# twice weekly canadian in winter?



## yarrow

i read in another thread that via is considering a twice weekly canadian in winter. anyone have any insight into whether this is possible fact or probable fiction?


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## NS VIA Fan

Yes, there's probably a good pretty good chance the Canadian, as well as the Ocean and Chaleur are going to see some changes and the Harper government has been floating trial balloons in the media to gauge public reaction.

Not the best situation……but in winter, if you can work your schedule around a tri-weekly Canadian…..you probably can for a twice-weekly one and it still maintains the mandate to serve isolated communities (barely).

>>>>>>>>>>

The Ocean has seen its passenger numbers drop considerably the past few years. There's just a lot of airline competition out of Halifax. A two hour flight to Toronto vs 24 on the train with a fare that's just as cheap or cheaper.......But Moncton and west still sees reasonable loads on the train.

CN also wants to abandon a portion of the Ocean's ICR route via Campbellton which might see it rerouted to the NTR through Edmundston which is CN's freight route to the Maritimes: shorter, fast and CTC all the way. (It hugs the US border of Maine's Aroostook County)

What might happen is the Ocean will operate 3 days a week on the NTR and the Chaleur will run the other 3 days on the ICR to Gaspe…..still maintaining the current 6 days a week service on the western end of the route. Some towns in New Brunswick will lose service but others which haven't seen a passenger train in 20 years will gain. 

Certainly not the best scenario…….but passenger usage is down on Ocean and the government is requiring VIA to trim its budget. The money is being spent on corridor improvements where people are riding trains.


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## jis

If VIA comes up with another sale I might consider going to Halifax and hanging out there for a long weekend again. I really came to like the place on my last visit.

BTW, I think it would be nice if VIA could round out the Corridor timetable a bit with more regular clockface once every two hours sort of service. However, that all depends on the demand I suppose.

Sorry to hear about what is likely to happen to the LD network. Considering how much carping goes on about the LD network. the US should consider itself lucky have a comparatively stable LD network at least for now.


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## NS VIA Fan

jis said:


> BTW, I think it would be nice if VIA could round out the Corridor timetable a bit with more regular clockface once every two hours sort of service. However, that all depends on the demand I suppose.


We're probably going to see an increase in speed and frequency in the Toronto – Ottawa/Montreal Corridor later this year when the miles of new triple tracking and several station project where island platforms are being installed is complete. 

 

http://www.viarail.c.../tracks-project

 

http://www.viarail.c...tations-project


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## The Davy Crockett

There is a news item at the "Trains' website where a spokesperson for CAW National Council 4000 (the union for about 2.000 VIA workers) says that



> "The cuts are coming."


 This spokesperson went on to say that they think VIA management has been told to wait to make the cuts until Parliament is not in session, to try and blunt criticism of Prime Minister Harper's government. 
The article quotes the MP for the Trinity-Spadina area, Olivia Chow:



> “It’s ironic that Canada, which was built on railways, is diminishing its passenger train service, Chow said. “It’s clean, it could be fast. If you look at what every other country in the world is doing they are increasing their train services. They are investing in electric trains, high speed, bullet trains; they are encouraging more people to get on trains. It’s fast, it’s precise, it’s clean and it can be cheap,”


Hmmm, sounds familiar down here south of the border.... :huh:

MP Chow went on to say...



> ...she expects one of three daily trains to London, via Kitchener and Stratford, and VIA’s daily train to Niagara Falls, to be eliminated.


The article makes it sound that the Canadian will be x2 weekly in slow season, and that the service between Montral and Halifax will also be impacted. 

Edit: Because I can! <_<


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## yarrow

i think the cut the canucks should make is stephen harper. "the canadian" is a symbol of canada known far and wide. to cut it seems penny wise(i know the canadians are getting rid of pennies) and pound (or loonie)foolish


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## Anderson

Ok, having taken one leg on the corridor and about to take another leg in half an hour so, I've twigged the problem that VIA is having with cost recovery and losses: The corridor trains are too (blank) short. Not that they could necessarily fill more cars, but I just don't see how you can get a four-car consist into the black no matter _what_ you do _(especially_ if one of those four is a dedicated cafe of some sort...right there you're down to two Economy Class cars and one Business Class car, which just isn't going to cut it)_._ Mind you, I'm hopeful that the $1 billion that Harper is putting into the Corridor will pay off (no pun intended) and they'll be able to put the trains up to 5-6 cars (which should close the gap noticeably), but it's _very_ hard to make anything work with trains that are so short.

One other note: It seems to be quite the pity that these cuts are coming when they are (Canadian revenue was up sharply last year), but I get the feeling (from looking over VIA's numbers) that the seasonality of that ridership has been getting rather extreme. Still, it's a pity that they can't maintain tthe services at this point.


