipe.

Basically, the days of being able to have a cook at a popularly-priced restaurant prepare food exactly to your specification are long gone, and I doubt they're ever coming back. But it's easy enough to provide ingredient lists, and some attention could be paid to making the food more healthy. Today, it seems they just load the food up with sugar, salt, and fat just because they can, and those ingredients are cheap.


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## tgstubbs1 (Oct 27, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Basically, the days of being able to have a cook at a popularly-priced restaurant prepare food exactly to your specification are long gone, and I doubt they're ever coming back.




I wonder what the total cost of preparing and serving a typical meal from a chain, like Applebees', would be on Amtrak? This should include the facilities and staff. 

Would people pay this price if it was separated from the lodging charge for a room?


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## neroden (Oct 27, 2021)

alpha3 said:


> Not trying to be unkind but that's rather ridiculous. How allergic to everything are you? When (or if) you go out to a restaurant to eat, do you ask to see ingredients for everything on the menu you're interested in?


Yes, I do. I have to. I am violently allergic to guar gum and it will wreck my digestive system for days by causing internal blistering. I have to get the chef to check the ingredients list of every new dish every time. At the vast majority of restaurants, they are happy to do it. For packaged goods (such as Amtrak uses exclusively), normal one-location restaurants just bring out the package label and I read it myself. Chain restaurants typically have a binder with all the ingredients lists for every dish on laminated pages.

You are ridiculous. Every other restaurant does this. Amtrak is being obstructionist for the sake of obstructionism.

The thing about my allergy is that guar gum isn't in *most* things but it shows up at random as a "secret additive". So I literally have to check the ingredients lists for everything every time -- but once I've done so, I can eat, like, 99% of it. But if they don't have the ingredients lists I can't eat anything.

How would you feel if Amtrak said "Hey, there might be deadly poison in some of the food. But there probably isn't. But we won't tell you which dishes have the poison in them. Even though we know." It's absurd.


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## Nick Farr (Oct 27, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I wonder what the total cost of preparing and serving a typical meal from a chain, like Applebees', would be on Amtrak?



The costs can't really be compared accurately because they're structurally different operations.

For starters, the walk-in cooler at Applebee's is bigger than the biggest Amtrak kitchen. Applebees can resupply more or less whenever they want and they usually have a consistent set of suppliers. They'll hire and fire a few dozen cooks in the time it takes Amtrak to onboard one cook. The skill to be a railroad cook even on a limited menu is much greater than you can expect from a line cook in a kitchen with up to 5 other cooks.

The preparation and ingredient storage of one Amtrak meal has to be more carefully thought out than on a standard Applebee's menu. It will be more limited and likely less consistent. You don't have nearly the same storage space in the dining cars as you do in a restaurant. The vendors in Chicago may not be able to supply exactly the same things as in Denver, Seattle, etc. They won't have the same tools to be able to prepare and plate as well.


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## tgstubbs1 (Oct 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> The costs can't really be compared accurately because they're structurally different operations.
> 
> For starters, the walk-in cooler at Applebee's is bigger than the biggest Amtrak kitchen. Applebees can resupply more or less whenever they want and they usually have a consistent set of suppliers. They'll hire and fire a few dozen cooks in the time it takes Amtrak to onboard one cook. The skill to be a railroad cook even on a limited menu is much greater than you can expect from a line cook in a kitchen with up to 5 other cooks.
> 
> The preparation and ingredient storage of one Amtrak meal has to be more carefully thought out than on a standard Applebee's menu. It will be more limited and likely less consistent. You don't have nearly the same storage space in the dining cars as you do in a restaurant. The vendors in Chicago may not be able to supply exactly the same things as in Denver, Seattle, etc. They won't have the same tools to be able to prepare and plate as well.


You are saying it is substantially more difficult, maybe even impossible to completely duplicate an Applebees plate? I believe it. 

What I am asking is what would that cost be? (to approximate a meal).

I'm not asking to make any comparison. Just what would the cost be? 

I would guess that a $20 meal could cost quite a bit more to prepare or present on a train. 

Applebees has a big menu with many items so Amtrak can't be expected to compete with that.


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## Barb Stout (Oct 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> The budget Panera is right next to the budget Starbucks.


And both are next to Chick Filet. The Panera I go to is indeed between a Starbucks and a Chick Filet.


