# Cruise Ships and Canada



## Bob Dylan

Just saw on the News that Cruise Ships will not be able to Operate in Canada until March 1,2022.

This means no Inside Passage Trips to Alaska from Vancouver and no St Lawrence Seaway Cruises to Halifax and Quebec City from New York or Boston.

The story doesn't mention Ferries or cruises up the Inside Passage from Seattle.

Wondering if this means the Amtrak/ VIA Trains that cross the Border will also be affected?


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## flitcraft

Bob Dylan said:


> Just saw on the News that Cruise Ships will not be able to Operate in Canada until March 1,2022. This means no Inside Passage Trips to Alaska from Vancouver and no St Lawrence Seaway Cruises to Halifax and Quebec City from New York or Boston. The story doesn't mention Ferries or cruises up the Inside Passage from Seattle.


 Most cruises from Seattle to Alaska will be legally barred from operating under a law that requires foreign-flagged vessels to have at least one non-US port of call on Alaska cruises operating from a US port. As far as I am aware, that rule wipes out all of the big cruise lines ships--their ships are all foreign-flagged-- because they must include a Canadian port in their itineraries. There are a few companies that run small 'adventure-cruise' boats between Seattle and Alaska that don't have to include a Canadian stop by law; but who knows whether the market is there, even for boats with 60 or 70 guests. The Clipper that runs between Seattle and Victoria is shut down till further notice. So is the Coho ferry from Port Angeles. Unless the small boats run, there isn't going to be a cruise season in the Pacific Northwest this coming season.


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## railiner

I have a long Baltic cruise booked for 30 July from New York, that includes a couple of Canadian ports of call, enroute. So at least those ports will have to be bypassed, but it is looking more and more likely that Oceania will cancel the entire 53 day cruise...should hear from them soon, I would imagine...


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## jiml

There are also several Atlantic/New England cruises that call on Montreal or Quebec City that will be affected. I'm not a cruise person, but my wife is - usually joining her sister. Their most recent Alaska cruise started and ended in Seattle with the obligatory stop in Victoria, BC. It was a good excuse to take the Empire Builder out to meet them, before flying back together.


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## railiner

flitcraft said:


> More cruises from Seattle to Alaska will be legally barred from operating under a law that requires foreign-flagged vessels to have at least one non-US port of call on Alaska cruises operating from a US port. As far as I am aware, that rule wipes out all of the big cruise lines ships--their ships are all foreign-flagged-- because they must include a Canadian port in their itineraries. There are a few companies that run small 'adventure-cruise' boats between Seattle and Alaska that don't have to include a Canadian stop by law; but who knows whether the market is there, even for boats with 60 or 70 guests. The Clipper that runs between Seattle and Victoria is shut down till further notice. So is the Coho ferry from Port Angeles. Unless the small boats run, there isn't going to be a cruise season in the Pacific Northwest this coming season.


If cruising is allowed to resume in the States, but not at any "near foreign ports", perhaps the government will temporarily at least, amend the PVSA regulation's to allow foreign flagged cruise ships to do at least closed loop cruises in the US, without the requirement to call at a "near foreign port" enroute.
And also perhaps, the CBP ban on "cruises to nowhere" by foreign flagged cruise ships....


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## NS VIA Fan

Cruise ships are a big thing here in the Maritimes. I've been in Halifax when there will be 5 in port at once and 10,000 passengers strolling around or on tours. Big $$ lost but it's for the best for one more year. (We have 10 active Covid cases in the Province right now)



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cruise-ships-banned-2022-canadian-waters-1.5901164




You can see two ships in Halifax in this Google View. (a Renaissance Ocean at the VIA Station behind the pier)





And I took this picture (below) a couple of years ago of Norwegian Jade at Halifax


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## jiml

Nice shot. I was surprised there were cruise ships there on our last visit pre-Covid. It was November, which seemed a bit late in the season.


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## railiner

jiml said:


> Nice shot. I was surprised there were cruise ships there on our last visit pre-Covid. It was November, which seemed a bit late in the season.


Maybe due to 'global warming', but the season for cruises seems to be stretching the envelope more each year. Many cruises have extended into the beginning of November, before repositioning to their winter homeports.

I have been on cruises calling at Halifax almost every year, since 2002.


