# Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Of all the states that have Amtrak service, I would think Ohio collectively is among the states that have the worst departure/arrival times along the Amtrak system. Most of the scheduled times are either near or during the graveyard shift (times that most adults would not want to be awake, especially in Am-shacks). From experience, I can say Utah is pretty bad too. There are probably others and a few states with no service at all but Ohio is notable because it is a state with a large population. Two of the largest cities in Ohio, Cleveland and Cincinnati, have late night/overnight times.

Certainly the lack of Amtrak service in Ohio can be blamed on John Kasich and other governors that have neglected rail service. But other states do not have state supported trains and are served by LD trains at better times. Based on the schedules, it looks like Amtrak sees Ohio as a pass through state between CHI and the NEC. Could schedules be changed or trains added to better serve Ohio?

There are currently two routes that pass through Ohio, the TOL-CLE branch which is served by the CL and LSL and the CIN branch which is served by the Cardinal. For Ohio, they have essentially two choices: arrive/leave during the graveyard shift and allow transfers to the West Coast in CHI or arrive/leave at better times and lose the ability to transfer to the west.

Ideally, you could reschedule either the CL or LSL to serve TOL and CLE at better times. The problem is both trains have a lot of eastern passengers who would lose the ability to transfer in CHI if the schedule shifted.

I had previously proposed new trains from CHI to the NEC via Michigan. Another option would be to extend the Pennsylvanian to CHI and shift the CL schedule to arrive in PGH before midnight and leave PGH early in the morning so they would serve Ohio at better times:

29 (7 hr shift) 30 (6 hr shift)

WAS 11:05pm 7:05am
PGH 6:48am/6:55am 11:05pm/11:20pm
CLE 9:53am/9:59am 7:45pm/7:54pm
TOL 12:08pm/12:22pm 5:39pm/5:49pm
CHI 3:45pm 12:40pm

With an early morning arrival into WAS and late night departure from WAS, you create many more transfer opportunities (even the Carolinian and Palmetto can transfer to the CL). Anyone in Ohio who wishes to transfer to the west in CHI could still take the LSL and anyone in PGH could take the extended Pennsylvanian.

The problem would be any passenger transferring from west of CHI traveling to WAS would have to then take the Pennsylvanian to PHL and transfer to WAS. Also anyone who wants to double transfer between west of CHI to south of WAS would be in trouble. Using AAO's Pennsylvanian extension (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf), the Pennsylvanian would get into PHL at 3:48pm so a transfer to the Cresent isn't possible (7 minute leeway) and you would have an hour and 10 minutes to get to the SM. To arrive into PHL earlier, you could not run the Pennsylvanian through Michigan. The Pennsylvanian can leave CHI at 8:40pm, arrive in PGH at 7:05am, leave in PGH at 7:30am (the current time) and arrive in PHL at 2:55pm. You could shift these times a half hour or an hour earlier to arrive in PHL earlier. If you want to add Michigan service, you can add to the CL schedule. That would require a later westbound arrival time into CHI and an earlier eastbound departure from CHI.

If you shift the Cardinal, you lose fewer potential transfers than shifting the LSL and CL
The "ideal" schedule from Cincinnati's perspective (ignoring transfer possibilities) is for the train to arrive eastbound into CIN before midnight and westbound into CIN early in the morning.

51 (6 hr shift) 50 (6 hr shift)
NYP 12:45pm 3:58pm
PHL 2:15pm 2:26pm
WAS 5:05pm 12:19pm
CVS 7:48pm/7:57pm 9:10am/9:19am
CIN 7:36am/7:46am 9:17pm/9:27pm
IND 11:20am/12:00pm 5:50pm/5:59pm
CHI 4:05pm 11:45am

The arrival/departure times in CIN would be way better than what they are now. The train also gets into NYP a lot earlier and leaves a lot later. You would lose the ability to transfer in CHI for western trains but you would have more time to transfer to/from the SM and Crescent. In NYP, you could then catch a night train to BOS/New England.

The Cardinal schedule back in the late 70's/early 80's also had "good" CIN times and didn't allow for western transfers so these schedules wouldn't be unprecedented.

1980 Cardinal schedule: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19800427&item=0037

Now these schedules wouldn't work under the current Cardinal/Hoosier State arrangement. The CHI-IND legs would then overlap and Iowa Pacific would be forced to use two trains rather than the same train for both the northbound and southbound routes.

On the other hand, I think these schedules would work for a daily Cardinal train. Amtrak's PRIIA plans would be to combine the Cardinal and the Hoosier State into a daily Cardinal. But if you do that, you lose the partnership with Iowa Pacific and some of you sound pleased with the dome cars.

What if we had a daily Cardinal using these times and then had a separate daily Hoosier State train using the current times? So Indianapolis would have two daily trains to CHI. Passengers who want to transfer in CHI to/from the west can take the existing times (Hoosier State) while passengers who just want to go to CHI can take the new, better Cardinal times. These times also are way better for travel from IND to the East Coast. To extend the Hoosier State to CIN, you would need a second set and you'd have a train originating from CIN and arriving in CIN in the middle of the night. Would a sleeper car be required? The eastbound train CHI to CIN couldn't practically leave CHI any earlier than 5:45pm. You might be able to leave CIN two hours later and arrive in CHI at 12:05pm (delays would be less of a problem as the train is only CIN-CHI).

I think the Cardinal shift is more practical than the Capitol Limited shift. You would only require the Cardinal to go daily which Amtrak (and many AU members) would like anyway. CIN passengers would lose the ability to transfer west of CHI but would have better departure/arrival times all along the Cardinal route (and some additional transfer opportunities in WAS). It would be easier than adding a new CHI-NEC train (although I certainly would like to see one for other reasons: CHI-Keystone, better times for CLE and TOL, and the possibility of NEC to Michigan service).


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## TylerP42

Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?


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## keelhauled

It seems logistically the easiest solution is to reroute Empire Service train 281 from Niagara Falls to Cleveland for day service form New York (9:30 PM arrival westbound). You would have to carve out a new midday slot eastbound between the LSL and the Maple Leaf; either that or use the current 284 schedule and accept a 4:00 Cleveland departure and call the LSL's time good enough. I'm not really sure what the ridership across New York would do if you swapped the mid morning train into a midday train, and if there was a loss whether the traffic from Cleveland would make up for it. I rather think that it would, but I'm not sure.

Then the obvious route west would simply be a new train, using freed-up Horizon equipment after the bi-levels arrive. Unfortunately, the time change is not in ones favor, particularly if you're trying to run a round trip with one set of equipment. A westbound departure would have to leave Cleveland at 6:30 probably, putting you in Chicago at 12:30, perhaps enough time to make Western connections. Turn the set quickly for a 4:00 eastbound departure for a Cleveland arrival at midnight. On paper it would work, but it would fall apart with any delay heading west. Although, it occurs to me that the Hiawathas aren't getting new bilevels, are they? So perhaps there would still be the flexibility to have a common pool, and the inbound arrival from Cleveland could turn as a late day Hiawatha round trip, then a morning round trip the next day before running back east. So a two day cycle.

Obviously they would need funding. Would New York State be willing to pay for a train west to Cleveland? Presumably there would be more traffic with Cleveland as the endpoint, so if the operating cost didn't change substantially one would think the state might come out ahead. A Chicago train would be harder. The only way I can really think of it working would if a train was funded by local communities, which is not entirely implausible; it happens on the Hoosier State, but seems improbable.

In my dreams, I would supplement this with a train running NYP-ALB-BUF-CLE-TOL-DET-CHI. Westbound an NYP departure at 9:00, Albany at 11:45, Buffalo at 4:45, Cleveland at 8:15, Toledo at 10:45, Detroit/Dearborn at 12:00 and Chicago at 4:00. Eastbound, leave Chicago at 11:00, Detroit/Dearborn at 5:00, Toledo at 6:30, Cleveland at 9:00, Buffalo at 12:30, Albany at 6:30 (extended stop at Albany for a more reasonable detraining time and avoiding rush hour into Penn Station) and New York at 9:15. That covers both Northeast-Michigan and overnight service to Ohio.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

TylerP42 said:


> Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?


You're probably best off giving them AAO's proposals (http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/) if they don't know them already.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

TylerP42 said:


> Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?


Probably the baby step which I'm sure Toledo is already thinking about is extending a Wolverine train to TOL for connections to the CL/LSL and eliminating the Thruway Bus connection. They could turn the 354 at DET to go south to TOL and originate the 353 at TOL.


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## neroden

I actually really like your proposed Cardinal schedule. It would be an excellent schedule for a daily Cardinal. Having it separate from the Hoosier State is fine by me because there should be two trains a day from Chicago to Indianapolis.

The reason this schedule was a non-starter for decades was Senator Byrd (D ) of West Virginia, the main champion of the Cardinal, who managed the train solely for the benefit of West Virginia. He is now gone. Joe Manchin is a good guy who supports Amtrak but he doesn't have the massive seniority and power which Byrd did. WV's other senator is now Shelley Capito ( R) who is hostile to Amtrak, replacing Jay Rockefeller (D ) who was an Amtrak supporter.

By all accounts (such as my acquaintance DP Lubic) the state government of West Virginia is being utterly unhelpful when it comes to rail service. And West Virginia's population is crashing. It makes sense for WV to be the state which gets the nighttime travel, while the states with more population and more political support get the daytime travel this isn't supposed to be a tourist train.


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## neroden

TylerP42 said:


> Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?


If you're going to talk to people in charge of transportation in Toledo, the thing to push for is the extension of one Chicago-Dearborn Wolverine to Toledo, instead of to Pontiac. This provides a day-train service from Toledo to much of Michigan (and vice versa!) -- and it provides a more reliable service to Chicago, at better hours, than the LSL and CL do.

This would also allow for connections from Michigan to the LSL & CL (this is easy, since the westbound LSL and CL arrive Toledo in early morning and the eastbound LSL and CL depart Toledo in late evening). Done right -- with a shuttle bus or something -- people laying over between trains could have time to run aruond downtown Toledo.

It would be of great benefit to Toledo and of great benefit to Michigan. Toledo transportation folks should really be talking to Michigan DOT about this.

Michigan DOT is also considering a Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Dearborn-(Detroit?) train. Toledo officials *need* to start talking to them to convince them to make that train connect to Toledo -- even if it requires some money from Toledo (again, connecting to the LSL and CL to the east coast). This would be a very valuable train connection for Toledo, though even more valuable for people going to and Michigan.

I guess what I'm saying is that Toledo transportation officials should be actively talking to Michigan DOT to incorporate Toledo into the Michigan rail plans. For Toledo, this would be the best thing they could do for their intercity rail service.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

If Amtrak eventually got to adding the STL through cars as they floated the idea in the PRIIA then if a train could leave IND around noon ET and arrive in STL by around 6pm CT (7 hrs counting the time change), Cardinal passengers east of IND could then transfer in STL to the TE (8pm departure). The return window would be around 8am CT to around 4pm ET (also 7 hr). So CIN would be able leave 6 hr later and arrive in Texas at the same time they would with the current Cardinal/TE changing in CHI. A WAS-Texas passenger could leave one hour later to arrive in Texas at the same time.


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## districtRich

I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

districtRich said:


> I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.


The only way I would switch the CL is if there was a CHI-Keystone train in its place so passengers in WAS (and BAL) could take a train to PHL to get to CHI in the morning or to transfer to the west. I doubt that would change your opinion about the CL but I would hope that make it less objectionable. In the old BL days they did use to have through cars to WAS. Maybe Amtrak could do that so that would be your direct train leaving WAS in the afternoon (although quite a bit earlier) and arriving in CHI in the morning.


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## districtRich

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> districtRich said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> The only way I would switch the CL is if there was a CHI-Keystone train in its place so passengers in WAS (and BAL) could take a train to PHL to get to CHI in the morning or to transfer to the west. I doubt that would change your opinion about the CL but I would hope that make it less objectionable. In the old BL days they did use to have through cars to WAS. Maybe Amtrak could do that so that would be your direct train leaving WAS in the afternoon (although quite a bit earlier) and arriving in CHI in the morning.
Click to expand...

But currently the train between PHL and PGH doesn't have sleepers and as far I I know there aren't any extra sleepers to go around, right? Is this only feasible if there are more sleepers? Also it adds about 4 hours to the trip from WAS to CHI to connect through PHL which is bad and also does not allow checked luggage very easily to Chicago since that can't be taken on the Northeast Regionals or Acelas except for that one overnight Regional along the corridor. Unless we are adding additional trains, changing the schedules for current trains is just going to involve people fighting each other to see who deserves the more convenient train schedule.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Any of these proposals would require new sleepers.

To help CLE/TOL and give a direct CHI-PHL train, it kind of comes down roughly to two of AAO's proposals, their Three Rivers or their extended Pennsylvanian.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/

The TR schedule allows better times in Ohio while the Pennsylvanian would allow for transfers.

One reason I would rather use the Pennsylvanian and shift the CL as opposed to just doing the TR is that the only new train miles would be the second PGH-CHI. If you did the TR, you would need an all new train NYP-CHI. I certainly would be happy with the TR and keep the CL as is but shifting the CL and extending the Pennsylvanian would require fewer new train miles. If PA then funds a second Pennsylvanian (which they are talking about) or if Amtrak takes over funding for the extended Pennsylvanian, then the second PGH-NYP would have better times than the overnight hours of the TR.

I certainly understand your concern and would want to keep CHI-WAS as desirable as it is now. If Amtrak could do the through cars to the Pennsylvanian (Broadway Limited), baggage would not be an issue (it would just be a few hours longer). Another idea would be to allow passengers to travel from WAS to PHL on one of the trains with baggage capabilities. Remember the CL would still run and it would allow WAS-CLE and WAS-TOL and not arrive in those cities in the middle of the night.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I strongly vote for truncating the Cardinal to Washington DC.

Train 50

Depart Chicago 10:30 pm.

Indianapolis 4:35/4:44 am (overnight stop)

Cincinnati 8:02/8:12 am

Charlottesville 7:55/8:04 pm (new river gorge is in daylight)

Arrive Washington 11:04 pm. (Maybe depart Chicago earlier, but that would put Cincinnati with service at 7 am or earlier, which isn't the best).

Don't have to worry about getting to new york at 2am.

Hoosier State would run on a more realistic schedule, and daily instead in tandem with the Cardinal, to provide Indianapolis with daily service.

I hope people like it, I'm a HUGE fan of the Cardinal. Thanks for reading!


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## Bob Dylan

That's a very good Schedule for the Card maxbuskirk but Amtrak doesn't want to lose the NYP-WAS passengers from this train.

Others have suggested that the Card should run STL-NYP with a better calling time for Cinci as you propose but slots into/out of NYP are a problem.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

These are my updated plans.

Both add

Direct CHI-Keystone train (Liberty Limited) with through cars PHL-WAS

Michigan-NEC service

3C extension

Daily Cardinal with shifted schedules to better serve IND/CIN

Daily Hoosier State in current Cardinal/Hoosier State slot

2nd NYP-PGH frequency

Plan A:

Liberty Limited is a brand new train traveling through Michigan

3C extension connects to Liberty Limited at CLE

Capitol Limited stays same

Plan B:

Liberty Limited is extension of current Pennsylvanian. Train travels to CHI via South Bend.

Capitol Limited is shifted and travels through Michigan

3C extension connects to Capitol Limited in CLE

New Pennsylvanian

I am not hinting either plan is better overall but merely showing the possibilities of each. In Plan A, WAS gets the "transfer train" while PHL/Eastern PA gets the "Ohio train" while in Plan B PHL/WAS gets the "transfer train" while WAS gets the "Ohio train" (although they would have direct access on the "transfer train" via PHL). In Plan A, I might still wish to pursue the through cars NYP-PGH to the CL.

New Liberty Limited Daily Rescheduled Cardinal January 2016.pdf

New Liberty Limited Daily Rescheduled Cardinal Rescheduled Capitol Limited Pennsylvanian January 2016.pdf


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> I strongly vote for truncating the Cardinal to Washington DC.
> 
> Train 50
> 
> Depart Chicago 10:30 pm.
> 
> Indianapolis 4:35/4:44 am (overnight stop)
> 
> Cincinnati 8:02/8:12 am
> 
> Charlottesville 7:55/8:04 pm (new river gorge is in daylight)
> 
> Arrive Washington 11:04 pm. (Maybe depart Chicago earlier, but that would put Cincinnati with service at 7 am or earlier, which isn't the best).
> 
> Don't have to worry about getting to new york at 2am.
> 
> Hoosier State would run on a more realistic schedule, and daily instead in tandem with the Cardinal, to provide Indianapolis with daily service.
> 
> I hope people like it, I'm a HUGE fan of the Cardinal. Thanks for reading!


If it frees up Viewliners for some new CHI-Keystone route or the Pennsylvanian-CL through cars (since this train could then use Superliners), I'd be in favor of it.

Other possibilities to truncate in WAS/use Superliners to free up a Viewliner set would be the Silver Star (anyone north of WAS can use the SM) or Palmetto IF it is extended to Florida (so it can run WAS-Florida instead of NYP-Savannah).


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## west point

A big "IF". If all present Superliner western trains continue then until congress appropriates more money earmarked for Superliners you cannot expect any changes for Superliner trains. Now when some replacement V-2 coaches are built then some of these trips might happen.

A big but. For the foreseeable future most any additional money will go for NEC critical projects unless specifically earmarked.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

west point said:


> A big "IF". If all present Superliner western trains continue then until congress appropriates more money earmarked for Superliners you cannot expect any changes for Superliner trains. Now when some replacement V-2 coaches are built then some of these trips might happen.
> 
> A big but. For the foreseeable future most any additional money will go for NEC critical projects unless specifically earmarked.


So we don't have spare Superliners? My bad. I guess we have to wait for the V-2's then.


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## ParanoidAndroid

So basically, you're all saying that the new river gorge doesn't matter for the Cardinal. OK. With the following schedules (both of them), a daily Hoosier State is basically required to have any sort of useful corridor train between Chicago and Indianapolis. HIN = Hinton, WV, and I put it here to show the boundaries of the New River Gorge (I know the gorge everyone likes is from Montgomery, WV to Hinton, but Huntington is close enough for the other end)

My schedule for 50/51 without NYC, New River Gorge in daylight, connection with west-coast trains totally work, but schedules to NYC don't at all (so I didn't put it in):

50 51

CHI 9:45P WAS 8:15A

IND 3:50A/3:59A CVS 10:58A/11:07A

CIN 7:17A/7:27A HIN 3:21P

HUN 11:09A/11:16A HUN 6:59P/7:06P

HIN 2:34P CIN 10:46P/10:56P (a little late, but better than 1:30 am)

CVS 7:10P/7:19P IND 2:30A/3:15A

WAS 10:19P CHI 7:20A

New Schedule with New York, and New River Gorge during the night (just flip AM & PM and add New York) West-coast connections are ruined, but I'm not going to worry about that here:

50 51

CHI 9:45A NYP 4:00P

IND 3:50P/3:59P WAS 8:15P

CIN 7:17P/7:27P CVS 10:58P/11:07P

HUN 11:09P/11:16P HIN 3:21A

HIN 2:34A HUN 6:59A/7:06A

CVS 7:10A/7:19A CIN 10:46A/10:56A

WAS 10:19A IND 2:30P/3:15P

NYP 1:56P CHI 7:20P

New York gets the Cardinal, Cincinnati gets optimal departure times, and Indianapolis gets daylight LD service, but Huntington and Charlottesville suffer a little from this, and the New River Gorge is during the night. If we somehow don't care about Huntington, then the schedule posted above by Philly Amtrak Fan would definitely work better.

But IMO, for long-distance passengers going through from west to east (or vice versa), they would take the Cardinal probably for the New River Gorge only, or they actually live along the Cardinal route. Though the River Gorge is in the night, I suppose the Ohio River is in daylight, but it's less isolated, you don't get consistent views of the river, and when you're right close to the river bank, the trees are in the way a lot of the time. But if there's something magically charming about the Cardinal that isn't the New River Gorge that I missed, then I suppose this schedule is pretty good. Thanks for reading!


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## Anderson

One thing about the Cardinal at present is that it gets a non-trivial share of ridership CVS-NYP (and the like) since it's a "reverse flow" train. It's not unlike the Shoreliner for Richmond/Hampton Roads in this respect. I hate to be the one to say it, but Virginia is by _far_ more hospitable to passenger rail than Ohio or Indiana.

With that being said, I don't think that IN, Iowa Pacific, or really _anybody_ would object too horridly if the Hoosier State went daily and the Cardinal operated on a separate schedule. The wacky service situation there just isn't terribly sustainable.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Response to Anderson:

With my Cardinal shift, CVS-NYP is still preserved. You would leave NYP much later and arrive in NYP much earlier. If I were visiting New York from VA, I'd probably rather leave around the lunch hour than before 7am and I'd probably like to arrive before rush hour than just before 10pm but others can disagree.

Response to MaxBusKirk:

Honestly, I had not heard of the New River Gorge before you said it and I barely know the Cardinal stops in West Virginia.

Your proposal to preserve the scenic route and have the train leave CIN before midnight and arrive after 7am certainly helps CIN but unless you have a separate CHI-IND train you've then put IND in the dark. Also, you've taken away NYP/PHL from CIN and IND (if it arrives in WAS at 10:19pm then I doubt they will want to travel further than that and arrive in NYP after midnight). You also take away the CVS-NYP leg Anderson referred to. I'd be open to pushing the westbound Cardinal back and the eastbound Cardinal forward as you proposed but that could hurt if the STL leg starts. If the westbound 51 doesn't get into IND until 2:30pm can you go from IND to STL in time to catch the TE (8:00pm)? You also have less time between STL and IND eastbound.

I'm sure there are people who take the train for the scenic aspect but in reality train travel is #1 a source of transportation. The Cardinal times for CIN are especially horrible with IND not much better and to me fixing them should be a higher priority over scheduling a train for the benefit of river gorge watchers.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Back in my December proposals, I had proposed both a one train and a two train scenario.

So I was thinking about expanding my last proposals to include a second new train similar to the service I had proposed but I am now thinking something slightly different.

One of the premises of mine (and AAO's) proposals is 3-C service that connects as through cars to a longer train running from CHI-NEC. I had proposed attaching those to a new Liberty Limited (NYP-CHI via Keystone Route) and to a shifted Capitol Limited. Back in December, I had proposed attaching them to a second NYP-CHI via Empire Route, Lake Cities). This new train would be in addition to a proposed Liberty Limited.

So my new idea is instead of a 3-C leg/through cars and having a second NYP-CHI train along the Empire Route, I am proposing a single train CIN-NYP along the Empire Route. I will call this the Ohio State Limited based upon the old NY Central railroad Seaboard92 had previously discussed.

My vision is to have sort of an X formation. Imagine one train from CIN-NYP and another from CHI-PGH-either PHL/NYP or WAS with the two trains crossing at CLE. Passengers from Ohio than can transfer in CLE to PGH and either PHL or WAS (the OSL would go direct to NYP). Likewise, passengers from either PHL or WAS can then transfer in CLE to the rest of Ohio. Essentially I have given Ohio access to two routes to the NEC, the Empire route directly and either the Liberty Limited (PHL) or Capitol Limited (WAS) via transfer in CLE. That was not in my previous proposals.

I ran the new Ohio State Limited with both scenarios above:

A: CL same, LL new with Ohio friendly schedule

B: LL new with transfer friendly schedule, CL with Ohio friendly schedule

Assume in both cases the through car option CIN-CLE shown in my previous schedules to these trains is removed and a transfer is required.

In scenario A, you would essentially have both new CLE-NYP legs (LL and OSL) running at virtually the same time. I have them literally on top of each other for now but that would obviously have to be changed. Both trains probably have to be kept out of arriving in NYP during the morning rush hour so I can see some issues.

In scenario B, you would have one new CLE-NYP leg (OSL) to arrive in NYP before the morning rush hour and the other new CLE-NYP leg (LL) arriving before the evening rush hour (it would essentially replace the existing Pennsylvanian). The CLE-WAS leg of the CL would arrive in WAS at 7:05am.

The OSL seems to mesh better with the shifted CL than the proposed LL running Ohio friendly times although WAS doesn't want to hear that. It doesn't make sense to me to have two new CLE-NYP (OSL and LL) to be running around the same time frame.

For now, I am going to ignore the possibility of passengers from the OSL transferring in CLE to CHI (passengers east of CLE can still take the LSL). To allow that would have some longer layovers in CLE for one or both of the trains in the X.

Feel free to discuss schedule adjustments to either of the OSL scenarios.

Ohio State Limited January 2016.pdf


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## neroden

maxbuskirk said:


> So basically, you're all saying that the new river gorge doesn't matter for the Cardinal. ...
> 
> But IMO, for long-distance passengers going through from west to east (or vice versa),....


There aren't many. Cardinal ridership patterns are middle-of-route to CHI and middle-of-route to WAS/NYP. This is why the schedule should not be designed for the extreme minority of end-to-end passengers.


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## ParanoidAndroid

One other thing, Bob Dylan, running the Cardinal 10:19-1:56am eastbound and 4:00am-8:15am westbound would basically be a 66/67 duplicate. So though the schedules don't work out, if people ride 66/67 from WAS-NYP, then the late-night WAS-NYP Cardinal shouldn't cause too much problems.

Or, for better times for everybody, extend the "Hoosier State" to Cincinnati, make it a day train (anti-Wolverine State?  ), and then truncate the Cardinal to CIN-WAS/NYP? You would still have a another "Hoosier state" train, perhaps with a better schedule than the current one . . .

850 51

CHI 9:45A NYP (4:00A)

IND 3:50/3:59P WAS 8:15A

CIN 7:17P CVS 10:58A/11:07A

HIN 3:21P

50 HUN 6:59P/7:06P

CIN 7:27A CIN 10:46P

HUN 11:09A/11:16A

HIN 2:34P 851

CVS 7:10/7:19P CIN 10:56A

WAS 10:19P IND 2:30P/3:15P

NYP (1:56A) CHI 7:20P

That works, removing the need for sleepers, but then diners will probably disappear from the trains and the Cardinal would eventually go away due to unpopularity.

EDIT: I just saw your recent post, Philly Amtrak Fan. The River Gorge is the problem. It's in the wrong spot to provide daylight views of it, yet preserve daylight (or at least waking-hours) schedules for IND and CIN. I suppose the old C&O George Washington and the old Cardinal did the Gorge overnight. The path through the gorge also has large portions where a layer of trees block the view to the river, so though I love it (despite not living there), it's not so important realistically.

