# Why not assigned seats in reserved coach?



## me_little_me (Aug 26, 2010)

I didn't find anything on a search for this topic. In Europe, you can get a seat reservation on a reserved seat train but on Amtrak, you are at the mercy of the coach attendant it seems as to which car and which seat you get. Is it just the bureaucracy that stops Amtrak from allowing you to select seats? After all, it has to be bureaucracy, not technology that keeps them from having the conductor electronically scan tickets as well as sleeper occupancy and car problems then sending that wirelessly.


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## johnny (Aug 26, 2010)

me_little_me said:


> I didn't find anything on a search for this topic. In Europe, you can get a seat reservation on a reserved seat train but on Amtrak, you are at the mercy of the coach attendant it seems as to which car and which seat you get. Is it just the bureaucracy that stops Amtrak from allowing you to select seats? After all, it has to be bureaucracy, not technology that keeps them from having the conductor electronically scan tickets as well as sleeper occupancy and car problems then sending that wirelessly.


because they haven't truly implemented electronic tickets, (although it is in the plan). Also, if you recall, not all stations are staffed and tickets can be bought on board. When those 2 things (and who knows what else) comes together, it might happen.

PS: not all of us want assigned seats.


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## me_little_me (Aug 26, 2010)

johnny said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't find anything on a search for this topic. In Europe, you can get a seat reservation on a reserved seat train but on Amtrak, you are at the mercy of the coach attendant it seems as to which car and which seat you get. Is it just the bureaucracy that stops Amtrak from allowing you to select seats? After all, it has to be bureaucracy, not technology that keeps them from having the conductor electronically scan tickets as well as sleeper occupancy and car problems then sending that wirelessly.
> ...


Seems electronic ticketing wouldn't be fully necessary on long distance trains if each ticket had a bar code scannable into his laptop by the conductor (at his leisure). For those he sells or for upgrades he sells, he would enter minimal info such as room number sold and that would be transmitted automatically at the next station (which would have wireless) or via an aircard. If the reservation system was like Europe, seat assignment would not be an issue.

As to not wanting assigned seats, in Europe your ticket is independent of your reservation so you can have a ticket that is good any time (unless it is restricted) and you buy a reservation at the same time or later. If you miss your train, you lose the 5€ or so reservation charge. You can always travel w/o reservations but you may or may not find a seat (or at least may not find a good seat). For frequent travelers who know the best seats (and rooms), they can reserve them if they wish. Reservations on trains in Europe must be made at least 24 hours ahead as the seats have little cards showing they are reserved.


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## amamba (Aug 26, 2010)

They should really be assigning seats on acela so people that get on in places like PVD and PHL can sit together. But we have had this conversation before on this board.

I can't remember why this system isn't live on Acela, maybe Alan will help me out here


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## mfastx (Aug 26, 2010)

Yes, I agree. The Amtrak website should have the same format as any airline, allowing you to select your seats, with a map of the coach (or whatever car you would like). Then just pick where you want to sit. It would be so easy.


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## AlanB (Aug 26, 2010)

amamba said:


> They should really be assigning seats on acela so people that get on in places like PVD and PHL can sit together. But we have had this conversation before on this board.


Well it would only help if you knew early enough that you were traveling and booked then. Last minute bookings, it would be far more likely that you wouldn't be able to get seats together. And in fact, for families booking last minute, the current system may actually work better for them.



amamba said:


> I can't remember why this system isn't live on Acela, maybe Alan will help me out here


When Acela was first designed, Amtrak was working on a system that would have allowed electronic ticket collection (ETC). It wouldn't have been what we know today as E-tickets where you can just bring a printout from your computer to the airline gate. It would still have required a physical ticket, but the conductor would have scanned the barcode printed even today on all Amtrak tickets. After scanning the ticket, he would have then punched in your seat number where you were sitting and the electronic display still visible today above the seats would have shown your destination. No seat checks required and no chaff on the floor from punching the tickets like they still do today.

Along with that system, the onboard computers would have transferred the data up to the mainframe computers, and Amtrak would now no who had no-showed, and would be able to place that seat back up for sale at stations up line.

Furthermore, one would have been able to actually select one's seat online. In fact for a period of maybe 6 months or so, one could actually select one's seat if you were traveling in First Class. You could pull up an actual diagram that showed every seat, which way it faced, and whether or not it was already sold. You didn't have to select your seat, one would automatically be assigned if you didn't.

All these wonderful things came to a crashing halt within one year of Acela's introduction. In fact, the ETC never happened and therefore the LED displays were never used. But again, one could pick one's seat in FC for a while.

Reasons for the ending of things included, software design problems and the money running out before it could be fixed. This was before PDA's, so the equipment that the conductors would have needed to carry was more bulky than it would be today and the conductors objected to that weight. The conductors also felt that this would be used to decrease the number of conductors, so they also objected for that reason too.

With ETC now dead, one of the bigger reasons for assigning seats in FC went away since it was tied to the same software. Additionally, many of the business people who for years had used the sit anywhere FC seats on the Metroliner's objected to being assigned a specific seat. Especially since many of them either didn't know that they should have picked a seat or because their corporate agent picked a seat. Additionally of course, not all seats face forward now, unlike a Metroliner, and there were now tables too, something that also didn't exist in the Metroliner FC car.