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> Cruise ships are a big thing here in the Maritimes. I've been in Halifax when there will be 5 in port at once and 10,000 passengers strolling around or on tours. Big $$ lost but it's for the best for one more year. (We have 10 active Covid cases in the Province right now)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cruise-ships-banned-2022-canadian-waters-1.5901164
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see two ships in Halifax in this Google View. (a Renaissance Ocean at the VIA Station behind the pier)
> 
> View attachment 20546
> 
> 
> 
> And I took this picture (below) a couple of years ago of Norwegian Jade at Halifax
> 
> 
> View attachment 20547


Every time I call at the Halifax port, I make my "pilgrimage' to the VIA Rail station and bus station, taking a 'shortcut' thru the Westin Nova Scotian Hotel.
And then on to the Barrington Atlantic market, to pick up a sundry or snack. Also visit the excellent maritime museum along the waterfront.


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## NS VIA Fan

railiner said:


> Every time I call at the Halifax port, I make my "pilgrimage' to the VIA Rail station and bus station, taking a 'shortcut' thru the Westin Nova Scotian Hotel.
> And then on to the Barrington Atlantic market, to pick up a sundry or snack. Also visit the excellent maritime museum along the waterfront.



Here's some pictures from back in the day of that area with some Transatlantic Liners across from the Station. There was an overhead walkway direct from the Immigration Pier to the Station.

The founder of Cunard.....Samuel Cunard was from Halifax. Their Liners docked here and still do










Grand Entries - The Hotel Nova Scotia and the CN Train Station | Built Halifax


Built by CN in 1928, the train station and Hotel Nova Scotian were the final pieces of the Railcut and Ocean Terminals project. The images above are




halifaxbloggers.ca


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> Here's some pictures from back in the day of that area with some Transatlantic Liners across from the Station. There was an overhead walkway direct from the Immigration Pier to the Station.
> 
> The founder of Cunard.....Samuel Cunard was from Halifax. Their Liners docked here and still do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grand Entries - The Hotel Nova Scotia and the CN Train Station | Built Halifax
> 
> 
> Built by CN in 1928, the train station and Hotel Nova Scotian were the final pieces of the Railcut and Ocean Terminals project. The images above are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> halifaxbloggers.ca


Wow...great shots...is that the Aquitania in the photo?
Too bad the walkway is not used any more...I just cut thru the hotel parking lot, go in the back door, and then upstairs to the lobby level...


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## TinCan782

Bob Dylan said:


> Just saw on the News that Cruise Ships will not be able to Operate in Canada until March 1,2022.
> 
> This means no Inside Passage Trips to Alaska from Vancouver and no St Lawrence Seaway Cruises to Halifax and Quebec City from New York or Boston.
> 
> The story doesn't mention Ferries or cruises up the Inside Passage from Seattle.
> 
> Wondering if this means the Amtrak/ VIA Trains that cross the Border will also be affected?











Transport Canada Bans Most Cruise Ships Until 2022; Move Kills 2021 Alaska and New England Seasons


The orders prohibit any cruise vessel carrying more than 100 or more people from operating in Canadian waters, effectively canceling the 2021 Alaska and Canada New England seasons for all but small, U.S.-flagged vessels. As of this writing, no cruise lines have officially cancelled their 2021...




www.cruisecritic.com


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## Devil's Advocate

If cruise lines want more options they can choose to create a subsidiary with US registered ships staffed with Americans. It will cost a lot more but probably make more money than running no ships at all. Millions of working age Americans are still hurting for money and at risk of being kicked out onto the street. I therefore see little reason to spend government energy assisting guest worker employment so pensioners can resume speculatively booked joyrides in the middle of a pandemic. A better use of government leverage would be to push for more vaccine production. If vaccines become widely available _and nearly everyone accepts them_ new restrictions on cruises can be lifted ahead of schedule.


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Just saw on the News that Cruise Ships will not be able to Operate in Canada until March 1,2022.
> 
> This means no Inside Passage Trips to Alaska from Vancouver and no St Lawrence Seaway Cruises to Halifax and Quebec City from New York or Boston.
> 
> The story doesn't mention Ferries or cruises up the Inside Passage from Seattle.
> 
> Wondering if this means the Amtrak/ VIA Trains that cross the Border will also be affected?



Depending on the containment of the virus, new vaccines, etc etc... things may change... but then again, it's a matter of how quickly the 'big wheels of government' turn x two countries...


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## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> If cruise lines want more options they can choose to create a subsidiary with US registered ships staffed with Americans. It will cost a lot more but probably make more money than running no ships at all. Millions of working age Americans are still hurting for money and at risk of being kicked out onto the street. I therefore see little reason to spend government energy assisting guest worker employment so pensioners can resume speculatively booked joyrides in the middle of a pandemic. A better use of government leverage would be to push for more vaccine production. If vaccines become widely available _and nearly everyone accepts them_ new restrictions on cruises can be lifted ahead of schedule.


