# No more printed system timetables



## rtabern (Apr 21, 2016)

Sad to hear Amtrak had decided not to publish national timetables anymore. Egh, I never really used them all that much... but was able to collect the complete collection since the first one... including the rare one that only a few thousand of were printed in the mid-1980's. I had a few folks mention the complete collection I have could be worth as much as $2000-3000.

April 20, 2016

For several years we have simultaneously produced the Amtrak System Timetable in printed form and as an electronic downloadable document housed on Amtrak.com. The decision has been made to discontinue production of the printed Amtrak System Timetable effective immediately. The final printed timetable is the January 2016 Winter/Spring version recently printed.
The reasons for this decision are:
...•Usage and demand for the printed document have steadily declined over the past five years.
•Surveys have revealed that few customers want or use the printed System Timetable and expressed a preference to access information on line.
•Schedules, policies and programs are ever changing and it’s impossible to keep the printed document accurate and up-to-date.
•Reducing print is financially responsible
•Reducing print is environmentally responsible
•All Amtrak timetables, including the System Timetable are housed within and may be accessed on Amtrak.com.
•At this time many of the smaller individual route and corridor wallet cards and panels will continue to be printed.


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## KnightRail (Apr 21, 2016)

National timetables will still be created and posted online as .pdf files as they are now. If a paper copy is desired, one can print at home or place the .pdf on a USB thumb drive and take it down to Staples copy and print center or a local print shop and have it printed. This change is long overdue. It's time that limited financial resources go to things like actually operating trains and not pet obsessions such as archaic printed system timetables.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 21, 2016)

Take good care of that collection-you have a National Treasure as they say on that PBS appraisal show. A friend of mine in Dallas has put together one of the world's leading collection of Airline Timetables and is terrified to think what that might be worth! I consider myself lucky for when I was a younglin I regularly went around to the travel agencies in Arlington Heights, IL and gathered up timetables and salted them away. Unfortunately when I went off to college and the folks closed the house, many were disposed of, but many still survive in my collection 

I only wish I could have gotten some of the floor standing display models!


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 21, 2016)

rtabern said:


> •At this time many of the smaller individual route and corridor wallet cards and panels will continue to be printed.


Any I correct when I read this as meaning that *some* of the individual route timetables ​wont be printed either? And in 6 months -12 months time none of them will be unlikely passengers kick up an almighty fuss at their withdrawal?


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## SanDiegan (Apr 21, 2016)

It's a PITA to have to download a bunch of individual TT's to plan a trip. Impossible with the spotty cell and WiFi service on-board. I always carry a National TT in my backpack on train trips. Amtrak is not an airline with all point-to-point trips. The National TT is a marketing tool. Most people, especially on the NEC and other corridors, don't even know the long-distance trains exist. Maybe that's the goal ?


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## KnightRail (Apr 21, 2016)

SanDiegan said:


> It's a PITA to have to download a bunch of individual TT's to plan a trip. Impossible with the spotty cell and WiFi service on-board. I always carry a National TT in my backpack on train trips. Amtrak is not an airline with all point-to-point trips. The National TT is a marketing tool. Most people, especially on the NEC and other corridors, don't even know the long-distance trains exist. Maybe that's the goal ?


It's an even greater PITA to read info in a printed timetable, and then come to find out it is old, stale, and now false information. A printed timetable is not dynamic, it doesn't update to reflect constant change. It doesn't show policy changes, and especially schedule changes and trackwork modifications. Nor does it show availability. There is a long list of changes in the "current" printed timetable that are now not current at all. The student discount program has changed, stations that were staffed now are not staffed, schedule changes, and more.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 21, 2016)

SanDiegan said:


> It's a PITA to have to download a bunch of individual TT's to plan a trip. Impossible with the spotty cell and WiFi service on-board. I always carry a National TT in my backpack on train trips. Amtrak is not an airline with all point-to-point trips. The National TT is a marketing tool. Most people, especially on the NEC and other corridors, don't even know the long-distance trains exist. Maybe that's the goal ?


They will still be making the national timetable, though the distribution method will be digital only. If you want it, download it to your device and have it at hand when you need it.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2016)

KnightRail said:


> SanDiegan said:
> 
> 
> > It's a PITA to have to download a bunch of individual TT's to plan a trip. Impossible with the spotty cell and WiFi service on-board. I always carry a National TT in my backpack on train trips. Amtrak is not an airline with all point-to-point trips. The National TT is a marketing tool. Most people, especially on the NEC and other corridors, don't even know the long-distance trains exist. Maybe that's the goal ?
> ...


*LIKE*


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## A Voice (Apr 21, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> SanDiegan said:
> 
> 
> > It's a PITA to have to download a bunch of individual TT's to plan a trip. Impossible with the spotty cell and WiFi service on-board. I always carry a National TT in my backpack on train trips. Amtrak is not an airline with all point-to-point trips. The National TT is a marketing tool. Most people, especially on the NEC and other corridors, don't even know the long-distance trains exist. Maybe that's the goal ?
> ...


Doing so requires a digital device, however, and isn't nearly so convenient or accessible as a printed copy. As SanDiagan points out, the printed national timetable is a marketing tool which cannot be matched by digital content; There is an intangible benefit to passengers browsing the timetable looking at all the trips they might take. You don't get that by just looking up the one timetable you need on your laptop.

Magazines and newspapers are also available by digital delivery, but people still buy the printed copy (often for a higher price) for reasons similar to why people would prefer a printed timetable (and perhaps particularly true for more senior passengers). Sometimes I almost think ill-advised decisions like this are made by a 25 year old intern who thinks everybody has a smart phone.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 21, 2016)

Of course there's an intangible benefit to a printed timetable. But the money used to produce those can also be used for other items that have intangible benefits, too. At a certain point it is simply a judgement call as to the best way to spend the money. Obviously not everyone agrees with the decision to get rid of the printed timetable.

Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.

I assume this is from some sort of internal communique but I would be curious as to its origin. There have been rumors of this sort of thing in the past.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 21, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Of course there's an intangible benefit to a printed timetable. But the money used to produce those can also be used for other items that have intangible benefits, too. At a certain point it is simply a judgement call as to the best way to spend the money. Obviously not everyone agrees with the decision to get rid of the printed timetable.
> 
> Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.
> 
> I assume this is from some sort of internal communique but I would be curious as to its origin. There have been rumors of this sort of thing in the past.


Well, on Sunday, there were only about 3-5 of them at my station (WIL). Today there were a lot more. Maybe they know that people will be coming to snatch them up. I did grab a 2nd one because the one I got on Sunday I'm giving to my sister and I figure I may not get it back.


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## afigg (Apr 21, 2016)

Suggestion to the moderators: that the title of this thread be changed to "No more printed system timetables" for clarity as the route and corridor timetables will apparently continue to be printed.



fairviewroad said:


> Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.
> 
> I assume this is from some sort of internal communique but I would be curious as to its origin. There have been rumors of this sort of thing in the past.


The April 20 statement has been quoted in several forums and so far no one who would be in the know has stated it is incorrect. Certainly appears to be an internal communication which makes sense as Amtrak is not going to issue a formal press release announcing they are dropping the printed version of the system timetable.

With all the cost cutting going on in the closing days of the Boardman era, this move does not surprise me. Ending the printed system timetable was going to happen eventually in the age of the internet, tablet computers, and smartphones. It is only a question of when it will take place. Appears that 2016 is the year. However, I would be interested to find out exactly how it cost to print the system timetable every 6 months as I figure this move will only directly save a small amount of money.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 21, 2016)

I'm a Luddite that prefers printed materials but do have a Smart Phone ( it's the operator that's dumb!) and usedto have a PC till it died!

I'll miss the National Timetable also but understand that practical matters require Amtrak to try to cut waste wherever they can. As was said the amount of money that is actually saved is pocket change in the total budget,! ( cutting a few executives @ 60 Mass would save alot more!)


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## me_little_me (Apr 21, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Of course there's an intangible benefit to a printed timetable. But the money used to produce those can also be used for other items that have intangible benefits, too. At a certain point it is simply a judgement call as to the best way to spend the money. Obviously not everyone agrees with the decision to get rid of the printed timetable.


Unfortunately, there is no money to produce it. It's not like Amtrak is a profit-making or even a break-even operation. It loses money so every item deleted, whether timetables or meals or ... go to reducing the loss to satisfy congress that Amtrak is not just an organization of wastrels.

Alas, more of this is in the future.


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## SanDiegan (Apr 21, 2016)

Just for the record, I am tech savvy and have a lot of "devices." Still prefer the printed National Timetable for planning trips, or when traveling. It has everything I need in one place. I can see changes and updates on my phone, if necessary. The amount of money saved is probably equal to one useless employee in Washington. Pretty cheap marketing.


