# Airport TSA



## zepherdude

I guess this post is a official Rant and Rave!

I found a clip made by an ATL passenger about the length of the TSA lines. It was not about Amtrak and it had 2 four letter words, so I could not post it here. The lines went from security, down the hall, around the corner (s), down more halls, through open doors and finally more waiting locations. Why US passengers continue to put up with this frustration of flying, I will never know. If there was ever the time to back Amtrak and high speed rail, this is the time.

Yet Congress continues to block train travel, bash and treat Amtrak as a stepchild. Cutting services, food service cars, staffing issues and cheap and poor menu choices. Congress tries to squeeze blood from a turnip where Amtrak is concerned and I do not understand it. Seems like we should enhance rail travel, push Amtrak, increase speed and equipment from A to B.

Airlines pour billions of bucks into more equipment and systems and the TSA can not get pax to the gates and they miss flights and get so frustrated and disgusted. The TSA is the ultimate fear of flying.

I have no facts or numbers here, I am presenting these comments just from this video from a normal person fed up with flying, fed up with the TSA. America has the skills to make Amtrak work. For some stupid reason we continue to pour money into aircraft and blast Rail Transportation. Japan, China and Europe can make it happen. Why can't we?


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## OlympianHiawatha

I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.


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## Ryan

Strangely, I flew up to NY on Monday and managed to board the aircraft without getting stripped or pawed.

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.


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## Triley

From what I understand, the TSA has every right to set up shop in our stations and do the same screening done at the airports.


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## HighBall

In other TSA news, their automatic explosives luggage screening equipment went belly up causing a massive headache at the Phoenix airport.

Thousands of bags stranded at Phoenix Sky Harbor airport by screening SNAFU


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## KmH

Transportation Security Administration - an oxymoron.

Fear mongering is an effective tool governments use to keep their populace in line.

TSA is an effective fear mongering tool.

How many terrorists or terrorists plots have you heard of that TSA has intercepted/thwarted since the establishment of the TSA?

Tests have repeatedly shown how easy it is for government agents to smuggle weapons on board commercial aircraft.

TSA routinely fails to detect 95% of those test weapons.

TSA is a joke that isn't funny.


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## RSG

Ryan said:


> Strangely, I flew up to NY on Monday and managed to board the aircraft without getting stripped or pawed.
> 
> Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.


Erm, aren't you a member of Pre-Check or the other frequent traveler security pre-clearance service?


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## RSG

Triley said:


> From what I understand, the TSA has every right to set up shop in our stations and do the same screening done at the airports.


Yes, they do. If you wish to wander into the neighborhood of conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones' YouTube channel has videos of security thuggery allegedly occurring at 30th Street Station in PHL (and perhaps elsewhere). Generally, they leave security to Amtrak Police, other divisions in the Department of Homeland Security, and local law enforcement. I would imagine the airport security scenario is not too far off in the future, at least at some stations.


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## crabby_appleton1950

I saw the TV news reports on the airport TSA mess the past couple days,

and my fear is it will drive more people to Amtrak,

complicating life for we who are and have been Amtrak fans/riders.

Selfish, I know.


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## tonys96

RSG said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand, the TSA has every right to set up shop in our stations and do the same screening done at the airports.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they do. If you wish to wander into the neighborhood of conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones' YouTube channel has videos of security thuggery allegedly occurring at 30th Street Station in PHL (and perhaps elsewhere). Generally, they leave security to Amtrak Police, other divisions in the Department of Homeland Security, and local law enforcement. I would imagine the airport security scenario is not too far off in the future, at least at some stations.
Click to expand...

Alex Jones? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


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## jis

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.


You may be guessing wrong  Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way.  
And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.

Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA. 

Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.


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## Ryan

RSG said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Strangely, I flew up to NY on Monday and managed to board the aircraft without getting stripped or pawed.
> 
> Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Erm, aren't you a member of Pre-Check or the other frequent traveler security pre-clearance service?
Click to expand...

Recently yes. Before that, no. Still no stripping or pawing.


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## trainman74

I've taken two round trips since I got Global Entry status, and once I had my arms and legs perfunctorily patted down, at O'Hare. (I suspect the TSA agents working the Pre-Check line were bored.) Those who see the glass as half-empty might refer to that as "pawed," but I wouldn't. I didn't take anything off except my watch, so I wouldn't say I was "stripped," either.


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## oregon pioneer

jis said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be guessing wrong  Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way.
> And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.
> 
> Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA.
> 
> Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.
Click to expand...

Um, well, I am not exactly a frequent flyer, but when I flew back east from Boise for my Dad's funeral, I had bad experiences in both directions (admittedly only one due to the TSA). Going eastbound, I walked through the scanner with a sport vest on. I did not know that a vest was "outerwear" (I took off my winter coat and hat). And they did not ask me to remove it. They just got me on the other side, and escorted me into a glass enclosure where, in full view of all the other passengers filing by, a woman agent asked me to remove my vest and quite thoroughly patted me down (yes, right up the insides of my thighs). I was in tears, crying "You could have just ASKED me to remove it BEFORE I went through the scanner!" Little Old Lady on the way to a funeral? Doesn't matter to them!

