# Princeton "Dinky" to Vanish???



## Bob Dylan (Aug 21, 2013)

There's an interesting Post on trainorders that says that the State of NJ and Princeton University want to shut down the Dinky and tear down the Old PRR Station located on the Campus! Those of us that rode it last year @ th PHL Gathering remember it was a fun ride, something that usually only Princeton Students and Staff get to experience! (Wonder if Einstein rode it?) The Post mentions that Gov. Chrisite and his Henchmen are behind this as Princeton wants the land where the Station and Route are located to build a New Building and also make it into a dedicated Bus Lane! 

Do any of our NJ Members have any more info or thoughts on this Unwelcome News? :help:


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## TVRM610 (Aug 21, 2013)

How sad! I rode it when I went to a show years ago at the Performing Arts Center. I thought it was very fun and unique.


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## jis (Aug 21, 2013)

No. They want to move the station by 700' to make room for an Arts Center. The proposal is being fought vigorously by rail advocates and others in the Princeton area. That has nothing to do with the bus lane proposal.

The dedicated bus lane idea is dead. It died with the death of the Rt 1 BRT idea. They were basically trying to add the Dinky to it to gussy upthe ridership number to cross a threshold for getting federal funding. But the whole proposal died due to local opposition.

There is also a proposal floating around to convert it to an LRT Line that will go past the station location into Princeton Campus too.

There is also apparently an offer from a private rail operator to acquire the line from NJT and operate it independently. All sorts of stuff going on.

NJT has not been a good steward of this responsibility and it needs a long term fix ideally involving removing it from the incompetent hands of NJT.


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## Nathanael (Aug 21, 2013)

NJT may have a change in management soon, after they were caught not following their own flood-management plan, and then lying about it and concealing it. (That was actually criminal behavior.)

Unfortunately, the real problem for the Dinky is that Princeton University administration seems to be hostile to it.

This is *nuts*, but university administrations have been really really out-of-touch in recent decades -- I could go on a long rant about that, but I'll just give you a short rant. Big salaries for the administrators, lots and lots of gold-plated new buildings, tuition way up, but money spent on teaching... flat. This is not the mentality of people who care about whether the teachers or students can get to the university or of people who care about teaching or learning -- it's the mentality of people building monuments to themselves. Princeton University is no exception.


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## jerichowhiskey (Aug 21, 2013)

Would moving it 700' be an actual problem for commuters? Can they not move any existing connecting bus services to the realigned station?


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## jis (Aug 21, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> NJT may have a change in management soon, after they were caught not following their own flood-management plan, and then lying about it and concealing it. (That was actually criminal behavior.)


NJT cannot possibly have effective management change until the Governor changes, because the Governor or rather his Transport Commissioner is the ex-Offico Chair of NJT and the Chief Executive is the Commissioner's appointee, as is each member of the Board with almost zero oversight - go figure. This sort of behavior is par for the course in NJ, and my bet is nothing will change until the Governor changes. Any change that might happen would be purely cosmetic - the minimal required to fulfill any court order if and when that happens, which also may not.
Did I hear NJ has a huge governance problem? You bet it does, and has had it for ever apparently. The governance problem at NJT has been since day one of its existence.


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## Nathanael (Aug 21, 2013)

jerichowhiskey said:


> Would moving it 700' be an actual problem for commuters? Can they not move any existing connecting bus services to the realigned station?


The relocation would chop off the opportunity for extension as a light rail line into Princeton Borough, which has been proposed repeatedly. The University wants to build buildings on top of the ROW.

Also, they want to shut down and demolish a State and National Register of Historic Places station in favor of a platform with no building. The attitude is clear.


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## jis (Aug 21, 2013)

Actually there is a more serious conflict of interest involving the Governor himself, who is the boss of NJT, and sits on the Princeton Board of Governors. He is essentially transferring property from NJT to Princeton U without consulting anyone else or recusing himself. but again. This is New Jersey!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 21, 2013)

Doesn't seem to matter who's in Power in NJ does it? And the Beat goes on!


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## fairviewroad (Aug 21, 2013)

jerichowhiskey said:


> Would moving it 700' be an actual problem for commuters? Can they not move any existing connecting bus services to the realigned station?


For that matter, would scrapping it entirely and replacing it with a shuttle bus "be an actual problem for commuters?"