So they refused to sit in their assigned seats. The FC crews fearing a loss of their tips for angering people, refused to enforce the seat assignments. This of course led to considerable confusion when someone actually did want the seat that they had selected, like me.  So seats assignments died a quiet death before Acela ever got to its first anniversary.

I’m sure that the software is still there and it wouldn’t take much to reactivate it, but I don’t see that happening at least until E-ticketing goes into effect and maybe not even then.


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## HP_Lovecraft (Aug 26, 2010)

How do European trains handle the problem of allowing people to pick seats? I mean, someone who buys a ticket late in the process would not be able to stay in the same seat. They might, theoretically, have to change seats with every stop!

The process works on planes since they only have one destination, but this would be a nightmare on a train with many stops.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 26, 2010)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> How do European trains handle the problem of allowing people to pick seats? I mean, someone who buys a ticket late in the process would not be able to stay in the same seat. They might, theoretically, have to change seats with every stop!
> 
> The process works on planes since they only have one destination, but this would be a nightmare on a train with many stops.


I am not sure how they do it . . . but it works. Even on international trains. You go to the ticket agent, and ask to make a seat reservation on a specific train. You can ask for a window seat, aisle seat, riding forward, riding backward, etc. If your requested seat is available for the entire trip, you get your seat reservation. If not, the ticket agent will let you know what is available. If a single seat is not available for the entire trip, then you will be told so. I don't think they would give reservations for two different seats for the same trip.

One on board the train, you go to the assigned car and seat, and claim your seat. If you do not have a reservation, and board a train with seat reservations, you walk through the train until you find an unoccupied seat. There is either a piece a paper, or an electronic sign, that indicates the points of the journey that the seat is occupied. You can ride in a seat that is reserved for a latter portion of the trip. When the person comes along, you just relinquish the seat. Sometimes, you can claim a seat that is reserved by a no show. If you seat that the train has just left the station from where the seat is reserved, and nobody is there, then you can take the seat.

In Europe, there does not seem to be this preoccupation with making sure families sit together at the expense of other travelers. I have never experienced purchasing a seat reservation, and then being asked to move so others can sit together. Of course, having paid 7 euros to get said seat, I don't think many would say yes in that scenario.


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## acelafan (Aug 26, 2010)

johnny said:


> PS: not all of us want assigned seats.


And that includes me. I want to be able to pick a seat in an Amfleet with an unobstructed view from the window. Several of the seats are physically set up such that you are looking at the frame of the car between windows and not out the window. It's a train; let me see outside! That issue, combined with some routes having 1/2 the seats facing backward like Alan said make me hope assigned seats do not come to pass. Although, assigned seats might make those selfish seat hogs who sleep across two seats on 66/67 sit upright, which I do like.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 26, 2010)

Just an historical note. On many if not most "name" long distance trains prior to Amtrak, seats were specifically assigned with the reservation. Your seat assignment was on your ticket.

It wasn't on all trains, and even on trains that had it, sometimes they dropped it. SP did that on the Sunset, I know.

However, it was done completely manually, with car charts in each railroad's central reservation office. That system remained for a little while after Amtrak started in 1971, when almost all services were initially provided by the contracting railroads in the way each RR was accustomed to doing it. It didn't last though, and by 1973, IIRC, they had pretty much gone to "open" seating on reserved seat trains.


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## me_little_me (Aug 26, 2010)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> How do European trains handle the problem of allowing people to pick seats? I mean, someone who buys a ticket late in the process would not be able to stay in the same seat. They might, theoretically, have to change seats with every stop!
> 
> The process works on planes since they only have one destination, but this would be a nightmare on a train with many stops.


Reservations must be made 24 hours in advance as I mentioned. Little cards marked the reserved seats. You are welcome to sit in any seat not reserved. Since the reservation charge is fairly small, there seemed to always be untaken reserved seats.


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## AlanB (Aug 26, 2010)

acelafan said:


> johnny said:
> 
> 
> > PS: not all of us want assigned seats.
> ...


You could pretty much tell from the diagram if you were booking a seat at the frame or not.


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## Exiled in Express (Aug 26, 2010)

Done correctly, seat reservations would be a welcome change. Done correctly would mean letting the entire train be available to all passengers. My one bad seating experience was on a CHI-MSP summer run and while the train was not sold out the staff was quite firm in making sure every seat in the 807 car was filled before allowing overflow. My seatmate was less than desirable, chewing the same piece of gum from boarding to at least MKE when I moved to camp out in the SSL, conductor was not interested in processing the on board upgrade.


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## Trogdor (Aug 26, 2010)

This topic comes up every few months or so.

People have already gone over the pros and cons pretty well in this thread.

I really don't think that many people care all that much about it. What we have seems to work just fine, so this is one of those "don't fix what ain't broke" situations.

Now, if there's a market for having seats assigned in advance as an extra fare, maybe there might be something to it, but Alan has pointed out each time this thread pops up, it didn't work too well on the Acela. Most of the rest of the trains already have business class without assigned seats, and few seem to complain about that.

Most threads prior to this one seemed to imply that everyone should be assigned a seat ahead of time. There are many problems with that, which have already been brought up (i.e. late-booking passengers may not be able to get one seat all the way through, and therefore would have to change seats mid-journey, possibly in the middle of the night - that's pretty much guaranteed to be more trouble than it's worth).

