# Covid Mask Mandate for Transportation



## merkelman06

Was set to expire on May 11 now extended to September 13.






TSA extends face mask requirement at airports and throughout the transportation network | Transportation Security Administration


WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is extending the face mask requirement for individuals across all transportation networks throughout the United States, including at airports, onboard commercial aircraft, on over-the-road buses, and on commuter bus and rail systems...




www.tsa.gov





*Moderator note*: Discussion about the practical aspects of the Amtrak mask mandate (such as implementation and on board enforcement) can be done here. Other discussion regarding the mask mandate is welcome in this thread.


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## PaTrainFan

This is disappointing. While I fully understand the efficacy of mask wearing I hate to do it because I have yet to figure how to wear one without steaming up my glasses, which is one reason I don't put myself into situations where I need to wear one for any length of time. But, there's still roomettes, when available.


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## Bob Dylan

merkelman06 said:


> Was set to expire on May 11 now extended to September 13.
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> TSA extends face mask requirement at airports and throughout the transportation network | Transportation Security Administration
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is extending the face mask requirement for individuals across all transportation networks throughout the United States, including at airports, onboard commercial aircraft, on over-the-road buses, and on commuter bus and rail systems...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tsa.gov


Good News, theres still too many Morons and Typhoid Mary's running around this Country, and with Transportation, including Amtrak, going to 100% occupancy Soon, this makes perfect sense!


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## jebr

PaTrainFan said:


> This is disappointing. While I fully understand the efficacy of mask wearing I hate to do it because I have yet to figure how to wear one without steaming up my glasses, which is one reason I don't put myself into situations where I need to wear one for any length of time. But, there's still roomettes, when available.



The best thing I've found is to get one with a good nosewire. There were some ones I got for free from T-Mobile a while back that work quite well, and the Powecom KN95s I bought do a decent job as well. The other plus I've found with the KN95s is that the tent in the middle makes it a lot more comfortable to talk. I've ordered some KF94s to see how well those work (since there's some with much less boring designs) but I'm hopeful those will work good as well.


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## PaTrainFan

jebr said:


> The best thing I've found is to get one with a good nosewire. There were some ones I got for free from T-Mobile a while back that work quite well, and the Powecom KN95s I bought do a decent job as well. The other plus I've found with the KN95s is that the tent in the middle makes it a lot more comfortable to talk. I've ordered some KF94s to see how well those work (since there's some with much less boring designs) but I'm hopeful those will work good as well.



Thank you. I may have to "invest" in something new as this drags on.


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## SarahZ

The nose wire is pretty much essential, no matter what kind of mask you have. If I know I'm going to wear my glasses, I put the mask just a touch higher on my nose, form the nose wire around the bridge of my nose, and then rest my glasses on top. I haven't had any issues since.

You can retrofit your current cloth masks pretty cheaply. Go to any craft store and look for "floral wire". Snip a tiny piece, glue it to the inside of your mask where your nose is (or sew it in, if you're so inclined), and voila - nose wire.


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## amtrakpass

Have had both doses of the Pfizer vaccine myself and I think it is unfortunate that mask use is still required for mainly unscientific feel good optics in my opinion. For a few hour corridor trip I don't mind so much but for a long distance trip or especially an overnight long distance coach trip it would be the deciding factor in me not taking the train and I suspect it would play a part in many potential passengers decisions not to book a trip as well


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## Bob Dylan

amtrakpass said:


> Have had both doses of the Pfizer vaccine myself and I think it is unfortunate that mask use is still required for mainly unscientific feel good optics in my opinion. For a few hour corridor trip I don't mind so much but for a long distance trip or especially an overnight long distance coach trip it would be the deciding factor in me not taking the train and I suspect it would play a part in many potential passengers decisions not to book a trip as well


Too each their own, but a Large Majority of Travelers dont want to be close to Strangers inside of places or on means of Transportation!

You're not wearing a Mask for you, you're doing it for others!
Stay home and stay Safe! if you cant wear a Face Covering!


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## PVD

Since we don't have definitive data showing that vaccinated people can't carry and spread the virus, it makes sense to continue use indoors, and in crowded places. Preliminary data seems encouraging on that point, but I can't see any reason to rush it. Also, for those with issues with earloop style masks, there are many places that sell inexpensive bands that go behind the head, and may be very helpful.


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## amtrakpass

I respect your guys opinion but I think the mask mandates need to come to an end for long distance coach travel to rebound and some of the reason for vaccine hesitancy is a false caution of continuing restrictions for vaccinated people when vaccines work.


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## TrackWalker

Nose guard, smose guard. Simply wear the mask (cloth or otherwise) a little higher and place the lowest part of your glasses over the upper part of the mask.

No nose wire required. No more fogging up. It's very fashionable, too.


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## Devil's Advocate

amtrakpass said:


> Have had both doses of the Pfizer vaccine myself and I think it is unfortunate that mask use is still required for mainly unscientific feel good optics in my opinion.


The most likely reason the mandate remains is because not enough Americans have been vaccinated to achieve herd immunity and there's no currently practical way to ensure only vaccinated people are removing their masks.



amtrakpass said:


> I think the mask mandates need to come to an end for long distance coach travel to rebound and some of the reason for vaccine hesitancy is a false caution of continuing restrictions for vaccinated people when vaccines work.


Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be an agreement that reaching 70% inoculation suspends mask mandates?


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## tim49424

amtrakpass said:


> I respect your guys opinion but I think the mask mandates need to come to an end for long distance coach travel to rebound and some of the reason for vaccine hesitancy is a false caution of continuing restrictions for vaccinated people when vaccines work.



Fact is, because the vaccination rates are still too low for herd immunity, it's a good idea to wear them, even if you've been vaccinated yourself. The efficacy of the vaccines themselves isn't 100% anyway so a vaccinated person can still contract the disease....it just makes it less likely. Wearing the masks still is an added weapon in the fight against this and whenever it's determined that we've reached the herd immunity, then it'll truly be safe for those who have been vaccinated to take them off permanently. Also, there are variants of the virus spreading out there and the CDC isn't sure if the current vaccines are effective against them. Play nice and you'll get nice things, I like to say regarding these restrictions. Don't play and it'll delay the restoration to pre-pandemic conditions.


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## John Santos

Devil's Advocate said:


> [...]
> Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be an agreement that reaching 70% inoculation suspends mask mandates?



The criterion should be the current number of active cases, not the percent vaccinated. When the % is sufficient to bring about herd immunity, the number of active cases will plummet. But it is hard to estimate exactly what that percentage is, and it takes several weeks for your immune system to get fully activated by the vaccine. If the number of cases crashes after 65%, then we are at herd immunity a little earlier than expected. But if we've reached 70% and the case rate is still high, we should continue masking and social distancing; maybe we actually need 75% or 80% to achieve herd immunity and it would be tragic to stop too soon. But it should be pretty obvious when this happens.

Also, note the number of cases and the number of deaths is still far above what it was during last summer's lull. Here in Massachusetts, which has the 3rd highest vaccination rate in the country, we are still in the early November levels, which was near but not at the beginning of the surge, and already way above the summer lull. We need to get well below that level. But I don't think it will take an enormously long time to get there. I hope!


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## Cal

TrackWalker said:


> Nose guard, smose guard. Simply wear the mask (cloth or otherwise) a little higher and place the lowest part of your glasses over the upper part of the mask.
> 
> No nose wire required. No more fogging up. It's very fashionable, too.
> View attachment 22104


Nice mask!


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## IndyLions

For a lot of unvaccinated people - their attitude is “why bother to get vaccinated - they are still going to make me wear a mask everywhere I go - so what’s the point?”

So I do think these date-based mandates that are endlessly renewed are having a negative impact on motivating some people to get vaccinated. The first 50% of the population was easy. They (me) were going to get vaccinated regardless - they didn’t need motivation.

But at this point, anyone who wants a shot can get one - and weekly vaccination totals are dropping. Not good.

It is true there are a wide variety of reasons why people are not getting vaccinated. For some it’s difficult to get to the vaccination location. For others, it’s a complete mistrust of authority, or a fear for their immigration status. And for others they just don’t believe that these restrictions are ever going to end - so they see no point in getting the shot.

So in part to motivate that last group, I’d much prefer that we don’t just blindly extend these dates – but instead announce that when 75% of the population has been vaccinated, then all federal mandates and travel restrictions will be dropped. Period. They may have hinted that in the past, but it needs to be made crystal clear.

I think that’s smarter anyway. It largely takes politics out of it, and creates a simple target with one metric that needs to be hit.


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## amtrakpass

Well, my main hope is we all can come to some common ground as soon as possible and take the politics out of the restrictions and this is coming from someone who lives in a major city, knows the disease is very serious and real and voted for Biden. The idea of vaccines and social restrictions is to lessen death and mass casualites, not to remove 100% of disease or illness. If it were we would not be human beings at least since the fall in the Garden of eden. To keep it tied to Amtrak there are lot more people than we might realize who now are more afraid of crowds or travel or seeing there friends and co-workers than they should be or that any scientific data would call for. Not seeing other people and not participating in public society have very serious long term physical and mental health consequences themselves and especially after having been vaccinated, in my opinion leadership in all forms from business to politics should be encouraging people to resume public life, and stop wearing masks once they have been vaccinated. For myself I have had to go in the office 5 days a week the whole pandemic,been tested twice a week, worn a mask when needed and now been vaccinated. But with that I have also continued to take public transit and go out to eat etc... and participate in life. Anyway I am sure we all have the same goals here, just different perspectives and I hope even if we disagree on the particulars we can look forward to a day soon when there is healthy Amtrak ridership, crowded trains, and people traveling for all reasons, whether for the fun of it or just to get where they need to go.


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## tim49424

amtrakpass said:


> in my opinion leadership in all forms from business to politics should be encouraging people to resume public life, and stop wearing masks once they have been vaccinated. For myself I have had to go in the office 5 days a week the whole pandemic,been tested twice a week, worn a mask when needed and now been vaccinated.



Yep, rip off the masks and see the number of infected people rise again. Let's get to herd immunity, then this option is reasonable and logic.

I'm just curious about something. What's so bad about wearing a simple cloth over your mouth and nose? There are so many good things that happen doing this, but what are you losing when you wear one?


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## AmtrakBlue

tim49424 said:


> Yep, rip off the masks and see the number of infected people rise again. Let's get to herd immunity, then this option is reasonable and logic.
> 
> I'm just curious about something. What's so bad about wearing a simple cloth over your mouth and nose? There are so many good things that happen doing this, but what are you losing when you wear one?


Well, there are those who are hard of hearing or deaf and lipread and even if the HoH don't lipread, it's still hard for us to hear though masks. Having said that...I'm all for continuing wearing masks when out in public.


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## SarahZ

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, there are those who are hard of hearing or deaf and lipread and even if the HoH don't lipread, it's still hard for us to hear though masks. Having said that...I'm all for continuing wearing masks when out in public.


And in my case, it makes my asthma much worse because of the hot, humid air I’m breathing in.

I cannot wait until they are no longer mandatory.


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## SarahZ

TrackWalker said:


> Nose guard, smose guard. Simply wear the mask (cloth or otherwise) a little higher and place the lowest part of your glasses over the upper part of the mask.
> 
> No nose wire required. No more fogging up. It's very fashionable, too.


I tried that, but my mask kept slipping. 

I use that as a short-term thing when in the drive-thru and other places where I'm only going to have my mask on for a minute or two. If I'm going somewhere for a longer period of time, though, I have to have the grippy wire.

Maybe I just have a weird face.


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## neroden

I can't tell the difference, when I'm looking at an unmasked stranger, between someone who's vaccinated, and an unvaccinated, infected anti-vax plague-spreader who is lying about being vaccinated.

It is not safe to travel unless there is a mask mandate.

The vaccines are very good, but with a 1/1000 chance of still catching Covid-19 -- higher for my immunosuppressed partner -- I don't want to be around umasked plague-spreaders. And there is no way to tell whether an unmasked stranger is vaccinated or not.

I am actually planning travel now, but I would cancel it immediately if the mask mandate was removed. It'll be different once we reach herd immunity with 90% of the country vaccinated, but we are nowhere near that.

If the infected people wear masks, that's over 80% effective in preventing infection. Since we don't know who's infected, the only way to gain that benefit is for everyone to wear masks in public.


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## hlcteacher

i am totally ok with this and continue to expand my mask wardrobe..i now have more masks than shoes


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## neroden

IndyLions said:


> So in part to motivate that last group, I’d much prefer that we don’t just blindly extend these dates – but instead announce that when 75% of the population has been vaccinated, then all federal mandates and travel restrictions will be dropped. Period. They may have hinted that in the past, but it needs to be made crystal clear.



That's a good idea -- though epidemiologists disagree on what level we need for herd immunity. Some think 70% is enough, but most are saying 80%-90%. I believe to have *some* margin of safety and avoid a disastrous too-early reopening, we should set it at 85%. (I am not sure 90% is achievable.)


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## Michigan Mom

Not crazy about mask wearing but I'm happy they extended the mandate while waiting for the cases and hospitalizations to decline. I wouldn't feel comfortable in a group transport without masking - not quite yet.


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## SarahZ

IndyLions said:


> So in part to motivate that last group, I’d much prefer that we don’t just blindly extend these dates – but instead announce that when 75% of the population has been vaccinated, then all federal mandates and travel restrictions will be dropped. Period. They may have hinted that in the past, but it needs to be made crystal clear.


This is why I like Gov. Whitmer's plan for Michigan. It's based on the vaccination rate, so it should incentivize more people to get vaccinated.

Someone compared it to a blockbuster movie. You had a ton of people clamoring for tickets and showtimes, and then you had a group that said, "Eh... we'll catch it in a couple weeks or so when it isn't so busy. Maybe when it hits Netflix. I can wait."

Now that we have a carrot/stick situation, those "wait and sees" are going to start scheduling appointments rather than waiting several more weeks.

The University of Michigan created a model that shows we should reach 70% by the end of the summer. Note that "should"; it's an encouraging thought, though.


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## TrackWalker

Cal said:


> Nice mask!



Just doing my small part to help the economy in a fashionable way. 








Amtrak Face Masks - Fine Art America


Choose your favorite amtrak face masks from thousands of available designs. All amtrak face masks ship within 48 hours and include a 30-day money-back guarantee. Our amtrak face masks are made with a durable, machine-washable fabric.



fineartamerica.com


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## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, there are those who are hard of hearing or deaf and lipread and even if the HoH don't lipread, it's still hard for us to hear though masks. Having said that...I'm all for continuing wearing masks when out in public.



I have a friend (SarahZ knows who I'm talking about as he's a mutual friend of ours) who is very hard of hearing, wearing high powered hearing aids and is in his 40s and he wears a mask, has never complained of such things and is a huge advocate of mask wearing and social distancing. The only time I've heard him actually complain is when people aren't wearing masks. I also know many elderly people who are hard of hearing and I've never heard that complaint from them.


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## SarahZ

tim49424 said:


> I have a good friend who is very hard of hearing, in his 40s and he wears a mask, has never complained of such things and is a huge advocate of mask wearing and social distancing. I also know many elderly people who are hard of hearing and I've never heard that complaint from them.


There's a reason they've designed masks with clear panels over the mouth. Obviously the deaf/HoH community has a need. 

Just because your friends haven't complained to you personally doesn't mean an entire community of people feels the same way.


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## tim49424

SarahZ said:


> There's a reason they've designed masks with clear panels over the mouth. Obviously the deaf/HoH community has a need.
> 
> Just because your friends haven't complained to you personally doesn't mean an entire community of people feels the same way.



You're correct there. I was just using him as an example. I was wrong to generalize and apologize.

I still am perplexed, however, regarding the question of (outside the HoH community) why as a society we should just rip off the masks when we're fully vaccinated and not wait for herd immunity to be reached. I wish that the poster who suggested that would explain his logic to me. I don't get it. What is the hardship of wearing a mask for those who don't have extreme health issues?


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## AmtrakBlue

tim49424 said:


> I have a friend (SarahZ knows who I'm talking about as he's a mutual friend of ours) who is very hard of hearing, wearing high powered hearing aids and is in his 40s and he wears a mask, has never complained of such things and is a huge advocate of mask wearing and social distancing. The only time I've heard him actually complain is when people aren't wearing masks. I also know many elderly people who are hard of hearing and I've never heard that complaint from them.


Have you asked your friend how the deaf & HoH feel about trying to communicate with masks? Have you asked your elderly friends. Before you use them as examples you should ask them how they are doing with communicating with people wearing masks.

I did not say people who have trouble with masks are anti-maskers.


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## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> Have you asked your friend how the deaf & HoH feel about trying to communicate with masks? Have you asked your elderly friends. Before you use them as examples you should ask them how they are doing with communicating with people wearing masks.
> 
> I did not say people who have trouble with masks are anti-maskers.



Yes, I did ask, not the mutual friend who I’m referring to but the elderly HoH people. However, if you read my response to Sarah’s post, I admitted to generalizing and apologized.

I never accused you of saying that about anti-maskers, so no need to be defensive.


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## Steve4031

It would help imho if the health officials and Biden got together and said that the mask mandate would be lifted when the nation wide percentage of vaccinated people was x. A finite Goal is helpful. It sets an ending point.


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## Qapla

I am considered elderly and HoH (I don't have hearing aids since they are out of my price range ... but, I need them) - I am fine with the mask wearing and manage to hear people OK ... I just tell them to speak up.


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## AmtrakBlue

Qapla said:


> I am considered elderly and HoH (I don't have hearing aids since they are out of my price range ... but, I need them) - I am fine with the mask wearing and manage to hear people OK ... I just tell them to speak up.


Some people rely on lip reading to augment their hearing. Many deaf people rely on lip reading. Speaking louder can distort sound, so that isn’t necessarily a “fix”.

Since you say you hear people ok, it sounds like you have a mild to moderate hearing loss. Many have severe to profound hearing loss and what works for you doesn’t work for them.
Hearing aids & cochlear implants aren’t “cures”. They help but we still struggle with aural communication.

I’m sure deaf & HoH people are pro-mask, but they would prefer the masks have “windows” that allow the lips to be read.


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## Cal

TrackWalker said:


> Amtrak crews are very serious about this.


Most! Some do the talk, not so much the walk


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## Cal

tim49424 said:


> I'm just curious about something. What's so bad about wearing a simple cloth over your mouth and nose? There are so many good things that happen doing this, but what are you losing when you wear one?


I don't get it either. For those that truthfully have a condition where they CANNOT wear it, then okay. But for people who just don't like it, it's so stupid. I'm sure some of it has to do with politics as well, unfortunately.


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## tim49424

Cal said:


> I don't get it either. For those that truthfully have a condition where they CANNOT wear it, then okay. But for people who just don't like it, it's so stupid. I'm sure some of it has to do with politics as well, unfortunately.



Sadly, you're correct. Masks shouldn't be political, they should be used as a safety precaution, period. Some of our biggest weapons we have against Covid are vaccination, social distancing (including masks) and good hygiene. It's that easy.


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## Qapla

My brother has difficulty with wearing a mask - finds it hard to breath ... so, he uses a face shield instead of trying to use his breathing as an excuse not to wear a "face covering".


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## finleyd

PaTrainFan said:


> This is disappointing. While I fully understand the efficacy of mask wearing I hate to do it because I have yet to figure how to wear one without steaming up my glasses, which is one reason I don't put myself into situations where I need to wear one for any length of time. But, there's still roomettes, when available.


I was in the same situation, you need to try Tommie Copper facemasks, they are wonderful.


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## tim49424

Qapla said:


> My brother has difficulty with wearing a mask - finds it hard to breath ... so, he uses a face shield instead of trying to use his breathing as an excuse not to wear a "face covering".



This is admirable indeed. I’ve seen many shields and am wondering how effective they are. If they are, would they help those with hearing difficulties? I’m sure they are safer than wearing no face covering at all.

Another question….I’m not remembering but are these acceptable for wearing on Amtrak? It seems to me the answer is no, but I’m too lazy tonight to do the research,


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## dlagrua

I have no problem wearing a mask. They are good protection against bacteria but not against virus germs that are microbes. Do they help? Maybe.


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## HenryK

I am a totally deaf person who lipreads and of course cannot understand the speech of anyone who wears a mask. I am completely vaccinated, too. But I still believe in masking and distancing until herd immunity is achieved. The choice is clear: a little temporary annoyance for the general health of society.


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## caravanman

I spent a lot of time on an Amtrak train "chatting" with a deaf American woman. She said she found it a bit more difficult to read my lips as I was from the UK, which I found interesting. This video is about the situation in the UK, don't know if the sign language is specific to the UK?

Covid and deaf in the UK...


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## AmtrakBlue

caravanman said:


> I spent a lot of time on an Amtrak train "chatting" with a deaf American woman. She said she found it a bit more difficult to read my lips as I was from the UK, which I found interesting. This video is about the situation in the UK, don't know if the sign language is specific to the UK?
> 
> Covid and deaf in the UK...


Without watching the video I would guess it’s using BSL (British Sign Language) which is different from ASL (American Sign Language).

I only know a few signs in ASL. I looked up one I know to see how it’s signed in BSL and the signs are different (toilet/bathroom).

As to lip reading being different, I can see that being true as I’m sure we enunciate words differently and that would cause our lips to move differently.


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## SarahZ

dlagrua said:


> I have no problem wearing a mask. They are good protection against bacteria but not against virus germs that are microbes. Do they help? Maybe.


Those microbes are carried in respiratory droplets. The mask blocks the droplets.


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## me_little_me

SarahZ said:


> Those microbes are carried in respiratory droplets. The mask blocks the droplets.


It doesn't block them all. However, it slows down many more. The slower the droplets move, the faster they fall to the ground and the distance they go is much less. It's all described in Physics books.

Those of us who are hard of hearing don't need to wear clear face masks or ones with a clear area around the lips. I, for one, have never had a problem knowing what I say. After all, the thought comes from the brain (well, mostly, in my case) and is "heard" by the brain. It's the other people that need to be wearing those kinds of masks so I can see what they are saying.

Hearing the masked train agent on the other side of the plexiglass is totally impossible. I admire the agent with the brains to, when I ask them to repeat something multiple times, use their heads and write it down for me. Some of the others consider it a burden to do so. It's not only agents. It's doctors' receptionists, ticket sellers of all types, etc.


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## SarahZ

me_little_me said:


> It doesn't block them all. However, it slows down many more. The slower the droplets move, the faster they fall to the ground and the distance they go is much less. It's all described in Physics books.


Correct. I should have been more specific when making my point.


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## AmtrakBlue

Smile: city hands out clear masks to communicate better


The City of Coral Gables is providing area businesses with clear masks to help staff better communicate with people who are hard of hearing, deaf or simply lost in communication. These masks have also proven to




www.miamitodaynews.com


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## fillyjonk

I was looking forward to ditching the mask but I also think it's still too early. I think we do need either a "R must be below this (low) number" or "x% must be vaccinated" (we are not high enough yet, I would say 75% of adults fully vaccinated....and of course kids can't be vaccinated yet, they are still testing, so that's another kettle of fish)

I have a trip (in a roomette) coming up, I guess I can at least take it off when I am in my roomette with the curtain to the corridor closed? Will have to tuck the mask in my shoe or something when I sleep so if I have to get up to go to the restroom I remember to put it on - on campus we are required to wear them in classrooms, halls, and restrooms, but can take them off if alone in our offices and more than once I've stepped out in the hall to run to the restroom or get something from the shared printer and gone "whoops" and had to turn back for the mask.

Would be bad if Amtrak is actually disciplining "offenders" by putting them off the train


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## JayPea

I don't particularly like wearing a mask but I like riding Amtrak far more than I dislike wearing a mask.


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## Deni

One of the reasons that vaccine passports would have been a good idea. Those who are fully vaccinated could ride/fly unmasked but not those who have yet to be vaccinated. That could be the incentive right there. Yes, there are people who cannot get the vaccine due to some medical issue (though not nearly as many as who claim it) but they shouldn't be around unmasked or unvaccinated people anyway. Those who can't get vaccinated are dependent on us getting to herd immunity either way.

I'd like to see bands do concerts for only vaccinated people, and Broadway shows, other forms of entertainment. I think you'd see that increase rates as well.


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## Trollopian

HenryK said:


> I am a totally deaf person who lipreads and of course cannot understand the speech of anyone who wears a mask. I am completely vaccinated, too. But I still believe in masking and distancing until herd immunity is achieved. The choice is clear: a little temporary annoyance for the general health of society.



Thank you, Henry, you have serious "cred" on this issue. So do I. I lost most of my hearing exactly 60 years ago this month, to measles (this was a few years before the measles vaccine). Luckily I was a precocious reader because for a few months I communicated with others by printing simple notes. As it became obvious that the loss was permanent, I got hearing aids. I've worn them since.

While mine was an early-life trauma, most hearing loss is age-related. From the NIH's Quick Statistics About Hearing: "About 2 percent of adults aged 45 to 54 have disabling hearing loss. The rate increases to 8.5 percent for adults aged 55 to 64. Nearly 25 percent of those aged 65 to 74 and 50 percent of those who are 75 and older have disabling hearing loss." (Only about a third of older adults who would benefit from hearing aids wear them. They're expensive and not covered by Medicare.) Notice that seniors are also at far greatest risk of severe illness or death from COVID. So the same age group that may struggle with the communications challenges and other inconveniences of masks also benefits most from the protection they provide.

I rely on lip-reading but I strongly support masks. Usually, when dealing with (e.g.) a post-office staffer or even the medical team at the vaccination center, I explain that I normally lip-read and ask them to speak slower than usual and to forgive me if I ask them to repeat. Most people are polite and patient. I also have an app on my Android phone, "Live Transcribe & Sound Notifications," that does a pretty decent job of live-captioning conversations. (I'm sure there's an I-phone equivalent, probably many.)

Yes, I'd like to reach herd immunity and ditch the masks. (Except in cold and flu season, a payoff that we learned about!) But not yet.


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## jis

I have progressed to becoming somewhat ambivalent about masks. I just carry a folding KN95 in my pocket and put it on as and when I need it. It has completely ceased to be a big deal, or any deal at all. It is like I put on a shirt and shoes whenever necessary too.


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## Deni

fillyjonk said:


> I was looking forward to ditching the mask but I also think it's still too early. I think we do need either a "R must be below this (low) number" or "x% must be vaccinated" (we are not high enough yet, I would say 75% of adults fully vaccinated....and of course kids can't be vaccinated yet, they are still testing, so that's another kettle of fish)


Expecting approval for 12-15 year-olds any day now. I've got a 12-year-old so this is what I've been anxiously awaiting. Hopefully the under 12 kids by the end of the year...


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## AmtrakBlue

My manta when leaving my apartment - phone, mask, water bottle. I don't have to worry about keys because I have to lock my door from the outside so I know I'll have them with me. And I either wear a mask with straps around the neck and head or a neck gaiter, so they're on me in some form from the time I leave till I get back. Which is good because I have gotten out of my car a few times w/o pulling the mask up over my mouth/nose.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> My manta when leaving my apartment - phone, mask, water bottle. I don't have to worry about keys because I have to lock my door from the outside so I know I'll have them with me. And I either wear a mask with straps around the neck and head or a neck gaiter, so they're on me in some form from the time I leave till I get back. Which is good because I have gotten out of my car a few times w/o pulling the mask up over my mouth/nose.


I just keep a supply of disposable masks in the car, and put one on when I arrive at my destination.

I've lost count of the number of times I've made it almost to the front door of a store before realizing that I forgot to put on a mask, and had to walk all the back to my car.


----------



## Anderson

Honestly, Amtrak can call me when this is all over and done with and see if I'm still interested. So can the airlines, but Amtrak is...let's just say "uniquely screwed" in this respect because of trip time issues. At present I am not actually anticipating flying or taking the train anywhere this year.

To be fair, in the case of Amtrak, it's more than just the mask "thing" that is at issue...food service on the eastern trains is the bigger problem, and they're competing against my Eldorado as well. There are times these days when I wonder if my support for them is more reflexive than anything...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> I just keep a supply of disposable masks in the car, and put one on when I arrive at my destination.
> 
> I've lost count of the number of times I've made it almost to the front door of a store before realizing that I forgot to put on a mask, and had to walk all the back to my car.


I only wear behind the ear masks when I go get my hair cut. I have CI processors on my ears with microphones on wires hanging in front of my ear so behind the ear masks are a nuisance. I keep one behind the ear mask & one neck gaiter in my car “just in case”.