I'd guess no. Other than its nostalgia and "neat-o" factor, it's hard to really see the case for running this except as a way

to maintain the right-of-way for future rail expansions. But swapping it with a shuttle bus wouldn't cost anyone a one-seat

ride, and the bus could potentially be more convenient as it could serve more stops in Princeton and could have a much

more flexible schedule.


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## railiner (Aug 21, 2013)

Did the Pennsy ever run a thru train from Princeton to or from New York? I'm talking about going way back in time......I just thought that perhaps they might have at one time or another, perhaps only in the rush hours....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 21, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> jerichowhiskey said:
> 
> 
> > Would moving it 700' be an actual problem for commuters? Can they not move any existing connecting bus services to the realigned station?
> ...


What they might want to do is scrap the tracks and keep the building. Then run an LRT or shuttle bus to Princeton Junction. That shuttle bus might not be such a bad idea, but transit buses always seem to have a slew of problems.


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## Acela150 (Aug 21, 2013)

jis said:


> Actually there is a more serious conflict of interest involving the Governor himself, who is the boss of NJT, and sits on the Princeton Board of Governors. He is essentially transferring property from NJT to Princeton U without consulting anyone else or recusing himself. but again. This is New Jersey!


Chris Christie does what he wants when he wants.. Ask him about the time he took a State Police Chopper to his son's little league game. He says "I'll pay the state back Out of pocket" Considering he's the governor, I'm sure the state took the bill on that. I don't have a lot of good comments about CC.


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## jis (Aug 21, 2013)

railiner said:


> Did the Pennsy ever run a thru train from Princeton to or from New York? I'm talking about going way back in time......I just thought that perhaps they might have at one time or another, perhaps only in the rush hours....


Upto sometime in the 70s there was a universal crossover at Nassau Interlocking just east of Princeton Jct. Station. The entire interlocking is gone. All that you can see now is the Nassau Tower which still stands on the south side of the ROW. So the trackage for through service was there as late as that. However, through service had apparently been discontinued quite a while before that from what I hear. It was all before my time, i.e. way before I came to this country.
I don't think anyone is seriously talking about tearing up the rails on Princeton branch yet. There is a study sitting somewhere that shows that operating it using single crew European commuter equipment would be cheaper than operating a substitute bus shuttle. This is also consistent with the experience in Salt Lake City. Problem with the current service is not that it runs on rails but the completely crazy Union rules that go with it being an FRA governed railroad, with the baggage of historical contracts. For example that one car train requires two crew members!

Ideally something like the tram rail service in Mulhouse which operates from downtown to Than first on streets then on its own tracks, and then from Than to Kruth on shared trackage with SNCF would be the way to go on something like the Princeton Branch. With the new proposed Tier I standards that would even be feasible. But what will actually happen is anyone's guess.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 21, 2013)

jis said:


> Actually there is a more serious conflict of interest involving the Governor himself, who is the boss of NJT, and sits on the Princeton Board of Governors. He is essentially transferring property from NJT to Princeton U without consulting anyone else or recusing himself. but again. This is New Jersey!


Since the Governor of New Jersey is, by the rules of the university, always an ex officio member of the Princeton Board of Trustees, would this "serious conflict of interest" in fact mean that the university could never enter into any legal business arrangement with the state - ever? How exactly would that work? Perhaps he or she would recluse themselves from any actions that involve the state. Do we know that did not occur in this case, or that he was even in attendance when the vote was taken? He is one vote on a 40-person board.

As for this awful action, the station move is 460 feet, not 700 feet. Not a huge difference, but 460 feet is less than 700 feet. As a point of reference, 460 feet is less than 1/10 of a mile: less than the length of six rail cars. That must be one truly ugly 460 feet given the bluster from some rail advocacy groups that suggest it would all but kill the Dinky. Americans must be more out of shape than even I thought, or maybe just Princeton students.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 21, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Actually there is a more serious conflict of interest involving the Governor himself, who is the boss of NJT, and sits on the Princeton Board of Governors. He is essentially transferring property from NJT to Princeton U without consulting anyone else or recusing himself. but again. This is New Jersey!
> ...


If it's only 460 feet, no one should mind the extra walk at all. These rail advocates often go crazy for anything slightly against the rail service, so that's why they often can't be trusted. Those spoiled Princeton students!


