# Idea for alternate NEC routings



## E60JPC (Jun 4, 2016)

Does anyone know if Amtrak ever considered these ideas? If not, would they be feasible?

1. Divert NYC/DC NE Regionals from NY Penn Station to Hoboken, NJ via NJT's Waterfront Connection. There are currently 8-9 roundtrips weekdays and 4-5 on weekends. Could 5 of the weekday and 3 of the weekend NE Regional roundtrips run Hoboken to Washington? This could act as a "safety valve" relieving some of the traffic through the Hudson River tunnels until the Gateway tunnels are someday operational.

2. Divert NYC/Harrisburg Keystones over an alternate route between Hoboken, NJ to Harrisburg. There are currently 9-10 weekday roundtrips and 6 weekend roundtrips. Could 5 of the weekday and 3 of the weekend roundtrips be diverted as above for the NE Regionals, thus further reducing trans-tunnel traffic to/from Penn Station. This option would come with a re-route though. Hoboken, NJ to Newark via the NJT Waterfront Connection & NEC, Newark to Bound Brook, NJ via NJT's Raritan Valley line, Bound Brook, NJ to West Trenton, NJ via the old Reading Lines route (now CSX), West Trenton to Philadelphia via SEPTA's West Trenton line to 30th Street Station (upper level), then west on the present day Keystone route to Harrisburg.

WB trains would run with a diesel locomotive on the rear of the train, facing towards Hoboken, then switch to an electric locomotive on the front of the train the rest of the way to Harrisburg. EB trains would run cab car forward with the electric locomotive at the rear Harrisburg to West Trenton, then exchange for a diesel locomotive on the front of the train from West Trenton to Hoboken.

On this route, Hoboken would replace NYC, Bound Brook would replace Metropark, Belle Mead would replace New Brunswick, Hopewell would replace Princeton Jct., West Trenton would replace Trenton, Jenkintown-Wyncote would replace Cornwells Heights, Temple University would replace North Philadelphia and Suburban Station would return to the Amtrak map. Newark Penn Station would continue to be served by both Keystone routes. Furthermore, Bound Brook, NJ would be a much more convenient place for NJT Raritan Valley passengers to transfer to Keystone's than going all the way into Newark. Jenkintown-Wyncote would be a convenient place for Lansdale-Doylestown, Warminster, and West Trenton SEPTA commuters to transfer to Keystones. And Temple University would be a more convenient place for SEPTA Chestnut Hill and Norristown line commuters to change to Keystones.

3. Originating/terminating Acela Express trains at Philadelphia Suburban Station. There are 4 stub-end tracks serving Suburban Station which don't get that much use as most SEPTA trains are run-throughs to Jefferson Station and beyond. There are at least 6 weekday NYC/DC roundtrips, 8 BOS/DC weekday roundtrips, 2 NYC/DC Sa roundtrips, 2 BOS/DC Sa roundtrips, 3 NYC/DC Su roundtrips, and 1 BOS/DC Su roundtrip. Would it be possible to replace 1 daily NYC/DC roundtrip with a NYC/PHS roundtrip, replace 1 daily NYC/DC roundtrip with a PHS/DC roundtrip, replace 1 daily BOS/DC roundtrip with a BOS/PHS roundtrip, replace 1 PHS/Harrisburg Keystone with an Acela Express, replace 1 NYC/DC roundtrip with a NYC/Harrisburg roundtrip via the NY-PGH subway and North Philadelphia station, and 1 daily NYC/DC roundtrip with a DC/Harrisburg roundtrip via 30th Street Station?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 4, 2016)

Some variety would be nice but I doubt Amtrak will consider reroutes over any routes in or near the NEC on tracks they don't own. Why would they? Why pay for usage fees and track rights when you don't have to?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 4, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Some variety would be nice but I doubt Amtrak will consider reroutes over any routes in or near the NEC on tracks they don't own. Why would they? Why pay for usage fees and track rights when you don't have to?


To add on the Philly Amtrak Fan's comment about fees and usage, why would the OP expect Amtrak to divert riders away from its busiest passenger station in the system and force them to transfer to get to where they obviously want to go (hence the congestion.)