----------



## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> I just keep a supply of disposable masks in the car, and put one on when I arrive at my destination.
> 
> I've lost count of the number of times I've made it almost to the front door of a store before realizing that I forgot to put on a mask, and had to walk all the back to my car.


Same with me. We keep a supply of masks in each car. They come in very handy because my memory is worse than my [Darn! I forgot! ] - well, whatever.

We us only disposable masks but sanitize them every day with ozone using my CPAP cleaner. When they become dirty or start to itch from the loose material, we chuck them.) We sanitize about 8 at a time (four for each of us) then leave them out for a day to get rid of the ozone smell. For the past year, combined, we have used about 75 masks.


----------



## Cal

We use cloth masks that we can wash like normal clothes.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I use a mixture of Cloth ( I have about 5 and wash rotate then regularly)and Paper Masks( I have a couple of Boxes since they're now Cheap and easy to get)that I wear for a time or two depending on what I m doing and then replace with a fresh one)

I've had my Vaccine( Pfizer), Austin still has a Mask Mandate ( currently were being sued by our Indicted State Attorney General), as does my employer, where I am tested each time I work.

And of course, the Federal Mask Mandate has been extended on Public Transportation ( Trains,Plznes and Buses) which is sensible since they're all going back to 100% Occupancy @ the end of the month.


----------



## CameraObscura76

tim49424 said:


> Yep, rip off the masks and see the number of infected people rise again. Let's get to herd immunity, then this option is reasonable and logic.
> 
> I'm just curious about something. What's so bad about wearing a simple cloth over your mouth and nose? There are so many good things that happen doing this, but what are you losing when you wear one?


While I completely agree with you on that point, I’m also deaf and mask mandates have made my life more difficult and even though I’ll continue to wear one publicly (even though I’m fully vaccinated ) I really wish I didn’t have to, especially on a long distance trip.


----------



## Cal

CameraObscura76 said:


> _While I completely agree with you on that point, I’m also deaf and mask mandates have made my life more difficult and even though I’ll continue to wear one publicly (even though I’m fully vaccinated ) I really wish I didn’t have to, especially on a long distance trip. _


I think he was referring to the people who just simply don't like it and make up (fake) reasons as to why they cannot wear it. It's completely fine to dislike wearing a mask, especially if you have an actual condition that makes life harder.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

HoH/deaf don’t enjoy wearing masks if we’re using HAs or CI processors because the behind the ear straps can get tangled up with our devices and make it hard to remove the mask without dislodging the devices. There are other types of masks that are easier for us to use - but not as easy to obtain.

But the bigger problem is OTHERS wearing masks. Many of us need to see lips & facial expressions. Others are the ones who should be wearing clear masks if they’re going to be interacting with the public (since they won’t know when someone needs to read their lips)


----------



## Barb Stout

Deni said:


> I'd like to see bands do concerts for only vaccinated people, and Broadway shows, other forms of entertainment. I think you'd see that increase rates as well.


Just this morning I had the idea that popular musicians could host a combination concert and vaccination clinic with free tickets to those who were already vaccinated and those who aren't, but who got vaccinated right at that musical event. I'm sure there are a lot of hurdles to successfully implement the idea though.


----------



## wwchi

Totally willing to keep wearing a mask while traveling until we have much more certainty around odds of infection. Too many people still crying about masks and things not opening up but not willing to wear the mask or get vaccinated. The sooner more do their part the sooner we get to where we ALL want to be!


----------



## HammerJack

For long distance travel:
Wearing a mask in coach is mildly annoying, but tolerable with the right mask. Sleepers just seem too expensive these days for my wallet.
$50 from Chicago to the west in coach with a mask vs $1000 in a sleeper without a mask? I’ll still take coach being the better deal haha.


----------



## CameraObscura76

AmtrakBlue said:


> HoH/deaf don’t enjoy wearing masks if we’re using HAs or CI processors because the behind the ear straps can get tangled up with our devices and make it hard to remove the mask without dislodging the devices. There are other types of masks that are easier for us to use - but not as easy to obtain.
> 
> But the bigger problem is OTHERS wearing masks. Many of us need to see lips & facial expressions. Others are the ones who should be wearing clear masks if they’re going to be interacting with the public (since they won’t know when someone needs to read their lips)


YES!! Not only are my HA’s constantly tangled up in my mask straps, but the constant struggle of not being able to lip read and read facial expressions which is crucial for communication especially with those who don’t or can’t sign.


----------



## Anderson

CameraObscura76 said:


> _YES!! Not only are my HA’s constantly tangled up in my mask straps, but the constant struggle of not being able to lip read and read facial expressions which is crucial for communication especially with those who don’t or can’t sign. _


One thing I've also seen as what I'll call (at this point) a bit of an "attitude problem" is "Don't take the mask off for this situation". I've got a related issue in that I have significant filtering issues in loud environments...even pre-pandemic, I'd often avoid a bar with live entertainment (or relatively loud music in general) unless I could be sure I wouldn't be in the "firing line" from the speakers because trying to communicate with the server sometimes required outsourcing the task to my brother. Now, it's just a total non-starter...but even in somewhat quieter settings, the filtering issue kicks in.


----------



## Qapla

While it may be inconvenient for those with hearing difficulties (and, yes, I have them) to fully comprehend others with a mask on as a reason to do away with masks is like saying that steps should be done away in favor of ramps because some people with mobility issues can't use steps.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Qapla said:


> While it may be inconvenient for those with hearing difficulties (and, yes, I have them) to fully comprehend others with a mask on as a reason to do away with masks is like saying that steps should be done away in favor of ramps because some people with mobility issues can't use steps.


Point taken but it might be kind of cool if everything had Jetsons level automated ramps.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Qapla said:


> While it may be inconvenient for those with hearing difficulties (and, yes, I have them) to fully comprehend others with a mask on as a reason to do away with masks is like saying that steps should be done away in favor of ramps because some people with mobility issues can't use steps.


Who has said “do away with masks because it’s hard to hear”? I believe all the people who posted about the deaf/HoH difficulties also said they think everyone should still wear masks. What we have said is that it would be nice if everyone wore clear masks.


----------



## Anderson

AmtrakBlue said:


> Who has said “do away with masks because it’s hard to hear”? I believe all the people who posted about the deaf/HoH difficulties also said they think everyone should still wear masks. What we have said is that it would be nice if everyone wore clear masks.


Or, in the alternative, "By all means wear a mask but if I cannot hear you because of a combination of noise and so on, since the mask is notionally for my protection if I need you to can you slide it down for a moment?"

(Noting, for example, that I am vaccinated and about 90% of the time so is everyone in my party, and that by being in most such venues these days I'm "close enough" to the neighboring table that adding you to the mix is a very low marginal risk to me.)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Anderson said:


> Or, in the alternative, "By all means wear a mask but if I cannot hear you because of a combination of noise and so on, since the mask is notionally for my protection if I need you to can you slide it down for a moment?"
> 
> (Noting, for example, that I am vaccinated and about 90% of the time so is everyone in my party, and that by being in most such venues these days I'm "close enough" to the neighboring table that adding you to the mix is a very low marginal risk to me.)


People have been doing that already without my asking them to and it irks me because they forget that their mask is protecting me as much as it’s protecting them.


----------



## jebr

*Moderator note*: After further discussion, the moderation team has opened a new thread for the practical aspects of the Amtrak mask mandate (such as implementation and on board enforcement) here. This thread can and should be used for broader discussions regarding Amtrak's mask mandate.


----------



## me_little_me

AmtrakBlue said:


> People have been doing that already without my asking them to and it irks me because they forget that their mask is protecting me as much as it’s protecting them.


Actually more.


----------



## LookingGlassTie

The next time that I might be taking Amtrak anywhere will next January or February. Hopefully the mask policy will be rescinded (or at least lightened) by then.


----------



## Cal

LookingGlassTie said:


> The next time that I might be taking Amtrak anywhere will next January or February. Hopefully the mask policy will be rescinded (or at least lightened) by then.


How would you want them to lighten it?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

LookingGlassTie said:


> The next time that I might be taking Amtrak anywhere will next January or February. Hopefully the mask policy will be rescinded (or at least lightened) by then.


If enough people are vaccinated and new infections are low enough the masks can go away tomorrow.


----------



## hlcteacher

if....


----------



## neroden

Deni said:


> Expecting approval for 12-15 year-olds any day now. I've got a 12-year-old so this is what I've been anxiously awaiting. Hopefully the under 12 kids by the end of the year...


Reading between the lines, Pfizer approval by the FDA for 12-15 year olds will be Tuesday. This is because the CDC meeting to decide on whether to recommend the vaccine for 12-15 year olds is scheduled for Wednesday. (They will recommend it.) Expect most sites which have Pfizer to open up appointment scheduling (and possibly walk-ins?) for 12-15 year olds on Thursday, though some might act as early as Tuesday.

That's my guess on the timing.


----------



## Exvalley

We are at a point in the United States where anyone over the age of 16 can get vaccinated. Soon children 12 years of age and older will be able to get vaccinated.

In light of that, I believe that the mask mandates need to go away once everyone 12 and up has had a sufficient opportunity to be fully vaccinated (two weeks after their last dose). Sometime this summer would make sense. At a certain point, I shouldn't have to wear my mask to protect you if you aren't willing to protect yourself by getting vaccinated.


----------



## tricia

Exvalley said:


> We are at a point in the United States where anyone over the age of 16 can get vaccinated. Soon children 12 years of age and older will be able to get vaccinated.
> 
> In light of that, I believe that the mask mandates need to go away once everyone 12 and up has had a sufficient opportunity to be fully vaccinated (two weeks after their last dose). Sometime this summer would make sense. At a certain point, I shouldn't have to wear my mask to protect you if you aren't willing to protect yourself by getting vaccinated.



I wish this were unequivocally so, however....

It's still not clear whether, and in what numbers, those of us who've been vaccinated can harbor infections without symptoms, and be contagious to others. It looks increasingly like this is a small risk, but the body of experience with these vaccines is still too recent to be conclusive about it.

Second (and IMHO more significant): With so many selfish louts refusing to be vaccinated, the US is still a giant petri dish breeding Covid variants that our vaccines might turn out not to be so effective against. 

I might be missing other reasons for continuing to wear masks, at least indoors in public spaces. But AFAIC, these are reason enough at this point to keep me doing so.


----------



## Anderson

tricia said:


> I wish this were unequivocally so, however....
> 
> It's still not clear whether, and in what numbers, those of us who've been vaccinated can harbor infections without symptoms, and be contagious to others. It looks increasingly like this is a small risk, but the body of experience with these vaccines is still too recent to be conclusive about it.
> 
> Second (and IMHO more significant): With so many selfish louts refusing to be vaccinated, the US is still a giant petri dish breeding Covid variants that our vaccines might turn out not to be so effective against.
> 
> I might be missing other reasons for continuing to wear masks, at least indoors in public spaces. But AFAIC, these are reason enough at this point to keep me doing so.


I'm going to be ice cold here, but if someone has refused to get vaccinated and they get this thing and die, I have _very_ little sympathy at this stage and increasingly I resent being asked to inconvenience myself for their sake (given the negligible risks to folks who have been vaccinated in general). It's not where it was back in, say, January where there were cases of (for example) a first responder preferring not to get a shot because they'd rather let someone who was medically fragile go first. With an asterisk to folks who can't get a shot, at this point if you're an adult and you're not in the pipeline to get your shots, you've made a choice and while I don't intend to beat folks up _too_ much over it (even if I think a lot of them are idiots), I don't care to inconvenience myself for them either.


----------



## Deni

neroden said:


> Reading between the lines, Pfizer approval by the FDA for 12-15 year olds will be Tuesday. This is because the CDC meeting to decide on whether to recommend the vaccine for 12-15 year olds is scheduled for Wednesday. (They will recommend it.) Expect most sites which have Pfizer to open up appointment scheduling (and possibly walk-ins?) for 12-15 year olds on Thursday, though some might act as early as Tuesday.
> 
> That's my guess on the timing.


FDA just announced the approval.


----------



## Ryan

Anderson said:


> I'm going to be ice cold here, but if someone has refused to get vaccinated and they get this thing and die,


If that same person is carrying a variant for which your vaccine is less effective, you may be singing a different tune.

Wearing the damn mask is the smallest of inconveniences. Just wear it when you're in close quarters with strangers and quit bitching.


----------



## Anderson

Ryan said:


> If that same person is carrying a variant for which your vaccine is less effective, you may be singing a different tune.


I (quite sincerely) think I actually crossed the line on caring about that sometime last summer.


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> We are at a point in the United States where anyone over the age of 16 can get vaccinated. Soon children 12 years of age and older will be able to get vaccinated.
> 
> In light of that, I believe that the mask mandates need to go away once everyone 12 and up has had a sufficient opportunity to be fully vaccinated (two weeks after their last dose). Sometime this summer would make sense. At a certain point, I shouldn't have to wear my mask to protect you if you aren't willing to protect yourself by getting vaccinated.


And what about children under 12? Since there is a possibility that vaccinated people can get and spread the disease - and of course with the anti-vaxxers around, they can spread it to you even though it might be a mild or symptomless case, why would you want to endanger my grandchildren?


----------



## Ryan

Anderson said:


> I (quite sincerely) think I actually crossed the line on caring about that sometime last summer.


And that's why we need mask mandates.


----------



## Exvalley

me_little_me said:


> And what about children under 12? Since there is a possibility that vaccinated people can get and spread the disease - and of course with the anti-vaxxers around, they can spread it to you even though it might be a mild or symptomless case, why would you want to endanger my grandchildren?


The seasonal flu is much more deadly to children under 12. Why were you endangering them all of these years?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Exvalley said:


> The seasonal flu is much more deadly to children under 12. Why were you endangering them all of these years?











Similarities and Differences between Flu and COVID-19


Know the common symptoms of flu and possible complications. It can cause mild to severe illness, and at times can lead to death.




www.cdc.gov




.



> The risk of complications for healthy children is higher for flu compared to COVID-19. *However, infants and children with underlying medical conditions are at increased risk for both flu and COVID-19*.
> 
> Young children are at higher risk of severe illness from flu.
> 
> School-aged children infected with COVID-19 are at higher risk of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C), a rare but severe complication of COVID-19.



I would prefer not to risk any children getting COVID (or the flu). YOU don't know which kids are at risk.


----------



## Exvalley

I’m a huge proponent of masks and wear my mask religiously during this pandemic. However, I also understand that life comes with risks and at a certain point government does not have sufficient justification to compel mask wearing. We are approaching that point, appeals to emotion aside.


----------



## Ryan

Exvalley said:


> We are approaching that point


I'm glad that we agree that we are not yet at that point. By September we'll have a lot more information on the efficacy against newer variants to make a decision on if that's the right time or not. Hopefully the good track record we're seeing now isn't screwed up by those that continue to do everything they can to keep the virus in circulation long enough to allow it to mutate away from the vaccine over the summer.


----------



## CTANut

I think the Amtrak mask order will partially go away soon.








Fully vaccinated people can ditch masks indoors, physical distancing: CDC


People who are fully vaccinated against coronavirus no longer need to wear masks indoors or outdoors or physical distance while in large and small gatherings, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky announced during a White House COVID-19 briefing Thursday.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## JoeBas

I doubt it. Read past the headline.


----------



## Ryan

Indeed. 



The Article said:


> Fully vaccinated individuals are still advised to wear masks while in crowded indoor settings such as while on public transportation and in hospitals, prisons and homeless shelters.


----------



## dlagrua

Our last trip was in August 2020 to Whitefish on the EB. For common courtesy we did wear our masks when moving about the train but the train was loaded with Amish travelers few of whom had them pulled up, and many were mask free. While masks are good protection against bacteria there is evidence to suggest that they offer minimal protection against virus microbes that measure millionths of an inch. It is what it is, and by 2022 I believe that masks will be a thing of the past.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

@SarahZ , do you want to set diagrua straight again about masks and viruses.


----------



## Cal

dlagrua said:


> Our last trip was in August 2020 to Whitefish on the EB. For common courtesy we did wear our masks when moving about the train but the train was loaded with Amish travelers few of whom had them pulled up, and many were mask free. While masks are good protection against bacteria there is evidence to suggest that they offer minimal protection against virus microbes that measure millionths of an inch. It is what it is, and by 2022 I believe that masks will be a thing of the past.


When I was on the Chief, Amish were on board the entire way. They all wore masks.


----------



## me_little_me

dlagrua said:


> Our last trip was in August 2020 to Whitefish on the EB. For common courtesy we did wear our masks when moving about the train but the train was loaded with Amish travelers few of whom had them pulled up, and many were mask free. While masks are good protection against bacteria there is evidence to suggest that they offer minimal protection against virus microbes that measure millionths of an inch. It is what it is, and by 2022 I believe that masks will be a thing of the past.


It's not the virus that the masks stop. It's the water droplets in which the virii reside. Masks stop some of the droplets completely and slow down the others so they tend not to travel as far.
When compared the size of even bacteria, water droplets are huge boulders as evidenced by the fact you can see them when someone is sneezing.


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> there is evidence to suggest that they offer minimal protection against virus microbes


[citation needed]


----------



## Anderson

Ryan said:


> Indeed.


Per the quote, I find the situation to be a mess. Yes, I have my biases (clearly indicated earlier) here. But while they carved out that exception, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why "Must wear mask while in an International Business Class suite [where the airlines have been bloviating about how good the air filtration systems are for about a year] but not while in a [proverbial or literal] mosh pit" makes sense. There is hyperbole in my remarks, but I _do _think there's a pretty clear disconnect to be had there. Put somewhat differently, I suspect that I am at a higher risk of picking up the virus in a packed bar than I am in Acela First (or indeed, in a "normal" Amtrak dining car) even with folks shuffling in and out. Coach on a Regional is somewhere in the middle...if Amtrak remains at 50% capacity, the risk seems to be marginal (at most) while I'll agree that it is greater given theoretical full-selling of seats.


----------



## IndyLions

While I will continue to wear a mask where mandated - as I have through this entire pandemic - we are pretty much at the point where fully vaccinated people wearing masks is just silly and not the least bit science based.

“We don’t know enough” and “what about the 12 year olds” is not a valid response. There’s no significantly measurable danger any vaccinated adult is going to pose to anyone.

Are there exceptions? Sure - But they should be few and far between.


----------



## jebr

IndyLions said:


> While I will continue to wear a mask where mandated - as I have through this entire pandemic - we are pretty much at the point where fully vaccinated people wearing masks is just silly and not the least bit science based.
> 
> “We don’t know enough” and “what about the 12 year olds” is not a valid response. There’s no significantly measurable danger any vaccinated adult is going to pose to anyone.
> 
> Are there exceptions? Sure - But they should be few and far between.



The real issue from a public health standpoint is that there's no easy way to prove vaccination status that can't be easily faked, at least across-the-board in the US. Given how some people have actively defied mask mandates already, it is quite likely that there will be some people who are unvaccinated that choose to act as though they're fully vaccinated under the CDC guidance. That puts others who are unvaccinated at risk - and given that not everyone can be vaccinated yet (particularly those under 12) and community spread is still quite prevalent, public health rules need to take that into account.


----------



## Bob Dylan

IndyLions said:


> While I will continue to wear a mask where mandated - as I have through this entire pandemic - we are pretty much at the point where fully vaccinated people wearing masks is just silly and not the least bit science based.
> 
> “We don’t know enough” and “what about the 12 year olds” is not a valid response. There’s no significantly measurable danger any vaccinated adult is going to pose to anyone.
> 
> Are there exceptions? Sure - But they should be few and far between.


It's not silly @ all when you consider that there are Vaccinated people Testing Positive for COVID, and also there are those who.have had COVID being infected again.

If you want to go into a crowd without a Mask, be my Guest, but you wont get infected by me because I'm Vaccinated and will be wearing a Mask when around others!

It's common courtesy, but too many of people only care about themselves!


----------



## flitcraft

AmtrakBlue said:


> HoH/deaf don’t enjoy wearing masks if we’re using HAs or CI processors because the behind the ear straps can get tangled up with our devices and make it hard to remove the mask without dislodging the devices. There are other types of masks that are easier for us to use - but not as easy to obtain.



My husband had that problem--constantly pulling his hearing aids out when removing, or even adjusting, his mask. We found that the back-of-the-head strap that Tom Bihn sells solved that problem completely. It's compatible with any ear-loop mask, and they're made right in Seattle Washington, where all of his bags, masks, etc. are manufactured. You can find them by Googling Tom Bihn--they're only sold on their own website. (I highly recommend their bags, every-day-carries, etc. as well...)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

flitcraft said:


> My husband had that problem--constantly pulling his hearing aids out when removing, or even adjusting, his mask. We found that the back-of-the-head strap that Tom Bihn sells solved that problem completely. It's compatible with any ear-loop mask, and they're made right in Seattle Washington, where all of his bags, masks, etc. are manufactured. You can find them by Googling Tom Bihn--they're only sold on their own website. (I highly recommend their bags, every-day-carries, etc. as well...)


Thanks for the recommendation. I’ve built up a weeks worth of Buff masks which use filters. I had seen those early on because I already had some of their neck gaiters and was using those initially. I still occasionally use the neck gaiters - I fold up from the neck to create 3 layers - when I’m just planning to be outside walking.


----------



## IndyLions

Bob Dylan said:


> It's not silly @ all when you consider that there are Vaccinated people Testing Positive for COVID, and also there are those who.have had COVID being infected again.
> 
> If you want to go into a crowd without a Mask, be my Guest, but you wont get infected by me because I'm Vaccinated and will be wearing a Mask when around others!
> 
> It's common courtesy, but too many of people only care about themselves!



This isn’t about common courtesy any more. This is about taking steps that actually make a difference.

Masking up vaccinated people won’t end this pandemic one day sooner.


----------



## Qapla

IndyLions said:


> Masking up vaccinated people won’t end this pandemic one day sooner.



Neither will unmasking ... but there does seem to be some indications that mask wearing slows the spread down as well as making it so we don't have to see so much bad dental work


----------



## Bob Dylan

IndyLions said:


> This isn’t about common courtesy any more. This is about taking steps that actually make a difference.
> 
> Masking up vaccinated people won’t end this pandemic one day sooner.


The only problem with your comment is that 60% of the American people have NOT received the Vaccine, and a Majority of Republicans surveyed have said they won't get Vaccinated!

We all know that this disease is not going to go away, we will need to get Booster shots every year, and as variants continue to appear and countries like India,Mexico and Brazil ( where children and babies are dying in droves)continue to have increasing cases and Deaths, the reality is that it will continue to reappear here,that's a given.

I'm happy that the Mask mandate continues to be in effect on transportation, but I will not patronize any business or event that allow people to go Maskless where large crowds are present and Social Distancing is not practiced.


----------



## me_little_me

jebr said:


> The real issue from a public health standpoint is that there's no easy way to prove vaccination status that can't be easily faked, at least across-the-board in the US. Given how some people have actively defied mask mandates already, it is quite likely that there will be some people who are unvaccinated that choose to act as though they're fully vaccinated under the CDC guidance. That puts others who are unvaccinated at risk - and given that not everyone can be vaccinated yet (particularly those under 12) and community spread is still quite prevalent, public health rules need to take that into account.


If vaccination status is determined by having a CDC card, then faking that is so easy, anyone with some computer experience can create such a card. CDC logos can be found online and miniaturized. The fonts are nothing unique. The stickers can be made using printable computer stickers and the card itself is ordinary card stock. Filling in the hand-written information can be done by anyone as who would know who wrote in the information?

The most reliable evidence is likely the states' databases. But those who don't want to be vaccinated will be the first ones to complain about their rights of privacy to this information and only big places like airports and cruise ship ports or online ticketing sites (ala Amtrak or major entertainment ticketing sites) would have the facilities to verify the vaccination.


----------



## Asher

I don’t think it’s going to take too long to see a significant scientific reaction to the new mask protocol.


----------



## PaTrainFan

anumberone said:


> I don’t think it’s going to take too long to see a significant scientific reaction to the new mask protocol.



Dr. Fauci said this morning on Face the Nation that based on the science there will likely be additional tweaks to the guidance coming out in the next couple of weeks. The situation is rapidly changing.


----------



## John Santos

me_little_me said:


> If vaccination status is determined by having a CDC card, then faking that is so easy, anyone with some computer experience can create such a card. CDC logos can be found online and miniaturized. The fonts are nothing unique. The stickers can be made using printable computer stickers and the card itself is ordinary card stock. Filling in the hand-written information can be done by anyone as who would know who wrote in the information?
> 
> The most reliable evidence is likely the states' databases. But those who don't want to be vaccinated will be the first ones to complain about their rights of privacy to this information and only big places like airports and cruise ship ports or online ticketing sites (ala Amtrak or major entertainment ticketing sites) would have the facilities to verify the vaccination.


It's really really easy to hang around an ATM, wait for someone to withdraw cash, and club them over the head and take it. Just because it is really easy doesn't mean we should permit it.


----------



## me_little_me

John Santos said:


> It's really really easy to hang around an ATM, wait for someone to withdraw cash, and club them over the head and take it. Just because it is really easy doesn't mean we should permit it.


I never said it should be permitted. I say that using it as proof of vaccination is a joke - and a cruel joke on those too young or too unhealthy to get the vaccine since they (or caretakers)will be fooled into thinking that social distancing and masks can be relaxed somewhat.


----------



## Asher

Deni said:


> I'd like to see bands do concerts for only vaccinated people, and Broadway shows, other forms of entertainment. I think you'd see that increase rates as well.


I think I’ll add Bars and Casinos.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Too each their own, but a Large Majority of Travelers dont want to be close to Strangers inside of places or on means of Transportation!
> 
> You're not wearing a Mask for you, you're doing it for others!
> Stay home and stay Safe! if you cant wear a Face Covering!


No one has mentioned this... but the extension of mask wearing probably means another delay in full service dining; community seating at the dining tables with the mask mandate probably won't happen.

And Amtrak will not open full service dining with low density seating replacing the policy of 'packing 'em in; at it's tables. Hope I'm wrong!


----------



## PVD

The option of a same day pre-entry rapid test or a within 72 hour PCR is offered at many venues now for those who choose to (or cannot) be vaccinated.


----------



## neroden

anumberone said:


> I don’t think it’s going to take too long to see a significant scientific reaction to the new mask protocol.


Oh, the new CDC recommendations have already been condemned by every scientist I follow. Largely because there's no way to tell who's really vaccinated and who's faking it.


----------



## PaulM

neroden said:


> Oh, the new CDC recommendations have already been condemned by every scientist I follow. Largely because there's no way to tell who's really vaccinated and who's faking it.


I would hope that it wouldn't take a scientist to make the same logical deduction.


----------



## IndyLions

neroden said:


> Oh, the new CDC recommendations have already been condemned by every scientist I follow. Largely because there's no way to tell who's really vaccinated and who's faking it.



I guess I still don’t follow all the angst over vaccinated people not wearing masks based on the CDC recommendation. The vaccinated are not likely to catch Covid and are not likely to spread it. In the unlikely event they do catch it, they aren’t going to die.

If someone unvaccinated goes maskless, which is bound to happen - they could catch it and/or spread it to other unvaccinated people. But at this stage every unvaccinated adult has had the chance to be vaccinated, so they’ve signed up for the risk.

Yes - for a school play at an elementary school all adults vaccinated or not should be required to wear masks. But the CDC recommendation at schools hasn’t changed - so that’s moot.

If some of you don’t feel comfortable going maskless than you are perfectly in your right to keep masking up.

But what in the _current_ situation makes you so insistent everyone else who has been vaccinated should be forced to continue masking up as well - even when the CDC says it’s safe?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Our So Called Governor, the Big Believer in Small Government and Local Control, has just issued an Executive Order that prohibits any Government Agency or School District in Texas from requiring Face Coverings!!!

Why do I feel so Safe???


----------



## IndyLions

Bob Dylan said:


> Our So Called Governor, the Big Believer in Small Government and Local Control, has just issued an Executive Order that prohibits any Government Agency or School District in Texas from requiring Face Coverings!!!
> 
> Why do I feel so Safe???



I understand you may not feel safe, but as an independent I have whiplash!

Republicans believe in local government, until the local government makes a decision they don’t like.

Democrats believe everyone should follow the CDC, until the CDC makes a decision they don’t like.

Sigh.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Oh, the new CDC recommendations have already been condemned by every scientist I follow. Largely because there's no way to tell who's really vaccinated and who's faking it.


I mean, they gave us those nifty cards...