This isn't just an American thing either. All western nations are guilty of turning a blind eye to a commercial enterprise that comes about as close to slavery as one can in the modern "civilized" world. There a reason most of these ships are registered in countries with lower employment standards. The US, Canada and Britain all used to have their own flagged ships, with homegrown crews. Now I think the only one left between them is Pride Of America and its problem is being based in Hawaii, with no nearby foreign ports to serve.


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## me_little_me

flitcraft said:


> More cruises from Seattle to Alaska will be legally barred from operating under a law that requires foreign-flagged vessels to have at least one non-US port of call on Alaska cruises operating from a US port. As far as I am aware, that rule wipes out all of the big cruise lines ships--their ships are all foreign-flagged-- because they must include a Canadian port in their itineraries. There are a few companies that run small 'adventure-cruise' boats between Seattle and Alaska that don't have to include a Canadian stop by law; but who knows whether the market is there, even for boats with 60 or 70 guests. The Clipper that runs between Seattle and Victoria is shut down till further notice. So is the Coho ferry from Port Angeles. Unless the small boats run, there isn't going to be a cruise season in the Pacific Northwest this coming season.


What if they landed on the Russian coast and visited that famous tourist city Novoye Chaplino? I hear it's a hotbed of fun! Worth at least a 15 minute stop. 

Never underestimate the ability of private industry to get around government regulations.


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## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> is that the Aquitania in the photo?



I think it is the Olympic. The funnels' color seems more White Star Line type than Cunard.



jiml said:


> Now I think the only one left between them is Pride Of America and its problem is being based in Hawaii, with no nearby foreign ports to serve.



I have wondered if NCL would consider moving Pride of America to the West Coast for the Alaska season. 



me_little_me said:


> What if they landed on the Russian coast and visited that famous tourist city Novoye Chaplino? I hear it's a hotbed of fun



I looked up this community, population in 2010 was 419. Make it a cruise port: a 21st Century "boom village" for awhile? 

Unlikely such a port or even some other more interesting ports in the Russian Far East would be considered. An Alaska cruise would require much more than 7-10 days and sea conditions in the Northern Pacific are not always very guest friendly. (I know; I have experienced them.)


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## Dakota 400

Devil's Advocate said:


> If cruise lines want more options they can choose to create a subsidiary with US registered ships staffed with Americans. It will cost a lot more but probably make more money than running no ships at all.



That is an interesting idea. The CEO of Carnival Corporation has recently said that they essentially have no revenue. If the Company, as well as the other major cruise industry players, are going to survive, some major "out of the box" thinking is going to have to take place in 2021.


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## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> That is an interesting idea. The CEO of Carnival Corporation has recently said that they essentially have no revenue. If the Company, as well as the other major cruise industry players, are going to survive, some major "out of the box" thinking is going to have to take place in 2021.


Let's hope Uncle Sam doesnt Bail them out with " Corporate Welfare"!!!


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## PVD

It is very difficult to make a case to bail out the cruise ship industry, although it was suggested by someone in power in the not too distant past, until the facts about how little they actually pay to the US in taxes became a major point of contention. That's why they were left out of previous stimulus packages.


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## railiner

The government has not given any funds to the cruise lines, that I am aware of.

As for NCL's Pride of America...it was once part of a three ship NCL America subsidiary, and they could not find enough American worker's willing to work the terrible working condition's of the on board jobs. Besides that, they couldn't fill three ships with enough passengers to make it viable, hence they reduced the sub fleet to just the POA. The POA is US flagged, but it has a special exception to allow it to be, since its hull was US-built, but not the superstructure or machinery. It is restricted to serve the Hawaiian market, and if it does leave that market, it gives up its right to be US flagged. NCL is not likely to give up its monopoly in that market, and will just ride out the pandemic until it can resume there.


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## PVD

Christened right here in Manhattan by the recently departed Sec'y of Transportation, when she was Sec'y of Labor. Probably hard to do the same thing today, most large ships are built in blocks rather than keel up....


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## PVD

Was at the Phila. Navy Yard a few years back for a project at the Penn State Engineering Facility, and wandered over to the Aker Philadelphia Shipyard (now the Philly Shipyard) to take a look at a ship (DANIEL K. INOUYE) my brother in law's company was having built. It looked way different to see those giant modules.


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## railiner

PVD said:


> Christened right here in Manhattan by the recently departed Sec'y of Transportation, when she was Sec'y of Labor. Probably hard to do the same thing today, most large ships are built in blocks rather than keel up....