I have seen conductors and coach attendants move single travelers so that couples and families could sit together (in fact, I've had that happen to me at least twice that I can remember). That generally works well enough.

On long-distance trains, crews tend to like the flexibility of sorting out passengers by destination and assigning them to cars that way. Even some of the short-distance trains work that way. It allows dwell times to be shorter at some of the smaller station stops. If passengers chose their own seats, it would take longer to get everyone organized and at the correct door, or passengers would have to board the "wrong" car and then walk through the train dragging all of their luggage with them. While this does sometimes happen anyway, it's not a pretty sight.

As an anecdote, on the west coast they tend to assign seats prior to boarding (they do this on the Coast Starlight and on the Cascades service). Last year, I rode train 516 in business class from PDX to VAC. There's a long stop with a crew change in SEA. One of the other business class passengers riding through had a backwards-facing seat, and wanted to switch to a forward-facing seat in Seattle. She claims the previous conductor permitted her to do this. When the Seattle passengers boarded, a man was assigned to the seat to which the other passenger had just moved. He wanted her to give him the seat. The two started acting like three-year-old kids fighting over a toy.


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## AlanB (Aug 26, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> On long-distance trains, crews tend to like the flexibility of sorting out passengers by destination and assigning them to cars that way.


One additional advantage to this method is the fact that the crews try to keep all the passengers getting off in the middle of the night in the same car. This means far less disruption to the rest of the coach passenger who in theory should be able to sleep through the night because they aren't getting off during the night.

With people picking seats, you'd have people in every coach getting up in the middle of the night to collect their luggage and get off. That would disturb everyone, instead of a more select few.


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## railiner (Aug 26, 2010)

People....be careful of what you wish for!

The subject of assigned seats can open up an entirely new (for trains) can of worms....just look at what the airlines are doing thses days....determining that certain seats in coach section are more coveted for whatever reason, and then charging extra fees for them.

As they say..."Don't go there!"


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## gswager (Aug 27, 2010)

Are seat layout the same between Superliner I and II? And is the stairwell on one side of car could be on the left or right on the direction of travel?


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## Trogdor (Aug 27, 2010)

gswager said:


> Are seat layout the same between Superliner I and II? And is the stairwell on one side of car could be on the left or right on the direction of travel?


The upper-level seat layouts are the same (there may be some subtle differences about the relative placement of things, not sure).

You do bring up a good point, though, about how seats could be on a different side of the car depending on which way the car faces.


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## PaulM (Aug 27, 2010)

johnny said:


> because they haven't truly implemented electronic tickets, (although it is in the plan). Also, if you recall, not all stations are staffed and tickets can be bought on board. When those 2 things (and who knows what else) comes together, it might happen.
> 
> PS: not all of us want assigned seats.


In Europe you don't need to have an assigned seat. In fact, on most trains you won't get one unless you pay a nominal surcharge for a reservation. A reservation requires a ticket, but not the other way around.

When the train leave the first station, each seat back in an open coach or door of a compartment has little slots containing a paste board (slightly smaller than Amtrak seat checks) if the space has been reserved. The paste board contains the passenger's name and stations between which it has been reserved.

They don't have electronic ticketing (at least as of 2007 in Austria and Germany, the City-Nite-Line being a possible exception). I also believe you have to reserve space before the train leaves the first station. So in your scenario, the passenger just takes their chances. As you walk through the car looking for a place to sit, you check the reservation slot for a reservation. In fact, if the seat has been reserved for down the line, you can sit there until that station is reached.

Actually, regional (slow trains stopping at every station) don't have reservations.


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## spacecadet (Aug 27, 2010)

It seems kind of ridiculous that a first class passenger on Acela would have to run to get a decent seat. It just shouldn't happen.

I understand the problems that existed, but then Amtrak should be working to find solutions, not just throwing up their hands. I can't think of another modern train system that doesn't have at least some assigned seats.

Other people have been talking about Europe. Japan seems to work similarly; you buy a rail ticket and then separately you buy a reservation. You can ride a train without a reservation in a non-reserved car. Non-reserved cars are free-for-alls, and they're often standing room only with people standing all up and down the aisles.

In reserved cars, everybody has an assigned seat. The conductors have no specialized equipment, they just come and look at your ticket and match the seat your ticket says to the seat you're sitting in. I'm not really sure what's so complicated about that.

I understand that Acela FC seats are arranged in a way that some seats might be quite undesirable, but then maybe a reconfiguration of these cars is in order. Does anybody actually even like the facing seats? I've ridden in one of these with my wife and I didn't like it even traveling with somebody I was close to. I don't know why they don't just make these cars all front-facing 2+1 seating. Make it so rows can swivel and create facing seats if desired; this is how the shinkansen are.

I know LD trains have other issues, and some short distance trains have the problem of unpredictable consists (I'm just imagining somebody getting a ticket putting them in row 20 of what turns out to be a 60 seat Amfleet car), but I don't really understand why this is so difficult at least on Acela.


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## CHANGEATJAMAICA (Aug 27, 2010)

If there is any justification for seat selection/assignment one only need to transit (or worse board) NYP on any Acela first class car on trains operating BOS/WAS/BOS. To use the term "first class" with the free for all among boarding passesngers and their baggage, carried either by themselves or by a redcap following with or without his tow wheeler is absurd.