On the return trip, I had a three-part ticket with two Delta legs and a Northwest Airlines leg in the middle. Delta and Northwest were in the process of combining when I made the reservation, and I was assured that when I returned (after the merger), the ticket would present no problem. Riiiight.... I stood aside from the line while the agent at the desk tried frantically to get everyone ELSE on the flight, while talking to tech help on the phone trying to get the computer to issue me a boarding pass. Then as soon as my plane took off with my empty seat, she said "OK, NOW I can re-book you!" Of course, my carefully planned get-to-Boise-in-time-to-drive-home-that-evening was out the window, as I flew to LaGuardia, Memphis, Salt Lake and then Boise. And made it 50 miles out of the 200 home from the airport before getting a motel so I could crash.

After that, I swore never to fly again, unless it was the ONLY way to get where I needed to go. That was the case last summer, when I flew to France and back. The only discomfort was physical due to the tiny seats. I'm a little person, and I was crammed in, so I wonder how large people can tolerate it at all (well, the guy next to me did it by taking up a third of my space). But at least I was not subjected to humiliation or severe inconvenience, so that seems to be the luck of the draw. Jis, you've been lucky, and by now you know the rules. I hope you don't get into a position where knowing the rules is not enough, or the system just happens to not favor you that day. As for me, I will take Amtrak over flying any day.


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## RSG

jis said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be guessing wrong  Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way.
> And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.
Click to expand...

Right. Because TSA groping never happens. Much like full-body scan recordings weren't shared among various employees for their own gratification. Totally made-up.



> Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA.


Well, a rail travel message board probably isn't the first place to find such individuals. But plenty of other places abound.



> Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.


Except that Israeli security begins long before it gets to that point. By the time the closed-door screening is underway, multiple concerns have already been raised which haven't been allayed. With the TSA, security screening doesn't begin until the belts and shoes come off.


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## jis

First of all I do not defend the TSA silliness. Second I think some of the comments here are generally over the top from people who have strong emotions about the matter rather than a level headed logical approach.

The reason I asked for people here is because it was stated that most people here have forsworn air travel apparently because they have been stripped and pawed. My comment was only countering that. I never said it does not happen occasionally. However that does not make it a common occurrence. So repeatedly setting up extreme strawmen and knocking them down does not achieve much.

Apparently, since this is an emotional issue here making a reasonable discussion impossible, this will be the last message on this matter from me. After all, if a few people choose to behave in a particular way it does not matter in the bigger scheme of things


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## AmtrakBlue

I don't fly often, but when I have, I have never had a problem going through security. Even when I forgot to take my small bag of "liquids" out of my bag and put it in the box. Granted, they seemed to look at my bags a little longer than normal (had a small laptop in another bag), but never questioned me. Even forgot to take my shoes off at another airport (small and not busy at that time), and nobody stopped me.

I'm not doubting things have happened to others, but it's like saying "I'm never taking the train again because one just crashed and some people were killed and/or injured." But we know trains are running all day and night without incidents.


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## RSG

AmtrakBlue said:


> I don't fly often, but when I have, I have never had a problem going through security. Even when I forgot to take my small bag of "liquids" out of my bag and put it in the box. Granted, they seemed to look at my bags a little longer than normal (had a small laptop in another bag), but never questioned me. Even forgot to take my shoes off at another airport (small and not busy at that time), and nobody stopped me.


I have a friend who flies 2-3 times/year. He notes that he almost always (outside of smaller airports) gets selected for secondary screening. He has his own theories as to why that is the case, but in any event he just accepts it as the way things are. If that happened more than two or three times to me, it would be enough to dissuade me from flying commercially, period. Particularly since one can almost never find out why you are being treated the way you are (much like the No-Fly List).

OTOH, I have another friend who travels frequently, occasionally internationally, and notes that whenever the TSA inspects her checked baggage, they always leave a card. I’ve talked to others who mention that they notice when the TSA has rifled through their bags and there is never a note or explanation left. Is my friend treated differently because she has a professional courtesy title before her name and a PhD after it? (Thus signaling to those that encounter her that they’d better play by all the rules.) It’s the vast inconsistencies that I think make those of us who wish to avoid that circus altogether do so.



> I'm not doubting things have happened to others, but it's like saying "I'm never taking the train again because one just crashed and some people were killed and/or injured." But we know trains are running all day and night without incidents.


I think a more comparable example would be if a _plane_ crashed and people were killed. A big part of the issue with those of us who don’t partake of commercial air travel is that there are—as mentioned above—so many inconsistencies. With Amtrak, the inconsistencies are with customer service. With the TSA (and partly the airlines), it’s about personal security and freedom and thus any inconsistencies are more pronounced. If the TSA asked someone to do something they were unwilling to do (or found an unacceptable item on person or carry-on) and the passenger were allowed to say “no, thanks” and walk away and then up to the airline ticket counter for a refund, then it would be a little less stressful. But knowing that the only way one is going to get from Point A to Point B on that day is to submit to whatever one is asked to do or risk losing their personal freedom for an indeterminate amount of time as well as the likely loss of financial outlay makes the action of using that form of transport a very serious consideration.

It used to be that joking about a bomb or attempting to carry an unauthorized firearm was the primary source of involuntary denied pre-boarding at the airport. Nowadays it’s still that, but can also be a number of other issues that the passenger likely has no way of foreseeing, particularly if they have played by all the rules or simply made an honest mistake.


