# Ways to Improve Business Class



## ScouseAndy (Apr 11, 2016)

Apologies if this has already been discussed I did search but couldn't find a thread on this.

Im trying to get my head around why anyone would pay for Business Class on some long distance journeys as it seems like rather poor value for money and what Amtrak could do to improve the perception and the demand for business class on long distance services without having to spend money it doesn't have.

For example unless I'm mistaken currently BC doesn't include access to a shower, isn't this something which could be offered or is the showers in the sleepers already at full capacity?


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 11, 2016)

I suspect the business class on LD trains is aimed at those who take those train short distances, like half or whole day trips.


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 11, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I suspect the business class on LD trains is aimed at those who take those train short distances, like half or whole day trips.


But if I had a 3 or 4 hour train trip to get to an important event I'd be tempted to pay a little extra so I can freshen up before I arrive, and I'm sure many others would as well.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 11, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect the business class on LD trains is aimed at those who take those train short distances, like half or whole day trips.
> ...


If you drove or flew for 3-4 hours, would you expect to freshen up - in a shower - before an important event? I'd take my shower before leaving the house and then, maybe, use wet wipes or wet paper towels to freshen up in a bathroom at or near the event.


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 11, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> ScouseAndy said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...


Well actually yes - and people do pay for this in the UK. In nearly every Motorway service station and many mainline train stations and airports you will find shower cubicles available to do just this.

​Amtrak could go 1 better then this and actually allow its riders to take a shower on board before they get to their destination so saving time.

​I'm sure there is plenty of other Value Added Products Amtrak could offer to increase the perceived value of BC


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 11, 2016)

For me the number one issue with Amtrak's Business Class is that I rarely know what I'm going to get until I'm already on board. Sometimes it seems like a good deal while other times it seems no different than coach but with a higher price. I don't necessarily need or want Business Class to be identical everywhere across the network, but having a well defined and consistent standard for each route and corridor would help to clarify the sales pitch and possibly sell me on an upgrade. Otherwise I end up assuming it's not worth the trouble unless someone proactively recommends it thanks to a recent trip of their own.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2016)

DA, you beat me to it....I was just going to write something similar.

On a four-hour Northeast Regional trip, I board, find my own seat, and receive nothing except a free cup of coffee. The conductor scans my ticket, but there is no attendant on board. The only reason to take Business Class is to avoid the nightmare of coach on the congested Northeast Corridor--it's the only way to guarantee I will have a seat.

But on a trip that was less than an hour, from Fredericksburg to Alexandria on the Carolinian in Business Class, I was given an assigned seat and a pillow, then offered a newspaper (a real one) and asked what I would like to drink and also would I like a snack? All offered as if I would be on there for hours, and not just a short trip.

I think the shower would be just one more thing to get filthy and disgusting, along with the bathrooms. I would definitely wait to get to my hotel for that.


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## rrdude (Apr 11, 2016)

First of all, you _*assume*_ that Amtrak _*cares*_ about improving the standards, consistency, and amenities that Business Class offers above those paying coach.

An older restaurateur told me a long time ago, (when discussing why he doesn't use coupons), "_Why give away something for free, when you have all the business you can handle already?_"

I posit that Amtrak's Business Class, which costs Amtrak virtually nothing now, (no increased labor, minimal food/bev costs, zero on ticketing, etc.) is almost all bottom-line extra revenue. I know that I had originally booked *six tickets * as BC from Savannah to BWI. But after taking the Palmetto a few weeks ago, and looking at what BC got me, vs. coach, I downgraded the minute I got home. (Saved over $300)

Now a few things influenced my decision:


We were starting our trip in the train's origin (Savannah) so there is a better than even shot that we will get seated together, (provided we are on time for boarding).
We will be directed to sit in a "longs" coach, (those traveling longer distance) 
Other than a warm soda or coffee/tea, there is no other amenity provided in BC on this train.
The "longs" seating config in the Amfleet II, has more than ample foot room and recline pitch for a 12 hour day trip.
What would have influenced me to *keep* my BC tickets?


Perhaps a cocktail or adult beverage with each ticket.
2-1 seating, I'm a sucker for that.
A separate f/s car, or even half of a full Amdinette, dedicated to BC
If I'd been boarding at any point _*other than*_ the originating station. I would have felt I'd had a better shot of seating together, but it's not always the case anyway.
But, BC often sells out, with none of the above added amenities, so Amtrak is following what that old restaurateur friend of mine asked: "_Why give away something for free, when you have all the business you can handle already_?"

Amtrak at least seems to be _thinking_ in the right direction, at least on the CS. I would seriously consider BC on the CS, if I had access to lounges and the PPC. (more than just wine tasting) It's pretty simple economics though. I just wish that BC would be standardized, so one could know what to expect.

But hey, in a couple more decades I'll be worm food, so it don't really matter, int the great scheme of things.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2016)

rrdude--

I think you made a wise choice--I see the Palmetto often now that it is stopping at PJC (where I get off my commuter train around the same time), and it looks like Business Class is an Amfleet I, which makes absolutely no sense. Was that what it was when you took it?