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## Hal (Apr 21, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.
> 
> I assume this is from some sort of internal communique but I would be curious as to its origin. There have been rumors of this sort of thing in the past.


It is true.


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## OBS (Apr 21, 2016)

As HAL said; A notice was issued yesterday to employees, which was pretty verbatim to the OP message.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 21, 2016)

Disappointing to know that hard copies are not going to be available. I am one who also finds such to be valuable in planning future trips.

Carnival Cruise Lines seems also to have done away with hard copy brochures. I would like to consider another Carnival cruise, but, given their web site's difficulty in "playing nice" with my computer, I cannot do much searching.

Is this Amtrak's future for me as well?


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2016)

If you want a hard copy then by all means print one out yourself. If you don't have a computer or printer then go to Kinkos or another equivalent service. Expecting Amtrak to print these items for free makes no sense in the Mica/Shuster era.


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## Alexandria Nick (Apr 21, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Sometimes I almost think ill-advised decisions like this are made by a 25 year old intern who thinks everybody has a smart phone.


On the contrary: the mandate to shift away from printed material to electronic distribution for government agencies predates the smartphone itself. The original GAO recommendation dates to 2001. At the agency I do tech editing and graphic design, we've functionally eliminated printed versions of our office's publications. Five years ago, we printed hundreds of copies of the budget. This year, I think we printed 30.

In fact, we've even stopped designing for print. We worry more about whether or not something will be too difficult to make 508 compliant than how it will print. As far as we're concerned, the end product is a PDF. I've started submitting more and more designs that are landscape oriented because they fit on monitors better than the traditional portrait/print marriage.


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## niemi24s (Apr 21, 2016)

I can't think of a better way to introduce Amtrak to someone who's not too savvy with the internet (or not even online) than to order a copy of the System Timetable for delivery to their door. Have done it several times. It's a shame to see that that option eliminated. Anyone with the notion that all are online has their head in the sand.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2016)

And the reason you can't print the online copy yourself to show them is...?

If Amtrak was preventing you from printing your own copy I could understand the blowback. But that's not the case at all. Who besides Amtrak was still printing their full network schedule in 2016?


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## Cina (Apr 21, 2016)

Also, your local library has computers. And most likely printers.


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## JayPea (Apr 21, 2016)

Even though I am one of those who is still having a hard time adjusting to this 21st century thing  I found that on my last Amtrak trip a month ago it was much easier to download the timetables for each route onto my phone and consult those rather than leaf through pages of the timetable or keep track of the individual route timetables. I have two more trips coming up in the future and I have downloaded the timetable for each route I will be taking as well as the complete timetable. As others have pointed out one can always print out online copies if they don't own a smartphone or want to lug a laptop or tablet around.


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## NW cannonball (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm thinking about the "off-grid" ridership. And hoping (and expecting they will find or already have a work-around)

There's usually one or two Amish families on the EB, for example, and they don't do smartphones, or PC's or any phones at all, mostly. And sure don't respond to on-line surveys


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 22, 2016)

I saw this way back in 1972: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19721029&item=0028

Maybe for a large city like PHL they can "print" or make an online file of the various destinations you can get from one city to others and what connections you make (if any). In this timetable, they had separate charts for the NEC and for national trains so they probably could do the same.


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## Cina (Apr 22, 2016)

Amish riders could be inconvenienced by this, it's true. The Amish who live in our community hire drivers, ask neighbors to charge their buggy headlights in their garages, etc. So I'm sure they could ask someone to print a timetable for them if absolutely necessary. I'm still of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the costs on this.


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## niemi24s (Apr 22, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> And the reason you can't print the online copy yourself to show them is...?


There's always _something_, isn't there? How about my printer is lousy, broken or I don't even have a printer - is that good enough for you? Or maybe the main attraction is the big fold-out route map behind the front cover. Sheesh!! If all else fails, I guess I could always hire a scribe.

Sorry I even brought it up.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2016)

There's always the likes of _Staples _who will gladly let you part with some money and print out something for you.


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## JoeBas (Apr 22, 2016)

How much are these worth to you disappointed folks? 'Cause I'll gladly set up an account to print them out and put them in a nice spiral binder with a quality cover for y'all, for the low low low low price of about $20 an issue... PM now, operators are standing by...


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## FriskyFL (Apr 22, 2016)

Bummer. The hardcopy system timetable makes for great bathroom reading material.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 22, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > And the reason you can't print the online copy yourself to show them is...?
> ...


It's a perfectly legitimate question in my view. You didn't acknowledge this possibility in your post so I asked. If Amtrak was failing to provide digital versions that were easily printed at home, or at any nearby commercial printing service, I could better understand the complaining. But as currently implemented this decision would seem to save money for Amtrak while still allowing folks to print their own as needed. This change seems completely reasonable to me and I'm not the kind of person who glosses over mistakes or sweeps things under the rug if I think Amtrak did something wrong.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm going to miss the printed versions of the timetables. They always made great reading. Quite frankly clinking around on Amtrak's site for various routes just isn't the same. But the handwriting has been on the wall for sometime, it was bound to happen. I'll guess I'll take the "kind" advice of the various cranks that hang out here and print my own.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 22, 2016)

FriskyFL said:


> Bummer. The hardcopy system timetable makes for great bathroom reading material.


Get with the times. Phones & tablets are the new bathroom reading material.


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## Carolina Special (Apr 22, 2016)

If you don't drop the phone or tablet into the water.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 22, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> FriskyFL said:
> 
> 
> > Bummer. The hardcopy system timetable makes for great bathroom reading material.
> ...


I still prefer my "hard" morning newspaper, and I also keep a backup supply of mags and catalogs on the tank lid for when I have longer court reigning over the Kingdom


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 22, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > FriskyFL said:
> ...


I used to have Reader's Digests in my bathroom but now get them electronically. I'm so far behind in reading them now because their on my iPad and I only take my iPhone with me.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 22, 2016)

I too keep a supply of paper reading materials in the throne room, and make calls on my rotary dial phone ( What's that Grandpa?) while reigning over the kingdom!


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## jis (Apr 22, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> I too keep a supply of paper reading materials in the throne room, and make calls on my rotary dial phone ( What's that Grandpa?) while reigning over the kingdom!


You mean you have already given up your special preserved manual exchange four party line? Tut tut


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## A Voice (Apr 22, 2016)

jis said:


> There's always the likes of _Staples _who will gladly let you part with some money and print out something for you.


Staples will indeed print something for you, but how much for having it bound in a format similar to the now defunct system timetable (as opposed to a bunch of loose-leaf sheets of paper to get lost and out of correct order)?


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## niemi24s (Apr 22, 2016)

Now that this thread has degenerated into a mindless quibble over digital versus printed forms of text, methinks it's time to bow out with a

<yawn!>


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## NS VIA Fan (Apr 22, 2016)

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > There's always the likes of _Staples _who will gladly let you part with some money and print out something for you.
> ...


Staples also sells 2" or 3"....3 holes binders and will also punch the pages for you. Now stand it up on your shelf and it's good for 2 or 3 years worth of timetables!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 22, 2016)

NS VIA Fan said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


They'll even bind it for you.

https://www.staplescopyandprint.ca/Services/Finishing.aspx


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## Gulfwind2 (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm far more concerned about what this does to the Amish/Senior citizen contingency of Amtrak riders than I am about what this does to affect me. I've always been a fan of the printed system timetable, and I'm not even 20 years old (many would think that younger frequent riders unanimously favor the smartphone solution to the matter). I also feel that this hurts Amtrak's ability to market long distance trains to new riders. As some posters have already noted, many NEC riders are oblivious to the existence of long distance trains. The idea that they will all simply "look it up" or take the time to go to Kinkos when they want to deliver a "hold it in your hand" timetable to a friend/relative who is interested in train travel seems somewhat far-fetched when compared to the convenience of picking up a system timetable hanging on the literature rack at your home station.


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## neroden (Apr 23, 2016)

This is a bit thoughtless. Issuing the full-bulk timetables in large numbers every 6 months was overkill. But they'll want to be issuing system timetables again.

I would anticipate it'll eventually come back in some form. Perhaps a smaller format (omitting 20 pages of station addresses would make it a lot smaller, and there are entire pages of advertisements, and 10 pages of policies in the back), and a lower print run, and it'll probably only be issued when there's a major timetable change such as a new service or a schedule shift of 4+ hours (not every six months). But the printed timetable is a valuable quick-reference for where you can go; the website is definitely not a substitute. I suspect once the current bout of fiscal lunacy is over, an occasional paper issuance, when there are major service changes, will happen.


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## jphjaxfl (Apr 23, 2016)

KnightRail said:


> National timetables will still be created and posted online as .pdf files as they are now. If a paper copy is desired, one can print at home or place the .pdf on a USB thumb drive and take it down to Staples copy and print center or a local print shop and have it printed. This change is long overdue. It's time that limited financial resources go to things like actually operating trains and not pet obsessions such as archaic printed system timetables.