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## AlanB

Did I miss a memo? Last I knew there was no cafe car on the corridor trains. Only a snack cart with limited items for sale. If you want anything more, then you need to be thinking Business Class.

Additionally, Ottawa is not the primary corridor. The major corridor is Montreal-Toronto, followed I believe by Montreal-Quebec City.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If this keep going on then VIA will actually end up only serving isolated communities. Just like Mexico! The only Mexican intercity pax route with reliable, regular service is the one through Copper Canyon. Nothing else!

I hope that VIA will not turn into a similar disaster! hboy:


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## NS VIA Fan

AlanB said:


> Did I miss a memo? Last I knew there was no cafe car on the corridor trains. Only a snack cart with limited items for sale. If you want anything more, then you need to be thinking Business Class.


In the corridor, if it's an LRC consists, it's all "revenue". There are no separate Cafe or Lounge LRC cars. They are either Coach or Business Class cars.

Same for HEP consists: Coaches and Business Class cars only. No Cafe or Lounge cars.

If it's a REN consist. There will also be a Service Car with a lounge area for Business Class passengers. 

You can find examples of all types of cars here:

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet


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## NS VIA Fan

AlanB said:


> Additionally, Ottawa is not the primary corridor. The major corridor is Montreal-Toronto, followed I believe by Montreal-Quebec City.


Several of the Montreal <>Toronto trains now run via Ottawa. Just stay on board during the brief stop in Ottawa then continue on.


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## Anderson

NS VIA Fan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, Ottawa is not the primary corridor. The major corridor is Montreal-Toronto, followed I believe by Montreal-Quebec City.
> 
> 
> 
> Several of the Montreal <>Toronto trains now run via Ottawa. Just stay on board during the brief stop in Ottawa then continue on.
Click to expand...

Both of my trains were this, so I was lumping the "direct" and the "via Ottawa" trains into the TWO-MTR corridor. Mind you, it's a bit like running a WAS-NYP train via HAR, but it does cover more of the province with service to the big cities.

My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, Ottawa is not the primary corridor. The major corridor is Montreal-Toronto, followed I believe by Montreal-Quebec City.
> 
> 
> 
> Several of the Montreal <>Toronto trains now run via Ottawa. Just stay on board during the brief stop in Ottawa then continue on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Both of my trains were this, so I was lumping the "direct" and the "via Ottawa" trains into the TWO-MTR corridor. Mind you, it's a bit like running a WAS-NYP train via HAR, but it does cover more of the province with service to the big cities.
> 
> My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?
Click to expand...

I heard that the equipment is hidden in the URL when you book online. Forgot the details.


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## AlanB

Anderson said:


> My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?


At one time it used to be easily found on the VIA site, but I don't see it anymore. However, if you go look at the baggage policies, located here, on the fourth page there is a table indicating how many bags you're allowed by train based upon the various VIA trains. The Rens only allow for 1 carryon, everything else must be checked. And the Table shows which trains are Rens. Everything else on the corridor is LRC and allows 2 carryons.


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## Swadian Hardcore

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?
> 
> 
> 
> At one time it used to be easily found on the VIA site, but I don't see it anymore. However, if you go look at the baggage policies, located here, on the fourth page there is a table indicating how many bags you're allowed by train based upon the various VIA trains. The Rens only allow for 1 carryon, everything else must be checked. And the Table shows which trains are Rens. Everything else on the corridor is LRC and allows 2 carryons.
Click to expand...

No more HEP cars on the Corridor?


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## Gord

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?
> 
> 
> 
> At one time it used to be easily found on the VIA site, but I don't see it anymore. However, if you go look at the baggage policies, located here, on the fourth page there is a table indicating how many bags you're allowed by train based upon the various VIA trains. The Rens only allow for 1 carryon, everything else must be checked. And the Table shows which trains are Rens. Everything else on the corridor is LRC and allows 2 carryons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No more HEP cars on the Corridor?
Click to expand...

Yes, Budd HEP's are still on some runs but interors are almost the same as LRC.


