# Amtrak Dining service



## Railspike

I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.


In this Pandemic age, tasty ready-to-eat microwavable entrees are readily available from various sources (meals by mail, grocery stores, and restaurants, etc.). There is no excuse for serving terrible tasting food on Amtrak. Unless of course, that's the goal. They have to know the food they are serving is terrible based on reviews. Is it because of the cost to Amtrak? Wouldn't this be an opportune time to try different recipes or contract an outside supplier?

I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible. 


With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?


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## me_little_me

Railspike said:


> With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?


This whole topic is the subject of many threads but as far as meeting the train, the biggest issue is the unreliability of arrival. I've been on Amtrak trains that have gone from an estimated arrival at a station of a few minutes to getting there an hour later.


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## Railspike

me_little_me said:


> This whole topic is the subject of many threads but as far as meeting the train, the biggest issue is the unreliability of arrival. I've been on Amtrak trains that have gone from an estimated arrival at a station of a few minutes to getting there an hour later.


Agree. The truck would have to follow 'Track Your Train'. There would certainly be times that the truck would miss the train (or the train would miss the truck) but that would be part of the risk. Hopefully, the truck would make more meets than misses. As in any business, if there were more misses than makes, they would cease meeting the train altogether.


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## Sidney

Again...if flexible dining is here to stay,and I'm afraid it is,why can't there be an improvement in what is being offered?


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## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> Again...if flexible dining is here to stay,and I'm afraid it is,why can't there be an improvement in what is being offered?



There can and there likely will be eventually. 

About 15 years ago we went through this exact same thing with simplified dining and then after that we got some of the best dining in Amtrak history with the chef inspired meals.


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## Maglev

No matter how carefully you monitor a train's progress, it could arrive in a station at any time. I was on a northbound _Coast Starlight _that was on time arriving Oakland, so we vacated our hotel room at the Hyatt across the tracks from the station in Emeryville. But the train was delayed an hour with switching of deadhead cars after leaving Oakland. Another time, I was delayed half an hour a hundred yards from the station in Eugene by a faulty switch.


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## tgstubbs1

Food trucks might be advised to keep in touch with incoming Amtrak by cell if possible. 

It seems to me if a person wants a great dining experience on a train they are better off finding a regional tourist package.


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## Qapla

It nay be that food trucks may not find "allowable" spaces to park neat/at train stations. A station like the one in JAX would require them to park on Amtrak property and that may not be allowed.

Perhaps, if now, before Jan 20, "Amtrak Joe" were to receive several hundred (thousand) letters about the dismal flex-dining it would get some attention a little sooner.


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## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> It nay be that food trucks may not find "allowable" spaces to park neat/at train stations. A station like the one in JAX would require them to park on Amtrak property and that may not be allowed.
> 
> Perhaps, if now, before Jan 20, "Amtrak Joe" were to receive several hundred (thousand) letters about the dismal flex-dining it would get some attention a little sooner.


If Amtrak would proactively help food trucks they might be much more successful.


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## IndyLions

I appreciate the creativity, but this is a bad idea. It’s just going to cause delays and it is inconvenient for customers in multiple ways.

It’s as simple as eliminating the Mica rule and putting someone competent in charge of food service at Amtrak - period.

Call it an oversimplification, but I don’t agree.


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## AmtrakFlyer

“It’s as simple as eliminating the Mica rule and putting someone competent in charge of XXXX XXXXXX XX Amtrak - period.”

Honestly today’s election results in GA should help a lot. Going to be an interesting track forward.


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## Devil's Advocate

Unless I'm mistaken the Mica rule was recently nullified through language included by the House, at least in the sense that there are no repercussions for defying it, and is no longer an active threat to anyone willing to improve Amtrak's dining service. Unfortunately the affects of the pandemic and limited service schedule are still working against us.


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## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> There can and there likely will be eventually.
> 
> About 15 years ago we went through this exact same thing with simplified dining and then after that we got some of the best dining in Amtrak history with the chef inspired meals.


Let's hope History repeats itself under "Amtrak Joe's" Administration.


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## MARC Rider

Railspike said:


> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.



While I agree that the quality of the flex meal food could be a lot better, having sampled it extensively last year on my trip to and from the Gathering, I believe that descriptions like "mystery meat," "vomit," and "throw it in the trash" are a bit over the top. The food's health profile is not the best, being overloaded with sugar and salt, but that sort of thing is true with almost all commercially prepared food today, even from high end gourmet restaurants (although their main problems are large portion sizes and food heavy on butter and other fats.) I had the opportunity to sample every item on the menu (a Capitol Limited dinner/breakfast westbound and a Cardinal dinner/breakfast/lunch/dinner eastbound), and everything was perfectly edible, although the Cajun shrimp with rice had, perhaps, a bit too much chili pepper seasoning (and I am a fan of spicy foods.)

In my opinion, the main problem with it is that there is insufficient variety, especially if you take anything more than a short overnight trip. (If you know enough to pre-order a kosher meal -- 72 hours in advance -- you do get a little more, but not much, variety.) The breakfasts are also inadequate unless you have a friendly LSA who gives you seconds (as I did on the Cardinal.) 

I don't think that the fare offered by food trucks, even good, high quality food trucks, would be a good substitute for either traditional dining or the flex dining.


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## fdaley

Railspike said:


> I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible.



This is the bottom line for me too. Right now I'm not taking any trips because of the pandemic. But perhaps later this year, if the vaccines are widely distributed and new case numbers go way down, I will begin to think about traveling again. If Amtrak hasn't restored dining service or made significant improvements to the current food offerings, then Amtrak's long distance trains won't be under consideration as a way for me to go places. And like you, I have been using those trains since the '70s.


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## fdaley

And yes, RPA reported a few months back that the Mica rule was deleted, so there is no longer any statutory requirement that Amtrak's food service cover its own costs. Which means dining service should go back to what it has always been: an amenity that helps to attract and retain riders.


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## tgstubbs1

MARC Rider said:


> I don't think that the fare offered by food trucks, even good, high quality food trucks, would be a good substitute for either traditional dining or the flex dining.


There are many restaurants going out of business that are trying food trucks to cope with the covid virus.

They are better for social distancing. 

If I were traveling on a LD train in this pandemic I would be looking out the window to spot any food opportunities.

Unless I liked the flex menu.


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## MARC Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> There are many restaurants going out of business that are trying food trucks to cope with the covid virus.
> 
> They are better for social distancing.
> 
> If I were traveling on a LD train in this pandemic I would be looking out the window to spot any food opportunities.
> 
> Unless I liked the flex menu.


As a long-time customer of food trucks, I can assure you that they are not good for social distancing, as you need to stand in line for a long time while your food is prepared.

For long distance trains during this pandemic, the best type of food service is probably a tray meal served in your room or at your seat. In other words, flex dining.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> For long distance trains during this pandemic, the best type of food service is probably a tray meal served in your room or at your seat. In other words, flex dining.



“Flex dining” in the style of service? Yes I agree. 

“Flex dining” in the quality of meals offered? I disagree. Much better quality should be available. The pre-made meals on the Empire Builder out of Portland are a good example.


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## fixj

Where is Fred Harvey when we need him?


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## me_little_me

tgstubbs1 said:


> Food trucks might be advised to keep in touch with incoming Amtrak by cell if possible.
> 
> It seems to me if a person wants a great dining experience on a train they are better off finding a regional tourist package.


First, food trucks would be inadequate to handle the potentially large crowds (including coach passengers) who suddenly want their hot food, drinks, etc and who all have to pay. Nowhere enough time even at most "smoking" stops. Would cause too much delay. The only externally supplied food would be something already prepared, heated, paid for, named for specific passenger, and directly turned over to Amtrak crew so it could be distributed even as the train leaves the station or after. Then what happens if someone wanting or NEEDING a specific thing (no mayo, not too spicy, gluten free, etc) doesn't get the correct thing or meals are mixed up and one person is already eating the wrong thing. The burrito lady in El Paso can do it because it is a small cash business with only a few different items kept warm in insulated container instead of a truck but they are all unique to that one stop so there is no need or capability for "specials" and the stop is long and in the middle of the day. Moreover, there are no guarantees that she will be there so there is no dependency on her presence.

As to "great dining experience", few here are expecting the "great" on this forum. Most want a variety of good edible food and at least some "experience" considering the cost of the sleeper.


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## Sidney

"Me Little Me"nailed it. The fact the food is so bland and there is not enough variety and the fact the sleeper prices have remained high. I understand flex dining on the Western trains because of the pedemic,but can't the quality improve and a bigger variety offered? 

I'll be on a ten day circle trip starting a week from Friday. I am going to ask if I could mix the cafe food with the flex stuff. The cafe food isn't much better but at least I could grab a burger or a frozen pizza.


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## Devil's Advocate

The cafe food has a lower target quality but seems to get closer to actually reaching it. Or at least it did before the pandemic. Doesn't sound like they carry many of the previous options anymore. The thing that blows my mind is that nearly everything I need or want from my hometown markets and restaurants has remained available through 90% of the pandemic. This implies to me that suppliers are keeping up with demand and contractual obligations just fine. So what is Amtrak's excuse for why their food service is so severely impacted? The airlines have also cut way back but airports still have food, which most Amtrak stations cannot claim, and I don't need to be fed on a domestic flight.


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## zephyr17

AmtrakFlyer said:


> “It’s as simple as eliminating the Mica rule and putting someone competent in charge of XXXX XXXXXX XX Amtrak - period.”
> 
> Honestly today’s election results in GA should help a lot. Going to be an interesting track forward.


Mica rule is already gone. They stuck the repeal into the first COVID relief package, IIRC


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## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> Mica rule is already gone. They stuck the repeal into the first COVID relief package, IIRC


Didnt Mica get elected to some office in Florida??


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## fdaley

Bob Dylan said:


> Didnt Mica get elected to some office in Florida??



Even his own constituents grew weary of his schtick and booted him out of office in 2016. His whole campaign against Amtrak's food service was more about scoring political points than about actually saving money. 

Now, it certainly was worth asking whether Amtrak could have delivered palatable meal service for less than what it was spending. But any change needed to be something that wouldn't actively drive away customers, which is what flex dining was doing before the pandemic and will continue to do in the future if nothing is changed.


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## Palmetto

Bob Dylan said:


> Didnt Mica get elected to some office in Florida??



Just checked Wikipedia. It seems not.


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## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> Didnt Mica get elected to some office in Florida??


Head of Food Services for Florida School systems?


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## OBS

Palmetto said:


> Just checked Wikipedia. It seems not.


You are thinking of Daryl Issa, another Amtrak Gadfly, that just returned to Congress after previously being voted out....


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## 20th Century Rider

Railspike said:


> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.
> 
> 
> In this Pandemic age, tasty ready-to-eat microwavable entrees are readily available from various sources (meals by mail, grocery stores, and restaurants, etc.). There is no excuse for serving terrible tasting food on Amtrak. Unless of course, that's the goal. They have to know the food they are serving is terrible based on reviews. Is it because of the cost to Amtrak? Wouldn't this be an opportune time to try different recipes or contract an outside supplier?
> 
> I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible.
> 
> 
> With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?



This topic has been discussed in many strands on the forum. Most are in agreement that the Flex Dining concept is absolutely offensive and horrible... no taste, no texture, small portions, and just plain objectionable. Even with covid, this is unacceptable and suggestions have been made to at least allow sleeping car passengers get meals from the cafe... there are reports that this has been offered in some situations.

So you are not alone in your anger. Add to that the fares going up... and many of us are delaying Amtrak travel. Eating this stuff on a cross country trip is simply not something I will not do!









Amtrak's cuts to dining service spurs Congress to action


Critics charge the halt of restaurant-style dining is part of an effort to make long-distance routes, a target of Trump administration cuts, less appealing.




www.rollcall.com


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## Seaboard92

If you went to the food truck method you would really allow passenger rail dining to devolve to levels not seen since the mid to late 1800s. When trains would pull into a town for a meal stop and everyone would hustle off to get whatever grub they could get, then hustle back twenty minutes later. Some places purposely made the food too hot so people wouldn't finish it all, then they would use the same food over for the next train. 

We are in 2021 lets not step back to the 1800s.


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## AmtrakFlyer

He’s 78 now so probably not, you might be thinking of Darrel Issa from CA ran for Duncan Hunters vacated seat and won it. Both very anti Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr

This is an Amtrak management issue. It takes one person to call up the supplier and order better quality menu items. That’s all it takes to improve the food quality. 

Now to get full service dining back requires a few more steps but I don’t think table service is a requirement for Amtrak, decent quality food options are especially for $1000+ sleeping car accommodations.


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## Devil's Advocate

I wish I knew more about how airlines like BR, JL, CX, & SQ managed the logistics and economics of their premium cabin meals (before C19). That food was both easily transported and good enough that you genuinely looked forward to it, or at least I did. To be fair not everything they served was amazing but on flights leaving home base the mains were as good as anything I've had on a train. I can't help but wonder why this cannot be incorporated into our train service. I guess it has been on the Acela but with some modifications it could be a reasonable solution for long distance trains as well. Amtrak rests in SAS during downtime hours when the airport is dead and a truck from an airline caterer could quickly drive down 281 to restock meals on a daily basis (if that ever comes back again). I used to be lukewarm on this kind of plan but in the face of nationwide flexicon meals I'd happily take this over the status quo.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> This is an Amtrak management issue. It takes one person to call up the supplier and order better quality menu items. That’s all it takes to improve the food quality.
> 
> Now to get full service dining back requires a few more steps but I don’t think table service is a requirement for Amtrak, decent quality food options are especially for $1000+ sleeping car accommodations.



Hope is out there for Amtrak... we need to get past the pandemic first... and pent up demand will bring people back in droves to patronize goods and services that will build the economy. And more hope with the man who will take an Amtrak train to his inauguration. 

And like Crescent-Zephyr said... we should expect all Amtrak services to improve in sync with $1000 plus sleeping car accommodations.


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## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> I wish I knew more about how airlines like BR, JL, CX, & SQ managed the logistics and economics of their premium cabin meals (before C19). That food was both easily transported and good enough that you genuinely looked forward to it, or at least I did.


You're not the only one, and frankly most of the North American carriers were quite capable of delivering excellent premium food on international flights as well. I've had meals on both AA and United that could be described as memorable - not that long ago. (Other than Alaska, domestic food is a race to the bottom.)



Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak rests in SAS during downtime hours when the airport is dead and a truck from an airline caterer could quickly drive down 281 to restock meals on a daily basis (if that ever comes back again). I used to be lukewarm on this kind of plan but in the face of nationwide flexicon meals I'd happily take this over the status quo.


This is a really good plan that should get more attention. Home bases are obvious, but there's a number of places mid-route this would be viable - Denver and SLC come to mind immediately. Heck, Amtrak should be able to negotiate a discount for keeping flight kitchens busy in "off" hours. Some LD trains do lack an appropriate mid-point stop, but that didn't stop the Empire Builder from loading chicken dinners in Montana in the past.


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## Seaboard92

What we really need again is local management on each of the routes like we had back in the 90s. That is essentially what Russian Railways does with their "Branded Trains" which are still technically owned and operated by the Federal Passenger Company (RZD Subsidiary) but are independently managed by the local divisions. 

If we really wanted to take it to the extreme we could follow the Russian model completely. The "Branded Trains' get a special surcharge put on top of the ticket price because it is a branded train however trains can also loose their "branded status". Every ten years they have to meet certain standards in customer service, OTP, Equipment Standards, and food in order to keep that coveted status. Every year they hold a competition between the 16 Railway Directives for who has the best "Branded Train". 

They are judged in three categories best dining car, best service in luxury cars, and best overall train. They evaluate the overall design of the train, level of service, range of service for passengers, and obviously best food. The first part of the competition is a physical inspection of the rolling stock submitted for review, with the second part a video clip of the trains produced by the local managers. Good luck on finding information to see who has the best train because it's really hard to find online, but if you can read Russian, or use google translate you can find several news articles about the competitions. 

Now imagine if Amtrak would do this however I would structure it differently. Amtrak has 38 different branded services then have the long distance in one category, and the short corridors in a separate one and then do the top finalists be the top 14. We don't have nearly as many branded services as Russia does for each crew base because using their system the Empire Builder is bound to be in each competition because Seattle has it and the Cascades, same with Miami with the Silver Meteor, and Silver Star. 

Give the trains local management that can decide their own food service, their own regional specific decor, manage their own customer service standards, and turn them free to make decisions that are better made on the ground than at a corporate level. It really isn't that hard to have subfleets of cars because Amtrak already has that. Sometimes substitutions have to be made which is understandable. 

For instance the lounges on the Auto-Train are captive to that service. The Superliner Coach/Cafe are captive to the Pere Marquette, and Heartland Flyer. The Cross Country Cafe's are held on the Capitol Limited, and the City of New Orleans. The Business Class Superliner is captive to the Coast Starlight. So it wouldn't be that difficult to keep sleepers and coaches with local themes captive to certain routes. With the yards attempting to do the most minimum amount of switching possible it is entirely possible a car might stay stuck on a route for a long time. 

Then all we have to do is find an incentive to convince employees who are naturally suspicious of competitions formed by corporate to play along.


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## jiml

The next thing you know we'd have Pacific Parlour Cars with separate menus and wine tasting. Oh wait...


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## Sidney

As an Amtrak rider for more than 30 years I got to experience the Pacific Parlour Car and the food and free wine tastings. I also remember the free champagne on the Empire Builder,trivia and wine tastings. I remember happy hour in the sightseer car and so many other amenities. I still enjoy riding, but I sure miss those special touches that made long distance riding so enjoyable.


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## 20th Century Rider

Seaboard92 said:


> What we really need again is local management on each of the routes like we had back in the 90s. That is essentially what Russian Railways does with their "Branded Trains" which are still technically owned and operated by the Federal Passenger Company (RZD Subsidiary) but are independently managed by the local divisions.
> 
> If we really wanted to take it to the extreme we could follow the Russian model completely. The "Branded Trains' get a special surcharge put on top of the ticket price because it is a branded train however trains can also loose their "branded status". Every ten years they have to meet certain standards in customer service, OTP, Equipment Standards, and food in order to keep that coveted status. Every year they hold a competition between the 16 Railway Directives for who has the best "Branded Train".
> 
> They are judged in three categories best dining car, best service in luxury cars, and best overall train. They evaluate the overall design of the train, level of service, range of service for passengers, and obviously best food. The first part of the competition is a physical inspection of the rolling stock submitted for review, with the second part a video clip of the trains produced by the local managers. Good luck on finding information to see who has the best train because it's really hard to find online, but if you can read Russian, or use google translate you can find several news articles about the competitions.
> 
> Now imagine if Amtrak would do this however I would structure it differently. Amtrak has 38 different branded services then have the long distance in one category, and the short corridors in a separate one and then do the top finalists be the top 14. We don't have nearly as many branded services as Russia does for each crew base because using their system the Empire Builder is bound to be in each competition because Seattle has it and the Cascades, same with Miami with the Silver Meteor, and Silver Star.
> 
> Give the trains local management that can decide their own food service, their own regional specific decor, manage their own customer service standards, and turn them free to make decisions that are better made on the ground than at a corporate level. It really isn't that hard to have subfleets of cars because Amtrak already has that. Sometimes substitutions have to be made which is understandable.
> 
> For instance the lounges on the Auto-Train are captive to that service. The Superliner Coach/Cafe are captive to the Pere Marquette, and Heartland Flyer. The Cross Country Cafe's are held on the Capitol Limited, and the City of New Orleans. The Business Class Superliner is captive to the Coast Starlight. So it wouldn't be that difficult to keep sleepers and coaches with local themes captive to certain routes. With the yards attempting to do the most minimum amount of switching possible it is entirely possible a car might stay stuck on a route for a long time.
> 
> Then all we have to do is find an incentive to convince employees who are naturally suspicious of competitions formed by corporate to play along.





jiml said:


> The next thing you know we'd have Pacific Parlour Cars with separate menus and wine tasting. Oh wait...





Sidney said:


> As an Amtrak rider for more than 30 years I got to experience the Pacific Parlour Car and the food and free wine tastings. I also remember the free champagne on the Empire Builder,trivia and wine tastings. I remember happy hour in the sightseer car and so many other amenities. I still enjoy riding, but I sure miss those special touches that made long distance riding so enjoyable.



Wait! What's going on here??? AU'ers are reacting to not being treated the way they should on LD trains after paying $1000's for sleeping car fares. And that goes for me too... we are now paying huge fares and getting nothing more teeny tiny tastless mush meals that excel in fat, sodium, and carcinogens! They are unsatisfying, disgusting, and depressing! That little bit of genteel glamour and gourmet treatment from the recent past made us all feel as appreciated frequent customers for which in turn Amtrak was raking in our dollars.

Now they are raking in the same big bucks from us as they cut services to the bone.

Ok, there's a pandemic... but Amtrak should know the expectation is there... we've been patient and accepted zero customer services and amenities due to the pandemic... but patience is getting short and thin.

Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself... but suffering hardships while paying for upscale service which just isn't there... has my patience which to ware very thin. 

Speaking for myself only... but maybe for others perhaps as well... there is an expectation that an acceptable level of service for high fares paid... will return and bring satisfaction that is expected... once the pandemic has receded. 

Below... meal after meal the same, tasteless fat and sodium same same same meal... "gag me with that brownie!" Repeat, the same meal served day after day after day... booooooring!


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## west point

I fully support the concept of bring back a route manager for each route to increase ridership.Look how th coast Starlight did. Now as for intermediate station catering.. Here us a list of locations that should provide intermediate catering of level A very good to level B. fair to good. 
NYP -B probably difficult to get service to Moynihan ?
WASH - A
Richmond - B
Raleigh - B
Florence - B
Jacksonville - A-
Orlando - A
Atlanta - A
New Orleans - A oh that Cajun food
Memphis - B
Albany -B
Toledo - A-
IND or Cincinnati -B
STL - B
Kansas City - A
Dallas or FtWorth - A Denver - A
Tucson - B PHX probably too far away from Maricopa
Salt Lake - A
Albuquerque - A
StPaul - A
Minot - b
Emeryville - A
Portland, Or - A


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## Qapla

I have read a number of posts where people lament the days of free wine, champagne and other alcohol.

Not all travelers drink alcohol - but they do all eat. To me, the dismal food should be more of a concern than the lack of free alcohol along with the ever rising, already inflated cost of riding in a sleeper.


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## jloewen

Seaboard92 said:


> If you went to the food truck method you would really allow passenger rail dining to devolve to levels not seen since the mid to late 1800s. When trains would pull into a town for a meal stop and everyone would hustle off to get whatever grub they could get, then hustle back twenty minutes later. Some places purposely made the food too hot so people wouldn't finish it all, then they would use the same food over for the next train.
> 
> We are in 2021 lets not step back to the 1800s.


Not in the 1800s but in 1962 the NWern railroad en route from Duluth/Superior to Chicago stopped at Antigo for 20 minutes for lunch. Amazingly, they then added a cafe car at the next stop, 30 min. later!
Also, since trains in the 1800s were all steam (and much later, too) they had to stop every 40-80 miles for more fuel and water. At a hamlet in MS, an African American man made a living by walking the length of the train, on the outside I believe, calling "Hot coffee!" Hot coffee!" Eventually the place became known as the coffee stop and is now Hot Coffee, MS. Wikipedia has quite a different story, but who are you gonna believe, Wikipedia or a member of the AU forum?


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## railiner

IIRC, Amtrak already does, (or did?), have a 'competition' between trains. Didn't they have a "train of the year", at one time? They do indeed reward employees with special recognition for outstanding customer service, in the form of pins worn on uniforms, mention in the Company newspaper, and award dinner's, etc.
Not to mention consideration for promotion...


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## Railspike

Another option. Junk the terrible Flex meals and offer good microwavable meals. Here's the difference. The passenger would order their meal(s)s when they purchased their ticket. Amtrak could offer more variety and keep waste to a bare minimum. The meals could be available to sleeper passengers and included in the ticket price, or not included at all. If not included in the ticket price, then any passenger (sleeper or coach) could order their meal(s) in advance, at their option. When stocking the diner for a trip, the meals would be loaded, refrigerated, and identified by the passenger and/or room number, but already paid for. Amtrak could keep extra meals on hand at all times in case a passenger changed his/her mind during travel or if the train was running late. However, when the extra meals for that trip are all gone, they're all gone. 

The food has to be of a higher quality or this doesn't work. No one will want to pay in advance for a meal that quality-wise, is no better than the current offering.

If implemented as stated above, everybody wins. The passenger has the option to buy a meal or not, gets more selections, and tastier food. Amtrak gets the benefit of satisfied customers, meals prepaid, less waste and inventory, which equates to lower cost. The online menu could be ever-changing since the meals are prepared and paid for in advance. This would alleviate the issue of having to eat the same meals over a period of days if on a long LD trip. It should also reduce the cost of a sleeper ticket if not included in the ticket price. 

If a passenger paid for a meal in advance and did not travel, provided the trip was canceled within a prescribed time, the price paid for the meal could be refunded along with the ticket price. 

Obviously, there would be some bugs to work out. Experience and time should supply remedies.

Just a thought.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Do big airlines get a better deal for catering meals than Amtrak, because of their size?


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> Do big airlines get a better deal for catering meals than Amtrak, because of their size?



Doubtful. Pretty sure food & beverage loses money for them too. Just like many bars and restaurants lose money at hotels.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Doubtful. Pretty sure food & beverage loses money for them too. Just like many bars and restaurants lose money at hotels.



But it's important to note that Amtrak costs in food and beverage in it's $1000 + sleeper car fares. Ironically, as the food service declined to near nothing... fares have gone up!


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## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> But it's important to note that Amtrak costs in food and beverage in it's $1000 + sleeper car fares. Ironically, as the food service declined to near nothing... fares have gone up!



Oh of course! Some people just seem surprised that things cost money. The enemy is not the catering company, or the on board staff. 

The enemy is management that doesn’t understand who their customer is or what they want. 

To be totally fair... I think the original contemporary meals, the salad boxes, were a corporate guys idea of what a millennial eats. I never had one but the photos I saw they appeared to be pretty good quality. I’m not sure how we want from all salad boxes to all TV dinners but here we are.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh of course! Some people just seem surprised that things cost money. The enemy is not the catering company, or the on board staff.
> 
> The enemy is management that doesn’t understand who their customer is or what they want.
> 
> To be totally fair... I think the original contemporary meals, the salad boxes, were a corporate guys idea of what a millennial eats. I never had one but the photos I saw they appeared to be pretty good quality. I’m not sure how we want from all salad boxes to all TV dinners but here we are.



Exactly exactly exactly! Those first boxed meals came in a quality balsa box and green cloth carrying bag... and you could order a large complementary 500ml wine. There was also an amenity kit in the bedroom. So if I may repeat your quote one more time... which was well said, "I’m not sure how we want from all salad boxes to all TV dinners but here we are."

But... folks are really agitated with this and I have to think that eventually the management team that doesn't care about their customers is the management team that will be replaced! 









Quality, service, ambience go off the tracks with Amtrak's 'flexible dining"


Throughout the golden era of passenger rail service in the 1920s, ’30s, and early ’40s, and again in post-war America, railroads prided themselves on offering four-star restaurant quality meals and




www.wvgazettemail.com


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## me_little_me

Railspike said:


> Another option. Junk the terrible Flex meals and offer good microwavable meals. Here's the difference. The passenger would order their meal(s)s when they purchased their ticket. Amtrak could offer more variety and keep waste to a bare minimum. The meals could be available to sleeper passengers and included in the ticket price, or not included at all. If not included in the ticket price, then any passenger (sleeper or coach) could order their meal(s) in advance, at their option. When stocking the diner for a trip, the meals would be loaded, refrigerated, and identified by the passenger and/or room number, but already paid for. Amtrak could keep extra meals on hand at all times in case a passenger changed his/her mind during travel or if the train was running late. However, when the extra meals for that trip are all gone, they're all gone.
> 
> The food has to be of a higher quality or this doesn't work. No one will want to pay in advance for a meal that quality-wise, is no better than the current offering.
> 
> If implemented as stated above, everybody wins. The passenger has the option to buy a meal or not, gets more selections, and tastier food. Amtrak gets the benefit of satisfied customers, meals prepaid, less waste and inventory, which equates to lower cost. The online menu could be ever-changing since the meals are prepared and paid for in advance. This would alleviate the issue of having to eat the same meals over a period of days if on a long LD trip. It should also reduce the cost of a sleeper ticket if not included in the ticket price.
> 
> If a passenger paid for a meal in advance and did not travel, provided the trip was canceled within a prescribed time, the price paid for the meal could be refunded along with the ticket price.
> 
> Obviously, there would be some bugs to work out. Experience and time should supply remedies.
> 
> Just a thought.


So could you explain why the meals should be microwaveable instead of heated in a convection oven?


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## 20th Century Rider

Railspike said:


> Another option. Junk the terrible Flex meals and offer good microwavable meals. Here's the difference. The passenger would order their meal(s)s when they purchased their ticket. Amtrak could offer more variety and keep waste to a bare minimum. The meals could be available to sleeper passengers and included in the ticket price, or not included at all. If not included in the ticket price, then any passenger (sleeper or coach) could order their meal(s) in advance, at their option. When stocking the diner for a trip, the meals would be loaded, refrigerated, and identified by the passenger and/or room number, but already paid for. Amtrak could keep extra meals on hand at all times in case a passenger changed his/her mind during travel or if the train was running late. However, when the extra meals for that trip are all gone, they're all gone.
> 
> The food has to be of a higher quality or this doesn't work. No one will want to pay in advance for a meal that quality-wise, is no better than the current offering.
> 
> If implemented as stated above, everybody wins. The passenger has the option to buy a meal or not, gets more selections, and tastier food. Amtrak gets the benefit of satisfied customers, meals prepaid, less waste and inventory, which equates to lower cost. The online menu could be ever-changing since the meals are prepared and paid for in advance. This would alleviate the issue of having to eat the same meals over a period of days if on a long LD trip. It should also reduce the cost of a sleeper ticket if not included in the ticket price.
> 
> If a passenger paid for a meal in advance and did not travel, provided the trip was canceled within a prescribed time, the price paid for the meal could be refunded along with the ticket price.
> 
> Obviously, there would be some bugs to work out. Experience and time should supply remedies.
> 
> Just a thought.


Looks like an administrative and logistics challenge to implement this... what if trains misconnect / what if passenger changes their mind / how is al this food sourced... and what extra paperwork and record keeping for the attendants???


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## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Looks like an administrative and logistics challenge to implement this... what if trains misconnect / what if passenger changes their mind / how is al this food sourced... and what extra paperwork and record keeping for the attendants???



It doesn’t solve any issues. If Amtrak wants to serve better food, they just have to order better quality food. That’s literally all it takes.


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## tgstubbs1

me_little_me said:


> So could you explain why the meals should be microwaveable instead of heated in a convection oven?


Isn't a convection oven basically the same thing as a hot air fryer?


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## me_little_me

tgstubbs1 said:


> Isn't a convection oven basically the same thing as a hot air fryer?


No, it is a hot air baker. It's like using the bake feature on your oven with a fan moving the air around so food bakes much faster but it bakes. Unlike a microwave which turns bread, cakes, dumplings and similar products to mush, baking can crisp them up.
And unlike a microwave where cooking twice as much takes twice the time, with convection ovens, it takes the same amount of time (but uses more energy).

What’s a Convection Oven, and When Should You Use It?


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## flitcraft

It has occurred to me that Amtrak is missing an easy way to mitigate the disaster of flex dining and build future loyalty at the same time: simply give a voucher to LD passengers in the sleepers for use on a future train in recognition that the food being served simply isn't the equivalent of what sleeper passengers are paying for. This way, they acknowledge that the current food isn't up to snuff, that they know this and want to make amends, and encourage post-flex-dining travel. Unless, of course, they aren't planning to fix the dining situation.


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## 20th Century Rider

Simply no match!

If my memory serves me right… Amtrak flex meals give testimonial to quality in reverse and progress in reverse… Back in the 1950's this tv dinner had really tender chicken with a tasty crispy fried crust. The veggies were steeped in savory butter sauce… and the potatoes, although obviously made from powdered mix… were creamy and rich. What a treat... I still remember and am smacking my lips even now... decades later!

Now how can one even compare what was then… with what is now??? And how can Amtrak flex meals be justified?


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## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Simply no match!
> 
> If my memory serves me right… Amtrak flex meals give testimonial to quality in reverse and progress in reverse… Back in the 1950's this tv dinner had really tender chicken with a tasty crispy fried crust. The veggies were steeped in savory butter sauce… and the potatoes, although obviously made from powdered mix… were creamy and rich. What a treat... I still remember and am smacking my lips even now... decades later!
> 
> Now how can one even compare what was then… with what is now??? And how can Amtrak flex meals be justified?
> 
> View attachment 20228



I’m fairly certain Amtrak Flex meals and Domestic First Class meals are prepared the same way... my meals on American and Delta have been much better than Amtrak Flex, and presented properly as well with “real” plates, flatware, glasses, and cloth napkins.


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## MARC Rider

I'm a little annoyed with the constant "Sleepers costs $1000s of dollars, we deserve gourmet food!" First of all, most sleeper fares aren't usually "$1,000s of dollars." In any event, the cost saving from the flex meals isn't the food (food is cheap, too cheap, in this country, that's why obesity is such a major health problem.) The cost savings comes from eliminating the labor costs in food preparation and the labor costs in the table service. That's why I think that Amtrak management can provide better quality flex meals, but I understand, especially during the pandemic, why table service needs to be suspended. If you think Amtrak sleeper fares are expensive, I would suggest looking at the prices for the private-car excursions or rail cruises that tout fresh-cooked gourmet food. Those will cost much, much more than an equivalent Amtrak trip. (I checked out the Rocky Mountaineer -- a 2 night jaunt from Vancouver to Banff is priced at $1,700 pp Silver Leaf, $2,400 -- Gold Leaf. And that only includes 2 breakfasts and 2 lunches. You're on your own for dinner. It does include the hotel rooms in Kaloomps and Banff, though.

By the way, my flight from Dulles to Beijing cost in excess of $2,000, and you wouldn't believe the lousy food we had. I could have upgraded to business class for another $1,500 each way, and then I might have gotten somewhat better food, plus a lie-flat seat. (Yeah, I know you can find cheaper IAD-PEK coach fares, but our bosses really do want us to be able to cancel trips without penalty, check bags for free, etc.)


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> If you think Amtrak sleeper fares are expensive, I would suggest looking at the prices for the private-car excursions or rail cruises that tout fresh-cooked gourmet food. Those will cost much, much more than an equivalent Amtrak trip.



I’ve ridden them. The cost is usually not very different than a Bedroom. Obviously it varies from trip to trip, but the ones I choose aren’t. 

Nobody is asking for gourmet food, Amtrak never had gourmet food and neither does VIA. Actually I don’t think I’ve ever had truly gourmet food on a train.


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## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> I'm a little annoyed with the constant "Sleepers costs $1000s of dollars, we deserve gourmet food!" First of all, most sleeper fares aren't usually "$1,000s of dollars." In any event, the cost saving from the flex meals isn't the food (food is cheap, too cheap, in this country, that's why obesity is such a major health problem.) The cost savings comes from eliminating the labor costs in food preparation and the labor costs in the table service. That's why I think that Amtrak management can provide better quality flex meals, but I understand, especially during the pandemic, why table service needs to be suspended. If you think Amtrak sleeper fares are expensive, I would suggest looking at the prices for the private-car excursions or rail cruises that tout fresh-cooked gourmet food. Those will cost much, much more than an equivalent Amtrak trip. (I checked out the Rocky Mountaineer -- a 2 night jaunt from Vancouver to Banff is priced at $1,700 pp Silver Leaf, $2,400 -- Gold Leaf. And that only includes 2 breakfasts and 2 lunches. You're on your own for dinner. It does include the hotel rooms in Kaloomps and Banff, though.
> 
> By the way, my flight from Dulles to Beijing cost in excess of $2,000, and you wouldn't believe the lousy food we had. I could have upgraded to business class for another $1,500 each way, and then I might have gotten somewhat better food, plus a lie-flat seat. (Yeah, I know you can find cheaper IAD-PEK coach fares, but our bosses really do want us to be able to cancel trips without penalty, check bags for free, etc.)


Sleepers cost about $2000 round trip from the West Coast to the East Coast. The pre pandemic food was substantial but certainly not gourmet. But it was acceptable and has not been getting criticized. Your annoyance about food being cheap and the cause of obesity in America is simply irrelevant to the discussion on Amtrak catering. Many on the forum are questioning Amtrak management capabilities; responsible utilization of Amtrak funding, justifiable value for sleeper tickets, and the unhealthy and poor product quality of the flex concept.


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## caravanman

This youtube video shows what the current meals look like. I have to say they look very unappealing! 
The young lady makes a few errors about Amtrak in her commentary, but at least folk can see what the food looks like...


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## 20th Century Rider

caravanman said:


> This youtube video shows what the current meals look like. I have to say they look very unappealing!
> The young lady makes a few errors about Amtrak in her commentary, but at least folk can see what the food looks like...



I've seen this video before and it speaks volumes about the lackluster and depressing food service on Amtrak.


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## fdaley

MARC Rider said:


> I'm a little annoyed with the constant "Sleepers costs $1000s of dollars, we deserve gourmet food!" First of all, most sleeper fares aren't usually "$1,000s of dollars."



A bedroom for two from Albany to Chicago on the Lake Shore, which used to be the first leg of any trip west for my wife and me, starts at $793. And when I checked just now, a bedroom for one person next weekend from New York to Birmingham on the Crescent was priced at $1,134. So the price of long-distance sleeper travel can get past the $1,000 mark pretty quickly. 

What upsets a lot of us is that these same basic prices for years included full-service, restaurant-style meals in the dining car. Now that service has been hugely downgraded, but the price of a sleeper room is still the same.


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## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Sleepers cost about $2000 round trip from the West Coast to the East Coast.


And a 2-day trip on the Rocky Mountaineer between Vancouver and Banff is priced during April at $1,700 - $2,400, and you have to pay for dinner in Kaloomps and Banff.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> A bedroom for two from Albany to Chicago on the Lake Shore, which used to be the first leg of any trip west for my wife and me, starts at $793. And when I checked just now, a bedroom for one person next weekend from New York to Birmingham on the Crescent was priced at $1,134. So the price of long-distance sleeper travel can get past the $1,000 mark pretty quickly.
> 
> What upsets a lot of us is that these same basic prices for years included full-service, restaurant-style meals in the dining car. Now that service has been hugely downgraded, but the price of a sleeper room is still the same.



Agreed! And I always pay more than $2000 to go coast to coast. But what is more than what you said... the price has actually gone up while the food service, and the attitude of employees [although they and we are all facing tough times,] has gone down down down; bringing down the overall quality of the experience. There has been little acknowledgement from Amtrak admin that customers are getting way less in terms of services and value... for the 'way more' which they must pay.

I do love trains... but I'll be back when they show that they value my patronage and want my business. I mean... as a retired school teacher on a teacher's pension... I sure worked hard for every nickIe and dime in my pension and I can't be squandering my money on the lack of real appreciation for my business.


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## MARC Rider

fdaley said:


> And when I checked just now, a bedroom for one person next weekend from New York to Birmingham on the Crescent was priced at $1,134. So the price of long-distance sleeper travel can get past the $1,000 mark pretty quickly.


Well, sure, if you're booking so close to departure, and the supply is diminished because the trains are only running 3 days a week.
I just checked NYP - BHM for April 20, roomettes at $426 and bedrooms at $627.


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## Sidney

$1134 from New York to Birmingham? For that price I would expect first class gourmet meals. Low bucket is quite a bit less. Amtrak will charge what people are willing to pay. I couldn't imagine anybody paying that outrageous price,but obviously some people will.


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## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> And a 2-day trip on the Rocky Mountaineer between Vancouver and Banff is priced during April at $1,700 - $2,400, and you have to pay for dinner in Kaloomps and Banff.


The Rocky Mountaineer is a private tourist train while Amtrak is a public transportation service supported by the government and taxpayer dollars.


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> $1134 from New York to Birmingham? For that price I would expect first class gourmet meals. Low bucket is quite a bit less. Amtrak will charge what people are willing to pay. I couldn't imagine anybody paying that outrageous price,but obviously some people will.


You are exactly right... Amtrak prices aren't cheep and they are actually all over the places with pricing. You and me and all Amtrak travelers should expect and are entitled to way more than what we are getting.


----------



## MARC Rider

MARC Rider said:


> Well, sure, if you're booking so close to departure, and the supply is diminished because the trains are only running 3 days a week.
> I just checked NYP - BHM for April 20, roomettes at $426 and bedrooms at $627.


Lake Shore Limited, NYP - CHI April 21, Roomette, $394, Bedroom $733. Coach $90. Bedroom and Roomette include the same food service, but somehow the bedroom is worth a surcharge of $339. The difference between coach and roomette is $304. Obviously, you're paying the extra $300 for something other than food service. And they seem to be filling the sleepers, even with the lousy food. Obviously, the value proposition for a sleeper over coach is the privacy and lie-flat bed; the value proposition for a bedroom over a roomette is the increased space and en-suite bathroom facilities. Personally, unless the bedroom price is close to that of the roomette, I'll take the roomette.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

caravanman said:


> This youtube video shows what the current meals look like. I have to say they look very unappealing!
> The young lady makes a few errors about Amtrak in her commentary, but at least folk can see what the food looks like...




Fred Harvey must be spinning 'round and 'round at Warp speed and this video only confirms I have made the right decision by starting to dump my AGR Points into gift cards and hotel rooms and using Enterprise as my preferred carrier now.


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## Qapla

I weigh more than I should ... I am sure I could stand to lose 75-100 pounds - that said, just because I can find someone who weighs more than me does not make me skinny - it just makes that person more overweight than I am.

Telling me that a private excursion train costs more than an Amtrak sleeper does not make the sleeper "cheap" or even "affordable" - it jus makes that excursion train more overly priced than Amtrak is.

Most city buss systems that I know of around here do not make money. They have low fares so that all people can ride them. The operating expenses are offset by taxes. *Wouldn't it be nice if Amtrak was supported by taxes* to help offset the operating costs so the prices could be affordable to more people who cannot afford the current sleeper prices ...


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## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> The Rocky Mountaineer is a private tourist train while Amtrak is a public transportation service supported by the government and taxpayer dollars.


That's really irrelevant if one is comparing the value proposition of the two travel experiences. The point is that you could spend $1,000 and travel on Amtrak for 4 days between New York and the west coast riding in a sleeper and eating lousy food or spend $1,700 -$2,400 (plus paying extra for dinner in Kaloomps and Banff) and travel on the Rocky Mountaineer for two days between Vancouver and Banff and eat a decent breakfast and lunch. Obviously, which you would choose depends on a lot more than the quality of the food service on board.

Amtrak could meet it's "public transportation" service mission by running all-coach trains. In fact, most customers of the long-distance trains travel by coach, and they don't travel real long distances, either. The sleeper service is mainly a way to capture some extra revenue to cross-subsidize the operation of the train. If they can optimize this extra revenue by serving lousy food, why shouldn't they? As a taxpayer-funded government-owned entity, Amtrak certainly has no reason to use public funds to subsidize food service for people who are most likely not using it for essential transportation.


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## crescent-zephyr

@MARC Rider - on paper I agree with you quite a bit. I would rather see more trains and less sleeping cars and dining cars if we had to choose one or the other. 

But we aren’t starting from a clean slate, and taking away from the LD trains is just taking away from them at this point. You’re not going to tell me that all the trains would have stopped running if they were still serving the old menu. 

With the lack of coach revenue and the increase in per meal hard costs and waste I wonder if they are actually saving any money anyways.


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## fdaley

MARC Rider said:


> The sleeper service is mainly a way to capture some extra revenue to cross-subsidize the operation of the train. If they can optimize this extra revenue by serving lousy food, why shouldn't they?



Is Amtrak optimizing revenue, or is it just driving away customers? In most businesses, the thing you really don't want to do is alienate your most loyal, high-revenue clients. Yet that's exactly what Amtrak's management has succeeded in doing with this change. Thanks to Covid we won't ever see meaningful year-to-year comparisons in most cases, but in the final months before the pandemic, there were at least anecdotal reports that both sleeper and coach traffic was down on the eastern trains that had switched to flex dining. For the Lake Shore and Capitol, which made the change sooner, ridership dropped 8 to 10 percent from the first full year before the change to the first full year afterward.

In my own case, we went across country and back 10 times from 2002 through 2019 -- two adults and a child/teenager, with at least one of the grandparents joining on some of these treks. We probably spent an average of $3K to $4K per trip, with the lower end of that range achieved only by cashing in AGR points for at least one portion of the itinerary. And throughout that period we also took numerous shorter overnight trips from the Northeast to the South, Midwest and Southwest. Now, even after the pandemic ends, if flex dining remains unchanged, the amount we expect to spend on Amtrak LD travel going forward is zero.

Judging from other comments here, including from 20th Century Rider and Railspike, who started this thread, it appears there are a fair number of other longtime train travelers who plan to stay away unless the flex-food situation improves rather dramatically. Perhaps there are lots of millennials and others who've never taken a train before who'll step in to replace us and who'll feel that a $700-a-night bedroom is still a great value with the current quality of food, but I rather doubt it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> That's really irrelevant if one is comparing the value proposition of the two travel experiences. The point is that you could spend $1,000 and travel on Amtrak for 4 days between New York and the west coast riding in a sleeper and eating lousy food or spend $1,700 -$2,400 (plus paying extra for dinner in Kaloomps and Banff) and travel on the Rocky Mountaineer for two days between Vancouver and Banff and eat a decent breakfast and lunch. Obviously, which you would choose depends on a lot more than the quality of the food service on board.
> 
> Amtrak could meet it's "public transportation" service mission by running all-coach trains. In fact, most customers of the long-distance trains travel by coach, and they don't travel real long distances, either. The sleeper service is mainly a way to capture some extra revenue to cross-subsidize the operation of the train. If they can optimize this extra revenue by serving lousy food, why shouldn't they? As a taxpayer-funded government-owned entity, Amtrak certainly has no reason to use public funds to subsidize food service for people who are most likely not using it for essential transportation.



Is your statement regarding Amtrak's mission your opinion or is it fact? Sleeper service is intended to provide more comfort and to include reasonably qualitative meals for those who are willing to pay more. When you say "most customers of the long-distance trains travel by coach, and they don't travel real long distances, either." can you provide documentation and the statistics? You may be interested in reading the recent article written below by Tony Coscia, Chairman, Amtrak Board of Directors November 23, 2020:









Defining Amtrak’s True Mission - Railway Age


It has been an honor to serve on the Amtrak Board for the past decade. I am extremely proud of the hardworking employees at Amtrak who keep America moving. Our current circumstances remind us of just how fortunate we are to have their commitment and dedication. It is because of their efforts...




www.railwayage.com


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> Is Amtrak optimizing revenue, or is it just driving away customers? In most businesses, the thing you really don't want to do is alienate your most loyal, high-revenue clients. Yet that's exactly what Amtrak's management has succeeded in doing with this change. Thanks to Covid we won't ever see meaningful year-to-year comparisons in most cases, but in the final months before the pandemic, there were at least anecdotal reports that both sleeper and coach traffic was down on the eastern trains that had switched to flex dining. For the Lake Shore and Capitol, which made the change sooner, ridership dropped 8 to 10 percent from the first full year before the change to the first full year afterward.
> 
> In my own case, we went across country and back 10 times from 2002 through 2019 -- two adults and a child/teenager, with at least one of the grandparents joining on some of these treks. We probably spent an average of $3K to $4K per trip, with the lower end of that range achieved only by cashing in AGR points for at least one portion of the itinerary. And throughout that period we also took numerous shorter overnight trips from the Northeast to the South, Midwest and Southwest. Now, even after the pandemic ends, if flex dining remains unchanged, the amount we expect to spend on Amtrak LD travel going forward is zero.
> 
> Judging from other comments here, including from 20th Century Rider and Railspike, who started this thread, it appears there are a fair number of other longtime train travelers who plan to stay away unless the flex-food situation improves rather dramatically. Perhaps there are lots of millennials and others who've never taken a train before who'll step in to replace us and who'll feel that a $700-a-night bedroom is still a great value with the current quality of food, but I rather doubt it.



Well said!


----------



## IndyLions

Interesting discussion I missed while zoning out in front of 6 NFL games over the weekend.

Here’s my two cents:

Getting rid of Mica was the first hurdle. That’s done - and that is the good news.
However, without a complete change in the way Amtrak is funded, food service is always going to be on the chopping block, depending on the whims of Congress and who is in control. If you think the Democrats are going to be in control for 20 years, guess again. Even after Nixon, they only got four years. So unless something drastic happens – we’ve been waiting 50 years - the best we can hope for is temporary improvement. That has happened many times before over the decades, only to go downhill again with the next Congress.
For those of you who are wanting to divorce food from the sleeper cost, I don’t have a real problem with that. However, the reason it’s there in the first place is because of accounting designed to make the food service ledger look as good as possible. It’s a vicious circle that won’t be solved until the funding is solved. We are on year 50 with no solution in sight.
For those who are advocating for cheap sleeper fares, you are in dreamland. Even going back to the old days when sleepers were plentiful, they were never affordable for the masses (the only possible exception to that might be slumber coach). If you take food away from the sleeper fare, I predict that the sleeper fare will not go down one dollar. That has held through the pandemic. There are enough people with enough income who wish to travel by train, that allows the sleepers to be filled without any problem at the current cost. For those of us without unlimited income, it means planning in advance and getting the best fares we can find. But affordable sleepers for all will never happen.
For those who say that Amtrak needs to bring back line managers, I agree wholeheartedly. As long as it’s treated as one big faceless nameless system, it’s going to resemble more of a Third World service instead of a first world service. And frankly, most Third World countries have a better system than we do.
If we can somehow get competent people installed at Amtrak, a lot of things are going to improve - including food. We’re about to have the most pro-rail president and transportation secretary ever, as far as I can tell. Maybe that means real change is around the corner - or at least temporary improvement.

Let’s insist on competent food service, which we are not currently getting. However, we need to be careful not to fall on our sword because of food service. There’s a reason the Mica rule got implemented in the first place. It’s a controversial topic that will draw opposition from conservatives - and despite our fervent wishes they aren’t going away any time soon.


----------



## jiml

flitcraft said:


> Unless, of course, they aren't planning to fix the dining situation.


And there is the million-dollar question.


----------



## tgstubbs1

I saw this article on the web about airlines and their own food problems.

"
Japan Airlines is the latest aviation company to join the fight in reducing food wastage - which contributes to more than six million tons of cabin waste globally.

The airline is now asking travelers to make an "ethical choice" by skipping meals on board their flights in a bid to deal with the problem.

Since the airline prepares a meal for every person on board, a passenger who would rather sleep through meal service, or prefers to bring their own in-flight snacks, results in an enormous amount of wasted food."

"In some markets, strict health regulations prohibit food from being repurposed.

In Australia, New Zealand and the United States, airlines must bury or incinerate all cabin waste - regardless if it has been untouched.

An opened bag of peanuts or can of soda will be disposed of to minimize the risk of transmission of animal diseases."









Airlines begin war on in-flight meal waste


From artificial intelligence to decipher the ingredients most wasted to inviting passengers to ‘ethically’ skip inflight meals, airlines are ramping up their war on waste.




www.inkstonenews.com


----------



## jiml

IndyLions said:


> Interesting discussion I missed while zoning out in front of 6 NFL games over the weekend.
> 
> Here’s my two cents:
> 
> Getting rid of Mica was the first hurdle. That’s done - and that is the good news.
> However, without a complete change in the way Amtrak is funded, food service is always going to be on the chopping block, depending on the whims of Congress and who is in control. If you think the Democrats are going to be in control for 20 years, guess again. Even after Nixon, they only got four years. So unless something drastic happens – we’ve been waiting 50 years - the best we can hope for is temporary improvement. That has happened many times before over the decades, only to go downhill again with the next Congress.
> For those of you who are wanting to divorce food from the sleeper cost, I don’t have a real problem with that. However, the reason it’s there in the first place is because of accounting designed to make the food service ledger look as good as possible. It’s a vicious circle that won’t be solved until the funding is solved. We are on year 50 with no solution in sight.
> For those who are advocating for cheap sleeper fares, you are in dreamland. Even going back to the old days when sleepers were plentiful, they were never affordable for the masses (the only possible exception to that might be slumber coach). If you take food away from the sleeper fare, I predict that the sleeper fare will not go down one dollar. That has held through the pandemic. There are enough people with enough income who wish to travel by train, that allows the sleepers to be filled without any problem at the current cost. For those of us without unlimited income, it means planning in advance and getting the best fares we can find. But affordable sleepers for all will never happen.
> For those who say that Amtrak needs to bring back line managers, I agree wholeheartedly. As long as it’s treated as one big faceless nameless system, it’s going to resemble more of a Third World service instead of a first world service. And frankly, most Third World countries have a better system than we do.
> If we can somehow get competent people installed at Amtrak, a lot of things are going to improve - including food. We’re about to have the most pro-rail president and transportation secretary ever, as far as I can tell. Maybe that means real change is around the corner - or at least temporary improvement.
> 
> Let’s insist on competent food service, which we are not currently getting. However, we need to be careful not to fall on our sword because of food service. There’s a reason the Mica rule got implemented in the first place. It’s a controversial topic that will draw opposition from conservatives - and despite our fervent wishes they aren’t going away any time soon.


You've made several good points. I'd like to touch on one in particular:


IndyLions said:


> For those of you who are wanting to divorce food from the sleeper cost, I don’t have a real problem with that. However, the reason it’s there in the first place is because of accounting designed to make the food service ledger look as good as possible. It’s a vicious circle that won’t be solved until the funding is solved. We are on year 50 with no solution in sight.



The other element of the "vicious circle" once food is "divorced" from fares, is how many $39 surf 'n' turf or $25 steak dinners will be sold a la carte to sleeper passengers. Too expensive leads to lower sales leads to less inventory leads to smaller selection, then repeat. To look at it another way, even if they start selling the current meals and they prove "unpopular", it leads to a similar spiral. This can all be summarized in your "no solution in sight" comment. It's not as simple as it sounds.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jiml said:


> You've made several good points. I'd like to touch on one in particular:
> 
> 
> The other element of the "vicious circle" once food is "divorced" from fares, is how many $39 surf 'n' turf or $25 steak dinners will be sold a la carte to sleeper passengers. Too expensive leads to lower sales leads to less inventory leads to smaller selection, then repeat. To look at it another way, even if they start selling the current meals and they prove "unpopular", it leads to a similar spiral. This can all be summarized in your "no solution in sight" comment. It's not as simple as it sounds.



Definitely a spiral... but long distance travel has historically and traditionally linked with some kind of food service... for as long back as the history of railroading in America... uh er perhaps after the Fred Harvey's era. 

But I am enticed with the custom in the Orient where there are bento box shops everywhere and travelers can pick and choose their meals before boarding. The same can be done in America at some stations that have restaurants with ready to go meals. 

Enjoy from our recent Amtrak past... Eating well on Amtrak has been a long standing tradition which unfortunately has been 'sidetracked.' Lets hope - just temporarily!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> I'm a little annoyed with the constant "Sleepers costs $1000s of dollars, we deserve gourmet food!"


I'm a little annoyed that wanting anything better than Stouffer's is now equated with demanding "gourmet" food.



IndyLions said:


> If you think the ❄ are going to be in control for 20 years, guess again. Even after ❄ they only got four years. So unless something drastic happens – we’ve been waiting 50 years - the best we can hope for is temporary improvement.


The _best_ we can hope for is that _all_ voters push for strong support of passenger rail so progress made by any one group isn't immediately undone by another.



IndyLions said:


> For those who are advocating for cheap sleeper fares, you are in dreamland.


I'm advocating for sleeper fares in line with reasonable alternatives like First Class domestic airfare or a road trip with luxury hotel stays.


----------



## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm advocating for sleeper fares in line with reasonable alternatives like First Class domestic airfare or a road trip with luxury hotel stays.


This.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm a little annoyed that wanting anything better than Stouffer's is now equated with demanding "gourmet" food.
> 
> 
> The best we can hope for is that _all_ voters push their party to show strong support for passenger rail so progress made by one group isn't immediately undone by another.
> 
> 
> I'm advocating for sleeper fares in line with reasonable alternatives like First Class domestic airfare or a road trip with luxury hotel stays.


Well said... you speak for me too!


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm a little annoyed that wanting anything better than Stouffer's is now equated with demanding "gourmet" food.



I’m with you 100% as well. Well said.


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm advocating for sleeper fares in line with reasonable alternatives like First Class domestic airfare or a road trip with luxury hotel stays.


 
That is where prices will be unless supply constrains demand so much so - that they end up charging more. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IndyLions said:


> I’m with you 100% as well. Well said.



I'm optimistic about the future of Amtrak an will watch with joy as Amtrak Joe makes his way to inauguration aboard an Amtrak train! Cheers!


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> The _best_ we can hope for is that _all_ voters push for strong support of passenger rail so progress made by any one group isn't immediately undone by another.



I agree this is highly desired. But to achieve this will require compromise. What are you willing to compromise to ensure better infrastructure including a secure future for passenger rail? Remember, many are lukewarm or even downright hostile towards rail expansion. If it ain’t a road - they don’t want it. Not in their backyard!

And whatever is compromised, it has to be something not valued by the typical conservative. I’m not picking on conservatives - they are just the most typical anti-rail group of any size.

For example - as a rule of thumb - conservatives don’t value social programs. Is there a social program you are willing to sacrifice in the name of better infrastructure / rail services in this country?


----------



## CTANut

This petition is telling Amtrak that we want dining cars back!








Sign the Petition


Tell Amtrak and Congress We Want Dining Car Service To Remain On All Long Distance Trains.




www.change.org


----------



## 20th Century Rider

CTANut said:


> This petition is telling Amtrak that we want dining cars back!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Tell Amtrak and Congress We Want Dining Car Service To Remain On All Long Distance Trains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org



Enough is enough with this artificial Amtrak 'flex meals' food product concept!

Flex meals are so poorly assembled, prepared, and presented as to be inedible and dangerous for health when consumed in the amount necessitated for LD long distance trips across the country. The contents are mostly of chemical composition and dangerous for consumption in amounts taken meal after meal and day after day on LD trains. This is an assault on passengers who place Amtrak in a position of trust. It is truly a wrong and abusive of the government that controls Amtrak.

Flex meals are wrong, abusive, and harmful to health when consumed days on end on long term trips that Amtrak charges sleeping car passenger so much for. So, Amtrak admin... let's see how you defend this!

If there's any Amtrak traveler that likes these artificial flex meals that don't even compete with TV Dinners purchased for $.39 cents years ago... let us know what you think.

And oh please! Don't get this wrong... additional cuts are being made in quantity and quality as you read this. When does Amtrak actually reach the 'bare bones' of food service... we are already at the point of choking on the 'wine braised beef with polenta and garden fresh vegetables with the beef being nothing more than pieces of fat floating in watery sauce with the small scoop of polenta dissolving into it.

Wait... how much did you say you paid for your sleeper ticket? Oh well... but it includes meals! Lol!









People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change


Customer comments obtained by Business Insider reveal just how badly riders miss the custom cooked, china-laden dinners of yesteryear.




markets.businessinsider.com


----------



## fdaley

20th Century Rider said:


> Enough is enough with this artificial Amtrak 'flex meals' food product concept!
> 
> Flex meals are so poorly assembled, prepared, and presented as to be inedible and dangerous for health when consumed in the amount necessitated for LD long distance trips across the country. The contents are mostly of chemical composition and dangerous for consumption in amounts taken meal after meal and day after day on LD trains. This is an assault on passengers who place Amtrak in a position of trust. It is truly a wrong and abusive of the government that controls Amtrak.
> 
> Flex meals are wrong, abusive, and harmful to health when consumed days on end on long term trips that Amtrak charges sleeping car passenger so much for. So, Amtrak admin... let's see how you defend this!
> 
> If there's any Amtrak traveler that likes these artificial flex meals that don't even compete with TV Dinners purchased for $.39 cents years ago... let us know what you think.
> 
> And oh please! Don't get this wrong... additional cuts are being made in quantity and quality as you read this. When does Amtrak actually reach the 'bare bones' of food service... we are already at the point of choking on the 'wine braised beef with polenta and garden fresh vegetables with the beef being nothing more than pieces of fat floating in watery sauce with the small scoop of polenta dissolving into it.
> 
> Wait... how much did you say you paid for your sleeper ticket? Oh well... but it includes meals! Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change
> 
> 
> Customer comments obtained by Business Insider reveal just how badly riders miss the custom cooked, china-laden dinners of yesteryear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> markets.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20252
> 
> View attachment 20253



That picture of the beef and polenta really does say more than words can express. And the breakfast -- really, I could do better at the local Citgo station.


----------



## Sidney

Flexible dining has been in effect since June 2018 on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited and October 2019 on all the other Eastern trains and March of last year on all the Western trains and there has been no improvement. I think one or two items have been added,but it's the same kind of stuff. I have asked this before,but isn't Amtrak aware of the almost universal negative reaction to their offerings?

Again,soup,sandwiches or food picked up at long stops for sleeper passengers...and how about something besides a brownie for dessert! Isn't there any refrigeration for cheesecake?

My circle trip begins Friday. After over 30 years of doing these I still get excited. I always looked forward to the meals and amenities like wine tasting,trivia and on the Starlight,the Pacific Parlour Car. I still love being in a sleeper and getting immersed in the scenery. Unfortunately, I can't look forward to the food. You have to eat,but now it's a necessity and not an integral part of the rail experience.

.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

fdaley said:


> Is Amtrak optimizing revenue, or is it just driving away customers? In most businesses, the thing you really don't want to do is alienate your most loyal, high-revenue clients. Yet that's exactly what Amtrak's management has succeeded in doing with this change.



Even before COVID-19, the cruise industry started to degrade its food too. I use to enjoy the high-end, fancy, meals served every evening in their main dining rooms. Then they replaced that cuisine with "comfort food" like fried chicken. Not that I hate fried chicken, but one of the reasons I went on a cruise, was the dining experience. 

And yea, I stopped cruising (again this predated COVID-19).


----------



## railiner

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Even before COVID-19, the cruise industry started to degrade its food too. I use to enjoy the high-end, fancy, meals served every evening in their main dining rooms. Then they replaced that cuisine with "comfort food" like fried chicken. Not that I hate fried chicken, but one of the reasons I went on a cruise, was the dining experience.
> 
> And yea, I stopped cruising (again this predated COVID-19).


The mainstream cruise lines did downgrade their complimentary main dining room and buffet food somewhat, to lower fares to be competitive in a fiercely competitive industry...but they still offer upscale foods in their 'specialty restaurants', for an additional cost. But even the cheapest cruise ship buffet offer's better food than Amtrak could ever....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> For example - as a rule of thumb - conservatives don’t value social programs. Is there a social program you are willing to sacrifice in the name of better infrastructure / rail services in this country?


Barring more disasters Amtrak does not necessarily need _more_ money to maintain and renew current services but it _does_ need predictable budgets that are solidified for years at time and can be borrowed against as needed. Some HSR projects can also be built without direct public funding but will need important regulatory approvals, protection against nuisance lawsuits, and a bit of coercive repurposing here and there. The primary taxpayer liability would come in the form of loan guarantees that would come into effect if prior approvals were later reversed or rescinded.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

railiner said:


> The mainstream cruise lines did downgrade their complimentary main dining room and buffet food somewhat, to lower fares to be competitive in a fiercely competitive industry...but they still offer upscale foods in their 'specialty restaurants', for an additional cost. But even the cheapest cruise ship buffet offer's better food than Amtrak could ever....


But as repulsive as the AmChow may be, you're probably less likely to get sick off of it vs. cruise chow.


----------



## tgstubbs1

OlympianHiawatha said:


> But as repulsive as the AmChow may be, you're probably less likely to get sick off of it vs. cruise chow.



Hmmm. Not a pleasant thought. I guess other than some opportunities visiting port restaurants cruisers are completely stuck eating ship food. 

Amtrak LD trains give people a chance to get off the train to forage several times a day. Hopefully they can add some variety to the flex meals. The flex meals will probably be around for a while.


----------



## railiner

OlympianHiawatha said:


> But as repulsive as the AmChow may be, you're probably less likely to get sick off of it vs. cruise chow.


If you are referring to catching the dreaded norovirus, you are correct...but that is not because of food quality, but rather, passenger sanitation habits, brought on by passenger's. They have made great strides in controlling that issue, with hand-washing and/or sanitizer stations near every dining facility, various 'code' condition's which eliminate or limit passenger self service food station's in the buffet's, and other improvements...


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

railiner said:


> The mainstream cruise lines did downgrade their complimentary main dining room and buffet food somewhat, to lower fares to be competitive in a fiercely competitive industry...but they still offer upscale foods in their 'specialty restaurants', for an additional cost. But even the cheapest cruise ship buffet offer's better food than Amtrak could ever....



You do bring up an interesting thought.

I wonder how many Sleeper passengers will be willing to pay extra to eat in an Amtrak 'specialty restaurant' (aka the dining car) for an additional cost? Say, $50/meal ? Sleeper passengers will still be able to get their complimentary flex meal (aka K-ration  ).


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

railiner said:


> If you are referring to catching the dreaded norovirus, you are correct...but that is not because of food quality, but rather, passenger sanitation habits, brought on by passenger's. They have made great strides in controlling that issue, with hand-washing and/or sanitizer stations near every dining facility, various 'code' condition's which eliminate or limit passenger self service food station's in the buffet's, and other improvements...



Well, yes and no. I was on a cruise ship that had a rather major breakout of norovirus. About 1/2 the passengers became sick and had to be confined to their cabins.

While it might have started by a passenger, it was the total lack of consequential/subsequent control by the ship's crew and officers, which allowed it to be go totally out of control. No training. No action. Officers who just hoped it would go away; which it didn't.


----------



## railiner

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> You do bring up an interesting thought.
> 
> I wonder how many Sleeper passengers will be willing to pay extra to eat in an Amtrak 'specialty restaurant' (aka the dining car) for an additional cost? Say, $50/meal ? Sleeper passengers will still be able to get their complimentary flex meal.


A good question, indeed...
I think that it would be a hard sell to 'regular traveler's', but may be popular for tourists...
Perhaps instead of limiting the dining car to only those willing to pay that rather steep rate for a meal, as a "specialty restaurant", they might first try just adding some ala carte high quality items to the regular diner choices, and see how well they sell...


----------



## joelkfla

fdaley said:


> And the breakfast -- really, I could do better at the local Citgo station.


But the boxes look nice. 


tgstubbs1 said:


> Amtrak LD trains give people a chance to get off the train to forage several times a day.


Mmmm! Wild hickory nuts.


Cho Cho Charlie said:


> No training. No action. Officers who just hoped it would go away; which it didn't.


Sounds like Washington.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

railiner said:


> If you are referring to catching the dreaded norovirus, you are correct...but that is not because of food quality, but rather, passenger sanitation habits, brought on by passenger's. They have made great strides in controlling that issue, with hand-washing and/or sanitizer stations near every dining facility, various 'code' condition's which eliminate or limit passenger self service food station's in the buffet's, and other improvements...


And probably those ship buffets where everyone touches the handles of those self serve utensils... therefore coming in contact with the hand germs of everyone at that buffet.

It's always nice to share... but not when it comes to germs!


----------



## tgstubbs1

joelkfla said:


> Mmmm! Wild hickory nuts.



Most nuts are a good source of magnesium.

I got used to 'foraging' on my LD trips.






Google Maps







www.google.com





I think I stopped in this place, near ABQ.


----------



## railiner

redacted format error


----------



## tgstubbs1

20th Century Rider said:


> And probably those ship buffets where everyone touches the handles of those self serve utensils... therefore coming in contact with the hand germs of everyone at that buffet.
> 
> It's always nice to share... but not when it comes to germs!


Maybe they're the sort that believes in "herd immunity"?

Not to be confused with "crowd mentality."


----------



## railiner

20th Century Rider said:


> And probably those ship buffets where everyone touches the handles of those self serve utensils... therefore coming in contact with the hand germs of everyone at that buffet.
> 
> It's always nice to share... but not when it comes to germs!


Because of this, I believe that the self-serve buffet's everywhere, land and sea, will be forever, "gone with the wind"...
You'll still have buffet's, but you'll place your plate in front of the server, and they will dish it out for you. This will of course mean greater staffing costs, but may also limit waste, as 'glutton's' may be too embarrassed to ask for a huge pile of food at each serving...
I wonder how the "Golden Corral" chain is faring, these days...?


----------



## tgstubbs1

railiner said:


> Because of this, I believe that the self-serve buffet's everywhere, land and sea, will be forever, "gone with the wind"...
> You'll still have buffet's, but you'll place your plate in front of the server, and they will dish it out for you. This will of course mean greater staffing costs, but may also limit waste, as 'glutton's' may be too embarrassed to ask for a huge pile of food at each serving...
> I wonder how the "Golden Corral" chain is faring, these days...?



The last time I et at a "Golden Coral" I didn't feel well, and it was several years before this coronavirus.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> The last time I et at a "Golden Coral" I didn't feel well, and it was several years before this coronavirus.



According to the Federal Drug Administration's COVID-19 best practice guideline, restaurants should discontinue operations that require customers to use common utensils or dispensers. This poses a problem for establishments that have relied on tongs and spoons multiple people touch over the course of an evening. Since buffets don't need to employ as many workers on the floor, these restaurants have long been economical operations.

Buffets always involved health risks due to common handling of utensils, exhaled germs reaching the food despite the safety glass, and food just sitting out at a non safe temperature for too long. Far too many contamination opportunities!

The future according to so many articles in todays food journals indicate food servers providing the food requested on plates then handed to the customer. This seems much safer! And for those who must pig out, they can go back for more I guess.

BTW, on a personal note, once I reached 50 and the metabolism started to slow down, I began to avoid buffets totally!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> Because of this, I believe that the self-serve buffet's everywhere, land and sea, will be forever, "gone with the wind"...
> You'll still have buffet's, but you'll place your plate in front of the server, and they will dish it out for you. This will of course mean greater staffing costs, but may also limit waste, as 'glutton's' may be too embarrassed to ask for a huge pile of food at each serving...


I find buffets unappealing, not just because of the shared utensils but also the stale low quality food. Even the fancier Vegas versions just did not do it for me. That said it's hard to imagine a brave new 'Murica without self-serve gorging. If the traditional buffet experience really does go away I'd be willing to pay a little more to see it out the door.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Can someone please explain the justification of 8 meals a day on these expensive cruise lines... from sunrise to sundown, and on to the midnight buffet???

I mean... where does one put it all when the human stomach is the size of a fist???


----------



## railiner

I used to enjoy buffet's, for both the 'cheaper than eating at home' price, as well as the incredible variety some of them offered...a good place to sample new foods, you wouldn't otherwise have ordered...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

When I was young and skinny I had a fabulous 'food time' on the Las Vegas strip... so many years ago when for $1.99 you could fill up on steaks and potatoes au gratin. And I never got sick!

Apparently it's taken a while for the germs to catch up on the feasting as well!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> When I was young and skinny I had a fabulous 'food time' on the Las Vegas strip... so many years ago when for $1.99 you could fill up on steaks and potatoes au gratin. And I never got sick!


By the time I was introduced to Vegas buffets it seemed they were all in the $50-$100 range. I never experienced the cheap loss leader spreads you see in some movies. What were they like?


----------



## BoulderCO

Yes, the elimination of buffets - or at least no more "serve yourself" makes a lot of sense. I understand the logic. However, I will dearly miss the daily lunch buffets at the local Indian restaurants - Lots of interesting and tasty food. A very fun way to overeat a large variety of dishes.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> By the time I was introduced to Vegas buffets it seemed they were all in the $50-$100 range. I never experienced the cheap loss leader spreads you see in some movies. What were they like?


Waaay back in the 60's food was cheap and a real bargain. Of course the purpose of those cheep buffets was to get you in the door and gamble big. I've never been into gambling... but I did take a shot at it... back then... I took $1.50 to the cashier and asked for pennies. The I went to the penny slot. In it went... one penny at a time. And that's all that happened... the machine just ate my pennies... one at a time. After that I realized that the big money to build those fancy casino's came from folks like me... who put their money into those fancy machines, and lost it...

one penny at a time! LOL!


----------



## jiml

Most of the Las Vegas buffets did not re-open after closing last Spring and the few that did have now closed again, according to a recent news story.


----------



## IndyLions

railiner said:


> A good question, indeed...
> I think that it would be a hard sell to 'regular traveler's', but may be popular for tourists...
> Perhaps instead of limiting the dining car to only those willing to pay that rather steep rate for a meal, as a "specialty restaurant", they might first try just adding some ala carte high quality items to the regular diner choices, and see how well they sell...



I certainly have been ready for a long time to pay ala carte for some premium desserts, a really nice charcuterie plate, and maybe some decent wine choices. And even though I am not a craft beer drinker, I am sure there is money to be made selling craft beer at an extra cost as well.


----------



## jiml

IndyLions said:


> I certainly have been ready for a long time to pay ala carte for some premium desserts, a really nice charcuterie plate,


Both completely do-able. American Airlines had a great charcuterie plate followed by an ice cream sundae in domestic FC - pre-Covid of course.


----------



## fdaley

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> You do bring up an interesting thought.
> 
> I wonder how many Sleeper passengers will be willing to pay extra to eat in an Amtrak 'specialty restaurant' (aka the dining car) for an additional cost? Say, $50/meal ? Sleeper passengers will still be able to get their complimentary flex meal (aka K-ration  ).



Definitely I would be willing to pay somewhat more for better meal options, even if the extra cost means I wind up traveling less often than in the past. But I'd want a substantial upgrade from the current program -- including more and better entrees, cooked breakfasts, separate lunch and dinner menus, and table service with place settings. In other words, something at least as good as Amtrak's "traditional dining." So that could be a way to win back customers like me who, looking at the current meal program, are deciding we'd rather stay home or find another way.

On the other hand, if we're talking about a really elite class of service -- something like Via's Prestige Class -- I don't think I would ever have a vacation budget big enough to afford it. And I wouldn't have any confidence that Amtrak could deliver an experience that would be worthy of that kind of price. And any increase in sleeper prices makes it that much harder to entice new customers to try it, given that many tend to evaluate the cost by comparing it (unfairly) to what they could pay for an airline coach seat.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> Can someone please explain the justification of 8 meals a day on these expensive cruise lines... from sunrise to sundown, and on to the midnight buffet???
> 
> I mean... where does one put it all when the human stomach is the size of a fist???


Having many meals a day doesn't mean eating at every one of them. Sometimes it means you can do a small meal and then have a little more later or you like eating dinner at 6PM and someone else likes a light late meal at 9PM.

I generally find myself being one of the few who loses weight on a cruise (but never at home). On board, I walk upstairs all the time if there are 6 or fewer decks to go and down the stairs no matter how many. We avoid the breakfast buffet and find the leisurely pacedsit down restaurant results in eating less and enjoying the quiet unhurried company of strangers. Lunch for me is a salad at the buffet plus a dessert (Hey, it is supposed to be fun!) and dinner is always sit-down at the restaurants using any-time dining so we can meet different people and eat when it is convenient. The exception is formal nights - I refuse to dress up when I am on vacation. Generally, the only other thing we have is a fancy coffee in the afternoon but only if I have ship's onboard credit. We spend our evenings a the show then dancing. Alcohol is over priced. She can't take it well and I'm too cheap to get ripped off by alcohol prices so we stick to diet sodas in the evening, coffee (me) or tea (her) at breakfast and water and coffee (me) at lunch and dinner.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> You do bring up an interesting thought.
> 
> I wonder how many Sleeper passengers will be willing to pay extra to eat in an Amtrak 'specialty restaurant' (aka the dining car) for an additional cost? Say, $50/meal ? Sleeper passengers will still be able to get their complimentary flex meal (aka K-ration  ).


But we're already paying an arm and a leg to eat the teenie tiny dehumanizing tasteless disgusting flex meals. Amtrak will never have a 'speciality restaurant' and we are already paying 'speciality restaurant' pricing. So why discuss this???


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Amtrak will never have a 'speciality restaurant'



Pacific Parlour Car came pretty close to checking that box.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Pacific Parlour Car came pretty close to checking that box.



Yes it does... but does that define it as a speciality restaurant?... what would be the definition of what a speciality restaurant would be on an Amtrak train? And just what is the speciality food that was served? Was it regional? Was it some kind of ethnic or ethnic mix? The parlour car served meals which were probably a step above what was served in the dining car... perhaps 'California Cuisine... but does that make it a speciality restaurant of Cali Cuisine speciality food? Maybe it does.

Here is a fun take on what 'speciality restaurant' on a traveling train might mean... but even this doesn't seem to answer the question???...









all aboard for the dining car!


Ah, the romance of trains. Is there anything more elegantly delicious than a freshly cooked meal served in a dining car? * THE DINING CAR OF THE SOUTHERN CRESCENT by John Campbell The…




jamarattigan.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

Although it wasn't Amtrak equipment, while Iowa Pacific was running the Dome/ Diner on the Hoosier State and the Sleeper and Diner/Lounge on the City of New Orleans, that seems Special to me!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Was it regional?



Yes. I had a pasta dish with Beechers cheese. (Beechers is made in Seattle in Pike place market). I had an entree salad with apples from either Washington or Oregon. And I had wines from all 3 states. 

I’d put the parlor car up with any specialty dining from railroad history (in the good days... towards the end it wasn’t quite as good.) 



Bob Dylan said:


> Although it wasn't Amtrak equipment, while Iowa Pacific was running the Dome/ Diner on the Hoosier State and the Sleeper and Diner/Lounge on the City of New Orleans, that seems Special to me!



Yes!!! I’m so glad I got to experience both when I could.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes. I had a pasta dish with Beechers cheese. (Beechers is made in Seattle in Pike place market). I had an entree salad with apples from either Washington or Oregon. And I had wines from all 3 states.
> 
> I’d put the parlor car up with any specialty dining from railroad history (in the good days... towards the end it wasn’t quite as good.)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes!!! I’m so glad I got to experience both when I could.


I'm sorry I missed them!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’d put the parlor car up with any specialty dining from railroad history (in the good days... towards the end it wasn’t quite as good.)


I enjoyed many aspects of the PPC but my experience with the dining component was honestly rather disappointing. They seated me for breakfast with a teaspoon or two of stale potatoes and dried out eggs stuck in the tray corners. The PPC has no kitchen and is not restocked so that was all there would ever be. For lunch I asked for no dressing on my sandwich but the server said it was made off-train and only came one way no matter how you ordered it. Watching them carry in the dinner trays hours before dining started made me wonder why they bothered. It just seemed like a waste of a good idea. The design, views, furniture, decor, and (original) wine tasting were really pleasant though.


----------



## IndyLions

20th Century Rider said:


> But we're already paying an arm and a leg to eat the teenie tiny dehumanizing tasteless disgusting flex meals. Amtrak will never have a 'speciality restaurant' and we are already paying 'speciality restaurant' pricing. So why discuss this???



You are paying an arm and a leg.
You *aren’t* paying an arm and a leg for food.

You are paying an arm and a leg for a sleeper service, which is limited in supply, and has sufficient demand to be filled at the current prices, pandemic aside.

The role bad food *does* play - is as a demand reducer – and if it gets bad enough for long enough demand will drop below supply.

It has reached that point for you and many others. I still take it, but no longer recommend it to others as a vacation experience.

Let’s just hope Amtrak gets somebody competent in charge of food service soon. Because even with the current given limitations, it could be executed sooooooo much better.

And somebody competent would also recognize that the marginal cost is low to add optional, high margin items to those with disposable income.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IndyLions said:


> You are paying an arm and a leg.
> You *aren’t* paying an arm and a leg for food.
> 
> You are paying an arm and a leg for a sleeper service, which is limited in supply, and has sufficient demand to be filled at the current prices, pandemic aside.
> 
> The role bad food *does* play - is as a demand reducer – and if it gets bad enough for long enough demand will drop below supply.
> 
> It has reached that point for you and many others. I still take it, but no longer recommend it to others as a vacation experience.
> 
> Let’s just hope Amtrak gets somebody competent in charge of food service soon. Because even with the current given limitations, it could be executed sooooooo much better.
> 
> And somebody competent would also recognize that the marginal cost is low to add optional, high margin items to those with disposable income.


Food is part of sleeper pricing... which is extremely high... and like many have said, reducing the food diminishes the value and integrity of the product. And yes, it is also based on demand... with bucket levels. But this seems to have changed as the prices are soaring in cars that are not full. I do believe the poor quality of food remains an issue... and in that way many are paying way too much for sleeper accommodations. That includes paying an arm and a leg for bad food.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes. I had a pasta dish with Beechers cheese. (Beechers is made in Seattle in Pike place market). I had an entree salad with apples from either Washington or Oregon. And I had wines from all 3 states.
> 
> I’d put the parlor car up with any specialty dining from railroad history (in the good days... towards the end it wasn’t quite as good.)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes!!! I’m so glad I got to experience both when I could.


I stand corrected... when Amtrak served food and wine from regions it serves; and employed chefs to create regional specialities, that was indeed speciality dining. It would be nice to see it come back!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IndyLions said:


> You are paying an arm and a leg.
> You *aren’t* paying an arm and a leg for food.
> 
> You are paying an arm and a leg for a sleeper service, which is limited in supply, and has sufficient demand to be filled at the current prices, pandemic aside.
> 
> The role bad food *does* play - is as a demand reducer – and if it gets bad enough for long enough demand will drop below supply.
> 
> It has reached that point for you and many others. I still take it, but no longer recommend it to others as a vacation experience.
> 
> Let’s just hope Amtrak gets somebody competent in charge of food service soon. Because even with the current given limitations, it could be executed sooooooo much better.
> 
> And somebody competent would also recognize that the marginal cost is low to add optional, high margin items to those with disposable income.



Even before the pandemic, the full service dining was considered way too high by many... and was considered an important part of the value of sleeper fares.






Amtrak Food Sucks - At Any Price - And It is High - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


Trains magazine offers railroad news, railroad industry insight, commentary on today's freight railroads, passenger service (Amtrak), locomotive technology, railroad preservation and history, railfan opportunities (tourist railroads, fan trips), and great railroad photography.



cs.trains.com


----------



## hlcteacher

have been cruising since 1993 and NEVER gotten ill (not counting 2020 when i did not cruise)


----------



## Charles785

To keep my post simple, here's all I want. What do you think?

All I want is Fred Harvey-quality cuisine and diner ambiance.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Charles785 said:


> To keep my post simple, here's all I want. What do you think?
> 
> All I want is Fred Harvey-quality cuisine and diner ambiance.



I’ll save others a google search -


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ll save others a google search -
> 
> View attachment 20273
> View attachment 20274


Well, I'll take the Turquose Room on the Super Chief!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Well, I'll take the Turquose Room on the Super Chief!


Yes, but the apex of all my railroad dreams was when I went to the restaurant on the Mainstreeter enroute to SEA and was advised that if I was hungry... to get the Idaho Baked Potato. That has got to be one of the best meals I have ever enjoyed... and I didn't leave a single crumb. Mmmm was that good!


----------



## jiml

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes, but the apex of all my railroad dreams was when I went to the restaurant on the Mainstreeter enroute to SEA and was advised that if I was hungry... to get the Idaho Baked Potato. That has got to be one of the best meals I have ever enjoyed... and I didn't leave a single crumb. Mmmm was that good!
> 
> View attachment 20276


I've always wondered where they found a consistent supply of potatoes that size.


----------



## Qapla

Well, while they don't "grow on trees" ... They do grow in the ground ...


----------



## AM_ROAD

Charles785 said:


> To keep my post simple, here's all I want. What do you think?
> 
> All I want is Fred Harvey-quality cuisine and diner ambiance.



Just stayed at the old one converted to a hotel in Las Vegas, NM. Worth a stay if anyone is in the area.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Charles785 said:


> All I want is Fred Harvey-quality cuisine and diner ambiance.





AM_ROAD said:


> Just stayed at the old one converted to a hotel in Las Vegas, NM. Worth a stay if anyone is in the area.


So long as you don't mind it having nothing to do with Amtrak you can find Fred Harvey style dining in several locations. You can also combine the two in a place like Winslow AZ. It's not perfect but it can work with some effort.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Devil's Advocate said:


> So long as you don't mind it having nothing to do with Amtrak you can find Fred Harvey style dining in several locations. You can also combine the two in a place like Winslow AZ. It's not perfect but it can work with some effort.


Although it's not in the Original Location as the authentic Harvey House was, the Beautiful Kansas City Union Station has a Harvey House Deli that several AUers had Lunch in during our Day Trip on the Missouri River Runner during the St. Louis Gathering.


----------



## railiner

Bob Dylan said:


> Well, I'll take the Turquose Room on the Super Chief!


I'll see your Fred Harvey dinner in the Turqoise Room, and raise you a "King's Dinner" on the Panama Limited....


----------



## Sauve850

I really enjoyed the PPC experience. The atmosphere of the car probably enhanced the meal though.


----------



## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> I'll see your Fred Harvey dinner in the Turqoise Room, and raise you a "King's Dinner" on the Panama Limited....


One of my fantasies since I actually got to ride on the Super Chief ( but only ate in the Diner, not the Turquoise Room) but didnt get to ride the Panama Ltd.

The closest I came was riding on the Southern run Crescent which had outstanding food and service in the Diner as you probably know.


----------



## IndyLions

Sauve850 said:


> I really enjoyed the PPC experience. The atmosphere of the car probably enhanced the meal though.



That was my experience too. The environment can really make a difference.

When they were serving meals on the short-lived Hoosier State Dome Lounge, they were only really serving basic food. I think I had a cheeseburger. But eating on a moving train in that nice environment was terrific – and it just made the food taste all the better.

The new Viewliner II Diners are no PPC or Iowa Pacific Dome - but they are nice cars – they really are. Which goes to show you how badly they’ve screwed up the whole food service experience. Say what you will about the taste of the food – I don’t like it but I haven’t starved yet from Flex meals. But aside from the TV dinner food - the whole procedure with food distributed in bags like it’s some sort of takeout, or the way breakfast is set up with a bunch of cereal boxes like you’re at a Hampton Inn. The experience is just not enjoyable, and I’m no snob.


----------



## Railspike

An exceptional PPC experience was when a service attendant named Barbara brought her own spices to add to the canned mix and made "killer" Bloody Marys. Word got out among the PPC passengers how good they were and she made so many she ran out of some of the main ingredients. Great way to start the morning! 
I emailed Amtrak about her exceptional service.


----------



## railiner

Railspike said:


> An exceptional PPC experience was when a service attendant named Barbara brought her own spices to add to the canned mix and made "killer" Bloody Marys. Word got out among the PPC passengers how good they were and she made so many she ran out of some of the main ingredients. Great way to start the morning!
> I emailed Amtrak about her exceptional service.


Great that you took the time to commend an employee for outstanding service...most only do that to complain.
As for her bringing her own ingredients...not sure if management would frown upon that practice, as it may be against Company regulation's, due to FDA or other consideration's that could open liability issues....not sure....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Hmmm... when comparing Hampton Inn breakfast [pre covid] with Amtrak Flex [Eastern routes pre covid], this is what you get...


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> Hmmm... when comparing Hampton Inn breakfast [pre covid] with Amtrak Flex [Eastern routes pre covid], this is what you get...
> 
> View attachment 20289


I haven't stayed at a Hampton in a while. Do they have those do-it-yourself waffle irons? That would go a long way towards improving Amtrak breakfasts.


----------



## Railspike

railiner said:


> Great that you took the time to commend an employee for outstanding service...most only do that to complain.
> As for her bringing her own ingredients...not sure if management would frown upon that practice, as it may be against Company regulation's, due to FDA or other consideration's that could open liability issues....not sure....



I considered that and did not include that in my email to Amtrak.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Great that you took the time to commend an employee for outstanding service...most only do that to complain.
> As for her bringing her own ingredients...not sure if management would frown upon that practice, as it may be against Company regulation's, due to FDA or other consideration's that could open liability issues....not sure....



I’ve had so many SCA’s bring their own snacks, bring their own coffee, etc. that it doesn’t appear any employees are particularly worried about it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

joelkfla said:


> I haven't stayed at a Hampton in a while. Do they have those do-it-yourself waffle irons? That would go a long way towards improving Amtrak breakfasts.


All this was of course pre covid. Hampton serves bagged meals that are pretty substantial and include protein. And they are wrapped with a cheery smile... but meh... covid steals the show everywhere!


----------



## Railspike

I rarely make a trip without emailing Amtrak about my experience - whether good or bad. As someone who has a business, I want to hear from my customers. IMO, Amtrak employees who offer good service should be rewarded by letting management know. Just as much as those who do a lousy job or are rude. I know comments get attention as my wife and I had a terrible experience on a trip in 2017 and reported it in detail. Within a few days, I received a personal call from the Onboard Sevice Manager of that particular train wanting more details. He thanked me profusely for alerting him about the issue. 

Take the time to let them know about your experience. You can do it online. Not that your communication will result in any improvements, but it sure won't improve if you don't let them know what's happening on the trains.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Railspike said:


> I rarely make a trip without emailing Amtrak about my experience - whether good or bad. As someone who has a business, I want to hear from my customers. IMO, Amtrak employees who offer good service should be rewarded by letting management know. Just as much as those who do a lousy job or are rude. I know comments get attention as my wife and I had a terrible experience on a trip in 2017 and reported it in detail. Within a few days, I received a personal call from the Onboard Sevice Manager of that particular train wanting more details. He thanked me profusely for alerting him about the issue.
> 
> Take the time to let them know about your experience. You can do it online. Not that your communication will result in any improvements, but it sure won't improve if you don't let them know what's happening on the trains.


Nice reminder of something we all should be doing... it is Amtrak's responsibility to listen to passengers so that they can provide a service that is acceptable to the traveling public.

And it is the responsibility of Amtrak management to listen and react accordingly...


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve had so many SCA’s bring their own snacks, bring their own coffee, etc. that it doesn’t appear any employees are particularly worried about it.


Bringing their own items for personal consumption is one thing...bringing it to serve passengers is an entirely different matter. 
Not sure what you meant.
I have read that when they discontinued placing mints on the pillows, some enterprising attendants bought their own, even the same ones, but were reprimanded for doing so.


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> All this was of course pre covid. Hampton serves bagged meals that are pretty substantial and include protein. And they are wrapped with a cheery smile... but meh... covid steals the show everywhere!
> 
> View attachment 20290
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20291



Ever since hotels stopped offering their hot breakfast service due to Covid, I have wondered what their "breakfast bags" contain. Is anyone able to offer specifics for wherever you stayed?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Bringing their own items for personal consumption is one thing...bringing it to serve passengers is an entirely different matter.
> Not sure what you meant.
> I have read that when they discontinued placing mints on the pillows, some enterprising attendants bought their own, even the same ones, but were reprimanded for doing so.



I meant serving passengers. I’ve had sca’s brag that they weren’t serving Amtrak coffee for example. 

I’ve gotten mints, candy, cookies, all sorts of snacks from SCA’s.


----------



## me_little_me

railiner said:


> Great that you took the time to commend an employee for outstanding service...most only do that to complain.
> As for her bringing her own ingredients...not sure if management would frown upon that practice, as it may be against Company regulation's, due to FDA or other consideration's that could open liability issues....not sure....


No good deed goes unpunished!


----------



## IndyLions

20th Century Rider said:


> Hmmm... when comparing Hampton Inn breakfast [pre covid] with Amtrak Flex [Eastern routes pre covid], this is what you get...
> 
> View attachment 20289


Sorry guys, There’s nothing attractive about this. I’ve stayed at hundreds of Hampton Inns, and ate plenty of these breakfasts. I’ve also had several of the Flex meal breakfasts. There’s no substantive difference between the two.

A bunch of cereal boxes, yogurt pack, sugar packets, some preheated frozen French toast sticks, maybe if you’re lucky some instant eggs. 

As a matter of fact, that picture on the lower right could very well have been taken from an Amtrak Viewliner II Diner.

After all the (legitimate) complaining about the Flex food, I can’t believe I see a bunch of people raving about Hampton Inn breakfasts.


----------



## IndyLions

Dakota 400 said:


> Ever since hotels stopped offering their hot breakfast service due to Covid, I have wondered what their "breakfast bags" contain. Is anyone able to offer specifics for wherever you stayed?


Usually a cheap McIntosh apple, about as tasteless as you can possibly find. Evokes a chalky sensation in your mouth - making you never want to eat an apple again. Also includes some sort of breakfast bar (I.e. , Nutri-Grain), a sugary, low quality packaged muffin, and a bottle of water. Basically, the exact same to-go bag they were serving before the pandemic, except now it is the only option.

So you are looking at an Amtrak Flex meal breakfast in a bag. Sorry, that’s not being fair to the Flex meal breakfast. The breakfast sandwich on Amtrak is better than anything you’ll get it at a Hampton - before or after the pandemic. And that’s not saying much.


----------



## Sidney

I'll take the cheese ommlette and Scrambled eggs Hampton serves over that Jimmy Dean sandwich they serve om Amtrak.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Sorry guys, There’s nothing attractive about this. I’ve stayed at hundreds of Hampton Inns, and ate plenty of these breakfasts. I’ve also had several of the Flex meal breakfasts. There’s no substantive difference between the two.



I agree Hampton Inn is nothing to write home about but there are at least multiple hot items and hard boiled eggs.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> I agree Hampton Inn is nothing to write home about but there are at least multiple hot items and hard boiled eggs.



Interesting comments about the "pre-covid" offerings for breakfast at Hampton Inns. It has been a long time since I have patronized a Hampton Inn. I favor Marriott related properties. Fairfield Inns usually have a nice selection of cold and hot items including make it yourself waffles and 2-3 types of fresh fruit. Not gourmet fare, to be sure, but, I have generally been quite pleased with what is available.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> Interesting comments about the "pre-covid" offerings for breakfast at Hampton Inns. It has been a long time since I have patronized a Hampton Inn. I favor Marriott related properties. Fairfield Inns usually have a nice selection of cold and hot items including make it yourself waffles and 2-3 types of fresh fruit. Not gourmet fare, to be sure, but, I have generally been quite pleased with what is available.


I thought all Buffets and " Self Service " food was banned in most Ststes/Cities in favor of Boxed/Sacked to go Food??? I


----------



## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> I thought all Buffets and " Self Service " food was banned in most Ststes/Cities in favor of Boxed/Sacked to go Food??? I



My post was referring to my pre-Covid experiences at Fairfield Inns. As far as I know--haven't traveled since January 31st--all hotels are using the breakfast bags to go.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Interesting comments about the "pre-covid" offerings for breakfast at Hampton Inns. It has been a long time since I have patronized a Hampton Inn. I favor Marriott related properties. Fairfield Inns usually have a nice selection of cold and hot items including make it yourself waffles and 2-3 types of fresh fruit. Not gourmet fare, to be sure, but, I have generally been quite pleased with what is available.



Hampton’s and Fairfield’s are pretty much the same as far breakfast. While individual properties will vary, the average is pretty much the same offering.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> I thought all Buffets and " Self Service " food was banned in most Ststes/Cities in favor of Boxed/Sacked to go Food??? I



I was at a Holiday Inn Express last summer and the buffet was still there. The difference now.....they asked what you would like and they prepared your tray. Even waffles!.....and when they were ready they took them to you at your table.


----------



## Sidney

Hampton Inn has been serving their regular breakfast through the pedemic. Only difference is they serve it to you. It beats Amtrak's flex breakfast hands down.


----------



## IndyLions

When Flex Dining rolled out with exactly one hot offering, the battle cry on this forum was “All we need is more hot food choices for dinner!”

When there was nothing hot but oatmeal for breakfast - it was “For the love of Pete - can someone give me a breakfast sandwich!”

Now it’s - “What I _really_ meant was - powdered or hard boiled eggs just like I can get at Fairfield Inn! Now that would be the bomb!”

I'm no food snob - but can we set the bar just a _*little*_ bit higher?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> I'm no food snob - but can we set the bar just a _*little*_ bit higher?



I don’t think that’s what anyone is saying.

Ideally we should have exactly what he had. Breakfasts cooked on board the dining car. 

(Eggs, omelettes, pancakes and oatmeal were all cooked on board from scratch. Other items were pre-cooked but heated in the diner restaurant style, not microwaved to order cafe car style.) 

But it would be nice if the current offerings were at least up to Hampton inn standards.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> I was at a Holiday Inn Express last summer and the buffet was still there. The difference now.....they asked what you would like and they prepared your tray. Even waffles!.....and when they were ready they took them to you at your table.


Things must be a lot better down your way. I recently booked a Marriott property near a hospital where a relative was having surgery. (No one is allowed to wait at hospital due to Covid.) I was counting on getting the included breakfast after dropping them at the hospital first thing in the morning and the 4 pm checkout that is part of my status, allowing me to wait nearby. "No breakfast - Covid; no late check-out - Covid." I cancelled and tried the Holiday Inn Express next door - "No breakfast - Covid". Bottom line - no competition - Covid.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Things must be a lot better down your way. I recently booked a Marriott property near a hospital where a relative was having surgery. (No one is allowed to wait at hospital due to Covid.) I was counting on getting the included breakfast after dropping them at the hospital first thing in the morning and the 4 pm checkout that is part of my status, allowing me to wait nearby. "No breakfast - Covid; no late check-out - Covid." I cancelled and tried the Holiday Inn Express next door - "No breakfast - Covid". Bottom line - no competition - Covid.



The Marriott and Holiday Inn were probably owned by the same company if they were right next door. I’m not traveling right now but on flyertalk there’s quite a bit of complaining how hotel company’s are letting franshises get away with cutting anything they want in the name of covid.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Marriott and Holiday Inn were probably owned by the same company if they were right next door. I’m not traveling right now but on flyertalk there’s quite a bit of complaining how hotel company’s are letting franshises get away with cutting anything they want in the name of covid.


My suspicion as well. As a longtime Flyertalk member I'm well aware of what you're saying. Marriott recently restored our "benefits" but many (if not most) franchisees are not yet complying.


----------



## Sidney

On the Empire Builder. Dissapointed the same four items are still on the menu. No additions,no variety. The "innovative," concept of flex dining is that you could eat whenever you want. They are still taking reservations. Only difference is you are seated alone and meals are no longer something to look forward to.

i noticed the Sightseer car is all tables. Is this the norm on all the trains? Glad I got a Jersey Mike"s sub in Chicago before boarding. Probably the best meal I'll have on my trip. Sad.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Food and travel have always been part of the equation for glamour and excitement that makes the 'getting there' just as important as the destination. There is a lot of talk and speculation on this forum about accommodation and food on the services that are available to us as Americans. And much has been said about forward progress which may cancel out what we remember about the old American traditions.

It is interesting to see how progress and service are advancing in countries and places that have kept rail travel technologically up to date. It seems that tourist trains are the ones to provide gourmet meals... for fares that are... let's just say... as high in the sky as those jets up there. 

But in Europe and other places where rail continues to evolve and improve, passengers enjoy reasonably priced meals which they pay for in the restaurant cars... whether they travel in sleeper or seats. The ever popular bento boxes in the orient provide excellent cuisine at reasonable price... and can be picked up at the station before boarding.

Right now many of us are just sitting at home trying to stay safe from covid... but as we dream of a future that involves travel, there are interesting food trends that may unfold upon the rails. As we speculate and share interesting points of view, we don't need to tie ourselves down the the trends of the past as we look for modern alternatives. Many good articles have been written about cuisine on the rails.









Forget Airplane Food—Let's Talk About Train Food


Airplanes aren’t the only places you can eat good food while en route—here are ten train lines that serve excellent food on board.




www.cntraveler.com









__





european rail dining - Google Search






www.google.com


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## PaTrainFan

Remember the old days when meals were served to all passengers in all classes on virtually every flight of any length? When did that go out, 30 years ago? The airline industry radically changed and people are still flying. Train travel is a much different animal, of course, and is more than just transportation from A to B for many of us. "Experiential" is the previous CEO called it. We all hope Amtrak gets some sense and returns to some measure of what it once had, but realististically that isn't likely in the near future. Unfortnately,the best we can hope for is some incremental improvement with the gruel that is served now.


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## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Marriott and Holiday Inn were probably owned by the same company if they were right next door. I’m not traveling right now but on flyertalk there’s quite a bit of complaining how hotel company’s are letting franshises get away with cutting anything they want in the name of covid.


Except prices. A lot of Marriott hotels have instituted a fee to cover advertising. 

At a Residence Inn in Atlanta, they now charge $12.50 a day for parking. Before Covid, it was free. 

I'm sure other properties are instituting changes like this - and it's doubtful they will stop even when Covid is a thing of the past. Just like the airlines with their "fee for everything so our prices look lower", the hotels will come up with more and more of this. No room cleaning during your stay unless you pay an additional fee. Booking charge for calling for reservation. Breakfast optional at extra cost. A/C usage fee. Parking fees in the suburbs for those wishing to park in "inner lot". Luggage cart rental fee.


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## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Except prices. A lot of Marriott hotels have instituted a fee to cover advertising.
> 
> At a Residence Inn in Atlanta, they now charge $12.50 a day for parking. Before Covid, it was free.
> 
> I'm sure other properties are instituting changes like this - and it's doubtful they will stop even when Covid is a thing of the past. Just like the airlines with their "fee for everything so our prices look lower", the hotels will come up with more and more of this. No room cleaning during your stay unless you pay an additional fee. Booking charge for calling for reservation. Breakfast optional at extra cost. A/C usage fee. Parking fees in the suburbs for those wishing to park in "inner lot". Luggage cart rental fee.


Yet... they will then say that you only pay for what you need. We've discussed deception with the hotel industry on this forum. And as we do quality depreciates and prices go up. 

Amtrak is still and at this time a government run operation. And like the postal system where postage keeps going up and delivery times are taking longer... this and 'all of the above' may happen to rail travel. Pay more and get less.

In countries where rail travel is improving people do pay more; meals are seldom included... and as a result, kiosks and food shops have sprung up around rail stations in large centers selling 'to go' food for travelers to pick up before they get on trains. Perhaps... if the LD concepts survives in America, entrepreneurs will spring up along frequently stopped at stations. This actually does exist at a few Amtrak stations; and passengers pay substantially more for the 'convenience.'

In the end, most will admit that eating three substantial meals while sitting on a train for several days is probably just as unhealthy as the flex meals they are now serving.  

Below... interesting site suggesting bringing your own food aboard is best... pic of a bento box for purchase at a rail station in the orient.









Amtrak: Delivering a New Standard of Travel - Amtrak Media


WASHINGTON - Amtrak is leading the way by setting a new standard of travel with enhanced safety and cleaning measures. In an effort to simplify and safeguard the travel experience, several cleaning, contact-free and convenience measures have been implemented into every part of the customer...




media.amtrak.com


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## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Yet... they will then say that you only pay for what you need. We've discussed deception with the hotel industry on this forum. And as we do quality depreciates and prices go up.
> 
> Amtrak is still and at this time a government run operation. And like the postal system where postage keeps going up and delivery times are taking longer... this and 'all of the above' may happen to rail travel. Pay more and get less.
> 
> In countries where rail travel is improving people do pay more; meals are seldom included... and as a result, kiosks and food shops have sprung up around rail stations in large centers selling 'to go' food for travelers to pick up before they get on trains. Perhaps... if the LD concepts survives in America, entrepreneurs will spring up along frequently stopped at stations. This actually does exist at a few Amtrak stations; and passengers pay substantially more for the 'convenience.'
> 
> In the end, most will admit that eating three substantial meals while sitting on a train for several days is probably just as unhealthy as the flex meals they are now serving.
> 
> Below... interesting site suggesting bringing your own food aboard is best... pic of a bento box for purchase at a rail station in the orient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak: Delivering a New Standard of Travel - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON - Amtrak is leading the way by setting a new standard of travel with enhanced safety and cleaning measures. In an effort to simplify and safeguard the travel experience, several cleaning, contact-free and convenience measures have been implemented into every part of the customer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20305



Oops... here's the online blog about brining your own meals aboard an Amtrak train...









Food to Bring on an Amtrak Trip - Eat Like No One Else


A list of food/snacks to bring aboard on Amtrak train trip. Learn what food you can bring on a train trip and what food is availale on the train itself.




www.eatlikenoone.com


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## tgstubbs1

Restaurants are struggling now, they surely would like any opportunity to increase their business.


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## 20th Century Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> Restaurants are struggling now, they surely would like any opportunity to increase their business.


But for a restaurant to set up at a train station, there must be sufficient traffic to insure survivability of the business.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Marriott and Holiday Inn were probably owned by the same company if they were right next door. I’m not traveling right now but on flyertalk there’s quite a bit of complaining how hotel company’s are letting franshises get away with cutting anything they want in the name of covid.


How much are they cutting the Prices, such as what Amtrak is doing, No Wait------


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> How much are they cutting the Prices, such as what Amtrak is doing, No Wait------


Several factors come into play... competition and demand are key to what is offered at what quality and what price. Another factor is customer frequency... which would drive more businesses to produce better quality at lower price. 

It's interesting to note that when an urban rail system is constructed, businesses spring up along its route... along with high density housing.

Sooo... it seems that LD travel and Corridor travel such as in CALI and the NEC differ in development and opportunities. 

LD in the USA and Canada ... and perhaps the Soviet Union... are in a category of their own... it will be interesting to see what happens to each after covid subsides.

It would also be interesting to see how forum members visualize the future of LD.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-live/2020/07/02/path-forward-future-train-travel/


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## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> I meant serving passengers. I’ve had sca’s brag that they weren’t serving Amtrak coffee for example.
> 
> I’ve gotten mints, candy, cookies, all sorts of snacks from SCA’s.


That really shouldn't be allowed. So many people here complain about inconsistent Amtrak service, and things like this only make that problem worse.

Plus, there are food safety / liability issues if someone claims they got sick from something a crew member brought on board.


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## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> In the end, most will admit that eating three substantial meals while sitting on a train for several days is probably just as unhealthy as the flex meals they are now serving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak: Delivering a New Standard of Travel - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON - Amtrak is leading the way by setting a new standard of travel with enhanced safety and cleaning measures. In an effort to simplify and safeguard the travel experience, several cleaning, contact-free and convenience measures have been implemented into every part of the customer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com


That's kind of misleading in that eating the three traditional meals (even if not being selective about what you choose) may be unhealthy to eat but a couple of days like that don't really hurt one long term unless you kept up the quantity and sat around like riding on a train for months on end. On the OTHER HAND, they don't tast like the garbage meals now served and you had a much bigger variety (different choices at lunch than at dinner makes a big difference). You HAD the opportunity to pick and choose (the lunch salad with chicken and minimal Italian dressing is quite healthy compared to anything "flex".) There is nothing enjoyable about eating the food or tasting it.

"Flex" offers nothing healthy and you have no choice at 2 of the meals to eat healthier since everything is processed junk jumbled together and if you don't want all the carbs, you can't get more of the proteins or veggies (you didn't need more in traditional as you got a lot already).
Worse is the third meal. Breakfast is 100% unadulterated sugar (no unsweetened oatmeal, even) except for a mush-microwaved egg McGarbage).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> That's kind of misleading in that eating the three traditional meals (even if not being selective about what you choose) may be unhealthy to eat but a couple of days like that don't really hurt one long term unless you kept up the quantity and sat around like riding on a train for months on end. On the OTHER HAND, they don't tast like the garbage meals now served and you had a much bigger variety (different choices at lunch than at dinner makes a big difference). You HAD the opportunity to pick and choose (the lunch salad with chicken and minimal Italian dressing is quite healthy compared to anything "flex".) There is nothing enjoyable about eating the food or tasting it.
> 
> "Flex" offers nothing healthy and you have no choice at 2 of the meals to eat healthier since everything is processed junk jumbled together and if you don't want all the carbs, you can't get more of the proteins or veggies (you didn't need more in traditional as you got a lot already).
> Worse is the third meal. Breakfast is 100% unadulterated sugar (no unsweetened oatmeal, even) except for a mush-microwaved egg McGarbage).



I agree with you on the flex meal shamefully unhealthy and disgusting food. 

For the other... it depends on how much one travels on the train as to food preferences when the food is good and the restaurant is open. Although no one knows for sure how things will actually pan out, I personally would like to see the travel fares come down in return for pay as you go food... with the option of bringing aboard your own food... and / or picking things up at stations along the way.

Can we all agree that if it's a responsible management decision based upon the welfare of the passengers, we would all be adaptable to a new and more cost effective way of handling LD rail products?


----------



## MrNews

20th Century Rider said:


> Oops... here's the online blog about brining your own meals aboard an Amtrak train...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Food to Bring on an Amtrak Trip - Eat Like No One Else
> 
> 
> A list of food/snacks to bring aboard on Amtrak train trip. Learn what food you can bring on a train trip and what food is availale on the train itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eatlikenoone.com



Some great suggestions! My last round-trip on Silver Star (TPA - EWR, Sept '19), we brought many of the suggested snacks. Also some home-made sandwiches, hard-boiled eggs, pretzels. I bought a collapsible silicone electric water kettle (16oz, took 3 mins to boiling), which was great for making soup, tea, hot chocolate, enjoyed in the privacy and "cozy" comfort of our roomette. Good for 24-hour journeys, but multiple-day trips might be trickier to arrange self-feeding.

Re buying food at the station to bring onboard: one of the best meals we ever had were large dinner salads purchased at PHL and eaten that evening. Not sure of the vendor, and this was several years ago, but it was memorably delicious.


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## Sidney

Sometimes I will leave out of Philly. I usually get a sub from Jersey Mikes and a soft pretzel from the Philly pretzel stand. Chicago also has a Jersey Mikes. I used them a few days ago. With the substandard food on Amtrak I wanted to get that extra food,and usually I am in a sleeper


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## Qapla

I have seen several articles and comment about bringing food on Amtrak and just what to bring and include things like a heating device for water, wine and cheese and a variety of other "private comforts". Most of these are about what to bring when you travel in a sleeper. 

How about some articles for those who ride coach


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## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> I have seen several articles and comment about bringing food on Amtrak and just what to bring and include things like a heating device for water, wine and cheese and a variety of other "private comforts". Most of these are about what to bring when you travel in a sleeper.
> 
> How about some articles for those who ride coach


Other than the no alcohol rule, can't coach passengers eat the same snacks as sleeper passengers? 

Maybe the soup or hot chocolate would be a challenge but if you are seated near a plug and the cord can reach your fold down tray you could probably heat them, or get hot water from the lounge.


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## Qapla

I don't know how it would work ...

I I am in a sleeper and decide I want to boil water in a cup with my immersion heater - who's going to know with my door shut. However, if I am sitting in the aisle seat with a cord stretched over to the window area where it plugs in and have an immersion heater sitting in a cup of water I am trying to boil - will the attendant allow that? Even if I am sitting at a table in the café car ... will they let me sit in plain sight making a hot cup of soup, coffee or hot chocolate if I need to boil water?


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## crescent-zephyr

It’s a terrible idea to boil your own water on a moving train.


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## tricia

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s a terrible idea to boil your own water on a moving train.


I agree that an immersion heater is unreasonably risky. I travel with a collapsible silicon 2-cup kettle that's stable and enclosed. If you don't fill it full, I think it's pretty safe. The only dicey moment is pouring the boiling water into my travel thermos. Best to do that when the train's stopped.


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## me_little_me

Taking your own food onboard for an overnight or for daytime is easy. We used to do it for overnight back when meals were optional and we had two kids and wanted to take a high priced (for us) bedroom. We'd go to the diner for one meal and the kids would get sandwiches which they preferred to diner meals as they could have what they liked not what was available. We still carry on meals for all coach travel.
However, on a multi-night trip, it is not reasonable as we just can't carry that extra with us and it's not worth it to us to make that effort (or wasn't with traditional meals). With "flex", we will have to reconsider including having food delivered to the train, carrying meals including MREs to heat them, etc.


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## IndyLions

Qapla said:


> I have seen several articles and comment about bringing food on Amtrak and just what to bring and include things like a heating device for water, wine and cheese and a variety of other "private comforts". Most of these are about what to bring when you travel in a sleeper.
> 
> How about some articles for those who ride coach


When I’m traveling coach (on a plane) or even in a sleeper - and I need to carry on food - my first thought is smell.

In shared or confined spaces - the last thing you want is smelly food - even if it tastes great. Your neighbors might not think so - and heck you might not think so either 30 minutes later.

Most desserts are great, as are mild versions of charcuterie plates and a variety of crackers. Fresh fruit - strawberries, blueberries - but not if it is approaching overripe status. And avoid sticky fruit like pineapple. That juice gets everywhere.

No stinky cheese, no spicy meats, never any fish of any kind, no matter how mild. 

Personally, I like cold pizza and cold fried chicken - but if there’s a chance it’s really greasy - I’ll pass on that around others but might take the risk in a sleeper on my own.

As others have said, heating appliances of any kind are a baaaad idea. Someone could get hurt - and it could be you...


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## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> When Flex Dining rolled out with exactly one hot offering, the battle cry on this forum was “All we need is more hot food choices for dinner!” When there was nothing hot but oatmeal for breakfast - it was “For the love of Pete - can someone give me a breakfast sandwich!” Now it’s - “What I _really_ meant was - powdered or hard boiled eggs just like I can get at Fairfield Inn! Now that would be the bomb!”


If you want to make broad claims like this then start with a neutral poll rather than a series of fake quotes. While the minimum standard at a Hampton is quite low it's still higher than the minimum flex standard on Amtrak.



PaTrainFan said:


> Remember the old days when meals were served to all passengers in all classes on virtually every flight of any length? When did that go out, 30 years ago? The airline industry radically changed and people are still flying.


I've yet to see an Amtrak-length flight without coach meals included, despite most flights departing airports with several meal options while Amtrak typically departs from stations with no meaningful services.



20th Century Rider said:


> Perhaps... if the LD concepts survives in America, entrepreneurs will spring up along frequently stopped at stations. This actually does exist at a few Amtrak stations; and passengers pay substantially more for the 'convenience.'


I wouldn't want to risk my money making food that would spoil if the two trains per day ran too late. That leaves more basic pantry items that can survive disruptions. Bento makers don't have to worry about this in Japan because the trains are frequent, dependable, and operate during mealtime hours. The other option is to prearrange fresh meals so the vendor is covered regardless of what the train does but Amtrak has apparently ended those contracts.


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## tgstubbs1

Hopefully Amtrak will make some big changes to the menu someday, but my guess it won't be very soon. Until then it looks like alternative or even stopgap measures are a finicky passengers' best bet. 

I agree about immersion heaters. They are very compact but almost a little dangerous. They will burn out in a split second if run dry. When I was in college my roommates' electric teapot exploded when it ran dry. 

These devices are usually at least 300w, which makes them relatively fast. I have looked at thermoelectric devices that can heat and cool. While they are extremely simple and reliable and used in aerospace and high tech devices for cooling they apparently don't heat as well. On the other hand they typically use only 36w, almost a tenth of the power.


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> You're aware the forum is made up of many voices with competing views rather than a cult moving in lock step right? While the minimum standard at a Hampton is quite low it's still higher than the minimum flex standard on Amtrak.
> 
> 
> After hundreds of flights and dozens of airlines I've yet to see an Amtrak length trip without included coach meals, despite the fact that most flights depart locations with plenty of meal options while Amtrak does not.
> 
> 
> That works in Japan but they have several trains arriving and departing on a dependable schedule during mealtime hours. That's not to say it's impossible to work here but I don't see why someone with business sense would risk their money on making food that might spoil if the train was too late. That basically leaves pantry items that can easily survive a missed day or three. The other option is to contract for freshly prepared food so the vendor is covered regardless of what the train does but Amtrak has apparently abandoned those contracts.



That's where the 'perhaps' comes in... it certainly wouldn't work with today's conditions. Unfortunately there is no crystal ball to tell us what the future holds... and we might all be surprised to see how things come together in the next few years!


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## Qapla

tgstubbs1 said:


> I agree about immersion heaters.



I also agree that an immersion heater is not the safest thing to use on a train. However, the point I was making is that, while a variety of options for food choice and preparation are available for those in sleepers. not all those options would work while riding in coach ... and, while there are usually more on a train riding in coach, most of the articles/comments I have seen about what to take are aimed at sleepers passengers who, while it is not the most appetizing food, have meals included in their fare - while coach passengers no longer have access to those meals.


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## 20th Century Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> Hopefully Amtrak will make some big changes to the menu someday, but my guess it won't be very soon. Until then it looks like alternative or even stopgap measures are a finicky passengers' best bet.
> 
> I agree about immersion heaters. They are very compact but almost a little dangerous. They will burn out in a split second if run dry. When I was in college my roommates' electric teapot exploded when it ran dry.
> 
> These devices are usually at least 300w, which makes them relatively fast. I have looked at thermoelectric devices that can heat and cool. While they are extremely simple and reliable and used in aerospace and high tech devices for cooling they apparently don't heat as well. On the other hand they typically use only 36w, almost a tenth of the power.



In the past, hot water and ice have been available to all passengers in the cafe car... no charge. I wonder if this has changed. One can bring their own Asian soup or powdered coffee / tea and just ask for hot water. 

It seems that all these convenience policies at Amtrak have been disrupted by the pandemic.


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## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> I am sitting in the aisle seat with a cord stretched over to the window area where it plugs in and have an immersion heater sitting in a cup of water I am trying to boil - will the attendant allow that? Even if I am sitting at a table in the café car ... will they let me sit in plain sight making a hot cup of soup, coffee or hot chocolate if I need to boil water?



I think the official Amtrak rule precludes eating or preparing personal food in the common use lounge or Cafe areas. At your coach seat they don't restrict you but I know 110v outlets aren't conveniently located for all coach seats.


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## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> I don't know how it would work ...
> 
> I I am in a sleeper and decide I want to boil water in a cup with my immersion heater - who's going to know with my door shut. However, if I am sitting in the aisle seat with a cord stretched over to the window area where it plugs in and have an immersion heater sitting in a cup of water I am trying to boil - will the attendant allow that? Even if I am sitting at a table in the café car ... will they let me sit in plain sight making a hot cup of soup, coffee or hot chocolate if I need to boil water?


Hot water is complimentary to all coach passengers... just go to the cafe and ask for it. Unless the policy has changed or the attendant has an attitude problem... you can get the hot water for your own coffee or tea. You shouldn't need to heat the water yourself... sleeper or coach.


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## tgstubbs1

20th Century Rider said:


> One can bring their own Asian soup or powdered coffee / tea and just ask for hot water.



There are other varieties of soup. Ramen noodles of course, but also split pea, chicken and noodles, hot and sour, etc. 
There are some kinds of instant rice products in microwavable cups, too. A risotto, I guess. Also potatoes au gratin or instant mashed potatoes.


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## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> In the past, hot water and ice have been available to all passengers in the cafe car... no charge. I wonder if this has changed. One can bring their own Asian soup or powdered coffee / tea and just ask for hot water.


I think you can still expect hot water and ice on most trains, or at least I haven't seen any definitive proof those requests no longer being honored, but some staff seem to do whatever they want with or without a pandemic.



tgstubbs1 said:


> I think the official Amtrak rule precludes eating or preparing personal food in the common use lounge or Cafe areas. At your coach seat they don't restrict you but I know 110v outlets aren't conveniently located for all coach seats.


On Western trains they don't want you eating your own food on the lower lounge level but the upper level is fair game. So long as you refrain from opening smelly food in an enclosed area and clean up after there should be no problems.


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## Qapla

Getting hot water may still be available upon request ... I have not been on Amtrak since the pandemic began (and don't plan to be anytime soon)

While it may be possible to get hot water - how easy is it to make soup or other hot meals (like oatmeal) while riding coach? You can't stand at the café counter while the water is hot and do it. Will you be able to sit at a table and make it? There may not be a table available even if the attendant(s) let you. By the time you walk back to your seat and make the attempt at your seat the water may no longer be as hot as you need/like - not to mention that a fellow passenger or attendant may object to you preparing your "hot meal". 

In a sleeper none of these are a problem since you can heat your own water and make your hot (whatever) in the privacy of your room with your door closed.

My original question/point was not how to obtain hot water - it was more about most articles and/or posts about what to bring to eat are centered around what can be brought to have "yummy" food in a sleeper ... but not many articles and/or posts are about what kind of food to bring if you are riding in coach - especially if the trip is multiple days (and, yes, I would/could ride coach from JAX to CHI, LAX, DEN, PDX or other places longer than just to NWK or NYP


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## tgstubbs1

Devil's Advocate said:


> .
> 
> 
> On Western trains they don't want you eating your own food on the lower lounge level but the upper level is fair game. So long as you refrain from opening smelly food in an enclosed area and clean up after there should be no problems.



I don't think I would recommend that people flaunt official Amtrak policy because I've seen people redirected to their coach seats, with their food, on the Coast Starlight.

Maybe it depends on the crew, or how crowded the train is. With the coronavirus they might have changed.

I don't have any particular knowledge about dehydrated camping food, but I know places like REI have a selection.


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## Devil's Advocate

Devil's Advocate said:


> On Western trains they don't want you eating your own food on the lower lounge level but the upper level is fair game. So long as you refrain from opening smelly food in an enclosed area and clean up after there should be no problems.





tgstubbs1 said:


> I don't think I would recommend that people flaunt official Amtrak policy because I've seen people redirected to their coach seats, with their food, on the Coast Starlight.












Personal Food, Beverages and Medication on Amtrak


Before you begin your trip, read the guidelines for bringing personal food, beverages and medication onboard our trains.




www.amtrak.com


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## tgstubbs1

That's interesting but I have witnessed people ushered out, at least twice.


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> That's interesting but I have witnessed people ushered out, at least twice.


On a Superliner lounge?


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> On a Superliner lounge?


It was the CS. Is there a regular Lounge as well as a Superliner Lounge? 

What is the 'coronavirus' friendly recommendation?

Once I was downstairs and some people bought something and wanted to use the table. 

I found that sitting in my seat using the tray made the most sense, even if I bought the food in the lounge.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> It was the CS. Is there a regular Lounge as well as a Superliner Lounge?
> 
> What is the 'coronavirus' friendly recommendation?
> 
> Once I was downstairs and some people bought something and wanted to use the table.
> 
> I found that sitting in my seat using the tray made the most sense, even if I bought the food in the lounge.



The Coast Starlight would have been a Superliner lounge. 

The Sightseer Lounge Cars have a different set of rules than the single level cafe cars, that’s why I was asking.


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Coast Starlight would have been a Superliner lounge.
> 
> The Sightseer Lounge Cars have a different set of rules than the single level cafe cars, that’s why I was asking.


It was a Superliner. I don't know if it was a Superliner Sightseer but there were no tables. Maybe these people were just using too much space. I recall seating was limited. I think they had a crock pot, picnic basket, or some other bulky item as well.


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> It was a Superliner. I don't know if it was a Superliner Sightseer but there were no tables. Maybe these people were just using too much space. I recall seating was limited. I think they had a crock pot, picnic basket, or some other bulky item as well.



If it was in recent years there were tables, sightseer lounge cars have tables on one end, and Lounge seating on the other.

You are not allowed to bring your own food downstairs, but you can bring it upststairs. That’s the written rules. 

Of course a crew can always make up new rules that’s for sure.


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## 20th Century Rider

Lots of discussion about those ramen noodles. The ramen cups need only that you remove the top and pour in hot water ... and let stand for 3 minutes. Most of the time the cafe attendant will be happy to pour hot water into the cup... however now with covid that many not be possible. 

Oooh... I am so looking forward to regaining some kind of 'normal!'


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Lots of discussion about those ramen noodles. The ramen cups need only that you remove the top and pour in hot water ... and let stand for 3 minutes. Most of the time the cafe attendant will be happy to pour hot water into the cup... however now with covid that many not be possible.
> 
> Oooh... I am so looking forward to regaining some kind of 'normal!'
> 
> View attachment 20330



Did Amtrak stop selling ramen noodles in the cafe cars?


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> Of course a crew can always make up new rules that’s for sure.




He said it was an Amtrak rule, maybe because there were no tables he was right. There were people milling around hoping to get a seat and these people were putting out a 'spread' so to speak.

I had no problem with eating at my seat in coach, the trays are big enough. I would probably prefer staying socially distant as well.

I found this on the web. I'm not sure how it compares to the breakfast at the Hampton Inn but I can't tolerate that sugary stuff at all.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Did Amtrak stop selling ramen noodles in the cafe cars?


Nope... it's on the national cafe menu on their website... just dowloaded this pdf. But at $2.75 a cup you should bring your own... 3 or 4 for a buck at the grocery store... they are light and easy to carry.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> But at $2.75 a cup you should bring your own...



Huh? With that logic I should bring my own salad to eat in a restaurant since a head of lettuce is so cheap.... lol.


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? With that logic I should bring my own salad to eat in a restaurant since a head of lettuce is so cheap.... lol.


For the $2.75 I think they pour the water in for you and heat it in the microwave.

I would be careful about what kind of ramen noodles I would eat. A lot of them are deep fried. Plus the seasoning packet has a lot of sodium. 

Maybe shopping at a store you could get healthier ones. 

I nixed the motel breakfast bars several years ago and instead make Tasters' Choice.

It's ok with really hot water but there's nothing worse than tepid instant coffee.
I always take my immersion heater in case there's no microwave.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? With that logic I should bring my own salad to eat in a restaurant since a head of lettuce is so cheap.... lol.



For a cup of ramen noodles they charge $2.75. It's 25 cents in the super market and light and easy to carry. I've known the value of a dollar... when I was a substitute teacher making $10 per hour with 3 college degrees... and struggling.

That's my logic... I know the value of a dollar and I know how hard I've had to work to make ends meet. 

And you say 'With that logic I should bring my own salad to eat in a restaurant since a head of lettuce is so cheap.'

Nope... you got it wrong... and the logic stated is right... the Amtrak cafe is not like that restaurant you are talking about. It's the public cafe for the people who are traveling on the train.

I will restate again the all of us don't live in a world of inherited wealth... and some of us work very hard for every penny:
"But at $2.75 a cup you should bring your own... 3 or 4 for a buck at the grocery store... they are light and easy to carry."

Not laughing out loud...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tgstubbs1 said:


> I don't think I would recommend that people flaunt official Amtrak policy because I've seen people redirected to their coach seats, with their food, on the Coast Starlight.





tgstubbs1 said:


> That's interesting but I have witnessed people ushered out, at least twice.


I am not doubting what you saw but I am disputing that what you saw falls under official Amtrak policy.


----------



## joelkfla

tgstubbs1 said:


> He said it was an Amtrak rule, maybe because there were no tables he was right. There were people milling around hoping to get a seat and these people were putting out a 'spread' so to speak.
> 
> I had no problem with eating at my seat in coach, the trays are big enough. I would probably prefer staying socially distant as well.
> 
> I found this on the web. I'm not sure how it compares to the breakfast at the Hampton Inn but I can't tolerate that sugary stuff at all.
> 
> View attachment 20331


Says you need "boiling" water. Don't know whether hot water from the lounge would be hot enough to get satisfactory results (especially if you have to carry it to your room or seat before adding.)

And if those are foil packets, or anything you need to hold on to, trying to pour hot water into them on a moving train would be risky.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Qapla said:


> Getting hot water may still be available upon request ... I have not been on Amtrak since the pandemic began (and don't plan to be anytime soon)



On our most recent Wolverine trips (pre-pandemic) I was advised that hot water was no longer available in Coach. You could purchase hot tea, and just not use the teabag, but free hot water was discontinued. We used to bring our own teabags and instant oatmeal, ask the Cafe car attendant for a cup of hot water, and tip a dollar for the water.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Nope... it's on the national cafe menu on their website... just dowloaded this pdf. But at $2.75 a cup you should bring your own... 3 or 4 for a buck at the grocery store... they are light and easy to carry.
> 
> View attachment 20334


They’ve still got most of the microwaveable stuff. They cut the fresh selections (IE healthier options) salads, sandwiches, etc. Hopefully they’ll return after the pandemic..


----------



## tgstubbs1

Devil's Advocate said:


> I am not doubting what you saw but I am disputing that what you saw falls under official Amtrak policy.


Maybe you are right. Is there a clause about "smelly" food? They had a crock pot in a quilted insulation cover and the food did have considerable aroma. Maybe it was disruptive or something.

Not the same as someone eating a sandwich or bowl of cereal.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tgstubbs1 said:


> Maybe you are right. Is there a clause about "smelly" food? They had a crock pot in a quilted insulation cover and the food did have considerable aroma. Maybe it was disruptive or something. Not the same as someone eating a sandwich or bowl of cereal.


I'm unaware of a term or condition that specifically mentions smelly food but staff discretion can be used to help avoid negatively impacting other passengers unnecessarily. If it were up to me warnings against opening/heating odorous foodstuffs would be part of the website, mobile app, and ticket notices. It hasn't been a major problem on my past trips but as on board food service becomes more of a footnote over time it could get worse in the future.


----------



## tgstubbs1

That makes perfect sense. They don't necessarily spell out every single thing that people might consider unreasonable. 
Until the Amtrak dining gets better the smells could get worse. That's why I'm an advocate for outdoor dining.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Here are a few things I might take if I were traveling now.





Qapla said:


> what kind of food to bring if you are riding in coach





Qapla said:


> By the time you walk back to your seat and make the attempt at your seat the water may no longer be as hot as you need/like - not to mention that a fellow passenger or attendant may object to you preparing your "hot meal".



If they still have hot water maybe a thermos would help.


----------



## Qapla

I might get put out of the house if I bought "Mission" tortillas/wraps to take on a train.

My daughters are vendors for



Not to mention I do not like pistachios


----------



## me_little_me

tgstubbs1 said:


> Here are a few things I might take if I were traveling now.


Here are a few things I take in coach - including the grill!



Somehow, I get very popular with other passengers on the train and even the conductor usually lines up for a meal or two!


----------



## jiml

me_little_me said:


> Here are a few things I take in coach - including the grill!
> View attachment 20350
> 
> 
> Somehow, I get very popular with other passengers on the train and even the conductor usually lines up for a meal or two!


How much do you charge?


----------



## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> I might get put out of the house if I bought "Mission" tortillas/wraps to take on a train.
> 
> My daughters are vendors for
> View attachment 20347
> 
> 
> Not to mention I do not like pistachios


Sorry about the pistachios. These don't leave shells all over the floor. Does that make a difference?

I'm not really sure what to do with tortillas on the train anyway.

Here are a few more items.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bringing snacks with strong flavors that lack a pervasive smell can be a challenge but I've found these to work reasonably well...


----------



## AFS1970

I have brought snacks on the train before, and I usually ride in coach. However I am not sure other than cost why my response to a les than stellar flex meal would be to bring my own meal of the same or similar quality like ramen or a mashed potato bowl. Anything I can cook on a train is likely to be just as unhealthy as what Amtrak currently chooses to cook on a train.


----------



## tgstubbs1

This is probably true, but I can bring snacks that aren't 80% carbohydrates while the Amtrak menu is loaded with carbs. 



me_little_me said:


> Here are a few things I take in coach - including the grill!
> View attachment 20350
> 
> 
> Somehow, I get very popular with other passengers on the train and even the conductor usually lines up for a meal or two!




The bbq is ideal as long as we get outdoor dining.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> Here are a few things I might take if I were traveling now.
> View attachment 20339
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they still have hot water maybe a thermos would help.


Yum! You're making me hungry with obvious and affordable choices. Certainly better than the flex stuff... which sleeper passengers must pay for and who may be unable to stomach!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Bringing snacks with strong flavors that lack a pervasive smell can be a challenge but I've found these to work reasonably well...
> 
> View attachment 20344
> View attachment 20352
> 
> 
> View attachment 20355
> View attachment 20353
> 
> View attachment 20359
> 
> View attachment 20358
> 
> 
> View attachment 20356
> 
> 
> View attachment 20343
> 
> View attachment 20354
> 
> View attachment 20357


Mmmm! Looks like a party to me!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I may have missed it... but has anyone mentioned beef jerky? Doesn't have any kind of offensive aroma, tastes delicious, and chewy fun. And for all the vegetarians... there's also possibilities with dried veggies and fruit. Yum! Enjoy the clip:









How to Make Beef Jerky


Learn how to make beef jerky in this handy how to, including some ideas on how to flavour and season the meat.




www.greatbritishchefs.com


----------



## Qapla

I usually do take jerky. I also like to take pretzels (they hold up better than chips) ... besides, I have access to the Snyder Brand since I also have a daughter that is a vendor for them.

I sometimes grab a sandwich from someplace like 
since they keep quite well in the same cooler I bring some drinks in.


----------



## Sidney

I'm on the Sunset/Texas Eagle from LA to Chicago. I keep hoping for things to improve. Rubbery Jimmy Dean sandwich for breakfast,barely edible pasta for lunch. Dinner will be no better. Tomorrow repeat. There is a Dennys near the San Antonio station. Hopefully there will be enough time to grab breakfast during the layover. Dennys will be like a gourmet restaurant compared to Amtraks flexible dining.

I love riding,but something has to be done about that dreck they are serving. Unfortunately,until full service dining returns(if it ever does) passengers are stuck with this. On the Eastern trains there is no hope.

I doubt any Amtrak executive has ever taken a cross country trip and "experienced" the joy that is flex dining.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sidney said:


> I'm on the Sunset/Texas Eagle from LA to Chicago. I keep hoping for things to improve. Rubbery Jimmy Dean sandwich for breakfast,barely edible pasta for lunch. Dinner will be no better. Tomorrow repeat. There is a Dennys near the San Antonio station. Hopefully there will be enough time to grab breakfast during the layover. Dennys will be like a gourmet restaurant compared to Amtraks flexible dining.
> 
> I love riding,but something has to be done about that dreck they are serving. Unfortunately,until full service dining returns(if it ever does) passengers are stuck with this. On the Eastern trains there is no hope.
> 
> I doubt any Amtrak executive has ever taken a cross country trip and "experienced" the joy that is flex dining.


You probably won't have time to go to Dennys during the Switching in Ssn Antonio from #2 to #22 as the Sunset Ltd is usually Late into SA.

Southbound on #21/#421 is different with the 3-4 Hour Dwell time.

The Eagle ( #422/#22) leaves for Chicago @ 7am after the quick switching.


----------



## me_little_me

jiml said:


> How much do you charge?


My grill charges are in 5 different buckets (six if you count the KFC). Buckets move up when demand is high. Each type of food has its own bucket so filet mignon is in one, burgers in another, hot dogs, etc. So sometimes the filet is as cheap or cheaper than two burgers (or even one) but at other times like when there is only one left, the price gets really high. There is a fixed cost for the side items. I got the idea from some company but I can't remember its name.


----------



## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> View attachment 20354


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> I usually do take jerky. I also like to take pretzels (they hold up better than chips) ... besides, I have access to the Snyder Brand since I also have a daughter that is a vendor for them.
> 
> I sometimes grab a sandwich from someplace like View attachment 20361
> since they keep quite well in the same cooler I bring some drinks in.


Hey! That's a great idea... and will keep that restaurant in mind for grab n' rail!


----------



## tgstubbs1

Sidney said:


> I doubt any Amtrak executive has ever taken a cross country trip and "experienced" the joy that is flex dining.


Maybe not but I'm sure you can take solace in that it's unlikely the Amtrak executives are doing it to spite you.

They're clearly in survival mode and might be for much of this year.

Meanwhile, if you can catch me_little_me's 'on the train' food truck ( probably operating without a licence) you can grab a bucket of KFC and it might last you all day. 

Fried chicken for breakfast. Not bad, and I'm sure the Colonel would approve.


----------



## Sidney

i understand the situation during this pedemic. I just wish there were better offerings than what they are serving.

I was on the EB last June. At Shelby pizza and KFC was brought aboard and we were offered them in lieu of the flex stuff. I 've been on several trains since then and that is the only time it happened.

Yes,I would welcome KFC for breakfast.


----------



## Sidney

One more thought. The term "flexible dining" is supposed to mean you can eat anytime you want. Yet,every train I have been on on my trip you have to eat at a specific time. So why do they call it "flexible dining"?


----------



## tgstubbs1

Sidney said:


> One more thought. The term "flexible dining" is supposed to mean you can eat anytime you want. Yet,every train I have been on on my trip you have to eat at a specific time. So why do they call it "flexible dining"?


I think it's because the plates are flexible.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Sidney said:


> I'm on the Sunset/Texas Eagle from LA to Chicago. I keep hoping for things to improve. Rubbery Jimmy Dean sandwich for breakfast,barely edible pasta for lunch. Dinner will be no better. Tomorrow repeat. There is a Dennys near the San Antonio station. Hopefully there will be enough time to grab breakfast during the layover. Dennys will be like a gourmet restaurant compared to Amtraks flexible dining.
> 
> I love riding,but something has to be done about that dreck they are serving. Unfortunately,until full service dining returns(if it ever does) passengers are stuck with this. On the Eastern trains there is no hope.
> 
> I doubt any Amtrak executive has ever taken a cross country trip and "experienced" the joy that is flex dining.



Why does it have to be so bad? I've had very good meals in airline first class. Also nicely served. They don't hand you a plastic bag of food served on plastic plates.


----------



## Railspike

I fully understand that Amtrak is in a cost-saving mode on steroids. But aren't they always in some kind of a cost-saving mode? As for the terrible "flex dining", food is food. While there are different grades of meat quality (select, choice, and prime) and grades of other food items, I believe a good chef can take the lowest grade of meat and make a tasty, edible, well-balanced meal with it. Be it meat, pasta, vegetables, fruits, etc., it's all in how it's prepared. These so-called top-shelf chefs that Amtrak touts as the creators of these delicious "meals(?)", need to consider another vocation. I think some of the contributors to this thread could vastly improve the offerings on the same Amtrak food budget. Perhaps someone should send a delicious "flex" meal to Amtrak's corporate offices with a note saying "Bon Appetit". I would do it but I'm not riding these days. Not because of COVID, but because we usually take 2-3 day trips and I'm not eating "flex-meals" for one meal, much less 2-3 days.


----------



## lordsigma

Ferroequinologist said:


> Why does it have to be so bad? I've had very good meals in airline first class. Also nicely served. They don't hand you a plastic bag of food served on plastic plates.


You most likely won't get a very good meal in airline first class right now on a domestic flight. Yes flexible dining came to the eastern trains before the pandemic and it may involve a fight to get back better meals on long distance afterwards depending on what Amtrak does - but its use out west and other F&B cuts Amtrak has made (cuts to all the cafe cars besides Auto Train and to the Acela first meals) are due to the pandemic and are in line with what airlines have done - airlines have made cuts to onboard amenities like Amtrak. I like everyone hope for improvements once we get back to normal, but until that happens and Amtrak gets an idea of what ridership is going to be going forward we're just all going to have to live with what's being offered for the very few actually travelling right now. If you look at the November report the NEC is bleeding money ($70 million in operating losses so far along with the usual capital costs) and state supported and long distance aren't doing much better. I'm sure subsequent reports will continue this trend. Sadly Amtrak is in survival mode and improving F&B service probably isn't close to the forefront of discussions at the company at this time. It's great to brainstorm as we are here about what improvements they can make when the time comes, but until that time comes it just "ain't going to happen."


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> One more thought. The term "flexible dining" is supposed to mean you can eat anytime you want. Yet,every train I have been on on my trip you have to eat at a specific time. So why do they call it "flexible dining"?


Why do they call it dining?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Sadly Amtrak is in survival mode and improving F&B service probably isn't close to the forefront of discussions at the company at this time. It's great to brainstorm as we are here about what improvements they can make when the time comes, but until that time comes it just "ain't going to happen."



Well said. Bill Flynn was very positive and optimistic in his 50th Year for Amtrak message. Things will certainly continue to evolve... but I have to think the food service will evolve away from what it is now given the negative reactions from so many of us. As equipement is upgraded so will food service and handling. Add to that an almost universal desire for fresh and tasty food... and we've just gotta hope we will get there! 🌶









Amtrak Debuts NEC Corridor Caf‌é Menu Featuring New Items Including Gourmet Boar’s Head® Menu Options - Amtrak Media


WASHINGTON – Beginning June 13, Amtrak customers traveling onboard Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains can now choose from a new contemporary Corridor Café Menu, featuring fresh new premium products from Boar’s Head Brand as well as a wide variety of high quality snacks, drinks and sundries.



media.amtrak.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Well said. Bill Flynn was very positive and optimistic in his 50th Year for Amtrak message. Things will certainly continue to evolve... but I have to think the food service will evolve away from what it is now given the negative reactions from so many of us. As equipement is upgraded so will food service and handling. Add to that an almost universal desire for fresh and tasty food... and we've just gotta hope we will get there! 🌶
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Debuts NEC Corridor Caf‌é Menu Featuring New Items Including Gourmet Boar’s Head® Menu Options - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON – Beginning June 13, Amtrak customers traveling onboard Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains can now choose from a new contemporary Corridor Café Menu, featuring fresh new premium products from Boar’s Head Brand as well as a wide variety of high quality snacks, drinks and sundries.
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20384


Some hope, but well see once we get a handle on the Pandemic and what the opposition in Congress does!!???


----------



## Dakota 400

tgstubbs1 said:


> Fried chicken for breakfast. Not bad, and I'm sure the Colonel would approve.



In some places. chicken and waffles is a popular breakfast entree.


----------



## tricia

20th Century Rider said:


> View attachment 20384



Gee, can I have one of those for breakfast, please?


----------



## jiml

lordsigma said:


> You most likely won't get a very good meal in airline first class right now on a domestic flight.


Recent reviews support this statement. Only Alaska was offering anything resembling pre-pandemic First Class food.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tricia said:


> Gee, can I have one of those for breakfast, please?


Absolutely but please hold that 'flex meal!'


----------



## Qapla

While it is true that Amtrak is trying to work within the constraints of C-19 right now - that does not provide an excuse for the dismal "flex-dining food", since it was already being served on the east coast trains well before the pandemic.

When much better meals can be purchased from Walmart for less than I have seen quoted as what Amtrak pays for the flex-meals ... there is no excuse, not even the pandemic, for the poor quality and lack of variety meals Amtrak is serving.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> While it is true that Amtrak is trying to work within the constraints of C-19 right now - that does not provide an excuse for the dismal "flex-dining food", since it was already being served on the east coast trains well before the pandemic.
> 
> When much better meals can be purchased from Walmart for less than I have seen quoted as what Amtrak pays for the flex-meals ... there is no excuse, not even the pandemic, for the poor quality and lack of variety meals Amtrak is serving.



Well said! The entire flex meal concept is totally unacceptable... it is not fresh but processed, then frozen, then reheated in such a way that the plastic melts around the food creating carcinogenic risks, and the steady diet of such food product with so much sodium and fat is hard on the digestion system.

The flex food concept needs to be removed from the eastern trains, the LD trains, and the Acela 1st class meals... when they put that puddle of fatty beef, polenta, and gray string beans in a somewhat fancier dish, I gasped! Yes, on Acela 1!

BTW... Anyone want my brownie?


----------



## Sidney

Would it be so difficult to serve cheesecake for dessert? Aren't there any refrigerators on board? I skip the salad and brownie. I remember when meal time was something to look forward to. I'll be changing trains tomorrow in Chicago. Eating at one of the facilities before I continue will be an upgrade.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> Would it be so difficult to serve cheesecake for dessert? Aren't there any refrigerators on board? I skip the salad and brownie. I remember when meal time was something to look forward to. I'll be changing trains tomorrow in Chicago. Eating at one of the facilities before I continue will be an upgrade.



You’re tired of the choice between brownie and brownie? Shocking.  haha


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sidney said:


> Would it be so difficult to serve cheesecake for dessert? Aren't there any refrigerators on board? I skip the salad and brownie. I remember when meal time was something to look forward to. I'll be changing trains tomorrow in Chicago. Eating at one of the facilities before I continue will be an upgrade.


Hopefully there will be places Open around Union Station during you're layover!!!???


----------



## Sidney

That rib place is open as well as McDonalds and Jersey Mikes subs are open. All three are a welcome break from Amtraks "flexible dining" which is an oxymoron. You still have to make a dinner reservation and I would hardly call it "dining".


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> You most likely won't get a very good meal in airline first class right now on a domestic flight. Yes flexible dining came to the eastern trains before the pandemic and it may involve a fight to get back better meals on long distance afterwards depending on what Amtrak does - but its use out west and other F&B cuts Amtrak has made (cuts to all the cafe cars besides Auto Train and to the Acela first meals) are due to the pandemic and are in line with what airlines have done - airlines have made cuts to onboard amenities like Amtrak. I like everyone hope for improvements once we get back to normal, but until that happens and Amtrak gets an idea of what ridership is going to be going forward we're just all going to have to live with what's being offered for the very few actually travelling right now. If you look at the November report the NEC is bleeding money ($70 million in operating losses so far along with the usual capital costs) and state supported and long distance aren't doing much better. I'm sure subsequent reports will continue this trend. Sadly Amtrak is in survival mode and improving F&B service probably isn't close to the forefront of discussions at the company at this time. It's great to brainstorm as we are here about what improvements they can make when the time comes, but until that time comes it just "ain't going to happen."


They are in survival mode because they do not have the customers. So what do they do? They cut back on trains to reduce the chance of having those customers and they serve food bad enough to discourage those they have. How many executives did they furlough since they don't need them all for a reduced operation?


----------



## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> You most likely won't get a very good meal in airline first class right now on a domestic flight. Yes flexible dining came to the eastern trains before the pandemic and it may involve a fight to get back better meals on long distance afterwards depending on what Amtrak does - but its use out west and other F&B cuts Amtrak has made (cuts to all the cafe cars besides Auto Train and to the Acela first meals) are due to the pandemic and are in line with what airlines have done - airlines have made cuts to onboard amenities like Amtrak. I like everyone hope for improvements once we get back to normal, but until that happens and Amtrak gets an idea of what ridership is going to be going forward we're just all going to have to live with what's being offered for the very few actually travelling right now. If you look at the November report the NEC is bleeding money ($70 million in operating losses so far along with the usual capital costs) and state supported and long distance aren't doing much better. I'm sure subsequent reports will continue this trend. Sadly Amtrak is in survival mode and improving F&B service probably isn't close to the forefront of discussions at the company at this time. It's great to brainstorm as we are here about what improvements they can make when the time comes, but until that time
> \comes it just "ain't going to happen."




I have no idea what airlines are doing now. I haven't flown since Covid started. Do you know for a fact that they are serving inferior meals in First? If they are serving any meals at all, why would they have downgraded to something like Amtrak quality meals? Anyway, as you said, Amtrak dropped dining cars before then. Actually the box meals they served then were much better than what they are now serving. You really have missed my point, however. Amtrak MUST serve meals on LD trains. They have chosen to serve very low grade meals. I don't care if they bring back the dining-cars. The food was a lot better than what you get now but it was nothing special. I'd be satisfied with the equivalent of airline First Class quality served in my room. This would be a far more economical solution for Amtrak and I fail to see why they can't manage that right now.


----------



## lordsigma

Ferroequinologist said:


> I have no idea what airlines are doing now. I haven't flown since Covid started. Do you know for a fact that they are serving inferior meals in First? If they are serving any meals at all, why would they have downgraded to something like Amtrak quality meals? Anyway, as you said, Amtrak dropped dining cars before then. Actually the box meals they served then were much better than what they are now serving. You really have missed my point, however. Amtrak MUST serve meals on LD trains. They have chosen to serve very low grade meals. I don't care if they bring back the dining-cars. The food was a lot better than what you get now but it was nothing special. I'd be satisfied with the equivalent of airline First Class quality served in my room. This would be a far more economical solution for Amtrak and I fail to see why they can't manage that right now.


I haven't missed your point. I agree that they need to improve things eventually - while I don't necessarily agree that the flex meals are inedible (I personally can tolerate them at least on a one night journey) - they could certainly be better. I'm just a realist - the few of us taking the risk to ride a train right now are going to have to live with it - and it's not just long distance passengers dealing with inferior food as has been pointed out - I rode a Regional last week to see the new train hall and had a very limited selection in the cafe car - you basically can get a blueberry muffin or jimmy dean sandwich for breakfast (the exact same sandwich and muffin served in flex dining) - and for lunch and dinner a microwave pizza, burger, vegan burger, or hot dog. The rest of it is snacks and junk food. They simply aren't going to make food and beverage improvements in the current climate because no one is riding - survival is basically just running the bare minimum of service to get through the crisis until people start returning. Most airlines domestically from what I've read have either gone to nothing (to discourage removal of masks on board) or to some sort of prepackaged deal or snack box. You may still find a decent meal on a long haul overseas flight depending on the airline, but domestically you're probably out of luck. Once we get to the other side and Amtrak has to start building back up - I agree the F&B on the long distance needs to be improved - the western traditional dining should return and Amtrak should do a little more homework on trying to improve the situation in the east and likewise I hope they bring back fresher choices to the cafes and full meals to Acela 1st. But none of that will happen while cases and hospitalizations are where we are and most states have bans on discretionary travel.


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## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> I haven't missed your point. I agree that they need to improve things eventually - while I don't necessarily agree that the flex meals are inedible (I personally can tolerate them at least on a one night journey) - they could certainly be better. I'm just a realist - the few of us taking the risk to ride a train right now are going to have to live with it - and it's not just long distance passengers dealing with inferior food as has been pointed out - I rode a Regional last week to see the new train hall and had a very limited selection in the cafe car - you basically can get a blueberry muffin or jimmy dean sandwich for breakfast (the exact same sandwich and muffin served in flex dining) - and for lunch and dinner a microwave pizza, burger, vegan burger, or hot dog. The rest of it is snacks and junk food. They simply aren't going to make food and beverage improvements in the current climate because no one is riding - survival is basically just running the bare minimum of service to get through the crisis until people start returning. Most airlines domestically from what I've read have either gone to nothing (to discourage removal of masks on board) or to some sort of prepackaged deal or snack box. You may still find a decent meal on a long haul overseas flight depending on the airline, but domestically you're probably out of luck. Once we get to the other side and Amtrak has to start building back up - I agree the F&B on the long distance needs to be improved - the western traditional dining should return and Amtrak should do a little more homework on trying to improve the situation in the east and likewise I hope they bring back fresher choices to the cafes and full meals to Acela 1st. But none of that will happen while cases and hospitalizations are where we are and most states have bans on discretionary travel.



I did not say that the flex meals are inedible. Like most others here I believe they are very poor quality and unhealthy. I understand the need to reduce the quantity on regional trains but I see no justification for poor quality. Just buy less. Again, I do not know what is happening in airline First Class and you have not come up with any facts. Maybe they have eliminated meals in First Class on long distance routes. I don't know. I don't see, however, how they can do this on trips to Europe etc. Maybe some readers here can tell us based on their experience. No meals in First Class? If there are meals have the airlines dropped the quality to Amtrak standards? Anyway my point is that even during a crisis Amtrak can offer better in-room meals. Restaurants have not dropped their standards due to the crisis, have they? They just serve far fewer people. As for dining-cars, they cost Amtrak too much so the solution is to provide quality room service meals. Why not start now?


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## lordsigma

They could offer better meals sure, but where is the motive to do so right now? As someone who has travelled during the pandemic - very very very few are riding. If Amtrak brought back traditional dining with chefs right now system wide it would have very little impact (if any) on ridership and would simply increase costs. I do have major concerns about the future of passenger rail - but food and beverage is sort of an ancillary thing right now. Business travel has been annihilated by Covid and may never return to what it was with the advent of zoom and other video conferencing. That and other trends established will have major effects. When I see Amtrak with $70 million in operating losses on the northeast corridor on top of its capital costs I fear for the future of all passenger rail. I’m not saying food and beverage doesn’t matter but it’s sort of a little thing in the grand scheme of things right now.


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## Cal

Railspike said:


> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.
> 
> 
> In this Pandemic age, tasty ready-to-eat microwavable entrees are readily available from various sources (meals by mail, grocery stores, and restaurants, etc.). There is no excuse for serving terrible tasting food on Amtrak. Unless of course, that's the goal. They have to know the food they are serving is terrible based on reviews. Is it because of the cost to Amtrak? Wouldn't this be an opportune time to try different recipes or contract an outside supplier?
> 
> I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible.
> 
> 
> With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?



Flex dining was a thing before COVID on eastern routes, if you didn't know. They did it due to cost cutting I believe.


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## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> They could offer better meals sure, but where is the motive to do so right now? As someone who has travelled during the pandemic - very very very few are riding. If Amtrak brought back traditional dining with chefs right now system wide it would have very little impact (if any) on ridership and would simply increase costs. I do have major concerns about the future of passenger rail - but food and beverage is sort of an ancillary thing right now. Business travel has been annihilated by Covid and may never return to what it was with the advent of zoom and other video conferencing. That and other trends established will have major effects. When I see Amtrak with $70 million in operating losses on the northeast corridor on top of its capital costs I fear for the future of all passenger rail. I’m not saying food and beverage doesn’t matter but it’s sort of a little thing in the grand scheme of things right now.



Yes I know food is not a priority now but why does Covid have to be an excuse for not making some improvements? I am not suggesting a return to the dining-car. I think that is gone forever except for some private luxury train operations. I'm just saying that they could improve the quality of in-room meals. Is that such a huge task?


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## Sidney

I have ridden several times over the last year. There are quite a few people riding. I just got off the Texas Eagle. Walking through the Coaches every seat was occupied single travelers with two seats to themselves and families. At lunch in the dining car every table was full,even though there should have been spacing. On an Acela in November every seat pair was used and the sleepers seem full on the last few trains I was on. On the EB last week every roomette in my car was full. Only one bedroom was used. Could have been the outrageous price.




Three days on the Sunset/TE was tough with those flexible meals. I understand we are in this pedemic but there has to be better food,short of full dining to serve to passengers who pay a premium in first class. I had the shrimp in lobster sauce last night. The shrimp were almost inedible.I m now at Chicago Union Station. Having a sub at Jersey Mikes is better than anything on their flex menu.

Again it's called flexible dining. We had to make reservations for lunch and dinner..and it's hardly dining..
and how about something besides their "specialty" dessert..the brownie. Thanks to Anderson for foisting this crap on travelers. Never have I seen such a positive spin on a huge downgrade in food that has had such negative response.


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## IndyLions

… And for the 1000th time, it sucks - but until Covid is over, there will be no change. Even a small, simple change would require retraining their staff, which they would see as costing money. Therefore it won’t happen until after Covid.

The main law that forced them to cut dining services to the bone - which they have implemented very poorly irrespective of cost - has been taken off the books. But for the 1001st time, there’s not much we can do until the pandemic is over.


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## Ferroequinologist

Sidney said:


> I have ridden several times over the last year. There are quite a few people riding. I just got off the Texas Eagle. Walking through the Coaches every seat was occupied single travelers with two seats to themselves and families. At lunch in the dining car every table was full,even though there should have been spacing. On an Acela in November every seat pair was used and the sleepers seem full on the last few trains I was on. On the EB last week every roomette in my car was full. Only one bedroom was used. Could have been the outrageous price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three days on the Sunset/TE was tough with those flexible meals. I understand we are in this pedemic but there has to be better food,short of full dining to serve to passengers who pay a premium in first class. I had the shrimp in lobster sauce last night. The shrimp were almost inedible.I m now at Chicago Union Station. Having a sub at Jersey Mikes is better than anything on their flex menu.
> 
> Again it's called flexible dining. We had to make reservations for lunch and dinner..and it's hardly dining..
> and how about something besides their "specialty" dessert..the brownie. Thanks to Anderson for foisting this crap on travelers. Never have I seen such a positive spin on a huge downgrade in food that has had such negative response.



You had to reserve a seat in the 'dining car' where you were potentially exposed to Covid due to lack of distancing? Did your attendant not offer room service?


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## Ferroequinologist

IndyLions said:


> … And for the 1000th time, it sucks - but until Covid is over, there will be no change. Even a small, simple change would require retraining their staff, which they would see as costing money. Therefore it won’t happen until after Covid.
> 
> The main law that forced them to cut dining services to the bone - which they have implemented very poorly irrespective of cost - has been taken off the books. But for the 1001st time, there’s not much we can do until the pandemic is over.



Why would changing their food purveyor require retraining?


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## IndyLions

Ferroequinologist said:


> Why would changing their food purveyor require retraining?



For an entity as large as Amtrak, every change requires re-training. At least any change significant enough to make a difference.

Another problem with changing vendors now is that they have no volume to offer. There are probably not going to be too many companies who are anxious to start doing business with Amtrak when the volume is so low.

I think the best we can hope for during this Covid timeframe is for them to start designing a new, better food process they can deploy when the timing is right. Now that Mica has been eliminated and they have a more friendly administration, that should be their focus.


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## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Another problem with changing vendors now is that they have no volume to offer.



There is no need to change vendors. They just have to change the order from the current vendor.


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## Sidney

Ferroequinologist said:


> You had to reserve a seat in the 'dining car' where you were potentially exposed to Covid due to lack of distancing? Did your attendant not offer room service?


Yes..room service was offered but I ate in the dining room. Until that meal every other table was being used. This was the first time every table was occupied. I wonder when and if full service dining returns they will sit four to a table. Unless you are traveling with someone four people at the same table was a bit much. Two,across from each other should be the norm,unless you were traveling with someone


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## me_little_me

The excuses:

The staff would need more training - what to handle out a better meal? Sorry, I don't agree that train staff are ignorant.

Mica did it - No, Mica didn't say Amtrak had to pay only a buck for the meals instead of two bucks. Amtrak eliminated the cooks and rest of the dining staff (except for one person) along with their need for rooms (which could then be sold). That alone saved a bundle - far more than the extra buck or two.

Covid did it - No, the cutback was long before Covid was even known to the people in Wuhan. The "flex dining" was spread to the rest of the long distance trains because Amtrak management were too deadheaded to realize that a three day trip with the same 3-4 meals for both lunch and dinner along with the same single dessert was as idiotic an idea as one could come up with or they were determined to use Covid as an excuse to discourage, then dump, the LD trains. Covid also was not the deciding factor for requiring the exact same meals on a whole set of new trains when in fact, if the remaining employee had to be trained to "cook" then hand out food instead of just serving a real meal, they could have been taught how to hand out better food instead.

Amtrak Management is incompetent and uncaring of their customers and their employees - The right answer. How many executives were furloughed?


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## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> There is no need to change vendors. They just have to change the order from the current vendor.


How many times have they changed the specific food items with flex dining? I’m not 100% sure, but it is a bunch.

Do you seriously think that just changing to a different entrée from the same vendor is gonna make any of us any happier? No way. They’re either going to have to change the food they are providing more significantly than that, or change the way they are preparing it.

My bet is either of those changes would be more than they’re prepared to do during the pandemic.


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## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> How many times have they changed the specific food items with flex dining? I’m not 100% sure, but it is a bunch.
> 
> Do you seriously think that just changing to a different entrée from the same vendor is gonna make any of us any happier? No way. They’re either going to have to change the food they are providing more significantly than that, or change the way they are preparing it.
> 
> My bet is either of those changes would be more than they’re prepared to do during the pandemic.



The vendor hasn’t changed since traditional dining has it? 

Was it a different vendor for the salad boxes?


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## tricia

IndyLions said:


> ...
> Do you seriously think that just changing to a different entrée from the same vendor is gonna make any of us any happier? No way. They’re either going to have to change the food they are providing more significantly than that, or change the way they are preparing it.
> ...



Honestly, I'd be much happier if they offered a good quality mac and cheese with the existing side salad, for example. NOT as happy as eating food freshly prepared, but they could do a heckuva lot better just stocking a better array of entrees. And stocking some breakfast possibilites that aren't either loaded with sugar or a greasy hockey puck of a breakfast sandwich. 

None of this would be very costly (might not cost any more, actually--just require the folks choosing what to stock to exercise some competence), nor would it require additional OBS training.


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## Eric in East County

We will be traveling back to Ohio next summer and will be staying in a Drury Inn, which offers (or did offer) a buffet style hot breakfast and a picnic-style dinner along with the usual juices, hot beverages, soft drinks, etc. At this point, we have no idea if, next summer, Drury will be offering hot meals, served ether buffet style or brought to our table. Our room will have a microwave, a small two-cup coffee maker, and a small refrigerator. Faced with a choice of eating a cold complementary brownbag meal or preparing a hot meal in our room, we’ll prepare our own. Which brings us to the question we want to ask. What is Amtrak’s policy about preparing personal food in a sleeping car bedroom? (With the many changes which have been brought about by COVID, perhaps the sleeping car bedrooms of the future will each have its own microwave and coffeemaker.)

Eric & Pat


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## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> The vendor hasn’t changed since traditional dining has it?
> 
> Was it a different vendor for the salad boxes?



Don’t know for sure - but I’m betting there was training involved when they switched from the box system to the “tray” system.



tricia said:


> Honestly, I'd be much happier if they offered a good quality mac and cheese with the existing side salad, for example. NOT as happy as eating food freshly prepared, but they could do a heckuva lot better just stocking a better array of entrees. And stocking some breakfast possibilites that aren't either loaded with sugar or a greasy hockey puck of a breakfast sandwich.
> 
> None of this would be very costly (might not cost any more, actually--just require the folks choosing what to stock to exercise some competence), nor would it require additional OBS training.



All I know is they’ve made lots of changes since the rollout, in many cases making changes that were very similar to what was suggested here - and the reviews here haven’t gotten any better.


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## Sidney

Pretty much all negative reviews of the flex dining offerings on this and every other forum. Obviously,there has been virtually no change since it's inception on the Capitol and Lake Shore Limited two and a half years ago. 

As has been stated here,until this virus is under control and everybody has a vaccination nothing will change. I'm hoping May 21 will be the date full service dining returns. I won't book another journey until then.


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## OBS

IndyLions said:


> Don’t know for sure - but I’m betting there was training involved when they switched from the box system to the “tray” system.
> 
> 
> 
> All I know is they’ve made lots of changes since the rollout, in many cases making changes that were very similar to what was suggested here - and the reviews here haven’t gotten any better.


Unfortunately, most of Amtrak's training, for these types of things, consists of a memo issued by corporate, which may or may not work its way down to the actual employees needing the info....


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## flitcraft

Small changes would make a big difference. Having boxed sandwiches would be an improvement at lunch. Having meal salads with chicken or cheese as a protein for a dinner option would be an improvement. Serving fresh fruit like apples or oranges as a dessert option would be an improvement. Heck, replacing the Fruit Loops with instant unsugared oatmeal would be an improvement and probably a cost savings! How many 6-year-olds are traveling on LD trains these days, anyway?


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## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> determined to use Covid as an excuse to discourage, then dump, the LD trains.


I don’t see a conspiracy targeted at the long distance trains - who honestly are riding long distance trains for the experience right now. People are riding - I am still riding but I wouldn’t want to sit with four strangers in the dining car right now. Something like flex dining makes sense right now - no they aren’t the best prepackaged meals around and they could be better, but I just think Amtrak has far bigger fish to fry before they make any food changes namely getting the trains back to daily and reviving suspended corridors and getting the northeast corridor back into some semblance of sustainability - $70 million+ operating losses on the corridor is simply not sustainable and that’s bad news for the entire company. I think talking about F&B for purposes of planning for the post pandemic future makes sense but to expect them to overhaul the flex dining menu now I just think isn’t realistic - and they have made some recent changes adding an additional entree option that has yet to appear on any of the menus . Auto train is a different story because of the larger amount of people to feed at just a couple meal periods - too much work for just one person in the galley. 

Once again I don’t see a conspiracy I see reducing F&B costs during a pandemic due to lower ridership. I feel like I’m beating a dead horse but Amtrak has cut F&B and eliminated meal options across the board and has cut frequencies on several services (some state supported routes have been 100% suspended since March and look at VIA rail who has suspended their long distance trains outright during the pandemic - would we rather Amtrak take VIA’s approach?) F&B on the favorite northeast corridor has been cut to the bone including the Acela - this is not just singling out of the long distance trains. Yes meals are more important on long distance but who is really riding for the experience right now - yes I’m sure there’s a few but it can’t be that many.


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## lordsigma

flitcraft said:


> Small changes would make a big difference. Having boxed sandwiches would be an improvement at lunch. Having meal salads with chicken or cheese as a protein for a dinner option would be an improvement. Serving fresh fruit like apples or oranges as a dessert option would be an improvement. Heck, replacing the Fruit Loops with instant unsugared oatmeal would be an improvement and probably a cost savings! How many 6-year-olds are traveling on LD trains these days, anyway?


I think this is a good idea post pandemic. I think a big improvement to flex dining would be a sandwich or salad choice at lunch and some better thought to breakfast. Won’t happen with the pandemic still raging as they’ve pretty much cut fresh sandwiches and salads across the board (can’t get them in any of the cafes right now either) but I wish they’d consider this post pandemic.


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## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> I think this is a good idea post pandemic. I think a big improvement to flex dining would be a sandwich or salad choice at lunch and some better thought to breakfast. Won’t happen with the pandemic still raging as they’ve pretty much cut fresh sandwiches and salads across the board (can’t get them in any of the cafes right now either) but I wish they’d consider this post pandemic.



The pandemic is being used as an excuse for a lot of things, not just by Amtrak. Sometimes it's valid but other times it's an excuse. Sorry, but I simply fail to see how Amtrak management is SO busy that they can't make some improvements NOW rather than when the pandemic is over - that could be a long time from now. As for the return of full-service dining, I don't think it will happen ever. Also I don't think a lot of people care these days. Many dislike sitting with strangers anyway. Improve the quality of room service meals as well as improve cafe car offerings.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> I think this is a good idea post pandemic. I think a big improvement to flex dining would be a sandwich or salad choice at lunch and some better thought to breakfast. Won’t happen with the pandemic still raging as they’ve pretty much cut fresh sandwiches and salads across the board (can’t get them in any of the cafes right now either) but I wish they’d consider this post pandemic.


Sandwiches don't _have _to be prepared fresh. There are lots of vending machines in lots of break rooms that have sandwiches prepared and packaged in a catering kitchen. I believe they have a shelf life of several days.

Certainly a pre-made, packaged sandwich is not as desirable as a fresh-made one, but it might be a welcome change for lunch on the train.


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## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> Sandwiches don't _have _to be prepared fresh. There are lots of vending machines in lots of break rooms that have sandwiches prepared and packaged in a catering kitchen. I believe they have a shelf life of several days.
> 
> Certainly a pre-made, packaged sandwich is not as desirable as a fresh-made one, but it might be a welcome change for lunch on the train.



The sandwiches on Amtrak are never really fresh. Lol. 

The “fresh” salads and sandwiches were cut from the cafe menu during the pandemic. Most likely because of the shelf life.


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## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> The sandwiches on Amtrak are never really fresh. Lol.
> 
> The “fresh” salads and sandwiches were cut from the cafe menu during the pandemic. Most likely because of the shelf life.


Why am I not surprised to hear that? That part of the menu always said “fresh selections” or something to that effect but not surprised if they aren’t actually that fresh. Maybe fresh compared to the microwave “hot favorites” or whatever they call it.


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Why am I not surprised to hear that? That part of the menu always said “fresh selections” or something to that effect but not surprised if they aren’t actually that fresh. Maybe fresh compared to the microwave “hot favorites” or whatever they call it.



They were fresh compared to the frozen cheeseburgers and pizzas!


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## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> They were fresh compared to the frozen cheeseburgers and pizzas!


I remember on the Cardinal when the LSA that served as Chef,Server and Bottle Washer for Sleeper passengers, would assemble Sandwiches @ Lunch using Cold cuts,Cheese, and Lettuce and Sliced Tomatoes with your Choice of Mayo or Mustard on Good tasting Bread.

Best tasting Sandwiches I've had on an Amtrak Train, even during the Specially Trained Chef days!


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## lordsigma

My favorite in the regional cafes was the Vermont cheddar Mac and cheese. Sadly cut of course during the pandemic.


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> I remember on the Cardinal when the LSA that served as Chef,Server and Bottle Washer for Sleeper passengers, would assemble Sandwiches @ Lunch using Cold cuts,Cheese, and Lettuce and Sliced Tomatoes with your Choice of Mayo or Mustard on Good tasting Bread.
> 
> Best tasting Sandwiches I've had on an Amtrak Train, even during the Specially Trained Chef days!


It was my experience, after several Cardinal trips, that their cafe attendants often "made lemonade when given lemons", since that train had inferior food long before the rest of the system.


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## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> Another problem with changing vendors now is that they have no volume to offer. There are probably not going to be too many companies who are anxious to start doing business with Amtrak when the volume is so low.


Amtrak volume isn't shrinking in a vacuum and likely carries more weight when vendors are hurting for cash flow.



IndyLions said:


> Do you seriously think that just changing to a different entrée from the same vendor is gonna make any of us any happier? No way.


People are telling us they want new options and the quality has gotten so bad even a minor change could do wonders.



me_little_me said:


> Covid did it - No, the cutback was long before Covid was even known to the people in Wuhan.


Western route cutbacks were done _after_ the pandemic hit.


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## Albi

Eric in East County said:


> Which brings us to the question we want to ask. What is Amtrak’s policy about preparing personal food in a sleeping car bedroom? (With the many changes which have been brought about by COVID, perhaps the sleeping car bedrooms of the future will each have its own microwave and coffeemaker.)
> 
> Eric & Pat



There is only one outlet per roomette, don't know how many outlets a bedroom has. 

I am actually traveling with my tea equipment since you can't get decent tea in America (they all drink coffee).

So I am plugging in a water boiler to brew loose tea, using two caraffes.

That's just an example. Of course you can bring your own foods and drinks to consume in your room.

I have heard Amtrak doesn't like big coolers to be brought aboard, maybe out of fear some young people would start a party or so. So be discreet, bring things in your bags.


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## tricia

Albi said:


> I have heard Amtrak doesn't like big coolers to be brought aboard, maybe out of fear some young people would start a party or so. So be discreet, bring things in your bags.



A really big cooler isn't a practical fit in a roomette. But I bring a smallish cooler with me whenever I travel on Amtrak, and no one has ever indicated disapproval.


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## Devil's Advocate

Albi said:


> I am actually traveling with my tea equipment since you can't get decent tea in America (they all drink coffee).


Only half of us drink coffee and you can find decent tea here if you go to a specialty tea shop. In the past this was difficult without a rental car but today you can use a ride sharing service instead.



Albi said:


> I have heard Amtrak doesn't like big coolers to be brought aboard, maybe out of fear some young people would start a party or so. So be discreet, bring things in your bags.


I believe the main issue is not that it's a cooler so much as it's too big/heavy for the person bringing it to quickly move out of the way. In my experience people can bring what they want so long as doing so does not slow anyone down.


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## caravanman

Albi said:


> There is only one outlet per roomette, don't know how many outlets a bedroom has.
> 
> I am actually traveling with my tea equipment since you can't get decent tea in America (they all drink coffee).
> 
> So I am plugging in a water boiler to brew loose tea, using two caraffes.
> 
> That's just an example. Of course you can bring your own foods and drinks to consume in your room.
> 
> I have heard Amtrak doesn't like big coolers to be brought aboard, maybe out of fear some young people would start a party or so. So be discreet, bring things in your bags.


Being from the UK, I also prefer a cup of "decent tea". Loose leaves is a bit upscale for me, but I bring my low wattage travel kettle, and some PG teabags, my favourite. 
If the Covid Virus remains a big threat, I can't imagine many folk will travel, even in private rooms equipped with microwaves, etc? 
A discrete few beers always helps one to get to sleep...


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## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> Western route cutbacks were done _after_ the pandemic hit.


Yes and Amtrak officially is still advertising traditional dining and saying it will return after the pandemic. Yes many people don’t believe they will follow through, but officially traditional dining will return after the pandemic.


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## jiml

caravanman said:


> Being from the UK, I also prefer a cup of "decent tea".


Canadians are big tea drinkers too, and I can attest that it is certainly possible to get a good "cuppa" in the US. Tea drinking there has grown exponentially over the last few years since they got over that Boston thing in 1773.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> Canadians are big tea drinkers too, and I can attest that it is certainly possible to get a good "cuppa" in the US. Tea drinking there has grown exponentially over the last few years since they got over that Boston thing in 1773.


When my Late Wife first came to the US from Canada, she had her family send her " Good Tea" since we lived in a Small town where Liptons was the only Tea available in those days.( most Southerners drink Iced " Sweet Tea".)

She taught me to appreciate Hot Tea, and while I didnt quit drinking Coffee completely, drink it often.( Of course now it's easy to get stuff from all over by delivery from the various Shopping and Delivery services).


----------



## Willbridge

My parents rode the Pacific Great Eastern a year or two after it reached Prince George. My mother reported that the coffee in Prince George was better than in Vancouver, BC. On their return trip they overheard an older lady with a British accent saying that she was glad to be returning to a city where she could get "a proper cup of tea."


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> People are telling us they want new options and the quality has gotten so bad even a minor change could do wonders.


They’ve made tons of changes since the start of Flex Dining, and I would say the consensus on this board is that very few people were happy after the changes. Why would another change similar to previous ones be received any better?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> They’ve made tons of changes since the start of Flex Dining, and I would say the consensus on this board is that very few people were happy after the changes. Why would another change similar to previous ones be received any better?



Swapping one TV dinner out for another isn’t really a change worth noting. Did Amtrak make tons of changes when they went from pancakes to French toast or Mahi Mahi to Salmon?


----------



## Sidney

A change would be to sandwiches/subs,soup,burgers and full salads. Not to more of the same


----------



## me_little_me

Sidney said:


> A change would be to sandwiches/subs,soup,burgers and full salads. Not to more of the same


And lunch menus that don't just duplicate dinner menus. And a bit of variety on the desserts. And a few more choices of a hot breakfast - and better quality of the microwaved Egg McHorrible.


----------



## IndyLions

me_little_me said:


> And lunch menus that don't just duplicate dinner menus. And a bit of variety on the desserts. And a few more choices of a hot breakfast - and better quality of the microwaved Egg McHorrible.


...and my point for this whole thread has been that until Covid is “over” - they aren’t going to make a single change to food service that anyone in this forum would be happy with.


----------



## johnmiller

IndyLions said:


> ...and my point for this whole thread has been that until Covid is “over” - they aren’t going to make a single change to food service that anyone in this forum would be happy with.



So, we will just continue NOT riding Amtrak. Problem solved.


----------



## caravanman

I am one of those rare passengers that ride trains to get from A to B, rather than for the on board food offerings.
The first time I rode Amtrak, I was surprised to find that meals were included in sleeper fares.
To say that you won't ride a train, rather than bring some healthy and interesting food from home for the journey, may indicate that the issue is not all Amtrak's, methinks...?


----------



## johnmiller

caravanman said:


> I am one of those rare passengers that ride trains to get from A to B, rather than for the on board food offerings.
> The first time I rode Amtrak, I was surprised to find that meals were included in sleeper fares.
> To say that you won't ride a train, rather than bring some healthy and interesting food from home for the journey, may indicate that the issue is not all Amtrak's, methinks...?



Do whatever you want. But, you have zero other choices when you are on the train. And, my journeys are over a number of days each time. Plus, with COVID, you have to give someone a good reason to get onboard. Cutting back on the only food you get for a few days doesn't cut it.


----------



## caravanman

Everyone knows that Amtrak on board food is rubbish... My point is simply that it does not have to be a reason not to ride the train. A little advance creative planning and most of us can bring much better food from home, even on multi day journeys.


----------



## Dustyroad

I have a question for roomette meals. My friend that I travel with has had a heart attach because to much salt causing the muscles around her heart to have spasms. It was very scary for her and she has to be very careful with her salt intake So the Flex Meals will not be wise for her on a two day trip. 
Can someone give me advice for her on how to get the special meals to eat instead of the ''salt loaded flex meals '' ? I know the level of salt in them-wow!!!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

caravanman said:


> I am one of those rare passengers that ride trains to get from A to B, rather than for the on board food offerings.



As do I. If my goal is to get from point A to point B, I will take everything in to consideration when choosing my mode of transit.

That includes cost but also value.


----------



## elaineprescott

Is there any hope for Traditional Dining to come back? The PDF schedules say "Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. _Through May 21, 2021_." Does that mean it might come back after that date? Wishful thinking?


----------



## IndyLions

elaineprescott said:


> Is there any hope for Traditional Dining to come back? The PDF schedules say "Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. _Through May 21, 2021_." Does that mean it might come back after that date? Wishful thinking?



It’s all comes down to timing. Right now there is a friendly administration and a friendly Congress - but the evil COVID has food service on the back burner. It will remain so (my opinion) until furloughed Amtrak employees are all back at their jobs, trains are back to their pre-Covid schedules, and the consensus is that we are on the downhill glide with Covid. When all three of those things happen - I think Amtrak will return western trains to full dining - and take a serious look at the failed experiment that is Flex Dining. What replaces Flex Dining is anyone’s guess - but I’m thinking it will be better than the current implementation but fall short of full dining.

Now if the Covid fight takes too long, and the Republicans succeed in winning back the House and/or Senate in 2022, a lot of other far worse scenarios are on the table. It’s not as crazy as it sounds - it almost always happens that the minority party takes back Congress in the mid-terms following a Presidential election.

There you have it. Two paragraphs of utter speculation. Take it with a boulder-sized grain of salt.

Since this is a Dining thread, there will likely be about 100 others who will offer their speculation as well...


----------



## pennyk

Dustyroad said:


> I have a question for roomette meals. My friend that I travel with has had a heart attach because to much salt causing the muscles around her heart to have spasms. It was very scary for her and she has to be very careful with her salt intake So the Flex Meals will not be wise for her on a two day trip.
> Can someone give me advice for her on how to get the special meals to eat instead of the ''salt loaded flex meals '' ? I know the level of salt in them-wow!!!


I would recommend that your friend phone customer relations and explain her situation to them. However, I think she should be prepared to bring her own food. Most likely even the food in the cafe car may not be suitable for her.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

caravanman said:


> To say that you won't ride a train, rather than bring some healthy and interesting food from home for the journey, may indicate that the issue is not all Amtrak's, methinks...?


Working age passengers must forfeit extra vacation days (in a country that guarantees zero) to ride Amtrak in the best of times. Now we are expected to eat much lower quality meals while paying even more than before for the privilege. Most stations lack easy access to markets or restaurants from which to buy our own fresh meals and based on recent reports we can no longer be assured of enough ice to refill a cooler. This sounds like a legitimate complaint to me.



caravanman said:


> Everyone knows that Amtrak on board food is rubbish...


Some of us also know that it did not used to be and does not _have_ to be this way.


----------



## JC_620

Thinking about doing an upcoming trip from Boston to Maricopa to visit family. That would be the LSL to the Texas Eagle from what I understand. Already thinking about somehow planning my dinners out. 

Albany looks like it has a few nearby decent restaurantswhile #449 attaches to #49. Breakfast in Chicago would be fine. Then on the Texas Eagle portion, we were thinking about trying to get something from that Old Spaghetti Factory in St. Louis provided the train is on time. Next day, maybe trying to get something in either Dallas or Ft. Worth during the layover. Only problem would be keeping the food warm until the night as there are no microwaves available to passengers on board the train ..and we realize that if the train is late, any meal planning is out the window. 

My main question is has anyone ever tried to plan ahead - where the train has a decent layover - grabbed a decent meal for either breakfast, lunch or dinner by either having the food delivered to the station, or maybe even hopping in a cab to a nearby good restaurant? 

Hassle? Yes. But better than eating salt for days on end.


----------



## caravanman

Devil's Advocate said:


> Working age passengers must forfeit extra vacation days (in a country that guarantees zero) to ride Amtrak in the best of times. Now we are expected to eat much lower quality meals while paying even more than before for the privilege. Most stations lack easy access to markets or restaurants from which to buy our own fresh meals and based on recent reports we can no longer be assured of enough ice to refill a cooler. This sounds like a legitimate complaint to me.
> Some of us also know that it did not used to be and does not _have_ to be this way.


It is quite legitimate to complain about most aspects of Amtrak, to be fair! My point is that given the food service is so poor nowadays, it need not stop one from taking a train, if one is prepared to be flexible about bringing nice food from home. I assume the increased fares are "market forces", the bedrock of American culture? 

I have enjoyed lamb shanks, steaks, etc on Amtrak trains, but that was then, not today. I look forward to my next ride, and will simply pack some decent food to my tastes. I can survive a day or two without a hot meal!

As to ordering meals to meet the train, or visiting restaurants en-route, I would say that is a tricky plan, simply due to timekeeping. 
Indian Railways have an app that allows one to order food to be brought to the train at certain stations, I believe it works well. I tend to order from the onboard catering teams who bring a tray of hot food to your seat/berth. 
Just bring some food from home is my suggestion, it won't suit every tummy though!


----------



## Ranke

JC_620 said:


> Thinking about doing an upcoming trip from Boston to Maricopa to visit family. That would be the LSL to the Texas Eagle from what I understand. Already thinking about somehow planning my dinners out.
> 
> Albany looks like it has a few nearby decent restaurantswhile #449 attaches to #49. Breakfast in Chicago would be fine. Then on the Texas Eagle portion, we were thinking about trying to get something from that Old Spaghetti Factory in St. Louis provided the train is on time. Next day, maybe trying to get something in either Dallas or Ft. Worth during the layover. Only problem would be keeping the food warm until the night as there are no microwaves available to passengers on board the train ..and we realize that if the train is late, any meal planning is out the window.
> 
> My main question is has anyone ever tried to plan ahead - where the train has a decent layover - grabbed a decent meal for either breakfast, lunch or dinner by either having the food delivered to the station, or maybe even hopping in a cab to a nearby good restaurant?
> 
> Hassle? Yes. But better than eating salt for days on end.


Actually, the more immediate problem you face in trying to realize this trip, as I found in planning my own, is that the Lake Shore no longer connects same day with the Texas Eagle. The former arrives Chicago Mo/Th/Sa; the latter leaves Tu/Fr/Su.


----------



## Sidney

Spending a night in Chicago is the only alternative. There are several hotels within walking distance of Union Station. All three trains,Lake Shore,Capitol and Cardinal leave the same three days of the week. You can get to Pittsburgh and Buffalo every day. Cleveland,Toledo,South Bend and Chicago can only be reached three days a week. From Chicago to LA,if you are going direct you can alternate between the Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle six days a week.


----------



## fdaley

Ranke said:


> Actually, the more immediate problem you face in trying to realize this trip, as I found in planning my own, is that the Lake Shore no longer connects same day with the Texas Eagle. The former arrives Chicago Mo/Th/Sa; the latter leaves Tu/Fr/Su.



On the plus side, that leaves plenty of time to find a real meal somewhere and to restock one's cooler. Better, you could have breakfast in Chicago, then maybe catch a corridor train to St. Louis and have dinner and spend the night there. Then order a takeout dinner there to take aboard the Eagle when it leaves the next night. And there's always the all-night Denny's in San Antonio for the next night's dinner, though it might be a bit past the normal dinner hour.

Really, if we followed the Richard Anderson vision for long-distance rail service, you'd ideally take eight or nine day trains to get from Boston to Arizona, stopping each night to find your own meals and services. Of course, you could do the same thing driving, but at least if you go by train you wouldn't be stuck behind the wheel for all of those days.


----------



## Barb Stout

JC_620 said:


> Thinking about doing an upcoming trip from Boston to Maricopa to visit family. That would be the LSL to the Texas Eagle from what I understand. Already thinking about somehow planning my dinners out.
> 
> Albany looks like it has a few nearby decent restaurantswhile #449 attaches to #49. Breakfast in Chicago would be fine. Then on the Texas Eagle portion, we were thinking about trying to get something from that Old Spaghetti Factory in St. Louis provided the train is on time. Next day, maybe trying to get something in either Dallas or Ft. Worth during the layover. Only problem would be keeping the food warm until the night as there are no microwaves available to passengers on board the train ..and we realize that if the train is late, any meal planning is out the window.
> 
> My main question is has anyone ever tried to plan ahead - where the train has a decent layover - grabbed a decent meal for either breakfast, lunch or dinner by either having the food delivered to the station, or maybe even hopping in a cab to a nearby good restaurant?
> 
> Hassle? Yes. But better than eating salt for days on end.


In a number of other postings, people have commented on the Burrito Lady in El Paso that sells burritos and similar right by the track, I guess. Apparently, she is usually there, but not always. No one has ever commented on whether the burritos she sells are salty or not, but her food is popular.


----------



## tricia

Barb Stout said:


> In a number of other postings, people have commented on the Burrito Lady in El Paso that sells burritos and similar right by the track, I guess. Apparently, she is usually there, but not always. No one has ever commented on whether the burritos she sells are salty or not, but her food is popular.


They're not super salty tasting but I'm certain they're not low-salt.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Barb Stout said:


> In a number of other postings, people have commented on the Burrito Lady in El Paso that sells burritos and similar right by the track, I guess. Apparently, she is usually there, but not always. No one has ever commented on whether the burritos she sells are salty or not, but her food is popular.


It seemed to vary. Sometimes they were more salty than other trips but still edible. Sometimes the tortilla was kind of soggy but other times it was fine. I have maybe 75% luck with seeing the burrito lady but no guarantees. She does good business and I've often wondered why nobody else shows up with other options. Perhaps she's the only one allowed on the platform. Downtown ELP used to be kind of downtrodden but it has since seen a renaissance of sorts, or at least had before the pandemic. The Sunset often stops long enough for a well timed delivery but sometimes UP will park the train where nobody can reach it just before the station. I'm not sure what delivery services typically do if you're not there to collect the food but I'd imagine they don't wait long.


----------



## niemi24s

FWIW, with seven weeks remaining until the _possible_ return of traditional dining this thread could grow by about 600 posts if the current posting rate is maintained.


----------



## fdaley

niemi24s said:


> FWIW, with seven weeks remaining until the _possible_ return of traditional dining this thread could grow by about 600 posts if the current posting rate is maintained.



And there was another thread called "New Dining Options" that went on for 1,976 posts before we all started discussing it here.


----------



## me_little_me

niemi24s said:


> FWIW, with seven weeks remaining until the _possible_ return of traditional dining this thread could grow by about 600 posts if the current posting rate is maintained.


Kind of like Covid cases? Wonder if there's a vaccine. Lord knows, I could use it for my posts.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Sidney said:


> Spending a night in Chicago is the only alternative. There are several hotels within walking distance of Union Station. All three trains,Lake Shore,Capitol and Cardinal leave the same three days of the week. You can get to Pittsburgh and Buffalo every day. Cleveland,Toledo,South Bend and Chicago can only be reached three days a week. From Chicago to LA,if you are going direct you can alternate between the Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle six days a week.



Actually, you can't get to Pittsburgh every day. Only train between Chicago and Pittsburgh is the Capitol Limited.


----------



## Sidney

You can get to Pittsburgh every day on the Pennsylvanian from New York and Philly. I was saying West of Pittsburgh is only three days a week


----------



## PaTrainFan

Okay, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IndyLions said:


> … And for the 1000th time, it sucks - but until Covid is over, there will be no change. Even a small, simple change would require retraining their staff, which they would see as costing money. Therefore it won’t happen until after Covid.
> 
> The main law that forced them to cut dining services to the bone - which they have implemented very poorly irrespective of cost - has been taken off the books. But for the 1001st time, there’s not much we can do until the pandemic is over.



And to once again emphasize the point... don't travel if you don't have to. It simply makes no sense to put your life at risk for the sake of riding on the train. Wait, be patient, stay safe, wear your mask, wash your hands... and be ever so grateful that you don't have COVID... that will soon have taken the lives of 500,000 Americans.

Safe, alive, and healthy... you are living the dream!


----------



## me_little_me

And get your vaccine!


----------



## Qapla

There are several trips I would like to make - now that I have the time. However, as much as I would like to ... no way I am booking a trip tp anywhere.

Stay safe people ... stay positive - and *test negative*


----------



## niemi24s

fdaley said:


> And there was another thread called "New Dining Options" that went on for 1,976 posts before we all started discussing it here.


1976 + 339 = 2315. Not bad. Keep up the good work.


----------



## JC_620

fdaley said:


> On the plus side, that leaves plenty of time to find a real meal somewhere and to restock one's cooler. Better, you could have breakfast in Chicago, then maybe catch a corridor train to St. Louis and have dinner and spend the night there. Then order a takeout dinner there to take aboard the Eagle when it leaves the next night. And there's always the all-night Denny's in San Antonio for the next night's dinner, though it might be a bit past the normal dinner hour.
> 
> Really, if we followed the Richard Anderson vision for long-distance rail service, you'd ideally take eight or nine day trains to get from Boston to Arizona, stopping each night to find your own meals and services. Of course, you could do the same thing driving, but at least if you go by train you wouldn't be stuck behind the wheel for all of those days.


Unfortunately the problem is that the only 2 corridor trains are in the AM, and the PM. The one in the AM departs at 9:25AM, before the LSL arrives into Chicago and that is if it is even on time to begin with, and the PM one would npt arrive into STL until after midnight. Yikes!


----------



## jloewen

caravanman said:


> It is quite legitimate to complain about most aspects of Amtrak, to be fair! My point is that given the food service is so poor nowadays, it need not stop one from taking a train, if one is prepared to be flexible about bringing nice food from home. I assume the increased fares are "market forces", the bedrock of American culture?
> 
> I have enjoyed lamb shanks, steaks, etc on Amtrak trains, but that was then, not today. I look forward to my next ride, and will simply pack some decent food to my tastes. I can survive a day or two without a hot meal!
> 
> As to ordering meals to meet the train, or visiting restaurants en-route, I would say that is a tricky plan, simply due to timekeeping.
> Indian Railways have an app that allows one to order food to be brought to the train at certain stations, I believe it works well. I tend to order from the onboard catering teams who bring a tray of hot food to your seat/berth.
> Just bring some food from home is my suggestion, it won't suit every tummy though!


North Korean trains serve no food. You have to bring it on board with you. Here is a fascinating account of a trip ... the ONLY trip possible for Westerners ... recently taken from Pyongyang to the Chinese border. Take a train through North Korea's rarely seen countryside


----------



## 20th Century Rider

caravanman said:


> It is quite legitimate to complain about most aspects of Amtrak, to be fair! My point is that given the food service is so poor nowadays, it need not stop one from taking a train, if one is prepared to be flexible about bringing nice food from home. I assume the increased fares are "market forces", the bedrock of American culture?
> 
> I have enjoyed lamb shanks, steaks, etc on Amtrak trains, but that was then, not today. I look forward to my next ride, and will simply pack some decent food to my tastes. I can survive a day or two without a hot meal!
> 
> As to ordering meals to meet the train, or visiting restaurants en-route, I would say that is a tricky plan, simply due to timekeeping.
> Indian Railways have an app that allows one to order food to be brought to the train at certain stations, I believe it works well. I tend to order from the onboard catering teams who bring a tray of hot food to your seat/berth.
> Just bring some food from home is my suggestion, it won't suit every tummy though!



Enjoyed your post... and agree that the food sham shouldn't deter one from an Amtrak trip. 

Food can be picked up at major stations ... such as Pret a Manger in Chicago and stations in the east; rated highly with low fat low sodium but rich in taste and texture.

The big challenge is for those longer 3 day 2 night trips in the west... or the 4 day 3 night journey on the Texas Eagle. Peanut butter and jelly on crackers; salami and cheese... are some of the most durable foods to survive a long journey. Here are some ideas seen around the internet with great suggestions!

Remember... it is an Amtrak policy to provide hot water if requested in the cafe... they will also provide ice... COVID may cause temporary changes... and 'attendant attitudes' vary as well. 









Food to Bring on an Amtrak Trip - Eat Like No One Else


A list of food/snacks to bring aboard on Amtrak train trip. Learn what food you can bring on a train trip and what food is availale on the train itself.




www.eatlikenoone.com













33 Hours on Amtrak - Cheap Travel or Cheap Torture?


How we prepped for, endured, and returned from a 33 hour Amtrak trip.




ditchingsuburbia.com


----------



## Ferroequinologist

fdaley said:


> On the plus side, that leaves plenty of time to find a real meal somewhere and to restock one's cooler. Better, you could have breakfast in Chicago, then maybe catch a corridor train to St. Louis and have dinner and spend the night there. Then order a takeout dinner there to take aboard the Eagle when it leaves the next night. And there's always the all-night Denny's in San Antonio for the next night's dinner, though it might be a bit past the normal dinner hour.
> 
> Really, if we followed the Richard Anderson vision for long-distance rail service, you'd ideally take eight or nine day trains to get from Boston to Arizona, stopping each night to find your own meals and services. Of course, you could do the same thing driving, but at least if you go by train you wouldn't be stuck behind the wheel for all of those days.


I suspect Mr Anderson's idea was to eliminate LD altogether!
Re food in Chicago: Have they opened Chicago restaurants? I cancelled a trip a few months ago. At that time there were no restaurants open, just take out.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> I suspect Mr Anderson's idea was to eliminate LD altogether!
> Re food in Chicago: Have they opened Chicago restaurants? I cancelled a trip a few months ago. At that time there were no restaurants open, just take out.


Sadly I just saw that Pret a manger at Chicago Union Station is not open... hoping they will come back after the pandemic.

But no one should attempt discretionary travel now with the more contagious variants of COVID surfacing. We should all be patient... follow all directives from the CDC, and hope the vaccines will become available soon...


----------



## Trogdor

Ferroequinologist said:


> I suspect Mr Anderson's idea was to eliminate LD altogether!
> Re food in Chicago: Have they opened Chicago restaurants? I cancelled a trip a few months ago. At that time there were no restaurants open, just take out.



Indoor dining is supposedly returning (lots of confusing and conflicting information out there), but at very restricted capacity. But lots of places are closed down, either long-term or permanently. I’m in agreement that it’s really just not advisable to travel right now. Then you don’t have to worry at all about what food you’ll need to find while on the road.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Trogdor said:


> Indoor dining is supposedly returning (lots of confusing and conflicting information out there), but at very restricted capacity. But lots of places are closed down, either long-term or permanently. I’m in agreement that it’s really just not advisable to travel right now. Then you don’t have to worry at all about what food you’ll need to find while on the road.



I just read that even after that 2nd shot care needs to be taken as one can become a 'carrier' and not know it. Hard to imagine it is possible to take the life of a person at risk. And not even know it!!!

Please do re read the above. Really scary stuff.

Now is the time to be extremely considerate of others. I am absolutely awe struck at the fragility of life during this pandemic.

There was never a more important time in history... that I can remember... when consideration for others has become so important.

Consideration, patience, diligence, and responsibility... means everything right now.



https://travel.usnews.com/features/is-it-safe-to-travel-how-to-vacation-safely-during-the-covid-19-pandemic


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> I just read that even after that 2nd shot care needs to be taken as one can become a 'carrier' and not know it. Hard to imagine it is possible to take the life of a person at risk. And not even know it!!!
> 
> Please do re read the above. Really scary stuff.
> 
> Now is the time to be extremely considerate of others. I am absolutely awe struck at the fragility of life during this pandemic.
> 
> There was never a more important time in history... that I can remember... when consideration for others has become so important.
> 
> Consideration, patience, diligence, and responsibility... means everything right now.



I can add a few more:

Lowest Risk
Taking a solo spaceflight to Mars
Following a ship of the Swiss Navy in your personal submarine.
Taking a walk along the Jornada del Muerto in New Mexico
Not inhaling
Moving to Death Valley
Consensual Sexting - unless you're a congressional candidate

Low Risk
Looking at a "flex meal"
Smoking marijuana but "not inhaling"
Traveling in a room on Amtrak and having a sign on your door that says "No flex meals please".

Medium Risk
Having a small taste of a "flex meal"
Cursing at the conductor
Asking a fellow Amtrak passenger from [you know what state] if the woman beside him is his sister, his wife or both.

High Risk
Eating a "flex meal"
Being a diabetic and stuffing yourself at on the current Amtrak breakfasts.
Meeting starving friends at Donner Pass
Supporting Trump your whole life then telling him you have a minor disagreement with him on an issue.
Telling the conductor he/she reminds you of "flex meals"


----------



## Michigan Mom

pennyk said:


> I would recommend that your friend phone customer relations and explain her situation to them. However, I think she should be prepared to bring her own food. Most likely even the food in the cafe car may not be suitable for her.



Most any processed food prepped by most any food service, is going to contain high levels of sodium. Best bet is to bring your own meals as Penny said.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> You’re tired of the choice between brownie and brownie? Shocking.  haha


Which brownie are you talking about? This one? That one? If you look extremely carefully you can see inconstancies of the arrangement of the crumbs!

Don't say I didn't tell ya... that's the way the 'brownie' crumbles!  
So which one will you choose???


----------



## Qapla

Number 9 looks like a good one


----------



## Sidney

I love Amtrak's description of the brownie..a specialty dessert. How about cheesecake? Isn't there any refrigeration? I usually skip the brownie.


----------



## Manny T

Haven't ridden for a while. Wasn't the choice between a brownie and a blondie, or did they ditch the blondie?



jloewen said:


> North Korean trains serve no food.



Why doesn't that surprise me?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> Number 9 looks like a good one


Really disappointed I asked and didn't get the 9th one... the attendant gave me the wrong one!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Manny T said:


> Haven't ridden for a while. Wasn't the choice between a brownie and a blondie, or did they ditch the blondie?


Um... the main difference is that one is a brownie and the other is a blondie. We should all be experts on the dessert offerings by now!


----------



## Qapla

20th Century Rider said:


> Really disappointed I asked and didn't get the 9th one... the attendant gave me the wrong one!



That's because that's not the 9th one


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> That's because that's not the 9th one


OMG... I do stand corrected. It was actually the 10th one. With all the brownies going on I should be an expert by now... looks like I'l be counting brownies in my sleep!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Manny T said:


> Haven't ridden for a while. Wasn't the choice between a brownie and a blondie, or did they ditch the blondie?



I rode the Meteor the first week of the flex menu and wasn’t offered a choice. I think the brownie and the blondie are the same thing. Which really sounds bad unless you know we are talking about Amtrak desserts.... another brilliant Amtrak marketing move!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> I love Amtrak's description of the brownie..a specialty dessert. How about cheesecake? Isn't there any refrigeration? I usually skip the brownie.



Of course there’s refrigerators and freezers, it’s the same viewliner and superliner diners that were able to serve ice cream, cheesecake, chocolate mousse, lemon tarts, vanilla pudding, etc. 

*cue the typical “blame covid” or “blame politics” or “nobody rides the train for the food” responses.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Of course there’s refrigerators and freezers, it’s the same viewliner and superliner diners that were able to serve ice cream, cheesecake, chocolate mousse, lemon tarts, vanilla pudding, etc.
> 
> *cue the typical “blame covid” or “blame politics” or “nobody rides the train for the food” responses.



No No No No! The brownie dessert is truly their speciality! 

They get to say they're serving you a gourmet brownie and it only costs them a few cents! 

Better than that, you get to indulge for lunch and dinner every day of your cross country sojourn. Consider yourself lucky to have this amazing brownie almost ten times when you cross the country,

You get to choose between the toffee blond brownie or the amazing chocolate brownie... every day for lunch and dinner.

Why would anyone want to eat anything other than a brownie for dessert???

Yum-o!


----------



## Qapla

20th Century Rider said:


> OMG... I do stand corrected. It was actually the 10th one



Nope - you started counting from the wrong end


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> Nope - you started counting from the wrong end



This endless conversation has ended.


----------



## Qapla

Sounds good to me 


At least we had a little fun with the ever-exciting flex-dining


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I rode the Meteor the first week of the flex menu and wasn’t offered a choice. I think the brownie and the blondie are the same thing. Which really sounds bad unless you know we are talking about Amtrak desserts.... another brilliant Amtrak marketing move!


They are the same thing. Both contain chocolate except for the Blondie.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> This endless conversation has ended.


I want one dated 7-23-20, please.


----------



## Palmetto

me_little_me said:


> They are the same thing. Both contain chocolate except for the Blondie.



Then how can they be the same thing?!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> They are the same thing. Both contain chocolate except for the Blondie.



The blondie contains chocolate.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> The blondie contains chocolate.


Blonde chocolate?

No Blonde jokes please. Not allowed on this forum.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Blonde chocolate?
> 
> No Blonde jokes please. Not allowed on this forum.



The description on the manufacturers website -
“Caramelized, dense and chewy butterscotch brownie stuffed with milk and semisweet chocolate chunks and scattered with crunchy, buttery toffee.”

So it’s still a brownie, just a different flavor than an all chocolate brownie.


----------



## PVD

Dakota 400 said:


> In some places. chicken and waffles is a popular breakfast entree.


McDonalds has chicken on a biscuit and a hash brown as a $3 combo right now....


----------



## Palmland

How hard would it be for Amtrak to bring this dessert? On line it’s $5.39 for a 10 count pack and a very sanitary way to deliver dessert. So much better than their current unappetizing offering.


----------



## PVD

They used to have ice cream cups if I recall. Nothing is particularly hard, you have to want to do it....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Anything is possible... let's get through the pandemic first. And no one should be traveling now with all the dangerous variants. Just stay safe and healthy. 

In the hierarchy of things right now, what they're serving for dessert on the train during this COVID emergency is kind-a insignificant. It's all about your health!


----------



## Sidney

They have refrigeration. I am so sick of that brownie. Ice cream,cheesecake. Why won't they expand the dessert offerings? Such a simple thing would make sleeper passengers happy. It has nothing to do with Covid. Guess they just don't care.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> They used to have ice cream cups if I recall. Nothing is particularly hard, you have to want to do it....



They did. Multiple flavors of Haagan Daz. Usually 1 non-dairy sorbet option as well. 

Sleeper passengers could order any dessert al a mode and get ice cream in addition to a cake / pie.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

They downgraded from Haagen Dazs to Blue Bunny long before the pandemic. This brownie vs. brownie chapter has little or nothing to do with the pandemic. A phone call to Aramark could fix it, but someone has to make the call first.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Haagen Dazs? Time to think big with the $unday Night Taste Teaser!

At $18,000 to fly from LHR to Dubai on Emirates 1st Class... there are more problems than you can imagine! You are literally paying thousands for each hour of travel.

When you consider that your stomach is only the size of a fist, how will you eat enough to justify the cost? And if you drink and get drunk, you won't be alert to enjoy the flawless caviar service!

If you fall asleep and miss a few hours, then you've wasted additional thousands just to sleep!

I'll bet you'll be wishing you were lulling along on an Amtrak LD train enjoying your flex meal, lettuce and cherry tomato salad... and most importantly, that incredible brownie! 

But the best part is that you didn't spend $18,000 for a 6 hour trip!!!


----------



## lordsigma

I got the choice of blonde or brownie last trip. They weren’t awful if I recall - ok for a prepackaged dessert but nothing to write home about.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> At $18,000 to fly from LHR to Dubai on Emirates 1st Class... there are more problems than you can imagine! You are literally paying thousands for each hour of travel.


Emirates does not compete with Amtrak in any manner I can comprehend. By the time you're paying $18,000 for a domestic flight you can probably charter a private aircraft with whatever catering you need (if you live in a larger city).



20th Century Rider said:


> If you fall asleep and miss a few hours, then you've wasted additional thousands just to sleep!


Half the reason I book a premium cabin is to make sleeping more comfortable. Same on Amtrak as on airlines.



20th Century Rider said:


> When you consider that your stomach is only the size of a fist, how will you eat enough to justify the cost? And if you drink and get drunk, you won't be alert to enjoy the flawless caviar service!


I'm not a fan of caviar but I can drink a grand or two worth of Krug or Dom.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Emirates does not compete with Amtrak in any manner I can comprehend. By the time you're paying $18,000 for a domestic flight you can probably charter a private aircraft with whatever catering you need (if you live in a larger city).
> 
> 
> Half the reason I book a premium cabin is to make sleeping more comfortable. Same on Amtrak as on airlines.
> 
> 
> I'm not a fan of caviar but I can drink a grand or two worth of Krug or Dom.


Comparatively speaking... and personally for my own comparatively modest tastes... I'll take whatever Amtrak offers for their roomette accommodation and splurge a little with some little fancy bits and pieces to take on board with me... to make it a truly enhanced $18,000 experience for only a fraction of the cost. "It just doesn't take that much to get that millionaire rush for this retired school teacher!


----------



## Qapla

People keep mentioning cheese cake ... why would they want to stock that for a desert? I see no reason for them to get rid of the brownie in favor of cheese cake. Can't they find something much, much better? After all, I don't like cheese cake.

The thing is, no matter what they do - there will be some who like it and some who don't like it - except for the flex-dining that no one seems to like.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Qapla said:


> People keep mentioning cheese cake ... why would they want to stock that for a desert? I see no reason for them to get rid of the brownie in favor of cheese cake. Can't they find something much, much better? After all, I don't like cheese cake.
> 
> The thing is, no matter what they do - there will be some who like it and some who don't like it - except for the flex-dining that no one seems to like.


Did you ever eat the Chocolate Bundt Cake or the Bourbon Pecan Pie in the Diner?Best Amtrak deserts Ever!( and I liked the New York Style Cheese Cake they served before the So called Cheescake in a Cup was substituted)


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> Did you ever eat the Chocolate Bundt Cake or the Bourbon Pecan Pie in the Diner?Best Amtrak deserts Ever!( and I like New York Style Cheese Ca)ke!


You are making me hungry Jim. I do recall your encouraging me to try the Bourbon Pecan Pie and I was very happy about it. I like the bundt cake also, but I am not a fan of the cheese cake. I was told that storing the ice cream was not practical since it would often un-freeze, then re-freeze.
I think the brownie is pretty decent for a packaged dessert. 
Frankly, very few of us should be eating sugar-laden desserts.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Did you ever eat the Chocolate Bundt Cake or the Bourbon Pecan Pie in the Diner?Best Amtrak deserts Ever!( and I liked the New York Style Cheese Cake they served before the So called Cheescake in a Cup was substituted)


All that stuff was so sweet but very good. I would just let that dessert go but enjoy the steak and fish cake with baked potato and sour cream... mmm... sounds so good right now... hope that will find it's way back. Never appreciated it enough when it was available!


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> All that stuff was so sweet but very good. I would just let that dessert go but enjoy the steak and fish cake with baked potato and sour cream... mmm... sounds so good right now... hope that will find it's way back. Never appreciated it enough when it was available!


Ditto, and remember when each LD Train had Route Specific entrees like Cajun, BBQ, Mexican, Catfish, Salmon,Crab Cakes etc and Regional Wines and Cheeses on the the Starlight and Builder?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> People keep mentioning cheese cake ... why would they want to stock that for a desert? I see no reason for them to get rid of the brownie in favor of cheese cake. Can't they find something much, much better? After all, I don't like cheese cake.
> 
> The thing is, no matter what they do - there will be some who like it and some who don't like it - except for the flex-dining that no one seems to like.



Well... there used to be a menu with multiple options. Cheesecake, ice cream, sorbet (dairy free), vanilla pudding (gluten free), and other specialities. 

That way you could order the brownie (or similar chocolate dessert) and I could order the cheesecake and we could both be happy!


----------



## Willbridge

me_little_me said:


> Blonde chocolate?
> 
> No Blonde jokes please. Not allowed on this forum.


Blonde? That was the server in the Russian dining car who offered to sit down and split a bottle of wine with me if I would order it. She didn't make the sale.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> Did you ever eat the Chocolate Bundt Cake or the Bourbon Pecan Pie in the Diner?Best Amtrak deserts Ever!( and I liked the New York Style Cheese Cake they served before the So called Cheescake in a Cup was substituted)



My favorite was the chocolate mousse... here’s a photo I found from when one of my trips on the Starlight.. was dated 2013. I remember ordering it many times.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Qapla said:


> People keep mentioning cheese cake ... why would they want to stock that for a desert? I see no reason for them to get rid of the brownie in favor of cheese cake. [...] After all, I don't like cheese cake.


I'm picky about food quality and I found Amtrak's cheesecake to range from acceptable to good over the course of many years. The texture and flavor were generally pleasing with unrequested low quality toppings being the most common letdown. In the case of some trips the cheesecake was the best part of the meal (especially toward the end). If we can only have one dessert it is much easier to pack your own vending machine brownie than a refrigerated cheesecake with ice and utensils. If it were up to me I would probably ask them to stock something like (_Gateau) Mille Crepe _but we all have to make sacrifices and cheesecake is a good middle ground that holds up well.














Gâteau de Crêpes Recipe


This recipe is by Amanda Hesser and takes 3 hours 30 minutes, plus overnight refrigeration. Tell us what you think of it at The New York Times - Dining - Food.




cooking.nytimes.com


----------



## railiner

I would be happy to get one of those packaged blueberry muffins from the Cafe for dessert....


----------



## AFS1970

One of my train related pastimes is watching Amtrak (and other trains) videos on YouTube. Lately I have noticed several that spoke well of the flex dining. I can't imagine they all had never had anything better. At one point I was beginning to wonder if the videos were being subsidized by Amtrak in return for a favorable review. I am confused, as at least one of the couples featured was old enough to remember real food on the train.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I've never heard of Amtrak subsidizing independent bloggers... although it recently had a program that provided free travel for bloggers it sponsors. Here is where there may be positive statements regarding the blatantly miserable flex mess.

Listed below are independently sponsored blog reviews... clearly registering discontent with the present Amtrak service [some reviews pre-date COVID]:






Top 1,131 Amtrak Reviews


No compliance with Americans with Disability Act - I will be obtaining legal rep against Amtrak for complete disregard for customers with disabilities with stations and assistance on and off ...




www.consumeraffairs.com













Amtrak is rated "Bad" with 1.7 / 5 on Trustpilot


Do you agree with Amtrak's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 428 customers have already said.




www.trustpilot.com













Honest Amtrak Review: 7 Things To Expect » Writing From Nowhere


The sustainable alternative to flying that you've been looking for: the TRAIN! This honest Amtrak review will tell you what to expect on your train trip




writingfromnowhere.com





Here is information on the Amtrak sponsored 'Amtrak Residency Program'









#AmtrakTakeMeThere Social Media Residency


The #AmtrakTakeMeThere Social Media Residency aims to showcase how people from different walks of life travel by rail.




www.amtrak.com


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> When you consider that your stomach is only the size of a fist, how will you eat enough to justify the cost?



Your post reminded me of my experience in Business Class on a Singapore Airlines flight from Singapore-Hong Kong-San Francisco. (Didn't cost anywhere near $18,000.) Dinner after leaving Singapore, Supper after leaving Hong Kong (well after Midnight when I was ready to sleep), then breakfast prior to arrival in San Francisco (which was early evening there). Ate my pre-ordered dinner; delicious. Supper time arrived: I remained "full" from dinner and told my flight attendant that all I wanted was a couple of items on their alternate menu and cancelled my pre-ordered Supper. 

Because I was so "full", that did not help me to have a restful sleep.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AFS1970 said:


> One of my train related pastimes is watching Amtrak (and other trains) videos on YouTube. Lately I have noticed several that spoke well of the flex dining. I can't imagine they all had never had anything better. At one point I was beginning to wonder if the videos were being subsidized by Amtrak in return for a favorable review. I am confused, as at least one of the couples featured was old enough to remember real food on the train.


I've noticed that the pro-flex people often focus on factors other than food quality and gloss over their meals with vague euphemisms that say little and could apply to almost anything. Meanwhile the anti-flex folks typically have little problem spending their time telling and showing us precisely what was wrong with their food in plenty of detail. Although not perfectly correlated these distinctions are strongly associated with honest and dishonest behavior.


----------



## TrackWalker

The best pizza I every ate on Amtrak was whilest on the Westbound Empire Builder. (of course I had phoned ahead to the Domino's in Havre, MT (fueling stop) and it was waiting at the platform for me when we arrived.)


----------



## cirdan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Emirates does not compete with Amtrak in any manner I can comprehend. By the time you're paying $18,000 for a domestic flight you can probably charter a private aircraft with whatever catering you need (if you live in a larger city).



You can travel in private varnish for a lot less than that.

And that I think is the most civilized and exquisite way of travelling that I can imagine.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> Your post reminded me of my experience in Business Class on a Singapore Airlines flight from Singapore-Hong Kong-San Francisco. (Didn't cost anywhere near $18,000.) Dinner after leaving Singapore, Supper after leaving Hong Kong (well after Midnight when I was ready to sleep), then breakfast prior to arrival in San Francisco (which was early evening there). Ate my pre-ordered dinner; delicious. Supper time arrived: I remained "full" from dinner and told my flight attendant that all I wanted was a couple of items on their alternate menu and cancelled my pre-ordered Supper.
> 
> Because I was so "full", that did not help me to have a restful sleep.


They certainly feed you high quality food in large amounts on SQ... one of the problems is that your crossing so many time zones so you have jet lag complicating meal times / snacks / within a relatively short amount of time. On the train, you have much more time.

All that said, the original dining that came with sleeper accommodations also provided too much food... who can sit all day and eat three large meals... for three days in a row? 

With the flex concept... now that's food extremism at its worst.

Food... when traveling 1st class on the train... should be of a high quality with enough so one doesn't get hungry... and can enjoy it.

Some of us in advancing age wish there were better options for food choices; and that you paid for what you wanted... as in... lowering the cost of the fare and include a nice breakfast [only] as in the B and B concept; after that pay for what best suites you at other times of the day.

But don't be quick to start criticizing the B & B idea as it probably won't happen. 

Let's concentrate comments / efforts / hopes / on getting past the pandemic... and 'getting back on track' with passenger rail in America!


----------



## Sidney

It's called "flexible dining" which is supposed to mean you can eat at your leisure. I ve been on several trains in the last year and I've had to make a specific reservation every time. The "dining" part is hardly what we had when full service dining existed.


----------



## Sauve850

Bob Dylan said:


> Did you ever eat the Chocolate Bundt Cake or the Bourbon Pecan Pie in the Diner?Best Amtrak deserts Ever!( and I liked the New York Style Cheese Cake they served before the So called Cheescake in a Cup was substituted)



All three were so good. I would slow down and just pick at dinner to still remain hungry for the desserts.


----------



## tim49424

I’m not sure why most people are down on Amtrak serving Cheesecake. If they could turn back the clock about a decade, in my opinion, the cheesecake was to die for. My first LD trip on the Empire Builder in May, 2012 was the best I’ve had anywhere. It was an orange cheesecake that I inhaled, I liked it so much! I went from Tomah to Portland and that was my go to dessert on that trip. They had an Oreo cheesecake on the return trip that wasn’t as good but the bar was set high for me. Of course, nowadays with the flex dining, which I’ve had on a couple of trips out East, I had the usual choice between the brownie and blondie, both of which I like but a far stretch from the cheesecake.


----------



## Mailliw

Under normal, non-pandemic, circumstances Amtrak should be able to provide meals of comparable quality to long-haul airline business (or even premium economy) class. Or First Class Acela dining considering sleeper are also considered First Class travel.


----------



## jiml

tim49424 said:


> I’m not sure why most people are down on Amtrak serving Cheesecake. If they could turn back the clock about a decade, in my opinion, the cheesecake was to die for. My first LD trip on the Empire Builder in May, 2012 was the best I’ve had anywhere. It was an orange cheesecake that I inhaled, I liked it so much! I went from Tomah to Portland and that was my go to dessert on that trip. They had an Oreo cheesecake on the return trip that wasn’t as good but the bar was set high for me. Of course, nowadays with the flex dining, which I’ve had on a couple of trips out East, I had the usual choice between the brownie and blondie, both of which I like but a far stretch from the cheesecake.


At one point they had genuine Eli's Chicago cheesecake, which was pretty good.


----------



## tim49424

jiml said:


> At one point they had genuine Eli's Chicago cheesecake, which was pretty good.



That was probably before my Amtrak time.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> All that said, the original dining that came with sleeper accommodations also provided too much food... who can sit all day and eat three large meals... for three days in a row?


Nobody says you have to eat three large meals.

We would tell the server what not to bring. Lunch was often the salad. We would sometimes share a meal and/or share a dessert. Sometimes eat the burger without the bread and no sides. Sometimes we'd take that lunch dessert back to the room for later because we'd leave the train before dinner and have to drive somewhere and didn't know if we'd have a chance to eat big or small.

And not all trips are three days in a row. In fact on all my trips, there was no 3-day train and always a downtime between trains when we would skip a meal or have something really light.

The point is, if I get on before dinner, I would have planned ahead and not eaten so much during the day. If I got on before lunch and knew I wasn't that hungry, I'd eat the salad. If I made breakfast, I might be off the train before lunch or I'd skip the breakfast croissant and meat and just have eggs plain. If I made 3 meals in a single day, I'd pick and choose. I could even pick a child's meal in many cases.

Moreover, at all meals I could eat carb free, or sugar free, or just the greens, or whatever, and still have a filling meal by not having them give me what I didn't want. So the crew could make meals out of the unserved food. Now, they can't make meals out of the garbage just dumped or the half-eaten "beef and garbage".


----------



## Qapla

tim49424 said:


> I’m not sure why most people are down on Amtrak serving Cheesecake ..... in my opinion, the cheesecake was to die



That's just it - We all have our own opinions based on our likes and dislikes In my opinion, cheesecake is overrated ... since I do not like it. I would prefer a good angel food cake or blueberry pie made with real sugar (seems everyone want to sell blueberry pie made with NutraSweet)

I will say, even though I like brownies, I would not want to eat them with every meal.


----------



## bms

My first time in a Sleeper wasn't until 2018 in the Zephyr, and I feel like I had real cheesecake? They definitely still had the crab cake and steak dinner, which was wonderful.


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> My first time in a Sleeper wasn't until 2018 in the Zephyr, and I feel like I had real cheesecake?



By that time, it was barely a couple of bites with something drizzled on it (raspberry sauce, I think?).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> It's called "flexible dining" which is supposed to mean you can eat at your leisure. I ve been on several trains in the last year and I've had to make a specific reservation every time. The "dining" part is hardly what we had when full service dining existed.


"Flexible Dining" is blatant extremism when it comes to a concept gone wrong. ☹


----------



## Manny T

20th Century Rider said:


> "Flexible Dining" is blatant extremism when it comes to a concept gone wrong.



My guess is Amtrak's implementation of flexible "dining" and its related touting of the concept as new and "improved" are being studied by some enterprising MBA student and/or PhD candidate as the basis for a thesis, and it will be taught in business schools for generations to come as a perfect model for what not to do. Never has any corporate concept been so completely wrong (not Edsel, not New Coke, etc. imho).

I for one will nominate Amtrak's Flexible dining for inclusion in the *Museum of Failures,* "a collection of failed products and services from around the world. The ... museum showcases these failures to provide visitors a fascinating learning experience. Every item provides unique insight into the risky business of innovation." Museum of Failure

Please feel free to second my nomination. "For ... suggestions for new exhibits please contact: [email protected] "


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Manny T said:


> My guess is Amtrak's implementation of flexible "dining" and its related touting of the concept as new and "improved" are being studied by some enterprising MBA student and/or PhD candidate as the basis for a thesis, and it will be taught in business schools for generations to come as a perfect model for what not to do. Never has any corporate concept been so completely wrong (not Edsel, not New Coke, etc. imho).
> 
> I for one will nominate Amtrak's Flexible dining for inclusion in the *Museum of Failures,* "a collection of failed products and services from around the world. The ... museum showcases these failures to provide visitors a fascinating learning experience. Every item provides unique insight into the risky business of innovation." Museum of Failure
> 
> Please feel free to second my nomination. "For ... suggestions for new exhibits please contact: [email protected] "


What has me most concerned is the total lack of reaction of Amtrak towards this immense show of disappointment and anger towards the catastrophically poor change in dining concept aboard Amtrak trains; which went into effect on the Eastern routes long before COVID.

Amtrak's lack of response of any kind shows it is poorly managed and just doesn't care about the people it serves. The United States appears to be united in its opinions of this food blunder. Is Amtrak really to be considered a service for the taxpaying citizens its supposed to be serving???


----------



## Sidney

I've been on several train rides during the past year and I paid low bucket for each one. I have always paid low bucket. If I couldn't I'd change my date or not go at all. The flexible dining gets old fast. I agree with the above comments that Amtrak just doesn't care about their riders. They must know how much negative feedback they have had and nothing has changed. Substituting one reheated TV dinner for another is hardly an improvement.

They have refrigeration.Couldn't they stock subs/hoagies and bigger salads? How about cheesecake or ice cream for dessert? The Eastern trains went to this crap before Covid. A nod to that jerk Richard Anderson for the implementation of flex dining. Never have I seen such a positive spin on such an obvious downgrade. The sleeper prices haven't budged. Biggest ripoff is the almost $500 roomette for one person from NY/Phl to Florida...and that's low bucket.

May 21 is the target date for full service dining to return to the Western trains. I booked a trip on the Texas Eagle/Sunset for that day from Bloomington Il to LA in a roomette which is one of the very few bargains on Amtrak for $448 for a three night trip. Actually I m leaving from Chicago and booked a $13 coach seat and catching the Eagle later in the day. Leaving out of Chicago would have been $600.


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> one of the problems is that your crossing so many time zones so you have jet lag complicating meal times / snacks / within a relatively short amount of time. On the train, you have much more time.



Traveling by train is so much more relaxing and usually less stressful than flying regardless of the Class of air fare one purchases.

Re: jet lag: that was the trip that provided me with the worst jet lag that I have ever experienced: 10 days worth!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> usually less stressful than flying regardless of the Class of air fare one purchases.



Which part of flying first class do you find stressful?


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which part of flying first class do you find stressful?



The hoops one must go through in order to get to the plane or to the airline's Lounge. Then, baggage claim is always a "zoo" after the flight.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tim49424 said:


> I’m not sure why most people are down on Amtrak serving Cheesecake. If they could turn back the clock about a decade, in my opinion, the cheesecake was to die for. My first LD trip on the Empire Builder in May, 2012 was the best I’ve had anywhere. It was an orange cheesecake that I inhaled, I liked it so much! I went from Tomah to Portland and that was my go to dessert on that trip. They had an Oreo cheesecake on the return trip that wasn’t as good but the bar was set high for me. Of course, nowadays with the flex dining, which I’ve had on a couple of trips out East, I had the usual choice between the brownie and blondie, both of which I like but a far stretch from the cheesecake.


I love all the cheesecake types served on Amtrak... soooo yummy!

What's there not to like about Amtrak Cheesecake??? "Enjoy the Journey!" You betcha!


----------



## tim49424

20th Century Rider said:


> I love all the cheesecake types served on Amtrak... soooo yummy!
> 
> What's there not to like about Amtrak Cheesecake??? "Enjoy the Journey!" You betcha!
> 
> View attachment 20633


----------



## jiml

tim49424 said:


> View attachment 20635


Ooh, is that the Mandarin Orange one? Only had that once ever.


----------



## me_little_me

Those cheesecakes bring to mind a story - a little off topic.
Near where we live in NM, there was a dessert place that specialized in cheesecakes - full-sized ones. A co-worker in another office in AZ loved to fly into El Paso (where my office was) for meetings because he'd do anything for a cheesecake. One time, when he bought one to take home for himself and his wife, he decided to eat a piece, then a second, while waiting for his flight. Then it was delayed so 2 more pieces, totaling half the cake, were consumed. Realizing that bringing home half a cheesecake was an admission he had eaten the other half - one piece was all she allowed him per day because of his weight and medical conditions, he decide to continue. Before the plane left, he had finished it by himself.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> The hoops one must go through in order to get to the plane or to the airline's Lounge. Then, baggage claim is always a "zoo" after the flight.



Compared to the hoops of boarding Amtrak at Chicago, NYP, or Washington?

A few airports are particularly difficult (looks at Atlanta) but in reality it’s not too bad of a process in my experiences. In most aiports it’s pretty easy.


----------



## Qapla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which part of flying first class do you find stressful?



Flying!! I don't fly! Can't take heights, so the actual flying would be too stressful for me.



20th Century Rider said:


> What's there not to like about Amtrak Cheesecake???



Since I don't like any cheesecake, putting the name "Amtrak" on it would not make it something I would want.


----------



## tim49424

jiml said:


> Ooh, is that the Mandarin Orange one? Only had that once ever.



Probably is mandarin orange. It was my only trip where that was featured. I had it for my three desserts.


----------



## Barb Stout

Sidney said:


> I've been on several train rides during the past year and I paid low bucket for each one. I have always paid low bucket. If I couldn't I'd change my date or not go at all.


How do you find low bucket rides now that Amsnag is no more?


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> Under normal, non-pandemic, circumstances Amtrak should be able to provide meals of comparable quality to long-haul airline business (or even premium economy) class. Or First Class Acela dining considering sleeper are also considered First Class travel.


They will never serve meals comparable to Asian, Middle Eastern, or even European business class meals. Those meals are all extremely high quality, and presented perfectly. Meanwhile Amtrak meals are comparable to those of a diner. 

This is a China AIrlines long-haul business class meal.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> They will never serve meals comparable to Asian, Middle Eastern, or even European business class meals. Those meals are all extremely high quality, and presented perfectly. Meanwhile Amtrak meals are comparable to those of a diner.
> 
> This is a China AIrlines long-haul business class meal. View attachment 20637



That doesn’t look more impressive than what I’ve been served in domestic first class or on amtrak dining cars of the past.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> That doesn’t look more impressive than what I’ve been served in domestic first class or on amtrak dining cars of the past.


Remembering once upon a time... many years ago on China Airlines first class... when they had three classes of service.

So excited to be in first... until the long anticipated meal came... an inedible steak - all grizzle! 

So 'Cuisine Success is Situation Specific." 

Good and bad on Amtrak too... but for price paid... always a better value. BTW their steaks and angus burgers have always been... in my opinion... top notch!  

Nothing not to like here...


----------



## railiner

Cal said:


> . Meanwhile Amtrak meals are comparable to those of a diner.


If only!
If you are referring to the classic "diner's", especially prevalent along the Northeast Corridor area, typically run by ethnic Greek-American's, with their huge, multi-page menu's, and "all baking done on premises"... I could only dream of Amtrak food service being comparable.

Here's some of my favorites...



https://www.reodiner.com/menus/menu.pdf








__





Online Ordering | Clover







www.clover.com


----------



## PaTrainFan

I described the pre-"flex" meals as roughly on par with an Applebee's. Not nearly as well presented, either, with disposable dinnerware. The Canadian may be close to a Capital Grille experience. I can't even begin to think of an appropriate description of flex meals. Gruel, maybe.


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> If only!
> If you are referring to the classic "diner's", especially prevalent along the Northeast Corridor area, typically run by ethnic Greek-American's, with their huge, multi-page menu's, and "all baking done on premises"... I could only dream of Amtrak food service being comparable.
> 
> Here's some of my favorites...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reodiner.com/menus/menu.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Online Ordering | Clover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.clover.com


I was thinking more like, Dennys ya know


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> I described the pre-"flex" meals as roughly on par with an Applebee's. Not nearly as well presented, either, with disposable dinnerware. The Canadian may be close to a Capital Grille experience. I can't even begin to think of an appropriate description of flex meals. Gruel, maybe.



Whatever... but almost everyone on this forum agrees that flex meals gotta go!

I was just wondering what the 'processing plant' or 'industrial complex' looks like where they massively prepare all those sameness meals and all thousands of look alike brownies???

Just joking! [Or maybe not!]


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I was thinking more like, Dennys ya know



Yeah I think Denny’s, IHOP, Applebee’s, etc. are all appropriate comparisons to the traditional dining car. 

Meanwhile I’m not aware of any restaurant that serves TV dinners and a brownie.


----------



## flitcraft

PaTrainFan said:


> I can't even begin to think of an appropriate description of flex meals. Gruel, maybe.


 When we rode the Capitol Limited--pre-COVID but post the introduction of 'flex dining,' where we had to go pick up our own food, we referred to it as "fetch and retch' dining...


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> Whatever... but almost everyone on this forum agrees that flex meals gotta go!
> 
> I was just wondering what the 'processing plant' or 'industrial complex' looks like where they massively prepare all those sameness meals and all thousands of look alike brownies???
> 
> Just joking! [Or maybe not!]


Nope. From here (previews.123rf.com)



The buildings are where the brownies are from.

The pipe in the middle is where the flex meals originate.


----------



## Railspike

I recall riding the Sunset Limited in the late 70s and early 80s when there were no reservations taken for any meal. The Heritage diner had specific hours for each meal but you could go whenever you chose. If the diner was full you just waited. Due to the fact that there were no intercom messages blasting through the train at 7 AM, as is done today, and after sleeping late, my wife and I would stroll in at the early lunch hour for what we considered to be "Brunch". One of the offerings on the Lunch menu was the "Late Riser". The "Late Riser" was 2 eggs (to order), choice of ham, sausage, or bacon, hash browns, and toast. Sometimes we accompanied this offering with a Bloody Mary!! Oh for the days.................


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Compared to the hoops of boarding Amtrak at Chicago, NYP, or Washington?



It's been awhile since I boarded Amtrak at Chicago or NYP and my most recent experience at Washington was 2018 so things may have changed, but I did not find any difficulty or unpleasantness in boarding the train at those stations.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> It's been awhile since I boarded Amtrak at Chicago or NYP and my most recent experience at Washington was 2018 so things may have changed, but I did not find any difficulty or unpleasantness in boarding the train at those stations.



I haven’t found difficulty or unpleasantness in boarding airplanes either. But if we are talking about hoops to jump through such as 

- wait over there until this time.
- now wait in this line until we call you. 
- why are you waiting here? You’re train is about to leave you better hurry!

I’ve certainly had that experience in NYP, CHI, and WAS.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> - wait over there until this time.
> - now wait in this line until we call you.
> - why are you waiting here? You’re train is about to leave you better hurry!



Our experiences have differed. I have not experienced anything that you described. I understand your reaction to my thoughts. Thanks for replying.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Collectively there are varied experiences when boarding an Amtrak train. Sometimes boarding in CHI can be chaos... it all depends on gate agents, trains being switched last minute to different gates, etc. But most of us know that it's all part of the travel routine!


----------



## TC_NYC

No doubt boarding at Washington/New York or Los Angeles/Chicago is a headache, but the reason I book amtrak is easy boarding at stations like New Carrolton, Glenview, Napreville, Stamford, Alexandria or Anaheim. I'm intentionally calling out smaller stations near big-city hubs. This is really where Amtrak shines in relation to airports and they really need to bring a better system to their big city stations. Hopefully the new Monihan building at NYP brings so improvements, but I doubt it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Our experiences have differed. I have not experienced anything that you described. I understand your reaction to my thoughts. Thanks for replying.



What hoops have you experienced at airports though? Perhaps our experiences have differed there as well.


----------



## Sidney

Barb Stout said:


> How do you find low bucket rides now that Amsnag is no more?


I know what the low buckets are for the long distance trains. I just punch in dates for the routes I am interested in. Wish Amtrak's website would show fares at a glance like Southwest,but they don't.


----------



## lordsigma

I have a new favorite flexible dining meal. The manicotti isn’t half bad (isn’t on the printed or online menu.) I think it’s the best of the bunch. A disclaimer - I don’t mind salt. Just finished it on 97. Photos attached.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> That doesn’t look more impressive than what I’ve been served in domestic first class or on amtrak dining cars of the past.


Exactly. If I were going to pick an illustrative international Business Class airline meal that wouldn't have been it.


----------



## Cal

TC_NYC said:


> No doubt boarding at Washington/New York or Los Angeles/Chicago is a headache, but the reason I book amtrak is easy boarding at stations like New Carrolton, Glenview, Napreville, Stamford, Alexandria or Anaheim. I'm intentionally calling out smaller stations near big-city hubs. This is really where Amtrak shines in relation to airports and they really need to bring a better system to their big city stations. Hopefully the new Monihan building at NYP brings so improvements, but I doubt it.


I have never been to the East Coast. However when I boarded the Starlight from LA last October it was very smooth. They called us to board in the Lounge, we went outside, got a red cap. And they took us to the spot we would board. Train came in, we boarded. It was very simply and not complicated at all. 

I will say though, if Amtrak could standardize boarding at all stations, it would be much easier. I really don't love the gates at Eastern stations, you should be able to just walk up and board like at the regular ones. -_- 

And on a different note, Amtrak really needs to improve customer service since I have seen SO many Yelp reviews of rude staff. It's so inconsistent..


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I have never been to the East Coast. However when I boarded the Starlight from LA last October it was very smooth. They called us to board in the Lounge, we went outside, got a red cap. And they took us to the spot we would board. Train came in, we boarded. It was very simply and not complicated at all.
> 
> I will say though, if Amtrak could standardize boarding at all stations, it would be much easier. I really don't love the gates at Eastern stations, you should be able to just walk up and board like at the regular ones. -_-
> 
> And on a different note, Amtrak really needs to improve customer service since I have seen SO many Yelp reviews of rude staff. It's so inconsistent..



LA is probably the best of the “big” stations. I’ve never had any issues there. Not sure if it’s the station layout or just the laid back “chill” California vibe.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> LA is probably the best of the “big” stations. I’ve never had any issues there. Not sure if it’s the station layout or just the laid back “chill” California vibe.


Probably a mixture of both.


----------



## CTANut

I hope this goes away soon. It tastes like bad McDonald's food.


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-East-0720.pdf


----------



## CTANut

The salads at Wendy's are fresher than the Amtrak salads.


----------



## Mailliw

The other think that bothers me about Flex dining is the massive amount of packaging waste. Everything is single use plastic, and I have doubts as to how much of this actually gets recycled.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Mailliw said:


> The other think that bothers me about Flex dining is the massive amount of packaging waste. Everything is single use plastic, and I have doubts as to how much of this actually gets recycled.



Who cares about packaging waste... it's the physical assault on your health and well being and survivability. Where is the focus of everyone on this discussion??? Melted plastic in the Amtrak container is carcinogenic and has been documented as such. Why are all so complacent??? This is a health issue. We've been through this before and no one seems to care about getting cancer...

"Bad for you!" is what Flex meals are all about! ☹

Sorry for being so 'concerned'... but the message just doesn't seem to be getting across. Ingesting melted plastics with carcinogens will probably kill you unless you are lucky and can get away with it. Stop being so acceptive and lovingly nice about flex meals! 









Garbage Served, Garbage Generated - Railway Age


In 1837, Hans Christian Anderson published a modernized and revised version of an ancient fable, under the title, “The Emperor’s New Clothes.” In it, the vain and foolish Emperor is taken in by charlatan weavers who promise him a glorious new wardrobe, magically invisible only to stupid and...




www.railwayage.com


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> The other think that bothers me about Flex dining is the massive amount of packaging waste. Everything is single use plastic, and I have doubts as to how much of this actually gets recycled.


Mhm. And a good chunk of the stuff we throw into our recycle bin get's thrown out anyway so.


----------



## Qapla

20th Century Rider said:


> Melted plastic in the Amtrak container is carcinogenic



So is smoking - I would like it if Amtrak improved the food AND eliminated "smoke stops". I know they are supposed to be "fresh air stops" - but, since so many rush out to smoke the fresh air is overwhelmed. Ban smoking on the train, platform and station while also getting rid of the plastic that gets microwaved and/or convection heated.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Mhm. And a good chunk of the stuff we throw into our recycle bin get's thrown out anyway so.


I was told over and over again by traveling Amtrak supervisors that none of the plastics from the diner or water bottles are recycled... to cut down on costs all are dumped with other trash at designated stops and goes directly to landfill.

So... did you know that there is so much plastic in the environment now that small bits of plastics are found in foods eaten... fish to fruit... then become embedded in us? We need to take on a much greater responsibility for the environment.

When it comes to recycling and the environment, Amtrak is a leading offender!


----------



## CameraObscura76

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which part of flying first class do you find stressful?


_I’m terrified of heights so any aspect of flying for me is stressful, regardless of seat class. _


----------



## 20th Century Rider

CTANut said:


> The salads at Wendy's are fresher than the Amtrak salads.


Those Amtrak teeny tiny salads in the 3" plastic containers are just a few small shreds of lettuce and a cherry tomato [or in some cases just half of a cherry tomato.] No food value, no taste, and just not worth even comparing with anything else. Meh.


----------



## Barb Stout

Sidney said:


> I know what the low buckets are for the long distance trains. I just punch in dates for the routes I am interested in. Wish Amtrak's website would show fares at a glance like Southwest,but they don't.


I was afraid you were going to say that, but I was hoping against hope that you found some kind of marvelous "hack".


----------



## Sidney

Amtrak's website is not the most user friendly. Until I memorized the low buckets I would punch in every date and if the lowest fare would come up several times I assumed it was low bucket. Here are a few low bucket Chicago to West Coast fares for one person roomette senior fare:Empire Builder $505, Cal. Zephyr $534,Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle $600
Hope this helps.


----------



## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> LA is probably the best of the “big” stations. I’ve never had any issues there. Not sure if it’s the station layout or just the laid back “chill” California vibe.


Really? I transferred from the SWC to the Coast Starlight twice in LA and both times it was confusing, chaotic, and very crowded. The first time the people at the counter wouldn't check the baggage that people brought because the baggage checkers were apparently coming in on another train and were late. They didn't arrive until maybe 1/2 hour before CS putative departure. Naturally, they held the train. I didn't and don't understand scheduling that would put baggage checkers on another train, but whatever. And then the platforms were so crowded that there was some mild danger of people being accidently pushed onto the tracks. Chicago's Union Station was much smoother in my experience.


----------



## junebug

railiner said:


> If only!
> If you are referring to the classic "diner's", especially prevalent along the Northeast Corridor area, typically run by ethnic Greek-American's, with their huge, multi-page menu's, and "all baking done on premises"... I could only dream of Amtrak food service being comparable.
> 
> Here's some of my favorites...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reodiner.com/menus/menu.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Online Ordering | Clover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.clover.com



Wow, I thought those Greek owned diners were a Chicago thing. That's where I am from. They are wonderful. One of the best Jewish Delis there is owned by Greeks. They also control the produce market in Chicago. I recently moved to another state. Produce not nearly as good.


----------



## junebug

lordsigma said:


> I have a new favorite flexible dining meal. The manicotti isn’t half bad (isn’t on the printed or online menu.) I think it’s the best of the bunch. A disclaimer - I don’t mind salt. Just finished it on 97. Photos attached.


Looks pretty good. I miss Amtrak. Aren't you afraid to take the train these days?


----------



## joelkfla

junebug said:


> Wow, I thought those Greek owned diners were a Chicago thing. That's where I am from. They are wonderful. One of the best Jewish Delis there is owned by Greeks. They also control the produce market in Chicago. I recently moved to another state. Produce not nearly as good.


There was one in Orlando that made a great pastitsio some years back. Don't know whether it's still there; I moved out of the neighborhood and there's been a lot of redevelopment in the area.


----------



## Qapla

CameraObscura76 said:


> _I’m terrified of heights so any aspect of flying for me is stressful, regardless of seat class. _



Glad I'm not the only one ...


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> What hoops have you experienced at airports though? Perhaps our experiences have differed there as well.



Check-in kiosks that can't find my reservation or won't complete the check-in resulting in my standing in a line to do so with an agent.

The TSA experience even with Pre- Check; sometimes it works smoothly; sometimes not. 

Long walks from check-in and security through the concourses in order to get to my gate. Then, sometimes, its announced that the flight will depart from Gate B-1 when I am at D-22. Another long walk. 

A second security clearance at the Gate just prior to boarding the plane where my carry-on has to partly unpacked and searched. (My worst experience was when I was the last passenger on the flight and the gate agent wanted to close the door so the flight could depart on time.) 

No space in the overhead luggage bins near my seat for my small carry-on. So, my carry-on has to be taken off the plane and gate checked.

And, then there is the "delightful" onboard experience in Economy/Coach. But, that is not directly responding to your question.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Check-in kiosks that can't find my reservation or won't complete the check-in resulting in my standing in a line to do so with an agent.
> 
> The TSA experience even with Pre- Check; sometimes it works smoothly; sometimes not.
> 
> Long walks from check-in and security through the concourses in order to get to my gate. Then, sometimes, its announced that the flight will depart from Gate B-1 when I am at D-22. Another long walk.
> 
> A second security clearance at the Gate just prior to boarding the plane where my carry-on has to partly unpacked and searched. (My worst experience was when I was the last passenger on the flight and the gate agent wanted to close the door so the flight could depart on time.)
> 
> No space in the overhead luggage bins near my seat for my small carry-on. So, my carry-on has to be taken off the plane and gate checked.
> 
> And, then there is the "delightful" onboard experience in Economy/Coach. But, that is not directly responding to your question.



Ahh yes that would explain it. The only issues I’ve ever had were long lines at TSA when flying coach. And that was only at airports that are set up poorly like Atlanta.

Also... the no space in overhead bins wouldn’t apply if you were in first class either but I get your point. I would be particularly annoyed to have my bag checked a second time before boarding... seems silly but I’ve had my bag searched in my roomette as well and I was equally annoyed ha.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> I have a new favorite flexible dining meal. The manicotti isn’t half bad (isn’t on the printed or online menu.) I think it’s the best of the bunch. A disclaimer - I don’t mind salt. Just finished it on 97. Photos attached.


I was brought up in a 100% Italian family. That looked worse than gross. I'm planning to ask the Italian-American Anti-Defamation League to sue Amtrak and demand that those responsible be made to sleep with the fishes.


----------



## Cal

CameraObscura76 said:


> _I’m terrified of heights so any aspect of flying for me is stressful, regardless of seat class. _


Well I personally don't like heights on roller coasters, any time I'm on one I'll usually have my eyes closed when I'm at the top as I can't stand looking out. But on a plane, I absolutely love it. I also have a passion for commercial aviation. So I really enjoy flying. 

And it helps that I know that planes are much safer than cars so.


----------



## Cal

Barb Stout said:


> Really? I transferred from the SWC to the Coast Starlight twice in LA and both times it was confusing, chaotic, and very crowded. The first time the people at the counter wouldn't check the baggage that people brought because the baggage checkers were apparently coming in on another train and were late. They didn't arrive until maybe 1/2 hour before CS putative departure. Naturally, they held the train. I didn't and don't understand scheduling that would put baggage checkers on another train, but whatever. And then the platforms were so crowded that there was some mild danger of people being accidently pushed onto the tracks. Chicago's Union Station was much smoother in my experience.


Well, the times when I've gone out of LA, I've always been in the Metropolitan lounge. And we've never checked bags. So it's been really simple. 

1: They tell us our train is leaving the yard, and that we can head to the platform. So we gather everything and walk outside. 

2. We get on a red cap cart, and he takes us and our luggage to the place on the platform our car should stop. Crowds have never really been an issue. In fact I would think Chicago platforms would be more crowded. They seem TINY. 

3. We wait a few minutes (I always get very excited and hyped), train comes, we board. 

Of course, departing as a coach passenger with no lounge.. That could be hectic.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> I was told over and over again by traveling Amtrak supervisors that none of the plastics from the diner or water bottles are recycled... to cut down on costs all are dumped with other trash at designated stops and goes directly to landfill.
> 
> So... did you know that there is so much plastic in the environment now that small bits of plastics are found in foods eaten... fish to fruit... then become embedded in us? We need to take on a much greater responsibility for the environment.
> 
> When it comes to recycling and the environment, Amtrak is a leading offender!


Sigh..


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Of course, departing as a coach passenger with no lounge.. That could be hectic.



I’ve never had an issue and have ridden many crowded Surfliners. But that’s my experience. I agree with Chicago platforms feeling more small and crowded but that may just be the difference between being indoors and outside.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> I was brought up in a 100% Italian family. That looked worse than gross. I'm planning to ask the Italian-American Anti-Defamation League to sue Amtrak and demand that those responsible be made to sleep with the fishes.


It was certainly not gourmet food and was not implying such - but compared to the other flex dining choices I liked it better - i didn’t think it was gross tasting but you are right it’s certainly not restaurant quality food. While I don’t agree with the popular opinion on this board that the meals are so gross they are inedible - That’s not to say I’m an apologist for Amtrak or think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.


----------



## lordsigma

junebug said:


> Looks pretty good. I miss Amtrak. Aren't you afraid to take the train these days?


Not really. I just had Covid at the beginning of January - thankfully mildly. Im also rather extroverted so the endless quarantine eats away at my sanity. Also not at a high risk age so I’m willing to take the risk.


----------



## johnmiller

Mailliw said:


> The other think that bothers me about Flex dining is the massive amount of packaging waste. Everything is single use plastic, and I have doubts as to how much of this actually gets recycled.



Yeah, it is nuts! Using aluminum trays covered with aluminum foil would be better, and have a better shot at being recycled since it's straight metal.


----------



## neroden

Someone finally managed to get a photo of the ingredients labels for three of the new packaged meals. (I've been trying to figure out how to get Amtrak to publish their ingredients for years.)

Yep. I'm allergic to all of them. So's my girlfriend, due to a different ingredient.

Nice incompetence, Amtrak. Maybe try providing a selection of decent food which caters to people with different food sensitivities. How hard can it be? The old salads and steaks were a good start.