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## jis (Aug 22, 2013)

It is not the 460' or 700' that is the issue. The issue is this will forever make it impossible to convert this line to an LRT line continuing into Princeton. But I suppose sometimes railfans are harder to convince of such things than even non railfans. 

Saving the possibility of using a rail route for future expanded rail service? Perish the thought! :help: . I chalk it upto my inability to explain. :unsure:


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## PRR 60 (Aug 22, 2013)

Did you just call me a "railfan?" Ouch! 

Looking at the existing conditions and the proposed development, I can't see the fatal flaw. I don't understand how the proposed 460 foot truncation makes a future extension impossible any more than I can understand how the existing situation makes it particularly viable. Difficult? Yes, but it would not be all that easy today either. Regardless, this is Princeton. I don't see that town and those people being receptive to a trolley line running down their main street. Princeton is the world headquarters of NIMBYism, and they have money and power and the desire to put up a fight - a potent mix. Fact of life.


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## jis (Aug 22, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> Did you just call me a "railfan?" Ouch!
> Looking at the existing conditions and the proposed development, I can't see the fatal flaw. I don't understand how the proposed 460 foot truncation makes a future extension impossible any more than I can understand how the existing situation makes it particularly viable. Difficult? Yes, but it would not be all that easy today either. Regardless, this is Princeton. I don't see that town and those people being receptive to a trolley line running down their main street. Princeton is the world headquarters of NIMBYism, and they have money and power and the desire to put up a fight - a potent mix. Fact of life.


Sigh. You may very well be right about Princeton.

About Christie, of course his ex-officio membership of the Board of Princeton and the Chief of NJT should not prevent Princeton from entering into a deal with NJT. But it should happen after the Governor has recused himself from the process. Instead it is on record that he more or less instructed NJT to enter into the deal, which at least in my thinking is inappropriate. But I am also told that this is normally how things are done in NJ. So C'est la vie I suppose. And I thought political processes only in India were corrupt. Oh well!

The campaign to save the current station is being run by Save the Dinky.

BTW, why on earth is this in "_Amtrak Rail Discussion_"? This has absolutely nothing to do with Amtrak!


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## Anderson (Aug 22, 2013)

Yeah, I'd been iffy about it being in here. Moving the thread to Commuter Rail.


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## jis (Aug 22, 2013)

Anderson said:


> Yeah, I'd been iffy about it being in here. Moving the thread to Commuter Rail.


Thanks much!


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## Anderson (Aug 22, 2013)

Just a thought, but it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if the Dinky were converted to a light rail operation that was extended through Princeton. Mind you, the NIMBY issues come to mind, but something with more than one stop might be more useful to the town and campus.


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## jis (Aug 22, 2013)

The most viable rail solution is to convert it to Light Rail. It is not possible to carry on running it as commuter rail with a single or two car consist given the staffing requirements forced by a combination of FRA and union contracts. And of course not only going into town but then going beyond on Rt 206 or Rt 1 corridor would be attractive, though the high browed hoi-poloi in Princeton may not like providing such easy access to "those people" from the lowly suburbs either. 

However, if PRR is right, and he probably is, the most likely outcome is that Princeton U will start running its own bus service to PJC and this little train line will eventually fade away over a few years. I doubt that they will actually use the rail ROW for anything. It will just take every one 15 minutes instead of 5 to get from Princeton to PJC as the bus winds through horrendous traffic across Rt 1.


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## fairviewroad (Aug 22, 2013)

jis said:


> The most viable rail solution is to convert it to Light Rail. It is not possible to carry on running it as commuter rail with a single or two car consist given the staffing requirements forced by a combination of FRA and union contracts. And of course not only going into town but then going beyond on Rt 206 or Rt 1 corridor would be attractive, though the high browed hoi-poloi in Princeton may not like providing such easy access to "those people" from the lowly suburbs either.
> However, if PRR is right, and he probably is, the most likely outcome is that Princeton U will start running its own bus service to PJC and this little train line will eventually fade away over a few years. I doubt that they will actually use the rail ROW for anything. It will just take every one 15 minutes instead of 5 to get from Princeton to PJC as the bus winds through horrendous traffic across Rt 1.


But if the bus takes them to/drops them off somewhere on campus/in town that's closer to their destination, rather than an immovable train station that could still be a 10-minute walk away, then the overall trip time would be the same or better in many cases.