The POA hull was built at Pascagoula, MS by Litton-Ingalls ship buidling as part of Project America, to build US cruise ships. Since there was no company in the US with the knowledge and resources to complete her, her hull was towed to Bremerhaven, Germany to be completed and fitted out by the Lloyd-Werft shipyard. The full story from Wiki...









Pride of America - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## flitcraft

railiner said:


> If cruising is allowed to resume in the States, but not at any "near foreign ports", perhaps the government will temporarily at least, amend the PVSA regulation's to allow foreign flagged cruise ships to do at least closed loop cruises in the US, without the requirement to call at a "near foreign port" enroute.


I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, the cruise industry creates lots of collateral jobs. The Seattle Times had an article commenting on the Canadian action banning cruise ship visits till a year from now, pointing out that the value to the Seattle economy was over 900 million dollars a year--in hotels, restaurants, etc. --spent by cruisers while in Seattle. These are businesses that are hurting badly as it is, and the workers in those areas are on the front lines of the economic harm of COVID. 

On the other hand, spending days packed on a big ship where many of the passengers would not have been vaccinated and probably won't be strictly adhering to masking protocols--that seems like a recipe for super-spreading of COVID. I might consider a small boat adventure cruise with a few dozen passengers onboard perhaps, but a large cruise ship seems like it is asking for trouble. Only, it wouldn't be merely norovirus, it would be the much, much more serious COVID virus. The current regulations only apply to vessels with more than 100 passengers. Honestly, that would be the absolute high end of my comfort range, PVSA regs or not.


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## jiml

The horror stories from early-on in the pandemic where whole ships were infected, not getting food or adequate cleaning and no ports to go to, do not bode well for the industry until Covid is well in the rear-view mirror. Also, if they follow the same model as hotels, slashing luxuries and housekeeping, how will they attract the large numbers needed to be recapture their markets? Imagine a lot of "no frills" cruises with no buffets, eating in one's room and no congregating in the sports areas/nightclubs/gyms/casino. Hardly the model for success.


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## me_little_me

flitcraft said:


> I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, the cruise industry creates lots of collateral jobs. The Seattle Times had an article commenting on the Canadian action banning cruise ship visits till a year from now, pointing out that the value to the Seattle economy was over 900 million dollars a year--in hotels, restaurants, etc. --spent by cruisers while in Seattle. These are businesses that are hurting badly as it is, and the workers in those areas are on the front lines of the economic harm of COVID.


On the other hand, it's not like visitors to Seattle can't get there any other way. In addition to planes, they can travel much safer in trains. Then they can "Cruise American" like "Buy American"! 

It will also help American small ship lines that can hire locals and pay American taxes.


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## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> t is restricted to serve the Hawaiian market, and if it does leave that market, it gives up its right to be US flagged. NCL is not likely to give up its monopoly in that market,



The Wikipedia article that you posted stated "The American registry allows the ship to travel solely between U. S. ports." The article does not say that POA is restricted to the Hawaiian market. Not knowing other "legalese" that may exist concerning POA, why wouldn't cruises between Seattle and any/all of the Alaskan ports with no calls at a Canadian port be possible? 

I agree with your thinking that NCL would likely be unwilling to give up its monopoly in the Hawaiian market. (Their prices on a per day basis for a 7 day cruise have been exceedingly high in my experience.) Late Spring/Summer/early Fall in Alaska and then a return to Hawaii for the rest of the year is what I envision. And, they could probably charge the same high fares for an Alaska season if "they are the only game in town". At least, for 2021 if the CDC does allow cruising to begin that would allow an Alaskan cruise season.


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## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> The Wikipedia article that you posted stated "The American registry allows the ship to travel solely between U. S. ports." The article does not say that POA is restricted to the Hawaiian market. Not knowing other "legalese" that may exist concerning POA, why wouldn't cruises between Seattle and any/all of the Alaskan ports with no calls at a Canadian port be possible?


You're correct...the wiki article only states that the ship was granted a special exemption, to be US registered, but it doesn't elaborate beyond that point. I did hear that it was only for the Hawaiian market, and that it would lose that exemption, if it redeployed. I will go back to the source of that, and attempt to find the missing facts, and report back...


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## Night Ranger

At the height of the norovirus outbreaks, I heard cruise ships described as "floating Petri dishes." That's an accurate description in my opinion and not just for norovirus. I lament the loss of those collateral jobs too but locally, people won't even mask up for the local yearly boat show. I'm sure they wouldn't on a cruise either.

