# What trains should the Southern have kept



## Ctim2 (Oct 21, 2010)

This is a question for the southerners on this site. Given the almost total lack of passenger train service in South (especially the central and deep regions of the south ) which of the Southern Railway’s pre Amtrak trains (1968 – 1970) do you think they should have or you would have liked for them to have maintained and/or and transferred to Amtrak as they did with the Crescent?

Tim


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## hhswami (Oct 21, 2010)

Even though I have limited historical knowledge of the Southern Railway, I have lived in the South (Hilton Head, SC) for nearly 24 years. This question intrigued me enough to do some quick internet searching, since my closest Amtrak station of Savannah, GA has always seemed to me a viable, but never implemented, connection with Atlanta.

Since the Southern did not join Amtrak until 1979, when their only remaining passenger service left was the Crescent, the possibility of any other former Southern routes may be rendered mute. The Nancy Hanks II was operated by the Central of Georgia Railway from July, 1947 until April 30, 1971, one day before Amtrak came to be. At the time of this demise, the COG was a subsidiary of the Southern, and was merged with the Savannah and Atlanta Railway, and the Wrightsville and Tennille Railroad less than a month later. I wonder if the Nancy Hanks II would have remained in service after A-Day IF the Southern would have joined Amtrak to begin with.

Unfortunately, both the Southern's Ponce de Leon and Royal Palm between Cincinnati and Jacksonville had already become segmented relics of their former selves before this time, a mirror of the nationwide cuts of passenger rail service in the 1960s.


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## GaSteve (Oct 21, 2010)

hhswami said:


> Even though I have limited historical knowledge of the Southern Railway, I have lived in the South (Hilton Head, SC) for nearly 24 years. This question intrigued me enough to do some quick internet searching, since my closest Amtrak station of Savannah, GA has always seemed to me a viable, but never implemented, connection with Atlanta.
> 
> Since the Southern did not join Amtrak until 1979, when their only remaining passenger service left was the Crescent, the possibility of any other former Southern routes may be rendered mute. The Nancy Hanks II was operated by the Central of Georgia Railway from July, 1947 until April 30, 1971, one day before Amtrak came to be. At the time of this demise, the COG was a subsidiary of the Southern, and was merged with the Savannah and Atlanta Railway, and the Wrightsville and Tennille Railroad less than a month later. I wonder if the Nancy Hanks II would have remained in service after A-Day IF the Southern would have joined Amtrak to begin with.
> 
> Unfortunately, both the Southern's Ponce de Leon and Royal Palm between Cincinnati and Jacksonville had already become segmented relics of their former selves before this time, a mirror of the nationwide cuts of passenger rail service in the 1960s.


Before Amtrak, at least for a while, there was a section of the Crescent that split at Salisbury and went to Asheville.


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## George Harris (Oct 21, 2010)

The major problem Southern with many of their trains was low average speed. Most of that was terrain related. Simply put, the increased road speeds possible as the interstates were built and other highways improved decimated their ridership. For example: The Tennessean between Knoxville adn Memphis took 10.5 hours to cover 450 miles. Greyhoud or trailwasy eitehr one could do it in 8 and it could be driven in about 7. After I 40 was complete, it could be driven in 7, even with a sit down meal stop. And, the Tennessean was not by any means the slowest. The ridership on the Tennessean was still not too bad as late as 1964, but within another 2 years, it dropped by more than 50%, that being based on the fact that I was riding it somewhat regularly during this time.

The Royal Palm was a potential keeper, although not really fast, the massive rebuilds on the CNO&TP make it very reliable on timekeeping. But, like Amtrak's Floridian, it suffered from declining quality of connections north of Cincinatti.

A second northeast to Atlanta train made sense. The daylight train Southnern operated into early Amtrak suffered form a relatively slow schedule compared to the overnight Southern Crescent, but a part of that was due to its being scheduled for the piggyback on the tail end. A train more in line with the old northbound Crescent / soutbound Piedmont would seem reasonable. That is, leaving New York in the evening, DC about midnight for a reasonable morning arrival at Charlotte NC. The Piedmont lost out because of a relatively slow schedule for the route and teh perception that it was a secondary run.

Southern killed off the connection of the Kansas City - Florida Special to Jacksonville while the train still had reasonable ridership west of Atlanta. Equipment could have been combined with the Royal Palm between Atlanta and Jacksonville. However, here we get again the Southern's alignment related problems. To this day, Atlanta - Birmingham is slligtly over 4 hours for 165 miles, and that is pushing it. The KC Florida Special took somewhere around 5 hours for this distance Combine this with 6 hours for the 255 miles on the Frisco between Memphis and Birmingham, and again, you have the major speed problem. Given that most of US 78 is now to Interstate standards, Memphis to Atlanta can now be driven 7 hours without difficulty. Not sure a train that could at best do the distance in 10 hours would get much ridership.