Maybe actually a new "anti-Wolverine State" from IND to CIN (maybe from CHI) would work, avoiding waking up at 2am to catch the train, but they'd have to stay the night in CIN if the Cardinal comes in the morning.

Oh yeah, and this is probably not going to happen, but hey, it's great fun planning all of this!

SECOND EDIT: neroden! Thank you! Suspected that, but you never know. There aren't good-sized towns in WV apart from Huntington and Charleston, so the overnight gorge schedule would work a lot. Huntington to Chicago is a day trip, while HUN-WAS/NYP would be overnight.

I still like the gorge, so there could be day train from, say WAS-HUN, and then back, that would work. Need a place to store the train in Huntington though.


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## ParanoidAndroid

OK about extending Cardinal to Louisville KY and St. Louis MO. With the old schedules in hand, I will explore the possibilities.

As of July 21 1963, it took C&O about 6 hrs to complete Louisville KY - Ashland KY. A night gorge Cardinal would work best here. Seeing that the tracks are in worse conditions (if not abandoned), I will allow 8 hours LVL-HUN.

LEX=Lexington, KY

LVL 2:00P

[LEX] 5:00P/5:15P

AKY 9:30P

HUN 10:00P

Connect to Cardinal

Connect from Cardinal

HUN 8:00A

AKY 8:30A

[LEX] 12:45P/1:00P

LVL 4:00P

You would need 2 train sets for this, even if the Cardinal arrived in Huntington earlier in the morning.

As of July 1963, It took L&N 3-3.5 hours to complete CIN-LVL. I will allow 4 hours 15 minutes.

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

LVL 3:45P

LVL 2:15P

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal

Again, 2 train sets required, but if 3-3.5 hrs is still possible, then it's possible with only 1 trainset. Of course, if Philly's schedule is used, then only 1 trainset is needed.

As of April 28, 1963, it took B&O 7-8 hours to complete STL-CIN. I will allow 10 hours here. It would be best with Philly Amtrak Fan's schedule, and the old George Washington schedule.

With Philly's:

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 8:15A

STL 6:15P

Connect to Texas Eagle

Connect from Texas Eagle

STL 9:15A

CIN 7:15P

Connect to Cardinal

With mine:

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

STL 9:30P

Don't trust the Eagle being on time

STL 8:30A

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal.

AM&PM could always be flipped if the Cardinal would run with the gorge in daylight.

Kentucky Cardinal isn't related with Cardinal that much with an ideal schedule, so I didn't include it.

Thanks for reading, and yay 50 posts!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

The PRIIA for the Cardinal suggested both CIN-STL and IND-STL. I think IND was the first one suggested. I had to look further to see the CIN option.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

They did not list any routes or intermediate stops although they said it would require use of tracks Amtrak does not currently use.

The National Limited used Effingham, IL and Terre Haute, IN between IND and STL. Effingham is a stop on the Illini/Saluki/CONO. I believe Terre Haute has no trains at this time.

1977: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770622&item=0042

They had

West: IND 11:40am, STL 5:00pm. Assuming my schedule (arriving in IND 11:20am), you can shift those 1 hr for a 6pm arrival into STL and 2 hr leeway for the TE (8:00pm departure). If it takes an extra hour today as compared to 1977, it would be tight.

East: STL 1:05pm, IND 6:10pm. Assuming my schedule (leaving IND 5:59pm), a 3 hr shift would give almost 3 hr. leeway from the TE (7:19am arrival) and almost 3 hr. leeway to the Cardinal.

I would imagine a CIN-STL might involve Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia, IL (bypassing IND)? If so, that would really break into the Louisville market. I might prefer that over IND-STL if Louisville were involved.

As for Kentucky Cardinal (2001): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20011028n&item=0029

It took about 5 hrs. each way.

I would probably tie any IND-Louisville with the Hoosier State rather than the Cardinal to avoid a split situation like the old setup on days the Cardinal went east of IND.But that would require a second set just like CHI-CIN would. I don't know if Iowa Pacific has any dreams of expanding beyond CHI-IND but I would imagine they would want a daily train first before considering expansion. If you use the current Hoosier State times, CIN or Louisville would have graveyard shift times although Louisville's would be slightly better than Cincinnati's since it takes longer (I would guess 5-6am arrival and 12-1am departure).

If extended into Nashville (approx 5-6 hrs more), you'd probably have an arrival around lunchtime and a departure around dinner time.

Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.


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## ParanoidAndroid

Hello everyone. I see that Huntington - Louisville C&O tracks are abandoned, so that's not an option.

B&O tracks to St. Louis don't go through any major cities, only brushing by Centralia IL. Tracks through Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL are a possibility.

Northern tracks are Indianapolis - St. Louis thru Terre Haute IN and Effingham IL.

Middle tracks are B&O tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, no major cities served.

Southern tracks are tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, passing thru Covington KY, Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL.

Yellow-Orange tracks are the current Cardinal tracks.

Note that track paths are approximate, and they don't exactly follow the tracks.

Full Map




Zoomed in on east side




Zoomed in on west side




I made sure that all the tracks along the route were in place, no gaps, etc.

Thanks for reading!


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## ParanoidAndroid

The Kentucky Cardinal in its final days took 4.5 hrs from CHI-IND, and 8 hrs from IND-Louisville. From April 28 2003 national timetable:

http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=20030428n&item=0029

The section from Indianapolis to Louisville was particularly slow, and only made it a few years on its mail contract.

Story on the last Kentucky Cardinal run (both ways). It has a sad ending  :

http://www.trainweb.com/travelogues/mattmelzer/2003g05a.html#sthash.txGp48R4.dpbs


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

My vote would be for the CIN-STL southern route, stopping in Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia if it can make it between CIN-STL on time and the new schedule is chosen (otherwise you'd be splitting and merging in the middle of the night). You'd add Louisville (and Evansville) to the Amtrak system and they would have access to STL west and CIN and the NEC heading east.

If the train can reach Centralia by 5:08pm CT passengers from Louisville and Evansville can catch the northbound Illini to Chicago. The southbound Saluki gets to Centralia at 12:16pm CT. Can you leave Centralia around 1pm CT and get to CIN by 7:30pm ET? If so, then you now have Louisville-Centralia-Chicago both ways. Otherwise, you'd have to go all the way to STL and take a Lincoln service train. Maybe you can move the Saluki earlier.

Who owns the CIN-STL southern route through Louisville? The IND-STL northern route?


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## ParanoidAndroid

As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.

Connect from Cardinal 7:46A

CIN 8:00A

LVL 11:00A/11:15A

[Time Change Eastern to Central]

CEN 6:15P

The Illini already departed an hour ago

STL 8:15P

Texas Eagle already departed at 8:00P. Even if we eliminate the 15-minute wait at LVL, it still wouldn't work because the train would get in right when the TXE is leaving.

Texas Eagle hasn't arrived yet

STL 6:45A

CEN 8:45A (A Carbondale-Centralia-Louisville train isn't that useful . . .)

[Time Change Central to Eastern]

LVL 5:45P/6:00P

CIN 9:00P

Connect to Cardinal 9:17P

Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.

The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.

The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.

The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).

The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).


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## railbuck

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.


It's INDOT that needs to start thinking bigger. If they do, it seems likely that IP would work with them to implement whatever route they are willing to fund.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.
> 
> Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.
> 
> The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.
> 
> The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.
> 
> The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).
> 
> The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).


Then I would do the northern IND-STL route so two stops, Terre Haute and Effingham. I wouldn't be as concerned about the Illini/Saluki connection north which would only be used by one city (Terre Haute). If you used the old National Limited schedules, there should be enough time to make it between the Cardinal departure/arrival into IND and the Texas Eagle departure/arrival into STL.

Now with the CIN-Louisville pairing taking around 3-4 hrs, you could extend my Ohio State Limited south to Louisville. Depending on which schedule you use, you are looking at a morning departure from Louisville and an evening arrival into Louisville. But they would need turning/storage facilities (then again so would Cincinnati if you had a full overnight NYP-CIN with sleepers rather than the through cars that were suggested by AAO). Extending then to Nashville (around 6 hrs) would put the arrival/departure times in the graveyard shift then.

This is getting too ambitious now but the OSL can then go to Louisville and then to St. Louis the next day traveling overnight during those 10 hrs Louisville-St. Louis. The train would then depart STL the previous night and arrive in Louisville the next morning. So NYP-STL would require two overnights (leave NYP Sunday night and arrive STL Tuesday morning) so I'm guessing no one will travel the full route.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

A long time ago (1979), there were two trains that ran from CHI to Texas, the Inter-American that traveled through STL (pretty much the current TE route) and the Lone Star that traveled through KCY and OKC.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/?p=638634

They used the metric passenger miles per train mile (PM/TM). It found that the Lone Star had almost twice the PM/TM of the Inter-American. The 1979 study recommended saving both of them but the Lone Star was the one cut while the Inter American became the Texas Eagle route today.

My plans if I were in charge in 1979 (I was just a kid back then though) would have been to merge the Inter-American and National Limited (a train traveling from STL to NYP at the time via IND and Columbus) to create a train from the NEC to Texas via STL (the Inter-American would then not serve CHI while the Lone Star would). You've essentially saved both lines with the exception of the CHI-STL portion of the Inter-American (which was already served).

In a really, really dream world, you can extend one of these trains from the NEC to STL to Texas along the current TE route through Little Rock and then reroute the current TE to serve KCY and OKC (you can even split/merge the SWC and TE at KCY). So Texas would have a train to CHI via KCY and a train to the NEC via STL. So maybe that STL leg off the Cardinal becomes a Texas leg. OK, that's too ambitious.


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## neroden

The main problem preventing the Lone Star restoration is train-hostile state governments in Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas.

(On another topic... when Texas "goes blue" as it is demographically expected to do soon, the southern border is going to be a large part of that majority in the legislature. Maybe it's worth thinking seriously about routes to Brownsville and Laredo.)


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Reconsidering Louisville/Nashville service:

The last Kentucky Cardinal took about 5 hrs between IND and Louisville.

The Floridian (1978: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19780430&item=0041) took about 4 hrs between Louisville and Nashville

Assuming the Hoosier State ran daily in the current Hoosier State/Cardinal times (6:00am departure from IND to CHI, 11:50pm arrival to IND from CHI), you could have

850 851

Chicago (CT) 5:45pm 10:05am

Indianapolis (ET) 11:50pm/12:30am 5:00am/6:00am

Louisville (ET) 5:30am/6:00am 11:30pm/12:00am

Bowling Green (CT) 7:15am 8:15pm

Nashville (CT) 9:00am 6:30pm

The Louisville times aren't great but not deal breakers IMO. Louisville probably would take anything right now. You would have overnight between CHI and Nashville.

Another possibility is a Nashville to Cincinnati with connections to the shifted Cardinal

Cincinnati (to/from NEC) (51) 7:36am (50) 9:27pm

451 450

Cincinnati (ET) 9:00am 8:30pm

Louisville (ET) 1:00pm 4:30pm

Bowling Green (CT) 2:45pm 12:45pm

Nashville (CT) 4:00pm 11:30am

I'm not sure if there is any precedence for two through cars on the same train. If possible, the Cardinal can have trains CIN-Nashville and IND-STL. But even if it requires a transfer at CIN, the times aren't horrible like the current ones are. Who would want to arrive in CIN in the middle of the night and spend 2-3 hrs in CIN's station? The northbound train can be pushed up if it can't get to CIN by 8:30pm on a regular basis.

The IND to Nashville would be overnight and require a sleeper but the CIN to Nashville would be roughly a day train.

If Louisville, Bowling Green, and Nashville had both these trains, they can use CHI to connect westward and CIN to connect eastward (and with the earlier Cardinal arrival into WAS, maybe even south to Florida on the SM and Atlanta on the Crescent). Also, Louisville and Nashville would have two trains between the cities a day.

So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?


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## Eric S

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?


My guess is that it's unlikely KY and TN would fund intercity passenger trains at this time. And, no, KY did not subsidize the Kentucky Cardinal's operations. (I think either the city or state may have funded some infrastructure to extend the train over the Ohio River into Louisville itself, but I could be wrong about that. Initially the train's terminus was Jeffersonville IN [suburban Louisville].)


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## neroden

In Tennessee, the locality pushing hardest for train service is currently Chattanooga. Memphis seems to be interested in the possibility of an additional frequency to Chicago. Nashville keeps trying ineffectually to expand its commuter rail.

In Kentucky, the last train advocacy I can remember was for Louisville-Lexington service and it's gone completely dormant. There doesn't seem to be any active group advocating for anything else. If any city wants service it's Louisville, but the advocacy level is pretty low even by American standards; it seems more dormant than the advocacy for Scranton, PA service. Perhaps the best that can be done for Kentucky in the medium term is to make the Cardinal daily.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Maybe the CIN-Nashville and/or IND-STL routes can be considered part of the Cardinal. There's no precedence for two through car branches off the same train, maybe this can be the guinea pig. Technically they could make the IND-STL route a part of the Texas Eagle but then technically they would have two through car branches (if you consider the Sunset Limited a through car branch of the TE). Could they run either or both and require a cross platform transfer and still consider them part of the Cardinal (according to the PRIIA, the SL will essentially become a NOL-SAS branch of the TE)?

Which set of tracks are in better shape, the IND-STL route or the CIN-Nashville route? The STL connection would be important for a connection from the Cardinal to the Texas Eagle in STL (especially if the Cardinal connections in CHI are broken) but the ability to add two new major cities to the Amtrak system is also appealing as well.

Right now my base plan would be:

Daily Hoosier State CHI-IND using the current Hoosier State/Cardinal schedule.

Daily Cardinal CHI-NYP with eastbound leaving 6 hrs earlier and westbound leaving 6 hrs later so the trains can serve CIN at better hours.

Any additional service (STL branch, CIN-Nashville, extension of Hoosier State to either Louisville/Nashville or Cincinnati) would be gravy.


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## ParanoidAndroid

What do you mean by gravy?

I basically agree with your idea. The New River Gorge and Huntington WV has to go (it's for the best), or otherwise served by a (NYP)-WAS-HUN-WAS-(NYP) day train (kinda like the Palmetto).

I'm also thinking that the Hoosier State schedule could be . . . changed somehow? But then, there's nothing better.

And sorry for saying that the Kentucky Cardinal took 8 hours IND-LVL. That was just padding I assume (4 hours though? :blink: ), and indeed it took only 4 hrs 10 mins LVL-IND. Probably would take 5-6 hrs today, like you said.

Time for Kentucky to get more trains!


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## ParanoidAndroid

In a dream world, this would happen.

Yellow is existing service, Red is discussed possible service, magenta is possible, but not absolutely needed, and pink is wishful thinking.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I think IND-Louisville should be red and I'm not sure what route the CHI to Nashville would take (looks like far eastern Illinois and western Kentucky, what stops would it make?)

I believe Nashville to ATL has been discussed on this group but most of the response was it would not work.


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## Eric S

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I think IND-Louisville should be red and I'm not sure what route the CHI to Nashville would take (looks like far eastern Illinois and western Kentucky, what stops would it make?)


I believe that would be the former L&N.

Terre Haute IN, Evansville IN, and Clarksville TN would be the largest population centers between Chicago and Nashville.

I'd suggest looking into getting some rail atlases - I like the ones put out by Steam Powered Videos out of the UK (see here) - it would really help you figure out what lines exist (or did as of the printing) and where they run.


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## jis

Also get a copy of the Official Railway Guide from one of the years in the '60s. It will help you with what is or is not realistic given the infrastructure that was in place back then, duly modulated with information from the rail atlases mentioned above to account for infrastructure lost since then.

I find the 1965 summer edition that I have very useful. More recently I have acquired a set of DVD's containing all Official Railway Guides ever published, which is kind of fascinating for killing time, if not anything else.


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## neroden

Really. Jis, where can I get those DVDs... and how far back do they go?

The first Official Guide was published in 1868, and it was *MONTHLY*. Even though that's a good 38 years after US railway development started, I'd still find the very early ones fascinating.


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## ParanoidAndroid

Indeed, I have been using my Autumn 1963 Official Guide to the Railways that I got for 2 bucks at the Illinois Railway Museum! It's just before all the trains went away, so I can still see what was running. I've only had to look up the schedules Cincinnati OH - Louisville KY - St. Louis MO because L&N discontinued that in 1958.

Also, the Chicago IL - Evansville IN - Nashville TN route doesn't go through Clarksville TN, though it's close. Hopkinsville KY, a good candidate for a stop, would be 24 miles from Clarksville TN, and small-town Guthrie KY is 13 miles from Clarksville TN.

Note that on the map, there probably isn't a direct St. Louis MO - Louisville KY - Cincinnati OH train to connect with the Cardinal. There would, of course as discussed above, a St. Louis MO - Effingham IL - Terre Haute IN - Indianapolis IN train to connect from the Texas Eagle to the Cardinal, avoiding Chicago and serving new cities.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I made Indianapolis IN - Louisville KY red, as well as some minor rerouting north of Terre Haute IN because of an error I made, and west of Jacksonville FL for more detail (kind of unrelated).




Note that the red route south of Nashville goes through rural corners of Alabama and Georgia to reach Chattanooga TN, then turns back south through Georgia to connect with the Crescent at Atlanta GA. I am quite busy at the moment, so I will try to make schedules for these routes later (which might not be until Friday).


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## ParanoidAndroid

And how would Nashville TN - Chattanooga TN - Atlanta GA not work? Rickety track? I guess I will come up with schedules later.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> And how would Nashville TN - Chattanooga TN - Atlanta GA not work? Rickety track? I guess I will come up with schedules later.


http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/?p=632454


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## Eric S

maxbuskirk said:


> Also, the Chicago IL - Evansville IN - Nashville TN route doesn't go through Clarksville TN, though it's close. Hopkinsville KY, a good candidate for a stop, would be 24 miles from Clarksville TN, and small-town Guthrie KY is 13 miles from Clarksville TN.


Ugh. Thanks for the correction. That's what I get for not consulting the rail atlas that I referenced before making that comment.


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## jis

neroden said:


> Really. Jis, where can I get those DVDs... and how far back do they go?
> 
> The first Official Guide was published in 1868, and it was *MONTHLY*. Even though that's a good 38 years after US railway development started, I'd still find the very early ones fascinating.


You can order it through amazon.com. It is actually produced and sold by Taplines. Don Hensley is the person who does it. He is out of Bartow FL, and is a very nice guy.

As far as I can tell the set contains virtually everything from 1868 to 1969. Before 1868 there were no Official Guides. What is included is the 1848 Appleton's Railway Guide and the 1851 American Railway Guide.

Here is a direct link to the page for the whole set. You can also order each of the three DVDs in the set individually.

Official Guide Railway Collection 1848 - 1969

I actually overstated on the "every one ever published, since the Official Guide was published for several years after 1969. I have a 1971 paper copy. Incidentally I also have a paper copy facsimile of the 1868 first issue.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I have made Nashville TN - Chattanooga TN - Atlanta GA pink. Sorry Chattanooga.

Oh, and mind the time change, which helps me (going westbound), and hurts me (going eastbound). In fact, these schedules depend on the westbound time change to provide well-timed service to their destinations, yet still connect to the Texas Eagle. Louisville is a still a bit tight though.

Schedules St. Louis MO - Louisville KY, and we don't really need through cars. People are capable of transferring trains on their own. Took 10 hours for L&N to do this in 1958. Say 13 hours now (I know, it's a bit much, but that track is probably OLD as hell and very rickety too).

Texas Eagle Arrive St. Louis MO 7:19A/Depart 7:55A

St. Louis MO 8:15A (sadistic to assume trains are late, though it's true)

Centralia IL 10:30A (meh)

Crew Change

Louisville KY 10:30P

Louisville KY 7:00A

Crew Change

Centralia IL 5:00P (extremely tight transfer to the northbound Saluki, probably delay it a bit to 5:30P or so)

St. Louis MO 7:15P

Texas Eagle Arrive St. Louis MO 7:21P/Depart 8:00P 

Amtrak took 2 hours to do Centralia IL to St. Louis, as did Southern 2.5 hours from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO, so I added that in as-is, with a bit of delay. Connecting to the Cardinal on this route is hopeless with these schedules.

Schedules St. Louis MO - Indianapolis IN

Next, Amtrak took 5 - 5.5 hours to do STL - IND in 1979. Say 7 hours today.

Texas Eagle Arrive St. Louis MO 7:19A/Depart 7:55A

St. Louis MO 8:30A

Effingham IL 11:15A (great for going to Carbondale)

Terre Haute IN 2:35P

Indianapolis IN 4:30P

Cardinal Arrive Indianapolis IN 5:50P/Depart 5:59P

Cardinal Arrive Indianapolis IN 11:20A/12:00N

Indianapolis IN 1:00P

Terre Haute IN 2:55P

Effingham IL 4:15P

St. Louis MO 7:00P

Texas Eagle Arrive St. Louis MO 7:21P/Depart 8:00P 

That's it for this post. Thanks for reading.


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## neroden

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really. Jis, where can I get those DVDs... and how far back do they go?
> 
> The first Official Guide was published in 1868, and it was *MONTHLY*. Even though that's a good 38 years after US railway development started, I'd still find the very early ones fascinating.
> 
> 
> 
> You can order it through amazon.com. It is actually produced and sold by Taplines. Don Hensley is the person who does it. He is out of Bartow FL, and is a very nice guy.
> 
> As far as I can tell the set contains virtually everything from 1868 to 1969. Before 1868 there were no Official Guides. What is included is the 1848 Appleton's Railway Guide and the 1851 American Railway Guide.
> 
> Here is a direct link to the page for the whole set. You can also order each of the three DVDs in the set individually.
> 
> Official Guide Railway Collection 1848 - 1969
> 
> I actually overstated on the "every one ever published, since the Official Guide was published for several years after 1969. I have a 1971 paper copy. Incidentally I also have a paper copy facsimile of the 1868 first issue.
Click to expand...

OK, I see he didn't actually get anywhere *near* every one ever published. It's a good cross-section but it advertises that it only has one every few years, a total of 42 and there's a *big* gap from 1910 to 1930. As I say the Official Guide was originally updated monthly (!!!!).

I guess these are the ones he was able to get copies of -- it would be a pretty long shot to find copies of every issue of a monthly publication for 100 years, and it would probably be a lot of DVDs!


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## ParanoidAndroid

But seeing it takes 4 hours to drive STL to LVL and 4 hours STL to IND, these trains aren't competitive at all. Might as well cancel STL to LVL.


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## ParanoidAndroid

This has become a Cardinal extension and dream fantasy land thread, rather than an Ohio State Limited thread. I'm sorry for interrupting Philly. Perhaps I'll start a new Cardinal extension thread.

I'm getting too enthusiastic about unrealistic stuff. Realistically, if we're quite lucky, we'll get a changed Cardinal schedule, an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO connection, and MAYBE a Kentucky Cardinal resurrection to Louisville, and then if we're REALLY lucky, then to Nashville, but after that is completely dream-land to me. Sorry to be pessimistic, but that's the feeling I get from the state of Amtrak now and the forum and the smart people on here. Like you and the Atlanta schedule guy on the other thread and such.

Only if Amtrak gets really much more support and money and equipment, then there might be consideration of a start of a web of trains in Kentucky and surrounding cities (like St. Louis, Nashville, Atlanta etc). Then we can more realistically dream of Floridians and Tennesseans (Washington - Roanoke - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Memphis, crazy right?) and National Limited connections with the SWC and more.

If I'm too pessimistic, please tell me.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> This has become a Cardinal extension and dream fantasy land thread, rather than an Ohio State Limited thread. I'm sorry for interrupting Philly. Perhaps I'll start a new Cardinal extension thread.
> 
> I'm getting too enthusiastic about unrealistic stuff. Realistically, if we're quite lucky, we'll get a changed Cardinal schedule, an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO connection, and MAYBE a Kentucky Cardinal resurrection to Louisville, and then if we're REALLY lucky, then to Nashville, but after that is completely dream-land to me. Sorry to be pessimistic, but that's the feeling I get from the state of Amtrak now and the forum and the smart people on here. Like you and the Atlanta schedule guy on the other thread and such.
> 
> Only if Amtrak gets really much more support and money and equipment, then there might be consideration of a start of a web of trains in Kentucky and surrounding cities (like St. Louis, Nashville, Atlanta etc). Then we can more realistically dream of Floridians and Tennesseans (Washington - Roanoke - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Memphis, crazy right?) and National Limited connections with the SWC and more.
> 
> If I'm too pessimistic, please tell me.


Considering what Amtrak has done to LD service between my first Broadway Limited trip and today, you're not too pessimistic, you're realistic.

We are all waiting patiently for the Viewliner II's and things should in theory change. In my opinion, the BL/TR should be the first LD train that should be added (if they run via TOL/CLE then there are no new tracks that need to be run although if they can negotiate a Michigan/Toledo connection they can run the train from CHI to the Detroit area and then to Toledo). As much as everyone wants a daily Cardinal, Buckingham Branch still has to be fixed even if the Viewliner II's begin running.

Then again speaking of Buckingham Branch, Amtrak's timetable lists Buckingham Branch from Culpeper to Clifton Forge.

Current Culpepper to Clifton Forge times:

51: 12:30-4:18pm

50: 12:44-4:35pm

So these trains are traveling Buckingham Branch at around the same time.

My proposed time switches:

51: 6:30-10:18pm

50: 6:44-10:35am

The trains are then spaced out.

If Buckingham Branch didn't have to worry about two Amtrak trains running around the same time on its tracks could Amtrak then be permitted to run the Cardinal daily? The irony is that if I'm reading the schedule correct both Cardinal trains serve the Buckingham Branch route on the same days (WeFrSun). You would think they would rather break them up so instead of having two trains on the same route at the same time on the same three days, you could have just one train six days a week.

To me, if you are going to expand Cardinal service you have to reschedule it to serve Cincinnati at better times. Otherwise, you have a train arriving/departing seven days a week during the graveyard shift instead of three days a week. Having the train leave CIN before midnight and arrive in CIN early in the morning screws Indy. Other than the endpoints which have other trains available for CHI-NEC travel, Indy and Cincinnati are the biggest unique markets along the Amtrak route (counting total population and not ridership). Shouldn't they be the priority of the Cardinal then? Sure, making a train daily in Cincinnati during the graveyard shift may very well double the current ridership. Why not put the times at regular hours and maybe Cincinnati ridership triples then? And then the times for the proposed Oxford stop would be outside the graveyard shift as well.