There were a slew of issues that had arisen. On the one hand, the CDC _needed_ to revise its guidance. Based on what I've seen (both anecdotally and in whatever data sources exist), the complete lack of a change in much of the guidance over the last few months had led folks to start ignoring it because the "asks" in it were not closely connected with realistic expectations. Implicitly telling a fully-vaccinated family to walk on eggshells when getting together just wasn't going to cut it, and IIRC the guidance that _was_ issued was rather complicated (to put it mildly).

I think there's a case that the CDC veered too far to the other side, and the idea that, for example, one activity is safe _sans mask_ per their guidance in Florida or Texas but not in California or New York comes across as something of a disconnect (obviously, the phrasing was aimed at avoiding CDC guidance being in _direct_ opposition to existing rules rather than merely being vaguely disconnected from it). It really feels like the CDC's guidance is "Once you get your shots and it's been two weeks, you're not our problem".

But the bottom line is that in a case like this, it can be better to issue guidance that you think people will actually listen to than guidance that is "right" but that folks are going to simply ignore. The best analogy here is the fight over abstinence-only sex ed...yes, not having sex means you're not going to get pregnant or (for the most part) pick up an STD, but the reality is that if that's all you teach, a lot of folks are going to ignore the advice because something something biological imperatives. And of course, if you start giving too much advice that folks ignore, that reduces the chance that folks will listen to you later (here, the best analogy is probably the 55 MPH speed limit...if you tell folks to go 55 _everywhere_, sooner or later they start judging a safe speed for themselves).

So put plainly, the CDC was trying to set a 55 MPH speed limit and I think that they found a bunch of vaccinated folks were saying "Screw this" and doing 90, so they tried compromising on a 75 MPH speed limit for them. I don't think this was a fight they won, or that they were _going_ to win, but I think that's essentially what happened.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes!!! A real salad!!! A dinner entree that looks like a dinner entree!
> 
> We’ve made it to the promised land everyone!


Now just get rid of the muzzle masks!


----------



## neroden

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Now just get rid of the muzzle masks!


Not until the pandemic is actually under control, please. It is not.


----------



## Sidney

It is still a federal mandate to wear masks until September 13 on any form of public transportationm


----------



## Dustyroad

Sidney said:


> It is still a federal mandate to wear masks until September 13 on any form of public transportationm


I'm trying to find this info. Is it on the Amtrak site and where?


----------



## Steve4031

Dustyroad said:


> I'm trying to find this info. Is it on the Amtrak site and where?



If you can’t find it on the website you will get emails and notifications before your trip. Announcements will be made in the station. Arguing that it is not in writing somewhere is a way to ensure that you will be put off of the train before your destination.


----------



## PVD

The landing page of website shows "face coverings" pretty hard to miss


----------



## AmtrakBlue

If you book a ticket online you have to check that you read the COVID/Mask policy before you can proceed with your purchase.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Now just get rid of the muzzle masks!


Feel free to stay in Oklahoma.



1. Get the shot
2. Wear a mask
3. Stay at home

Pick one. 

I’m fine with vaccinated folks removing their masks but mindless incubators who refuse to take any corrective action while complaining about freedom get no sympathy from me.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AmtrakBlue said:


> If you book a ticket online you have to check that you read the COVID/Mask policy before you can proceed with your purchase.


When I booked my upcoming Day trip with AGR on the Phone, the Friendly,Professional Agent asked me if he needed to read the Amtrak COVID Protocols,including Mandatory Mask wearing in all Stations, on Platforms and aboard all Amtrak Trains.

I told him no, that I was fully aware and would follow the Protocols!


----------



## Dustyroad

Steve4031 said:


> If you can’t find it on the website you will get emails and notifications before your trip. Announcements will be made in the station. Arguing that it is not in writing somewhere is a way to ensure that you will be put off of the train before your destination.


Thanks for letting me know that info. For some reason I am not getting notifications from post I am active in. I will have to fix that. I don't mind wearing the mask but I have a problem with it. I have breathing problems. And one of my ears is not even with the other one so the mask doesn't fit under my glasses correctly. I just wish more people would JUST GET THE SHOT.


----------



## PVD

They sell little plastic bands that go behind the head which you clip the ear loops on to to take them off your ears. Can make a big difference in wearability, and are very inexpensive.


----------



## PVD

This would be an example of what I was using before someone gave me a box of masks with head bands instead of ear loops.


----------



## me_little_me

With my hearing aids, I was provided with a set of clips that work exceptionally well. When you have Behind the Ear aids, along with glasses, the ear masks manage to always get intertwined with the hearing aids and both the aid and the mask come off when removing the mask.


----------



## Dustyroad

PVD said:


> View attachment 23090
> This would be an example of what I was using before someone gave me a box of masks with head bands instead of ear loops.



Thanks, I might try those.


----------



## PVD

There are a bunch of different styles of them, the ones I bought weren't very expensive, and work pretty well.


----------



## fillyjonk

PVD said:


> They sell little plastic bands that go behind the head which you clip the ear loops on to to take them off your ears. Can make a big difference in wearability, and are very inexpensive.



Ear savers. I bought some from an Etsy seller and they made all the difference. I taught two semesters mostly in person (fall 20 and spring 21) and used those every day, helped the masks stay snug and also prevented the backs of my ears from chafing from the elastic.


----------



## Rambling Robert

There are two basic types of transmission:
1. TRAVEL
2. COMMUNITY 

VIRUSES are for the most part common within community BUT TRAVEL could be an unknown virus yet to be discovered and although it hasn’t happened very deadly. PLUS the non-Vaxers could get infected if they don’t wear a mask.

we are almost there


----------



## JRR

Rambling Robert said:


> There are two basic types of transmission:
> 1. TRAVEL
> 2. COMMUNITY
> 
> VIRUSES are for the most part common within community BUT TRAVEL could be an unknown virus yet to be discovered and although it hasn’t happened very deadly. PLUS the non-Vaxers could get infected if they don’t wear a mask.
> 
> we are almost there


I have found that using a defogger on glasses is an effective way to combat the fogging up of glasses. You can get it at CVS or Walgreens and I’m sure at Rite Aid.

Other that at Drs offices, hospitals etc. we are over with the masks in SC. I’m still waiting for the science on mask wearing. I’ve seen no report on a double blind peer review study concerning their effectiveness is stopping the transmission of COVID.

Those in the vulnerable categories should be very careful traveling or otherwise even if vaccinated because COVID isn’t the only virus out there.

My accountant and his wife both got COVID but their young children didn’t. He had a mild fever and sniffles for two days. His wife had no symptoms but tested positive while the young children all tested negative.

This a serious matter and all precautions reasonably necessary should be taken. The question, of course, is what is reasonable under the circumstances. That will always be the subject of debate. And it is important that their be such full and open debate. I’m afraid that we are becoming a people that will not tolerate opinions different from ours and will not listen to others opinions and reasoning.


----------



## MARC Rider

I just spent 3 days riding trains and hanging around the stations. Wore a mask the whole time, except when eating. Really, it was not a big deal. Even if it's not really medically necessary, and it may well be that it is, it is really not very much of an imposition on people. The way some people carry on about, you'd think that the government was requiring every traveler to strip naked, take an IQ test, and get a score of 200 before being allowed to be in a public place. Yeah, it looks like the pandemic is winding down, but the vaccination rate is still really low in some places, we're still not sure when people are going to need a booster vaccination, and the pandemic is still going strong in other parts of the world. It looks like most of the current vaccines protect from the Delta variant, but if they don't control it soon, it could mutate to Epsilon through Omega variants that might elude the vaccines. As our governor has said, "Just wear the #@^%##$! mask!"


----------



## j_ratza

Sorry can't let the science of mask comments go. Why do doctor's where mask during surgery, fashion? Why have flu cases been down? I'm pretty sure the data supports the precaution of mask wearing. Remember gravity is a theory but you don't go floating in to space.


----------



## MARC Rider

JRR said:


> Other that at Drs offices, hospitals etc. we are over with the masks in SC. I’m still waiting for the science on mask wearing. I’ve seen no report on a double blind peer review study concerning their effectiveness is stopping the transmission of COVID.



I'm not sure you need a double-blind study to evaluate the effectiveness of various health policy measures. We certainly never used double blind studies to formulate environmental policy. But, in any event, here's a listing of relevant studies compiled by the health department of your neighbor to the north:

open (ncdhhs.gov)


----------



## Qapla

How many of the people who object to wearing a mask on the basis that there has not been enough research would feel comfortable having a surgical team open them up for serious surgery without masks on?


----------



## PRR 60

Qapla said:


> How many of the people who object to wearing a mask on the basis that there has not been enough research would feel comfortable having a surgical team open them up for serious surgery without masks on?



There is a difference between the infection mitigation required when a person is in surgery and is literally cut open and that required to mitigate airborne, inhaled virus in a public setting. Until the pandemic, doctors, nurses and other medical staff were not masked for routine office visits, lab procedures, x-rays, etc. So, yes, if I'm in surgery, I want everyone masked. If I'm in the supermarket or on a train, the need is less obvious.


----------



## Qapla

Under normal circumstances, the need for people to be masked in public places is not so needed - however, just like the operating room requires special mitigation ... during a pandemic, the need for special mitigation should be expected and accepted not argued that "we need more studies". We should do all we can so stop a pandemic, not try to skirt the issues behind "more studies" just because we don't feel like doing the obvious.

The idea that some just don't care because they don't want to be inconvenienced is exemplified by those who use use the restroom (regardless if it is #1 or #2) and leave without washing their hands - again, regardless if it is a public or private restroom. I guess they feel more studies are needed ...


----------



## Barb Stout

Devil's Advocate said:


> Feel free to stay in Oklahoma.
> 
> View attachment 23087
> 
> 1. Get the shot
> 2. Wear a mask
> 3. Stay at home
> 
> Pick one.
> 
> I’m fine with vaccinated folks removing their masks but mindless incubators who refuse to take any corrective action while complaining about freedom get no sympathy from me.


I'm also pulling my hair out over one of my friends who doesn't "want to put chemicals in my body," but at least she will wear a mask when reminded.


----------



## IndyLions

Again - the only people being protected by masks right now are people who could care less if they are protected or not. That wasn’t true a few months ago, but it’s true now.

Yes - some people on the red side have been programmed that masks never were needed and didn’t help. They’re wrong.

And some on the blue side have been programmed that masks should be required regardless of one’s vaccination status until Covid is “wiped out”. They’re just as wrong.

Both sides think the other side are idiots.

Us independents are even worse, we think they’re all idiots


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Again - the only people being protected by masks right now are people who could care less if they are protected or not. That wasn’t true a few months ago, but it’s true now.



Not completely true. Children still can’t get the vaccine and vaccinated people can still catch covid and can still end up in the hospital or die from it - the risk goes up if you are 65+.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> Yes - some people on the red side have been programmed that masks never were needed and didn’t help.


Half the people I work with think this way and are both anti-mask and anti-vaccine in equal measure. Which is ironic because their anti-vax position is making it worse for their anti-mask goals but they refuse to see it that way.



IndyLions said:


> Both sides think the other side are idiots. Us independents are even worse, we think they’re all idiots


If you want me to believe both sides are equally crazy I'll need some examples of enraged pro-maskers shooting random strangers for refusing to wear a mask.


----------



## dlagrua

I don't try to "rock the boat" If average store bought masks are required for air and train transportation, if it makes them happy I'll wear them. However, they should also explain to us how a std surgical mask designed to stop bacteria particles is going to protect me against viral microbes that are fractions of millionths of an inch in size. I believe that unless you are wearing an N95 mask, the store bought mask variety is absolutely useless against Covid.


----------



## me_little_me

dlagrua said:


> I don't try to "rock the boat" If average store bought masks are required for air and train transportation, if it makes them happy I'll wear them. However, they should also explain to us how a std surgical mask designed to stop bacteria particles is going to protect me against viral microbes that are fractions of millionths of an inch in size. I believe that unless you are wearing an N95 mask, the store bought mask variety is absolutely useless against Covid.


Your mask is primarily to protect others from your exhaling the germs. Since we have not implemented a standard way to determine for sure who has been vaccinated and since even if vaccinated, you can get the virus and spread it to small children, it is not unreasonable to require masks. The virii may be that small but the water droplets in which they travel are not.


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you want me to believe both sides are equally crazy I'll need some examples of enraged pro-maskers shooting random strangers for refusing to wear a mask.



Just convince me you get at least some of your news from sources other than CNN or MSNBC and that would at least prove to me you are trying.

Too many Americans looking through the lens of one viewpoint these days…


----------



## MARC Rider

dlagrua said:


> I don't try to "rock the boat" If average store bought masks are required for air and train transportation, if it makes them happy I'll wear them. However, they should also explain to us how a std surgical mask designed to stop bacteria particles is going to protect me against viral microbes that are fractions of millionths of an inch in size. I believe that unless you are wearing an N95 mask, the store bought mask variety is absolutely useless against Covid.





This was a controlled study where they had people sing or speak into a cone and measured aerosol emissions. Note the boxplots at the far right. The face masks blocked nearly all of the aerosols emitted during loud singing. In fact, the average number of droplets with a face mask on was less than even simple breathing or normal talking. The viruses are found in the droplets and the aerosols. The masks block the droplets and the aerosols. Thus, even though the nominal pore size of the mask material might be greater than the size of the virus particles, the masks are highly effective at blocking viruses.

I don't know why people insist on engaging in all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify not doing something that is clearly beneficial for public health and something that will end the pandemic faster.


----------



## neroden

dlagrua said:


> I don't try to "rock the boat" If average store bought masks are required for air and train transportation, if it makes them happy I'll wear them. However, they should also explain to us how a std surgical mask designed to stop bacteria particles is going to protect me against viral microbes that are fractions of millionths of an inch in size.


Happy to explain. The viruses aren't "naked". They're embedded in small blobs of water (aerosols) and those blobs are large enough that they get stopped by the cloth masks.



> I believe that unless you are wearing an N95 mask, the store bought mask variety is absolutely useless against Covid.


You're wrong. But this was a very common mistake! Many medical professionals were wrong about this too, back in March of 2020. It required a large campaign by aerosol scientists to correct the confusion of the medical community. As I can see, the confusion still persists. Happy to help clear it up.

Here's one good article about the confusion:








The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill


All pandemic long, scientists brawled over how the virus spreads. Droplets! No, aerosols! At the heart of the fight was a teensy error with huge consequences.




www.wired.com


----------



## neroden

IndyLions said:


> Just convince me you get at least some of your news from sources other than CNN or MSNBC and that would at least prove to me you are trying.
> 
> Too many Americans looking through the lens of one viewpoint these days…



I got my news from sources like Medscape:









Arguments Against Aerosol Transmission Don't Hold Water


The relative importance of aerosols as a mode of transmission for COVID-19 is widely debated. This aerosol scientist explains why the arguments against it are weak or invalid.



www.medscape.com





Convinced yet?


----------



## jebr

We've hidden some off-topic posts, along with posts that devolved into a virtual argument between a few posters. A few reminders:

Sarcasm does not translate well into the online world, especially in text form. If you must use sarcasm, please indicate it with a "/s", "/sarcasm", or an appropriate emoji to help make things clearer.
Please assume good intentions from other posters on the site. Most people on here want to have productive conversations and are not intentionally trying to attack other members. Never accuse another member of trying to "troll" a member, especially publicly.
If you come across a post where you believe the member is trolling or otherwise breaking our rules, please _do not engage the poster_ and _report the post, via the "report" button on the post._ We generally review posts within a couple of hours, though it can take up to 24 hours for us to come to a firm conclusion.
Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## daybeers

I took the Metro-North Harlem Line from Brewster, NY to GCT and back yesterday for the NYC Pride festival. I've been on several (usually small) train trips since the start of the pandemic, and this was by far the most patronized one. I haven't ridden an Amtrak train since they went to full capacity (not on purpose, just a coincidence), but on this 8-car M7 train, I'd say 80-85% of seats were taken both ways. Median age was probably 25 or younger. Mask compliance, however, was about 75% and the MN conductors made announcements but didn't say anything to those passengers not wearing masks. There were even whole groups of 6 or 8 not wearing them.  Frustrates me because there are many who can't get the vaccine for health reasons and/or are immunocompromised. I did my duty and got the vaccine. Sometimes I go into stores and don't wear a mask (if they allow it). I frankly don't care whether the other passengers are fully vaccinated or not, you wear the mask for others, not yourself, and it's a federal mandate. The MTA has done a fantastic ad campaign with those yellow signs with cartoonish faces. COVID is far from over and I don't want to scare away riders because some people can't wear a piece of fabric for less than two hours.

Some essential places that have removed their mask requirements at least have other options, like curbside pickup or delivery. For transportation, however, what's the other option?

Thousands in NYC for the festival. Was nice to see the city coming alive again. GCT was fairly crowded for a Sunday morning. Some of the subway lines were fairly crowded. Highly recommend Bareburger in Queens, about 7 minute walk from the Broadway stop on the N & W lines.

Those M7s are pretty awesome. I don't ride EMUs much and they are in a different world than 20-year old diesels hauling heavy coaches.


----------



## IndyLions

neroden said:


> I got my news from sources like Medscape:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arguments Against Aerosol Transmission Don't Hold Water
> 
> 
> The relative importance of aerosols as a mode of transmission for COVID-19 is widely debated. This aerosol scientist explains why the arguments against it are weak or invalid.
> 
> 
> 
> www.medscape.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Convinced yet?



My position has never been that masks weren’t absolutely necessary during the pandemic. They were our best defense when people were unable to social distance and prior to the wide rollout of the vaccines. Masks are still critical in many parts of the world.

But in late June 2021 in the US, having fully vaccinated, non-immunocompromised adults wearing masks does nothing _*statistically relevant*_ towards ending the pandemic sooner.

The 30-40% of Americans who haven’t been vaccinated are the statistical elephant in the room. At best - the vaccinated wearing masks is round-off error as far as increased risk goes.

Now as far as your position - I’m convinced from your posts that you are very concerned about the current state of the pandemic. Also from your posts I’ve gathered that either yourself or a loved one are immunocompromized. That makes it perfectly understandable that you would hesitate to travel in public. I also feel bad that herd immunity will likely not be achieved. But that will never be achieved with masks - only with vaccines.


----------



## IndyLions

daybeers said:


> I took the Metro-North Harlem Line from Brewster, NY to GCT and back yesterday for the NYC Pride festival. I've been on several (usually small) train trips since the start of the pandemic, and this was by far the most patronized one. I haven't ridden an Amtrak train since they went to full capacity (not on purpose, just a coincidence), but on this 8-car M7 train, I'd say 80-85% of seats were taken both ways. Median age was probably 25 or younger. Mask compliance, however, was about 75% and the MN conductors made announcements but didn't say anything to those passengers not wearing masks. There were even whole groups of 6 or 8 not wearing them.  Frustrates me because there are many who can't get the vaccine for health reasons and/or are immunocompromised. I did my duty and got the vaccine. Sometimes I go into stores and don't wear a mask (if they allow it). I frankly don't care whether the other passengers are fully vaccinated or not, you wear the mask for others, not yourself, and it's a federal mandate. The MTA has done a fantastic ad campaign with those yellow signs with cartoonish faces. COVID is far from over and I don't want to scare away riders because some people can't wear a piece of fabric for less than two hours.
> 
> Some essential places that have removed their mask requirements at least have other options, like curbside pickup or delivery. For transportation, however, what's the other option?



I agree this is a bummer. Whatever the rules are, whether we agree with them or not – it is our duty to continue wearing masks where they are mandated.

Really no different than any other law. And like many other laws, they are not universally enforced.


----------



## dlagrua

neroden said:


> Happy to explain. The viruses aren't "naked". They're embedded in small blobs of water (aerosols) and those blobs are large enough that they get stopped by the cloth masks.
> You're wrong. But this was a very common mistake! Many medical professionals were wrong about this too, back in March of 2020. It required a large campaign by aerosol scientists to correct the confusion of the medical community. As I can see, the confusion still persists. Happy to help clear it up. Here's one good article about the confusion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill
> 
> 
> All pandemic long, scientists brawled over how the virus spreads. Droplets! No, aerosols! At the heart of the fight was a teensy error with huge consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wired.com


That explanation sounds logical to me and provides some confidence that masks can help. Wearing a mask was never the issue on this end. It was whether or not they offered the needed protection. In my wife's hospital (shes a nurse) 50 nurses and staff contracted Covid and all wore masks. When I look at that situation, I say the jury is still out on this end. As for Amtrak, if they want masks, I will ride with one.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

dlagrua said:


> In my wife's hospital (shes a nurse) 50 nurses and staff contracted Covid and all wore masks.



Masks won’t 100% stop the virus... neither does the vaccine.

Masks will help reduce the spread. The vaccine helps to protect you from catching it and if you do catch it, it helps keep you out of the hospital.


----------



## jebr

Looks like some US senators are asking the CDC and TSA for an update on the transportation mask mandate, especially for vaccinated passengers. Press release from Sen. Klobuchar's office:



> _Citing new guidance for vaccinated people, senators request more information on process for updating travel guidance_
> 
> _“If the requirement for wearing masks while traveling can be safely lifted and would serve the public health interest, then we believe it would benefit the traveling public”_​
> Washington – U.S. Senators Amy Klobuchar (D-MN), Brian Schatz (D-HI), Roger Wicker (R-MS), Susan Collins (R-ME), and Jerry Moran (R-KS) sent a letter to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) requesting more information on when and how the agencies will update their travel guidance for vaccinated people. In the letter, the senators expressed support for measures to prevent the spread of coronavirus while also highlighting that the CDC’s guidance on face masks for fully vaccinated people has evolved as new data has become available.
> 
> *“The CDC’s guidance on face masks for fully vaccinated people has evolved as new data have become available and as more individuals are vaccinated. In May, the CDC announced new guidance that fully vaccinated individuals could resume activities without wearing a mask or staying six feet apart. At that time, the CDC said that it would continue to update its guidance for travel as the science emerges and that it would need to collaborate with other agencies as the face mask requirement is an interagency policy,” *the senators wrote.
> 
> They continued:* “As there has not yet been any change in the requirement for masks while traveling, we request an update on the CDC’s and TSA’s process for updating the mask requirement for fully vaccinated individuals and what the science is showing about the transmission of COVID-19 for fully vaccinated individuals while traveling.”*


----------



## Abe26

Finally someone doing about this stupid mask mandate. 
Its about time to lift it. 
A lot of people once they are in the seats don't have it on


----------



## Exvalley

The World Health Organization is encouraging fully vaccinated people to wear masks due to the Delta (a.k.a. Indian) variant. 









WHO urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads


"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," WHO official Dr. Mariangela Simao told reporters.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## jiml

I wonder if some of the confusion and disagreement over continuing mask use is the result of conflicting messaging from politicians and health officials? On the one hand politicians of all stripes suggest no need for masks after a second shot, but then are contradicted minutes later by health people saying "not so fast", as pointed out by @Exvalley above. In Canada it sounds like masks are going to be around for a very long time in spite of vaccination status. One medical "talking head" on the news the other night was advocating they be made mandatory during every flu season. I'd be very surprised to see the restrictions eased on public transportation anytime soon - and we'll be well behind the US lead.


----------



## Abe26

Exvalley said:


> The World Health Organization is encouraging fully vaccinated people to wear masks due to the Delta (a.k.a. Indian) variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads
> 
> 
> "People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," WHO official Dr. Mariangela Simao told reporters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Will never trust that organization again


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> Just convince me you get at least some of your news from sources other than CNN or MSNBC and that would at least prove to me you are trying. Too many Americans looking through the lens of one viewpoint these days…


So are you saying you have no examples of pro-maskers shooting anyone or are you saying you refuse to believe anyone has been shot by anti-maskers?



Abe26 said:


> Will never trust that organization again


This might have meant something if there was any evidence you ever trusted them before.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

IndyLions said:


> Just convince me you get at least some of your news from sources other than CNN or MSNBC and that would at least prove to me you are trying.
> 
> Too many Americans looking through the lens of one viewpoint these days…


Sorry if I missed it. Please provide us with your news sources.


----------



## Cal

I don't mind wearing the mask, doesn't bother me that much. Keep them on!


----------



## enviro5609

The WHO is giving its guidance to the entire world, where the overwhelming majority are not vaccinated. 

In the US, we are fortunate enough to have reached a high enough vaccination level to allow masks to be optional, hence the CDC guidance.

They aren’t contradictory, just for different audiences. It’s easy to think this thing is over, but most of the world is still where the US was back in Dec-Jan. when it comes to vaccinations.


----------



## Bob Dylan

enviro5609 said:


> The WHO is giving its guidance to the entire world, where the overwhelming majority are not vaccinated.
> 
> In the US, we are fortunate enough to have reached a high enough vaccination level to allow masks to be optional, hence the CDC guidance.
> 
> They aren’t contradictory, just for different audiences. It’s easy to think this thing is over, but most of the world is still where the US was back in Dec-Jan. when it comes to vaccinations.


True this, but it's still a jungle out there, and with the 4th Holiday upcoming, the Young and the Stupid will spread it all over, even to people who have been Vaccinated!

I'll still wear my Mask( I was Vaccinated in Jan and am tested Weekly) around Crowds, inside places and where it is Mandatory( ie on Public Transportstion).


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> So are you saying you have no examples of pro-maskers shooting anyone or are you saying you refuse to believe anyone has been shot by anti-maskers?



No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies.

If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies.

Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.


----------



## Tlcooper93

IndyLions said:


> No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies.
> 
> If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies.
> 
> Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.



Agreed on this one.
This is a big country, and grouping a large sum of people together and painting them in one light is utterly unhelpful. All humans are complex, and therefore have complex reasons for doing just about anything. 

We all had different experiences with the pandemic, and it effected each of us differently. We are all going to have different opinions on who and what to trust, especially since some of the traditionally trustworthy agencies and individuals have proven themselves untrustworthy at various points in the last year.

I see no problem wearing masks on planes and trains for now. While I don't think its unreasonable to re-evaluate their effectiveness at this point in the pandemic, it is also not unreasonable to ask us to continue using them.


----------



## JayPea

Tlcooper93 said:


> Agreed on this one.
> This is a big country, and grouping a large sum of people together and painting them in one light is utterly unhelpful. All humans are complex, and therefore have complex reasons for doing just about anything.
> 
> We all had different experiences with the pandemic, and it effected each of us differently. We are all going to have different opinions on who and what to trust, especially since some of the traditionally trustworthy agencies and individuals have proven themselves untrustworthy at various points in the last year.
> 
> I see no problem wearing masks on planes and trains for now. While I don't think its unreasonable to re-evaluate their effectiveness at this point in the pandemic, it is also not unreasonable to ask us to continue using them.


You make entirely too much sense. I am in total agreement. From day 1 of the pandemic, I didn't, and still don't, see what good calling people whose opinions differ all sorts of names. Call those who don't get vaccinated or wear masks covidiots? If I were already antagonistic about the vaccine or the mask, calling me insulting names is sure going to make me change my mind. (For the record, I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask when a business requires me to do do). And call me a sheeple for wearing a mask?? Sure. I'll rip that thing right off. 

I get the frustration especially on the part of vaccinated folks and those who wear masks toward those who aren't and don't but insulting such folks does no good at all.


----------



## flitcraft

One problem with ending mask mandates is that there are plenty of immunocompromised folks out there who are still susceptible to infection, not to mention kids who can't get vaccinated yet. I wish I could trust non-vaccinated people to voluntarily mask up to protect those who can't protect themselves, but it appears that too many of them will not mask regardless. We took our granddaughter to a bouncy-castle indoor playground which advertised that all of their staff was fully vaccinated. Yet, during the day there, one of the staff admitted to me that she wasn't really vaccinated, but that she wasn't particularly worried about COVID herself and that she just told her employer that she was vaccinated to keep her job. We left once I knew that, but it made me realize that trusting people to be honest about their status is probably unrealistic, unfortunately.


----------



## Barb Stout

dlagrua said:


> That explanation sounds logical to me and provides some confidence that masks can help. Wearing a mask was never the issue on this end. It was whether or not they offered the needed protection. In my wife's hospital (shes a nurse) 50 nurses and staff contracted Covid and all wore masks. When I look at that situation, I say the jury is still out on this end. As for Amtrak, if they want masks, I will ride with one.


There was speculation that some of these cases were from staff eating in the lunchroom/lounge. Can't eat with a mask and hard to ask people to work 12 hours without eating.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Barb Stout said:


> There was speculation that some of these cases were from staff eating in the lunchroom/lounge. Can't eat with a mask and hard to ask people to work 12 hours without eating.



