# Chefs being removed off Capitol Limited



## OBS (Mar 29, 2018)

A friend of mine, who is a chef on the Capital, just posted on FB that he was told the Chef jobs are being eliminated on that route.

I would assume that means a conversion to Diner Lite is imminent.

Maybe Thirdrail has more info or can confirm?


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 29, 2018)

OBS said:


> A friend of mine, who is a chef on the Capital, just posted on FB that he was told the Chef jobs are being eliminated on that route.
> 
> I would assume that means a conversion to Diner Lite is imminent.
> 
> Maybe Thirdrail has more info or can confirm?


Do we see a trend developing here? Will the New Diners end up being Diner Lites and the Chefs getting jobs @ Dennys as another craft job bites the dust?


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine, who is a chef on the Capital, just posted on FB that he was told the Chef jobs are being eliminated on that route.
> ...


All the new diners are single-level, so I doubt they’ll be put in the Cap anytime soon. No chef would mean heat-and-eat (probably in a CCC with a menu similar to that of the CONO).


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## niemi24s (Mar 29, 2018)

Could this be driven by a shortage of chefs?


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## Northeastern292 (Mar 29, 2018)

niemi24s said:


> Could this be driven by a shortage of chefs?


I hope that's the reason and not a move to cut back on the amenities.
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## tommylicious (Mar 29, 2018)

Well, scratch that route off my list then. I refuse to ride any overnight train that doesn't have a chef.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 29, 2018)

Northeastern292 said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > Could this be driven by a shortage of chefs?
> ...


Since that is a staffing decision, not staffing with enough chefs is essentially a decision to cut back on amenities.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 29, 2018)

A shortage of Chefs is because Amtrak is eliminating them. There are plenty of individuals who are qualified for the position of Chef, Amtrak just wants to save money by eliminating the position. Just quietly move to heat and serve MW food. Maybe the food will get so bad , then Amtrak can eliminate food service totally,


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## PVD (Mar 29, 2018)

I don't like seeing people lose decent jobs. Completely separate though is the fact that you can serve food prepared in advance off board of more than satisfactory quality. As some of us have pointed out before, airlines do it on international Flights and sometimes on domestic long haul first class. But, you have to want to do it.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2018)

It's worth noting, for those not aware, that the Capitol Limited has for a couple years now operated the same as the City of New Orleans in that the SSL was not staffed, and the CCC car was used as both the cafe' car and dining car with only 1 LSA.

This train also offers a schedule where it serves Dinner and Breakfast only (with lunch availability going back and forth at the whim of amtrak and that days crew on the East bound).


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's worth noting, for those not aware, that the Capitol Limited has for a couple years now operated the same as the City of New Orleans in that the SSL was not staffed, and the CCC car was used as both the cafe' car and dining car with only 1 LSA.
> 
> This train also offers a schedule where it serves Dinner and Breakfast only (with lunch availability going back and forth at the whim of amtrak and that days crew on the East bound).


The Capitol does not use a CCC, and the SSL is staffed. Additionally, it is generally the case that the eastbound CL gets an abbreviated lunch so long as it’s not early.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 29, 2018)

A CONOL type menu on 29/30 is a significant downgrade IMHO. I specifically dislike the breakfast on 58/59. If they kept the pancakes and French toast as currently served it would be tolerable.

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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 29, 2018)

OBS said:


> A friend of mine, who is a chef on the Capital, just posted on FB that he was told the Chef jobs are being eliminated on that route.
> 
> I would assume that means a conversion to Diner Lite is imminent.
> 
> Maybe Thirdrail has more info or can confirm?


Something like that.



tommylicious said:


> Well, scratch that route off my list then. I refuse to ride any overnight train that doesn't have a chef.


Your options _may_ become limited in the not too distant future so if you have AGR rewards to burn, I'd start traveling soon.


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

Ideally in "first world railway" countries A 900 - 1000 mile journey limited stop intercity (non-HSR) run with about 8 or so stops would typically be a 5-6pm to 9-10am train, of course give or take an hour for the one hour time zone change. Unfortunately that is not to be in this country for the foreseeable future.

If we could manage that then it would be a simple Dinner + Breakfast train and it could be completely adequately served with international airline first class style food. But unfortunately the situation at present has way more uncertainties involved than that and there is very little support structure en-route to handle exceptional situations.



Thirdrail7 said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > Well, scratch that route off my list then. I refuse to ride any overnight train that doesn't have a chef.
> ...


Amtrak 2.0. Here we come! Toot - toot!


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > It's worth noting, for those not aware, that the Capitol Limited has for a couple years now operated the same as the City of New Orleans in that the SSL was not staffed, and the CCC car was used as both the cafe' car and dining car with only 1 LSA.
> ...


The Capitol has had a CCC car everytime I rode it in the past several years.

Last time I rode it the SSL was not staffed... Was that just a winter consist thing?


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 29, 2018)

When I was on the CL deadheading a few months back in the summer the SSL was unstaffed, and everything was done out of a CCC. And honestly it was more then enough to cope with our train. Breakfast especially had a very light load.


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

I thought the Cap had ditched the CCC a while ago. And Amtrak.com says that the Cross Country Cafe only operates on the TE and CONO. And Wikipedia (which I know is not a great source) says that it uses a standard diner.

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## spinnaker (Mar 29, 2018)

The problem with the CL is often it runs well below full capacity. I just came back from Cumberland to Pittsburgh last year and my buddy and I pretty much had a private coach. CL has a horrible schedule out of major cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh. You need to leave at ungodly hours and it takes nearly twice the time to get there then by car.

Something has to give. I just hope they hold off till after my trip back from Chicago this year.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I thought the Cap had ditched the CCC a while ago. And Amtrak.com says that the Cross Country Cafe only operates on the TE and CONO. And Wikipedia (which I know is not a great source) says that it uses a standard diner.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Sorry.. I'm talking about a physical CCC car. CCC cars haven't operated as CCC cars were designed since like the first few months they started. Ha.

The Capitol has been using a CCC car as a full diner for years. So the amtrak site lists it as a full diner.. but physically it's a CCC car.


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > I thought the Cap had ditched the CCC a while ago. And Amtrak.com says that the Cross Country Cafe only operates on the TE and CONO. And Wikipedia (which I know is not a great source) says that it uses a standard diner.
> ...


Right (and sorry if I’m coming off as rude) but the same applies to the Texas Eagle, yet they list that as operating with a CCC.
I 100% believe you that the CL was using a CCC the times you’ve taken it, I’m just trying to figure out if that’s always the case.


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## chrsjrcj (Mar 29, 2018)

Any eta for the removal? The Cap has been on my near term bucket list because its the only Chicago to East Coast train with a full service diner.

Seeing this trend is exactly why I booked a trip on the Sunset Limited next month.


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## GBNorman (Mar 29, 2018)

Lest we forget that the Simplified Dining Service (which translated to "fanese" as Diner-Lite) proposed during the Bush 45 administration in response to a Micascope charade, was to convert all Diners and Lounges to Food Service cars. The rebuilt cars would be able to offer all F&B items. They would be assigned to trains based on travel demand. During slack periods, one such car would suffice; peak periods would be assigned two.

Abolishing the Chef position on 29-30, Capitol Limited, is a continuation of same previously affecting 58-59, City of New Orleans, and leading towards implementing such system wide.

Oh well, at least I have my memories of extensive travel during the 60's on the "great trains". I'm sorry that the youngsters around here missed out.


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

Is the ‘chef removal’ confirmed from Amtrak?

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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I 100% believe you that the CL was using a CCC the times you’ve taken it, I’m just trying to figure out if that’s always the case.


It's been standard practice to use the CCC as a full diner on the Capitol for many many years. Like 10? I've ridden the Capitol many times in that span and it's always been the CCC. (I even rode in the famous aisle facing booths! the horror! actually... I kinda like them... don't tell anyone or I'll be banned).

As I said.. the last time I rode the Capitol... and per his post above the last time Seaboard rode, the CCC car was being used as both the diner and the cafe' - meaning the only staffed food service car was the CCC car. Coach Passengers would walk through the un-staffed SSL and enter the cafe side of the CCC car. This eliminated an LSA, since 1 LSA could handle both the Cafe, and the Dinning car sales.

When I saw this in person, the waiter and waitress were excellent and everything worked very well.