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## chakk

The cards are -- or are supposed to be -- left by TSA agents inside EVERY bag that they physically open for a search. My golf bag always gets such a tag, and so does my suitcase if it is carrying any sports equipment or food items such as jars of peanut butter, salad dressing, or pure maple syrup. So far, no evidence that agents have physically opened the food items during their search.


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## jis

I think having any bottle full of some thick liquid catches their attention. The only times TSA has open searched my checked bag is when there was such a bottle in it. Well except that one time when I had packed a bunch of assorted electronic cables in it. 

OTOH with hand bags, both the British and the Indian security folks are much much more intrusive, specially if there is more than one or two pieces of electronic stuff in it. Once it gets going it is a full blown take everything out of the bag and put it back again. And in India absolutely everyone gets a free massage ... er, a pat down.


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## oregon pioneer

I don't blame _only _the TSA for my resistance to flying as a means of transportation. The reasons for my dislike of flying are a whole stew of the following, and more:


Unpleasant TSA experiences are likely, in my personal experience.
Physical discomfort (small seats, large seatmates forcing me to lean to one side, constant noise and enforced lack of physical activity) is more than likely.
If there is a hitch in travel plans, it is more difficult to get in touch with customer service, and a satisfactory resolution less likely, than with Amtrak.
I am much more likely to get sick from breathing the air on an airplane than on a train.
I am a sociable person. On trains, I tend to enjoy conversations, meet people I have things in common with, and occasionally make long-lasting new friends. That has not yet occurred on a plane.
And, last but not least, I PREFER traveling real-time on-the-ground, where I can admire the scenery of this beautiful country as I pass over the land, and appreciate the distances that I am traveling across. I would drive, too, but I prefer the more energy-efficient aspects of mass transit, and it's nice to have someone else doing the driving so I can admire the scenery without putting others on the road in danger, LOL. :giggle:


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## crabby_appleton1950

My last flight, and I do mean '_my last flight_', I was packed in the plane tighter than a sardine in a can.

I was jammed up tight against the window and the woman next to me (in the middle seat) reeked of her favorite cologne.

Fortunately it was only a 90 minute flight.


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## KauaiJohn

I fly from Kauai to Honolulu several times a month and most of the local tas guys are embarrassed to pat me down since we have all known each other for years- it's a very small island. But coming home from Honolulu the other day took the cake. The guy f risked all the way up until he was holding a couple of things he shouldn't have been. I was about to punch him.


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## trainman74

RSG said:


> I have a friend who flies 2-3 times/year. He notes that he almost always (outside of smaller airports) gets selected for secondary screening. He has his own theories as to why that is the case, but in any event he just accepts it as the way things are. If that happened more than two or three times to me, it would be enough to dissuade me from flying commercially, period. Particularly since one can almost never find out why you are being treated the way you are (much like the No-Fly List).


For a few years before 9/11, it was seeming like every time I went through security, I was selected for the explosives residue screening (pads wiped on my hands and sometimes my carry-on bag). The only thing I could figure out was that I fit a profile as a man in my 20s with only a backpack as a carry-on.


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## fairviewroad

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> I saw the TV news reports on the airport TSA mess the past couple days,
> 
> and my fear is it will drive more people to Amtrak,
> 
> complicating life for we who are and have been Amtrak fans/riders.
> 
> Selfish, I know.


I would look at it as a good thing if more people were driven to Amtrak due to the TSA mess. I suspect there's a sizable percentage of Acela/NER customers who are taking the train for that reason. High load factors, while driving up your ticket price, are ultimately a good thing as rail travel becomes more relevant and normative for a greater number of people. That's what *should* ultimately lead to more rail service.

For instance, check out this article posted today in the Chicago Sun-Times. It reports that TSA waits exceeded *two hours* at O-Hare yesterday and today. Granted, for many of those people there is no viable rail alternative. But there must surely be people in those lines flying to places like Detroit, St. Louis, IND, MSP, etc. for whom there either is currently a good Amtrak choice, or would be if regional leaders stepped up their game. Many of those people are going to realize that they are spending longer in line at security than they are in the air. Some of those people are going to try the train next time. It's not just Amtrak that is capable of producing "never agains."


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## CelticWhisper

I'm very glad I swore off flying when I heard the news of coerced body scans being introduced in 2010 (coercion, in my opinion, being supplied by the totally-unacceptable alternative of full-body molestation). I have to say I scratch my head a bit at the fact that after 6 years of horror stories regarding TSA groping traumatizing children and sexual-assault victims, kids having nightmares and crying that they don't want to go to Disneyland anymore after "security", and criminal arrests of TSA clerks, long lines are what make people say "enough is enough."

Then again, the KGW hasn't really bothered me in my 4 years of riding the rails so maybe lines just don't get under my skin the way they do with some people. Could also be that the KGW is just a quick A-to-B and not standing around for hours.

Still, I echo fairviewroad's sentiment that this could be good for Amtrak if it forces people to take another look at rail and see how great it can be. True, it might not be our own little best-kept-secret club anymore but if it means better funding for infrastructure upgrades and HSR, I can live with that as long as there's no more security at train stations than we already have (namely APD working behind the scenes and the occasional dog wandering around).