That’s what I never understood about restaurants being open with indoor seating. Does the virus say “oh no they are eating, we don’t want to bother them, let’s come back later”


----------



## Exvalley

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s what I never understood about restaurants being open with indoor seating. Does the virus say “oh no they are eating, we don’t want to bother them, let’s come back later”



Much to my surprise, the chief epidemiologist in my state said that he could count the number of Covid infections transmitted to diners in restaurants on one hand. We are a small state but that is still pretty shocking.


----------



## Barb Stout

Exvalley said:


> Much to my surprise, the chief epidemiologist in my state said that he could count the number of Covid infections transmitted to diners in restaurants on one hand. We are a small state but that is still pretty shocking.


What is your state? In mine, the state instituted what was called a "rapid response" which entailed Covid19 testing of all the employees at businesses when there was a positive Covid19 case. For awhile most of those rapid responses were restaurants.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies. If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies. Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.


To me there are different kinds of crazy and different levels of impact but a devout centrist is inclined to see all sides as equally crazy or sane no matter what they do. Some may think that splitting the difference brings us closer to the truth but it can also make us a slave to the Overton window. Instead of swaying my opinion with superior sources and subject comprehension you keep attacking a straw man argument about media bias and accountability.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: A few posts were removed because they were either too political, off topic, unfriendly, etc. 

Please try to keep your comments on the topic of the Amtrak Mask Mandate (and avoid partisan political statements). Thank you for your cooperation.

Thank you to those who filed reports. Staff appreciates the input since we are unable to read every post.


----------



## Qapla

Thank You Penny. 

The work of the Moderators is much appreciated


----------



## Exvalley

Barb Stout said:


> What is your state? In mine, the state instituted what was called a "rapid response" which entailed Covid19 testing of all the employees at businesses when there was a positive Covid19 case. For awhile most of those rapid responses were restaurants.


There was quite a bit of transmission among kitchen staff, but nearly no transmission among diners.


----------



## nuger93

PaTrainFan said:


> This is disappointing. While I fully understand the efficacy of mask wearing I hate to do it because I have yet to figure how to wear one without steaming up my glasses, which is one reason I don't put myself into situations where I need to wear one for any length of time. But, there's still roomettes, when available.


I figured out, the trick was to get ones with longer metal pieces in the nose than you get in store bought ones (many of mine are etsy based masks now because of this, then I popped the stitch, put in my legit charcoal filter like you'd find inside an N-95 filter, and then sew it back up. Now that the metals wearing out, they are back to fogging.


----------



## Danib62

N95 respirators don’t use charcoal filters, they typically use melt-blown polypropylene that’s electrostaticly charged.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I had the glasses steaming problem bigtime until someone taught me how to fit the metal wire carefully around my nose. 

You can also buy anti-steam spray for your lenses, which helps a lot.


----------



## neroden

IndyLions said:


> My position has never been that masks weren’t absolutely necessary during the pandemic. They were our best defense when people were unable to social distance and prior to the wide rollout of the vaccines. Masks are still critical in many parts of the world.
> 
> But in late June 2021 in the US, having fully vaccinated, non-immunocompromised adults wearing masks does nothing _*statistically relevant*_ towards ending the pandemic sooner.
> 
> The 30-40% of Americans who haven’t been vaccinated are the statistical elephant in the room. At best - the vaccinated wearing masks is round-off error as far as increased risk goes.



This is *FALSE*, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false *BECAUSE* of the large number of unvaccinated people.

My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.

We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only **64% effective** at preventing **infection which can lead to transmission** with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).

The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... *but they can still infect others.*

So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then **about 1/3 of them** are **catching the disease and transmitting it to others**. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.

Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means **wear your damn mask*.*

You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. ***Vaccinated people can be carriers*** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.

Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.

Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.









Israel to reinstate indoor mask mandate next week as COVID-19 cases keep rising


Virus czar Ash warns latest outbreak has spread to Kfar Saba, Ramla, Herzliya and other cities, pleads with public not to travel abroad, especially with unvaccinated children




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Brian Battuello

Thanks again for that. Amazing to what extent people will go to try to justify not wearing masks. Just walk by a playground and look at dozens of unvaccinated children. And despite being vaccinated, I have a 36% chance of catching it and passing it on to them, even if I feel fine. Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse. 

As of July 1, over 4 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.

If your TV tells you that you have the right to put children into a hospital, stick a tube down their throat, and possibly die, you might want to get your news from another source.


----------



## PVD




----------



## IndyLions

neroden said:


> This is *FALSE*, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false *BECAUSE* of the large number of unvaccinated people.
> 
> My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.
> 
> We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only **64% effective** at preventing **infection which can lead to transmission** with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).
> 
> The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... *but they can still infect others.*
> 
> So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then **about 1/3 of them** are **catching the disease and transmitting it to others**. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.
> 
> Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means **wear your damn mask*.*
> 
> You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. ***Vaccinated people can be carriers*** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.
> 
> Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.
> 
> Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel to reinstate indoor mask mandate next week as COVID-19 cases keep rising
> 
> 
> Virus czar Ash warns latest outbreak has spread to Kfar Saba, Ramla, Herzliya and other cities, pleads with public not to travel abroad, especially with unvaccinated children
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com



You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.

I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.

The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.

So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.


----------



## Tlcooper93

IndyLions said:


> You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.
> 
> I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.
> 
> The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.
> 
> So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.



Im afraid I’m in agreement with this.
There are still far too many unknowns about how any of this works to say anything with direct condescension.


----------



## IndyLions

Brian Battuello said:


> …Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse….



Thats just silly rhetoric - and just like condescension - does nothing to convince people of anything. Definitely not “How to win friends and influence people”. People who already agree with you will love it though!


----------



## Ryan

IndyLions said:


> You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.
> 
> I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.
> 
> The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.
> 
> So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.


By all means then…. Present us with your evidence that the statistics that he posted are incorrect.

Even if I were to accept your contention that “we just can’t possibly know which facts are correct”, then the prudent course of action is to just wear the damn mask. If it turns out that it didn’t help much, nothing of value is lost. Your “I’ll wear the mask only when forced to” is why we have 600,000 dead bodies at this point.

You can choose to not be convinced, but you can also choose not to act like a fool.


----------



## neroden

I mean, hell, maybe the vaccine is more effective at preventing transmission than that one Israeli study. But even if it's 95% effective, that's still 5% of vaccinated people who might be carriers who are transmitting -- 1 out of 20! Why not wear a mask in public and so make sure you *aren't* transmitting? It's the harmless, safe, no-real-loss option.


----------



## IndyLions

Ryan said:


> You can choose to not be convinced, but you can also choose not to act like a fool.



OK - now I know why Bill Maher (of all people) recently said - “that’s why people hate liberals”. 

I haven’t acted like a fool. I have worn a mask everywhere mandated from day one. I got vaccinated at the earliest possible time allowed for my age group. I have argued (overzealously at times) with everyone I care about to get vaccinated ASAP.

I just had the audacity to state that I wasn’t convinced that masking up vaccinated people is going to end the pandemic any sooner - since such a large percentage of Americans have made it clear they’re not getting vaccinated anytime soon.

In regards to the “where’s *your* statistics” argument - I have stated plainly that I am not going to get into a Covid statistics war - because (in my opinion) it’s pointless.

And anyone who reads my posts here would know - I am far from a conservative. I am about as middle of the road as they come. If anything, four years of Trump has caused me to currently lean pretty far left.

If you can’t put forth an argument other than - “we’re right and you’re stupid - and here’s our statistics to prove it” - then we’ll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> This is *FALSE*, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false *BECAUSE* of the large number of unvaccinated people.
> 
> My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.
> 
> We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only **64% effective** at preventing **infection which can lead to transmission** with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).
> 
> The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... *but they can still infect others.*
> 
> So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then **about 1/3 of them** are **catching the disease and transmitting it to others**. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.
> 
> Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means **wear your damn mask*.*
> 
> You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. ***Vaccinated people can be carriers*** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.
> 
> Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.
> 
> Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel to reinstate indoor mask mandate next week as COVID-19 cases keep rising
> 
> 
> Virus czar Ash warns latest outbreak has spread to Kfar Saba, Ramla, Herzliya and other cities, pleads with public not to travel abroad, especially with unvaccinated children
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


While the general gist of neroden's post is absolutely correct, the numerical implication is a bit off.

Assuming these estimates of "vaccine effectiveness" are calculated similar to that of the clinical trials, when they say that the vaccine is "64% effective at preventing infection" that means that the if, say, if the overall infection rate is _x, _then those who are vaccinated will get infected at a rate of 36% compared to those who aren't vaccinated. Even in hotspots, the total rate of infection among the total population is pretty small, so it's not like you have a 36% chance of being infected even if you're vaccinated and unmasked. If the infection rate is, say, 1% of the total population, then an unmasked vaccinated person's chance of being infected is 1% of 36% (0.01x0.36) or 0.0036, or 0.36%. Thus, even if you're not wearing a mask, your chances of getting infected are fairly low. However, bear in mind that 0.36% of 300 million people is almost 11 million people, so even if everyone was vaccinated, a lot of people could still get infected. Even if people don't get really sick, this gives the virus more chances to mutate to new variants that might be more of a problem. 

Now I don't have off the top of my head the experimental and epidemiological data that quantify the beneficial effect of mask wearing, but the one experimental study I did read about aerosols suggested that masks reduce the number of aerosol particles roughly 5-fold. (I.e., wear a mask, emit 1/5th the # of aerosol particles). If the reduction in aerosol particles is linearly related to the reduction in infections, then wearing a mask would reduce the infection rate by 80%. This would be .01 x .036 x .2 or 0.000072 or .0072%. This means that the 11 million people who might get infected from asymptomatic unmasked vaccinated people would be reduced to 2.2 million if these people were all masked. (This is not counting the protective aspect that wearing a mask offers to the mask-wearer which also reduces infection rates.) 

While this means you don't have a 36% chance of catching the virus if your vaccinated and unmasked, so there's no need to totally freak out about the Israeli reports, it does mean, as neroden wrote, "vaccinated people can be carriers" at a rate higher than previously thought. Thus, we need to do more to break the chain of transmission. One of the best ways to do that is to wear a mask indoors in crowded places, even if you're vaccinated. I would think that being in an Amtrak train would count as being "indoors in a crowded place," especially now that they're selling all the seats with apparently the train consists are still shorter than usual. I'm not sure what the problem is in having a mask requirement as a tradeoff to allow other activities to be able to go on as normal.

As I've said before, I really don't understand why some people are being obstinate about this. Wearing a mask is no big deal. If we really want to go back to "normal" (whatever that is), wearing a mask is something that just has to be done.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> While the general gist of neroden's post is absolutely correct, the numerical implication is a bit off.
> 
> Assuming these estimates of "vaccine effectiveness" are calculated similar to that of the clinical trials, when they say that the vaccine is "64% effective at preventing infection" that means that the if, say, if the overall infection rate is _x, _then those who are vaccinated will get infected at a rate of 36% compared to those who aren't vaccinated. Even in hotspots, the total rate of infection among the total population is pretty small, so it's not like you have a 36% chance of being infected even if you're vaccinated and unmasked. If the infection rate is, say, 1% of the total population, then an unmasked vaccinated person's chance of being infected is 1% of 36% (0.01x0.36) or 0.0036, or 0.36%. Thus, even if you're not wearing a mask, your chances of getting infected are fairly low. However, bear in mind that 0.36% of 300 million people is almost 11 million people, so even if everyone was vaccinated, a lot of people could still get infected. Even if people don't get really sick, this gives the virus more chances to mutate to new variants that might be more of a problem.
> 
> Now I don't have off the top of my head the experimental and epidemiological data that quantify the beneficial effect of mask wearing, but the one experimental study I did read about aerosols suggested that masks reduce the number of aerosol particles roughly 5-fold. (I.e., wear a mask, emit 1/5th the # of aerosol particles). If the reduction in aerosol particles is linearly related to the reduction in infections, then wearing a mask would reduce the infection rate by 80%. This would be .01 x .036 x .2 or 0.000072 or .0072%. This means that the 11 million people who might get infected from asymptomatic unmasked vaccinated people would be reduced to 2.2 million if these people were all masked. (This is not counting the protective aspect that wearing a mask offers to the mask-wearer which also reduces infection rates.)
> 
> While this means you don't have a 36% chance of catching the virus if your vaccinated and unmasked, so there's no need to totally freak out about the Israeli reports, it does mean, as neroden wrote, "vaccinated people can be carriers" at a rate higher than previously thought. Thus, we need to do more to break the chain of transmission. One of the best ways to do that is to wear a mask indoors in crowded places, even if you're vaccinated. I would think that being in an Amtrak train would count as being "indoors in a crowded place," especially now that they're selling all the seats with apparently the train consists are still shorter than usual. I'm not sure what the problem is in having a mask requirement as a tradeoff to allow other activities to be able to go on as normal.
> 
> As I've said before, I really don't understand why some people are being obstinate about this. Wearing a mask is no big deal. If we really want to go back to "normal" (whatever that is), wearing a mask is something that just has to be done.


Yeah, what he said.


----------



## me_little_me

> Thanks again for that. Amazing to what extent people will go to try to justify not wearing masks. Just walk by a playground and look at dozens of unvaccinated children. And despite being vaccinated, I have a 36% chance of catching it and passing it on to them, even if I feel fine. Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse.
> 
> As of July 1, over 4 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.
> 
> If your TV tells you that you have the right to put children into a hospital, stick a tube down their throat, and possibly die, you might want to get your news from another source.


Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

First, you or I DO NOT have a 36% chance of catching it and passing it on to them, even if you feel fine. You are just inventing statistics. Please don't help them.

IF you get close enough to catch it from someone who is contagious and IF they spread their germs to you and IF it takes hold and IF you then get to close to and spread your germs to and IF you pass it on to a child, they MAY get the disease. But if you have at least half a brain (which you proved you had when you got vaccinated), you'd probably tend to avoid situations like that and take care to wash hands and avoid touching your face IF there is virus on your hands and avoid kids if you exhibit symptoms.

And because a vaccinated person feels they don't need to wear a mask in most situations, that doesn't make them guilty of child abuse. That statement is unworthy of even the no-brainers on the other side.

All you have done is given the other side more "evidence" that those of us who believe in vaccines and masks are as dumb as they are.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s what I never understood about restaurants being open with indoor seating. Does the virus say “oh no they are eating, we don’t want to bother them, let’s come back later”


The restaurants with indoor seating that I've seen have (1) increased the space between tables, (2) erected partitions between tables, and (3) modified and increased ventilation of the space. All of these reduce aerosol spread between groups of diners.


----------



## MARC Rider

Brian Battuello said:


> Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse.



Uh, that's a little over the top. For one thing, there isn't a 1-to-1 relationship between not wearing a mask and infecting a child. For another thing, my understanding is that children who get infected get less sick than older adults. Given that seniors are more at risk for serious life-threatening infections, one might say that not wearing a mask would be more likely construed as "elder abuse," though , of course, that's over the top, too. Also, the risk of not wearing a mask might be that it's the asymptomatic infected child that infects to non-mask-wearing adult.

Of course, it's not good to have lots of asymptomatic infected children running around, as they will pass the virus on to adults as well as children.

The most accurate thing to say about refusal to wear masks is that it's irresponsible. If I were an employer, refusal to wear a mask and, especially, speaking forcefully about it, would be something that would make me look negatively towards a job applicant or employee.


----------



## Tlcooper93

MARC Rider said:


> As I've said before, I really don't understand why some people are being obstinate about this. Wearing a mask is no big deal. If we really want to go back to "normal" (whatever that is), wearing a mask is something that just has to be done.



That said, I do believe there is a difference between having a controversial belief (such as thinking it’s possible to re-evaluate mask’s effectiveness at this point in the pandemic), and still conceding that you could be wrong and still mask up regardless.

I think people jumping on IndyLions for simply positing the possibility of alternate interpretation that _could _end up being true with hindsight, is just as foolish, especially as he gracefully reiterated that he masks up.


----------



## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> That said, I do believe there is a difference between having a controversial belief (such as thinking it’s possible to re-evaluate masks effectiveness at this point in the pandemic), and still conceding that you could be wrong and still mask up regardless.
> 
> I think people jumping on IndyLions for simply positing the possibility of alternate interpretation that _could _end up being true with hindsight, is just as foolish


The problem is is that the controversial belief wasn't backed up with any good evidence to support it. If there's one thing that really annoys me, it's controversy for the sake of controversy. It's the bane of modern discourse.


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## Tlcooper93

MARC Rider said:


> The problem is is that the controversial belief wasn't backed up with any good evidence to support it. If there's one thing that really annoys me, it's controversy for the sake of controversy. It's the bane of modern discourse.



fair enough, but you were far more graceful than others in your version of discourse.

given that no one here is an expert in the field, IndyLion’s opinion is worth about as much to me as other’s opinions (my own included).

I plan on masking up till the end, but I’m not going to be a jerk and jump on people for merely _wondering _if it’s still useful.


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## AmtrakBlue

Tlcooper93 said:


> That said, I do believe there is a difference between having a controversial belief (such as thinking it’s possible to re-evaluate mask’s effectiveness at this point in the pandemic), and still conceding that you could be wrong and still mask up regardless.
> 
> I think people jumping on IndyLions for simply positing the possibility of alternate interpretation that _could _end up being true with hindsight, is just as foolish, especially as he gracefully reiterated that he masks up.


He said he masks up ONLY if it’s mandated. Others are saying we should mask up even if it isn’t mandated (follow the science, not the politicians  ).
I waited 3 weeks after my state’s mandate was relaxed. I wanted to see if the #’s were still dropping or holding steady - and not going up again. I’m still watching the numbers and they have gone back up a little but not enough yet for me to start wearing my mask more often. I do avoid crowded indoor places. And I carry a mask with me in case I find myself in a crowded area.


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## Ryan

IndyLions said:


> If you can’t put forth an argument other than - “we’re right and you’re stupid - and here’s our statistics to prove it” - then we’ll have to agree to disagree.


That's a gross mischaracterization of the argument put forward. Nathaniel put forward an argument with facts and data. You put forth an argument with nothing other than "I don't believe that, so I'm not going to wear a mask unless the government tells me that I have to".

One of these arguments is based in reality. The other has nothing behind it. Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with it as you've unintentionally proven by claiming to be a liberal-leaning moderate but still making a factually deficient argument. There are fools and science deniers everywhere on the political spectrum, along with people that can look at data, make logical conclusions and think for themselves for a minute. 

I'm not saying that you have to wear a mask everywhere. But there are absolutely situations where they are warranted, even if the government isn't requiring them at the moment.


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## Exvalley

Ryan said:


> *Nathaniel put forward an argument with facts and data.* You put forth an argument with nothing other than "I don't believe that, so I'm not going to wear a mask unless the government tells me that I have to".
> 
> *One of these arguments is based in reality.*


To be fair, according to MARC Rider, Nathaniel's argument grossly overstated the likelihood of becoming infected when he said this:


neroden said:


> So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then **about 1/3 of them** are **catching the disease and transmitting it to others**.



So, no, one of the arguments was not "based in reality" inasmuch as that is a HUGE error. I would hate to see policy being made based on an error like that. The overall point is valid, though. Vaccines are not 100% effective and mask wearing still helps.

Personally, I see no harm in wearing a mask for the time being when social distancing cannot be maintained. On the other hand, I have no problem if someone chooses not to wear a mask if the rules do not require the wearing of a mask - even if it would be my personal preference that they wear a mask.

The only thing I know for certain is that scientists will spend many years unpacking the data to determine if our response to the pandemic was the most effective.


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## jis

The thing that people forget is that in all Security and Safety protocols, there are multiple layers precisely because no single layer does it all. The example given is that of many layers of Swiss Cheese. Fewer layers leaves a few holes, a single layer leaves some big holes, but well structured sufficient number of layers blocks most if not all holes. 

Masks are one of the layers in the safety protocol. If you avoid it you leave a few additional holes in your armor. Same with vaccines and various other protection measures.

At the end of the day others will do whatever they will do. All that each individual can do is protect one self and do prudent things to protect others from oneself, usually in that order of priority. If someone refuses to protect oneself it is not clear what can be done in a liberal permissive society.


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## Danib62

Just to clear one thing up, if a vaccine is 67% effective, that doesn't mean that 33% of people who are vaccinated will get COVID. It means that there are 67% fewer COVID cases amongst vaccinated people than amongst non-vaccinated.

For example if you have a group of 1000 unvaccinated people and in a given time period 100 get COVID it means that all other things being equal in a group of 1000 vaccinated people only 33 will get COVID (a 67% reduction in the number of cases).


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## Ryan

Exvalley said:


> The overall point is valid, though. Vaccines are not 100% effective and mask wearing still helps.


Yes, the numbers were off but as you note the overall point remains valid. Still far more convincing than the complete lack of anything on the other side of the coin.



Exvalley said:


> On the other hand, I have no problem if someone chooses not to wear a mask if the rules do not require the wearing of a mask


That's where we differ. If we're in a situation where masks are important, and I'm there with my (masked) masked 9 year old that can't be vaccinated, I'm going to have a big problem with you not wearing a mask as well. Easily avoided by mostly avoiding the situation altogether, but it be great if people were a little less selfish and thought of others when making their decisions.


----------



## Exvalley

Ryan said:


> If we're in a situation where masks are important, and I'm there with my (masked) masked 9 year old that can't be vaccinated, I'm going to have a big problem with you not wearing a mask as well.


Notice that I said, "If the rules do not require the wearing of a mask."

I have an issue telling someone off if, at the end of the day, they are abiding by the rules. I may not like it, but the rules are what they are - and aren't what they aren't.


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## Asher




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## Qapla

Just because there is not a "mandate" to wear a mask - that is totally different from there being a "No Masks Allowed" rule. 

In the event of no mandate - one can opt to wear one anyway. There does not have to be a mandate to be considerate of others and do all we can to stop the spread of C-19.

Think of it this way - if there was a 4-way intersection with a traffic light and the light quit working and there were no stop signs or any one there directing traffic - would we just drive through without looking or even slowing down because "there was no traffic light anymore" ... or, would we still use caution?


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## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> Think of it this way - if there was a 4-way intersection with a traffic light and the light quit working and there were no stop signs or any one there directing traffic - would we just drive through without looking or even slowing down because "there was no traffic light anymore" ... or, would we still use caution?


That could get you a ticket. I believe all states have standardized that a non-working light is to be treated as a all-way stop sign.

Update: Per Michigan State Police, they say it should be considered a "four way yield" in that state. Fat chance of people doing that.


----------



## IndyLions

There has been some good discourse here - some good food for thought for sure.

The biggest issue I have with these arguments is that we end up assuming the worst of each other.

Ryan - rest assured that I am fully aware that children like your 9yo have not been vaccinated - and if I’m in a situation where social distancing is not an option or if I will be around a number of children - I will be masked up whether or not it is mandated. I stated that I always wear a mask when mandated - I didn’t state that I ONLY wear a mask when mandated. But I understand your assumption, even if it was wrong.

Neroden - my main issue with your argument were not your facts, but the way you presented them. That being said, I have written snarky and condescending posts before, so it would be completely hypocritical of me to pretend otherwise. I think you’re a smart guy, I respect your opinion - and I know for a fact that you’re passionate about the subject. 

After hearing some well stated arguments, (looking at you MARC) - I do now agree that it is too early to lift the transportation mask mandate.

Will I be wearing a mask everywhere I go in public? In my case, no. But I will continue to be prepared to react appropriately if the situation around me changes.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm really hoping that Presidenf Biden and Congress will extend the Mask Mandate on Public Transportation at least till the Spring of 2022.

There's still far too many Unvaccinated People, the Delta Variant is spreading like Wild Fire among the Unvaccinated,Travel is booming, folks are acting like the Pandemic is over when it's not, and School will start in August with Millions of Un-vaccinated Youngsters returning to the Classrooms.

Even if the Mandate was to expire and not be renewed, I would still Wear my Mask when traveling unless I was in a Sleeper Room or Eating and Drinking while Socially Distanced from those I don't know.


----------



## Qapla

me_little_me said:


> That could get you a ticket. I believe all states have standardized that a non-working light is to be treated as a all-way stop sign



That may be - however, I doubt that our first thought if we came to such an intersection would be avoiding a ticket. Most of us would react out of concern for our safety and take the proper steps to insure the safety of us and others without knowing or thinking about the legality of the matter.


----------



## neroden

IndyLions said:


> I just had the audacity to state that I wasn’t convinced that masking up vaccinated people is going to end the pandemic any sooner - since such a large percentage of Americans have made it clear they’re not getting vaccinated anytime soon.



OK, so my perspective might explain why I'm angry about this.

Masking up vaccinated people will end the pandemic sooner *where I live. *

It'll end it sooner here in Ithaca, NY (Tompkins County) where we have a pretty high rate of vaccination -- one of the highest in the country! -- but practically everyone has abandoned their masks and are having large indoor gatherings now.

Of course once the vaccinated people removed their masks, the vaccine-refusing jackasses are removing their masks and pretending to be vaccinated.

With our rate of vaccination, if people kept wearing masks, we could actually get it permanently under control here.

However, instead nearly everyone has removed their masks -- including many of those under 12, who definitely aren't vaccinated -- and are having large indoor gatherings.

This extended recklessness is going to increase the odds of infection by enough to overwhelm the benefits we were getting from our high vaccination rate. That's the current main risk *where I live* and I'm tearing my hair out about it.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Just a data point, I'm on an Acela from NYC to BOS and there was an Amtrak employee in an unusual uniform walking through the train and enforcing mask compliance. He wasn't in the usual conductor or attendant garb, he was wearing blue pants, white shirt and of all things, a large bow tie. He was polite but stopped at every seat and told people to put their masks fully over their noses unless they had actual food or drink in front of them. There were a few dirty looks from casual mask avoiders, but no one argued with him. He didn't move on until the mask was correctly in place. 

I'm 100% in favor of mask wearing, but this was a little strange.


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## daybeers

Brian Battuello said:


> Just a data point, I'm on an Acela from NYC to BOS and there was an Amtrak employee in an unusual uniform walking through the train and enforcing mask compliance. He wasn't in the usual conductor or attendant garb, he was wearing blue pants, white shirt and of all things, a large bow tie. He was polite but stopped at every seat and told people to put their masks fully over their noses unless they had actual food or drink in front of them. There were a few dirty looks from casual mask avoiders, but no one argued with him. He didn't move on until the mask was correctly in place.
> 
> I'm 100% in favor of mask wearing, but this was a little strange.


Honestly happy to see that. Metro-North and Amtrak trains I've been on recently haven't had the best enforcement, unfortunately.


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## IndyLions

Brian Battuello said:


> Just a data point, I'm on an Acela from NYC to BOS and there was an Amtrak employee in an unusual uniform walking through the train and enforcing mask compliance. He wasn't in the usual conductor or attendant garb, he was wearing blue pants, white shirt and of all things, a large bow tie. He was polite but stopped at every seat and told people to put their masks fully over their noses unless they had actual food or drink in front of them. There were a few dirty looks from casual mask avoiders, but no one argued with him. He didn't move on until the mask was correctly in place.
> 
> I'm 100% in favor of mask wearing, but this was a little strange.


Now that’s tough duty, mask enforcement. But kudos if this is some sort of effort by Amtrak to do the enforcement and not just let it slide. And kudos to the employee for his attitude and approach. Again, that’s tough duty.


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## west point

Got my 2nd shot Feb28. About May slacked up on mask wearing but by June full mask again after "Delta" started to showing up. My biggest worry is that otherwise I could become asymptomatic and spread it to non vaccinated persons. That is especially for my relations that are under 12. Anyone not vaccinated better not get around them and cause any to get "delta" or any other variant.. 99% of C-19 deaths now are non vaccinated persons.

It distress us that the approval for under 12s is taking so long. Would not want to be in any of all school official positions that has as unvaccinated child die .


----------



## City of Miami

I have been deeply considering a 3 to 5 day trip to the Berkshires in late August for my first excursion since March 2020. Today it registered that all the travel (~22 hours on Amtrak, 8-10 hrs on buses) will have to be masked. Nope. Really don't think I'm going to choose that. Woulda been my first Acela too.


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## west point

Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.


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## flitcraft

Has the Supreme Court agreed to hear such a case, and from which circuit? It's easy to say, "I'm taking this to the Supreme Court," but it's hard to actually succeed in doing so. Trust me on this; when I was in practice I probably filed twenty petitions for Supreme Court review, and never succeeded in getting a case accepted there for decision.


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## Anderson

west point said:


> Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.


I think you meant "challenging"?


flitcraft said:


> Has the Supreme Court agreed to hear such a case, and from which circuit? It's easy to say, "I'm taking this to the Supreme Court," but it's hard to actually succeed in doing so. Trust me on this; when I was in practice I probably filed twenty petitions for Supreme Court review, and never succeeded in getting a case accepted there for decision.