Can the industry recover? I hope so for the sake of those collateral jobs but right now is just not the time to climb into a seagoing Petri dish where neither mask wearing nor social distancing will be practiced.


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## railiner

Still haven't found the actual document, but did come across this comment from an NCL spokesperson, in a trade publication...









Pride of America Won't Be Redeployed from Hawaii - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News


Norwegian Cruise Line's Pride of America, the only modern large cruise ship with a U.S. flag, won't be cruising outside of the Hawaii islands anytime soon, according to a spokesperson for Norwegian. "During this time of uncertainty, some have speculated that Norwegian’s Pride of America vessel...




www.cruiseindustrynews.com





I am still seeking the actual document...


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## PVD

Political Savvy Gets U.S. Flags On Foreign Ship - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Good luck finding one, it is an insert into the annual congressional spending authorization in 2003


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## railiner

Thanks for the tip..I did find it..
It is buried in Public Law 108-7, Division B, Title II, Section 211. If you pull up the PDF document, it is on pages 69 and 70.


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## hlcteacher

i look forward to taking the train to miami, seattle or tampa to cruise again...i will not have a problem with being served at the buffet (an upgrade imho) or wearing a mask unless in my cabin--starting to look for masks to match my cruisewear...


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## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Thanks for the tip..I did find it..
> It is buried in Public Law 108-7, Division B, Title II, Section 211. If you pull up the PDF document, it is on pages 69 and 70.



_Cruise Industry News_ is a reliable source of industry information. And, finding the restriction in Law, there goes my idea/suggestion.


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## jiml

Alaska lashes out after Canada extends cruise ban until 2022



"The extension effectively kills the Seattle-Alaska cruise season for foreign-flagged ships, Cruise Industry News says , as it does for ships under foreign flag in other cruise areas such as the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence and Canada/New England."


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## Exvalley

People are oversimplifying the issue of foreign labor on cruise ships.

On the surface, the wages that the foreign workers are paid seem almost criminal. But the reality is that, for many of these workers, the wages they are paid on a cruise ship are vastly greater than any opportunity they have where they live. One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people.

But why not just pay them more? My concern is that people from more prosperous places would then take those jobs - and the people from the very poorest countries, who need economic opportunity the most, would find themselves out of a job - or at least having to compete much harder to get a job.

As I said... it's complicated.


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> People are oversimplifying the issue of foreign labor on cruise ships.
> 
> On the surface, the wages that the foreign workers are paid seem almost criminal. But the reality is that, for many of these workers, the wages they are paid on a cruise ship are vastly greater than any opportunity they have where they live. One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people.
> 
> But why not just pay them more? My concern is that people from more prosperous places would then take those jobs - and the people from the very poorest countries, who need economic opportunity the most, would find themselves out of a job - or at least having to compete much harder to get a job.
> 
> As I said... it's complicated.


This is the same reasoning that caused Racists, Bigots, Opponents of raising the Minimum Wageand other supporters of Slavery and mistreated Immigrants,( and sadly there are still supporters of this trope) to say that the Slaves and Immigrants were so much better off over here than they would be back where they came from.


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## Exvalley

Bob Dylan said:


> This is the same reasoning that caused Racists and Bigots, and other supporters of Slavery and mistreated Immigrants( and sadly there are still supporters of this trope) to say that the Slaves and Immigrants were so much better off over here than they would be back where they came from.


Easy there...

You will notice that I did not comment on working conditions, etc. All I said is that the issue is complicated - which it absolutely is. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, then I am all ears. But inflammatory words alone don't anything of substance to the conversation.


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> Easy there...
> 
> You will notice that I did not comment on working conditions, etc. All I said is that the issue is complicated - which it absolutely is. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, then I am all ears. But inflammatory hyperbole isn't adding anything to the conversation.


I understand your point, please understand mine, no offense meant towards you.

The same principle and arguement was followed by the Pullman Company , and the Robber Barons that built the Railroads, which were some of the most Anti- worker Companies in this Country.


Explotation of Essential Workers and those that do the " Dirty Jobs" is one of the Corner Stones of Capitalism.The Pandemic is once again showing the truth of this.

Cue Bob Dylan singing " Sundown on the Union".


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## Exvalley

Bob Dylan said:


> Explotation of Essential Workers and those that do the " Dirty Jobs" is one of the Corner Stones of Capitalism.
> 
> Cue Bob Dylan singing " Sundown on the Union".


And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism. I have seen many articles about families who could afford to put their children into private schools thanks to cruise ship jobs. That may seem impossible to us on cruise ship wages, but in the Philippines it is absolutely possible.