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## AlanB

Gord said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My trains were LRC (I think; it as amusing, having the BC car _still_ labeled "VIA 1"); is there any indication of where they use the LRCs vs. the Rens?
> 
> 
> 
> At one time it used to be easily found on the VIA site, but I don't see it anymore. However, if you go look at the baggage policies, located here, on the fourth page there is a table indicating how many bags you're allowed by train based upon the various VIA trains. The Rens only allow for 1 carryon, everything else must be checked. And the Table shows which trains are Rens. Everything else on the corridor is LRC and allows 2 carryons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No more HEP cars on the Corridor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, Budd HEP's are still on some runs but interors are almost the same as LRC.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you. I hadn't realized it until NSVIA put up his other topic, but I rode in an LRC VIA 1 car (now BC) a few years back and hated it. Didn't like the car and the crew wasn't exemplary either. However, I clearly just rode in a HEP VIA 1 (BC) car out of Ottawa yesterday. While I wasn't thrilled with the lack of power outlets at my seat, I had so much more leg room than in the LRC, far more comfortable seats than what I remember from the LRC car, plenty of luggage space (which I didn't need since I'd checked 2 of our bags thinking that I'd have no space in an LRC), and a great service crew. So great that I barely minded the fact that the AC kept failing and with temps around 30 Celcius, it did get a bit warm in the car but the Service Manager tried her best to keep resetting things and to keep the AC limping along to Toronto.


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## Bruce

Agreed about the Budd cars - lots more room - but last time I was in a Budd Via1 car Montréal-Toronto the suspension was much worse than the LRCs and a much more bumpy ride. That said, they have done a good job making the Via1 Budds look like LRCs inside


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## Swadian Hardcore

I heard some rumours that the Budd cars are getting retired. How many are left, and will they even get pulled off the Canadian?


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## zephyr17

When the Budd cars go, the Canadian goes.


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## Anderson

IIRC, VIA still has a bunch of Chateau sleepers on top of the Manor sleepers generally in use.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard some rumours that the Budd cars are getting retired. How many are left, and will they even get pulled off the Canadian?


Haven’t heard any rumors at all about the Budd fleet being retired. Most of the original cars from the CPR, about 150 including 69 Manor and Chateau Sleepers, 14 Parks and 15 Skylines are still in service and a lot have been renovated recently……. some even being rebuilt for the new Deluxe service to start next year on the Canadian.

VIA acquired additional Budd equipment from the US (some former Amtrak) around 1990 and rebuilt them with LRC like interiors for corridor service. (this was the HEP II program)

Here’s VIA’s Fleet info:

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet


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## NS VIA Fan

zephyr17 said:


> When the Budd cars go, the Canadian goes.


I know, Sacrilegious for a railfan……but recently after riding the Ocean then continuing on the Canadian, how I wished the option of a modern smooth riding Renaissance Sleeper was available on the Canadian compared to the shake, rattle, vibrate of that old Manor I was now in.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard some rumours that the Budd cars are getting retired. How many are left, and will they even get pulled off the Canadian?


I don't see that happening, I believe VIA spent quite a bit of money refurbishing a number of Budd cars just last year. I believe the Skyline, Parks, Manor Sleepers and Diners were included. The Chateau series cars however were not, I believe they are only used, on a regular bases, on the "Hudson Bay"...excuse me Winnipeg-Churchill train now, but will back on the "Chalaur" once the bridge work is completed. They are also used on the "Canadian" during peak travel times. So if any of the Budd cars were to be retired, it would most likely be the Chateau sleepers, as they have a large surplus. I believe VIA still owns all 29 originally purchased by the Canadian Pacific. The rumour also maybe about the corridor budd cars that VIA acquired from Amtrak back in the early 90s. As the Southern Ontario routes they were being used on have been cut back dramatically.

To answers your the question of how many are left.

Of the original Canadian Pacific order

40 of 42 Manor Sleepers (two were damage one in 1987 and 1998)

29 of 29 Chateau Sleepers

13 of 18 Diners

16 of 18 "Skyline Domes"

14 of 18 "Park cars"

I don't have an accurate account of the coaches or baggage car, but suffice to say a large number of original CP equipment remains.


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## jis

Wasn't one or two of the current Park cars actually obtained from D&RGW by VIA?


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## NS VIA Fan

jis said:


> Wasn't one or two of the current Park cars actually obtained from D&RGW by VIA?


No, all the current Parks are xCPR.

But you are correct. VIA did obtain xD&RGW xCZ cars I believe that were very similar to the Parks with the intention of rebuilding them during the HEP I program. This was around the time of the massive cuts in January 1990…….they would no longer be needed and were never rebuilt. I remember one of the cars was to have become “Jasper Park”


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## jis

Thanks _VIA Fan_. I have been hearing rumblings about escalating cost of keeping the ex-CPR fleet going. Is there any truth to that? The fact that their utilization rate has declined considerably, should make it easier to keep them going I should think.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the information, guys. At least I can rest assured that they won't get rid of the old stainless cars anytime soon, retaining the chance for me to ride them. I might find it very difficult to ride the expensive Canadian, but I'm thinking about riding the smaller Hudson Bay on the exclusive route to Churchill. Canada has a lot of amazing land trips, but I'm fearful that a lot of them will get cut.