Additionally, why would Amtrak want to tote around a diesel and create an engine change for HAR service, when Pennsylvania and Amtrak spent an enormous amount of money to speed up the Harrisburg-NYP schedule to create a one seat ride?

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD and even though you could physically do most of what the OP system wants, doesn't mean these ideas aren't ludicrous and unnecessary. You can put a diesel on the Acela and send it to Spokane, Washington if you want to.

I'd like an answer as to why the OP even thinks this is a good idea and what compelling reasons exists before I address (pick apart) the logistics.


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## west point (Jun 4, 2016)

This plan could be an option if one of the North river bores is closed before the Gateway bores are open ?


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## CCC1007 (Jun 4, 2016)

west point said:


> This plan could be an option if one of the North river bores is closed before the Gateway bores are open ?


The solution for this is to reduce NJT because the commuters CAN use a ferry to do last mile, and NJT doesn't own the tracks to NYP.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 4, 2016)

west point said:


> This plan could be an option if one of the North river bores is closed before the Gateway bores are open ?


Again....why? Why not just...you know...divert a bunch of NJT trains to THEIR terminal in Hoboken to make room? Why do you need to send trains OFF the high speed NEC that has parts of it being upgraded to accommodate 150 mph operation to joyride down a freight line?

Why go to Suburban Street station, a station Amtrak used to service and they gave the associated route to SEPTA some years ago to save space in the tunnels?

Even in a dramatic emergency, I can barely see Hoboken for Keystones, but the rest isn't adding up.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 4, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> west point said:
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What service out of Suburban did Amtrak give to SEPTA?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 4, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


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I didn't say they gave the service to Septa. I said they gave (or more likely sold I suppose) the associated route to Septa.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 5, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


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What route?


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## jis (Jun 5, 2016)

I can't find any evidence that they gave any route to SEPTA. They just stopped running to Penn Center station and terminated their Harrisburg service at 30th St. instead. That was the genesis of the travel to Suburban Station using an Amtrak ticket arriving in or departing from 30th St. station. One could I suppose interpret that as giving the 30th St. - Suburban Station service to SEPTA, but it was just short bit of the through service from Harrisburg. The rest was never Amtrak. It went straight from PC/Conrail to SEPTA.

Of course I am happy to be corrected.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 5, 2016)

Another possible for this mystery route, and one that is associated with this topic, is the former Reading/Jersey Central service between Philadelphia and New York via West Trenton, Bound Brook, Jersey City and ferry to Lower Manhattan (until terminus move to Newark). However, that route:


Was never in Amtrak (no Reading passenger services were deemed "intercity," thus none entered Amtrak);
Originated at Reading Terminal, not Suburban Station, and was discontinued with the opening of the Center City Commuter Connection, and;
Never served Penn Station New York, thus no North River tunnel slots were involved (in the early days served the CRRNJ terminal in Jersey City, in later days Newark Penn).
The old Reading trains to New York (via ferry) had a loyal following, particularly in eastern Montgomery County, PA. The two trains, the Crusader and the Wall Street, stopped at Jenkintown making those especially convenient trains for those living in that area. That convenience was slowly eroded by the terminus move to Newark (and PATH), the downgrade of equipment from pretty nice trainsets with food and beverage options (and true observation cars) to RDC's, trips times from Reading Terminal stretching out to nearly two hours, then finally SEPTA dropping the through service requiring a change of trains at West Trenton to a once-a-day NJ Transit train. The death by a thousand cuts succeeded, and service east of West Trenton was dropped in 1982.


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## Hal (Jun 5, 2016)

jis said:


> I can't find any evidence that they gave any route to SEPTA. They just stopped running to Penn Center station and terminated their Harrisburg service at 30th St. instead. That was the genesis of the travel to Suburban Station using an Amtrak ticket arriving in or departing from 30th St. station. One could I suppose interpret that as giving the 30th St. - Suburban Station service to SEPTA, but it was just short bit of the through service from Harrisburg. The rest was never Amtrak. It went straight from PC/Conrail to SEPTA.
> 
> Of course I am happy to be corrected.


Harrisburg trains ran to North Philadelphia, not 30th St station and stopped at Suburban. After they were connected to 30th St the stops at Suburban Station were eventually ended.