Just look at the crushing impact the shutdown of the cruise industry has had on the poorest people who live on this planet:








Developing World Loses Billions in Money From Migrant Workers


An economic pillar of developing economies is crumbling as Mexicans, Filipinos, Bangladeshis and others lose their jobs abroad because of coronavirus impacts. It’s left their families and home countries struggling. ‘I’m scared sick.’




www.wsj.com





If we waved a magic wand and paid everyone on a cruise ship $80,000 per year and limited their hours to 40 hours per week - do you honestly think that cruise ships would hire as many people from the most impoverished nations? And if they didn't, do you honestly think that all that money would continue to flow from the pockets of middle class and rich people to some of the poorest people on the planet?

I don't know what the right answer is. I just know that it's easy to armchair quarterback when you come from a place of privilege.


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism.
> 
> Just look at the crushing impact the shutdown of the cruise industry has had on the poorest people who live on this planet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Developing World Loses Billions in Money From Migrant Workers
> 
> 
> An economic pillar of developing economies is crumbling as Mexicans, Filipinos, Bangladeshis and others lose their jobs abroad because of coronavirus impacts. It’s left their families and home countries struggling. ‘I’m scared sick.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


Last comment on this subject, paying someone $2 an hour is inhumane no matter what the justification!( in Texas this is what Waitstaff are paid since they depend on tips for a " Liveable wage"!)

"Jefeism", akaThe White Mans Burden or Manifest Destiny, needs to belong to the ash heap of History!


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## Exvalley

Bob Dylan said:


> Last comment on this subject, paying someone $2 an hour is inhumane no matter what the justification!( in Texas this is what Waitstaff are paid since they depend on tips for a " Liveable wage"!)
> 
> "Jefeism", akaThe White Mans Burden or Manifest Destiny, needs to belong to the ash heap of History!


You don't seem to understand how countries are able to lift their people out of poverty. What do you think would happen if Bangladesh, the Philippines, or Vietnam all of the sudden set the minimum wage at $15 per hour? I can assure you that millions of people would quickly find themselves out of a job - or at best working under the table for no more money in unregulated conditions.

Again... if you told Carnival that they had to pay cabin stewards $80,000 per year and limited their hours to 40 per week, do you really think that they would hire as many of the poorest people on the planet? 

This article explains the dilemma well: Should developing countries increase their minimum wages? Guest post by Andrés Ham

And, no, waiters in Texas are not making $2 an hour. They are making $2 an hour plus tips. If they were only making $2 per hour they wouldn't work as a waiter since they could earn many times that by taking just a minimum wage job.

For the record, I am all for better working conditions and increased employee rights. I just am cognizant that sometimes what we think (from our place of privilege) is the best solution can actually do more harm than good.


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## PVD

Let us skip for a moment the worker issue, and look at the issue of avoidance of US taxes by offshoring most assets and profits. If you are in business making money off of us, pay your fare share.


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## Exvalley

PVD said:


> Let us skip for a moment the worker issue, and look at the issue of avoidance of US taxes by offshoring most assets and profits.


This is why I do not support a taxpayer funded bailout.


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## Dakota 400

Exvalley said:


> This is why I do not support a taxpayer funded bailout.



And, that is what didn't happen when Carnival Corporation Chairman Micky Arison contacted his friend, the 45th President of the United States when financial assistance began to be considered by the Federal Government due to the pandemic. (According to the reports that I have read.)


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people. [...] I have seen many articles about families who could afford to put their children into private schools thanks to cruise ship jobs. That may seem impossible to us on cruise ship wages, but in the Philippines it is absolutely possible.


Why should we be responsible for employing Bangladeshi and Filipino citizens at the expense of other Americans? Around 25 million Americans still have no healthcare and up to 40% cannot put their hands on $400. I'm willing to support a global minimum wage, to provide targeted financial assistance where it can do the most good, and to accept qualified immigrants in a manner similar to the Canadian system - but I have little interest in handing tens-of-thousands of North American jobs to foreigners just because they're willing to take them from us.



Exvalley said:


> And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism.


If capitalism is the key why are the top entries in the economic mobility chart populated with socialistic countries?


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> Why should we be responsible for employing Bangladeshi and Filipino citizens at the expense of fellow Americans?


 (1) Because we should think globally and want to see the poorest people on this planet lifted out of abject poverty; and (2) Because cruise ships operate internationally and will never be subject to exclusively American laws - not at least without recourse that would be worse than the remedy; and (3) Because you are engaging in the logical fallacy of believing that, if labor costs go up substantially, that cruise prices will not be meaningfully impacted, that demand will remain the same, and countless people won't be out of work anyway.