If the masses flee the airports to Amtrak and the TSA tries to follow, however...I fear I may have to bid the rails adieu as I did the sky.


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## SarahZ

I'm always amused that the body scanner is suspicious of my right knee. The past 7-8 times I've gone through security, the scanner put a square around my right knee, and one of the TSA ladies came over and said, "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to pat your knee down." They've always been professional and fast. They just sort of grip my calf and knee, and it takes all of two seconds. I didn't feel "pawed".

Anyway, does the TSA hoopla annoy me? Yes. Here's the thing, though. For as much as I'd love to go, "@#!(% the TSA!!! I'm never flying again!!!" there is the issue of *TIME*_. _I don't have six days to dedicate to getting to Seattle or L.A. and back. I don't have four days to dedicate to getting to the east coast and back. Also, I can't afford a room anymore, and there is no way I'm sitting in coach all that time. So, when it comes down to it, I don't have the luxury of sticking to my principles when I need to be somewhere and I only have five days of paid vacation every year.

Plus, I actually like flying. I love takeoff and landing (especially at Midway!) The seats aren't uncomfortable because I'm short enough to have plenty of leg room. If I'm stuck next to someone with huge shoulders, I try to lean against the wall to give them more room, and if I'm a little uncomfortable, it's only for a few hours. It still beats sitting next to a stranger in coach for three days.

Anyway, that's my two pennies. I like traveling, pure and simple, whether it's by car, plane, or train. Sometimes you're stuck in line at the airport for over an hour. Sometimes you're stuck in traffic for over an hour. Sometimes you're stuck on a late train for over an hour. Delays happen. That's why I prepare for them by arriving at the airport early, not making plans the day a train is schedule to arrive, and giving myself padding when I drive somewhere.


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## RSG

fairviewroad said:


> I would look at it as a good thing if more people were driven to Amtrak due to the TSA mess. I suspect there's a sizable percentage of Acela/NER customers who are taking the train for that reason. High load factors, while driving up your ticket price, are ultimately a good thing as rail travel becomes more relevant and normative for a greater number of people. That's what *should* ultimately lead to more rail service.
> 
> For instance, check out this article posted today in the Chicago Sun-Times. It reports that TSA waits exceeded *two hours* at O-Hare yesterday and today. Granted, for many of those people there is no viable rail alternative. But there must surely be people in those lines flying to places like Detroit, St. Louis, IND, MSP, etc. for whom there either is currently a good Amtrak choice, or would be if regional leaders stepped up their game. Many of those people are going to realize that they are spending longer in line at security than they are in the air. Some of those people are going to try the train next time. It's not just Amtrak that is capable of producing "never agains."


I hope via your theory this happens, but from my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, it's not going to happen quickly. There are still many people who don't even realize passenger train service exists, or if they do, think that corridor service somewhere else is the only option. So getting them to realize it's an option at all is the first step.

The second part of the equation is getting them to rationalize the time factor. I've seen people complain because the train "takes too long" or come unglued because it's two hours late (with the "I'll never ride the train again!" parting gift to everyone within earshot). Yet they'll gladly take the current travel advice and arrive three hours early to the airport and spend another hour or two waiting for a connection somewhere (perhaps even with a missed connection or flight cancellation and another delay) with the resigned attitude of "that's just the way it is". Their outlook doesn't change a bit when media images of people camping out overnight in an airport are shown. But the train is somehow on par with taking a stagecoach from New York to San Francisco.

I understand the plight of those like SarahZ, who have only a limited amount of time with which to get a trip in. But it still seems to me there are many who will gladly spend a day-and-a-half flying (each way) to get in two or three days of vacation travel, but yet the train just takes too long.


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## Palmetto

Here's another plight: living a 4-hour drive from the nearest Amtrak station. Flying is a must in this instance.


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## oregon pioneer

Palmetto said:


> Here's another plight: living a 4-hour drive from the nearest Amtrak station. Flying is a must in this instance.


Haha, I live 3 hours from the nearest Ambus connector... and three hours from the nearest airport. I prefer Amtrak, but I will fly if it's necessary for time or logistics reasons.


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## jis

oregon pioneer said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another plight: living a 4-hour drive from the nearest Amtrak station. Flying is a must in this instance.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I live 3 hours from the nearest Ambus connector... and three hours from the nearest airport. I prefer Amtrak, but I will fly if it's necessary for time or logistics reasons.
Click to expand...

I am one hour from the nearest Amtrak at Kissimmee. I usually travel a lot to the NY/NJ area for day long meetings. I have my daytime work to do on both the adjacent days to the meeting day. So guess what mode I use? I will be racking up some 30,000 PQM on United around 2,000 miles per trip this year just doing round trips Orlando to Newark! That is an example of a trip that I would have done by Amtrak if there was a true overnight service from central Florida to the New York area, allowing me to meet in the NY area from say 10am through 5pm reliably. Stretching it a bit I'd even consider 11am - 4pm, but given the current infrastructure that is well beyond the realm of possibilities. Maybe someday we will see enough High or at least Higher Speed service down the Atlantic seaboard to make such possible.