----------



## Bob Dylan

neroden said:


> Someone finally managed to get a photo of the ingredients labels for three of the new packaged meals. (I've been trying to figure out how to get Amtrak to publish their ingredients for years.)
> 
> Yep. I'm allergic to all of them. So's my girlfriend, due to a different ingredient.
> 
> Nice incompetence, Amtrak. Maybe try providing a selection of decent food which caters to people with different food sensitivities. How hard can it be? The old salads and steaks were a good start.


These seem to be the #1 Complaints by most Amtrak fans.

Better tasting, higher quality meals with Lower Sodium and Sugar ( and probably no Garlic or Peanuts)counts is the way to go when current contracts expire!


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> These seem to be the #1 Complaints by most Amtrak fans.
> 
> Better tasting, higher quality meals with Lower Sodium and Sugar ( and probably no Garlic or Peanuts)counts is the way to go when current contracts expire!


No Garlic? Does that mean I have to carry a cross on the train with me to keep away the vampires?


----------



## JeanA

neroden said:


> Someone finally managed to get a photo of the ingredients labels for three of the new packaged meals. (I've been trying to figure out how to get Amtrak to publish their ingredients for years.)



Would you be comfortable listing the ingredients? Just the additives? I'm allergic to a few, also.


----------



## joelkfla

Bob Dylan said:


> These seem to be the #1 Complaints by most Amtrak fans.
> 
> Better tasting, higher quality meals with Lower Sodium and Sugar ( and probably no Garlic or Peanuts)counts is the way to go when current contracts expire!


I didn't know garlic is a common allergy concern.

Garlic is said to have many health benefits. And it really improves the taste of foods IMHO. In Gilroy CA, self-proclaimed garlic capital of the world and home of the annual Garlic Festival, the slogan is, "Garlic is like a second mother."


----------



## Bob Dylan

joelkfla said:


> I didn't know garlic is a common allergy concern.
> 
> Garlic is said to have many health benefits. And it really improves the taste of foods IMHO. In Gilroy CA, self-proclaimed garlic capital of the world and home of the annual Garlic Festival, the slogan is, "Garlic is like a second mother."


Lots of folks are allergic to Garlic.


----------



## PVD

For the cheesecake folks: Who remembers Nuns of the New Skete Monastery Cheesecake on Empire Service trains some years back?


----------



## SP&S

joelkfla said:


> I didn't know garlic is a common allergy concern.
> 
> Garlic is said to have many health benefits. And it really improves the taste of foods IMHO. In Gilroy CA, self-proclaimed garlic capital of the world and home of the annual Garlic Festival, the slogan is, "Garlic is like a second mother."



Although I can understand some people not liking garlic, let's not get rid of it altogether. As was said at a local garlic gestival "*Eat Garlic Fight Mouthwash*".


----------



## CameraObscura76

Qapla said:


> Glad I'm not the only one ...


_Nope, I’ve been this way as long as I can remember. My last airplane ride ended with me in a complete panic, unable to leave my seat-even to go to the bathroom. I haven’t travelled on an airline since. _


----------



## caravanman

The important thing about food allergies is that they are not at all about "disliking the taste", they are about staying alive for those folks with severe issues.


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> Lots of folks are allergic to Garlic.


Many individuals develop a garlic allergy later in life. All of the flex meals contain garlic (last time customer relations checked on my behalf).


----------



## Railspike

January 2020. Sunset Limited. Nuff said!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Better to bring your own food than to eat that carcinogenic, sodium and fat filled lethal deadly inedible stuff they are now serving... day after day and everywhere on the system. Amtrak food service is a sham and a disgrace to the traveling public... who are forced to pay for it when traveling in sleepers.

The flex dining concept is wrong wrong wrong... and very harmful. It must be changed!  

Below: Wel'p... here we are again staring at the same old boring meal served day after day throughout the Amtrak system.

b o r i n g !!!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Railspike said:


> January 2020. Sunset Limited. Nuff said!


Yes... but those pics are a real tease!


----------



## Sidney

I did a couple of circle trips in January and February of last year just before the pedemic hit and full service dining was put on hold. I recall riding the Capitol Limited to Chicago which had and still has flex dining and looked forward to the full dining experience. Since then,I have ridden a few times and my anticipation went away.

I've had that steak dinner many many times over the last thirty years of riding and every time it was cooked to perfection. I loved the mussels and later ribs for lunch and the omelettes for breakfast. It's mind blowing how the quality of food has sinked to this.

I booked a trip for May 22,the date full dining should return. Wishful thinking but with most people having vaccinations by then,it might happen. Then again,maybe Amtrak has no intention of returning full dining. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Palmetto

20th Century Rider said:


> Better to bring your own food than to eat that carcinogenic, sodium and fat filled lethal deadly inedible stuff they are now serving... day after day and everywhere on the system. Amtrak food service is a sham and a disgrace to the traveling public... who are forced to pay for it when traveling in sleepers.
> 
> The flex dining concept is wrong wrong wrong... and very harmful. It must be changed!
> 
> Below: Wel'p... here we are again staring at the same old boring meal served day after day throughout the Amtrak system.
> 
> b o r i n g !!!!
> 
> View attachment 20737




I don't think I've ever seen green beans quite that long.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Palmetto said:


> I don't think I've ever seen green beans quite that long.


Due to cost cutting they're probably half the size now!


----------



## caravanman

Sidney said:


> I did a couple of circle trips in January and February of last year just before the pedemic hit and full service dining was put on hold. I recall riding the Capitol Limited to Chicago which had and still has flex dining and looked forward to the full dining experience. Since then,I have ridden a few times and my anticipation went away.
> 
> I've had that steak dinner many many times over the last thirty years of riding and every time it was cooked to perfection. I loved the mussels and later ribs for lunch and the omelettes for breakfast. It's mind blowing how the quality of food has sinked to this.
> 
> I booked a trip for May 22,the date full dining should return. Wishful thinking but with most people having vaccinations by then,it might happen. Then again,maybe Amtrak has no intention of returning full dining. I hope I'm wrong.


Good luck for your trip on 22/5 that is my birthday! Let us know how your trip goes...


----------



## me_little_me

Palmetto said:


> I don't think I've ever seen green beans quite that long.


Only where the train goes by a nuclear power plant.


----------



## jiml

Railspike said:


> January 2020. Sunset Limited. Nuff said!


That was my exact meal on my last LD Amtrak trip.


----------



## Cal

Railspike said:


> January 2020. Sunset Limited. Nuff said!


Oh how I loved getting a steak... Was my meal for every dinner,


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> Oh how I loved getting a steak... Was my meal for every dinner,



Mine too. Being that it's not coming back soon, if at all, I'm missing it all the more!


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> Mine too. Being that it's not coming back soon, if at all, I'm missing it all the more!


Yep..


----------



## TrackWalker

20th Century Rider said:


> ...Meh.



LOL. Just finished watching "The Emoji Movie" an hour ago. "Meh" is this one  and the lead character/emoji.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TrackWalker said:


> LOL. Just finished watching "The Emoji Movie" an hour ago. "Meh" is this one  and the lead character/emoji.


So... what came first, the term 'Meh' - or Amtrak Flex dining???

I'll bet the scholars will be up late tonight contemplating this one!!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> As a long-time customer of food trucks, I can assure you that they are not good for social distancing, as you need to stand in line for a long time while your food is prepared.
> 
> For long distance trains during this pandemic, the best type of food service is probably a tray meal served in your room or at your seat. In other words, flex dining.


I'll take a PB & J on some really good nut bread brought from home any day before I'd nauseate on a flex meal.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Only where the train goes by a nuclear power plant.


Actually the pic with the big string beans was probably 'done up special' for the media and the press but not very much like pics of the real thing that flex meal victims are posting. In those the veggies are wilted and gray.


----------



## crescent-zephyr




----------



## Sidney

Gross. I've had that meal and I couldn't finish it. Not because it was filling.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Gross. I've had that meal and I couldn't finish it. Not because it was filling.


Neither could the passenger who took this pic of that same meal that didn't get finished. Notice how they threw the plasticware wrapper in the mess before throwing it away???

Many of those inedible meals go unfinished... you're not alone!!!


----------



## TinCan782

Here are five labels I was able to photograph last September on a western LD train. The meals were brought to the table with the plastic film and label still intact!


----------



## Qapla

Thanks. I looked them over .... however:

Maybe someone with better eyesight than me can recreate these labels into something a little more legible


----------



## TinCan782

Qapla said:


> Thanks. I looked them over .... however:
> 
> Maybe someone with better eyesight than me can recreate these labels into something a little more legible


Just the length of the ingredient list alone says a lot!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Now that’s presentation!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

FrensicPic said:


> Here are five labels I was able to photograph last September on a western LD train. The meals were brought to the table with the plastic film and label still intact!
> View attachment 20766
> View attachment 20767
> View attachment 20768
> View attachment 20769
> View attachment 20770


This whole entire thing about such prepackaged and homogenized food is just... kind - a sad.


----------



## flitcraft

Yup...my kitchen is fresh outta modified food starch and powdered chicken.


----------



## me_little_me

Note that federal law requires ingredients to be listed in order of most to least so that the Chicken Marsala "meal" has chicken next to last and veggies last.

Now that's a healthy meal! If you like eating garbage.

It should be described as faux Marsala Sauce with a few extra minor ingredients.

Scientists say you can get sick from second hand smoke. Wonder if the staff can get sick from second-hand gross-eries. They might die just from touching the containers day after day.


----------



## Sidney

I m hoping full service dining returns in May. If not,Amtrak..please offer other food like sandwiches soups or full salads! Do they have any idea how unpopular this flexible dining is?
..


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I m hoping full service dining returns in May. If not,Amtrak..please offer other food like sandwiches soups or full salads! Do they have any idea how unpopular this flexible dining is?
> ..


Well said... you spoke for many of us!


----------



## joelkfla

Interesting that they have to be thawed in the fridge overnight. I wonder whether unsold meals are held in the fridge for the next day, or next next day. Maybe that explains the reported variations in texture, such as the sturdiness of the meatballs.


----------



## lordsigma

It’s ridiculously unpopular among enthusiasts and railfans and longtime rail travelers who are well aware of what railroad dining cars used to be and others where the dining car was one of the main reasons they traveled by train (and of course those of us with dietary restrictions and more conscious of what we are eating.) But I think if you were to poll travelers as a whole you’d probably be surprised how many are either fine with it or don’t care that much - the only person I heard complaining about it on my last trip is an employee. On my recent trips I only heard people say that they either liked it or that it wasn’t bad - especially among the people that I’ve talked to where they are, like me, relatively new to traveling by train. Now of course I’m not talking to everyone and the amount of people you see coming out of their rooms with Covid is limited but just reporting what I’ve experienced recently. I’m not saying there aren’t many that don’t like it - just that it may not be as universally despised in the general Amtrak traveler population as much as it is among those of us who are long time enthusiast riders. I say this was no disrespect towards those folks here - I think that’s an important aspect of Amtrak’s ridership that it shouldn’t push away. But here we are.


----------



## Maverickstation

We will have to wait and see what 2021 brings in the form of Amtrak's dining service, but as many have pointed out the current Flex Dining program leaves much to be desired, and frankly nothing on that menu is good for anyone watching sodium in take (like me). I actually had someone challenge me on this one, asking don't I ever splurge on a food that may be higher in sodium that I should eat ? The answer being of course from time to time, but that splurge is for something really good, not the Flex Dining crap. On to another part of this tale is that since the advent of Amfleet, Amtrak has attempted to "tweek" Dining Car service this consistent pattern of inconsistency does nothing to help with LD ridership, and satisfaction.

Some of the "tweeks" included dropping full service dining, for Amdinette Service with "tray meals"on trains like the Montrealer. In the 1980's the Florida trains had full service dining eliminated for "buffet" style service, and when traditional dining was brought back there was a period when it was only offered south of Washington D.C. Then in 2006 the SDS (Simplified Dining Service) commenced, in this program the kitchen staff was cut back and entrees were premade and reheated on board. The initial SDS program banned to use of the grill, so steaks, and fresh eggs went out the window. 
The SDS program went away by 2011, and the current traditional dining program (when and if it returns) is basically a compromise between the earlier versions of traditional dining car service and the SDS program. See the link below, for details on the SDS program, it makes for interesting reading. Lastly one of the better options Amtrak offered was the Cross Country Cafe service, this service offered an all day menu from 11:00 am on, with special dinner entrees from 5:00 to 9:00, a separate breakfast menu, and a "grab and go" case, I guess this was too up to date for them.



Amtrak Simplified Dining Service


----------



## Railspike

lordsigma said:


> It’s ridiculously unpopular among enthusiasts and railfans and longtime rail travelers who are well aware of what railroad dining cars used to be and others where the dining car was one of the main reasons they traveled by train (and of course those of us with dietary restrictions and more conscious of what we are eating.) But I think if you were to poll travelers as a whole you’d probably be surprised how many are either fine with it or don’t care that much - the only person I heard complaining about it on my last trip is an employee. On my recent trips I only heard people say that they either liked it or that it wasn’t bad - especially among the people that I’ve talked to where they are, like me, relatively new to traveling by train. Now of course I’m not talking to everyone and the amount of people you see coming out of their rooms with Covid is limited but just reporting what I’ve experienced recently. I’m not saying there aren’t many that don’t like it - just that it may not be as universally despised in the general Amtrak traveler population as much as it is among those of us who are long time enthusiast riders. I say this was no disrespect towards those folks here - I think that’s an important aspect of Amtrak’s ridership that it shouldn’t push away. But here we are.


I am both a long-time rail traveler and a train enthusiast but must disagree with you. No disrespect taken.
The on-board food served in Amtrak dining cars of late didn't come close to comparing to the food served in dining cars in the 40s-60s era. But Amtrak's food was still good, not great, but was healthier, and was definitely edible with several options. There is no excuse to serve this so-called food (flex-meal) that Amtrak is serving today. None. With the increase in cost to ride a sleeper, it should be easy for Amtrak to pay a few dollars more for the flex meals resulting in a better product. Due to the pandemic, there are quality, ready-to-eat offerings available from multiple sources for your choosing. Why can't Amtrak offer the same? They could.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> On my recent trips I only heard people say that they either liked it or that it wasn’t bad - especially among the people that I’ve talked to where they are, like me, relatively new to traveling by train. Now of course I’m not talking to everyone and the amount of people you see coming out of their rooms with Covid is limited but just reporting what I’ve experienced recently.



The expectations of anyone traveling right now are going to be very low. Airlines are giving first class passengers a snack bag and most restaurants have modified menus including fast food restaurants like McDonald’s. 

I don’t think there is a magical line drawn between “enthusiasts” and the general public.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Note that federal law requires ingredients to be listed in order of most to least so that the Chicken Marsala "meal" has chicken next to last and veggies last.
> 
> Now that's a healthy meal! If you like eating garbage.
> 
> It should be described as faux Marsala Sauce with a few extra minor ingredients.
> 
> Scientists say you can get sick from second hand smoke. Wonder if the staff can get sick from second-hand gross-eries. They might die just from touching the containers day after day.



On that ingredient label towards the top... did you see... sodium, fat, food enhancers, food extenders, followed by cautionary labels saying 'consumption can be hazard to health??? 

Or is the fine print too small to see?

Did you know that 'fine print' means the food is not fine?

Is Amtrak trying to discourage sleeper car travel by making us pay for this stuff??? 

"A flex meal is a 'gag joke!"


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Maverickstation said:


> We will have to wait and see what 2021 brings in the form of Amtrak's dining service, but as many have pointed out the current Flex Dining program leaves much to be desired, and frankly nothing on that menu is good for anyone watching sodium in take (like me). I actually had someone challenge me on this one, asking don't I ever splurge on a food that may be higher in sodium that I should eat ? The answer being of course from time to time, but that splurge is for something really good, not the Flex Dining crap. On to another part of this tale is that since the advent of Amfleet, Amtrak has attempted to "tweek" Dining Car service this consistent pattern of inconsistency does nothing to help with LD ridership, and satisfaction.
> 
> Some of the "tweeks" included dropping full service dining, for Amdinette Service with "tray meals"on trains like the Montrealer. In the 1980's the Florida trains had full service dining eliminated for "buffet" style service, and when traditional dining was brought back there was a period when it was only offered south of Washington D.C. Then in 2006 the SDS (Simplified Dining Service) commenced, in this program the kitchen staff was cut back and entrees were premade and reheated on board. The initial SDS program banned to use of the grill, so steaks, and fresh eggs went out the window.
> The SDS program went away by 2011, and the current traditional dining program (when and if it returns) is basically a compromise between the earlier versions of traditional dining car service and the SDS program. See the link below, for details on the SDS program, it makes for interesting reading. Lastly one of the better options Amtrak offered was the Cross Country Cafe service, this service offered an all day menu from 11:00 am on, with special dinner entrees from 5:00 to 9:00, a separate breakfast menu, and a "grab and go" case, I guess this was too up to date for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Simplified Dining Service


After all is said and done, the trend is towards cheep and cheeper... hmmm... not very chipper... Meh!


----------



## Manny T

Thanks to FrensicPic for posting the labels! I haven't been able to find the ingredients for these "meals" posted anywhere else. This is really a service.

Apart from the ingredients, three things are interesting to me: the distributor, New Horizon Industries Inc. of Jamaica NY -- I haven't been able to find information about this company on-line. Also the Vendor #FK241 and the WIMS# (varies by meal). Don't know what these are.

My feeling is, if we got some insight into who manufactures and distributes this stuff and then purveys it for profit to Amtrak, we might be able to figure out who sold the idea to Amtrak, what the company connections are, and why this miserable fail was foisted on the American riding public that is paying top dollar for sleeper accommodations.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Manny T said:


> Apart from the ingredients, three things are interesting to me: the distributor, New Horizon Industries Inc. of Jamaica NY -- I haven't been able to find information about this company on-line.


Is it really just one person serving as a middleman or something?

*Link...*


----------



## OBS

Manny T said:


> Thanks to FrensicPic for posting the labels! I haven't been able to find the ingredients for these "meals" posted anywhere else. This is really a service.
> 
> Apart from the ingredients, three things are interesting to me: the distributor, New Horizon Industries Inc. of Jamaica NY -- I haven't been able to find information about this company on-line. Also the Vendor #FK241 and the WIMS# (varies by meal). Don't know what these are.
> 
> My feeling is, if we got some insight into who manufactures and distributes this stuff and then purveys it for profit to Amtrak, we might be able to figure out who sold the idea to Amtrak, what the company connections are, and why this miserable fail was foisted on the American riding public that is paying top dollar for sleeper accommodations.


The WIMS # is just a number assigned to each product for Amtrak inventory purposes, and has no relevance to the Manufacturer....


----------



## me_little_me

Devil's Advocate said:


> Is it really just one person serving as a middleman or something?
> 
> *Link...*


The company is a subcontractor to this place:
Main Amtrak "flex meal" supplier

Edit: Link fixed


----------



## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> Is it really just one person serving as a middleman or something?
> 
> *Link...*


Yikes, if they only have 1 employee and do $80K in sales one has to wonder if Amtrak is the only customer. "Middleman" or "Coordinator" might actually be their only role, incorporated for tax and liability reasons. Given the location, I wonder if the business is co-located with others doing similar work for airlines.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Manny T said:


> Thanks to FrensicPic for posting the labels! I haven't been able to find the ingredients for these "meals" posted anywhere else. This is really a service.
> 
> Apart from the ingredients, three things are interesting to me: the distributor, New Horizon Industries Inc. of Jamaica NY -- I haven't been able to find information about this company on-line. Also the Vendor #FK241 and the WIMS# (varies by meal). Don't know what these are.
> 
> My feeling is, if we got some insight into who manufactures and distributes this stuff and then purveys it for profit to Amtrak, we might be able to figure out who sold the idea to Amtrak, what the company connections are, and why this miserable fail was foisted on the American riding public that is paying top dollar for sleeper accommodations.


What a sad litany is this discussion on such an offensive food product. Regardless of the vendor, Amtrak takes responsibility for charging sleeping car passengers for it... and dispensing it. Amtrak's policy on vendors is below; and the address mentioned is apparently a distribution point [see below for physical pic]. 



Amtrak Procurement Portal


----------



## Qapla

A further look at where this place is:











The back side of the building




Somehow, I doubt they make the meals there - looks like just a warehouse where they are stored and shipped from ... if that - could just be an office/desk behind the glass door where the paperwork for the billing and shipping is done.


----------



## Manny T

Devil's Advocate said:


> Is it really just one person serving as a middleman or something?
> *Link...*



I found that Dun & Bradstreet report on the one-person "New Horizon Industries Inc." with annual revenues of c. $80,000 and I frankly can't determine how that relates to the listed distributor of Amtrak's flex "meals."

I believe that in our quest to understand what Amtrak is doing or trying to do with flex "dining," it would help to broaden the net and find out where the sub-standard product is coming from, who conceived it and produces it, and what the history of that company is (prison food? Guantanamo Bay canteen?)


----------



## Qapla

However, the UPC from the package traces to
Foodkits, LLC
1102 Main Street
Bradley Beach, NJ



An interesting tidbit for this company
Foodkits, LLC in Bradley Beach, NJ - SBA PPP Loan Data (Paycheck Protection Program) (federalpay.org) 

This business traces to another and another ... seems to be connected to



CHEF GERARD CATERERS, LTD ... CHEF HYMIE GRANDE - New Jersey business directory. (bizstanding.com) 

Who knows where the trail ends


----------



## crescent-zephyr

What a mess. Doesn’t Amtrak still have the contract with Aramark as well? So is Amtrak paying Aramark who is then paying New Horizon?


----------



## me_little_me

So, shall we have a poll as to where the ultimate source is? Which is it?

Fresh Kills Landfill?

Soylent Green?

Both of which I suggested. But I'm open to alternatives.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

What a mess!


----------



## Manny T

I mean, who makes (manufactures) these meals? That's all I would like to know.


----------



## TinCan782

Manny T said:


> I mean, who makes (manufactures) these meals? That's all I would like to know.


Scroll up through previous posts...you'll find your answer!


----------



## niemi24s

But that post doesn't include its coordinates so an air strike can be called in!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Trains Magazine wrote last December... "Food service on Amtrak’s long-distance trains has become such an exercise in repetition that something as modest as the cold meal service on the Portland, Ore., section of the Empire Builder is both a notable and welcome respite."








Onboard analysis: Facing Amtrak's food and staffing challenges - Trains


CHICAGO — Food service on Amtrak’s long-distance trains has become such an exercise in repetition that something as modest as the cold meal service on the Portland, Ore., section of the Empire Builder is both a notable and welcome respite. That’s one aspect of the current state of onboard...




trn.trains.com





Great article which is 'right on track' with Amtrak's woeful food issues!

But the government is certainly to blame for cash starving this carrier... supposedly a governmental transportation operation fueled by tax dollars [everything is... including the lavish perks for elected officials who vote to take more from the taxpayers for their pockets.]

Gimme a break!


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> "Food service on Amtrak’s long-distance trains has become such an exercise in repetition that something as modest as the cold meal service on the Portland, Ore., section of the Empire Builder is both a notable and welcome respite."



I have experienced the cold meal service on that train and it was quite acceptable. More food provided than I expected. I wonder if such service is as good now as it was.


----------



## TrackWalker

Dakota 400 said:


> I have experienced the cold meal service on that train and it was quite acceptable. More food provided than I expected. I wonder if such service is as good now as it was.



I experienced this too back in 2017. Unfortunately, it was interesting to say the least as we were being bustituted from Pasco, WA to Portland at the time because of a bridge replacement at Camas, WA. Food was prepackaged and waiting outside the depot for us to choose, pick up, carry to the buses and eat on our laps.

If I recall correctly it was provided to both sleeper and coach passengers.


----------



## Maverickstation

On vendor that I tracked down that makes Amtrak Food for Kosher Flex Dining, is Borenstein, also 
of Jamaica Queens.

In their case they manufacture Kosher meals for a number of major airlines, and Amtrak.

The omelette for breakfast, and the three lunch/dinner options are about the healthiest entrees you can 
order from the Flex Dining Menu. They have to be ordered in advance, but anyone can order them.
The only negative that I have head about these options is that they run on the bland side. 



Borenstein


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Maverickstation said:


> On vendor that I tracked down that makes Amtrak Food for Kosher Flex Dining, is Borenstein, also
> of Jamaica Queens.
> 
> In their case they manufacture Kosher meals for a number of major airlines, and Amtrak.
> 
> The omelette for breakfast, and the three lunch/dinner options are about the healthiest entrees you can
> order from the Flex Dining Menu. They have to be ordered in advance, but anyone can order them.
> The only negative that I have head about these options is that they run on the bland side.
> 
> 
> 
> Borenstein


They quote Amtrak as one of their customers. Looks like they are a very high quality caterer and of course comprehensive and respectable in their catered food products. The fact that they serve El Al Israeli Airline says a lot about their quality and reliability; even if the food is not strongly spiced or uniquely flavored... they serve a lot of people. 

Their product would be my first choice over any flex meal Amtrak serves. No contest!


----------



## Qapla

I can't remember exactly where I saw them - had to visit several sites to find who owns the UPC for the Amtrak Flex Meals - but I did see a picture with a stack of the black-plated meals that looked like those served on Amtrak on one of the sites connected with Chef Gerard


----------



## lordsigma

Aramark probably arranges it all for them and may procure these items for them. Amtrak probably deals with Aramark who then procures the flex dining meals from whatever company produces them. I don’t believe Aramark itself produces any commercial prepackaged food products - they are a management outsourcing company that is running the commissary for them but they are not a food supplier they are procuring actual food product from others. When Aramark runs your kitchen or cafeteria the actual food is coming from a supplier like Sysco or Performance - they are a managed services provider as opposed to a food supplier.

Food service is their main managed service but they also do facilities management - you can hire them to manage your building infrastructure for you.


----------



## Qapla

No wonder the meals cost what they do then ...
Aramark is a management company who get them from New Horizons, another management company who gets them from Foodkits, who seem to be another management arm for Chef-in-a-Box who seems to be owned by Chef Gerard

All of those management fees must increase the cost

Imagine how much better food they could get for the money if they would cut out the middlemen


----------



## Mailliw

Just what are the kosher meals like on Amtrak? I might order them for my Capitol Limited trip this summer?


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> It’s ridiculously unpopular among enthusiasts and railfans and longtime rail travelers who are well aware of what railroad dining cars used to be and others where the dining car was one of the main reasons they traveled by train (and of course those of us with dietary restrictions and more conscious of what we are eating.) But I think if you were to poll travelers as a whole you’d probably be surprised how many are either fine with it or don’t care that much - the only person I heard complaining about it on my last trip is an employee. On my recent trips I only heard people say that they either liked it or that it wasn’t bad - especially among the people that I’ve talked to where they are, like me, relatively new to traveling by train. Now of course I’m not talking to everyone and the amount of people you see coming out of their rooms with Covid is limited but just reporting what I’ve experienced recently. I’m not saying there aren’t many that don’t like it - just that it may not be as universally despised in the general Amtrak traveler population as much as it is among those of us who are long time enthusiast riders. I say this was no disrespect towards those folks here - I think that’s an important aspect of Amtrak’s ridership that it shouldn’t push away. But here we are.



It might well be that a majority of Amtrak travelers don't care that much about the quality of the food, but there is at least a significant minority who do. The people who care the most are, like me, avoiding any of the trains with flex dining, which at this point is all of the long-distance services and pre-Covid was everything east of the Mississippi. So you wouldn't hear us complaining on board, but there might be some extra bedrooms that don't sell because we're staying home or found some other way to travel.

Certainly the attitude of Amtrak's management is that if flex dining drives away some longtime customers, they'll just recruit new riders who don't care about the food quality or don't have any sense of how much better it recently was. Whether this is a viable strategy is highly questionable in my view. In most businesses, you try not to tick off your most loyal, high-revenue customers, and you wouldn't bet on easily replacing them with people who've never tried your services. But of course Amtrak is not a normal business in many ways.


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> It might well be that a majority of Amtrak travelers don't care that much about the quality of the food, but there is at least a significant minority who do. The people who care the most are, like me, avoiding any of the trains with flex dining, which at this point is all of the long-distance services and pre-Covid was everything east of the Mississippi. So you wouldn't hear us complaining on board, but there might be some extra bedrooms that don't sell because we're staying home or found some other way to travel.
> 
> Certainly the attitude of Amtrak's management is that if flex dining drives away some longtime customers, they'll just recruit new riders who don't care about the food quality or don't have any sense of how much better it recently was. Whether this is a viable strategy is highly questionable in my view. In most businesses, you try not to tick off your most loyal, high-revenue customers, and you wouldn't bet on easily replacing them with people who've never tried your services. But of course Amtrak is not a normal business in many ways.


I think the only strategy right now is basic survival and providing basic transportation to those willing or required to ride right now and remember that many are not willing to travel right now. From Amtrak’s perspective they may feel that many longtime riders are probably of an age where they aren’t riding right now anyway, a bit of a generalization when it comes to age admittedly but the bottom line is many people aren’t traveling.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> I think the only strategy right now is basic survival and providing basic transportation to those willing or required to ride right now and remember that many are not willing to travel right now. From Amtrak’s perspective they may feel that many longtime riders are probably of an age where they aren’t riding right now anyway, a bit of a generalization when it comes to age admittedly but the bottom line is many people aren’t traveling.


And as far as other travel options you have to remember that airlines have also cut OBS and have their own disadvantages - and it sounds like some are starting to pull back on their policies of not booking middle seats except for traveling companions - yes first class is an option on some flights. I’m sorry but I’ll take flex dining any day over sitting on a cramped bus or on a plane with a stranger right next to me basically touching them during a pandemic - I don’t care how good the air circulation or filtration system is on the plane. When the pandemic ends and airlines begin ramping up onboard amenities again I’d like to hope that Amtrak management will as well.


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> I think the only strategy right now is basic survival and providing basic transportation to those willing or required to ride right now and remember that many are not willing to travel right now.



And that makes sense given where we are, though as others have suggested, there might be low-cost changes that would make the current regimen less horrible. 

In my own case, the pandemic would be keeping me off the train even if the dining service were great. But perhaps later this year, as immunizations increase and case counts go down, lots of us will start thinking about traveling again. Some who traveled Amtrak LD trains a lot in the past will be looking to see whether traditional dining service, or something close to it, is restored before we book new trips. If we go back to the pre-Covid status -- flex dining in the east and traditional dining in the west -- I'll be traveling a lot less than in the past, given that I live in the Northeast. I might plan a trip using the western trains, but I'd have to figure out how to get to Chicago first, which becomes something of a disincentive to going at all.


----------



## Qapla

Even if it is "Basic Survival" - having so many middlemen (management companies) involved in purchasing the food is an even worse idea.

Now would be a good time to rectify that situation and buy a better product for less cost without all the middlemen eating up money that should/could be spent on the actual food instead of the management of the food


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> And that makes sense given where we are, though as others have suggested, there might be low-cost changes that would make the current regimen less horrible.
> 
> In my own case, the pandemic would be keeping me off the train even if the dining service were great. But perhaps later this year, as immunizations increase and case counts go down, lots of us will start thinking about traveling again. Some who traveled Amtrak LD trains a lot in the past will be looking to see whether traditional dining service, or something close to it, is restored before we book new trips. If we go back to the pre-Covid status -- flex dining in the east and traditional dining in the west -- I'll be traveling a lot less than in the past, given that I live in the Northeast. I might plan a trip using the western trains, but I'd have to figure out how to get to Chicago first, which becomes something of a disincentive to going at all.


I don’t know I had a pretty enjoyable trip on 97 recently. Sure the flex dining isn’t anything to write home about (I found the ones I’ve had ok for traveling food but not what I’d want at a restaurant) but I greatly enjoyed lounging around in the diner after eating chatting with some other passengers who were in there (all socially distanced at separate tables) and had a few drinks. I thought it was fun.


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> Even if it is "Basic Survival" - having so many middlemen (management companies) involved in purchasing the food is an even worse idea.
> 
> Now would be a good time to rectify that situation and buy a better product for less cost without all the middlemen eating up money that should/could be spent on the actual food instead of the management of the food


I don’t know for a fact how they do it that was just a hypothesis - I have always heard Aramark managed the commissary service for them so I am assuming they are the ones that order everything for Amtrak - but if someone knows better please correct. I don’t think it’s a middleman as much as it is outright outsourcing with Aramark. With Aramark they don’t need to have Amtrak employees to worry about the tasks that Aramark takes care of for them - they can allow Aramark to use their buying power to procure From the suppliers they do business with.


----------



## TrackWalker

Interesting read.

Amtrak Food and Beverage Services and Section 209 a business within a business


----------



## Larry H.

I have friends who have taken the Acela first class and said the food was very tasty on that train. They have written Amtrak a number of times asking why the same vender or quality can't be available on the regular long distance trains. Being on a low carb diet lately I have found that many frozen dinners are just plain awful while a few others are really rather good. If they could do a study of possible travelers and let them say which dinners are acceptable. Having said all that there is nothing like a full service diner that has a good chef with real food. Their experiment probably 30 years ago by now, proved that great food was still possible, but after than its been a total run downhill. In fact it has reduced my desire to travel by rail considerably.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> airlines have also cut OBS and have their own disadvantages - and it sounds like some are starting to pull back on their policies of not booking middle seats



Delta is the only major airline that is still blocking seats.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Delta is the only major airline that is still blocking seats.


Yuck - makes me want to fly even less.


----------



## MilwaukeeRoadLover

crescent-zephyr said:


> The expectations of anyone traveling right now are going to be very low. Airlines are giving first class passengers a snack bag and most restaurants have modified menus including fast food restaurants like McDonald’s.
> 
> I don’t think there is a magical line drawn between “enthusiasts” and the general public.


First class? I would be so lucky. Even business class is out of reach. But I've had some fine meals on international flights in Economy.


----------



## lordsigma

Larry H. said:


> I have friends who have taken the Acela first class and said the food was very tasty on that train. They have written Amtrak a number of times asking why the same vender or quality can't be available on the regular long distance trains. Being on a low carb diet lately I have found that many frozen dinners are just plain awful while a few others are really rather good. If they could do a study of possible travelers and let them say which dinners are acceptable. Having said all that there is nothing like a full service diner that has a good chef with real food. Their experiment probably 30 years ago by now, proved that great food was still possible, but after than its been a total run downhill. In fact it has reduced my desire to travel by rail considerably.


It's a good idea but right now the Acela first class meals are also suspended. They are getting a snack box similar to several airlines - and the menus seem to hint that you may also get a cafe voucher along with the snacks but that's not totally clear. Even if you do, the cafes are also reduced to only the microwavable long shelf life items - no salads, sandwiches, etc.

Basically in the Acela/NER café you can get the cheeseburger, the vegan burger, the personal pizza (pepperoni only), or the hot dog. The rest of it is snacks and sweets. Breakfast in the corridor café is actually identical to flex dining on LD trains right now - they have the same Jimmy Dean sandwich and the same Blueberry muffin. The LD café cars offer a few more microwavable items (but no "fresh" items.) One thing that I noticed recently that's new - it appears on NER business you now get unlimited soft drinks sort of like Flex Dining on LD trains - previously I think you got 1 soft drink..


----------



## MilwaukeeRoadLover

lordsigma said:


> Yuck - makes me want to fly even less.


I agree. If that are back into packing, I'd want to wait until after the vaccine. Is Southwest the same?


----------



## Qapla

Many of the meals that were served "in the past" have changed since C-19 and may change back to something more palatable once things return to "normal" - except Amtrak  The meals being served system-wide were already being served on the East trains when no one had ever even heard of or even suspected C-19 would happen ... there is no excuse for these poor quality meals - they cannot blame them on the pandemic since they were already serving them


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> Many of the meals that were served "in the past" have changed since C-19 and may change back to something more palatable once things return to "normal" - except Amtrak  The meals being served system-wide were already being served on the East trains when no one had ever even heard of or even suspected C-19 would happen ... there is no excuse for these poor quality meals - they cannot blame them on the pandemic since they were already serving them


Officially traditional dining is still slated to return out west - yes I know most people don't believe they will - but officially they still are - presumably at the same time they bring back what's been cut out of café cars and Acela first.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> First class? I would be so lucky. Even business class is out of reach. But I've had some fine meals on international flights in Economy.



I was talking about domestic first class.


----------



## TinCan782

Qapla said:


> Many of the meals that were served "in the past" have changed since C-19 and may change back to something more palatable once things return to "normal" - except Amtrak  The meals being served system-wide were already being served on the East trains when no one had ever even heard of or even suspected C-19 would happen ... there is no excuse for these poor quality meals - they cannot blame them on the pandemic since they were already serving them


Yep, fall of 2019 I experienced "Flexible Dining" on the Lake Shore Limited and Crescent. This was implemented before any mention of Covid-19 at all.


----------



## Bob Dylan

FrensicPic said:


> Yep, fall of 2019 I experienced "Flexible Dining" on the Lake Shore Limited and Crescent. This was implemented before any mention of Covid-19 at all.


Yep, I had em on the Cap Ltd. in the Fall of 2019, and they were terrible!


----------



## Sidney

Thanks to Richard Anderson flex dining was introduced on the Capitol and Lake Shore in June 2018. They proved so wildly popular they were added to all the Eastern trains in October 2019. I trust you realize this is sarcasm at it's finest


----------



## me_little_me

Sidney said:


> Thanks to Richard Anderson flex dining was introduced on the Capitol and Lake Shore in June 2018. They proved so wildly popular they were added to all the Eastern trains in October 2019. I trust you realize this is sarcasm at it's finest


I couldn't wait to go back for more after my trip from ABQ to GRV at end of 2019. But I forced myself to wait. Just thinking of those thick, juicy flex boxes makes my mouth water. Thinking of the food in them makes my eyes water and my mouth gag.


----------



## lordsigma

Flex dining menu refresh is imminent - there will now be a breakfast omelette meal as an alternative to the continental breakfast and a minor refresh to the main entrees. And there will be periodic limited time extra meal choices that may be available that aren’t listed on the printed menu that you’d check with the LSA or SCA to see what’s available on your train (it appears the manicotti pasta meal is the first example of that.) 

Additionally Acela first will be getting a form of hot meals back - it sounds like they will be prepackaged meals sourced similar to the flex dining meals on LDTs. An omelette choice or the current breakfast snack box for breakfast (it sounds like the same omelette meal becoming available on LD trains) and three lunch/dinner choices. You’ll still be able to get the snack box or cafe burger/hot dog as choices.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> Flex dining menu refresh is imminent - there will now be a breakfast omelette meal as an alternative to the continental breakfast and a minor refresh to the main entrees. And there will be periodic limited time extra meal choices that may be available that aren’t listed on the printed menu that you’d check with the LSA or SCA to see what’s available on your train (it appears the manicotti pasta meal is the first example of that.)
> 
> Additionally Acela first will be getting a form of hot meals back - it sounds like they will be prepackaged meals sourced similar to the flex dining meals on LDTs. An omelette choice or the current breakfast snack box for breakfast (it sounds like the same omelette meal becoming available on LD trains) and three lunch/dinner choices. You’ll still be able to get the snack box or cafe burger/hot dog as choices.


Sounds like change for the better is coming to Amtrak' s Food and Beverage Service!  

Let's hope they're a little bit "Healthier" with Less Sodium and Sugar!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Flex dining menu refresh is imminent - there will now be a breakfast omelette meal as an alternative to the continental breakfast and a minor refresh to the main entrees. And there will be periodic limited time extra meal choices that may be available that aren’t listed on the printed menu that you’d check with the LSA or SCA to see what’s available on your train (it appears the manicotti pasta meal is the first example of that.)
> 
> Additionally Acela first will be getting a form of hot meals back - it sounds like they will be prepackaged meals sourced similar to the flex dining meals on LDTs. An omelette choice or the current breakfast snack box for breakfast (it sounds like the same omelette meal becoming available on LD trains) and three lunch/dinner choices. You’ll still be able to get the snack box or cafe burger/hot dog as choices.


Wondering where this information is available??? And while initially it sounds like good news... it may also signal that traditional dining may not be returning. 

Many issues with flex concept... tiny portions, monotonous sameness, small 3" nothing salads, and what could be called a nice dessert choice... those brownies that stretch the concept of monotonous even further.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

On Amtrak food facts there is already the cheese omelette listed as a kosher breakfast meal. I’m wondering if someone saw that and assumed a change was coming?


----------



## Mailliw

Any word on whether fresh options like entrée salads and sandwiches are being added?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Mailliw said:


> Any word on whether fresh options like entrée salads and sandwiches are being added?


Good question... but where is a reliable source for real information vs speculation???


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Flex dining menu refresh is imminent - there will now be a breakfast omelette meal as an alternative to the continental breakfast and a minor refresh to the main entrees. And there will be periodic limited time extra meal choices that may be available that aren’t listed on the printed menu that you’d check with the LSA or SCA to see what’s available on your train (it appears the manicotti pasta meal is the first example of that.)
> 
> Additionally Acela first will be getting a form of hot meals back - it sounds like they will be prepackaged meals sourced similar to the flex dining meals on LDTs. An omelette choice or the current breakfast snack box for breakfast (it sounds like the same omelette meal becoming available on LD trains) and three lunch/dinner choices. You’ll still be able to get the snack box or cafe burger/hot dog as choices.


Where is the source of this information? Couldn't find anything on the Amtrak website or google. ???


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Where is the source of this information? Couldn't find anything on the Amtrak website or google. ???


I heard from a reliable source. I cannot post the information but it’s definitely legitimate I saw the new updated menu graphics.


----------



## lordsigma

The Acela first menu has been posted. Flex dining not yet. A photo of the new Acela meals on social media shows they are basically the same as flex dining meals. The entrees are different but clearly the same vendor and even feature the same trays. .


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## lordsigma

I wanted to add the lunch/dinner changes on flex dining are minor. There’s one new meal and maybe one meal going away the rest are the same


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## lordsigma

On the eastern trains - the Cajun shrimp and andouille sausage is coming back replacing the shrimp and lobster sauce. On the western trains the Cajun meal is being replaced by a garlic and herb cod. Both now also have the text “ask your server about today’s specials” referring to extras that won’t be on the menu.


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## 20th Century Rider

Just found the Acela 1st class menu... it is posted on Amtrak's website... and seems to be improved above and beyond the previous COVID cutbacks. Looking forward to seeing what happens when full service dining is supposed to go into effect in May. 



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-First-Class-Food-Beverage-Menu.pdf


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Jimmy Dean Breakfast Sandwich doesnt belong on the Acela First Class Menu, for that matter it doesnt belong on any Amtrak Train IMO.


----------



## Sidney

Why can't they add sandwiches and soup and something other than a brownie for dessert? I don't think Amtrak listens to any customer feedback.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Fine, improvement is needed but until "full meal service" returns I will not be placated.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Just found the Acela 1st class menu... it is posted on Amtrak's website... and seems to be improved above and beyond the previous COVID cutbacks. Looking forward to seeing what happens when full service dining is supposed to go into effect in May.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-First-Class-Food-Beverage-Menu.pdf


Yes the omelette meal is the same that will now be available on flex dining. The enchiladas meal also appears to be the same and the short ribs sounds similar to the braised beef on the flex meals.


----------



## lordsigma

For me the breakfast is a huge improvement if the omelette is decent. My two biggest complaints have been breakfast and the lack of lighter lunch choices - with those two I can live with flex dining in the East. While I know some don’t like the dinner entrees I am ok with the ones I have had (though the enchiladas don’t look appetizing and I haven’t tried the braised beef one.) They are allowing a cafe car choice on Acela first - if they brought that to flex dining as well that would help with lunch. On the trains with VL2 diners you just stock some of the cafe car items in the VL2 galley - should be doable.


----------



## Mailliw

Agreed they need dessert options other than a brownie or blonde even if it's something as simple as a packaged yogurt parfait or fruit cocktail.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Yes the omelette meal is the same that will now be available on flex dining. The enchiladas meal also appears to be the same and the short ribs sounds similar to the braised beef on the flex meals.


From a picture posted from the youtuber "Simply_Railway" on his Instagram story, it looks to be all identical to flex dining. There are three flex dining meals shown in the post, I'm guessing they are the ribs, teriyaki, and the enchiladas.


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> Agreed they need dessert options other than a brownie or blonde even if it's something as simple as a packaged yogurt parfait or fruit cocktail.


I do agree, but when I had the Blondie, it was NOT bad! I enjoyed them.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> From a picture posted from the youtuber "Simply_Railway" on his Instagram story, it looks to be all identical to flex dining. There are three flex dining meals shown in the post, I'm guessing they are the ribs, teriyaki, and the enchiladas.


They will have the ribs which are very similar to flex dining, the same enchiladas, and a salmon option. Same tray and same black Plastic container - clearly they are standardizing on this vendor.


----------



## lordsigma

Photo of the new short ribs entree on Acela - clearly same vendor as flex dining...... with the blondee in the salad holder!


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> I do agree, but when I had the Blondie, it was NOT bad! I enjoyed them.


I actually like the blondes/brownies they serve, and I confess I actually like the jimmy dean sandwiches in the morning. Although my favorite is the brown sugar cake that’s on the auto train in the mornings.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I do agree, but when I had the Blondie, it was NOT bad! I enjoyed them.



I mean the Cheerios I had weren’t bad either...


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I actually like the blondes/brownies they serve, and I confess I actually like the jimmy dean sandwiches in the morning. Although my favorite is the brown sugar cake that’s on the auto train in the mornings.


Never bee on the Auto Train, would love to!


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I mean the Cheerios I had weren’t bad either...


I mean how do you mess up Cheerios?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The Jimmy Dean Breakfast Sandwich doesn't belong on the Acela First Class Menu, for that matter it doesnt belong on any Amtrak Train IMO.


I had the Jimmy Dean breakfast bowl on the EB coming into PDX. It was fatty and salty and after eating just a little bit of it my tummy told me 'no more of this!'

"This is the stuff of Flex Meals!"


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Photo of the new short ribs entree on Acela - clearly same vendor as flex dining...... with the blondee in the salad holder!


Very disappointing... anything that mimics the flex flop is to me disgusting. But at least in the photo it's not floating around in the salty liquid 'chemically enhanced food extender.'

But please please please... !!! Spare me from another 3" salad and brownie! They are so so so nothing!  ☹


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> I had the Jimmy Dean breakfast bowl on the EB coming into PDX. It was fatty and salty and after eating just a little bit of it my tummy told me 'no more of this!'
> 
> "This is the stuff of Flex Meals!"
> 
> View attachment 20827
> 
> 
> View attachment 20828


I don't hate them


----------



## Sidney

The Jimmy Dean Breakfast Sandwich makes the Egg McMuffin,Burger King Crossanwiches,Hardees and Wendy's breakfast sandwiches taste like gourmet meals. It's that microwaved factor.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> The Jimmy Dean Breakfast Sandwich makes the Egg McMuffin,Burger King Crossanwiches,Hardees and Wendy's breakfast sandwiches taste like gourmet meals. It's that microwaved factor.


And all the fat and sodium included there within. It's all about that congealed glutinous oily and salty fat that destroys your arteries. Uh Huh!


----------



## fdaley

Some of the stuff on the new Acela menu seems a bit downmarket for First Class (e.g. the Jimmy Dean sandwich), and if it's presented the same way it is on the LD trains, it will all seem below par. Really, if you're a well-dressed business traveler, which a lot of people in Acela First are, do you really want to be trying to manage a super greasy breakfast sandwich while the train is hurtling along at 120? It also goes back to value for the price paid. If you book a room at a Hilton or Hyatt, you'd expect breakfast options that would be somewhat better than McDonald's food still in its takeout wrapper.

In terms of the LD trains, if the flex menu will now include an omelette for breakfast, I'd definitely consider that an improvement over the current offerings. But it's the kind of improvement that maybe makes it 10 percent more likely (vs. 0 percent now) that I'd consider taking a 12- or 15-hour trip on one of these trains if I really needed to get somewhere. The whole flex concept and presentation is still just a real turnoff to me. There's no way I'd plan a cross-country family vacation with that same menu for lunch and dinner day after day.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> Some of the stuff on the new Acela menu seems a bit downmarket for First Class (e.g. the Jimmy Dean sandwich), and if it's presented the same way it is on the LD trains, it will all seem below par. Really, if you're a well-dressed business traveler, which a lot of people in Acela First are, do you really want to be trying to manage a super greasy breakfast sandwich while the train is hurtling along at 120? It also goes back to value for the price paid. If you book a room at a Hilton or Hyatt, you'd expect breakfast options that would be somewhat better than McDonald's food still in its takeout wrapper.
> 
> In terms of the LD trains, if the flex menu will now include an omelette for breakfast, I'd definitely consider that an improvement over the current offerings. But it's the kind of improvement that maybe makes it 10 percent more likely (vs. 0 percent now) that I'd consider taking a 12- or 15-hour trip on one of these trains if I really needed to get somewhere. The whole flex concept and presentation is still just a real turnoff to me. There's no way I'd plan a cross-country family vacation with that same menu for lunch and dinner day after day.



A band aid on the tummy to fix a ruptured spleen is probably a good comparable. So sorry... but those little 5" plastic dinner plates that coat the food with carcinogenic melted plastic, the 3" salad cups with three lettuce leaves and a small cherry tomato [the shaved carrot slivers were eliminated to cut costs] just have me in a place where at my advanced age don't want to waste my minutes or my money on this cheepo dorito misquito stuff ... not interested. Will find another way to spend my points... then just relegate to car trips where I have some control over the quality of the experience.

An omelet for breakfast? Followed by those 5" 5 oz disgust mini trays of chemically induced food product. No.



No.


----------



## fdaley

On the plus side, at least they have Ketel One.


----------



## Mailliw

This wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said long distance trains should serve the same quality food as First Class on the Acela.


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> This wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I said long distance trains should serve the same quality food as First Class on the Acela.


Well, that's on you for not being specific! But hey, at least they used your suggestion...


----------



## JCTakoma

I preordered the boeuf bourguignon for dinner and the penne with meatballs for lunch for my upcoming WAS-TCL in a roomettte on the Crescent.

East Coast Menu


----------



## IndyLions

Guys – just as has happened through several adjustments before – this is just more of the same.

They are putting lipstick on a pig.


----------



## Palmetto

lordsigma said:


> On the eastern trains - the Cajun shrimp and andouille sausage is coming back replacing the shrimp and lobster sauce. On the western trains the Cajun meal is being replaced by a garlic and herb cod. Both now also have the text “ask your server about today’s specials” referring to extras that won’t be on the menu.




Garlic and herb cod should be on the Eastern trains. It's practically a staple in New England.


----------



## Palmetto

Has anyone else noticed how many posts the subject of food generates here?


----------



## fdaley

IndyLions said:


> Guys – just as has happened through several adjustments before – this is just more of the same.
> 
> They are putting lipstick on a pig.



And to be fair, we're still in a pandemic and most people are refraining from nonessential travel. So for those who must travel, having an omelette selection for breakfast is definitely better than not having one. But when we get to a post-pandemic era (maybe this fall, may we hope?), a much bigger overhaul is going to be needed to win back customers.


----------



## Albi

20th Century Rider said:


> Good question... but where is a reliable source for real information vs speculation???



I will go on a 10 day trip from Omaha to Emeryville, then LA, New Orleans and NYC, riding CZ, SL and Crescent in about 4 weeks from now. I will be able to tell you then.

I must say I am hopeful, because their offerings last year (when I traveled for a week in late May) were getting boring very fast, and the portions were ridiculously small. So it can only get better, and hopefully it will.

Due to scheduling conflicts (damned 3x weekly plan) I have to take the Pacific Surfliner instead of the CS to LA. What will my options be food wise? Will be in business class. 

Everything else in sleeper, so I'll find out about the meals served there. But what about the Pacific Surfliner? Have never been on that train before, so I wonder.


----------



## Railspike

RE: Jimmy Dean Breakfast Bowl ingredients.
I was told that if you couldn't pronounce the word or didn't know what it was then you probably shouldn't be eating it. I see the egg, sausage, potato, and cheese, but all of that other stuff (preservatives I assume) is why I wouldn't touch it. It's loaded with fat and sodium. I suppose they can't call it Flex-Barfing.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Albi said:


> I must say I am hopeful, because their offerings last year (when I traveled for a week in late May) were getting boring very fast, and the portions were ridiculously small. So it can only get better, and hopefully it will.


We really gotta hope so. I will stubbornly wait till the Amtrak experience is more enjoyable before spending my precious retirement dollars for elective travel.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

JCTakoma said:


> I preordered the boeuf bourguignon for dinner and the penne with meatballs for lunch for my upcoming WAS-TCL in a roomettte on the Crescent.
> 
> East Coast Menu


You may want to change that to the Kosher food options and bring along some of your own spices to jazz things up. The meals you ordered are very small and highly processed. I've had them and ...


----------



## lordsigma

The menus are now posted on the website. It should be noted traditional dining is still there with its estimated return time.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Albi said:


> But what about the Pacific Surfliner? Have never been on that train before, so I wonder.



The Surfliner has a full cafe service. Either the Surfliner or California service used to have a few local additions like burritos, on one of thre trains years ago I had a veggie burrito that was insanely good, not sure if they are still on the menu or not.

You’ll also get a complimentary snack box in business class. The one I received had a pretty good selection of quality snacks. Trail mix, cookies, hummus and pretzels... that sort of thing.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> The menus are now posted on the website. It should be noted traditional dining is still there with its estimated return time.


Yes... good to see some change for the good... but the extremely poor flex meal program has turned me skeptical... the fish looks breaded... which means less fish and more 'extender.' Will be interesting to read the reviews from members of our forum. The Breakfast omelet looks good.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... good to see some change for the good... but the extremely poor flex meal program has turned me skeptical... the fish looks breaded... which means less fish and more 'extender.' Will be interesting to read the reviews from members of our forum. The Breakfast omelet looks good.
> 
> View attachment 20834



Of note, the Omelet is not listed as gluten free so the only GF items are Cheerios, yogurt, and kind bars.

Also... you’ll probably have to set an alarm to get an omelet, you know they’ll run out of them fast.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Of note, the Omelet is not listed as gluten free so the only GF items are Cheerios, yogurt, and kind bars.
> 
> Also... you’ll probably have to set an alarm to get an omelet, you know they’ll run out of them fast.


That is certainly going to be a problem when there is only one item on the menu that's qualitative. The reaction from others if there are only a few omelet's placed would certainly be disappointing. But can one order ahead???


----------



## lordsigma

I would not be surprised if you can choose the omlette or continental breakfast when you get the email pre-select for the dinner meals.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> I would not be surprised if you can choose the omlette or continental breakfast when you get the email pre-select for the dinner meals.


Good point... and these days ordering ahead becomes importantly the best option. 

Wondering how the flex omelet compares with the kosher omelet?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I would not be surprised if you can choose the omlette or continental breakfast when you get the email pre-select for the dinner meals.



Has anyone had success with pre-ordering meals? I remember a trip report saying that the on board staff had no knowledge of pre-ordered meals but that may have been just one trip / crew.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Has anyone had success with pre-ordering meals? I remember a trip report saying that the on board staff had no knowledge of pre-ordered meals but that may have been just one trip / crew.


With so many changes going on right now... who knows what?


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## me_little_me

Cal said:


> I do agree, but when I had the Blondie, it was NOT bad! I enjoyed them.


That's not the point with the desserts. They, along with the brownie (sister of the blondie?), have been going on now for well over a year with nothing else replacing them and nothing else added as an alternative.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> With so many changes going on right now... who knows what?





me_little_me said:


> That's not the point with the desserts. They, along with the brownie (sister of the blondie?), have been going on now for well over a year with nothing else replacing them and nothing else added as an alternative.


Yup... and the 'changes' I was referring to have been reductions in service. But we gotta hang on because I sense with a pro Amtrak commander in chief, this will get better on the rails... I hope...


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> That's not the point with the desserts. They, along with the brownie (sister of the blondie?), have been going on now for well over a year with nothing else replacing them and nothing else added as an alternative.


Fair


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Yup... and the 'changes' I was referring to have been reductions in service. But we gotta hang on because I sense with a pro Amtrak commander in chief, this will get better on the rails... I hope...


Also, isn't the new Amtrak CEO more pro-Amtrak?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Also, isn't the new Amtrak CEO more pro-Amtrak?


The more positives the better!


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> The more positives the better!


I was asking if he was or not, lol


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Has anyone had success with pre-ordering meals? I remember a trip report saying that the on board staff had no knowledge of pre-ordered meals but that may have been just one trip / crew.


I did on my recent trip - they don’t hold you to it but it does appear to at least guarentee you the option you selected. They appear to finally have it tied in because my SCA knew which meal I selected. This crew was a bit different than my last trip - on this trip the SCA told me to go pick up the meal in the dining car and either eat there or bring it back.


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## lordsigma

While I know it didn’t look appealing on the photo I posted, I liked the manicotti and I wish they’d make that a regular choice.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

The CEO of any company should be pro that company... and the present CEO is serving under a pro Amtrak President of the United States... if he's not pro enough towards Amtrak it is reasonable to think he would be replaced... I see him staying and helping Amtrak bounce back after the pandemic crisis.









Amtrak's CEO letter to Congress outlines top five priorities to improve rail


Amtrak's CEO has written to Congress outlining its top five priorities to improve and expand rail services across the U.S.




www.globalrailwayreview.com





He outlined Amtrak's 5 top priorities in a letter to congress:

1. Sufficient funding
Amtrak requires additional COVID-19 relief funding to sustain and restore operations and recall employees through the remainder of FY21 and into FY22 and beyond. In the coming weeks, Amtrak will be requesting $1.541 billion in FY21 and will outline its FY22 needs in its annual Legislative and Grant Request.

2. Intercity Passenger Rail Trust Fund
Amtrak and intercity passenger rail are the only mode of surface transportation without a federal trust fund to provide reliable, multiyear program funding. Reliance solely on the annual appropriations process for funding inhibits Amtrak’s ability to pursue large, multi-year capital projects or procurements and service expansion across the nation. If Amtrak is to significantly improve and expand its network, Amtrak suggests that congress must create a predictable and long-term source of federal funding, like a trust fund, for both the Northeast Corridor and the National Network.

3. Access to railroads for new service and adding trains
Most rail routes used by Amtrak trains are owned and controlled by freight railroads. Prompt access to the nation’s rail network is essential for Amtrak to fulfill its mission and meet the needs of the travelling public. The letter states that Amtrak always attempts to work cooperatively with its host railroads to add new routes, modify existing routes, and add additional trains. More often than not, these efforts fail to provide reasonable access for Amtrak trains, leaving Congress constituents without the services they desire and deserve. Amtrak are seeking Congressional support and updates to statute to ensure the Amtrak network can grow and serve more constituents.

4. Preference enforcement
Host railroads are required by law to provide Amtrak trains dispatching preference over their own freight trains. In the letter, Bill states that unfortunately, this requirement is not consistently honoured and “freight train interference” is the largest source of delay to Amtrak trains on host railroads, inconveniencing passengers in violation of the law. Amtrak seeks the right to bring an action in U.S. District Court when its preference right is violated so that they can ensure their customers are not unnecessarily delayed by freight trains and arrive on-time.

5. New routes
Frequent and reliable “corridor” routes, typically less than 500 miles, represent the fastest-growing segment of Amtrak service. Population growth, changing demographics and travel preferences, and environmental concerns, all point to new opportunities for intercity passenger rail. In the letter, Bill states that Amtrak have developed a visionary plan to expand service across the nation, and that they ask Congress to authorise and fund Amtrak’s expansion in such corridors by allowing them to cover most of the initial capital and operating costs of new or expanded routes prior to requiring state partner cost-sharing under Sec. 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act.


----------



## lordsigma

While I don’t want to get too off topic, one of Amtrak’s biggest challenge is going to be rebrand the Acela product to get more leisure travelers - the pre pandemic business model of the Acela is probably dead with the permanent huge decline in business travel. That probably means lower prices and maybe rebranding these as express northeast regionals.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> While I don’t want to get too off topic, one of Amtrak’s biggest challenge is going to be rebrand the Acela product to get more leisure travelers - the pre pandemic business model of the Acela is probably dead with the permanent huge decline in business travel. That probably means lower prices and maybe rebranding these as express northeast regionals.


The NEC is different as pertains to Business and Government, with New York,Boston, Philly and DC being huge Centers for both.

The New Acela equipment ( I still wish they'd call them Acela II or even Metroliners) should be put to good use once things get back to the new Normal.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> The CEO of any company should be pro that company... and the present CEO is serving under a pro Amtrak President of the United States... if he's not pro enough towards Amtrak it is reasonable to think he would be replaced... I see him staying and helping Amtrak bounce back after the pandemic crisis.


Okay yea, I just wasn't sure. Let's hope he also helps the LD services.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> I had the Jimmy Dean breakfast bowl on the EB coming into PDX. It was fatty and salty and after eating just a little bit of it my tummy told me 'no more of this!'
> 
> "This is the stuff of Flex Meals!"
> 
> View attachment 20827
> 
> 
> View attachment 20828


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Look at the amount of sodium! And multiply that times all the meals on a cross country trip! Where is Michelle Obama!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Palmetto said:


> Garlic and herb cod should be on the Eastern trains. It's practically a staple in New England.


A lot of people don't like garlic.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> While I don’t want to get too off topic, one of Amtrak’s biggest challenge is going to be rebrand the Acela product to get more leisure travelers - the pre pandemic business model of the Acela is probably dead with the permanent huge decline in business travel. That probably means lower prices and maybe rebranding these as express northeast regionals.


LOWER PRICES!


----------



## IndyLions

Ferroequinologist said:


> Look at the amount of sodium! And multiply that times all the meals on a cross country trip! Where is Michelle Obama!



My daughters are healthy eaters - and during Michelle's reign as school food czar - they absolutely HATED the changes that were implemented based on her program. Maybe they sounded good on paper - but in practice they were a disaster for those who ate at school.

We don't need food police. We just need an Amtrak that listens to customers.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

IndyLions said:


> My daughters are healthy eaters - and during Michelle's reign as school food czar - they absolutely HATED the changes that were implemented based on her program. Maybe they sounded good on paper - but in practice they were a disaster for those who ate at school.
> 
> We don't need food police. We just need an Amtrak that listens to customers.



I never ate the food that Michelle Obama promoted but I understood that she encouraged healthy eating, so that's what I was referring to. My concern about Amfood is that it is very high in sodium which I must avoid. It's outrageous that a government run business forces us to eat food that is harmful to our health.


----------



## Sidney

Flexible dining has been on the Western Amtrak trains for ten months,two to three years on the Eastern trains. We are all hoping full service dining returns in late May on the Western trains. 

Amtrak must notice the reaction to flex dining is overwhelmingly negative. The biggest complaints are the lack of healthy food offerings and the sameness of what is being offered. Yet nothing changes. Again,how hard would it be to add a big salad,sandwiches and soup?.

Is Amtrak even aware of this? People have suggested bringing your own food on board. For a day trip OK,but a cross country journey? People try to pack light. Bringing a cooler on board is cumbersome.

I love when Amtrak posts on Facebook and they tout their food. Everytime the responses are 100% negative. Again,I remind you flex dining has been in place in the East since 2018,two years before Covid.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> Again,I remind you flex dining has been in place in the East since 2018,two years before Covid.



Yes and no. The original flex dining was offered on Capitol and Lake Shore only and was much higher quality and also much healthier. 

The current version of flex dining has only been with all Eastern Trains since October 1 of 2019. 

Your point still stands that Covid didn’t cause flex dining, and I believe Amtrak always wanted to push flex dining to the western trains but was going to do it slowly.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Your point still stands that Covid didn’t cause flex dining, and I believe Amtrak always wanted to push flex dining to the western trains but was going to do it slowly.


And unfortunately, COVID is the perfect excuse to get it over with quickly. 

If flex dining is permanent on western routes, I will have much less incentive to travel on Amtrak in the future. And I'm sure many others will stop travelling with them altogether.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Flexible dining has been on the Western Amtrak trains for ten months,two to three years on the Eastern trains. We are all hoping full service dining returns in late May on the Western trains.
> 
> Amtrak must notice the reaction to flex dining is overwhelmingly negative. The biggest complaints are the lack of healthy food offerings and the sameness of what is being offered. Yet nothing changes. Again,how hard would it be to add a big salad,sandwiches and soup?.
> 
> Is Amtrak even aware of this? People have suggested bringing your own food on board. For a day trip OK,but a cross country journey? People try to pack light. Bringing a cooler on board is cumbersome.
> 
> I love when Amtrak posts on Facebook and they tout their food. Everytime the responses are 100% negative. Again,I remind you flex dining has been in place in the East since 2018,two years before Covid.



You're so right Sidney! Reaction to Amtrak's Flex dining is universally negative. Amtrak has a short video touting flex dining on YouTube. The reactions on YouTube are almost universally negative.

It should be noted that this promotional video by Amtrak is doctored up to look good... the food looks enhanced and fresh, and of course they show the on alcoholic drink that's included [whether its overnight on the Capital Limited, or three nights and four days on the Texas Eagle.] People are smart and don't like deception.

There is a disconnect between Amtrak management and the people they serve! In the comments which are posted below the video it's like the playbook for what everyone is saying in this forum... universal disgust to flex dining!


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> You're so right Sidney! Reaction to Amtrak's Flex dining is universally negative. Amtrak has a short video touting flex dining on YouTube. The reactions on YouTube are almost universally negative.
> 
> It should be noted that this promotional video by Amtrak is doctored up to look good... the food looks enhanced and fresh, and of course they show the on alcoholic drink that's included [whether its overnight on the Capital Limited, or three nights and four days on the Texas Eagle.] People are smart and don't like deception.
> 
> There is a disconnect between Amtrak management and the people they serve! In the comments which are posted below the video it's like the playbook for what everyone is saying in this forum... universal disgust to flex dining!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20874
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 20875
> 
> 
> View attachment 20876



Yep. Yet I don't see it changing any time soon. :c


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes and no. The original flex dining was offered on Capitol and Lake Shore only and was much higher quality and also much healthier.
> 
> The current version of flex dining has only been with all Eastern Trains since October 1 of 2019.
> 
> Your point still stands that Covid didn’t cause flex dining, and I believe Amtrak always wanted to push flex dining to the western trains but was going to do it slowly.



I was on one of the first eastbound runs of the Lake Shore with what was then called "contemporary" dining in June 2018. The offerings were more impressively packaged, and the quantities were larger than what's now offered as "flexible" dining, but the overall presentation, selection and food quality was a huge step down from what we'd experienced a few days earlier on our way west. There were no hot entrees for any meal. For breakfast there was only one choice, a random grab bag of yogurt cup, granola bars, glue-berry muffins etc. that didn't really add up to a meal. And of course, then as now, there was no table service, which to me means neither regimen can legitimately be called "dining." It just seemed an insult compared with what we'd received on many prior trips and considering the $700-a-night price of our bedroom. And my wife hated it even more than I did.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> I was on one of the first eastbound runs of the Lake Shore with what was then called "contemporary" dining in June 2018. The offerings were more impressively packaged, and the quantities were larger than what's now offered as "flexible" dining, but the overall presentation, selection and food quality was a huge step down from what we'd experienced a few days earlier on our way west. There were no hot entrees for any meal. For breakfast there was only one choice, a random grab bag of yogurt cup, granola bars, glue-berry muffins etc. that didn't really add up to a meal. And of course, then as now, there was no table service, which to me means neither regimen can legitimately be called "dining." It just seemed an insult compared with what we'd received on many prior trips and considering the $700-a-night price of our bedroom. And my wife hated it even more than I did.



Oh trust me I wasn’t saying contemporary dining was good. But it was better than flex. Have you had the current flex meals? I would be interested to know how you compare them.


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## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> It should be noted that this promotional video by Amtrak is doctored up to look good... the food looks enhanced and fresh, and of course they show the on alcoholic drink that's included [whether its overnight on the Capital Limited, or three nights and four days on the Texas Eagle.] People are smart and don't like deception.


Gimme a break Amtrak! Healthy food portions and healthy food are not a part of flex dining... the food on those tiny 5" melted plastic plates looks gray and wilted. And that's a mighty fine new looking table in that roomette... however most of them are broken and need to be propped up to keep the food from sliding down. Doctoring up these promos just adds more insult to frustration. Please Amtrak! Read the reactions from your customers... and let's get catering 'back on track!'


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Gimme a break Amtrak! Healthy food portions and healthy food are not a part of flex dining... the food on those tiny 5" melted plastic plates looks gray and wilted. And that's a mighty fine new looking table in that roomette... however most of them are broken and need to be propped up to keep the food from sliding down. Doctoring up these promos just adds more insult to frustration. Please Amtrak! Read the reactions from your customers... and let's get catering 'back on track!'


That's a Viewliner II, the tables are actually like that in those.


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## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> That's a Viewliner II, the tables are actually like that in those.


Looking forward to riding in one of those newest cars!


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh trust me I wasn’t saying contemporary dining was good. But it was better than flex. Have you had the current flex meals? I would be interested to know how you compare them.



Since that trip in 2018, I used up some AGR points to book rooms for day use on the Lake Shore and Crescent a total of four times pre-Covid to sample the food after reports that the offerings were being improved. Other than not being presented in a box, the breakfast seems about the same, which is to say totally inadequate in terms of quantity and protein content (unless you want the Jimmy Dean hockey puck). Of the lunch/dinner entrees, I had the chicken and fettuccine, which I think was pre-flex, served in its foil freezer tub, and the shrimp and sausage, which came in the newer black plastic tub with teeny side salad. The entrees were rather salty but edible. Quantities were on the small side, and of the course the presentation is just awful.

The dining car scene on these trips was utterly depressing to me -- fetch your own stuff, sit at a bare table, eat out of plastic tub with plastic utensils, little to no interaction with other travelers because everyone sits at their own table. Before June of '18, even the Lake Shore "diner lite" had the atmosphere of a convivial restaurant on wheels; now it's more like a bad school cafeteria. If I'm planning a family vacation after the pandemic ends and Amtrak is still offering this level of service, I'd really rather drive and find my own meals. I can't get past the fact that the Amtrak management has taken something that was one of the most fun parts of long-distance train travel and turned it into a big net negative.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Looking forward to riding in one of those newest cars!


I've seen a room tour in it, they are SO much nicer. There is an upcoming review by Simply_Railway. I can't wait!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> I've seen a room tour in it, they are SO much nicer. There is an upcoming review by Simply_Railway. I can't wait!


Nicer? Then let this set the standard for Amtrak moving forward. Let all experiences be nicer and showing of respect and appreciation to all customers. We are Amtrak patrons... and no one is more deserving all of us who have supported Amtrak with our enthusiasm... and the money we put forward to travel by rail.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Nicer? Then let this set the standard for Amtrak moving forward. Let all experiences be nicer and showing of respect and appreciation to all customers. We are Amtrak patrons... and no one is more deserving all of us who have supported Amtrak with our enthusiasm... and the money we put forward to travel by rail.


It feels more premium, if you know what I mean.


----------



## DaveW

Flex dining also must be related to staffing requirements. Last fall I was on the Empire Builder and it seemed there were 3 less employees in the dining car.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> The dining car scene on these trips was utterly depressing to me -- fetch your own stuff, sit at a bare table, eat out of plastic tub with plastic utensils, little to no interaction with other travelers because everyone sits at their own table. Before June of '18, even the Lake Shore "diner lite" had the atmosphere of a convivial restaurant on wheels; now it's more like a bad school cafeteria. If I'm planning a family vacation after the pandemic ends and Amtrak is still offering this level of service, I'd really rather drive and find my own meals. I can't get past the fact that the Amtrak management has taken something that was one of the most fun parts of long-distance train travel and turned it into a big net negative.


So many of us feel the same way... accommodation / service / food are a part of the travel experience... especially when paying for first class upgraded service. Amtrak has offensively betrayed it's most loyal patrons by simply 'walking away' from the service component while continuing to charge way above and beyond what that service is worth.

"If you want to throw a dance... you gotta pay the band!" Meaning that if Amtrak wants to offer a first class experience, it has to come up with the goods!


----------



## lordsigma

While the original cold contemporary meals may have been healthier there was a universal even more negative reaction to a menu with all cold meals. They switched to the current menu because of overwhelming bad customer reaction and feedback. I am sure the change with the omelette breakfast is also due to customer reaction. I think for most people having the hot meals is preferential to all cold options. They probably should have kept one of those cold meals as an option for people who try to eat healthier. But I think for some of us railfans, anything other than bringing back traditional dining to all trains will be inedible - I’m not saying everyone here is in that camp and I do understand why those more conscious about the ingredients in their food have an issue with it but I also think a lot of people go into it with so much anger about the cuts that there’s no way they are going to have anything other than a negative reaction. I’ve always found that if you go into a meal with such a negative attitude towards it chances are you’ll find a way not to like it. I tried to go into it with an open mind and in my opinion it’s not as big of a deal as it’s made out to be on the internet. I’m not saying that these are high quality restaurant quality meals but I’m sorry they are not inedible and I just didn’t find the traditional meals I had two years ago so good that this totally ruins train travel for me to where I want to drive. Having said all that I feel bad for the employees that got cut over it - and I do hope eventually they bring back traditional dining if only just for that reason and getting served at your table is a much better presentation for the high prices of a sleeper. Also the old menu certainly had a bigger variety of choices which is also key. The lack of a sandwich or salad choice particular at lunch remains a big problem with flex dining.


----------



## fdaley

It's not inedible -- at least the couple of flex meals I had were not, although I do find those photos of the beef and polenta rather off-putting. And certainly our reaction to it is made worse by comparing the overall experience with what came before, though I'd say that's partly because the food itself really isn't nearly as good as what came before. (And I agree that the quality of the traditional dining selections had gone down over the past decade.)

So I suppose some new person trying train travel for the first time might think the flex meals were OK if they didn't know how much better the meal service had recently been. But my sense of the market for sleeper travel is that it includes a lot of occasional riders who take a trip every year or two, and all of them would naturally compare this to what came before. How many of them tried this on one of the eastern trains before the pandemic and decided they'd rather skip Amtrak on their next trip?

There's also the issue of eliminating meal service altogether for coach passengers. Certainly on the Lake Shore I shared dining car tables with many coach travelers over the years -- and used the diner myself while riding coach on shorter trips across New York. On a trip from Albany to Rochester or Buffalo, the ability to have a full dinner en route was a big reason for me to take the LSL rather than one of the corridor trains. I don't know what portion of coach travelers opted for the Lake Shore because of the availability of meal service, but my impression on a couple of shorter trips before the pandemic was that coach ridership on the LSL was way down compared with a couple of years earlier. When I saw the train at Albany last February, just before the pandemic, it had only one coach for Boston and two for New York -- the shortest consist I had seen in the past 40 years. (In recent times, it normally had carried two coaches for Boston and three or four for New York.)


----------



## lordsigma

To me the biggest remaining issue is lunch if this omlette meal is halfway decent (haven't tried it yet). The traditional dining dinner meals (and I mean recent iteration of it not historic) never really seemed light years different than the flex dining meals other than of course the signature steak and breakfast was obviously far superior before but mainly because of the scrambled eggs - the rest of it (I could be wrong) also seemed to be pre-prepared meals in an industrial kitchen. As a recent example I had the manicotti on flex dining and the manicotti on the auto train. Other than presentation (which the auto train is obviously better coming plated instead of the plastic bowl thing) I didn't find the quality of the food all that much different. I think if they'd go with a convection oven rather than a microwave approach the current meals may come out better. Obviously the side salad is also a joke and wildly inconsistent- I cant imagine it would be a cost buster to improve those a bit. I've had it sometimes where the whole small container is full as it should be and others where there's literally two shreds of lettuce and a tomato. I think a lot of this inconsistency it about poor management and supervision and poor morale than it is about intentional sabotage of trains. If Amtrak's goal with flex dining was to kill trains why are they basically now putting it on Acela?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> But I think for some of us railfans, anything other than bringing back traditional dining to all trains will be inedible - I’m not saying everyone here is in that camp and I do understand why those more conscious about the ingredients in their food have an issue with it but I also think a lot of people go into it with so much anger about the cuts that there’s no way they are going to have anything other than a negative reaction. I’ve always found that if you go into a meal with such a negative attitude towards it chances are you’ll find a way not to like it. I tried to go into it with an open mind and in my opinion it’s not as big of a deal as it’s made out to be on the internet.



I understand where you are coming from, I shared a table with a couple on the empire builder once during the “real China” days and they did nothing but complain about how terrible Amtrak dining cars were. It was a good dining car crew and my food was very good so i felt it was clear they had already made up their mind.

But the flex dining is really bad quality in my opinion. Comparing a premade frozen omelette to omelettes made fresh on the train? 

The Amtrak diner was often considered “Denny’s / ihop” quality, and I agree. So what are the flex meals? What real world restaurant can you compare them to?


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I shared a table with a couple on the empire builder once during the “real China” days and they did nothing but complain about how terrible Amtrak dining cars were. It was a good dining car crew and my food was very good so i felt it was clear they had already made up their mind.
> 
> But the flex dining is really bad quality in my opinion. Comparing a premade frozen omelette to omelettes made fresh on the train?
> 
> The Amtrak diner was often considered “Denny’s / ihop” quality, and I agree. So what are the flex meals? What real world restaurant can you compare them to?


----------



## Sidney

You can't compare what Amtrak serves now to any restaurant. Only comparison is frozen food you can get in a supermarket. Any fast food restaurant is better than what is on Amtrak's flex dining menu.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> You can't compare what Amtrak serves now to any restaurant. Only comparison is frozen food you can get in a supermarket. Any fast food restaurant is better than what is on Amtrak's flex dining menu.



Exactly. And yet we are just going in pre-determined not to like it? I don’t think so.

I love that the new amtrak dining car standard is “it is edible.”


----------



## hlcteacher

IndyLions said:


> My daughters are healthy eaters - and during Michelle's reign as school food czar - they absolutely HATED the changes that were implemented based on her program. Maybe they sounded good on paper - but in practice they were a disaster for those who ate at school.
> 
> We don't need food police. We just need an Amtrak that listens to customers.


disagree...it was the preparation that did not work, not the changes; my child learned to eat much healthier and continues to do so to this day; we had good cooks in our district


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Reasonable requests from reasonable passengers regarding Amtrak food service! Although I may be expressing my own views, there are probably many others who feel the same way.

1 Reasonably healthy and fresh: without being overly picky; restaurant food does contain additives, extenders, fat, and sodium; but within reasonable guidelines. The food is fresh, high quality [meats, produce], and has taste and texture that make the dining experience to be enjoyable and satisfying.

2 Reasonable variety: upon discontinuation of the full service dining, all trains carried the exact same menu... everywhere and every day... few changes and little variety... all modes of transportation... ships, planes, trains in other countries... have rotating menus and special dishes reflective of holidays.

3 Reasonable food choices relevant to locational traditions: Amtrak used to have this along with a panel of chefs from various regions... and the only reason it was done away with was to cut costs.

4 reasonable quality and quantity: this speaks for itself. Few would expect to have caviar and blinis such as found on Emirates 1st class that costs thousands of dollars... and most would be very satisfied with with similar quality to a good neighborhood restaurant.

5 reasonable respect for the environment: Bring back the china and glassware... rather than throwing all the cheap plastics into land fills. Passengers who enjoy their meal on china will be willing to pay for it... however, they are already paying for expensive throw away plastic and the issue is dishwashing equipment on LD trains.

Here's what's keeping rail customers happy in other countries!









Forget Airplane Food—Let's Talk About Train Food


Airplanes aren’t the only places you can eat good food while en route—here are ten train lines that serve excellent food on board.




www.cntraveler.com


----------



## Barb Stout

fdaley said:


> There's also the issue of eliminating meal service altogether for coach passengers. Certainly on the Lake Shore I shared dining car tables with many coach travelers over the years -- and used the diner myself while riding coach on shorter trips across New York. On a trip from Albany to Rochester or Buffalo, the ability to have a full dinner en route was a big reason for me to take the LSL rather than one of the corridor trains. I don't know what portion of coach travelers opted for the Lake Shore because of the availability of meal service, but my impression on a couple of shorter trips before the pandemic was that coach ridership on the LSL was way down compared with a couple of years earlier. When I saw the train at Albany last February, just before the pandemic, it had only one coach for Boston and two for New York -- the shortest consist I had seen in the past 40 years. (In recent times, it normally had carried two coaches for Boston and three or four for New York.)


I feel so strongly that coach passengers should be able to use the dining car when it's back in service. If the sleepers are full and there aren't any slots for coach passengers in the dining car, that's one thing, but to automatically forbid coach passengers from the dining car is really bad both for the passengers and Amtrak revenue, I would think.


----------



## Sidney

Amtrak just posted on Facebook about their flex dining. In a matter of moments twenty negative replies showed up. Does Amtrak have any idea how unpopular flex dining is? Apparently not.


----------



## Cal

fdaley said:


> There's also the issue of eliminating meal service altogether for coach passengers. Certainly on the Lake Shore I shared dining car tables with many coach travelers over the years -- and used the diner myself while riding coach on shorter trips across New York. On a trip from Albany to Rochester or Buffalo, the ability to have a full dinner en route was a big reason for me to take the LSL rather than one of the corridor trains. I don't know what portion of coach travelers opted for the Lake Shore because of the availability of meal service, but my impression on a couple of shorter trips before the pandemic was that coach ridership on the LSL was way down compared with a couple of years earlier. When I saw the train at Albany last February, just before the pandemic, it had only one coach for Boston and two for New York -- the shortest consist I had seen in the past 40 years. (In recent times, it normally had carried two coaches for Boston and three or four for New York.)


I myself have met a few coach passengers in the diner as well.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Amtrak just posted on Facebook about their flex dining. In a matter of moments twenty negative replies showed up. Does Amtrak have any idea how unpopular flex dining is? Apparently not.


Oh I'm sure they do, but do they care? That's another story. 

As long as it doesn't start dramatically decreasing revenue/ridership, they won't care.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Reasonable requests from reasonable passengers regarding Amtrak food service! Although I may be expressing my own views, there are probably many others who feel the same way.
> 
> 1 Reasonably healthy and fresh: without being overly picky; restaurant food does contain additives, extenders, fat, and sodium; but within reasonable guidelines. The food is fresh, high quality [meats, produce], and has taste and texture that make the dining experience to be enjoyable and satisfying.
> 
> 2 Reasonable variety: upon discontinuation of the full service dining, all trains carried the exact same menu... everywhere and every day... few changes and little variety... all modes of transportation... ships, planes, trains in other countries... have rotating menus and special dishes reflective of holidays.
> 
> 3 Reasonable food choices relevant to locational traditions: Amtrak used to have this along with a panel of chefs from various regions... and the only reason it was done away with was to cut costs.
> 
> 4 reasonable quality and quantity: this speaks for itself. Few would expect to have caviar and blinis such as found on Emirates 1st class that costs thousands of dollars... and most would be very satisfied with with similar quality to a good neighborhood restaurant.
> 
> 5 reasonable respect for the environment: Bring back the china and glassware... rather than throwing all the cheap plastics into land fills. Passengers who enjoy their meal on china will be willing to pay for it... however, they are already paying for expensive throw away plastic and the issue is dishwashing equipment on LD trains.
> 
> Here's what's keeping rail customers happy in other countries!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forget Airplane Food—Let's Talk About Train Food
> 
> 
> Airplanes aren’t the only places you can eat good food while en route—here are ten train lines that serve excellent food on board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cntraveler.com


I agree with all your points except for the location. I don't think that is really necessary, just have variety, and food that the majority of people like.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> As a recent example I had the manicotti on flex dining and the manicotti on the auto train. Other than presentation (which the auto train is obviously better coming plated instead of the plastic bowl thing) I didn't find the quality of the food all that much different.



Where your example breaks down is that you had a choice to order food that was cooked on board the train (steak and baked potato for sure, not sure about the Cod or grilled chicken).

Depending on the crew you should have had some choice in side dishes too.

You also had the choice of 4 different desserts. 

So it wasn’t “just the presentation.”


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Where your example breaks down is that you had a choice to order food that was cooked on board the train (steak and baked potato for sure, not sure about the Cod or grilled chicken).
> 
> Depending on the crew you should have had some choice in side dishes too.
> 
> You also had the choice of 4 different desserts, possibly 5 if there was a special.
> 
> So it wasn’t “just the presentation.”


No you are right. I should say - quality of the entree itself.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> No you are right. I should say - quality of the entree itself.



And I will agree I’ve had vegetarian pasta dishes on Amtrak that were as poor in quality as the flex meals I’ve had. I remember some stuffed pasta shells on the Capitol Limited that were definitely “tv dinner” quality.

The only good pasta dish was the one made with Beechers Cheese and served on the Empire Builder and Starlight as a regional specialty. (Beechers is located in Seattle’s Pike Place.).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Amtrak just posted on Facebook about their flex dining. In a matter of moments twenty negative replies showed up. Does Amtrak have any idea how unpopular flex dining is? Apparently not.


Management is just a robotic machine. A manager on some level told another manager on another level to post something on facebook... so they did. Just like robots are supposed to do.

RE: do they know how much flex dining is detested by their travelers? How can they know if reading traveler comments in not in their job description???

That's how robots work!

But they are really good at taking passenger money and counting it!


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> It should be noted that this promotional video by Amtrak is doctored up to look good... the food looks enhanced and fresh, and of course they show the on alcoholic drink that's included



The only part of the video that I liked was "the first drink is on us" part.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> The only part of the video that I liked was "the first drink is on us" part.


Is that because it dulls the taste of what's to come?


----------



## Cal

Dakota 400 said:


> The only part of the video that I liked was "the first drink is on us" part.


Me, being under 21, like nothing about the video except the Viewliner II!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> The only part of the video that I liked was "the first drink is on us" part.



I was never offered a first drink free. 

How is it usually offered or how is one expected to order it?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was never offered a first drink free.
> 
> How is it usually offered or how is one expected to order it?


----------



## Sidney

Depends on the attendant,sleeper or dining car. They will mention it ,or you have to mention it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was never offered a first drink free.
> 
> How is it usually offered or how is one expected to order it?


Its printed everywhere... so ask for it because you are entitled... but understand this flex concept brings apathy to many of the food servers who seem to have lost any enthusiasm they have for working with passengers. Such is understandable when your service involves a poorly conceived product and you must deal with disappointed and grumpy passengers every day and all day long. It's part of the 'tiger chasing it's tale' and 'frown begets frown.' 

Cutting costs by feeding 'em Flex Food is a perfect example of the 'law of diminishing returns.'

This flex deal is one whale of a blunder on the part of Amtrak!!!


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I shared a table with a couple on the empire builder once during the “real China” days and they did nothing but complain about how terrible Amtrak dining cars were. It was a good dining car crew and my food was very good so i felt it was clear they had already made up their mind.
> 
> But the flex dining is really bad quality in my opinion. Comparing a premade frozen omelette to omelettes made fresh on the train?
> 
> The Amtrak diner was often considered “Denny’s / ihop” quality, and I agree. So what are the flex meals? What real world restaurant can you compare them to?


This one? But with much smaller serving sizes.


----------



## Asher

hlcteacher said:


> disagree...it was the preparation that did not work, not the changes; my child learned to eat much healthier and continues to do so to this day; we had good cooks in our district



And when your children learned to eat more healthy, we all benefited from it.


----------



## fdaley

20th Century Rider said:


> This flex concept brings apathy to many of the food servers who seem to have lost any enthusiasm they have for working with passengers. Such is understandable when your service involves a poorly conceived product and you must deal with disappointed and grumpy passengers every day and all day long.



This really has been true in my few experiences with contemporary/flex meals. On the Lake Shore, the dining car personnel have been uniformly sullen -- no smile, no effort at conversation, and some of them never come out from behind the counter. No doubt they take more than their share of abuse from travelers unhappy with the changes. The one exception was an attendant on the Crescent who delivered meals to our tables and really did her best to make it a pleasant experience. It still was a totally depressing meal.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> This really has been true in my few experiences with contemporary/flex meals. On the Lake Shore, the dining car personnel have been uniformly sullen -- no smile, no effort at conversation, and some of them never come out from behind the counter. No doubt they take more than their share of abuse from travelers unhappy with the changes. The one exception was an attendant on the Crescent who delivered meals to our tables and really did her best to make it a pleasant experience. It still was a totally depressing meal.


Sometimes reality is really sad. 

And... sometimes when there's enough noise... someone actually hears it.

Da ya think anyone's reading our words???


----------



## Cal

fdaley said:


> This really has been true in my few experiences with contemporary/flex meals. On the Lake Shore, the dining car personnel have been uniformly sullen -- no smile, no effort at conversation, and some of them never come out from behind the counter. No doubt they take more than their share of abuse from travelers unhappy with the changes. The one exception was an attendant on the Crescent who delivered meals to our tables and really did her best to make it a pleasant experience. It still was a totally depressing meal.


Actually, in October, I had this lovely LSA who served us on the Empire Builder. I can't remember her name, but she was in her 60s or 70s and had been in the industry for a while. 

She was really nice, and had good conversation. She did talk about the current service vs the old service. I hope she continues to work! Made the Dining Experience much nicer.


----------



## fdaley

20th Century Rider said:


> And... sometimes when there's enough noise... someone actually hears it.
> 
> Da ya think anyone's reading our words???



Well, I do think some members of Congress have gotten the message, which is how the Mica language (dictating that Amtrak food service must not lose money) got deleted last fall. It's hard to say how quickly that change in attitude percolates down to the level of Amtrak management, but I have some hope that when the pandemic recedes, someone there will remember that good food can be an amenity that attracts business.

As Sidney has pointed out, Amtrak's top managers would have to be incredibly dense not to recognize that contemporary/flex dining has drawn an overwhelmingly negative response. When I post here, though, I don't figure any of them are reading. It's more of a chance to vent and compare notes with fellow train riders.


----------



## Dakota 400

Cal said:


> Me, being under 21, like nothing about the video except the Viewliner II!



Your time will come, my young friend!


----------



## jiml

Barb Stout said:


> I feel so strongly that coach passengers should be able to use the dining car when it's back in service. If the sleepers are full and there aren't any slots for coach passengers in the dining car, that's one thing, but to automatically forbid coach passengers from the dining car is really bad both for the passengers and Amtrak revenue, I would think.


The exclusion of coach passengers is a fairly recent phenomenon. Here is an excerpt from Amtrak's last printed timetable (2018):


----------



## Dakota 400

It's difficult for me to understand the thinking behind why comments would be made on social media in praise of the dining on Amtrak. This most recent example posted on Facebook with the immediate negative comments--what was the thinking that led to the initial post? 

Is this another example of many that I have seen in recent years of some employees of a variety of companies doing "something" that helps to justify to their supervisors their continued employment?


----------



## DaveW

I consider the flex meals comparable to a grocery store frozen food section. There are many Marie Callender's frozen dinners similar in quantity and quality.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> While the original cold contemporary meals may have been healthier there was a universal even more negative reaction to a menu with all cold meals. They switched to the current menu because of overwhelming bad customer reaction and feedback. I am sure the change with the omelette breakfast is also due to customer reaction. I think for most people having the hot meals is preferential to all cold options. They probably should have kept one of those cold meals as an option for people who try to eat healthier. But I think for some of us railfans, anything other than bringing back traditional dining to all trains will be inedible - I’m not saying everyone here is in that camp and I do understand why those more conscious about the ingredients in their food have an issue with it but I also think a lot of people go into it with so much anger about the cuts that there’s no way they are going to have anything other than a negative reaction. I’ve always found that if you go into a meal with such a negative attitude towards it chances are you’ll find a way not to like it. I tried to go into it with an open mind and in my opinion it’s not as big of a deal as it’s made out to be on the internet. I’m not saying that these are high quality restaurant quality meals but I’m sorry they are not inedible and I just didn’t find the traditional meals I had two years ago so good that this totally ruins train travel for me to where I want to drive. Having said all that I feel bad for the employees that got cut over it - and I do hope eventually they bring back traditional dining if only just for that reason and getting served at your table is a much better presentation for the high prices of a sleeper. Also the old menu certainly had a bigger variety of choices which is also key. The lack of a sandwich or salad choice particular at lunch remains a big problem with flex dining.



I never thought much of Amtrak's dining car food nor the too casual service staff attitude but obviously it was far better than what is offered now. When they came out with the cold in-room meals I was surprised at the high quality of the ingredients. The cheese / cold meats offering was very good, as good as I'd expect in airline first class. They even included a half bottle of quality wine. Then they came up with the current flex meals which are as unhealthy as you can, loaded with sodium and, from my perspective, disgusting to look at. I don't expect a return to the dining car. I can accept room service for meals but the food must be dramatically improved.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

fdaley said:


> Well, I do think some members of Congress have gotten the message, which is how the Mica language (dictating that Amtrak food service must not lose money) got deleted last fall. It's hard to say how quickly that change in attitude percolates down to the level of Amtrak management, but I have some hope that when the pandemic recedes, someone there will remember that good food can be an amenity that attracts business.
> 
> As Sidney has pointed out, Amtrak's top managers would have to be incredibly dense not to recognize that contemporary/flex dining has drawn an overwhelmingly negative response. When I post here, though, I don't figure any of them are reading. It's more of a chance to vent and compare notes with fellow train riders.



I've seen a number of travel articles in which the writers gave the food good out better ratings. Were these trips compliments of Amtrak? I've often wondered about that.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

DaveW said:


> I consider the flex meals comparable to a grocery store frozen food section. There are many Marie Calendar frozen dinners similar in quantity and quality.


Perhaps comparable to the worst frozen supermarket meals. My only experience with these is Stouffer's which is better than Amtrak's but also full of sodium. Anyway we all know what to expect from Amtrak so my advice is to take as much food with you as you can. There is no problem if it's a one night trip involving dinner and possibly breakfast. You can always accept the Amtrak salad and whatever else may be decent and avoid the 'main course'. The problem occurs if you're traveling cross country. At least Amtrak offers you the chance of dieting or even fasting.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

DaveW said:


> I consider the flex meals comparable to a grocery store frozen food section. There are many Marie Calendar frozen dinners similar in quantity and quality.


Perhaps comparable to the worst frozen supermarket meals. My only experience with these is Stouffer's which is better than Amtrak's but also full of sodium. Anyway we all know what to expect from Amtrak so my advice is to take as much food with you as you can. There is no problem if it's a one night trip involving dinner and possibly breakfast. You can always accept the Amtrak salad and whatever else may be decent and avoid the 'main course'. The problem occurs if you're traveling cross country. At least Amtrak offers you the chance of dieting or even fasting.


----------



## Palmetto

Sidney said:


> Depends on the attendant,sleeper or dining car. They will mention it ,or you have to mention it.



Another fine example of inconsistent service.


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> It's difficult for me to understand the thinking behind why comments would be made on social media in praise of the dining on Amtrak. This most recent example posted on Facebook with the immediate negative comments--what was the thinking that led to the initial post?
> 
> Is this another example of many that I have seen in recent years of some employees of a variety of companies doing "something" that helps to justify to their supervisors their continued employment?


I don't go on facebook, but I would imagine they may have their fair share of "trolls"...people with nothing better to do, then to incite vigorous contrary responses...


----------



## Manny T

DaveW said:


> I consider the flex meals comparable to a grocery store frozen food section. There are many Marie Callender's frozen dinners similar in quantity and quality.



Honestly, having tried many different brands of grocery store frozen meals since they were first introduced, Amtrak's are *not comparable *to even the worst products available in an American supermarket. Ask yourself, would you eat an Amtrak flex meal and then go to the supermarket and stock up with them, fill your freezer with flex meals for home eating? 

All I want to do after eating one is forget about it.


----------



## neroden

DaveW said:


> I consider the flex meals comparable to a grocery store frozen food section. There are many Marie Callender's frozen dinners similar in quantity and quality.


Marie Callender's is typically lower in sodium. It's typically lower in sugar. It doesn't have a bunch of extra gums and additives (some of which I am allergic to). It has an ingredients list on the packages, which Amtrak slop does not.

In short, Amtrak is doing worse than it would if it supplied Marie Callender's.

THIS is the fundamental problem. Amtrak is supplying garbage. It might cost a few pennies more to get decent pre-packaged food, but Amtrak management has refused to do it. If they're going to stick with the slop they're currently providing, I would honestly prefer that they be honest, cancel food service entirely, and assist people with bringing their own food on board.


----------



## Cal

Manny T said:


> Honestly, having tried many different brands of grocery store frozen meals since they were first introduced, Amtrak's are *not comparable *to even the worst products available in an American supermarket. Ask yourself, would you eat an Amtrak flex meal and then go to the supermarket and stock up with them, fill your freezer with flex meals for home eating?
> 
> All I want to do after eating one is forget about it.


I agree. I've eaten a handful of different frozen meals. Flex meals are worse.


----------



## Sidney

I would imagine this forum is representative of our feelings towards Flex dining. I pointed out yesterday that Amtrak actually had the nerve to promote their dining on facebook,immediately followed by over a hundred negative responses....yet nothing changes. The management of Amtrak could care less.

Keep charging those sky high sleeper prices and keep serving that crap they call food. I really hope Full service dining returns on May 22 on the Western trains.

I haven't had the omelette,the cod dinner or the manicotti yet,but it"s still the same principle.


----------



## me_little_me

Ferroequinologist said:


> I've seen a number of travel articles in which the writers gave the food good out better ratings. Were these trips compliments of Amtrak? I've often wondered about that.


Give me a free trip across the country and back (plus possibly something on the side) and I'll claim flex dining is the best thing since sliced bread in my article.

Of course, I'm eminently bribable and rarely eat sliced bread. Crusty French and Italian bread, warm naan, Navaho Fried bread and more are so much better especially when pulled off the loaf instead of cut into slices.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> The management of Amtrak could care less.


And will continue to do so until long distance sleeper revenue goes down a considerable amount


----------



## jiml

neroden said:


> Marie Callender's is typically lower in sodium. It's typically lower in sugar. It doesn't have a bunch of extra gums and additives (some of which I am allergic to). It has an ingredients list on the packages, which Amtrak slop does not.
> 
> In short, Amtrak is doing worse than it would if it supplied Marie Callender's.
> 
> THIS is the fundamental problem. Amtrak is supplying garbage. It might cost a few pennies more to get decent pre-packaged food, but Amtrak management has refused to do it. If they're going to stick with the slop they're currently providing, I would honestly prefer that they be honest, cancel food service entirely, and assist people with bringing their own food on board.


Some of the Marie Callender's meals aren't that bad actually. For a late arrival at a hotel with a microwave and the only thing open nearby is a convenience store, they're a decent option. Sometimes the hotels even have them in their little "tuck shop". The problem is if Amtrak actually identified as using them people would know they were getting a $3-4 frozen meal and feel even more ripped off.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Some of the Marie Callender's meals aren't that bad actually. For a late arrival at a hotel with a microwave and the only thing open nearby is a convenience store, they're a decent option. Sometimes the hotels even have them in their little "tuck shop". The problem is if Amtrak actually identified as using them people would know they were getting a $3-4 frozen meal and feel even more ripped off.


I think people would rather have decent frozen than garbage frozen.


----------



## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> Some of the Marie Callender's meals aren't that bad actually.



Swanson's Hungry Man dinners are also good, at least the ones that I buy from time to time.


----------



## tim49424

jiml said:


> Some of the Marie Callender's meals aren't that bad actually.



I agree. I enjoy the scalloped potatoes and ham and also Salisbury steak. They are far, far better than the flex meals, however, still not the fare that should be served on the train at those prices.


----------



## Railspike

Is there anything in the $1.5B Stimulus bill that directs Amtrak to reinstate traditional dining along with daily service? Or is that left up to Amtrak's discretion? Just wondering.


----------



## TrackWalker

HR 1319 SEC. 7005. Grants to the National Railroad Passenger Corporation


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Railspike said:


> Is there anything in the $1.5B Stimulus bill that directs Amtrak to reinstate traditional dining along with daily service? Or is that left up to Amtrak's discretion? Just wondering.



How can they restore traditional dining and socially distance?


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> How can they restore traditional dining and socially distance?


They can restore the food, and serve it the same way as the Auto Train


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ferroequinologist said:


> How can they restore traditional dining and socially distance?



It doesnt appear to me that the flex dining meals are served any differently than the traditional dining meals are served “to go.” So the service would remain the same with no parties seated together and more passengers being served in their room.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

crescent-zephyr said:


> It doesnt appear to me that the flex dining meals are served any differently than the traditional dining meals are served “to go.” So the service would remain the same with no parties seated together and more passengers being served in their room.



By a return to traditional dining you mean a return to meals cooked on board with a limited number of people allowed to sit, distanced, in the dining car but most people served in their rooms? To observe the rules, there would have to be six feet between tables and no strangers seated together. I should think that would mean that every other table would have to remain empty.


----------



## jiml

By the time full dining is restored social distancing will be enforced on a state-by-state basis. 

"Sorry, two of you are going to have to take your dessert back to your room. We're leaving Texas."


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> By a return to traditional dining you mean a return to meals cooked on board with a limited number of people allowed to sit, distanced, in the dining car but most people served in their rooms? To observe the rules, there would have to be six feet between tables and no strangers seated together. I should think that would mean that every other table would have to remain empty.


Currently, they use tables even if they are next to each other. So... 

I think they should just have it like it's being served on the Auto Train right now


----------



## Exvalley

It looks like they are now offering a breakfast omelet.

The western U.S. menus have replaced the Creole shrimp meal with garlic & herb cod.

EDIT: Clarification that it is the Creole shrimp meal that has been replaced on west coast menus - not the shrimp with lobster sauce.


----------



## Cal

Exvalley said:


> It looks like they are now offering a breakfast omelet.
> 
> The western U.S. menus have replaced the shrimp meal with garlic & herb cod.


The shrimp with lobster sauce? Isn't that the best flex meal


----------



## Exvalley

Cal said:


> The shrimp with lobster sauce? Isn't that the best flex meal


No, they replaced the Creole shrimp on the west coast trains. Sorry, I should have been more specific.


----------



## Cal

Exvalley said:


> No, they replaced the Creole shrimp on the west coast trains. Sorry, I should have been more specific.


Got it


----------



## Sidney

The shrimp in lobster sauce is one of the "better" flex meals. Last time I had it the shrimp were rubbery and unedible.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> Currently, they use tables even if they are next to each other. So...
> 
> I think they should just have it like it's being served on the Auto Train right now



Then they aren't even complying with what most cities and states are mandating.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> Currently, they use tables even if they are next to each other. So...
> 
> I think they should just have it like it's being served on the Auto Train right now


What does AutoTrain do?


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> What does AutoTrain do?


Same food as pre-covid, they just have it delivered to your room. They have all the food in boxes/wrapped (main course is on plate). It's all delivered in a big white paper bag


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ferroequinologist said:


> By a return to traditional dining you mean a return to meals cooked on board with a limited number of people allowed to sit, distanced, in the dining car but most people served in their rooms? To observe the rules, there would have to be six feet between tables and no strangers seated together. I should think that would mean that every other table would have to remain empty.



Well traditional dining had both room service and table service, both can be offered now just like before, just skip seats as needed. I’m guessing the majority of passengers wish to eat in their rooms now because of safety, so there shouldn’t be a big capacity issue.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well traditional dining had both room service and table service, both can be offered now just like before, just skip seats as needed. I’m guessing the majority of passengers wish to eat in their rooms now because of safety, so there shouldn’t be a big capacity issue.


Mhm, and they still use the diner for flex dining, just no communal seating. Just continue that, simple


----------



## lordsigma

The shrimp with lobster sauce is ok - but only if it’s heated properly. Like many of the flex dining meals I think the microwave preparation is actually one of the biggest problems - if they were hearing in a convection oven these probably would come out at least somewhat better.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> The shrimp with lobster sauce is ok - but only if it’s heated properly. Like many of the flex dining meals I think the microwave preparation is actually one of the biggest problems - if they were hearing in a convection oven these probably would come out at least somewhat better.



I thought they were using a convection oven?


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought they were using a convection oven?


I don't know for sure, but the last time I had a flex meal it seemed microwaved.


----------



## Exvalley

It was definitely a convection oven on the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I don't know for sure, but the last time I had a flex meal it seemed microwaved.



The meals appear and taste like microwave meals (imho) but I believe they are cooked in a convection oven.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The meals appear and taste like microwave meals (imho) but I believe they are cooked in a convection oven.


I remember this being discussed before without a definitive answer. There were some that thought the convection ovens had been removed from the Viewliner diners. It's worth noting that these same meals are also served on trains that don't have (and have never had) convection ovens - e.g. Cardinal and 448/9.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> I remember this being discussed before without a definitive answer. There were some that thought the convection ovens had been removed from the Viewliner diners. It's worth noting that these same meals are also served on trains that don't have (and have never had) convection ovens - e.g. Cardinal and 448/9.



I thought the Amfleet II Cafes had convection ovens? They used to serve a modified “traditional” dining car menu on the Lake Shore. It was the grilled items like steaks that weren’t on the menu.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought the Amfleet II Cafes had convection ovens? They used to serve a modified “traditional” dining car menu on the Lake Shore. It was the grilled items like steaks that weren’t on the menu.


You could be right. I know the Cardinal far better than that section of the LSL, but what I've had sure tasted microwaved. The only time the Cardinal had better than a microwave was in the brief Superliner interludes - also the only time the cheeseburger wasn't the best thing on its menu.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> You could be right. I know the Cardinal far better than that section of the LSL, but what I've had sure tasted microwaved. The only time the Cardinal had better than a microwave was in the brief Superliner interludes - also the only time the cheeseburger wasn't the best thing on its menu.



The only breakfast I had on the Cardinal tasted better than microwaved. It was a French toast made with French bread. This was many years ago though so maybe they downgraded the menu before the flex.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> The only breakfast I had on the Cardinal tasted better than microwaved. It was a French toast made with French bread. This was many years ago though so maybe they downgraded the menu before the flex.



The French toast I had on the Cardinal when I rode a couple of years before the flex was not on French bread. It was, however, the best thing on the menu. I had the scrambled eggs as well on that trip thinking that they couldn’t go wrong with eggs. I won’t make that mistake again!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Convection or microwave or whatever... what matters is the quality of the food and what it's served on. When the low grade plastic they're using for those disc plates melts it becomes a carcinogenic threat. And the congealed food propped up by extender and flavor enhancer chemicals, sodium and fat, you have a lethal mix.

Those psychological feelings of disgust when you see this food and smell it... is your body instinctively telling you not ingest.

Because it is harmful.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> I don't know for sure, but the last time I had a flex meal it seemed microwaved.


When you can't tell whether the food was cooked in a convection oven or a microwave, you know it is BAD food. 

But then, when you see the list of ingredients, you know whether it is food or ingredients.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> When you can't tell whether the food was cooked in a convection oven or a microwave, you know it is BAD food.
> 
> But then, when you see the list of ingredients, you know whether it is food or ingredients.


It's pitiful that we even have to say this..


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> When you can't tell whether the food was cooked in a convection oven or a microwave, you know it is BAD food.
> 
> But then, when you see the list of ingredients, you know whether it is food or ingredients.


Or mosty chemicals.


----------



## lordsigma

All the flex meals I have ever had have been in a VL2 diner (on the silver service) so whatever they have on that car.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Convection or microwave or whatever... what matters is the quality of the food and what it's served on. When the low grade plastic they're using for those disc plates melts it becomes a carcinogenic threat. And the congealed food propped up by extender and flavor enhancer chemicals, sodium and fat, you have a lethal mix.
> 
> Those psychological feelings of disgust when you see this food and smell it... is your body instinctively telling you not ingest.
> 
> Because it is harmful.


The last one I had was ok (at least for me) but I hear you. But I do think the microwave thing can make a difference. I’ve found with leftovers there can be a huge difference between microwave and oven heated leftovers. Not saying the food quality is good but simply that - microwaving probably doesn’t help.


----------



## OBS

jiml said:


> You could be right. I know the Cardinal far better than that section of the LSL, but what I've had sure tasted microwaved. The only time the Cardinal had better than a microwave was in the brief Superliner interludes - also the only time the cheeseburger wasn't the best thing on its menu.


All Amfleet 1 and 2 cafe cars have convection ovens, including those used on the Cardinal. In regards to flex meals from the Diners, these are microwaved as the containers they are served in would melt in convection oven


----------



## jiml

OBS said:


> All Amfleet 1 and 2 cafe cars have convection ovens, including those used on the Cardinal. In regards to flex meals from the Diners, these are microwaved as the containers they are served in would melt in convection oven


My mistake I guess, although based on a conversation with our (excellent) lounge attendant on a Summer 2017 trip from Chicago to Virginia. He said they used a microwave because the containers would melt - and that was before current dining. Entrees were all casserole-type meals, including mac and cheese and pulled pork with rice - not dissimilar to today's offerings.

I just watched a review of the Cardinal from last October from Simply Railway and he was served the current flex meals, so presumably they're using a microwave now?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jiml said:


> My mistake I guess, although based on a conversation with our (excellent) lounge attendant on a Summer 2017 trip from Chicago to Virginia. He said they used a microwave because the containers would melt - and that was before current dining. Entrees were all casserole-type meals, including mac and cheese and pulled pork with rice - not dissimilar to today's offerings.
> 
> I just watched a review of the Cardinal from last October from Simply Railway and he was served the current flex meals, so presumably they're using a microwave now?


Microwaved plastics become dangerously carcinogenic... especially the low grade plastic discs holding the flex meals. That combined with the chemically processed food contained makes for a deadly concoction for human consumption. 









Can plastic be harmful if it’s melted onto food?


Answer (1 of 24): most plastics are classified as GRAS (generally regarded as safe) by the FDA. This may sound careless but consider that people eat mineral oil (which is made from crude oil), paraffin (found in cheaper chocolate) and other petroleum derivatives regularly. Some specific plastics ...




www.quora.com


----------



## RovinMoses

We're headed PDX >SEA, then Roomette to CHI on EB in two weeks. Any dining recommendations?


----------



## Sidney

You will still be stuck with the flexible menu.


----------



## RovinMoses

Sidney said:


> You will still be stuck with the flexible menu.


Yes, but is there anything in particular on that menu that you like? Any item to avoid?


----------



## Bob Dylan

RovinMoses said:


> Yes, but is there anything in particular on that menu that you like? Any item to avoid?


Avoid them all, they're basically heart attacks on a plastic plate!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

RovinMoses said:


> We're headed PDX >SEA, then Roomette to CHI on EB in two weeks. Any dining recommendations?


You can order the Kosher meals if you want... they are noted as bland... but have much more flavor and texture than the flex meals... which are noted by many as being unsatisfying; little taste, and high in sodium and fat. There is no extra charge. They are interchangeable so you can supposedly have the salmon meal for breakfast. 

Check out the kosher options below... but note that those other items from the traditional menu are not available at this time.






Menu Items – SDG | Amtrak Food Facts







amtrakfoodfacts.com


----------



## Asher

RovinMoses said:


> We're headed PDX >SEA, then Roomette to CHI on EB in two weeks. Any dining recommendations?


Bring snacks.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> I just watched a review of the Cardinal from last October from Simply Railway and he was served the current flex meals, so presumably they're using a microwave now?


Just gonna leap off topic here for a quick minute... 

Love Simply Railway, he's a great guy and produces great content. Can't wait for his review of the Silver Meteor with a Viewliner II!


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> Just gonna leap off topic here for a quick minute...
> 
> Love Simply Railway, he's a great guy and produces great content. Can't wait for his review of the Silver Meteor with a Viewliner II!


Mr. Thibault is best known for his European reviews and he works for Alstom - currently assigned to their Missouri plant I believe he said in one of his Q&A sessions.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Mr. Thibault is best known for his European reviews and he works for Alstom - currently assigned to their Missouri plant I believe he said in one of his Q&A sessions.


Yes, I saw that in a trip report of his, I believe on the Missouri River Runner...


----------



## TrackWalker

anumberone said:


> Bring snacks.



I typically carry beef jerky and hardtack.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

RovinMoses said:


> Yes, but is there anything in particular on that menu that you like? Any item to avoid?



I would avoid the braised beef. All you will taste is the salt in the sauce. The green beans are tough and in my case were inedible and the polenta is a very odd consistency. The carrots are great and the beef itself is quite tender, but again all you taste is the salt from the red wine sauce. At least in my experience. 

The other entree I have tried is the shrimp and sausage. It resembles a cheap microwaveable rice bowl you’d buy in the pantry of a hotel when you check in at midnight and need to eat something. Not great, but more edible than the beef.


----------



## Railspike

Bring snacks. AND plan ahead for simply another dining recommendaton to your question.
Have a late lunch/early dinner in Seattle before boarding. Bring fruit and breakfast pastries aboard for breakfast the next morning. Or, the 20 min stop in Whitefish at 7:15 AM might allow you to get breakfast goodies and/or lunch delivered while stopped (I think there are shops across the street from the station but not sure if they'd be open at that hour). Google to see if anyone will deliver to the station at Havre (20 min stop) at 12:45 PM for lunch and/or dinner. Ditto to see if someone will deliver dinner at Minot (20 min stop). Ditto to see if someone will deliver breakfast and/or lunch at St. Paul-Minneapolis (or if time allows, go into the station). After STPMN you're pretty much on your own to Chicago unless you Flex-dine. Again, bring snacks.

Note: You'd have to contact the vendors from the train a few minutes out via cell phone about the arrival time and your car location in the train or you could meet at the station. A late train could pose problems. You would also need to take a small YETI type container that could keep food either warm or cold. It would be great for someone to try to see if they can pull this off, even partially, and then post when/where they got food, what food was available, and the timing of the event. It might be a bit of a hassle, but if you pull it off you'd be the envy of everyone on the train. All of the above is subject to Covid-19 openings/closings of eateries.

Just another option. Good luck. Avoid Flex if you can at all cost!!!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Railspike said:


> Google to see if anyone will deliver to the station at Havre (20 min stop) at 12:45 PM for lunch and/or dinner. Ditto to see if someone will deliver dinner at Minot (20 min stop). Ditto to see if someone will deliver breakfast and/or lunch at St. Paul-Minneapolis (or if time allows, go into the station).



Whitefish MT - a few places will be open within a few blocks of the station, not seeing Uber eats availability. 

Havre MT - PJ’s is right across the street from the depot, could probably run across to pick up an order. Dominos pizza 2 blocks away. 

Minot ND - “Thai Hot”and Papa Johns pizza are both 1 block away and offer delivery. Parking lot is open direct to platform, should be easy. 

St. Paul - Access to tracks is through the large union station and down stairs / elevator - this one would be tricky - I wouldn’t try it.


----------



## Sidney

Kind of sad so many passengers feel the need to bring their own food or purchase food at the station stops. Says quite a lot for the current dining on Amtrak. Why is it so difficult to add sandwiches/subs to the menu? A lot of people don't want to eat "flex" offerings for two,three or more days straight.

Amtrak says on their website flex dining will continue on the Western trains until May 21. Does that mean we return to full service dining the next day?


----------



## Twinkletoes

I think it's going to be hard for Amtrak to go back to the "traditional dining" that preceded Flex Dining. I started riding LD passenger trains (Illinois Central and Southern) just before the dawning of the age of Amtrak. All passengers could eat in the diner. Sleeper passengers ate for “free” by signing the check, and the rest of us paid cash or credit. I had many good meals as a paying coach customer and met fascinating people at the congregate tables.

Running a restaurant on wheels—as wonderful as it was—had significant costs: storing food and supplies; staffing with cooks (chefs), steward (handled cash and got people seated), 2 waiters per car; linen napkins and tablecloths); commercial dishwasher. I’ve watched the dining services gradually implode from the time Amtrak stopped cooking “real food.”

Flex Dining has never been anything more than a euphemism for the “free meals” traditionally provided for sleeping car passengers. For a while now, other passengers have had the choices of the café car and food they bring aboard. Indeed sometimes I made the choice to get something from the Cafe Car with cash. In fact, I wish Amtrak had an option: get the "free" meal or get a Cafe car voucher that has a specified cash value.

Ultimately what is in play is the quality of the heat-and-serve food that is prepared by multitasking staff. Is it closer to airline/Acela food or the frozen meals at the grocery store? There is definitely room for improvement. I’ve noticed that some “reheaters” are inept—usually in the direction of overheating—or unaware of the typical condiments for a particular meal. I will be interested in seeing which, if any, prior dining regime will be reinstated post pandemic.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Twinkletoes said:


> I think it's going to be hard for Amtrak to go back to the "traditional dining" that preceded Flex Dining.



Should be as easy as it was to go from traditional dining to flex. Just reverse the process!


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Should be as easy as it was to go from traditional dining to flex. Just reverse the process!


...if the staff and supply chain are still available.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> ...if the staff and supply chain are still available.



I don’t believe Amtrak has changed suppliers, they just changed their order correct?


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> ...if the staff and supply chain are still available.


Well the bill is to recall all furloughed staff? That would mean the chefs, right? 

And they still have it on the Auto Train, so I would assume the supplier is available..


----------



## railiner

Twinkletoes said:


> I started riding LD passenger trains (Illinois Central and Southern) just before the dawning of the age of Amtrak. All passengers could eat in the diner. Sleeper passengers ate for “free” by signing the check, and the rest of us paid cash or credit. I had many good meals as a paying coach customer and met fascinating people at the congregate tables.


I don't recall any railroads before Amtrak, and indeed for the first few years of Amtrak, ever including meals into the sleeper fare.
And the practice of making diner's available only to sleeper passenger's, is a relatively late rule..
Perhaps you might be confused by the old railroad requirement for all diner patrons to write their menu choice on the checks? After the meal, the steward would collect from everyone, coach or sleeper passenger...


----------



## russman

Railspike said:


> Bring snacks. AND plan ahead for simply another dining recommendaton to your question.
> Have a late lunch/early dinner in Seattle before boarding. Bring fruit and breakfast pastries aboard for breakfast the next morning. Or, the 20 min stop in Whitefish at 7:15 AM might allow you to get breakfast goodies and/or lunch delivered while stopped (I think there are shops across the street from the station but not sure if they'd be open at that hour). Google to see if anyone will deliver to the station at Havre (20 min stop) at 12:45 PM for lunch and/or dinner. Ditto to see if someone will deliver dinner at Minot (20 min stop). Ditto to see if someone will deliver breakfast and/or lunch at St. Paul-Minneapolis (or if time allows, go into the station). After STPMN you're pretty much on your own to Chicago unless you Flex-dine. Again, bring snacks.
> 
> Note: You'd have to contact the vendors from the train a few minutes out via cell phone about the arrival time and your car location in the train or you could meet at the station. A late train could pose problems. You would also need to take a small YETI type container that could keep food either warm or cold. It would be great for someone to try to see if they can pull this off, even partially, and then post when/where they got food, what food was available, and the timing of the event. It might be a bit of a hassle, but if you pull it off you'd be the envy of everyone on the train. All of the above is subject to Covid-19 openings/closings of eateries.
> 
> Just another option. Good luck. Avoid Flex if you can at all cost!!!





RovinMoses said:


> We're headed PDX >SEA, then Roomette to CHI on EB in two weeks. Any dining recommendations?


I've gotten delivery from Julie's Java House in Columbus Wisconsin. They don't take credit cards though, and I arranged it in advance, sending a check with generous gratuity with a phone call the morning of delivery. I just let my attendant know it was coming and he grabbed it for me. Try the Empire Builder sandwich!  I have also had pizza delivered at Havre, MT, for myself, and the on board crew.


----------



## neroden

I will quote Willbridge from another thread:

"A while ago I described the Northern Pacific's deli buffet service on Train 408 (Lunch) and Train 407 (Supper). Train 408 was an ancestor of Amtrak Train 11, carrying the SEA>OAK sleepers. It took one person in the kitchen and one person at the counter, carrying meals for people who needed help and cleaning up. At peaks there was an extra board attendant doing the cleaning/clearing. On my last ride on the NP, going home for Christmas leave in 1968, the counter man was pleased that the GI's cleared their own tables! With a kitchen crew of one they provided fresh sandwiches, soups and salads. I think desserts were packaged (I know ice cream specialties were.).

"It seemed that the customers liked it even though it had a smaller crew than the full dining car that it replaced. And it was the same size crew as on the much-hated SP Automat cars."

This would be a fine service. It wouldn't be traditional dining, but it would be orders of magnitude better than what they've been doing lately.


----------



## RRrich

I used to be quite active on this forum AND I used to ride Amtrak at every opportunity, After reading the above hate thread about flex-dining and seeing some rather heavy handed editing, I think I let sleeping dogs lie and go bye bye SEE YA


----------



## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> I will quote Willbridge from another thread:
> 
> "A while ago I described the Northern Pacific's deli buffet service on Train 408 (Lunch) and Train 407 (Supper). Train 408 was an ancestor of Amtrak Train 11, carrying the SEA>OAK sleepers. It took one person in the kitchen and one person at the counter, carrying meals for people who needed help and cleaning up. At peaks there was an extra board attendant doing the cleaning/clearing. On my last ride on the NP, going home for Christmas leave in 1968, the counter man was pleased that the GI's cleared their own tables! With a kitchen crew of one they provided fresh sandwiches, soups and salads. I think desserts were packaged (I know ice cream specialties were.).
> 
> "It seemed that the customers liked it even though it had a smaller crew than the full dining car that it replaced. And it was the same size crew as on the much-hated SP Automat cars."
> 
> This would be a fine service. It wouldn't be traditional dining, but it would be orders of magnitude better than what they've been doing lately.



This is also pretty close to the original Cross Country Cafe setup which had lots of promise imho. 1 in the kitchen, 1 LSA that served as both Diner and Cafe LSA and then 1 or 2 servers.

If you did take out only you could have the sleeping car attendants take the orders ahead of time, and either deliver the orders or if you want to eat in the diner you “pick-up” your pre-ordered meal at the counter at the set time.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Better employee utilization is a must. The easiest fix increase dining car hours 6am to 230pm and 430pm to 8pm. There’s no need for the diner to be closed 9am to noon as it is/was in most cases. I’m personally a early riser but I know a lot of people aren’t, someone like my mom would enjoy coffee early and a leisurely brunch meal at 10:30 or 11am I’m sure a lot of seniors would. I don’t see a need for the 24 hour dining car but 12 hours plus as above would work. The employees are already on the train why not expand hours.

Another way to better utilize employees is officially have sleeper attendants pitch in more and hold them accountable to. I probably had 60 trips in the Parlour car from SJC/LAX/SJC. Sometimes a sleeper attendant helped with wine tasting and serving food other times it was just the Parlour car attendant. No rhyme or reason. I got the feeling the ones that helped out, helped out because they wanted to not because they were required. Probably the same as it is now with flexible. Some help more then just doing room service to their sleepers.

The unions should play ball if management presented a well thought out proposal that would save the dining and all current jobs.


----------



## Cal

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Better employee utilization is a must. The easiest fix increase dining car hours 6am to 230pm and 430pm to 8pm. There’s no need for the diner to be closed 9am to noon as it is/was in most cases. I’m personally a early riser but I know a lot of people aren’t, someone like my mom would enjoy coffee early and a leisurely brunch meal at 10:30 or 11am I’m sure a lot of seniors would. I don’t see a need for the 24 hour dining car but 12 hours plus as above would work. The employees are already on the train why not expand hours.
> 
> Another way to better utilize employees is officially have sleeper attendants pitch in more and hold them accountable to. I probably had 60 trips in the Parlour car from SJC/LAX/SJC. Sometimes a sleeper attendant helped with wine tasting and serving food other times it was just the Parlour car attendant. No rhyme or reason. I got the feeling the ones that helped out, helped out because they wanted to not because they were required. Probably the same as it is now with flexible. Some help more then just doing room service to their sleepers.
> 
> The unions should play ball if management presented a well thought out proposal that would save the dining and all current jobs.


I agree, customer service needs to be improved. It's so inconsistent. 

As for the diner, It think 6-11 AM, 12-4 Pm, and 5-8 PM would be fine times. It only has two, one hour breaks.


----------



## jruff001

Cal said:


> I agree, customer service needs to be improved. It's so inconsistent.
> 
> As for the diner, It think 6-11 AM, 12-4 Pm, and 5-8 PM would be fine times. It only has two, one hour breaks.


There is prep work before, and cleanup work after, each meal, especially in the kitchen. This schedule essentially has the kitchen crew working from 5 AM to 9 or 10 PM with no break.


----------



## Cal

jruff001 said:


> There is prep work before, and cleanup work after, each meal, especially in the kitchen. This schedule essentially has the kitchen crew working from 5 AM to 9 or 10 PM with no break.


The original schedule only has a break between 2:30 and 4:30. Which would probably go to cleanup/preparation. 

Now, that's not to say mine is perfect/good


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> There is prep work before, and cleanup work after, each meal, especially in the kitchen. This schedule essentially has the kitchen crew working from 5 AM to 9 or 10 PM with no break.



The original cross country cafe offered Breakfast, an all day menu from 11 AM to closing, and a dinner menu from 5-9 pm. So it can be done.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> The original cross country cafe offered Breakfast, an all day menu from 11 AM to closing, and a dinner menu from 5-9 pm. So it can be done.


They must have had 2 in the kitchen with that plan.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

OBS said:


> They must have had 2 in the kitchen with that plan.



It seems doubtful, the plan was to reduce staff by having only the 1 food service car. But I wasn’t down there so I don’t know for sure.

Why would the chef need to work less hours than the lsa?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Here’s the Cross country Cafe menu - 2009.

(At the time this was the worst thing Amtrak could do... combine the diner and cafe into 1 car!)

http://www.atdlines.com/pdf/cafe.pdf


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s the Cross country Cafe menu - 2009.
> 
> (At the time this was the worst thing Amtrak could do... combine the diner and cafe into 1 car!)
> 
> http://www.atdlines.com/pdf/cafe.pdf
> 
> View attachment 21010


Now we consider that the good old days. A wide variety of food. Ability to have the big meal at lunch and a smaller one at dinner. Real breakfast or just something simple. 

But most of all, a LOT of dessert choices.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

What I also liked about the menu posted above was inexpensive items were available for dinner (burger/veggie burger). This was a huge issue before dining was discontinued. I can’t tell you how many times people seated with or across from us asked to order the hot dog off the kids menu. Like everything else it was 50/50 if the LSA would sell it to them.

As far as management listening to feedback. LOL. Food service may very well be this management’s downfall as it is and will continue to affect the bottom line. Buttigeg won’t be an empty suit like Chao was.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> It seems doubtful, the plan was to reduce staff by having only the 1 food service car. But I wasn’t down there so I don’t know for sure.
> 
> Why would the chef need to work less hours than the lsa?


The main concern being who will cook when the chef is on breaks for his/her meal, etc.
They may have had 2 people if they were using china etc.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Maybe make announcements for breaks like the lounge attendant does. That’s a great example of one position at Amtrak that generally works their tail off from 6am to 11pm. Close the diner for 3 announced 1 hour breaks for the dining crew.
With 15 long distance trains all sorts of experiments could/can be done over a 6 month period with a winner chosen each for western and eastern trains. I think everyone’s on agreement there is a difference between a sub 24 hour train and the western trains.


----------



## fdaley

The need is clearly greater on the western trains, but in the east, the Crescent is about 30 hours end to end, and the Cardinal, Star and Meteor are all more than 24 hours. And the Lake Shore and Capitol are long enough that they require something far better than the current level of service before I'd want to ride them myself, let alone recommend them to anyone.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

OBS said:


> The main concern being who will cook when the chef is on breaks for his/her meal, etc.
> They may have had 2 people if they were using china etc.



No the cross country cafe did not use China, I remember that. 

The chef would take the same breaks as the LSA. So there would be no concern.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s the Cross country Cafe menu - 2009.
> 
> (At the time this was the worst thing Amtrak could do... combine the diner and cafe into 1 car!)
> 
> http://www.atdlines.com/pdf/cafe.pdf
> 
> View attachment 21010


Wish we still had menus like this, with lots of options, decent food, and an actual menu...


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

I’d settle for decent food. No actually just edible. No way we’re spending $4000 plus RT for our usual summer Galesburg to Lax trip to see family. The food is the highlight of the trip for my wife and 2 kids. Our 3 year old wouldn’t even eat what’s being served now. And did I say $4000 RT that’s only if I look around for a decent price on the family bedroom. I’ve seen the actual bedroom $3400 one way the past 12 months. United/AA/Spirit are still selling seats Chicago to LAX nonstop for $49, how out of touch is Amtrak? Covid or not. This whole thing just upsets me

*“Wish we still had menus like this, with lots of options, decent food, and an actual menu..”*


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> What I also liked about the menu posted above was inexpensive items were available for dinner (burger/veggie burger). This was a huge issue before dining was discontinued.



Yes. I remember the burger, veggie burger and entree salad being offered as part of the dinner menu on many long distance trains. This was great for passengers on a budget as well as picky eaters who just wanted something basic for dinner.


----------



## Dakota 400

jruff001 said:


> There is prep work before, and cleanup work after, each meal, especially in the kitchen.



Your post is a good one for people to keep in mind. Prep and clean-up is not quickly or easily done at times.

Personally, I am a late diner and would prefer the dining car remaining open later than 8:00 P. M. I'd prefer 9:00 P. M. 6:00 A. M. is much too early for me for breakfast. 7:00 or 7:30 A. M. would be fine for me. The "early birds" could go to the Lounge Car for their early morning cup of coffee. (Or, let's have the SCA deliver one's choice of coffee or juice when one arises? The service was once available.)


----------



## IndyLions

TrackWalker said:


> I typically carry beef jerky and hardtack.


Sorry - I’d take a Flex meal over that. Yikes...


----------



## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> The "early birds" could go to the Lounge Car for their early morning cup of coffee. (Or, let's have the SCA deliver one's choice of coffee or juice when one arises? The service was once available.)


Used to be available right in your sleeper - self-serve.


----------



## Sidney

Amtrakfflyer said:


> I’d settle for decent food. No actually just edible. No way we’re spending $4000 plus RT for our usual summer Galesburg to Lax trip to see family. The food is the highlight of the trip for my wife and 2 kids. Our 3 year old wouldn’t even eat what’s being served now. And did I say $4000 RT that’s only if I look around for a decent price on the family bedroom. I’ve seen the actual bedroom $3400 one way the past 12 months. United/AA/Spirit are still selling seats Chicago to LAX nonstop for $49, how out of touch is Amtrak? Covid or not. This whole thing just upsets me
> 
> *“Wish we still had menus like this, with lots of options, decent food, and an actual menu..”*


I'm taking the Capitol Limited and Te xas Eagle to LA in May from BWI. Low bucket coach to Chi and sleeper to LAX $700. Flying back to BWI on Southwest for $49.


----------



## fdaley

Amtrakfflyer said:


> No way we’re spending $4000 plus RT for our usual summer Galesburg to Lax trip to see family. The food is the highlight of the trip for my wife and 2 kids. Our 3 year old wouldn’t even eat what’s being served now.



This is exactly the kind of business that will be disappearing if dining service doesn't come back. Even worse, some people who've traveled in the past may book family vacations without knowing how bad the current food is; then they return home saying, "Never again." The reputational damage will build over time if nothing is done.


----------



## Cal

fdaley said:


> This is exactly the kind of business that will be disappearing if dining service doesn't come back. Even worse, some people who've traveled in the past may book family vacations without knowing how bad the current food is; then they return home saying, "Never again." The reputational damage will build over time if nothing is done.


I've seen countless videos on YouTube saying something along the lines of "That trip looks so good, I am gonna try to take one" or "Can't wait for my trip". Can't imagine how irritated those people would/will be when they see the dining...


----------



## TrackWalker

TrackWalker said:


> I typically carry beef jerky and hardtack.





IndyLions said:


> Sorry - I’d take a Flex meal over that. Yikes...



It's part of my pioneer spirit when traveling cross country. (No, not that Pioneer.)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Or, let's have the SCA deliver one's choice of coffee or juice when one arises? The service was once available.



Still available as of October 2019 when I rode the Metoer.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Still available as of October 2019 when I rode the Metoer.


I don't know if anything from pre-2020 is applicable today


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I don't know if anything from pre-2020 is applicable today



Yeah I’m not sure what is available with covid restrictions. This was after Flex Dining though.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yeah I’m not sure what is available with covid restrictions. This was after Flex Dining though.


Well, the coffee and juice station, as you probably know, wasn't available since COVID so.


----------



## CTANut

Sidney said:


> I m hoping full service dining returns in May. If not,Amtrak..please offer other food like sandwiches soups or full salads! Do they have any idea how unpopular this flexible dining is?
> ..


Seems like it might if the staff are called back.
(c) Long-Distance Service Restoration And Employee Recalls.—Not less than $165,926,000 of the aggregate amounts made available under subsections (a) and (b) shall be for use by the National Railroad Passenger Corporation to—
(1) restore, not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the frequency of rail service on long-distance routes (as defined in section 24102 of title 49, United States Code) that the National Railroad Passenger Corporation reduced the frequency of on or after July 1, 2020, and continue to operate such service at such frequency; and
*(2) recall and manage employees furloughed on or after October 1, 2020, as a result of efforts to prevent, prepare for, and respond to coronavirus.*


----------



## Exvalley

It would certainly be a bad PR move for Amtrak to recall all of their employees but not restore the level of service that they had prior to the furloughs. That said, they can still justify restrictions on seating in the diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> That said, they can still justify restrictions on seating in the diner.



I’m sure the majority of sleeping car passengers will choose to eat in their room right now... I know I would.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

On the flip side bring cooks and servers (at least most of them) back, work on basic cooked to order meal service which most of the passengers would eat in their rooms for now. Experiment with basic hot food service without a packed the gils diner. Maybe start with 3 items each meal. They need to work on the food obviously but also an appropriate presentation with minimum waste in packaging it to from tables and or rooms.

I heard many complaints about the waste and non recycylebility of the originally contemporary/flex dining presentation. No better time then the present to experiment with new concepts while we are in a lull.



Exvalley said:


> It would certainly be a bad PR move for Amtrak to recall all of their employees but not restore the level of service that they had prior to the furloughs. That said, they can still justify restrictions on seating in the diner.


----------



## me_little_me

I looked at the ($4000+ grossly overpriced) R/T sleeper fare from WV to Glenwood Springs in June and it showed "Traditional Dining" for the Zephyr and "garbage food" for the Cardinal.
I'm hoping that they'll soon announce a full schedule and I can quickly make a reservation at a significantly lower price but there is no hope for real food (except perhaps kosher) on the Cardinal.


----------



## fdaley

CTANut said:


> (2) recall and manage employees furloughed on or after October 1, 2020, as a result of efforts to prevent, prepare for, and respond to coronavirus.



The switch to flex dining on the western trains happened at the beginning of the pandemic, well before October 2020, so I don't think this language guarantees any restoration of dining service. It does cover employees cut because of the switch to thrice-weekly operations.


----------



## Cal

fdaley said:


> The switch to flex dining on the western trains happened at the beginning of the pandemic, well before October 2020, so I don't think this language guarantees any restoration of dining service. It does cover employees cut because of the switch to thrice-weekly operations.


Yea, however are they going to bring back the servers and cooks to prepare microwave food?


----------



## OBS

Cal said:


> Yea, however are they going to bring back the servers and cooks to prepare microwave food?


Just because they bring them back doesn't mean they are guaranteed to return to same positions. They may end up as coach attendants or sleeper attendants....


----------



## Cal

OBS said:


> Just because they bring them back doesn't mean they are guaranteed to return to same positions. They may end up as coach attendants or sleeper attendants....


I hope not..


----------



## lordsigma

See trains magazine article....Amtrak plans to return traditional dining with daily service. Some things have not yet been figured out - such as communal dining and the public health implications - but the executive said they plan to start with the food preparation side of it - you may have to take your meals in your room for instance.


----------



## jis

This may require a subscription to Trains to get access to. But just placing this here for those that may have access. It basically says, among other things, that restoration of full Dining service within the contraints imposed by COVID, in conjunction with LD service restoration is under serious consideration...









As Amtrak restores long-distance service, best prices are on 'new' dates - Trains


WASHINGTON — Anyone ready to lock in summer travel plans that involve long-distance trains will find lower fares on days that have had no service since last October. Amtrak wasted no time Wednesday in complying with marching orders from Congress in the just-passed economic stimulus legislation...




www.trains.com





Fair quote:


> Amtrak plans to restore “traditional” dining car meals with the daily frequencies, Harris says, “but we’re not quite sure yet how to work through the health implications. Communal dining is probably a non-starter for now, and you can work backward through food preparation and delivery.”
> 
> He says Amtrak’s new head of customer service, Robert Jordan, “is very interested in the topic and is going through the process of inviting employee input to make it better.”
> 
> “It’s important to figure this out because it involves the recall of employees for the daily service this summer, so it’s a rather intertwined process,” Harris says. “There will be some food service decisions in the coming months but there will be further developments in the next year, as we get our new team really focused on this.”


----------



## CTANut

I'm confused about people requiring you to eat in your room. When I rode on Amtrak, you were allowed to eat in the dining car or in your room. Is it just on selected trains? (I rode December 21-23,2020 on the southwest chief).


----------



## fdaley

The report in Trains is one of the more hopeful things I've seen in awhile. At the least, it appears to mean that the "traditional dining" level of on-board food preparation -- and menu selections -- will be restored to the western trains when daily service is restored, even if many sleeper passengers wind up being served in their rooms initially because of Covid concerns.

The story also includes this quote from Roger Harris, who is identified as Amtrak's chief marketing and revenue officer:
“There will be some food service decisions in the coming months but there will be further developments in the next year, as we get our new team really focused on this.”
Could this mean that something better is in the works for the eastern LD trains as well?


----------



## jis

In what Harris said according to the Trains Wire report, there is no specific mention of Western or Eastern train. Just something to note. I don't know what it may or may not mean.


----------



## TheVig

At this point, I'd be fine with a stale twinkie.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

CTANut said:


> I'm confused about people requiring you to eat in your room. When I rode on Amtrak, you were allowed to eat in the dining car or in your room. Is it just on selected trains? (I rode December 21-23,2020 on the southwest chief).



Agreed. For some reason there are people who think “traditional dining” automatically equals stuff the booths with strangers even when you have plenty of empty tables available....

If that part of traditional dining never comes back I’ll be happy. 

I could care less if table service comes back to be honest - I just want food that I actually want to eat!


----------



## Cal

fdaley said:


> The report in Trains is one of the more hopeful things I've seen in awhile. At the least, it appears to mean that the "traditional dining" level of on-board food preparation -- and menu selections -- will be restored to the western trains when daily service is restored, even if many sleeper passengers wind up being served in their rooms initially because of Covid concerns.
> 
> The story also includes this quote from Roger Harris, who is identified as Amtrak's chief marketing and revenue officer:
> “There will be some food service decisions in the coming months but there will be further developments in the next year, as we get our new team really focused on this.”
> Could this mean that something better is in the works for the eastern LD trains as well?


I sure hope so!


----------



## Cal

I don't understand how people are so confused on how traditional dining will come back. To me it's pretty clear, they will do it the same way they are currently doing it on the Auto Train, or similar. Basically have traditional dining come the same way flex dining does to your room. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. For some reason there are people who think “traditional dining” automatically equals stuff the booths with strangers even when you have plenty of empty tables available....
> 
> If that part of traditional dining never comes back I’ll be happy.


Disagree. Even though I don't necessarily talk as much, I really enjoy dining with other passengers. It's a unique experience you get to have on the train, and you here some great stories! 

Now, I wouldn't be opposed if you could ask to dine at your own table or with your party only. But I hope that communal seating isn't gone forever!


----------



## tonijustine

CTANut said:


> I'm confused about people requiring you to eat in your room. When I rode on Amtrak, you were allowed to eat in the dining car or in your room. Is it just on selected trains? (I rode December 21-23,2020 on the southwest chief).



Technically speaking, I think you've always had those two options, but when eating in the diner pre-COVID, it was a communal experience. You would be sat with people with whom you weren't traveling if there was room at the table. The loss of this communal experience led many to just take their meals to their rooms. Of course, this also could be the consistent lack of consistency from Amtrak, also. 

The communal dining is unlikely to be coming back. It violates the concept of social distancing which can't be mitigated by mask usage because you can't eat, drink and mask all at the same time. So, my guess is that the diner will be back on-line, and maybe even the dining car open to seating, but there will be no communal dining--only people from the same party will be able to sit together. That will reduce the diner's capacity. Capacity will be further reduced if they only seat every other table.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> I don't understand how people are so confused on how traditional dining will come back. To me it's pretty clear, they will do it the same way they are currently doing it on the Auto Train, or similar. Basically have traditional dining come the same way flex dining does to your room.
> 
> 
> Disagree. Even though I don't necessarily talk as much, I really enjoy dining with other passengers. It's a unique experience you get to have on the train, and you here some great stories!
> 
> Now, I wouldn't be opposed if you could ask to dine at your own table or with your party only. But I hope that communal seating isn't gone forever!


It may mean to return to the same type of service the trains had pre-COVID. In that case, flex meals on the eastern terrains.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

“as we get our new team really focused on this.”

That was the most promising part of the article to me...


----------



## fdaley

AmtrakBlue said:


> It may mean to return to the same type of service the trains had pre-COVID. In that case, flex meals on the eastern terrains.



That's how I read it.


----------



## fdaley

Amtrakfflyer said:


> “as we get our new team really focused on this.”
> 
> That was the most promising part of the article to me...



My hopeful translation of this is: We realize we have a problem and are trying to figure out what to do about it.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> It may mean to return to the same type of service the trains had pre-COVID. In that case, flex meals on the eastern terrains.


I had the western trains in mind


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tonijustine said:


> The loss of this communal experience led many to just take their meals to their rooms.



Or it could be the fact that we are in global pandemic and it’s safer to eat in your room right now. Ha. 



tonijustine said:


> So, my guess is that the diner will be back on-line, and maybe even the dining car open to seating, but there will be no communal dining--only people from the same party will be able to sit together. That will reduce the diner's capacity.



The physical diners never went “off line” and they are open for seating even as I type and always have been.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> The physical diners never went “off line” and they are open for seating even as I type and always have been.


The Cardinal did not allow eating in the cafe/diner back in Sept but that was understandable since it doesn’t have a “real” diner. I was able to eat in the CZ’s diner.


----------



## Dakota 400

Amtrakfflyer said:


> “as we get our new team really focused on this.”



A promising statement, just as long as the new team members are qualified for their job and have had some travel, preferably rail travel, experience.



Cal said:


> I really enjoy dining with other passengers. It's a unique experience you get to have on the train, and you here some great stories!
> [/QUOTE)
> 
> This is a part of rail travel that one does not experience when one flies. Seat mates, maybe a conversation or two with other passengers prior to boarding the plane: that's about it.
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could care less if table service comes back to be honest - I just want food that I actually want to eat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Food that is properly prepared, tastes and looks good, and is as nutritious as possible surely is important. Good table service is part of an enjoyable meal as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Cardinal did not allow eating in the cafe/diner back in Sept but that was understandable since it doesn’t have a “real” diner. I was able to eat in the CZ’s diner.


I was able to eat in the Starlight's and Builder's diner. This month I expect to be able to eat in the diner as well


----------



## Twinkletoes

railiner said:


> I don't recall any railroads before Amtrak, and indeed for the first few years of Amtrak, ever including meals into the sleeper fare.
> And the practice of making diner's available only to sleeper passenger's, is a relatively late rule..
> Perhaps you might be confused by the old railroad requirement for all diner patrons to write their menu choice on the checks? After the meal, the steward would collect from everyone, coach or sleeper passenger...


I do remember the old practice of having diners write out their orders on the check, but unless I am truly not getting it right, I remember that on some early occasions when I took a sleeper, I just wrote down my car and room number. I rarely took sleepers in the pre-Amtrak era, and early Amtrak resembled the old ways, so I may have blended experiences.


----------



## jiml

Twinkletoes said:


> I do remember the old practice of having diners write out their orders on the check, but unless I am truly not getting it right, I remember that on some early occasions when I took a sleeper, I just wrote down my car and room number. I rarely took sleepers in the pre-Amtrak era, and early Amtrak resembled the old ways, so I may have blended experiences.


They used to have 4 BIC pens in a plastic cup on every table. Not that long ago either.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> They used to have 4 BIC pens in a plastic cup on every table. Not that long ago either.


Yeah, every LD train I've been on before COVID had those. We would write our car number and I believe room on the slip of paper, with our order on it too. There was always a paper cup with pens in it at the table..


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Yeah, every LD train I've been on before COVID had those. We would write our car number and I believe room on the slip of paper, with our order on it too. There was always a paper cup with pens in it at the table..



A personal observation - on the east coast (New York and Miami Crew Based trains) the LSA or Server would ask you your room and car number, fill out the check and just ask you to sign it. I always appreciated this as it seemed more professional and classy to me.


----------



## PaTrainFan

crescent-zephyr said:


> A personal observation - on the east coast (New York and Miami Crew Based trains) the LSA or Server would ask you your room and car number, fill out the check and just ask you to sign it. I always appreciated this as it seemed more professional and classy to me.



This was the traditional way in the "old days" of railroading. As is in pre-Amtrak.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PaTrainFan said:


> This was the traditional way in the "old days" of railroading. As is in pre-Amtrak.



Actually... the “traditional way” was for the customer to fill out the check completely.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> A personal observation - on the east coast (New York and Miami Crew Based trains) the LSA or Server would ask you your room and car number, fill out the check and just ask you to sign it. I always appreciated this as it seemed more professional and classy to me.


Well, that's actually what I meant. I just worded it terribly, apologies!


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> A personal observation - on the east coast (New York and Miami Crew Based trains) the LSA or Server would ask you your room and car number, fill out the check and just ask you to sign it. I always appreciated this as it seemed more professional and classy to me.


Not necessarily. I signed it but they never gave me a copy like they were supposed to. They probably got a lot of free meals out of that. Say, you didn't want a meal or a drink but just wanted dessert. They'd mark you for having a meal and they got a free one. Same for not wanting the dessert. Wonder how many free beers they got during Covid by neglecting to mention you got one free or if you declined it.
I don't begrudge them if Amtrak is making them pay for flex meals like I heard. That alone makes them deserve "hazardous food pay" but they were supposed to give you a copy of the receipt so they couldn't edit it afterwards and I never got one but never pushed the issue.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Not necessarily. I signed it but they never gave me a copy like they were supposed to. They probably got a lot of free meals out of that. Say, you didn't want a meal or a drink but just wanted dessert. They'd mark you for having a meal and they got a free one. Same for not wanting the dessert. Wonder how many free beers they got during Covid by neglecting to mention you got one free or if you declined it.
> I don't begrudge them if Amtrak is making them pay for flex meals like I heard. That alone makes them deserve "hazardous food pay" but they were supposed to give you a copy of the receipt so they couldn't edit it afterwards and I never got one but never pushed the issue.



I think you’re talking about a different check / system. I’m talking about pre-flex with traditional dining. 

I don’t remember signing anything for my flex meal(s) on the Meteor- I think it’s a different system now.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Well, that's actually what I meant. I just worded it terribly, apologies!



No you described what was standard on the western trains. The bic pens in a coffee cup on the table. I think all of the Chicago and LA crews did this in my experience.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> No you described what was standard on the western trains. The bic pens in a coffee cup on the table. I think all of the Chicago and LA crews did this in my experience.


Oh.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think you’re talking about a different check / system. I’m talking about pre-flex with traditional dining.
> 
> I don’t remember signing anything for my flex meal(s) on the Meteor- I think it’s a different system now.


I was talking about pre-flex traditional meals. Originally, you filled out the form then they changed and they took your order AFTER you had to sign and put your room number on it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> I was talking about pre-flex traditional meals. Originally, you filled out the form then they changed and they took your order AFTER you had to sign and put your room number on it.



I’ve been on a lot of Amtrak trains and have never seen it done that way. They’ve always had you sign before your order was taken. 

On the western trains, they would typically ask you to fill out the car and room number as well as sign it. 

On the New York and Miami crew base trains, they would ask your room and car number and then have you sign your name.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve been on a lot of Amtrak trains and have never seen it done that way. They’ve always had you sign before your order was taken.
> 
> On the western trains, they would typically ask you to fill out the car and room number as well as sign it.
> 
> On the New York and Miami crew base trains, they would ask your room and car number and then have you sign your name.


I've never seen it done that way either


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve been on a lot of Amtrak trains and have never seen it done that way. They’ve always had you sign before your order was taken.
> 
> On the western trains, they would typically ask you to fill out the car and room number as well as sign it.
> 
> On the New York and Miami crew base trains, they would ask your room and car number and then have you sign your name.


You don't remember when you had to fill out (check the block, IIRC) the form? Long time back. THey always got ticked off when you did it wrong. That's why they probably abandoned it. A few times, they got so frustrated, they asked me to give it to them to do but they were not supposed to do that per the waiters.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> You don't remember when you had to fill out (check the block, IIRC) the form? Long time back. THey always got ticked off when you did it wrong. That's why they probably abandoned it. A few times, they got so frustrated, they asked me to give it to them to do but they were not supposed to do that per the waiters.



Oh I’m not going back that far! Yes the check the box checks was the standard pre-Amtrak style. That had to with racial issues and it held over to the Amtrak days “cause that’s how we’ve always done it” 

I’m talking about the standard Amtrak checks that have been used in traditional dining for the past 20+ years.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh I’m not going back that far! Yes the check the box checks was the standard pre-Amtrak style. That had to with racial issues and it held over to the Amtrak days “cause that’s how we’ve always done it”
> 
> I’m talking about the standard Amtrak checks that have been used in traditional dining for the past 20+ years.





They would usually be waiting with the place setting when you were seated.


----------



## railiner

They way I recall pre-Amtrak times, was that each passenger would have a blank check in front of them with the menu, and there was a cup with some pencil stubs to write with. Nothing was pre-printed. No boxes to check. You actually printed out your menu choices. Then the waiter would come by, pick up your check, and review your selections, and clarify certain items, and ask "how would you like that steak?, etc. 
It amazed me how they could read some rather illegible handwriting...

The main reason for having the passengers write their selections themselves, was to prevent waste, in case the passenger disputed what they had ordered.

After the meal, the steward came around with the totaled amount on each check, and collected...either in cash, or the rarely held, Rail Travel Credit Card.


----------



## Exvalley

It looks like Flexible Dining is here to stay on the east coast trains. The reservation system still shows Flexibile Dining on the Lake Shore Limited in October.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> View attachment 21064
> 
> They would usually be waiting with the place setting when you were seated.



Yes, those are the “standard” dining car checks I was referring to. 

I wouldn’t say it was usual they were waiting on the table, I saw a few western crews do this but not all. And as I said several posts ago the eastern crews would fill out the car and room number for you and only ask you to sign.

As is typically of Amtrak dining Cars, each crew has their own system so not surprising that our mileage varies!


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> It looks like Flexible Dining is here to stay on the east coast trains. The reservation system still shows Flexibile Dining on the Lake Shore Limited in October.


So it's kosher dinner and breakfast on my scheduled Cardinal trip in June but real food on the connecting Zephyr.


----------



## nferr

fdaley said:


> The need is clearly greater on the western trains, but in the east, the Crescent is about 30 hours end to end, and the Cardinal, Star and Meteor are all more than 24 hours. And the Lake Shore and Capitol are long enough that they require something far better than the current level of service before I'd want to ride them myself, let alone recommend them to anyone.



Lake Shore westbound is a dinner and breakfast if you ride the entire distance. Flex dining is not great but certainly adequate for that. Same with the Capitol. Agree with you on the Crescent and Silver Service. That's multiple meals. Cardinal is kind of unique because there's so few sleeper passengers with the current consist


----------



## fdaley

nferr said:


> Lake Shore westbound is a dinner and breakfast if you ride the entire distance. Flex dining is not great but certainly adequate for that. Same with the Capitol. Agree with you on the Crescent and Silver Service. That's multiple meals. Cardinal is kind of unique because there's so few sleeper passengers with the current consist



The eastbound Lake Shore leaves Chicago at 9:30 at night, arrives in Albany at 2:30 the next afternoon (and often more like 4 p.m. if late), and Boston at 8-10 p.m. So that's multiple meal periods. There's no way I would book a family vacation using the Lake Shore or Capitol with the current meal service, and no way I'd recommend it to anyone else. A bedroom for two on the Lake Shore still costs about $750 a night at the lowest bucket that's ever available. I could imagine toughing it out if traveling alone in a roomette, but it really has zero appeal to me. The breakfast doesn't even meet the Motel 6 standard.


----------



## Barb Stout

railiner said:


> After the meal, the steward came around with the totaled amount on each check, and collected...either in cash, or the rarely held, Rail Travel Credit Card.


Rail Travel Credit Card. Are any of those still around and/or are any good currently?


----------



## jiml

Rail Travel Card - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> So it's kosher dinner and breakfast on my scheduled Cardinal trip in June but real food on the connecting Zephyr.


Sigh, I don't eat seafood so I don't get the kosher meals. Flexible dining for me this month


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Sigh, I don't eat seafood so I don't get the kosher meals. Flexible dining for me this month


Huh? Last time I checked, there was beef and chicken also available and a separate breakfast.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Huh? Last time I checked, there was beef and chicken also available and a separate breakfast.


Where can I check?


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Where can I check?


There used to be a web page but I can't find it. There was a previous thread on it on this site. I also dislike seafood so I emailed them asking where I can find that info. Julie, like usual, was a waste of time for anything but simplistic questions.
I'll post their reply if they bother telling me anything useful.
I could call but I haven't finalized the reservation scheduled for June.

Edit:
FOUND IT!





Menu Items – Limited | Amtrak Food Facts







amtrakfoodfacts.com




Kosher meals are clearly marked.


----------



## Cal

Alright. 

Also, It looks like traditional dining is coming back on May 24th to all western LD trains. On the 25th, train 4 shows traditional dining.


----------



## Exvalley

me_little_me said:


> Huh? Last time I checked, there was beef and chicken also available and a separate breakfast.


But you can't choose which kosher meal you get, can you? So if you don't eat seafood wouldn't you be playing kosher meal roulette?


----------



## Palmetto

Exvalley said:


> But you can't choose which kosher meal you get, can you? So if you don't eat seafood wouldn't you be playing kosher meal roulette?



Being able to pre-order would help solve that problem.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> They way I recall pre-Amtrak times, was that each passenger would have a blank check in front of them with the menu, and there was a cup with some pencil stubs to write with. Nothing was pre-printed. No boxes to check. You actually printed out your menu choices. Then the waiter would come by, pick up your check, and review your selections, and clarify certain items, and ask "how would you like that steak?, etc.
> It amazed me how they could read some rather illegible handwriting...
> 
> The main reason for having the passengers write their selections themselves, was to prevent waste, in case the passenger disputed what they had ordered.
> 
> After the meal, the steward came around with the totaled amount on each check, and collected...either in cash, or the rarely held, Rail Travel Credit Card.



As you described, that is exactly what I remember pre-Amtrak. And, I think that this was also done in the very early years of Amtrak's existence.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> The main reason for having the passengers write their selections themselves, was to prevent waste, in case the passenger disputed what they had ordered.



I was always told by “dining car historians” that the rule was based on racist issues of the time.


----------



## Sidney

Damn! I made a reservation on the Eagle/Sunset to LA on the 21st,anticipating two days of real food. If it starts the 24th I'll totally miss it. Rescheduling is tough. I paid low bucket and every date through the summer is higher. No way I will pay any more than low bucket.


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> But you can't choose which kosher meal you get, can you? So if you don't eat seafood wouldn't you be playing kosher meal roulette?


Yes, you can select your kosher meal but you must do it 72 hours in advance. You don't just pick "kosher" as an item and get "kosher surprise". Even I wouldn't attribute that level of incompetence to Amtrak executives and, Lord knows, I think they rate below weeds.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Damn! I made a reservation on the Eagle/Sunset to LA on the 21st,anticipating two days of real food. If it starts the 24th I'll totally miss it. Rescheduling is tough. I paid low bucket and every date through the summer is higher. No way I will pay any more than low bucket.


Yea, it starts the day you arrive. That is unfortunate. You can check if the train has flexible or traditional dining just by clicking details.


----------



## Mailliw

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was always told by “dining car historians” that the rule was based on racist issues of the time.


How so? I know in the South Black passengers were either banned from the dining car or limited to a screened off booth, but I'm not clear what written meal orders have to do with race?


----------



## TrackWalker

*Service Change*

Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; after that date it will be renamed traditional dining.


----------



## trainman74

Mailliw said:


> How so? I know in the South Black passengers were either banned from the dining car or limited to a screened off booth, but I'm not clear what written meal orders have to do with race?



For many reasons, Black passengers were less likely to be able to read and write than white passengers -- which meant they weren't able to fill out their meal check -- which, in effect, meant they weren't able to eat in the dining car.


----------



## Cal

TrackWalker said:


> *Service Change*
> 
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; after that date it will be renamed traditional dining.


----------



## Sidney

OK. I ll be on the TE/Sunset on May 22 and 23rd. Of course,reading the above the statement says flexible dining will be "renamed" traditional dining. Doesn't that mean traditional dining is back?


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> OK. I ll be on the TE/Sunset on May 22 and 23rd. Of course,reading the above the statement says flexible dining will be "renamed" traditional dining. Doesn't that mean traditional dining is back?


I think it was a joke


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mailliw said:


> How so? I know in the South Black passengers were either banned from the dining car or limited to a screened off booth, but I'm not clear what written meal orders have to do with race?



The Pullman waiters were black. I’ve heard various reasons but basically the waiters were only to deliver the checks to the Steward (who was white).

I’ve also heard what @trainman74 mentioned in his post - by refusing to take verbal orders it would keep immigrants and illiterates from dining.


----------



## Zach

jiml said:


> View attachment 21064
> 
> They would usually be waiting with the place setting when you were seated.



On the table and if you had an organized crew, the sections you needed to fill out were highlighted


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> I think it was a joke


Well, for some of us, it did not go over our head. As soon as I read the post, I laughed and told my wife what it said. She immediately laughed too!
It was great! Someone else is as crazy as I am!


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Well, for some of us, it did not go over our head. As soon as I read the post, I laughed and told my wife what it said. She immediately laughed too!
> It was great! Someone else is as crazy as I am!


I wasn't 100% sure


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> I wasn't 100% sure


Sick minds breed great sarcasm.


----------



## JC_620

My apologies if this was already answered earlier in the thread but with the signing of the relief bill, does that also mean that full service traditional dining will resume again??


----------



## Exvalley

JC_620 said:


> My apologies if this was already answered earlier in the thread but with the signing of the relief bill, does that also mean that full service traditional dining will resume again??


Yes, in late May. The east coast trains will keep flexible dining, though.


----------



## Palmetto

Exvalley said:


> Yes, in late May. The east coast trains will keep flexible dining, though.



It seems that the _City of New Orleans_ will also retain flexible dining; not just the East coast. So, if you're going to New Orleans from Chicago, get ready to experience flexible dining. Hope that changes. _Texas Eagle _goes back to traditional.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Palmetto said:


> It seems that the _City of New Orleans_ will also retain flexible dining; not just the East coast. So, if you're going to New Orleans from Chicago, get ready to experience flexible dining. Hope that changes. _Texas Eagle _goes back to traditional.


Like for Eagle, Hate for Flex Dinning in the East and on the CONO!


----------



## jloewen

fdaley said:


> The eastbound Lake Shore leaves Chicago at 9:30 at night, arrives in Albany at 2:30 the next afternoon (and often more like 4 p.m. if late), and Boston at 8-10 p.m. So that's multiple meal periods. There's no way I would book a family vacation using the Lake Shore or Capitol with the current meal service, and no way I'd recommend it to anyone else. A bedroom for two on the Lake Shore still costs about $750 a night at the lowest bucket that's ever available. I could imagine toughing it out if traveling alone in a roomette, but it really has zero appeal to me. The breakfast doesn't even meet the Motel 6 standard.


Unfair! I stayed at a Motel 6 recently. Discouraging. NOTHING but coffee. Also, a substandard sliver of soap and substandard towel. From now on, it's the luxurious Quality Inn for me!!


----------



## Sidney

Like before,all the one overnight trains with the exception of the Texas Eagle and Coast Starlight will remain with flex dining. 

The Silver Trains are quite popular. It would be nice for the Meteor to do traditional dining to give passengers a choice. A lot of seniors use those trains and like 99% of us are not pleased with the offerings Flex dining has.


----------



## jloewen

Palmetto said:


> It seems that the _City of New Orleans_ will also retain flexible dining; not just the East coast. So, if you're going to New Orleans from Chicago, get ready to experience flexible dining. Hope that changes. _Texas Eagle _goes back to traditional.


Well before "flexible dining," CONO disappointed. They went to sandwiches and did not even include a muffaletta! No sense of place!


----------



## Sidney

jloewen said:


> Unfair! I stayed at a Motel 6 recently. Discouraging. NOTHING but coffee. Also, a substandard sliver of soap and substandard towel. From now on, it's the luxurious Quality Inn for me!!


Motel 6 has always just offered coffee. Hopefully as things ease Wyndham and Choice Hotels will be offering decent breakfasts again.


----------



## toddinde

Especially when the tr


railiner said:


> They way I recall pre-Amtrak times, was that each passenger would have a blank check in front of them with the menu, and there was a cup with some pencil stubs to write with. Nothing was pre-printed. No boxes to check. You actually printed out your menu choices. Then the waiter would come by, pick up your check, and review your selections, and clarify certain items, and ask "how would you like that steak?, etc.
> It amazed me how they could read some rather illegible handwriting...
> 
> The main reason for having the passengers write their selections themselves, was to prevent waste, in case the passenger disputed what they had ordered.
> 
> After the meal, the steward came around with the totaled amount on each check, and collected...either in cash, or the rarely held, Rail Travel Credit Card.


I remember how the track back in the day was not always the best, and what a challenge it was to write those checks out with the pencils. Thanks for the memory!


----------



## Bob Dylan

jloewen said:


> Well before "flexible dining," CONO disappointed. They went to sandwiches and did not even include a muffaletta! No sense of place!


Sad, but at least the CONO serves 3 of the Best " Foodie" Cities in the US.( Chicago,Memphis and New Orleans)


----------



## railiner

Barb Stout said:


> Rail Travel Credit Card. Are any of those still around and/or are any good currently?





jiml said:


> Rail Travel Card - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Long gone.
One of the first improvements made by Amtrak, was the widespread acceptance of the major credit cards, both in stations, and on board trains.
When I first started riding the rails, I did not have sufficient credit history to obtain a Rail Travel Card, so my father 'subscribed', and got a card for me.
I recall that whenever I paid my diner check, I was the only one in sight to have one of those cards...


----------



## Cal

Palmetto said:


> It seems that the _City of New Orleans_ will also retain flexible dining; not just the East coast. So, if you're going to New Orleans from Chicago, get ready to experience flexible dining. Hope that changes. _Texas Eagle _goes back to traditional.


CONO is an eastern train


----------



## railiner

Cal said:


> CONO is an eastern train


Geographically, in the eastern half of the US, I agree...but when speaking of railroads, I believe the historic Illinois Central, was classified as a "Western" RR...


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> Geographically, in the eastern half of the US, I agree...but when speaking of railroads, I believe the historic Illinois Central, was classified as a "Western" RR...


Amtrak defines "eastern" as east of the Mississippi, last I checked anyway


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Amtrak defines "eastern" as east of the Mississippi, last I checked anyway



I usually consider all of the Superliner trains “western” trains... probably cause that’s how I grew up with them. (Anyone else remember riding in the vista dome on the city of New Orleans and Capitol? Those were the days!).


----------



## railiner

Cal said:


> Amtrak defines "eastern" as east of the Mississippi, last I checked anyway


IIRC, back when Amtrak had the regional All Aboard Fares, the City of New Orleans divided the eastern and central zones, and it was included in both...


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> IIRC, back when Amtrak had the regional All Aboard Fares, the City of New Orleans divided the eastern and central zones, and it was included in both...


Yes, it could be combined with a regional ticket from either side.


----------



## dlagrua

According to the RPA, 7 day service will return between May 24th and June 7th . I take it to mean that regular dining service will return on the Western Trains but not on the Eastern Routes. The sad thing is that acceptable "contemporary dining" can be served on the Eastern routes. The original Cardinal menu might not have been terrific but sure better than those cheap high carb spaghetti meals that Amtrak is serving now to its highest paying customers.


----------



## me_little_me

dlagrua said:


> According to the RPA, 7 day service will return between May 24th and June 7th . I take it to mean that regular dining service will return on the Western Trains but not on the Eastern Routes. The sad thing is that acceptable "contemporary dining" can be served on the Eastern routes. The original Cardinal menu might not have been terrific but sure better than those cheap high carb spaghetti meals that Amtrak is serving now to its highest paying customers.


Absolutely correct. Unless Amtrak plans to upgrade the garbage (but hasn't said anything), there are few eastern trains for me. I'll be driving to Hinton, WV to avoid using the Crescent to WAS then CL to Chicago or Crescent to NOL then CONO to Chicago for my Colorado trip because of the crap meals. At least, there is only one dinner and one breakfast I have to stomach on the Cardinal so it's either pick up a meal prior to boarding (so only one dinner and one breakfast total) or try the kosher meals. Since I've never had them, I'll probably go for the latter for convenience.


----------



## nferr

fdaley said:


> The eastbound Lake Shore leaves Chicago at 9:30 at night, arrives in Albany at 2:30 the next afternoon (and often more like 4 p.m. if late), and Boston at 8-10 p.m. So that's multiple meal periods. There's no way I would book a family vacation using the Lake Shore or Capitol with the current meal service, and no way I'd recommend it to anyone else. A bedroom for two on the Lake Shore still costs about $750 a night at the lowest bucket that's ever available. I could imagine toughing it out if traveling alone in a roomette, but it really has zero appeal to me. The breakfast doesn't even meet the Motel 6 standard.



Yeah, but the eastbound Lake Shore doesn't serve dinner leaving Chicago. So you're still talking a breakfast and basically one meal. Eastbound Capital serves a dinner and breakfast. So I don't see the difference.


----------



## fdaley

me_little_me said:


> Unless Amtrak plans to upgrade the garbage (but hasn't said anything), there are few eastern trains for me. I'll be driving to Hinton, WV to avoid using the Crescent



This is how I feel. From upstate New York, I'm looking at my options for driving to Illinois or Michigan (if more Wolverine service is restored) for a family trip out west next winter. The Lake Shore to me is just an abomination now. We could spend two nights in hotels each way, drive at a leisurely pace, have much better meals and still save money over the Amtrak sleeper price -- and maybe see a few sights along the way.

And for trips I used to take on the Crescent, there's the day train to Lynchburg or Roanoke, and a rental car for anything beyond.


----------



## JC_620

As far as the LSL goes, I understand that some westbound pax who arrive into Albany either from NYC or Boston are jumping off and grabbing something at a few of the local restaurants for a takeout type dinner in Albany before continuing to Chicago. That is what I would do myself. Makes sense if there is a layover and time allows anyways. 

Why bring traditional dining service only to the western trains but not the eastern ones?


----------



## tim49424

JC_620 said:


> Why bring traditional dining service only to the western trains but not the eastern ones?



Amtrak seems to be restoring things to pre-pandemic service. The traditional dining service on the eastern trains was discontinued in 2018, with the exception of the Auto train.


----------



## fdaley

JC_620 said:


> As far as the LSL goes, I understand that some westbound pax who arrive into Albany either from NYC or Boston are jumping off and grabbing something at a few of the local restaurants for a takeout type dinner in Albany before continuing to Chicago. That is what I would do myself. Makes sense if there is a layover and time allows anyways.
> 
> Why bring traditional dining service only to the western trains but not the eastern ones?



Because of the Albany station location in Rensselaer, there really are only a couple of places within plausible walking distance, though perhaps one could get delivery from someplace across the river. The trip for me usually starts at Albany, so I suppose we could bring dinner aboard with us. But when three of us travel across country, we usually have two big roller bags, two backpacks, a couple of smaller bags, a walker, and my wife rides in a wheelchair. We get assistance from the station staff once we get inside, but I don't think I'd want to introduce a couple bags of dinner into that process -- especially if the dinner containers need to be kept upright. And really, for $700-plus per night, I don't see why I should have to go to that effort -- especially when the same price included a table-service, multi-course dinner until two years ago. 

And then, of course, there's the issue of breakfast the next morning.


----------



## Mailliw

tim49424 said:


> Amtrak seems to be restoring things to pre-pandemic service. The traditional dining service on the eastern trains was discontinued in 2018, with the exception of the Auto train.


As long as they don't do anything really stupid with the VII diners there's still hope traditional dining or something close to it is eventually restored in the East.


----------



## zephyr17

Mailliw said:


> As long as they don't do anything really stupid with the VII diners there's still hope traditional dining or something close to it is eventually restored in the East.


Agree on that. I understand there actually was a plan to do something stupid, rip out much of the galley equipment and replace it with banks of convection ovens to improve throughput of heating up the heat and serve "flexible dining" sh*t.

Amtrak usually is kind of slow pulling the trigger on such brainstorms, so hopefully they didn't get started on that yet.


----------



## Sidney

fdaley said:


> Because of the Albany station location in Rensselaer, there really are only a couple of places within plausible walking distance, though perhaps one could get delivery from someplace across the river. The trip for me usually starts at Albany, so I suppose we could bring dinner aboard with us. But when three of us travel across country, we usually have two big roller bags, two backpacks, a couple of smaller bags, a walker, and my wife rides in a wheelchair. We get assistance from the station staff once we get inside, but I don't think I'd want to introduce a couple bags of dinner into that process -- especially if the dinner containers need to be kept upright. And really, for $700-plus per night, I don't see why I should have to go to that effort -- especially when the same price included a table-service, multi-course dinner until two years ago.
> 
> And then, of course, there's the issue of breakfast the next morning.


----------



## Sidney

You nailed it. It's nice traditional dining is returning to the Western trains,but the flex crap continues everywhere else. Biggest complaint is the continued sky high sleeper prices and the substandard food. I always cite the Silver trains as the most outrageous. Low bucket one person roomette is close to $500. Bedrooms can well be over $1000. For that kind of money,you would expect first class dining.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> The traditional dining service on the eastern trains was discontinued in 2018, with the exception of the Auto train.



October 2019 for the Meteor and Crescent.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> October 2019 for the Meteor and Crescent.



Come to think about it, I rode the Crescent around Christmas 2018 and had traditional dining, I do know I was correct about the Capitol Limited as I rode that train a mere two weeks before the changeover in May 2018. My apologies.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> Come to think about it, I rode the Crescent around Christmas 2018 and had traditional dining, I do know I was correct about the Capitol Limited as I rode that train a mere two weeks before the changeover in May 2018. My apologies.



It’s hard to keep it all straight. I remember the date because I was headed up to Strasburg on the Meteor right after flex dining began! 

The Lake Shore and Capitol were the first to get “Contemporary Dining” - the salad boxes. And then they morphed into the current “flex dining.”


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s hard to keep it all straight. I remember the date because I was headed up to Strasburg on the Meteor right after flex dining began!
> 
> The Lake Shore and Capitol were the first to get “Contemporary Dining” - the salad boxes. And then they morphed into the current “flex dining.”



Ive not been on either train since flex started, except for a round trip to see my aunt just south of Syracuse, boarding in Chicago. Got breakfast to and from. it wasn’t too bad. But I didn’t know what I was setting myself up for when I did a round trip to Jacksonville a few months later (Nov/Dec ‘19) via the Cardinal and Meteor. Whomever was in charge of the ordering did a horrible job on both trains and they ran out o certain flex meals very quickly. On the Cardinal headed to WAS, there was a young lady training to work the sleeper lounge and she was permitting coach pax to eat in there. I was seated with one of the couples that weren’t supposed to be served and the trainee had to phone her supervisor because she had no idea how much to charge. The couple was livid when they found out they had to pay $50 for the two flex meals and a bottle of wine. They called passenger services, at my recommendation and I don’t know what the conclusion of the issue was, but on my return trip, which she worked as a SCA, I found out from the LSA that she wasn’t long for the job as the return trip to NYC would be her last. It seems that the food ordering was in her hands as well. I don’t remember what the issue on the Meteor was but there was a shortage right after I boarded in DC. The return trips were fully stocked and no problems except the food was substandard.


----------



## ehbowen

Cal said:


> And will continue to do so until long distance sleeper revenue goes down a considerable amount



If that happens, they'll simply say that travelers no longer want to travel by train and discontinue the route.


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> Ive not been on either train since flex started, except for a round trip to see my aunt just south of Syracuse, boarding in Chicago. Got breakfast to and from. it wasn’t too bad. But I didn’t know what I was setting myself up for when I did a round trip to Jacksonville a few months later (Nov/Dec ‘19) via the Cardinal and Meteor. Whomever was in charge of the ordering did a horrible job on both trains and they ran out o certain flex meals very quickly. On the Cardinal headed to WAS, there was a young lady training to work the sleeper lounge and she was permitting coach pax to eat in there. I was seated with one of the couples that weren’t supposed to be served and the trainee had to phone her supervisor because she had no idea how much to charge. The couple was livid when they found out they had to pay $50 for the two flex meals and a bottle of wine. They called passenger services, at my recommendation and I don’t know what the conclusion of the issue was, but on my return trip, which she worked as a SCA, I found out from the LSA that she wasn’t long for the job as the return trip to NYC would be her last. It seems that the food ordering was in her hands as well. I don’t remember what the issue on the Meteor was but there was a shortage right after I boarded in DC. The return trips were fully stocked and no problems except the food was substandard.


The bottle of wine was probably $44. The two flex meals were $6. Those "meals" sell for about $3 in the frozen food section of a supermarket.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> The bottle of wine was probably $44. The two flex meals were $6. Those "meals" sell for about $3 in the frozen food section of a supermarket.



However, the point was, they weren’t supposed to be there in the first place. I also failed to make it clear it $50 each, not total.


----------



## Sidney

I know. I was being a bit sarcastic to emphasize how cheap those flex meals are. $100? Let's see...$94 for the wine $6 for the meals.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> I know. I was being a bit sarcastic to emphasize how cheap those flex meals are. $100? Let's see...$94 for the wine $6 for the meals.



I was more thinking $94 for the meals and $6 for the wine. Let's get real here! No, the wine didn't come with a paper bag either nor was the food served on Amtrak's finest china.


----------



## lordsigma

tim49424 said:


> Come to think about it, I rode the Crescent around Christmas 2018 and had traditional dining, I do know I was correct about the Capitol Limited as I rode that train a mere two weeks before the changeover in May 2018. My apologies.



Technically three trains have permanently lost traditional dining from the flexible dining program and is where most of the job cuts were - The Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Crescent. The Lake Shore, Cardinal, and City of New Orleans had "diner lite" meals with pre-prepared meals served traditional dining style with table service (but did not have the full crew with a chef/food specialist. ) The Silver Star had no dining car at all. The cuts out west were due to the pandemic and, reportedly, as some articles (and RPA noted on Friday) hinted they are at least planning on bringing back some sort of dining car meals out west when trains go back daily, but nothing has been finalized or ironed out yet so it's probably still up in the air.


----------



## jis

One of the passing comments by one of the Amtrak persons at the ESPA Annual Meeting on Zoom regarding Diner service on Eastern trains was that there is likely to be significant positive changes on the Eastern trains within the next several months, possibly early in FY22. So there is still hope. It is on their radar screen at least. The question was naturally in the context of the LSL.

The Star already has Sleeping Car food service back at the same level as the Meteor. They will all improve further. There is no requirement for food service to be a separate non loss making P&L center anymore. Mica has been buried six feet under, in a manner of speaking, hopefully for good.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The Lake Shore downgrade was only because of a lack of physical dining cars correct? 

Does anyone know what type of menu the Lake Shore was using during that time?


----------



## lordsigma

If I had to make a prediction for out west - think the current setup of the Auto Train with traditional meals but served mainly in your room with only limited seating in the dining car (and I wouldn't be surprised if, at least during the rest of the pandemic, seating in the dining car is reserved for sleeper passengers only and coach dining car meals would have to carry away their meals to their seat or to the lounge car.)


----------



## Sidney

lordsigma said:


> Technically three trains have permanently lost traditional dining from the flexible dining program and is where most of the job cuts were - The Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Crescent. The Lake Shore, Cardinal, and City of New Orleans had "diner lite" meals with pre-prepared meals served traditional dining style with table service (but did not have the full crew with a chef/food specialist. ) The Silver Star had no dining car at all. The cuts out west were due to the pandemic and, reportedly, as some articles (and RPA noted on Friday) hinted they are at least planning on bringing back some sort of dining car meals out west when trains go back daily, but nothing has been finalized or ironed out yet so it's probably still up in the air.


I rode the CONO a few months before Flex dining and flex dining was actually an improvement.


----------



## Exvalley

jis said:


> One of the passing comments by one of the Amtrak persons at the ESPA Annual Meeting on Zoom regarding Diner service on Eastern trains was that there is likely to be significant positive changes on the Eastern trains within the next several months, possibly early in FY22.


I am booked on the Lake Shore Limited in late October, so I have my fingers crossed.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Lake Shore downgrade was only because of a lack of physical dining cars correct?
> 
> Does anyone know what type of menu the Lake Shore was using during that time?


Originally yes was due to a shortage of heritage dining cars - and prior to Anderson I believe the intent was to return traditional dining car service when the train received VL2s. If I remember from looking at menus it was very similar to the Cardinal's pre-flex setup.


----------



## tim49424

lordsigma said:


> The cuts out west were due to the pandemic and, reportedly, as some articles (and RPA noted on Friday) hinted they are at least planning on bringing back some sort of dining car meals out west when trains go back daily, but nothing has been finalized or ironed out yet so it's probably still up in the air.



If you read my previous post in regards to the restoration of traditional dining, I basically said the exact same thing. By the way, the RPA article more than just hinted at it, making it sound like a done deal.


----------



## lordsigma

tim49424 said:


> If you read my previous post in regards to the restoration of traditional dining, I basically said the exact same thing. By the way, the RPA article more than just hinted at it, making it sound like a done deal.


Sorry my bad was being lazy and only updated myself with the most recent page of comments.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> I rode the CONO a few months before Flex dining and flex dining was actually an improvement.



I agree with that southbound, having seen the menus. When I rode the CONO for my one and only time two and a half years ago, I made an extra effort to avoid the southern trip on that train because of the food. It was a roundabout way to go south to New Orleans but I did get to experience the Crescent for the first time.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> Technically three trains have permanently lost traditional dining from the flexible dining program and is where most of the job cuts were - The Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Crescent. The Lake Shore, Cardinal, and City of New Orleans had "diner lite" meals with pre-prepared meals served traditional dining style with table service (but did not have the full crew with a chef/food specialist. ) The Silver Star had no dining car at all. The cuts out west were due to the pandemic and, reportedly, as some articles (and RPA noted on Friday) hinted they are at least planning on bringing back some sort of dining car meals out west when trains go back daily, but nothing has been finalized or ironed out yet so it's probably still up in the air.


Somebody said Arrow is showing traditional dining on western trains after the return to 7-day service.


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Lake Shore downgrade was only because of a lack of physical dining cars correct?
> 
> Does anyone know what type of menu the Lake Shore was using during that time?



Yes, the Lake Shore had diner lite for a couple of years after the last heritage diners were retired. By coincidence I was on the last westbound run before the switch to "contemporary" food. As I recall, the chicken and fish options for dinner were the same as on the western trains and the Crescent at that point. I had the chicken, which was clearly something frozen that had been reheated and plated. It was OK, not wonderful, but far better than the current offerings and presentation. For breakfast, they managed to produce eggs and potatoes and even had an orange slice as a garnish. Returning east a few days later, we had a brand-new Viewliner diner but no dining, just boxes handed out from behind the counter. 

I did hear some horror stories about the Cardinal and City of NOL during that period but didn't have occasion to ride either one at the time.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> I did hear some horror stories about the Cardinal and City of NOL during that period but didn't have occasion to ride either one at the time.



I rode both. When I rode the Cardinal it was fine. The breakfast menu didn’t have the scrambled eggs of course but a casual rider wouldn’t have known the difference from the Cardinal to the Crescent. My French toast was quite good.

The City of New Orleans not so much. The dinner I had was the same quality as the flex dining but at least you got a slightly larger salad and they still had table service and plated the food.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> Somebody said Arrow is showing traditional dining on western trains after the return to 7-day service.


Arrow shows it coming back May 21st which is what their suspension shows - but I seriously doubt they will change anything before the trains go back to daily. Will probably stay flex until the first day the train runs daily.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Arrow shows it coming back May 21st which is what their suspension shows - but I seriously doubt they will change anything before the trains go back to daily. Will probably stay flex until the first day the train runs daily.


May 24th shows all trains, I don't recall seeing Arrow showing the 21st


----------



## me_little_me

tim49424 said:


> I was more thinking $94 for the meals and $6 for the wine. Let's get real here! No, the wine didn't come with a paper bag either nor was the food served on Amtrak's finest china.


Nah! $1.00 for the meal. $2.00 for the wine (alcohol is heavily taxed) and $97 for the packaging.


----------



## tim49424

me_little_me said:


> Nah! $1.00 for the meal. $2.00 for the wine (alcohol is heavily taxed) and $97 for the packaging.



But the wine just comes in a bottle with no bag....or are you referring to those black plastic trays for the food? I can see those being worth $97! Heck, they may taste better than the flex meals themselves, carcinogens and all!


----------



## jiml

There was a past post regarding the cost of the Flex meals somewhere. Specifically that if an employee wanted one they were around $25, which of course furthered the value discussion, complaints about Amtrak accounting and cost allocation, etc.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> May 24th shows all trains, I don't recall seeing Arrow showing the 21st


If you look at May 22nd (Saturday) for California Zephyr you'll see Traditional Dining - that's the first run after the May 21st date that's published as an advisory for when flexible dining will run until.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> If you look at May 22nd (Saturday) for California Zephyr you'll see Traditional Dining - that's the first run after the May 21st date that's published as an advisory for when flexible dining will run until.


Oh alright, thanks!


----------



## fdaley

jiml said:


> There was a past post regarding the cost of the Flex meals somewhere. Specifically that if an employee wanted one they were around $25, which of course furthered the value discussion, complaints about Amtrak accounting and cost allocation, etc.



That seems fair. The employees get them for half price.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> There was a past post regarding the cost of the Flex meals somewhere. Specifically that if an employee wanted one they were around $25, which of course furthered the value discussion, complaints about Amtrak accounting and cost allocation, etc.



I thought they were quite a bit more than that. I’m thinking $38 for some reason? Which $38 plus $12 for a bottle of wine would be $50.


----------



## jiml

I would presume they could not charge dining car customers more for the wine than clearly posted on the cafe menus. Talk about grounds for a complaint... "so if I drink it here it's one price..." It's always been the same wine in the same sizes. Other than the PPC, they never loaded special wines for the dining car IIRC.


----------



## Barb Stout

lordsigma said:


> Originally yes was due to a shortage of heritage dining cars - and prior to Anderson I believe the intent was to return traditional dining car service when the train received VL2s. If I remember from looking at menus it was very similar to the Cardinal's pre-flex setup.


We took the LSL in the summer of 2018 and ate the flex (or maybe it was called "contemporary") meals in a dining car. I had the Asian noodle bowl. So I'm confused about the shortage of heritage dining car idea. Were we just "lucky" to get an LSL that did have diner when most of them didn't?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> I would presume they could not charge dining car customers more for the wine than clearly posted on the cafe menus. Talk about grounds for a complaint... "so if I drink it here it's one price..." It's always been the same wine in the same sizes. Other than the PPC, they never loaded special wines for the dining car IIRC.



On the current cafe menu two wines are listed-
187 ml Barefoot for $8.
375 ml Line 39 for $16

The Empire Builder used to serve “premium” wines as well but I’m not sure if they were also offered in the cafe.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> On the current cafe menu two wines are listed-
> 187 ml Barefoot for $8.
> 375 ml Line 39 for $16
> 
> The Empire Builder used to serve “premium” wines as well but I’m not sure if they were also offered in the cafe.



I actually won one of those wines on the Empire Builder back during the wine and cheese sessions. Sadly, I don’t remember what it was, except a Columbia River Valley wine and it was pretty good. FWIW, I didn’t know that wine was available in the cafe. I thought it was just in the dining car that you could purchase it.


----------



## Sidney

You can get four of those little bottles of wine for 6 to 7 dollars in any grocery or liquor store. I always have them with me when I get a sleeper.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> You can get four of those little bottles of wine for 6 to 7 dollars in any grocery or liquor store. I always have them with me when I get a sleeper.



Yeah, rather than spend a zillion dollars, bring your own but you have to enjoy it in your room. I’ve never spent anything on the train for adult beverages of any sort. When I went out East a couple of times, I got a coupon for a complimentary drink, which I used on a can of beer. Even if alcohol were to be cheap, I’d not spend anything because I don’t like to drink while on the train. I want a clear head when taking in the scenery. I’m a lightweight as far as drinking goes.


----------



## fdaley

Barb Stout said:


> We took the LSL in the summer of 2018 and ate the flex (or maybe it was called "contemporary") meals in a dining car. I had the Asian noodle bowl. So I'm confused about the shortage of heritage dining car idea. Were we just "lucky" to get an LSL that did have diner when most of them didn't?



On the Lake Shore, the "contemporary" meals began the moment the new Viewliner diners went into service on June 1, 2018. Before that, they had used an Amfleet lounge with table service for a few years after the heritage diners were retired. This was nicknamed "diner lite" service, because the offerings were somewhat restricted by the lack of a full kitchen.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> This was nicknamed "diner lite" service, because the offerings were somewhat restricted by the lack of a full kitchen.



It is ridiculous that I know this much useless Amtrak trivia but...

“Diner Lite” was an official Amtrak term that came about in 2008 when they redid all of the Amfleet II Cafe cars so they could act as Diner and/or Lounge cars as needed. 

This was the same time that the “Cross Country Cafe” cars were converted as well.


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> It is ridiculous that I know this much useless Amtrak trivia but...
> 
> “Diner Lite” was an official Amtrak term that came about in 2008 when they redid all of the Amfleet II Cafe cars so they could act as Diner and/or Lounge cars as needed.
> 
> This was the same time that the “Cross Country Cafe” cars were converted as well.



I never knew that. I had thought it was just a slightly derisive nickname given by train riders. I remember that there was an earlier Diner Lite period for the Lake Shore in the mid-to-late 2000s, and then they managed to find a heritage diner for it starting in about 2010. Then it went back to Diner Lite a few years after that, when the heritage diners were removed from service for good. So to me, it really does rub salt in the wound that when the new diners finally arrive, Amtrak basically stops offering the service they were designed to provide.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> I've seen a room tour in it, they are SO much nicer. There is an upcoming review by Simply_Railway. I can't wait!



They look better except no toilet in the roomettes so you have to get up in the middle of the night, get dressed, trudge down the hall to use a public toilet - in the age of Covid!


----------



## Sidney

All the roomettes on the Superliners do not have toilets in the room. There is one upstairs and three downstairs.


----------



## districtRich

Ferroequinologist said:


> They look better except no toilet in the roomettes so you have to get up in the middle of the night, get dressed, trudge down the hall to use a public toilet - in the age of Covid!



Beats waking your friend up in the middle of the night, having him get dressed and go in the hall while you use the toilet next to the bed he's been trying to sleep in.


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> They look better except no toilet in the roomettes so you have to get up in the middle of the night, get dressed, trudge down the hall to use a public toilet - in the age of Covid!


The in-room toilet is very controversial, and I am 100% okay with it not being there. 

I'm fine with using the communal one. It's far less hazardous than any other public toilet you'll find, and I've never had an attendant who neglected to clean them.


----------



## districtRich

But back to dining, in January I took the overnight train from Helsinki to Rovaniemi in Finland and booked myself a sleeping compartment. The food was not included, but the dining/snack car was basically a full restaurant car. You could get snacks or a full meal and it was all attended to by one person. You'd go up to the counter and place your order and if it was a prepared sandwich or snack you'd get it then, but if it was a full meal like meatballs and mashed potatoes the attendant would just bring it to your table once ready. No idea if they make any money off food or make a loss, but it sure was nice


----------



## crescent-zephyr

districtRich said:


> But back to dining, in January I took the overnight train from Helsinki to Rovaniemi in Finland and booked myself a sleeping compartment. The food was not included, but the dining/snack car was basically a full restaurant car. You could get snacks or a full meal and it was all attended to by one person. You'd go up to the counter and place your order and if it was a prepared sandwich or snack you'd get it then, but if it was a full meal like meatballs and mashed potatoes the attendant would just bring it to your table once ready. No idea if they make any money off food or make a loss, but it sure was nice



That sounds similar to the food service available on the Caledonian Sleeper from London.

Is the cafe available to coach and sleeper passengers? 

and was the food served with “real” plates and silverware?


----------



## districtRich

crescent-zephyr said:


> That sounds similar to the food service available on the Caledonian Sleeper from London.
> 
> Is the cafe available to coach and sleeper passengers?
> 
> and was the food served with “real” plates and silverware?



Yeah it's open to everyone. It's pretty much the same restaurant car on the overnight trains and their normal day trains. 

Breakfast omelette



Meatball lunch



Far away shot of the actual service counter from my seat.



Warm falafel salad and club sandwich options!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ferroequinologist said:


> They look better except no toilet in the roomettes so you have to get up in the middle of the night, get dressed, trudge down the hall to use a public toilet - in the age of Covid!


Have you considered investing in a bedpan?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

districtRich said:


> Yeah it's open to everyone. It's pretty much the same restaurant car on the overnight trains and their normal day trains.
> 
> Breakfast omelette
> View attachment 21205
> 
> 
> Meatball lunch
> View attachment 21206
> 
> 
> Far away shot of the actual service counter from my seat.
> View attachment 21207
> 
> 
> Warm falafel salad and club sandwich options!
> View attachment 21208



Now That’s how it’s done!!!


----------



## Asher

Ferroequinologist said:


> They look better except no toilet in the roomettes so you have to get up in the middle of the night, get dressed, trudge down the hall to use a public toilet - in the age of Covid!



I don't think its hard to wear some type pajamas, go down the isle to the restroom. Its easier than fumbling around trying to use the commode in the roomette in the dark of the night. Unless maybe you're in the room by yourself.


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> Have you considered investing in a bedpan?


A Chamber Pot with cover would probably work out better? It would also reflect the high social stature - well at least back in the days


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> I don't think its hard to wear some type pajamas, go down the isle to the restroom. Its easier than fumbling around trying to use the commode in the roomette in the dark of the night. Unless maybe you're in the room by yourself.


I always have a pair of jogging shorts,tshirt and sandals I wear when I have to go to the shower or bathroom while on the train @ night.


----------



## Brian Battuello

RPA is strangely quiet about flex meals these days. Great that they are eventually coming back to the west coast trains, but is there any hope for the east? I hate to write a letter being so specific when they have so many changes going on right now, but it would sure be nice to enjoy a dinner in the brand new diners...


----------



## Cal

Brian Battuello said:


> RPA is strangely quiet about flex meals these days. Great that they are eventually coming back to the west coast trains, but is there any hope for the east? I hate to write a letter being so specific when they have so many changes going on right now, but it would sure be nice to enjoy a dinner in the brand new diners...


Who knows.


----------



## zephyr17

I have no compunction or problem with going to the washroom in pajama bottoms and a t-shirt in the middle of the night, and have no issue with my fellow passengers venturing out to the washroom in their chosen nightwear, either.


----------



## Sidney

I always wear shorts to bed,so when nature calls as it usually does overnight I just grab a t shirt and venture out. If you are alone having a toilet in your room is a nice plus,but sharing the roomette with another person is tough when one has to go.


----------



## neroden

districtRich said:


> Yeah it's open to everyone. It's pretty much the same restaurant car on the overnight trains and their normal day trains.
> 
> Breakfast omelette
> View attachment 21205
> 
> 
> Meatball lunch
> View attachment 21206
> 
> 
> Far away shot of the actual service counter from my seat.
> View attachment 21207
> 
> 
> Warm falafel salad and club sandwich options!
> View attachment 21208


This, please.


----------



## Dakota 400

zephyr17 said:


> I have no compunction or problem with going to the washroom in pajama bottoms and a t-shirt in the middle of the night, and have no issue with my fellow passengers venturing out to the washroom in their chosen nightwear, either.



That's what I do as well. Nobody is going to see anything that they haven't seen before.


----------



## me_little_me

Dakota 400 said:


> That's what I do as well. Nobody is going to see anything that they haven't seen before.


Or anything worth looking at?


----------



## flitcraft

me_little_me said:


> Or anything worth looking at?


That's been my response when my husband warns me to close the curtains in the room on the train before changing into pajamas...anyone who would find it entertaining to look at somebody my age needs help.


----------



## lordsigma

Has anyone had the new flex dining-based meals on Acela yet?


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Has anyone had the new flex dining-based meals on Acela yet?


Jeb Brooks just released an Acela vs Air between NYC and DC. He said the Salmon was good. 

On another note, the video was great, but I'm sorry to say the plane won by an hour.


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Jeb Brooks just released an Acela vs Air between NYC and DC. He said the Salmon was good.
> 
> On another note, the video was great, but I'm sorry to say the plane won by an hour.


Of course, during the pandemic there are much shorter lines at the TSA. What will it be like when things are fully normalized?

He went by "Amtrak recommended" arrival time in advance but by traveler experience for the plane. Delta, e.g. recommends 2 hours before departure for domestic flights. Why didn't he go by airline recommended times since he went by Amtrak recommended time? Would have made a significant difference.

As to cost, he should have included the $59 "day rate" lounge cost when flying rather than counting that as a freebie or the allocation of a portion of the $450 fee for his credit card. He also should have included the Pre-pass cost allocation for his trip.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Of course, during the pandemic there are much shorter lines at the TSA. What will it be like when things are fully normalized?
> 
> He went by "Amtrak recommended" arrival time in advance but by traveler experience for the plane. Delta, e.g. recommends 2 hours before departure for domestic flights. Why didn't he go by airline recommended times since he went by Amtrak recommended time? Would have made a significant difference.
> 
> As to cost, he should have included the $59 "day rate" lounge cost when flying rather than counting that as a freebie or the allocation of a portion of the $450 fee for his credit card. He also should have included the Pre-pass cost allocation for his trip.


You all have very good points, and I agree. I would love to see him re-do it in normal times.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Of course, during the pandemic there are much shorter lines at the TSA. What will it be like when things are fully normalized?



Not all airports have significantly long TSA lines in normal times. I’ve never flown out of LaGuardia but JFK has been like 5-10 minutes for me.

I liked the video. I’ll probably watch some more of his content.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not all airports have significantly long TSA lines in normal times. I’ve never flown out of LaGuardia but JFK has been like 5-10 minutes for me.


JFK is only 5-10 minutes now? Or in normal times. 

I've flown out of LAX a few times before, and in all those times it took at least 20 minutes to get through security, or longer.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> JFK is only 5-10 minutes now? Or in normal times.
> 
> I've flown out of LAX a few times before, and in all those times it took at least 20 minutes to get through security, or longer.



Normal times. I’ve always had a quick time at LAX as well so maybe I’m just lucky. 

Only airports where I’ve waited significantly are Atlanta, Orlando and Denver.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Normal times. I’ve always had a quick time at LAX as well so maybe I’m just lucky.
> 
> Only airports where I’ve waited significantly are Atlanta, Orlando and Denver.


Well, you're lucky.


----------



## Kimo

anumberone said:


> I don't think its hard to wear some type pajamas, go down the isle to the restroom. Its easier than fumbling around trying to use the commode in the roomette in the dark of the night. Unless maybe you're in the room by yourself.


----------



## adamj023

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not all airports have significantly long TSA lines in normal times. I’ve never flown out of LaGuardia but JFK has been like 5-10 minutes for me.
> 
> I liked the video. I’ll probably watch some more of his content.



I personally prefer air travel and quicker travel times with TSA PreCheck. But you will be able to get a private room which will be coming to Northeast Regional trains during the evening hours. During the pandemic, private rooms are very advantageous for obvious reasons. I don’t believe Acela or its replacement will have private rooms but it should definitely be considered in future car orders as it makes sense to have some available. Glad to see at least some coming to northeast regional trains which is a smart move.


----------



## Cal

adamj023 said:


> I personally prefer air travel and quicker travel times with TSA PreCheck. But you will be able to get a private room which will be coming to Northeast Regional trains during the evening hours. During the pandemic, private rooms are very advantageous for obvious reasons. I don’t believe Acela or its replacement will have private rooms but it should definitely be considered in future car orders as it makes sense to have some available. Glad to see at least some coming to northeast regional trains which is a smart move.


I don't think theres any need to put private rooms (as in sleepers) on the Acelas. They don't run overnight, and when you DO run overnight, you don't want a super early arrival time. This would make it better for the slower regional to take the overnight runs.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Cal said:


> Jeb Brooks just released an Acela vs Air between NYC and DC. He said the Salmon was good.
> 
> On another note, the video was great, but I'm sorry to say the plane won by an hour.




A variation on the same theme, this Business Insider story compares air vs. Acela between New York and Boston. Intesrtingly, he comes to very similiar conclusions as Brooks. Flying is faster but he enjoyed the Acela experience and would gladly do it again, unless he is in a big hurry.


----------



## Exvalley

I am anxiously awaiting news on the fate of Flexible Dining on eastern trains. I have a trip on the LSL in October. 

My hunch is that Amtrak is taking a wait and see approach to gauge travel demand and how much money they are going to need after this latest round has been used up. They may feel that they are in a better position to ask for money if they keep the cost of dining on eastern trains at the same level that they were when the pandemic first hit.


----------



## jiml

Exvalley said:


> I am anxiously awaiting news on the fate of Flexible Dining on eastern trains. I have a trip on the LSL in October.
> 
> My hunch is that Amtrak is taking a wait and see approach to gauge travel demand and how much money they are going to need after this latest round has been used up. They may feel that they are in a better position to ask for money if they keep the cost of dining on eastern trains at the same level that they were when the pandemic first hit.


Makes sense.


----------



## Sidney

Remember, flex dining was introduced way before covid. In June 2018 on the CL and LSL and in October 2019 on the CONO,Silver trains,Crescent and Cardinal. I would hope full dining would return on these trains,but it doesn't seem too likely. I hope I'm wrong. It would be nice to have full dining on the Silver Meteor to give passengers a choice.


----------



## adamj023

Amtrak should hire executive chefs like the Airlines and charge premium prices for meals. I realize you can’t cook the meals onboard but you can definitely follow the airline model for how fhe best airlines deliver quality food onboard. No need to downgrade dining when you can profit from quality wine selections, meals, and the like. You have a captive audience and the snacks and the like they generally offer are overpriced that you can get before you board. Create quality and generate more revenue.


----------



## me_little_me

adamj023 said:


> Amtrak should hire executive chefs like the Airlines and charge premium prices for meals. I realize you can’t cook the meals onboard but you can definitely follow the airline model for how fhe best airlines deliver quality food onboard. No need to downgrade dining when you can profit from quality wine selections, meals, and the like.


They did that at one time. Had them create meals. Then it deteriorated to garbage. The chefs are turning over in their graves and they're not even dead yet. Just the thought of "flex" food was enough.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Normal times. I’ve always had a quick time at LAX as well so maybe I’m just lucky.
> 
> Only airports where I’ve waited significantly are Atlanta, Orlando and Denver.


I do manage to get pretty quick times most of the time. But that is often using two additional credentials - PreCheck (via Global Entry) and Clear (extra subscription). I have generally been through Orlando in 5 mins, worst case 10 mins.


----------



## adamj023

Exvalley said:


> I am anxiously awaiting news on the fate of Flexible Dining on eastern trains. I have a trip on the LSL in October.
> 
> My hunch is that Amtrak is taking a wait and see approach to gauge travel demand and how much money they are going to need after this latest round has been used up. They may feel that they are in a better position to ask for money if they keep the cost of dining on eastern trains at the same level that they were when the pandemic first hit.


I hope traditional dining will be restored on or after May when the temporary suspension is up.


----------



## Cal

adamj023 said:


> I hope traditional dining will be restored on or after May when the temporary suspension is up.


It's CONFIRMED that traditional dining is being restored on western routes. We're talking about eastern routes, which we have no idea


----------



## crescent-zephyr

adamj023 said:


> I realize you can’t cook the meals onboard



You can cook the meals on board. Prior to flex dining the Amtrak kitchen was similar to most chain restaurants. A few items actually cooked from scratch and many items arrive pre-cooked that get heated up in a convection oven / steam table etc.

As was mentioned, Amtrak had several “chef inspired meals” like the Lamb, Mahi Mahi, Crab Cakes, and Pasta with Beecher’s Cheese. These were all consistently excellent in my experiences.


----------



## joelkfla

Sidney said:


> Remember, flex dining was introduced way before covid. In June 2018 on the CL and LSL and in October 2019 on the CONO,Silver trains,Crescent and Cardinal. I would hope full dining would return on these trains,but it doesn't seem too likely. I hope I'm wrong. It would be nice to have full dining on the Silver Meteor to give passengers a choice.


Yes, but it was under a federal administration unfavorable to rail travel. Now that we have a favorable administration, there is at least hope of improvement.


----------



## Albi

I am on the CZ #5 right now and had the new omelette for breakfast. It comes with breakfast potatoes (hash browns) and a choice between a muffin or a granola bar.

I also got extra cereal with milk.

The omette wasn't bad at all, surprisingly! 

I had breakfast on the CS #11 in 2019 and THAT omelette (in the traditional dining car!) was a disaster. So my expectations weren't high, but I can recommend to take this new omelette when onboard.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Albi said:


> I am on the CZ #5 right now and had the new omelette for breakfast. It comes with breakfast potatoes (hash browns) and a choice between a muffin or a granola bar.
> 
> I also got extra cereal with milk.
> 
> The omette wasn't bad at all, surprisingly!
> 
> I had breakfast on the CS #11 in 2019 and THAT omelette (in the traditional dining car!) was a disaster. So my expectations weren't high, but I can recommend to take this new omelette when onboard.



When you say choice between muffin and granola bar and extra cereal... do you have to order everything? Or did you have it all delivered to your room? 

The muffins, kind bars, and cereals used to be out and you could help yourself. 

Just wondering if they were now more strict on the breakfast items.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Albi said:


> I am on the CZ #5 right now and had the new omelette for breakfast. It comes with breakfast potatoes (hash browns) and a choice between a muffin or a granola bar.
> 
> I also got extra cereal with milk.
> 
> The omette wasn't bad at all, surprisingly!
> 
> I had breakfast on the CS #11 in 2019 and THAT omelette (in the traditional dining car!) was a disaster. So my expectations weren't high, but I can recommend to take this new omelette when onboard.


I get to try this Breakfast Menu next week on the Texas Eagle during my first Train trip in a year, and since I like Omelettes, this is good to know! ( the Chefs used to make really good Western and Veggie Omelettes on the Western Trains).


----------



## jis

IMO any Chef that can screw up an Omelette should get a special Booby Prize.


----------



## nhow

Bob Dylan said:


> These seem to be the #1 Complaints by most Amtrak fans.
> 
> Better tasting, higher quality meals with Lower Sodium and Sugar ( and probably no Garlic or Peanuts)counts is the way to go when current contracts expire!


I just discovered that all the flex meal dinners (included in our fare for a three day trip) have garlic. I have a severe garlic intolerance. If I have even a little it makes me very sick. We will not be boarding the train from home (flying in from the UK) so can't go grocery shopping prior to the trip. I'm really worried about how to handle this. Even though it means paying for two meals, does anybody know if there's anything garlic free in the club car?


----------



## Cal

nhow said:


> I just discovered that all the flex meal dinners (included in our fare for a three day trip) have garlic. I have a severe garlic intolerance. If I have even a little it makes me very sick. We will not be boarding the train from home (flying in from the UK) so can't go grocery shopping prior to the trip. I'm really worried about how to handle this. Even though it means paying for two meals, does anybody know if there's anything garlic free in the club car?


I'm sorry to hear. 

If your trip is a few days away (I think 70ish hours to be exact), you can call Amtrak and have them stock kosher meals for you. I don't know if these have garlic or not, but they might not. The cafe/club car DOES have things without garlic. 

You can also, at longer fresh air breaks, order food to be delivered to the train with Uber Eats or doordash. If you say which train youre on, many members know where the most ideal places to do this are


----------



## nhow

Cal said:


> I'm sorry to hear.
> 
> If your trip is a few days away (I think 70ish hours to be exact), you can call Amtrak and have them stock kosher meals for you. I don't know if these have garlic or not, but they might not. The cafe/club car DOES have things without garlic.
> 
> You can also, at longer fresh air breaks, order food to be delivered to the train with Uber Eats or doordash. If you say which train youre on, many members know where the most ideal places to do this are


Forgot to mention we're not travelling until September. Thank you so very much for the excellent suggestions. I'll have to look into Kosher meals. I don't think garlic is excluded from Kosher generally but I will certainly find out. Probably will need to check out the club car rather than try to Uber Eats food (a bit fiddly for us). I will also pack some protein bars and nuts but it would be good to be able to find something more substantial for dinners.


----------



## pennyk

nhow said:


> I just discovered that all the flex meal dinners (included in our fare for a three day trip) have garlic. I have a severe garlic intolerance. If I have even a little it makes me very sick. We will not be boarding the train from home (flying in from the UK) so can't go grocery shopping prior to the trip. I'm really worried about how to handle this. Even though it means paying for two meals, does anybody know if there's anything garlic free in the club car?


I, too, am allergic to garlic. I believe the kosher meals also contain garlic. I was fortunate during my last cross country trip that I had diner meals on the western trains and only had to deal with flex-meals on 4 trains. After many months of communicating with Customer Relations by phone and by email, I found a customer relations agent who was able to find alternative meals for me (that I ordered in advance and were loaded on the trains). Unfortunately, that agent is no longer with Amtrak. I have been communicating with another agent in preparation for my next long distance train trip (for which I have no date yet). I will send you a PM.

Prior to finding the first customer relations agent, I was permitted to order food from the cafe car at no charge. II had email authorization from a manager in Miami and I was traveling on Florida trains. At that time, most everything in the cafe contained garlic. I ended up eating many cheese trays and chips. I always bring my own vinegar and olive oil packets since most salad dressing contains garlic.

I certainly sympathize with you.
Welcome to AU


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## pennyk

nhow said:


> Forgot to mention we're not travelling until September. Thank you so very much for the excellent suggestions. I'll have to look into Kosher meals. I don't think garlic is excluded from Kosher generally but I will certainly find out. Probably will need to check out the club car rather than try to Uber Eats food (a bit fiddly for us). I will also pack some protein bars and nuts but it would be good to be able to find something more substantial for dinners.


Depending on your trains, full diners may be back by September. Most likely flex meals will be served on the trains from DC to Chicago and NYC to Chicago.
I always pack lots of nuts. 
BTW, if you are NYC, there is a pizza restaurant across the street from Penn Station that does not put garlic in their pizza sauce. Pizza Suprema.
In Chicago, Beggars Pizza, a block or so away from Union Station, does not put garlic in their pizza sauce.


----------



## TrackWalker

nhow said:


> Forgot to mention we're not travelling until September. Thank you so very much for the excellent suggestions. I'll have to look into Kosher meals. I don't think garlic is excluded from Kosher generally but I will certainly find out. Probably will need to check out the club car rather than try to Uber Eats food (a bit fiddly for us). I will also pack some protein bars and nuts but it would be good to be able to find something more substantial for dinners.



Welcome from this side of the pond to Amtrak Unlimited!

As you can already tell there are Amtrak foodies here!


----------



## nhow

TrackWalker said:


> Welcome from this side of the pond to Amtrak Unlimited!
> 
> As you can already tell there are Amtrak foodies here!


WOW!!! I'm overwhelmed by such lovely and helpful replies!! I would be really psyched if the dining car did reappear by Sept. But I wonder if it really ever will? I would guess Amtrak are cutting costs (labour, mainly) like most other orgs. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. Too bad the Kosher meals have garlic. I'd hoped that might be a good alternative. Our trip is in the Northwest from Minneapolis/St Paul to San Francisco with a change of trains in Portland, Oregon. I think we'll try to get some sort of dinner prior to boarding in St Paul (around 8 PM). As there is a stopover of about 2 hours in Portland I'm hoping to find some place near the station with non-garlic offerings. We have a shorter day trip from San Francisco to Santa Barbara but no dinners there. Defo will be packing nuts, and some non-garlic dressing packets. Not much space in bags but perhaps some peanut butter too. If there is a customer relations person who is able to find some creative workarounds I would love to have their info. Got the email address for CR's.

Again, many. many thanks for all the excellent ideas and help. And to everyone, stay safe!! We're in our 3rd lockdown here. Sigh....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I would strongly recommend that all travelers bring some trusted shelf-stable food from home that can be consumed as needed in the event you cannot find something acceptable on Amtrak (or elsewhere during your trip). I have no severe food allergies but I still bring some durably packaged snacks on most trips just in case the food is inedible or runs out or I get stranded or something. These snacks usually last multiple round trips but better safe than sorry.


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## flitcraft

You will need to check with Customer Relations for the menu for traditional dining rather than flex dining, since it appears you are on the Empire Builder to Portland and the Coast Starlight to San Francisco--both of which are scheduled to be providing traditional dining car service by early this summer. There is a lot more choice available in the traditional dining service, including baked potatoes as a side, which definitely won't include garlic. Do pack along some emergency vittles, just for peace of mind's sake, and assuming that you're in the sleepers, be aware that you are allowed to consume your own alcohol while in your room. The two trains you are taking feature spectacular scenery, and having a glass of a tasty adult beverage if you are so inclined can add to the enjoyment.


----------



## Cal

nhow said:


> WOW!!! I'm overwhelmed by such lovely and helpful replies!! I would be really psyched if the dining car did reappear by Sept. But I wonder if it really ever will? I would guess Amtrak are cutting costs (labour, mainly) like most other orgs. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. Too bad the Kosher meals have garlic. I'd hoped that might be a good alternative. Our trip is in the Northwest from Minneapolis/St Paul to San Francisco with a change of trains in Portland, Oregon. I think we'll try to get some sort of dinner prior to boarding in St Paul (around 8 PM). As there is a stopover of about 2 hours in Portland I'm hoping to find some place near the station with non-garlic offerings. We have a shorter day trip from San Francisco to Santa Barbara but no dinners there. Defo will be packing nuts, and some non-garlic dressing packets. Not much space in bags but perhaps some peanut butter too. If there is a customer relations person who is able to find some creative workarounds I would love to have their info. Got the email address for CR's.
> 
> Again, many. many thanks for all the excellent ideas and help. And to everyone, stay safe!! We're in our 3rd lockdown here. Sigh....


You should have traditional dining by then


----------



## nhow

Devil's Advocate said:


> I would strongly recommend that all travelers bring some trusted shelf-stable food from home that can be consumed as needed in the event you cannot find something acceptable on Amtrak (or elsewhere during your trip). I have no severe food allergies but I still bring some durably packaged snacks on most trips just in case the food is inedible or runs out or I get stranded or something. These snacks usually last multiple round trips but better safe than sorry.


Yes, I plan to do that but not too much room in luggage or much opportunity to food shop in Minneapolis. Nuts and crackers probably are easy to pack.


----------



## RickIronton

Let's just eliminate the dining perk for sleepers and price accordingly.
That would eliminate the need for a dining car and all passengers would use the lounge/cafe.
Of course, that would stick Amtrak with multi-million dollars of dining car stock and maybe that would shock our do nothing politicians into some creative and sensible options but I doubt it!


----------



## flitcraft

Assuming that you have a reasonable layover in Portland--remember, trains can run late--I would suggest that you head to the nearby Whole Foods Market, where you can get snacks, prepared salads and sandwiches, deli foods, etc., all nicely packaged for takeaway. Also, fresh fruit and the afore-mentioned adult beverages, too. It's about a 15 minute walk from the station, and you can leave your luggage at the station. But it's also about a one minute cab ride if you're short on time. You'll be able to check on the ingredients list to be sure that what you're getting will be safe to eat, too.


----------



## Palmetto

I say: bring back meal stops.


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## Dustyroad

nhow said:


> Yes, I plan to do that but not too much room in luggage or much opportunity to food shop in Minneapolis. Nuts and crackers probably are easy to pack.


I was very happy to see the sqeezable peanut butter on the shelf at the grocery store. That and some good crackers with some fruit would tide me over if need be. I hope passengers with allergies get their problems solved. I am lucky and don't have that issue.


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## Asher

Even if you able to eat all the furnished meals, I like trail mix with dried fruit mixed in. Along with crackers and vino for support.


----------



## Exvalley

If bringing food from abroad, just be aware of the restrictions. Be sure to declare whatever you have in order to avoid starting your trip off with a fine. The agents are very understanding if you have something that is not allowed so long as you declared it.

Here is a good synopsis: CBP Customer Service.


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## TrackWalker

flitcraft said:


> Assuming that you have a reasonable layover in Portland--remember, trains can run late--I would suggest that you head to the nearby Whole Foods Market, where you can get snacks, prepared salads and sandwiches, deli foods, etc., all nicely packaged for takeaway. Also, fresh fruit and the afore-mentioned adult beverages, too. It's about a 15 minute walk from the station, and you can leave your luggage at the station. But it's also about a one minute cab ride if you're short on time. You'll be able to check on the ingredients list to be sure that what you're getting will be safe to eat, too.



I highly recommend also World Foods in Portland. It's a few blocks closer and quite the selection, too. 

Rembrandt extra aged Guada hard cheese...Mmmm...


----------



## jiml

Palmetto said:


> I say: bring back meal stops.


Fred Harvey would agree.


----------



## Mailliw

That would wreak havoc with schedules and travel times.


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> I say: bring back meal stops.



Yes. Because that’s the only possible way to provide passengers with decent food.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes. Because that’s the only possible way to provide passengers with decent food.


Unless Amtrak just has a real dining car, which is not unrealistic. 

Oh wait, this is Amtrak, nevermind.


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## Albi

crescent-zephyr said:


> When you say choice between muffin and granola bar and extra cereal... do you have to order everything? Or did you have it all delivered to your room?
> 
> The muffins, kind bars, and cereals used to be out and you could help yourself.
> 
> Just wondering if they were now more strict on the breakfast items.


Sorry for my very late response, I was out of cell service for most of the day. But it is certainly worth it, this route (CZ#5) is overwhelmingly breathtaking in several ways (beauty and height).

No, the breakfast was NOT delivered to my roomette, I went to the dining car and was served. Same for lunch (had the cod, another positive surprise), I went to the dining car and sat all alone at a table. Parties of several people are sitting together.

So I ordered the omelette which comes with a choice of muffin or Kind bar. When I was eating, the attendant asked me if I wanted anything else. I was surprised because from the menue it looked like you can EITHER get the continental breakfast OR the omelette with hasbrowns and muffin or kind bar.

So I asked if I could get raisin bran, and it got served with milk. And I asked for a 2nd orange juice, got that, too.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Albi said:


> Sorry for my very late response, I was out of cell service for most of the day. But it is certainly worth it, this route (CZ#5) is overwhelmingly breathtaking in several ways (beauty and height).
> 
> No, the breakfast was NOT delivered to my roomette, I went to the dining car and was served. Same for lunch (had the cod, another positive surprise), I went to the dining car and sat all alone at a table. Parties of several people are sitting together.
> 
> So I ordered the omelette which comes with a choice of muffin or Kind bar. When I was eating, the attendant asked me if I wanted anything else. I was surprised because from the menue it looked like you can EITHER get the continental breakfast OR the omelette with hasbrowns and muffin or kind bar.
> 
> So I asked if I could get raisin bran, and it got served with milk. And I asked for a 2nd orange juice, got that, too.



Oh ok - that’s nice. Glad you’ve got a good crew and glad the food is decent. 

Yes the scenery on the Zephyr is unbelievable. It’s my favorite by far!


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## Mailliw

It sure would be nice if Amtrak could give private room customers something approaching the same premium dining experience when they're actually on board as they do in the Metropolitan Lounge.


----------



## me_little_me

Mailliw said:


> It sure would be nice if Amtrak could give private room customers something approaching the same premium dining experience when they're actually on board as they do in the Metropolitan Lounge.


Is that complementary? The reference doesn't say. If it is paid, then it sounds like Amtrak is getting rid of the free stuff and charging for it as well as other things that were not available.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Is that complementary? The reference doesn't say. If it is paid, then it sounds like Amtrak is getting rid of the free stuff and charging for it as well as other things that were not available.



It would be very odd if it was paid. The food and beverage in all other Amtrak lounges are complimentary.


----------



## TrackWalker

me_little_me said:


> Is that complementary? The reference doesn't say. If it is paid, then it sounds like Amtrak is getting rid of the free stuff and charging for it as well as other things that were not available.



The reference does say.

NEW YORK – Amtrak customers now have access to *complimentary *premium food and beverage products in the Metropolitan Lounge at the Moynihan Train Hall in New York City...


----------



## me_little_me

TrackWalker said:


> The reference does say.
> 
> NEW YORK – Amtrak customers now have access to *complimentary *premium food and beverage products in the Metropolitan Lounge at the Moynihan Train Hall in New York City...


Thank you. I missed it.


----------



## AFS1970

I just saw a video of a train ride, that started at Moynihan hall, the Metropolitan Lounge had no food and he said that was due to the pandemic. I hope there is food now.


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## TrackWalker

AFS1970 said:


> ...I hope there is food now.



According to Mailliw's link there is.

->Metropolitan Lounge<- 3/25/2021


----------



## lordsigma

Mailliw said:


> It sure would be nice if Amtrak could give private room customers something approaching the same premium dining experience when they're actually on board as they do in the Metropolitan Lounge.


The word seems to be that improvements are coming (as previously discussed). Hopefully when trains go back to daily.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

anumberone said:


> I don't think its hard to wear some type pajamas, go down the isle to the restroom. Its easier than fumbling around trying to use the commode in the roomette in the dark of the night. Unless maybe you're in the room by yourself.



I would never share a Roomette with anyone. They are far too small and I totally disagree that it is not inconvenient to have to go down the hall in the middle of the night. Furthermore I do not think shared bathrooms are a good idea with Covid - and I'm not impressed with Amtrak's hygiene standards.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Sidney said:


> I always wear shorts to bed,so when nature calls as it usually does overnight I just grab a t shirt and venture out. If you are alone having a toilet in your room is a nice plus,but sharing the roomette with another person is tough when one has to go.



Pre Amtrak's Superliner / Viewliner Roomettes, Roomettes ("Heritage Cars") were designed for ONE, not TWO people but under Amtrak standards declined. They are large enough for one person, not two.


----------



## tricia

Ferroequinologist said:


> I would never share a Roomette with anyone. They are far too small and I totally disagree that it is not inconvenient to have to go down the hall in the middle of the night. Furthermore I do not think shared bathrooms are a good idea with Covid - and I'm not impressed with Amtrak's hygiene standards.



I disagree about the shared bathrooms and Covid. The bathrooms are so small that you can bring a spray bottle of alcohol with you and easily spray every surface you're going to touch. Then, when you go back to your roomette, use hand sanitizer. Been there, done that last year.

And if you're uneasy about Amtrak's "hygiene standards" you might want to make that spray bottle a permanent part of your travel kit.


----------



## Dustyroad

Even before Covid I always carried lots of travel Lysol wipes with me to wipe down the restroom in the car. So doing a cleaning job in their won't be any different now for me when I go on my trip in September. I also plan on spraying down the cabin, plus the knobs and handles when I board. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Asher

Ferroequinologist said:


> I would never share a Roomette with anyone. They are far too small and I totally disagree that it is not inconvenient to have to go down the hall in the middle of the night. Furthermore I do not think shared bathrooms are a good idea with Covid - and I'm not impressed with Amtrak's hygiene standards.



I'm cool with the small roomette with my wife. It's cozy and after getting over the shock it's amazing how comfortable it is. I have noticed some travelers freaking out at first glance and making arrangements to switch to a larger room.


----------



## Cal

anumberone said:


> I'm cool with the small roomette with my wife. It's cozy and after getting over the shock it's amazing how comfortable it is. I have noticed some travelers freaking out at first glance and making arrangements to switch to a larger room.


I agree, I have taken the roomette with another person many many times. It's cozy, and it works. You're not in it for more than 60 hours if you're on the Eagle. 

And I don't mind the shared bathrooms, they are in a fine condition and not too many people use them, so.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ferroequinologist said:


> Pre Amtrak's Superliner / Viewliner Roomettes, Roomettes ("Heritage Cars") were designed for ONE, not TWO people but under Amtrak standards declined. They are large enough for one person, not two.



Heritage Roomettes feel more claustrophobic with 1 person than an Amtrak roomette feels with 2. IMHO of course.

The reason they are called “Roomette” and not room is because of how small they are. They are the “budget sleeper option” that everyone says they want.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

anumberone said:


> I have noticed some travelers freaking out at first glance and making arrangements to switch to a larger room.


This was an important if overloooked aspect of discontinued outreach programs like National Train Day; giving new and infrequent customers a chance to see what to expect in person. Now they get a picture and some measurements.


----------



## Asher

This was an important if overloooked aspect of discontinued outreach programs like National Train Day; giving new and infrequent customers a chance to see what to expect in person. Now they get a picture and some measurements.
[/QUOTE]

A picture is worth a thousand words doesn’t hold true relating to the size of a roomette.


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> Heritage Roomettes feel more claustrophobic with 1 person than an Amtrak roomette feels with 2. IMHO of course.
> 
> The reason they are called “Roomette” and not room is because of how small they are. They are the “budget sleeper option” that everyone says they want.


Are you possibly comparing Amtrak Roomettes with Heritage Single or Double Slumbercoach rooms? 
Because the Heritage standard Roomette is the same size as an Amtrak Roomette. And they only sleep one. They are comparable to a Viewliner Roomette in total volume, but are larger than a Superliner Roomette due to the latter's low ceiling. I don't find the Heritage Roomette at all claustrophobic, and really enjoyed their larger, thicker, and more comfortable 'murphy bed'...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Are you possibly comparing Amtrak Roomettes with Heritage Single or Double Slumbercoach rooms?
> Because the Heritage standard Roomette is the same size as an Amtrak Roomette. And they only sleep one. They are comparable to a Viewliner Roomette in total volume, but are larger than a Superliner Roomette due to the latter's low ceiling. I don't find the Heritage Roomette at all claustrophobic, and really enjoyed their larger, thicker, and more comfortable 'murphy bed'...



No I’m comparing heritage roomette with Amtrak roomette. I agree the bed is more comfortable but yes during daytime use it feels much more like I’m stuck in a small box than an Amtrak roomette.

I’m aware that the amount of space in the box is the same, I’m saying the Amtrak design uses that space better. Again all my opinion.


----------



## Albi

Isn't this the thread about dining?

I have some news:

Right now on #2 Sunset Ltd the dining car atttendant announced that he has two specials for lunch that are not listed on the menue: a vegetarian cheese manicotti dish and turkey with cranberries and vegetables. 

Additionally, in case you don't like this nor the printed menue, you can get a voucher in the dining car for the cafe car, where you can get pizza, cheeseburgers, hot dogs, veggie burgers etc. 

That's the first time I heard this! Has anyone else has heard this before? Of course you were always free to purchase stuff downstairs in the cafe, but these vouchers must be new.

When José came by to take orders I asked him about the specials, and he said he hasn't had much demand for that. Weird, aren't ppl getting tired of the same old same old? But then, the train left last night, ppl might be on the first round of meals here. I will certainly go for the specials! And tomorrow I'll see what the cafe stuff is like!

I still have a few more days onboard, so this feels good to me.

Btw, I don't think I mentioned it, on the Zephyr earlier this week I had the cod (pretty good but not crispy, as sealed in plastic) and the shrimp in lobster sauce.

The latter didn't like me, wanted to leave my digestion system promptly. It didn't taste bad and I really don't think it was spoilt or so. I wasn't really sick, just had diarrhea afterwards. So I'll stay away from that now.

I also had the Asian noodles which I had plenty of last year on a previous cross country trip. It was fine then, my main complaint was the small size of it. Not much food there for lunch or dinner, you'll need an extra sandwich or so. But otherwise it was fine. 

Had another asian noodle bowl on the CZ this week and I felt not so good afterwards. Not getting sick, just unwell for a couple of hours. 

I am normally not a person with a sensitive stomach, have no allergies or so, therefore I found it odd. So no asian noodles and no shrimp/lobster for me anymore on this trip!


----------



## IndyLions

Albi said:


> Right now on #2 Sunset Ltd the dining car atttendant announced that he has two specials for lunch that are not listed on the menue: a vegetarian cheese manicotti dish and turkey with cranberries and vegetables.
> 
> Additionally, in case you don't like this nor the printed menue, you can get a voucher in the dining car for the cafe car, where you can get pizza, cheeseburgers, hot dogs, veggie burgers etc.
> 
> I am normally not a person with a sensitive stomach, have no allergies or so, therefore I found it odd. So no asian noodles and no shrimp/lobster for me anymore on this trip!



That could be great news on the specials and the vouchers. At least it could mean that they are understanding that offering alternatives to the contemporary dining is a good thing right now – especially on longer routes.



Albi said:


> I am normally not a person with a sensitive stomach, have no allergies or so, therefore I found it odd. So no asian noodles and no shrimp/lobster for me anymore on this trip!



My wife and I just came off of four days of contemporary dining (two days on the train, five days at our destination, two more days on the train).

Relative to all of our other Amtrak food experiences over the years - this was unquestionably the worst. However, we had appropriate expectations and we survived.

But there is no question that the meals did impact my wife’s digestive system somewhat - and she doesn’t have a sensitive stomach. Here’s to hoping that the contemporary dining will be gone forever from western trains before the summer, and completely from all trains by the end of 2021.

Nobody is expecting gourmet dining, but the standard does need to be raised. I think a majority of Amtrak riders would certainly agree with that. They can’t use diners as an excuse, and they can’t use Mica as an excuse. And sometime soon, they won’t be able to use Covid as an excuse either.


----------



## Cal

Albi said:


> Isn't this the thread about dining?
> 
> I have some news:
> 
> Right now on #2 Sunset Ltd the dining car atttendant announced that he has two specials for lunch that are not listed on the menue: a vegetarian cheese manicotti dish and turkey with cranberries and vegetables.
> 
> Additionally, in case you don't like this nor the printed menue, you can get a voucher in the dining car for the cafe car, where you can get pizza, cheeseburgers, hot dogs, veggie burgers etc.
> 
> That's the first time I heard this! Has anyone else has heard this before? Of course you were always free to purchase stuff downstairs in the cafe, but these vouchers must be new.
> 
> When José came by to take orders I asked him about the specials, and he said he hasn't had much demand for that. Weird, aren't ppl getting tired of the same old same old? But then, the train left last night, ppl might be on the first round of meals here. I will certainly go for the specials! And tomorrow I'll see what the cafe stuff is like!
> 
> I still have a few more days onboard, so this feels good to me.
> 
> Btw, I don't think I mentioned it, on the Zephyr earlier this week I had the cod (pretty good but not crispy, as sealed in plastic) and the shrimp in lobster sauce.
> 
> The latter didn't like me, wanted to leave my digestion system promptly. It didn't taste bad and I really don't think it was spoilt or so. I wasn't really sick, just had diarrhea afterwards. So I'll stay away from that now.
> 
> I also had the Asian noodles which I had plenty of last year on a previous cross country trip. It was fine then, my main complaint was the small size of it. Not much food there for lunch or dinner, you'll need an extra sandwich or so. But otherwise it was fine.
> 
> Had another asian noodle bowl on the CZ this week and I felt not so good afterwards. Not getting sick, just unwell for a couple of hours.
> 
> I am normally not a person with a sensitive stomach, have no allergies or so, therefore I found it odd. So no asian noodles and no shrimp/lobster for me anymore on this trip!


Boarding a train tonight! Hoping I can get a free pizza from the cafe instead of flex dining for some meals, I personally like the pizzas


----------



## IndyLions

Cal said:


> Boarding a train tonight! Hoping I can get a free pizza from the cafe instead of flex dining for some meals, I personally like the pizzas


On one of my 8 recent Amtrak meals - I took a much needed break from contemporary dining for a Hebrew National hot dog from the cafe. Frankly, it tasted great!


----------



## railiner

Albi said:


> Isn't this the thread about dining?


Yes, sorry...didn't mean to 'hijack' the thread, but just wanted to respond to posts that already had. Besides, "dining" seems to come up in lots of other threads...


----------



## tricia

IndyLions said:


> That could be great news on the specials and the vouchers. At least it could mean that they are understanding that offering alternatives to the contemporary dining is a good thing right now – especially on longer routes.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I just came off of four days of contemporary dining (two days on the train, five days at our destination, two more days on the train).
> 
> Relative to all of our other Amtrak food experiences over the years - this was unquestionably the worst. However, we had appropriate expectations and we survived.
> 
> But there is no question that the meals did impact my wife’s digestive system somewhat - and she doesn’t have a sensitive stomach. Here’s to hoping that the contemporary dining will be gone forever from western trains before the summer, and completely from all trains by the end of 2021.
> 
> Nobody is expecting gourmet dining, but the standard does need to be raised. I think a majority of Amtrak riders would certainly agree with that. They can’t use diners as an excuse, and they can’t use Mica as an excuse. And sometime soon, they won’t be able to use Covid as an excuse either.



I too feel like my digestion's out of whack after a cross-country Amtrak trip--both with the previous cooked-on-board meals and now with the flex menu. I've attributed that to the extensive presence of chemical preservatives and other such additives in nearly all the food. Most meals I eat when I'm not traveling are cooked at home, using ingredients that don't rely heavily on chemical preservatives. So I think I'm not used to that, and my gut doesn't like it.


----------



## Cal

On the Chief right now. I skipped flex dining and had a lovely meal before we boarded. But in the dining car there are flowers at all the tables in use, so seems like we have a good dining car attendant!


----------



## Barb Stout

With regard to indigestion and other GI issues, sometimes when traveling on a train, I too have gotten indigestion after eating both flex fair as well as traditional dining whereas it doesn't happen nearly as often when I'm on dry land. I have assumed it's because the train motion jostles my innards, so when I'm eating, the pot (belly) is getting stirred somewhat creating air bubbles and so forth.


----------



## Asher

I'm beginning to get a queasyI stomach just reading about the dining experience suffered by our last few travelers. Hopefully Cal will be able to report on some palatable meals.


----------



## Cal

anumberone said:


> I'm beginning to get an queasyI stomach just reading about the dining experience suffered by our last few travelers. Hopefully Cal will be able to report on some palatable meals.


I haven’t had an issue with Amtrak food, and I am OK with a few flex meals, so


----------



## Cal

Currently waiting for breakfast


----------



## Cal

I like the flowers!


----------



## Cal

Tried the omelette, it was fine. I feel fine as of now


----------



## Cal

Due to confusion last night, the LSA is doing lunch and dinner by seatings with three available. We’re choosing to skip lunch (having take out) and having the last seating at dinner. They had us order the meals as well as she said it’d take 45 minutes to cook


----------



## Twinkletoes

I have followed the variations on the topics of the toilet fixture in roomettes, roomette size, and occupancy limits. There’s no universal answer about roomette travel. There are so many variables: [1] personality (eeew factor re toilets); [2] tolerance for close quarters, [3] physical size -- height and weight; and [4] activity capacity and level – walking around inside the train and outside on “smoke” stops. Also, in the Before Times, you could schmooze in the diner 3 times a day with a changing cast of fellow travelers. I experienced “Flex” Dining when it first hit the Lake Shore Limited and later on the Crescent. I never considered it as being anything other than a disingenuous name bamboozle for a cost-cutting measure. It was tolerated because I value most the flat sleeping opportunity and environmental control over when I sleep. I will exist the first day on home or take-out brought aboard and the second day on Flex or snack car breakfast and with a brief hit at the high sugar, grease, and sodium offerings.

My personality does not favor shared toilets. A career in public health, alerted me to sanitation in public shared spaces. It would be interesting to know if Amtrak cleaning staff receive the same infection control specific training that we use in hospitals. As others have mentioned, I carried and used disinfectants (disposable gloves and wipes) long before COVID-19. Another pathogen of concern was norovirus (recall cruise ship outbreaks). Alcohol (as in hand sanitizer) does not work on them. They need bleach (chlorine or hydrogen peroxide) and good hand washing. I won’t go further, but advise people to research and read labels.


----------



## lordsigma

The cafe car voucher and specials are a good idea to add more choices - unfortunately the cafe car has also seen cuts so basically you can get a microwave burger or pizza. I guess it can break things up if you get sick of the flex meals or don’t want a heavy meal at lunch time. It would be a bigger benefit in normal times when salads and sandwiches are sold in the cafe car.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> The cafe car voucher and specials are a good idea to add more choices - unfortunately the cafe car has also seen cuts so basically you can get a microwave burger or pizza. I guess it can break things up if you get sick of the flex meals or don’t want a heavy meal at lunch time. It would be a bigger benefit in normal times when salads and sandwiches are sold in the cafe car.



The current menu posted still has chicken wings and “skillet Mac n cheese” - the mac n cheese I had years ago on the cascades bistro car was pretty good but I’m not sure if this is the same one. 

Also can still get the cheese and cracker tray and pretzels and hummus. 

Agreed it’s not as good as the full cafe menu, but still better than flex dining imho!


----------



## IndyLions

To me the cafe vouchers reflects a bit of an attitude change, where they went ahead and implemented (at least in a limited fashion) a common sense solution some had asked for as a change-up to the limited menu.
Two limited menus are better than one


----------



## IndyLions

Also, respectfully - I think there has been a lot of over dramatization of the whole flex dining thing on our forum.

I am firmly on the record as hating the concept, the whole procedure - and not being a fan of the food. I can’t wait for it to be replaced with something better and for it to go away forever.

But, it is not “worse than TV dinners”, “absolute garbage” or “not even close to the quality of lean cuisine and other similar microwave fare”.

It is firmly in the center of all of the above - not markedly better, not markedly worse. It (like most of the above) is laced with preservatives, not particularly healthy, and not an option for those with significant dietary restrictions.

But...it is not without a similar level of taste and enjoyment as those other unhealthy instant meal options.

Again, I can’t wait for it to go away - but after 7 meals (and a cafe hot dog) I live on to tell the tale.


----------



## RovinMoses

My wife and I have shared roomettes many times and I always get the top bunk! Getting old for the gymnastics required to get in and out of bunk with low headroom  No problem sharing space and using restroom down the hall, and we prefer to save money for the next adventure. Leaving Tuesday on EB, PDX>CHI. Thought about postponing until late May and return of "better" food service, but actually am curious about flex meals since I will eat anything! Also excited about first trip in a year.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Twinkletoes said:


> I have followed the variations on the topics of the toilet fixture in roomettes, roomette size, and occupancy limits. There’s no universal answer about roomette travel. There are so many variables: [1] personality (eeew factor re toilets); [2] tolerance for close quarters, [3] physical size -- height and weight; and [4] activity capacity and level – walking around inside the train and outside on “smoke” stops. Also, in the Before Times, you could schmooze in the diner 3 times a day with a changing cast of fellow travelers. I experienced “Flex” Dining when it first hit the Lake Shore Limited and later on the Crescent. I never considered it as being anything other than a disingenuous name bamboozle for a cost-cutting measure. It was tolerated because I value most the flat sleeping opportunity and environmental control over when I sleep. I will exist the first day on home or take-out brought aboard and the second day on Flex or snack car breakfast and with a brief hit at the high sugar, grease, and sodium offerings.
> 
> My personality does not favor shared toilets. A career in public health, alerted me to sanitation in public shared spaces. It would be interesting to know if Amtrak cleaning staff receive the same infection control specific training that we use in hospitals. As others have mentioned, I carried and used disinfectants (disposable gloves and wipes) long before COVID-19. Another pathogen of concern was norovirus (recall cruise ship outbreaks). Alcohol (as in hand sanitizer) does not work on them. They need bleach (chlorine or hydrogen peroxide) and good hand washing. I won’t go further, but advise people to research and read labels.



Thanks. Interesting and informative comments, especially regarding viruses that are resistant to alcohol. I have not taken a LD trip on Amtrak since the pandemic started (just trips of a couple of hours or less). On these short trips I avoid the train toilet. I had thought that when I go back to travelling in a Bedroom I would take 70% alcohol with me and sanitize the bathroom and other surfaces I'm likely to touch. Now from what you say I might be wise to take some bleach or Hydrogen Peroxide as well. 

I agree with your other comments. As for Roomettes, the irony that Roomettes designed decades before Amtrak even came into existence, were meant for ONE PERSON - and that was in the age when few Americans were overweight. Now that obesity is the norm, Amtrak has crammed two people into a space that should only accommodate one. Another factor that I have not seen mentioned here is that many older people need to use the bathroom in the middle of the night, hence rooms without toilets are a particular inconvenience - and in the age of Covid a health hazard.


----------



## Cal

Skipping flex meals for lunch!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

IndyLions said:


> Also, respectfully - I think there has been a lot of over dramatization of the whole flex dining thing on our forum.
> 
> I am firmly on the record as hating the concept, the whole procedure - and not being a fan of the food. I can’t wait for it to be replaced with something better and for it to go away forever.
> 
> But, it is not “worse than TV dinners”, “absolute garbage” or “not even close to the quality of lean cuisine and other similar microwave fare”.
> 
> It is firmly in the center of all of the above - not markedly better, not markedly worse. It (like most of the above) is laced with preservatives, not particularly healthy, and not an option for those with significant dietary restrictions.
> 
> But...it is not without a similar level of taste and enjoyment as those other unhealthy instant meal options.
> 
> Again, I can’t wait for it to go away - but after 7 meals (and a cafe hot dog) I live on to tell the tale.



So why can't the frozen meals be as good as airline first class? Aren't we also first class passengers paying premium fares? Amtrak can provide quality frozen food but it seems obvious that they don't want to. Or are the expectations of Amtrak's sleeping car passengers much less than those of airline first class passengers? I don't care if the traditional dining car returns. I don't think everything they served in the dining car was fresh anyway. In fact, most was probably frozen. I'd be perfectly happy with good quality frozen food served in my room. I just don't want the unhealthy junk they offer now. I'd rather have a good sandwich or the kind of cheese and cold meat plate they offered when they first eliminated traditional dining on the Lake Shore. That was actually a really high quality offering - and it even came with a half bottle of good wine. No more.


----------



## jis

Why one earth do some insist on discussing Toilets in gory detail in a thread on Dining beats me. But I guess some are more focused on the other end of their body


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> Skipping flex meals for lunch!


Nice! What station? Assuming you pre-ordered from the train, how did you coordinate delivery?


----------



## Asher

Ferro ——- mentioned 
Now that obesity is the norm, Amtrak has crammed two people into a space that should only accommodate one. 

Yep, but that falls under the category 
Size Matters. 

But hey, how bout that Pizza Cal scored.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Nice! What station? Assuming you pre-ordered from the train, how did you coordinate delivery?


Albuquerque! We called ahead a few times a little under an hour out, but was disconnected multiple times due to no signal. Eventually about 30 minutes out we called and ordered it. Said we were on the Amtrak and asked for it to be delivered to the train. We were nervous was our arrival time was bumped up. We arrived and about 10-15 minutes after we were in our room eating it. Very tasty


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> I like the flowers!


Silk or natural?


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Why one earth do some insist on discussing Toilets in gory detail in a thread on Dining beats me. But I guess some are more focused on the other end of their body


When you eat flex food, they are related!


----------



## Cal

joelkfla said:


> Silk or natural?


I never bothered to check, seemed like silk


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> The current menu posted still has chicken wings and “skillet Mac n cheese” - the mac n cheese I had years ago on the cascades bistro car was pretty good but I’m not sure if this is the same one.
> 
> Also can still get the cheese and cracker tray and pretzels and hummus.
> 
> Agreed it’s not as good as the full cafe menu, but still better than flex dining imho!


It does appear they are offering a couple additional choices on the long distance cafe car menu. On the NEC (last train I went to the cafe car in) it literally is just the burger the hot dog and the pizza. I guess we can agree to disagree on it being better...I’m ok with the burgers but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the microwave burger is better than all the flex meals....I have a couple of the flex meals I don’t mind but admittedly I’d probably get tired on a two night trip if I had to have them for every meal. But I’d probably be apt to hit the cafe car for lunch and have a flex meal for dinner.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> It does appear they are offering a couple additional choices on the long distance cafe car menu. On the NEC (last train I went to the cafe car in) it literally is just the burger the hot dog and the pizza. I guess we can agree to disagree on it being better...I’m ok with the burgers but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the microwave burger is better than all the flex meals....I have a couple of the flex meals I don’t mind but admittedly I’d probably get tired on a two night trip if I had to have them for every meal. But I’d probably be apt to hit the cafe car for lunch and have a flex meal for dinner.


Are you taking about meals only? Bechase the Chief cafe also has the normal snacks (chips, candy, etc)


----------



## Barb Stout

Cal said:


> Albuquerque! We called ahead a few times a little under an hour out, but was disconnected multiple times due to no signal. Eventually about 30 minutes out we called and ordered it. Said we were on the Amtrak and asked for it to be delivered to the train. We were nervous was our arrival time was bumped up. We arrived and about 10-15 minutes after we were in our room eating it. Very tasty


Which restaurant in ABQ? Sorry that I failed to wave at you. You went through ABQ on Sunday?


----------



## Cal

Barb Stout said:


> Which restaurant in ABQ? Sorry that I failed to wave at you. You went through ABQ on Sunday?


JCs New York Pizza department


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> JCs New York Pizza department


Decent pizza too! Nothing is better than sitting at JC's with a pizza and beer on a Saturday night and watch the parade of wild looking vehicles going in both directions on old Rte 66 (Central Ave) at 20mph just showing off.


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> JCs New York Pizza department


You should add a note to the older thread regarding on-train food ordering.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Are you taking about meals only? Bechase the Chief cafe also has the normal snacks (chips, candy, etc)


Yes talking meals (not chips, snacks, etc)


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> You should add a note to the older thread regarding on-train food ordering.


If I remember later!


----------



## Dustyroad

me_little_me said:


> Decent pizza too! Nothing is better than sitting at JC's with a pizza and beer on a Saturday night and watch the parade of wild looking vehicles going in both directions on old Rte 66 (Central Ave) at 20mph just showing off.


What memories you have brought back LOL. Only we rode around on what we called '' the one ways '' in our 1950's/60's cars drinking cans of beer hidden from the cops. Ohh the good ole days. Sorry for stealing the post.


----------



## jpakala

For sleeping car accommodations Viewliners are nicer than Superliners because the ceilings are higher (thus less claustrophobic as well as nicer for the upper berth person), there are no stairways to climb, the rooms have twice as many windows, and you don't have to go down the hall (let alone stairs) to use the restroom (though Viewliner II roomettes have only a sink). The Viewliner wheelchair-accessible bedroom is many times superior to the Superliner's with its narrow beds, no ladder, toilet in the room, etc.


----------



## Cal

jpakala said:


> For sleeping car accommodations Viewliners are nicer than Superliners because the ceilings are higher (thus less claustrophobic as well as nicer for the upper berth person), there are no stairways to climb, the rooms have twice as many windows, and you don't have to go down the hall (let alone stairs) to use the restroom (though Viewliner II roomettes have only a sink). The Viewliner wheelchair-accessible bedroom is many times superior to the Superliner's with its narrow beds, no ladder, toilet in the room, etc.


I don’t mind having to walk a short distance to the bathroom, and neither do most people. And the superliners have ladders..


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> I don’t mind having to walk a short distance to the bathroom, and neither do most people. And the superliners have ladders..


You're young.  Some of us aren't anymore.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> You're young.  Some of us aren't anymore.


Fair point. However a walk a few meters never killed anybody!


----------



## west point

If Superliners were 2 - 3 feet taller then most of the restricted headroom problems would not be there. But forget it Superliners and any replacement cannot be taller due to height problems at Chicago Union Station.


----------



## jpakala

Superliners do not have ladders to the upper berth in the wheelchair-accessible bedrooms. Viewliners have nice carpeted steps on their ladder, which has a place for it during the daytime on the wall toward the car's aisle. There also is a window in that wall and it's across from an aisle window. On the room's outside wall are two large windows, one above the other. And the shower/bathroom is huge because it can accommodate a wheelchair.


----------



## me_little_me

jpakala said:


> For sleeping car accommodations Viewliners are nicer than Superliners because the ceilings are higher (thus less claustrophobic as well as nicer for the upper berth person), there are no stairways to climb, the rooms have twice as many windows, and you don't have to go down the hall (let alone stairs) to use the restroom (though Viewliner II roomettes have only a sink). The Viewliner wheelchair-accessible bedroom is many times superior to the Superliner's with its narrow beds, no ladder, toilet in the room, etc.


On the other hand, with greater capacity in a car (7 total BRs vs 3*), there is more chance to get a low bucket especially in roomettes. The VL trains have too few of either.