Back in the dark ages when I worked as an agent for one of America's premier domestic/international airline the only flights we boarded without seat selection/assignment were all coach "cattle cars" with the least expensive fares. With the rock bottom pricing the "customers" didn't really worry about where they sat.

Maybe Amtrak could create an additional revenue stream by taking a leaf from today's air "common" carriers and charge addtional fares for "select" first class and business class/coach class seats and cause the scrum to take place at BOS and WAS as well as NYP.

Best regards,

Rodger, who fortunately boards Acela first class at BOS and WAS and merely observes the scene at NYP.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

The problem is that user assigned seats are terribly inefficient since it is not an all or nothing affair like an airliner. To counter this inefficiency only a certain percentage of seats could be sold as assigned. This makes a class within a class and those seats have to be rationed either with elite status or an added fee. People grumble about fees and elite status with AGR is a joke.


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## jis (Aug 27, 2010)

Guest said:


> The problem is that user assigned seats are terribly inefficient since it is not an all or nothing affair like an airliner. To counter this inefficiency only a certain percentage of seats could be sold as assigned. This makes a class within a class and those seats have to be rationed either with elite status or an added fee. People grumble about fees and elite status with AGR is a joke.


I guess I don;t understand the point about "terribly inefficient", and "user assigned seats". What do you mean by "user assigned seats"?

In UK, you can get a reserved seat on almost any (non suburban) train, and they seem to do the "rationing" by not releasing all sets for reserved allocation, so each train has some significant number of unreserved seats too, and this seems to work just fine. And the reservation is free of charge at least the times I used it, most recently on train from Edinburgh to Inverness with a change at Stirling.

OTOH, on HSR like Eurostar or TGV or Thalys, reservation is obligatory, and you get an assigned seat. You can ask for and get a window seat with a real window (as opposed to a wall where the window should have been) if such is available. The computer has such information regarding each seat, sort of like Seatguru does for airlines. So on the whole there is no wild scramble for seats.

Actually I think the current system used in US works only because in general relatively speaking, so few people use trains. If trains were really used as massively as in other parts of the world, soon scenes like those that occur in India for getting a seat in a General Second Class car would ensue, and the system would be changed pronto.

I agree that AGR Select and Select+ is just good for getting free tickets. In everyday riding it does not give one any additional privileges like early boarding or seat selection, so in that sense it is significantly inferior to any major airline frequent flyer programs.


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## daveyb99 (Aug 27, 2010)

AMTRAK is just too cheap to buy the correct software to initiate reserved seats or actual sleepers.

We traveled in Italy via TrenItalia, and had reserved seats in both Coach and First.

When at the station buying tickets at a machine, we selected the seating style (side by side, across the table, etc) via a touch screen and Presto, assigned seats.

Other than those who board the wrong car (and thereby the wrong seat), worked perfectly fine.


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## Trogdor (Aug 27, 2010)

daveyb99 said:


> AMTRAK is just too cheap to buy the correct software to initiate reserved seats or actual sleepers.


What do you mean by "actual sleepers"? Last I checked, every overnight long-distance train had them, and (surprise, surprise!) they all are assigned in advance.

Amtrak already has the ability to assign reserved seats. As has been mentioned no less than twice in this thread (and at least once in every other reserved-seat thread), Amtrak tried implementing reserved seats, and it was the _revenue passengers_ (and high-revenue, first-class passengers at that) who essentially rejected the idea.

If it had worked, and passengers loved it, odds are you'd see assigned seating in a lot more places. But it didn't, and they didn't, so you don't.


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## amamba (Aug 27, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> I understand that Acela FC seats are arranged in a way that some seats might be quite undesirable, but then maybe a reconfiguration of these cars is in order. Does anybody actually even like the facing seats? I've ridden in one of these with my wife and I didn't like it even traveling with somebody I was close to. I don't know why they don't just make these cars all front-facing 2+1 seating. Make it so rows can swivel and create facing seats if desired; this is how the shinkansen are.


I really liked traveling in the facing seats (single seat then aisle with a table in the middle) when traveling with my husband. It was really nice because we could chat, eat, both use our laptops and still have room for a drink on the table, etc. The little tray table that comes out from the seat in front of you isn't big enough for my laptop (dell lattitude D630) and a drink, and that's a problem.

However, i actually prefer when I am traveling alone to have a forward facing seat without a facing seat across from me. The main reason is that I am very short (5 feet tall) and my feet don't really touch the ground all that great in an acela chair. I need the footrest on the chair in front of me to be comfortable for a decent time. It doesn't matter when I'm riding with H because I can kick him or put my feet up on him and it doesn't matter.

I did ride this way once with a stranger and it wasn't bad. He was cracking snide remarks/jokes and it was pretty funny (we had some service issues on that train). But obviously that would not be a first choice, but then again, I am torn because of the laptop/drink issue.

I would think that the group of four facing seats would also be lovely if I was traveling as a group.


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## spacecadet (Aug 27, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> Amtrak already has the ability to assign reserved seats. As has been mentioned no less than twice in this thread (and at least once in every other reserved-seat thread), Amtrak tried implementing reserved seats, and it was the _revenue passengers_ (and high-revenue, first-class passengers at that) who essentially rejected the idea.