There was also the curious lack of a decent Memphis-Atlanta overnight train - ever. This could ahve been accomplished relatively easily by making it a part of the Tennessean between Memphis and Chattanooga. Given the Tennessean's schedule, you would have a start of the business day arrival on both ends. The only approximation of an overnight on this route was gone by or before 1960, a sleeper that ran through with the Frisco at Birmingham and was painfully slow. (Atlanta arrival at about 1:00 pm eastbound.)

While not involving Southern Railway itself, but subsidiary Central of Georgia, the killing off of the City of Miami at the inception of Amtrak flew in the face of the relative ridership of the two remaining Chicago - Florida trains. Admittedly, ICRR's track quality was going down the tube at that time, but not that much more than, and in some areas much less than that of the lines used by the Sotuh Wind. I think Amtrak based their decision on the basis of the population of on-line cities, not ridership.


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## George Harris (Oct 21, 2010)

hhswami said:


> The Nancy Hanks II was operated by the Central of Georgia Railway from July, 1947 until April 30, 1971, one day before Amtrak came to be. At the time of this demise, the COG was a subsidiary of the Southern, and was merged with the Savannah and Atlanta Railway, and the Wrightsville and Tennille Railroad less than a month later. I wonder if the Nancy Hanks II would have remained in service after A-Day IF the Southern would have joined Amtrak to begin with.


Killing off teh Nanch Hanks II and their portion of the City of Miami was the main reason Southern had the CofG joint Amtrak. There was even an unsuccessful lawsuit about this if I remmeber correctly.

(By the way, the word is "moot", not "mute")


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## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 21, 2010)

GaSteve said:


> hhswami said:
> 
> 
> > Even though I have limited historical knowledge of the Southern Railway, I have lived in the South (Hilton Head, SC) for nearly 24 years. This question intrigued me enough to do some quick internet searching, since my closest Amtrak station of Savannah, GA has always seemed to me a viable, but never implemented, connection with Atlanta.
> ...



About the through cars from NYC to Asheville. Yes they did run some on the Crescent. But from Salisbury, Later Greesboro, the train was called the Asheville Special. There were also through pullmans from NYC to Augusta,switching over at Charlotte from the Crescent to the Augusta Special.Those were considered combined trains out of NYP and WAS.NEWS FLASH, double checking the two NYC to Ashville sleepers were actually carried southbound on the Southener and northbond combined with the Crescent.

Cars switched on and off en route, cars switched from one train to another was the order of the day in pre Amtrak days. Also cars going one way on one train one way on another happened.

There is a post on here with somebody asking about 1930 trains, from Asheville to NYC. Some info on that relates to this.It is under "Other Rail Transportation".


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## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 21, 2010)

George Harris said:


> The major problem Southern with many of their trains was low average speed. Most of that was terrain related. Simply put, the increased road speeds possible as the interstates were built and other highways improved decimated their ridership. For example: The Tennessean between Knoxville adn Memphis took 10.5 hours to cover 450 miles. Greyhoud or trailwasy eitehr one could do it in 8 and it could be driven in about 7. After I 40 was complete, it could be driven in 7, even with a sit down meal stop. And, the Tennessean was not by any means the slowest. The ridership on the Tennessean was still not too bad as late as 1964, but within another 2 years, it dropped by more than 50%, that being based on the fact that I was riding it somewhat regularly during this time.
> 
> The Royal Palm was a potential keeper, although not really fast, the massive rebuilds on the CNO&TP make it very reliable on timekeeping. But, like Amtrak's Floridian, it suffered from declining quality of connections north of Cincinatti.
> 
> ...



George, about Memphis to Atlanta. If some schedule adjustment was made, particularly in the north/west direction from ATL to Memphis, the Tennessean perhaps could have connected in Chattanooga with the overnight L&N (formerly NC&STL) Atlanta to Nashvlle all stops local.

You will recall there was for many years a sleeper which ran from Bristol to Chattanooga on the Tennessean then switched across the city to the other station for the night local to go straight through from Bristol to Nashville.

So with some schedule adjustment it might be done but of course times at other stations have to be consdered.

Of course if both trains were scheduled to be in Chattanooga at the same with two equipment swaps, a sleeper from Bristol to Nashville and one from Atlanta to Memphis, it would have been some mighty interesting switching activity.And perhaps it could have been a few hours faster than the Sunnyland.