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## ParanoidAndroid

Wow. Never noticed that the 2 trains, run at the same time of day, on the same days on the Buckingham Branch. Almost seems like everyone was trying to hide it, or just didn't realize that was happening.

I think it's a great idea, as already discussed, to reschedule the Cardinal. The one you provide (as did Amtrak and C&O forever) is the best. Basically, we're making the Cardinal revert to the older schedule. Do you know the reason why Amtrak changed the Cardinal schedule to what it is today? Yes, the New River Gorge, but they basically gave up on good service to Cincinnati and Indianapolis, and to New York a bit (6:45am/9:56pm isn't that great). Was it conflict with the host railroads, or something else?

It was only changed randomly in the April 29, 1984 timetable, with Cardinal departing New York City at 6:30am instead of 4:30pm, bringing night-time service to Indianapolis and Cincinnati.

The rescheduling, as you said, would separate Cardinal times on the Buckingham, and bring daylight service to major cities on the route. Only Huntington and Charleston get thrown into the middle of the night. Even then, it's possible to reschedule it so that Huntington & Charleston get barely waking-hour service (like 7:00am going westbound and 11:00pm going eastbound), as I think I mentioned in one of my earlier Cardinal schedules. This would only make the Indianapolis to St. Louis connection a bit tighter. So if the St. Louis connection is gonna operate, it's best to leave Huntington & Charleston in the middle of the night  .

It is funny that everyone says Buckingham Branch is old and worn out, etc, but they never think of rescheduling the train.


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## neroden

Historically, the Cardinal was backed by a Senator from West Virginia, which accounts for the schedule.

He's dead. It's time to change the Cardinal schedule to something which is better for everything east of WV and west of WV.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I'm happy that the Cardinal schedule changing doesn't seem that big of a deal (in terms of money, political support, yada yada yada)

Are there enough Superliners and/or Amfleets to do a Washington - Huntington - Washington day trip? It would need 2 train-sets to do it, and an overnight storage spot in Huntington WV. It would only need a few coaches, and a cafe car.

951 "Kanawha" or "Mountain State"?

WAS 920A (current Cardinal schedule, subtract 1 hour 40 mins)

CLP 1045A

CLF 238P

HUN 804P

950 "Kanawha" or "Mountain State"?

HUN 926A (current Cardinal schedule, add 2 hours 10 minutes)

CLF 254P

CLP 645P

WAS 829P

This would be extremely tight for the Buckingham Branch, with 4 trains running on it a day. (oh my gosh, 4 trains a day?!?! That's, like, a whole bunch!!!  ) How many freight trains does this railroad carry every day?

But still, if we take another look, even with this new train, all the trains are running on it at different times of day, assuming the Cardinal is rescheduled. And these trains really need to be on-time for this to work, otherwise one of these will be delayed for hours, and that will absolutely crazy.

First train of the day, Cardinal #50

Clifton Forge VA 644A

Culpeper VA 1035A

Second train of the day, my new train #951

Culpeper VA 1045A

Clifton Forge VA 238P

Third train of the day, my new train #950

Clifton Forge VA 254P

Culpeper VA 645P

Fourth train of the day, Cardinal #51

Culpeper VA 710P

Clifton Forge VA 1058P

But they seriously need to add more sidings for this to work. These trains might literally hog up the whole railroad without adequate sidings. At least that's what I've heard.

Oh, and this is probably as far as my realistic dreaming will go.


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## Thirdrail7

I generally stay out of the fantasies of others since, in a fantasy world, all things are possible.

However, i just want to remind everyone that the timetables are set up around traffic, equipment turns and personnel availability.

When determining whether your ideals are truly feasible, do not forget to calculate these items into your equations. An example is the Cardinal has a same day turn in CHI to preserve equipment. If that turn isn't preserved, you'll need additional equipment.

Carry on!


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## ParanoidAndroid

See? I'm an amateur schedule-creator.

On this schedule

130P NYP

545P WAS

826A CIN

450P CHI

1145A CHI

927P CIN

1219P WAS

358P NYP

4 trains-sets required for daily service. If truncated to WAS and Amtrak can clean the train in 5.5 hours, then only 3 trains-sets required.

3 trains-sets for 3 days a week service, and 2 train-sets if truncated in WAS and cleaned in 5.5 hours.

On this schedule

(400A NYP)

815A WAS

1041P CIN

720A CHI

945P CHI

727A CIN

1019P WAS

(158A NYP)

4 train-sets required for daily service from CHI to NYP, the whole route, unless Amtrak can clean the train in 2 hours (unlikely, it also can be late). 3 train-sets for 3 days a week service CHI-NYP.

3 train-sets required for daily service if the train operates CHI-WAS, with a connection train up to NYP. 2 train-sets for 3 days a week service CHI-WAS.


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## ParanoidAndroid

OK so if the turn is preserved, then what?

I would invert the schedule around Cincinnati, tweak it a bit, then see what happens.

CHI 545A

CIN 327P

WAS 619A

NYP 958A.

Horrible schedule. Let's shift it a couple hours forward.

CHI 800A

CIN 543P

WAS 834A

NYP 1213P Much better.

Coming back:

NYP 645P

WAS 1100P

CIN 141P

CHI 1005P

Hmm . . . maybe shift it an hour or two back?

NYP 515P

WAS 930P

CIN 1211P

CHI 835P

This would only work if Amtrak can clean the train in 4 hours at NYP, since the eastbound arrives at 1143A, and the westbound departs at 500P.

Now I'm really pushing it:

CHI 715A (maybe 740A would work better)

CIN 458P (523P)

WAS 749A (814A)

NYP 1128A (1153A)

NYP 600P (maybe 610P)

WAS 1015P (1025P)

CIN 1256P (106P)

CHI 920P (930P)

So the turn can only be preserved at the cost of stretching out the departure/arrival times at Chicago and the NEC, because the train has to serviced/cleaned between each run.

If we can run it only to Washington, and run a dedicated (or just close enough) connection train up to NYP, that extra roundtrip 3.5-4 hours each way will be gained, and put into evening out the rest of the schedule.

But, these stretched-out departure times will help spread-out the schedules of my possible WAS-HUN day train, which might be a silly idea, but hey. There's at least a resort at White Sulphur Springs (Greenbrier). 

But if Amtrak is REALLY short on equipment (which I suppose it is), this is probably good enough for them. Problem 90% solved.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Max, if Amtrak can turn around the trains in NYP with the times you listed, I can support them. The one problem is it put Charlottesville into the graveyard shift both ways and I think that's a big market currently on the Cardinal which you could potentially lose to make up for gaining Cincinnati. My proposals, while requiring an extra train set, allow the Cardinal to give Cincinnati and Indianapolis good times and keep good times in Charlottesville.

When I was working on my proposal for a Charlotte/Atlanta-Florida train, one of the suggestions was moving the Silver Meteor back to an evening departure from NYP as was the case back a few years ago. Then, the train could be turned in NYP and travel south the same day which is not the case today (11:00am-3:15pm). I'm not sure why Amtrak then went from a schedule that required 3 sets to one requiring 4 but it isn't unprecedented.

And as you mentioned before Max, the Cardinal in the old days did serve Cincinnati at good hours but it looks like they only needed 3 sets as well and the train only went as far as WAS.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19780108&item=0035

They clearly had plenty of time to turn the train in WAS (8:35am to 9:35pm). Had they used the transfer trains listed to NYP the layover in New York would've been 12:56pm to 5:00pm, tighter than any schedule you have proposed.

I'm big on helping Ohio because All Aboard Ohio looks to be the only group I'm aware of with a proposal for a CHI-PGH-HAR-PHL train (not just the CL split/merge, a full train). I have seen other proposals in the past from AAO which involve CHI-PHL trains as well. Western Pennsylvanians for Passenger Rail efforts seem to center around multiple PGH-NYP trains. The Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers hardly even discusses Amtrak at their website. Though I feel the BL/TR were stolen, even I admit Ohio has it way worse than PHL (or even HAR). And I think AAO's idea for a CHI-NEC train via Michigan is brilliant. If Amtrak can re-establish service between Michigan and Toledo (even if it's just an extension of the Wolverine and passengers have to transfer in the middle of the night in Toledo, it still has to be better than the current Thruway bus situation there now), I think it's a game changer.

So I'm all for CIN and CLE/TOL having trains at better hours.


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## afigg

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Then again speaking of Buckingham Branch, Amtrak's timetable lists Buckingham Branch from Culpeper to Clifton Forge.
> 
> Current Culpepper to Clifton Forge times:
> 
> 51: 12:30-4:18pm
> 
> 50: 12:44-4:35pm
> 
> So these trains are traveling Buckingham Branch at around the same time.
> 
> My proposed time switches:
> 
> 51: 6:30-10:18pm
> 
> 50: 6:44-10:35am
> 
> The trains are then spaced out.
> 
> If Buckingham Branch didn't have to worry about two Amtrak trains running around the same time on its tracks could Amtrak then be permitted to run the Cardinal daily? The irony is that if I'm reading the schedule correct both Cardinal trains serve the Buckingham Branch route on the same days (WeFrSun). You would think they would rather break them up so instead of having two trains on the same route at the same time on the same three days, you could have just one train six days a week.


The Cardinal schedule is designed to have both the east and westbound trains on the Buckingham Branch on the same day and time because that is exactly what BBRR wants. The North Mountain subdivision that the Cardinal runs on is a single track line with the longest siding at around 5600 feet long. The line is used by CSX to move 8000' long empty coal trains westbound. So there are no sidings for 116 miles that can fit the coal trains. Which means that when a Cardinal is running over the line, #51 could get stuck behind a slow coal train for a 100 miles or #50 would have to pull onto a siding and wait for the coal train to pass. What the BBRR does is to keep the coal trains and any other long freight trains off the line during the 3 days a week period the Cardinals are scheduled to come through. If the Cardinals came through at different times of the day, then there would be more schedule conflicts with the coal trains. There was an article in Trains Magazine a few years ago on the Buckingham Branch that went into detail on their operations and tracks. The BBRR is a constraint on the schedule options for the Cardinal and for going to daily service.
Virginia DRPT had a line item in their 6 year budget plan for a siding project on the BBRR North Mountain subdivision which was apparently a siding extension, but it is not listed in the FY16 Six Year Improvement Plan. Don't know if it was dropped or postponed.


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## Thirdrail7

Mr. Afigg,

Please don't bring facts into a fantasy thread. How rude!! :giggle:

I am captivated by these schedule proposals even though as previously mentioned, they are devoid of reality since they haven't accounted for traffic, host railroad profiles, equipment turns, equipment availability , crew turns or even S&I profiles in Amtrak terminals.

I'm really loving this whole sticking 51 out at the height of the commission period. ^_^


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Sounds like Buckingham Branch is too much a pain in the butt to deal with and Amtrak would be better off re-routing the Cardinal to another route (at least until they get it fixed). Anything Amtrak can run a daily train is better than having to deal with this for the next 5-10 years or however long it takes. Either run it through Columbus and Pittsburgh or maybe the old Shenandoah route. Or ... well you don't want me to say it.

Or just find a way to get Cincinnati some other train that they don't have to board during the graveyard shift.


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## ParanoidAndroid

CSX has abandoned the line between Clarksburg WV and Parksburg WV, so the Shenandoah route is unusable.

If we're via Columbus and PGH to NYP, might as well passengers use your Ohio State Limited rather than the Cardinal, instead they want to go to Philly or Pittsburgh or something. But here it is based on your OSL schedule and the Old National Limited schedule:

CHI 11:15A

CIN 8:47/8:57P

Columbus OH 12:05A

PGH 4:55A Harumph connect to the Capitol Limited? 5:05A/5:20A

OK fine

PHL 1:00P

NYP 3:00P

NYP 1:40P

PHL 3:45P

PGH 11:30P hehehe Cap 11:48P/11:59P

Columbus OH 4:10A

CIN 7:15A/7:41A

CHI 4:05P

That kinda works, except you could connect to the Capitol Limited at PGH. Maybe get the Cap to go thru PGH and HAR and the Cardinal to go back down thru HFY to WAS. Or not, who knows.

Wanna hear an outlandish proposal? Route it via the old Hilltopper/Mountaineer route. It went from Catlettsburg KY through Williamson WV, Welch WV, Bluefield WV then to Roanoke VA. Now I would make it go on the route through Lynchburg VA, Charlottesville VA, and onwards.

It took Amtrak 15:45 hours to complete CAT-WAS. Assuming it doesn't stop at HUN (only AKY) then here would be a schedule:

CHI 9:45A

IND 3:50P/3:59P

CIN 7:17P/7:27P

AKY 10:35P

CVS 11:11A/11:20A

WAS 2:20P

NYP 5:59P

NYP 11:15A

WAS 3:30P

CVS 6:13/6:22P

AKY 7:15A

CIN 10:32A/10:42A

IND 2:16P/3:01P

CHI 7:06P

Look how LOL this schedule is! Pretty slow right? Literally around 32 hours to go from CHI to NYP!

I did this schedule just for fun, the above schedule is much better, but the turn schedule is no different


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I had tried the CIN-Columbus-PGH routing before although that was with the Cardinal's "normal" start and end times. I used All Aboard Ohio's proposed schedules/stops between CIN and Columbus and between Columbus and PGH. CIN was still overnight (they were 12:30/12:46am and 4:17/4:35am). The Columbus times were actually good (9:35/9:50pm west and 7:35/7:40am east). Dayton was also included in the proposal. I'll think about a shift to benefit Cincinnati. It might be better to leave Columbus in the graveyard shift. On one hand, you don't want to introduce new service to a market overnight. On the other, those same markets might be so happy to have a train that they would probably take anything. I think it would probably be best that western PA/HAR be in the graveyard shift and the train arrives in PGH from CHI right around midnight and leaves PGH for CHI first thing in the morning.

As for the Hilltopper/Mountaineer: A 32 hour detour? To serve who? No thanks.

Buckeye Limited December 2015 via Cincinnati and Dayton.pdf


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## ParanoidAndroid

Yes, going via Columbus and PGH is the most realistic way to do this. I'm assuming the CHI to CIN schedule should be the sameish. If we do PGH midnight/morning, then Chicago times are messed up (just inconvenient).

CHI 815A

IND 220P/229P

CIN 547P/557P

Columbus OH 905P

PGH 155A

HAR 740A

PHL 930A

NYP 1130A

Amtrak can probably do this turn

NYP 700P

PHL 900P

HAR 1050P

PGH 430A

Columbus OH 910A

CIN 1215P/1241P

IND 415P/500P

CHI 905P

Maybe the CHI arrival time is a bit too late, if so, the schedule can be shifted back half an hour or an hour or so.

And I dislike CSX for abandoning the Shenandoah route track. If they didn't, then it would be so much easier to reschedule the Cardinal and still provide service on the current route.


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## ParanoidAndroid

I still like the idea of a three times a week (preferably daily, but the Buckingham Branch can't do that) Mountain State between WAS and HUN.

I think the current Cardinal schedules are good enough for that.

I misunderstood the "Parkersburg Branch" being abandoned; there's another line to Clarksburg that's still in operation, called that "Short Line" sub to Clarksburg WV. Then that would transition to the "Bridgeport" sub to Grafton WV, then on the "Mountain" sub to Cumberland MD. From there, the train could follow the current Cap Limited route to WAS.

Earlier schedules, projected ridership (probably low), track conditions are unknown at the moment.

But this is not a Cardinal extension thread anymore. Because of the BBRR, it is now a Cardinal demise mulling-over thread. If we really hate the BBRR (not personally, they're probably nice people), and you think the Pocahontas/Mountaineer route is bad, then Amtrak could just do CHI-IND-CIN, then split the train to HUN, name that the Cardinal, other split to PGH/NYP, name that the Buckeye not-so-Limited and be done with it. Other, faster connections can be done with your Ohio State Limited, Liberty Limited, Capitol Limited, Lake Shore Limited . . . wait nothing isn't limited around here . . .

Anyway, that's my opinion now. Unless there's still something magical and charming about the current Cardinal that everyone loves or something.

Read down Read up

*50* *Cardinal 51 Cardinal*

CHI 8:15A 9:05P

IND 2:20P/2:29P 4:15P/5:00P

CIN 5:47P 12:41P

*Thru cars 750 Buckeye State Thru cars 751 Buckeye State*

CIN 6:10P 12:15P

Columbus OH 9:15P 9:10A

PGH 2:05A 4:30A

HAR 7:50A 10:50P

PHL 9:40A 9:00P

NYP 11:40A 7:00P

*Thru cars 50 Cardinal Thru cars 51 Cardinal* (I like to save the original, lower numbers for the original route  )

CIN 5:57P 12:31P

HUN 9:39P 8:51A

This overnight at HUN to/from 950/951 is why I recommended the Hilltopper route, as it still keeps the purpose and feel of the Cardinal, and avoids the BBRR. If I can find Huntington WV - Parkersburg WV - Clarksburg WV - Cumberland MD - Washington DC schedules that are faster than this and still usable, the train would go on those tracks, not these. This is all assuming that the Cardinal would go through West Virginia, unlike stated above.

*Unlikely 50** Cardinal Unlikely 51 Cardinal*

(HUN 9:46P) (HUN 8:44A)

(CVS 10:50A/10:59A) (CVS 7:13P/7:22P)

(WAS 1:59P) (WAS 4:30P)

(NYP 5:38P)  (NYP 12:15P)

Accidental padding included on #50 from CVS to WAS 

*950* *Mountain State *SuWeFr * 951 Mountain State *SuWeFr

HUN 7:46A 10:14P

HIN 11:04A 6:36P

CLF 1:14P 4:43P

CVS 3:40P/3:49P 2:13P/2:22P

CLP 5:05P 12:55P

WAS 6:49P 11:30A

NYP 10:28P 7:15A

Buckingham Branch should still be happy, everything was just shifted 30 minutes later in the day (12:55pm not 12:25pm, 1:14pm not 12:44pm, and so on).

Thanks for reading!


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## Seaboard92

Now forgive me if I haven't been around here as often. But with the coal traffic majorly decreasing. Maybe the BB could do a daily train


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## ParanoidAndroid

Well, now you tell me. I shall go look it up when I have the time.


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## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Now forgive me if I haven't been around here as often. But with the coal traffic majorly decreasing. Maybe the BB could do a daily train


I am sure they will be happy to do so after they have extracted the appropriate number of greenbacks from the public coffers.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now forgive me if I haven't been around here as often. But with the coal traffic majorly decreasing. Maybe the BB could do a daily train
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure they will be happy to do so after they have extracted the appropriate number of greenbacks from the public coffers.
Click to expand...

I'd rather use those greenbacks to negotiate with NS for a PHL-CHI train or with someone else for a train to give Ohio better service or introduce service to Louisville/Nashville, Phoenix, whatever.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I'm going to ask for clarification here.

Amtrak in its timetable list the Buckingham Branch portion as Culpepper to Clifton Forge, including Charlottesville. Well the Crescent as well as other trains to Charlottesville also runs between Culpepper to Charlottesville but they list Alexandria-Lynchburg-New Orleans as Norfolk Southern. Do the Crescent and Cardinal use different tracks between Culpepper and Charlottesville or do the other Virginia trains also use Buckingham Branch but Buckingham Branch is OK with those trains running? I'm guessing the real problems on BB is west of Charlottesville.

According to Wikipedia, Buckingham Branch is a Class III short line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckingham_Branch_Railroad

I'm seeing most of the other LD's predominantly if not entirely on Amtrak, lines owned by other transportation agencies like MBTA or Metra, or NS, CSX, or other major freight lines. Do any other LD's run at all on short lines or tracks in as poor conditions as BB?


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## afigg

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'm going to ask for clarification here.
> 
> Amtrak in its timetable list the Buckingham Branch portion as Culpepper to Clifton Forge, including Charlottesville. Well the Crescent as well as other trains to Charlottesville also runs between Culpepper to Charlottesville but they list Alexandria-Lynchburg-New Orleans as Norfolk Southern. Do the Crescent and Cardinal use different tracks between Culpepper and Charlottesville or do the other Virginia trains also use Buckingham Branch but Buckingham Branch is OK with those trains running? I'm guessing the real problems on BB is west of Charlottesville.


Look at the system map for Buckingham Branch Railroad (BBRR website link). The Cardinal diverges from the NS tracks at Orange VA and runs on the BBRR from Orange to Gordonsville to Charlottesville to Clifton Forge. The Crescent and Virginia Regionals stay on the NS tracks (which are shown on the map) through Charlottesville and cross the BB line at tjhe Charlottesville station.

As for the track conditions, Virginia has been funding 70% of the cost for a series of track maintenance and signal modernization projects for the BB lines. Given the wide range of track conditions that Amtrak operates over, BBRR is probably not the worse track segment for the LD trains. The BBRR is the only Class 3 railroad that Amtrak runs over, IIRC. But that has little to do with the quality of the tracks, just the size of the Railroad operations.


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## jis

Actually annual revenue of the railroad, so yeah, in some sense size. They actually keep adjusting the revenue thresholds to make sure that the railroads that they want to be Class 2 remain Class 2 and do not inadvertently become Class 1 or Class 3!


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## ParanoidAndroid

Yep. Crescent and Regionals go on the wider NS track to Lynchburg and the Cardinal goes on the eastern track on the BBRR, then crosses over the NS at CVS amtrak to go to Clifton Forge VA. Unfortunately, there's no connecting track between the NS and BBRR at Charlottesville.


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## jis

maxbuskirk said:


> Yep. Crescent and Regionals go on the wider NS track to Lynchburg and the Cardinal goes on the eastern track on the BBRR, then crosses over the NS at CVS amtrak to go to Clifton Forge VA. Unfortunately, there's no connecting track between the NS and BBRR at Charlottesville.


There is, but in the wrong quadrant. This has been discussed to death a couple of times before in AU. An appropriate search might yield the old threads for those sufficiently interested to dig them out. I am not.


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## ParanoidAndroid

Well you could back into the connecting track then NS the rest of the way to WAS.

I don't know how helpful that would be to Amtrak, though.


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## west point

The connecting track in the SE quadrant has several problems. Not having been there in years the connection goes into a small 3 track yard. It enters the southern most BBrRR yard track and last time there Cardinal would have to back over 1 mile to reach the northernmost main line going toward the west.

The worse problem though is all these yard tracks including the connecting track is excepted track . That is unable to allow passenger carrying trains.

Of course that may have changed.


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## ParanoidAndroid

Wow . . . well, I guess Amtrak can't do that, then!

Everyone, any criticism for the Mountain State please?

Here are the sidings usable between Clifton Forge VA and Orange VA:


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## Seaboard92

Doesn't one of the Vermont trains run on a shortline as well I want to say Vermont Rail System. As far as the Cardinal I could see it going daily one day especially with coal traffic declining like it is. But I still think the best way to serve CIN would be the Ohio State Limited. Day train for the CLE-CIN segments and night for the Empire Corridor.


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## ParanoidAndroid

If coal traffic declines so much that Amtrak can reschedule the Cardinal back to the 1970s and 1980s schedules, then that would be great. OSL would still work bunches better though.

The CHI-IND-CIN-NYP "Buckeye State" should still go by Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

You would think it would be easier to serve CIN but it really isn't. These are "possible" routes from CIN to NYP.

Current Cardinal route:

CIN to WAS (603 miles) - 3:27am 6:19pm 14 hr, 52 min
WAS to PHL (134 miles) - 6:19pm 8:26pm 2 hr, 7 min
PHL to NYP (91 miles) - 8:26pm 9:58pm 1 hr, 32 min

Total: 828 miles - 3:27am 9:58pm 18 hr, 31 min

Using AAO's proposed schedules: http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdffor routes that aren't currently run,

To NYP via PGH/PHL (Pennsylvanian times):

CIN to COL (125 miles) - 5:05pm 8:05pm 3 hr
COL to PGH (218 miles) - 11:40pm 5:30am 5 hr, 50 min
PGH to PHL (353 miles) - 7:30am 2:55pm 7 hr, 25 min
PHL to NYP (91 miles) - 3:25pm 4:50pm 1 hr, 25 min

Total without breaks (787 miles): 17 hr, 40 min

AAO scheduled a 5 min gap for its northbound CIN-CLE path via Columbus. They proposed CHI-Columbus-PGH via Ft. Wayne. The gap in Columbus is 10 min. The eastbound CL has a 15 min gap at PGH. Adding those you get 30 extra min via PGH/PHL (the gaps in HAR and PHL are already included in the Pennsylvanian schedule).



Rough estimate of total time: 18 hr, 10 min

To NYP via CLE/BUF/ALB (LSL times):

CIN to CLE (260 miles) 5:05pm 10:50pm 5 hr, 45 min
CLE to NYP (618 miles) 5:50am 6:23pm 12 hr, 33 min

Total without breaks (878 miles) 18 hr, 8 min

AAO's proposal CIN-NYP via CLE/BUF with breaks: 5:05pm 12:27pm 19 hr, 22 min (5 min gap in Columbus, 1 hr, 9 min layover in CLE due to proposed connection with LSL)

In terms of mileage, going through the Keystone route is the shortest (787 mi) with going through WV/VA second (828 mi) and via the Empire route (878 mi) the longest. In terms of time, the differences are less than an hour apart so negligible for a roughly 18-19 hr trip.

Add in CHI to CIN (319 miles): 5:45pm 3:17am 9 hr, 32 min (9 min gap in Indianapolis) and the trip is about 28 hrs CHI to NYP no matter which route you choose. By contrast, CHI-WAS via CL is 780 miles, 6:40pm to 1:05pm (17:25) while CHI-NYP via BUF/ALB is 959 miles, 9:30pm-6:23pm (19:53). CHI to CLE via the LSL is 341 miles, 9:30pm-5:35am (7:05 including a 30 min gap in TOL).

AAO's CHI-PGH via Columbus: 519 miles, 4:55pm to 5:30am (11:35). Add the Pennsylvanian times PGH-NYP (444 mi, 8:50) and you get without a break in PGH 963 mi (20:25). Add 15 min to PGH and it's 20:40.

CL CHI-PGH via CLE: 481 miles, 6:40pm to 5:05am (9:25). Add the Pennsylvanian times PGH-NYP (444 mi, 8:50) and you get without a break in PGH 925 mi (18:15). Add 15 min to PGH and it's 18:45.