I agree 100%. I rarely ever use a published printed National Timetable because I can get all the information I need on line and its often more up to date than the last published timetable. I will add that I do have a collection of Railroad passenger train timetables dating to the 1930s and Official Guides dating to 1901. I have a collection of Amtrak timetables from the 70s, 80s, 90s and more recent, but I have stopped asking for the National Timetable over the last 5 years because I can use my smart phone, tablet or laptop to get the information I need, buy tickets or anything else. Actually, I found the National Timetable had become mundane because any changes except for the NEC seemed to minimal. When I compared Amtrak's National Timetable compared to some of the better Railroad Timetables such as the Pennsylvania Railroads System Timetable which included lots of interesting information, I become depressed that Amtrak's is such a skeletal system. I am happy that Amtrak has found a sensible way to save money besides targeting food service.


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## niemi24s (Apr 23, 2016)

Gulfwind2 said:


> . . .the convenience of picking up a system timetable hanging on the literature rack at your home station.


Perhaps convenient for you and most others but for the rest of us, maybe not so convenient. My closest station is 215 miles away as the crow flies and for some its probably farther. That's why this... https://www.amtrak.com/order-contact-amtrak-publications ...made it so convenient to get one to any interested party. I live so far out in the sticks there are many up here who aren't aware of passenger train service in the US except for subways in the big cities and commuter trains between the close ones.

The possibility of having Amtrak simply mailing a System Timetable to them was, in my opinion, an effective way of spreading the word. And for those who intimated I should print one myself or have it done for me - kindly remove your heads from your respective... [oh, never mind].


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 23, 2016)

Last trip I booked Amtrak sent me a copy of the national timetable by post free of charge to England, it was invaluable in not only planning my trip but also cross referencing with a ticket agent in the UK who naturally wasn't up to speed with the details of booking a transcontinental train journey. Having to do sit there on my tablet in the travel agent rather than having a paper version to reference to is going to make it a hell of a lot harder.

(Yes I know I could print out and bind together, but Id be scared of losing a page or putting it in the wrong order and then making a major error with my booking (yes I am that dozy)

If they wanted to cut costs they could have started charging for postage or even for the publication it self. I would certainly buy it


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 23, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> Gulfwind2 said:
> 
> 
> > . . .the convenience of picking up a system timetable hanging on the literature rack at your home station.
> ...


Well, now you can email them the PDF and they can print it out if they want a paper copy.


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## WoodyinNYC (Apr 23, 2016)

At railroad.net ...

"george o'keefe wrote (and I've chopped it down):… 1 million copies … implies a cost probably in 7 figures (if not 8). ... for this size, with some full color pages and the rest three-color process, u[SIZE=.95em]nit costs [/SIZE][SIZE=.95em]could go well above $1, possibly close to $10. Throw in shipping costs [and postage]... pretty substantial savings for Amtrak."[/SIZE]

And I replied (slightly edited)

A very helpful calculation. Suppose it's somehow off by twice the maximum savings. Not printing the System Timetable would then actually save just $5 million a year.

In perspective, cutting the diner from the Star may save $5 or $6 million a year, iirc. Boardman's recent memo said ridership was off system-wide, causing the operating deficit to run above budget by at least $30 million, iirc. Cost cutting is urgent.

If dropping printed System Schedules saves $5 million or only a mere $1 million, well then, it must be done.


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 23, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> At railroad.net ...
> 
> And I wrote (slightly edited):
> 
> ...


If it causes a lost in ridership and revenue of greater value than it saves then it isn't a saving at all


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## fairviewroad (Apr 23, 2016)

OBS said:


> As HAL said; A notice was issued yesterday to employees, which was pretty verbatim to the OP message.


Thanks. Like I said, it sounded plausible and I wasn't questioning its veracity. I just like to know that there is some sort of official source.


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## niemi24s (Apr 23, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, now you can email them the PDF and they can print it out if they want a paper copy.


You mean it hasn't sunk in yet?

These folks I'm attempting to introduce to travel by Amtrak with their own copy of System Timetable are my neighbors. They are not online, have no interest in getting online and wouldn't know what to do even if they _did_ manage to get online. They have no internet service, PC's or any other type of PDA. We live hundreds of miles and perhaps six hours from the closest Amtrak station. These are not urban yuppies like most on this forum who live near their closest station and are in constant internet contact with their PDA's and earbuds. And even if I felt like doing so, I'm not sure my cheap little printer and I could could manage to print 141 pages in color without running out of ink or patience.

And while there is an Office Max/Office Depot about 25 miles away, I'm fairly certain the cost of getting a System Timetable printed and bound would make them say "Forget it!"

Has it sunk in now?


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## jis (Apr 23, 2016)

So how many of your neighbors have you convinced to take an Amtrak trip using the printed timetables as the sole tool, and what was the net additional revenue? Just curious.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 23, 2016)

Personally, I'd think some of the books "out there" about Amtrak and rail travel would be more convincing the the system time table. In fact, I'd think the timetables may make it all look too confusing for a newbie.

A couple of examples

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/amtrak-across-america-john-a-fostik/1113060830?ean=9781583882979#productInfoTabs

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/all-aboard-jim-loomis/1101368149?ean=9781569761892


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## A Voice (Apr 23, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> And while there is an Office Max/Office Depot about 25 miles away, I'm fairly certain the cost of getting a System Timetable printed and bound would make them say "Forget it!"
> 
> Has it sunk in now?





AmtrakBlue said:


> Personally, I'd think some of the books "out there" about Amtrak and rail travel would be more convincing the the system time table. In fact, I'd think the timetables may make it all look too confusing for a newbie.
> 
> A couple of examples
> 
> ...


The books may be great, but the critical difference is that there is a charge for the books, while the national timetable was free upon request. How many hotels, resorts, or travel oriented companies do you know which charge for their brochures?

Automobile manufacturers distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just _hoping_ to sell you a car.

Cruise lines distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just_ hoping _you'll book a cruise.

Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently _hoping_ the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.


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## Alexandria Nick (Apr 23, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently _hoping_ the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.


Pretty shoddy marketing, if your marketing mainly consists of a printed book that you largely find when you're already inside an Amtrak station.


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## trainman74 (Apr 23, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Automobile manufacturers distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just _hoping_ to sell you a car.
> 
> Cruise lines distribute attractive, color, glossy booklets just_ hoping _you'll book a cruise.


From what I've seen, both entities have really cut down on these in recent years, because all the information is available online.



> Amtrak - a transportation company - doesn't distribute a system timetable, apparently _hoping_ the potential customer will search out the information online for themselves. Marketing doesn't work that way.


I wonder if they'll produce something along the lines of the old "Amtrak America"/"Amtrak Travel Planner" brochures which contained general information about the routes, details of "what it's like on a train," and so on -- just not actual schedules. That's actually a better analog to the auto and cruise brochures than the system timetable.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2016)

A National Timetable is not a marketing brochure. I agree that it would be a good idea to create and make available marketing brochures for the national network, like for example NYSDOT does for the Empire Service. It could be something along the lines of the Amtrak Vacation brochure that already exists.


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## niemi24s (Apr 23, 2016)

jis said:


> A National Timetable is not a marketing brochure.


I disagree. It may not have been originally _intended _to be a marketing brochure, but I can use it for anything I so desire. Anything. Get one sent to others. Line the bottom of the bird cage. Whatever I choose, as long as they remain available.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2016)

Even if the whole thing costs several million dollars to just give your friends to line their bird cage. I guess we will just agree to disagree and carry on with life, won't we?


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## west point (Apr 23, 2016)

This dropping of the national timetable is making an assumption not based in fact. Not every one will or can use the internet. To make persons who do not use the internet IMO is discrimination. What about Quakers, Amish, and others who do not believe in it ? For those who live too far from a node land line internet is not possible.

Many persons are not computer savvy also. Would be an interesting suit under ADA as well.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 23, 2016)

west point said:


> Many persons are not computer savvy also. Would be an interesting suit under ADA as well.


Where would this fall under ADA?


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## jebr (Apr 23, 2016)

The individual route schedules are not being discontinued as far as I know. If someone needs a printed schedule those are available for them.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 23, 2016)

I believe the issue is there won't be any more national timetables printed. I believe there will still be local timetables printed and available in stations to pick up and I can get the schedules of the trains that serve my area at my local station. If I do LD travels, I can pick up schedules when I travel there. I'm thinking most of us don't need every single Amtrak schedule in print form.


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## JayPea (Apr 23, 2016)

How do the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and the like along with the non-tech savvy or those with no access to the Internet fly without printed timetables? In fact as has been noted earlier, many airlines don't even have downloadable timetables. Those folks find a way to travel by plane without any problems.