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## IndyLions (Mar 29, 2018)

If this is the direction they are going - why did they bother to order dining cars? What a waste. They should have ordered vending machine cars if that was their intention. Then when the vending machine cars were delayed 5 years we wouldn’t be disappointed

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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

IndyLions said:


> If this is the direction they are going - why did they bother to order dining cars? What a waste. They should have ordered vending machine cars if that was their intention. Then when the vending machine cars were delayed 5 years we wouldn’t be disappointed
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


The new Viewliner II diners are single-level and can't be used on the Capitol Limited. That said, there has been talk of a possible conversion to single-level cars on the CL, in which case V-IIs would probably be added and used as diner-lites.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 29, 2018)

The CL has certainly changed for the worse over the years. I remember the DC being full for dinner with three seatings or more. Both Sleeping Car sold out and Coaches well populated. During the 1990's and early 2000's, I traveled more weeks than not on the Cap CHI/WAS. Sad seeing service degrading as a regular passenger, but I also feel for those who made their living on the CL for decades.


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## Larry H. (Mar 29, 2018)

As the saying goes, "Its no way to run a railroad".. Is the new CEO who likes to cut money behind this? Running off passengers is not an improvement in my book. For quite a while the Diners was one of the few reasons to take the train, now they have ruined that as well.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2018)

Honestly both times I've been on the Cap as a passenger and the one time I've been on the LSL as a passenger the diner has not really done brisk business at breakfast. And generally I go at eight am or so.

Now dinner wise the cap seams to have decent patronage but remember it's only half the car. So it doesn't take a lot to make it appear to be full. While the last time I was on the Lake Shore I had a table to myself and there were plenty of empty tables at dinner.

The diner with the best performance I've experienced was the Coast Starlight. Even the abbreviated dinner into LAX was well patronized. All meals in both the PPC and diner were full.


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## Maverickstation (Mar 30, 2018)

Regardless of the type of car used, both the TE and CL have (up to this point) the regular National Dining Car Menu, and a chef on board.

If the CL looses it's chef, the menu could wind up like the CONO, which would be the worst case or the Lake Shore which would be the best case

in this scenario, the Cardinal being the middle of this pack.

The timing for this would make sense since the Spring menu changes are due.

Ken


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Is the ‘chef removal’ confirmed from Amtrak?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


How would they "confirm" this. I highly doubt Amtrak would put out a press release that they are removing chefs from trains. Maybe a third party would come out with the details. Amtrak did indirectly announce the dining car was removed from the SS when they advertised of lower priced roomettes.



Larry H. said:


> As the saying goes, "Its no way to run a railroad".. Is the new CEO who likes to cut money behind this? Running off passengers is not an improvement in my book. For quite a while the Diners was one of the few reasons to take the train, now they have ruined that as well.


Are they running off passengers? Has ridership on the Silver Star taken a nosedive?

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3458/16.pdf

The train lost maybe 5-6% in FY2016 but rose back up in FY2017. Less than 10% of SS (35,624 of 373,372) passengers on that train was a sleeper car passenger to begin with (and that is on a train when the sleepers are the cheapest since they are without meals included). On the CL, it is closer to 20% (44,984 of 231,214).

It may surprise you but not everyone thinks Amtrak LD trains are restaurants. If they money saved can be used to start some more routes I think this is a worthy sacrifice. There's your jobs back.


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## dlagrua (Mar 30, 2018)

If chefs and a full dining service are eliminated system wide; we will bail and do our vacations as road trips. The decidon to put an airline executive in charge of Amtrak is a bad one. Airlines had the heat and serve food because they are short trips. On an overnight you need a good meal.


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2018)

The fallacy of that statement is that there are some very long airplane flights and they are quite capable of serving good food. As I have said before, they can do it if they want to. At this point, they don't.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 30, 2018)

Do the airlines care if the coach passengers eat on all day flights from the East coast to Hawaii. No. Compare this to a Pittsburgh/LGA flight in the 60's when they served a full meal in less than an hour. So from an airline mentality, why would Amtrak provide meal service, except "first class" re-heat and serve.


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## spinnaker (Mar 30, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> The CL has certainly changed for the worse over the years.



Hey they finally added RORO bike service at all of the stops. So there have been some improvements. Don't know why it took so long for that one. If the CL left Pittsburgh at a decent hour I bet they would get more riders from those riding the GAP.. Arrival in Pittsburgh from the east is not too awful bad but not sure if I would want to ride through the city at that time of night if I didn't live here.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Do the airlines care if the coach passengers eat on all day flights from the East coast to Hawaii. No. Compare this to a Pittsburgh/LGA flight in the 60's when they served a full meal in less than an hour. So from an airline mentality, why would Amtrak provide meal service, except "first class" re-heat and serve.


The airlines that fly to Hawaii do make food available to Coach Class passengers either complementary or for purchase, Amtrak makes food available for Coach passengers only to purchase. So what is the difference? I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm getting the sense that when Mr. Anderson asks why something is done in a certain way, the stock answer, "that's the way we do it here." does not fly. In this case, he probably looked at Amtrak long distance food deleivery using a chef and servers, compared it to DL first class meals prepared and served by a flight attendant, and gasped.


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2018)

Besides basic nourishment, having a full service dining car on transcontinental trains also in a way provides "entertainment value" for some. Something to break up the tedium of a long journey for many, is the walk to the diner, reading the menu and ordering, and having several courses served to you. Then a stop in the lounge or return to ones space. And repeated several times, with different items ordered each time.

So if diner's are removed, and self-serve food counters remain, that will take away a lot of the pleasure of train travel for many....


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 30, 2018)

A report a few years ago on the cost of food service for Domestic First Class showed the average Dinner cost the airlines over $100 per passenger. The airline catering companies still charge those same rates or even higher. A flight with 16 first class seats pays out over $1600 for meals up front. In Coach meals for purchase, i have not seen a report of the cost verses revenue. I do know that when a full meal was served the airlines paid approximately $35 per passenger. So cutting meals saved each flight $3500 or more depending on the number of passengers. The number of flight attendants is based on safety standards based on the number of passengers so eliminating food service did not save anything in wages. So if Anderson is looking at Amtrak with airline glasses, he sees the Dining Car as unnecessary. Just have the SCA bring the heat and serve meal to each room at meal time. Let the Coach passengers purchase Cafe items from the Lounge, therefore the DC can be eliminated totally.


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2018)

Never seen a cost number that high, even with alcohol factored in. Some airlines exceed the mandated minimums on cabin crew on some long haul routes with a higher percentage of first and bc passengers, decreased service might save on labor costs, but would be a huge competitive disadvantage in securing the high yield passengers. One passenger at FC is way more than the FA costs.....


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## Anderson (Mar 30, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> A report a few years ago on the cost of food service for Domestic First Class showed the average Dinner cost the airlines over $100 per passenger. The airline catering companies still charge those same rates or even higher. A flight with 16 first class seats pays out over $1600 for meals up front. In Coach meals for purchase, i have not seen a report of the cost verses revenue. I do know that when a full meal was served the airlines paid approximately $35 per passenger. So cutting meals saved each flight $3500 or more depending on the number of passengers. The number of flight attendants is based on safety standards based on the number of passengers so eliminating food service did not save anything in wages. So if Anderson is looking at Amtrak with airline glasses, he sees the Dining Car as unnecessary. Just have the SCA bring the heat and serve meal to each room at meal time. Let the Coach passengers purchase Cafe items from the Lounge, therefore the DC can be eliminated totally.


This reeks of some mixture of bad contract negotiation or poor cost control on the part of the airlines.

It also ignores the fact that on Amtrak something like 40-50% of the diner meals are sold to coach passengers (with some variability based on capacity, etc.; sleeper pax _have_ to be served, so if there's a constrained mealtime such as dinner out of LA on the Chief then the sleeper share is going to go up by default)...but then again, Amtrak management seems to be continally caught off guard by this given the fact that any time this comes up in a report, there is somehow a tone of surprise at it. Practically speaking, a respectable share of your long-haul coach pax are going to buy one or two meals in the diner if space is available; two or three days on cafe food is simply not a workable proposition for more than a few folks (even if they can't afford a sleeping car).


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Back in the days when meals were not included in Sleeper tickets, I used to get at least one, and occasionally two meals in the Diner. I don't recall ever having had three Diner meals in a day.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2018)

Anderson said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > Practically speaking, a respectable share of your long-haul coach pax are going to buy one or two meals in the diner if space is available; two or three days on cafe food is simply not a workable proposition for more than a few folks (even if they can't afford a sleeping car).