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## Palmetto (Apr 11, 2016)

When are we going to see the day when some trains have more than one business class car?


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## rrdude (Apr 11, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> rrdude--
> 
> I think you made a wise choice--I see the Palmetto often now that it is stopping at PJC (where I get off my commuter train around the same time), and it looks like Business Class is an Amfleet I, which makes absolutely no sense. Was that what it was when you took it?


Was an Amfleet II, IIRC.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 11, 2016)

rrdude said:


> First of all, you _*assume*_ that Amtrak _*cares*_ about improving the standards, consistency, and amenities that Business Class offers above those paying coach.


You're probably right but wouldn't it be possible to charge more for Business Class if the difference was substantially improved over coach and clearly defined at booking time?


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## MARC Rider (Apr 11, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> For me the number one issue with Amtrak's Business Class is that I rarely know what I'm going to get until I'm already on board. Sometimes it seems like a good deal while other times it seems no different than coach but with a higher price. I don't necessarily need or want Business Class to be identical everywhere across the network, but having a well defined and consistent standard for each route and corridor would help to clarify the sales pitch and possibly sell me on an upgrade. Otherwise I end up assuming it's not worth the trouble unless someone proactively recommends it thanks to a recent trip of their own.


With 2 exceptions (at least in the east, with which I am more familiar), you do get something better than coach. The two exceptions are the Pennsylvanian and the Palmetto.

Other trains are as follows:

NE regionals, BC seat is ~50 in pitch as opposed to the 39 inch pitch in coach, as well as there being curtains to shade your eyes from sun glare or station lights, very important if you're taking 66/67 and ant to sleep. Oh yes, and you get a free drink, for what it's worth, but at least the drinks are full size now, and presumably the ice is also included.

Vermonter/Empire Service/Downeaster has the 2 x 1 club car seating. 50 in seat pitch vs 39 in coach, as well as curtains, and, of course, free non alcoholic drinks.

Carolinian (which is longest ride one can take in an Amfleet I coach, if you ride from end to end) has 50 inch pitch Amfleet I BC (in other words, it's basically a Northeast Regional BC with a car attendant.)

In all of these cases, you get more legroom and a less crowded car (most of the time), which increases the single traveler's chance of not having to deal with a seatmate.

The real marginal value propositions are the Pennsylvanian and the Palmetto, because the physical layout of the Amfleet I BC car is more or less the same as that of the Amfleet 2 LD coach. (Same 50 in seat pitch, same curtains on the windows.) What you're really paying for is an increased chance that the BC car will be less crowded, and thus you don't have to have a seatmate. If you're traveling with someone, well, that's not much of an advantage. I ride BC on the Palmetto, at least on Saturdays, the coach section gets pretty filled up by Florence, whereas in BC, it's nice and quiet all the way north. Well, I'm taking it on Saturday, I hope I don't have to eat my words. 

Oh yes, and you get a 25% TQP bonus on your AGR points.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 11, 2016)

rrdude said:


> What would have influenced me to *keep* my BC tickets?
> 
> 
> Perhaps a cocktail or adult beverage with each ticket.
> ...


Yes, the Palmetto experience would definitely be enhanced by 2 x 1 seating, and a car attendant. Full meal service would be nice, even if you had to pay extra for it. But then, that's the day train that cries out for a dining car. That, the Carolinian, and the Vermonter, and maybe the Pennsylvanian.


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## jis (Apr 11, 2016)

I think any BC other than Acela BC (which is a class unto itself anyway) perhaps, that is not 2x1, should just be called Premium Coach or something like that, and have a fare premium lower than that for full level BC. While it would be nice if it could, it is unlikely that at present Amtrak can find the cash to equip 25 or 50 cars with the old Metroliner Club seats.


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## KmH (Apr 11, 2016)

Regards showers on the train as opposed to in a station or at an airport:

There is a limited amount of space on a train car for storing the fresh water for showers.

On Amtrak trains the water that goes down the shower drain is not captured.

The showers, and sinks, drain out the bottom of the cars onto the tracks.

IIRC it wasn't until the early 70's that toilet waste was captured in holding tanks in lieu of flushing onto the tracks.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 11, 2016)

KmH said:


> Regards showers on the train as opposed to in a station or at an airport:
> 
> There is a limited amount of space on a train car for storing the fresh water for showers.
> 
> ...


Amtrak had an exemption for the heritage sleepers in use up till the early '00's


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 12, 2016)

The showers are already on long distance trains in the sleepers arent they for use by the roomette passengers could be made available to BC customers couldnt they?


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## rrdude (Apr 12, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> Oh yes, and you get a 25% TQP bonus on your AGR points.


Oh yes, forgot that bonus, while "nice", probably not an influencing factor. Agree with JIS, they should just call it "premium coach" or something.


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## seat38a (Apr 12, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> The showers are already on long distance trains in the sleepers arent they for use by the roomette passengers could be made available to BC customers couldnt they?