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## jis (Jun 5, 2016)

Hal said:


> jis said:
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> > I can't find any evidence that they gave any route to SEPTA. They just stopped running to Penn Center station and terminated their Harrisburg service at 30th St. instead. That was the genesis of the travel to Suburban Station using an Amtrak ticket arriving in or departing from 30th St. station. One could I suppose interpret that as giving the 30th St. - Suburban Station service to SEPTA, but it was just short bit of the through service from Harrisburg. The rest was never Amtrak. It went straight from PC/Conrail to SEPTA.
> ...


I present the following timetable page from the July 1971 timetable countering your statement excerpted above:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710712r&item=0015

According to it Harrisburg trains ran to Penn Center Station (today's Suburban Station) via 30th St. Only the Duquesne and the Broadway Limited (which were the two beyond Harrisburg trains eastern O/T New York) ran via North Philadelphia (New York Subway) to New York, bypassing 30th Street.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 5, 2016)

The small number of trains between Harrisburg and New York that ran via the Pittsburgh Tunnel (Zoo) made their only Philadelphia stop at North Philly.

The Harrisburg trains that operated to and from Suburban Station were, at least for much of the time, actually run by SEPTA (then with Conrail) for Amtrak using Silverliner EMU commuter cars. I had the "pleasure" to ride those on numerous occasions in my PennDOT days when I had a central office meeting in "The 'Burg." My office was in downtown Philly, the T&S Building (then PennDOT HQ) was an easy walk from Harrisburg station, so it was a no-brainer.

Those who are riding the AEM7 farewell train will have the pleasure experiencing the Pittsburgh Tunnel during the wye movement. Now, if they would run the train up to Cynwyd just for old times sake, that might entice me to ride.


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## Hal (Jun 5, 2016)

jis said:


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Should have said ended at North Philadelphia and Broadway Limited was what I was thinking about too, but it was after they extended the Harrisburg trains beyond North Philadelphia that they stopped the stop at Suburban.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 5, 2016)

The only Amtrak trains that ever called at Suburban Station were Harrisburg trains, and all terminated at there. Trains operating between Harrisburg and New York (including the Broadway) either ran to 30th Street (and changed ends) or ran via the tunnel at Zoo with the only Philadelphia stop being North Philly. The Broadway never called at Suburban.


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## jis (Jun 5, 2016)

Hal said:


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That still doesn't make any sense to me in the light of the timetables I am seeing. So we are mis-communicating somewhere.

Which trains terminated at North Philadelphia? Certainly the Duquesne or the Broadway did not, and all of the other trains from Harrisburg went to 30th St. and then on to Suburban Station. They did not go to North Philadelphia after A-Day at least. And as PRR says they were most likely SEPTA trains carrying Amtrak passengers back then Or actually perhaps Penn Central trains funded by PennDOT or some such. I don;t know the details off the top of my head.


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## Hal (Jun 5, 2016)

jis said:


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Misread an old Amtrak schedule that had connecting trains and the Broadway with the Broadway stopping at North Philadelphia and not 30 th. The Harrisburg trains ended at Suburban. Sometime after they extended the Harrisburg trains to New York they eliminated Suburban.

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## jis (Jun 5, 2016)

Now we are on the same page! Thanks! I was wondering if I was somehow losing my mind


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 5, 2016)

****pulls out an old bulletin order for Jis and PRR60 and paraphrases since I'm not typing the whole thing**



> Effective 12:01am, Monday, June 8th, 2009.
> 
> Amtrak gave control of the route governing movements through Zoo to the upper level of 30th station to Septa. Amtrak no longer controls 2 or 3 Suburban tracks, 2 or 3 Harrisburg at Mount Vernon, the Mount Vernon Section of Zoo interlocking, the 36th street tunnel, or the portion of the Rundown track that has been reassigned to SEPTA and is now named Kay Interlocking (the area formerly known as the K ladder at ZOO.) Amtrak will control the Rundown track from a signal located on 34 Street OHB to Penn Coach Yard.
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> The Portion of the ML PHL-HAR from KAY to 30th is now controlled by Septa Section 5 Train Dispatcher.


