# Amtrak Long Distance Train Awards Vs Airline Awards



## jmbgeg (Oct 23, 2010)

This topic may have been asked and answered on AU, but I have not seen it discussed during my time on the board. Amtrak treats each zone transfer using award like a standalone trip, so you may have a one, two or three zone award based upon geographical characteristics (generally the distance) of the awards. Airlines distinguish awards by class of service (and sometimes peak or off peak), not distance.

By way of illustration, for an Amtrak award SPK to LAX; it's a one zone award (through the train travel time is longer than SPK-CHI); SPK-CHI is a two zone award; and SPK-WAS is a three zone award. For an airline award, it just matters whether I fly coach or first class. Whether there are connecting flights does not affect the mile deduction.

In a perfect world, Amtrak could have one award point level for domestic long distance trips in coach, roomettes and bedrooms, like the airlines. At a minimum, perhaps the second and third zones could have a material drop off in point requirements. Everything has fiscal impacts, and that is the obstacle to an airline-like point schedule. I would be interested in others' comments on this disconnect.

I was just up on the Continental website and see that they have something called a stopover award. This is something I have argued for in the past for AGR.

_Stopover Rewards_

_Stopover Rewards allow you to take a scheduled break in travel on the route between your point of origin and your destination city (e.g., a stopover in Houston on a flight from Los Angeles to Newark)._

_ _

_Stopover Reward travel is valid within or between the 48 contiguous United States, Alaska and Canada._

_Point-of-origin and destination cities may not be used as en-route stopovers._

_Generally, stopovers are allowed only along the most direct route of travel._


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## the_traveler (Oct 23, 2010)

jmbgeg said:


> At a minimum, perhaps the second and third zones could have a material drop off in point requirements.


I agree with what you are saying! Your statement above is only partially correct.

Using a roomette award as an example, there is a material drop off in the point requirements for a 2 zone award vs a 1 zone award (20K vs 15K). However, a 3 zone award is basically a 2 zone award plus a 1 zone award (20K + 15K = 35K). I would like it to be lower!


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## Ispolkom (Oct 23, 2010)

I'm convinced that very little thought went into the long-distance component of AGR. The program has always been strongly focused on the NEC, and even the zone map shows a strong east-coast bias. It treats the distance between New York City and Chicago as equivalent to the distance between Chicago and Los Angeles, when the actual distance is twice as long. It's like Saul Steinberg's "View of the World from 9th Avenue."

I'd love it if stop-overs were allowed, especially when transferring between western trains in Chicago. One rate for a sleeper reward regardless of the distance doesn't seem fair, unless you allowed capacity controls, which I would hate.

In any case, I don't imagine that AGR really cares enough about long-distance redemptions to bother to make any changes, except to eliminate abuses like loophole trips.

Have changes been made to long-distance redemptions since AGR was founded?


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## jmbgeg (Oct 23, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> > At a minimum, perhaps the second and third zones could have a material drop off in point requirements.
> ...


Clarification accepted. For bedrooms, one zone is 20,000; two is 30,000 (50% discount for the second zone); and three zones is 50,000. The third zone is back at 20,000. Logic would seem to say that the three zone should be +10,000 points like the second, for a total of 40,000; not 50,000. Using airline protocol, the one, two or three zone awards would be 20,000 total.

It is especially debatable when there is not a change of trains zone to zone (e.g. the Builder Seattle to Chicago). Notwithstanding that fact, airlines don't have higher point levels for awards with connecting flights. Airlines burn fuel just like Amtrak commensurate with the distance traveled, but they don't increase the point total required for longer domestic awards. They incur other costs like landing fes when there are connecting flights.

Maybe ACAC members or Amtrak employees who read this board will take this idea back to Amtrak (hint), but I would not bet a paycheck (or a meal) on near term adoption. Even modest progress towards the airline model would be nice.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2010)

Airlines have different levels for different distances just like AGR, but it is on international routes. Amtrak barely goes into Canada much less any worldwide service so they just cut up where they do operate into smaller pieces and require smaller amounts of points. AGR is still cheaper by points to go round trip coast to coast than the airlines. Airlines want 25K and AGR wants 22K for coach and AGR is a much better deal for upper classes.


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## jmbgeg (Oct 23, 2010)

Guest said:


> Airlines have different levels for different distances just like AGR, but it is on international routes. Amtrak barely goes into Canada much less any worldwide service so they just cut up where they do operate into smaller pieces and require smaller amounts of points. AGR is still cheaper by points to go round trip coast to coast than the airlines. Airlines want 25K and AGR wants 22K for coach and AGR is a much better deal for upper classes.