Three points, one of which I already mentioned:

a) Then maybe Amtrak should be looking at why these passengers rejected the idea and solve those issues rather than doing away with a system that works in every other part of the world.

b) Amtrak should be looking to attract new customers to FC, not just please existing ones. They'd attract more new customers if they had assigned seats. I don't know how you can quantify how many non-riders look at Amtrak and are turned off by the fact that the seating arrangement is basically the same as riding the LIRR, but it certainly doesn't help.

c) Not reserving the FC car means the BC cars can't be reserved either (because it would be pretty dumb to reserve BC but not FC). And there's no reason why anyone should complain about their BC seating, since all the seats are the same. So these relatively few current FC customers are screwing things up for everybody else on the train.

The solution isn't to just ditch reserved seating, the solution is to fix the problems.


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## acelafan (Aug 27, 2010)

daveyb99 said:


> AMTRAK is just too cheap to buy the correct software to initiate reserved seats or actual sleepers.
> 
> We traveled in Italy via TrenItalia, and had reserved seats in both Coach and First.
> 
> ...


Italy has a very good system for selecting seats on the high speed trains; not sure about their older regional service though. I think assigned seats could (and should) work well on Acela but I just can't be convinced that assigned seats on the Amfleets via a seating chart would be accurate. Maybe each train has a relatively stable consist but it seems there is a hodge podge of Amfleet I and II out there on the NEC. When (if?) the coach equipment is truly standardized then assigned seats might work.

I don't get to ride Amtrak much due to my location. When I do ride I want to be able to have a good seat with a view.


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

From what I've seen first hand, the biggest impediment to assigned seating on Acela is the passengers themselves. Far too many don't want it!

Or at least they don't want it by "surprise", which is largely how it went down in the First Class car. Perhaps with lots of forewarning, like ads, press releases, and a notice that pops up for like 3 months every time you book an Acela that assigned seating is coming say January 1st, maybe the reaction would be different. But I'm far from certain about that.

Many business people simply don't care what seat they end up in. They're not interested in the scenery. They just want to go from A to B. So I just don't know how well assigned seating would go over with Acela's primary source of passengers.

And then it would probably take at least 2 or 3 months of extra staffing on board the Acela trains to actually enforce seat assignments, since there will always be people who don't bother to read the announcements or somehow think that it doesn't apply to them because their special.

So while I'm sure that Amtrak could do it, and the software already exists to do it, I'm just not sure that it's worth the costs of doing it along with quite possibly pissing off your most valued customers.


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> a) Then maybe Amtrak should be looking at why these passengers rejected the idea and solve those issues rather than doing away with a system that works in every other part of the world.


I already mentioned why the passengers rejected the idea. They were used to years of just sitting where ever they wanted on the old Metroliner service. Perhaps if Amtrak had done a better job of warning them that assigned seating was coming, it might have made some difference, as many were surprised to find out that their ticket even had a seat number assigned to it. But even then, I'm not sure that enough passengers actually want assigned seating. Far too many in my experience simply don't.

And back then there were no free upgrades; the only way you got into First was by paying. So these were Amtrak's most important & valuable customers revolting. Amtrak listened.



spacecadet said:


> b) Amtrak should be looking to attract new customers to FC, not just please existing ones. They'd attract more new customers if they had assigned seats. I don't know how you can quantify how many non-riders look at Amtrak and are turned off by the fact that the seating arrangement is basically the same as riding the LIRR, but it certainly doesn't help.


If Amtrak attracts any more customers to Acela FC they'll need to figure out how to buy a second FC car for each of the 20 consists. Attracting more passengers isn't necessary.



spacecadet said:


> c) Not reserving the FC car means the BC cars can't be reserved either (because it would be pretty dumb to reserve BC but not FC). And there's no reason why anyone should complain about their BC seating, since all the seats are the same. So these relatively few current FC customers are screwing things up for everybody else on the train.


All seats in BC are not the same. There are tables interspersed throughout the BC cars.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 27, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> c) Not reserving the FC car means the BC cars can't be reserved either (because it would be pretty dumb to reserve BC but not FC).


That's an interesting point. I understand what you are saying, but a contrasting example comes to mind.

Back when you were in school, which would be the better teacher or class? One where you could sit in any seat you wanted, or one where the teacher assigned you a specific seat?

Possibly, one could actually assign seats for those poor BC passengers, but FC passengers get the freedom to sit wherever they like!


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## PRR 60 (Aug 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> From what I've seen first hand, the biggest impediment to assigned seating on Acela is the passengers themselves. Far too many don't want it!
> 
> Or at least they don't want it by "surprise", which is largely how it went down in the First Class car. Perhaps with lots of forewarning, like ads, press releases, and a notice that pops up for like 3 months every time you book an Acela that assigned seating is coming say January 1st, maybe the reaction would be different. But I'm far from certain about that.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with your premise that business customers would be "pissed off" by assigned seating in Acela First Class. The only ones who might have an issue are those who board at Boston South, New York, or Washington, and go to an empty car and pick a seat. However, even in the case of Boston, a late arriving F pax might find the choice seats taken by Acela Club pax who bribed, er, I mean tipped a Red Cap to carry a newspaper to the train for early boarding. In Washington, if you do not early board from the Club Acela, you also are not likely to get a choice seat in First.