I can go on typing this two page bulletin, but the bottom line is Amtrak used to control movements through Zoo interlocking, which included the Mount Vernon section, the 36th Street tunnel and 2 and 3 Harrisburg. This effectively allowed Amtrak to control movements into the upper level of 30th and into/out of Powellton Yard from the NYP line and the PH Line.

Amtrak forked it over to Septa since they no longer use the upper level.

Even though this is off topic, the mileposts from PHL-HAR were measured from Suburban Station to Harrisburg since the HAR train used to originate there. Earlier this year, Amtrak abolished the line formerly known as the 36st connection, which led from the lower level of 30th street to ZOO. From there, you could continue to HAR or NYP. It has been incorporated into the PH line and the mile posts are now measured from the lower level of PHL instead of Suburban Station. This effectively eliminated the final link to the old route.


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## jis (Jun 5, 2016)

All your typing is unnecessary since at least I don't disagree with you. I was talking of trains not track segments. Sorry.


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## Anderson (Jun 6, 2016)

Reading over this, the most compelling arguable point for this is slotting issues with the tunnels (e.g. God help us if we drop even _one_ of the extant tubes). Now, I do _not _have information on peak-hour load factors PHL-NYP and I know ridership has been flat-ish for a while, but IIRC there's very little room to expand service even in the face of substantial-unmet-demand-at-a-reasonable-price (and bear in mind that in spite of claims about wanting Amtrak to make money if the E-bucket [the "discount advance purchase" one] WAS-NYP winds up at $99 next week there would be howls of complaint). I also suspect there would be enough demand to support such service at some level of frequency as well (even if it was on par with a more modest corridor's demand levels).

Really, this isn't practical at the moment; however, if the dual-mode locos Virginia wants to acquire ever do come to pass it might make sense (VA is _very_ keen to get rid of the locomotive change at WAS...doing so would probably cut 20 minutes from most or all trips past DC) since you could also run those locomotives along the same lines.

By the way, remind me...the upper tracks at 30th Street run through. Do the Main Line SEPTA trains use the upper level or the lower level (as a rule)?


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jun 6, 2016)

And here I was thinking this was going to be about an alternate routing inland to add robustness to the NEC in the event of, god forbid, such events are massive blackouts or storm surges somewhere along the route.


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## Hal (Jun 6, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> And here I was thinking this was going to be about an alternate routing inland to add robustness to the NEC in the event of, god forbid, such events are massive blackouts or storm surges somewhere along the route.


The Hoboken route proposals probably were a joke. That was too goofy. Harrisburg to Suburban station was almost as goofy.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jun 6, 2016)

Hal said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
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Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?


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## CCC1007 (Jun 6, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


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Not really that I'm aware of, and that doesn't just go for Amtrak but also for road traffic to have a reasonable detour. The only way I can think of to logically detour is by ferry service or air service!


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## jis (Jun 6, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?


Alternate route from where to where?

There certainly are alternate road and freight railroad routes from Boston to Washington DC. They are not the shortest or most convenient. But they are there and quite usable too. The rail freight route bypasses Connecticut, downstate New York and New Jersey entirely, and runs through upstate New York and Pennsylvania.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 6, 2016)

Anderson said:


> By the way, remind me...the upper tracks at 30th Street run through. Do the Main Line SEPTA trains use the upper level or the lower level (as a rule)?


In general, SEPTA uses the upper level and Amtrak uses the lower level.



CCC1007 said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
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It depends on where the train is coming from and where it is attempting to go, Theoretically, most trains from south of WAS could bypass it, use CSX and Conrail from WAS to New Jersey, go up the River Line from Oak Island in New Jersey to Selkirk, where they can make their way to BOSTON and double back to STAMFORD. That would bypass the NEC, but I'd hardly call that reasonable.


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## west point (Jun 6, 2016)

There are possible solutions for some relief if one of the bores is down for a lengthy ( 1 - 3 + years ) closure. But none of them are very doable without a large increase of personnel by Amtrak. Coordination would be important.

1. Combine all single level trains to run as 16 - 17 car trains. That would require passengers to walk thru trains <> east side of trains. trains would hang into approaches of east river tunnels. Ideally two trains would leave Sunnyside or one would follow regional from Boston. The 2nd trains would combine at NYP with MU and brake check done by many car men.