My guess is that something here will be taken up. There's at least one case pending out of Florida and one out of Texas IIRC:
-The FL one is based on the fact that the person was taking a flight from (IIRC) Orlando-Miami with no connection, so trying to argue "not interstate commerce". My guess is that's a bad line to argue with a major carrier. With a "local" carrier you might be able to argue it...but I don't think there are any significant single-state carriers in operation since the defense is simply "Look, the staff and most of the pax are moving between states".
-The TX one is arguing against the mandate within the _airport_, which gets a little bit stickier since you're not quite in the same "enclosed space for an extended period of time" in the terminal as you are in the plane. My guess is that the plaintiffs might actually win here, given that you can go around Disney World sans mask except on the Monorail, Buses, and Skyliner and the guidance has changed. I wouldn't be surprised to see a snarky opinion from Alito noting that the CDC guidance seemed to "miraculously" avoid contradicting the EO. But that doesn't deal with "on the plane", just "in the station". Put into an Amtrak context, explaining why someone needs a mask at Union Station but not in Gallery Place or at the Old Post Office (at least per the law; I'm not sure what the rules in those facilities are) also gets a little strained (and at least with Amtrak you have a "company" issuing the policy...it's rather a stretch to claim that a bunch of airports, particularly relatively lightly-used smaller-city ones, would choose an identical policy).

There's a good chance that a red-leaning circuit (say, the Fifth, which has a 12-5 appointment edge for Republicans vs Democrats, and which includes Texas) might bounce the policy, which could lead to a real mess if the SC doesn't take it up (let's face it, I don't think anyone wants to face a situation where there's an un-stayed circuit ruling bouncing a policy like this in part of the country..."You have to wear a mask except while connecting in Texas" is a great formula for FAs to just stop _trying_).

Also, I'd have to check the FAA "proposed fines" but I feel like there's some room for some litigation on that front as well (if only because of the administrative process at hand there). But that's its own kettle of fish.


----------



## Anderson

Brian Battuello said:


> Just a data point, I'm on an Acela from NYC to BOS and there was an Amtrak employee in an unusual uniform walking through the train and enforcing mask compliance. He wasn't in the usual conductor or attendant garb, he was wearing blue pants, white shirt and of all things, a large bow tie. He was polite but stopped at every seat and told people to put their masks fully over their noses unless they had actual food or drink in front of them. There were a few dirty looks from casual mask avoiders, but no one argued with him. He didn't move on until the mask was correctly in place.
> 
> I'm 100% in favor of mask wearing, but this was a little strange.


I'm going to sound a bit snarky with this, but it sounds like they found a way to meet the "bring everyone back from furlough" mandate without having all of the trains running.


----------



## Exvalley

A woman sitting across from me on the Northeast Regional to New York City did not wear a mask for the entire trip - including when the seat next to her was taken. Nobody said a word. 

What a jerk!


----------



## me_little_me

west point said:


> Got my 2nd shot Feb28. About May slacked up on mask wearing but by June full mask again after "Delta" started to showing up. My biggest worry is that otherwise I could become asymptomatic and spread it to non vaccinated persons. That is especially for my relations that are under 12. Anyone not vaccinated better not get around them and cause any to get "delta" or any other variant.. 99% of C-19 deaths now are non vaccinated persons.
> 
> It distress us that the approval for under 12s is taking so long. Would not want to be in any of all school official positions that has as unvaccinated child die .


Since the safety testing for small children has not been completed, would you want to be the one who is responsible for the health and life of smaller children on a not-fully-tested vaccine? Children have a noticeable lower rate of getting the disease or of dying of it which might be an indication of something the vaccine might interfere with so safety testing is paramount. Moreover, if more kids have problems with the vaccine than adults, the loony-news people would have a field day and fewer adults would come over from the dark side.

The government, CDC [i.e. medical people - who are part of the government] and the vaccine manufacturers have done a good job so far. Let them decide when it is safe. And I speak as a grandparent of a 2 and 10 y/o who hopes they can be vaccinated soon.


----------



## City of Miami

Exvalley said:


> A woman sitting across from me on the Northeast Regional to New York City did not wear a mask for the entire trip - including when the seat next to her was taken. Nobody said a word.
> 
> What a jerk!


Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.


----------



## Exvalley

City of Miami said:


> Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.


She was talking on the phone quite a bit, but not loudly.

I am fully vaccinated, so I wasn't going to make an issue of it - but the selfishness of her behavior really struck me. I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.


----------



## adamj023

west point said:


> Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.



I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

adamj023 said:


> I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous



That is only your opinion. I do not agree.


----------



## daybeers

City of Miami said:


> Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.


It shouldn't be the job of other passengers to confront those not wearing a mask.


Exvalley said:


> I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.


This is the issue here.


adamj023 said:


> I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.


There is evidence that antibodies from those who have been infected don't last very long and don't protect against recent variants. If you don't like the mask mandate, don't travel, but there are still many who are not vaccinated in the United States, notably children, who make up nearly a quarter of the population. Not to mention those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why should they be denied using transportation if there's no alternative? Grocery stores, pharmacies, and other essential businesses have other options like delivery or contactless pickup. There's no such thing for public transit.

Cases in the U.S. are up around 40% over the past two weeks and that doesn't even include July 4th data. Maybe let's wait a little longer before saying the pandemic is over, and also be thankful we are not in a fifth wave like some countries are. Everyone in the U.S. can get a vaccine if they can and want to; that is far from the truth around the world.


----------



## City of Miami

crescent-zephyr said:


> That is only your opinion. I do not agree.


Well, the government of VA disagrees with YOU and they speak for 8.6 million people.


----------



## Eric S

As of now, the mandate ends in, what, two months? My guess is that the likeliest outcome is that it is allowed to expire. (I'm not arguing that this is or is not a good idea, nor stating what I think should or should not happen, just guessing what I think is likely to happen.)


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## City of Miami

daybeers said:


> It shouldn't be the job of other passengers to confront those not wearing a mask.
> 
> This is the issue here.
> 
> There is evidence that antibodies from those who have been infected don't last very long and don't protect against recent variants. If you don't like the mask mandate, don't travel, but there are still many who are not vaccinated in the United States, notably children, who make up nearly a quarter of the population. Not to mention those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why should they be denied using transportation if there's no alternative? Grocery stores, pharmacies, and other essential businesses have other options like delivery or contactless pickup. There's no such thing for public transit.
> 
> Cases in the U.S. are up around 40% over the past two weeks and that doesn't even include July 4th data. Maybe let's wait a little longer before saying the pandemic is over, and also be thankful we are not in a fifth wave like some countries are. Everyone in the U.S. can get a vaccine if they can and want to; that is far from the truth around the world.


I have never put any faith in the efficacy of face masks. Social distancing made much more sense to me and I took it upon myself to practice that, pretty much alone as I realized many people had no notion of the concept of six feet. This is still true for me though I have relaxed a little.


----------



## PVD

Exvalley said:


> She was talking on the phone quite a bit, but not loudly.
> 
> I am fully vaccinated, so I wasn't going to make an issue of it - but the selfishness of her behavior really struck me. I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.


There is a rule in place, and it is the job of the crew to enforce the rule. She should have been warned by the crew, and if still non compliant, booted from the train. People can debate whether or not the rule should still be in place, but that goes for lots of rules. as long as the rule is in place, follow it or pick another means to travel.


----------



## City of Miami

PVD said:


> There is a rule in place, and it is the job of the crew to enforce the rule. She should have been warned by the crew, and if still non compliant, booted from the train. People can debate whether or not the rule should still be in place, but that goes for lots of rules. as long as the rule is in place, follow it or pick another means to travel.


So that makes it perfectly clear: the issue is others following rules, not the disease. I'm not presenting myself immune from this view but it's good to know what is going on.Thanks for saying so.


----------



## PVD

Not exactly, many people believe it has a place in preventing the spread of the disease. Some people don't. Not believing it is not an excuse for not following a rule that is in place. In responding to the earlier remark about someone remaining maskless for the whole trip, I believe that the rule, along with all the others that have to do with the safety and comfort of the other passengers should be enforced. Passengers know what the policy is in advance, if you can't live with the policy don't book a ticket....whether it's smoking, drinking your own in coach, loud music, it isn't different.


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## City of Miami

Precisely. So this is why, as I said way up the thread, I will almost certainly choose not to make my trip to the Berkshires next month - not because I'm afraid of COVID-19 but because I don't want to wear the mask for some 36 hours of travel time.


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## Danib62

Great! Staying home is even more effective at preventing the spread of COVID than wearing a mask! Glad you're doing your part!


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## PVD

I think you are being reasonable. There are many reasons that people may not wish to wear a mask. Some are fixable, many are not. But you aren't trying to ignore the policy to the potential detriment of others.


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## AmtrakBlue

I waited 3 weeks after my state's mask mandate was relaxed in May before I stopped wear masks. I wore a mask today when I volunteered at the Food Bank because I have been watching my county's numbers and they started going back up. The numbers are still quite low, but if we're in an upward trend I'm ready.


----------



## John Bredin

adamj023 said:


> I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.


I _personally_ would love for the broad mask mandate on interstate & public transportation to be lifted, BUT:

1) there's evidence that having antibodies from being exposed to Covid does _not_ convey the same protection as being fully vaccinated.

2) I say "broad" to refer to requiring masks regardless of vaccination. I would have no problem having to show my vaccination card or a photograph of it as a condition of traveling Amtrak (or an airliner or intercity bus) without a mask and crews booting off maskless passengers who can't show proof of vaccination. In other words, "vaccinated need not mask, unvaccinated must mask" like a lot of store signs say, but with real "teeth". I also have no problem with a broad mask mandate on public transit for the time being because enforcing an "unvaccinated must mask" rule is effectively impossible on a transit bus or light rail train and highly inconvenient at best on a commuter train.

3) I _really_ don't relish the idea of SCOTUS or another court striking down the mask requirement. 

The authority of the Federal government over interstate transportation is broad, as it its authority to impose conditions on transit systems that accept Federal funding (which is essentially all of them). Courts don't find statutes or regulations invalid just because someone believes them to be imprudent or excessive or a "bad idea"; that's an argument for the body that imposed the regulation to repeal it, or to Congress to override the regulation by statute. Unless you're talking about either a fundamental right (free speech, religion, etc.) or discrimination on race, sex, religion, etc. grounds, a government regulation with authority and _any _rational basis survives judicial review.

The fact that there's a population that at the moment _can't_ be vaccinated -- children under 12 -- sure sounds like a rational basis to me. Whether you personally feel that's enough is irrelevant, if any rational person can make a rational argument for it, it's not legally invalid. Again, if you think a regulation is a bad idea but it has authority and a rational basis, your argument that it's a bad idea has to be "pitched" to the President or the Dep't of Transportation, or maybe Congress, but not the courts.

SCOTUS ignoring all that and striking down the interstate/public transport mask mandate (which I consider unlikely for the reasons just stated) would IMHO be a political decision rather than a constitutional or legal decision, and the shenanigans that would be caused in various fields of governance and politics by SCOTUS acting like a super-legislature rather than a court in such an egregious manner more than outweigh (understatement!) any momentary comfort I would get by not having to wear a mask on a train.


----------



## jis

I am wearing my N95 mask again because the numbers in my County and State are growing by leaps and bounds week by week. My State has chosen not to publish daily numbers anymore lest the utter mismanagement become too obvious to all. Soon to further their attempts at obfuscation maybe they will publish only monthly or yearly numbers. The ideology driven idiocy knows no bounds apparently.


----------



## Qapla

PVD said:


> There are many reasons that people may not wish to wear a mask. Some are fixable, many are not



While this sentiment has been expressed from time-to-time, IMHO there needs to be an adjustment to the order of the wording ...

*"Some* are fixable, *many* are not" would be better stated as "*Many* are fixable, *some* are not" since many of the reasons/excuses given for not wearing a mask fall more in the category of not "wanting" to wear a mask ... not a physical disability.


----------



## zephyr17

Masks are a PITA. Being a PITA is not a medical excuse for not wearing one.

I don't like it, but I do it.


----------



## Anderson

John Bredin said:


> I _personally_ would love for the broad mask mandate on interstate & public transportation to be lifted, BUT:
> 
> 1) there's evidence that having antibodies from being exposed to Covid does _not_ convey the same protection as being fully vaccinated.
> 
> 2) I say "broad" to refer to requiring masks regardless of vaccination. I would have no problem having to show my vaccination card or a photograph of it as a condition of traveling Amtrak (or an airliner or intercity bus) without a mask and crews booting off maskless passengers who can't show proof of vaccination. In other words, "vaccinated need not mask, unvaccinated must mask" like a lot of store signs say, but with real "teeth". I also have no problem with a broad mask mandate on public transit for the time being because enforcing an "unvaccinated must mask" rule is effectively impossible on a transit bus or light rail train and highly inconvenient at best on a commuter train.
> 
> 3) I _really_ don't relish the idea of SCOTUS or another court striking down the mask requirement.
> 
> The authority of the Federal government over interstate transportation is broad, as it its authority to impose conditions on transit systems that accept Federal funding (which is essentially all of them). Courts don't find statutes or regulations invalid just because someone believes them to be imprudent or excessive or a "bad idea"; that's an argument for the body that imposed the regulation to repeal it, or to Congress to override the regulation by statute. Unless you're talking about either a fundamental right (free speech, religion, etc.) or discrimination on race, sex, religion, etc. grounds, a government regulation with authority and _any _rational basis survives judicial review.
> 
> The fact that there's a population that at the moment _can't_ be vaccinated -- children under 12 -- sure sounds like a rational basis to me. Whether you personally feel that's enough is irrelevant, if any rational person can make a rational argument for it, it's not legally invalid. Again, if you think a regulation is a bad idea but it has authority and a rational basis, your argument that it's a bad idea has to be "pitched" to the President or the Dep't of Transportation, or maybe Congress, but not the courts.
> 
> SCOTUS ignoring all that and striking down the interstate/public transport mask mandate (which I consider unlikely for the reasons just stated) would IMHO be a political decision rather than a constitutional or legal decision, and the shenanigans that would be caused in various fields of governance and politics by SCOTUS acting like a super-legislature rather than a court in such an egregious manner more than outweigh (understatement!) any momentary comfort I would get by not having to wear a mask on a train.


So, a few observations:
(1) We're probably lucky that some red-leaning areas haven't just used this as a pretext to, say, kill off the local bus system. I think they might even have a case for using "You must enforce this new rule" as grounds to evade one of those 20-30 year operating agreements.
(2) Building on (1), I feel like a local system could probably evade enforcement if they were willing to go to court over it...the general basis I'm thinking of is the striking-down of the requirement to implement Medicaid expansion as a term of keeping the original Medicaid funding (which is arguably at loggerheads with the drinking age mandate being allowed to stand). Brightline might also be able to duck it if they wanted to on the grounds of being solely intrastate transportation (though if I had to guess, their attitude might well be "We'll state it as a policy but refuse to do more than post a sign").
(3) The 12-and-under crowd presents a lot of issues. There's an area on the low end there where compelling compliance is occasionally problematic (I'm thinking 3-5 year olds, who might be just as happy to get thrown off the plane they don't want to be on in the first place and to hell with visiting Great Aunt Hilda and/or who just don't "get it"), but at the same time using VA's data, folks under 20 comprise six deaths and about 600 hospitalizations to date (the rates vs cases here gets odd because I think a lot of testing simply hasn't been happening for kids, both because they're low-symptom/no-symptom cases and because they weren't necessarily going "out and about" for a good chunk of this, so the reasoning behind testing was a bit more limited).
(4) The fact that the government is compelling a mandate in certain situations (e.g. "in the airport") but not even _recommending_ it in a number of analogous situations (e.g. "at a sporting event") is where the rule has room to get hung up. Honestly, there's enough of a mixed set of requirements/recommendations that this would be a plausible way for the courts to chip away at _Chevron _deference.

Again, my guess is that they might narrow the mandate but not throw it out entirely. Striking it down insofar as "local" public transit is concerned seems like it could happen (particularly given how negligible the impact there would be in general vis-a-vis other local policies...expect some noise about the Federal gov't "not being entitled to forcibly deputize local police in pursuit of a one-size-fits-all national policy" or "the presence of federal funding is not a blank check to mandate various and sundry policies"). Likewise, constraining the mandate within terminals (versus on the transportation itself) and perhaps requiring more clear allowances for younger children, etc. seem like decisions I could "connect the dots" on.




Exvalley said:


> A woman sitting across from me on the Northeast Regional to New York City did not wear a mask for the entire trip - including when the seat next to her was taken. Nobody said a word.
> 
> What a jerk!


I mean, if her seatmate didn't care (which I presume was the case), this sounds like it managed to fall into the category of "a service which is not requested nor wanted is not a service".


----------



## flitcraft

Anderson said:


> My guess is that something here will be taken up. There's at least one case pending out of Florida and one out of Texas IIRC:
> -The FL one is based on the fact that the person was taking a flight from (IIRC) Orlando-Miami with no connection, so trying to argue "not interstate commerce". My guess is that's a bad line to argue with a major carrier. With a "local" carrier you might be able to argue it...but I don't think there are any significant single-state carriers in operation since the defense is simply "Look, the staff and most of the pax are moving between states".


The Florida case right now is at the filing stage. Not clear whether there is an attorney involved in the filing or not, but, as you noted, t it is pretty clearly a doomed theory--the issue isn't whether a particular flight is 'in" interstate commerce but whether a rule 'affects' interstate commerce. Presumably the crew and quite a few of the passengers were on their way to or from someplace out of Florida at the time of the plaintiff's flight. Also, the plaintiff is refusing to present his case before a magistrate judge, so that will slow down the case waiting for a hearing before an Article 3 judge. By the time the case gets out of district court--probably by dismissal-- and into an appellate court, the case will be moot and dismissed on that grounds. I don't know anything about the Texas case, but at this point as a betting person, I'd put my money on dismissal as moot by the time challenges get to any circuit court, let alone the Supreme Court.


----------



## PVD

One thing that works against a SCOTUS review is the timeline. If the mandate is allowed to expire in September, there is a good chance it never gets near SCOTUS before that, and they render it moot. I don't see them taking it on an emergency/expedited basis over the next 2 months.


----------



## Exvalley

Anderson said:


> I mean, if her seatmate didn't care (which I presume was the case), this sounds like it managed to fall into the category of "a service which is not requested nor wanted is not a service".



Her seatmate got up and moved as soon as she realized that the mask was staying off. Nobody else wanted to sit in that seat.


----------



## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> Her seatmate got up and moved as soon as she realized that the mask was staying off. Nobody else wanted to sit in that seat.


What a great scam to get a seat pair to yourself!


----------



## Anderson

PVD said:


> One thing that works against a SCOTUS review is the timeline. If the mandate is allowed to expire in September, there is a good chance it never gets near SCOTUS before that, and they render it moot. I don't see them taking it on an emergency/expedited basis over the next 2 months.


I think it depends on whether there's a further extension. If the mandate expires (or is severely curtailed) in September, you're right. If not (there's a general extension), I could see an expedited hearing being kicked off at that point.

Also, as I indicated, you _might_ get a review if you manage to get a circuit split of some sort, since conflicting case law is one of those things SCOTUS sort-of tries to avoid AFAICT.

But I agree that the most likely outcome, if someone files in a timely manner, is stuff getting, at most, to the circuit level before things expire.

(Also, Amtrak in particular might be fertile ground if they keep the policy in place...



Exvalley said:


> Her seatmate got up and moved as soon as she realized that the mask was staying off. Nobody else wanted to sit in that seat.


Noted. The initial phrasing was unclear as to whether they'd moved or stayed put (e.g. the other pax was a short-hop rider from [say] PVD-NHV or PHL-NYP).


----------



## me_little_me

Did you bring it to the attention of the conductor?


He/She might tell you to mind your own business or just ignore you - in that case, you can take it up with Amtrak as a complaint but don't expect compensation as you can move.
He/She might tell you to find another seat - see above for the action you can take with Amtrak but note you would need to move to another seat.
He/She might say something to the person and if she temporarily puts on the mask but then takes it off, you could complain again since the conductor knows she is a problem. If the conductor does nothing or she only takes it off temporarily again, then see #2 above.
Now if there no more seats, you can probably get compensation from Amtrak and/or file a complaint with the STB, FRA or whoever set the mandate.


----------



## JoeBas

adamj023 said:


> I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.



I know what you mean. Asking people to put a piece of cloth over their face to prevent others from getting sick and dying? *RIDICULOUS!!!!

Oh, and...  *


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Justice Clarence Thomas rejects longshot bid to disrupt Biden's mask mandate for public transport | CNN Politics


Justice Clarence Thomas on Tuesday rejected an emergency request to block Biden administration's Covid-19 mask requirement for public travel.




www.cnn.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

AmtrakBlue said:


> Justice Clarence Thomas rejects longshot bid to disrupt Biden's mask mandate for public transport | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Justice Clarence Thomas on Tuesday rejected an emergency request to block Biden administration's Covid-19 mask requirement for public travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


First decent thing he's done since he has been on the Court!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> First decent thing he's done since he has been on the Court!


Acts bored and disinterested during oral arguments then writes fire and brimstone rulings. He's the closest thing I've seen to a real _Manchurian Candidate_.


----------



## jiml

The sidebar to the whole discussion of masks on public transportation is economic. Without masks, returning to full capacity on Amtrak, airlines and other transit might not have been possible, and a mask mandate is also reassuring to those who might otherwise be reluctant to return to travel. Both factors increase the companies' bottom lines. It will be interesting to see how quick they are to remove the requirement even when the government says it's okay.


----------



## Anderson

AmtrakBlue said:


> Justice Clarence Thomas rejects longshot bid to disrupt Biden's mask mandate for public transport | CNN Politics
> 
> 
> Justice Clarence Thomas on Tuesday rejected an emergency request to block Biden administration's Covid-19 mask requirement for public travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


The court didn't comment, but I think the proper response is that nobody is compelling him to _fly_. If I were writing the opinion there, even if I nibbled at the "transportation hubs" side of thing, I would probably note that (with notice) one can either rent a car or presumably hire a driver (and I'd likely opine as dictum that the federal government directing a mask mandate on a single-driver/single-rider private car booking was a bit of a stretch, but also that enforcement was likely to be nigh on impossible).


jiml said:


> The sidebar to the whole discussion of masks on public transportation is economic. Without masks, returning to full capacity on Amtrak, airlines and other transit might not have been possible, and a mask mandate is also reassuring to those who might otherwise be reluctant to return to travel. Both factors increase the companies' bottom lines. It will be interesting to see how quick they are to remove the requirement even when the government says it's okay.


I'm not sure it would have mattered. If I'm not _sorely_ mistaken, the capacity constraints were company decisions driven by getting pax onto flights/trains, not federal mandates.


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## zephyr17

Yeah, I think the only federal mandate was the masks. The capacity limits I think were largely from the airlines trying to get anybody back on the planes after their business dropped 90% in March/April 2020.


----------



## PVD

He wanted it heard by the Supreme Court on an expedited basis before it winds its way through the Federal Court System. There is nothing really for Thomas to say the answer was no...


----------



## flitcraft

Getting an emergency injunction at the Supreme Court on a case like this would have been extraordinary. The plaintiff needed to show a probability that, if the case proceeded, he would win on the merits and that if he were forced to litigate in the courts below, he would suffer irreparable injury. So, back to district court the plaintiff must go.... National Law Journal's report on the district court case indicated that in his complaint he is asking, among other remedies, for attorneys' fees if at some point later in the case he retains counsel. Maybe some lawyer will step forward to represent him pro bono, but if I were interested in challenging the transportation mask mandates, I think I might be inclined to look for a client with better facts.


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## neroden

City of Miami said:


> I have never put any faith in the efficacy of face masks. Social distancing made much more sense to me and I took it upon myself to practice that, pretty much alone as I realized many people had no notion of the concept of six feet. This is still true for me though I have relaxed a little.


I have done the actual research into the scientific literature. N95 face masks are far more effective than social distancing, though social distancing does help. Ventilation is also very important.

The key thing is to understand that the virus spreads by aerosols -- basically, think of it as moving like clouds of odorless, invisible smoke. It's very easy for smoke to hang around even after someone leaves an indoor location -- same with clouds of virus. It's quite possible for smoke to travel more than six feet -- same with clouds of virus -- but it is better to be further from the source of the smoke.

A good mask will massively reduce smoke exposure. A mask over the source of the smoke is *extremely* effective, more effective than anything else, which is why I wish people would do that. 

As for ventilation, good, strong breezes will eventually blow all the smoke to the ground.


----------



## neroden

me_little_me said:


> IF you get close enough to catch it from someone who is contagious and IF they spread their germs to you



All prevented if they wear their damn mask



> and IF it takes hold


36% chance here, not safe, so wear the damn mask



> and IF you then get to close to and spread your germs to and IF you pass it on to a child,


All prevented if you wear your damn mask.



> they MAY get the disease. But if you have at least half a brain (which you proved you had when you got vaccinated), you'd probably tend to avoid situations like that


Yes. The way you avoid situations like that?

By (1) wearing your mask and (2) avoiding people who don't wear masks.

You simply refuse to listen to the scientists on how the virus actually spreads. This is frustrating. 

Covid-19 spreads by aerosols. Anyone who is a carrier and who is breathing out without a mask leaves a cloud of Covid-19 behind (like a cloud of smoke, but invisible and odorless). Anyone who walks through that cloud later and isn't wearing a mask is exposed.



> and take care to wash hands and avoid touching your face


Now demonstrated to be irrelevant with Covid-19. This is not a method by which Covid-19 spreads. The emphasis on handwashing early in the pandemic was an error and this has been admitted now. Please, get up to date on the science.


----------



## neroden

After reviewing the literature, I am now comfortable in any space where everyone is consistently wearing their masks, but I am not comfortable in any space where potential carriers may be breathing out clouds of Delta-Variant Covid in the air. Frankly we now know that we could reopen everything (except eat-in restaurants) if we could get people to just consistently wear the masks.

It is infuriating that an infantile resistance to wearing masks by supposed adults is resulting in our hospitals being overloaded, Covid taking over the country again, and, frankly, will lead to more lockdowns and business closures.


----------



## me_little_me

neroden said:


> All prevented if they wear their damn mask
> 
> 
> 36% chance here, not safe, so wear the damn mask
> 
> 
> All prevented if you wear your damn mask.
> 
> 
> Yes. The way you avoid situations like that?
> 
> By (1) wearing your mask and (2) avoiding people who don't wear masks.
> 
> You simply refuse to listen to the scientists on how the virus actually spreads. This is frustrating.
> 
> Covid-19 spreads by aerosols. Anyone who is a carrier and who is breathing out without a mask leaves a cloud of Covid-19 behind (like a cloud of smoke, but invisible and odorless). Anyone who walks through that cloud later and isn't wearing a mask is exposed.
> 
> 
> Now demonstrated to be irrelevant with Covid-19. This is not a method by which Covid-19 spreads. The emphasis on handwashing early in the pandemic was an error and this has been admitted now. Please, get up to date on the science.


Unless one has an N95 MEDICAL mask, the mask does not STOP the virus completely. Worse, since many wear masks wrong, it is less effective. But it is effective at REDUCING transmission.


----------



## Anderson

By the way, I think the only way you could have someone credibly challenge the mandate along the lines of that guy who tried to get an emergency injunction would be to make a claim between either Hawaii or Puerto Rico and the mainland US (or perhaps Guam or another territory) since the response with the mainland or the mainland-to-Alaska is that you can get there via a method that doesn't require extended mask usage.


----------



## Fat_Panda_Guy

If this has been previously discussed in this thread or elsewhere in this forum, my apologies, but, what are your collective opinions on the mask mandate being extended past 9/3? 
My understanding is that the feds have issued the mask mandate for all transportation sectors through 9/3.
We are contemplating a Vermonter trip in late September for leaf peeping but 9-10 hours from NYP to ESX wearing a mask is not terribly appealing. 
We would probably opt out of such a trip, or at least the Amtrak portion as that would just be too uncomfortable for us.
Any constructive thoughts, comments, and advice are welcome. Non-constructive thoughts, comments, and advice are more just accepted than welcome. 
Thank you.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Fat_Panda_Guy said:


> If this has been previously discussed in this thread or elsewhere in this forum, my apologies, but, what are your collective opinions on the mask mandate being extended past 9/3?
> My understanding is that the feds have issued the mask mandate for all transportation sectors through 9/3.
> We are contemplating a Vermonter trip in late September for leaf peeping but 9-10 hours from NYP to ESX wearing a mask is not terribly appealing.
> We would probably opt out of such a trip, or at least the Amtrak portion as that would just be too uncomfortable for us.
> Any constructive thoughts, comments, and advice are welcome. Non-constructive thoughts, comments, and advice are more just accepted than welcome.
> Thank you.