Ironically going through CIN-PGH-PHL-COL would be the shortest distance (787 miles) but the longest time by about eight hours over via COL despite being 152 miles shorter.

So it's hard to serve CIN on a CHI-NEC train.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Doesn't one of the Vermont trains run on a shortline as well I want to say Vermont Rail System.


New England Central Railroad, a subsidiary of Genesee and Wyoming Inc.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Right, forgot about breaks.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

CHI 745A

IND 150P/159P

CIN 517P/545P

COL 845P/855P

PGH 245A/300A

HAR 825A/835A

PHL 1025A/1055A

NYP 1220P

NYP 722P

PHL 845P/912P

HAR 1056P/1106P

PGH 435A/450A

COL 1040A/1050A

CIN 150P/211P

IND 545P/555P

CHI 1000P

Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think

Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.


----------



## afigg

maxbuskirk said:


> CHI 815A
> 
> ...
> 
> NYP 1250P
> 
> NYP 807P
> 
> ...
> 
> CHI 1100P
> 
> Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think.


I know these are imaginary schedules, but your CHI times completely prevent any connections to other Amtrak trains. Not just the western LD trains, but also the Chicago hub corridor services. If someone lives in Springfield, IL, how are they supposed to connect to your train with a 8:15 AM departure? 8:15 AM doesn't even work for the Hiawatha which has the 1st CHI arrival at 7:57 AM. Got to have at least a 60 to 90 minute pad for a connection. There is a reason the LD trains depart CHI in the afternoon and evening.

The 11 PM arrival doesn't allow for connections to anything besides the Chicago L unless there are very late Metra trains departing Union Station after 11:30 PM or midnight. Of course, as an LD train, arriving at CHI 2 or 3 hours late will occur often enough for people to be arriving in the wee hours of the night.


----------



## Seaboard92

My only concern on the ex PRR line Columbus-PIT is that it's a regional railroad so I'm not sure on how the track is. I'm still advocating for the three c and Empire route. The Empire Route could easily support the second long distance train. And the Three C route gets one train already from the national network. Then Ohio only needs to put one train in to have a two train a day corridor. Maybe a third so only two trainsets. While the national network is also two trainsets.


----------



## jis

maxbuskirk said:


> Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think
> 
> Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.


Back then it was running on an allegedly first class railroad. Now it will be running on a set of tracks that are patched together by short lines. Part of the original route simply does not exist anymore. So I will be surprised if 5:50 is not too optimistic in reality today.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, if you want connections at Chicago (which is a very good thing to do), Indianapolis will have to be sacrificed and put in overnight. There's no other way I know of doing this, while still serving Cincinnati


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

And it will take 2 nights to do it.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

What's the latest realistic time in the day to leave Chicago?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> CHI 745A
> 
> IND 150P/159P
> 
> CIN 517P/545P
> 
> COL 845P/855P
> 
> PGH 245A/300A
> 
> HAR 825A/835A
> 
> PHL 1025A/1055A
> 
> NYP 1220P
> 
> NYP 722P
> 
> PHL 845P/912P
> 
> HAR 1056P/1106P
> 
> PGH 435A/450A
> 
> COL 1040A/1050A
> 
> CIN 150P/211P
> 
> IND 545P/555P
> 
> CHI 1000P
> 
> Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think
> 
> Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.


How about a 3 hr shift back for the eastbound (CHI 10:45am, NYP 3:20pm) and a 5 hr shift forward for the westbound (NYP 2:22pm, CHI 5:00pm)? That will allow for at least some connectivity in CHI and make the PGH times much better (5:45P/6:00A east and 11:35P/11:40P west). Columbus would get close to graveyard shift times as well (11:45P/11:55P east and 5:40A/5:50A west). The CIN times would be 8:17P/8:45P east and 8:50A/9:11A west). Of course this requires a fourth set instead of just three but I agree the early departure/late arrival times out of CHI would be horrible for transfer business.

My idea of graveyard shift between PGH and PHL won't work for this train since to arrive in PGH before midnight the train would have to leave CHI at 4:45am and that won't happen. When I did the schedule to be similar to the Cardinal, leaving CHI at 6:45pm got the train into NYP at 10:58pm so leaving any later from CHI would put the train into NYP in the graveyard shift. With a run time approximately as long as the current Cardinal, you don't have many realistic options.

Of course you'd also need decent tracks between Columbus and PGH and if they require short lines it won't be any better situation than Buckingham Branch.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> My only concern on the ex PRR line Columbus-PIT is that it's a regional railroad so I'm not sure on how the track is. I'm still advocating for the three c and Empire route. The Empire Route could easily support the second long distance train. And the Three C route gets one train already from the national network. Then Ohio only needs to put one train in to have a two train a day corridor. Maybe a third so only two trainsets. While the national network is also two trainsets.


Seaboard92, way back near the beginning of this thread, I proposed a two new train proposal: one CHI-NYP via Michigan and the Keystone route which served TOL and CLE at non graveyard shift hours and traveled between PGH and PHL during the graveyard shift and one CIN-NYP via 3-C. A passenger from south of CLE could go right through to/from NYP via the Empire route or transfer in CLE to the other new train if they wanted to go to PGH/PHL. I had another proposal where the new train took over the CL's slot and the CL was the train that served Ohio but I have many doubts about that scenario. The second train (OSL) would not serve CHI and IND, it would terminate in CIN.

One idea I also thought of was to extend the train south to Louisville and Nashville (call it the Music City Limited?). With my current schedules, the train would arrive in CIN at 6pm and leave CIN at 2pm. The trains would then not reach Nashville until the middle of the night and have to leave in the graveyard shift to serve CIN by 2pm.

I had a runtime eastbound of 19:27 so a NYP-Nashville train via 3-C would easily be over 24 hours. Can you see a realistic schedule for this train to prevent Nashville, Louisville, or any of the 3C cities from being in the graveyard shift (upstate NY in the graveyard shift is fine)? Assume no transfers to any other trains.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

I shall look at those schedules when I have access to them.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Should the train go the LSL route or the Keystone route? As in go up to Cleveland then south to PGH or LSL?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

What i was thinking. . . the train could depart Chicago really really late (like midnight) and get into NYP really early in the morning, so i was asking how late the train could depart Chicago and still be realistic.

Indianapolis would be overnight, but connectivity in Chicago would be *great*


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

*350** Buckeye State 351 Buckeye State*

CHI 1145P 600A
IND 550A/615A 110A/155A
CIN 943A/1015A 905P/936P
COL 115P/130P 550P/605P
CLE 430P/500P 220P/250P
BUF 850P/915P 1005A/1035A
ALB 300A 420A

*Thru cars 450** Buckeye State Thru cars 451 Buckeye State*

(ALB 330A) (ALB 350A)

(BOS 830A) (BOS 1050P)

*Thru cars 350** Buckeye State Thru cars 351 Buckeye State*

ALB 345A ALB 250A
NYP 615A NYP 1150P

By extending break times at major stations.

*950** Ohio River 951 Ohio River*

CIN 1027A 901P

HUN 209P 521P

*50** Cardinal 51 Cardinal*

HUN 746A 1014P

CVS 340/349P 213P/222P

WAS 649P 1130A

NYP 1028P 715A

How about these? Ohio River and Cardinal schedules matter less than the Buckeye State, I just put them there to keep some kind of service on the map


----------



## neroden

maxbuskirk said:


> Here are the sidings usable between Clifton Forge VA and Orange VA:


Hmm. So, without knowing the actual scheduling, this would be my guess at infrastructure priorities:

(1) Powered, dispatcher-controlled sidings if any are hand thrown

(2) Connection at Charlottesville so that the Cardinal can use the NS line east of there (also makes train faster)

(3) Siding halfway between Clifton Forge and the first siding east of there

(4) Siding halfway between Staunton and the next siding west of there

I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.


Then what is?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what is?
Click to expand...

Good point. I'll take a look at the older schedules again.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

As expected, before 1984, the Cardinal ran in different times of day on the BBRR. Unless CSX removed sidings since then, there's no reason they couldn't handle the Cardinals at different times of day.


----------



## jis

Unfortunately CSX has removed a lot since 1984, including the entire route between Petersburg and Raleigh via Henderson, at least between Norlina and Petersburg, leaving the rest as a slow secondary. Who knows what they managed to remove or let rot away when they decided to essentially downgrade what is BBRR today?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Max, can you post maps of the tracks between Cincinnati and Cleveland and between Columbus and Pittsburgh?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok. If I have time, I guess I could list the sidings if they're online.


----------



## afigg

maxbuskirk said:


> As expected, before 1984, the Cardinal ran in different times of day on the BBRR. Unless CSX removed sidings since then, there's no reason they couldn't handle the Cardinals at different times of day.


How long were the typical freight trains that operated over what is now the BBRR line in the early 1980s? The issue is likely not that sidings were removed or shortened, but that the freight trains got longer than the sidings on the line. The freight railroads have been modernizing their main and more active lines by extending sidings to 10,000 feet or more to accommodate ever longer trains. But the single track secondary line may not get upgraded. Extending the sidings may be one of the bigger cost items that a freight railroad will want to get paid for before agreeing to run passenger service or increased frequencies over a route. That likely goes for many of the proposed fantasy routes discussed in this thread. Just because passenger trains ran on the route 30, 40, 50 years ago, doesn't mean that a passenger train can run on it now w/o paying for significant upgrades first.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well. . . make more longer sidings then? Will that cost billions of dollars?

You would think, if they have long coal trains, they would upgrade the line. . .

And what do you think of my schedule? I think it serves all the cities (except Indy of course) at fairly reasonable times. Even so, Indy is 615A going eastbound (not too bad, later than the current 851 departure time), and 110A arrival westbound (that's a bit late, but not absolutely unbearably late IMO). Even if we did a CHI-IND-CIN day train, passengers would still need to go overnight in CIN on their own money to continue. I think a regular Hoosier State is good enough for this, maybe adjusting the schedule *slightly*.


----------



## royalc

I agree with districtRich, leave the Capitol Limited Schedule alone. We board the train in Alliance Ohio at 1:39 a.m. Is this an inconvenient time? A little, but we board the train, go right to sleep, wake up refreshed, have breakfast and are ready for whatever we want to do in Chicago and then can board any western bound train with no worry of a missed connection.

Somewhere along the line, someone will have to board the train during the night. If we in Ohio are the ones, so be it since the end arrivals are better for connections.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Yes! I tried to get Indy and Cincy at better times, but really! I didn't like missed west-coast connections. So I made a schedules which completely abandoned the connections. I took it too far. I got tired of worrying about Indianapolis, so I made my final schedule. I think it incorporates all the stations nicely, all except Albany (which can easily transfer to NYP). The only problem is it *technically* takes 2 nights to do it, but you depart sooo late and arrive sooo early, that I think it's worth it.

110A Arrival and 155A departure isn't that bad. For Cincy, a previous 317A arrival and 327A departure is bad, that's REALLY graveyard shift. 110A and 155A is baddish, but I think it's good enough. I await others' opinions.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

royalc said:


> I agree with districtRich, leave the Capitol Limited Schedule alone. We board the train in Alliance Ohio at 1:39 a.m. Is this an inconvenient time? A little, but we board the train, go right to sleep, wake up refreshed, have breakfast and are ready for whatever we want to do in Chicago and then can board any western bound train with no worry of a missed connection.
> 
> Somewhere along the line, someone will have to board the train during the night. If we in Ohio are the ones, so be it since the end arrivals are better for connections.


My proposal actually had my new Liberty Limited leave Alliance at 12:39am so that would be the train for you to make it to CHI by the morning (an hour earlier). Essentially for Ohio, the Liberty would replace the Capitol and the Capitol would then arrive in Ohio at better times and allow better southern transfers to/from WAS.

All Aboard Ohio suggested a route between PGH and CLE via Youngstown and Ravenna-Kent. Is that closer to Massillon than Alliance or farther away?

I feel if I had to choose I would keep the Capitol at the same times and run the Liberty Limited with the Ohio friendly schedule rather than make the CL the "Ohio train" and the LL the "transfer train". It then puts the two CHI-NYP trains on opposite schedules. The one benefit to shifting the Capitol would be that if I treat the Liberty Limited as an extension of the Pennsylvanian then Amtrak would only need to add the PGH-CHI legs as opposed to a whole new NYP-CHI train (although that would be a 2nd train between NYP-PGH so there is some gain there).


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> Yes! I tried to get Indy and Cincy at better times, but really! I didn't like missed west-coast connections. So I made a schedules which completely abandoned the connections. I took it too far. I got tired of worrying about Indianapolis, so I made my final schedule. I think it incorporates all the stations nicely, all except Albany (which can easily transfer to NYP). The only problem is it *technically* takes 2 nights to do it, but you depart sooo late and arrive sooo early, that I think it's worth it.
> 
> 110A Arrival and 155A departure isn't that bad. For Cincy, a previous 317A arrival and 327A departure is bad, that's REALLY graveyard shift. 110A and 155A is baddish, but I think it's good enough. I await others' opinions.


I would support this schedule from Cincinnati's perspective. If the Hoosier State is kept on the same schedule and made daily, Indy would still have that for travel to CHI and maybe they can negotiate those times. Right now, IND passengers have to leave at 11:59pm and arrive at 5:20am so leaving at 6:15am and arriving at 1:10am seems to be not much worse if traveling east. IND/CIN passengers are trading in WAS/PHL for the rest of Ohio and upstate New York.

You said you extended breaks to get the endpoint times before midnight/after 6am. If we did CHI-CIN-CLE-PGH-PHL-NYP would that eliminate the need to extend breaks and get the same or similar times for NYP-CHI? I do realize that would be a wacky route but in reality almost no one would travel the whole route (similar to the Cardinal).


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

From CHI and CIN

CLE 500P

PGH 815P/830P

HAR 155A/205A

PHL 355A/425A

NYP 550A

NYP 1145P

PHL 115A/130A

HAR 320A/330A

PGH 700A/715A

CLE 1030A

4 hour layover, If this is eliminated, then Chicago arrival is in the graveyard shift.

CLE 250P

CHI 600A

I relied on Albany to delay the westbound train a bunch (90 minutes) with the excuse that the train was waiting for the connecting train 451 from Boston. Otherwise the train would depart NYP past 1230A.

Thanks for reading!


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> From CHI and CIN
> 
> CLE 500P
> 
> PGH 815P/830P
> 
> HAR 155A/205A
> 
> PHL 355A/425A
> 
> NYP 550A
> 
> NYP 1145P
> 
> PHL 115A/130A
> 
> HAR 320A/330A
> 
> PGH 700A/715A
> 
> CLE 1030A
> 
> 4 hour layover, If this is eliminated, then Chicago arrival is in the graveyard shift.
> 
> CLE 250P
> 
> CHI 600A
> 
> I relied on Albany to delay the westbound train a bunch (90 minutes) with the excuse that the train was waiting for the connecting train 451 from Boston. Otherwise the train would depart NYP past 1230A.
> 
> Thanks for reading!


Then I would go with via the Empire route. I don't think a four hour delay is worth arriving/departing PHL in the graveyard shift.

It is sad that to bring a daily train from CIN to the NEC you'd have to go all the way north to CLE. Then again, it would give you 3-C service.

Probably the best solution would be two separate trains serving CIN, one to CHI and one to the NEC. Having one train serving both ways is a minimum 28 hr trip (even longer by Max's schedule which requires padding to serve NYP and CHI outside of the graveyard shift). Maybe they could extend the Hoosier State to CIN as All Aboard Ohio has campaigned for. The problem is there would be no way to have a train serve CIN, IND, and CHI at good times and allow for western transfers.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what is?
Click to expand...

Good question. There's quite a lot of single-tracking on the CSX line throughout West Virginia. Possibilities include:

Between Clifton Forge and Covington;

West of Covington through "Backbone";

Ronceverte through Rockland;

up the Greenbriar River through Alderson all the way to Browning, south of Hinton (this looks like a very long section with no sidings);

Hinton to Meadow Creek in the New River Gorge;

Meadow Creek to Prince in the New River Gorge;

Prince to Thurmond in the New River Gorge;

Thurmond to Sewell in the New River Gorge;

Hawks Nest to Deep Water along the Kanawha River;

Without knowing the schedule of freight trains I can't really say, but my guess would be the Greenbriar River section (the longest), or the section from Covington to Clifton Forge (with nearly all the branch lines funnelled into it).


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good question. There's quite a lot of single-tracking on the CSX line throughout West Virginia. Possibilities include:
> 
> Between Clifton Forge and Covington;
> 
> West of Covington through "Backbone";
> 
> Ronceverte through Rockland;
> 
> up the Greenbriar River through Alderson all the way to Browning, south of Hinton (this looks like a very long section with no sidings);
> 
> Hinton to Meadow Creek in the New River Gorge;
> 
> Meadow Creek to Prince in the New River Gorge;
> 
> Prince to Thurmond in the New River Gorge;
> 
> Thurmond to Sewell in the New River Gorge;
> 
> Hawks Nest to Deep Water along the Kanawha River;
> 
> Without knowing the schedule of freight trains I can't really say, but my guess would be the Greenbriar River section (the longest), or the section from Covington to Clifton Forge (with nearly all the branch lines funnelled into it).
Click to expand...

So the tracks in West Virginia aren't good and Buckingham Branch has its own problems. It's one thing for a NYP-PHL-CHI train to detour that far south but the added trouble of being slow as well? Are the tracks between CIN-Columbus-PGH really that worse compared to WV/Buckingham Branch?


----------



## jis

Yes


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Uhh . . . could you expand on that a little bit please?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

> test


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Good idea. Would you have good west-coast while IND in the graveyard shift, or IND in daylight, and bad connections? There's no compromise, as then CIN would be in the graveyard shift.

Wow. This thing doesn't want to quote. Look at post #114 on this topic please.

Maybe get IND padding even longer, to make it out of the graveyard shift enough (barely). I think an 1145P departure from CHI is as far as I can push it.

50/51 CARDINAL

CHI 1145P

IND 550A/629A

CIN 947A/1007A

HUN 149P (service train at HUN, if at all possible)

HUN 504P

CIN 901P/926P

IND 100A/155A

CHI 600A 2 train sets to do this (daily service)

350/351 BUCKEYE STATE

CIN 1045A

COL 145P/200P

CLE 500P/530P

BUF 920P/945P

ALB 330A

(ALB 400A)

(BOS 900A)

ALB 415A

NYP 730A (padding)

NYP 950P

ALB 1230A

(BOS 745P)

(ALB 1245A)

ALB 115A

BUF 730A/800A

CLE 1150A/1220P

COL 300P/315P

CIN 645P (padding) 3 train sets to do this (daily service)

850/851 (possible) HOOSIER STATE

IND 600A

CHI 1005A

CHI 545P

IND 1150P


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

This is the map of trains in Ohio,

Cincinnati OH - Columbus OH

Columbus OH - Cleveland OH

Columbus OH - Pittsburgh PA

Along with existing routes

Capitol Limited

Lake Shore Limited

Cardinal


----------



## neroden

maxbuskirk said:


> Uhh . . . could you expand on that a little bit please?


The Columbus-Pittsburgh tracks are in appallingly bad shape with very low speed limits. They would practically have to be rebuilt from scratch. (All new rail, all new ties, mostly new ballast.)

If Ohio was throwing big capital money in, that might be fixed, but if you're on a budget...


----------



## andersone

Dear Philly Fan

if you have never heard of the New River Gorge you have no right to discuss the Cardinal at all. I would be like running the Zephyr through Gore Canyon at midnight.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

HAHAHA

But seriously, Cincinnati needs better schedules. I was thinking about a WAS to HUN day train, but you would have to stay overnight in HUN to continue to Chicago. Do you have any other ideas?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Who would want to go to HUN and spend the night, no, who would want to just go there period!


----------



## jis

I find this fixation ion Cincinnati rather curious myself. :-/


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

So Cincinnati shouldn't matter that much?

And what about bribing (hyperbole) CSX to making the Cardinal go over the James River subdivision to the NS Valley line? From there, go to Riverton then turn east onto the B line to Manassas, then follow the regular path to NYP. All the track is operating, just the freight railroads might not like an extra 2 trains a day (or three days a week)

I think the James River subdivision is busy, but the NS valley line isn't, just have to check the sidings on there.


----------



## jis

You are welcome to your own conclusions


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> I find this fixation ion Cincinnati rather curious myself. :-/


It is a post about improving schedules in Ohio.

The largest unique market to the Cardinal is Cincinnati (1,748,725 live within 25 miles) if you count the Hoosier State separately. The Cardinal is virtually useless end to end because Chicago and the NEC have the Capitol Limited and/or the Lake Shore Limited. Neither of those trains serve Philadelphia or other NEC cities between NYP and WAS but it quicker to transfer to either the CL or LSL to get to CHI than to take the Cardinal. So then the largest market(s) should be Cincinnati and Indianapolis (1,601,693 within 25 miles). But the Cardinal serves Indy really early in the morning and late at night while it serves Cincinnati during the graveyard shift. So if this train is supposed to be CIN/IND, shouldn't the train be scheduled most to accommodate them? And if this train is not supposed to be for CIN/IND, who is it for?



Bob Dylan said:


> Who would want to go to HUN and spend the night, no, who would want to just go there period!


You could say the same for the entire state of West Virginia.


----------



## Seaboard92

I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.

I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.

So here is my proposal.

Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.

Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.

It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.

Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.

Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.

Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

I agree. [that Cincinnati is important, from Philly's post]

By routing over the Manassas Gap (B-line), the NS Shenandoah Valley Line (Valley Line), and the CSX James River subdivision, then we could reschedule the Cardinal while mostly keeping the current route (sorry Staunton), the only problem being the freight railroads agreeing or not, but that's a problem almost every LD Amtrak train has. I also have to figure out how much time it takes to go on this route, probably longer (speculation).


----------



## Seaboard92

It would be longer. And you miss out on CVS. And that's a major market. So I wouldn't even bother with it. Plus the more operating railroads the more complex operation gets.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> This is the map of trains in Ohio,
> 
> Cincinnati OH - Columbus OH
> 
> Columbus OH - Cleveland OH
> 
> Columbus OH - Pittsburgh PA
> 
> Along with existing routes
> 
> Capitol Limited
> 
> Lake Shore Limited
> 
> Cardinal


Are there any tracks Cincinnati to Pittsburgh bypassing Columbus (preferably going through Dayton)?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.
> 
> I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.
> 
> So here is my proposal.
> 
> Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.
> 
> Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.
> 
> It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.
> 
> Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.
> 
> Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.
> 
> Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train


Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east (not to mention the PHL/NYP times aren't that great either - early morning departures and evening arrivals). I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, SeaBoard92 says that there's less coal trains, so maybe they could do a daily train, or what I'm optimistic for, ok with a schedule change.

Or take the James River subdivision all the way down to Lynchburg VA, then spin the train around at a wye that I found (don't know if it's private or not, etc, track renovations will probably need to be made), stop at the Lynchburg Station, then go north on the NS thru Charlottesville VA to WAS and NYP. The connecting track from the CSX to the NS in Lynchburg seems a bit old in some sections, but it doesn't look abandoned.

On the last picture, the track going to the northeast is NS Piedmont, and the track going northwest is CSX James River.

The only problem is overcrowding on the CSX James River Line, which I read seems to be busy with coal trains, both full and empty.


----------



## Seaboard92

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.
> 
> I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.
> 
> So here is my proposal.
> 
> Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.
> 
> Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.
> 
> It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.
> 
> Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.
> 
> Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.
> 
> Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train
> 
> 
> 
> Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east. I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?
Click to expand...

I know from discussions with Mr. Ellis in the media that he wants to add more trainsets on the Hoosier State if Indiana is willing to play ball. So it could be a good option. Ed has the cars. I feel a daily Cardinal on it's current schedule would double. Coal traffic is on the decline so that will help. I don't think the Buckingham Branch is the problem. I think it's everyone's old friend CSX


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.
> 
> I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.
> 
> So here is my proposal.
> 
> Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.
> 
> Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.
> 
> It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.
> 
> Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.
> 
> Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.
> 
> Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train
> 
> 
> 
> Your Cardinal/Hoosier States look to be the opposite of mine. I want the Cardinal to be on the new schedule and the Hoosier State on the current while you want the Cardinal on the current and a new Hoosier State. It would be better than what we have now but Indy/Cincy still have lousy schedules east. I do realize Buckingham Branch is a pain in the butt when it comes to the Cardinal but if we could shift the Cardinal that would help Indy/Cincy way more. It also keeps the Hoosier State CHI-IND as a single set daily. If Iowa Pacific decides they don't want to go to a two set operation, would the Hoosier State even exist (IP was brought in to help Indiana)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know from discussions with Mr. Ellis in the media that he wants to add more trainsets on the Hoosier State if Indiana is willing to play ball. So it could be a good option. Ed has the cars. I feel a daily Cardinal on it's current schedule would double. Coal traffic is on the decline so that will help. I don't think the Buckingham Branch is the problem. I think it's everyone's old friend CSX
Click to expand...

Of course you have the phrase "if Indiana is willing to play ball".

Any word on whether Ed Ellis/Iowa Pacific has any interest on expanding to CIN or other cities beyond IND (Louisville/Nashville?)

So you feel CSX is more blocking a daily Cardinal than Buckingham Branch? Or are both of them blocking it? At least from the discussions in this thread the conditions of the tracks in both West Virginia and Virginia west of Charlottesville are poor.


----------



## jis

I am sure IP will do nothing that is not subsidized by Indiana or Ohio or someone else (including their own freight ops sometimes, but not a possibility on CSX tracks). As it is they barely break even with the Indiana subsidy or lose a bit of money. They cannot last too long without the subsidy.

On Saratoga and North Creek their passenger operation runs at a loss which is covered by their freight operation profits on the same line. Most of IP's passenger operations are Ed's labor of love, and not necessarily the best business decisions, and we are forever grateful for it.

So if we are waiting for Ed to rescue service to CIN without the participation of Indiana or Ohio, we'd be waiting for a long long time.

Whether Hoosier State will or will not exist without IP's participation is entirely upto InDOT. Hoosier State is their operation. They pay for it and decide who runs it on what schedule and how often, within the constraints of reality of course.


----------



## Seaboard92

So you feel CSX is more blocking a daily Cardinal than Buckingham Branch? Or are both of them blocking it? At least from the discussions in this thread the conditions of the tracks in both West Virginia and Virginia west of Charlottesville are poor.