I've been on Acela and witnessed business travelers board at Baltimore, Providence, New Haven, etc. There were plenty of unhappy campers when they found no seating save for the backwards facing table seats, or when a pair who wanted to conduct some business en route had to split because all the paired seats were taken by singles sitting on the aisle. Just like air travel, last minute bookers have to take their chances with seats, but those who book a couple of weeks early should get the chance to pick seats. When I'm traveling, I'll browse all the flights that meet my schedule, and pick the one that works best. Available seats are a factor in my decision. In planes, no one wants the dreaded middle seat. On Acela, no one wants the stinky table seat bumping knees and playing footsie with a stranger across the way (depending, of course, who that stranger is).

Most business travelers are well aware of how seating assignments work. From my experience, most business travelers would appreciate assigned seating and would willingly abide by the requirements. Those who don't would just have to suck it up and get used to it. Amtrak, on the other hand, would also have to enforce it. Not having the guts to enforce a good policy is not a reason to ditch the policy.

I can say without hesitation that the absence of assigned seats in First Class means that Amtrak has lost at least some Acela First Class business - mine. There is no way that I would pay Acela First Class fares without knowing that my wife and I would be sitting together for the trip. If I book weeks or months in advance and pay $200 per person each way, I do not want to be subject to cattle call boarding and scrounging to find a pair of seats or even seats at all. This is 2010, not 1975.


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## Trogdor (Aug 27, 2010)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Back when you were in school, which would be the better teacher or class? One where you could sit in any seat you wanted, or one where the teacher assigned you a specific seat?
> 
> Possibly, one could actually assign seats for those poor BC passengers, but FC passengers get the freedom to sit wherever they like!


I'm not sure that comparing Acela passengers to schoolchildren is the most valid of comparisons.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 27, 2010)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> ...Possibly, one could actually assign seats for those poor BC passengers, but FC passengers get the freedom to sit wherever they like!


My point is that unless one boards at Boston South, New York Penn, or Washington, First Class passengers do not "_get the freedom to sit wherever they like_." They get to sit in whatever seats are left. These intermediate station passengers are treated as second class customers, paying comparable fares but often only getting a choice of lousy seats.

I can see why someone who normally boards in Boston or New York might not see a need for assigned seats (and might even resent allowing good seats for lesser-lights at intermediate stations). They have a great deal going for them. They can walk up to the ticket window, buy a ticket, and walk on the train and pick the best seat in the car. But try boarding in Philadelphia, Baltimore or Providence on a late afternoon train sometime. Seat selection stinks, and I have to believe that it is costing Amtrak business.


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## Dovecote (Aug 27, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> It seems kind of ridiculous that a first class passenger on Acela would have to run to get a decent seat. It just shouldn't happen.


This is a little off the subject but what the heck I will mention it anyway. What I find ridiculous, inexcusable, and just shouldn't happen is having a ticket for a lower level coach seat and upon entering the train finding out that all the lower level seats are occupied. This has happened to me on more than one occasion when taking the Capitol Limited eastbound from HFY to WAS. Somebody dropped the ball in which a passenger(s) used a seat that was specifically assigned to another passenger.


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## amamba (Aug 27, 2010)

I will reiterate that boarding the acela in PVD really, really blows. It is very difficult to find two seats together at all, in FC or BC. It is very frustrating to not be able to sit with a travel companion on a train like this. There must be some sort of solution to this problem. There is always a palpable nervousness on the platform as the train approaches and the pax on the platform peer in the windows, trying to scope out empty seats before they run to board. Not many people detrain in PVD when coming southbound on the acela, either, so its not like seats are being freed up that way.


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## jis (Aug 27, 2010)

amamba said:


> I will reiterate that boarding the acela in PVD really, really blows. It is very difficult to find two seats together at all, in FC or BC. It is very frustrating to not be able to sit with a travel companion on a train like this. There must be some sort of solution to this problem. There is always a palpable nervousness on the platform as the train approaches and the pax on the platform peer in the windows, trying to scope out empty seats before they run to board. Not many people detrain in PVD when coming southbound on the acela, either, so its not like seats are being freed up that way.


If you think PVD is bad, try Metropark. More often than not the only seat I find is in the Cafe until we get to New York or Philly.

I find the position of those that oppose assigned seat reservation completely illogical. But I suppose this is a free country and illogic is cheap. 

As I said, at some point enough people will start using trains maybe, when it will become a safety issue. I will not expect Amtrak to do anything until it starts costing them clearly and dearly. Of course with zero new equipment in sight for corridor service, there is no danger of too many people trying to use the service since fares can be adjusted to make sure that too many people don't as was done in the Gunn era while they were busy parking half the Amfleet fleet and cutting down NEC Regionals to 5 car consists.


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## Dovecote (Aug 27, 2010)

amamba said:


> I will reiterate that boarding the acela in PVD really, really blows. It is very difficult to find two seats together at all, in FC or BC. It is very frustrating to not be able to sit with a travel companion on a train like this. There must be some sort of solution to this problem. There is always a palpable nervousness on the platform as the train approaches and the pax on the platform peer in the windows, trying to scope out empty seats before they run to board. Not many people detrain in PVD when coming southbound on the acela, either, so its not like seats are being freed up that way.