2. Then as NJT & combined train arrives on an adjacent from Newark then southbound train leaves and NJT follows to Newark.

3. AT Newark Penn station southbound (west) trains would split so trains could continue to meet station platform restraints farther toward WASH.

4. Platforms at Newark would need rebuilding on west end that are at present not useable.

5. All this maneuvering at NYP and Newark would require many agents and car men on duty at those stations.. As well NYP terminations would have to have SSY do all servicing of rolling stock.

7. Since the combining of Acelas has never been tried that may be impossible but maybe breaking up some Acelas and adding cars to others might work but that would definitely reduce number of Acela trains operated. Maybe some could originate at Newark ?.

Would this ever be implemented if a tube shuts down ? Highly doubt it.


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## Hal (Jun 6, 2016)

west point said:


> Would this ever be implemented if a tube shuts down ? Highly doubt it.


If the tubes shut down they would have passengers get off in Newark and take the Path to Manhattan.

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## Palmetto (Jun 7, 2016)

That's a plan, but I'd be interested to know what kind of equipment PATH has to handle a trainloads of passengers arriving every 2-3 minutes at Newark Penn. I personally think the system would be overwhelmed.


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## Hal (Jun 7, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> That's a plan, but I'd be interested to know what kind of equipment PATH has to handle a trainloads of passengers arriving every 2-3 minutes at Newark Penn. I personally think the system would be overwhelmed.


Trains don't arrive at Newark every 2 to 3 minutes. 
No doubt though Amtrak and NJT would run an abbreviated schedule since their equipment would have to be turned there.

If one or both tubes go down service is going to suck big time. No doubt about that.

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## jis (Jun 7, 2016)

Amtrak typically does not do more than 4tph except in unusual hours into New York from the South. If trains are terminated that will be curtailed. Amtrak and NJT will have to decide whether it is worth running Amtrak LD trains to NYP or an additional NJT commuter run.

One tube out means basically restricted to 8tph in each direction between Secaucus and New York. Amtrak could run a significant proportion of its service given that it does not run that much anyway. NJT will be screwed. They will most likely run a weekend like schedule to New York and divert balance of M&E trains to Hoboken, and possibly some NJCL trains also to Hoboken. Some trains will be turned in Newark, and possibly a few in Secaucus.

Roughly speaking on an average NJT will be able to run some 4 to 6 trains into and out of New York in a given hour depending on what Amtrak has for that hour. That could be a mix of say 2 or 3 NEC trains, 1 MTD and one NJCL, somewhat like on weekends.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 7, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


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There is a reasonable road detour from WAS to BOS: I-83 north from Baltimore to Harrisburg, I-81 to Scranton, I-84 through Hartford to the Mass Pike, and then the Mass Pike (I-90) into Boston. I do it quite often when going to northern New England in order to avoid the New York traffic and the rather hefty tolls on I-95.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jun 7, 2016)

One wonders why only two tubes were built in the first place? I assume the assumption was that commuter traffic would be via ferry and that it wouldn't grow that much from New Jersey? (wasn't some of the intercity traffic moved by rail ferries and barges as well?)


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## CCC1007 (Jun 7, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> One wonders why only two tubes were built in the first place? I assume the assumption was that commuter traffic would be via ferry and that it wouldn't grow that much from New Jersey? (wasn't some of the intercity traffic moved by rail ferries and barges as well?)


I don't think that the designers were planning for 500+ trains every day on the line, so they didn't design for it.


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## jis (Jun 7, 2016)

Most of the commuter trains that now try to jam into Penn Station went to Jersey City/Exchange Place back then. If you remove most of the commuter traffic, even today there would be relatively little traffic running through those tunnels.


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## Palmetto (Jun 8, 2016)

Hal said: _Trains don't arrive at Newark every 2 to 3 minutes._

Okay. Perhaps a little overstated, but here's the arrival lineup during the 7:30-8:00 AM arrival period, and it was the weekday morning rush hour that I had in mind.

7:34

7:37

7:40

7:40

7:44

7:48

7:50

7:54

7:55

7:57

8:00

That would be an arrival on average of every three minutes, if my math is correct.