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## DET63

Any chance the Canadians would ever consider ordering Superliner-type equipment for their long-haul trains?


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## NS VIA Fan

DET63 said:


> Any chance the Canadians would ever consider ordering Superliner-type equipment for their long-haul trains?


Yes it’s possible but highly unlikely with the current Harper Government. The Budd equipment is now nearly 60 years old but can probably last a few more years with the upgrading and care VIA takes with it.

Canada’s Bombardier owns the Superliner design and Amtrak’s Superliner II’s were assembled at the their plant in La Pocatiere, Quebec.

VIA did lease an Amtrak Superliner for 6 months back in the ‘80s to evaluate the equipment but it was decided to rebuild and HEP the xCPR Budd fleet instead.

Here’s the consist for VIA #3 the Panorama arriving Edmonton on Sept. 28/84 (on a portion of the route of today’s Canadian)

Amtrak 319 F40

Amtrak 31041 Superliner Coach-Baggage

Amtrak 34030 Superliner Coach

Amtrak 38025 Superliner Diner

Amtrak 32019 Superliner Sleeper

VIA 15301 Generator Car


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the Canadians would ever consider ordering Superliner-type equipment for their long-haul trains?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it’s possible but highly unlikely with the current Harper Government. The Budd equipment is now nearly 60 years old but can probably last a few more years with the upgrading and care VIA takes with it.
> 
> Canada’s Bombardier owns the Superliner design and Amtrak’s Superliner II’s were assembled at the their plant in La Pocatiere, Quebec.
> 
> VIA did lease an Amtrak Superliner for 6 months back in the ‘80s to evaluate the equipment but it was decided to rebuild and HEP the xCPR Budd fleet instead.
> 
> Here’s the consist for VIA #3 the Panorama arriving Edmonton on Sept. 28/84 (on a portion of the route of today’s Canadian)
> 
> Amtrak 319 F40
> 
> Amtrak 31041 Superliner Coach-Baggage
> 
> Amtrak 34030 Superliner Coach
> 
> Amtrak 38025 Superliner Diner
> 
> Amtrak 32019 Superliner Sleeper
> 
> VIA 15301 Generator Car
Click to expand...

Yes! I remember when they sent those cars North. At the time, they said it was also to see how they performed in the extreme cold....although thinking about it, Edmonton couldn't have been too much colder than North Dakota at times.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't one or two of the current Park cars actually obtained from D&RGW by VIA?
> 
> 
> 
> No, all the current Parks are xCPR.
> 
> But you are correct. VIA did obtain xD&RGW xCZ cars I believe that were very similar to the Parks with the intention of rebuilding them during the HEP I program. This was around the time of the massive cuts in January 1990…….they would no longer be needed and were never rebuilt. I remember one of the cars was to have become “Jasper Park”
Click to expand...

What happened to them? Scrapped?



NS VIA Fan said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the Canadians would ever consider ordering Superliner-type equipment for their long-haul trains?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it’s possible but highly unlikely with the current Harper Government. The Budd equipment is now nearly 60 years old but can probably last a few more years with the upgrading and care VIA takes with it.
> 
> Canada’s Bombardier owns the Superliner design and Amtrak’s Superliner II’s were assembled at the their plant in La Pocatiere, Quebec.
> 
> VIA did lease an Amtrak Superliner for 6 months back in the ‘80s to evaluate the equipment but it was decided to rebuild and HEP the xCPR Budd fleet instead.
> 
> Here’s the consist for VIA #3 the Panorama arriving Edmonton on Sept. 28/84 (on a portion of the route of today’s Canadian)
> 
> Amtrak 319 F40
> 
> Amtrak 31041 Superliner Coach-Baggage
> 
> Amtrak 34030 Superliner Coach
> 
> Amtrak 38025 Superliner Diner
> 
> Amtrak 32019 Superliner Sleeper
> 
> VIA 15301 Generator Car
Click to expand...

I was too small to remember anything like that. What's the Panorama, is it another name for the Super Continental?