* Both including Handicapped and - in Superliners, family


----------



## IndyLions

jpakala said:


> For sleeping car accommodations Viewliners are nicer than Superliners because the ceilings are higher (thus less claustrophobic as well as nicer for the upper berth person), there are no stairways to climb, the rooms have twice as many windows, and you don't have to go down the hall (let alone stairs) to use the restroom (though Viewliner II roomettes have only a sink). The Viewliner wheelchair-accessible bedroom is many times superior to the Superliner's with its narrow beds, no ladder, toilet in the room, etc.



The VLII H room I peeked into on the Silver Meteor last week had the restroom in the bedroom - not separate. I believe that’s a change from the VLI to VLII.


----------



## IndyLions

jpakala said:


> Superliners do not have ladders to the upper berth in the wheelchair-accessible bedrooms. Viewliners have nice carpeted steps on their ladder, which has a place for it during the daytime on the wall toward the car's aisle. There also is a window in that wall and it's across from an aisle window. On the room's outside wall are two large windows, one above the other. And the shower/bathroom is huge because it can accommodate a wheelchair.



In the VLIIs, the dedicated “ladder closet” adjacent to the aisle is gone. They store the ladder on the bunk during the day.


----------



## Cal

jpakala said:


> Superliners do not have ladders to the upper berth in the wheelchair-accessible bedrooms. Viewliners have nice carpeted steps on their ladder, which has a place for it during the daytime on the wall toward the car's aisle. There also is a window in that wall and it's across from an aisle window. On the room's outside wall are two large windows, one above the other. And the shower/bathroom is huge because it can accommodate a wheelchair.


Okay. Thanks for clarifying


----------



## Cal

I will say, I slept in the upper bunk in a bedroom last night (and will tonight). I thought it was fine, just a little small. But this is a train and it is public transportation, so I thought it was totally fine. I am about 5’7 for reference


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I will say, I slept in the upper bunk in a bedroom last night (and will tonight). I thought it was fine, just a little small. But this is a train and it is public transportation, so I thought it was totally fine. I am about 5’7 for reference


Superliner Bedroom upper berths are fine. It is the uppers in the Roomettes that seem to give a sneak preview of the fine accommodation when one is proverbially put six feet under.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Superliner Bedroom upper berths are fine. It is the uppers in the Roomettes that seem to give a sneak preview of the fine accommodation when one is proverbially put six feet under.



If you think that’s bad don’t try sleeping in a tour bus!


----------



## cocojacoby

IndyLions said:


> The VLII H room I peeked into on the Silver Meteor last week had the restroom in the bedroom - not separate. I believe that’s a change from the VLI to VLII.



It is a change and would make the bedroom less desirable for those able-bodied passengers that Amtrak could sell the room to if not being used by an ADA passenger. Seems like a dumb move. I would think most ADA passengers would like privacy when in the bathroom too. Don't understand the logic here.


----------



## cocojacoby

jis said:


> Superliner Bedroom upper berths are fine. It is the uppers in the Roomettes that seem to give a sneak preview of the fine accommodation when one is proverbially put six feet under.



Do you think an upper berth window would help?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cocojacoby said:


> It is a change and would make the bedroom less desirable for those able-bodied passengers that Amtrak could sell the room to if not being used by an ADA passenger. Seems like a dumb move. I would think most ADA passengers would like privacy when in the bathroom too. Don't understand the logic here.



The rooms are designed with the needs of disabled passengers first. That’s how it should be.

Edit- this is an Amtrak dining thread... why are we still talking about bathrooms?!


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Do you think an upper berth window would help?


No. The cars are too short to leave enough headroom to fix the core problem. Any window would be even more of a gunslit than an Amfleet I window.


----------



## Mailliw

cocojacoby said:


> It is a change and would make the bedroom less desirable for those able-bodied passengers that Amtrak could sell the room to if not being used by an ADA passenger. Seems like a dumb move. I would think most ADA passengers would like privacy when in the bathroom too. Don't understand the logic here.


The new ADA rooms are designed to make wheelchair transfers easier.


----------



## niemi24s

crescent-zephyr said:


> Edit- this is an Amtrak dining thread... why are we still talking about bathrooms?!


Why? What's at the lower end of the digestive track?


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> If you think that’s bad don’t try sleeping in a tour bus!)


I am guessing you meant to say "entertainer bus'....the ones that bands on the run () use between road gigs. They typically have 12 berths, stacked three high....


----------



## Mailliw

jis said:


> Superliner Bedroom upper berths are fine. It is the uppers in the Roomettes that seem to give a sneak preview of the fine accommodation when one is proverbially put six feet under.


How do upper berths in Bedrooms have more space than in Roomettes? Is it because of their orientation or do they just swing down lower?


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> How do upper berths in Bedrooms have more space than in Roomettes? Is it because of their orientation or do they just swing down lower?


They have slightly more headroom because the entire berth is not up against the curvature of the roof, This is in the upper level I am talking about. Other than that, in general a berth anywhere within a closet sized space feels more claustrophobic than a berth in a room double the size I suppose.


----------



## Cal

If anyone would like to know, burrito lady is still selling at El Paso. Today she came 9 minutes before the Sunset/Eagle left and the crew announced it on the train. Pretty sure she came close to selling out (apparently a lady bought 12). It was good! Nice break from flex meals. Can’t upload a picture, service is bad


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> I am guessing you meant to say "entertainer bus'....the ones that bands on the run () use between road gigs. They typically have 12 berths, stacked three high....



I meant to say tour bus... that’s what we always call them! Yes bunks are typically 3 high although once I was lucky enough to get a “condo” bunk - that’s only 2 high per side and quite luxurious! Ha.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I meant to say tour bus... that’s what we always call them! Yes bunks are typically 3 high although once I was lucky enough to get a “condo” bunk - that’s only 2 high per side and quite luxurious! Ha.


Sounds like a Navy Ship!


----------



## tim49424

I just read on Facebook that it’s official, traditional dining will return to the Texas Eagle, no date announced but likely late summer/early fall.


----------



## Sidney

I read it will be in late May to coincide with the return to daily service,unless Amtrak pushed the date back again. All the Western trains are supposed to return to traditional dining in late May.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> I read it will be in late May to coincide with the return to daily service,unless Amtrak pushed the date back again. All the Western trains are supposed to return to traditional dining in late May.



I got my information from a Facebook group dedicated to the TE and the poster is OBS. He goes on to say that all Western routes will be reinstated by the end of the year. The late May date was more of they’d like it to happen at that time but not anything official.


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> I got my information from a Facebook group dedicated to the TE and the poster is OBS. He goes on to say that all Western routes will be reinstated by the end of the year. The late May date was more of they’d like it to happen at that time but not anything official.


Arrow is showing traditional dining on all Western trains by I believe May 24th. I would think that's official enough?


----------



## Cal

See here.


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> See here. View attachment 21414



Don’t be disappointed if that doesn’t happen. Arrow can be changed and probably will. I’ll expect the late summe/early fall and be pleasantly surprised if it happens earlier.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tim49424 said:


> I got my information from a Facebook group dedicated to the TE and the poster is OBS. He goes on to say that all Western routes will be reinstated by the end of the year. The late May date was more of they’d like it to happen at that time but not anything official.


Your source said "By years end traditional dining will return to all long distance trains". I take that to mean the Eastern trains too.


----------



## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> Your source said "By years end traditional dining will return to all long distance trains". I take that to mean the Eastern trains too.



No, I clearly said Western trains in my post, There is no news on traditional dining on eastern trains nor would I expect there to be.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tim49424 said:


> No, I clearly said Western trains in my post, There is no news on traditional dining on eastern trains nor would I expect there to be.


I quoted John’s post on FB, not your post here.


----------



## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> I quoted John’s post on FB, not your post here.



He never said anything about eastern trains either. He was my source for the news.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

there is no possible way that Amtrak is not aware that flex meals are not what their passengers want. 

I’m glad to hear that Amtrak is making the change!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tim49424 said:


> He never said anything about eastern trains either. He was my source for the news,


And he didn’t specifically say it was only western trains. I said I interpreted what he said to include eastern trains. We’ll find out later if my interpretation was correct or not.


----------



## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> And he didn’t specifically say it was only western trains. I said I interpreted what he said to include eastern trains. We’ll find out later if my interpretation was correct or not.



I just reread the post and he said “all long distance trains“. I’m so used to there being traditional dining on the western trains only, that I read ”all” as “western“. My apology for that. We shall see how it all pans out as I’d love to see traditional dining out east again!


----------



## neroden

cocojacoby said:


> It is a change and would make the bedroom less desirable for those able-bodied passengers that Amtrak could sell the room to if not being used by an ADA passenger. Seems like a dumb move. I would think most ADA passengers would like privacy when in the bathroom too. Don't understand the logic here.


There was a lot of review of the Viewliner II handicapped bedroom design, particularly the bathroom, by various people with mobility impairments, including lots of people in different wheelchairs. There are specific reasons why this was better for them. I do not remember the reasons at this time, because they were highly technical, but the change apparently significantly improves the experience for some.


----------



## IndyLions

neroden said:


> There was a lot of review of the Viewliner II handicapped bedroom design, particularly the bathroom, by various people with mobility impairments, including lots of people in different wheelchairs. There are specific reasons why this was better for them. I do not remember the reasons at this time, because they were highly technical, but the change apparently significantly improves the experience for some.



And that is what matters. If the room is better for those folks - terrific.


----------



## OBS

AmtrakBlue said:


> Your source said "By years end traditional dining will return to all long distance trains". I take that to mean the Eastern trains too.


The source i have, said Mid Summer for western trains and Late Summer/fall for other and East coast trains. This will include linen and china!


----------



## tim49424

OBS said:


> The source i have, said Mid Summer for western trains and Late Summer/fall for other and East coast trains. This will include linen and china!



Linen and china? What's that?


----------



## Exvalley

Crossing my fingers... I am booked on the LSL at the end of October.


----------



## Sidney

I thought traditional dining was supposed to return May 24 to coincide with the return of daily service. So,it's being pushed back again?


----------



## niemi24s

Why not find out for yourself by doing some fake bookings and checking the _Details_?


----------



## cocojacoby

neroden said:


> There was a lot of review of the Viewliner II handicapped bedroom design, particularly the bathroom, by various people with mobility impairments, including lots of people in different wheelchairs. There are specific reasons why this was better for them. I do not remember the reasons at this time, because they were highly technical, but the change apparently significantly improves the experience for some.



Okay. I personally know one person who uses a wheelchair and he wouldn't want this but I guess there are other situations that would make this setup more desirable. I assume there is still an enclosed shower in the former toilet enclosure.

My thoughts were because for example on the Silver Meteor there are often three sleepers. Only one of course has access to the diner. I would guess that there are not three ADA passengers occupying all three rooms every night. Being equivalent to the higher-priced bedroom accommodations, these rooms increase the bedroom availability substantially if they could be sold to the general public. There is a rule that if an H room is not sold to an ADA passenger within 14 days of travel, it could be sold to a non-ADA passenger. So you go from 6 bedrooms to 9 available bedrooms on every typical Silver Meteor consist. You could potentially increase bedroom revenue 50% which is substantial.

The older design with the enclosed toilet allowed this but this new design with the toilet in the middle of the room makes these rooms more exclusive to wheeled mobility device passengers which is fine but doesn't allow the flexibility Amtrak previously had to sell these rooms. Realize that passengers with disabilities requesting an accessible room are not solely restricted to those with mobility devices and this new room arrangement may not appeal to many.

Now if there are three wheeled mobility device ADA passengers on every Silver Meteor train then that would be great and it all makes sense but I got a feeling that is not the case.

BTW - We once traveled on the SM and the woman in the H room brought her little dog into the diner and he sat next to her at the table while she ate.


----------



## Sidney

I just did on a trip I am taking on the 25th of May on the CS and it says traditional dining. So what's with this source?


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> I just did on a trip I am taking on the 25th of May on the CS and it says traditional dining. So what's with this source?



Arrow has it in the system incorrectly.


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> The source i have, said Mid Summer for western trains and Late Summer/fall for other and East coast trains. This will include linen and china!


@OBS, thanks. That is similar to what I have heard through other independent sources too. I was also told that the "mid-summer" is subject to interpretation. The policy is to do it as soon as possible, even coincidental with the daily service restoration where feasible, but recognize the realities of the logistics, and it might slip a bit in some cases. So I think there is good reason to believe that to be true, until proven otherwise of course


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Why not find out for yourself by doing some fake bookings and checking the _Details_?


Because those details are not matching what “people in the know” are reporting.


----------



## jis

I suspect some of the details will change over time. As I mentioned before, the goal is to establish traditional dining on the Western LDs in conjunction with the restoration of daily service. It is likely that for now the reservation system reflects that. It is possible that in some cases logistical difficulties might cause some short delays. Naturally such will be notified when details are actually known.

Eastern LDs are expected in Fall at some point. I would be surprised if any of them show that in the reservation system


----------



## Dustyroad

I will be on the Southwest Chief the end of September and hope I can get a traditional meal served in my roomette. That will be a win-win for me .


----------



## RRrich

Does a change to_ Traditional Dining _mean a change to menus that change daily and are different on different trains? I yearn for the good old days


----------



## Bob Dylan

RRrich said:


> Does a change to_ Traditional Dining _mean a change to menus that change daily and are different on different trains? I yearn for the good old days


Doesn't seem likely, there will most likely be a National Menu for the LD Trains with the Cardinal being the exception.( Why cant the Card have one of the New Diners? Diner Lites suck!!)


----------



## joelkfla

RRrich said:


> Does a change to_ Traditional Dining _mean a change to menus that change daily and are different on different trains? I yearn for the good old days





Bob Dylan said:


> Doesn't seem likely, there will most likely be a National Menu for the LD Trains with the Cardinal being the exception.( Why cant the Card have one of the New Diners? Diner Lites suck!!)


The web site has different menu links for different lines, but they all point to the same menu.


----------



## Cal

OBS said:


> The source i have, said Mid Summer for western trains and Late Summer/fall for other and East coast trains. This will include linen and china!


Don't get our hopes up...


----------



## IndyLions

Bob Dylan said:


> Doesn't seem likely, there will most likely be a National Menu for the LD Trains with the Cardinal being the exception.( Why cant the Card have one of the New Diners? Diner Lites suck!!)



We need one of the equipment gurus to chime in here.

Are there enough VLII Diners so the Cardinal could get one? What do they need - two?

Enquiring minds want to know!

(yes, I mispelled it on purpose)


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> We need one of the equipment gurus to chime in here.
> 
> Are there enough VLII Diners so the Cardinal could get one? What do they need - two?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know!
> 
> (yes, I mispelled it on purpose)


Yes they have enough. 25 is more than enough to populate 17 consists and leave enough shop slop and protects to go around. Heck they have enough for a daily Cardinal too.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I realize we don't yet know when traditional dining will actually return, or even what it will look or taste like, but it's just so nice to have some good news for a change. Daily trains and better meals? Yes, please! In some ways it feels like we've been waiting forever but when I look at a calendar it seems like we're making good progress all things considered. I hope the latest news about Eastern routes holds true and that coach passengers are welcomed into the dining car when dense communal seating can be handled safely.


----------



## toddinde

tim49424 said:


> I just read on Facebook that it’s official, traditional dining will return to the Texas Eagle, no date announced but likely late summer/early fall.


Everything I’ve read says the same time service returns to daily.


----------



## tim49424

toddinde said:


> Everything I’ve read says the same time service returns to daily.



Don’t believe everything you read. It’s simply not happening that way. It’s eventually going to happen but not in sync with the return to daily service.


----------



## cocojacoby

Just wondering . . . 

Where have all the chefs gone? Are they sitting home collecting unemployment just waiting to be called back so that traditional dining can restart and hit the ground running? Or have they quit Amtrak for other jobs, retired, or given up on returning. Will Amtrak need to hire and train a whole new group of chefs?

The other part of this equation is of course the servers. I hate to say it but I feel it just might be better for Amtrak to start fresh here. We have experienced such sour attitudes and unpleasantness on the diner/food service end that starting a completely different bunch of people on a truly customer-service-friendly paradigm can greatly improve things. Amtrak needs to take advantage of this house cleaning to implement a much better dining and food service atmosphere. They probably should bring in an outside company that trains and manages food personnel. Amtrak hasn't been able to solve this issue in-house.

Other companies (cruise ships, airlines, even Chick-fil-a, etc.) have the ability to make your experience with them extra special. Why can't Amtrak?


----------



## jis

Western train's OBS were furloughed and they are just to be brought back from furlough. That is why service can be restored almost immediately on them. The OBS on Eastern LDs is a different matter, since they have been gone a couple of years. They will have to be hired and trained as far as I understand it, and that is why restoration of Diner service will take place three to six months later.


----------



## TEREB

cocojacoby said:


> It is a change and would make the bedroom less desirable for those able-bodied passengers that Amtrak could sell the room to if not being used by an ADA passenger. Seems like a dumb move. I would think most ADA passengers would like privacy when in the bathroom too. Don't understand the logic here.


No door to close? Out in the open? No privacy? Think of the smell. OMG
We were once put in a HC bedroom since a family wanted 2 bedrooms together. Amtrak did ask us if we were willing to change. We saw no harm. I would not be happy if we were put into one of those rooms.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TEREB said:


> No door to close? Out in the open? No privacy? Think of the smell. OMG
> We were once put in a HC bedroom since a family wanted 2 bedrooms together. Amtrak did ask us if we were willing to change. We saw no harm. I would not be happy if we were put into one of those rooms.



The bedroom should be designed with ADA needs first. That is why it exists.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> The bedroom should be designed with ADA needs first. That is why it exists.


^^ THIS ^^


----------



## TEREB

crescent-zephyr said:


> The bedroom should be designed with ADA needs first. That is why it exists.


I agree 100%. This was assigned to us a few days before travel. So, no ADA was inconvenienced. We are always happy in our little bedroom. A family with children wanted 2 adjoining rooms. No harm.
I have seen passengers in roomettes that look like they should be in the HC room.


----------



## RovinMoses

Time to confess my delusional thought that "Flex Dining" couldn't be that bad. I was wrong!! We just took EB from SEA to CHI this week and couldn't believe that they had the same frozen meal menu for both lunch and dinner. We both thought the chicken fettuccini was ok, as well as the turkey meatballs, and appreciated the free wine. However, the chicken marsala was pretty bad. What I couldn't understand is using the same menu for two dinners and two lunches. Ended up getting and paying for some lunch from Cafe Car. Asked our attendant about cafe car vouchers and learned he had heard about that option on other trains, but they did not have that option on the EB. That is absolutely crazy. How hard can it be to offer sandwich options at lunch? Will look forward to return to traditional dining, but am somewhat skeptical of whatever new menu will be rolled out. Wondering if the Amtrak steak will be an option. We'll see.


----------



## Sidney

Hopefully in the near future Flexible dining will be history and go into the books as one of the most unpopular moves Amtrak ever made.


----------



## bms

RovinMoses said:


> Wondering if the Amtrak steak will be an option. We'll see.



Not just the steak, the full Land and Sea combo. When you see that listed at $38.00 on the diner menu, it actually makes the sleeper car seem kind of worth it!

I was also fond of the mussels for lunch on the way back east, as they're a good light option after a large dining car breakfast a couple hours earlier. Someone once asked if they were any good and I said they're pretty darn impressive considering I ordered seafood in a train in Iowa.


----------



## lordsigma

The last land and sea I had was with the crab cakes. Have they had other offerings for the “sea” portion?


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> The last land and sea I had was with the crab cakes. Have they had other offerings for the “sea” portion?


I don’t think so


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> The last land and sea I had was with the crab cakes. Have they had other offerings for the “sea” portion?


The flex menu has seaweed. 

If the western trains don't have traditional dining on May 24, I'm going to call them and demand a full refund of my Jun 2-16 trip without penalty on the grounds that they mis-sold me the tickets and are not providing what they promised. I'll rebook for later in the year when the prices are likely to be lower anyway.

When they first went to flex dining, I don't know if anyone ever demanded refund of a paid ticket based on buying before it was announced. Anyone know of it happening?


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> The flex menu has seaweed.
> 
> If the western trains don't have traditional dining on May 24, I'm going to call them and demand a full refund of my Jun 2-16 trip without penalty on the grounds that they mis-sold me the tickets and are not providing what they promised. I'll rebook for later in the year when the prices are likely to be lower anyway.


As you should!


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> I don’t think so



Actually yes. There was shrimp for a while as the original sea part. The crab cakes replaced it.


----------



## tim49424

me_little_me said:


> If the western trains don't have traditional dining on May 24, I'm going to call them and demand a full refund of my Jun 2-16 trip without penalty on the grounds that they mis-sold me the tickets and are not providing what they promised. I'll rebook for later in the year when the prices are likely to be lower anyway.



No need to demand anything. According to the home page, "Amtrak is waiving all change fees for reservations made by September 6, 2021."


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> Actually yes. There was shrimp for a while as the original sea part. The crab cakes replaced it.


Ah, okay, thanks


----------



## me_little_me

tim49424 said:


> No need to demand anything. According to the home page, "Amtrak is waiving all change fees for reservations made by September 6, 2021."


Not the same thing. You don't get your money back for the cancellization if I understand it correctly. You can just change (and pay the difference in cost) if you wish to change. Don't even know if you get a voucher for the difference but vouchers are not as good as refunds as the the cash never expires.


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> No need to demand anything. According to the home page, "Amtrak is waiving all change fees for reservations made by September 6, 2021."


I booked a trip on the CS for May 25. I am hoping traditional dining is in place,but according to some posts in this thread,it might be postponed.


----------



## tim49424

me_little_me said:


> Not the same thing. You don't get your money back for the cancellization if I understand it correctly. You can just change (and pay the difference in cost) if you wish to change. Don't even know if you get a voucher for the difference but vouchers are not as good as refunds as the the cash never expires.



Actually I had to cancel a reservation a year ago and got a full refund to my check card because I’d made my reservation by the date (I believe it was July at the time) specified on the site. To the best of my knowledge the rules have not changed.


----------



## neroden

me_little_me said:


> When they first went to flex dining, I don't know if anyone ever demanded refund of a paid ticket based on buying before it was announced. Anyone know of it happening?


Yes. Some people in fact got refunds.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Western train's OBS were furloughed and they are just to be brought back from furlough. That is why service can be restored almost immediately on them. The OBS on Eastern LDs is a different matter, since they have been gone a couple of years. They will have to be hired and trained as far as I understand it, and that is why restoration of Diner service will take place three to six months later.


Well, here's hoping it happens. I just want my steak, my eggs, my oatmeal...


----------



## me_little_me

neroden said:


> Yes. Some people in fact got refunds.


Isn't the rule in effect today different than what was in effect when they first allowed cost-free cancellations? I think you could cancel before but can't cancel now and you got a refund before but now you are allowed to "change" your trip. Can anyone verify that?


----------



## Seaboard92

cocojacoby said:


> The other part of this equation is of course the servers. I hate to say it but I feel it just might be better for Amtrak to start fresh here. We have experienced such sour attitudes and unpleasantness on the diner/food service end that starting a completely different bunch of people on a truly customer-service-friendly paradigm can greatly improve things. Amtrak needs to take advantage of this house cleaning to implement a much better dining and food service atmosphere. They probably should bring in an outside company that trains and manages food personnel. Amtrak hasn't been able to solve this issue in-house.
> 
> Other companies (cruise ships, airlines, even Chick-fil-a, etc.) have the ability to make your experience with them extra special. Why can't Amtrak?



I'm available should they want someone. I have 12 years of experience working in all OBS crafts and I'm happy to please. If asked I could also find several suitable servers from the PV industry that would all likely come over.


----------



## Barb Stout

cocojacoby said:


> Okay. I personally know one person who uses a wheelchair and he wouldn't want this but I guess there are other situations that would make this setup more desirable. I assume there is still an enclosed shower in the former toilet enclosure.
> 
> My thoughts were because for example on the Silver Meteor there are often three sleepers. Only one of course has access to the diner. I would guess that there are not three ADA passengers occupying all three rooms every night. Being equivalent to the higher-priced bedroom accommodations, these rooms increase the bedroom availability substantially if they could be sold to the general public. There is a rule that if an H room is not sold to an ADA passenger within 14 days of travel, it could be sold to a non-ADA passenger. So you go from 6 bedrooms to 9 available bedrooms on every typical Silver Meteor consist. You could potentially increase bedroom revenue 50% which is substantial.
> 
> The older design with the enclosed toilet allowed this but this new design with the toilet in the middle of the room makes these rooms more exclusive to wheeled mobility device passengers which is fine but doesn't allow the flexibility Amtrak previously had to sell these rooms. Realize that passengers with disabilities requesting an accessible room are not solely restricted to those with mobility devices and this new room arrangement may not appeal to many.
> 
> Now if there are three wheeled mobility device ADA passengers on every Silver Meteor train then that would be great and it all makes sense but I got a feeling that is not the case.
> 
> BTW - We once traveled on the SM and the woman in the H room brought her little dog into the diner and he sat next to her at the table while she ate.


I don't think the H rooms on the Superliners have a shower in the room itself, but there is a shower in the same car that is accessible. For some reason, even though we signed up and paid for a roomette, at some point prior to our trip, we got a message from Amtrak indicating that they were moving us to the H room, but our charge remained the same. Lots of room in there; one could possibly do ballroom dancing in there. But yes, the toilet provided some negative olfactory ambiance. No shower in the room though. Yes, I realize you're not talking about the superliners, but I just wanted to point out that it's not really about amenities like showers and privacy, but rather accessibility.


----------



## Seaboard92

If you want to try actual traditional dining may I recommend these dinner trains. That are being prepared to the authentic original recipes of the Seaboard Airline, Atlantic Coastline, and Southern Railway "Florida Train" cookbooks. Unlike most dinner trains that are basically banquet foods. And as an added bonus I'm the LSA on all three of those trains. And I'll be in a period uniform as well. And if you are Amtrak Human Resources looking for a new LSA or server for the diner come on down and let me audition. 






Dinner Train - Call (904) 370-3744 [email protected]


Board the dinner train and experience a chance to relive a bygone era of food service. Climb aboard the Georgia Train.



thegeorgiatrain.com


----------



## me_little_me

Barb Stout said:


> I don't think the H rooms on the Superliners have a shower in the room itself, but there is a shower in the same car that is accessible. For some reason, even though we signed up and paid for a roomette, at some point prior to our trip, we got a message from Amtrak indicating that they were moving us to the H room, but our charge remained the same. Lots of room in there; one could possibly do ballroom dancing in there. But yes, the toilet provided some negative olfactory ambiance. No shower in the room though. Yes, I realize you're not talking about the superliners, but I just wanted to point out that it's not really about amenities like showers and privacy, but rather accessibility.


On two superliner trains while in the handicapped room, the shower was, indeed, in the room with the toilet behind a curtain. However, since neither of us was that limited so as to be confined to a wheelchair, we both used the shower just outside the room. I don't remember that one being wheelchair accessible.


----------



## Barb Stout

me_little_me said:


> On two superliner trains while in the handicapped room, the shower was, indeed, in the room with the toilet behind a curtain. However, since neither of us was that limited so as to be confined to a wheelchair, we both used the shower just outside the room. I don't remember that one being wheelchair accessible.


Thanks for the clarification from someone who was actually paying attention. I don't remember seeing a shower in there, but wasn't looking for one and am not always observant. It was my first Amtrak ride in almost 50 years. I haven't yet taken a shower on the train. Perhaps I'll try it the next time I take it.


----------



## HammerJack

What are 21 & 22 doing for dining? There doesn’t seem to be a sightseer lounge... what gives? Is the dining car doing double duty for dining and cafe service? If so, that’s a real same that passengers lose out on the sightseer lounge. That really should be reflected in the price. It’s an amenity that isn’t being offered.


----------



## Cal

HammerJack said:


> What are 21 & 22 doing for dining? There doesn’t seem to be a sightseer lounge... what gives? Is the dining car doing double duty for dining and cafe service? If so, that’s a real same that passengers lose out on the sightseer lounge. That really should be reflected in the price. It’s an amenity that isn’t being offered.


Yes, they use a Cross Country Cafe, which has a lounge in addition to normal dining space.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> Yes, they use a Cross Country Cafe, which has a lounge in addition to normal dining space.


It does suck, and as of now, the SSL will NOT return to the Eagles when Daily Service returns in May!

But they dont let Coach Passengers hang out in the Lounge part of the CCC, they have to go back to their Seats with their purchases.

Depending on the Passenger loads, there are only 1 LSA to do both jobs, if the train reaches an Amtrak decided % of Load Factor ( ???), a 2nd LSA gets assigned. It really is a case of OBS doing the work of 2-3 people on this route!

The SCAs and some Coach Attendants help out , all the current staff are Senior OBS and I had really good ones on my trip to/from Dallas on the Eagle.


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> It does suck, and as of now, the SSL will NOT return to the Eagles when Daily Service returns in May!


I like the dining tables though, they feel more modern than the normal dining car


----------



## crescent-zephyr

HammerJack said:


> What are 21 & 22 doing for dining? There doesn’t seem to be a sightseer lounge... what gives? Is the dining car doing double duty for dining and cafe service? If so, that’s a real same that passengers lose out on the sightseer lounge. That really should be reflected in the price. It’s an amenity that isn’t being offered.



Yes, the CCC cars were designed so they could be the single food service car on a long distance train.


Bob Dylan said:


> Depending on the Passenger loads, there are only 1 LSA to do both jobs, if the train reaches an Amtrak decided % of Load Factor ( ???), a 2nd LSA gets assigned. It really is a case of OBS doing the work of 2-3 people on this route!



Why would they pay a 2nd LSA? They would only need to pay for a server correct?


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why would they pay a 2nd LSA? They would only need to pay for a server correct?


One LSA to manage the cafe, one to do the diner. If the train is full, I'm sure there are points where the one LSA would have a short line at the cafe and a few tables needing to be served at once.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> One LSA to manage the cafe, one to do the diner. If the train is full, I'm sure there are points where the one LSA would have a short line at the cafe and a few tables needing to be served at once.



Right but the LSA is only necessary to handle money. A server can handle everything else.

One of the few “experiments” that made sense was when they had 1 LSA and 2 servers and a Chef on the Capitol. The LSA handled the cafe counter in the CCC car and cashed out any coach / alcohol checks from the diner. 

Naturally that saved money AND made sense so Amtrak didn’t continue.... lol


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> One LSA to manage the cafe, one to do the diner. If the train is full, I'm sure there are points where the one LSA would have a short line at the cafe and a few tables needing to be served at once.


When I rode the Eagle to/from Dallas last Month, there were 2 LSAs on the mostly full Trains.

1 Worked the Cafe for Coach passengers ( who had to take their stuff back to their Seat) and Sleeper passengers wanting Cafe items, while the other heated up the Orders and served them in the Diner end of the CCC to the Sleeping Car folks.

The SCA,who was working both Sleepers( opposite ends of the Train)took the orders, and delivered Meals to those who wanted to eat in their Rooms.

The Coach attendant did the same for Coach passengers from the Cafe, and even helped out in the Sleepers!

These hard working OBS were working really Long Hours, with few Breaks, and deserved the tips they received!


----------



## HammerJack

I guess I’m more concerned with the lack of the SSL. Why is it being discontinued on the Eagles? It’s still found on other superliner trains....


----------



## Sidney

The Capitol Limited has not run with a sightseer car for almost s year. Not sure if it is returning.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sidney said:


> The Capitol Limited has not run with a sightseer car for almost s year. Not sure if it is returning.


Same with the CONO!


----------



## lordsigma

I just had my best ever Amtrak meal on the auto train. I wonder if they changed anything - the current steak with bourbon sauce is much much better than the last time I had steak on the AT about a year and a half ago.


----------



## Sidney

The Auto Train never lost traditional dining. Amtrak promotes on Facebook. An hour ago they touted how much you will love flexible dining. Within an hour almost 100 negative replies. Amtrak has posted about flex dining a few times and a barrage of negativity always follows

Does their promotion/publicity department have any idea of the unpopularity of flex dining and do they even read the overwhelmingly negative responses? Mind boggling


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> The Auto Train never lost traditional dining. Amtrak promotes on Facebook. An hour ago they touted how much you will love flexible dining. Within an hour almost 100 negative replies. Amtrak has posted about flex dining a few times and a barrage of negativity always follows
> 
> Does their promotion/publicity department have any idea of the unpopularity of flex dining and do they even read the overwhelmingly negative responses? Mind boggling


I am aware - but the food this trip seems a substantial improvement over my last AT trip in 2019 which was my main point.


----------



## ssbun

Hubby and I enjoy the flat iron steak. We both order it every time we use the Auto Train. However, our trip north last October my steak was horrible. Could not cut it at all. I even picked it up with my fingers to try and bite into it. Even that wasn't going to happen. I assume the fascia membrane was never removed making it tougher than all get out! Hubby's steak was fine! Next time I may or may not try it again...haven't decided yet!


----------



## Railspike

Amtrak must have posted that Facebook Flex-Meal topic on April Fools Day! What a joke. I've got to think they know how unpopular these meals are and are just biding their time until they can bring traditional dining back, hopefully to ALL LD trains. We have friends who know we rode Amtrak (pre-Covid and Flex-Meals) who recently took their first-ever Amtrak trip in a sleeper on the SL. They loved the trip but said they couldn't eat the food. How many first-timers will never return because of the Flex-Meals? Amtrak has missed a golden opportunity to have provided decent meals during the Pandemic. I told my friends to let Amtrak know of their experience. Maybe Amtrak will give them a voucher for a hot dog from the cafe.


----------



## Sidney

Is it possible Anderson and company grossly underestimated the public outcry of removing traditional.dining and how integral it was to the train experience? Never have I seen such a huge negative reaction to anything Amtrak has ever done.

Of course we are getting traditional dining back in the West,but if flex dining is to continue in the East,there has to be other choices. Why is it so difficult to add sandwiches,full salads and something besides a brownie for dessert?

Of course the fact the sleeper prices did not go down was also an irritant. 

If you are on a long distance train trip and paying top dollar you expect and should get decent food. Pedemic or not,Amtrak failed miserably.


----------



## jis

That is why the plan is to discontinue Flex-Meals and revert back to full service dining on all LD trains by the end of this year.

Anderson and company did not introduce Flex-Meals because they thought they will win a popularity contest with it. They did it due to a combination of being given an impossible task by the Congress and possibly some amount of unimaginativeness. But I shudder to think what they might have conjured up if they were more imaginative too. 

Actually I am almost certain that Anderson and company knew that it was going to be unpopular but they also knew that their bonuses depended on getting the Food Service P&L Center, a stupid idea that Congress came up with and the Board relentlessly worked on implementing, to a point where it was breaking even. 

This also had to do with certain quarters within Amtrak and the US Executive Branch believing that LD trains ought to be starved to non-existence and was consistent with that agenda in a sneaky but obvious way. That bit I believe still lingers on, even though its champion within Amtrak has been shunted into a sideline into the President's post, away from any executive responsibility.

Things are improving now because Congress has now seen it fit to rescind their stupid ideas, and actually become much more Amtrak friendly in the charge they have started giving Amtrak management.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Anderson was just grossly incompetent for the job as Amtrak CEO. He’s no dummy but his arrogance and not understanding Amtrak‘s true mission (written or not) probably caused more damage to Amtrak then any other CEO in Amtrak's history. If he had his way there would have been train offs and only a few long distance trains left.

I hope old adage applies here, “things have to get worse before they get better”. So far things are looking up on all fronts food included.



Sidney said:


> Is it possible Anderson and company* grossly underestimated* the public outcry of removing traditional.dining and how integral it was to the train experience? Never have I seen such a huge negative reaction to anything Amtrak has ever done.
> 
> Of course we are getting traditional dining back in the West,but if flex dining is to continue in the East,there has to be other choices. Why is it so difficult to add sandwiches,full salads and something besides a brownie for dessert?
> 
> Of course the fact the sleeper prices did not go down was also an irritant.
> 
> If you are on a long distance train trip and paying top dollar you expect and should get decent food. Pedemic or not,Amtrak failed miserably.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Anderson and company did not introduce Flex-Meals because they thought they will win a popularity contest with it. They did it due to a combination of being given an impossible task by the Congress and possibly some amount of unimaginativeness. But I shudder to think what they might have conjured up if they were more imaginative too.


POSSIBLY some amount of unimaginativeness? Are you kidding? GROSS INCOMPETENCE. Lying about why they were doing it ("The millennials want garbage to eat"). Deliberately cutting it back to the bone so as to generate complaints at the expense of their best customers. And lets not forget that the efforts of a couple of AU members showed they were purchasing them from a third party, not the original supplier. Makes one wonder whether there is more sleaze to the story.

Had they been imaginative, they could have provided double the choices so as to allow more choices on long trips, added at least one salad, given vouchers for the cafe, changed the choices and improved the quality after first getting the complaints, written a better contract, thought more about what they were providing for breakfasts, consulted some healthy food experts - or at least read a book or two from them, provided service instead of "here's your meal; eat it and shut up; bus your own table" (the attitude I got on Crescent trips), stopped the grossly wastefulness of the food, the packaging, the cost of disposal, and the lack of recycling, and ACTUALLY TAKING A LD TRAIN AND EATING THOSE MEALS THEMSELVES.

There was no real thought, no planning, no concern about their customers, nothing to justify the continued employment of the executives or the retention of the Board.

Where are the Siberian gulags when you need them? I have some nominations for transport.

Other than that, I agree with what you said.


----------



## OBS

me_little_me said:


> POSSIBLY some amount of unimaginativeness? Are you kidding? GROSS INCOMPETENCE. Lying about why they were doing it ("The millennials want garbage to eat"). Deliberately cutting it back to the bone so as to generate complaints at the expense of their best customers. And lets not forget that the efforts of a couple of AU members showed they were purchasing them from a third party, not the original supplier. Makes one wonder whether there is more sleaze to the story.
> 
> Had they been imaginative, they could have provided double the choices so as to allow more choices on long trips, added at least one salad, given vouchers for the cafe, changed the choices and improved the quality after first getting the complaints, written a better contract, thought more about what they were providing for breakfasts, consulted some healthy food experts - or at least read a book or two from them, provided service instead of "here's your meal; eat it and shut up; bus your own table" (the attitude I got on Crescent trips), stopped the grossly wastefulness of the food, the packaging, the cost of disposal, and the lack of recycling, and ACTUALLY TAKING A LD TRAIN AND EATING THOSE MEALS THEMSELVES.
> 
> There was no real thought, no planning, no concern about their customers, nothing to justify the continued employment of the executives or the retention of the Board.
> 
> Where are the Siberian gulags when you need them? I have some nominations for transport.
> 
> Other than that, I agree with what you said.


I think you summed things up very accurately!


----------



## jis

Just for the record, I was not kidding


----------



## Tlcooper93

I am years late to this thread, but in some catch-up reading, east coast LD trains are getting traditional dining back? Is this insider information, or is there some official announcement that I could let some friends know about?


----------



## Cal

Tlcooper93 said:


> I am years late to this thread, but in some catch-up reading, east coast LD trains are getting traditional dining back? Is this insider information, or is there some official announcement that I could let some friends know about?


From what I can tell, an insider said that eastern trains may be getting full service dining with linen and china late this year.


----------



## Mailliw

Sidney said:


> The Capitol Limited has not run with a sightseer car for almost s year. Not sure if it is returning.


That's a shame; this July I'm taking the Capitol Limited for my first long distance train.


----------



## jis

Isn't the absence of the Sightseer Car a COVID thing?


----------



## fdaley

Tlcooper93 said:


> I am years late to this thread, but in some catch-up reading, east coast LD trains are getting traditional dining back? Is this insider information, or is there some official announcement that I could let some friends know about?



There hasn't been any official announcement of any change to the eastern trains. I believe there was an Amtrak official who spoke to a passengers group and suggested we'd be hearing good news about food service on the eastern LD trains, perhaps later in the year.

So at a minimum, there is some awareness on the part of management that customers are really unhappy with the current level of service. That's an improvement from telling us that millennials actually prefer the flex food.


----------



## tim49424

jis said:


> Anderson and company did not introduce Flex-Meals because they thought they will win a popularity contest with it.



Maybe I’m being naive here and this is a completely stupid question but why did Amtrak constantly promote over the last year the flex meals as an upgrade and the best thing since sliced bread? Was I misinterpreting someone in their promotions?


----------



## OBS

tim49424 said:


> Maybe I’m being naive here and this is a completely stupid question but why did Amtrak constantly promote over the last year the flex meals as an upgrade and the best thing since sliced bread? Was I misinterpreting someone in their promotions?


Trying to put lipstick on a pig....


----------



## Tlcooper93

Never understood the flex. Why is there always an assumption that us millennials don't prefer nicer things. Not sure where they got the info that we want flex dining, but a lot of us grew up taking trains with real dining. The assumption that all the sudden we want a childhood staple gone is just plain wrong.


----------



## tim49424

OBS said:


> Trying to put lipstick on a pig....



That is exactly what I assumed but I was asking on the off chance I was making the wrong assumption.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> Never understood the flex. Why is there always an assumption that us millennials don't prefer nicer things. Not sure where they got the info that we want flex dining, but a lot of us grew up taking trains with real dining. The assumption that all the sudden we want a childhood staple gone is just plain wrong.


The Millennials were mere convenient pawns in a messaging game. Under different conjured up story lines it could as well have been any other convenient group. When you are basically lying you just pick whatever seems conveient at the moment, and then try your darndest to make it stick by repeated assertion. (Haven't we just seen a much more egregious case of exactly this behavior within the last six months from a former chief executive of another large organization?) Amtrak has never done a study worth the paper it is written on establishing what the Millennials want about anything. They just cooked up a random story.


----------



## me_little_me

Tlcooper93 said:


> Never understood the flex. Why is there always an assumption that us millennials don't prefer nicer things. Not sure where they got the info that we want flex dining, but a lot of us grew up taking trains with real dining. The assumption that all the sudden we want a childhood staple gone is just plain wrong.


We know you secretly admired Anderson for "honoring" you and you are probably stocking up those flex meals so you don't have to go back to your grandparents' house and eat the traditional homemade freshly cooked meals with real ingredients that you so ardently detest. I'm going to recommend Amtrak offer to have them delivered by DoorDash to you for only $49.99 as soon as they go back to something better. Or you can buy a 10 pack of them on COSTCO for only $50.

So don't feel bad about admitting it. We promise to not attack you for your admission.


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> Maybe I’m being naive here and this is a completely stupid question but why did Amtrak constantly promote over the last year the flex meals as an upgrade and the best thing since sliced bread? Was I misinterpreting someone in their promotions?


Never in my life have I seen such a positive spin on one the biggest blunders in Amtrak's history. Anderson was the worst CEO Amtrak ever had.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> Never in my life have I seen such a positive spin on one the biggest blunders in Amtrak's history. Anderson was the worst CEO Amtrak ever had.



It was just plain horrible and I’ve eaten too many of the flex meals (actually one is too many, but I’m talking about half a dozen or so) to last me several lifetimes. I need a nice flat iron steak, cooked medium rare, with a baked potato to cleanse my palate from that mess. Hopefully, soon!


----------



## Cal

Unpopular opinion here, but the flex meals are not as terrible as most people say. Are they good? No. Should they be served on Amtrak? No. But are they terrible? No.


----------



## RRrich

I thought it is/was the _ANTIFA_ you remember. the guys who beat the AXIS in WWII_ t_hat preferred FLEX - you know like K-Rations


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> Unpopular opinion here, but the flex meals are not as terrible as most people say. Are they good? No. Should they be served on Amtrak? No. But are they terrible? No.



I guess you must not be concerned about sodium levels, then?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Unpopular opinion here, but the flex meals are not as terrible as most people say. Are they good? No. Should they be served on Amtrak? No. But are they terrible? No.



The best for me is breakfast. I could have oatmeal or Cheerios, yogurt, and fruit and that resembles a normal “at home” or coffee shop breakfast for me. 

None of the lunch and dinner options resemble anything I would eat at home or order in a restaurant.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> The best for me is breakfast. I could have oatmeal or Cheerios, yogurt, and fruit and that resembles a normal “at home” or coffee shop breakfast for me.
> 
> None of the lunch and dinner options resemble anything I would eat at home or order in a restaurant.


For me, even that is bad. I generally have oatmeal but not the pre-sweetened kind like offered by Amtrak or the other sweetened cereals. I have nuts and unsweetened black coffee in my oatmeal. Once a week or so, I'll have an egg and once a fresh muffin from a local bakery where I stop on my way to volunteer. It's made without ingredients that have more than two syllables. 

I can get the black coffee on Amtrak. The egg when I last took a train was attached to cheese, chemically enhanced sausage, sodium by the carload and rubber bread with long syllable ingredients. It tasted like it sounds. The rest of the stuff, including the "blueberry muffin", starts with sugar and goes downhill from there. At least the fruit was real.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Tlcooper93 said:


> Never understood the flex. Why is there always an assumption that us millennials don't prefer nicer things. Not sure where they got the info that we want flex dining, but a lot of us grew up taking trains with real dining. The assumption that all the sudden we want a childhood staple gone is just plain wrong.


There are things that millennials seem to enjoy that I find personally unappetizing, such as sugary cocktails, sweet and sour beer, cookie dough ice cream, & egg white omelettes, but I've never seen them gravitate toward UGLY food. The idea that millennials would pay big bucks to eat reheated casserole out of a cheap plastic tray made zero sense to me.



Cal said:


> Unpopular opinion here, but the flex meals are not as terrible as most people say. Are they good? No. Should they be served on Amtrak? No. But are they terrible? No.


You didn't think it was a terrible value, in that you were paying hundreds or perhaps thousands of dollars plus injesting a ton of calories and sodium to eat reheated casserole?


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> None of the lunch and dinner options resemble anything I would eat at home or order in a restaurant.


Very little of anything served on Amtrak resembles anything that I would nromally eat at home..


----------



## Cal

Devil's Advocate said:


> You didn't think it was a terrible value, in that you were paying hundreds or perhaps thousands of dollars plus injesting a ton of calories and sodium to eat reheated casserole?


It most certainly is a terrible value, and Amtrak prices are high in general. And the point about the sodium is valid. But my point is, people are still eating them, despite whether or not they like them. And even some people on this forum have said some of them taste fine. So while they definitely aren't ideal, Amtrak could've done worse. 

Hopefully flex meals are replaced forever by the end of 2021 though.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Very little of anything served on Amtrak resembles anything that I would nromally eat at home..



Currently? Or ever? Dare I ask what you typically eat? Haha


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Anderson had no issue lying to peoples faces including US Senators with cities along the line of the SWC. We can be politically correct or we can just call it what it is. How about the premium bedding that was supposed to be on trains 2 years ago now, or new diners that were in shop to be retrofitted as lounges with convection ovens? They wanted to kill the LD lines and the true facts were not on their side hence the ”alternate facts” that were so in vogue during that time period.



tim49424 said:


> Maybe I’m being naive here and this is a completely stupid question but why did Amtrak constantly promote over the last year the flex meals as an upgrade and the best thing since sliced bread? Was I misinterpreting someone in their promotions?


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Currently? Or ever? Dare I ask what you typically eat? Haha


In general I do not eat much western food at home. 

My point was that at least I have very low expectation of getting what I really like anywhere in the generic diner foods in the US. Actually airlines on international flights manage to do a much better job in coming up with stuff that I find really likeable among food served in transportation modes.

OTOH, there is a lot of second level likeable stuff that is available and I am in general a much more tolerant of change kind of person than most, so I don't whinge about food as much as many people do.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> For me, even that is bad. I generally have oatmeal but not the pre-sweetened kind like offered by Amtrak or the other sweetened cereals.



Same. At home I use Bobs Red Mill organic extra thick oatmeal! I would prefer the “traditional dining” oatmeal over the pre-sweetened option as well but again, at least it resembles what I eat.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> Isn't the absence of the Sightseer Car a COVID thing?



Perhaps, but why, then, do the Sightseers still run on the Western trains? Covid is just as present there, I presume.


----------



## Sidney

The CONO,CL and the TE are trains sans Sightseer cars. Could be they are one night trains and scenery is not as good as the other trains. Probably a cost cutting measure,nothing to do with Covid.

Like traditional dining the cars are an important part of an Amtrak trip and I hope they are restored.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Sidney said:


> The CONO,CL and the TE are trains sans Sightseer cars. Could be they are one night trains and scenery is not as good as the other trains. Probably a cost cutting measure,nothing to do with Covid.
> 
> Like traditional dining the cars are an important part of an Amtrak trip and I hope they are restored.



On the CL scenery is great between Pittsburgh and Washington. Of course, best viewed in the longer daylight of summer, and mostly eastbound.


----------



## fdaley

Sidney said:


> The CONO,CL and the TE are trains sans Sightseer cars. Could be they are one night trains and scenery is not as good as the other trains. Probably a cost cutting measure,nothing to do with Covid.
> 
> Like traditional dining the cars are an important part of an Amtrak trip and I hope they are restored.



I have not seen a clear explanation of why the Sightseer cars were removed from these trains. From the timing, I had assumed it was a cost-cutting measure related to low passenger counts during the pandemic. But I have read several times of the current/recent Amtrak managers' dream of consolidating food service to a single car, rather than running separate diners and lounges, so I fear this could be the trial of that.

I can't fathom why someone in charge of running long-distance passenger trains wouldn't understand that when you're on a train for 20 or 30 hours, you want to find places to spend time other than your seat or room. But of course, this is the same bunch that's been telling us that flex meals are just as good -- better, really -- than traditional dining service.

When I rode the Capitol from Pittsburgh to Chicago early last year, just before the pandemic, I remember thinking that with the dining service dead, the Sightseer Lounge was the one feature that distinguished that train from others in the east, so it would probably be the next thing they'd try to eliminate.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> The CONO,CL and the TE are trains sans Sightseer cars. Could be they are one night trains and scenery is not as good as the other trains. Probably a cost cutting measure,nothing to do with Covid.
> 
> Like traditional dining the cars are an important part of an Amtrak trip and I hope they are restored.



These trains all operate with cross country cafe cars correct? That’s probably the reason, because they can drop the SSL cars on those trains during a pandemic and not affect service.


----------



## Asher

In these times with the Pandemic were all on a FLEX something. I know I am and that includes meals. 
How does the song go when Great Britain was in such despair during WW2
 They'll Be Blue Birds Over The White Cliffs Of Dover Just You Wait And See. 
That's when I'm booking. other than that, you get what you ask for.


----------



## fdaley

If it's just because of the pandemic, I'm OK with that. And even now it still seems like a bad idea to be traveling unless it's essential, given the still large outbreaks we're having in places like Michigan. But I'm expecting that we'll be freer to do things by later this year as vaccination becomes more widespread, so I'm hoping Amtrak will be able to offer something approaching normal service by then. 

And given the pre-pandemic experience with flex dining, let's just say I don't have 100 percent confidence in the current Amtrak management to make the quality of the onboard experience a priority. The announcement of restored dining service on the western trains is a good sign, and I'm glad to hear reports that improvements are under discussion for the eastern trains. But after the past three years, there's a part of me that won't really believe it till I see it.


----------



## TEREB

My son is currently going north on the Silver Star. He's in car 12. It's the new car. He promised to send pics of his meals that I'll share. I hope he doesn't forget. He said he pre ordered his meals online before his trip. My trip north won't be sometime in June.


----------



## jiml

fdaley said:


> I have not seen a clear explanation of why the Sightseer cars were removed from these trains. From the timing, I had assumed it was a cost-cutting measure related to low passenger counts during the pandemic. But I have read several times of the current/recent Amtrak managers' dream of consolidating food service to a single car, rather than running separate diners and lounges, so I fear this could be the trial of that.


The Sightseer lounge cars have made several guest appearances on Pacific Surfliners in the last few months. This may be to spell off Surfliner coach/cafes which have been seen via railcam several times on the tail of the Southwest Chief - maybe heavy maintenance in Chicago or Beech Grove?


----------



## fdaley

jiml said:


> The Sightseer lounge cars have made several guest appearances on Pacific Surfliners in the last few months. This may be to spell off Surfliner coach/cafes which have been seen via railcam several times on the tail of the Southwest Chief - maybe heavy maintenance in Chicago or Beech Grove?



Interesting. At least they are using them on a good scenic route rather than just storing them somewhere. That must be a treat for the Surfliner riders.


----------



## Bob Dylan

fdaley said:


> Interesting. At least they are using them on a good scenic route rather than just storing them somewhere. That must be a treat for the Surfliner riders.


Meanwhile The Texas Eagle doesnt have a Sightseer Lounge for its 32 Hour,4 State Trip, and according to the Crews on this Route, it wont be returning when Daily Service Resumes in May!


----------



## MilwaukeeRoadLover

Palmetto said:


> Perhaps, but why, then, do the Sightseers still run on the Western trains? Covid is just as present there, I presume.


I think what you call Sightseers are what I call some cars and they are still on LD trains like the Empire Builder. During the early days of Covid, they were off-limits along with the dining cars. But they are currently open...with social distancing. Besides...isnt the cafe car below?


----------



## Barb Stout

jiml said:


> The Sightseer lounge cars have made several guest appearances on Pacific Surfliners in the last few months. This may be to spell off Surfliner coach/cafes which have been seen via railcam several times on the tail of the Southwest Chief - maybe heavy maintenance in Chicago or Beech Grove?


What do you mean by "spell off" here?


----------



## jiml

Barb Stout said:


> What do you mean by "spell off" here?


Replace - usually for a predetermined period. My guess is the California blue Superliner cafes (and some coaches) have been going east for maintenance or overhaul, as they've been on the rear of the SWC at Galesburg, Fort Madison and La Plata in recent weeks.


----------



## Cal

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> I think what you call Sightseers are what I call some cars and they are still on LD trains like the Empire Builder. During the early days of Covid, they were off-limits along with the dining cars. But they are currently open...with social distancing. Besides...isnt the cafe car below?


That is the Sightseer Lounge, correct.

The cafe is below, but the trains that they were taken off of use a CCC (cross country lounge) which is a diner and cafe in one.So they don’t need a SL


----------



## TEREB

I finally heard from my son. There are 3 sleepers. 9210 & 9212 are new cars. There are 2 attendants taking care of 3 sleepers. In the public bathroom, there are 2 buttons. One the flush and the other to call the attendant. Of course, he hit the wrong button. 
now,
getting to the food,, he ordered the chicken which he didn’t like. No blondie offered. Dinner was the beef which he liked enough to order today for lunch. Now to the bad part. There was no food delivery. He was told to go to the dining car where one attendant was microwaving your meal. You sat at one of the tables and waited for it to be ready for you to bring it back to your roomette.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TEREB said:


> Now to the bad part. There was no food delivery. He was told to go to the dining car where one attendant was microwaving your meal. You sat at one of the tables and waited for it to be ready for you to bring it back to your roomette.



As typical of Amtrak, employees make up their own rules. He should report this to Amtrak after his trip. Room Service is ALWAYS an option and is part of the job of the SCA’s.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> As typical of Amtrak, employees make up their own rules. He should report this to Amtrak after his trip. Room Service is ALWAYS an option and is part of the job of the SCA’s.



Exactly what I was going to say. I've never been turned down for the meal delivery which is an amenity afforded sleeper car passengers, pandemic or not. This definitely should be reported and the SCA should be reprimanded.


----------



## TEREB

crescent-zephyr said:


> As typical of Amtrak, employees make up their own rules. He should report this to Amtrak after his trip. Room Service is ALWAYS an option and is part of the job of the SCA’s.


I really think/hope they were just understaffed. 2 SCA’s taking care of 3 cars. Only 1 person microwaving meals. I hope it’s better when we leave end of May, first of June. We’re too old to carry our meals 3 cars.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TEREB said:


> Only 1 person microwaving meals.



That is the standard staffing for dining Cars on the eastern trains even before covid.


----------



## PVD

Other than trans dorms, I've never been in a sleeper without an assigned attendant.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> That is the standard staffing for dining Cars on the eastern trains even before covid.


Right. That will change later in the year when traditional dining is restored on the eastern LDs


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

TEREB said:


> I really think/hope they were just understaffed. 2 SCA’s taking care of 3 cars.



Even understaffed, this doesn’t sound like the usual attitude of the Silver Service SCAs. The crews I’ve seen work well together, helping each other out, and everything —including meals delivered to rooms—gets done between them pleasantly and efficiently.

Of course, there can always be an exception, and I hope that’s what this was and not a “new normal.”


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Right. That will change later in the year when traditional dining is restored on the eastern LDs


I’m curious to see how they execute it especially as a couple of the eastern trains didn’t have full traditional dining prior to the introduction of contemporary/flexible dining. If they brought it back everywhere it would be the first time in a few years for the Star and Lake Shore to have full service dining and the first time in a long time on the CONO and Cardinal.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I’m curious to see how they execute it especially as a couple of the eastern trains didn’t have full traditional dining prior to the introduction of contemporary/flexible dining. If they brought it back everywhere it would be the first time in a few years for the Star and Lake Shore to have full service dining and the first time in a long time on the CONO and Cardinal.



They have the equipment now if they want to make it happen.


----------



## Cal

Let's just hope it comes back at all, I don't think it has been confirmed at all yet, still a rumor, right?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Let's just hope it comes back at all, I don't think it has been confirmed at all yet, still a rumor, right?



I think the western trains are somewhat confirmed. I could see the eastern trains getting a cross country cafe style hybrid (referring to the original ccc service) which would be fine for single overnight trains.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the western trains are somewhat confirmed. I could see the eastern trains getting a cross country cafe style hybrid (referring to the original ccc service) which would be fine for single overnight trains.


Mhm, but I'm just saying, don't hold your breath...


----------



## Cal

Going a bit back now... 

So according to this article, Amtrak DID put a CCC to replace the Parlour Car after it was discontinued. Not sure if this is true, but it's how I read it. 









Review: Amtrak Coast Starlight Superliner Bedroom Los Angeles To Portland - Live and Let's Fly


A detailed Amtrak Coast Starlight Bedroom review, featuring over 80 pictures from my journey from Los Angeles to Portland. Includes pictures from my bedroom, lounge car, observation car, dining car (plus menu) and details on special amenities available to sleeping car passengers.




liveandletsfly.com





Decent article too


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> Going a bit back now...
> 
> So according to this article, Amtrak DID put a CCC to replace the Parlour Car after it was discontinued. Not sure if this is true, but it's how I read it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: Amtrak Coast Starlight Superliner Bedroom Los Angeles To Portland - Live and Let's Fly
> 
> 
> A detailed Amtrak Coast Starlight Bedroom review, featuring over 80 pictures from my journey from Los Angeles to Portland. Includes pictures from my bedroom, lounge car, observation car, dining car (plus menu) and details on special amenities available to sleeping car passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liveandletsfly.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decent article too


CCCs and Superliner Lounge Cars were substituted for Parlor Cars on occasion, but I'm not aware of them being a regular part of the Consist for the Starlight, but perhaps they did for a short while after the Parlor Cars were all Parked.


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> Going a bit back now...
> 
> So according to this article, Amtrak DID put a CCC to replace the Parlour Car after it was discontinued. Not sure if this is true, but it's how I read it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: Amtrak Coast Starlight Superliner Bedroom Los Angeles To Portland - Live and Let's Fly
> 
> 
> A detailed Amtrak Coast Starlight Bedroom review, featuring over 80 pictures from my journey from Los Angeles to Portland. Includes pictures from my bedroom, lounge car, observation car, dining car (plus menu) and details on special amenities available to sleeping car passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liveandletsfly.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decent article too


It is not true.

I've ridden the Starlight a few times since the withdrawal of the PPC and before COVID. They did not run any type of Diner/Lounge ("CCC"), just a standard western Superliner consist with a diner and a Sightseer.

I've also ridden it while they still had PPC service with a Diner/Lounge as a (poor) substitute.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> I've also ridden it while they still had PPC service with a Diner/Lounge as a (poor) substitute.



Yeah the ccc wouldn’t be a great substitute for a PPC although better than nothing. 

I rode once with an SSL as a substitute and it was just as good as the ppc, the bigger windows made up for the lack of history and charm in my book. (Although I was glad that all my other trips I got a ppc! )


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yeah the ccc wouldn’t be a great substitute for a PPC although better than nothing.
> 
> I rode once with an SSL as a substitute and it was just as good as the ppc, the bigger windows made up for the lack of history and charm in my book. (Although I was glad that all my other trips I got a ppc! )


Ditto!


----------



## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> It is not true.
> 
> I've ridden the Starlight a few times since the withdrawal of the PPC and before COVID. They did not run any type of Diner/Lounge ("CCC"), just a standard western Superliner consist with a diner and a Sightseer.
> 
> I've also ridden it while they still had PPC service with a Diner/Lounge as a (poor) substitute.


Ditto.


----------



## Cal

So it seems the writer of the article got a little confused!


----------



## Jeffreymg

My brother and I are going to try again and take the Zephyr from Denver than the Coast Starlight to Portland and finally the Empire Builder to Chicago during the 1st week of August. We tried to do the same route last year but no dining car service so we cancelled that trip, hopefully this time it will work.

JeffG


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## A.H. Rudd

On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.


----------



## Bob Dylan

A.H. Rudd said:


> On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.


Hopefully this is True!


----------



## fillyjonk

A.H. Rudd said:


> On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.



Awesome. I will probably experience the box meals (traveling 5/18) going outbound but maybe by 6/4 when I return they'll be back to diners? I hope? At any rate - happy that Amtrak is still going and now that it's safer to travel again I can go visit family again


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## crescent-zephyr

A.H. Rudd said:


> On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.



Wonderful news! Also... the New Orleans based chefs are some of the best imho!


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## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also... the New Orleans based chefs are some of the best imho!



My stomach disagrees. I'm not allowed to eat that spicy stuff. I get extremely sick when I do. My only trip on the CONO, I purposely routed my trip so I'd head north from New Orleans to Chicago.


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## Dakota 400

A.H. Rudd said:


> He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner



May it be so!


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## Cal

A.H. Rudd said:


> He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.


I REALLY hope it's here before late July, as I'm taking the Cardinal in late July (first ever Eastern train) and that would be such a magical experience. 

To the others, how valid do you think this info is?


----------



## Bob Dylan

tim49424 said:


> My stomach disagrees. I'm not allowed to eat that spicy stuff. I get extremely sick when I do. My only trip on the CONO, I purposely routed my trip so I'd head north from New Orleans to Chicago.


The CONO used to have really good Food and Chefs back when LD Trains all had Regional Specialties.

Especially good were the Cajun Dishes, if you could handle Spicey Food. My favorite was one of the Deserts, a Chocolate Pecan Bourbon Pie that was Baked in Chicago!

Then the National Menus came along, and it was OK for awhile till they took the Chefs off this Route and went to Heat and Eat in the CCC, similar to how the Cardinal operated..

After the fiasco of "Fresh and Contemporary" was tried and met with near Unanimous Dissaproval, we got what we have now, Glorified TV Dinners and Tasetless Sugar and Sodium Low Quality offerings in the Diners for Sleeping Car Passengers only.


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## Cal

If all trains go to traditional dining, I hope the Cardinal FINALLY get's a proper diner


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## tim49424

Bob Dylan said:


> The CONO used to have really good Food and Chefs back when LD Trains all had Regional Specialties.
> 
> Especially good were the Cajun Dishes, if you could handle Spicey Food. My favorite was one of the Deserts, a Chocolate Pecan Bourbon Pie that was Baked in Chicago!
> 
> Then the National Menus came along, and it was OK for awhile till they took the Chefs off this Route and went to Heat and Eat in the CCC, similar to how the Cardinal operated..
> 
> After the fiasco of "Fresh and Contemporary" was tried and met with near Unanimous Dissaproval, we got what we have now, Glorified TV Dinners and Tasetless Sugar and Sodium Low Quality offerings in the Diners for Sleeping Car Passengers only.



I rode the CONO when the chefs were still there. I had my standard flat iron steak for dinner on the way north. The offerings that you describe as being the current ones sound like a bland version of the flex. They might be better for you but still pretty gross for sleepers also not getting full value of the cost of getting a room. It’ll be interesting to see the menu being offered on the CONO once the chefs are reinstated. Same is true with the Cardinal and LSL.


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## Bob Dylan

tim49424 said:


> I rode the CONO when the chefs were still there. I had my standard flat iron steak for dinner on the way north. The offerings that you describe as being the current ones sound like a bland version of the flex. They might be better for you but still pretty gross for sleepers also not getting full value of the cost of getting a room. It’ll be interesting to see the menu being offered on the CONO once the chefs are reinstated. Same is true with the Cardinal and LSL.


Agreed!


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## railiner

A.H. Rudd said:


> On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.


Good news....glad I waited to use my voucher. I was going to use the Meteor this past weekend for a quick trip to NY, but decided to fly RT instead. I'll use it when the diner's return to full service.


----------



## lordsigma

Had another superb meal on the auto train coming north last night - the pork shank with bbq sauce was delicious. If they used the current auto train menu as the basis for the “new” traditional dining elsewhere I would not complain.


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Had another superb meal on the auto train coming north last night - the pork shank with bbq sauce was delicious. If they used the current auto train menu as the basis for the “new” traditional dining elsewhere I would not complain.


How is it different than other trains?


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## lordsigma

Cal said:


> How is it different than other trains?


It’s the only train with chef prepared meals! Compared to previous traditional dining - it’s completely non a l a carte - there’s basically a few set choices with not a lot of customization and there’s no price associated with (only customization is on the steak they’ll cook it how you want it and you pick your dessert.) there’s a beef option, a pork option, a chicken option, a fish option, and a pasta option (manicotti) and a couple kids meals. They come as packaged deals with set sides.


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## jis

A.H. Rudd said:


> On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of Amtrak's long distance trains this summer. This includes the CONO, LSL, Capital Limited, Cardinal, and Crescent. Any Amtrak train that runs with a diner! Hearing this news from him was a highlight of the trip, and I'm pleased to share it here.


I would caution all that the VP in charge of Amtrak LD Services, Larry Chestler spoke at the RPA Council Meeting (I attended it by Zoom as a Council Member representing Florida) last week specifically stating that traditional dining is not returning to Eastern LD trains before late Fall. Traditional dining is returning during summer to the Western long distance trains which had traditional dining before the pandemic. 

According to what he said, the Eastern LDs will have to wait several months while they figure out exactly what to do, and in all likelihood what returns to the eastern LDs may be different from the traditional dining of yore. The specific decisions regarding them are yet to be made, and they are being worked on. So keep your expectation in check on the eastern LDs.

I guess I will leave it upto each individual as to whether they would rather trust the guy who holds the purse strings and makes the decisions about what will happen, or a Chef recently returned from furlough.


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> It’s the only train with chef prepared meals! Compared to previous traditional dining - it’s completely non a l a carte -


Although the only a la carte you got in the other diners is the choice of side and desert, right? So nothing too big.

Although I'm not sure why they can't keep that.

(Edited to make my message outside the quote)


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> I would caution all that the VP in charge of Amtrak LD Services, Larry Chestler spoke at the RPA Council Meeting (I attended it by Zoom as a Council Member representing Florida) last week specifically stating that traditional dining is not returning to Eastern LD trains before late Fall. Traditional dining is returning during summer to the Western long distance trains which had traditional dining before the pandemic.
> 
> According to what he said, the Eastern LDs will have to wait several months while they figure out exactly what to do, and in all likelihood what returns to the eastern LDs may be different from the traditional dining of yore. The specific decisions regarding them are yet to be made, and they are being worked on. So keep your expectation in check on the eastern LDs.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


>


"Well, Isnt that Special!"


----------



## me_little_me

Late May is not summer so who is lying, Chestler or Amtrak's web site which contradicts him by showing that Traditional Dining will be on trains in late May?

Hmmm!


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## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Although the only a la carte you got in the other diners is the choice of side and desert, right? So nothing too big.
> 
> Although I'm not sure why they can't keep that.
> 
> (Edited to make my message outside the quote)


There was all sorts of a la carte stuff at breakfast.


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> There was all sorts of a la carte stuff at breakfast.


Right. 

Honestly it'd be a shame if they discontinued that :/


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I guess I will leave it upto each individual as to whether they would rather trust the guy who holds the purse strings and makes the decisions about what will happen, or a Chef recently returned from furlough.



It’s 50/50. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chef knows more about actual operations than the office guy giving a public speech.


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## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s 50/50. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chef knows more about actual operations than the office guy giving a public speech.


Actual operations _that day_, especially on the route he works, sure.

The planning for several months into the future, not so much.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> Although the only a la carte you got in the other diners is the choice of side and desert, right? So nothing too big.
> 
> Although I'm not sure why they can't keep that.
> 
> (Edited to make my message outside the quote)


No, you could customize things to some extent. Like getting a burger with or without bacon or cheese. IIRC, crab cakes were on the menu as surf & turf, but I asked for them by themselves and got them.


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## tim49424

me_little_me said:


> Late May is not summer so who is lying, Chestler or Amtrak's web site which contradicts him by showing that Traditional Dining will be on trains in late May?
> 
> Hmmm!



Maybe lying is a little harsh a word to use? I’d think that someone or both parties are fed the wrong information. We’ll see for sure. Everything right now IMO is speculation until we see traditional meals being served or hear first hand actual reports. Even if these dates come from reliable sources, you know how Amtrak is....the dates announced are subject to change.


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## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Actual operations _that day_, especially on the route he works, sure.
> 
> The planning for several months into the future, not so much.



If full Diners are coming back on New Orleans based trains the New Orleans crew base is preparing for that change now. 

I would take the New Orleans based chefs word for it, but that’s just me.


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## me_little_me

I checked on Amtrak's site by starting a new reservation on the Zephyr in a room to see if it still says Traditional Dining for my trip in June. I select a room then add it to my cart then click on the cart then click on the city pair to show more information. The dropdown no longer shows the type of dining. So I go to my reservation on the site and select view/share details. This is a portion of what comes up:



This is the portion from Chicago to Grand Junction. Notice the red dot and the word Canceled below SEGMENT 1 of 1 (it is actually segment 2).

Then I tried to email it by putting in an email address and the system said "Something wrong with our System. Please try again". Same thing when I tried again and when I tried later..


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## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> I checked on Amtrak's site by starting a new reservation on the Zephyr in a room to see if it still says Traditional Dining for my trip in June. I select a room then add it to my cart then click on the cart then click on the city pair to show more information. The dropdown no longer shows the type of dining. So I go to my reservation on the site and select view/share details. This is a portion of what comes up:
> View attachment 21902
> 
> 
> This is the portion from Chicago to Grand Junction. Notice the red dot and the word Canceled below SEGMENT 1 of 1 (it is actually segment 2).
> 
> Then I tried to email it by putting in an email address and the system said "Something wrong with our System. Please try again". Same thing when I tried again and when I tried later..


System still shows May 21st.


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## Cal

Just checked on Arrow for the SWC departing LAX on June 7th. Shows traditional dining for me


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## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> I would caution all that the VP in charge of Amtrak LD Services, Larry Chestler spoke at the RPA Council Meeting (I attended it by Zoom as a Council Member representing Florida) last week specifically stating that traditional dining is not returning to Eastern LD trains before late Fall. Traditional dining is returning during summer to the Western long distance trains which had traditional dining before the pandemic.
> 
> According to what he said, the Eastern LDs will have to wait several months while they figure out exactly what to do, and in all likelihood what returns to the eastern LDs may be different from the traditional dining of yore. The specific decisions regarding them are yet to be made, and they are being worked on. So keep your expectation in check on the eastern LDs.
> 
> I guess I will leave it upto each individual as to whether they would rather trust the guy who holds the purse strings and makes the decisions about what will happen, or a Chef recently returned from furlough.



The most likely backstory is that while Amtrak may begrudgingly accept that "experiential" rail travel will continue to exist in the west, it eventually sees most overnight eastern trains being replaced by the shorter day time "corridor" type of travel. Thus they have no incentive whatsoever to improve the overnight rail experience in the east even in the short term.


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## Tlcooper93

Palmetto said:


> Perhaps, but why, then, do the Sightseers still run on the Western trains? Covid is just as present there, I presume.



Don't open Pandora's box.


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## Exvalley

jis said:


> I would caution all that the VP in charge of Amtrak LD Services, Larry Chestler spoke at the RPA Council Meeting (I attended it by Zoom as a Council Member representing Florida) last week specifically stating that traditional dining is not returning to Eastern LD trains before late Fall.



Since I have a reservation on the LSL in late October, I am hoping that Mr. Chestler is under-promising and hoping to over-perform. But let's be honest. "Over-perform" and "Amtrak" are seldom uttered in the same sentence.


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## jis

Exvalley said:


> Since I have a reservation on the LSL in late October, I am hoping that Mr. Chestler is under-promising and hoping to over-perform. But let's be honest. "Over-perform" and "Amtrak" are seldom uttered in the same sentence.


Likewise. Me too, though for me it is the Silvers and the Cardinal.


----------



## Dakota 400

me_little_me said:


> Late May is not summer so who is lying, Chestler or Amtrak's web site which contradicts him by showing that Traditional Dining will be on trains in late May?
> 
> Hmmm!



Maybe a case of the "right hand not knowing what the left hand" is doing.

But, as another poster mentioned, maybe Mr. Chestler is "underpromising" while hoping to exceed expectations. If so, that's smart PR in my opinion.


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## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> But, as another poster mentioned, maybe Mr. Chestler is "underpromising" while hoping to exceed expectations. If so, that's smart PR in my opinion.


That is quite possible for the Western trains since Amtrak also promised to restore service by the end of June, but is doing so by the end of May for them.

However, from what Mr. Chestler desribed as things that have to be completed before Viewliner trains get traditional food service restored was accurate, it seems unlikely that they will get traditional dining in any form restored before late Summer at the earlies,t even though he said late Fall.

New Orleans base will have to be upto speed for providing tradional service in the May/June timeframe at least on the Sunset Limited and maybe with a little bit of additional luck on the CONO. Anyway. I suspect the Crescent will come later since what he described that needs to happen at the Sunnyside facility is unlikely to be completed in a month or two from now.


----------



## Dakota 400

jis said:


> he described that needs to happen at the Sunnyside facility



Was he specific as to what was needed to happen?


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> Was he specific as to what was needed to happen?


No. But he said it should take several months. Also the OBS for Eastern trains’ food service were apparently not furloughed when they moved away from traditional dining. Apparently very few are still around. So they have to start from scratch with new hires and training for significant part of the necessary staff. That is the primary difference from the Western trains. The Eastern trains were permanently destaffed and downgraded, not temporarily like the Western trains.


----------



## Sidney

And a big thank you to Richard Anderson for implementing one of the true failures in Amtrak's history


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> System still shows May 21st.


That's not the issue. My question was moved to this thread involuntarily but it has nothing to do with dining (I was only explaining why I went back to Amtrak's site). Rather what does CANCELED mean on my reservation?


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> That's not the issue. My question was moved to this thread involuntarily but it has nothing to do with dining (I was only explaining why I went back to Amtrak's site). Rather what does CANCELED mean on my reservation?


I'm not sure. I would try to book it on Arrow to see if it shows up as a possible trip. And I would also call Amtrak. But others may have better advice


----------



## railiner

They were at one time planning to remove cooking equipment from the Viewliner diners to convert them to lounge cafe's....so I am wondering if any of that was done, and if so, how long would it take to restore them to full service galley's?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> They were at one time planning to remove cooking equipment from the Viewliner diners to convert them to lounge cafe's....so I am wondering if any of that was done, and if so, how long would it take to restore them to full service galley's?



Well there are still diners operating on all of the single level trains. Of course those trains aren’t running daily so maybe there wouldn’t be enough to go around.... hopefully they never began thT project.


----------



## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> They were at one time planning to remove cooking equipment from the Viewliner diners to convert them to lounge cafe's....so I am wondering if any of that was done, and if so, how long would it take to restore them to full service galley's?


Let's hope not! What a waste!


----------



## IndyLions

jis said:


> ...Apparently very few are still around. So they have to start from scratch with new hires and training for significant part of the necessary staff...



Most of my bad experiences in full service Dining have been in the East.

IF they get somebody good to do the training and install a customer first attitude (that’s a BIG IF), the need to restaff might not be all bad.

Of course, it could also be a disaster...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Most of my bad experiences in full service Dining have been in the East.



Opposite for me. By far the worst Dining Car LSA’s I’ve had were based in LA. Two different lsa’s on the starlight, and Two different lsa’s on the Chief.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Opposite for me. By far the worst Dining Car LSA’s I’ve had were based in LA. Two different lsa’s on the starlight, and Two different lsa’s on the Chief.


Really? I thought the LA crews were supposed to be the best.


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> I'm not sure. I would try to book it on Arrow to see if it shows up as a possible trip. And I would also call Amtrak. But others may have better advice


I finally got through to Amtrak. They changed my reservation to a different car and managed to totally screw it up. They also never sent me an update to indicate the changes. They had the two of us in TWO BEDROOMS on two of the trains and when the agent tried to fix it, she could not and it got messed up so she had to get technical help. Finally, she said it was fixed. So I end up getting an eticket that says I am going between HIN and CHI round trip but lists me on the individual trains correctly as HIN to CHI and CHI to Grand Junction with returns. When I asked her why the ticket clearly states HIN -> CHI with four trains listed, she could not and, of course, she cannot even see the documents she had the system send to me.

I asked to speak to a supervisor who refused to talk to me and who told the agent to tell me she was going into a meeting (10:30PM EDT) and I would have to call back another time.

Once the agent fixed the screwup, I was able to send a copy of what I thought was going to be the information in the popup that showed everything including amenities. But it did not. I guess Amtrak doesn't want that to be sent out in case someone points out evidence that they didn't get what was promised at the time they made the reservation.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Really? I thought the LA crews were supposed to be the best.



SCA’s have always been great. Many of the Parlour car LSA’s were excellent as well. I’ve had good dining car crews on LA based trains as well but certainly the worst has been from LA.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> I finally got through to Amtrak. They changed my reservation to a different car and managed to totally screw it up. They also never sent me an update to indicate the changes. They had the two of us in TWO BEDROOMS on two of the trains and when the agent tried to fix it, she could not and it got messed up so she had to get technical help. Finally, she said it was fixed. So I end up getting an eticket that says I am going between HIN and CHI round trip but lists me on the individual trains correctly as HIN to CHI and CHI to Grand Junction with returns. When I asked her why the ticket clearly states HIN -> CHI with four trains listed, she could not and, of course, she cannot even see the documents she had the system send to me.
> 
> I asked to speak to a supervisor who refused to talk to me and who told the agent to tell me she was going into a meeting (10:30PM EDT) and I would have to call back another time.
> 
> Once the agent fixed the screwup, I was able to send a copy of what I thought was going to be the information in the popup that showed everything including amenities. But it did not. I guess Amtrak doesn't want that to be sent out in case someone points out evidence that they didn't get what was promised at the time they made the reservation.


I'm sorry. Hope nothing else happens!


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> SCA’s have always been great. Many of the Parlour car LSA’s were excellent as well. I’ve had good dining car crews on LA based trains as well but certainly the worst has been from LA.


So it's the best or nothing!


----------



## railiner

me_little_me said:


> Once the agent fixed the screwup, I was able to send a copy of what I thought was going to be the information in the popup that showed everything including amenities. But it did not. I guess Amtrak doesn't want that to be sent out in case someone points out evidence that they didn't get what was promised at the time they made the reservation.


Next time, try taking a 'screen shot', and then save and print....


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Opposite for me. By far the worst Dining Car LSA’s I’ve had were based in LA. Two different lsa’s on the starlight, and Two different lsa’s on the Chief.



When I rode the SWC from Los Angeles, the Chef overcooked almost everything. Chicken breast was so dry and tough, I finally gave up and only ate about half of it. Scrambled eggs were dry and rubbery.


----------



## SteveSFL

I just made a reservation for California Zephyr for May 30. I asked the rep if normal dining will be reinstated by then and he said they aren’t saying for sure and to plan on boxed meals. 

On another note, this was a points reservation and the rep showed the points required to be 672 points more than what the website showed. He said to call AGR tomorrow to see about getting the difference back. 
If I hadn’t wanted to be able to choose my roomette, I would have just booked it online.


----------



## tim49424

SteveSTX said:


> I just made a reservation for California Zephyr for May 30. I asked the rep if normal dining will be reinstated by then and he said they aren’t saying for sure and to plan on boxed meals.



Your best bet is not to obsess over such things. Nobody knows the answer to the date of return of traditional dining on any LD train. I've heard so many different rumors, theories, guesses, news from "reliable sources" on AU that it makes my head spin. I decided to ignore it all until we get first hand accounts of it actually happening. I think I posted something similar recently but it's worth repeating again, I suppose.


----------



## tim49424

Dakota 400 said:


> When I rode the SWC from Los Angeles, the Chef overcooked almost everything. Chicken breast was so dry and tough, I finally gave up and only ate about half of it. Scrambled eggs were dry and rubbery.



I've never had bad food made by an Amtrak chef. It's always been to my liking. However, I'm a creature of habit, so I always order the same thing each time I ride. To be honest, I've not had the chicken, but my late mother had the lunchtime chicken salad once and she had the same complaint about it being dry and tough. I always get the cheese omelette and again, never had a bad one done by a chef. I don't know how they can make those rubbery and dry, but I guess rushing through things that can happen.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> Your best bet is not to obsess over such things.



This is a discussion on just such things. Discussing it is why we are here.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> This is a discussion on just such things. Discussing it is why we are here.



Yeah, I understand that. But for many it's turned into an obsession and argument.


----------



## bms

I can't wait to have the Amtrak "Land and Sea" on the California Zephyr. I'll take the train all the way to San Francisco once full dining is reinstated.


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> I can't wait to have the Amtrak "Land and Sea" on the California Zephyr. I'll take the train all the way to San Francisco once full dining is reinstated.



It was good, that’s for sure, especially when the “sea” part was six jumbo shrimp! I’ve not had it since they discontinued them though. I just get the steak.


----------



## bms

tim49424 said:


> It was good, that’s for sure, especially when the “sea” part was six jumbo shrimp! I’ve not had it since they discontinued them though. I just get the steak.



Oh I only had it when it consisted of a steak and a crab cake. That was a really superb meal and it was nice to dine with other passengers on the train, as I usually travel alone. I always ordered the Land and Sea for dinner and either the Mussels or the Angus Burger for lunch. And all of the breakfast options were good, you couldn't go wrong.

Needless to say, I can't wait to get that menu back.


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> Oh I only had it when it consisted of a steak and a crab cake. That was a really superb meal and it was nice to dine with other passengers on the train, as I usually travel alone. I always ordered the Land and Sea for dinner and either the Mussels or the Angus Burger for lunch. And all of the breakfast options were good, you couldn't go wrong.
> 
> Needless to say, I can't wait to get that menu back.



I travel alone as well and meals with others is one of the highlights of the trip, for sure. I’ve met so many interesting people. On my last trip in February 2020, the lunch menu had “pork wings“. That quickly became one of my favorites. Before that addition, I was an angus burger guy too. I get the cheese omelette for breakfast with croissant and potatoes. All really good stuff!

By the way, here’s a picture of the old land and sea w/ shrimp. I’d already eaten 4 of them (I couldn’t resist!) when I snapped the photo.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> Yeah, I understand that. But for many it's turned into an obsession and argument.



The poster you quoted was just sharing what he heard from an Amtrak agent when booking his trip. He didn’t seem to be obsessing at all.

I found his post interesting and informative to this thread.


----------



## tim49424

redacted


----------



## Cal

bms said:


> Needless to say, I can't wait to get that menu back.


Don't hold your breath. Nobody knows what traditional dining will look like when it returns


----------



## Palmetto

Cal said:


> Don't hold your breath. Nobody knows what traditional dining will look like when it returns



Pretty much what I was thinking, as well.


----------



## fdaley

On our last cross-country trip before the pandemic, in early 2019, we took the Coast Starlight, Sunset Limited and Crescent in that order. The dinner menu was identical, or nearly so, on every train, and green beans were the vegetable accompaniment to every dinner entree. On the Crescent, the green beans were actually well cooked and quite good, after being nearly raw and barely edible on the earlier trains. So a good chef can still make a difference for the better even with a highly standardized menu. Of course, that chef on the Crescent is probably one of the ones that was let go with the switch to flex-food later that year.

Perhaps I was just lucky, but all of the dining car crews I encountered in the decade or so before flex food, east and west, were at least competent and in many cases very good. Of course, the service standards and presentation on Amtrak were informal and uneven, especially when compared with VIA Rail or the private railroads of old. But my sense is that Amtrak's staffing issues were much better in recent years than in the '90s and early 2000s, when I sometimes ran into crews who were just awful.


----------



## tim49424

Palmetto said:


> Pretty much what I was thinking, as well.



Same here.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Agreed... during the 'good old days' of full service dining... that sadly became 'standardized' with exact menu throughout the system, the chefs still made a difference in how the food was cooked and presented. Example... the whipped topping on the cheese cake, fruit plate presentation at breakfast, and that delicious angus beef burger at lunch with all its yummy accoutrements. (My favorite Amtrak food bites!)


----------



## jis

I always liked the Amtrak Burger in the lunch menu and do miss it. The Amcafe Burger is a very poor substitute mainly because it is missing all the accouterments.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> On the Crescent, the green beans were actually well cooked and quite good, after being nearly raw and barely edible on the earlier trains. So a good chef can still make a difference for the better even with a highly standardized menu.



Many years ago I had a similar experience going from the Capitol to the Crescent. It was really hard to believe that the mashed potatoes on both trains started as the same instant potatoes.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> I always liked the Amtrak Burger in the lunch menu and do miss it. The Amcafe Burger is a very poor substitute mainly because it is missing all the accouterments.


I've experienced many 'levels' of perfection on that angus burger... here's where a good chef makes all the difference... cooking it just right to have that BBQ taste. Pre covid you could lather on some of that very decent guacamole which doesn't seem to be appearing on the somewhat pared down full service menu that Amtrak is saying will begin at the end of May.

We shall have to wait and see... !


----------



## Dakota 400

jis said:


> I always liked the Amtrak Burger in the lunch menu



I have enjoyed the Burger as well. But, never have liked their potato chips.


----------



## Gary Behling

Dakota 400 said:


> When I rode the SWC from Los Angeles, the Chef overcooked almost everything. Chicken breast was so dry and tough, I finally gave up and only ate about half of it. Scrambled eggs were dry and rubbery.


I would HAPPILY trade all those free meals for Internet WiFi on the long distance trains.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> I've experienced many 'levels' of perfection on that angus burger... here's where a good chef makes all the difference... cooking it just right to have that BBQ taste. Pre covid you could lather on some of that very decent guacamole which doesn't seem to be appearing on the somewhat pared down full service menu that Amtrak is saying will begin at the end of May.
> 
> We shall have to wait and see... !


I'm by no means a Vegetarian, but I used to love e ordering the Veggie Burger with Cheese for Lunch( and for awhile it was a Dinner option), we called it the " Cheater Burger".


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm by no means a Vegetarian, but I used to love e ordering the Veggie Burger with Cheese for Lunch( and for awhile it was a Dinner option), we called it the " Cheater Burger".


In my experience, the Veggie Burgers have become better and better over the years.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I used to get the veggie burger, too. Smothered it with ketchup. (Not to hide the taste—I smother lots of things with ketchup!)

I really loved the potato chips. My first LD Amtrak trip was the first time I had kettle chips, and now that’s the only potato chip I eat.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm by no means a Vegetarian, but I used to love e ordering the Veggie Burger with Cheese for Lunch( and for awhile it was a Dinner option), we called it the " Cheater Burger".



You could tell who the experienced Amtrak diners were if they ordered the veggie burger with bacon! Best lunch on the menu!


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> You could tell who the experienced Amtrak diners were if they ordered the veggie burger with bacon! Best lunch on the menu!


I dont care for Bacon, but you're correct!


----------



## fdaley

I ate and loved those veggie burgers for lunch on trains all over the country. The fresh lettuce, tomato and red onion really worked to jazz up something that otherwise was basically a pre-packaged item. 

Does anyone remember the baked half-chicken? It always had the feeling of being cooked onboard, and it did seem to vary depending on the train and the chef. The chicken breast that replaced it on more recent menus was much less good and clearly reheated from a box.


----------



## Gary Behling

fdaley said:


> I ate and loved those veggie burgers for lunch on trains all over the country. The fresh lettuce, tomato and red onion really worked to jazz up something that otherwise was basically a pre-packaged item.
> 
> Does anyone remember the baked half-chicken? It always had the feeling of being cooked onboard, and it did seem to vary depending on the train and the chef. The chicken breast that replaced it on more recent menus was much less good and clearly reheated from a box.


The ONLY thing I really miss is the Cheese cake.


----------



## nferr

Was pretty decent before they went to the standardized menu. I had thick center cut pork chops on the Lake Shore, pretty sure I had trout on the Zephyr and catfish on the Crescent. There was almost always a chef special that was really good. The standardized menu brought it down a big notch, with basically the steak being about the only thing cooked fresh on board. Of course, still way better than the flex meals lol.


----------



## tim49424

Gary Behling said:


> I would HAPPILY trade all those free meals for Internet WiFi on the long distance trains.



Wifi on LD trains is literally impossible, especially since a good deal of them go through very remote areas, primarily the Western LD trains. The Wifi signal depends on cell phone towers and they just plainly don't exist in many of those states that are served by Amtrak.


----------



## tim49424

Bob Dylan said:


> I dont care for Bacon



That explains a lot. LOL


----------



## me_little_me

railiner said:


> Next time, try taking a 'screen shot', and then save and print....


I did that. That's what I posted in my first post on this issue




__





Amtrak Dining Car service


On Monday I took the City of New Orleans from CHI to NOL. My sleeping car attendant was a New Orleans crew base Amtrak chef who just got back on the extra board after a long furlough. He informed me that traditional dining (crab cakes, steaks, French toast, etc) will be returning to ALL of...




www.amtraktrains.com





Unfortunately, my laptop has a small screen so the text was somewhat messed up.


----------



## me_little_me

tim49424 said:


> Your best bet is not to obsess over such things. Nobody knows the answer to the date of return of traditional dining on any LD train. I've heard so many different rumors, theories, guesses, news from "reliable sources" on AU that it makes my head spin. I decided to ignore it all until we get first hand accounts of it actually happening. I think I posted something similar recently but it's worth repeating again, I suppose.


I'm obsessed with it enough that if there is no traditional dining at least a week before my trip in early June, I will cancel and reschedule it for later in the year. All my hotel reservations and my car rental are cancel-able without cost. I expect and will make a big stink if they fail to provide traditional dining and refuse a refund to my credit card.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> Does anyone remember the baked half-chicken? It always had the feeling of being cooked onboard, and it did seem to vary depending on the train and the chef. The chicken breast that replaced it on more recent menus was much less good and clearly reheated from a box.



Yes I remember! It was much better than the chicken breast and I agree it tasted like it was cooked on board.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Gary Behling said:


> I would HAPPILY trade all those free meals for Internet WiFi on the long distance trains.



I’m always surprised people still want this. I’ve been tethering my laptop to my iPhone for years now. It’s way more reliable than any public WiFi. 

By the way the Pacific Parlour Car had WiFi available so it certainly can be done.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> By the way the Pacific Parlour Car had WiFi available so it certainly can be done.



Did the PPC go through huge remote areas like North Dakota, Montana and other large barren areas without cell towers?


----------



## zephyr17

tim49424 said:


> Did the PPC go through huge remote areas like North Dakota, Montana and other large barren areas without cell towers?


Yes, it went through some very remote areas of the coast around Point Conception and Point Arguello around Vandenberg AFB.

And the wifi had no internet connectivity there because of the lack of cell towers there, and very unlikely there will be any.

It used to be my phone had no signal on much of the Empire Builder, except for a few places, like around Havre. Now I have bars on most (though not all) of the route. This was T Mobile before the Sprint merger, which wasn't known for great coverage outside urban areas and major highways. So the great blank spaces of cell service in the West away from Interstates appear to be being filled in.


----------



## tim49424

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, it went through some very remote areas of the coast around Point Conception and Point Arguello around Vandenberg AFB.
> 
> And the wifi had no internet connectivity there because of the lack of cell towers there, and very unlikely there will be any.
> 
> It used to be my phone had no signal on much of the Empire Builder, except for a few places, like around Havre. Now I have bars on most (though not all) of the route. This was T Mobile before the Sprint merger, which wasn't known for great coverage outside urban areas and major highways. So the great blank spaces of cell service in the West away from Interstates appear to be being filled in.



My point exactly. Thanks for filling me in as I've never been on the Coast Starlight south of Sacramento. 

On the Empire Builder, I can't get cell signal between MSP and Portland/Seattle unless we're approaching, stopped or departing a station stop. The only exception to that rule is there is no cell service in Glacier. I have a 4G iphone 8 powered by Tracfone (Verizon). I even have problems in Wisconsin, between the Dells and LaCrosse. My signal drops off just after crossing the river into Minnesota. That goes to show that Wifi is impossible to maintain in areas like that.


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> Did the PPC go through huge remote areas like North Dakota, Montana and other large barren areas without cell towers?


Yep. I was actually surprised at the lack of cell coverage I had when I was on it during October.


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> Yep. I was actually surprised at the lack of cell coverage I had when I was on it during October.



It's just common sense. You get in a remote area, you're not going to have cell service. This is why the Western LD trains don't offer Wifi and the Eastern ones are wired for it. Most of the urban sprawl is going on in the east and cell towers and coverage are most everywhere and makes it possible to do Wifi.....yes there are areas where you won't have service, but they are far and few between compared to the west.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

WiFi on on the Western LDN is quite possible via commercial multiplexers with external antennas and signal boosters. The new generation of broadband satellite services would be even better. It would not be cheap or included with your ticket but it's quite solvable from a technical standpoint. Amtrak rolling stock mimics a Faraday cage so don't let mobile phone bars inform you on what is actually possible with a fully researched and properly planned solution.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> Did the PPC go through huge remote areas like North Dakota, Montana and other large barren areas without cell towers?



Yes. The WiFi didn’t work there. 



tim49424 said:


> My point exactly. Thanks for filling me in as I've never been on the Coast Starlight south of Sacramento.
> 
> On the Empire Builder, I can't get cell signal between MSP and Portland/Seattle unless we're approaching, stopped or departing a station stop. The only exception to that rule is there is no cell service in Glacier. I have a 4G iphone 8 powered by Tracfone (Verizon). I even have problems in Wisconsin, between the Dells and LaCrosse. My signal drops off just after crossing the river into Minnesota. That goes to show that Wifi is impossible to maintain in areas like that.



You need to get ATT - I don’t remember having any issues on the Builder and I’ve traveled both the Portland and Seattle sections.


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> Did the PPC go through huge remote areas like North Dakota, Montana and other large barren areas without cell towers?


The PPC was only on the Coast Starlight. You were thinking of the Empire Builder


----------



## jiml

The railways certainly once had the ability to provide connectivity of some sort via the network of cables running parallel to the tracks. Don't forget Sprint started as part of Southern Pacific and technology has only improved since then.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> The PPC was only on the Coast Starlight. You were thinking of the Empire Builder



No. I was asking if the PPC went through remote areas, using examples of Montana and North Dakota. I’ve ridden the Coast Starlight before and am well aware of that fact. I didn’t get the two confused.


----------



## railiner

Much costlier, but available anywhere are satellite links, where cell towers are not reachable. Except for places like tunnels or deep canyons.
Cruise ships employ these, but they have limited bandwidth, and as said, are costly...


----------



## tim49424

railiner said:


> Much costlier, but available anywhere are satellite links, where cell towers are not reachable. Except for places like tunnels or deep canyons.
> Cruise ships employ these, but they have limited bandwidth, and as said, are costly...



Being that it's costly, it's probably not worth Amtrak's while to explore the possibility.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> You need to get ATT - I don’t remember having any issues on the Builder and I’ve traveled both the Portland and Seattle sections.



Are you going to pay the extra costs for me? 

But seriously......you can't be telling me you actually had service in Glacier, let alone remote areas to the east and west of the park. I've not known many to have such luck......and yes, I've traveled both sections many times as well.


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> Are you going to pay the extra costs for me?
> 
> But seriously......you can't be telling me you actually had service in Glacier, let alone remote areas to the east and west of the park. I've not known many to have such luck......and yes, I've traveled both sections many times as well.


I have ATT and I went on the Portland section in October. Service, IIRC, was spotty throughout Glacier but I did have a little in some parts. I think it was on and off throughout most of the second day.


----------



## jis

In general if you are close to a major highway or in a town even in an otherwise remote area, you are more likely to have reception than elsewhere in the area.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> I have ATT and I went on the Portland section in October. Service, IIRC, was spotty throughout Glacier but I did have a little in some parts. I think it was on and off throughout most of the second day.


I'm by no means a techie, but lots of people that know about such things have told me that 
Over all, Verizon has the best coverage out in the Big Nowheres of the West.

I've had Sprint for about 15 years( now part of T-Mobile, and I can switch over by getting a free SIM for my phone) and I agree that their coverage out in the sticks is poor to non-existant!( just took a Trip on the Eagle/Sunset to Alpine).

Based on my expierience with AT&T when I had a Land-Line and their Cable and Internet, Never again! YMMV


----------



## tim49424

Coverage isn't a major issue to me, I don't really care if I have it or not, to be honest. I'm just sharing my experiences with it, regarding wifi and why it's not provided on LD routes out west. I usually download a bunch of videos to my ipad and watch them in the areas I don't have coverage on my cell phone and I'm bored with the scenery in those remote areas. In Glacier, I put everything away and enjoy watching everything outside my window. Same is true on any other route.


----------



## jis

When traveling by train I usually don't need to continue feeding my electronic device addictions. The sounds and views are adequate entertainment for me. The only use of cell phone is to text message to organize dinner get together and such ( a slight tip of the hat to the original subject of this thread ), and access amtrak,com for train status info. Occasionally I even look at GPS maps, which does not require wireless access. I use GPS Apps that allow you to cache maps.


----------



## tim49424

jis said:


> When traveling by train I usually don;t need to continue feeding my electronic device addictions. The sounds and views are adequate entertainment for me. The only use of cell phone is to text message to organize dinner get together and such ( a slight tip of the hat to the original subject of this thread ), and access amtrak,com for train status info. Occasionally I even look at GPS maps, which does not require wireless access. I use GPS Apps that allow you to cache maps.



This is ultimately what I'd like to work back towards. The only time I really achieve this goal is when I'm in a particularly scenic part of the route I'm traveling or when I'm at a meal. I usually shut off my electronic devices to enjoy the company of my table mates. The only exception to that rule is the rare times I snap a photo of my meal.


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> I've had Sprint for about 15 years( now part of T-Mobile, and I can switch over by getting a free SIM for my phone) and I agree that their coverage out in the sticks is poor to non-existant!( just took a Trip on the Eagle/Sunset to Alpine).


When I was on the Sunset about a month ago I did not have a lot of cell service on the final day! It finally began to become more steady after El Paso. However I believe that's because by then we paralleled the 10


----------



## jis

tim49424 said:


> This is ultimately what I'd like to work back towards. The only time I really achieve this goal is when I'm in a particularly scenic part of the route I'm traveling or when I'm at a meal. I usually shut off my electronic devices to enjoy the company of my table mates. The only exception to that rule is the rare times I snap a photo of my meal.


I also tend to do a lot of reading when nothing else is visible e.g. at night. But that too does not require any network access since I have the material already at hand.


----------



## Dakota 400

fdaley said:


> Does anyone remember the baked half-chicken?



That is the chicken that I mentioned on a previous post that the Chef on the SWC over-cooked.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> You need to get ATT - I don’t remember having any issues on the Builder and I’ve traveled both the Portland and Seattle sections.


I believe a lot of variation comes with the individual phone, not just the carrier. Over the years, as I've upgraded my phone, sometimes reception improves, and sometimes it worsens, from one phone to the next. And it's not just the model & price; IMHO any phone can have poor assembly or marginal chip issues.


----------



## fdaley

Dakota 400 said:


> That is the chicken that I mentioned on a previous post that the Chef on the SWC over-cooked.



Oh, too bad. I suppose more food preparation on board means more opportunity for a lousy chef to mess things up. But it often was very good -- much better than the reheat-and-plate stuff -- in the right hands.


----------



## bms

tim49424 said:


> I travel alone as well and meals with others is one of the highlights of the trip, for sure. I’ve met so many interesting people. On my last trip in February 2020, the lunch menu had “pork wings“. That quickly became one of my favorites. Before that addition, I was an angus burger guy too. I get the cheese omelette for breakfast with croissant and potatoes. All really good stuff!
> 
> By the way, here’s a picture of the old land and sea w/ shrimp. I’d already eaten 4 of them (I couldn’t resist!) when I snapped the photo.
> 
> View attachment 21954



That's the smallest Amtrak Steak I've ever seen, but the picture still looks delicious!


----------



## bms

Gary Behling said:


> I would HAPPILY trade all those free meals for Internet WiFi on the long distance trains.



You need to get a Hotspot plan with your phone provider - then you'll have internet everywhere your phone has it! Only cost me $10 a month


----------



## bms

tim49424 said:


> It's just common sense. You get in a remote area, you're not going to have cell service. This is why the Western LD trains don't offer Wifi and the Eastern ones are wired for it. Most of the urban sprawl is going on in the east and cell towers and coverage are most everywhere and makes it possible to do Wifi.....yes there are areas where you won't have service, but they are far and few between compared to the west.



My favorite part of any Western trip is the parts without cell service - a few hour window where no one could rely on me to solve their problems


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> That's the smallest Amtrak Steak I've ever seen, but the picture still looks delicious!



It was not really all that small to be honest but I posted that pic for you to see the shrimp…..or what was left of it. Sadly, I only was able to have it on two trips before they replaced it with the crab cakes.


----------



## bms

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m always surprised people still want this. I’ve been tethering my laptop to my iPhone for years now. It’s way more reliable than any public WiFi.
> 
> By the way the Pacific Parlour Car had WiFi available so it certainly can be done.



yeah, it seems like very few people do hotspot or tethering. People who are relatively affluent normally have the capabilities, but just don't know that it's possible.


----------



## bms

tim49424 said:


> It was not really all that small to be honest but I posted that pic for you to see the shrimp…..or what was left of it. Sadly, I only was able to have it on two trips before they replaced it with the crab cakes.



It still got me hungry! I actually don't think I ever had a bad meal in an Amtrak Dining Car. And with the resumption of daily service, I'm thinking I need to work my butt off 60 hours a week so that I can afford next summer's vacations!


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> It still got me hungry! I actually don't think I ever had a bad meal in an Amtrak Dining Car. And with the resumption of daily service, I'm thinking I need to work my butt off 60 hours a week so that I can afford next summer's vacations!



Being that I’m fully vaccinated, I’m going to play with dates and places for my first trip since February of last year. I have a dear friend who is a conductor on the Empire Builder that’s retiring later this year and I want at least one more time to travel with him. I likely will head to Seattle and back, possibly as early as mid July. I’m hoping that traditional dining has returned by then.


----------



## Cal

bms said:


> My favorite part of any Western trip is the parts without cell service - a few hour window where no one could rely on me to solve their problems


Agreed. Relaxing in the SSL while seeing the country roll past you... nothing better! The train has (or nearly has) rocked me to sleep in the SSL multiple times


----------



## tim49424

bms said:


> My favorite part of any Western trip is the parts without cell service - a few hour window where no one could rely on me to solve their problems



I try to sleep in Western North Dakota and Eastern Montana because it’s so remote and there’s not really much to see except the foothills, which don’t interest me much. I’m not usually successful because I don’t sleep well sitting up.


----------



## Palmetto

tim49424 said:


> I try to sleep in Western North Dakota and Eastern Montana because it’s so remote and there’s not really much to see except the foothills, which don’t interest me much. I’m not usually successful because I don’t sleep well sitting up.



Which brings up a question: does the SCA get ticked if a passenger asks for the bed to be lowered during the day in order to take a nap. [My impression is, though, that it's not that difficult to do oneself.]


----------



## SteveSFL

tim49424 said:


> ....I likely will head to Seattle and back, possibly as early as mid July. I’m hoping that traditional dining has returned by then.



And to quote your reply to my post hoping traditional dining would be back for my trip:

“Your best bet is not to obsess over such things. Nobody knows the answer to the date of return of traditional dining on any LD train. I've heard so many different rumors, theories, guesses, news from "reliable sources" on AU that it makes my head spin. I decided to ignore it all until we get first hand accounts of it actually happening.”


----------



## railiner

SteveSTX said:


> And to quote your reply to my post hoping traditional dining would be back for my trip:
> 
> “Your best bet is not to obsess over such things. Nobody knows the answer to the date of return of traditional dining on any LD train. I've heard so many different rumors, theories, guesses, news from "reliable sources" on AU that it makes my head spin. I decided to ignore it all until we get first hand accounts of it actually happening.”


To quote myself: 
"That's not the AU way"....


----------



## tricia

bms said:


> My favorite part of any Western trip is the parts without cell service - a few hour window where no one could rely on me to solve their problems



When I'm traveling on Amtrak, I stretch the truth a bit and let people know that phone/internet can't be relied upon. I promise to check voice and emails once a day, and consider myself off the hook. Lack of cell/internet service is a much-loved feature of Amtrak as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## tim49424

Palmetto said:


> Which brings up a question: does the SCA get ticked if a passenger asks for the bed to be lowered during the day in order to take a nap. [My impression is, though, that it's not that difficult to do oneself.]



Frankly, I've never asked for mine to be turned down and I've made over 15 LD trips. I don't know why I don't, especially on the Empire Builder, because I know the route I've ridden the most and I know where the scenery gets boring to me.


----------



## Cal

Palmetto said:


> Which brings up a question: does the SCA get ticked if a passenger asks for the bed to be lowered during the day in order to take a nap. [My impression is, though, that it's not that difficult to do oneself.]


I would think it depends on the SCA.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

tim49424 said:


> I try to sleep in Western North Dakota and Eastern Montana because it’s so remote and there’s not really much to see except the foothills, which don’t interest me much.



I took the EB to/from the Portland Gathering.

I live in the most densely populated state in the country, and for years I had thought how nice it must be to get away from lots of people and was looking forward to that stretch of fairly empty country.

It was so empty and different from what I’m used to that I actually found it a bit unnerving!


----------



## tim49424

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It was so empty and different from what I’m used to that I actually found it a bit unnerving!



It's not unnerving to me.....it just makes my eyes glaze over. It just seems to go on forever. But as always, there's something down the line to look forward to. I'm not sure how people can live in that vast nothingness, but they do and actually enjoy it. I like solitude, but I also like to have the option to not be so isolated.


----------



## Sidney

Cal said:


> I would think it depends on the SCA.


On some trips I leave the bed down all day. Easier for naps.


----------



## Shortline

tim49424 said:


> Being that I’m fully vaccinated, I’m going to play with dates and places for my first trip since February of last year. I have a dear friend who is a conductor on the Empire Builder that’s retiring later this year and I want at least one more time to travel with him. I likely will head to Seattle and back, possibly as early as mid July. I’m hoping that traditional dining has returned by then.


I hope so-I just booked SEA-CHI in June, and it shows on the website, it has Flex Dining until May 21, then Traditional Dining beginning May 22......we'll see.


----------



## Cal

Shortline said:


> I hope so-I just booked SEA-CHI in June, and it shows on the website, it has Flex Dining until May 21, then Traditional Dining beginning May 22......we'll see.


Make sure to let us know!


----------



## me_little_me

bms said:


> My favorite part of any Western trip is the parts without cell service - a few hour window where no one could rely on me to solve their problems


Hah! Nobody relies on me for anything 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Why? Because I'm shiftless and lazy and don't do anything. An hour on one day? Peanuts! You should try my method.


----------



## cocojacoby

From Amtrak's Five Year Plan:

_*Build for the Future Amtrak customers traveling on Long Distance routes will notice a number of new changes to their experience in FY 2021. This begins with onboard dining. On routes in the west, traditional dining will be reimagined and reintroduced for both private room and coach customers. On routes in the east, menus for flexible dining and the café will be refreshed*_

_*. . . we are soliciting a vendor who can design modifications to our new Viewliner II dining cars to enable them to provide both Flexible Dining service and café/lounge service, which currently requires two separate cars. In addition to cost savings, providing food service in a modern car configured to accommodate our current food service model would improve customer service.*_

I love the way Amtrak proudly states everything they downgrade is an "improvement"



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/Amtrak-Service-Line-Asset-Line-Plans-FY21-26.pdf


----------



## me_little_me

Uh! Oh! More Amtrak "improvements" coming. Lord, save us from Amtrak improvements.


----------



## Sidney

an "improvement" was made in June 2018 with the introduction of flexible dining on the LS and CL with expansion to all the Eastern trains over a year later. Possibly the most unpopular and dismal "improvement" Amtrak ever made.


----------



## jis

This taken together with the CRS document that I posted elsewhere does not bode well for the future of Long Distance trains yet. I think they are still on a path to getting eased out of existence eventually.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> This taken together with the CRS document that I posted elsewhere does not bode well for the future of Long Distance trains yet. I think they are still on a path to getting eased out of existence eventually.


And the word "reimagined" doesnt bode well for Diner customers.

Also, turning the Viewliner Diners into CCCs doesnt seem like the best thought out idea, see the Cardinal with its Diner Lite where the Food Service Car serves as both the Diner and Cafe/ Lounge.( and dropping the Sightseer Lounges off the Eagle,Cono and Cap and moving the Cafe into the CCC sucks too!)

On the other hand it does say that Coach Passengers will be able to eat in the Diners on the Western Trains, but no.memtion of the Eastern Traind which will be " reimagining" their Flex Meals!.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> On the other hand it does say that Coach Passengers will be able to eat in the Diners on the Western Trains, but no.memtion of the Eastern Traind which will be " reimagining" their Flex Meals!.


Well if the CCC-fied Diner is the only food service car in the train, it kinda follows that Coach passengers will be able to get to it. It would be sight to behold how they will feed a full Silver Meteor out of a single var though. I think there is a certain level of fantasy involved in all this, and the program won;t survive in this shape for more than a year or two of fantasizing - not the first time such has happened at the relatively incompetent outfit like Amtrak, one might add.

It also implies that the Amfleet II replacement program will contain no Cafe cars, sort of.


----------



## cocojacoby

I just hope they don't badly butcher the Viewliner diners and keep all the pieces so they can put them all back together when saner minds take over.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> I just hope they don't badly butcher the Viewliner diners and keep all the pieces so they can put them all back together when saner minds take over.


I think what they will do is add a service counter where there is a blank wall by the kitchen now, and then eventually act flabbergasted when crowd management becomes a hopeless problem on the corridor.


----------



## Bob Dylan

cocojacoby said:


> I just hope they don't badly butcher the Viewliner diners and keep all the pieces so they can put them all back together when saner minds take over.


And quit using the New Viewliner cars for axle count cars, or Yard Queens, and put them to the use they were built for( Sleepers,Diners,Bag Cars,Bag-Dorms)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

So how much money are they paying these consulting firms and design companies so they can “save money” by giving customers a product that they don’t want?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> And quit using the New Viewliner cars for axle count cars, or Yard Queens, and put them to the use they were built for( Sleepers,Diners,Bag Cars,Bag-Dorms)



That’s what really makes my blood boil. Congressmen fight about Amtrak serving paying customers decent food (customers paying up to $2,000 for a room!) but don’t say a word when Amtrak used brand new million dollar cars for axle count.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tim49424 said:


> It's not unnerving to me.....it just makes my eyes glaze over. It just seems to go on forever. But as always, there's something down the line to look forward to. I'm not sure how people can live in that vast nothingness, but they do and actually enjoy it. I like solitude, but I also like to have the option to not be so isolated.


Part of the allure of the EB are those boundless spaces... especially to the east of the big divide. To witness the drama of the approaching mountains is truly 'Only on a Train!'


cocojacoby said:


> From Amtrak's Five Year Plan:
> 
> _*Build for the Future Amtrak customers traveling on Long Distance routes will notice a number of new changes to their experience in FY 2021. This begins with onboard dining. On routes in the west, traditional dining will be reimagined and reintroduced for both private room and coach customers. On routes in the east, menus for flexible dining and the café will be refreshed
> 
> . . . we are soliciting a vendor who can design modifications to our new Viewliner II dining cars to enable them to provide both Flexible Dining service and café/lounge service, which currently requires two separate cars. In addition to cost savings, providing food service in a modern car configured to accommodate our current food service model would improve customer service.*_
> 
> I love the way Amtrak proudly states everything they downgrade is an "improvement"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/Amtrak-Service-Line-Asset-Line-Plans-FY21-26.pdf


Ooooooh my! Here we go again... frills and all... what deception! Use of 'fuzzy' descriptor words such as "reimagined and reintroduced' and 'refreshed' are a hint of what's to come... a trend that has been long and constant... and steadily downward. As they say in Missouri... the 'Show Me' state... show me!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> And quit using the New Viewliner cars for axle count cars, or Yard Queens, and put them to the use they were built for( Sleepers,Diners,Bag Cars,Bag-Dorms)


C'mon Amtrak... speak in plain language to address the basic issues... admit you have old cars with deteriorating systems... downgraded food service that has been a nemesis to all... a need for more frequency, more routes, and travel quality worthy of the American people!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> "reimagined and reintroduced' and 'refreshed'



Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

How many versions of Flexicon Meals have we had already?

1.0 - Cold Boxes
2.0 - Hot Cold Mix
2.5 - Refreshed Mix

If Flexicon 3.0 is "reimagined" to be a pre-pandemic version of Acela First Class meals then maybe it's not so bad. If it's just another reheated casserole refresh then I fail to see the improvement. Nothing in version 2.5 appeals to me and the quality looks like it should be included free with every coach fare rather than an exclusive perk for sleepers.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


Exactly... if they are talking about something better than this... show it!

Meanwhile... in their wordy Amtrak-Service-Line-Asset-Line-Plans-FY21-26, they state... on page 76,

"At the start of FY 2020, an updated food service for customers in private rooms was launched on several single night trains—targeting improved flexibility and customer satisfaction while reducing food and beverage operating costs. Additionally, café menus have been enhanced and standardized to improve offerings, increase choice, generate additional revenue, simplify processes and reduce operating costs. The service line will also benefit from the roll out of a food and beverage point-of-sale system (POS) with improved features."

Ok... so what does this actually mean? From what I can gather they are 'replacing' the flex flop concept with 'reimagined dining.' Sounds like the same kind of drumroll they did when they introduced flex meals to 'meet the needs and desires of the millennials...' which as we well know, 'they don't like 'em either!'


----------



## Sidney

With the exception of the Coast Starlight,the Sighteer cars are gone from the one night trains. Why? Was the pandemic the excuse?


----------



## me_little_me

Amtrak announces Traditional Meals.

Amtrak, today, announced that the so-called flex meals have become such a tradition throughout the country that they are now considered "Traditional Meals" and will be served as such on all long distance trains. Moreover, since the famous, highly praised, declicious, freshly made brownies and blondies are so loved by passengers, they will now be used forever as the sole dessert for all Amtrak meals as well as being the sole snack sold in the Amtrak cafes from on. Using an advance on the proposed stimulus money, Amtrak is requesting bids for 1 billion flex meals and 10 billion brownies and blondies and will keep them stored in their Indiana Beech Grove facility until used to insure that they are available when needed until the new railcars are procured and eventually obsoleted.

When asked how can the meals and desserts remain fresh for up to potentially 40 years, Amtrak responded that with all the salt, sugar and preservatives, these items should easily last a century.


----------



## Mailliw

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


Eat recycled food; it's good for Amtrak and OK for you!


----------



## railiner

20th Century Rider said:


> Ooooooh my! Here we go again... frills and all... what deception! Use of 'fuzzy' descriptor words such as "reimagined and reintroduced' and 'refreshed' are a hint of what's to come... a trend that has been long and constant... and steadily downward. As they say in Missouri... the 'Show Me' state... show me!


Agreed! Amtrak must have a whole stable of "spin doctor's" on their staff to come up these description's.....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak announces Traditional Meals.
> 
> Amtrak, today, announced that the so-called flex meals have become such a tradition throughout the country that they are now considered "Traditional Meals" and will be served as such on all long distance trains. Moreover, since the famous, highly praised, declicious, freshly made brownies and blondies are so loved by passengers, they will now be used forever as the sole dessert for all Amtrak meals as well as being the sole snack sold in the Amtrak cafes from on. Using an advance on the proposed stimulus money, Amtrak is requesting bids for 1 billion flex meals and 10 billion brownies and blondies and will keep them stored in their Indiana Beech Grove facility until used to insure that they are available when needed until the new railcars are procured and eventually obsoleted.
> 
> When asked how can the meals and desserts remain fresh for up to potentially 40 years, Amtrak responded that with all the salt, sugar and preservatives, these items should easily last a century.


The really big take is this... it looks like cynicism is becoming a reality at Amtrak.

Like so many other AU'ers, I am really disappointed at such management style... and the relentlessly aweful food ideas.

Does anyone really know what's going on??? 

But wait! May 21 is just around the corner. The big reveal?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

railiner said:


> Agreed! Amtrak must have a whole stable of "spin doctor's" on their staff to come up these description's.....


Spin doctors... as in cost cutting experts!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> With the exception of the Coast Starlight,the Sighteer cars are gone from the one night trains. Why? Was the pandemic the excuse?


Any excuse will do!


----------



## me_little_me

I sent a message to Amtrak to be assured that there would be traditional dining on my trip. They assured me there would be. The reply was signed by:




> Geneva S.
> Amtrak Center of Excellence



Center of Excellence? Is that hubris or ḥuṣpāh?

Or is it that Amtrak found all their best corporate people and put them in one closet (how much space does it take for two people to fit?) and Geneva is one of the two?

Well, Geneva, I hope you are right but based on Amtrak's claims of how wonderful their flex food was and is, I'll only believe it when I see it and will still not believe it will stick around long after.


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


That photo is the essence of flexible dining. Amtrak should be ashamed of foisting that crap on sleeper passengers.


crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


That photo is the essence of flex dining. Amtrak should be embarrassed foisting that crap on sleeper passengers.


----------



## Cal

cocojacoby said:


> From Amtrak's Five Year Plan:
> 
> _*Build for the Future Amtrak customers traveling on Long Distance routes will notice a number of new changes to their experience in FY 2021. This begins with onboard dining. On routes in the west, traditional dining will be reimagined and reintroduced for both private room and coach customers. On routes in the east, menus for flexible dining and the café will be refreshed
> 
> . . . we are soliciting a vendor who can design modifications to our new Viewliner II dining cars to enable them to provide both Flexible Dining service and café/lounge service, which currently requires two separate cars. In addition to cost savings, providing food service in a modern car configured to accommodate our current food service model would improve customer service.*_
> 
> I love the way Amtrak proudly states everything they downgrade is an "improvement"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/Amtrak-Service-Line-Asset-Line-Plans-FY21-26.pdf


Sigh, I am nervous for the future.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

What I don’t understand is what model are they looking at to base this off of? 

Most hotels offer nice restaurants. Hilton Garden Inn’s offer cooked to order breakfasts and a decent dinner menu where you can order a basic steak, salmon, entree salad, etc. 

Nothing gourmet, but a nice decent meal.

I feel like Amtrak should at least want to meet the Hilton garden level of service for its multi-day long distance trains.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I feel like Amtrak should at least want to meet the Hilton garden level of service for its multi-day long distance trains.


I think we all do.


----------



## Steve4031

I booked to Toomey yes on the CZ for myself and gf departing emy on July 1. I’m monitoring this closely. If they continue this flex crap I will be canceling and we will fly home on United.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> What I don’t understand is what model are they looking at to base this off of?
> 
> Most hotels offer nice restaurants. Hilton Garden Inn’s offer cooked to order breakfasts and a decent dinner menu where you can order a basic steak, salmon, entree salad, etc.
> 
> Nothing gourmet, but a nice decent meal.
> 
> I feel like Amtrak should at least want to meet the Hilton garden level of service for its multi-day long distance trains.



The answer is that Amtrak is a government institution... the leadership in its departments serves the government, not the people. Amtrak is a government transport service. It's just like the post office... when the cost of the stamp goes up due to government mandate... you pay it. If the mail is lost or damaged, you must live with it.

Likewise, the products on Amtrak are the products that the government decides it will offer... and at the price they set. If they want to continue flex dining then you can take it or leave it. If you cancel your trip because you don't like flex dining, no one in the government will lose sleep over it. They don't care.

The government runs the country and the citizens adhere.

This is how this 'democracy' works. For example, Amtrak.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> The answer is that Amtrak is a government institution... the leadership in its departments serves the government, not the people. Amtrak is a government transport service. It's just like the post office... when the cost of the stamp goes up due to government mandate... you pay it. If the mail is lost or damaged, you must live with it.
> 
> Likewise, the products on Amtrak are the products that the government decides it will offer... and at the price they set. If they want to continue flex dining then you can take it or leave it. If you cancel your trip because you don't like flex dining, no one in the government will lose sleep over it. They don't care.
> 
> The government runs the country and the citizens adhere.
> 
> This is how this 'democracy' works. For example, Amtrak.



And there is something else I forgot to mention regarding the very faltering cardboard and plastic Amtrak Service.

What a joy to watch the blogs of rail travel in Russia, China, and Mongolia on my large screen TV. On all of those accounts, you see a ingenuity and quality reflected in the railroads... and the restaurant food service is a reflection of national pride in authentic traditional dishes. 

Such is vastly different than from the dismal state of affairs on our 'national railroad.' There's just no national pride.

This is all very sad... and somehow I've lost hope for the way we seem to be 'locked in to it.'


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Hilton Garden Inn’s offer cooked to order breakfasts and a decent dinner menu where you can order a basic steak, salmon, entree salad, etc. I feel like Amtrak should at least want to meet the Hilton garden level of service for its multi-day long distance trains.


I agree with the premise but are most HGI hotels actually making cooked-to-order breakfasts right now?



Steve4031 said:


> I booked to Toomey yes on the CZ for myself and gf departing emy on July 1. I’m monitoring this closely. If they continue this flex crap I will be canceling and we will fly home on United.


They're already on record with the Western LDN returning to conventional meals so hopefully that sticks. I'm less confident that the Eastern routes will receive much of an upgrade but hoping I'm wrong.



20th Century Rider said:


> The answer is that Amtrak is a government institution... the leadership in its departments serves the government, not the people. Amtrak is a government transport service. It's just like the post office... when the cost of the stamp goes up due to government mandate... you pay it. If the mail is lost or damaged, you must live with it. Likewise, the products on Amtrak are the products that the government decides it will offer... and at the price they set. If they want to continue flex dining then you can take it or leave it. If you cancel your trip because you don't like flex dining, no one in the government will lose sleep over it. They don't care. The government runs the country and the citizens adhere. This is how this 'democracy' works. For example, Amtrak.


Don't let it get you down too much. A return to daily trains should reduce fares, Western routes should resume more conventional dining in the near future, and a bit of extra planning can bring whatever you want with you. Keep in mind that meals are still low quality or missing altogether on most flights as well.









United Airlines First Class Impressions


What's it like to fly United Airlines first class in the coronavirus era? Here's my experience with the seats, food, drinks, and more.




onemileatatime.com


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree with the premise but are most HGI hotels actually making cooked-to-order breakfasts right now?



Not sure. The way that hotels have let individual owners decide how to modify services during covid has annoyed me as well.


----------



## Steve4031

I know United first class isn’t that great for food. Paying for the legroom.


----------



## Willbridge

20th Century Rider said:


> The answer is that Amtrak is a government institution... the leadership in its departments serves the government, not the people. Amtrak is a government transport service. It's just like the post office... when the cost of the stamp goes up due to government mandate... you pay it. If the mail is lost or damaged, you must live with it.
> 
> Likewise, the products on Amtrak are the products that the government decides it will offer... and at the price they set. If they want to continue flex dining then you can take it or leave it. If you cancel your trip because you don't like flex dining, no one in the government will lose sleep over it. They don't care.
> 
> The government runs the country and the citizens adhere.
> 
> This is how this 'democracy' works. For example, Amtrak.


We've been through this before. See the article in the middle of the attached clipping from the _Oregon Journal. _


----------



## Willbridge

20th Century Rider said:


> The answer is that Amtrak is a government institution... the leadership in its departments serves the government, not the people. Amtrak is a government transport service. It's just like the post office... when the cost of the stamp goes up due to government mandate... you pay it. If the mail is lost or damaged, you must live with it.
> 
> Likewise, the products on Amtrak are the products that the government decides it will offer... and at the price they set. If they want to continue flex dining then you can take it or leave it. If you cancel your trip because you don't like flex dining, no one in the government will lose sleep over it. They don't care.
> 
> The government runs the country and the citizens adhere.
> 
> This is how this 'democracy' works. For example, Amtrak.


We've been through this before. See the article in the middle of the attached clipping from the _Oregon Journal. _

View attachment 22088


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


That looks disgusting!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> That photo is the essence of flexible dining. Amtrak should be ashamed of foisting that crap on sleeper passengers.
> 
> That photo is the essence of flex dining. Amtrak should be embarrassed foisting that crap on sleeper passengers.


Is anyone listening to the passengers???


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Sigh, I am nervous for the future.



May want to take some of what's in the newly released service line plans with a grain of salt. This service line plan was clearly drafted before the return to daily service was secured through the COVID spending bill as it has a section about how they plan to evaluate and consider restoring daily long distance service. There is a bunch of outdated stuff that does not reflect these funding developments and much of this language is essentially the exact same thing that was in it last year. Additionally the Mica mandate has been put to bed so they have a little more flexibility now as to what they can offer for food service - we shall see.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> I feel like Amtrak should at least want to meet the Hilton garden level of service for its multi-day long distance trains.



I love Hilton Garden Inns, but their breakfast quality varies (I’m talking of pre-pandemic times now, when they had the made to order breakfasts and the buffet). I stayed at one (only once!) that made a very basic omelet and had just a few buffet items.

On the other end of the scale is my favorite HGI, in center city Philly, with a huge buffet and where the chef often handed me my omelet when I walked up because he knew what I liked in it and had seen me come in.

One morning, I was staying there and traveling later that day on the Silver Star right after it had lost its diner. When I told my waiter they only had the cafe left on the train, he disappeared for a few minutes. When he came back, he had a bag packed with a picnic lunch (on them), because he said they didn’t want me to be stuck with cafe food on the train for lunch!

It’s not just the food. It’s the difference in attitude.


----------



## me_little_me

We just stayed at three different Marriott low end properties (2 Springhill Suites and one Fairfield). 

One Springhill and the Fairfield served prepackaged garbage (microwavable) breakfast "sandwiches" or "omelets" (if you can call them that) along with the ubiquitous packaged muffin. Reminded me of Amtrak flex meals. They just handed out brown pre-set-up paper bags with these plus an orange and a highly sweetened yogurt. You used your room microwave to heat them.

The third had freshly cooked scrambled eggs, ham, fresh biscuit and a lot of other choices. When you went to the counter, you told them what you wanted and they made up a foam container in which they custom filled what you wanted and placed it there for you to pick up. Everything was properly heated and tasted very good.

One place decided that good food done right will bring back customers. We'll be back to that place. The others got a "3" on TripAdvisor. That one got a "5".

Amtrak could have done a lot better. They chose not to because management doesn't care about customer retention nor do they have any pride in their product. They are no better than two low-end and worthless hotels.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Sigh, I am nervous for the future.


Me too! And I think the reason so many of us feel this way is that there seems to be a 'credibility issue' with Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

20th Century Rider said:


> Me too! And I think the reason so many of us feel this way is that there seems to be a 'credibility issue' with Amtrak.



Exactly. Amtrak produced the Congress-required Performance Improvement Plans, then just decided not to implement them. Amtrak lies in its accounting reports, and then stopped publishing many of them to evade criticism. The LSL was given substandard dining "temporarily" and was supposed to get the new dining cars and restoration of full dining service when they arrived; it hasn't gotten the new dining cars and they removed real food from the trains entirely and now aren't even talking about bringing it back.

Amtrak management lies. A lot. They don't do what they said they were going to do. Serious credibility problem. Mr. Anderson made that a lot worse, though it was going on before. Mr. Flynn has not yet followed through on enough to recover credibility.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

neroden said:


> Exactly. Amtrak produced the Congress-required Performance Improvement Plans, then just decided not to implement them. Amtrak lies in its accounting reports, and then stopped publishing many of them to evade criticism. The LSL was given substandard dining "temporarily" and was supposed to get the new dining cars and restoration of full dining service when they arrived; it hasn't gotten the new dining cars and they removed real food from the trains entirely and now aren't even talking about bringing it back.
> 
> Amtrak management lies. A lot. They don't do what they said they were going to do. Serious credibility problem. Mr. Anderson made that a lot worse, though it was going on before. Mr. Flynn has not yet followed through on enough to recover credibility.


Hmmm... when there is no accountability in an organization... nothing happens. Got it!


----------



## RRrich

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well they can’t use the words “tasty” “yummy” or “attractive” to describe this...View attachment 22074


Looks like everyone's fav - The String Bean & Mashed Potato Plate. I am looking forward to being able to order it for all my meals on Amcrap LD routes [/sarcasm]


----------



## jis

RRrich said:


> Looks like everyone's fav - The String Bean & Mashed Potato Plate. I am looking forward to being able to order it for all my meals on Amcrap LD routes [/sarcasm]View attachment 22109


I don't think that is Mashed Potato. I believe it is Polenta.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

RRrich said:


> Looks like everyone's fav - The String Bean & Mashed Potato Plate. I am looking forward to being able to order it for all my meals on Amcrap LD routes [/sarcasm]View attachment 22109


The pic you show is the glamorous 'gussied up photo op' promotional presentation. But here's what it really looks like when they actually serve it...


----------



## neroden

So it's gonna be bring-my-own-meals and reheat them in a HotLogic for the forseeable future, until Amtrak starts providing decent food on the LSL. I would accept decent food in the cafe, which they had for a while, but they trashed that in 2018 too.


----------



## Sidney

The above photo is the essence of fine dining on an Amtrak trip that you could pay anywhere from $200 to $2500 depending on the length of the trip and class of service.


----------



## TrackWalker

jis said:


> I don't think that is Mashed Potato. I believe it is Polenta.



It is and it wasn't too bad after the Parmesan cheese I brought with me was added.

As a side note the person in the roomette across from me had ordered the same thing as I did. I offered him some cheese and he said no thanks. After tasting the meal he leaned over and said, "I've reconsidered your offer." LOL


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> I don't think that is Mashed Potato. I believe it is Polenta.


Here's what it looks to me in the meal:
Dead rat roadkill meat
Opheodrys vernalis - small (green) grass snakes
The orange things are cheap hot dogs
The off-white stuff is beach sand for the snakes to dig in.
I won't even say what the small white things are as I don't want to turn people against those delicious flex meals.


----------



## zephyr17

neroden said:


> Amtrak management lies. A lot. They don't do what they said they were going to do. Serious credibility problem. Mr. Anderson made that a lot worse, though it was going on before. Mr. Flynn has not yet followed through on enough to recover credibility.


Mr. Flynn is much better at PR than Anderson was. Not a high bar, I know.

I also do not at this point have any confidence a smoother presentation is not just a nicer wrapping on the same mindset (NEC uber alles). Gartner's promotion does not bode well.


----------



## flitcraft

20th Century Rider said:


> As Amtrak put it, "At the start of FY 2020, an updated food service for customers in private rooms was launched on several single night trains—targeting improved flexibility and customer satisfaction


. Well, now we know. They targeted customer satisfaction and successfully shot it dead. Mission accomplished!


----------



## lordsigma

neroden said:


> Exactly. Amtrak produced the Congress-required Performance Improvement Plans, then just decided not to implement them. Amtrak lies in its accounting reports, and then stopped publishing many of them to evade criticism. The LSL was given substandard dining "temporarily" and was supposed to get the new dining cars and restoration of full dining service when they arrived; it hasn't gotten the new dining cars and they removed real food from the trains entirely and now aren't even talking about bringing it back.
> 
> Amtrak management lies. A lot. They don't do what they said they were going to do. Serious credibility problem. Mr. Anderson made that a lot worse, though it was going on before. Mr. Flynn has not yet followed through on enough to recover credibility.


The lake shore does have a viewliner II dining car.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> The lake shore does have a viewliner II dining car.


Indeed! Lake Shore does have a Viewliner II Dining Car serving as the Sleeper Dining Lounge with Flex Food, just like most Eastern single level LDs


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> The pic you show is the glamorous 'gussied up photo op' promotional presentation. But here's what it really looks like when they actually serve it...
> 
> 
> View attachment 22110


Yep, Bait and Switch! Pass!!!


----------



## Dakota 400

Some comments about whether recent generations attach any "meaning" to a proper table seating, i.e. tablecloths, a small vase of flowers ( real or not), etc. cause me to post this thought.

If dining car service is going to return--in any form that was what many of us who are of a senior age remember--and the Sleeping Car pricing is going to remaining higher than they once were--as I think they will--then, the lack of any semblance to what "Dinner in the Diner" once was will be unacceptable to even those of us who are younger than we.


----------



## tim49424

me_little_me said:


> Here's what it looks to me in the meal:
> Dead rat roadkill meat
> Opheodrys vernalis - small (green) grass snakes
> The orange things are cheap hot dogs
> The off-white stuff is beach sand for the snakes to dig in.
> I won't even say what the small white things are as I don't want to turn people against those delicious flex meals.



My mouth is watering! Sign me up!


----------



## Anderson

Dakota 400 said:


> Some comments about whether recent generations attach any "meaning" to a proper table seating, i.e. tablecloths, a small vase of flowers ( real or not), etc. cause me to post this thought.
> 
> If dining car service is going to return--in any form that was what many of us who are of a senior age remember--and the Sleeping Car pricing is going to remaining higher than they once were--as I think they will--then, the lack of any semblance to what "Dinner in the Diner" once was will be unacceptable to even those of us who are younger than we.


I think what Amtrak is missing is that, regardless of generation, when they're charging nosebleed prices for the sleeper, the price point demands a certain level of service. This isn't to say that a lot of younger folks might not happily work with a "discount sleeper" option, just that Amtrak isn't meeting the expectations that their price points imply. Even pre-pandemic, I remember taking Delta and routing via JFK to MCO going to Florida because the _food _options were better once the diners were pulled (and the flights were cheaper, in F, than the sleeper if you knew how to manage booking them).


----------



## Sidney

Obviously flex dining is a huge downgrade from traditional dining. The sleeper prices did not reflect the downgrade,and in many cases rose

Decent food on a two day trip or more is essential. At least the Western trains are returning to full dining. However if people are willing to pay close to $500 on a Silver from NY to Fla and put up with that substandard food,Amtrak will charge it. That $500 is low bucket for a roomette one person. Most fares the remainder of the year are much higher


----------



## Railspike

A little over 2 weeks before "traditional" dining supposedly returns to western LD trains. A new menu, a partial new menu with some returning items, or the same menu selections before Covid? What's the word on the street?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Railspike said:


> A little over 2 weeks before "traditional" dining supposedly returns to western LD trains. A new menu, a partial new menu with some returning items, or the same menu selections before Covid? What's the word on the street?


"..The answer, my friend, is Blowin' in the Wind.."


----------



## lordsigma

Flex dining extended until June 30 - not surprising given the RPA video last week. Sadly this means my long planned trip will be flexible dining both ways.


----------



## lordsigma

Not surprising given the RPA presentation - they are working on it but it sounded like there was still a lot of work to do.


----------



## Sidney

Why the delay? I booked Coach on the CS for $50 in June. Glad I won't be missing traditional dining. This is the fourth time the return of traditional dining has been postponed. Now that we are stuck with flex dining a little longer I wish Amtrak would add sandwiches to their menu and let sleeper passengers have an option of a burger or a hot dog from the cafe car.

I'm on the EB and CS in September. I certainly hope traditional dining is back by then


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> Why the delay? I booked Coach on the CS for $50 in June. Glad I won't be missing traditional dining. This is the fourth time the return of traditional dining has been postponed. Now that we are stuck with flex dining a little longer I wish Amtrak would add sandwiches to their menu and let sleeper passengers have an option of a burger or a hot dog from the cafe car.
> 
> I'm on the EB and CS in September. I certainly hope traditional dining is back by then


The long distance business unit VP outright said outright they wouldn’t make the May 21 date due to having to get staff back - re-establishing the food supply chain - etc - they were aiming for June timeframe. They probably really don’t know exatly when it will happen and have probably just put July 1 as a placeholder.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> The long distance business unit VP outright said outright they wouldn’t make the May 21 date due to having to get staff back - re-establishing the food supply chain - etc - they were aiming for June timeframe. They probably really don’t know exatly when it will happen and have probably just put July 1 as a placeholder.


However I’m Not rescheduling the trip over the food - too many wheels in motion and people involved. I guess I’ll just skip lunch on board - the flex meals are way too much food to eat at both lunch and dinner.


----------



## TrackWalker

lordsigma said:


> However I’m Not rescheduling the trip over the food - too many wheels in motion and people involved. I guess I’ll just skip lunch on board - the flex meals are way too much food to eat at both lunch and dinner.



Ask and you may receive. The CS last week allowed me get something from the cafe car for lunch. Got a hot dog, soda and chips. But the EB did not allow it. You never know.

EDIT- Forgot to mention on the EB instead of the full flex meal for lunch I simply ordered my drink and a blondie to go.


----------



## lordsigma

TrackWalker said:


> Ask and you may receive. The CS last week allowed me get something from the cafe car for lunch. Got a hot dog, soda and chips. But the EB did not allow it. You never know.


I might give that a shot. Get a burger or something for lunch and have the flex meal at dinner - I like a couple of them so I’ll survive - just way too much food to eat two in a day. Ultimately riding for the scenery - and I figured it was pretty likely I’d have flex at least on the way out.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> The long distance business unit VP outright said outright they wouldn’t make the May 21 date due to having to get staff back - re-establishing the food supply chain - etc - they were aiming for June timeframe. They probably really don’t know exatly when it will happen and have probably just put July 1 as a placeholder.



Seems odd there would be so many steps for a “temporary” change in service. I’m guessing they weren’t planning on bringing it back...


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Flex dining extended until June 30 - not surprising given the RPA video last week. Sadly this means my long planned trip will be flexible dining both ways.


Evidence? That contradicts the email I received April 29:



> We are sorry for taking longer than expected to reply to your e-mail, due to an unusually high volume of e-mail correspondence. Your patience in this matter is appreciated.
> 
> Tradition dining will be offered for your travel. It is scheduled to return after May 21, 2021.
> 
> We look forward to seeing you onboard.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Geneva S.
> Amtrak Center of Excellence


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Evidence? That contradicts the email I received April 29:


I assume that they just postponed it now.


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> Evidence? That contradicts the email I received April 29:


Gotta love all that "excellence"...

PS-June 30th is officially up on the website now under Traditional Dining.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> Evidence? That contradicts the email I received April 29:


I’m surprised they sent you that email. The VP Larry Chester has said more than once it’d probably be sometime in June - theyd probably not make the return to daily service dates.


----------



## Maverickstation

Correct here is the update from the Amtrak website.......

*Service Change*
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through June 30, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seems odd there would be so many steps for a “temporary” change in service. I’m guessing they weren’t planning on bringing it back...


It’s a more than a year suspension - I’m sure that resulted in a termination of the entire supply chain for the meals and they have to re-establish that - and they probably could not start the process until the rescue plan passed. Also have to get enough OBS crew back from furlough. They're probably essentially starting from scratch.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

me_little_me said:


> Evidence? That contradicts the email I received April 29:


"return after May 21, 2021"
Last I checked, June 30th is after May 21st.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I’m surprised they sent you that email. The VP Larry Chester has said more than once it’d probably be sometime in June - theyd probably not make the return to daily service dates.


When I mentioned this the first time here after the RPA Council meeting, while some Chef returning from furlough in New Orleans said otherwise, we were told by some here that a Chef knows more than the responsible VP.  In any case the message says “after May 21, 2021”, without giving any specifics of how long after.

Remember originally Amtrak had said that they would restore full service as before the pandemic by July 1, if their budget request was appropriated. Their budget request was appropriated. Based on their original statement they have until July 1 to fully restore pre-pandemic service.



me_little_me said:


> Late May is not summer so who is lying, Chestler or Amtrak's web site which contradicts him by showing that Traditional Dining will be on trains in late May?
> 
> Hmmm!


So who was "lying"? 



crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s 50/50. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chef knows more about actual operations than the office guy giving a public speech.


Hail to the Chef!  Of course the guy who signs off on monthly expenditures, what would he know? Just a stupid office guy giving speeches. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> If full Diners are coming back on New Orleans based trains the New Orleans crew base is preparing for that change now.
> 
> I would take the New Orleans based chefs word for it, but that’s just me.


Fortunately


----------



## dcipjr

Rats. I have a round-trip PHL-SAN-PHL scheduled for June, and was _really_ hoping for Traditional Dining to be available on the trip.

At least I'll be able to have a beer included.


----------



## me_little_me

I requested and received a 100% refund from Amtrak back to my credit card for my June 2 trip to Grand Junction. I'll be damned if I'll pay $3500 for a trip to Colorado all with flex dining.

I'll remake the reservation AFTER Amtrak has already started Traditional dining on the western trains.

The agent told me Traditional dining starts May 21. I told her that contradicted the web site as well as the information I pulled up when I reviewed my reservation on Amtrak's site. She then looked it up and said that I was indeed correct. When I asked for a full refund with no penalty, she immediately agreed.

BTW, when I asked what the "Amtrak Center of Excellence" was, basically she said they were all part of it. Obviously, management is not included as she was never told that the information had changed and would have given out wrong information to anyone who asked.


----------



## Sidney

Glad I postponed a trip on the Starlight from June to September. Now I'm hoping traditional dining will be back by then. 

Again,why can't they offer cold sandwiches and burgers on the flex menu and a bagel option for breakfast and something other than a brownie for dessert? These reheated pre packaged meals are not what Amtrak passengers deserve when they are paying top dollar for a sleeper. I do remember when meals on Amtrak were something to look forward to.


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> Glad I postponed a trip on the Starlight from June to September. Now I'm hoping traditional dining will be back by then.
> 
> Again,why can't they offer cold sandwiches and burgers on the flex menu and a bagel option for breakfast and something other than a brownie for dessert? These reheated pre packaged meals are not what Amtrak passengers deserve when they are paying top dollar for a sleeper. I do remember when meals on Amtrak were something to look forward to.


In the interim it would indeed be nice if they simply allowed reasonable substitution from the Cafe menu. Absemt that I generally have a tendency to pass on the complementary stuff except the drinks and buy items off the cafe menu. That really makes a joke of the whole notion of complementary meals in the Sleeper IMHO. But I suppose that is what was Mica's original intent and Amtrak Board went along with without any protest. This is what happens when it is overloaded with Corridorheads.


----------



## Palmetto

What's so hard about adding items from the Acela first class menu in addition to the current Flex menu offerings? I believe that rotates to new items every so often, as well, correct?


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> What's so hard about adding items from the Acela first class menu in addition to the current Flex menu offerings? I believe that rotates to new items every so often, as well, correct?


They certainly did that on the Acelas before the pandemic. I have no idea what they did during the pandemic and what they plan to do come June 1 or July 1 or whenever they restore service.


----------



## LinPhil

WHELP


----------



## lordsigma

Palmetto said:


> What's so hard about adding items from the Acela first class menu in addition to the current Flex menu offerings? I believe that rotates to new items every so often, as well, correct?


They occasionally have off menu specials.


----------



## CTANut

I called Amtrak today, and the official information about traditional dining being restored will be released around the day that the train will be restored to daily service. For example, we will find out about the California Zephyr’s dining around May 24


----------



## zephyr17

CTANut said:


> I called Amtrak today, and the official information about traditional dining being restored will be released around the day that the train will be restored to daily service. For example, we will find out about the California Zephyr’s dining around May 24


Well, the official website is now stating June 30th for traditional dining to be restored on the Western trains.

The call center is kind of famously clueless about actual conditions and policies on the long distance services. They are good at making reservations and issuing etickets. That is about it.


----------



## me_little_me

zephyr17 said:


> Well, the official website is now stating June 30th for traditional dining to be restored on the Western trains.
> 
> The call center is kind of famously clueless about actual conditions and policies on the long distance services. They are good at making reservations and issuing etickets. That is about it.


But remember they are the "Amtrak Center of Excellence"


----------



## me_little_me

Palmetto said:


> What's so hard about adding items from the Acela first class menu in addition to the current Flex menu offerings? I believe that rotates to new items every so often, as well, correct?


Then they would have to own up to their

incompetence
stupidity
lack of care about their customers
failure to plan what they were doing
failure to admit their mistakes
lying
efforts to dump LD service by making it as miserable as they could


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> Then they would have to own up to their
> 
> incompetence
> stupidity
> lack of care about their customers
> failure to plan what they were doing
> failure to admit their mistakes
> lying
> efforts to dump LD service by making it as miserable as they could



With respect, they are bringing back traditional dining - this is not an effort to dump long distance service by making it as miserable as possible. It will happen when it happens - but it is happening. I’d suggest being patient a little bit longer - at the recent RPA event they hinted that a long distance centric 50th anniversary event will be taking place at Chicago union station in mid June where they will go over some of this. I personally found the recent event encouraging and they even proposed that bringing the sunset and cardinal to daily are being considered as part of the connect us corridor program as bringing those trains to daily could serve as the first round trip in some of the city pairing corridors along their routes.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> With respect, they are bringing back traditional dining - this is not an effort to dump long distance service by making it as miserable as possible. It will happen when it happens - but it is happening. I’d suggest being patient a little bit longer - at the recent RPA event they hinted that a long distance centric 50th anniversary event will be taking place at Chicago union station in mid June where they will go over some of this. I personally found the recent event encouraging and they even proposed that bringing the sunset and cardinal to daily are being considered as part of the connect us corridor program as bringing those trains to daily could serve as the first round trip in some of the city pairing corridors along their routes.


The issue was why they could not improve the flex dining (now), not bring back traditional dining later and later this year on western trains and not at some undefined time in the future for eastern ones.

If the Sunset and Cardinal going daily end up with the same expanded schedule as the Crescent, they will be as useless as the Crescent will be.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

We've been discussing Amtrak mismanagement, management indifference, management incompetence, and just plain management failure to manage. 

As an Amtrak customer, I find it absolutely offensive to 'dangle the carrot' then take it away by pushing back the date of a return to full service dining... over and over again. I also find the poor level of quality and quantity of those maliciously disgusting flex meals to be offensive. 

There is certainly a disconnect between Amtrak and the customers it serves. Amtrak is similar to the postal system. When you buy a stamp the post office determines what you will pay. You have no choice.

Mail delivery is subject to it's own set of problems as well. Letters get lost, or could be delivered late... etc. Amtrak is just the same. When it comes to who's at the bottom of the pecking order, it's the customer.

So... when it comes to Amtrak dining... they do what they want to do... and the customer makes the best of it... and pays the price that Amtrak want to charge.

BTW... that 'full service dining' that we are holding our breath for... will be comparatively modest as it will be a standard menu offered throughout the system where full service is offered... subject to further cutbacks... if and when it does come.

Soooo... all the above verbiage reiterates what we all know... Amtrak is a bureaucratic government institution.

Bla.  ‼⚠


----------



## fdaley

me_little_me said:


> I'll remake the reservation AFTER Amtrak has already started Traditional dining on the western trains.



I think this is probably the best policy for those of us who care a lot about this, given the possibility (likelihood) of further delays: Don't book until we know that dining service is actually up and running and we have reports of what the actual service standards are. There certainly is no way I'd want to book a trip out west, at Amtrak's sleeper prices, and have the risk of getting flex food the whole way. Of course, for people who are more free to travel in the summer months, the time for planning trips this year is already disappearing.


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> I think this is probably the best policy for those of us who care a lot about this, given the possibility (likelihood) of further delays: Don't book until we know that dining service is actually up and running and we have reports of what the actual service standards are. There certainly is no way I'd want to book a trip out west, at Amtrak's sleeper prices, and have the risk of getting flex food the whole way. Of course, for people who are more free to travel in the summer months, the time for planning trips this year is already disappearing.


If I didn’t have so many people involved with my June trip and so many moving parts I’d consider rescheduling mine but it would be too disruptive at this point. This will be my first time on the zephyr, coast starlight, and southwest chief so looking forward to seeing parts of the country I haven’t and adding some more states I have never been to. Disappointed but not surprised - will deal with the food. I think we’ll know more about what’s coming with traditional dining with that Chicago event.


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> But remember they are the "Amtrak Center of Excellence"


Amtrak Crater of Excellence


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> If I didn’t have so many people involved with my June trip and so many moving parts I’d consider rescheduling mine but it would be too disruptive at this point. This will be my first time on the zephyr, coast starlight, and southwest chief so looking forward to seeing parts of the country I haven’t and adding some more states I have never been to. Disappointed but not surprised - will deal with the food. I think we’ll know more about what’s coming with traditional dining with that Chicago event.



Oh, I understand. Once you start planning a trip like that, it's hard to undo things. And the scenery will still be great even if the food isn't. But that's an awful lot of miles with the same underwhelming choices for both lunch and dinner. Traveling alone, you can make it work, possibly supplementing from the cafe or off-train sources. But you (and the rest of us) really deserve better, particularly at the price of sleeper rooms, and decent food just really adds to the quality of the experience.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> Oh, I understand. Once you start planning a trip like that, it's hard to undo things. And the scenery will still be great even if the food isn't. But that's an awful lot of miles with the same underwhelming choices for both lunch and dinner. Traveling alone, you can make it work, possibly supplementing from the cafe or off-train sources. But you (and the rest of us) really deserve better, particularly at the price of sleeper rooms, and decent food just really adds to the quality of the experience.


Develop a contingency plan for some enjoyable nibbling and eating. There have been countless posts on supplementing or replacing those obnoxious disgusting flex flop puddle meals. Kosher meals can be ordered although they are known to be bland and unexciting. Do try to pre order the omelet for breakfast. You can also bring along PB&J to spread on a really good grain and seed bread... which I find very satisfying & will definitely last for the duration of a 2 nite trip... to supplement.

Munchies, chips, and, while in your room, a little snip of bourbon, [its allowed] can also add to the overall enjoyment and relaxation of riding along while watching drivers struggle in their cars with the traffic jams and sky high gasoline.

If you have a 'nice' attendant, as if you can get a meal in the cafe... although that stuff isn't very good either.

When in Chicago and or other big stations... see if you can get a pre-packaged salad to bring along.

Plan to spend about $20 a day on 'cuisine niceties' to upgrade your experience and don't pout... there's nothing that can be done about it. It's for you and your happiness.

And do enjoy the scenery and views along the way that can only be seen riding in a train!

Who knows what's next for Amtrak as the system consistently digresses. Just go and have an enjoyable trip!


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> Oh, I understand. Once you start planning a trip like that, it's hard to undo things. And the scenery will still be great even if the food isn't. But that's an awful lot of miles with the same underwhelming choices for both lunch and dinner. Traveling alone, you can make it work, possibly supplementing from the cafe or off-train sources. But you (and the rest of us) really deserve better, particularly at the price of sleeper rooms, and decent food just really adds to the quality of the experience.


Thankfully price wise I got lucky - I rebooked this during the height of the pandemic basically as soon as it was available so I got pretty much bottom of the barrel buckets across the board - I actually got a considerable amount of money back in vouchers from my original June 2020 res that I rebooked due to COVID at higher buckets. I'll probably just do the meal for dinner not for lunch - I'm ok with a couple of the flex meals but 10 of them will probably get bland and it is also too much food to eat two in one day.


----------



## tricia

lordsigma said:


> Thankfully price wise I got lucky - I rebooked this during the height of the pandemic basically as soon as it was available so I got pretty much bottom of the barrel buckets across the board - I actually got a considerable amount of money back in vouchers from my original June 2020 res that I rebooked due to COVID at higher buckets. I'll probably just do the meal for dinner not for lunch - I'm ok with a couple of the flex meals but 10 of them will probably get bland and it is also too much food to eat two in one day.



You might consider asking for just the tiny salad and roll at lunch, to be supplemented by whatever you'd like to bring with you--cheese, ham, PB, charcuterie, fruit....


----------



## alang

Planning a trip on the CZ mid-June. We have booked a Roomette. What can we expect for dining options? Thank you!


----------



## Bob Dylan

alang said:


> Planning a trip on the CZ mid-June. We have booked a Roomette. What can we expect for dining options? Thank you!


The current Flex (so-called Meals) Menu will still be in effect at least until till the end of June,so you'll not be eating well!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The current Flex (so-called Meals) Menu will still be in effect at least until till the end of June,so you'll not be eating well!


Flex meals were an Amtrak blunder from the Anderson era... but try not to let that interfere with the joy of riding on a train. Food wise there are several things you can do to 'improve' the bleak food situation...

1] Bring along some munchies, fruit, PB&J, and other goodies that travel well. 

2] Ask your SCA if you can order some of your meals from the cafe... although they aren't that healthy

3] Pre reserve the omelet for breakfast

4] Order up some kosher meals [must be done at least 3 days prior to departure]

5] Focus on the scenery!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Flex meals were an Amtrak blunder from the Anderson era... but try not to let that interfere with the joy of riding on a train. Food wise there are several things you can do to 'improve' the bleak food situation...
> 
> 1] Bring along some munchies, fruit, PB&J, and other goodies that travel well.
> 
> 2] Ask your SCA if you can order some of your meals from the cafe... although they aren't that healthy
> 
> 3] Pre reserve the omelet for breakfast
> 
> 4] Order up some kosher meals [must be done at least 3 days prior to departure]
> 
> 5] Focus on the scenery!!!


I agree except for #3!!! The 2 times I tried the Omelette they were terrible!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> I agree except for #3!!! The 2 times I tried the Omelette they were terrible!


OMG! And I thought that perhaps the omelette was a breakthrough attempt to improve the cardboard and sugar flex breakfast... thanks for the thumbs up... although now the food outlook is even more bleak!  

Do you or anyone else know about the Kosher choices???


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> OMG! And I thought that perhaps the omelette was a breakthrough attempt to improve the cardboard and sugar flex breakfast... thanks for the thumbs up... although now the food outlook is even more bleak!
> 
> Do you or anyone else know about the Kosher choices???


I've never tried the Kosher choices, but several of our members have given them approval.( of course anything is better than the TV Dinners full of Sodium, and the Sugar Bomb stuff.)

I actually thought that the Continential Breakast Mix and Match was OK, and the COD Dinners I had on the Eagle and Sunset on my 2 trips recently were passable, but of course not on a par with the old Salmon and other Seafood entrees served during Full Dining Service.

Some folks liked the Pasta and Meatballs, but the Beef,Noodle Bowl( Veggie Choice) and Chicken Dishes were Trash Can Worthy!

I liked the Brownie and Blondie, but miss the Cheesecake,Ice Cream,Chocolate Bundt Cake and the Bourbon Pecan Pie Deserts!


----------



## lonewolfette9847

In trying to understand where “Flex” Dining came from (I still don’t get how flex fits in), I found a couple of interesting articles & also discovered that Flex Dining existed before the pandemic (!) & admittedly I’m not as well versed as a lot of you are.





__





Food Service Losses Could Derail Support for Amtrak Subsidies - Roll Call


Florida Republican John L. Mica bristles at the idea of Amtrak partnering with master chefs to upgrade meals on its long-haul trains at a time when the passenger railroad continues to lose tens of millions of dollars a year on its food services. “Taxpayers would choke if they knew the costs of...




www.rollcall.com













Amtrak's cuts to dining service spurs Congress to action


Critics charge the halt of restaurant-style dining is part of an effort to make long-distance routes, a target of Trump administration cuts, less appealing.




www.rollcall.com


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> I've never tried the Kosher choices, but several of our members have given them approval.( of course anything is better than the TV Dinners full of Sodium, and the Sugar Bomb stuff.)
> 
> I actually thought that the Continential Breakast Mix and Match was OK, and the COD Dinners I had on the Eagle and Sunset on my 2 trips recently were passable, but of course not on a par with the old Salmon and other Seafood entrees served during Full Dining Service.
> 
> Some folks liked the Pasta and Meatballs, but the Beef,Noodle Bowl( Veggie Choice) and Chicken Dishes were Trash Can Worthy!
> 
> I liked the Brownie and Blondie, but miss the Cheesecake,Ice Cream,Chocolate Bundt Cake and the Bourbon Pecan Pie Deserts!


Thanks for the info... am making a circle USA trip in October and with all the 'surprises' don't know what to expect. When 'flexing' on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... will definitely try the codfish; but the rest of it will have me deferring to the Kosher salmon and Kosher breakfast. And anything I can pick up at the large stations.

In Japan there are 'Ekiben' [Japanese train station bento box] stores at every station. Wish we had them here!


----------



## Sidney

lonewolfette9847 said:


> In trying to understand where “Flex” Dining came from (I still don’t get how flex fits in), I found a couple of interesting articles & also discovered that Flex Dining existed before the pandemic (!) & admittedly I’m not as well versed as a lot of you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Food Service Losses Could Derail Support for Amtrak Subsidies - Roll Call
> 
> 
> Florida Republican John L. Mica bristles at the idea of Amtrak partnering with master chefs to upgrade meals on its long-haul trains at a time when the passenger railroad continues to lose tens of millions of dollars a year on its food services. “Taxpayers would choke if they knew the costs of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollcall.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's cuts to dining service spurs Congress to action
> 
> 
> Critics charge the halt of restaurant-style dining is part of an effort to make long-distance routes, a target of Trump administration cuts, less appealing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rollcall.com


The term "flexible dining" was supposed to mean you could eat any time you wanted with no reservations needed. Every train I have been on since flex dining started required a reservation.


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> The term "flexible dining" was supposed to mean you could eat any time you wanted with no reservations needed. Every train I have been on since flex dining started required a reservation.


I though it meant that you could use those little plastic plates as frisbees, or balance the little casserole meal on your head as you walked through the train and back to your room...


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> I've never tried the Kosher choices, but several of our members have given them approval.( of course anything is better than the TV Dinners full of Sodium, and the Sugar Bomb stuff.)
> 
> I actually thought that the Continential Breakast Mix and Match was OK, and the COD Dinners I had on the Eagle and Sunset on my 2 trips recently were passable, but of course not on a par with the old Salmon and other Seafood entrees served during Full Dining Service.
> 
> Some folks liked the Pasta and Meatballs, but the Beef,Noodle Bowl( Veggie Choice) and Chicken Dishes were Trash Can Worthy!
> 
> I liked the Brownie and Blondie, but miss the Cheesecake,Ice Cream,Chocolate Bundt Cake and the Bourbon Pecan Pie Deserts!


My choices are the chicken fettuccini and pasta, always with the blondie.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> The term "flexible dining" was supposed to mean you could eat any time you wanted with no reservations needed. Every train I have been on since flex dining started required a reservation.


You could always ask your SCA anytime you wish I believe for food. However might want someone to double check that...


----------



## neroden

20th Century Rider said:


> Thanks for the info... am making a circle USA trip in October and with all the 'surprises' don't know what to expect. When 'flexing' on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... will definitely try the codfish; but the rest of it will have me deferring to the Kosher salmon and Kosher breakfast. And anything I can pick up at the large stations.
> 
> In Japan there are 'Ekiben' [Japanese train station bento box] stores at every station. Wish we had them here!
> 
> 
> View attachment 22252
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22253
> 
> 
> View attachment 22254


This would do me just fine. *drool*


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## me_little_me

Cal said:


> You could always ask your SCA anytime you wish I believe for food. However might want someone to double check that...


Not good enough. Flex meals mean you have to be flexible as the SCAs vary so much in service that someone else's experience with good service can only be assuredly duplicated if you have the same SCA as that person.


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## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> Not good enough. Flex meals mean you have to be flexible as the SCAs vary so much in service that someone else's experience with good service can only be assuredly duplicated if you have the same SCA as that person.


One of the most Amtrak things, ever.


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## pennyk

I had the flex meal omelette this morning for the first time. It was not terrible - it was better than I expected but not great. Of course, traditional dining omelette is much better. The dining car/sleeper lounge on the Meteor has every other table blocked off. Around 6:45, every available table was taken but passengers rotated in and out. Some people brought their breakfast back to their rooms, but most seemed to eat inside the dining car (unlike lunch yesterday when there were only 2 of us in that car). It seemed to work smoothly. Refills on coffee/hot water/ice were pretty easy. The LSA (a young guy who I had not seen before this trip) was friendly and efficient. He seems optimistic that traditional dining will return to the Meteor.


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## Mailliw

I wonder if Amtrak is going to stop blocking off ever other table soon now that they've stopped blocking off seats?


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> I wonder if Amtrak is going to stop blocking off ever other table soon now that they've stopped blocking off seats?


That might require more staff.


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## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> That might require more staff.



Why? The flex diner has never operated with additional staff.


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## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why? The flex diner has never operated with additional staff.


Thinking more tables available may increase demand, more turnover, more tables to clean? It's convenient to leave a few closed off or for storing supplies.


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## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Thinking more tables available may increase demand, more turnover, more tables to clean? It's convenient to leave a few closed off or for storing supplies.



I never saw anyone clean or clear tables on the meteor.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I never saw anyone clean or clear tables on the meteor.


Well theres always two tables in the superliners with stuff on them!


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## elaineprescott

On the Amtrak website. Does this mean "traditional" real prepared in the kitchen food will reappear after June 30? We're taking the San Francisco Zephyr from Chicago to SF in September but not if they will have only the airline food.


*Service Change*
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through June 30, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


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## Cal

elaineprescott said:


> On the Amtrak website. Does this mean "traditional" real prepared in the kitchen food will reappear after June 30? We're taking the San Francisco Zephyr from Chicago to SF in September but not if they will have only the airline food.
> 
> 
> *Service Change*
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through June 30, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


Don't hold your breath on that time frame. They already delayed it once/


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## zephyr17

elaineprescott said:


> We're taking the San Francisco Zephyr from Chicago to SF in September but not if they will have only the airline food.


Interesting. The San Francisco Zephyr never lost traditional dining service.

It had traditional dining car service right through its last run. In 1983.


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## zephyr17

Cal said:


> Don't hold your breath on that time frame. They already delayed it once/


More than once.


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## Sidney

It's been delayed four times. The last date was May 21. I really hope this time it's for real. Outrageous sleeper prices continue,as well as this substandard food.


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## lordsigma

I wouldn't place bets/hopes on any date including June 30th. They have begun the process - but it's probably one of those things where it will get done when it gets done and may not be on every train at once. Once they have supply chain/menus nailed down, then its a matter of crewing each route.


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## tricia

I also wouldn't place bets/hopes on full-service dining returning in exactly the form it was before flex food was implemented. We might imagine it being as good or even better than before, but since they're in effect starting from scratch with new supplies, the menu might be quite different. And "upgrade" isn't something Amtrak's done well in recent years.


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## jis

Until June 30 they have a free pass to do whatever. After June 30 they start violating the stipulations for the funding provided in the supplementary bill, which may upset some Congress people, and certainly give them a stick to beat them on the head with.


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## me_little_me

tricia said:


> And "upgrade" isn't something Amtrak's done well in recent years.


That word is not in their dictionary other than as an example when looking for the definition of "lie" as in
lie


> *verb (used without object), lied, ly·ing.*
> to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
> to express what is false; convey a false impression.
> example:
> "We are going to upgrade service by providing flex meals"
> "We care about long distance. We are upgrading the linens and amenities"
> "We are upgrading our service while we keep our prices low"


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## zephyr17

Didn't they promote the reheated dog food that is "Flexible/Contemporary Dining" as an upgrade?

You know, for the Millennials?


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## Oaxacajo

I keep seeing the suggestion of pre-ordering the breakfast omelet. How? Can this be done during Flex Meal service?


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## Way2Kewl

jis said:


> Until June 30 they have a free pass to do whatever. After June 30 they start violating the stipulations for the funding provided in the supplementary bill, which may upset some Congress people, and certainly give them a stick to beat them on the head with.



I sure hope AMTRAK management agrees.

I’m going back out July 3 on the Zephyr, hang at the Joliet Casino for 2 days and return back to Dallas on Eagle. I’ve really tried hard to put up with the Flex meals but after 4 Zephyr/Eagle trips in the last year I really don’t even want to order one again. I’ve been working hard to find layovers where the depot has food close enough to order should we be on time. I just can’t eat another Flex meal, they are really bad. The traditional dining not only was an experience, the food was extremely good considering they’re in a moving kitchen. I’m hoping come July 1 we see traditional dining return and I can order another Omelet for breakfast and Steak for dinner. I’d also like to see the coffee stations in the sleepers stocked possibly with a sign that says if you’ve not had your vaccine shots then enjoy at your own risk. I travel alone and early morning I’m tied of asking the cafe person for 4 cups of coffee so I don’t have to go back and forth until I’m ready for full breakfast. Oh well… just venting… sorry

Sure hope all goes well for the $80B Amtrak funding


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## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> I though it meant that you could use those little plastic plates as frisbees, or balance the little casserole meal on your head as you walked through the train and back to your room...
> 
> View attachment 22255


Flex meals are very tiny and flimsy and don't require a lot of effort to grab, gulp, and then dance around with the plates balanced upon one's elbows. But please understand that the millennials don't like to be cast upon as the recipients of such silly nonsense that has evolved from the misguided, confused, and incompetent Amtrak management who assign and determine what the passengers will eat... and the reasoning therein!


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## 20th Century Rider

Way2Kewl said:


> I sure hope AMTRAK management agrees.
> 
> I’m going back out July 3 on the Zephyr, hang at the Joliet Casino for 2 days and return back to Dallas on Eagle. I’ve really tried hard to put up with the Flex meals but after 4 Zephyr/Eagle trips in the last year I really don’t even want to order one again. I’ve been working hard to find layovers where the depot has food close enough to order should we be on time. I just can’t eat another Flex meal, they are really bad. The traditional dining not only was an experience, the food was extremely good considering they’re in a moving kitchen. I’m hoping come July 1 we see traditional dining return and I can order another Omelet for breakfast and Steak for dinner. I’d also like to see the coffee stations in the sleepers stocked possibly with a sign that says if you’ve not had your vaccine shots then enjoy at your own risk. I travel alone and early morning I’m tied of asking the cafe person for 4 cups of coffee so I don’t have to go back and forth until I’m ready for full breakfast. Oh well… just venting… sorry
> 
> Sure hope all goes well for the $80B Amtrak funding



You're not 'just venting' but you are reacting to what amounts to scamming the loyal patrons!

Kinda sad that all of us passengers paying so much for LD must fend for ourselves when it comes to sustainable nourishment. The offensive deterioration of service is a clarion that Amtrak wants to get out of the business it is in and stop existing. We must assume the responsibility of extending dilemma by giving management what it wants... cancellation of our patronage.


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## zephyr17

Way2Kewl, you have every right to vent. The whole thing is beyond ridiculous.

The Amtrak Board of Directors needs to be replaced, with executive management, especially Gartner, following close behind.


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## cocojacoby

Although I have never personally had them, many people raved about the mussels. They probably were an easy entrée to "cook" in a microwave and it sounded like a very popular choice. Don't know why Amtrak discontinued them since it would seem like an easy option to add to the "Flex Meal" menu. If you got something that works don't eliminate it.


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## zephyr17

cocojacoby said:


> If you got something that works don't eliminate it.


You would clearly be unqualified to be on Amtrak's management team with such thoughts.


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## Sidney

cocojacoby said:


> Although I have never personally had them, many people raved about the mussels. They probably were an easy entrée to "cook" in a microwave and it sounded like a very popular choice. Don't know why Amtrak discontinued them since it would seem like an easy option to add to the "Flex Meal" menu. If you got something that works don't eliminate it.


Loved the Mussels. They were replaced by short ribs. Both were good. I really hope Traditional dining is back by July 1. I had high hopes for May 22 and I even booked a trip for that day.


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## Cal

Sidney said:


> Loved the Mussels. They were replaced by short ribs. Both were good. I really hope Traditional dining is back by July 1. I had high hopes for May 22 and I even booked a trip for that day.


Never have high hopes with Amtrak...


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## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Never have high hopes with Amtrak...


You can have high hopes, as long as you also have low expectations. That's what we tell people who get Cochlear Implants to have for their activation day.


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## zephyr17

AmtrakBlue said:


> You can have high hopes, as long as you also have low expectations. That's what we tell people who get Cochlear Implants to have for their activation day.


I'm just happy when the floor heat in my roomette isn't stuck on "roast".


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## JRR

cocojacoby said:


> Although I have never personally had them, many people raved about the mussels. They probably were an easy entrée to "cook" in a microwave and it sounded like a very popular choice. Don't know why Amtrak discontinued them since it would seem like an easy option to add to the "Flex Meal" menu. If you got something that works don't eliminate it.


They were very good. My wife and I always got them when available and added a splash of white wine to the sauce!


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## Sidney

JRR said:


> They were very good. My wife and I always got them when available and added a splash of white wine to the sauce!


It wasn't a pre packaged meal. So many asinine moves Amtrak is making


----------



## Bob Dylan

JRR said:


> They were very good. My wife and I always got them when available and added a splash of white wine to the sauce!


The only problem was the serving was small, I could have eaten twice as many!


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## pennyk

JRR said:


> They were very good. My wife and I always got them when available and added a splash of white wine to the sauce!


I think I recall sitting at a table on the Meteor (I think) and watching her do that.


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## 20th Century Rider

cocojacoby said:


> Although I have never personally had them, many people raved about the mussels. They probably were an easy entrée to "cook" in a microwave and it sounded like a very popular choice. Don't know why Amtrak discontinued them since it would seem like an easy option to add to the "Flex Meal" menu. If you got something that works don't eliminate it.


I really enjoyed the mussels at lunch... very light but savory and delicious... and a great food to eat as you make new friends at the table and watch the scenery fly by. Brings back great memories of rail travel!


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## Trailrider1951

I never got to try the mussels, so I hope they come back some day. In the meantime, here's a guy that shows you how to prepare them:


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## willem

After the (fully justified) nutrition comments about sugar-bomb breakfasts, I'm surprised no one has commented on the sodium content of the mussels. While I agree that they tasted good, I think they could have tasted just as good with two days' worth of sodium rather than four. (No, I don't recall the actual sodium content, but I do recall commenting that it was sufficient to stiffen the arteries on a corpse so it could stand at attention.)


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## Ferroequinologist

Just found this. Cue to 16:51. I especially enjoyed seeing the waiter debone the fresh trout. So glad we have flex dining. Thank God for Amtrak:


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## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> Just found this. Cue to 16:51. I especially enjoyed seeing the waiter debone the fresh trout. So glad we have flex dining. Thank God for Amtrak:




OMG! Do I wish we could turn back the clock!

Which brings a big issue... why does the passage of time need to decrease the quality of life?

The downfall of passenger service quality on Amtrak is a disservice to the American heritage of railroad transportation.


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## jruff001

Ferroequinologist said:


> Just found this. Cue to 16:51. I especially enjoyed seeing the waiter debone the fresh trout. So glad we have flex dining. Thank God for Amtrak:


Great find, and thanks for sharing!

But the business model that would support a waiter deboning fresh trout nightly on a method of transportation that takes three days to get from Chicago to San Francisco has been dead for what, like 60 years now? So forgive me if I am taking your last sentence the wrong way, but are you really blaming Amtrak for that? Or do you think that simply changing Amtrak management would make that return in any sustainable way?

IMO, I do indeed thank Amtrak for keeping some semblance of transcon rail travel alive all this time, given all the challenges.


----------



## SanDiegan

crescent-zephyr said:


> It doesn’t solve any issues. If Amtrak wants to serve better food, they just have to order better quality food. That’s literally all it takes.


They already order it for their beloved Acela First Class passengers


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## jruff001

20th Century Rider said:


> Which brings a big issue... why does the passage of time need to decrease the quality of life?


Big issue indeed. 99% of people would say being able to go affordably from Chicago to SF in four hours vs. three days is a HUGE increase in QoL, no?

And a decrease in QoL for whom? Yes the white people being waited on hand and foot in the dining and sleeping cars and swimming happily in the Glenwood Springs resort pool looked very happy, but those images certainly don't look like the U.S. today (and seemed to be leaving out a lot of the people who were in the U.S. even in the 1950s).

Plus I am not sure how many women in 2021 would enjoy wearing all those crazy hats all the time.


----------



## SanDiegan

railiner said:


> Because of this, I believe that the self-serve buffet's everywhere, land and sea, will be forever, "gone with the wind"...
> You'll still have buffet's, but you'll place your plate in front of the server, and they will dish it out for you. This will of course mean greater staffing costs, but may also limit waste, as 'glutton's' may be too embarrassed to ask for a huge pile of food at each serving...
> I wonder how the "Golden Corral" chain is faring, these days...?


They've pretty much disappeared around here ...


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## 20th Century Rider

No one will argue that America is a land of many abuses and sins to humanity. In humble respect to these atrocities and to your comments. The railroad building era did not respect the dignity of human individuals ... and that needs to be acknowledged. This includes Chinese slave labor where lives were sacrificed to build rail across the great divide... and others who were brought in to build the road beds across mountain passes... as well as the service on the cars... which involved so much humility and suffering. Standing in solidarity with the need for respect to all humanity.

This predates Amtrak but I wonder is Amtrak acknowledges the human injustices in its history.


----------



## Bob Dylan

SanDiegan said:


> They've pretty much disappeared around here ...


Theres only 1 Left here in Austin and they're serving the Food Cafeteria Style.

Vegas is doing the same thing with their Buffets, which arent cheap anymore!( they're also re-instating Pay to Park, Opening Shows and going to 100% Capacity in the Casinos!)


----------



## jruff001

20th Century Rider said:


> No one will argue that America is a land of many abuses and sins to humanity. In humble respect to these atrocities and to your comments. The railroad building era did not respect the dignity of human individuals ... and that needs to be acknowledged. This includes Chinese slave labor where lives were sacrificed to build rail across the great divide... and others who were brought in to build the road beds across mountain passes... as well as the service on the cars... which involved so much humility and suffering. Standing in solidarity with the need for respect to all humanity.
> 
> This predates Amtrak but I wonder is Amtrak acknowledges the human injustices in its history.


Wow, great response, thanks.

And very interesting & thought-provoking question about Amtrak acknowledging the human injustices in its history. I seem to recall it did something to recognize the former Pullman Porters who were now SCAs at one point a few years ago, although I may be confusing that with something else in my admittedly poor memory so I welcome being corrected.

In any case, Amtrak has only been around since the 1970s, so I am not sure what human injustices you are referring to. I don't think it can be responsible for things that happened to other, not really even related companies before it even existed? It's not like Amtrak was a simple change of owner / successor company to (say) Santa Fe in a 100% stock purchase, inheriting all the liabilities and getting rich in the meantime. Rather, it inherited the decrepit physical assets of a bunch of semi-broke companies and did what it could to survive.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sorry to say... some of the most ruthless RR Barons in US history founded the RR's we have always loved... but on injustice. How imperfect is the world... especially US history.









Meet Some of the Notorious Robber Barons of the 19th Century


Learn about the robber barons, who used ruthless business tactics to acquire great wealth in the late 19th century.




www.thoughtco.com


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Theres only 1 Left here in Austin and they're serving the Food Cafeteria Style.
> 
> Vegas is doing the same thing with their Buffets, which arent cheap anymore!( they're also re-instating Pay to Park, Opening Shows and going to 100% Capacity in the Casinos!)


Savoring the memories of Horn and Hardart in NYC... you put in 25c and opened the door to take some really great food. It was so very magical!

Pies, hot coffee, and sandwiches... yum yum... it was the height of dreams!


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep your comments on the topic of *Amtrak Dining*. Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

SanDiegan said:


> They've pretty much disappeared around here ...


The Metropolitan Lounge in CHI had a self serve buffet of veggies, cheese, and dip. Although the food was fresh and appetizing, I avoided it because everyone handled the serving ware - and even though pre-covid, it appeared to be dangerously unsanitary. For my own health and safety, I avoid common handled serving utensils; and prefer pre wrapped snacks.

Many of the airline lounges around the world have gone to pre-wrapped individual serve items for quite some time.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> The Metropolitan Lounge in CHI had a self serve buffet of veggies, cheese, and dip. Although the food was fresh and appetizing, I avoided it because everyone handled the serving ware - and even though pre-covid, it appeared to be dangerously unsanitary. For my own health and safety, I avoid common handled serving utensils; and prefer pre wrapped snacks.
> 
> Many of the airline lounges around the world have gone to pre-wrapped individual serve items for quite some time.



It bothered me how many passengers were refilling water bottles from the water and soda machines at the Lounge even though signs clearly said not to. :-/


----------



## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> The cafe food has a lower target quality but seems to get closer to actually reaching it. Or at least it did before the pandemic. Doesn't sound like they carry many of the previous options anymore.


Only on the auto train - auto train cafe still has everything - but Covid cuts removed “fresh” options (salads, sandwiches) basically everywhere else with only longer shelf life microwaveable type items along with the snacks and junk food remaining.. NEC Corridor cafe still bare bones at least as of my last trip a little more than a week ago. So far the only F&B “restored” is Acela first - and as we all know they did NOT get the previous Acela meals back they basically got flexible dining minus salads.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IMHO ... tired of the relentless disregard and abuse by Amtrak for the American rail traveler... I wanna say:

Let us not lose sight of the basic need for basic comforts when traveling 2 nights and 3 days on the Western routes... and 3 nights and 3 days of the Texas Eagle. 

Fairly fresh and healthful food is a must for such a long journey. And in all those days and hours... a central car for stretching, meeting other travelers, and viewing the passing scenery of this vast nation... the SSL.

That Amtrak has done away with these essentials by taking away the SSL's and basic dining essentials...simply bringing an affront on the long distance traveler who pays for and expects these basic amenities.

Here is the point of despair... Amtrak is losing loyal clientele who want to spend more to enjoy traveling through America to see the scenery... in relative comfort and with some kind of appropriate dining amenities. We are willing to pay charges which are quite steep! Other countries are way ahead of Amtrak with LD services of abundant appropriate amenities and at more affordable charges.

Amtrak wants to do away with basic amenities for the long distance traveler... with a total disregard. A lack of planning and goals has us wondering if they just want to vaporize their business.

Perhaps by begging them to keep our patronage... we are selling ourselves short. So in the deterioration of basic service are we as a clientele not big enough and strong enough to just walk away???

Always it has been a fundamental American capitalist occurrence that when there is a bankruptcy of wanted goods and services which blows up in the face of the consumer... another entrepreneurship comes along to save the day. The competitor get the business and revenue... and the consumer gets what they are crying our for.

So let us no be so dependent on government run Amtrak... who is so apparently spoiled by the American desire for decent rail service... but thoughtless in disregard! Either serve the American public with viable passenger rail... or let a competitor take over!


----------



## jruff001

20th Century Rider said:


> So let us no be so dependent on government run Amtrak... who is so apparently spoiled by the American desire for decent rail service... but thoughtless in disregard! Either serve the American public with viable passenger rail... or let a competitor take over!


What "competitor" is interested in taking over Amtrak?


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## niemi24s

jruff001 said:


> What "competitor" is interested in taking over Amtrak?


There's probably at least three of them in 20th Century Rider's dream world.


----------



## jis

niemi24s said:


> There's probably at least three of them in 20th Century Rider's dream world.


In a dream world, why stop at just three?


----------



## fillyjonk

I suspect if we got a privately-run passenger train system, it would be one of two things:

1. Greyhound on rails, but worse
2. So expensive that only Silicon Valley tech-bros and celebrities can afford it.

Then again: If the govt. stopped subsidizing airlines I suspect their services would be even worse and a lot of smaller areas would lose air service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fillyjonk said:


> I suspect if we got a privately-run passenger train system, it would be one of two things:
> 
> 1. Greyhound on rails, but worse
> 2. So expensive that only Silicon Valley tech-bros and celebrities can afford it.
> 
> Then again: If the govt. stopped subsidizing airlines I suspect their services would be even worse and a lot of smaller areas would lose air service.



Isn’t Amtrak long distance a weird mix of both of those?


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Isn’t Amtrak long distance a weird mix of both of those?


Presuming a private operator was saddled with running some "essential" routes, they would still focus on what makes money. There would probably be no changes to the NEC and they might try one long-distance "experiential" train. Everything else would be bare bones.


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## zephyr17

jiml said:


> Everything else would be bare bones.


Everything else would be gone in fairly short order.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> Everything else would be gone in fairly short order.



Honestly that might be better than what we have now. If Amtrak is determined to make long distance trains worse just go ahead and kill them off. With flex dining, soon to be worse schedules, and now the loss of SSL’s on at least some trains... what’s the use of trying. 

Even Many of the “Amtrak fans” on this board think Amtrak should just run corridor trains.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Everything else would be gone in fairly short order.


I made the presumption that some services would be mandatory and would have to be continued by a private operator in exchange for the lucrative ones. Such a requirement would be unpalatable to most applicants, effectively thinning the pool.


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## zephyr17

jiml said:


> I made the presumption that some services would be mandatory and would have to be continued by a private operator in exchange for the lucrative ones. Such a requirement would be unpalatable to most applicants, effectively thinning the pool.


Effectively privatizing the longstanding, unspoken political deal that has been in place since the mid-late 70s. Northeast gets to keep the Corridor in exchange for a thin national network.

Might work better, as long as they were held to it.

Who pays the capital costs and maintenance expenses for the NEC physical rail infrastructure, though? When those are factored in the NEC is massively underwater.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Honestly that might be better than what we have now. If Amtrak is determined to make long distance trains worse just go ahead and kill them off. With flex dining, soon to be worse schedules, and now the loss of SSL’s on at least some trains... what’s the use of trying.


How is that better than what we have now? Leaving something behind for future generations to rebuild again is better than destroying everything that is no longer appealing to us. Once a service is downgraded it's difficult to get it upgraded again, but still a whole lot easier than trying to start over from nothing at all.


----------



## jruff001

jiml said:


> I made the presumption that some services would be mandatory and would have to be continued by a private operator in exchange for the lucrative ones.


There are no lucrative ones.

At least depending on how "lucrative" is defined. An LD route out there might make technically make an operational profit once in a while for a short period of time when there are no disruptions and during a peak time of the year. But consistently and on a large enough scale to offset other routes? No way.

And that would not count capital costs, like equipment. I suppose this new operating successor would inherit Amtrak's current equipment but no way they would be willing / able to invest in new equipment.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Even having the discussion of this page is acknowledging Gardner and Flynn have won. They haven’t and they won’t. Buttigieg isn’t a complicit empty suit like Elaine Choi was. Biden may literally have the weight of the world on his shoulders but Amtrak’s cleaning of the house can be done in an afternoon.

As far as talk of no suitable replacements left in this day and age? Come on. Any competent public transportation official for operations along with a competent person from the hospitality industry whether that be hotel, dining and yes even an airline. They could even poach someone from Via for that matter.

I’m sure someone like Brian Rosenwald with recent knowledge of Amtrak would be happy to consult part time as well. The fact of the matter is people in all walks of life like trains and train travel. it would be a personally rewarding job for the right set of people. Right now we just have bean counters in charge with no skin or interest in the game or train travel. These guys we have don’t even ride the trains they manage.


----------



## jiml

jruff001 said:


> There are no lucrative ones.
> 
> At least depending on how "lucrative" is defined. An LD route out there might make technically make an operational profit once in a while for a short period of time when there are no disruptions and during a peak time of the year. But consistently and on a large enough scale to offset other routes? No way.
> 
> And that would not count capital costs, like equipment. I suppose this new operating successor would inherit Amtrak's current equipment but no way they would be willing / able to invest in new equipment.


What started out as basic agreement with your position in Post #1535, seems to have put me on the side of "privatize Amtrak" people. My position was that few buyers would be rushing to step in and that those who might would primarily be interested in "for-profit" routes such as the NEC, Auto Train and perhaps one experiential long-distance train in the style of the Canadian or Rocky Mountaineer - maybe the Zephyr? On that premise those routes could be considered lucrative. However, if a prospective buyer was also forced to operate "essential" routes, such as the freight railroads were prior to Amtrak, their interest would wane even more. The best current example of this is Britain forcing private companies to operate "parliamentary" routes as a condition of their license to operate for-profit ones.


----------



## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> There are no lucrative ones.
> 
> At least depending on how "lucrative" is defined. An LD route out there might make technically make an operational profit once in a while for a short period of time when there are no disruptions and during a peak time of the year. But consistently and on a large enough scale to offset other routes? No way.
> 
> And that would not count capital costs, like equipment. I suppose this new operating successor would inherit Amtrak's current equipment but no way they would be willing / able to invest in new equipment.


You are, of course, assuming that the government would simply turn over Amtrak's equipment, routes, etc to a private organization.

On the other hand, the government could retain ownership and responsibility for everything including purchasing of new equipment except the operation and fund that separately from providing the contractor with a fixed fee for running everything. That could produce different results and get more bi-partisan support albeit would require the government to closely monitor things to insure a chance of success. There are successful cases of something like e.g. our National Park lodging and amenities are run privately but owned by the government.

I am only suggesting that there are other possible alternatives to selling to a private for-profit company outright and not saying it WOULD be better than what we have but as of now, Amtrak seems to have no more interest in what their customers want than the worst of the private companies and apparently are not answerable to those who are actually paying the bill - the taxpayers.


----------



## jis

Privatization works long term only when you selectively privatize the profit and socialize the loss. Even if NEC is sold to some private entity, they will then figure out ways of socializing out all the losses and foist it back upon the government or society at large, and cream skim only the profit part. That is a natural way of doing things which is hard to change.


----------



## jruff001

jiml said:


> What started out as basic agreement with your position in Post #1535, seems to have put me on the side of "privatize Amtrak" people. My position was that few buyers would be rushing to step in and that those who might would primarily be interested in "for-profit" routes such as the NEC, Auto Train and perhaps one experiential long-distance train in the style of the Canadian or Rocky Mountaineer - maybe the Zephyr? On that premise those routes could be considered lucrative. However, if a prospective buyer was also forced to operate "essential" routes, such as the freight railroads were prior to Amtrak, their interest would wane even more.


I think if the NEC or AT were truly lucrative or even profitable, they would - or at least should - already have been privatized. Let the Amtrak subsidies go just to the LD routes.



> The best current example of this is Britain forcing private companies to operate "parliamentary" routes as a condition of their license to operate for-profit ones.


Yep, which (and you probably know this, but for the benefit who might not), didn't work and has been ended.


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> You are, of course, assuming that the government would simply turn over Amtrak's equipment, routes, etc to a private organization.
> 
> On the other hand, the government could retain ownership and responsibility for everything including purchasing of new equipment except the operation and fund that separately from providing the contractor with a fixed fee for running everything. That could produce different results and get more bi-partisan support albeit would require the government to closely monitor things to insure a chance of success. There are successful cases of something like e.g. our National Park lodging and amenities are run privately but owned by the government.
> 
> I am only suggesting that there are other possible alternatives to selling to a private for-profit company outright and not saying it WOULD be better than what we have but as of now, Amtrak seems to have no more interest in what their customers want than the worst of the private companies and apparently are not answerable to those who are actually paying the bill - the taxpayers.


That is certainly one option. But even just focusing on operating expenses, I still don't think any or enough current routes are profitable enough to attract a company willing to take on one or more "other" routes (without degrading service even more as has been previously pointed out and which is what started this conversation).


----------



## jiml

jruff001 said:


> Yep, which (and you probably know this, but for the benefit who might not), didn't work and has been ended.


Well aware, but the mandatory routes didn't go away - just the privatization!


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> Yep, which (and you probably know this, but for the benefit who might not), didn't work and has been ended.


Train operation by private TOCs is not completely ending in Britain. Only how the entire thing is managed as far as letting contracts and terms of contracts goes is changing. So of the TOCs are even companies entirely owned by the government, but operating nominally "for profit", kind of like Amtrak. But the government in UK generally provides reliable subsidies for the term of the contract, unlike the unpredictable zoo that the US is.

This is why the unions and other supporters of nationalization are complaining loudly.

If you really want to learn about how things are moving from a very complex system to just a complex system, subscribe to reliable journals like Modern Railway and spend hours reading the detailed description of what is happening.


----------



## joelkfla

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Even having the discussion of this page is acknowledging Gardner and Flynn have won. They haven’t and they won’t. Buttigieg isn’t a complicit empty suit like Elaine Choi was. Biden may literally have the weight of the world on his shoulders but Amtrak’s cleaning of the house can be done in an afternoon.
> 
> As far as talk of no suitable replacements left in this day and age? Come on. Any competent public transportation official for operations along with a competent person from the hospitality industry whether that be hotel, dining and yes even an airline. They could even poach someone from Via for that matter.
> 
> I’m sure someone like Brian Rosenwald with recent knowledge of Amtrak would be happy to consult part time as well. The fact of the matter is people in all walks of life like trains and train travel. it would be a personally rewarding job for the right set of people. Right now we just have bean counters in charge with no skin or interest in the game or train travel. These guys we have don’t even ride the trains they manage.


How do the Amtrak CEO & President get appointed? Is it a U.S. presidential appointment with congressional approval, or is by the BOD, or something else?

I see that Board members are presidential nominees with congressional approval, but do they serve for a fixed term, or at the pleasure of the President? Does the Board have any say in approving new Board members, or the CEO & Amtrak President?


----------



## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> That is certainly one option. But even just focusing on operating expenses, I still don't think any or enough current routes are profitable enough to attract a company willing to take on one or more "other" routes (without degrading service even more as has been previously pointed out and which is what started this conversation).


I don't think you understood the concept that I mentioned. The contractor gets paid for operation, not based on whether the route is profitable but on performance and based on how many tickets are sold. So they make money even if few are sold but make more money if more are sold - a concept that Amtrak has never discovered. So if the cars get full, there is an incentive to add more cars. This is the opposite of what Amtrak did during the pandemic - adding cars to handle more passengers - cars which just sat idle. They did the same thing by leaving VL2 sleepers idle even before the pandemic.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> How do the Amtrak CEO & President get appointed? Is it a U.S. presidential appointment with congressional approval, or is by the BOD, or something else?


The CEO and President are appointed by the Board. POTUS has no direct say in it and cannot fire the CEO or President either, only the Board can, and it better be for a cause unless they want to be forced by some court to pay a large golden parachute.


> I see that Board members are presidential nominees with congressional approval, but do they serve for a fixed term,


Five year fixed term, extendable to serve until a replacement is appointed.


> or at the pleasure of the President?


No.


> Does the Board have any say in approving new Board members,


No. Not directly as a matter of statute. Of course anyone can go and bend anyone else's ears through back channel and have some influence on those that are statutorily responsible I suppose.


> or the CEO & Amtrak President?


Yes. It is their job to appoint those.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> Train operation by private TOCs is not completely ending in Britain. Only how the entire thing is managed as far as letting contracts and terms of contracts goes is changing. So of the TOCs are even companies entirely owned by the government, but operating nominally "for profit", kind of like Amtrak. But the government in UK generally provides reliable subsidies for the term of the contract, unlike the unpredictable zoo that the US is.
> 
> This is why the unions and other supporters of nationalization are complaining loudly.
> 
> If you really want to learn about how things are moving from a very complex system to just a complex system, subscribe to reliable journals like Modern Railway and spend hours reading the detailed description of what is happening.


Yes I am aware of what is going on in the UK (I used to live there and have kept up my interest). But the "new" UK model is nothing like what was being discussed here (at least as I understood it), having a for-profit company operate the "lucrative" routes in exchange for operating one or more other routes, presumably at its own financial risk. Apologies if I misunderstood.


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> Yes I am aware of what is going on in the UK (I used to live there and have kept up my interest). But the "new" UK model is nothing like what was being discussed here (at least as I understood it), having a for-profit company operate the "lucrative" routes in exchange for operating one or more other routes, presumably at its own financial risk. Apologies if I misunderstood.


Companies are still going to get the responsibility to operate in a certain area, which may contain some lucrative and some not so lucrative routes. I am not sure what has changed as far as that goes.


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> I don't think you understood the concept that I mentioned. The contractor gets paid for operation, not based on whether the route is profitable but on performance and based on how many tickets are sold. So they make money even if few are sold but make more money if more are sold - a concept that Amtrak has never discovered. So if the cars get full, there is an incentive to add more cars. This is the opposite of what Amtrak did during the pandemic - adding cars to handle more passengers - cars which just sat idle. They did the same thing by leaving VL2 sleepers idle even before the pandemic.


You are right, I missed that you said "fixed fee," sorry. But see my post immediately above, I thought we were talking about an operator taking over at its own financial risk.

Sounds like that would require even MORE of an operating subsidy if the current routes and level of services were kept intact.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Worse case could their contracts be bought out or have them forcefully pushed out the door for going against the Administrations and in effect our nations transportation goals? If I’m not mistaken all involved are making rather modest sums in the big picture. The highest paid would be Flynn at around 500,000, followed by Gardner and then a normally amount for Board members..

Obviously Buttigeg would have to get involved for it to come to this..




jis said:


> The CEO and President are appointed by the Board. POTUS has no direct say in it and cannot fire the CEO or President either, only the Board can, and it better be for a cause unless they want to be forced by some court to pay a large golden parachute.
> 
> Five year fixed term, extendable to serve until a replacement is appointed.
> 
> No.
> 
> No. Not directly as a matter of statute. Of course anyone can go and bend anyone else's ears through back channel and have some influence on those that are statutorily responsible I suppose.
> 
> Yes. It is their job to appoint those.


----------



## lordsigma

The only way the cross country LD trains would be profitable in a privatization setting would be if you ran them seasonally with as much capacity as possible during peak months and then suspended service altogether during slower months - basically making them tourist trains - but that would negate the point of why we fund the trains federally. And that would only work for the ones with big time views.


----------



## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> You are right, I missed that you said "fixed fee," sorry. But see my post immediately above, I thought we were talking about an operator taking over at its own financial risk.
> 
> Sounds like that would require even MORE of an operating subsidy if the current routes and level of services were kept intact.


Absolutely, IMHO. Given that Amtrak and a private OPERATOR (not owner) were equally efficient, one would expect more inefficiency in Amtrak but I think that would be more than offset by the need to pay for the profit.

The remaining costs would be the same if government owned or owned by Amtrak.

The only benefit IMHO is that it would be more palatable to those who want to "privatize" passenger service giving a wider base of support.


----------



## jis

jis said:


> Companies are still going to get the responsibility to operate in a certain area, which may contain some lucrative and some not so lucrative routes. I am not sure what has changed as far as that goes.











Great British Railways to provide ‘united, accountable leadership’ for the rail sector


UK: Replacing 'a quarter-century of fragmentation' with 'single, accountable national leadership' is at the core of the government's Williams-Shapps Plan for reform of the railways in Great Britain, with passenger services to be provided by private sector concessionaires under contract to a new...




www.railwaygazette.com


----------



## flitcraft

Thanks, jis, for your timely links to the current British government plan for their railway network. Moaning about British Rail was a sport in the UK as popular once as is moaning about Amtrak in the US, and I think that was one reason why the damn-the-torpedoes-full-speed-ahead privatization of the British railway system didn't raise more hackles at the time. My husbands relatives were probably typical in that regard, "Well, it can't get worse and it might be better." Sadly, they were wrong, and now the government is trying to put the 'system' back into their railway system. I wish them luck, and yes, I do miss British Rail myself...hope things get aligned better if and when we're ever permitted back in the country!


----------



## west point

Questions about the Amtrak Board of directors.
1. Who are they ?
2. Do each have rail experience or broad knowledge of passenger rail ?
3. How active are they with their dealings with Management ? What time is spent in studying Amtrak ? 
4. What is salary ?
5. How many other organizations does each work for by time spent ? 
6. Are they really interested in passenger satisfaction ?

If some BOD members might not meet the above requirements the best way to replace them is to offer 
them another government job and nominate persons who will put passengers first.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The CEO and President are appointed by the Board. POTUS has no direct say in it and cannot fire the CEO or President either, only the Board can, and it better be for a cause unless they want to be forced by some court to pay a large golden parachute.
> 
> Five year fixed term, extendable to serve until a replacement is appointed.
> 
> No.
> 
> No. Not directly as a matter of statute. Of course anyone can go and bend anyone else's ears through back channel and have some influence on those that are statutorily responsible I suppose.
> 
> Yes. It is their job to appoint those.


So it seems like it's really the Board members who determine the future direction of Amtrak, via their selection of the executives. If they're typical corporate board members, they're likely to be more interested in the bottom line than in service level or customer satisfaction.


----------



## toddinde

jruff001 said:


> What "competitor" is interested in taking over Amtrak?


None. The constant pipe dream of the conservative railroad buffs. The privately operated 20th Century Limited rides again providing a land cruise for wealthy retirees. Amtrak is needed transportation, and is a public service. Food needs to be quality but need not be opulent. There is nothing wrong with Amtrak that good management can’t fix.


----------



## Bostontoallpoints

toddinde said:


> None. The constant pipe dream of the conservative railroad buffs. The privately operated 20th Century Limited rides again providing a land cruise for wealthy retirees. Amtrak is needed transportation, and is a public service. Food needs to be quality but need not be opulent. There is nothing wrong with Amtrak that good management can’t fix.


Union Pacific and BNSF have the tracks, infrastructure, personel and most importantly the money if they wanted to get back into passenger rail. As long as they show no interest in running passenger trains then I can't see anyone else getting into the game. I am watching Brightline to see how it shakes out. I'm not against Amtrak or a nationalized railway. I don't want a land cruise type trains like The Canadian. Just want decent meals, service and an expanded network.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bostontoallpoints said:


> I don't want a land cruise type trains like The Canadian.



Canadian still serves as public transportation. When I rode the canadian I met many Canadians traveling for non-vacation reasons (work, school, moving, visiting family, etc.) just like on Amtrak.

Land cruise trains would be Rocky Mountaineer and the former American Orient Express. Even Iowa Pacific’s Pullman me and another passenger were traveling for work and would have been on the Amtrak train anyways that day.


----------



## Bostontoallpoints

crescent-zephyr said:


> Canadian still serves as public transportation. When I rode the canadian I met many Canadians traveling for non-vacation reasons (work, school, moving, visiting family, etc.) just like on Amtrak.
> 
> Land cruise trains would be Rocky Mountaineer and the former American Orient Express. Even Iowa Pacific’s Pullman me and another passenger were traveling for work and would have been on the Amtrak train anyways that day.


I have ridden the Canadian as well. It's very slow, expensive and does not provide daily service. The scenery is great, the service is excellent , the accomadations are top notch and the food is excellent. It's not quite the Rocky Moantaineer but you can't deny that the Canadian is more a land cruise when compared to the Zephyr and Chief. Yes, the Canadian does have coach seats and a cafe but the sleeper part of the train is a land cruise.


----------



## Cal

[QUOTE="Bostontoallpoints, post: 896659, member: 14865"
Just want decent meals, service and an expanded network.
[/QUOTE]
I could live with the first two.

Again, it's a shame that we're even dreaming of decent food..


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bostontoallpoints said:


> Yes, the Canadian does have coach seats and a cafe but the sleeper part of the train is a land cruise.



I still disagree. The college students I dined with had a section - they were returning to school after visiting family over their winter break. I did eat dinner with a Canadian family traveling in coach, but I’m pretty sure everyone else I had a conversation with was in the sleepers.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> I still disagree. The college students I dined with had a section - they were returning to school after visiting family over their winter break. I did eat dinner with a Canadian family traveling in coach, but I’m pretty sure everyone else I had a conversation with was in the sleepers.


Regrettably those days are long gone and unlikely to return. All sleeping accommodation on the Canadian (and Hudson Bay for that matter*) during peak and shoulder seasons is pretty much unaffordable. You can safely use the comparison with Business/First Class air being applied in another thread. As a land cruise for those with the resources it's great and an average person could consider it off-peak, as I do every year. The Ocean was the last great bargain in Canadian long distance trains and it does provide a transportation service to several mid-points. Hopefully it returns in the form and price range it was pre-Covid. 

*The Hudson Bay train does provide an essential transportation link, which is why it has continued through most of the pandemic. Sleeping accommodation, which is currently suspended, had gotten prohibitively expensive for service not on-par with the Canadian.


----------



## zephyr17

How they are going to make the case that the Canadian is an essential service when they didn't run it at all for well over 6 months and then didn't run it in Northern Ontario where there are places with NO other transportation until this month eludes me. How essential can it be when you just drop it?

At least Amtrak retained service through the whole pandemic, even if it wasn't daily. And most places on Amtrak are at least reachable by road, which you can't say about a lot of places it served in northern Ontario (looking at you, Ottermere).

VIA ought to have a lot of explaining to do to Transport Canada. If Amtrak did that, those trains would be as dead as the Sunset East.


----------



## west point

What would be the ideal Board of Directors member. He would spend 10 hours a day 6 days a week studying every facet of Amtrak operations. From reservations, planning , maintenance, on rail operations, stations etc. . Will there be such a person ? Highly doubtful but this poster if asked would do it for a couple years.


----------



## Maverickstation

Lets get back to the topic please, AMTRAK DINING.

As we wait to see just what Traditional Dining service Amtrak is planning, and on which trains, we don't have to look beyond the United Sates for an example of a well planned, consistent, and sustainable Dining Car service. 

Just look north to Alaska, where using outside caterers (final prep, warm, up and plating on board) they provide a well rounded menu.



https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/AKRR-2020-Denali-Menu.pdf



Ken


----------



## railiner

Since you mentioned, non-Amtrak menu's (Alaska)....how about these? (Click on each meal)





__





alaska-train-dining — Wilderness Express Rail







www.wildernessexpressrail.com


----------



## jiml

Maverickstation said:


> Lets get back to the topic please, AMTRAK DINING.
> 
> As we wait to see just what Traditional Dining service Amtrak is planning, and on which trains, we don't have to look beyond the United Sates for an example of a well planned, consistent, and sustainable Dining Car service.
> 
> Just look north to Alaska, where using outside caterers (final prep, warm, up and plating on board) they provide a well rounded menu.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/AKRR-2020-Denali-Menu.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Ken


Based on several reviews I believe that's just the "off-peak" winter menu too. Their peak season choices were more plentiful and varied.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Since you mentioned, non-Amtrak menu's (Alaska)....how about these? (Click on each meal)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alaska-train-dining — Wilderness Express Rail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wildernessexpressrail.com



I appreciate you posting this about the Wilderness Express. As many times as I have been to Alaska, I was unaware of this option.


----------



## zephyr17

I rode the Alaska Railroad back in the mid-80s and the diners were outsourced even then.

And quite good.

They've been doing it a long time and are really good at it. Perhaps Amtrak should hire some people from Alaska's passenger services department.


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> I appreciate you posting this about the Wilderness Express. As many times as I have been to Alaska, I was unaware of this option.


Besides the Alaska RR diners, and Wilderness Express diners, the train also carries Princess Cruises (formerly “Midnight Sun Express” cars) with their own diners. And if that isn’t enough choices, Holland America Line operates their own “McKinley Explorer”, as a separate train with its own diners…


----------



## Ferroequinologist

jruff001 said:


> Great find, and thanks for sharing!
> 
> But the business model that would support a waiter deboning fresh trout nightly on a method of transportation that takes three days to get from Chicago to San Francisco has been dead for what, like 60 years now? So forgive me if I am taking your last sentence the wrong way, but are you really blaming Amtrak for that? Or do you think that simply changing Amtrak management would make that return in any sustainable way?
> 
> IMO, I do indeed thank Amtrak for keeping some semblance of transcon rail travel alive all this time, given all the challenges.



Two corrections: It was the steward who was deboning the fish. I mistakenly said a waiter. Also it took two days, not three, from Chicago to San Francisco. 

I was joking about Amtrak. I don't expect a return to the five star dining seen on the CZ video. Amtrak's clientele is not the same. You will only find that sort of white glove service at the most expensive restaurants - Four Seasons Hotels for example. It's a niche market and Amtrak is not part of it. Even if Amtrak wanted to restore that sort of service most Amtrak riders would not want it. What Amtrak needs to do is simple: significantly upgrade the quality of food being served on its LD trains. I'd suggest improving the cafe car quality and continuing with room service but with much better and healthier food.


----------



## Palmetto

VIA can do a nice job on their _Ocean _as well. Or as I've mentioned before, some items along the Acela first class line.


----------



## lordsigma

Maverickstation said:


> Lets get back to the topic please, AMTRAK DINING.
> 
> As we wait to see just what Traditional Dining service Amtrak is planning, and on which trains, we don't have to look beyond the United Sates for an example of a well planned, consistent, and sustainable Dining Car service.
> 
> Just look north to Alaska, where using outside caterers (final prep, warm, up and plating on board) they provide a well rounded menu.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/AKRR-2020-Denali-Menu.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Ken


The which trains is sounding like Zephyr, Builder, SWC, Sunset, and Coast Starlight.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Besides the Alaska RR diners, and Wilderness Express diners, the train also carries Princess Cruises (formerly “Midnight Sun Express” cars) with their own diners. And if that isn’t enough choices, Holland America Line operates their own “McKinley Explorer”, as a separate train with its own diners…



The Princess Cruises and HAL train operations, I am familiar with those.


----------



## River in Sight

lordsigma said:


> NEC Corridor cafe still bare bones at least as of my last trip a little more than a week ago...



Are people allowed to sit at the tables in the cafe car? Taking my first NER ride in a while this Thursday and curious if I will be able to sit in the cafe.


----------



## tommylicious

If you're on a train for more than, say, 8 hours, which by definition will be longer than a flight + transfers to a similar destination, awful food and grumpy service should NOT be the norm. Personally, neither I nor my family have taken an Amtrak trip since the food service was deprecated so badly, and we won't until it's back to a better level. Pretty much every Amtrak vlog since the food deprecation has remarked negatively on the food.


----------



## neroden

west point said:


> What would be the ideal Board of Directors member. He would spend 10 hours a day 6 days a week studying every facet of Amtrak operations. From reservations, planning , maintenance, on rail operations, stations etc. . Will there be such a person ? Highly doubtful but this poster if asked would do it for a couple years.



I'll volunteer. I couldn't possibly do worse than Amtrak's current Board of Directors. I am truly disgusted. I mean, if they could get some people with experience at actual functioning railroads, or even NJ Transit, that would probably be better, but I could definitely do better than the current clownshow of ignorance and incompetence.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

River in Sight said:


> Are people allowed to sit at the tables in the cafe car? Taking my first NER ride in a while this Thursday and curious if I will be able to sit in the cafe.



I was on a NER from ALX to TRE on May 18 and went to get my free coffee (I was in BC), and it was still crew only—no passenger seating in the cafe car, so I would guess the same setup for your trip.

By the way, the crew was sitting on both sides of the cafe car and seemed to have settled in quite nicely to having the whole place to themselves with no pesky passengers.


----------



## Sidney

On The TE last week the crew took up the limited space in the cafe portion of the diner car. I guess if you wanted to linger in the dining car after eating,you could,providing other people weren't eating. Coach passengers could only sit at their seats being there is no SSL car. If you are on it for the full duration that's a long ride with no place to go for diversion.


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> By the way, the crew was sitting on both sides of the cafe car and seemed to have settled in quite nicely to having the whole place to themselves with no pesky passengers.


Just busy infecting each other?


----------



## dogbert617

Sidney said:


> On The TE last week the crew took up the limited space in the cafe portion of the diner car. I guess if you wanted to linger in the dining car after eating,you could,providing other people weren't eating. Coach passengers could only sit at their seats being there is no SSL car. If you are on it for the full duration that's a long ride with no place to go for diversion.



It's really sad Amtrak removed the sightseer lounge car, from both the *Texas Eagle and Capitol Limited trains. Anyone know if City of New Orleans still has a sightseer lounge car? I wish Virtual Railfan would set up at least one camera(maybe in Memphis? but it'd probably work in another location along this route too), somewhere along the CONO route.

*- I am aware if you ride west of San Antonio, that the combined Eagle/Sunset do have access to the sightseer lounge from Sunset Ltd's consist. But I really wish such a lounge car, could regularly be added back to the Eagle's consist again.


----------



## Cal

dogbert617 said:


> It's really sad Amtrak removed the sightseer lounge car, from both the *Texas Eagle and Capitol Limited trains. Anyone know if City of New Orleans still has a sightseer lounge car? I wish Virtual Railfan would set up at least one camera(maybe in Memphis? but it'd probably work in another location along this route too), somewhere along the CONO route.
> 
> *- I am aware if you ride west of San Antonio, that the combined Eagle/Sunset do have access to the sightseer lounge from Sunset Ltd's consist. But I really wish such a lounge car, could regularly be added back to the Eagle's consist again.


CONO never lost the SSL, or if it did, it was brief.


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> CONO never lost the SSL, or if it did, it was brief.


An Amtrak official stated to RPA the CONO kept its SSL because of CN wheel count requirements.

Customer service had nothing to do with it


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> An Amtrak official stated to RPA the CONO kept its SSL because of CN wheel count requirements.
> 
> Customer service had nothing to do with it


CN requirements are pretty bizarre. Apparently just any seven cars do not allow the train to operate at 79mph in certain areas. It has to be 7 Superliners. If CN did not force the issue, CONO would have landed up with a few more baggage cars probably - or Viewliner Diners perhaps  Such are the clever ways of Amtrak to undermine itself at every opportunity 

Actually there is some logic to this. Superliners being cars with heavier axle load, are slightly better at making electrical connection with the rails through its wheels to tickle the fancy of the finicky CN detectors.


----------



## lordsigma

River in Sight said:


> Are people allowed to sit at the tables in the cafe car? Taking my first NER ride in a while this Thursday and curious if I will be able to sit in the cafe.


You couldn't when I went but it's sounding like you can now - every other table. Still very limited menu in the NER and Acela cafes FYI.


----------



## zephyr17

Only if every other table isn't occupied by the crew


----------



## jloewen

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I was on a NER from ALX to TRE on May 18 and went to get my free coffee (I was in BC), and it was still crew only—no passenger seating in the cafe car, so I would guess the same setup for your trip.
> 
> By the way, the crew was sitting on both sides of the cafe car and seemed to have settled in quite nicely to having the whole place to themselves with no pesky passengers.


My biggest single peeve with Amtrak. Fixable at a cost of $0. Increases revenue because, as Starbucks etc. knows, people sitting on premises buy more, compared to empty seats. Doesn't symbolize bad attitude, which in turn causes folks actually to HAVE bad attitudes.


----------



## lizpackslight

Sleepers are allegedly sold out for my trip next week on the CONO. And the leg of my trip on the Crescent is at 80% in coach. Seems like it is time to open up seating in the cafe. I know, I know, eating with masks off, etc. But people eat with masks off in coach, too.


----------



## Railspike

I saw this comment the other day and wondered the same.......
Amtrak's Covid stimulus funds from Congress came with a condition to restore service levels on the national network to trains as they were prior to cutbacks. Traditional Dining and SSLs were all part of the service levels prior to the Covid cutbacks. Therefore, would the failure to restore these items be considered a violation of the Congressional order?

I realize that Amtrak says Traditional Dining is returning June 30th and SSLs will eventually return to all LD trains. We'll have to wait to see.


----------



## Nick Farr

Railspike said:


> Amtrak's Covid stimulus funds from Congress came with a condition to restore service levels on the national network to trains as they were prior to cutbacks. Traditional Dining and SSLs were all part of the service levels prior to the Covid cutbacks. Therefore, would the failure to restore these items be considered a violation of the Congressional order?



Service levels under the law apply primarily to scheduling: Daily service as opposed to 3x/week, etc.

There isn't a clear-cut way to quantify the on-board amenities. There's no federal standard I know of for Traditional Dining vs Flex Dining, etc.


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> Service levels under the law apply primarily to scheduling: Daily service as opposed to 3x/week, etc.
> 
> There isn't a clear-cut way to quantify the on-board amenities. There's no federal standard I know of for Traditional Dining vs Flex Dining, etc.


Thanks for pointing this out. I tried to find the appropriate requirements of the law (and any related orders of associated government agencies like FRA, STB...) but cannot. Can you post for us the specifics or reference the documents? I, for one, would like to see that information.


----------



## Eric in East County

If traditional dining resumes on June 30th, what about long-distance trains that depart on June 29th? Will they have flex dining the first night and traditional dining the next?

Eric & Pat


----------



## Cal

Eric in East County said:


> If traditional dining resumes on June 30th, what about long-distance trains that depart on June 29th? Will they have flex dining the first night and traditional dining the next?
> 
> Eric & Pat


Good question. I guess we will need to wait and find out


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Thanks for pointing this out. I tried to find the appropriate requirements of the law (and any related orders of associated government agencies like FRA, STB...) but cannot. Can you post for us the specifics or reference the documents? I, for one, would like to see that information.


The exact language passed in HR1319 American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, is in Section 7101(c) which reads:



> c) Long-distance service restoration and employee recalls.—Not less than $165,926,000 of the aggregate amounts made available under subsections (a) and (b) shall be for use by the National Railroad Passenger Corporation to—
> 
> (1) *restore*, not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, *the frequency of rail service on long-distance routes* (as defined in section 24102 of title 49, United States Code) that the National Railroad Passenger Corporation reduced the frequency of on or after July 1, 2020, and continue to operate such service at such frequency; and
> 
> (2)* recall and manage employees furloughed on or after October 1, 2020*, as a result of efforts to prevent, prepare for, and respond to coronavirus.



There is no specific mention of food or any other soft service product. However, it would appear that it is a relatively safe assumption that the recall from furlough is both for restoring service frequency and for restoring soft products, but it is apparently left entirely at Amtrak management's discretion as to the form of the restoration of soft service products to be carried out by furloughed employees being recalled. Afterall it makes no sense to recall a bunch of people and then have them sit around doing nothing.

I should hasten to add that it is possible that food service restoration is specifically mentioned in some other act that I have not found yet. All that I have found is statements of intent by Amtrak management on the subject.



Cal said:


> Good question. I guess we will need to wait and find out


I think it is safe to assume that full service will become available only on trains departing on some designated date (which may be earlier than the announced service restoration date by a day or two, or it may not) and after that. Trains that departed from the origin before the designated date will most likely have the previous service.


----------



## zephyr17

Eric in East County said:


> If traditional dining resumes on June 30th, what about long-distance trains that depart on June 29th? Will they have flex dining the first night and traditional dining the next?
> 
> Eric & Pat


Almost certainly not. Trains are stocked at their point of origin. Amtrak has almost no commissaries at intermediate points. Whatever service is offered initially is what it will be for the duration of the trip.

In fact, since flex and traditional have different staffing needs, it is entirely possible that the train will have to return to its "home" crewbase and will not have traditional dining until its next departure from the "home" crewbase.

As an example, the Southwest Chief's OBS crew is based in Los Angeles. They go with that consist to Chicago and back, a 6 day round trip. If the first day of traditional dining service out of LA is June 30th, likely the first day of traditional dining out of Chicago would be July 3rd when that first LA crew starts back.

My guess is they'll start reintroducing traditional dining a couple days early so all trains have it for their June 30th or July 1st departures.


----------



## jis

While I don't agree with many of the recommendations proffered by the Amtrak OIG in the following document, the document does provide a plethora of information that covers many areas that we have speculated about here, including how money is transferred to the F&B account from the transport account for LD trains and Acelas for complementary food service. Many other nuggets of useful information. It is a long and tedious read though, but at least can help in discussions based on recorded facts instead of speculations and wishful thinking...

Food and Beverage Service Amtrak OIG Report 2014 (PDF)


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> While I don't agree with many of the recommendations proffered by the Amtrak OIG in the following document, the document does provide a plethora of information that covers many areas that we have speculated about here, including how money is transferred to the F&B account from the transport account for LD trains and Acelas for complementary food service. Many other nuggets of useful information. It is a long and tedious read though, but at least can help in discussions based on recorded facts instead of speculations and wishful thinking...
> 
> Food and Beverage Service Amtrak OIG Report 2014 (PDF)


Interesting read; thanks for posting!

One of the main problems is really highlighted with the tables on pages 3 and 4: Total F&B revenue didn't even cover just the onboard labor costs of providing LD food service, let alone the costs of equipment and the food itself. And that was after several years of efforts to reduce F&B losses.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

With benefits Amtrak is paying every F&B employee an average of $41 per hour.


----------



## cocojacoby

If the servers where being paid $41 per hour plus tips, you would think they would have had much better attitudes. If you are making that kind of money you could be a bit friendlier.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

“Amtrak Is Having a Flash Sale on Vacation Packages Across the U.S.” is the title of an online “article” in Travel and Leisure.

I put quotes around “article,” because it looks like there was zilch research or fact-checking put into it. It looks like someone found a press release and reworded it to try to sound like a real article.

The person who wrote it says, “The menus may also be better than you remember.”

She then mentions the steak for dinner and a made-to-order omelet or Amtrak’s signature French toast for breakfast.

Huh?

This is either real information and Amtrak expects to have all those wonderful meals back by the time their advertised sale goes into effect. Or it’s a great wishful thinking press release.

If anyone can add a link to the article here, I’d be grateful. My editing background lets me see sloppy writing a mile off, but my tech skills never caught up, unfortunately, and I don’t see a way to link the article.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> With benefits Amtrak is paying every F&B employee an average of $41 per hour.


And that was in 2012!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Mystic River Dragon said:


> “Amtrak Is Having a Flash Sale on Vacation Packages Across the U.S.” is the title of an online “article” in Travel and Leisure.











Amtrak Is Having a Flash Sale on Vacation Packages Across the U.S.


Amtrak is celebrating its 50th anniversary with discounts on vacation packages to Glacier National Park, the Grand Canyon, and more.




www.travelandleisure.com


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Amtrak Is Having a Flash Sale on Vacation Packages Across the U.S.
> 
> 
> Amtrak is celebrating its 50th anniversary with discounts on vacation packages to Glacier National Park, the Grand Canyon, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.travelandleisure.com



That’s it! Thank you!

The last paragraph, right above the blurb about the writer, is the one about the food (for anyone who wants to go right there and skip the rest of the fluff).


----------



## Way2Kewl

$41 should only be paid to the best of attitudes. 
Great if they promoted a rating/feedback reward system that actually held bad apples accountable and rewarded those Amtrak employees we meet that go up and above.

Seems the folks that work for Amtrak report the following to Glassdoor
Locomotive Engineer $46/hr
Railroad Conductor $30/hr
Lead Service Attendant $28/hr
Train Attendant $24/hr
(https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Amtrak-Hourly-Pay-E2912.htm)

The article said the total REVENUE was calculated by using the FULL menu prices for Sleeper passengers. A great number of folks get the Land and Sea and it's $39. So they'd need double the total revenue to break even? Wow.


----------



## me_little_me

> To contribute to the cost of meals included in the ticket price, Amtrak transfers a portion of revenue from sleeper class and Acela first class tickets to the food and beverage account, according to officials from Finance and customer service. For sleeper class tickets, the amount transferred is based on the menu price of actual meals consumed by sleeper passengers on long distance routes.


It does NOT say that Amtrak transferred amount EQUALS the cost of the meals but is based upon it so we still don't know how much they put towards the cost.


> In addition, Amtrak lacks complete, accurate, and consistent cost and revenue data to establish profit and loss accountability for its food and beverage service by business lines. Having this information is also essential to Amtrak’s successful implementation of its strategic plan to manage by business lines.


I read this as two words: MANAGEMENT INCOMPETENCE. In fact the whole document reeks of it. And this is just the food cost issue, not the operations of the trains or other parts of Amtrak's business.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> I think it is safe to assume that full service will become available only on trains departing on some designated date (whihc may be earlier than the announced service restoration date by a day or two, or it may not) and after that. Trains that departed from the origin before the designated date will most likely have the previous service.


It's similar to the transcontinental trains that departed their origins on 30 April 1971...the last of them did not end private railroad operation of passenger trains until 2 May 1971, 2 days later, and 2 days into the Amtrak era....


----------



## Trogdor

Way2Kewl said:


> $41 should only be paid to the best of attitudes.
> Great if they promoted a rating/feedback reward system that actually held bad apples accountable and rewarded those Amtrak employees we meet that go up and above.
> 
> Seems the folks that work for Amtrak report the following to Glassdoor
> Locomotive Engineer $46/hr
> Railroad Conductor $30/hr
> Lead Service Attendant $28/hr
> Train Attendant $24/hr



The $41 figure is with benefits and other employment costs. In many industries (at least, those that actually make an attempt at paying their employees a living wage & benefits), the non-wage employment costs (insurance, retirement benefits, payroll taxes, etc.) can be up to 50% of the wage, so for a $24-28/hr wage, $41/hr seems within the realm of reason.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Trogdor said:


> The $41 figure is with benefits and other employment costs. In many industries (at least, those that actually make an attempt at paying their employees a living wage & benefits), the non-wage employment costs (insurance, retirement benefits, payroll taxes, etc.) can be up to 50% of the wage, so for a $24-28/hr wage, $41/hr seems within the realm of reason.



Direct comparisons in the report to food service employees on the Alaska Railroad, Rocky Mountaineer, and the Downeaster show that $41/ an hour is not at all reasonable.


----------



## Trogdor

crescent-zephyr said:


> Direct comparisons in the report to food service employees on the Alaska Railroad, Rocky Mountaineer, and the Downeaster show that $41/ an hour is not at all reasonable.





> According to Downeaster and Alaska Railroad officials, hourly labor rates for contracted staff, including servers and chefs, on those two railroads ranged from $7.75 to $13.00, with no employee benefits. In FY 2012, hourly labor rates for contracted chefs on the Rocky Mountaineer averaged $14.70, including limited benefits.



In other words, poverty wages and little-to-no benefits. On a job that requires you to be away from home for up to a week at a time (and thus eliminating the possibility of having a second job elsewhere).

So...yes, $41/hr is absolutely reasonable. What’s not reasonable is the peanuts these other companies are paying.

The other thing the report notes is that Amtrak employees are subject to railroad retirement, whereas I gather the other “contracted” employees are not, further widening the disparity (RRB is more expensive than social security, but the benefits are greater).


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Direct comparisons in the report to food service employees on the Alaska Railroad, Rocky Mountaineer, and the Downeaster show that $41/ an hour is not at all reasonable.


Note the $41/hr figure includes wages AND great benefits. In 2012.

Are you saying that $10/hr with no benefits is "reasonable"? Would that attract good quality employees who are expected to spend six nights away from home each trip, year round?

Anyway, let's keep in mind this report was talking about *2012* wage & benefit rates.


----------



## me_little_me

I don't begrudge anyone making $41/hr including benefits even in 2012. I do begrudge them for being tipped employees. The Alaska Ferry (owned and operated by the state) prohibits tipping of its onboard employees.

Now I realize that that was claimed to be the AVERAGE and some are probably making less but what does that say for the maximum they get? We don't know the minimum or maximum.

I'm looking for a volunteer (survival not guaranteed) to ask one of the Amtrak dining employees what the average pay is for someone in their position. Benefits can be calculated for them later. Please text the info immediately in case your body is found along the track.


----------



## jruff001

It is probably the highest compensated waiter job on the planet.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Would that attract good quality employees who are expected to spend six nights away from home each trip, year round?



Does the Downeaster, Alaska RR, and Rocky Mountaineer have poor quality employees?


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does the Downeaster, Alaska RR, and Rocky Mountaineer have poor quality employees?


Couldn't really be any worse than a lot of Amtrak's dining car waitstaff.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does the Downeaster, Alaska RR, and Rocky Mountaineer have poor quality employees?


Maybe you missed the "six days (I mistakenly said "nights") away from home each trip, year round" part of my post?

What kind of business are you running these days where you can attract good employees for $10/hr with no benefits?


----------



## jruff001

zephyr17 said:


> Couldn't really be any worse than a lot of Amtrak's dining car waitstaff.


I agree, sadly. A lot of Amtrak's OBS employees don't know how good they have it, given their compensation and a lot of their attitudes. (Not to ignore the fact that there are some gems out there who do a great job.)


----------



## flitcraft

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does the Downeaster, Alaska RR, and Rocky Mountaineer have poor quality employees?


Poor quality? I couldn't say, not having experienced these lines. But definitely poor, at those quoted wage-rates. And triple shame on the Rocky Mountaineer--charging exorbitant prices and paying their staff starvation wages.


----------



## River in Sight

lordsigma said:


> You couldn't when I went but it's sounding like you can now - every other table.



just to answer my own question, every other table was indeed open for dining. Two tables were taken by the crew but we had no trouble finding one. Of course, a freight train derailed in front of us just south of RVR so we had to take an Uber the rest of the way to VA Beach.


----------



## lordsigma

I watched an RPA webinar yesterday on the on board experience. I’m cautiously optimistic that Amtrak has gotten the point on the food service complaints. The messaging RPA is getting from Amtrak on the return of traditional dining sounds pretty good with even talk of consideration of going back to non disposable dishware. It also sounds like they are willing to revisit and make changes to the flexible dining format - though it sounds like they want to get traditional dining going and get the bugs out on these five trains first.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I watched an RPA webinar yesterday on the on board experience. I’m cautiously optimistic that Amtrak has gotten the point on the food service complaints. The messaging RPA is getting from Amtrak on the return of traditional dining sounds pretty good with even talk of consideration of going back to non disposable dishware. It also sounds like they are willing to revisit and make changes to the flexible dining format - though it sounds like they want to get traditional dining going and get the bugs out on these five trains first.


I hope you are right. I mean if they are considering China, the meals surely are going to be better.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Maybe you missed the "six days (I mistakenly said "nights") away from home each trip, year round" part of my post?
> 
> What kind of business are you running these days where you can attract good employees for $10/hr with no benefits?



No I didn’t miss it. Rocky Mountaineer would be a 4-5 day turn. Alaska would be 2. 

Besides... the LSA on the sunset isn’t getting paid more than the lsa on the Surfliner that is home every night. Actually the lsa on the Surfliner is probably getting more cause they have seniority and bid on the easier job.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> No I didn’t miss it. Rocky Mountaineer would be a 4-5 day turn. Alaska would be 2.


And those are all year round, full time jobs? 

I am sure you could get a few foamers to work a few specialty trains at those wages and schedules, but good luck trying to find a full, dependable staff.



> Besides... the LSA on the sunset isn’t getting paid more than the lsa on the Surfliner that is home every night. Actually the lsa on the Surfliner is probably getting more cause they have seniority and bid on the easier job.


Sorry, not sure what point you are trying to make here. Some people like to be home every night; some would not mind being out for a week in exchange for being home for a week.

But I am still curious about your recruiting results when you are offering $10/hr with no benefits. Can the applicants pass a pre-employment drug screen? Will they be willing to report to work at odd hours and are they fine with being away from home for up to six days, including major holidays?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> And those are all year round, full time jobs?



According to the report... Amtrak has too many year round full time f&b employees. The Rocky Mountaineer has a lengthy season, many f&b employees probably work the same number of days in a year that a full time Amtrak lsa works. 



jruff001 said:


> I am sure you could get a few foamers



Oh back to the name calling I see. 



jruff001 said:


> But I am still curious about your recruiting results when you are offering $10/hr with no benefits. Can the applicants pass a pre-employment drug screen? Will they be willing to report to work at odd hours and are they fine with being away from home for up to six days, including major holidays?



You’re acting like drug tests, odd hours, and working on holidays is somehow unique to Amtrak?


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> According to the report... Amtrak has too many year round full time f&b employees.


Agreed.



> The Rocky Mountaineer has a lengthy season, many f&b employees probably work the same number of days in a year that a full time Amtrak lsa works.


Disagreed. Cite please?



> Oh back to the name calling I see.


Lame. I already admitted to being a foamer. Wear it with pride!



> You’re acting like drug tests, odd hours, and working on holidays is somehow unique to Amtrak?


Quite the opposite. Lots of companies right now are looking for those attributes, mine included. But $10/hr with no benefits is not gonna cut it. We are offering thousands of dollars in sign-on bonuses and near-six-figure salaries for those who are willing to be away from home for several days at a time. Of course we would not tolerate the rudeness towards customers some Amtrak employees exhibit.


----------



## jiml

flitcraft said:


> Poor quality? I couldn't say, not having experienced these lines. But definitely poor, at those quoted wage-rates. And triple shame on the Rocky Mountaineer--charging exorbitant prices and paying their staff starvation wages.


Other than a few full-time trainers/"co-ordinators", I believe the bulk of the RM summer service staff are college students, eager for work and travel. Most are looking for cash as opposed to a career. That is why off-season trips vary from infrequent to non-existent - even pre-Covid. The model has more similarity with cruise ships than other railroads.


----------



## me_little_me

When looking at pay rates, you also have to look at whether the other services allow tipping and how much the employees actually make in total. The IG report did not indicate the former much less the latter.


----------



## JRR

pennyk said:


> I think I recall sitting at a table on the Meteor (I think) and watching her do that.


Yep! Unfortunately, our train is now the always late Crescent which not stops in Greenville in the middle of the night. The new schedule is most inconvenient for us.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> The model has more similarity with cruise ships than other railroads.



You’ll have to tell Amtrak that. They were the ones that included them in the report for direct comparison.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> You’ll have to tell Amtrak that. They were the ones that included them in the report for direct comparison.


Agreed. Why they'd compare themselves with a seasonal tourist service is puzzling to say the least.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Agreed. Why they'd compare themselves with a seasonal tourist service is puzzling to say the least.



Because they operate multi-day trains, on a mainline railroad, with food & beverage service?

They operate April-October.


----------



## Trogdor

Amtrak OIG ≠ Amtrak. The report is an Amtrak OIG report, not a report from Amtrak management.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Disagreed. Cite please?



It’s just math. Amtrak f&b on the western trains get like 6 days on and then 6 days off. I figure some end up working like 150 days a year. If you work a season on the Rocky Mountaineer from April-October you could easily get in 150 days. 

Now some Amtrak f&b will pick up extras and some Rocky Mountaineer staff maybe only work 1 trip a week or something I don’t know - I was just saying it could be pretty close.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Because they operate multi-day trains, on a mainline railroad, with food & beverage service?
> 
> They operate April-October.


Rocky Mountaineer does not operate any multi-day trains that I'm aware of. They operate several one-day trains that happen to connect points on a route. The best Amtrak parallel would be if the Coast Starlight ran from Seattle to south Oregon one day, stopped for the night, continued to the Bay area the next day, stopped for the night, then finished up in L.A. on the third day.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Rocky Mountaineer does not operate any multi-day trains that I'm aware of. They operate several one-day trains that happen to connect points on a route. The best Amtrak parallel would be if the Coast Starlight ran from Seattle to south Oregon one day, stopped for the night, continued to the Bay area the next day, stopped for the night, then finished up in L.A. on the third day.



The train consist and staff continue on correct? We are talking about staffing f&b here.


----------



## railiner

I am not sure about the status of ARR on board service staff. The operating crew are certainly 'railroad' employees, subject to FRA, RRB, and RR union rules.
Not even sure if the obs staff even is directly employed by the ARR, or are outsourced.... ARR does operate all year round, with a reduced schedule.

The entire staff on the privately owned cars carried by ARR are definitely not railroad employees, nor union. The ones working the Princess and Holland-America cars do get benefits from their employer, including a free or reduced rate cruise.


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> The train consist and staff continue on correct? We are talking about staffing f&b here.


Yes, but their duty hours are probably not as long because the train is not rolling 24 hours a day. Amtrak crews are on duty 6 am to 10 pm or later on the road.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The train consist and staff continue on correct? We are talking about staffing f&b here.


The consist yes, the crew not so much. Their crew base was in Kamloops, so OBS would work to either extremity (Vancouver or Calgary) then return on the next service. I believe the service manager/cruise director would be the only common staff passengers would see for an entire trip. Since they haven't been operating for some time, who knows how it will work on resumption.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> The consist yes, the crew not so much. Their crew base was in Kamloops, so OBS would work to either extremity (Vancouver or Calgary) then return on the next service. I believe the service manager/cruise director would be the only common staff passengers would see for an entire trip. Since they haven't been operating for some time, who knows how it will work on resumption.


Or what they're doing for the Colorado Rockies trip. Kamloops isn't exactly feasible as a crew base


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> The consist yes, the crew not so much. Their crew base was in Kamloops, so OBS would work to either extremity (Vancouver or Calgary) then return on the next service. I believe the service manager/cruise director would be the only common staff passengers would see for an entire trip. Since they haven't been operating for some time, who knows how it will work on resumption.



Oh interesting. I always thought the crew stayed with the same group of passengers throughout.

I wonder where the crew base will be for the Mountaineer here in the states.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I am not sure about the status of ARR on board service staff. The operating crew are certainly 'railroad' employees, subject to FRA, RRB, and RR union rules.
> Not even sure if the obs staff even is directly employed by the ARR, or are outsourced.... ARR does operate all year round, with a reduced schedule.


In the winter I think there is ony one round trip per week that has OBS. I am not sure that the mid week Hurricane Turns even have any OBS. The food service staff I believe is employed by the food service contractor.The main point though is, it is not even remotely comparable to any Amtrak service.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh interesting. I always thought the crew stayed with the same group of passengers throughout.
> 
> I wonder where the crew base will be for the Mountaineer here in the states.


If the same model as for the Canadian service is used, the most suitable site for the crew base would be Glenwood Springs.


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> In the winter I think there is ony one round trip per week that has OBS. I am not sure that the mid week Hurricane Turns even have any OBS. The food service staff I believe is employed by the food service contractor.The main point though is, it is not even remotely comparable to any Amtrak service.
> 
> 
> If the same model as for the Canadian service is used, the most suitable site for the crew base would be Glenwood Springs.


Possibly Grand Junction like the RGZ was for servicing and commissary although the OBS themselves were Denver based.

Kamloops is Rocky Mountaineer base of operations for everything. Their maintenance base is there north of town, just north of the big CN yard, an impressive sight from Highway 5. I don't think they'll set up anything like that for their Colorado Rockies one off. That is partly because I think it is likely a one season thing. They mainly set it up because their main clientele is American and cannot get over the border this year and they want to generate at least some revenue this year. I don't think they are going to invest in the kind of infrastructure they have in Kamloops for it. If they did, Grand Junction is the logical choice.

My bet is they'll crew it out of Denver.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Or what they're doing for the Colorado Rockies trip. Kamloops isn't exactly feasible as a crew base


None of their normal service points will work. IIRC, they discontinued service to Seattle a few years ago, losing their only American "hub" (for lack of a better term).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> If they did, Grand Junction is the logical choice.



It would be amazing if they could restore the old depot there!


----------



## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> My bet is they'll base it out of Denver.


I agree. Makes the most sense.


----------



## me_little_me

Trogdor said:


> Amtrak OIG ≠ Amtrak. The report is an Amtrak OIG report, not a report from Amtrak management.


That's why it is such an indictment of Amtrak management. Basically, to me, it is saying that Amtrak does not have the data nor has attempted to gather it, to understand their costs and losses.

But I think that that Amtrak OIG is an independent group of Amtrak employees - which is the way most IG organizations are. I know the military IGs consist of military officers and enlisted.


----------



## jiml

Without straying too far off-topic, from the early documentation on the RM, Kamloops was chosen for one reason - cost. Cheaper land for a yard and maintenance facility and low-cost housing for a seasonal student work force. For those unfamiliar with Canadian real estate, Calgary and stopover locations like Whistler are quite expensive and Vancouver has the highest prices for both land and housing on the continent. I'd be fascinated to learn how they're going to pull off everything from maintenance to staff housing south of the border.


----------



## zephyr17

Not to get too off topic, but Whistler is dead for the Rocky Mountaineer. CN embargoed the former BC Rail line north of Squamish.

I'll be curious how Rocky Mountaineer handles it logistically in Colorado as well, particularly maintenance.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Not to get too off topic, but Whistler is dead for the Rocky Mountaineer. CN embargoed the former BC Rail line north of Squamish.


I had completely forgotten about that. I wonder if it has been rescinded, since RM still shows that as an option on their page: 





__





Rainforest to Gold Rush | Rocky Mountaineer


Witness true wilderness. Explore the mountain mecca of Whistler. See hidden lakes and canyons few others get to see. Relax in comfort as you move through seemingly impassable terrain by the Rocky Mountaineer train. Revel in the history of the gold rush. Marvel at Mount Robson, the Canadian...




www.rockymountaineer.com





or are they pulling "an Amtrak" and just not updating their schedules?


----------



## Trogdor

me_little_me said:


> That's why it is such an indictment of Amtrak management. Basically, to me, it is saying that Amtrak does not have the data nor has attempted to gather it, to understand their costs and losses.
> 
> But I think that that Amtrak OIG is an independent group of Amtrak employees - which is the way most IG organizations are. I know the military IGs consist of military officers and enlisted.



It really depends on who asked for the report. This particular report really seems to have stemmed from a directive by Mica, who did everything in his power to kill Amtrak food service.

Amtrak has done various things over the years to try to reduce food service costs, even if they don't explicitly put out fancy-looking reports saying so. The original purpose of the Cross-Country Cafe (which debuted in 2004 or 2005, many years before this report or even the "eliminate all losses on food service" mandate from Mica et al) was to run a single car replacing both the dining car and sightseer lounge using a style of service that required less staff. Nothing new, nothing earth-shattering.

Also, as best as I can tell, the actual inspector general is hired by the Amtrak board, but Amtrak OIG staff are not Amtrak staff (in fact, it would appear to be a significant conflict of interest for Amtrak OIG staff to be the same as Amtrak staff). Amtrak OIG's website indicates they have their own staff.


----------



## jruff001

jiml said:


> I'd be fascinated to learn how they're going to pull off everything from maintenance to staff housing south of the border.


Why would they be responsible for housing the staff?


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> I had completely forgotten about that. I wonder if it has been rescinded, since RM still shows that as an option on their page:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rainforest to Gold Rush | Rocky Mountaineer
> 
> 
> Witness true wilderness. Explore the mountain mecca of Whistler. See hidden lakes and canyons few others get to see. Relax in comfort as you move through seemingly impassable terrain by the Rocky Mountaineer train. Revel in the history of the gold rush. Marvel at Mount Robson, the Canadian...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rockymountaineer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or are they pulling "an Amtrak" and just not updating their schedules?


Well, since they aren't running anything now due to internal Canadian travel restrictions, they just don't run that one, too.

Unlike most tour companies, and unlike what they used to do, they aren't listing planned departure dates for their various tours for anything. Who knows if they're actually planning to run it? The Sunset East of the Great White North?

Finally, the line hasn't been out of service that long and they pay CN big bucks for track access so they aren't treated like VIA. Maybe they're arranging special inspections with CN so they can move on the line. Although rock slides were so common in the Canyon north of Lilloet that BCR always ran a track speeder ahead of their RDC to make sure the line there was okay.


----------



## jiml

jruff001 said:


> Why would they be responsible for housing the staff?


It's a temporary service with temporary staff. Whether they bring staff from Canada (unlikely due to labor rules) or hire locally, at some point people will be away from home making fairly low wages. This is a rail company without sleepers or dorm cars, so they can't stay on the train. Having to shell out a day's wages for a hotel room in Denver, Glenwood or Moab without some sort of provision or subsidy might make hiring difficult.


----------



## jruff001

jiml said:


> It's a temporary service with temporary staff. Whether they bring staff from Canada (unlikely due to labor rules) or hire locally, at some point people will be away from home making fairly low wages. This is a rail company without sleepers or dorm cars, so they can't stay on the train. Having to shell out a day's wages for a hotel room in Denver, Glenwood or Moab without some sort of provision or subsidy might make hiring difficult.


If they hire locally, why would local employees have to pay for a hotel room? They would go home at the end of their shifts like everyone else.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding.


----------



## zephyr17

I would have said Denver is a major population center, as opposed to a fairly remote smallish city pretty far into Interior BC, and Denver should have good population of college students up for a seasonal job. However, I just was on their website and saw that they are planning to run it August through November, so that let's the college kids out.

Still, I don't really think you can consider the Kamloops and Denver labor markets equivalent and am dubious about the need to recruit out of town labor with housing there.

I'd expect that the company would pay to put up their staff in a hotel at the "away terminal" be it Glenwood Springs, CO or Jasper, AB


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> If they hire locally, why would local employees have to pay for a hotel room? They would go home at the end of their shifts like everyone else.
> 
> Sorry if I am misunderstanding.


I think the staff will have one night outstation stay at least if not more for each trip, depending on where their home base is. AFAICT there is no single day turn out and back. Of course my understanding of staff assignment may be wrong since it is based on several assumptions which may or may not be true. Anyway hotel will be required for the outstation nights if there are any.


----------



## jiml

jruff001 said:


> If they hire locally, why would local employees have to pay for a hotel room? They would go home at the end of their shifts like everyone else.
> 
> Sorry if I am misunderstanding.


How would they get home to Denver (for example) when the train overnights in Glenwood or Moab? At the very least the company would have to bus them in both directions.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> I think the staff will have one night outstation stay at least if not more for each trip, depending on where their home base is. AFAICT there is no single day turn out and back. Of course my understanding of staff assignment may be wrong since it is based on several assumptions which may or may not be true. Anyway hotel will be required for the outstation nights if there are any.


Thank you... while I was typing.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> I think the staff will have one night outstation stay at least if not more for each trip, depending on where their home base is. AFAICT there is no single day turn out and back. Of course my understanding of staff assignment may be wrong since it is based on several assumptions which may or may not be true. Anyway hotel will be required for the outstation nights if there are any.


OK, gotcha. I was presuming the company would pay for accommodations while they are out on a trip. I thought we were talking about housing when one trip is over until the next one starts.


----------



## me_little_me

I'm glad to see that Amtrak Dining is related to RM's staffing locations. Those facts really help give a good picture of Amtrak's costs and revenue for their diners.


----------



## lordsigma

According to this weeks RPA hotline traditional dining should start rolling out by June 23rd. There should be some details available on traditional dining sometime next week.


----------



## A.H. Rudd

For what it’s worth, the cafe attendant on this morning’s NB Saluki told me that traditional dining will be returning to LD trains on *July 19*.

He worked the Zephyr for a decade, so I assume he knows what he’s talking about.


----------



## Sidney

The website says July 1. Some other posts suggest late June. Now it's July 19th. I'm riding again in September. I really hope it is back by then.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Look for more Postponements as Amtrak struggles with finding enough Staff to return to Daily Trains, and Negotiates Contracts with Suppliers for Better Food for the Diners and Cafes.

I'll be Shocked if what that what they start with is even close to the National Menu and Service we had pre-Pandemic!


----------



## Cal

A.H. Rudd said:


> For what it’s worth, the cafe attendant on this morning’s NB Saluki told me that traditional dining will be returning to LD trains on *July 19*.
> 
> He worked the Zephyr for a decade, so I assume he knows what he’s talking about.


 That's getting too close for comfort to my trip starting July 28th.


----------



## zephyr17

Website still says July 1st ( flex dining through June 30th). While not disputing what the LSA said, historically OBS staff are not particularly accurate sources.


----------



## Oaxacajo

I notice that details for trains before July 1 list flexible dining as an amenity and there is a statement about flex dining until June 30. Then trains after that list traditional dining as an amenity. So I'm hopeful for my trip in July.


----------



## Cal

Oaxacajo said:


> I notice that details for trains before July 1 list flexible dining as an amenity and there is a statement about flex dining until June 30. Then trains after that list traditional dining as an amenity. So I'm hopeful for my trip in July.


Won't stop them from delaying it again, as it also showed traditional dining coming back in December before it was delayed. Then May before it was delayed


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Won't stop them from delaying it again, as it also showed traditional dining coming back in December before it was delayed. Then May before it was delayed


There isn’t a conspiracy going on - the December delay was obviously going to happen. May was because they could not make that date. It’s coming - wouldn’t be surprised to see more info in the next couple week or so.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> There isn’t a conspiracy going on



There could be. Hopefully not.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> There could be. Hopefully not.


Oh, there is. Trust me. And it goes up to the highest levels of the federal government. Congress, the Senate, even Joe Biden (and Trump before him) are all focused on keeping Amtrak's REAL dining car menu plans secret and tricking people about it at the last minute. It is the #1 item on their agenda right now. It's amazing they've been able to keep it quiet for so long.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Lots of moving parts that need to line up to restart service.

Somewhere there a lot of Post-It notes on a wall.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Oh, there is. Trust me. And it goes up to the highest levels of the federal government. Congress, the Senate, even Joe Biden (and Trump before him) are all focused on keeping Amtrak's REAL dining car menu plans secret and tricking people about it at the last minute. It is the #1 item on their agenda right now. It's amazing they've been able to keep it quiet for so long.



Like many items on the current Amtrak flex menu I’m also allergic to sass


----------



## lordsigma

RPA stated on Fridays hotline there should be more information and details available in the next week.


----------



## daybeers

jruff001 said:


> Oh, there is. Trust me. And it goes up to the highest levels of the federal government. Congress, the Senate, even Joe Biden (and Trump before him) are all focused on keeping Amtrak's REAL dining car menu plans secret and tricking people about it at the last minute. It is the #1 item on their agenda right now. It's amazing they've been able to keep it quiet for so long.





Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Lots of moving parts that need to line up to restart service.
> 
> Somewhere there a lot of Post-It notes on a wall.


----------



## neroden

Not a conspiracy, just a whole lot of incompetence at Amtrak management :sigh:


----------



## tonys96

Who here knows for sure? No one, I believe.


----------



## tonys96

Bob Dylan said:


> Look for more Postponements as Amtrak struggles with finding enough Staff to return to Daily Trains, and Negotiates Contracts with Suppliers for Better Food for the Diners and Cafes.
> 
> I'll be Shocked if what that what they start with is even close to the National Menu and Service we had pre-Pandemic!


Now, now, Jim, don't be an alarmist.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tonys96 said:


> Now, now, Jim, don't be an alarmist.


Most of us know what the promises from Amtrak Management amount too.

As someone once said, "You can't take it to the Bank for a Loan!"


----------



## TravelingFan

For those of us not really into dining with people we do not know, what are our options should flexible dining no longer be available?

I am currently thinking of taking a trip in July, a roomette or bedroom on the Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle. If dining options are back to normal as before, then no more flexible menu correct? The other option it seems would then be the cafe, but you still have to eat the food in the cafe area. Only other thing I can think of is bringing your own food and just eating it in your cab.


----------



## me_little_me

Sidney said:


> The website says July 1. Some other posts suggest late June. Now it's July 19th. I'm riding again in September. I really hope it is back by then.


That's why, when I cancelled my Jun 2 trip, I didn't make a new reservation. They can't be trusted to be honest or open about it. I think they use a dart thrown at a calendar to set the date.


----------



## zephyr17

TravelingFan said:


> For those of us not really into dining with people we do not know, what are our options should flexible dining no longer be available?
> 
> I am currently thinking of taking a trip in July, a roomette or bedroom on the Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle. If dining options are back to normal as before, then no more flexible menu correct? The other option it seems would then be the cafe, but you still have to eat the food in the cafe area. Only other thing I can think of is bringing your own food and just eating it in your cab.


First, Amtrak has stated they aren't bringing back community seating with traditional dining for the immediate future. That is one of the reasons coach passengers still will not have access to the diner.

Second, you have always had the option of having "room service" with the attendant bringing your meal to your room.

Third, where in the world did you get the idea you couldn't take cafe food back to your room?


----------



## A.H. Rudd

My kids and I are on the Illini SB from CHI to CEN this evening. While stretching our legs and exploring the train we stopped by the half-cafe on the lower level of our superliner coach to make small talk with the LSA. 

I asked if he’d heard any scuttlebutt regarding the return of traditional dining and he said it would be coming back to Western LD trains “some time between the middle and end of July.” 

He also added that they will be returning to china plates and metal silverware. No more plastic tableware.


----------



## Cal

A.H. Rudd said:


> He also added that they will be returning to china plates and metal silverware. No more plastic tableware.


This has came up several times, so I am optimistic that management might finally be giving the LD network the attention they deserve.


----------



## me_little_me

zephyr17 said:


> Website still says July 1st ( flex dining through June 30th). While not disputing what the LSA said, historically OBS staff are not particularly accurate sources.


Well, on the day they delayed it again, the phone agents were giving out the old information - so "historically agent staff are not particularly accurate sources."

On the day after I got an email reply to my inquiry re the May 21 date saying that my train on June 2 was Traditional dining, they announced the June 30 date - so "historically customer service staff are not particularly accurate sources."

And since Amtrak has delayed it once again, their official position on the web site was incorrect and that, I am sure had to be approved by upper management" - so "historically executive staff are not particularly accurate sources."

So who can reliably state when Amtrak will go back to Traditional dining, if not the OBS, the online agents, customer service or the executives?

Incompetence or conspiracy? Doesn't matter. Both point to the same people at the top.

Lying or just don't know? Doesn't matter. Both point to the same people at the top.

The prosecution rests. I ask the jury to bring in a verdict of guilty on a charge of first degree incompetence and first degree conspiracy. Where's the rope?


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> Well, on the day they delayed it again, the phone agents were giving out the old information - so "historically agent staff are not particularly accurate sources."
> 
> On the day after I got an email reply to my inquiry re the May 21 date saying that my train on June 2 was Traditional dining, they announced the June 30 date - so "historically customer service staff are not particularly accurate sources."
> 
> And since Amtrak has delayed it once again, their official position on the web site was incorrect and that, I am sure had to be approved by upper management" - so "historically executive staff are not particularly accurate sources."
> 
> So who can reliably state when Amtrak will go back to Traditional dining, if not the OBS, the online agents, customer service or the executives?
> 
> Incompetence or conspiracy? Doesn't matter. Both point to the same people at the top.
> 
> Lying or just don't know? Doesn't matter. Both point to the same people at the top.
> 
> The prosecution rests. I ask the jury to bring in a verdict of guilty on a charge of first degree incompetence and first degree conspiracy. Where's the rope?


Incompetence by a mile.

The website is always the last place to be updated. OBS employees are Rumor Central. The phone agents are famously clueless about conditions in the field. The website isn't timely, info from the OBS folks is unreliable, and the phone agents remain clueless about anything except reservations.

It'll happen when it happens. What I find striking is Amtrak's management inability to form a executable relaunch plan by now.

Amtrak's motto certainly seems to be "overpromise and under deliver."


----------



## deBASHmode

I guess my first trip (west coast to Chicago on the Zephyr) on July3 will be a toss-up, then.


----------



## SteveSFL

deBASHmode said:


> I guess my first trip (west coast to Chicago on the Zephyr) on July3 will be a toss-up, then.


We should be passing each other somewhere in Nebraska in the middle of the night as I’m departing Chicago for SF on July 4. I had originally planned on June trip but rescheduled when they extended the crap meals. Too complicated to reschedule again.


----------



## Cal

SteveSTX said:


> We should be passing each other somewhere in Nebraska in the middle of the night as I’m departing Chicago for SF on July 4. I had originally planned on June trip but rescheduled when they extended the crap meals. Too complicated to reschedule again.


I too have passed an AU'er through the night before while on the Starlight.


----------



## railiner

I think many of those here are more bothered by not knowing the full restoration plans in advance, than anything else...When the resolution to the dining debacle finally comes, I wonder what will replace it as the number one 'hot topic' of speculation will be?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I think many of those here are more bothered by not knowing the full restoration plans in advance, than anything else...When the resolution to the dining debacle finally comes, I wonder what will replace it as the number one 'hot topic' of speculation will be?


The earlier big concern was flower vases on the tables. Perhaps we will revert back to that! 

But it really is going to be most of the rest of this year for resolution of Dining in the east, and then too it will probably be at most SDS type thing, and there will be plenty left to belly-ache about is my guess.


----------



## me_little_me

Seems like some people here just don't get it. When I buy a ticket, I expect a certain level of service. When I pay as much as Amtrak is charging these days, I DEMAND that level of service. Amtrak is not delivering that level of service nor is it delivering what it promises. Moreover, they can't be upfront with me or truthful about when they will deliver that service. As a customer and taxpayer who pays their salaries and benefits, I am owed at least them being honest about it so I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to pay the price asked for the service delivered.

So when they cut down the service (making it less enjoyable by cutting items or services of minuscule cost), totally fail to deliver their promises (ala the new linens), or simply change the date when they will deliver that service with no explanation causing me to have to change my plans and/or lose money on the other services I use (hotels, etc), I don't like it.

They have never shown me any example of competence; they lie like a rug; they are damaging what we taxpayers have been paying for to the extent they may be destroying it. 

There is nothing wrong with saying "We thought we could meet this date but xxxx happened and we must delay it" but they need to be open about that and know enough about what they are doing to provide a date they know they can meet so I can make an informed decision about spending my money. As of now, based on THEIR PROMISES and their LACK OF OPENNESS, they are IMHO just incompetent and/or lying.

Other than that, I think the world of them! And I'd love them more if they'd quit and take a job in another world.


----------



## Palmetto

Airlines have a Contract of Carriage. Perhaps Amtrak should, too.


----------



## me_little_me

Palmetto said:


> Airlines have a Contract of Carriage. Perhaps Amtrak should, too.


They do. And all of them, Amtrak included, say if we don't provide it, tough luck. It may have taken you a month to get where you were supposed to go and we had to transport you with the baggage, but we got you there and that's all you are entitled to. Anything more than that is just good will on our part.


----------



## Sidney

me_little_me said:


> Seems like some people here just don't get it. When I buy a ticket, I expect a certain level of service. When I pay as much as Amtrak is charging these days, I DEMAND that level of service. Amtrak is not delivering that level of service nor is it delivering what it promises. Moreover, they can't be upfront with me or truthful about when they will deliver that service. As a customer and taxpayer who pays their salaries and benefits, I am owed at least them being honest about it so I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to pay the price asked for the service delivered.
> 
> So when they cut down the service (making it less enjoyable by cutting items or services of minuscule cost), totally fail to deliver their promises (ala the new linens), or simply change the date when they will deliver that service with no explanation causing me to have to change my plans and/or lose money on the other services I use (hotels, etc), I don't like it.
> 
> They have never shown me any example of competence; they lie like a rug; they are damaging what we taxpayers have been paying for to the extent they may be destroying it.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with saying "We thought we could meet this date but xxxx happened and we must delay it" but they need to be open about that and know enough about what they are doing to provide a date they know they can meet so I can make an informed decision about spending my money. As of now, based on THEIR PROMISES and their LACK OF OPENNESS, they are IMHO just incompetent and/or lying.
> 
> Other than that, I think the world of them! And I'd love them more if they'd quit and take a job in another world.


Agree 100%. As almost everyone has stated at the price point sleepers are,decent dining should be expected.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Airlines have a Contract of Carriage. Perhaps Amtrak should, too.


Are you looking for something more than this?









Terms and Conditions | Amtrak







www.amtrak.com





It seems to contain every section that for example the UA Contract of Carriage contains. What additional things are you expecting?


----------



## lizpackslight

I rode the Crescent yesterday from Birmingham to New Orleans. The train was completely sold out. By Hattiesburg, we were running an hour late. I had not planned on needing dinner on the train, but by 6:00 I was getting a little hungry and decided to check out the cafe car. Silly me. It was picked clean. There were no sodas, no food, only a few bags of the less desirable chips and some candy bars. Bless their hearts. I don’t think they were prepared to go back to full capacity.

Maybe things were better for the sleeper passengers.


----------



## MisterUptempo

lizpackslight said:


> I rode the Crescent yesterday from Birmingham to New Orleans. The train was completely sold out. By Hattiesburg, we were running an hour late. I had not planned on needing dinner on the train, but by 6:00 I was getting a little hungry and decided to check out the cafe car. Silly me. It was picked clean. There were no sodas, no food, only a few bags of the less desirable chips and some candy bars. Bless their hearts. I don’t think they were prepared to go back to full capacity.
> 
> Maybe things were better for the sleeper passengers.


I never understood why the trains, LD to be sure but corridors even more so, don't have cashless vending machines on them (and, yes, I know there are a few that do), in addition to cafe cars and/or diners.

Let a nationwide vending company like Canteen service the machines at the termini. Having fully stocked machines means more available inventory and a wider selection of items to choose from. Plus, it would reduce the foot traffic into the cafe and allow the service attendants to concentrate on better serving those wanting something more substantial than a bag of chips or a bottle of juice.

And, yes, the machines might run out of some popular items during the trip, but inventory mixes can be reassessed and changed very quickly.

The Caltrans Venture car order includes vending machine cars (though it would also include a condiment area that would likely not be needed on trains with food service), and it will be interesting to see if the experiment succeeds. If it does, there is no reason why Amtrak shouldn't tack on a few vending cars as part of their Amfleet replacement order.


----------



## railiner

MisterUptempo said:


> I never understood why the trains, LD to be sure but corridors even more so, don't have cashless vending machines on them (and, yes, I know there are a few that do), in addition to cafe cars and/or diners.
> 
> Let a nationwide vending company like Canteen service the machines at the termini. Having fully stocked machines means more available inventory and a wider selection of items to choose from. Plus, it would reduce the foot traffic into the cafe and allow the service attendants to concentrate on better serving those wanting something more substantial than a bag of chips or a bottle of juice.
> 
> And, yes, the machines might run out of some popular items during the trip, but inventory mixes can be reassessed and changed very quickly.
> 
> The Caltrans Venture car order includes vending machine cars (though it would also include a condiment area that would likely not be needed on trains with food service), and it will be interesting to see if the experiment succeeds. If it does, there is no reason why Amtrak shouldn't tack on a few vending cars as part of their Amfleet replacement order.


Like on the Piedmont?




__





Train Amenities | North Carolina Amtrak Service







www.ncbytrain.org


----------



## IndyLions

It will be one or the other - not both.

if there are vending machines - there will be no cafe attendant and vice-versa.

In CA, they may become popular as some new trains (as you say) are switching to them.

In Michigan 15 or 20 years ago - they were not popular. They relatively quickly brought back the traditional cafe car.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> And since Amtrak has delayed it once again, their official position on the web site was incorrect and that, I am sure had to be approved by upper management" - so "historically executive staff are not particularly accurate sources."



Not sure what has been delayed. RPA indicated in Friday’s hotline that management has told them traditional dining will be returning on June 23rd and we should hear more this week it sounded pretty official to me. I am guessing the OBS crew member saying July heard wrong.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> I am guessing the OBS crew member saying July heard wrong.


Would not be the first time.


----------



## ref5035

railiner said:


> I think many of those here are more bothered by not knowing the full restoration plans in advance, than anything else...When the resolution to the dining debacle finally comes, I wonder what will replace it as the number one 'hot topic' of speculation will be?


SSL returning


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> I think many of those here are more bothered by not knowing the full restoration plans in advance, than anything else...When the resolution to the dining debacle finally comes, I wonder what will replace it as the number one 'hot topic' of speculation will be?


The Proposed Routes map?


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

_jiml said:_
_The consist yes, the crew not so much. Their crew base was in Kamloops, so OBS would work to either extremity (Vancouver or Calgary) then return on the next service. I believe the service manager/cruise director would be the only common staff passengers would see for an entire trip. Since they haven't been operating for some time, who knows how it will work on resumption._

I rode the Rocky Mountaineer in 2010 Vancouver to Banff and while we stopped overnight in Kamloops, the entire on board staff continued for the full trip Vancouver to Calgary and then return to Vancouver so they were gone four days from home. Incidentally, each car is a separate trip and maintains on board crew in that car for the entire trip. You cannot move from car to car. If there was a conductor for the train he must have rode in the engine with the operator since they are the only crew that changed after traveling a certain number of hours, etc.


----------



## railiner

Tennessee Traveler said:


> _jiml said:_
> _The consist yes, the crew not so much. Their crew base was in Kamloops, so OBS would work to either extremity (Vancouver or Calgary) then return on the next service. I believe the service manager/cruise director would be the only common staff passengers would see for an entire trip. Since they haven't been operating for some time, who knows how it will work on resumption._
> 
> I rode the Rocky Mountaineer in 2010 Vancouver to Banff and while we stopped overnight in Kamloops, the entire on board staff continued for the full trip Vancouver to Calgary and then return to Vancouver so they were gone four days from home. Incidentally, each car is a separate trip and maintains on board crew in that car for the entire trip. You cannot move from car to car. If there was a conductor for the train he must have rode in the engine with the operator since they are the only crew that changed after traveling a certain number of hours, etc.


If the CN (or CP) Conductor rode in the engine, how did the Rocky Mountaineer OBS crew communicate with them, if there was some issue that needed stopping, short of pulling the emergency brake?


----------



## zephyr17

Cannot answer for Rocky Mountaineer, but can answer for VIA, which also doesn't have conductors in the train.

VIA has an OBS frequency that is used by the crew to communicate instead of the intercom that Amtrak uses. The engineer is also on that frequency and the Service Manager uses it to communicate to the head end. The VIA radios can't get on the road or dispatcher (RTC up there) channel. The engineer has all of them, road, dispatcher(RTC), and VIA OBS.

BTW, I just found another reason not to take the Rocky Mountaineer, inability to move about the train.


----------



## me_little_me

zephyr17 said:


> BTW, I just found another reason not to take the Rocky Mountaineer, inability to move about the train.


Boy, do I agree! No way, José!


----------



## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> Cannot answer for Rocky Mountaineer, but can answer for VIA, which also doesn't have conductors in the train.
> 
> VIA has an OBS frequency that is used by the crew to communicate instead of the intercom that Amtrak uses. The engineer is also on that frequency and the Service Manager uses it to communicate to the head end. The VIA radios can't get on the road or dispatcher (RTC up there) channel. The engineer has all of them, road, dispatcher(RTC), and VIA OBS.
> 
> BTW, I just found another reason not to take the Rocky Mountaineer, inability to move about the train.


Must be the same on the Rocky Mountaineer, then. They must also have a "service manager" in charge on the train, with communication to the operating crew.

As far as inability to move about, on the Rocky Mountaineer, if they are like the cruise ship cars in Alaska, there is no need to...each car is identical to other's in the same class, and are self-contained...assigned seats, dining room, bar, observation area, etc.,


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Tennessee Traveler said:


> I rode the Rocky Mountaineer in 2010 Vancouver to Banff and while we stopped overnight in Kamloops, the entire on board staff continued for the full trip Vancouver to Calgary and then return to Vancouver so they were gone four days from home.



That’s what I had assumed as that makes the most sense but I wasn’t going to argue with others who claimed to know.

I’m hoping to make the trip one day!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> BTW, I just found another reason not to take the Rocky Mountaineer, inability to move about the train.



Each car has an outdoor viewing platform and a dining room plus the coach seats all have dome car style windows.


----------



## deBASHmode

SteveSTX said:


> We should be passing each other somewhere in Nebraska in the middle of the night as I’m departing Chicago for SF on July 4. I had originally planned on June trip but rescheduled when they extended the crap meals. Too complicated to reschedule again.


Cool! If I'm awake in Nebraska, I'll be sure to wave at any passing train, just in case!


----------



## Cal

deBASHmode said:


> Cool! If I'm awake in Nebraska, I'll be sure to wave at any passing train, just in case!


Y'all can wave to each other through the railfan window


----------



## railiner

Cal said:


> Y'all can wave to each other through the railfan window


Thru Nebraska? Better use a flashlight (or phone light)...


----------



## cocojacoby

Amtrak has some new "Traditional Dining Menus" posted:



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



P.S. Why change New York Cheesecake to Philadelphia Cheesecake???


----------



## OBS

cocojacoby said:


> Amtrak has some new "Traditional Dining Menus" posted:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Why change New York Cheesecake to Philadelphia Cheesecake???


They probably get marketing money and/ or discounts from Philadelphia brand for featuring it.


----------



## Sidney

Wow! Impressed..and you still get a free alcholic drink? Booked for September. Sadly,the Eastern trains,CONO and the TE are stuck with flex dining.

It's like night and day. Good food is essential on an Amtrak journey. Notice no prices are quoted. I guess for the near future only sleeper pax can utilize the diner


----------



## chrsjrcj

cocojacoby said:


> Amtrak has some new "Traditional Dining Menus" posted:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Why change New York Cheesecake to Philadelphia Cheesecake???



Chili and grilled cheese added to lunch menu will make my mother happy, but I'm sure many will be sad to see the veggie burger and mussels go. 

Dinner looks mostly the same, although if you want the equivalent of the land & sea combo you have to forgo the salad as an appetizer. Honestly looks like a lot food anyway. 

As long as my burger is there for lunch, I am happy. Will be interesting to see what changes they come up with for the east coast trains (eventually).


----------



## Sidney

The Mussels were gone before Covid and replaced by ribs,which were also good. Would be nice to have them on the lunch menu,but just to have this essential part of the Amtrak experience return is good news.


----------



## lordsigma

As you’ll notice - June 23rd is the return date - as announced Friday by RPA.


----------



## Cal

cocojacoby said:


> Amtrak has some new "Traditional Dining Menus" posted:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Why change New York Cheesecake to Philadelphia Cheesecake???


Well, I'm glad to see there have not been too many cuts. Definitely a smaller menu than a few years ago, but doable. I was surprised to see a three course dinner. I'm also glad I'll be able to order my steak. 

Now can we just get this implemented on Eastern LD routes?


----------



## Cal

Also, I am curious. If they are bringing back China, are they still going to have the paper menus? Bring back the actual menus!\

Edit/Adding on: 

This is a screenshot of the Amtrak traditional dining page. Looks good, but not sure if this is how they will actually be presented in operations.


----------



## jis

So now we know for sure that the Texas Eagle will have Flex Menu between Chicago and San Antonio for the time being, and Traditional Dining will be available only between San Antonio and Los Angeles.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Also, I am curious. If they are bringing back China, are they still going to have the paper menus? Bring back the actual menus!\
> 
> Edit/Adding on:
> 
> This is a screenshot of the Amtrak traditional dining page. Looks good, but not sure if this is how they will actually be presented in operations.
> View attachment 22747


I’ve heard from a reliable source that the desserts, at least the cheesecake & carrot cake, will be whole cakes sliced for serving rather than prepackaged slices.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> I’ve heard from a reliable source that the desserts, at least the cheesecake & carrot cake, will be whole cakes sliced for serving rather than prepackaged slices.


Where would they be made?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Where would they be made?


I don’t know.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Interesting new menu choices. I’m a bit concerned that every dinner entree has a sauce and different side dish. What if you want chicken but no mushroom gravy for example? Can I get salmon with a baked potato like I could before? 

I’m sure it will vary from crew to crew anyways. 

Also seems strange not to have the veggie burger.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I noticed that the steak no longer says cooked to order and none of the items has the FDA cooking advisory next to it. The Chef Inspired items were never cooked to order and still tasted good but this would appear to be a downgrade from traditional dining service we used to know.


----------



## lordsigma

The fda advisory is on there the same way it is on auto train and they cook the steak to order on auto train. It’s listed off to the side instead of attached to each item.


----------



## lordsigma

Additionally the omlettes will clearly be made on board with the multiple choices for toppings.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> Where would they be made?


If they're supplied by Aramark, I would expect they'll baked in a factory, and quite possibly pre-frozen and thawed the day of serving.


----------



## IndyLions

Promising!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

cocojacoby said:


> P.S. Why change New York Cheesecake to Philadelphia Cheesecake???



Especially since those of us boarding in PHL won’t have it!

This menu looks good to me. Very good, considering I’m not planning to leave the East Coast for a long time and will not pay ridiculous sleeper prices to ride around the east and have flex meals.

If the western trains get this decent food, and even real china, and the eastern ones are stuck with flex meals forever, I don’t want to hear any more about how we easterners are privileged elites!


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> If they're supplied by Aramark, I would expect they'll baked in a factory, and quite possibly pre-frozen and thawed the day of serving.


Likely bulk purchased by Aramark, not made by them.

Hope it'll be as good as the sliced cheesecake they had before. The individual cheesecake "tarts" they had after that were too sweet for my taste, not enough cheesecake tang.

Just happy traditional dining is returning. Especially like the dinner appetizer choices instead of just a salad, which were usually pretty lousy salads.


----------



## jis

As always, only a few of the items appear to be slated to be cooked to order, which is fine AFAIAC.


----------



## Mailliw

This is great news, but coach passengers should be allowed to advance purchase meal plans.


----------



## jebr

Mailliw said:


> This is great news, but coach passengers should be allowed to advance purchase meal plans.



And/or increase the options available from the cafe car. Ever since I've started traveling on Amtrak the western LD trains have had a quite poor cafe car menu, espeically if you're traveling over multiple meal times. The dining car (with semi-reasonable prices) helped that somewhat - at least you could get something beyond very basic convenience store food. Adding a few options for fresh salads/sandwiches would help a lot, along with some sort of fresh-ish fruit option (even a mixed fruit cup would be appreciated!)


----------



## RRrich

Used to be that the menu on LD trains changed every meal ('cept maybe breakfast} & day - making meals much more interesting


----------



## zephyr17

RRrich said:


> Used to be that the menu on LD trains changed every meal ('cept maybe breakfast} & day - making meals much more interesting


That was a long, long time ago.


----------



## jis

jebr said:


> And/or increase the options available from the cafe car. Ever since I've started traveling on Amtrak the western LD trains have had a quite poor cafe car menu, espeically if you're traveling over multiple meal times. The dining car (with semi-reasonable prices) helped that somewhat - at least you could get something beyond very basic convenience store food. Adding a few options for fresh salads/sandwiches would help a lot, along with some sort of fresh-ish fruit option (even a mixed fruit cup would be appreciated!)


For many average Coach passengers, having been an experienced one, back in my student days, I think it really is more important to have a good and well priced Cafe offering than necessarily getting access to the Diner. Of course getting access to the Diner is better, but back in my Coach days on a two day trip I would use the Diner maybe twice, if that. It was just unaffordable.



zephyr17 said:


> That was a long, long time ago.


...in a Galaxy far far away . Just couldn't resist.


----------



## zephyr17

Mailliw said:


> This is great news, but coach passengers should be allowed to advance purchase meal plans.


I think they should just allow access once community seating is resumed and charge coach passengers for their meals. That is how it always had been done.

Jis pointed out the problem with pre purchased meals. Most coach passengers only eat a couple meals in the diner. They should be able to continue to

I don't disagree with a meal plan, Santa Fe offered one with their One Price Ticket, but you could pay individually for your meals, too.


----------



## Sidney

Devil's Advocate said:


> I noticed that the steak no longer says cooked to order and none of the items has the FDA cooking advisory next to it. The Chef Inspired items were never cooked to order and still tasted good but this would appear to be a downgrade from traditional dining service we used to know.


I would hope the steak would be cooked to order,as it always had been. I eat mine medium rare. Certainly hope the steak will still be cooked the way you want it.


----------



## Cal

RRrich said:


> Used to be that the menu on LD trains changed every meal ('cept maybe breakfast} & day - making meals much more interesting


I didn't know that. Just if we could have traditional dining on all trains...


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> I would hope the steak would be cooked to order,as it always had been. I eat mine medium rare. Certainly hope the steak will still be cooked the way you want it.


I see nothing to indicate that it wouldn’t be.


----------



## Sidney

Devils advocate mentioned there was no longer a "cooked to order" statement next to the steak.


----------



## Bob Dylan

chrsjrcj said:


> Chili and grilled cheese added to lunch menu will make my mother happy, but I'm sure many will be sad to see the veggie burger and mussels go.
> 
> Dinner looks mostly the same, although if you want the equivalent of the land & sea combo you have to forgo the salad as an appetizer. Honestly looks like a lot food anyway.
> 
> As long as my burger is there for lunch, I am happy. Will be interesting to see what changes they come up with for the east coast trains (eventually).


Not having the Veggie Burger is crazy, but Alas, some Desk Jockey or Committee in Washington convinced the Suits it wasn't needed!


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> Not having the Veggie Burger is crazy, but Alas, some Desk Jockey or Committe in Washington convinced the Suits it wasn't needed!


Be thankfuk it's not narrowed down to two items per meal.


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> Devils advocate mentioned there was no longer a "cooked to order" statement next to the steak.


That doesn't mean it isn't. The auto train's menu doesn't say cooked to order but yet it is. And the FDA message about eating raw or undercooked food is there - just not after each item it's listed off to the side on the first page.


----------



## Tlcooper93

As a vegetarian, I’m sad to see the veggie burger go. I’ve never experienced western LD traditional dining, but I am hopeful. Everything else looks to be great.

Will the veggie burger be available in the cafe car, even if it’s not served in the e dining car?


----------



## zephyr17

Tlcooper93 said:


> As a vegetarian, I’m sad to see the veggie burger go. I’ve never experienced western LD traditional dining, but I am hopeful. Everything else looks to be great.
> 
> Will the veggie burger be available in the cafe car, even if it’s not served in the e dining car?


As a non vegetarian, I am sorry to see that veggie burger go. It was tasty.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> ...in a Galaxy far far away . Just couldn't resist.


Like western Canada?

Scroll down after you open link....










I ate 11 meals prepared in a tiny train kitchen during a 4-day journey across Canada, and I was blown away by how delicious they all were


The food that came out of the small train kitchen was impressive and included rack of lamb and made-to-order eggs for sleeper class travelers.




www.insider.com


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Like western Canada?
> 
> Scroll down after you open link....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ate 11 meals prepared in a tiny train kitchen during a 4-day journey across Canada, and I was blown away by how delicious they all were
> 
> 
> The food that came out of the small train kitchen was impressive and included rack of lamb and made-to-order eggs for sleeper class travelers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.insider.com


The Maharaja Special in India is even better as far as food and pampering goes


----------



## Dakota 400

I am impressed with the new menus. Seeing that there will be some choices added to some foods, i.e. the egg dishes, says to me that there will be some "cooking to order". I noticed something called Terra Chips as a side for some lunch items. I had to google that. Not familiar with this brand of chips, but I have had some of that type of chips made by different brand. Promising and, if they are good, will be a welcome change from the Kettle Chips that I never really liked.


----------



## Dakota 400

I noticed the prices were listed for the alcoholic beverages. Maybe my memory is incorrect, but I think the prices for wine--by the glass as well as by the bottle--are higher than what I remember paying in 2019.


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> I noticed the prices were listed for the alcoholic beverages. Maybe my memory is incorrect, but I think the prices for wine--by the glass as well as by the bottle--are higher than what I remember paying in 2019.


Prices are like Entropy. It always goes up no matter what


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> I noticed the prices were listed for the alcoholic beverages. Maybe my memory is incorrect, but I think the prices for wine--by the glass as well as by the bottle--are higher than what I remember paying in 2019.


Surprised?


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Surprised?



No. I wish Amtrak could offer a bit more of a selection, but, I realize that there's only so much storage space for different wines and liquors.


----------



## Cal

Dakota 400 said:


> I noticed the prices were listed for the alcoholic beverages. Maybe my memory is incorrect, but I think the prices for wine--by the glass as well as by the bottle--are higher than what I remember paying in 2019.


Looking at a 2017 menu from the Starlight, Single serving of wine was 7 and a half bottle was 16.

When comparing to a 2010 (give or take) menu from the Sunset, a single serving was 5;50 and a half bottle was 14.


----------



## Sidney

I usually bring a four pack of those little bottles of wine with me. Usually the price runs from $7 to $8. A single bottle on Amtrak is $8.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Tlcooper93 said:


> Will the veggie burger be available in the cafe car, even if it’s not served in the e dining car?



The veggie burger in the cafe is not nearly as good as the veggie burger in the dining car. In the cafe the whole thing comes in one plastic package that is microwaved. This means the bread is usually soggy and sticks to the veggie patty. The only condiments to add are the mustard, ketchup, and relish. 

In the dining car the patty was grilled and a good chef would also toast the buns on the grill. Plus you got fresh lettuce, tomato, and red onion. 



Dakota 400 said:


> No. I wish Amtrak could offer a bit more of a selection, but, I realize that there's only so much storage space for different wines and liquors.



The storage space is there and has been used in the past to offer a larger and better selection.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The new traditional dining might not be identical to our old favorites but it sounds reasonable on paper and a nice upgrade from the casserole meals.









lordsigma said:


> The auto train's menu doesn't say cooked to order but yet it is. And the FDA message about eating raw or undercooked food is there - just not after each item it's listed off to the side on the first page.


Fair point. We'll just have to see what happens once the new program is up and running. All things considered I'm cautiously optimistic for now.


----------



## Dustyroad

My friend and I are very excited about the real menu's coming back. I was happy to see the Tamale as a choice. But, I am uncertain about the ''hatch green chille'' in it. I cant do spicy. Does anyone know if it they are spicy or mild or just a '' flip of the coin '' for how it will be. Other than that every thing offered is fine with me.


----------



## Dustyroad

Tlcooper93 said:


> As a vegetarian, I’m sad to see the veggie burger go. I’ve never experienced western LD traditional dining, but I am hopeful. Everything else looks to be great.
> 
> Will the veggie burger be available in the cafe car, even if it’s not served in the e dining car?


I just noticed on the Amtrak site at Lunch that the Chile is Vegan and you can have it in a Baked Potato with options. All is not lost for you


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> I just noticed on the Amtrak site at Lunch that the Chile is Vegan and you can have it in a Baked Potato with options. All is not lost for you


The Burger also comes with coleslaw, that's new.


----------



## IndyLions

Devil's Advocate said:


> ...All things considered I'm cautiously optimistic for now.



Elizabeth! It’s the big one! I’m coming to join you honey!

*Devil’s Advocate* is optimistic! (even cautiously!)

Next thing you know, *me_little_me* will be singing Amtrak’s praises!


----------



## Palmland

I guess this makes it official.

Traditional Dining


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmland said:


> I guess this makes it official.
> 
> Traditional Dining





> with glassware, cutlery and white linen tablecloths. *Ceramic dishware is set to debut later this year*.


So, for now they'll just put the food on the linen tablecloths? Just Kidding!!


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> So, for now they'll just put the food on the linen tablecloths? Just Kidding!!


Woah woah woah, I wouldn't put Amtrak past that!! 



I see this as extremely good news. Seems like management (or someone) is pro-LD more than we thought.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I see this as extremely good news. Seems like management (or someone) is pro-LD more than we thought.



It’s certainly good news overall, but the fact that it’s only coming to western trains and will only be available to “passengers in private rooms” makes me wonder what Amtrak has up its sleeves.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'm wondering if the "sleepers only" policy for the diner is only while COVID is still "out there". Are they not continuing the social distancing in the diners along with the mask mandate?


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm wondering if the "sleepers only" policy for the diner is only while COVID is still "out there". Are they not continuing the social distancing in the diners along with the mask mandate?


This is what I'm thinking. 


crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s certainly good news overall, but the fact that it’s only coming to western trains and will only be available to “passengers in private rooms” makes me wonder what Amtrak has up its sleeves.


Some western trains. Not sure why it's not coming back to the Eagle, perhaps they couldn't find enough staff in time and decided to put it with the Eastern routes. 

Hopefully, if the rumors are true, we will see traditional dining make a return on Eastern routes as well. I'm more optimistic now than I was a month ago


----------



## cocojacoby

I guess I could see the Viewliner Diners being kept as "First Class" dining cars with traditional service and then they could be "First Class" lounges between meal hours. But at least it would be nice if coach passengers could purchase these meals and pick them up at the new pickup counter (if the rumors are true) and then take them back to the Cafe Car for consumption. Maybe that's the idea? It would save the coach passengers the 15-20% tip too.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dustyroad said:


> But, I am uncertain about the ''hatch green chille'' in it. I cant do spicy. Does anyone know if it they are spicy or mild or just a '' flip of the coin '' for how it will be.


Hatch is the name of a town and valley in southern New Mexico that grows a lot of chilies. It's also a brand name and a kind of shorthand for New Mexican chilies outside the state. In terms of spice they can be mild or hot depending on the growing conditions. That being said this is Aramark we're talking about so I wouldn't worry too much about the spice level since chances are good they'll go with the mild version.



Cal said:


> I see this as extremely good news. Seems like management (or someone) is pro-LD more than we thought.


To me it seems they're mainly responding to push-back from customers, advocates, and congresspeople.


----------



## Cal

Devil's Advocate said:


> To me it seems they're mainly responding to push-back from customers, advocates, and congresspeople.


That's fair, but I'm sure most would have accepted it without glassware, linens, ceramic dishware, and actual appetizers for dinner. Those were extra.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> Each car has an outdoor viewing platform and a dining room plus the coach seats all have dome car style windows.


How would that work when the RM connects to an Amtrak train? Amtrak prohibits riding in the outdoor viewing area on attached private cars.


----------



## joelkfla

Palmland said:


> I guess this makes it official.
> 
> Traditional Dining


Hmmm -- no mention of flowers.


----------



## me_little_me

So the Vegan chile has the option for bacon or cheese? Wonder how many vegans will choose one of those options?

Hey, it makes everyone happy! Be still my heart!

For us "Vegans-Once Removed", we can handle both.


----------



## daybeers

Dakota 400 said:


> I noticed the prices were listed for the alcoholic beverages. Maybe my memory is incorrect, but I think the prices for wine--by the glass as well as by the bottle--are higher than what I remember paying in 2019.


The alcohol prices on the new menu are less than the on the current flex dining menu.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> How would that work when the RM connects to an Amtrak train? Amtrak prohibits riding in the outdoor viewing area on attached private cars.



Not sure... the platforms are being advertised for the Rocky Mountaineer Colorado trips. 



me_little_me said:


> So the Vegan chile has the option for bacon or cheese? Wonder how many vegans will choose one of those options?



Probably the same “vegans” who ordered cheese and bacon on the veggie burger!


----------



## Cal

daybeers said:


> The alcohol prices on the new menu are less than the on the current flex dining menu.


And about the same as in 2017


----------



## Steve4031

It’s a nice menu. That artisan Grilled cheese is a change up from the angus burger.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Steve4031 said:


> It’s a nice menu. That artisan Grilled cheese is a change up from the angus burger.



About 8 years ago they had a grilled cheese on the menu that was wonderful. I had it on the empire builder and the lake shore limited and it was extremely good on both trains.

Seems sad to make a traditionally vegetarian option, not a vegetarian option by adding turkey but Amtrak didn’t ask me! Haha


----------



## Mailliw

Is this going to be a pre-made sandwich the chef justs toasts or will they actually be making it?


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> Probably the same “vegans” who ordered cheese and bacon on the veggie burger!


I didn't know doing that made me vegan!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> I didn't know doing that made me vegan!



It made you smart! That veggie burger was good!


----------



## deBASHmode

And newspaper confirmation of the startup date for traditional dining. https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-dining-car-service/

That's in time for my trip, but I'm gathering from reading on this board that I should not hold my breath?


----------



## Cal

deBASHmode said:


> Saw this today about traditional dining service on western LD routes coming back June 23. https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-dining-car-service/
> 
> That's in time for my trip, but I'm gathering from reading here that I should not hold my breath...


I think this is the actual date, as today Amtrak announced it everywhere, dropped the new menus, and announced glassware is coming back.


----------



## SP&S

Having just put up with the Flex Dining on the Starlight the new menu is a great sight. Had a great SA and you could tell he was a bit embarrassed to be serving the stuff and was telling how things would be better starting on the 23rd. Ah well, timing has never been my strong suit.


----------



## deBASHmode

Cal said:


> I think this is the actual date, as today Amtrak announced it everywhere, dropped the new menus, and announced glassware is coming back.


Just seeing that now. Sweet!


----------



## Dustyroad

Devil's Advocate said:


> Hatch is the name of a town and valley in southern New Mexico that grows a lot of chilies. It's also a brand name and a kind of shorthand for New Mexican chilies outside the state. In terms of spice they can be mild or hot depending on the growing conditions. That being said this is Aramark we're talking about so I wouldn't worry too much about the spice level since chances are good they'll go with the mild version.
> 
> 
> To me it seems they're mainly responding to push-back from customers, advocates, and congresspeople.


----------



## Dustyroad

Thanks Devil's Advocate for the great info on the chilie. I'm more hopeful now that the Tamale will just be mild and not too spicy.


----------



## Steve4031

What’s awesome is that this summer will be my gf’s first ride in the coast starlight (lax-emy) and CZ emy-chi!!


----------



## Dustyroad

Steve4031 said:


> What’s awesome is that this summer will be my gf’s first ride in the coast starlight (lax-emy) and CZ emy-chi!!


I know you will have a wonderful trip.


----------



## tonys96

Cal said:


> Woah woah woah, I wouldn't put Amtrak past that!!
> 
> 
> 
> I see this as extremely good news. Seems like management (or someone) is pro-LD more than we thought.


Nope, maybe pro far Western trains, though.
CONO, TE, and Crescent are LD trains that now are orphan trains.


----------



## jis

tonys96 said:


> Nope, maybe pro far Western trains, though.
> CONO, TE, and Crescent are LD trains that now are orphan trains.


What are "orphan trains"? What caused you to select just those three?


----------



## lordsigma

tonys96 said:


> CONO, TE, and Crescent are LD trains that now are orphan trains.


CONO didn't have full service dining even before it got flexible dining.


----------



## niemi24s

I can hardly wait for the return of traditional dining so everybody will have something new to ***** about!


----------



## jis

niemi24s said:


> I can hardly wait for the return of traditional dining so everybody will have something new to ***** about!


I am afraid you are in for a many months long wait at least as there are nop dates yet for changes to the Eastern LD trains, and even the nature of the change is rumored to be less than full traditional dining when it comes to pass.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> I am afraid you are in for a many months long wait at least as there are nop dates yet for changes to the Eastern LD trains, and even the nature of the change is rumored to be less than full traditional dining when it comes to pass.


Any specifics? I thought it was normal traditional dining.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Any specifics? I thought it was normal traditional dining.


Current rumor is that it will not be normal traditional dining, but more like what used to be SDS with no cooked to order items. But the final disposition has not been decided on yet, so maybe there is hope. The basic theory seems to be that they do not want to go back to a fully staffed Diner.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Current rumor is that it will not be normal traditional dining, but more like what used to be SDS with no cooked to order items. But the final disposition has not been decided on yet, so maybe there is hope. The basic theory seems to be that they do not want to go back to a fully staffed Diner.


Is SDS simplified dining, or something similar? And isn't this service similar to what was on the Cardinal or in the CCC's? 


If so, it's still a big upgrade from flex.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Is SDS simplified dining, or something similar? And isn't this service similar to what was on the Cardinal or in the CCC's?
> 
> 
> If so, it's still a big upgrade from flex.


But it is still a big downgrade from the full traditional dining that used to be there.


----------



## OBS

Cal said:


> Is SDS simplified dining, or something similar? And isn't this service similar to what was on the Cardinal or in the CCC's?
> 
> 
> If so, it's still a big upgrade from flex.


COULD be a big upgrade. I wouldn't assume anything...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Current rumor is that it will not be normal traditional dining, but more like what used to be SDS with no cooked to order items. But the final disposition has not been decided on yet, so maybe there is hope. The basic theory seems to be that they do not want to go back to a fully staffed Diner.



Are you talking about the western trains or eastern?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

niemi24s said:


> I can hardly wait for the return of traditional dining so everybody will have something new to ***** about!


I can hardly wait for cruises to come back so you can find something else to focus on for a while.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are you talking about the western trains or eastern?


Don't want to speak for someone else but pretty sure talking about eastern - western is getting full traditional dining - well minus TE that is.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

If Eastern trains could be stocked with meals approaching pre-pandemic Acela quality would that satisfy most Eastern sleeper customers?


----------



## cocojacoby

jis said:


> Current rumor is that it will not be normal traditional dining, but more like what used to be SDS with no cooked to order items. But the final disposition has not been decided on yet, so maybe there is hope. The basic theory seems to be that they do not want to go back to a fully staffed Diner.



If the diners are considered "First Class" space and they only serve sleeper passengers then they wouldn't need a full server staff, right? Maybe just one or two servers to bring your meal to the table and clean and set up for the next shift? The Meteor frequently has three sleepers but for the most part other trains have one or two sleepers so the staff could be cut quite a bit I would think.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> If the diners are considered "First Class" space and they only serve sleeper passengers then they wouldn't need a full server staff, right? Maybe just one or two servers to bring your meal to the table and clean and set up for the next shift? The Meteor frequently has three sleepers but for the most part other trains have one or two sleepers so the staff could be cut quite a bit I would think.


Currently Meteor and Lake Shore Limited have three Sleepers, the others except Cardinal have two and Cardinal oscillates between one and two. With the V-IIs fully deployed we would expect all trains except Cardinal to have at least three Sleepers, and a couple maybe Four.

I know the urge to be armchair planners is strong amongst us. I'd say wait three months and see what Amtrak comes up with. The primary problem right now is figuring out how to rebuild the infrastructure to support more elaborate dining options, an infrastructure that was carefully dismantled in a systematic way two to three years back.


----------



## CTANut

Communal dining is also returning (it’s at the bottom of the page)


----------



## Palmetto

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Eastern trains could be stocked with meals approaching pre-pandemic Acela quality would that satisfy most Eastern sleeper customers?



It would for me.


----------



## drdumont

Cal said:


> Is SDS simplified dining, or something similar? And isn't this service similar to what was on the Cardinal or in the CCC's?
> 
> 
> If so, it's still a big upgrade from flex.


Years ago I rode one of he CHI-NY routes. I don't think it was the Cardinal. Left CHI around 2000-2200 hours, IIRC. the salient points I remember about the trip was that the lone sleeper was the first car behind the engine (You could look out the front door and look at the headlight), noisy as Hell. And the "food" service was really bad. You were individually called to the cafe car at a certain time, and were brought a pan of microwaved offal that bore a strong resemblance to the presently offered offal. I remember gathering up the soft drink and packaged brownie, then grabbed a couple of the Heberw National hotdogs and some chips. Denks Gott those hot dogs are still available today. Quite tasty.
and I STILL haven't figured out where they got the term "Flex Dining". The only thing flexible is the cheap plastic cutlery.


----------



## jis

drdumont said:


> Years ago I rode one of he CHI-NY routes. I don't think it was the Cardinal. Left CHI around 2000-2200 hours, IIRC. the salient points I remember about the trip was that the lone sleeper was the first car behind the engine (You could look out the front door and look at the headlight), noisy as Hell. And the "food" service was really bad. You were individually called to the cafe car at a certain time, and were brought a pan of microwaved offal that bore a strong resemblance to the presently offered offal. I remember gathering up the soft drink and packaged brownie, then grabbed a couple of the Heberw National hotdogs and some chips. Denks Gott those hot dogs are still available today. Quite tasty.
> and I STILL haven't figured out where they got the term "Flex Dining". The only thing flexible is the cheap plastic cutlery.


You were on the Lake Shore Limited in the Boston Sleeper which is the first car of the train when there is no Boston Baggage car. This was apparently during the period when Diner had been replaced by SDS delivered from the Cafe on the LSL, due to shortage of Diners in the interim period when Heritage Diners were withdrawn slowly as they came up for major overhaul and Viewliner Diners were getting delayed in delivery. That train did have two other Sleepers at the other end in the New York Section.


----------



## drdumont

jis said:


> You were on the Lake Shore Limited in the Boston Sleeper which is the first car of the train when there is no Boston Baggage car. <SNIP>



Thank you, jis! Never knew the details. I appreciate your effort!


----------



## Cal

CTANut said:


> Communal dining is also returning (it’s at the bottom of the page)


I am very surprised that communal seating will be available starting this month. I'm sure it will cause some problems.


----------



## drdumont

Cal said:


> I am very surprised that communal seating will be available starting this month. I'm sure it will cause some problems.



What problems? I eat in restaurants every day, both table and counter seating. I've had my shots, wear a mask entering and leaving (silly, but it stops the indignant stares from some), and am still as healthy as before.

Likely they will enforce seating separation as do most places nowadays.

Of course, this may cut down on all the seats now unusable as the crews use them for lounges and the attendants use them for storage. I've seen as many as a third of the tables and seats unusable for this reason.
Always annoying.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Eastern trains could be stocked with meals approaching pre-pandemic Acela quality would that satisfy most Eastern sleeper customers?



Probably. I think it’s wrong that Amtrak thinks those traveling on the east coast don’t want cooked to order eggs and a steak dinner but something that approached the quality of Acela first class meals, including presentation, would be a decent compromise.


----------



## Cal

drdumont said:


> What problems? I eat in restaurants every day, both table and counter seating. I've had my shots, wear a mask entering and leaving (silly, but it stops the indignant stares from some), and am still as healthy as before.
> 
> Likely they will enforce seating separation as do most places nowadays.
> 
> Of course, this may cut down on all the seats now unusable as the crews use them for lounges and the attendants use them for storage. I've seen as many as a third of the tables and seats unusable for this reason.
> Always annoying.


Communal dining, to me, means separate parties at one table. I already know that quite a few travelers don't like eating with strangers, so eating with strangers during a pandemic? It does say that you will still be able to eat in your room, but I'm sure some will not realize that you will be seated with others and make a fuss.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It would be great if communal dining became optional from here on. 

If they aren’t going to use the dining car for coach passengers it seems they would have the space to allow for private booths.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> It would be great if communal dining became optional from here on.
> 
> If they aren’t going to use the dining car for coach passengers it seems they would have the space to allow for private booths.


I wouldn't mind that, it would allow you to simply focus on the scenery.


----------



## Sidney

drdumont said:


> Years ago I rode one of he CHI-NY routes. I don't think it was the Cardinal. Left CHI around 2000-2200 hours, IIRC. the salient points I remember about the trip was that the lone sleeper was the first car behind the engine (You could look out the front door and look at the headlight), noisy as Hell. And the "food" service was really bad. You were individually called to the cafe car at a certain time, and were brought a pan of microwaved offal that bore a strong resemblance to the presently offered offal. I remember gathering up the soft drink and packaged brownie, then grabbed a couple of the Heberw National hotdogs and some chips. Denks Gott those hot dogs are still available today. Quite tasty.
> and I STILL haven't figured out where they got the term "Flex Dining". The only thing flexible is the cheap plastic cutlery.


When flexible dining was announced,it meant you could eat anytime you wanted,no reservations needed. I have been on at least ten trains with flex dining over the last two years and I had to make a reservation to pick up the food or come to the diner. Who thought up that term..Anderson?


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> It would be great if communal dining became optional from here on.
> 
> If they aren’t going to use the dining car for coach passengers it seems they would have the space to allow for private booths.


When communal dining returns I really hope they don't pack four strangers to a single table. Side by side is fine for people traveling together,not solo travelers.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Probably. I think it’s wrong that Amtrak thinks those traveling on the east coast don’t want cooked to order eggs and a steak dinner but something that approached the quality of Acela first class meals, including presentation, would be a decent compromise.


You mean the former Acela first class meals - the newly returned Acela meals are currently identical to flexible dining - same exact vendor - minus the tiny salad you get or you can get the covid snack box or a AmCafe burger/hot dog as an alternative. Breakfast is literally identical to flexible dining on the LD trains - the exact same omlette and jimmy dean sandwich. Hopefully they'll go back to better meals on Acela as part of whatever they do to fix the eastern LD meals.

Look farmiliar?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> When communal dining returns I really hope they don't pack four strangers to a single table. Side by side is fine for people traveling together,not solo travelers.



Agreed 100%. I don’t mind sitting across the table from strangers. I do mind sitting uncomfortably close to a stranger. 



lordsigma said:


> You mean the former Acela first class meals -



Yes. DA’s post I was quoting was extremely clear that he was talking about the former Acela First meals.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed 100%. I don’t mind sitting across the table from strangers. I do mind sitting uncomfortably close to a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. DA’s post I was quoting was extremely clear that he was talking about the former Acela First meals.


My bad I missed that. I see it now - sorry about that.


----------



## Dustyroad

Am I reading this correctly?? Or is it a misleading write-up on Amtrak's part?
THREE COURSE DINNER MENU
Served with a complimentary alcoholic beverage; soft beverages are complimentary for the duration of your journey.

Do we get a free glass of wine at dinner for the whole train trip? Sure sounds like it to me. I'll have a glass of white wine Please.


----------



## Sidney

The way it is worded is that you get a free alcholic beverage at every dinner. Wonder if that's right. With flex,you got one free beverage for the length of the trip


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> Am I reading this correctly?? Or is it a misleading write-up on Amtrak's part?
> THREE COURSE DINNER MENU
> Served with a complimentary alcoholic beverage; soft beverages are complimentary for the duration of your journey.
> 
> Do we get a free glass of wine at dinner for the whole train trip? Sure sounds like it to me. I'll have a glass of white wine Please.


I was surprised too. In my eyes, this means that Amtrak is going to put a little effort into LD service


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I was surprised too. In my eyes, this means that Amtrak is going to put a little effort into LD service


They have agreed that the "Experience" has a bit of importance in trains designated as "Experiential", i.e. the 5.5 trains they are working on doing so at present.


----------



## Sidney

It is so refreshing to hear positive comments. Once traditional dining is restored to every long distance train,the mission will be accomplished.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Eastern trains could be stocked with meals approaching pre-pandemic Acela quality would that satisfy most Eastern sleeper customers?



Certainly would satisfy me.
Pre-flex/covid Acela first class meals were actually ok. Maybe the equivalent of some business class domestic legacy carriers in the air. 

I would be very ok with this for Eastern LD trains as well as 65-67 breakfast for sleeper passengers.


----------



## Way2Kewl

While each to their own, I simply can’t find anything appetizing about the flex meals and after several trips trying them all I ended up skipping them all together on my last trip electing to purchases a few cold sandwiches in a small cooler. I found them all nasty. I was trying to stay optimistic that Traditional Dining would be back for my first of July Zephr EMY>CHI trip. I stay a few days at the Harrah’s in Joliet before taking the Eagle back home to Dallas. The posting of the new MENU is relieving for the Zephyr.

With regard to the Eagle 21, it’s scheduled into St Louis station around dinner.
Can anyone confirm if this station has a food court and if so, is it still open and any clue of the options?


----------



## A.H. Rudd

If memory serves, the stop in STL is long enough that you can easily have food delivered to the station. Think St. Louis style ribs from Pappy’s.


----------



## Way2Kewl

A.H. Rudd said:


> If memory serves, the stop in STL is long enough that you can easily have food delivered to the station. Think St. Louis style ribs from Pappy’s.



Where do you meet them? Will they bring it to your train car # outside the door? This sounds like a terrific alternative.


----------



## Cal

Way2Kewl said:


> Where do you meet them? Will they bring it to your train car # outside the door? This sounds like a terrific alternative.


When I had food delivered (once at Albuquerque, once at Tucson) we met them at the front of the station at the drop-off area as they didn't wan to leave their vehicles.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> My bad I missed that. I see it now - sorry about that.


I will say, and I apologize again Crescent Zephyr for my lazy quote earlier not reading far enough back, I can understand Amtrak’s move with Acela going to flex dining. While as a passenger and customer id be happy if they went back to the old Acela meals I can understand the change from a business perspective. The pre pandemic Acela product is a casualty of the pandemic. One of Amtrak’s biggest challenges getting back on its feet is going to be to reimagine the Acela product in a post pandemic world - business travel will never return to what it was - which means Acela must shift gears to leisure - which means lower fares including for first class.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I will say, and I apologize again Crescent Zephyr for my lazy quote earlier not reading far enough back,



No need to apologize - it’s another example of how confusing Amtrak dining is!

It will be interesting to see how business travel evolves in the air as well.


----------



## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> It would be great if communal dining became optional from here on.
> 
> If they aren’t going to use the dining car for coach passengers it seems they would have the space to allow for private booths.





Cal said:


> I wouldn't mind that, it would allow you to simply focus on the scenery.



You can't have your cake and eat it too. Non-communal dining means that you could (in theory) have a party of 1 taking up a full booth. The capacity for the Dining Car would plummet, and the economics of the dining car would get even worse.

I understand some people may not be totally comfortable with it - but they need to put on their "big boy pants" and try it out. Most people (but not all) have a bigger problem with the "idea" of communal seating than the actual communal seating itself.

For those who just truly can't stomach communal dining - you can always eat in your room.


----------



## lordsigma

IndyLions said:


> You can't have your cake and eat it too. Non-communal dining means that you could (in theory) have a party of 1 taking up a full booth. The capacity for the Dining Car would plummet, and the economics of the dining car would get even worse.
> 
> I understand some people may not be totally comfortable with it - but they need to put on their "big boy pants" and try it out. Most people (but not all) have a bigger problem with the "idea" of communal seating than the actual communal seating itself.
> 
> For those who just truly can't stomach communal dining - you can always eat in your room.


I like the communal seating - have met some interesting people.


----------



## neroden

As long as there are still unvaccinated people and a pandemic running rampant among them (it's as bad among the unvaccinated as it has ever been), I'll be eating in my room.

Once the pandemic is actually under control, I'll go back to eating in public.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

IndyLions said:


> For those who just truly can't stomach communal dining - you can always eat in your room.



IndyLions, you make some excellent points, especially about the dining car economics.

I used to love getting out of my room, meeting a variety of people—all different and all interesting—and learn about their different occupations and different areas of the country.

However, I think some of us who used to love communal dining, and may again, are not quite ready for it yet because of the pandemic.

After a year of keeping my distance from everyone, I am just getting used to allowing people within six feet of me on the sidewalk.

I am sure I read way too many of the articles last year about all the disgusting germs people breathe on each other all the time, which I’d never thought about before, and I’m just not ready to have strangers breathing, sneezing, or coughing on my food. (I’m sure some would feel the same about me.) I’m not ready to even go inside a restaurant yet, let alone sit next to a stranger at a meal.

if I traveled now, I would have meals in my room, which is a bit ironic because I never used to because I though the pull-down tables were old and dirty and did not pull them out.


However, I hope to feel differently in another year or so and travel LD again and have meals in the dining car. It’s just an adjustment period some of us are going through more slowly than others.

Heck, if I go any slower, maybe the eastern trains will have real food by the time I’m ready!


----------



## Dustyroad

Mystic River Dragon said:


> IndyLions, you make some excellent points, especially about the dining car economics.
> 
> I used to love getting out of my room, meeting a variety of people—all different and all interesting—and learn about their different occupations and different areas of the country.
> 
> However, I think some of us who used to love communal dining, and may again, are not quite ready for it yet because of the pandemic.
> 
> After a year of keeping my distance from everyone, I am just getting used to allowing people within six feet of me on the sidewalk.
> 
> I am sure I read way too many of the articles last year about all the disgusting germs people breathe on each other all the time, which I’d never thought about before, and I’m just not ready to have strangers breathing, sneezing, or coughing on my food. (I’m sure some would feel the same about me.) I’m not ready to even go inside a restaurant yet, let alone sit next to a stranger at a meal.
> 
> if I traveled now, I would have meals in my room, which is a bit ironic because I never used to because I though the pull-down tables were old and dirty and did not pull them out.
> 
> 
> However, I hope to feel differently in another year or so and travel LD again and have meals in the dining car. It’s just an adjustment period some of us are going through more slowly than others.
> 
> Heck, if I go any slower, maybe the eastern trains will have real food by the time I’m ready!


I feel the same way. I have had my 2 shots of Moderna but I am still taking baby steps about being out in public and I still wear a mask. There is no way I want to take the risk of getting even the lowest case of Covid, or get the flu or cold from some one. So my meals will be brought to my roomette in Sept. And I will be double masked getting to the train and to my roomette. Call me paranoid, but until the percentage of vax people goes up, I will be extra careful. I am traveling this yr because we cancelled last yr.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> The capacity for the Dining Car would plummet, and the economics of the dining car would get even worse.



The dining car capacity has already been lowered sincd they are now only for “passengers in private rooms.” Not sure how the economics would change at all.

As to the “Big Boy Pants” - I feel that is very unnecessary. I’ve eaten in Amtrak and VIA dining cars many times. I would prefer the option of dining alone when I felt like it. One of the many reasons i loved dining in the Parlour Car!


----------



## jis

What can I say? I have already committed the sin of eating my Dinner and Breakfast in the Diner of the Silver Meteor. There was hardly anyone there. The guy across the hall from my Roomette, who kept his door open quite a bit was closer to me than anyone in the Diner. Given the statistics for the vaccinated I don't really feel all that exposed anymore. But then again I don't go out of my way to be in a crowd yet either. If the Diner starts getting crowded there is always the option to retreat to ones Roomette.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> As to the “Big Boy Pants” - I feel that is very unnecessary. I’ve eaten in Amtrak and VIA dining cars many times. I would prefer the option of dining alone when I felt like it. One of the many reasons i loved dining in the Parlour Car!


This. I too have enjoyed meals with others on my LD trips, however sometimes you just want to dine alone or with your own party.


----------



## Dakota 400

While I am fully vaccinated withe Pfizer vaccine, as others have said, I am taking baby steps in being out and about. If I was traveling by train currently, I would take advantage of communal dining because I also enjoy meeting people from different areas of the country, indeed the world, in the dining car. Even before the pandemic, being seated side by side with someone was not something that I would choose to do. Why? Not because of concern about their "germs". but because the seating in those booth seats is "tight" in my opinion.


----------



## lordsigma

Will have quite the comparison on my upcoming trip. Will have flexible dining all the way west on the zephyr and traditional dining coming back on the Chief on the 26th I will make sure I send pictures and thoughts.


----------



## fillyjonk

I took two TE trips recently - 22 on May 18/19, and 21 yesterday/today. Oddly different protocols - on 22, the SCA told me I could either eat dinner in the diner (if it was not too busy) or have it brought to my room (which I did). It was the flex meal, I got the pasta and meatballs, they were not terrible but were not flat-iron steak (and no salad on that run, a cooler fail took out some of the cold things - also no yogurt for breakfast). I ate breakfast in the diner the next day, they were seating people alone or with the groups they were traveling with. It was fine. They were also kinda relaxed about masks.

Coming back, yesterday, we were told: all meals are in your rooms, you can *only* have the mask off if both the door and the curtain are closed (I didn't test that, I just closed the door and curtain). Had the pasta again figuring it was okay the first time, and I was unwilling to try one of the "beef" dishes or the cod. Had oatmeal and yogurt for breakfast and I had to add the hot water myself to the oatmeal (on the trip up, Mark, the dining car guy, brought it already prepared). 

I really hope the full diner is coming back. I want to go back and visit my mom again in July (because I've not been up there in over a year) but it would be really nice to get a proper meal.

It was a regular diner coming up, a CCC coming back - in fact, we had to pick up our breakfasts from the "cafe" car. And all the seating was blocked off


----------



## Palmetto

Travel Amtrak, and expect the unexpected.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fillyjonk said:


> I took two TE trips recently - 22 on May 18/19, and 21 yesterday/today. Oddly different protocols - on 22, the SCA told me I could either eat dinner in the diner (if it was not too busy) or have it brought to my room (which I did). It was the flex meal, I got the pasta and meatballs, they were not terrible but were not flat-iron steak (and no salad on that run, a cooler fail took out some of the cold things - also no yogurt for breakfast). I ate breakfast in the diner the next day, they were seating people alone or with the groups they were traveling with. It was fine. They were also kinda relaxed about masks.
> 
> Coming back, yesterday, we were told: all meals are in your rooms, you can *only* have the mask off if both the door and the curtain are closed (I didn't test that, I just closed the door and curtain). Had the pasta again figuring it was okay the first time, and I was unwilling to try one of the "beef" dishes or the cod. Had oatmeal and yogurt for breakfast and I had to add the hot water myself to the oatmeal (on the trip up, Mark, the dining car guy, brought it already prepared).
> 
> I really hope the full diner is coming back. I want to go back and visit my mom again in July (because I've not been up there in over a year) but it would be really nice to get a proper meal.
> 
> It was a regular diner coming up, a CCC coming back - in fact, we had to pick up our breakfasts from the "cafe" car. And all the seating was blocked off



Amtrak Flex Dining = be flexible because each crew will make up their own rules!!!


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak Flex Dining = be flexible because each crew will make up their own rules!!!


That applies to absolutely any dining on Amtrak, not just Flex. They could just call the whole thing an "Unforgettable Dining Adventure", tongue firmly planted in the cheek of course.


----------



## Dustyroad

lordsigma said:


> Will have quite the comparison on my upcoming trip. Will have flexible dining all the way west on the zephyr and traditional dining coming back on the Chief on the 26th I will make sure I send pictures and thoughts.


Please let us know how they seat passengers in the dining car on the Chief. The menu on the Chief looks really good. And I am very curious about whether they have a coffee pot in the roomette cars for us. 
Have a wonderful trip.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> One of Amtrak’s biggest challenges getting back on its feet is going to be to reimagine the Acela product in a post pandemic world - business travel will never return to what it was - which means Acela must shift gears to leisure - which means lower fares including for first class.


We all predict the future. We are rarely right. If we could do it reliably, we'd be too rich to care.

It might be that Acela will take more business business from the airlines as the airlines squeeze that passengers - even the big payers - more and more. I was shocked on my last first class trip prior to Covid - seats with no more leg room than coach used to be.


----------



## Oaxacajo

lordsigma said:


> I like the communal seating - have met some interesting people.


If not related, maybe a minimum of two at a dining car table? I think the problem is the "squashing" in of 4 unrelated people.


----------



## Oaxacajo

fillyjonk said:


> I took two TE trips recently - 22 on May 18/19, and 21 yesterday/today. Oddly different protocols - on 22, the SCA told me I could either eat dinner in the diner (if it was not too busy) or have it brought to my room (which I did). It was the flex meal, I got the pasta and meatballs, they were not terrible but were not flat-iron steak (and no salad on that run, a cooler fail took out some of the cold things - also no yogurt for breakfast). I ate breakfast in the diner the next day, they were seating people alone or with the groups they were traveling with. It was fine. They were also kinda relaxed about masks.
> 
> Coming back, yesterday, we were told: all meals are in your rooms, you can *only* have the mask off if both the door and the curtain are closed (I didn't test that, I just closed the door and curtain). Had the pasta again figuring it was okay the first time, and I was unwilling to try one of the "beef" dishes or the cod. Had oatmeal and yogurt for breakfast and I had to add the hot water myself to the oatmeal (on the trip up, Mark, the dining car guy, brought it already prepared).
> 
> I really hope the full diner is coming back. I want to go back and visit my mom again in July (because I've not been up there in over a year) but it would be really nice to get a proper meal.
> 
> It was a regular diner coming up, a CCC coming back - in fact, we had to pick up our breakfasts from the "cafe" car. And all the seating was blocked off




With the door already closed, why in the world would they also demand that the curtain be closed?


----------



## Sidney

Dakota 400 said:


> While I am fully vaccinated withe Pfizer vaccine, as others have said, I am taking baby steps in being out and about. If I was traveling by train currently, I would take advantage of communal dining because I also enjoy meeting people from different areas of the country, indeed the world, in the dining car. Even before the pandemic, being seated side by side with someone was not something that I would choose to do. Why? Not because of concern about their "germs". but because the seating in those booth seats is "tight" in my opinion.


Exactly! Never liked side by side with a stranger. A pretty girl..well I could handle that


----------



## Sidney

lordsigma said:


> Will have quite the comparison on my upcoming trip. Will have flexible dining all the way west on the zephyr and traditional dining coming back on the Chief on the 26th I will make sure I send pictures and thoughts.


Flexible dining and traditional dining are 180 from each other. You will certainly appreciate traditional dining on your return.


----------



## me_little_me

Oaxacajo said:


> With the door already closed, why in the world would they also demand that the curtain be closed?


Because thaee are a number of power-hungry staff who like to make up their own rules. This has always been the case on Amtrak - no consistency. There are Standards Manuals but some Amtrak employees think they are only a suggestion. It has nothing to do with Covid. It has to do with a lack of management on trains.


----------



## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> The dining car capacity has already been lowered sincd they are now only for “passengers in private rooms.” Not sure how the economics would change at all.
> 
> As to the “Big Boy Pants” - I feel that is very unnecessary. I’ve eaten in Amtrak and VIA dining cars many times. I would prefer the option of dining alone when I felt like it. One of the many reasons i loved dining in the Parlour Car!





Cal said:


> This. I too have enjoyed meals with others on my LD trips, however sometimes you just want to dine alone or with your own party.



My “Big Boy Pants” wording was certainly over the top, and maybe a bit rude. So my apologies.

It is perfectly reasonable to prefer dining alone or in a smaller party. Unfortunately, that’s just not going to happen with traditional dining on Amtrak. 

The trains are going to be full, the diners are going to be packed, and they’re not going to double or triple the number of seatings so that people can sit by themselves. It’s just not going to happen.

If you want to eat *in the diner* post-Covid - with rare exceptions it will be communal or nothing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> The trains are going to be full, the diners are going to be packed



The diners are not going to be packed if they are only seating passengers “in private rooms.” 

My hope is that if they aren’t going to let coach passengers use the diner that at least they will offer private tables.


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> It is perfectly reasonable to prefer dining alone or in a smaller party. Unfortunately, that’s just not going to happen with traditional dining on Amtrak.
> 
> The trains are going to be full, the diners are going to be packed, and they’re not going to double or triple the number of seatings so that people can sit by themselves. It’s just not going to happen.
> 
> If you want to eat *in the diner* post-Covid - with rare exceptions it will be communal or nothing.


Yeah, hopefully they continue to allow you eat in your room. I do think it would be reasonable to be allowed to dine alone in the later seating where enough tables are available. Obviously not going to happen most of the time. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> My hope is that if they aren’t going to let coach passengers use the diner that at least they will offer private tables.


I certainly do hope coach will be able to eat in the diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I certainly do hope coach will be able to eat in the diner.



It’s what SHOULD happen, but it doesn’t sound like that will happen. The plan, apparently, is to eventually let coach passengers pre-order the entrees that can be picked up and eaten at their seat.


----------



## Mailliw

For the prices they'll likely charge if Amtrak allows coach passengers to buy diner food they should let them actually eat in the dining car.


----------



## Willbridge

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s what SHOULD happen, but it doesn’t sound like that will happen. The plan, apparently, is to eventually let coach passengers pre-order the entrees that can be picked up and eaten at their seat.


As the coach passengers' dining car reservations were taken last it'll be interesting to learn whether pre-ordering will give we afterthought coach passengers a better choice of mealtimes. Often at the later serving times commonly left over for coach passengers the diner is out of menu items.

I've always enjoyed communal seating, but I grew up with it on trains, in ships, in the Army and in European restaurants. I get the impression that fear of coach passengers or of communal seating is a relatively recent phenomenon, with the exception of course in certain parts of the country of the race issue.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> But it is still a big downgrade from the full traditional dining that used to be there.


Even "that" was a downgrade from when 48 seat diner's had a 4 cooks, 6 waiters and a steward...


Oaxacajo said:


> With the door already closed, why in the world would they also demand that the curtain be closed?


The only reason that sounds plausible is so that people walking by don't see someone not wearing one, even though the door is closed, it might give the message that it's okay not to wear it, even though it is safe with the door closed....just a guess, not certain...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Willbridge said:


> I get the impression that fear of coach passengers or of communal seating is a relatively recent phenomenon, with the exception of course in certain parts of the country of the race issue.



What gave you the impression anyone had a fear of coach passengers or of communal seating?


----------



## zephyr17

In the past few years, I did notice that the number of people kind of freaked out by communal seating had increased. Including one lady that was completely offended at breakfast that I be seated with her (just two of us seated opposite each other, the dining car had just opened) and complained to the LSA that it was "her" table. The LSA said that Amtrak practices communal seating. Then she upped and moved across to the table across the aisle herself and the LSA told her to move back. She didn't go "full Karen" but she really didn't like it and ate and left as fast as she could without saying a word.

She was far from a "Millennial" unless she was very prematurely aged.


----------



## Willbridge

crescent-zephyr said:


> What gave you the impression anyone had a fear of coach passengers or of communal seating?


Some incidents like the one described above. Being told that only First Class passengers would be offered dinner in Train 6 departing Denver unexpectedly late (i.e., so that a meal in the station - the usual solution - wasn't practical). I would have understood being asked to take out the late meal but that was not on offer.

And as noted above it's not that coach passengers were not paying for the meals. And as coach meal reservations were taken last it's not that we were imposing on our betters. In the last two pre-pandemic years the stewards have run out of reservation slots before getting through all the coaches. So we have to ask the journalistic questions.

When was this policy made official?
What was going on in society at that time?
Where was this imposed?
Who were the people affected?
Why was this imposed?


----------



## Rambling Robert

It took ten seconds to think and I’ve liked communal dining ever since. I’ve been on Amtrak since 1975 and have always traveled coach.

Seating four at a table makes sense as does the option to have “room service”. It has been fairly democratic for coach passengers to take a reservation when available in the past.

in two weeks when I travel on the Lakeshore Ltd I plan to order delivered Indian curry and enjoy immensely BUT continuing on the Southwest Chief I’m hoping to have a lovely dinner in the dining car.

If not I’ll order a 2 inch thick steak in KansasCity and hope to have it deliver to the train.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> Yeah, hopefully they continue to allow you eat in your room. I do think it would be reasonable to be allowed to dine alone in the later seating where enough tables are available. Obviously not going to happen most of the time.
> 
> 
> I certainly do hope coach will be able to eat in the diner.


There has always been room service for meals - why would that be discontinued?


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Mailliw said:


> For the prices they'll likely charge if Amtrak allows coach passengers to buy diner food they should let them actually eat in the dining car.



They need to avoid crowding as much as possible. It's much better to limit dining-cars to sleeping-car passengers. Hopefully enough sleeping-car passengers will opt for room service so as to avoid having to seat everyone together in the diner. Sleeping-car attendants need to encourage room service.


----------



## Palmetto

Ferroequinologist said:


> They need to avoid crowding as much as possible. It's much better to limit dining-cars to sleeping-car passengers. Hopefully enough sleeping-car passengers will opt for room service so as to avoid having to seat everyone together in the diner. Sleeping-car attendants need to encourage room service.



Full dining cars in the past were handled by the servers just fine, at least in my experience. Even the twin unit dining car on the _Broadway Limited. _But there were more staff in the dining cars, too. Amtrak seems hell bent on cutting, and service is bound to worsen as a result. Let's put the blame where it is due: on Amtrak management [and not on the coach passengers].


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Full dining cars in the past were handled by the servers just fine, at least in my experience. Even the twin unit dining car on the _Broadway Limited. _But there were more staff in the dining cars, too. Amtrak seems hell bent on cutting, and service is bound to worsen as a result. Let's put the blame where it is due: on Amtrak management [and not on the coach passengers].


I'm pretty sure Ferroequinologist is concerned about "germs", not staffing.


----------



## Dustyroad

Oaxacajo said:


> If not related, maybe a minimum of two at a dining car table? I think the problem is the "squashing" in of 4 unrelated people.


I also would go to the dining room if I knew it would only be my friend and I in the same booth. But like you, not 4 people ''squashed '' together even though I'v had the 2 shots.


----------



## Dustyroad

zephyr17 said:


> In the past few years, I did notice that the number of people kind of freaked out by communal seating had increased. Including one lady that was completely offended at breakfast that I be seated with her (just two of us seated opposite each other, the dining car had just opened) and complained to the LSA that it was "her" table. The LSA said that Amtrak practices communal seating. Then she upped and moved across to the table across the aisle herself and the LSA told her to move back. She didn't go "full Karen" but she really didn't like it and ate and left as fast as she could without saying a word.
> 
> She was far from a "Millennial" unless she was very prematurely aged.


You were very decent to her. She should have stayed in her room to eat.


----------



## deBASHmode

IndyLions said:


> You can't have your cake and eat it too. Non-communal dining means that you could (in theory) have a party of 1 taking up a full booth. The capacity for the Dining Car would plummet, and the economics of the dining car would get even worse.
> 
> I understand some people may not be totally comfortable with it - but they need to put on their "big boy pants" and try it out. Most people (but not all) have a bigger problem with the "idea" of communal seating than the actual communal seating itself.
> 
> For those who just truly can't stomach communal dining - you can always eat in your room.



IndyLions (hello from a born and raised Hoosier!), the info about dining car economics and room service is very helpful, thank you. 

A gentle plea for compassion in our sharing:

For a much larger percentage of the population than people realize, different brain biology (aka neurodiversity) causes things like communal dining to be a nightmare.

Personally, I'm cursed with a neurological condition (misophonia) that makes certain sounds (chewing, crunching and smacking are most common) a living hell to be around. It's not a matter of "tuning it out" - it's how our brains are wired and it can take months or years of therapy most people can't afford to learn adequate coping skills.

Others may be tormented by situations where they are forced to truly interact with strangers as one would be at a 4-person communal table. You never know might be taking a big step by just being on a train journey at all. 

It's not a matter of "big boy pants" for many, and an encouraging approach works better for all populations. 

Thanks for listening,
Bash (looking forward to room service on my Zephyr trip  )


----------



## jis

Willbridge said:


> When was this policy made official?
> What was going on in society at that time?
> Where was this imposed?
> Who were the people affected?
> Why was this imposed?


I cannot vouch for causation, but there is a distinct correlation between the deadline by when the separated F&B P&L had to be made self standing and not using any federal funds for it (end of 2020), and the accelerated reduction in F&B staffing level and the fact that one of the largest cost components of F&B service is staff cost. 

I suspect that the revenues brought in from Coach passengers according to some calculation did not cover the cost of the extra SA needed to serve people beyond the minimum required for Sleeper passengers.

If those correlated events had a causal connection among them then now that that Sword of Democles has been removed things should improve across the board as all that was dismantled can be rebuilt over a little bit of time. So we shall see.

I suspect that the COVID thing just delayed the recovery from the Mica fiasco by tanking revenues across the board with uncertainty about government support to keep the lights on. But that was its net effect. Even absent COVID we would have cycled down to the bottom until md-2020 and then started recovery with the rescission of the Mica clause.

Now one could ask why Congress and RPA and everyone else sat on their thumbs from 2015 to 2020 before actually acting on trying to fix the problem. It may have had something to do with the past experience with "glidepath to self sufficiency" which sort of went away, and people forgot how hard they had to work to make that happen, and what damage it caused while it was around.


----------



## Dustyroad

deBASHmode said:


> IndyLions (hello from a born and raised Hoosier!), the info about dining car economics and room service is very helpful, thank you.
> 
> A gentle plea for compassion in our sharing:
> 
> For a much larger percentage of the population than people realize, different brain biology (aka neurodiversity) causes things like communal dining to be a nightmare.
> 
> Personally, I'm cursed with a neurological condition (misophonia) that makes certain sounds (chewing, crunching and smacking are most common) a living hell to be around. It's not a matter of "tuning it out" - it's how our brains are wired and it can take months or years of therapy most people can't afford to learn adequate coping skills.
> 
> Others may be tormented by situations where they are forced to truly interact with strangers as one would be at a 4-person communal table. You never know might be taking a big step by just being on a train journey at all.
> 
> It's not a matter of "big boy pants" for many, and an encouraging approach works better for all populations.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> Bash (looking forward to room service on my Zephyr trip  )


I'm sorry for your health issue. I also have health issues that prevent me from wanting me to be in close contact with others without my control who might not have been vaccinated. So I ''Will keep my little girl pants on '' until the vax numbers go up higher than they are now.


----------



## Palmetto

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm pretty sure Ferroequinologist is concerned about "germs", not staffing.



Help me out. Where did he say or infer that? I couldn't find a reference.


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> There has always been room service for meals - why would that be discontinued?


I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Help me out. Where did he say or infer that? I couldn't find a reference.


Based on posts s/he has made in the past. And the fact that s/he seems to want everyone to eat in their rooms (said the SCA should encourage that they do).


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Palmetto said:


> Full dining cars in the past were handled by the servers just fine, at least in my experience. Even the twin unit dining car on the _Broadway Limited. _But there were more staff in the dining cars, too. Amtrak seems hell bent on cutting, and service is bound to worsen as a result. Let's put the blame where it is due: on Amtrak management [and not on the coach passengers].



I'm not blaming anyone. With Covid there is a need for social distancing, so it would be safer to have as much space between people as possible in the dining-car. With everything opening up quickly I can see a surge coming. A lot of people here have already expressed their anxiety about sitting with strangers. Covid is not over yet.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.


Nope. Anyone could ask for room service.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.



I am not aware of such a pre Covid policy restricting room service to the handicapped. If there was one, it would be foolish to revive it with the risks posed by group dining with strangers and the anxiety expressed by some people on this site.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Dustyroad said:


> I also would go to the dining room if I knew it would only be my friend and I in the same booth. But like you, not 4 people ''squashed '' together even though I'v had the 2 shots.



Vaccination is not a guarantee that one is immune. You can be vaccinated and still get Covid but chances are that it will be milder. Keep in mind that the dining -car can be noisy and people may speak in a loud voice which will make spreading germs easier.


----------



## Mailliw

I don't see any issue with offering passengers a choice between private dining in their compartments or communal dining in the dining car.


----------



## Dustyroad

Ferroequinologist said:


> I'm not blaming anyone. With Covid there is a need for social distancing, so it would be safer to have as much space between people as possible in the dining-car. With everything opening up quickly I can see a surge coming. A lot of people here have already expressed their anxiety about sitting with strangers. Covid is not over yet.


Here-Here and Thank you.


----------



## jis

Ferroequinologist said:


> Vaccination is not a guarantee that one is immune. You can be vaccinated and still get Covid but chances are that it will be milder. Keep in mind that the dining -car can be noisy and people may speak in a loud voice which will make spreading germs easier.


There are very few iron clad guarantees in life. Having even a concrete roof over your head does not guarantee that a meteorite won't come crashing through it either.

In my thinking, vaccination, specially of the mRNA variety makes COVID for the vaccinated more or less equivalent to the Flu (I posted some concrete computation to show that a while back), and hence it is probably OK to behave like one did in the presence of the Flu over at least my lifetime. Of course that does not deny the fact that in the non-vaccinated subgroup, COVID is raging almost as badly as it was several months back in the general population. Indeed an overwhelming majority of the COVID case statistics now originates in that group. That also does not deny that there can be a very small percentage of breakthrough infections among the vaccinated, generally quite mild or asymptomatic.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

The last time I travelled on Amtrak (Capitol LTD - August 19, 2019), the Flex Dining was in effect. I was solo this trip. I ate in the dining car at a table by myself. I was kinda lonely. I missed having another person to chat with. I've had some really interesting conversations with the communal dining on Amtrak over the years, and have met some nice people and some interesting "characters"!


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.


Anyone in sleepers could get room service. I usually chose the diner, but did room service a couple of times.

The real restrictions were practical. Many attendants would "group" their room service requests into one time period and would want to know if you wanted room service well in advance.


----------



## Dustyroad

If every one would get the Covid shot we wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
Just go get the shot for pete sake and then this horrid disease will get under control.
It's just that simple.


----------



## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> The diners are not going to be packed if they are only seating passengers “in private rooms.”
> 
> My hope is that if they aren’t going to let coach passengers use the diner that at least they will offer private tables.



The only way I can see that diners will not be packed is if there are a large number of sleeping car passengers who decide to eat in their rooms.


----------



## Willbridge

jis said:


> I cannot vouch for causation, but there is a distinct correlation between the deadline by when the separated F&B P&L had to be made self standing and not using any federal funds for it (end of 2020), and the accelerated reduction in F&B staffing level and the fact that one of the largest cost components of F&B service is staff cost.
> 
> I suspect that the revenues brought in from Coach passengers according to some calculation did not cover the cost of the extra SA needed to serve people beyond the minimum required for Sleeper passengers.
> 
> If those correlated events had a causal connection among them then now that that Sword of Democles has been removed things should improve across the board as all that was dismantled can be rebuilt over a little bit of time. So we shall see.
> 
> I suspect that the COVID thing just delayed the recovery from the Mica fiasco by tanking revenues across the board with uncertainty about government support to keep the lights on. But that was its net effect. Even absent COVID we would have cycled down to the bottom until md-2020 and then started recovery with the rescission of the Mica clause.
> 
> Now one could ask why Congress and RPA and everyone else sat on their thumbs from 2015 to 2020 before actually acting on trying to fix the problem. It may have had something to do with the past experience with "glidepath to self sufficiency" which sort of went away, and people forgot how hard they had to work to make that happen, and what damage it caused while it was around.


Thanks for your analysis. I wasn't sure when or why the rules changed. And it wouldn't be such an issue if the refreshment stand down in the basement of Superliners had more variety on two-night trains.

Of course, my problem is that I can recall eating in coach diners and lunch counter cars on long-distance trains that attracted customers rather than raising barriers. And the experiences with "running out" of seating reservations goes back into 2018.


----------



## jpakala

The highlight of our travel on LD trains has been the table partners, such as the couple who had crossed Asia by train through many time zones, another who described their travel on the Orient Express, a British couple who took the QE2 to US and then went from NY to CA and back by train, a couple who were delighted that we were librarians & we had a great discussion, a man returning to FL from ME, and a retired Brooklyn schoolteacher joining her husband in FL because she doesn't like flying down to their vacation home.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> The only way I can see that diners will not be packed is if there are a large number of sleeping car passengers who decide to eat in their rooms.



How many sleepers are any of the western trains carrying? And no dorms right?

It should go without saying more passengers will want to eat in their room. Everyone will adjust “back to normal” at a different speed.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> How many sleepers are any of the western trains carrying? And no dorms right?


2-3, Either all regular sleepers or two with a transdorm I think. You should check railcams to make sure.


----------



## fillyjonk

zephyr17 said:


> Anyone in sleepers could get room service. I usually chose the diner, but did room service a couple of times.
> 
> The real restrictions were practical. Many attendants would "group" their room service requests into one time period and would want to know if you wanted room service well in advance.



Yes, this is correct. Back in 2019, traveling up to Illinois *right after* I found out my dad had died (I was trying to get up there in time to say goodbye), the attendant brought my dinner to my room because I explained I didn't feel like I could face making conversation with other people. (And I tipped him, of course). 

Breakfast - well, I am an early riser and I ventured down to the diner and wound up at a table alone.


----------



## Eric in East County

For our upcoming trip, we’ll probably have most if not all of our meals served to us our bedroom. This is not so much over concerns about “social distancing,” but rather because, as seniors, we prefer to eat our meals at our own pace and without having to feel guilty that we’re keeping other passengers from being seated. 

Eric & Pat


----------



## Palmetto

Cal said:


> I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.




I had a good SCA on a New York-New Orleans trip --until I asked for a salad and crackers to be brought to my room on the second afternoon, somewhere in Mississippi. This was pre-Covid, so attitudes could very well have been different, but yes, it was my understanding back then that the SCA could bring meals to rooms.


----------



## me_little_me

Dustyroad said:


> If every one would get the Covid shot we wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
> Just go get the shot for pete sake and then this horrid disease will get under control.
> It's just that simple.


That's fine for adlts and teens but not for those with smaller children. So it's not that simple but it is simpler.


----------



## me_little_me

Ferroequinologist said:


> I am not aware of such a pre Covid policy restricting room service to the handicapped. If there was one, it would be foolish to revive it with the risks posed by group dining with strangers and the anxiety expressed by some people on this site.


Those who were in handicapped rooms were supposed to be OFFERED room service. Anyone else had to ASK for it. But since Amtrak permits crew to make up their own rules in spite of having written Standards, your mileage would vary.


----------



## IndyLions

Ferroequinologist said:


> They need to avoid crowding as much as possible... It's much better to limit dining-cars to sleeping-car passengers...



Why in the world would this be the case? If your reason is Covid - those who are not comfortable in public yet have the option of eating in their room. 

And there is no current _good reason _to prevent Coach passengers from eating in the Diner as well_._


----------



## IndyLions

Ok - I posted the above after he had already answered that question posed by another member.

I understand completely that a lot of folks still aren’t comfortable going out in public. That will take time to happen.

But others are waiting for Covid to be “over“. I’m afraid that herd immunity will be an elusive achievement unless a bunch of people who are currently hell-bent on not getting vaccinated change their tune.

That means that Covid will likely never be “over“, and will be something we will be dealing with annually just like the flu.


----------



## Dustyroad

me_little_me said:


> That's fine for adlts and teens but not for those with smaller children. So it's not that simple but it is simpler.


 I hope the CDC is working on that to protect our little ones.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Covid-19 vaccine available for 12 and up currently.
Yes there working on the 3 months and up crowd.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Cal said:


> I was not aware of this, I thought that pre-COVID only people with an accessibility issue were able to get room service.





AmtrakBlue said:


> Nope. Anyone could ask for room service.


Anyone could ask and most of the time the SCA would agree but sometimes they would refuse and since Amtrak does not have a purser position you were basically SOL at that point. If you called to complain you might receive a voucher for a future trip with an SCA that may or may not refuse the next request and so on. The SCA would sometimes tell you to go get your meal from the LSA who would then send you empty handed back to the SCA again. Other than handing out vouchers to quiet complaints Amtrak does not seem to have a meaningful corrective process in place for on-board staff that make up their own rules.


----------



## jebr

me_little_me said:


> Those who were in handicapped rooms were supposed to be OFFERED room service. Anyone else had to ASK for it. But since Amtrak permits crew to make up their own rules in spite of having written Standards, your mileage would vary.



I noticed on my last trip (about a week ago) when the LSA (I think) came around to take reservations for the dining car, they also asked "or would you prefer to have dinner in your room?" I opted to have it in my roomette, and my SCA came back around and asked what time I'd like to have dinner and what entree I'd like. I got my food at about the time I asked for it (I think it was a few minutes early - no big deal.) In my opinion, this was the best way to do it - sure, people could always ask, but it's far more welcoming to offer it as an option proactively. I'm not sure if that's just due to COVID, that particular crew, or if it's a new normal, but I sure hope it's a new normal.


----------



## Rambling Robert

IndyLions said:


> Why in the world would this be the case? If your reason is Covid - those who are not comfortable in public yet have the option of eating in their room.
> 
> And there is no current _good reason _to prevent Coach passengers from eating in the Diner as well_._


Agree. I’m traveling coast to coast in two weeks - coach - and the train is nearly full. Amtrak offering dinner reservation might be very sparse. Oh well. 

Amtrak might direct long term dining car “sleeper class” only - BUT I also heard that an alternative is booking dinner reservation with ticket. 

Communal Dining should stay.

In 1902 the Twentieth Century Limited was two hours FASTER than the Lakeshore Ltd today.

Classic train scene:


----------



## Dustyroad

I like the new menu and I'm glad they kept the baked potato for dinner.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Dustyroad said:


> I like the new menu and I'm glad they kept the baked potato for dinner.


That’s the ghost of CEO Anderson changing the menu - rice is WAY CHEAPER and “flys” better.


----------



## Dustyroad

Rambling Robert said:


> That’s the ghost of CEO Anderson changing the menu - rice is WAY CHEAPER and “flys” better.


So true. But they took away the Apple Juice. I can't drink orange juice because of my acid reflux. That's a bummer. I will just by some of the liquid flavors to put in my bottled water and the problem will be solved. There is always a way to get around the ''Cheappy '' situation going on with the train travel situation.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

> In 1902 the Twentieth Century Limited was two hours FASTER than the Lakeshore Ltd today.
> 
> Classic train scene:




And I like the flowers on the table. Bring'em back along with the china and tablecloths!


----------



## F900ElCapitan

crescent-zephyr said:


> How many sleepers are any of the western trains carrying? And no dorms right?
> 
> It should go without saying more passengers will want to eat in their room. Everyone will adjust “back to normal” at a different speed.



1/2 one full sleeper…421/422 one full sleeper
3/4 two full sleepers
5/6 one dorm/transition and 2 full sleepers
7/8 one dorm/transition and 1 full sleeper…27/28 one full sleeper
11/14 one dorm/transition and 2 full sleepers
21/22 one full sleeper


----------



## Michigan Mom

Rambling Robert said:


> Agree. I’m traveling coast to coast in two weeks - coach - and the train is nearly full. Amtrak offering dinner reservation might be very sparse. Oh well.
> 
> Amtrak might direct long term dining car “sleeper class” only - BUT I also heard that an alternative is booking dinner reservation with ticket.
> 
> Communal Dining should stay.
> 
> In 1902 the Twentieth Century Limited was two hours FASTER than the Lakeshore Ltd today.
> 
> Classic train scene:




So much infrastructure development, and more equitable for all, could have happened in this country over the last 60 years. Coulda woulda shoulda.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> And I like the flowers on the table. Bring'em back along with the china and tablecloths!


Yes, bring on a flower girl. Fresh flowers for tables and rooms. A nice arrangement for each coach: Linen table clothes DONE. Thick plastic plates with/Logo - DONE. Ceramic plates - LATER. Oh, and very good food!


----------



## bms

Dustyroad said:


> If every one would get the Covid shot we wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
> Just go get the shot for pete sake and then this horrid disease will get under control.
> It's just that simple.



Totally agree, but I feel bad for people who aren't getting the vaccine. They're the victims of misinformation campaigns by people in power who know better and are lying to them.


----------



## Exvalley

bms said:


> Totally agree, but I feel bad for people who aren't getting the vaccine. They're the victims of misinformation campaigns by people in power who know better and are lying to them.


Actually, the people in power seem to be doing a good job of advocating for the vaccine. But in the day of the internet, it's the people who aren't in power who have a voice. That's normally a good thing - but not if they are spreading misinformation about vaccines.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Exvalley said:


> Actually, the people in power seem to be doing a good job of advocating for the vaccine. But in the day of the internet, it's the people who aren't in power who have a voice. That's normally a good thing - but not if they are spreading misinformation about vaccines.


Not all people in power are doing a good job....


----------



## Dustyroad

bms said:


> Totally agree, but I feel bad for people who aren't getting the vaccine. They're the victims of misinformation campaigns by people in power who know better and are lying to them.


I am sad to say I have two sisters and their families who have not gotten the shots yet. They believe Covid is '' just the flu  ''. I have begged and begged them to get the shot and they won't do it. So I haven't seen them or their new grandkids since the virus has been so bad because of my bad lungs and heart. I will stick to my gun's and pray they don't catch it. Some people just can't be pulled off the Stupid Fence Post.


----------



## cocojacoby

Rambling Robert said:


> Yes, bring on a flower girl. Fresh flowers for tables and rooms. A nice arrangement for each coach: Linen table clothes DONE. Thick plastic plates with/Logo - DONE. Ceramic plates - LATER. Oh, and very good food!



I always thought this was rather silly. I could go to a Dollar Store and buy flowers for the entire diner for less than $10. Not real flowers but better than a complete removal.


----------



## Barb Stout

deBASHmode said:


> A gentle plea for compassion in our sharing:
> 
> For a much larger percentage of the population than people realize, different brain biology (aka neurodiversity) causes things like communal dining to be a nightmare.
> 
> Personally, I'm cursed with a neurological condition (misophonia) that makes certain sounds (chewing, crunching and smacking are most common) a living hell to be around. It's not a matter of "tuning it out" - it's how our brains are wired and it can take months or years of therapy most people can't afford to learn adequate coping skills.
> 
> Others may be tormented by situations where they are forced to truly interact with strangers as one would be at a 4-person communal table. You never know might be taking a big step by just being on a train journey at all.
> 
> It's not a matter of "big boy pants" for many, and an encouraging approach works better for all populations.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> Bash (looking forward to room service on my Zephyr trip  )


Interesting. I have a question that I hope you don't take in any negative way as that is not my intention. Does your own chewing bother you also or just when you hear it from others? I hear my own chewing much louder than other people's chews and have often wondered if others can hear my chewing when it is resounding away within my own head.

Once upon a time, I knew a guy who found whistling and flute-like sounds to be unbearable. Unfortunately, certain people around him were bad enough to deliberately gaslight him by whistling around him in a sneaky fashion (like facing a different direction and in a group of people).


----------



## lizpackslight

We just returned from a trip that included legs on the Crescent and the CONO. It is clear from the situation in New Orleans and Chicago that the service/hospitality industry is still reeling from changes brought about by Covid. So many restaurants are shut down still, and others are working with short staff, or new inexperienced staff. Even our nice hotel in Chicago had no daily housekeeping, no restaurant, coffee stand operating very limited hours. It is a very tough situation and we realized that our expectations when we travel had to adjust.

This was our first Amtrak trip, so I have no "before" to compare with, but I think that the covid situation must be affecting Amtrak as well. I heard a staffer handling baggage in New Orleans sigh that he "wasn't ready for this." I don't know if they are short staffed, or if it is just a shock to go back to full trains, but all staff seemed to be struggling. Cafe car and dining car on CONO were staffed by one person. I don't know if that's normal, but she was struggling (although with a pleasant, cheerful attitude). Cafe car on the Crescent was closed most of the time, and that lady did NOT have a nice disposition. She was so rude to an elderly gentleman that I almost said something, but I feared it would embarrass him more than she already had.

On the CONO we took our meals in the roomette except for breakfast which they asked us all to take in the dining car. We did not have to share with other passengers as she was able to spread us out. There were no omelettes offered. She was struggling to get the microwavable stuff out.

Reading about the coming return to traditional dining is interesting, and I realize it is not coming to CONO or the Crescent, but it seems like a fantasy world compared to the real dining situation on the ground right now.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

jis said:


> There are very few iron clad guarantees in life. Having even a concrete roof over your head does not guarantee that a meteorite won't come crashing through it either.
> 
> In my thinking, vaccination, specially of the mRNA variety makes COVID for the vaccinated more or less equivalent to the Flu (I posted some concrete computation to show that a while back), and hence it is probably OK to behave like one did in the presence of the Flu over at least my lifetime. Of course that does not deny the fact that in the non-vaccinated subgroup, COVID is raging almost as badly as it was several months back in the general population. Indeed an overwhelming majority of the COVID case statistics now originates in that group. That also does not deny that there can be a very small percentage of breakthrough infections among the vaccinated, generally quite mild or asymptomatic.


So what is your point? Take no precuations?


----------



## jis

Ferroequinologist said:


> So what is your point? Take no precuations?


My! You seem to live in a black and white fantasy world, whereas the real world has all shades of grey. 

The point is take appropriate precautions. Do not go overboard. But at the end of the day do what makes you feel comfortable. If hiding under the bed helps your mental health. go for it too.  Just don't expect everyone else to do so too unless you wish to set yourself up for disappointment and in extreme cases - rage.

CDC actually provides pretty good guidance on what is reasonable at this time.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

jis said:


> My! You seem to live in a black and fantasy world, whereas the real world has all shades of grey.
> 
> The point is take appropriate precautions. Do not go overboard. But at the end of the day do what makes you feel comfortable. If hiding under the bed helps your mental health. go for it too.



Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:

_"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _

You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ferroequinologist said:


> Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:
> 
> _"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _
> 
> You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


And do the other transportation companies, the airlines, allow you to sit by yourself (aka social distance yourself from others)?

Amtrak was and may still be doing it limiting where people could sit in the diner. They also offered in room service. In fact, they offered in room service before the pandemic. 

If you're not comfortable with their policy, then don't take the train.


----------



## jis

Ferroequinologist said:


> Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:
> 
> _"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _
> 
> You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


Are you trying to have an argument with what CDC has stated as the current protocol based on something that Cunard has in its policy? Good luck with that. CDC specified protocol does permit the operation of flights with full passenger loads with appropriate precautions, e.g. masking. Take it or leave it.

At the end of the day you don't have to partake in anything that makes you uncomfortable. But that does not mean you get to prevent everyone else from doing what is seen as OK by the CDC.


----------



## Cal

cocojacoby said:


> I always thought this was rather silly. I could go to a Dollar Store and buy flowers for the entire diner for less than $10. Not real flowers but better than a complete removal.


Yep. On my late March trip on the SWC the LSA had put out plastic flowers at all the tables, which led me to believe she was a good LSA. That belief was not true.


----------



## Dustyroad

Barb Stout said:


> Interesting. I have a question that I hope you don't take in any negative way as that is not my intention. Does your own chewing bother you also or just when you hear it from others? I hear my own chewing much louder than other people's chews and have often wondered if others can hear my chewing when it is resounding away within my own head.
> 
> Once upon a time, I knew a guy who found whistling and flute-like sounds to be unbearable. Unfortunately, certain people around him were bad enough to deliberately gaslight him by whistling around him in a sneaky fashion (like facing a different direction and in a group of people).


Shame on those '' gaslighting people. That's were the word bullies 
comes from IMO.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

What's with the "bring back the flowers". As I recall, the tables barely had room to hold our place settings, drinks and the condiments. A flower vase just takes up room on the table without providing nutrition. (waiting for the "eat the flower" comments  )


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> (waiting for the "eat the flower" comments  )


Specially when plastic flowers are involved


----------



## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's with the "bring back the flowers". As I recall, the tables barely had room to hold our place settings, drinks and the condiments. A flower vase just takes up room on the table without providing nutrition. (waiting for the "eat the flower" comments  )



I’m pro-flower!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m pro-flower! View attachment 22823
> View attachment 22824


You can have your flower, if you remove the condiments (I don't need salad dressings, salt, pepper, sugar/sugar substitutes).


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> You can have your flower, if you remove the condiments (I don't need salad dressings, salt, pepper, sugar/sugar substitutes).


I thought there was enough space in that little marked off area by the window for salt and pepper and sugar/sugar substitute and a flower vase. Salad dressing AFAIR were never placed there in the full dining service days. They came separately with the Salad. The business about using a giant basket with everything piled in it was part of the first round of dining service downgrades.


----------



## OBS

lizpackslight said:


> We just returned from a trip that included legs on the Crescent and the CONO. It is clear from the situation in New Orleans and Chicago that the service/hospitality industry is still reeling from changes brought about by Covid. So many restaurants are shut down still, and others are working with short staff, or new inexperienced staff. Even our nice hotel in Chicago had no daily housekeeping, no restaurant, coffee stand operating very limited hours. It is a very tough situation and we realized that our expectations when we travel had to adjust.
> 
> This was our first Amtrak trip, so I have no "before" to compare with, but I think that the covid situation must be affecting Amtrak as well. I heard a staffer handling baggage in New Orleans sigh that he "wasn't ready for this." I don't know if they are short staffed, or if it is just a shock to go back to full trains, but all staff seemed to be struggling. Cafe car and dining car on CONO were staffed by one person. I don't know if that's normal, but she was struggling (although with a pleasant, cheerful attitude). Cafe car on the Crescent was closed most of the time, and that lady did NOT have a nice disposition. She was so rude to an elderly gentleman that I almost said something, but I feared it would embarrass him more than she already had.
> 
> On the CONO we took our meals in the roomette except for breakfast which they asked us all to take in the dining car. We did not have to share with other passengers as she was able to spread us out. There were no omelettes offered. She was struggling to get the microwavable stuff out.
> 
> Reading about the coming return to traditional dining is interesting, and I realize it is not coming to CONO or the Crescent, but it seems like a fantasy world compared to the real dining situation on the ground right now.


It would be helpful if you would pass along your experiences (especially the negative one on board the Crescent) to Amtrak customer service so they are aware of it....Thanks!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I thought there was enough space in that little marked off area by the window for salt and pepper and sugar/sugar substitute and a flower vase. Salad dressing AFAIR were never placed there in the full dining service days. They came separately with the Salad. The business about using a giant basket with everything piled in it was part of the first round of dining service downgrades.



Going back before Amtrak, there were quite a few items on the dinner table in traditional dining cars. The basket never bothered me and I’d rather have that than the 1 tiny package of Heinz ranch dressing (no choice) I got with flex dining.

But, the plastic cups with the cheap bic pens for signing the checks on the western diners did annoy me so we all have our annoyances I guess!


----------



## cocojacoby

lizpackslight said:


> Cafe car on the Crescent was closed most of the time, and that lady did NOT have a nice disposition. She was so rude to an elderly gentleman that I almost said something, but I feared it would embarrass him more than she already had.



I may be all wet in my assumptions here but I was just thinking . . .

I have found the attitude of the dining and cafe car staff just plain unfriendly to outright surly way too often on the Eastern trains. Are these crews mostly based out of New York? I'm going to say it . . . New Yorkers are not the friendliest people on earth.

Reading recent posts, it was said that these employees are making over $40 per hour with everything considered. Add tips to that and most people would think that Amtrak employees would appreciate the job and act accordingly. Now maybe $40+ in New York City isn't that fantastic, but I bet you $40+ is great in Louisiana or Florida.

So if this is the case, maybe Amtrak should consider changing their on-board service employee bases? Don't know if it would be that easy to do but maybe worth the effort. Something needs to be done.


----------



## jis

I was under the impression that the Crescent is staffed out of New Orleans.But things have been changing quite a bit since the last time I looked, so it is quite possible I am wrong.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I was under the impression that the Crescent is staffed out of New Orleans.But things have been changing quite a bit since the last time I looked, so it is quite possible I am wrong.


I thought they were out of New Orleans, too


----------



## Cal

I would think they would rather have one large base out of New York instead of several bases across the east, but hey, what do I know?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cocojacoby said:


> Reading recent posts, it was said that these employees are making over $40 per hour with everything considered.



Amtrak is paying over $40 per hour - the employees aren’t making that. That includes insurance and other expenses that Amtrak has. (They are still over paid if they aren’t doing the basics of their job which includes good customer service skills). 



jis said:


> I was under the impression that the Crescent is staffed out of New Orleans.



It’s both. In the past the dining car was staffed out of nyc and attendants were from New Orleans.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak is paying over $40 per hour - the employees aren’t making that. That includes insurance and other expenses that Amtrak has. (They are still over paid if they aren’t doing the basics of their job which includes good customer service skills).


I was wondering what is included in the $40. If it includes RRRB payments that in itself is quite a chunk. I presume that it includes health insurance etc. or is that all separately handled thought the Union for unionized employees? I am afraid I am not too familiar about how these things work for Unionized employees, having never been one myself.


----------



## TEREB

I’m currently on the northbound Meteor. Just finished lunch. I was excited to try the enchiladas. Let’s just say I’m glad I packed a chicken cutlet sandwich. Worse meal ever. Now, I make my own enchiladas so I know how they should taste. These had a strange taste. Plus everything was mushy. Like mashed potatoes. Roll tasted raw in the center. 

Please bring back the veggie burger!!!


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I would think they would rather have one large base out of New York instead of several bases across the east, but hey, what do I know?


Crescent is crew based out of New Orleans, Silvers out of Miami. Not sure about the LSL, but think it is out of Chicago.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I would think they would rather have one large base out of New York instead of several bases across the east, but hey, what do I know?


Crew bases are relatively inexpensive and can be placed wherever is most convenient, unlike maintenance facilities which are expensive capital investments to set up and expensive also to keep going. None of the reasons for centralizing maintenance facilities really apply to crew bases.


----------



## Dakota 400

TEREB said:


> I’m currently on the northbound Meteor. Just finished lunch. I was excited to try the enchiladas. Let’s just say I’m glad I packed a chicken cutlet sandwich. Worse meal ever. Now, I make my own enchiladas so I know how they should taste. These had a strange taste. Plus everything was mushy. Like mashed potatoes. Roll tasted raw in the center. View attachment 22831
> 
> Please bring back the veggie burger!!!



The meal is quite unappetizing in appearance. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s both. In the past the dining car was staffed out of nyc and attendants were from New Orleans.



I don't know about the dining car, but I do know that my SCA was based/lived in New Orleans.


----------



## willem

Ferroequinologist said:


> Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:
> 
> _"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _
> 
> You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


The Cunard home page has a pop-up that says


> In light of continuing restrictions on international travel we've extended our pause in operations.


Perhaps this renders moot any page discussing dining.

On the other hand, if Cunard were sailing and I were traveling solo on one of the ships, I might rather be at a table with five family members than at a table with five strangers. I'd figure five strangers raises the chances that someone has a disease. Put another way, with members of the same family, if anyone is ill, then likely they all will have been exposed, it's more likely that someone would be symptomatic, and thus the family would be barred.


----------



## Cal

Dakota 400 said:


> The meal is quite unappetizing in appearance.


Are any of them?


----------



## Sidney

No


----------



## Dakota 400

Cal said:


> Are any of them?





Sidney said:


> No



A Swanson Hungry Man frozen dinner looks better than most of the meals being served. Even the inexpensive Banquet frozen dinners look better!


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> I was under the impression that the Crescent is staffed out of New Orleans.But things have been changing quite a bit since the last time I looked, so it is quite possible I am wrong.


This is correct.


----------



## OBS

zephyr17 said:


> Crescent is crew based out of New Orleans, Silvers out of Miami. Not sure about the LSL, but think it is out of Chicago.


This is correct!


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> I was wondering what is included in the $40. If it includes RRRB payments that in itself is quite a chunk. I presume that it includes health insurance etc. or is that all separately handled thought the Union for unionized employees? I am afraid I am not too familiar about how these things work for Unionized employees, having never been one myself.


Health Insurance is handled thru the company so presumably is included in the Average rate quoted.


----------



## Mailliw

Ferroequinologist said:


> Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:
> 
> _"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _
> 
> You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


I love the idea of seating solo travelers together, pandemic or not. It seems like it'd be much less awkward than being seated with a couple.


----------



## Dustyroad

Ferroequinologist said:


> Other transportation companies are cognizant of current health issues. Let me cite the current Cunard Line policy for its ships. The point is that some adjustments need to be made because of the pandemic:
> 
> _"Solo travellers who do not wish to dine independently will have the option to dine with other solo travellers on a socially-distanced table that we will arrange for you on board." _
> 
> You can find the policy stated in Cunaard's "Sailing with Confidence" website.


I'm not trying to argue here but I have sailed and know how packed ships are.
While you are on the Cunard ship you are sailing with how many thousands of other passengers? Who knows how many haven't had the shot. That table wouldn't ease my mind of not getting around infected passengers that don't know they are. Every one has their own steps with what the CDC says is save and letting their confidence take them there.


----------



## daybeers

OBS said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent is crew based out of New Orleans, Silvers out of Miami. Not sure about the LSL, but think it is out of Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> This is correct!
Click to expand...

On 48(6), the dining car attendant was from NY.


----------



## lizpackslight

Our conductor on the Crescent had a distinct New Orleans accent, but I don't know about the rest of the crew.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lizpackslight said:


> Our conductor on the Crescent had a distinct New Orleans accent, but I don't know about the rest of the crew.


During the Pandemic, Seniority ruled who worked, many OBS with much Seniority had to bid Routes and assignments that were not their "Regular " jobs, hence you had " Mixed Crews" based in different Crew Bases working Trains.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> Not all people in power are doing a good job....


Indeed. Bolsonaro and Modi remain powerful despite mostly ignoring the problem. Closer to home DeSantis and Abbot have joined their legislatures signing laws ensuring businesses and organizations will be unable to use vaccination status for purposes of lifting restrictions. These laws will apparently force cruise lines to treat vaccinated travelers as if they were unprotected or risk turning ships into floating petri dishes for the unvaccinated. I believe prior federal law prevents states from imposing similar restrictions on interstate airlines but if I'm wrong it might prevent me from traveling internationally despite being fully vaccinated.


----------



## jis

The situation in India is complex. It is almost certain that BJP and hence Modi will keep winning at the federal level until the Congress Party can rid itself of the Italian Mother doting over her Unwilling Son of the Gandhi dynasty from the leadership of the Party, so that it can rebuild itself with a competent leadership, or the most unlikely coaltion of the opposition Parties who mostly cannot stand each other, materializes In New Delhi, after a not so great performance by BJP in the next Parliamentary election many years away - an unlikely thing in and of itself. COVID is but a blip in all of this as it seems, as things go in India.


----------



## Cal

lizpackslight said:


> Our conductor on the Crescent had a distinct New Orleans accent, but I don't know about the rest of the crew.


 Conductors change every 8-12 hours, they aren't based in an OBS base, they're based somewhere along the route.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

OBS said:


> This is correct!



In the past the Crescent and LSL diners were definitely New York based. That may have changed with flex dining of course.


----------



## zephyr17

lizpackslight said:


> Our conductor on the Crescent had a distinct New Orleans accent, but I don't know about the rest of the crew.


Train and engine service crews work back between set points. Don't know them for the Crescent.

Onboard service crews work round trips on the whole route from an OBS crewbase. That's New Orleans for the Crescent. OBS crews are not subject to the Federal Hours of Service regulations the operating crews are.


----------



## OBS

daybeers said:


> On 48(6), the dining car attendant was from NY.


You are right. The Bos section is crewed from CHI. But until recently the Diner attendant was Chi based as well. Must have changed with tri weekly service. The NY Sleepers/Coach attendant are NY jobs.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> In the past the Crescent and LSL diners were definitely New York based. That may have changed with flex dining of course.


Actually the Crescent Diner jobs went to NOL about 4 years ago. The LSL changed to a Chi job with flex dining, but may have reverted back with the tri weekly service.


----------



## TEREB

Just had the Flex dinner. Beef for hubby and Shrimp for me. Although the beef had the highest sodium content, it wasn’t nearly as salty tasting as the shrimp. Very bad.


----------



## Bob Dylan

TEREB said:


> Just had the Flex dinner. Beef for hubby and Shrimp for me. Although the beef had the highest sodium content, it wasn’t nearly as salty tasting as the shrimp. Very bad. View attachment 22839
> View attachment 22840
> View attachment 22839
> View attachment 22840


That Polenta is replacing Mashed Potatoes on the New "Full Service Menu". It's disgusting, shame on Amtrak!


----------



## IndyLions

For me, the shrimp/sausage is the best of the Flex. I think out of 6 meals to/from FL, I had it 3 times. The only thing I had more frequently was the Brownie / Blondie...My wife had everything once, so I got at least a taste of it all...


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> That Polenta is replacing Mashed Potatoes on the New "Full Service Menu". It's disgusting, shame on Amtrak!


The SAME Polenta?


----------



## IndyLions

Bob Dylan said:


> That Polenta is replacing Mashed Potatoes on the New "Full Service Menu". It's disgusting, shame on Amtrak!


Yeah - the Polenta was very, very poor. I sound like my Dad (God rest his soul and cue up the Progressive commercial) - but thank God the Steak & Baked Potato are coming back...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> The SAME Polenta?


It's Amtrak, so Yes!


----------



## daybeers

OBS said:


> You are right. The Bos section is crewed from CHI. But until recently the Diner attendant was Chi based as well. Must have changed with tri weekly service. The NY Sleepers/Coach attendant are NY jobs.


Yeah, he was a nice guy, Tim. He mentioned he was moved from the other Empire Service/Niagara Falls corridor trains since the frequency was reduced on those.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

OBS said:


> Actually the Crescent Diner jobs went to NOL about 4 years ago. The LSL changed to a Chi job with flex dining, but may have reverted back with the tri weekly service.



That seems about right. That’s about the last time I rode the Crescent - had to say goodbye to the heritage diners


----------



## me_little_me

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's with the "bring back the flowers". As I recall, the tables barely had room to hold our place settings, drinks and the condiments. A flower vase just takes up room on the table without providing nutrition. (waiting for the "eat the flower" comments  )


I'll bite! [Pun intended]

Add as much salt as is in the flex dinners, as much sugar as in the flex breakfasts, and as much artificial ingredients as in the flex lunch and the flowers will taste better than all of them (after microwaving, of course). And probably healthier, too. That's why I never threw out the flex packaging - it was the healthiest part of the meal!


----------



## joelkfla

Bob Dylan said:


> It's Amtrak, so Yes!


But it might be better cooked as a batch in a pot, rather than microwaved or convected (convectionized? convectored?) in a plastic plate with a bunch of other stuff.


----------



## lordsigma

Polenta is just an option on the steak for full service dining - you can still get the good old baked potato. I’ve tried the following flex meals so far: shrimp with lobster sauce, pasta with meatballs, chicken Marsala, and the manicotti (which has been a “special” at times on the eastern trains.) I liked the manicotti the best. But I thought the others were all ok so far. I’d say in order of preference: manicotti is my favorite followed by shrimp with lobster followed by chicken marsala with the pasta taking up the rear (I didn’t think it was disgusting but was the most bland.) disclaimer: I like salt and don’t mind salty foods so I can handle these meals for the most part. I will be eating a whole bunch more of these things on my upcoming trip - probably going to try the braised beef and Cajun shrimp meals.


----------



## TEREB

IndyLions said:


> For me, the shrimp/sausage is the best of the Flex. I think out of 6 meals to/from FL, I had it 3 times. The only thing I had more frequently was the Brownie / Blondie...My wife had everything once, so I got at least a taste of it all...
> 
> Last time I had it, it was good. This time I needed to eat the bread to get rid of the salty taste. I keep shaking my head.
> View attachment 22841


----------



## TEREB

IndyLions said:


> Yeah - the Polenta was very, very poor. I sound like my Dad (God rest his soul and cue up the Progressive commercial) - but thank God the Steak & Baked Potato are coming back...



Returning to the Silvers????? 
I want my veggie burger back. The enchiladas for lunch was beyond bad.


----------



## Cal

TEREB said:


> Returning to the Silvers?????
> I want my veggie burger back. The enchiladas for lunch was beyond bad.


Not that we know of.


----------



## Michigan Mom

lizpackslight said:


> We just returned from a trip that included legs on the Crescent and the CONO. It is clear from the situation in New Orleans and Chicago that the service/hospitality industry is still reeling from changes brought about by Covid. So many restaurants are shut down still, and others are working with short staff, or new inexperienced staff. Even our nice hotel in Chicago had no daily housekeeping, no restaurant, coffee stand operating very limited hours. It is a very tough situation and we realized that our expectations when we travel had to adjust.
> 
> This was our first Amtrak trip, so I have no "before" to compare with, but I think that the covid situation must be affecting Amtrak as well. I heard a staffer handling baggage in New Orleans sigh that he "wasn't ready for this." I don't know if they are short staffed, or if it is just a shock to go back to full trains, but all staff seemed to be struggling. Cafe car and dining car on CONO were staffed by one person. I don't know if that's normal, but she was struggling (although with a pleasant, cheerful attitude). Cafe car on the Crescent was closed most of the time, and that lady did NOT have a nice disposition. She was so rude to an elderly gentleman that I almost said something, but I feared it would embarrass him more than she already had.
> 
> On the CONO we took our meals in the roomette except for breakfast which they asked us all to take in the dining car. We did not have to share with other passengers as she was able to spread us out. There were no omelettes offered. She was struggling to get the microwavable stuff out.
> 
> Reading about the coming return to traditional dining is interesting, and I realize it is not coming to CONO or the Crescent, but it seems like a fantasy world compared to the real dining situation on the ground right now.



Thanks for this report. I am getting the impression that for this summer's travel season, while operators are trying to handle increased demand with less employees... how did that happen anyway, weren't they supposed to keep staff in order to receive the bailout funds? Anyway... looks like we can all expect to pay more, and should probably expect less. No one said life is fair.


----------



## Rambling Robert

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's with the "bring back the flowers". As I recall, the tables barely had room to hold our place settings, drinks and the condiments. A flower vase just takes up room on the table without providing nutrition. (waiting for the "eat the flower" comments  )


Fresh flowers are very affordable and the tall slender vase take nearly no space at all. They are very much a touch of class. One more thing Amtrak can claim that airlines can’t.


----------



## lordsigma

Check your reservations anyone traveling the week of the traditional dining return to see what you’re getting. It may take a couple days for it to phase in fully for each train as OBS crews typically originate from one base. It may not be available from the opposite terminal until the first full crew takes their return trip.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Dustyroad said:


> I'm not trying to argue here but I have sailed and know how packed ships are.
> While you are on the Cunard ship you are sailing with how many thousands of other passengers? Who knows how many haven't had the shot. That table wouldn't ease my mind of not getting around infected passengers that don't know they are. Every one has their own steps with what the CDC says is save and letting their confidence take them there.



There are 2,620 passengers on the Queen Mary (19 decks) which I believe is quite low compared to most ships. Anyway my point is that it really makes no difference whether there are 2,620 (there won't be as they are limiting the number of passengers they accept) or whether there are sixty in a dining car. It only takes one Covid+ plus passenger to cough your way, shout germs your way etc. That's why Amtrak needs to continue some social distancing and why allowing coach passengers in the dining-car is not a good idea. Incidentally, Cunard passengers must be Covid tested prior to boarding, not so on Amtrak so your chance of infection on Amtrak is greater - especially in a dining-car.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

TEREB said:


> Just had the Flex dinner. Beef for hubby and Shrimp for me. Although the beef had the highest sodium content, it wasn’t nearly as salty tasting as the shrimp. Very bad. View attachment 22839
> View attachment 22840
> View attachment 22839
> View attachment 22840



It looks horrific!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

AmtrakBlue said:


> And do the other transportation companies, the airlines, allow you to sit by yourself (aka social distance yourself from others
> Amtrak was and may still be doing it limiting where people could sit in the diner. They also offered in room service. In fact, they offered in room service before the pandemic.
> 
> If you're not comfortable with their policy, then don't take the train.



Air travel presents risks. That's obvious. Of course for international flights a PCR test is required. That is not the case on Amtrak. There are ways of reducing risks. One is social distancing in the dining-car. This option is not possible in the air but it is on Amtrak - and room service to your compartment guarantees even greater safety. Has Amtrak set a policy regarding dining-cars? Will they socially distance? I don't know if they have yet established a policy.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ferroequinologist said:


> Has Amtrak set a policy regarding dining-cars? Will they socially distance? I don't know if they have yet established a policy.


Uh, yeah. They’ve been blocking off tables and seating people by themselves or with their travel companions since sometime last year. On the Cardinal we had to eat in our rooms since it has a diner lite car (1/2 for diner, 1/2 for cafe).
I do not know if this will still be the case when traditional dining returns.


----------



## jiml

Michigan Mom said:


> I am getting the impression that for this summer's travel season, while operators are trying to handle increased demand with less employees... how did that happen anyway, weren't they supposed to keep staff in order to receive the bailout funds? Anyway... looks like we can all expect to pay more, and should probably expect less. No one said life is fair.


Correct, and you need look no further than the airlines:









American, following Delta’s lead, asks employees to volunteer at the airport - The Points Guy


American Airlines is recruiting salaried employees to work at the airport to deliver a reliable operation, as travel comes roaring back with many first-time flyers.




thepointsguy.com





There are several accounts of this in mainstream media as well.


----------



## Exvalley

The headline about the airlines employees volunteering could be misleading to some. Minimum wage rules require an employee to be paid if they are working on behalf of the company. The airlines are asking salaried (and presumably exempt) employees to volunteer to perform duties at the airport that they would not normally be doing. They are still getting paid their salary. They are just being asked to work in a different area or to work more hours. 

Still kind of lousy, but at least the person making $20 per hour is not working for free.


----------



## PME

AmtrakBlue said:


> Uh, yeah. They’ve been blocking off tables and seating people by themselves or with their travel companions since sometime last year. On the Cardinal we had to eat in our rooms since it has a diner lite car (1/2 for diner, 1/2 for cafe).
> I do not know if this will still be the case when traditional dining returns.


My experience over that last 10 days was mixed. On the EB and CS, diner seating was as you describe - blocked off tables and seating by traveling group. On the SWC (which was the first train i took that originated after June 1), seating was not blocked, although we still sat alone or with our traveling group. Maybe something changed then. 

Masks were strictly enforced except when in your sleeper accommodations or dining car. Anywhere else masks were required except when actively eating or drinking. So, in the sightseeing car - mask down, take a sip, mask up until next sip.


----------



## rrdude

Rambling Robert said:


> Fresh flowers are very affordable and the tall slender vase take nearly no space at all. They are very much a touch of class. One more thing Amtrak can claim that airlines can’t.


Bought an Amtrak stainless steel vase off ebay or Amazon a few years back, been bringing my own damn flowers for years now. Some staff luv it, a few, "not so much"... Oh well.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

rrdude said:


> Bought an Amtrak stainless steel vase off ebay or Amazon a few years back, been bringing my own damn flowers for years now. Some staff luv it, a few, "not so much"... Oh well.


Do you bring your wife flowers as often as you take flowers on the trains?


----------



## cocojacoby

Dining car flowers are traditional, and even if passable fakes they are a real touch-of-class that make the diner car experience just a bit more unique. How much can it possibly cost to have a vase of flowers on the tables?


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Check your reservations anyone traveling the week of the traditional dining return to see what you’re getting. It may take a couple days for it to phase in fully for each train as OBS crews typically originate from one base. It may not be available from the opposite terminal until the first full crew takes their return trip.


Just did a mock reservation for the 23rds EB out of Seattle, shows traditional dining, as does the 23rd departure out of Chicago bound for Seattle.


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> Has Amtrak set a policy regarding dining-cars? Will they socially distance? I don't know if they have yet established a policy.


According to the Amtrak website, which isn't 100% reliable, communal dining is returning with traditional dining.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Just did a mock reservation for the 23rds EB out of Seattle, shows traditional dining, as does the 23rd departure out of Chicago bound for Seattle.


I just looked at it myself - on the 23rd - 25th it shows Traditional Dining out of CHI on the Zephyr but Flexible out of EMY until the 26th when it starts showing it both ways - guessing 26th is when the 23rd crew turns. Same on the Builder (Traditional out of SEA), Coast Starlight (Traditional out of LAX), Southwest Chief (Traditional out of LAX), and Sunset (Traditional out of LAX) First traditional on the remote end is 26th for all except SL (it doesn't run that day) first traditional for SL out of NOL is June 28.


----------



## rrdude

AmtrakBlue said:


> Do you bring your wife flowers as often as you take flowers on the trains?


Nope. Good call. I will get her flowers today!


----------



## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m pro-flower! View attachment 22823
> View attachment 22824


Which train is that? I have never been on a train with those kinds of seats in the dining car. I only ever saw booths.


----------



## Amtrak709

I guess I am about to experience my first "taste" with flex dining. Even though I have over 300,000 miles on the trains since the 1960's,
my last Amtrak was in 2018 (long road trip in 2019 and COVID in 2020 kept me away from Amtrak). I'll be on the Crescent tomorrow
in the sleeper ATN-NYP for the sole purpose of seeing the Moynihan Train Hall; and returning on Saturday. Since booking the trip,
I have been reading the discussions (most have been less than positive) about dining; and the sleeper service; and the high cost of sleepers (especially bedrooms which I prefer). For the first time in my 73 years on the rails, I am unclear as to what to expect and apprehensive as to what I may experience. Was hoping to upgrade to a bedroom, but the $1000 bedroom price one way will prevent this. I, however, am a little less apprehensive as the departure gets closer--AS I STILL LOVE BEING ON THE TRAINS.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Barb Stout said:


> Which train is that? I have never been on a train with those kinds of seats in the dining car. I only ever saw booths.



That was on the Crescent. Those were the heritage diners that had the "Temoinsa" rebuilds. They were lovely cars.


----------



## jis

"Timenosa" -> "Temoinsa"


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> "Timenosa" -> "Temoinsa"



Haha! I actually looked up an old post on this site to check the spelling - should have known to check a more reputable source!


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Haha! I actually looked up an old post on this site to check the spelling - should have known to check a more reputable source!


It is an abbreviation for *TE*CNICAS *MO*DULARES E* IN*DUSTRALES *SA *


----------



## TrackWalker

crescent-zephyr said:


> That was on the Crescent. Those were the heritage diners that had the "Temoinsa" rebuilds. They were lovely cars.



Northern Pacific heritage diner on the Lake Shore Limited out of NYC on May 15, 2009. (sans flowers)


----------



## jis

TrackWalker said:


> Northern Pacific heritage diner on the Lake Shore Limited out of NYC on May 15, 2009. (sans flowers)
> View attachment 22852


That is a Temoinsa rebuild.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> According to the Amtrak website, which isn't 100% reliable, communal dining is returning with traditional dining.



Without any social distancing? Have the rules been established?


----------



## Cal

Ferroequinologist said:


> Without any social distancing? Have the rules been established?


"Effective June 23, 2021, the Dining Car will offer communal seating, providing a unique opportunity to dine with a fellow rider. "


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> "Effective June 23, 2021, the Dining Car will offer communal seating, providing a unique opportunity to dine with a fellow rider. "


That's too early from a passenger comfort standpoint. We are just coming out of the pandemic and not everything is dropped yet and a lot of people are still uncomfortable. If it were my decision, I'd wait until late summer to start it. Communal dining should be something reintroduced late, not right off the bat.

The mask policy should be dropped first, then communal dining. This is gonna get weird, folks.

My opinion is from a PR perspective, not a scientific one.


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> That's too early from a passenger comfort standpoint. We are just coming out of the pandemic and not everything is dropped yet. If it were my decision, I'd start I'd wait until late summer.


I agree.


----------



## Mailliw

This is weird. Amtrak can reinstate communal dining on its own, but ditching the mask mandate requires a fresh executive order from President Biden.


----------



## Willbridge

cocojacoby said:


> Dining car flowers are traditional, and even if passable fakes they are a real touch-of-class that make the diner car experience just a bit more unique. How much can it possibly cost to have a vase of flowers on the tables?


Here's late news about the cost of flowers...


----------



## Rambling Robert

Ferroequinologist said:


> There are 2,620 passengers on the Queen Mary (19 decks) which I believe is quite low compared to most ships. Anyway my point is that it really makes no difference whether there are 2,620 (there won't be as they are limiting the number of passengers they accept) or whether there are sixty in a dining car. It only takes one Covid+ plus passenger to cough your way, shout germs your way etc. That's why Amtrak needs to continue some social distancing and why allowing coach passengers in the dining-car is not a good idea. Incidentally, Cunard passengers must be Covid tested prior to boarding, not so on Amtrak so your chance of infection on Amtrak is greater - especially in a dining-car.


I don’t buy the logic of comparing Trains to Ships - it’s apples to oranges. First of all get VAXd NOT just tested. Amtrak is using Lysol as a consultant. Amtrak has high volume air handling. First class dining on Cunard was eight seated to a round table at best BUT THE FLIP SIDE after dinner we all squeezed into elevators. APPLES TO ORANGES. I’ll obviously abide to what Amtrak decides on dining rooms - like masks especially and traveling 100% occupancy in coach. But what if everyone in sleeper has their meal delivered... the dining car would be empty. Sooner or later the dining car will I hope be offered to coach passengers.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Rambling Robert said:


> I don’t buy the logic comparing Trains to Ships is apples to oranges. First of all get VAXd NOT just tested. Amtrak is using Lysol as a consultant. Amtrak has high volume air handling. First class dining on Cunard was eight to a round table at best BUT THE FLIP SIDE after dinner we all squeezed into an elevator. APPLES TO ORANGES. I’ll abide to Amtrak decides, like masks especially. But what if everyone in sleeper has their meal delivered... the dining car would be empty.



Was your Cunard trip pre pandemic? My understanding is that they are just resuming operations. Their website speaks of social distancing at meals. 

Everyone is NOT going to take the vaccine. The US is going to give unused vaccines to foreign countries because there aren't enough US takers. That means that while the pandemic continues there will be Covid+ passengers on Amtrak. Do you advocate operating dining-cars at 100% capacity? 

Even if everyone has room service, there will still be food cooked on board. With social distancing, however, the dining-car can operate with reduced passenger loads. 

It would be inconsistent for the federal government that has promoted safety and social distancing for over a year to abandon the policy on Amtrak trains.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Cal said:


> I agree.



It will be interesting to see the passenger response. Amtrak will need a clear policy. If not, employees will make up their own rules and I can foresee the sort of aggressive behavior by some passengers that we are seeing on the airlines. Will dining-car personnel squeeze strangers into the same table even if there is plenty of room to spread them out? I've seen this done in the past. Management had better think this out and state their policy clearly in writing. Passengers need to be notified of the policy at the time that they buy tickets and should be advised that they can have room service if they wish.


----------



## Sidney

I certainly hope shoving four strangers at the same table is history. Many times in the past four people were crammed at the same table in an empty diner.

Two across,unless traveling together should be the norm


----------



## railiner

TrackWalker said:


> Northern Pacific heritage diner on the Lake Shore Limited out of NYC on May 15, 2009. (sans flowers)
> View attachment 22852


Thanks for that photo. I have never been in one of those rebuilds, and until now, have never even known of their existence. JMHO, they are very nice, but I think I'd prefer them in their original decor, partly for their heritage design, but also because each road used different and distinctive decor...


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Thanks for that photo. I have never been in one of those rebuilds, and until now, have never even known of their existence. JMHO, they are very nice, but I think I'd prefer them in their original decor, partly for their heritage design, but also because each road used different and distinctive decor...


Unfortunately, the original decor was gone from them long time back during some refurbishment or the other. By the time they got HEP-ed most were already pretty bland.


----------



## Bostonjetset

cocojacoby said:


> Dining car flowers are traditional, and even if passable fakes they are a real touch-of-class that make the diner car experience just a bit more unique. How much can it possibly cost to have a vase of flowers on the tables?


There were decent fakes on the all the tables of the Empire Builder last week. It was nice to have some kind of nicety. They were not present on the Lake Shore Limited though.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Unfortunately, the original decor was gone from them long time back during some refurbishment or the other. By the time they got HEP-ed most were already pretty bland.


Didn't the glass divider's with the etched floral bouquets remain on some of the former CZ Heritage diner's?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Didn't the glass divider's with the etched floral bouquets remain on some of the former CZ Heritage diner's?


For a while. But by the time the Diner fleet came down to 20 or so, they were pretty bland and uniform. There were either Temoinsa or non-Temoinsa. There may have been a stray fixture here or there, but they were not really maintained. Actually there came a point when they simply stopped maintaining them, and finally as they came up for major repairs or had major failures, they were taken off line and Diners were simply removed from trains. Both the LSL and the Star were victims of this phenomenon before the VL-IIs started arriving.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rambling Robert said:


> I don’t buy the logic of comparing Trains to Ships - it’s apples to oranges.



Whenever anyone compares Amtrak dining cars to anything else someone says “apples to oranges” - as if serving food on an Amtrak train exists in some alternate universe.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Well in a alternate universe such as Europe, there once upon a time a cook off of dining cars. A yearly event in which several railway companies would send there best cooks and equipment. There you would see a old fashion railroad county fair. People would be able to sample food from different lines and get to watch a weird show of women in distressed wearing victoria costume getting rescued by railroaders on pump buggies. (_Pump Buggies unknown correct english name. Two people pump downward one at a time cause the 4 wheel railcar to move forward._)

You know back in the day when railroads saw the quality of food they serve as something to bragged about.

I do believe it was in Poland.


----------



## willem

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> pump buggies


It sounds like you mean a handcar, although pump buggy does have a nice ring to it.


----------



## me_little_me

rrdude said:


> Nope. Good call. I will get her flowers today!


Too late. She already hired me as her attorney. I'm asking for everything you have - but you can keep the flowers. She didn't like those artificial ones you gave her nor the ones you stole from the neighbor's yard because they always blamed her for stealing them.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

willem said:


> It sounds like you mean a handcar, although pump buggy does have a nice ring to it.



Not all forum members are American. I’ll meet you in the Conductors Van and see if we can convince the driver to let us ride on the foot plate!


----------



## Danib62

zephyr17 said:


> That's too early from a passenger comfort standpoint. We are just coming out of the pandemic and not everything is dropped yet and a lot of people are still uncomfortable. If it were my decision, I'd wait until late summer to start it. Communal dining should be something reintroduced late, not right off the bat.
> 
> The mask policy should be dropped first, then communal dining. This is gonna get weird, folks.
> 
> My opinion is from a PR perspective, not a scientific one.


Room service is still available as it's always been if someone is not comfortable with communal dining. It would be impossible to give everyone service in the dining car without having communal dining, there simply aren't enough tables.


----------



## zephyr17

Danib62 said:


> Room service is still available as it's always been if someone is not comfortable with communal dining. It would be impossible to give everyone service in the dining car without having communal dining, there simply aren't enough tables.


I know. But they managed through the pandemic without community seating. The diner remains off limits to coach passengers, too. I am suggesting that they retain limited, socially distanced diner seating, that is the current practice, until we are further into the pandemic recovery and people are again more accustomed to closer quarters. Timing it to the lifting of mask requirements makes the most sense to me.

BTW, I like community seating and want it to return.

Of course, room service is more involved with actual meals instead of bowls of reheated dog food. My guess is that initially a lot more people will opt for room service rather than community seating at this early stage. So if this was an attempt to reduce room service demand, my opinion is it will backfire, increasing demand.

I still say it is yet another instance of Amtrak's tone deaf inability to "read the room".


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Danib62 said:


> It would be impossible to give everyone service in the dining car without having communal dining, there simply aren't enough tables.



A superliner has 18 tables. A superliner sleeper has 20 rooms that are sold. So a train with 2 sleepers could easily accommodate private parties at tables. 

Especially right now when there will be more than usual who want to eat in their room.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

willem said:


> It sounds like you mean a handcar, although pump buggy does have a nice ring to it.



Yes that it, however at this fair they called them *draisine*. Which if you dig deep is a form of a handcart, but at some point one is hand powered the other has a motor.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> A superliner has 18 tables. A superliner sleeper has 20 rooms that are sold. So a train with 2 sleepers could easily accommodate private parties at tables.
> 
> Especially right now when there will be more than usual who want to eat in their room.



Side note I am head to Texas this weekend. Have to ride coach to St Louis from Chicago to pick up my roomette to Texas. So some passenger are spending big money to avoid other people it would seem. I am not ready to eat at a table myself, but think that coach passenger should have that choice.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I am not ready to eat at a table myself, but think that coach passenger should have that choice.



Oh I agree. Whenever I would ride in coach I would usually eat in the diner so I agree that it should be offered. 

But since Amtrak has so far decided not to let coach passengers eat in the dining car, it would be nice if the positive was that passengers could expect to be seated at their own table.


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh I agree. Whenever I would ride in coach I would usually eat in the diner so I agree that it should be offered.
> 
> But since Amtrak has so far decided not to let coach passengers eat in the dining car, it would be nice if the positive was that passengers could expect to be seated at their own table.


I was really expecting that coach access to the diner would be restored with community seating.

Since it isn't, I think casual access to the diner by coach passengers is a thing of the past. I know Amtrak is thinking about offering pre paid, pre reserved plans for coach passengers for diner access, but I am afraid that the days of deciding, on the spur of the moment, what the heck, I am sick of the cafe nuke-burger, let's have lunch in the diner look to be gone.

I think it's a shame. I also think it is a mistake. It is handing the Micas of the future a club to beat Amtrak with.

The railroads never restricted coach access to the diner despite it being primarily intended for Pullman passengers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> I was really expecting that coach access to the diner would be restored with community seating.
> 
> Since it isn't, I think casual access to the diner by coach passengers is a thing of the past. I know Amtrak is thinking about offering pre paid, pre reserved plans for coach passengers for diner access, but I am afraid that the days of deciding, on the spur of the moment, what the heck, I am sick of the cafe nuke-burger, let's have lunch in the diner look to be gone.
> 
> I think it's a shame. I also think it is a mistake. It is handing the Micas of the future a club to beat Amtrak with.
> 
> The railroads never restricted coach access to the diner despite it being primarily intended for Pullman passengers.



I agree. I worry that even for sleeper passengers the expectation will be to pre-order meals a week before your trip. That’s not the dining car experience to me but we take what we get (and if it’s better than flex I guess we can be thankful!).


----------



## zephyr17

Anything's better than flex. I think I'd put my cat's expensive prescription food against it.


----------



## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> The railroads never restricted coach access to the diner despite it being primarily intended for Pullman passengers.


Agreed. Some trains had two full diner's...one for coach passenger's, and one for Pullman. Other trains had a choice between a diner and a lunch counter type car. In those cases, both were open to all passenger's. And there were some all-coach streamliner's that had diner's, as well. Barring coach passenger's from the diner's is an Amtrak phenomenon, and fairly recent, at that...


----------



## zephyr17

railiner said:


> Agreed. Some trains had two full diner's...one for coach passenger's, and one for Pullman. Other trains had a choice between a diner and a lunch counter type car. In those cases, both were open to all passenger's. And there were some all-coach streamliner's that had diner's, as well. Barring coach passenger's from the diner's is an Amtrak phenomenon, and fairly recent, at that...


The one instance I can think of where coach passengers were barred was the Super Chief/El Capitan which Santa Fe treated as two separate trains that happened to be coupled together. El Cap passengers were strictly barred from the Super Chief section, but the El Cap had its own full diner as well as the Kachina Coffee Shop on the lower level of the lounge car.


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> I was really expecting that coach access to the diner would be restored with community seating.
> 
> Since it isn't, I think casual access to the diner by coach passengers is a thing of the past. I know Amtrak is thinking about offering pre paid, pre reserved plans for coach passengers for diner access, but I am afraid that the days of deciding, on the spur of the moment, what the heck, I am sick of the cafe nuke-burger, let's have lunch in the diner look to be gone.
> 
> I think it's a shame. I also think it is a mistake. It is handing the Micas of the future a club to beat Amtrak with.
> 
> The railroads never restricted coach access to the diner despite it being primarily intended for Pullman passengers.


As I mentioned in another posting the better long-distance trains offered an economy diner for coach passengers, usually inserted in the consist where it would be a shorter walk than going back to the full-service diner. Passengers chose which they preferred.

There also were name economy trains that operated in conjunction with name first class trains. The head-end traffic that Amtrak got rid of used to make the operation of extra trains feasible. From looking at old menus I would conclude that coach passengers in the "golden age" ate better than first class passengers do now.


----------



## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> The one instance I can think of where coach passengers were barred was the Super Chief/El Capitan which Santa Fe treated as two separate trains that happened to be coupled together. El Cap passengers were strictly barred from the Super Chief section, but the El Cap had its own full diner as well as the Kachina Coffee Shop on the lower level of the lounge car.


That was one example. The two formerly separate trains were combined due to a downturn in business from around 1968 until Amtrak day, except for peak season and holiday periods where they were separated into sections.
Another similar example was the Panama Limited and "Magnolia Star" during the same period. 
A different example was the seasonal ACL and then SCL Florida Special. After coaches were added to it, they ran separate diner's for Pullman and coach passengers. The feature 'Recreation Car' was open to all.

Most of the feature western transcontinental trains had a full diner, and a separate lunch counter type diner, but both were open to all passengers.

PRR had some all-coach streamliner's that had twin-unit diner's...the Trailblazer and the Jeffersonian, on the New York to Chicago run or New York/Washington to St. Louis run, respectively...

There were many other examples of diner hospitality toward coach passenger's....


----------



## Willbridge

railiner said:


> Agreed. Some trains had two full diner's...one for coach passenger's, and one for Pullman. Other trains had a choice between a diner and a lunch counter type car. In those cases, both were open to all passenger's. And there were some all-coach streamliner's that had diner's, as well. Barring coach passenger's from the diner's is an Amtrak phenomenon, and fairly recent, at that...


In early Amtrak days the lunch counters still turned up. I ate in the Ranch car on the _Empire Builder _in September 1971. The _Coast Starlight _of course was an immediate success that swamped the diner. When Amtrak developed some management in LA they found that they had surplus Santa Fe counter-lounges that had run on trains like the _Missionary, _so they put them into the Starlight. They were a big hit but I was warned not to write about it because they hadn't gotten permission from DC.

I have finished reading _Traveling Black _by Dartmouth law prof Mia Bay and it was interesting to learn the history of Jim Crow on the rails. When the eventual Black elites and upper middle class traveled first class they could eat in the dining car but were usually seated at one end of the car. Southern railroads had a curtain in some dining cars that would screen off the Black table/s.

Amtrak has outdone Jim Crow.


----------



## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> The one instance I can think of where coach passengers were barred was the Super Chief/El Capitan which Santa Fe treated as two separate trains that happened to be coupled together. El Cap passengers were strictly barred from the Super Chief section, but the El Cap had its own full diner as well as the Kachina Coffee Shop on the lower level of the lounge car.


When the AutoTrain still fed Coach Passengers,they had their own Diner, as did the Sleeper Passengers.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Bob Dylan said:


> It's Amtrak, so Yes!





Ferroequinologist said:


> Was your Cunard trip pre pandemic? My understanding is that they are just resuming operations. Their website speaks of social distancing at meals.
> 
> Everyone is NOT going to take the vaccine. The US is going to give unused vaccines to foreign countries because there aren't enough US takers. That means that while the pandemic continues there will be Covid+ passengers on Amtrak. Do you advocate operating dining-cars at 100% capacity?
> 
> Even if everyone has room service, there will still be food cooked on board. With social distancing, however, the dining-car can operate with reduced passenger loads.
> 
> It would be inconsistent for the federal government that has promoted safety and social distancing for over a year to abandon the policy on Amtrak trains.


My Cunard experience was a while ago but the elevators were very crowded around meal time - which was my point. I know some five minute covid tests aren’t accurate. 

I was pleased on the two roundtrips I’ve taken on Amtrak during covid. The DownEaster was 50% AND because the cafe was off limits, had food/wine delivered by wait staff. I as a coach passenger tip 20% but on that trip 40%. I heard sleeper class don’t tip well. On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff. On an $1100 train fare $5 that some are leaving is too cheap- especially for the pandemic.

CVS sells a $28 Covid19 test. I might buy one even though they’re not that accurate - but might give some assurance when I arrive at my destination. Coach is 100% with mask on unless consuming food or beverages - AGAIN 100%. I don’t think the dining car should be 100% either.

If the dining car is set to 50% limit AND only 25% full - as democratic as Amtrak normal is, the 25% that’s empty should be filled by coach passengers who want to dine in the dining car.


----------



## 41bridge

I find the elitism on this board sometimes hard to take. Dining pax squawking about non social distancing should have ridden with me on the Capitol #30 last Friday, 6/4, from CHI to ELY. Coach pax here. Every seat was filled in my coach leaving Chicago to South Bend, and nearly full to points east. It was a longer ride than would be needed to eat your dinner in the diner. Coach pax breathe as well as sleeping car pax and we were packed closer than people sitting across a table from one another. Disease doesn’t discriminate based on ticket price. Social distancing went away on Amtrak on 5/23 in coach.


----------



## TEREB

Ferroequinologist said:


> It looks horrific!


It was


----------



## Railspike

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Well in a alternate universe such as Europe, there once upon a time a cook off of dining cars. A yearly event in which several railway companies would send there best cooks and equipment. There you would see a old fashion railroad county fair. People would be able to sample food from different lines and get to watch a weird show of women in distressed wearing victoria costume getting rescued by railroaders on pump buggies. (_Pump Buggies unknown correct english name. Two people pump downward one at a time cause the 4 wheel railcar to move forward._)
> 
> You know back in the day when railroads saw the quality of food they serve as something to bragged about.
> 
> I do believe it was in Poland.


You are correct. There was a day when a train traveler had choices of which train/railroad to take to a specific destination. Many times the choice was made based solely on the quality of food served on a given train.


----------



## jruff001

Bob Dylan said:


> When the AutoTrain still fed Coach Passengers,they had their own Diner, as did the Sleeper Passengers.


The AutoTrain stopped feeding coach passengers?


----------



## Bob Dylan

jruff001 said:


> The AutoTrain stopped feeding coach passengers?


Coach Passengers no.longer have Meals included in their Fares!


----------



## Bostonjetset

Rambling Robert said:


> My Cunard experience was a while ago but the elevators were very crowded around meal time - which was my point. I know some five minute covid tests aren’t accurate.
> 
> I was pleased on the two roundtrips I’ve taken on Amtrak during covid. The DownEaster was 50% AND because the cafe was off limits, had food/wine delivered by wait staff. I as a coach passenger tip 20% but on that trip 40%. I heard sleeper class don’t tip well. On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff. On an $1100 train fare $5 that some are leaving is too cheap- especially for the pandemic.
> 
> CVS sells a $28 Covid19 test. I might buy one even though they’re not that accurate - but might give some assurance when I arrive at my destination. Coach is 100% with mask on unless consuming food or beverages - AGAIN 100%. I don’t think the dining car should be 100% either.
> 
> If the dining car is set to 50% limit AND only 25% full - as democratic as Amtrak normal is, the 25% that’s empty should be filled by coach passengers who want to dine in the dining car.


Wow your Cunard trip must have been a very long time ago if you tipped based on percentages. I sailed with them in 2015 and 2017 and they have adopted a set daily service charge like every other passenger ship line. I think it was $11.50 pppd added to your stateroom at the time I sailed.


----------



## Bostonjetset

41bridge said:


> I find the elitism on this board sometimes hard to take. Dining pax squawking about non social distancing should have ridden with me on the Capitol #30 last Friday, 6/4, from CHI to ELY. Coach pax here. Every seat was filled in my coach leaving Chicago to South Bend, and nearly full to points east. It was a longer ride than would be needed to eat your dinner in the diner. Coach pax breathe as well as sleeping car pax and we were packed closer than people sitting across a table from one another. Disease doesn’t discriminate based on ticket price. Social distancing went away on Amtrak on 5/23 in coach.


I don’t worry so much about social distancing as I’m fully vaxxed. However I don’t think it’s elitist to feel a first class passenger who paid $1000 for an xcountry trip to be treated differently from a coach passenger who could have paid as low as $100 during the latest promo. Amtrak needs to seriously up their first class game. On the Portland section of the EB we had to get breakfast from the cafe car as the diner splits off in Spokane. The attendant said we couldn’t get the breakfast bowl as an included item even though the purchase price was only a dollar more than the breakfast sandwich. That shows how Amtrak feels about their first class passengers.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Bostonjetset said:


> Wow your Cunard trip must have been a very long time ago if you tipped based on percentages. I sailed with them in 2015 and 2017 and they have adopted a set daily service charge like every other passenger ship line. I think it was $11.50 pppd added to your stateroom at the time I sailed.


He comment about tips was on Amtrak, not Cunard


----------



## Bostonjetset

AmtrakBlue said:


> He comment about tips was on Amtrak, not Cunard


He wrote “On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff.”


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Bostonjetset said:


> He wrote “On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff.”


Oops, sorry, I missed that.


----------



## SwedeC

For the first time in many years, we're going to take a LD Amtrak trip - Empire Builder eastbound SEA-CHI, bedroom, mid-August. What's the food outlook for this trip?
Tx, S


----------



## Michigan Mom

Exvalley said:


> The headline about the airlines employees volunteering could be misleading to some. Minimum wage rules require an employee to be paid if they are working on behalf of the company. The airlines are asking salaried (and presumably exempt) employees to volunteer to perform duties at the airport that they would not normally be doing. They are still getting paid their salary. They are just being asked to work in a different area or to work more hours.
> 
> Still kind of lousy, but at least the person making $20 per hour is not working for free.


As a former salaried airline employee, I can tell you that putting in more than 40 hours a week was standard and expected. Especially if you weren't high seniority. I used to joke, sort of, that my hourly rate was 10$.


----------



## tonys96

jis said:


> What are "orphan trains"? What caused you to select just those three?


Trains without the return of traditional dining in a dining car, Western LD trains without a SSL. Trains that do not have the amenities of other trains that connect with them, that go farther than 750 miles also.
I just meant trains that are not given the same stuff as other very comparable trains.
No offense meant by the term "orphan" . Hell, being an adoptee, I was an orphan for a time.


----------



## jis

tonys96 said:


> Trains without the return of traditional dining in a dining car, Western LD trains without a SSL. Trains that do not have the amenities of other trains that connect with them, that go farther than 750 miles also.
> I just meant trains that are not given the same stuff as other very comparable trains.
> No offense meant by the term "orphan" . Hell, being an adoptee, I was an orphan for a time.


No no. Don't get me wrong. I was not worried about the specific term. I was merely trying to understand what it meant in this context.

So all Eastern LD trains are orphan trains then, including the two Silvers, the Cardinal and the LSL and Capitol Ltd., in addition to the ones you listed in your earlier message. Got it.


----------



## Cal

SwedeC said:


> For the first time in many years, we're going to take a LD Amtrak trip - Empire Builder eastbound SEA-CHI, bedroom, mid-August. What's the food outlook for this trip?
> Tx, S


Traditional dining w/ communal seating in the diner and room service. 

The menu is at amtrak.com/traditional-dining


----------



## me_little_me

Rambling Robert said:


> I was pleased on the two roundtrips I’ve taken on Amtrak during covid. The DownEaster was 50% AND because the cafe was off limits, had food/wine delivered by wait staff. I as a coach passenger tip 20% but on that trip 40%. I heard sleeper class don’t tip well. On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff. On an $1100 train fare $5 that some are leaving is too cheap- especially for the pandemic.


If Amtrak staff were paid like cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they aren't so I don't.

If Amtrak staff provided service like cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they don't so I don't.

If Amtrak staff were as nice and attentive as cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they aren't so I don't.


----------



## Bostonjetset

me_little_me said:


> If Amtrak staff were paid like cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they aren't so I don't.
> 
> If Amtrak staff provided service like cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they don't so I don't.
> 
> If Amtrak staff were as nice and attentive as cruise ship staff, I'd tip a lot more. But they aren't so I don't.


THIS!! 

Don’t get me wrong, I DO tip but it’s mostly a small amount like $10 to show appreciation for the porter/attendant/whatever they are now called. Cruise ship workers get tipped much higher as they work for basically peanuts; amounts that wouldn’t even be legal for US based employees. Amtrak workers are quasi-govt union employees with a decent salary, nice pension and RR retirement benefits which are some of the best there are. Not to mention that while pleasant enough I’ve not many any Amtrak employee who went about and beyond to even close to the level as most cruise ship stewards, waiters, and just about anyone.


----------



## me_little_me

Bostonjetset said:


> Not to mention that while pleasant enough I’ve not many any Amtrak employee who went about and beyond to even close to the level as most cruise ship stewards, waiters, and just about anyone.


Don't know if you mean "met any" or met many" but I have met some. Unfortunately, they have been in the minority - too many trips on the Crescent, I guess as they seem to be the worst. Most SCAs are just average, doing what should be done but not going out of their way to help. A few are the champs of Amtrak and I always have sent Amtrak a praise for them and left a bigger tip. Unfortunately, they constitute a distinct few so their efforts really stand out.

Compare that to my cruise experience. Not one SCA (Sleeping cabin attendant) would rate as "average" i.e. doing only what they need to do. All did more than what was asked. So, if I asked for ice once, I got it every day (and appreciated it) even though I really didn't need it that often. They were ALWAYS friendly and smiling and tried to do more for us. 

Most cruise dining staff also went out of their way but I'd say about a quarter of those were only average and that included a few who were not flexible enough to meet our needs. That compares with about a third that were average and another third that were below average among Amtrak waitstaff using typical restaurant dining experience as a guide.


----------



## TEREB

Rambling Robert said:


> I don’t buy the logic of comparing Trains to Ships - it’s apples to oranges. First of all get VAXd NOT just tested. Amtrak is using Lysol as a consultant. Amtrak has high volume air handling. First class dining on Cunard was eight seated to a round table at best BUT THE FLIP SIDE after dinner we all squeezed into elevators. APPLES TO ORANGES. I’ll obviously abide to what Amtrak decides on dining rooms - like masks especially and traveling 100% occupancy in coach. But what if everyone in sleeper has their meal delivered... the dining car would be empty. Sooner or later the dining car will I hope be offered to coach passengers.


With Flex Meals??? If I was in coach, I’d bring my own food.


----------



## Cal

TEREB said:


> With Flex Meals??? If I was in coach, I’d bring my own food.


They're talking about when traditional dining returns


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Had the Chicken Marsala last night on the Late Shore Limited. It was good and worked for me. Nothing fancy but it hit the spot.

Noticed they added Oatmeal with Apple-spice. Still need to get a plain oatmeal and maybe some hard boiled eggs for those with food issues.

First trip in a long time, was in the 12 room, NS need to work on there switches, very violent wheel action on the south of the lake section.


----------



## lordsigma

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Had the Chicken Marsala last night on the Late Shore Limited. It was good and worked for me. Nothing fancy but it hit the spot.
> 
> Noticed they added Oatmeal with Apple-spice. Still need to get a plain oatmeal and maybe some hard boiled eggs for those with food issues.
> 
> First trip in a long time, was in the 12 room, NS need to work on there switches, very violent wheel action on the south of the lake section.


We’re you on 448/48 or 449/49..


----------



## lordsigma

I had the creole shrimp and andouille sausage last night on 49/449. Acceptable for a one night trip. The diner LSA was very good and brought everything to your table.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

lordsigma said:


> We’re you on 448/48 or 449/49..


4911 car room 12.


----------



## jruff001

Bob Dylan said:


> Coach Passengers no.longer have Meals included in their Fares!


I didn't know that. Haven't been on AT in like 10 years.

I have a trip up north coming up in August - but fortunately in a bedroom!


----------



## Sidney

I'l be using the rail.pass in August and September. I would have gladly purchased a meal from the dining car,but that is not to be. I do have a sleeper in addition to the pass,so I will partake for four days.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> No no. Don't get me wrong. I was not worried about the specific term. I was merely trying to understand what it meant in this context.
> 
> So all Eastern LD trains are orphan trains then, including the two Silvers, the Cardinal and the LSL and Capitol Ltd., in addition to the ones you listed in your earlier message. Got it.


I've been describing them as "red headed stepchildren" based on the way Amtrak mistreats the eastern so-called-long-distance trains versus their actual business potential -- so "orphan" seems appropriate too.


----------



## lordsigma

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> 4911 car room 12.


Was on the same train Boston sleeper room 2.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Rambling Robert said:


> My Cunard experience was a while ago but the elevators were very crowded around meal time - which was my point. I know some five minute covid tests aren’t accurate.
> 
> I was pleased on the two roundtrips I’ve taken on Amtrak during covid. The DownEaster was 50% AND because the cafe was off limits, had food/wine delivered by wait staff. I as a coach passenger tip 20% but on that trip 40%. I heard sleeper class don’t tip well. On Cunard it was 5% tip of the room cost and separate for wait staff. On an $1100 train fare $5 that some are leaving is too cheap- especially for the pandemic.
> 
> CVS sells a $28 Covid19 test. I might buy one even though they’re not that accurate - but might give some assurance when I arrive at my destination. Coach is 100% with mask on unless consuming food or beverages - AGAIN 100%. I don’t think the dining car should be 100% either.
> 
> If the dining car is set to 50% limit AND only 25% full - as democratic as Amtrak normal is, the 25% that’s empty should be filled by coach passengers who want to dine in the dining car.



I doubt that Cunard will allow crowded elevators nowadays. 
Regarding tips, Cunard automatically add a gratuity to your bill which you can have removed if you want. By adding the gratuity everyone gets something. That includes the people who work in the laundry and behind the scenes. Without this system they would be ignored. Many passengers give extra trips to their cabin steward, waiters and possibly wine steward. Just curious, how much do you think is appropriate per night for a sleeping car attendant?


----------



## zephyr17

Ferroequinologist said:


> I doubt that Cunard will allow crowded elevators nowadays.


I don't know. I was recently at a hotel where they had an elevator rule that only members of one party could use the elevator together.

They did absolutely nothing to enforce it and it was thoroughly ignored.

They did enforce a mask requirement in public areas, though.

It was a well known, high end brand.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Sidney said:


> I'l be using the rail.pass in August and September. I would have gladly purchased a meal from the dining car,but that is not to be. I do have a sleeper in addition to the pass,so I will partake for four days.


On.some layovers around 30 minutes or so I plan to schedule food delivery to the train. Does this work? I’d much rather the dining car.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The garlic and herb crusted cod filet with fresh lemon and tartar sauce. Brought to my room with out the lemon or tartar sauce. Server on a very short Texas Eagle (4 cars). Was a disappointment, fish was dry and the rice and carrots were of a microwave version. Not sure if the CCC has the same ability to cook food as the newer Viewliner 2 Dinners. This meal was much more of a TV dinner type, and unlike the LSL, it was served without a roll.


----------



## cocojacoby

On eastern trains I suppose things would not be so bad if Amtrak kept the "First Class" dining for sleeper passengers (who are paying much more money) and also kept a decent Amcafe/Lounge car attached for coach passengers to buy meals and drinks and eat there like civilized human beings. Also maybe the option to purchase better meals at a dining car take-out window and bring them back to the Amcafe/Lounge car.

But Amtrak still seems adamant on going with one food service car which means coach passengers have no where to eat at a table but must go back to their seat to eat. I find that unacceptable. My seatmate may not appreciate the smell of my shrimps in lobster sauce or may even be allergic to something I am easting. Plus can you imagine the odor of all those dirty plates and flatware sitting in the trash containers for the day?

The one food service car thing really bothers me.


----------



## joelkfla

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> View attachment 22904
> 
> The garlic and herb crusted cod filet with fresh lemon and tartar sauce. Brought to my room with out the lemon or tartar sauce. Server on a very short Texas Eagle (4 cars). Was a disappointment, fish was dry and the rice and carrots were of a microwave version. Not sure if the CCC has the same ability to cook food as the newer Viewliner 2 Dinners. This meal was much more of a TV dinner type, and unlike the LSL, server without a roll.


Aside from the copious rice, I need a map to figure out what's what on that plate.


----------



## BCL

I was confused because I saw some message saying that there would be no dining cars until later in June 2021, but when I was on the CS yesterday they definitely had a dining car. It was also weird too as we ended up on Capitol Corridor which had a cafe car announcement, although I saw something saying it hadn't been restored.

We walked into the dining car and although it was closed, there were definitely dining car attendants. Or was this just for the flexible dining service where they would need the car to do the cooking?









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com



*Service Change*​Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended through June 22, 2021 on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Prior to June 23, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service. Visit the informational pages for flexible dining and Café service for more details and sample menus.​


----------



## zephyr17

No train lost its dining car, including the Starlight. They just served flex meals in it.

Not sure about the staffing levels during flex, but I understand they were reduced. I don't know, but perhaps some of those attendants were recalled from furlough in anticipation of the return of full dining service.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Did not get to try the chicken marsala for lunch on the Texas Eagle. The LSA was not serving lunch into 1300 hours, deliver to your room at 1230 hours. The train arrived 53 minutes early to Fort Worth. It would of been interesting to compare the two. The guy on the LSL was a 25 year veteran, with a newer equipped gallery. The Texas Eagle was staff with recently recalled employees, with older equipment.

Anyways in recap it’s eatable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

BCL said:


> We walked into the dining car and although it was closed, there were definitely dining car attendants. Or was this just for the flexible dining service where they would need the car to do the cooking?



I think the superliner trains still had an LSA and a crew member in the kitchen. Of course that means they could have kept the chef but that’s another debate. 

You probably saw other Amtrak staff hanging out... the diner and cafe cars seem to be crew lounges more than anything else on Amtrak.


----------



## Rambling Robert

If they book dinner reservations when you book a seat - will it work - that’d be great! Realizing no guarantee.

OCTOBER 2020/Coach
pics of the DownEaster food delivered from Cafe (closed) to my seat by contracted wait staff. Burgers were tasty with a Merlot and the Red Hots (hotdogs) that’s a Maine classic and the Whoopie Pie is the official state snack.

Parked at Wells ME Transpotation Center - literally on interstate. I-95 - you can park up to 4 days free or longer with station okay. 

I talked about this trip for weeks.


----------



## Mailliw

Back to the subject of dining; hypothetically if Amtrak were to offer a sleeper fare option w/o meals included how big a discount would there need to be for it to be worthwhile?


----------



## zephyr17

Well, I was riding when Amtrak started including meals. The fares rose roughly by the costs of two meals per room for all meal periods during the trip segment when they started it. The meals were never "complimentary"

I'd subtract the same about the same amount, call it $90/full day (20x2 dinner, 15x2 lunch, 10x2 breakfast).


----------



## Bostonjetset

Mailliw said:


> Back to the subject of dining; hypothetically if Amtrak were to offer a sleeper fare option w/o meals included how big a discount would there need to be for it to be worthwhile?


I would say at least a couple hundred less. Not just for the cost of the food but for the inconvenience of having to carry your own. I hate when transportation companies try to “decouple” formerly included items from their fares and say it is so people have a “choice to pay for what they use”. It’s BS unless prices are otherwise fixed. With “dynamic” pricing different people could already be paying hundreds of dollars different. (i.e. Passenger A pays $500 with meals included but Passenger B pays $600 with no meals based on when it was booked and the demand?) It sucks on the airlines and would suck on Amtrak. I only see it working if there is a set price list for tickets regardless of when they are booked (i.e. NYP - MIA is $500 with meals and $400 without meals all the time with no “dynamics” in play).


----------



## zephyr17

Yeah. Fares were not yield managed back when they started including meals in the fares.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah. Fares were not yield managed back when they started including meals in the fares.


But to some extent that may be irrelevant. Whether the Transport and/or Accommodation fare is yield managed or not has nothing to do with inclusion or not of Food component in the fare. The fare is constructed out of three components - Transport, Accommodation and Food. Each can be separately yield managed or not and the sum is the fare that is charged. It would make sense not to do yield management on the food component and just slap it onto the Transport + Accommodation yield managed fare, if that is what they wish.

Afterall until the early '90s Amtrak did not add on a food component to the fare, and even after they started, it was only to the Sleeper fare, not to the Slumbercoach fare. And even now it is not added to the Coach fare (for obvious reasons one might add. Afterall there has to be the ability to actually serve what one is charged for, and clearly Amtrak does not have the wherewithal to meaningfully feed all Coach passengers at the present time.)


----------



## Bostonjetset

jis said:


> But to some extent that may be irrelevant. Whether the Transport and/or Accommodation fare is yield managed or not has nothing to do with inclusion or not of Food component in the fare. The fare is constructed out of three components - Transport, Accommodation and Food. Each can be separately yield managed or not and the sum is the fare that is charged. It would make sense not to do yield management on the food component and just slap it onto the Transport + Accommodation yield managed fare, if that is what they wish.
> 
> Afterall until the early '90s Amtrak did noy add on a food component to the fare, and even after they started, it was only to the Sleeper fare, not to the Slumbercoach fare.


From an accounting standpoint you are correct. From a public relations and optics standpoint I disagree with you though. Unless food was removed from all fares completely and a pre-paid voucher type system was used where people who wanted meals could buy vouchers for them (or something of the sort). 

It leaves a bad taste to offer food-inclusive fares next to non-inclusive fares when a total price is displayed. For example on many airlines they offer “basic” coach fares that don’t even include a carryon. Those fares may be higher than normal inclusive coach fares depending on yield. It’s sucks for everyone but the stockholders. On the other hand most airline first class tickets include all the same things. If they decoupled food and bags it would be a nightmare.


----------



## jis

Bostonjetset said:


> From an accounting standpoint you are correct. From a public relations and optics standpoint I disagree with you though. Unless food was removed from all fares completely and a pre-paid voucher type system was used where people who wanted meals could buy vouchers for them (or something of the sort).
> 
> It leaves a bad taste to offer food-inclusive fares next to non-inclusive fares when a total price is displayed. For example on many airlines they offer “basic” coach fares that don’t even include a carryon. Those fares may be higher than normal inclusive coach fares depending on yield. It’s sucks for everyone but the stockholders. On the other hand most airline first class tickets include all the same things. If they decoupled food and bags it would be a nightmare.


As you noted up front, I was merely stating that as a matter of feasibility of the mechanics there is no problem. I was not commenting on tastes in people's mouths (pun intended), since that is just a matter of ones opinion. And as they say, everyone has at least one ...


----------



## me_little_me

Personally, I think that if meals were decoupled from sleeper prices, the diners would disappear for lack of patronage.

Amtrak does not know how to "sell" their food.

Anyone boarding at a big city i.e. one with lots of passengers for a trip that, for them, would be just about mealtime, would, instead, eat a little bit earlier at a real restaurant especially if they think the train is going to be late. Similarly, why eat shortly before deboarding when you won't feel rushed if you eat at a restaurant a short time later. I particularly mention big cities because Amtrak diner would get hit hard financially if on a particular trip, much fewer than normal would decline the diner.

What if Amtrak pre-sold you a meal and your train was late? A mess to handle along with disappointed passengers either rushed through the meal or eating much later than they want just not getting one and having to ask for a refund.


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> Personally, I think that if meals were decoupled from sleeper prices, the diners would disappear for lack of patronage.


Well, "saving the diners" was one of the major reasons they bundled meals into the sleeper fares in the first place. I know back before that I almost never ate 3 meals a day in the diner, although I usually ate one or two.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Last year the DOT undersecretary was concerned about the profitability of Amtrak food service. Also the October 2019 move to airline food on eastern LH. Then the Spring of 2020 a lot changed.

Now we are just about out of the pandemic. We have a different DOT guy. Food service has been given high marks an attracting new passengers.

A minimum change of allowing coach passengers to book with a tentative meal reservation sounds okay with me. At some point the sleepers’ might go half full allowing coach folks in the diner and then with social distancing of still in effect.

on my little home grown message board topic - over the last few years - I’ve given very high marks to the Amtrak brand. Amtrak Joe has done a lot to boost the morale.


----------



## fdaley

On Sunday we took our first train trip since the pandemic: Freeport to Boston on the Downeaster, then Boston to Albany on 449 with an accessible bedroom.

On our last prior trip (October 2019) with a room on 448, the sleeper attendant gave us a photocopied menu of the flex dining meals and served these in our room. On Sunday's trip, no flex meals were offered. Instead, the SCA gave us the choice of anything on the cafe menu at no charge. I went back to see what they had, as there was no printed menu, and ordered the pizza for my son and sandwiches for my wife and me. Carried the drinks back to our room, and the sleeper attendant brought the food items when they were ready. It was OK for lunch on a five-hour ride, but I was glad to be going home afterward for a real dinner rather than staying aboard for the overnight run to the west. I assume flex meals would have been on offer west of Albany from the NY-leg "sleeper lounge."


----------



## jis

Traditional Dining Service for Eastern LDs and Dining for Coach passengers are on their way - later this year or early next.









Amtrak plans to offer dining-car service to coach passengers, return traditional meals to eastern trains - Trains


CHICAGO — Amtrak plans to again offer dining car meals to coach passengers, and to again offer meals prepared onboard on its eastern overnight trains, as part of coming enhancements to its long-distance operations. Dates and details for the roll-out of those changes are still to come, says...




www.trains.com


----------



## Dustyroad

jis said:


> Traditional Dining Service and Dining for Coach passengers are on their way - later this year or early next.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak plans to offer dining-car service to coach passengers, return traditional meals to eastern trains - Trains
> 
> 
> CHICAGO — Amtrak plans to again offer dining car meals to coach passengers, and to again offer meals prepared onboard on its eastern overnight trains, as part of coming enhancements to its long-distance operations. Dates and details for the roll-out of those changes are still to come, says...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com


I want the apple juice back. Some of us can't tolerate orange juice. Also I was sorry to see the sausage patty go away. But, as long as there is real food again, I am happy  .


----------



## Mailliw

Well good thing the VII diners are still intact!


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Traditional Dining Service and Dining for Coach passengers are on their way - later this year or early next.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak plans to offer dining-car service to coach passengers, return traditional meals to eastern trains - Trains
> 
> 
> CHICAGO — Amtrak plans to again offer dining car meals to coach passengers, and to again offer meals prepared onboard on its eastern overnight trains, as part of coming enhancements to its long-distance operations. Dates and details for the roll-out of those changes are still to come, says...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com


Is the picture of the table what's coming, or is it from 2016? I'm asking because I see flowers

Assuming this article is trustworthy, it seems as if traditional dining is coming back to Eastern trains within a year, which is great. 

I'm becoming more and more optimistic.


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I'm becoming more and more optimistic.


I am, too. To paraphrase Bugs Bunny, maybe Flynn isn't a total maroon.


----------



## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> Traditional Dining Service for Eastern LDs and Dining for Coach passengers are on their way - later this year or early next.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak plans to offer dining-car service to coach passengers, return traditional meals to eastern trains - Trains
> 
> 
> CHICAGO — Amtrak plans to again offer dining car meals to coach passengers, and to again offer meals prepared onboard on its eastern overnight trains, as part of coming enhancements to its long-distance operations. Dates and details for the roll-out of those changes are still to come, says...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com



Wow this far exceeds what I thought Amtrak was capable of at this point in its history. Could it be that they actually listened to riders, railfans and RPA? But yeah, I won't hold my breath on this occurring before next year. Let's thank the removal of the Mica B.S. (I mean, Amendment).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

““And then, once we understand that, we’ll figure out the logistics of what’s going to make sense. Is it opening up the dining room or additional tables for coach customers, or is it more of a take-out kind of menu, or is it a delivery? Those are the things we have to weigh.””

They are still deciding what they will offer coach passengers. 

Also... what happened to the old China? Did they throw it away?


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> ““And then, once we understand that, we’ll figure out the logistics of what’s going to make sense. Is it opening up the dining room or additional tables for coach customers, or is it more of a take-out kind of menu, or is it a delivery? Those are the things we have to weigh.””
> 
> They are still deciding what they will offer coach passengers.
> 
> Also... what happened to the old China? Did they throw it away?


"Did they throw it away?" Most likely...


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> "Did they throw it away?" Most likely...


Yeah, I suspect so. It has been many years. Even the OIG would probably get on their case for keeping so much useless inventory around.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: please limit your discussion in this thread to Amtrak Dining. Thank you for your cooperation. The discussions about porters were removed.


----------



## cocojacoby

Mailliw said:


> Well good thing the VII diners are still intact!



Hell yes!


----------



## fdaley

From the Trains report: "All of this, says Roger Harris, executive vice president, chief marketing and revenue officer, reflects an understanding that premium prices should be accompanied by premium service."

I am not sure how the Amtrak team managed to forget this for the past three years, but I'm glad to see they are remembering the concept of value for price paid. And I'm happy they are at least thinking about how to provide decent meal service to coach passengers. For my own family, it gives me hope that we'll be able to do some train travel beyond the Northeast by sometime next year.


----------



## joelkfla

I'm glad we won't be "overwhelmed by the choices." That's important.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> I'm glad we won't be "overwhelmed by the choices." That's important.



Yeah, because that was a common complaint I’m sure! 

“I just can’t decide between the burger, veggie burger, entree salad and lunch special. Too many decisions!!!!”


----------



## lordsigma

they had a dog and pony show type of thing in Chicago today where they invited media which included displays of the place settings and what not.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> they had a dog and pony show type of thing in Chicago today where they invited media which included displays of the place settings and what not.











Amtrak shows off upgrades to long-distance trains


The spiffed-up coaches and sleeper cars, and improved dining service, will be a big change for a fleet that was decades old — and showing it.




chicago.suntimes.com




Another article


----------



## PaTrainFan

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak shows off upgrades to long-distance trains
> 
> 
> The spiffed-up coaches and sleeper cars, and improved dining service, will be a big change for a fleet that was decades old — and showing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chicago.suntimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another article



Let's hope the removal of the lounges from the Texas Eagle and Capitol are related to these upgrades and are temporary.


----------



## Cal

"The menu isn’t the only thing to getting an upgrade, Jordan said; that food will be served on china again, with real flowers in vases on the tables."

Y'all see that? You're precious flowers are coming back!

They should have also upgraded the overhead racks


----------



## zephyr17

Well, I have to say that if this keeps up, i will abandon my belief that Amtrak is being secretly run by Ben Biaggini's zombie. The campaign to drive off long distance passengers just may be ending.

Now, about those schedules...


----------



## Qapla

How is restoring a service that was removed an "upgrade"?


----------



## Cal

Qapla said:


> How is restoring a service that was removed an "upgrade"?


Well many of us weren't counting on traditional dining to be returned at all, it sounds like something that Amtrak might do. 

The fact that it's also coming back with real China, glassware, cloth napkins, and flowers is also a step up as we haven't had those since 2016. It's an upgrade from 2019 traditional dining. 

And the first alcoholic beverage is free with dinner, which is something that hadn't happened in pre-covid traditional dining either, that's an upgrade.


----------



## Rambling Robert

fdaley said:


> On Sunday we took our first train trip since the pandemic: Freeport to Boston on the Downeaster, then Boston to Albany on 449 with an accessible bedroom.
> 
> On our last prior trip (October 2019) with a room on 448, the sleeper attendant gave us a photocopied menu of the flex dining meals and served these in our room. On Sunday's trip, no flex meals were offered. Instead, the SCA gave us the choice of anything on the cafe menu at no charge. I went back to see what they had, as there was no printed menu, and ordered the pizza for my son and sandwiches for my wife and me. Carried the drinks back to our room, and the sleeper attendant brought the food items when they were ready. It was OK for lunch on a five-hour ride, but I was glad to be going home afterward for a real dinner rather than staying aboard for the overnight run to the west. I assume flex meals would have been on offer west of Albany from the NY-leg "sleeper lounge."



I hope you enjoy the longer trips in the future.

Dec 2017 I was westbound on the LakeShore Ltd and decided to make a reservation for the Dining Car. The diner was about half full and I was seated across from a woman a little younger. We immediately traded Amtrak stories. She takes three or four trips NYC to Chicago a year to visit her daughter.

Then the food arrived at our table.

Holy mackerel! The chicken fricassee was EXACTLY like my Mom’s. I mentioned that the family cookbook is like the family bible. My table-mate was very amused.

I wouldn’t be surprised that Amtrak’s kitchen use the Fanny Farmer Cookbook like my Mom’s from the 1800s. The best.

I spoke to a wonderful booking agent who told me linen tablecloths cloths and heavy white plastic plates with the Amtrak logo will be soon changed to white ceramic plates with logo.

May the Spring 2021 virtual NARP/Amtrak conference there were some nay sayers about communal dining. Had I realized the day's events weren’t archive accessible- I would have taken better notes. haha

keep communal dining!!!

On YouTube I comment a lot about Amtrak. Funny thing Amtrak and Smithsonian - I posted a year or so ago - have similarities- riders/visitors a year and budget. 
Smithsonian is free and my last coast to coast I nearly finessed a free trip with the 50th anniversary. You go to the museum to see America and Amtrak you just go!

Thanks. Amtrak.


----------



## Rambling Robert

On the internet there’s plenty of discussion about OJ and Apple juice. 

Both are good but there are truly individual reasons not to take one or the other.

I favor OJ but I’ll vote for both for Amtrak. Who says I’m mixing apples and oranges.


----------



## Cal

Rambling Robert said:


> On the internet there’s plenty of discussion about OJ and Apple juice.
> 
> Both are good but there are truly individual reasons not to take one or the other.
> 
> I favor OJ but I’ll vote for both for Amtrak. Who says I’m mixing apples and oranges.


It changes for me. Right now I could do with a glass of either one.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Yeah, I suspect so. It has been many years. Even the OIG would probably get on their case for keeping so much useless inventory around.


OK, so long story here. I believe the last china used by Amtrak before switching to plastic was the Corelle, which was glass. They sold that off; the staff really didn't like it, because although it doesn't break the first five times you drop it, when it does break, it explodes and is very hard to clean up. I have some of the sold-off surplus.

The thing is, if I remember correctly, the Corelle was introduced along with the new Amtrak "three sheets to the wind" logo. I may be remembering this wrong. So that would mean that the only traditional non-glass Amtrak china had the *old* "pointless arrow" Amtrak logo. I think they haven't decided to go back to that logo (maybe they should), so... yeah they need new china.


----------



## JayPea

Cal said:


> It changes for me. Right now I could do with a glass of either one.


I like both but with diabetes they both contain too much sugar for me. I've found a brand of sugar free apple juice that I like. If I didn't think it would be too much of a pain in the posterior I'd pack a bottle or two on the train with me. Not worth the trouble for me though.


----------



## tonys96

jis said:


> No no. Don't get me wrong. I was not worried about the specific term. I was merely trying to understand what it meant in this context.
> 
> So all Eastern LD trains are orphan trains then, including the two Silvers, the Cardinal and the LSL and Capitol Ltd., in addition to the ones you listed in your earlier message. Got it.


Sure, if that is the way you want to understand it.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> OK, so long story here. I believe the last china used by Amtrak before switching to plastic was the Corelle, which was glass. They sold that off; the staff really didn't like it, because although it doesn't break the first five times you drop it, when it does break, it explodes and is very hard to clean up. I have some of the sold-off surplus.
> 
> The thing is, if I remember correctly, the Corelle was introduced along with the new Amtrak "three sheets to the wind" logo. I may be remembering this wrong. So that would mean that the only traditional non-glass Amtrak china had the *old* "pointless arrow" Amtrak logo. I think they haven't decided to go back to that logo (maybe they should), so... yeah they need new china.


I have some of that Corelle, too.


----------



## jis

Discussion of Amtrak Diner Dinnerware from 2016





__





Diner Dinnerware


Hi, all. A few weeks ago we visited the Corning Museum of Glass here in New York State. This is the factory where Corelle was developed, so the large gift shop sells a lot of discounted and clearance Corelle products. We were very surprised to find a display of nearly a thousand Amtrak plates...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> It changes for me. Right now I could do with a glass of either one.


In the past the Boxed OJ served on Amtrak was of poor quality, while the Apple , and Cranberry Juices were good.

I've missed having the Juices, Coffee (and Ice,alas No More) available in the Sleepers, and hope that Amtrak will once again make these available to Sleeping Car Passengers.


----------



## PVD

I don't know about poor quality, but not the taste profile I prefer. The problem with most fruit juices, even with no added sugars, is the (natural) sugar content is high, and drinking too much will drive up your blood sugar. I was a tall glass a day OJ guy for quite a while, but (sadly) dropping it helped my A1C noticeably. I think, (at least for now on the new VL) the introduction of the hands off style of ice dispenser will solve the ice problem. Hopefully, it will be included in any SL sleeper refresh as well.


----------



## jis

And here is a thread from when SDS was first introduced back in 2011, about ten years back.





__





Simplified Dining service


Which trains have simplified dining service? I thought every LD train except the EB, CONO, and Auto Train has it, but the Amtrak Service Manual appears to portray it as being on a minority of trains by giving it less explanation than the full-service dining. Am I correct?




www.amtraktrains.com





The following thread has a very informative discussion about Dining Capacity, Staffing Levels, what SDS really was when it was introduced, and related matters. Very educational, at least for me...





__





How many sleepers can a diner handle?


Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages. But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Brian Battuello

Good news about the east coast trains, if true. Maybe I'll live long enough to have an actual meal on a Silver Service or the LSL. 

I still miss the wine and cheese party.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> And here is a thread from when SDS was first introduced back in 2011, about ten years back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simplified Dining service
> 
> 
> Which trains have simplified dining service? I thought every LD train except the EB, CONO, and Auto Train has it, but the Amtrak Service Manual appears to portray it as being on a minority of trains by giving it less explanation than the full-service dining. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following thread has a very informative discussion about Dining Capacity, Staffing Levels, what SDS really was when it was introduced, and related matters. Very educational, at least for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many sleepers can a diner handle?
> 
> 
> Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages. But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


Reading through them now! Most of my Amtrak travel has been more recently, I Never got to experience dining when it was at it's best.


----------



## Qapla

Cal said:


> the first alcoholic beverage is free with dinner, which is something that hadn't happened in pre-covid traditional dining either, that's an upgrade.



It is not an upgrade for me as I do not drink alcoholic beverages ... now, if they offered free hot chocolate (the real stuff, not a powder added to hot water) that would be an upgrade!!!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> And here is a thread from when SDS was first introduced back in 2011, about ten years back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simplified Dining service
> 
> 
> Which trains have simplified dining service? I thought every LD train except the EB, CONO, and Auto Train has it, but the Amtrak Service Manual appears to portray it as being on a minority of trains by giving it less explanation than the full-service dining. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following thread has a very informative discussion about Dining Capacity, Staffing Levels, what SDS really was when it was introduced, and related matters. Very educational, at least for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many sleepers can a diner handle?
> 
> 
> Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages. But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com



When Amtrak brought cooked to order food back after SDS I booked a same-day turn on the Crescent from Atlanta to Birmingham to celebrate. Scrambled Eggs for breakfast, steak for dinner! 

Was a a great trip. At the time Amtrak had one of the dining car Servers “turn” in Birmingham so I had the same waiter going both ways.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> And here is a thread from when SDS was first introduced back in 2011, about ten years back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simplified Dining service
> 
> 
> Which trains have simplified dining service? I thought every LD train except the EB, CONO, and Auto Train has it, but the Amtrak Service Manual appears to portray it as being on a minority of trains by giving it less explanation than the full-service dining. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following thread has a very informative discussion about Dining Capacity, Staffing Levels, what SDS really was when it was introduced, and related matters. Very educational, at least for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many sleepers can a diner handle?
> 
> 
> Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages. But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


Just finished reading through them both (I did do some things in between). 

Very informational. It's funny to see some on there talking poorly about traditional dining, oh if they only knew what was to come. 

I wonder how AlanB would rate flex meals!


----------



## me_little_me

See! All you people whined and whined about Amtrak but I knew all along that it was coming back!

Pffftttt! 

Sorry, but as #1 critic of Amtrak's food, I am cautiously hopeful but I'm from Missouri when it comes to Amtrak dining.


----------



## johnmiller

Is anyone scheduled close to the start of regular dining next week? It would be great to hear anyone's reviews!


----------



## cassie225

My husband didn’t care for the traditional dining on the Crescent but that was one of my reasons fir booking Amtrak sleepersI went to Jersey and Atlanta and food was always good, they had grits one time and the cook was from NO, don’t know if they were packaged but he made them taste home made. Won’t go again until traditional dining back, I do plan on going to ATL in July and bringing my own food


----------



## drdumont

YESSS! GRITS on the CRESCENT! Fond memories...

Reminds me of one day in a small diner in Philadelphia. Was joshing with the cook, a wonderful big lady who won my heart when I laughingly remarked how well grits would be with the ham I had ordered. She came back with the ham, red eye gravy, and a BIG helping of grits - lumpy and cooked to perfection. As she put the plate down before me she said " Honey, I'm from Valdosta, and I ALWAYS gots me a box of grits handy!". From that day on, I had grits a different way every time I passed though.


----------



## cocojacoby

Yup, my first grits was on the Crescent in the 70's going back and forth to school (Georgia Tech). Fond memories indeed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

drdumont said:


> YESSS! GRITS on the CRESCENT! Fond memories...
> 
> Reminds me of one day in a small diner in Philadelphia. Was joshing with the cook, a wonderful big lady who won my heart when I laughingly remarked how well grits would be with the ham I had ordered. She came back with the ham, red eye gravy, and a BIG helping of grits - lumpy and cooked to perfection. As she put the plate down before me she said " Honey, I'm from Valdosta, and I ALWAYS gots me a box of grits handy!". From that day on, I had grits a different way every time I passed though.


Having Grits served with Breakfast used to be one of the Signs that you had crossed into the South!

My favorite was on the Southern run Crescent eating Breakast in the Diner on the way to/from Atlanta with Fried Eggs,Ham,Red Eyed GrazzyGrits and Toast( sometimes Biscuits) washed down with lots of freshly brewed Coffee!


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> And here is a thread from when SDS was first introduced back in 2011, about ten years back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simplified Dining service
> 
> 
> Which trains have simplified dining service? I thought every LD train except the EB, CONO, and Auto Train has it, but the Amtrak Service Manual appears to portray it as being on a minority of trains by giving it less explanation than the full-service dining. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following thread has a very informative discussion about Dining Capacity, Staffing Levels, what SDS really was when it was introduced, and related matters. Very educational, at least for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many sleepers can a diner handle?
> 
> 
> Okay, so Amtrak's LD trains aren't as long/don't have as many sleepers as the old LD trains did before Amtrak. Blah blah blah declining demand and equipment shortages. But Amtrak is seeing rising demand, so it would be wise to expand the number of sleepers and coaches on Amtrak's trains (once...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


Hmmm. Looks from that like the first capacity restriction was seating, so that if more people get their meals "takeout" (to their room or to their seat) they should be able to handle more customers with one kitchen. I wonder what the kitchen capacity limits are if fully staffed, assuming that the dining car table count is not considered a limitation anymore due to at-seat dining...


----------



## cocojacoby

neroden said:


> Hmmm. Looks from that like the first capacity restriction was seating, so that if more people get their meals "takeout" (to their room or to their seat) they should be able to handle more customers with one kitchen. I wonder what the kitchen capacity limits are if fully staffed, assuming that the dining car table count is not considered a limitation anymore due to at-seat dining...



The V2s do have a capacity issue. They removed six seats (a table and a half) for accessibility although a wheelchair passenger may never appear. Some kind of clever convertible seating there would be great if possible.

Also we all know that the "setup" table and the table that is used for the crew's personal stuff also needs to be addressed. The loss of these two tables and 8 seats is crazy.

A 48 seat diner becomes a 34 seat diner! That ain't good.


----------



## west point

I have wondered why non perishables are not stored in the baggage car ? A fork lift at certain locations to ferry these items to / from Diner would free up patron spaces ?


----------



## Cal

west point said:


> I have wondered why non perishables are not stored in the baggage car ? A fork lift at certain locations to ferry these items to / from Diner would free up patron spaces ?


I think that would be very inconvenient for everyone involved.


----------



## Palmland

I wonder if the return of china will reduce the many boxes of supplies that clutter the diner not to mention the trash. Or will the ‘china’ be the disposable kind so the waste continues? Do VII diners even have the equipment to wash plates and glasses?


----------



## Cal

Palmland said:


> Do VII diners even have the equipment to wash plates and glasses?


They were ordered when China was still in use, so I would assume so.


----------



## cocojacoby

Pictures of the accessibility area in the new Viewliner diner.

Top left plan shows how it was designed:



Bottom picture shows how it really is with the loss of six seats:


----------



## Rambling Robert

My car is parked for free at the Wells ME station (on I-95) to begin an Amtrak xcountry to southern Calif. Right off I have something to report about food service. The young woman working the cafe car on the DownEaster said she still tries offering service to seated passengers as long as the train isn’t too full. She said “she enjoys doing it”

What spirit !!!


----------



## Steve4031

I will be riding the Coast starlight one week from tomorrow. Will have lunch and dinner in the diner traveling from lax-emy. Then emu chi on CZ. I’ll take pictures as much as I can and report my take and my gf’s take.


----------



## railiner

Rambling Robert said:


> My car is parked for free at the Wells ME station (on I-95) to begin an Amtrak xcountry to southern Calif. Right off I have something to report about food service. The young woman working the cafe car on the DownEaster said she still tries offering service to seated passengers as long as the train isn’t too full. She said “she enjoys doing it”
> 
> What spirit !!!


That’s good to hear…there are a few like that. I would imagine she gets gratuity’s as well…


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> That’s good to hear…there are a few like that. I would imagine she gets gratuity’s as well…



She also makes a lot less than Amtrak LSA’s (Downeaster Staffs Cafe Cars, Not Amtrak).


----------



## Rambling Robert

In October 2020 when the cafe car was closed the waitstaff contracted from a Massachusetts company for the DownEaster. They wore light greenn aprons. Today the cafe gal was in Amtrak colors, she was a sweetheart, as they all were 

lster out of Albany on the LSL I was one of the first to make it to the cafe.. I had dijoitno pizza.a cup of noodles (nuked was too hot) and a sprite. $3 top
There was a yuuuuuge line after me. Meal was okay.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rambling Robert said:


> In October 2020 when the cafe car was closed the waitstaff contracted from a Massachusetts company for the DownEaster. They wore light greenn aprons. Today the cafe gal was in Amtrak colors, she was a sweetheart, as they all were



The Downeaster has switched to Amtrak LSA’s?


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Downeaster has switched to Amtrak LSA’s?


no......


----------



## Cal

Pacific Surfliner is accepting cash again, by the way. Not sure if table seating is open, I didn't check


----------



## flitcraft

Well, good news for apple juice fans. It was available on both the EB and CL earlier this week. Flex dining still, but in the good news, bad news department, by the second night at dinner, four of the flex options were sold out. We were told that they aren't able to get enough to fully stock and Amtrak doesn't want to reship more to the West so they overstock the cafe hot dogs, cheeseburgers and mac and cheese. And that's what everyone ate on the final lunch.

Also in the good news department, they stocked tonic water for G and Ts, though it wasn't listed on the menu. I wondered how many passengers ordered gin neat.


----------



## AmHope

I don't understand the push to make every part of the train accessible since the train itself is so hard to get around for someone who is mobility-impaired anyway. Unless we switch to Brunel Gauge or something I don't see how we could ever make trains truly accessible. 

Better instead to have accessible seating/rooms and accessible bathrooms close to the entrances and just cater all food/drinks/etc.. The wheelchair space in the diner is especially silly as there's no way to GET THERE in a wheelchair. I suppose if someone needs oxygen canisters or something you could use that space to hook them up so they can eat in the diner, but you'd still have to somehow carry all the equipment there, etc. 

My mother (who passed away last week =/ ) was mobility impaired and the last thing she wanted to do was to try to schlep around inside a train.


----------



## cocojacoby

AmHope said:


> I don't understand the push to make every part of the train accessible since the train itself is so hard to get around for someone who is mobility-impaired anyway . . . The wheelchair space in the diner is especially silly as there's no way to GET THERE in a wheelchair.



That's not exactly true. On a single-level consist ONE bedroom on the entire train has the ability for a wheelchair to access the dining car from the first sleeper and only the first sleeper. The other two (?) HP passengers are out of luck. Kind of unfair I guess.

If you are interested here is an idea I had for a Superliner rebuild that better satisfies the ADA requirements for all ADA passengers, adds more revenue space and does not require access to the entire train: 





__





Could Siemens Viaggio be the next sleeper car?


I think ADA requirements would need to be redefined to apply to trainsets, not individual cars in order for future bilevels to be worth it.




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Qapla

Don't get me wrong here - I have mobility issues .... that said, I do not think that all those without mobility issues should be "pushed to the back, as it were, just to accommodate ALL those who may have mobility/disability issues.

I have enough sense to understand that my mobility issues means I cannot do all the things I did when I was younger and more mobile. I do not think that extraordinary measures need to be taken "in case" I would like to do something I can no longer do.

A train only has so much space. While some provision should be made to allow those with mobility issues should be made so we can still ride the train - I do not think that ALL areas of the train NEED to be made accessible to me as long as the actual purpose of the train can be achieved by me - specifically, if I can have a comfortable seat, a window to see out of and access to the restroom and food, I do not need to have that access in every car on the entire train.

To me, it would be much better to have a single train car especially built for ADA and the rest of the train built for those who don't need ADA.


----------



## AmHope

I do like the idea of an ADA sleeper/lounge combo. Of course that leaves out the ADA coach passengers. You could even make the upper floor a first class lounge like the old parlour cars. The lift area could open into a small wheelchair-friendly area immediately in front of the elevator. 

The problem with an ADA-only car is that it adds an entire car to the consist for what could be an empty car. 

Realistically though the physical constraints just make it impossible to try to make a train fully ADA compliant. Nobody demands that airliners allow you to roll your wheelchair around in them. Trains aren't quite as constrained by physics as planes are, but the rail and loading gauges still impose hard limits on what's possible. 

Although like I said earlier, we could just bring back Brunel Gauge and have cars the size of manufactured homes rolling down the rails. Plenty of room then. That would be awesome. =) The tunnels would be darn expensive though!


----------



## lordsigma

On the CS today - some unique aspects in the flexible dining today. They have the flex meals plus a meat or veggie lasagna option which is completely different than the normal flexible meals - looked more like it had been prepared at a comissary and reheated - not the usual flex container. They also had the oven pride cafe car burgers and Hebrew National hot dogs available in the diner as well. The lasagna was pretty good - I should have taken a photo before eating but didn’t think too so there’s the finished container.


----------



## Way2Kewl

fingers crossed in 3 more days "Steak" will be back on the Western LD routes. Along with the many other favorites.


----------



## Cal

Way2Kewl said:


> fingers crossed in 3 more days "Steak" will be back on the Western LD routes. Along with the many other favorites.


Traditional dining won't be back for all western routes on every journey until the 26th. it will only be available on trains leaving from their OBS crew base, so trains #4, #422, #2, #14, #8, #28, and #5


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> On the CS today - some unique aspects in the flexible dining today. They have the flex meals plus a meat or veggie lasagna option which is completely different than the normal flexible meals - looked more like it had been prepared at a comissary and reheated - not the usual flex container. They also had the oven pride cafe car burgers and Hebrew National hot dogs available in the diner as well. The lasagna was pretty good - I should have taken a photo before eating but didn’t think too so there’s the finished container.



Interesting! I wonder if the Lasagnas are heated up in the oven. maybe the coast starlight manager listened to the complaints and ordered some lasagnas and burgers and hot dogs for the diner.


----------



## Way2Kewl

I'll be gone the first weekend in July so that gives them a full week after the 26th to get their groove back. I've rarely had a bad chef. I've rarely had a good FlexMeal. I swear if the Chef's are not back on the Zephyr by the first weekend in July I'm going to have to find/use UberEats at the daytime layovers and pack cold sandwiches for the rest. (I can handle the fast food omelet but still no comparison for the Egg choices once the diners are back in full operations.) Hopefully by my early July departure.


----------



## Cal

Way2Kewl said:


> I'll be gone the first weekend in July so that gives them a full week after the 26th to get their groove back. I've rarely had a bad chef. I've rarely had a good FlexMeal. I swear if the Chef's are not back on the Zephyr by the first weekend in July I'm going to have to find/use UberEats at the daytime layovers and pack cold sandwiches for the rest. (I can handle the fast food omelet but still no comparison for the Egg choices once the diners are back in full operations.) Hopefully by my early July departure.


Traditional dining will definitely be back by July


----------



## lordsigma

My trip home is on 4 on the 26th should have traditional dining will post photos.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> My trip home is on 4 on the 26th should have traditional dining will post photos.


Might be the first one of us to experience it! Hope it's good


----------



## lordsigma

They definitely appear to be using the oven on the superliner trains for flex dining as they usually are coming with a tin cover. My meals on the zephyr all had the tin over the top and seemed more like oven heated than nuked.


----------



## Dustyroad

Steve4031 said:


> I will be riding the Coast starlight one week from tomorrow. Will have lunch and dinner in the diner traveling from lax-emy. Then emu chi on CZ. I’ll take pictures as much as I can and report my take and my gf’s take.


Please let us know if they have coffee in the sleeper cars on the CZ (if you are in one ). And I can't wait to see any pictures you might post.  Have a great trip.


----------



## Jenizie

When I rode the Zephyr last week, there was coffee in the sleeper cars. 

The flex meals had the tin cover indicating oven heating, as described above. No lasagna as on the Coast Starlight but at lunch they offered options from the cafe car (burgers, hot dogs, pizza) plus just a couple of the flex meals. My car attendant explained it as not wanting to end up with too many leftover flex meals when they switch back to traditional dining next week.


----------



## OBS

Jenizie said:


> When I rode the Zephyr last week, there was coffee in the sleeper cars.
> 
> The flex meals had the tin cover indicating oven heating, as described above. No lasagna as on the Coast Starlight but at lunch they offered options from the cafe car (burgers, hot dogs, pizza) plus just a couple of the flex meals. My car attendant explained it as not wanting to end up with too many leftover flex meals when they switch back to traditional dining next week.


They may also have some of the chefs riding (working) that were called back from layoff. They can take the time to "properly" heat and replate the meals for a little better quality.


----------



## niemi24s

lordsigma said:


> They definitely appear to be using the oven on the superliner trains for flex dining as they usually are coming with a tin cover. My meals on the zephyr all had the tin over the top and seemed more like oven heated than nuked.


Hope you saved those tin covers. Tin is is currently worth about 12X Aluminum.


----------



## lordsigma

niemi24s said:


> Hope you saved those tin covers. Tin is is currently worth about 12X Aluminum.


They’re probably aluminum foil really.


----------



## zephyr17

Well, I think some people are going to be disappointed next week. The start of traditional dining is June 23rd, but it will be on trains departing from the crew base that day. That crew and trainset will have to turn before traditional dining is resumed on the trip going the opposite direction.

I just checked it through the Schedules tab, which will give services, and you can see the start of traditional dining by train there. So, according to Amtrak.com, traditional dining will return as follows:
1 June 26th
2 June 23rd

3 June 26th
4 June 23rd

5 June 23rd
6 June 26th

7 June 26th
8 June 23rd

11 June 25th _corrected per Cal's post_
14 June 23rd _corrected per Cal's post_


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> 11 June 23rd
> 14 June 25th


I think you got this mixed up... Starlight crews are based out of LA


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I think you got this mixed up... Starlight crews are based out of LA


That is true and, what's worse, I knew it. I will correct it.


----------



## tim49424

I’m glad I don’t have to worry about traditional dining on my next trip. I’m headed out to Seattle on August 20. What I’ll be curious about is whether community seating will be back or if they’ll be doing the social distancing setup. I’m looking forward to the linen tablecloths, real silverware and china returning and the updated menus.


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> I’m glad I don’t have to worry about traditional dining on my next trip. I’m headed out to Seattle on August 20. What I’ll be curious about is whether community seating will be back or if they’ll be doing the social distancing setup. I’m looking forward to the linen tablecloths, real silverware and china returning and the updated menus.


According to the website communal seating is returning this week


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> According to the website communal seating is returning this week



However, the mask mandates are still effective until September (unless I missed something). I don’t trust the website on that one.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

What part of the mask mandate precludes communal dining?


----------



## Dustyroad

Jenizie said:


> When I rode the Zephyr last week, there was coffee in the sleeper cars.
> 
> The flex meals had the tin cover indicating oven heating, as described above. No lasagna as on the Coast Starlight but at lunch they offered options from the cafe car (burgers, hot dogs, pizza) plus just a couple of the flex meals. My car attendant explained it as not wanting to end up with too many leftover flex meals when they switch back to traditional dining next week.


Thank you for the great info. I am starting to feel better about my upcoming trip already besides just being on the train having a wonderful vacation.


----------



## Steve4031

Dustyroad said:


> Please let us know if they have coffee in the sleeper cars on the CZ (if you are in one ). And I can't wait to see any pictures you might post.  Have a great trip.



I will be doing a multi-day trip report in the trip report section. It will start 6/25. I’m flying to LA. But I think most of you will enjoy the reading all the details.


----------



## drdumont

cocojacoby said:


> The V2s do have a capacity issue. They removed six seats (a table and a half) for accessibility although a wheelchair passenger may never appear. Some kind of clever convertible seating there would be great if possible.
> 
> Also we all know that the "setup" table and the table that is used for the crew's personal stuff also needs to be addressed. The loss of these two tables and 8 seats is crazy.
> 
> A 48 seat diner becomes a 34 seat diner! That ain't good.


And don't forget at least two tables for the Operating Crew - Conductor, Trainmen, so they can sort paperwork and discuss how bad is working for AMTRAK. 

I had a similar design issue involving ADA compliance. We have never had a wheelchair in our facility. I designed a compliant ramp and access system which could be set up in less than 5 minutes. Soundly rejected by the local inspector. So we have a lot of unusable space for a problem which may never arise.


----------



## ScottR

flitcraft said:


> Well, good news for apple juice fans. It was available on both the EB and CL earlier this week. Flex dining still, but in the good news, bad news department, by the second night at dinner, four of the flex options were sold out. We were told that they aren't able to get enough to fully stock and Amtrak doesn't want to reship more to the West so they overstock the cafe hot dogs, cheeseburgers and mac and cheese. And that's what everyone ate on the final lunch.
> 
> Also in the good news department, they stocked tonic water for G and Ts, though it wasn't listed on the menu. I wondered how many passengers ordered gin neat.


I am on the Southwest Chief enroute Chicago. We are about 5 hours late…but who cares! We have tonic water but…no Gin. Fortunately we do have Vodka. We have all the flex meals available except the Shrimp and Lobster. Frankly I’d welcome a hot dog right now after 2 days of flex, but alas no vouchers from this crew.


----------



## Railspike

As the day is fast approaching for Traditional dining to return to the western LD trains, I'd be willing to bet nobody is happier than the onboard crews. Can you imagine having to eat flex meals, even periodically, for a year? Not to mention the hundreds of complaints they have had endure over the last year. Good riddance to Flex dining!!


----------



## Cal

Railspike said:


> As the day is fast approaching for Traditional dining to return to the western LD trains, I'd be willing to bet nobody is happier than the onboard crews. Can you imagine having to eat flex meals, even periodically, for a year?


I never saw any crews eat a flex meal, I usually see them eating a boxed salad or something similar.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Railspike said:


> As the day is fast approaching for Traditional dining to return to the western LD trains, I'd be willing to bet nobody is happier than the onboard crews. Can you imagine having to eat flex meals, even periodically, for a year? Not to mention the hundreds of complaints they have had endure over the last year. Good riddance to Flex dining!!


Most of the Crews didn't eat those "Meals" since they were supposed to pay for them, so they brought their own food aboard during their trips.

Can't say I blame them!


----------



## ScottR

ScottR said:


> I am on the Southwest Chief enroute Chicago. We are about 5 hours late…but who cares! We have tonic water but…no Gin. Fortunately we do have Vodka. We have all the flex meals available except the Shrimp and Lobster. Frankly I’d welcome a hot dog right now after 2 days of flex, but alas no vouchers from this crew.


Well I take it back! Didn’t make a lunch reservation because well…we were supposed to be in Chicago 40 minutes ago but they Did accommodate me with a hot dog. Paired with an Amtrak salad and a little Mayo, mustard and ketchup I have a quasi Chicago Dog as we cross the Mississippi here in Fort Madison. Even opened the door so I could touch Iowa…State #47 for me. Still need the three in the upper northeast! Loving the trip!


----------



## Cal

ScottR said:


> Even opened the door so I could touch Iowa…State #47 for me. Still need the three in the upper northeast! Loving the trip!


Nice! I've only been to 23 states so far. Most of the states I need to go are in the east, the only western states I haven't been to are Wyoming, South Dakota, Utah, Nebraska, and Hawaii!


----------



## tim49424

ScottR said:


> State #47 for me. Still need the three in the upper northeast! Loving the trip!



Amtrak only serves 46 and I've been to or through them all. Never been to Hawaii, Alaska, South Dakota or Wyoming, the ones they don't. I hope to someday do those by other modes of transportation, just to say I've done it, but am in no hurry. I'll probably drive to SD and WY, and take cruises to HI and AK.


----------



## Dustyroad

flitcraft said:


> Well, good news for apple juice fans. It was available on both the EB and CL earlier this week. Flex dining still, but in the good news, bad news department, by the second night at dinner, four of the flex options were sold out. We were told that they aren't able to get enough to fully stock and Amtrak doesn't want to reship more to the West so they overstock the cafe hot dogs, cheeseburgers and mac and cheese. And that's what everyone ate on the final lunch.
> 
> Also in the good news department, they stocked tonic water for G and Ts, though it wasn't listed on the menu. I wondered how many passengers ordered gin neat.


I'm glad about the Apple juice. I can't drink the orange juice. Mack& cheese and a hot dog sounds good to me.


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> Amtrak only serves 46 and I've been to or through them all. Never been to Hawaii, Alaska, South Dakota or Wyoming, the ones they don't. I hope to someday do those by other modes of transportation, just to say I've done it, but am in no hurry. I'll probably drive to SD and WY, and take cruises to HI and AK.


Only state I'm missing is Alaska. Been through all 46 Amtrak serves and did driving tours to South Dakota and Wyoming and went to Hawaii 40 years ago.


----------



## zephyr17

I am missing only Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont.


----------



## tim49424

Sidney said:


> Only state I'm missing is Alaska. Been through all 46 Amtrak serves and did driving tours to South Dakota and Wyoming and went to Hawaii 40 years ago.



I almost went to South Dakota with my mom back in 2012, but it turned out that the state was in the middle of a horrible heatwave. She never would've been able to survive that, so she decided the upper peninsula of Michigan was going to be our destination. Shortly after that she caught the train riding bug from me and we split our vacations between the U.P. and Amtrak. She rode four times until 2017 and passed in 2018. I accomplished a good chunk of my states thanks to her and had a handful of ones to visit after she was gone. I made it to Florida a year and a half ago, my final state yet to be visited by Amtrak.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> Nice! I've only been to 23 states so far. Most of the states I need to go are in the east, the only western states I haven't been to are Wyoming, South Dakota, Utah, Nebraska, and Hawaii!


You'll knock out Nebraska and Utah on the Zephyr( and possibly even Wyoming if the Zephyr is detoured as happens occasionaly).


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> On the CS today - some unique aspects in the flexible dining today. They have the flex meals plus a meat or veggie lasagna option which is completely different than the normal flexible meals - looked more like it had been prepared at a comissary and reheated - not the usual flex container. They also had the oven pride cafe car burgers and Hebrew National hot dogs available in the diner as well. The lasagna was pretty good - I should have taken a photo before eating but didn’t think too so there’s the finished container.


That looks like the standard tray that's used by a lot of frozen entrées sold in supermarkets these days. Maybe they just loaded up a bunch of those.


----------



## JayPea

tim49424 said:


> Amtrak only serves 46 and I've been to or through them all. Never been to Hawaii, Alaska, South Dakota or Wyoming, the ones they don't. I hope to someday do those by other modes of transportation, just to say I've done it, but am in no hurry. I'll probably drive to SD and WY, and take cruises to HI and AK.


I managed to make the last of all fifty in August, 2018. I began 2018 with only Hawaii, Oklahoma, and Michigan left. So I flew to Hawaii in March to get away from the snow and subzero temperatures here. And in August I flew to Oklahoma City, and took the Heartland Flyer to Fort Worth ( but not before taking in a doubleheader in Oklahoma City between the OKC Dodgers and Iowa Cubs the day prior), then took the Eagle to Chicago, transferred to the Wolverine, and went on to Dearborn, where I spent a day at Greenfield Village (and could have spent another day or two) before heading back to Chicago on the Wolverine and then taking the EB to Spokane. Of the four states not currently served by Amtrak, I have ridden the rails in two of them, as the focal point of my one trip to Alaska was riding the Alaska Railroad between Anchorage and Fairbanks, and while on a road trip to Mt. Rushmore in 2015 I took the Black Hills Central tourist train between Hill City and Keystone,SD. I'd like to be able to say I've ridden the rails in all 50 states. I'm not sure how to do that, especially in Wyoming. I don't have the luxury of getting time off at short notice when the CZ detours through Wyoming.


----------



## jis

Alaska was my 49th and I made it in 2015 I think, or thereabouts anyway, over a Thanksgiving weekend extended by a few days. That is when I rode the Winter Aurora through a mighty blizzard into Fairbanks at -34F.

South Dakota was my 50th, and Rapid City was it. I did ride the Back Hill Central. I also drove across the border into Wyoming to visit the Devil's Tower, which I had always wanted to visit it ever since I saw "Close Encounters....".

Fortunately I had ridden the SFZ through Wyoming several times many moons ago (well actually the Pioneer as a part of the SFZ). I think without particularly trying, but just by chance I might have ridden the rails in all 50 too.

In Hawaii I rode the Lahaina, Kaanapali and Pacific Sugar Train in Maui, many moons ago too, sometime in the early '90s, so that is covered. I was at a Standards Board Meeting at a resort in Kaanapali.


----------



## ScottR

zephyr17 said:


> I am missing only Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont.


Yes…those are the same three for me!


----------



## ScottR

ScottR said:


> Yes…those are the same three for me!


What’s a way to see them on the train..Downeaster? Via Rail?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Vermont is my only miss, I hope to visit there once the Vermonter,Ethan Allen and Adirondack are running again from NYP.


----------



## jis

ScottR said:


> What’s a way to see them on the train..Downeaster? Via Rail?


Maine and New Hampshire on the Downeaster and Vermont, naturally, on the Vermonter, or Ethan Allen. No VIA Rail anywhere in those states.


----------



## Bob Dylan

ScottR said:


> What’s a way to see them on the train..Downeaster? Via Rail?


You can do Maine and New Hamphsire on the Downeaster out of Boston.

For Vermont you can ride the Vermonter or Ethan Allen or do a Circle trip by riding the Adirondack North( once it's Operating again!), crossing Lake Champlain on the Ferry from Port Kent NY to Burlington Vermont, ( May-Oct only)spending the night,and then taking the Train back to NYP.


----------



## tim49424

ScottR said:


> What’s a way to see them on the train..Downeaster? Via Rail?



I did Maine and New Hampshire on the Downeaster in 2016. Vermont was covered on the Ethan Allen in 2017.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

JayPea said:


> I'm not sure how to do that, especially in Wyoming. I don't have the luxury of getting time off at short notice when the CZ detours through Wyoming.



You have made great travel choices! (I love both Greenfield Village and the Black Hills Central Railroad in South Dakota!). 

Union Pacific used to do excursions each Summer from Denver to Cheyenne for the Frontier Days special. - that’s how I got Wyoming in. Sadly they are not currently operating but hopefully it will happen again one day. The train always sold out at like $400 a ticket so there’s certainly a market!


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: please keep the discussion on the topic of Amtrak Dining. Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## CTANut

JayPea said:


> I managed to make the last of all fifty in August, 2018. I began 2018 with only Hawaii, Oklahoma, and Michigan left. So I flew to Hawaii in March to get away from the snow and subzero temperatures here. And in August I flew to Oklahoma City, and took the Heartland Flyer to Fort Worth ( but not before taking in a doubleheader in Oklahoma City between the OKC Dodgers and Iowa Cubs the day prior), then took the Eagle to Chicago, transferred to the Wolverine, and went on to Dearborn, where I spent a day at Greenfield Village (and could have spent another day or two) before heading back to Chicago on the Wolverine and then taking the EB to Spokane. Of the four states not currently served by Amtrak, I have ridden the rails in two of them, as the focal point of my one trip to Alaska was riding the Alaska Railroad between Anchorage and Fairbanks, and while on a road trip to Mt. Rushmore in 2015 I took the Black Hills Central tourist train between Hill City and Keystone,SD. I'd like to be able to say I've ridden the rails in all 50 states. I'm not sure how to do that, especially in Wyoming. I don't have the luxury of getting time off at short notice when the CZ detours through Wyoming.


You can ride on a wyoming train here.
*





Horseback Riding | Group Activities | Cheyenne, WY | Terry Bison Ranch Resort


You and your family can choose your favorite group activities and have a full day of fun here. You may even get the chance to do something you've never tried before.




terrybisonranch.com




*


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Traditional dining will definitely be back by July


That's what they said in May. The "Center of Excellence" told me that - ON THE DAY THEY DELAYED IT!

But we can hope can't we? And if we can't hope, we can dream. And if we can't dream, we can fantasize.


----------



## me_little_me

AmHope said:


> The problem with an ADA-only car is that it adds an entire car to the consist for what could be an empty car.


Not necessarily. With foldable seats and dual-use features, they can make them usable for anyone if not needed for ADA. They could also allow more semi-ADA people i.e. those without wheelchairs or walkers but who could use help (bad knees, age, etc) to use them when those fully qualifying don't fill the car.


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> That's what they said in May. The "Center of Excellence" told me that - ON THE DAY THEY DELAYED IT!
> 
> But we can hope can't we? And if we can't hope, we can dream. And if we can't dream, we can fantasize.


It is due back starting tomorrow. Since they threw a fairly big media event it was part of, I am pretty confident.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> That's what they said in May. The "Center of Excellence" told me that - ON THE DAY THEY DELAYED IT!
> 
> But we can hope can't we? And if we can't hope, we can dream. And if we can't dream, we can fantasize.


They didn’t “delay” it. May 21 was an estimated date set months and months ago. Anyone who booked a trip in late May or early June banking on that did so at their own peril. They were starting to say on various occasions that sometime in June was the likely timetable and they probably wouldn’t be able to make the return to daily service. If dining is absolutely essential to your travel waiting until they announced the plan was the safe move.


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> It is due back starting tomorrow. Since they threw a fairly big media event it was part of, I am pretty confident.


This is why I'm confident.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Who will be the first to post a pic of their steak (anything on the traditional menu) on this thread and put this to rest? 

I'm with Cal, My glass if half full and I expect to see traditional dining for my upcoming up trip. Please! I can't take another Flex! :-( 
Seeing is reassurance


----------



## tim49424

I’m looking forward to seeing the reports starting tomorrow!


----------



## Way2Kewl

tim49424 said:


> I’m looking forward to seeing the reports starting tomorrow!



Super Ditto...
Figured any dedicated Amtrak Forum member who's live will post just after breakfast on any of the trains out of the gate... it will be anticipation from that time on until the first confirmation...


----------



## Cal

If sleeper prices were lower, I'd book for a round trip from Fullerton to Gallup tomorrow just to try it.


----------



## Way2Kewl

zephyr17 said:


> Well, I think some people are going to be disappointed next week. The start of traditional dining is June 23rd, but it will be on trains departing from the crew base that day. That crew and trainset will have to turn before traditional dining is resumed on the trip going the opposite direction.
> 
> I just checked it through the Schedules tab, which will give services, and you can see the start of traditional dining by train there. So, according to Amtrak.com, traditional dining will return as follows:
> 1 June 26th
> 2 June 23rd
> 
> 3 June 26th
> 4 June 23rd
> 
> 5 June 23rd
> 6 June 26th
> 
> 7 June 26th
> 8 June 23rd
> 
> 11 June 25th _corrected per Cal's post_
> 14 June 23rd _corrected per Cal's post_



While any of our fellow fans can go straight to the diner and ask the Lead as soon as they get checked in … Looks like it’s going to come down to Coast Starlight as the possible first sighting… 

Here’s the possible first meals:
#2 - leaves at 10P (no meals tomorrow)
#4 - leaves LAX 6P (Starts with Dinner)
#8 - leaves SEA at 4P (Dinner)
#5 - leaves CHI 2P (Starts with Dinner (I think)
#14 - departure at 10A (Starts with Lunch)

Insert pictures below!


----------



## niemi24s

Way2Kewl said:


> Who will be the first to post a pic of their steak . . .


Who will be the first to grumble about the lack of a proper doily under the flower vase?


----------



## Way2Kewl

thought doilies were gone and upside down Amtrak Coffee Cup with Pens stuck in a circle around the flower were in.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Very much looking forward to the pictures and reviews of the new food.

It's starting to look like I might be on the California Zephyr sometime in late July. Only Chicago to Denver. 

Would be a real shame if I sleep through Denver and have to turn back at Winter Park...


----------



## Cal

I'm taking #3 in late July, will definitely post pictures. Can't wait...


----------



## Cal

Way2Kewl said:


> Here’s the possible first meals:
> #2 - leaves at 10P (no meals tomorrow)
> #4 - leaves LAX 6P (Starts with Dinner)
> #8 - leaves SEA at 4P (Dinner)
> #5 - leaves CHI 2P (Starts with Dinner (I think)
> #14 - departure at 10A (Starts with Lunch)


Train #2 doesn't serve dinner the first night, in fact I believe beds are also already made up upon boarding - could be wrong.


----------



## Way2Kewl

My experience as well. Union Station Dinner and Beds ready.


----------



## lordsigma

I’ll be on the Chief June 26


----------



## Sidney

Cal said:


> Train #2 doesn't serve dinner the first night, in fact I believe beds are also already made up upon boarding - could be wrong.


Yes,beds are made up when you board and due to the 10PM departure no meal is served.


----------



## Rasputin

This is June 23, 2021 which is supposed to be the day that traditional dining returns to most western long distance trains.

Is it really back? And if so, what are the reviews?

MODERATOR NOTE: The new thread about traditional dining returning has been merged with the existing thread entitled Amtrak Dining.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Rasputin said:


> This is June 23, 2021 which is supposed to be the day that traditional dining returns to most western long distance trains.
> 
> Is it really back? And if so, what are the reviews?


Maybe wait a day before asking. I don’t think any of the trains have left their station yet.


----------



## Sidney

I would imagine lunch on the Coast Starlight should be the initial meal today.


----------



## Brian Battuello

The suspense builds...


----------



## Brian Battuello

I have it on good authority that there was a sekrit meeting at Amtrak headquarters about three years ago.

"The passengers are complaining too much about the food. It's making the boss look bad."
"Maybe we should change things around a bit so they'll appreciate us more."
"Good idea. Let's give them cardboard boxes with cold food for a few years."
"No way they'll go for for that."
"We'll try it on the Lake Shore Limited and see what happens."

and the rest is history!


----------



## Rasputin

I imagine with the time difference that lunch on the Sunset which departed New Orleans this morning will be the first traditional dining meal to be served. It will no doubt be greeted with acclamation as the train passes through Louisiana. I imagine fire engines, high school marching bands, etc.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I never cared much about lunch, but would be great to see some breakfast pics. French toast....




Computer simulation. Actual toast may vary.


----------



## Way2Kewl

CS, first to leave the gate, boards LAX in less than 3 hours. Lunch shortly thereafter… suspense is killing me…
Show me the “French Toast”…


----------



## joelkfla

SO now I'm in suspense as to which thread will get the first pictures: this upstart thread, or the Amtrak Dining one which was already discussing it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> SO now I'm in suspense as to which thread will get the first pictures: this upstart thread, or the Amtrak Dining one which was already discussing it.


Or someone who starts their own thread because they didn't bother checking if there were any appropriate threads to post in.....


----------



## Rasputin

I thought a new post-pandemic "return of traditional dining" thread was appropriate but if not, administrators can merge the threads or delete this one. In the meantime, since this is a food topic, I will wait with baited breath, but certainly not bated breath.


----------



## lordsigma

Traditional dining today will be on trains departing out of the OBS crew base. So for CZ it will only be the west bound train and for Chief only the eastbound. I believe for the sunset it will only be the eastbound. The opposite directions won’t be until that first crew turns (which for some trains won’t be until Saturday.)


----------



## Brian Battuello

I think it is worth a short-term celebration/report space. But after we all get over it, back to the real dining topic...


----------



## Brian Battuello

I posted this in the other "dining" topic, but worth repeating...




Computer simulation. Actual toast may vary.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Traditional dining today will be on trains departing out of the OBS crew base. So for CZ it will only be the west bound train and for Chief only the eastbound. I believe for the sunset it will only be the eastbound. The opposite directions won’t be until that first crew turns (which for some trains won’t be until Saturday.)


@zephyr17 documented the entire lot in the Amtrak Dining thread a few days back


> I just checked it through the Schedules tab, which will give services, and you can see the start of traditional dining by train there. So, according to Amtrak.com, traditional dining will return as follows:
> 1 June 26th
> 2 June 23rd
> 
> 3 June 26th
> 4 June 23rd
> 
> 5 June 23rd
> 6 June 26th
> 
> 7 June 26th
> 8 June 23rd
> 
> 11 June 25th _corrected per Cal's post_
> 14 June 23rd _corrected per Cal's post_


----------



## CTANut

2:30 pm EST....


----------



## CTANut

HTML:


<script src="https://cdn.logwork.com/widget/countdown.js"></script>
<a href="https://logwork.com/countdown-pa2a" class="countdown-timer" data-timezone="America/New_York" data-date="2021-06-23 14:30">My Countdown</a>


----------



## Dustyroad

lordsigma said:


> I’ll be on the Chief June 26


Please post any thing about the dining experience. I will be anxious to know how many they are setting at each table. If they are stuffing the dining car to the max, I will eat in my roomette.. Also, if they have coffee in the sleeper cars. I will be on the Chief in Sept. Thanks .


----------



## zephyr17

Rasputin said:


> I imagine with the time difference that lunch on the Sunset which departed New Orleans this morning will be the first traditional dining meal to be served. It will no doubt be greeted with acclamation as the train passes through Louisiana. I imagine fire engines, high school marching bands, etc.


The Sunset is crew based out of LA, so the first westbound Sunset to have traditional dining will be on Saturday the 26th when the train that leaves Los Angeles tonight with traditional dining starts back.

This is confirmed by what is listed as "details" about the departures in the Schedules tab on Amtrak.com.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> They didn’t “delay” it. May 21 was an estimated date set months and months ago. Anyone who booked a trip in late May or early June banking on that did so at their own peril. They were starting to say on various occasions that sometime in June was the likely timetable and they probably wouldn’t be able to make the return to daily service. If dining is absolutely essential to your travel waiting until they announced the plan was the safe move.


I disagree. On May 21, I received that email. So to them, it wasn't an estimate. It did not say "estimate" on my ticket. It did not say estimate on the web site, even long after I bought my ticket. 

You can believe that the election was stolen or that the date was an estimate. But I don't. They knew they couldn't deliver what they promised. They failed to tell their agents. They failed to tell their customers. They LIED!


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> They LIED!


It was because of the Center of Excellence.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Suspense is killing me.

I’m still a bit frustrated at Battuello...
as I woke up this morning and saw his picture of the French Toast and thought *WooHoo!!!* Confirmation good food is back!, until I realized the syrup was just a bit to perfect… then I caught his captions… but it was all to late… adrenaline had already kicked in. 

Back to hoping for a picture of anything on someone’s plate from the Traditional menu. Just so the fellow upcoming trip fans can have something to look forward to (again) And bury the Flex for good (for now)


----------



## Cal

Way2Kewl said:


> Suspense is killing me.
> 
> I’m still a bit frustrated at Battuello...
> as I woke up this morning and saw his picture of the French Toast and thought *WooHoo!!!* Confirmation good food is back!, until I realized the syrup was just a bit to perfect… then I caught his captions… but it was all to late… adrenaline had already kicked in.
> 
> Back to hoping for a picture of anything on someone’s plate from the Traditional menu. Just so the fellow upcoming trip fans can have something to look forward to (again) And bury the Flex for good (for now)


I've been checking YouTube and searching "Amtrak", and setting the filter to past hour to see if anybody has uploaded anything.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Feeling only slightly guilty about my French toast picture above, I did some digging around on the web and I found an actual public relations picture of the real Amtrak French toast:



It was on a surprisingly comprehensive guide to the new food including complete menus for all the affected trains. I haven't seen this before so I wonder if they dropped it this morning. Here's a link to the full guide:









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

Brian Battuello said:


> Feeling only slightly guilty about my French toast picture above, I did some digging around on the web and I found an actual public relations picture of the real Amtrak French toast:
> 
> View attachment 23035
> 
> It was on a surprisingly comprehensive guide to the new food including complete menus for all the affected trains. I haven't seen this before so I wonder if they dropped it this morning. Here's a link to the full guide:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Traditional Dining
> 
> 
> Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtrak.com


Sadly the Texas Eagle between Chicago and San Antonio isn't included, and I notice the Grits are no longer offered as an alternate to the Potatoes except for the Continential Breakfast, and Polenta has replaced Mashed Potatoes( but there's still Baked Spuds!)

The rest looks pretty decent, looking forward to trying the choices once I'm riding Long Distance again!


----------



## Rasputin

Hopefully the absence of grits in all breakfast entrees except the continental breakfast is a typo.


----------



## deBASHmode

neroden said:


> OK, so long story here. I believe the last china used by Amtrak before switching to plastic was the Corelle, which was glass. They sold that off; the staff really didn't like it, because although it doesn't break the first five times you drop it, when it does break, it explodes and is very hard to clean up.


Sometimes you don't get lucky and that explosion happens first drop. Despite repeated sweeping and vacuuming, I was still finding tiny shards months later, often with my bare feet. Corelle is banned from this household.


----------



## deBASHmode

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak shows off upgrades to long-distance trains
> 
> 
> The spiffed-up coaches and sleeper cars, and improved dining service, will be a big change for a fleet that was decades old — and showing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chicago.suntimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another article


Anyone know if you can find out which trains have new cars on them? It'd be so cool to get one on my trip early July. (6 Zephyr from EMY-CHI.)


----------



## Cal

deBASHmode said:


> Anyone know if you can find out which trains have new cars on them? It'd be so cool to get one on my trip early July. (6 Zephyr from EMY-CHI.)


I believe they are random


----------



## Cal

From the Barstow railcam, do I see flowers?


----------



## IndyLions

Cal said:


> View attachment 23045
> View attachment 23046
> 
> From the Barstow railcam, do I see flowers?



Not sure (my eyes aren’t _that_ good) - but I can tell if they are using tablecloths the tables aren’t set yet…


----------



## lordsigma

Will someone get a photo or do a review before my trip on Saturday? Will be interesting to see!


----------



## Way2Kewl

Where's the beef!


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> Not sure (my eyes aren’t _that_ good) - but I can tell if they are using tablecloths the tables aren’t set yet…


This was at 10, long after dinner service ended


----------



## Brian Battuello

What's the point of hanging out with a bunch of foamers if we don't have at least one member on a train at any given time?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brian Battuello said:


> What's the point of hanging out with a bunch of foamers if we don't have at least one member on a train at any given time?



Seriously! For the amount of posts made about dining, not one person took the first trip?


----------



## Cal

I've also been checking Instagram and YouTube, haven't found anything yet.


----------



## Dustyroad

They might be to busy savoring every morsel of Real food to think about taking a picture.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The press release forgot to mention you have to sign an NDA to enter the dining car.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Or else the whole thing is a giant practical joke...


----------



## Dustyroad

Brian Battuello said:


> Or else the whole thing is a giant practical joke...


Please NO!!


----------



## Dakota 400

Way2Kewl said:


> Where's the beef!



An "oldie" but a "goodie"!


----------



## lordsigma

Will I be the first on Saturday?? We shall see!


----------



## joelkfla

Could be they're on board, but in cell dead zones.

I wouldn't expect YouTubes for a couple of weeks. Video editing is time consuming.


----------



## me_little_me

chrsjrcj said:


> Seriously! For the amount of posts made about dining, not one person took the first trip?


Think about it. What if the traditional dining is not there? "Agghhh! Not another set of flex meals! Help!"


----------



## Way2Kewl

I’m surprised nothing has come in…

Are there any forum members that live close to a Western LD train station that can run down there and meet up with the train, tap on the Diner car, and ask them directly? 
I’m of no use, I’m unlucky enough to be in DAL and Mini-Eagle folks will remain on FlexStuff for now. If we could only get a Burrito lady on the mini-portion of the Eagle.

At this point the first member dining post will escalate them to hero … allowing the rest of us who are impatient and must now know before they board their upcoming trip to sleep in peace. And not plan for backup.


----------



## niemi24s

♫ Let's get our panties in a wad, doo-dah, doo dah . . .♪


----------



## lordsigma

on the website Amtrak has removed the suspended until June 23rd alert and removed any mention of the west coast flexible dining menu. It now just shows the eastern trains plus Texas eagle on flexible dining


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> on the website Amtrak has removed the suspended until June 23rd alert and removed any mention of the west coast flexible dining menu. It now just shows the eastern trains plus Texas eagle on flexible dining


Well, at least that was a welcome timely change instead of their usual jumble of changes which may or may not reflect reality. We shall thank our Stars for these smaller mercies


----------



## Emrys

I’m eating in room tonight on the Empire Builder, but I’ll attach pics of the Pan Roasted Chicken and the new menu (which does have the French Toast listed). Last night I had the Flat Iron Steak and the Flourless Chocolate Torte—both were excellent. Hope this helps; I’ll delete this post if the pics are too big and cause issues viewing the thread.



.


----------



## pennyk

Emrys said:


> I’m eating in room tonight on the Empire Builder, but I’ll attach pics of the Pan Roasted Chicken and the new menu (which does have the French Toast listed). Last night I had the Flat Iron Steak and the Flourless Chocolate Torte—both were excellent. Hope this helps; I’ll delete this post if the pics are too big and cause issues viewing the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> .View attachment 23074
> View attachment 23075
> View attachment 23076
> View attachment 23077


thanks for posting. Many members were waiting for your post.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Yes!!! A real salad!!! A dinner entree that looks like a dinner entree! 

We’ve made it to the promised land everyone!


----------



## Cal

Can you take a picture of how the dining car is setup?


----------



## Way2Kewl

Thank you for the assuring confirmation. Envious. 
Cheers! -enjoy the rest of your trip.


----------



## MisterUptempo

"Are you listening to this over here? It's like Martha and Gertrude at the automat..." 

_The Odd Couple_, 1968


----------



## Dustyroad

Cal said:


> Can you take a picture of how the dining car is setup?


I second that. And please, did you have the coffee set-up in your car?


----------



## joelkfla

Emrys said:


> I’m eating in room tonight on the Empire Builder, but I’ll attach pics of the Pan Roasted Chicken and the new menu (which does have the French Toast listed). Last night I had the Flat Iron Steak and the Flourless Chocolate Torte—both were excellent. Hope this helps; I’ll delete this post if the pics are too big and cause issues viewing the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> .View attachment 23074
> View attachment 23075
> View attachment 23076
> View attachment 23077


Tomato! Tomato! I see a tomato!


----------



## Rasputin

And can we get clarification about whether grits are offered with all breakfast entrees or only with the continental breakfast?


----------



## Brian Battuello

Thank you very much for the pictures and the menu!

Looks perfectly acceptable. I might have had one or two more choices for dinner but it is still a huge improvement.

Personally I hope that they find a way to get coach passengers back into the diner soon, seems a little snobbish to exclude them but I suppose they want to ramp up slowly.

On the other hand without the coach passengers we don't have to look at the astronomical prices set for the dinner entrées. Two years ago they had some sort of surf and turf that went for almost $40!


----------



## tonys96

So, it has come to this.
We are ecstatic that regular dining has returned to 5 routes out of the entire system. Just ecstatic!
While the rest of the system, including many overnight routes, including two night routes are still being fed gruel at best. One, so far, has even been stripped of the SSL.
But we are ecstatic!
So, that is what it has come to.


----------



## Rasputin

tonys96 said:


> So, it has come to this.
> We are ecstatic that regular dining has returned to 5 routes out of the entire system. Just ecstatic!
> While the rest of the system, including many overnight routes, including two night routes are still being fed gruel at best. One, so far, has even been stripped of the SSL.
> But we are ecstatic!
> So, that is what it has come to.


This is Amtrak and sometimes you have to celebrate small victories (or maybe the only victories to celebrate are small ones.) Yes it is discouraging that you have to run the gauntlet of poor food eastern trains in order to reach Chicago and connect to the better food western trains. And the Texas Eagle situation continues to be discouraging.


----------



## lordsigma

I also think you have to celebrate and recognize small victories. They do seem to be open to making changes to the flexible dining program on the rest of the trains in the fall timeline. But for now it’s an improvement and these are the trains where the dining car service is the most important and where improvement was most urgently needed.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Brian Battuello said:


> Personally I hope that they find a way to get coach passengers back into the diner soon, seems a little snobbish to exclude them but I suppose they want to ramp up slowly.



Based on recent quotes from leadership it sounds like they are not wanting to do that but rather offer coach passengers some sort of take-out or at your seat service.


----------



## Eric in East County

It appears that *Southwest Chief Train #4* which left LA on 6/23, presumably with a dining car serving traditional meals, will be 8 hours late arriving in Chicago today (6/25). Amstew for all tonight!


----------



## Rasputin

Eric in East County said:


> It appears that *Southwest Chief Train #4* which left LA on 6/23, presumably with a dining car serving traditional meals, will be 8 hours late arriving in Chicago today (6/25). Amstew for all tonight!


People will try to call to make a reservation and board the train just to have the stew.


----------



## lordsigma

someone posted this photo on the friends of the California Zephyr Facebook group of the setup on #5.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> View attachment 23089
> 
> someone posted this photo on the friends of the California Zephyr Facebook group of the setup on #5.


Great to see, I'll have the Steak, Medium Rare with Baked Potato, Salad, Warm Roll and Cheescake! To drink, my Free Serving of Red!


----------



## me_little_me

tonys96 said:


> So, it has come to this.
> We are ecstatic that regular dining has returned to 5 routes out of the entire system. Just ecstatic!
> While the rest of the system, including many overnight routes, including two night routes are still being fed gruel at best. One, so far, has even been stripped of the SSL.
> But we are ecstatic!
> So, that is what it has come to.


As the President of the *Love The Gruel Society*, I take umbrage at your insulting remark about our favorite meal. Remember Oliver Twist, an important character in history who, upon eating his gruel, asked the master


> Please, sir, I want some more.


Has ANYONE done that with the flex meals? NO! So please stop insulting Mr. Twist (now grown and well over 100 - he still eats gruel at the nursing home) and the Society. Have you no decency?


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> View attachment 23089
> 
> someone posted this photo on the friends of the California Zephyr Facebook group of the setup on #5.


YAY! Flowers, cloth napkins, and table cloths!!!


----------



## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Great to see, I'll have the Steak, Medium Rare with Baked Potato, Salad, Warm Roll and Cheescake! To drink, my Free Serving of Red!


Nailed it.


----------



## Asher

me_little_me said:


> As the President of the *Love The Gruel Society*, I take umbrage at your insulting remark about our favorite meal. Remember Oliver Twist, an important character in history who, upon eating his gruel, asked the master
> Has ANYONE done that with the flex meals? NO! So please stop insulting Mr. Twist (now grown and well over 100 - he still eats gruel at the nursing home) and the Society. Have you no decency?


I hear you talking,. But, I’ll pass On the gruel


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Bob Dylan said:


> Great to see, I'll have the Steak, Medium Rare with Baked Potato, Salad, Warm Roll and Cheescake! To drink, my Free Serving of Red!



Hey Jim—Don’t get so excited that you forget the first step—before you order, you have to board the train! (Details, details.)


----------



## willem

Bob Dylan said:


> Steak, Medium Rare with Baked Potato, Salad, *Warm Roll* and Cheescake


A bit off-topic, but pre-flex, the Empire Builder always surprised and disappointed me by not heating the rolls. I hope that's changed.


----------



## Sidney

A wrong has been righted. Next step is restoring traditional dining on the TE and the Eastern trains and letting Coach passengers eat good food. Hopefully by years end flexible dining will be a bad memory. indeed,one of Antrak's biggest blunders.


----------



## Cal

willem said:


> A bit off-topic, but pre-flex, the Empire Builder always surprised and disappointed me by not heating the rolls. I hope that's changed.


Mine were usually warm..


----------



## me_little_me

Sidney said:


> A wrong has been righted. Next step is restoring traditional dining on the TE and the Eastern trains and letting Coach passengers eat good food. Hopefully by years end flexible dining will be a bad memory. indeed,one of Antrak's biggest blunders.


New Coke version 2


----------



## tim49424

Bob Dylan said:


> Great to see, I'll have the Steak, Medium Rare with Baked Potato, Salad, Warm Roll and Cheescake!



IMO, the PERFECT dinner on Amtrak and what I'll be having the evening of August 20 on the Empire Builder!


----------



## Sidney

tim49424 said:


> IMO, the PERFECT dinner on Amtrak and what I'll be having the evening of August 20 on the Empire Builder!


My exact choice. I'll be on the EB from Chi-Sea on September 9. Red wine preceding the meal. Can't wait! Meals will be something to look forward to again!


----------



## PVD

tim49424 said:


> IMO, the PERFECT dinner on Amtrak and what I'll be having the evening of August 20 on the Empire Builder!


Stick a birthday candle on the cheescake for me.....8-20


----------



## tim49424

PVD said:


> Stick a birthday candle on the cheescake for me.....8-20



My last trip, same itinerary (joy ride from CHI-SEA and back, only spending time at King Street), back on February 17-22, 2020, was a birthday trip for me. I have a dear friend who is a conductor and he was working Mondays, so I left the day before. I was in the dining car at lunch the next day at a table with three other pax and opened my big mouth to one of them, as I explained why I was travelling. Next thing you know, I had the entire dining car singing to me, as she informed our server.


----------



## niemi24s

willem said:


> A bit off-topic, but pre-flex, the Empire Builder always surprised and disappointed me by not heating the rolls.


One of my most memorable moments on the EB was being severely chided by the Dining Car Dragon for attempting to warm a roll with my cigarette lighter.


----------



## Cal

tim49424 said:


> My last trip, same itinerary (joy ride from CHI-SEA and back, only spending time at King Street), back on February 17-22, 2020, was a birthday trip for me. I have a dear friend who is a conductor and he was working Mondays, so I left the day before. I was in the dining car at lunch the next day at a table with three other pax and opened my big mouth to one of them, as I explained why I was travelling. Next thing you know, I had the entire dining car singing to me, as she informed our server.


That's amazing, truly showing how great Amtrak travel can be.


----------



## tim49424

Cal said:


> That's amazing, truly showing how great Amtrak travel can be.



It was more embarrassing than amazing, but other than that the trip was great as usual.


----------



## erinch13

We’ll be on the CL Jul 11:WAS to CHI. And then SWC to ABQ. What’s the least worst of the flex dining on the CL?


----------



## Cal

erinch13 said:


> We’ll be on the CL Jul 11:WAS to CHI. And then SWC to ABQ. What’s the least worst of the flex dining on the CL?


If they Shrimp in Lobster sauce or the cod, get that!


----------



## west point

Someone I know said yesterday that1she was changing tableware during the shutdown. For some reason the replacement tableware is "delayed in transit". Supplier will not give her more information. My first thought container carrier Evergiven ? But that does appear unlikely as wrong location. But it might be Amtrak cannot get enough table ware yet ? It might be only 1 - 3 items ? NOT happy using Styrofoam plates'


----------



## Cal

west point said:


> NOT happy using Styrofoam plates'


Aren't they plastic?


----------



## bestcee

Brian Battuello said:


> Personally I hope that they find a way to get coach passengers back into the diner soon, seems a little snobbish to exclude them


This would be nice.
Just travelled on the Zephyr, coach, first (longer than 4 hours) Amtrak trip (6/23-24) Naperville to Provo. I got to listen to constant dining room calls. Breakfast starting at 7am, with 2 additional calls for come and eat, followed by a last call. Then the lunch call started: 11:30, 12:30 & 1:30. Then the announcement that she would be coming to the sleeper cars to get your order and reservation time. Then hey, if you didn't get your reservation I'm in the dining car come to me. Then last call for reservations! Then the calling to dinner: 5:30, 6:30 & 7:30. Then the hey, if you haven't gotten food, come tell us because we don't know about you! 
All this punctuated by extra announcements that this doesn't apply to coach. You can check the cafe for food, but that's it. 
Having to listen to so many food announcements with the constant reminders that it doesn't apply to me was a real turn off and makes me rethink taking the train again. I've never felt more like a second class citizen. Maybe they can program the speakers so that coach cars don't have to hear all the excess meal announcements.


----------



## Sidney

I got that $299 rail pass. Sure would be nice to have a few diner meals on board. Breakfast starts at 6:30. First announcements start at 7. It would be nice to let Coach passengers order breakfast during that half hour window when the diner is still pretty empty.


----------



## Rasputin

niemi24s said:


> One of my most memorable moments on the EB was being severely chided by the Dining Car Dragon for attempting to warm a roll with my cigarette lighter.


You are supposed to set your roll in the sun. It is much safer and is environmentally friendly.


----------



## cocojacoby

tim49424 said:


> IMO, the PERFECT dinner on Amtrak and what I'll be having the evening of August 20 on the Empire Builder!



Good but not perfect. Add the Lobster Crab Cake and a glass of wine. Now you're talking


----------



## tim49424

cocojacoby said:


> Good but not perfect. Add the Lobster Crab Cake and a glass of wine. Now you're talking



Did you happen to see the “IMO”?


----------



## lordsigma

bestcee said:


> This would be nice.
> Just travelled on the Zephyr, coach, first (longer than 4 hours) Amtrak trip (6/23-24) Naperville to Provo. I got to listen to constant dining room calls. Breakfast starting at 7am, with 2 additional calls for come and eat, followed by a last call. Then the lunch call started: 11:30, 12:30 & 1:30. Then the announcement that she would be coming to the sleeper cars to get your order and reservation time. Then hey, if you didn't get your reservation I'm in the dining car come to me. Then last call for reservations! Then the calling to dinner: 5:30, 6:30 & 7:30. Then the hey, if you haven't gotten food, come tell us because we don't know about you!
> All this punctuated by extra announcements that this doesn't apply to coach. You can check the cafe for food, but that's it.
> Having to listen to so many food announcements with the constant reminders that it doesn't apply to me was a real turn off and makes me rethink taking the train again. I've never felt more like a second class citizen. Maybe they can program the speakers so that coach cars don't have to hear all the excess meal announcements.


They say they're going to open up eventually - next trip try for an upgrade to a sleeper. You never know you may get it.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Good but not perfect. Add the Lobster Crab Cake and a glass of wine. Now you're talking


Did not have time or patience to check the menu eh?  just to help, here is a link to the menu:



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



Or was that an obscure piece of humor?


----------



## lordsigma

Today is the first day of traditional dining out of origination terminals in both directions for the zephyr, builder, and southwest chief - first day on trains 3, 6, and 7. It will take a couple more days for all intermediate stations in the “return direction” back to the OBS crew base to have it. The exception is the sunset which will originate its first west bound train with traditional dining tomorrow (Sunday)


----------



## Dustyroad

lordsigma said:


> Today is the first day of traditional dining out of origination terminals in both directions for the zephyr, builder, and southwest chief - first day on trains 3, 6, and 7. It will take a couple more days for all intermediate stations in the “return direction” back to the OBS crew base to have it. The exception is the sunset which will originate its first west bound train with traditional dining tomorrow (Sunday)


Thanks for the info.


----------



## Steve4031

Looks like I might be the first. I will be boarding 14 tomorrow. I will document with pictures from my trip report


----------



## Steve4031

Steve4031 said:


> Looks like I might be the first. I will be boarding 14 tomorrow. I will document with pictures from my trip report



Here is the link. Please note that the pictures of lunch on 1; will appear tomorrow, Sunday June 27. Trip Report. Steve introduces Rosalyn to the Coast Starlight and California Zephyr


----------



## Cal

Weren't some people boarding today?


----------



## BoulderCO

Hopefully the restriction of traditional dining to only sleeper passengers is just temporary until they see how it goes. I personally will not be riding Amtrak until I can be in coach and still have meals of my choice in the dining car.


----------



## Cal

BoulderCO said:


> Hopefully the restriction of traditional dining to only sleeper passengers is just temporary until they see how it goes. I personally will not be riding Amtrak until I can be in coach and still have meals of my choice in the dining car.


I believe they said they will be letting coach at least eat the meals made from the diner soon, not sure about where they will eat them though.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I’ll be on the Chief June 26


We are all waiting for your report.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> We are all waiting for your report.


I’ll have my dinner report tonight!

here is a link have started a trip report thread:





__





Trip report - Southwest Chief #4 / Lake Shore Limited #448 LAX-SPG


I begin my trip at my last lunch of my vacation at California Pizza Kitchen in Hollywood after dropping my bags off at the LAX Metro Lounge.




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Cal

From Instagram, person said the food was good. It sure does look good!


----------



## lordsigma

I see flowers. For more see my trip report.


----------



## lordsigma

For those wondering - the steak is cooked to order.


----------



## Way2Kewl

... and the steak that came with your Red Wine Braised Beef Flex Meal wasn't? 

Food cooked off the Traditional Diner Menu is a substantial portion of the experience on the train. The reassurance is encouraging. I'm thrilled to expect it next week on the full route Zephyr!


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> View attachment 23134
> View attachment 23135
> 
> 
> From Instagram, person said the food was good. It sure does look good!