Amtrak is useful for me when I am on vacation with much extra time, or for an occasional trip over a weekend to places like Tampa, Miami, JAX, SAV or even RGH. With the new Gulf Coast Service restoration even NOL and Mobile become possibilities.

But other than that it is all by air, so much so that I am a member of every possible means to make it through TSA as fast as possible. The most expensive of those is the CLEAR biometric system which together with TSAPre gets me through Orlando TSA in 5 to 10 mins always. In my usual travels Newark is usually the worst in terms of TSA wait times. Fortunately PANYNJ has read TSA the riot act and they seem to be responding in various ways. We''ll see how that goes.

And then there are the intercontinental trips where there is no practical way to use ground transport of any sort. I have at least one trip to India every year which is something like 18,000 mile round trip, flying over exotic places like the cities on the Silk Route (Bukhara, Samarkand, Tblisi, Tashkent), sometimes even over Meshad in Iran, over Moscow and Ekaterinburg, over the Arctic Ocean and Svalbards, and Bodo and Nordkap all north of the Arctic Circle, and all this quite often with clear weather with spectacular views of iceberg filled oceans, high mountains, vast deserts, the roof of the world, Aral Sea, Kabul, Kandahar, Herat, huge rivers like the Volga and the Don, Amu Darya (Oxus), Indus and its five feeders, the Ganga and Yamuna, and what have you. Who says there is nothing to see while flying? 

Actually AAF with a station in the Melbourne/Cocoa area and a SunRail connection from OIA Intermodal center to Orlando Amtrak or Kissimmee Amtrak, with good connection at OIA, would cause me to take the train more often for local travel. Naturally Miami (and eventually hopefully JAX too) would be nice to get to via AAF.


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## Palmetto

Hmm. Premier Silver right there, Jis.


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> Hmm. Premier Silver right there, Jis.


Yup, Actually since I usually do that in Business First, usually that racks up close to 35,000 PQM (with the current double PQM for BF/F) depending a bit on the details of the routing. And the dozens of MCO - EWR trips and other domestic business trips rack me up close to a 40,000. So I am always pretty much guaranteed Platinum for the year as long as this travel pattern continues.


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## RSG

Palmetto said:


> Here's another plight: living a 4-hour drive from the nearest Amtrak station. Flying is a must in this instance.


People in my neck of the woods routinely travel 4 hours to the nearest hub airport (or else pay a $150-$400 surcharge per ticket to fly via glorified puddle jumper out of the nearest airport with scheduled service). Some slightly farther away travel longer than that to get to the hub with decent airfares. For the same drive, time-wise, I have a choice of two AMTK stations, one with free parking. For me, it's a no-brainer. The possible time savings just aren't worth the hassle of flying.


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## Palmetto

People in my neck of the wood do not drive 4 hours to get to the nearest airport hub. That's a six-hour drive, and it's called Bush International [iAH].

I guess my state is bigger than your state.


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## jis

RSG said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another plight: living a 4-hour drive from the nearest Amtrak station. Flying is a must in this instance.
> 
> 
> 
> People in my neck of the woods routinely travel 4 hours to the nearest hub airport (or else pay a $150-$400 surcharge per ticket to fly via glorified puddle jumper out of the nearest airport with scheduled service). Some slightly farther away travel longer than that to get to the hub with decent airfares. For the same drive, time-wise, I have a choice of two AMTK stations, one with free parking. For me, it's a no-brainer. The possible time savings just aren't worth the hassle of flying.
Click to expand...

I do have several Amtrak stations within 1.5 hours. The problem is there are few trains running on unreliable schedules going to places that are either ones that I don't often need to go to, or take too much time to get to the places that I do need to get to. And the honking big airport, OIA/MCO, is also within 1 hour drive. So well....

As a matter of detail, for example to go to Miami I can either go to my closest Amtrak station and hope that the Southbound Silvers are running on time. Or I can drive 90 minutes to a West Palm Beach and get a Tri Rail on predictable regular schedule to Miami, or wait around for unpredictable Amtrak, Or fight the traffic to Miami My tendency would be to take Tri Rail if I am going to somewhere in Miami that is reachable conveniently, which is relatively rare. So most often I just drive to Miami.

But then again I don't really need to go to Miami and hence don't make that trip rarely, if at all. Where I need to go is New York, Washington DC, Houston, San Francisco/San Jose and Denver/Fort Collins. And really nothing other than Air works for those in most cases. The only time I take the train to any of those is when I have some leisure time that I want to spend on a train.


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## Rob Creighton

My thoughts are along the lines of Sarah Z. Most of the places I've lived flown out of (Lubbock, TX/Indianapolis), TSA isn't a nightmare. In Lubbock you can arrive at the airport, park your car, walk from the furthest part of the parking lot, check your bags, get a boarding pass reprint, go through security (and have a pleasant conversation with them) in about 20 minutes. If it's busy, add 10 minutes. In fact, in Lubbock, you'll spend more time waiting for your luggage at baggage claim than you will any other part of the Lubbock airport experience. Indy, for a much bigger airport, was still rather quick. The places where I've had lousy experiences with wait times: O'Hare (AA TSA check point), Myrtle Beach and Love Field Dallas. I've gotten patted down a couple of times. Once or twice they've checked my carry on because I vape, and there are components of that -- that can set off a red flag. That said, when I've asked what they're looking for they've showed me. And when I've asked "how I can avoid the issue" they've actually been helpful at providing some tips. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I love TSA. Or I buy the fact that they're actually stopping a lot of the contraband they're trying to. It's inconvenient, it adds stress at the beginning of a journey and it can be frustrating, but it is what it is, and I've learned the less aggravated I let myself get about the process, the less stressful and easier it is to go through. 