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## neroden (Apr 23, 2016)

Honestly, it's a mistake to *never* print National Timetables, but when the timetable hasn't really changed significantly in years...

Next time Amtrak adds three new services at once, I think they should go all out and print a special edition of the National Timetable, emphasizing all the new connections which are possible. Here's hoping that happens in my lifetime.


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## chakk (Apr 24, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Take good care of that collection-you have a National Treasure as they say on that PBS appraisal show. A friend of mine in Dallas has put together one of the world's leading collection of Airline Timetables and is terrified to think what that might be worth! I consider myself lucky for when I was a younglin I regularly went around to the travel agencies in Arlington Heights, IL and gathered up timetables and salted them away. Unfortunately when I went off to college and the folks closed the house, many were disposed of, but many still survive in my collection
> 
> I only wish I could have gotten some of the floor standing display models!


In 1956 on one of my many nearly annual summer LD train trips through Chicago (Grand Central and C&NW stations), I stopped in the C&NW station ticket office and plucked two of every railroad system timetable on display in their rack -- one for me and one for my oldest brother who was not on that trip. Sadly, I lost track of all of my set from that Golden Era.


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## Gulfwind2 (Apr 24, 2016)

chakk said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Take good care of that collection-you have a National Treasure as they say on that PBS appraisal show. A friend of mine in Dallas has put together one of the world's leading collection of Airline Timetables and is terrified to think what that might be worth! I consider myself lucky for when I was a younglin I regularly went around to the travel agencies in Arlington Heights, IL and gathered up timetables and salted them away. Unfortunately when I went off to college and the folks closed the house, many were disposed of, but many still survive in my collection
> ...


Let me ask a question which only means something to those who weren't alive in the pre-Amtrak days. In 1956 could anyone have foreseen that there would be a time when there was no passenger rail system timetable in circulation at all? Or did anyone even anticipate that the passenger trains would lose the fight they were fighting in the 50's against the highways and airlines?


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## afigg (Apr 24, 2016)

JayPea said:


> How do the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and the like along with the non-tech savvy or those with no access to the Internet fly without printed timetables? In fact as has been noted earlier, many airlines don't even have downloadable timetables. Those folks find a way to travel by plane without any problems.


Quakers? There may be a few meeting houses or groups who might be connected to the Society of Friends that reject modern technology, but Quakers as a group live in the modern world. Quakers are an entirely different religion and cultural group from the Amish and Mennonites, don't mix them.

As for Amish and Mennonites that don't use modern technology or electricity at home, there is the greater question of how they will be able to travel, shop, and interact with the modern world as it moves increasingly on-line and to computers. Everything from paying taxes & bills, buying goods or property, filling out government documents, travel by bus or train. Amtrak moving the system timetable to a PDF version only is just a small part of a long term shift to moving away from paper documents, forms, and tickets to all electronic formats.

I was in DC Union Station several months ago, exiting from the Metro station. I stopped by a fare vending machine in the Metro station to add a few bucks to my Smartrip card and saw what appeared to be an Amish family or group looking at one of the fare machines trying to figure it out. They looked to be at a lost. To be fair, that is a common response of tourists when they try to use the Metro vending machines for the first time with the bewildering table of station to station fares at the top, instructions all over the front, and the limited display and interface. But the Amish family looked to be totally lost. They had presumably arrived on Amtrak and were going to visit someplace in DC. I thought about trying to help them, but I had to catch an Amtrak train. I hope they were able to get assistance from the Metro station attendant or another passerby on how to buy Smartrip cards (with cash) and navigate the Metro system.

In an age where the modern world is increasingly moving to a cashless system except for small purchases, to smart phones, navigation apps, and the internet, how are the Amish, Mennonites, and people that don't use modern technology, going to be able to travel or deal with the rest of the world in 10, 20, 30 years? Going to be ever more difficult.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 24, 2016)

> hey looked to be at a lost. To be fair, that is a common response of tourists when they try to use the Metro vending machines for the first time with the bewildering table of station to station fares at the top, instructions all over the front, and the limited display and interface.


Are you sure it wasn't me. :giggle: When I was down there in March I wanted to load some $$ on my SmartCard, which I had gotten when I was down there last year for the gathering. I was a little confused as to which machine to use because of all the different instructions.

Back in 2012, I was trying to find the Reagan/National airport on the list to know how much ticket I needed to buy.


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## Carolina Special (Apr 24, 2016)

I was totally lost myself last November when I used the Smartcard in DC for the first time. And I'm not even Amish. Or particularly smart in the use of transit cards...

I had enough trouble with the fare cards and they had to get rid of those.


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## tricia (Apr 24, 2016)

neroden said:


> Next time Amtrak adds three new services at once, I think they should go all out and print a special edition of the National Timetable, emphasizing all the new connections which are possible. Here's hoping that happens in my lifetime.


Arguably, we need printed national timetables more NOW, when the system is so skeletal--especially since Amtrak's online booking system doesn't reliably show all possible connections. I've spent many an hour leafing back and forth in a printed national timetable, trying to work out which (if any) trains will get me from point A to point B in a reasonable time, with layovers in places I might actually want to visit. Much harder to do that online.

I do like the cost-saving idea, floated in a previous post, of printing a pared-down (and presumably less costly) version of the national timetable by eliminating a lot of the non-timetable info such as station details, baggage rules, diagrams of roomettes, etc.

At the very least, in the absence of a printed national timetable Amtrak needs to print and widely distribute a version of the fold-out system map that's been at the front of the printed timetables, one showing the names/numbers of all the long-distance routes and perhaps on the back expanded maps of Northeast Corridor and California trains.


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## jis (Apr 24, 2016)

Traditionally, national full system timetables spanning all possible routes and railroads have never been free though. The free thing is an Amtrak innovation, partly because Amtrak is the only remaining transcon passenger railroad. However it is missing whole host of very useful connections to very significant regional service that you have painstakingly hunt down.


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## neroden (Apr 24, 2016)

What tricia said. The online faciliites are simply not suitable for figuring out what you can do with the Amtrak system. A printed timetable should really be geared towards... well... towards the person who's trying to *explore* what trips they might be able to take. This does, arguably, call for some radical format changes. And certainly for much less frequent printing of timetables: you only really should print timetables when major new connections become available.


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## jis (Apr 24, 2016)

Or you could build a better online facility making full use of dynamic hypertext generated from a powerful search engine, that lets one explore way better than one can using a pile of paper. This is not disagreeing but merely augmenting what Tricia and Nathaniel said.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 24, 2016)

jis said:


> Or you could build a better online facility making full use of dynamic hypertext generated from a powerful search engine, that lets one explore way better than one can using a pile of paper. This is not disagreeing but merely augmenting what Tricia and Nathaniel said.


**LIKE***


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## chakk (Apr 24, 2016)

Even by the mid-1950's there was significant numbers of train-off petitions to the Interstate Commerce Commission, as well as consolidation of trains on continuing routes.

I remember the loss of passenger service on some small upper Michigan railroads, and the discontinuation of all B&O service north of Baltimore.

The decline accelerated rapidly in the 1960's, and I do think all long distance trains would have disappeared if not for the formation of Amtrak.


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## trainman74 (Apr 24, 2016)

Gulfwind2 said:


> Let me ask a question which only means something to those who weren't alive in the pre-Amtrak days. In 1956 could anyone have foreseen that there would be a time when there was no passenger rail system timetable in circulation at all?


I'm sure someone _could,_ but it would have been an extremely prescient science-fiction writer who would have come up with the situation being discussed in this thread -- that the railroad would discontinue printing and distributing a physical system timetable because most people would have the ability to nearly instantly call up and read the schedules on a screen in their home or office, or on the screen of a mobile computer that they would normally keep in a pocket or purse.


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## west point (Apr 24, 2016)

As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed. From other posts it seems that if someone desires to go from point A to point B wan is not in the system an agent is the only way to get a ticket and might have problems. With over 500 locations to travel to the computer system needs to be able to construct over 500 factorial city pairs. Each location added adds total number of destinations minus one to load into computer. Airlines have it much easier in that most flights from a city only go to finite locations and look for flights from those connections to final destination.

Of course the Amtrak computer can do that but not as well especially when 3 or more trips are involved.

Expect thruway bus connections multiply routing problems.


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## JoeBas (Apr 24, 2016)

This is clearly an attempt by the Bilderbergs and the NWO to deliver a coup de gras to our National Train system by making it impossible for elderly or technophobic people to figure out how to use it!!! We must resist!!!!!

FREEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!


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## neroden (Apr 24, 2016)

west point said:


> As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed.