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## zephyr17

NS VIA Fan said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the Canadians would ever consider ordering Superliner-type equipment for their long-haul trains?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it’s possible but highly unlikely with the current Harper Government. The Budd equipment is now nearly 60 years old but can probably last a few more years with the upgrading and care VIA takes with it.
> 
> Canada’s Bombardier owns the Superliner design and Amtrak’s Superliner II’s were assembled at the their plant in La Pocatiere, Quebec.
> 
> VIA did lease an Amtrak Superliner for 6 months back in the ‘80s to evaluate the equipment but it was decided to rebuild and HEP the xCPR Budd fleet instead.
> 
> Here’s the consist for VIA #3 the Panorama arriving Edmonton on Sept. 28/84 (on a portion of the route of today’s Canadian)
> 
> Amtrak 319 F40
> 
> Amtrak 31041 Superliner Coach-Baggage
> 
> Amtrak 34030 Superliner Coach
> 
> Amtrak 38025 Superliner Diner
> 
> Amtrak 32019 Superliner Sleeper
> 
> VIA 15301 Generator Car
Click to expand...

Yeah, they were considering piggybacking on the Amtrak Superliner II order.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> ..........What's the Panorama, is it another name for the Super Continental?


A little history:

Back in the 1960’s.....the Panorama was CN’s slower running mate to the Super Continental. Basically two transcontinental trains per day each way across the country on CN. (CP had two trains also each way....the Canadian and the Dominion)

By the time that VIA was launched the Panorama had been discontinued. Then in November 1981 even the Super Continental was discontinued. There was now no through passenger service between Winnipeg and Vancouver......the route VIA’s Canadian uses today. (The Canadian was then using the original CPR route through Calgary and Banff)

On June 3, 1984 the new “Panorama” was introduced between Winnipeg and Edmonton (but still not thru to Vancouver)......returning passenger service to the CN line via Melville and replacing a daytime coach only train via Regina and Saskatoon . It also replaced the Skeena between Edmonton and Prince Rupert......Basically a through Winnipeg to Prince Rupert train (tri-weekly west of Edmonton)

On June 1, 1985 the Super Continental was relaunched. Replacing the Panorama between Winnipeg and Jasper and was extended through to Vancouver. Returning passenger service to the CN line between Red Pass Jct. (Jasper) and Vancouver for the first time since Nov. 1981. The Skeena name returned as a through Edmonton to Prince Rupert train which was attached to the Super Continental between Edmonton and Jasper tri-weekly.

The Canadian replaced the Super Continental on the CN route in January 1990.....the route it still follows today.


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## railiner

Thanks for the 'history lesson'!

IIRC, back in the steam days, the CN, (or was it the Grand Trunk back then?), called their premier train, the Continental Limited. I suppose when it went streamliner, they took a page out of Santa Fe's book, with the 'Super' moniker.......


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..........What's the Panorama, is it another name for the Super Continental?
> 
> 
> 
> A little history:
> 
> Back in the 1960’s.....the Panorama was CN’s slower running mate to the Super Continental. Basically two transcontinental trains per day each way across the country on CN. (CP had two trains also each way....the Canadian and the Dominion)
> 
> By the time that VIA was launched the Panorama had been discontinued. Then in November 1981 even the Super Continental was discontinued. There was now no through passenger service between Winnipeg and Vancouver......the route VIA’s Canadian uses today. (The Canadian was then using the original CPR route through Calgary and Banff)
> 
> On June 3, 1984 the new “Panorama” was introduced between Winnipeg and Edmonton (but still not thru to Vancouver)......returning passenger service to the CN line via Melville and replacing a daytime coach only train via Regina and Saskatoon . It also replaced the Skeena between Edmonton and Prince Rupert......Basically a through Winnipeg to Prince Rupert train (tri-weekly west of Edmonton)
> 
> On June 1, 1985 the Super Continental was relaunched. Replacing the Panorama between Winnipeg and Jasper and was extended through to Vancouver. Returning passenger service to the CN line between Red Pass Jct. (Jasper) and Vancouver for the first time since Nov. 1981. The Skeena name returned as a through Edmonton to Prince Rupert train which was attached to the Super Continental between Edmonton and Jasper tri-weekly.
> 
> The Canadian replaced the Super Continental on the CN route in January 1990.....the route it still follows today.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the infomation. Why was there no through service Winnipeg-Vancouver 1981-1985? I though the Canadian ran through Winnipeg as well.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> .................Then in November 1981 even the Super Continental was discontinued. There was now no through passenger service between Winnipeg and Vancouver......the route VIA’s Canadian uses today. (The Canadian was then using the original CPR route through Calgary and Banff)
> 
> The Canadian replaced the Super Continental on the CN route in January 1990.....the route it still follows today.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the infomation. Why was there no through service Winnipeg-Vancouver 1981-1985? I though the Canadian ran through Winnipeg as well.
Click to expand...

Yes there was through service between Winnipeg and Vancouver. As I said above.......the Canadian was then using the original CPR route through Calgary and Banff......... Just not on the route VIA's Canadian uses today which is the CNR route (Super Continental) through Edmonton and Jasper.


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