Because I'm in Lubbock-- it makes flying almost always a necessity. There may be one train that rolls through a New Mexico or Texas City closer than Dallas/Fort Worth, San Antonio or ABQ, but it doesn't change a very long journey to Chicago. And with trying to do two visits a year with 3 weeks vacation, yeah, the luxury to burn precious vacation days on a train at the expense of spending times with loved ones and friends or the odd ball sanity day throughout the year ranks lower than riding the rails. Would I love to do it? Yes. And I'll probably do it at least once at some point, hopefully. But for now, I'll make the best of crowded airliners, and get where I need to go and be there in hours instead of days. 

As for delays, those can happen on any mode of transportation. I remember sitting at Union Station on a horribly late "City of New Orleans" that didn't depart Chicago until it was supposed to be at my destination: Champaign, Illinois. I was on a LSL that was busstituted between Cleveland and Buffalo. And the Wolverine that left so late that they terminated the service in Detroit and stuck us on busses the rest of they. As far as airlines go. I got stuck in a Southwest Airlines melt down in Dallas, that was fun. As was having my AA flight cancelled out of Chicago because of a stray thunderstorm. AA pretty much wiped out most of their Dallas flights. I've also been on full flights and flights where the whole row was mine, same with Amtrak. At the end of the day it's a crap shoot with either mode of transportation.

One more thing. If Amtrak truly wants to increase ridership, they need to make the corridor and short haul travel quicker and more convenient schedule wise. When I lived in Indy I never rode the Hoosier State (I know it's not really Amtrak anymore) because it was longer than driving, no cheaper than driving, and limited my time in Chicago. I make the time to take the longer train ride to Pontiac, MI from Chicago because I absolutely hate doing that drive, but it takes a couple of hours longer than driving, and Amtrak sets my visiting schedule with family vs. me. It's mainly I hate driving, and don't want to rent a car that pushes me to Amtrak.


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## CCC1007

In March I was able to clear security in 15 minutes in Seattle, from curbside to secure side.


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## jis

As I said earlier, with CLEAR and Pre, I can generally clear security in Orlando in 5 - 10 minutes irrespective of the size of the crowd, and Orlando can get reeeeaaally bad, with the general lines winding all the way to the shopping mall. With just TSA Pre I have in the best case, done it in 10 mins or so, and worst case 25 to 30 mins, but that was a while back before I sprung for and renewed my dormant CLEAR membership.


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## Ryan

Yep, it's somewhat amazing. Even with just PreCheck, it's not uncommon for me to walk into the terminal, drop my bag (if I have one) and walk straight through security w/o waiting in line.


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## Devil's Advocate

The TSA is a massive and growing impediment to the free and practical movement of millions of innocent travelers. Not surprisingly these problems seem to be lost on folks who rarely fly, folks who enjoy limited impact thanks to living in bumblefork nowhere, and folks who enjoy priority service thanks to special status or disposable income. I happen to have priority screening access but that doesn't mean I've forgotten what it's like to be scanned without status. Nor have I failed to notice that as TSA increases in importance as a revenue earning vehicle the primary screening process has become slower and more taxing for average travelers. Eventually PreCheck will no longer be enough and we'll need to start stacking priority screening services on top of each other just to make the plane on time. Prior to the TSA I could park my car thirty minutes before takeoff and still have time to spare. Not in some deserted spoke airport in the middle of nowhere, but right here in the seventh largest city in the country. Now you need closer to two hours for the average traveler to be sure they can make it.


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## Ryan

That I wholeheartedly agree with. I certainly recognize that I'm lucky to have the benefits of pre clearance. That said, the realistic view also isn't the dehumanizing strip and grope fest that some people make it out to be for all travelers.


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## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Yep, it's somewhat amazing. Even with just PreCheck, it's not uncommon for me to walk into the terminal, drop my bag (if I have one) and walk straight through security w/o waiting in line.


Is that @ BWI or National Ryan? ( I'll never call it by the Bogus name that the T-publican Congress gave it!)


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## Ryan

BWI.


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## neroden

jis said:


> And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.


No, it's been done. There are plenty of reports and you can look 'em up. Are you surprised that it's generally done to good-looking women? Because I'm not surprised.
TSA did not hire quality people. They ended up with a fair number of abusers hiding in their ranks. I'm sure it's a small minority, but they've made no effort to get rid of them.

As far as I can tell, TSA is a giant jobs program with no other function other than to scare people. We know it's completely useless against any serious terrorist attack; there have been enough tests, and a serious terrorist attack would of course target the *waiting lines*. I suppose it's better than our biggest giant federal make-work program, the US military, but honestly I'd rather just give everyone welfare and stop wasting money on ****.