They couldn't get any flowers, so they went to the side of the roadbed and cut down a bush?


----------



## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> They couldn't get any flowers, so they went to the side of the roadbed and cut down a bush?


They fired all the flowers to save money. They tried hiring them back but they had all died in the interim (probably of Covid). So they are trying to recruit and train new flowers but as you can see, they are new to the job so they are not as sharp as an experienced flower would be.

On the other hand, those might be leftover "flex" flowers.


----------



## jruff001

Steve4031 said:


> Looks like I might be the first. I will be boarding 14 tomorrow. I will document with pictures from my trip report


If you mean 14(27) (which it sounds like you are), you might be departing a bit late. 11(25) is running almost nine hours late out of OXN this morning! Not sure how fast they can turn it plus stocking the diner might be slower than usual with all the new changes the commissary and OBS employees will be learning.


----------



## MilwaukeeRoadLover

Yay!


----------



## Dustyroad

lordsigma said:


> I’ll have my dinner report tonight!
> 
> here is a link have started a trip report thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trip report - Southwest Chief #4 / Lake Shore Limited #448 LAX-SPG
> 
> 
> I begin my trip at my last lunch of my vacation at California Pizza Kitchen in Hollywood after dropping my bags off at the LAX Metro Lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


Thanks for the report. Can I ask what the item was with the caramel sauce? When I saw your dinner menu I got very hungry .


----------



## lordsigma

Dustyroad said:


> Thanks for the report. Can I ask what the item was with the caramel sauce? When I saw your dinner menu I got very hungry .


That was the Philly cheesecake very good.


----------



## Steve4031

jruff001 said:


> If you mean 14(27) (which it sounds like you are), you might be departing a bit late. 11(25) is running almost nine hours late out of OXN this morning! Not sure how fast they can turn it plus stocking the diner might be slower than usual with all the new changes the commissary and OBS employees will be learning.



I have been following that train. Hoping there is a spare set of superliners they can use.


----------



## Dustyroad

lordsigma said:


> That was the Philly cheesecake very good.


Yumm.


----------



## Cal

I’d advise y’all to check out their separate trip report threads. Several photos of traditional dining has been posted in one of them.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

bestcee said:


> This would be nice.
> Just travelled on the Zephyr, coach, first (longer than 4 hours) Amtrak trip (6/23-24) Naperville to Provo. I got to listen to constant dining room calls. Breakfast starting at 7am, with 2 additional calls for come and eat, followed by a last call. Then the lunch call started: 11:30, 12:30 & 1:30. Then the announcement that she would be coming to the sleeper cars to get your order and reservation time. Then hey, if you didn't get your reservation I'm in the dining car come to me. Then last call for reservations! Then the calling to dinner: 5:30, 6:30 & 7:30. Then the hey, if you haven't gotten food, come tell us because we don't know about you!
> All this punctuated by extra announcements that this doesn't apply to coach. You can check the cafe for food, but that's it.
> Having to listen to so many food announcements with the constant reminders that it doesn't apply to me was a real turn off and makes me rethink taking the train again. I've never felt more like a second class citizen. Maybe they can program the speakers so that coach cars don't have to hear all the excess meal announcements.



Not a second class citizen - just a second ('coach') class passenger.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

bestcee said:


> Having to listen to so many food announcements with the constant reminders that it doesn't apply to me was a real turn off and makes me rethink taking the train again. I've never felt more like a second class citizen. Maybe they can program the speakers so that coach cars don't have to hear all the excess meal announcements.


I agree that they should stop broadcasting these unnecessary messages over the public address system and work on getting enough staff hired and trained to handle the dining needs of coach passengers as well. We really only need a notice that the dining car has opened or closed and which time zone they're using. The rest of it can be handled by simply sticking to the schedule, leaving tables free and clear for more customers, and moving people along when they're done eating. I've never understood why every single seating needs its own special announcement. If you're able to miss a meal by accident then set an alarm or have it brought to your room. I started out in coach myself and if Amtrak had turned me off back then it's doubtful I'd be riding in sleepers today.


----------



## Nleprohn

Set to travel in July on the EB. been sending my son your pictures. We are both excited for the dining car.. and ask the rest


----------



## Cal

I'll be sending pictures of dining on #3 in late July as well (and maybe the Starlight in August, if the diner is open to coach or I get upgraded)


----------



## erinch13

This will be our choices on the CL on July 12. What would you pick?


----------



## Cal

erinch13 said:


> This will be our choices on the CL on July 12. What would you pick?
> View attachment 23232


Pasta and the beef, as I don't eat seafood.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

erinch13 said:


> This will be our choices on the CL on July 12. What would you pick?
> View attachment 23232



I’ve had the beef and the shrimp - I would order the shrimp again, I would not order the beef again. The beef was extremely salty - to the point all you tasted was red wine and salt.


----------



## me_little_me

I would get the burger from the Cafe. Second choice would be the dessert and salad. Third would be the Shrimp and andouille sausage and give the shrimp to my wife as I don't eat shrimp.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I'd order a pizza delivered to the next station stop. I've done it.


----------



## Cal

Brian Battuello said:


> I'd order a pizza delivered to the next station stop. I've done it.


Me too.


----------



## neroden

erinch13 said:


> This will be our choices on the CL on July 12. What would you pick?
> View attachment 23232


I would "Open Description" and try to get the ingredients lists. If I couldn't, it's pack my own meal!


----------



## flitcraft

erinch13 said:


> This will be our choices on the CL on July 12. What would you pick?
> View attachment 23232


Had the creole shrimp and andouille on the CL last week--it was the best of the 'flex' meals we had in our three day trip. It is a bit spicy, though, so if you don't do spicy, I would pick something else. (The only time I got the pasta and meatballs, the meatballs were still a bit icy inside...)


----------



## IndyLions

Another vote for the sausage and shrimp. I agree it was a little spicy, but if you like that – it’s the best of the group.


----------



## cocojacoby

Ditto


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> Another vote for the sausage and shrimp. I agree it was a little spicy, but if you like that – it’s the best of the group.


I agree. That is the one I liked the most.


----------



## peteypablo

I just finished a trip where I ate the beef, the chicken and the enchiladas multiple times. I don’t like sausage and when I had this in January I did not like it. I didn’t order the pasta with meatballs. I also was offered a meatless lasagna on the Zephyr in mid June.

The chicken, the enchiladas and the beef were all more edible than I expected based on my experience in January, but I was sooo glad to have traditional dining back for my return trip on the Zephyr. I had the crab cakes, the salmon and the cheesecake for dinner and French toast for breakfast. Better than I remembered it.


----------



## Rasputin

peteypablo said:


> I had the crab cakes, the salmon and the cheesecake for dinner and French toast for breakfast. Better than I remembered it.


Thanks very much for your report. And now, the standard breakfast question: Do you know if grits are being offered with all breakfast entries or only with the continental breakfast option? (I can't imagine that many in the continental breakfast crowd would be fans of grits but I have been wrong before.)
Thanks.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I used to eat grits just about once a year, always on Amtrak. I told the kids they were a strange form of mashed potatoes served for breakfast in the South (this is not true, please don't flame me). No objection to grits, but that was about the right frequency.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Now I thought "polenta" was a strange form of mashed potatoes. I did not care for them.

Listed on the new menu: >> and your choice of oatmeal or grits
I am looking forward to seeing them back. It's a southern staple.


----------



## Rasputin

Way2Kewl said:


> Listed on the new menu: >> and your choice of oatmeal or grits
> I am looking forward to seeing them back. It's a southern staple.


But they are only listed with the continental breakfast option. Previously grits were available as I recall as a choice with all breakfast options.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Rasputin said:


> But they are only listed with the continental breakfast option. Previously grits were available as I recall as a choice with all breakfast options.


I find they can be very flexible. I almost always order the 3 Egg Omelet with grits instead of potatoes. I’ve never been rebuffed. 50% of the time it still comes with potatoes and a bowl of grits on the side. Sometimes I skip the menu and ask for 2 bowls of grits and a croissant.


----------



## Rasputin

Way2Kewl said:


> I find they can be very flexible. I almost always order the 3 Egg Omelet with grits instead of potatoes. I’ve never been rebuffed. 50% of the time it still comes with potatoes and a bowl of grits on the side. Sometimes I skip the menu and ask for 2 bowls of grits and a croissant.


The difference is that for the western long distance trains the pre-pandemic traditional dining menus specifically stated that the scrambled egg entree and the omelet entree came with a choice of potatoes or grits. The new post-pandemic traditional dining menus indicate that for those entrees, they come with potatoes but no mention of grits. For those of us who like having the choice, it would be encouraging to see it stated in the menu and not be dependent on the whim of the employees.


----------



## joelkfla

On pre-pandemic traditional dining, it seemed like there was a great deal of flexibility mixing and matching any entrees and sides, for all 3 meal periods. I'm wondering whether that is still true.


----------



## ms garrison

Rasputin said:


> The difference is that for the western long distance trains the pre-pandemic traditional dining menus specifically stated that the scrambled egg entree and the omelet entree came with a choice of potatoes or grits. The new post-pandemic traditional dining menus indicate that for those entrees, they come with potatoes but no mention of grits. For those of us who like having the choice, it would be encouraging to see it stated in the menu and not be dependent on the whim of the employees.


Just please don't let it be instant grits, an abomination
.


----------



## Rasputin

ms garrison said:


> Just please don't let it be instant grits, an abomination
> .


Whatever they are, I have found them to be quite edible in the past. 
In fact, I will make the observation that on my May 2019 trip on the Lake Shore under contemporary dining of flexible dining, whichever it was, if I have been given a choice between any of the then existing breakfast entrees or a large bowl of grits, I would have gladly taken the grits.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Does anyone actually hunger for grits? Half the reasons I've heard for eating them boil down to something intangible like "they're regional" or "I used to eat them as a kid" and "it's an acquired taste." The other half boil down to "grits taste good when mixed with other flavors you already enjoy." When non-fans say they did not enjoy them invariably the response is that they must not have been prepared correctly rather than admit grits might be unappealing. You could say those things about almost any meal at all, including a baloney sandwich. Having tried grits the best thing I can say about them is "at least they're not oatmeal."


----------



## jiml

Aren't grits and polenta essentially the same thing, ground and cooked differently?


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> Aren't grits and polenta essentially the same thing, ground and cooked differently?


Both are ground Corn. Grits use White Corn, and Polenta Yellow Corn. Usually.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've heard for eating them boil down to something intangible like
> "they're regional" or "I used to eat them as a kid" and "everyone should try them."



Well Mr. Devil... "they're regional"✔ and "I used to eat them as a kid✔(and still do)" and "everyone should try them.✔(at least one)"  Guess it's a Southern thing... Grit's and Dr. Pepper ... I hold my mom responsible.


----------



## ms garrison

Way2Kewl said:


> Well Mr. Devil... "they're regional"✔ and "I used to eat them as a kid✔(and still do)" and "everyone should try them.✔(at least one)"  Guess it's a Southern thing... Grit's and Dr. Pepper ... I hold my mom responsible.
> View attachment 23287





Way2Kewl said:


> Well Mr. Devil... "they're regional"✔ and "I used to eat them as a kid✔(and still do)" and "everyone should try them.✔(at least one)"  Guess it's a Southern thing... Grit's and Dr. Pepper ... I hold my mom responsible.
> View attachment 23287


Ok, another question about dining, specifically, how do people feel about eating in the dining car as opposed to having your food brought to your room. I'll be on the EB east bound in September and while I'm ok (I think) with being in the observation car as long as people are masked and maintaining social distance, the thought of eating with people who will of course be unmasked that will be assigned to my table is troubling. I'm fully vaccinated but also in the target age group. Has anyone done this recently, and if so how did it go? Thanks.


----------



## cassie225

Grits and Dr Pepper!!! I like grits with bacon crumbled in them or cheese in them or sausage in them or eggs in them, my mom also used to smother chicken and put the chicken and gravy in them lol


----------



## jis

ms garrison said:


> Ok, another question about dining, specifically, how do people feel about eating in the dining car as opposed to having your food brought to your room. I'll be on the EB east bound in September and while I'm ok (I think) with being in the observation car as long as people are masked and maintaining social distance, the thought of eating with people who will of course be unmasked that will be assigned to my table is troubling. I'm fully vaccinated but also in the target age group. Has anyone done this recently, and if so how did it go? Thanks.


I have sat in teh Viewliner Diner of Silver Service between Florida and New York and consumed my Flex Meal Breakfast and Lunch. I am also fully vaccinated and in the target age group I had an entire table to myself since there is no shared table seating unless you wish to have someone join you of course. There was lot of space, very solid airflow, so it did not feel like an environment conducive to much transmission, and of course I did not catch anything either. I had my mask on until I started eating and put it back on as soon as I was done eating. This was a couple of months back now when the general transmission rate around the country was much higher than it is now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I have sat in teh Viewliner Diner of Silver Service between Florida and New York and consumed my Flex Meal Breakfast and Lunch. I am also fully vaccinated and in the target age group I had an entire table to myself since there is no shared table seating unless you wish to have someone join you of course. There was lot of space, very solid airflow, so it did not feel like an environment conducive to much transmission, and of course I did not catch anything either. I had my mask on until I started eating and put it back on as soon as I was done eating. This was a couple of months back now when the general transmission rate around the country was much higher than it is now.


I'm pretty sure I've seen posts that the Empire Builder seating is back to communal.


----------



## jis

As long as Delta+ and Kappa are handled somewhat adequately by the mRNA vaccines, I guess it should be all right, and only the unvaccinated and immune compromised will continue to be in severe risk.


----------



## Dustyroad

Does any one remember eating Mush as a kid. It was a rectangle slab that my mom cut into squares and fried. Then we would put butter and syrup (if we had it) or molasses on it. We thought it was great. It is a coarsely ground cornmeal made into polenta and boiled until it was thickened. I think you can still get it in larger stores. And yes, I do like grits also. On my trip this Sept, I will be eating in my roomette.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm pretty sure I've seen posts that the Empire Builder seating is back to communal.


Yep, they are back to communal seating. HOwever according to a report they have a few tables set aside to those who wish to dine alone/ with their party only.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dustyroad said:


> Does any one remember eating Mush as a kid. It was a rectangle slab that my mom cut into squares and fried. Then we would put butter and syrup (if we had it) or molasses on it. We thought it was great. It is a coarsely ground cornmeal made into polenta and boiled until it was thickened. I think you can still get it in larger stores. And yes, I do like grits also. On my trip this Sept, I will be eating in my roomette.


We had that, my mom called it Scraple, it wasn't my favorite but was better than Cream of Wheat or Malto-Meal!


----------



## Sidney

Cal said:


> Yep, they are back to communal seating. HOwever according to a report they have a few tables set aside to those who wish to dine alone/ with their party only.


Are they sitting four solo travelers to one table or just two across from each other?


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Are they sitting four solo travelers to one table or just two across from each other?


I believe four. Not sure.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> Yep, they are back to communal seating. HOwever according to a report they have a few tables set aside to those who wish to dine alone/ with their party only.



I’m sure it would / will vary from crew to crew but there isn’t too much of a reason not to offer this if they aren’t going to allow coach passengers to use the diner.


----------



## OBS

Cal said:


> I believe four. Not sure.


And you believe this because?


----------



## Dustyroad

Bob Dylan said:


> We had that, my mom called it Scraple, it wasn't my favorite but was better than Cream of Wheat or Malto-Meal!


We had it all the time. It was cheaper, and we were glad to have it. I think the government gave it to us.


----------



## MisterUptempo

Dustyroad said:


> We had it all the time. It was cheaper, and we were glad to have it. I think the government gave it to us.


Had it everyday before walking five miles uphill, knee deep in snow, to school, and then five miles uphill home, I'd imagine.


----------



## Dustyroad

MisterUptempo said:


> Had it everyday before walking five miles uphill, knee deep in snow, to school, and then five miles uphill home, I'd imagine.



Same here. Only one car. Not in the driveway when it was time for me to go to school. We got lots of good food from the government in the 50's. Real butter in big blocks, the same with cheese.


----------



## Cal

OBS said:


> And you believe this because?


Someone has said it's almost identical to the traditional dining experience Pre-covid, and in pictures it seemed as if they're seating four people to a table.


----------



## flitcraft

I once spent three months in Jackson MS and often frequented the same diner for breakfast which offered several alternatives served with eggs: biscuits or toast, grits or hashbrowns, bacon or sausage. I always picked toast, hashbrowns, and bacon. "You're not from around here, are you?" I got asked.  But eventually I learned to love cheese grits and shrimp and grits. So even a Yankee can learn to like grits...


----------



## Tlcooper93

I spoke with the SCA on the Silver Meteor, and he said that traditional diner is indeed returning to eastern LD trains (forgive me, I didn't read all 80 pages of this topic, so I'm sure this is somewhere). Its nice to know that eventually it will happen.

He said that hiring all of the people necesary to make traditional dining happen, along with planning all of this is the reason for the likely year long delay.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> I spoke with the SCA on the Silver Meteor, and he said that traditional diner is indeed returning to eastern LD trains (forgive me, I didn't read all 80 pages of this topic, so I'm sure this is somewhere). Its nice to know that eventually it will happen.
> 
> He said that hiring all of the people necesary to make traditional dining happen, along with planning all of this is the reason for the likely year long delay.


That is totally consistent with what I have heard from folks at RPA. One thing that is yet to be determined is what "Traditional Dining" will look like on the Eastern trains. The general sense at present is it will probably be somewhat less elaborate than those on the so called "Experiential" Western trains. Only time will tell.


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> That is totally consistent with what I have heard from folks at RPA. One thing that is yet to be determined is what "Traditional Dining" will look like on the Eastern trains. The general sense at present is it will probably be somewhat less elaborate than those on the so called "Experiential" Western trains. Only time will tell.



Anything is better than what they currently offer...
I'd be happy with roughly half of the menu they offer on Western LD menus. What I think would be really nice is a real breakfast with the usual three egg omlette offering, and a real dinner. Lunch could be largely scaled back. Most eastern trains are only 1 night, so it doesn't need to be too elaborate.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> Anything is better than what they currently offer...
> I'd be happy with roughly half of the menu they offer on Western LD menus. What I think would be really nice is a real breakfast with the usual three egg omlette offering, and a real dinner. Lunch could be largely scaled back. Most eastern trains are only 1 night, so it doesn't need to be too elaborate.


I think all Eastern LD trains are one night trains, unless immensely blessed by the high level of CSX or NS competence on a specific journey.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Speaking strictly for myself I very much enjoyed communal dining and have had many wonderful conversations with strangers. I completely respect anyone who is still concerned and would prefer to eat at their own table or in their room. 

My single exception was when I was once seated with a young mother and two children who were completely unsupervised terrors. 30 seconds after we sat down some table object went flying in many directions and I could not imagine what it would be like to be there when actual liquids arrived.

I gave the attendant my best smile and asked if there was any way I could receive an alternate accommodation. He assessed the situation and immediately moved me.


----------



## Manny T

"...there are two factors that differentiate grits from polenta: the type and texture of the corn.

"While grits can be made with yellow corn, white corn, or hominy, polenta is typically made with yellow corn. In terms of texture, ground corn can vary greatly in consistency. Cornmeal has the finest texture, making it a popular choice for baked goods like cornbread. Grits vary in consistency—instant grits have a finely-ground texture, while stone-ground grits are thicker and toothier—but generally, grits have a slightly thicker texture than cornmeal, yet are still loose enough to form a porridge-like consistency when cooked. Polenta, however, is much coarser than grits, often cooked to a thick, risotto-like texture or even formed into cakes." What’s The Difference Between Polenta and Grits?

As a northerner, I began eating grits on a vacation to Texas and enjoyed them. The versions I find up north and on Amtrak are different, both in terms of texture, seasoning and yes, grittiness, but still enjoyable.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I love corn but do not care for grits or polenta. And I truly love potatoes with eggs at breakfast.

So a perfect breakfast for me would be eggs, potatoes, and corn bread.

Or spoonbread—anyone remember that from the brunch buffets in the “eat til you stuff yourself” days before we all started thinking healthier?

It was made of corn, I believe, but very sweet, like dessert, and had about a zillion calories.


----------



## cocojacoby

ms garrison said:


> Ok, another question about dining, specifically, how do people feel about eating in the dining car as opposed to having your food brought to your room.



After waiting forever for these new Viewliner diners, which many say are beautiful, I am going to enjoy sitting in one of them whenever I can.


----------



## Sidney

Tlcooper93 said:


> Anything is better than what they currently offer...
> I'd be happy with roughly half of the menu they offer on Western LD menus. What I think would be really nice is a real breakfast with the usual three egg omlette offering, and a real dinner. Lunch could be largely scaled back. Most eastern trains are only 1 night, so it doesn't need to be too elaborate.


Just to have traditional dining back on the Eastern trains at even half of what they are serving elsewhere would be most welcome. As has been said many times here,flexible dining is awful and should never have been implemented.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box. That didn't go over very well. And they had a series of announcements that the box was what they thought people wanted! It was even more criminal when it spread to the entire east coast fleet.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Brian Battuello said:


> I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box. That didn't go over very well. And they had a series of announcements that the box was what they thought people wanted! It was even more criminal when it spread to the entire east coast fleet.



Amtrak seems to always pass off unpopular decisions as "what people want."
If people are riding a train (and paying for a sleeper) in the first place, chances are they want the real deal...


----------



## Brian Battuello

I am more likely to believe in a sekrit "center of inconvenience" than a "center of excellence".


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Brian Battuello said:


> I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box. That didn't go over very well. And they had a series of announcements that the box was what they thought people wanted! It was even more criminal when it spread to the entire east coast fleet.



I never had one of the contemporary dining meals but based on photos and reviews it was a huge step up over what I had as flex dining on the meteor.


----------



## Sidney

Brian Battuello said:


> I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box. That didn't go over very well. And they had a series of announcements that the box was what they thought people wanted! It was even more criminal when it spread to the entire east coast fleet.


With tongue firmly in cheek,flex dining was such a huge hit on the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore,that it was expanded to all the Eastern trains over a year later. Amtrak listened to it's passengers and gave them what they wanted!

It is great traditional dining has returned to all but one of the Western trains. When traditional dining is returned to every other long distance train ,a huge wrong will have been righted.


----------



## cocojacoby

Brian Battuello said:


> I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box.


Actually wasn't it a wooden box?

A also have to admit that I wasn't hip enough to know exactly what a charcuterie was


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Actually wasn't it a wooden box?


Yes. Something like Balsa as I recall.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Brian Battuello said:


> I've been trying to forget that when "Contemporary Dining" was first introduced on the LSL, the only choice was a cold cardboard box. That didn't go over very well. And they had a series of announcements that the box was what they thought people wanted! It was even more criminal when it spread to the entire east coast fleet.


It was actually a Nice Wooden Box, but what was inside was basically a Big Step Down from Traditional Dining.!( I had them on the Cap and the LSL)


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> It was actually a Nice Wooden Box, but what was inside was basically a Big Step Down from Traditional Dining.!( I had them on the Cap and the LSL)


As I seem to recall there was no hot entry when Contemporary Dining was originally introduced on the LSL and the Cap.









New and Contemporary Dining Soon on Two Amtrak Routes - Amtrak Media


Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains starting June 1.



media.amtrak.com





It was all salads, sandwich and chilled meat and stuff. They said that Millennials do not like hot food or some nonsense of that sort.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> As I seem to recall there was no hot entry when Contemporary Dining was originally introduced on the LSL and the Cap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New and Contemporary Dining Soon on Two Amtrak Routes - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains starting June 1.
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was all salads, sandwich and chilled meat and stuff. They said that Millennials do not like hot food or some nonsense of that sort.


You are correct Sir! And the Breakfast was really terrible, a Super Sugar Bomb !!!


----------



## Dakota 400

Dustyroad said:


> Does any one remember eating Mush as a kid.



Yes, I do remember that and I liked it. There is restaurant chain called Bob Evans. At one time, Mush was an item on their menu. I ordered in awhile and still liked it. Whether they still offer it, I don't know. Have not been to one of their restaurants recently.



Mystic River Dragon said:


> spoonbread



Yes, I do remember that. Didn't have it very often and have no memory of where it was when I did.


----------



## Dakota 400

Brian Battuello said:


> Speaking strictly for myself I very much enjoyed communal dining and have had many wonderful conversations with strangers.



I enjoy communal dining as well except when my tablemate spends more time playing with his phone instead of engaging with me or any others at our table.


----------



## johann

In no way am I a gourmet or picky eater, but between 4 meals each for my wife and me, I sampled all 5 of the Flex Dining entrees on our Silver Star Roomette trip north on 7 June and south on the Silver Meteor on 28-29 June. All are just barely eatable. If you are hungry. 

Luckily we had a 90-minute train change from the 93 to 97 in NYP and loaded up on food as well as comfort in the wonderful new Moynihan Amtrak Lounge. I even carried a salad and sandwich back for the best meal I had on the train. Attached is a photo of my Beef Flex, which I mostly ate except for the potatoes [Or was that rice?], my wife's Meatball Flex AFTER she was finished, and a place setting from 1947 I saw at the Tampa station. 

If the Burger King offered Flex meals for the price of an Amtrak tip, I'd get the Whopper.

As others have said on this forum, STOP BY THE NYP LOUNGE. The $50 non-ticked fee alone is almost worth it. It certainly is better than what $35 gets a non-ticketed person in BOS! 



Sidney said:


> Just to have traditional dining back on the Eastern trains at even half of what they are serving elsewhere would be most welcome. As has been said many times here,flexible dining is awful and should never have been implemented.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Tlcooper93 said:


> I spoke with the SCA on the Silver Meteor, and he said that traditional diner is indeed returning to eastern LD trains (forgive me, I didn't read all 80 pages of this topic, so I'm sure this is somewhere). Its nice to know that eventually it will happen.
> 
> He said that hiring all of the people necesary to make traditional dining happen, along with planning all of this is the reason for the likely year long delay.



Given the return to Western trains, they have a template so there is no reason it should take a year to implement on Eastern trains, even if it looks somewhat different. That is, unless they are waiting for FY 2022 appropriations.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> It was all salads, sandwich and chilled meat and stuff. They said that Millennials do not like hot food or some nonsense of that sort.



Well sometimes we do like salads and sandwiches. The idea of having a high quality entree salad and a high quality sandwich on the menu is excellent. But they shouldn’t be the only options available. I would still rather have only cold items that were of decent quality than the flex meals that were of poor quality. 



Dakota 400 said:


> I enjoy communal dining as well except when my tablemate spends more time playing with his phone instead of engaging with me or any others at our table.



I told you I was just watching the speed and our distance from the big 10 curves!!!  



PaTrainFan said:


> Given the return to Western trains, they have a template so there is no reason it should take a year to implement on Eastern trains, even if it looks somewhat different. That is, unless they are waiting for FY 2022 appropriations.



I think the issue is that when traditional dining went away from the eastern trains in 2019, they never planned to bring it back.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the issue is that when traditional dining went away from the eastern trains in 2019, they never planned to bring it back.


Right. They dismantled the infrastructure. Now they have to rebuild Humpty-Dumpty.


----------



## Sidney

jis said:


> As I seem to recall there was no hot entry when Contemporary Dining was originally introduced on the LSL and the Cap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New and Contemporary Dining Soon on Two Amtrak Routes - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains starting June 1.
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was all salads, sandwich and chilled meat and stuff. They said that Millennials do not like hot food or some nonsense of that sort.


I think Anderson's words were something like millennials do not enjoy being seated with other people in the diner. That one statement brought on one of the biggest bombs in Amtrak history


----------



## lordsigma

on my trip home on the lake shore there seemed to be two OBS employees working in the VL2 diner (only one on the way out) and they now seem to be using all tables in the VL2 diner and they are doing table service with the flex meals - no need to go up to the LSA. Not sure if this is a new standard for the lake shore and silvers will be interesting to see or if this was a once off


----------



## Cal

From all reports we've gotten, traditional dining does seem to have a planned return on most, if not all Eastern routes. 

Although this is very unlikely to happen, I hope that the menu has some things not on the Western one (such as pancakes).

Either way, great news. Hopefully it can be implemented by the end of the year.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Well maybe Anderson was right. I don't think I would've enjoyed sitting with him either.


----------



## lordsigma

By the way there is clearly now a convection oven In the VL2 diners they are using for the flex meals I spotted the LSA using it and they are using metal tops. I will say the flex meals came out better and less nuked on this trip than previous.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Right. They dismantled the infrastructure. Now they have to rebuild Humpty-Dumpty.


Fortunately, they didn't get around to 'dismantling' the diner galley's and convert them to some sort of snack bar, which at one point was their intention....


----------



## bestcee

lordsigma said:


> They say they're going to open up eventually - next trip try for an upgrade to a sleeper. You never know you may get it.



I didn't for 2 reasons: 
1) All the information available was that dining food wasn't starting until the second day of my trip. Why pay the extra if it's going to be the crappy meals posted about here for 1/2 the meals? 
2) Money. I didn't have an extra $250 for the 'low' bid for a sleeper. I definitely didn't have the $450 for the good bid. Sure, I could justify it by saying I'd get more than $250 value out of the food options, but I don't think I would have, plus you have to have the money to spend. We spent $13 in the café car instead.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Fortunately, they didn't get around to 'dismantling' the diner galley's and convert them to some sort of snack bar, which at one point was their intention....



Not yet. It sounds like they are still considering lots of options for the single level trains.


----------



## lordsigma

bestcee said:


> I didn't for 2 reasons:
> 1) All the information available was that dining food wasn't starting until the second day of my trip. Why pay the extra if it's going to be the crappy meals posted about here for 1/2 the meals?
> 2) Money. I didn't have an extra $250 for the 'low' bid for a sleeper. I definitely didn't have the $450 for the good bid. Sure, I could justify it by saying I'd get more than $250 value out of the food options, but I don't think I would have, plus you have to have the money to spend. We spent $13 in the café car instead.


What day was your trip? There were no “half meal” trains. Your train would either have flexible dining or traditional depending on departure date and direction.


----------



## peteypablo

Rasputin said:


> Thanks very much for your report. And now, the standard breakfast question: Do you know if grits are being offered with all breakfast entries or only with the continental breakfast option? (I can't imagine that many in the continental breakfast crowd would be fans of grits but I have been wrong before.)
> Thanks.



Grits are only mentioned on the menu as part of the continental breakfast.


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not yet. It sounds like they are still considering lots of options for the single level trains.


I haven't heard recently of what 'option's' they are considering, but I sure hope they decide to restore the eastern long haul's the same way they are restoring the western long hauls. It's simply the right thing to do...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> I haven't heard recently of what 'option's' they are considering, but I sure hope they decide to restore the eastern long haul's the same way they are restoring the western long hauls. It's simply the right thing to do...



“
We are continuing to evaluate our offering and looking at some alternatives,” he said of dining options on eastern routes. “But our intention, at least at this time, is not to bring this traditional dining approach to the eastern trains.”
“

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-dining-car-service/


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> “
> We are continuing to evaluate our offering and looking at some alternatives,” he said of dining options on eastern routes. “But our intention, at least at this time, is not to bring this traditional dining approach to the eastern trains.”
> “
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-dining-car-service/


Let's hope they change their mind, once they hear of how popular the western restoration is with their customer's....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I think a few of the trains would be fine with the original “cross country cafe” style- a chef is on board to prepare food but it’s more of a casual / counter service style restaurant without the table cloths, table service etc. 

But we need real food - that’s for sure!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

When will traditional dining be restored to eastern trains? Has Amtrak announced a date?


----------



## TEREB

Bob Dylan said:


> We had that, my mom called it Scraple, it wasn't my favorite but was better than Cream of Wheat or Malto-Meal!


I thought that Scrapple was a pork product. My southern grandmother fried it up for us and I loved it. 
As far as grits, I can’t remember my southern grandmother making it. My husband and I had it for the first time on Amtrak. I eat it plain. No milk, no butter and no salt. Hubby eats it with everything. It is a favorite.


----------



## TEREB

Dustyroad said:


> We had it all the time. It was cheaper, and we were glad to have it. I think the government gave it to us.


I see it in our local Publix. As much as I loved it as a kid, I hesitate buying it now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TEREB said:


> I thought that Scrapple was a pork product. My southern grandmother fried it up for us and I loved it.


Yes, it is a pork product. 
From the scrapple capital: www.rapascrapple.com/original-rapa-scrapple

No, never ate it and never will.


----------



## Rasputin

I haven't seen anything from Amtrak itself that gives me any confidence that anything close to traditional dining is going to be restored to the eastern trains. My impression is that all they seem to be talking about as far as the eastern trains is rearranging the deck chairs by selecting different and perhaps better frozen entrees. 

I had some great traditional dining meals on the Lake Shore, even when the diner-lite car was operating. I recall on one cross country round trip, the steak dinner on the Lake Shore leaving Albany was the best steak dinner of the whole trip and I sampled several on different trains on that trip. I am not confident that I will be having a steak dinner on the Lake Shore again unless I buy it elsewhere and bring it onboard.


----------



## jis

It is more than likely that the eastern trains will minimally get the sort of food that was served in the Dinette of Cardinal before Contemporary and all that came about. It is also possible that there may be a few cooked things for Breakfast and perhaps a Flat Iron type steak, but don't hold your breath on the latter. My suspicion is that it won't go beyond that, though simple software stuff like better tableware and perhaps even fake flower on each table may come about.

Just my guesses. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> Yes, it is a pork product.
> From the scrapple capital: www.rapascrapple.com/original-rapa-scrapple
> 
> No, never ate it and never will.


Wikipedia says, "*Scrapple*, also known by the Pennsylvania Dutch name Pannhaas or "pan rabbit", is traditionally a mush of pork scraps and trimmings combined with cornmeal and wheat flour, often buckwheat flour, and spices."

So I guess it could also be called mush. I've had it, and it actually tastes pretty good when fried up nice and brown. I probably wouldn't have had it if I'd known beforehand what was in it. But that's true of a lot of sausage products.


----------



## Larry H.

Bob Dylan said:


> We had that, my mom called it Scraple, it wasn't my favorite but was better than Cream of Wheat or Malto-Meal!



My Grandmother made a version of this they called Gatta? It was steel cut oats and had equal amount of Pork ground up and then cooked together, it was also fried with a crispy crust and served with Syrup over it. I have never tired to make it my self, they used to cover it with a layer of lard and kept it in the basement till they wanted to fry some.. Different times I guess.


----------



## Cal

Rasputin said:


> I haven't seen anything from Amtrak itself that gives me any confidence that anything close to traditional dining is going to be restored to the eastern trains. My impression is that all they seem to be talking about as far as the eastern trains is rearranging the deck chairs by selecting different and perhaps better frozen entrees.
> 
> I had some great traditional dining meals on the Lake Shore, even when the diner-lite car was operating. I recall on one cross country round trip, the steak dinner on the Lake Shore leaving Albany was the best steak dinner of the whole trip and I sampled several on different trains on that trip. I am not confident that I will be having a steak dinner on the Lake Shore again unless I buy it elsewhere and bring it onboard.


I'm semi-confident. In an article that was posted somewhere in this thread someone from Amtrak said they were looking into having a smaller menu of traditional dining on Eastern trains, along with several reports from OBS across the network. Additionally, a member said the RPA was also stating that it would be coming back (can someone confirm?).


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> I'm semi-confident. In an article that was posted somewhere in this thread someone from Amtrak said they were looking into having a smaller menu of traditional dining on Eastern trains, along with several reports from OBS across the network. Additionally, a member said the RPA was also stating that it would be coming back (can someone confirm?).


That's the problem with Amtrak, they've lost their Creditbility with their Press Releases full of Nonsense and Smoke and Mirror BS about the various Meal Service Systems they've tried since the Millenial Meals in a Box( aka Fresh and Contemperary), Flexible Dinning and the Reasons given for the Shortened Consists during the ever increasing SummerPassenger Spike!

I'm from Missouri on this one, Don't tell me Amtrak, Show Me! YMMV


----------



## Dustyroad

TEREB said:


> I see it in our local Publix. As much as I loved it as a kid, I hesitate buying it now.


I haven't seen it for years. But, when we were kids, we were taught to eat what was put in front of us. That or go hungry. I choose not to go hungry .


----------



## lordsigma

one thing I noticed coming home is that even with traditional dining back for sleeping car passengers they have not yet revised the national cafe car menu yet which is currently rather lacking - all of the “fresh selections” like salads and sandwiches were cut out for the pandemic - they should bring those back soonest. Auto train of course was the one exception which has not had any F&B cuts for Covid. It does sound like refreshing the national cafe menu is next on the agenda (before they look at eastern sleeper dining.) NEC cafe cars hopefully will also get revised as they are lacking even more.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> one thing I noticed coming home is that even with traditional dining back for sleeping car passengers they have not yet revised the national cafe car menu yet which is currently rather lacking - all of the “fresh selections” like salads and sandwiches were cut out for the pandemic - they should bring those back soonest. Auto train of course was the one exception which has not had any F&B cuts for Covid. It does sound like refreshing the cafe menu is next on the agenda (before they look at eastern sleeper dining.)


They did remove the complementary dinner for Coach passengers, but arguably that was independent of COVID possibly.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> They did remove the complementary dinner for Coach passengers, but arguably that was independent of COVID possibly.


That was in January of ‘19 I think around the same time “flexible dining” got extended to other trains. The funny thing about the revised auto train cafe menu they did when they axed the coach diner is they sell two of the flex dining items for $16 so we know how much Amtrak thinks they are worth.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> That was in January of ‘19 I think around the same time “flexible dining” got extended to other trains. The funny thing about the revised auto train cafe menu they did when they axed the coach diner is they sell two of the flex dining items for $16 so we know how much Amtrak thinks they are worth.


For $16, that's $14 more than they would cost @ any Grocery Store, so Flex Meals could actually be a Revenue Source if/when Coach Passengers are allowed to once again eat in the Diners!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> For $16, that's $14 more than they would cost @ any Grocery Store, so Flex Meals could actually be a Revenue Source if/when Coach Passengers are allowed to once again eat in the Diners!


Then again, how many Coach passengers are actually going to pay $16 for that slop? How are sales doing on the Auto Train, which admittedly has a somewhat more financially capable clientele possibly than your run of the mill LD train in Coach?


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> Then again, how many Coach passengers are actually going to pay $16 for that slop? How are sales doing on the Auto Train, which admittedly has a somewhat more financially capable clientele possibly than your run of the mill LD train in Coach?


I certainly won't.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> What day was your trip? There were no “half meal” trains. Your train would either have flexible dining or traditional depending on departure date and direction.


Isn't the TE CHI to LAX sort of a half meal train? It is Flex upto San Antonio and then Traditional as part of the Sunset, no?


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Isn't the TE CHI to LAX sort of a half meal train? It is Flex upto San Antonio and then Traditional as part of the Sunset, no?


YEP!( same thing with the Sightseer Lounge)

And while not a Direct Connection, the same would be True re Meals for any Eastern Train if you were continuing to/from Florida on the Auto Train in a Sleeper.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> YEP!( same thing with the Sightseer Lounge)
> 
> And while not a Direct Connection, the same would be True re Meals for any Eastern Train if you were continuing to/from Florida on the Auto Train in a Sleeper.


Well you can't really connect to/from Auto Train without first acquiring an Auto at the connection point though 

You also have to "drive" to the Auto Train station. There is no realistic train connection to those either.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Well you can't really connect to/from Auto Train without first acquiring an Auto at the connection point though


True, it's Theoretical, but has happened I'm sure.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Isn't the TE CHI to LAX sort of a half meal train? It is Flex upto San Antonio and then Traditional as part of the Sunset, no?


Oh right - I might have misread - I thought they were referring to a train that departed before the traditional dining return day (getting flex dining the first day and traditional the second) which is what I was referring to. But I guess it does apply to the TE/Sunset.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Oh right - I might have misread - I thought they were referring to a train that departed before the traditional dining return day (getting flex dining the first day and traditional the second) which is what I was referring to. But I guess it does apply to the TE/Sunset.


I figured as much. That's why I thought I'd bring up the other possible interpretation.


----------



## west point

Do not expect full dining for sleepers service on east coast trains or allowing coach passengers on west coast trains in the dining cars any time soon. getting reports Amtrak is too short of OBS persons at present. Replacement OBS will not be available before September at earliest. 
Just another business who expected personnel to return after furlough.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Only job posting for extra board personnel was in Seattle. Very short trains this summer. More Superliners are been use in local services. Even some wreck Superliners are getting sold. The conspiracy theory say that denial of the coach passengers to have food in the dinner is not from a shortage of OBS crew.


----------



## me_little_me

I personally don't think Amtrak is in a rush to hire people to bring back eastern dining. I think they probably realize that their past decision will replace "New Coke" as the defining example of corporate stupidity. Coke had the smarts to make their failure pay off and extricated themselves. We'll see if Amtrak can do the same but they'll probably be remembered in MBA classes for a long time.


----------



## flitcraft

This is just one data point, but on my recent (and still flex dining) trip on the Empire Builder, both dining car attendants had just been recalled back from furlough and were clearly rusty. At one point, the lead attendant blew up at his colleague and yelled at her about seating. I thought for a minute he was going to go full Basil Fawlty on her! He later admitted to her that he was having a hard time getting back into the swing of running the dining car efficiently. I would guess that having completely full dining cars with coach as well as sleeping car passengers would make it tougher to get the staff back up to speed. But I don't doubt that Amtrak would prefer to get coach passengers back into the dining cars quickly, since they can make more money off dining car meals than cafe meals, I would presume.


----------



## lordsigma

On my recent trip where I had traditional dining on the Chief - there were two crew members in the diner serving - the LSA and one SA - didn’t the western trains have two SAs before? It was my crew’s first run serving traditional dining since the pandemic started. I think they had 2 working downstairs based on what I was hearing. Chef and food specialist but I didn’t see them or ask.


----------



## drdumont

lordsigma said:


> on my trip home on the lake shore there seemed to be two OBS employees working in the VL2 diner (only one on the way out) and they now seem to be using all tables in the VL2 diner and they are doing table service with the flex meals - no need to go up to the LSA. Not sure if this is a new standard for the lake shore and silvers will be interesting to see or if this was a once off


Using all the tables in the Diner for DINING? HORRORS! Where are the FSAs going to store their stuff they couldn't be bothered to store properly? Where are all the trainmen and car attendants going to sit and tell each other how badly they are being treated by Amtrak? This injustice MUST NOT CONTINUE!


----------



## toddinde

Bob Dylan said:


> YEP!( same thing with the Sightseer Lounge)
> 
> And while not a Direct Connection, the same would be True re Meals for any Eastern Train if you were continuing to/from Florida on the Auto Train in a Sleeper.


Yes, but you can’t connect to the Auto Train, you have to have a car to ride it. The Texas Eagle is advertised as a through train since it has through cars on the Sunset, so
I’m going with what the OP said.


----------



## drdumont

The Eagle is 21 (S)/22(N). At San Antonio, cars from 1 and 2 are cut off The Sunset Limited and proceed to Chicago as 422. And of course 421 is a section on 21 that connects to The Sunset. Fares are oftimes different SAS-CHI depending on which section. I'm hoping that amenities on the thru section of 1/2 would "bleed over" onto the Chicago portiion.
Last time I went "thru", my sleeper was switched and I didn't have to change. I got off Southbound, went to the Riverwalk and returned to my berth about 0130. Woke up somewhere out West.


----------



## jis

drdumont said:


> The Eagle is 21 (S)/22(N). At San Antonio, cars from 1 and 2 are cut off The Sunset Limited and proceed to Chicago as 422. And of course 421 is a section on 21 that connects to The Sunset. Fares are oftimes different SAS-CHI depending on which section. I'm hoping that amenities on the thru section of 1/2 would "bleed over" onto the Chicago portiion.


You are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting such bleed over onto the SAS - CHI segment  They will do all the bleeding only between SAS and LAX.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> You are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting such bleed over onto the SAS - CHI segment  They will do all the bleeding only between SAS and LAX.


Sadly this is too True! The Eagle and the Cap Ltd. are the Rodney Dangerfield of Amtrak, They Don't Get Any Respect!


----------



## drdumont

jis said:


> You are setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting such bleed over onto the SAS - CHI segment  They will do all the bleeding only between SAS and LAX.





Bob Dylan said:


> Sadly this is too True! The Eagle and the Cap Ltd. are the Rodney Dangerfield of Amtrak, They Don't Get Any Respect!


True, sadly true. 
@Bob Dylan: That there's funny, I don't care who you are!
But Virginia, don't you believe in miracles?
I also buy Lottery Tickets
hope springing eternal in this withered old breast.. 
Sigh...


----------



## west point

Will it be that Amtrak management will not discipline OBS until it has enough spare OBS to use firing as an option ?


----------



## johann

lordsigma said:


> That was in January of ‘19 I think around the same time “flexible dining” got extended to other trains. The funny thing about the revised auto train cafe menu they did when they axed the coach diner is they sell two of the flex dining items for $16 so we know how much Amtrak thinks they are worth.



For four meals on the Silvers last month, my wife and I shared two Flexes [yes, 8 Flexes!]. I'd have preferred the $16. Or one Five Guys small burger and fries which, for less than $10 feeds us both with a bonus of cold fries for the dog when we get home. The only possible upside for a a pair of Flexes is that there is more for the dog.


----------



## OBS

west point said:


> Will it be that Amtrak management will not discipline OBS until it has enough spare OBS to use firing as an option ?


Not based upon my experience....

It is important that complaints of this nature are communicated to Amtrak. Without passenger complaints, management often has no awareness of the issues.


----------



## zephyr17

OBS said:


> Without passenger complaints, management often has no awareness of the issues.


Of course, they could always try putting actual supervision onboard.

With that said, complaints are the only way now to let Amtrak know, since there is effectively no supervision now.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> Of course, they could always try putting actual supervision onboard.
> 
> With that said, complaints are the only way now to let Amtrak know, since there is effectively no supervision now.


Here is a thread on the history of the OBS Chief position in the Amtrak era which you might find interesting...





__





What is a "train manager"?


A couple of times since Oct., I've been waiting in a lounge when someone identified him or herself as the train manager - CS and CL were the two trains involved. What duties does such a position involve?




www.amtraktrains.com





Amtrak did inherit such a thing from the pre-Amtrak railroads as a union employee position but ditched the position at some point, then tried to reinstate it as a management (non-union) position, which the unions fought tooth and nail and won. After that no one has talked about it ever again at Amtrak. It is always more fun to work unsupervised after all, I suppose


----------



## lordsigma

Isn’t there still an on board services chief on the auto train? I think that’s the only train that still has it.


----------



## OBS

lordsigma said:


> Isn’t there still an on board services chief on the auto train? I think that’s the only train that still has it.


They eliminated about half of the A/T Chief's jobs (to save money), so they ride inconsistently as they are assigned.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

When I was a kid a waiter on the empire builder scolded my mom for wanting to have salad and a baked potato for dinner. She was able to talk with the chief of on board services about this issue and she was able to resolve it to my mom’s liking. Basically we got so much free stuff from the lounge... which meant more m&m’s for me! Ha. 

So the Chief of OBS was able to fix some customer service issues on board the trains.


----------



## Rasputin

Bob Dylan said:


> Sadly this is too True! The Eagle and the Cap Ltd. are the Rodney Dangerfield of Amtrak, They Don't Get Any Respect!


I disagree. While they do provide some competition, the real Rodney Dangerfield trains of Amtrak are 448 and 449, the Boston section of the Lake Shore.


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I disagree. While they do provide some competition, the real Rodney Dangerfield trains of Amtrak are 448 and 449, the Boston section of the Lake Shore.


Boston section did get its second coach back recently.


----------



## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> Boston section did get its second coach back recently.


The additional capacity merely serves to allow these trains to haul more victims.


----------



## Cal

I'm sure this has been asked somewhere, but when does the diner open on #3's last day? Getting off at Fullerton and would like to wake up early enough to enjoy breakfast


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I'm sure this has been asked somewhere, but when does the diner open on #3's last day? Getting off at Fullerton and would like to wake up early enough to enjoy breakfast


Historically opened for seating at San Bernardino (5:42 am), seating stops at Riverside (6:05 am). Fullerton is at 6:54 am and it's a D stop, so if they get there early, they'll leave early.

Not sure if they're still waiting to get to Berdoo. I'd use 5:30 am as a guide. They should announce the breakfast times the evening before. Ask at dinner to be sure 

If you were going to LA, I'd say chuck their breakfast and eat at Phillipes, but you aren't, so get packed up and hit the diner before 6.


----------



## Sidney

BC before Covid,I believe the Chief served a limited breakfast on the last morning into LA. Not sure what they are doing now. Agree on Phillipes breakfast. They open at 7 and give huge portions. Coffee is included in the price.


----------



## Railspike

I ALWAYS send an email to Amtrak after every trip. I notify them of either the "good" and/or "bad" experiences of the trip. There used to be a Manager of each train pre-COVID. Don't know about now. The Sunset Manager's office was in Union Station in LA. I didn't know there was a manager of each train until I heard from him due to a complaint that landed on his desk and he contacted me. Let them hear from you. They can't fix what they don't know.


----------



## OBS

Railspike said:


> I ALWAYS send an email to Amtrak after every trip. I notify them of either the "good" and/or "bad" experiences of the trip. There used to be a Manager of each train pre-COVID. Don't know about now. The Sunset Manager's office was in Union Station in LA. I didn't know there was a manager of each train until I heard from him due to a complaint that landed on his desk and he contacted me. Let them hear from you. They can't fix what they don't know.


Thanks for sending the emails! Yes, each train does still have a Manager.


----------



## Bob Dylan

OBS said:


> Thanks for sending the emails! Yes, each train does still have a Manager.


And the Good ones ride their Trains regularly instead of riding their Desk!


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> Historically opened for seating at San Bernardino (5:42 am), seating stops at Riverside (6:05 am). Fullerton is at 6:54 am and it's a D stop, so if they get there early, they'll leave early.
> 
> Not sure if they're still waiting to get to Berdoo. I'd use 5:30 am as a guide. They should announce the breakfast times the evening before. Ask at dinner to be sure


Alright, thanks. It would be ideal for _me_ if we were several hours late. I would be able to go to breakfast and see Cajon Pass in the daylight. 



zephyr17 said:


> If you were going to LA, I'd say chuck their breakfast and eat at Phillipes, but you aren't, so get packed up and hit the diner before 6.





Sidney said:


> Agree on Phillipes breakfast. They open at 7 and give huge portions. Coffee is included in the price.


I don't travel long distance by Amtrak too much, and all my last trips have been with flex. So even if I was going to LA I'd rather eat in the diner and enjoy one last traditional dining breakfast. It will probably be quite some time before I get on one again. But thanks for the advice, might check out Phillipes if I'm in LA some time.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Wow. One hundred pages of Amtrak Dining. Almost makes me hungry enough to eat a flex meal.


----------



## johann

Presumably “Flex” comes from flexible, which means “susceptible of modification or adaptation” according to my dictionary.

Unfortunately after 100 pages of posts since the first one a mere six months ago, “modification or adaptation” continues to be restricted to the tight confines of the Flex Five quintet.

A genuine example of Flex embodied in just three choices, is choosing a way to get from BON to BOS – walk, über, T.


----------



## jis

johann said:


> Presumably “Flex” comes from flexible, which means “susceptible of modification or adaptation” according to my dictionary.
> 
> Unfortunately after 100 pages of posts since the first one a mere six months ago, “modification or adaptation” continues to be restricted to the tight confines of the Flex Five quintet.


Flexible Dining does not have anything to do with the flexibility of the menu. Indeed as you point out, the menu is as rigid as it can be. The Flexibility was supposed to be about time, but even that seems to have fallen by the wayside over time. So like many other Orwellian things the name literally interpreted is actually the exact opposite of reality.  I am at least relieved that they have not tried to call it _Haute Cuisine_ yet.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Flexible Dining does not have anything to do with the flexibility of the menu. Indeed as you point out, the menu is as rigid as it can be. The Flexibility was supposed to be about time, but even that seems to have fallen by the wayside over time. So like many other Orwellian things the name literally interpreted is actually the exact opposite of reality.  I am at least relieved that they have not tried to call it _Haute Cuisine_ yet.


Wonder what Amtraks Spin Doctors will call the New Traditional Dining when it's fully implemented on all LD Trains?

Gourmet Cuisine? Millennial Meals??


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Bob Dylan said:


> Wonder what Amtraks Spin Doctors will call the New Traditional Dining when it's fully implemented on all LD Trains?
> 
> Gourmet Cuisine? Millennial Meals??


Rail-ly Good Food!


----------



## Brian Battuello

I still have indigestion from "contemporary cuisine".


----------



## Rambling Robert

By shear luck I made my way up two cars to the cafe on the LSL - just as it became unbelievably in demand due to a sold out coach section. Having starved myself on the DownEaster in the morning and no lunch, the pizza and burger was fun to eat for dinner - on a train. Fortunately there was table space.

. As I ate in the 1/2 cafe the line grew exponentially - up to 50. Going through the switches without warning isn’t fun to someone who once had to learn to walk again. If I attempted treturn to my seat was no way my food or drink was going to stay in the silly cardboard container

Does the train horn announce a code approaching a switch?

81 hour this trip for the most part was a great one. I was hoping to have food delivered to the train but chickened out. Having a great food experience in 2017 has sold other people to ty Amtrak. But in 2919 and 2021 meh.

CEOs make the decisions but the ultimate source of funding Amtraks operation in the taxpayer and railroad traveler.

To sum it up: community traditional dining and include Coach passengers.


----------



## Cal

Rambling Robert said:


> Does the train horn announce a code approaching a switch?


AFAIK it does not


----------



## Rambling Robert

Oh good - I’ll just add that to my list of twenty some items that will make me a zillionaire! haha.

Thanks Cal.

I’m pretty sure that as a younger person Thomas Edison was ejected off a train by a conductor who twisted his ear making him tumble from the train. His resultant hearing loss had a relation to his inventiveness.


----------



## Night Ranger

Rambling Robert said:


> Oh good - I’ll just add that to my list of twenty some items that will make me a zillionaire! haha.
> 
> Thanks Cal.
> 
> I’m pretty sure that as a younger person Thomas Edison was ejected off a train by a conductor who twisted his ear making him tumble from the train. His resultant hearing loss had a relation to his inventiveness.


Sounds as though we had the same history teacher.

As far as I know the story is true. He was a "candy butcher" who sold candy to passengers and was thrown off of a train by a conductor for moving too slowly. There is another story I read years ago that said he was sent him early in his school career because his teacher told his mother that he was "slow" and did not learn well. That was how he came to be a "candy butcher." Maybe candy was that era's equivalent of flex dining.


----------



## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> Wonder what Amtraks Spin Doctors will call the New Traditional Dining when it's fully implemented on all LD Trains?
> 
> Gourmet Cuisine? Millennial Meals??


Amtrak! Our meals aren't crap anymore!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Night Ranger said:


> He was a "candy butcher" who sold candy to passengers and was thrown off of a train by a conductor for moving too slowly.



Thomas Edison was thrown off the train at Smith’s Creek Station in Michigan for setting a fire in the baggage car (a result of his experiments that he brought along with him). 

Smiths Creek Station is at the Henry Ford Greenfield Village (adjacent to the Amtrak line) as well as Thomas Edison’s Menlo Park laboratory.


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> Wonder what Amtraks Spin Doctors will call the New Traditional Dining when it's fully implemented on all LD Trains?
> 
> Gourmet Cuisine? Millennial Meals??


They will claim that is what and how millennials like to eat. But we all know millennials want flex meals at any time of the day or night.


----------



## Night Ranger

crescent-zephyr said:


> Thomas Edison was thrown off the train at Smith’s Creek Station in Michigan for setting a fire in the baggage car (a result of his experiments that he brought along with him).
> 
> Smiths Creek Station is at the Henry Ford Greenfield Village (adjacent to the Amtrak line) as well as Thomas Edison’s Menlo Park laboratory.


THANKS for the correction. "Alternate facts" are for politicians only.


----------



## lordsigma

Rambling Robert said:


> By shear luck I made my way up two cars to the cafe on the LSL - just as it became unbelievably in demand due to a sold out coach section. Having starved myself on the DownEaster in the morning and no lunch, the pizza and burger was fun to eat for dinner - on a train. Fortunately there was table space.
> 
> . As I ate in the 1/2 cafe the line grew exponentially - up to 50. Going through the switches without warning isn’t fun to someone who once had to learn to walk again. If I attempted treturn to my seat was no way my food or drink was going to stay in the silly cardboard container
> 
> Does the train horn announce a code approaching a switch?
> 
> 81 hour this trip for the most part was a great one. I was hoping to have food delivered to the train but chickened out. Having a great food experience in 2017 has sold other people to ty Amtrak. But in 2919 and 2021 meh.
> 
> CEOs make the decisions but the ultimate source of funding Amtraks operation in the taxpayer and railroad traveler.
> 
> To sum it up: community traditional dining and include Coach passengers.


How many Coach cars did your train have?


----------



## Rambling Robert

I was out of Boston and dont know. I waited only five minute for my stuff. I sat down to eat amongst those in an enormous line which moved slowly. No one commented on my choice. Raman noodles and pizza. [Amsterdam 7:45PM]. Amtrak has converted me to drink Sprite - taste okay warm - haha.


----------



## Mailliw

me_little_me said:


> They will claim that is what and how millennials like to eat. But we all know millennials want flex meals at any time of the day or night.


That's we not true we! We actually want to eat organic avocado toast washed down with fair trade oatmilk lattes!


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Mean-spirited but funny


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Millennials: You milked the social contract for all it was worth and left it in ruins.
Boomers: Oh yeah, well you enjoy avocado on bread with unindentured coffee!
Gen-X: Can you please take it outside so we can enjoy our alt-rock CD's in peace?


----------



## daybeers

Mailliw said:


> That's we not true we! We actually want to eat organic avocado toast washed down with fair trade oatmilk lattes!


"fair trade" while avocados are the farthest from fair trade you can get


----------



## crescent-zephyr

daybeers said:


> "fair trade" while avocados are the farthest from fair trade you can get



???


----------



## Tlcooper93

The “fair trade” agreement is a tragic misnomer.


----------



## Oaxacajo

crescent-zephyr said:


> ???


What do you mean? It is possible to buy fair trade avocados.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Oaxacajo said:


> What do you mean? It is possible to buy fair trade avocados.



I’m not sure I understand the original statement I quoted, or your question. 

Are avocados unfairly traded?


----------



## Tlcooper93

Here is a great review of dining on the Southwest Chief.
Forgive me if this video has been posted somewhere else.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Tlcooper93 said:


> Here is a great review of dining on the Southwest Chief.
> Forgive me if this video has been posted somewhere else.




I have to say the overall presentation of the meals, not to mention the appearance of the desserts, looks far better than what was offered prior to the suspension of traditional dining. If/when upgraded tablewear is introduced, that will certainly elevate the experience even more.


----------



## Rambling Robert

The food review was way to long and a bit too cutesy for me. This is typical for this YouTube content couple.

Voice over with a graphic of the menu, then highlight what then tasted - maybe nutrition - done.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Rambling Robert said:


> The food review was way to long and a bit too cutesy for me. This is typical for this YouTube content couple.
> 
> Voice over with a graphic of the menu, then highlight what then tasted - maybe nutrition - done.



I did not mind the extra information, so we will disagree there.



PaTrainFan said:


> I have to say the overall presentation of the meals, not to mention the appearance of the desserts, looks far better than what was offered prior to the suspension of traditional dining. If/when upgraded tablewear is introduced, that will certainly elevate the experience even more.



Agreed! I'm so excited to try it! I hope I can plan a Superliner trip soon!


----------



## Brian Battuello

I can't believe how excited we all are over something that never should happened in the first place. But I'll take it. Send some love to us east coast types!


----------



## Dustyroad

Tlcooper93 said:


> Here is a great review of dining on the Southwest Chief.
> Forgive me if this video has been posted somewhere else.



Great review. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## JayPea

Brian Battuello said:


> I can't believe how excited we all are over something that never should happened in the first place. But I'll take it. Send some love to us east coast types!


True, but I think there were so many people who thought flex dining was going to become a permanent thing so everyone is overjoyed it didn't happen. And I'm hoping the East Coast folks get a semblance of regular dining back in the not-too-distant future. I live here in the Great Pacific Northwest and haven't ridden an Amtrak train in the east since before the Eastern trains went to the flex stuff. Should they reinstate some form of regular dining I may have to entertain the idea of taking Amtrak in the east again.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rambling Robert said:


> The food review was way to long and a bit too cutesy for me. This is typical for this YouTube content couple.
> 
> Voice over with a graphic of the menu, then highlight what then tasted - maybe nutrition - done.



Do you have a link to your travel vlog? Would love to see how it’s done


----------



## Rambling Robert

On a recent SWC I sat next to a very intelligent young woman who road Amtrak in the northeast as a young child. She remembers the people she and her mom were pared with.and how wonderful to have dinner on the train.

The chicken fricassee I had in 2017 on the LSL was so good I would like Amtrak’s recipe.

Does/has Amtrak offer a recipe book? I’m mainly interested in Chicago, NOLA and NYC.


----------



## Rambling Robert

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do you have a link to your travel vlog? Would love to see how it’s done



Many many times the producer had asked me to tighten a four minute piece to three. IMO if YouTube has three minutes they couldn’t dump all the ads on a 20 minute YT content.

My thousand or so edited, (with graphics) over 20 years - of everything that happened locally and what the chamber of commerce programmed. Sometimes if an event ran all weekend I was forced to keep it tight for the report I did. Sometimes not easy.

I turned down jobs with CNN and the food network. mentor founded the food channel.

YouTube content providers, to reap the benefits,, have been creating longer and longer amateur pieces. I’m tired of it.


----------



## daybeers

Rambling Robert said:


> Many many times the producer had asked me to tighten a four minute piece to three. IMO if YouTube has three minutes they couldn’t dump all the ads on a 20 minute YT content.
> 
> My thousand or so edited, (with graphics) over 20 years - of everything that happened locally and what the chamber of commerce programmed. Sometimes if an event ran all weekend I was forced to keep it tight for the report I did. Sometimes not easy.
> 
> I turned down jobs with CNN and the food network. mentor founded the food channel.
> 
> YouTube content providers, to reap the benefits,, have been creating longer and longer amateur pieces. I’m tired of it.


If you're tired of it then...don't watch it? I find it funny you took the time to critique some amateur travel channel. No idea why you're comparing it to your apparent career in television graphics and bragging about your connections. So what if you think the food review was too long, it's their channel, no need to rain on their parade.

Also, YouTube sucks as a platform for creators. The algorithm fluctuates wildly and you can't really make much money at all anymore unless you're in the millions of views. But nobody leaves because who uses vimeo? It's just google being google.


----------



## Tlcooper93

daybeers said:


> If you're tired of it then...don't watch it? I find it funny you took the time to critique some amateur travel channel. No idea why you're comparing it to your apparent career in television graphics and bragging about your connections. So what if you think the food review was too long, it's their channel, no need to rain on their parade.
> 
> Also, YouTube sucks as a platform for creators. The algorithm fluctuates wildly and you can't really make much money at all anymore unless you're in the millions of views. But nobody leaves because who uses vimeo? It's just google being google.



I have to say I agree with this.
I’m not sure they're in it for producing top level professional content.

I come across amateurs playing music all the time. It’s not my job to let everyone know they aren’t professional... They love it, so I’m happy for them.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Rambling Robert said:


> Many many times the producer had asked me to tighten a four minute piece to three. IMO if YouTube has three minutes they couldn’t dump all the ads on a 20 minute YT content.
> 
> My thousand or so edited, (with graphics) over 20 years - of everything that happened locally and what the chamber of commerce programmed. Sometimes if an event ran all weekend I was forced to keep it tight for the report I did. Sometimes not easy.
> 
> I turned down jobs with CNN and the food network. mentor founded the food channel.
> 
> YouTube content providers, to reap the benefits,, have been creating longer and longer amateur pieces. I’m tired of it.



flexing?

Moreover this was one of our first looks at traditional dining. Who cares what the video looks like.


----------



## toddinde

Tlcooper93 said:


> Here is a great review of dining on the Southwest Chief.
> Forgive me if this video has been posted somewhere else.



That’s a great review. Sounds like Amtrak is really stepping up their game!


----------



## toddinde

Tlcooper93 said:


> I have to say I agree with this.
> I’m not sure they're in it for producing top level professional content.
> 
> I come across amateurs playing music all the time. It’s not my job to let everyone know it isn’t professional... They love it, so I’m happy for them.


Right! The idea of You Tube is to be for regular people. I loved the video. It’s not competing the Food Network.


----------



## Oaxacajo

toddinde said:


> Right! The idea of You Tube is to be for regular people. I loved the video. It’s not competing the Food Network.


The video is also not negative and sarcastic. It was refreshing to watch this.


----------



## Barb Stout

Tlcooper93 said:


> I have to say I agree with this.
> I’m not sure they're in it for producing top level professional content.
> I come across amateurs playing music all the time. It’s not my job to let everyone know they aren’t professional... They love it, so I’m happy for them.


Whew, thanks, dude!


----------



## Rambling Robert

Below is a cut and paste of all menus currently on western and the auto trains from Amtrak’s website.

SAMPLE MENUS);
Get a taste of traditional dining selections by sampling each route menu (effective June 23, 2021):

As you can see the western trains have links to the same menu. The auto train menu is unique:

Auto Train Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...tes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-011420.pdf

California Zephyr Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



Coast Starlight Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf

Empire Builder Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



Southwest Chief Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf

Sunset Limited Menu
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



Texas Eagle Menu*
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf


----------



## lordsigma

The auto train menu is not up to date. For some reason they don’t tend to keep the AT menus up to date on the website.


----------



## Palmland

Rambling Robert said:


> Below is a cut and paste of all menus currently on western and the auto trains from Amtrak’s website.



Great to see, maybe Amtrak is worth traveling again. But of course I have to find something to complain about- still no ice cream! Is the 3 course menu a first? I don’t recall seeing appetizers in the past. Is the free alcoholic drink one of those listed. If so that’s a step up from Barefoot wine and Maker’s Mark is excellent. My wife’s comment: It makes you hungry looking at it!

It is strange that A-T menu is not updated but presumably it’s the same.


----------



## lordsigma

Palmland said:


> Great to see, maybe Amtrak is worth traveling again. But of course I have to find something to complain about- still no ice cream! Is the 3 course menu a first? I don’t recall seeing appetizers in the past. Is the free alcoholic drink one of those listed. If so that’s a step up from Barefoot wine and Maker’s Mark is excellent. My wife’s comment: It makes you hungry looking at it!
> 
> It is strange that A-T menu is not updated but presumably it’s the same.


It’s similar - but the current steak on board is not prepared as described and there is currently a bbq pork shank entree not shown there are currently 5 dinner choices not just 4 - I think they may have also changed the fish to something else too I believe the other entrees are the same. The auto train seems to get a menu tweak about once a year or so. I want to say auto train still has ice cream and is the only train that has it. I will say the last time I rode auto train the food was the best of all the trips I’ve taken.


----------



## lordsigma

Here is the current (as of April) auto train menu. I’m guessing it’s still current as it appears it was refreshed in April in the lower right hand corner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> Is the 3 course menu a first? I don’t recall seeing appetizers in the past.



A few years ago there were appetizers on the menu but they were extra charge for sleeping car passengers and on most trains I traveled on the dining car didn’t actually have them stocked.


----------



## Nleprohn

Rambling Robert said:


> Below is a cut and paste of all menus currently on western and the auto trains from Amtrak’s website.
> 
> SAMPLE MENUS);
> Get a taste of traditional dining selections by sampling each route menu (effective June 23, 2021):
> 
> As you can see the western trains have links to the same menu. The auto train menu is unique:
> 
> Auto Train Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...tes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-011420.pdf
> 
> California Zephyr Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Coast Starlight Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> Empire Builder Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Southwest Chief Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> Sunset Limited Menu
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Eagle Menu*
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf


Lovely!!! Thank you


----------



## Asher

Rambling Robert said:


> The food review was way to long and a bit too cutesy for me. This is typical for this YouTube content couple.
> 
> Voice over with a graphic of the menu, then highlight what then tasted - maybe nutrition - done.



That little red dot on the bottom of a you tube video is for self editing.


----------



## lordsigma

So just for clarification the way the “first drink is on us” works now in traditional dining (at least how it did on the Chief) is you get a complementary alcoholic beverage at dinner and only dinner. The plus over flex dining is if you are going end to end on a two night train this means 1 complementary beverage at BOTH dinners - the drawback is dinner ONLY - it is NOT an option to use your complementary beverage at lunch.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> So just for clarification the way the “first drink is on us” works now in traditional dining (at least how it did on the Chief) is you get a complementary alcoholic beverage at dinner and only dinner. The plus over flex dining is if you are going end to end on a two night train this means 1 complementary beverage at BOTH dinners - the drawback is dinner ONLY - it is NOT an option to use your complementary beverage at lunch.


I don’t mind that! Good thing to be implemented


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Cal said:


> I don’t mind that! Good thing to be implemented


and so much easier to keep track of.


----------



## Rambling Robert

As a Coach passenger it’s kind of limited to what you can get delivered to the train. Someone mentioned success was the KFC. I wanted to get a 4 course steak delivered while in Kansas City (with app/salad and dessert). I assume I can bring a non-alcoholic red (with glass) to pair it with. Prolly dine in the observation car.

But I tried and we arrived in KC at 10:15 and I called several place and they closed at 10PM. I was hoping to emulate the dining car experience as a coach passenger. But it’s great that Coach access to the dining car will again happen - based on availability.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Doctors investigate rare COVID breakthrough cases infecting vaccinated Californians


As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID.




abc7news.com





How safe is the dining-car without social distancing? Now vaccinated people are coming down with Covid. 

"As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID."


----------



## Rambling Robert

Ferroequinologist said:


> Doctors investigate rare COVID breakthrough cases infecting vaccinated Californians
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7news.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How safe is the dining-car without social distancing? Now vaccinated people are coming down with Covid.
> 
> "As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID."



overall -79 deaths — that’s a very small percentage of 22 million vaccinated - 10,000 plus new Covid cases is 5% - in the bounds of 5–10% of the vaccines efficacy. 79 should be zero but it to seems to be in the efficacy of the VAX to me.

perhaps Amtrak could suggest a method to have SOME food and drink with mask partially on:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ferroequinologist said:


> How safe is the dining-car without social distancing? Now vaccinated people are coming down with Covid.


You worry more than any person I've ever encountered before. If I die after vaccination it was simply my time to go. I did my part and it wasn't enough oh well.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> You worry more than any person I've ever encountered before. If I die after vaccination it was simply my time to go. I did my part and it wasn't enough oh well.



I think there is reason to be concerned about the Delta variant - lots of unknowns still.


----------



## joelkfla

Rambling Robert said:


> overall -79 deaths — that’s a very small percentage of 22 million vaccinated - 10,000 plus new Covid cases is 5% - in the bounds of 5–10% of the vaccines efficacy. 79 should be zero but it to seems to be in the efficacy of the VAX to me.
> 
> perhaps Amtrak could suggest a method to have SOME food and drink with mask partially on:



I don't think I'm coordinated enough to do this. I'd probably end up jamming food into the mask, and sticking the straw in my eye.


----------



## neroden

Ferroequinologist said:


> Doctors investigate rare COVID breakthrough cases infecting vaccinated Californians
> 
> 
> As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abc7news.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How safe is the dining-car without social distancing? Now vaccinated people are coming down with Covid.


*Sigh* It's not safe enough for those with weakened immune systems, or the elderly, unfortunately. However, everyone has the right to get their meal delivered to their seat or room. (This was established to help people with mobility issues.) And eating in your roomette is pretty darn safe.



> "As the Delta variant takes hold, some of the first COVID-19 cases among the vaccinated population are being detected. In California, 74 people who were vaccinated died from COVID."


----------



## ohiorails

I think if anyone is scared to eat in diner, thats fine. Eat in your room. Or just stay home.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

ohiorails said:


> I think if anyone is scared to eat in diner, thats fine. Eat in your room. Or just stay home.



Everyone cannot stay home all the time. The article points out that there are still risks. That's the point.


----------



## hlcteacher

ok, people had to be taught the wash their hands, and not how to eat...y'all crack me up (loved the video)


----------



## Rambling Robert

Someday prolly sooner than later - in an eastern or western LH dining car - that includes a mix of passenger classes - will be sharing pandemic stories and enjoying great food and drink ... without a mask.


----------



## Manny T

Absolutely loved the "eating and drinking with your mask on" video! Very educational.



joelkfla said:


> I don't think I'm coordinated enough to do this. I'd probably end up jamming food into the mask, and sticking the straw in my eye.



Too true. And add to that the motion of the train. As I was watching the gentleman sit placidly in his stationary kitchen and eat and drink with his mask on, I tried to imagine how this would work on a train moving forward and side to side at the same time. Yes, forks in the eye and straws in someone else's face are to be expected.


----------



## niemi24s

Manny T said:


> Yes, forks in the eye and straws in someone else's face are to be expected.


If so, you'd no doubt expect the same even _without_ a mask.


----------



## jis

The numbers of "breakthrough" infections in the lower 48 upto July 6 is really quite small. According to the CDC. It is small even if there is a factor of 10 undercount which itself is unlikely:

Total vaccinated: 157 Million
Hospitalization: 4,909 (0.003%)
Death: 988 (0.0006%)

1,355 of the 4,909 Hospitalizations reported as symptomatic or not related to COVID-19
255 of 988 fatal cases reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19

Source: COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC


----------



## lordsigma

What was the standard dining car crew complement on western trains prior to Covid? Was it LSA, 2 SA, chef, and FSS?


----------



## cassie225

I was never offered complimentary alcoholic beverage


----------



## Bob Dylan

cassie225 said:


> I was never offered complimentary alcoholic beverage


You have to ask unless you have a good LSA and SCA.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

cassie225 said:


> I was never offered complimentary alcoholic beverage


Simply point to the place on the menu that says... "First one's on us!"


----------



## cassie225

Guess I’m used to the SCA I have had before offering things. Lol


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> But the same Graham Claytor also ran the Southern Crescent only thrice a week between Atlanta and New Orleans. Be very careful what you wish for from the genie that appears after you rub the bottle!


Yes the Southern Crescent was tri-weekly between Atlanta and New Orleans but it was tri-weekly with class. I rode it a number of times in the 1970s between DC and Birmingham. It had a dome between New Orleans and Atlanta. The Southern on board employees were very welcoming and took great pride in their train. It was a pleasure to ride their trains and I sometimes went well out of my way to do so.

That is not to say that the Southern was perfect by any means. I was appalled once by the condition of the rest room at the Greenville, S.C. station. I wrote to the Southern about this (as I recall, passengers were provided with a form whereby they could write a complaint) but sadly never received a reply.


----------



## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> Simply point to the place on the menu that says... "First one's on us!"


I am always disappointed by those restaurants where the dessert is included with your meal but the waiter fails to remind you of that when it is time for dessert (and when the waiter has taken away the menus).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> Yes the Southern Crescent was tri-weekly between Atlanta and New Orleans but it was tri-weekly with class. I rode it a number of times in the 1970s between DC and Birmingham. It had a dome between New Orleans and Atlanta. The Southern on board employees were very welcoming and took great pride in their train. It was a pleasure to ride their trains and I sometimes went well out of my way to do so.
> 
> That is not to say that the Southern was perfect by any means. I was appalled once by the condition of the rest room at the Greenville, S.C. station. I wrote to the Southern about this (as I recall, passengers were provided with a form whereby they could write a complaint) but sadly never received a reply.


Aaah yes... it was a different era. I remember catching the Milwaukee Road Mail Express out of Milwaukee at 2am to connect with the GN to Duluth and my college. No matter how bad the service was... there was a feeling of corporate pride... in the fresh crisp pillows handed out [complimentary on that train' and the pride that showed... even though those were the waining days of privatized rail. Say what you want... but gosh... I so miss those good old days! Couldn't find the right exact accurate photo... but it sure does stir those memories on the late 60's...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> I am always disappointed by those restaurants where the dessert is included with your meal but the waiter fails to remind you of that when it is time for dessert (and when the waiter has taken away the menus).


And you have a right to request that dessert... and a menu for dessert selection. At my old age I have no tolerance for dismal service and the expectation of an 'automated and expected' tip... supposedly regardless of service rendered.


----------



## bms

Rasputin said:


> Yes the Southern Crescent was tri-weekly between Atlanta and New Orleans but it was tri-weekly with class. I rode it a number of times in the 1970s between DC and Birmingham. It had a dome between New Orleans and Atlanta. The Southern on board employees were very welcoming and took great pride in their train. It was a pleasure to ride their trains and I sometimes went well out of my way to do so.
> 
> That is not to say that the Southern was perfect by any means. I was appalled once by the condition of the rest room at the Greenville, S.C. station. I wrote to the Southern about this (as I recall, passengers were provided with a form whereby they could write a complaint) but sadly never received a reply.



What was the Dining Car like? Did they serve any traditional Southern specialties at the time you rode it?


----------



## Bob Dylan

bms said:


> What was the Dining Car like? Did they serve any traditional Southern specialties at the time you rode it?


I personally liked their Breakfasts with "Virginia" Ham, Grits and Real Toast or Biscuits.to go with the Eggs.( their Railroad French Toast was OK, but not as good as some of the other Class Is) 

Their Dinner Menu was all good, especially their Southern style Meals like Pork Chops, Catfish and some of the Cajun Classics.

The only Train I rode on that I thought had better food than the Southern Crescent was the Super Chief, which I only got to ride once as a Kid.


----------



## bms

Bob Dylan said:


> I personally liked their Breakfasts with "Virginia" Ham, Grits and Real Toast or Biscuits.to go with the Eggs.( their Railroad French Toast was OK, but not as good as some of the other Class Is)
> 
> Their Dinner Menu was all good, especially their Southern style Meals like Pork Chops, Catfish and some of the Cajun Classics.
> 
> The only Train I rode on that I thought had better food than the Southern Crescent was the Super Chief, which I only got to ride once as a Kid.



That breakfast sounds great. The best breakfast I've had on a train was the Railroad French Toast on the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Railspike said:


> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.
> 
> 
> In this Pandemic age, tasty ready-to-eat microwavable entrees are readily available from various sources (meals by mail, grocery stores, and restaurants, etc.). There is no excuse for serving terrible tasting food on Amtrak. Unless of course, that's the goal. They have to know the food they are serving is terrible based on reviews. Is it because of the cost to Amtrak? Wouldn't this be an opportune time to try different recipes or contract an outside supplier?
> 
> I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible.
> 
> 
> With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?


Your message speaks loudly because it is a reflection of what we've been talking about on this forum for a long time... your comments reflect what everyone else feels about the failure for Amtrak to present adequate 'reasonable' food services... while at the same time asking for higher and higher fares. The failure of past management is being addressed by more thoughtful and considerate leaders. It's as obvious as the sun rising in the east that things have got to change in the face of customer disapproval and resistance!


----------



## J-P

Thinking about DAL-ELP this weekend and wondering what the service is like now overall? I'll have at least a roomette but wasn't sure what's going on with dining and beverage service now?

If I go, I'll be hoping to cross the Pecos River high bridge in daylight.

Thanks.


----------



## jis

J-P said:


> Thinking about DAL-ELP this weekend and wondering what the service is like now overall? I'll have at least a roomette but wasn't sure what's going on with dining and beverage service now?
> 
> If I go, I'll be hoping to cross the Pecos River high bridge in daylight.
> 
> Thanks.


You will have Flex Dining between Dallas and San Antonio and Traditional Full Dining between San Antonio and El Paso. Which effectively means you will get Flex Lunch and Dinner, and traditional Breakfast and Lunch between San Antonio and El Paso if things are running on time. So no Traditional meal on the way to El Paso.

If you are coming back the same way then you will have Traditional Full Dinner between El Paso and San Antonio and then Flex Breakfast and Lunch between San Antonio and Dallas. Again of course if things are more or less on time.


----------



## J-P

jis said:


> You will have Flex Dining between Dallas and San Antonio...



Thanks for the quick response. Might give it a go one-way to ELP and then non-rev back to Dallas after binging on TexMex in ELP.


----------



## Bob Dylan

J-P said:


> Thinking about DAL-ELP this weekend and wondering what the service is like now overall? I'll have at least a roomette but wasn't sure what's going on with dining and beverage service now?
> 
> If I go, I'll be hoping to cross the Pecos River high bridge in daylight.
> 
> Thanks.


From Dallas to San Antonio, the Eaglevwill only have 4 Cars, a Sleeper,a CCC and 2 Coaches.

No Sightseer Lounge, No Transdorm and No Baggage Car.

As jis said, you'll be served Flex Meals by the One LSA, who is doing Double Duty in the Diner and the Cafe, so they have to Alternate Hours when they serve Sleeping Car Passengers, and run the Cafe in the other end of the CCC, which is the "Crew Lounge",so you're not allowed to sit there but have to go to your Seat or Room to eat and drink your Cafe items.

Depending on the LSA, you May or May not be allowed to eat your Flex Meals in the Diner.
If you have to eat in your Room, your SCA will deliver your order in a Bag.

Most of these Trains are running Full, it's really not much fun right now on the Texas Eagle who has had its Wings Clipped!


----------



## Cal

I was on Empire Service 234 from Poughkeepsie to NYP this morning, and when we went to the cafe for something as we hadn’t had breakfast it was closed. Why don’t they operate the cafe car on earlier trains?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I was on Empire Service 234 from Poughkeepsie to NYP this morning, and when we went to the cafe for something as we hadn’t had breakfast it was closed. Why don’t they operate the cafe car on earlier trains?


Albany - NY trains do not have food service. NYSDOT has been trying to restore it, and it might happen in the next year or two. Meanwhile only West of Albany service has food service, as do Adirondack and Ethan Allen when they are running. Albany terminators and originators do not.


----------



## Chatter163

I was


jis said:


> Albany - NY trains do not have food service. NYSDOT has been trying to restore it, and it might happen in the next year or two. Meanwhile only West of Albany service has food service, as do Adirondack and Ethan Allen when they are running. Albany terminators and originators do not.


I was on 281 last month from New York to Utica, and certainly got lunch from the cafe car, and that was prior to stopping in Albany.


----------



## cocojacoby

On the LSL you could argue that it makes more sense to run the diner to Boston since you do have additional dining periods (lunch westbound/dinner eastbound) on the Boston leg. You could still keep the cafe' open on the New York section which now has no food available at all between Albany and NYP.

The crew and food supply logistics make it more complicated of course.


----------



## OBS

Chatter163 said:


> I was
> 
> I was on 281 last month from New York to Utica, and certainly got lunch from the cafe car, and that was prior to stopping in Albany.


Jis point is that trains whose whole trip is just Alb-NYP have no foodservice.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Albany - NY trains do not have food service. NYSDOT has been trying to restore it, and it might happen in the next year or two. Meanwhile only West of Albany service has food service, as do Adirondack and Ethan Allen when they are running. Albany terminators and originators do not.


Okay, thank you.


----------



## jis

Chatter163 said:


> I was
> 
> I was on 281 last month from New York to Utica, and certainly got lunch from the cafe car, and that was prior to stopping in Albany.


I guess I was not clear... Trains that travel west of (and in general beyond) Albany have Cafe service New York to wherever they are going. Trains that are going only upto Albany do not have Cafe service. This has been the case ever since the Commissary in Albany was closed during the Boardman era AFAIR.

So what you got was not something that contradicts what I said


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> This has been the case ever since the Commissary in Albany was closed during the Boardman era AFAIR.


I think it was the guy before Boardman, IIRC. Kummant? Crosbie?


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> This has been the case ever since the Commissary in Albany was closed during the Boardman era AFAIR.


They can’t stock it in NYP and make it to Albany and back? The Surfliner makes it to SLO and back and SAN and back without restocking.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> They can’t stock it in NYP and make it to Albany and back? The Surfliner makes it to SLO and back and SAN and back without restocking.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Infamous Subway Expieriment on these Trains!

A total Cluster Flub for sure!

But as most of us know, there's no real reason the Cafe Cars can't be Stocked,Open and serving between NYP and ALB.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> I think it was the guy before Boardman, IIRC. Kummant? Crosbie?


Yeah. It was sometime in 2005-06, so it predates Boardman and Crosbie. I suspect it was Hughes or Kummant.


Cal said:


> They can’t stock it in NYP and make it to Albany and back? The Surfliner makes it to SLO and back and SAN and back without restocking.


Sure they can. Leaving aside the additional cost of staff for the moment, the food needs be stored in refrigerators while the consists are taken out of service for servicing. Remember that Albany is the primary maintenance facility for the rolling stock used in Empire Service. The equipment is truly shut down there unlike in the case of beyond Albany service where equipment is parked at the turning point but remains on with power and all that. That is a the reason a minimal refrigerated storage for food is needed there. 

Fortunately the storage equipment was saved by some diligent staff, and is available for recommissioning apparently should Amtrak wish to do so.

NYSDOT has been trying to negotiate a service rate for this additional service and Amtrak is being its usual anal self apparently. Afterall they have to live upto their reputation of the most reluctant America's Railroad who have to always be pushed kicking and screaming into doing what they are chartered to do.


----------



## Rasputin

Isn't reopening the commissary at Albany one of the long standing goals of the Empire State Rail Passengers Assoc. so that food service can return between Albany and New York City? So far it has been a pretty elusive goal as I understand.


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> Isn't reopening the commissary at Albany one of the long standing goals of the Empire State Rail Passengers Assoc. so that food service can return between Albany and New York City? So far it has been a pretty elusive goal as I understand.


Yes. It is. And apparently they have finally managed to get NYSDOT sort of on board, though the extent of the on boarding is not clear to me.


----------



## Rasputin

bms said:


> What was the Dining Car like? Did they serve any traditional Southern specialties at the time you rode it?


I remember that the breakfasts were great and that all meals that I had were delicious but my last trip on the Southern Crescent was in 1975 - 46 years ago and I cannot recall any particular entrees except for a delicious chicken dinner which comes to mind. I believe I have one or two menus from the train and perhaps that will jog my memory. 

But what I can recall is the wonderful spirit of the on board crew both in the dining car and in the coaches and sleepers. The employees on the Southern Crescent seemed to enjoy their work and took great pride in their work. I remember how enjoyable it was going to the dining car in the morning. I would pass by the door to the kitchen and I would usually exchange greetings and hold a brief conversation with the chef and the other workers in the kitchen. One of those fine people was Louis Price who had been featured in the Southern's ads for the Southern Crescent and who was tragically killed in the overspeed derailment of the Southern Crescent at Elma, Virginia on December 3, 1978 (caused by gross negligence, probably criminal negligence, on the part of the engine crew). Louis Price's obituary appeared in the New York Times.


----------



## OBS

Rasputin said:


> Isn't reopening the commissary at Albany one of the long standing goals of the Empire State Rail Passengers Assoc. so that food service can return between Albany and New York City? So far it has been a pretty elusive goal as I understand.


They had Foodservice between NYP and ALB long before the Albany Commissary was ever established. It should not be a preventative factor in reestablishing Foodservice....


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> They had Foodservice between NYP and ALB long before the Albany Commissary was ever established. It should not be a preventative factor in reestablishing Foodservice....


But whether we like it or not, apparently at present it is.


----------



## lordsigma

Nice trains article on the return of traditional dining - offers some insight about the preparation of some items from a chef on the SWC. The omelette I had aboard the SWC did definitely seem made to order - I’m glad I was right. In my opinion the new made to order omlettes over the previous menu and from my previous experiences on board - I’d say the French toast too but that was back very briefly for a January menu refresh right before Covid. Though the presentation of that is spruced up 









Review: Amtrak reinvents ‘traditional’ dining car meals - Trains


First of two parts ABOARD THE SOUTHWEST CHIEF — A month after Amtrak revamped dining-car menus on the five long-distance trains that serve the West Coast — replacing pre-packaged meals in a bowl with freshly-prepared breakfasts, lunches, and dinners — it’s clear the company is aiming for a...




www.trains.com


----------



## joelkfla

Is it possible that Flex Dining was a vast conspiracy spawned by staff within the bowels of Amtrak to swing the pendulum so far towards awful that public outcry would leave management no choice but to swing the other way?


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> Is it possible that Flex Dining was a vast conspiracy spawned by staff within the bowels of Amtrak to swing the pendulum so far towards awful that public outcry would leave management no choice but to swing the other way?


I don’t think the plan was ever to keep flex dining on the two nighters indefinitely. Going to flex on the eagle probably was.


----------



## daybeers

Why isn't there even a baggage car on the TE?!?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

daybeers said:


> Why isn't there even a baggage car on the TE?!?


They're probably using a bag-coach car


----------



## daybeers

AmtrakBlue said:


> They're probably using a bag-coach car


Ahh yes, forgot about those. I don't travel on Superliners often.


----------



## tonys96

daybeers said:


> Why isn't there even a baggage car on the TE?!?


Because it seems that the Eagle has become a second class train, like the CONO, or worse. 
Truly sad situation for my home train, which serves many folks.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tonys96 said:


> Because it seems that the Eagle has become a second class train, like the CONO, or worse.
> Truly sad situation for my home train, which serves many folks.


My Eagle Route friends told me there's not enough checked baggage on this Route for a Bag Car, so a Coach Bag is used.( the Austin Agents told me they used to do a good Package Express Bussines which was stopped for some unknown reason!!)

At least the CONO has a Sightseer Lounge( Unstaffed, so there's no Reason the Eagle can't do this) even if the Food Service in the CCC is the same sorry clusterflub!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> My Eagle Route friends told me there's not enough checked baggage on this Route for a Bag Car, so a Coach Bag is used.( the Austin Agents told me they used to do a good Package Express Bussines which was stopped for some unknown reason!!)
> 
> At least the CONO has a Sightseer Lounge( Unstaffed, so there's no Reason the Eagle can't do this) even if the Food Service in the CCC is the same sorry clusterflub!


So what is the 'estimated conclusion' as to why it was taken off the TE? Is there a chance that refurbishments make this temporary? It makes absolutely no sense to remove the SSL from a two day run. Got two trips coming up on that route.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> So what is the 'estimated conclusion' as to why it was taken off the TE? Is there a chance that refurbishments make this temporary? It makes absolutely no sense to remove the SSL from a two day run. Got two trips coming up on that route.


Chances: Slim and None, and Slim just left town!

The Eagles are running FULL on most Days, charging Highest Buckets for Rooms( I saw a couple of days where the Coach Fare CHI-LAX was $285!!!)and only running 4 Car consists between St. Louis and San Antonio ( 1 Sleeping Car, 1 CCC ( with 1 LSA for the Cafe and the Diner, (4 used to staff it), and still slinging Flex Meals, and 2 Coaches, even on #421/#422 Days ( 3 times a week).

None of the Amtrak OBS,( Chicago based) Conductors or Agents I know expect the Sightseer Lounge to ever come back, Ditto for the Traditional Dining! )


----------



## Sidney

Bob Dylan said:


> Chances: Slim and None, and Slim just left town!
> 
> The Eagles are running FULL on most Days, charging Highest Buckets for Rooms( I saw a couple of days where the Coach Fare CHI-LAX was $285!!!)and only running 4 Car consists between St. Louis and San Antonio ( 1 Sleeping Car, 1 CCC ( with 1 LSA for the Cafe and the Diner, (4 used to staff it), and still slinging Flex Meals, and 2 Coaches, even on #421/#422 Days ( 3 times a week).
> 
> None of the Amtrak OBS,( Chicago based) Conductors or Agents I know expect the Sightseer Lounge to ever come back, Ditto for the Traditional Dining! )


And unless I have to go to Dallas or Fort Worth I will never ride the Eagle again. Is there any logical explanation why the sightseer car was taken off? Of course there isn't


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Chances: Slim and None, and Slim just left town!
> 
> The Eagles are running FULL on most Days, charging Highest Buckets for Rooms( I saw a couple of days where the Coach Fare CHI-LAX was $285!!!)and only running 4 Car consists between St. Louis and San Antonio ( 1 Sleeping Car, 1 CCC ( with 1 LSA for the Cafe and the Diner, (4 used to staff it), and still slinging Flex Meals, and 2 Coaches, even on #421/#422 Days ( 3 times a week).
> 
> None of the Amtrak OBS,( Chicago based) Conductors or Agents I know expect the Sightseer Lounge to ever come back, Ditto for the Traditional Dining! )


Thank you Jim... my new attitude is 'self sufficiency and the view out the window.' But it certainly won't be the SSL windows to look up at the St. Louis Arch! My tactic is to order the kosher meals for that segment... mostly the salmon option... and bring some healthy nibbles... nuts, sturdy cheese, and of course the allowable moonshine. I do have a run on the Sunset Limited connecting at NOL for NYP. Am keeping my expectations low and will concentrate on the that window view... the haunting tune of the whistle, and all things RR. A good attitude can make the best of things even better... yup... indeed I have reoriented myself with low expectations with the the goal of 'getting lost with the view and enjoying the ride!' TE here I come!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> And unless I have to go to Dallas or Fort Worth I will never ride the Eagle again. Is there any logical explanation why the sightseer car was taken off? Of course there isn't


We are all in a state of mourning RE TE cutbacks. I was able the get the H room on two TE runs and on the Sunset Limited for another. Low bucket for 2 and mid bucket for 1. I am taking it as it comes... just get a good agent to find things for you and if they find a low bucket be prepared to snag it!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Infamous Subway Expieriment on these Trains!
> 
> A total Cluster Flub for sure!
> 
> But as most of us know, there's no real reason the Cafe Cars can't be Stocked,Open and serving between NYP and ALB.


Money... and an agreement between the provider of it (NY SDOT) and consumer of it (Amtrak). There is not an agreement so far. Money is way more real reason for most of these things than people like to give it credit for.

BTW, regarding TE, it has a very checkered history at Amtrak. It was not part of the original system. The chosen Chicago - Texas train was the Texas Chief, which of course has disappeared since then after becoming the Lone Star for a while. The so called Inter-American back then was introduced later and somehow stumbled along running three times a week. It has not always enjoyed the amount of support that it did for a while in the recent past. It was teetering on the brink when Kay Bailey Hutchinson resurrected it into a daily train with 4 days a week extension to LAX. Before that it was a thrice a week train teetering on the brink for years. It probably needs another boost again. Its influential support and advocacy group also seems to have gone dormant of late. Hard to tell how things will turn out.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Money... and an agreement between the provider of it (NY SDOT) and consumer of it (Amtrak). There is not an agreement so far. Money is way more real reason for most of these things than people like to give it credit for.
> 
> BTW, regarding TE, it has a very checkered history at Amtrak. It was not part of the original system. The chosen Chicago - Texas train was the Texas Chief, which of course has disappeared since then after becoming the Lone Star for a while. The so called Inter-American back then was introduced later and somehow stumbled along running three times a week. It has not always enjoyed the amount of support that it did for a while in the recent past. It was teetering on the brink when Kay Bailey Hutchinson resurrected it into a daily train with 4 days a week extension to LAX. Before that it was a thrice a week train teetering on the brink for years. It probably needs another boost again. Its influential support and advocacy group also seems to have gone dormant of late. Hard to tell how things will turn out.


True jis! And Texas Politicians are mostly basically Worthless when it comes to Amtrak.

I don't know what happened with TEMPO, they used to really be involved with the Eagle when it was a Proud Train, but now it's the Orphan of the Amtrak LD Syste.!


----------



## PaTrainFan

Bob Dylan said:


> True jis! And Texas Politicians are mostly basically Worthless when it comes to Amtrak.



Remember Kay Bailey Hutchinson? Former Republican senator? One of Amtrak's biggest boosters back in the day. Times sure have changed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

PaTrainFan said:


> Remember Kay Bailey Hutchinson? Former Republican senator? One of Amtrak's biggest boosters back in the day. Times sure have changed.


Yep, only Republican I ever Voted for!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Wish I could have at least been on the real Texas Eagle's last ride.It was a sad day.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Wish I could have at least been on the real Texas Eagle's last ride.It was a sad day.
> 
> View attachment 23723


My first ride in a Dome was on the MOPAC Texas Eagle from San Marcos,TX to St Louis( the Eagle Terminated there, not Chiacago)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Wish I could have at least been on the real Texas Eagle's last ride.It was a sad day.
> 
> View attachment 23723


On the very last day of the Golden Era, I went to the big station in St. Louis and witnessed the departure of the Wabash Cannonball... the station was 'cavernous' and empty... and in poor repair... yet that train stood proud and glimmering on the tracks outside the door. As it pulled away I felt very sad... it turned around the corner... and was gone...then I went home to my apartment and opened up the some brochures... I had and started dreaming of flying away on one of the rainbow of colors Braniff 747's to some distant place.

That was in 1971 when I was young and filled with dreams. The dreams are still there. But all those trains and planes which I dreamt about have faded into the sunset.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> On the very last day of the Golden Era, I went to the big station in St. Louis and witnessed the departure of the Wabash Cannonball... the station was 'cavernous' and empty... and in poor repair... yet that train stood proud and glimmering on the tracks outside the door. As it pulled away I felt very sad... it turned around the corner... and was gone...then I went home to my apartment and opened up the some brochures... I had and started dreaming of flying away on one of the rainbow of colors Braniff 747's to some distant place.
> 
> That was in 1971 when I was young and filled with dreams. The dreams are still there. But all those trains and planes which I dreamt about have faded into the sunset.
> View attachment 23731
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 23733


Loved Union Station when it was busier then Chicago's Stations back in the day!

Still remember that backing movement up the Hill into the Train Shed, thru the Busy Concourse and into that Fabulous Headhouse, now a Hilton Hotel IINM??


----------



## 20th Century Rider

They did an amazing job of renovating the station... but sadly moved all the passenger train operations to another area nearby. There are still some private cars on display at the station... lots of restaurants, and the Hilton Hotel. It is now one of the top attractions to visit in St. Louis. I remained in St. Louis until 1999 when I retired from teaching and moved to the Oregon Coast. Some pics below of then... and now...






St. Louis Union Station | St. Louis, MO







www.stlouisunionstation.com


----------



## tonys96

I was in StL station a few years back. They have fixed it really nice. I wish trains were still there.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I stayed at the Union Station Hilton in 2019 on my way to the Gathering. I loved it. After breakfast in the Harvey House restaurant, I spent my day going to the Arch and taking a river boat ride then walked back to the station and hung out there - including taking a ride on the gondola ferris wheel and playing a round of mini golf, before heading to the Amtrak station to continue my way to the Gathering.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Me too! Me too! I have always been a 'dreamer' of far away destinations... and patronized Amtrak a lot when living in St. Louis; even when the Amtrak was just a rail shed a few blocks away... now it is expanded and modernized... but nothing compared to what once was one of the busiest stations in the country.

BTW... when teaching in St. Louis, I would take my classes to visit the prehistoric station when we covered St. Louis and Missouri history. That station is indeed magical and always fascinates!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> I stayed at the Union Station Hilton in 2019 on my way to the Gathering. I loved it. After breakfast in the Harvey House restaurant, I spent my day going to the Arch and taking a river boat ride then walked back to the station and hung out there - including taking a ride on the gondola ferris wheel and playing a round of mini golf, before heading to the Amtrak station to continue my way to the Gathering.


Attended grad school at Washington University in St. Louis in the '70... then got a teaching job and remained for another 29 years before retiring and coming out west. St. Louis is truly historic... has a great art museum... and of course... Forest Park was where the The Louisiana Purchase Exposition was held in 1904... also known as the World's Fare. The park itself mimics Central Park in NYC with the beautiful statues and bridges... lagoons... etc.

I do feel fortunate to have spent my younger years in this great town!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Attended grad school at Washington University in St. Louis in the '70... then got a teaching job and remained for another 29 years before retiring and coming out west. St. Louis is truly historic... has a great art museum... and of course... Forest Park was where the The Louisiana Purchase Exposition was held in 1904... also known as the World's Fare. The park itself mimics Central Park in NYC with the beautiful statues and bridges... lagoons... etc.
> 
> I do feel fortunate to have spent my younger years in this great town!
> 
> View attachment 23746


Oops! My bad! That I was a teacher for so many years and with 3 college degrees... was always a poor at spelling! Didn't 'fare' well in the spelling above... it was the World's Fair!


----------



## Cal

Anyone have any questions about traditional dining? Boarding the Chief in an hour ish.


----------



## Rasputin

Cal said:


> Anyone have any questions about traditional dining? Boarding the Chief in an hour ish.


The unanswered question is: Are grits available for all breakfast entrees or are they only available with the continental breakfast entree (as a strict reading of the menu indicates)?


----------



## Cal

Rasputin said:


> The unanswered question is: Are grits available for all breakfast entrees or are they only available with the continental breakfast entree (as a strict reading of the menu indicates)?


If I remember I’ll see


----------



## Rasputin

Cal said:


> If I remember I’ll see


Thanks, we know what the menu says. We want to know what is done in reality.


----------



## OBS

Rasputin said:


> Thanks, we know what the menu says. We want to know what is done in reality.


Of course that may vary from crew to crew as well....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

OBS said:


> Of course that may vary from crew to crew as well....


The ability of a manager to control goods and services under their direction is many times a 'power grab' to heighten their sense of dominance and importance... without regard for those being impacted. 'The Managerial Grid' graduate level textbook for aspiring leaders refers to this behavior as 'Empire Builders.' The Amtrak Dining Car is a perfect scenerio for this to happen, and frequently does. The I just listed this in another strand... it's just such a wild play on words!

Have frequently experienced 'Empire Builders' on the Empire Builder dining car... and the very many AU'ers who frequent the EB can probably relate! The dining car steward is in complete control... 'only 1 decaf packet per passenger per meal!' Or... no, you can't have an extra side salad... only one.' 'No guac with your burger... it's only for the enchiladas!' Depends on who's in charge. It's all about that power trip and authority... on your Amtrak trip!


----------



## zephyr17

This is a wholly subjective impression, but Amtrak seems to have more than its share of little tin gods.

I've had seen diner LSAs, lounge LSAs, SCAs as well as conductors exhibit the behavior. While I'd estimate it is only about 10% (with the LSAs rate of godhood being a bit higher), that still is high.

Yet another argument in favor of onboard management and accountability.


----------



## Cal

Dining car ready for dinner on the Chief.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Is seeing actually believing? Are those flowers by the windows? Sure puts one in the mood for a very fine meal!


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> Dining car ready for dinner on the Chief.


Looks like they've replaced those ridiculous bushes and towering arrangements in earlier photos with some flowers more decorous.


----------



## Cal

The flowers are real too, they are on all trains with traditional dining. Read my full review in my trip report thread. It was AMAZING.


----------



## Cal

NYP-FUL Cardinal/Southwest Chief


Which nearby pizza place? Giordanos




www.amtraktrains.com





Here’s the link


----------



## lordsigma

Word on the street that Acela first is going from flexible dining style meals and snack boxes back to traditional meals soon which will reverse another pandemic cut. Next thing that needs to happen is sprucing up the cafe cars to at least a pre pandemic level - they remain rather spartan even on the western trains that have traditional dining back for sleepers passengers.


----------



## neroden

The pre-Richard-Anderson cafe cars were apparently profitable, as well, which made the mindless quality and selection cuts on them particularly egregious. Needs to be reversed ASAP. And that doesn't even require hiring new staff or training them.


----------



## fillyjonk

Came back (last night;/today) on the TE. Still (of course) the "flex" meals. We had to eat in our compartments (breakfast they said "you can dine at your own risk" in the CCC) because of Delta. (I opted to eat in my room.

v. reduced dinner menu:




No pasta and meatballs! Which is the best of the meals I've had on this. (I had to eat the shrimp at lunch coming up, do not recommend AT ALL). Last night I got the cod. It wasn't bad. Not gourmet but way better than that shrimp thing. I mainly just wanted a dish without some soupy mystery sauce on it. (The pasta and meatballs has minimal sauce and you know what it is). 




I just....I don't know. For me the main attraction of the sleeper is the privacy/safety as a woman traveling alone, and right now, being able to sleep without a mask on and being away from other humans, but....these meals are really not good. Not sleeping-car good. 

the milk I got at breakfast was bordering on spoiled even though the sell by date was the 8th. 

Everything goes to crap eventually, I guess, I've seen it in so many things. Or maybe this is what being middle-aged is like? Everything seems worse than it is?


----------



## zephyr17

fillyjonk said:


> Everything goes to crap eventually, I guess, I've seen it in so many things. Or maybe this is what being middle-aged is like? Everything seems worse than it is?


I don't know. Some of my first meals on rails were by Fred Harvey on Santa Fe's Super Chief. It is a very long fall from there to Flex Dining, and I don't think I am imagining the quality difference.

I'd say packaged sandwiches from SP's Automat car on the Daylight were about on par with Flex, though. Although the sandwiches may have been just a smidge better.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fillyjonk said:


> Came back (last night;/today) on the TE. Still (of course) the "flex" meals. We had to eat in our compartments (breakfast they said "you can dine at your own risk" in the CCC) because of Delta. (I opted to eat in my room.
> 
> v. reduced dinner menu:
> View attachment 23854
> 
> 
> 
> No pasta and meatballs! Which is the best of the meals I've had on this. (I had to eat the shrimp at lunch coming up, do not recommend AT ALL). Last night I got the cod. It wasn't bad. Not gourmet but way better than that shrimp thing. I mainly just wanted a dish without some soupy mystery sauce on it. (The pasta and meatballs has minimal sauce and you know what it is).
> 
> View attachment 23855
> 
> 
> I just....I don't know. For me the main attraction of the sleeper is the privacy/safety as a woman traveling alone, and right now, being able to sleep without a mask on and being away from other humans, but....these meals are really not good. Not sleeping-car good.
> 
> the milk I got at breakfast was bordering on spoiled even though the sell by date was the 8th.
> 
> Everything goes to crap eventually, I guess, I've seen it in so many things. Or maybe this is what being middle-aged is like? Everything seems worse than it is?


Nope... it's not your middle age [I'm old aged]; it's that the flex meals are really really crappy... and the sour milk problem is because of the catering service. Let's all hope this improves! 

BTW... I'll be on the TE in October and am lowering my expectations. May try ordering the kosher meals and bring along some snacks to as well.


----------



## me_little_me

fillyjonk said:


> the milk I got at breakfast was bordering on spoiled even though the sell by date was the 8th.


I'd suggest that when that happens to anybody, they bring it to the attention of the SA in the diner then file a written (snail mail or email) complaint to Amtrak. Then it is on record because spoiled food is a safety hazard.


----------



## fillyjonk

me_little_me said:


> I'd suggest that when that happens to anybody, they bring it to the attention of the SA in the diner then file a written (snail mail or email) complaint to Amtrak. Then it is on record because spoiled food is a safety hazard.


If I get the time on Monday I'll try calling customer relations and see what happens. There were very few people working this train - basically one person doing ALL the food services as far as I could tell, and she announced to coach that she had to close service for them when she was bringing meals to the sleeper. 

I dunno, I think part of it is just "everything in the US is in shambles right now because of the pandemic" but I will let Amtrak know that maybe the cooler on that train wasn't good. The yogurt I got was OK but yogurt is basically ALREADY spoiled milk, so....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fillyjonk said:


> If I get the time on Monday I'll try calling customer relations and see what happens. There were very few people working this train - basically one person doing ALL the food services as far as I could tell, and she announced to coach that she had to close service for them when she was bringing meals to the sleeper.
> 
> I dunno, I think part of it is just "everything in the US is in shambles right now because of the pandemic" but I will let Amtrak know that maybe the cooler on that train wasn't good. The yogurt I got was OK but yogurt is basically ALREADY spoiled milk, so....


This problem is compounded by lack of adequate staffing... definitely let customer service know what you think!


----------



## willem

fillyjonk said:


> [...] maybe the cooler on that train wasn't good. [...]


While that's definitely a possibility, I would think that someone (the supplier, Amtrak station personnel, Amtrak train personnel) leaving the milk out of refrigeration for too long is also a definite possibility. This isn't to say it's excused or that you shouldn't let Amtrak know.


----------



## OBS

willem said:


> While that's definitely a possibility, I would think that someone (the supplier, Amtrak station personnel, Amtrak train personnel) leaving the milk out of refrigeration for too long is also a definite possibility. This isn't to say it's excused or that you shouldn't let Amtrak know.


Most likely reason....I saw it too many times.....


----------



## ScottR

The poor Texas Eagle. That stubby little 4 to 5 car consist from San Antonio to Chicago is IMO the worst overnight in the system. Tired cars, tired and uniformly cranky OBS, we are out of this and that, this bathroom is closed, coffee maker is broken, no sightseeing car…I know…if you don’t Like it fly.

I just recall the old days…ie TWO years ago, where this was a great western train with all the amenities. And it goes through my hometown (Longview, TX) so I can go from Monterey in California on the Starlight then to San Antonio on the GOOD part of the Texas Eagle/Sunset then have to take this ugly little orphan train to my hometown and on to Chicago to complete the loop.

amtrak has messed this one up


----------



## cassie225

I don’t know, can the Crescent be too far behind the Texas Eagle. I expected Crescent not to be like my first trip on it but was so disappointed at my trip in July. Until traditional dining is back and I hear good reports, I probably won’t ride again. So sad, even though the upholstery was bad my first ride in bedroom, I felt like a queen and that was also when I rode in coach


----------



## 20th Century Rider

ScottR said:


> The poor Texas Eagle. That stubby little 4 to 5 car consist from San Antonio to Chicago is IMO the worst overnight in the system. Tired cars, tired and uniformly cranky OBS, we are out of this and that, this bathroom is closed, coffee maker is broken, no sightseeing car…I know…if you don’t Like it fly.
> 
> I just recall the old days…ie TWO years ago, where this was a great western train with all the amenities. And it goes through my hometown (Longview, TX) so I can go from Monterey in California on the Starlight then to San Antonio on the GOOD part of the Texas Eagle/Sunset then have to take this ugly little orphan train to my hometown and on to Chicago to complete the loop.
> 
> amtrak has messed this one up


Does anyone really know why they are degrading the TE and so discouraging travel... while everywhere else service is being improved and upgraded???


----------



## me_little_me

cassie225 said:


> I don’t know, can the Crescent be too far behind the Texas Eagle. I expected Crescent not to be like my first trip on it but was so disappointed at my trip in July. Until traditional dining is back and I hear good reports, I probably won’t ride again. So sad, even though the upholstery was bad my first ride in bedroom, I felt like a queen and that was also when I rode in coach


Especially since Amtrak sold out their customers by agreeing to the allowed NS-caused delays. The northbound times at Atlanta and my closest station, Greenville, both of which I have used, are now both worthless. And I notice delays are still continuing.

After Amtrak's longtime fighting for the STB to help them stop Class 1 passenger delays, if I were on the STB, I'd throw the Amtrak reps out of the room if they came back complaining about another railroad or another NS-delayed route.

Amtrak, you betrayed us with the change in times of the Crescent and the serious downgrading of the Eagle. You haven't changed. You still are trying to dump long distance and I expect, with the food improvements, really big price increases in the future.


----------



## Nick Farr

Has anyone seen Traditional Dining come back to the Western Trains?

I'm guessing that this menu dated June 21 is not actually happening.

A bit of a shame, since we're traveling in a few weeks as a family on the CZ almost the entire length of the trip.


----------



## MillennialTraveler

Nick Farr said:


> Has anyone seen Traditional Dining come back to the Western Trains?
> 
> I'm guessing that this menu dated June 21 is not actually happening.
> 
> A bit of a shame, since we're traveling in a few weeks as a family on the CZ almost the entire length of the trip.


Traditional Dining returned for most western routes (Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited) at the end of June/Early July.

Unless something *just* changed that I missed, that menu you linked to should be accurate.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Has anyone seen Traditional Dining come back to the Western Trains?
> 
> I'm guessing that this menu dated June 21 is not actually happening.
> 
> A bit of a shame, since we're traveling in a few weeks as a family on the CZ almost the entire length of the trip.



Yes it’s been seen and well documented on this site. That menu is the current menu for the western trains.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes it’s been seen and well documented on this site. That menu is the current menu for the western trains.



When I started searching, I just saw rumblings that they went back to Flex Dining because of Delta. I'm hoping that was just the TE.


----------



## jis

Nick Farr said:


> When I started searching, I just saw rumblings that they went back to Flex Dining because of Delta. I'm hoping that was just the TE.


TE was not slated to get traditional dining, and it didn’t.


----------



## Nick Farr

jis said:


> TE was not slated to get traditional dining, and it didn’t.



I'm guessing now is not when I should ask if my CZ's SSL will be replaced by a CCC.


----------



## zephyr17

Nick Farr said:


> I'm guessing now is not when I should ask if my CZ's SSL will be replaced by a CCC.


Not unless the SSL is bad ordered at close to the last minute. Then they could swap in a Diner/Lounge (the actual car type of a "CCC") as a replacement.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I'm guessing now is not when I should ask if my CZ's SSL will be replaced by a CCC.



Same chances as always. Equipment can always be substituted last minute.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Same chances as always. Equipment can always be substituted last minute.



It feels like there's increased chances of that happening, as the cars themselves age and the available replacement inventory dwindles.

Most of the Superliner fleet is on its second/third overhaul already, isn't it?


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> Has anyone seen Traditional Dining come back to the Western Trains?
> 
> I'm guessing that this menu dated June 21 is not actually happening.
> 
> A bit of a shame, since we're traveling in a few weeks as a family on the CZ almost the entire length of the trip.


Yes, there have been a handful of reports from various members and YouTube videos. A lot of discussion has happened about it as well. I had it and the food was excellent.


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> Most of the Superliner fleet is on its second/third overhaul already, isn't it?


ADAIK superliner IIs never had a proper overhaul and superliner Is had one major one in the early 2010s.


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> Yes, there have been a handful of reports from various members and YouTube videos. A lot of discussion has happened about it as well. I had it and the food was excellent.



Of course, since posting this, I managed to find some of these things. What I'm afraid of is them pulling it as the Delta variant increases.

That being said, am I imagining things or does it seem better than it was before Flex dining?


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> Of course, since posting this, I managed to find some of these things. What I'm afraid of is them pulling it as the Delta variant increases.
> 
> That being said, am I imagining things or does it seem better than it was before Flex dining?


Practically all reports (including mine) have said it’s better than pre-pandemic.

And I highly doubt Amtrak would revert to flexible dining. Huge waste and it would outrage so many.


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> ADAIK superliner IIs never had a proper overhaul and superliner Is had one major one in the early 2010s.



I've never found a Pullman nameplate and ever so occasionally do I find an original Bombardier plate on a Superliner when I travel. It's almost always a Beech Grove shop plate.

What is a "proper" overhaul compared to what they've been doing? Did I also miss plans to replace that fleet?


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> ADAIK superliner IIs never had a proper overhaul and superliner Is had one major one in the early 2010s.



The line plans talk about interior refreshes, but I'm guessing they'll wait for the Viewliner order to wrap up before even trying with the Superliners.


----------



## jis

Nick Farr said:


> The line plans talk about interior refreshes, but I'm guessing they'll wait for the Viewliner order to wrap up before even trying with the Superliners.


They are already working on the Superliner Refresh Program.


----------



## Nick Farr

jis said:


> They6 are already working on the Superliner Refresh Program.



But that's just the interiors, which doesn't address the average age of the cars (35 years) along with their degrading mechanical reliability. (Vacuum pumps for sewage, HVAC, etc.)

It looks like they aren't entertaining a replacement order until 2025 at the earliest.


----------



## jis

Nick Farr said:


> But that's just the interiors, which doesn't address the average age of the cars (35 years) along with their degrading mechanical reliability. (Vacuum pumps for sewage, HVAC, etc.)
> 
> It looks like they aren't entertaining a replacement order until 2025 at the earliest.


I can only tell you what is funded and is being done. Of course much more could be done, but currently they are not part of any funded program. Incidentally Viewliner Is are also getting just a refresh for now, whether we like it or not.

Yeah look for 2030 and beyond for actual Superliner replacements to arrive. It will indeed be after Amfleet replacement is completed. Viewliners of any vintage do not appear in that equation at present.


----------



## Nick Farr

jis said:


> I can only tell you what is funded and is being done. Of course much more could be done, but current;y they are not part of any funded program. Incidentally Viewliner Is are also getting just a refresh for now, whether we like it or not.



At least the Viewliner IIs are still rolling off the line new, the newest Superliner is older than Google.

What I'm getting at is that we're likely to face a lot of equipment-related problems, car substitutions, increased sleeping car prices, etc. as these cars keep breaking down.

If a dining car goes out of service...back to Flex dining for that trip, right?


----------



## zephyr17

If they are going to run the current fleet of Superliners until at least 2030, they need to do a deep refurbishment of all mechanical systems, including HVAC and plumbing, on the whole fleet. Not just the soft product refresh which is what Amtrak just announced.

I don't think people will fully appreciate the nice new sheets and pillows in an uncomfortably hot room that reeks of sewage.


----------



## jis

Nick Farr said:


> At least the Viewliner IIs are still rolling off the line new, the newest Superliner is older than Google.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that we're likely to face a lot of equipment-related problems, car substitutions, increased sleeping car prices, etc. as these cars keep breaking down.
> 
> If a dining car goes out of service...back to Flex dining for that trip, right?


Only two or three VL IIs to go, but what good does rolling off the line do if they are immediately parked never to be seen in service?

All I can say is that this is nothing new. We have been there back in '79-'80 and then in the mid-'90s when several Superliner trains disappeared in order to keep the remaining ones running daily.

Yes things will get worse before they get better. Hopefully the Budget Reconciliation Bill will provide enough money to speed along the replacement or fleet augmentation program significantly.


----------



## Nick Farr

zephyr17 said:


> If they are going to run the current fleet of Superliners until at least 2030, they need to do a deep refurbishment of all mechanical systems, including HVAC and plumbing, on the whole fleet.



Yes, this, exactly.


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> I've never found a Pullman nameplate and ever so occasionally do I find an original Bombardier plate on a Superliner when I travel. It's almost always a Beech Grove shop plate.


Yes because the superliner IIs were made by bombardier. I’ve seen a lot of bombardier plates.

Superliner refreshes are already underway I believe


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> At least the Viewliner IIs are still rolling off the line new, the newest Superliner is older than Google.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that we're likely to face a lot of equipment-related problems, car substitutions, increased sleeping car prices, etc. as these cars keep breaking down.
> 
> If a dining car goes out of service...back to Flex dining for that trip, right?


No, they don’t just stock flexible dining meals on the trains. It would be probably a smaller portion of the normal traditional menu or take out.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> If a dining car goes out of service...back to Flex dining for that trip, right?



It depends if a replacement (diner or ccc) is available. The CCC cars were specifically designed so they could operate as either a diner or a cafe / lounge, or both. 

If no replacement was available it would be cafe car only. On a longer trip it would be take out as well.


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrak is also actively considering refurbishment instead of replacement for superliners - and the only cars they are currently looking at as far as fleet renewal are the Amfleet IIs and the Superliner Is as the Superliner IIs have more life in them. A big life extension heavy rebuild of the Superliner Is is a possible path forward they may take. On the other hand the Amfleet IIs will almost definitely be replaced. Currently it’s being studied.


----------



## lordsigma

Nick Farr said:


> Yes, this, exactly.


You’ll get traditional dining meals - communal dining you likely may not so if you really want to dine at a table in the diner pay attention for reservation opportunities. Word is is they are dropping communal dining again due to delta variant. No word of going back to flex dining in the west. What you may have been hearing was really that they are dropping communal.


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> No, they don’t just stock flexible dining meals on the trains. It would be probably a smaller portion of the normal traditional menu or take out.



I had almost all my flex dining meals as take out...or did you mean actual take out served on the train?

I meant, if the car is unavailable going out of Chicago--or has some kind of service difficulty before leaving and that can't be easily remedied without major repairs to the car.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I had almost all my flex dining meals as take out...or did you mean actual take out served on the train?
> 
> I meant, if the car is unavailable going out of Chicago--or has some kind of service difficulty before leaving and that can't be easily remedied without major repairs to the car.



They wouldn’t be able to serve flex meals either then.


----------



## Skimmy

Nick Farr said:


> Has anyone seen Traditional Dining come back to the Western Trains?
> 
> I'm guessing that this menu dated June 21 is not actually happening.
> 
> A bit of a shame, since we're traveling in a few weeks as a family on the CZ almost the entire length of the trip.


It was in July when I took the zephyr and coast starlight (Klamath falls to Portland)


----------



## Ziv

I do not have a clue as to why Amtrak is not using all of the new VLII's right now. This would be a great time to be re'furbing (or at least deep cleaning) the older rolling stock. And though the VLII's are slow to arrive and slower to be used by Amtrak, this would be a great time to buy more of them in order to get 2 or 3 additional sets of cars, sleepers, coaches and diners, so that if there is an opportunity and funding to do a full re-furb of the oldest SuperLiners, Amtrak could substitute new VLII's for the SL'ers on the Cap Limited to free up the cars to allow time to work on them. The current/pending/potential funding increase for Amtrak may not happen again for a long time. If Amtrak wants new rolling stock, this year or next would be the best time to fund it. 
Make hay while the sun shines.



jis said:


> Only two or three VL IIs to go, but what good does rolling off the line do if they are immediately parked never to be seen in service?
> 
> All I can say is that this is nothing new. We have been there back in '79-'80 and then in the mid-'90s when a of Superliner trains disappeared in order to keep the remaining ones run daily.
> 
> Yes things will get worse before they get better. Hopefully the Budget Reconciliation Bill will provide enough money to speed along the replacement or fleet augmentation program significantly.


----------



## fillyjonk

Cal said:


> Practically all reports (including mine) have said it’s better than pre-pandemic.
> 
> And I highly doubt Amtrak would revert to flexible dining. Huge waste and it would outrage so many.


I thought the plan was for the "short leg" of the Eagle (San Antonio to Chicago), it was just gonna be Flex forever.
Which sucks, because for the foreseeable future, it's the only Amtrak I will be taking (my mother lives in Illinois, and between work and the pandemic the only traveling I am doing is to see her).

Surely there are easily prepared/low-touch-required meals better than the mystery meat + random sauce with overcooked veggies that could be served? Even a well made cold sandwich would be better than that "shrimp in 'lobster' sauce" thng


----------



## Bob Dylan

fillyjonk said:


> I thought the plan was for the "short leg" of the Eagle (San Antonio to Chicago), it was just gonna be Flex forever.
> Which sucks, because for the foreseeable future, it's the only Amtrak I will be taking (my mother lives in Illinois, and between work and the pandemic the only traveling I am doing is to see her).
> 
> Surely there are easily prepared/low-touch-required meals better than the mystery meat + random sauce with overcooked veggies that could be served? Even a well made cold sandwich would be better than that "shrimp in 'lobster' sauce" thng


That " Short Leg" from SAS to CHI is 32+ Hours!


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> They wouldn’t be able to serve flex meals either then.



Do they need more than a freezer and a microwave to do Flex Meals?


----------



## Sidney

Bob Dylan said:


> That " Short Leg" from SAS to CHI is 32+ Hours!


No excuse not for the TE not to have a sightseer car and traditional dining. I would imagine that no Amtrak exec ever took a long distance overnight train.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> They wouldn’t be able to serve flex meals either then.


Why not? Most people cook food. And flex meals are not food.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Why not? Most people cook food. And flex meals are not food.



Flex meal service still requires a freezer, refrigerator and either a microwave or convection oven (I’ve heard they use both, not sure which is accurate). 

So a working dining car, café car, or CCC.


----------



## Leex

Hello all….

Newbie here. But something ‘jis’ said has me worried. When will the Texas Eagle get back traditional dining? Jis said “not slated”. Does that mean “not ever”?

I have Texas Eagle reservations for late September/early October (semi-annual trips from west coast to Albany and northern NYS). I swore off Amtrak after they went to TV dinners, but a particularly unhappy airline experience in June and the promise of better food has lured me back. What am I looking at?

thanks


----------



## OBS

Leex said:


> Hello all….
> 
> Newbie here. But something ‘jis’ said has me worried. When will the Texas Eagle get back traditional dining? Jis said “not slated”. Does that mean “not ever”?
> 
> I have Texas Eagle reservations for late September/early October (semi-annual trips from west coast to Albany and northern NYS). I swore off Amtrak after they went to TV dinners, but a particularly unhappy airline experience in June and the promise of better food has lured me back. What am I looking at?
> 
> thanks


It is highly unlikely traditional dining in any form will be back by then.....for the texas eagle or for the lakeshore limited...


----------



## Leex

OBS said:


> It is highly unlikely traditional dining in any form will be back by then.....for the texas eagle or for the lakeshore limited...


Thanks. Now looking at airline schedules.


----------



## lordsigma

Nick Farr said:


> Do they need more than a freezer and a microwave to do Flex Meals?


Lately they've been using ovens for flex meals.


----------



## lordsigma

Leex said:


> Hello all….
> 
> Newbie here. But something ‘jis’ said has me worried. When will the Texas Eagle get back traditional dining? Jis said “not slated”. Does that mean “not ever”?
> 
> I have Texas Eagle reservations for late September/early October (semi-annual trips from west coast to Albany and northern NYS). I swore off Amtrak after they went to TV dinners, but a particularly unhappy airline experience in June and the promise of better food has lured me back. What am I looking at?
> 
> thanks


It's traditional dining from LAX to San Antonio (on the combined Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle train) if you were going to do the Texas Eagle the whole way from the west coast. Another option is the Southwest Chief which is traditional dining all the way LAX - Chicago that would get you traditional dining almost the whole way except for the Lake Shore which is only a meal or two.


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> Yes because the superliner IIs were made by bombardier. I’ve seen a lot of bombardier plates.



Right, but the Superliner I cars were Pullman-Standard. I wonder what those nameplates even looked like


----------



## Leex

lordsigma said:


> It's traditional dining from LAX to San Antonio (on the combined Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle train) if you were going to do the Texas Eagle the whole way from the west coast. Another option is the Southwest Chief which is traditional dining all the way LAX - Chicago that would get you traditional dining almost the whole way except for the Lake Shore which is only a meal or two.


Thanks for the info. But I am in Tucson so it would require heading west to LAX so that doesn’t work.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> That " Short Leg" from SAS to CHI is 32+ Hours!


Hey there Jim and everyone else RE the TE... the agent told me that the TE now has traditional dining... so I did a sample res between SAS and CHI and sure enough is says traditional dining between those two city pairs in the booking info. Not getting my hopes up too high... I'm thinking that although is says that... it also says in a separate section that it's still flex. Oh well... we've discussed Amtrak management having no clue about what's going on...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Acela First Class menus are now posted. Looks good. 



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0821.pdf


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Hey there Jim and everyone else RE the TE... the agent told me that the TE now has traditional dining... so I did a sample res between SAS and CHI and sure enough is says traditional dining between those two city pairs in the booking info. Not getting my hopes up too high... I'm thinking that although is says that... it also says in a separate section that it's still flex. Oh well... we've discussed Amtrak management having no clue about what's going on...View attachment 23887
> View attachment 23888


Let's hope it's true, and that the Eagle gets its Sightseer Lounge back too!


----------



## lordsigma

Leex said:


> Thanks for the info. But I am in Tucson so it would require heading west to LAX so that doesn’t work.


Understood - just so you know you would have traditional dining the first day till San Antonio - flex dining after that. Not flex dining the entire way.


----------



## Bob Dylan

OBS said:


> It is highly unlikely traditional dining in any form will be back by then.....for the texas eagle or for the lakeshore limited...


This!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> This!


Yup... I know... in that 32 hours between SAS and CHI ya get no SSL; 2 flex cardboard breakfasts, 2 flex puddle lunches, and 1 flex puddle dinner. And the price that goes with it is really something to 'stew' about!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Leex said:


> Thanks for the info. But I am in Tucson so it would require heading west to LAX so that doesn’t work.


Could you bus or drive up to Flagstaff and take the Chief to Chicago?

20th Century Riders Post is interesting, most of us sure hope it becomes True ASAP, maybe you'll get lucky!


----------



## jpakala

Today (Aug 10) I saw the TE leaving St Louis for Chicago and as I recall there were only 4 cars behind the locomotive.


----------



## Cal

fillyjonk said:


> I thought the plan was for the "short leg" of the Eagle (San Antonio to Chicago), it was just gonna be Flex forever.


Yes, it is. But it never switched back to traditional so there would be no "reverting".


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Why not? Most people cook food. And flex meals are not food.


You got a list of flex meal insults ready to go? Seems like it! Not that I'm complaining, or disagreeing!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Why not? Most people cook food. And flex meals are not food.


That's right! Flex meals are not food! They are chemically induced highly processed 'food product' with enhancers, extenders, expanders, and other gross stuff... served as a puddle on a carcinogenic melted plastic plate... with no texture or flavor. 

If they fed this stuff to animals you can be sure animal activists would be up front and center protesting!


----------



## RRrich

When I started riding Amtrak each train had its own menu which changed daily. Riding Amtrak was enjoyable and meals were something to look forward to. That was a long time ago as was my last time on Amtrak. Do you think those two things are related???


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> Hey there Jim and everyone else RE the TE... the agent told me that the TE now has traditional dining... so I did a sample res between SAS and CHI and sure enough is says traditional dining between those two city pairs in the booking info. Not getting my hopes up too high... I'm thinking that although is says that... it also says in a separate section that it's still flex. Oh well... we've discussed Amtrak management having no clue about what's going on...


Another example of how the reservations agents are clueless about actual conditions in the field, and Amtrak's woeful state of IT. The Schedules tab shows traditional dining. On the booking tab under amenities it says flex dining and traditional dining between LA and San Antonio only. But the amenities on the booking tab also says it has a Sightseer Lounge.

Until there is a field report that traditional dining or a Sightseer has returned, I would assume no Sightseer and inedible meals on the Eagle. Unless it is a fare quote, I don't trust reservations agents to have accurate info about anything.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> Another example of how the reservations agents are clueless about actual conditions in the field, and Amtrak's woeful state of IT. The Schedules tab shows traditional dining. On the booking tab under amenities it says flex dining and traditional dining between LA and San Antonio only. But the amenities on the booking tab also says it has a Sightseer Lounge.
> 
> Until there is a field report that traditional dining or a Sightseer has returned, I would assume no Sightseer and inedible meals on the Eagle. Unless it is a fare quote, I don't trust reservations agents to have accurate info about anything.


You are absolutely correct. IT dysfunctionality on the Amtrak Site is an ongoing problem. Don't believe anything until you have experienced it... and when booking... take that provided 'info' with a grain of salt. If it's too good to be true... 

What most believe, and are experiencing on the TE between SAS and CHI... is bare bones service.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> You are absolutely correct. IT dysfunctionality on the Amtrak Site is an ongoing problem. Don't believe anything until you have experienced it... and when booking... take that provided 'info' with a grain of salt. If it's too good to be true...
> 
> What most believe, and are experiencing on the TE between SAS and CHI... is bare bones service.


Yep, riding on the Texas Eagle between SAS and CHI in Coach is like the Locals( aka "Milk Runs") in the Old Days, and booking a Sleeper is similar to riding in a SlumberCoach but @ Ultra High Prices without a Lounge and Crappy Food!


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> You got a list of flex meal insults ready to go? Seems like it! Not that I'm complaining, or disagreeing!


No! It's just some subjects (ala flex dining or a past unnamed president) that make jokes so easy.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> ... served as a puddle on a carcinogenic melted plastic plate... with no texture or flavor.


Actually, the "carcinogenic melted plastic plate" was the best part of the meal and definitely had more texture and flavor than what was inside. I dumped the flex stuff in the garbage and, with a little salt/pepper and getting a requested butter from the SA, I ate the plate.

So while I agree with the rest of your post, please don't insult the texture or flavor of the plate without first trying my recipe.


----------



## JayPea

I, on the other hand, didn't find the flex meals all that bad on my trips from last year. Certainly nowhere near as good as salmon and steak, and I'm most certainly looking forward to traditional dining when I go on my next trip in six weeks. But to me flex dining wasn't horrendous.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

RRrich said:


> When I started riding Amtrak each train had its own menu which changed daily. Riding Amtrak was enjoyable and meals were something to look forward to. That was a long time ago as was my last time on Amtrak. Do you think those two things are related???


Absolutely they are! 

What was once such a high quality fun experience... lifted by the wings of eagles into the heavens of a dreamy rail adventure... is now a 'Texas Eagle' with its wings clipped.


----------



## lordsigma

JayPea said:


> I, on the other hand, didn't find the flex meals all that bad on my trips from last year. Certainly nowhere near as good as salmon and steak, and I'm most certainly looking forward to traditional dining when I go on my next trip in six weeks. But to me flex dining wasn't horrendous.


I have to concur with this assessment. Flex dining isn't as good as salmon and steak but I can certainly handle it for a one night trip - not that I'd object if they made improvements but to me its not going to kill you either and I don't find it inedible.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I have to concur with this assessment. Flex dining isn't as good as salmon and steak but I can certainly handle it for a one night trip - not that I'd object if they made improvements but to me its not going to kill you either and I don't find it inedible.


Even though I joke about it, I agree.


----------



## fillyjonk

lordsigma said:


> I have to concur with this assessment. Flex dining isn't as good as salmon and steak but I can certainly handle it for a one night trip - not that I'd object if they made improvements but to me its not going to kill you either and I don't find it inedible.


True. It's more a disappointment than anything. I hope some day the TE leg I take will go back to "real" dining, but even if they don't....well I'm taking it to get between two places and if I were driving, I'd probably be eating Sonic or some other crummy thing on the way (even more now when the only 'restaurant food' I get is what I can either pick up or eat outside)


----------



## cassie225

Flex dining is crummy, especially when your first trip on Amtrak had you spoiled to what the food could be, then other trips on Amtrak, very good food, my hubbie wasn’t impressed but he would eat Chinese food out of a literal hole in the wall so his opinion doesn’t count. Lol Then I got a person from NO who was in the kitchen once and made grits like me, yummy,flex dining is awful, but maybe I will try to salt and pepper the plastic plate if I ride again and take a bite,can’t hurt lol


----------



## 20th Century Rider

cassie225 said:


> Flex dining is crummy, especially when your first trip on Amtrak had you spoiled to what the food could be, then other trips on Amtrak, very good food, my hubbie wasn’t impressed but he would eat Chinese food out of a literal hole in the wall so his opinion doesn’t count. Lol Then I got a person from NO who was in the kitchen once and made grits like me, yummy,flex dining is awful, but maybe I will try to salt and pepper the plastic plate if I ride again and take a bite,can’t hurt lol


Yes... and so bland, monotonous, and unsatisfying. 

Several AU'ers have posted comparisons between flex dining and prison food... the prison food is better.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

20th Century Rider said:


> Several AU'ers have posted comparisons between flex dining and prison food... the prison food is better.


I'm curious to know how they know the prison food is better.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm curious to know how they know the prison food is better.


There are blogs for just about everything.


----------



## Amtrak709

Just for something to do and mostly due to my recent dining experience on the Crescent ATN-NYP-ATN, I have been reading through all 111 pages of this discussion. Remind me: the "MICA RULE" refers to Congressman Mica and the food service of Amtrak being or becoming self-supporting--right? He (Mica) was defeated in 2016, right? Did not do any good, I guess, as food service has continue to deteriorate.


----------



## zephyr17

While Mica was defeated in 2016, the Mica Rule was not repealed until 2020. It remained the law despite his departure. Laws are funny that way.

Flex dining was introduced to Eastern trains at least partly in response to the Mica Rule, despite his absence from office at the time.

The return of a traditional dining on Western trains, in what appears to be an improved form, would have been difficult if not impossible had the Mica Rule not been repealed. RPA has reported Amtrak has plans to improve food service on Eastern LDs this fall or winter, which may be traditional dining with a more limited menu than the Western trains.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Yup! Yer' not alone on the Amtrak Flex Dining 'concept' 'created for millennials' [who don't like it either!]

John M. 2/11/2021 01:02:17 pm commented
"I had the braised beef selection twice on the Capitol Ltd late last July. It tasted adequate (though not comparable to traditional service), but left me with diariha for a couple of days. Perhaps it was it was a contaminated anomaly. I thought the breakfast selections were poor. I do not expect to use Amtrak east of the Mississippi until normal dining returns."

Paul A. 2/28/2021 05:35:25 pm
"wife and I traveled on the texas eagle, I can deal with delays, old equipment, rough track, but the food? without a doubt it was no better than budget gourmet's worst selection and I am being kind. the coast starlight lost the parlour car, now the dining car is gone, we would be better served it McDonalds delivered meals at station stops."

Gary D. 3/11/2021 09:18:05 pm
"If you want to kill off the long distance routes, just keep this so called “flexible” dining. I took the Texas Eagle from Tucson to Chicago last month and the food was pathetic. I have always enjoyed the food in the past but it was the WORST on my last trip. You can try to blame everything on COVID, but I know your real motivation Amtrak."









I tried Amtrak's new 'contemporary' dining car and it was immediately clear why so many people want to save the old one


Gone are the days of custom-cooked meals on some long-distance Amtrak routes. Now, it's airplane food — and people aren't happy.




www.businessinsider.com













What You Need To Know About Amtrak’s Flex Dining - TWK


Learn the basics of Amtrak's Flex Dining (or Contemporary Dining) on long-distance trains under 32 hours-distance,




travelswithkev.com


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> While Mica was defeated in 2016, the Mica Rule was not repealed until 2020. It remained the law despite his departure. Laws are funny that way.
> 
> Flex dining was introduced to Eastern trains at least partly in response to the Mica Rule, despite his absence from office at the time.
> 
> The return of a traditional dining on Western trains, in what appears to be an improved form, would have been difficult if not impossible had the Mica Rule not been repealed. RPA has reported Amtrak has plans to improve food service on Eastern LDs this fall or winter, which may be traditional dining with a more limited menu than the Western trains.


I've also heard that when talking with res agents. It just makes sense... and Amtrak management is well aware of the universal disdain for the flex dining concept. By rolling out a much nicer product on LD and Acela 1st the contrast becomes even more pronounced. Management knows that as well... even more reason to be optimistic for TE and East Coast service upgrades!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I do not dispute that flex meals are technically edible and will not kill you but being served precooked reheated casseroles on a fare that is more expensive than nearly any means of domestic travel outside supercar rentals and chartered jets is a terrible value IMO. I've previously stated that I would not have had such a negative reaction to flex meals if Amtrak had reduced sleeper fares commiserate with needing to have meals delivered along the way.



AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm curious to know how they know the prison food is better.


I want to see people who reference prison food actually eat some on camera with a straight face. I'm not even talking about the really disgusting punishment meals like nutriloaf but just regular prison fare. My guess is that their misguided rhetoric would be humbled into submission with sudden and profound clarity.



AMTRAK709 said:


> Remind me: the "MICA RULE" refers to Congressman Mica and the food service of Amtrak being or becoming self-supporting--right? He (Mica) was defeated in 2016, right? Did not do any good, I guess, as food service has continue to deteriorate.


Defeating Mica allowed changes and eventual repeal of his stupid rule. We are literally seeing the benefits today as traditional dining returns to some routes.


----------



## Amtrak709

Thanks to all for refreshing my memory on Congressman Mica. Although a long time rail fan my entire life of 74 years and 375,000 miles on the rails since 1965, I had lived in Congressman Mica's district in Florida since 1982 (even before Mica's time) until I moved back to Georgia in 1998--but never really realized his negative support for Amtrak until he was defeated in 2016. 
My comments were prompted by my first experience of flex dining on the Crescent in June 2021--a shock. Although I have, as you see, travelled a lot in the sleepers on the rails with Amtrak, I had not been on board--for various reasons-- since March, 2018. My experience on the Crescent with flex dining combined with Amtrak's outrageously high sleeping care fares made this not so good experience. Admittedly, this was literally the first week of the return to daily service. Maybe Mica's departure and a, hopefully, a return to near normal after COVID will renew my formerly unwavering faith in the rails.


----------



## me_little_me

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm curious to know how they know the prison food is better.


They can at least go to court to file complaints about the excessive sugar at breakfast especially if diabetic.

They can file complaints that the serving of only a few different meals combined for lunch and dinner for months on end is cruel and unusual punishment.

They are not forced to pay anything for their meals, much less outrageous prices for it.

There is at least a defined end to the suffering the endure with their food. Their ability to walk out at the end of their sentence and get a real meal is never delayed by long freights.

There is always an answer. There is no requirement it be truthful or fair - as Mr. Giuliani told the feds.


----------



## me_little_me

> cassie225 said:





> Flex dining is crummy, especially when your first trip on Amtrak had you spoiled to what the food could be, then other trips on Amtrak, very good food, my hubbie wasn’t impressed but he would eat Chinese food out of a literal hole in the wall so his opinion doesn’t count. Lol Then I got a person from NO who was in the kitchen once and made grits like me, yummy, flex dining is awful, but maybe I will try to salt and pepper the plastic plate if I ride again and take a bite,can’t hurt lol





20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... and so bland, monotonous, and unsatisfying.


And those are its good points!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak Dining
> 
> And those are its good points!


 ⚠


----------



## neroden

crescent-zephyr said:


> Acela First Class menus are now posted. Looks good.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0821.pdf


If ingredients lists were supplied (which, incomprehensibly, they still aren't), I would be perfectly happy with this on the Lake Shore Limited. Much better than the horrific "flex dining".


----------



## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> I do not dispute that flex meals are technically edible and will not kill you but being served precooked reheated casseroles on a fare that is more expensive than nearly any means of domestic travel outside supercar rentals and chartered jets is a terrible value IMO.


There is no question that Amtrak can do much better than Flex meals. Just look at what the airlines are able to do when they set their mind to it.

That said, the economics are often not quite what you make them out to be because an Amtrak sleeper fare (assuming one is traveling overnight) includes lodging. When you factor that in, especially with hotel rates in major eastern cities, often an Amtrak sleeper is comparable to coach on an airline, and perhaps cheaper. And in coach class you are not going to get a free meal.

For example, I am paying in the high $300s for a trip from New York to Chicago in a roomette on the Lake Shore Limited. This saves me a night in either New York or Chicago. I doubt that I could get a night in a decent downtown hotel plus coach airfare for much cheaper.

Also, Amtrak does not have the same economies that a restaurant enjoys. Amtrak has a limit to customer traffic (although a captive audience, to be sure). This is especially true with their single level fleet. Amtrak also pays much higher wages than restaurants do.

Perhaps the happy medium for eastern routes is to copy what VIA Rail does.


----------



## joelkfla

Exvalley said:


> Perhaps the happy medium for eastern routes is to copy what VIA Rail does.


Meals on the Canadian in normal times were far superior to anything on Amtrak. How is that a happy medium?


----------



## Exvalley

joelkfla said:


> Meals on the Canadian in normal times were far superior to anything on Amtrak. How is that a happy medium?



I was referring to the fact that VIA offers good meals that are pre-cooked.


----------



## Nick Farr

Exvalley said:


> I was referring to the fact that VIA offers good meals that are pre-cooked.



Flex dining reminds me of New Coke vs New Pepsi.

Honestly, if flex dining had been plated, came with a salad, warm bread and metal silverware rolled up in a cloth napkin, there wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

The didn't-even-bother-to-take-the-plastic-all-the-way-off level of service is what killed it.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The VIA entrees I had on the Ocean Were similar in quality to flex dining. The biggest improvements were a bowl of soup and slice of cake (similar to traditional dining on Amtrak today). And of course you actually had a waiter and real silverware. 

I’m not really sure if there would be any cost savings since the staffing in the dining car seemed the same as traditional dining on the Meteor (when it was offered) but not as good of an entree (imo).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Flex dining reminds me of New Coke vs New Pepsi.
> 
> Honestly, if flex dining had been plated, came with a salad, warm bread and metal silverware rolled up in a cloth napkin, there wouldn't have been as much of an issue.
> 
> The didn't-even-bother-to-take-the-plastic-all-the-way-off level of service is what killed it.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... 

On one of those rare times I was on Acela 1st class and meal service was on the decline, the waiter encouraged me to try a 'new option' which was that flex meal beef stuff with the polenta. It was beautifully plated with chinaware and metal cutlery; but the food itself still looked grey and mushy... as was the taste. 

Food quality speaks for itself.


----------



## cassie225

U can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I’m sorry


----------



## pennyk

chrsjrcj said:


> The VIA entrees I had on the Ocean Were similar in quality to flex dining.


I was not impressed with the premade meals on the Ocean. Because I am allergic to garlic and most of the meals contained garlic, I was very limited as to what I was able to eat (often only the vegetables and dessert).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

cassie225 said:


> U can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I’m sorry


Cool - never heard that one before! We aught to send it along to the 'flex chefs!'  ‼


----------



## mlanoue

I've never been on the Acela. How do they cook those meals? Is there a real kitchen, or is it also convection/microwave ovens?


----------



## priller

mlanoue said:


> I've never been on the Acela. How do they cook those meals? Is there a real kitchen, or is it also convection/microwave ovens?



Acela 1st is reheated, just like airline service.



Beef Short Ribs (not recent photo)


----------



## Triley

mlanoue said:


> I've never been on the Acela. How do they cook those meals? Is there a real kitchen, or is it also convection/microwave ovens?



They are meals that are made at and brought in from 3 airports along the corridor, in the same kitchens that make first class meals for airlines. They are then reheated onboard if necessary, typically using an oven. Almost everything in the galley of First Class on the Acela is a clone of an airline galley. Same refrigeration system and carts, storage cabinets, oven, etc.


----------



## jis

@Triley is it still Gate Gourmet? Or is it some other vendor?


----------



## Cal

Triley said:


> They are meals that are made at and brought in from 3 airports along the corridor, in the same kitchens that make first class meals for airlines. They are then reheated onboard if necessary, typically using an oven. Almost everything in the galley of First Class on the Acela is a clone of an airline galley. Same refrigeration system and carts, storage cabinets, oven, etc.


Didn't realize how closely they mirror airlines there. I wonder if they could (and if it would be viable) to someday establish a similar situation on the Surfline and Capitol Corridor.


----------



## lordsigma

While I hope to see some kind of sleeper meal improvements in the east - I'd like to see them finish reversing the pandemic cuts first. The cafe car menus remain quite spartan and have not had any pandemic-cut menu items restored including out west where they have brought back traditional dining for sleeping car passengers - they definitely could use some attention to give coach passengers a few more choices. I think this is where Amtrak should focus their attention next - then revisit flex dining in the east.


----------



## joelkfla

They've posted openings for OBS jobs in Miami. Hopefully, the graduates of that class will be the ones to enable enhanced dining on the Silvers. Anyone know how long the onboarding and training takes?

I don't think expanding the café menu requires any additional staffing, so that and the enhancement of Eastern dining should be able to proceed independently of each other.


----------



## Cal

joelkfla said:


> They've posted openings for OBS jobs in Miami. Hopefully, the graduates of that class will be the ones to enable enhanced dining on the Silvers. Anyone know how long the onboarding and training takes?


I doubt it, because I don't see any OBS positions open for Chicago, New York, or New Orleans. Although maybe I'm wrong as people could've been contacted privately. 

Training takes, I am guessing, no more than a few months


----------



## jruff001

Apologies if I missed it, but I haven't seen a mention of recent Auto Train meal service experiences.

I rode it last week and was disappointed that we were told upon check-in that we would be served in our room, period. I found out later from our SCA that you can apparently get a seat in the diner only if you check in very early because they are still doing social distancing, but everyone else (who seemed to be the vast majority) still have to be served in their rooms. So we were, on plastic / styrofoam. At least it wasn't Flex Meals but it was still disappointing.

Does anyone know why they are doing it this way only on the AT but not the other trains that don't have Flex Dining? It is hardly "traditional" dining car service.

And the continental "breakfast" was also disappointing - all cold bread & carbs (& yoghurt) grab-and-go in the lounge; nothing hot. (Although I think this is how it has been for a while pre-Covid on the AT due to the early arrival, but I hadn't ridden it in ten years so I am not sure.)

I have seen posts on here before saying how the AT seems to always get the best of the best and dining car services were not changed because of Covid, but that is not the case.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jruff001 said:


> Apologies if I missed it, but I haven't seen a mention of recent Auto Train meal service experiences.
> 
> I rode it last week and was disappointed that we were told upon check-in that we would be served in our room, period. I found out later from our SCA that you can apparently get a seat in the diner only if you check in very early because they are still doing social distancing, but everyone else (who seemed to be the vast majority) still have to be served in their rooms. So we were, on plastic / styrofoam. At least it wasn't Flex Meals but it was still disappointing.
> 
> Does anyone know why they are doing it this way only on the AT but not the other trains that don't have Flex Dining? It is hardly "traditional" dining car service.
> 
> And the continental "breakfast" was also disappointing - all cold bread & carbs (& yoghurt) grab-and-go in the lounge; nothing hot. (Although I think this is how it has been for a while pre-Covid on the AT due to the early arrival, but I hadn't ridden it in ten years so I am not sure.)
> 
> I have seen posts on here before saying how the AT seems to always get the best of the best and dining car services were not changed because of Covid, but that is not the case.


I've read recently that the Empire Builder is back to social distancing in the diner, so I suspect the other western trains are also doing limited seating.


----------



## fillyjonk

AmtrakBlue said:


> I've read recently that the Empire Builder is back to social distancing in the diner, so I suspect the other western trains are also doing limited seating.


FWIW, the trip on the Chicago to SAS Texas Eagle I took last week, they were STRONGLY discouraging eating in the diner. I do not think they permitted it at dinner, and at breakfast the word was "at your own risk" according to the (SOLE!) CCC attendant (who had to close down sales to coach passengers when it was time to prepare/deliver food to the sleepers)

Frankly at this point I'm hoping it will be OK to travel at Thanksgiving. I bought tickets but warned my mom and my brother's family that if this "wave" is worse then, I won't be traveling, DESPITE being vaccinated. I am probably being overly cautious but I have immune compromised friends here and have only me to rely on if I get sick....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fillyjonk said:


> FWIW, the trip on the Chicago to SAS Texas Eagle I took last week, they were STRONGLY discouraging eating in the diner. I do not think they permitted it at dinner, and at breakfast the word was "at your own risk" according to the (SOLE!) CCC attendant (who had to close down sales to coach passengers when it was time to prepare/deliver food to the sleepers)
> 
> Frankly at this point I'm hoping it will be OK to travel at Thanksgiving. I bought tickets but warned my mom and my brother's family that if this "wave" is worse then, I won't be traveling, DESPITE being vaccinated. I am probably being overly cautious but I have immune compromised friends here and have only me to rely on if I get sick....


I guess the next pandemic thing will be the booster shot... hopefully coming soon.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> I doubt it, because I don't see any OBS positions open for Chicago, New York, or New Orleans. Although maybe I'm wrong as people could've been contacted privately.
> 
> Training takes, I am guessing, no more than a few months


I was just talking about the Silvers, which I assume have Miami-based OBS (because what other train would?). I think the Meteor was the only eastern train (excluding Auto Train) to have full traditional dining at the start of the pandemic, so it makes sense the Silvers would be the first to get it back.


----------



## Triley

jis said:


> @Triley is it still Gate Gourmet? Or is it some other vendor?



Last I knew, it was. But admittedly, it's been almost 4 years now since I transferred off the corridor. I haven't even stepped on a Regional for leisure travel for almost 3 years now.



Cal said:


> Didn't realize how closely they mirror airlines there. I wonder if they could (and if it would be viable) to someday establish a similar situation on the Surfline and Capitol Corridor.



It's only the Acela (both First Class and Cafe) that does this, currently. I'm assuming/hoping that the new Venture sets will do the same. It makes it SO much easier to load/offload stock, get setup, and be able to open. The Talgo Series 8s were suppose to be able to use similar equipment, but they backed out of the plans for some reason.

I could see the idea rolling out (ha!) to other local/regional type services in the future. Whether they also use it to provide a First Class type service or not, would be interesting to see. I'm sure there are other services besides the Acela that would be able to support the service.



joelkfla said:


> They've posted openings for OBS jobs in Miami. Hopefully, the graduates of that class will be the ones to enable enhanced dining on the Silvers. Anyone know how long the onboarding and training takes?
> 
> I don't think expanding the café menu requires any additional staffing, so that and the enhancement of Eastern dining should be able to proceed independently of each other.



It depends on the position. SAs and TAs are about 2 weeks of class based training. LSAs are 3.5 weeks. There is also on-the-job training, which can be a be a few weeks to over a month, depending on how many services the person will work (LSAs in Seattle use to get at least 3 training trips on the Cascades, and 2 on the Builder).



Cal said:


> I doubt it, because I don't see any OBS positions open for Chicago, New York, or New Orleans. Although maybe I'm wrong as people could've been contacted privately.
> 
> Training takes, I am guessing, no more than a few months



Can't be contracted out at this point, due to our contract. The union would have a field day with penalty claims.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> I think the Meteor was the only eastern train (excluding Auto Train) to have full traditional dining at the start of the pandemic, so it makes sense the Silvers would be the first to get it back.



No, the meteor went to flex dining October 1, 2019 along with all other Easter trains.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> I doubt it, because I don't see any OBS positions open for Chicago, New York, or New Orleans. Although maybe I'm wrong as people could've been contacted privately.
> 
> Training takes, I am guessing, no more than a few months





Triley said:


> Can't be contracted out at this point, due to our contract. The union would have a field day with penalty claims.


That was contacted, not cont*r*acted.


----------



## TEREB

We


joelkfla said:


> I was just talking about the Silvers, which I assume have Miami-based OBS (because what other train would?). I think the Meteor was the only eastern train (excluding Auto Train) to have full traditional dining at the start of the pandemic, so it makes sense the Silvers would be the first to get it back.


 We had Flex Dining on our Oct 2019 south bound Meteor. And the food was terrible. Except for the bowl of fresh fruit, which we did not get on our June 2021 northbound trip. I doubt we’ll get traditional dining on our October southbound trip.


----------



## Dustyroad

Can anyone one that has been on the Southwest Chief in the last couple weeks tell me if they are still having open dining? Or are they recommending eating in your room?
Also I read some where that they had apple juice for breakfast, but I don't see it on the menu. I can't drink orange juice. Any answers would be helpful.


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> Can anyone one that has been on the Southwest Chief in the last couple weeks tell me if they are still having open dining? Or are they recommending eating in your room?
> Also I read some where that they had apple juice for breakfast, but I don't see it on the menu. I can't drink orange juice. Any answers would be helpful.


I'm afraid on my trip I didn't ask about apple juice. During my trip, a little over two weeks ago, they had open dining.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I


Dustyroad said:


> Can anyone one that has been on the Southwest Chief in the last couple weeks tell me if they are still having open dining? Or are they recommending eating in your room?
> Also I read some where that they had apple juice for breakfast, but I don't see it on the menu. I can't drink orange juice. Any answers would be helpful.


I don't drink Orange Juice either, and have always been able to get Apple or Cranberry in the Diner for Breakfast unless they're out.


----------



## OBS

jruff001 said:


> Apologies if I missed it, but I haven't seen a mention of recent Auto Train meal service experiences.
> 
> I rode it last week and was disappointed that we were told upon check-in that we would be served in our room, period. I found out later from our SCA that you can apparently get a seat in the diner only if you check in very early because they are still doing social distancing, but everyone else (who seemed to be the vast majority) still have to be served in their rooms. So we were, on plastic / styrofoam. At least it wasn't Flex Meals but it was still disappointing.
> 
> Does anyone know why they are doing it this way only on the AT but not the other trains that don't have Flex Dining? It is hardly "traditional" dining car service.
> 
> And the continental "breakfast" was also disappointing - all cold bread & carbs (& yoghurt) grab-and-go in the lounge; nothing hot. (Although I think this is how it has been for a while pre-Covid on the AT due to the early arrival, but I hadn't ridden it in ten years so I am not sure.)
> 
> I have seen posts on here before saying how the AT seems to always get the best of the best and dining car services were not changed because of Covid, but that is not the case.


AutoTrain has never served a hot breakfast....only similar versions of the continental that you received...


----------



## Dustyroad

Thanks for the reply's. I forgot to ask if there was coffee in the sleeper cars on the Chief. Also how far back from the engine are the sleepers on the Chief?


----------



## Nick Farr

mlanoue said:


> I've never been on the Acela. How do they cook those meals? Is there a real kitchen, or is it also convection/microwave ovens?



It's all pre-made and some kind of rapid oven tech. I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.

The irony is that on the Acela, they could just take meal preferences prior to travel and serve these meals essentially fresh from the station, without a need for reheating anything other than the bread.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.



Pullman Dining on the Great Western is one.


----------



## Nick Farr

Some are reporting that the coffee service is back. However, it could go away at any time due to policy or the whim of your SCA.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Pullman Dining on the Great Western is one.



I was unaware of that service, but it appears to be a select one available only on a few trains that qualify as "Higher" speed rail. It's slower than the Acela by a bit.

They haven't even electrified that entire route yet.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I was unaware of that service, but it appears to be a select one available only on a few trains that qualify as "Higher" speed rail. It's slower than the Acela by a bit.
> 
> They haven't even electrified that entire route yet.



You’ll have to take that up with Great Western, they advertise it as “high speed dining carriage” - pretty sure they do 125.


----------



## jis

Nick Farr said:


> I was unaware of that service, but it appears to be a select one available only on a few trains that qualify as "Higher" speed rail. It's slower than the Acela by a bit.
> 
> They haven't even electrified that entire route yet.


Having actually traveled that route many times I would not characterize it as an HSR except in the fevered fantasies of Americans maybe.  But then Americans seem to think 125mph is high speed rail. What can I say?

As it turns out almost everything that runs from Paddington to Reading runs for at least some distance at 125mph. Past Reading towards Cornwall it is a somewhat different story.


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> Thanks for the reply's. I forgot to ask if there was coffee in the sleeper cars on the Chief. Also how far back from the engine are the sleepers on the Chief?


My cardinal and SWC trip both had the coffee station running


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> But then Americans seem to think 125mph is high speed rail. What can I say?



The Great Western advertises it as “high-speed” so it’s not just Americans.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Great Western advertises it as “high-speed” so it’s not just Americans.



It also seems like a luxury amenity available on one route on a very select number of trains. Seems more like a tourist thing than anything else.

That being said, it's probably still the fastest full kitchen on rails.

The point here remains: Full kitchens don't appear to be a thing anywhere in the world on HSR, classified as a rail line built from the ballast up to serve trains that cruise at over 250km/hr.


----------



## finleyd

Any updates on the Silvers getting traditional dining? Traveling to Orlando from Philadelphia in December


----------



## jis

finleyd said:


> Any updates on the Silvers getting traditional dining? Traveling to Orlando from Philadelphia in December


No updates so far.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> It also seems like a luxury amenity available on one route on a very select number of trains. Seems more like a tourist thing than anything else.
> 
> That being said, it's probably still the fastest full kitchen on rails.
> 
> The point here remains: Full kitchens don't appear to be a thing anywhere in the world on HSR, classified as a rail line built from the ballast up to serve trains that cruise at over 250km/hr.



If we are talking about that classification of HSR then I’m not sure why you brought it up in connection with Acela.


----------



## Zcahn01

I was on the Silver Star two weeks ago and when chatting with the SCA’s in the dining car (commiserating about flex dining no less) they heard that traditional dining would be coming back mid-October.

Only rumors so who knows if it’s going to actually happen then. The sleepers and coaches were packed on the Silvers going both directions, so a busy service does seem like a good place to restart traditional dining on the east coast.


----------



## lordsigma

jruff001 said:


> I seen posts on here before saying how the AT seems to always get the best of the best and dining car services were not changed because of Covid, but that is not the case.



What never changed on the auto train is the meal options available in both the diner and coach cafe car - they never cut menu items or went to inferior food preparation. They did drop communal dining as you experienced (which it sounds like it has been dropped elsewhere including out west once again.) It’s just harder to get a reservation on the auto train because it’s a much larger amount of sleeper passengers that have to be served and I think they are just doing one in-diner seating. I managed to get a seating going one direction on the auto train back in April but they didn’t offer it coming home (I believe they were short staffed.) Your best chance to get it is to get there really early (before they actually start accepting vehicles) and check in at the counter. It is possible to check yourself in before checking in your vehicle and not a lot of people realize that so typically if you do that you get pretty much full choice of meal times. I’ve also heard reports (though can’t confirm this for sure) that sometimes on busy runs they are only offering the in diner seating to bedroom passengers.


----------



## cocojacoby

Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.

P.S. Amtrak just announced $29 Auto Train fares:


*One Traveler:*​*Fare:*​Coach​
$29​​
Roomette​
$129​​
Bedroom​
$329​​
​

*Two Travelers:*​*Fares:*​Roomette​
$189​​
Bedroom​

$389​


----------



## Dustyroad

Cal said:


> My cardinal and SWC trip both had the coffee station running


Thank you Cal. We are not going until the end of Sept. I hope that is still the case.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.


It all depends on how much money one wishes to spend, in support of how much revenue, and what alternative arrangements may be possible to provide the same level of service. Given the funds, one could set up dining support base in Beaumont TX too 

When you were required to reduce dining support costs to match revenues from dining service, it was natural that, as Mica intended, dining services would be cut back drastically.

On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> It all depends on how much money one wishes to spend, in support of how much revenue, and what alternative arrangements may be possible to provide the same level of service. Given the funds, one could set up dining support base in Beaumont TX too
> 
> When you were required to reduce dining support costs to match revenues from dining service, it was natural that, as Mica intended, dining services would be cut back drastically.
> 
> On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.


Actually, there are no facilities in Lorton itself. A daily truck is dispatched from the Wash DC Commissary to Lorton, to restock the lounge(s) and Diner(s) for each daily departure, and is designed for a round trip of supplies. Minimal assistance is available in Sanford, mostly Paper products and some frozen food items and other non perishables...


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> Actually, there are no facilities in Lorton itself. A daily truck is dispatched from the Wash DC Commissary to Lorton, to restock the lounge(s) and Diner(s) for each daily departure, and is designed for a round trip of supplies. Minimal assistance is available in Sanford, mostly Paper products and some frozen food items and other non perishables...


I suppose that is what keeps costs contained even further for the Auto Train operations.

Are there no refrigerated storage facilities in Sanford at all, i.e. the survival of the food in edible form depends on the refrigeration facility working in the Diners in the consists?

About Albany I was told that they need a refrigerated storage in order to be able to offload the food from consists that go in for overnight servicing. Ironically of course consists do not get powered down in Niagara Falls, since there would be no point to do so.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> I suppose that is what keeps costs contained even further for the Auto Train operations.
> 
> Are there no refrigerated storage facilities in Sanford at all, i.e. the survival of the food in edible form depends on the refrigeration facility working in the Diners in the consists?
> 
> About Albany I was told that they need a refrigerated storage in order to be able to offload the food from consists that go in for overnight servicing. Ironically of course consists do not get powered down in Niagara Falls, since there would be no point to do so.


I don't know for sure as we never had access to the storage (Mini-com) area. I do know on occasional trips where refrigeration failed, and we had a major food loss Southbound, A truck would be dispatched from the Miami Commissary with needed supplies


----------



## Triley

Nick Farr said:


> It's all pre-made and some kind of rapid oven tech. I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.
> 
> The irony is that on the Acela, they could just take meal preferences prior to travel and serve these meals essentially fresh from the station, without a need for reheating anything other than the bread.



How would that work, since the meals are brought in from only three airports (how would they stay hot)? Or for people boarding downline at stops with no catering service (BWI, BAL, WIL, PHL, TRE, MET, NWK, NHV, NLC, PVD, RTE)? There's also a lot of people who book/upgrade last minute on that train.


----------



## nferr

Nick Farr said:


> It's all pre-made and some kind of rapid oven tech. I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.
> 
> The irony is that on the Acela, they could just take meal preferences prior to travel and serve these meals essentially fresh from the station, without a need for reheating anything other than the bread.



Not everyone wants to eat the minute they get on the train. Also in the NEC people are constantly getting on and off. It's glorified commuter rail for somewhat longer distances.


----------



## Nick Farr

cocojacoby said:


> Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.



To highlight what people have said since in this thread: The AT is different. It only has terminus stops, so they know with a much higher degree of certainty who's going to be on board and what they want to eat, enough to staff the trains. It's more of a captive/predictable/niche market where they expect a higher degree of service. The food has always been a part of the experience on that train. They will lose customers and really stand nothing to gain from switching up the dining on that route. That train has a very select market with very select preferences.

And yes, dining "has always been" a part of the experience for LD train travelers--but a lot of the LD train passengers will continue to ride the rails even if the food service is not up to par.


----------



## Nick Farr

Triley said:


> How would that work, since the meals are brought in from only three airports (how would they stay hot)? Or for people boarding downline at stops with no catering service (BWI, BAL, WIL, PHL, TRE, MET, NWK, NHV, NLC, PVD, RTE)?



This is my driving point: Amtrak should partner with local vendors who can operate trackside or near trackside. This is not as tremendously complicated as it's made out to be. Those who are leaving NYP could place an order and have their dinner in a warming box loaded at NWK.

Even with a full kitchen, the Amtrak menus are really limited when they don't have to be.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.


I thought the AT actually made money, wasn't just 'close to breaking even'


----------



## Triley

Nick Farr said:


> This is my driving point: Amtrak should partner with local vendors who can operate trackside or near trackside. This is not as tremendously complicated as it's made out to be. Those who are leaving NYP could place an order and have their dinner in a warming box loaded at NWK.
> 
> Even with a full kitchen, the Amtrak menus are really limited when they don't have to be.



First, we need to talk logistics. Who would be responsible for loading that food? If it's not readily available on the platform, then there's a chance they the train will either leave an attendant behind, leave the food behind, or incur a delay waiting on the food to be brought to the train. How would dishes be handled? Would there be no more china, and everything would need on plastic plates/bowls?

Then there's the cost aspect. Efficiency is the name of the game when it comes to cost and operations. This idea would add SO much overhead that would ultimately be passed down to the First Class ticket buyers, and may very well make people decide on a lower class of service, or to just fly First Class.

I rarely ever heard complaints about the menu offerings on that train. Every 3 weeks the menus would rotate through 1 of 3 menus, and then the menus would completely change a few times a year. So regular riders always seemed happy...


----------



## Nick Farr

Triley said:


> First, we need to talk logistics. Who would be responsible for loading that food?



The vendor. Who waits trackside and pushes the cart onto the train. OBS need not even get off the train. This is actually the least complicated logistical issue.

Most complicated: How do you plan a menu and ordering system so the right orders get to the right passengers on time? How do you plan for variances or exceptions in the order? How can you onboard "disassembled" trays that can be lightly reheated for last minute orders. It's a complicated very custom job for a catering company.

Dishes are easy: They go right back into the warming boxes they came in and the vendor washes them.

As far as overhead: A commissary operation with fixed bases won't be necessary under this plan. The overhead savings of outsourcing the operation to several other bidders who can base themselves in much lower rent areas with much more flexible labor means there's a great possibility the costs go down quite a bit while adding more flexibility and opportunities for emerging food service vendors.

This is just an idea I have that seems to tick the boxes of cost savings and reliability. I don't think Amtrak management has the imagination to pull it off.


----------



## Nick Farr

Cal said:


> I thought the AT actually made money, wasn't just 'close to breaking even'



The AT basically breaks even. Sometimes it is profitable, sometimes it runs at a loss. 

The thing that separates it from every other LD route is that was the first brand new product/route in Intercity rail in the US after the advent of Jet Air travel. It was designed to serve a dedicated market segment between two destinations. It's much more of a land cruise than transportation.

All other existing LD routes essentially hail from pre-war passenger railroads with very little, if any, refreshing or consideration for contemporary transit practices.


----------



## joelkfla

Nick Farr said:


> Dishes are easy: They go right back into the warming boxes they came in and the vendor washes them.


Are you saying dirty dishes would remain fermenting on the train until the next time that trainset passed through the same station? That sounds pretty unsanitary, and the insides of those warming boxes would get mighty skanky.


----------



## Nick Farr

joelkfla said:


> Are you saying dirty dishes would remain fermenting on the train until the next time that trainset passed through the same station? That sounds pretty unsanitary, and the insides of those warming boxes would get mighty skanky.



As you do in any catering operation, anything left on the plates gets scraped off and thrown into composting/trash. That is serviced as any other trash/recycling on the train. The plates with some things left on them get thrown back in the box, which itself is cleaned between jobs.

Whether or not you have one vendor servicing contained segments is another matter for the tender.


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> It's much more of a land cruise than transportation.


I'm not sure if I would use this to describe it, however I'm honestly not sure what words I _would_ use so.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I'm not sure if I would use this to describe it, however I'm honestly not sure what words I _would_ use so.



Perhaps a rail ferry? Haha. The only thing in North America that I would describe as a rail cruise is the Rocky Mountaineer.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Perhaps a rail ferry? Haha. The only thing in North America that I would describe as a rail cruise is the Rocky Mountaineer.



Others in other Forums have called the Rocky Mountaineer a "rail cruise". 

My opinion: the Auto Train is not comparable to a cruise. The Auto Train is a convenient mode of transportation for my car and me when I choose not to drive the distance involved. I appreciated the opportunity to use it and would do so again in the future.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Others in other Forums have called the Rocky Mountaineer a "rail cruise".
> 
> My opinion: the Auto Train is not comparable to a cruise. The Auto Train is a convenient mode of transportation for my car and me when I choose not to drive the distance involved. I appreciated the opportunity to use it and would do so again in the future.



Yeah I agree on the Mountaineer. 

The reason I said “rail ferry” is a ferry is another form of transportation where you can sometimes take your car with you.


----------



## zephyr17

The Canadian has a lot of cruise like aspects, at least in normal times.

Not the least being only operating twice weekly drastically impairs its utility as a practical transportation option.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> The Canadian has a lot of cruise like aspects, at least in normal times.
> 
> Not the least being only operating twice weekly drastically impairs its utility as a practical transportation option.



I don’t consider it a land cruise at all. Many Canadians I met were using it for transportation.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> I don’t consider it a land cruise at all. Many Canadians I met were using it for transportation.


Many Canadians may use it for transportation, but with rotating menus of delicious food (including regional specialties), dome cars, the Park lounge, and traveling artist entertainment, it's also much more than that. Of course, I'm talking about the pre-pandemic incarnation.


----------



## Triley

Nick Farr said:


> As you do in any catering operation, anything left on the plates gets scraped off and thrown into composting/trash. That is serviced as any other trash/recycling on the train. The plates with some things left on them get thrown back in the box, which itself is cleaned between jobs.
> 
> Whether or not you have one vendor servicing contained segments is another matter for the tender.



I guess what joelkfla was trying to ask is....are those dishes staying on the train to go back to the same vendor in NWK? If the dishes are striped in Boston ABC WAS on many trainsets, how do the get back to NWK?

I get it, you're trying to be creative. But as an insider, there are just _way_ too many things that can go wrong. If there's 2 Acela in NWK at the same time, that business now needs two people to drop off food. I used the example of someone buying a ticket in NYP heading south, and that vendor now has to drop their primary operation to cook a single meal, and have it done in 20 minutes, for pickup in NWK. Tough, but it's doable.

But what about the opposite direction? Someone walks up in NYP and buys it upgrades their ticket going east. The next stop is NHV, an hour and a half downline. How do you accommodate them? What if they're getting off at NHV?

There's also FDA standards and consistency that need to be met, and as such, Amtrak prefers to pick national/major companies to do business with when it comes to food purchases.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Triley said:


> I guess what joelkfla was trying to ask is....are those dishes staying on the train to go back to the same vendor in NWK? If the dishes are striped in Boston ABC WAS on many trainsets, how do the get back to NWK?
> 
> I get it, you're trying to be creative. But as an insider, there are just _way_ too many things that can go wrong. If there's 2 Acela in NWK at the same time, that business now needs two people to drop off food. I used the example of someone buying a ticket in NYP heading south, and that vendor now has to drop their primary operation to cook a single meal, and have it done in 20 minutes, for pickup in NWK. Tough, but it's doable.
> 
> But what about the opposite direction? Someone walks up in NYP and buys it upgrades their ticket going east. The next stop is NHV, an hour and a half downline. How do you accommodate them? What if they're getting off at NHV?
> 
> There's also FDA standards and consistency that need to be met, and as such, Amtrak prefers to pick national/major companies to do business with when it comes to food purchases.



I’m not sure how this makes sense financially either. You still have to staff the train. Having multiple food delivery operations can’t possibly be cheaper than operating a central commissary that loads all of the trains.


----------



## Railspike

Are meals still being served in the diners or are they serving meals in rooms only?


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure how this makes sense financially either. You still have to staff the train. Having multiple food delivery operations can’t possibly be cheaper than operating a central commissary that loads all of the trains.



A central commissary has overhead costs, along with the overhead of keeping food on the trains, freshness and ingredient sourcing, etc.

The idea is hiring catering vendors, who have other business like weddings and corporate parties, to also provide for the Acela trains.

The idea is to provide more and fresher options.


----------



## Nick Farr

Railspike said:


> Are meals still being served in the diners or are they serving meals in rooms only?



I was on the CZ a few days ago and the diners were always full. A lot of sleeping car passengers were also taking meals to go, there were SCAs ferrying meals every time we were in the diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I was on the CZ a few days ago and the diners were always full. A lot of sleeping car passengers were also taking meals to go, there were SCAs ferrying meals every time we were in the diner.



Yes - a few days ago I photographed the Chief in New Mexico and there were people seated in the dining car having lunch.


----------



## Sidney

I'm on day two of my $299 rail pass on the SW Chief. Left LA yesterday on the way to Las Vegas,NM for my first stop. I brought some danish with me and purchased a microwaved bagel and cream cheese and coffee and ate it in the Sightseer Car. Been here since 5AM to enjoy a beautiful Arizona sunrise.

Somebody posted a picture of the french toast from the diner on the same train I am on a few minutes ago. I was trying so hard not to think about the great food I am missing by being in coach and not being able to purchase any of it! Hopefully in Albuquerque there will be enough time to grab something off the train. Staying at the Plaza Hotel in Las Vegas tonight. I m sure dinner tonight and breakfast tomorrow will be fine.

Back on the Chief to Kansas City tomorrow a night in KC,the Missouri River Runner to St Louis Sunday,then a thruway bus to Carbondale and the City of New Orleans to NO. Boarding the CONO at 1:30AM by design to avoid a full overnight in coach.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Somebody posted a picture of the french toast from the diner on the same train I am on a few minutes ago


On AU? Curious if you let them know you're on the train


----------



## Sidney

Cal said:


> On AU? Curious if you let them know you're on the train


No. Facebook. Just thought it was coincidental it popped up just as I was eating my microwaved bagel and I was thinking about the great breakfast next door in the dining car.


----------



## Nick Farr

Sidney said:


> No. Facebook. Just thought it was coincidental it popped up just as I was eating my microwaved bagel and I was thinking about the great breakfast next door in the dining car.



Based on my experience on the CZ, it seems like they simply don't have enough OBS to serve everyone on the train. 

Whereas I recall there being two dining car attendants in addition to an LSA, there appeared to be only one exceptional LSA and one unremarkable dining car attendant. There were meals were the LSA was by themselves with the assistance of a SCA.

What I'm saying is that it appears they're using the excuse of being unable to do communal seating to mask a staffing and logistics issue more than anything else.


----------



## lordsigma

Nick Farr said:


> Based on my experience on the CZ, it seems like they simply don't have enough OBS to serve everyone on the train.
> 
> Whereas I recall there being two dining car attendants in addition to an LSA, there appeared to be only one exceptional LSA and one unremarkable dining car attendant. There were meals were the LSA was by themselves with the assistance of a SCA.
> 
> What I'm saying is that it appears they're using the excuse of being unable to do communal seating to mask a staffing and logistics issue more than anything else.


You are correct -they appear to have reduced the service crew on the superliner diners to just the LSA and one SA by not having coach passengers and going cashless. Basically when they went back to traditional dining they just brought back the chef - the rest of the crew is the same as it was when they were serving flex. They probably could serve coach with the current crew if they do it as a first class meal upgrade and handle the transactions in Arrow. That way the LSA still wouldn't have to handle cash and the only transactions they would have are lunchtime alcoholic beverages or subsequent beverages at dinner (the first drink at all dinners is on Amtrak) which allows the LSA to do more direct serving.


----------



## Nick Farr

lordsigma said:


> You are correct -they appear to have reduced the service crew on the superliner diners to just the LSA and one SA by not having coach passengers and going cashless. Basically when they went back to traditional dining they just brought back the chef - the rest of the crew is the same as it was when they were serving flex.



Well, given how far out they do crew schedules, this makes a lot of sense.



lordsigma said:


> They probably could serve coach with the current crew if they do it as a first class meal upgrade and handle the transactions in Arrow.



The cafe car attendant could just sell vouchers with specific reservation times. That handles the cash handling aspect of it. Presumably, the POS system could be upgraded for it--that may be easier than trying to have the dining car folks handle cash.

However, the other problem is simply seating--it's always packed in there and they can't seat different sets of people together because of understandable COVID restrictions.


----------



## joelkfla

Nick Farr said:


> Presumably, the POS system could be upgraded for it--that may be easier than trying to have the dining car folks handle cash.


Not if it has to be done by Amtrak IT.


----------



## lordsigma

Some rumblings on a Facebook group about the dining upgrades coming - one person stated they heard some OBS hiring is occurring and that the silver meteor will be the first train to receive upgraded F&B. I still predict that only the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Lake Shore will receive the full table service dining format that the western trains received with a chef and full table service and separate dining and cafe car. I believe the other trains will get something more akin to simplified dining/diner lite or the original cross country cafe concept - possibly a smaller version of the same menu (minus steak and fresh eggs - stuff that requires the chef.)


----------



## Anthony V

lordsigma said:


> Some rumblings on a Facebook group about the dining upgrades coming - one person stated they heard some OBS hiring is occurring and that the silver meteor will be the first train to receive upgraded F&B. I still predict that only the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Lake Shore will receive the full table service dining format that the western trains received with a chef and full table service and separate dining and cafe car. I believe the other trains will get something more akin to simplified dining/diner lite or the original cross country cafe concept - possibly a smaller version of the same menu (minus steak and fresh eggs - stuff that requires the chef.)


I hope you're right. All of these dining service models are better than flex dining. Although it would be better if every LD train, both west and east of the Mississippi, got full service dining, I can see the routes with shorter average passenger trips, like the CL, CONO and Cardinal, not having it due to the shorter trip time or the fewer number of passengers taking longer trips involving more meal periods.


----------



## neroden

lordsigma said:


> Some rumblings on a Facebook group about the dining upgrades coming - one person stated they heard some OBS hiring is occurring and that the silver meteor will be the first train to receive upgraded F&B. I still predict that only the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Lake Shore will receive the full table service dining format that the western trains received with a chef and full table service and separate dining and cafe car. I believe the other trains will get something more akin to simplified dining/diner lite or the original cross country cafe concept - possibly a smaller version of the same menu (minus steak and fresh eggs - stuff that requires the chef.)


If it was like the Acela First Class meals it would be OK. (As long as they had ingredients lists.)

LSL was selling the most meals to coach passengers before the first round of downgrades, so Amtrak really should figure out how to do that on the LSL.


----------



## neroden

Nick Farr said:


> The cafe car attendant could just sell vouchers with specific reservation times. That handles the cash handling aspect of it. Presumably, the POS system could be upgraded for it--that may be easier than trying to have the dining car folks handle cash.



Could even pre-sell them -- if you want meals on board, you have to order them with your ticket. I know some people don't like to plan in advance, but it would be fine for a lot of people. I've done that sort of thing for festivals and events.

Again requires Amtrak IT to be a lot more together than they currently are, though.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> one person stated they heard some OBS hiring is occurring and that the silver meteor will be the first train to receive upgraded F&B.


There was a post here a couple of weeks ago about OBS openings based in Miami being posted.


----------



## Triley

Nick Farr said:


> What I'm saying is that it appears they're using the excuse of being unable to do communal seating to mask a staffing and logistics issue more than anything else.



This is also not the case... A high ranking manager was riding a train, saw how cramped the diner was (especially using the old communal style method, forcing people to sit together to fill tables, while other tables in the car go completely unused), and issued an update effective immediately that the crews were to go back to one party = one table. They cited how cramped the tables were, and the surging Delta variant.


----------



## Triley

lordsigma said:


> You are correct -they appear to have reduced the service crew on the superliner diners to just the LSA and one SA by not having coach passengers and going cashless. Basically when they went back to traditional dining they just brought back the chef - the rest of the crew is the same as it was when they were serving flex. They probably could serve coach with the current crew if they do it as a first class meal upgrade and handle the transactions in Arrow. That way the LSA still wouldn't have to handle cash and the only transactions they would have are lunchtime alcoholic beverages or subsequent beverages at dinner (the first drink at all dinners is on Amtrak) which allows the LSA to do more direct serving.



Even before getting rid of communal seating recently, crews could barely keep up with the demand from the sleeper passengers. At the absolute best.....they could possibly handle to-go orders. But taking coach passengers in the to the diner is simply not an option with the current staffing available.

Also, the first alcoholic drink is only being advertised as being included for dinner because of all diner patrons being First Class passengers. If the diner was opened up to coach tomorrow, that same deal would _not_ be apply to them.



Nick Farr said:


> The cafe car attendant could just sell vouchers with specific reservation times. That handles the cash handling aspect of it. Presumably, the POS system could be upgraded for it--that may be easier than trying to have the dining car folks handle cash.
> 
> However, the other problem is simply seating--it's always packed in there and they can't seat different sets of people together because of understandable COVID restrictions.



It's not about handling cash (or credit cards to be correct), as the diner does have a credit card machine for charging any alcoholic beverages that aren't comped. It rests solely on diner capacity, as you mentioned. If there was a second SA available for each diner crew it would be much more easily manageable. The company is constantly trying to get new hires now, so maybe one day again soon...



neroden said:


> Could even pre-sell them -- if you want meals on board, you have to order them with your ticket. I know some people don't like to plan in advance, but it would be fine for a lot of people. I've done that sort of thing for festivals and events.
> 
> Again requires Amtrak IT to be a lot more together than they currently are, though.



Anything would be better than nothing. But as I mentioned, it's more of a car capacity thing right now. Plus, the kitchens are also running on thin crews as well, and this new menu is very time consuming due to the high level of food presentation. Many kitchens struggled to keep up with just the sleeper passengers when this menu was rolled out. At this point, most would likely be able to handle a little more.


----------



## lordsigma

Triley said:


> Also, the first alcoholic drink is only being advertised as being included for dinner because of all diner patrons being First Class passengers. If the diner was opened up to coach tomorrow, that same deal would _not_ be apply to them.



I personally disagree that they will go back to the old way of putting prices on the menu for coach passengers - I could be wrong but they seem to want to avoid that. I think they will do it as an upgrade type of thing where you either pay a fixed rate to get access to the diner right when you buy your ticket based on the duration of your trip or thru some other website closer to departure sort of like how they did the flex dining pre-selection or alternatively as a per meal fixed charge type thing with a simple cost per meal rather than costing the menu items - and I think they’ll probably get the same deal at dinner - why not just build that first drink into the price of the dinner package however they do it? That way the crew doesn’t have to do anything different for the coach passengers in the diner and it’s just a matter of car capacity and how many passengers they can handle per crew member. With going back to one party per table though it probably won’t be anytime soon - at least for coach passengers that want to sit in the diner - maybe a takeout method as you suggested.


----------



## Nick Farr

Triley said:


> It's not about handling cash (or credit cards to be correct), as the diner does have a credit card machine for charging any alcoholic beverages that aren't comped.



Assuming they.had sufficient staff, or kept the diner open longer, the voucher system also removes the need for the Dining Car staff to take reservations or worry about billing. 

The idea is not so much lack of capability to charge as much as offloading work, since as you say, the cars are overworked.


----------



## lordsigma

neroden said:


> Could even pre-sell them -- if you want meals on board, you have to order them with your ticket. I know some people don't like to plan in advance, but it would be fine for a lot of people. I've done that sort of thing for festivals and events.
> 
> Again requires Amtrak IT to be a lot more together than they currently are, though.


I think this is how they’ll do it - I don’t think prices are going back on the menu.


----------



## Nick Farr

lordsigma said:


> I think this is how they’ll do it - I don’t think prices are going back on the menu.



It appears they're moving to a prix-fixe model which makes the most sense. They can offer higher quality options, shift more of the cooking time to prep work and cut down on inventory, spoilage, storage, etc. 

The desserts, for example, appear to be slices off a larger common cake than the individual servings they were before.

Long story short: It's an amazing improvement all the way around.


----------



## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> The desserts, for example, appear to be slices off a larger common cake than the individual servings they were before.


I can back this up, I saw the carrot cake myself.


----------



## me_little_me

neroden said:


> Could even pre-sell them -- if you want meals on board, you have to order them with your ticket. I know some people don't like to plan in advance, but it would be fine for a lot of people. I've done that sort of thing for festivals and events.
> 
> Again requires Amtrak IT to be a lot more together than they currently are, though.


That might lose some business. There is little reason why Amtrak can't implement the capability to offer pre-paid meals up to, say, hours or a few days before departure. Well, Amtrak might not be capable of handling it but companies interested in maximizing their sales would figure out a way. Leaving money on the table (no pun intended) is something Amtrak does very well but can least afford to do.


----------



## TEREB

Silver Meteor (occasional Star) rider here. 
If Amtrak would bring back any dishes, what would you like to see return?
I’ll start. 
I would love to see grits for breakfast and the beautiful fresh fruit bowl we had on our Oct 2019 flex breakfast. For lunch I would go for the veggie burger with cheese and bacon and the salad with corn/shrimp soup they offered in 2012 or 2013. For dinner, the crab cakes. The salmon and the cod were pretty good too.


----------



## Sidney

TEREB said:


> Silver Meteor (occasional Star) rider here.
> If Amtrak would bring back any dishes, what would you like to see return?
> I’ll start.
> I would love to see grits for breakfast and the beautiful fresh fruit bowl we had on our Oct 2019 flex breakfast. For lunch I would go for the veggie burger with cheese and bacon and the salad with corn/shrimp soup they offered in 2012 or 2013. For dinner, the crab cakes. The salmon and the cod were pretty good too.


Anything that is not microwaved or reheated aka flex dining. The traditional dining menu,or even a portion of it would be most welcome on the Eastern trains and Texas Eagle


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Anything that is not microwaved or reheated aka flex dining. The traditional dining menu,or even a portion of it would be most welcome on the Eastern trains and Texas Eagle


Remembering what was the former service before flex... those quickly prepared meals were of poor quality... remembering breakfasts of eggs, shriveled has browns, and bacon swimming in grease. 

But I'm thinking that the trend as presented on LD services in the West and Acela 1st class forecasts much nicer service... perhaps with a limited menu and smaller scale... still far better than either the flex or the prior service.


----------



## jis

It should be noted that everything served in Acela is pre-plated and either kept warm until served or reheated. Also remember that airlines serve superb cuisine in intercontinental Business/First Class that involves absolutely no cooking on board (weell, maybe except baking Chocolate Chip Cookies which United does). So pre-cooking and reheating in and of itself does not imply bad cuisine. It all depends on what one is willing to do and pay for.


----------



## me_little_me

TEREB said:


> For lunch I would go for the veggie burger with cheese and bacon


Veggie Burger with bacon? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Like eating a piece of cake with a diet Coke.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Also remember that airlines serve superb cuisine in intercontinental*** Business/First Class that involves absolutely no cooking on board (weell, maybe except baking Chocolate Chip Cookies which United does).


Some airlines also claim they cook rice or poach eggs on board. I'm not sure what sort of culinary magic is required to serve medium-rare Wagyu that looks and tastes freshly prepared but they clearly found a way. Even the anytime menu crab cakes were convincing enough that I would have presumed fresh cooking if not for knowing better.

***


----------



## Nick Farr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Some airlines also claim they cook rice or poach eggs on board.



All rice or poached eggs require are the right water/vinegar mixture in the right ratio in a well-contained appliance. There's not much actual cooking skill required. Many restaurants poach eggs in a microwave.

A lot of airline food cooking is just applying well-known pre-cooking and slow-cooking catering techniques. When you're catering chicken, for example, you undercook it in the kitchen the morning before its served. Keeping it at a minimum safe temperature in a humid warm pan will make it amazingly tender and perfectly cooked/moist when served if timed correctly.

That being said, airline food is a totally different thing and at the higher end is kept to high standards because of intense competition.


----------



## RRrich

me_little_me said:


> Veggie Burger with bacon? Isn't that an oxymoron?
> 
> Like eating a piece of cake with a diet Coke.


Both of which are quite common


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Veggie Burger with bacon? Isn't that an oxymoron?
> 
> Like eating a piece of cake with a diet Coke.


I believe I saw on this forum that it's called the cheaters burger!

Anyway, what I'd like to see come back is basically everything on the current traditional menu (everything I had was superb). I remember enjoying the Quesadillas, and pancakes back in 2017 and 2018. Although I did forget about the Quesadillas until I took a look at an old Starlight menu I have.


----------



## zephyr17

me_little_me said:


> Veggie Burger with bacon? Isn't that an oxymoron?
> 
> Like eating a piece of cake with a diet Coke.


Their old veggie burger was quite yummy. It didn't try to imitate a real burger and it was spicy and tasty. I ordered it several times myself, just to change things up on long trips.

It was great with bacon.


----------



## TEREB

me_little_me said:


> Veggie Burger with bacon? Isn't that an oxymoron?
> 
> Like eating a piece of cake with a diet Coke.


A tasty one at that. Lol


----------



## JayPea

I once ordered the veggie burger with cheese and bacon and referred to it as the hypocrite burger. The server got a kick out of that.


----------



## flitcraft

Pork and beans go together like, well, pork and beans. Now, if you're eating the veggie burger because you don't eat meat or you don't eat pork, that's one thing. But I sometimes ordered the veggie burger simply because it was a tasty option. Wish I'd thought to add some bacon to it, though...


----------



## moosejunky99

how is the food on zephyr in the covid times?


----------



## Nick Farr

moosejunky99 said:


> how is the food on zephyr in the covid times?



Now it's better than it was before COVID.


----------



## Cal

moosejunky99 said:


> how is the food on zephyr in the covid times?


Really good


----------



## Mr.Technician

I was very happy to see that traditional dining is back! I'm not sure when I'll travel next though, the COVID restrictions and possibly not having a sightseer lounge take the fun out of the train for me...


----------



## Cal

Mr.Technician said:


> I was very happy to see that traditional dining is back! I'm not sure when I'll travel next though, the COVID restrictions and possibly not having a sightseer lounge take the fun out of the train for me...


All western trains minus the TE have SSL's


----------



## moosejunky99

Food was amazing on the chief when i took it in 2019 before the covid... even got into FUL 40 min early..


----------



## Cal

moosejunky99 said:


> Food was amazing on the chief when i took it in 2019 before the covid... even got into FUL 40 min early..


Food was amazing on my Chief trip a month ago (WOW on 7/30/21 we were going through NM, this month went fast). I, on the other hand, would consider getting into FUL 40 minutes early a negative. More train time if you're delayed!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Food was amazing on my Chief trip a month ago (WOW on 7/30/20 we were going through NM, this month went fast). I, on the other hand, would consider getting into FUL 40 minutes early a negative. More train time if you're delayed!


Edit needed  Or did time really go that fast....


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> Edit needed  Or did time really go that fast....


Perhaps it did


----------



## Nick Farr

We're back on our return trip on the CZ...and the roll is back!




Here's the Lobster Crab Cake:


----------



## desertflyer

Sorry if this has been asked already - is community seating back yet? Or does each party get their own table? I'm still worried about COVID spread.

Edit: Nevermind, I see now there is quite a bit of discussion about the 1 party per table policy in effect on the previous pages.


----------



## Nick Farr

desertflyer said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already - is community seating back yet? Or does each party get their own table? I'm still worried about COVID spread.



No, I doubt community seating will return anytime soon if at all. Each party is at their own table. However, every table is occupied whereas they used to keep every other table empty.

You also have the option to dine in your room.


----------



## Cal

desertflyer said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already - is community seating back yet? Or does each party get their own table? I'm still worried about COVID spread.
> 
> Edit: Nevermind, I see now there is quite a bit of discussion about the 1 party per table policy in effect on the previous pages.


It WAS back, it's been reverted now.


----------



## Samphill

Am traveling on CZ in two weeks using rail pass which means coach seating. Is the dining car open for coach passengers?


----------



## Nick Farr

Samphill said:


> Am traveling on CZ in two weeks using rail pass which means coach seating. Is the dining car open for coach passengers?



Not as of right now, and it's unlikely it will happen prior to your trip.

There is the cafe car as normal.


----------



## Sidney

Samphill said:


> Am traveling on CZ in two weeks using rail pass which means coach seating. Is the dining car open for coach passengers?


Sadly,no. I am also on a rail pass. I booked the EB next week in a sleeper to break up my pass. I was on the SW Chief on my pass last week. While eating a microwaved bagel in the sightseer car and browsing through facebook,a picture of the french toast popped up by a passenger next door in the dining car.


----------



## tim49424

I rode the Empire Builder RT Chicago-Seattle a couple of weeks ago. The food actually has improved from the previous traditional dining pre-Covid. Dinners are served on cloth tablecloths, with true silverware, two real roses at each table but still on plastic plates and drinks in plastic cups (I was told by the Dining Car Attendant that the china is still on backorder). Community seating is indeed still suspended, so I ate alone, but not a huge deal to me, although I do miss the company at meals. Yes, I could've eaten in my room, but still I could interact with staff and other passengers at times versus isolation in my room.


----------



## lordsigma

Mr.Technician said:


> I was very happy to see that traditional dining is back! I'm not sure when I'll travel next though, the COVID restrictions and possibly not having a sightseer lounge take the fun out of the train for me...


To reiterate what Cal said - all trains currently with traditional dining also have a sightseer - all double overnighters plus the coast starlight. The main part of the Texas eagle has neither a sightseer or traditional dining - the full sunset limited does including where it also has Texas eagle cars to and from LA. Only real restrictions right now are no communal seating in the diner and you have to wear a mask.


----------



## Mr.Technician

lordsigma said:


> To reiterate what Cal said - all trains currently with traditional dining also have a sightseer - all double overnighters plus the coast starlight. The main part of the Texas eagle has neither a sightseer or traditional dining - the full sunset limited does including where it also has Texas eagle cars to and from LA. Only real restrictions right now are no communal seating in the diner and you have to wear a mask.


That's good to hear. The SSL has always been the highlight of my trips, sleeper or coach. I'm awaiting the time when the COVID restrictions are no more- big amtrak plans are being made.


----------



## Sauve850

Cal said:


> It WAS back, it's been reverted now.


Not true on my Cardinal trip this past week. Diner was full and everyone sat with anyone.


----------



## zephyr17

Sauve850 said:


> Not true on my Cardinal trip this past week. Diner was full and everyone sat with anyone.


Amtrak. The world's leader in inconsistency.


----------



## JayPea

Sauve850 said:


> Not true on my Cardinal trip this past week. Diner was full and everyone sat with anyone.


My uncle was on the California Zephyr beginning Thursday and said the same: full diners and communal seating; anyone ate with anyone.


----------



## John Bredin

My sister and brother-in-law were on the eastbound Capitol Ltd. Friday and said they could order dinner only in their roomette. Didn't ask yet about breakfast or lunch.


----------



## PaTrainFan

I was in coach on the Empire Builder from CHI to MSP Wednesday so obviously could not partake of dining but heard the announcements from the diner which indicated there was no longer communal dining but parties would be seated together and that singles would have their dinner in their rooms.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sauve850 said:


> Not true on my Cardinal trip this past week. Diner was full and everyone sat with anyone.


The cooks and waiters on Amtrak, although staffing is stretched thin, are medically trained fully certified MD's so they know all that stuff. Rest assured that if they spray around the food as they talk, sneeze, and eat... and you get it in your face... you are perfectly ok!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PaTrainFan said:


> I was in coach on the Empire Builder from CHI to MSP Wednesday so obviously could not partake of dining but heard the announcements from the diner which indicated there was no longer communal dining but parties would be seated together and that singles would have their dinner in their rooms.



Ah! Yet another rule made up by Amtrak staff.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PaTrainFan said:


> I was in coach on the Empire Builder from CHI to MSP Wednesday so obviously could not partake of dining but heard the announcements from the diner which indicated there was no longer communal dining but parties would be seated together and that singles would have their dinner in their rooms.



A Further thought on this... I shouldn’t be forbidden to eat in the dining car because I am traveling by myself. It should be first come first serve for private table reservations in the diner. 

These types of crazy rules made up by amtrak staff is why I stopped traveling with Amtrak as much even before covid.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> A Further thought on this... I shouldn’t be forbidden to eat in the dining car because I am traveling by myself. It should be first come first serve for private table reservations in the diner.


Agreed. Some LSA's have a history of ignoring customer needs, treating solo travel like a four letter word, and barking threats at customers who fail to follow the fabricated rules of their mobile fiefdom. I am happy that Amtrak traditional dining is coming back but I was disappointed to hear the same old staff was coming back with it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> A Further thought on this... I shouldn’t be forbidden to eat in the dining car because I am traveling by myself. It should be first come first serve for private table reservations in the diner.
> 
> These types of crazy rules made up by amtrak staff is why I stopped traveling with Amtrak as much even before covid.


You're absolutely right! It's discrimination against solo travelers... and I've encountered this many times on Amtrak! Be sure to call customer relations and complain... that you [and others traveling solo] want the same rights and privileges as couples especially when you're paying for sleeping accommodations... with included meals in the dining car!


----------



## tim49424

20th Century Rider said:


> You're absolutely right! It's discrimination against solo travelers... and I've encountered this many times on Amtrak! Be sure to call customer relations and complain... that you [and others traveling solo] want the same rights and privileges as couples especially when you're paying for sleeping accommodations... with included meals in the dining car!



This is only true on certain trains. I didn't experience it at all a couple of weeks ago on the Empire Builder. Both directions I had really good dining staffs. The ones who are disallowing the single riders to eat in the dining car are simply lazy and should be reprimanded. Their laziness puts more work on the SCAs that then have to deliver each and every meal to the rooms. They work hard enough as it is. There's no excuse for single riders being forced to eat in their rooms.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> This is only true on certain trains. I didn't experience it at all a couple of weeks ago on the Empire Builder. Both directions I had really good dining staffs. The ones who are disallowing the single riders to eat in the dining car are simply lazy and should be reprimanded. Their laziness puts more work on the SCAs that then have to deliver each and every meal to the rooms. They work hard enough as it is. There's no excuse for single riders being forced to eat in their rooms.



I’m guessing that with only sleeping car passengers everything would work out on its own. Some solo travelers will want to eat in the diner, some will want room service. Some couples will want to eat in the diner, some will want room service. 

How many rooms do the LD trains have in service these days? Maybe 36 rooms? (2 sleepers minus some for crew). That means every room can be accomodated with 2 seatings.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m guessing that with only sleeping car passengers everything would work out on its own. Some solo travelers will want to eat in the diner, some will want room service. Some couples will want to eat in the diner, some will want room service.
> 
> How many rooms do the LD trains have in service these days? Maybe 36 rooms? (2 sleepers minus some for crew). That means every room can be accomodated with 2 seatings.



To the first point......the sleeper passengers are entitled to make the choice of eating in the diner or their room, whether we're in a pandemic or not. It's one of the amenities. The dining staff do not have the authority to take that amenity away unless Amtrak policy changes. 

To the second point....there were four or five seatings each evening (pretty much status quo). They accommodated social distancing perfectly, in my opinion.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> To the second point....there were four or five seatings each evening (pretty much status quo). They accommodated social distancing perfectly, in my opinion.



Were they skipping tables as well? 4-5 seatings seems like quite a few.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> Were they skipping tables as well? 4-5 seatings seems like quite a few.



All tables were full. 4-5 dinner seatings on the Empire Builder is pretty much the norm and has been for years. Breakfast and lunch, they had waiting lists about an hour after opening. As I said before, they did a fine job, in both directions, of accommodating all parties.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> A Further thought on this... I shouldn’t be forbidden to eat in the dining car because I am traveling by myself. It should be first come first serve for private table reservations in the diner.



I agree with you. The money that I pay for my accommodation is worth the same as any other passenger in the Sleeper whether there are 2/3/4/etc. in their party. This is blatant discrimination. 

Why is such happening?

COVID is the reason. That darn virus has so upset the norms for daily living that what one ought to expect may or may not be what is experienced. The regulations/requirements for travel seem to be changing almost daily. And, if Amtrak crews are allowed to "set their own rules"....?

I don't see me taking another trip to any where for quite some time. I have jumped through enough hoops in my life as a senior citizen. I am unwilling to have to pay to jump through some more hoops without knowing what I can certainly expect on the other side.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tim49424 said:


> This is only true on certain trains. I didn't experience it at all a couple of weeks ago on the Empire Builder. Both directions I had really good dining staffs. The ones who are disallowing the single riders to eat in the dining car are simply lazy and should be reprimanded. Their laziness puts more work on the SCAs that then have to deliver each and every meal to the rooms. They work hard enough as it is. There's no excuse for single riders being forced to eat in their rooms.


Amen!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> I agree with you. The money that I pay for my accommodation is worth the same as any other passenger in the Sleeper whether there are 2/3/4/etc. in their party. This is blatant discrimination.
> 
> Why is such happening?
> 
> COVID is the reason. That darn virus has so upset the norms for daily living that what one ought to expect may or may not be what is experienced. The regulations/requirements for travel seem to be changing almost daily. And, if Amtrak crews are allowed to "set their own rules"....?
> 
> I don't see me taking another trip to any where for quite some time. I have jumped through enough hoops in my life as a senior citizen. I am unwilling to have to pay to jump through some more hoops without knowing what I can certainly expect on the other side.


It's like we're paying top dollar for some lazy incompetent employees to take advantage of seniors who've saved their entire lives to travel in comfort with respect and dignity. 

It has been said... "There's no such thing as a free lunch!" unless the poorly inconsistent Amtrak management lets them have it from the wallet of single seniors... to work less... but on our dime!


----------



## jis

Amtrak has always been somewhat anti single traveler in my experience. This is just a continuation of the same theme which has caused me to progressively fly more


----------



## nendee

I ride the lake shore limited from Springfield to Chicago on Sunday - I have a roomette. I’ll keep you posted on dining.


----------



## Dustyroad

Cal said:


> Food was amazing on my Chief trip a month ago (WOW on 7/30/21 we were going through NM, this month went fast). I, on the other hand, would consider getting into FUL 40 minutes early a negative. More train time if you're delayed!


I'm so glad you enjoyed the food and your trip. Did they have coffee in the sleeping cars? I really need that first cup of coffee first thing when I wake up .


----------



## 20th Century Rider

nendee said:


> I ride the lake shore limited from Springfield to Chicago on Sunday - I have a roomette. I’ll keep you posted on dining.


Knowing they still have flex dining, I would bring along some PBn'J and a good loaf of grain n' seed bread so as not to be confronted with the cardboard n sugar breakfast and the pre manufactured highly processed puddle meals. Did you consider ordering the kosher meals?


----------



## MainerTrainer

We rode the CZ from Denver to San Francisco a couple days ago. The food was good to very good. Fresh flowers on the table and white tablecloth for dinner. Service was slow compared to a restaurant but this was on a train, after all. 

Between Chicago and Denver, an earlier leg, we were offered the chance to dine with other passengers. Pre-COVID we would have but declined. That was not offered after Denver but we saw single diners at a table at each meal. 

Yes, more inconsistent Amtrak procedures. But the food was so much better than the flex meals we had earlier this year!


----------



## fillyjonk

jis said:


> Amtrak has always been somewhat anti single traveler in my experience. This is just a continuation of the same theme which has caused me to progressively fly more


In my experience, the entire travel industry is anti single traveler. Amtrak seems no worse to me than some other arms of it. Maybe it's worse in COVID? I've only traveled twice, both times this summer, since 2019. The biggest thing I noticed was the inconsistency of precautions - on some runs "sure fine, eat in the dining car" on others "you need to eat in the dining car" and on still others "eat in the dining car? Are you nuts! Wait for us to bring the food to your accommodation"


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> I'm so glad you enjoyed the food and your trip. Did they have coffee in the sleeping cars? I really need that first cup of coffee first thing when I wake up .


Yep, coffee was available


----------



## Dustyroad

Cal said:


> Yep, coffee was available


Thank you Cal . Now I will be able to start my day with a smile on the train.


----------



## tim49424

jis said:


> Amtrak has always been somewhat anti single traveler in my experience. This is just a continuation of the same theme which has caused me to progressively fly more



Oddly enough, I’ve never felt any bias when traveling alone. Maybe I’m just lucky?


----------



## jis

fillyjonk said:


> In my experience, the entire travel industry is anti single traveler. Amtrak seems no worse to me than some other arms of it.


In my experience on airlines that I use, I have never been forced to give up an assigned seat that I am already sitting in, to accommodate a group. Of course such is known to have happened on occasions to others. I have voluntarily done so to make it possible for a mother to sit by her kid and such. But never forced by a barking crew member threatening dire consequence otherwise. One time I have been upgraded to possibly use my seat for something else. But always handled with grace, not menacingly. Of course it is possible that my FF status has something to do with it. Then again as a counter example, there is Air India 

Since Amtrak does not assign seats on LD trains, it gives a complete free hand to its crew to do whatever they please, and as we know Amtrak's crew training and uniformity of standards is not exactly world leading. So stuff just happens depending on the mood of the CA and Conductor.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fillyjonk said:


> In my experience, the entire travel industry is anti single traveler. Amtrak seems no worse to me than some other arms of it. Maybe it's worse in COVID? I've only traveled twice, both times this summer, since 2019. The biggest thing I noticed was the inconsistency of precautions - on some runs "sure fine, eat in the dining car" on others "you need to eat in the dining car" and on still others "eat in the dining car? Are you nuts! Wait for us to bring the food to your accommodation"


RE: Discrimination against solo travelers... don't forget... that when you pay for a sleeping accommodation you pay for the entire fare of that accommodation... which includes two - 2 - sets of meals. If someone else accompanies that accommodation they pay rail fare only. Get it? So why doesn't Amtrak 'get it' when a solo passenger with sole occupancy of sleeper accommodation... is denied the right to sit at a dining table in the dining car???

That's right. And technically such individual should have the right to get an extra salad or dessert. Not to be piggish... but that solo traveler is paying for it!


----------



## DetroitDave

moosejunky99 said:


> Food was amazing on the chief when i took it in 2019 before the covid... even got into FUL 40 min early..



Aye! It was very good just a few weeks back when I took the SWC. Tasty...nicely adorned tables with flowers...quite nice!

And in response to the varying dining experiences that I'm reading, on my recent trips: no coffee in sleeper car; no communal dining; parties seated together; they did _not_ force individuals to eat in their sleeper or discourage reserving a spot in the dining car (if anything, the opposite!); and they were spacing the occupancy of the tables a bit (pictures from my Travel Log). 

I am very upset to hear about single travelers not allowed in the dining car, along with the litany of inconsistencies.


----------



## jimdex

Dakota 400 said:


> I agree with you. The money that I pay for my accommodation is worth the same as any other passenger in the Sleeper whether there are 2/3/4/etc. in their party. This is blatant discrimination.
> 
> Why is such happening?


It looks like a capacity problem. I think this would be less of a problem if meal prices were separated from sleeping car fares. Right now, sleeper passengers are paying for dining car meals whether they want them or not, and that discourages them from skipping meals, bringing their own food, or seeking lighter fare in the cafe.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jimdex said:


> It looks like a capacity problem. I think this would be less of a problem if meal prices were separated from sleeping car fares. Right now, sleeper passengers are paying for dining car meals whether they want them or not, and that discourages them from skipping meals, bringing their own food, or seeking lighter fare in the cafe.



There shouldn’t be any capacity issues. It’s only sleeping car passengers allowed in the diner and many won’t want to eat in the diner anyways. 

Without the dorm cars I don’t think any trains have more sleeping car passengers than could be accommodated. Maybe the empire builder if all rooms were sold and all rooms wanted to eat in the diner? At that point you just reserve tables first come like the old parlor car days.


----------



## WaterLevel

20th Century Rider said:


> RE: Discrimination against solo travelers... don't forget... that when you pay for a sleeping accommodation you pay for the entire fare of that accommodation... which includes two - 2 - sets of meals. If someone else accompanies that accommodation they pay rail fare only.



Nope. Just priced the Cap Ltd WAS-CHI 11/15/2021. One person's fare is $53 coach, or $387 roomette. Two people, the fare is $106 coach, or $520 roomette.


----------



## Dakota 400

tim49424 said:


> Oddly enough, I’ve never felt any bias when traveling alone. Maybe I’m just lucky?



Nor have I felt any bias. If there is any "bias", it is in the prices that solos usually have to pay when booking a cruise. But, such a situation also exists when a solo books a sleeping car accommodation. As a solo traveler, one either learns to "deal with it" or not travel. 

If a LSA in a dining car restricts solos to dining in their accommodation and not in the dining car because they are a solo passenger, that is, as I said in another post, blatant discrimination.


----------



## pennyk

Dakota 400 said:


> Nor have I felt any bias. If there is any "bias", it is in the prices that solos usually have to pay when booking a cruise. But, such a situation also exists when a solo books a sleeping car accommodation. As a solo traveler, one either learns to "deal with it" or not travel.
> 
> If a LSA in a dining car restricts solos to dining in their accommodation and not in the dining car because they are a solo passenger, that is, as I said in another post, blatant discrimination.


I have not felt any bias either so far. However, if I am relegated to eating in my room on future trips, I will not be happy at all.


----------



## lordsigma

I highly doubt this is a policy - this was probably how one LSA on one train possibly chose how to deal with a shortage of reservation times. I can understand if everyone on board wants to eat in the diner - with no communal dining you may not be able to accommodate everyone and may have to do first come first serve for table seating - and then the LSA should rotate which car and which end of the car where they start taking reservations from. On the Auto Train right now its a bit tricky to get a table reservation for example. Whoever encountered that experience should report it to customer relations.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dakota 400 said:


> Nor have I felt any bias. If there is any "bias", it is in the prices that solos usually have to pay when booking a cruise. But, such a situation also exists when a solo books a sleeping car accommodation. As a solo traveler, one either learns to "deal with it" or not travel.


There are logistical issues any solo traveler deals with like paying more per person for taxis and accommodations or having to drag your clean luggage into a disgusting bathroom stall that are simply part of traveling alone in America. Then there are issues that seem to be unique to solo travel on Amtrak such as being told to move to another seat or table to make room for some phantom group that never appears. I've been _asked_ to change seats on aircraft but if I held my ground I kept my seat, whereas declining orders to move on Amtrak earns single travelers a one way trip off the train at the next crossing (according to Amstaff).


----------



## zephyr17

The main form of "bias" I encounter on Amtrak as a single traveler is being forced to pay for two meals as part of the sleeper accommodation charge.

When meals first became "complimentary" in the 1980s, the accommodation charges increased by pretty much the cost of two meals per meal period for the duration of the trip. I doubt that has changed.


----------



## bratkinson

nendee said:


> I ride the lake shore limited from Springfield to Chicago on Sunday - I have a roomette. I’ll keep you posted on dining.


If you haven't had contemporary dining yet, harking back to a TV commercial 30 years ago: "Try it! You'll like it!" I did, once.

As a resident in suburban Springfield, if the Lakeshore is in my plans, I buy both dinner and breakfast at the Subway in the refurb'ed Springfield station. I buy all meals beforehand on eastern LD trains.


----------



## jis

No Contemporary Dining anymore. That was the last generation of innovation.  The current generation is Flex Dining


----------



## PNW Pax

I just completed a journey on the Coast Starlight from Seattle to San Francisco this morning. I was pleased with my dining experiences. Singles and deuces were seated in one half the diner, one party per table; and larger parties were seated in the other half of the diner. Service was prompt and staff were cheerful at all meals. 

The food was mostly pretty good. The artisan grilled cheese sandwich at lunch was well prepared. The flank steak dinner was pretty good although a little more rare than I like. I was rushed for breakfast as our stop was coming up, so I wolfed my scrambled eggs, fried potatoes, and croissant. The cheese cake and carrot cake were very good.

Cloth napkins and table coverings and metal cutlery were only in place for dinner. Plastic plates and bowls, of course.


----------



## lordsigma

bratkinson said:


> If you haven't had contemporary dining yet, harking back to a TV commercial 30 years ago: "Try it! You'll like it!" I did, once.
> 
> As a resident in suburban Springfield, if the Lakeshore is in my plans, I buy both dinner and breakfast at the Subway in the refurb'ed Springfield station. I buy all meals beforehand on eastern LD trains.


I got a sandwich there recently.


----------



## Dakota 400

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've been _asked_ to change seats on aircraft but if I held my ground I kept my seat,



I have never experienced such a situation. If a booked an aisle seat--as I usually do--I would not willingly surrender that space.


----------



## PVD

The number of tables is less of a problem than lack of staff. If passengers eat in their rooms the meals are delivered by the SCA. Revisit in a few months when staffing is restored as new crew are hired and trained.


----------



## Winecliff Station

PVD said:


> The number of tables is less of a problem than lack of staff. If passengers eat in their rooms the meals are delivered by the SCA. Revisit in a few months when staffing is restored as new crew are hired and trained.


Unfortunately you run a risk when you choose to eat in your room of either getting the wrong meal or being forgotten altogether. Such was my experience this past holiday weekend on the LSL...westbound never got the dinner I ordered through the SCA at all, so when returning eastbound I went to the dining car to place my own order. I brought it to my room and realized after eating my salad and roll that I had the wrong entree. By the time I went back to the dining car they were out of the shrimp. Partially my own fault, I should have checked when the LSA handed me the bag but this mistake had never been made before. 

Rumor was about a month ago among dining staff that traditional dining was supposed to return to the LSL in the fall....I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Winecliff Station said:


> Unfortunately you run a risk when you choose to eat in your room of either getting the wrong meal or being forgotten altogether. Such was my experience this past holiday weekend on the LSL...westbound never got the dinner I ordered through the SCA at all, so when returning eastbound I went to the dining car to place my own order. I brought it to my room and realized after eating my salad and roll that I had the wrong entree. By the time I went back to the dining car they were out of the shrimp. Partially my own fault, I should have checked when the LSA handed me the bag but this mistake had never been made before.
> 
> Rumor was about a month ago among dining staff that traditional dining was supposed to return to the LSL in the fall....I'll believe it when I see it.


It's all about the staff, and staffing. If you get an attendant that enjoys the job and pleasing customers that makes all the difference... especially when they don't have much to work with -- i.e. flex menu.


----------



## Winecliff Station

20th Century Rider said:


> It's all about the staff, and staffing. If you get an attendant that enjoys the job and pleasing customers that makes all the difference... especially when they don't have much to work with -- i.e. flex menu.



I got the feeling it was less about lack of effort or job enjoyment and more about inexperience, which is why I didn't give them a hard time about it. It was also a shortened trip because the train started in Albany rather than NYP due to Ida, plus the westbound left Albany an hour late.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Winecliff Station said:


> I got the feeling it was less about lack of effort or job enjoyment and more about inexperience, which is why I didn't give them a hard time about it. It was also a shortened trip because the train started in Albany rather than NYP due to Ida, plus the westbound left Albany an hour late.


When stuff like that happens to me on a train voyage, I just cling to the window and look out... because that's the best part of the trip. As for welded rails, oh how I miss the clickty clack of the old fashioned track!


----------



## desertflyer

We just got back from a trip on the Coast Starlight OKJ - LAX round trip. Crews seemed happy to have the diner back. I took pictures of the food for all you fellow nerds. I'm hope this is the right thread to post this in, and sorry for splitting it up but there is a 10 image limit per post.

*Breakfast 9/7/21 train 11*
Here is the menu front and back.














We both had scrambled eggs with cheese and a side of chicken sausage. Served on a white placemat with all plasticware. Pretty decent, I'd probably get it without cheese in the future.

*Lunch 9/7/21 train 11*




The Artisan Grilled Cheese. Comes with Terra chips and slaw. The slaw was sweet, how I like it. The sandwich was a little burned in one spot and kind of greasy, it was also really cold in one spot. I think that's because of the way it's reheated. Overall, fine.





The Cesar Salad. Dressing is already mixed in. You can add chicken as an option, my partner didn't. Also notice the new flavored seltzer water option, which she liked.

No tablecloth for lunch, just white tablemats and all plasticware like breakfast.





We got cheesecake to go and they asked if we'd like it with optional strawberry drizzle, fresh strawberries, and whip cream. It's was enjoyable, actually the strawberries were our favorite part. Took a bite before we could grab a picture lol.


----------



## desertflyer

*Dinner 9/7/21 train 11*
This was the first time I've had the new "three course dinner." There were finally tablecloths and actual silverware, but plates were still plastic. Complimentary drinks were a nice touch. Wine was served in an actual glass, while beer was still served in plastic.





They had real flowers on the table for all meals, but I didn't get a picture until dinner.





We both go the lobster crab cake to start, it was really tasty and not dry at all. Sauce was very slightly spicy. This ended up being one of my favorite dishes.





My partner got the salmon. The fish itself was a bit dry, but the flavors were good, especially the sauce it's served with so she was happy enough with it. Not pictured - she got the Rose for her drink and was surprised that it was decent, she's got a good wine palate, so that was good to hear.





The Pesto Tortellini. I got it without chicken. I was really happy. I don't think the parmesan cheese was fresh grated as it had very little flavor, but overall satisfying. I'd get it again.





Carrot Cake was really good, in my opinion. The caramel drizzle was slightly salty which I liked. Whatever they're doing for their whip cream is really good, it's not too cold and seems like they make it on the train (not sure that they do).





Flourless Chocolate Torte. Really dense, great flavor. We agreed that this one is probably best to get if we're sharing since it's enough for two. I liked it, not sure I'd always be in the mood for it.


----------



## desertflyer

*Lunch 9/10/21 train 14*
No tablecloths again for lunch, but the placemats were branded and we had actual silverware and cloth napkins





Savory Vegan Chili. We both got this and opted for it to be served in a baked potato. You have the option of scallions, cheddar cheese, bacon, and sour cream comes in a squeeze packed on the side. The chili was good, maybe a bit bland. It would have been easier to eat on a plate than in a bowl. Overall I'd get it again.

We paid extra for wine with lunch and I was surprised that the cab sav was better than I thought it'd be. Good job on the wine selection, Amtrak!

*Dinner 9/10/21 train 14*
Table cloth, actual silverware, cloth napkins but plastic plates. They still used placemats over the tablecloth, which I understand but don't prefer.










We both got the mixed greens salad to start. No choice of dressing, just Newman's Own vinaigrette. I really liked the mild brie cheese that came on it. Probably too many tomatoes and carrots, but it was still a nice starter. This time the first course came with a warm roll, which we didn't get on the southbound trip.





Pan Roasted Chicken. She said it was satisfying. Still a little dry probably because of reheating, but the sauce was nice.





The steak. I got it cooked medium well. Although I don't eat red meat much anymore, it was a satisfying meal although I might have liked mashed potatoes or rice as a side option since I had a potato at lunch. The little carrots were tasty, but way too many green beans. They had A1 sauces for those who like it.





We both decided to get cheesecake. There wasn't the option of fresh fruit like southbound and the presentation was different. We enjoyed it.

Hope you all found this interesting.


----------



## OBS

Great reporting and pictures! Thanks for posting!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thanks so much! This is the most comprehensive report on the new menu items that I have seen. Looks like we are back to a decent standard of dining car service and the desserts haven’t looked that good in several years!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

desertflyer said:


> *Lunch 9/10/21 train 14*
> No tablecloths again for lunch, but the placemats were branded and we had actual silverware and cloth napkins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Savory Vegan Chili. We both got this and opted for it to be served in a baked potato. You have the option of scallions, cheddar cheese, bacon, and sour cream comes in a squeeze packed on the side. The chili was good, maybe a bit bland. It would have been easier to eat on a plate than in a bowl. Overall I'd get it again.
> 
> We paid extra for wine with lunch and I was surprised that the cab sav was better than I thought it'd be. Good job on the wine selection, Amtrak!
> 
> *Dinner 9/10/21 train 14*
> Table cloth, actual silverware, cloth napkins but plastic plates. They still used placemats over the tablecloth, which I understand but don't prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We both got the mixed greens salad to start. No choice of dressing, just Newman's Own vinaigrette. I really liked the mild brie cheese that came on it. Probably too many tomatoes and carrots, but it was still a nice starter. This time the first course came with a warm roll, which we didn't get on the southbound trip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pan Roasted Chicken. She said it was satisfying. Still a little dry probably because of reheating, but the sauce was nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The steak. I got it cooked medium well. Although I don't eat red meat much anymore, it was a satisfying meal although I might have liked mashed potatoes or rice as a side option since I had a potato at lunch. The little carrots were tasty, but way too many green beans. They had A1 sauces for those who like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We both decided to cheesecake. There wasn't the option of fresh fruit like southbound and the presentation was different. We enjoyed it.
> 
> Hope you all found this interesting.


Thank you for an excellent post. Looking forward to my trip in October and mouth is watering!

What I can't understand is the brutal contrast between these delightful meals and the awful flex stuff still being dished out. My route will take me EUG to LAX and then to Springfield IL on the TE... the 2nd day meals go from really nice to :-( ///


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Thank you for an excellent post. Looking forward to my trip in October and mouth is watering!
> 
> What I can't understand is the brutal contrast between these delightful meals and the awful flex stuff still being dished out. My route will take me EUG to LAX and then to Springfield IL on the TE... the 2nd day meals go from really nice to :-( ///


The new traditional dining and flex dining are about as opposite as you can get. I just got off the Empire Builder in Seattle and enjoyed the food. I will be on the CONO and Crescent in November. Sadly,flex dining will still be in effect.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Sidney said:


> The new traditional dining and flex dining are about as opposite as you can get. I just got off the Empire Builder in Seattle and enjoyed the food. I will be on the CONO and Crescent in November. Sadly,flex dining will still be in effect.



For those of us living in the northeast, we have to go across the entire country to experience traditional dining. I had the good fortune in September 2019 to enjoy the last traditional dinner on the Silver Meteor. Two weeks later on the return trip it was flex dining, and the passengers who weren’t aware of the change had a nasty surprise. One passenger was a pharmacist, and she somehow was able to look at the nutrition information. Apparently the sodium content is off the charts….and if you’re a vegetarian like me, you have to eat the same meal twice or cheat by getting shrimp, though when I tried that they screwed up my meal and gave me chicken which I won’t eat. Why they won’t give you a voucher for the cafe car as an option is beyond me.


----------



## Rasputin

Winecliff Station said:


> Why they won’t give you a voucher for the cafe car as an option is beyond me.


Any reasonable company which has priorities of good customer service and success would be able to resolve this issue in a prompt and satisfactory manner. 

Of course I understand from some friends that it does get resolved on some trains and that as sleeping car passengers they have been allowed to order from the cafe menu. As usual on Amtrak you just have to have the good luck of having the right combination of employees on board who are willing to solve the customer's request.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Rasputin said:


> Any reasonable company which has priorities of good customer service and success would be able to resolve this issue in a prompt and satisfactory manner.
> 
> Of course I understand from some friends that it does get resolved on some trains and that as sleeping car passengers they have been allowed to order from the cafe menu. As usual on Amtrak you just have to have the good luck of having the right combination of employees on board who are willing to solve the customer's request.



Good to know… I’ve only asked once and it was preCovid so it never crossed my mind to ask again lol.


----------



## cassie225

On my trip to Atlanta going on the Crescent the cafe car person was very nice said I could get what I wanted and it was included in my sleeper price, coming back that attendant said nope!!! So it must depend on who is behind the counter


----------



## hlcteacher

this **** me off....as a coach traveler, i would gladly pay for these meals and resent the fact that i do not have the option...it all looks great


----------



## Sidney

cassie225 said:


> On my trip to Atlanta going on the Crescent the cafe car person was very nice said I could get what I wanted and it was included in my sleeper price, coming back that attendant said nope!!! So it must depend on who is behind the counter


Why can't Amtrak have uniform rules systemwide? Is it so difficult? Apparently,it is.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

cassie225 said:


> On my trip to Atlanta going on the Crescent the cafe car person was very nice said I could get what I wanted and it was included in my sleeper price, coming back that attendant said nope!!! So it must depend on who is behind the counter


That's nasty! The only saving grace is - when they withhold the food you paid for, you withhold the tip!


----------



## me_little_me

Sidney said:


> Why can't Amtrak have uniform rules systemwide? Is it so difficult? Apparently,it is.


They do. They just don't enforce them. Amtrak would rather give you a voucher when you complain that your SCA or the Diner or cafe attendant did or did not do something they were supposed to than actually fix the problem.

Amtrak's problem is, and has always been, a management problem. The employees get away with violating or ignoring the rules/standards because management doesn't care enough to enforce them and paying off a few complainers with someone else's money is easier than doing the job for which managers were paid.


----------



## cassie225

20th Century Rider said:


> That's nasty! The only saving grace is - when they withhold the food you paid for, you withhold the tip!


True lol


----------



## joelkfla

Winecliff Station said:


> For those of us living in the northeast, we have to go across the entire country to experience traditional dining.


We Floridians have to travel north for a day and a night, and _then _travel cross country! Hopefully the rumors of some form of traditional dining returning to Silver Service this fall are true.


----------



## fdaley

desertflyer said:


> We just got back from a trip on the Coast Starlight OKJ - LAX round trip. Crews seemed happy to have the diner back. I took pictures of the food for all you fellow nerds. I'm hope this is the right thread to post this in, and sorry for splitting it up but there is a 10 image limit per post.
> 
> *Breakfast 9/7/21 train 11*
> Here is the menu front and back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We both had scrambled eggs with cheese and a side of chicken sausage. Served on a white placemat with all plasticware. Pretty decent, I'd probably get it without cheese in the future.
> 
> *Lunch 9/7/21 train 11*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Artisan Grilled Cheese. Comes with Terra chips and slaw. The slaw was sweet, how I like it. The sandwich was a little burned in one spot and kind of greasy, it was also really cold in one spot. I think that's because of the way it's reheated. Overall, fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Cesar Salad. Dressing is already mixed in. You can add chicken as an option, my partner didn't. Also notice the new flavored seltzer water option, which she liked.
> 
> No tablecloth for lunch, just white tablemats and all plasticware like breakfast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We got cheesecake to go and they asked if we'd like it with optional strawberry drizzle, fresh strawberries, and whip cream. It's was enjoyable, actually the strawberries were our favorite part. Took a bite before we could grab a picture lol.



Thank you for this detailed review and the many photos. It certainly looks and sounds like the dining service west of Chicago (except for the Eagle) has returned to the level I would want to try and could recommend to others. And in some ways it appears better than pre-pandemic.

We are discussing a mid-winter family train trip to California, so this does encourage us. The challenge, of course, is how to get from the Northeast to Chicago; there is no way I would take the Lake Shore or any of the eastern sleeper trains on an overnight trip in their current form.


----------



## fdaley

Winecliff Station said:


> Why they won’t give you a voucher for the cafe car as an option is beyond me.



On the way back from Maine in June, we booked the accessible bedroom on the Boston section of the Lake Shore from Boston to Albany. No flexible meals were offered; instead, we were told to just order whatever we wanted from the cafe and tell the attendant there that we were in the sleeper. So apparently it's possible to give sleeper passengers complimentary food from the cafe when Amtrak (or perhaps the particular crew) wants to do it that way.


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> On the way back from Maine in June, we booked the accessible bedroom on the Boston section of the Lake Shore from Boston to Albany. No flexible meals were offered; instead, we were told to just order whatever we wanted from the cafe and tell the attendant there that we were in the sleeper. So apparently it's possible to give sleeper passengers complimentary food from the cafe when Amtrak (or perhaps the particular crew) wants to do it that way.


That’s what they do for the lunch meal between Boston and Albany. Springfield is the furthest west station that’s offered this as I got it when I rode Springfield to the west coast back in June. Pittsfield boarding passengers do not receive this. Dinner after Albany is a flexible dining meal in the viewliner 2 diner. This is not offered for other meals. I’d use a voucher for the lunch meal on other trains but I Personally prefer the flexible dining meal for dinners. The flexible meals are mediocre in my opinion but The cafe car is not really anything to write home about either especially with the current reduced pandemic menu.


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> That’s what they do for the lunch meal between Boston and Albany. Springfield is the furthest west station that’s offered this as I got it when I rode Springfield to the west coast back in June. Pittsfield boarding passengers do not receive this. Dinner after Albany is a flexible dining meal in the viewliner 2 diner. This is not offered for other meals. I’d use a voucher for the lunch meal on other trains but I Personally prefer the flexible dining meal for dinners. The flexible meals are mediocre in my opinion but The cafe car is not really anything to write home about either especially with the current reduced pandemic menu.



It's just interesting that they've chosen to do it this way for Springfield and east on this one train, even though on most runs Amtrak seems strictly opposed to allowing sleeper passengers complimentary items from the cafe. 

The flex breakfast to me is truly awful and doesn't even qualify as breakfast. I could manage better with stuff from the cafe, though that's not a great option either. For dinner, I don't find either option acceptable. So if we go out west in February, we'll probably just drive from upstate New York to Michigan or South Bend -- somewhere where we can stay over and get a morning train into Chicago. I'm just not sure we're up for that much of a car trip. If we decide not to go, the lousy options east of Chicago will be why.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> The flex breakfast to me is truly awful and doesn't even qualify as breakfast.



The flex breakfast was my favorite flex meal. I could at least eat Cheerios, yogurt, and a piece of fruit and feel ok about that life decision. The plastic salt filled TV dinners? No thanks!


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> The flex breakfast was my favorite flex meal. I could at least eat Cheerios, yogurt, and a piece of fruit and feel ok about that life decision. The plastic salt filled TV dinners? No thanks!



I'm with you on the "plastic salt filled TV dinners." The breakfast offerings are probably healthier, if you don't eat the Jimmy Dean hockey puck. But with the other breakfast offerings, I find that I'm hungry about an hour later.


----------



## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Why can't Amtrak have uniform rules systemwide? Is it so difficult? Apparently,it is.


They do have uniform rules. They wrote them down and published them. Isn't that good enough?

They just don't have any mechanism to monitor and enforce them.


----------



## Rasputin

cassie225 said:


> On my trip to Atlanta going on the Crescent the cafe car person was very nice said I could get what I wanted and it was included in my sleeper price, coming back that attendant said nope!!! So it must depend on who is behind the counter


I recall one round trip a few years ago on the Boston - Albany stub train which operated during the Albany yard reconstruction. If you were travelling by sleeper on 48/49 west of Albany you were entitled to a meal from the cafe car of the stub train. On my trip on the westbound stub train, I was entitled to a sandwich, a beverage and a bag of chips. Eastbound the entitlement was the sandwich and beverage but no chips.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> The flex breakfast was my favorite flex meal. I could at least eat Cheerios, yogurt, and a piece of fruit and feel ok about that life decision. The plastic salt filled TV dinners? No thanks!


Me too, I usually get the oatmeal.


----------



## Dakota 400

desertflyer said:


> The Artisan Grilled Cheese. Comes with Terra chips and slaw. The slaw was sweet, how I like it. The sandwich was a little burned in one spot and kind of greasy, it was also really cold in one spot. I think that's because of the way it's reheated. Overall, fine.



I am impressed with the thickness of this sandwich. It would need to be thoroughly--and carefully--heated for it to be warm/hot throughout. It really does look good.


----------



## Winecliff Station

joelkfla said:


> We Floridians have to travel north for a day and a night, and _then _travel cross country! Hopefully the rumors of some form of traditional dining returning to Silver Service this fall are true.



I'm sorry, I keep forgetting there is no connection from Florida to New Orleans even though it has been what, over 15 years? As for Silver traditional dining, I heard that same rumor, about Silvers and LSL, but I have become a bit of a cynic about all things Amtrak so I am not counting on it. If it does happen it will be a nice surprise.


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> It's just interesting that they've chosen to do it this way for Springfield and east on this one train, even though on most runs Amtrak seems strictly opposed to allowing sleeper passengers complimentary items from the cafe.
> 
> The flex breakfast to me is truly awful and doesn't even qualify as breakfast. I could manage better with stuff from the cafe, though that's not a great option either. For dinner, I don't find either option acceptable. So if we go out west in February, we'll probably just drive from upstate New York to Michigan or South Bend -- somewhere where we can stay over and get a morning train into Chicago. I'm just not sure we're up for that much of a car trip. If we decide not to go, the lousy options east of Chicago will be why.


It’s probably a matter of not wanting stuff to sell out. There really isn’t anything different in the cafe for breakfast except maybe a jimmy dean breakfast bowl and possibly a bagel - a lot of the flex breakfast stuff is the same offered in the cafe such as the breakfast sandwich and muffins.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> I'm with you on the "plastic salt filled TV dinners." The breakfast offerings are probably healthier, if you don't eat the Jimmy Dean hockey puck. But with the other breakfast offerings, I find that I'm hungry about an hour later.


Next month I will be in 'Flex Meals Fantasy Land' for a good portion of an October Amtrak sojourn and intend to order kosher... will also bring along some peanut butter, a grainy bread... and try to survive. Another strategy when walking around a town is to pick up a few of those complete salad kits. But I won't hesitate to turn away those highly processed carcinogenic casseroles and the endless brownies... if the kosher meals don't come through. IMHO that stuff just ain't good for you!


----------



## Winecliff Station

20th Century Rider said:


> and the endless brownies...


 OMG I love the blondies.... sometimes it is the only thing in the entire meal worth eating.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Winecliff Station said:


> OMG I love the blondies.... sometimes it is the only thing in the entire meal worth eating.


I love them too for the first and maybe second meals... but anything can become tiring after a while... will be riding the Crescent down to NOL from NYP, then back up to CHI on the CONO. I think that's about 4 or 5 casserole lunches and dinners and two breakfasts... and a lot of sitting. BTW - two more rides to cross off the bucket list with a lot of interesting scenery


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> It’s probably a matter of not wanting stuff to sell out. There really isn’t anything different in the cafe for breakfast except maybe a jimmy dean breakfast bowl and possibly a bagel - a lot of the flex breakfast stuff is the same offered in the cafe such as the breakfast sandwich and muffins.



At least before the pandemic, there was a much better quality breakfast sandwich than the Jimmy Dean available in the NEC cafe cars, but it wasn't offered to sleeper passengers as a flex breakfast item in the "sleeper lounge" (i.e. former dining) cars. I think I had one of these sandwiches on an Acela trip this summer too.


----------



## Sidney

Winecliff Station said:


> OMG I love the blondies.... sometimes it is the only thing in the entire meal worth eating.


As far as flex meals go,the best part is the roll(if it is warmed up)


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> As far as flex meals go,the best part is the roll(if it is warmed up)


Ditto!


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> At least before the pandemic, there was a much better quality breakfast sandwich than the Jimmy Dean available in the NEC cafe cars, but it wasn't offered to sleeper passengers as a flex breakfast item in the "sleeper lounge" (i.e. former dining) cars. I think I had one of these sandwiches on an Acela trip this summer too.


There isn’t now. It’s the jimmy dean. NEC cafe car right now has jimmy dean and packaged blueberry muffin - the exact same as flexible dining and national cafe car. Also all the “fresh” items were axed in the pandemic (the deli sandwiches and salads.) NEC cafe car is basically jimmy dean, blueberry muffin, oven pride burger, Hebrew national hot dog, personal pizza, and the snack items - national cafe has a few more items like breakfast bowl, bagel, donut holes, cup of noodles, chicken wings, and Mac and cheese.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> The flex breakfast was my favorite flex meal. I could at least eat Cheerios, yogurt, and a piece of fruit and feel ok about that life decision. The plastic salt filled TV dinners? No thanks!


It probably qualifies as a favorite because of our love of sugar. The only thing that is not sugar is the packaging used for the breakfast. When I last traveled, they didn't even have oatmeal w/o sugar which turns what would be a healthy product into a bad one. The Cheerios are at least somewhat low in sugar but flavored yogurt is not. The fruit has better sugars than the rest and fiber but that works only as a complement to food with proteins and good fats. I guess the omelet is somewhat healthy except for its rubbery taste.


----------



## nendee

So I’m on the LSL right now, just finished overnight on way to chicago (just passed Toledo). As usual, I love it! The sleep was great, the attendant awesome. I know what I was getting into with flex dining so my expectations were met fine. My biggest complaint is no WiFi. It shows me connecting to the Amtrak WiFi - but it never works at all hours. Oh well. Regardless, already planning my next overnight trip!


----------



## TEREB

crescent-zephyr said:


> The flex breakfast was my favorite flex meal. I could at least eat Cheerios, yogurt, and a piece of fruit and feel ok about that life decision. The plastic salt filled TV dinners? No thanks!


 We were not offered fruit on our June northbound Meteor trip. Is that an option now?


----------



## pennyk

TEREB said:


> We were not offered fruit on our June northbound Meteor trip. Is that an option now?


Pre-covid, the Meteor offered bananas for breakfast but I believed they stopped. I assume because of Covid.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

pennyk said:


> Pre-covid, the Meteor offered bananas for breakfast but I believed they stopped. I assume because of Covid.


I've yet to see anything to purports to show that the pandemic negatively impacts or is transmitted by fruits and vegetables. If anything we should probably be eating more fresh perishables to improve our baseline health to help fight off infections. I wonder how money much was saved by abandoning fruit and veggies.


----------



## pennyk

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've yet to see anything to purports to show that the pandemic negatively impacts or is transmitted by fruits and vegetables. If anything we should probably be eating more fresh perishables to improve our baseline health to help fight off infections. I wonder how money much was saved by abandoning fruit and veggies.


The format of the breakfast was changed. Pre-covid, it was self serve, other than the breakfast sandwich. Post covid, the LSA delivered the food. I think the change of format eliminated the bananas (which was a result of covid - thus my assumption).


----------



## Cal

nendee said:


> My biggest complaint is no WiFi. It shows me connecting to the Amtrak WiFi - but it never works at all hours


That's been my experience with Amtrak Wifi on the Surfliner, Acela, NER, and Cardinal


----------



## zephyr17

nendee said:


> My biggest complaint is no WiFi. It shows me connecting to the Amtrak WiFi - but it never works at all hours.


Amtrak wifi has sucked on every train I've ever tried it on, Cascades, Maple Leaf, NE Regional.

Save yourself a lot of frustration and use your cellphone data plan and tether if you have another device you want to use. It is a lot faster than Amtrak wifi when you are even able to connect to the wifi.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> Save yourself a lot of frustration and use your cellphone data plan and tether if you have another device you want to use. It is a lot faster than Amtrak wifi when you are even able to connect to the wifi.



Yes! This has saved me so much frustration in my travels!


----------



## Danib62

I don’t understand why buses and trains all push wifi these days as some great amenity when all it is is a shared cellular signal as opposed to the one in your pocket that you have all to yourself.

I guess back when people were on plans with data caps it was a nice perk but almost everyone has unlimited plans these days.


----------



## me_little_me

TEREB said:


> We were not offered fruit on our June northbound Meteor trip. Is that an option now?


In the beginning of flex, packaged fresh fruit was offered in a plastic container. Cut up pieces of fruit ala a fruit salad. Don't know if it continued after Covid started.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> In the beginning of flex, packaged fresh fruit was offered in a plastic container. Cut up pieces of fruit ala a fruit salad. Don't know if it continued after Covid started.



Yes. At the beginning of flex I could get a container of fruit from the LSA and also help myself to fresh fruit that was out by the tea.


----------



## Cal

Danib62 said:


> I don’t understand why buses and trains all push wifi these days as some great amenity when all it is is a shared cellular signal as opposed to the one in your pocket that you have all to yourself.
> 
> I guess back when people were on plans with data caps it was a nice perk but almost everyone has unlimited plans these days.


If it worked it would be great as you would be able to use it all the time when data isn't reliable.


----------



## joelkfla

Danib62 said:


> I don’t understand why buses and trains all push wifi these days as some great amenity when all it is is a shared cellular signal as opposed to the one in your pocket that you have all to yourself.
> 
> I guess back when people were on plans with data caps it was a nice perk but almost everyone has unlimited plans these days.


I don't think almost everyone has unlimited data. Maybe younger folk do. I don't see the point in paying $60 or more per month for unlimited data on a major carrier, when a limited plan on a reseller (Consumer Cellular) at $25 a month meets my needs. But this has nothing to do with Amtrak Dining.


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> I don't think almost everyone has unlimited data. Maybe younger folk do. I don't see the point in paying $60 or more per month for unlimited data on a major carrier, when a limited plan on a reseller (Consumer Cellular) at $25 a month meets my needs. But this has nothing to do with Amtrak Dining.


I just turned 66 and have 2 lines of unlimited for $60/mo with T-Mobile on my senior plan.

And I use mobile data like crazy.

I don't think its a general age thing. Younger people grew up with it. I didn't grow up with it, but I sure as heck like it and use it.

Makes up a little bit for not getting the flying cars we thought we'd have by now.


----------



## Winecliff Station

zephyr17 said:


> Makes up a little bit for not getting the flying cars we thought we'd have by now.



Really! Where are the flying cars and the cryogenic head transplants and commercial trips to space or the moon?


----------



## TEREB

pennyk said:


> The format of the breakfast was changed. Pre-covid, it was self serve, other than the breakfast sandwich. Post covid, the LSA delivered the food. I think the change of format eliminated the bananas (which was a result of covid - thus my assumption).


. This is from our southbound Meteor, October 2019. The fruit cup was delivered, covered, with our breakfast.
I don’t see the difference between a covered salad delivered with our June 2021 northbound Meteor and a covered cup of fruit. 
Oh yes I do. The salad was covered in foil whereas the fruit had a fitted lid. 
I think they could have continued it after COVID. But I may be missing something. $$


----------



## PVD

Maybe I'm just lucky, but my experiences with WiFi in the NorthEast have been generally good.


----------



## Dustyroad

I haven't ridden on Amtrak for a couple years. Do we still have to be in our bedroom to make our dinner time reservation? I know it used to be you could not be in the obsersvation car when they came around to take our time. Thanks for any help. We will be on the Southwest Chief.


----------



## cassie225

Winecliff Station said:


> Really! Where are the flying cars and the cryogenic head transplants and commercial trips to space or the moon?


They do have cars that drive themselves, maybe I’m just old fashioned but I like my hands on the steering wheel lol


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dustyroad said:


> I haven't ridden on Amtrak for a couple years. Do we still have to be in our bedroom to make our dinner time reservation? I know it used to be you could not be in the obsersvation car when they came around to take our time. Thanks for any help. We will be on the Southwest Chief.



I can’t speak from current experience but that was never an Amtrak rule, I would often make dining car reservations when in the lounge. That was just an LSA making up a rule.


----------



## PVD

They will usually tell you to stay in your room and give them a chance to take your resv, otherwise there was no guaranatee they would get to you. I always got sleepers first, then we will hit the lounge, but back then coach passengers could eat in the diner, and if times were open they could be filled by coach passengers if you didn;t speak up. I've never had anyone say they wouldn't take one outside of the sleeper, but I have had them say it could affect your time. That makes much more sense.


----------



## PNW Pax

Dustyroad said:


> I haven't ridden on Amtrak for a couple years. Do we still have to be in our bedroom to make our dinner time reservation? I know it used to be you could not be in the obsersvation car when they came around to take our time. Thanks for any help. We will be on the Southwest Chief.


Last week the dining car steward (or whatever they are called now) on the Coast Starlight #11 went through the sleeping cars first and then took meal reservations in the lounge car. He first announced that only sleeping car passengers were eligible to eat in the dining car.


----------



## Sauve850

Cal said:


> That's been my experience with Amtrak Wifi on the Surfliner, Acela, NER, and Cardinal


I dont need or have a lot of interest in Wifi on a train but I did decide to test it off and on during my eastbound Cardinal trip recently. It worked fairly well on this particular trip in my roomette and dining car during my dinner and also at breakfast.


----------



## lordsigma

Dustyroad said:


> I haven't ridden on Amtrak for a couple years. Do we still have to be in our bedroom to make our dinner time reservation? I know it used to be you could not be in the obsersvation car when they came around to take our time. Thanks for any help. We will be on the Southwest Chief.


When I was on the Chief in June the LSA - Diner said to come see him in the diner if we weren’t in our room before he started going around - which I did to get my reservation.


----------



## Cal

Dustyroad said:


> I haven't ridden on Amtrak for a couple years. Do we still have to be in our bedroom to make our dinner time reservation? I know it used to be you could not be in the obsersvation car when they came around to take our time. Thanks for any help. We will be on the Southwest Chief.


I was going to say that it depends on the crew, but it seems like the do take reservations if you weren't in your room.