As I said... it's complicated.



Devil's Advocate said:


> If capitalism is the key why are the top entries in the economic mobility chart populated with socialistic countries?


You have made the mistake of thinking that the Nordic countries are socialist. They are all open economies that cherish free trade. Don't confuse socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs.








Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist


As much as liberals like to use Nordic countries as examples that socialism and successful societies can co-exist, the reality is that these countries are not socialist, or even farther along the spectrum toward socialism than most other developed countries.




www.forbes.com





Now if you want to talk about enhancing the social safety net in the United States... I am completely on board with that.


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## Dakota 400

Exvalley said:


> As I said... it's complicated.



Indeed, is is a complicated issue. US Labor Laws play a role in the issue. And, that then gets politics entangled in the issue.

It is a fact to which I will testify as a result of many conversations with cruise ship staff members from Asian countries, particularly. They work on the ships for whatever the cruise line pays, for whatever duration their contract requires, for a variety of reasons. Number 1 is almost always to be a better provider for their family than they could be if they sought employment in their home country. Number 2 has consistently been their desire to earn sufficient funds to open a business in their home country. The small basic salaries that these good people earn are augmented by "some fringe benefits" that most cruise guests are unaware (and probably don't care). 

Gratuities that the crew receive are significant to them. Those gratuities are on top of their basic salary. I always plan on offering additional tips above what my shipboard account is charged for those crew that have earned it. When one takes the per day gratuity charge and break it down into how much each of the main staff members that serve one: it's a shockingly low amount/person, in my opinion. 

It hurts my soul when I learn of or witness a fellow guest not offering an end of a cruise gratuity to a Steward/Stewardess that has worked their heart out to serve them. And, that situation has become more commonplace than not. Last night of a cruise, I usually delay my departure from the dining room just to be a "people watcher". My most recent observations: more and more people leave their table without a word or an envelope, etc. to their Stewards. There also seems to be more guests than usual who choose not to dine in the MDR that last night. 

Maybe my thinking is influenced that, like rail travel in the 1950's and 1960's, I came to learn what was a proper practice when I began to cruise in 1970 and the years that followed.


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> Because we should think globally and want to see the poorest people on this planet lifted out of poverty?


I listed several ways I was willing to work toward that goal without handing American jobs to foreign workers.

1. Global minimum wage
2. Targeted financial assistance
3. Accepting more qualified immigrants

Forfeiting American jobs to employ more foreigners is an unsustainable solution that merely robs Peter to pay Paul.



Exvalley said:


> Because cruise ships operate internationally and will never be subject to exclusively American laws - not at least without recourse that would be worse than the remedy


The US is the largest cruise market in the world and they need us more than we need them.



Exvalley said:


> Because you are engaging in the logical fallacy of believing that, if labor costs go up substantially, that cruise prices will not be meaningfully impacted, that demand will remain the same, and countless people won't be out of work anyway.


I never made any claim of this sort, and would frankly be fine with raising prices, but I'm also willing to reduce _some_ of the bureaucracy and tax burden in exchange for a larger minimum percentage of American workers.



Exvalley said:


> You have made the mistake of thinking that the Nordic countries are socialist. They are all open economies that cherish free trade. Their economies are fully open and trade globally. Don't confuse socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs.


I never said they had a closed market or that capitalism played no role in their economy. I said they were _socialistic_ because they employ a _mix_ of ideologies rather than relying on blind faith in capitalism alone.


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> I listed several ways I was willing to work toward that goal without handing American jobs to foreign workers.
> 
> 1. Global minimum wage


Never going to happen. And if it did happen jobs in the poorest countries would literally evaporate. And let's not even talk about the risk of rampant inflation.



Devil's Advocate said:


> 2. Targeted financial assistance


Not nearly as efficient as empowering people to make their own determinations as to what is best for them financially.



Devil's Advocate said:


> 3. Accepting more qualified immigrants


While I am for immigration, this runs counter to your "protect the jobs of people already here" argument.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I never said they had a closed market or that capitalism played no role in their economy. I said they were _socialistic_ because they employ a _mix_ of ideologies rather than relying on blind faith in capitalism alone.


Your contortionist semantic argument aside, all of those countries are capitalist countries - and their economies would not be nearly as robust without those strong capitalist underpinnings. Therefore, they are not at all persuasive in support of your suggestion that capitalism is not a viable system to lift people out of poverty. Just look at China. Look at when China really started lifting many of its citizens out of poverty. I will give you one hint as to what change they made: it wasn't doubling down on socialism. Put another way, no economic system has created more wealth and opportunity than capitalism has.