NO! If you want a shower, get a sleeper. Why should sleeper passengers have to wait for a car full of business class passengers. One of the perks of paying for a sleeper is having a shower. Why dilute the sleeping car experience to sell more business class? During busy times, there already is a wait for the shower in the sleeper. Last thing it needs is more people in line to use it or even worse running out of water.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 13, 2016)

seat38a--

Your question "Why dilute the sleeping car experience to sell more business class?" started me thinking about why Amtrak is pushing its current business class (on the Northeast Regionals, for example) and adding business class to the long-distance trains and pushing it there.

As with many things Amtrak, I'm wondering if they are trying to lower the quality by pretending to make it better.

First, "Look, we are giving you a business class option on the long-distance trains!"

Then, "With the business class on a long trip, you don't really need a sleeper now, do you? Why on earth do you need to sleep flat in a tiny room when you can be next to a total stranger and sitting up uncomfortably?"

I still think Amtrak is trying to get rid of any sleepers and dining cars it has left, especially since they say they're not.

Full disclosure: I am not someone who looks for hidden agendas. Except when it comes to Amtrak--they've tried to fool us too many times!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> seat38a--
> 
> Your question "Why dilute the sleeping car experience to sell more business class?" started me thinking about why Amtrak is pushing its current business class (on the Northeast Regionals, for example) and adding business class to the long-distance trains and pushing it there.
> 
> ...


Well, that would be silly on the east coast since they have new sleepers and diners coming out .... some day.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2016)

I agree. I am afraid there may be a few too many tin foil hats with propellers mounted on them going around here


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## seat38a (Apr 13, 2016)

jis said:


> I agree. I am afraid there may be a few too many tin foil hats with propellers mounted on them going around here


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 13, 2016)

I've heard of tin foil hats, and I've heard of propeller heads, but tin foil hats with propellers is a new one for me. :mellow:


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 14, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > seat38a--
> ...


Of course it would be silly--I never implied that Amtrak would do anything that made sense  .



jis said:


> I agree. I am afraid there may be a few too many tin foil hats with propellers mounted on them going around here


I had to look this up to find out that it refers to people who are delusional.  I fully believe that the Phillies are getting better every day and that there may be hope for NJT after all--how could anyone possibly think I'm delusional?


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## jis (Apr 15, 2016)

LOL!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2016)

jis said:


> I agree. I am afraid there may be a few too many tin foil hats with propellers mounted on them going around here


The "Official Hat" of the GOP during the Clown Car Circus now playing all over America!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

OK, I'm busy designing the new tin foil hat with a propeller on top, sketches will be out for approval soon!


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## rrdude (Apr 15, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> OK, I'm busy designing the new tin foil hat with a propeller on top, sketches will be out for approval soon!


Like the one I have?


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## Ryan (Apr 15, 2016)

That's priceless!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

rrdude said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I'm busy designing the new tin foil hat with a propeller on top, sketches will be out for approval soon!
> ...


DAMN!


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## west point (Apr 15, 2016)

If sleeper ridership were to decrease theory of moving sleeper to BC might be realistic but so far Crescent sleeper ridership is still almost full as usual.


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## Triley (Apr 16, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> On a four-hour Northeast Regional trip, I board, find my own seat, and receive nothing except a free cup of coffee. The conductor scans my ticket, but there is no attendant on board. The only reason to take Business Class is to avoid the nightmare of coach on the congested Northeast Corridor--it's the only way to guarantee I will have a seat.


Just to clarify for those who may be unfamiliar, business class includes water, (hot) coffee, (hot) tea, juice, soda, hot chocolate, and I believe milk as well. I will also include club soda and tonic water if I can spare it. There is also not a limit of one beverage. It's within "reason". When one person comes up and asks for a water, two juices, and a coffee all for themselves, I may put my foot down and ask that you come back after you finish a beverage or two, so other passengers have a chance to buy/obtain something, especially if it's a train with little stock.


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## Triley (Apr 16, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > For me the number one issue with Amtrak's Business Class is that I rarely know what I'm going to get until I'm already on board. Sometimes it seems like a good deal while other times it seems no different than coach but with a higher price. I don't necessarily need or want Business Class to be identical everywhere across the network, but having a well defined and consistent standard for each route and corridor would help to clarify the sales pitch and possibly sell me on an upgrade. Otherwise I end up assuming it's not worth the trouble unless someone proactively recommends it thanks to a recent trip of their own.
> ...


Another, albeit small, perk of a business class vs coach seating on the Regionals is that you will get a foot rest as well.

I think people underestimate how much quieter it is in Business. Just worked 131, and it's a quiet Regional. Topped out at about 280 in Coach. Topped out at...5 in Business.


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## bretton88 (Apr 17, 2016)

Took BC on the cardinal. It was great with unlimited beverages, 2x1, and WiFi. Meanwhile in the Midwest it's a single drink and 2x1. Where BC becomes a more dicey proposition is on trains with amfleet 2 cars. I feel like Amtrak needs a consistent standard for BC, like VIA rail has in Canada.


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