----------



## nendee

Concerning WiFi - the LSL certainly had zero WiFi the entire trip. Of course, cell reception was awful through the obsolete parts of the trip - so no hot spot potential either. I just wanted to watch my Bears on Sunday night football before bed!
Do you know if their WiFi is satellite based? It’s possible they just need to restart their “receiver” more frequently. And it’s important. While the ideal answer is “just put down the phone and enjoy your ride” - it justifies my overnight more when I can stay connected to work and family via connection when needed.


----------



## zephyr17

nendee said:


> Concerning WiFi - the LSL certainly had zero WiFi the entire trip. Of course, cell reception was awful through the obsolete parts of the trip - so no hot spot potential either. I just wanted to watch my Bears on Sunday night football before bed!
> Do you know if their WiFi is satellite based? It’s possible they just need to restart their “receiver” more frequently. And it’s important. While the ideal answer is “just put down the phone and enjoy your ride” - it justifies my overnight more when I can stay connected to work and family via connection when needed.


No, Amtrak's wifi is terrestrial. It depends on cell towers.


----------



## nendee

zephyr17 said:


> No, Amtrak's wifi is terrestrial. It depends on cell towers.



Ah. So same problem even if it did work - subject to same barren area dead zones as a hot spot. Good to know.


----------



## Dustyroad

Cal said:


> I was going to say that it depends on the crew, but it seems like the do take reservations if you weren't in your room.


Thanks Cal. We were always afraid to leave our room because we might miss getting the time we wanted to eat. We will ask our room steward when we board. We are just 2 weeks away from the trip and getting excited.


----------



## Asher

Those meal photos from the Desert flyer are going to give Amtrak reason to raise prices.


----------



## zephyr17

Going through the train to get reservations and taking the lounge car last is the way they've done it ever since I can remember on every train I've ever been on. The main variation is whether they require reservations for lunch or not. And they always make the methodology clear when they make the "we're taking reservations for (lunch/dinner)" announcement.

I stay in my room with the door open after they make the announcement that they are taking reservations.

If you run into the person taking the reservations, often the LSA but sometimes they delegate it, when moving through the train they'll usually take a reservation if you ask them to.

Your SCA can't give a you reservation directly himself, since he isn't maintaining the running count of available seats for each sitting. He can ask the person taking the reservation on your behalf, though.


----------



## OBS

zephyr17 said:


> Going through the train to get reservations and taking the lounge car last is the way they've done it ever since I can remember on every train I've ever been on. The main variation is whether they require reservations for lunch or not. And they always make the methodology clear when they make the "we're taking reservations for (lunch/dinner)" announcement.
> 
> I stay in my room with the door open after they make the announcement that they are taking reservations.
> 
> If you run into the person taking the reservations, often the LSA but sometimes they delegate it, when moving through the train they'll usually take a reservation if you ask them to.
> 
> Your SCA can't give a you reservation directly himself, since he isn't maintaining the running count of available seats for each sitting. He can ask the person taking the reservation on your behalf, though.


This sums it up nicely....


----------



## Dustyroad

Thanks so much zephyr17 and OBS. It's a big help.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

Dustyroad said:


> Thanks Cal. We were always afraid to leave our room because we might miss getting the time we wanted to eat. We will ask our room steward when we board. We are just 2 weeks away from the trip and getting excited.


Same here. Two weeks until the Empire Builder , segment one of three!!!


----------



## Cal

OBS said:


> This sums it up nicely....


Yep, @zephyr17 explains things well IMO.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

OBS said:


> This sums it up nicely....


His post certainly matches my experiences. One thing new passengers may not realize is that just because an LSA only gives you options A, B, or C does not always mean no other times are available. I think they narrow it down to avoid delays while hesitant people overthink it but when none of the times worked I was always able to get a fourth or fifth option. My experiences are from pre-pandemic traditional dining so I'm not sure how things have changed since then.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

On our recent trip on the Southwest Chief the LSA decided to schedule lunch and dinner just as we stopped at La Junta and everybody had piled out of the train to get some fresh air. So she went through the sleepers and hardly anyone was there. When we got back we all had to troop down to the diner to make our reservations. Also didn't help that the PA announcements from the diner were almost inaudible. Probably not her fault but some common sense in not trying to do reservations during a fresh air / smoke break stop would help. 

In general though I have to say that our experience with the new traditional dining was good and like night and day compared with the flex dining on the Lake Shore Limited. Not that the LSL staff weren't trying but it is hard given what they have to work with.


----------



## Rasputin

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Probably not her fault but some common sense in not trying to do reservations during a fresh air / smoke break stop would help.


Common sense is not one of Amtrak's strengths. I am not sure that it is taught at Amtrak school.


----------



## Sidney

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> On our recent trip on the Southwest Chief the LSA decided to schedule lunch and dinner just as we stopped at La Junta and everybody had piled out of the train to get some fresh air. So she went through the sleepers and hardly anyone was there. When we got back we all had to troop down to the diner to make our reservations. Also didn't help that the PA announcements from the diner were almost inaudible. Probably not her fault but some common sense in not trying to do reservations during a fresh air / smoke break stop would help.
> 
> In general though I have to say that our experience with the new traditional dining was good and like night and day compared with the flex dining on the Lake Shore Limited. Not that the LSL staff weren't trying but it is hard given what they have to work with.


i've had that happen too. Generally,the LSA will take reservations after a fresh air stop. Maybe she(he)didn't know any better. I always take advantage of those stops and I'm sure most people do.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Sidney said:


> i've had that happen too. Generally,the LSA will take reservations after a fresh air stop. Maybe she(he)didn't know any better. I always take advantage of those stops and I'm sure most people do.



Some choose to do things at THEIR convenience, not their passengers'.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> Some choose to do things at THEIR conveneince, not their passengers'.


As many on the forum have observed... the levels of competence and attitude vary greatly; always a toss up RE what kind of service one gets.


----------



## MainerTrainer

We just got home from our “Triangle Train Trip” which was Chicago-Denver-San Francisco-Seattle-Glacier NP-Chicago. We found the food to be good to excellent on all the trains. The steak at dinner in particular was excellent.
The service was good to very good, although sometimes just shy of slow; I’ll call it leisurely.

Breakfast and lunch were always first come/first served with a wait list. Dinner was reserved and they announced when they’d be coming through the sleepersto take reservations. Dinner was with white linen tablecloth, all meals with fresh flowers. Minor requests for changes, like no whipped cream on the French toast, were no problem.

We were very satisfied with the dining experience. In fact, the whole trip was great except for spending the night in Emeryville waiting for the Coast Starlight that was eight hours late, then ended up 13 hours late into Seattle. Ah well, we lived and now it’s a good story. The scenery on much of the ride was spectacular!

Pictured is French toast (with the whipped cream) and the steaks.


----------



## Sidney

MainerTrainer said:


> We just got home from our “Triangle Train Trip” which was Chicago-Denver-San Francisco-Seattle-Glacier NP-Chicago. We found the food to be good to excellent on all the trains. The steak at dinner in particular was excellent.
> The service was good to very good, although sometimes just shy of slow; I’ll call it leisurely.
> 
> Breakfast and lunch were always first come/first served with a wait list. Dinner was reserved and they announced when they’d be coming through the sleepersto take reservations. Dinner was with white linen tablecloth, all meals with fresh flowers. Minor requests for changes, like no whipped cream on the French toast, were no problem.
> 
> We were very satisfied with the dining experience. In fact, the whole trip was great except for spending the night in Emeryville waiting for the Coast Starlight that was eight hours late, then ended up 13 hours late into Seattle. Ah well, we lived and now it’s a good story. The scenery on much of the ride was spectacular!
> 
> Pictured is French toast (with the whipped cream) and the steaks. View attachment 24463
> View attachment 24464



After riding the EB last week and enjoying traditional dining,it's going to be quite a letdown to return to flex. I am booked on the CONO and Crescent in November. Traditional dining,or at least some variation,can't return soon enough to every long distance train. It was so nice to be pleasantly full again. That doesn't happen with the woefully substandard flex food. Another way of putting it. Traditional dining you look forward to. Flex "dining" is a necessity. You have to eat.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> After riding the EB last week and enjoying traditional dining,it's going to be quite a letdown to return to flex. I am booked on the CONO and Crescent in November. Traditional dining,or at least some variation,can't return soon enough to every long distance train. It was so nice to be pleasantly full again. That doesn't happen with the woefully substandard flex food. Another way of putting it. Traditional dining you look forward to. Flex "dining" is a necessity. You have to eat.


I agree along with almost everyone else. My upcoming trips will take me cross country and I will experience the big let down when in the East... particularly the TE which goes from delicious dining to 'malicious flex' after SAS... overnight!


----------



## Cal

MainerTrainer said:


> We just got home from our “Triangle Train Trip” which was Chicago-Denver-San Francisco-Seattle-Glacier NP-Chicago. We found the food to be good to excellent on all the trains. The steak at dinner in particular was excellent.
> The service was good to very good, although sometimes just shy of slow; I’ll call it leisurely.
> 
> Breakfast and lunch were always first come/first served with a wait list. Dinner was reserved and they announced when they’d be coming through the sleepersto take reservations. Dinner was with white linen tablecloth, all meals with fresh flowers. Minor requests for changes, like no whipped cream on the French toast, were no problem.
> 
> We were very satisfied with the dining experience. In fact, the whole trip was great except for spending the night in Emeryville waiting for the Coast Starlight that was eight hours late, then ended up 13 hours late into Seattle. Ah well, we lived and now it’s a good story. The scenery on much of the ride was spectacular!
> 
> Pictured is French toast (with the whipped cream) and the steaks. View attachment 24463
> View attachment 24464


Yes, I loved every meal I had. Wish I could go back...


----------



## Dustyroad

If we get on the Southwest Chief at 5:30 p.m. how do we our make dinner reservation
time for that night? I am hoping we won't have to eat really late. Any help appreciated.


----------



## zephyr17

Dustyroad said:


> If we get on the Southwest Chief at 5:30 p.m. how do we our make dinner reservation
> time for that night? I am hoping we won't have to eat really late. Any help appreciated.


Most of the time your SCA will have gotten one for you.


----------



## Dustyroad

zephyr17 said:


> Most of the time your SCA will have gotten one for you.


Thank you zephyr. Good to know.


----------



## zephyr17

Dustyroad said:


> Thank you zephyr. Good to know.


If for some reason they haven't, go to the diner and get one from the LSA.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> If for some reason they haven't, go to the diner and get one from the LSA.


They are well aware of passengers getting on the train... and accommodate. A good attendant will accommodate meal requests when you board as they greet you.

That said... there are a very few Amtrak employees who provide service above and below that standard of basic expectation. I have had the below expectation experience many times. In that situation just go to the dining car and tell them you just got on. They must accommodate you and know you are entitled to appropriate service as per your ticket. 

I'm not happy to report I have been overlooked regardless of attempts to be accommodated with paid services. Sorry to say... tip the customer supportive employees well... and don't tip those who would rather be playing computer games than make your traveling all that you paid to have it be. 

Yup... I've seen it all.


----------



## Dustyroad

zephyr17 said:


> If for some reason they haven't, go to the diner and get one from the LSA.


Thanks again. I always get such great help here.


----------



## lordsigma

I heard on a Facebook group that there’s some talk about possibly trialing business class access to the dining car on the coast starlight. Could this be how they do it? Instead of selling dining car meals for a certain price like before instead sell diner access as “business class” or “first class.”


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> I heard on a Facebook group that there’s some talk about possibly trialing business class access to the dining car on the coast starlight. Could this be how they do it? Instead of selling dining car meals for a certain price like before instead sell diner access as “business class” or “first class.”


Looks like this was stated at an RPA event yesterday. They outright mentioned the labor shortage in OBS as the reason they have not been able to do more yet. Not sure the full specifics but supposedly at some point in October they hope to launch business class access to the diner on the Starlight.


----------



## neroden

Also stated that they had a bunch of cars which should be operating but weren't due to shortages of mechanical (car repair/maintenance) employees. This is causing the shortages of cars on the Eastern trains, and contributes to the lack of dining cars in addition to the OBS shortage.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Looks like this was stated at an RPA event yesterday. They outright mentioned the labor shortage in OBS as the reason they have not been able to do more yet. Not sure the full specifics but supposedly at some point in October they hope to launch business class access to the diner on the Starlight.


Booked on the starlight in December. I have a few 48 hour upgrade coupons I hope to use to get to business (they work for that, right?). If it works, I will let y’all know


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> Booked on the starlight in December. I have a few 48 hour upgrade coupons I hope to use to get to business (they work for that, right?). If it works, I will let y’all know


Ought to work, plus the Starlight's Business Class seldom sells out.


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> Ought to work, plus the Starlight's Business Class seldom sells out.


Good to know.


Would business class have to pay for the diner?


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> I heard on a Facebook group that there’s some talk about possibly trialing business class access to the dining car on the coast starlight. Could this be how they do it? Instead of selling dining car meals for a certain price like before instead sell diner access as “business class” or “first class.”



This would really distinguish business class, which on the Starlight and other LD trains has often seemed otherwise like an expensive version of coach with comparatively few extra amenities.


----------



## Sidney

fdaley said:


> This would really distinguish business class, which on the Starlight and other LD trains has often seemed otherwise like an expensive version of coach with comparatively few extra amenities.


That's a nice improvement. All you get in BC is water. Is the food complimentary with BC? If so,that will be quite a coup.


----------



## Sidney

Sidney said:


> That's a nice improvement. All you get in BC is water. Is the food complimentary with BC? If so,that will be quite a coup.


I have a day trip on the CS in late January in Coach. I quickly upgraded to BC in anticipation of diner food and if the food is indeed included,I have a feeling the price will rise.


----------



## fdaley

Sidney said:


> if the food is indeed included,I have a feeling the price will rise.



I think that is a safe bet. However, access to real dining car service would make the experience worth a significant markup from the coach fare. That said, I do miss the traditional concept of the dining car as a place open to all, regardless of class. But I could understand why Amtrak would structure it this way, given their current situation and constraints.


----------



## Chris I

fdaley said:


> This would really distinguish business class, which on the Starlight and other LD trains has often seemed otherwise like an expensive version of coach with comparatively few extra amenities.


I think it's a great idea. Most airlines now have "economy plus" on international flights that is more akin to what business class was a few decades ago. Amtrak could benefit from having a step between coach and the bedrooms. Big, comfy seats, more exclusive section of the train, and food/wine, etc.


----------



## lordsigma

If it works out on the starlight I wonder if they will introduce a “business class” on the other western routes or if they’ll eventually open up to all passengers.


----------



## lordsigma

Dining car access to be extended to 'Coast Starlight' business class - Trains


WASHINGTON — During a presentation to the Rail Passengers Association this week, Amtrak’s Chief Marketing and Revenue Officer, Roger Harris, revealed that beginning some time in October, business class passengers on the Seattle-Los Angeles Coast Starlight will be permitted to purchase food in...




www.trains.com





Trains article on the RPA meeting the other day. When asked about eastern dining it was mentioned that they are working with the vendor that they worked with on the new Acela first menu to come up with options for the eastern trains. They are also looking at the single level dining car kitchens to figure out if modifications could help. Maybe a new re-launched flexible dining that looks more like Acela first?


----------



## Tlcooper93

lordsigma said:


> Dining car access to be extended to 'Coast Starlight' business class - Trains
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON — During a presentation to the Rail Passengers Association this week, Amtrak’s Chief Marketing and Revenue Officer, Roger Harris, revealed that beginning some time in October, business class passengers on the Seattle-Los Angeles Coast Starlight will be permitted to purchase food in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trains article on the RPA meeting the other day. When asked about eastern dining it was mentioned that they are working with the vendor that they worked with on the new Acela first menu to come up with options for the eastern trains. They are also looking at the single level dining car kitchens to figure out if modifications could help. Maybe a new re-launched flexible dining that looks more like Acela first?



“because the feedback we have from customers is that we have very repetitive food options."

Wow, thats all they could reasonably say the feedback has been? What a sugarcoat.

Has anyone tried the new Acela menu yet? Is it good?


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> Dining car access to be extended to 'Coast Starlight' business class - Trains
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON — During a presentation to the Rail Passengers Association this week, Amtrak’s Chief Marketing and Revenue Officer, Roger Harris, revealed that beginning some time in October, business class passengers on the Seattle-Los Angeles Coast Starlight will be permitted to purchase food in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trains article on the RPA meeting the other day. When asked about eastern dining it was mentioned that they are working with the vendor that they worked with on the new Acela first menu to come up with options for the eastern trains. They are also looking at the single level dining car kitchens to figure out if modifications could help. Maybe a new re-launched flexible dining that looks more like Acela first?



I love the call center agent explaining the business class amenities: "You'll find out ... when you get on the train."

I can't say this article makes me particularly optimistic about what plan Amtrak will come up with for feeding travelers on the eastern overnights. Something more like the pre-pandemic Acela First meals would be better than what they're offering now, but that's not saying much. The Acela First meals are nicely presented (unlike the flex meals), and they're fine for people taking a trip of three or four or perhaps six hours. But they would leave me feeling quite hungry if I had to eat four or five of them in sequence on a trip of 20-30 hours.


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## Cal

fdaley said:


> I can't say this article makes me particularly optimistic about what plan Amtrak will come up with for feeding travelers on the eastern overnights. Something more like the pre-pandemic Acela First meals would be better than what they're offering now, but that's not saying much. The Acela First meals are nicely presented (unlike the flex meals), and they're fine for people taking a trip of three or four or perhaps six hours. But they would leave me feeling quite hungry if I had to eat four or five of them in sequence on a trip of 20-30 hours.


Still, wouldn't they be better than flex?


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## Tlcooper93

Cal said:


> Still, wouldn't they be better than flex?



Anything would be better than flex. For Eastern LD, I bring my own food on board. Flex actually makes me kind of sick.

The standard for excellence on LD trains however should _not _be “better than flex.”


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## me_little_me

What I got out of that article was "Boy, were we stupid!" and my only comment is "You just figured that out? That means you still have not cured stupidity and incompetence in upper level management."


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Sidney said:


> That's a nice improvement. All you get in BC is water. Is the food complimentary with BC? If so,that will be quite a coup.


On the Downeaster Business Class you get complimentary non alcoholic beverages plus priority access to the cafe. BC a good deal on the DE as not much more than coach and has comfortable 2+1 seating.


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## lordsigma

Tlcooper93 said:


> “because the feedback we have from customers is that we have very repetitive food options."
> 
> Wow, thats all they could reasonably say the feedback has been? What a sugarcoat.
> 
> Has anyone tried the new Acela menu yet? Is it good?


It looks pretty good and I think a couple of the items are ported over from the menu on the western trains like the lobster crab cake - I'm supposed to be trying it in a week - will let you know. They are working with that vendor but that doesn't mean it will be an identical menu to Acela. I'd expect more options. While we'd all love traditional dining on every single train - I'm not sure that's really feasible - remember several trains did NOT have full traditional dining even before contemporary/flex dining showed up. I can only really see the Silver service and maybe Lake Shore considered for all out traditional dining like out west. I can't imagine any situation where a train like the Cardinal and CONO will receive the western style dining. But they do not have to go as far as out west to vastly improve the offerings in the east.


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## zephyr17

With the Viewliner II diners it is perfectly feasible. All eastern long distance trains except the Cardinal had full dining. The Lake Shore lost it towards the end due to a shortage of functional Heritage diners. It was chosen because it was one of the shortest LD runs. They ordered sufficient diners to cover all services and intended to return full dining to the Lake Shore until Anderson.

I think they even ordered enough Viewliners to eventually cover the Cardinal.

Unless they deliberately do something stupid with the Viewliner II diners, like gutting the galleys, why do you think it is not feasible? Especially since the Mica Amendment is gone. They have the equipment. They can hire and train crews.


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## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> With the Viewliner II diners it is perfectly feasible. All eastern long distance trains except the Cardinal had full dining. The Lake Shore lost it towards the end due to a shortage of functional Heritage diners. It was chosen because it was one of the shortest LD runs. They ordered sufficient diners to cover all services and intended to return full dining to the Lake Shore until Anderson.
> 
> I think they even ordered enough Viewliners to eventually cover the Cardinal.
> 
> Unless they deliberately do something stupid with the Viewliner II diners, like gutting the galleys, why do you think it is not feasible? Especially since the Mica Amendment is gone. They have the equipment. They can hire and train crews.


Remembering how nice the meal service would sometimes be on the LS 'before Anderson.' Out of BOS there were choices of large prepackaged salads with cold meat if desired... or generously stuffed sandwiches. No doubt these were sourced out or BOS and could be brought back again if vendor is still operating. 

Prepackaged meals can be very tasty... as can be seen on YouTube /// amazingly good prepackaged bento boxes perfected in the Orient. Sometimes rather silly and 'cheeky' at times, and high in sodium... check this out... shows the potential of food technology and creativity that could be modified for use with Amtrak...


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> While we'd all love traditional dining on every single train - I'm not sure that's really feasible - remember several trains did NOT have full traditional dining even before contemporary/flex dining showed up.



They all had full traditional dining at one time.


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## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> They all had full traditional dining at one time.


Of course - but CONO and Cardinal have not for quite a while. Of course there are enough Viewliner II diners to do it everywhere and they could also on the CONO and CL and TE....but I just don't see it happening....but I think most of us would agree that there could be an acceptable middle ground if they went with something of higher quality and acceptable presentation along with a better mix of options and better choices for vegan/vegetarian etc. It doesn't have to be what they are doing out west or bust.


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## Tlcooper93

lordsigma said:


> It looks pretty good and I think a couple of the items are ported over from the menu on the western trains like the lobster crab cake - I'm supposed to be trying it in a week - will let you know. They are working with that vendor but that doesn't mean it will be an identical menu to Acela. I'd expect more options. While we'd all love traditional dining on every single train - I'm not sure that's really feasible - remember several trains did NOT have full traditional dining even before contemporary/flex dining showed up. I can only really see the Silver service and maybe Lake Shore considered for all out traditional dining like out west. I can't imagine any situation where a train like the Cardinal and CONO will receive the western style dining. But they do not have to go as far as out west to vastly improve the offerings in the east.



Yeah, I get what you're saying but I don't buy it.
Amtrak is fully capable of figuring out how to run full dining service on all eastern LD trains, they just wont do it.
Certainly Silvers and LSL should have full traditional dining. Silvers are eastern trains that feel like western trains, and the lacking meal service provided makes the ticket a ripoff.



20th Century Rider said:


> Remembering how nice the meal service would sometimes be on the LS 'before Anderson.' Out of BOS there were choices of large prepackaged salads with cold meat if desired... or generously stuffed sandwiches. No doubt these were sourced out or BOS and could be brought back again if vendor is still operating.
> 
> Prepackaged meals can be very tasty... as can be seen on YouTube /// amazingly good prepackaged bento boxes perfected in the Orient. Sometimes rather silly and 'cheeky' at times, and high in sodium... check this out... shows the potential of food technology and creativity that could be modified for use with Amtrak...




I agree with this.
There are so many ways to cheaply prepare pre-packaged food that actually tastes good and is healthy to an extent. Providing a real continental breakfast as well (not the garbage they serve on the Night Owl), would be nice for some of the longer eastern trains.
Moreover, many overnight trains in Europe have prepackaged options that more than satisfy customers.



lordsigma said:


> Of course - but CONO and Cardinal have not for quite a while. Of course there are enough Viewliner II diners to do it everywhere and they could also on the CONO and CL and TE....but I just don't see it happening....but I think most of us would agree that there could be an acceptable middle ground if they went with something of higher quality and acceptable presentation along with a better mix of options and better choices for vegan/vegetarian etc. It doesn't have to be what they are doing out west or bust.



Whats the point of getting fancy new diners that won't even be used....


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## lordsigma

Tlcooper93 said:


> Whats the point of getting fancy new diners that won't even be used....


they'll be used - but possibly in a different configuration to replace the split AmCafes where they are doing half cafe seating and half sleeper seating - they've been hinting the last couple years they may modify these cars to serve both cafe/sleeping car meals in the east. currently only the silvers/lake shore are running with separate amfleet cafe and Viewliner II sleeper dining cars. The fact that they are doing that is why I am thinking that only those trains may see the same setup as out west. Maybe we'll see a handful left unmodified for the Silvers/Lake Shore with the rest converted into something new (I know at least one or two diners have been modified into a concept where some of the seating was removed and replaced with a counter.) Something like that is what I'd expect if they modify them - remove some of the seating and replace with an order counter - probably more like a grab and go concept with some limited seating.


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> but I just don't see it happening



That’s not a reason for them not to. 

There isn’t a good reason not to have dining cars on all long distance trains.


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## neroden

me_little_me said:


> What I got out of that article was "Boy, were we stupid!" and my only comment is "You just figured that out? That means you still have not cured stupidity and incompetence in upper level management."


I'll give Roger Harris credit for admitting their stupidity. He said that the ridership resurgence after the Covid drop in ridership was much quicker, higher and faster than Amtrak's internal modelling had predicted -- and we all know that those of us outside Amtrak predicted this. RPA explicitly warned him that the ridership was going to come back hard and fast, and so did I, and they ran with a stupid underestimate instead. And they admitted that they were wrong. Admitting it is better than not admitting it.


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## Rasputin

The eastern trains should be operated as the premier trains of the system, not as cast-offs. They should feature those amenities which compel customers to divert from airlines and highways. At present they seem to appeal only to die-hard railfans and those who are hesitant to fly.


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## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> The eastern trains should be operated as the premier trains of the system, not as cast-offs. They should feature those amenities which compel customers to divert from airlines and highways. At present they seem to appeal only to die-hard railfans and those who are hesitant to fly.


Well they're also getting some new sleeper customers due to COVID. Those who are freaked out by traveling in close quarters.


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## 20th Century Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yeah, I get what you're saying but I don't buy it.
> Amtrak is fully capable of figuring out how to run full dining service on all eastern LD trains, they just wont do it.
> Certainly Silvers and LSL should have full traditional dining. Silvers are eastern trains that feel like western trains, and the lacking meal service provided makes the ticket a ripoff.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this.
> There are so many ways to cheaply prepare pre-packaged food that actually tastes good and is healthy to an extent. Providing a real continental breakfast as well (not the garbage they serve on the Night Owl), would be nice for some of the longer eastern trains.
> Moreover, many overnight trains in Europe have prepackaged options that more than satisfy customers.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the point of getting fancy new diners that won't even be used....


This was the object of much frustration and criticism from Amtrak patrons - those beautiful new restaurant cars on the Eastern routes were so magnificent... then they sidelined them... and that makes no sense at all!


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## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s not a reason for them not to.
> 
> There isn’t a good reason not to have dining cars on all long distance trains.


You won't see me complain if they do - just trying to be a realist. While Mica is gone we do have the same Amtrak management that is fixated on costs.


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## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> The eastern trains should be operated as the premier trains of the system, not as cast-offs. They should feature those amenities which compel customers to divert from airlines and highways. At present they seem to appeal only to die-hard railfans and those who are hesitant to fly.



Agreed. The Silver Trains, Lake Shore and Capitol especially and probably the Crescent as well since it’s the only connection between the NEC and Atlanta. 

I would give them a pass on the city of New Orleans and Texas Eagle, a proper CCC would be adequate for those trains. (As originally intended CCC with a chef).


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## jis

If the new Authorization is ever adopted by Congress and becomes the law, then Amtrak will not have its last remaining excuse to clobber food service on eastern trains. They will be required to prioritize service quality over profitability and gratuitous cost reduction. Once that becomes law it will be time to go after Amtrak.

Until then their excuse is that they are still supposed to be run like a for profit business, and they get to choose what they will or will not prioritize. This was explained in an internal communication within RPA over the last several weeks. That is why they have been dragging their feet in the east.

But with these things, when you have a management that is unwilling to do anything beyond the bare minimum to keep their posteriors out of fire and nothing more, you can never tell what new excuse they might discover that will require further application of two by fours to their rear ends.

Of course all of this is further complicated by labor shortage and related COVID driven issues. But hopefully those will ease after it can be arranged so that enough people get vaccinated or get immunized through infections or just die so that they cannot participate in infecting more people.


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## Triley

lordsigma said:


> Maybe we'll see a handful left unmodified for the Silvers/Lake Shore with the rest converted into something new (I know at least one or two diners have been modified into a concept where some of the seating was removed and replaced with a counter.)



Where did you see this?


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## OBS

Triley said:


> Where did you see this?


My error...


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## lordsigma

Triley said:


> Where did you see this?


Was quite a while back before covid. They did some sort of concept car thing with one or two of the VL2s. I seeing on a facebook group. Wish I could go back and find it. Basically they had stripped out a few seats closest to the kitchen and installed an ordering counter or something along those lines. Will try to find it somehow.


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## lordsigma

Here it is - was 68008. They did this mockup with it - whether the car is still like this or whether they reverted after doing whatever demo they did I don't know.


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## Sidney

The Silver trains should never have dropped traditional dining. The sleeper prices are outrageous considering you are getting flex "dining". A full run takes two full days. When Flex dining was introduced on the CL and LSL way before Covid,I could almost understand the reasoning because they are shorter routes. Installing Flex on the Silvers and the Crescent,again pre covid was a slap in the face.


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## jis

Sidney said:


> The Silver trains should never have dropped traditional dining. The sleeper prices are outrageous considering you are getting flex "dining". A full run takes two full days. When Flex dining was introduced on the CL and LSL way before Covid,I could almost understand the reasoning because they are shorter routes. Installing Flex on the Silvers and the Crescent,again pre covid was a slap in the face.


Well, actually Silver Star lost Dining completely in yet another Mica driven experiment way before Covid. I am not sure it ever got Flex, until it got its Diner back mid-Covid. It is Silver Meteor that maintained traditional dining until it got Flex.

LSL actually got something called Contemporary Dining before it got Flexed, initially with only cold meals. Nothing hot at all.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> View attachment 24525
> 
> 
> Here it is - was 68008. They did this mockup with it - whether the car is still like this or whether they reverted after doing whatever demo they did I don't know.


That appears to be purely a mockup. Even the seats and tables in the background look fake. My guess is it was done before the car interior was installed, just to see how things might fit.

So the question is not whether the car was reverted, but rather whether a real installation of this setup ever actually occurred.


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Those who are freaked out by traveling in close quarters.


Well wouldn't that be people who are hesitant to fly (and ride busses)? As flying requires one to be travelling in close quarters with many others.


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## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Well wouldn't that be people who are hesitant to fly (and ride busses)? As flying requires one to be travelling in close quarters with many others.


Very true. I guess I would just state that such group is likely larger with the pandemic


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## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> That appears to be purely a mockup. Even the seats and tables in the background look fake. My guess is it was done before the car interior was installed, just to see how things might fit.
> 
> So the question is not whether the car was reverted, but rather whether a real installation of this setup ever actually occurred.


If one looks at the "Just the facts" thread 68008 operated in revenue service prior to this so they would have removed the tables and seating to do this mockup. So did they get reinstalled and this car go back in service, or is it sitting in storage somewhere?


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> I love the call center agent explaining the business class amenities: "You'll find out ... when you get on the train."
> 
> that's called ... "Dodging the bullet!"


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## Dakota 400

lordsigma said:


> View attachment 24525
> 
> 
> Here it is - was 68008. They did this mockup with it - whether the car is still like this or whether they reverted after doing whatever demo they did I don't know.



That would be a very poor use of the new dining cars in my opinion.


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## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> That would be a very poor use of the new dining cars in my opinion.


I think you're going to see something like this on some trains. Doing full traditional dining means having to have two food service cars. Just don't know if such is justified on trains like the CONO and Cardinal that haven't had the full deal in years - yes it can be done but does it have to be?... Don't get me wrong we need improvements - I think something like the original CCC concept with a chef or food specialist working with an LSA serving both coach and sleeper passengers with carry away and some seat yourself in one car is probably a good option on the Cardinal/CONO/Capitol Limited/Crescent/TE - you can throw the SSL back on the TE/CL as an unstaffed car like it is on the CONO - I don't think you need what they are doing out west on every single train - I think you can have a simpler option but with decent selection/similar food quality - just not waiter service, flowers, white table clothes, etc.. I think Lake Shore/Silvers should go back to traditional - western trains style with the fancy presentation....with separate dining/cafe cars.


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## jis

What Cardinal will look like when it becomes daily, something that the Amtrak management folks who attended the RPA meeting appeared to be committed to, will inevitably have an effect on what it ridership will become and what services will be provided on it. So I would refrain at this time from writing it off as a train forever relegated to its current purgatory status.

I am also dubious about treating Crescent between New York and Atlanta as a second class train. Crescent's ridership problems are mostly south of Atlanta and even more so south of Birmingham at present. It has always been weak south of Atlanta even in the Southern Crescent days. So maybe it is time to rethink Crescent and restructure it as two trains, one high class New York or even Boston to Atlanta train and another New York to New Orleans secondary train if that is what it takes.

Of course every improvement requires more equipment and staff. One cannot get something for nothing. Conversely if Amtrak was shut down it would not require any equipment or staff, but that does not make it a reasonable thing to do - just to throe in a ridiculous strawman that is


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I think you're going to see something like this on some trains. Doing full traditional dining means having to have two food service cars. Just don't know if such is justified on trains like the CONO and Cardinal that haven't had the full deal in years - yes it can be done but does it have to be?... Don't get me wrong we need improvements - I think something like the original CCC concept with a chef or food specialist working with an LSA serving both coach and sleeper passengers with carry away and some seat yourself in one car is probably a good option on the Cardinal/CONO/Capitol Limited/Crescent/TE - you can throw the SSL back on the TE/CL as an unstaffed car like it is on the CONO - I don't think you need what they are doing out west on every single train - I think you can have a simpler option but with decent selection/similar food quality - just not waiter service, flowers, white table clothes, etc.. I think Lake Shore/Silvers should go back to traditional - western trains style with the fancy presentation....with separate dining/cafe cars.


If not all trains can come back with your version of full traditional dining, the TE and Crescent need it. They are both 30+ hours. The Cardinal is also 26. The LSL, CL, and CONO are all under 20 and much of it is overnight but on the 20+ hour trains, a full diner and cafe should be a thing.


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## Cal

jis said:


> What Cardinal will look like when it becomes daily, something that the Amtrak management folks who attended the RPA meeting appeared to be committed to, will inevitably have an effect on what it ridership will become and what services will be provided on it. So I would refrain at this time from writing it off as a train forever relegated to its current purgatory status.


Cardinal is on it's way to being daily?


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## jis

Cal said:


> Cardinal is on it's way to being daily?


Upon questioning Harris said that they were committed to work towards that goal. That is more than what any Amtrak executive has said before. This time lack of money is not going to be an available excuse if the Appropriation and Authorization passes in its present form, and STB appears to be more friendly too when it comes to it. So who knows? We'll see. Fingers crossed.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I think you're going to see something like this on some trains. Doing full traditional dining means having to have two food service cars. Just don't know if such is justified on trains like the CONO and Cardinal that haven't had the full deal in years - yes it can be done but does it have to be?... Don't get me wrong we need improvements - I think something like the original CCC concept with a chef or food specialist working with an LSA serving both coach and sleeper passengers with carry away and some seat yourself in one car is probably a good option on the Cardinal/CONO/Capitol Limited/Crescent/TE - you can throw the SSL back on the TE/CL as an unstaffed car like it is on the CONO - I don't think you need what they are doing out west on every single train - I think you can have a simpler option but with decent selection/similar food quality - just not waiter service, flowers, white table clothes, etc.. I think Lake Shore/Silvers should go back to traditional - western trains style with the fancy presentation....with separate dining/cafe cars.



How are you choosing which trains should get what service? Why would the lake shore get full dining and not the Capitol for example?


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## jis

That one is probably just ridership. Capitol has always been a poorer performer of the two. Of course that can be fixed pronto by adding a New York section to the Capitol  Hey there is even a fully worked out plan for doing so in the PIPs circular file at Amtrak HQ


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> That one is probably just ridership. Capitol has always been a poorer performer of the two. Of course that can be fixed pronto by adding a New York section to the Capitol  Hey there is even a fully worked out plan for doing so in the PIPs circular file at Amtrak HQ



Well if we are going by ridership the Star and Meteor should have it back over any of the western trains.


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## Cal

jis said:


> Upon questioning Harris said that they were committed to work towards that goal. That is more than what any Amtrak executive has said before. This time lack of money is not going to be an available excuse if the Appropriation and Authorization passes in its present form, and STB appears to be more friendly too when it comes to it. So who knows? We'll see. Fingers crossed.


Amazing. Anything on the Sunset? Or is that still a non-starter? 


jis said:


> That one is probably just ridership. Capitol has always been a poorer performer of the two. Of course that can be fixed pronto by adding a New York section to the Capitol  Hey there is even a fully worked out plan for doing so in the PIPs circular file at Amtrak HQ


How would that work out at Washington? They would have to do some interesting switching maneuvers. Although they could just pull in with P42's and have the electric engine be coupled at the rear, now front. I guess it's simpler than I thought 

Of course, using viewliners. 


Wait, I realize you mean the New YOrk section would split off at Pittsburg.


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## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> If not all trains can come back with your version of full traditional dining, the TE and Crescent need it. They are both 30+ hours. The Cardinal is also 26. The LSL, CL, and CONO are all under 20 and much of it is overnight but on the 20+ hour trains, a full diner and cafe should be a thing.


Of course they can bring back full service dining to Eastern trains with quality meals... they can do anything they want to do... and are motivated to do... but this thing with Amtrak... a national rail system with practically no competition... should reflect the pride of the nation. Those ridiculous flex meals that are an insult to all of us.


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## ReadingCrusader

Sorry maybe this has been answered (I don't have time to read every message): is there a date as to when the NYC-Florida trains will get full dining cars? Also can someone tell me if ice is available in CZ sleepers?


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## Cal

ReadingCrusader said:


> Sorry maybe this has been answered (I don't have time to read every message): is there a date as to when the NYC-Florida trains will get full dining cars? Also can someone tell me if ice is available in CZ sleepers?


Nope, might not even get full dining cars. But a dining upgrade is expected before spring.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> How are you choosing which trains should get what service? Why would the lake shore get full dining and not the Capitol for example?


Was going to respond saying current ridership trends but someone already did. Would certainly say if ridership booms on others and they add sleepers then all bets are off… but I think all of us would agree that we would accept at least some higher quality food even if it doesn’t come with the full table service/tablecloths/flowers. Kind of going off how those are the trains currently running with two food cars.

As for the western trains…the dining experience is an absolutely essential part of the experience on western trains with their long length and attracting many experiential passengers for the views and it’s not really just pure ridership it’s really more about sleeper passengers riding long distances. When I say ridership I mean ridership from the perspective of the Eastern trains…I think out west is a different animal.

Am I going to cry foul if they put it on other or even all trains? Absolutely not. Just trying to look at it from a business point of view and somewhat putting myself in management shoes.


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## Mr.Technician

I'm curious, have the flex meals gotten that much worse? I remember having it in 2018 and it was excellent... Not the same experience as traditional dining, but still good food.


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## crescent-zephyr

Mr.Technician said:


> I'm curious, have the flex meals gotten that much worse? I remember having it in 2018 and it was excellent... Not the same experience as traditional dining, but still good food.



What did you have? In 2018 you might have had “contemporary” dining.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Was going to respond saying current ridership trends but someone already did. Would certainly say if ridership booms on others and they add sleepers then all bets are off… but I think all of us would agree that we would accept at least some higher quality food even if it doesn’t come with the full table service/tablecloths/flowers. Kind of going off how those are the trains currently running with two food cars.
> 
> As for the western trains…the dining experience is an absolutely essential part of the experience on western trains with their long length and attracting many experiential passengers for the views and it’s not really just pure ridership it’s really more about sleeper passengers riding long distances. When I say ridership I mean ridership from the perspective of the Eastern trains…I think out west is a different animal.
> 
> Am I going to cry foul if they put it on other or even all trains? Absolutely not. Just trying to look at it from a business point of view and somewhat putting myself in management shoes.



Yeah I looked up the ridership numbers, I’m surprised the Lake Shore is that much ahead of the Capitol but that would make sense. 

I do agree trains like the City could use a CCC car and be fine (again, actual ccc car as originally intended with a chef).


----------



## lordsigma

Mr.Technician said:


> I'm curious, have the flex meals gotten that much worse? I remember having it in 2018 and it was excellent... Not the same experience as traditional dining, but still good food.


I don’t personally hate flex dining I can live with it for like a single dinner. But I think it could be much better both in terms of presentation and quality. I personally can live with it but I think upgrades would improve customer satisfaction as many don’t agree with me on being ok with it.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> If one looks at the "Just the facts" thread 68008 operated in revenue service prior to this so they would have removed the tables and seating to do this mockup. So did they get reinstalled and this car go back in service, or is it sitting in storage somewhere?


Based on my view of Amtrak's recent history, it's probably in storage for they day when they are forced to bring it back by a threat from congress. But since there is more than a slim chance that the country will go back to the dark ages, Amtrak might be better off abandoning it now rather than in 2 or 4 years. I don't foresee Amtrak ever getting all the money the infrastructure bill promises.

Oh well! It sounded good while it lasted.


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## Mr.Technician

crescent-zephyr said:


> What did you have? In 2018 you might have had “contemporary” dining.



Here's a picture I found on my phone (Capitol Limited):


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## crescent-zephyr

Mr.Technician said:


> Here's a picture I found on my phone:
> View attachment 24555



Yes that was “Contemporary Dining” the current flex dining is a huge step down. 

(All of these contemporary, flex, simplified and cross country dining terms are just silly!)


----------



## Mr.Technician

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes that was “Contemporary Dining” the current flex dining is a huge step down.
> 
> (All of these contemporary, flex, simplified and cross country dining terms are just silly!)


Oh dear, that is quite confusing...

What are the flex meals like?

And I've never even heard of simplified or cross country.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well if we are going by ridership the Star and Meteor should have it back over any of the western trains.


First condition was Western trains for whatever reason - mainly two night journeys, though strictly speaking the Starlight does not fall under that. Then comes Eastern trains. The discussion currently is about criterion used for single night journey trains other than the Starlight, which essentially are all the so called Eastern trains. So while your point has merit, it is not really relevant given how the discussions within Amtrak has progressed.


----------



## Rambling Robert

If your train is full and traveling Coach on the LSL be sure to go to the cafe before the yuuuuuge line that forms into the next car. I was lucky,



===========•••=========



BOS to NYP I passed on food but a kind woman vending drinks (lower level) and pastry sold me a killer danish for half off. I then went directly from the same platform but different escalator. I waited until my return to see the Moynihan.



I was pleased to see LIRR senior was about 50% off like Boston CR.



=======••••=======



ON the return to Boston I checked out Monihan. The very front of the westbound LIRR makes it EZ to get to the escalator up to the Moynihan. 



I didn’t feel like finding anything to eat because I was pleasantly surprised by the Moynihan Train Hall and watching the Amtrak folk do crowd control.








One Amtrak guy put on a little comedy show for our very long line. He was funny. He explained how you file a complaint with Amtrak office / funny.



I was hovering at the gate (the down escalator) when a pleasant Amtrak employee told me about the very nice waiting-area.












Not only does Moynihan look better in person but the Amtrak folk earned high marks on a Friday morning.



I was up for juice and the pretty good breakfast sandwich. The Jimmy Dean sausage makes it a descent breakfast sandwich.



We ran 40 minutes late to New London but the ferry held the boat and about ten people got off for NLC or The Fisher Island Ferry. I was lucky to have a private contact to visit there.



New London Union Station was old school Amtrak-folks but somehow I got the coke machine to work... concluding my Amtrak dining experience.

Oh


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Mr.Technician said:


> Here's a picture I found on my phone (Capitol Limited):
> View attachment 24555


When they first introduced the concept of 'Flex Dining' it seemed to be a respectful replacement of the restaurant service... and don't forget... they re-introduced amenity kits in each sleeper room as well. [mimicking what Amtrak provided years ago. Each meal was in a balsa wood box which may have been flimsy but had a qualitative feel about it. It also included a reusable green bag for which the contents could be transported to the room. 

I am so offended by the changes to downgrade the concept to LESS THAN NOTHING! Food service simply doesn't qualify as food service... is disgustingly distasteful, and totally unrealistic.

I have lost confidence in Amtrak management because they have absolutely no respect for the customers!


----------



## fdaley

From my limited experience (because I basically have sworn off any trains with this service), what distinguishes the "contemporary" and "flexible" meals from the dining service that existed previously:
-- Pre-packaged meals with no food preparation on board other than reheating (and in the case of "contemporary," no reheating as all of the choices were served cold or at room temperature).
-- No effort at plating or presentation, with the food served in its as-delivered tub or packaging.
-- No place settings and no table service, unless the attendant opts to deliver the reheated tub to your table. Otherwise, pick up your own plastic cutlery, napkins, drinks.

My fear from reading the Trains article is that Amtrak management is still thinking at some level that the flexible model can be "substantially improved" by doing things like adding a wider selection of entrees rather than by going back to something more in the tradition of restaurant-style presentation and service.

If it's necessary to have some trains have less than full dining service, it certainly makes sense to have the best service on the western trains. But I'm not seeing why it's necessary to have two tiers of meal service, given that the Mica rules are gone and the political environment is now quite supportive of good rail service, even on the LD routes.

Good on-board food service is an amenity that will help to build and maintain ridership, so it's still pretty important on an 18- or 25-hour trip, not just on a 40-hour ride.

Even with flex meals, the Lake Shore Limited could probably sell out an additional sleeper at busy times. But that ridership would be easier to attract and retain throughout the year with high-quality meal service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rambling Robert said:


> One Amtrak guy put on a little comedy show for our very long line. He was funny. He explained how you file a complaint with Amtrak office / funny.



If it’s the same guy who I’ve encountered at New York Penn he is HILARIOUS. I’d pay to watch his stand up show.


----------



## Tlcooper93

fdaley said:


> My fear from reading the Trains article is that Amtrak management is still thinking at some level that the flexible model can be "substantially improved" by doing things like adding a wider selection of entrees rather than by going back to something more in the tradition of restaurant-style presentation and service.



this is a very important take-away.
Amtrak, in an oddly genuine and convincing way, seems utterly against restoring any semblance of what they had before, almost as if there were a good reason not to: on the other hand, they seem convinced the only issue we have with flex dining is a lack of variety...


----------



## Rambling Robert

Has guidelines or decisions been made at the Fall 2021 RPA/Amtrak meeting in Virginia?

Over the summer Amtrak management was considering traditional dining to Coach if available because of sleeper lack of demand.

I have been telling potential Coach riders what great food Amtrak had for Coach western treins and the LSL. There has to be a more positive change in dining for me to continue talking about .it. I’m sure this goes true for hundreds of regular riders


----------



## jis

Rambling Robert said:


> Has guidelines or decisions been made at the Fall 2021 RPA/Amtrak meeting in Virginia?


The meeting was a Zoom meeting. The face to face meeting was canceled. 

I am not aware of any guidelines or decisions mentioning any specific dates for any service enhancement about food service that were mentioned, and I sat through most of the Zoom sessions.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> Just trying to look at it from a business point of view and somewhat putting myself in management shoes.


Well, you certainly sound like you'd fit right in with Amtrak's current management.


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> Well, you certainly sound like you'd fit right in with Amtrak's current management.


Woah woah woah! No need for such a harsh statement, that's as bad as it gets!


----------



## Winecliff Station

Tlcooper93 said:


> Anything would be better than flex. For Eastern LD, I bring my own food on board. Flex actually makes me kind of sick.
> 
> The standard for excellence on LD trains however should _not _be “better than flex.”


I couldn't take my rings off for three days after flex dining on the LSL to and from Chicago for a long weekend last week. Happens every time I eat those flex meals more than once....probably water retention from all the sodium.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Well, you certainly sound like you'd fit right in with Amtrak's current management.


Not sure if this was meant to be belligerent or a joke but not really - I’m not much of a management type - I could never fire people or eliminate jobs - if I was actually in charge I’d probably be one opposing the job cuts at the time they went contemporary at the beginning - I also very much oppose the closing down of staffed stations. It’s more about being a realist and trying to look at it from a business perspective and what I think is going to happen given the climate in their front office and what I think could be a better middle ground solution putting myself in their shoes. If anything I’m a pragmatist and I just try to look at things from all perspectives.

I think I said before - you’re not going to hear me complain if they go traditional sit down dining on every train because of course that is the best experience and maybe absent mica and with the new bill maybe they will. I just said I’m not sure it’s necessary on every train and I don’t see them doing it, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to gripe if they do - I’m a supporter of long distance trains. We’ll just have to wait and see. For me it’s not all about the food on eastern trains and while I can tolerate the flex meals myself on a one night journey (I did find they got old on a two night journal on my cross country trip and greatly enjoyed the restored traditional dining for my last leg home) I know a lot of people don’t and there’s not good choices for those with dietary restrictions so we do need to see some kind of improvement at least and if they go all out great. I mean no disrespect to anyone that disagrees with my predictions/thoughts - I’m not the monster you may think


----------



## Winecliff Station

Rambling Robert said:


> Has guidelines or decisions been made at the Fall 2021 RPA/Amtrak meeting in Virginia?
> 
> Over the summer Amtrak management was considering traditional dining to Coach if available because of sleeper lack of demand.
> 
> I have been telling potential Coach riders what great food Amtrak had for Coach western treins and the LSL. There has to be a more positive change in dining for me to continue talking about .it. I’m sure this goes true for hundreds of regular riders



I thought there might be artificial demand for sleepers right now because of Covid and the mask mandate, but my LSL trip last week found the sleepers less than half full. My travel days were Thursday and Sunday nights though, which may have lower ridership. On alternate Fridays when I take the LSL only as far west as Syracuse, the sleepers are nearly full.


----------



## fdaley

Tlcooper93 said:


> this is a very important take-away.
> Amtrak, in an oddly genuine and convincing way, seems utterly against restoring any semblance of what they had before, almost as if there were a good reason not to: on the other hand, they seem convinced the only issue we have with flex dining is a lack of variety...



It seems sort of willfully dense, given how strong the reaction from some of us has been. What I'd like to hear someone from Amtrak management saying is: We really made a mistake with this flexible dining program on the eastern trains. We were trying to comply with a directive to save money, but we wound up alienating some of our most loyal customers and delivering a level of service that wasn't appealing to new customers either. So we're working a new model that's closer to what we had before, though the staffing and supply issues might take awhile to sort out.

But that's not really what we're hearing. Of course, with nearly all of the long-distance train consists fixed at the same size for the past 25 years, it's been a long time since there really was much focus on how to attract and retain customers through good service and amenities. Certainly the goal of management with the LD trains in the couple of years before the pandemic seemed to be: "Let's use our system of sleeper fare buckets to maximize revenue on each departure, and if we can slash spending on amenities and still get enough people to ride, so much the better."

What's weird is that with the dining program they've now put in place on the western trains, management seems to have acknowledged that good meal service really is important to attracting and sustaining ridership, at least in the sleepers. But they still seem to be trying to come up with some metric by which they can deem this important on some routes but less so on others. I don't understand the point of this. Is it just about saving face?


----------



## lordsigma

I think if you look at data on who is riding, why they are riding, etc. (if they actually take such data) you’d probably find different routes have subtle differences in the reasoning for selection of Amtrak or at least differences in the percentages. It’s not to say that food service isn’t important on other routes - but the routes selected are some of the Longest and most scenic routes in the system and probably attract the most riders going on an adventure and looking for that old fashioned rail experience of which the dining car is an important part of. I would certainly say that if they could only do five trains to start out they certainly picked the most important ones where the absence of traditional dining hurts the train the most.


----------



## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> I think if you look at data on who is riding, why they are riding, etc. (if they actually take such data) you’d probably find different routes have subtle differences in the reasoning for selection of Amtrak or at least differences in the percentages. It’s not to say that food service isn’t important on other routes - but the routes selected are some of the Longest and most scenic routes in the system and probably attract the most riders going on an adventure and looking for that old fashioned rail experience of which the dining car is an important part of. I would certainly say that if they could only do five trains to start out they certainly picked the most important ones where the absence of traditional dining hurts the train the most.



Definitely I agree that the five trains they picked were the most important ones to fix. I just think it's pretty important to fix this on most of the other LD trains too. I can't imagine wanting to ride the Crescent from New York to New Orleans or the Eagle from Chicago to San Antonio with the current meal service.

And even on shorter trips, the flex meals are driving away business. Recently I had a friend who was contemplating taking the Crescent from New York to a family gathering in Georgia. He was telling me how much he had enjoyed the dining car on previous sleeper trips in the pre-flex era. I told him about the changes to the meal service. His wife wound up flying, and he stayed home.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Another disincentive if you are in the Boston sleeper of the LSL is that you have to walk back what seems like a mile of coaches, all while at 79mph on typical CSX track, just to get your Hungry Man TV dinner. I realize to shuffle the cars at Albany to put the sleepers together is probably unrealistic. But sometimes I'm tempted to pass up the free meal and stop at the cafe conveniently next to the sleeper.


----------



## neroden

I haven't eaten in the LSL dining car since the first meal after they trashed the LSL menu back in... geez, I think it must have been 2016 or 2015, I can't even remember now. It was the first one trashed after the Cardinal's "diner lite" operation, even before the Silver Starvation and before "flex meal" trashing came to the rest of the trains.

I am willing to give Flynn's administration the benefit of the doubt since the chefs were laid off by Anderson and it does take time to hire and train new chefs. Both Anderson and anyone he was listening to when he cancelled the Eastern dining car services (Stephen Gardner?) were fools, however.


----------



## Tlcooper93

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Another disincentive if you are in the Boston sleeper of the LSL is that you have to walk back what seems like a mile of coaches, all while at 79mph on typical CSX track, just to get your Hungry Man TV dinner. I realize to shuffle the cars at Albany to put the sleepers together is probably unrealistic. But sometimes I'm tempted to pass up the free meal and stop at the cafe conveniently next to the sleeper.



I can second that. Likely doing a cross country trip from California to Boston in October, and will have to deal with that again. Always wondered why the cars were oriented in that way (likely to do with the combining of trains I guess).

The diner lite they offered on the Northeast Direct (Night Owl basically) back in 2000 was really nice! Especially for a one night journey, I'm sure it would be a great compromise for the eastern LD trains.


----------



## fdaley

neroden said:


> I haven't eaten in the LSL dining car since the first meal after they trashed the LSL menu back in... geez, I think it must have been 2016 or 2015, I can't even remember now. It was the first one trashed after the Cardinal's "diner lite" operation, even before the Silver Starvation and before "flex meal" trashing came to the rest of the trains.
> 
> I am willing to give Flynn's administration the benefit of the doubt since the chefs were laid off by Anderson and it does take time to hire and train new chefs. Both Anderson and anyone he was listening to when he cancelled the Eastern dining car services (Stephen Gardner?) were fools, however.



I rode the Lake Shore several times in 2017-18 when it had the "diner lite" operation (traditional dining in an Amfleet lounge, after the last heritage diners were retired). It wasn't ideal but was much better than what followed. By coincidence I was on the last westbound with diner lite service, leaving Albany on 5/31/18. On our way back from New Mexico a few days later, I was surprised to see the long-awaited Viewliner diner in the consist, but Amtrak had already switched to "contemporary" food, which means they effectively killed dining service the moment these cars arrived on the LSL. We haven't booked another family trip on the overnight portion of the Lake Shore since then. I took it once on a solo trip after the advent of "flexible" dining, which of course was billed as an improvement. Horrible.


----------



## Winecliff Station

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Another disincentive if you are in the Boston sleeper of the LSL is that you have to walk back what seems like a mile of coaches, all while at 79mph on typical CSX track, just to get your Hungry Man TV dinner. I realize to shuffle the cars at Albany to put the sleepers together is probably unrealistic. But sometimes I'm tempted to pass up the free meal and stop at the cafe conveniently next to the sleeper.



And in reverse, if you’re in the NY side and would like a snack or night cap, same problem. Last week on the westbound LSL, hubby and I shared a couple of those large Chardonnay bottles and he started up a chat with the cafe attendant about restaurant recommendations in Chicago. The flex meal obviously left me unsatisfied because I got the munchies and ordered the mac and cheese, which was much better than expected. Then we had the long walk back to our bedroom around midnight  which seemed a lot longer than the trip there.


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## lordsigma

Photo from Acela first on 2153 this morning. Bacon and Swiss Omelette is so much better than the flex omelette they were serving prior. Looking forward to trying the dinner options on my return trip.


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## cassie225

I have to say unless it is an emergency I will probably not take Amtrak to get to my destination, I always took the Crescent from NO to Newark to see my daughter, but no more, service and the food on my recent trip to Atlanta has made me rethink taking train, I will keep updated through the post here to find out when traditional dining is restored. I also took the train from Hammond to Memphis long ago and it was awesome, we did coach and were able to go to dining car.


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## lordsigma

Decided to take my after New York meal early - I am stuffed now! Lobster crab cake. Quality good for both meals.




cassie225 said:


> I have to say unless it is an emergency I will probably not take Amtrak to get to my destination, I always took the Crescent from NO to Newark to see my daughter, but no more, service and the food on my recent trip to Atlanta has made me rethink taking train, I will keep updated through the post here to find out when traditional dining is restored. I also took the train from Hammond to Memphis long ago and it was awesome, we did coach and were able to go to dining car.



Stay tuned -it sounds like changes are coming to the east. No details yet except that they are working with the new vendor used for the Acela first meals on changes to Eastern LD trains. That should result in an improvement - I found the Acela first meals today of high quality.


----------



## bratkinson

Lordsigma's Acela FC experience is like mine in the past 6 weeks. Much improved over what it was 2 years ago to the point of being quite tasty. But I found them not sufficiently 'filling'. 

2153 is my usual morning Acela and 2170 return. I suspect the switch between the 2 Acela FC menus occurs monthly, as in September, the eggs were 'Benedict' style, rather than cheese/bacon omelette I had in August, which I preferred.


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## priller

My experience from a trip last week. I took the Cardinal from MSS-CHI. The best SCA (David) I ever had, really helpful and on top of things. He delivered lunch and dinner to my roomette. I had no problem with the Flexible Dining options. Both lunch and dinner were quite good. The breakfast omelet I could do without. Overall, for a poor little neglected train like the Cardinal, the meals were better than expected.

Then I was on the Empire Builder 27(25). I got dinner and breakfast before the train was terminated in Minot, due to the derailment. I was traveling solo. In the diner I got seated at a table my myself. White linen, real glasses, real silverware, plastic plates and fresh flowers ... all as expected. The food quality was high and service was fast. I got the flatiron steak. Cooked perfectly and great taste. I overheard other tables raving over how good the salmon was.


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## Tlcooper93

Probably taking a cross country trip in October with my family. Any word on whether or not coffee has been restored to sleepers?


----------



## JayPea

Tlcooper93 said:


> Probably taking a cross country trip in October with my family. Any word on whether or not coffee has been restored to sleepers?


I can't speak for the entire system but I am on the Coast Starlight and there is coffee service on both sleepers.


----------



## Cal

Tlcooper93 said:


> Probably taking a cross country trip in October with my family. Any word on whether or not coffee has been restored to sleepers?


Coffee has been restored AFAIK


----------



## TheVig

On the Crescent yesterday going from CLT to PHL, wife and I managed to survive another round of flex meals.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Coffee in the sleeper was hit or miss on the LSL… had it westbound, but not eastbound


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Coffee in the sleeper on the CZ, SWC and both directions on the LSL last 2 weeks.

Both my wife and I thought the traditional dining on the CZ and SWC was great. On the SWC I had the steak and it was excellent, done just as ordered. She had the pasta dish whatever it is called and enjoyed it. Returning on the CZ we both had the salmon and we were impressed that it was cooked properly and not overdone and dry like many restaurants do. Also the desserts (we tried all 3) were great. She thought the chocolate torte was as good as anything she has had in a restaurant.

The flex dining was unfortunately another matter. On the way out we both had the enchilada, just OK. On the way home on the LSL we just had breakfast, I had the continental which was fine. We didn't have lunch or dinner as we were planning to go out with our kids when we got off.


----------



## river

We enjoyed dining on the SWC as well! I got the steak 3 times (out of 4 dinners) and had all three desserts (flourless chocolate cake, strawberry cheesecake, and carrot cake) several times as well. My companion enjoyed the salmon and the pasta dish. We liked the lobster-crab cake appetizer and the complimentary wines as well. And that was just dinner! Very good! By the end of our trip we were stuffed and started needing to share desserts!
We enjoyed the burger, chili (a bit spicy), and artisan grilled cheese for lunch (with the same desserts) and the egg entrees and continental breakfast for breakfast. By the end we actually ordered off the kids menu as we couldn't eat another big meal! Mac and Cheese and the hot dog were good. 
Traditional dining was a wonderful experience on our trip!


----------



## Tlcooper93

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Coffee in the sleeper on the CZ, SWC and both directions on the LSL last 2 weeks.
> 
> Both my wife and I thought the traditional dining on the CZ and SWC was great. On the SWC I had the steak and it was excellent, done just as ordered. She had the pasta dish whatever it is called and enjoyed it. Returning on the CZ we both had the salmon and we were impressed that it was cooked properly and not overdone and dry like many restaurants do. Also the desserts (we tried all 3) were great. She thought the chocolate torte was as good as anything she has had in a restaurant.
> 
> The flex dining was unfortunately another matter. On the way out we both had the enchilada, just OK. On the way home on the LSL we just had breakfast, I had the continental which was fine. We didn't have lunch or dinner as we were planning to go out with our kids when we got off.



When I go cross country in a couple weeks, I plan to take food with me on the LSL portion of the trip. This way, flex doesn't even need to be a thing.


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## lordsigma

I’m still giving Flynn the benefit of the doubt. The traditional dining being returned out west is excellent and superior to pre pandemic - you have to give the management some credit where credit is due - they did a good job with that restoration. There definitely appears to be a legitimate labor shortage that is driving some remaining issues. The new Acela first meals are also delicious and I think higher quality than pre pandemic - if they use this same vendor to revamp eastern LD dining as they’ve hinted I think we could end up with an acceptable product for the meals even if it isn’t full traditional dining. It does sound like they’ve heard the message on flexible dining. There’s much room for improvement. I think the positive things that have been done warrant a wait and see before judging what comes in the east.


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## cassie225

Well all I can say is I’m
all boostered up and ready to go when traditional comes back lol


----------



## Anthony V

lordsigma said:


> I’m still giving Flynn the benefit of the doubt. The traditional dining being returned out west is excellent and superior to pre pandemic - you have to give the management some credit where credit is due - they did a good job with that restoration. There definitely appears to be a legitimate labor shortage that is driving some remaining issues. The new Acela first meals are also delicious and I think higher quality than pre pandemic - if they use this same vendor to revamp eastern LD dining as they’ve hinted I think we could end up with an acceptable product for the meals even if it isn’t full traditional dining. It does sound like they’ve heard the message on flexible dining. There’s much room for improvement. I think the positive things that have been done warrant a wait and see before judging what comes in the east.


Another thing that sets Flynn apart from Anderson is that Flynn has repeatedly reiterated his support for the existing LD trains. Anderson was so brash about them and planned to discontinue 5-10 of them and turn the remaining ones into land cruises. That would've been disaster for not only the ones that would've been cut as part of Anderson's plan, but also for the ones that survive, as turning them into land cruises would make them even easier targets for conservatives in Congress, because they would've no longer served as transportation essentials for rural communities, but as luxury excursion services for older and wealthier people. However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.


----------



## Willbridge

Rambling Robert said:


> Has guidelines or decisions been made at the Fall 2021 RPA/Amtrak meeting in Virginia?
> 
> Over the summer Amtrak management was considering traditional dining to Coach if available because of sleeper lack of demand.
> 
> I have been telling potential Coach riders what great food Amtrak had for Coach western trains and the LSL. There has to be a more positive change in dining for me to continue talking about .it. I’m sure this goes true for hundreds of regular riders



One of the interesting experiences that I had on my DEN<>PDX <> SSD coach and business class trip this summer was that as almost all parts of the train service were canceled for a variety of reasons I had to switch to bus travel. The food picked up at truck stops was similar to what Amtrak offers coach passengers but the much greater variety let me enjoy healthier items.


----------



## MARC Rider

Anthony V said:


> However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.


Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.


----------



## Willbridge

MARC Rider said:


> Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.



History is the other way around. Many of the regional trains were a lot cheaper and more practical because a long-distance train was already serving lines, stations, crew bases, and terminal facilities. The trouble with the big picture is that people working only with 8½ x 11 maps of the U.S. and Canada miss opportunities and incur needless losses.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Willbridge said:


> History is the other way around. Many of the regional trains were a lot cheaper and more practical because a long-distance train was already serving lines, stations, crew bases, and terminal facilities. The trouble with the big picture is that people working only with 8½ x 11 maps of the U.S. and Canada miss opportunities and incur needless losses.


I think I get what you're saying here, but I wonder if you could expand on it or link to something for further elucidation.


----------



## jis

In India when they choose to compute the P&L of a train, they usually use some slot cost for the use of the route. This includes basic cost of stations used etc. Of course higher speed trains are charged higher slot prices.

I guess the the infrastructure part of the company computes how to allocate stations costs to slot costs somehow. It is obscure and the train operator side does not see that detail. They just use the slot cost for their accounting and if they require some extra-ordinary service at a station (handling through and sectional carriages - adding and removing etc. becoming more and more uncommon) that is added on separately. F&B is a completely separate thing which may be provided either by a subsidiary IRCTC or a private contractor, or be exclusively left to the E-Catering thing where a passenger registers with an E-catering outfit and places orders for food via a smartphone, and receives food at an appropriate station stop. The train operator actually gets a small cut for bringing the business to them, the market is so enormous.

So you can almost immediately see how the business decisions in general might favor more service rather than less, which is really the whole point of running such services.


----------



## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.


Long distance routes should not be an expense for states and locals as they should exceed the 700 mile limit. It's the shorter ones that are supposed to have the local shell out some cash.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Long distance routes should not be an expense for states and locals as they should exceed the 700 mile limit. It's the shorter ones that are supposed to have the local shell out some cash.


The problem with Amtrak management has been that they have somehow invented a totally unintended mandate to not start any new LD service without explicit permission from the Congress. And since Congress itself does not believe they really said that, now we are all stuck between a rock of idiocy of Amtrak management and a hard place. I guess Congress will have to charge up another 2x4 to apply to the posterior of Amtrak management. They are like an Ass who is being asked to move.


----------



## joelkfla

What does this all this have to do with "Dining"?


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> What does this all this have to do with "Dining"?


Lack of LD trains with Diners makes the Dining problem disappear?  No new trains keeps from exacerbating the problem


----------



## Willbridge

danasgoodstuff said:


> I think I get what you're saying here, but I wonder if you could expand on it or link to something for further elucidation.


There are a couple of points to consider. I won't go into too much detail because of thread drift and previous threads.

+ The historical experience since the beginning of Amtrak has been that added regional services have shared with the national network. I can't recall an example of one that didn't.

+ The part that might be arguable was my reference to 8½ x 11 maps that grew out of my experience in Canada where sweeping decisions in Ottawa created all sorts of unforeseen problems west of the Great Lakes. Amtrak is inclined to behave the same way as the dining saga illustrates but there are more checks and balances on it.

What I was advocating is more precise revenue and cost forecasts that can be applied to specific routes. A regional train between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati would serve a big market but it would require some expensive new facilities from Day One, regardless of the schedule. A regional train between Seattle and Eugene doesn't serve as big a market but less in the way of new facilities would be required. This leads to the biggest chicken or egg discussion: the economics of tri-weekly service. It also leads to questions as to whether adding trains to existing routes might in some cases make more sense than adding new routes.

These are similar issues to what I experienced with transit systems. It was not uncommon for service changes to be costed with capital and operating costs rolled into hourly rates together. That went back to streetcar days. In a slowly changing system that's a long-term problem that may never be noticed and understood. When there are boom or bust changes the consequences are bad over runs or under runs versus the budget. In both Edmonton and Denver we got the forecasting under control with more precise costing.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Hit or miss coffee service seems to be the norm on short-staffed trains. My recent Silver Service round trip to Florida had no sleeper car coffee. The Star had one SCA to service two sleepers and the Meteor had two SCAs to service 3 sleepers.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

TheVig said:


> On the Crescent yesterday going from CLT to PHL, wife and I managed to survive another round of flex meals.


You can always request a burger or something from the cafe car. Most SCAs will gladly do it though some will seek permission from their supervisor first. That was true in my case!


----------



## JWM

New member and an ancient one at 71 who was able to ride a number of great trains as a kid and teenager. I once remember a trip on the Super Chief when the dining car steward told me about feeding 350 pax out of a 36 seat dining car at the holidays. In any event, here is my take on the present dining situation. The western trains have seen great improvement and decent china will help as well. It would be nice if the different trains had different menus, but the current standard one seems well executed. The next step, in my opinion, is to restore full dining car service to the LSL, CL, Crescent, Silver Star and Meteor, Cardinal, CNO and TE. Also, once we get better control over Covid-19, open up the dining car for coach passengers as well. I do remember from history that very, very few railroads ever covered costs on dining. They were loss leaders to attract passengers which the Santa Fe did up until the end. Thanks and hope I haven't rambled.


----------



## JWM

Anthony V said:


> Another thing that sets Flynn apart from Anderson is that Flynn has repeatedly reiterated his support for the existing LD trains. Anderson was so brash about them and planned to discontinue 5-10 of them and turn the remaining ones into land cruises. That would've been disaster for not only the ones that would've been cut as part of Anderson's plan, but also for the ones that survive, as turning them into land cruises would make them even easier targets for conservatives in Congress, because they would've no longer served as transportation essentials for rural communities, but as luxury excursion services for older and wealthier people. However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.


Anderson was an "airline man" and glad he is gone. Rail is so different and should be..


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Upcoming travel on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... has me thinking... I did order the kosher meals which are a step above flex... but am thinking a good loaf of bread, some cheese or peanut butter may be a great idea. Rumors have it that the flex stuff will be replaced in the spring with actually edible food... we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Upcoming travel on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... has me thinking... I did order the kosher meals which are a step above flex... but am thinking a good loaf of bread, some cheese or peanut butter may be a great idea. Rumors have it that the flex stuff will be replaced in the spring with actually edible food... we'll just have to wait and see.


We have to wait that long?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

JWM said:


> New member and an ancient one at 71 who was able to ride a number of great trains as a kid and teenager. I once remember a trip on the Super Chief when the dining car steward told me about feeding 350 pax out of a 36 seat dining car at the holidays. In any event, here is my take on the present dining situation. The western trains have seen great improvement and decent china will help as well. It would be nice if the different trains had different menus, but the current standard one seems well executed. The next step, in my opinion, is to restore full dining car service to the LSL, CL, Crescent, Silver Star and Meteor, Cardinal, CNO and TE. Also, once we get better control over Covid-19, open up the dining car for coach passengers as well. I do remember from history that very, very few railroads ever covered costs on dining. They were loss leaders to attract passengers which the Santa Fe did up until the end. Thanks and hope I haven't rambled.


Amen!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> We have to wait that long?


We're all impatient... and pardon the pun... 'fed up with flex!' Real food can't come soon enough!


----------



## JWM

20th Century Rider said:


> We're all impatient... and pardon the pun... 'fed up with flex!' Real food can't come soon enough!


"Flexible Dining" sounds like an oxymoron. Dining is not flexible. It is sitting at a table covered with a cloth, a cloth napkin, real china, ditto
flatware, a flower or two etc. "Eating" is what you do when it is plopped on your lap or on a tray, in a plastic container that was "nuked" and brought to you. Amtrak, please copy in the East, Midwest and South.


----------



## TEREB

Currently on 97, no cod and the chicken Marsala is not available. They replaced it with chicken Rosa. It’s chicken in a vodka sauce. We’ll see how it is after 5.


----------



## JWM

Good luck and maybe the vodka is a good idea Safe trip and anxious to see how this turns out.


----------



## TEREB

Chicken Rosa. This is what my husband ordered. I tasted and it was not bad. He said it was ok. 
dinner was served with a little salad with eitherKraft ranch or iItalian dressing. Tiny salad but it was enough. Roll with butter. I ordered the shrimp and andouille sausage. OMG.SO SALTY. Good thing I saved my salad for last. Took that salt taste out of my mouth. We chose not to have their brownie/blonde as my son packed us Italian cookies. We brought our own wine. Although it wasn’t a great/good dinner. It did fill our tummies.


----------



## Sidney

It would be nice if one of the Silver trains could have traditional dining.Charge more for the sleepers. Good food is such an essential factor on an overnight LD train.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> It would be nice if one of the Silver trains could have traditional dining.Charge more for the sleepers. Good food is such an essential factor on an overnight LD train.


I agree, the trains that should get traditional dining (first) are the Crescent, Cardinal, TE, and one of the Silvers. They're the longest route s


----------



## TEREB

Sidney said:


> It would be nice if one of the Silver trains could have traditional dining.Charge more for the sleepers. Good food is such an essential factor on an overnight LD train.



I don’t know about that. If I took the October 15 train as I originally planned,the bedroom fare would have been $1,700+.I would have not liked to pay extra for traditional dining. 
which train would you choose? Someone will be upset.


----------



## toddinde

lordsigma said:


> Not sure if this was meant to be belligerent or a joke but not really - I’m not much of a management type - I could never fire people or eliminate jobs - if I was actually in charge I’d probably be one opposing the job cuts at the time they went contemporary at the beginning - I also very much oppose the closing down of staffed stations. It’s more about being a realist and trying to look at it from a business perspective and what I think is going to happen given the climate in their front office and what I think could be a better middle ground solution putting myself in their shoes. If anything I’m a pragmatist and I just try to look at things from all perspectives.
> 
> I think I said before - you’re not going to hear me complain if they go traditional sit down dining on every train because of course that is the best experience and maybe absent mica and with the new bill maybe they will. I just said I’m not sure it’s necessary on every train and I don’t see them doing it, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to gripe if they do - I’m a supporter of long distance trains. We’ll just have to wait and see. For me it’s not all about the food on eastern trains and while I can tolerate the flex meals myself on a one night journey (I did find they got old on a two night journal on my cross country trip and greatly enjoyed the restored traditional dining for my last leg home) I know a lot of people don’t and there’s not good choices for those with dietary restrictions so we do need to see some kind of improvement at least and if they go all out great. I mean no disrespect to anyone that disagrees with my predictions/thoughts - I’m not the monster you may think


The sit down diner is great, as you say. It should be a feature on all long distance trains. But other trains need an improvement in food service. I’m thinking of trains like the Palmetto, International, etc, that take a whole day from end point to end point. Something like the old Milwaukee Road Buffeterias, or like the European dining cars that have a carry out bar as you enter the car, a kitchen, and table seating on the other side.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

TEREB said:


> my son packed us Italian cookies



Italian cookies! The solution to flex dining and every other nasty food trend! 

When we were growing up and my cousins were coming down from Connecticut for a visit, my aunt who lived next door would go to the Italian bakery and get a huge plate of Italian cookies. After my cousins arrived and the welcoming hugs, we all had coffee or tea and those wonderful Italian cookies!

Sorry, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Amtrak dining, but the mention of those cookies brought back such wonderful memories.

I’m sure they were the most delicious things you’ve had on the trip—what a thoughtful gesture from your son!


----------



## TEREB

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Italian cookies! The solution to flex dining and every other nasty food trend!
> 
> When we were growing up and my cousins were coming down from Connecticut for a visit, my aunt who lived next door would go to the Italian bakery and get a huge plate of Italian cookies. After my cousins arrived and the welcoming hugs, we all had coffee or tea and those wonderful
> I’m sure they were the most delicious things you’ve had on the trip—what a thoughtful gesture from your son!


Yes. Family and good food/cookies. Great memories. My son knows how to make his mama happy. COOKIES


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Italian cookies! The solution to flex dining and every other nasty food trend!
> 
> When we were growing up and my cousins were coming down from Connecticut for a visit, my aunt who lived next door would go to the Italian bakery and get a huge plate of Italian cookies. After my cousins arrived and the welcoming hugs, we all had coffee or tea and those wonderful Italian cookies!
> 
> Sorry, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Amtrak dining, but the mention of those cookies brought back such wonderful memories.
> 
> I’m sure they were the most delicious things you’ve had on the trip—what a thoughtful gesture from your son!


Wow!!!! And I must add this regarding Italian cookies... the one and only time on Amtrak that I made lifelong friends was with a couple from the Gary Indiana area... true and sincere devote dedicated Catholics... for so many years they send the most delicious home made cookies at Christmas and I return the favor with gift boxes but nothing can compare to those cookies! As the saying goes... 'Only on a train!'


----------



## Cal

toddinde said:


> The sit down diner is great, as you say. It should be a feature on all long distance trains. But other trains need an improvement in food service. I’m thinking of trains like the Palmetto, International, etc, that take a whole day from end point to end point. Something like the old Milwaukee Road Buffeterias, or like the European dining cars that have a carry out bar as you enter the car, a kitchen, and table seating on the other side.


I think the Surfliner and it's 8 hour run would count as well.


----------



## Cal

Was thinking about making a new thread for this, but I think this thread works fine. 


The Coast Starlight serves dinner on the final day for both directions. The train is scheduled to arrive at it's final stop between at 8PM and 9 PM respectively. 

The Sunset Limited train #2, which arrives into NOL at 9:40 PM if on time, does not serve dinner on the final day. Why? The Sunset generally has less sleepers, so generally less passengers, and arrives considerably later than the Starlight. I don't see much of a reason to not serve dinner other than the amount of food they must load on the train in LA (doesn't it have to cover the trip there and back?). 


And now looking at other trains, the Zephyr #6 does not serve lunch on the final day, yet it is scheduled to arrive at the same time as the Chief which does.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> Was thinking about making a new thread for this, but I think this thread works fine.
> 
> 
> The Coast Starlight serves dinner on the final day for both directions. The train is scheduled to arrive at it's final stop between at 8PM and 9 PM respectively.
> 
> The Sunset Limited train #2, which arrives into NOL at 9:40 PM if on time, does not serve dinner on the final day. Why? The Sunset generally has less sleepers, so generally less passengers, and arrives considerably later than the Starlight. I don't see much of a reason to not serve dinner other than the amount of food they must load on the train in LA (doesn't it have to cover the trip there and back?).
> 
> 
> And now looking at other trains, the Zephyr #6 does not serve lunch on the final day, yet it is scheduled to arrive at the same time as the Chief which does.


Have they stopped serving Dinner on #2 going into New Orleans? Every time I rode it ( 2019 was the last time) I was served Dinner in the Diner in Louisiana.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Was thinking about making a new thread for this, but I think this thread works fine.
> 
> 
> The Coast Starlight serves dinner on the final day for both directions. The train is scheduled to arrive at it's final stop between at 8PM and 9 PM respectively.
> 
> The Sunset Limited train #2, which arrives into NOL at 9:40 PM if on time, does not serve dinner on the final day. Why? The Sunset generally has less sleepers, so generally less passengers, and arrives considerably later than the Starlight. I don't see much of a reason to not serve dinner other than the amount of food they must load on the train in LA (doesn't it have to cover the trip there and back?).
> 
> 
> And now looking at other trains, the Zephyr #6 does not serve lunch on the final day, yet it is scheduled to arrive at the same time as the Chief which does.



When I rode the Zephyr back in June we got lunch on the last day


----------



## JWM

Cal said:


> Was thinking about making a new thread for this, but I think this thread works fine.
> 
> 
> The Coast Starlight serves dinner on the final day for both directions. The train is scheduled to arrive at it's final stop between at 8PM and 9 PM respectively.
> 
> The Sunset Limited train #2, which arrives into NOL at 9:40 PM if on time, does not serve dinner on the final day. Why? The Sunset generally has less sleepers, so generally less passengers, and arrives considerably later than the Starlight. I don't see much of a reason to not serve dinner other than the amount of food they must load on the train in LA (doesn't it have to cover the trip there and back?).
> 
> 
> And now looking at other trains, the Zephyr #6 does not serve lunch on the final day, yet it is scheduled to arrive at the same time as the Chief which does.


Amtrak, throughout its history, has been consistently inconsistent. Meal times are a meal times not optional.


----------



## happycamper

Railspike said:


> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.
> 
> 
> In this Pandemic age, tasty ready-to-eat microwavable entrees are readily available from various sources (meals by mail, grocery stores, and restaurants, etc.). There is no excuse for serving terrible tasting food on Amtrak. Unless of course, that's the goal. They have to know the food they are serving is terrible based on reviews. Is it because of the cost to Amtrak? Wouldn't this be an opportune time to try different recipes or contract an outside supplier?
> 
> I’ve been riding Amtrak since 1979. I don't ride Amtrak for the food. But dining is part of the experience and cost. I have not, nor will I take another trip until either the Flex dining food improves or the full-service diner returns. If Amtrak is going to charge a hefty price for sleeper space and include meals, then the food ought to be edible.
> 
> 
> With this in mind, I would think a smart food truck operator could do well meeting the train at longer stops near a mealtime. The only question, how fast could the truck get the food out to customers who have a time constraint?



A few years ago we rode the EB and when we stopped in Minot ND in the morning there was a food tuck with great coffee and muffins... YUMMY!


----------



## drdumont

That's the reason we take our survival kit on the Eagle. Keurig one cupper, electric cooler chest, "the pantry", corn squeezings, and the micro microwave oven. AMTRAK doesn't even apologize that the slop they serve doesn't even resemble the presentation in their menus, ads and promos. False advertising, IMHO.


----------



## drdumont

[URL='https://www.amtraktrains.com/goto/post?id=870588' said:


> Railspike said:[/URL]
> I am a relatively new member so if this topic has been discussed, please disregard it. Sidney recently asked the question, "Does Amtrak know how their customers feel about Flex dining?". Good question. I know I have let them know how terrible it is. Others have described it as "mystery meat", "vomit", "had to throw in the trash", etc.



AMTRAK is VERY much aware of the total dissatisfaction with their nukeable garbage. Someone somewhere convinced them to spend a boatload of money developing this crap, and they probably have a warehousefull of it somewhere they don't want to write off. 
Good Lord, if they had made an agreement with Stouffer or Marie Callender, or one of the manufacturers of stuff that is actually reasonably tasty, they would have saved themselves a lot of really bad PR.
Heads should roll on this one.


----------



## Sidney

happycamper said:


> A few years ago we rode the EB and when we stopped in Minot ND in the morning there was a food tuck with great coffee and muffins... YUMMY!


Think it's called the Buzz. Any station with a longish stop should have a place to buy food and drink. Especially for Coach people and sleepers in the East and the Eagle.


----------



## tgstubbs1

drdumont said:


> That's the reason we take our survival kit on the Eagle. Keurig one cupper, electric cooler chest, "the pantry", corn squeezings, and the micro microwave oven. AMTRAK doesn't even apologize that the slop they serve doesn't even resemble the presentation in their menus, ads and promos. False advertising, IMHO.



Do you have more info on this? Maybe a picture?

" ....micro microwave oven. "


----------



## happycamper

Food truck Minot ND off Empire Builder.


----------



## joelkfla

happycamper said:


> Food truck Minot ND off Empire Builder.


Cute motto.

(What's a motto?)
(I dunno, what's a motto with you?)


----------



## JWM

drdumont said:


> AMTRAK is VERY much aware of the total dissatisfaction with their nukeable garbage. Someone somewhere convinced them to spend a boatload of money developing this crap, and they probably have a warehousefull of it somewhere they don't want to write off.
> Good Lord, if they had made an agreement with Stouffer or Marie Callender, or one of the manufacturers of stuff that is actually reasonably tasty, they would have saved themselves a lot of really bad PR.
> Heads should roll on this one.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I much prefer my Irish ancestors "Gourmet Dinner" which was a potato and a bottle of Guiness.


----------



## JWM

I remember a June evening in 2019 going from Dresden to Berlin on a Czech train with a Czech restaurant car. We started with Czech sekt, then goulash soup followed by boiled beef, veggies and the lightest dumplings I ever had, ending with a cherry tart. The travel time was two hours! To read this about my country's rail passenger service makes me want to throw something.


----------



## MARC Rider

JWM said:


> I remember a June evening in 2019 going from Dresden to Berlin on a Czech train with a Czech restaurant car. We started with Czech sekt, then goulash soup followed by boiled beef, veggies and the lightest dumplings I ever had, ending with a cherry tart. The travel time was two hours! To read this about my country's rail passenger service makes me want to throw something.


I've had some pretty good food in Acela first class, and they usually serve me between the time the train starts moving and when the train enters the tunnel north if the station. And an open bar. But I wouldn't ride Acela first class, except that I have points and upgrade coupons. When I actually pay for the trip, I'm stuck with the cafe car. But, for goodness sakes, a 0:40 trip to Washington, or a 1:10 trip to Philly, or even a 2:30 trip to New York, any lack of food service isn't going to stop me from taking the train. I'm doing it because it's (1) faster than driving, and (2) allows me to avoid the traffic congestion and crazy drivers that infest our part of the country.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

drdumont said:


> AMTRAK is VERY much aware of the total dissatisfaction with their nukeable garbage. Someone somewhere convinced them to spend a boatload of money developing this crap, and they probably have a warehousefull of it somewhere they don't want to write off.
> Good Lord, if they had made an agreement with Stouffer or Marie Callender, or one of the manufacturers of stuff that is actually reasonably tasty, they would have saved themselves a lot of really bad PR.
> Heads should roll on this one.


Yup... with extensive traveling on the TE and Eastern LD trains on an upcoming trip I am trying to come up with some kind of a food plan to keep myself from starving with the Amtrak poor offerings. Ordered Kosher meals on those sections which are bland but a little better than the disgusting flex 'non-food' rations. Seasoning salt, hot sauce, garlic powder, walnuts, peanut butter and happy juice. When I can get to a grocery store will buy prepared salad, a good loaf of bread, cheese, and fruit... and prepared chef's salad when I can find it. Nothing fancy but satisfying. Also have powdered coffee and no sugar lemonade mix... as I am trying to avoid carbs.

That and the sound of the horn... and the passing scenery... will make the trip a happy one.


----------



## Danib62

What about your loaf of hearty bread and peanut butter???


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Danib62 said:


> What about your loaf of hearty bread and peanut butter???


Of course... and with scattered walnuts in there...


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> Of course... and with scattered walnuts in there...


Bread has carbs? No wonder my blood sugar jumps when I have a loaf of crusty Italian bread lathed with butter. Here, I thought it was the butter that was the sole problem!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Bread has carbs? No wonder my blood sugar jumps when I have a loaf of crusty Italian bread lathed with butter. Here, I thought it was the butter that was the sole problem!


A brown bread with nuts and seeds digests slower... slowing sugar getting into the blood... and two slices only are what many of us who try to be careful with sugar intake do. It tastes good... and when you compare this healthy sandwich bite with a flex meal... hmmm... ya know!


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> Have they stopped serving Dinner on #2 going into New Orleans? Every time I rode it ( 2019 was the last time) I was served Dinner in the Diner in Louisiana.





lordsigma said:


> When I rode the Zephyr back in June we got lunch on the last day


Hmmm seems what happened is their meals listed on the website are inaccurate. How surprising


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> When I rode the Zephyr back in June we got lunch on the last day


Was your train running late?


----------



## toddinde

Cal said:


> I think the Surfliner and it's 8 hour run would count as well.


Definitely!


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> I agree, the trains that should get traditional dining (first) are the Crescent, Cardinal, TE, and one of the Silvers. They're the longest route s



If they brought traditional dining back to more routes I SUSPECT it would be based on sleeper ridership - not trip length. I’d suspect It would be one or both silvers and the lake shore. Could be wrong - just my suspicion. Traditional dining means two food service cars - those are the only routes running with two right now.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> If they brought traditional dining back to more routes I SUSPECT it would be based on sleeper ridership - not trip length. I’d suspect It would be one or both silvers and the lake shore. Could be wrong - just my suspicion. Traditional dining means two food service cars - those are the only routes running with two right now.


I agree, which is why I said should, not will.


----------



## denmarks

What is the main difference between Flexible and Traditional Dining? I do see that the menus are different. Which is better? Is traditional being phased in for all routes? What will the CZ have next April?


----------



## joelkfla

denmarks said:


> What is the main difference between Flexible and Traditional Dining? I do see that the menus are different. Which is better? Is traditional being phased in for all routes? What will the CZ have next April?


Flex dining lunch & dinner is all premade & microwaved or convection oven reheated (depending upon whom you ask) and served in the cooking containers. Breakfast is a limited selection of packaged items. Dessert is limited to a packaged snack, usually a brownie or blondie.

Traditional dining is prepared by a full crew in the kitchen. Some people say that traditional dining fare is also premade and reheated or finished off in the kitchen, but obviously at least some items are cooked to order, e.g. steaks, French toast, and the Artisan Grilled Cheese. And everything is plated prior to bring served.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

denmarks said:


> What is the main difference between Flexible and Traditional Dining? I do see that the menus are different. Which is better? Is traditional being phased in for all routes? What will the CZ have next April?



Flex is basically a TV dinner served in a disposable container. (I would take an Amy’s frozen dinner over any of the flex meals I’ve had). 

“Traditional Dining” is restaurant style food with food prepared like in a standard commercial kitchen for a chain restaurant like Applebee’s.


----------



## CTANut

joelkfla said:


> Flex dining lunch & dinner is all premade & microwaved or convection oven reheated (depending upon whom you ask) and served in the cooking containers. Breakfast is a limited selection of packaged items. Dessert is limited to a packaged snack, usually a brownie or blondie.
> 
> Traditional dining is prepared by a full crew in the kitchen. Some people say that traditional dining fare is also premade and reheated or finished off in the kitchen, but obviously at least some items are cooked to order, e.g. steaks, French toast, and the Artisan Grilled Cheese. And everything is plated prior to bring served.


I guess we can ask @Triley.


----------



## lordsigma

I think current traditional dining is better than Applebees these days!


----------



## Cal

CTANut said:


> I guess we can ask @Triley.


Or maybe @Acela150 (Hope you're doing good since the derailment, btw!)


----------



## Triley

CTANut said:


> I guess we can ask @Triley.



What’s the question you’d like me to jump on? How flex meals are cooked? What the menu will be like come April?



Cal said:


> Or maybe @Acela150 (Hope you're doing good since the derailment, btw!)



I wanted to make a joke, but I don’t want to detract from the seriousness of the Builder derailment.

i was in a very minor derailment after hitting a pickup truck three weeks ago, and I still find myself preparing for a jolt after I hear a horn pattern that seems a little too long.

My heart goes out to everyonewho was involved.


----------



## CTANut

Triley said:


> What’s the question you’d like me to jump on? How flex meals are cooked? What the menu will be like come April?
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to make a joke, but I don’t want to detract from the seriousness of the Builder derailment.
> 
> i was in a very minor derailment after hitting a pickup truck three weeks ago, and I still find myself preparing for a jolt after I hear a horn pattern that seems a little too long.
> 
> My heart goes out to everyonewho was involved.


Both.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> I think current traditional dining is better than Applebees these days!


As most know, the Flex program was 'enhanced' a few days ago. The slight improvement is that the meals have more taste and texture... and the salmon I had was quite good. But they continue to be too small to actually be called a meal. As a 'tapas' dish 
combined with other small dishes, there could be enough 'quantity' to call it a meal. Or if the size was doubled, these could be considered a full meal. But as is now, it's a snack meal.

The salad can't be called a 'course' because it's just about one bite of food... as a 'course' item, the salad should be much larger and contain some kind of cheese and / or croutons.

The small packaged brownie, while rich and satisfying, gets old because there is no variety.

I would like to see the meals include: high quality packaged salads / perhaps a larger salad with protein as a chef salad, sandwiches, variety of desserts... and if prep resources are limited... these could easily be stored in refrigerated areas. But there is no reason why there can't be more quantity and variety on single night journeys... where fares are as high as the planes flying above. Flex meals deserve a D- due to lack of variety and quantity. To eat better bring along your own food.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> As most know, the Flex program was 'enhanced' a few days ago. The slight improvement is that the meals have more taste and texture... and the salmon I had was quite good. But they continue to be too small to actually be called a meal. As a 'tapas' dish
> combined with other small dishes, there could be enough 'quantity' to call it a meal. Or if the size was doubled, these could be considered a full meal. But as is now, it's a snack meal.
> 
> The salad can't be called a 'course' because it's just about one bite of food... as a 'course' item, the salad should be much larger and contain some kind of cheese and / or croutons.
> 
> The small packaged brownie, while rich and satisfying, gets old because there is no variety.
> 
> I would like to see the meals include: high quality packaged salads / perhaps a larger salad with protein as a chef salad, sandwiches, variety of desserts... and if prep resources are limited... these could easily be stored in refrigerated areas. But there is no reason why there can't be more quantity and variety on single night journeys... where fares are as high as the planes flying above. Flex meals deserve a D- due to lack of variety and quantity. To eat better bring along your own food.
> 
> View attachment 24896
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 24897


Let us know how the breakfasts are if you have it. It appears the omlette was replaced with a new omlette and there is also a french toast option. I have also heard there is going to be a new breakfast sandwich to replace the Jimmy Dean - a bialy with sausage egg and cheese but that won't be available right away the thing I saw is target end of the month for that.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Let us know how the breakfasts are if you have it. It appears the omlette was replaced with a new omlette and there is also a french toast option. I have also heard there is going to be a new breakfast sandwich to replace the Jimmy Dean - a bialy with sausage egg and cheese but that won't be available right away the thing I saw is target end of the month for that.


It was small but very good… ask for tobacco for a bit of a kick. I don’t like a big breakfast as it weighs down… so this was excellent for me


----------



## Rasputin

That salad is so large, I don't see how you were able to hold it with only one hand. You must work out constantly.


----------



## alpha3

20th Century Rider said:


> The salad can't be called a 'course' because it's just about one bite of food... as a 'course' item, the salad should be much larger and contain some kind of cheese and / or croutons.


OH, c'mon, don't exaggerate. That salad is at least 1 1/2 bites!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

You betcha! I get my Popeye muscles from those massive salads!

BTW just boarded the TE at BLM for CHI running 2 hrs late so ya can’t say ‘at least the trains run on time!’


----------



## Todd

I'm heading from Buffalo, NY to Seattle (EB), then Coast Starlight to LA, then Southwest Chief back to Buffalo...Should I be good for traditional dining other than the Buffalo to Chicago and Chicago to Buffalo LSL segments? (Which are pretty much sleeping the whole way both times based on schedule, maybe breakfast)...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Todd said:


> I'm heading from Buffalo, NY to Seattle (EB), then Coast Starlight to LA, then Southwest Chief back to Buffalo...Should I be good for traditional dining other than the Buffalo to Chicago and Chicago to Buffalo LSL segments? (Which are pretty much sleeping the whole way both times based on schedule, maybe breakfast)...


You will enjoy indulgent dining most of the way except the East of CHI on LSI. Please have an extra piece of carrot cake for me. Yum!


----------



## Cal

Todd said:


> I'm heading from Buffalo, NY to Seattle (EB), then Coast Starlight to LA, then Southwest Chief back to Buffalo...Should I be good for traditional dining other than the Buffalo to Chicago and Chicago to Buffalo LSL segments? (Which are pretty much sleeping the whole way both times based on schedule, maybe breakfast)...


Yep


----------



## 20th Century Rider

alpha3 said:


> OH, c'mon, don't exaggerate. That salad is at least 1 1/2 bites!


Actually it would 2 or 3 for that big bite. It’s like when you go to the grocery store and they want you to sample salad dressing they Give you a sprig of green in a plastic cup … a nibble at best


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I just checked the Amtrak website. For the Eastern LD trains, they finally have the new Flex Menu posted!


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Correction: The Cardinal and the CONO don't have menus yet. A prompt to download the menu results in the following error message:
"Failed - No file". I'll assume Amtrak's IT Department will fix that some year!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I got that too… I believe they are on the process of updating their website… also no longer available are the food facts.

The only difference in the changes are that the casserole dishes taste batter and are of a higher quality. But only the size of a tapas dish or snack.

No improvement in the salad bite or those same old brownies.


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> It was small but very good… ask for tobacco Tabasco for a bit of a kick. I don’t like a big breakfast as it weighs down… so this was excellent for me


Right?


----------



## zephyr17

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Correction: The Cardinal and the CONO don't have menus yet. A prompt to download the menu results in the following error message:
> "Failed - No file". I'll assume Amtrak's IT Department will fix that some year!


Make no assumptions about Amtrak IT.

If a thousand chimps coded for a thousand years, you'd get Amtrak IT.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> The only difference in the changes are that the casserole dishes taste batter and are of a higher quality. But only the size of a tapas dish or snack.


Ew! Was the batter cooked? 

Batter and tobacco. Hmm! Who said the meals are better? Well, at least batter and tobacco are an improvement - hey, the tobacco is a vegetable!


----------



## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> The only difference in the changes are that the casserole dishes taste batter and are of a higher quality. But only the size of a tapas dish or snack.



Are the "casserole dishes" the same size the the ones from the previous version of flex meals? If so, that's plenty of food. One problem with food service these days is that the portions are too large. I can't even eat the full portions that are served at most restaurants.

Unfortunately I won't be able to personally try them out on my trip tomorrow, as I ordered the kosher meals. (Well, who knows, maybe they'll screw up delivery of the kosher meals and I will try them out, but perhaps that's not as likely in New York.)


----------



## Rambling Robert

Todd said:


> I'm heading from Buffalo, NY to Seattle (EB), then Coast Starlight to LA, then Southwest Chief back to Buffalo...Should I be good for traditional dining other than the Buffalo to Chicago and Chicago to Buffalo LSL segments? (Which are pretty much sleeping the whole way both times based on schedule, maybe breakfast)...


... if only the LSL Amtrak Cafe would sell WINGS (the real kind) and BEEF ON WEK au jus .... there’d never EVER be another food complaint.


----------



## Triley

CTANut said:


> Both.



Hopefully the LSA has time to take food preorders, that way there’s time to cook them in the oven. Otherwise, they’re likely being done in the microwave. They could be precooking popular entrees and putting them in the steam tray too, though.

I’ve got no idea what the menu will look like that far out. Honestly, aside from very rare occasions, we generally don’t find out about menu changes until a few weeks in advance at best.


----------



## drdumont

tgstubbs1 said:


> Do you have more info on this? Maybe a picture?
> 
> " ....micro microwave oven. "


Take a look at Amazon. They have a number of small ones. I tote mine in a rollaboard, which contains my coffeemaker, and some supplies in the cavity.


----------



## drdumont

joelkfla said:


> Flex dining lunch & dinner is all premade & microwaved or convection oven reheated (depending upon whom you ask) and served in the cooking containers. Breakfast is a limited selection of packaged items. Dessert is limited to a packaged snack, usually a brownie or blondie.
> 
> Traditional dining is prepared by a full crew in the kitchen. Some people say that traditional dining fare is also premade and reheated or finished off in the kitchen, but obviously at least some items are cooked to order, e.g. steaks, French toast, and the Artisan Grilled Cheese. And everything is plated prior to bring served.


---------------------------------------------
Indeed, there was some preprepared and blanched/precooked/Cryovaced food. Mashed potatoes were instant but were the good kind. Corn and green beans were canned/reheated, just like at home. Steaks were semi cooked, Cryovaced and grilled. Eggs were prepared fresh. We even had grits sometimes on the Crescent! I think some of the FSAs would bring seasonings and condiments, including Tabasco A-1, and Worcestershire, when AMTRAK did not supply it.
It was in the main very tasty, plated, as you say, in a very nice presentation. 
The original china and silver was replaced with hard plastic disposable dishes, but still stamped metal flatware.Eventually plastic cups, cardboard cups and individual containers of wine, milk, and of course, beer.
Sodas (Pepsi, then - YAYYY! - CocaCola) in cans. An actual cooking staff downstairs in the Superliners and in the galley in Viewliners. 
When I was commuting weekly from AUS-FTW, I named the head cook "Chef DuJour", and had an a=engraved tag for him to wear. He never got grief from management about it.
The execrable nuked garbage, lack of presentation and crudity of service nowadays, compounded with overstretching the Food Service Attendants is a huge smirch upon the AMTRAK escutcheon and should be remedied forthwith.


----------



## drdumont

Triley said:


> Hopefully the LSA has time to take food preorders, that way there’s time to cook them in the oven. Otherwise, they’re likely being done in the microwave. They could be precooking popular entrees and putting them in the steam tray too, though.
> 
> I’ve got no idea what the menu will look like that far out. Honestly, aside from very rare occasions, we generally don’t find out about menu changes until a few weeks in advance at best.



AFAIK, they entrees are nuked. But if they are sometimes heated in the oven, it might explain the overcooked on he perimeter and undercooked in the center slop I have experienced. This was the reason I went to bringing my own.


----------



## Triley

drdumont said:


> AFAIK, they entrees are nuked. But if they are sometimes heated in the oven, it might explain the overcooked on he perimeter and undercooked in the center slop I have experienced. This was the reason I went to bringing my own.


…If they were cooked in the microwave it would could be undercooked and overcooked at the same to time, not if they were done in the oven.

The only entree that came out of the oven terrible was the omelette. That was actually better in the microwave.

But again, it was preferred that the meals be done in the oven, if time allowed.


----------



## alpha3

zephyr17 said:


> Make no assumptions about Amtrak IT.
> 
> If a thousand chimps coded for a thousand years, you'd get Amtrak IT.


OMG........I just spewed my drink everywhere, still chuckling. LOLOLOL!


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> It was small but very good… ask for tobacco for a bit of a kick. I don’t like a big breakfast as it weighs down… so this was excellent for me


Which breakfast did you do.


----------



## tgstubbs1

drdumont said:


> Take a look at Amazon. They have a number of small ones. I tote mine in a rollaboard, which contains my coffeemaker, and some supplies in the cavity.


I found some smaller ones... not exactly miniature though. 

Does yours fit in a regular bag?


----------



## JWM

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I just checked the Amtrak website. For the Eastern LD trains, they finally have the new Flex Menu posted!


Too bad they didn't announce going back to REAL dining.


----------



## JWM

Triley said:


> …If they were cooked in the microwave it would could be undercooked and overcooked at the same to time, not if they were done in the oven.
> 
> The only entree that came out of the oven terrible was the omelette. That was actually better in the microwave.
> 
> But again, it was preferred that the meals be done in the oven, if time allowed.


Remembering the sick U.S. Military joke about MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat) was "Meals Rejected by Ethiopians".


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Which breakfast did you do.


Hi! Just between trains and no to tobacco... tabasco! I did get the omelet breakfast and it was small but very good!


----------



## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> Are the "casserole dishes" the same size the the ones from the previous version of flex meals? If so, that's plenty of food. One problem with food service these days is that the portions are too large. I can't even eat the full portions that are served at most restaurants.


Too large? yes, only if you can stomach eating the whole flex meal. I end up picking and choosing based on the salt content, the likelihood of chemicals, the condition of my stomach and whether some of it is still cold. 

As to restaurants, that's what take-home packaging is for - to get a second meal. Once, in Albuquerque, I ordered the full rack of beef ribs from the County Line BBQ because it was about 50% more than the 1/4 rack. I got 3 more meals out of it.

As to flex food, the only reason to ask for a "doggie bag" is to use it as ant and roach poison.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Hi! Just between trains and no to tobacco... tabasco! I did get the omelet breakfast and it was small but very good!
> View attachment 24916


Looks 10 times better than the former spinach omelette


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> Are the "casserole dishes" the same size the the ones from the previous version of flex meals? If so, that's plenty of food. One problem with food service these days is that the portions are too large. I can't even eat the full portions that are served at most restaurants.
> 
> Unfortunately I won't be able to personally try them out on my trip tomorrow, as I ordered the kosher meals. (Well, who knows, maybe they'll screw up delivery of the kosher meals and I will try them out, but perhaps that's not as likely in New York.)



RE: newest version of flex - everything's the same as before except that the quality and taste of the dishes has improved considerably. IMHO it should be enough food for most folks... however, portion sizes tend to be small. If the salad were larger and had more to it such as some cheese / croutons / which are included in many packaged salads, this would be a good meal. Many AU'ers including myself would like to see more diverse selections such as sandwiches, chef salads, and fruit.

After this cross country on Amtrak I am going to do a review comparing the updated flex with kosher offerings. I definitely feel the kosher meals are more satisfying and a slightly more healthy choice than flex... and am enjoying them on this trip. IMHO the new flex bkfst tastes better than the Kosher... but excludes role etc. For me the flex bkfst is perfect because I don't want to weigh myself down with a heavy meal in the AM... although it may not be enough food for others. With the Kosher breakfast you can slather on the included cream cheese and bask in tabasco if you like. Lots of opinions and ideas! Pics below: kosher vs flex...

These are my personal opinions... and I remain respectful of other points of view even when they are different than mine.


----------



## TEREB

We got off the southbound Meteor the day before the new flex meals were added. My main complaint about these meals is that they are *WAY OVER* *SALTED *and way overcooked. Ruins the texture, and in the case of the broccoli, a mushy stench. 
There was no cod but Chicken Rosa was offered. My husband had that and said it was not bad. Wish the salad was larger. The Jimmy Dean breakfast was not bad either. We also ordered cold cereal, muffin and yogurt and chose to have those items for lunch. 
If traditional dining is not offered the next time we make this trip, I’ll fill my lunch bag with the wonderful offerings from the Metropolitan Lounge to carry onboard. Northbound I’ll get sandwiched from Publix.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TEREB said:


> We got off the southbound Meteor the day before the new flex meals were added. My main complaint about these meals is that they are *WAY OVER* *SALTED *and way overcooked. Ruins the texture, and in the case of the broccoli, a mushy stench.
> There was no cod but Chicken Rosa was offered. My husband had that and said it was not bad. Wish the salad was larger. The Jimmy Dean breakfast was not bad either. We also ordered cold cereal, muffin and yogurt and chose to have those items for lunch.
> If traditional dining is not offered the next time we make this trip, I’ll fill my lunch bag with the wonderful offerings from the Metropolitan Lounge to carry onboard. Northbound I’ll get sandwiched from Publix.


The new flex meals taste much better but are tapas sized... do note that all these processed meals are high in sodium and fat. The Chicken Rosa that I had was very tasty and the pasta was not overcooked. They did make an effort to improve... but have a long way to go.


----------



## JoshP

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Correction: The Cardinal and the CONO don't have menus yet. A prompt to download the menu results in the following error message:
> "Failed - No file". I'll assume Amtrak's IT Department will fix that some year!



I guess Amtrak made the cut at IT department to save money by contract someone to run the site?

Rest assured, menu PDF are available: Onboard Dining | Amtrak Time Tables


----------



## MARC Rider

I just had my kosher meal on the LSL. It was pretty good. The main dish is heated separately and covered, and they give you a sealed box with all the cold stuff. You can have fun googling all the technical religious terms on the packaging, like "glatt kosher" and "mezonos," etc. I had the baked salmon on a bed of cannolini beans with some sweet potatoes and sugar snap peas. In the cold box they had a "mezonos" roll, a small and a bit dry chocolate cake, a tasty cabbage and carrot salad, and one of those airline-pack drink cups with natural spring water from a source outside of Istanbul, Turkey, of all places. I thought the salmon was a bit overcooked, but it wasn't dry, and it was pretty tasty. In particular, it wasn't too salty, which can be a problem with kosher meat dishes, as the kosher preparation involves salting raw meat, and sometimes people don't rinse off the salt adequately. But that wouldn't apply to fish.

I ordered the kosher beef entree (a pot roast) for my return trip on the Capitol Limited. I'll report on that, too, and also include pictures once I have them online.


----------



## niemi24s

JoshP said:


> Rest assured, menu PDF are available: Onboard Dining | Amtrak Time Tables


This listing does not include any of the Western LD trains and the menus it does list are dated 0221. More recent menus for all of the trains can be found here: Amtrak Onboard Dining


----------



## JoshP

niemi24s said:


> This listing does not include any of the Western LD trains and the menus it does list are dated 0221. More recent menus for all of the trains can be found here: Amtrak Onboard Dining


Have you realized that PDF on Amtrak is same on my site? Read it carefully


----------



## niemi24s

JoshP said:


> Have you realized that PDF on Amtrak is same on my site? Read it carefully


I thought I was fairly literate, but:

• please show me on your site where the menus for the CS, EB, CZ and SWC appear?
• are both Traditional _and_ Flexible Dining being offered on most of the Eastern LD trains?


----------



## dwebarts

JoshP said:


> I guess Amtrak made the cut at IT department to save money by contract someone to run the site?


They have a number of open IT jobs (though none that focus on UI/UX, which shows). I used to work with a Web Designer that left for a job with Amtrak. I think she only stayed a couple of years and moved on. I don't have her current info or I'd ask why (likely frustration).


----------



## Sidney

niemi24s said:


> I thought I was fairly literate, but:
> 
> • please show me on your site where the menus for the CS, EB, CZ and SWC appear?
> • are both Traditional _and_ Flexible Dining being offered on most of the Eastern LD trains?


Just flex dining on the Eastern trains and Texas Eagle. As far as I know it's either Traditional or Flex dining.


----------



## jis

Fortunately, FDA appears to be on the verge of setting some "salt" standards, so the over-salting issue might get handled if that effort works out.


----------



## lordsigma

Traditional Dining - California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited
Traditional Dining Dinner and Continental Breakfast - Auto Train
Flexible Dining: Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Texas Eagle


----------



## MARC Rider

MARC Rider said:


> I just had my kosher meal on the LSL. It was pretty good. The main dish is heated separately and covered, and they give you a sealed box with all the cold stuff. You can have fun googling all the technical religious terms on the packaging, like "glatt kosher" and "mezonos," etc. I had the baked salmon on a bed of cannolini beans with some sweet potatoes and sugar snap peas. In the cold box they had a "mezonos" roll, a small and a bit dry chocolate cake, a tasty cabbage and carrot salad, and one of those airline-pack drink cups with natural spring water from a source outside of Istanbul, Turkey, of all places. I thought the salmon was a bit overcooked, but it wasn't dry, and it was pretty tasty. In particular, it wasn't too salty, which can be a problem with kosher meat dishes, as the kosher preparation involves salting raw meat, and sometimes people don't rinse off the salt adequately. But that wouldn't apply to fish.
> 
> I ordered the kosher beef entree (a pot roast) for my return trip on the Capitol Limited. I'll report on that, too, and also include pictures once I have them online.


Now I had the kosher breakfast. Omelet with ratatouille and roast potatoes, plus a cold box with a small fruit salad, a sorry excuse for a bagel, and a dried out pastry and orange juice. The ratatouille and potatoes were good, the omelet was disgusting, orders of magnitude worse than the old flex omelet. I didn't even eat it. But now looks like I'm stuck with it on the return trip.


----------



## Barb Stout

20th Century Rider said:


> Hi! Just between trains and no to tobacco... tabasco! I did get the omelet breakfast and it was small but very good!
> View attachment 24916


Wow, I had totally fallen for the tobacco infusion. However, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about sausage which I could see might be smoke-flavored.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Barb Stout said:


> Wow, I had totally fallen for the tobacco infusion. However, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about sausage which I could see might be smoke-flavored.


Not a bad idea! But those little sausages packed a lot of flavor… yum!


----------



## Exvalley

I'd love to hear a first hand report on the enchiladas. I am hoping that it is a lower sodium option compared to the beef short ribs. (Wishful thinking, I know.)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Exvalley said:


> I'd love to hear a first hand report on the enchiladas. I am hoping that it is a lower sodium option compared to the beef short ribs. (Wishful thinking, I know.)



Won’t get real food again until going back out of CHI in a few… meanwhile am enjoying the kosher meals on cardinal, crescent, and the CONO.

But for a really good taco take the TE throu El Paso where the famous Taco lady has really good Mexican for pax to buy.

Oh my you got me watering for Tex mex but will be in NYC tonight where everything’s good!


----------



## Triley

Exvalley said:


> I'd love to hear a first hand report on the enchiladas. I am hoping that it is a lower sodium option compared to the beef short ribs. (Wishful thinking, I know.)



Beef short ribs - 630 calories, 41g total ft (20g saturated), 95mg cholesterol, *680mg sodium*, 45g carbs (9 dietary fiber, 4 total sugars), 21g protein.

Enchiladas - 540 calories, 11g fat (4g saturated), 0mg cholesterol, *690mg sodium*, 80g carbs (13g dietary fiber, 5g total sugars), 15g protein.


----------



## Exvalley

Triley said:


> Beef short ribs - 630 calories, 41g total ft (20g saturated), 95mg cholesterol, *680mg sodium*, 45g carbs (9 dietary fiber, 4 total sugars), 21g protein.
> 
> Enchiladas - 540 calories, 11g fat (4g saturated), 0mg cholesterol, *690mg sodium*, 80g carbs (13g dietary fiber, 5g total sugars), 15g protein.



That is a lot less sodium! The prior beef dish (with polenta) had 2,340mg of sodium. (source: http://amtrakfoodfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/AMTRAK-FALL-100119-02.pdf )

Less than 700mg is actually not bad.


----------



## JoshP

niemi24s said:


> I thought I was fairly literate, but:
> 
> • please show me on your site where the menus for the CS, EB, CZ and SWC appear?
> • are both Traditional _and_ Flexible Dining being offered on most of the Eastern LD trains?



I went in and checked, didn't realize that it was edited/corrected but it wasn't updated so I forced to update it and now it shows correctly. 

All Eastern LD trains are doing Flexible dining expect Auto Train. Silver Meteor will start Traditional dining starting in 2022, then all others will follow afterwards.


----------



## flitcraft

lordsigma said:


> I have also heard there is going to be a new breakfast sandwich to replace the Jimmy Dean - a bialy with sausage egg and cheese


Hmmm...bialy sounds very good, but who ever heard of a non-kosher bialy, so what's with the (probably) pork sausage along with cheese?? Tref city!


----------



## zephyr17

JoshP said:


> I went in and checked, didn't realize that it was edited/corrected but it wasn't updated so I forced to update it and now it shows correctly.
> 
> All Eastern LD trains are doing Flexible dining expect Auto Train. Silver Meteor will start Traditional dining starting in 2022, then all others will follow afterwards.


Source?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

flitcraft said:


> Hmmm...bialy sounds very good, but who ever heard of a non-kosher bialy, so what's with the (probably) pork sausage along with cheese?? Tref city!


Yup... and alot of food shops demoralize the beloved bagel by creating bagel and bacon... or bagel and ham...also trefa.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

What I find comical is the same menu is posted for each of the Traditional trains, as well as the flex trains. No more regional variety.


----------



## Cal

OlympianHiawatha said:


> What I find comical is the same menu is posted for each of the Traditional trains, as well as the flex trains. No more regional variety.


AFAIK Amtrak hasn't had regional variety in many years.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> But for a really good taco take the TE throu El Paso where the famous Taco lady has really good Mexican for pax to buy.
> 
> Oh my you got me watering for Tex mex but will be in NYC tonight where everything’s good!


TACO LADY? I am insultipated [sic] by your imposterably incorrectably [sic] answer. She is the famous BURRITO LADY. Please don't get them mixed up. The last thing we need is a justifiable invasion from our friends to the south for such a blunderbuss [sic].


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> TACO LADY? I am insultipated [sic] by your imposterably incorrectably [sic] answer. She is the famous BURRITO LADY. Please don't get them mixed up. The last thing we need is a justifiable invasion from our friends to the south for such a blunderbuss [sic].


DITTO!


----------



## zephyr17

OlympianHiawatha said:


> What I find comical is the same menu is posted for each of the Traditional trains, as well as the flex trains. No more regional variety.


Hasn't been for a long, long time.


----------



## Cal

On Instagram:


(From gwendolen_squires's story on Instagram"


In the picture of the salmon, the presentation looks amazing. Honestly, at first I didn't think it was even on the train. And that doesn't really look like the plastic plates to me, but it probably is. But glassware is shown in the third picture.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Interesting new article _almost_ confirming the return of traditional dining to coach passengers and the eastern trains. They'll only do it if they feel forced to by passenger demand and Congressional demand, basically, but it's more or less in the cards.


----------



## denmarks

20th Century Rider said:


> Yup... and alot of food shops demoralize the beloved bagel by creating bagel and bacon... or bagel and ham...also trefa.


I love bagel and lox and also bacon and sausage for breakfast.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

I'll eat a veggie burger with bacon, so not kosher is no problem for me.


----------



## PVD

Most but not all bread products like bagels or bialy would be Parve, neither meat or dairy, and barring unusual ingredients, Kosher. What you put on it is another story. 
But a fresh bagel or bialy from a good bagel store will be made without preservatives, and has vey little shelf life. The bagel place on my corner sells off all remaining at the end of the day in mixed bags of 5 at half price, great for freezing/toasting, but otherwise, they are chewy/rubbery by day two.. Very few "packaged" products can come close.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Hmmm seems what happened is their meals listed on the website are inaccurate. How surprising


Yup! How surprising and how inconsistent! Management operates on a whim! Glory me! Glory be!
Just my whimsical opinion


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> Yup! How surprising and how inconsistent! Management operates on a whim! Glory me! Glory be!
> Just my whimsical opinion


Amtrak management does NOT operate on a whim.

It operates on stupidity, bolstered by incompetence.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak management does NOT operate on a whim.
> 
> It operates on stupidity, bolstered by incompetence.


I gotta agree with you totally 100%!


----------



## OBS

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak management does NOT operate on a whim.
> 
> It operates on stupidity, bolstered by incompetence.


This became apparent to me my first year of employment. I was the LSA in the Dome Lounge on the Auto Train and some VP of passenger something came by and introduced himself. He then proceeded to "ask how thing were", " what could be improved", etc. I gave two or three suggestions, his eyes glazed over, He wrote nothing down, and He wandered off. I quickly learned that most Management was useless and had to identify who to actually approach to get things accomplished or resolved.....


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> This became apparent to me my first year of employment. I was the LSA in the Dome Lounge on the Auto Train and some VP of passenger something came by and introduced himself. He then proceeded to "ask how thing were", " what could be improved", etc. I gave two or three suggestions, his eyes glazed over, He wrote nothing down, and He wandered off. I quickly learned that most Management was useless and had to identify who to actually approach to get things accomplished or resolved.....


Unfortunately, today, this is true of not just Amtrak, but most large corporations, specially of the classical kind. A disturbingly large proportion of managers don't seem to have much deep knowledge about whatever is it that they are managing. They can only figure out some financial spreadsheets given to them and whatever is not captured in those, gets ignored even if those have more impact on the core business than whatever they can capture in a spreadsheet.

This revelation came to me when Mark Hurd, then CEO of HP (where I then worked), pretty much said that he cannot manage anything that cannot be measured in terms of numbers and placed on a spreadsheet. At a subsequent meeting I submitted a question stating "If all that you can manipulate are numbers on spreadsheets, why shouldn't you be replaced by a simple AI project?" Naturally that one fell on the cutting floor. So basically he manipulated the stock price higher, allowing me to sell my considerable stash of shares and options (for which of course I should be grateful I suppose ... afterall it did contribute mightily to my retirement, though none of it was in my tax deferred 401K), before things crashed and burned and HP was broken up into a dozen little companies naturally to get the most value. Mind you in the first place it had grown into the behemoth because of mergers that were extracting the most value too! But I digress....


----------



## MARC Rider

OBS said:


> I quickly learned that most Management was useless and had to identify who to actually approach to get things accomplished or resolved.....


This is not just Amtrak.....


----------



## TaseMeBro

Served tonight (10/23) aboard the Southwest Chief #3. Service was very good, presentation nice. Food good - the tamale appetizer (not shown) especially so.

As someone asked upthread, the plates were indeed plastic, but decent quality and Amtrak branded. Didn't, to me, detract from the meal at all. Wine was served in glassware, other drinks in plastic.


----------



## Cal

TaseMeBro said:


> Wine was served in glassware, other drinks in plastic.


----------



## IndyLions

Over the last week - I’ve been on the Zephyr with two different dining crews. The first (CHI-DEN) was dynamic and energetic and very attentive. Also happened to be very young. The food was presented very close to what you see in the publicity photos. It was still Amtrak with some warts, but it was a B+ for execution and an A+ for effort. Everyone in the Dining Room had a great time. Mistakes were made but they were apologetic when they happened and due to the effort being expended nobody cared.

The second crew (DEN-EMY) was the jaded, wet blanket bunch. Just looking to get the meal over with - with the least amount of effort possible. They’d bring you something, but you’d have to ask twice. Do you want a roll? You need to ask for it. They didn’t offer or even bring it as SOP. If they weren’t taking your order or bringing your food, they were nowhere to be found. The food looked nothing like the publicity photos. Yeah - it was the same food but you couldn’t tell by looking at it. This bunch would get a D for execution and an F for effort.

Of course, I’m no rookie - so the wet blanket bunch won’t spoil my trip. But I feel bad for those who had higher expectations and were disappointed.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

IndyLions said:


> Over the last week - I’ve been on the Zephyr with two different dining crews. The first (CHI-DEN) was dynamic and energetic and very attentive. Also happened to be very young. The food was presented very close to what you see in the publicity photos. It was still Amtrak with some warts, but it was a B+ for execution and an A+ for effort. Everyone in the Dining Room had a great time. Mistakes were made but they were apologetic when they happened and due to the effort being expended nobody cared.
> 
> The second crew (DEN-EMY) was the jaded, wet blanket bunch. Just looking to get the meal over with - with the least amount of effort possible. They’d bring you something, but you’d have to ask twice. Do you want a roll? You need to ask for it. They didn’t offer or even bring it as SOP. If they weren’t taking your order or bringing your food, they were nowhere to be found. The food looked nothing like the publicity photos. Yeah - it was the same food but you couldn’t tell by looking at it. This bunch would get a D for execution and an F for effort.
> 
> Of course, I’m no rookie - so the wet blanket bunch won’t spoil my trip. But I feel bad for those who had higher expectations and were disappointed.


This is definitely a flaw at Amtrak... employee attitudes are inconsistent and range from good to unacceptable... I recently experienced horrific rudeness and minimal service on the Cardinal. You are so right in your assessment... there is no excuse for any service which is less than stellar. All that said, Amtrak continues to have staffing and hiring issues which will only get worse on November 22 when the vaccination mandate goes into effect.

Good luck to all of us!


----------



## TaseMeBro

IndyLions said:


> Over the last week - I’ve been on the Zephyr with two different dining crews. The first (CHI-DEN) was dynamic and energetic and very attentive. Also happened to be very young. ....



This is very close to my experience - but among different members of the same crew aboard this train. The younger crew members have all been friendly, engaging, made a few jokes, etc. The older ones have been.. the polar opposite. It's a phenomena I've also seen with aircrews a number of times.

It's a shame the service isn't more consistent, but there's just so many human factors, training issues, and management factors I imagine are at play that I couldn't speculate on how to "fix" it.

Still a very nice trip, though.


----------



## Cal

On my SWC Trip in late July the LSA was fantastic. He made some corny, yet funny jokes over the PA, was engaging, fun, and got the job done. Presentation, I felt (although I am by far no expert in this), was great. I believe he also tried to get the Amtrak logo facing towards the person dining. 

The SA wasn't the same. She got the job done, but when we were seated for breakfast it took her a considerable time to come. Now, I get that she has other tables but it felt like a prolonged response. When she did come, service was not that engaging nor friendly. But the food did come fairly quick with good presentation.


----------



## neroden

I have pretty low standards for on-board service, but I have also experienced wild differentials. Some really great people (especially the crews out of Boston), and a few really hopelessly terrible ones who didn't do the basics *and* were rude about it.


----------



## Mr.Technician

Is the dining car open to coach passengers on long distance routes? I may take the CS from LA to EMY and would take coach. If not I'd make sure to pack enough food + supplement with the cafe car.


----------



## Rasputin

Mr.Technician said:


> Is the dining car open to coach passengers on long distance routes? I may take the CS from LA to EMY and would take coach. If not I'd make sure to pack enough food + supplement with the cafe car.


No. The dining car is not open to coach passengers from everything I have read.


----------



## Cal

Mr.Technician said:


> Is the dining car open to coach passengers on long distance routes? I may take the CS from LA to EMY and would take coach. If not I'd make sure to pack enough food + supplement with the cafe car.





Rasputin said:


> No. The dining car is not open to coach passengers from everything I have read.


Correct, *but *the diner is intended to open to business class passengers on the Starlight later this year. It won't nearly be as costly as a roomette, and will grant you access to the diner. Meals will most likely have to be paid for, they won't be in the price of the ticket. 

And this might be delayed.


----------



## Mr.Technician

Cal said:


> Correct, *but *the diner is intended to open to business class passengers on the Starlight later this year. It won't nearly be as costly as a roomette, and will grant you access to the diner. Meals will most likely have to be paid for, they won't be in the price of the ticket.
> 
> And this might be delayed.



That's good to know! Business class isn't typically offered on LD trains, right?


----------



## Cal

Mr.Technician said:


> That's good to know! Business class isn't typically offered on LD trains, right?


Correct, it's only the Starlight and the LSL AFAIK.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Cal said:


> Correct, it's only the Starlight and the LSL AFAIK.


And on the LSL, only the Boston to Albany leg, not to NYC


----------



## Rasputin

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> And on the LSL, only the Boston to Albany leg, not to NYC


Just to clarify, business class on the Lake Shore is offered between Boston and Chicago in the Boston - Chicago cafe car which has a section for business class seating. Passengers from New York can board the business section at Albany for the trip west of there. 

As a mixed blessing, business class passengers on the Lake Shore do not have access to the dining car for flex dining.

At least that is my understanding. Current observations would be welcome.


----------



## Sidney

There used to be 2 to 1 BC on the Cardinal. Why was that removed?


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> There used to be 2 to 1 BC on the Cardinal. Why was that removed?


Most likely because it needed a full Dinette, since that was the only food service car, and even Sleeper passengers had to be fed in it, and they did not wish to put in *shudder* two food service cars on the train even if they could leave one unstaffed. Typical Amtrak cut your nose to spite your face management.

Frankly the LSL needs a full length Cafe Car in addition to whatever they wish to use for a BC car.


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> Frankly the LSL needs a full length Cafe Car in addition to whatever they wish to use for a BC car.


The NY section needs a cafe or at least provide some cafe service items from the diner between New York and Albany like they do on the Empire Builder between Seattle and Spokane.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Most likely because it needed a full Dinette, since that was the only food service car, and even Sleeper passengers had to be fed in it, and they did not wish to put in *shudder* two food service cars on the train even if they could leave one unstaffed. Typical Amtrak cut your nose to spite your face management.
> 
> Frankly the LSL needs a full length Cafe Car in addition to whatever they wish to use for a BC car.,


The Cardinal always had a full Dinette, even when they had business class. When I rode business class BAL - CVS in 2016, and sleeper CHI - BAL in 2019, there was a full dinette, and the table seating seating in the 2x1 split bc/cafe car was for the BC passengers. The cafe part was unstaffed, but when I rode BC in 2016, they had laid out cans of soda and a coffee maker for self-service free drinks. If they've changed that, it must be for some other reason.


----------



## jis

Well, as I said they figured two food service cars was too much so that was that  No more BC for you  Mica must have given them a spanking when he saw so much food service!


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> Well, as I said they figured two food service cars was too much so that was that  No more BC for you  Mica must have given them a spanking when he saw so much food service!


It is probably the standard Amtrak business practice. They realized that business class on the Cardinal was becoming successful so it had to be eliminated.


----------



## Cal

Rasputin said:


> It is probably the standard Amtrak business practice. They realized that business class on the Cardinal was becoming successful so it had to be eliminated.


I mean if more passengers wanted to ride it, they would've had less of a case to keep it tri-weekly, and they can't have it go daily! That'd make too much sense.


----------



## dan

When coming from LA to Chicago, does the TE passengers have their own din ing car or must you walk through coach to get to the Sunset Limited dining car?


----------



## Rasputin

dan said:


> When coming from LA to Chicago, does the TE passengers have their own din ing car or must you walk through coach to get to the Sunset Limited dining car?


In the usual arrangement the Texas Eagle sleeper is on the rear of the Sunset between LA and San Antonio and you walk through the coach or coaches to reach the Sunset dining car and the Sightseer Lounge car. There is no separate dining car for the Texas Eagle sleeper
passengers. 

Between San Antonio and Chicago the Texas Eagle sleeper is at the front of the train and you do not walk through the coach to reach the meal service car (whatever it is called) and of course you don't have to worry about how to reach the Sightseer lounge car because there is none.


----------



## Sidney

dan said:


> When coming from LA to Chicago, does the TE passengers have their own din ing car or must you walk through coach to get to the Sunset Limited dining car?


The Texas Eagle cars from LA to SAS are on the rear of the train and are part of the Sunset consist. You have to walk through the train to get to the diner.


----------



## lordsigma

Auto Train is getting new menus starting today. Basically they are replacing the current Auto Train sleeper dinner menu to match what's being served on the western long distance trains. The Auto Train café menu is also being refreshed.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Auto Train is getting new menus starting today. Basically they are replacing the current Auto Train sleeper dinner menu to match what's being served on the western long distance trains. The Auto Train café menu is also being refreshed.


Yay! Source?


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> Yay! Source?


A reliable source.


----------



## lordsigma

New Auto train sleeper dinner menu. https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...outes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-1021.pdf

New auto train cafe car menu: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...us/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-1121.pdf


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> New Auto train sleeper dinner menu. https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...outes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-1021.pdf
> 
> New auto train cafe car menu: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...us/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-1121.pdf


No appetizers?


----------



## Mailliw

The cafe menu should be available on LDs.


----------



## ScottR

I guess might be old news but I’m on the Northbound Coast Starlight in the diner this evening for the 7.30 seating and they just brought in 3 tables from business class. $45 for the evening three course including your alcoholic drink. Looks like you pay it there at the table. Still no communal dining…seems odd sitting by a a table by myself in a dining car.


----------



## me_little_me

ScottR said:


> I guess might be old news but I’m on the Northbound Coast Starlight in the diner this evening for the 7.30 seating and they just brought in 3 tables from business class. $45 for the evening three course including your alcoholic drink. Looks like you pay it there at the table. Still no communal dining…seems odd sitting by a a table by myself in a dining car.


From an ambiance point of view, the $45 is a bargain. What restaurant would offer you the kind of constantly changing scenery as you dine?
From a service point of view, it is a tossup whether the meal is worth $45 or $5 as the service is so inconsistent albeit my experience on traditional dining is that the majority of the servers are helpful, friendly and outgoing with great skills.
From a food point of view, the $45 includes the appetizer, entree, salad and dessert as well as the drink. Where I live, that might be a little high but for most places, it would be reasonable and for some, it is a bargain.


----------



## ScottR

Yes service was nice and food was very good. I am on a short hop from Salinas to Emeryville, to connect with the CZ in the morning. In a roomette for 160$ I think. Business class was 69 + 45 for the dinner so 114$ So
had I known that dinner could be had, I would have taken business but it isn’t a huge difference. So if dinner is 45$ I wonder what bfast and lunch is?


----------



## IndyLions

Was on the Starlight Martinez - Los Angeles on Wednesday. Not my first trip - but the views are so good - every time is the first time. 

There are very, very few restaurants with views that approach this train. The food is pretty good - but the views are spectacular.


----------



## Willbridge

IndyLions said:


> Was on the Starlight Martinez - Los Angeles on Wednesday. Not my first trip - but the views are so good - every time is the first time.
> 
> There are very, very few restaurants with views that approach this train. The food is pretty good - but the views are spectacular.


My parents rode "The Most Beautiful Train In America" on their honeymoon in January, 1946. My dad had been to San Francisco from Portland several times and to Los Angeles on the Coast Line at least once but my mother had never been out of Oregon and Washington. It was a memorable trip.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

I think it's one of strangest combinations of technology ever that air conditioned trains were pulled by steam.


----------



## zephyr17

danasgoodstuff said:


> I think it's one of strangest combinations of technology ever that air conditioned trains were pulled by steam.


With the air conditioning itself powered by steam in some cases, with steam ejector air conditioning still in use after steam engines themselves were gone.


----------



## Ziv

I have a friend who was the director of an MBA program at a large DC university. At least once a year I used to tell her that I believed that MBA's knew the cost of everything down to the penny but they hadn't a clue about what value anything had that wasn't completely monetized. I told her that customer satisfaction and a corporations reputation are much more difficult to measure and just how much they impact your future bottom line is much more difficult to quantify. She laughed at my comment for years. She basically said they had an app for that, before there were apps for anything, mind you. I think her comment usually sounded something like, "We train them to look at the big picture."
Then a couple years ago we had the same discussion and her eyes popped wide open and she said that there had been a lot of discussion in her field that year about how MBA programs were discouraging the valuation of "intangibles" that are in fact very important. I was shaking my head because it isn't an "intangible", it just isn't a direct dollars and cents equation. But MBA's are a large part of why American corporations have lost both their direction and their soul.



MARC Rider said:


> This is not just Amtrak.....


----------



## jis

Ziv said:


> Then a couple years ago we had the same discussion and her eyes popped wide open and she said that there had been a lot of discussion in her field that year about how MBA programs were discouraging the valuation of "intangibles" that are in fact very important. I was shaking my head because it isn't an "intangible", it just isn't a direct dollars and cents equation. But MBA's are a large part of why American corporations have lost both their direction and their soul.


What is worse is that no amount of federal trillions and tinkering with taxes and duties will fix the problem. Teaching MBAs to handle non-quantifiable factors in decision making in a meaningful way is what will fix it, and that training is way more difficult than teaching how to write spreadsheet cell formulae. Indeed, it is likely that most MBA faculty have no clue either since they have zero experience actually dealing with such thing either. This makes the situation even more bleak. The pandemic has to some extent forced the issue upon everyone. We'll see how things come out of it.


----------



## PVD

zephyr17 said:


> With the air conditioning itself powered by steam in some cases, with steam ejector air conditioning still in use after steam engines themselves were gone.


Try and explain absorption chilling to a group of people who have never seen it (or don't know they did) In Manhattan, there are huge buildings with absorption chillers running off Con Ed steam. And many CHP projects are tri gen, using the heat to supply absorption ac in the appropriate season.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Fifty years ago I took a very progressive course in Systems Theory and it was simply looking at “something” as a system with inputs that are predictable and unpredictable with outputs that are predictable and unpredictable. An example is Earth’s Climate Change. It was a very popular course and offered by the Industrial. Engineering Department at University of Bufffalo and now called the Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering - haha..


----------



## neroden

Yeah, this MBA issue is huge, and we've been talking about it since the 1980s. Sigh. My Dad explained that the MBA program was originally (1950s-era) ONLY for people who had already had substantial management experience in the industry they were working in -- you were supposed to know your industry FIRST -- and when they started letting in ignoramuses straight out of college, who never bothered to learn their industry, the MBA programs started producing trash managers.


----------



## lordsigma

Coast starlight business can now get access to the diner. They are not pricing the menu as before - they are charging a fixed rate for each meal $20 breakfast, $25 lunch $45 dinner. The $45 dinner includes the “first beverage on Amtrak” like is offered in the sleepers.


----------



## Skylark

I'm just trying to plan ahead (traditional dining). Will be in a roomette so I get some meals. I'm seeing that all the lunch options sound great, but nothing appeals to me for dinner (or vice versa). Can you request a lunch entree at dinner if the train runs for both meal times? I get this would depend on stock, etc. And may be dependant on the individual crew member. My understanding is it's heat and serve so hopefully wouldn't require a change prep wise?

I will be bringing my own munchies along, just trying to decide how much. It's been awhile since I've traveled - but there would be no way to heat up something like a bagel, right?

I get things are extra crazy right now.


----------



## ReadingCrusader

Rode CZ recently. They played pop music in the dining car. I hated it. How do you feel about it? Should there be music? And if you think so, who decides what music?


----------



## Cal

ReadingCrusader said:


> Rode CZ recently. They played pop music in the dining car. I hated it. How do you feel about it? Should there be music? And if you think so, who decides what music?


My LSA played trendy music, it was eh. I think some nice, instrumental background music would be nice.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

As a music lover, I always have something going in my head - I don't need someone else's choice of music competing with it.


----------



## Railspike

The sound of the train is the best music. No other needed!


----------



## lordsigma

On another note with the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill last night - Amtrak is reauthorized thru FY26 - and the Mica mandate is officially dead with the new language.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> On another note with the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill last night - Amtrak is reauthorized thru FY26 - and the Mica mandate is officially dead with the new language.


For details see









Historic Passenger Rail Infrastructure Bill Passes | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC


The trajectory of the U.S. passenger rail network has been fundamentally changed with the passage of the Investment in Infrastructure and Jobs Act (IIJA) into law. We went to sleep last night in one world, and today we woke up in a new one.




railpassengers.org





Not only is Mica dead, the fundamental Goals of Amtrak have been amended to make it more service focused, and the structure of its Board has been amended to ensure that crony lampposts stay away from it, or at least they represented lampposts from specific areas with a specific purpose.


----------



## joelkfla

Skylark said:


> I'm just trying to plan ahead (traditional dining). Will be in a roomette so I get some meals. I'm seeing that all the lunch options sound great, but nothing appeals to me for dinner (or vice versa). Can you request a lunch entree at dinner if the train runs for both meal times? I get this would depend on stock, etc. And may be dependant on the individual crew member. My understanding is it's heat and serve so hopefully wouldn't require a change prep wise?
> 
> I will be bringing my own munchies along, just trying to decide how much. It's been awhile since I've traveled - but there would be no way to heat up something like a bagel, right?
> 
> I get things are extra crazy right now.


I have no personal experience, but the menu says you can (although the grammar is backwards):


----------



## joelkfla

Just got back from a FL-NY round trip on the Meteor, featuring(?) Flex Dining.

Thumbs up on the Salmon, Enchilada, and French Toast.

Chicken ala Rosa -- ok in a pinch, but I wouldn't order it again unless I were on a multi-night trip and got tired of the salmon.

Table syrup was served with French Toast in both directions. Tabasco was available northbound (I didn't ask southbound.) Warm roll with butter included in both dinners (can't remember about lunch.) No salads southbound; SCA said they were received frozen so they were discarded. Northbound salad included choice of ranch or Italian dressing.

Moynihan Lounge at NYP had excellent pre-packaged salad, nice little sandwiches & roll-ups, high-end bottled soda, good coffee, and a good selection of snacks and pre-packaged pound cake slices.

ETA: Forgot to mention: dining car was nearly empty. Most I saw was about 4 tables occupied at a breakfast. I noticed a fairly steady stream of SCA'S carrying food out, and one passenger picking up and carrying out his own food. I wandered into the Cafe car just for a peek, and there was a prettty good-sized line.


----------



## me_little_me

On our ride from Grand Junction to Chicago on this Thursday, an hour or so before lunch outside of GJ, the LSA made an announcement about meals in the diner. I am hard of hearing but basically what he said was that lunch would be open seating and dinner would need reservations. He stated he would be coming around before dinner and take reservations. He seemed to then address coach passengers saying that the diner was only for sleeper passengers and that there were no prices on the menu because meals were included in the sleeper fare so there was no way to charge coach passengers for meals. He then followed up by mentioning that dinner and lunch included dessert and that dinner also included an appetizer and alcoholic drink. This was not news to me until what followed. I'd swear that he also added that gratuities were also included with the meal. I quickly turned to my wife and asked her if she heard that but she was not paying attention to the announcement so could not be sure exactly what was said.

I've never heard a meal announcement that ever even mentioned the word "gratuities" on Amtrak. I still tipped as usual at meal times but I am wondering if this is something new.

I was reluctant to asking him at mealtime to repeat what he said but if anyone has recently heard of such an announcement or any announcement on gratuities for meals onboard, I would love to know for sure. Possibly someone with more nerve than I could ask their LSA about it but my guess is that their answer would be vague both because the crew would not want to lose this extra money and because they might not agree even if this is the new Amtrak policy.

BTW, the LSA was the most consistent when announcing meal times, took down names of passengers when there was no room temporarily at breakfast and lunch, then called them over the PA by name when their table was ready, made excellent and proper announcements telling passengers that the next seating (for dinner) was available) or reminding them that seating was available for breakfast and lunch, and telling them when the last call was being made. I watched him closely at meals and he was one of the most efficient servers I have seen in ANY restaurant, yet still had time to chat for a few moments with passengers. Highly professional in my estimation and the perfect Amtrak LSA in the dining room.


----------



## OBS

He undoubtedly said "gratuities are not included in the meal". There is NO doubt in my mind.....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

OBS said:


> He undoubtedly said "gratuities are not included in the meal". There is NO doubt in my mind.....


That's more likely since some people don't seem to know about tipping. (I don't want to say "know to tip" because tipping is not a requirement)


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

I remember as a college student the first time I ever ate in a diner, this would have been pre Amtrak on the Penn Central and I asked if it was OK to leave a tip and got a laugh out of the waiter.


----------



## Willbridge

jis said:


> For details see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Historic Passenger Rail Infrastructure Bill Passes | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC
> 
> 
> The trajectory of the U.S. passenger rail network has been fundamentally changed with the passage of the Investment in Infrastructure and Jobs Act (IIJA) into law. We went to sleep last night in one world, and today we woke up in a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railpassengers.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is Mica dead, the fundamental Goals of Amtrak have been amended to make it more service focused, and the structure of its Board has been amended to ensure that crony lampposts stay away from it, or at least they represented lampposts from specific areas with a specific purpose.


You make a good point about there being two kinds of lampposts. During my time at Oregon DOT I ran across many people who were appointed to commissions by the governor. They were politically acceptable to the governor and his team but they were expected to represent various interests effectively. In turn, we staff learned from them and sometimes educated them, too.

The second governor in my time there did not make such good appointments and I was one of several people who left for other opportunities. At my going-away party the card from my colleagues read "Congratulations!" It turned out that a number of them were at least weighing their options. I think that one of the things that school children need to learn is how important the appointments made by a governing executive can become.


----------



## ehbowen

PVD said:


> Try and explain absorption chilling to a group of people who have never seen it (or don't know they did) In Manhattan, there are huge buildings with absorption chillers running off Con Ed steam. And many CHP projects are tri gen, using the heat to supply absorption ac in the appropriate season.


I understand that the Houston Astrodome was originally built with gas fired absorption chillers, natural gas then (1960s) being both plentiful and cheap in Texas. There's still a very prominent exhaust stack visible on the east side of the building (funnel-shaped object at roof line visible above the cooling tower):


----------



## neroden

lordsigma said:


> Coast starlight business can now get access to the diner. They are not pricing the menu as before - they are charging a fixed rate for each meal $20 breakfast, $25 lunch $45 dinner. The $45 dinner includes the “first beverage on Amtrak” like is offered in the sleepers.


For reference, based on what I've been told, this sort of fixed pricing avoids a bunch of still-remaining legal issues related to the laws regulating Amtrak food service. It should also simplify the process of pre-ordering and buying meal tickets in advance.


----------



## neroden

lordsigma said:


> On another note with the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill last night - Amtrak is reauthorized thru FY26 - and the Mica mandate is officially dead with the new language.


And Amtrak has an official new mission statement. It's better. It was written by Rail Passengers Association, basically.


----------



## Skylark

joelkfla said:


> I have no personal experience, but the menu says you can (although the grammar is backwards):
> View attachment 25374


Not sure how I missed that - thank you! Now I won't feel silly asking. Nice to have that option as I tend to prefer a lighter meal before bed also.


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## joelkfla

PVD said:


> And many *CHP *projects are tri gen, using the heat to supply absorption ac in the appropriate season.


California Highway Patrol?


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## PVD

combined heat power, but I think my original idea of showing how steam is often used in AC (although in a different manner than rail) is dragging us further off topic...my apologies


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## JWM

Yes, it finally looks like Amtrak will stop going from pillar to post after the infrastructure bill passed. Will be we get the Cardinal and Sunset running daily? Saw a cost comparison some years ago that said daily trains would increase ridership and decrease red ink. Now, if only they would put back full dining service on the on the "one nighter" trains.


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## jis

JWM said:


> Yes, it finally looks like Amtrak will stop going from pillar to post after the infrastructure bill passed. Will be we get the Cardinal and Sunset running daily? Saw a cost comparison some years ago that said daily trains would increase ridership and decrease red ink. Now, if only they would put back full dining service on the on the "one nighter" trains.


The Infrastructure Bill covers the cost of getting additional equipment and such, but not the cost of operations. That comes from authorized appropriations, which also have better numbers than before in the specified authorizations in the Bill. But they have to be appropriated each year.

And of course negotiating a deal with UP and CSX is something else altogether.


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## Willbridge

jis said:


> The Infrastructure Bill covers the cost of getting additional equipment and such, but not the cost of operations. That comes from authorized appropriations, which also have better numbers than before in the specified authorizations in the Bill. But they have to be appropriated each year.
> 
> And of course negotiating a deal with UP and CSX is something else altogether.


It should also be noted that in the 2009 "studies" for the _North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer _and daily _Sunset _it was assumed that new Superliners would need to be built. That would safely add seven to ten more years before anything could happen and open the possibility of a change in policy that would kill the improvements.


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## IndyLions

We often compare Amtrak Dining with First Class Air, and in my opinion it is a worthy point of comparison - although they are vastly different products.

On my recent Delta flight LAX-MSP last Saturday (11:45am departure) - they served a tasty but unremarkable cold sandwich with a bag of chips and a cookie. Of course, alcoholic beverages were available if I wanted them.

This morning I saw this tweet from Wingin’ It Paul, who is on a 4 1/2 hour United flight in First. He’ll be cross country on Amtrak later in his US itinerary. Included in that tweet was the attached photo of the “breakfast” he was provided. As bad as Flex/Contemporary has been (and it’s been really bad) - at least gummy bears and popcorn weren’t breakfast staples!

Paul’s tweet:


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

IndyLions said:


> This morning I saw this tweet from Wingin’ It Paul, who is on a 4 1/2 hour United flight in First. He’ll be cross country on Amtrak later in his US itinerary. Included in that tweet was the attached photo of the “breakfast” he was provided. As bad as Flex/Contemporary has been (and it’s been really bad) - at least gummy bears and popcorn weren’t breakfast staples!


Wow how things have changed. I can recall in the 1970's flying Northeast Airlines from Boston to Philadelphia and getting a full breakfast with omelet and sausage, in coach yet.


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> We often compare Amtrak Dining with First Class Air, and in my opinion it is a worthy point of comparison - although they are vastly different products.
> 
> On my recent Delta flight LAX-MSP last Saturday (11:45am departure) - they served a tasty but unremarkable cold sandwich with a bag of chips and a cookie. Of course, alcoholic beverages were available if I wanted them.
> 
> This morning I saw this tweet from Wingin’ It Paul, who is on a 4 1/2 hour United flight in First. He’ll be cross country on Amtrak later in his US itinerary. Included in that tweet was the attached photo of the “breakfast” he was provided. As bad as Flex/Contemporary has been (and it’s been really bad) - at least gummy bears and popcorn weren’t breakfast staples!
> 
> Paul’s tweet:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 25395



What route?


----------



## CraigInNC

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Wow how things have changed. I can recall in the 1970's flying Northeast Airlines from Boston to Philadelphia and getting a full breakfast with omelet and sausage, in coach yet.



Well in the 1970s the airlines were regulated so they could afford to compete on amenities. Nowadays, especially with the advent of internet ticket booking, airlines compete on price and frequency and it is a race to the bottom. As I have been told, flying pre-deregulation was relatively expensive compared to today and the demographic was somewhat different. I have a grandmother who (by God is still living in her 90s) who graduated high school in 1941 and had a notion to become a flight attendant. Mentioned to me that in the early days of flying at least one stewardess on the flight was a nurse. I generally only fly First if I am going overseas at night or once I did from Charlotte to Phoenix direct because the last minute upgrade fee was small. Even then it certainly wasn't because of the food. I ate what I could simply because I didn't want to be too famished after 8 hours in flight but it was strictly to tide me over. Overnights the upgrade is almost strict to get a sleeper bed, like on a train.


----------



## MARC Rider

CraigInNC said:


> Well in the 1970s the airlines were regulated so they could afford to compete on amenities. Nowadays, especially with the advent of internet ticket booking, airlines compete on price and frequency and it is a race to the bottom.



Back in the good old days, the routes and fares were so highly regulated the airlines were _forced _to compete on amenities. On the other hand, the competition was also regulated, too, so it's not like the airlines were looking over their shoulders fearful of some aggressive upstart carrier. Also, deregulation and the "race to the bottom" started in the early 1980s, long before there was internet ticket booking.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Also, deregulation and the "race to the bottom" started in the early 1980s, long before there was internet ticket booking.


I remember some very enjoyable coach flights in the early 1980's but by the end of the decade service levels were pretty bad. Then there was a sort of renaissance in the 1990's with the last few years of the decade being a good mix of low prices and reasonable service. The 2000's introduced us to the TSA and ULCC that made travel miserable for many and led to a much more aggressive race to a much deeper bottom. So far the 2020's are not looking that great with major service reductions across the board but hopefully travel standards will continue to improve as the pandemic subsides and the economy recovers.


----------



## Sidney

Getting back to the food. I am on the CONO and trying the newer flex offerings. The beef short ribs are decent,probably the best of the flex choices and the french toast this morning was a bit rubbery,but edible. A far cry from the traditional french toast I had on the EB in September. Pre covid and flex,the food wasn't that great to begin with on the CONO so this is a step up.

Grabbed a bedroom at a cheaper rate than a roomette. Bedroom had one low bucket left. The price difference at low bucket is only $66. Wish it wasn't $300 to $500 more on every other train. You can get spoiled. Just wish my budget could afford it..


----------



## CraigInNC

Sidney said:


> Getting back to the food. I am on the CONO and trying the newer flex offerings. The beef short ribs are decent,probably the best of the flex choices and the french toast this morning was a bit rubbery,but edible. A far cry from the traditional french toast I had on the EB in September. Pre covid and flex,the food wasn't that great to begin with on the CONO so this is a step up.
> 
> Grabbed a bedroom at a cheaper rate than a roomette. Bedroom had one low bucket left. The price difference at low bucket is only $66. Wish it wasn't $300 to $500 more on every other train. You can get spoiled. Just wish my budget could afford it..



What is the CONO and I wonder what the onboard bedroom upgrade typically is. If its open do they expect you to pay the exact differential that you would if you just bought the ticket fresh?


----------



## Sidney

CraigInNC said:


> What is the CONO and I wonder what the onboard bedroom upgrade typically is. If its open do they expect you to pay the exact differential that you would if you just bought the ticket fresh?


The CONO is the abbreviation for the City of New Orleans.Once onboard the difference would be no different than booking online. Sadly,upgrading once you board does not give you any discount. I happened to find my low fare checking my departure date after I booked a roomette. Luckily, I found a $367 low bucket bedroom,senior and grabbed it.


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## drdumont

CraigInNC said:


> What is the CONO and I wonder what the onboard bedroom upgrade typically is. If its open do they expect you to pay the exact differential that you would if you just bought the ticket fresh?



You can find the fares on the AMTRAK website. Be warned - the fares can change minute by minute according to availability and time to train departure. You can check a fare today, and it may change until you actually pay for it.

If you decide to upgrade onboard and are fortunate enough to find space available, you will pay the exact fare you would have paid if ticketed earlier between the same two points.

Amtrak charges two fares - Transportation, or Railfare (butt in seat). If you desire upgrade, you pay an Accommodation fare in addition. Accommodation fare is paid once, e.g., if you are traveling with someone, you pay the Accommodation fare once, and both of you are entitled to First CLass privileges, including the "meals", access to First Class lounges in the stations.. 

Interesting though popped into my head... Let's say I buy a coach ticket CHI-DAL. Then I decide to try to upgrade from STL-DAL. I haven't tested this, but I think you would pay a cheaper accommodation fare if you didn't get into the First Class until STL. Makes sense, tho.

CONO = City of New Orleans - Chicago to New Orleans. Leaves Chicago at 20:05. Arrives New Orleans 15:47. (Leaves New Orleans 15:45 Arrives CHI 09:15). Three day a week train. Nice train, but treated like the redheaded stepchild like the Eagle and the Cardinal.

Last trip report on YouTube said they were still serving the FLEX slop. (Redundant, I know, sorry).

One YouTuber wrote of getting an excellent sandwich meal from one of the legendary shops near Union station and enjoying it on the train as he left. My suggestion is to enjoy a sumptuous meal at The Italian Village near Chicago Union Station, then board the train.

I would do breakfast and lunch in the cafe car, avoiding the slop.


----------



## Sidney

drdumont said:


> You can find the fares on the AMTRAK website. Be warned - the fares can change minute by minute according to availability and time to train departure. You can check a fare today, and it may change until you actually pay for it.
> 
> If you decide to upgrade onboard and are fortunate enough to find space available, you will pay the exact fare you would have paid if ticketed earlier between the same two points.
> 
> Amtrak charges two fares - Transportation, or Railfare (butt in seat). If you desire upgrade, you pay an Accommodation fare in addition. Accommodation fare is paid once, e.g., if you are traveling with someone, you pay the Accommodation fare once, and both of you are entitled to First CLass privileges, including the "meals", access to First Class lounges in the stations..
> 
> Interesting though popped into my head... Let's say I buy a coach ticket CHI-DAL. Then I decide to try to upgrade from STL-DAL. I haven't tested this, but I think you would pay a cheaper accommodation fare if you didn't get into the First Class until STL. Makes sense, tho.
> 
> CONO = City of New Orleans - Chicago to New Orleans. Leaves Chicago at 20:05. Arrives New Orleans 15:47. (Leaves New Orleans 15:45 Arrives CHI 09:15). Three day a week train. Nice train, but treated like the redheaded stepchild like the Eagle and the Cardinal.
> 
> Last trip report on YouTube said they were still serving the FLEX slop. (Redundant, I know, sorry).
> 
> One YouTuber wrote of getting an excellent sandwich meal from one of the legendary shops near Union station and enjoying it on the train as he left. My suggestion is to enjoy a sumptuous meal at The Italian Village near Chicago Union Station, then board the train.
> 
> I would do breakfast and lunch in the cafe car, avoiding the slop.


The CONO is a daily train. I had a deep dish pizza at Guardinos on W Jackson yesterday afternoon before boarding the CONO. Sometimes I ll get a sub fron Jersey Mikes at Union Station. Both are better than any flex meal.


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## drdumont

Sidney said:


> The CONO is a daily train. I had a deep dish pizza at Guardinos on W Jackson yesterday afternoon before boarding the CONO. Sometimes I ll get a sub fron Jersey Mikes at Union Station. Both are better than any flex meal.



Is CONO daily now? GREAT! I was referring to an older timetable. 

Our last trip a couple of weeks ago from CHI-DAL we had a Giordano's Deep Dish. Excellent choice!

I forget the name of the sandwich joint to which the guy referred in his YouTube trip report. It seemed special to him.
Chicago has S-O-O-O-O many great eateries, like New Orleans, it is hard to make a choice...


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## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> deregulation and the "race to the bottom" started in the early 1980s, long before there was internet ticket booking.



There will be those that disagree with me, but deregulation of the airlines was the most disappointing thing that has happened in my lifetime regarding the quality and the pleasure of traveling. Deregulation has led airlines become the "Greyhound of the Skies" and is now helping to provide a more affordable means of transportation so that the "jerks of the world" can now fly, insult and assault flight crews and fellow passengers when "they don't get to do whatever it is they want to do".


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## Cal

drdumont said:


> Is CONO daily now? GREAT! I was referring to an older timetable.


Only since May... Timetables are no longer accurate.


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## basketmaker

Dakota 400 said:


> There will be those that disagree with me, but deregulation of the airlines was the most disappointing thing that has happened in my lifetime regarding the quality and the pleasure of traveling. Deregulation has led airlines become the "Greyhound of the Skies" and is now helping to provide a more affordable means of transportation so that the "jerks of the world" can now fly, insult and assault flight crews and fellow passengers when "they don't get to do whatever it is they want to do".


Hallelujah! Spent 46 years in it from 1969 to 2015 in one aspect or another. Done passenger and cargo airlines. Ticket agent, gate, bag smasher up flight attendant (steward/stewardess back in the early days). Pickup/delivery of freight to loading aircraft. That is why I hate flying today. My next flight will always be Amtrak!


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## MARC Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> There will be those that disagree with me, but deregulation of the airlines was the most disappointing thing that has happened in my lifetime regarding the quality and the pleasure of traveling. Deregulation has led airlines become the "Greyhound of the Skies" and is now helping to provide a more affordable means of transportation so that the "jerks of the world" can now fly, insult and assault flight crews and fellow passengers when "they don't get to do whatever it is they want to do".


Oh, I agree with you 100% I regularly flew from the east coast to Chicago while I was in college during the period 1972 - 1976. I started flying for work trips in 1979, mostly out to Denver. Sometime around 1981 or so, I noticed that the vibe at Stapleton was becoming more like that of the Greyhound station than an airport. It really hit me around 1986 or 1987 when Frank Lorenzo's Continental Airlines got the government contract for the BWI - DEN city pair. I had 3 horrible flights all in a row. Not just lousy service and inadequate food, but also mechanical problems with the planes, including a flight aborted about 20 minutes after take-off. Nothing like circling around in an apparently mechanically compromised plane for a while burning off fuel so we could land, that doesn't give any anxiety, oh no. The final straw, though, was the pretty much universal elimination of meal service on even coast-to-coast flights and the fact that practically every flight (with a very few exceptions) I've been on in the last 15 or 20 years has been on an aircraft packed full of passengers. Charging for checked luggage is also another thing that degrades the flying experience, but even on Southwest, where the fares include checked luggage, everybody wants to bring their suitcases on board, clogging up the overhead bin space and making boarding and deplaning much more unpleasant. I can deal with some of this hassle for a 2 or 3 hour flight, but for coast to coast....ugh.


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## cassie225

That’s another reason I don’t fly, they pack people on so tight, it might be getting worse than Greyhound , back when I was a little girl, I loved riding the bus,it was an adventure as it stopped at different bus stations to get food. Overnight on the bus at that time was awesome


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## Dakota 400

cassie225 said:


> back when I was a little girl, I loved riding the bus,it was an adventure as it stopped at different bus stations to get food. Overnight on the bus at that time was awesome



Many years ago, I did a RT overnight bus trip from Columbus, Ohio to New York City on Trailways Golden Eagle service. Food service, an attendant, pillows distributed, reclining seats with a foot rest (maybe a leg rest as well), and a decent restroom aboard. It was an interesting experience. But, I prefer Amtrak (or as rail travel was at that time).


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## jruff001

Dakota 400 said:


> Many years ago, I did a RT overnight bus trip from Columbus, Ohio to New York City on Trailways Golden Eagle service.


I just googled that. I had no idea!


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Dakota 400 said:


> Many years ago, I did a RT overnight bus trip from Columbus, Ohio to New York City on Trailways Golden Eagle service. Food service, an attendant, pillows distributed, reclining seats with a foot rest (maybe a leg rest as well), and a decent restroom aboard. It was an interesting experience. But, I prefer Amtrak (or as rail travel was at that time).


Interesting. I wonder what that food service was like. 

Here in Maine Concord Coach has daily trips from Portland to New York City where they serve drinks and snacks, although I believe it is self service, I don't think there is an attendant (never used it myself).


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## Dakota 400

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Interesting. I wonder what that food service was like



To be honest, I really don't remember. Hot? Don't remember. We had dinner out of Columbus and New York and breakfast before arrival in New York and Columbus.


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## Rambling Robert

I haven’t read much about Coach using the Dining Car again. I know with masks mandatory communal dining is out - therefore Coach dining is out but how about post pandemic?

My trip x-country in Coach this past June was a bummer without a decent meal.


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## me_little_me

Rambling Robert said:


> I haven’t read much about Coach using the Dining Car again. I know with masks mandatory communal dining is out - therefore Coach dining is out but how about post pandemic?


Not true about "with masks mandatory communal dining is out". On our return trip on the Zephyr, the SLA asked us if we would mind sharing our table with a single passenger who didn't want to sit alone. We agreed and it was quite enjoyable with both we and the other gentleman wearing masks when not actively eating or drinking. We did it again with another man at brakfast when the LSA again asked us if it was okay. The third time, we agreed but the gentleman apparently decided to eat a little later and he was seated alone as we were almost finished.

Being masked and careful, one can still enjoy onboard dining. BTW, this was the best Amtrak trip we have ever taken including everything - SCAs, LSAs, conductors, things working properly in rooms, ontime arrivals, delays by freights, etc - you name it. Only downside was flex meals onboard the Cardinals. That was a four train trip.

When one adds how everything else went including the places we saw, 10 nights at 6 different hotels, car rental, taxis, etc, it still was the best by far. It wasn't perfect but it was an easy 9 out of 10. The only glitches were two taxi rides (and that worked out) and our own driving to the train.


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## lordsigma

The starlight is starting a pilot in business class to allow access to diner - this is very likely what they would eventually roll out to coach. As hinted by Amtrak management previously they are not putting prices on the menu. They are selling meal packages - $20 breakfast $25 lunch and $45 dinner. For that package price you get everything that a sleeper car passenger would get for that meal including the lunch/dinner dessert and the dinner “first drink on us”. To secure your reservation you go to the diner before the meal service begins to pay the charge. Like with sleeper passengers it sounds like from trip reports I’ve seen the only transactions performed once seated for the meal are additional alcoholic beverages - the meal charge is paid to the LSA prior to the meal service beginning.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> The starlight is starting a pilot in business class to allow access to diner - this is very likely what they would eventually roll out to coach. As hinted by Amtrak management previously they are not putting prices on the menu. They are selling meal packages - $20 breakfast $25 lunch and $45 dinner. For that package price you get everything that a sleeper car passenger would get for that meal including the lunch/dinner dessert and the dinner “first drink on us”. To secure your reservation you go to the diner before the meal service begins to pay the charge. Like with sleeper passengers the only transactions performed at seat are additional alcoholic beverages.


Eventually they should make it a service attachment to the PNR, like for example "pets" are at present, so that customers can book it when they buy the ticket or add it on using the web site at any time, including making the requisite payment.

IndiGo Airline (among others) in India does it this way. All the service attachments get printed out as coupons on the boarding card in their case, and as each service is delivered the one delivering the service takes the corresponding coupon. All this could easily be done electronically too. The OBS crew has a printout of the add on services associated with each checked in passenger and associated with their assigned seat. Works really well. All of on board food service is delivered this way with multiple possible menu packages to choose from. And it is BTW an LCC, and the largest airline in India.


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## lordsigma

Seems like a good way to do it. At table reservations would of course still be first come first serve after sleeping car passengers have chosen - so if you've purchased a meal with your ticket but fail to get a reservation then your meal would be carry away to your seat. Doing the packages seems like it will streamline the meal service for the crew as there will be no need to tally up the cost of the meal for non-sleeping car patrons - basically every table and patron is served the same way. Again the only cash/card transactions for the LSA being alcoholic beverage sales.


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## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Seems like a good way to do it. At table reservations would of course still be first come first serve after sleeping car passengers have chosen - so if you've purchased a meal with your ticket but fail to get a reservation then your meal would be carry away to your seat.


Since the value of the dining experience would be reduced (significantly IMHO) by not being seated in the diner and having to eat at one's seat, there needs to be an alternative. Possibly a portion of the cost refunded if there are no available diner seats is one possibility. I can't imagine walking into any restaurant charging those prices and having already paid for my meal and have the manager tell me that they are full so I'll have to take my meal home and eat it. Also, Amtrak needs to dramatically increase their food reliability. Again, if I've paid for a meal and x entree is unavailable or they have run out of desserts (like on our return trip last Sunday), Amtrak will only drive potential business away. Their inability to provide sufficient product for their diners and cafes is well known in this forum. To make it worse by charging one in advance and not being able to deliver is downright criminal. Remember, this is not a unique thing but something that seems to happen regularly on Amtrak.


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## Sidney

You pay $45 for the dinner ordering the steak,which is the only meal worth that price and when it's meal time they are out of it. Not good. 

I'm on the Cresent Northbound in a roomette. 9:15AM departure from New Orleans. Breakfast an hour later. Just had the Chicken Ala Rosa for lunch. Bland. I've had the short ribs earlier this week. Not bad. That will be my dinner tonight and lunch tomorrow. I m sure the salmon is subpar and the Enchiladas don't appeal to me. They dropped both shrimp dishes. I ll take those over the Chicken Ala Rosa. At least I brought some wine with me to make the flex crap more tolerable.

Had the french toast this morning. Half of it was too hard to eat. Good God! Restore traditional dining on every train! At the price we are paying we deserve real food!


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## CraigInNC

Dakota 400 said:


> There will be those that disagree with me, but deregulation of the airlines was the most disappointing thing that has happened in my lifetime regarding the quality and the pleasure of traveling. Deregulation has led airlines become the "Greyhound of the Skies" and is now helping to provide a more affordable means of transportation so that the "jerks of the world" can now fly, insult and assault flight crews and fellow passengers when "they don't get to do whatever it is they want to do".



I wasn't even born when deregulation began of the airlines so I have no way of referencing any past service. With that said, it does appear that the public, in general, will buy based on price and will trade amenities to be able to get from say Dallas to Tampa Florida in 2 hours for $125 one way. It did democratize the passenger base but as has been said it is not longer a "lifestyle" form of travel as it was 40+ years ago and as Amtrak is (for the most part) on non-commuter routes. While there is arguably a social benefit to making air travel more reasonable, it certainly hasn't done anything for most of the airlines. Financially, deregulation has largely been a disaster for most airlines with the exception of perhaps Southwest and a couple more niche carriers that cater to a specific market. Just about every airline has declared bankruptcy multiple times over the years, many of them have gone, some have come and gone, and the ones that are flying now are barely solvent. Between 9/11 and Covid the US taxpayers have pumped a lot of money into those companies on an unprecedented level. With that being said, anyone arguing that Amtrak is a waste of taxpayer money is making a bunk argument.


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## CraigInNC

I was on the overnight NB Silver Star from Tampa to Cary, NC leaving Tampa at 5.27P and arriving in Cary about 30 minutes late around 10.30A the following morning. The SCA was outstanding. I had dinner at 6.30P in the dining car. I had the rib flex meal, blondie cake dessert square, and a Tito's with Diet Coke. It was decent. Not exceptional but I wasn't expecting it given the circumstances. We all want traditional dining to return. So does the crew. There were a couple of other folks at different tables in the dining car. The train was not full. Only about 4-5 of the sleepers in 2 sleeping cars were occupied. During my walk back to my roomette I saw several people eating in their rooms. I had the SCA make the bed up when I was eating since it gets dark early now and I was just going to lie down. I had the French Toast in the morning in the dining car again. It was decent, actually not that bad. Better than the ribs in comparison which wasn't that bad either. The dining car attendant asked me if I wanted anything else and I asked her if I could get one of the Greek yogurts off the continental choice and she obliged. Drank two cups of coffee with the meal. I would rate the Dinner of Ribs a 5 out of 10. The Breakfast a 7. That is based on the food and not taking into consideration the expected experience of table service and the presentation associated with traditional dining. I brought a snack with me the SCA was kind enough to give me an extra diet Coke for the room. I had a late lunch around 2PM before I boarded so I was not hungry when I went to bed. It was a good trip and it was nice to take it in the new Viewliner IIs. But yes having the traditional dining back would be icing on the cake.


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## lordsigma

I think $45 is appropriate. The meal includes appetizer, dessert, and 1 alcoholic beverage - and the presentation is way better than pre pandemic.


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## Dakota 400

CraigInNC said:


> It did democratize the passenger base



I think that is good. But, I think it might have been able to be done in a better way than what deregulation of the airlines allowed. I thought after I made my post that it might be read as being one as an "elitist" comment. Such could not be further my thinking. 

On my first flight, an American Airlines flight from DAY to LGA in a 727 in Coach and being served a good dinner many years ago, such an opportunity ought to be available for those who fly in fly in Coach Class today. Just because the democratizing of the passenger base has taken place, why ought those who choose to fly Coach not enjoy the amenities that I did during my first flight? 

It's comparable to Amtrak dining. I book Amtrak coach and am unable to have dinner in the dinning car? There is something seriously wrong with this scenario, I think. 

I am getting weary of excuses that such are due to the pandemic that cause this. This pandemic is going to become an endemic. Just as so many of society's ills, it's not going away.


----------



## CraigInNC

Dakota 400 said:


> I think that is good. But, I think it might have been able to be done in a better way than what deregulation of the airlines allowed. I thought after I made my post that it might be read as being one as an "elitist" comment. Such could not be further my thinking.
> 
> On my first flight, an American Airlines flight from DAY to LGA in a 727 in Coach and being served a good dinner many years ago, such an opportunity ought to be available for those who fly in fly in Coach Class today. Just because the democratizing of the passenger base has taken place, why ought those who choose to fly Coach not enjoy the amenities that I did during my first flight?
> 
> It's comparable to Amtrak dining. I book Amtrak coach and am unable to have dinner in the dinning car? There is something seriously wrong with this scenario, I think.
> 
> I am getting weary of excuses that such are due to the pandemic that cause this. This pandemic is going to become an endemic. Just as so many of society's ills, it's not going away.



When I did my MBA, airline deregulation is a mainstay case study for business regulation. Being a transportation buff I wrote extensively on that subject when I was in school. There are a lot of moving parts but perhaps the most salient point with the airlines, and Amtrak for that matter, and transportation in general, is that fact that it is so capital intensive. The barriers of entry are very high in these industries. Airplanes are not cheap. Trains are not cheap. In order to have a meaningful and profitable service you have to offer enough of the service to attract a regular clientele. The problem the airlines have is that revenues are very elastic and costs are not. So that has created endless cycles of profitability and losses (more losses than profits) with the US government stepping in with financial resources at times (9/11, Covid, etc.) Amtrak being a quasi government statal like the Post Office is less subject to those gyrations because the revenue stream tends to be smoother for various reasons and the cost structure is heavily contained with funding streams both from passengers and government injection. Amtrak "loses" money but it is not a private investor owned entity and well we only have one passenger railroad. 

As far as peoples' expectations, well as far as airlines go, some people (although it is a distinct minority) complain about not having amenities on an airplane but the fact of the matter is people will accept that inconvenience to get from point A to point B quickly and cheaply. Perhaps back in pre-deregulation days the type of demographic that flew was such that service at that level was expected. That is why we have Business and First Class seating today. Very good product exists out their in the airline world but you pay through the nose for it. Today there is a large gap between the Haves and Have Nots among ticketed airline passengers. I can fly to Europe direct from Charlotte, NC very cheaply for $426 non stop to London. That is nothing when you come to think of it in today's mid level wage bracket. In 1979 Piedmont Airlines inaugurated non stop service to London from Charlotte for $399 One Way. That was 42 years ago. The price went up $26 in 42 years. That is why airline service sucks. 

I am not sure the airlines will ever be able to get out of that constant cycle of profit and losses so I do not expect that airline service will change much in the intermediate future. I fly only strictly if and when I have to and no practical alternatives exist. As for Amtrak, well since they are probably as well funded going into the next 10 years as they have ever been they are going to shift from a position of "barely hanging on" to "what do we do next." Not exactly a bad place to be.


----------



## Sidney

CraigInNC said:


> I was on the overnight NB Silver Star from Tampa to Cary, NC leaving Tampa at 5.27P and arriving in Cary about 30 minutes late around 10.30A the following morning. The SCA was outstanding. I had dinner at 6.30P in the dining car. I had the rib flex meal, blondie cake dessert square, and a Tito's with Diet Coke. It was decent. Not exceptional but I wasn't expecting it given the circumstances. We all want traditional dining to return. So does the crew. There were a couple of other folks at different tables in the dining car. The train was not full. Only about 4-5 of the sleepers in 2 sleeping cars were occupied. During my walk back to my roomette I saw several people eating in their rooms. I had the SCA make the bed up when I was eating since it gets dark early now and I was just going to lie down. I had the French Toast in the morning in the dining car again. It was decent, actually not that bad. Better than the ribs in comparison which wasn't that bad either. The dining car attendant asked me if I wanted anything else and I asked her if I could get one of the Greek yogurts off the continental choice and she obliged. Drank two cups of coffee with the meal. I would rate the Dinner of Ribs a 5 out of 10. The Breakfast a 7. That is based on the food and not taking into consideration the expected experience of table service and the presentation associated with traditional dining. I brought a snack with me the SCA was kind enough to give me an extra diet Coke for the room. I had a late lunch around 2PM before I boarded so I was not hungry when I went to bed. It was a good trip and it was nice to take it in the new Viewliner IIs. But yes having the traditional dining back would be icing on the cake.


On the Crescent heading to Philly. Thought I would try the French Toast again. Worse than yesterday. Broke two forks trying to cut it. I threw most of it out. The omelette looked awful and the Jimmy Dean sandwich makes the Egg McMuffin and Crossanwich seem like gourmet meals. Only thing that is decent are the short ribs. Yep,traditional dining on the Eastern trains can't come back soon enough.


----------



## joelkfla

Sidney said:


> On the Crescent heading to Philly. Thought I would try the French Toast again. Worse than yesterday. Broke two forks trying to cut it.


I attribute that to the forks as much as the food. I don't think those plastic forks were designed to cut anything. They might break just trying to cut a stack of perfectly fine fluffy pancakes.


----------



## tgstubbs1

joelkfla said:


> I attribute that to the forks as much as the food. I don't think those plastic forks were designed to cut anything. They might break just trying to cut a stack of perfectly fine fluffy pancakes.


Yes, they can only be used with the plastic knife.


----------



## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> I attribute that to the forks as much as the food. I don't think those plastic forks were designed to cut anything. They might break just trying to cut a stack of perfectly fine fluffy pancakes.


Or even mashed potatoes!


----------



## Rambling Robert

Carry plenty of hand sanitizer and eat with your hands. Be sure to post photos here!


----------



## Triley

me_little_me said:


> Not true about "with masks mandatory communal dining is out". On our return trip on the Zephyr, the SLA asked us if we would mind sharing our table with a single passenger who didn't want to sit alone. We agreed and it was quite enjoyable with both we and the other gentleman wearing masks when not actively eating or drinking. We did it again with another man at brakfast when the LSA again asked us if it was okay. The third time, we agreed but the gentleman apparently decided to eat a little later and he was seated alone as we were almost finished.



It’s great that you agreed to do so, as it really helps out your diner crew, but….they are going against Amtrak policy, and this should _not_ be expected.


----------



## Rambling Robert

@Triley - thanks for clarifying. I’m fairly patient regarding the dining car vs. Coach. My last trip was DownEaster to SurfLiner and I “virtually” lived on energy bars. But my 2017 trip i had great food on both the TE and LSL.

Hopefully Amtrak offers in 2022 or I’ll just do a road trip:


----------



## Triley

Rambling Robert said:


> @Triley - thanks for clarifying. I’m fairly patient regarding the dining car vs. Coach. My last trip was DownEaster to SurfLiner and I “virtually” lived on energy bars. But my 2017 trip i had great food on both the TE and LSL.
> 
> Hopefully Amtrak offers in 2022 or I’ll just do a road trip:



There has been a national menu change that went in to effect in the cafés at the beginning of November. Though it’s not enough to take care of you for a trip that long, the options are at least better than they were during Covid.


----------



## Rambling Robert

The 7/21 SWC Traditional Dining menu looks good. The 10/21 flex - well - consensus seems to be the short ribs - haha.

The Cafe menu on the LSL is what I had 6/21. Pizza and noodles was okay. The Cafe for SWC - idk - I only had energy bars - not that great.... I didn’t use the LSL Cafe at all.


----------



## Triley

Rambling Robert said:


> The 7/21 SWC Traditional Dining menu looks good. The 10/21 flex - well - consensus seems to be the short ribs - haha.
> 
> The Cafe menu on the LSL is what I had 6/21. Pizza and noodles was okay. The Cafe for SWC - idk - I only had energy bars - not that great.... I didn’t use the LSL Cafe at all.
> 
> The menu for the DownEaster looks great. I’m looking forward to a snowy trip sometime this winter to visit the Arctic Museum at Bowdoin College. I hope this is the menu. Notice NexDine is the contractor - the servers wear green aprons but 6/21 it was an Amtrak employee.
> View attachment 25497



This menu here is the one you had?



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1021.pdf


----------



## joelkfla

Triley said:


> This menu here is the one you had?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1021.pdf


There _are _quite few hot options on that menu.

What's an "Artisan Turkey Sandwich"?


----------



## me_little_me

Triley said:


> ... the options are at least better than they were during Covid.


Is Covid over? No more masks? Nobody dying? Nobody being hospitalized? 

As far as Covid is concerned, flex meals have no relationship to them. They were implemented before Covid so to be accurate, the current ones are better than the ones in December 2019 (my first experience) and for some period before then. They kept the garbage well into the second year of Covid and it still exists in many cases. The only thing about them and Covid is that Amtrak instituted bringing more garbage to your room than what they took away.


----------



## CraigInNC

Triley said:


> It’s great that you agreed to do so, as it really helps out your diner crew, but….they are going against Amtrak policy, and this should _not_ be expected.



I think the loophole is that an introduction was made, the passenger(s) were don't asked to sit there without a choice. It may be a while before we get back to Amtrak seating people together as a matter of form if ever. I think we may end up with a hybrid of people will be given the option or can eat in their rooms. Sitting alone on a first come first serve basis. I was asked for a dining appointment when I was on the Star Tuesday even though there were only 3 booths taken including myself. I am ready to mingle but I understand others are in different positions.


----------



## njdon

Dakota 400 said:


> Many years ago, I did a RT overnight bus trip from Columbus, Ohio to New York City on Trailways Golden Eagle service. Food service, an attendant, pillows distributed, reclining seats with a foot rest (maybe a leg rest as well), and a decent restroom aboard. It was an interesting experience. But, I prefer Amtrak (or as rail travel was at that time).


I rode the Trailways Five Star Golden Eagle Service from LA to Philly back in’62. Those amenities really made for a comfortable trip. Not as good as the train but less expensive I think.


----------



## Triley

me_little_me said:


> Is Covid over? No more masks? Nobody dying? Nobody being hospitalized?
> 
> As far as Covid is concerned, flex meals have no relationship to them. They were implemented before Covid so to be accurate, the current ones are better than the ones in December 2019 (my first experience) and for some period before then. They kept the garbage well into the second year of Covid and it still exists in many cases. The only thing about them and Covid is that Amtrak instituted bringing more garbage to your room than what they took away.



Thank you once again for reminding me why I take many months away from AU at a time, and enjoy it. 

PM me if you'd like to continue this chat, because I'm done with this forum.


----------



## OBS

joelkfla said:


> There _are _quite few hot options on that menu.
> 
> What's an "Artisan Turkey Sandwich"?


A fancy name for a Turkey sandwich....probably on rustic or artisan bread...


----------



## joelkfla

joelkfla said:


> What's an "Artisan Turkey Sandwich"?





OBS said:


> A fancy name for a Turkey sandwich....probably on rustic or artisan bread...


Of course, but I'm curious what's in it besides turkey -- cheese, guac, sprouts, lettuce, bacon, ... ?


----------



## Rambling Robert

Triley said:


> This menu here is the one you had?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1021.pdf



Thank you Triley - If the National Cafè Menu 1021 is in service for the LSL - I was on the wrong menu. If I want Cafè food that IS an improvement. The dining car would be a nice option even at $45 - if that were an option - haha.


----------



## Dakota 400

joelkfla said:


> Of course, but I'm curious what's in it besides turkey -- cheese, guac, sprouts, lettuce, bacon, ... ?



I don't for certain, but I will take a guess. Some type of cheese, lettuce, tomato with some type of spread on the bread.


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> I attribute that to the forks as much as the food. I don't think those plastic forks were designed to cut anything. They might break just trying to cut a stack of perfectly fine fluffy pancakes.


Stainless steel forks aren't designed to cut anything, either,


----------



## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> Of course, but I'm curious what's in it besides turkey -- cheese, guac, sprouts, lettuce, bacon, ... ?


Higher prices. Fancy names. When it becomes a common thing like on a chain restaurant or Amtrak, it is no longer "Artisan". It just becomes "Marketing Turkey Sandwich".


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is the current Downeaster Cafe menu, the offerings were scaled back due to COVID, but it retains a number of local and regional foods. The Downeaster service is funded by the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority, Amtrak is the contracted operator. Schedules, Cafe Offerings, and the like are decided by the local authority, not Amtrak. 



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Downeaster-Cafe-Menu-2020.pdf


----------



## Rambling Robert

Maverickstation said:


> Here is the current Downeaster Cafe menu, the offerings were scaled back due to COVID, but it retains a number of local and regional foods. The Downeaster service is funded by the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority, Amtrak is the contracted operator. Schedules, Cafe Offerings, and the like are decided by the local authority, not Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Downeaster-Cafe-Menu-2020.pdf



Thanks for the update. I omitted part of my earlier post. 
I couldn’t find menu rev date. In October 2020 I found the cafe car was closed but you could order from your seat. In June 2021 I found the cafe car was opened again


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> Since the value of the dining experience would be reduced (significantly IMHO) by not being seated in the diner and having to eat at one's seat, there needs to be an alternative. Possibly a portion of the cost refunded if there are no available diner seats is one possibility. I can't imagine walking into any restaurant charging those prices and having already paid for my meal and have the manager tell me that they are full so I'll have to take my meal home and eat it. Also, Amtrak needs to dramatically increase their food reliability. Again, if I've paid for a meal and x entree is unavailable or they have run out of desserts (like on our return trip last Sunday), Amtrak will only drive potential business away. Their inability to provide sufficient product for their diners and cafes is well known in this forum. To make it worse by charging one in advance and not being able to deliver is downright criminal. Remember, this is not a unique thing but something that seems to happen regularly on Amtrak.


Hopefully after COVID this will be less of an issue.


----------



## lordsigma

CraigInNC said:


> I think the loophole is that an introduction was made, the passenger(s) were don't asked to sit there without a choice. It may be a while before we get back to Amtrak seating people together as a matter of form if ever. I think we may end up with a hybrid of people will be given the option or can eat in their rooms. Sitting alone on a first come first serve basis. I was asked for a dining appointment when I was on the Star Tuesday even though there were only 3 booths taken including myself. I am ready to mingle but I understand others are in different positions.


They did it for a short while this past summer when traditional dining first came back before Delta started becoming a big thing. They would ask you before your first meal if you were ok with communal - and they appeared to set aside some tables for those who said no. I said yes and was seated the traditional communal way all my meals.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Hopefully after COVID this will be less of an issue.


Covid had no effect on this issue. Running out of food is an Amtrak specialty.


----------



## Lonnie

Triley said:


> It’s great that you agreed to do so, as it really helps out your diner crew, but….they are going against Amtrak policy, and this should _not_ be expected.


On our recent trip west on the CZ I was surprised to see them doing this. One couple politely refused and they were totally fine with it, while another couple welcomed a single diner. It does seem quite counter to the very clear warnings about what happens to the "problem child" who repeatedly is caught not wearing a mask. While I really love eating with strangers, the possible consequences are really too dire for me to agree to this at this time. It's too bad.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> Covid had no effect on this issue. Running out of food is an Amtrak specialty.


Was referring to table reservations being unavailable I should have shortened the quote. With COVID they aren't doing communal seating which limits the amount of reservations - which makes it more likely they'll run out and people will have to eat at their seat.


----------



## fillyjonk

I'm wondering if the much-vaunted supply shortages/increase prices are gonna hit Amtrak. The last time I rode (very late July), they had two or three meals (of the not-very-extensive-already list) crossed off as unavailable - this was for a train originating in Chicago, so no one had had dinner before I got on.

I'm a bit of a picky eater and I hope I don't find a menu selection of two: "take it" or "leave it" on any of my upcoming trips, I guess I try to at least take some granola bars and dry fruit in case. (I don't have enough luggage allowance for a cooler - get on at a station without checked bag service, so I have a suitcase, a carry on, and my purse and that's already a lot to carry)


----------



## me_little_me

fillyjonk said:


> I'm wondering if the much-vaunted supply shortages/increase prices are gonna hit Amtrak. The last time I rode (very late July), they had two or three meals (of the not-very-extensive-already list) crossed off as unavailable - this was for a train originating in Chicago, so no one had had dinner before I got on.
> 
> I'm a bit of a picky eater and I hope I don't find a menu selection of two: "take it" or "leave it" on any of my upcoming trips, I guess I try to at least take some granola bars and dry fruit in case. (I don't have enough luggage allowance for a cooler - get on at a station without checked bag service, so I have a suitcase, a carry on, and my purse and that's already a lot to carry)


As I mentioned, Amtrak has a history of not loading sufficient items on their trains. Hard to believe when you know well in advance in nearly every case what the passenger load will be. You also leave money on the table when you don't have enough for coach passengers. Rampant incompetence was not caused by Covid.


----------



## neroden

Sidney said:


> You pay $45 for the dinner ordering the steak,which is the only meal worth that price and when it's meal time they are out of it. Not good.


Given Amtrak's inexplicable refusal to publish ingredients lists, steak is literally the only thing on the dinner menu I can order. If they're out, I'm getting a refund.


----------



## Skylark

Praise should be given when due - food on SWC with trad dining recently was generally quite good. 

I didn't order it as mushrooms are about the 1 vegetable I just really don't care for, but I did try the roasted chicken breast with mushroom sauce and it was good (not too mushroomy either). Chicken was tender and a good portion. Wish I could source the chicken for my own cooking! I heard another passenger raving about it too. 3 others in my travel party enjoyed their food as well. Vegan chili was good as well, I'm wondering what type of meat substitute they used.


----------



## cassie225

When are we gonna get this on the Crescent? I’m waiting patiently. Also I know this might be in another thread that I can’t find but will Crescent ever get new sleepers, coach cars, etc


----------



## jis

cassie225 said:


> Also I know this might be in another thread that I can’t find but will Crescent ever get new sleepers, coach cars, etc


Crescent already has the same Coach cars that the other Eastern LDs have. Anything newer than that is at least ten years away. Crescent is unlikely to get all new Sleepers. It might get one new Sleeper at some point.


----------



## Dakota 400

me_little_me said:


> As I mentioned, Amtrak has a history of not loading sufficient items on their trains. Hard to believe when you know well in advance in nearly every case what the passenger load will be. You also leave money on the table when you don't have enough for coach passengers. Rampant incompetence was not caused by Covid.



It's poor planning when the SWC runs out of small bottles of one type of wine before the end of the first night's dinner out of Los Angeles.


----------



## OBS

Dakota 400 said:


> It's poor planning when the SWC runs out of small bottles of one type of wine before the end of the first night's dinner out of Los Angeles.


It is really inexcusable since it is a non perishable, high profit item!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> It's poor planning when the SWC runs out of small bottles of one type of wine before the end of the first night's dinner out of Los Angeles.


Sort of like the Diner running out of items during the first Dinner setting upon leaving Chicago. I've had this happen numerous times on the Eagle,the Zephyr,the Chief,the Builder, the Cap and the CONO (when it still served real food!)


----------



## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> Sort of like the Diner running out of items during the first Dinner setting upon leaving Chicago. I've had this happen numerous times on the Eagle,the Zephyr,the Chief,the Builder, the Cap and the CONO (when it still served real food!)



An imaginary conversation between the LSA and the Conductor, then between the Conductor and the Engineer:

LSA: Mr. Conductor, we need to make a grocery stop when the train passes through city X. There is a grocery store next to the tracks.

Conductor: I'll contact our Engineer.

Conductor: Mr. Engineer, there is a grocery store in city X next to the tracks. Please make a stop there so that our LSA can make a grocery run and replenish the dining car's supplies.

Engineer: Will do. Ask the LSA to pick up a bag of potato chips for me. I need a snack.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> An imaginary conversation between the LSA and the Conductor, then between the Conductor and the Engineer:
> 
> LSA: Mr. Conductor, we need to make a grocery stop when the train passes through city X. There is a grocery store next to the tracks.
> 
> Conductor: I'll contact our Engineer.
> 
> Conductor: Mr. Engineer, there is a grocery store in city X next to the tracks. Please make a stop there so that our LSA can make a grocery run and replenish the dining car's supplies.
> 
> Engineer: Will do. Ask the LSA to pick up a bag of potato chips for me. I need a snack.


When the Diner Crew used to get off the Eagle @ Austin ( resulting in "Dinner" being served very Early and "Breakfast"being a Boxed Meal)the Crew used to shop @ Local Markets and board with great ingredients for Crew Meals that the Excellent Chefs on that route would prepare. 

I was fortunate enough to be invited several times to share these feasts when I was a frequent rider on the Northbound Eagle and knew all the Crews, most of whom are now retired or working other routes!


----------



## Maverickstation

Helping a friend navigate the Amtrak website in general, and Amtrak Food Facts in particular we had an interesting discovery.
While Food Facts is far from perfect, it does help people who need to monitor issues like sodium in take make smart choices.

At first we could not figure out why the scrambled eggs, with potatoes was so high in sodium (they way the potatoes are made, perhaps), then I noticed, Amtrak is not using fresh cracked eggs as they were in pre-COVID traditional dining service. 



http://amtrakfoodfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/AMTRAK-SDG-0616021-03.pdf



Ken


----------



## neroden

Maverickstation said:


> Helping a friend navigate the Amtrak website in general, and Amtrak Food Facts in particular we had an interesting discovery.
> While Food Facts is far from perfect, it does help people who need to monitor issues like sodium in take make smart choices.
> 
> At first we could not figure out why the scrambled eggs, with potatoes was so high in sodium (they way the potatoes are made, perhaps), then I noticed, Amtrak is not using fresh cracked eggs as they were in pre-COVID traditional dining service.
> 
> 
> 
> http://amtrakfoodfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/AMTRAK-SDG-0616021-03.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Ken



That also shows that they're adding milk to the eggs for no readily explicable reason. (Which makes them inedible for my dairy-allergic friends.)


----------



## Tlcooper93

Is the westbound Empire Builder Seattle Section serving breakfast in the morning just before arrival?
When purchasing my ticket, I noticed the Portland section was about $400 more expensive than the Seattle section. I figured this is not for the food, given the diner is coming to Seattle.


----------



## Cal

Tlcooper93 said:


> Is the westbound Empire Builder Seattle Section serving breakfast in the morning just before arrival?


According to Amtrak they do, I believe I've seen videos of them serving breakfast before. 



Tlcooper93 said:


> When purchasing my ticket, I noticed the Portland section was about $400 more expensive than the Seattle section. I figured this is not for the food, given the diner is coming to Seattle.


Probably due to the lower amount of rooms available, buckets are higher.


----------



## alanh

neroden said:


> That also shows that they're adding milk to the eggs for no readily explicable reason. (Which makes them inedible for my dairy-allergic friends.)


It may be the cheese that's the dairy allergen.

It's been a while since I've been on board (I'm finally looking at coming back) but a classic complaint was that you couldn't get eggs your way because they were using pasteurized liquid eggs, so scrambled was the only option. Did that change that at some point?


----------



## niemi24s

Cal said:


> Probably due to the lower amount of rooms available, buckets are higher.


Cal nailed it. The individual bucket levels on the EB to/from PDX are actually only $1 or $2 more than those on the EB to/from SEA. If you poke around on Arrow long enough using different dates, you might even find one where the SEA section was $400 more than the PDX section for the same kind of room.


----------



## acelafan

Tlcooper93 said:


> Is the westbound Empire Builder Seattle Section serving breakfast in the morning just before arrival?
> When purchasing my ticket, I noticed the Portland section was about $400 more expensive than the Seattle section. I figured this is not for the food, given the diner is coming to Seattle.


I was on #7 about a week ago and yes, breakfast is served. I think the diner opens at 530 AM if I remember right.


----------



## Cal

acelafan said:


> I was on #7 about a week ago and yes, breakfast is served. I think the diner opens at 530 AM if I remember right.


On #3, breakfast starts at 5 AM, final call was made at 6.


----------



## ReadingCrusader

joelkfla said:


> Just got back from a FL-NY round trip on the Meteor, featuring(?) Flex Dining.
> 
> Thumbs up on the Salmon, Enchilada, and French Toast.
> 
> Chicken ala Rosa -- ok in a pinch, but I wouldn't order it again unless I were on a multi-night trip and got tired of the salmon.
> 
> Table syrup was served with French Toast in both directions. Tabasco was available northbound (I didn't ask southbound.) Warm roll with butter included in both dinners (can't remember about lunch.) No salads southbound; SCA said they were received frozen so they were discarded. Northbound salad included choice of ranch or Italian dressing.
> 
> Moynihan Lounge at NYP had excellent pre-packaged salad, nice little sandwiches & roll-ups, high-end bottled soda, good coffee, and a good selection of snacks and pre-packaged pound cake slices.
> 
> ETA: Forgot to mention: dining car was nearly empty. Most I saw was about 4 tables occupied at a breakfast. I noticed a fairly steady stream of SCA'S carrying food out, and one passenger picking up and carrying out his own food. I wandered into the Cafe car just for a peek, and there was a prettty good-sized line.



Just rode 92, Silver Star. Everyone has different tastes but I personally took one bite of the salmon and could not eat any more. Tried the rice and it was suffused with what I thought was a disgusting taste. All I could eat was the mini salad, roll and dessert. For the rest of the long trip I ate some food I had brought along. I wish they could return to the 'Contemporary Dining" they featured when they first dropped real food service. The cold meat/cheese platter was really good. It even included a half (375 ml) bottle of quality wine (I think Chateau St Jean). What they are serving now is worse than any airline food I have ever had. I don't know how they could do worse. Oh...I did eat breakfast. Coffee, muffin and decent yogurt. That was OK.


----------



## Sidney

ReadingCrusader said:


> Just rode 92, Silver Star. Everyone has different tastes but I personally took one bite of the salmon and could not eat any more. Tried the rice and it was suffused with what I thought was a disgusting taste. All I could eat was the mini salad, roll and dessert. For the rest of the long trip I ate some food I had brought along. I wish they could return to the 'Contemporary Dining" they featured when they first dropped real food service. The cold meat/cheese platter was really good. It even included a half (375 ml) bottle of quality wine (I think Chateau St Jean). What they are serving now is worse than any airline food I have ever had. I don't know how they could do worse. Oh...I did eat breakfast. Coffee, muffin and decent yogurt. That was OK.


I've had the flex french toast twice and each time I broke a fork trying to cut it. Too hard to eat. A complete 180 from traditional dining french toast. Traditional dining can't return soon enough to the Eastern trains and the Eagle.


----------



## tonys96

Sidney said:


> I've had the flex french toast twice and each time I broke a fork trying to cut it. Too hard to eat. A complete 180 from traditional dining french toast. Traditional dining can't return soon enough to the Eastern trains and the Eagle.


----------



## cassie225

I hope so, u know something??? Lol


----------



## Hans627

We have a trip planned on the Auto Train later this week and we are curious what we can expect relative to meal service. What is the latest?

Thanks!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Cal said:


> On #3, breakfast starts at 5 AM, final call was made at 6.


Seriously? I'd rather they simply not serve anything than wake up to a 6AM last call message four hours before arrival.


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## pennyk

Hans627 said:


> We have a trip planned on the Auto Train later this week and we are curious what we can expect relative to meal service. What is the latest?
> 
> Thanks!



Here is a link to a trip report by a member who traveled on the Auto Train in late November:





Recent Auto Train experience


Thought folks might appreciate a recap of a recent, late November Auto Train experience. Round trip LOR>SFA and back. Have been on this train several times before but not since Covid. Masks enforced at the stations, which was comforting, but mostly waited outside. Still have to manually check...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## OBS

pennyk said:


> Here is a link to a trip report by a member who traveled on the Auto Train in late November:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recent Auto Train experience
> 
> 
> Thought folks might appreciate a recap of a recent, late November Auto Train experience. Round trip LOR>SFA and back. Have been on this train several times before but not since Covid. Masks enforced at the stations, which was comforting, but mostly waited outside. Still have to manually check...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


This is assuming the OP is in a sleeper....


----------



## lordsigma

Hans627 said:


> We have a trip planned on the Auto Train later this week and we are curious what we can expect relative to meal service. What is the latest?
> 
> Thanks!


They are serving the standard traditional dining entrees also served in the west - starting out with a salad and dinner roll (salad is a better portion than what’s served on flexible dining trains.) along with the three desserts offered out west plus an ice cream option (ice cream is unique to the auto train.)


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## Cal

Devil's Advocate said:


> Seriously? I'd rather they simply not serve anything than wake up to a 6AM last call message four hours before arrival.


Scheduled arrival time is at 8 AM, although with padding it can be as early as 7:30. It gives them ample time to clean up prior to arrival.


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## Devil's Advocate

Cal said:


> Scheduled arrival time is at 8 AM, although with padding it can be as early as 7:30. It gives them ample time to clean up prior to arrival.


I'm not that familiar with the EB so I did a query for SEA and PDX before posting and both showed arrivals ~ 10:30AM. I did not see any special schedule alerts but I may have missed them among the sea of advertising for Amtrak's other business of selling credit cards and commuter status.


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## Cal

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not that familiar with the EB so I did a query for SEA and PDX before posting and both showed arrivals ~ 10:30AM. I did not see any special schedule alerts but I may have missed them among the sea of advertising for Amtrak's other business of selling credit cards and commuter status.


Well, I was just talking about the the Southwest Chief and my recent(ish) experience on #3 into Socal


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## Devil's Advocate

Cal said:


> Well, I was just talking about the the Southwest Chief and my recent(ish) experience on #3 into Socal


Sometimes I should just stop while I'm on the wrong track rather than risk derailing completely.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

For sleeping car passengers, has Covid 19 made you want to eat in your room rather than venture in the dining car? Do the dining cars on your train line space apart their patrons? Are the dining cars closed?


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## Sauve850

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> For sleeping car passengers, has Covid 19 made you want to eat in your room rather than venture in the dining car? Do the dining cars on your train line space apart their patrons? Are the dining cars closed?


Never had any interest in eating in my room. My last trip was September from Chicago on Cardinal and Star to Florida. I ate no meals in my room and was always seated alone. Many empty spaces to eat. Most everyone seemed to eat in their rooms.


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## me_little_me

We ate one meal in our rooms on the Cardinal after 13 meals on the Cardinal and Zephyr round trip. We only did it because the SCA said we had to as there was "no diner". Funny, but the cafe-diner was the same in both directions.


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## Railspike

About to take a LD trip in a few weeks. What's the latest status of dining in the dining car vs dining in your room. Passenger choice?


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## pennyk

Railspike said:


> About to take a LD trip in a few weeks. What's the latest status of dining in the dining car vs dining in your room. Passenger choice?


I am on the Silver Meteor right now and we are given the option for dining car or room. It may vary with crew and train. I believe many crews on the Cardinal are strongly suggesting that passengers dine in their rooms.


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## Amtrakfflyer

On the SWC in late December it was your choice. Diner was never more than a few tables full. Found the food to be slighter better than prior edition of traditional dining. Entrees were about the same but appetizers and desserts definitely an improvement (and of course the free drinks). Is it worth what in our case was a $900 increase in price over same trips previous years? No, but time will tell if fares come back down to what common folk, who aren’t first time train riders are willing to pay.


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## jruff001

Devil's Advocate said:


> Seriously? I'd rather they simply not serve anything than wake up to a 6AM last call message four hours before arrival.


That was about # 3, which is scheduled to arrive LA at 0800.


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## Oaxacajo

Sidney said:


> Again...if flexible dining is here to stay,and I'm afraid it is,why can't there be an improvement in what is being offered?


I recently rode the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Chicago and was served Flex Meals. I really can not understand what all the fuss is about. The meals I had, while not on a par with traditional dining that I also experienced San Antonio to Los Angeles, were fine. I don't know where everyone complaining about them usually eats...in five star restaurants? My Flex Meals were warm, tasty, and filling. Would I rather have traditional dining on all trains? Of course, I would. However, in my opinion, Flex Meals are nowhere near as horrible as people make them sound.


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## neroden

Oaxacajo said:


> I don't know where everyone complaining about them usually eats...in five star restaurants?


I live in a city which was determined at one point to have the highest number of restaurants per capita in the US. They nearly all make food from scratch with fresh local ingredients and they're all cheap by big city standards.

Yes, I may be a bit spoiled.

My actual issue with Flex Meals is that they have a hell of a lot of additives and as a result, I'm allergic to every one I've seen the ingredients lists for. There are higher grades of prepackaged meal (with *fewer* ingredients -- simpler but better) which I am fine with.


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## Oaxacajo

neroden said:


> I live in a city which was determined at one point to have the highest number of restaurants per capita in the US. They nearly all make food from scratch with fresh local ingredients and they're all cheap by big city standards.
> 
> Yes, I may be a bit spoiled.
> 
> My actual issue with Flex Meals is that they have a hell of a lot of additives and as a result, I'm allergic to every one I've seen the ingredients lists for. There are higher grades of prepackaged meal (with *fewer* ingredients -- simpler but better) which I am fine with.


Your issue (allergic) is a legitimate concern. I wasn't referring to allergy issues. I was refering to descriptions such as "garbage, cardboard, vomit, etc."


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## crescent-zephyr

Oaxacajo said:


> I recently rode the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Chicago and was served Flex Meals. I really can not understand what all the fuss is about. The meals I had, while not on a par with traditional dining that I also experienced San Antonio to Los Angeles, were fine. I don't know where everyone complaining about them usually eats...in five star restaurants? My Flex Meals were warm, tasty, and filling. Would I rather have traditional dining on all trains? Of course, I would. However, in my opinion, Flex Meals are nowhere near as horrible as people make them sound.



What would you compare flex meals to if you were describing them to someone who’s never ridden a train?


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## Oaxacajo

crescent-zephyr said:


> What would you compare flex meals to if you were describing them to someone who’s never ridden a train?


Perhaps I'd describe them as a very limited menu but basic food such as served in a diner. I do realize that the food experience also depends a lot on the cafe person getting it ready and serving it.


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## tricia

Oaxacajo said:


> Perhaps I'd describe them as a very limited menu but basic food such as served in a diner. I do realize that the food experience also depends a lot on the cafe person getting it ready and serving it.



I've never had food like that in a diner, and if I did I'd never go back.

Flex food is most like frozen dinners at the cheap end of that aisle in a supermarket.


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## me_little_me

Oaxacajo said:


> Perhaps I'd describe them as a very limited menu but basic food such as served in a diner. I do realize that the food experience also depends a lot on the cafe person getting it ready and serving it.


Not my kind of diner and I accept almost any diner food.

I don't know any diners that pull out a ready-made low quality TV dinner from the freezer and microwave it.

I stand by the garbage, cardboard and vomit except recently where some of it has been upgraded to low quality TV dinners. I have yet to finish a single one of them, even recent ones and it's not because I'm full.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Oaxacajo said:


> Perhaps I'd describe them as a very limited menu but basic food such as served in a diner. I do realize that the food experience also depends a lot on the cafe person getting it ready and serving it.



That’s what I would call Amtrak’s standard menu.


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## Devil's Advocate

Oaxacajo said:


> I don't know where everyone complaining about them usually eats...in five star restaurants?


I don't expect five star dining unless I'm paying five star prices and at the time Amtrak switched to Flex meals they were charging the highest fares I had ever seen up to that point.



Oaxacajo said:


> Perhaps I'd describe them as a very limited menu but basic food such as served in a diner.


Even a basic diner can add or remove items and adjust cooking times by request. Flexible dining is more like those vending machine meals you find in some office break rooms.


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## Sidney

A few of the item like the ribs are OK. Most of the flex meals are sub par. For the cost of a sleeper you expect and deserve better food. I don't understand why they can't serve sandwiches.

Worst is breakfast. Last couple of times I had the french toast I broke a fork trying to cut it. The omelette looks awful. Again if we are stuck with flex on the Eastern trains how about some improvement?


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## Amtrakfflyer

They could put Acela first meals including breakfasts on the trains if they wanted. They don’t want to and that speaks volumes.









Amtrak breaks out the good china again with new Acela first-class menu | WTOP News


After months of serving prepackaged food with disposable service items as part of its COVID-19 safety protocols, Amtrak has brought back proper plates and serviceware to its meal service in Acela first-class cars.




wtop.com




.


----------



## Cal

Railspike said:


> About to take a LD trip in a few weeks. What's the latest status of dining in the dining car vs dining in your room. Passenger choice?


on the SWC in mid December you could do either. Diner was packed, although it was around Christmas


----------



## fillyjonk

the problem I've had lately with the flex meals is that it seems like they over-microwave them. So the pasta in the pasta and meatballs has hardened up at the edges and is gluey elsewhere. On one trip the French toast was so hard I couldn't easily cut it (wound up breaking it with my hands). When it's heated properly it's OK but...there seems to be a really narrow sweet spot between "dangerously underdone" and "dried out and overcooked. 

This most recent trip I ate dinner in my room (the diner had already filled up) and breakfast alone in the diner.


----------



## fdaley

me_little_me said:


> I don't know any diners that pull out a ready-made low quality TV dinner from the freezer and microwave it.



And to top it off, they serve in its freezer tub with plastic cutlery. The food quality is poor, and the presentation is horrible. And this is for premium-fare customers.


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## lordsigma

Seems like Sometimes they put it in the oven and sometimes nuke it. On the flex trains running with a Viewliner II dining car I have seen them use the convection oven for the flex meals - not sure if all LSAs do it or if they do it differently in the split amcafe setup that’s on the crescent and cardinal (or CCC car on cap, CONO, and TE.)


----------



## lordsigma

Oaxacajo said:


> I recently rode the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Chicago and was served Flex Meals. I really can not understand what all the fuss is about. The meals I had, while not on a par with traditional dining that I also experienced San Antonio to Los Angeles, were fine. I don't know where everyone complaining about them usually eats...in five star restaurants? My Flex Meals were warm, tasty, and filling. Would I rather have traditional dining on all trains? Of course, I would. However, in my opinion, Flex Meals are nowhere near as horrible as people make them sound.


I personally don’t find them horrible - but then again I do like salt. I didn’t think the breakfast omelette one was that great though. Most of the dinner ones I’ve had have been fine with a couple I actually legitimately liked. I had one weird once off deal on the Coast Starlight (just before they went back to traditional) where they had a meat and veggie lasagna as a “special” in addition to the normal flex items and the FSS also had some AmCafe burgers and dogs down in the diner kitchen as an alternative. The lasagna was not in the typical container that the flex meals come in from that new horizons place so this must have been some special deal the commissary whipped up - the lasagna was quite good. Of course then a week later on my trip home on the Chief I got traditional dining and ate like a king - also was that crew’s first trip with the chef back and they were just thrilled to be doing it again.


----------



## MARC Rider

lordsigma said:


> Seems like Sometimes they put it in the oven and sometimes nuke it. On the flex trains running with a Viewliner II dining car I have seen them use the convection oven for the flex meals - not sure if all LSAs do it or if they do it differently in the split amcafe setup that’s on the crescent and cardinal (or CCC car on cap, CONO, and TE.)


It might also depend on the passenger load. If the sleepers are full and they have a lot of meals to serve, they may resort to microwaving the meals to save time. This is especially true if there's only one person serving meals. I think it doesn't matter whether they're using the diner or the Amfleet diner-lite cafe car, as the cafe cars have convection ovens/toasters, too. On the other hand, the diners may have overns with larger capacities than the cafe cars. But the real issue is probably the staffing level, which is also why they're served in the freezer dishes with plastic cutlery.


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## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> It might also depend on the passenger load. If the sleepers are full and they have a lot of meals to serve, they may resort to microwaving the meals to save time. This is especially true if there's only one person serving meals. I think it doesn't matter whether they're using the diner or the Amfleet diner-lite cafe car, as the cafe cars have convection ovens/toasters, too. On the other hand, the diners may have overns with larger capacities than the cafe cars. But the real issue is probably the staffing level, which is also why they're served in the freezer dishes with plastic cutlery.


You forget that these "meals" preceded Covid so that argument doesn't hold unless you are agreeing that Amtrak cut the staff too much to provide sufficient service to customers then decided not to restore enough people to do it right. That was deliberate on their part.


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## fillyjonk

lordsigma said:


> Seems like Sometimes they put it in the oven and sometimes nuke it. On the flex trains running with a Viewliner II dining car I have seen them use the convection oven for the flex meals - not sure if all LSAs do it or if they do it differently in the split amcafe setup that’s on the crescent and cardinal (or CCC car on cap, CONO, and TE.)


 You know - that might explain why the first pasta meal I had when I started traveling again (May?) was pretty good - it was served in a foil container and I bet they did it in a convection oven. But more recently, they've been in plastic plates and are pretty clearly microwaved. 

It would be - seemingly - a simple thing to just do convection oven for stuff, and serve it in convection oven safe things. I find microwaves are really spotty about how they heat things (sometimes at home I eat frozen dinners when I'm in a hurry and one of my complaints is how part of them gets overdone and part is undercooked. Am planning a kitchen renovation in the coming months and am NOT lookingforward to microwaved everything for the however-long it takes the renovation)


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## greg1956a

I'm planing a trip on the Zepjyr sometime this year I'm going coach can I there meals in the dining room.or do I have to cafe car


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## zephyr17

At this time the dining car is restricted to sleeping car passengers on the Zephyr. Coach passengers are limited to the cafe.


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## GAT

I am boarding the following trains in April. Assuming they depart on time ( I board three at their originating point) can I expect to be able to get breakfast right after departure, or will it be too late?

#6 – Departs EMY 9:10 am

#19 – Departs ATL 9:08 am

#1 Departs NOL 9:00 am

#14 Departs LAX 9:51 am

NOL would probably be the only place I would want to drop cash on a quality breakfast, since I am traveling sleeper on these trains.

Also, I presume I will be able to get dinner on #50, since it departs CHI at 5:55 pm.

I am aware that #9 and #50 have café cars only, so it would be flex dining on them.

Thanks.


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## zephyr17

No breakfast is served on 6 departing Emeryville or 14 departing LA. First meal service on both is lunch.


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## OBS

You might have a chance on #19, assuming it is relatively on time....


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## me_little_me

OBS said:


> You might have a chance on #19, assuming it is relatively on time....


One of these "flex food" days, I'm going to bring aboard some fresh pastries and fruit along with real silver, china and tablecloth when I can be assured we can eat breakfast in the diner, then just have them bring me butter and coffee. Then I'll set it all out and when other passengers come by and stare, I'll tell them "Well, the food and service sure have improved!"


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## GAT

Thanks, Zephyr17 and OBS. I'll plan accordingly. I'll get breakfast at home before heading to EMY, and I guess I'll have to eat in LAUS while transferring from #1. I have over 4 hours layover. Maybe there's a decent restaurant nearby the station. And I'll take a breakfast snack with me on #19.


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## TheCrescent

George said:


> I am boarding the following trains in April. Assuming they depart on time ( I board three at their originating point) can I expect to be able to get breakfast right after departure, or will it be too late?
> 
> #6 – Departs EMY 9:10 am
> 
> #19 – Departs ATL 9:08 am
> 
> #1 Departs NOL 9:00 am
> 
> #14 Departs LAX 9:51 am
> 
> NOL would probably be the only place I would want to drop cash on a quality breakfast, since I am traveling sleeper on these trains.
> 
> Also, I presume I will be able to get dinner on #50, since it departs CHI at 5:55 pm.
> 
> I am aware that #9 and #50 have café cars only, so it would be flex dining on them.
> 
> Thanks.



Surely there's a Chick-fil-A within range of the Atlanta station. I don't even bother with Flexible Dining breakfasts; they're basically what you could buy off the shelf at a gas station, and there's a strong likelihood of being fussed at by the cafe car attendant.


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## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> Surely there's a Chick-fil-A within range of the Atlanta station. I don't even bother with Flexible Dining breakfasts; they're basically what you could buy off the shelf at a gas station, and there's a strong likelihood of being fussed at by the cafe car attendant.


0.6 mile walk. 11 minute walk.
9 minutes walk and bus combined.


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## GAT

Chick-fil-A? CHICK-FIL-AA????  Oh well, maybe there's a Bob Evans nearby.


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## Joe from PA

I think the Microwave food is OK. Next trip I'll order beef for BOTH lunch and supper. What is the alternative...flying?  Taking a bus? Suggest you bring a picnic basket from home...or stay home.


----------



## Sidney

Joe from PA said:


> I think the Microwave food is OK. Next trip I'll order beef for BOTH lunch and supper. What is the alternative...flying?  Taking a bus? Suggest you bring a picnic basket from home...or stay home.


For what you are paying for a slseper flex food is not OK. Contrast it with traditional dining. Like night and day.


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## jis

Sidney said:


> For what you are paying for a slseper flex food is not OK. Contrast it with traditional dining. Like night and day.


Dunno. I find it fine. But then I don't ride trains to eat great food, so it is a non issue for me.


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## Rasputin

Joe from PA said:


> What is the alternative...flying?


Yes.


----------



## TheCrescent

Sidney said:


> For what you are paying for a slseper flex food is not OK. Contrast it with traditional dining. Like night and day.



Agreed and contrast it to first class meals on domestic airline flights. They are significantly better.


----------



## joelkfla

TheCrescent said:


> Agreed and contrast it to first class meals on domestic airline flights. They are significantly better.


That's not what I'm hearing from trip reports the last couple of years -- mostly snack packs or a nasty sandwich with unrecognizable contents. International flights, probably so.


----------



## fdaley

Joe from PA said:


> What is the alternative...flying?



Flying. Driving. Or staying home. So far I've mostly stuck to options 2 and 3 to avoid the flex trains. A fair amount of travel ultimately is discretionary.


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## me_little_me

Joe from PA said:


> I think the Microwave food is OK. Next trip I'll order beef for BOTH lunch and supper. What is the alternative...flying?  Taking a bus? Suggest you bring a picnic basket from home...or stay home.


Is your name Mikey? Liked Life Cereal. Consumer Reports rates them as only having average nutrition.


----------



## TaseMeBro

As a very minor aside, I had dinner in the CS dining car yesterday. Very small crowds, and service much the same as in October. Mixed drinks and wine in glass, other drinks in plastic. Plating was plastic, but good quality and branded. Metal flatware and cloth napkins.

Food was good, though the chef was clearly taking some liberties. Both my steak and my mom's chicken were served with *massive* portions of sides (heaping plate). I'm certainly not complaining, but worth pointing out.

Also, the miso buerre blanc sauce, listed for the salmon, was used very generous as a plate garnish on both the steak and chicken. While it might be tasty w/ the salmon - it definitely didn't mix well with the red wine steak sauce.

A great meal, though, and service was excellent. Was my mom's first time on a long distance train, or having a dining car meal, and she loved it.


----------



## CameraObscura76

fillyjonk said:


> the problem I've had lately with the flex meals is that it seems like they over-microwave them. So the pasta in the pasta and meatballs has hardened up at the edges and is gluey elsewhere. On one trip the French toast was so hard I couldn't easily cut it (wound up breaking it with my hands). When it's heated properly it's OK but...there seems to be a really narrow sweet spot between "dangerously underdone" and "dried out and overcooked.
> 
> This most recent trip I ate dinner in my room (the diner had already filled up) and breakfast alone in the diner.


This was my breakfast yesterday morning…rubbery French toast with very undercooked bacon. I only took a couple of bites and just ended up throwing it away. I can’t believe Amtrak deems this acceptable for first class service.


----------



## IndyLions

TheCrescent said:


> Agreed and contrast it to first class meals on domestic airline flights. They are significantly better.


I have been on probably a dozen domestic first class flights in the last six months. I have had a grand total of one meal, period. It was a meal marginally better than flex food - maybe.

Other than that, the absolute zenith on every other flight has been a cup of coffee in a foam cup, with a biscotti to dip in it.


----------



## fillyjonk

CameraObscura76 said:


> This was my breakfast yesterday morning…rubbery French toast with very undercooked bacon. I only took a couple of bites and just ended up throwing it away. I can’t believe Amtrak deems this acceptable for first class service. View attachment 26905


Yeah that's like what I got one time - bacon underdone, toast overdone. Not sure how that happens when they're cooked in the same container. I guess I just accept it because I've concluded everything is terrible now. (teaching 2 years during a pandemic has broken me and made me just expect the worst)


----------



## TheCrescent

joelkfla said:


> That's not what I'm hearing from trip reports the last couple of years -- mostly snack packs or a nasty sandwich with unrecognizable contents. International flights, probably so.



Try airline meals.net or having a first-class airline meal instead of hearing things secondhand.

The filet mignon that I had on a 3-hour flight on American Airlines a while back was excellent.

There’s certainly a range of quality, but At least airlines serve first-class meals on real china with metal silverware, and unlimited adult beverages in real glasses. If Amtrak did that with flexible dining, it would help.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> First, food trucks would be inadequate to handle the potentially large crowds (including coach passengers) who suddenly want their hot food, drinks, etc and who all have to pay. Nowhere enough time even at most "smoking" stops. Would cause too much delay. The only externally supplied food would be something already prepared, heated, paid for, named for specific passenger, and directly turned over to Amtrak crew so it could be distributed even as the train leaves the station or after. Then what happens if someone wanting or NEEDING a specific thing (no mayo, not too spicy, gluten free, etc) doesn't get the correct thing or meals are mixed up and one person is already eating the wrong thing. The burrito lady in El Paso can do it because it is a small cash business with only a few different items kept warm in insulated container instead of a truck but they are all unique to that one stop so there is no need or capability for "specials" and the stop is long and in the middle of the day. Moreover, there are no guarantees that she will be there so there is no dependency on her presence.
> 
> As to "great dining experience", few here are expecting the "great" on this forum. Most want a variety of good edible food and at least some "experience" considering the cost of the sleeper.


I've enjoyed the iconic Burrito Lady's simple cuisine several times... it's tasty and satisfying and only $3. She's been there a long time and the crews seem to know her and promote her business. Similar vendors at Albuquerque stop. It would be great to see more of these 'foodie' opportunities. In fact, there are similar vendors train-side vendors throughout Asia. I don't see why Amtrak couldn't collaborate with more of these entrepreneurs with a simple invite to do so.


----------



## Chatter163

20th Century Rider said:


> I don't see why Amtrak couldn't collaborate with more of these entrepreneurs with a simple invite to do so.



Liability concerns. The suits would tell them not to.


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## tgstubbs1

If the on time performance was good vendors might have more confidence making large enough batches to supply a train full of people.


----------



## cocojacoby

I'm wondering how the "Super Star" is doing feeding 5 sleeper cars. Figuring a max of 150 passengers divided by 3 dinner seatings you are just about at capacity if the Viewliner had the as-designed 48 seats. But with the reduction to 42 seats from the loss of seating due to the poorly executed ADA accommodation and the crew's usual habit of eliminating two tables for set-ups and personal items, it must be kind of hectic.

How about food storage and availably? I bet they are forcing many passengers to eat in their rooms if they want to or not.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> I'm wondering how the "Super Star" is doing feeding 5 sleeper cars. Figuring a max of 150 passengers divided by 3 dinner seatings you are just about at capacity if the Viewliner had the as-designed 48 seats. But with the reduction to 42 seats from the loss of seating due to the poorly executed ADA accommodation and the crew's usual habit of eliminating two tables for set-ups and personal items, it must be kind of hectic.
> 
> How about food storage and availably? I bet they are forcing many passengers to eat in their rooms if they want to or not.


Since apparently more people are eating in their rooms than in the Diner, apparently Diner seating problems is currently a non-issue. It is hard to tell whether they are staying away from the Diner on their own or they are being encouraged to eat in their rooms explicitly.

In the past several months whenever I traveled on the Silvers, I never saw the Diner being a popular place. Most ate in their rooms.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Since apparently more people are eating in their rooms than in the Diner, apparently Diner seating problems is currently a non-issue. It is hard to tell whether they staying away from the Diner on their own or they are being encouraged to eat in their rooms explicitly.
> 
> In the past several months whenever I traveled on the Silvers, I never saw the Diner being a popular place. Most ate in their rooms.


I was going to say the galley might be stretched to capacity, but then I remembered that they're still serving Flex.


----------



## TaseMeBro

jis said:


> Since apparently more people are eating in their rooms than in the Diner, apparently Diner seating problems is currently a non-issue. It is hard to tell whether they staying away from the Diner on their own or they are being encouraged to eat in their rooms explicitly.
> 
> In the past several months whenever I traveled on the Silvers, I never saw the Diner being a popular place. Most ate in their rooms.



I have only my two small observations to add, but both times I've been on the CS in the past few months, just from listening out the sleeper door, it seems like about 50% are opting to eat in the room.

This would align with the pretty small diner crowds I've seen, offers on the PA of the diner open to business class, and a relatively large amount of carryout/room service I've seen leaving the diner.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> I have been on probably a dozen domestic first class flights in the last six months. I have had a grand total of one meal, period. It was a meal marginally better than flex food - maybe. Other than that, the absolute zenith on every other flight has been a cup of coffee in a foam cup, with a biscotti to dip in it.


Maybe it's because I live in the middle of the country but I've rarely needed anything more than a snack and drinks on a domestic flight. Just enough to see me through if there was no time to grab something at the airport. If they served an elaborate meal there wouldn't be much time for me to finish it anyway.



20th Century Rider said:


> In fact, there are similar vendors train-side vendors throughout Asia. I don't see why Amtrak couldn't collaborate with more of these entrepreneurs with a simple invite to do so.


I doubt the Burrito Lady meets most (if any) of the usual health department regulations so that would be the first obstacle to overcome. Personal vehicles and consumer grade insulated coolers are not going to cut it. A licensed food truck might work if Amtrak could maintain dependable scheduling and was willing to provide easy access.


----------



## OBS

Devil's Advocate said:


> I doubt the Burrito Lady meets most (if any) of the usual health department regulations so that would be the first obstacle to overcome. Personal vehicles and consumer grade insulated coolers are not going to cut it. A licensed food truck might work if Amtrak could maintain dependable scheduling and was willing to provide easy access.


And we saw how those Food Trucks for the Auto Train worked out.....


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> And we saw how those Food Trucks for the Auto Train worked out.....


That was an Andersonian dumb idea from the getgo IMHO. Apparently they just expected food trucks to flock to the Auto Train station or something. Did they actually have a contract mechanism that created any commitment from the food trucks in question? I have not been able to get anyone to say anything on that yet.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

OBS said:


> And we saw how those Food Trucks for the Auto Train worked out.....


At my previous office we had a series of rotating food trucks that were invited to setup for lunch. Popular trucks were invited back and new trucks were brought in to cover empty slots. It was by no means perfect but it seemed to work well enough and could be helpful on days when you were rushing against a deadline. The food truck idea will obviously not work everywhere in the Amtrak system but it might work in a few select areas where several variables happen to line up favorably. Was the Auto Train experiment based on research that showed those two stations were the best locations to deploy food trucks or was it simply trying to fill a growing void in Amtrak's service standards?


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## TheCrescent

I view Flexible Dining, even when your food is served in microwave containers with the labels still on, as more first class than "get it yourself from a food truck". But it's certainly subjective as to which one may prefer.


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## Tlcooper93

TheCrescent said:


> I view Flexible Dining, even when your food is served in microwave containers with the labels still on, as more first class than "get it yourself from a food truck". But it's certainly subjective as to which one may prefer.


I think it depends on the food truck. A good Indian, Turkish, or Greek food truck (I realize that’s not what’s being discussed but oh well) is absolutely better than flex and I’d take it in a heart beat, despite the unsexyness of getting it yourself vs. it being served to you.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TheCrescent said:


> I view Flexible Dining, even when your food is served in microwave containers with the labels still on, as more first class than "get it yourself from a food truck". But it's certainly subjective as to which one may prefer.


Coach travelers have no access to Traditional Dining _or_ Flex Meals. Maybe they would prefer having the _option_ of buying food from a truck instead of dragging an ice chest with them or consuming Amtrak's stale pantry fare. Not everyone loves burritos but people seem to enjoy having options, even if they're not premium enough for everyone.


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## me_little_me

cocojacoby said:


> How about food storage and availably? I bet they are forcing many passengers to eat in their rooms if they want to or not.


Passengers in rooms likely figure eating there is better as it is much closer to their toilet when they need to throw up. 

That just leaves the VL2 roomette residents who would have to line up for the two restrooms. For them, the coach restrooms might be a quicker "run" [pun intended].


----------



## Barb Stout

20th Century Rider said:


> I've enjoyed the iconic Burrito Lady's simple cuisine several times... it's tasty and satisfying and only $3. She's been there a long time and the crews seem to know her and promote her business. Similar vendors at Albuquerque stop. It would be great to see more of these 'foodie' opportunities. In fact, there are similar vendors train-side vendors throughout Asia. I don't see why Amtrak couldn't collaborate with more of these entrepreneurs with a simple invite to do so.


I live in ABQ and while I have seen vendors at the train station, I haven't seen food vendors there; the vendors were selling other things like jewelry. I was surprised by the lack of food vendors there because of the long stop in ABQ. Did you actually see food vendors there and what kind of food?


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## Joe from PA

The "microwave" era started 3 months before the "Covid" era. Prior to that, coach passengers were welcome to use the dining car and pay for the meal. The problem was, I never, in 5 trips, saw anyone enter via the coach door (kitchen end). But Amtrak still had to guess meals based on possible coach meal orders. Lots of wasted food.
I had to smile when Amtrak blamed the "Micro-meals" on the virus.


----------



## Cal

Barb Stout said:


> I live in ABQ and while I have seen vendors at the train station, I haven't seen food vendors there; the vendors were selling other things like jewelry. I was surprised by the lack of food vendors there because of the long stop in ABQ. Did you actually see food vendors there and what kind of food?


I think by similar vendors they meant the jewelry ones.


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## Devil's Advocate

Nothing fills me up quite like chewing on a decorative rug and stud earrings are great at picking your teeth clean.


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## me_little_me

Joe from PA said:


> The "microwave" era started 3 months before the "Covid" era. Prior to that, coach passengers were welcome to use the dining car and pay for the meal. The problem was, I never, in 5 trips, saw anyone enter via the coach door (kitchen end). But Amtrak still had to guess meals based on possible coach meal orders. Lots of wasted food.
> I had to smile when Amtrak blamed the "Micro-meals" on the virus.


Do you mean you never saw coach passengers using the diner BEFORE flex? Not sure if that is correct. I have seen many eating before flex and I was one of the coach people eating in the diner on a trip out of Atlanta.


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## crescent2

We've always eaten in the dining car the many times we've traveled coach. That was in the good old days of traditional dining. My last day trips on the Crescent I think I even got to dine in one of those new dining cars with the expensive new kitchens that they (brilliantly) promptly quit using after buying them. 

What's the current dining situation on the Crescent? One post seemed to be saying they don't even have a dining car for the flex meals. Does the Crescent only have a cafe car now?

Also, a friend and I would like to plan a short trip on the Empire Builder for possibly later this year. We want to ride a segment that goes through Glacier NP, not sure whether east- or west-bound, or how long. What's the current dining situation on the EB? It's one of the LD trains I've never taken yet. Thanks!


----------



## Cal

crescent2 said:


> What's the current dining situation on the Crescent? One post seemed to be saying they don't even have a dining car for the flex meals. Does the Crescent only have a cafe car now?


Flex, microwave food. Many think it's terrible, most think a much better product should be given, and everyone thinks traditional dining is better. And IIRC the Crescent is only running with a cafe at the moment. 



crescent2 said:


> Also, a friend and I would like to plan a short trip on the Empire Builder for possibly later this year. We want to ride a segment that goes through Glacier NP, not sure whether east- or west-bound, or how long. What's the current dining situation on the EB? It's one of the LD trains I've never taken yet. Thanks!


I would say go eastbound, if the train is late you still get to see Glacier in the daylight. Currently they have traditional dining, the diner is only open to sleeping car passengers -- coach passengers must get food from the cafe or bring their own.


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## MARC Rider

CameraObscura76 said:


> This was my breakfast yesterday morning…rubbery French toast with very undercooked bacon. I only took a couple of bites and just ended up throwing it away. I can’t believe Amtrak deems this acceptable for first class service. View attachment 26905


Wait a second. Here's my french toast flex breakfast from last October on the Capitol Limited. It wasn't so bad.




The flex food is nothing to write home about, and clearly needs to be improved, but it is edible. In fact, about the only thing on Amtrak that I've been served over the years that was a real culinary disaster was a beef dish I had on the Chief in 2015. That was "Traditional Dining," too. It was bad, but edible. Oh, yes, there was one inedible thing I've been served on Amtrak in all my riding over the years -- that's the kosher omelet. But that was prepared by an outside caterer, so it's really not Amtrak's fault. And there was enough other food in the breakfast pack so that I didn't leave the table hungry.


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## lordsigma

Actually they DO offer flexible dining meals for purchase on the Auto Train in the coach cafe. That’s unique to the auto train only.


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe it's because I live in the middle of the country but I've rarely needed anything more than a snack and drinks on a domestic flight. Just enough to see me through if there was no time to grab something at the airport. If they served an elaborate meal there wouldn't be much time for me to finish it anyway.


I used to think that I couldn't handle a 5-6 hour coast to coast flight without a meal. Then my employer started booking me on Southwest Airlines. I learned how to suck it up and bring a few snackies to keep my blood sugar at reasonable levels. At least most airlines still have beverage service, and some will even sell light stuff more substantial than a bag of pretzels. (I wish Southwest would.) At a number of airports, the gateside vendors sell light meals and sandwiches packed to go. I once bought a Thai dinner at SFO for a flight home, which worked OK, but the food was a bit sloppy to be carrying around. I don't know how I was able to avoid making a mess, but I did. I find the sandwiches from Pret a Manger to be the best for on-board eating. They're well packaged, and not too messy.


----------



## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> Wait a second. Here's my french toast flex breakfast from last October on the Capitol Limited. It wasn't so bad.


You are lucky. A number of us experienced stale or undercooked french toast and dried out or undercooked bacon. For us, it was just inedible and most was left on the plate. That's the problem with microwaving food or cooking in a convection oven and not having the time or interest in making sure it comes out right.


----------



## Sidney

me_little_me said:


> You are lucky. A number of us experienced stale or undercooked french toast and dried out or undercooked bacon. For us, it was just inedible and most was left on the plate. That's the problem with microwaving food or cooking in a convection oven and not having the time or interest in making sure it comes out right.


I've had the flex french toast three times,the masochist that I am. Terrible. I can imagine what the omelette tastes like. The difference in flex and traditional is striking. Ill be on the Coast Starlight and then the Sunset/Eagle to Chicago in three days. The transition from traditional to flex on the Eagle from San Antonio will be jarring.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sidney said:


> I've had the flex french toast three times,the masochist that I am. Terrible. I can imagine what the omelette tastes like. The difference in flex and traditional is striking. Ill be on the Coast Starlight and then the Sunset/Eagle to Chicago in three days. The transition from traditional to flex on the Eagle from San Antonio will be jarring.


As will being a Prisoner in your Room, since there is no Sightseer Lounge on the Eagle, and you won't be allowed to hang out in the CCC ( Combo Diner and Cafe)


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## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> As will being a Prisoner in your Room, since there is no Sightseer Lounge on the Eagle, and you won't be allowed to hang out in the CCC ( Combo Diner and Cafe)


That's terrible. They let us hang out in the CCC on the Capitol Limited when I rode it last October.


----------



## MARC Rider

Sidney said:


> I've had the flex french toast three times,the masochist that I am. Terrible. I can imagine what the omelette tastes like. The difference in flex and traditional is striking. Ill be on the Coast Starlight and then the Sunset/Eagle to Chicago in three days. The transition from traditional to flex on the Eagle from San Antonio will be jarring.


If the flex dining omelet is the same as what they served us in Acela First Class during the Covid downgrade, that's actually sort of edible. What was inedible was the kosher omelet, provided by a different catering service than the one that supplies the flex meals.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> That's terrible. They let us hang out in the CCC on the Capitol Limited when I rode it last October.


The reason is there is only 1 Overworked LSA for the 32+ Hour Trip that has to Serve the Meals ( Flex)to the Sleeping Cars passengers, run the Cafe for the 2 Coaches, and since there is no Transdorm on the Eagle now,the Crew uses the CCC as their Lounge and Work Area, hence there's no where to hang out except in your Room or your Coach Seat!


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> If the flex dining omelet is the same as what they served us in Acela First Class during the Covid downgrade, that's actually sort of edible. What was inedible was the kosher omelet, provided by a different catering service than the one that supplies the flex meals.


The Flex Omelette I had on the Eagle last time I rode was probably the Worst Meal I've ever had on a Passenger Train!

I agree the ones on Acela FC were Much Better!


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## Sidney

Bob Dylan said:


> The Flex Omelette I had on the Eagle last time I rode was probably the Worst Meal I've ever had on a Passenger Train!
> 
> I agree the ones on Acela FC were Much Better!


The TE was ranked dead last in a Trains Magazine assessment of all LD trains last November. The absence of a sightseer car on a 32 hour trip and the continued flex dining is inexcusable.


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## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The reason is there is only 1 Overworked LSA for the 32+ Hour Trip that has to Serve the Meals ( Flex)to the Sleeping Cars passengers, run the Cafe for the 2 Coaches, and since there is no Transdorm on the Eagle now,the Crew uses the CCC as their Lounge and Work Area, hence there's no where to hang out except in your Room or your Coach Seat!


But the Capitol Limited only has one overworked LSA (assisted by the sleeping car attendants) who did the meals for the sleepers and ran the cafe for the coach passengers, and there's no transdorm on the Cap either, so the crew has to use the CCC for their lounge and work area, yet still they let us hang out there. Yeah, the total trip on the Capitol is faster (18 hours vs. 32+ hrs), but that shouldn't make any difference.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> But the Capitol Limited only has one overworked LSA (assisted by the sleeping car attendants) who did the meals for the sleepers and ran the cafe for the coach passengers, and there's no transdorm on the Cap either, so the crew has to use the CCC for their lounge and work area, yet still they let us hang out there. Yeah, the total trip on the Capitol is faster (18 hours vs. 32+ hrs), but that shouldn't make any difference.


As always, it's Amtrak so you pay you're Fare and you never know what you'll find when you board!

Look what they did to my Train Ma!


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## Night Ranger

Bob Dylan said:


> As always, it's Amtrak so you pay you're Fare and you never know what you'll find when you board!
> 
> Look what they did to my Train Ma!


To paraphrase Forrest Gump, "Riding Amtrak is like a box of cocolates. You never know what you are going to get." And that's all I'll say about that.


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## johnmiller

CameraObscura76 said:


> This was my breakfast yesterday morning…rubbery French toast with very undercooked bacon. I only took a couple of bites and just ended up throwing it away. I can’t believe Amtrak deems this acceptable for first class service. View attachment 26905



The Amtrak Race to the Bottom continues...


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## pennyk

MARC Rider said:


> If the flex dining omelet is the same as what they served us in Acela First Class during the Covid downgrade, that's actually sort of edible. What was inedible was the kosher omelet, provided by a different catering service than the one that supplies the flex meals.


I am pretty picky and I find the flex omelet edible.


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## lordsigma

They actually changed the flex omlette with the most recent menu refresh where they added the french toast. The previous one with the spinach was the same served on the Acela. Acela has of course since moved back to its pre pandemic food program. I think I heard somewhere Amtrak has a new vendor that is supplying the Acela food and this vendor may also be providing some product for the western traditional dining but I'm not 100% sure about that - could be hearsay. I will note the "lobster crab cake" I had on Acela seemed very similar to the dinner appetizer I had on the Chief with the same name - both very good I will add though I think the portion was a bit bigger on Acela as it was the entire meal.


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## lordsigma

Furthermore I think the end result of the required food and beverage improvement process will be possibly taking at least some concepts they are doing out west elsewhere - though I am hesitant to say I see a day where chefs return to every train - especially noting that some of the trains did not have full traditional dining even well before the Anderson era flexible dining. Of the 8 flex routes - only half of those - the Capitol Limited being the first, followed by Silver Meteor, Crescent, and Texas Eagle - lost full service dining with chef prepared meals as a result of flexible dining. The other half lost it well before flex and they used the flex approach to standardize things on those trains as well though they were already operating with less food service crew members and a "re-heated" approach though obviously with differences or the case of the Star with just a cafe car. I could see chefs return to a couple additional routes, but I think others would see a modified pre-cooked re-heated offering possibly with a better presentation. And in reality - you would satisfy the vast majority of passengers on the one night routes with such an approach. As we all know from international airlines you can have perfectly good pre-prepared food and I personally don't find flex as bad as many - though the effort in properly reheating and improving the presentation could clearly be better. The trains out west are a different story and the "experience" factor is a critical component of those trains thus you need that old fashioned dining car experience. Auto Train is in a world of its own - really Amtrak's sole for-profit route - and the shear number of passengers you have to feed.....flex dining just wouldnt cut it.


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## enviro5609

We were in the Texas Eagle for the holidays and were absolutely allowed to hang out in the CCC outside of mealtimes as sleeper passengers.


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## Zack

enviro5609 said:


> We were in the Texas Eagle for the holidays and were absolutely allowed to hang out in the CCC outside of mealtimes as sleeper passengers.


I rode the TE a few weeks ago and the CCC was closed unless you were eating a meal. They didn't make any announcement that it was closed and there were no signs but I was told to go back to my room when I tried to sit there to see St. Louis.


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## toddinde

I will never, ever understand why this is so hard. I’ve ridden Amtrak since it’s inception. I’ve crossed Canada. I’ve ridden trains all over Europe. I would prefer traditional dining be restored to all long distance trains. However, it seems to me that the dining cars on the German Railways (Deutsche Bahn) have a decent model for Amtrak, at least on the one night and long day trains that would be an overall, vast improvement. On one side of the car is a cafe similar to Amtrak with carry out items and a small lounge. In the middle is a kitchen, and on the longer end of the car are tables. Waitstaff serve the tables. You can get anything from a full meal to sandwich’s, snacks and drinks. The meals are well prepared, but obviously along the lines of flexible dining, but of very good quality. I think this product would be ideal because it could serve all passengers efficiently. It also would be a model that could be used on the long day trains like the Palmetto, Maple Leaf, etc. Again, the food service thing isn’t hard if you find the right model.


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## toddinde

I will never, ever understand why this is so hard. I’ve ridden Amtrak since it’s inception. I’ve crossed Canada. I’ve ridden trains all over Europe. It seems to me that the dining cars on the German Railways (Deutsche Bahn)


me_little_me said:


> Do you mean you never saw coach passengers using the diner BEFORE flex? Not sure if that is correct. I have seen many eating before flex and I was one of the coach people eating in the diner on a trip out of Atlanta.


I’ve traveled the Amtrak system since Amtrak was created, both coach and sleeper. I’m not sure I have ever eaten in the diner when there weren’t coach passengers eating. It’s obvious when someone at your table had to pay, or I had to pay when I was traveling coach. Coach passengers definitely ate in the diner. If it’s an inconvenience to Amtrak; tough. Coach passengers are customers too, and deserve a decent experience.


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## toddinde

Zack said:


> I rode the TE a few weeks ago and the CCC was closed unless you were eating a meal. They didn't make any announcement that it was closed and there were no signs but I was told to go back to my room when I tried to sit there to see St. Louis.


That is so ridiculous and so uncalled for. Please let Amtrak management know.


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## Bob Dylan

toddinde said:


> That is so ridiculous and so uncalled for. Please let Amtrak management know.


Basically they don't care since none of the Suits ride Trains, so Crews get to "do it their way", screw the passengers!


----------



## toddinde

lordsigma said:


> Furthermore I think the end result of the required food and beverage improvement process will be possibly taking at least some concepts they are doing out west elsewhere - though I am hesitant to say I see a day where chefs return to every train - especially noting that some of the trains did not have full traditional dining even well before the Anderson era flexible dining. Of the 8 flex routes - only half of those - the Capitol Limited being the first, followed by Silver Meteor, Crescent, and Texas Eagle - lost full service dining with chef prepared meals as a result of flexible dining. The other half lost it well before flex and they used the flex approach to standardize things on those trains as well though they were already operating with less food service crew members and a "re-heated" approach though obviously with differences or the case of the Star with just a cafe car. I could see chefs return to a couple additional routes, but I think others would see a modified pre-cooked re-heated offering possibly with a better presentation. And in reality - you would satisfy the vast majority of passengers on the one night routes with such an approach. As we all know from international airlines you can have perfectly good pre-prepared food and I personally don't find flex as bad as many - though the effort in properly reheating and improving the presentation could clearly be better. The trains out west are a different story and the "experience" factor is a critical component of those trains thus you need that old fashioned dining car experience. Auto Train is in a world of its own - really Amtrak's sole for-profit route - and the shear number of passengers you have to feed.....flex dining just wouldnt cut it.


I am actually with you. My experience with the flex meal was really positive on the Cardinal. I’ve had amazing at seat meals on VIA in the corridor. People don’t realize it, but the railroads started using prepared meals. There was a test done at C&O/B&O, I think Paul Reisteup might have been involved. Management was served pre prepared meals without their knowing in a supposed test of dining car recipes. They were shocked to learn they were pre prepared. The Rock Island did the same in in the ‘50s or early ‘60s. I also remember when Amtrak put diners on the Milwaukee to St Louis and Chicago to Minneapolis trains in the ‘70s, and how nice it was to get a full meal on those longer day runs. I think a sit down product of high quality, even if it’s pre prepared, would be a winner on the overnight east coast trains, and expanded to those longer day runs. Have expanded hours in the diner so passengers could come anytime. Offer carryouts, or at seat/room deliveries, for those who don’t want to come to the diner. We should be open to new paradigms. We can even have a fresh flower on the table to go with the good food and fine scenery.


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## toddinde

Bob Dylan said:


> Basically they don't care since none of the Suits ride Trains, so Crews get to "do it their way", screw the passengers!


Well, that’s true. Then we know what had to happen; a new board and new management.


----------



## crescent2

Cal said:


> Flex, microwave food. Many think it's terrible, most think a much better product should be given, and everyone thinks traditional dining is better. And IIRC the Crescent is only running with a cafe at the moment.
> 
> 
> I would say go eastbound, if the train is late you still get to see Glacier in the daylight. Currently they have traditional dining, the diner is only open to sleeping car passengers -- coach passengers must get food from the cafe or bring their own.




Thank you so much!
I hope we can make this trip work. I'll have more questions in the meantime, I'm sure.

It's a shame about the Crescent, and the other LD trains that have no full dining service. Eating in the dining car was such a great part of the experience. The food was good and you get to meet and talk with other travelers. And to spend the $$$$ for all those fancy kitchens and then not use them?? Crazy, no, make that dumb.

It seems to me that Amtrak management WANTS most of the LD trains to lose ridership and fail. Sad.


----------



## Rasputin

crescent2 said:


> Also, a friend and I would like to plan a short trip on the Empire Builder for possibly later this year. We want to ride a segment that goes through Glacier NP, not sure whether east- or west-bound, or how long. What's the current dining situation on the EB? It's one of the LD trains I've never taken yet. Thanks!


As others have said, eastbound from Whitefish will be in the daylight almost all year round.

For a good part of the year, the westbound trip will be dark when the train reaches Glacier even if on time. One May a few years ago our westbound train was three hours late and reached East Glacier (Glacier Park station) right as it got dark. Aside from a couple mountains in the sunset, we saw nothing of the Park. However the following May our train was on time and there was good daylight right through to West Glacier and beyond.

That being said please keep in mind that daylight in the summer lasts until quite late and a westbound trip at that time can be incredibly beautiful and in my opinion preferable to an eastbound trip. 

It is a nice trip along the Park and you are wise to be thinking of taking it.


----------



## finleyd

Any updated if Traditional Dining is coming back to the Silver Service this year?


----------



## Sidney

finleyd said:


> Any updated if Traditional Dining is coming back to the Silver Service this year?


No official word. Hopefully sometime this year. Traditional dining would be most welcome on the Star and Meteor.


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## Brian Battuello

An overnight Amtrak trip in a room is an unpredictable mix of cruise ship and camping.


----------



## Sidney

Brian Battuello said:


> An overnight Amtrak trip in a room is an unpredictable mix of cruise ship and camping.


Perfect description!


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## b243923

I am taking the Auto Train this Thursday and was wondering do the sleeper passengers eat in their rooms or is the dinning car open?


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## Zack

The Auto Train has traditional dining, so the dining car is open but you have the option of having it delivered to your room.


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## b243923

Is this current information or what is traditional.


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## Zack

b243923 said:


> Is this current information or what is traditional.


It's current information. "Traditional Dining" is the name for the full sit-down meals that are served on certain long-distance trains.


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## b243923

I am sitting on the Auto Train right now and waiting to leave Lorton for Sanford shortly.

After boarding the train the sleeper attendant took our orders for dinner and will bring the meal to us in our accommodations. There is no eating dinner in the dining car.

They said breakfast is grab and go and you can either bring the food back to your accommodations or eat in the lounge.

This is the latest information about eating dinner on the Auto Train


----------



## me_little_me

b243923 said:


> I am sitting on the Auto Train right now and waiting to leave Lorton for Sanford shortly.
> 
> After boarding the train the sleeper attendant took our orders for dinner and will bring the meal to us in our accommodations. There is no eating dinner in the dining car.
> 
> They said breakfast is grab and go and you can either bring the food back to your accommodations or eat in the lounge.
> 
> This is the latest information about eating dinner on the Auto Train


Is that just your train or will it change on tomorrow's train because that's what the crew decided was the "standard"? Our Cardinal westbound trip had the same dinner rule but on the outbound trip, we could eat in the "diner". There are no standards on Amtrak because the "Amtrak Standards Manual" appear to be only a suggestion based on my experiences.