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## jphjaxfl (Oct 22, 2010)

When Amtrak started, Southern had 3 other trains besides the Crescent. There was the former Piedmont LTD which ran on a day schedule from Washington to Atlanta, a Washington-Lynchburg train which was a reminant of one of the Washington to Bristol trains and an Asheville-Salisbury train that connected with the Piedmont on a daylight schedule. All these trains carried TOFC cars behind the few passenger cars. Southern really didn't want any passenger trains other than the Crescent. They used unique tactics to discontinue trains such as the Royal Palm, Birmingham Special, Pelican and Tennessean in the 1960s. With the Pelican, for example, they got permission to discontinue the train in the State of Mississippi, they didn't need any permission in Louisiana since there was only one stop so the Pelican was trunicated to a Washington-York, AL train. The train had been overnight from Chattanooga and Birmingham to New Orleans so it arrived in York, AL southbound in the wee hours of the night and left at the same time. That killed any passengers traveling south of Birmingham and really Chattanooga. Not too long after that the train was discontinued south of Bristol. They avoided filing with the ICC which would have been tougher in allowing discontinuance. The Royal Palm already cut back to a Cincinnati to Atlanta train was discontinued within the state of TN by agreement with the state commerce commission. It continued to run Cincinnati to Danville, Ky and from Ringold, GA to Atlanta. Guess what? The passenger loads on those local runs dwindled to 0 so the train came off without any problems with the ICC. Many Southern Railway officials traveled on the Crescent from the Washington headquarters to the Atlanta Regional Division Offices in the big white building that still exists (no longer railroad offices) near where Terminal Station in Atlanta used to be so the Crescent was kept nice for them...otherwise Southern wanted out of the Passenger business more than say the Santa Fe, Seaboard Coastline, Burlington Northern or Kansas City Southern.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 22, 2010)

With all the talk about Southern RR trains from the past would anyone like a very brief very basic rundown of the major named trains from,say, the March 1955 timetable?

NOTE: all I am shooting for here for is very basic route info, very little of all the elaborate network of sleeper operations. Except, however, let me say that no train shown going from NYC to southern points had through coaches from NYP except for the Southerner. It had coaches all the way from NYC to NOL but coach passengers on other trains had to change in Washington. Further trains from NYC to WAS were in most cases combined with local Pennsylvania RR trains for that portion.

I have made some notes about Florida trains and Carolina trains but otherwise I have left a lot unsaid since it would be a bit much to type all that. Plus it was forever changing. Should anyone desire more detailed info do not hesitate to ask or to PM me.

Here goes:

Crescent, NYP, WAS, Lynchburg, Charlotte, Atlanta, Montgomery, Mobile, NOL

Piedmont Limited, same as above

Washington Atlanta New Orleans Express, same as above but only to Atlanta(in spite of the train's name)

Peach Queen, same as above but only to Atlanta

Southerner, NYP, WAS, Lynchburg, Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham,Meridian, NOL same as today's Crescent

Pelican NYP, WAS, Lynchburg,Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga. Birmingham, Meridian, NOL

Birmingham Special, same as above but only to Birmingham

Tennessean, same as above but from Chattanooga went to Huntsville and Memphis

Augusta Special, NYP, WAS, Lynchburg, Charlotte, Columbia, Augusta

Asheville Special, NYP, WAS, Lynchburg,Greensboro, Asheville

Carolina Special, Cincinnati, Lexington,Knoville and Asheville. From Asheville one section went to Charleston, the other section to Greensboro. Through pullmans from Chicago

Sunnyland, Atlanta, Birmingham, Memphis

Royal Palm, Cincinnati, Lexington,Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon,Jacksonville

Ponce de Leon, same as above but through sleeper Detroit to Jacksonville and Cleveland to Tampa

Kansas City Florida Special, Kansas City,Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Jacksonville, through sleeper to Miami

New Royal Palm (winter season train) coaches and pullmans Detroit, Cincinnati, Lexington,Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Jacksonville, Miami, through sleepers from Buffalo, Cleveland and Chicago.

Skyland Special, Asheville, Spartanburg,Columbia, Jacksonville

Remember folks, this is just the basics. PM me for mre.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 22, 2010)

More to the original question, the expanded service from WAS to Lynchburg reminds one of the remnant of the Birmingham Special which operated for a time on Southern after Amtrak Started. And you only have to loo at my preceding post to see some of the business through Lynchburg in the distant past.