FWIW, the next serious terrorist hijacking or bombing of a plane (they don't happen very often) will *undoubtedly* come from someone with "precheck" clearance of some sort. The prechecking is essentially worthless because they're working with outmoded models of who's likely to want to commit terrorist acts. Our federal government, and particularly the "security services", are staffed almost entirely by people with zero clue geopolitically.


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## Ryan

I don't think that anyone is saying that it's never been done, just that it's not the norm by a long shot.


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## RSG

Palmetto said:


> I guess my state is bigger than your state.


 Well, considering I don't live in AK, and yours is the second largest state, why yes...yes it is!

But then my state isn't served by SWA, which as most travel observers know, was created to make it just as cheap to fly within TX as it was to drive within TX.


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## jis

Devil said:


> The TSA is a massive and growing impediment to the free and practical movement of millions of innocent travelers. Not surprisingly these problems seem to be lost on folks who rarely fly, folks who enjoy limited impact thanks to living in bumblefork nowhere, and folks who enjoy priority service thanks to special status or disposable income. I happen to have priority screening access but that doesn't mean I've forgotten what it's like to be scanned without status. Nor have I failed to notice that as TSA increases in importance as a revenue earning vehicle the primary screening process has become slower and more taxing for average travelers. Eventually PreCheck will no longer be enough and we'll need to start stacking priority screening services on top of each other just to make the plane on time. Prior to the TSA I could park my car thirty minutes before takeoff and still have time to spare. Not in some deserted spoke airport in the middle of nowhere, but right here in the seventh largest city in the country. Now you need closer to two hours for the average traveler to be sure they can make it.


I do agree with that.
Since I am in the software business my analogy of the situation comes from what I am familiar with. We all are kinda stuck with whatever Microsoft throws at us, or at least have been. TSA is sort of like what Microsoft throws at us. We the hapless travelers, or developers in the analogy figure out ways to work around the obvious gaps and faults. This in the software business has caused entire sub-industries tio develop, like the whole virus protection business. As in the case of TSA these add-on fee ways of bypassing the mainstream has developed. Eventually events overtake the situation, which in case of Microsoft has been Linux and Android and iOS and OS-X the various variants of UNIX rising from the ashes in a manner of speaking. Maybe in the case of TSA we are reaching a turning point where the ludicrousness of it will finally move those that can actually dismantle it and replace it with something more reasonable and practical. What is it, or will be - I don't know for sure. But one thing I know is that we will not be returning to completely unchecked access to airplanes, and the other thing I know is the current method is impractical and does not scale and therefore in its present form is unsustainable.

As a part of the overall situation I think a solution should include reorienting the infrastructure so as to remove most under 500 miles passengers from the use of air transport as a first step, whether it be by rail, bus, ride share or some combination thereof. The second is to redesign airports to have more integrated and large airsides allowing for multiple entry points and reduce the need for security checking when you move from one terminal to another. This can be achieved by providing airside connections using buses, from terminal to terminal. This is something that is already being done at many airports, though it could be advertised better. This removes people from security queues. And the third is to make it easier in terms of price point, for people to get into the Pre program. $85 for five years may be quite impractical for a family of four that just travels on vacation once a year.

Meanwhile of course the band of inactivity on everything plays on on Capitol Hill unless it involves interfering in the private lives of the underprivileged to keep control of them and their bedroom and toilet behavior somehow, and also make sure that everyone has to pay more and more for healthcare so that the keepers of our laws can get bigger and bigger kickbacks for serving their paymasters.

Sad is the situation. What can I say?


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## Anderson

One thing they could do is permit pre-checking on folks under a given age (18? 16? 13?) if they're with an adult who qualifies and/or permit "piggyback" pre-check within a family (e.g. the parents would pay $85/ea but let the kids in for $20).

I've been mulling this over, btw, and my sense is that the TSA is being semi-intentionally obtuse in their handling of things (e.g. "keeping on keeping on" even as it became apparent that Precheck wasn't selling like they wanted it to, not to mention often botching up handling Precheck by not having the Precheck line open even when the main lines are extremely long). Basically, if next week a domestic airline attack (or foiled-in-progress attempt) occurred it would basically be all on the TSA's head (witness the dubious-to-criminal use of funds and documented bumbling). If, however, Congress starts seriously meddling then the TSA can at least /try/ to play the blame game. Yes, I recognize that their hands are tied in various ways but I get the feeling they almost WANT Congress to start ordering them around so they have some level of defense when the shoe inevitably drops.


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## MARC Rider

Ryan said:


> Yep, it's somewhat amazing. Even with just PreCheck, it's not uncommon for me to walk into the terminal, drop my bag (if I have one) and walk straight through security w/o waiting in line.


Depends on the time and the day of the week. I had been having good luck with reasonably fast entry at BWI until one day last summer (it was fairly early on a Sunday morning in July), I decided to come an hour and a half early instead of 2 hours early, and between the baggage check line and security, I managed to get to my gate just in time to see my plane backing off. The funny thing was that when I checked by bag, the computer spit out a notice that the bag was being checked late, so I should expect a delay in its delivery. However, when I finally got to San Antonio later in the day, my bag was waiting for me, having made the original flight, even if I hadn't!