Not just one schedule, *all possible* schedules with *all possible* layovers from *all points* to *all points*, presented conveniently... not gonna happen....

When I use paper timetables, I spread data out over an area 5 to 10 times the size of my computer screen. Yeah, I can print it out looseleaf, and that is probably more useful than the existing small timetable booklet. Though it's best to have a big map too. I think some people don't understand the use case here: nothing "online" is any good for the sort of thing Tricia and I do. Fancy hypertext garbage is really worthless compared to a large pile of paper for this sort of thing, because none of us own big enough screens. Get me one of Bill Gates's 10-foot by 20-foot screens and you can start talking about doing this digitally.

Anyway, this use case already calls for a substantially different timetable layout. Actually it calls for a huge unfolding map with the key connection-point timetables printed directly on the map. This might be a much better marketing device than the existing timetable.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 25, 2016)

jis said:


> It could be something along the lines of the Amtrak Vacation brochure that already exists.


Exactly. People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m.. They don't care what time it stops at Green River or Winnemucca. They are purchasing an experience. Amtrak continues to market that experience through print and online means.

I mean, yeah of course those travelers will need to know when to show up at the train station. But that's really an ancillary detail. That Amtrak Vacations brochure is still available in print and would make the perfect gift for the elderly Amish technophobe in your life.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2016)

neroden said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > As long as the Amtrak computer system cannot automatically develop a schedule from any point to any point timetables are going to be needed.
> ...


Nathaniel, my idea was to create a huge active map, where you can click on any connecting point to pop up the arrival/departure schedule duly filtered if necessary for only those routes that are of interest and such. I think people are missing the point when they bring up the NP completeness issues with an unconstrained search. The search seldom is unconstrained when someone is looking for something specific. One could simply declare the impossibility of a search and give up. Fortunately Google did not and of course the rest is history.

The whole trick is in creating friendly human interfaces together with addressing the Use Cases (which you rightly point out are central to the issue) to drive adequate amount of constraining of the problem to provide meaningful, usable results addressing the use cases.


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## JoeBas (Apr 25, 2016)

It seems like it would be child's play for someone with a bare minimum of skills to put together some quick java/flash thing that lest you click on departure stations, select when you want to leave, then click on destination stations, and add intermediate stations and lengths of stoppage, then click "DO IT" and come up with a series of routing options. There's not even pricing buckets involved in that!

I run ticket to ride on my dang cellphone and it can tell whether stuff is hooked up or not. How hard can this be? Do we really need to continue to chisel stuff on stone tablets?


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 25, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> They don't care what time it stops at Green River or Winnemucca. They are purchasing an experience.


Ummm...everyone should care about Winnemucca. Things would be better if people cared about Winnemucca...since it is so fun to say.

Winnemucca. Winnemucca.

It's like saying

 (the link is clean h34r: ).


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## neroden (Apr 25, 2016)

jis said:


> I think people are missing the point when they bring up the NP completeness issues with an unconstrained search. The search seldom is unconstrained when someone is looking for something specific


Tricia and I are specifically doing nearly-unconstrained searches. I think I mentioned that? I know Tricia did.
It's all very well to have this other stuff but we have a use case which ought to be met.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2016)

But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?


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## niemi24s (Apr 25, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m..


I'm constantly amazed by the wisdom of those who know exactly what everybody else cares about. Simply astounding!


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## fairviewroad (Apr 25, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > People who want a "rail vacation" don't care whether the California Zephyr leaves Denver at 8 a.m. or at 11 a.m..
> ...


Welcome to the internet, dude.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 25, 2016)

On my last trip, before I boarded the Palmetto at Savannah, I picked up a printed copy of the Atlantic Coast Service timetable. It was handy reference during g the trip, allowing me to tell whether or not we were on schedule, and certainly more convenient than fighting the spotty Wifi to. Rid g up a barely readable PDF on my phone.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 25, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> On my last trip, before I boarded the Palmetto at Savannah, I picked up a printed copy of the Atlantic Coast Service timetable. It was handy reference during g the trip, allowing me to tell whether or not we were on schedule, and certainly more convenient than fighting the spotty Wifi to. Rid g up a barely readable PDF on my phone.


The printed timetables for individual trains will still be available. Plus, if a PDF is "barely readable" on your phone, get a new phone.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2016)

Also, if you know what route you are going on why would you not pre-load the PDF on your hand held device, thus freeing you of the need for working WiFi to get hold of the necessary timetable? Indeed I always have a PDF of the entire National Timetable available on my handheld device.


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## neroden (Apr 25, 2016)

jis said:


> But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?


So that I buy tickets? DUH?

You do realize that the purpose of an unconstrained search is to see what trips I might take. If I can't do the search, I *don't take any trip*.

I can't count the number of bus lines, airlines, and so on which have *lost my business* because they made it impossible to do an unconstrained search of their system. There's a reason I've never travelled on VIA Rail...

At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.

Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.

This is a matter of attracting customers. A certain percentage of customers prefer to do their own trip planning. If you make it impossible for us to do this conveniently, **we will drive*.*

----

This is similar to the issue of places which only offer "turn by turn directions" in their brochures. Many people like them, which is why it's useful to offer them. Other people (like me) detest them utterly and want a map. If you don't provide the map, *you lose a third of your potential customers*.

Even though Amazon.com has gone to great efforts to make it possible to search for an item and find it immediately, they *also* realized that some people want to run through every single possible item in a category to compare and contrast -- so they have a mode which *lets you do that*. This is necessary to appeal to a certain, rather large, percentage of customers.

----

The reason I rant about this is that there are a lot of very stupid businesses which really think they can get away with "just plug in your destination into our system and we'll tell you how to get there". No, that's no good. If you do that, I do not want to do business with you, and in that regard, I represent a minority of people -- but a *large* minority of people *with money to spend*. Some of us want to be able to see the whole picture. I want Amtrak to continue making the effort to attract customers in my category.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 25, 2016)

I've booked hundreds of trips on VIA trains, both LD and Corridor, and I'm not exactly Bill Gates when it comes to High Tech.

I will admit that via.ca isn't the best site around but Amtrak.com isn't exactly the easiest to use although it is slowly getting better!

Not riding VIA is your Loss, try it, you'll like it!


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## jis (Apr 25, 2016)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > But I don't see any reason for Amtrak to spend money supporting your unconstrained search beyond just giving you access to the timetable in a machine usable form. Do you? Why should Amtrak spend any money in supporting your hobby, which is more or less useless for most typical Amtrak users?
> ...


So by your own admission Amtrak has not taken anything away that you need. Admittedly they could provide you with the same information in a slightly more useful form. But apparently they already serve your hobby adequately and you are happy with what you already have. So I don't understand what you are ranting and moaning about. 

Of course this should not preclude Amtrak from supporting more common use cases of less sophisticated users of their time table and reservation system, I was talking about those use case, not yours. Yours is already adequately addressed.


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## afigg (Apr 26, 2016)

neroden said:


> At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.
> 
> Try getting a system timetable out of VIA. I don't think they have one. It was very hard even to find a timetable for a single route.


The VIA website could certainly be improved, but it still only took me a few minutes to find this 30 page October 2015 Bilingual System timetable (PDF) on their website. Don't know why they put the timetable on a brochures page (which I don't see how to click to from the pull-down menus) and not on the schedule page, but they do appear to have a system timetable buried on their website. A search for "timetables" in the VIA website search box found the brochure link.

While we may knock Amtrak's IT efforts as the underlying reservation system needs to be modernized, I will say that Amtrak's website is much better than VIA's.


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## neroden (Apr 26, 2016)

jis said:


> Yours is already adequately addressed.


Yeah, honestly, it is.

I'm just worried about "slippery slope". I don't want Amtrak to sink to VIA's level.

I mean, look at the constant degradation of food service. One thoughtless cut seems to lead to another thoughtless cut...


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## neroden (Apr 26, 2016)

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.
> ...


Thank you. I had not managed to find VIA's extremely well-hidden system timetable in over three years of searching.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 26, 2016)

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > At least Amtrak will still have the complete system timetables conveniently downloadable from their website, so this isn't really that bad.
> ...


Nice find!


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## Eric S (Apr 26, 2016)

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > neroden said:
> ...


Wow, glad to know it exists. I had never been able to find it either.


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## dlagrua (Apr 26, 2016)

No more printed timetables is like everything else in American business that is being cut. Years back the printing and paper cost was on them, now the printing and paper cost is on you!


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## railiner (Apr 27, 2016)

While I readily admit to lamenting the loss of the National Timetables, in reality, I believe the people that miss them the most are timetable collector's. You can still get printed copies of the different routes, and still get the information in one place electronically.

That said, mention was made in an earlier post about the ads included in the system timetable...wouldn't it be possible to push for more ads or a sustaining major sponsor to pick up the entire cost of publishing a system timetable?