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## GAT

I'll be riding the Cardinal eastbound in mid-April. Maybe things will have settled down by then (Ha!)


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## ssbun

b243923 said:


> I am sitting on the Auto Train right now and waiting to leave Lorton for Sanford shortly.
> 
> After boarding the train the sleeper attendant took our orders for dinner and will bring the meal to us in our accommodations. There is no eating dinner in the dining car.
> 
> They said breakfast is grab and go and you can either bring the food back to your accommodations or eat in the lounge.
> 
> This is the latest information about eating dinner on the Auto Train


Every day, dining options may be different. Amtrak in general has been having difficulties with staffing issues. Maybe the AT didn't have enough staff for the dining car. If that was the case, I feel sorry for the SCA's. JMHO


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## b243923

ssbun said:


> Every day, dining options may be different. Amtrak in general has been having difficulties with staffing issues. Maybe the AT didn't have enough staff for the dining car. If that was the case, I feel sorry for the SCA's. JMHO


Look at all the tips they should have made from the passengers. I know I tipped and always did in the dining car


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## Maze

How about for the passengers, they are paying first class prices and getting substandard service. The railroads used this tactic to drive away passengers in the 60s. Make the service bad enough and people will find another way to travel. Soon you can stop service.


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## b243923

Maze said:


> How about for the passengers, they are paying first class prices and getting substandard service. The railroads used this tactic to drive away passengers in the 60s. Make the service bad enough and people will find another way to travel. Soon you can stop service.


I took it as a good thing not to have to sit in the dining car with total strangers and wonder who might infect me. Sitting in the waiting area at Lorton and having them announce "remove all your belongings off the seats as we have a full train and need the seating" bothered me to no end. I am not paranoid but do not take chances when it can be avoided.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

If only they would serve first class Acela meals on one night trains in the diner. This four year quagmire would be done once and for all. Everyone would win management would get the labor savings they claim they need and passengers would get decent, enjoyable enough food. The definition of compromise. The Florida trains could have this next week if management wanted, the caterers are already in place on the route. Unfortunately I fear the truth is stated below management has no desire to increase ridership. This is too easy a fix to ignore. 




Maze said:


> How about for the passengers, they are paying first class prices and getting substandard service. The railroads used this tactic to drive away passengers in the 60s. Make the service bad enough and people will find another way to travel. Soon you can stop service.


----------



## TheCrescent

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If only they would serve first class Acela meals on one night trains in the diner. This four year quagmire would be done once and for all. Everyone would win management would get the labor savings they claim they need and passengers would get decent, enjoyable enough food. The definition of compromise. The Florida trains could have this next week if management wanted, the caterers are already in place on the route. Unfortunately I fear the truth is stated below management has no desire to increase ridership. This is too easy a fix to ignore.



I agree with you 1,000%. Amtrak should just take the full Acela food and beverage offerings and offer them to sleeping car passengers on Eastern LD trains. The mixed drinks and other adult beverages that the Acela has are great, too.

I am told that this is not possible because the catering facilities for the Acela might differ from the catering facilities for LD trains, but nearly all contracts have termination dates so Amtrak should just shift to the Acela suppliers at some point.

I don't understand why Amtrak has so many different types of business class, so many different types of first class, etc.--surely it would be easier to have a consistent business class and a consistent first class, across the system (or at least a more consistent offering than currently).


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Agreed it doesn’t add up. Are Acela trains catered in NY? The Silver trains start in NY. It just seems like too easy a fix that in 4 years no one has tried. The same with the Capital in DC. Where are Acela meals prepared, at a airport facility and trucked to station?

Initially we saw info that flex dining meals cost Amtrak $35-40 a meal.

I haven’t seen the list that shows what airlines spend on first class meals per airline, per meal in a long time, with CoVid services the numbers would be skewed, suffice to say what Amtrak is serving now isn’t worth whatever they are paying for it and I hope it’s not $40 a meal.


----------



## ssbun

b243923 said:


> Look at all the tips they should have made from the passengers. I know I tipped and always did in the dining car


We always have our dinner brought to us. I have in issue with the stairs and sleep on the lower level. I always tip our SCA more due to the fact he/she has to deliver our food.


----------



## TheCrescent

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Agreed it doesn’t add up. Are Acela trains catered in NY? The Silver trains start in NY. It just seems like too easy a fix that in 4 years no one has tried. The same with the Capital in DC. Where are Acela meals prepared, at a airport facility and trucked to station?
> 
> Initially we saw info that flex dining meals cost Amtrak $35-40 a meal.
> 
> I haven’t seen the list that shows what airlines spend on first class meals per airline, per meal in a long time, with CoVid services the numbers would be skewed, suffice to say what Amtrak is serving now isn’t worth whatever they are paying for it and I hope it’s not $40 a meal.



Maybe Amtrak had to pay some up-front costs for its suppliers to get geared up to provide Flexible Dining, but Amtrak could have saved money by just having an employee stop by Walmart on the way to the train station and get some frozen dinners there for the train.

I saw somewhere that Acela catering is in Queens, NY...near where Eastern LD trains originate.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> As will being a Prisoner in your Room, since there is no Sightseer Lounge on the Eagle, and you won't be allowed to hang out in the CCC ( Combo Diner and Cafe)


I had the same experience when on the Eagle and then again on the Cardinal where the crew was complaining that every day felt like Monday. Bad attitudes and minimal resources make for a poor experience. Better funding and better management would put more smiles on more faces!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


>


I so agree with you Jim... so where is management hiding???


----------



## Sidney

b243923 said:


> I took it as a good thing not to have to sit in the dining car with total strangers and wonder who might infect me. Sitting in the waiting area at Lorton and having them announce "remove all your belongings off the seats as we have a full train and need the seating" bothered me to no end. I am not paranoid but do not take chances when it can be avoided.


Not dining


20th Century Rider said:


> I had the same experience when on the Eagle and then again on the Cardinal where the crew was complaining that every day felt like Monday. Bad attitudes and minimal resources make for a poor experience. Better funding and better management would put more smiles on more faces!


I was on the Crescent in December with the surliest sleeping car attendant I ever had. He grumbled when I asked him to put the bed down. I thanked him and he muttered. He never even put the seat up the next day. I dreaded seeing him. No tip.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Not dining
> I was on the Crescent in December with the surliest sleeping car attendant I ever had. He grumbled when I asked him to put the bed down. I thanked him and he muttered. He never even put the seat up the next day. I dreaded seeing him. No tip.


Wow! Absolutely no tip for service like that! What is with this kind of attitude in a passenger service job???


----------



## TheCrescent

On one Eastern long distance train recently, with Flexible Dining, the menus were just printouts of the menu from the Amtrak website, on regular 8 1/2”x11” copier paper.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> On one Eastern long distance train recently, with Flexible Dining, the menus were just printouts of the menu from the Amtrak website, on regular 8 1/2”x11” copier paper.


On a recent EB trip there was a printout of the EB schedule on ditto paper copied off the schedules they used to place in the rooms... and still mostly the same. This was courtesy of an exceptional SCA who made sure water bottles were replenished and etc. Served my meals on a large tray... with a smile! I gave this guy a very generous tip for his exceptional service


----------



## niemi24s

TheCrescent said:


> On one Eastern long distance train recently, with Flexible Dining, the menus were just printouts of the menu from the Amtrak website, on regular 8 1/2”x11” copier paper.


Those disposable menus are also standard in lots of restaurants as it avoids the need to disinfect them for Covid after each use.


----------



## TheCrescent

niemi24s said:


> Those disposable menus are also standard in lots of restaurants as it avoids the need to disinfect them for Covid after each use.


Sure but usually they’re at least professionally printed on nice paper.


----------



## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> Sure but usually they’re at least professionally printed on nice paper.


Only in restaurants that serve decent food. and flex dining does NOT qualify as decent in any manner, shape or form IMHO. Cheap paper menus are perfect for cheap paper-tasting "food".


----------



## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> I agree with you 1,000%. Amtrak should just take the full Acela food and beverage offerings and offer them to sleeping car passengers on Eastern LD trains. The mixed drinks and other adult beverages that the Acela has are great, too.
> 
> I am told that this is not possible because the catering facilities for the Acela might differ from the catering facilities for LD trains, but nearly all contracts have termination dates so Amtrak should just shift to the Acela suppliers at some point.
> 
> I don't understand why Amtrak has so many different types of business class, so many different types of first class, etc.--surely it would be easier to have a consistent business class and a consistent first class, across the system (or at least a more consistent offering than currently).


Nothing in Amtrak is consistent except for their lack of consistency.


----------



## pennyk

I am requesting one or more AU members to write a concise summary of current Amtrak Dining (including flex dining and traditional dining but not Auto Train) using facts without too many personal opinions. Please assume the reader is a new Amtrak rider who does not feel like reading through 100+ pages in this thread. Thank you.


----------



## TheCrescent

pennyk said:


> I am requesting one or more AU members to write a concise summary of current Amtrak Dining (including flex dining and traditional dining but not Auto Train) using facts without too many personal opinions. Please assume the reader is a new Amtrak rider who does not feel like reading through 100+ pages in this thread. Thank you.


Flexible dining is a rotating menu of pre-prepared meals that are reheated on board and brought to you in your room (or perhaps served in the dining car if there is one) in a white plastic bag, and served on plastic plates in a cardboard tray. Sometimes the items are still wrapped in plastic with the labels still on them.

Desserts are brownies and blondies, always still wrapped in plastic and sometimes served warm.

Some of them are fine to good (such as the salmon), but the portion sizes are relatively small.

For what Flexible Dining is NOT, and what Amtrak does NOT offer, please watch this, starting at about 4:50:


----------



## lordsigma

Cafe service: Cafe service is available on all trains which consists of snack food, some hot choices such as a cheeseburger, personal pizza, and hot dog, and on some trains also fresh sandwiches. Starbucks coffee, Coke branded soft drinks, and alcoholic beverages are also available for purchase. Business passengers receive complementary soft drinks. 


Acela: First class passengers receive at seat meals and free beverages both soft and alcoholic throughout the trip. Passengers going thru New York Can get two meals one on each side of New York. The meals are hot and similar to first class meals on airlines. There are alternative cold options such as a cheese plate.

Traditional dining: Is offered on the California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, and Sunset Limited for sleeping car passengers - business class passengers on the Coast Starlight may also purchase these meal packages in the dining car. Consists of chef prepared meals for breakfast lunch and dinner and includes metal flatware, real glassware, flowers on the table, and white tablecloths for dinner and in the future real China. Breakfast choices include an omelette, and scrambled eggs - both prepared from scratch on board, and a railroad French toast. Lunch includes a cheeseburger, artisan grilled cheese, and chili option and includes a complimentary dessert. Dinner is three course - includes a complimentary alcoholic beverage, a dinner roll, a choice from three appetizers, a chef prepared entree, and dessert. Entrees include steak, chicken, pesto tortellini (with an optional chicken), and salmon. Complimentary soft drinks and coffee are also provided throughout the trip. A traditional dining dinner is also offered on the auto train - with the same entrees, a complimentary alcoholic beverage, a salad, and a dinner roll. The Auto Train also serves the same desserts with the addition of ice cream.

Flexible dining: Served on all long distance trains for sleeping car passengers except those listed above that serve traditional meals. Consists of pre-prepared ready to serve re-heated meals. Lunch/dinner Meals include a small salad, a dinner roll, a choice from five entree choices and a brownie or blonde for dessert. Dinner includes a complimentary alcoholic beverage. Complimentary beverages are offered throughout the trip. Breakfast includes a choice from a pre prepared omelette and French toast choice or a continental breakfast (which includes a hot breakfast sandwich.) Three flexible dining entrees are also available for purchase in the coach cross country cafe car on the auto train. Menu refreshes about twice a year.


----------



## Rasputin

me_little_me said:


> Nothing in Amtrak is consistent except for their lack of consistency.


No question that Amtrak takes Thoreau to the extreme.


----------



## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> Sure but usually they’re at least professionally printed on nice paper.


Oh yeah?  I've seen at lot worse than what was described here at real restaurants. And every trip I've taken during the flex meal era has had properly printed menus that make the flex food appear more attractive than it actually is.


----------



## joelkfla

TheCrescent said:


> On one Eastern long distance train recently, with Flexible Dining, the menus were just printouts of the menu from the Amtrak website, on regular 8 1/2”x11” copier paper.


At least you got one. On the northbound leg of my trip in October, the SCA just gave me a xeroxed copy to look at while she stood there and waited for me to choose my dinner, and then took it back.


----------



## Rambling Robert

I have way more to say - maybe later.

Last week I took the DownEaster from Woburn to Rockland ME, I mean Brunswick Maine.

ha ha,

The food was very good. Despite what the online agent/csr said the DownEaster is still on it’s old menu. For one, the new menu features veggie Lasagna - mmmm -

An Amtrak LSA was in the Cafe on both trips. (2/1/22 and 2/2/22) In October 2020 the cafe was closed to passengers and NexDine staff was contracted to take cafe orders at your seat..... nice.

BTW - the $20 roundtrip SALE on the DownEaster. I’ll prolly go again soon - hey for twenty bucks —

the new menu features more breakfast items but I had the “old” egg and sausage (or bacon) breakfast sandwich. Tasty and filling

On the return I had bean/beef.burritos (2) $12 - they needed more chipped beef - but the killer Eli Root-beer bottled in Portland and a double killer Whoopie Pie baked in Skowhegan


----------



## niemi24s

Do they have Moxie on the DownEaster?


----------



## lordsigma

Actually there are two sandwich offerings on long distance trains. How often they are actually available I do not know.



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1021.pdf


----------



## Joe from PA

Last March was our first trip on the Silver Meteor that had the new dining. I had no idea what to expect (like, are we heating our own microwave meals?). It was nice that someone was waiting on our table. The food was OK, some choices better than others. The dining car was a nice change from our roomettes. Because of the Covid, we missed being seated with, and chatting with "complete strangers"  . For us, this is one reason we go by train. Hopefully, the dining car will be open for our trip next month because we do NOT want to eat in our roomettes.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> Actually there are two sandwich offerings on long distance trains. How often they are actually available I do not know.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1021.pdf


When you said "fresh", you didn't mean actually fresh-made, did you?


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> When you said "fresh", you didn't mean actually fresh-made, did you?


By fresh I mean - I don’t believe they are frozen sandwiches. On the regionals they claim “made fresh daily” - on LD trains you obviously can’t guarantee that. If I ever have one on the “national cafe car” I’ll try to figure out when they are made.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I’ve posted these before but since it was asked to provide a description of the various meals, here are photos of the flex dining entrees. 

I would compare them to low-quality TV dinners.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve posted these before but since it was asked to provide a description of the various meals, here are photos of the flex dining entrees.
> 
> I would compare them to low-quality TV dinners.


That first one looks like shrimp. Wasn't that dropped in favor of the salmon?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> That first one looks like shrimp. Wasn't that dropped in favor of the salmon?



Possibly. I feel like the photos give a good example of the quality, portion size, and presentation of the flex dining.


----------



## Rambling Robert

niemi24s said:


> Do they have Moxie on the DownEaster?


 
IDK.

Next trip on the DownEaster I’ll ask the LSA. My Mom enjoyed Moxie as a kid in the 1930s. I read the formulation has changed and now has high fructose syrup to cut the well known bitter sweet flavor. Moxie was originally bottled in Lowell Mass but has roots in Maine. Coca Cola bought Moxie in 2018.

Speaking of roots the original Moxie and Roof-beer share the same root extract as an ingredient.. Today I have no idea what root beer has in it compared to the original tastes that I remember as a kid in the 1950s.

BTW - Eli’s or actually Capt’n Eli’s” is made by Shipyard Brewing.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> By fresh I mean - I don’t believe they are frozen sandwiches. On the regionals they claim “made fresh daily” - on LD trains you obviously can’t guarantee that. If I ever have one on the “national cafe car” I’ll try to figure out when they are made.


They say daily but are they made the same day as they are sold or does it mean they made them fresh yesterday and they are selling them today and they are making them today for tomorrow's train? 
They do not load food on most LD trains after the departure station as far as I know, so the wrap and sandwich are likely NOT fresh after the first day. Anyone know something I don't? Note, they do NOT say "fresh" on the menu.


----------



## Rambling Robert

I’m hoping the pandemic is soon behind us. I’m planning a grand tour USA/Canada/Mexico or a trip to Europe by train.

I’ll wait for the FOOD issues to settle down because that is the former BIG SELL for Amtrak... and if it wants passengers its

I’d like to travel ViaRail northeast and northwest of the border with Canada and just south of the border to Baja California, Mexico. 300 - 400 hours mostly by rail. Some bus, and a final air hop Halifax to Portland ME DownEaster. A mix of RailPass, Coach and sleeper on Amtrak.

in Europe a europass is all I’ll need. But I’d like to take the train in Norway to the Arctic Cirble.

But I’m hoping Amtrak wants me as a passenger.


----------



## neroden

Rambling Robert said:


> I have way more to say - maybe later.
> 
> Last week I took the DownEaster from Woburn to Rockland ME, I mean Brunswick Maine.
> 
> ha ha,
> 
> The food was very good. Despite what the online agent/csr said the DownEaster is still on it’s old menu.



The state of Maine demanded their own food for the Downeaster; it has a completely different menu from the entire rest of Amtrak, and the state gets what it pays for. 

Downeaster food is VERY GOOD and I would be overjoyed if every Amtrak cafe car had the Downeaster food


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is the menu for the Downeaster Cafe, Moxie is not listed.

The cafe menu, like all aspects of the Downeaster is governed by the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority. The NERPA funds the entire operation, sets the schedules, fares, cafe menu, and policies regarding the operation.

Amtrak is the contracted operator, no more, and no less.



https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user14/2021_Fall_Menu.png



Ken


----------



## Rambling Robert

Maverickstation said:


> Here is the menu for the Downeaster Cafe, Moxie is not listed.
> 
> The cafe menu, like all aspects of the Downeaster is governed by the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority. The NERPA funds the entire operation, sets the schedules, fares, cafe menu, and policies regarding the operation.
> 
> Amtrak is the contracted operator, no more, and no less.
> 
> 
> 
> https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user14/2021_Fall_Menu.png
> 
> 
> 
> Ken



The same Orange menu was at the cafe on my DownEaster trip last week. When I requested online I was told the blue menu... the one with veggie lasagna.

to me it really didn’t matter. I like the orange and the blue menus ....

Here’s the blue DownEaster FUTURE MENU;
https://amtrakdowneaster.com/themes/contrib/client_theme/images/cafe/downeaster-cafe-menu.pdf

=================================•

More Amtrak food news;
If you were a passenger on the maiden trip of the DownEaster on December16, 2001 there’s a good chance that you’d be offered a free Maine potato.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> The state of Maine demanded their own food for the Downeaster; it has a completely different menu from the entire rest of Amtrak, and the state gets what it pays for.



Other state-supported trains have unique menus as well. Amtrak California used to have really good burritos. Amtrak Cascades used to have a second staff member who served a few “cooked on board” items like oatmeal for breakfast, soup for lunch / dinner. They also featured some fancier entrees and local drinks. 

And of course the Piedmont trains give complimentary bottled water and coffee to all passengers and offer vending machines for snacks. That works well for the shorter trip lengths.


----------



## jis

I recall the Clam Chowder Soup served on the Cascades was heavenly, quite unlike anything served anywhere else on Amtrak or state operated service back then.


----------



## Dakota 400

Rambling Robert said:


> Here’s the blue DownEaster FUTURE MENU;



That's a good sounding menu! "Various chowders" intrigues me. Other than Clam, what might they offer?


----------



## joelkfla

Dakota 400 said:


> That's a good sounding menu! "Various chowders" intrigues me. Other than Clam, what might they offer?


Other chowders I've encountered include fish, lobster, corn & crab.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> That first one looks like shrimp. Wasn't that dropped in favor of the salmon?



That is correct - it is a salmon and before that a Cod. 

The flex meal photos shown are not the offerings as the menu was refreshed in the fall - but do of course reflect the general presentation which hasn’t changed.


----------



## fillyjonk

I had the cod once, it wasn't bad at all.


----------



## Rambling Robert

joelkfla said:


> Other chowders I've encountered include fish, lobster, corn & crab.



of my favorites is a red chowder (fish, usually haddock very spiced red chowder, potatoes) ALSO the cllasssic Manhattan Clam Chowder - very spicey, like vegetable soup - found at Jones Beach NY concessions.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Rambling Robert said:


> of my favorites is a red chowder (fish, usually haddock very spiced red chowder, potatoes) ALSO the cllasssic Manhattan Clam Chowder - very spicey, like vegetable soup - found at Jones Beach NY concessions.


Sounds good, although talking about Manhattan clam chowder up here in New England is considered heresy . I believe at one time the Downeaster had clam chowder (the proper kind) on its menu. I'll have to check and see the next time I take it which should be in March.


----------



## daybeers

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Sounds good, although talking about Manhattan clam chowder up here in New England is considered heresy . I believe at one time the Downeaster had clam chowder (the proper kind) on its menu. I'll have to check and see the next time I take it which should be in March.


Oo cool! It's not listed on the current menu on the Downeaster website. I'll report in a couple weeks when I take it for the first time.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Booking the $20 roundtrip on the DownEaster expires 2/25/22.

I am planning a DownEaster trip by 2/28 and will ask the LSA if anything was added to the Orange menu. It will be just a day trip to Portland. I’ll prolly have breakfast and dinner onboard.

withholding blizzards the $4 parking it’s Haverhill is best for me.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Here’s the bean beef burrito. Not so beefy.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Rambling Robert said:


> Here’s the bean beef burrito. Not so beefy.
> View attachment 27095


Looks like Taco Bell!


----------



## fdaley

neroden said:


> The state of Maine demanded their own food for the Downeaster; it has a completely different menu from the entire rest of Amtrak, and the state gets what it pays for.
> 
> Downeaster food is VERY GOOD and I would be overjoyed if every Amtrak cafe car had the Downeaster food



Regarding the Downeaster, there have been a series of contractors providing the food service over the years, some better than others, but they've all put more emphasis on regional fare. And they've all had a really good service culture. In terms of the menu, some have offered basically sandwiches and snacks, and others have offered hot breakfast and lunch entrees that have been quite good. For trips that involve the Downeaster as well as corridor trains or the Lake Shore Limited, which would include many of my family's trips to Maine, having a different menu on the Downeaster is really welcome just for variety's sake.


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> Other state-supported trains have unique menus as well. Amtrak California used to have really good burritos. Amtrak Cascades used to have a second staff member who served a few “cooked on board” items like oatmeal for breakfast, soup for lunch / dinner. They also featured some fancier entrees and local drinks.
> 
> And of course the Piedmont trains give complimentary bottled water and coffee to all passengers and offer vending machines for snacks. That works well for the shorter trip lengths.



I remember on a couple of morning runs on the Cascades having some really great cinnamon rolls that were produced by a Seattle-area bakery. The coffee was superior too.


----------



## daybeers

@Rambling Robert I was thinking of getting one of those whoopie pies, are they good?


----------



## Rambling Robert

daybeers said:


> @Rambling Robert I was thinking of getting one of those whoopie pies, are they good?



The Steve’s Whoopi Pies are excellent. Fair price. Normally I don’t choose stuff with peanut butter but PB one is just like the plain whipped cream with light peanut flavor.

the price of the burrito is only $3.25 and the tortilla is very good and for the price the amount of filling was fine. If I’m near a Taco Bell I’ll try it - but for the price of two they are thinking of cheap eats for kiddies and not what I get it Tucson.


----------



## Rambling Robert

The NexDine website is open for suggestions
Here are some I’ll submit:

1. when is the blue menu starting?
.2. What routes are serviced other than DownEaster?
3. Moxie?
4. Beefier burrito?
5.LSA Wait staff?(like when cafe closed to public?
6. Wine labels?

ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS???









Dining & Hospitality Service Management | Nexdine Hospitality


NEXDINE Hospitality combines exceptional talent, and technology to revolutionize dining & hospitality management. Contact Us.




nexdine.com





It looks like a good company.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Rambling Robert said:


> The NexDine website is open for suggestions
> Here are some I’ll submit:
> 
> 1. when is the blue menu starting?
> .2. What routes are serviced other than DownEaster?
> 3. Moxie?
> 4. Beefier burrito?
> 5.LSA Wait staff?(like when cafe closed to public?
> 6. Wine labels?
> 
> ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dining & Hospitality Service Management | Nexdine Hospitality
> 
> 
> NEXDINE Hospitality combines exceptional talent, and technology to revolutionize dining & hospitality management. Contact Us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nexdine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like a good company.


Yes NexDine seems decent. We had them as the caterer for the cafeteria in the office park back when I was working, in Bedford MA.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> Here’s the bean beef burrito. Not so beefy.
> View attachment 27095


A burrito isn't exactly "regional fare" for a train running between Boston and Maine.


----------



## Rambling Robert

MARC Rider said:


> A burrito isn't exactly "regional fare" for a train running between Boston and Maine.



For about four times the price of a DownEaster Burrito (made in Massachusetts FTW) you can buy a beefier Beantown Burrito on Longwood Ave - also made in Massachusetts.

Beantown Burrito


----------



## Mailliw

I think if states are supporting food service on their routes they should have the same freedom to arrange catering NNEPRA does.


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> I think if states are supporting food service on their routes they should have the same freedom to arrange catering NNEPRA does.


I believe there is no restriction on striking whatever food service contract they like and pay for it. It is another matter what they actually do when push comes to shove.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> For about four times the price of a DownEaster Burrito (made in Massachusetts FTW) you can buy a beefier Beantown Burrito on Longwood Ave - also made in Massachusetts.
> 
> Beantown Burrito


I guess those Yankees are allowed to sell burritos; I'd like to see whether they sell lobster rolls in LA or on the Pacific Surfliner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mailliw said:


> I think if states are supporting food service on their routes they should have the same freedom to arrange catering NNEPRA does.



I think they do. The Piedmont trains offer free bottled water and coffee for all passengers and then vending machines for soft drinks and snacks. 

Other trains have local items available (Cascades, California, etc.) 

I think the Michigan trains have a few Michigan items as well... I remember there being a local brand of potato chips as well as Lays available on the Wolverine.


----------



## Northwestern

fdaley said:


> And yes, RPA reported a few months back that the Mica rule was deleted, so there is no longer any statutory requirement that Amtrak's food service cover its own costs. Which means dining service should go back to what it has always been: an amenity that helps to attract and retain riders.


******************************
I quite agree. I think the problem with Amtrak is that they are unreasonably oriented toward the idea that excessive cost cutting is the way to financial success. I'm not against reasonable cost cutting, but not to the bone. However, I think the main problem is that Amtrak doesn't seem to look at revenue side of the equation. I think an upswing in onboard services would increase Amtrak's popularity and ridership figures. Better food and better amenities. I read, a while back, that after the Pacific Parlor Car was introduced on Coast Starlight, the Starlight had to add on more sleepers in order to provide for the popularity of the Parlor Car. But, back to cost cutting. The Starlight, at one time, had to eliminate cheese and crackers in the lounge car because of cost. (believe it or not).
Richard


Vancouvewr, BC up


----------



## lordsigma

All is not lost in the food and beverage side. The relaunched traditional dining out west that began in June seems well received. Acela first meals are also in decent shape. At least it shows progress is possible.


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## Rambling Robert

The DownEaster burrito was genuine, I think. The filling was mostly refritos (retried beans) and some chipped beef in a flour tortilla. Warmed in an oven. Sour cream and hot sauce. $3.25

Lobster prices are in flux a lot. Seasonally and locally McDonalds, years ago, had a decent lobster roll. Now they don’t even have salads.


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## TheCrescent

Why is it called “Flexible Dining” when it’s inflexible?

1. There is no choice of appetizer: it’s always a lettuce salad with one tomato.

2. Dessert is always either a brownie or a blonde in plastic wrap.

3. You have to eat in your room, at least on the Crescent.

4. It is delivered to you around 4pm or 4:30pm; you are not given a choice.

With regular dining cars, it was a lot more flexible.


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## jis

IIRC the origin of Flexible was because one was allowed to go and get food anytime without bothering about waiting to get a seat at a table and such. It had not much to do with the inflexibility of the menu, which incidentally was much worse when it originally started.


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## Sidney

Everytime I had flex dining I was given a choice of times,just like traditional. Big difference was I looked forward to the traditional dining.

Never sure why the name flexible was used.


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## jis

Sidney said:


> Everytime I had flex dining I was given a choice of times,just like traditional. Big difference was I looked forward to the traditional dining.
> 
> Never sure why the name flexible was used.


IIRC again, what actually got implemented was nothing like how it was described, which is completely par for the course at Amtrak as we know.


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## BoulderCO

It is flexible in the sense that you have choices - take it or leave it.


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## TheCrescent

Sidney said:


> Everytime I had flex dining I was given a choice of times,just like traditional. Big difference was I looked forward to the traditional dining.
> 
> Never sure why the name flexible was used.



Maybe because the plastic bag and tray it’s delivered in are flexible?


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## Train3414

I was on the Coast Starlight earlier today in Business Class (actually only Los Angeles to Oxnard for a day trip) but while onboard the Dining Car LSA in his main announcement about lunch he not only never mentioned Business Class access but he effectively implied that Business Class passengers don't have access (he made an announcement to the effect of "the option for Business and Coach passengers is the Café") I was in the Sightseer when reservations likely would've been taken (as I wouldn't have time to eat) so I don't know whether Business Class passengers were offered reservations, but if someone was potentially interested that announcement might have caused some to just give up and go hang out in the Sightseer (and possibly in fact get lunch from the Café) and they wouldn't have gotten lunch in the Dining Car. As an aside, he later was making announcements that basically came off similarly to a parent scolding a child for not requesting ice cream soon enough (I guess people were requesting reservations after he had already come through, but there was probably a better way to make that announcement.)


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## Rasputin

Highly disappointing.


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## Cal

Train3414 said:


> I was on the Coast Starlight earlier today in Business Class (actually only Los Angeles to Oxnard for a day trip) but while onboard the Dining Car LSA in his main announcement about lunch he not only never mentioned Business Class access but he effectively implied that Business Class passengers don't have access (he made an announcement to the effect of "the option for Business and Coach passengers is the Café") I was in the Sightseer when reservations likely would've been taken (as I wouldn't have time to eat) so I don't know whether Business Class passengers were offered reservations, but if someone was potentially interested that announcement might have caused some to just give up and go hang out in the Sightseer (and possibly in fact get lunch from the Café) and they wouldn't have gotten lunch in the Dining Car. As an aside, he later was making announcements that basically came off similarly to a parent scolding a child for not requesting ice cream soon enough (I guess people were requesting reservations after he had already come through, but there was probably a better way to make that announcement.)


In my experience they mentioned business class a few times, but not much. However the LSA came through the business car to take reservations.


----------



## Train3414

Cal said:


> In my experience they mentioned business class a few times, but not much. However the LSA came through the business car to take reservations.


The Business Class attendant never mentioned Dining Car access either (unless he was handling that while I was in the Sightseer) but I figured the Dining Car LSA would just explain access in his announcement. Was the Business Class attendant supposed to do more?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Train3414 said:


> I was on the Coast Starlight earlier today in Business Class (actually only Los Angeles to Oxnard for a day trip) but while onboard the Dining Car LSA in his main announcement about lunch he not only never mentioned Business Class access but he effectively implied that Business Class passengers don't have access (he made an announcement to the effect of "the option for Business and Coach passengers is the Café") I was in the Sightseer when reservations likely would've been taken (as I wouldn't have time to eat) so I don't know whether Business Class passengers were offered reservations, but if someone was potentially interested that announcement might have caused some to just give up and go hang out in the Sightseer (and possibly in fact get lunch from the Café) and they wouldn't have gotten lunch in the Dining Car. As an aside, he later was making announcements that basically came off similarly to a parent scolding a child for not requesting ice cream soon enough (I guess people were requesting reservations after he had already come through, but there was probably a better way to make that announcement.)


Another example of OBS Staff doing it their way! This should be reported to Customer Relations!


----------



## IndyLions

Unfortunately, with Amtrak you kind of have to know your own benefits (like Dining Car access). 

They have a lot of great employees, but management’s record on employee training is not great and a small minority of employees will conveniently “forget” duties or customer benefits if it makes their life easier.


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## Train3414

IndyLions said:


> Unfortunately, with Amtrak you kind of have to know your own benefits (like Dining Car access).
> 
> They have a lot of great employees, but management’s record on employee training is not great and a small minority of employees will conveniently “forget” duties or customer benefits if it makes their life easier.


I ride the Pacific Surfliner in Business Class where you get a snackbox and drink in the afternoon / evening (you get a muffin and breakfast drink in the morning although I've only ridden twice in the morning in the past year even though I've done the afternoon / evening several times recently) and the service is really inconsistent. Sometimes I get the snackbox and drink quickly after boarding. Sometimes they come right before I get off. Sometimes I have to find the attendant. I returned from Oxnard (after the Coast Starlight ride - day trip today) and I got the snackbox fairly quickly but then had to go find the attendant for the drink. One time the attendant was just relaxing in a vacant seat and the conductor gave them to me right before I stepped off at my destination after complaining (and yes, the attendant got a complaint to Amtrak and the conductor got praise.) There needs to be more of an effort to ensure excellent, consistent service (at least the services provided on the specific train) to at all times


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## Train3414

Complaint submitted to Amtrak regarding today's incident. Hopefully at least somebody is looking at them.


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## Arctifox

I travelled on the Cardinal in a roomette last week and had three meals on it. I read a lot of the discussions about traditional vs flexible dining and tried to keep an open mind. The salmon was okay, but the enchiladas and the french toast were extremely disappointing.

I do want to point out: I loved the overall trip experience and will definitely try to find ways of doing more trips like this, and I don't have an issue with the flexible dining principle in general, but the quality of the meals was extremely disappointing. It reminded me of below-average airline food on long-haul flights. For economy class flights it might be acceptable, but considering the prices Amtrak charges for roomettes and bedrooms and the premium segment they're aiming, I am seriously wondering if they are aware of what product they're selling.


----------



## Sidney

Arctifox said:


> I travelled on the Cardinal in a roomette last week and had three meals on it. I read a lot of the discussions about traditional vs flexible dining and tried to keep an open mind. The salmon was okay, but the enchiladas and the french toast were extremely disappointing.
> 
> I do want to point out: I loved the overall trip experience and will definitely try to find ways of doing more trips like this, and I don't have an issue with the flexible dining principle in general, but the quality of the meals was extremely disappointing. It reminded me of below-average airline food on long-haul flights. For economy class flights it might be acceptable, but considering the prices Amtrak charges for roomettes and bedrooms and the premium segment they're aiming, I am seriously wondering if they are aware of what product they're selling.


I don't think any Amtrak executive has ever tried anything on the flex dining menu.


----------



## gregleck

In January 2019 I was rudely made aware, after boarding a PHL to Tampa train, that there was no dining car. Had to race to the food court in DC and buy junk food just to have something to eat that night.

I understand that now only Western trains have dining cars. I am planning a NYP to Savannah trip, and a NYP - Chicago - Kansas City trip this year. I see mention of "flex dining." Is a dining car also available, or do do you eat in your compartment?

The loss of the dining car is, to me, tragic. It was a signature part of long distance train travel but appears to be going the way of Western Union delivery boys, elevator operators, and cigarette girls.


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## Cal

gregleck said:


> Is a dining car also available, or do do you eat in your compartment?


Depends. Sometimes the crew will make it room-service only, others will let you eat in the diner, I'm not sure what it depends on though. All long-distance trains still have a cafe too.


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## Tlcooper93

gregleck said:


> In January 2019 I was rudely made aware, after boarding a PHL to Tampa train, that there was no dining car. Had to race to the food court in DC and buy junk food just to have something to eat that night.
> 
> I understand that now only Western trains have dining cars. I am planning a NYP to Savannah trip, and a NYP - Chicago - Kansas City trip this year. I see mention of "flex dining." Is a dining car also available, or do do you eat in your compartment?
> 
> The loss of the dining car is, to me, tragic. It was a signature part of long distance train travel but appears to be going the way of Western Union delivery boys, elevator operators, and cigarette girls.



Many eastern trains oddly have a full dining car, but they only serve Flex dining, which is a sort of hit or miss TV dinner. Generally speaking, it’s not very good, though some (myself included) have claimed a few of the dishes are alright.

Western LD trains have full traditional dining and it’s good! 

If you feel the loss of real dining on eastern trains is tragic, you’ve come to the right forum. We here feel very passionately about it.


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## zephyr17

Lake Shore New York Section and the Silvers have a full diner you can have your miserable flex dining meal in.

The Crescent has been downgraded to only having an Amcafe. Sleeper pax het flex from it. Not sure if they let you eat in it.

The Cardinal has an Amcafe, but it never had full dining anyway.

The Capitol has a diner/lounge (aka "CCC") mutilated from a diner. Not sure if they allow you to eat your flex meal in it.


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## danasgoodstuff

As the above responses should make clear, there are two separate aspects at work here - what kind of food you get and what kind of 'dining car' you get to eat it in. And, it should be noted, 'real dining' is supposed to return to (at least some?) of the eastern trains, sometime in the 'near future'.


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## TheCrescent

In the Crescent, you eat in your room.

The Flexible Dining salmon is good!


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## TheVig

TheCrescent said:


> In the Crescent, you eat in your room.
> 
> The Flexible Dining salmon is good!



On my Crescent trips, it’s been eat in the room, or eat in the cafe car. One trip we had to eat breakfast in the room, while for lunch, they let us eat with the general population.


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## MARC Rider

zephyr17 said:


> The Capitol has a diner/lounge (aka "CCC") mutilated from a diner. Not sure if they allow you to eat your flex meal in it.



The Capitol has had the CCC for many years, even before they downgraded to flex dining. When they had real dining, I found no real difference between the CCC and a full dining car. 

On my last trip on the Capitol (October 2021) they served us our flex meals in the CCC if we wanted it. They also let us hang out there and use it as a lounge during the trip, which partly made up for the lack of a Sightseer lounge. I also rode the Capitol in coach last June, and I was allowed to eat my cafe food at the tables in the cafe end of the CCC.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Has anyone been on the Cardinal recently? I'm curious to know if they allow eating in the dining car/cafe or have you take it back to your room.


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## Arctifox

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Has anyone been on the Cardinal recently? I'm curious to know if they allow eating in the dining car/cafe or have you take it back to your room.



Yes, I have been travelling on the Cardinal from DC to Chicago two weeks ago. It was possible to eat in the cafe car, but I wasn't offered it until I asked if it's possible. The sleeping car attendant took my order at my roomette and when I went to the cafe car at the time of my dinner they just brought the ordered meal to my table. They asked everyone from the sleeper car to sit on "the other" side of the cafe, the one closer to the coach cars (I don't know for sure how it's been done in the past but I thought I read that sleeper passengers sit on one side of the cafe car and coach passengers on the other).


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## drdumont

IndyLions said:


> Unfortunately, with Amtrak you kind of have to know your own benefits (like Dining Car access).
> 
> They have a lot of great employees, but management’s record on employee training is not great and a small minority of employees will conveniently “forget” duties or customer benefits if it makes their life easier.



Truer words have never been said. I remember some years ago when the normally excellent dining car service (on a Northbound Crescent) set out paper plates and plasticware including cups, saying that "AMTRAK" had changed from the other "for SAFETY reasons". This lasted a couple of trips. I asked the AMTRAK folks in Phila, and they said "not only no, but HELL no!". Took the info about my trip and the pictures I had taken. I returned three days later and things were back to normal. One DCA attendant said "there were repercussions". It was one particular crew that didn't want to deal with dirty dishes.


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## Cal

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Has anyone been on the Cardinal recently? I'm curious to know if they allow eating in the dining car/cafe or have you take it back to your room.


Might depend on the crew so..


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## IndyLions

Anyone been on the Eastbound Cardinal into DC lately? It gets into DC at 7:44pm. That makes me think that certainly they'll be serving dinner for passengers disembarking in Washington. But - with Amtrak you never know. Anyone with any recent experience?


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## BalmyZephyr

IndyLions said:


> Anyone been on the Eastbound Cardinal into DC lately? It gets into DC at 7:44pm. That makes me think that certainly they'll be serving dinner for passengers disembarking in Washington. But - with Amtrak you never know. Anyone with any recent experience?



We did that in December and were on an early dinner schedule, like 5 PM, so we did get dinner. Then we had a second dinner at the Au Bon Pain in the station before getting on our NE Regional sleeper. Very nice people work there! But, make sure to check with your SCA in advance.


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## Mailliw

Well, I finally got a chance to try flex dining for myself on the westbound Lakeshore Limited this weekend. It was pretty much as expected; long haul economy airline food. It wasn't bad per se, but it was such a waste of a real dining car. And so much disposable plastic. Traditional Dining should be reinstated on Eastern LDs, or at least aim for airline Business/First standards. The dining car attendant was fantastic though. Oh, and only _five _Railroad French Toasts got loaded in NYC.


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## Steve4031

Flexible dining on east coast trains needs to disappear ASAP. The menus on the west coast trains are so much better.


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## Sidney

Steve4031 said:


> Flexible dining on east coast trains needs to disappear ASAP. The menus on the west coast trains are so much better.


We have been saying that here since flex dining was introduced.


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## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Flexible dining on east coast trains needs to disappear ASAP. The menus on the west coast trains are so much better.


Don't just say "disappear" to give them ideas about removing all food service!  Remember they did do that on the Silver Star for a while! Be more specific and say "needs to be replaced by traditional dining like on the Western LD trains".


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## Steve4031

jis said:


> Don't just say "disappear" to give them ideas about removing all food service!  Remember they did do that on the Silver Star for a while! Be more specific and say "needs to be replaced by traditional dining like on the Western LD trains".



Agreed.


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## TheCrescent

Try the Crescent: no dining car, Flexible Dining.


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## jis

TheCrescent said:


> Try the Crescent: no dining car, Flexible Dining.


Did anyone tell them to "disappear" the Dining Car?


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## Cal

Mailliw said:


> long haul economy airline food.


In my experience long haul airline economy food is better. Heck, even the meal Vietnam Airlines gave me on a three hour flight was pretty good.


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## Burns651

jis said:


> Don't just say "disappear" to give them ideas about removing all food service!...


I don't think Amtrak's food decisions are influenced much by message board comments. Declining food sales would get its attention-- and actually would probably feel like a relief to Amtrak, giving it cover to ditch anything beyond a cafe car.


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## jis

Burns651 said:


> I don't think Amtrak's food decisions are influenced much by message board comments. Declining food sales would get its attention-- and actually would probably feel like a relief to Amtrak, giving it cover to ditch anything beyond a cafe car.


I guess I should have placed a smiley in that post. Sorry for giving the impression that I was actually serious about that comment.


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## MARC Rider

Cal said:


> In my experience long haul airline economy food is better.


You haven't flown United Airlines in coach between Washington and Beijing. Amtrak Flex food beats what they serve hands-down. The stuff coming out of the Beijing commissary was pretty close to inedible. The only saving grace was free wine and beer, so I was able to sleep, at lest.


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## IndyLions

There have been multiple assertions here that First class food on US airlines is a standard that Amtrak should try to meet on the East Coast.

I have been on a dozen or more First Class flights in the past 24 months or so, and for the most part there is very little real food being served in First Class.

In the interest of fairness, I thought I should post a halfway decent experience I had on AA between DFW and San Diego (the dessert looks better than it tasted, by the way). The only other meal I had been served of any kind was a “just OK” packaged sandwich between LAX and MInneapolis on Delta.

This was basically on the level of what I had on Acela pre-Covid, and it was a little better than OK. Every Amtrak meal I had on the CZ and the CL back in OCT blew it away however.


----------



## BBoy

My brother put together a trip coming in June over from NYP to LAX via CHI and NOL and then to SEA. On AMTK #1 from NOL-LAX, will passegers traveling in coach be allowed to have dinner in the dining car (much less flex dining) as are sleeping car passengers ; or are they stuck in getting food on the lower level of the SSL?


----------



## Cal

BBoy said:


> will passegers traveling in coach be allowed to have dinner in the dining car (much less flex dining)


No, you must get it from the cafe unfortunately.


----------



## Train3414

BBoy said:


> My brother put together a trip coming in June over from NYP to LAX via CHI and NOL and then to SEA. On AMTK #1 from NOL-LAX, will passegers traveling in coach be allowed to have dinner in the dining car (much less flex dining) as are sleeping car passengers ; or are they stuck in getting food on the lower level of the SSL?


Amtrak has said before that the ability to purchase meals in the Dining Car as Coach will be returning at some point (probably when a lot of the pandemic area physical distancing protocols are no longer in place) and Dining Car access (for purchase) has already returned for Business Class passengers on the Coast Starlight, so there is a possibility you may be able to eat in the Dining Car in June, but I would expect no access and if you do get access, treat that as your expectations being exceeded.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> You haven't flown United Airlines in coach between Washington and Beijing. Amtrak Flex food beats what they serve hands-down. The stuff coming out of the Beijing commissary was pretty close to inedible.


UA's coach meals were the worst I've seen. Out of fifteen airlines that served me food in coach they were dead last. Even the special request meals were surprisingly bad. I did enjoy their snack packs but the last time I flew them they said none were catered on long hauls anymore.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Again, I ask why can’t we have Acela first class meals on the Eastern trains? Why is the previous BOD still in charge along with Gardner? As the months go by we are going to reach a time and place of no return. The new Board members need to be appointed and confirmed now.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Again, I ask why can’t we have Acela first class meals on the Eastern trains? Why is the previous BOD still in charge along with Gardner? As the months go by we are going to reach a time and place of no return. The new Board members need to be appointed and confirmed now.


Sounds good. I would love to try the Tandoori Chicken.


----------



## MARC Rider

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Sounds good. I would love to try the Tandoori Chicken.


Too late, they switched the menu. Now the choices are: Spanish style pork stew, vegetable puff pastry, cobb salad, and the fruit and cheese plate.


----------



## lordsigma

I just got off a trip on the lake shore and zephyr. Yes traditional dining on the zephyr blew away flex not surprisingly - but the short ribs meal on the lake shore was quite edible and tasty. I also found the French toast flex meal better than I expected - though it seems like the diner attendant on the lake shore was taking the time to ensure the flex meals were heated properly and not overdone or underdone. Additionally the Lake shore has been running with an extra LSA at times who helps out in the diner - so it gives the diner LSA more time to properly heat the flex meals. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the flex meals are significantly worse on routes with the split am cafe as the sole attendant probably doesn’t have time to do anything other than nuke the meals. In my opinion the biggest problem with flex is the presentation - if they took the time to plate the meals I think it would help a lot. The initial presentation is always worse than how the meal actually tastes in my experience. I think if properly heated they can be fine - but clearly sometimes they are not being prepped properly.

As far as the meals on the Zephyr - both my dinner and breakfast were great. Steak dinner was one of my best tasting Amtrak meals yet.


----------



## Dakota 400

lordsigma said:


> I just got off a trip on the lake shore and zephyr. Yes traditional dining on the zephyr blew away flex not surprisingly - but the short ribs meal on the lake shore was quite edible and tasty. I also found the French toast flex meal better than I expected - though it seems like the diner attendant on the lake shore was taking the time to ensure the flex meals were heated properly and not overdone or underdone. Additionally the Lake shore has been running with an extra LSA at times who helps out in the diner - so it gives the diner LSA more time to properly heat the flex meals.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if the flex meals are significantly worse on routes with the split am cafe as the sole attendant probably doesn’t have time to do anything other than nuke the meals. In my opinion the biggest problem with flex is the presentation - if they took the time to plate the meals I think it would help a lot. The initial presentation is always worse than how the meal actually tastes in my experience. I think if properly heated they can be fine - but clearly sometimes they are not being prepped properly.
> 
> As far as the meals on the Zephyr - both my dinner and breakfast were great. Steak dinner was one of my best tasting Amtrak meals yet.



Good to see flowers on the tables again, but, the one shown in your photo is really a bit too large and bushy to be really appropriate, in my opinion.


----------



## joelkfla

Dakota 400 said:


> Good to see flowers on the tables again, but, the one shown in your photo is really a bit too large and bushy to be really appropriate, in my opinion.


There have been a lot of photos like that. But at least there's a bloom in the center. I've seen some seem to have been nothing but leaves and some tiny flowers.


----------



## IndyLions

lordsigma said:


> …though it seems like the diner attendant on the lake shore was taking the time to ensure the flex meals were heated properly and not overdone or underdone.
> 
> Additionally the Lake shore has been running with an extra LSA at times who helps out in the diner - so it gives the diner LSA more time to properly heat the flex meals.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if the flex meals are significantly worse on routes with the split am cafe as the sole attendant probably doesn’t have time to do anything other than nuke the meals…



You made several points here which (based on my own experiences) are right on the money.

The trains with the new VL2 diner cars have facilities which allow for a much better preparation of the Flex Meals then do the split café cars (warming drawers, more refrigeration, etc). 
Having an appropriate amount of staffing in the diner car also makes a huge difference.
The attitude, willingness, and work ethic of the crews also comes into play for sure.
We’re getting ready to hop on the Cardinal and the Silver Star again this weekend, and I’ll be curious if anything has changed in 12 months.

Last year around this time the difference in Flex Meal preparation was night and day between the Cardinal and the Silvers. The Silvers had better crews, better equipment, and apparently better staffing levels than the Cardinal.

That being said, Traditional Dining can’t come soon enough on the East Coast. You can only put so much lipstick on a pig.


----------



## cassie225

I ain’t getting on the Crescent until they put back traditional dining.


----------



## TheVig

cassie225 said:


> I ain’t getting on the Crescent until they put back traditional dining.



I’ll be on the Crescent again at the end of April. Roomette. I’ll bring some high quality snacks with me. Back in October I brought a small cooler with me. I shared my stash of caviar and champagne with my fellow sleeper passengers.

Gotta do what ya gotta do to make the whole experience palatable.


----------



## Joe from PA

Will be on the Star next Saturday. Will go to the dining car to eat. Maybe they should change the name to "Eating Car".


----------



## fillyjonk

Joe from PA said:


> Will be on the Star next Saturday. Will go to the dining car to eat. Maybe they should change the name to "Eating Car".


"Feeding car." in the sense that "eating" is what humans do, "feeding" is what livestock are made to do. (A German relative of mine used to say "Essen, essen, nicht fressen" to children, meanng "eat like a person" (essen) "and not like an animal" (fressen))

that said, I don't find the flex meals SO terrible, if only they didn't microwave them too long or let them stand too long. But I would really welcome "real" dining back. If it's ever pandemic-safe to do that


----------



## fdaley

cassie225 said:


> I ain’t getting on the Crescent until they put back traditional dining.



This is just how I feel about the Crescent and Lake Shore, which were the two LD trains in the east that I've really used a lot over the past 30-40 years. I just have no desire to be aboard either one with the current food situation, certainly not for an overnight trip. The pandemic and various family health issues have kept me close to home for the past two years anyway, and it's a safe bet that I'll be staying north of Roanoke and east of Buffalo at least for this year.


----------



## den4192

My sister and myself will be taking the zephyr in early june. I know with us both having our own roommete that meals come with our trip. I have heard that the traditional menu has returned with some very good options. My questions are.

1. Is there somewhere on the amtrak site that has a copy of the menu so I could see what the offerings presently are
2. If I wanted to dine in my room is that possible and how does that work. Is it the same for all meals or only certain ones?


----------



## cocojacoby

Yes there is:



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0621.pdf



And you should be able to dine in your room.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

Looking at the "traditional" dining menu, breakfast and dinner look great. But to my mind, lunch is pretty bad. Question: two items on the so-called children's menu look better to me. Although I ..ahem.. no longer fit in the children's age range--for many a decade now--can anyone order from the "children's menu"?


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## IndyLions

My wife and I were on the Cardinal and Silver Meteor about a year ago exactly. Not much has changed on our current trip. The Cardinal crew was better than last year. But the Cardinal Cafe/Lounge is still mainly a private crew domicile - no customers allowed in half of the car. But my SCA was a young guy - very solid.

The VLII Sleeper and Diner on the combined Silver Star/Meteor are still beautiful, and the Diner is still mostly wasted. But it’s nice to have a place to eat outside of the room - even if it is self serve. But no one wipes off the tables between seatings - which is highly disappointing. Seems like a good crew otherwise - does no one train them?

Meanwhile - to close on a good note - we got our first non-Brownie/Blondie dessert in about a dozen Flex Meals. It was a step up in my opinion.




So my current conclusion with limited evidence is that there are some good young people working - they just need supervision and better training. The promise is there.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Amtrak is advertising a job opening in Miami for a Lead Service Attendant and…Chef. Maybe there’s hope on the horizon?


----------



## jpakala

My favorite lunch on the Sunset Limited last week was the Savory Chili in a baked potato with the 4 toppings (the sour cream is in a separate envelope and actually I skipped the bacon, but the cheddar cheese and scallions were on top of the entree).


----------



## Dakota 400

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> -can anyone order from the "children's menu"?



Yes. I have done so. The Mac n' Cheese was a good lunch option for me during one multi-day trip on the Sunset Limited followed by the Southwest Chief.


----------



## fdaley

Dakota 400 said:


> Yes. I have done so. The Mac n' Cheese was a good lunch option for me during one multi-day trip on the Sunset Limited followed by the Southwest Chief.



I think this may depend on the inclination of the crew, unless things have changed since the reinstatement of dining service in the West. I can recall several pre-Covid trips on the Chief over the past decade in which we were told -- or heard other diners being told -- that grown-ups could not order pizza from the children's menu for lunch because the crew had to preserve the inventory of pizzas for customers under 12.


----------



## Dakota 400

fdaley said:


> I think this may depend on the inclination of the crew, unless things have changed since the reinstatement of dining service in the West. I can recall several pre-Covid trips on the Chief over the past decade in which we were told -- or heard other diners being told -- that grown-ups could not order pizza from the children's menu for lunch because the crew had to preserve the inventory of pizzas for customers under 12.



The trip I cited was pre-Covid and there was no issue when I asked if I could order from the Children's Menu. I agree, the inclination of a crew may be a factor as to whether this is allowed. Maybe the amount of certain foods loaded might also be a factor.


----------



## fdaley

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> Looking at the "traditional" dining menu, breakfast and dinner look great. But to my mind, lunch is pretty bad. Question: two items on the so-called children's menu look better to me. Although I ..ahem.. no longer fit in the children's age range--for many a decade now--can anyone order from the "children's menu"?



So I think the best advice is that if you see something on the children's menu that you'd really prefer, by all means ask for it, but maybe have a Plan B from the main menu in case the crew can't/won't allow orders from the children's menu.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

fdaley said:


> So I think the best advice is that if you see something on the children's menu that you'd really prefer, by all means ask for it, but maybe have a Plan B from the main menu in case the crew can't/won't allow orders from the children's menu.


This is the answer that fits what I've seen on my trips. Some LSA's see no problem while others refuse to allow it. Just depends on the crew's prerogative.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Could also depend on how many kids are in sleepers that run relative to how many kids meals loaded and whether you're eating lunch before or after them.


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## IndyLions

Travel Dining in 2022 is not at the height of deliciousness- to be sure.
Here’s a post from travel blogger Paul Lucas - an opinion I trust - with a report on a current meal on an up front international ride SFO to Frankfurt.

Frankly - other than a little bit nicer salad - the meal looks less appealing than your typical Amtrak flex meal…


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## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Frankly - other than a little bit nicer salad - the meal looks less appealing than your typical Amtrak flex meal…



It looks more appealing than the flex meals I’ve had. It’s also plated and presented nicer. 

I do agree with him that International 1st should be better, that’s for sure. This is what I would expect on a regional 1st.


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> It looks more appealing than the flex meals I’ve had. It’s also plated and presented nicer.
> 
> I do agree with him that International 1st should be better, that’s for sure. This is what I would expect on a regional 1st.



Just a detail... United does not have International First Class anymore. They have what they call Polaris which is a little polished up version of what Continental used to call Business-First, which never was anything like real international first class, even United's own international first class back then, with Champaign and Caviar and all.


----------



## lordsigma

IndyLions said:


> Travel Dining in 2022 is not at the height of deliciousness- to be sure.
> Here’s a post from travel blogger Paul Lucas - an opinion I trust - with a report on a current meal on an up front international ride SFO to Frankfurt.
> 
> Frankly - other than a little bit nicer salad - the meal looks less appealing than your typical Amtrak flex meal…
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 28001



I suspect the two recent flex meals I had which were the short ribs and the chicken ala rosa were better than how this looks (though the salad here looks better). The United presentation is undoubtedly better but I suspect at the end of the day the Amtrak ones win on taste. One inconsistency with the flex is that when served in a viewliner 2 diner the flex meals are heated in the diner's ovens though reportedly are still microwaved when served on the trains where only one attendant is handling both cafe and sleeper meal service. These meals are meant to be heated in a turbo chef not a microwave and this probably makes a huge difference for the finished product.


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## tim49424

lordsigma said:


> I suspect the two recent flex meals I had which were the short ribs



I had them on the Texas Eagle 21 today for lunch and they were better than I expected. I was tempted to get the meatballs for dinner but stuck with the ribs. When I make my return trip north tomorrow on 22, I might try the meatballs at least once. Nothing on flex compares to traditional to me, however.


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## Joe from PA

On the Silver Star on 3/19-20, our meals were served in a cardboard box, both in-room and IN THE DINING CAR.


----------



## Sidney

Joe from PA said:


> On the Silver Star on 3/19-20, our meals were served in a cardboard box, both in-room and IN THE DINING CAR.


Real classy,Amtrak. Will traditional dining EVER return to the Eastern trains and The Eagle?


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## drdumont

tim49424 said:


> I had them on the Texas Eagle 21 today for lunch and they were better than I expected. I was tempted to get the meatballs for dinner but stuck with the ribs. When I make my return trip north tomorrow on 22, I might try the meatballs at least once. Nothing on flex compares to traditional to me, however.


They MIGHT have been a good idea in the beginning, but the portions are skimpy and the "cooking" - reheating is uneven. This last weekend (Wed - Monday)I had the "beef" and the "pasta". the "Beef" was fair, the potatoes were brown on the periphery and cool in the middle. THe pasta was mushy, meatballs relatively tasteless and mushy. Only my trusty bottle of Cholula helped. A little.
I ate from our cooler and fared much better. My egg/cheese/bacon hot sandwiches freshly made were excellent.
The words "FLEX" and "DINING" are mutually exclusive.
Bill the server was at least competent, friendly and a joy. The Scas were - to put it mildly - unattentive and uncommunicative.


----------



## tim49424

drdumont said:


> They MIGHT have been a good idea in the beginning, but the portions are skimpy and the "cooking" - reheating is uneven. This last weekend (Wed - Monday)I had the "beef" and the "pasta". the "Beef" was fair, the potatoes were brown on the periphery and cool in the middle. THe pasta was mushy, meatballs relatively tasteless and mushy. Only my trusty bottle of Cholula helped. A little.
> I ate from our cooler and fared much better. My egg/cheese/bacon hot sandwiches freshly made were excellent.
> The words "FLEX" and "DINING" are mutually exclusive.
> Bill the server was at least competent, friendly and a joy. The Scas were - to put it mildly - unattentive and uncommunicative.



I do agree with most of what you said. As I stated before, I was surprised that it tasted good as I’ve had my share of flex meals and they ranged from awful to barely edible. I’ve had my meals in my room and the dining attendant just brought my lunch as I’m typing this. He’s one of the better ones I’ve had in my hundreds of trips on Amtrak. I had him for the first time on 21(4) and have him again on 22(6). Also, my SCA, who I’ve had on those trains is a “repeat offender” I’ve experienced him on the Empire Builder and when he was extra board on the LSL. Hard worker, very attentive and an all around great guy! 

Back to flex, if we must…. It can disappear permanently from existence in my opinion and Amtrak should never have made that mistake in the first place! Give me a crab lobster cake, flat iron steak and cheesecake any time over the garbage of flex.


----------



## jis

Joe from PA said:


> On the Silver Star on 3/19-20, our meals were served in a cardboard box, both in-room and IN THE DINING CAR.


There is a Dining Car? Where? I thought it was the Sleeper Lounge Car even though it does say Dining Car outside


----------



## pennyk

Joe from PA said:


> On the Silver Star on 3/19-20, our meals were served in a cardboard box, both in-room and IN THE DINING CAR.


I personally think the boxes are an efficient way to serve the flex meals. I had no complaints about the method of serving the meals during my last Silver Star trip at the end of March. I think the crew is doing the best they can in the circumstances.


----------



## drdumont

pennyk said:


> I personally think the boxes are an efficient way to serve the flex meals. I had no complaints about the method of serving the meals during my last Silver Star trip at the end of March. I think the crew is doing the best they can in the circumstances.



Well, the boxes are an efficient way of serving this stuff. Boxes are also excellent for taking out the trash.
This last weekend, we got the trash delivered on the little black plastic tray. Again, trash is trash no matter the container.
And you are right, most of the attendants try to make the best of it.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

What did Amtrak say about food service in the RPA presentation last week?


----------



## jis

Amtrakfflyer said:


> What did Amtrak say about food service in the RPA presentation last week?


AFAIAC Larry Chestler was a disappointment. It was mostly standard platitudes with one or two pieces of useful information about timelines for equipment acquisition. I don't recall hearing much about food, but then it is possible I had dozed off.


----------



## ltcsz

Will be on the California Zephyr in early June. Just wondering if the "real food" (traditional) is back? Thanks!


----------



## joelkfla

ltcsz said:


> Will be on the California Zephyr in early June. Just wondering if the "real food" (traditional) is back? Thanks!


Yes, all western LD trains except Texas Eagle have traditional dining, but ONLY for sleeper passengers. Coach passengers only have access to the Cafe car.

You can verify this on the website booking page by clicking on "Trip Details", then "Services" on a displayed itinerary.


----------



## ltcsz

Thanks!


----------



## ScottR

Just completed a run on the Zephyr from Denver to Emeryville. We had a good time…the scenery on that train is glorious. I love my Amtrak grits though…that and some eggs are a classic railroad meal for me. Well… on this train at least…..you can’t get the grits unless you have a continental Breakfast….in which case you can’t get the eggs. It’s a catch 22!

Also I was told I can’t have an iPad at my table…which, at my age, is just used as a big iPhone so I can see the damn thing, which everyone else had a phone and seemed to be ok….I know I should just be looking out the window anyway.

it was a great trip and there was a cloud over Donner Pass I had to yell at…but I still love the trains!


----------



## IndyLions

Sigh…the customer service of some crews just makes me shake my head. 

And yes - the fact that management took supervisory positions off the trains is even worse…


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

ScottR said:


> Just completed a run on the Zephyr from Denver to Emeryville. We had a good time…the scenery on that train is glorious. I love my Amtrak grits though…that and some eggs are a classic railroad meal for me. Well… on this train at least…..you can’t get the grits unless you have a continental Breakfast….in which case you can’t get the eggs. It’s a catch 22!
> 
> Also I was told I can’t have an iPad at my table…which, at my age, is just used as a big iPhone so I can see the damn thing, which everyone else had a phone and seemed to be ok….I know I should just be looking out the window anyway.
> 
> it was a great trip and there was a cloud over Donner Pass I had to yell at…but I still love the trains!


Wow it seems if they already have grits and have eggs they should be able to put both on a plate. Personally I'm not a big fan, as a confirmed Yankee I prefer potatoes for my nutrition free calories at breakfast. But I imagine there is a large segment of the population that would appreciate a fairly simple to add menu addition.

As for the iPad ban that seems strange. I see people with entire laptops at their table in restaurants. Does this mean if I brought a book with me to the diner (as I might do if traveling alone) that would not be allowed?


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## Dakota 400

No IPad at the table? That sounds like a "dining car staff made rule". If it is not, then it is a stupid Amtrak rule.


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> No IPad at the table? That sounds like a "dining car staff made rule". If it is not, then it is a stupid Amtrak rule.


In the spirit of Hall Monitors in British style Public Schools!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> No IPad at the table? That sounds like a "dining car staff made rule". If it is not, then it is a stupid Amtrak rule.



I’ve heard no laptops, no books, no cell phones, etc. on Amtrak.

And yes a very silly rule.


----------



## jis

Well, I suppose it is all in line with trying to make the Dining Car an as uninviting a place as possible


----------



## Rasputin

No grits with your omelet, French toast or scrambled eggs. Have they fallen on their head?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve heard no laptops, no books, no cell phones, etc. on Amtrak. And yes a very silly rule.


I agree that it's silly to have it as a rule, but it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them. If someone wants no social contact they should get their food to go instead of pretending they're seated alone despite all evidence to the contrary.


----------



## JayPea

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree that it's silly to have it as a rule, but it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them. If someone wants no social contact they should get their food to go instead of pretending they're seated alone despite all evidence to the contrary.


I agree here, as one who by and large is not very social. I've been told I'm the type of person who gets lost in a crowd of two, and I can't disagree with that.  Yet I enjoy the camaraderie of the dining car and actually (gasp!!) look forward to meeting new people in the diner. Ordinarily, the thought of meeting new people makes me very nervous.


----------



## Cal

During my December CS trip me and my travelling partner were seated with two ladies who were on their phone and talking with each other the whole time. No word from the crew.


----------



## west point

Is it true that the legislation requires an independent committee to determine best course for what Amtrak dining metrics were to be? So, if that is true, we are not going to see any improvement until a recommendation is made. The other problem now IMO is that the lack of OBS to assign to diners means service is going to be crappy until then. Plus, no coach passengers in diner yet?


----------



## ScottR

JayPea said:


> I agree here, as one who by and large is not very social. I've been told I'm the type of person who gets lost in a crowd of two, and I can't disagree with that.  Yet I enjoy the camaraderie of the dining car and actually (gasp!!) look forward to meeting new people in the diner. Ordinarily, the thought of meeting new people makes me very nervous.


I’m a little like that, but on my last few trips they seat you singular. I’ve actually said I didn’t mind sitting with other folks only to have no takers….although that could just be me


----------



## Tlcooper93

I was able to use my iPad at the table and get some work done while waiting for my meal aboard the EB in December. It was just my wife and I and we often were eating at non crowded times.


----------



## ScottR

Dakota 400 said:


> No IPad at the table? That sounds like a "dining car staff made rule". If it is not, then it is a stupid Amtrak rule.


I think…like the grits thing…it’s a personal rule, as I’ve never heard of either in all my travels except for that particular dining car attendant. I don’t think I did anything to make him mad. I even left a tip! Could be they were just running short of grits… now That I’m talking about it…I’ll just go make some now!


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree that it's silly to have it as a rule, but it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them. If someone wants no social contact they should get their food to go instead of pretending they're seated alone despite all evidence to the contrary.


If I was traveling alone but seated with another person I would prefer conversation but in the current situation where people are seated apart I might want a book or to use my phone or a tablet to catch up on AU posts for example.


----------



## fillyjonk

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve heard no laptops, no books, no cell phones, etc. on Amtrak.
> 
> And yes a very silly rule.


I have never seen this on Amtrak. I've been at dinner in the before-times where each of the other strangers at the table was on their phone or reading a book so they could avoid talking to strangers. And I've been on where someone used their phone to help everyone figure out where we were and how far behind.

this is a silly rule, and I suspect it's at the caprice of the person running the dining car. Especially now when people are seated alone - it's a stupid rule

I wonder if it was established on trains where people were clogging up the dining car by sitting there while done eating - or eating more slowly than they would otherwise - and the crew thought by banning books and devices it'll turf people out faster.


----------



## Steve4031

I usually take my Kindle in case I’m stuck with people who don’t socialize. I usually get in there quickly enough I get a window. Then if I’m with anti social people I look out the window. Thank if we stop for along time I have something to read.


----------



## Railspike

When some people get on their phones they have no regard for others who don't want to hear what's going on in that person's life. It seems like the person on the phone could care less and wants everyone to hear their conversation in stores, restaurants, etc. Perhaps Amtrak wants to spare the other diners from having to listen to those conversations. Just a thought.


----------



## ScottR

Well you are right about phones, I’ve met those people before. As a reticent person, it amazes me how “unedited“ some folks can be.…but it’s an iPad I’m talking about….generally I’m looking at it and not talking to it. At any rate…I should just be looking out the window Anyway. Life is short and getting shorter!


----------



## jis

I have had an iPad with a moving map setup leaning against the window at a Diner table and there have been folks at the table who loved it and others who were too busy messaging on their Smartphones. I think a new norm in the age of hand held devices and wearables is yet to crystallize as far as their usage in a communal situation goes.


----------



## ScottR

Yes I love the map and seeing where we are. I’ll join you for dinner anytime! It will indeed be interesting to see how it all works out. I like talking to my dining companions, looking out at the scenery, but when alone it’s also nice to check the news or even just check the map and see where we are and when the sunrise and sunset is going to be. I do love to watch the sunrise and the sunset from the train…although despite the best laid plans I often miss the former!


----------



## Steve4031

I do the map on my iPhone. Usually never noticed unless someone asks where we are. Then I look and tell them.


----------



## TheVig

In less than two weeks, we'll be on the Crescent. Almost have myself talked into the microwave version of the french toast. lol.

As far as communal dining is concerned, we enjoy it. Have met some really cool people, and some head cases too.


----------



## ScottR

The Crescent is the one big named train I’ve never done. Unfortunately they don’t have the full diner experience I think…which is criminal for a train that goes to New Orleans. Someday all the trains will have a diner and an observation car, you will be able to go all the way from downtown San Francisco to Miami, there will be wine tasting in the Pacific Parlor car, and we will always be on time! But…until then, I’ll keep riding anyway!


----------



## Dakota 400

JayPea said:


> Yet I enjoy the camaraderie of the dining car and actually (gasp!!) look forward to meeting new people in the diner.



There has been discussion on a cruise oriented message board about how cruising/traveling seems to make it, somehow, more easy to open and have a conversation with other travelers. That has been my experience for certain. And, it applies only to traveling by train or during a cruise. I have attempted trying to have a brief conversation with seatmates when I have flown. The great majority of time, it's been unsuccessful. But, if I am sitting at the bar in an airline's loyalty flyers lounge, (such as Sky Club) or at the bar in an airport's lounge, conversation is not so difficult to get started. 



Devil's Advocate said:


> it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them.



Some of us would not call such behavior "silly". Some of us would call their behavior "rude".


----------



## ScottR

ScottR said:


> The Crescent is the one big named train I’ve never done. Unfortunately they don’t have the full diner experience I think…which is criminal for a train that goes to New Orleans. Someday all the trains will have a diner and an observation car, you will be able to go all the way from downtown San Francisco to Miami, there will be wine tasting in the Pacific Parlor car, and we will always be on time! But…until then, I’ll keep riding anyway!


Ps…is it even POSSIBLE to have ”dinner in the diner, nothing could be finer….than to have your ham and eggs in North Carolina”…


----------



## Sidney

You can have microwaved french


ScottR said:


> Ps…is it even POSSIBLE to have ”dinner in the diner, nothing could be finer….than to have your ham and eggs in North Carolina”…


You can have microwaved french toast and a microwaved omelette in the Carolinas going East. I broke many a fork attempting to eat them. I also had one of the surliest sleeping car attendants on my Crescent trip last year.


----------



## TheVig

ScottR said:


> Ps…is it even POSSIBLE to have ”dinner in the diner, nothing could be finer….than to have your ham and eggs in North Carolina”…



We'll be taking it from CLT to NYP. We'll get breakfast and lunch. Last fall when we were on the Crescent, we got to have our flex meals in the cafe car. They shutdown the cafe car to coach passengers, for about 2 hours. Both microwaves running non-stop heating up flex meals for us sleeper passengers.


----------



## TheVig

Sidney said:


> You can have microwaved frenchYou can have microwaved french toast and a microwaved omelette in the Carolinas going East. I broke many a fork attempting to eat them.* I also had one of the surliest sleeping car attendants* on my Crescent trip last year.



I won't mention names, but I think I know who you are talking about.


----------



## ScottR

TheVig said:


> I won't mention names, but I think I know who you are talking about.


And that is a sad testimony…because I had that same experience on the Zephyr this weekend. Personalities matter. I know this might be controversial, but I really truly resent having to tailor my experience to the mood of the OBS that day. Had a bad day? Deal with it…we all do so somtimes.

Maybe you are badly trained…misinformed? I don’t know what but with the minimal staffing and lack of supervision one bad egg (not provided with the continental breakfast) can just ruin the whole trip. And it’s more than just irritating when you are paying $500 for a roomette. I want a modicum of service thank you very much. I want some grits with my eggs and a look at my iPad.

I want you to do your job…that is it. All I’m asking.


----------



## Cal

fillyjonk said:


> Especially now when people are seated alone - it's a stupid rule


Hasn't community seating been back for a while? Or is it still up to the crews..


----------



## Cal

Railspike said:


> When some people get on their phones they have no regard for others who don't want to hear what's going on in that person's life. It seems like the person on the phone could care less and wants everyone to hear their conversation in stores, restaurants, etc. Perhaps Amtrak wants to spare the other diners from having to listen to those conversations. Just a thought.


I believe we're talking about people texting and reading things on their phone, not having a conversation. 

Personally, I usually have my phone there to take pictures of the food and passing scenery, and also check a moving map. Sometimes I'll also check other things while it's open. However, when seated with people who enjoy socializing, I will of course listen and partake in their conversation. Last summer on the Chief I was seated with a very friendly Amtrak engineer based in Reno and his wife, I loved the conversation with them (and we were all loving the then-newish traditional dining).


----------



## ScottR

ScottR said:


> Ps…is it even POSSIBLE to have ”dinner in the diner, nothing could be finer….than to have your ham and eggs in North Carolina”…


Well upon a few listenings, I got the song wrong! It’s just Carolina! North or South…both great states I hope to visit some day


----------



## SouthwestDude

Cal said:


> Hasn't community seating been back for a while? Or is it still up to the crews..



As a solo traveler on the Starlight, Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited in the last 10 days I can report that there has been no communal seating for dining on any of those trains. Is that a policy or crew decision? Dunno


----------



## lordsigma

SouthwestDude said:


> As a solo traveler on the Starlight, Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited in the last 10 days I can report that there has been no communal seating for dining on any of those trains. Is that a policy or crew decision? Dunno


Per management policy - Amtrak crews are not supposed to be requiring communal dining. Communal dining is only to occur if parties voluntarily or specifically ask to be seated together.


----------



## fillyjonk

Cal said:


> Hasn't community seating been back for a while? Or is it still up to the crews..


Last time I traveled, they were still seating solo travelers alone. That was in January


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If they aren’t going to allow coach passengers to sit in the diner that means they have the space to allow parties to sit alone. That’s a great improvement in service.

I have had a great time sharing a table on Amtrak but I’ve also had some awkward experiences and honestly would rather eat alone most of the time.


----------



## Mailliw

Fair point, but I think it's better to accommodate passengers wishing to dine alone with room service than by banning coach passengers from the dining car entirely.


----------



## west point

Mailliw said:


> Fair point, but I think it's better to accommodate passengers wishing to dine alone with room service than by banning coach passengers from the dining car entirely.


I agree


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mailliw said:


> Fair point, but I think it's better to accommodate passengers wishing to dine alone with room service than by banning coach passengers from the dining car entirely.



Oh I agree. I think coach passengers should have access to the dining car, but if they don’t I think sleeping car passengers should be able to use the available space for solo dining.


----------



## Cal

fillyjonk said:


> Last time I traveled, they were still seating solo travelers alone. That was in January


In my December trip it was communal seating. Weird, seems to be up to the train/crew


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> In my December trip it was communal seating. Weird, seems to be up to the train/crew


My November trip it was eating alone on all trains (Builder, Lake Shore, SW Chief, Starlight).

Just another example of Amtrak's stellar customer service consistency that it is widely known for.


----------



## lordsigma

Cal said:


> In my December trip it was communal seating. Weird, seems to be up to the train/crew


It isn't supposed to be. I had a trip in March where they were doing it as well - but if they are the crew is doing it on their own. I had a couple instances on a recent trip of crews requiring it to eat in the diner anyway - and it seemed like they were doing it so they could just use the tables in one half of the diner which understandably puts less strain on the staff. I can see why they want to push communal dining but they aren't supposed to do so according to current company policy.


----------



## ScottR

There are enough of us who ride the trains to see a pattern here. You’ve all just pointed it out again and again. Some of Amtrak‘s rules may be not be too our liking, in which case we can complain E-mail Us | Amtrak. Just don’t put (no matter how much you want too) ”damn” in the comments

But the main issue we all see is the sheer arbitrariness of all of it. My experience should not be what the OBS decides it’s going to be that day. That is bad training and unprofessional. But we have here a passionate group, willing to pay the price to do something we love, and a not so passionate group taking our money. And it’s not going to be a popular opinion, but most OBS are not customer focussed. I wish they were, they should be…and they are making a heck of a lot more money and benefits than my grandkids in similar service jobs. And yes, before someone even says “but we have to be on a train and be up at all hours” My Navy kid says hi.


----------



## Joe from PA

Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".


----------



## tricia

Joe from PA said:


> Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".



Um, just about every restaurant on the planet does this every day. Part of the core function of management for any food service car is estimating supply needs based on past experience and current reservations. It's not rocket surgery.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Joe from PA said:


> Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".


How do you think Amtrak managed to do this for decades prior to the Anderson downgrades?


----------



## jebr

tricia said:


> Um, just about every restaurant on the planet does this every day. Part of the core function of management for any food service car is estimating supply needs based on past experience and current reservations. It's not rocket surgery.



Not to mention, Amtrak has a couple of distinct advantages:

They know roughly how many people they've sold tickets to, and if someone doesn't have a ticket they aren't going to be buying food in the dining car.
They can limit capacity with reservations - I know the evening meal they require reservations for coach passengers as well so they won't overbook that meal, and they keep a wait list as well for other meals.
Plus, Amtrak doesn't cut off sleeper sales at whatever time they place the order for meals - so someone could buy a last-minute sleeper ticket/upgrade and require meal service anyways. Amtrak can certainly handle having coach passengers in the dining car - and in my opinion should cater to them more. The coach-only at-seat meals seemed like a smart move to better utilize the dining car kitchen without needing additional seating, and gave coach passengers an option to have a reasonably-priced meal on board that was a step above the cafe car food.


----------



## danlb_2000

TheVig said:


> In less than two weeks, we'll be on the Crescent. Almost have myself talked into the microwave version of the french toast. lol.
> 
> As far as communal dining is concerned, we enjoy it. Have met some really cool people, and some head cases too.



I met a couple at lunch once that eventually ended up getting thrown off the train.


----------



## Sidney

danlb_2000 said:


> I met a couple at lunch once that eventually ended up getting thrown off the train.


Many a fork has been broken eating flex French Toast. The flex omelette is no better. I usually stick to the very mediocre Jimmy Dean sandwich and cereal. Breakfast is the worst.


----------



## joelkfla

Sidney said:


> Many a fork has been broken eating flex French Toast.


... and sturdy meatballs.


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> Many a fork has been broken eating flex French Toast. The flex omelette is no better. I usually stick to the very mediocre Jimmy Dean sandwich and cereal. Breakfast is the worst.


I didn’t have the broken fork problem when I had it on the lake shore but it may apply on the crescent. On the Lake Shore the flex meals are actually prepared closer to the manner in which the meals are meant to be prepared in ovens in the viewliner dining car so that may explain why I didn’t get that. On the Crescent I’m guessing they nuke them due to the split cafe/diner setup - which probably is part of what creates the fork breaking.


----------



## jis

Since I usually use a knife to cut things and not a fork, I usually do not have a broken fork problem unless the thing is so solid that I cannot stick a form in it using the pointy end of the thing  Admittedly that has happened at times, but never with the Omelette.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Since I usually use a knife to cut things and not a fork, I usually do not have a broken fork problem unless the thing is so solid that I cannot stick a form in it using the pointy end of the thing  Admittedly that has happened at times, but never with the Omelette.


I was curious how they do the flex meals on the star does the French toast come out like a rock? I suppose even in an oven if overdone that can be the result. Been curious many workers in the diner and are they using oven or microwave given its 5 sleepers.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I was curious how they do the flex meals on the star does the French toast come out like a rock? I suppose even in an oven if overdone that can be the result. Been curious many workers in the diner and are they using oven or microwave given its 5 sleepers.


I don't know. Since I don't much care for French Toast, I have never had it. But the Omelette is quite cuttable, even with the blunt sides of a fork on the Star. I had it a couple fines in the recent past and will again have it next week.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> I don't know. Since I don't much care for French Toast, I have never had it. But the Omelette is quite cuttable, even with the blunt sides of a fork on the Star. I had it a couple fines in the recent past and will again have it next week.


How many staff in the diner? I’ve noticed the lake shore running with an extra LSA who often helps in the diner - was curious if Star was the same.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> How many staff in the diner? I’ve noticed the lake shore running with an extra LSA who often helps in the diner - was curious if Star was the same.


They consistently had two people in the kitchen area. I do not know what their exact titles were. The SS is a long train in its current form, and I think they would find it difficult to serve the customers in 5 Sleepers, which are usually quite full with a single LSA, so my guess is that both of them are assigned to the Diner. 

I know all the SCAs on those runs and none of them were sitting in the Diner kitchen when I was in the Diner, which was for very long periods since on the northbound @pennyk and I and a couple of OTOL folks were sitting there chatting and on the southbound I was traveling with a fellow Florida representative in the RPA Council and while sitting in the Diner er ... I mean Sleeper lounge, we were scheming about what to do in Florida with FDOT and the Governor.


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## ScottR

lordsigma said:


> I didn’t have the broken fork problem when I had it on the lake shore but it may apply on the crescent. On the Lake Shore the flex meals are actually prepared closer to the manner in which the meals are meant to be prepared in ovens in the viewliner dining car so that may explain why I didn’t get that. On the Crescent I’m guessing they nuke them due to the split cafe/diner setup - which probably is part of what creates the fork breaking.


This is a good point. Are the flex meals designed to be microwaved or convection? Convected? Or simply conveyed as spell check wants me to put here? It is an interesting question…I don’t know the answer. 

Like many I suspect we have nuked a few things (an omelet…ok…just not too long). A French toast or a Jimmy Dean…done that in the microwave as well….but we all can agree it’s probably better in the oven….sort of toasted as the name suggests.

But again I honestly don’t know and am curious as to what tools the crew has down there in the various consists….


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## ScottR

jis said:


> Since I usually use a knife to cut things and not a fork, I usually do not have a broken fork problem unless the thing is so solid that I cannot stick a form in it using the pointy end of the thing  Admittedly that has happened at times, but never with the Omelette.


It pretty much describes the meatballs though. I’ll eat em because it’s ”free” but I’ve also considered using them for a few rounds of golf.


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## ScottR

jis said:


> They consistently had two people in the kitchen area. I do not know what their exact titles were. The SS is a long train in its current form, and I think they would find it difficult to serve the customers in 5 Sleepers, which are usually quite full with a single LSA, so my guess is that both of them are assigned to the Diner.
> 
> I know all the SCAs on those runs and none of them were sitting in the Diner kitchen when I was in the Diner, which was for very long periods since on the northbound @pennyk and I and a couple of OTOL folks were sitting there chatting and on the southbound I was traveling with a fellow Florida representative in the RPA Council and while sitting in the Diner er ... I mean Sleeper lounge, we were scheming about what to do in Florida with FDOT and the Governor.


Wow they have five sleepers? I didn’t know Amtrak ran such long trains as I’ve only been on a few of the Western trains most recently…and it was the Texas Eaglet at that. I know…I know…. what we all have to say about that consist and I’ve been riding that train for a while and it makes me mad…or mostly sad As I recall the way it was a few years ago.

im a big railfan, and convinced my 80 year old parents to come out to see me in California from Longview Tx. on the train, as they don‘t like to fly anymore. When the stubby little Eaglet pulled up…it wasn’t well received. But we made amends on the Sunset and the Starlight.

Still, sold out the last four or five times I’ve done it. What an accomplishment Amtrack!


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## Cal

ScottR said:


> Still, sold out the last four or five times I’ve done it. What an accomplishment Amtrack!


Not much of an accomplishment considering the extremely low consist.


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## ScottR

Cal said:


> Not much of an accomplishment considering the extremely low consist.


Yes my point. It’s one of the longest trains, the scenery is miles and miles of Texas….which I like but isn’t everyone’s cup of tea….but man what a slog for us Texas customers. 

anyway to Keep on topic…flex dining is unpleasant, the worst of it seems to be on the Eaglet, the microwaves….maybe need a tune up. The staff is surly, the tracks in Arkansas are jiggly, and the burrito lady was not at El Paso the last time (ok that‘s the Sunset but still)

and I’m still gonna pay for a roomette in August and again in December to go see the family…because it is the most fun way to do it…and with gas prices, hotels etc…not so out of balance.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> I was curious how they do the flex meals on the star does the French toast come out like a rock? I suppose even in an oven if overdone that can be the result. Been curious many workers in the diner and are they using oven or microwave given its 5 sleepers.


I think it's the convection oven, since it's prepared in a genuine VL II diner. I thought it was pretty good. I seem to recall it being a bit chewy, but not hard.


jis said:


> They consistently had two people in the kitchen area. I do not know what their exact titles were. The SS is a long train in its current form, and I think they would find it difficult to serve the customers in 5 Sleepers, which are usually quite full with a single LSA, so my guess is that both of them are assigned to the Diner.


There was just one in October for the 3 sleepers on the Meteor, and he seemed to have a lot of spare time. Maybe more people are eating in the diner now, instead of their rooms.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Joe from PA said:


> Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".



On my 2017 trip on the TE the dinner seating reservations were given out democratically. There were three seatings. 

A conductor made the announcement that all Coach passengers had two options to get a reservation - the first was for the px to walk to the end of the last Coach and meetup with the conductor and get handed a reservation - the second option was - then later the conductor walked the aisle from back to front of train - along the way - announcing the remaining seatings. Then you could get a reservation too - unless they were all taken.

I didn’t know about communal dining until in the dining car. I almost wanted to wait for a single table but now I really miss it. In 2021 I brought a nice dark blue dress jacket to wear in the dining car but it never happen since I was in Coach. Looking forward to my next trip - hopefully with communal dining - in just eight weeks.


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## hlcteacher

Joe from PA said:


> Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".


make believe you rode amtrak in coach "back in the day"...we had at least two meals a day in the dining car (revenue much?) and although sometimes things had run out if we had late reservations, there were plenty of choices....guess they knew how to run a railroad with an emphasis on customer service for ALL the customers, smh


----------



## Rasputin

hlcteacher said:


> make believe you rode amtrak in coach "back in the day"...we had at least two meals a day in the dining car (revenue much?) and although sometimes things had run out if we had late reservations, there were plenty of choices....guess they knew how to run a railroad with an emphasis on customer service for ALL the customers, smh


Yes, take a trip on the Southwest Limited in the summer of 1978. That ex-Santa Fe hi-level dining car and its accommodating crew put out a great variety of very good meals for a large number of passengers without a meltdown in service.


----------



## fdaley

In years past, the Lake Shore Limited served many coach passengers in its diner and managed to do so without running out of food. And the ability to get a full meal while traveling was a reason to choose it over other trains for local travel across upstate New York. Today, it has become the train to avoid for NY state travel because the food situation on board is so bad -- with no food service of any kind for coach passengers between New York and Albany.


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## Steve4031

The comments about broken forks reminds me of a trip I took on the Cardinal with a friend while we were sophomores in high school. I forgot what we ate exactly but it was not that great since it was an amdinette and the food was microwaved. I remember my friend picking up his cinnamon role, looking at it with a curious expression, and then banging it on the table to make a knocking noise. The expression on his face was priceless. He verbally skewered me for extolling the virtues of eating on a moving train.

The other part of that meal experience was the rough trackage in West Virginia. The train moved up, down, up down, and then side to side on the switches with such vigor that my friends drink ended up sloshing out of the cup and onto the table. He was not impressed.


----------



## PeeweeTM

I arrived with train 6 California Zephyr in Chicago yesterday.

Here's the menu. Only sleeping car passengers allowed in the diner.

I was happy enough with the food and service. Chicken was a bit dry-ish, but no other remarks.


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## Dakota 400

Steve4031 said:


> The other part of that meal experience was the rough trackage in West Virginia. The train moved up, down, up down, and then side to side on the switches with such vigor that my friends drink ended up sloshing out of the cup and onto the table. He was not impressed.



Many years ago when C & 0 ran a train from Cincinnati to Washington, my traveling companion and I experienced the same thing. Not long after leaving Cincinnati, we went to the Diner for dinner. First course was soup. The Waiter put the cup of soup with a saucer underneath on the table and about half of the soup slopped out onto the saucer. This was my friend's first train trip, but, he didn't complain. We were both just surprised.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Joe from PA said:


> Make believe you worked for Amtrak. Tell me how you would order meals for 5 cars full of coach passengers if they were able to use the dining car? Suppose you ran out? At least with sleeper passengers you know how many you are dealing with. Then you are only dealing with ordering types of meals. But at least you would not have to tell a sleeping car passenger, "Gee, we ran out of food".


That's not always true!( see many Trips from He'll Reports here on AU!)


----------



## pennyk

As I posted in the Silvers thread, I have just heard from a friend, who is an Amtrak employee, who is friends with Amtrak employees in the Miami crew base, that when the Meteor returns northbound on September 11th, traditional dining will also return. 

Please keep in mind that this is hearsay and not official, but I think it is very good news for my October trip on the Meteor. 
FYI, my friend said it was OK to post here.


----------



## ScottR

danlb_2000 said:


> I met a couple at lunch once that eventually ended up getting thrown off the train.


What happened?


----------



## Sidney

pennyk said:


> As I posted in the Silvers thread, I have just heard from a friend, who is an Amtrak employee, who is friends with Amtrak employees in the Miami crew base, that when the Meteor returns northbound on September 11th, traditional dining will also return.
> 
> Please keep in mind that this is hearsay and not official, but I think it is very good news for my October trip on the Meteor.
> FYI, my friend said it was OK to post here.


Wonder if this is on all the Eastern trains and the Eagle? Hope it's true


----------



## pennyk

Sidney said:


> Wonder if this is on all the Eastern trains and the Eagle? Hope it's true


What I heard is specific to the Silvers. Sorry.


----------



## PaTrainFan

pennyk said:


> What I heard is specific to the Silvers. Sorry.



In time for the Southern snowbird migration. I'm guessing the Capitol remains in purgatory.


----------



## pennyk

PaTrainFan said:


> I'm guessing the Capitol remains in purgatory.


That is what I heard.


----------



## Cal

Rambling Robert said:


> the first was for the px to walk to the end of the last Coach and meetup with the conductor and get handed a reservation - the second option was - then later the conductor walked the aisle from back to front of train - along the way - announcing the remaining seatings. Then you could get a reservation too - unless they were all taken.


I think it was the LSA (Lead Service Attendant), who generally handles the dining car announcements and reservations on trains.


----------



## daybeers

pennyk said:


> That is what Iheard.


LOL what a joke.


----------



## Andreas

Hi everyone,

new here: my first post in this forum except the one introducing myself in the "new members" section (yet I've been reading for a couple of weeks).

I hope it is correct to just make this post here. It is indeed linked to Amtrak dining (its schedules, its realities ... ). 

I am roughly 3 weeks away from a trip to, and through, the U.S. 

A main aim of the trip is ... train travel.

Could you please enlighten me which meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) I can expect given my schedule specified below? I know that there are time slots set by Amtrak, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and I was wondering what passengers boarding or de-training at intermediate stops might expect catering-wise, including in the (of course highly unlikely) event of a train running, err, late. ;-)

I like the dining car atmosphere, so the aim would be to eat in the diner rather than in the cabin. 

Here are the trips I've booked, in sleeper accommodation (roomette that is):

#49 LSL from NYP to Albany. Yes, I know it is crazy to book a roomette for a short afternoon trip, yet this is the only possibility for me to experience a Viewliner roomette. So, the LSL has got a Viewliner Diner if I understand correctly and dinner should be included for sleeper guests. The timeslot for dinner starts at 05:00 PM which would be in time for having dinner before arriving at Albany (where I will de-train). I seem to remember, however, having read that no dining car service will be available before Albany. I do not remember where I have read that. I will be in the New York portion (which has got the VL Diner on its way to Albany) and will be in a sleeper (and thus entitled to have dinner, I think.) How would you assess the chances of getting dinner in the Viewliner Diner before arriving at Albany? I understand there is flex dining one this train, steamed, convected, micro-waved or whatever. The advantage is: it would be ready any time and just requires being warmed up. The question is whether the dining car staff will serve dinner before the train arrives at Albany.

#3 SWC form Flagstaff to LAX (hoping that service on the SWC, currently interrupted because of wildfires, will be restored by then). Scheduled departure time from FLG, shortly before 09:00 PM, is just within the dinner time slot. However, #3 is almost always late at FLG. Should I forget about having dinner on the SWC that evening?

#5 from DEN to its Californian terminus. Will I get breakfast also on the first day, the scheduled departure time of the CZ from DEN being 08:05 AM? The aim would be to be seated in the diner right at departure since I wanted to have my breakfast finished before the train starts its scenic climb towards the continental divide. Between Big Ten Curve and the tunnel district I would love to take picture through the rear window of the last car (that being a Viewliner coach and I hope I would be allowed to stand there taking pictures ...). I know there is a lounge car with panorama windows too, yet this doesn't give me track view.

#50 Cardinal from Manassas to Baltimore is mentioned last here, although it is planned to be the first of all legs (after landing on a transatlantic flight at Washington Dulles Airport). I will travel in coach class on #50, yet I understand there is an (Amfleet ?) cafe car in the consist. Can I, as a coach passenger, purchase drinks and food at the cafe car, and enjoy them in this very car before returning to my coach seat? 

Many thanks, best regards from Europe and again hello!

Andreas


----------



## PaunchyPirate

Sorry to steer the current direction of this thread, but it does seem to be a catch all thread about Amtrak dining. I'll be taking my first Amtrak long distance trip in June on the California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, and Empire Builder. I have a roomette for all legs so my meals are included and it looks like that includes a beverage at the meal. Does it include any additional FREE beverages that I can consume in my roomette during the trip? Water? Diet Coke? Or am I limited to what I buy in the snack bar? I'm not a coffee drinker.

*NOTE - I will confess to a slight Diet Coke addiction.


----------



## fdaley

Andreas said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> new here: my first post in this forum except the one introducing myself in the "new members" section (yet I've been reading for a couple of weeks).
> 
> I hope it is correct to just make this post here. It is indeed linked to Amtrak dining (its schedules, its realities ... ).
> 
> I am roughly 3 weeks away from a trip to, and through, the U.S.
> 
> A main aim of the trip is ... train travel.
> 
> Could you please enlighten me which meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) I can expect given my schedule specified below? I know that there are time slots set by Amtrak, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and I was wondering what passengers boarding or de-training at intermediate stops might expect catering-wise, including in the (of course highly unlikely) event of a train running, err, late. ;-)
> 
> I like the dining car atmosphere, so the aim would be to eat in the diner rather than in the cabin.
> 
> Here are the trips I've booked, in sleeper accommodation (roomette that is):
> 
> #49 LSL from NYP to Albany. Yes, I know it is crazy to book a roomette for a short afternoon trip, yet this is the only possibility for me to experience a Viewliner roomette. So, the LSL has got a Viewliner Diner if I understand correctly and dinner should be included for sleeper guests. The timeslot for dinner starts at 05:00 PM which would be in time for having dinner before arriving at Albany (where I will de-train). I seem to remember, however, having read that no dining car service will be available before Albany. I do not remember where I have read that. I will be in the New York portion (which has got the VL Diner on its way to Albany) and will be in a sleeper (and thus entitled to have dinner, I think.) How would you assess the chances of getting dinner in the Viewliner Diner before arriving at Albany? I understand there is flex dining one this train, steamed, convected, micro-waved or whatever. The advantage is: it would be ready any time and just requires being warmed up. The question is whether the dining car staff will serve dinner before the train arrives at Albany.
> 
> #3 SWC form Flagstaff to LAX (hoping that service on the SWC, currently interrupted because of wildfires, will be restored by then). Scheduled departure time from FLG, shortly before 09:00 PM, is just within the dinner time slot. However, #3 is almost always late at FLG. Should I forget about having dinner on the SWC that evening?
> 
> #5 from DEN to its Californian terminus. Will I get breakfast also on the first day, the scheduled departure time of the CZ from DEN being 08:05 AM? The aim would be to be seated in the diner right at departure since I wanted to have my breakfast finished before the train starts its scenic climb towards the continental divide. Between Big Ten Curve and the tunnel district I would love to take picture through the rear window of the last car (that being a Viewliner coach and I hope I would be allowed to stand there taking pictures ...). I know there is a lounge car with panorama windows too, yet this doesn't give me track view.
> 
> #50 Cardinal from Manassas to Baltimore is mentioned last here, although it is planned to be the first of all legs (after landing on a transatlantic flight at Washington Dulles Airport). I will travel in coach class on #50, yet I understand there is an (Amfleet ?) cafe car in the consist. Can I, as a coach passenger, purchase drinks and food at the cafe car, and enjoy them in this very car before returning to my coach seat?
> 
> Many thanks, best regards from Europe and again hello!
> 
> Andreas



Welcome, and I hope you enjoy your trip. I'll take the first two questions and leave the rest to others who have more recent experience with those trains.

On the Lake Shore Limited, if you have a sleeper room, you should be offered dinner service before Albany, probably about 5 p.m. It will be "flex dining," which means a prefab meal presented in its freezer tub, which you can opt to consume at a bare table in the dining car -- or you can take it back to your room. (The reference you may have seen to no food service before Albany likely was discussing coach passengers, as there is no food car other than the diner, which is open only to sleeper passengers, until west of Albany.)

From Flagstaff to Los Angeles, I would plan on having dinner before you board at Flagstaff. On the plus side, the diner normally opens for breakfast quite early on the approach to LA.


----------



## fdaley

PaunchyPirate said:


> Sorry to steer the current direction of this thread, but it does seem to be a catch all thread about Amtrak dining. I'll be taking my first Amtrak long distance trip in June on the California Zephyr, Coast Starlight, and Empire Builder. I have a roomette for all legs so my meals are included and it looks like that includes a beverage at the meal. Does it include any additional FREE beverages that I can consume in my roomette during the trip? Water? Diet Coke? Or am I limited to what I buy in the snack bar? I'm not a coffee drinker.
> 
> *NOTE - I will confess to a slight Diet Coke addiction.



The sleeper rooms normally are stocked with bottled water, and the car attendant should be able to provide more if you run out. I don't know if the pandemic has affected this, but pre-pandemic there normally was orange juice and ice available at the coffee station in each sleeping car. 

Your trip sounds excellent -- three of the most scenic routes, and you're taking them in the right order to see the best scenery in daylight. Enjoy!


----------



## joelkfla

I'm a bit muddled, too, on the issue of non-alcoholic drinks for sleeper passengers. 

I've seen trip reports saying we get them free for the duration of the trip, not just at mealtimes. Is that accurate? Does it apply to both flex & traditional dining? Does one just go to the diner and ask for it? Or to the cafe/lounge?


----------



## lordsigma

pennyk said:


> As I posted in the Silvers thread, I have just heard from a friend, who is an Amtrak employee, who is friends with Amtrak employees in the Miami crew base, that when the Meteor returns northbound on September 11th, traditional dining will also return.
> 
> Please keep in mind that this is hearsay and not official, but I think it is very good news for my October trip on the Meteor.
> FYI, my friend said it was OK to post here.


Penny did they say if both the Star and Meteor will get it? If so that will be a great treat for me as I have an October trip also! Though just meteor would too as my return north is on the meteor


----------



## pennyk

lordsigma said:


> Penny dod they say if both the Star and Meteor will get it? If so that will be a great treat for me as I have an October trip also! Though just meteor would too as my return north is on the meteor


I re-read the message and my friend said both trains, so, I am assuming both the Star and Meteor will have traditional dining northbound on 9/11 and southbound on 9/13. Hopefully.


----------



## Cal

pennyk said:


> I re-read the message and my friend said both trains, so, I am assuming both the Star and Meteor will have traditional dining northbound on 9/11 and southbound on 9/13. Hopefully.


What do you (and others) think the likelihood of all eastern trains (or at least some) getting it when at the same time as well?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> What do you (and others) think the likelihood of all eastern trains (or at least some) getting it when at the same time as well?


The other one that might get it at that time is the Lake Shore. Just my WAG based on nothing I might add. 

That just leaves the Crescent which will allegedly get its Diner back in the same timeframe. There are enough Diner cars available for the Cardinal to get a Diner too but I suspect that requires taking a few out of the mothball bank, which won;t happen this year for sure, and probably not even in five years.


----------



## lordsigma

And if the Lake Shore gets back traditional dining it will be the first time it has had full service dining since 2016 when it lost its Heritage dining car.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> The other one that might get it at that time is the Lake Shore. Just my WAG based on nothing I might add.
> 
> That just leaves the Crescent which will allegedly get its Diner back in the same timeframe.


What abut the Capitol Limited? I know they have the CCC, I mean when will it get traditional dining?


----------



## PVD

fdaley said:


> Welcome, and I hope you enjoy your trip. I'll take the first two questions and leave the rest to others who have more recent experience with those trains.
> 
> On the Lake Shore Limited, if you have a sleeper room, you should be offered dinner service before Albany, probably about 5 p.m. It will be "flex dining," which means a prefab meal presented in its freezer tub, which you can opt to consume at a bare table in the dining car -- or you can take it back to your room. (The reference you may have seen to no food service before Albany likely was discussing coach passengers, as there is no food car other than the diner, which is open only to sleeper passengers, until west of Albany.)
> 
> From Flagstaff to Los Angeles, I would plan on having dinner before you board at Flagstaff. On the plus side, the diner normally opens for breakfast quite early on the approach to LA.


Leaving from NYP as a sleeper passenger on the Lake you could certainly avail yourself of pre trip fare at the new lounge, most people find the food there pretty good....probably not a problem to take some with you as well..


----------



## lordsigma

MARC Rider said:


> What abut the Capitol Limited? I know they have the CCC, I mean when will it get traditional dining?


Supposedly final decisions about which routes will get what food service format and which will have checked baggage are being made now. Getting non revenue cars out of mothballs will be based on those decisions. For the Capitol limited and eagle to get back traditional dining likely means needing to get more sightseers out of mothballs. To go back to full traditional dining they’d need the Sightseer car for a cafe. I suspect the trains currently running with only one food service car would be the last to get anything as they’ll need to get cars out of storage. I’m also somewhat skeptical that they will go with a full fledged traditional approach everywhere - I could see them trying something new where maybe they bring back a chef but try to do something that allows just one food car. It’s hard to picture both a diner and lounge on the Cardinal for instance. We shall see though.


----------



## lordsigma

Further bringing back full service food to the silvers is likely a decision that had already be made - hence the hiring of chefs. Correct me if I’m wrong but prior to flex dining the VL2 diners operated with a staff of 3 right? 1 chef 1 LSA-Diner and one train attendent server. There have been no food specialists posted at Miami so this seems to be correct. I know the times I rode both the crescent and meteor with a VL2 diner it was 3 crew members.


----------



## danlb_2000

ScottR said:


> What happened?



We had lunch with them on the first leg of the trip, he was reasonably pleasant, but her, not so much, and was already giving some of the crew a hard time. On the next leg of the trip they were at dinner at the table next to us, clearly intoxicated and she was really giving the crew a hard time about their room and the food. Eventually the conductor came over and told them if they kept it up they would be put off the train. Next morning at breakfast we heard from other passengers, everyone knew about these people by that time, that they had been kicked off the train during the night. Didn't get the exact details but from what I gather they were insisting on smoking on the train and then got into an altercation with one of the crew.


----------



## MARC Rider

lordsigma said:


> For the Capitol limited and eagle to get back traditional dining likely means needing to get more sightseers out of mothballs. To go back to full traditional dining they’d need the Sightseer car for a cafe.


Actually, not true, at least from past experience. I have ridden the Capitol Limited some time before Flex dining was even a concept, they even had a Sightseer Lounge, but they elected to use the CCC as both the cafe car and the dining car. And it was traditional dining (even the coach passengers were served.)


----------



## lordsigma

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, not true, at least from past experience. I have ridden the Capitol Limited some time before Flex dining was even a concept, they even had a Sightseer Lounge, but they elected to use the CCC as both the cafe car and the dining car. And it was traditional dining (even the coach passengers were served.)


That’s Good to know - I stand corrected. Another unexplained Thing is the chef jobs in Charlotte. It doesn’t seem like there are enough active VL2 diners to bring back traditional dining on the meteor, Star, lake shore, and crescent all at once unless they plan to overhaul a few stored diners. Will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> Another unexplained Thing is the chef jobs in Charlotte.


Now introducing dining cars on the Carolinian! 



danlb_2000 said:


> We had lunch with them on the first leg of the trip, he was reasonably pleasant, but her, not so much, and was already giving some of the crew a hard time. On the next leg of the trip they were at dinner at the table next to us, clearly intoxicated and she was really giving the crew a hard time about their room and the food. Eventually the conductor came over and told them if they kept it up they would be put off the train. Next morning at breakfast we heard from other passengers, everyone knew about these people by that time, that they had been kicked off the train during the night. Didn't get the exact details but from what I gather they were insisting on smoking on the train and then got into an altercation with one of the crew.


I'm glad they were kicked off.


----------



## TheVig

Cal said:


> Now introducing dining cars on the Carolinian!



Crescent yes, but middle earth will probably freeze over before the Carolinian ever sees traditional dining.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> What abut the Capitol Limited? I know they have the CCC, I mean when will it get traditional dining?


And the other Orphan LD Trains, the Texas Eaglette and the CONO??


----------



## Rambling Robert

jis said:


> The other one that might get it at that time is the Lake Shore. Just my WAG based on nothing I might add.
> 
> That just leaves the Crescent which will allegedly get its Diner back in the same timeframe. There are enough Diner cars available for the Cardinal to get a Diner too but I suspect that requires taking a few out of the mothball bank, which won;t happen this year for sure, and probably not even in five years.


Prolly my MOST memorable Amtrak experience was having lunch on the dining car on the LSL in December 2017. I had Chicken Fricassee and this classic dish was perfect ... just like my Mom’s. Our waiter presented the food in such a way to make it even more appetizing. I honestly felt like I was dining in a fancy Manhattan restaurant.

I shared the table with a woman who traveled to Chicago/NYC to visit her daughter several times a year. She was amused of my enjoyment of my lunch - especially she herself being a mom. Also the waiter knew her from past trips - always in a sleeper. It didn’t matter that I was only in Coach.


----------



## TheCrescent

On the southbound Crescent, the “cafe-lounge” opens around 4pm, and then is closed from about 5pm to about 7:30pm so that meals can be prepared for sleeping car passengers.

I was in a sleeping car, so I got my food, but it’s really surprising that coach passengers don’t have any food service around a normal dinner time. I’d think that an announcement could be made, during the layover in Washington, that getting off and getting food in the station is allowed, but the only announcement was “if you want to stretch your legs you may get off.”


----------



## cassie225

Oh please let the Crescent get traditional back this year. I’m praying lol


----------



## TheCrescent

cassie225 said:


> Oh please let the Crescent get traditional back this year. I’m praying lol



I thought that in the pre-Amtrak days, railroads got in hot water for having long-distance trains without food service. But this is what Amtrak is doing. Coach passengers can’t even buy a bottle of water around dinner time.

The Crescent could be a viable travel option between two major metros: Washington and Atlanta. But it’s an unpleasant joke of a train.


----------



## Sidney

The Silvers,Crescent and the Texas Eagle are the longest trains time wise.I would imagine these would be the first trains to reinstate traditional dining. Of course,this makes too much sense.


----------



## billosborn

Rambling Robert said:


> Prolly my MOST memorable Amtrak experience was having lunch on the dining car on the LSL in December 2017. I had Chicken Fricassee and this classic dish was perfect ... just like my Mom’s. Our waiter presented the food in such a way to make it even more appetizing. I honestly felt like I was dining in a fancy Manhattan restaurant.
> 
> I shared the table with a woman who traveled to Chicago/NYC to visit her daughter several times a year. She was amused of my enjoyment of my lunch - especially she herself being a mom. Also the waiter knew her from past trips - always in a sleeper. It didn’t matter that I was only in Coach.


 I often traveled in Coach when the dining car was open for coach passengers, and I often was seated with folks who were in sleepers. Not once did I ever encounter a sleeper passenger who looked down their nose because I was in coach. On the contrary, they seemed like some of the nicest folk you'd ever want to meet. For me those were the best times on the train, you get to swap stories and meet some very interesting folk.


----------



## Cal

TheVig said:


> Crescent yes, but middle earth will probably freeze over before the Carolinian ever sees traditional dining.


Yeah, I was being sarcastic, although why they would be hiring chef's in Charlotte is beyond me.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> The Silvers,Crescent and the Texas Eagle are the longest trains time wise.I would imagine these would be the first trains to reinstate traditional dining. Of course,this makes too much sense.


LSL will almost definitely get it at the same time or before the Crescent and Eagle. LSL is generally favored AFAICT.


----------



## TheVig

Cal said:


> Yeah, I was being sarcastic, although why they would be hiring chef's in Charlotte is beyond me.



I’m not sure either. It’s gotta be for the Crescent, but why not base them out of NOL or NYP? It’s a bit of a stretch, but maybe they are trying to pick up some fresh out of culinary school chefs from Johnson & Wales here in Charlotte.


----------



## OBS

Cal said:


> Yeah, I was being sarcastic, although why they would be hiring chef's in Charlotte is beyond me.


It is most likely a typo by the HR dept.


----------



## OBS

TheCrescent said:


> On the southbound Crescent, the “cafe-lounge” opens around 4pm, and then is closed from about 5pm to about 7:30pm so that meals can be prepared for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> I was in a sleeping car, so I got my food, but it’s really surprising that coach passengers don’t have any food service around a normal dinner time. I’d think that an announcement could be made, during the layover in Washington, that getting off and getting food in the station is allowed, but the only announcement was “if you want to stretch your legs you may get off.”


Making an announcement to get off and get food in Was will never happen. Even without the announcement there are enough people that get off to get food and then get lost/delayed/confused only to come back and find their train has left without them!


----------



## Pal2Pluto

On our upcoming trip, we will be in coach, Business (on Coast Starlight) and in a roomette. I understand in coach, our dining option is only the cafe. But in Business, I believe I read we have the option of dining in the dining car for an upcharge? And then of course, in a roomette, it's included. So how does the dining car know who is able to eat there? Do they check the ticket on my phone? Do we get something like a voucher in our roomette? 

Also, if we upgrade to a last minute room from coach, how do they get notified that we are now able to eat in the dining car?

just curious....... Thanks!


----------



## lordsigma

Yeah it has to be something for the Crescent. There have also been LSA jobs posted at Charlotte as well. Perhaps if dining is coming back they plan to crew it at the midway point out of Charlotte - maybe the idea is to avoid them needing roomettes for the extra crew a full diner would involve.. Lake Shore could very well be getting it as well and there have certainly been chef jobs in Chicago posted but obviously that one is harder to track as Chicago is the base for other LD trains that currently have dinng - was the diner crew Chicago or New York based when they had traditional dining?


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

I am hoping that someday this poster of the Lake Shore Limited (which I have hanging in my train room) may actually reflect reality.


----------



## cassie225

All I’m saying is when chefs for Crescent were based out of NO the food was awesome, nobody cooks like NO people, can’t remember the name of the place in NO, but a friend took me to a place for fried chicken, pre-Covid, the place looked like the worse toilet I ever saw, and don’t let me tell u about the actual toilet, lol, best fried chicken I ever tasted, I ate outside .lol Most people from NO really can cook. Im an implant


----------



## TheCrescent

TheVig said:


> I’m not sure either. It’s gotta be for the Crescent, but why not base them out of NOL or NYP? It’s a bit of a stretch, but maybe they are trying to pick up some fresh out of culinary school chefs from Johnson & Wales here in Charlotte.



I don’t know, but the Crescent has some crew changing at (I think) Charlottesville.


----------



## fdaley

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> View attachment 28192
> 
> I am hoping that someday this poster of the Lake Shore Limited (which I have hanging in my train room) may actually reflect reality.



They still have this poster hanging in the Rensselaer station. It's been false advertising for nearly four years, but yes, I hope it becomes accurate someday soon.


----------



## tricia

Pal2Pluto said:


> On our upcoming trip, we will be in coach, Business (on Coast Starlight) and in a roomette. I understand in coach, our dining option is only the cafe. But in Business, I believe I read we have the option of dining in the dining car for an upcharge? And then of course, in a roomette, it's included. So how does the dining car know who is able to eat there? Do they check the ticket on my phone? Do we get something like a voucher in our roomette?
> 
> Also, if we upgrade to a last minute room from coach, how do they get notified that we are now able to eat in the dining car?
> 
> just curious....... Thanks!



With few exceptions, LD trains with dining cars are situated so that sleeping cars are on one end, and coach passengers approach from the other end. When you walk in from the dining car end, the staff will assume you're a sleeping car passenger. When the staff member takes your meal order, you'll be asked what your car and room number are.


----------



## fdaley

cassie225 said:


> All I’m saying is when chefs for Crescent were based out of NO the food was awesome, nobody cooks like NO people, can’t remember the name of the place in NO, but a friend took me to a place for fried chicken, pre-Covid, the place looked like the worse toilet I ever saw, and don’t let me tell u about the actual toilet, lol, best fried chicken I ever tasted, I ate outside .lol Most people from NO really can cook. Im an implant



It really is true. On our last big trip, in early 2019 before Amtrak killed dining service on the Crescent and other eastern trains, green beans were the vegetable served with every dinner entree. We had the same green beans at every dinner from Seattle to Los Angeles to New Orleans to Virginia. They were kind of raw and rubbery on every train until the Crescent, when finally, they were tender and delicious. I had a lot of particularly good meals on that train over the years, even if it was supposedly the same stuff served on every other train. When the roast half chicken was a regular dinner offering, it always seemed better on the Crescent.


----------



## trimetbusfan

lordsigma said:


> That’s Good to know - I stand corrected. Another unexplained Thing is the chef jobs in Charlotte. It doesn’t seem like there are enough active VL2 diners to bring back traditional dining on the meteor, Star, lake shore, and crescent all at once unless they plan to overhaul a few stored diners. Will be interesting to see what happens.


Remember that Amtrak owns 25(!!) VL2 dining cars. I’m sure many are mothballed, but there is still a huge potential for them.


----------



## daybeers

tricia said:


> When the staff member takes your meal order, you'll be asked what your car and room number are.


I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.


----------



## trimetbusfan

daybeers said:


> I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.


In my several travels I have taken after Traditional Dining was reinstated, I have not once been asked my car/room number when ordering meals. I’m not sure if something has changed there, but I just wanted to point it out.


----------



## fdaley

trimetbusfan said:


> In my several travels I have taken after Traditional Dining was reinstated, I have not once been asked my car/room number when ordering meals. I’m not sure if something has changed there, but I just wanted to point it out.



I wonder if this has something to do with the fact that coach passengers are no longer being served. Pre-pandemic, the car and room number were a way a verifying that you were in a sleeper, and for everyone else the order would result in a billable total. Now, except for the BC car on the Coast Starlight, where the policy seems a bit muddled, dining car access is entirely restricted to sleeper passengers, so there's not really a need to track which passengers came from where.


----------



## trimetbusfan

fdaley said:


> I wonder if this has something to do with the fact that coach passengers are no longer being served. Pre-pandemic, the car and room number were a way a verifying that you were in a sleeper, and for everyone else the order would result in a billable total. Now, except for the BC car on the Coast Starlight, where the policy seems a bit muddled, dining car access is entirely restricted to sleeper passengers, so there's not really a need to track which passengers came from where.


I believe there is a separate forum about this (either on AU or Facebook) talking about this. I do not have the time to track that down right now.


----------



## jis

fdaley said:


> I wonder if this has something to do with the fact that coach passengers are no longer being served. Pre-pandemic, the car and room number were a way a verifying that you were in a sleeper, and for everyone else the order would result in a billable total. Now, except for the BC car on the Coast Starlight, where the policy seems a bit muddled, dining car access is entirely restricted to sleeper passengers, so there's not really a need to track which passengers came from where.


More than likely that is the case.

BTW each time I traveled by the Super Star recently, the SCA came by asking whether I'd be eating in my room or in the Diner, and whenever I selected Diner they gave me a slp with the car number, room number and seating time. Usually when I get to the Diner I present that slip at the counter and get my meal which has always been ready for pickup when I got there at the appointed time. So there is nothing to remember except to have the reservation slip and the time when to show up.


----------



## zephyr17

Pal2Pluto said:


> On our upcoming trip, we will be in coach, Business (on Coast Starlight) and in a roomette. I understand in coach, our dining option is only the cafe. But in Business, I believe I read we have the option of dining in the dining car for an upcharge? And then of course, in a roomette, it's included. So how does the dining car know who is able to eat there? Do they check the ticket on my phone? Do we get something like a voucher in our roomette?
> 
> Also, if we upgrade to a last minute room from coach, how do they get notified that we are now able to eat in the dining car?
> 
> just curious....... Thanks!


In Business on the Starlight you do have the option of the dining car, somewhat subject to availability since sleeper passengers have priority.

It is a fixed price, $20 breakfast, $25 lunch, $45 dinner (which includes appetizer, dessert and one alcoholic beverage).


----------



## zephyr17

daybeers said:


> I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.


Well, it has been that way ever since Amtrak started including meals in the sleeper fares in the mid 1980s.

I have never had a problem remembering my accommodation, personally. I do have to think about it for a second on long trips, though...

"Hmm, 30 car room 2, no that was the Chief, now I'm 31 room 5."


----------



## TheCrescent

daybeers said:


> I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.


I have shown my ticket in the cafe car and that sufficed.

Recently all meals have been delivered to my room. Are sleeping passengers allowed to go to the cafe car? On the Crescent, I’ve been lectured by the staff when I went to the cafe car. But I also got lectured (a while ago) when I asked for room service. So I don’t know what the rules are- other than that I dread dealing with Amtrak cafe car staff.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> Well, it has been that way ever since Amtrak started including meals in the sleeper fares in the mid 1980s.


Yeah, I was thinking exactly that. Nothing to do with Center of Excellence.


> I have never had a problem remembering my accommodation, personally. I do have to think about it for a second on long trips, though...


Likewise. Besides I always keep a copy of my e-ticket in my pocket. Who knows when I get off at a smoke stop and they start checking tickets before letting you on or you get accosted by some over zealous LEO? Keep all bases covered is my motto.


----------



## zephyr17

Yeah, I keep my boarding pass/eticket in my pocket at all times onboard, too.


----------



## zephyr17

TheCrescent said:


> I have shown my ticket in the cafe car and that sufficed.
> 
> Recently all meals have been delivered to my room. Are sleeping passengers allowed to go to the cafe car? On the Crescent, I’ve been lectured by the staff when I went to the cafe car. But I also got lectured (a while ago) when I asked for room service. So I don’t know what the rules are- other than that I dread dealing with Amtrak cafe car staff.


While there are grumpy OBS staff all over, I have noticed that the staff on the Eastern LD trains are generally less service oriented, often surly, and even more prone to making up their own "rules" than their western counterparts.


----------



## Dakota 400

lordsigma said:


> Perhaps if dining is coming back they plan to crew it at the midway point out of Charlotte - maybe the idea is to avoid them needing roomettes for the extra crew a full diner would involve.



Your idea makes sense to me. Looking at the Crescent's schedule, having an exchange of dining car crew at Charlotte. A Charlotte-NYP team; a Charlotte-New Orleans team. There would still need to be a dorm car available for the teams because of the long down times between meal services.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> View attachment 28192
> 
> I am hoping that someday this poster of the Lake Shore Limited (which I have hanging in my train room) may actually reflect reality.


Until it gets superliners it won't be.


----------



## Cal

daybeers said:


> I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.


How do you expect someone to remember which room they're in when they go back if they don't know the room number? I get why pax might not remember the car, but the room number is totally reasonable. 


OBS said:


> Making an announcement to get off and get food in Was will never happen. Even without the announcement there are enough people that get off to get food and then get lost/delayed/confused only to come back and find their train has left without them!


On the SWC some staff members make an announcement about the little grocery store by the station in ABQ, and tell passengers they can get something from there. Last time I was on #4, I saw the LSA come back with groceries as well. (I wonder what would happen if the LSA somehow couldn't make it back for whatever reason, it's not like they are instrumental in the departure of the train, the T&E staff may not know). 


Pal2Pluto said:


> On our upcoming trip, we will be in coach, Business (on Coast Starlight) and in a roomette. I understand in coach, our dining option is only the cafe. But in Business, I believe I read we have the option of dining in the dining car for an upcharge? And then of course, in a roomette, it's included. So how does the dining car know who is able to eat there? Do they check the ticket on my phone? Do we get something like a voucher in our roomette?
> 
> Also, if we upgrade to a last minute room from coach, how do they get notified that we are now able to eat in the dining car?
> 
> just curious....... Thanks!


Before the meal, at the same time that reservations are taking for sleeping car passengers, the LSA will walk through the BC car to ask for reservations there. When they do they also take your credit card to charge for the meal. So by the time you enter in the diner, you already have paid for the meal.

If you upgrade last minute they don't get notified, they will pass you when you're in your new seat and take your reservation, same as normal.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

TheCrescent said:


> Are sleeping passengers allowed to go to the cafe car?


I never had a problem going to the cafe car as a sleeper passenger. We often go to get some wine to have as a before dinner drink in our room.



Cal said:


> Until it [LSL] gets superliners it won't be [have traditional dining].


LSL will never get Superliners for reasons that have been hashed out on one of the threads here. I don't see why they couldn't do traditional dining from a Viewliner diner.


----------



## fdaley

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I never had a problem going to the cafe car as a sleeper passenger. We often go to get some wine to have as a before dinner drink in our room.
> 
> 
> LSL will never get Superliners for reasons that have been hashed out on one of the threads here. I don't see why they couldn't do traditional dining from a Viewliner diner.



I think Cal was referring to the fact that the graphic at the bottom of that Lake Shore Limited poster, which I never looked at that closely before, appears to show a Superliner train streaking along, with upper-level windows and lower-level doors illuminated.

In any case, I would settle for the main upper image of the poster -- people dining at a table with a tablecloth -- becoming a reality on the Lake Shore again. And that could, as you say, be done in one of the Viewliner diners that were designed and built to provide such service but were instead used to serve boxed meals at bare tables from the moment they were put into the LSL consist.


----------



## Sidney

The viewliners have those elegant dining cars that are totally wasted with flexible "dining". Traditional dining can't return soon enough.


----------



## Steve4031

daybeers said:


> I've always thought this was the most ridiculous concept. Why would a regular passenger remember either of these things? Can't they just use the name? Either way, whenever I've been in a sleeper and didn't remember the car number off the top of my head, the server got absurdly annoyed and sighed. Center of Excellence strikes again.



I experienced this on the Zephyr last summer. The guy at my table did not remember his car but remembered his room number. The server was snippy and rude and stated the chef would be mad if this information was not correct. I helped him remember his car number and told him it was 632. Then the grumpy waitress stated, so that's is room 8 car 532. I said, "no ma'am, I think you mean room 8 car 632. This is 6 and we are now eastbound." She looked at me. I said, "Well I am sure the chef would be mad at you if you wrote the wrong train number on the ticket. And I did not want you to get in trouble." She smiled. Ended up providing decent service. The other guy was only going to Reno. It was his first train ride and he was mad and did not tip her. He noticed she was nicer to me than to him.


----------



## Amtrak709

Sidney: I concur with your comment. As a former regular commuter ATN-WAS-ATN on the Crescent, I barely got to experience the new Viewliner diners before flexible dining and COVID rendered them nearly useless. Even though Floridians ejected John Mica from office in 2016, I am afraid it may be some time before the return to real "railroad" dining.


----------



## TheCrescent

What I also can’t figure out: since the Amfleet cafe cars are depressing (and old), if there’s going to be only one car with food, why not use a Viewliner diner, even modified a bit?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> It really is true. On our last big trip, in early 2019 before Amtrak killed dining service on the Crescent and other eastern trains, green beans were the vegetable served with every dinner entree. We had the same green beans at every dinner from Seattle to Los Angeles to New Orleans to Virginia. They were kind of raw and rubbery on every train until the Crescent, when finally, they were tender and delicious. I had a lot of particularly good meals on that train over the years, even if it was supposedly the same stuff served on every other train. When the roast half chicken was a regular dinner offering, it always seemed better on the Crescent.


I would imagine that Amtrak has hundreds of large cans of Dinty Moore Stew and green beans stored in a massive warehouse somewhere. Very durable long lasting when sealed... and absolutely tasteless.

BTW those tender and delicious green beans that were served on the Crescent were fresh and gently cooked... what a difference 'fresh' makes!


----------



## Mailliw

zephyr17 said:


> Well, it has been that way ever since Amtrak started including meals in the sleeper fares in the mid 1980s.
> 
> I have never had a problem remembering my accommodation, personally. I do have to think about it for a second on long trips, though...
> 
> "Hmm, 30 car room 2, no that was the Chief, now I'm 31 room 5."


This is also how it works in any hotel restaurant that let's you charge to your room. The only difference is the car number is separate, but it's basically the same as remembering a floor number. Also there's usually only 1 or 2 sleepers, rarely more than 3.


----------



## daybeers

Steve4031 said:


> The server was snippy and rude and stated the chef would be mad if this information was not correct. I helped him remember his car number and told him it was 632. Then the grumpy waitress stated, so that's is room 8 car 532


Yes this is exactly the kind of ridiculous service I'm talking about.


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## NYP2NFL01

This is a dining-related question. Sleeper car passengers are entitled to complimentary soft drinks throughout their journey, correct? Where do you go to get them? On my last trip I went to the Cafe Car to get a cup of coffee because the SCA never made any coffee the entire trip. The attendant wanted to charge me. When I informed him I was a sleeping car passenger, he goes on a rant about how "nothing is free"! Then, he recanted and let me go with the coffee back to my room. I shudder to think what he would have said if I asked for a Coke!


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## Mailliw

I would've just told him it's not free, it's part of what I _paid for_ with my sleeper fare.


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## 20th Century Rider

NYP2NFL01 said:


> This is a dining-related question. Sleeper car passengers are entitled to complimentary soft drinks throughout their journey, correct? Where do you go to get them? On my last trip I went to the Cafe Car to get a cup of coffee because the SCA never made any coffee the entire trip. The attendant wanted to charge me. When I informed him I was a sleeping car passenger, he goes on a rant about how "nothing is free"! Then, he recanted and let me go with the coffee back to my room. I shudder to think what he would have said if I asked for a Coke!


Did you request coffee from the SCA? He should have made the coffee every morning... that level of service is disappointing. Certainly do contact customer service regarding paid services not given... you may get a small voucher to apply towards future travel.

As a contingency I always travel as self sufficiently as possible... have a small hot pot and powdered coffee which can be made in the sleeper accommodation. Also have small packets of peanut butter and jam and crackers... and Wyler's drink mix to put into the water bottles. 

It is Amtrak policy for the cafe car to provide free ice and hot water to any passenger requesting it... and as a sleeper passenger you are entitled to sufficient bottled water.

As I write this I am struggling with reservations to get any sleeper accommodations on a trip EUG - CHI. It is no longer a quest for low bucket... just space... most of which is at available at the highest bucket only.

OK... time elapsed. This is what I was able to get for mid October... EUG EMY CHI LAX EUG in H rooms for $2550. All but two in high buckets. Oh well... will take what I can get... these are hard times.


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## NYP2NFL01

I cut our SCA some slack as this was the Silver Star (pre "Super Star" consist), and he was the only SCA serving both sleeper cars. Plus, he was nuking the Flex meals in the dining car. There was plenty of bottled water and we took full advantage of that. But, if I wanted a soda for instance, I would think the cafe car is the place to go, since the dining car is not always open for service. I'm on 91 May 1 from NYP, so I'll ask my SCA and see what they say. I'll report the answer here, so stay tuned!


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## pennyk

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I cut our SCA some slack as this was the Silver Star (pre "Super Star" consist), and he was the only SCA serving both sleeper cars. Plus, he was nuking the Flex meals in the dining car. There was plenty of bottled water and we took full advantage of that. But, if I wanted a soda for instance, I would think the cafe car is the place to go, since the dining car is not always open for service. I'm on 91 May 1 from NYP, so I'll ask my SCA and see what they say. I'll report the answer here, so stay tuned!


When traveling on the Silvers in recent times, I have never had any problems getting my "free" non-alcoholic beverage from the sleeper lounge/dining car.


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## 20th Century Rider

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I cut our SCA some slack as this was the Silver Star (pre "Super Star" consist), and he was the only SCA serving both sleeper cars. Plus, he was nuking the Flex meals in the dining car. There was plenty of bottled water and we took full advantage of that. But, if I wanted a soda for instance, I would think the cafe car is the place to go, since the dining car is not always open for service. I'm on 91 May 1 from NYP, so I'll ask my SCA and see what they say. I'll report the answer here, so stay tuned!


Understanding the staffing shortages and importance of cutting some slack... but how hard is it for the cafe attendant to give you that soda if you show him your ticket? 

BTW remember getting brutally scolded when I approached the cafe attendant coming from the sleeping / business class side and approaching the counter... was told to go around to the other side and wait in line with everyone else. This is an inconsistent pattern ... on some trains the cafe attendant will service both lines... the shorter being on the sleeper / business side. OK, I get it... but please be consistent and provide signage so pax know exactly where to cue up.


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## jis

pennyk said:


> When traveling on the Silvers in recent times, I have never had any problems getting my "free" non-alcoholic beverage from the sleeper lounge/dining car.


In my recent trips on the Super Star in car 9114 I just asked my SCA to get me a soft drink since I did not wish to go on a hike to the Lounge and they always obliged. I have occasionally visited the Cafe and out of habit just stood in the line if there is one. Hey sometimes there isn't even a line!


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## west point

Once I noted that a SCA carried a small notebook and gave great service noting down requests. Sometimes he had a handful of orders but got good tips.


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## NYP2NFL01

And, I did wait my turn in the cafe car. Thanks for all the replies!


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## John Bredin

NYP2NFL01 said:


> There was plenty of bottled water and we took full advantage of that. But, if I wanted a soda for instance, I would think the cafe car is the place to go, since the dining car is not always open for service.


When I was on the Lake Shore Ltd. earlier this month, the sleeper attendant told us that we could get drinks at any time in the dining car, except when the power was off for the connection/separation of the Boston and New York sections at Albany-Rensselaer. There was also a supply of bottled water in the sleeper car.


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## TheCrescent

Sleeping car passengers get free nonalcoholic drinks?

When ordering dinner on the Crescent, I asked for a glass of wine with dinner. The staff member told me that it wasn’t her job to wait in line in the cafe car for me.

That’s the service that I’m used to.


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## Cal

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I never had a problem going to the cafe car as a sleeper passenger. We often go to get some wine to have as a before dinner drink in our room.
> 
> 
> LSL will never get Superliners for reasons that have been hashed out on one of the threads here. I don't see why they couldn't do traditional dining from a Viewliner diner.


In the poster it shows the LSL with superliners. So as long as the LSL runs with viewliners the poster will not be accurate.


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## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> LSL will never get Superliners for reasons that have been hashed out on one of the threads here. I don't see why they couldn't do traditional dining from a Viewliner diner.


Those Viewliner diner's are well equipped for full service dining... and the money being charged sleeper pax should entitle appropriately high quality meals... but that isn't happening. The flex meal nonsense is disappointing and discouraging to all customers. LSL service is nowhere like the 20th Century Limited... the same route 50 years later.

Plainly a leadership and management issue that appears to be going absolutely nowhere.


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## CameraObscura76

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree that it's silly to have it as a rule, but it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them. If someone wants no social contact they should get their food to go instead of pretending they're seated alone despite all evidence to the contrary.


I’m sorry but I respectfully disagree with you. If I want to hide behind my device instead of feeling obligated to talk to strangers that I happen to be seated with, I don’t see anything wrong with that.


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> It is Amtrak policy for the cafe car to provide free ice and hot water to any passenger requesting it... and as a sleeper passenger you are entitled to sufficient bottled water.


It used to be that there was no particular limit on bottled water for sleeping car passengers but wasn't that changed five or six years ago when Amtrak established an official policy of two bottles of water per sleeping car passenger per day. From what I could see this was rarely enforced. I think this was adopted about the same time as other cost reduction measures such as limiting the variety of juice in the sleeping cars and limiting the variety of salad dressing options in the dining cars. 

Has the bottled water limitation changed or is it still on the books?


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## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> It used to be that there was no particular limit on bottled water for sleeping car passengers but wasn't that changed five or six years ago when Amtrak established an official policy of two bottles of water per sleeping car passenger per day. From what I could see this was rarely enforced. I think this was adopted about the same time as other cost reduction measures such as limiting the variety of juice in the sleeping cars and limiting the variety of salad dressing options in the dining cars.
> 
> Has the bottled water limitation changed or is it still on the books?


I didn't know that!

So if indeed there is a limitation of two bottles per day and one has a medical condition that requires more than amount of water available they should either shlep the gallons needed for a cross country trip, or purchase it in the cafe. Or consider not going on Amtrak. 

IMHO it is a human right to have access to water.


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## AmtrakBlue

20th Century Rider said:


> I didn't know that!
> 
> So if indeed there is a limitation of two bottles per day and one has a medical condition that requires more than amount of water available they should either shlep the gallons needed for a cross country trip, or purchase it in the cafe. Or consider not going on Amtrak.
> 
> IMHO it is a human right to have access to water.


Some of us don't even drink a whole bottle of water in a day. If you need more water, ask your neighbors.


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## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> Some of us don't even drink a whole bottle of water in a day. If you need more water, ask your neighbors.


According to medical sources a normal adult should consume eight 8 oz glasses of water a day... especially if there are medical conditions which require the body's ability to cleanse itself. The suggestion of knocking on doors to bum water off of 'your neighbors' is silly. The need water too.


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Gentle nudge back to Dining.....


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> I didn't know that!
> 
> So if indeed there is a limitation of two bottles per day and one has a medical condition that requires more than amount of water available they should either shlep the gallons needed for a cross country trip, or purchase it in the cafe. Or consider not going on Amtrak.
> 
> IMHO it is a human right to have access to water.


It seems to me that I have seen the bottled water limitation somewhere. Perhaps it was in the Amtrak service manual. 

However if it is in force, I have never seen it enforced. Often there is a case or two of bottled water stored in the luggage space in a superliner sleeping car and passengers appear to be free to take what they need if they run out of water which is normally placed in their room prior to depature.


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## Devil's Advocate

CameraObscura76 said:


> I’m sorry but I respectfully disagree with you. If I want to hide behind my device instead of feeling obligated to talk to strangers that I happen to be seated with, I don’t see anything wrong with that.


You see nothing wrong with _choosing_ to sit at a communal table while ignoring everyone around you? I'm no social butterfly, and I often find small talk tedious and boring, but I'm still aware of some basic social norms. If I sit down at a communal table in a beer garden then a bit of social interaction is expected. If I do not want any interaction then it's on me to _choose_ another option rather than forcing my isolation onto other people. Why should Amtrak be different?


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree that it's silly to have it as a rule, but it's also silly the way some antisocial people hide behind their phone or tablet as if nobody is seated with them. If someone wants no social contact they should get their food to go instead of pretending they're seated alone despite all evidence to the contrary.


Are we talking about dining on an Amtrak train or a 7th grade study hall???


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## TheCrescent

In the past, I’ve wanted to get room service but Amtrak crew refused to provide it, so for dinner, I had to eat in the dining car. Some conversations have been enjoyable but some have been forced.


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## enviro5609

Being sociable doesn't necessarily mean making small talk. It just means treating your dining companion like a human being, and communicating your expectations.

If I was seated with a stranger, and the stranger said to me "Sorry, but I've had a really long day and just wanted to read my book/check my emails while I eat, do you mind?" Not only would the answer be "Of course, go right ahead!" but the entire situation is immediately less awkward for everyone involved. The silence is now comfortable-- everyone knows what to expect. 

Things get weird when the silence is left unexplained.


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## 20th Century Rider

When seated for a meal with others on an Amtrak trip... I've always been fascinated with where others are from and in general, their story. To me it is just part of rail travel and its good manners. 

On the downside, when seated with someone totally involved with their cell phone... talking with someone or surfing it's unpleasant. So I get up... and go... coming back to eat later. Same when there are young kids at the table. I won't sit there and say so to the waiter who usually understands. 

In these regards, things can get complicated for a single traveler during mandatory community seating with required reservations. This has been a long standing problem... but if you work with the dining car staff something usually can be worked out. 

Wondering what kind of experience other single travelers on this forum have encountered...


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## jis

I have no problem with most table mates. If they wish to converse I can carry on a conversation about almost any thing sensible or nonsensical, but try to avoid politics, pickup and other obnoxious scenarios. The Smartphone comes in very handy if things cannot be controlled otherwise. If they don't wish to talk that is fine by me too. The basic mission is food, not conversation for me, so as long as the food is forthcoming I would generally go with whatever happens to be the flow of the table and deal with it appropriately.


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## Sauve850

jis said:


> I have no problem with most table mates. If they wish to converse I can carry on a conversation about almost any thing sensible or nonsensical, but try to avoid politics, pickup and other obnoxious scenarios. The Smartphone comes in very handy if things cannot be controlled otherwise. If they don't wish to talk that is fine by me too. The basic mission is food, not conversation for me, so as long as the food is forthcoming I would generally go with whatever happens to be the flow of the table and deal with it appropriately.


I agree. I go to the dining car to eat. Normally there is good conversation but if someone isnt up for conversation its fine with me.


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## 20th Century Rider

IMHO if I want to have a quiet dinner in silence I eat in my room and enjoy the scenery... which I do often. When I go to the dining room it is with the hope of meeting others who are traveling on the train and engage in conversation... which is one of the biggest advantages of train travel. 

If indeed 'community seating' is reinstated after covid... it will be a pleasure to meet others while dining.

There are apparently many points of view... and I do respect the thoughts and ideas of others... part of our AU community.


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## Sidney

Just being on the train is a good starting point for conversation. Usually I'll ask where they are going. I've had great conversations about train travel. Sometimes I'll meet people like myself who love traveling by Amtrak and all it's aspects. Other times I'll talk to people who are traveling for the first time on Amtrak or who rarely travel and I 'll answer any questions they have.

I never liked sitting side by side with a stranger(unless she's an attractive woman!) That's usually not the case. Since the pandemic they ask if you would mind sitting with others and you'll be sitting across from a solo traveler or a couple.


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## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> If indeed 'community seating' is reinstated after covid... it will be a pleasure to meet others while dining.


Already reinstated, and it's been reinstated since mid 2021. Just depends on the crew.


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## IndyLions

In regards to all the discussion about water and coffee, in almost all cases both should be available in your sleeper car - if your SCA is on the ball.

Despite the nice ice dispensers on the VL2 Sleepers, I have yet to see them in use. Kind of like the towel racks in the VL2 shower. Must take an act from on high to get the SCA‘s to take advantage of new features in the sleepers. Designing them in is not enough to get them used.


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## 20th Century Rider

RE Service fluctuations and the numerous and constant difficulties that seem to be going on and on...

After all is said and done... what are AU'ers take on the how of tipping SCA's on basic services, protocols, and amenities provided to sleeper passengers so expensively charged... I mean... um... with all the stuff going on??? 

If you pay $1000 for a night ride NYP to CHI on the LSL... and get sloppy or non existent service due to 'issues' then what is your take when you disembark???

I get it that we need to be flexible when it comes to service abnormalities due to administrative blunders, covid, and the economy... but the fare paid is gone at the end of the trip. What are the thoughts of fellow rail travel supporters and enthusiasts?


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## zephyr17

In some respects I hate it. I ride because I like trains and endure poor service by some employees on some trains.

Amtrak's customer service issues long predate COVID and whatever else. It had been a problem for literally decades and there is NO excuse for it. At all.

At the end of the day it is Amtrak management's failure. A unionized workforce is NOT a valid excuse. You just have to follow the agreed upon procedures for discipline.

If upper management prioritized customer service excellence and set up incentives and rewards for it (do systematic customer satisfaction surveys and make customer service scores part of middle management's performance reviews and compensation for example), they will eventually get it. It will take awhile, thr current culture is highly ingrained and it would take a lot of time and consistent energy and focus to change it.

Get a new board, get a new management team, hire some execs from the hospitality industry. Create a C suite position of Chief Customer Service Officer, hire somebody from Disney Cruise Line to fill it, and empower them. Or beg Brian Rosenwald on bended knee to come back and give him carte blanche.

BTW, VIA's onboard staff went through COVID, extensive furloughs and all sorts of stuff. When I was on the Canadian a couple weeks ago the OBS staff was excellent, as is usual with VIA.


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## IndyLions

I concur with zephyr17’s take.

Maybe a silver lining with the Covid induced early retirements will be that a lot of the regular poor performers I saw on trains over and over again have finally retired. On recent trips, I have gone out of my way to try and encourage the younger folks I see in the OBS positions. I’m hopeful that they won’t become jaded like their predecessors, but until the culture at Amtrak changes that’s probably wishful thinking.


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## Willbridge

Sidney said:


> Just being on the train is a good starting point for conversation. Usually I'll ask where they are going. I've had great conversations about train travel. Sometimes I'll meet people like myself who love traveling by Amtrak and all it's aspects. Other times I'll talk to people who are traveling for the first time on Amtrak or who rarely travel and I 'll answer any questions they have.
> 
> I never liked sitting side by side with a stranger(unless she's an attractive woman!) That's usually not the case. Since the pandemic they ask if you would mind sitting with others and you'll be sitting across from a solo traveler or a couple.


Good point about starting with the journey. Obviously it's a fresh topic that is shared, for better or for worse. When service is fast there usually isn't much time left to get into other subjects.

I don't mind sitting next to others (I'm skinny) but I try to be aware of how they may feel about it. And it's easier to converse with people across the table who may feel more at ease with a stranger than they would sitting next to someone.

Having first dined in the Union Pacific Astra-Dome diner, complete with finger bowls, I learned some things about fine dining from childhood rail travel. Later on it helped me when at business dinners or when European waiters seated me with strangers in restaurants.

I'm not sure what one might learn from dining car service now. One thing that our father -- a "regular" on PDX<>SEA -- stressed was respect for the dining car crew. Some were fathers of kids who I knew at school. That's still important, but Amtrak sometimes makes that difficult.


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## NYP2NFL01

The one thing we got last train trip was water - bottles and bottles of water! Not complaining, just stating fact.


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## fillyjonk

Honestly, anywhere any more "service" is incredibly spotty. I see this in shops and in home-repair. (A running joke here is "don't have anything in your house break during deer season").

Likewise, in stores - can't find something? Just walk through the whole store yourself until you do, or order it on line. I needed help at the Lowe's yesterday getting something off a high shelf and had three employees either powerwalk past me or go "not my department" before I found someone to help. When I was in their earlier this year with a bigger issue I was told "Well, everyone quit and all the new employees don't know their jobs yet, that's why you waited a half-hour to talk to someone."

On the train, I usually tip the SCA. Exception is if they're not present when I get off and the conductor has to open the door and help me off. Or if they don't come to make up the bed and I have to do it myself. I've had a few really outstanding SCAs in the past. I've had a few who were simply absent. And in the dining car, more often than not, I've had grumpy people working there. It does make the experience worse to have someone snap at you when you ask if they have something (that is on the menu but they have been out of before).

I understand having bad days but I also understand that it makes other people's day worse if you're short or rude to them. (I teach, and oh so many times I've stuffed down my annoyance and not said anything to a student because I know it won't change anything and will just make everyone feel worse)

I just generally expect poor service, that's my experience. I suspect it will be even more of our experiences going forward. Maybe it was always that way and people didn't notice or forgave it more? I know I tend to be more passive than many people; I am not a "I want to talk to a manager" type, I'm much more likely to just leave the shop without buying something or at least note down not to go back there. But when everywhere has bad service, what does a person do?


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## Railspike

zephyr17 said:


> In some respects I hate it. I ride because I like trains and endure poor service by some employees on some trains.
> 
> Amtrak's customer service issues long predate COVID and whatever else. It had been a problem for literally decades and there is NO excuse for it. At all.
> 
> At the end of the day it is Amtrak management's failure. A unionized workforce is NOT a valid excuse. You just have to follow the agreed upon procedures for discipline.
> 
> If upper management prioritized customer service excellence and set up incentives and rewards for it (do systematic customer satisfaction surveys and make customer service scores part of middle management's performance reviews and compensation for example), they will eventually get it. It will take awhile, thr current culture is highly ingrained and it would take a lot of time and consistent energy and focus to change it.
> 
> Get a new board, get a new management team, hire some execs from the hospitality industry. Create a C suite position of Chief Customer Service Officer, hire somebody from Disney Cruise Line to fill it, and empower them. Or beg Brian Rosenwald on bended knee to come back and give him carte blanche.
> 
> BTW, VIA's onboard staff went through COVID, extensive furloughs and all sorts of stuff. When I was on the Canadian a couple weeks ago the OBS staff was excellent, as is usual with VIA.


I agree it's a huge managerial issue. I even think some on this forum would make excellent managers of Customer Service. Especially those who have ridden trains for years and remember what "service" used to look like. IMO, whoever the manager might be should start by defining the word "hospitality". This should be at the top of the list and a major part of any/all AMTRAK job descriptions. 
HOSPITALITY: The act or practice of one who is hospitable; reception and entertainment of strangers or guests without reward, or with liberality and kindness.

Something is seriously wrong when one boards AMTRAK and expects poor service with good service being the exception. There is an old saying that goes "any behavior that is being repeated is being supported".


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## Lana J C

Years ago I put my 80 yr old dad on the SWC for his return home, hoping he'd enjoy the train trip experience as much as I do. At his dining car table the other younger people completely ignored him while they continued conversations. He felt ostracized and left out, not a good experience for him. I was sad for him and kinda disgusted at his tablemates. Basic common courtesy is always a good thing. For those on devices, maybe take your food to go back to your sleeper if you want to be alone?


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## caravanman

I always enjoyed meeting and chatting to tablemates in the diner, as well as meeting interesting characters in the lounge/viewing cars too.
The interactions with others were always more interesting to me than the food, but I am not a foodie as such. 
One has to give and take in these situations, I am quite happy to "feed" obnoxious table companions with conversational BS to see how far they will run with it...


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Just being on the train is a good starting point for conversation. Usually I'll ask where they are going. I've had great conversations about train travel. Sometimes I'll meet people like myself who love traveling by Amtrak and all it's aspects. Other times I'll talk to people who are traveling for the first time on Amtrak or who rarely travel and I 'll answer any questions they have.
> 
> I never liked sitting side by side with a stranger(unless she's an attractive woman!) That's usually not the case. Since the pandemic they ask if you would mind sitting with others and you'll be sitting across from a solo traveler or a couple.


So many situation specific ideas for this topic. Meeting a stranger traveler can go in any direction... however... most of the time they are eager to talk about the journey, their destination, and their home.

Many times I found myself in excellent conversation... but the traveler has a cold or a cough and is sneezing etc. Remembering at least twice when this led to a cold for me... and when traveling at an advanced age this is very uncomfortable. So now I observe that aspect as soon as I sit down... and on the side of health safety, I politely make an excuse to leave the table should the traveler be sniffling etc. I simply go to the waiter and tell them I am 'dizzy' and want to eat in my room. When you smile and are polite most things do work!

Your health is very important... especially when traveling.


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## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Already reinstated, and it's been reinstated since mid 2021. Just depends on the crew.


Yes... when the mask mandate was removed I assumed Amtrak would go back to community dining.


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## Devil's Advocate

enviro5609 said:


> If I was seated with a stranger, and the stranger said to me "Sorry, but I've had a really long day and just wanted to read my book/check my emails while I eat, do you mind?" Not only would the answer be "Of course, go right ahead!" but the entire situation is immediately less awkward for everyone involved.


What you're describing makes perfect sense coming from a neighbor in coach or a compartment across the hall. They had little or no control over ending up next to you and have nowhere more private to go. What I fail to understand is why someone needing to recharge would choose to drag their desire for privacy into the most public part of the train. Why not simply eat alone and leave that spot for someone who _wants_ to visit with others?

Back when Amtrak had a fleet of PPC cars it gave passengers a mix of seating options that worked both as a meeting point and as a place to get away and relax. Perhaps the CCC could have been reworked as a PPC-lite for other long distance routes. Unfortunately instead of leaning into that theme Amtrak chose to sell off their PPCs and park or rent other cars leaving the dining car as the only place to go on some trains. Maybe that decision is the root of the issue today.


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## Amtrak709

Lana J C said:


> Years ago I put my 80 yr old dad on the SWC for his return home, hoping he'd enjoy the train trip experience as much as I do. At his dining car table the other younger people completely ignored him while they continued conversations. He felt ostracized and left out, not a good experience for him. I was sad for him and kinda disgusted at his tablemates. Basic common courtesy is always a good thing. For those on devices, maybe take your food to go back to your sleeper if you want to be alone?


Perhaps a little off point but I might add, in my opinion, the advent and popularity of cell phones and similar devices have made us all a "rude" society!


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## 20th Century Rider

I agree... what you said makes perfect sense. Both facilities and staffing have been cut back which reduce options.

Someone on the forum stated that the SCA refused to bring their meal to the room. [Maybe because he was assigned the tasks of 2 or three people.] That pax should then have the option of going to the diner and asking for it placed in the white bag to be brought back to room. I can't think of a reason why such a request would be denied!

It seems that the passengers are becoming entangled in tighter and tighter situations... which is way unacceptable... especially given the newer higher fares.


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## jis

Lana J C said:


> Years ago I put my 80 yr old dad on the SWC for his return home, hoping he'd enjoy the train trip experience as much as I do. At his dining car table the other younger people completely ignored him while they continued conversations.


Now we are drifting into the realm of selection of conversation topics and how inclusive they are for everyone sitting at a table. Even in a non rail situation it is not unusual for multiple conversation on diverse subjects to carry on at the same table and yet a few feeling left out of it. I don't see how that general social phenomenon can be specifically avoided or addressed in all cases at an Amtrak Diner table, even if none are specifically trying to be nasty or anything like that.

Personally, I am typically not a conversation starter, being somewhat of a reclusive, but more of a conversation joiner or listener depending on what catches my fancy or not. So I may not exactly live upto the high standard of being a conversationalists in Amtrak Diner as seems to be expected here by some. C'est la vie.


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## Amtrak709

Though I have no recollection of reading any comments in this forum, I am curious as to how well (or not so well) is food service being handled on the Silver Star these days--with a consist of five sleepers with the Star and Meteor combined??


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## jis

AMTRAK709 said:


> Though I have no recollection of reading any comments in this forum, I am curious as to how well (or not so well) is food service being handled on the Silver Star these days--with a consist of five sleepers with the Star and Meteor combined??


I have traveled on the Super Star several times, and had no complaints about food service such as it is. I generally ate in the Diner, but I have also had food in my room. The SCAs generally take the order either for room delivery or for getting the food ready in the Diner for a specific seating. Breakfast is of course go whenever you want in the morning or have it delivered to your room.

There are two service people in the Kitchen, and orders placed are generally delivered at the time at which delivery was promised. Of course it is all Flex meal, but they seem to be prepared a little better than at some other trains, if that is possible. I have also generally had good SCAs worthy of bonus tips so far.

I will be on the Super Star later today headed to New York from Orlando, at the beginning of my third round trip on it.


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## Skyline

For me, socialization -- or at least the opportunity for same -- is a BIG reason why I choose train travel. Since Covid, I've avoided trains not so much about health concerns (tho I have some) but because the possibilities for meeting and conversing with a diversity of folks has been nearly flat. I can be alone at home or in my car, for almost free! So if socialization is once again the norm, I'm making plans for a bucket-list type of 2023 or 2024 rail journey in both the US (lower 48 plus Alaska) and Canada! Between travel and off-train activities I see it taking at least five weeks and costing a small fortune. That's what buckets are for!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AMTRAK709 said:


> Perhaps a little off point but I might add, in my opinion, the advent and popularity of cell phones and similar devices have made us all a "rude" society!


I doubt that having access to a phone made them rude but perhaps being _raised on a phone_ by exhausted parents made them rude. First we weakened our intergenerational bonds by creating the nuclear family unit. Then we sent both parents to work full time jobs. How are we surprised by the result?

_♫ And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon. Little boy blue and the man in the moon. "When you coming home, dad?" I don't know when... But we'll get together then. You know we'll have a good time then. ♫_


----------



## Amtrak709

jis said:


> I have traveled on the Super Star several times, and had no complaints about food service such as it is. I generally ate in the Diner, but I have also had food in my room. The SCAs generally take the order either for room delivery or for getting the food ready in the Diner for a specific seating. Breakfast is of course go whenever you want in the morning or have it delivered to your room.
> 
> There are two service people in the Kitchen, and orders placed are generally delivered at the time at which delivery was promised. Of course it is all Flex meal, but they seem to be prepared a little better than at some other trains, if that is possible. I have also generally had good SCAs worthy of bonus tips so far.
> 
> I will be on the Super Star later today headed to New York from Orlando, at the beginning of my third round trip on it.


Thanks!--jis--for your prompt reply. I am anxious to travel on the Super Star--having lived on the Space Coast and Daytona Beach for 34 years before moving back to Georgia. All my travels these days are on the Crescent. Many, many miles on the Silvers in the 1970's, 80's 90's. Perhaps a good time to drive over to Savannah or Jacksonville and board there just for a trip.


----------



## alpha3

We've been on the Zephyr, and the Empire Builder a few times, as I'm fond of Seattle.

I enjoy meeting new people at table, only once was it somewhat of a drag because of a young lady who wouldn't even look at us, she was so buried in her cellphone. It really was a turnoff when she proceeded to eat with a fork in one hand and still had the cell going in the other. But I have to say we've never had a tablemate that prompted us to move elsewhere.

We've met all kinds though, nice people, indifferent ones, and - some real characters. It seems to me the Empire Builder is the one that attracts the characters but it's these that have been the most interesting and entertaining. Of course, I've not been on nearly as many train trips as some of you. 

I enjoy the trains immensely, I just hope that Amtrak can get the crew problems worked out soon, with regard to the service issues.


----------



## CameraObscura76

Devil's Advocate said:


> You see nothing wrong with _choosing_ to sit at a communal table while ignoring everyone around you? I'm no social butterfly, and I often find small talk tedious and boring, but I'm still aware of some basic social norms. If I sit down at a communal table in a beer garden then a bit of social interaction is expected. If I do not want any interaction then it's on me to _choose_ another option rather than forcing my isolation onto other people. Why should Amtrak be different?


I’ll be polite and greet my fellow diners….but outside of that, I’m going to excuse myself and go back to my book. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just introverted like that.


----------



## joelkfla

Personally, I don't have a very sparkling personality, and I'm not good at small talk. At times, I've tried to initiate a conversation in the diner unsuccessfully. At other times, others at the table have struck up a lively conversation, and my attempts to join in have been mostly ignored. So I just retreat.

So why would I want to eat in the diner rather than my room?

I want my meal hot & fresh (or dessert cold & fresh)
I may want condiments which the SCA would not bring
I may want a refill on my drink
I may want a cup of coffee with my dessert
I may want to enjoy the view out both sides of the train
I enjoy the ambience and activity in the diner
I don't want the lingering aroma of my meal in my room
The fold-out tables are small and often unsteady
IMO, I have as much right to eat in the diner as anyone else in a sleeper, even if I'm not socially outgoing or a splendid conversationalist, and even if I choose to focus on my tablet.


----------



## Dakota 400

Two memorable and pleasant dining car experiences when sharing a table with others was on the Silver Meteor and the Empire Builder.

On the Meteor, i was seated with a Father and his 3 sons. En route to Orlando for a Disney World vacation and this was the boys' first train ride, the boys were excited. The gentleman and I had a pleasant conversation about a variety of topics with Son #1 and #2 asking questions or making a comment occasionally. They were in Coach and upon learning that I was in a Sleeper, the Father asked if they could see my Roomette. At that time, I did not think that was allowed and told him so. Which, he accepted. Food was good; service was good. It was a pleasant dinner.

On the Empire Builder out of Seattle, a gentleman was seated with me whose job was working in the oil fields of North Dakota. He was returning to his job after a days off. We had a very interesting conversation and I learned much about his job and the work taking place in those oil fields. Food and service was good. Another very pleasant Amtrak dinner.


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## 20th Century Rider

There have been some fascinating conversations on the EB... was talking with two just married in their very early 20's a few years ago... just after leaving Fargo. Asked what they did... they said they were retired... a large fracking company had bought out a large farm they'd inherited and were going out to see the world... with $4 million in their pockets. Oh my... wonder what became of them!

Had a 'down to earth conversation' more recently with a couple from the Gary IN area while heading east on the CZ. After our first encounter we met frequently during the trip... exchanged addresses... and have become good friends; now I hope to visit them sometime soon... very rare to make long term friendships on the train, but when it happens it is very special!


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## MARC Rider

1) I don't think that the implied contract you have with Amtrak when you buy a train ticket involves passengers being sociable at the dining table. The only reason they did community seating in the first place was to fill the tables to allow the maximum number of passengers to be served. I used to eat in the dining car of the_ Merchants Limited _back in 1975, and while we had community seating, there weren't any long dinner-table conversations. You didn't even have any conversations with the waiter, as you, the customer was the one who filled out your order. Of course, I ordered, was served, ate, and paid for dinner in the time it took the train to go from Trenton to Newark. (Admittedly, the trains were a bit slower back then.)

2) The level of service you may get in the dining car could very well depend on how full the train is. This may be especially true now that the dining car is staffed with only 1 or 2 people. I got excellent service for my flex meals when I last rode the Cardinal back in 2019, but there were only 12 people riding the sleeper that night. (Of course, the food quality was another issue.  ) I can only imagine what the Super Star is like during peak periods with 5 sold-out sleepers, and the same two dining car staff. This may also explain why "rules" seem to change. When the limited staff is swamped with work, it's not possible to provide personalized service and take care of all the other customers, too.

The moral of the story might be to avoid traveling during peak periods, at least in the short term.


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## ehbowen

If "dining memories" are on-topic here...I had one particularly pleasant and memorable dinner aboard the _Capitol Limited_ out of Chicago for Washington, DC in May of 2012. (Well, that was the plan...due to a track work window and a freight train delay caused by a suicide up the line we were bustituted out of Pittsburgh.) I was traveling with my #2 nephew and #3 niece, ages 12 and 9 at the time, sharing a bedroom (kids on the lower, me in the upper). For dinner the three of us were seated with a schoolteacher traveling alone. She spoke with the kids out of professional interest; they were both home-schooled as all of their six siblings have been (they do attend a structured 1-day a week classroom session; the rest of the time is home study and projects). The teacher was impressed that both of the kids were able to rattle off details of ancient history and literature. 

We ended up having a very pleasant week-long stay in DC; my mother flew out to meet us and she and the kids toured while I attended a conference. I think the highlight of the trip (for the kids) was the International Spy Museum.


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## 20th Century Rider

Dining and socializing patterns vary... on the NEC the pace is quicker and more business like. Many of the travelers use the train because it is the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.

But on the CZ, the CS, and other LD trains known for the scenery... the purpose of travel is more festive and vacation like [with exceptions of course] which brings more relaxed ambience in the dining cars.

If you want to go from CHI to SFO it's quicker and cheaper to get a bargain on a low cost airline; getting to the destination may be a burden... but again... quick and cheap. What I'm trying to say is that there is more of a desire to meet others and share the experience. Forever the adage... 'There's nothing quite like a train!'


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## west point

Dining and other services need management oversight. IMO oversight cannot take place until new PERMANENT members of the board are nominated and approved. Amtrak has 5 persons that know their jobs are soon to end with loss of pay. They are all going to be looking for new employment when they are scheduled for board "non meetings".
So, we have no wolf to keep the 5 foxes in check. The foxes are being well fed so no need to keep the mice in check. The mice are feeding off all the grain, so the hens cannot get enough to eat. The chickens then are fighting each other for what grain is left.


----------



## vacuvo

Does anyone have any insight into if/when traditional dining may be brought back on the Texas Eagle between Chicago and San Antonio?


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## 20th Century Rider

vacuvo said:


> Does anyone have any insight into if/when traditional dining may be brought back on the Texas Eagle between Chicago and San Antonio?


Unhappy pax all hope... while unglued management doesn't care. Not a good fit...


----------



## Michigan Mom

Devil's Advocate said:


> What you're describing makes perfect sense coming from a neighbor in coach or a compartment across the hall. They had little or no control over ending up next to you and have nowhere more private to go. What I fail to understand is why someone needing to recharge would choose to drag their desire for privacy into the most public part of the train. Why not simply eat alone and leave that spot for someone who _wants_ to visit with others?



If I'm traveling alone that will be exactly what happens, happy to dine in my room or seat. But there are different considerations for singles, couples, and groups of 3 or 4. If you have 4 people it's a no brainer to take your meals in the diner. Couples and singles should probably count on having tablemates - single people tying up a table for 4 for a long time is just plain inconsiderate - but you know, count me along those who don't expect conversation that is forced. There's been a couple of fun conversations over the years but mostly it's like being at work and I don't think there's anything wrong with reading a book or device, if that 's more relaxing for the person. Our family of 3 has always been told in no uncertain terms, "There WILL be a 4th person with you." This comes true about half the time. Most of the time the person hasn't been overly eager to chat either, and we can go either way. We vacation together to spend time with each other, including meals, so if we get a table for ourselves it's a bonus. If we don't, it's for a short time anyway.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Assigned table seating presents a wide variety of possibilities.

If everyone at the table is a single, than conversation can go in any direction... I've always experienced some kind of positive interchanges.

A single at a table with a couple... usually there is some conversation between both parties. IMHO when there is no conversation it can be awkward and somewhat unpleasant.

A single at at table with a party of three... for me this is the least desired... especially if the three are in conversation with each other and don't acknowledge the presence of that 4th person. This is where I've experienced the most adverse situations... when the connected party doesn't like another person being present and intruding on their personal discussion.

Two certainties... one doesn't know the 'tablescape' until they sit down. And if there is a problem, and it is dining by reservation, one can request meal be placed in white bag to go. 

A final thought... My preference is to have dinner in my room... and eat in the diner for breakfast and lunch when things are more casual.

Just my personal opinions and experiences... always interested in knowing of other points of view.


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## Devil's Advocate

joelkfla said:


> So why would I want to eat in the diner rather than my room?
> 
> I want my meal hot & fresh (or dessert cold & fresh)
> I may want condiments which the SCA would not bring
> I may want a refill on my drink
> I may want a cup of coffee with my dessert
> I may want to enjoy the view out both sides of the train
> I enjoy the ambience and activity in the diner
> I don't want the lingering aroma of my meal in my room
> The fold-out tables are small and often unsteady
> IMO, I have as much right to eat in the diner as anyone else in a sleeper, even if I'm not socially outgoing or a splendid conversationalist, and even if I choose to focus on my tablet.


Thank you for your feedback.

Maybe I'm misreading it but sounds like you're okay with interacting, and would respond if someone included you, but if you're left alone then you're satisfied focusing on your own thoughts and interests. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. The people I'm talking about are the folks who refuse to make eye contact, say little or nothing in response to anything around them, and act like they're seated alone. It's not about judging who has the right to participate or deciding who should be excluded so much as wondering what motivates people to act this way. You've certainly given me several possibilities to consider. The interesting thing about meeting people on Amtrak is the wide breadth of travelers who are unlikely to associate with each other anywhere else. It might be rather enlightening if an Amtrak diner was included as part of a legitimate social interaction study (as opposed to reality television).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

joelkfla said:


> Personally, I don't have a very sparkling personality, and I'm not good at small talk. At times, I've tried to initiate a conversation in the diner unsuccessfully. At other times, others at the table have struck up a lively conversation, and my attempts to join in have been mostly ignored. So I just retreat.
> 
> So why would I want to eat in the diner rather than my room?
> 
> I want my meal hot & fresh (or dessert cold & fresh)
> I may want condiments which the SCA would not bring
> I may want a refill on my drink
> I may want a cup of coffee with my dessert
> I may want to enjoy the view out both sides of the train
> I enjoy the ambience and activity in the diner
> I don't want the lingering aroma of my meal in my room
> The fold-out tables are small and often unsteady
> IMO, I have as much right to eat in the diner as anyone else in a sleeper, even if I'm not socially outgoing or a splendid conversationalist, and even if I choose to focus on my tablet.


PAX should get what they have paid for and have every right to be assertive. Forced community seating isn't right... perhaps appropriate for grammar school lunchroom... but not for adults on a train. There should be a choice for meal seating.

But Amtrak doesn't have the facilities to allow open seating... especially at dinner time when most want to eat in the dining car. Since meals are included in the fare, everyone wants all the meals. 

In trains elseware in the world, where food is not included, not all sleeper pax patronize the diner. Where food is included it is served in the private rooms with the options to order food in the dining car.

I do wish there was a dining plan choice... because for some of us, three rich meals a day is more that needed or wanted; that would bring down the fare as well. Options allow the freedom of choosing what is desired.

This has been discussed on many threads going way way back but Amtrak isn't listening.


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## lordsigma

I don’t have any direct insights but my prediction for dining is the following: that they will return traditional dining on the Silvers and Lake Shore in the traditional form with separate dining/cafe cars like out west. On the Eagle, CONO, Capitol Limited, Crescent, and Cardinal it will remain some type of split sleeper dining/cafe arrangement. They have posted chefs for Charlotte so maybe we shall find out soon what things will look like. Amtrak has in the past referenced exploring the VL2 diner as a single food service car and the Crescent and Cardinal would seem to be the logical choices to implement that on.


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## BoulderCO

20th Century Rider said:


> Two certainties... one doesn't know the 'tablescape' until they sit down.



I like your "tablescape" term, 20th Century Rider. Well done!


----------



## IndyLions

west point said:


> Dining and other services need management oversight. IMO oversight cannot take place until new PERMANENT members of the board are nominated and approved. Amtrak has 5 persons that know their jobs are soon to end with loss of pay. They are all going to be looking for new employment when they are scheduled for board "non meetings".
> So, we have no wolf to keep the 5 foxes in check. The foxes are being well fed so no need to keep the mice in check. The mice are feeding off all the grain, so the hens cannot get enough to eat. The chickens then are fighting each other for what grain is left.


Don’t get your hopes up. There was a Trains article on the nominations Biden made today, and it looks like a bunch of political payback with no relevant experience, and not much representation outside of the Northeast.

For instance, there’s an urban housing person and an AFL/CIO person on there.. That reeks of political payback more than qualifications for nomination to a supposedly important transportation post.

On the surface, it looks like new board, more of the same.

How disappointing. But if Biden has proven anything, it’s that he’s a career politician. He doesn’t know any other way.


----------



## Cal

joelkfla said:


> Personally, I don't have a very sparkling personality, and I'm not good at small talk. At times, I've tried to initiate a conversation in the diner unsuccessfully. At other times, others at the table have struck up a lively conversation, and my attempts to join in have been mostly ignored. So I just retreat.
> 
> So why would I want to eat in the diner rather than my room?
> 
> I want my meal hot & fresh (or dessert cold & fresh)
> I may want condiments which the SCA would not bring
> I may want a refill on my drink
> I may want a cup of coffee with my dessert
> I may want to enjoy the view out both sides of the train
> I enjoy the ambience and activity in the diner
> I don't want the lingering aroma of my meal in my room
> The fold-out tables are small and often unsteady
> IMO, I have as much right to eat in the diner as anyone else in a sleeper, even if I'm not socially outgoing or a splendid conversationalist, and even if I choose to focus on my tablet.





Devil's Advocate said:


> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> Maybe I'm misreading it but sounds like you're okay with interacting, and would respond if someone included you, but if you're left alone then you're satisfied focusing on your own thoughts and interests. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. The people I'm talking about are the folks who refuse to make eye contact, say little or nothing in response to anything around them, and act like they're seated alone. It's not about judging who has the right to participate or deciding who should be excluded so much as wondering what motivates people to act this way. You've certainly given me several possibilities to consider. The interesting thing about meeting people on Amtrak is the wide breadth of travelers who are unlikely to associate with each other anywhere else. It might be rather enlightening if an Amtrak diner was included as part of a legitimate social interaction study (as opposed to reality television).


Totally agree. I am also introverted, but I wouldn't ignore other people.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

BoulderCO said:


> I like your "tablescape" term, 20th Century Rider. Well done!


I should also add it would be a pleasure to have a conversation with you at the dinner table


----------



## Rambling Robert

In the dominion of the train, like a very small town, a pax has rules and ordinances, etc. to follow during travel for a safe, enjoyable trip. That would include the LSA advising a pax the limited use of say an iPad in the dining car. Of course the pax could ignore the LSA. Then it’s in the LSA’s court.

In early summer last year I was westbound on the LSL, 100% full, aisle seat. The window seat guy put his laptop out. I established in a few sentences if he’d like to chat. He said sure, a little. That was very helpful for me.

He could have switched seats with me - but it was about six hours of silence - him looking at his laptop ... and me looking out the window AND him looking at his laptop ... Boston to Syracuse (his stop).


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## 20th Century Rider

Whether or not to chat with a coach seat neighbor is its own thing... especially on a full train. Especially in the East where there are many traveling for business... I would respect the needs and desires of others when seated in coach.

BTW: Very awkward where the isle pax needs to reach across the window passenger to plug in a device. I don't find this pleasant but am inclined to accept what is. Especially if they ask to move to the window which I covet for the experience of riding the train. The alternative would be to deny the isle pax to plug in... which could result in a hostile situation.

The best thing to do is to actually offer to help them plug in across your space. Gratitude is better than hostility!

What do others think?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> What do others think?


On planes USB power is usually per-seat and AC power is between the seats. This is easier in some ways but it can also be awkward since the plug is sometimes near your seatmate's thigh. Frequent fliers will understand what you're up to but someone who rarely flies and never tried to charge a laptop may have a confused and unwelcome reaction. I've also noticed that AC plugs can be so new that they require excessive force or so old and weak that chargers simply fall out on their own. I agree that civility is better than hostility and advise bringing a short length of lightweight extension cable so you can keep the amount of at-plug fidgeting to a minimum for the benefit of both parties on planes and trains.


----------



## Rambling Robert

20th Century Rider said:


> Whether or not to chat with a coach seat neighbor is its own thing... especially on a full train. Especially in the East where there are many traveling for business... I would respect the needs and desires of others when seated in coach.
> 
> BTW: Very awkward where the isle pax needs to reach across the window passenger to plug in a device. I don't find this pleasant but am inclined to accept what is. Especially if they ask to move to the window which I covet for the experience of riding the train. The alternative would be to deny the isle pax to plug in... which could result in a hostile situation.
> 
> The best thing to do is to actually offer to help them plug in across your space. Gratitude is better than hostility!
> 
> What do others think?


 If I had the window out of courtesy offer helping with the laptop power cable around the tray table support for example. I always carry a triple tap on the train - phones and computers - wires everywhere!

For consuming food/drink the aisle seat is a little roomier. Fortunately I ate in the cafe - one of the first - before about 50 irritated pax waiting for the LSA to perform double duty Coach/Sleeper. While near the front of the line I noticed the double duty. Despite the stress and delay the LSA was very efficient at double duty - deserved a 30% tip (pandemic)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> If I had the window out of courtesy offer helping with the laptop power cable around the tray table support for example. I always carry a triple tap on the train - phones and computers - wires everywhere!
> 
> For consuming food/drink the aisle seat is a little roomier. Fortunately I ate in the cafe - one of the first - before about 50 irritated pax waiting for the LSA to perform double duty Coach/Sleeper. While near the front of the line I noticed the double duty. Despite the stress and delay the LSA was very efficient at double duty - deserved a 30% tip (pandemic)


That sounds just like the Texas Eaglet!


----------



## jis

Flower is back in the Super Star Diner …




My Salmon dinner on the way to New York. The train was pretty full and the Diner well patronized. But still majority of people ate in their rooms.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Flower is back in the Super Star Diner …
> 
> View attachment 28269
> 
> 
> My Salmon dinner on the way to New York. The train was pretty full and the Diner well patronized. But still majority of people ate in their rooms.


It might not be permanent. In March of 2021 there were flowers in the diner on my SWC, but that was (AFAIK) only because of that particular crew. On the TE/SL the same week there were no flowers in the diner.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> Flower is back in the Super Star Diner …
> 
> View attachment 28269
> 
> 
> My Salmon dinner on the way to New York. The train was pretty full and the Diner well patronized. But still majority of people ate in their rooms.


RE: Food quality for entre much improved from before... wish they'd so something about the salad!


----------



## IndyLions

…and I am on the SuperStar southbound today! Flowers for us too and a very enthusiastic and fun crew.

Of course, we are all anxiously awaiting the return of Traditional Dining - but just like jis showed In his photo, if you go to the trouble of putting your meal together nicely – you can end up with a pretty reasonable result. By all means if Amtrak gives you lemons – feel free to make lemonade.

All in all - I enjoyed my dinner very much. This really IS a nice train.


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> View attachment 28270
> 
> 
> …and I am on the SuperStar southbound today! Flowers for us too and a very enthusiastic and fun crew.
> 
> Of course, we are all anxiously awaiting the return of Traditional Dining - but just like jis showed In his photo, if you go to the trouble of putting your meal together nicely – you can end up with a pretty reasonable result. By all means if Amtrak gives you lemons – feel free to make lemonade.
> 
> All in all - I enjoyed my dinner very much. This really IS a nice train.


Whats that on the top left?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Whats that on the top left?


That is the new Butter Cake. Though a tad too sweet I still like it a lot.


----------



## Dakota 400

IndyLions said:


> By all means if Amtrak gives you lemons – feel free to make lemonade.



Thank you for your post and photo. But, your entree, served as it was, reminds me of a Stouffer's or Marie Calendar entree. Personally, I would prefer a Swanson Hungry Man Dinner .


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## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> Thank you for your post and photo. But, your entree, served as it was, reminds me of a Stouffer's or Marie Calendar entree. Personally, I would prefer a Swanson Hungry Man Dinner .


Agree! The fried chicken one!


----------



## jpakala

Both prior to Amtrak and since, our experience always has been positive as we shared dining car tables. On the LSL to NYC + Silver to FL we had a couple from the UK who had taken the QE2 and then Amtrak to CA and now back, a couple from Calgary, a NY retired teacher, etc.; on the CS an Australian & New Englander, a mother & daughter visiting from China, etc. On the TE dining car we even exchanged addresses with a woman from TX because we shared so many interests. In 1959 on the North Coast Ltd we were a family of 4 at a table but the NP "great big baked potato" was unforgettable & I have a colorful picture blotter even shaped like one that I guess was given to me on the train. On the PRR's General in 1962 my college roomate & I (headed west to Pittsburgh by coach) sat adjacent to a celebrity (likely in Pullman headed to Chicago).


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dakota 400 said:


> Thank you for your post and photo. But, your entree, served as it was, reminds me of a Stouffer's or Marie Calendar entree. Personally, I would prefer a Swanson Hungry Man Dinner .


To be fair to Amtrak what I've been seeing in reviews of premium meals on long haul flights shows a rather severe hit to quality and quantity on airlines as well. The combination of global pandemic, supply chain collapse, and Russian military aggression seems to have made everything worse for everyone.


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Agree! The fried chicken one!


Stouffers or Hungry Man is a step up from flex food.


----------



## lordsigma

On Its Sleeper Routes, Amtrak Is Making Its Dining Car Part of the Experience


The train company has been rolling out improvements to dining cars on its long-haul routes since last summer—now, they might be the best part of the journey.




www.cntraveler.com





Nice review of the dining car (likely sponsored.) interestingly they mentioned the plates - I wonder if Amtrak is just starting to roll out the new plates.


----------



## Rambling Robert

lordsigma said:


> On Its Sleeper Routes, Amtrak Is Making Its Dining Car Part of the Experience
> 
> 
> The train company has been rolling out improvements to dining cars on its long-haul routes since last summer—now, they might be the best part of the journey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cntraveler.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice review of the dining car (likely sponsored.) interestingly they mentioned the plates - I wonder if Amtrak is just starting to roll out the new plates.


 It gives the impression they turn the tables in a half hour? Written on a positive note for sure because not mentioned was the crudy (literally) flex meals were pre/pandemic ... and some routes haven’t switched back to traditional dining in eastern US - both Amtrak mistakes. Was there communal dining? 8 steps .... now I have to try a Bloody Mary!


----------



## Dakota 400

Rambling Robert said:


> 8 steps .... now I have to try a Bloody Mary!



Agree! I wonder what the "8 steps" are to making that Bloody Mary?


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Stouffers or Hungry Man is a step up from flex food.


I love those Stouffer's chicken pot pies ... easily nuked, rich and delicious... the large ones can be had for $4... stuff like that would be a no brainer for Amtrak... but good ideas seem to get lost in their bureaucratic jungle.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Currently on the Super Star (5/1). Has anyone seen this item on the Flex menu?
It’s a Buttercake - extremely rich! I’m not a fan myself. According to Kumar, my SCA, this has replaced the Blondie Brownie. The chocolate one is still available.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Currently on the Super Star (5/1). Has anyone seen this item on the Flex menu?
> It’s a Buttercake - extremely rich! I’m not a fan myself. According to Kumar, my SCA, this has replaced the Blondie Brownie. The chocolate one is still available.View attachment 28291


It's great when Amtrak sources from local restaurants... they've done this in the past with pax enjoying some really authentic and quality foods... hoping this is a sign of 'Buttercake' better things to come in the Amtrak diner!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

20th Century Rider said:


> It's great when Amtrak sources from local restaurants...



I just looked them up. Italian family deli and bakery — huge sandwiches, plus lots of other baked goods in addition to the butter cake. Frank and Louie are brothers, and assorted other family members also help out.

Yes, much better than just getting stuff from a chain.


----------



## Rambling Robert

The DownEaster’s new menu_- now available will hopefully be an early highlight to my upcoming 132 hour Maine to LA (LSL EB CS) via PDX only a few weeks away. The new menu features more breakfast items which I’ll fill up on because I almost didn’t get fed in Coach on the LSL. 

My last trip the LSL had a dual cafe with the LSA preparing food orders from sleeper cars vs Coach with a priority of sleeper orders. That was June 2021 and I think there’s a new National menu on the LSL..

DownEaster menu:


https://www.amtrakvacations.com/sites/amtrak/files/2021-02/Downeaster-Cafe-Menu-120616.pdf


----------



## joelkfla

Rambling Robert said:


> The DownEaster’s new menu_- now available will hopefully be an early highlight to my upcoming 132 hour Maine to LA (LSL EB CS) via PDX only a few weeks away. The new menu features more breakfast items which I’ll fill up on because I almost didn’t get fed in Coach on the LSL.
> 
> My last trip the LSL had a dual cafe with the LSA preparing food orders from sleeper cars vs Coach with a priority of sleeper orders. That was June 2021 and I think there’s a new National menu on the LSL..
> 
> DownEaster menu:
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrakvacations.com/sites/amtrak/files/2021-02/Downeaster-Cafe-Menu-120616.pdf


I don't think that's a new menu. You're looking at the Amtrak Vacations site which is actually just a travel agent, and the URL points to a folder named 2021-02.

The menu on the official site is here: https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user10/New Menu Board Vertical 1.pdf


----------



## TEREB

With the northbound Silver Service, since the train arrives in NYP at 7:20, will there be a second dinner served?


----------



## joutback

i was told yea but onlya total of 5 entrees to choose from for 2 lunches and two dinner (i get on at 1 pm and off the next day at 7pm)


----------



## UserNameRequired

Any news/rumors on the LSL and flex meals?


----------



## JWM

Recently flew from Houston to Buenos Aires in United's "Premium Economy". I'd have killed for one of those "Flex Meals".


----------



## Bob Dylan

JWM said:


> Recently flew from Houston to Buenos Aires in United's "Premium Economy". I'd have killed for one of those "Flex Meals".


 Long Haul on Short Rations!


----------



## Brian Battuello

UserNameRequired said:


> Any news/rumors on the LSL and flex meals?


We can only dream....


----------



## jis

UserNameRequired said:


> Any news/rumors on the LSL and flex meals?


Rumor? Sure. Verifiable news? No.

For the LSL the rumors range between "Traditional dining gone forever" to "Will be restored mid-September or soon thereafter". 

Meanwhile at least flowers in vases have been definitely restored on the Super Star. There is a more firm rumor about traditional service restoration on both the Star and the Meteor come mid-September, unless of course COVID v6.0 or some such intervenes.


----------



## Brian Battuello

jis said:


> For the LSL the rumors range between "Traditional dining gone forever" to "Will be restored mid-September or soon thereafter".



Of what year?


----------



## jis

Brian Battuello said:


> Of what year?


Take your pick


----------



## west point

Is it true that there is supposed to be some "independent committee" deciding fate of dinning nationwide?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Is it true that there is supposed to be some "independent committee" deciding fate of dinning nationwide?


A Committee to study and recommend how dining should be provided on Amtrak trains was created by the Authorization Bill. There is a user community representative that is designated to be a nominee from RPA.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

JWM said:


> Recently flew from Houston to Buenos Aires in United's "Premium Economy". I'd have killed for one of those "Flex Meals".


Even on my bad trips I can usually perk myself up by thinking "At least it wasn't United." On todays flight passing through a (borrowed) United gate was scarier than boarding an Envoy E175.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jis said:


> A Committee to study and recommend how dining should be provided on Amtrak trains was created by the Authorization Bill. There is a user community representative that is designated to be a nominee from RPA.


The money that is wasted on this committee could go directly to the dining car budgets and likely make a substantial impact on improved service.


----------



## Mailliw

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The money that is wasted on this committee could go directly to the dining car budgets and likely make a substantial impact on improved service.


Interesting idea; I propose a committee be formed to study it.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Mailliw said:


> Interesting idea; I propose a committee be formed to study it.



First, we need a task force to make a recommendation as to whether or not to form a committee to study it. That way, we can kick the can years down that road so it is never addressed.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Even on my bad trips I can usually perk myself up by thinking "At least it wasn't United." On todays flight passing through a (borrowed) United gate was scarier than boarding an Envoy E175.



Is the E175 the scary part? I love those planes. They are the perfect size “small plane” to me. But maybe I’ve been lucky with all good experiences.


----------



## Amtrak709

I. too, fantasize about the return of full service dining on the east coast trains. Having lived in Daytona Beach for 34 years before moving to Georgia in 1998, many, many great days and nights were spent on the Silver Service trains. Maybe the years since the ejection of Congressman Mica as they pass will achieve some positive results. I, now, am a Crescent passenger most of the time boarding at ATN. Although I miss the Silver Meteor and hope to see its return--think about the "Super Star" with 2 locomotives, 6 coaches, a lounge, a Viewliner diner, 5 sleepers, and a baggage car--and that diner once again with full service meals. It make me wonder if full service dining was restored to that size consist, could the service level required to handle it exist today or soon?????. I think my whole scenario is still, for a while, a fantasy to be enjoyed as such.


----------



## jis

PaTrainFan said:


> First, we need a task force to make a recommendation as to whether or not to form a committee to study it. That way, we can kick the can years dow that road so it is never addressed.



Joking aside, this Committee is supposed to report back in six months. This was pushed by the rail advocates to try to get a say in what Amtrak does with food service. Until now there was no mechanism to cause Amtrak to bother with any feedback from its customers and other stakeholders, except when it randomly caught the fancy of someone at the right place, which of late of course it did not.  Amtrak and its Board was not answerable to anyone or supervision in any form, in an effective way except to meet the zero deficit goal set by Mica, so long as that lasted.


----------



## Cal

From a story on Instagram by user Philmartinjr, who I believe is an Amtrak conductor


----------



## Amtrak709

jis: One of these days I would love to recount to you and the rest of the forum the first and ONLY time I met John Mica. It was in 1988 long before he was elected from my district in Florida to Congress (I probably voted for him in 1992) and has to do with my inviting him to speak at an organizing group of rail passenger fans and model railroaders for which I was the group's facilitator in DeLand. Little did I know what effect he would have on Amtrak's dining issues years later.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> From a story on Instagram by user Philmartinjr, who I believe is an Amtrak conductor


That looks like a mockup, with models of seats and fixtures, not actual ones.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> That looks like a mockup, with models of seats and fixtures, not actual ones.


Was this in the soft mockup of the ICTs that was presented in Philadelphia that Jim Mathews of RPA went to (see the third article in Hotline #1,259 –May 6, 2022 )? Or was it somewhere else?


----------



## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> Joking aside, this Committee is supposed to report back in six months. This was pushed by the rail advocates to try to get a say in what Amtrak does with food service. Until now there was no mechanism to cause Amtrak to bother with any feedback from its customers and other stakeholders, except when it randomly caught the fancy of someone at the right place, which of late of course it did not.  Amtrak and its Board was not answerable to anyone or supervision in any form, in an effective way except to meet the zero deficit goal set by Mica, so long as that lasted.



Of course it was sarcasm but I don't put it past Amtrak leadership to look at a way around the deadline. Granted, this is ensconsed in law now but have they not ignored other mandates in the past?


----------



## Mailliw

That setup looks great for new cafe cars, but doing that to brand new fully equipped dining cars would be a death warrant for traditional dining across the board.


----------



## jis

PaTrainFan said:


> Of course it was sarcasm but I don't put it past Amtrak leadership to look at a way around the deadline. Granted, this is ensconsed in law now but have they not ignored other mandates in the past?


If I am not mistaken this task has been given to the DOT/FRA and not Amtrak too, though I could be mistaken. There are a few other things that have also been tasked to DOT/FRA and taken away from Amtrak including the whole issue of what to do about LD trains precisely to address the fear that is expressed above.


Mailliw said:


> That setup looks great for new cafe cars, but doing that to brand new fully equipped dining cars would be a death warrant for traditional dining across the board.


That is the reason I was asking whether this was part of the ICT Soft Mockup or something else. That seems more like a mockup of a food service lounge for use in a Regional service than one suitable for an overnight service with full dining.


----------



## MARC Rider

This isn't Amtrak, but rather the Glacier Express in Switzerland. This is a tourist train, and offer some good dining (at your seat) options. However, even they are having cutbacks. 
Glacier Express - Gastronomy


> "Limited catering on certain trains"
> Due to the current situation (e.g. the short-term nature of the business and general staff shortage in the gastronomy), we are currently unable to offer the usual catering service on all trains. For the time being, the complete catering offer according to the menu is only available on trains 902/903/904 & 905 (all trains running between St. Moritz and Zermatt).
> 
> The trains 900/901/906 & 907 operate with a limited catering service. There is no catering service on these trains between Brig-Zermatt and Chur St. Mortiz.
> 
> However we can offer you fine lunch boxes and drinks if you order in advance on these trains



The lunch boxes are CHF 25 -35 (CHF is the Swiss Franc and is about the same as the US dollar at current rates of exchange, at least when I last looked)

This you can pay $25-$35 for a lunch box, which contains dried sausage, cheese, bread and butter a dessert and "aperitif mix" (whatever that is.)
At least the cheese is real Swiss cheese! 

On the trains that still have full catering, the menu is pretty impressive, if pricey:

GEX_Speisekarte_22.pdf (glacierexpress.ch)

Fuller dinners range from CHF40 (Salad, main dish & dessert) to CHF 52 for a 4 course meal that includes a cheese course. (Hopefully including Swiss Cheese!) Main dishes are CHF 20 -30. Booze prices are reasonable.

I wonder if an operation like this could be run in the States. I especially like the Panorama Wagon, which is sort of like a single-level Sightseer Lounge, except that all of the coaches on the train are Panorama Wagons. They should put something like that on the Lakeshore Limited, and maybe some of the NYP - ALB Empire service trains. At least.


----------



## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> If I am not mistaken this task has been given to the DOT/FRA and not Amtrak too, though I could be mistaken. There are a few other things that have also been tasked to DOT/FRA and taken away from Amtrak including the whole issue of what to do about LD trains precisely to address the fear that is expressed above.
> 
> That is the reason I was asking whether this was part of the ICT Soft Mockup or something else. That seems more like a mockup of a food service lounge for use in a Regional service than one suitable for an overnight service with full dining.



This should give us some comfort. But the task force could still recommend changing on board dining in a way we prefer not, just after things went positive on the Western trains and may be trending the right way on some Eastern trains. We shall see as this introduces another level of government bureaucracy, which is also something that cannot be trusted.


----------



## jis

PaTrainFan said:


> This should give us some comfort. But the task force could still recommend changing on board dining in a way we prefer not, just after things went positive on the Western trains and may be trending the right way on some Eastern trains. We shall see.


Membership of RPA designee is almost written into the regulation, not quite, but almost. And of course I don't know who RPA will designate officially for sure. So this cannot exactly run away from us completely, or well at least there is reason to be optimistic.


----------



## MARC Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> This should give us some comfort. But the task force could still recommend changing on board dining in a way we prefer not, just after things went positive on the Western trains and may be trending the right way on some Eastern trains. We shall see.


If this task force operates like other Federal Advisory Committees, their meetings should be open, and they should be giving the public opportunity to address the issues on the meeting agendas. It would probably help for them to get lots of feedback about the bogus accounting on the cost side at the very least. I would suppose such a group is under the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA), which requires such things. Of course, violations of FACA don't really have any penalties, except that the advice given by the committee under those circumstances has less credibility. The other thing about FACA is that the agency asking for the advice controls the agenda of what they're asking from the committee, so having the committee report to an agency independent of Amtrak is actually pretty significant.


----------



## toddinde

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The money that is wasted on this committee could go directly to the dining car budgets and likely make a substantial impact on improved service.


The committee isn’t going to cost anything. It makes sense to have an RPA Rep advising on this. The committee was a very smart addition to the legislation where we believe Amtrak needs input to make a sound decision.

The food service debates may be the most absurd things I’ve ever read. I’ve read people proposing that unless their favorite menu item is on the menu, it’s hopeless. Some people insist they be seated with other people or it’s horrible. Others want the service contracted to Cracker Barrel (yuck). If somebody suggests vegan or vegetarian items, they are harassed. Food service needs to evolve. Healthy meals and snacks need to be available for all passengers. There are many concepts from Europe that would be a vast improvement. The advisory committee is an excellent idea.



Cal said:


> From a story on Instagram by user Philmartinjr, who I believe is an Amtrak conductor


I don’t think that’s a diner; that’s a lounge.


----------



## zephyr17

toddinde said:


> I don’t think that’s a diner; that’s a lounge.


That is a lounge in a Viewliner shell.

I have always thought a Viewliner lounge would be a good thing, the double row of windows make viewing almost as good as a wraparound window.

It is a good thing if that is a new lounge car (unlikely since Amtrak has pretty clearly said it is done with CAF and Viewliners).

It is a bad thing if they are going to rip up the Viewliner diners to do it.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> That is a lounge in a Viewliner shell.
> 
> I have always thought a Viewliner lounge would be a good thing, the double row of windows make viewing almost as good as a wraparound window.
> 
> It is a good thing if that is a new lounge car (unlikely since Amtrak has pretty clearly said it is done with CAF and Viewliners).
> 
> It is a bad thing if they are going to rip up the Viewliner diners to do it.


What makes you think that just because it has a second row of windows it must be Viewliner shell? Inquiring minds want to know  Is there any reason that a car with two rows of windows would be impossible to produce on any other platform?


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> What makes you think that just because it has a second row of windows it must be Viewliner shell? Inquiring minds want to know  Is there any reason that a car with two rows of windows would be impossible to produce on any other platform?


Shape of the body and the paneling between the windows suggest it's a viewliner II shell, although hopefully they were just using it for whatever they're planning. That would be an actual upgrade.


----------



## zephyr17

Well, the relative size of two rows of windows to each other plus the angle of the shell wall make it a dead ringer for a Viewliner.

If starting from scratch, personally I'd go for something like a Seaboard Sun series lounge with large wraparound windows.


----------



## jis

It looks like a Viewliner from the inside, but it says nothing about what the actual car shell that does not exist yet, is going to be.

I am almost certain that one thing they will not do is start from scratch. They will more likely start with the basic frame of a Venture (or something of the shelf of that nature) and then figure out which panels will hold windows instead of body skin. You would be amazed how incredibly varied window patterns can be incorporated into one of these basic frames.

Indeed, I would not be surprised if they had not already been talking about such possibilities in the context of LD fleet replacement.

But @zephyr17 I do agree that it would be nice to get something like:







Incidentally these cars were produced by Alstom using the original Red Leaf Canadian Car and Foundry standard Coach frames which originally had just one row of smaller windows like any other standard American Coaches. So at least theoretically one could finagle something like this or something like Viewliner window layout on a standard Venture frame if one choose to do so and spend the money on such.

This is what it looked like from inside with the original window layout as Alstom started the conversion work leading to the car shown above:


----------



## Matt Johnson

joelkfla said:


> That looks like a mockup, with models of seats and fixtures, not actual ones.



Unfortunately that is a Viewliner II dining car that was ripped apart to test this new cafe car conversion nonsense. Very unfortunate after all of the effort and money that went into designing and building the new dining car fleet to see money wasted on destroying brand new equipment.


----------



## jis

Matt Johnson said:


> Unfortunately that is a Viewliner II dining car that was ripped apart to test this new cafe car conversion nonsense. Very unfortunate after all of the effort and money that went into designing and building the new dining car fleet to see money wasted on destroying brand new equipment.


The original Anderson's folly in action! I guess that is not happening now?

I guess that may be why one Viewliner Dining Car appears to be not in service, leaving aside the mothballed ones for the moment. Which car was it? Anyone know? Was it the original prototype, prototyping again?


----------



## Matt Johnson

jis said:


> I guess that may be why one Viewliner Dining Car appears to be not in service, leaving aside the mothballed ones for the moment. Which car was it? Anyone know? Was it the original prototype, prototyping again?



It's not the 8400, but one of the new ones. Other than that, I don't know.


----------



## MARC Rider

From the picture, it's hard to say whether it's just been Photoshopped or whether those white fake tables are actually full scale models of the proposed concept. It actually doesn't look that bad to me, assuming the final table design fits into the decor of the car. Lots of people here complained about the CCC cars on the superliner, but I find them perfectly fine. And they are going to need to develop a design for the lounge/cafe car on the next generation of single level long distance cars.


----------



## zephyr17

The problem I have with the Superliner Diner/Lounges (aka "CCC") is the fact that the lounge end is too small and the lounge end and the dining end are separated. The "lounge" end has only four tables and is isolated from the rest of the car. More successful, traditional diner lounge designs, like SP's "Pride of Texas" coffee shop cars or their Lark Club triple units, basically the lounge and lounge service service counter was at was at one end of the car, facing in and the car could be set up with a varying amounts of lounge versus diner seating. For example, there was not much demand for dinner on the Lark and the Lark Club was mostly lounge during evening hours. Breakfast was huge and the lounge seating of the evening before became diner seating. Plus, the interior of the car was much more open. I realize that the dumbwaiter and service set up area of what is basically a kit-bashed diner presented design issues of the Superliner diner lounges.

I know I am kind of in the minority, but I do like the table arrangement in the diner end of the diner/lounges.

I do hope they pay more attention to the "lounge" aspects of new cafe/lounges than they did with the AmCafes and make a more welcoming environment with better viewing. The picture shown is not a bad start. And from direct experience, hanging out in the Viewliner Diner in its "Sleeper Lounge" capacity is a lot more pleasant than being in an AmCafe. Now, if only the crews don't homestead in them...


----------



## MARC Rider

zephyr17 said:


> I do hope they pay more attention to the "lounge" aspects of new cafe/lounges than they did with the AmCafes and make a more welcoming environment with better viewing. The picture shown is not a bad start. Now, if only the crews don't homestead in them...


Amen.


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> From the picture, it's hard to say whether it's just been Photoshopped


The person is a known and respected Amtrak NEC conductor among railfans AFAIK. I don't believe it's photoshopped. Maybe @Acela150 could confirm/deny


----------



## Matt Johnson

I saw another photo of that car a while back, where someone photographed the interior through the window from outside. It is an actual Viewliner II that was stripped inside to test this new (and hopefully now abandoned) cafe/lounge conversion layout.


----------



## west point

Moved my post to here.
21 minutes ago

There are several factors that meet the desire of passengers to want or need meal service.
1. The first item to consider is average number of passengers on the train. If a train only has 100 passengers and another has 500 which train has the possibility to come closer to a breakeven of costs?
2. To cover demand peaks enough OBS in snack cars have to be on duty to allow quick service. Enough stock as well. No cash
3. Quick service means the originating station of a train has the train snack bar & diner open 20 minutes before departure. Passengers at mid points already have that advantage as soon as they board. The exception of course will be where power changes happen mainly WASH or PHL keystones. Sometimes there are mid route power changes.
4. Both lounge / snack cars and diners need to have 24/7 hours when exceeding a certain number of passengers for that train.
5. Stocking of the cars has to meet the demand even it means restocking at mid points. Maybe the way would be for extra meals to be stored in baggage cars. That way not as much worry for very late trains at restocking locations. Meals could be stored in dry ice.
6. Passengers have to have limits when in lounge or diner cars those times which will be limited during rush periods. They can have right to return if car has spaces at off rush times for that train.
7. Sleeper passengers can make meal choices at reservation. Can change until about 5 days. Prevents earlier choices backs up meal supplier. Reservations 2-5 days can make choice. If Amtrak changes choices, then anyone can change choice.
8. Coach passengers can make choice and pay when making reservations.
9. Any meals not eaten offered sale to coach passengers once all paid (inc sleeper) not claimed.
10. All these changes may require a major IT upgrade to arrow.


----------



## lordsigma

If this was the one from before that they had been playing around with as a concept I don’t think they did anything super permanent that would have prevented them from putting everything back to how it was (like I don’t believe they removed the kitchen or anything from it.) would be a matter of putting tables back in (and it appears some of the lighting fixtures and finishes?) it kind of seemed like they were thinking of a CCC like car rather than completely removing the food prep area. Obviously I don’t know for certain but I specifically remember someone saying they did not remove anything from the kitchen.


----------



## toddinde

zephyr17 said:


> That is a lounge in a Viewliner shell.
> 
> I have always thought a Viewliner lounge would be a good thing, the double row of windows make viewing almost as good as a wraparound window.
> 
> It is a good thing if that is a new lounge car (unlikely since Amtrak has pretty clearly said it is done with CAF and Viewliners).
> 
> It is a bad thing if they are going to rip up the Viewliner diners to do it.


This was part of the mock up for new long distance cars. My understanding is that both the Siemens cars and more Viewliners are options for the long distance car replacement order. A Viewliner lounge would be quite nice.


----------



## Steve4031

toddinde said:


> This was part of the mock up for new long distance cars. My understanding is that both the Siemens cars and more Viewliners are options for the long distance car replacement order. A Viewliner lounge would be quite nice.




I thought that viewliners were not going to happen. I do like the design of them. I prefer the beds that are parallel to the window rather than those that are horizontal to the window like those in bedrooms on Amtrak and those in european sleeping cars.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> I thought that viewliners were not going to happen. I do like the design of them. I prefer the beds that are parallel to the window rather than those that are horizontal to the window like those in bedrooms on Amtrak and those in european sleeping cars.


Viewliner interior layout and even double windows can indeed still happen. It is just that they are unlikely to happen in a custom shell platform. They can be built on a common platform shell if there is such a desire.


----------



## Steve4031

jis said:


> Viewliner interior layout and even double windows can indeed still happen. It is just that they are unlikely to happen in a custom shell platform. They can be built on a common platform shell if there is such a desire.



That works for me. I now remember an earlier post where you mentioned this.


----------



## Rambling Robert

I’ll be on the CS in a sleeper to visit a special friend. She wants to know if they’re still called Pullman? She’s funny.

But in the 40s to 60s did Coach get to reserve a seat in the dining car) If in a Pullman did you get a seat and a bunk? We’re they bunks stacked in threes? Twos?

When did dual level dining cars go in service?


----------



## John Bredin

Don't know about the dining car for sure, bit I think the railroad itself ran those (vs. Pullman for the sleepers) and diner meals were not included in sleeper fare. I think the diner was for whoever paid to eat in the diner.

Seat during the day folding into a bunk, with two seats facing becoming two bunks stacked. Just like a roomette now without the fourth wall (or sink or toilet) but a curtain instead.

Superliners came in the late 1970s.


----------



## jis

Before Superliners and Amtrak SantaFe did have bi-level Diners in their El Capitan Hi Level consists. The cost of dining AFAIK was not included in the ticket and people who ate in the Diner paid for it at the table.

Since the El Cap was a Coach only train, naturally all the users of these Hi Level Diners were Coach passengers.


----------



## joelkfla

In 1940, a 4-course steak dinner on the El Capitan cost $1.00, which would be $20.65 in today's dollars.









Interior Back Cover







content.wisconsinhistory.org


----------



## mlanoue

joelkfla said:


> In 1940, a 4-course steak dinner on the El Capitan cost $1.00, which would be $20.65 in today's dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior Back Cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> content.wisconsinhistory.org



It's always fun to look at old menus like that from the pre-Amtrak days. But for me it's a bit of an information overload. It's nice to have choices, but that A La Carte page is a lot. It's amazing they loaded all of that on the train. While I wish Amtrak had maybe a few more choices, I do appreciate the simplicity.


----------



## Willbridge

jis said:


> Now we are drifting into the realm of selection of conversation topics and how inclusive they are for everyone sitting at a table. Even in a non rail situation it is not unusual for multiple conversation on diverse subjects to carry on at the same table and yet a few feeling left out of it. I don't see how that general social phenomenon can be specifically avoided or addressed in all cases at an Amtrak Diner table, even if none are specifically trying to be nasty or anything like that.
> 
> Personally, I am typically not a conversation starter, being somewhat of a reclusive, but more of a conversation joiner or listener depending on what catches my fancy or not. So I may not exactly live upto the high standard of being a conversationalists in Amtrak Diner as seems to be expected here by some. C'est la vie.



I only recall one out and out non-conversationalist in a dining car and he was reading one of Ann Rule's true crime books at the table. I decided it would not be wise to drag him into the table talk among we other three unrelated travelers.


----------



## Willbridge

In the pros and cons of community seating, it should be pointed out that though it is rare for most Americans, there are other venues where we'll be seated with strangers. There may be an official connection of some kind, such as at a military reunion, but in terms of conversation that's not much different than having a train journey in common.

There are the same risks. At a Chamber of Commerce luncheon in a small Alberta city I was seated at the head table next to the wife of the chamber president. Just before I was to speak on passenger transport, she asked me about my experience. One item relevant to the Alberta economy was a job with a Japanese wholesale tour operator, routing tours by rail into the Canadian Rockies, for example.

Unfortunately, her brother was one of the raw Canadian troops sent to defend Hong Kong in WWII and then spent years in a Japanese P.O.W. camp. She was pretty blunt about her feelings, including as war criminals anyone who would work in 1974 for a Japanese company. (The company had been started by Continental Trailways as their Japanese subsidiary. I think the finance officer was the only employee old enough to have participated in the war.)

I'm glad there was no YouTube video of the beginning of my talk and in the end, it was well-received. And I did learn some things from the experience, but it stuck in my head as an "individual mileage may vary" situation.


----------



## Dakota 400

joelkfla said:


> In 1940, a 4-course steak dinner on the El Capitan cost $1.00, which would be $20.65 in today's dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior Back Cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> content.wisconsinhistory.org



French Fries were even available! I didn't realize that the dining cars of the past had deep fat fryers in the galley. If it could be done then, it certainly ought to be able to be done now.


----------



## niemi24s

Dakota 400 said:


> French Fries were even available! I didn't realize that the dining cars of the past had deep fat fryers in the galley. If it could be done then, it certainly ought to be able to be done now.


_Certainly?_ A deep fat fryer full of boiling hot oil on a train lurching along down a track full of sun kinks???

YGTBSM!!!!!!!!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

mlanoue said:


> It's always fun to look at old menus like that from the pre-Amtrak days. But for me it's a bit of an information overload. It's nice to have choices, but that A La Carte page is a lot. It's amazing they loaded all of that on the train. While I wish Amtrak had maybe a few more choices, I do appreciate the simplicity.


If you think that is too long you should take a look at *this monstrosity*.



niemi24s said:


> _Certainly?_ A deep fat fryer full of boiling hot oil on a train lurching along down a track full of sun kinks???


I have no idea how they did it back then but you could presumably use an air fryer today.



niemi24s said:


> YGTBSM!!!!!!!!


Needs more outrage.


----------



## jiml

DB has french fries available in their dining cars and at-seat service in First Class. I'll admit to being surprised, but then again they also had beer on tap.


----------



## Rambling Robert

John Bredin said:


> Don't know about the dining car for sure, bit I think the railroad itself ran those (vs. Pullman for the sleepers) and diner meals were not included in sleeper fare. I think the diner was for whoever paid to eat in the diner.
> 
> Seat during the day folding into a bunk, with two seats facing becoming two bunks stacked. Just like a roomette now without the fourth wall (or sink or toilet) but a curtain instead.
> 
> Superliners came in the late 1970s.


Thanks for the description.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> But in the 40s to 60s did Coach get to reserve a seat in the dining car)


My only dining car experience in the 1960s was on a NEC train (yes, they used to have dining cars). I was riding coach, and you didn't need reservations. This was also true in the 1970s when I rode the Broadway Limited, and also the Merchants Limited. No dinner reservations needed because the service was so efficient, you could get seated right after leaving Trenton and be finished eating and pay for your meal right before arrival in Newark (at least on the Merchants Limited).

And coach passengers could reserve a seat in the dining car right up until 2019 on the Eastern trains (when they started flex dining) and 2020 on the western trains (when they started flex dining due to Covid.) Of course, they didn't give reservations to coach passengers until after the prepaid sleeper passengers were taken care of, and if the train was full, it was hard for coach passengers to get dinner reservations. Breakfast and lunch needed no reservations, though.


----------



## Steve4031

When I rode Amtrak in the 1970s everyone could eat in the dining cars. There was no waitlist and PA announcements. I remember a trip on the Empire Builder in 1977 where my father and I (I was about 10 years old) waited in line for at least an hour to eat in the dining car. The line snaked back along the hall next to the kitchen and continued through the vestibule probably into the next car. I remember standing in the vestibule in this line for about 20 minutes. Both dutch doors were open to keep the hot 90 degree air circulating. Once seated the food was good. I think I had what they called the Cheeseburge superb back then. Do not remember the deserts. 

On a trip in 1978 on the Broadway Limited, My first solo trip on an overnight train, I remember carefully using my best writing to fill out the check for my dinner. I was was apprehensive because I knew that my poor handwriting, made poorer by writing on a moving train, would not have passed muster at school. The waiter had no problem with my hand writing. 

I made several trips to the west coast on Superliner trains. I do not recall reservations. I do remember making sure to be one of the first in line so that I could be seated by the window and have better choices of food. 

It was in the late 80's or early 90's when meals were included in the cost of sleeping car fares. I don't remember my first time doing this, but this was the point when the employees started filling out the orders slips. And would admonish those who checked of their choices while signing their names.


----------



## toddinde

I’ll try to answer your questions:
1. Dinner reservations did exist, but not on most trains. I remember very well standing in the corridor along the kitchen for seats in the diner. The diner did not differentiate between sleeper and coach passengers. Since the diners were operated by the railroad and sleepers frequently operated by Pullman, the railroad had an interest in selling as many meals as possible, and no interest in discriminating against coach passengers. There were some trains that were all Pullman, or that had coach and Pullman sections with separate dining cars. Santa Fe’s Super Chief and El Capitan which usually ran combined, is an example. 
2. Open section Pullman accommodations, which were considered “standard” were open with seats facing each other, that folded into separate lower and upper berths (not called bunks). The US never had three berths stacked except for an experimental car in the early post war, and in troop sleepers. The European couchette usually has three berths on each side of the compartment. There were many private room Pullman accommodations, none with three berths stacked. The most common were the roomette, bedroom, compartment and drawing room. Variations included the duplex roomette, master room, and later, the Slumbercoach which was essentially a spartan duplex roomette with a narrower bed and sold for the price of a coach ticket with a space charge. In railroad days, there was the rail fare, the Pullman fare which was more, plus the space charge. The more fancy the accommodation, the more the space charge. In addition, a minimum number of base fares were required to occupy a larger room.


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## Dakota 400

niemi24s said:


> _Certainly?_ A deep fat fryer full of boiling hot oil on a train lurching along down a track full of sun kinks???
> 
> YGTBSM!!!!!!!!



That's what the menu said as the potato selection for the Steak Dinner.


----------



## toddinde

Rambling Robert said:


> I’ll be on the CS in a sleeper to visit a special friend. She wants to know if they’re still called Pullman? She’s funny.
> 
> But in the 40s to 60s did Coach get to reserve a seat in the dining car) If in a Pullman did you get a seat and a bunk? We’re they bunks stacked in threes? Twos?
> 
> When did dual level dining cars go in service?


Continuing my answer, the first bilevel dining cars were the Santa Fe Hi Level diners built for the all-coach Chicago-LA El Capitan which entered service in 1955. Amtrak’s Superliner’s are based on the Hi Levels although the sleepers are an Amtrak creation as Santa Fe never had Hi Level sleepers built.


----------



## niemi24s

You seem to have missed the connection between your "certainly" and my comment. You wrote...


> If it could be done then, it certainly ought to be able to be done now.


...to which I commented...


> _Certainly?_ A deep fat fryer full of boiling hot oil on a train lurching along down a track full of sun kinks???



I'm certain OSHA and the Union would have none of that malarkey - unless, of course, you'd like to do your own fries in boiling oil at your table right in front to you.

There were lots of things done in the 1940's that are taboo today and much of that Greatest Generation is no longer with us.


----------



## Kbyrdleroydogg

me_little_me said:


> This whole topic is the subject of many threads but as far as meeting the train, the biggest issue is the unreliability of arrival. I've been on Amtrak trains that have gone from an estimated arrival at a station of a few minutes to getting there an hour later.


Mine last week was three hours late into Chicago from NYC. Even one of the train conductors said we were off the grid now.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Today I am on the “Super Star” (92 - 5/13). It is several hours late. As of this writing (6:36 PM) we just left Richmond, VA. Our SCA delivered snack boxes and bottled water to the room. He said they hope to load some more Flex meals at WAS. The snack box consists of roasted almonds, Cheez-Its, beef jerky stick, crackers, hummus, cheese spread, dried apples and brownie brittle.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

RPA had a good blurb on dining in today’s hotline. The downside being the working group is just starting and has over a year to find solutions. I still think Acela type meals on less popular one night trains such as the Eagle is a viable solution. Once staffing is in place I hope they allow coach passengers in the diners. Amtraks done it for 50 years they don’t need to reinvent the wheel just tweak it.

“Congress has given this Group a little more than a year to report back on what will be done to make food and beverage better, more affordable, and more accessible for every single Amtrak passenger. The group includes representatives of states with state-supported service, Amtrak labor groups with "on the ground" knowledge of where the problems lie, and executives at Amtrak responsible for fixing those problems.”


----------



## railiner

toddinde said:


> Continuing my answer, the first bilevel dining cars were the Santa Fe Hi Level diners built for the all-coach Chicago-LA El Capitan which entered service in 1955. Amtrak’s Superliner’s are based on the Hi Levels although the sleepers are an Amtrak creation as Santa Fe never had Hi Level sleepers built.


While the Hi Level and Superliner diner's were bilevel, the lower level was only for the galley. Passengers only dined on the upper level. The same year the Hi Levels came out, Union Pacific introduced its tri-level Dome Diners. Passenger's could dine on the main level, the lower level, and the upper level dome section...

The prototype for the Dome Diner was first introduced in the 1947, "Train of Tomorrow".









Train of Tomorrow - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Willbridge

railiner said:


> While the Hi Level and Superliner diner's were bilevel, the lower level was only for the galley. Passengers only dined on the upper level. The same year the Hi Levels came out, Union Pacific introduced its tri-level Dome Diners. Passenger's could dine on the main level, the lower level, and the upper level dome section...
> 
> The prototype for the Dome Diner was first introduced in the 1947, "Train of Tomorrow".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Train of Tomorrow - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


My first meal in a diner was lunch with my family in the Astra-Dome on the Pool train to Seattle. We saw an elk in the Mounds area. On our return we had dinner in the dome.

The premiere item on the UP Portland<>Seattle train was a steak sandwich with big home-style french fries. Lucius Beebe once called it the best economy dining car menu item in the country. I enjoyed it for dinner in September 1967.

The Astra-Dome equipment drove the GN and NP traffic people crazy. Passengers for the Pool line would insist that they wanted to ride on the train with the domes. Unfortunately, the diner as I recollect was the first to be withdrawn, a result of corrosion.


----------



## Rambling Robert

I’ve been thinking of a company I’d create called RAILFUBE. It would include the entire Amtrak system.

Say for the LSL. Click LSL West [BOS CHI] and the app says “Diner hour in Albany”. “There are thirty vetted Albany restaurants that delver - would you like a list of all or by type”. You chose Indian “there are three vetted Indian restaurants that will deliver to your rail-car.” You have picture ids to make it easy if necessary to pickup at platform/car#••

RAILFUBE earns 10% for vetting, and keeping the restaurant list active.

100 users x 10% (say $20 average) = $200
And another $200 from west to east.

maybe $400 per day for just the LSL . Apply on all overnight trains - maybe $4000 - $8000 day revenue for RAILFUBE.


----------



## toddinde

niemi24s said:


> You seem to have missed the connection between your "certainly" and my comment. You wrote...
> ...to which I commented...
> 
> 
> I'm certain OSHA and the Union would have none of that malarkey - unless, of course, you'd like to do your own fries in boiling oil at your table right in front to you.
> 
> There were lots of things done in the 1940's that are taboo today and much of that Greatest Generation is no longer with us.


A fat fryer is totally unnecessary, and many people are eating healthier. As you said, it isn’t 1940 anymore. Diets have radically changed.


----------



## MARC Rider

toddinde said:


> A fat fryer is totally unnecessary, and many people are eating healthier. As you said, it isn’t 1940 anymore. Diets have radically changed.


Even if you don't want to eat healthier, frozen french fries have been around since the 1940s, and can be prepared very easily in an oven.


----------



## Mailliw

MARC Rider said:


> Even if you don't want to eat healthier, frozen french fries have been around since the 1940s, and can be prepared very easily in an oven.


But would Amtrak really lower its high culinary standards so far as to serve frozen French fries reheated in an oven?


----------



## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> Even if you don't want to eat healthier, frozen french fries have been around since the 1940s, and can be prepared very easily in an oven.



Maybe that's what they were doing in the galleys of the dining cars of the 1940's. 



toddinde said:


> Diets have radically changed.



Oh? "Would you like Fries with that?" Based on my observations, the usual answer is "Yes".


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Mailliw said:


> But would Amtrak really lower its high culinary standards so far as to serve frozen French fries reheated in an oven?


But reheat them in an air fryer and they come out pretty good.


----------



## zephyr17

Oh, Lord. They chips are fine. I an just happy the dining options on the western trains are good again.

I do find it interesting that VIA manages to have a toaster without burning the diner down, though.


----------



## MARC Rider

zephyr17 said:


> Oh, Lord. They chips are fine. I an just happy the dining options on the western trains are good again.
> 
> I do find it interesting that VIA manages to have a toaster without burning the diner down, though.


Amtrak has toasters in the Amfleet 1 cafe cars. It just depends whether the attendant is able to take the time to use it. Back before Covid, when they had bagels in the cafe cars, I regularly got them toasted if the cafe car wasn't too busy. Same with the hot dogs and burgers. They'd take the burger/hot dog out of the package, toast the bun and nuke the meat. I wish they'd do that with the breakfast sandwiches. I hate microwaved bread.


----------



## lordsigma

Last night's Crescent 19(23) was operating with a VL2 diner instead of an Am Cafe/Lounge as observed on Spartanburg railfan cam. Would be interested to see how they managed cafe service out of the new diners. Also interesting to see if this is something new they are trying or just a once off. 20(23) had the AmCan. Will have to check Friday and see if 19(26) runs with a V2.


----------



## OBS

MARC Rider said:


> Amtrak has toasters in the Amfleet 1 cafe cars. It just depends whether the attendant is able to take the time to use it. Back before Covid, when they had bagels in the cafe cars, I regularly got them toasted if the cafe car wasn't too busy. Same with the hot dogs and burgers. They'd take the burger/hot dog out of the package, toast the bun and nuke the meat. I wish they'd do that with the breakfast sandwiches. I hate microwaved bread.


Not correct. The Acela's have toasters. The Amfleet I cafe cars have the small convection ovens which if heated to 450 and left operating can be used as a pseudo toaster if the ovens were working and if they were clean.


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## mediaman

lordsigma said:


> Last night's Crescent 19(23) was operating with a VL2 diner instead of an Am Cafe/Lounge as observed on Spartanburg railfan cam. Would be interested to see how they managed cafe service out of the new diners. Also interesting to see if this is something new they are trying or just a once off. 20(23) had the AmCan. Will have to check Friday and see if 19(26) runs with a V2.


I was on the Crescent 19 (23) with the VL2 Diner. When I boarded the train in WAS, I was so excited to see the diner that I didn’t realize there was no cafe car. When I asked the SCA she replied that there was an equipment shortage and they would have to run the cafe out of the diner. It appeared they served coach passengers from the kitchen door at the end of the car. We asked to eat our meal in the diner, and I was surprised at how many other sleeping car passengers were doing the same. It was great to be in the diner, probably made our flex meals taste better!! The cafe car attendant and the two SCAs made the best of it getting everyone served with smiles on their faces.


----------



## Amtrak709

mediaman said:


> I was on the Crescent 19 (23) with the VL2 Diner. When I boarded the train in WAS, I was so excited to see the diner that I didn’t realize there was no cafe car. When I asked the SCA she replied that there was an equipment shortage and they would have to run the cafe out of the diner. It appeared they served coach passengers from the kitchen door at the end of the car. We asked to eat our meal in the diner, and I was surprised at how many other sleeping car passengers were doing the same. It was great to be in the diner, probably made our flex meals taste better!! The cafe car attendant and the two SCAs made the best of it getting everyone served with smiles on their faces.


Thanks very much, mediaman, for your post. I am glad to see a positive comment about the Crescent. As a frequent traveler on the Crescent for the past 22 years and as one (me) who has been very critical of its operations since COVID, your comments are encouraging. As a railfan for my entire 74 years of life I have tried to be tolerant for Amtrak's inconsistencies--realizing that COVID has had its effect. Will look forward to my trip ATN-WAS-ATN next month.


----------



## ehbowen

niemi24s said:


> _Certainly?_ A deep fat fryer full of boiling hot oil on a train lurching along down a track full of sun kinks???
> 
> YGTBSM!!!!!!!!


Hey, they used to have barbers on board some trains who would give you a haircut and a shave. With a razor. At 90+ mph. The railroads bragged about it, too!


----------



## cassie225

So glad to hear a good comment about the Crescent also, just waiting a little longer til I ride her again.


----------



## Steve4031

ehbowen said:


> Hey, they used to have barbers on board some trains who would give you a haircut and a shave. With a razor. At 90+ mph. The railroads bragged about it, too!


How rough was the track back then. I remember reading that the 20th Century Limited had a barber. I can think of a few places between Englewood and south Bend that would result in decapitation if someone tried to shave with a razor.


----------



## ehbowen

Steve4031 said:


> How rough was the track back then. I remember reading that the 20th Century Limited had a barber. I can think of a few places between Englewood and south Bend that would result in decapitation if someone tried to shave with a razor.


That's kind of the point. The existence of an on-board barber was an implicit advertisement that, "Our track is so smooth that you'll be willing to let a complete stranger hold a razor to your throat anywhere on it!" Of course, for some like Rock Island, that might have been a bit of a stretch at many points....

To be honest, however, as far as I'm aware onboard barbers generally used safety razors. Still had a blade that could do damage, though!


----------



## lordsigma

mediaman said:


> I was on the Crescent 19 (23) with the VL2 Diner. When I boarded the train in WAS, I was so excited to see the diner that I didn’t realize there was no cafe car. When I asked the SCA she replied that there was an equipment shortage and they would have to run the cafe out of the diner. It appeared they served coach passengers from the kitchen door at the end of the car. We asked to eat our meal in the diner, and I was surprised at how many other sleeping car passengers were doing the same. It was great to be in the diner, probably made our flex meals taste better!! The cafe car attendant and the two SCAs made the best of it getting everyone served with smiles on their faces.


Was the diner seating for sleeping car passengers only?


----------



## daybeers

ehbowen said:


> Hey, they used to have barbers on board some trains who would give you a haircut and a shave. With a razor. At 90+ mph. The railroads bragged about it, too!


That's so cool. I doubt there are many places today where track is smooth enough to allow that. In my area, maybe the Hartford Line New Haven-Springfield, and the Shore Line New Haven-Providence (the section to Boston is rougher). Certainly nothing else on the NEC.


----------



## mediaman

lordsigma said:


> Was the diner seating for sleeping car passengers only?


I was only in there for dinner, during which they reopened the 'cafe' to serve coach passengers from the kitchen door. I saw no coach passengers come to the seating area of the diner.


----------



## lordsigma

mediaman said:


> I was only in there for dinner, during which they reopened the 'cafe' to serve coach passengers from the kitchen door. I saw no coach passengers come to the seating area of the diner.


Was it the door facing the coaches are the same door facing the seating.


----------



## mediaman

lordsigma said:


> Was it the door facing the coaches are the same door facing the seating.


The door facing the coaches was the one used for serving coach passengers.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Unfortunately 19 (26) and 20(26) both did not have a VL2 diner. (Both did have the regular cafe car).


----------



## Brian Battuello

When my son and I took the VIA Ocean, the waiter asked us how we would like our breakfast eggs. My 6 year old son said "soft boiled". The waiter disappeared and returned shortly with the news that the chef did, indeed, know how to make a soft boiled egg. He was served a perfect 3 minute egg in a glass with toast sticks. 

Take that, Amtrak...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Brian Battuello said:


> When my son and I took the VIA Ocean, the waiter asked us how we would like our breakfast eggs. My 6 year old son said "soft boiled". The waiter disappeared and returned shortly with the news that the chef did, indeed, know how to make a soft boiled egg. He was served a perfect 3 minute egg in a glass with toast sticks.
> 
> Take that, Amtrak...


The Ocean hasn’t had a Chef for many years. The food is plated and served in a classy manner, but it is all pre-made and heated on board now.


----------



## MARC Rider

I was just looking at the Man in Seat 61. On business class (the top-level service) on the Beijing - Hong Kong HSR, all they serve is the same microwaved flex-style meal that they sell to first-class and second-class passengers. Nonetheless, 8 hours for a 1,500-mile trip is pretty impressive, and business class has lie-flat seats.


----------



## Brian Battuello

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Ocean hasn’t had a Chef for many years. The food is plated and served in a classy manner, but it is all pre-made and heated on board now.



It was in April 2017. For some lucky reason, the regular Ocean consist had gone in for service, and was replaced by a spare Canadian consist. I guess the Canadian diner came with a Canadian chef. 

The egg:




Does anyone have a memory of getting a soft boiled egg on Amtrak? I bet most of the Superliner chefs know how to make one!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Brian Battuello said:


> It was in April 2017. For some lucky reason, the regular Ocean consist had gone in for service, and was replaced by a spare Canadian consist. I guess the Canadian diner came with a Canadian chef.
> 
> The egg:
> Does anyone have a memory of getting a soft boiled egg on Amtrak? I bet most of the Superliner chefs know how to make one!


Oh interesting! I think during the holidays they will use heritage equipment on the ocean as needed as well. Maybe they bring a chef along for those trips as well. 

I’m not sure if Amtrak chefs can boil eggs if they wanted to, they probably don’t have anything to boil them in.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

A post over on trainorders claims a recent trip on the Capitol they were told SCA had to deliver all meals to the rooms. The tables in the CCC were for “active eating and drinking only” and they were not allowed to bring an iPad into the CCC car. 

Remember, this is the CCC car that is supposed to be the “sleeper lounge”


----------



## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> A post over on trainorders claims a recent trip on the Capitol they were told SCA had to deliver all meals to the rooms. The tables in the CCC were for “active eating and drinking only” and they were not allowed to bring an iPad into the CCC car.
> 
> Remember, this is the CCC car that is supposed to be the “sleeper lounge”


They really going head over heels to make trains worth traveling again.


----------



## IndyLions

Rasputin said:


> They really going head over heels to make trains worth traveling again.


Sounds like another crew making it up as they go along…


----------



## danasgoodstuff

I have just returned from a month-long trip from Oregon to Fla and back by rail. The food west of Chicago is indeed quite good, but the food east of there is nowhere near as bad as it's been made out to be. A step or two down for sure, but hardly inedible.


----------



## Christian Ferguson

mediaman said:


> I was on the Crescent 19 (23) with the VL2 Diner. When I boarded the train in WAS, I was so excited to see the diner that I didn’t realize there was no cafe car. When I asked the SCA she replied that there was an equipment shortage and they would have to run the cafe out of the diner. It appeared they served coach passengers from the kitchen door at the end of the car. We asked to eat our meal in the diner, and I was surprised at how many other sleeping car passengers were doing the same. It was great to be in the diner, probably made our flex meals taste better!! The cafe car attendant and the two SCAs made the best of it getting everyone served with smiles on their faces.


What's a "SCA"? That's some dopey kids music or is that SKA?


----------



## jis

Christian Ferguson said:


> What's a "SCA"? That's some dopey kids music or is that SKA?


SCA = Sleeping Car Attendant


----------



## joelkfla

Christian Ferguson said:


> What's a "SCA"? That's some dopey kids music or is that SKA?


Most abbreviations & acronyms can be found here:





Commonly Used Abbreviations and Terms


This topic has been opened to provide a glossary of various abbreviations and terms that are used by AU members. Like many other subjects, Amtrak and rail travel can have a language unto itself that, for the uninitiated, might be baffling and a bit intimidating. The posts that follow define...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

On a lighter note 









U.S.: A Dining Car Primer; the importance of dining and lounge cars to the financial health of any train


Editor’s Note: This article originally appeared on this platform on December 10, 2020. Illustrations have been added to this presentation. – Corridorrail.com Editor By J. Bruce Richards…




corridorrail.com


----------



## joelkfla

Apparently, the free beverages policy on Flex Dining trains has changed.

The Silver Service Flex menu dated 10/21 said: "Complimentary beverages are available *throughout your journey*."

The menu dated 05/22 now says: "Complimentary beverages are available *during all meal periods*."


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> Apparently, the free beverages policy on Flex Dining trains has changed.
> 
> The Silver Service Flex menu dated 10/21 said: "Complimentary beverages are available *throughout your journey*."
> 
> The menu dated 05/22 now says: "Complimentary beverages are available *during all meal periods*."


Ahh. Sneaky. That was one of the only “positives” about flex dining.


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ahh. Sneaky. That was one of the only “positives” about flex dining.


There is a positive?


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

That’s a huge negative. Cups of coffee and cans of coke at bulk rate probably cost Amtrak 25 cents. Like everything else with Amtrak whether or not they actually charge you for them is another question.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> There is a positive?


On paper, having access to a “sleeper lounge” space and having soft drinks available throughout the journey are positives. 

But if those are being taken away, there is no positive at all. 



danasgoodstuff said:


> the food east of there is nowhere near as bad as it's been made out to be. A step or two down for sure, but hardly inedible.



I think the quality of the entrees has gone up a little bit. The 2 entrees I had when the flex service first started were really really bad. The beef dish was definitely borderline inedible.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> On paper, having access to a “sleeper lounge” space and having soft drinks available throughout the journey are positives.
> 
> But if those are being taken away, there is no positive at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the quality of the entrees has gone up a little bit. The 2 entrees I had when the flex service first started were really really bad. The beef dish was definitely borderline inedible.


I would agree with the improvement - I personally think the current beef and chicken options are much better than the previous - when heated properly.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the quality of the entrees has gone up a little bit. The 2 entrees I had when the flex service first started were really really bad. The beef dish was definitely borderline inedible.


I did notice changes on the entrees.

The plant-based Enchiladas entree has been replaced by Thai Red Curry Street Noodles with Plant Based Meatballs. The Sesame Glazed Salmon has been replaced by Roasted Atlantic Salmon & Seared Shrimp. And the Penne Pasta & Meatballs is now Baked Ziti & Meatballs; I don't know whether that last one is actually a change or just a rename.

I enjoyed the Enchiladas and the old salmon dish; I hope the replacements also please me.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I did notice changes on the entrees.
> 
> The plant-based *Enchiladas *entree has been replaced by *Thai Red Curry Street Noodles with Plant Based Meatballs*. The *Sesame Glazed Salmon* has been replaced by *Roasted Atlantic Salmon & Seared Shrimp*. And the *Penne Pasta & Meatballs* is now *Baked Ziti & Meatballs*; I don't know whether that last one is actually a change or just a rename.
> 
> I enjoyed the Enchiladas and the old salmon dish; I hope the replacements also please me.


I also hope that the new Salmon and Shrimp is at least as good as the old Salmon dish, which was my go to dish, was. The Thai Red Curry sounds intriguing and I will give it a try when I travel on the Super Star near end of June.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

The Thai Red Curry - that's some spicy (not)meatballs!


----------



## TheCrescent

If Flexible Dining meals could be served on plates, that would help: not in plastic wrap with the labels still on.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> I did notice changes on the entrees.
> 
> The plant-based *Enchiladas *entree has been replaced by *Thai Red Curry Street Noodles with Plant Based Meatballs*. The *Sesame Glazed Salmon* has been replaced by *Roasted Atlantic Salmon & Seared Shrimp*. And the *Penne Pasta & Meatballs* is now *Baked Ziti & Meatballs*; I don't know whether that last one is actually a change or just a rename.
> 
> I enjoyed the Enchiladas and the old salmon dish; I hope the replacements also please me.


I wish Amtrak would take into account various diets. Adding shrimp to the one seafood dish is not a good idea, many don’t eat shellfish for various reasons. 

Enchiladas could be an excellent vegetarian and gluten free dish, I doubt the noodles are gluten free which leads gluten free vegetarians with nothing to order.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Does anyone know if the Eastbound Sunset Limited Serves dinner on its last day before its evening arrival into NOL? The SL Route page (linked below) shows lunch being the last meal service, but that seems odd due to its late arrival. I was wondering if anybody had any first hand knowledge with this. 










Sunset Limited Train | Amtrak


The Amtrak Sunset Limited train takes you between Louisiana and California through Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.




www.amtrak.com


----------



## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> If Flexible Dining meals could be served on plates, that would help: not in plastic wrap with the labels still on.



They've sometimes done just that (sort of):






A Flex Dining dinner served to me on the Cardinal in November 2019. Yes, served to me, as in "I sat down at the table, and a waiter brought the food to me."

(It should be pointed out that there were only 12 passengers in the sleeper that evening, and the coach attendant was helping out the cafe attendant.)


----------



## Rasputin

trimetbusfan said:


> Does anyone know if the Eastbound Sunset Limited Serves dinner on its last day before its evening arrival into NOL? The SL Route page (linked below) shows lunch being the last meal service, but that seems odd due to its late arrival. I was wondering if anybody had any first hand knowledge with this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunset Limited Train | Amtrak
> 
> 
> The Amtrak Sunset Limited train takes you between Louisiana and California through Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtrak.com


I do not have any first hand knowledge but I am quite sure, given the 9 p.m. or so arrival, that the eastbound Sunset would serve dinner before arrival in New Orleans. Maybe someone would know if it is a full dinner based on the menu or some abbreviated form.

I would say that the route guide probably dates from 2012 or before so it is unreliable in that aspect. There was a substantial change in the eastbound Sunset schedule around April or May of 2012 if I recall correctly. Prior to that the eastbound Sunset would depart Tucson about 1 a.m., reach El Paso at breakfast time and eventually reach New Orleans mid-afternoon.


----------



## saxpower

joelkfla said:


> Apparently, the free beverages policy on Flex Dining trains has changed.
> 
> The Silver Service Flex menu dated 10/21 said: "Complimentary beverages are available *throughout your journey*."
> 
> The menu dated 05/22 now says: "Complimentary beverages are available *during all meal periods*."



Assuming this means the drinks are available throughout the time a meal is being served, this means the :free beverage" schedule is as follows] (based on the meal times listed on Amtrak's flex dining page):

6:30- 10 AM- beverage available with breakfast
10-11:30 AM no beverages available between breakfast and lunch
11:30AM-3PM beverage available for lunch
3-5 PM no beverage availabile between lunch and dinner
5-9:30 PM beverage available for dinner. 
9:30 PM-6:30 AM no beverage avialable between dinner and breakfast. 

So I guess the thing to do is ask for another beverage aroud 10 AM (end of breakfast), 3 PM (end of lunch), and 9:30 PM (end of dinner). 
I assume you could _buy _one in the cafe car, but that kind of defeats the purpose of sleeper benefits. (I wonder if the cafe will give you a cup of ice if you've brought some drinks with you).

Free beverages are available for 11.5 hours each day and unavailable for 12.5 hours. Admittedly, people all likely sleeping for a good chunk of the overnight period, so you can get free drinks most waking hours. Still, no reason to drop the benefit. If they want to give the sleeper attendant a little break from running around getting people food and drinks, they could still just ask passangers to go to the cafe car and show their ticket.


----------



## Sidney

saxpower said:


> Assuming this means the drinks are available throughout the time a meal is being served, this means the :free beverage" schedule is as follows] (based on the meal times listed on Amtrak's flex dining page):
> 
> 6:30- 10 AM- beverage available with breakfast
> 10-11:30 AM no beverages available between breakfast and lunch
> 11:30AM-3PM beverage available for lunch
> 3-5 PM no beverage availabile between lunch and dinner
> 5-9:30 PM beverage available for dinner.
> 9:30 PM-6:30 AM no beverage avialable between dinner and breakfast.
> 
> So I guess the thing to do is ask for another beverage aroud 10 AM (end of breakfast), 3 PM (end of lunch), and 9:30 PM (end of dinner).
> I assume you could _buy _one in the cafe car, but that kind of defeats the purpose of sleeper benefits. (I wonder if the cafe will give you a cup of ice if you've brought some drinks with you).
> 
> Free beverages are available for 11.5 hours each day and unavailable for 12.5 hours. Admittedly, people all likely sleeping for a good chunk of the overnight period, so you can get free drinks most waking hours. Still, no reason to drop the benefit. If they want to give the sleeper attendant a little break from running around getting people food and drinks, they could still just ask passangers to go to the cafe car and show their ticket.


I always get ice from the cafe car. I never ask my SCA to get it for me. I remember when ice was available in every sleeper.


----------



## TheCrescent

First class on planes = unlimited drinks (including alcohol). 

So people who fly first class and then take Amtrak will be surprised.


----------



## daybeers

TheCrescent said:


> First class on planes = unlimited drinks (including alcohol).


As it should be, like Acela First.


----------



## fillyjonk

joelkfla said:


> I did notice changes on the entrees.
> 
> The plant-based *Enchiladas *entree has been replaced by *Thai Red Curry Street Noodles with Plant Based Meatballs*. The *Sesame Glazed Salmon* has been replaced by *Roasted Atlantic Salmon & Seared Shrimp*. And the *Penne Pasta & Meatballs* is now *Baked Ziti & Meatballs*; I don't know whether that last one is actually a change or just a rename.
> 
> I enjoyed the Enchiladas and the old salmon dish; I hope the replacements also please me.


the pasta dish is different. I traveled up on May 11 and back on May 27th. Got the pasta both times. On the way up it was bigger, fewer meatballs (IIRC) and ridged pointy pasta (penne); on the way back there was more sauce and cheese, the meatballs seemed smaller, and the pasta were shorter, blunt-edged tubes (so, ziti, I guess). 

It was okay, but definitely not in the league with the dearly departed flat iron steak. 

The Texas Eagle between MIN and BNL is the train I take and it seems like no one cares about the SAS to CHI run of it, seems like we're always gonna be understaffed (there was apparently only a conductor, a car attendant - maybe the same guy for sleepers and coaches?, and one food-services employee on the whole train. The food-services guy pleaded with people to be patient as he was the only one on staff for both sleeper car meals and selling cafe snacks), we're not getting the SSL back, and we're stuck with flex meals. 

And yet, a space in the sleeper costs a good bit more than it did in the before-times. (Everything in this sad old world is worse now that covid has been (and still is) a thing)


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Membership of RPA designee is almost written into the regulation, not quite, but almost. And of course I don't know who RPA will designate officially for sure. So this cannot exactly run away from us completely, or well at least there is reason to be optimistic.


I can't confirm for sure who the official rep is, but I believe it is Madison Butler, *who was a chef, and also designed IT stuff for restaurants* before working at RPA. They are going to have the right attitude. Whether Amtrak listens or not, who knows.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> I can't confirm for sure who the official rep is, but I believe it is Madison Butler, *who was a chef, and also designed IT stuff for restaurants* before working at RPA. They are going to have the right attitude. Whether Amtrak listens or not, who knows.


Yes. Madi is the Rep from RPA.


----------



## saxpower

TheCrescent said:


> First class on planes = unlimited drinks (including alcohol).
> 
> So people who fly first class and then take Amtrak will be surprised.


Then again, with what airline crew deal with (likely not helped by alcohol), free unlimited alcoholic drinks may be asking for trouble. I'm not saying don't _serve_ alcohol, or not to provide free drinks with meals... but unlimited may be asking for trouble.


----------



## Rasputin

saxpower said:


> Then again, with what airline crew deal with (likely not helped by alcohol), free unlimited alcoholic drinks may be asking for trouble. I'm not saying don't _serve_ alcohol, or not to provide free drinks with meals... but unlimited may be asking for trouble.


I have seen drunks on trains (worse than snakes on planes). It is not to be recommended. Unlimited beverages are also a sure sign that someone is going to pee the bed sooner or late. Everything in moderation.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Rasputin said:


> I have seen drunks on trains (worse than snakes on planes). It is not to be recommended. Unlimited beverages are also a sure sign that someone is going to pee the bed sooner or late. Everything in moderation.


Just on my last trip on the EB the crew had to kick off a pax that got very intoxicated in a town in the middle of nowhere. (Not even at an Amtrak Station..)


----------



## TheCrescent

saxpower said:


> Then again, with what airline crew deal with (likely not helped by alcohol), free unlimited alcoholic drinks may be asking for trouble. I'm not saying don't _serve_ alcohol, or not to provide free drinks with meals... but unlimited may be asking for trouble.


Fair point but on a plane I am usually offered a drink before takeoff and then once (or multiple times) after the plane is at cruising altitude. 

It would be nice to be able to have a drink when I first board the train and am settled in my sleeping car room, instead of having to wait a few hours for a drink to be given at dinner. 

And, no, I can’t even go to the cafe car to buy a drink since the cafe car is closed when the train leaves its originating station, and for a while after that.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

saxpower said:


> Then again, with what airline crew deal with (likely not helped by alcohol), free unlimited alcoholic drinks may be asking for trouble. I'm not saying don't _serve_ alcohol, or not to provide free drinks with meals... but unlimited may be asking for trouble.


The last time I flew AA the FA said that they only serve alcohol to first class now and don’t sell it to coach passengers because of all the craziness. 

I think 1 drink per meal would be nice on Amtrak. And unlimited soft drinks.


----------



## jis

There was a time in the 80s and 90s AFAIR when Sleeping Car passengers were greeted with a small bottle of wine in their room. I seem to recall experiencing that a few times. But of course, those days are no more...


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> There was a time in the 80s and 90s AFAIR when Sleeping Car passengers were greeted with a small bottle of wine in their room. I seem to recall experiencing that a few times. But of course, those days are no more...


Inglenook - I still have pictures. They later switched to Fetzer.


----------



## Dakota 400

jis said:


> There was a time in the 80s and 90s AFAIR when Sleeping Car passengers were greeted with a small bottle of wine in their room. I seem to recall experiencing that a few times. But of course, those days are no more...



I remember that as well and appreciated the amenity. Used those small bottles as my "bon voyage" drink.

I understand the reason, but, it still irritates me when the Lounge car closes while the train is in a major station, i.e. Washington on the Silver Meteor (and, I assume, Silver Star). It really irritates me that the Lounge does not open until the train is approaching Alexandria. By then. a good sized line of guests have formed waiting to spend money and be served.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> There was a time in the 80s and 90s AFAIR when Sleeping Car passengers were greeted with a small bottle of wine in their room. I seem to recall experiencing that a few times. But of course, those days are no more...


When I rode the starlight and builder in 2013 they both offered complimentary welcome bottle of champagne or Sparkling Cider as a “welcome aboard” for sleeping car passengers. 

Of course, both also offered free wine tastings as well! 

Those were the days!


----------



## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> Inglenook - I still have pictures. They later switched to Fetzer.



Yes, it was Inglenook. I was pleased because that was a label that I was purchasing much of the time. Their Rose was very good. Now, it's no longer being made. (When I learned of the difficulty of getting the wine, but kept two bottles in reserve and still have them.)


----------



## TheCrescent

Dakota 400 said:


> I remember that as well and appreciated the amenity. Used those small bottles as my "bon voyage" drink.
> 
> I understand the reason, but, it still irritates me when the Lounge car closes while the train is in a major station, i.e. Washington on the Silver Meteor (and, I assume, Silver Star). It really irritates me that the Lounge does not open until the train is approaching Alexandria. By then. a good sized line of guests have formed waiting to spend money and be served.


And what is the reason?

The lounge car on the Crescent is closed to coach passengers between about 5pm and 7pm. 

Is there any wonder that Amtrak can’t make money, when it closes its sole food service car at dinner time for a large portion of its customers?


----------



## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> When I rode the starlight and builder in 2013 they both offered complimentary welcome bottle of champagne or Sparkling Cider as a “welcome aboard” for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> Of course, both also offered free wine tastings as well!
> 
> Those were the days!


I guess you lucky people must have drunk the place dry and put the service in the red. When I rode the Starlight in 2015 and 2016, there was no welcome aboard bottle in the sleeping cars and the wine tasting costs $7.


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> I guess you lucky people must have drunk the place dry and put the service in the red. When I rode the Starlight in 2015 and 2016, there was no welcome aboard bottle in the sleeping cars and the wine tasting costs $7.


That was the first round of Mica driven calamity, but let us not rehash that sorry phase again. Let us focus on how to get rid of the last remaining vestiges of the doings of that individual.


----------



## Amtrak709

jis said:


> That was the first round of Mica driven calamity, but let us not rehash that sorry phase again. Let us focus on how to get rid of the last remaining vestiges of the doings of that individual.


Well said and I agree, jis. I shutter to think about the day in the late 1980's when I met <he who shall remain nameless>(before he was a congressman) and invited him to speak in DeLand to a railfan group we were forming at the fire-refurbished Amtrak station there. I have never forgotten that day but I have no recollection of his speaking. I don't guess I can be held responsible for the "calamity"--as you said--he created. Enough said!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> The lounge car on the Crescent is closed to coach passengers between about 5pm and 7pm.
> 
> Is there any wonder that Amtrak can’t make money, when it closes its sole food service car at dinner time for a large portion of its customers?


Agreed. There is no reason that Amtrak can’t run like every other business in America and let multiple staff members handle sales. When the LSA goes on break, one of the dining car servers should cover.


----------



## TEREB

lordsigma said:


> I would agree with the improvement - I personally think the current beef and chicken options are much better than the previous - when heated properly.


Magic words. “when heated properly”.


----------



## TEREB

joelkfla said:


> Apparently, the free beverages policy on Flex Dining trains has changed.
> 
> The Silver Service Flex menu dated 10/21 said: "Complimentary beverages are available *throughout your journey*."
> 
> The menu dated 05/22 now says: "Complimentary beverages are available *during all meal periods*."


Does this mean there is no longer a complementary cocktail or wine?


----------



## Cal

TheCrescent said:


> And what is the reason?
> 
> The lounge car on the Crescent is closed to coach passengers between about 5pm and 7pm.
> 
> Is there any wonder that Amtrak can’t make money, when it closes its sole food service car at dinner time for a large portion of its customers?


Maybe so the LSA can handle flex meals?


----------



## daybeers

I feel like it's just talking about non-alcoholic beverages since those were unlimited at any time, but I could be wrong.


----------



## fillyjonk

I was asked if I wanted an alcoholic beverage with my dinner both times on the train recently. (I ordered ginger ale, I suppose they expected I was going to mix something with it? I don't drink so all I wanted was the ginger ale....)