If you want to argue that a Nordic social safety net model is better at lifting people out of poverty, I am all ears. If you want to argue against crony capitalism, I am all ears. If you want to argue over proper taxation rates, I am all ears. But you simply cannot say that socialism creates as much wealth and opportunity as capitalism.


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> Never going to happen. And if it did happen jobs in the poorest countries would literally evaporate. And let's not even talk about the risk of rampant inflation.


Critics have leveraged the same attacks against state and national wage increases but despite these claims most of our job losses have come from increased productivity, mechanization, automation, and outsourcing. I can imagine jobs that manufacture most of the counterfeit trash on Wish and Aliexpress would start to wind down in response to a global minimum wage but is that really a bad thing?



Exvalley said:


> While I am for immigration, this runs counter to your "protect the jobs of people already here" argument.


I said I would support accepting "qualified immigrants in a manner similar to the Canadian system" as it would likely be much cheaper and more productive than further militarizing our vast border areas. In many cases this involves the relatives of US citizens who are indeed already here.



Exvalley said:


> Your contortionist semantic argument aside, all of those countries are capitalist countries - and their economies would not be nearly as robust without those strong capitalist underpinnings. Therefore, they are not at all persuasive in support of your suggestion that capitalism is not a viable system to lift people out of poverty.


So how do you explain Bangladesh then? They remain poor and polluted with limited upward mobility despite embracing capitalism. Why is the wealth genie not enough for them?


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> So how do you explain Bangladesh then? They remain poor and polluted with limited upward mobility despite embracing capitalism. Why is the wealth genie not enough for them?


I would explain Bangladesh by saying that poverty declined from 44.2 percent in 1991 to 13.8 percent in 2016 - which correlates with a rapid expansion and diversification of capitalism. Life expectancy, literacy rates and per capita food production have all increased. In 2018, Bangladesh met the eligibility criteria for graduation from the United Nation’s Least Developed Countries (LDC) list, and is on track to graduate in 2024. Bangladesh has one of the fastest rates of agriculture productivity growth in the world since 1995 (2.7 percent per year, second only to China). Bangladesh now has an average growth rate of 8% - well above the Asian average.









Bangladesh’s economy is soaring - here's why


Bangladesh hopes to lose its Least Developed Country classification within five years.




www.weforum.org





Much of this success story is directly attributable to one of the greatest capitalist institutions ever created - the Grameen Bank.



https://www0.gsb.columbia.edu/mygsb/faculty/research/pubfiles/848/Grameen_Bank_v04.pdf



Are you seriously arguing that socialism creates more wealth and opportunity than capitalism?


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> Are you seriously arguing that socialism creates more wealth and opportunity than capitalism?


I'm arguing that capitalism does not distinguish between enriching and defrauding citizens. What goes up eventually comes down and when capitalism reaches a certain point in the post-expansion period it starts to run out of momentum and turn on itself. Put another way the speculative casino aspect overwhelms the functional economy. A practical method for addressing these issues is to abandon our infatuation with free market solutions and combine the the better aspects of multiple ideologies in order to successfully manage post-expansion economies. It is my belief that we will _eventually_ realize that even supposedly infallible capitalism is fundamentally flawed when worshiped blindly.


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> What goes up eventually comes down and when capitalism reaches a certain point in the post-expansion period it starts to run out of momentum and turn on itself.


At this point I suspect you are just trolling. If you were correct, we would literally be back in caves trying to light a fire with flint. You have fallen for the zero-sum gain fallacy, which has been thoroughly debunked.

But enough of this. Back to cruise ship discussion... We should keep on point.


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## hlcteacher

as an annual cruiser (well, not in 2020, had to cancel 2) i have seen a change in the ethnicity of the persons who work the lower end jobs on cruise ships...but never ever would i think to NOT tip them well for the hard work they do to make me feel special, just as i tip restaurant workers (and those who deliver my groceries now) i know from experience how low paid they are; i look forward to cruising again, just as i look forward to taking the train again; the validity of why we needed the Pullman's Union is probably just as appropriate for cruise ship workers; i have spent much time speaking with persons who were Pullman members-back in the day, including family members and often remember their stories as i cruise and see how the workers are often treated by the "entitled" ones-just my two cents worth (i was planning to cruise to alaska last year, and then this year...now i am looking to next year, and buying masks to match both my train and cruise clothes...)


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