I've done it before. Of course I'm not most people. Then again the alternative is $25 Amtrak steaks. I believe the last time I went to Texas I did buy an Amtrak diner breakfast on the TE.

What's the progress of the "at your seat" meals? I remember seeing them on the SWC a few years back. Maybe they are the middle ground between all cafe food and a chef although I'm sure we'll still have CCC's for the most part.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2018)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I've done it before. Of course I'm not most people. Then again the alternative is $25 Amtrak steaks. I believe the last time I went to Texas I did buy an Amtrak diner breakfast on the TE.
> 
> .


Well not really... You can have dinner in the diner for a pretty reasonable price. $12.50 for a burger and chips isn't bad and a cup of ice water is free. I would much rather have that than a cafe car "meal."

*ive never seen passengers denied a burger at dinner, but with amtrak anything is possible.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

For at your seat meals, the method of delivery becomes an issue. Either you have the passengers themselves go to the food service car and pick up their more elaborate food and bring them to their seats or you have it delivered to their seats.

The former arguably is similar to what happens now in the Cafe Car, only that lines may become even longer sicne the prep time for more elaborate stuff would be longer.

The latter has additional labor cost, unless the Coach attendants can be enough to provide some kind of a trolley service in the Coach. The latter is quite feasible as has been demonstrated in many other railroads, and in Amtrak Acelas. but typically it does require more than one coach attendant on an average to provide anything resembling satisfactory service. So there is additional cost of labor involved.

Airlines typically have something like 6 for 200-250 passengers on light food service flights. More if there is more elaborate food service or premium heavy flights. That would translate to something like 6 per 3 standard Coaches or 4 LD Coaches (single level)


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 30, 2018)

The Amtrak Coach at your seat dinner meals were served on a couple of the western trains I took in 2017. The Coach Attendant boxed the meal downstairs for each passenger, then carried bags of several boxes back to the coaches. I don't know how payment was handled or how many meals were delivered.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2018)

The at-seat coach service is supposed to be served by the coach attendant. It's literally a boxed meal and a bottle of water. It seems very reasonable that currently staffed coach attendants can handle that.

Part of the coach attendants job already is to serve passengers who need special assistance from both the lounge and/ or the diner.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 30, 2018)

[SIZE=15.5pt]"BUT HOW MUCH DOES A MEAL ACTUALLY COST THE AIRLINE?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]The costs for economy meals average around $25 and business class meals more like $50. First class meals are much harder to classify, but our estimate of $110 is a safe bet for first class on US domestic airlines with [/SIZE][SIZE=15.3333px]foreign[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] airlines being more. Note that these costs are without the costs of the staff serving the food and drinks, or any overhead. (Business [email protected])"[/SIZE]

You can see why the current Amtrak CEO didn't want to serve full tray meals to Coach passengers and why full leaf lettuce was cut out on First Class meals to save several million dollars.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

I bet a lot of that $110 is the free booze, considering how many people seem to drink like a fish each time I have been in First Class.





I find it quite hard to believe that the food served on Domestic legs in F in the US costs $110 for just the food, including the full leaf lettuce, which BTW they still do serve. The excerpt is strangely worded since no foregin airline is really allowed to serve a US domestic leg (Cabotage is illegal in the US), and notwithstanding the popular belief in the US, all foreign airlines are not really better than the US airlines international service either.

It would be quite revealing to see a breakdown of the alleged cost.


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## Trogdor (Mar 30, 2018)

Is there a link to that citation?

And does the citation itself have citations for where they got the data? I find those numbers extremely hard to believe, especially given that current buy-on-board food is very similar to (if not better than) what was provided in the past for free, and you can get a decent bite to eat in economy for around $15 (US domestic), maybe $20 if you add alcohol, and airlines wouldn't be intentionally pricing that stuff at a loss.

If the cost of a meal (excluding alcohol) in domestic first class exceeded $10 per person, I'd be shocked.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Yeah I don't really believe any of the numbers quoted in that article without further backup material


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## dlagrua (Mar 30, 2018)

jis said:


> Yeah I don;t really believe any of the numbers quoted in that article without further backup material


X2


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 30, 2018)

The cost to airlines for a domestic First Class meal is $100? I don't believe that! I have yet to have any airline meal in domestic First Class (on Delta, incidentally) or international Business Class that was worth $100. And, that includes dinner and breakfast on a long distance Singapore Airlines flight where their meals are supposed to be the best or at least among the best of the international carriers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2018)

I can't comfirm or deny any of the costs, but it seems reasonable.

The food has to be ordered and stocked by a commisary that has to deliver the food to the airport? Then the food has to be loaded onto the plane by specialty employees... Then excess food is unloaded and returned to a commisary.

That's alot of steps for each flight (or set of flights..) Way more than a restaurant getting an order from Sysco once or twice a week and storing it in a big walk in till its needed.


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## Trogdor (Mar 30, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I can't comfirm or deny any of the costs, but it seems reasonable.
> 
> The food has to be ordered and stocked by a commisary that has to deliver the food to the airport? Then the food has to be loaded onto the plane by specialty employees... Then excess food is unloaded and returned to a commisary.
> 
> That's alot of steps for each flight (or set of flights..) Way more than a restaurant getting an order from Sysco once or twice a week and storing it in a big walk in till its needed.



Often the commissaries are at or very close to the airport. Airlines order in bulk (prepare the same meal 1,000 times), and there's not necessarily anything special about these "specialty employees" (a quick Google search tells me that at LSG Sky Chefs, an "assembler" makes $10.40/hr, and supervisors make under $50,000 per year). While I don't doubt the cost of providing a meal on an airline is higher than that equivalent meal at a ground-based restaurant, it's also true that you don't get equivalent meals to ground-based restaurants (they're really only a couple steps above a TV dinner).

I still say, if the all-in cost per meal was north of $10, I'd be very surprised.


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## cpotisch (Mar 30, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I can't comfirm or deny any of the costs, but it seems reasonable.
> 
> The food has to be ordered and stocked by a commisary that has to deliver the food to the airport? Then the food has to be loaded onto the plane by specialty employees... Then excess food is unloaded and returned to a commisary.
> 
> That's alot of steps for each flight (or set of flights..) Way more than a restaurant getting an order from Sysco once or twice a week and storing it in a big walk in till its needed.


Yes, but at the scale the airlines and commissaries are operating, those costs and overhead probably work out to be relatively negligible. And FC meals are probably ordered from the same places as the rest of the food, which further divides up the costs. On a 400 passenger flight, delivery costs would have to be pretty astronomical to average anything like $100 per person.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2018)

jis said:


> Notwithstanding the popular belief in the US, all foreign airlines are not really better than the US airlines international service either.


Americans are keenly aware that our airline service standards have devolved into sharp tongues and indifferent lip service (well, most of us anyway) but that doesn't mean we believe every dumpy foreign outfit is always better. Virtually any airline south of the US border is or anywhere in Africa is generally assumed to be substantially worse than the domestic carriers. It's true that many of us believe the _best_ foreign airlines are indeed better than most/all US airlines, but that view isn't only held by US citizens; a majority of airline rating respondents, travel journalists, and globetrotting bloggers agree with us.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Notwithstanding the popular belief in the US, all foreign airlines are not really better than the US airlines international service either.
> ...


Absolutely. There are about a dozen outstanding airlines, most of which are undoubtedly better than the US3. Beyond that things get pretty spotty.


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## spinnaker (Mar 30, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I can't comfirm or deny any of the costs, but it seems reasonable.
> 
> The food has to be ordered and stocked by a commisary that has to deliver the food to the airport? Then the food has to be loaded onto the plane by specialty employees... Then excess food is unloaded and returned to a commisary.
> 
> That's alot of steps for each flight (or set of flights..) Way more than a restaurant getting an order from Sysco once or twice a week and storing it in a big walk in till its needed.



If they base the cost of that the way they charge to transport my bicycle, I can see how they can come up with that number.




My bicycle and I combined probably weigh less than some Americans alone. Yet I can pay $150 plus each way to transport the bike. Of course part of that is for "special employees" to load the bike.



Like the time a "special employee" put my bike on the luggage belt and it came tumbling down on to the carousel. .


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## Palmland (Mar 30, 2018)

Is there any confirmation that the Capitol is losing it’s chefs? Unless I missed it, seems it’s just hearsay from an Amtrak employee.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 30, 2018)

Re the Special Meals for Coach pasengers:

When I rode the Sunset Ltd. this Winter the offering was a Chicken Dinner with a bottle of Water that cost $12, and the Coach Attendant took orders,the LSA collected the $$$ in advance since they are the only OBS allowed to handle purchases.