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## MARC Rider

I've got some questions about Pre-Check, given that there seem to be some people here who have it. My wife and 25-year old daughter are flying with me to California in July for a family wedding. Leaving BWI on a Thursday morning, returning, leaving Oakland on a Saturday morning. Given all the hoo-hah I've been reading about TSA meltdown (and my own unfortunate experience last summer), I'm wondering whether we should apply. Of course that's three of us at $85 bucks apiece, but it is good for 5 years.

I looked at their website, and it seems like you don't have to make the initial application online, but you can just go to the interview (they have a couple of locations in inconvenient parts of Baltimore and also downtown DC.) Is it possible to schedule interview appoints for all 3 of us at the same time? (The appointment schedule form on the web site appears to only allow you to make one appointment at a time, but they have a phone number to call.)

If we do get an appointment, what has the experience been in terms for time from appointment to time that you receive your KTN ("known traveler number?") That is, what's the absolute latest we need to get the appointment in order to apply it to our flight in early July? We already have the reservations, but the website said you should be able to call the airline and have them apply the KTN to the reservation before the boarding pass is issued.

Is this worth it, or should we just suck it up and arrive at the airport 3 hours early? (Of course, I'd hate to go through the process, fork over the cash, and find out there's no pre-check line that day.)


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## HighBall

Speaking of TSA and incompetence - As of 5.23.16

TSA's Head Of Security 'Removed' From Office, Says House Panel


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## Palmetto

For MARC Rider:

I pre-applied online, then I went to Miami International for the actual sign-up. You can walk in, but if you have an appointment, you'll do better than walk-ins they say. BTW, there was no one in the office when I showed up, so the whole thing took about 15 minutes. I got an online answer in a couple of days, and a follow-up letter in about a week, both containing my KTN.


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## Devil's Advocate

I didn't have to deal with the TSA directly since Pre membership comes with GE, but it sounds like signing up for Pre will probably take longer than before and is likely to mean less to those who already have it once everyone currently in the backlog finally gets signed up.

Link: http://www.wisn.com/news/wisconsin-travelers-express-frustration-over-tsas-precheck-program/39693824


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## AmtrakBlue

Devil's Advocate said:


> I didn't have to deal with the TSA directly since Pre membership comes with GE, but it sounds like signing up for Pre will probably take longer than before and is likely to mean less to those who already have it once everyone currently in the backlog finally gets signed up.
> 
> Link: http://www.wisn.com/news/wisconsin-travelers-express-frustration-over-tsas-precheck-program/39693824


I'm just waiting for everyone to have signed up for pre-screen and get in that line then I can breeze through the regular line.  It might just pay to be poor (and not travel much). :lol:


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## MARC Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't have to deal with the TSA directly since Pre membership comes with GE, but it sounds like signing up for Pre will probably take longer than before and is likely to mean less to those who already have it once everyone currently in the backlog finally gets signed up.
> 
> Link: http://www.wisn.com/news/wisconsin-travelers-express-frustration-over-tsas-precheck-program/39693824
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just waiting for everyone to have signed up for pre-screen and get in that line then I can breeze through the regular line.  It might just pay to be poor (and not travel much). :lol:
Click to expand...

Actually, what it means is that when they sign up everybody, security screening for most passengers will be the way it was before they started going nuts about it. That is, you'll be able to keep your shoes on, laptops in your bag, etc. That's part of the attraction of the pre-check program.

The taking off your shoes and belts, and having to pull laptops etc. out of the bags is what slows up the security lines in the first place. But it seems like they're happy to have most people not have to do this, as long as the passengers pay the ransom  fee. So why not just end the silliness of the shoes and belts, etc? If they want money, they can just add a "security charge" to the ticket prices and be done with it.

BTW, the year after 9/11, I had occasion to travel to Tijuana, Mexico, and when I entered the pedestrian border crossing to return the the US, I had to go through a metal detector. I was about to empty my pockets, when the soldier (yes, there were genuine US Army (or maybe California National Guard) soldiers at that border crossing in June 2002) supervising the operation told me not to bother. Apparently they can set the detectors up so that they can distinguish between a cellphone, change and keys in the pocket and a weapon in the pocket. Of course, they don't have detectors that can distinguish between Cuban and Dominican cigars, but that's the point of the interview with the customs officer.  (I brought no cigars over, but I did have a bottle of tequila in hand.)


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## bretton88

Anderson said:


> One thing they could do is permit pre-checking on folks under a given age (18? 16? 13?) if they're with an adult who qualifies and/or permit "piggyback" pre-check within a family (e.g. the parents would pay $85/ea but let the kids in for $20).
> 
> I've been mulling this over, btw, and my sense is that the TSA is being semi-intentionally obtuse in their handling of things (e.g. "keeping on keeping on" even as it became apparent that Precheck wasn't selling like they wanted it to, not to mention often botching up handling Precheck by not having the Precheck line open even when the main lines are extremely long). Basically, if next week a domestic airline attack (or foiled-in-progress attempt) occurred it would basically be all on the TSA's head (witness the dubious-to-criminal use of funds and documented bumbling). If, however, Congress starts seriously meddling then the TSA can at least /try/ to play the blame game. Yes, I recognize that their hands are tied in various ways but I get the feeling they almost WANT Congress to start ordering them around so they have some level of defense when the shoe inevitably drops.


Pre check has allowed kids 12 and under to come with their eligible parents for a couple years now.


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