I feel it is CSX more so. As we know they aren't what you would call pro passenger. And their Cincinnati terminal has tons of trains. But with the coal traffic drying up they might stop being the issue. For instance the once busy line from Richmond to Newport News. Is down to just Amtrak and a local freight. With one or two coal trains a week.


----------



## andersone

You might want to spend a night in Huntington,,, as opposed to sleeping in your car perhaps,,, and you can tell it is summer in West Virginia when the good couch is on the porch, more seriously I think the idea of ending the Cardinal in WAS makes sense,,, If daily, and a fix for the arrival times in Cincy, When I head west I just drive to GBB because I can be home in 6 hrs,, before the Card even leaves Chi and doesn't make a journey dependent on the Card 3x


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, if the Cardinal can be rescheduled on the current route without a problem, then here we go

WAS 745A

CLP 910A

CVS 1028A/1037A

CLF 1258P

HIN 251P

HUN 629P/636P

CIN 1016P

CIN 742A

HUN 1124A/1131A

HIN 249P

CLF 459P

CVS 625P/634P

CLP 850P

WAS 1034P

CIN - Cincinnati OH

HUN - Huntington WV

HIN - Hinton WV

CLF - Clifton Forge VA

CVS - Charlottesville VA

CLP - Culpeper VA

WAS - Washington DC


----------



## jis

I am not sure that a schedule into and out of Washington that virtually rules out any connecting traffic is something that would be acceptable just for the sake of CIN.


----------



## neroden

The Cardinal traffic flow contains a lot of "east end" traffic. Honestly I wouldn't mess with the east end schedule much, unless you can cut time out from it.


----------



## Seaboard92

Most of the major traffic is on the east end. Now if you can get the speeds improved. Which would take million it's doable.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

That's why I prefer turning the train at HUN. If so,

WAS 900A

CLP 1025A

CVS 1143A/1152A

CLF 213P

HIN 406P

HUN 744P

HUN 816A

HIN 1134A

CLF 144P

CVS 410P/419P

CLP 535P

WAS 719P

Delay the last MARC to Martinsburg WV to 7:45pm or 8:00pm?

If New York should be served,

NYP 715A

WAS 1130A

thru stops

HUN 1014P

HUN 746A

thru stops

WAS 649P

NYP 1028P

(Is 10:28pm really worse compared to 9:58pm for connections?)


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> The Cardinal traffic flow contains a lot of "east end" traffic. Honestly I wouldn't mess with the east end schedule much, unless you can cut time out from it.





Seaboard92 said:


> Most of the major traffic is on the east end. Now if you can get the speeds improved. Which would take million it's doable.


http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf

New York had 13,651 passengers which is just a little more than CIN. Only 6,590 passengers on the Cardinal went through PHL. If you're in NYP/PHL/New Jersey, why would you use the Cardinal? The LSL and/or CL can get you to CHI much faster. That leaves CIN/IND where the train arrives/leaves at inconvenient times. Hardly anyone from NYP/PHL would care if the Cardinal didn't serve their cities. It's more for CIN/IND passengers coming to NYP/PHL and if the train leaves CIN/IND at bad times they won't want to come (and who would want to travel to CIN from the east if they arrive at 1:36am?



jis said:


> I am not sure that a schedule into and out of Washington that virtually rules out any connecting traffic is something that would be acceptable just for the sake of CIN.


How many trains can you transfer to out of WAS arriving at 6:19pm? Not the Crescent (6:30pm). Maybe the SM (7:25pm). But would anyone here count on Amtrak to make the connection to the SM? No way Amtrak would guarantee it. And right now the train gets into PHL/NYP late although not as late as Max suggests so the question is whether to arrive late in WAS or arrive late in NYP. Of course you could use my schedule and arrive in both NYP and WAS at reasonable times.



maxbuskirk said:


> Well, if the Cardinal can be rescheduled on the current route without a problem, then here we go
> 
> WAS 745A
> 
> CLP 910A
> 
> CVS 1028A/1037A
> 
> CLF 1258P
> 
> HIN 251P
> 
> HUN 629P/636P
> 
> CIN 1016P
> 
> CIN 742A
> 
> HUN 1124A/1131A
> 
> HIN 249P
> 
> CLF 459P
> 
> CVS 625P/634P
> 
> CLP 850P
> 
> WAS 1034P


That does put both endpoints at reasonable times but it essentially means anyone traveling within the two cities basically has to give up an entire day traveling each way. If the train ran overnight between the two cities, it makes the trip more desirable. And there's hardly any significant traffic in between (Charlottesville but they have other trains to/from WAS and how many people from Charlottesville want to go to Cincinnati (or vice versa))?

To me the only worthwhile Cardinal schedule is leaving CIN before midnight going east and arriving in CIN from the east early in the morning. Anything else puts a major market in the dark ... literally.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Woah! But hey, CIN-NEC passengers can use the Ohio State Limited! (Buckeye State has been shot down already)

I modified it back to HUN-WAS. This was intended to be like the Palmetto, serving people in between, not a 'thru' train, but you could definitely stay the night in HUN and continue on your way to CIN and CHI.

If the Buckingham Branch can take schedule changes and daily service, then much more would be possible for a thru train Cardinal, like your overnight WV schedules, and such.

The OSL should be on your schedule you posted on page 2.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> I modified it back to HUN-WAS. This was intended to be like the Palmetto, serving people in between,


Who's between HUN and WAS?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, WV is gone.

Alright, I'll do some research.

I will add up all the ridership numbers between ALX to HUN and ALX to SAV. I will multiply the ALX to HUN number by 7/3 (3 and 1/3), because the Cardinal runs ALX-HUN (3/7)ths of the week, so I should multiply it by 7/3 to get 1, an expected full week of ridership for every week. I hope that explanation was good enough.

I still expect ALX-SAV to be more.

ALX is Alexandria VA.

HUN 11186

CHW 10038

MNG 614

THN 563

PRC 3406

HIN 8897

ALD 586

WSS 5204

CLF 2432

STA 6823

CVS* 23336

CLP* 2516

MSS* 5136

ALX* 7314

245607 total after multiplying by 7/3

I hope I did this math right

SAV* 23886

YEM* 7458

CHS* 41074

KTR* 7335

FLO* 26002

DIL 9456

FAY* 26795

SSM* 6611

WLN* 26346

RMT* 13154

PTB* 5877

RVR* 45231

ALX* 17066

256291 total

Again, I hope I did the math right

Now, these results are slightly (or lots) inaccurate. The * means that I divided the station boarding/alighting data by the number of Palmettos or Cardinals (per week)/number of total trains at that station (per week). I believe I worded that correctly. This makes the results inaccurate, and gives a slight boost for the Cardinal (the traffic from CVS-ALX is mostly not the Cardinal), and a slight de-boost for the Palmetto (traffic SAV-ALX is a lot Palmetto), not the overnight trains, presumably (I'm guessing here).

Anyway, they're pretty close, but the Palmetto won, probably by a larger margin than what is shown here.

Thanks for reading!


----------



## Seaboard92

I think cutting it at HUN would be a really bad move. Yes it's a town. But it isn't a city and I believe that a train needs two decent sized end points. Let's just face it CIN can't get daytime service east without infrastructure improvements. And lots of them. And for the word you can transfer to the Crescent in CVS and the Meteor in ALX or CVS-RVR bus. So the current cardinal does have connections.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

What about San Luis Obispo CA? Multiple Surfliners originate/terminate there, and the population is about the same as Huntington WV. Both cities ("towns") have motels/hotels.

Can't terminate it in CVS.

So abandon CIN and leave the Cardinal as-is, or accept HUN, which you don't seem to like.

I think Philly will give up on the Cardinal now . . .


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> I think Philly will give up on the Cardinal now . . .


You're (relatively) new here. I gave up on the Cardinal long ago after they canceled the Broadway Limited/Three Rivers route. Since I am from "Philly", it was the best route to get to CHI. To me, the only major markets served by the Cardinal are IND and CIN (CVS has other trains to NYP/WAS). So if you can't serve them at better hours, just get rid of it and bring back the BL.

I think we can all agree the Cardinal in its current form (3 days/week) is ineffective. Some people think the daily move is coming. But Amtrak had mentioned its desire to make the Cardinal daily back in 2010 (around September if I remember correctly). I'm sure Amtrak had thought of making the Cardinal daily long before that. It's been running 3x/week since I believe the 80's. In the meantime, at least one and probably many other routes are put behind the backburner (if they're in Amtrak's minds at all) just to run 2 sets of equipment 1147 miles and 29 hours 3x/week to serve barely over 100,000 passengers when they can run 3-4 sets on a daily route of similar length/time and double that easily. I believe someone else had said the phrase "daily or bust". I think in the next 2-3 years we should say daily or bust to the Cardinal. And even daily, hey CIN you can now board your train at 1:46am/3:17am seven days a week!


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Right. Ohio State Limited.

CHI - CIN "Hoosier State"

and a

CIN - NYP "Ohio State Limited"

Cities along the Cardinal route are just not spaced correctly to serve all the cities at good times and turn the train, unless truncated to WAS, and a connecting train to NYP.

CIN 727P

CVS 710A/719A

WAS 1019A

WAS 700P

CVS 943P/952P

CIN 931A

All I have to do is wholeheartedly accept that the Cardinal is a lucky train to be alive, and it really doesn't work most of the time, much less make the BBRR happy, even with declining coal traffic. I have yet to research coal traffic, and I shall.


----------



## jis

Just for information ... in the 1965 C&O timetable Chicago - Cincinnati was served by a daily Pullman Chair Car train on the following schedule:

Chicago: 4:00pm
Indy: 8:40pm
Cincy: 11:05pm

Cincy: 8:20am
Indy: 10:25am
Chicago: 1:30pm

George Washington provided Washington - Cincinnati service leaving Washington around 4pm and arriving in Cincy at 7:35am.

In the reverse direction it left Cincy at 5:55pm, arriving Washington at 9:00am.

There was an additional train called the Sportsman connecting with the evening train from Chicago, leaving Cincy at 11:30pm arriving Washington at 4:35pm.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

So, overnight train CHI-CIN. Arrive CIN in the morning.

Should this train sit in CIN the whole day, or do the extra few hours, there and back to HUN? Is HUN useless, completely?

Overnight train back CIN-CHI.

OSL depart CIN in the midday, overnight thru NY to arrive NYP in the morning.

OSL depart NYP at night, overnight thru NY to CIN in midday.

If there are enough people NYP-CVS who do want a faster overnight train to CIN, then yes, run a overnight there.

Otherwise it would mean abandon the current route HUN-CVS. Which you could do, but I just . . . irrationally don't like.

It seems there is absolutely no reason to run a daytime train over CIN-CVS.

And WHY is HUN so bad? Maybe terminate it in Ashland KY? That place has a few motels. Who knows.


----------



## neroden

FWIW there's a substantial Cincy-(CVS, WAS, PHL, NYP) market. I also see no reason to run in the daytime from CIN-CVS, apart from the scenery, which is a bad reason.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Is there any other reason for a HUN to WAS day train?


----------



## Palmetto

My head is spinning after reading all this. Oh: are the good folks in Ohio--and the legislators there--on board to improve service? The 3C proposal got shot down in flames real quick, and I've got no reason to believe there's hope for any improved rail transit until the legislative climate changes. I hope this doesn't put too much water on this hot topic.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, assuming Ohio is cooperative, this discussion builds on that. Without that, this discussion is useless.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Oh, and imagine what would happen if Kasich was elected president.  (based on what I've heard)


----------



## Palmetto

Mr. Kasich is quite anti-passenger rail. That's a big problem for improving rail schedules in Ohio, unfortunately. I think he's okay with freight rail, though.


----------



## neroden

Oh, Kasich is a complete nightmare. Openly hostile to passenger rail, among other things. (Also pretty much openly hostile to the right to vote.)


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Palmetto said:


> My head is spinning after reading all this. Oh: are the good folks in Ohio--and the legislators there--on board to improve service? The 3C proposal got shot down in flames real quick, and I've got no reason to believe there's hope for any improved rail transit until the legislative climate changes. I hope this doesn't put too much water on this hot topic.


Well AAO had suggested the 3-C as through cars onto the LSL as a way to get around Ohio funding and the 750 mile rule. They also mentioned S.1626 which sounds like local governments can chip in money. Is Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo, or any other municipality in Ohio willing to contribute to funding trains? I can't answer that.

More recently AAO suggested the daily Cardinal and extended Pennsylvanian via Michigan were cheaper alternatives and more realistic than the other more expensive options.

I think the Cardinal schedule shift is a way to have the train hit larger markets at better hours and improve service without drastically increasing costs. Unfortunately the schedule shift probably isn't practical if the schedule isn't daily because it would require two sets for the Hoosier State. If Amtrak is going to run the Cardinal daily they should run it on my schedule. That change doesn't depend on a new 3-C/OSL schedule and would improve service in CIN without breaking the bank.

Assuming no 3-C, you want service from CIN west to IND-CHI and east to the NEC. I think a single train is just too long but with the right schedule I can live with it. I'm not even sure two separate trains are realistic and a train from just from CIN to WAS (and/or NYP) would have limited ridership. So assume just one train going both ways from CIN and it takes the Cardinal route. We know the schedule now really sucks for CIN. You can't leave CIN heading west before midnight or IND is in the dark. You can't leave CIN heading east in the morning or IND is in the dark. You can't leave CIN in the evening or CHI is in the dark. So the only option eastbound would be leaving CIN at night. If I were in charge and Buckingham Branch refuses the Cardinal shift, I would scrap the whole thing east of CIN (or look for a better re-route which everyone is telling me isn't possible) and just run a day CHI-CIN train using the schedules Max suggested.

As for Huntington, how much traffic do you feel will ride a train between WAS and Huntington? Do you think it would be cost effective? I don't. If WV/VA are willing to pay for it, go ahead. If Amtrak wants to spend my tax money on it, I will complain. I complain now they're spending my tax money on the Cardinal.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, assuming the Buckingham accepts these schedule changes, your schedule would work best, ignoring west coast connections, which in the end, I don't expect make up a lot of the train (just guessing).

Is the IND to STL connection important to you?

Is Huntington in the LD Cardinal sense important to you (enough to depart CHI a couple hours earlier eastbound and a couple hours later westbound?)

If HUN isn't worth it, then depart CHI at 11:45.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> Well, assuming the Buckingham accepts these schedule changes, your schedule would work best, ignoring west coast connections, which in the end, I don't expect make up a lot of the train (just guessing).
> 
> Is the IND to STL connection important to you?
> 
> Is Huntington in the LD Cardinal sense important to you (enough to depart CHI a couple hours earlier eastbound and a couple hours later westbound?)
> 
> If HUN isn't worth it, then depart CHI at 11:45.


I think the IND-STL connection would be worthwhile to make up for losing the Cardinal westbound connections in CHI. Of course that also depends on track conditions, usage agreements, equipment, etc. If we arrive in IND later from the east and leave IND heading east to accommodate HUN, we'd have a harder time getting to/from IND so I would be against it (only 860,447 passengers live within 50 miles of HUN according to NARP, http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf). If we have no chance for the IND-STL connection, I wouldn't be against your changes to accommodate Huntington. I would probably not want to move CVS northbound much earlier than 7am and the CHI departure too much earlier than that. If you propose 2:45pm-6:05pm next day west and 9:45am-1:58pm east I can live with that although CVS at 7:10/7:19am could be pushing it. Do you lose that many connections in CHI if you arrive at 6:05pm as opposed to 4:05pm and/or leave CHI at 9:45am as opposed to 11:45am? If you do, I'd probably want to keep the times I suggested.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

OK. How long do you think IND-STL will take? I think Amtrak did it in 5 hours. I estimated 7 hours.

TXE 7:19A/7:55A

STL 8:30A

IND 4:30P

Cardinal 5:59P

Cardinal 12:00N

IND 1:00P

STL 7:00P

TXE 7:21P/8:00P

It works out, but the trains can't be late, or the connection will fail.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> OK. How long do you think IND-STL will take? I think Amtrak did it in 5 hours. I estimated 7 hours.
> 
> TXE 7:19A/7:55A
> 
> STL 8:30A
> 
> IND 4:30P
> 
> Cardinal 5:59P
> 
> Cardinal 12:00N
> 
> IND 1:00P
> 
> STL 7:00P
> 
> TXE 7:21P/8:00P
> 
> It works out, but the trains can't be late, or the connection will fail.


Your guess on the IND-STL is as good as mine.

The train could leave STL earlier than 8:30am (8:00am?) Also, my Cardinal was scheduled to arrive in IND at 11:20am (depart for CHI at noon) so the cars could leave IND earlier (noon? 12:30pm?). That would give you a little more leeway between the trains.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, OK. I never trusted the Texas Eagle.

STL 815A

IND 415P

IND 1200N

STL 600P


----------



## Seaboard92

Why not ship it onto Kansas City and connect to the SWC. It adds more connections.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well . . .

Cardinal (proposed) 1115A/1200N

IND 1130A

STL 530P . . .

KCY 1110P

Southwest Chief 1011P/1045P

Southwest Chief 743A/815A

KCY 400A

STL 940A

IND 540P

Cardinal (proposed) 550P/559P

That's why, after the Cardinal is rescheduled.

Even with the tightest connections with the Cardinal at IND.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Or if on the current schedule

SWC 743A/815A

KCY 830A

STL 210P/230P

IND 1030P

Cardinal 1150P/1159P

Cardinal 515A/600A

IND 610A

STL 1210P/1230P

KCY 610P

SWC 1011P/1045P

Only westbound you have some time at KCY.

Shows how tight this is. Maybe shift the Card forward and the SWC back?


----------



## jis

I think any attempts to fiddle with the SWC schedule that does not take into account the possibility (possibly impossible) of routing it via Pueblo is a fool's errand. It just ain't gonna happen. Well then again possibly none of this will happen, so I may be whistling in the wind anyways.

BTW, 10:30 - 11:50 seems like plenty of time at IND considering in the opposite direction 5:15 - 6:10 is acceptable Maybe KCY departure can be pushed by 25 or so minutes and even departure from IND can be pushed by 30 mins or so perhaps, and some of it regained on the NEC with 125mph based schedule?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, I thought the Cardinal was going to be rescheduled.

Then it's impossible.

Or make the SWC layover 2 or 3 or 4 hours at KCY.

LAX 245P

ABQ 812A/840A

KCY 413A/745A

CHI 245P

KCY 500A

STL 1040A/1100A

IND 700P

IND 1230P

STL 630P/650P

KCY 1230A

CHI 315P

KCY 1011P/115A

ABQ 625P/715P

LAX 1045A

Cannot turn train to 245P departure

:lol: We need an extra train set or 2.


----------



## jis

As I said ... tinkering with SWC is a recipe for frustration. That includes the proposed tinkering by the Pueblo aficionados. They have a dream but not a practical solution unless they wish to pay for one more consist.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

How many hours would Pueblo add to the schedule? I don't think there would be a need for an extra consist just for that.


----------



## CCC1007

Especially if you have the SWC dropped into commuter rush hour at LA, ABQ, or CHI. That's a deal breaker for all three commuter agencies.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, only ABQ would be changed to commuter times. Everything else is midday or the same as before.


----------



## neroden

OK, to get back to this, I've gotten lost. What were our "best" proposals so far for daily Cardinal scheduling, assuming a separate Hoosier State?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok, here are the schedules.

Proposal 1: Shift Cardinal schedule to overnight WV, make Buckingham Branch accept them, connection to St. Louis MO at Indianapolis IN to the Texas Eagle, make it daily if possible.

Read Down Read Up

*50** Cardinal 51 Cardinal*

CHI 11:45A 4:05P

IND 5:50P 12:00N

STL 8:30A 6:30P

IND 4:30P 12:30P

IND 5:59P 11:15A

CIN 9:17P/9:27P 7:31A/7:41A

HUN 1:09A/1:16A 3:44A/3:51A

CVS 9:10A/9:19A 7:43P/7:52P

WAS 12:19P 5:00P

NYP 3:58P 12:45P

Proposal 2: Truncate Cardinal to HUN or CIN, and allow connection to the proposed Ohio State Limited at CIN (CIN-CLE-BUF-NYP). IND-STL connection could be an extended Missouri River Runner, but that doesn't help past KCY. Truncating at HUN is bad for servicing trains, especially if it's late (a good possibility).

Read Down Read Up

*50 Cardinal 51 Cardinal*

CHI 11:45P 6:05A

IND 5:50A 2:00A

STL 10:00P 7:45A

IND 6:00A 1:45A

IND 6:59A 12:45A

CIN 10:17A/10:27A 9:01P/9:11P

(HUN 2:09P) (HUN 5:21P)

I think those are the only 2 useful, and somewhat realistic ones at the moment.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Don't forget Seaboard92's plan:



Seaboard92 said:


> I'm going to say something a very wise person once told me when I was griping about the times for my town. A long distance train has to pass somewhere in the middle of the night.
> I think we can virtually write off the PGH-Columbus line until Ohio puts money in upgrading it. Which now leaves us several options we can run my proposal which services Cincy better east.
> So here is my proposal.
> Phase I: part 1 make the Cardinal daily which then negates the need for a Hossier State ran by IP.
> Part 2 extend the Hoosier State east to CIN leaving at seven am. It gets to CHI around two-three.
> It solves both problems connections in Chicago and a day train to CIN. And it gives IND a ten am train out. Schedule the return for nine PM into CIN so departing roughly around noon. Two trainsets needed. Plus an additional one or two for more IND-CHI trains.
> Phase Two: instate the Ohio State Limited from CIN-CLE-NYP.
> Now CIN has good times east and west as well as north.
> Philly let me think a bit on the Nashville train


Of course I like my plan the best. It gives CIN good times both eastbound and westbound while Seaboard92's would still require anyone from CIN to/from the east to arrive in the middle of the night (although westbound they could take the new extended Hoosier State).

If I had to do an extended Hoosier State from CIN-CHI and arrive/depart CHI in time for transfers to western trains, it would be either stick CIN in the graveyard shift or IND in the graveyard shift. I'm sure if Indiana DOT has any say, IND is not going to be stuck in the graveyard shift. Plus, CHI-IND right now is the more popular city pair on the Cardinal (a five hour trip as opposed to a nine hour trip). I'm not sure there is any precedent for a train arriving/leaving at the final destination in the graveyard shift so I'm not sure it would work for the train leaving CIN at 1:36am and arrive at 3:17am. That's why I prefer to keep the HS to IND-CIN now. Plus, I think it works better for Iowa Pacific to keep their equipment requirement to one set rather than expand to two. Maybe after CHI-IND works for a while, then maybe Iowa Pacific then would want to expand either to CIN and/or to a 2nd Hoosier State CHI-IND. If we do go CHI-IND-CIN, I'd use Max's 50 schedule but for 51 leave CIN at 12:11am and arrive in CHI at 9:05am (so IND can be 5:05am rather than 2:05am and the train arrives at a better time than 6:05am in CHI).


----------



## Seaboard92

The one part you missed Philly on my proposal was the OSL which leaves at a decent time for NY from CIN and CLE


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

How about the hour layover in CLE to wait for the LSL or proposed other train? Is it worth ruining LSL to western train connections for the sake of Ohio, or is that another train that isn't running yet? If it's one that's not running, then that's OK. A CHI-CLE in the day and empire corridor at night, train is good, just I want to leave the LSL alone.

On your schedule, and the current LSL schedule CHI-CLE:

CHI 1100A

CLE 720P

(CIN 100P)

(CLE 645P)

CLE 759P

NYP 757A

NYP 930P

CLE 917A

(CLE 1030A)

(CIN 415P)

CLE 945A

CHI 345P BARELY MISSES THE BALL!! (SWC departs at 3:15pm, CZ at 2:00pm, EB at 2:15pm, TXE at 1:45P)

OHHHHH!! INTERCEPTION!!!!! and . . . . . . TOUCHDOWN FOR THE COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Anyway, I think CIN and CLE already have decent times, only BUF is the graveyard shift, kind of. Maybe, do a "Lake Erie" train, day train through there. Maybe extend one of the Empire corridor trains?

NYP 840A

BUF 455P/459P

CLE 827P

CLE 750A

BUF 1046A/1051A

NYP 823P

Eh, who knows. This one's a dream.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

The first "day train" through CLE/TOL should be my new Liberty Limited CHI-PGH-PHL-NYP via Michigan. That would give you the CHI-PHL train, the Michigan-NEC train, and daytime service for CLE/TOL.

Recapping, you have the CL and LSL as "transfer" trains and the LL and Cardinal as "Ohio" trains. All three of CLE, TOL, and CIN will have one train during day hours. NYP, PHL, and WAS will each have at least one daily to CHI. NYP will have two dailies, one that allows for transfers and one that doesn't but allows for a later departure from NYP and an earlier arrival in NYP. The LL also would allow same day transfers from CHI, CLE, and TOL to/from the Carolinian (tight slightly less than an hour connection going south but plenty of time returning) or Silver Star in addition to the Crescent and Silver Meteor.

Once the Liberty Limited starts and the Cardinal goes daily/shifts to better serve IND and CIN, then we can get the ball moving on a separate Ohio State Limited/ Music City Limited (Nashville-NYP via 3-C/Empire Route). You might want to start with through cars CIN-CLE hooking up with the Liberty Limited in CLE. Then maybe you could go with a separate train and extend it either north to the Empire Route and/or south to Louisville/Nashville. CIN-NYP via CLE/BUF would be longer than 750 miles so it would not require Ohio funding.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Do you want the CL with morning CLE westbound with transfers to CIN, or the Liberty Limited with that?

And wow this is confusing. You put several proposals down, and I don't know what you want now. For clarification (I know this might be annoying, but I want to confirm)

1. Liberty Limited CHI-TOL-DER-CLE-PGH-PHL-NYP.

2. Ohio State Limited NYP-ALB-BUF-CLE-CIN. Possibly extend to LVL-Bowling Green KY-Nashville TN.

3. What happened to the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited? Should we just leave them alone for NEC-CHI overnight passengers with connections to the western trains, or no?

Liberty Limited approximate schedule based on yours.

NYP 900P

PGH 600A/630A

CLE 930A/1000A

CHI 400P

Ohio State Limited

NYP 930P

BUF 600A

CLE 915A/1030A

CIN 415P

Extension

CIN 1000P

LVL 230A/245A

NSH 700A?