Isn't that the case for the "seat-pocket" magazine ("Arrive")? I don't believe it costs Amtrak anything to distribute that publication....

Perhaps they even earn some revenue for distributing it...


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## mlhughes0522 (Apr 27, 2016)

Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?


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## Eric S (Apr 27, 2016)

mlhughes0522 said:


> Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?


I think you're saying "It makes sense but what if someone doesn't have a computer or iPad (like older adults)? How are they supposed to get schedules?"

If so, as has been mentioned here, individual route schedules are still available in print form. And one can still call Amtrak by phone. Older adults manage to travel by bus and plane, and bus lines and airlines have generally stopped providing printed system timetables.


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## neroden (Apr 28, 2016)

Eric S said:


> mlhughes0522 said:
> 
> 
> > Make since but what if someone don't have computer or iPad like older adults how they get schedule?
> ...


Which is part of why I haven't taken an intercity bus in years, incidentally. I don't take routes which don't have timetables. Ever. This is way more common than you might think. This rules out Trailways which doesn't publish schedules. Greyhound doesn't follow any useful route where I am. Shortline still publishes a schedule.


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## Eric S (Apr 28, 2016)

I think it's rather ridiculous that so few intercity bus lines have full schedules available online (rather than just point-to-point schedules). Too much effort to produce and update them?

At the same time, there is also a not insignificant portion of the public which cannot read and understand a timetable - for them, point-to-point schedules are all that work.


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## railiner (Apr 28, 2016)

neroden said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > mlhughes0522 said:
> ...


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## railiner (Apr 28, 2016)

railiner said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


You can get complete Adirondack-Pine Hill or New York Trailways timetables at all major terminals. You can also get online schedule information.


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## neroden (Apr 28, 2016)

No you can't. Sorry, I've actually tried. We have a Trailways station in Ithaca, you know?

Theoretically we have one, that is. Try to get a schedule out of them. None online, none on paper.

Shortline publishes a schedule, making it the only practical bus option out of Ithaca. (Well, there's now also a Cornell-sponsored bus express to NYC. And a third private point-to-point bus express to NYC.)


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## CCC1007 (Apr 28, 2016)

neroden said:


> No you can't. Sorry, I've actually tried. We have a Trailways station in Ithaca, you know?
> 
> Theoretically we have one, that is. Try to get a schedule out of them. None online, none on paper.
> 
> Shortline publishes a schedule, making it the only practical bus option out of Ithaca. (Well, there's now also a Cornell-sponsored bus express to NYC. And a third private point-to-point bus express to NYC.)


He did say "major." Could it be that Ithaca just didn't make the cut?


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## neroden (Apr 29, 2016)

Ithaca isn't even listed in the timetables which I've seen at other stations. Trailways buses stop there. I have no idea who gets on them or where they go.

This does prove, however, that the timetables are not complete system timetables!


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## railiner (Apr 29, 2016)

I see what you mean...they don't publish the complete timetable online, but the booking site does show the scheduled trips and fares available for each date....

https://trailwaysny.com/purchase-tickets/?webstore_sid=e7f26ee5-fd16-4e8f-aed9-811ace52b1f9

One other source is Greyhound's online timetable #170, which does show the complete service... (Click on the left side for the April 20, 2016 revision)

http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.html

I am sorry that Ithaca doesn't carry a supply of the printed timetables....if you would call 800-858-8555 and request them to send you the complete printed timetables, they may do that.

If not, send me a PM, and I will personally mail them to you.....


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## Train2104 (Apr 29, 2016)

Eric S said:


> At the same time, there is also a not insignificant portion of the public which cannot read and understand a timetable - for them, point-to-point schedules are all that work.


And this is the truth. I see a LOT of this on the commuter railroads - the paper timetables are at each station and also tacked up on the wall, but almost nobody reads them and those that do always seem to end up waiting for the wrong train...


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## jis (Apr 29, 2016)

Thinking a bit about which sort of timetables I have found most useful these points come to mind:

1. Big fat national timetable like the old Railroad Guides in the US or Bradshaw and now the National Timetable in the UK, and things like the TAAG (Trains At A Glance) in India are things that satisfy my railfan side. I think most normal people find those too intimidating specially with endless footnotes for each table and what not, quite intimidating and avoid them.

2. Individual route timetables are more usable by lay users. They are even more useful if provided with abstract connection timetables for each junction station that the route passes through. This unfortunately is seldom done in the US, though there are a few small exceptions.

3. At stations, a station specific arrival departure timetable is very useful. This is standard practice in Europe, and not providing such is standard practice in the US.

4. Providing route timetable for the train at the platform where it is departing from is often done electronically in Europe, usually not done in the US, though there are some exceptions.

5. Providing train consist information at platform is sometimes announced in the US, but is almost standard practice in Europe, and pretty standard at large stations in India and China too. Helps people position themselves on the platform closer to the car.

Given those possibilities I think Amtrak should try to concentrate more towards items 2 through 5, and provide 1 mostly electronically both in a machine usable and a printable form. This also gives an opportunity to keep the document more upto date. Essentially creating a PDF document which is a collection of individual route timetables and if possible connection timetables for major transfer points would be ideal for such a document.

Additionally of course there can be all sorts of dynamically generated documents based on specific searches etc. provided at the web site.


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## niemi24s (Apr 29, 2016)

In spite of the fact that the disappearance of the Amtrak System Timeable (AST) alluded to in Post #1 has neither been confirmed nor denied, the tactic of planning for the worst and hoping for the best was employed. A visit to the local Office Max/Office Depot revealed two things:

• As both the printed paper form and the pdf version of the Winter/Spring 2016 AST are copyrighted material, the printing job will not be accepted.

• On the bold assumption the next version has a caveat permitting local commercial reproduction, the cost per copy would be about $89 each for 1 copy, $75 each for 10 copies and $50 each for 100 copies.

Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 29, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.


Look at posts 16 & 17. Those two posters are reliable.


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## jis (Apr 29, 2016)

rtabern said:


> Sad to hear Amtrak had decided not to publish national timetables anymore. Egh, I never really used them all that much... but was able to collect the complete collection since the first one... including the rare one that only a few thousand of were printed in the mid-1980's. I had a few folks mention the complete collection I have could be worth as much as $2000-3000.
> 
> April 20, 2016
> For several years we have simultaneously produced the Amtrak System Timetable in printed form and as an electronic downloadable document housed on Amtrak.com. The decision has been made to discontinue production of the printed Amtrak System Timetable effective immediately. The final printed timetable is the January 2016 Winter/Spring version recently printed.
> ...





Hal said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity...does anyone have an actual source for this announcement? While it certainly sounds plausible, the OP does not cite a source. Neither does the poster over on Trainorders. There's no news release about it, and neither is there anything listed on the Service Advisory page.
> ...





OBS said:


> As HAL said; A notice was issued yesterday to employees, which was pretty verbatim to the OP message.





niemi24s said:


> Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.


See the three posts quoted above yours. Of those three, one - the first ones works closely with Amtrak, the second one is retired from Amtrak and has close connection with Amtrak with access to internal documents, and the third I believe works for Amtrak. How much more verification do you need? Sad if it is the case that you missed the OP of the thread  Maybe he should have made it clear what document he was quoting.


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## afigg (Apr 29, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> Efforts to confirm with Amtrak the AST's disappearance in paper form have so far been unsuccessful.- unless it's buried somewhere in these 6 pages and I've missed it.


Besides the posts and quoted memos here (and other rr forums), would a news report at Trains Magazine be sufficient confirmation for you? The article is behind a paywall, but the headline and first words in the article tell the basic story: Amtrak's printed timetable days are finished. The comments to the Trains magazine report, BTW, are not behind the paywall...


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## jis (Apr 29, 2016)

It might be worth asking Amtrak to explicitly grant nonexclusive license to all to print a copy for personal use, and add such a note to the copyright notice in the PDF. Since they give them away for free anyway, this would seem not to affect anything and would serve a positive purpose. Those from Amtrak around here may wish to convey this thought to the powers that be at Amtrak.

This will enable printing part or whole at public printing service outlets, and be overall of advantage to Amtrak IMHO. Now as for the cost of such printing, that is an altogether different matter, but there are printing services on the internet that are considerably cheaper than the Officemaxes of the world.

And then there is of course the printer at home where it is just the time and cost of materials.

Personally, I would not print one. It is good enough to have the PDF on my iPhone under iBooks.


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## niemi24s (Apr 29, 2016)

Just got off the phone with an individual at Amtrak Advertising who confirmed the elimination of the System Timetable in paper form. He was, however, unaware of the _possible_ problem caused by the current copyright statement in the pdf version and said he'd see what could be done to modify it to allow commercial reproduction for personal use.