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## jis (Jun 8, 2016)

Hal was talking about Amtrak trains. You are talking about NJT trains + Amtrak trains. Amtrak has to worry only about handling Amtrak trains, not NJT trains.

My surmise is that if only one tunnel is out it is NJT that will take most of he hit. Amtrak will still be able to run most of its train into NYP with some schedule adjustments.

In that situation NJT will turn many trains at Newark, and some possibly even at Secaucus with PATH cross honoring NJT tickets in place. They will be able to run about 4 or 5 tph into NYP. Those will all be NEC or NJCL trains. The M&E trains will all go to Hoboken in that situation. A few NEC/NJCL trains might also go to Hoboken but not all or even a majority, specially during rush hours, when Hoboken isn't exactly uncongested either. I am almost certain that nothing Amtrak will go to Hoboken. If necessary some will turn at Newark, or even at Philly.

Also NJT will have many canceled or combined trains using longer consists than usual.


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## Palmetto (Jun 8, 2016)

Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.

Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed. On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?


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## jis (Jun 8, 2016)

The weekend timetables are designed around one tunnel out. There are some free slots on weekends and some will be freed by moving MTDs to Hoboken. They will have to move schedules around on weekdyas some because the 8 trains in each direction has to be fleeted together. Roughly speaking the tunnel is scheduled 20 mins inbound, 10 min transition, 20 minutes outbound and then ten minutes transition back, for each hour.

Anything that does not fit within those 8tph have to get canceled, turned around or done something else with.

They could relieve loads on PATH by turning some trains at Secaucus and adding shuttles between Secaucus and Hoboken.

They could institute working hours staggering in Manhattan thus reducing peak load demands during commission hours.

They could run additional buses with street dropoff and pickup in Manhattan,

There are a lot of things that can be done besides trying to stuff everyone into PATH at Newark.

Remember, NJT trains overall carry far fewer commuters into Manhattan than NJT and contract buses. It will be a pain, but not an insurmountable problem dealing with one tunnel out. Dealing with two tunnels out will be an utter disaster.

There are many things that can be done to manage the situation.


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## Hal (Jun 8, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.
> 
> Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed. On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?


I was thinking of Amtrak trains.
As far as plans when one or both tunnels goes out of service. Saying put them on the Path was not some insight or inspiration on my part. It has happened. The passengers were directed to the PATH as an option when both or one tunnel was down and PATH honored Amtrak tickets. Some trains were turned at Newark. Some passengers opted to return home. Other trains were terminated at Philadelphia and turned back there.

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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 8, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.


I would guess that is because this is the Amtrak forum, not the commuter forum and this discussion is about Amtrak reroutes....not NJT. That being said:



Palmetto said:


> Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed.



NJT is indeed relevant to the discussion because of what you stated. If PATH-etic is inundated with displaced NJT passenger, there would be no real place to for the displaced Amtrak passengers to fit. We've seen this happen when something happens between NYP-NWK.

It is a cluster...that gets clustier!*



Palmetto said:


> On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?


I wouldn't normally do this, but here

. (The link is clean.) h34r: 





* I am aware that clustier is not really a word....but it is something that is used during disruptions. (e.g. the clusterf*ck just got clustier!!)


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## Palmetto (Jun 9, 2016)

I think we get the idea on "clustier"! Too bad about "the plan", too. :giggle:


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 9, 2016)

In the event two tubes go down at the same time we are in major trouble.

Problem 1. No terminal for amtrak long distance from the south. Trains could easily be moved into Hoboken and passengers either put on Ferries or buses to move them on into the city. Similar to what went on in the streamliner era. I also would combine 20/98 and 19/97 from WAS-HOB to free up a time slot in each direction. 20 would run three hours earlier.

Problem 2. A lack of a complete line for NER/Acela service WAS-BOS. We could use special PATH trains that run direct NWK-33rd street as currently there is a change at Exchange Place. And make it a guaranteed connection. But likely the network would be overwhelmed that that wouldn't be the best option. So the WAS-NYP trains I would run into Hoboken and short turn them so that those passengers could use a ferry insofar that we take some pressure off Path. Passengers going to points north of New York would get put on Path at Newark. To where they could connect with another train at NYP.