The attendant delivered them to the Coach Seats ( Sleeping Car pax weren't allowed to order them).Several Coach riders told me it was delicious and worth the $12!

I think this is an excellent idea for LD Trains for ALL passengers that could pre order and paid for with their tickets.


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## cpotisch (Mar 30, 2018)

Palmland said:


> Is there any confirmation that the Capitol is losing it’s chefs? Unless I missed it, seems it’s just hearsay from an Amtrak employee.


You didn’t miss anything. All we know what he heard about that one employee. Knowing Amtrak, it wouldn’t at all surprise me for them to ditch the chef on the CL, given recent trends. That said, until we get further info, I wouldn’t say this is by any means definite.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 30, 2018)

This rumor along with threads about the end of the American call centers and the end of private car movements and charters point to an ominous trend IMHO.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2018)

The private cars and charters isn't a rumor. It's a fact. It's such a fact I'm now unemployed.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 31, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> The private cars and charters isn't a rumor. It's a fact. It's such a fact I'm now unemployed.


Note I said, "this rumor along with the threads about... ". The only thing I stated was a rumor was the chefs being removed off of the Capitol limited. I don't know enough about the other situations. But there is a pattern.

I regret your situation. Your posts and trip reports are informative.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## como (Mar 31, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Re the Special Meals for Coach pasengers:
> 
> When I rode the Sunset Ltd. this Winter the offering was a Chicken Dinner with a bottle of Water that cost $12, and the Coach Attendant took orders,the LSA collected the $$$ in advance since they are the only OBS allowed to handle purchases.
> 
> ...


I had one of the chicken dinners on the Southwest Chief in September 2017. It was a very good meal for $12, certainly better than a meal in economy class on an international flight. I think that about half of the passengers in a fairly full coach ordered the dinner.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

With recent changes, I think there is cause to be concerned that this won't be just the capitol losing its chef. :-/


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## spinnaker (Mar 31, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> With recent changes, I think there is cause to be concerned that this won't be just the capitol losing its chef. :-/



My concern is the whole system will some day be shut down. While I am really glad it is there, I am not so sure the taxpayer should be subsidizing it. Not with all of the other vital needs the are struggling out there.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

That's a long rabbit hole to go down.... Which transportation systems should the tax payer pay for?

The country would survive without long distance rail, but it would also survive without interstates (make them all toll roads that charge as much as they need to) smaller regional airports that currently lose money... Etc. Etc.

No easy answers.


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## spinnaker (Mar 31, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> That's a long rabbit hole to go down.... Which transportation systems should the tax payer pay for?
> 
> The country would survive without long distance rail, but it would also survive without interstates (make them all toll roads that charge as much as they need to) smaller regional airports that currently lose money... Etc. Etc.
> 
> No easy answers.



Oh I don't disagree. I have often thought our interstate be all toll roads. But where do you stop? What about the local streets?

And I guess where I live the people train really isn't vital for transportation. In fact it is darn right inconvenient. You really have to want to use it. Out west it is pretty much the only option in a lot of cases and I can see were people there would suffer if it went away.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

Where do you live?


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## spinnaker (Mar 31, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Where do you live?



Pittsburgh. The CL has a horrible schedule for departures west. OK for arrivals from the east. Barely livable for departures east. The Pennsylvanian has an OK schedule but no baggage car and it does not carry bikes. That is the one that has me upset. I really want to go to Trenton to do a trip on a bicycle path out there but can't get my bike out there without pre-shipping it.

Yeah I know it is worse elsewhere but still a pain.

Not to mention the time it takes. I took the CL back from Cumberland last year. I could have driven round trip in the time it takes, Not complaining there. I don't care but it is a reason more people don't use the train. Also there was a ton of space available in the car for more racks but only one rack for 6 bikes in that car. And this is along one of the most popular bike trails in the country. But then again (at least on the day I was there) there were empty racks. And our car was almost empty in coach.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 31, 2018)

Some cities, commuter rail is critical and can not be replaced by driving cars. Chicago, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, etc. Many other cities are trying to move that direction. Light and heavy rail run near capacity in many of these cities. The geography of Pittsburgh makes using rail difficult at best, but they did have a great trolley system in the South Hills and to east of the city, decades ago, the tunnel it used is still used today.


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## spinnaker (Mar 31, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Some cities, commuter rail is critical and can not be replaced by driving cars. Chicago, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, etc. Many other cities are trying to move that direction. Light and heavy rail run near capacity in many of these cities. The geography of Pittsburgh makes using rail difficult at best, but they did have a great trolley system in the South Hills and to east of the city, decades ago, the tunnel it used is still used today.



We replaced the trolleys with light rail in the South Hills . They pretty much used the same lines. But if you are talking way back then yes the trolley system was extensive. We also had local passenger trains. It actually was not that long ago the one from the east went away. Not enough ridership. Why someone would rather sit in their car in traffic is beyond me.

We also had a rather extensive number of inclines. Long gone before I was born. One was so large it carried horses and wagons. One actaully had a curve in the track going up the hill.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 31, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Re the Special Meals for Coach pasengers:
> 
> When I rode the Sunset Ltd. this Winter the offering was a Chicken Dinner with a bottle of Water that cost $12, and the Coach Attendant took orders,the LSA collected the $$$ in advance since they are the only OBS allowed to handle purchases.
> 
> ...


Or...just picture this. When you use the website to reserve you ticket, you pick from a menu of available items in advance. Then, they use the dining cars to serve the meals that would be higher quality than what is served in the diner lite and would be closer to what is served on the Acela.

It has the potential to reduce costs, staff, waste and criticism from Congress.

Just something to think about.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 31, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Palmland said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any confirmation that the Capitol is losing it’s chefs? Unless I missed it, seems it’s just hearsay from an Amtrak employee.
> ...



Nothing is definite, until it occurs...and even then, they may change it back. The reality of the situation is they have done this to the Capitol before. The Star is gone, the LSL's dining car doesn't seem like it is returning despite the fact there are plenty of new cars available and they are still looking to deflect criticism and cut costs.

It is not unreasonable to consider this action, particularly if the end to end travel isn't the bulk of your passengers.


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## TiBike (Mar 31, 2018)

It'll be interesting – maybe in a painful way, maybe not – to see what happens with bike service on long distance trains. It has the same problem with inconsistent service that the diners (and so much else) have. One way to eliminate inconsistency is to eliminate the service. I hope that doesn't happen, but I also hope the current idiocy is fixed somehow. West coast corridor trains don't have a problem handling roll on bikes, and they have less staff (which might be an advantage in this case), shorter dwell times and far, far better on time performance.

They also have better and more consistent food (and beer!).



spinnaker said:


> Pittsburgh. The CL has a horrible schedule for departures west. OK for arrivals from the east. Barely livable for departures east. The Pennsylvanian has an OK schedule but no baggage car and it does not carry bikes. That is the one that has me upset. I really want to go to Trenton to do a trip on a bicycle path out there but can't get my bike out there without pre-shipping it.
> 
> Yeah I know it is worse elsewhere but still a pain.
> 
> Not to mention the time it takes. I took the CL back from Cumberland last year. I could have driven round trip in the time it takes, Not complaining there. I don't care but it is a reason more people don't use the train. Also there was a ton of space available in the car for more racks but only one rack for 6 bikes in that car. And this is along one of the most popular bike trails in the country. But then again (at least on the day I was there) there were empty racks. And our car was almost empty in coach.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 1, 2018)

spinnaker said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > Some cities, commuter rail is critical and can not be replaced by driving cars. Chicago, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, etc. Many other cities are trying to move that direction. Light and heavy rail run near capacity in many of these cities. The geography of Pittsburgh makes using rail difficult at best, but they did have a great trolley system in the South Hills and to east of the city, decades ago, the tunnel it used is still used today.
> ...


I remember taking the trolley Shannon Drake out to Brookside where we lived. I also took the trolley from downtown to Forest Hills. The inclines were a great way to see the city either up to or down from Mt. Washington. My father reminded in the 1940's when they lived on Iberia Street, lots of people who lived in the Mt. Washington area, would take the inclines to and from work in the city. Sorry, I do not remember this, but I do remember that was when rail was king. I miss those days taking the B&O and the PRR.