Same situation in BAL. My niece attends school in Baltimore. When her parents visit her via Amtrak and travel back to NYP on Acela BC there is hardly a time when they can sit together. The best they can do is sometimes sit across from each other in aisle seats.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

Even if seats are reserved, it doesn't mean that you'll find two seats together at the time you make your reservation. In fact, you may not find any seats together and have to book single seats, only to find the seat next to you empty for the entire trip once you board the train.

The way people book, cancel, rebook, no-show, make multiple bookings for the same day on Acela, I don't think making seats reserved would result in an increase customer satisfaction.

The majority of these reservations are made within days of departure or day-off departure.


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

amamba said:


> Not many people detrain in PVD when coming southbound on the acela, either, so its not like seats are being freed up that way.


You should have been at the station on Friday the 16th in October of last year. You would have found plenty of seats in the first car as nearly 40 of your fellow AU members all jumped off after taking a quickie ride from South Station to PVD. :lol:

I think we even delayed the train slightly with so many people all exiting and from a single car.


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

Just for the record, I personally like picking my seats and was upset when it went away, not to mention those times when the attendants wouldn't force someone to give up my seat.

I'm just reporting my observations of why it went away.

And no matter what Amtrak does, there will always be people who don't like the solution. If they assign seats, there will be people booking at the last minute mad that they cannot get 2 seat or more together. If they do assign seats, there will be people mad that they couldn't get the one they wanted.


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## daveyb99 (Aug 27, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> daveyb99 said:
> 
> 
> > AMTRAK is just too cheap to buy the correct software to initiate reserved seats or actual sleepers.
> ...


Really? Sleepers on EVERY train? What will they think of next.

The point is a CUSTOMER DRIVEN reservation system to pick and choose seats or sleepers - Just Do It.


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## jis (Aug 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Just for the record, I personally like picking my seats and was upset when it went away, not to mention those times when the attendants wouldn't force someone to give up my seat.
> 
> I'm just reporting my observations of why it went away.
> 
> And no matter what Amtrak does, there will always be people who don't like the solution. If they assign seats, there will be people booking at the last minute mad that they cannot get 2 seat or more together. If they do assign seats, there will be people mad that they couldn't get the one they wanted.


I agree, and that is why Amtrak should do something that maximizes the number of people that it can make happy. And in general the solution used at present is not the one IMHO.

That is why where assigned seat reservation is available, also non reserved accommodation is available. Non-reserved accommodation may be capacity controlled by issuing tickets for a specific train and limiting how many are issued. Such is called reserved seats in US, whereas such are simply called ticket on a particular train with no reservation elsewhere.

Nobody is suggesting that all seats must be assigned. Such is done only on the most prestigious and fastest trains in the rest of the world. All other trains have some amount of non reserved accommodation. In Japan for example all Shinkansens, except the fastest Nozomis have some unreserved accommodation. Though Green (First) Class seats are all reserved and assigned.

In most places where a mix of reserved and non-reserved accommodation is available there is a cutoff point like 24 hours before departure when no further reservations are accepted, and all remaining seats are thrown into the non-reserved pool. OTOH, on fully reserved trains there are elaborate seat allocation and quota systems used to save up some seats to be sold at a higher price for late ticket buyers, and even quotas for enroute origination and destination (many are released for general pool or to RAC 24 hours before departure), elaborate waiting lists (WL) and reservation against cancellation (RAC) lists are maintained and administered quite effectively for example on the Indian Railways. And we are talking 24 car trains with 4 types of accommodation etc. so if there is a need all of that can be done.

With the current system Amtrak actually makes a promise that it cannot keep in crush load situation specially where monthly tickets are involved anyway. Whereas in a mixed reserved/non-reserved assigned seat situation, the folks who took the trouble and were able to get a reservation get the seat that is assigned to them. The folks who chose non-reserved get to take their chances just like now, they may get the seat that they want or they may not and they just suck it up and bear it. And somewhat automatically, seats with no-shows that are not used to fill from the waiting list automatically get released for some lucky unreserved guy. It is a relatively smooth self correcting mechanism that works in the rest of the world.

Someone getting mad because they did not get the seat that they want is infantile behavior and such should not be pandered to.


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## spacecadet (Aug 27, 2010)

jis said:


> Nobody is suggesting that all seats must be assigned.


Exactly. First class seating IMO should *always* be "assigned" (I put that in quotes because it implies someone is forcing a seat on you; I'm talking about being able to choose a seat in advance). You should never, ever have to worry about where you're going to sit when you board the train if you hold a first class ticket.

Business class or lower can be assigned or not. It would honestly not be that complicated even to have a mix of assigned and non-assigned seating in the same car, although to make things really simple they could just do what most railroads do and have reserved cars and non-reserved cars.

The Long Island Rail Road has assigned seating in some cars on their Cannonball trains - someone's going to tell me that the LIRR can do this and Amtrak can't? This is a system that just lost about 50% of its capacity for a week because a single cable on a circa-1913 switching system failed! They're hardly using cutting-edge technology.

It seems like some people are doing the same thing Amtrak did and assuming that because it didn't work the first time, the idea of assigned seating itself is flawed. I'm saying it was the execution that was flawed, not the idea; the idea itself is used successfully both on airlines around the world and on most other railroads both inside and outside this country. There's no reason Amtrak can't make it work, and as we've seen in this thread, there are plenty of people - including long-time riders - that want it to happen. And if you don't want assigned seating, well hey, there'd be nothing stopping you from using a non-reserved car. As a bonus, you'd save money, since seat reservations generally cost extra on most railroads (including the LIRR).