Another thought: Could the ROW be turned into a bike path? (I'm sure that's been considered). It could then still serve as a way for commuters to get to/from the trainstation (in addition to bus service).


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## CHamilton (Aug 22, 2013)

Apparently, Princeton hasn't been focused on transportation. They've been conducting groundbreaking research, according to _The Onion_. 

Study: People Far Away From You Not Actually Smaller









> PRINCETON, NJ—According to a groundbreaking new study published Thursday in _The Journal Of Natural And Applied Sciences_, people who are far away from you are actually not, as once thought, physically smaller than you.
> 
> The five-year study, conducted by researchers at Princeton University, has shattered traditionally accepted theories that people standing some distance away from you are very small, and people close-by are very big.


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## CHamilton (Dec 20, 2013)

Less convenience=lower ridership



> New Jersey Transit’s (NJT) 2.9-mile Princeton Branch of its commuter rail network, known as the Dinky, on August 23 saw its Princeton station relocated 700 feet farther from the center of town to accommodate Princeton University’s “Arts and Transit” project. The branch connects Princeton with NJT’s Northeast Corridor line and some Amtrak trains at Princeton Junction, offering an hour and 25-minute ride to New York City. ...In the two months since the relocation, the Dinky’s ridership has gone down 13 percent compared to the same two months last year.


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## Fan Railer (Dec 20, 2013)

well, ain't that a no-brainer...


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## greatcats (Dec 20, 2013)

Hopefully the patronage will rebound when the new station is complete. f(?????) if my former employer NJT does not sabotage it too much. I used to ride it when I was a student at Westminster Chpir College starting in 1969. The old PRR owl eye cars were still in use. When visiting New Jersey this past May for my alumni week, I made use of the Dinky from the old station. The present " temporary " station from what I have read is difficult to access as a pedestrian. How brilliant are the bureaucrats.


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## CHamilton (May 20, 2014)

From the Letters to the Editor, Times of Trenton, 5/20/14 (fourth letter on this page).



> *Keep riding the rails to Princeton*
> 
> The Milepost 3 marker of the NJ Transit Princeton branch stands alone on the Princeton University campus near Blair Arch, a lone testament to the rail line that ran almost all the way to Nassau Street starting in 1865. The latest truncation of the line, the fourth undertaken by the university over more than a century, puts the Dinky station almost a mile away from that original location....
> 
> ...


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## neroden (May 20, 2014)

For some reason, the Princeton Hedge Fund And University has been intent on sabotaging public transportation in Princeton for a long time.

All part of the degeneration of universities in this country, by "corporatization". Don't get me started on that, but the short summary is, never give money to a university, they'll spend it on administrator salaries.


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## jis (May 20, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Hopefully the patronage will rebound when the new station is complete. f(?????) if my former employer NJT does not sabotage it too much. I used to ride it when I was a student at Westminster Chpir College starting in 1969. The old PRR owl eye cars were still in use. When visiting New Jersey this past May for my alumni week, I made use of the Dinky from the old station. The present " temporary " station from what I have read is difficult to access as a pedestrian. How brilliant are the bureaucrats.


Your former employer unfortunately is hell bent on getting rid of the dinky by hook or by crook. A typical case of a fox guarding the hen house.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 20, 2014)

The dinky in its current form is a horrendously expensive operation.


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## jis (May 20, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The dinky in its current form is a horrendously expensive operation.


In its present form it is not viable in the long run. It has to be converted to something that can be operated by a single person crew, and preferably can be extended into Princeton town. Otherwise its days on rail are numbered as far as I can see. Experience with the bus service by the way has been less than spectacular because of the legendary traffic jams in and around Princeton.


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## greatcats (May 20, 2014)

HI jis- I have no love for my former employer, NJT. Otherwise, I would have worked until 2013, instead of resigning in 2002. That is another story. Since last year I am collecting RR Retirement, which puts a smile on my face. I do hope the Princeton Branch remains, but nothing would surprise me. After all, they have to save money, in order to create more bosses' jobs! Harrumph! I do keep in contact with some of my former co-workers, one of whom has visited me in Arizona.


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## neroden (May 20, 2014)

greatcats said:


> After all, they have to save money, in order to create more bosses' jobs!


Sounds like the typical story at the typical American university -- they claim they can't afford to hire more tenure-track faculty, then they hire more administrators and raise their salaries.


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