CIN 415P/430P

LVL 900P/915P

NSH 130A? I only have 1963 schedules, so I have absolutely NO IDEA of the track conditions. If they are still fast (I've heard rumors that CSX keeps it up) then maybe these could be a lot faster.

Extension 2

CIN 415P/430P

LVL 730P/745P

NSH 1100P but ya know, it's pretty hard to do. Everything is set up for a good day train, but a bad end-of-the-day extension.

And we shall not dive back into the mess of Kentucky and Tennessee trains.


----------



## Palmetto

Just a quick aside. Nobody has a proposal as to where the money is going to come from. Without that, this is fantasy. Fun, but fantasy.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> Do you want the CL with morning CLE westbound with transfers to CIN, or the Liberty Limited with that?


I had proposed two scenarios but I think it's better to keep the CL as is and have the LL be the Ohio train. Otherwise, both "transfer" trains terminate in NYP while WAS would be stuck with both "Ohio" trains (if you consider the Cardinal a WAS train more than a NYP train since it arrives in WAS first).



maxbuskirk said:


> 3. What happened to the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited? Should we just leave them alone for NEC-CHI overnight passengers with connections to the western trains, or no?


For now, I would say keep the CL and LSL as is with maybe minor tweaks but they should remain the two biggest (and once the Cardinal schedule shifts the only two) trains connecting to/from the west.

I think Nate had proposed having the LSL leave earlier eastbound. The PRIIA's suggest a 6pm departure out of CHI for the LSL and a 7:30pm departure out of CHI for the CL. That would allow the train to arrive in PGH one hour later and cut the delay for those transferring to the eastbound Pennsylvanian (anyone coming west of CHI to PA would still have to use the CL/Pennsylvanian combo to avoid an overnight layover in CHI). The problem is you make it tougher/impossible to connect with the southbound Silver Star in WAS (3:05pm) although Amtrak published the northbound SM as the train from Florida to connect at DC. I have a feeling they're probably going to cut the CL/SS connection soon anyway (2 hr leeway in WAS) and most CL/Florida passengers (especially those who want diner car service) probably book the SM anyway for more leeway. The SM gets into ORL only about 3 hrs later and the arrival times in south Florida are for the most part less than an hour later. The LSL would then get into NYP and BOS earlier (NYP before rush hour) but would arrive in BUF before 6am (5:46am) although it would be not as bad as the CL now arrives in PGH (5:05am).

As for westbound, the CL arrives/leaves PGH and the LSL arrives/leaves BUF close to midnight. Maybe move both of them up one hour so the CL/LSL arrive in CHI at 7:45/8:45am. Or move the LSL up two hours so it arrives first (with weather delays more likely maybe it should be scheduled to get into CHI first). I don't believe Amtrak is guaranteeing 92/29 so leaving at 3:05pm rather than 4:05pm probably makes no difference.



Palmetto said:


> Just a quick aside. Nobody has a proposal as to where the money is going to come from. Without that, this is fantasy. Fun, but fantasy.


Unless the PRIIA's are just Amtrak's way of getting the government off their backs, they want a daily Cardinal.They want the CL/Pennsylvanian through cars but AAO thinks having a separate train and routing through Michigan would be better. Once the Viewliner II's come in, they will certainly have enough cars for the daily Cardinal, Liberty Limited, and possibly the Ohio State Limited. It then goes to negotiating track usage (and in the case of the Cardinal, improving the tracks enough).

AAO suggests that just extending the Pennsylvanian to CHI via Michigan keeping the current schedule between NYP and PGH wouldn't be that expensive (after the capital cost it would have a lower estimated annual operating subsidy than the daily Cardinal would, $700K vs $2M). Of course, I am using what amounts to their TR and 3-C extensions which would connect to my new LL rather than the LSL as they proposed (a bad proposal IMHO because the train would arrive/depart CHI too tight for westbound connections). AAO wants to reroute between PGH and CLE via Youngstown and Ravenna/Kent but sticking with Alliance probably drops the capital cost.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/12/04/feds-lend-ohio-hand-to-get-on-the-train-again/

http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf

I'll let Nate look over the financial details.


----------



## Seaboard92

I'm actually opposed to an extension of my Ohio State Limited at least for the first few years for what I think is a good reason.

The schedule I made for it (Philly can you dig it up for me please) calls for just two trainsets. Extending it down any further requires three or four. And it's better to have an initial train start off simple.

On the matter if who pays the dime it's over 750 miles so it could fall under national network. But I would say Ohio could potentially fund it (after Kasisch) and potentially New York State. Which would give them a night train NYP-BUF. For stations it could be a cross between states and towns. And I believe the population on the route is larger then most of the other routes. And two sets of equipment for daily operation isn't horrible.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm actually opposed to an extension of my Ohio State Limited at least for the first few years for what I think is a good reason.
> 
> The schedule I made for it (Philly can you dig it up for me please) calls for just two trainsets. Extending it down any further requires three or four. And it's better to have an initial train start off simple.
> 
> On the matter if who pays the dime it's over 750 miles so it could fall under national network. But I would say Ohio could potentially fund it (after Kasisch) and potentially New York State. Which would give them a night train NYP-BUF. For stations it could be a cross between states and towns. And I believe the population on the route is larger then most of the other routes. And two sets of equipment for daily operation isn't horrible.


This was yours: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66222-ohio-state-limited-nyp-buf-cle-cin/

I proposed my own schedule that allowed for transfers to/from my Liberty Limited but that required three sets.

Your schedule has a 12:02pm arrival into CIN and a 3:43pm departure so that would require the train to be turned in under four hours. I'm not sure the 8:11am arrival into NYP is feasible. Maybe move the eastbound back an hour?


----------



## Seaboard92

That could be done. It's doable to arrive at that hour. Especially if you replace the Empire Service that runs in that slot with it. But I can see shoving it back. I think a short turn could work it would be tight. But the piedmont can do a very short turn but it also has a far shorter route.


----------



## Seaboard92

In my schedule I didn't factor in upgrades to speed. That's all based on today's timetable. So if amtrak were to return and CSX/nS demand track improvements then it would actually be a faster run.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, if it's delayed, you're screwed. How fast, physically, can Amtrak turn a train with cleaning etc? Probably only a few hours.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

OK, which schedule is accurate? Seaboard92's schedule or Philly's schedule?


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## Seaboard92

Mine is accurate for that route under today's conditions. For the NYP-CLE-CIN.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

OK. Will need 3 sets though. Can't turn an overnight train in 4 hours.

Silver Meteor can't turn at NYP from 11:00am to 3:15pm, 4 hrs and 15 mins.


----------



## Seaboard92

We could push the eastbound back two hours which helps it on both ends


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok, that gets it more time in Cincinnati. Almost 6 hours. If it needs more time, we can shift it to the limit even more.

NYP 817P

CLE 710A/720A

CIN 1152A

CIN 613P

CLE 1050P/1100P

NYP 1041A


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

To connect Ohio to Carolinian, Palmetto and Silver Star, send a connecting train down to the Cardinal at CIN. Done.

I don't want to shift Carolinian schedules, so a bus will be needed CVS to RVR which would connect to the Carolinian. Only 1 bus needed to connect both ways. Silver Star passengers can connect at WAS.

You could even connect to the Palmetto at RVR!

Cardinal 50 910A/919A
CVS 945A
RVR 1115A
Palmetto 89 1207P/1219P
Carolinian 79 1259P/108P

Carolinian 80 205P/212P
Palmetto 90 504P/514P
RVR 545P
CVS 715P
Cardinal 51 743P/752P

Northbound Carolinian passengers can transfer at WAS or ALX.

Carolinian ALX 402P
Carolinian WAS 429P

Proposed Cardinal WAS 500P
Proposed Cardinal WAS 519P
402P to 519P is hopefully enough time to connect at ALX.

Transferring at ALX to the Carolinian is not possible going east to south, unless some schedules are shifted.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I think we're finding that in some cases the more convenient a schedule the more train sets it requires and there often is a give and take between having a train more convenient times for fill in the blank city and/or allow connections to other trains and running trains the cheapest way possible (fewest number of train sets). The cheapest way to do a daily Cardinal is to run it in 3 sets but that leaves CIN in the dark. So do you do it cheaply or spend more for a "better" train?

As for the OSL, I had scheduled it to run close to my LL in what I call an "X formation" with the LL CHI-NYP and the OSL CIN-NYP with the trains joining in CLE. But using that schedule requires 3 sets while Seaboard92's requires only 2. I'm sure if you wanted to add more possible connections you might even need 4 sets. I don't think there is really a right or wrong answer there is just personal preferences.

I honestly feel that if we just use my LL with the through cars CIN-CLE we won't need an OSL and you only have to run a train CIN-CLE and Ohio residents will still be able to go to NYP (they will just go through PGH-PHL instead of BUF-ALB). But I wouldn't object to separate LL and OSL either. It would be nice if they did allow transfers between the two but if that costs much more the transfer wouldn't be necessary (anyone from CIN-CLE who wants to go to PHL or WAS can just transfer in NYP). Now CIN-PGH would be harder to do.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

For day-train service on the Empire Corridor route to Ohio, this might work. It's a REALLY long trip, but it's kinda like the Palmetto, more explained below.

NYP 607A

ALB 840A/855A

BUF 145P/150P

CLE 500P/530P

CIN 1002P

CIN 743A

CLE 1220P/1230P

BUF 340P/345P

ALB 918P/932P

NYP 1211A

Palmetto-style.

People from NYP and ALB would have the Liberty Limited. ALB passengers just hop on over to NYP to connect.

But intermediate stations (Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo etc) can use this train to get to Ohio, in daylight hours.

Same goes for the Palmetto. It departs and arrives in New York at bad hours (not horrible, but a bit inconvenient), as the Silver Star & Silver Meteor handle traffic overnight from the NEC corridor to Savannah and south. Intermediate stations use the Palmetto day train to get places.

How is this?

This style schedule also happened on the IC City of New Orleans, departing Chicago in the morning, Memphis TN around 6pm, and NOL at or after midnight. You can also see this in Arlo Guthrie's "City of New Orleans" song. It's running on the IC track in the morning, departing Kankakee IL going south to New Orleans.

He says "nighttime on the City of New Orleans" as the train arrives in Memphis around 6pm, then through Mississippi in the darkness (after sunset) to the sea (New Orleans). 

Oh, and put better food selections in the Café Car! (if no diner) ^_^

Oh, and this is a 2 set train, so putting on one of those new Viewliner II Diners *might* be an option? :unsure: Amtrak never does that for day trains though.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Max, I don't know if you remember the time they extended the Pennsylvanian west to CHI, truncated east to PHL, and ran it on a "day" schedule. It left one endpoint around 6am and arrived at the other around midnight. It did give CLE and TOL good times for their trains but they departed/arrived in CHI and/or PHL at bad times (close to if not outside of 6am and midnight). The train failed miserably. I think it might have made the Three Rivers look bad as well and caused Amtrak to cancel it as well.

I am not in favor of long "day trains". The trains are probably more for intermediate distances. I would not be in favor of an 18 hour trip from 6am to midnight if I could avoid it. I'd want to sleep part of it off. In your schedule, anyone from Ohio going to NYP would arrive in Penn Station after midnight. Why would they want to? The Palmetto is a little shorter although the NYP times are 6:05am and 11:56pm which I would want no part of, especially if I could use the Silver Meteor. I'd actually rather leave from home in the graveyard shift than arrive in the graveyard shift away from home looking for a hotel or a cab in the middle of the night in an unfamiliar city. I'm not exactly sure why the Palmetto works. It does have the lowest ridership of any daily LD train (but since it has no sleeper service it costs the cheapest).

For a CIN-NYP train, I think you have to run at least part of it overnight. I don't think it should be an issue to run overnight between BUF-ALB. I don't think there's much interest from Ohio cities to/from Rochester and Syracuse (well maybe Syracuse students). The limits for a day train to me would be a window between 7am and 11pm. With that schedule, end to end traffic is undesirable and midpoint to end might be OK.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Buh, you could reserve the hotel though . . .

In the following, I imply this is fact, but I'm only speculating. I didn't want to write "it probably would have been" every time.

Anyway, the new Pennsylvanian only worked in narrow circumstances. Philly at 6:35am isn't that great, seeing that NYPers and WASers can't connect over there at civilized times.

There probably would have been minimal passengers going within Pennsylvania on this train, as other Keystones existed, and Three Rivers did a better daytime job from PHL-PGH.

Only after PGH did this train have any usefulness, and only to Toledo. This train only had usefulness for trips PGH-CLE-TOL, only. If this train did PGH-TOL, it would have cost less to run it, and it would have done useful, no-other-day-train-on-the-route daytime service to Ohio. I'm not sure if Ohio subsidized the train either, as a Republican governor was governing Ohio at the time. I don't anything advanced about politics though, so don't trust that.

The Palmetto does have lousy NYP times, but at least has better times serving all the cities south of NYP. The Pennsylvanian didn't have any major cities until Harrisburg, and only another one at Pittsburgh. The Palmetto probably gets riders around Philadelphia and Washington DC, and that's the NEC too. That would go down to Richmond and the Carolinas. Then I'm not sure why the Palmetto works south of Richmond. There aren't major cities along that part of the route, and Carolinian does all the cities in the Carolinas.

Opposed to that, this new day train thingy has major cities at Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and Cleveland before heading through more of Ohio. But then you say that there probably aren't many passengers going from upstate NY to Ohio, so that kills the train. But that's just your speculation. I'm consistently seeing Toledo being 10th in ridership from upstate NY stations (NARP data), and the LSL serves that westbound at a good-ish time, compared to Cleveland. So there's not much very good data on that, unless your "speculation" has some more different data behind it. Maybe I should take a look at airplane data to see upstate NY to Ohio flights. But then again, those flights might be expensive.

So, IDK. It has multiple cities along its route, something the Palmetto doesn't have south of Richmond (Richmond gets served by a lot of other trains too), but I haven't found good ridership data between cities upstate NY to Ohio. It does have more train-competition between NYP and BUF, but unlike the former Pennsylvanian, it has more cities to serve at unnoticeably different (in terms of convenience) times compared to competing trains (in this case, Empire Service trains).

After analyzing more details of the train and other trains you and I mentioned, this is my "supporting evidence" for this proposed day-train. I will check airplane ridership data for this train.

Thanks for reading.

If there's any flaws I missed that you didn't mention yet, please mention them. Thanks!

*EDIT:*

From Toledo OH, in 2014, top ridership stations from here were, in upstate NY,

5. Syracuse NY

6. Rochester NY

7. Buffalo NY

8. Albany NY.

For Cleveland:

4. Syracuse NY

6. Albany NY

7. Rochester NY

9. Buffalo NY.

The other way,

at Syracuse and Rochester and Buffalo,

10. Toledo

is the only thing I see.

So there's ridership on this section.


----------



## neroden

For what it's worth I know some of those Toledo passengers from upstate NY. Many of them are heading to Michigan.

(A Toledo-Ann Arbor-Lansing-Grand Rapids train which connected to the LSL would fill up instantly.)


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

There certainly is traffic from TOL to upstate New York but there's clearly more to NYP. I'm just saying if someone has to get a time in the graveyard shift, should it be the #1 destination on the route for Ohioans (assuming NYP-CIN)? I'm not saying there won't be traffic before NYP. Of course there will be. I'm just thinking all things being equal that there will be more to NYP and the train should be scheduled more for Ohio and for NYP than to make NYP the city with the difficult time(s).

As for being 5th-8th on TOL's list, remember that's 5th-8th among LSL and CL cities and there aren't that many. CHI doesn't crack the top 10 of NYP destinations but does in most of the upstate NY destinations. Does that mean more people travel from ROC to CHI than NYP to CHI? Of course not. There's just many more cities to travel to/from NYP.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, this again means this train is useless. If the Palmetto doesn't work in your eyes, then this won't either.

Because Ohioans can use the Liberty Limited to get to NYP.

This train works from CIN to ALB (at good enough times), and if there's not enough trips between those cities, then yes, this train's dead. I assumed there would be enough.

Other options, like terminating the train in BUF for BUF-CIN, those seem kinda silly to me, as only trips within Ohio and those to Buffalo are served, but still 2 sets are needed to run it, or CIN is in the graveyard shift going south.

CIN 743A

CLE 1220P/1230P

BUF 330P

Piedmont turn is 2 hours

BUF 530P

CLE 900P/910P

CIN 142A

That's the train on 1 set.

So I'm assuming there's not enough traffic between upstate NY and Ohio to make a day train.


----------



## Seaboard92

Well there is another route that just got hinted at that would do really well. DET-BUF-NYP. I know in previous threads someone has said that it is the most asked for route that doesn't exist. So let's say we put the NYP-DET train on day shift via CLE,TOL that would pull our day market and I have a schedule for this on another thread. Then the OSL takes the night run NYP-CLE and continues on to CIN. That now gives Cleveland two new options to go east a day train with no connections and a night train with connections.

Then to keep the day train on the OSL route and Empire route at the same time. If Ohio would fund it a Buckeye Corridor train that connects to the Detroit train. Which then gives two frequencies to the Buckeye corridor a morning and evening departure from both end points. CIN and CLE are the main winners.


----------



## Bob Dylan

"..if Ohio will fund.." requires a change in the State Government!

Let's hope Ohio's current anti-rail Governor doesn't make it back to Washington so he can kill Amtrak and other Rail projects!


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

How many hours from TOL to DET?


----------



## Seaboard92

I figured it I think for 1.5


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok.

DET 750A

CLE 920A/930A

NYP 911P

NYP 807A

CLE 700A/710A

DET 840P

It still takes 11 hours to do.


----------



## Seaboard92

If you dig Max I have a full schedule for all stops somewhere on au


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

You mean your Ohio State Limited?

Or all the stops Amtrak has ever operated to? Including every single pathetic route like the Lake Country Limited?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> Ok.
> 
> DET 750A
> 
> CLE 920A/930A
> 
> NYP 911P
> 
> NYP 807A
> 
> CLE 700A/710A
> 
> DET 840P
> 
> It still takes 11 hours to do.


This was jjs's proposal way back in November. The 38/39 left both ends at 6:15am. The ends were late but before midnight.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66254-phl-chi-route-options/?p=634723


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Progress so far:

I'm hoping we're all in agreement on the new Liberty Limited and rescheduled Cardinal schedules.

The LL will serve CLE and TOL outside of the graveyard shift and will travel from Ohio to Chicago via Michigan and to Philadelphia/New York via Pittsburgh. The train is scheduled to travel overnight between PGH and PHL.

The new Cardinal will serve CIN outside of the graveyard shift and will travel west to Chicago via Indy and east to WAS/NYP/PHL via Charlottesville. The train is scheduled to travel overnight through West Virginia. Hopefully, through cars will branch off at IND to go to STL and connect with the Texas Eagle.

The next idea is how to implement service between CLE and CIN (3-C, including potentially Columbus/Dayton). I proposed through cars to/from the Liberty Limited at CLE. Another proposal is a separate CIN-NYP via CLE and the Empire Route. If this route is used instead of my through cars proposal, passengers south of CLE will be trading in PHL/Keystone Route for BUF/Empire Route (both options will end up in NYP). I would hope that a separate CIN-NYP train would give the chance to connect in CLE to/from the LL but that would require an additional train set. Another idea is to run it as a daytime train without sleepers but with the schedule it could potentially reach CIN and/or NYP in the graveyard shift. I am against that and would prefer overnight through upstate New York.

Also gaining steam is a proposed NYP-Michigan train going through CLE and DET. If the LL goes through Michigan, they will have a train to/from PHL and NYP and is scheduled to be in Ann Arbor around 4:20pm going east and 3:55pm coming from the east. Max listed NYP-DET schedules taking approximately 13 hrs from endpoint to endpoint which if the times can be done they seem to be nice schedules that keep everyone outside of the graveyard shift and have times not too early or too late.

I would eventually like to see service south of CIN to Louisville and Nashville but that should be further down the road. Maybe it would be better to have a train from IND (Hoosier State) to Louisville/Nashville first to give those cities/states service to CHI (a lot closer than NYP and depending on the times the opportunity for western transfers).

Hopefully this brings us up to speed.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> For what it's worth I know some of those Toledo passengers from upstate NY. Many of them are heading to Michigan.
> 
> (A Toledo-Ann Arbor-Lansing-Grand Rapids train which connected to the LSL would fill up instantly.)


Nate, I wanted to get your opinions on how do you think these trains will perform financially. You have said that you see a significant increase in the bottom line with the CL/Pennsylvanian connection (possibly profitable above the rail). Do you see my proposed LL train being profitable above the rail? If it gets added, how will that affect the Capitol Limited's bottom line? Does having both the CL and LL help both trains or hurt both trains' profitability? Others can chime in as well.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

I screwed up on the DET-NYP schedules. Big time.

I said DET-CLE was 1.5 hours, when in reality, DET-TOL was 1.5 hours, maybe 2.

But that's 40-50 mph. Are the tracks really that slow?

If so, that brings it up to 17 hours, totally not doable.

NYP 710A (pretty early already)

CLE 657P/715P

TOL 925P/945P

DET 1115P. That's too late.

I'm sorry I made the mistake. And would like to ask, is CLE-CIN all 79 mph capable?

Thanks.


----------



## Seaboard92

Parts of it are fairly close. Especially the CSX line south of Cleveland ex New York Central. I want to say it might have a passenger speed limit around 70 which I found odd for a line that never sees a passenger train.

Philly I love the name Liberty Limited. But everytime I read it I think of the ex PRR train from Washington to Chicago. I'm curious how you came up with it?


----------



## Seaboard92

And Philly thanks for digging my schedule up. As I couldn't find it at all


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> Philly I love the name Liberty Limited. But everytime I read it I think of the ex PRR train from Washington to Chicago. I'm curious how you came up with it?


Giving it a Philadelphia name (Liberty Bell) hopefully will give Philadelphia residents the feeling it's their train as opposed to Broadway Limited (NY) or Three Rivers (Pittsburgh). But "Liberty" still works for New York (Statue of Liberty). I wouldn't mind it called the Broadway but Three Rivers doesn't sound like too good a name for me.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Nate, I wanted to get your opinions


I'm completely lost. There have been too many proposed schedules for too many different routes in too many different parts of Ohio and I can't keep 'em straight.


----------



## jis

Echoing neroden's point, could someone please create a consolidate time table like I did way back when, the one that Philly referred to in response to Max's New York - Detroit proposal? Thanks.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, I fixed mine and it took 17 hours, and that's too long for a day train. So we should terminate it in TOL or CLE, which is more manageable, but still a long trip.

Or do BUF to DET. Except BUF doesn't have overnight facilities so it would terminate in Niagara Falls NY instead where some Empires stop off overnight.

Or BUF to CHI if that works, but I don't know how great that is.

For Ohio to NYP, the Liberty Limited is there.

So this New York to Detroit train isn't consolidated in my mind yet, but the Liberty Limited and rescheduled Cardinal is.


----------



## jis

Why is the 17 hours even relevant. It is not like there will be a huge number of people traveling end to end. I expect a lot of the traffic will be mid point to mid point or midpoint to one end or the other.

This hypothetical train is only about two hours longer than the Palmetto, and if the Palmetto were extended to Jacksonville like it was for a time, it would be about 17 hours or a bit more too.

Just like the Palmetto has a choice of either terminating in Savannah for 15 hours or Jacksonville for 17 hours plus, this hypothetical rain has a choice of terminating at Toledo for about 15 hours or Detroit for about 17 hours.

And existence or not of this hypothetical train should not detract form considering another hypothetical day train from Chicago to Niagara Falls or some such.

My standing assumption is that it will be quite a while before a northeast to southwest Ohio train will materialize. There is a greater chance of enhancing service on the Buffalo or Pittsburgh to Toledo/Detroit sector


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, Philly doesn't like long day trains. I think it's good enough, (it's for upstate NY not for NYP) so NYP can be a bad time, in my opinion.

NYP 610A

ALB 850A/935A

BUF 225P/230P

CLE 558P/615P

TOL 825P/845P

DET 1015P

DET 750A

TOL 920A/950A

CLE 1205P/1220P

BUF 316P/321P

ALB 820P/915P got rid of the padding

NYP 1155P

Very similar to the NYP to CIN schedule Philly didn't like.

This train isn't for NYP. The Liberty Limited is.

Or terminate it in ALB?


----------



## jis

I agree. Besides, New Yorkers have a huge problem catching a train at 6 am anyway. So why worry about New Yorkers? A good day train en route is a good thing to have. If Philly doesn't like it, well that is one opinion and that is fine. Does not mean everyone else has to fall in line.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nate, I wanted to get your opinions
> 
> 
> 
> I'm completely lost. There have been too many proposed schedules for too many different routes in too many different parts of Ohio and I can't keep 'em straight.
Click to expand...

OK, start with just my Liberty Limited proposal. What do you see as the financial performance of the train when compared to the current CHI-NEC trains (LSL, CL, Cardinal)?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> Well, Philly doesn't like long day trains. I think it's good enough, (it's for upstate NY not for NYP) so NYP can be a bad time, in my opinion.





jis said:


> I agree. Besides, New Yorkers have a huge problem catching a train at 6 am anyway. So why worry about New Yorkers? A good day train en route is a good thing to have. If Philly doesn't like it, well that is one opinion and that is fine. Does not mean everyone else has to fall in line.



The question then becomes if you assume minimal or no traffic to/from NYP is there enough traffic on the rest of the route to make it worthwhile financially?


jis said:


> Why is the 17 hours even relevant. It is not like there will be a huge number of people traveling end to end. I expect a lot of the traffic will be mid point to mid point or midpoint to one end or the other.


If you run a 17 hour train as a "day train" it puts the beginning of the train very early and the end of the train very late. So the train will be less attractive to those markets if scheduled that way. Any train that long will require someone to be stuck with a "bad" time. The question is who? I'm saying you find your target markets and schedule the train around them. If your target markets for a DET-NYP train are really BUF and ALB, then schedule it so they have good times. But if your target markets are DET and NYP, then schedule it so they have good times. That is what I feel is the largest fundamental problem with the Cardinal and the point of this whole thread in the first place. Your largest unique markets of the Cardinal are IND and CIN. IND's times are early morning and late night and CIN's times are in the middle of the night.