Seeing as how COVID Cases are increasing rapidly in various areas of the US( my County and City just upped the Alert Status to Stage 3 ( Yellow)even though we're 75% Vaccinated, Cases and Hospitializations have tripled!) are Increasing due to the Delta Variant, and LA just reinstated the Mask Mandate for Indoor Spaces, I think that President Biden ( aka Amtrak Joe)will extend the Mandate, unless and until the Numbers go back down! 

It's not over by any means, and Scientists are urging Caution and for Everyone to get Vaccinated that can!


----------



## jiml

From Business Insider:





__





Tension and violence onboard airplanes is soaring, but the CDC still wants flyers to wear masks because the unvaccinated are 'extremely vulnerable'






www.msn.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> From Business Insider:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tension and violence onboard airplanes is soaring, but the CDC still wants flyers to wear masks because the unvaccinated are 'extremely vulnerable'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

Some of the Casinos and Businesses in Vegas are returning to Mask Mandates for Employees and Visitors as Cases Triple in Nevada.( 70% of Vegas Visitors are from California and Texas, since International Travel has been curtailed into the US) 

I had considered taking a really Bargain trip to Vegas to see the New Buildings and attend a Couple of the Shows ( it's been 20 years since I was there) including Penn and Teller and the Beatles Circus Solei Love Show., but now it's a Hard Pass.


----------



## TinCan782

Bob Dylan said:


> Some of the Casinos and Businesses in Vegas are returning to Mask Mandates for Employees and Visitors as Cases Triple in Nevada.( 70% of Vegas Visitors are from California and Texas, since International Travel has been curtailed into the US)
> 
> I had considered taking a really Bargain trip to Vegas to see the New Buildings and attend a Couple of the Shows ( it's been 20 years since I was there) including Penn and Teller and the Beatles Circus Solei Love Show., but now it's a Hard Pass.


Here in Los Angeles County, we are returning to masks for everyone indoors beginning midnight tonight (Sat/Sun July 17/18). We've still been masking in stores etc. anyway even though we've been fully vaccinated since March.


----------



## Qapla

Fat_Panda_Guy said:


> We are contemplating a Vermonter trip in late September for leaf peeping but 9-10 hours from NYP to ESX wearing a mask is not terribly appealing.
> We would probably opt out of such a trip, or at least the Amtrak portion as that would just be too uncomfortable for us.



Something that can making wearing a mask for an extended period of time a little more bearable ... bring enough masks so that you can put a fresh one on each hour. Just because Amtrak requires you to wear a mask - nothing says it has to be the same mask for the entire trip.


----------



## neroden

me_little_me said:


> Unless one has an N95 MEDICAL mask, the mask does not STOP the virus completely. Worse, since many wear masks wrong, it is less effective. But it is effective at REDUCING transmission.


Masks which aren't over the nose and mouth are indeed highly ineffective. :-(

Recent studies show that the fit of the mask is more important than whether it's an N95. It appears that the primary issue is air going around the edges of the mask. Though in fact I have a combination of American-made N95s, and three-layers with N95 center inserts -- they're not that hard to get now, so I encourage people to do so.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Masks are Plentiful and Affordable right now, I advise people to stock up before the Fall/Winter "Wave" which WILL come.

Also, Vaccines are readily available and FREE, No Excuse for not getting Vaccinated unless your Dr says you shouldn't for Reasons of Health.

If you don't, you might be so sorry!


----------



## PVD

For most people, the discomfort issue can be dealt with in a few different ways. 1. wear fresh/clean masks (rotate them) 2. make sure they fit well, and are appropriate for your face, not everyone is comfortable with the same type 3. If you are using an ear-loop type, and because of glasses, hearing aids, or the shape of your face/ears they are uncomfortable or slip, there are many inexpensive bands available that hook the ear loops and go behind your head. They help in many cases.....


----------



## tonys96

After spending 6 days last November in ICU with the stupid Covid, and now having a complication from it that necessitates the use of an inhaler, I will wear a mask in crowded areas with folks I do not know. I do not want to go through that again, as I may nor be as blessed next time, nor would I wish that experience on another, not even any of the boyfriends of any of the ex-wives. 
So, any protection for me, or others, is better than no protection.


----------



## Seaboard92

Honestly even when they tell us we can take our masks off I will probably still wear one during cold and flu season. Since we've started wearing masks every day in March of 2020 I haven't been sick once, and my seasonal allergies improved. So if you ask me masks work for more than just covid. And they aren't that uncomfortable. I wear mine for 8-14 hours a day and I don't have a problem with it.


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## Qapla

I have noticed that many of the people I deal with that must wear a mask all day do not complain about it near as much as those who only wear one when they "must".


----------



## Deni

Qapla said:


> I have noticed that many of the people I deal with that must wear a mask all day do not complain about it near as much as those who only wear one when they "must".


That's the truth!


----------



## Trollopian

An opinion article in today's _Washington Post_ urges the federal government to cut the c**p and start mandating vaccines, where it has the authority. Including on Amtrak. From https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...th-anti-vaxxers-start-mandating-vaccinations/:

"Biden can set an example by using his authority to mandate vaccinations for airline travel *and Amtrak travel* and for federal employees or those who enter federal buildings. The Pentagon has not made vaccinations mandatory because they were approved only on an emergency basis by the Food and Drug Administration — which is why a third of the military still hasn’t received a single shot. Biden can and should issue an executive order mandating military vaccinations as a national security priority.

Granted, there are limits to the United States’ ability to mandate vaccines because many red-state governors are unlikely to go along. But even Republicans want to fly on airplanes and visit blue states such as California, Hawaii, Nevada and New York..."

(The author goes on to compare vaccine mandates to seat-belt, drunken-driving, and motorcycle-helmet laws, which save lives.)


----------



## PaTrainFan

Trollopian said:


> (The author goes on to compare vaccine mandates to seat-belt, drunken-driving, and motorcycle-helmet laws, which save lives.)



^
This.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Trollopian said:


> An opinion article in today's _Washington Post_ urges the federal government to cut the c**p and start mandating vaccines, where it has the authority. Including on Amtrak. From https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...th-anti-vaxxers-start-mandating-vaccinations/:
> 
> "Biden can set an example by using his authority to mandate vaccinations for airline travel *and Amtrak travel* and for federal employees or those who enter federal buildings. The Pentagon has not made vaccinations mandatory because they were approved only on an emergency basis by the Food and Drug Administration — which is why a third of the military still hasn’t received a single shot. Biden can and should issue an executive order mandating military vaccinations as a national security priority.
> 
> Granted, there are limits to the United States’ ability to mandate vaccines because many red-state governors are unlikely to go along. But even Republicans want to fly on airplanes and visit blue states such as California, Hawaii, Nevada and New York..."
> 
> (The author goes on to compare vaccine mandates to seat-belt, drunken-driving, and motorcycle-helmet laws, which save lives.)


President Biden needs to follow the Old Nike Slogan: " Just Do It!"


----------



## west point

Look at it this way. Non vaccinated persons are just exposing other non vaccinated persons. Unfortunately that as of now includes all persons under 12. Also persons who have other medical problems that might have to be isolated. ------- With Delta variant non vaccinated are putting some others to be re infected and compromising all immune deficient persons that are vaccinated. 

I do not allow any non vaccinated persons as I might transmit a virus from them thru me to persons listed above.


----------



## Bob Dylan

west point said:


> Look at it this way. Non vaccinated persons are just exposing other non vaccinated persons. Unfortunately that as of now includes all persons under 12. Also persons who have other medical problems that might have to be isolated. ------- With Delta variant non vaccinated are putting some others to be re infected and compromising all immune deficient persons that are vaccinated.
> 
> I do not allow any non vaccinated persons as I might transmit a virus from them thru me to persons listed above.


It's not just Unvaccinated persons @ Risk, more and more Positives are showing up.in Vaccinated people including the Six Members of the Texas Legislature that tested Positive in DC even though they had been Vaccinated with the Pfizer Vaccine!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

west point said:


> Look at it this way. Non vaccinated persons are just exposing other non vaccinated persons. Unfortunately that as of now includes all persons under 12. Also persons who have other medical problems that might have to be isolated. ------- With Delta variant non vaccinated are putting some others to be re infected and compromising all immune deficient persons that are vaccinated.
> 
> I do not allow any non vaccinated persons as I might transmit a virus from them thru me to persons listed above.


Non-vaccinated are infecting vaccinated who then can infect others.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> Non-vaccinated are infecting vaccinated who then can infect others.


Maybe. Dr. Fauci says the amount of virus in the nasopharynx of an asymptomatic fully vaccinated infected individual is much lower than in an asymptomatic unvaccinated individual. It has not yet been determined whether the vaccinated individual's viral load is enough to spread infection. He said we might know the answer within a month or 2.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> Maybe. Dr. Fauci says the amount of virus in the nasopharynx of an asymptomatic fully vaccinated infected individual is much lower than in an asymptomatic unvaccinated individual. It has not yet been determined whether the vaccinated individual's viral load is enough to spread infection. He said we might know the answer within a month or 2.


Well, I'm going to minimize my chances of infecting my 2 year old granddaughter and her soon-to-be-born brother. I'm back to wearing masks in church, stores, and restaurants.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, I'm going to minimize my chances of infecting my 2 year old granddaughter and her soon-to-be-born brother. I'm back to wearing masks in church, stores, and restaurants.


I have been wearing masks in all enclosed public spaces for the last two weeks as Reproduction Rate in Florida has tended to be above 0.8 through that period. The reality of that is currently reflected in the rate of growth of cases of late.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> I have been wearing masks in all enclosed public spaces for the last two weeks as Reproduction Rate in Florida has tended to be above 0.8 through that period. The reality of that is currently reflected in the rate of growth of cases of late.


Its spreading like wildfire all over!

I'd much rather wear a Mask for a few Hours rather than see anyone on a Ventilator in a Hospital, or spend Eternity in a Pine Box because of what someone saw on Social Media or some Huckster Politician says!


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> I have been wearing masks in all enclosed public spaces for the last two weeks as Reproduction Rate in Florida has tended to be above 0.8 through that period. The reality of that is currently reflected in the rate of growth of cases of late.


Me too. Now, I will not ride the elevator in my condo building with anyone not wearing a mask, whether or not they claim to be vaccinated. I think I will be walking the stairs a lot.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, I'm going to minimize my chances of infecting my 2 year old granddaughter and her soon-to-be-born brother. I'm back to wearing masks in church, stores, and restaurants.


That certainly seems prudent at this time.


----------



## Exvalley

pennyk said:


> Now, I will not ride the elevator in my condo building with anyone not wearing a mask


But what do you do when the elevator shows up and someone steps off of it who has not been wearing a mask?


----------



## Exvalley

My area is still doing well. For my county, you can count the number of new cases in the past 14 days with one hand - and still have a couple of fingers to spare.


----------



## JayPea

I don't know how our county is doing because I haven't seen an official count in months, but Spokane County, to the north of us, is doing very well. New cases are about 1/10th of what they were at the height of the pandemic. For my county I have to assume it's next to none since WSU students are still home. And come this fall WSU students are required to be vaccinated. I think we are doing just fine. The last I heard our county was at 56% vaccinated but that was a while ago so I assume it's higher now. Washington as a whole is over 70%.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

JayPea said:


> I don't know how our county is doing because I haven't seen an official count in months, but Spokane County, to the north of us, is doing very well. New cases are about 1/10th of what they were at the height of the pandemic. For my county I have to assume it's next to none since WSU students are still home. And come this fall WSU students are required to be vaccinated. I think we are doing just fine. The last I heard our county was at 56% vaccinated but that was a while ago so I assume it's higher now. Washington as a whole is over 70%.


You can check here






U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker


Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how Washington is doing.




covidactnow.org


----------



## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> My area is still doing well. For my county, you can count the number of new cases in the past 14 days with one hand - and still have a couple of fingers to spare.


Stay Safe, Viruses don't follow Borders!


----------



## flitcraft

The Seattle Times (behind paywall so no link) ran a story last week about a survey on vaccine hesitancy which pointed out that even county-level stats are misleading, since many counties are large enough to have pockets which vary demographically quite a bit. So, King County, where Seattle is located, has zip codes where the vaccine hesitant (responding that they definitely or probably wouldn't get the vaccine) were only 1-2 percent of the total population, and other zip codes where the vaccine hesitant numbered in the high teens. So, the overall vaccine hesitancy rate of 7% for King County is misleading--we need more granular data than at the county level to understand where efforts are needed to try to address hesitancy issues. I suspect this is true generally--at least, where counties are large enough to have demographic variability.


----------



## Asher

flitcraft said:


> The Seattle Times (behind paywall so no link) ran a story last week about a survey on vaccine hesitancy which pointed out that even county-level stats are misleading, since many counties are large enough to have pockets which vary demographically quite a bit. So, King County, where Seattle is located, has zip codes where the vaccine hesitant (responding that they definitely or probably wouldn't get the vaccine) were only 1-2 percent of the total population, and other zip codes where the vaccine hesitant numbered in the high teens. So, the overall vaccine hesitancy rate of 7% for King County is misleading--we need more granular data than at the county level to understand where efforts are needed to try to address hesitancy issues. I suspect this is true generally--at least, where counties are large enough to have demographic variability.


Travelers coming from near and far changes the local demographics.


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> Travelers coming from near and far changes the local demographics.


So true, especially in places that have lots of Visitors and also hundreds of people a week moving there from all over the World,especially those who are Unvaccinated!

This is part of why Austin is going back to the Stage 4 Protocols after seeing our COVID Stats Shooting Up to a level not seen since January!


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> So true, especially in places that have lots of Visitors and also hundreds of people a week moving there from all over the World,especially those who are Unvaccinated!
> 
> This is part of why Austin is going back to the Stage 4 Protocols after seeing our COVID Stats Shooting Up to a level not seen since January!


Austin is definitely a hot spot for travelers. Aren’t they planing a lot of work on the airport to take care of the surge.


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> Austin is definitely a hot spot for travelers. Aren’t they planing a lot of work on the airport to take care of the surge.


Yep, there's a Master Plan to Double the Size of the too Small Airport but it'll take years!


----------



## neroden

The numbers in my county are actually very good, but unfortunately tourism is our second-largest industry and education our largest, *and* due to not constructing enough housing for the last 70 years, we have a lot of people commuting from neighboring counties. So we are very far from being an island. And the counties around us are not doing well and have low vaccination numbers (due to having a lot more right-wing idiots). So I don't see how we avoid reimportation of cases.


----------



## west point

Yes by Zip code is better. Our county has 3 with one sharing a common city with another state zip. Vaccination rates are quite different in each zip.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Extended again


----------



## Ryan




----------



## PaTrainFan

Before my recent trip to New York I discovered an anti-fogging spray marketed by Zeiss and it worked like a charm. My glasses were totally fog free and made the trip with mask so much more tolerable.


----------



## yarrow

we in stevens county, wa(otherwise known as "cretin country")have a vaccination rate of 30 some percent(even with our state of washington having a rate above 70 percent) and a very high rate of delta variant infection. we have an amtrak trip from spokane to santa barbara booked in october but i just don't know. thanks, cretins


----------



## moosejunky99

I'm travelling to California in Oct. So, I'm glad to hear about them extending the mandate.. It makes me fell safer on a train.. But i did buy a room (that is nice)... I don't know how coach passenger do a 53 hour train ride...


----------



## KeepItGoing

We did a 30-hour ride last month. (We had reserved a sleeper but they called and said it wouldn't be available after all—it was our return trip or we might have put off the trip entirely.) I was surprised at how I got used to the mask. I had decided that if it was too hot for the mask, I was just going to get off wherever and fly home. I was very glad I didn't have to!

If that mask extension had happened just a few weeks ago, I would have been very annoyed. But at this point, I'm beginning to wonder whether it might end up being a permanent requirement to wear masks in public transit and some other settings. It's all very sad.


----------



## west point

Delta sucks and who knows what lambda is going to do ????


----------



## neroden

Eh, wearing masks in public by default was normalized in China, Japan, and Korea a long time ago. Let's just run with it. Helps with pollution, wildfire smoke, and disease.


----------



## me_little_me

yarrow said:


> we in stevens county, wa(otherwise known as "cretin country")have a vaccination rate of 30 some percent(even with our state of washington having a rate above 70 percent) and a very high rate of delta variant infection. we have an amtrak trip from spokane to santa barbara booked in october but i just don't know. thanks, cretins


Time to look for a one way trip somewhere.


----------



## Exvalley

I was a bit surprised to see that the mask mandate was extended until January. The optimist in me was hoping that things would be under control before then.


----------



## zephyr17

Exvalley said:


> I was a bit surprised to see that the mask mandate was extended until January. The optimist in me was hoping that things would be under control before then.


Well, the US hit 1 million vaccinations yesterday for the first time in quite some time, so that's heading in the right direction again for now.


----------



## Oreius

I’m likely sure this has been brought up. But, are you allowed to unmask in your sleeper room with the door closed? I understand wearing them when not in the room or eating/drinking. I just want to make sure.

Today’s Starlight Consist is as follows:

2 P42DC locos
2 sleepers
1 diner
1 business class—not sure if it’s any different than coach.
1–SSL
1 coach
1 coach-baggage.

The only thing I’m wondering is why two engines? A P42DC can pull up to 9 cars at a time. When I rode the Star in 2019, it only had one engine. It had 4 coaches, 1 lounge, 2 sleepers and 1 baggage on the rear.


----------



## OBS

Your understanding of the masking rules should be fine....


----------



## PerRock

Officially, no masks need to be worn at all times. However I wouldn't be surprised if they let you take them off in your room; you can have them ask their car attendant.








Coronavirus Update | Amtrak


Amtrak's coronavirus response includes face mask policy updates, cancellation fee waivers, service reductions and cafe service changes.




www.amtrak.com





As for the locomotive, Superliner cars are bigger & heavier than the cars on the Silvers (engines care about weight, not #s of cars); there are also the Cascade & Rocky mountains to cross.


----------



## Oreius

OBS said:


> Your understanding of the masking rules should be fine....



I rode the Meteor in sleeper class back in February, and was allowed to remove it while in my room. I wasn’t sure if anything changed. I’m in the same car as my parents.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Oreius said:


> The only thing I’m wondering is why two engines? A P42DC can pull up to 9 cars at a time. When I rode the Star in 2019, it only had one engine. It had 4 coaches, 1 lounge, 2 sleepers and 1 baggage on the rear.



The route of the Silver Star is flat. The route of the Starlight has some serious grades!


----------



## jebr

PerRock said:


> Officially, no masks need to be worn at all times. However I wouldn't be surprised if they let you take them off in your room; you can have them ask their car attendant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Update | Amtrak
> 
> 
> Amtrak's coronavirus response includes face mask policy updates, cancellation fee waivers, service reductions and cafe service changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtrak.com



My understanding is that since the TSA mask mandate does not have a specific carve-out for private sleeper compartments, Amtrak's official policy also cannot have an explicit carve-out for private sleeper compartments. In practice, when I've taken the train they state to make sure your mask is on "when outside of your sleeper compartment" (or similar.) If you're in your room with the doors and curtain closed, there's no way for them to know anyways, and they seem to be more concerned with making sure it's being worn in public places where there's no wall separating you from other passengers.


----------



## Oreius

That’s what I thought..


----------



## west point

The silvers route is definitely flat. How else could Auto Train run at a maximum of 17 Superliners and 33 auto carriers for a total of 50 using just 2 P-40s with one providing HEP ? However AT is slow to accelerate to its 70 MPH max speed.


----------



## neroden

Given the Covid case trajectory, I'm simply not expecting things to get good enough for me to feel comfortable travelling until January. We currently have all the school-driven outbreaks, which will be followed by holiday-driven outbreaks. Holiday outbreaks happened last year and will happen again this year. 

Also, nobody under 12 is vaccinated yet, but this is expected to happen in November-December. (P.S. I am truly furious about how many people don't mind infecting children with a disease which often causes lifetime crippling or even brain damage, and just blithely send them off to maskless mass gathering environments in school with no vaccination. Too many people do not actually care about kids at all. Nobody under 12 should be in in-person school in the US right now.)

So anyway, the holiday outbreaks should have calmed down by early January and a lot of the kids should be vaccinated. So maybe it'll be safe enough for me to travel. 

*SO, I'm very glad the mask mandate will still be in place at that time.* I might actually be able to travel. Though honestly I wish they'd extended it a bit longer than January 18th. TSA extends mask mandate for transportation through Jan. 18


----------



## Winecliff Station

jebr said:


> My understanding is that since the TSA mask mandate does not have a specific carve-out for private sleeper compartments, Amtrak's official policy also cannot have an explicit carve-out for private sleeper compartments. In practice, when I've taken the train they state to make sure your mask is on "when outside of your sleeper compartment" (or similar.) If you're in your room with the doors and curtain closed, there's no way for them to know anyways, and they seem to be more concerned with making sure it's being worn in public places where there's no wall separating you from other passengers.


I've even been told by SCA's on more than one occasion, while reaching for my mask when they've come to the door, that I don't have to put it on....this is even with though the door is open while we're talking. I still do it though in case the roomette across the hall has a problem, then take it off when I close the door. 

As for carve out exceptions, I'm wondering if it's an oversight by Amtrak....while they don't make an exception, they don't specifically mandate you must wear it even in a sleeper, which should be an obvious question.


----------



## Ryan

They don't make an exception because they literally cannot make an exception.

I wouldn't call applying common sense at the deckplate level of enforcement an oversight by Amtrak, but individual people applying discretion even when the policy doesn't allow for it.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Ryan said:


> They don't make an exception because they literally cannot make an exception.
> 
> I wouldn't call applying common sense at the deckplate level of enforcement an oversight by Amtrak, but individual people applying discretion even when the policy doesn't allow for it.


Oh I don’t doubt that they’re applying common sense in practice, but to say there isn’t an oversight somewhere either by Amtrak or the federal mandate means when they cover eating and drinking explicitly but fail to mention showering or brushing teeth seems inconsistent. I mean, shouldn’t common sense apply to eating and drinking as well?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

British model Emma Louise Connolly shows how to eat food with the face mask on. (Photos: Instagram/emmalou)


----------



## Winecliff Station

AmtrakBlue said:


> View attachment 24439
> 
> British model Emma Louise Connolly shows how to eat food with the face mask on. (Photos: Instagram/emmalou)


And for drinking you could use one of those beer helmets with the straw snaking around your ear behind your mask lol


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

I am currently in the SWC as we speak. In practice you can take mask off in room and also at table in diner when food is delivered. Crew has been pretty good about it. Same was true on the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

On my Empire Builder to Texas Eagle trip, most (not all) people took off their mask as they sat down for a meal, much as they would in a restaurant. In the SSL, nothing was said either way but most were wearing most of the time. 

I know I’m an outlier, but I personally am glad we are not in a hurry to vaccinate <12 year olds. There have already been a significant number of cases of myocarditis in otherwise healthy sub 20 year olds. Plus the disease is typically very light and easily survived with zero side-effects by this age group. The biggest surprise for me so far is the number of cases doesn’t seem to be much different from a year ago, even though +50% (and in most place +60%) have been vaccinated, that (and data from Israel) tells me this vaccine isn’t doing much and isn’t worth the risk to put into kids.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

F900ElCapitan said:


> The biggest surprise for me so far is the number of cases doesn’t seem to be much different from a year ago, even though +50% (and in most place +60%) have been vaccinated, that (and data from Israel) tells me this vaccine isn’t doing much and isn’t worth the risk to put into kids.


You're surprised a new and much more contagious variant has been able to overwhelm a meager 50-60% vaccination rate? The vaccine I took was advertised as being effective at keeping inoculated people out of hospital beds and coffins, which it seems to be doing quite well so far.


----------



## jebr

*Moderator reminder: *This topic, as noted in the title topic, is to discuss the _mask mandate on transportation_. With the discussion being in the Amtrak Rail forum, discussion should be focused on the mask mandate _as it applies to Amtrak travel_. Other discussion regarding COVID-19 should be placed in a more relevant topic (e.g. the COVID-19 General Discussion topic in The Lounge.) Further off-topic posts may be removed or moved as determined by the moderation team.

Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## oregon pioneer

neroden said:


> Given the Covid case trajectory, I'm simply not expecting things to get good enough for me to feel comfortable travelling until January. We currently have all the school-driven outbreaks, which will be followed by holiday-driven outbreaks. Holiday outbreaks happened last year and will happen again this year.
> 
> Also, nobody under 12 is vaccinated yet, but this is expected to happen in November-December. (P.S. I am truly furious about how many people don't mind infecting children with a disease which often causes lifetime crippling or even brain damage, and just blithely send them off to maskless mass gathering environments in school with no vaccination. Too many people do not actually care about kids at all. Nobody under 12 should be in in-person school in the US right now.)
> 
> So anyway, the holiday outbreaks should have calmed down by early January and a lot of the kids should be vaccinated. So maybe it'll be safe enough for me to travel.
> 
> *SO, I'm very glad the mask mandate will still be in place at that time.* I might actually be able to travel. Though honestly I wish they'd extended it a bit longer than January 18th. TSA extends mask mandate for transportation through Jan. 18



I feel exactly the same way, and am planning a trip (pending approval from the relatives on the east coast) in January or February. I also hope the mask mandate will be extended. Even if it is not, I will be prepared with my stash of N95 masks, and will wear them everywhere outside my roomette. I wonder if I can get a button that says "give me space" (or just a sign to hang around my neck). I need that locally right now!


----------



## neroden

F900ElCapitan said:


> On my Empire Builder to Texas Eagle trip, most (not all) people took off their mask as they sat down for a meal, much as they would in a restaurant. In the SSL, nothing was said either way but most were wearing most of the time.
> 
> I know I’m an outlier, but I personally am glad we are not in a hurry to vaccinate <12 year olds. There have already been a significant number of cases of myocarditis in otherwise healthy sub 20 year olds. Plus the disease is typically very light and easily survived with zero side-effects by this age group.



Not so much. The long haul Covid rates in kids are, according to the last study I read (and yes, study numbers vary) between 4% and 15%. Even the low end is horrifying -- 1 in 25.

Yeah, only a few kids will die (like the 4-year-old who died of Covid recently in Galveston) but a hell of a lot more will be damaged for life. It's not hard to find the stories of kids who were athletes before Covid but will never be athletes again; start googling and you'll find them. This is frequent enough to be a serious risk worth avoiding.

Getting myocarditis if you have *Covid* is more than 10 times as common as getting it if you have the vaccine (disclaimer: I didn't recheck the numbers, that was from memory), and myocarditis from the vaccine almost always clears up on its own. Yes, a couple of people have died of vaccine reactions, worldwide; that is 1-in-100-million stuff, a whole different scale from the 4% we're seeing for Long Covid in kids.

[...feel free to move this if you also move the post it's responding to]


----------



## Eric in East County

Even after the mask mandates are lifted, we will continue to wear our masks when riding in coach and while waiting inside Amtrak station facilities. (The same goes when we are inside any public place.)

More than likely, new and more potent strains of COVID will continue to appear, so wearing masks will probably become a permanent part of our daily lives.

(This whole COVID thing bears an eerie resemblance to the events described in Tom Clancy’s book _Rainbow Six_.)


----------



## MARC Rider

Eric in East County said:


> Even after the mask mandates are lifted, we will continue to wear our masks when riding in coach and while waiting inside Amtrak station facilities. (The same goes when we are inside any public place.)
> 
> More than likely, new and more potent strains of COVID will continue to appear, so wearing masks will probably become a permanent part of our daily lives.
> 
> (This whole COVID thing bears an eerie resemblance to the events described in Tom Clancy’s book _Rainbow Six_.)


Even without COVID, the mask has been great in come ways. Before Covid, I'd always catch some kind of crud, both in the spring and in the fall. Over the last year and a half -- nothing! And I think the stats back me up -- as I read that last winter's flu season was milder than usual.


----------



## Ryan

If by "milder than usual" you mean "nearly disappeared", you're absolutely right. 155 people were hospitalized for flu last year, as opposed to 8,633 the previous year.


----------



## Exvalley

My doctor's office is asking people to wear surgical masks rather than cloth masks.