Clearly when airlines has a single level domestic award level for coach and another for first class it is a blended formula for short and long trips. If the one zone AGR award level went up and the two and three zone awards came down for a blended one level any zones award by each class of service (coach, roomettes and bedrooms) would AGR members like that or not. I would have to think about that personally. I like my one zone trips. But I would take more two and three zone trips if bedrooms were not 30k and 50k.


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## abcnews (Oct 24, 2010)

I actually love the Amtrak Award levels as they are... I consider them to be very generous, and much prefer them to the airline awards. Keep in mind, that if you do need a 3rd zone, you can often purchase a ticket for the shortest route - in either the departing zone (of a 3 zone trip), or else in the destination zone of a 3 zone trip. So if you want a full coast to coast trip (50,000 for a BR) then use the 50,000 points, because you are using the maximum that Amtrak has to offer, and likewise, it should cost something...

A coast to coast trip is typically 4 days on a train, with very nice meals included (3 per day) for up to 3 people, plus a private bathroom and shower- and the bedroom for 4 days and 3 nights. A great way to see America. A free coast to coast coach ticket on a jet is about 5 or 6 hours, longer if you connect from your local Airport. But sells for about $200 or so - depending on advance purchase, etc...

I wish I had discovered AGR sooner. I really like the program, and look forward to many future Amtrak trips. I plan to transfer every single mile from our several AMEX Membership Rewards accounts, as well as every Continental Airlines point we acquire.

To me - The only thing that the Airline program can offer to compare to an AGR BR /Roomette Rewards is First Class travel - especially to Europe, etc.... And that will really suck up your points. It takes lots of points to get two First Class tickets for Overseas travel. Even domestic is costly in points.


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## abcnews (Oct 24, 2010)

jmbgeg said:


> I was just up on the Continental website and see that they have something called a stopover award. This is something I have argued for in the past for AGR.
> 
> _Stopover Rewards_
> 
> ...


Amtrak already offers this - if you are traveling on a 3 zone award, you can simply use 20,000 (or 30,000 for BR) for a two zone award (not 3 zone), and layover a night or two in Santa Fe, or Albuquerque, or Denver (nice) see Boulder, the Rockies, skiing, etc... or maybe in or near Wolf Point MT. Then use 15,000 award (or 20,000 for BR), to continue on to your destination. On Continental the stopover is also allowed in Houston, or where they have you changing planes. So really - that already exists on AGR.

It's my understanding with Continental that you can only do this in a city in which they already had you changing planes. You can't just pick a location.


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## the_traveler (Oct 25, 2010)

abcnews said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> > _Stopover Rewards_
> ...


True, you _could_ use this to stop over in DEN, but not to stopover in SLC, RNO or SAC! And you _could_ stopover in ABQ, but not FLG or LAX!




(At least not without redeeming a 3 zone award - and another 1 zone award!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2010)

jmbgeg said:


> Airlines distinguish awards by class of service (and sometimes peak or off peak), not distance. ... Whether there are connecting flights does not affect the mile deduction.


Actually airlines *do* distinguish between distance and connections once you move beyond domestic flights. If you don't believe me just look up the rules at your favorite carrier. Are you sure you really want to bring that sort of complexity to Amtrak as well? My guess is that the we'd lose far more than we'd gain.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2010)

jmbgeg said:


> By way of illustration, for an Amtrak award SPK to LAX; it's a one zone award (through the train travel time is longer than SPK-CHI); SPK-CHI is a two zone award; and SPK-WAS is a three zone award. For an airline award, it just matters whether I fly coach or first class. Whether there are connecting flights does not affect the mile deduction.


Airlines actually have mind-bogglingly complex zone based award rules when you take a look at their entire route structure, and even more convoluted ones when one adds in their alliane, e.g. Star Alliance for Continental or United. I think Amtrak would be well advised to stay away from such.

Ginve that Amtrak's antire route structure is more or less contained in the lower 48 of the US, I think they have got the zonal structure just about right.



> I was just up on the Continental website and see that they have something called a stopover award. This is something I have argued for in the past for AGR.
> 
> _Stopover Rewards_
> 
> ...


Actaully what I find even more useful are th round trip open jaw awards, again specially in international sectors, which allows you to arrive at one place and depart on the return journey from another place. but, since Amtrak does not have RT awards, this feature is of little relevance, as is also the various stopover and move in single direction rules of the Round The World awards in the alliances.


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## the_traveler (Oct 25, 2010)

jis said:


> Round The World awards in the alliances


I want to go Round the World on Amtrak!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 26, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Round The World awards in the alliances
> ...


Well, let me know when you find the rate for such a ticket! If it's more than SQ charges (approx $7,000 in First) then I'll pass. :lol:


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