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 2, 2018)

I, too, live in Pittsburgh but have a different take. Departures west? The Capitol Limited is scheduled in at 11:45 pm, which to me isn't that bad (think Cleveland in the middle of the night) and is actually early a fair amount of the time. The Eastbound is scheduled in at 5:20 a.m., perhaps a bit early, but not horrendous. I would prefer it was a bit later, and it often is. It would be ideal if the trip was quicker but if you are looking for speed there's no doubt driving is better. To each their own. It is a nice ride between Pittsburgh and Washington during daylight hours. The Pennsylvanian has good arrival and departure times in and out of Pittsburgh and, again, is typically on time if not early. The trip over the mountains will never be quicker without a massive investment which will never happen. But the Pennsylvanian is still reasonably well patronized.



spinnaker said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Where do you live?
> ...


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## tricia (Apr 2, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> spinnaker said:
> 
> 
> > Lonestar648 said:
> ...


One summer, in the 1970s, I commuted from the South Hills via trolley through the tunnel toward downtown, and transferred there to an incline up to the top of Mt. Washington.




Best commute I ever had.


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## tricia (Apr 2, 2018)

PaTrainFan said:


> I, too, live in Pittsburgh but have a different take. Departures west? The Capitol Limited is scheduled in at 11:45 pm, which to me isn't that bad (think Cleveland in the middle of the night) and is actually early a fair amount of the time. The Eastbound is scheduled in at 5:20 a.m., perhaps a bit early, but not horrendous. I would prefer it was a bit later, and it often is. It would be ideal if the trip was quicker but if you are looking for speed there's no doubt driving is better. To each their own. It is a nice ride between Pittsburgh and Washington during daylight hours. The Pennsylvanian has good arrival and departure times in and out of Pittsburgh and, again, is typically on time if not early. The trip over the mountains will never be quicker without a massive investment which will never happen. But the Pennsylvanian is still reasonably well patronized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The arrival/departure times are a real hard sell if you need to have someone drop you off or pick you up at the station. Few people actually live downtown, so for most passengers it involves a drive of at least 20 minutes or so.


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## spinnaker (Apr 2, 2018)

tricia said:


> The arrival/departure times are a real hard sell if you need to have someone drop you off or pick you up at the station. Few people actually live downtown, so for most passengers it involves a drive of at least 20 minutes or so.



Yep. A big problem for me since I really don't have anyone to pick me up or drop me off. Especially that early in the morning. And some of those departures are awfully early for a bike ride assuming I want to take my bike with me.

The good news is parking is only something like $7.50 downtown on weekends and right across the street from the station.


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 2, 2018)

I get that. 5:05 a.m. is no fun for anyone. Nevertheless, it's better than many other cities, especially in Ohio.



spinnaker said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > The arrival/departure times are a real hard sell if you need to have someone drop you off or pick you up at the station. Few people actually live downtown, so for most passengers it involves a drive of at least 20 minutes or so.
> ...


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 2, 2018)

tricia said:


> PaTrainFan said:
> 
> 
> > I, too, live in Pittsburgh but have a different take. Departures west? The Capitol Limited is scheduled in at 11:45 pm, which to me isn't that bad (think Cleveland in the middle of the night) and is actually early a fair amount of the time. The Eastbound is scheduled in at 5:20 a.m., perhaps a bit early, but not horrendous. I would prefer it was a bit later, and it often is. It would be ideal if the trip was quicker but if you are looking for speed there's no doubt driving is better. To each their own. It is a nice ride between Pittsburgh and Washington during daylight hours. The Pennsylvanian has good arrival and departure times in and out of Pittsburgh and, again, is typically on time if not early. The trip over the mountains will never be quicker without a massive investment which will never happen. But the Pennsylvanian is still reasonably well patronized.
> ...


The time of arrival/departure for The Cardinal in Cincinnati is an issue for me. I have a friend who did so on one trip to/from Chicago and was clearly informed by her: Never Again!


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 2, 2018)

The CL used to arrive Pittsburgh about an hour later in the morning and an hour earlier in the evening when I had several projects in the area quite a while back. Best was pre-Amtrak when I would just get on a Sleeper in the evening, go to bed, then the train picked up the sleeper when it arrived Pittsburgh.


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## Anderson (Apr 3, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Re the Special Meals for Coach pasengers:
> ...


This isn't out of sorts from what I experienced on the Spirit of Queensland last year: Basically, it was an Acela First-grade meal (probably a little better, but that's down to taste) served at-seat in Business (which was, btw, an TATL/TPAC Business-grade product...albeit with a bed you couldn't take down yourself). There was also a very nicely stocked bar car, and I think they had things set up to restock at both Rockhampton and Townsville (including loading those Acela-style meals). IIRC, from what Jis says this is also how Indian Railways tends to handle things.

The biggest issue I see with such a plan is simply allowing for OTP on the longer-distance trains. If you had reliability on LD trains within, say, an hour 90-95% of the time (which seems like a painfully modest goal) and a good chunk of the remaining delays were likely to be weather-related and thus at least somewhat predictable, you could probably handle this alright. The problem is that if the Zephyr were to load breakfast at Salt Lake City and the EB train gets stabbed for four hours, you now have a bit of a problem...but at least some of that problem is arguably specific to the Western trains.

Now, if you load everything at the origin? That would work as long as you can keep it fresh.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 3, 2018)

Loading meals works on both the east bound and west bound Portland Section of the Empire Builder. The end product in both cases is OK... Not great. But OK. In my experience the boxed meals on the Empire Builder were better than the non-chef meala on the City of New Orleans.

I don't think all trains need the exact same thing. Just because a train has a sleeper, doesn't mean it needs a full service diner.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 3, 2018)

You could add a unit in the Baggage Car to load trays of meals for the Sleeper Passengers that the SCA would serve to each room. The Coach Attendant could have a limited number of small meals/snacks for purchase during meal time. A cart could be used to go down the isle. Now, meal service would be similar to what Delta serves and the DC and SSL have been eliminated as well as the crews. Is this what we should be expecting in a year or two?


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 3, 2018)

There is no baggage car space needed for this type of service on the Empire Builder.


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## keelhauled (Apr 3, 2018)

Anderson said:


> The biggest issue I see with such a plan is simply allowing for OTP on the longer-distance trains. If you had reliability on LD trains within, say, an hour 90-95% of the time (which seems like a painfully modest goal) and a good chunk of the remaining delays were likely to be weather-related and thus at least somewhat predictable, you could probably handle this alright. The problem is that if the Zephyr were to load breakfast at Salt Lake City and the EB train gets stabbed for four hours, you now have a bit of a problem...but at least some of that problem is arguably specific to the Western trains.
> 
> Now, if you load everything at the origin? That would work as long as you can keep it fresh.


The logistics become much easier if you eliminate all the LD trains and chop the routes up into corridors...

/me ducks.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 3, 2018)

Then you would need states subsidizing operations which means goodbye Amtrak in the South.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2018)

I am sure they will figure out how to spend $1.3 billion and unless they plan to buy themselves a lot of vacations and then spend the rest of their lives in the slammer, I am certain that most LD trains will continue to run as long as Congress keeps funding them. This is just a shot across the bow to Congress saying clearly that if the national Account is not funded in an ongoing basis, the national Network will be gone. It is entirely upto them.


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## spinnaker (Apr 3, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Loading meals works on both the east bound and west bound Portland Section of the Empire Builder. The end product in both cases is OK... Not great. But OK. In my experience the boxed meals on the Empire Builder were better than the non-chef meala on the City of New Orleans.
> 
> I don't think all trains need the exact same thing. Just because a train has a sleeper, doesn't mean it needs a full service diner.



I would not want to eat boxed meals for 3 days, 3 meals a day. I would likely never ride the LD trains if it came to that. Doubt a lot of others would want to do that either. I never rode trains before because of the horrible scheduling. It was just too inconvenient for me because of my limited time off. no I have more time I can tolerate the schedule for the comfort of train travel. Eating a boxed meal for 3 days is not my idea of comfort.


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## keelhauled (Apr 3, 2018)

chrsjrcj said:


> Then you would need states subsidizing operations which means goodbye Amtrak in the South.


And most of the West and a not insignificant portion of the East. Anyway I don't pretend to know anything more than hearsay that is probably several layers removed from the source, but there seems to be enough smoke to say that more changes are yet to come.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2018)

Loading meals does not mean boxed meals. The LSL is entirely served using pre-plated meals. And some of it is actually surprisingly good.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## spinnaker (Apr 3, 2018)

So meals would be prepared at stops before meals then loaded and kept warm? I would think that would be satisfactory.