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers about confirming the story, but I'm the sort who believes nothing he hears and only half of what he sees. In addition, I don't keep track of any posters veracity.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 29, 2016)

Aren't Amtrak materials public documents? Not to get sidetracked into a governance question, but I was under the impression that Amtrak was subject to the federal Freedom of Information Act. As such, wouldn't it follow that what they produce is a public document? [Yeah, I know...the staffer down at OfficeKinkos is just following corporate policy and isn't going to risk his/her job over printing out a railroad timetable]

As to the cost...I assume the quoted price was for the entire document. You could certainly lessen the cost by skipping all the non-timetable pages. Of the 141 page PDF of the current timetable, only 89 pages include actual timetables. Of those, approximately 20 were pages for Thruway buses or non-Amtrak service providers. So if you just want to print the rail timetables, you're really looking at just under half the 141 page document. That should cut down the cost whether printing at home or at a commercial location.


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## jis (Apr 29, 2016)

AFAIK the Copyright law says nothing about public documents. Someone can make their documents public by including an appropriate copyright license granting permission to to everyone to create copies. Absent that any expression is automatically copyrighted to the producer of said expression.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 29, 2016)

jis said:


> AFAIK the Copyright law says nothing about public documents. Someone can make their documents public by including an appropriate copyright license granting permission to to everyone to create copies. Absent that any expression is automatically copyrighted to the producer of said expression.


There are of course exceptions and what-not but the relevant section of the Copyright law states:



> Public Domain & Copyright Notice
> 
> Title 17, Section 105, United States Code, provides that:
> 
> ...


Bolding mine. Source. 

Of course, this goes back to the squishy question of whether Amtrak is a government agency, and whether Amtrak employees are performing official duties of the United States Government. Again, not a debate you're likely to win with the employee down at the local print shop.


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## jis (Apr 29, 2016)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 29, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Not a debate you're likely to win with the employee down at the local print shop.


The way American companies are structured these days the front line employee has virtually no power to make any timely decisions or perform any practical action of their own free will. I once tried to add some air to a tire at a petrol station. The machine accepted my coins but refused to do anything else. I calmly inquired about collecting a refund for lack of service but it turned out that only the regional manager who showed up once or twice a month had the authority to process even a four quarter inflation refund.


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## trainman74 (Apr 29, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> As to the cost...I assume the quoted price was for the entire document. You could certainly lessen the cost by skipping all the non-timetable pages. Of the 141 page PDF of the current timetable, only 89 pages include actual timetables. Of those, approximately 20 were pages for Thruway buses or non-Amtrak service providers. So if you just want to print the rail timetables, you're really looking at just under half the 141 page document. That should cut down the cost whether printing at home or at a commercial location.


The price niemi24s was quoted seems to have been for a licensed copy of commercial copyrighted material. I'm sure it would be a lot cheaper if they treated it as a non-commercial document.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 29, 2016)

trainman74 said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > As to the cost...I assume the quoted price was for the entire document. You could certainly lessen the cost by skipping all the non-timetable pages. Of the 141 page PDF of the current timetable, only 89 pages include actual timetables. Of those, approximately 20 were pages for Thruway buses or non-Amtrak service providers. So if you just want to print the rail timetables, you're really looking at just under half the 141 page document. That should cut down the cost whether printing at home or at a commercial location.
> ...


The price may also include binding and a cover. :unsure:


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## niemi24s (Apr 29, 2016)

Ah, now I see we've gotten to the stage of fine-tuning the printing job and taking guesses on what it will or won't do to the cost of the document. This would, no doubt, drag this thread out another useless page or two until folks here get off their duffs and actually price out the job on the Office Whatever website: http://www.officedepot.com/a/copy-and-print/presentations/

Oddly enough, the website prices match the prices at the counter in the store. I just hope posting the link to that website doesn't result in a torrent of posts about what I really need, what can be eliminated from the print job, etc, etc, ad nauseam.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 29, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> Ah, now I see we've gotten to the stage of fine-tuning the printing job and taking guesses on what it will or won't do to the cost of the document.


Hey, we're here to serve! 

Anywho, I can't speak for others on here but I suspect I'm not the only one who thought it was a tad hyperbolic to suggest that it would cost $89 to print out a paper copy of the Amtrak timetable. I mean, I'm sure it's possible to pay that much. But that doesn't mean that's how much it HAS to cost. For instance, you can go to this website and have it mailed to you for as little as $19 (including shipping). There may be even cheaper options out there.


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## niemi24s (Apr 29, 2016)

But that $19 may be for paperback book size, making for a difficult read. As letter size is about 2X paperback book size, I'm thinking the cost might be about $14.40 X 1.41 X 2 ≈ $41 or maybe $50 with shipping. But that's still a lot cheaper than Office Max/Depot. And that's just a guess, because with my limited PC skills I can't get the Amtrak pdf to my PC so I can send it to them for a better estimate.

But thanks for the link - never dawned on me there'd be such a service available.

[edit] Just figured out how to download a pdf. It would be $24.06 printed letter size and paperback bound plus shipping - maybe $33 and _about_ 1/3 the cost of Office Max. Such a deal!


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## niemi24s (Apr 30, 2016)

And, finally, here's the answer straight from the horse's mouth:


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## Ryan (Apr 30, 2016)

The fact that you'll put more faith in a random CSR (who collectively give mutually exclusive answers with depressing frequency) over the word of several long-established posters that actually work for Amtrak and are in positions to know of the information firsthand (as opposed to the thirdhand, occasionally correct, info from a CSR) is pretty amusing.

Glad you've caught up to where we were a week ago.


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## TinCan782 (May 1, 2016)

I ordered a paper time table earlier in the week...it arrived today, Saturday 4/30.

https://www.amtrak.com/order-contact-amtrak-publications


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## keelhauled (May 1, 2016)

Ryan said:


> The fact that you'll put more faith in a random CSR (who collectively give mutually exclusive answers with depressing frequency) over the word of several long-established posters that actually work for Amtrak and are in positions to know of the information firsthand (as opposed to the thirdhand, occasionally correct, info from a CSR) is pretty amusing.
> 
> Glad you've caught up to where we were a week ago.


The fact that anonymous internet posters give more accurate and timely information than Amtrak's customer-facing employees is also amusing, except in a pathetic sort of way.


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## CCC1007 (May 1, 2016)

keelhauled said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that you'll put more faith in a random CSR (who collectively give mutually exclusive answers with depressing frequency) over the word of several long-established posters that actually work for Amtrak and are in positions to know of the information firsthand (as opposed to the thirdhand, occasionally correct, info from a CSR) is pretty amusing.
> ...


Anonymous? You do realize that there are records publicly available about what was posted by each member of this forum, when the post occurred, and that these records remove most levels of anonymity right?


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## ScouseAndy (May 1, 2016)

Ofcourse the harder they make for passengers to know what time their train is due in the less people will realise that the train is late


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## Ryan (May 1, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Indeed.

I'm also not sure why the actual doers knowing more than people on the other side of the country that get the info thirdhand is considered "pathetic". It's just a basic fact of life.


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## JayPea (May 1, 2016)

To further derail the thread (pun entirely intended) I should think any poster who posts as "Ryan" isn't exactly going to be exactly anonymous.


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## pennyk (May 1, 2016)

PLEASE TRY TO KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON TOPIC AND AVOID ANY SNIPING AND/OR PERSONAL ATTACKS. THANK YOU.


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## jis (May 1, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> Ofcourse the harder they make for passengers to know what time their train is due in the less people will realise that the train is late


As we know, the Printed National Timetable has never been the best source of information on what schedule a train is operating on on any particular day. It just gives a reasonable rough idea which needs to be verified with the actual current time table.


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## keelhauled (May 1, 2016)

Ryan said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > keelhauled said:
> ...


Well perhaps we have different definitions of "anonymous." Someone posting under a screen name can't be held accountable like a customer service rep can (or should be). It does not escape me that in many circumstances that can be an advantage, but in any case it's not entirely my point either. I also don't see how distance is a factor, it stopped being an obstacle to communication back when the telephone was invented. Obviously the information is out there, what Amtrak seems consistently unable to do is to pass it on to their customers in general. While I appreciate getting some amount of inside information and explanation here as much as anyone else, you can't say that it's any help at all for the vast majority of people traveling on Amtrak, who don't frequent online forums and depend on Amtrak representatives to communicate with them. It's a systemic problem, the timetable is just an example. For example, the Lake Shore Limited Boston cars, or lack thereof--it's been going on for what, close to year now, and supposedly won't come back until October, but good luck trying to figure that out from Amtrak.com, which makes no mention of it on the LSL's route page, or timetable, or the service alerts. All the customer knows is that for some reason they're forced to book a "transfer" at Albany, without any other explanation. It goes both ways too. They start business class on some long distance trains, but they don't advertise it at all, and with wild inconsistency bother to mention it on their website--the Crescent has a notice about it on the route page and a service alert, but the Cardinal doesn't, only a mention of a business class seat as an accommodation offered. And neither schedule has the little business class icon on it. God help the poor person who tries to make heads or tails of it. Explaining what services a company offers seems like basic stuff, so why Amtrak is painfully unable to do so with any kind of pattern is beyond me.