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## George Harris (Oct 22, 2010)

To add a few thoughts to Bill Haithcoat's excellent overview:

The Birmingham Special made a reasonably good connection with the Southerner at Birmingham for people in Chattanooga and points northeast that wished to go further south. Also: from Chattanooga Southern ran a connecting train that was an all-stops local to Memphis. The sign for it at Memphis Union Station said Birmingham Special despite the fact that it was hardly a special and did not go to Birmingham.

The other interesting point was a once a day four way shuffle at Spartanburg NC. The Carolina Special (Cincinatti - Knoxville - Asheville - Spartanburg - Charleston) in both directions and the Piedmont Limited (Washington - Atlanta main) in both directions were scheduled to all be there at the same time forming a nice western Carolinas hub and spoke oeration long before the airlines invented the term.

I have been told by a former Southern Railway man I know that when Brosnan became chief operating officer he realized that the company was all but bankrupt and sorely in need of modernization. Among other things, tehy had the lightest average weight of rail of any of the Class 1's, an extensive passenger service oriented to 1920's conditions, and an almost non-mechanized maintenance force. Among his most obvious changes was to start buying all the rail he could afford, mostly in 132RE, and lay it welded. That immediatly started driving down the cost of track maintenance and also the cost of operations and equipment maintenance. Traction motors, just to name one thing, last a lot longer when they don't get a jolt every 19.5 feet (half a rail length because joints are staggered.) He also was early into piggyback and as part of doing that was to go into a program of major clearance improvements. (The Southern did not purchase any dome cars in their last major order of passenger equipment, which was for such trains as the Royal Palm and Crescent. The Royal Palm's daytime trek through eastern Kentucky would have been a natural for domes, but did not happen due to tight clearances in their tunnels.) Brosnan'c clearance program was, let's meke them 20 feet wide and 30 feet high so that we never have to do this again. My guess is that part of the height was allowing for the possibility of electrification. That this clearance work had been done was why in the post Amtrak era a dome car could be run Salisbury to Asheville. This decision to go for do it right so that you only have to do it once has to be contrasted with the do it to just barely clear the containers that is bing done now across West Virginia on the former N&W main.


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## Ctim2 (Oct 24, 2010)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> More to the original question, the expanded service from WAS to Lynchburg reminds one of the remnant of the Birmingham Special which operated for a time on Southern after Amtrak Started. And you only have to loo at my preceding post to see some of the business through Lynchburg in the distant past.



I am responding to my own questionhere. I am of the mind that the Pelican with is Memphis connection/thru Car service at Chattanooga should have been a keeper (as it reportedly made money before it that systematically killed) I would even settle for keeping the Birmingham Special which shared the same route to its name sake city. Additionally, I don't think keeping the overnight Peach Queen or the all day piedmont as an opposite service to the Crescent would have hurt; outside of the Southern I would have loved for the Pan American to have survived.

Tim


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## George Harris (Oct 25, 2010)

Funny, on the Bristol - Chattanooga line, the ridership was mostly on the Tennessean and the Pelican. The Pelican still had multiple sleepers north of Bristol in the 1962 - 1964 time frame, well after most routes off the Washington - Atlanta main were down to one car, if any. The B'ham Special was always fairly light. Yet, the B'ham Special was the last train running. At the end of its day, the remnant of the Tennessean was a Memphis - Chattanooga connection to the Pelican. Unfortunately, this gave it very bad times at the Memphis end, but in and out.

The last time I rode the Tennesseean, which was in about mid 1966, it was down to two coaches, and one would have normally been sufficient for the patronage, both 1920's heavyweights. In the early 60's, the coaches were usually the smooth sided cars, and there was a stainless steel sleeper. A Dinette or diner-lounge was cut into the train for the Knoxville - Washington daytime portion. Somewhere about this time, the sleeper was cut back from all the way to DC to Bristol and then to Knoxville.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jun 20, 2012)

I think they should have kept another NYP-ATL, a train CIN-JAX, and the last one NYP-MEM.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 28, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I think they should have kept another NYP-ATL, a train CIN-JAX, and the last one NYP-MEM.


I see where you are coming from, I think. Spread out an old timetable (of which I have many) and this gets kind of gets to the gist of the whole thing and without too much duplication


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## xyzzy (Jun 28, 2012)

Although Southern acquired its last passenger locomotives and cars in the early 1950s, a significant portion of both the locomotive and car fleets dated to the 1940s or before. The old equipment would have been increasingly difficult and expensive to keep running if Southern had retained trains longer. In fact, this was one of the reasons why Southern ultimately decided to give up the Southern Crescent.

Any suggestion that Southern "should" have kept more trains is just fantasy. The miracle is that any of them survived after May 1971.


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