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## oregon pioneer (Oct 27, 2021)

I understand the difficulties in preparing a meal that must keep through the end of a multi-day trip, and still taste as good (relatively speaking) as it would on the first day. Sugar and salt are preservatives, and fat helps maintain texture and moisture over time, as well as add flavor to what might otherwise be rather bland dishes. Sugar, salt and fat are less expensive and easier to obtain than fresh herbs and quality base ingredients. Like I sad, I have been a professional cook. I was lucky that the place I worked cared more about quality and catering to special dietary needs. I learned a lot.

I also understand that with limited space and handling capacity, they must stock only items that have wide enough appeal to serve the needs of the majority. I looked over the Flex Meal menu items, and for my needs, the Cajun shrimp dish looks great. I hope they have it when I travel. The kosher meals look good as well, though I can see why they don't provide enough food for many here (fewer calories). The flourless chocolate torte looks quite good for a treat (better than the carrot cake). I'll be fine, but I will bring my own breakfast for the eastern trains and the Oregon branch of the westbound EB (which has always been pretty bad...).


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## Nick Farr (Oct 27, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> What I am asking is what would that cost be? (to approximate a meal).



Total food cost depends on volume and throughput. If you eliminate choice and sacrifice a little bit of freshness, you can approach a roughly equivalent cost. The cost of the ingredients to Amtrak of its signature steak dinner with its usual fixings and a single choice of side is probably going to be roughly the same cost, if not slightly cheaper than the Applebees equivalent to Applebees. Amtrak, for all their LD trains probably has a slightly higher volume buy and lower deliver

Then labor is a total guesstimate. I assume that an Amtrak chef can cook this limited menu at a throughput roughly equivalent to a 2-5 person Applebees kitchen.


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## Cal (Oct 27, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Would people pay this price if it was separated from the lodging charge for a room?


II believe that separating the meals from sleeper tickets would be a great way to kill off dining cars for good. And if Amtrak were to separate the meals I doubt they'd reduce the cost of sleepers by all that much.


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## me_little_me (Oct 28, 2021)

Garlic is critical to Amtrak menus to prevent vampires from coming across the border and taking over our trains. Anderson made that decision because he felt that those illegal vampires would stop him from being the only vampire. The rest of the executives went along with it because they thought the vampires would take a bite out of their blood-sucking jobs.  < Those two mean it's a joke in case some members thought my comment was factual.


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## alanh (Oct 28, 2021)

Does anyone know who they're contracting with for the meals? Sometimes you can find the vendor's catalog.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 28, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Garlic is critical to Amtrak menus to prevent vampires from coming across the border and taking over our trains. Anderson made that decision because he felt that those illegal vampires would stop him from being the only vampire. The rest of the executives went along with it because they thought the vampires would take a bite out of their blood-sucking jobs.  < Those two mean it's a joke in case some members thought my comment was factual.


I rarely take your posts seriously. 
In fact, I’m still trying to decide if your recent flex-meal praise post was serious  (just kidding)


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## lordsigma (Oct 28, 2021)

alanh said:


> Does anyone know who they're contracting with for the meals? Sometimes you can find the vendor's catalog.


I think it's:
New Horizon Industries, inc.
14809 Guy R Brewer Blvd Jamaica, NY

at least that's what's on the packaging.

gategroup (deSter) is where the disposable plates that the meals come on come from I believe.


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## neroden (Nov 1, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> I think it's:
> New Horizon Industries, inc.
> 14809 Guy R Brewer Blvd Jamaica, NY
> 
> ...


Well, I found three other New Horizon food companies but they're the wrong ones (not located in NY). Oh well.


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## lordsigma (Nov 1, 2021)

Pretty sure that’s it. They purchase the containers from deSter and presumably make the meals at that building in NY and ship them out to the commissaries. Aramark as the commissary operator is in charge of ordering them from the vendor to the commissary and then getting them from commissary to the train.


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## basketmaker (Nov 2, 2021)

I was messing around a couple weeks ago on Google Street View looking for USA Train Horns and around some of my ol' stomping grounds in Hialeah and tripped across an Amtrak catering facility at 4627 E 10th Ln, Hialeah, FL 33013. Never knew it was there but has been 43 years since I've been back home. Not far from the Amtrak yard in Miami. 






And yes the reefer trucks are logoed with both Amtrak and Aramark.


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