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## jebr (Apr 3, 2018)

spinnaker said:


> I would not want to eat boxed meals for 3 days, 3 meals a day.


Except there's no single train that runs for 9 meal periods (or single train car.) I'd be hard pressed to even find a direct train ride that covers 9 meal periods (I suppose Portland, ME to Palm Springs, CA via the Downeaster, LSL, and Texas Eagle would meet that, but lunch on day 2 isn't provided by Amtrak and breakfast on day 1 would be on the Downeaster's cafe car.)

For me, I've, at most, had five consecutive meals on board, and seven total in a trip. The biggest thing for me is to get a variety of options for meals, and a varied "pre-packaged and heated like first class airline food" menu would actually serve me better than the current nationalized menu.

Edited to add: It looks like going from a terminus of a west coast train on the west coast to central/southern Florida would get well above 9 meals (Emeryville - Miami looks to have 13 meal periods.) There's two transfers in there, however, to get meals, and frankly with it being a five-day trip I doubt there's a lot of people that would do that trip even with the most luxurious on-board food options.


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## LauraPX (Apr 3, 2018)

New York to L.A. via LSL & the Texas Eagle would cover 9 meals, though you could get whatever meal you wanted for lunch in CHI between trains.

I was just playing around on the Amtrak web site and was surprised to see that the roomette fare CHI-LAX, departing 5/13, is $670 on the Southwest Chief and $1858 on the Texas Eagle -- almost 3x as much! I've traveled CHI-LAX on the TE when the roomette fare was less that on the Southwest Chief, though the distance is longer. The vagaries of demand pricing...

As for box meals, I am not a fan -- never mind multiple box meals in a row. One of the pleasures of train travel is sharing a meal with others in the dining car. I prefer to take the Empire Builder to/from Seattle rather than Portland because you get a box meal in the Portland section. I would choose flying over the train for many more trips if Amtrak went to box meals. Of course I can speak only for myself; I don't know what percentage of their passengers feel that strongly about hot meals served in the diner.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 3, 2018)

The most meal periods I've been on board for was On the LSL and CZ. With eight. Surprisingly on the Coast Starlight I had five in a PDX-LAX trip.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 3, 2018)

You're missing out on the Portland Section of the Empire Builder! The Columbia River Gorge is totally worth it. (But im guessing you've ridden that portion in a private?





If properly done (which it was both times I rode that sections) I actually really like the box meal service on the EB. I like the diner too. One or the other does not cancel out rail travel for me.

What I don't like is the meal options on the City (well below the standards of the box meals on the EB) and the no meal options on the Silver Star. It's really hard to call anything in the Silver Star cafe a full meal.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 3, 2018)

I have enjoyed the box meals on the Portland section of the Empire Builder. I have enjoyed the scenery as well on that section of the route.

I have more enjoyed, from a dining point of view, the meals on the Empire Builder on the route to/from Seattle. What about the scenery one might fairly ask. The views along Puget Sound and into the Cascades as the train turns East leaving from Seattle is what causes me to be a repeated Empire Builder traveler.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 3, 2018)

I would rather ride the Gorge actually even with the meal difference. I look at it as variety for meals after multiple days of the same.


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## cpotisch (Apr 4, 2018)

LauraPX said:


> New York to L.A. via LSL & the Texas Eagle would cover 9 meals, though you could get whatever meal you wanted for lunch in CHI between trains.
> 
> I was just playing around on the Amtrak web site and was surprised to see that the roomette fare CHI-LAX, departing 5/13, is $670 on the Southwest Chief and $1858 on the Texas Eagle -- almost 3x as much! I've traveled CHI-LAX on the TE when the roomette fare was less that on the Southwest Chief, though the distance is longer. The vagaries of demand pricing...
> 
> As for box meals, I am not a fan -- never mind multiple box meals in a row. One of the pleasures of train travel is sharing a meal with others in the dining car. I prefer to take the Empire Builder to/from Seattle rather than Portland because you get a box meal in the Portland section. I would choose flying over the train for many more trips if Amtrak went to box meals. Of course I can speak only for myself; I don't know what percentage of their passengers feel that strongly about hot meals served in the diner.


Taking the LSL and the Eagle/Sunset from NYP to LAX is 10 meals (I took it). When it comes to roomette price buckets, the Eagle and SWC are about the same.


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## BillyJo (Apr 5, 2018)

I just went from Chicago to WAS on the CL earlier in the week. This was my first trip on the CL since 2008, and the experience was definately not as good as I remembered. As others point out, I'm assuming they were using the CCC design, since both the CL and the CONO, which I was on to Chicago, were devided between the dining concept and the cafe concept. The dinner menu offered more unique selections, but I thought the steak was not nearly as good as what I had in prior years. They also only had one waiter handing all of the dining customers, which could not have been easy. Service was gruff and rough, but I'll chalk this up to one person having to handle so many customers.

The breakfast selection was much better on the CL than what we saw on the CONO. On both trains, I was surprised that the lower level of the SSL was off-limits. Finally, I was a little surprised that they didn't offer lunch, or at least make some sort of annoucement that lunch was not available. The attendant in the cafe said they don't serve lunch, since the train would get to DC prior to that. We didn't get in until after 2, and I usually eat before then. Of course, the train was so empty at that point, it wouldn't make much sense to serve a full meal.

I'd hate to see the chef removed from the CL, but would be interested to see what they did without a chef...


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 5, 2018)

The Capitol Limited lunch service is the gold standard of Amtrak inconsistencies. I am pretty sure that everytime I have ridden that route it was a different setup.

Sine the lower level of the SSL is not staffed on those trains, it makes sense that it is closed. Conductors probably wouldn't want to deal with what may go on down there....


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 5, 2018)

When the CL arrived about an hour later in WAS, they would do a quick lunch, but that was a while back.


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## pennyk (Apr 9, 2018)

chrsjrcj said:


> Any eta for the removal? The Cap has been on my near term bucket list because its the only Chicago to East Coast train with a full service diner.
> 
> Seeing this trend is exactly why I booked a trip on the Sunset Limited next month.


Unless I missed it, I do not believe there has been an answer to this question: When is the anticipated date of the removal of the chef on the Capitol Limited?


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 9, 2018)

You are correct, no date has been posted, just expectation of the pending action.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 9, 2018)

I have a feeling it won't just be the Capitol losing the chefs...


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## cpotisch (Apr 9, 2018)

This still doesn't seem to be confirmed. Forget about the date, we don't know for sure that this is happening at all.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 9, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> This still doesn't seem to be confirmed. Forget about the date, we don't know for sure that this is happening at all.



You don't know if anything is happening....until it actually happens.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 9, 2018)

Rumor mills generate a lot of concern but rarely any facts. Though this rumor has foundation, there is no confirmation yet. Probably will not know until the CL departs less the Chef..


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 10, 2018)

I asked one of the LSA's on the Cap a few days ago. And he said they've threatened taking the chef position away multiple times that he won't believe it till he sees it.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 10, 2018)

Wonder if the Union is fighting Amtrak on the reduction thus the on again/off again scenario.


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## OBS (Apr 11, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Wonder if the Union is fighting Amtrak on the reduction thus the on again/off again scenario.


Nice try, but the OBS union is spineless and has very little actual leverage against the company other than filing a protest and trying to point out negative consequences of their actual ideas. Occasionally, however, they do prevail, such as in talking the company out of the idea of switching attendants on/off thru trains during their layover in NYP....


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 11, 2018)

I remember the union I was part of, different industry, different decade, remained quiet on some matters, but others fought hard, I guess picking their battles. In this case, if the OBS union lets Amtrak do what they want all the time, Management, if they never get any push back, just makes decisions good or bad, the employees have to put up with the changes.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 11, 2018)

For what it is worth the spring menu changes are overdue. It could be a sign that potential changes are being ironed out.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## dlagrua (Apr 11, 2018)

We will be on the CL next month and will report back. The CCC car has been used for quite some time and they did offer the full diner menu on our last trip in May 2017.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 11, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> The CCC car has been used for quite some time


It's been like 10 years now hasn't it?


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## Reno89502 (Apr 11, 2018)

I was on the Cap Ltd last year. I enjoyed being able to get a burger with all the fixins and chips at any time, and not that horrible packaged burger.. Not to stray off of the subject, but if they want to do something like the airlines, make a business class section that has airline style, first class seats. The kind that turn into lie-flat beds!