----------



## jiml

Exvalley said:


> My doctor's office is asking people to wear surgical masks rather than cloth masks.


That's true at a lot of places - seems to be a trend due to the lack of uniformity in cloth ones.


----------



## PerRock

jiml said:


> That's true at a lot of places - seems to be a trend due to the lack of uniformity in cloth ones.



My workplace has been doing the same thing all covid... however forgot to tell us working for home. I got in trouble for showing up to get some paperwork I needed from my desk while wearing a cloth mask. 

peter


----------



## denmarks

The Transportation Security Administration extended a federal requirement that travelers wear masks on commercial flights, buses and trains through Jan. 18. What are the odds it will be extended? I am traveling next April.


----------



## Cal

denmarks said:


> The Transportation Security Administration extended a federal requirement that travelers wear masks on commercial flights, buses and trains through Jan. 18. What are the odds it will be extended? I am traveling next April.


I personally have no idea. I think we might be in the clear then, but who knows?


----------



## Ryan

I was talking about this with a friend the other day. We came to the conclusion that after the first of the year or so (maybe a bit later), we‘re going to be in one of two places. Either nearly everyone will have some form of immunity (either from the shot or from the actual virus) and things will be as close to normal as we’ve seen in almost two years…. Or some other variant will have emerged that doesn’t care about previous immunity and we’ll be screwed. Neither of us willing to even guess which would be the case.


----------



## me_little_me

I have tried to search this site and Amtrak's site to find specifics about the kind of masks required. Are commercial plain cloth masks acceptable? Cheapie surgical look-alikes that provide much less protection than real surgical masks? I'm talking about the cloth masks that cover nose and mouth but no wire and the cheapies that have the wire in them to kinda hold the mask close over the nose.


----------



## Ryan

Do they cover the mouth and nose? As long as the answer is yes, and they don’t fall under these prohibitions, you’re fine:



Amtrak’s website said:


> Neck gaiters, open-chin triangle bandanas, face shields, and masks containing valves, mesh material or holes of any kind do not qualify as acceptable face coverings.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of FDA and whom I feel has great credibiity in his commentary, has a viewpoint. While he doesn't give a timeline, he believes that after vaccines are widely available to children and Merck's antiviral pill is adopted that the pandemic will be over and we will enter the "endemic phase," meaning that Covid will be much like the annual flu. He does, however, believe the Delta variant will have largely burned its way through the country by Thanksgiving. Of course, one looming question is how many parents will allow their children to be vaccinated.


----------



## neroden

I for one hope it gets extended indefinitely; it's turning out that general public mask-wearing reduces the spread of respiratory illnesses in general, period. It seems to be a good thing.


----------



## valkyrie

neroden said:


> I for one hope it gets extended indefinitely; it's turning out that general public mask-wearing reduces the spread of respiratory illnesses in general, period. It seems to be a good thing.



Feel free to wear a mask at any time on your train travels or anywhere else for that matter. I fully support your right to do so. I don't agree it's a good thing and will be very happy when there are no more mandates.


----------



## me_little_me

valkyrie said:


> Feel free to wear a mask at any time on your train travels or anywhere else for that matter. I fully support your right to do so. I don't agree it's a good thing and will be very happy when there are no more mandates.


I somewhat agree but would change your last statement to read:
I don't agree it's a good thing and will be very happy when there are *is* no more *need for* mandates.

We still need them because too many unvaccinated people don't care if they spread Covid to the rest of us, our children and grandchildren, their children and grandchildren, or anyone else, on Amtrak or anywhere.

I don't believe Amtrak or the governments would have any mandates if those people were vaccinated.


----------



## Mr.Technician

At this point I'm wondering how likely a third (I think it was extended twice so far?) extension will be. To each his own, but traveling with a mask on most of the time (especially by coach where you lack a private room) just isn't the same.


----------



## flitcraft

No one enjoys traveling with masks; the issue is, as was said upstream, will we still _need_ an extension of the mask requirement. I would be thrilled if the answer is no, but I think the smart money is on, probably yes. We still have too large a percentage of the population that isn't vaccinated and hasn't gotten COVID yet. Till that happens, we're gonna be masking up. And, if a new variant shows up that is more deadly and/or vaccine resistant, all bets are off.


----------



## Eric in East County

The wearing of masks in public places and while traveling will most likely be with us on a permanent basis, as new and more potent strains of the COVID virus emerge.

There is even talk that we might soon be required to wear medical-quality masks such as those worn by hospital personnel rather than the cloth masks that most of us are wearing.


----------



## flitcraft

Eric in East County said:


> The wearing of masks in public places and while traveling will most likely be with us on a permanent basis, as new and more potent strains of the COVID virus emerge.
> 
> There is even talk that we might soon be required to wear medical-quality masks such as those worn by hospital personnel rather than the cloth masks that most of us are wearing.



Actually, that would be a wise personal decision. I have a set of very good, multi-layer cloth masks, but except for the 6 layer one, which I find hard to breathe through, I don't really think they are adequate protection for a virus as contagious as Delta. I still wear my cloth masks when I'm out for a walk and don't expect to encounter anyone, but when I go to the grocery store or to work, it's a KN-95 grade mask for me these days.


----------



## Cal

Personally, having a mask on does not hinder my enjoyment of just relaxing in the SSL in any way, shape, or form. I still get to sit back and take in the scenery. What can be annoying is off the the train (and outside in general) when you want some nice, crisp, and fresh air and the mask doesn't allow for that. Despite that however, I generally keep my mask on.


----------



## west point

From the NY Times about Masks Take it for what you believe.

An Updated Guide to Face Masks





Tara Parker-PopeDouble-masking in New York




Tony Cenicola/The New York Times
Studies show that a *two-layer cloth mask* with a third layer of filter material is the best non-medical mask. But filtration rates vary depending on the fabric. Hold it to the window to see how much light sneaks through.

Pro tip: Head ties create a tighter fit than ear loops.


----------



## HenryK

We may be masking for years to come. I have laid in a supply of the KN95 masks the NYT's consumer testing team recommended. And I'm 81 and have had the booster.


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## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Personally, having a mask on does not hinder my enjoyment of just relaxing in the SSL in any way, shape, or form. I still get to sit back and take in the scenery. What can be annoying is off the the train (and outside in general) when you want some nice, crisp, and fresh air and the mask doesn't allow for that. Despite that however, I generally keep my mask on.


As the weather gets colder, for the rest of us  , I’ll enjoy wearing my mask outside in place of the scarf I usually wear.


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## AmtrakBlue

west point said:


> From the NY Times about Masks Take it for what you believe.
> 
> An Updated Guide to Face Masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tara Parker-PopeDouble-masking in New York
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tony Cenicola/The New York Times
> Studies show that a *two-layer cloth mask* with a third layer of filter material is the best non-medical mask. But filtration rates vary depending on the fabric. Hold it to the window to see how much light sneaks through.
> 
> Pro tip: Head ties create a tighter fit than ear loops.


I use masks that have behind the head/neck adjustable straps and uses a filter because the behind the ear ones mess with my CI processors when putting them on & taking them off.


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## MARC Rider

I actually get a pretty good seal with adjustable ear loops. I have a 2-layer cloth mask with a PM2.5 filter insert. When I breathe, the mask goes in and out around my mouth, similar to what I see with the people using the N95 masks, and I don't notice anything escaping from the sides.

When it was real bad last winter, before I got vaccinated, I double masked.

I basically only mask indoor or outdoors if it started getting crowded, or any place where it's required.

Anyway, the point of the mask isn't to make a perfect seal or filter out every virus particle, it's to reduce how far the aerosol droplets that contain the virus particles spread. So if a little aerosol gets out and hangs around right around your head, that's a lot safer than no mask and the aerosol cloud spreading 6, 8,15 feet or more. And combined with proper ventilation and air circulation, those smaller aerosol clouds can be dissipated even more, further reducing the risk.


----------



## dwebarts

AmtrakBlue said:


> As the weather gets colder, for the rest of us  , I’ll enjoy wearing my mask outside in place of the scarf I usually wear.


I have a couple of types of Tom Bihn multi-layer cloth masks I've been wearing that have a built-in neck strap, which is handy for dining. The flannel outer layered one was great last winter and will likely be my primary choice for the upcoming season as well when outdoors.

I usually have my 6-layer one with me and have been putting it on frequently outdoors due to a ridiculous amount of construction in my neighborhood, along with high winds kicking around airborne crud in general.

Long term, I think the East Asian comfort with wearing face masks will start to take hold here, especially for travel. The mandates will end at some point, and many will choose to keep masking up in certain situations.


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## jis

Throughout the pandemic I have used an N95/KN95/FN95 mask, initially non-foldable ones with behind the head bands, but since the beginning of this year, folding ones with earloops. They have served me well so far, and I plan to continue using them as long as they are necessary. The folding ones are convenient because I can stash them away in my pocket easily when not in use. I have never used a cloth mask on a regular basis yet, though I do have a few double layer + filter.

In the early days when good masks were hard to come by, I dug into my large stash of N95s that I had collected for use during my trips to India to protect myself against common particulate pollution in India. That stash came in very handy and saw me through most of 2020, both for myself and several of my friends including a few who are RNs.


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## Ziv

The new case numbers in the US have finally started going down but they have a long way to go. Worldometers numbers the 7 day rolling average of new cases peaked for the third or fourth time (depending on how you count peaks) on 9/14 at 182,044. We have been steadily, slowly, dropping since then and today the 7DRA is 98,322. But the 7DRA was at just 10,400 on 6/27 of this year. Deaths 7DRA is a lagging indicator and has come down much less.
And winter is coming. ;-)


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## MARC Rider

The Science of Masking to Control COVID-19 (cdc.gov) 

Masking does two things -- source control (exhalation) and filtration (inhalation). Apparently even basic cloth masks are very efficient at source control, so if everyone used them, especially in places with a lot of people, the transmission of the virus would be greatly reduced. They are not as efficient at filtration on inhalation as an N95 ,mask, but maybe that's not as important if the sources around you have been controlled. Efficient filtration is probably most important to people who are around a lot of people with known infection, that is, health care workers in, say, a Covid ward.

As the health experts have been constantly telling us, the pandemic can only be controlled by doing several things *simultaneously*: Social distancing, masking, getting vaccinated, and improving ventilation/air circulation of indoor spaces. If we don't do all of these at the same time, then we can't expect the pandemic to end.


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## jis

> Efficient filtration is probably most important to people who are around a lot of people with known infection, that is, health care workers in, say, a Covid ward.


That potentially describes almost any enclosed space in Florida since there is no telling what the people are or are not doing there just to make a strong political statement, even if it causes their own death.  Unless you are in Florida you really have no way of knowing how truly and bizarrely bad the situation is in some places. It is the utter unpredictability that is the problem. There are many places that are perfectly sane, and then unexpectedly you walk into a den, in a manner of speaking. You just have to be prepared for the worst at all times if you are out and about.


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## PVD

When NYC was running more "centralized" testing sites before rolling out all the mobile units, a local library was commandeered for use. It had lots of temporary booths set up, both for registration and testing. Of course, masking was enforced, but each booth was also equipped with a portable HEPA filter for ramped up air filtration. On the way out, you were given a tote bag with brochures and other info, a bottle of hand sanitizer, and a package of masks. They were usually double layer cloth. I have a supply of higher level protection masks, but keep them around just in case.


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## joelkfla

west point said:


> From the NY Times about Masks Take it for what you believe.
> 
> An Updated Guide to Face Masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tara Parker-PopeDouble-masking in New York
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tony Cenicola/The New York Times
> Studies show that a *two-layer cloth mask* with a third layer of filter material is the best non-medical mask. But filtration rates vary depending on the fabric. Hold it to the window to see how much light sneaks through.
> 
> Pro tip: Head ties create a tighter fit than ear loops.


For those without NYT access, here is a link from that article to a non-profit that purchases verified respirators & masks from safe sources, and resells them to consumers:



https://shop.projectn95.org/



They have American-made N95's as low as 60¢ apiece before shipping. It came to 90¢ apiece after shipping & taxes to FL, which I believe to be a really good price for verified N95's.

NYT warned about buying from Amazon or other general shopping sites, finding listings for allegedly approved respirators that turned out to be hijacked or false. Some had overwhelmingly positive reviews, but analysis by a 3rd party found that most of those reviewers had a history of giving glowing reviews for products that they had received free "for evaluation."


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## joelkfla

PVD said:


> When NYC was running more "centralized" testing sites before rolling out all the mobile units, a local library was commandeered for use. It had lots of temporary booths set up, both for registration and testing. Of course, masking was enforced, but each booth was also equipped with a portable HEPA filter for ramped up air filtration. On the way out, you were given a tote bag with brochures and other info, a bottle of hand sanitizer, and a package of masks. They were usually double layer cloth. I have a supply of higher level protection masks, but keep them around just in case.


Orange Co. FL used to give out a small bottle or 2 of sanitizer plus a box of cheap Chinese masks at their test sites, but they had stopped that the last time I went for a test.


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## PVD

I understand the mask mandate, and have no problem with it. Since asymptomatic (or pre symptomatic) spread are a real issue, I don't think it is going away anytime soon. Sadly, there are still too many areas in the country where testing is not easily obtained, particularly on tight timelines and at very reasonable cost, since testing immediately before travel would be extremely beneficial.


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## flitcraft

dwebarts said:


> I have a couple of types of Tom Bihn multi-layer cloth masks I've been wearing that have a built-in neck strap, which is handy for dining. The flannel outer layered one was great last winter and will likely be my primary choice for the upcoming season as well when outdoors.


I love my Tom Bihn masks--the neck lanyard is genius, and the flannel one is the one I wear for walks outside. With the easy-on-and-off neck lanyard, it's simple to slip the mask up whenever I see someone coming my way! And it's so soft and warm when the weather outside is chilly. It's a great company generally--they donate a lot to charities, including making and donating tens of thousands of masks for first responders early on in the pandemic when they were in short supply. They manufacture all their stuff in Seattle, and their workers are paid a living wage with good benefits. Are their products cheap? No, but I'm willing to pay to support a company committed to being a good citizen. Recently Seattle parks had a problem with beavers cutting down trees and they wanted to 're-home' them to the countryside where they would have room to make their lodges. So they asked Tom Bihn to design a 'beaver trap' out of ballistic nylon that would safely contain the beavers for their trip out of Seattle, and be reusable. Happy ending for beavers and for park-lovers!


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## dwebarts

flitcraft said:


> I love my Tom Bihn masks--the neck lanyard is genius, and the flannel one is the one I wear for walks outside. With the easy-on-and-off neck lanyard, it's simple to slip the mask up whenever I see someone coming my way! And it's so soft and warm when the weather outside is chilly.


Since the DC area is pretty humid in summer, I switched out to the V6 for the season. It's pretty big looking, to be sure, but it gets the job done nicely. The flannel one is comfy-cozy when it's not steamy outside.


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## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> Masking does two things -- source control (exhalation) and filtration (inhalation). Apparently even basic cloth masks are very efficient at source control, so if everyone used them, especially in places with a lot of people, the transmission of the virus would be greatly reduced.



This, this, this. If everyone was engaging in source control most of the time, we could probably actually get control over the spread rate. 

People who are infected but don't know they're infected, breathing huge clouds of aerosols which spread out 12+ feet and hang around for hours, will keep on spreading the disease even in a fully vaccinated population (95% effectiveness for vaccines == not effective for 1 out of 20 people -- and those clouds of aerosols will touch so many people that they'll find that target). And we don't have a fully vaccinated population yet, nowhere close. But source control everywhere could clamp transmission way down, if people would actually do it.



> As the health experts have been constantly telling us, the pandemic can only be controlled by doing several things *simultaneously*: Social distancing, masking, getting vaccinated, and improving ventilation/air circulation of indoor spaces. If we don't do all of these at the same time, then we can't expect the pandemic to end.


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## Oreius

I’m hoping the Mandate will be allowed to expire in January. My next trip is not until late February/early March 2022. I’m coming home from Kissimmee on the Meteor. I have a comfortable Amtrak mask, and it is nice to be able to take your mask off in your room. I understand rules are rules, but it would be nice to fly down without masking.


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## UserNameRequired

We booked a roomette for part of our trip instead of what we really wanted coach to reduce mask wearing hours…. Now I read the seats are less comfortable for some in roomette. Bedroom for the overnight.


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## dlagrua

If anyone is bothered wearing a mask aboard Amtrak, I would suggest the masks made of cotton fabric. They are much softer on the face than the std paper fiber masks.


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## Devil's Advocate

Once vaccines are fully approved for children I hope that inoculated people can finally return to normal life. Let the rebels remain masked and tested.


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## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> Once vaccines are fully approved for children I hope that inoculated people can finally return to normal life. Let the rebels remain masked and tested.


Even if every child over 5 gets vaccinated within the first couple of weeks of authorization, we won't have them vaccinated until mid-January. We need some safety margin. It's simply too early to remove the mask mandate in mid-January; maybe in February.


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## Dan O

I am looking forward to riding Amtrak again once they drop the mask mandate. I have been vaccinated.


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## Bob Dylan

Dan O said:


> I am looking forward to riding Amtrak again once they drop the mask mandate. I have been vaccinated.


I place more importance on getting the consists back up to par,Staffing the Trains adequately,Lower Buckets, On Time Performance and returning Tradutional Dining to ALL of the LD Trains, but to each their own.


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## me_little_me

Devil's Advocate said:


> Once vaccines are fully approved for children I hope that inoculated people can finally return to normal life. Let the rebels remain masked and tested.


Unfortunately, as news reports and arrests have demonstrated, many anti-vaxxers would steal or cheat to make it look like they have been vaccinated or just claim they have been if asked. Apparently, those micro-chips they claim are in the vaccine were actually put in the ballots they filled out for the last election. A city building where I volunteer and which has a city-imposed mask requirement has given me lots of evidence for this.
You cannot trust any statement or action by anyone on vaccination, honestly answering the medical questions or any "vaccine card". Only government-provided evidence of vaccination should be accepted and we'll never get that with all those who have been chip-installed by their Fearless Leader.


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## yarrow

my wife and i are booked in a roomette spk-chi rt leaving 12/1. i realize masks are required when out of our room except when dining but i couldn't find where the amtrak website addressed if masking in room was required. also, we have had our booster shots so i feel pretty good relative to risk of covid as long as we remember distancing and such. really want to eat in the dining car and not in the room. any advice much appreciated. thanks


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## joelkfla

yarrow said:


> my wife and i are booked in a roomette spk-chi rt leaving 12/1. i realize masks are required when out of our room except when dining but i couldn't find where the amtrak website addressed if masking in room was required. also, we have had our booster shots so i feel pretty good relative to risk of covid as long as we remember distancing and such. really want to eat in the dining car and not in the room. any advice much appreciated. thanks


I think officially they are still required to be worn in the room, but in reality I haven't heard of any SCA requiring them to be worn in the room with the door closed. On a recent trip on the Silver Meteor, my SCA said he didn't care whether I wore it in the room with door closed or open. I even forgot to put it on once or twice when going into the diner for a cup of coffee to go, and no one said a word.

If you get a stickler SCA, you can just close and lock the door and close the curtains on the aisle windows, and no one will know the difference. Just have it ready to whip on when there's a knock at the door.

I don't know how crowded the diner is on the EB with traditional dining. On the Meteor with Flex dining, there were always plenty of empty tables available.


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## TinCan782

On six trains last fall and three more again this past August we had no problem with mask off in our bedroom and the door open. 
If someone would have said something (no one did) we would just close the curtains!
As stated in the above post , just have it ready just in case.


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## me_little_me

yarrow said:


> my wife and i are booked in a roomette spk-chi rt leaving 12/1. i realize masks are required when out of our room except when dining but i couldn't find where the amtrak website addressed if masking in room was required. also, we have had our booster shots so i feel pretty good relative to risk of covid as long as we remember distancing and such. really want to eat in the dining car and not in the room. any advice much appreciated. thanks


In the 4 train 3600 mile round trip I just ended on Sunday, conductors on all trains made it clear that masks in one's closed room were NOT required.

As to the dining room, any time you are out of your room and not in another enclosed room (e.g. shower room or restroom), masks are required and enforced (sometimes strictly). As to eating in the diner, it's like eating in a restaurant where masks are required. You can't stuff your face with a mask on so while eating, masks are not needed. As to when you are sitting there slowly and intermittently drinking the last of your coffee, some conductors are more stringent than others but I never saw a single Amtrak employee say anything to diner passengers at meals as long as they were sitting in their seats.


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## west point

Just be prepared for the unlikely event causing more restrictive mask mandates on your trip. Some variant could rear its ugly head maybe an off shoot of Delta-2. Unlikely but be prepared. Vaccination of course is best protection and booster if called for.


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## Triley

me_little_me said:


> In the 4 train 3600 mile round trip I just ended on Sunday, conductors on all trains made it clear that masks in one's closed room were NOT required.
> 
> As to the dining room, any time you are out of your room and not in another enclosed room (e.g. shower room or restroom), masks are required and enforced (sometimes strictly). As to eating in the diner, it's like eating in a restaurant where masks are required. You can't stuff your face with a mask on so while eating, masks are not needed. As to when you are sitting there slowly and intermittently drinking the last of your coffee, some conductors are more stringent than others but I never saw a single Amtrak employee say anything to diner passengers at meals as long as they were sitting in their seats.



Technically the policy does require masks in rooms at all times, whether door/curtain is closed, and even when sleeping. In practicality…..

The way it was explained to us was that the TSA says a sleeper is still public transit, thus the mask mandate applies at all times. Good luck taking a shower!


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## John Bredin

Triley said:


> Technically the policy does require masks in rooms at all times, whether door/curtain is closed, and even when sleeping. In practicality…..
> 
> The way it was explained to us was that the TSA says a sleeper is still public transit, thus the mask mandate applies at all times. Good luck taking a shower!


I should think the last sentence fragment of your first paragraph amply covers the last sentence of your second paragraph.


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## NYP2NFL01

We kept our masks off when in our room with the door closed. When the SCA stopped by with our meals, or, to make up the room, we masked up before opening the door. The SCA never scolded us or gave us a sharp look.


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## Cal

NYP2NFL01 said:


> We kept our masks off when in our room with the door closed. When the SCA stopped by with our meals, or, to make up the room, we masked up before opening the door. The SCA never scolded us or gave us a sharp look.


Yep, as said before, the rules state it should be on at all times including in your rooms. But I am yet to meet or hear of any staff member to enforce it that way. My SCA on the Cardinal did say if you wanted your mask off in the room you had to close the curtain (and maybe the door too, dont' remember).


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## Law638

joelkfla said:


> I think officially they are still required to be worn in the room, but in reality I haven't heard of any SCA requiring them to be worn in the room with the door closed. On a recent trip on the Silver Meteor, my SCA said he didn't care whether I wore it in the room with door closed or open. I even forgot to put it on once or twice when going into the diner for a cup of coffee to go, and no one said a word.
> 
> If you get a stickler SCA, you can just close and lock the door and close the curtains on the aisle windows, and no one will know the difference. Just have it ready to whip on when there's a knock at the door.
> 
> I don't know how crowded the diner is on the EB with traditional dining. On the Meteor with Flex dining, there were always plenty of empty tables available.


Same experience on the Star!


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## JoshP

When I was in the sleeper room, you are NOT required to wear mask. If your going to restroom/shower, you dont. Unless you are in Bedroom or ADA room, you dont need to take mask off. I never had problem when I rode twice recently. Amtrak website stated it clear you dont need mask in sleepers ONLY.


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## AmtrakBlue

JoshP said:


> When I was in the sleeper room, you are NOT required to wear mask. If your going to restroom/shower, you dont. Unless you are in Bedroom or ADA room, you dont need to take mask off. I never had problem when I rode twice recently. Amtrak website stated it clear you dont need mask in sleepers ONLY.


Please share a link to where the website says that.


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## Steve4031

My understanding and experience has been that you are ok not wearing a mask while in your room. Once leave it goes on. I forgot once or twice during a quick dash to the bathroom at night. But I suspect had I met the conductor I would have been reminded.


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## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> Please share a link to where the website says that.


Amtrak's media feed confirms there is no issue with taking masks off in your room, and there is no practical method to enforce mask rules _inside_ bathrooms and lavatories, but I've seen no statement that it's okay outside private rooms.



> Facial coverings can be removed when customers are in their private rooms.











Amtrak Requires Facial Coverings as Added Measure of Protection - Amtrak Media


WASHINGTON – As part of Amtrak’s ongoing commitment to protect customers and front-line employees in response to the coronavirus pandemic, beginning on May 11 Amtrak is requiring that all customers in stations, on trains and thruway buses wear facial coverings.




media.amtrak.com







> Face masks can be removed on board when customers are in their private room and the door is closed.











Private Rooms on Amtrak Auto Train Now Available for as Low as $99 - Amtrak Media


Each day, travelers on I-95 between Florida and the northeast can skip the hassles of driving and bring their vehicle aboard the Amtrak Auto Train. And now for a limited time, a trip in the comfort of a private room starts at just $99 each way, plus the cost of your vehicle.




media.amtrak.com





Personally I'm fine with people taking masks off in their rooms but hallways are public and people should be masked up when moving around. I also wish Amtrak had better air filtering on Superliner trains especially.


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## AmtrakBlue

But their website page for masking does not say in rooms is ok to be maskless (I'm not arguing about not wearing a mask in the rooms - as I did not wear mine in my rooms on my trips).
But he said "Amtrak website stated it clear you dont need mask in sleepers ONLY."
Here's what I found on the website


> Federal law requires all customers and employees to wear a mask at all times while onboard trains and in stations, regardless of vaccination status or state or local laws. Refusing to wear a mask is a violation of federal law; passengers may be subject to penalties under federal law, denied boarding, removed from the train and banned from future travel in the event of noncompliance.
> Learn more about face coverings.
> Neck gaiters, open-chin triangle bandanas, face shields, and masks containing valves, mesh material or holes of any kind do not qualify as acceptable face coverings. Face masks can be removed briefly while actively eating, drinking or taking medication. Children under 2 years old are not required to wear a face covering. Refusing to wear a mask is a violation of federal law; passengers may be subject to penalties under federal law, denied boarding, removed from the train and banned from future travel in the event of noncompliance.











Coronavirus Update | Amtrak


Amtrak's coronavirus response includes face mask policy updates, cancellation fee waivers, service reductions and cafe service changes.




www.amtrak.com


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## CraigInNC

I was just on the Silver Star and I wore a mask when I boarded and when I went to the diner. I did not have a mask on when I was in my roomette. The SCA did not ask me to put one on when he came by my door to greet me or ask me about dinner. He was out in the hall and was masked so it was pretty safe. I slipped to the restroom and shower without a mask but we were in the last car of the consist (with the baggage car as the caboose) and the restroom and shower were at the end so there wasn't going to be any cross traffic. I never went to the cafe car so I wasn't able to observe what the coach passengers were doing. However I was on the Capitol Limited in June and I was masked for the ride from DC to Pittsburgh.


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## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> My understanding and experience has been that you are ok not wearing a mask while in your room. Once leave it goes on. I forgot once or twice during a quick dash to the bathroom at night. But I suspect had I met the conductor I would have been reminded.


I wasn't. A few times on the four trains on my last trip these past few weeks, I forgot late night/early morning to put on my mask to use the bathroom down the hall and the shower room. I encountered one conductor and two other staff and nobody said anything. When our SCA or the LSA came around, they all were wearing masks and most of the time we put ours back on before opening the door (but while visible to them through the glass) or opened the door with our masks not quite up to our faces yet but on their way. Nobody said anything.


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## JoshP

AmtrakBlue said:


> Please share a link to where the website says that.



This video from Amtrak (Facebook page) says so:









Amtrak - Did You Know? #Amtrak Mask Policy | Facebook | By Amtrak | A mask is required. Watch to find out when and where you must wear a mask when traveling on the Amtrak network. Learn more:...


10K views, 383 likes, 34 loves, 103 comments, 51 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Amtrak: A mask is required. Watch to find out when and where you must wear a mask when traveling on the Amtrak...




www.facebook.com


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## joelkfla

JoshP said:


> This video from Amtrak (Facebook page) says so:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak - Did You Know? #Amtrak Mask Policy | Facebook | By Amtrak | A mask is required. Watch to find out when and where you must wear a mask when traveling on the Amtrak network. Learn more:...
> 
> 
> 10K views, 383 likes, 34 loves, 103 comments, 51 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Amtrak: A mask is required. Watch to find out when and where you must wear a mask when traveling on the Amtrak...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com


That's dated July of 2020, which was before the federal mandate requiring masks on all transportation, so I wouldn't count on it being current policy. The press release you linked was from the same time period.