There is a lot of ridership along upstate New York but how many trains go through Syracuse or Rochester that don't go to New York? Only one I can think of is the Boston section of the LSL. I question whether upstate New York (ALB, SYR, ROC, BUF) can support a train without New York. I'm not even sure CHI to BUF or CHI to ALB would work without NYP or another large market like BOS or PHL and I really think you will get low ridership for CIN to BUF and/or ALB and DET to BUF and/or ALB. I think 3-C on its own will work and certainly will see traffic between the three cities. But if you extend it just to BUF or just to ALB, do you gain more ridership? And if the departure/arrival times in CIN then have to be bad, I think that hurts ridership there.

The Pennsylvanian between CHI and PHL failed. It gave better times to CLE and TOL but where did they want to travel to? CHI and PHL? Then they have to depart/arrive at bad times so it really wasn't much better than leaving home at 3 in the morning. And I think cutting NYP out of the Pennsylvanian was terrible. Once they made it PGH to NYP as opposed to CHI to PHL, ridership increased. How will these other trains that either leave on both ends close to or in the graveyard shift and/or do not serve NYP be able to do what the Pennsylvanian CHI-PHL didn't?

In terms of Amtrak finances, you can look at it in three ways:

1. The propose anything and hypothetically Amtrak will one day be able to fund it philosophy.

2. The Amtrak has no spare money and all of these are pointless philosophy.

3. It will come down to Amtrak can afford some new trains but not others and the question is which trains do you pay for? philosophy.

I have always looked at Amtrak from the last philosophy. As much as we want to have Amtrak have hundreds of routes Amtrak will never have enough money. They have to pick and choose which trains run and which don't.

I'd be upset if Amtrak started another train if I thought the money it spent could be used on a Liberty Limited/Broadway Limited train and the other train was less financially successful than the LL/BL would be (if it was more financially successful I would not object). I'm mad at the Cardinal now because I feel they stole the BL's spot. If Amtrak wasn't forced to restart the Cardinal after canceling it, I think the Broadway would've never been canceled.

Theoretically we shouldn't be competing for trains but realistically we are.


----------



## Seaboard92

I'm with Nerodin can someone please out every proposed schedule on one document. Of everyone's schedule. Including my day trains to Detroit, my OSL. And Philly's trains and max's and maybe do them by route. So NYP-DET on one table. NYP-CIN on another one. I'm so confused.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Well these are mine with new LL, OSL, and rescheduled Cardinal. I put some of the possible transfers in as well.

If I can get a few more detailed schedules, I can put together a .pdf file for the others.

Liberty Limited Ohio State Limited Rescheduled Cardinal March 2016.pdf


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

*51 Cardinal 50 Cardinal*

NYP 1245P 358P

NWK 105P 338P

TRE 142P 302P

PHL 215P 226P

WIL 244P 205P

BAL 330P 116P

drifted too far to the left :/

*92** Silver Star 91 Silver Star*

MIA 1150A 558P

TPA 513P/527P 1223P/1237P

JAX 1043A/1103A 639A/659A

SAV 116A/122A 413A/418A

RVR 1207P/1216P 507/517P

WAS 238P 305P

*97** Silver Meteor 98 Silver Meteor*

MIA 810A 639P

JAX 447P/507P 909A/934A

SAV 723P/731P 634A/640A

RVR 422A/432A 934P/944P

WAS 707A 725P

*51** Cardinal 50 Cardinal *

WAS 500P 1219P

ALX 519P 1159A

MSS 552P 1110A

CLP 625P 1035A

CVS 743P 919A

*80** Carolinian 79 Carolinian*

CLT 700A 812P

RGH 1017A/1025A 442P/450P

RVR 205P 108P

*90** Palmetto 89 Palmetto *

SAV 820A 904P

RVR 504P 1219P

*Connector Bus** 4051 Connector Bus 4050*

RVR 545P 1115A

CVS 715P 945A

*51** Cardinal 50 Cardinal*

CVS 752P 910A

STA 854P 804A

CLF 1013P 644A

WSS 1105P 539A

ALD 1136P 502A

HIN 1206A 434A

PRC 1243A 402A

THN 1259A 341A

MNG 150A 250A

CHW 229A 221A

HUN 344A/351A 109A/116A

AKY 414A 1235A

SPM 457A 1145P

MAY 552A 1052P

CIN 731A 927P

*451** Buckeye State 450 Buckeye State*

CIN 813A 802P

CLE 1250P 330P It's only a few coaches, come on 

*51* *Cardinal* *50* *Cardinal*

CIN 741A 917P

COI 936A 721P

IND 1115A 559P

*Thru cars 751** Cardinal Thru cars **750** Cardinal*

IND 1230P 430P

TIME CHANGE TIME CHANGE

STL 630P 830A

*Thru cars 51** Cardinal Thru cars 50 Cardinal*

IND 1200N 550P

CRF 1258P 431P

LAF 136P 357P

TIME CHANGE TIME CHANGE

REN 140P 146P

DYE 229P 1255P

CHI 405P 1145A

That's the Cardinal schedule.


----------



## Seaboard92

Philly can you add my times on there as well?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> Philly can you add my times on there as well?


This has both of my 3-C scenarios, your schedule, and two of Max's (through cars to my Cardinal and the day train). The 3-C route is on top followed by any other part of the same trains.

3C Proposals Amtrak Unlimited March 2016.pdf


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

2 pending questions,

1. From CIN to CLE, whose schedule is accurate? Seaboard's is a bunch faster, but I don't know if that's accurate, when Philly has his.

And is there a place to access the freight schedules Seaboard92 got for his OSL?

2. Do you think 2 hours in CLE is enough?

Thanks.

By Seaboard92's schedule,

Cardinal 731A/741A

CIN 813A

CLE 1250P!

CLE 330P

CIN 802P

Cardinal 917P/927P

much faster 

By Philly's schedule,

Cardinal 731A/741A

CIN 800A

CLE 145P

CLE 345P

CIN 900P

Cardinal 917P/927P

barely able to make it.

Philly's schedule isn't bad, just slow. There's nothing we can do if it's true.

So, AAO is paranoid about slow trains, or NS/CSX is fooling us.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

maxbuskirk said:


> 2 pending questions,
> 
> 1. From CIN to CLE, whose schedule is accurate? Seaboard's is a bunch faster, but I don't know if that's accurate, when Philly has his.
> 
> And is there a place to access the freight schedules Seaboard92 got for his OSL?


I used times from All Aboard Ohio's proposal shifted.


----------



## Seaboard92

I went into an employee timetable and calculated run times in a best case scenario. Having access to them helps a lot. I used the current speeds on each route which is surprisingly high


----------



## Palmetto

There's a discussion going on at railroad.net about the CSX downgrading part of the route of the Cardinal. Not good, since all proposed schedules here will have to be redone if that happens. The reason is the downturn in coal traffic on the Cincinnati Subdivision. Norfolk Southern just consolidated into two operating divisions for the same reason, so speculation about the CSX downgrade is not unreasonable.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> The question then becomes if you assume minimal or no traffic to/from NYP is there enough traffic on the rest of the route to make it worthwhile financially?


Why would you assume that? Is there any evidence that there is minimal or no traffic on the Palmetto from New York which departs at 6:05am? I am sorry you are creating strawmen based on nothing and knocking them down. So no I don't assume that at all, and question the sanity of anyone that does. That takes care of that objection


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

What about the Palmetto into New York at 11:36pm? That's kinda late night, too.

And how did Seaboard get the employee timetables? Did you work there or are they public or do you have to buy them or bribe them?


----------



## jis

As I said, Palmetto works as is with its somewhat less than ideal time at both ends. We should not decide not to run a service simply because they do not have ideal times everywhere. Specifically New York is such a huge O/D that an early departure or a late arrival works in spite of being somewhat inconvenient.


----------



## CCC1007

"The city that never sleeps"


----------



## keelhauled

To the best of my knowledge, the last detailed public ridership data for the Palmetto was from the PIP report in 2011, which showed that at least 18% of its passengers passed through NYP, including the three most popular single station pairings. The Palmetto has also traditionally been among the best performing (or at least least money-losing) long distance trains, so it seems safe to say that an extended day schedule is feasible.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok. That's means 82% of the train is empty at New York.

But that also means a fifth of all Palmetto riders go to New York.

2 very different ways of thinking about it.


----------



## Seaboard92

maxbuskirk said:


> What about the Palmetto into New York at 11:36pm? That's kinda late night, too.
> 
> And how did Seaboard get the employee timetables? Did you work there or are they public or do you have to buy them or bribe them?


I work in the railroad excursion business. Especially in high volume sports charters that I'm working on starting up. I have a shelf of them all. But you can find them online. I'll send them your way when I find the links again if you like.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Ok. And is there an easier way to find what rail line is what subdivision and such?

It seemed fast to go from CIN to COL in 2 hours, 120 miles.


----------



## Seaboard92

Honestly reading those timetables is very hard at times especially out of the area. When I get back into my office today after a filling I'll let you know which subs I used. I know I used an all New York Central routing which is CSX to Columbus and Ns from there to CIN

That's an average speed of 60 mph between those two cities.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> That's an average speed of 60 mph between those two cities.


The question I have is, would that be a reasonable timetable speed, given allowances for delays due to congestion etc. Afterall, seldom does a train get a straight shot from one station to another anymore these days, except on the almost dedicated corridors.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question then becomes if you assume minimal or no traffic to/from NYP is there enough traffic on the rest of the route to make it worthwhile financially?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you assume that? Is there any evidence that there is minimal or no traffic on the Palmetto from New York which departs at 6:05am? I am sorry you are creating strawmen based on nothing and knocking them down. So no I don't assume that at all, and question the sanity of anyone that does. That takes care of that objection
Click to expand...




maxbuskirk said:


> What about the Palmetto into New York at 11:36pm? That's kinda late night, too.


Recent data: http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf

Silver Meteor: NYP 87,227, PHL 25,600, WAS 39,941

Silver Star: NYP 61,363, PHL 23,971, WAS 38,991

Palmetto: NYP 45,323, PHL 21,497, WAS 40,593

Almost twice as many NYP passengers ride the SM than the Palmetto. A lot more NYP passengers ride the SS than the Palmetto. You would think that would be normal because it includes Florida but WAS has slightly more passengers riding the Palmetto than the Silver Meteor. WAS ridership among the three trains is roughly even. Same with PHL. But huge gaps in NYP. Do you think it's a coincidence the worst scheduled train is the least attractive to NYP? If the lack of Florida is the reason for the drop, why don't we see similar drops for PHL and WAS?

And another train with more ridership further south...

Cardinal: NYP 13,651, PHL 6,590, WAS 18,752

The Cardinal also has an early departure and somewhat late departure.

Still believe trains scheduled at un-ideal times doesn't hurt ridership?



jis said:


> As I said, Palmetto works as is with its somewhat less than ideal time at both ends. We should not decide not to run a service simply because they do not have ideal times everywhere. Specifically New York is such a huge O/D that an early departure or a late arrival works in spite of being somewhat inconvenient.


Doesn't mean the train won't be more popular if better scheduled so the train departs/arrives peak markets at ideal times. Amtrak is short sleepers now and overnight trains tend to cost less than overnight ones so you certainly can run a day train with less cost. But an overnight train with better times will add ridership. Plus, sleeper service certainly can bring in big bucks.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well! Where else would you end the train? ALB?

Do you really think the whole train shouldn't run just because of NYP? Part of the reason this train runs to NYP is there wasn't a better place to terminate it. Maybe shift the train even more and run it to BOS? All because NYP is bad? I don't know.

As an afterthought, ALB doesn't need a good time anyway. . . which then brings us to the OSL. . .

Yeah, just thought upstate NY could get better service going west. I guess that's not needed.

On another thing, I think I mentioned earlier doing a connecting train to BOS. To make that good too, then it would need 3 sets instead of 2.

CIN 243P

CLE 720P/750P

ALB 450A

(ALB 505A)

(BOS 1001A)

ALB 545A

NYP 823A.

NYP 840P

ALB 1120P

(BOS 550P)

(ALB something)

ALB 1205A

CLE 827A/845A

CIN 217P

I got interrupted though


----------



## jis

Adding sleeper service so far tends to make the train lose more money than it brings in. For sleepers to work adding just one or two is not enough, specially if it drags a Diner in with it. You have to be able to add half a dozen and actually fill them. Day trains have in general always performed better financially barring just a few exceptions. That is why the private railroads tended to kill sleeper service first on marginal routes.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Max, would you consider for your day trains...

Westbound leave an hour later so NYP 7:07am getting into CIN at 11:02pm.

Eastbound leave a half hour earlier so NYP 7:13am getting into NYP at 11:41pm.

I would still prefer any of the others to the day train schedule though. I think your idea of linking your Buckeye State to the Cardinal at CIN is intriguing but I think you will have more potential ridership if you go the other way connecting through CLE to either an Empire Route train or a Pennsylvanian/Keystone Route train (especially with Palmetto's news about the Cardinal route). If you want to connect 3-C service to a train heading to the NEC, CLE is much closer to the East Coast than CIN. So it makes more sense for the train to connect there.

Now you do lose direct CIN-WAS service but my intention would be through cars to BAL and WAS off of the Liberty Limited but even without it, it is a simple transfer in PHL and most of the southern trains that serve WAS serve PHL so anyone who wishes to transfer south can do so in PHL instead of WAS.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Or both?

Connects to Palmetto and Carolinian too.

NYP 652A hur hur hur

CLE 545P/615P

CIN 1047P

CIN 713A i guess thats good enough

CLE 1150A/1200N

NYP 1141P yeah ok.

. . .


----------



## keelhauled

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Recent data: http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf
> 
> Silver Meteor: NYP 87,227, PHL 25,600, WAS 39,941
> 
> Silver Star: NYP 61,363, PHL 23,971, WAS 38,991
> 
> Palmetto: NYP 45,323, PHL 21,497, WAS 40,593
> 
> Almost twice as many NYP passengers ride the SM than the Palmetto. A lot more NYP passengers ride the SS than the Palmetto. You would think that would be normal because it includes Florida but WAS has slightly more passengers riding the Palmetto than the Silver Meteor. WAS ridership among the three trains is roughly even. Same with PHL. But huge gaps in NYP. Do you think it's a coincidence the worst scheduled train is the least attractive to NYP? If the lack of Florida is the reason for the drop, why don't we see similar drops for PHL and WAS?


Considering that about 200,000 people rode the Palmetto, compared to about 400,000 on the Star and 342,000 on the Meteor, it is entirely unsurprising that the Palmetto would serve fewer New York passengers. Furthermore, the 45,000 passengers that rode the Palmetto to New York represent about $3.8 million in revenue, presumably lost if it were cut back. After all, it provides the only daylight service along the line that the Meteor passes through in darkness. Surely you can appreciate the value of daytime service. In any case, Palmetto comparisons are like to be moot now, considering that it now serves as a Regional frequency north of WAS...unless you consider the possibility of a day train across New York making local stops south of Albany, which incidentally currently lacks a late night southbound frequency.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

keelhauled said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recent data: http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf
> 
> Silver Meteor: NYP 87,227, PHL 25,600, WAS 39,941
> 
> Silver Star: NYP 61,363, PHL 23,971, WAS 38,991
> 
> Palmetto: NYP 45,323, PHL 21,497, WAS 40,593
> 
> Almost twice as many NYP passengers ride the SM than the Palmetto. A lot more NYP passengers ride the SS than the Palmetto. You would think that would be normal because it includes Florida but WAS has slightly more passengers riding the Palmetto than the Silver Meteor. WAS ridership among the three trains is roughly even. Same with PHL. But huge gaps in NYP. Do you think it's a coincidence the worst scheduled train is the least attractive to NYP? If the lack of Florida is the reason for the drop, why don't we see similar drops for PHL and WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Considering that about 200,000 people rode the Palmetto, compared to about 400,000 on the Star and 342,000 on the Meteor, it is entirely unsurprising that the Palmetto would serve fewer New York passengers.
Click to expand...

Then why do we not see this same phenomenon in PHL and WAS?


----------



## keelhauled

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recent data: http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf
> 
> Silver Meteor: NYP 87,227, PHL 25,600, WAS 39,941
> 
> Silver Star: NYP 61,363, PHL 23,971, WAS 38,991
> 
> Palmetto: NYP 45,323, PHL 21,497, WAS 40,593
> 
> Almost twice as many NYP passengers ride the SM than the Palmetto. A lot more NYP passengers ride the SS than the Palmetto. You would think that would be normal because it includes Florida but WAS has slightly more passengers riding the Palmetto than the Silver Meteor. WAS ridership among the three trains is roughly even. Same with PHL. But huge gaps in NYP. Do you think it's a coincidence the worst scheduled train is the least attractive to NYP? If the lack of Florida is the reason for the drop, why don't we see similar drops for PHL and WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Considering that about 200,000 people rode the Palmetto, compared to about 400,000 on the Star and 342,000 on the Meteor, it is entirely unsurprising that the Palmetto would serve fewer New York passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do we not see this same phenomenon in PHL and WAS?
Click to expand...

Probably cause midnight is late. I ain't saying it isn't. I am saying it's a whole lot better terminating the Palmetto at NYP than Washington for the sake of not letting people travel after some arbitrary time defined as "apparently past your bedtime" and throwing away millions of dollars of revenue in the process.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

keelhauled said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recent data: http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf
> 
> Silver Meteor: NYP 87,227, PHL 25,600, WAS 39,941
> 
> Silver Star: NYP 61,363, PHL 23,971, WAS 38,991
> 
> Palmetto: NYP 45,323, PHL 21,497, WAS 40,593
> 
> Almost twice as many NYP passengers ride the SM than the Palmetto. A lot more NYP passengers ride the SS than the Palmetto. You would think that would be normal because it includes Florida but WAS has slightly more passengers riding the Palmetto than the Silver Meteor. WAS ridership among the three trains is roughly even. Same with PHL. But huge gaps in NYP. Do you think it's a coincidence the worst scheduled train is the least attractive to NYP? If the lack of Florida is the reason for the drop, why don't we see similar drops for PHL and WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Considering that about 200,000 people rode the Palmetto, compared to about 400,000 on the Star and 342,000 on the Meteor, it is entirely unsurprising that the Palmetto would serve fewer New York passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do we not see this same phenomenon in PHL and WAS?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Probably cause midnight is late. I ain't saying it isn't. I am saying it's a whole lot better terminating the Palmetto at NYP than Washington for the sake of not letting people travel after some arbitrary time defined as "apparently past your bedtime" and throwing away millions of dollars of revenue in the process.
Click to expand...

But could the Palmetto be rescheduled for better arrival/departure times in NYP? Just looking at the times quickly, you could leave around an hour later from NYP (7am) and arrive around an hour earlier (11pm). That would be around a 10pm arrival into Savannah and a 7am departure and still have a day train. Even if you leave two hours later from NYP (8am) you'd still get to Savannah around 11pm which is earlier than the current Palmetto gets in now. And as I said before, you'd rather arrive at home late and then drive home or have a family member pick you up late than arrive late in a big city away from home which could be unsafe.

I do know that they did terminate the Pennsylvanian at PHL because the arrival into NYP would have been well after midnight. Should they have just continued and arrived in NYP at 1:30am? Who knows?

Or better yet, improve the schedule. For any train this long, someone is going to draw the short end of the stick. Why have it be the biggest and most popular city along the route?


----------



## CCC1007

Equipment and crew rotation need to be considered in these schedules. You don't want to have a train arriving too late to turn for the next morning's train, and you don't want to have a crew siting around for a full day because their rest forced them to miss the outbound train.


----------



## keelhauled

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> But could the Palmetto be rescheduled for better arrival/departure times in NYP? Just looking at the times quickly, you could leave around an hour later from NYP (7am) and arrive around an hour earlier (11pm). That would be around a 10pm arrival into Savannah and a 7am departure and still have a day train. Even if you leave two hours later from NYP (8am) you'd still get to Savannah around 11pm which is earlier than the current Palmetto gets in now. And as I said before, you'd rather arrive at home late and then drive home or have a family member pick you up late than arrive late in a big city away from home which could be unsafe.
> 
> I do know that they did terminate the Pennsylvanian at PHL because the arrival into NYP would have been well after midnight. Should they have just continued and arrived in NYP at 1:30am? Who knows?
> 
> Or better yet, improve the schedule. For any train this long, someone is going to draw the short end of the stick. Why have it be the biggest and most popular city along the route?


The 7:00 am slot out of NYP is the Carolinian's. 8:00 is close enough to rush hour Amtrak is never going to move a nonessential train against the inbound flood of movements through the tunnels. Northbound running the train earlier is no longer an option since they combined a Regional frequency into the Palmetto (the same is true southbound), and in any case the earlier you put it the closer it comes to running up against the Carolinian again.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

But the Carolinian runs 3 hours earlier than the Palmetto going north.


----------



## jis

So I guess finally we have agreement that a train arriving at 10 or 11 pm in New York is fine. Now we have just devolved back into solving non existent problems to waste our time as is often the case on AU. Really, the Palmetto is just fine and needs no change. Can we now move back to discussing hypothetical trains in Ohio?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

What about midnight though?

This train isn't for NYP. Sure we can shift it a little bit to accommodate New York, but that can't affect CIN too much IMO.


----------



## keelhauled

maxbuskirk said:


> What about midnight though?


If I could direct your attention to posts 251, 253, 255, and 256...


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

But, nobody really agreed to it. I agree if there's enough time to turn it, and there's another train along the route that serves it better, but nobody really said "Midnight is bad!" or "Midnight is good enough" or something like that. We just discussed the pros and cons of it.


----------



## jis

Is there a proposed schedule with an endpoint midnight arrival we are struggling with? Or is this question with regard to en route stops?

If you look at dense commuter service typically there is massive service reduction from a little after midnight to around 4:30 to 5 am.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

It's NYP we're struggling with. CIN to NYP or DET to NYP both put NYP around midnight.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

So look

BUF represents all of upstate NY here.

NYP to BUF? Empire Service or LSL.

BUF to CLE or CIN? use this train.

NYP to CLE or CIN? use Liberty Limited.

That's why this day train would exist.

You could also ride the train the entire way, but that would be tiring.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

NYP 647A

CIN 1042P

CIN 718A

NYP 1146P

Sorry I didn't combine the last 3 posts :/


----------



## jis

maxbuskirk said:


> NYP 647A
> 
> CIN 1042P
> 
> CIN 718A
> 
> NYP 1146P
> 
> Sorry I didn't combine the last 3 posts :/


That looks absolutely fine to me.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

I think it *mostly* fits the compromise Philly suggested, just the westbound departs earlier by 20 mins and eastbound arrives 5 mins later at NYP.

If this runs, I think this is good.

Now:

Cardinal done,

Liberty Limited done,

NYP-CIN or DET day train done (people liked DET better I think)

but CLE-CIN has some disagreement.

Should this day train run NYP-CIN or NYP-DET or both and split at CLE?

I'm going off of Philly's schedule. I'm in the 'paranoid of slow trains' group, especially as this is a far-future (at least 10 years) train.

1. LVL to CLE connect to LL.

Move the LL earlier.

NYP 905P

PGH 615A/630A

CLE 930A/1005A

CHI 530P

CLE 1015A

CIN 400P/415P

LVL 845P!

LVL 930A!

CIN 200P/215P

CLE 800P

2. NSH to CIN to connect to the Cardinal.

NSH 1045A!

LVL 315P/330P!

CIN 800P

Cardinal 917P/927P

Cardinal 731A/741A

CIN 845A

LVL 115P/130P

NSH 600P

L&N did CIN-LVL in 3 hours and LVL-NSH in 3 hours. I extended each to 4.5 hours.

Again, NSH-LVL-CIN is gonna be a very uncompetitive train.


----------



## Seaboard92

Actually if both trains Split it would be an interesting experiment. And I would love to see the times if both trains split. But that makes things more complicated.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Philly can you add my times on there as well?
> 
> 
> 
> This has both of my 3-C scenarios, your schedule, and two of Max's (through cars to my Cardinal and the day train). The 3-C route is on top followed by any other part of the same trains.
Click to expand...

OK. I like Max's basic scheme for a Cardinal schedule. It loses all western connections (without an overnight) and it loses the scenery in the New River Gorge.

But the top cities on the route are Chicago, Charlottesville, DC, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati, and it's significantly better for all of them. My presumption is that the Hoosier State would stay in place and go daily.

The key question here is of course how much connecting traffic the Cardinal actually has at Chicago, information which I do not have. If there's lots, the existing schedule is better.

I think none of the Cleveland-Columbus-Cincy options are plausible. all would require the capital investment of the original Ohio 3C plan, and if we can get that, we can get the original Ohio 3C plan, whcih is better. So I am ignoring them.

Philly's proposed "Broadway Limited via Dearborn" schedule looks pretty cool. It makes connections at Toledo to the LSL to upstate NY, whether the LSL is rescheduled as the PIP suggests (which it should be) or not. It provides the desirable "day train for Cleveland" and runs overnight from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg. The eastbound is, however, in Pittsburgh station at the same time as the westbound Capitol Limited, *and* it's in the commuter rush into NY, which really won't work.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> Philly's proposed "Broadway Limited via Dearborn" schedule looks pretty cool. It makes connections at Toledo to the LSL to upstate NY, whether the LSL is rescheduled as the PIP suggests (which it should be) or not. It provides the desirable "day train for Cleveland" and runs overnight from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg. The eastbound is, however, in Pittsburgh station at the same time as the westbound Capitol Limited, *and* it's in the commuter rush into NY, which really won't work.


Does PGH have only one track? If they do have two, they can't have one east and one west at the same time? Is there any double tracking on the route between CLE and PGH so the CL and LL can cross paths?

We're kind of limited between PGH and NYP eastbound. AAO had its "Three Rivers" arriving in NYP at 8:58am. I pushed my LL back to 9:28am to avoid NYP's rush hour. It is scheduled to arrive in Newark at 9:03am so it shouldn't be in the tunnels until after 9am. If the train gets into NYP before the rush hour it would get into PHL really really early. We could have the train arrive/leave PGH later but 12:15am is already kind of undesirable. Would a 12:30am departure from PGH with 9:43am into NYP be better both in PGH and NYP?

And would this train be profitable above the rails or close to breaking even?


----------



## Seaboard92

I can't speak for how many tracks PGH has. But I know the Pennsylvanian overnights in the station. So in that case there would be three trains in at one time.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> And would this train be profitable above the rails or close to breaking even?