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## CHamilton (Sep 28, 2016)

We heard at the RailPAC conference last weekend that Amtrak is seriously looking into bring back the printed national timetable, probably as a paid offering. Apparently they were quite surprised by the number of complaints they got when it was discontinued. No details yet, but progress seems to be being made.


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## tricia (Sep 28, 2016)

CHamilton said:


> We heard at the RailPAC conference last weekend that Amtrak is seriously looking into bring back the printed national timetable, probably as a paid offering. Apparently they were quite surprised by the number of complaints they got when it was discontinued. No details yet, but progress seems to be being made.


Yay! If it turns out to be a paid offering, I hope they'll at least offer system MAPS for free. Very useful tool for converting first-time riders to regular customers.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 28, 2016)

Good idea, the old Rail Guides were for Sale ( and are now Collectors items) so charging a nominal fee that would cover costs seems the ideal way to go!

Thanks for sharing the info Charlie!


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## jis (Sep 28, 2016)

Amtrak's timetable is not that big and does not really change as drastically and as often as some others do. Most really seriously large rail systems have done away with printed timetables mainly because they became exceedingly unwieldy. Instead some publish printed abstract timetables of only major trains on major routes, and then publish local or route specific timetables sometimes in printed form. But they all have excellent access to schedules via mobile devices.


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## neroden (Sep 28, 2016)

CHamilton said:


> We heard at the RailPAC conference last weekend that Amtrak is seriously looking into bring back the printed national timetable, probably as a paid offering. Apparently they were quite surprised by the number of complaints they got when it was discontinued. No details yet, but progress seems to be being made.


I would certainly pay a reasonable price for it. Not more than $20. (Plus shipping.)

P.S. I'm totally down with Amtrak making a small profit on these. It goes to fund the trains.  Sometimes instead of cost-cutting, it's worth thinking about revenue-raising... like they did with bike service, like they did with pet service...


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## dlagrua (Sep 29, 2016)

On the printed vs online debate; I like the paper timetables better. Much faster to access and easier to read.as you have everything available in a condensed form. If you use your smartphone the type is small, you must call up the URL (or look it up) wait for pages to load and you don't know whats on the next page until you pull it up. If you are inside some buildings or at a remote location good luck finding a data or WiFi connection. The reason for eliminating the system timetable is cost. Its just another "cut towards profitability" move instituted during the Boardman years.

If Amtrak is that concerned with cost then just give them out upon request to Amtrak Passengers. If you rode Amtrak in 2015, you then get a new system timetable or pay a couple of bucks for it.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 29, 2016)

I, too, like the printed timetables better. If I know where I am starting and ending, I am fine with going into the Amtrak website and looking up the best train and getting my ticket online. But if I want several options, I would like to see them all at once in a book.

The printed timetable also has other uses, especially for infrequent travelers or those not familiar with trains:

The timetable allows you to try different routes just by turning pages and plan an adventure.

The photos make you feel like train travel is something enjoyable and more than just transportation.

The photos of places advertised show you some places you might not have thought of going.

You can pick up a couple of printed timetables so that you can give one away to a friend who says "I've been thinking about taking the train but don't know where to start."

In other words, when Amtrak dumped the printed timetable, they lost a good marketing tool.

And yes, I'd be willing to pay a few dollars for it, and I would recycle it when the next one came out.


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## jis (Sep 29, 2016)

I actually have physical copies of many years worth of printed Amtrak National Timetables.

I also have sporadic copies of the All India Bradshaw, which alas, is not published anymore. I also have many copies of the American Official Rail Guide upto and including 1971, though many of them are in PDF rather than in print.


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## A Voice (Sep 29, 2016)

CHamilton said:


> We heard at the RailPAC conference last weekend that Amtrak is seriously looking into bring back the printed national timetable, probably as a paid offering. Apparently they were quite surprised by the number of complaints they got when it was discontinued. No details yet, but progress seems to be being made.


Ah, good news after all.

I can see making people pay for the postage to mail out a National Timetable (perhaps free at stations), though I'm not so sure about asking passengers to pay for the booklet itself. If the timetable is to be a marketing as well as trip planning tool - and it is indeed both - then you shouldn't be charging people to promote your services to them. Perhaps a $2-3 fee to defray costs if you absolutely must.

Still, a positive move in the right direction. Many of us said getting rid of the printed National Timetable was a mistake, and we were right.


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## jis (Sep 29, 2016)

Comprehensive national timetable, if available at all, are generally not available for free in other countries. You have to buy them. Individual route timetables are often free to pick up at station or on the web. Information from comprehensive national timetables are available to access for free on the web almost everywhere, but they are usually accessed in a tabular form based on a specific origin - destination - date - time inquiry.


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## railiner (Sep 29, 2016)

I would like to see a free printed national timetable, with paid advertisements.

Perhaps they could simply expand the giveaway seatback magazines to include the timetables?

And since those come out fairly frequently (monthly?)...

They would be more up-to-date than the bi-annual traditional issues...


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## jphjaxfl (Sep 29, 2016)

Printed National Timetables are an expensive relic of the past. I can get all the information I need from my tablet or smartphone. I can get information about the towns we pass through. I usually bring my private railroad Timetables for the routes I am travelling. I have Official Guides to research routes. I think eliminating National Timetables as being cost effective.


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## neroden (Sep 29, 2016)

National Timetables are far, far more useful for planning complex journeys than the stuff online. I have often flipped back and forth working out what connections are possible, which is beyond tedious with websites. (A complete set of individual timetables would do as well, but is a flurry of paper.)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Sep 30, 2016)

I wonder if part of it had to do with the relatively recent survey that found that most Americans, particularly the "young" couldn't read a train schedule anyway...


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 30, 2016)

I can look up something on a columnar timetable MUCH faster than on the Internet, mainly because I can pick up the timetable, flip it open and everything is right there. Of course the advantage of the Internet is schedule changes can be made without obsoleting the timetable.


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## keelhauled (Sep 30, 2016)

There are some very impressive platforms for replicating magazines and such on a screen. Particularly with how ubiquitous touchscreens are getting to be, it seems to me that the best way to deliver timetables in the future is to abandon the PDF format, at least as the default, and switch to something mildly more interactive. The entire timetable as a PDF is a chore to work with, but there's no reason you can't replicate 95% of the printed timetable experience on a touchscreen without the printing and materials cost if you use a different method of delivery.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 30, 2016)

With all of the track work, cancellations and schedule deviations throughout the year, I think the printed master schedule is really nothing more than a wish list. Online schedules update easily.


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## Chessie (Oct 1, 2016)

I for one would be more than happy to pay a few bucks for national time tables. Printing itself is not the issue but book binding is.


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## jis (Oct 1, 2016)

A printed national time table should perhaps be sold as a souvenir with prominently stated disclosure that the times that appear were accurate around the date it was published but in general are approximations. Online timetables should be consulted for accurate timetables on a given date.


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## railiner (Oct 1, 2016)

jis said:


> A printed national time table should perhaps be sold as a souvenir with prominently stated disclosure that the times that appear were accurate around the date it was published but in general are approximations. Online timetables should be consulted for accurate timetables on a given date.


I like that idea too...

The only thing is, with that disclosure, they might only bother to update the timetable when the original issue finally sold out....


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## jis (Oct 1, 2016)

Yeah, it would help if they were to follow the example of Indian Railways, which issues a book called the TAAG (Trains At A Glance) twice a year. It is an abstract major routes timetable and it is still a substantial half inch to three quarters of an inch thick book. It is issue twice a year. But of course train times change all the time throughout the year and new trains are introduced throughout the year as resources become available etc. The TAAG still gives one a pretty good sense of what the major trunk routes are and roughly whats ervice is available on them. But sometimes the details deviate quite a bit as time progresses.

The TAAG replaced a more substantial 2 inch or more thick All India Railway Timetable sometime back in the '80s or '90s, I forget exactly when. Even after that the inch to two inch thick Indian Bradshaw continued to be published until a little after 2010 when it was discontinued.


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## neroden (Oct 1, 2016)

Amtrak should not underestimate the value of a printed map and schedule book as a marketing tool -- it's a "look where you can get to by Amtrak" tool. And people who are curious will dig into it far enough to figure out whether they can actually make the connections to those places.

This is incredibly difficult to do with any online tool ever. Just not fit for that purpose. All online stuff is geared towards someone who already knows where they're going.


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