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## zephyr17 (Apr 11, 2018)

They do have lie flat seats. In the roomettes.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 11, 2018)

zephyr17 said:


> They do have lie flat seats. In the roomettes.


which would be equivalent to first class on airlines.

business class on airlines has lie flat seats in a more usual seating configuration that should work on a train. If you could do it with 2-1 seating you would have an interesting product for long distance.


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## Skyline (Apr 12, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> You could add a unit in the Baggage Car to load trays of meals for the Sleeper Passengers that the SCA would serve to each room. The Coach Attendant could have a limited number of small meals/snacks for purchase during meal time. A cart could be used to go down the isle. Now, meal service would be similar to what Delta serves and the DC and SSL have been eliminated as well as the crews. Is this what we should be expecting in a year or two?


This is not worse than an idea I heard on a right-wing radio talk show while driving late one night (I was feeling masochistic!).

A caller suggested Amtrak just discontinue all meal service on board, and have a street vendor or food truck meet a train at stops in major cities. Pax would view the menu online and order via an app using their cell phones, picking up their meals at the station stop and taking them back to the train to eat. He also suggested soft drinks and coffee/tea be dispensed from vending machines on board. Alcoholic drinks? Discontinue!

The host seemed to love this idea, so much so he failed to question how much later this would make the schedule, and what would happen if the food truck didn't show up. There was also no mention of sleeping car passengers getting these boxed meals included in their fare.


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## Reno89502 (Apr 12, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > They do have lie flat seats. In the roomettes.
> ...


I used to take train 66 and 67, 2 or 3 times a month between New Haven and Richmond, VA for 2 years. Unfortunately, they took the sleepers off of those trains with the demise of the Twilight Shoreliner in 2003. I tried taking Business Class a couple of times, but just could not get comfortable in those seats. Was more comfortable in a coach seat (Until we pulled into Baltimore, when the train would fill up with people heading to DC for work.) I think a Business Class, lie flat seat, would be a best seller on your long distance trains, and your overnight service on the Northeast Corridor. Your fare could be something along the lines of when they offered the Slumbercoach, where you would just get the room and no meals.


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## cpotisch (Apr 12, 2018)

I still wonder why Amtrak doesn't list the CL as a train operating with a CCC. The CONO and TE are proudly displayed not the site as using those cars, but not the Cap.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I still wonder why Amtrak doesn't list the CL as a train operating with a CCC. The CONO and TE are proudly displayed not the site as using those cars, but not the Cap.


The City and Texas were the 2 trains that actually got the CCC car as it was intended to be operated. This was about 10 years ago. They ran with a totally different menu, and it was a concept that lasted only a few months I think before they went back to business as usual with the full diner.

The CCC ad is probably leftover from that. The Capitol never got the full CCC treatment, just the physical cars operating as full diners.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 12, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > They do have lie flat seats. In the roomettes.
> ...



One of the LD trains in Australia replaced their sleeping cars with lie flat seats. I can see this being a good alternative to business class on LD trains (and 66/67).

https://youtu.be/wsX_GsYSdos


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 12, 2018)

That's an awesome find!!! That's exactly what I was envisioning when I was typing but I didn't know it actually existed anywhere.


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## tricia (Apr 12, 2018)

chrsjrcj said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...


Wouldn't this take up as much space as Amtrak's roomettes do, but with less privacy?


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## Reno89502 (Apr 12, 2018)

tricia said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


YES!!! This is what Amtrak needs for Business Class!!!! Especially on 66/67. If they did this, they may possibly get a few more Business People using the overnight service.


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## tricia (Apr 12, 2018)

Reno89502 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > chrsjrcj said:
> ...


Why would someone want this instead of a roomette?


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## Blackwolf (Apr 12, 2018)

tricia said:


> Reno89502 said:
> 
> 
> > tricia said:
> ...


Because roomettes are anachronistic to most travelers? The traveling public _knows _seats like these, and equate them as being a high-end product; they really don't know what a roomette is.

From a business standpoint, Amtrak can't afford the extremely heavy conversion process to put roomettes in an AmFleet/Horizon/Superliner Coach. They can, however, put lie-flat seats into those cars for a fraction of the cost and completely standardize the hard product nation-wide.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 12, 2018)

I don't see the appeal. Less space than a roomette with absolutely no privacy. Maybe as kind of super business class daytime run.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 12, 2018)

It's not instead of a roomette. We are talking about 2 different products. Why does anyone want a Roomette when they can have a bedroom?

As Blackwolf mentioned... these seats could be installed in existing cars without any major changes. (Roomettes require walls, doors, emergency exits on every window, beds installed to ceilings and/or walls... ).


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 12, 2018)

Having flown in Business Class on a Singapore Airlines 777, Delta 767, Delta A330, and an Air New Zealand 777, the comfort of these "lie-flat seats" reputation promises more than they deliver in my experience. Lying flat, my movement constricted by a seat belt, I was uncomfortable and got little sleep. On my most recent experience, the Delta A330, I put my seat into my often-used at home Lazy Boy fashion, I actually went to sleep and got some good rest even with my seat belt fastened.

Providing such airline type Business Class seating on Amtrak to replace Sleeping Car Roomettes is an idea that ought to find its way to the dust bin.

Incidentally, Air New Zealand provided my absolute best Business Class flight experience from their LAX Lounge to luggage retrieval in Auckland. Delta has been #2 (from which Amtrak's new CEO has come). Singapore was a disappointment, particularly for what it cost. A Flight Attendant whose English was only slightly better than my whatever she spoke. Helpful with a mal-functioning entertainment system: "I'll be back to help." We had a crew change and the system was re-set before it then worked. A "Book the Cook" dinner that disappointed (overcooked steak). A light Supper after leaving Hong Kong and the breakfast before landing in San Francisco only met the culinary expectations that I expected.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 12, 2018)

I think in the case of the Australia trainset, they wanted to reduce costs so they reduced the size of the trainset by removing the originally planned sleeping cars and dining cars. I dont know what the thought process was behind introducing these lie flat seats over a traditional room.

Really the only difference between this and a berth on the Canadian, is that at least the berth has a privacy curtain.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 12, 2018)

I am quite certain that a berth on the Canadian is much more comfortable.

I need to go up there and ride in one of the sections just to say I've done it.

While I still prefer the Amtrak Roomette over all in design, the via rail Roomette was by far the most comfortable bed Ive slept in on a train (and that includes the iowa pacific Pullman sleepers!)


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## Reno89502 (Apr 12, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> Having flown in Business Class on a Singapore Airlines 777, Delta 767, Delta A330, and an Air New Zealand 777, the comfort of these "lie-flat seats" reputation promises more than they deliver in my experience. Lying flat, my movement constricted by a seat belt, I was uncomfortable and got little sleep. On my most recent experience, the Delta A330, I put my seat into my often-used at home Lazy Boy fashion, I actually went to sleep and got some good rest even with my seat belt fastened.
> 
> Providing such airline type Business Class seating on Amtrak to replace Sleeping Car Roomettes is an idea that ought to find its way to the dust bin.
> 
> Incidentally, Air New Zealand provided my absolute best Business Class flight experience from their LAX Lounge to luggage retrieval in Auckland. Delta has been #2 (from which Amtrak's new CEO has come). Singapore was a disappointment, particularly for what it cost. A Flight Attendant whose English was only slightly better than my whatever she spoke. Helpful with a mal-functioning entertainment system: "I'll be back to help." We had a crew change and the system was re-set before it then worked. A "Book the Cook" dinner that disappointed (overcooked steak). A light Supper after leaving Hong Kong and the breakfast before landing in San Francisco only met the culinary expectations that I expected.


I was NOT talking about replacing the Bedrooms or Roomette's, this would be a separate product. I prefer a roomette as well, but in the situation of train 66/67, and in Business Class trains on the LD routes, this would provide a option for those who don't want to pay the higher price for the roomette or bedroom, but still would have the comfort of being able to lie flat and sleep. This would also be a lot easier for Amtrak to install in the existing cars that they have. I just would like to see another option on Train 66/67, since they don't have the spare sleepers (yet), where I could have a comfortable nights sleep on a 9 hour ride from New Haven to Richmond.


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## IndyLions (Apr 12, 2018)

Other than 66/67, are there any other trains currently w/o any sleepers at all where an option like this is desperately needed? Does anyone see any way that sleepers would get added back to 66/67 once the next VLII order is completed?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2018)

I can almost guarantee you that Amtrak wouldn't add a new type of car for just one (relatively) short round-trip per day (i.e. 66/67).