Not at all sure. It's not an easy thing to project.
It's easy to project a daily Cardinal -- we have lots of experience with daily vs. three-a-week. We can naively multiply costs by (new # trainsets / old # trainsets), and historical evidence suggests we'll do better than that. We can naively multiply revenues by 7/3, and historical evidence suggests we'll do better than that.

With the Pennsy-Cap through cars, they have to increase ridership and revenue, and the costs were estimated to be tiny. Amtrak already did a study which estimated tiny incremental losses. It's easy to guess that on today's higher base level of ridership and higher average ticket yields, the revenues would exceed the costs.

With the Dearborn-Toledo connection, I need only look at all the passengers unhappily and grumpily taking the bus connection, and the passengers refusing to take the trip because of the bus connection, and figure they'll pay a lot more to take a train.

But figuring out breakeven for a whole new schedule? You have to do a lot more modeling. Guessing the costs isn't so bad. But guessing the ridership and revenue? Gravity model with city populations, discounts for bad calling hours, huge discounts for delays, bonuses for college towns, it gets complicated.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

There are 2 tracks at PGH and 3 disused. 3 platforms and 1 disused. This is from Wikipedia, and was pretty easy to search up.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Seaboard92!

Could you be kind enough to provide IND to STL (via Effingham) schedules if they exist? Thanks so much!


----------



## Seaboard92

Most of the CSX likes in Ohio are FRA class 4 track so 60 freight with a max of 80 passenger. Interesting things to factor in for anyone making timetables.


----------



## Seaboard92

And Max I need to figure out the milepost in those towns and I can get you a realistic schedule


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Well, assuming Amtrak mileposts

From May 1971,

Indianapolis IN 810

Terre Haute IN 882

Effingham IL 950

St Louis MO 1050

which turns into

Indianapolis IN 0

Terre Haute IN 72

Effingham IL 140

St Louis MO 240.

So 240 miles, which I estimated to be 7 hours, which is about 34 to 35 miles per hour.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Are we all in agreement now about this issue?

IND-STL will be put at 5 hours for now.


----------



## ScouseAndy

Could Amtrak not look at rerouting the SWC at Kansas away from Chicago (perhaps leaving a spur on the original route?) down to St Louis (replacing one of the Missouri River Runner Services so no additional slots required on this stretch) then from St Louis run to Washington via IND as a replacement of the Cardinal and thus giving Amtrak a true coast to coast service avoiding the need to change in Chicago which surely puts off a number of potential passengers??

Im assuming a LD can run at the same speed as the Missouri River Runner(??) so leaving the SWC times roughly alone between LA & KAN and the 5 hours running between IND-STL as above gives you the below if my maths is correct?

EB

DEPART KAN 8:15PM

DEPART STL 2:00PM

ARRIVE IND 8:00PM

ARRIVE CIN 11:15PM

ARRIVE WASH 3:20PM

WB

DEPART WASH 6:00PM

DEPART CIN 8:40AM

DEPART IND 1:00PM

DEPART STL 5:00PM

ARRIVE KAN 10:40PM

All stations west of KAN +1 hour compared to current timetable


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

ScouseAndy said:


> Could Amtrak not look at rerouting the SWC at Kansas away from Chicago (perhaps leaving a spur on the original route?) down to St Louis (replacing one of the Missouri River Runner Services so no additional slots required on this stretch) then from St Louis run to Washington via IND as a replacement of the Cardinal and thus giving Amtrak a true coast to coast service avoiding the need to change in Chicago which surely puts off a number of potential passengers??
> 
> Im assuming a LD can run at the same speed as the Missouri River Runner(??) so leaving the SWC times roughly alone between LA & KAN and the 5 hours running between IND-STL as above gives you the below if my maths is correct?
> 
> EB
> 
> DEPART KAN 8:15PM
> 
> DEPART STL 2:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE IND 8:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE CIN 11:15PM
> 
> ARRIVE WASH 3:20PM
> 
> WB
> 
> DEPART WASH 6:00PM
> 
> DEPART CIN 8:40AM
> 
> DEPART IND 1:00PM
> 
> DEPART STL 5:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE KAN 10:40PM
> 
> All stations west of KAN +1 hour compared to current timetable


So what happens to a passenger who wants to go from CHI to LAX? Take the SL/TE and spend an extra day traveling? The SWC is the fastest train from CHI to the West Coast and LAX is the most popular west coast destination to/from CHI. No way we want to reroute that train away from CHI.

I'd be in favor of rerouting the TE from STL to IND and to the East Coast if we could add through cars from KCY to SAS to the SWC to preserve CHI-Texas direct service. Or add through cars off the TE at STL to give the service you are proposing.


----------



## ScouseAndy

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ScouseAndy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could Amtrak not look at rerouting the SWC at Kansas away from Chicago (perhaps leaving a spur on the original route?) down to St Louis (replacing one of the Missouri River Runner Services so no additional slots required on this stretch) then from St Louis run to Washington via IND as a replacement of the Cardinal and thus giving Amtrak a true coast to coast service avoiding the need to change in Chicago which surely puts off a number of potential passengers??
> 
> Im assuming a LD can run at the same speed as the Missouri River Runner(??) so leaving the SWC times roughly alone between LA & KAN and the 5 hours running between IND-STL as above gives you the below if my maths is correct?
> 
> EB
> 
> DEPART KAN 8:15PM
> 
> DEPART STL 2:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE IND 8:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE CIN 11:15PM
> 
> ARRIVE WASH 3:20PM
> 
> WB
> 
> DEPART WASH 6:00PM
> 
> DEPART CIN 8:40AM
> 
> DEPART IND 1:00PM
> 
> DEPART STL 5:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE KAN 10:40PM
> 
> All stations west of KAN +1 hour compared to current timetable
> 
> 
> 
> So what happens to a passenger who wants to go from CHI to LAX? Take the SL/TE and spend an extra day traveling? The SWC is the fastest train from CHI to the West Coast and LAX is the most popular west coast destination to/from CHI. No way we want to reroute that train away from CHI.
> 
> I'd be in favor of rerouting the TE from STL to IND and to the East Coast if we could add through cars from KCY to SAS to the SWC to preserve CHI-Texas direct service. Or add through cars off the TE at STL to give the service you are proposing.
Click to expand...

When I suggested a spur line I was thinking on the lines of like the LSL where the train would split at kansas, with the suitable capacity allocated to each service.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

ScouseAndy said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ScouseAndy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could Amtrak not look at rerouting the SWC at Kansas away from Chicago (perhaps leaving a spur on the original route?) down to St Louis (replacing one of the Missouri River Runner Services so no additional slots required on this stretch) then from St Louis run to Washington via IND as a replacement of the Cardinal and thus giving Amtrak a true coast to coast service avoiding the need to change in Chicago which surely puts off a number of potential passengers??
> 
> Im assuming a LD can run at the same speed as the Missouri River Runner(??) so leaving the SWC times roughly alone between LA & KAN and the 5 hours running between IND-STL as above gives you the below if my maths is correct?
> 
> EB
> 
> DEPART KAN 8:15PM
> 
> DEPART STL 2:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE IND 8:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE CIN 11:15PM
> 
> ARRIVE WASH 3:20PM
> 
> WB
> 
> DEPART WASH 6:00PM
> 
> DEPART CIN 8:40AM
> 
> DEPART IND 1:00PM
> 
> DEPART STL 5:00PM
> 
> ARRIVE KAN 10:40PM
> 
> All stations west of KAN +1 hour compared to current timetable
> 
> 
> 
> So what happens to a passenger who wants to go from CHI to LAX? Take the SL/TE and spend an extra day traveling? The SWC is the fastest train from CHI to the West Coast and LAX is the most popular west coast destination to/from CHI. No way we want to reroute that train away from CHI.
> 
> I'd be in favor of rerouting the TE from STL to IND and to the East Coast if we could add through cars from KCY to SAS to the SWC to preserve CHI-Texas direct service. Or add through cars off the TE at STL to give the service you are proposing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I suggested a spur line I was thinking on the lines of like the LSL where the train would split at kansas, with the suitable capacity allocated to each service.
Click to expand...

Oh, I can see that. I am assuming you mean 8:15AM for Kansas City.


----------



## Eric S

Split at Kansas? Just somewhere in the state of Kansas?

Or split at Kansas City, MO?


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

(I'm assuming British or Australian) guy said there would be a spur (or split, I would say) from KCY-CHI.

LAX 555P

KCY 709A

KCY 758A

CHI 330P

KCY 745A

STL 125P/145P

IND 745P/759P

CIN 1127P/1137P

CVS 1110A/1119A

WAS 219P

NYP 558P

NYP 1245P

WAS 500P

CVS 743P/752P

CIN 731A/741A

IND 1115A/1145A

STL 345P/400P

KCY 940P

CHI 300P

KCY 1011P

KCY 1045P

LAX 815A

Still worried about Seaboard's comment on there being plenty of opportunities for delays from IND to STL.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Eric S said:


> Split at Kansas? Just somewhere in the state of Kansas?
> 
> Or split at Kansas City, MO?


Well, where would you split the train beside Kansas City MO?


----------



## Eric S

maxbuskirk said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Split at Kansas? Just somewhere in the state of Kansas?
> 
> Or split at Kansas City, MO?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, where would you split the train beside Kansas City MO?
Click to expand...

That's my point. The poster kept referring to "Kansas" and not "Kansas City" - they are not the same thing.


----------



## Palmetto

There was an brief blurb today from WLWT in Cincy [sorry, no link] that says the state DOT is going to spend 2.1 billion dollars in the state's transportation network. No mention of spending any of it on passenger rail. Not surprising. Roads, roads, roads. Oh, and bridges for the roads.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Palmetto said:


> There was an brief blurb today from WLWT in Cincy [sorry, no link] that says the state DOT is going to spend 2.1 billion dollars in the state's transportation network. No mention of spending any of it on passenger rail. Not surprising. Roads, roads, roads. Oh, and bridges for the roads.


http://www.wlwt.com/news/nearly-21-billion-to-be-invested-in-ohios-transportation-network/38752524


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Expected.


----------



## Palmetto

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was an brief blurb today from WLWT in Cincy [sorry, no link] that says the state DOT is going to spend 2.1 billion dollars in the state's transportation network. No mention of spending any of it on passenger rail. Not surprising. Roads, roads, roads. Oh, and bridges for the roads.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.wlwt.com/news/nearly-21-billion-to-be-invested-in-ohios-transportation-network/38752524
Click to expand...

Thank you!


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66254-phl-chi-route-options


----------



## jis

CSX is reported to be about to downgrade a significant part of what is supposed to be the 3C Corridor according to the following article from All Aboard Ohio:

http://allaboardohio.org/2016/04/13/one-fourth-of-3c-may-be-downgraded/

Incidentally there is a nice attached map showing CSX routes in Ohio and Indiana, Among other things it clearly shows the high grade route between Indy and St. Louis.

http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CSX-map-2010.jpg


----------



## jis

I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:

http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

That's 6 hours of travel time. Not sure if the tracks are that fast now, especially with the downgrading.


----------



## jphjaxfl

jis said:


> I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:
> 
> http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg


On New Year's Eve, 1970, I traveled on PC Train 15 from Columbus to Cleveland to board the Chicago to Boston and New York City no name train which also picked up cars from Detroit in Buffalo. I had a roomette from Cleveland to Albany since the Boston train was coach only with a snack bar. The train did have a dining car that went from Chicago to New York. I enjoyed breakfast on New Year's morning as we plowed through a snow storm. The Columbus-Cleveland train was 1 coach on the end of several baggage and mail cars.


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## Anderson

Sounds like they were basically timetabling a baggage/mail run rather than trying to actually accommodate pax.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:
> 
> http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg


So there were two separate trains, one CIN-Columbus and one Columbus-CLE? Makes no sense to me. Especially northbound (southbound you had a 20 minute window).

I don't see the point of an IND-CLE train (315/316) with no major cities in between and I don't really see a large market of passengers wanting to go between the two cities.

Complete map between the East Coast and Chicago/St. Louis: http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_1.jpg

There was a train called the Penn Texas (http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_2.jpg), westbound #3, eastbound #4 between NYP and STL via PGH, Columbus, and IND. Did that go through to Texas via another rail line or did you have to transfer in STL to another train? I would say that's still better than what what we have now though between the NEC and Texas. What was the main passenger rail line(s) that served Texas before Amtrak?


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## Seaboard92

The Penn Texas connected to the Missouri Pacific, Frisco, and KATY trains that ran from St Louis to Texas. While the train itself the Penn Texas terminates in St Louis it might have had thru cars


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## jphjaxfl

Seaboard92 said:


> The Penn Texas connected to the Missouri Pacific, Frisco, and KATY trains that ran from St Louis to Texas. While the train itself the Penn Texas terminates in St Louis it might have had thru cars


The Pennsylvania's Penn Texas did, indeed, have through Sleeping Cars which were switched in St. Louis to the two major rail lines that ran from St. Louis to Texas. The Missouri Pacific operated the Texas Eagle in 2 sections(sometimes 3). The South Texas Eagle #1 departed St. Louis at 5:30PM for Little Rock, Texarkana, Longview, Palestine, Austin, San Antonio, Loredo, Nuevo Loredo, Monterey and Mexico City. The Houston section #31 broke off of the main train at Palestine with through cars to Houston and Galveston. The West Texas Eagle #21 departed St. Louis at 5:35PM following the same route as #1 to Longview and then west to Dallas, Fort Worth, Big Spring and El Paso with through cars via the Southern Pacific to Tuscan, Phoenix and Los Angeles. The Penn Texas carried through Sleeping Cars from New York to the Texas Eagle destinations of San Antonio, Houston and Fort Worth. The Penn Texas also carried through Sleeping Cars from the Penn Texas to Texas points via the Texas Special which departed St. Louis on the Frisco Railroad and switched to the KATY in Oklahoma. There were through cars to Dallas and Houston. New York Central and B&O Railroad also carried through Sleeping Cars from New York and Washington via St. Louis to the major Texas cities. Some of the cars were even painted in MoPac or Frisco/KATY colors. There were many rail lines with passenger service in Texas as late as the early 1960s.


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## jphjaxfl

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:
> 
> http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> So there were two separate trains, one CIN-Columbus and one Columbus-CLE? Makes no sense to me. Especially northbound (southbound you had a 20 minute window). These were what was left of long distance trains that had been cut back. The Cleveland-Columbus was what was left of New York Central's Ohio State Limited. The Columbus - Cincinnati train was the what was left of Pennsylvania's Cincinnati Limited. That's the way the private railroads chased off passengers by cutting back trains except in some cases they had mail contracts they had to honor.
> 
> I don't see the point of an IND-CLE train (315/316) with no major cities in between and I don't really see a large market of passengers wanting to go between the two cities.
> 
> Complete map between the East Coast and Chicago/St. Louis: http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_1.jpg
> 
> There was a train called the Penn Texas (http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_2.jpg), westbound #3, eastbound #4 between NYP and STL via PGH, Columbus, and IND. Did that go through to Texas via another rail line or did you have to transfer in STL to another train? I would say that's still better than what what we have now though between the NEC and Texas. What was the main passenger rail line(s) that served Texas before Amtrak?
Click to expand...


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## FormerOBS

The PRR's Penn Texas, numbers 3 westbound and 4 eastbound, ran between New York and St. Louis, and carried through sleeping cars to and from points in the Southwest. It was the successor to the earlier Sunshine Special, and began operating under the Texas Eagle name July 7, 1946. From July 7, 1946 until April 25, 1948 the Texas Eagle ran through from New York to Dallas, with through sleepers that continued via connections via trains to (at various times) Oklahoma City, Mexico City, Houston, El Paso, and San Antonio. As of April 25, 1948, the operation was changed so that the PRR operated the train between New York and St. Louis, with the cars being forwarded west of St. Louis on other carriers.

On December 12, 1948, the name of the PRR train was changed to The Penn Texas. Specifically, most sleepers went via Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific on the Texas Eagle. One through Houston car actually came out of Washington. One car was operated to Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio on the joint Texas Special, operated by the St. Louis - San Francisco (Frisco) and Missouri - Kansas - Texas (Katy). The Penn Texas must have been quite a sight, with its mixture of Tuscan Red cars from the PRR, blue and cream cars from the MoPac/T&P, and bright red and stainless cars from the Texas Special. Over the years, service reductions meant the elimination of these various through sleeper services. The Texas Special car was dropped in 1958, and the last of the MoPac/T&P cars on the Texas routes were discontinued in 1961. Even though the through sleepers were discontinued in 1961, the train continued to operate over the PRR (later PC) with The Penn Texas name between New York and St. Louis until June, 1970.

NYC had through cars from New York, and B&O had through service from Washington to Texas points, but not as many through cars as the PRR.

For the most part, sleepers in this service included 10 roomette 5 bedroom cars (10-5), 10 roomette 6 bedroom cars (10-6), and 14 roomette 4 bedroom cars (14-4).


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## jphjaxfl

FormerOBS said:


> The PRR's Penn Texas, numbers 3 westbound and 4 eastbound, ran between New York and St. Louis, and carried through sleeping cars to and from points in the Southwest. It was the successor to the earlier Sunshine Special, and began operating under the Texas Eagle name July 7, 1946. From July 7, 1946 until April 25, 1948 the Texas Eagle ran through from New York to Dallas, with through sleepers that continued via connections via trains to (at various times) Oklahoma City, Mexico City, Houston, El Paso, and San Antonio. As of April 25, 1948, the operation was changed so that the PRR operated the train between New York and St. Louis, with the cars being forwarded west of St. Louis on other carriers.
> 
> On December 12, 1948, the name of the PRR train was changed to The Penn Texas. Specifically, most sleepers went via Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific on the Texas Eagle. One through Houston car actually came out of Washington. One car was operated to Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio on the joint Texas Special, operated by the St. Louis - San Francisco (Frisco) and Missouri - Kansas - Texas (Katy). The Penn Texas must have been quite a sight, with its mixture of Tuscan Red cars from the PRR, blue and cream cars from the MoPac/T&P, and bright red and stainless cars from the Texas Special. Over the years, service reductions meant the elimination of these various through sleeper services. The Texas Special car was dropped in 1958, and the last of the MoPac/T&P cars on the Texas routes were discontinued in 1961. Even though the through sleepers were discontinued in 1961, the train continued to operate over the PRR (later PC) with The Penn Texas name between New York and St. Louis until June, 1970.
> 
> NYC had through cars from New York, and B&O had through service from Washington to Texas points, but not as many through cars as the PRR.
> 
> For the most part, sleepers in this service included 10 roomette 5 bedroom cars (10-5), 10 roomette 6 bedroom cars (10-6), and 14 roomette 4 bedroom cars (14-4).


The through B&O Slumbercoach from Baltimore to Fort Worth via the National Limited and Texas Eagle lasted until 1963-1964. It was the only Slumbercoach that operated on the MoPac and it a special stainless steel car that may have been built for the route. I rode the MoPac trains between Little Rock and and St. Louis a lot during the early 60s as a teenager when I was growing up in Hot Springs, AR and remember seeing the Slumbercoach in the Eagle Consist.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

The old Penn Central schedules could be a nice model of "improved Ohio schedules".

By 1968, 3-C was pretty dead and really was two separate trains. It was convenient to go from either Cleveland or Cincinnati to Columbus but not from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

The James Whitcomb Riley between Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati had a good schedule (morning westbound and evening eastbound). It was nothing like today's Indy-Cincy train.

There was also a Cincinnati Limited both directions from Cincy to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philly (North Philly), and New York. It looks like westbound it was the same train as the Spirit of St. Louis and eastbound the same train as the Penn Texas, both trains between St. Louis and Philly/New York. The times for the Cincinnati branches were eastbound 3:25pm to 8:15am in New York with return times 4:05pm in New York to 8:50am in Cincinnati.

Columbus was served east/west by both the Penn Texas and the Spirit of St. Louis which were pretty close to each other in schedule.

As for Cleveland it looks like they had the 64 eastbound from Chicago to New York via Cleveland and Buffalo, leaving the Windy City at 8:30am and arriving in the Big Apple (Grand Central) the next morning at 7:10am and the 63 westbound leaving New York at 10:30pm and arriving in Chicago at 6:50pm. Upstate New York (Syracuse and Albany) were stuck in the graveyard shift both ways with the 63 hitting Buffalo at 8:25am and the 64 stopping there at 9:20pm, allowing for overnight service between New York and Buffalo both ways. There is also a 71 from New York to Buffalo and a 51 from Buffalo to Chicago (I assume a transfer in Buffalo is required) and 98 from Chicago to Buffalo and 74 from Buffalo to New York (none of these trains had names listed).


I'm not sure I miss direct trains from the NEC to St. Louis. It does give you a transfer in St. Louis as opposed to Chicago but if you have a train from Chicago to Texas there is almost no difference in time going via Chicago vs. going via St. Louis and you'd probably spend more time waiting in St. Louis. The old National Limited went to Kansas City where it allowed a transfer to the Southwest Limited/Chief but it doesn't save you much time going to the west coast and I also don't really have much interest in going direct to Kansas City either.

But they could always have rerouted the Spirit of St. Louis/Penn Texas (obviously changing the names) from Indy to St. Louis to Indy to Chicago using the James Whitcomb Riley train. Or to serve Columbus and Cincinnati do the Cincinnati Limited and then the James Whitcomb Riley from Cincinnati to Chicago (the line would be identical but detouring to serve Cincinnati). Either route would serve Indy and Columbus as well as Pittsburgh/Philadelphia (30th St. as opposed to North Philly). Losing Columbus was IMHO a big loss to Amtrak. Columbus's population was much higher today than it was in the 70's/80's. And Cincinnati had it much better back then than today.

From 1968, I would probably use the Cincinnati Limited-James Whitcomb Riley to get both Columbus and Cincinnati along with one of the Broadway Limited/Pennsylvania Limited/Manhattan Limited and the 63/64 (predecessor to LSL). Yes, Pittsburgh to Philly gets two trains but I'd send one to New Jersey/New York and one to Baltimore/Washington. All three major Ohio cities would get a Chicago-East Coast train (Columbus and Cincinnati's get the same one). I'd probably schedule the Cincinnati Limited to New York and the Broadway to Baltimore/DC. Then you can schedule the Cincinnati/Columbus train to not be a western transfer train and serve Cincinnati and Columbus outside the graveyard shift (New York can take the LSL and Philly/Pittsburgh can take the BL to transfer west in Chicago). Assuming only one upstate New York train Cleveland looks like it would be stuck in the graveyard shift. But two out of three Ohio cities (Cincinnati and Columbus) outside the graveyard shift isn't bad.

Yes things were much better for Ohio before A-Day.

Columbus was served east/west by both the Penn Texas and the Spirit of St. Louis which were pretty close to each other in schedule.


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## west point

To solve many of the state supported problems why not do this ?

1. 1st get enough additional equipment built. That may be a difficult effort.

2. Initiate a new Florida train Detroit - Toledo - Columbus - Cincinnati ( route to be determined ) - Atlanta ( either and/ or by Knoxville, Chattanooga ) - JAX - MIA.

3. For time being provide some kind of connection from Cleveland - Toledo.

4. This probably will leave Akron out in cold but something better than nothing.

5. This train would probably leave Detroit & Cincinnati at dusk so it still does not solve problem of daytime services

6. Still needs the Howell Interlocking and ATL station problems solved.


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## Seaboard92

Well one reason so many trains went to St Louis in the streamliner era was because it really was the secondary hub. And the reason the Penn Central schedules weren't timed well for CIN-CLE travel is because they were aggressively trying to get rid of trains system wide.

And I am afraid we can't return the ex PRR or EX NYC routes from CIN-CHI because they are either severely downgraded or abandoned. And if you look at the route of the Cardinal in the Amtrak era you can see the route was moved multiple times due to poor Penn Central track conditions.

And there are more options other then the three C route ex NYC in Ohio that would be good for expansion of service. The ex B&O from CIN to DET via TOL would be a good candidate. The B&O had a fairly large footprint in Ohio.

The largest railroad in Ohio passenger service historically.

1. New York Central

2. Pennsylvania Railroad

3. Baltimore&Ohio

4. Nickel Plate Road

5. Erie


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## FormerOBS

Seaboard 92:

You could add N&W and C&O to your list, plus one or two more, such as Wabash. But you are right. You've named the most important ones, and the order of importance is probably about right.


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## Seaboard92

FormerOBS said:


> Seaboard 92:
> 
> You could add N&W and C&O to your list, plus one or two more, such as Wabash. But you are right. You've named the most important ones, and the order of importance is probably about right.


I left those two out just because they really only went to Cincinnati and the. Into Kentucky and West Virginia. I mean eventually via merger the N&W took over the Nickel Plate Road and Wabash so it could count somewhat. And the C&O/B&O thing. 
Correct me if I'm wrong didn't the Wabash run most of their varnish from Michigan to St Louis via Indiana though? I can't remember if they had any real passenger trains in Ohio.


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## FormerOBS

The old Wabash Cannonball made a stop in Montpelier, Ohio, way up in the NW corner of the State. Except for that, it remained in Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois on its run between Detroit and St. Louis.

Way before Amtrak, the N&W ran into Columbus from the South, and C&O ran from Kenova to Detroit, via Columbus and Toledo. If Columbus is ever going to get service to the East, maybe it could be by resurrecting that route and connecting to the Cardinal.

Tom


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## Anderson

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:
> 
> http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> So there were two separate trains, one CIN-Columbus and one Columbus-CLE? Makes no sense to me. Especially northbound (southbound you had a 20 minute window).
> 
> I don't see the point of an IND-CLE train (315/316) with no major cities in between and I don't really see a large market of passengers wanting to go between the two cities.
> 
> Complete map between the East Coast and Chicago/St. Louis: http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_1.jpg
> 
> There was a train called the Penn Texas (http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_2.jpg), westbound #3, eastbound #4 between NYP and STL via PGH, Columbus, and IND. Did that go through to Texas via another rail line or did you have to transfer in STL to another train? I would say that's still better than what what we have now though between the NEC and Texas. What was the main passenger rail line(s) that served Texas before Amtrak?
Click to expand...

One thing that stands out: My "New York Nightmare" timetable is _painfully_ close to 63's card in there (if the Toronto train connected to 63). I really think the old 63/64 there is the "missing train" we all want for the LSL route (and that I'd want for NYP-MTR as well...it just times out too well not to want it).


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