Problem 3. Lack of a coach yard in New Jersey. Use NJTs Hoboken yard but try to short turn everything as to minimize the time a train sits.

Problem 4. Path or Ferries becoming overwhelmed. Select trains (LDs- NER northern service) that can be handled by LDs terminating in Hoboken while using buses and ferries for passengers. And the NER North service terminates in Newark and passengers switch to Path to Penn station to continue their journey. Acela passengers also get the path at NWK. As far as NER south (normally terminate at NYP) cancel half the trains north of Philly and run them to Hoboken. While short turning the consist in Hoboken so it can take another train old back to south.

Problem 5. All of the NJT trains.

Problem 6. Stuck equipment in NYP. The NER/Acella fleet is completely split up. And one LD or two might be stuck on the wrong side of the Hudson.


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## Eric S (Jun 9, 2016)

I can't imagine Amtrak running much of anything in and out of Hoboken, as that would likely be overwhelmed by NJT (not to mention lack of any Amtrak facilities there). I'd assume long distance trains would be turned at either WAS or PHL, with Amtrak turning as much Acela/NER traffic as possible at NWK.

One tube down - moderate difficulties for Amtrak and massive problems for NJT

Two tubes down - maybe wanna try American Airlines, BoltBus, Delta Air Lines, Megabus, etc. instead...


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## jis (Jun 9, 2016)

Unlikely that anyone will run any Amtrak train to Hoboken specially during rush hours Hoboken will be more than overwhelmed with NJT trains.

Amtrak trains will mostly terminate in Philly with maybe an hourly turn or two, running to Newark. Heck we have already experienced this, and Amtrak service between Philly and New York definitely was way lower priority than managing the local commuter crowd. Almost everyone from the area understands that and almost no one from outside the area understands that apparently.

There really are many more viable, albeit inconvenient alternatives for NEC spine traffic than for local suburban traffic to New York from the South.

One of the things that happened is severral airlines substituted larger aircraft on existing schedule. Bus lines ran more buses. And of course many trips were curtailed for the duration.

Things may be different for a long term outage, but essentially the priorities will be about the same.


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## Hal (Jun 9, 2016)

Eric S said:


> I can't imagine Amtrak running much of anything in and out of Hoboken, as that would likely be overwhelmed by NJT (not to mention lack of any Amtrak facilities there). I'd assume long distance trains would be turned at either WAS or PHL, with Amtrak turning as much Acela/NER traffic as possible at NWK.
> 
> One tube down - moderate difficulties for Amtrak and massive problems for NJT
> 
> Two tubes down - maybe wanna try American Airlines, BoltBus, Delta Air Lines, Megabus, etc. instead...


The long distance trains will turn at Washington. Maybe Philadelphia but I tend to doubt it. They would have to establish a commissary. Acela train sets can run to Newark and be turned there changing ends. Keystone trains can be run to Newark and be turned there changing ends. If needed some regionals can be turned at Newark running the engine around. Certainly whatever trains Amtrak runs will be a limited frequency. 
They won't be sending any Amtrak trains to Hoboken.


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## jis (Jun 9, 2016)

I completely agree. We took a somewhat deeper look at the possibilities in the days after Sandy, and this is exactly the conclusion that we arrived at.


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## west point (Jun 9, 2016)

Don't forget if one tube is down for years the other tube will have to be shut every 2 - 4 weekends for major work.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 9, 2016)

west point said:


> Don't forget if one tube is down for years the other tube will have to be shut every 2 - 4 weekends for major work.


 The estimated time to repair each tube is one year of 24/7 work. The defects do not involve elements relating to structural integrity. The issues are with the concrete lining, the bench wall, and track and ballast - important items, but it's not like the tunnel will suddenly fail and water will start gushing into the tubes. The post Sandy inspection found the cast iron tube, the structural heart of the tunnel, is sound.


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## west point (Jun 10, 2016)

Work on a bore has to be staged. If too much concrete is removed without replacement it is possible that tube would try to float ? That could significantly extend work ?


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## jis (Jun 10, 2016)

west point said:


> Work on a bore has to be staged. If too much concrete is removed without replacement it is possible that tube would try to float ? That could significantly extend work ?


I am sure they have taken such issues into consideration in their planning without our amateurish help


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