BTW, is everyone else seeing the link to Facebook in Chinese?


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## SubwayNut

Ignore anything old and archived regarding mask mandates on Transportation in the USA before January 29, 2021 when the Federal Mask mandate went into effect. The only exceptions today which went into effect in June are on transportation that's fully outdoors, like on the outdoor deck of a ferry boat or when on an outdoor area at a transit station like waiting on an outdoor rail platform (or in an outdoor courtyard of an airport, which do exist, Long Beach, CA that I flew out of last month had no problems letting people be maskless in the outdoor courtyard just after security, it was a great place to wait for a flight).


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## elaineprescott

My husband and I are looking forward to the dining car again (first time with real food back) on the Zephyr. Will be able to ask the steward for a table for just the two of us? That way we would not have any concern about being seated with people who have not had the vaccine. That would be a shame, because many of our funest experiences on trains have been the conversations with people in the diner, often from different worlds with fascinating stories. I guess we could ask anyone seated with us whether they had the vaccine, and (hoping they are honest), if they said no, we could ask the steward to be moved. I'm assuming the mask policy in the diner is like in a restaurant -- off while actually eating, and you're pretty close to anyone sitting opposite you at the table. Why don't they just ask everyone to show the vax card? We're getting used to that in Chicago when entering a theatre or many other crowded places. Frankly, we have no sympathy with anyone not being vaccinated.



33

3 Comments


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## me_little_me

elaineprescott said:


> My husband and I are looking forward to the dining car again (first time with real food back) on the Zephyr. Will be able to ask the steward for a table for just the two of us? That way we would not have any concern about being seated with people who have not had the vaccine. That would be a shame, because many of our funest experiences on trains have been the conversations with people in the diner, often from different worlds with fascinating stories. I guess we could ask anyone seated with us whether they had the vaccine, and (hoping they are honest), if they said no, we could ask the steward to be moved. I'm assuming the mask policy in the diner is like in a restaurant -- off while actually eating, and you're pretty close to anyone sitting opposite you at the table. Why don't they just ask everyone to show the vax card? We're getting used to that in Chicago when entering a theatre or many other crowded places. Frankly, we have no sympathy with anyone not being vaccinated.
> 33
> 
> 3 Comments


You won't have to ask to be seated alone. That's automatic. Instead of sitting across from each other like in a restaurant, we always sit side by side - me for the view and she because sitting backwards sometimes makes her nauseous. Since we did so on the Zephyr a week ago, the SLA asked us if we would mind if a single person who disliked sitting alone could sit with us. It was most definitely voluntary to do so. Everyone else in pairs sat across from each other so asking them to allow someone else to sit there would have been a problem because one of them would be very close beside that other person.

Asking someone to produce a Vax card is a waste of time as recent events in multiple states showed that there are too many unvaccinated people that try to pass themselves off as vaccinated so you can't trust any evidence you can't verify and verification on the train is a problem. Easier to just separate people.


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## neroden

Given that Covid is airborne, I generally wear masks pretty much 100% of the time in public. Yet I don't think taking off your mask in an Amtrak private room (when the fans are running, anyway) is really a significant risk given Amtrak's good ventilation.

I managed to find two cites from the maintenance manual for the Superliners: 72% recirculated but filtered, probably at HEPA or near-HEPA level (not 100% clear) and 38% fresh. On average the air is replaced by fresh air every 5 minutes, which is very good (far better than nearly any building).

Haven't found any references for the Viewliners, which lack the obvious "return ducts" of the Superliners, but probably have them *somewhere*. Though it always feels like the Viewliners have more fresh air than the Superliners (dunno if that's actually correct though).

So the issues with taking masks off in a private room are essentially in these categories:

(1) another infected person on train breathes out, it goes through return duct and gets to your room. Since it's filtered, this is a pretty low-risk scenario (and yet it's the highest-risk scenario I'm listing here, because this recycled air is moving during the entire trip, so it's the longest exposure).
(2) infected people outdoors on the platform during a smoke stop breath out, it goes through return duct and gets to your room. Again, the fresh air is filtered too. Pre-pandemic, the filters weren't keeping out 100% of diesel fumes or cigarette smoke though, so I'm not sure whether they're as good as the filters for recycled air. :-( I would hope Amtrak has upgraded all the filters during the pandemic. Anyway, this would only apply at station stops where people were hanging out next to the fresh air intake, which isn't particularly common.
(3) small amounts of infected air slip into the room from the hallway. Everyone's supposed to be wearing their mask in the hallway so this shouldn't happen, and there isn't much airflow from the room to the hallway... with the fans on high, which tends to force air through the room towards the hallway, this shouldn't happen.
(4) You are infected, breathe out, and your infected air passes through cracks and under the door into the hallway and infects someone else. Get a negative test before travelling, then don't worry about this possibility.

I am pretty darn paranoid but even for me, this is a remote enough set of risks that, being vaccinated, I don't think they're serious risks. Much more worried about unmasked unrelated people just sitting or standing in the same room (in the coach, cafe, or dining car, or the hallways).

Indeed, I am more worried about unmasked *outdoor* gatherings on a calm day with no wind. There are a lot of documented Covid-19 infections from outdoor events now. Outdoors isn't *magic* -- it's safer because of the wind. But there isn't always wind. Amtrak's ventilation system is, of course, making sure your roomette has wind!

As far as the federal rules go, the federal regulators just forgot that private compartments exist, and wrote the rules without thinking about them.


----------



## daybeers

TSA extending travel mask mandate for two weeks


The Biden administration will extend the federal mask mandate for all transportation networks through May 3, 15 days after it had been set to expire amid a new coronavirus surge fueled by the BA.2 …




thehill.com




It's been extended for another two weeks until May 3rd. Pretty meaningless IMO since emolyees aren't allowed to enforce it anymore except for asking people to put them on. Most of the time scary, oppressive announcements are made saying you'll be thrown off the train and possibly banned from future travel when in reality the conductor comes by to scan an unmasked passenger's ticket and they say nothing. I'd like to no longer be yelled at by annoucements, signs, and meaningless acknowledgments when I've been wearing one for the nearly two years I've been traveling on public transportation since the start of the pandemic.

It irks me that it seems new riders or long-returning riders seem to be the worst offenders. If I've worn it this whole time, for hours at a time on LD trains I might add, and the employees even more so, you can wear it for less than 10 to get to your sporting event.

Either way, without requiring high-quality masks, actual enforcement, and with the current level of those not wearing them, wearing them incorrectly, or wearing ill-fitting cloth, surgical, gaiter, or other low-quality mask, this mandate won't do much to prevent covid on public transportation.


----------



## rs9

daybeers said:


> TSA extending travel mask mandate for two weeks
> 
> 
> The Biden administration will extend the federal mask mandate for all transportation networks through May 3, 15 days after it had been set to expire amid a new coronavirus surge fueled by the BA.2 …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been extended for another two weeks until May 3rd. Pretty meaningless IMO since emolyees aren't allowed to enforce it anymore except for asking people to put them on. Most of the time scary, oppressive announcements are made saying you'll be thrown off the train and possibly banned from future travel when in reality the conductor comes by to scan an unmasked passenger's ticket and they say nothing. I'd like to no longer be yelled at by annoucements, signs, and meaningless acknowledgments when I've been wearing one for the nearly two years I've been traveling on public transportation since the start of the pandemic.
> 
> It irks me that it seems new riders or long-returning riders seem to be the worst offenders. If I've worn it this whole time, for hours at a time on LD trains I might add, and the employees even more so, you can wear it for less than 10 to get to your sporting event.
> 
> Either way, without requiring high-quality masks, actual enforcement, and with the current level of those not wearing them, wearing them incorrectly, or wearing ill-fitting cloth, surgical, gaiter, or other low-quality mask, this mandate won't do much to prevent covid on public transportation.


This sounds to me like "we're going to do whatever we can before we call it quits." Once the mandate is lifted, there's really no going back, in terms of public cooperation.


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## hlcteacher

i use public transportation on a daily basis and applaud the extension of the mask mandate...just wish more drivers/conductors/service attendants could enforce it more


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## Mystic River Dragon

I will be on a short train trip to northern Virginia in April so I am glad.


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## AmtrakBlue

With cases and infection rates going up, again, I'm glad they extended it since I will be on two trains for 12 hours each the beginning of May.


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## amtraknewbie22

I'm glad for the extension too. I am booked on the Silver Star today which is a 24+ hour ride for me. Luckily, I was able to grab a reasonable priced roommette when the Meteor was cancelled.


----------



## fillyjonk

daybeers said:


> TSA extending travel mask mandate for two weeks
> 
> 
> The Biden administration will extend the federal mask mandate for all transportation networks through May 3, 15 days after it had been set to expire amid a new coronavirus surge fueled by the BA.2 …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been extended for another two weeks until May 3rd. Pretty meaningless IMO since emolyees aren't allowed to enforce it anymore except for asking people to put them on. Most of the time scary, oppressive announcements are made saying you'll be thrown off the train and possibly banned from future travel when in reality the conductor comes by to scan an unmasked passenger's ticket and they say nothing. ...
> 
> Either way, without requiring high-quality masks, actual enforcement, and with the current level of those not wearing them, wearing them incorrectly, or wearing ill-fitting cloth, surgical, gaiter, or other low-quality mask, this mandate won't do much to prevent covid on public transportation.



this is how EVERYTHING goes. If you're raised to be a rule-follower, you follow the rules but have to listen to the announcements (or in some cases - deal with increasingly burdensome compliance tasks). Asking people to wear a mask is not unreasonable or draconian no matter how much some want to paint it as totalitarian.

I don't mind wearing a mask in public areas on the train too much. It's harder and less pleasant teaching in a mask - making myself heard and also dealing with my asthma and slightly restricted airflow. On the train I don't have to talk much. I've managed to make it through, from fall 2020 when we returned to teaching in-person without getting COVID and I'm sure part of that (before I was vaccinated) was credited to wearing a mask - I've had numerous exposures and tested a few times but never came up positive.

I also get that once the mandate is lifted, there's no putting it back, no matter how bad a new "wave" might be; too many people in our culture have made opposition to things like that a big part of their personalities. I think transpo leadership are just considering psychology here. So when they lift the mandate, they better be sure that the bad waves are done. (And if they aren't? A lot of us just won't travel if another one hits)


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## MARC Rider

daybeers said:


> Either way, without requiring high-quality masks, actual enforcement, and with the current level of those not wearing them, wearing them incorrectly, or wearing ill-fitting cloth, surgical, gaiter, or other low-quality mask, this mandate won't do much to prevent covid on public transportation.


The point isn't to prevent every possible case and have a zero percent infection rate, it's to reduce the number of cases to the point that the health care system isn't overwhelmed. So even partial compliance has some benefit. And you don't necessarily need an N-95 mask, either to get some benefit, though, of course, the benefit is less. I have gotten a bit more relaxed about mask-wearing, but I still wear mine inside, especially in crowded places. I would consider a public transportation vehicle (plane, train, bus, ferry) a crowded indoor place, and I am particularly vigilant about masking while traveling in such conveyances. Fo me, it's no big deal, I'm just sitting there and it's not all that uncomfortable. And even if there might be yahoos out there spewing their internal microbiological ecosystem into my face, my KN-95 mask does give me some protection.


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## jebr

A US District Court judge has struck down the CDC's mask mandate on public transportation. From Thrifty Traveler:



> A U.S. District Court judge on Monday struck down the federal mask mandate on planes and in airports, but it’s unclear whether that will immediately allow travelers to go maskless for the first time in two years.
> 
> Florida U.S. District Court Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle’s ruling struck down the year-old federal mask mandate for planes, airports and other public transportation, finding that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) exceeded its regulatory authority. That decision was first reported by CNN Monday afternoon.
> 
> [...]
> 
> While Monday’s ruling immediately struck down the mask mandate, it’s unclear what that means for travelers. The Biden administration could appeal the decision to a higher court, leaving it in place. And the CDC could re-institute the order following the requirements for public comment periods they skipped when first imposing the mandate in early 2021.



As of this moment the Amtrak website still states that there's a mask requirement, and I don't think the current removal precludes Amtrak (or other transportation companies) from having their own mask mandates independent of the CDC (though with Amtrak being a quasi-governmental entity they may be impacted differently than a fully-private company.)


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## Exvalley

My hunch is that transportation providers will continue with their own mask mandate until this gets sorted out - or until the Executive Order expires.


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## jebr

Exvalley said:


> My hunch is that transportation providers will continue with their own mask mandate until this gets sorted out - or until the Executive Order expires.



It's gonna be a mess. I do not envy anybody on the front lines who's expected to enforce mask wearing, particularly now where there's quite a bit of uncertainty (and technically is it still "by federal mandate" - verbiage I've heard a lot - if the federal mandate has been struck down?)

EDIT TO ADD: United's still requiring them pending further guidance from the federal government. First one I've heard of one way or the other in terms of reacting to the ruling.


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## Exvalley

jebr said:


> I do not envy anybody on the front lines who's expected to enforce mask wearing


Agreed. You make a good point that perhaps the safest thing for transportation providers to do is to follow whatever the courts have mandated at this point.

There is a chance that the Biden administration decides NOT to appeal. If they were inclined to let the mandate expire on May 3rd, why risk some bad case law.


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## jiml

Exvalley said:


> My hunch is that transportation providers will continue with their own mask mandate until this gets sorted out - or until the Executive Order expires.


That makes sense with airlines, since you are essentially on their "private property", as is the case with other businesses in areas where mandates have been lifted that continue to require masks. Amtrak and public transit are a more interesting study, since one could argue that's public property. I can see the lawyers lining up on both sides.


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## jis

It is quite possible that eventually I myself will find this post off topic and remove it. But till then....

Beyond the legal jousting I think at present there is a more fundamental problem of credibility.

CDC seems not to understand that a large population is unlikely to do something simply to allow them to assess and that too only on transportation(?). It is not obvious how they would assess what in two weeks. There has to be a deeper and more understandable reason than that to carry a significant proportion of the population along. The flattening the curve argument was a good one when it was relevant, and many more people understood that. Of course now there is virtually nothing to flatten, only to assess if something may need to be flattened months hence, and not even clear how one does that in two weeks.


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## jebr

The TSA will not enforce the mask requirement at this time. No news from Amtrak whether they'll have an Amtrak-specific mask requirement or not.


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## OlympianHiawatha

VICTORY! Hopefully on Amtrak trains all across the country there have been mass unmaskings


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## George Harris

I agree totally about credibility. So far as I am concerned, CDC has lost it. They keep moving their target(s). I am keeping up with the actual cases and deaths statistics in detail for Mississippi and Tennessee, those two because I am on the border between, and the difference between the real numbers and the sky is falling claims is amazing. The numbers of cases and deaths has gotten so low consistently for the last couple months that stats that were published in detail daily are now either 5 days a week or weekly. I am not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, as I, wife and most of family except the younger kids have had the shots, but as to the masks? I wear them in places where I think it will make the surrounding people more comfortable, but otherwise, generally no. I regard them as primarily theatre. If those of you that want to keep wearing masks, I say knock yourself out doing so and leave the non-paranoid alone. I am just as concerned about catching the flu or a cold as I am Covid.


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## GiantsFan

I’m on an Alaska airlines flight and they announced no more mask mandate … my timing is terrible


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## Exvalley

Interesting that the Biden administration did not immediately announce their intent to appeal. Couple this with a very tepid extension a few days ago and it’s looking like this may be the end of the mask mandate.


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## Ziv

At this point, I have to admit that masks don't matter to me. 
You want me to wear one? Fine. 
You don't care? Then I won't. 
It is a a small but real attempt to limit viral transmission. By itself it isn't all that effective but in conjunction with other techniques it is reasonably effective part of a risk mitigation system.
I did most of this masking stuff because I have older, compromised, people I love that I see frequently. Now that they have been vaccinated and boosted, I am less paranoid.


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## AmtrakBlue

Ziv said:


> At this point, I have to admit that masks don't matter to me.
> You want me to wear one? Fine.
> You don't care? Then I won't.
> It is a a small but real attempt to limit viral transmission. By itself it isn't all that effective but in conjunction with other techniques it is reasonably effective part of a risk mitigation system.
> I did most of this masking stuff because I have older, compromised, people I love that I see frequently. Now that they have been vaccinated and boosted, I am less paranoid.


I have two young grandchildren that I see at least once a week. I'm still masking up, for their sake.


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## Metra Electric Rider

jebr said:


> It's gonna be a mess. I do not envy anybody on the front lines who's expected to enforce mask wearing, particularly now where there's quite a bit of uncertainty (and technically is it still "by federal mandate" - verbiage I've heard a lot - if the federal mandate has been struck down?)
> 
> EDIT TO ADD: United's still requiring them pending further guidance from the federal government. First one I've heard of one way or the other in terms of reacting to the ruling.



Interesting how quickly this changed, at least according to the Chicago Tribune (probably paywalled) - united nixes mask requirement but not Metra & CTA as yet: 









After federal judge voids mask mandate, United drops requirement but CTA, Metra still require face coverings


A judge has voided the federal mask mandate for planes and public transit, prompting United Airlines to halt its requirement while CTA and Metra are keeping theirs in place.




www.chicagotribune.com


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## UserNameRequired

jiml said:


> That makes sense with airlines, since you are essentially on their "private property", as is the case with other businesses in areas where mandates have been lifted that continue to require masks. Amtrak and public transit are a more interesting study, since one could argue that's public property. I can see the lawyers lining up on both sides.











U.S. airline CEOs urge Biden to lift COVID mask mandate -letter


The chief executives of American Airlines , United Airlines , Delta Air Lines and other carriers on Wednesday urged U.S. President Joe Biden to end a federal mask mandate on airplanes and international pre-departure testing requirements.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Devil's Advocate

George Harris said:


> I am not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, as I, wife and most of family except the younger kids have had the shots, but as to the masks? I wear them in places where I think it will make the surrounding people more comfortable, but otherwise, generally no. I regard them as primarily theatre. If those of you that want to keep wearing masks, I say knock yourself out doing so and leave the non-paranoid alone. I am just as concerned about catching the flu or a cold as I am Covid.


During the time I was masked I went two years without infections or even allergies. I do not know anyone who masked up religiously and got sick from anything during that time. I stopped wearing a mask regularly after being vaxxed and boosted but that was a compelling experience and in the future when I'm feeling sick or visiting people with compromised health I'll choose to mask up again. I think many of the changes come from the fact that pandemics are unpredictable and supply chains are not able to turn on a dime. So, the advice that is relevant when we have one variant versus a bunch of knit cloths is different from having advanced filters against a dozen more infectious variants.


----------



## TinCan782

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Interesting how quickly this changed, at least according to the Chicago Tribune (probably paywalled) - united nixes mask requirement but not Metra & CTA as yet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After federal judge voids mask mandate, United drops requirement but CTA, Metra still require face coverings
> 
> 
> A judge has voided the federal mask mandate for planes and public transit, prompting United Airlines to halt its requirement while CTA and Metra are keeping theirs in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chicagotribune.com


News reported here in Los Angeles that LA Metro trains and buses as well as Metrolink commuter trains will continue masking until the current expiration.

EDIT UPDATE from Metrolink: 
"UPDATE: TSA officials have rescinded the mask requirement on public transportation and at transportation hubs. As a result, masks are no longer required aboard Metrolink trains and at Metrolink stations. The CDC still recommends masks in indoor settings.
Thank you for riding Metrolink — we'll see you on the train."
from their Facebook page.


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## JayPea

I wholeheartedly agree with everything that Mr. Harris and Ziv said above. I no longer wear a mask anywhere. The rate of transmission is so low in my county that it's negligible, and even within the state of Washington, the new variant of the Omicron variant is very low. I too believe that anyone who wants to wear a mask, go for it. It's none of my business. And if I don't want to, I won't and don't. Now if I enter a place where they are still mandated, I will, if only to keep businesses from getting into trouble for non-enforcement, and to keep from getting into trouble myself. I don't like confrontations. And, for the record, I am fully vaxxed and have had a booster shot as well. I have held onto my masks, just in case, however.


----------



## Bob Dylan

George Harris said:


> I agree totally about credibility. So far as I am concerned, CDC has lost it. They keep moving their target(s). I am keeping up with the actual cases and deaths statistics in detail for Mississippi and Tennessee, those two because I am on the border between, and the difference between the real numbers and the sky is falling claims is amazing. The numbers of cases and deaths has gotten so low consistently for the last couple months that stats that were published in detail daily are now either 5 days a week or weekly. I am not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, as I, wife and most of family except the younger kids have had the shots, but as to the masks? I wear them in places where I think it will make the surrounding people more comfortable, but otherwise, generally no. I regard them as primarily theatre. If those of you that want to keep wearing masks, I say knock yourself out doing so and leave the non-paranoid alone. I am just as concerned about catching the flu or a cold as I am Covid.


And a Mask helps you not catch those also when around others!


----------



## jcastallack

'Meanwhile, in a statement to News 4 New York, Amtrak also confirmed that the agency's mask mandate will remain in place for the time-being.

"As we have seen with the vaccine mandates, these court decisions are subject to review on appeal. Pending further information from TSA and FRA about their mask mandate guidance, *Amtrak’s mask mandate remains in place*," Amtrak's statement said.'









NJ Transit Drops Mask Requirement After Judge's Ruling; MTA, Taxis Hold Firm


A federal judge in Florida has voided the national mask mandate covering airplanes and other public transportation as exceeding the authority of U.S. health officials in the coronavirus pandemic. The decision Monday by U.S. District Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle in Tampa, an appointee of former...




www.nbcnewyork.com







ETA: there are conflicting reports. This just came out from WTOP. "Amtrak, on the other hand, has decided to loosen its mask guidance for employees and passengers, following a series of airline statements moving to “mask-optional” guidance."
Despite ruling, masks still required on Metro, Amtrak and airlines loosen restrictions | WTOP News


----------



## jebr

OlympianHiawatha said:


> VICTORY! Hopefully on Amtrak trains all across the country there have been mass unmaskings



Why? Amtrak hasn't announced that they've removed the mask mandate from their trains. Until that happens, I would expect passengers to mask up, just as they did when Amtrak had a mask mandate before the all-encompassing federal one.


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## Exvalley

The major airlines have dropped their mask mandates. I don’t see how Amtrak can hold out much longer.


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## IndyLions

jebr said:


> Why? Amtrak hasn't announced that they've removed the mask mandate from their trains. Until that happens, I would expect passengers to mask up, just as they did when Amtrak had a mask mandate before the all-encompassing federal one.



He said “Hopefully” - and frankly I agree with him. Masks were a necessary step in much earlier days - but at this point they should be a personal choice.


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## jcastallack

As a person who uses Amtrak for work with no alternative and who is immunocompromised, I will not be happy if it's dropped, particularly with how crowded NE corridor trains have become with the reduced schedule (usually 90% full or more), but I think it's inevitable. I wear a good mask but sitting directly next to someone who is infected as I statistically will be one of these days it may not be enough.

Edit: NY Times now saying it's dropped so I guess it is.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The Amtrak website hasn't been updated to change the guidance yet, but Amtrak is no longer requiring masks according to the articles below.









Metro, Ride On, TSA drop mask requirement following judge’s order voiding mandate - WTOP News


The national mask mandate for mass transit and airplanes is officially over following a Florida federal judge’s order voiding the CDC’s attempted extension.




wtop.com













Northern California transportation hubs no longer require masks after federal ruling


After a federal judge in Florida on Monday voided the national mask mandate for airlines and other forms of public transportation, two agencies in Northern California said they will stop requiring face coverings.




www.google.com


----------



## Devil's Advocate

> “While Amtrak passengers and employees are no longer required to wear masks while on board trains or in stations, masks are welcome and remain an important preventive measure against COVID-19,” an Amtrak spokesperson told WTOP. “Anyone needing or choosing to wear one is encouraged to do so.”


Props to the Amtrak spokesperson for using the correct version of _preventive_.









Metro, Ride On, TSA drop mask requirement following judge’s order voiding mandate - WTOP News


The national mask mandate for mass transit and airplanes is officially over following a Florida federal judge’s order voiding the CDC’s attempted extension.




wtop.com







jcastallack said:


> I wear a good mask but sitting directly next to someone who is infected as I statistically will be one of these days it may not be enough.


I think Amtrak needs a robust HEPA filtration system similar to what modern aircraft use. I've been annoyed by their endless focus on disinfectant sprays since that has jack all to do with spreading C19.


----------



## Cal

I'll probably stop wearing my mask, but I'll always have one on me just in case I feel as if I should wear it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> I'll probably stop wearing my mask, but I'll always have one on me just in case I feel as if I should wear it.


Please don't stop wearing it around strangers and on Public Transportation!


----------



## neroden

IndyLions said:


> He said “Hopefully” - and frankly I agree with him. Masks were a necessary step in much earlier days - but at this point they should be a personal choice.


At this point they should be required by law.

Anyone who doesn't wear a mask in public is committing assault with a deadly virus, and should expect to be treated appropriately, with self-defense responses.


----------



## Metaterra

neroden said:


> At this point they should be required by law.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't wear a mask in public is committing assault with a deadly virus, and should expect to be treated appropriately, with self-defense responses.



This is nuts.


----------



## neroden

George Harris said:


> I agree totally about credibility. So far as I am concerned, CDC has lost it. They keep moving their target(s).



They sure do. With the case rates being sky-high they changed their counting system and started ignoring cases and only looking at hospitalizations. Which is... well, it's a lagging indicator, and it ignores Long Covid, which is criminal.

We're running well over 300 cases per 100K per day in parts of the Northeast. It'll get to the rest of you pretty soon.

Here's the real map, not the new "everything is fine, ignore all the sick people" map:








COVID Data Tracker


CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



covid.cdc.gov





I suspect some areas simply aren't testing.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

It’s about time. This will improve everyone’s experience and especially the poor crews (whether it be airline or transit) who were tasked with being the enforcer.


----------



## Metaterra

Watch the rates for hospitalization and deaths. Very, very low and trending down. Cases don't matter very much.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

neroden said:


> At this point they should be required by law.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't wear a mask in public is committing assault with a deadly virus, and should expect to be treated appropriately, with self-defense responses.


This is totally beyond any sort of sanity.


----------



## JayPea

Devil's Advocate said:


> Props to the Amtrak spokesperson for using the correct version of _preventive_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metro, Ride On, TSA drop mask requirement following judge’s order voiding mandate - WTOP News
> 
> 
> The national mask mandate for mass transit and airplanes is officially over following a Florida federal judge’s order voiding the CDC’s attempted extension.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wtop.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Amtrak needs a robust HEPA filtration system similar to what modern aircraft use. I've been annoyed by their endless focus on disinfectant sprays since that has jack all to do with spreading C19.


I'd love to see this as well.


----------



## neroden

Metaterra said:


> Watch the rates for hospitalization and deaths. Very, very low and trending down. Cases don't matter very much.


Google "Long Covid".


----------



## pennyk

This thread has been temporarily locked again. We are in the process of removing political, off topic and unfriendly posts (which may not occur immediately since it is late in the Eastern Time Zone).

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.


----------



## PRR 60

Amtrak updated their mask policy:

_While Amtrak passengers and employees are no longer required to wear masks while on board trains or in stations, masks are welcome and remain an important preventive measure against COVID-19. Anyone needing or choosing to wear one is encouraged to do so._

Amtrak COVID Policy


----------



## pennyk

DOJ appeals federal ruling on transportation mask mandate



> The Justice Department on Wednesday appealed a ruling by a federal judge that struck down the mask mandate for mass transportation, following a recommendation by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> "It is CDC's continuing assessment that at this time an order requiring masking in the indoor transportation corridor remains necessary for the public health," the CDC said in a statement. "CDC will continue to monitor public health conditions to determine whether such an order remains necessary. CDC believes this is a lawful order, well within CDC's legal authority to protect public health."











DOJ appeals federal ruling on transportation mask mandate | CNN Politics


The Justice Department on Wednesday appealed a ruling by a federal judge that struck down the mask mandate for mass transportation, following a recommendation by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.




www.cnn.com


----------



## TinCan782

For those in, or arriving in Los Angeles County, masks are back beginning Friday, April 22.
In reading this, it appears the order would include LA Union Station.
Airlines are not affected by this so, I believe Amtrak will not be affected either (until you arrive).









LA County to order return of masks on public transit, ride share and LAX despite federal rules


Los Angeles County will issue a new COVID-19 health order effective Friday that will again require masks to be worn on all public transit within the county.




abc7.com


----------