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## Trogdor (Aug 27, 2010)

daveyb99 said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > daveyb99 said:
> ...


You make a vague statement, I ask a question requesting clarification, and you respond with sarcasm.

You win.


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## amamba (Aug 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Not many people detrain in PVD when coming southbound on the acela, either, so its not like seats are being freed up that way.
> ...


Yeah, I was really bummed that I wasn't able to go to any of the gathering stuff! HUGE weekend at work and I couldn't get away  But I have been so jealous reading about the private car on the Downeaster, etc. Oh well....maybe some year


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> daveyb99 said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


And an erroneous statement at that, since Amtrak isn't too cheap to buy the software. They already own it! And it's already been battled tested for 6 months or so on Acela. Amtrak knows that it works.


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## NE933 (Aug 27, 2010)

There's something else to this issue as well, one that went away quietly about ten years ago.

Amtrak touted in what i believe was a press release about a contract with Motorola for ticket scanners that were to be used conductors who were exclusive to Acela equipment. How it was supposed to work was that he or she would hold the hand held device over the ticket's bar code or reservation number, and you'd be granted boarding; then the device would send a wireless signal onto one of small screens over each seat (look closely next time you ride and you'll see next to the spot lights are LCD screens that display a constant "Welcome" or something). These displays were to scroll your name and destination, and a backlight would flash so that the passenger was alerted where to go.

After word got out about the extra 4 inches of width and the truck hunting, nothing was ever said about the ticket scanners. The way it was worded convinced me that they were already purchased and were to be deployed soon after. Why it wasn't was never explained, and I guess Amtrak would seem to rather have it that way to minimize public anger with the Acela's mechanical woes and subsequent 2 yr. delay for launch.


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2010)

NE933 said:


> There's something else to this issue as well, one that went away quietly about ten years ago.
> 
> Amtrak touted in what i believe was a press release about a contract with Motorola for ticket scanners that were to be used conductors who were exclusive to Acela equipment. How it was supposed to work was that he or she would hold the hand held device over the ticket's bar code or reservation number, and you'd be granted boarding; then the device would send a wireless signal onto one of small screens over each seat (look closely next time you ride and you'll see next to the spot lights are LCD screens that display a constant "Welcome" or something). These displays were to scroll your name and destination, and a backlight would flash so that the passenger was alerted where to go.
> 
> After word got out about the extra 4 inches of width and the truck hunting, nothing was ever said about the ticket scanners. The way it was worded convinced me that they were already purchased and were to be deployed soon after. Why it wasn't was never explained, and I guess Amtrak would seem to rather have it that way to minimize public anger with the Acela's mechanical woes and subsequent 2 yr. delay for launch.


Yes, I covered this back on the first page in post #6, including why it went away. :lol:

By the way, the LCD's flash "empty".


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## NE933 (Aug 28, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Yes, I covered this back on the first page in post #6, including why it went away. :lol:


Wow, that was insightful. The obvious question, for me anyway, is with all the surveys and overdesigning Acela to the point of fights over which color to make the drapes, no one bothered to discover if assigned seating would work as a desired option? Or that the conductors would reject the portable scanners? Ya gotta dig into these things before making what was certain to be a million dollar purchase.


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## AlanB (Aug 28, 2010)

NE933 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I covered this back on the first page in post #6, including why it went away. :lol:
> ...


Well I suspect that had the software design gone well that Amtrak would have gone ahead and forced the other two issues, the conductors and assigned seating opposition. But without the software to make the entire thing run correctly, there was little point is forcing the other issues. Those issues just made it easier to cancel the entire project in all of its phases.

It would not surprise me however at all to find that once the E-ticketing program rolls out, that Amtrak reactivates the seat assignment software for Acela. The conductors will already be carrying today's much smaller PDA sized scanners, so that issue will be moot. And I'm certain that Amtrak would love to have the seat assignment and instant check-in system working so that they can resell no show space further up the lines and increase revenue.

In fact, one reason for some of the changes in refunds and just how long you can hold an unpaid reservation is because business people would book the 4, 5, & 6 PM Acela hedging their bets to have a seat when they were done that day. Then some would actually cancel the unused seats, while other's just didn't care at all, since no money was involved. And of course Amtrak couldn't resell that seat with no way of knowing that someone had no showed.

So now, most Acela reservations can only be held 24 hours at a minimum, without being paid for.

Returning to seat assignments and the onboard check-in would solve that problem from a resell point of view. Yes you couldn't resell the seat at DC for a train departing there, but by the time the train got to Baltimore, a seat for a no-show in DC would be back on the market.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2010)

daveyb99 said:


> Really? Sleepers on EVERY train? What will they think of next.


OK, Davey, help me out here. Could you name a LD train without any sleepers?



daveyb99 said:


> The point is a CUSTOMER DRIVEN reservation system to pick and choose seats or sleepers - Just Do It.


No, you are simply demanding a DAVEY DRIVEN reservation system. Even with just the small sampling I am reading here, there is NO clear, single, solution that will meet ALL customer's expectations and requirements.


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