As for the other trains, as has been noted, the seats appear to take up as much (or almost as much) room as a roomette. Amtrak is also unlikely to be buying new seats and retrofitting them onto 30-year-old (or 40-year old) cars.


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## Reno89502 (Apr 13, 2018)

IndyLions said:


> Other than 66/67, are there any other trains currently w/o any sleepers at all where an option like this is desperately needed? Does anyone see any way that sleepers would get added back to 66/67 once the next VLII order is completed?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I could see this option as a good ad-on to a few of the other NE Corridor trains, such as any of the ones that depart NYP, WAS or BOS between 3am and 6am. Also the Auto Train, and maybe even the Palmetto, due to its 15 hour run.


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## Reno89502 (Apr 13, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> I can almost guarantee you that Amtrak wouldn't add a new type of car for just one (relatively) short round-trip per day (i.e. 66/67).
> 
> As for the other trains, as has been noted, the seats appear to take up as much (or almost as much) room as a roomette. Amtrak is also unlikely to be buying new seats and retrofitting them onto 30-year-old (or 40-year old) cars.


All of the Amfleet 1's are getting a refresh with new seats, restrooms and remodeled Cafe cars as we speak. Not as fancy as lie-flat beads, but it's a start.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 13, 2018)

Reading fliers comment on the lie flat seating, it appears there are some better than others. The more recliner type flat seat seamed to be preferred for resting and for some sleep with an angle and rise for the legs. Length wise it seems that 7 feet in length is needed and a couple feet plus in width. So how many could Amtrak fit into a BC 2+1 configuration? 10 rows of 3? 30 seats? Would a dedicated BC Attendant be required to service this car before, during, after? To me marketing could really hit the Business travelers going from BOS to WAS with skip the airport hassle and security, get some rest after finish your repoorts, freshen up with a hot cup of coffee as arrive WAS, be at your 8:00 AM fresh ready to do business.


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2018)

Reno89502 said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > I can almost guarantee you that Amtrak wouldn't add a new type of car for just one (relatively) short round-trip per day (i.e. 66/67).
> ...


No. They are getting new seat cushions, carpets, and LED lights. The seat structure is exactly the same. That’s how they’re able to do it for so cheap per car and complete a car during an overnight stop.

I haven’t heard anything about “remodeled cafes” so perhaps you can give me some details.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2018)

Shows the state of our minds. Must be very few places in the world that gets this excited about new seat cushions, and starts seeing them as all brand new seats! Is it nicer to have new seat cushions and carpets? Of course! But the level of excitement and anticipation about it is somewhat amazing.


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## PVD (Apr 13, 2018)

Refresh is precisely the term Amtrak is using, and restrooms (particularly floor replacement) and cafe cars are included, but the emphasis was on seat cushions and covers, and carpet first.

The refresh will take approximately nine months to complete and customers can expect a progression of upgrades during that time, with the approximate delivery schedule:

Fall 2017: Installation of Business Class carpets and cushions, Coach Class carpets and cushions, LED lighting, upgraded restrooms.
Winter 2017: Continued installation of carpets, cushions, and LED lighting. First installations of Business Class curtains, refreshed wainscoting and bulkhead, and refreshed café cars.
Spring & Summer 2018: Final installations of all items.

The car interiors look better, are a bit more comfortable since the cushions are new, the big question is how long will they be kept up?


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## tommylicious (Apr 14, 2018)

so are the chefs being removed from the CL or not?


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 14, 2018)

Just rumor right now.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 15, 2018)

tommylicious said:


> so are the chefs being removed from the CL or not?


It is one of the many things under "consideration as a plan leading to the sustainability of long distance service" is being planned.





I'd expect more information towards the beginning of summer but I'm personally hoping for the long distance vision to emerge prior to May.


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## philabos (Apr 15, 2018)

Just did a round trip to New York this weekend, refurbished Amfleet both ways.

Seats very nice. Also installed new water faucets in rest rooms which actually work instead of the former trickle type.


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## daybeers (Apr 15, 2018)

philabos said:


> Just did a round trip to New York this weekend, refurbished Amfleet both ways.
> 
> Seats very nice. Also installed new water faucets in rest rooms which actually work instead of the former trickle type.


That's good to hear! However, I think this belongs in the Amfleet I Interior Refresh thread.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 15, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > so are the chefs being removed from the CL or not?
> ...


I know most of us are anxious to understand what Anderson's vision is for LD, getting that in a few weeks will be great.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 16, 2018)

I've seen food quality and staffing come and go (the bob evans breakfast scramble!). What I have not seen is whole trains come and go. No LD train has ever come back.

We can lose chefs, we can lose whole dining cars. I'm just hoping we don't lose trains. If #1 goal is to cut losses... the #1 goal is going to be to cut the major losers like the Sunset.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 16, 2018)

Once you start cutting, like the Sunset, next you cut the TE back since three days you do not have two cars of through passengers. Once the eliminations start rolling out, the effect will be easy justification for other routes that are money losers. Now Anderson might tell his management staff, list any train that is losing money in the elimination list, the profitable on the keep list, so what is left?

Personally, my train travels would be seriously curtailed if the Sunset was eliminated, unless it was a trade for a daily TE.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 16, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Once you start cutting, like the Sunset, next you cut the TE back since three days you do not have two cars of through passengers. Once the eliminations start rolling out, the effect will be easy justification for other routes that are money losers. Now Anderson might tell his management staff, list any train that is losing money in the elimination list, the profitable on the keep list, so what is left?
> 
> Personally, my train travels would be seriously curtailed if the Sunset was eliminated, unless it was a trade for a daily TE.


If you "trade the Sunset for a daily TE" you are then killing off NOL-SAS which includes HOS and keeping SAS-LAX. I couldn't imagine Houston without Amtrak train service. I'd almost rather keep that part of the SL and get rid of the rest of it, it would be way cheaper, 573 of 1995 miles, and you could combine it into the Crescent.

Technically if you merged NOL-SAS into the Crescent and SAS-LAX into the TE you could "kill the SL" without removing service to any stops along the route. The difference is passengers would have to transfer at SAS (close to if not after midnight) to travel from anywhere west of SAS to/from anywhere east of SAS and if the SL PRIIA were to be implemented they would have to anyway. On the other hand, you might be able to have a one seat ride from the east coast to Houston/San Antonio.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 16, 2018)

Extending two trains to eliminate one, benefits most except the East West travelers. You would still use about the same amount of crew and equipment, just allocated differently. Of course nothing is changing for the better with UP being the huge boulder blocking the path.


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## Ryan (Apr 19, 2018)

Amtrak speaks:

https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/

Press Release in its entirety:

Capitol Limited and lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer

WASHINGTON – Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains starting June 1.

Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes – or eaten in a private café or lounge car – and entrees such as:

Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.

Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.

These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination, eliminating on-board preparation. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.

“Our plan is to provide new and fresh food choices in a contemporary way for these overnight trains,” said Bob Dorsch, Vice President of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line. “Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient.”

Dorsch said this enhancement will continue to be refined and we look forward to hearing from our customers.

The Capitol Limited (Trains 29 & 30) operates daily between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, via Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The Lake Shore Limited (Trains 48 & 49) typically operates daily between Chicago and New York, with a section to and from Boston (Trains 448 & 449).


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## PRR 60 (Apr 19, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak speaks:
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/
> 
> ...


Wow!


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## seat38a (Apr 19, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak speaks:
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/
> 
> ...





PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak speaks:
> ...


Sounds like the Empire Builder PDX segment type meals but with some great enhancements with the beverage including alcohol. I wonder what it means by "private cafe or lounge car." A dedicated facility for sleeping car passengers or kick out all non sleeping car passengers during meal hours.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 19, 2018)

Actually it does sound and look verygood!

But "AmAir" continues unabated rushing forward with their "Me too!" Business Model!

Wonder which Am Micro Manager Critter on the Hill will be the first to attack Amtrak for the "Waste" that is the new V Diners parked in Florida while the disliked AmCafes and Diner Lites continue slinging the AmChow??


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## AmtrakLKL (Apr 19, 2018)

Sounds like the dining car is going away on the LSL and CL. Remember that temporary test to remove the dining car from the Silver Star?

What will coach passengers eat? Will these "contemporary and fresh" cold selections be available for purchase in the lounge car? Sounds like all these sleeping car options are cold. If a sleeping car passengers wants a hot meal, say a hot dog or cheeseburger, will they have to buy it in the lounge?


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## PRR 60 (Apr 19, 2018)

We can continue this discussion in the new Fresh Choices topic here.


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