----------



## west point

could closing the lounge car be due to restocking?


----------



## TheCrescent

west point said:


> could closing the lounge car be due to restocking?


I guess so although it seems to open only maybe 30-60 minutes after the train leaves its originating station and I don’t understand why any work done then wasn’t done before the train left.


----------



## amtrakp42

Sidney said:


> I always get ice from the cafe car. I never ask my SCA to get it for me. I remember when ice was available in every sleeper.


I always have SCA get ice. They usually have those cardboard plastic coated ice buckets. Then I put a towel over it to last most of the night. Altho last July on the Zephyr they would bring two glasses of ice with lids due to covit I guess.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

saxpower said:


> Then again, with what airline crew deal with (likely not helped by alcohol), free unlimited alcoholic drinks may be asking for trouble. I'm not saying don't _serve_ alcohol, or not to provide free drinks with meals... but unlimited may be asking for trouble.


When US airlines stopped serving alcohol passengers reacted by drinking at the airport instead. Downing several drinks just before boarding did not improve anything, and airport bars are less likely (and less invested) to stop someone from overindulging, which ended up making things worse for everyone.



trimetbusfan said:


> Just on my last trip on the EB the crew had to kick off a pax that got very intoxicated in a town in the middle of nowhere. (Not even at an Amtrak Station..)


Another example of how _not_ serving "unlimited" alcohol does _not_ stop people from getting drunk.



crescent-zephyr said:


> The last time I flew AA the FA said that they only serve alcohol to first class now and don’t sell it to coach passengers because of all the craziness. I think 1 drink per meal would be nice on Amtrak. And unlimited soft drinks.


AA's current policy is that alcohol is free in First Class (or MCE) and available for sale in coach. That being said I've found that AA staff sometimes make up their own rules just like Amtrak staff are known to do.


----------



## PVD

TheCrescent said:


> I guess so although it seems to open only maybe 30-60 minutes after the train leaves its originating station and I don’t understand why any work done then wasn’t done before the train left.


Do they pay the staff to do that work before departure? That has been a real issue towards the end of the trips, since the obs go off clock. Nobody can be reasonably expected to work off the clock as a standard procedure.


----------



## west point

TheCrescent said:


> I guess so although it seems to open only maybe 30-60 minutes after the train leaves its originating station and I don’t understand why any work done then wasn’t done before the train left.


That is no excuse by Amtrak.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Do they pay the staff to do that work before departure? That has been a real issue towards the end of the trips, since the obs go off clock. Nobody can be reasonably expected to work off the clock as a standard procedure.


Customers never wrote or signed the contract that prevents staff being paid when a train or plane is stopped. If the staff agreed to those terms (presumably in exchange for some other benefit) how is that our fault? Do people think nobody works unpaid hours outside the travel industry? It's standard procedure because they formally agreed to it.


----------



## west point

Do OBS persons report to work one hour before scheduled departure from originating station? SAS is a special case with change of OBS staff,


----------



## joelkfla

TEREB said:


> Does this mean there is no longer a complementary cocktail or wine?


No, the menu says alcoholic beverages are available for purchase, but the first is free at dinner. 

I'm on 92 approaching Petersburg right now. 

I tried the salmon and shrimp for dinner last night. The fish was OK but a bit dry. I could taste the lemon in the sauce at first bite, but it faded as I continued and the salmon just tasted like salmon. The 2 shrimps were fine. The rice was tasty but a bit mushy. 


I just had the Thai curry noodles for lunch. I would definitely get this again, butkbeware: I found it surprisingly spicy. To my uncultured tastes, I think it was just black pepper spicy, not anything exotic. The noodles seemed to be ordinarily linguine, not rice noodles or anything fancy. There were a few big chunks of carrot and broccoli. The plant-based meatballs were very tasty, and both speecy-spicy and very sturdy. Do not attempt to cut them with a fork. Sorry, I forgot to snap the noodles before starting. My phone seems to be giving things a yellowish tint.


----------



## joelkfla

Duplicate post due to fighting with Amtrak wifi and vanishing cell service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> No, the menu says alcoholic beverages are available for purchase, but the first is free at dinner.
> 
> I'm on 92 approaching Petersburg right now.
> 
> I tried the salmon and shrimp for dinner last night. The fish was OK but a bit dry. I could taste the lemon in the sauce at first bite, but it faded as I continued and the salmon just tasted like salmon. The 2 shrimps were fine. The rice was tasty but a bit mushy.
> View attachment 28579
> 
> I just had the Thai curry noodles for lunch. I would definitely get this again, butkbeware: I found it surprisingly spicy. To my uncultured tastes, I think it was just black pepper spicy, not anything exotic. The noodles seemed to be ordinarily linguine, not rice noodles or anything fancy. There were a few big chunks of carrot and broccoli. The plant-based meatballs were very tasty, and both speecy-spicy and very sturdy. Do not attempt to cut them with a fork. Sorry, I forgot to snap the noodles before starting. My phone seems to be giving things a yellowish tint.View attachment 28580


They certainly don't look any better than the entrees I was served. :-/ 

How's the ability to use the “sleeper Lounge” on your train?


----------



## PVD

Devil's Advocate said:


> Customers never wrote or signed the contract that prevents staff being paid when a train or plane is stopped. If the staff agreed to those terms (presumably in exchange for some other benefit) how is that our fault? Do people think nobody works unpaid hours outside the travel industry? It's standard procedure because they formally agreed to it.


If they agreed not to be paid for time after the arrival, then you cannot expect them to do work. I doubt they agreed to unpaid time, it is usually contrary to FLSA or NRLA provisions. Not the passengers' fault, an Amtrak problem, but people who work unpaid hours are usually getting screwed by people who are typically violating the law.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> If they agreed not to be paid for time after the arrival, then you cannot expect them to do work. I doubt they agreed to unpaid time, it is usually contrary to FLSA or NRLA provisions. Not the passengers' fault, an Amtrak problem, but people who work unpaid hours are usually getting screwed by people who are typically violating the law.


They did not agree to unpaid time specifically, but they did agree to finish tasks that cannot be completed in-transit without negatively impacting customers. They could do those tasks (stocking and cleanup) before departure or after arrival but that time would be unpaid so they make customers work around staff schedules. When it's time for a new CBA the lawyers and managers sit down to decide what the customer needs to sacrifice next in order to keep everyone else happy. Degrading the customer experience is an easy compromise because we have no seat at the negotiating table.


----------



## Dakota 400

west point said:


> could closing the lounge car be due to restocking?



The station where the Cafe/Lounge car was closed while we were in the station was Washington. There was no restocking taking place for that car. I was sitting there and I did not see any. The attendant was not on duty. 

I can understand the reason why the car would be closed for awhile in the station. When the engines switch, the power goes off. But,  when the power comes back on, why is there no service while the train is in the station? Why does it take the train nearly arriving in Alexandria for the service to begin again? The attendant returned to the car just before the train pulled out of the station. She was there, but, observing her, simply dawdled while the line of customers grew longer and some were becoming irritated.


----------



## bonzoesc

joelkfla said:


> I just had the Thai curry noodles for lunch. I would definitely get this again, butkbeware: I found it surprisingly spicy. To my uncultured tastes, I think it was just black pepper spicy, not anything exotic. The noodles seemed to be ordinarily linguine, not rice noodles or anything fancy. There were a few big chunks of carrot and broccoli. The plant-based meatballs were very tasty, and both speecy-spicy and very sturdy. Do not attempt to cut them with a fork. Sorry, I forgot to snap the noodles before starting. My phone seems to be giving things a yellowish tint.View attachment 28580


I had the Thai noodles on the 92 a week ago (the one that was like 7h late by the time we got to Orlando), and I was honestly shocked at how good they were. You're right about the heat, my guess would just be some chili pepper and not black pepper though. Had it again on the way back south Monday & Tuesday. Didn't need the Tabasco like I did for the salmon & shrimp.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> How's the ability to use the “sleeper Lounge” on your train?


They serve the meals in the VL2 diner on both the “Super Star” and the Lake Shore Limited. Access to the diner for lounge use is never an issue on either train - at least from my experiences. Seems it’s more an issue when they are trying to do everything out of one Food service car.


----------



## zephyr17

No problem using it as lounge on the Lake Shore in November.


----------



## ehbowen

PVD said:


> If they agreed not to be paid for time after the arrival, then you cannot expect them to do work. I doubt they agreed to unpaid time, it is usually contrary to FLSA or NRLA provisions. Not the passengers' fault, an Amtrak problem, but people who work unpaid hours are usually getting screwed by people who are typically violating the law.


Remember what happened when the _Sunset Limited's_ arrival in L.A was changed to oh-dark-thirty. Amtrak announced that arriving sleeping car passengers could remain on board until 6, and the car attendants were paid for the extra time. They took the money...but most of them rousted out the passengers as soon as the wheels stopped turning, even if it was four in the morning. Eventually Amtrak threw in the towel and gave up.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

ehbowen said:


> Remember what happened when the _Sunset Limited's_ arrival in L.A was changed to oh-dark-thirty. Amtrak announced that arriving sleeping car passengers could remain on board until 6, and the car attendants were paid for the extra time. They took the money...but most of them rousted out the passengers as soon as the wheels stopped turning, even if it was four in the morning. Eventually Amtrak threw in the towel and gave up.


Somebody must have realized it was a bad experience for their best paying customers, and for a while the arrival process was greatly improved, but eventually whoever came up with that solution was ignored, overruled, or replaced and the SCA's reverted back to announcements and door banging as early as 4am. I hope whoever was responsible for the sleep-in option knows it meant a lot to some of us.


----------



## Dovecote

trimetbusfan said:


> Does anyone know if the Eastbound Sunset Limited Serves dinner on its last day before its evening arrival into NOL? The SL Route page (linked below) shows lunch being the last meal service, but that seems odd due to its late arrival. I was wondering if anybody had any first hand knowledge with this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunset Limited Train | Amtrak
> 
> 
> The Amtrak Sunset Limited train takes you between Louisiana and California through Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtrak.com


I can substantiate that a full menu meal is served on Train 2 prior to arriving in NOL. My first Amtrak trip in over three years was on this route In late April. The meals were most impressive especially since my last experience being subjected to the flex meals served on the LSL. Another surprise on the meal side was the availability of all menu items on the final day of the trip. My past experiences on western routes always noted this to the contrary.


----------



## Cal

PVD said:


> Nobody can be reasonably expected to work off the clock as a standard procedure.


Except flight attendants during boarding


----------



## jruff001

Devil's Advocate said:


> They did not agree to unpaid time specifically, but they did agree to finish tasks that cannot be completed in-transit without negatively impacting customers.


I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you have a cite to the CBA language you seem to be referring to?


----------



## TEREB

joelkfla said:


> No, the menu says alcoholic beverages are available for purchase, but the first is free at dinner.
> 
> I'm on 92 approaching Petersburg right now.
> 
> I tried the salmon and shrimp for dinner last night. The fish was OK but a bit dry. I could taste the lemon in the sauce at first bite, but it faded as I continued and the salmon just tasted like salmon. The 2 shrimps were fine. The rice was tasty but a bit mushy.
> View attachment 28579
> 
> I just had the Thai curry noodles for lunch. I would definitely get this again, butkbeware: I found it surprisingly spicy. To my uncultured tastes, I think it was just black pepper spicy, not anything exotic. The noodles seemed to be ordinarily linguine, not rice noodles or anything fancy. There were a few big chunks of carrot and broccoli. The plant-based meatballs were very tasty, and both speecy-spicy and very sturdy. Do not attempt to cut them with a fork. Sorry, I forgot to snap the noodles before starting. My phone seems to be giving things a yellowish tint.View attachment 28580


Thank you for your post and pictures. 
I was asking about the free alcoholic beverage offered during dinner. I'm glad they're still offering that. Do they still serve Barefoot wine? I hope not.
We've been riding the Meteor, and occasionally the Star for many, many years. I have always enjoyed their fish options. Even when the salmon was dry, it still had great flavor. My favorite overall was the crab cakes they served 12? years ago. I wish they would bring back the black bean veggie burger. There should be a lighter option for lunch.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jruff001 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you have a cite to the CBA language you seem to be referring to?


What exactly are you finding hard to believe? That a train must be ready for the next departure before OBS can leave, that OBS are not paid for work after passengers have disembarked, or that OBS tell paying passengers to leave the diner or lounge and get packed early so they can finish before arrival?



Devil's Advocate said:


> When it's time for a new CBA the lawyers and managers sit down to decide what the customer needs to sacrifice next in order to keep everyone else happy. Degrading the customer experience is an easy compromise because we have no seat at the negotiating table.


Do you at least agree with this part or are we still pretending that seniority contracts promote good frontline service despite all evidence to the contrary?


----------



## Jay Aitchsee

Just rode the Empire Builder from Chicago to Portland. The dining car was available to sleeping car passengers only. It was a great experience! No lines at the door. Seating from one to four by choice, cloth table cloths, conventional place settimgs, etc. The menu was basically the same as pre-covid, and prepared to order. Our entrees were quite tasty. The flat iron steak was superb and cooked to order and the carrot cake was one of the best I've had. 
The wait staff indicated a new menu was coming soon, but still secret. They were excited with anticipation of it being revealed. Even though there were only two staff, they seemed to be able to serve the reduced number of diners easily (and cheerfully)
Here, I might add that sleeping car attendant did an excellent job taking care of the riders and keeping the car and facilities clean. 
It was an enjoyable trip!


----------



## joelkfla

TEREB said:


> Thank you for your post and pictures.
> I was asking about the free alcoholic beverage offered during dinner. I'm glad they're still offering that. Do they still serve Barefoot wine? I hope not.
> We've been riding the Meteor, and occasionally the Star for many, many years. I have always enjoyed their fish options. Even when the salmon was dry, it still had great flavor. My favorite overall was the crab cakes they served 12? years ago. I wish they would bring back the black bean veggie burger. There should be a lighter option for lunch.


I think it was Barefoot. Tasted fine to me, but about the only time I drink wine on Amtrak to help me sleep thru the bumps and bounces.


----------



## jruff001

Devil's Advocate said:


> What exactly are you finding hard to believe? That a train must be ready for the next departure before OBS can leave, that OBS are not paid for work after passengers have disembarked, or that OBS tell paying passengers to leave the diner or lounge and get packed early so they can finish before arrival?


I find none of those hard to believe (well, except for # 2). I am mostly having a hard time deciphering what you meant by "they did agree to finish tasks that cannot be completed in-transit without negatively impacting customers" (and it might be just me; the sort-of double negative "cannot" / "without" might be confusing me) so I was wondering if you had an example to help me understand what you are getting at.


----------



## Cal

For anyone unaware, here's a thread about the new traditional dining menu. New Traditional Dining Menu


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## 5280 Guy

me_little_me said:


> This whole topic is the subject of many threads but as far as meeting the train, the biggest issue is the unreliability of arrival. I've been on Amtrak trains that have gone from an estimated arrival at a station of a few minutes to getting there an hour later.


Problem, not "issue."


----------



## tricia

Not sure if it's WAYYY back in this thread, or in another one .... 

Can anyone sum up or point me to posts about possible upcoming upgrades of dining on eastern LD trains? Specifically looking for info about CONO, Cap Ltd, Cardinal, and Crescent in November. 

Thanks, and if I'm in the wrong thread, moderators please direct me elsewhere.


----------



## enviro5609

tricia said:


> Not sure if it's WAYYY back in this thread, or in another one ....
> 
> Can anyone sum up or point me to posts about possible upcoming upgrades of dining on eastern LD trains? Specifically looking for info about CONO, Cap Ltd, Cardinal, and Crescent in November.
> 
> Thanks, and if I'm in the wrong thread, moderators please direct me elsewhere.


There have been rumors about the Meteor getting traditional dining in the fall when it returns. It’s just rumors from OBS, and speculation based on some job postings for Chef in NY/Miami. But the rumblings there have been consistent.

There were also job postings for Chef in Charlotte, which triggered some speculation about the Crescent getting dining back as well. That would be odd, considering the Crescent still is only 5x a week, and doesn’t currently have a dining car. But it’s not clear where else a Charlotte based Chef would work.


----------



## jis

enviro5609 said:


> There have been rumors about the Meteor getting traditional dining in the fall when it returns. It’s just rumors from OBS, and speculation based on some job postings for Chef in NY/Miami. But the rumblings there have been consistent.
> 
> There were also job postings for Chef in Charlotte, which triggered some speculation about the Crescent getting dining back as well. That would be odd, considering the Crescent still is only 5x a week, and doesn’t currently have a dining car. But it’s not clear where else a Charlotte based Chef would work.


As far as rumors go, the Crescent is supposed to go daily around the same time that the Meteor starts running.

As for traditional dining rumors on the Meteor they are running about even between positive and negative. Anyway a few more months will tell for sure.


----------



## west point

JIS: Correct: Probably will not know until FY 2023 funds locked in.


----------



## Oreius

I was checking out the menus for the lounge cars. What menu does the Pennsy use, the National or the Northeast Regional menu? The Regional menu has a few more mouth watering choices like a white cheddar Mac and cheese! Yum!

I don’t believe Amtrak provisions the train in Pittsburgh, though I could be wrong. Considering it originates in NYC, it would use that commissary. I’m not sure how Amtrak does it’s logistics for food service.


----------



## west point

Most Amtrak station's number of trains is very sparse. Restocking at any train's intermediate location requires a caterer and commisary. The question becomes how many trains a day needing restocking makes an ienroute ntermediate catering stop feasible?

It is hard to find any not close to one already catering. CLT 2 - Crescent, 1- Carolinian for example. JAX or Orlando - 4


----------



## JWM

Amtrak has to get the dining/catering in order. The dining cars have to go back on ALL overnight runs and give the routes different choices. They can cut the cost of the service by more efficient use and efforts to entice coach passengers to dine. I realize that it is rather expensive, but if they got even 10% of the coach passengers, they'd be ahead of the game.


----------



## zephyr17

west point said:


> Most Amtrak station's number of trains is very sparse. Restocking at any train's intermediate location requires a caterer and commisary. The question becomes how many trains a day needing restocking makes an ienroute ntermediate catering stop feasible?
> 
> It is hard to find any not close to one already catering. CLT 2 - Crescent, 1- Carolinian for example. JAX or Orlando - 4


Amtrak contracts all its commissary work out to Aramark, a food service company with a gigantic presence nationwide.

I am sure Aramark would be willing to provide commissary services at any location where they have presence and infrastructure (they are at a hell of a lot of airports, for instance) that Amtrak is willing to pay for.


----------



## lordsigma

7.7.22 Miami Mechanical and On Board Services (OBS) Hiring Event


7.7.22 Miami Mechanical and On Board Services (OBS) Hiring Event




careers.amtrak.com




Well if you want to be a diner chef at Miami here’s your Chance. Hiring event.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> 7.7.22 Miami Mechanical and On Board Services (OBS) Hiring Event
> 
> 
> 7.7.22 Miami Mechanical and On Board Services (OBS) Hiring Event
> 
> 
> 
> 
> careers.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you want to be a diner chef at Miami here’s your Chance. Hiring event.


It would be nice if Amtrak could get their job descriptions right.

In 2 places, it says the Chef is responsible for preparing meals for Amtrak employees, with no mention of passengers or customers. It also says they "will keep the entire lower level of the car clean."

And it says the LSA will perform "side work as directed by the Lead Service Attendant".


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> It would be nice if Amtrak could get their job descriptions right.
> 
> In 2 places, it says the Chef is responsible for preparing meals for Amtrak employees, with no mention of passengers or customers. It also says they "will keep the entire lower level of the car clean."
> 
> And it says the LSA will perform "side work as directed by the Lead Service Attendant".


 I have noticed that myself and figured the employees was typo for customers.


----------



## Cal

lordsigma said:


> I have noticed that myself and figured the employees was typo for customers.


Or maybe they’re for the Amtrak business special.


----------



## zephyr17

It had already been reduced to a single national menu on the old iteration of traditional dining long before COVID. The fact that they still printed different train graphics on those menus didn't change the fact that the choices were identical.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zephyr17 said:


> It had already been reduced to a single national menu on the old iteration of traditional dining long before COVID. The fact that they still printed different train graphics on those menus didn't change the fact that the choices were identical.


I contend that Gardner would be another _slash to solvency_ CEO if not for Congressional mandates. For all we know Gardner may have suggested and supported many of the reductions enacted under Anderson. I never mentioned COVID so I'm unsure what that has to do with anything I did say.


----------



## zephyr17

Devil's Advocate said:


> I contend Gardner would be another _slash to solvency_ Anderson 2.0 if not for Congressional mandates. I never mentioned COVID so I'm unsure what it has to do with this.


You mentioned the "old" version of traditional dining, which was withdrawn and replaced by flex on western trains as a COVID measure. My main point was the single national menu was in place under the old version and had been for a long time. It predated Anderson by quite some time and happened with Simplified Dining Service.

I do not disagree that current Amtrak management is another slash to solvency one, and I actually contend it still is one, Congressional mandates or no.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zephyr17 said:


> You mentioned the "old" version of traditional dining, which was withdrawn and replaced by flex on western trains as a COVID measure. My main point was the single national menu was in place under the old version and had been for a long time. It predated Anderson by quite some time and happened with Simplified Dining Service. I do not disagree that current Amtrak management is another slash to solvency one, and I actually contend it still is one, Congressional mandates or no.


I believe the _Simplified Dining_ era featured some regional menus on premium routes and the end of the program predated Gardner as CEO by a decade. During that window the _Chef-Inspired_ era also featured regional menus. Unfortunately it was cut so short many seem to forget it ever existed.


----------



## zephyr17

I rode a lot during that period on a lot of different trains, the Builder, the Starlight, the Southwest Chief and the Sunset all come to mind. It was the same menu from about at least 2014 on.

The difference was the menu graphics.

The national menu was not something introduced with the much improved new iteration of traditional dining.

Trust me, when I spent nine days onboard on one trip, I would have noticed, and very much welcomed, a different selection.


----------



## bluewizard

I am riding on the Cardinal in early August and have a sleeper car so It looks like meals are included. I have an issue with dairy products: milk, cheese, yogurt, whey, etc. 

when I called the help line today the customer service rep was very friendly but it looks like I can only order a vegan or kosher meal. She did mention there are chefs on board the train do they have ability to modify things? Or possibly make things that could work? This is my first long distance trip and in my 2nd in my life so I am learning.
thank you for any info and experiences.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

bluewizard said:


> I am riding on the Cardinal in early August and have a sleeper car so It looks like meals are included. I have an issue with dairy products: milk, cheese, yogurt, whey, etc.
> 
> when I called the help line today the customer service rep was very friendly but it looks like I can only order a vegan or kosher meal. She did mention there are chefs on board the train do they have ability to modify things? Or possibly make things that could work? This is my first long distance trip and in my 2nd in my life so I am learning.
> thank you for any info and experiences.


Since the flex meals are already made ahead of time and just reheated I doubt the onboard chef can do very much. Sounds like vegan would be your best bet, or a Kosher meat dish since dietary laws don't allow mixing dairy and meat


----------



## bluewizard

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Since the flex meals are already made ahead of time and just reheated I doubt the onboard chef can do very much. Sounds like vegan would be your best bet, or a Kosher meat dish since dietary laws don't allow mixing dairy and meat


Thank you for the information. That helps quite a bit. Off to order a Kosher Beef set of meals then.


----------



## Cal

CONO has two LSA’s: one for the diner and one for the SSL. SSL cafe is being used


----------



## joelkfla

bluewizard said:


> I am riding on the Cardinal in early August and have a sleeper car so It looks like meals are included. I have an issue with dairy products: milk, cheese, yogurt, whey, etc.
> 
> when I called the help line today the customer service rep was very friendly but it looks like I can only order a vegan or kosher meal. She did mention there are chefs on board the train do they have ability to modify things? Or possibly make things that could work? This is my first long distance trip and in my 2nd in my life so I am learning.
> thank you for any info and experiences.


I've never been on the Cardinal, but I'm skeptical that there is an actual, bona fide chef on board for Flex Dining. On the Silver Star, there's been just one lonely LSA (Lead Service Attendant) heating up the prepackaged meals and doling them out from a makeshift counter in the diner. (On one trip, the LSA delivered them to the table.)


----------



## Kirk2266

joelkfla said:


> I've never been on the Cardinal, but I'm skeptical that there is an actual, bona fide chef on board for Flex Dining. On the Silver Star, there's been just one lonely LSA (Lead Service Attendant) heating up the prepackaged meals and doling them out from a makeshift counter in the diner. (On one trip, the LSA delivered them to the table.)


That's kind of ironic because at least part of the reason that Amtrak was created was many of the services, in particular the dining service, had become substandard due to private railroads cutting costs (the whole Southern Pacific automat controversy), and now it looks like Amtrak is doing the same thing.


----------



## OBS

joelkfla said:


> I've never been on the Cardinal, but I'm skeptical that there is an actual, bona fide chef on board for Flex Dining. On the Silver Star, there's been just one lonely LSA (Lead Service Attendant) heating up the prepackaged meals and doling them out from a makeshift counter in the diner. (On one trip, the LSA delivered them to the table.)


You are correct.


----------



## Hytec

An agent just told me she believes that "real" dining has been, or is about to be resumed on the Crescent. Can anyone confirm this?

I understand that daily Crescent service will resume on 10/2. Perhaps dining car service also will resume at that time.


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## Tlcooper93

As of now, all eastern LD trains are still stuck in Flex dining. I have not recently heard or experienced anything otherwise.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Hytec said:


> An agent just told me she believes that "real" dining has been, or is about to be resumed on the Crescent. Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> I understand that daily Crescent service will resume on 10/2. Perhaps dining car service also will resume at that time.


I suspect if and when Traditional Dining returns to the Eastern trains, the Florida trains and maybe the Lake Shore Limited would go first. ,The Crescent will probably be further down the list.


----------



## jis

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I suspect if and when Traditional Dining returns to the Eastern trains, the Florida trains and maybe the Lake Shore Limited would go first. ,The Crescent will probably be further down the list.


With the current count in the active fleet, they will not have enough Diners to equip the Silvers, Crescent and LSL with Diners unless they cut down on PM/BO and Overhaul, or bring out a few from mothballs. I am waiting with bated breath to see which train reverts back to Amfleet II Table Car only.


----------



## JWM

Look for the Silver Meteor to get full dining cars first and then the LSL.


----------



## Rasputin

Perhaps I slept through it but has anyone in authority at Amtrak given any indication that the return of traditional dining to any eastern train is being considered.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nope.theyre too busy playing their Violins and rearranging the Deck Chairs on the Titanic!


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> Perhaps I slept through it but has anyone in authority at Amtrak given any indication that the return of traditional dining to any eastern train is being considered.


I asked my RPA contacts who are on the F&B Working Group set up by Congress. Their response is that there is nothing official yet. The issue is being worked on.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

jis said:


> I asked my RPA contacts who are on the F&B Working Group set up by Congress. Their response is that there is nothing official yet. The issue is being worked on.





Bob Dylan said:


> Nope.theyre too busy playing their Violins and rearranging the Deck Chairs on the Titanic!



Both meaning pretty much the same thing. 

“The issue is being worked on” has always been office speak for “We don’t have a clue how to deal with this so we’ll try to put you off with our stock phrase and hope you’ll just go away and forget about it while we shove the file back down to the bottom of the pile and hope it disappears.”


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Both meaning pretty much the same thing.
> 
> “The issue is being worked on” has always been office speak for “We don’t have a clue how to deal with this so we’ll try to put you off with our stock phrase and hope you’ll just go away and forget about it while we shove the file back down to the bottom of the pile and hope it disappears.”


It is not quite that bad, but feel free to interpret it whichever way suites


----------



## Rasputin

I suppose the fact that the new viewliner diners have not (yet) been scrapped or sold should give us great confidence that traditional dining will be returning to the eastern trains.


----------



## Cal

Rasputin said:


> I suppose the fact that the new viewliner diners have not (yet) been scrapped or sold should give us great confidence that traditional dining will be returning to the eastern trains.


I disagree, even Amtrak doesn’t usually sell perfectly good use cars that they just bought AFAIK. They could always renovate them to be a cafe/diner like the CCCs


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I disagree, even Amtrak doesn’t usually sell perfectly good use cars that they just bought AFAIK. They could always renovate them to be a cafe/diner like the CCCs


Apparently the flyboys tried and even put together a prototype but fortunately their wings were clipped before they could proceed further.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Apparently the flyboys apparently tried and even put together a prototype but fortunately their wings were clipped before they could proceed further.


Oh what a shame! If they can’t do that it wouldn’t make sense that they’d be able to get ‘em scrapped.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Bob Dylan said:


> Nope.theyre too busy playing their Violins and rearranging the Deck Chairs on the Titanic!


My heart (burn) will go on and on! (sorry Celine Dion)!!!


----------



## rdbarnes2000

Why can't the powers be more receptive to the demands of the traveling public on Amtrak? In my opinion dropping dining cars has been the main complaint to Amtrak since they discontinued them. Can I get an Amen on that?


----------



## Dakota 400

rdbarnes2000 said:


> Why can't the powers be more receptive to the demands of the traveling public on Amtrak? In my opinion dropping dining cars has been the main complaint to Amtrak since they discontinued them. Can I get an Amen on that?



I'll give you an Amen, but, the executives seem to be very hard of hearing. Or, very slow learners. Or, both.


----------



## Kirk2266

rdbarnes2000 said:


> Why can't the powers be more receptive to the demands of the traveling public on Amtrak? In my opinion dropping dining cars has been the main complaint to Amtrak since they discontinued them. Can I get an Amen on that?


Amen. I remember several years ago I ate on the Capitol Limited with full dining services and it was great. Not sure why they would drop the dining cars; in fact, eating in the dining cars and seeing all that scenery go by you is one of the highlights of any train trip!


----------



## JWM

Part of the reason for dropping full service dining cars is cost. However, Amtrak does not help in that area by limiting access to sleeping car passengers only. Properly managed with, for example, four sitting per evening for dinner and with adequate staff, the red ink could be greatly reduced. The "California Zephyr" decades ago had an early seating discount, too.


----------



## Dakota 400

JWM said:


> Part of the reason for dropping full service dining cars is cost. However, Amtrak does not help in that area by limiting access to sleeping car passengers



You are making too much sense for some Amtrak executives. The way to increase revenue is to sell a product that people want and make it available to the largest number of potential customers as possible. It doesn't take a person with a MBA to know that.


----------



## WWW

Going to be riding the Cardinal to the ACE event in Huntington WV late October
My question inquiry ?
When or what are the hours of the complimentary sleeping car meals ?
What can I expect ? (open loaded question LOL )

Leave Chicago 6pm - arrive Huntington 7am next day going
Leave Huntington 10pm - arrive Chicago 10am next day returning


----------



## danasgoodstuff

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-0522.pdf



Meal Times​*Breakfast:* Available 6:30 - 10 am; board by 9:30 am
*Lunch:* Available 11:30 am - 3 pm; board by 2:30 pm
*Dinner:* Available: 5:00 - 9:30 pm; board by 8:30 pm
Exceptions apply to certain trains and adjustments may be made in the event of a delay.









Amtrak Flexible Dining







www.amtrak.com





Subject to change, as always. I recently went cross country on the Empire Builder, the Lake Shore, Cap, and Silver service, and while the food is definitely better out west, it's not as bad as it's been made out to be in the east, IF you get a crew who take a little care.


----------



## saxpower

I road the Cardinal round trip few weeks ago and while "Flexible Dining" wasn't exactly 4-star Restaurant quality, I was pleasantly surprised. I will say I found the french toast a little "tough" (hard to cut with plasticware), but the omelette was fine. I found the spare ribs tasty and liked the Chicken A La Rosa. The Baked Ziti was okay-probably the dinner/lunch entrees I liked least of the three I tried, but certainly not bad.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

Sadly I haven’t tread through this thread fully. It’s been a while since my last (and only Amtrak trips empire-coast starlight-zephyr) I was fortunate to have bedrooms for those trips. Full service dining had recently returned so I was very lucky. My question is, has the dining car opened up to coach passengers? I’m looking into taking the Empire chi to sea but coach this time. TIA


----------



## joelkfla

Irelandvegas65 said:


> My question is, has the dining car opened up to coach passengers?


No.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

Ok. So that’sa big bummer. But my trip might be later next June. Unless that changes, looks like the cafe for me……


----------



## Joe from PA

Irelandvegas65 said:


> Ok. So that’sa big bummer. But my trip might be later next June. Unless that changes, looks like the cafe for me……


Trust me, you'll not be missing much. The cafe menu has a pretty good cheese burger as well as a Hebrew National hot dog. We order those when going to Boston. A few years ago the coach people were allowed to use the dining car, but as far as I could see, very few did (enter from the front).


----------



## OBS

Not at this time


----------



## JCTakoma

Latest twist, on the 20 Crescent to New York, in a roomette. Flex meal breakfast was served in a standard bag at 7am with a loud banging on our door. We were still snoozing. No option was provided to have it served at any particular time during a window, as some have described, and as has been offered to us on previous trips. 

My impression was that this had nothing to do with our attendant. Rather, in the absence of a dining car in the consist, the solo cafe car attendant was prepping and assembling the flex meals, and presumably needed to get that out of the way so that he could open the cafe car to the coaches.

As to the meals themselves, for breakfast, the English muffin in the breakfast sandwich was tough, a sign that it had been heated together with the contents of the sandwich, rather than toasted separately, of course and as expected, but worth pointing out I think in case anyone from Amtrak tries to tell us that flex meals are better than dining car meals where staff actually prepare meals rather than merely assembling them like on an airplane. The “railroad” French toast (it wasn’t really, since it was simply normal slices of bread) was actually not too bad on this trip; it had been shoe leather on a trip last year. They ran out of yogurt, sorry. 

As for lunch just before DC, several entrees were unavailable, there was butter but no bread (really?!?), and there was no dessert. I picked the reasonably tender chicken out of the fettuccine swimming in sauce. Salads were crispy iceberg and a lonely cherry tomato with packet ranch. The can of beer from Mexico was ice cold, as were the sodas.

We mostly missed the dessert. On the 19 Crescent down the week before, we discovered Amtrak is now offering Frank and Louie’s (from Rehoboth Beach, Delaware) butter cakes for dessert. My, those are good, though husband still prefers the brownies. Desserts are about the only thing good I have to say about so-called “flex dining” on Amtrak, so when the dessert runs out, well…


----------



## 20th Century Rider

JCTakoma said:


> Latest twist, on the 20 Crescent to New York, in a roomette. Flex meal breakfast was served in a standard bag at 7am with a loud banging on our door. We were still snoozing. No option was provided to have it served at any particular time during a window, as some have described, and as has been offered to us on previous trips.
> 
> My impression was that this had nothing to do with our attendant. Rather, in the absence of a dining car in the consist, the solo cafe car attendant was prepping and assembling the flex meals, and presumably needed to get that out of the way so that he could open the cafe car to the coaches.
> 
> As to the meals themselves, for breakfast, the English muffin in the breakfast sandwich was tough, a sign that it had been heated together with the contents of the sandwich, rather than toasted separately, of course and as expected, but worth pointing out I think in case anyone from Amtrak tries to tell us that flex meals are better than dining car meals where staff actually prepare meals rather than merely assembling them like on an airplane. The “railroad” French toast (it wasn’t really, since it was simply normal slices of bread) was actually not too bad on this trip; it had been shoe leather on a trip last year. They ran out of yogurt, sorry.
> 
> As for lunch just before DC, several entrees were unavailable, there was butter but no bread (really?!?), and there was no dessert. I picked the reasonably tender chicken out of the fettuccine swimming in sauce. Salads were crispy iceberg and a lonely cherry tomato with packet ranch. The can of beer from Mexico was ice cold, as were the sodas.
> 
> We mostly missed the dessert. On the 19 Crescent down the week before, we discovered Amtrak is now offering Frank and Louie’s (from Rehoboth Beach, Delaware) butter cakes for dessert. My, those are good, though husband still prefers the brownies. Desserts are about the only thing good I have to say about so-called “flex dining” on Amtrak, so when the dessert runs out, well…


It's always a good idea to bring some of your own food to supplement 'flex' dining which is monotonous, poor quality, and small portions. Every once in a while you'll find someone who thinks flex passable... but most don't like it and can't wait for freshly prepared full service meals to return. Don't hold yer breath!


----------



## Sidney

i'll be on the Texas Eagle/Sunset in a little over two weeks from Chicago to LA. Going this direction the change to the Sunset is akin to black and white to color in "The Wizard of Oz". You wake up on the second morning and real food and a sightseer car emerges!

I have had my share of flex meals over the last four years. They range from awful to barely adequate.


----------



## cassie225

So, no dining car on the Crescent?


----------



## Bob Dylan

cassie225 said:


> So, no dining car on the Crescent?


Sadly no! 

And under the Old Schedule, it used to be so Cool to have Breakfast in the Diner as you rolled across the Causeway heading out of New Orleans, and then wake-up in Virginia heading for DC while having another Breakfast in the Diner.( "..Nothing could be finer than Dinner in the Diner..")

I've been riding the Crescent since the Southern RR Days, ( miss the Slumber Coaches)and that Virginia Ham and Southern Cooking was so good!( and Grits, that's how you knew you were across the Mason-Dixon Line, one of the few traditions Amtrak still followed on Trains that served Traditional Dining!)


----------



## Cal

Irelandvegas65 said:


> Sadly I haven’t tread through this thread fully. It’s been a while since my last (and only Amtrak trips empire-coast starlight-zephyr) I was fortunate to have bedrooms for those trips. Full service dining had recently returned so I was very lucky. My question is, has the dining car opened up to coach passengers? I’m looking into taking the Empire chi to sea but coach this time. TIA


Diner is sleeper only stoll


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> I have had my share of flex meals over the last four years. They range from awful to barely adequate.


Definitely disagree. Flex meals may not be great quality, and I’m sure their nutrition value isn’t anything to brag about either. But I’ve had several flex meals which weren’t bad, at least not as bad as many people here slate them to be.


----------



## PVD

One factor with the flex meals seems to be staffing. When you have one person in a hurry to get the meals out, and then having to deal with the coach passengers as the cafe car attendant as well, the results don 't seem to be as good as when there is additional staff, and the meal prep is not as rushed. The single person staffing virtually guarantees inadequate service. The idea of the meal at your schedule can't happen with one LSA.


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## Amtrak709

Bob Dylan said:


> Sadly no!
> 
> And under the Old Schedule, it used to be so Cool to have Breakfast in the Diner as you rolled across the Causeway heading out of New Orleans, and then wake-up in Virginia heading for DC while having another Breakfast in the Diner.( "..Nothing could be finer than Dinner in the Diner..")
> 
> I've been riding the Crescent since the Southern RR Days, ( miss the Slumber Coaches)and that Virginia Ham and Southern Cooking was so good!( and Grits, that's how you knew you were across the Mason-Dixon Line, one of the few traditions Amtrak still followed on Trains that served Traditional Dining!)


Bob Dylan: Just scanning the various posts today. This one of yours reminds me of those happier days gone by on the Crescent. I have been a passenger on the Crescent (and the Southerner, etc.) since 1966. I actually think my very first trip was a "safety patrol boy" trip (coaches) Columbus GA to Atlanta to Washington in 1959 (I was 12). I have been on Amtrak's Crescent sleepers dozens if not hundreds of times over the years: and recently. I am sad about the general status of services these days. My ultimate railroad idol--W Graham Claytor--I suspect is too. I am trying my best not to let COVID19 issues destroy a very long term love of the passenger industry.


----------



## enviro5609

Seems like there is another round of Chef and LSA job postings in Miami.






Chef - Miami


Chef - Miami




careers.amtrak.com





That is both a promising sign, and also an indicator that the rumored fall/winter start of Traditional Dining with the return of the Meteor may be an overly optimistic timeline.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> i'll be on the Texas Eagle/Sunset in a little over two weeks from Chicago to LA. Going this direction the change to the Sunset is akin to black and white to color in "The Wizard of Oz". You wake up on the second morning and real food and a sightseer car emerges!
> 
> I have had my share of flex meals over the last four years. They range from awful to barely adequate.


I so agree with you! And have been ordering the kosher meals which is a little more food in volume and variety; but mediocre quality. I do bring along my own comfort foods such as fritos and chips... lots of fruit, cookies, and 'happy juice' allowable in your own room. Also when boarding in NYP or etc. I will bring on board some items from the breakfast buffet and / or the Amtrak Lounges. As so many have said... being able to enjoy a meal or snacks in the privacy of your own space while watching the world go by makes it a feast... !


----------



## PaTrainFan

Cal said:


> Definitely disagree. Flex meals may not be great quality, and I’m sure their nutrition value isn’t anything to brag about either. But I’ve had several flex meals which weren’t bad, at least not as bad as many people here slate them to be.



I agree with this. My preference? No. But they have improved since the beginning a few years ago. I suggest that if they were just presented a little better people wouldn't gripe as much, But, yes, I do long for the return of Traditional Dining in the east.


----------



## joelkfla

enviro5609 said:


> Seems like there is another round of Chef and LSA job postings in Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chef - Miami
> 
> 
> Chef - Miami
> 
> 
> 
> 
> careers.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is both a promising sign, and also an indicator that the rumored fall/winter start of Traditional Dining with the return of the Meteor may be an overly optimistic timeline.


Maybe they're suffering a high washout rate. Or maybe it's taking them so long to make offers that applicants have already moved on.

I haven't really seen any rumors on this board that Trad Dining would resume in October, just a lotta wishin'.


----------



## river

We are heading out of Chicago to New Orleans in the near future on the CONO. I know we'll have flexible dining. I've seen the menu and it says something like seasonal desserts. Any idea what the current desserts are?


----------



## saxpower

river said:


> We are heading out of Chicago to New Orleans in the near future on the CONO. I know we'll have flexible dining. I've seen the menu and it says something like seasonal desserts. Any idea what the current desserts are?



As of a few weeks ago, the desers were brownies or butter cakes- both of which I liked (not 4 star restaurant, of course but tasty). I can't remember which desert came with which entry.


----------



## Cal

saxpower said:


> As of a few weeks ago, the desers were brownies or butter cakes- both of which I liked (not 4 star restaurant, of course but tasty). I can't remember which desert came with which entry.


For me they were both offered each time. They were good, but not amazing. My LSA heated them up though which made them better


----------



## Maverickstation

Seems like there is another round of Chef and LSA job postings in Miami.

Read that job description, it talks about preparing meals for Amtrak employees (it mentions that a few times in the posting). Further it notes the job is Florida based with no Travel Requirement.
It does not sound like a Chef position for one of the regular trains serving Florida.

Ken


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

Currently on the CZ heading to Chicago.
Lots to enjoy about this first-time trip but sadly the food isn't one of them.It's virtually inedible.
We left Emeryville three hours late because maintenance couldn't fix the grill.
So no steaks for dinner and no eggs for breakfast for the entire journey.
No lunch available on the first day - the buffalo sandwich we were given was frozen solid.
Last night the chicken arrived barely tepid and was awful - so many people left so much unfinished food on their plates.
Breakfast is just high sugar crap.No toast and jam, no fresh fruit.
The goats cheese salad for lunch came with a dreadful vinaigrette - we were told it came with the salad so there was nothing they could do.
Went for the pasta for the second night's dinner but they'd run out.
That left just the chicken again or salmon.
But they did offer another goats cheese salad - and yes I could have it without vinaigrette...
My wife said the burger - served with potato chips only - was ok.
Tbh, there is not a single thing I've eaten on this journey that I've liked and I'm the world's least picky eater. The microwave is putting in a shift and a half.
I understand the post-pandemic pressure Amtrak is under but I can't understand the company's nickel and dime attitude.Why go to the trouble of tablecloths and fresh flowers and serve food with plastic plates and cutlery ?
If we stayed long enough at a station I'd resort to trying to find something healthy and tasty to eat but we haven't.
There's much to enjoy on this journey - the scenery is fantastic, our Roomette much more comfortable than we expected and the shower is great.
But the train is filthy and surfaces in the observation car haven't been cleaned since the start of the journey.
Now running five hours late so missed the Rockies in darkness.
Such a shame really.One of the world's great train journeys deserves far better than this.


----------



## Rasputin

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Currently on the CZ heading to Chicago.
> Lots to enjoy about this first-time trip but sadly the food isn't one of them.It's virtually inedible.
> We left Emeryville three hours late because maintenance couldn't fix the grill.
> So no steaks for dinner and no eggs for breakfast for the entire journey.
> No lunch available on the first day - the buffalo sandwich we were given was frozen solid.
> Last night the chicken arrived barely tepid and was awful - so many people left so much unfinished food on their plates.
> Breakfast is just high sugar crap.No toast and jam, no fresh fruit.
> The goats cheese salad for lunch came with a dreadful vinaigrette - we were told it came with the salad so there was nothing they could do.
> Went for the pasta for the second night's dinner but they'd run out.
> That left just the chicken again or salmon.
> But they did offer another goats cheese salad - and yes I could have it without vinaigrette...
> My wife said the burger - served with potato chips only - was ok.
> Tbh, there is not a single thing I've eaten on this journey that I've liked and I'm the world's least picky eater. The microwave is putting in a shift and a half.
> I understand the post-pandemic pressure Amtrak is under but I can't understand the company's nickel and dime attitude.Why go to the trouble of tablecloths and fresh flowers and serve food with plastic plates and cutlery ?
> If we stayed long enough at a station I'd resort to trying to find something healthy and tasty to eat but we haven't.
> There's much to enjoy on this journey - the scenery is fantastic, our Roomette much more comfortable than we expected and the shower is great.
> But the train is filthy and surfaces in the observation car haven't been cleaned since the start of the journey.
> Now running five hours late so missed the Rockies in darkness.
> Such a shame really.One of the world's great train journeys deserves far better than this.


I am sorry to hear that your trip has not been more positive. It appears that a number of Amtrak flaws have conspired to all be present on your trip. I hope that the rest of your visit to the U.S. goes much better. This is not a great time to be traveling on Amtrak.


----------



## grandson_loves_trains

We are going to be on the CZ headed to Grand Junction today. Had to change my dates and a bedroom was the on;y option available, so grandson and I are so excited to finally be allowed in the dining car! Have always traveled coach, so I am praying for the good function of the grills!


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

Rasputin said:


> I am sorry to hear that your trip has not been more positive. It appears that a number of Amtrak flaws have conspired to all be present on your trip. I hope that the rest of your visit to the U.S. goes much better. This is not a great time to be traveling on Amtrak.


Thanks for your thoughts.
We're actually having a ball and enjoying the trip immensely.
The delays are nothing anyone can really do much about and frankly we don't care what time we arrive in Chicago.
We're more frustrated than angry that Amtrak don't make much more of such an iconic route.
We're not sure why it's treated as just another of their services - it is so ripe with potential.
And simple things - how easy and cheap it would be to load a box of fresh fruit at the start of the journey.
We'd be more than happy to pay an extra premium to have somebody actually cook a meal for us rather than reheat crap.
Dining in good company as the sun sets on the wonderful landscape should be a joy to be savoured - not rushed through for convenience.
And not thoroughly cleaning trains with COVID still about is reprehensible.
The WiFi issue is not a problem for us as we have a cheap compatible roaming SIM from the UK for 4G.
But we've been in third world countries that have internet on local bus services - how Amtrak are unable to offer it, even at a fee, in this day and age is just bizarre.


----------



## Cal

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Currently on the CZ heading to Chicago.
> Lots to enjoy about this first-time trip but sadly the food isn't one of them.It's virtually inedible.
> We left Emeryville three hours late because maintenance couldn't fix the grill.
> So no steaks for dinner and no eggs for breakfast for the entire journey.
> No lunch available on the first day - the buffalo sandwich we were given was frozen solid.
> Last night the chicken arrived barely tepid and was awful - so many people left so much unfinished food on their plates.
> Breakfast is just high sugar crap.No toast and jam, no fresh fruit.
> The goats cheese salad for lunch came with a dreadful vinaigrette - we were told it came with the salad so there was nothing they could do.
> Went for the pasta for the second night's dinner but they'd run out.
> That left just the chicken again or salmon.
> But they did offer another goats cheese salad - and yes I could have it without vinaigrette...
> My wife said the burger - served with potato chips only - was ok.
> Tbh, there is not a single thing I've eaten on this journey that I've liked and I'm the world's least picky eater. The microwave is putting in a shift and a half.
> I understand the post-pandemic pressure Amtrak is under but I can't understand the company's nickel and dime attitude.Why go to the trouble of tablecloths and fresh flowers and serve food with plastic plates and cutlery ?
> If we stayed long enough at a station I'd resort to trying to find something healthy and tasty to eat but we haven't.
> There's much to enjoy on this journey - the scenery is fantastic, our Roomette much more comfortable than we expected and the shower is great.
> But the train is filthy and surfaces in the observation car haven't been cleaned since the start of the journey.
> Now running five hours late so missed the Rockies in darkness.
> Such a shame really.One of the world's great train journeys deserves far better than this.


Sorry to hear. I’ve only had positive experiences with traditional dining but I agree with the cleaning. It’s not hard to see dirt built up along surfaces and it’s sad to see.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Currently on the CZ heading to Chicago.
> Lots to enjoy about this first-time trip but sadly the food isn't one of them.It's virtually inedible.
> We left Emeryville three hours late because maintenance couldn't fix the grill.
> So no steaks for dinner and no eggs for breakfast for the entire journey.
> No lunch available on the first day - the buffalo sandwich we were given was frozen solid.
> Last night the chicken arrived barely tepid and was awful - so many people left so much unfinished food on their plates.
> Breakfast is just high sugar crap.No toast and jam, no fresh fruit.
> The goats cheese salad for lunch came with a dreadful vinaigrette - we were told it came with the salad so there was nothing they could do.
> Went for the pasta for the second night's dinner but they'd run out.
> That left just the chicken again or salmon.
> But they did offer another goats cheese salad - and yes I could have it without vinaigrette...
> My wife said the burger - served with potato chips only - was ok.
> Tbh, there is not a single thing I've eaten on this journey that I've liked and I'm the world's least picky eater. The microwave is putting in a shift and a half.
> I understand the post-pandemic pressure Amtrak is under but I can't understand the company's nickel and dime attitude.Why go to the trouble of tablecloths and fresh flowers and serve food with plastic plates and cutlery ?
> If we stayed long enough at a station I'd resort to trying to find something healthy and tasty to eat but we haven't.
> There's much to enjoy on this journey - the scenery is fantastic, our Roomette much more comfortable than we expected and the shower is great.
> But the train is filthy and surfaces in the observation car haven't been cleaned since the start of the journey.
> Now running five hours late so missed the Rockies in darkness.
> Such a shame really.One of the world's great train journeys deserves far better than this.


Oh! My! Gosh! 

Be sure to contact customer service at the conclusion of your trip; and although you may be feeling angry, politely discuss your displeasure with unacceptable food service you paid big bucks for. You may not get a full refund, but such a big problem with the food should be worth at least a few hundred $$$ for a travel credit voucher.

With that said, this brings up deeper concerns regarding Amtrak's management and lack of care and concern for the customers. As an Amtrak traveler myself... and I will be on the CZ in December... I am lowering my expectations as my overall disappointment rises.

What the heck! You are paying in the $1000's and have a right to services paid for or adequate compensation!


----------



## lordsigma

Maverickstation said:


> Seems like there is another round of Chef and LSA job postings in Miami.
> 
> Read that job description, it talks about preparing meals for Amtrak employees (it mentions that a few times in the posting). Further it notes the job is Florida based with no Travel Requirement.
> It does not sound like a Chef position for one of the regular trains serving Florida.
> 
> Ken


I think The Employees thing is a typo in the job description - it is also in the chef postings out west. 
It also says:
Responsibilities
•
The Chef is responsible for meal preparation in the kitchen on board our dining cars.

This is an OBS job and you’re reading too much into the posting. They don’t hire chefs for crew bases to cook meals for employees.


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

Okay, now I'm pissed.
The ONLY food on offer in the dining room for lunch on the third day of this CZ trip we're on is a hamburger with potato chips.
Nothing else.
Except a hotdog off the children's menu.
There is literally no other food on board and as we're running 7 hours late will be the only food on offer for dinner tonight.
And we're unable to order any alcohol with our " meal " for reasons which are still not apparent to us.
It is unbelievable that the cretins in charge of Amtrak's logistics are unable to organise an alternative supply of provisions anywhere along the way of a three-day 3,000 mile journey across the country.
The management in charge of this company are imbeciles.
I feel sorry for their staff to be led by donkeys.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Okay, now I'm pissed.
> The ONLY food on offer in the dining room for lunch on the third day of this CZ trip we're on is a hamburger with potato chips.
> Nothing else.
> Except a hotdog off the children's menu.
> There is literally no other food on board and as we're running 7 hours late will be the only food on offer for dinner tonight.
> And we're unable to order any alcohol with our " meal " for reasons which are still not apparent to us.
> It is unbelievable that the cretins in charge of Amtrak's logistics are unable to organise an alternative supply of provisions anywhere along the way of a three-day 3,000 mile journey across the country.
> The management in charge of this company are imbeciles.
> I feel sorry for their staff to be led by donkeys.


Document everything with photos if possible. No food? No excuse, Amtrak! Be prepared to politely ask for a refund.


----------



## lordsigma

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Okay, now I'm pissed.
> The ONLY food on offer in the dining room for lunch on the third day of this CZ trip we're on is a hamburger with potato chips.
> Nothing else.
> Except a hotdog off the children's menu.
> There is literally no other food on board and as we're running 7 hours late will be the only food on offer for dinner tonight.
> And we're unable to order any alcohol with our " meal " for reasons which are still not apparent to us.
> It is unbelievable that the cretins in charge of Amtrak's logistics are unable to organise an alternative supply of provisions anywhere along the way of a three-day 3,000 mile journey across the country.
> The management in charge of this company are imbeciles.
> I feel sorry for their staff to be led by donkeys.



I sympathize with your frustration about the delay. But the logistics of supplying the train at any stop with the provisions for the whole menu aren’t that simple. The traditional emergency meal is Dinty Moore stew….I’ll take the burger over that I think!

You can probably get a refund or voucher for your delay.


----------



## lordsigma

I missed your earlier post about the broken grill. You can probably get a full refund for that situation I’d expect - they’re usually pretty good about that.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> I think The Employees thing is a typo in the job description - it is also in the chef postings out west.
> It also says:
> Responsibilities
> •
> The Chef is responsible for meal preparation in the kitchen on board our dining cars.
> 
> This is an OBS job and you’re reading too much into the posting. They don’t hire chefs for crew bases to cook meals for employees.


I pointed it out in previous postings for Miami, as well. They certainly don't have a need for a half dozen or more chefs to cook solely for Amtrak employees in Miami.

It does, however, speak to the competence of Amtrak HR that nobody has fixed it.


----------



## west point

Who proof reads anything?. When writing specs had a very difficult time getting anyone to proof read my stuff afterI had proof read it twice usually the next day unless expedited for some reason. I tend to make run on sentences/..


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

lordsigma said:


> I sympathize with your frustration about the delay. But the logistics of supplying the train at any stop with the provisions for the whole menu aren’t that simple. The traditional emergency meal is Dinty Moore stew….I’ll take the burger over that I think!
> 
> You can probably get a refund or voucher for your delay.


You were right about the Dinty Moore stew...And no burgers left.
I think we'll wait till Chicago.


----------



## Rambling Robert

As reported on another thread I don’t want to repeat my first sleeper car experience - but the poor pull down service was due to the (night) assistant to the SCA not the SCA. In my case I “slept” between the seats half folded down. Later, as I got off the train, THEE Conductor was furious with the assistant for a behavior I can only guess.

But my hard earned senior savings of $550 went into THAT sleeper ride partly for the FOOD which I enjoyed. So I’ll be back in Coach or BC.

But on the last few long LD trips I haven’t had much to eat on the train during the trip. In BOS I had a hot sandwich then didn’t eat until PDX where I was surprised to find a yummy polish sausage on a bun.

But sooner or later Coach/BC will be allowed back to make reservations in the dining car. Before there was a menu with prices which was fine.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Rizla Ronnie said:


> And we're unable to order any alcohol with our " meal " for reasons which are still not apparent to us.


No alcohol! Now that is something to be upset about!


----------



## Sidney

What..they were out of beer and wine? Two scenarios would make my blood boil embarking on a three day cross country trip. The first being downgraded to Coach that day and having no food on that journey. Two essentials that should not happen.

I have a circle trip coming up in less than two weeks. I ve been doing these for 33 years and never once had a problem except for late trains where they put you up in a hotel..hardly a problem. Hope my streak continues,but this has not been a good year for Amtrak.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> No alcohol! Now that is something to be upset about!


The two most important things when problems; document carefully, and be polite and appreciative with the customer service agent who's trying to help you... I have found it works just about every time... and you actually do get a bit [or a lot] more in compensation.


----------



## dbkbye

Wow!! I enjoyed the food we had on the SWC last month (aside from a breakfast burrito which did not at all agree with me--and looking back, I think it was the pico that was off; our SCA was very kind in getting me ginger ales). As far as I know, they didn't run out of anything, including liquor. A nonfunctional grill would have changed everything! So sorry for your crummy luck, @Rizla Ronnie


----------



## MARC Rider

lordsigma said:


> I sympathize with your frustration about the delay. But the logistics of supplying the train at any stop with the provisions for the whole menu aren’t that simple. The traditional emergency meal is Dinty Moore stew….I’ll take the burger over that I think!
> 
> You can probably get a refund or voucher for your delay.


I've heard stories about how, in years past, if there was some sort of disruption of food availability, they would call out for pizza or the Colonel for fried chicken. I've had the Amstew, and also once when a Silver Meteor was delayed into Orlando, they had sandwich boxes for the sleeper passengers from a local caterer/eatery. Even for a train li8ke the Califoornia Zephyr, which passes through some sparsely populated country, it's not like it's 1869 and there's nothing in between Omaha and Sacramento. I'm sure there are lots of places along the route that could provide a filling, if not fancy, meal. They just need to trust the LSA or the Chef with an Amtrak credit card.


----------



## Rasputin

My impression is that problems with the grills on dining cars seem to be rare. I was on the Southwest Chief about six or seven years ago when we were told that the grill was not heating up enough to cook steaks but apparently it was not a complete breakdown and plenty of other meals could be prepared. I was looking forward to a steak but had chicken instead and it was good.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I've had Pizza ( National Chain and Mom andPop),KFC and Subway on LD Trains when there were food problems, and Amstew many times!

The only time I've gone hungry on Amtrak Trains was as a Coah Passenger when we weren't allowed in the Diner and the Cafe was out of what I considered edible or else was Closed during delays!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Rasputin said:


> My impression is that problems with the grills on dining cars seem to be rare. I was on the Southwest Chief about six or seven years ago when we were told that the grill was not heating up enough to cook steaks but apparently it was not a complete breakdown and plenty of other meals could be prepared. I was looking forward to a steak but had chicken instead and it was good.


That's because it could be heated in the Convection Oven. 

Steaks,Eggs and French Toast require a Grill to properly prepare in Train Kitchens.


----------



## saxpower

I suppose that is one up side of the flex meals. Less opportunity for equipment failures or problems obtaining an ingredient. Since they are pre-made, as long as the microwave or convection oven (which ever they use) is working, and there is a way to refrigerate the meals prior to preparation, everything is set. 

I know, its a reach, but hey, better than problems due to a non-working grille. 

(I should note- I live alone and because of my work schedule spend most of the week eating re-heated food I prepared on the weekend. I'm probably so used to reheated prepared meals the Flex Meals are just like normal for me)


----------



## Rasputin

MARC Rider said:


> I'm sure there are lots of places along the route that could provide a filling, if not fancy, meal. They just need to trust the LSA or the Chef with an Amtrak credit card.


I assume that the problem with the grill and lack of food on Rizla Ronnie's CZ was very quickly reported to Amtrak operations. Evidently they did not authorize any action and if not, why not?

This train was not operating through Mars. There are a number of large and modest sized communities on this route which have sufficient restaurant capacity that, with some advance notice, could have provided ample food to this train. 

We see this over and over again with Amtrak. Whenever there is a meltdown there seems to be a lack of imagination or flexibility in coming up with a solution and it seems to be always treated like it is the first time such a meltdown has ever occurred.

Granted I have not studied Amtrak's operation manual to see if these problems and their solutions are discussed there, so corrections would be welcome.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> That's because it could be heated in the Convection Oven.
> 
> Steaks,Eggs and French Toast require a Grill to properly prepare in Train Kitchens.


But I wonder how they were able to make the burgers on the CZ without the grill working? Gosh if they just microwaved them they would be mushy... not good!


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> But I wonder how they were able to make the burgers on the CZ without the grill working? Gosh if they just microwaved them they would be mushy... not good!


The Burgers served in Amtrak Diners are Prepared Patties that can be Heated in a Convection Oven, and to my knowledge usually are, they are not Grilled..


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The Burgers served in Amtrak Diners are Prepared Patties that can be Heated in a Convection Oven, and to my knowledge usually are, they are not Grilled..


Good to know... that burger is tasty and filling and I often make that my choice for dinner. Of course it's nothing compared to an 'authentic' Texas BBQ burger smothered with sauce!


----------



## Rasputin

Bob Dylan said:


> That's because it could be heated in the Convection Oven.
> 
> Steaks,Eggs and French Toast require a Grill to properly prepare in Train Kitchens.


As I recall, on our trip we were told that the grill was not heating up enough to cook steaks but apparently it was working well enough to prepare some meals because I had an omelet the next morning.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Rasputin said:


> As I recall, on our trip we were told that the grill was not heating up enough to cook steaks but apparently it was working well enough to prepare some meals because I had an omelet the next morning.


At least it wasn't a Flex Omelete!


----------



## joelkfla

Bob Dylan said:


> At least it wasn't a Flex Omelete!


Flex -- as in rubber?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

just rode the coast starlight and I felt like the dining car was operating as usual.

Forced community seating. (or room service.

Business class passengers were invited to dine. Was $25 for lunch. $45 for dinner.

Tables were set with a vase and roses.

Plasticware for lunch. Silverware and cloth napkins for dinner.

I had the baked potato for lunch. Was good, but a small portion for an entree. Needs a side salad with it. Lemon Cake for dessert. Was fine, nothing special.

For dinner I had Gin and Tonic, Empanada, Salmon, and cheesecake.

Empanadas was ok, a little sweet for an appetizer. Salmon was ok, was a small piece and I've definitely had better fish dishes on Amtrak but there wasn't anything wrong with it. The Couscous was very good. Green beans were green beans.

The true star was the white chocolate blueberry cheesecake. Was excellent. So much better than those little cheesecake cups they were serving
prior to covid.

Crew was average Amtrak crew.

This is my first “traditional dining” experience in many years. Was great to be back!


----------



## Michigan Mom

After returning from a Silver Star journey, which will be shared in an upcoming Trip Report, all I can say is, bring food, bring food, bring food. Especially items that don't go bad quickly, like nuts, bagged veggies or crackers. Cheese can last at room temps for a while too. In any case, unless you're generally uncritical when it comes to food, do not depend on Amtrak when they are having these challenges just operating their schedules. First off they seem to be having trouble with delays on many routes, the Transitdocs show lots of daily red and yellow. 
Second, in terms of flex meals: If you can subsist on these, you will not starve. The portions are generous and the warm roll adds heft, especially with butter. But they are highly processed microwavable plates and maybe it's because I'm getting older, for the first time I felt the effects of sodium overload. Also, if the southbound Star is late into south FL there is no dinner. so you can have many hours elapse between meals.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> just rode the coast starlight and I felt like the dining car was operating as usual.
> 
> Forced community seating. (or room service.
> 
> Business class passengers were invited to dine. Was $25 for lunch. $45 for dinner.
> 
> Tables were set with a vase and roses.
> 
> Plasticware for lunch. Silverware and cloth napkins for dinner.
> 
> I had the baked potato for lunch. Was good, but a small portion for an entree. Needs a side salad with it. Lemon Cake for dessert. Was fine, nothing special.
> 
> For dinner I had Gin and Tonic, Empanada, Salmon, and cheesecake.
> 
> Empanadas was ok, a little sweet for an appetizer. Salmon was ok, was a small piece and I've definitely had better fish dishes on Amtrak but there wasn't anything wrong with it. The Couscous was very good. Green beans were green beans.
> 
> The true star was the white chocolate blueberry cheesecake. Was excellent. So much better than those little cheesecake cups they were serving
> prior to covid.
> 
> Crew was average Amtrak crew.
> 
> This is my first “traditional dining” experience in many years. Was great to be back!
> View attachment 29065
> View attachment 29066
> View attachment 29067
> View attachment 29062
> View attachment 29063
> View attachment 29064


That potato does look rather small, sitting next to the sour cream packet. I wonder whether the chunks of cheese scattered on the edge of bowl were sloppiness, or art.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> That potato does look rather small, sitting next to the sour cream packet. I wonder whether the chunks of cheese scattered on the edge of bowl were sloppiness, or art.


I think the cheese was a “we don't have shredded cheese so let's cut up some slices of cheese” - so more like a clever solution to a problem. Haha. 

I miss the veggie burger for lunch!


----------



## PaTrainFan

I'd still like to know when the much-heralded china service is to return.


----------



## Sidney

PaTrainFan said:


> I'd still like to know when the much-heralded china service is to return.


And traditional dining on the Eastern trains and Texas Eagle


----------



## Rambling Robert

... and ALSO when it’s Covid-septic, i.e. now, to offer residual dinner reservations to Coach Class.

Oh yeah and Amtrak owes me two orders of Coconut Shrimp I missed out on during a recent trip on the CS..


----------



## ScottR

This weekend, I’ll turn 62 years old, and I’ll do it as a passenger aboard the Southwest Chief. A bouncy bus ride up from Monterey to the San Fransisco airport, an overnight flight to Chicago (first class don’t you know…it’s done on miles from business travels), then the SW Chief back to LA and a 2 hour connection to the Coast Starlight back up the coast. I hope it works out, maybe it wont, I’m not even sure I care! My sister will join me in Chicago, and we will fight over who has to stay in the top bunk, but, well, we’ve done that a few times when we were younger. A gin and tonic in the roomette and an Amtrak steak for dinner should smooth it over. Cant wait!


----------



## OBS

ScottR said:


> This weekend, I’ll turn 62 years old, and I’ll do it as a passenger aboard the Southwest Chief. A bouncy bus ride up from Monterey to the San Fransisco airport, an overnight flight to Chicago (first class don’t you know…it’s done on miles from business travels), then the SW Chief back to LA and a 2 hour connection to the Coast Starlight back up the coast. I hope it works out, maybe it wont, I’m not even sure I care! My sister will join me in Chicago, and we will fight over who has to stay in the top bunk, but, well, we’ve done that a few times when we were younger. A gin and tonic in the roomette and an Amtrak steak for dinner should smooth it over. Cant wait!


Have a great trip and Happy Birthday....I'm right behind you, 62 in 12 days!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

ScottR said:


> This weekend, I’ll turn 62 years old, and I’ll do it as a passenger aboard the Southwest Chief. A bouncy bus ride up from Monterey to the San Fransisco airport, an overnight flight to Chicago (first class don’t you know…it’s done on miles from business travels), then the SW Chief back to LA and a 2 hour connection to the Coast Starlight back up the coast. I hope it works out, maybe it wont, I’m not even sure I care! My sister will join me in Chicago, and we will fight over who has to stay in the top bunk, but, well, we’ve done that a few times when we were younger. A gin and tonic in the roomette and an Amtrak steak for dinner should smooth it over. Cant wait!


No better place than on a train to celebrate your 62nd birthday young guy! I remember my celebrating my 62nd birthday more than a decade ago and still feel just as good now as I did then... am still training... and with a backpack!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Actually after all is said and done, the recent improvements on LD dining in the West has been pretty good except that they took out the carrot cake with that dreamy creamy white icing; my favorite thing on the menu. Why oh why did they do that?

Do you think we can introduce a bill in congress to bring back the carrot cake???


----------



## river

What? That carrot cake was delicious! What did they replace it with.? The cheesecake and the chocolate flourless cake still remain I hope. I loved all three of these desserts!


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: please keep your comments on the topic of Amtrak Dining. Several off topic posts have been recently removed.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


----------



## Cal

river said:


> What? That carrot cake was delicious! What did they replace it with.? The cheesecake and the chocolate flourless cake still remain I hope. I loved all three of these desserts!


New desserts are a lemon cake, chocolate toffee (very good, better than the old one) and a new blueberry something cheesecake. I prefer the old cheesecake and I don’t eat lemon, but still good.


----------



## Rambling Robert

On Amtrak.com 

under:
Onboard
Traditional dining
Menus

Still had the old menu with “lobster crab cake” on top. As well as the carrot cake.

That’s the site, right? I looked elsewhere and would just like to know WHERE to find the current menu.


----------



## Cal

Here


----------



## Rambling Robert

Haha.
So AU is the official site!

Something isn’t right and is Amtrak misrepresenting itself? False advertising?

“I WANT ANSWERS”
“YOU CAN’T HAVE ANY ANSWERS”
“CAN I HAVE THE CARROT CAKE?”


----------



## JC_620

Here, Here on the request for Amtrak to please bring back traditional dining to the Texas Eagle between Chicago and San Antonio. Oh, and a Sightseer Lounge car would be a welcomed addition to. But, diner first please!


----------



## cassie225

That was a potatoe?


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

Advice needed please.
We got in very late to Chicago eventually and didn't want to waste time seeking out a customer service agent to politely complain about our food experience.
Now it's Monday morning should we visit the office at Union Station in person or email the national Amtrak office.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## joelkfla

Rambling Robert said:


> Haha.
> So AU is the official site!
> 
> Something isn’t right and is Amtrak misrepresenting itself? False advertising?
> 
> “I WANT ANSWERS”
> “YOU CAN’T HAVE ANY ANSWERS”
> “CAN I HAVE THE CARROT CAKE?”


IIRC, it does say on the page: "Menus are subject to change or substitution," or words to the same effect.


----------



## Gary Moline

Traditional Dining:


A glass of wine should be a minimum 6 oz. pour. The current 5 oz. pour looks like a couple of swallows left over, if that. The pour should be no less than the small bottles were (187 ml or 6.323222 oz.).
A small garden salad should be available at all times, in addition to whatever is on the Traditional Menu.
I don’t mind smaller portions, since I always “clean my plate” unless inedible. However, a really small potato or really small entre portion is ridiculous.
If potato chips are offered, let people choose between regular and the terra chips. If I’m served terra chips, they stay on the plate (an alternative choice, yes, but dreadful).
Bread or rolls should always be an option to avoid waste.
Thank goodness the desserts have been lightened up a bit. The new Meyer Lemon Cake was very good and light.
I would like the porcelain china to come back, but only after trained staff is back to pre-pandemic levels.
Traditional Dining MUST return to the Texas Eagle (with a full dining car) and the Eastern Trains.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Gary Moline said:


> Traditional Dining:
> 
> 
> A glass of wine should be a minimum 6 oz. pour. The current 5 oz. pour looks like a couple of swallows left over, if that. The pour should be no less than the small bottles were (187 ml or 6.323222 oz.).
> A small garden salad should be available at all times, in addition to whatever is on the Traditional Menu.
> I don’t mind smaller portions, since I always “clean my plate” unless inedible. However, a really small potato or really small entre portion is ridiculous.
> If potato chips are offered, let people choose between regular and the terra chips. If I’m served terra chips, they stay on the plate (an alternative choice, yes, but dreadful).
> Bread or rolls should always be an option to avoid waste.
> Thank goodness the desserts have been lightened up a bit. The new Meyer Lemon Cake was very good and light.
> I would like the porcelain china to come back, but only after trained staff is back to pre-pandemic levels.
> Traditional Dining MUST return to the Texas Eagle (with a full dining car) and the Eastern Trains.


That's a reasonable wishlist considering the amount charged for sleeper accommodations!

I connected with someone in Amtrak management who was working calls Sunday and he told me the root of many problems is work shortages. He said Amtrak wants to bring back dining cars in the east along with full food service; hopefully repairs at Beechgrove will bring back the SSL and full service dining car to the Eaglet... as well as increase service system wide.

BTW was able to reserve a cross country trip for January but almost everything up to then is sold out due to lack of equipment and pent up post pandemic demand.


----------



## marcoloco

Sidney said:


> And traditional dining on the Eastern trains and Texas Eagle


I travel the Sunset Limited between Houston and LAX about once a month and go sleeping car. I don't know if you know how these long distance trains operate or not, but it takes 5 full time "on board" crews that live int the LAX area and make the entire round trip in 6 days. They would have to hire 5 employees (dishwashers) to accomplish going back to china. That would add an annual expense of $300-$400K cost. Can't see it happening in the near future.


----------



## tricia

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Advice needed please.
> We got in very late to Chicago eventually and didn't want to waste time seeking out a customer service agent to politely complain about our food experience.
> Now it's Monday morning should we visit the office at Union Station in person or email the national Amtrak office.
> Thanks in advance.


Email or call Customer Relations at Amtrak--I don't think the folks at Union Station will be helpful. If you don't have time to do that right now, make some notes about your experience so you remember details.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Advice needed please.
> We got in very late to Chicago eventually and didn't want to waste time seeking out a customer service agent to politely complain about our food experience.
> Now it's Monday morning should we visit the office at Union Station in person or email the national Amtrak office.
> Thanks in advance.


Call and ask to speak to customer service... they are probably well aware of the food problems on your train... and probably got complaints from others. It can't hurt to politely request a full refund as per operational problems. At least you will get a travel credit voucher of a few hundred. These can be valuable for future travels.


----------



## Rambling Robert

joelkfla said:


> IIRC, it does say on the page: "Menus are subject to change or substitution," or words to the same effect.


It does not say “”Menus are subject to change or substitution," or words to the same effect.”

... and even if it does show those words - the new menu has been in effect for SIX WEEKS ... when a food menu changes the new menu should be easily accessible on the website in a timely manner. That includes the section “food facts” which shows nutritional value for each menu item.

The menu changed six weeks ago but the website didn't and is misrepresenting the dining experience on the LD/western trains.

Clearly a case of management not caring about the dining experience on Amtrak!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cassie225 said:


> That was a potatoe?


It was. It was a good baked potato and pretty filling for what it was. It just needs a side salad to make it a full meal. 

Actually, a side salad should be an option for all lunch and dinner meals.


----------



## joelkfla

Rambling Robert said:


> It does not say “”Menus are subject to change or substitution," or words to the same effect.”
> 
> ... and even if it does show those words - the new menu has been in effect for SIX WEEKS ... when a food menu changes the new menu should be easily accessible on the website in a timely manner. That includes the section “food facts” which shows nutritional value for each menu item.
> 
> The MENU CHANGED six weeks ago but the website DIDN’T and is misrepresenting the dining experience on the LD/western trains.
> 
> Clearly a case of MANAGEMENT NOT CARING ANOUT THE DINING EXPERIENCE ON AMTRAK!


----------



## zephyr17

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Advice needed please.
> We got in very late to Chicago eventually and didn't want to waste time seeking out a customer service agent to politely complain about our food experience.
> Now it's Monday morning should we visit the office at Union Station in person or email the national Amtrak office.
> Thanks in advance.


You should call Customer Relations. Chicago staff is not renowned for being customer oriented, and is not empowered in any case. Amtrak is very slow is responding to emails, assuming they do. They don't always.

Customer Relations (_not_ "Customer Service") is empowered and responsive once you get through to them. Call Amtrak, ask for an agent, once you get an agent, ask to be connected to Customer Relations. You may have to insist. They are only there during normal business hours Monday-Friday, Eastern time.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Thanks for you post. I agree with your mark-up in red. To me I read all that as minor changes and not revision. It would help if the menus themselves are not labeled “SAMPLE MENU” and more important the menus were updated over six weeks ago and still not shown on the website.

Also the “food facts” need to reflect the changes. Why be concerned about the nutritional value of the menu if it’s out of date ... nearly two months.

I’m hoping it’s not a matter of not caring when a major menu change occurs but a simple oversight about posting it as the new sample.


----------



## Dakota 400

Gary Moline said:


> f potato chips are offered, let people choose between regular and the terra chips. If I’m served terra chips, they stay on the plate (an alternative choice, yes, but dreadful).



I have tried the terra chips. but, I usually thought the potato chips served were lame. Either a cheap brand or they were stale. Once in awhile, they were satisfactory, but, not as good as some major national brands or my local made brand.


----------



## JWM

Why does Amtrak post separate links to trains that offer "traditional dining" when the menus are all the same? Also, saying "Amtrak" and "dining" in the same sentence makes me laugh.


----------



## trimetbusfan

JWM said:


> Why does Amtrak post separate links to trains that offer "traditional dining" when the menus are all the same? Also, saying "Amtrak" and "dining" in the same sentence makes me laugh.


The menus used to vary by route.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Dakota 400 said:


> I have tried the terra chips. but, I usually thought the potato chips served were lame. Either a cheap brand or they were stale. Once in awhile, they were satisfactory, but, not as good as some major national brands or my local made brand.


Depends on which commissary the train received it’s food from.


----------



## RRrich

I used to take to take trips on Amtrak for fun. Great scenery. pleasant surroundings and *good food*. Until my friends stop making reasonable complaints about the food. I won't ride Amtrak "for fun" as I enjoy *good food* and would not be pleased with the dining experiences I am hearing about. I hope my friends here will continue to post their honest opinions about eating on Amtrak


----------



## danasgoodstuff

RRrich said:


> I used to take to take trips on Amtrak for fun. Great scenery. pleasant surrondings and GOOD FOOD. Until my friends stop making reasonable complaints about the food. I won't ride Amtrak "for fun" as I enjoy GOOD FOOD and would not be pleased with the dining experiences I am hearing about. I hope my friends here will continue to post their honest opinions about eating on Amtrak


When I rode cross country in April and May of this year, I found the food on the Western Trains to be quite good - food I would happily pay real money for.


----------



## joelkfla

danasgoodstuff said:


> When I rode cross country in April and May of this year, I found the food on the Western Trains to be quite good - food I would happily pay real money for.


And from what I've seen, that's generally true for trains that have returned to Traditional Dining. Sure there's an occasional foul-up, or kvetching about liking an old dessert better, but most people seem quite satisfied. And it's a good thing that they're changing the menu from time to time, especially if they can't have different menus on different routes.


----------



## Sidney

joelkfla said:


> And from what I've seen, that's generally true for trains that have returned to Traditional Dining. Sure there's an occasional foul-up, or kvetching about liking an old dessert better, but most people seem quite satisfied. And it's a good thing that they're changing the menu from time to time, especially if they can't have different menus on different routes.


Since it's return traditional dining has been great. I have always said good cooked to order food has always been an integral part of the Amtrak experience. Hard to believe it's been over four years since Richard Anderson introduced flex food,saying it was a new revolutionary adventure in dining.
Never have I heard such a positive spin on one of Amtrak's biggest blunders.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Dakota 400 said:


> I have tried the terra chips. but, I usually thought the potato chips served were lame. Either a cheap brand or they were stale. Once in awhile, they were satisfactory, but, not as good as some major national brands or my local made brand.


When I was riding the Empire Builder to & from college in the '70s, plain potato chips were the default side for lunch in the dining car, and were pretty lame. (I don't think Terra Chips were around yet at that point.) I'd eat the Terra Chips, but then I'll usually eat almost any kind of chips in preference to plain potato chips.


----------



## Asher

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Advice needed please.
> We got in very late to Chicago eventually and didn't want to waste time seeking out a customer service agent to politely complain about our food experience.
> Now it's Monday morning should we visit the office at Union Station in person or email the national Amtrak office.
> Thanks in advance.


You can complain here for all the good its going to do.☺


----------



## TEREB

I am NOT a fan of flex meals. That being said, I think if they didn’t over cook or burn the meals, they’re not that bad. 
On our northbound Silver 92 in June, I ate Cheerios for breakfast and for lunch. For dinner I ordered the salmon and shrimp. I liked that they gave me lime wedges instead of tiny lemon pieces. Dry but not that bad. Needed a little dipping sauce. 
My husband on the other hand got an omelette that was burnt on the bottom and around the edges, and overcooked, burnt stinky broccoli on his overly dried out chicken a la Rosa. Thank goodness I packed a chicken cutlet sandwich for his lunch. 
On our upcoming 91 I plan on packing some of the goodies from the lounge.


----------



## Rasputin

A friend told me that she had been on the Empire Builder a few weeks ago as a sleeping car passenger from Chicago to Whitefish. Apparently sometime on the day leaving Chicago, the crew reported that the dining car had been damaged by a fire in the kitchen. She said dinner on the first day came from Subway and on the second day, came from Pizza Hut. I don't know how breakfast and lunch were handled.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TEREB said:


> I am NOT a fan of flex meals. That being said, I think if they didn’t over cook or burn the meals, they’re not that bad.
> On our northbound Silver 92 in June, I ate Cheerios for breakfast and for lunch. For dinner I ordered the salmon and shrimp. I liked that they gave me lime wedges instead of tiny lemon pieces. Dry but not that bad. Needed a little dipping sauce.
> My husband on the other hand got an omelette that was burnt on the bottom and around the edges, and overcooked, burnt stinky broccoli on his overly dried out chicken a la Rosa. Thank goodness I packed a chicken cutlet sandwich for his lunch.
> On our upcoming 91 I plan on packing some of the goodies from the lounge.
> 
> View attachment 29106
> View attachment 29107
> View attachment 29108


They did make a notable improvement on the flex meals about a year ago... more taste for sure. The agent who I spoke with recently indicated the return of full service dining and the placement of those beautiful dining cars back on the Eastern trains... and that the pandemic has hit Amtrak just as it did the airlines... with work and supply shortages.

So stay tuned and let's see what happens!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> The agent who I spoke with recently indicated the return of full service dining and the placement of those beautiful dining cars back on the Eastern trains... and that the pandemic has hit Amtrak just as it did the airlines... with work and supply shortages.


of course the flex meals began on the eastern trains well before the pandemic.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> of course the flex meals began on the eastern trains well before the pandemic.


That's true, but OTOH the pandemic's aftereffects on labor are making it difficult to expand services to pre-pandemic levels. So Flex is not a product of the pandemic, but the inability to return to Traditional partially is.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> That's true, but OTOH the pandemic's aftereffects on labor are making it difficult to expand services to pre-pandemic levels. So Flex is not a product of the pandemic, but the inability to return to Traditional partially is.


Possibly. I’m not entirely convinced Amtrak wants traditional dining back on all trains. But I’m hopeful it will come back.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> of course the flex meals began on the eastern trains well before the pandemic.


Actually there was something even less attractive than the Flex Meals called Contemporary Dining which the Millenials were allegedly supposed to love - that was introduced in the LSL when they ran out of serviceable Diners while the Viewliner II Diners were delayed for almost a decade. It did not have any hot dish for dinner or breakfast! And then even that pretense went away when they discontinued Dining altogether on the Silver Star. So we have come a long way baby!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> Actually there was something even less attractive than the Flex Meals called Contemporary Dining which the Millenials were allegedly supposed to love - that was introduced in the LSL when they ran out of serviceable Diners while the Viewliner II Diners were delayed for almost a decade. It did not have any hot dish for dinner or breakfast! And then even that pretense went away when they discontinued Dining altogether on the Silver Star. So we have come a long way baby!


TG Anderson's idea is long gone... 'gone with the wind!'


----------



## RRrich

crescent-zephyr said:


> Possibly. I’m not entirely convinced Amtrak wants traditional dining back on all trains. But I’m hopeful it will come back.


Amtrak may not want to return to traditional dining from (inflexible) flex eating but I suspect that the passengers do


----------



## joelkfla

RRrich said:


> Amtrak may not want to return to traditional dining from (inflexible) flex eating but I suspect that the passengers do


As do the OBS, from all reports.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Actually there was something even less attractive than the Flex Meals called Contemporary Dining which the Millenials were allegedly supposed to love - that was introduced in the LSL when they ran out of serviceable Diners while the Viewliner II Diners were delayed for almost a decade. It did not have any hot dish for dinner or breakfast! And then even that pretense went away when they discontinued Dining altogether on the Silver Star. So we have come a long way baby!


I never got to try Contemporary Dining but I think I may have preferred it to the flex dining. I know the “cold” meal I recently had on American Air was way better than flex dining. 

Contemporary was only on the Lake Shore and one other train correct? I know I had just missed the full dining car when I took the meteor. They went from full dining to flex on October 1.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I never got to try Contemporary Dining but I think I may have preferred it to the flex dining. I know the “cold” meal I recently had on American Air was way better than flex dining.


Actually Flex came out of contemporary as they added more hot dishes. There was a version of contemporary with an omelette in its latter days for breakfast. They also added first one and then two hot dishes for dinner, essentially the same fare as in Flex.

I had the several versions on the LSL.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Actually Flex came out of contemporary as they added more hot dishes. There was a version of contemporary with an omelette in its latter days for breakfast. They also added first one and then two hot dishes for dinner, essentially the same fare as in Flex.
> 
> I had the several versions on the LSL.


Did you think the salads were higher quality than the hot “flex” meals?


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Did you think the salads were higher quality than the hot “flex” meals?


Possibly, but it was small and it looked like they used a special compressing tool to stuff it tight in the serving container. 

But then again I don’t much care about salads, so how it was did not concern me much 

But I don’t know of too many who did not complain about the lack of hot items, nice salad or not.


----------



## Rasputin

The last meal I had on the Lake Shore was in May of 2019 on No. 48. I think that was close to the end of Contemporary Dining and just before the introduction of flex dining. 

The Contemporary Dining salad was extremely small. It made the garden salad served on the western trains appear gigantic by comparison.


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> The Contemporary Dining salad was extremely small. It made the garden salad served on the western trains appear gigantic.


Extremely small and extremely compressed as I seem to recall


----------



## Bob Dylan

Seriously, you would NOT have liked the Contemporary Meals served on the LSL and the Cap! 

They're still the worst Meals I've ever had on any type of Transportation anywhere in the World.( the Boxes were nice, but they created lots of Waste!)


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Seriously, you would NOT have liked the Contemporary Meals served on the LSL and the Cap!
> 
> They're still the worst Meals I've ever had on any type of Transportation anywhere in the World.( the Boxes were nice, but they created lots of Waste!)


Oh yeah! Those cute Balsa boxes! They always made me think of the model flying planes I used to build and fly when I was a kid.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I never got to try Contemporary Dining but I think I may have preferred it to the flex dining. I know the “cold” meal I recently had on American Air was way better than flex dining.
> 
> Contemporary was only on the Lake Shore and one other train correct? I know I had just missed the full dining car when I took the meteor. They went from full dining to flex on October 1.


Maybe a few people would have preferred it but the overwhelming feedback was negative on all cold meals and the number 1 complaint they got was lack of hot meals. The switch from the boxes to flex meals was due to the negative feedback. The first revision to contemporary dining added in a single hot option (beef short ribs) that was the precursor to the flex meals. The next revision added more hot options. The name change to “flexible” occurred when they extended it to the Meteor and Crescent. But at that point contemporary dining was essentially what flex dining is now - with flex dining they essentially introduced that black plastic tray that they use to try to improve the presentation a bit.


----------



## WWW

Those balsa boxes could be mistaken for an edible taco salad if used today -
A waste even more than the poly strofoam stuff -


----------



## Barb Stout

20th Century Rider said:


> Actually after all is said and done, the recent improvements on LD dining in the West has been pretty good except that they took out the carrot cake with that dreamy creamy white icing; my favorite thing on the menu. Why oh why did they do that?
> 
> Do you think we can introduce a bill in congress to bring back the carrot cake???


We recently returned from a trip on the SWC and one of our partners at the table told us that on their outgoing trip, Amtrak ran out of the lemon cake that replaced the carrot cake, but they did have carrot cake on board, so our table partners had the carrot cake. I guess that would have been last week. So I guess they still have some squirreled away.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> with flex dining they essentially introduced that black plastic tray that they use to try to improve the presentation a bit.


Sometimes -- recently some of the Flex meals I had in the diner were handed to me at the kitchen door in standard cardboard carryout trays. And I had to ask for the mini-salad.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> Sometimes -- recently some of the Flex meals I had in the diner were handed to me at the kitchen door in standard cardboard carryout trays. And I had to ask for the mini-salad.


Me too. The tray is the way they are supposed to do it but In practice…:


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> Me too. The tray is the way they are supposed to do it but In practice…:


Maybe the Flex trays are mysteriously disappearing to the same place as the VL II mattresses.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Barb Stout said:


> We recently returned from a trip on the SWC and one of our partners at the table told us that on their outgoing trip, Amtrak ran out of the lemon cake that replaced the carrot cake, but they did have carrot cake on board, so our table partners had the carrot cake. I guess that would have been last week. So I guess they still have some squirreled away.


On a recent trip on the coast starlight, they had all 3 of the current deserts in addition to the old chocolate torte desert.


----------



## trimetbusfan

joelkfla said:


> Maybe the Flex trays are mysteriously disappearing to the same place as the VL II mattresses.


When I rode the crecent recently, the crew had a whole bag of these trays stacked on one of the cafe tables. They never actually used any.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Amazing that in all the years now what’s it been, 4-5 years? Amtrak refuses to give Acela first class meals a try on the Eastern trains. I wouldn’t be surprised after the 12 month study that’s going on in conjunction with RPA that’s one possible solution.

Acela first class meals would probably appease 70 percent of riders where as that number is probably closer to 30 percent with with Flexible meals.

Of course with all things Amtrak now there’s reasons that can’t happen. Wrong commissaries, wrong equipment (might be too hard to heat Acela first meals in a full dining car, lol) the list goes on. The main reason being apathy at the leadership level in my opinion.


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Amazing that in all the years now what’s it been, 4-5 years? Amtrak refuses to give Acela first class meals a try on the Eastern trains. I wouldn’t be surprised after the 12 month study that’s going on in conjunction with RPA that’s one possible solution.
> 
> Acela first class meals would probably appease 70 percent of riders where as that number is probably closer to 30 percent with with Flexible meals.
> 
> Of course with all things Amtrak now there’s reasons that can’t happen. Wrong commissaries, wrong equipment (might be too hard to heat Acela first meals in a full dining car, lol) the list goes on. The main reason being apathy at the leadership level in my opinion.


There isn't a heck of a lot of difference between some of the Acela first meals and flexible dining at least food quality wise from my experience. Though the presentation on Acela first is much better. The Acela first menu is somewhat limited for an overnight trip but it could certainly be used as a starting point of how to do it better. In my opinion when flex dining meals are properly heated and served they aren't all that bad. But Acela First definitely has better consistency in properly heating the meals. Possibly because it's run with two crew members instead of just one like with flexible dining.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Amazing that in all the years now what’s it been, 4-5 years? Amtrak refuses to give Acela first class meals a try on the Eastern trains. I wouldn’t be surprised after the 12 month study that’s going on in conjunction with RPA that’s one possible solution.
> 
> Acela first class meals would probably appease 70 percent of riders where as that number is probably closer to 30 percent with with Flexible meals.
> 
> Of course with all things Amtrak now there’s reasons that can’t happen. Wrong commissaries, wrong equipment (might be too hard to heat Acela first meals in a full dining car, lol) the list goes on. The main reason being apathy at the leadership level in my opinion.


Acela 1st class meals are a bit small but very high quality. Anything is possible except where brick walls block any decent possibilities.


----------



## freejak

TEREB said:


> I am NOT a fan of flex meals. That being said, I think if they didn’t over cook or burn the meals, they’re not that bad.
> On our northbound Silver 92 in June, I ate Cheerios for breakfast and for lunch. For dinner I ordered the salmon and shrimp. I liked that they gave me lime wedges instead of tiny lemon pieces. Dry but not that bad. Needed a little dipping sauce.
> My husband on the other hand got an omelette that was burnt on the bottom and around the edges, and overcooked, burnt stinky broccoli on his overly dried out chicken a la Rosa. Thank goodness I packed a chicken cutlet sandwich for his lunch.
> On our upcoming 91 I plan on packing some of the goodies from the lounge.
> 
> View attachment 29106
> View attachment 29107
> View attachment 29108


Thanks for the photos! A picture is worth a thousand Flex Meals.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Breakfast and lunch on todays Coast Starlight. Great food! 

Scrambled eggs could come plain, with or without cheese, and with or without all veggies. The eggs and potatoes were both excellent. 

The salad was quite good, very good flavors and good quality ingredients. Good portion for an entree salad. 

Chocolate cake was good. I liked it better than the lemon cake but not as good as the cheesecake.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Breakfast and lunch on todays Coast Starlight. Great food!
> 
> Scrambled eggs could come plain, with or without cheese, and with or without all veggies. The eggs and potatoes were both excellent.
> 
> The salad was quite good, very good flavors and good quality ingredients. Good portion for an entree salad.
> 
> Chocolate cake was good. I liked it better than the lemon cake but not as good as the cheesecake.
> 
> View attachment 29140
> View attachment 29141
> View attachment 29142


Enjoy the trip.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Breakfast and lunch on todays Coast Starlight. Great food!
> 
> Scrambled eggs could come plain, with or without cheese, and with or without all veggies. The eggs and potatoes were both excellent.
> 
> The salad was quite good, very good flavors and good quality ingredients. Good portion for an entree salad.
> 
> Chocolate cake was good. I liked it better than the lemon cake but not as good as the cheesecake.
> 
> View attachment 29140


That's a take! The joy of dining on a train as the world goes by!!!






crescent-zephyr said:


> View attachment 29141
> View attachment 29142


----------



## toddinde

marcoloco said:


> I travel the Sunset Limited between Houston and LAX about once a month and go sleeping car. I don't know if you know how these long distance trains operate or not, but it takes 5 full time "on board" crews that live int the LAX area and make the entire round trip in 6 days. They would have to hire 5 employees (dishwashers) to accomplish going back to china. That would add an annual expense of $300-$400K cost. Can't see it happening in the near future.


I'm not convinced of that. That assumes that you need a dedicated dishwasher and that the existing crew can't handle the work of washing dishes which is highly automated. You put the plates and silver wear in the dishwasher, and it comes out. The Superliners always had dishwashers. In addition, there is cost savings from not having to use disposable plates and cutlery. I'm not buying it.


----------



## Cal

Oh my sunset several weeks ago they were out of multiple items and ran out further as the trip progressed. I’ve been procrastinating a trip report.


----------



## marcoloco

toddinde said:


> I'm not convinced of that. That assumes that you need a dedicated dishwasher and that the existing crew can't handle the work of washing dishes which is highly automated. You put the plates and silver wear in the dishwasher, and it comes out. The Superliners always had dishwashers. In addition, there is cost savings from not having to use disposable plates and cutlery. I'm not buying it.


I agree with you 100 percent, but there's the union to deal with and a bunch of picky regulations and BS. And your right, the existing crew could very easily handle the work. Have you ever traveled the Coast Starling southbound into LAX? They don't want to serve any passengers boading at Santa Barbara (dining car that is) They make the existing passengers make dinner reservations at the latest 5PM and sometines even start at 4:45pm, If they could move it up an hour, it would help. The train doesn't even arrive at LAX till 9PM.The crew is in such a hurry to get off, afraid they might still be working for a FEW MINUTES when the train arrives at LAX. They like to sit on there ass for at least the last hour of the trip, but ended up sitting on their ass a whole lot longer by making the passengers eat so darn early. Again, right now Amtrak is under very poor management right now.


----------



## cassie225

That’s so sad, wow!!!


----------



## MARC Rider

marcoloco said:


> .The crew is in such a hurry to get off, afraid they might still be working for a FEW MINUTES when the train arrives at LAX.


This may also be a management desire not to have to pay them any more than is needed. Otherwise, they could stay on the clock serving passengers until the destination, and then stay on the clock making more money (and maybe even overtime) cleaning up and shutting down after arrival.

That may also be a reason why they chase everybody out of the sleepers on early arriving trains like the Sunset Limited into LA.

It may not be lazy workers, it could just as easily be skinfint management.


----------



## TRA_Thom

I was on the City of New Orleans yesterday, from Chicago to Champaign. 
I noticed that after we left Chicago, they would call two sleepers at a time to come pick up their meal from the cafe and eat it in the SSL. They also didn’t open the cafe to coach passengers until all the sleepers had gotten their dinner. 
At Champaign, I overheard one of the station staff talking to the conductor. He was surprised that there was no dining car. The conductor explained the new process, saying that this was Amtrak’s new policy for the CONO. They also said that the next NB CONO would be the last one with a dining car.


----------



## Cal

marcoloco said:


> I agree with you 100 percent, but there's the union to deal with and a bunch of picky regulations and BS. And your right, the existing crew could very easily handle the work. Have you ever traveled the Coast Starling southbound into LAX? They don't want to serve any passengers boading at Santa Barbara (dining car that is) They make the existing passengers make dinner reservations at the latest 5PM and sometines even start at 4:45pm, If they could move it up an hour, it would help. The train doesn't even arrive at LAX till 9PM.The crew is in such a hurry to get off, afraid they might still be working for a FEW MINUTES when the train arrives at LAX. They like to sit on there ass for at least the last hour of the trip, but ended up sitting on their ass a whole lot longer by making the passengers eat so darn early. Again, right now Amtrak is under very poor management right now.


The starlight often arrives an hour early into LAX if not late, there’s a lot of padding there.


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

anumberone said:


> You can complain here for all the good its going to do.☺


Looks like I may have to take you up on your offer.
Three days later no reply to my polite email.
They really don't care do they ?


----------



## Palmland

TRA_Thom said:


> At Champaign, I overheard one of the station staff talking to the conductor. He was surprised that there was no dining car. The conductor explained the new process, saying that this was Amtrak’s new policy for the CONO. They also said that the next NB CONO would be the last one with a dining car.


 I wonder if the Texas Eagle will be next?

And, I thought the SSL was still on the CONO because they needed it for the CN axle count requirement. This doesn't make sense. Maybe it's short the diner just for this round trip.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

marcoloco said:


> I agree with you 100 percent, but there's the union to deal with and a bunch of picky regulations and BS. And your right, the existing crew could very easily handle the work. Have you ever traveled the Coast Starling southbound into LAX? They don't want to serve any passengers boading at Santa Barbara (dining car that is) They make the existing passengers make dinner reservations at the latest 5PM and sometines even start at 4:45pm, If they could move it up an hour, it would help. The train doesn't even arrive at LAX till 9PM.The crew is in such a hurry to get off, afraid they might still be working for a FEW MINUTES when the train arrives at LAX. They like to sit on there ass for at least the last hour of the trip, but ended up sitting on their ass a whole lot longer by making the passengers eat so darn early. Again, right now Amtrak is under very poor management right now.


Yup... I've experienced CS dining car staff laziness and selfishness... getting done quickly so they can sit back and relax hours before arriving at LAX... but when it comes to tipping... they certainly do have their hand extended!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TRA_Thom said:


> I was on the City of New Orleans yesterday, from Chicago to Champaign.
> I noticed that after we left Chicago, they would call two sleepers at a time to come pick up their meal from the cafe and eat it in the SSL. They also didn’t open the cafe to coach passengers until all the sleepers had gotten their dinner.
> At Champaign, I overheard one of the station staff talking to the conductor. He was surprised that there was no dining car. The conductor explained the new process, saying that this was Amtrak’s new policy for the CONO. They also said that the next NB CONO would be the last one with a dining car.


Question for you TRA_Thom... was there dinner service out of Chicago? They leave at 8:05pm I believe. The Amtrak agent said they don't when I ordered Kosher meals for the trip. Your info would be kindly appreciated!


----------



## tricia

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Looks like I may have to take you up on your offer.
> Three days later no reply to my polite email.
> They really don't care do they ?


In my experience, it can take weeks for them to reply to an email. Sometimes the reply is on-point and satistactory, sometimes not so much.


----------



## saxpower

MARC Rider said:


> This may also be a management desire not to have to pay them any more than is needed. Otherwise, they could stay on the clock serving passengers until the destination, and then stay on the clock making more money (and maybe even overtime) cleaning up and shutting down after arrival.
> 
> That may also be a reason why they chase everybody out of the sleepers on early arriving trains like the Sunset Limited into LA.
> 
> It may not be lazy workers, it could just as easily be skinfint management.



Some employers actually prohibit employees from working "unauthroized" overtime. If Amtrak does so, the employees are in a position where they must both close out/clean the cafe/dining car to Amtrak's standards and do so without triggering overtime. Depending on what they are specifically required to do, as well as staffing issues, they may have no choice but to close it down early in order to meet both requirements.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

saxpower said:


> Some employers actually prohibit employees from working "unauthroized" overtime. If Amtrak does so, the employees are in a position where they must both close out/clean the cafe/dining car to Amtrak's standards and do so without triggering overtime. Depending on what they are specifically required to do, as well as staffing issues, they may have no choice but to close it down early in order to meet both requirements.


Again... management / policy issues go against what is best for the customer! Grrrrr!


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

In a way I hope Gardner and Co do pull the trigger get rid of more dining cars, reduce service to 3x weekly in Oct as rumored, go against Congress’s wishes, etc. Management needs to be called to the carpet on their lame, disingenuous excuses.

Congress, States and advocacy organizations need a loud and clear wake up call. Business as usual can’t go on. Things need to come to a head before it’s too late.

I wonder if getting rid of the CONO dinner came up in the latest food prep working group that still has almost a year to come out with ideas.


----------



## Asher

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Looks like I may have to take you up on your offer.
> Three days later no reply to my polite email.
> They really don't care do they ?


We’re here for you.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> In a way I hope Gardner and Co do pull the trigger get rid of more dining cars, reduce service to 3x weekly in Oct as rumored, go against Congress’s wishes, etc. Management needs to be called to the carpet on their lame, disingenuous excuses.
> 
> Congress, States and advocacy organizations need a loud and clear wake up call. Business as usual can’t go on. Things need to come to a head one way or another.
> 
> I wonder if getting rid of the CONO dinner came up in the latest food prep working group that still has almost a year to come out with ideas.


But, um, I heard from an Amtrak exec who was taking reservation calls, about a month ago, that all diners are coming back to Eastern trains, along with the restoration of full meal service!

Of course, with management being so upside down with 'what end is up?' this doesn't surprise me. The overall trend, it seems, is a consistent digression towards no Amtrak at all.

The elimination of service of an American institution is sad, frustrating, and totally unnecessary. 
The elimination of Amtrak service when so important to the environment and economy...

Bad choice folks.


----------



## TRA_Thom

20th Century Rider said:


> Question for you TRA_Thom... was there dinner service out of Chicago? They leave at 8:05pm I believe. The Amtrak agent said they don't when I ordered Kosher meals for the trip. Your info would be kindly appreciated!


I believe there was, at least 4 rooms were called to pick up their meals, which I could see (and smell) them eat in the observation car.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Thank you! It will be interesting to see if they still have the dinner or perhaps that will be cut too before my February departure. No telling with Amtrak!


----------



## marcoloco

MARC Rider said:


> This may also be a management desire not to have to pay them any more than is needed. Otherwise, they could stay on the clock serving passengers until the destination, and then stay on the clock making more money (and maybe even overtime) cleaning up and shutting down after arrival.
> 
> That may also be a reason why they chase everybody out of the sleepers on early arriving trains like the Sunset Limited into LA.
> 
> It may not be lazy workers, it could just as easily be skinfint management.


Yes and by the way, sleeping car passengers have the right to occupy their room till 5:35AM, many don't know this. It's an Amtrak rule. I complained about that once, and won (Train #1 Sunset Limited). As for the Southbound Coast Starlight, I mean really, they could have a 7PM seating for dinner and have everything cleaned up in plenty of time and get alot more extra business and revenue (that's what it's all about right, more income?). As I said in my last reply, the dining car crew sits around doing nothing for last hour and a half of the trip minimum, most times more than that. All the dishes are throw away.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

marcoloco said:


> Yes and by the way, sleeping car passengers have the right to occupy their room till 5:35AM, many don't know this. It's an Amtrak rule. I complained about that once, and won (Train #1 Sunset Limited). As for the Southbound Coast Starlight, I mean really, they could have a 7PM seating for dinner and have everything cleaned up in plenty of time and get alot more extra business and revenue (that's what it's all about right, more income?). As I said in my last reply, the dining car crew sits around doing nothing for last hour and a half of the trip minimum, most times more than that. All the dishes are throw away.


Amtrak wants to save money by pushing back service and chasing pax off early arriving trains??? 

Amtrak needs to be more focused on quality service for pax paying high high high and rising higher ... sleeping car prices... rather than cutting away service that it's clientele have paid so dearly for.

Ridiculous! Gimme a break!


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> I heard from an Amtrak exec who was taking reservation calls, about a month ago, that all diners are coming back to Eastern trains, along with the restoration of full meal service!



An Amtrak executive taking reservation calls? This seems a bit unusual. Doesn't this person have anything better to do?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> An Amtrak executive taking reservation calls? This seems a bit unusual. Doesn't this person have anything better to do?


He said that he was pitching in at the call center.


----------



## river

I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).

We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.

On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.

Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.

That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.

I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.

Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

river said:


> I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).
> 
> We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.
> 
> On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.
> 
> Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
> Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
> For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.
> 
> That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.
> 
> I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?


Adding grief to misery! Flex is bad enough but now we're hearing more and more about food not getting boarded onto trains. The CONO and TE seem to be getting hit the most... and there's no excuse for food not being boarded in CHI which is a major Amtrak hub. What gives Amtrak???

I'm sure customer service is being inundated with complaints... and perhaps the 'service' part of customer service is declining as well.

Sleeper car passengers should now always be prepared for food service problems which are occurring more and more frequently. Will be on the CONO next Feb and will stock up on dinner and food items available around the station.

And as all this is going on, those fares just seem to be going up and up


----------



## river

I actually boarded the southbound CONO in Homewood at 8:45 pm (first stop after Chicago) so didn't expect supper. I didn't know there was no food for the sleepers until breakfast the next morning. The attendant said there was no supper last night for the sleeping cars, so don't know what they did for supper. And this was a sold out train. 

















)


----------



## Sidney

Totally unacceptable. Amtrak has hit a new low with this and other horror stories about pulling roomettes at the last minute and cancelling trains. Ask for a full refund.


----------



## joelkfla

It's time for letters to congressmen.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Totally unacceptable. Amtrak has hit a new low with this and other horror stories about pulling roomettes at the last minute and cancelling trains. Ask for a full refund.





joelkfla said:


> It's time for letters to congressmen.


Environmental sustainability? There's Amtrak while it's still running. 

After that, shall we walk or perhaps take a bike? 

Is anyone in DC listening?


----------



## PaTrainFan

They pinch pennies on the one hand, yet what is the cost of the vouchers they constantly hand out for shoddy experiences? I vaguely recall an IG report a few years ago that spelled this out. And there is the huge cost of losing forever first time Amtrak riders. Of course, there is a large cohort of those who have no idea they can get recompense for poor service and they don't bother.


----------



## river

On our recent City of New Orleans round trip, I was traveling with 4 additional companions, so we had two roomettes and one bedroom. I paid for 3 round trip sleeping car rooms and none of us got the standard, expected meals with this trip. 

Does anyone know the "worth" of the breakfast, lunch, and dinner of the flex dining menu when Amtrak determines the accomodation charge. For example I read that traditional dining for dinner is valued at $45. I assume the Flex Dining menu may be valued at a slightly lower rate.
I would like to do the math and see what the meals are worth according to Amtrak so I can determine at a minimum what I should be refunded. This issue of sleeping car meals not being loaded on to the CONO at 2 major Amtrak hubs (Chicago and New Orleans) diminished our enjoyment of our trip. 

I will not go into the additional gross toilet problem that we had in our bedroom on this thread...we are talking food. 
I will save that for my communication with Amtrak.


----------



## trimetbusfan

river said:


> On our recent City of New Orleans round trip, I was traveling with 4 additional companions, so we had two roomettes and one bedroom. I paid for 3 round trip sleeping car rooms and none of us got the standard, expected meals with this trip.
> 
> Does anyone know the "worth" of the breakfast, lunch, and dinner of the flex dining menu when Amtrak determines the accomodation charge. For example I read that traditional dining for dinner is valued at $45. I assume the Flex Dining menu may be valued at a slightly lower rate.
> I would like to do the math and see what the meals are worth according to Amtrak so I can determine at a minimum what I should be refunded. This issue of sleeping car meals not being loaded on to the CONO at 2 major Amtrak hubs (Chicago and New Orleans) diminished our enjoyment of our trip.
> 
> I will not go into the additional gross toilet problem that we had in our bedroom on this thread...we are talking food.
> I will save that for my communication with Amtrak.


I would expect a couple of hundred dollars in compensation at least. Especially considering you had multiple rooms and multiple issues.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

river said:


> On our recent City of New Orleans round trip, I was traveling with 4 additional companions, so we had two roomettes and one bedroom. I paid for 3 round trip sleeping car rooms and none of us got the standard, expected meals with this trip.
> 
> Does anyone know the "worth" of the breakfast, lunch, and dinner of the flex dining menu when Amtrak determines the accomodation charge. For example I read that traditional dining for dinner is valued at $45. I assume the Flex Dining menu may be valued at a slightly lower rate.
> I would like to do the math and see what the meals are worth according to Amtrak so I can determine at a minimum what I should be refunded. This issue of sleeping car meals not being loaded on to the CONO at 2 major Amtrak hubs (Chicago and New Orleans) diminished our enjoyment of our trip.
> 
> I will not go into the additional gross toilet problem that we had in our bedroom on this thread...we are talking food.
> I will save that for my communication with Amtrak.


I've been told by car attendants that those flex meals are available to Amtrak staff for $25 [HAHA!] They aren't worth it. However your refund should be reflective of the inconvenience and overall poor customer service... They should give you a travel credit voucher of a few hundred dollars for inconvenience and poor customer service. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Cal

river said:


> I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).
> 
> We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.
> 
> On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.
> 
> Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
> Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
> For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.
> 
> That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.
> 
> I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?


You know it’s bad when we’re disappointed we didn’t get flex…


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> They pinch pennies on the one hand, yet what is the cost of the vouchers they constantly hand out for shoddy experiences? I vaguely recall an IG report a few years ago that spelled this out. And there is the huge cost of losing forever first time Amtrak riders. Of course, there is a large cohort of those who have no idea they can get recompense for poor service and they don't bother.


Makes no sense! Or $cents!


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## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> You know it’s bad when we’re disappointed we didn’t get flex…


For some reason the CONO has problems boarding meals... that shouldn't be especially in Chicago from which departs at around 8 LD depending on the day.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Well if it's any consolation... we're not missing much as far as those Flex meals. I'm eyeing a circle trip of sorts for the fall, Wolv to Chicago and then CONO (first time) to NOL for an overnight and then the Crescent up to Durham, NC (involves transfer at Greensboro). Not going to count on any decent food (but please have those fabulous brownies or cakes) on either of the LD trains. 
CONO departs Chicago late, 8 pm. I don't eat dinner that late so no issues there. If I can get coffee in the morning can hold off on getting a meal until later. I'll bring snacks. Interestingly, it's proving to be difficult finding a train with rooms available, they must book up way in advance. For all of our complaints about Amtrak food, those trains are selling out. I can only surmise, not much incentive to improve anything when they continue to sell out.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Michigan Mom said:


> Well if it's any consolation... we're not missing much as far as those Flex meals. I'm eyeing a circle trip of sorts for the fall, Wolv to Chicago and then CONO (first time) to NOL for an overnight and then the Crescent up to Durham, NC (involves transfer at Greensboro). Not going to count on any decent food (but please have those fabulous brownies or cakes) on either of the LD trains.
> CONO departs Chicago late, 8 pm. I don't eat dinner that late so no issues there. If I can get coffee in the morning can hold off on getting a meal until later. I'll bring snacks. Interestingly, it's proving to be difficult finding a train with rooms available, they must book up way in advance. For all of our complaints about Amtrak food, those trains are selling out. I can only surmise, not much incentive to improve anything when they continue to sell out.


Hi Michigan Mom! Just booked the CONO for February both to and from Chicago... was able to get a mid bucket rate on a room; and always order the kosher meals which seem to offer a little more than the flex; are average quality but they do fill me up; and like you I enjoy bringing my own snacks and drinks along.

BTW the CONO does serve dinner immediately upon departure from CHI so you do have something if you do decide on a late eve supper.

Looks like you are planning a scenic and enjoyable trip to view those fall colors!


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## tricia

Michigan Mom said:


> ... Interestingly, it's proving to be difficult finding a train with rooms available, they must book up way in advance. For all of our complaints about Amtrak food, those trains are selling out. I can only surmise, not much incentive to improve anything when they continue to sell out.



Depending on the route you're looking at, some of those "sold out" trains might have had one or more of their usual sleeping cars removed. See other thread currently buzzing with accounts of this.


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## 20th Century Rider

tricia said:


> Depending on the route you're looking at, some of those "sold out" trains might have had one or more of their usual sleeping cars removed. See other thread currently buzzing with accounts of this.


It is indeed very hard to find rooms... was able to organize some extensive trips... but couldn't find anything until just after Thanksgiving... and in the mid bucket range. 1st trip is in late Nov to mid Dec... EUG to NYP. A second trip is planned for late January... trans con, and another from EUG to NOL.

Each itinerary took several hours of calling res until I got a good agent... and as most know... its best to call back if the agent doesn't seem to be able to handle a complex itinerary... or who constantly has to check with a supervisor.

It's doable with patience patience patience... and a lot of flexibility.


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## river

Well, I wrote and sent my refund request email to Amtrak this afternoon. I explained that we did not receive the 20 flex meals we were entitled to (5 passengers x 4 missed meals =20 meals.) which I understand are valued at $25 each--because Amtrak staff did not load the meals onto the trains. Perhaps there were none to load, but that's not acceptable. These trains were sold out. 
I also mentioned the bedroom toilet issue (but I suspect they've heard a lot about plumbing issues and may unfortunately be hardened over that). 
We'll see what response I get. I will report back when I hear back--which may be awhile.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

river said:


> Well, I wrote and sent my refund request email to Amtrak this afternoon. I explained that we did not receive the 20 flex meals we were entitled to (5 passengers x 4 missed meals =20 meals.) which I understand are valued at $25 each--because Amtrak staff did not load the meals onto the trains. Perhaps there were none to load, but that's not acceptable. These trains were sold out.
> I also mentioned the bedroom toilet issue (but I suspect they've heard a lot about plumbing issues and may unfortunately be hardened over that).
> We'll see what response I get. I will report back when I hear back--which may be awhile.


Do call and ask to be switched to a customer service agent; unfortunately getting through may take a grrrrrrreat deal of time and patience. But once you actually get through and explain all, you may get a full refund. Not only were you not given what you paid for, but you suffered duress which hurt your journey/vacation. I think many AU'ers would agree and estimate you will get a full refund... and if not that, travel credit vouchers that could be used by each individual member of your travel party... which would far exceed the 5 pax x four meals = 20 meals, or $500.

When you call you'll get more compensation if you show empathy for these customer service agents who deal with angry passengers every day. Please let us know how you do!


----------



## trimetbusfan

river said:


> Well, I wrote and sent my refund request email to Amtrak this afternoon. I explained that we did not receive the 20 flex meals we were entitled to (5 passengers x 4 missed meals =20 meals.) which I understand are valued at $25 each--because Amtrak staff did not load the meals onto the trains. Perhaps there were none to load, but that's not acceptable. These trains were sold out.
> I also mentioned the bedroom toilet issue (but I suspect they've heard a lot about plumbing issues and may unfortunately be hardened over that).
> We'll see what response I get. I will report back when I hear back--which may be awhile.


Be aware it might take quite a while (weeks, if not longer) to get a response by email. When you call, you will be usually be given compensation once your connected and explain the situation. Of course, the downside to that is not being able to explain the full situation of your trip.


----------



## river

The thing is, the trip was fine with the exception of the food and the bedroom toilet malfunction. The rooms otherwise were fine and the attendants were all great. I just want to be fairly compensated for what we weren't provided. I have traveled on a lot of Amtrak long distance trains and I know exactly what good and expected service is and that's what I consistently received on them. This CONO trip really missed the mark.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

river said:


> The thing is, the trip was fine with the exception of the food and the bedroom toilet malfunction. The rooms otherwise were fine and the attendants were all great. I just want to be fairly compensated for what we weren't provided. I have traveled on a lot of Amtrak long distance trains and I know exactly what good and expected service is and that's what I consistently received on them. This CONO trip really missed the mark.


Yes... but frankly I would be quite miffed if there was no food boarded for an overnight trip of that doesn't arrive til 3pm the next day. Did they at least allow you food from the cafe car??? That would certainly be a big factor!


----------



## river

Yes they gave us a submarine, chip, and cookie lunch box from a deli in Jackson MS -twice. SB is was for lunch and NB is was for dinner. They also said we could have a breakfast sandwich/muffin from the cafe both mornings.
But I didn't want that--I wanted the Sleeper car menu and food that I choose. I wanted a glass of wine. (Attendant said there wasn't any.) It wasn't what we paid for. And I paid a LOT--for our sleeper accomodations.
And I do know flex dining is mediocre at best. We had such a great experience on the SW Chief with their traditional dining. Getting subs from a deli isn't my definition of the dining experience we paid for--even though it was flex dining.


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## 20th Century Rider

river said:


> Yes they gave us a submarine, chip, and cookie lunch box from a deli in Jackson MS -twice. SB is was for lunch and NB is was for dinner. They also said we could have a breakfast sandwich/muffin from the cafe both mornings.
> But I didn't want that--I wanted the Sleeper car menu and food that I choose. I wanted a glass of wine. (Attendant said there wasn't any.) It's wasn't what we paid for. We paid for flex dining.


They should have given you wine which they usually have at the cafe car. No doubt you've been wronged; when the Attendant said there wasn't any wine, they may have not considered the cafe?

Anyway you were wronged and should anticipate the compensation will be far greater than the lack of meal service. Again, let us know how you do with customer service... and know two things:

1] contact by phone brings quicker resolution

2] empathy for their having to deal with so many upset customers who have had Amtrak mishaps and your kindness towards them will yield more compensation. Take my word for it... they know how you feel!


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## zephyr17

river said:


> The thing is, the trip was fine with the exception of the food and the bedroom _toilet malfunction_. (Italics added)


"Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

You are a more forgiving person than I am.


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## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> "Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
> 
> You are a more forgiving person than I am.


Wow... you said that really well... and I so do agree with you!

BTW where in WA State are you from; that is if u care to share? 
I'm just to the south on the OR coast. Kind-a fun to locate other AU'ers in the area


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## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> They should have given you wine which they usually have at the cafe car. No doubt you've been wronged; when the Attendant said there wasn't any wine, they may have not considered the cafe?


My observations would indicate that cafe inventory is separate and cannot be shared. When I was recently on the Pacific Surfliner in business class they were “out” of bottled water but I could purchase it in the cafe. Which I did.


----------



## Bob Dylan

river said:


> I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).
> 
> We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.
> 
> On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.
> 
> Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
> Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
> For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.
> 
> That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.
> 
> I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?


Unfortunately this is becoming common place on Amtrak LD Trains,there's no excuse for this Sorry situation. 

You're due Big refund since you didn't get what you paid for!? ( aka Bait and Switch)

Amtrak has CCCs and Diners, SIghtseer Lounges and Sleepers/Transdorms sitting in Yards, they need to be used as intended, not as Axle Count Cars and Yard Queens!


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Unfortunately this is becoming common place on Amtrak LD Trains,there's no excuse for this Sorry situation.
> 
> You're due Big refund since you didn't get what you paid for!? ( aka Bait and Switch)
> 
> Amtrak has CCCs and Diners, SIghtseer Lounges and Sleepers/Transdorms sitting in Yards, they need to be used as intended, not as Axle Count Cars and Yard Queens!


But why is this so common on the CONO more so other LD's?


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## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> But why is this so common on the CONO more so other LD's?


I've seen several posts and pics from other LD Trains lately, with KFC,Pizza, and Subs brought aboard. The Builder and Texas Eaglete especially!

Food not being loaded by Chicago's Crack Ctews seems to be the most common factor!


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## river

Absolutely this WAS a bait and switch scenario on the CONO. I will use that language when I communicate with Amtrak about my trip. Thank you.


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## Devil's Advocate

Pick whatever language you prefer but when I worked in a public facing position the term "bait and switch" had a serious connotation that shut down most communication and was interpreted as a threat to sue. I'm not sure how Amtrak staff would respond but they might stop talking to you at that point.


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## zephyr17

Devil's Advocate said:


> Pick whatever language you prefer but when I worked in a public facing position the term "bait and switch" had a serious connotation that shut down most communication and was interpreted as a threat to sue. I'm not sure how Amtrak staff would respond but they might stop talking to you at that point.


Yeah, I'd save that, especially for anything written. Saying "It felt like..." in a phone conversation is probably okay because there's more context.


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## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> But why is this so common on the CONO more so other LD's?


My suspicion is that Amtrak, faced with shortages, is sacrificing service on some of the long-distance trains (Capitol Limited, CONO, Texas Eagle) in order to ensure sufficient equipment staff for the more favored trains (CZ, SWC, Sunset, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder), although even those trains have had their challenges, too.


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## Michigan Mom

Are those subs from the deli in Jackson decent? I'm thinking a nice turkey or vegetable sub, with a packaged cookie (that can be stockpiled for later) just might be a far better meal than any of the Flex options.


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## river

I've never had a flex meal so can't compare. The subs were from McAlister's. We had two sub choices--turkey and ham with cheese and maybe a couple veggies--didn't really check carefully. They were ok--didn't like that on the SB trip the turkey meat was room temperature when I ate it. I wondered how long the sandwiches were out of refrigeration. The NB trip the turkey meat was colder, so felt more comfortable eating that. I did not get sick from them, so they were safe to eat. The chips were not to my liking--there were various kinds of spicier chips. I and my companions got jalapeno potato chips. Didn't like and didn't eat them. The cookie was choc chip and it was ok.
Subs are not offered on the Flex dining menu. I wanted to choose off the dining menu. Those choices were more to my liking.


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## river

Well I find this interesting: I went to the Amtrak page where it explains Flexible Dining and it appears the CONO menu was removed. Other train menus remain listed. The CONO menu was listed just before we left for our trip because I read it. 
Ideas on why it was removed from the Amtrak page?

Follow up-- just checked the Amtrak CONO page and the flexible dining menu is still posted there.


----------



## Michigan Mom

river said:


> I've never had a flex meal so can't compare. The subs were from McAlister's. We had two sub choices--turkey and ham with cheese and maybe a couple veggies--didn't really check carefully. They were ok--didn't like that on the SB trip the turkey meat was room temperature when I ate it. I wondered how long the sandwiches were out of refrigeration. The NB trip the turkey meat was colder, so felt more comfortable eating that. I did not get sick from them, so they were safe to eat. The chips were not to my liking--there were various kinds of spicier chips. I and my companions got jalapeno potato chips. Didn't like and didn't eat them. The cookie was choc chip and it was ok.
> Subs are not offered on the Flex dining menu. I wanted to choose off the dining menu. Those choices were more to my liking.


Thanks for the info. Looking to ride this train in the fall (although not finding much availability). Personally I'd rather get that sub than any of the Flex options. Keep in mind, too, that the choices on the Flex menu might not be available even if they did board the meals - that happens often. Even if you were able to choose and got your preferred option, can I just say that you will get a weeks worth of sodium and additives in the flex meal which will make it tasty but might throw you out of whack for the next day or two. Well, 20 years ago it wouldn't have bothered me, a bit different today. It's microwaved processed food, and if they are getting rid of the dinner option on the CONO out of Chicago, might be for the best as there are plenty of places to get better food all around the area.


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## river

Michigan Mom--Right--probably a lot of sodium and other preservatives for sure. I admit I am spoiled with traditional dining on the long distance trains to California. Maybe you can consider heading out that way for your next trip! Ha. Except that I'm reading of sleeper accomodations to California being cancelled at the last minute. Not good!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Michigan Mom said:


> Thanks for the info. Looking to ride this train in the fall (although not finding much availability). Personally I'd rather get that sub than any of the Flex options. Keep in mind, too, that the choices on the Flex menu might not be available even if they did board the meals - that happens often. Even if you were able to choose and got your preferred option, can I just say that you will get a weeks worth of sodium and additives in the flex meal which will make it tasty but might throw you out of whack for the next day or two. Well, 20 years ago it wouldn't have bothered me, a bit different today. It's microwaved processed food, and if they are getting rid of the dinner option on the CONO out of Chicago, might be for the best as there are plenty of places to get better food all around the area.


The kosher meal option is my personal choice; the entre is kind-a bland but additional role, pastry, and salad is a little better than flex. Sorry folks... I'm just burned out on flex... after so many of them... to me they're tasteless and monotonous.

All these meals have generous quantities of sodium, fat, sugar, and very little taste. Meh


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Michigan Mom said:


> Thanks for the info. Looking to ride this train in the fall (although not finding much availability). Personally I'd rather get that sub than any of the Flex options. Keep in mind, too, that the choices on the Flex menu might not be available even if they did board the meals - that happens often. Even if you were able to choose and got your preferred option, can I just say that you will get a weeks worth of sodium and additives in the flex meal which will make it tasty but might throw you out of whack for the next day or two. Well, 20 years ago it wouldn't have bothered me, a bit different today. It's microwaved processed food, and if they are getting rid of the dinner option on the CONO out of Chicago, might be for the best as there are plenty of places to get better food all around the area.


Just wondering: If the hubby and I were to take the CONO southbound, we'd probably board it in Kankakee (1st stop S of Chicago?). If dinner were being served immediately after departure from Chicago, would passengers boarding at Kankakee still be able to eat dinner, or should they plan to eat before boarding?


----------



## river

I've read you need to board by 8:30 pm to get dinner. I could be wrong, but from what I've read, those passengers who board the CONO in Chicago only do get dinner since boarding is earlier than that.

Well-nix that! The timeable for the CONO has changed at least temporarily due to track work starting this week, so departure times for the next couple months will vary.
Check out the Amtrak CONO page for details.


----------



## MARC Rider

river said:


> I've never had a flex meal so can't compare. The subs were from McAlister's. We had two sub choices--turkey and ham with cheese and maybe a couple veggies--didn't really check carefully. They were ok--didn't like that on the SB trip the turkey meat was room temperature when I ate it. I wondered how long the sandwiches were out of refrigeration. The NB trip the turkey meat was colder, so felt more comfortable eating that. I did not get sick from them, so they were safe to eat. The chips were not to my liking--there were various kinds of spicier chips. I and my companions got jalapeno potato chips. Didn't like and didn't eat them. The cookie was choc chip and it was ok.
> Subs are not offered on the Flex dining menu. I wanted to choose off the dining menu. Those choices were more to my liking.


I wouldn't worry about processed deli meat being out of refrigeration for a few hours, as they are so loaded with preservatives that the pathogenic bacteria don't have a chance.  This assumes that there's no mayonnaise on the sandwich, but a true cheapo deli would provide the mayo in a sealed squeeze packet, anyway, to be added by the customer.

When we went camping if we made a pot of stew and couldn't eat it all, we just tied the pot up in a tree (to keep the critters away from it), and would eat it in the morning for breakfast. Hunters often hand up freshly killed meat without refrigeration to age and tenderize it. Refrigeration is sometimes overrated as a health measure.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Just wondering: If the hubby and I were to take the CONO southbound, we'd probably board it in Kankakee (1st stop S of Chicago?). If dinner were being served immediately after departure from Chicago, would passengers boarding at Kankakee still be able to eat dinner, or should they plan to eat before boarding?


According to the Amtrak web page you must board by 8:30pm and since you will be boarding at 9:23pm most likely not; however it doesn't hurt to ask when you board... to see just how 'flexible' flex dining is!


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

20th Century Rider said:


> According to the Amtrak web page you must board by 8:30pm and since you will be boarding at 9:23pm most likely not; however it doesn't hurt to ask when you board... to see just how 'flexible' flex dining is!
> 
> View attachment 29239
> 
> 
> View attachment 29240


Thanks for finding the timetable for that route! The hubby is an "early-to-bed/early-to-rise" type, so I suspect he'd be strongly in favor of eating supper in Kankakee before the CONO arrives, and going straight to bed in our bedroom or roomette once we'd boarded. At least we already know plenty of restaurants in Kankakee that we enjoy eating at!


----------



## river

We boarded in Homewood-one stop before Kankakee--and no mention of dinner to us. (Although I didn't even ask. Had dinner at Aurelios down the street instead--my absolute favorite pizza of all time--and I miss it living in MI.)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Thanks for finding the timetable for that route! The hubby is an "early-to-bed/early-to-rise" type, so I suspect he'd be strongly in favor of eating supper in Kankakee before the CONO arrives, and going straight to bed in our bedroom or roomette once we'd boarded. At least we already know plenty of restaurants in Kankakee that we enjoy eating at!


From personal experience with overnight accommodations I have found it is best to eat earlier to allow for digesting and a better sleep. The next morning comes with beautiful scenery as you get closer to NOL. Have a great trip!


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

river said:


> We boarded in Homewood-one stop before Kankakee--and no mention of dinner to us. (Although I didn't even ask. Had dinner at Aurelios down the street instead--my absolute favorite pizza of all time--and I miss it living in MI.)


There's a Monical's Pizza not too far from the train station in Kankakee, as well as a Wendy's for a quick meal. (Essential when we'd make a round trip by car to daughter's college W of Galesburg, then have to hustle to get the son on the Saluki back down to law school at SIU-Carbondale!) Or if we come to Kankakee a few hours early, there's plenty of slightly farther-away restaurants (and places to pick up train snacks for the carry-ons).


----------



## chrsjrcj

New cafe car menus. Looks like the Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwiches are being replaced.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Lots of cheese and no milk.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Also, looks like no more pizza and bagels.


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## 20th Century Rider

Looks like a big step up for taste and variety. I personally like the Asian and Greek salad offerings. It would be nice to get some pics of these. BTW if the policy hasn't changed... hot water is complimentary; so if you bring your own cup, tea / coffee sachet, and Asian noodle cup they will provide the hot water.

Nice to see this new menu...nice improvement!


----------



## jebr

AmtrakBlue said:


> Lots of cheese and no milk.


There's milk on the national café menu. Guess the corridor is too fancy for milk.


----------



## lordsigma

Some will complain about some extra fresh selections on the corridor trains but one must also keep in mind some of those items have a same day shelf life.


----------



## zephyr17

Ah, different stuff to run out of.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good to see the Hebrew National Hotdog on the Menu!

I often used to eat them for Lunch ( in the Diner) on LD Trains when there was enough since they were on the Kids Menu.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Looks like the CONO train no longer has a proper Flex dining menu, looks like the menu now includes only cafe food for Breakfast and Lunch. 



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf


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## Bob Dylan

trimetbusfan said:


> Looks like the CONO train no longer has a proper Flex dining menu, looks like the menu now includes only cafe food for Breakfast and Lunch.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf


This is the Model that the Cardinal uses, with Dinner being Heat and Eat Flex type Tripe!

Another once Good LD Train is downgraded to Steerage Class Service!


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## 20th Century Rider

trimetbusfan said:


> Looks like the CONO train no longer has a proper Flex dining menu, looks like the menu now includes only cafe food for Breakfast and Lunch.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf


Here is what appears to be a new menu... looks like the flex type of meals for dinner including curry pot roast and chicken lupita which I haven't seen before. Lunch appears to be from the cafe but not entirely sure; although the greek salad looks pretty good. Breakfast seems to be downgraded to the original minimal flex offerings. It doesn't appear that 'food facts' has been updated...


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Here is what appears to be a new menu... looks like the flex type of meals for dinner including curry pot roast and chicken lupita which I haven't seen before. Lunch appears to be from the cafe but not entirely sure; although the greek salad looks pretty good. Breakfast seems to be downgraded to the original minimal flex offerings. It doesn't appear that 'food facts' has been updated...
> 
> View attachment 29296


What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> This is the Model that the Cardinal uses, with Dinner being Heat and Eat!
> 
> Another once Good LD Train is downgraded to Steerage Class Service!


Yes... score down once again... cafe offerings for breakfast and lunch and flex for dinner only... as if flex were any good. On the plus side, those sandwiches look like a bump up in quality and if the greek salad is as good as those served in Moynahan Metropolitan Lounge that would be a saving grace of sorts. 

So it looks like they improved the Cafe offerings to merge with the sleeper service meals?

Who knows.


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?


Oh... that's easy... lots-a carbs, lots-a sodium, and lots-a drizzling fat.


----------



## dbkbye

Bob Dylan said:


> What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?


Like a mini bacon-egg-and-cheese sandwich without a bun, for people with a low-carb diet


----------



## joelkfla

Bob Dylan said:


> What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?











Artisan Kitchens Bacon and Three Cheese Egg Bites, 2.3 Ounce -- 140 per case


The Artisan Kitchens Bacon and Three Cheese Egg Bites make a good breakfast or snack that can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike. It is made with farm-fresh egg whites, real butter, real bacon bits, and cottage, Monterey Jack, and Gouda cheeses. The bulk case containing 140 Artisan Kitchens...




www.foodservicedirect.com









KETO Omelet Cups - High Protein Omelet Cups | Artisan Kitchens


Discover what delicious tastes like with KETO omelet cups by Artisan Kitchens. Our protein-packed KETO omelet cups keep healthy, busy families going all day long.




www.chooseartisan.com




Looks something like a quiche without the crust.


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## trimetbusfan

Also appears the Auto Train cafe car now has select Flex Dining entrees for sale… $16 each . At least the sleeper passengers still get the traditional dining on that route. 



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-0822.pdf


----------



## Bob Dylan

trimetbusfan said:


> Also appears the Auto Train cafe car now has select Flex Dining entrees for sale… $16 each . At least the sleeper passengers still get the traditional dining on that route.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-0822.pdf


Such a deal! Bet the LSA on the AT will be worked to death hearing up all the Flex Meals! NOT!!!


----------



## lordsigma

trimetbusfan said:


> Also appears the Auto Train cafe car now has select Flex Dining entrees for sale… $16 each . At least the sleeper passengers still get the traditional dining on that route.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-0822.pdf


They’ve actually had that for a few iterations of the menu.


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## joelkfla

I hope this isn't what they were talking about when they said they were planning some improvement to meals on eastern trains.


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## 20th Century Rider

dbkbye said:


> Like a mini bacon-egg-and-cheese sandwich without a bun, for people with a low-carb diet


If you really like 'em you can order in bulk and enjoy them every day... they're only a little over a buck each


----------



## 20th Century Rider

trimetbusfan said:


> Also appears the Auto Train cafe car now has select Flex Dining entrees for sale… $16 each . At least the sleeper passengers still get the traditional dining on that route.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Auto-Train-Cafe-Menu-Coach-0822.pdf


Sleeper car pax are paying up to $500 on or more to get a few $16 meals?


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## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Sleeper car pax are paying up to $500 on or more to get a few $16 meals?


That would be on the Eaglet, CONO, LSL, CL, Cardinal, and the Silvers...


----------



## trimetbusfan

20th Century Rider said:


> That would be on the Eaglet, CONO, LSL, CL, Cardinal, and the Silvers...





20th Century Rider said:


> Sleeper car pax are paying up to $500 on or more to get a few $16 meals?


That doesn’t include your beverage, salad, bread roll (if they have one), and desert (if they have one)


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## MccfamschoolMom

20th Century Rider said:


> If you really like 'em you can order in bulk and enjoy them every day... they're only a little over a buck each
> View attachment 29297


Or you can buy silicone egg bite molds (like mini-muffin pans) which will fit in an air fryer or microwave, and make them yourself.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

trimetbusfan said:


> That doesn’t include your beverage, salad, bread roll (if they have one), and desert (if they have one)


Carrot shavings removed from the included flex salad... now only a few leaves of lettuce and a cherry tomato. Although the desserts haven't been too bad. 

The meal isn't that filling... but for sure makes u appreciate getting off and getting some real food at your destination.

More optimistically, I do remember getting a nice complete chef salad for the LSL on the BOS to ALB sector... maybe they will now allow substitutions from the new cafe menu... ???


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## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?


They serve these at Starbucks - they aren’t bad for a drive-through or quick bite when you’re in a hurry and getting a coffee but they aren’t a “breakfast entree” that you would ever expect to be served as a proper meal. 

They would be a great addition to the cafe menu…. A terrible dining car choice though.


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## joelkfla

Bob Dylan said:


> What in the World is " Bacon and Cheese Egg Bites"?





joelkfla said:


> Looks something like a quiche without the crust.


Further investigation reveals that there is no heavy cream in them, which is a major ingredient of quiche. So --- more eggy than quichey.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Or you can buy silicone egg bite molds (like mini-muffin pans) which will fit in an air fryer or microwave, and make them yourself.


And don't forget those egg bite hacks!


----------



## Billvasili

On the Capitol Ltd and the Auto train what are the menus for passengers traveling this month?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Of course nothing can replace a hard boiled egg!


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

20th Century Rider said:


> Of course nothing can replace a hard boiled egg!


I've purchased sealed 2-packs of hard-boiled eggs at the local Casey's; they make a quick, light lunch/brunch, require no prep time (although salt and pepper are nice with them), and could easily be stored in a fridge in the Cafe car.


----------



## slasher-fun

Capitol Limited: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...ts/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf
Auto Train: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...outes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-0822.pdf


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## TheCrescent

The City of New Orleans breakfast and lunch menus are not appropriate for that price point: $527 for a one-way trip (for a trip on September 15). American Airlines can do the same trip in first class for as low as $401 and at least the drinks selection is better, and unlimited.


----------



## WWW

Do I get just a dinner or a dinner and breakfast ?
I am on the Cardinal #50 departing Windy at 5:55pm and arriving Huntington WV 7:00am -
I am and my partner are in Roomettes - for sure a dinner is in order and there would be
time for a breakfast if the diner is open around 6am -
Back to my question is a breakfast included ?


----------



## joelkfla

There's a new Flex menu up, dated 8/22. The only change I can find is at breakfast, where Railroad French Toast has been replaced by Buttermilk Pancakes. Now, IMO, frozen microwaved pancakes can be fairly decent, if they're properly stored & prepared, but we'll see whether Amtrak is up to the task.


----------



## OBS

WWW said:


> Do I get just a dinner or a dinner and breakfast ?
> I am on the Cardinal #50 departing Windy at 5:55pm and arriving Huntington WV 7:00am -
> I am and my partner are in Roomettes - for sure a dinner is in order and there would be
> time for a breakfast if the diner is open around 6am -
> Back to my question is a breakfast included ?


I doubt Breakfast will start before 630, but possibly.


----------



## Steve4031

If the train is running late you will have time for breakfast. I suggest letting your SCA know that you are definitely interested in breakfast. You should at least get cereal and a muffin. Once you get off in Huntington you could go to a restaurant and get a decent breakfast.


----------



## j_ratza

Now that Amtrak has Coca Cola as a supplier. Does anyone know if they serve Coke Zero in the dining or cafe cars?


----------



## dwebarts

j_ratza said:


> Now that Amtrak has Coca Cola as a supplier. Does anyone know if they serve Coke Zero in the dining or cafe cars?


I remember picking one up in a cafe car on the NER recently. I prefer Diet Pepsi in general, but Coke Zero works. According to my taste buds, Diet Coke is just vile.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

dwebarts said:


> I remember picking one up in a cafe car on the NER recently. I prefer Diet Pepsi in general, but Coke Zero works. According to my taste buds, Diet Coke is just vile.


I usually can't taste the difference between diet colas myself. Diet cola of any variety has been expensive at the local supermarket lately, so I've been trying these weird fruity flavors of diet Mountain Dew. (Couldn't stand the taste of regular Mountain Dew, but the new fruity varieties are surprisingly OK. I don't expect to see them in either the dining car or cafe car on Amtrak, though.)


----------



## marcoloco

OBS said:


> I doubt Breakfast will start before 630, but possibly.


If the train is running late, you should have plenty of time for breakfast, but if the train is on time, I doubt it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I don't drink much soda as an adult but I used to love _Sanpellegrino Pompelmo_ before they changed the recipe. I also love the nostalgia of the commissary version of Minute Maid Cran-Apple Cocktail (goes great with club soda and vodka). If I'm bringing my own sodas I might pack Squirt, 7-Up, or global Coke.*

* Often called "Mexican Coke" despite the fact that nearly every other country still uses actual sugar and that the American versions of Coke and Coke Zero are banned in several countries.


----------



## UserNameRequired

I remember Diet Coke but not Coke Zero?, LSL. Full ethyl Coke and Sprite available too.


----------



## Northwestern

I remember the "old coke", in glass bottles, available at service stations. It was in a red, refrigerated bin and ice cold. Really good. And with real sugar. Maybe not healthy but great on a really hot summer day. The station had a rack set up to accept empty bottles for recycling.

I wonder if Amtrak could have refrigerator cars for food storage. A passenger could select meals when booking, beforehand, by computer, smart phone, at the station, etc. All 3 meals while aboard. Then load the meals in the refrigerator car early each morning at major stops. At meal time, the kitchen staff could use a convection oven (not microwave) for fast thawing. It would eliminate food waste and the kitchen staff could mainly be used to distribute the food to passengers. Maybe a "pick up" window could be used.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep your comments on the topic of Amtrak Dining 

Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## Mailliw

river said:


> Yes they gave us a submarine, chip, and cookie lunch box from a deli in Jackson MS -twice. SB is was for lunch and NB is was for dinner. They also said we could have a breakfast sandwich/muffin from the cafe both mornings.
> But I didn't want that--I wanted the Sleeper car menu and food that I choose. I wanted a glass of wine. (Attendant said there wasn't any.) It wasn't what we paid for. And I paid a LOT--for our sleeper accomodations.
> And I do know flex dining is mediocre at best. We had such a great experience on the SW Chief with their traditional dining. Getting subs from a deli isn't my definition of the dining experience we paid for--even though it was flex dining.


I've had flex meals and I'd a sub & chips over them anyday.


----------



## toddinde

j_ratza said:


> Now that Amtrak has Coca Cola as a supplier. Does anyone know if they serve Coke Zero in the dining or cafe cars?


I don’t remember Amtrak never not having Coke. Good question about Coke Zero. I’ve definitely had Diet Coke.


----------



## PVD

Coke Zero is listed on the National Cafe Car Menu and the NER on the Amtrak website, I didn't look at the others.


----------



## TaseMeBro

j_ratza said:


> Now that Amtrak has Coca Cola as a supplier. Does anyone know if they serve Coke Zero in the dining or cafe cars?


I bought two cans of Coke Zero in the cafe of the CZ a few days ago, and they seemed to be stocked with that, Diet Coke, and Classic Coke.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Northwestern said:


> I remember the "old coke", in glass bottles, available at service stations. It was in a red, refrigerated bin and ice cold. Really good. And with real sugar. Maybe not healthy but great on a really hot summer day. The station had a rack set up to accept empty bottles for recycling.
> 
> I wonder if Amtrak could have refrigerator cars for food storage. A passenger could select meals when booking, beforehand, by computer, smart phone, at the station, etc. All 3 meals while aboard. Then load the meals in the refrigerator car early each morning at major stops. At meal time, the kitchen staff could use a convection oven (not microwave) for fast thawing. It would eliminate food waste and the kitchen staff could mainly be used to distribute the food to passengers. Maybe a "pick up" window could be used.


It doesn't even need to be an entire car. As much empty space as there is in the bags, a bank of refrigerators can be kept in there.


----------



## TheCrescent

On the train that I’m on- and for which I paid over $500 for a roomette for an approximately 600-mile trip:

The Flexible Dining menus in the room (printed on 8 1/2”x11” copier paper) were old, and none of the lunch/dinner entrees that I had wanted were available. The menu on the Amtrak website is also old and outdated.

The items that I ordered will be just as good, but…

How many things wrong are there with that situation?


----------



## Sidney

TheCrescent said:


> On the train that I’m on- and for which I paid over $500 for a roomette for an approximately 600-mile trip:
> 
> The Flexible Dining menus in the room (printed on 8 1/2”x11” copier paper) were old, and none of the lunch/dinner entrees that I had wanted were available. The menu on the Amtrak website is also old and outdated.
> 
> The items that I ordered will be just as good, but…
> 
> How many things wrong are there with that situation?


Did you board near the end of the train's run? Still,paying that kind of money and you cannot even get what you wanted...and to top it off it's flex food!


----------



## TheCrescent

Sidney said:


> Did you board near the end of the train's run? Still,paying that kind of money and you cannot even get what you wanted...and to top it off it's flex food!


I boarded at the originating station.

Since Amtrak just prints menus from an office printer, on regular white office paper, it can’t just print the menu and have the current menu in its sleeping car rooms? It still has old menus in its rooms?

At least use resume paper from Staples, Amtrak; it’s thicker and is classier-looking than using regular office copier paper. And the thick resume paper can be printed from an office printer, too.


----------



## trimetbusfan

TheCrescent said:


> I boarded at the originating station.
> 
> Since Amtrak just prints menus from an office printer, on regular white office paper, it can’t just print the menu and have the current menu in its sleeping car rooms? It still has old menus in its rooms?
> 
> At least use resume paper from Staples, Amtrak; it’s thicker and is classier-looking than using regular office copier paper. And the thick resume paper can be printed from an office printer, too.


The western long distance trains with traditional dining use thick cardstock for the menus. They know how to do it right.


----------



## Rasputin

I remember traveling on the westbound Lake Shore shortly after the heritage diners were removed and replaced by a diner-lite car. When I went to the dining car for dinner out of Albany I was given a hand-printed menu on a piece of paper. It was not an impressive-looking menu. 

However, the food was delicious so I had no complaints. I had been concerned that the diner-lite car meant a serious downgrading of meal service on the Lake Shore. Was I ever wrong (especially when compared to today).


----------



## TheCrescent

Sorry to be griping so much today but Flexible Dining today was not good:

1. The side salad was a small bowl of lettuce. There was one cherry tomato in it. Nothing else.

2. The vegetarian enchiladas were fine, on par with Amy’s frozen ones (Whole Foods, Target, etc. sell them).

3. The really good cheesecake thing was gone, back to a room temperature brownie in sealed wrap.


----------



## PaTrainFan

trimetbusfan said:


> The western long distance trains with traditional dining use thick cardstock for the menus. They know how to do it right.


 Doing it right was when they had first class professionally printed menus with nicely designed color cover art.


----------



## Sidney

TheCrescent said:


> Sorry to be griping so much today but Flexible Dining today was not good:
> 
> 1. The side salad was a small bowl of lettuce. There was one cherry tomato in it. Nothing else.
> 
> 2. The vegetarian enchiladas were fine, on par with Amy’s frozen ones (Whole Foods, Target, etc. sell them).
> 
> 3. The really good cheesecake thing was gone, back to a room temperature brownie in sealed wrap.


Flexible "dining" today? That's every day.


----------



## SteveSFL

On the California Zephyr, is the dining car restocked in Oakland for the return trip to Chicago? Or do they leave Chicago with (ostensibly) enough food for the round trip?


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## jis

It is restocked in Oakland.


----------



## TheCrescent

And to add:

The Amtrak website says that breakfast is available starting at 6:30am for sleeping car passengers.

My train was delayed by 80 minutes so I arrived at 6:50am.

Breakfast was not an option. I was told that there wasn’t time.


----------



## fdaley

TheCrescent said:


> On the train that I’m on- and for which I paid over $500 for a roomette for an approximately 600-mile trip:
> 
> The Flexible Dining menus in the room (printed on 8 1/2”x11” copier paper) were old, and none of the lunch/dinner entrees that I had wanted were available. The menu on the Amtrak website is also old and outdated.
> 
> The items that I ordered will be just as good, but…
> 
> How many things wrong are there with that situation?


Yeah, we were given photocopied menus when we booked a room on the Lake Shore from Albany to Boston last fall. The print quality was muddy, which made it hard to read, and of course, they no longer offered some of the items listed and were out of others. Really, even when the food is edible, everything about the presentation is laughably bad.

To me, every flex meal is like a memo from Amtrak management that says: "Congress told us we have to run this train, but we don't see any future in it, so let's not waste any more money on you than we have to. We're supposed to give you meals on trips that might last 20 or 30 hours, so here it is. We figure you'll take whatever we give you, because for some reason you like to ride trains, even though, on a trip of this length, any normal person would fly. If you decide not to ride this train again, no big deal, some other train buff will probably pay $500 or even $1,000 for a room. And if they don't, at least we can go back and tell Congress what a losing proposition this train is."


----------



## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> Yeah, we were given photocopied menus when we booked a room on the Lake Shore from Albany to Boston last fall. The print quality was muddy, and the page was kind of dog-eared, as though they'd been giving out the same copies for awhile. Really, even when the food is edible, everything about the presentation is laughably bad.
> 
> To me, every flex meal is like a memo from Amtrak management that says: "Congress told us we have to run this train, but we don't see any future in it, so let's not waste any more money on you than we have to. We're supposed to give you meals on trips that might last 20 or 30 hours, so here it is. We figure you'll take whatever we give you, because for some reason you like to ride trains, even though, on a trip of this length, any normal person would fly. If you decide not to ride this train again, no big deal, some other train buff will probably pay $500 or even $1,000 for a room. And if they don't, at least we can go back and tell Congress what a losing proposition this train is."



I don’t totally agree with this. While I certainly agree that flexible dining is a downgrade from traditional dining, I think the ridership and market on some of the eastern trains is a bit different than out west such that I don’t think flexible dining is killing these trains. While good meals is certainly a good touch for what we’re paying for sleepers and I certainly think they could do better (and hope they do with the end of the mica mandate) I would also concede that the dining car experience is not as crucial a part of these routes as it is out west and I don’t think whatever they plan on doing necessarily has to completely match what they’re doing out west. 

While obviously all routes have a variety of riders - I think the ridership in general in the east skews more towards traveling to get there with the trains a means to get there - while on the western routes I think there’s a lot bigger proportion of riders where the train is a big part of the reason for the trip compared to the east. As such the dining car experience as an iconic part of traditional train travel is a much more important part of those scenic iconic routes. Of course there are people in both instances on all the routes (obviously the lake shore and Capitol get some ridership from connections and such) - but overall I think the ratio of riders and purpose of trip does vary between the routes. And as such I think the absence of dining car service would be much more damaging to the trains that currently have it than it is to those in the east. Obviously the Eagle’s that unlucky route they don’t seem to know what to do with but that’s probably a product of lighter ridership.


----------



## tricia

lordsigma said:


> I don’t totally agree with this. While I certainly agree that flexible dining is a downgrade from traditional dining, I think the ridership and market on some of the eastern trains is a bit different than out west such that I don’t think flexible dining is killing these trains. While good meals is certainly a good touch for what we’re paying for sleepers and I certainly think they could do better (and hope they do with the end of the mica mandate) I would also concede that the dining car experience is not as crucial a part of these routes as it is out west and I don’t think whatever they plan on doing necessarily has to completely match what they’re doing out west.
> 
> While obviously all routes have a variety of riders - I think the ridership in general in the east skews more towards traveling to get there with the trains a means to get there - while on the western routes I think there’s a lot bigger proportion of riders where the train is a big part of the reason for the trip compared to the east. As such the dining car experience as an iconic part of traditional train travel is a much more important part of those scenic iconic routes. Of course there are people in both instances on all the routes (obviously the lake shore and Capitol get some ridership from connections and such) - but overall I think the ratio of riders and purpose of trip does vary between the routes. And as such I think the absence of dining car service would be much more damaging to the trains that currently have it than it is to those in the east. Obviously the Eagle’s that unlucky route they don’t seem to know what to do with but that’s probably a product of lighter ridership.



While there are many ways to provide decent food service, and different menus for eastern and western trains might be appropriate, there's no getting around the reality that for a 20-30 hour train passengers expect to be able to access decent food on the train. Not just shelf-stable snacks and crappy frozen dinners.

The quality of food currently available on the eastern trains certainly doesn't contribute to passenger health, happiness, and willingness to take the train again in the future. It could and should.


----------



## Northwestern

tricia said:


> While there are many ways to provide decent food service, and different menus for eastern and western trains might be appropriate, there's no getting around the reality that for a 20-30 hour train passengers expect to be able to access decent food on the train. Not just shelf-stable snacks and crappy frozen dinners.
> 
> The quality of food currently available on the eastern trains certainly doesn't contribute to passenger health, happiness, and willingness to take the train again in the future. It could and should.


I quite agree, Tricia. I don't think flex meals are appropriate for any Amtrak train, especially long distance. Having to spend $600-$1000 for a roomette or bedroom, you would expect quality, hot, and freshly prepared food onboard. Most likely not a good comparison, but to me it's kind of like serving Spam at a lavish Thanksgiving dinner.

Regarding the dining car, I would like to see a few tables for just 1-2 people. I know that probably won't happen as it no doubt would require additional dining car space. However, I believe some of the newer European trains do have seating for 1-2 passengers in dining or cafe cars. One of the very few things, in recently years, that has been a very good Amtrak innovation is to allow food delivery to your sleeper. Maybe I'm just antisocial, but I always feared going to the dining car and being forced to sit with people who I would never associate with otherwise. Only a very few times did I have dinner companions who were interesting to talk to. And a few horror stories. Most of the time it was saying nothing and staring out the window.


----------



## lordsigma

I don’t think


tricia said:


> While there are many ways to provide decent food service, and different menus for eastern and western trains might be appropriate, there's no getting around the reality that for a 20-30 hour train passengers expect to be able to access decent food on the train. Not just shelf-stable snacks and crappy frozen dinners.
> 
> The quality of food currently available on the eastern trains certainly doesn't contribute to passenger health, happiness, and willingness to take the train again in the future. It could and should.



I don’t think anyone disagrees that it could be and should be better (though I also don’t think it’s as bad as many people make it out to be - a number of them were fine to me when prepared properly.) But where I disagree is that it’s killing the trains (particularly the silver service.) In my experience on the silvers people are taking the train to get there - not for the food. And they seem to survive the trip on the meals offered. I like everyone here want them to be better - and hopefully the chef postings in Florida are a sign they eventually will. But I think it’s important to recognize the differences between different routes also. I don’t think the offering needs to be as extensive as what is served out west.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I don’t think the offering needs to be as extensive as what is served out west


I think everyone who rides a train over multiple meal periods would appreciate good quality food. I’ve never met anyone on an overnight train who said they don’t want to have good food.


----------



## TheCrescent

The lowest price in a sleeping car on Amtrak for my 600+ mile commute (every week or two weeks) is almost $450.

At that price, I think it’s reasonable to expect a decent meal, served on a plate, with a glass (really, made of glass) and silverware made of metal.

It doesn’t need to be made fresh on board, but it should be a decent meal.

What I received on the Crescent- a “salad” consisting of some lettuce in a plastic bowl and one cherry tomato; a room-temperature brownie in plastic wrap; an enchilada that was ok but served on plastic; and a roll (it was fine) fell short.


----------



## jis

Then again the complete lack of any Diner food did not kill the Silver Star either 

Not it is a good or bad thing, but it is a data point. My preference personally would be to have good Diner food for half the fare.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

TheCrescent said:


> And to add:
> 
> The Amtrak website says that breakfast is available starting at 6:30am for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> My train was delayed by 80 minutes so I arrived at 6:50am.
> 
> Breakfast was not an option. I was told that there wasn’t time.



When I was on the Silver Meteor many years ago, we were on time and actually scheduled to get into my stop—Winter Park, Florida —early. The LSA was coming through and taking lunch reservations and I told her I was getting off at Winter Park so would just miss lunch. 

She offered to pack me a lunch to take with me.

Of course I said no—I wouldn’t have her do extra work just to save a few dollars on lunch at a restaurant.

But it certainly shows how things have changed.


----------



## Sidney

How long have we been lamenting not having real food(aka traditional dining) on the Eastern trains and the Eagle? Over 4 years since they were introduced. The quality is at best,mediocre. That's pretty much the concesus of just about everybody here.

In a nutshell,you are paying for first class service being served third class food. On an overnight train in a sleeper you are paying good money for,decent food is expected and we aren't getting it. I disagree about people using the Eastern trains for transportation and the food quality doesn't matter. To most passengers,it does. Good cooked to order food is an integral part of a long distance train ride.

Obviously,it's been three to four years since flex "dining" reared it's ugly head. As long as the current management stays in place,don't expect any changes.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think everyone who rides a train over multiple meal periods would appreciate good quality food. I’ve never met anyone on an overnight train who said they don’t want to have good food.



Yes no one is going to refuse a first class meal if it is put in front of them and certainly first class food would boost customer satisfaction scores. Nowhere in any of my posts here am I disputing that. But there’s a difference between that and killing the trains or implying they were put in place to kill the train. They were put in place because they figured they could get away with cutting costs on these routes and the law for a number of years told them they had to - and I think in my opinion they didn’t kill the trains (and the Eastern routes were selected for the cut) because routes in the east have some differences in the overall ridership. That isn’t to say that the routes wouldn’t be better or more successful with improved food - but they are surviving and I think still serve their markets and would continue to do so under the current regimen. The food is mediocre sure - but not everyone has traditional dining to compare to as a reference point and certainly not everyone has rail dining in its hey day to compare to. I’ve yet to dine with anyone on board the silvers or lake shore that is super bent out of shape over the flex meals.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I agree with many of the points in posts above—even some that disagree with each other!

I think it varies by train.

My experience with the Silvers when they had traditional dining was that yes, people wanted to get to their destination, but that they wanted a relaxing vacation-like start to it on the train.

People seemed to enjoy conversations with table mates, and on a few trips some people had dressed up for dinner.

The Cardinal had a weird menu that was in between flex stuff and traditional—but they had nice French toast. But nobody was on the Cardinal for the food—it’s a scenery run.

I haven’t been on the Cap. Ltd., and I’ve only been on the LSL between Albany and Boston—so can’t comment on those. But I do agree with other posters that the high prices should bring decent food with them on all trains. 

I agree that meal delivery to rooms is definitely a good thing.

Although I used to love sitting in the dining car and talking with strangers, I think those days are over for me personally.

I’m finding it harder to go between moving cars to get to the dining car, then have that part in the doorway where there’s nothing to hold on to.

Also, I got so used to the 6 feet between people a couple of years ago that I now keep it up when I can — not for safety, more because it’s so nice to not have people crowding me and breathing down my neck—so I think I’d find it hard to sit so close to strangers again after so long.

So I think the dining car will be a lovely memory and I will ask for meals in my roomette from now on.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Although I used to love sitting in the dining car and talking with strangers, I think those days are over for me personally.


People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down. 

I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down.
> 
> I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.



I’ve had some lovely table mates from coach on the Silvers.

For me, the change to room delivery would be because of balance issues and feeling crowded sitting next to anyone. And mostly it’s the balance issues—I’m not as good at staying upright on CSX tracks without a handhold as I used to be.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> When I was on the Silver Meteor many years ago, we were on time and actually scheduled to get into my stop—Winter Park, Florida —early. The LSA was coming through and taking lunch reservations and I told her I was getting off at Winter Park so would just miss lunch.
> 
> She offered to pack me a lunch to take with me.
> 
> Of course I said no—I wouldn’t have her do extra work just to save a few dollars on lunch at a restaurant.
> 
> But it certainly shows how things have changed.


Think it depends on the train, the LSA (if applicable), and how many people are onboard. 

The crecent has upwards of 50 sleeper people that need to be served. Those meals have to be cooked by the cafe attendant. When I rode (sat in the cafe for quite a while) the staff seemed quite overwhelmed. 

Then I rode the northbound starlight not too long ago and got off in Portland. We arrived around 6p. Technically dining car opens at 5 or 5:30, so I would have been eligible for a meal, but when the LSA made announcements for doing dinner car reservations she said ‘people leaving is in Portland will not get dinner.’ I understood because there are lots of people getting off in Portland. They probably wouldn’t have the time to service everyone that wanted a meal. (But was it disappointing, yes, of course).


----------



## MARC Rider

lordsigma said:


> Yes no one is going to refuse a first class meal if it is put in front of them and certainly first class food would boost customer satisfaction scores. Nowhere in any of my posts here am I disputing that. But there’s a difference between that and killing the trains or implying they were put in place to kill the train. They were put in place because they figured they could get away with cutting costs on these routes and the law for a number of years told them they had to - and I think in my opinion they didn’t kill the trains (and the Eastern routes were selected for the cut) because routes in the east have some differences in the overall ridership. That isn’t to say that the routes wouldn’t be better or more successful with improved food - but they are surviving and I think still serve their markets and would continue to do so under the current regimen. The food is mediocre sure - but not everyone has traditional dining to compare to as a reference point and certainly not everyone has rail dining in its hey day to compare to. I’ve yet to dine with anyone on board the silvers or lake shore that is super bent out of shape over the flex meals.


This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?

(By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)


----------



## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I agree with many of the points in posts above—even some that disagree with each other!
> 
> I think it varies by train.
> 
> My experience with the Silvers when they had traditional dining was that yes, people wanted to get to their destination, but that they wanted a relaxing vacation-like start to it on the train.
> 
> People seemed to enjoy conversations with table mates, and on a few trips some people had dressed up for dinner.



I would definitely agree with that. I would also add my flexible dining experience has been limited to trains serving it in a Viewliner 2 dining car (the Silvers and Lake Shore) which means the ability to visit with other passengers is still there and the flex dining service has been tweaked to make it a little more friendly towards people who want to sit in the diner and visit with other passengers - I have had some great conversations with other passengers even since flex dining. I’m not personally a huge fan of what they’re doing on the crescent, cardinal, and Texas eagle with the single car concept. I think it’s possible my opinion and experience may change if I was to ride one of those trains. I think at the least they ought to get the actual car back in the consist on the crescent and Cardinal - and return a separate lounge car to the Capitol and eagle.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Then again the complete lack of any Diner food did not kill the Silver Star either
> 
> Not it is a good or bad thing, but it is a data point. My preference personally would be to have good Diner food for half the fare.


I wish we had monthly ridership by route to see how it affected ridership on the Star vs. the Meteor. My guess is that the lack of food on the Star did drive some riders to the Meteor.

It wasn't in effect long enough to kill the Star, but the fact they reinstated food service IMO indicates that it was a failed experiment.

Was the Cafe menu on the Star expanded during that period to compensate? Were there more hot items or fresh sandwiches available?


----------



## MARC Rider

Anyone have any recent experience on the Capitol Limited, another of the eastern trains that's had its dining downgraded? I rode it last Fall, and it was, of course, all flex food in their usual CCC, which also had to serve as the cafe car for coach passengers, there being no Sightseer Lounge. The dining crew had no problem with us using the CCC for a lounge, even when they opened the cafe car part for coach passengers. While it wasn't quite as nice as the usual Capitol Limited experience, it wasn't really all that bad. I hope they're not pulling a Texas Eagle/Crescent deal and forcing people to remain at their seats the whole trip.


----------



## lordsigma

MARC Rider said:


> This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?
> 
> (By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)


You have pretty much captured the essence of my point. And I’m sure my limited years of train riding (as compared to others) is showing a bit in my posts about this subject. When I started riding Amtrak the pacific parlor car was a thing of the past. The first time I was on the Star - it was during the starvation run. For me the flex meals and a VL2 diner in the consist is a huge upgrade over that first trip with just a single cafe car. I did have traditional dining on the crescent and meteor - - it was tasty but I wouldn’t have called it exceptional (better than flex but not spectacularly) in fact in comparison what they are doing now on the western trains is way better than my traditional dining experiences pre pandemic. I would also say the food quality on the auto train has trended better in the last two years since when I first started riding it. So I’m an example / I can only relate to what I myself have experienced. And for me I’ve actually seen some improvements in my limited time.


----------



## Northwestern

crescent-zephyr said:


> People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down.
> 
> I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.


 One of the reasons I miss the Parlor Car, on the Coast Starlight, has to do with meeting interesting people. I've also met interesting people in the dining car on the "Canadian" on the way to Jasper. The Canadian has a lot of passengers from other countries, so conversations are usually interesting and informative. I once met a young couple from Australia, at dinner, and we exchanged a lot of questions and answers. I told the couple that they only thing I know about Australia was learned from the old Australia based "Crocodile Hunter" program with Steve Irwin. They never watched "The Crocodile Hunter" as it didn't air in Australia, only the US and Canada.

Excursion trains such as the Alaska RR and the Rocky Mountaineer are also good for meeting people.


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good.


My experience hasn't really met with this, however I don't fly international on American carriers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Northwestern said:


> Excursion trains such as the Alaska RR and the Rocky Mountaineer are also good for meeting people.


Small correction - Alaska Railroad is not an excursion train. It’s very much a real working railroad and I’ve met many Alaskans while riding it. 

Even tourists are mostly using it for actual transportation in addition to enjoying the great views.


----------



## TheCrescent

MARC Rider said:


> This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?
> 
> (By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)


Service standards in first class on airlines have gone up significantly and pricing has gone down.

20 years ago, airline first class was ridiculously expensive and most people in first class were frequent flyers with free upgrades.

Now, at least on my regular commute, first class is 25%-40% more than coach. I usually pay for it even though I might get a free upgrade.

And service standards have gone up. I recall being upgraded on US Airways for free and getting a nightmarish cold chicken dinner in a box. Now while I pay for first class, the food and drinks are pretty good. Unlimited alcohol and meals when offered are certainly better than Flexible Dining; at least they’re on plates and with glasses.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Small correction - Alaska Railroad is not an excursion train. It’s very much a real working railroad and I’ve met many Alaskans while riding it.
> 
> Even tourists are mostly using it for actual transportation in addition to enjoying the great views.


It's a hybrid. Clearly the GoldStar service is intended for sightseers.


----------



## como

MARC Rider said:


> This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?
> 
> (By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)


I've been on international flights in coach in the last year. One American airline starting with with an "A" had a half frozen dinner meal. The second leg of the trip flight on an international airline starting with "B" featured frozen juice and the nastiest omlet ever made. 

My wife and I usually take an overnight coach trip on Amtrak each year. We usually eat bring left overs from Christmas dinner and share a bottle of wine. It's nice to eat breakfast in the diner when it is available but the food in the cafe car is more reasonably priced and not that bad. The option to buy flex meals in the cafe car for a price less than what is charged in the diner would be a great option.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service."


I would say they killed full service airline standards. 



MARC Rider said:


> And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?


Are you comparing coach class airline food to sleeper class train food? The US3 certainly killed my enthusiasm for flying US airlines internationally and if they were the only option I'd travel less often.


----------



## PaTrainFan

MARC Rider said:


> Anyone have any recent experience on the Capitol Limited, another of the eastern trains that's had its dining downgraded? I rode it last Fall, and it was, of course, all flex food in their usual CCC, which also had to serve as the cafe car for coach passengers, there being no Sightseer Lounge. The dining crew had no problem with us using the CCC for a lounge, even when they opened the cafe car part for coach passengers. While it wasn't quite as nice as the usual Capitol Limited experience, it wasn't really all that bad. I hope they're not pulling a Texas Eagle/Crescent deal and forcing people to remain at their seats the whole trip.



I was on 30 earlier this summer. I had the short ribs which, in all honesty, weren't that bad. But as many have pointed out the presentation is poor and the service just isn't what you'd like. I certainly would have preferred traditional dining but what I had sufficed, if barely. I did not stick around to see if I would be kicked out after dinner hours. In a few weeks I'll be going westbound so I am curious what the breakfast experience will be, and will finally have my first opportunity with reconstituted traditional dining on the Empire Builder, which I am very much looking forward to.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> It's a hybrid. Clearly the GoldStar service is intended for sightseers.


absolutely. Although I have met Alaskans in Goldstar as well using it for transportation. But most Alaskans are back in adventure class.

By the way, I thought the dining car experiences I had on the coast starlight were better than gold star on the Alaska Railroad. At least Amtrak gives you a choice of meal times, served desserts and doesn’t beg for tips.

I think we will see traditional dining return to the east coast trains - just a matter of time. *knocks on Pullman car for good luck*


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think we will see traditional dining return to the east coast trains - just a matter of time.  *knocks on Pullman car for good luck*


I would agree with this / it may not be exactly the same as out west. But I think improvements are coming even if they don’t totally retire the “flexible dining” moniker.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> And they seem to survive the trip on the meals offered.


I doubt that simple survival is the expectation of passengers paying hundreds of dollars for sleeper accommodations. It certainly is not mine.

If that is indeed the case, then Amtrak could provide surplus MREs and some hot water and be done with it.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> I would agree with this / it may not be exactly the same as out west. But I think improvements are coming even if they don’t totally retire the “flexible dining” moniker.


I hope so, I think a more limited menu but similar food and preparation to western "traditional" is perfectly acceptable. I understand that was an option that has been discussed.

If they brought back some of the original intent of "flexible dining", the ability to choose to eat any time and not be restricted to set hours, that would be great. Of course, that aspect was lost very early on if it was implemented at all.

Since "flexible dining" is no more flexible than traditional dining, and is now associated with fairly awful food, that branding should probably be retired if and when Amtrak improves their dining service on eastern trains and the Eaglette.

Of equal if not more importance than the food is the staffing and equipment levels. There should be at least cafe and diner LSAs and cafe service and seating available to coach passengers during meal hours. Especially if they continue to be denied access to the diner. What has been reported happening on the Crescent that coach passengers are entirely denied food service during dining service is a travesty.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> I doubt that simple survival is the expectation of passengers paying hundreds of dollars for sleeper accommodations. It certainly is not mine.
> 
> If that is indeed the case, then Amtrak could provide surplus MREs and some hot water and be done with it.



I think you somewhat miss the point of what I was arguing and I think that’s somewhat an exaggeration - but to avoid overdoing the point and beating a dead horse - will leave it there.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I think you somewhat miss the point of what I was arguing and I think that’s somewhat an exaggeration - but to avoid overdoing the point and beating a dead horse - will leave it there.


What is the bare minimum? 

I mean you can take away all food service and people would still ride. So is that good enough?


----------



## trimetbusfan

zephyr17 said:


> What has been reported happening on the Crescent that coach passengers are entirely denied food service during dining service is a travesty.



It’s true. I was shocked. The cafe was only open to Coach passengers (maybe) 3-5 hours over the coarse of the day. The rest of the day the attendant was either on his meal break or preparing sleeper flex meals.


----------



## tricia

MARC Rider said:


> This is true, and I think it should be pointed out that long-distance passenger rail is not the only line of business where service standards and quality have deteriorated. The most obvious parallel is with the airlines. Back in the dinosaur days of regulated airlines, we all used to complain about the meals served in domestic coach. Now, lack of food service is a given, yet no one is going to say that such outfits as Southwest Airlines, Spirit, etc. were doing this to "kill airline service." And even on the longer international flights, where meals are still served in coach, those meals (at least on some major American Airlines that shall not be named which begins with a "U") are so horrible they make flex food look good. Does that mean that particular airline is trying to "kill" international flights?
> 
> (By the way, back in the 1970s when I would fly to college, I made it a point to book flights where meals were served. This is partly because even though we complained about the food, it really wasn't that bad, but also partly because if I wasn't fed on the flight, I'd have to find something to eat at the airport, and the only thing worse than 1970s airline food was 1970s airport food!)


Airplane passengers have very different food needs from long-distance train passengers. There are no flights that last the 20-30 hours of Amtrak's eastern LD trains, let alone the 2 nights most western trains run.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> What is the bare minimum?
> 
> I mean you can take away all food service and people would still ride. So is that good enough?


There is a difference between saying the downgrade is "killing the train" or designed to kill the train and that it has no impact whatsoever - I was arguing against the former and not the latter. Obviously the latter isn't true and I have not once argued that - it's a obviously a major issue for many people here and other places including some that have swore off these particular trains so obviously it has some impact on the market. But enough people are still riding despite the downgrade to maintain these trains (and many likely used to it at this point given its been a few years now) - and at least from my observation on the Silvers and Lake Shore many people seem to ok with it enough that it isn't ruining the train or sleeping car accommodations for them. That doesn't mean people wouldn't prefer something better (I certainly would.) But it is not at the point yet where it's ruining for enough people where it's killing the train.

I don't find the meals terrible - I like what they serve on Acela and to me this is pretty similar to that (though Acela admittedly has a much better presentation with everything being plated). In fact most of the complaints I've heard on board about it have been employees. Again I'm not everyone - obviously many here feel it's a greater issue than I do and that's fine. I am also not saying they should do the bare minimum - they seemed to try that on the Star with a Cafe only approach and felt it wasn't successful enough that they chose to bring flex (along with the VL2 diner) over to the Star - though the Star's gain eventually became the Crescent's lost as they essentially took the Crescent's VL2 diners and gave them to the Star. While I am ok with the meals, they certainly pale in comparison to traditional dining in the west and I think everyone would be happy if they brought that over (or a version of that tailored more for the eastern trains) including myself - so at the end of the day we may disagree on some points but we certainly agree that it could be (and should be) better.


----------



## Cal

tricia said:


> There are no flights that last the 20-30 hours of Amtrak's eastern LD trains


The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.


and I’m pretty sure those flights offer food and beverage service.


----------



## Trollopian

crescent-zephyr said:


> People will call me names but I actually really like having only sleeping car and business class passengers in the diner. It cuts the chances of awkward table mates way down.
> 
> I’ve been loving my conversations with table mates on Amtrak and Alaska railroad this past month.



Ah, well. Eating With Strangers is a classic peril of train travel. I don't think that Amtrak crews have quite the "unerring judgment" of social strata that prevailed on the legendary Orient Express circa 1934:

[Hercule Poirot] sipped his wine. Then, leaning back, he ran his eye thoughtfully round 
the dining-car...

At the table opposite them were three men. They were, he guessed, single 
travellers graded and placed there by *the unerring judgment of the restaurant 
attendants*. A big swarthy Italian was picking his teeth with gusto. Opposite him 
a spare neat Englishman had the expressionless disapproving face of the well- 
trained servant. Next to the Englishman was a big American in a loud suit - 
possibly a commercial traveller. 

“You’ve got to put it over big,” he was saying in a loud, nasal voice. 

The Italian removed his toothpick to gesticulate with it freely. 

“Sure,” he said. “That whatta I say alia de time.” 

The Englishman looked out of the window and coughed.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> The CONO, LSL, and Capitol Limited are all 18 or 19 hours and while commercial flight's that long aren't everywhere, they do exist.


I will be on a 17 hour one on Sept 1 (DEL-ORD) in the Sleeper er Polaris and there should be ample reasonably good food served in two and a half meals.


----------



## tricia

This will be heresy to some of us here  but I'd be open to completely replacing sit-down, cooked-to-order, full-meal dining and table service with a MUCH better array of food in a cafe with tables where passengers can sit and eat anytime.

I LIKE the traditional diner service, a lot. I NEED better food on a long train ride than what Amtrak's been providing---indigestion and/or feeling sorry for ourselves after eating shouldn't be an unavoidable part of the Amtrak experience. 

The need for better food could be met by a thoughtful combination of decent entree salads, freshly made sandwiches (not made in Chicago days earlier), maybe box dinners like the chicken meals some of the western trains experimented with for coach passengers a while back, cups of good-quality mac and cheese and/or soup (from a freezer, not reconstituted from a dry packet), a choice of desserts beyond candy bars and plastic-wrapped brownies, side salads and rolls available a la carte.... 

Lots of ways to do this. But the key is caring enough to offer a wide enough array of good-quality foods to enable the vast majority of passengers to feel satisfied, maybe even like they've enjoyed a treat---not like they're being punished for wanting to eat on the train.

And yep, I'd trade the full-service diner meals for this, if it BOTH improved the food available AND improved the financial bottom line considerably. And IF it were executed competently.

I'm now gonna hit the "post reply" button and wait for the brickbats to fly.  Hope I haven't offended anyone--please don't take it personally.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

tricia said:


> This will be heresy to some of us here  but I'd be open to completely replacing sit-down, cooked-to-order, full-meal dining and table service with a MUCH better array of food in a cafe with tables where passengers can sit and eat anytime.
> 
> I LIKE the traditional diner service, a lot. I NEED better food on a long train ride than what Amtrak's been providing---indigestion and/or feeling sorry for ourselves after eating shouldn't be an unavoidable part of the Amtrak experience.
> 
> The need for better food could be met by a thoughtful combination of decent entree salads, freshly made sandwiches (not made in Chicago days earlier), maybe box dinners like the chicken meals some of the western trains experimented with for coach passengers a while back, cups of good-quality mac and cheese and/or soup (from a freezer, not reconstituted from a dry packet), a choice of desserts beyond candy bars and plastic-wrapped brownies, side salads and rolls available a la carte....
> 
> Lots of ways to do this. But the key is caring enough to offer a wide enough array of good-quality foods to enable the vast majority of passengers to feel satisfied, maybe even like they've enjoyed a treat---not like they're being punished for wanting to eat on the train.
> 
> And yep, I'd trade the full-service diner meals for this, if it BOTH improved the food available AND improved the financial bottom line considerably. And IF it were executed competently.
> 
> I'm now gonna hit the "post reply" button and wait for the brickbats to fly.  Hope I haven't offended anyone--please don't take it personally.



Extremely sensible suggestions, as always from you.

I think some of the classier trains (not necessarily LD) have done this in the past. For example, chowder and Whoopi pies on the Downeaster, chowder and an Asian teriyaki bowl that was actually good, unlike the flex one —I had that on the Cascades, plus a delicious huge cookie, in a lovely Art Deco style cafe car. Even huge and delicious chocolate chip cookies on the relatively tiny Ethan Allen.

I think Amtrak tries to standardize the menu and when it finds a gem, get rid of it. No more chowder on the Downeaster. (But I see their menu does still have Whoopi pies.)

I agree with you and would like to see them upgrade across the board instead of downgrade.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I think Amtrak tries to standardize the menu and when it finds a gem, get rid of it. No more chowder on the Downeaster.


The Downeaster cafe is completely 3rd party hired by the state of Maine. My understanding is that the Cascades bistro car is better because WA / OR are willing to pay for better options and more staff. (The cascades used to run with 2 staff members in the cafe, not sure if they still do.)


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Downeaster cafe is completely 3rd party hired by the state of Maine. My understanding is that the Cascades bistro car is better because WA / OR are willing to pay for better options and more staff. (The cascades used to run with 2 staff members in the cafe, not sure if they still do.)



Thanks—I did not know the background of the running/staffing of these cafes.

I wonder why they got rid of the clam chowder (or maybe it was lobster bisque). Or maybe it was never on there, and I just projected it because it’s New England and of course I would expect it on every New England menu!


----------



## Amtrak709

tricia said:


> This will be heresy to some of us here  but I'd be open to completely replacing sit-down, cooked-to-order, full-meal dining and table service with a MUCH better array of food in a cafe with tables where passengers can sit and eat anytime.
> 
> I LIKE the traditional diner service, a lot. I NEED better food on a long train ride than what Amtrak's been providing---indigestion and/or feeling sorry for ourselves after eating shouldn't be an unavoidable part of the Amtrak experience.
> 
> The need for better food could be met by a thoughtful combination of decent entree salads, freshly made sandwiches (not made in Chicago days earlier), maybe box dinners like the chicken meals some of the western trains experimented with for coach passengers a while back, cups of good-quality mac and cheese and/or soup (from a freezer, not reconstituted from a dry packet), a choice of desserts beyond candy bars and plastic-wrapped brownies, side salads and rolls available a la carte....
> 
> Lots of ways to do this. But the key is caring enough to offer a wide enough array of good-quality foods to enable the vast majority of passengers to feel satisfied, maybe even like they've enjoyed a treat---not like they're being punished for wanting to eat on the train.
> 
> And yep, I'd trade the full-service diner meals for this, if it BOTH improved the food available AND improved the financial bottom line considerably. And IF it were executed competently.
> 
> I'm now gonna hit the "post reply" button and wait for the brickbats to fly.  Hope I haven't offended anyone--please don't take it personally.


I think I would like to add my support to the general tenor and support suggested in tricia's post. My days of passenger trains began in 1966--mostly in the Pullman cars of the SAL Silver Comet Richmond to Atlanta. Even though there were still white table cloths, silver, china, etc. and some very, very good meals served I had probably missed the glory days of the dining car mystique of the 1940's, 50's, and early 1960's. I will admit that the first thing I wanted to do when I moved to Orange County CA in 1970 was to ride in a drawing room sleeper on The Super Chief LAX-CHI-LAX (pre-Amtrak) and I did just that (barely before Amtrak) and it was one of my most memorable trips in my nearly 300,000 passenger miles. Having said that, my expectations of the dining car portion of my rail travel segments over these 55+ years are based on that 1966-1971 period, i.e., the food service was acceptable and enjoyable; but not necessary luxurious. Amtrak is, of course, all we have now. If you want to continue to enjoy just being a part of rail travel, it seems to me that most of those suggestions made by tricia could go a long way toward recovering dining car service to a respectable level. Too often Amtrak services have been "inconsistent." That clearly should not be the norm.


----------



## Palmland

tricia said:


> But the key is caring enough to offer a wide enough array of good-quality foods to enable the vast majority of passengers to feel satisfied, maybe even like they've enjoyed a treat-


Couldn’t agree more. And a cafe style setting would be great for breakfast and dinner. 

However, I do think that the dining ‘experience’ is worth preserving, at least for dinner. For me that means a nice table setting (real china, multi course, good wine), a leisurely conversation with interesting table mates, and good service by a professional wait staff. And yes, I’d pay a premium for it. Probably not necessary for all trains but certainly the two night western trains, the CS, and one of the trains to Chicago and Florida. 

Of course the improved cafe style food would be available in the lounge/cafe for those wanting something simpler.


----------



## TheCrescent

For Amtrak dining:

Amtrak ought to subscribe to a “heat and serve” meal delivery service. I used Freshly (about $8 per meal, and it’s delivered, and it seemed fresh), but there are others.

Just microwave the Freshly meal, put it on real china and on a table with a tablecloth.

And have a decent drink menu. The Acela has On the Rocks pre-made Old Fashioneds, which are great; why not use similar drinks system-wide?

With those, I’d be completely satisfied. And the cost wouldn’t be much more than the cost of Flexible Dining.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I totally agree with all the Posters so far!

In fact if Amtrak wanted to serve the same offerings that are served on Acela FC I wouldn't be opposed to that at all.

I really think the Good Old Days ( early 2000s) of Very Good Meals served in Amtrak Diners are long gone and we won't see them again.!

But Higher Quality and Healthier Meals are the Minimum Requirements for Food and Drink served on Amtrak Trains!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> I really think the Good Old Days ( early 2000s) of Very Good Meals served in Amtrak Diners are long gone and we won't see them again.!


They are pretty much back to that quality on the western trains. The dinner entrees aren’t quite as good as the best entrees but they are really close and everything else is as good or better.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> They are pretty much back to that quality on the western trains. The dinner entrees aren’t quite as good as the best entrees but they are really close and everything else is as good or better.


I didn’t have it in early 2000s but I also found what they’re serving out west way better than what I had in 2017-2018.


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I didn’t have it in early 2000s but I also found what they’re serving out west way better than what I had in 2017-2018.


There were a few dinner entrees in like 2007 era that were really incredible. The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi, Crab Cakes, and Pasta with Beecher’s Cheese were crazy good. The Mahi Mahi and and Lamb Shank are the best meals I’ve had on any train - and they were consistently good from crew to crew.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> There were a few dinner entrees in like 2007 era that were really incredible. The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi, Crab Cakes, and Pasta with Beecher’s Cheese were crazy good. The Mahi Mahi and and Lamb Shank are the best meals I’ve had on any train - and they were consistently good from crew to crew.


That does sound good - sadly wasn’t yet riding Amtrak at that point was still driving everywhere.


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> There were a few dinner entrees in like 2007 era that were really incredible. The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi, Crab Cakes, and Pasta with Beecher’s Cheese were crazy good. The Mahi Mahi and and Lamb Shank are the best meals I’ve had on any train - and they were consistently good from crew to crew.


That Lamb Shank was wonderful.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

TheCrescent said:


> Sorry to be griping so much today but Flexible Dining today was not good:
> 
> 1. The side salad was a small bowl of lettuce. There was one cherry tomato in it. Nothing else.
> 
> 2. The vegetarian enchiladas were fine, on par with Amy’s frozen ones (Whole Foods, Target, etc. sell them).
> 
> 3. The really good cheesecake thing was gone, back to a room temperature brownie in sealed wrap.


From what I have heard, the enchiladas are Amy's. And I agree they are quite good, especially the 2 pack cheese ones.


----------



## Bob Dylan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> From what I have heard, the enchiladas are Amy's. And I agree they are quite good, especially the 2 pack cheese ones.


I've tried Amy's from my local Grocery, very Good,Healthy and only $5 in the Frozen Food Section!


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Bob Dylan said:


> I've tried Amy's from my local Grocery, very Good,Healthy and only $5 in the Frozen Food Section!


I'll have to pick up some Amy's enchiladas from the supermarket - and look forward to trying them while dining on Amtrak!


----------



## TheCrescent

Bob Dylan said:


> I've tried Amy's from my local Grocery, very Good,Healthy and only $5 in the Frozen Food Section!


I regularly buy them…but as a first-class dinner on Amtrak for a $500+ ticket?


----------



## Bob Dylan

TheCrescent said:


> I regularly buy them…but as a first-class dinner on Amtrak for a $500+ ticket?


Best as a Lunch item!


----------



## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> I regularly buy them…but as a first-class dinner on Amtrak for a $500+ ticket?


Look, the "$500 ticket" is mostly for having a private room and a lie-flat bed with sheets, blankets and a pillow. As for the value of the "$5 enchiladas," the true cost of putting them before you on your plate is more than that. Even when you make them at home, there's the mileage cost of driving to and from the store to buy them in the first place, the cost of the electricity needed to microwave it, and the labor cost of your time driving to the store and buying the product and then heating them up in the microwave and placing on the table. All of these costs need to be loaded with your personal overhead costs, which everyone has, even if they don't realize it. So, too, in the dining car. You're paying for someone to bring edible food to you, which is always going to be a lot more than the price of an equivalent item in a supermarket case.


----------



## daybeers

MARC Rider said:


> Look, the "$500 ticket" is mostly for having a private room and a lie-flat bed with sheets, blankets and a pillow.


True, but have we really reached the level of forgiving Amtrak for bottom-shelf supermarket frozen food?

And they should not be $500 for one night.


----------



## lordsigma

There’s also the matter of practicality. Consider the facilities in the cafe cars. You have finite storage space and work area. Thus you need items that are quick to serve when you have a line of people whether cold or heated. You also have to consider the shelf life of items. That’s why there may be items that are practical in the cafe car on regionals which may not be on an overnighter due to the trip length both due to shelf life and because you need to cover a larger trip with the food you have on an LD train (and hence more of each item). Dining cars are a totally different concept so I’m not going to go into those. I think they’ve made an honest effort here to mix up and refresh what they’re offering in the cafe. One does need to have a little bit of realism about the limitations and constraints of cafe service.


----------



## zephyr17

They did fairly well with the meals on the Lake Shore with a cafe prior to flex, after they ran low on servicable Heritage diners.

There is also no excuse for having pulled the diners off the Crescent and limiting themselves to the cafe.

Yes, cafes have fewer facilities than dining cars, but they have already shown they can pull off decent meal service in one. Still, Amtrak has no real excuse for removing dining cars the Crescent.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> They did fairly well with the meals on the Lake Shore with a cafe prior to flex, after they ran low on servicable Heritage diners.
> 
> There is also no excuse for having pulled the diners off the Crescent and limiting themselves to the cafe.
> 
> Yes, cafes have fewer facilities than dining cars, but they have already shown they can pull off decent meal service in one. Still, Amtrak has no real excuse for removing dining cars the Crescent.


Well that’s another problem too. When you have trains that you have to serve Both the flex and coach menu out of the same cafe that’s going to limit the menu you can have given you have to store all those flex meals.


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## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> Both the flex and coach menu out of the same cafe that’s going to limit the menu you can have given you have to store all those flex meals.


Yes, and I'd say that has an obvious solution. Put another food service car on, which they have a supply of.

That situation is entirely self-inflicted, especially on the Crescent. The fact that it is an obvious problem seems to have been convienently ignored by Amtrak's [adjective_deleted/] management.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Look, the "$500 ticket" is mostly for having a private room and a lie-flat bed with sheets, blankets and a pillow.


Says who?

Amtrak always presented their dining car experience as a unique and enjoyable feature of riding the train from the beginning to the present day. Amtrak dining is featured on the Lake Shore Limited route poster and was the last amenity to lose “First Class” designation. Amtrak has never presented Sleeper Class as subsistence travel and has featured photos of traditional dining even when no such service existed.






^ Does any part of this look like they're advertising three hots and a cot?


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, and I'd say that has an obvious solution. Put another food service car on, which they have a supply of.
> 
> That situation is entirely self-inflicted, especially on the Crescent. The fact that it is an obvious problem seems to have been convienently ignored by Amtrak's [adjective_deleted/] management.



Sadly the Star’s gain is the Crescent’s loss. Hopefully they’ll abandon this desire for a single food service car on certain routes in due time.


----------



## Steve4031

If they could simply provide the same meal service as provided on the CZ, SWC, CS, and EB on all overnight trains that would be a major step in the right direction. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a need to spend money and hire staff and to hold management and staff accountable to providing better customer service.


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## Sidney

Steve4031 said:


> If they could simply provide the same meal service as provided on the CZ, SWC, CS, and EB on all overnight trains that would be a major step in the right direction. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a need to spend money and hire staff and to hold management and staff accountable to providing better customer service.


Exactly! How long will the "can't find cooks" excuse last? There is a major hiring event going on now. If there is still flex crap on the Eastern trains and Eagle by January,obviously Amtrak has no plans whatsoever to reinstate real food.


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## lordsigma

I think hostel and campground is a bit of an exaggeration. First of all the meal service on the trains that attract the most riders for the "experience" (where riding the train is a major part of the trip) is very good at the moment. For the other trains - in my opinion a private room with the ability to lie flat, and the peace and quiet without a stranger nearby is worth a few bucks and they offer a meal - yes mediocre but very edible and passable in my opinion (yes not for others). It's maybe not for everyone - it does seem like some that post here feel the primary benefit of getting a sleeper is the dining car and that's fine - but I don't think everyone necessarily sees it that way otherwise no one would ride anymore. Yes Delta is an option - but some people ride the train for reasons other than the food and realize it's not the quickest and most efficient way to get to their destination - such as feeling its more relaxing than flying, watching the world go by out the window, or don't like flying - such as myself. The food served doesn't really impact any of those primary reasons as to why I take the train. As I said before - would I welcome them expanding traditional dining to the other LD trains? You bet - and I think they should as it would diversify their customer base and bring back riders such as some who have sworn off the trains until they do. Is it going to ruin Amtrak for me if they don't? Nope. Overnight travel on Amtrak isn't for everyone and you may disagree with me and that's fine - it's a free country. And I'm not the only one that doesn't get bent out of shape over the food at least from my experience. Clearly some here prefer Delta or American or Southwest absent the traditional meals- and that's fine - it's a free market and country I'm not going to criticize how one spends their money.


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep the discussion in this thread on the topic of Amtrak Dining. Off topic posts may be removed.

Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## Shanson

joelkfla said:


> Now, IMO, frozen microwaved pancakes can be fairly decent


Please do not take this comment personally, but many folks posting make comments about Flex meals being microwaved. This is not accurate. The meals are heated in convection ovens. Those foil covers would set a microwave oven on fire!

We forum members should always be doing our best to give accurate information. Thanks.


----------



## CHImdw1522

I am a Million Mile+ flyer. I love to fly, and for me the flight is part of the vacation, the visit, or the best part of a business trip. Airline food, in my opinion, is only OK. Domestic first class / business class food on US airlines is only OK.- even on most international flights everything (salad, main course & dessert) is served all at once on one tray.

I love Amtrak Long distance roomette accommodations on western trains. I have ridden the Builder, the Chief, the Zephyr, and the Coast Starlight at least once. I have also had my share of cancellations, very late arrivals / departures and attempted downgrades to coach - which I refused for a refund instead. I have written my fair share of complaint letters. I have also had early arrivals (this past August on the Builder from Seattle to Chicago - arriving 10 minutes early).

I have always received great service from my car attendant and from everyone in the dinner. I tip generously.

My meals have always been enjoyable and tasty. I enjoy dinner with tablecloths and a free drink. The appetizers and desserts are currently not to my liking, but all of the main courses are very good. The flat iron steak is always prepared to perfection.

Once on the Chief when the water supply in the diner caused it to be closed for lunch, I was given a coupon to use to get something in the cafe car & bring back to eat in the diner. The turkey sandwich was delicious.

All in all, despite the various problems faced by the transportation industry lately, the meal service on US airlines is not even in the same ballpark as the food service on Amtrak for sleeping car (first class) passengers - and I get a bed in a private roomette too!

While I look forward to even better menus and service on Amtrak in the future, I have no such hopes for improved airline food and meal presentation.

I hope to see improved food service on all trains and allowing coach customers to purchase dining car meals.

Until then, Amtrak deserves credit for what it is doing well.


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## TheCrescent

I would agree that traditional dining (tablecloths, freshly-made food) on Amtrak is better than first-class airline food.


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## pennyk

pennyk said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep the discussion in this thread on the topic of Amtrak Dining. Off topic posts may be removed.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.


Many posts were either moved to an airline thread, removed because they were off the topic of Amtrak dining and/or removed because they were a response to a removed/off topic post.

Edit to add: some of the off topic posts that had constructive content were moved to the following thread:




__





What should Amtrak change?


This forum complains a lot about Amtrak. Though I think we all share a love of what we have been given (no matter how much it may test our love), we will all admit that the company has its shortcomings. I think most on this forum would agree however, that many of Amtrak’s issues do actually...




www.amtraktrains.com





Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


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## joelkfla

See how much things have changed. Check out this 1977 brochure from Streamliner Memories: 


http://streamlinermemories.info/Amtrak/Amtrak77Diners.pdf


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## jis

CHImdw1522 said:


> I am a Million Mile+ flyer. I love to fly, and for me the flight is part of the vacation, the visit, or the best part of a business trip. Airline food, in my opinion, is only OK. Domestic first class / business class food on US airlines is only OK.- even on most international flights everything (salad, main course & dessert) is served all at once on one tray.


I am a several million mile BIS flyer, but that actually has very little bearing on what is happening in Business/First Class today. That would happen regardless of how much I flew or not. 

The single tray serving was certainly the case during the COVID years. But as airlines evolve from the COVID years to more normal year, they are slowly starting to deliver the basic place setting in a tray together with the Appetizer and Salad, and as those are consumed they are removed and replaced by the main course, and then finally the Dessert. At least that was my experience in Business Class over the last three weeks on United, Air India, Lufthansa and Vistara. But in the case of US airlines that is still far short of what was the norm.

United in Polaris though did a strange hybrid, they laid down a table cloth and delivered the pre-meal snacks on it, and then delivered the meal setup on a tray with its own table cloth, and delivered the dessert separately on the original table cloth setup after removing the meal tray. I am told in a discussion on flyer talk that this is new this week, so things are evolving I suppose.

Admittedly this may not be uniformly the case and perhaps it is only the case on very long fights on US airlines. OTOH Vistara and Air India (both now managed by the Tata Group, Vistara in collaboration with Singapore Airlines) served excellent full meals (Dinner and Breakfast respectively) in Coach (Air India) and First Class (Vistara), on what amounted to a domestic flight in India of around 2 hours duration.

With very little additional effort Amtrak could even serve the Flex meal in a more presentable form on a tray which is somewhat more elaborate than the ridiculous frame of a tray that they are supposed to use with the Flex Meal but seldom do. Regardless, they need to add a second server if they intend to have a food service that is not a laughing stock meant to just tick mark :food service" instead of actually being a credible service.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> With very little additional effort Amtrak could even serve the Flex meal in a more presentable form on a tray which is somewhat more elaborate than the ridiculous frame of a tray that they are supposed to use with the Flex Meal but seldom do. Regardless, they need to add a second server if they intend to have a food service that is not a laughing stock meant to just tick mark :food service" instead of actually being a credible service.


Presentation is also my biggest criticism. I've never found the food to be that bad, but if they took the time to present it better could make a difference for some. Though I certainly wouldn't complain if they reworked it entirely into a new product either.


----------



## TheCrescent

If this UK train operating company can offer this, why can’t Amtrak?






Pullman Train Dining | Great Western Railway


Experience silver service on-board Great Western Railway trains with our Pullman Dining. Click here to see our menus and find out more.




www.gwr.com


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I very recently saw job postings on Amtrak.com for chefs based out of Miami, FL. Could that be an indication of a return to traditional dining on East Coast long distance trains?


----------



## joelkfla

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I very recently saw job postings on Amtrak.com for chefs based out of Miami, FL. Could that be an indication of a return to traditional dining on East Coast long distance trains?


It means they're trying to do something, but IIRC these postings were first seen last winter, which may mean that they're not having much success.


----------



## Rambling Robert

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-0822.pdf



The Blue Corn Veggie Tamale is on the menu at Amtrak Cafe or should I say “Caffè Amtrak” haha. Oh and IS IT GOOD !!!

The Tucson Tamale is on National and some Regional trains BUT not the DownEaster.

I googled the company that makes it “Tucson Tamale” and discovered a local health food store - had them.

The Dollar Tree has Tamales which are okay but the Tucson Tamale - to me - is a mash up (literally) of Thanksgiving turkey stuffing and a burrito! Really, really tasty!

Tamales have a wrapping, usually corn husk (NOT eaten) that can be peeled back to eat on the run. It’s messy to eat with just fingers but using a fork is best.

At the nearby store the brand Tucson Tamale has four different tamales only one has meat (pork). Two to a package for $6. My niece’s husband who is of Aztec descent steams the tamale for 20 minutes or so. But I very successfully microwaved them. Following the package instructions - I WRAPPED THEM IN WET PAPER TOWELS - in the microwave 2.5 minutes. FINE. I ate both but next time one with black beans and rice - should do.

So folks - size may vary - but here something worth trying at home or in the ‘Caffè Amtrak’!

THE TUCSON TAMALE


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## MccfamschoolMom

Rambling Robert said:


> My niece’s husband who is of Aztec descent steams the tamale for 20 minutes or so. But I very successfully microwaved them. Following the package instructions - I WRAPPED THEM IN WET PAPER TOWELS - in the microwave 2.5 minutes.


I found instructions online for steaming tamales in my Instant Pot, and have tried that a couple of times with meat-department tamales when fixing family-size quantities. Microwaving would be quicker for just 1 or 2 people, though, and those Tuscon Tamales certainly sound yummy!


----------



## IndyLions

lordsigma said:


> Presentation is also my biggest criticism. I've never found the food to be that bad, but if they took the time to present it better could make a difference for some. Though I certainly wouldn't complain if they reworked it entirely into a new product either.


Presentation is a big criticism with me as well. Here’s an example (on the Silver) of being determined to enjoy a better experience than what they initially “presented” me…

Before (from Amtrak):



After:



Not terrific, but much more appetizing…


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> Presentation is a big criticism with me as well. Here’s an example (on the Silver) of being determined to enjoy a better experience than what they initially “presented” me…
> 
> Before (from Amtrak):
> View attachment 29565
> 
> 
> After:
> View attachment 29566
> 
> 
> Not terrific, but much more appetizing…


How does ANYONE defend that? that entree looks disgusting and that salad is beyond pathetic. It still shocks me that this is what is served to sleeper passengers on high $$$ trains like the Silver and Lake Shore.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> How does ANYONE defend that? that entree looks disgusting and that salad is beyond pathetic. It still shocks me that this is what is served to sleeper passengers on high $$$ trains like the Silver and Lake Shore.



The taste of the current short ribs meal is actually not that bad at all. But as they say - you do see food before you taste it and presentation can be really important. I always find myself saying that tasted way better than it looked with the flex meals. But for some people that initial impression may kill it. The one good sign of the tin foil is that means it went in the oven and not the microwave.


----------



## niemi24s

lordsigma said:


> The one good sign of the tin foil is that means it went in the oven and not the microwave.


. . .or maybe the tinfoil was removed prior to microwaving and then replaced to help keep it warm?


----------



## lordsigma

niemi24s said:


> . . .or maybe the tinfoil was removed prior to microwaving and then replaced to help keep it warm?


Maybe sometimes but in most of my experiences I have seen that they are using the ovens to heat the flex meals. (On the VL2 diner.) I have not had flex on an AmCan.


----------



## MARC Rider

IndyLions said:


> Presentation is a big criticism with me as well. Here’s an example (on the Silver) of being determined to enjoy a better experience than what they initially “presented” me…
> 
> Before (from Amtrak):
> View attachment 29565
> 
> 
> After:
> View attachment 29566
> 
> 
> Not terrific, but much more appetizing…


This is true. back in 2019, I had flex food served to me on the Cardinal similar to the second picture. I mean, it helped that there were only 12 passengers in the sleeper, so the attendant may not have been hammered with meal requests. It also helped that the coach attendant was helping him out.


----------



## Rambling Robert

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I found instructions online for steaming tamales in my Instant Pot, and have tried that a couple of times with meat-department tamales when fixing family-size quantities. Microwaving would be quicker for just 1 or 2 people, though, and those Tuscon Tamales certainly sound yummy!


I’ve never used an Instant pot put years ago used a pressure cooker and would cut cooking time on certain items in about half. I think I’ve seen pressure cookers in train kitchens.

The tamale does need something to go with it on an Amtrak Menu - maybe black beans and rice. But I’m happy Amtrak has it!


----------



## OBS

Rambling Robert said:


> I’ve never used an Instant pot put years ago used a pressure cooker and would cut cooking time on certain items in about half. I think I’ve seen pressure cookers in train kitchens.
> 
> The tamale does need something to go with it on an Amtrak Menu - maybe black beans and rice. But I’m happy Amtrak has it!


There are no pressure cookers in Amtrak diner kitchens...


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Rambling Robert said:


> I’ve never used an Instant pot put years ago used a pressure cooker and would cut cooking time on certain items in about half.


An "Instant Pot" is an electric pressure cooker, which can also saute, slow-cook, etc.. It's a brand name of a particular kind of electric pressure cooker, but is informally used to refer to similar electric pressure cookers from other manufacturers. (F.ex., I've owned both an Instant Pot and a Ninja Foodi in the past, but my current electric pressure cooker is made by Hamilton Beach.) I'll defer to more knowledgeable AU members as to whether or not pressure cookers are/have been/could be in future a thing in Amtrak diner kitchens, though.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Wonder if they would find some reason to object if you brought your own tablecloth and flower...


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Brian Battuello said:


> Wonder if they would find some reason to object if you brought your own tablecloth and flower...


Good question! I would think that could surely be done on the small table in one's roomette or bedroom, but don't know if it would be OK in the dining car. (If it was allowed, you'd probably have to be willing to share that tablecloth & flower with any diners not of your own party at your table for the duration of that meal.)


----------



## Brian Battuello

Which I would do gladly, of course. And the rest would be wanting one too! 

The attendant would be so busy thawing meals that they probably would just roll their eyes and press on.


----------



## niemi24s

There may be an FDA or Amtrak rule against using your own tablecloth and flower.


----------



## enviro5609

Brian Battuello said:


> Wonder if they would find some reason to object if you brought your own tablecloth and flower...



I've brought my own tablecloth on the Meteor. It was about this time last year. 

Not at an issue at all. The LSA got a real kick out of it.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

In one of his videos, Simply Railway brought his own tablecloth on Amtrak and spread it with a flourish over his roomette table.

He said he’s French, of course he travels with a tablecloth.


----------



## Mailliw

niemi24s said:


> . . .or maybe the tinfoil was removed prior to microwaving and then replaced to help keep it warm?


Lol, that's alot of effort for an overworked SCA to go through.


----------



## JWM

Said it before and will say it again, all overnight trains should have a real dining car, with real food, served on real china, on a real tablecloth/napkin etc. Also, can't they vary the menu items from train to train. You take the CZ to Emeryville then the CS to Seattle and, presto, same food, same menu and may God bless the departed "Pacific Parlour Car" on the CS which was loved.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> How does ANYONE defend that? that entree looks disgusting and that salad is beyond pathetic. It still shocks me that this is what is served to sleeper passengers on high $$$ trains like the Silver and Lake Shore.



Swanson Frozen Dinners have a better appearance presentation than the "better" presentation shown.


----------



## TheCrescent

Is there a contact at Amtrak who would be receptive to suggestions about long distance train dining?

Flexible Dining is just not cutting it: this time, a menu printed using an office printer in 81/2”x11” office paper; the menu in my room was wrong and didn’t have what was listed; I was given a substituted entree without being asked; and dinner was served (without a choice) at 4pm. I thought that Flexible Dining’s appeal was that you could eat when you wanted.

I’ve seen that JetBlue features Dig Inn food; that’s a NYC chain that has really good, healthy and filling yet relatively inexpensive food, served cafeteria-style in cardboard bowls. There’s a new Dig Inn a block or two from Penn Station, so Amtrak could easily get food from there or from one of the other similar chains, such as Sweetgreen. Even Chipotle would be better than Flexible Dining.


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## Sidney

On the Eagle last month there was one sitting. 5PM. Lunch was at 12PM. The lounge/cafe car was closed to Coach passengers from 11 to1 and 4 to 6.

There is nothing appealing about flex dining The term "flexible" I thought meant you could eat when you wanted. Everytime I had flex I was assigned a certain time.


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## zephyr17

TheCrescent said:


> Is there a contact at Amtrak who would be receptive to suggestions about long distance train dining?
> 
> Flexible Dining is just not cutting it: this time, a menu printed using an office printer in 81/2”x11” office paper; the menu in my room was wrong and didn’t have what was listed; I was given a substituted entree without being asked; and dinner was served (without a choice) at 4pm. I thought that Flexible Dining’s appeal was that you could eat when you wanted.
> 
> I’ve seen that JetBlue features Dig Inn food; that’s a NYC chain that has really good, healthy and filling yet relatively inexpensive food, served cafeteria-style in cardboard bowls. There’s a new Dig Inn a block or two from Penn Station, so Amtrak could easily get food from there or from one of the other similar chains, such as Sweetgreen. Even Chipotle would be better than Flexible Dining.


I am pretty sure Amtrak is aware of the general response to flex dining. The RPA reminds them about it anyway. They've spun up a committee to study food options going into the future (a committee being the only known form of life with 10 stomachs and no brain).

They do appear to be posting chef jobs in the east that appear to be at locations for the Silvers, at least. So the end of it may be within our lifetimes, for the Silvers anyway.

As to suggestions from outsiders, those would almost certainly disappear into the round file (or bit bucket if electronic).


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## Devil's Advocate

TheCrescent said:


> Is there a contact at Amtrak who would be receptive to suggestions about long distance train dining?


Some contributors have said they received responses from certified mail sent to executives. Others have said they were able to talk to a manager over the phone back when call volumes were much lower. I've even had someone reach out to me asking about a post I made here on the forum but it's rare. For my money I think the best bang-for-buck is achieved when you ask for a credit through Customer Relations. Even if the credit is tiny it should still create a paper trail that ends up in a monthly report. If enough credits are categorized as poor dining experience it might gain some traction. Joining the RPA is not free but it's cheap enough that I never miss the fee. If everyone who has a problem with Amtrak joined the RPA it could grant them more leverage to push for improvements.


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## Sauve850

Sidney said:


> On the Eagle last month there was one sitting. 5PM. Lunch was at 12PM. The lounge/cafe car was closed to Coach passengers from 11 to1 and 4 to 6.
> 
> There is nothing appealing about flex dining The term "flexible" I thought meant you could eat when you wanted. Everytime I had flex I was assigned a certain time.


I had a choice ( of times ) on my Cardinal trip recently just like every other long distance train Ive been on in the past.


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## Sidney

Sauve850 said:


> I had a choice ( of times ) on my Cardinal trip recently just like every other long distance train Ive been on in the past.


I did have a choice of times on every trip with flex,but the Cardinal had that one 5PM seating. What I meant to say was,like traditional dining,there were set times. The term flex,from what I understand,meant you can order your dinner at any time you wanted during dinner hours,not set times.


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## trimetbusfan

Sauve850 said:


> I had a choice ( of times ) on my Cardinal trip recently just like every other long distance train Ive been on in the past.


There are less passengers to serve on the Cardinal.


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## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> I did have a choice of times on every trip with flex,but the Cardinal had that one 5PM seating. What I meant to say was,like traditional dining,there were set times. The term flex,from what I understand,meant you can order your dinner at any time you wanted during dinner hours,not set times.


That is what it was intended to be when it was first rolled out, no more "seatings." Not sure how long that lasted, if they even ever did it that way at all.

It is still defined that way in the Service Standards manual:
_13. Flexible Dining Service Flexible Dining is a relaxed, freestyle dining service for Sleeping car customers on select long distance routes. 
• Flexible Dining Service routes: 
• Crescent (19/20) 
• Capitol Limited (29/30) 
• Lake Shore Limited (48/49/448/449) 
• Cardinal (50/51) 
• City of New Orleans (58/59) 
• Sliver Star (91/92) 
• Silver Meteor (97/98) 
• Meals are provided from an exclusive lounge only for Sleeping car customers. 
• Sleeping car customers are entitled to one alcoholic beverage (must be 21 and over). • Sleeping car customers are entitled to unlimited non-alcoholic beverages. 
• Breakfast service is a grab-and-go continental breakfast service. • Customers can have as many breakfast items as they like. 
• Lunch/Dinner – Customers are entitled to one entrée per meal period. 
•* Hours of Service: *_
* • Breakfast: 6:30AM -11:00AM *
_* • Lunch/Dinner: 11:00AM – 11:00PM *
• Exclusive lounge is available for sleeping car customers to relax, dine and socialize 24/7. 
*• Dining times are flexible – customers can eat when they choose while the attendant is on duty.*

 _

For more laughs, like cafes being open endpoint to endpoint on short distance trains, the service standards manual is available for download on Amtrak.com.



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/foia/amtrak-service-standards-manual-091222-redacted.pdf


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## marcoloco

Sidney said:


> On the Eagle last month there was one sitting. 5PM. Lunch was at 12PM. The lounge/cafe car was closed to Coach passengers from 11 to1 and 4 to 6.
> 
> There is nothing appealing about flex dining The term "flexible" I thought meant you could eat when you wanted. Everytime I had flex I was assigned a certain time.


The Texas Eagle is unfortunately one of those trains in which the crew determines the procedure for that particular day and they do it to comfort themselves, not the passengers. The train is staffed out of Chicago. The Chicago crew base is well known for their laziness and rudeness.


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## poncho

MccfamschoolMom said:


> An "Instant Pot" is an electric pressure cooker, which can also saute, slow-cook, etc.. It's a brand name of a particular kind of electric pressure cooker, but is informally used to refer to similar electric pressure cookers from other manufacturers. (F.ex., I've owned both an Instant Pot and a Ninja Foodi in the past, but my current electric pressure cooker is made by Hamilton Beach.) I'll defer to more knowledgeable AU members as to whether or not pressure cookers are/have been/could be in future a thing in Amtrak diner kitchens, though.


Amtrak should look at those Suvie robot ovens (those one's you see advertise on YouTube)


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## Devil's Advocate

poncho said:


> Amtrak should look at those Suvie robot ovens (those one's you see advertise on YouTube)


When I was working at a mixed use office many years ago we complained about the quality of the coffee. To solve the problem the owning entity brought in a new coffee maker that retailed for around $10k. Unfortunately the coffee tasted exactly the same because they kept brewing the same roast. The coffee I like costs more per pound than the cheap and generic coffee maker that brews it. In order for a fancy oven to have an obvious and reliable impact you first have to start with quality ingredients.


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## lordsigma

Ive said this before I have not found the flex meals to be particularly bad and I’d disagree that it’s considerably lower quality than Acela first though Acelas presentation is certainly better with real plates - I actually would say I even liked a couple of them. I would add I don’t have dietary restrictions and I would also mention I have only had flex meals prepared as they are supposed to be in a convection oven in a VL2 diner which may make a difference compared to microwaving if the attendant on the Eagle, Crescent, and Cardinal is doing that. I’d certainly take traditional back in a heartbeat but for me I can live with it on a two night trip. I might feel differently if they took away the viewliner diner though as a place to sit which I love. Some of the photos you see clearly show the meals still in the packaging when served so some clearly are microwaving.


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## fdaley

When we rode in first class on the Acela last month from New York to Boston, we were served breakfast en route. Because we had chosen table seating for our group of three, we effectively had table service. The attendant gave us professionally printed menus with at least four choices, and the items listed on the menu actually were all available. Our omelets and potatoes arrived on real plates with metal utensils and cloth napkins. Obviously the eggs weren't cooked to order, but the omelets had a savory filling, and the presentation probably made the meal seem better than it was. The portions were small, but fine for a 3.5-hour ride. The attendant was attentive and efficient, and the coffee, though served in a disposable cup, was excellent. We left the train feeling this was an experience worth repeating.

The last time I took the Lake Shore Limited overnight, nearly three years ago and just before the pandemic, the only hot breakfast item available was the Jimmy Dean hockey puck, which the LSA would heat up if you requested one. He also dispensed coffee. Otherwise, breakfast was entirely self-service, with Styrofoam bowls, plastic cutlery and thin paper napkins. There were a few kinds of cold cereal, some apples and bananas, tiny containers of yogurt and prepackaged muffins -- what my wife calls "glue muffins." I put something together. It was better than nothing, but it was my only meal on a 16-hour ride for which I paid far more than I did for my more recent Acela trip. I left the Lake Shore feeling hungry and vowing to stay away, which is partly why my Amtrak travel since then has been limited to the triangle between Maine, Virginia and upstate New York.


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## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> The last time I took the Lake Shore Limited overnight, nearly three years ago and just before the pandemic, the only hot breakfast item available was the Jimmy Dean hockey puck, which the LSA would heat up if you requested one. He also dispensed coffee. Otherwise, breakfast was entirely self-service, with Styrofoam bowls, plastic cutlery and thin paper napkins. There were a few kinds of cold cereal, some apples and bananas, tiny containers of yogurt and prepackaged muffins -- what my wife calls "glue muffins." I put something together. It was better than nothing, but it was my only meal on a 16-hour ride for which I paid far more than I did for my more recent Acela trip. I left the Lake Shore feeling hungry and vowing to stay away, which is partly why my Amtrak travel since then has been limited to the triangle between Maine, Virginia and upstate New York.



They’ve made some tweaks to flex dining in the last three years that in my opinion makes it a little more tolerable than your experience. (Some will disagree which is fine, I’m merely sharing my opinion not arguing that others or even yourself should agree with me. Food is a highly subjective thing as we all have different tastes, dietary requirements, likes, dislikes, etc. So you’re never going to get across the board agreement.) They dispensed with the self service concept at breakfast (at least on the Lake Shore) and the attendant serves you at the table now. They have also added some breakfast entrees besides the continental option. Tough thing with the reheated breakfast is they all depend on heating them precisely to get the proper result. If you overheat pre made French toast it will be hard as a rock, and if you overheat a pre made omelette it will dry out. But when prepped correctly it isn’t horrible. I will add I have had the same experience on Acela at breakfast as well - if not heated precisely the egg based breakfasts tend to dry out. 

Having said all that there’s certainly room for improvement particularly on the presentation side. I’d love to see traditional dining or something closer to that return as much as anyone. I find flexible workable on a one night trip and it doesn’t drive me away but would also welcome an effort to improve things for those that aren’t on the same page as I on this issue and those that have dietary restrictions. Certainly for the money we pay it could be better - but I personally don’t find it as bad as some make it out to be and for me food isn’t really a make of break deal on the train. But again this is all my personal opinion. I personally take no offense to disagreement on this it’s food - for many the food is a big deal and for their sake I hope they make some changes in the near future.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> They dispensed with the self service concept at breakfast (at least on the Lake Shore) and the attendant serves you at the table now.


On the Silver Meteor last fall, I was served. On the Silver Star in June, I served myself (including dinner).

Either they've flip-flopped twice, or, more likely IMO, it depends on the LSA.


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## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> On the Silver Meteor last fall, I was served. On the Silver Star in June, I served myself (including dinner).
> 
> Either they've flip-flopped twice, or, more likely IMO, it depends on the LSA.


Could be - also on the Star lately they’ve been serving five sleepers. Will be interested to see how it is when they split the train back up in two weeks.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> Could be - also on the Star lately they’ve been serving five sleepers. Will be interested to see how it is when they split the train back up in two weeks.


They were at the time, but it's been down to 4 for the past month or so, and they've also deleted the 3rd sleeper on the Meteor when it resumes. I know because I was booked in the 3rd sleeper, and I got deleted, too.


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## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> On the Silver Meteor last fall, I was served. On the Silver Star in June, I served myself (including dinner).
> 
> Either they've flip-flopped twice, or, more likely IMO, it depends on the LSA.


It's Amtrak. They didn't flip flop policy, they just don't observe it. The policies are set out in the Service Standards Manual and are roundly ignored.


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## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> They were at the time, but it's been down to 4 for the past month or so, and they've also deleted the 3rd sleeper on the Meteor when it resumes. I know because I was booked in the 3rd sleeper, and I got deleted, too.



I am booked in the third meteor sleeper in April and have not been bumped so I’m assuming the intention is to return it sometime between now and then (likely staffing dependent.)


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## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> I am booked in the third meteor sleeper in April and have not been bumped so I’m assuming the intention is to return it sometime between now and then (likely staffing dependent.)


Don't count your chickens, the sleeper cuts on the Builder, CZ and SW Chief took place with a month or less notice. And I know for a fact that the second Builder sleeper had been "restored" after having previously been cut.


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## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Don't count your chickens, the sleeper cuts on the Builder, CZ and SW Chief took place with a month or less notice. And I know for a fact that the second Builder sleeper had been "restored" after having previously been cut.


I would point to (likely staffing dependent) in my comment. I am well aware things aren’t always going to plan or intent at the moment.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> I am booked in the third meteor sleeper in April and have not been bumped so I’m assuming the intention is to return it sometime between now and then (likely staffing dependent.)


The third Sleeper on the Meteor comes back one week before Thanksgiving.

I have been booked on it the day after it returns, and my booking remains unchanged.


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## Widfara

Can't figure out where else to put this. Do they serve dinner upon leaving Chicago on the Cardinal?


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## OBS

Widfara said:


> Can't figure out where else to put this. Do they serve dinner upon leaving Chicago on the Cardinal?


Yes


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## Bob Dylan

Widfara said:


> Can't figure out where else to put this. Do they serve dinner upon leaving Chicago on the Cardinal?


And you'll change Time upon entering Indiana from Central to Eastern ( Forward One Hour) but Dinner will be served on Central Time.


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## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> They’ve made some tweaks to flex dining in the last three years that in my opinion makes it a little more tolerable than your experience. (Some will disagree which is fine, I’m merely sharing my opinion not arguing that others or even yourself should agree with me. Food is a highly subjective thing as we all have different tastes, dietary requirements, likes, dislikes, etc. So you’re never going to get across the board agreement.) They dispensed with the self service concept at breakfast (at least on the Lake Shore) and the attendant serves you at the table now. They have also added some breakfast entrees besides the continental option. Tough thing with the reheated breakfast is they all depend on heating them precisely to get the proper result. If you overheat pre made French toast it will be hard as a rock, and if you overheat a pre made omelette it will dry out. But when prepped correctly it isn’t horrible. I will add I have had the same experience on Acela at breakfast as well - if not heated precisely the egg based breakfasts tend to dry out.
> 
> Having said all that there’s certainly room for improvement particularly on the presentation side. I’d love to see traditional dining or something closer to that return as much as anyone. I find flexible workable on a one night trip and it doesn’t drive me away but would also welcome an effort to improve things for those that aren’t on the same page as I on this issue and those that have dietary restrictions. Certainly for the money we pay it could be better - but I personally don’t find it as bad as some make it out to be and for me food isn’t really a make of break deal on the train. But again this is all my personal opinion. I personally take no offense to disagreement on this it’s food - for many the food is a big deal and for their sake I hope they make some changes in the near future.


I guess my point in comparing the two experiences (Acela First and Lake Shore) is that on the Acela, where Amtrak sees itself competing directly with airlines for a substantial number of riders, meal service clearly is held to a higher standard in service and presentation, even for relatively short trips. In contrast, the current leadership at Amtrak seems to view the ridership on the eastern long-distance trains as more of a captive audience -- and a comparatively limited pool of potential riders on a high-cost service. They seem much less concerned, if they are concerned at all, about offending this group with lousy food or poor service. 

It's true, as you've pointed out in other posts, that many people are continuing to ride the one-night trains. They think the food is OK, or they're willing to tolerate it because it's more important to them to travel by train no matter what food service is offered. And because the capacity of the LD trains is limited by equipment decisions made 30 years ago, the sleepers remain relatively full on many departures. Even so, I don't think I am the only veteran rider who's staying away or choosing the train less often because of the loss of dining service. And I suspect there are infrequent and first-time riders who've been turned off by flex dining as it has gone through its various permutations over the past four years. 

I hope the committee with 10 stomachs and no brain (as zephyr17 put it) comes up with a bold new plan for fixing things. My fear is that they'll take the current meal-service formula on the eastern trains, make some modifications, and in a year or two be unveiling nouveau flex lite dining.


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## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> I guess my point in comparing the two experiences (Acela First and Lake Shore) is that on the Acela, where Amtrak sees itself competing directly with airlines for a substantial number of riders, meal service clearly is held to a higher standard in service and presentation, even for relatively short trips. In contrast, the current leadership at Amtrak seems to view the ridership on the eastern long-distance trains as more of a captive audience -- and a comparatively limited pool of potential riders on a high-cost service. They seem much less concerned, if they are concerned at all, about offending this group with lousy food or poor service.


I think you're right. As I said - while I don't think it's killing the train as enough seem to have my take on it to have enough people in the sleepers there certainly are people that are staying away over the issue as this thread demonstrates. For the sake of those who would like to ride in the east but are staying away over the food I certainly hope they change something. I actually have liked a couple of the flex meals taste wise - I think the beef short ribs meal is decent for example but the presentation is bad they often don't look good they have that TV Dinner look. Usually I find they taste better than they look but for many I'm sure that initial cringy presentation is going to turn their stomachs. I think with some of the alterations that they've made since they first introduced "contemporary fresh dining" with the cold meals has brought it to a point where it's "good enough" for a portion of riders but certainly they can and should do better even if its not fully taking the approach from out west. I think changes will come eventually but we'll just have to see where they go when they finally do.


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## zephyr17

I don't avoid the eastern trains because of the food, but I do avoid trains because of a combination of food and service level.

Last year I rode the Lake Shore both ways. I was able to use the "sleeper lounge" Viewliner II dining car as both a lounge and a diner. The food was edible, although westbound I brought good salad along from the Metropolitan Lounge had that instead of the sad one provided with flex. I skipped breakfast in favor of Lou Mitchell's. The worst thing about the trip was the windows, which were filthy to the point you could not see out of them if there was any sun on them at all.

Based on reports here, I will actively avoid the Eagle, Cardinal, and Crescent because they are so short staffed that they cannot provide service and in some cases pretty much restrict you to your room. I won't tolerate that.

I will ride the Lake Shore again in November. This time I plan on bringing along a small bottle of Windex and some paper towels and intend on cleaning the window at Penn Station if it is on the platform side.


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## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> I don't avoid the eastern trains because of the food, but I do avoid trains because of a combination of food and service level.
> 
> Last year I rode the Lake Shore both ways. I was able to use the "sleeper lounge" Viewliner II dining car as both a lounge and a diner. The food was edible, although westbound I brought good salad along from the Metropolitan Lounge had that instead of the sad one provided with flex. I skipped breakfast in favor of Lou Mitchell's. The worst thing about the trip was the windows, which were filthy to the point you could not see out of them if there was any sun on them at all.
> 
> Based on reports here, I will actively avoid the Eagle, Cardinal, and Crescent because they are so short staffed that they cannot provide service and in some cases pretty much restrict you to your room. I won't tolerate that.
> 
> I will ride the Lake Shore again in November. This time I plan on bringing along a small bottle of Windex and some paper towels and intend on cleaning the window at Penn Station if it is on the platform side.


Based on recent reports it looks like the "Suits" are starting to spread the Eaglette/Cap "Treatment" to other LD Trains, especially the 2 Nighters in the West!

Be interesting to see if Traditional Dining returns to the Silver Meteor when/if it resumes Service and if more Sightseer Lounges disappear into the Black Hole along with the Bag Cars, Diners,Missing Sleepers and Transdorms.


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## fdaley

zephyr17 said:


> I don't avoid the eastern trains because of the food, but I do avoid trains because of a combination of food and service level.
> 
> Last year I rode the Lake Shore both ways. I was able to use the "sleeper lounge" Viewliner II dining car as both a lounge and a diner. The food was edible, although westbound I brought good salad along from the Metropolitan Lounge had that instead of the sad one provided with flex. I skipped breakfast in favor of Lou Mitchell's. The worst thing about the trip was the windows, which were filthy to the point you could not see out of them if there was any sun on them at all.
> 
> Based on reports here, I will actively avoid the Eagle, Cardinal, and Crescent because they are so short staffed that they cannot provide service and in some cases pretty much restrict you to your room. I won't tolerate that.
> 
> I will ride the Lake Shore again in November. This time I plan on bringing along a small bottle of Windex and some paper towels and intend on cleaning the window at Penn Station if it is on the platform side.


What they've done to the Crescent and the Eagle is just a travesty. The Lake Shore is less bad by virtue of having two food/lounge cars for the bulk of its run, but it's still not providing a level of service I'd want to recommend to anyone -- or that I have any desire to ride myself for any trip of more than a few hours.

I did see reference on another thread here to the Chief running without its Sightseer Lounge. Was that a one-time problem, or has it become a regular occurrence?


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## Manny T

fdaley said:


> I don't think I am the only veteran rider who's staying away or choosing the train less often because of the loss of dining service.


Correct, you can add me. There is an antiques fair in Syracuse one weekend in November and from CHI that would be an overnight on the LSL, arriving in SYR around noon the next day. Great, I could spend the weekend and return Monday. Roomette RT, about $1,000; Bedroom RT about $2000. Including two unsatisfactory breakfasts. I think I'll pass. This is a totally discretionary trip that might be fun with decent dining car experiences, not to mention reasonable sleeping accommodation pricing. But this is not on offer at present, unfortunately, imho.


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## joelkfla

fdaley said:


> What they've done to the Crescent and the Eagle is just a travesty. The Lake Shore is less bad by virtue of having two food/lounge cars for the bulk of its run, but it's still not providing a level of service I'd want to recommend to anyone -- or that I have any desire to ride myself for any trip of more than a few hours.
> 
> I did see reference on another thread here to the Chief running without its Sightseer Lounge. Was that a one-time problem, or has it become a regular occurrence?


SWC's & CZ's that I could find on the tracks at this time all have SSL's.


----------



## fdaley

Manny T said:


> Correct, you can add me. There is an antiques fair in Syracuse one weekend in November and from CHI that would be an overnight on the LSL, arriving in SYR around noon the next day. Great, I could spend the weekend and return Monday. Roomette RT, about $1,000; Bedroom RT about $2000. Including two unsatisfactory breakfasts. I think I'll pass. This is a totally discretionary trip that might be fun with decent dining car experiences, not to mention reasonable sleeping accommodation pricing. But this is not on offer at present, unfortunately, imho.


This is the problem as I see it: A lot of long-distance train travel ultimately is discretionary. If people see the on-board experience as lacking, particularly when weighed against the price, then a chunk of that travel just goes away. 

I used to look for excuses to take one-night trips in the east. But now, even for trips where I really want or need to get to Point B, I find I am considering other options -- or just staying home -- rather than choosing the train, which would have seemed the obvious choice in years past. 

So even if lots of people are still riding, I suspect flex dining is costing Amtrak revenue -- perhaps even enough to offset the "savings" achieved from downgrading the food service in the first place.


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## beatles78

river said:


> I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).
> 
> We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.
> 
> On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.
> 
> Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
> Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
> For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.
> 
> That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.
> 
> I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?


OMG this scares me - as we are departing on the CONO a week from today - our train leaves at 8:05pm. I hope your experience was the exception, not the rule!


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## beatles78

Hi all! So I am traveling on CONO a week from today and I have a bedroom. Am allowed to bring a bottle of wine (and a 6 pack of beer maybe?) in my carry on to be consumed in my room (only)? That is what it appears I'm hearing on message boards I checked. Is it limited to bottles or can I bring cans of wine? 

Thanks in advance!
Stephanie


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## Bob Dylan

beatles78 said:


> Hi all! So I am traveling on CONO a week from today and I have a bedroom. Am allowed to bring a bottle of wine (and a 6 pack of beer maybe?) in my carry on to be consumed in my room (only)? That is what it appears I'm hearing on message boards I checked. Is it limited to bottles or can I bring cans of wine?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Stephanie


You're allowed to bring Adult Beverages of your choice aboard, but they must be consumed in the privacy of your Room.


----------



## tricia

beatles78 said:


> Hi all! So I am traveling on CONO a week from today and I have a bedroom. Am allowed to bring a bottle of wine (and a 6 pack of beer maybe?) in my carry on to be consumed in my room (only)? That is what it appears I'm hearing on message boards I checked. Is it limited to bottles or can I bring cans of wine?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Stephanie


You may consume your choice of any beverage when you're in your bedroom or roomette, but only there. Elsewhere on the train, the only alcoholic beverages allowed are those sold in the train's cafe or dining car.


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## TheCrescent

Why can’t Amtrak have menus onboard and/or online that match what you’re served?

For example, the Flexible Dining menu on the Crescent (both onboard and online) is not accurate. 

When you order a meal on the Crescent, you may not be served what you ordered; you may get a completely different dish. 

It’s not that big of a deal- it’s all TV dinners- but how hard is it to have a current menu onboard?


----------



## MARC Rider

On my third Acela FC trip in 3 weeks last July/,August, we were given a menu with some new dishes. I thought that was great, as I had eaten everything on the menu. Alas, the had accidentally given us an old Menu from the previous quarter. They quickly have us the current menu, and we just had to repeat a few entrees.


----------



## TheCrescent

MARC Rider said:


> On my third Acela FC trip in 3 weeks last July/,August, we were given a menu with some new dishes. I thought that was great, as I had eaten everything on the menu. Alas, the had accidentally given us an old Menu from the previous quarter. They quickly have us the current menu, and we just had to repeat a few entrees.


It sounds like you weren’t upset and I wouldn’t be upset either.

On the Crescent, the menu has been wrong for at least a month (I’ve taken several trips) and when I ordered an entree and was given something else, I didn’t make an issue; I just asked if I had been given the right meal and said it was fine in any event. 

The staff came back to my room and wanted to argue about it, telling me that I was wrong and that the meat entree was what I ordered and the meat entree was what I received, so I was wrong, even though what was listed on the menu was not what I received. 

I refused to have that conversation.


----------



## zephyr17

TheCrescent said:


> Why can’t Amtrak have menus onboard and/or online that match what you’re served?
> 
> For example, the Flexible Dining menu on the Crescent (both onboard and online) is not accurate.
> 
> When you order a meal on the Crescent, you may not be served what you ordered; you may get a completely different dish.
> 
> It’s not that big of a deal- it’s all TV dinners- but how hard is it to have a current menu onboard?


Well, clearly they could. Their not being able to is another instance of Amtrak management's utter inability to plan.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

TheCrescent said:


> It sounds like you weren’t upset and I wouldn’t be upset either.
> 
> On the Crescent, the menu has been wrong for at least a month (I’ve taken several trips) and when I ordered an entree and was given something else, I didn’t make an issue; I just asked if I had been given the right meal and said it was fine in any event.
> 
> The staff came back to my room and wanted to argue about it, telling me that I was wrong and that the meat entree was what I ordered and the meat entree was what I received, so I was wrong, even though what was listed on the menu was not what I received.
> 
> I refused to have that conversation.


I hope you report such boorish behavior to Amtrak. The idea of staff following you to your room to attempt an argument is wrong and a bit scary!


----------



## TheCrescent

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I hope you report such boorish behavior to Amtrak. The idea of staff following you to your room to attempt an argument is wrong and a bit scary!


No, I am not going to report it. I said repeatedly that I was fine and didn’t need anything, but the attendant did come to my room-twice-to tell me that I wasn’t correct and to explain why. The staff member seemed irritated and wanted to win the discussion but I refused to engage.

I think that the staff was trying to be helpful, despite how it was handled.

@Trollopian where can you buy wine at Union Station? I’d like to try that.


----------



## Trollopian

TheCrescent said:


> @Trollopian where can you buy wine at Union Station? I’d like to try that.



Alas, Crescent, I've led you down the path of intemperance to disappointment. The very useful liquor store that was formerly in the food court at Union Station closed nearly a year ago. (I frankly hadn't noticed because I've been buying my tipple in my neighborhood store.) Too bad. It was never very upscale, but so what? Best bets now require a short detour. Kogod's and Schneider's, at 441 New Jersey Ave NW and 300 Massachusetts Ave NE, are both 0.4 miles away. An easy walk but admittedly less convenient. Even the coffee drinkers are affected by Union Station's retail woes (see separate AU thread on Starbucks closure). Sorry.


----------



## Rambling Robert

At a dinner party of six we had Tucson Tamales with everyone giving them Thumbs up. I’ll compare them to the Amtrak tamale on my next trip BOS LAX on the Crescent in a few weeks. (Return on SSC and dreaded LSL). I’m planning not to eat much on the train as my smalll protest not allowing Coach to fill empty seating in the dining car. This would increase revenues and maybe lower sleeper car cost

While at NYP MTH I was told I could purchase a day pass for the Metropolitan Lounge for 1500 AGR points but Amtrak reservations at AGR said NO but to buy a day pass - day of with tix - at the Amtrak counter at MTH.


----------



## zephyr17

Rambling Robert said:


> Return on SSC and dreaded LSL


I don't dread the LSL, based on my round trip experience on it last November. It was an okay ride, and I enjoyed being able to use the Viewliner diner as a lounge even if the food sucked. I'll be on it again this November, don't particularly look forward to it, but don't dread it. Except for the food and the filthy windows, it was a fairly good ride.

I would dread the Crescent under current circumstances, though.


----------



## Rambling Robert

What are the current circumstances?


----------



## Rasputin

I will join Rambling Robert in dreading the Lake Shore, esp. the Boston section, except for the scenery which can be very good. 

To me the Boston section of the Lake Shore is akin to a gauntlet or a penance through which you must pass in order to reach the much more enjoyable western trains.


----------



## Rambling Robert

zephyr17 said:


> I don't dread the LSL, based on my round trip experience on it last November. It was an okay ride, and I enjoyed being able to use the Viewliner diner as a lounge even if the food sucked. I'll be on it again this November, don't particularly look forward to it, but don't dread it. Except for the food and the filthy windows, it was a fairly good ride.
> 
> I would dread the Crescent under current circumstances, though.


I read the advisory and will be notified


----------



## zephyr17

Rambling Robert said:


> What are the current circumstances?


No diner. All meal service out of the cafe by one LSA. Closed to coach passengers at meal time. Reports at least some crews requiring you to eat in your room. You must order something to sit in the cafe outside sleeper meal times, and reportedly some crews do not even allow that.

Sounds more like a rolling prison than a relaxing train ride and I will not tolerate that kind of service and treatment. The Crescent is on my Do Not Ride list along with the Eaglette.

I found the LSL to be reasonably enjoyable, but I was on the New York section and had the Viewliner diner ("sleeper lounge") the whole way and the crew were fine about using it as a lounge.


----------



## Rambling Robert

Sounds like on the Crescent slleeper becomes second glass and Coach is “untouchable class”. So I’ll be untouchable for the trip. I’ve planned to bring my own food.


----------



## lordsigma

I don’t have much of a problem with the Boston lake shore. While it’s a short consist it’s got great scenery and it’s basically an afternoon/evening train most of the time if it’s not super late coming east. Lately I’ve found it more cost effective to ride coach to Albany and then switch to sleeper.


----------



## daybeers

fdaley said:


> So even if lots of people are still riding, I suspect flex dining is costing Amtrak revenue -- perhaps even enough to offset the "savings" achieved from downgrading the food service in the first place.


Isn't that the point, to show the LD trains are losing even more money?


----------



## fdaley

daybeers said:


> Isn't that the point, to show the LD trains are losing even more money?


I suspect that's a function of bad decisions rather than part of a conspiracy to kill the LD trains. But certainly I feel that the current Amtrak leadership at best does not much care about the people who ride these trains or what impression it's making with them.


----------



## fdaley

zephyr17 said:


> Except for the food and the filthy windows, it was a fairly good ride.


OMG, I can see the new marketing campaign: Ride the Lake Shore. The food's lousy and the windows are dirty, but hey, it's nicer than our new "rolling prison" service on the Crescent and Eagle. 

Lordsigma will tell us to have patience, and I do realize we are still suffering the aftermath of the pandemic and all of its economic disruptions. I want to believe things will get better. I wish I had just a bit more confidence that they really will.


----------



## zephyr17

fdaley said:


> I suspect that's a function of bad decisions rather than part of a conspiracy to kill the LD trains. But certainly I feel that the current Amtrak leadership at best does not much care about the people who ride these trains or what impression it's making with them.


I made a comment citing Hanlon's Razor a couple days ago, not ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

My own opinion is not only Amtrak management does not care, in keeping with Hanlon's Razor, they also appear unable to find their butt with both hands.

Case in point, they recently announced withdrawals of baggage service on the CZ and SW Chief on random departures, withdrew that statement, replaced it with the withdrawal of baggage service on the Carolinian and Pennsylvanian. All while running baggage cars as axle count cars on trains in Illinois that never had baggage service.

Yep, that there's some smarts at work, all right.


----------



## TheCrescent

zephyr17 said:


> No diner. All meal service out of the cafe by one LSA. Closed to coach passengers at meal time. Reports at least some crews requiring you to eat in your room. You must order something to sit in the cafe outside sleeper meal times, and reportedly some crews do not even allow that.
> 
> Sounds more like a rolling prison than a relaxing train ride and I will not tolerate that kind of service and treatment. The Crescent is on my Do Not Ride list along with the Eaglette.
> 
> I found the LSL to be reasonably enjoyable, but I was on the New York section and had the Viewliner diner ("sleeper lounge") the whole way and the crew were fine about using it as a lounge.


This is correct re: the Crescent.

On my last trip, in between being yelled at by a sleeping car attendant at the start and end of my trip, I walked to the cafe car once. All of the tables were taken up by on-board staff.

Why do passengers have to stay in their rooms and can’t stay in the cafe car, but staff members (who I think have newer sleeping car rooms than passengers) can both use their rooms and stay in the cafe car, too?


----------



## Rambling Robert

The dreaded LSL isn’t THAT bad. But in 2019 going eastbound on the LSA I had my first dose of the original Flex meal. It was terrible and the LSA was busy - in a bad mood and I tossed it. I hate to waste food.

And YES Amtrak staff dominated the Cafe Car tables. It’s odd to see people on break other than a break room. It is what it is. Sometimes there are signs up / reserved for staff. But I can’t think of another place we’re the customer is in the employee break room. kinda weird.

I’m looking forward to the Crescent. In two weeks - haha.


----------



## dlagrua

daybeers said:


> Isn't that the point, to show the LD trains are losing even more money?


Most of the LD trains that I have been on were sold out or being close to sold out. The LD trains lose money on paper due to faulty Amtrak accounting. The LD trains are charged a sum of the total expense of running all routes including facilities labor and track work. Say you ride the SWC. That route is charged a portion of the expenses to run CUS, LAUS and all expenses to run even the NEC, WAS and NYP stations. If the SWC cost of running and maintenance was considered separately as a single route only then they may even be profitable.


----------



## dlerach

dlagrua said:


> Most of the LD trains that I have been on were sold out or being close to sold out. The LD trains lose money on paper due to faulty Amtrak accounting. The LD trains are charged a sum of the total expense of running all routes including facilities labor and track work. Say you ride the SWC. That route is charged a portion of the expenses to run CUS, LAUS and all expenses to run even the NEC, WAS and NYP stations. If the SWC cost of running and maintenance was considered separately as a single route only then they may even be profitable.


If you consider the Southwest Chief separately from the rest of Amtrak's network though, aren't you enjoying a sort of double-dip? BNSF pays to maintain the Transcon. How could the Southwest Chief ever be profitable if it had to pay its share of infrastructure over its route? Would it even be able to pay for the maintenance of the Raton line?


----------



## zephyr17

The discussion comes down to classic above-the-rail costs of an individual train versus below the rail versus global costs.

Above the rail costs are costs directly associated with the trains operation. Fuel, staffing, supply cost and the like. Below the rail includes some allocation for rail maintenance on the line, terminal costs that are not directly allocated (in the old days, many terminal railroads had a direct charge for handling a train and towards the end, some railroads ran into freight yards to avoid them, notably UP at Kansas City). Global costs allocate portions of the entire administrative apparatus to each train.

Amtrak's accounting is hopelessly opaque on the issue.

It can be argued that at least some of Amtrak's long distance services break even or are profitable on a pure above-the-rail basis.

One of the problems is that the closest measures Amtrak has to above the rail include trackage use costs from the host railroads. Those same measures exclude the very much higher ROW maintenance expenses for NEC trains. So you really cannot compare the two, since they are not equivalent. Track access is a superb deal when Amtrak runs on host rails, due the the statutory avoidable cost basis of Amtrak's rights.

The NEC trains would likely show unprofitable if track maintenance were allocated to the trains like the much lower host rail access costs are allocated to the LDs.

Amtrak's accounting methods simply preclude reasonable apples to apples comparison. Intentionally so, IMHO.

Finally, per Fred Frailey's superb Twilight of the Great Trains, most railroads kept a set of books that tracked pure above the rail expenses, notably Espee. It turns out that even the notoriously anti-passenger Espee typically did not move to discontinue trains until their pure above the rail costs dropped below break even. Then they presented much worse looking figures that included below the rail costs to the ICC to bolster their discontinuance petitions.


----------



## Asher

Trollopian said:


> Alas, Crescent, I've led you down the path of intemperance to disappointment. The very useful liquor store that was formerly in the food court at Union Station closed nearly a year ago. (I frankly hadn't noticed because I've been buying my tipple in my neighborhood store.) Too bad. It was never very upscale, but so what? Best bets now require a short detour. Kogod's and Schneider's, at 441 New Jersey Ave NW and 300 Massachusetts Ave NE, are both 0.4 miles away. An easy walk but admittedly less convenient. Even the coffee drinkers are affected by Union Station's retail woes (see separate AU thread on Starbucks closure). Sorry.



Well, some unscrupulous individuals probably tried to smuggle wine into coach on the South bound. One can only imagine the commotion that would cause. Plus, instant shutdown.


----------



## Winecliff Station

anumberone said:


> Well, some unscrupulous individuals probably tried to smuggle wine into coach on the South bound. One can only imagine the commotion that would cause. Plus, instant shutdown.



I think if that were true, every liquor store in Penn Station/Moynihan Hall would be closed as well….BYO is standard on Empire trains.


----------



## Ispolkom

I'm traveling from DC to Savannah in December. Assuming that the Silver Meteor is running, it's scheduled to leave Washington DC at 7:24 pm and Savannah at 7:45 pm. Is that too late to get supper on board, and what might that meal look like? Or is that too long in the future to prognosticate?


----------



## jis

You will get supper on both unless running ridiculously late of course.


----------



## Dakota 400

Ispolkom said:


> I'm traveling from DC to Savannah in December. Assuming that the Silver Meteor is running, it's scheduled to leave Washington DC at 7:24 pm and Savannah at 7:45 pm. Is that too late to get supper on board, and what might that meal look like? Or is that too long in the future to prognosticate?



I am fairly certain that dinner will be available when you leave Washington; that is when I was able to be seated when I traveled on the Silver Meteor after boarding in Washington. Do not know about Savannah, though.


----------



## JWM

Sidney said:


> On the Eagle last month there was one sitting. 5PM. Lunch was at 12PM. The lounge/cafe car was closed to Coach passengers from 11 to1 and 4 to 6.
> 
> There is nothing appealing about flex dining The term "flexible" I thought meant you could eat when you wanted. Everytime I had flex I was assigned a certain time.


Sidney, 5pm is the start of my cocktail hour not dinner.


----------



## JWM

At the risk of being accused of posting the same comment once again, I'll chance it. Get full dining car service back on the LSL, CL, Cardinal, Silver Meteor & Star, Crescent and Texas Eagle. "Flexible Dining" is neither "Flexible" or "Dining".


----------



## Ispolkom

Dakota 400 said:


> I am fairly certain that dinner will be available when you leave Washington; that is when I was able to be seated when I traveled on the Silver Meteor after boarding in Washington. Do not know about Savannah, though.


Thanks for the data point. It seems that 7:30 isn't too late, but what do I know?


----------



## ascii42

Ispolkom said:


> Thanks for the data point. It seems that 7:30 isn't too late, but what do I know?


Per Amtrak's website, Flexible dining ends at 9:30 (board by 8:30).








Amtrak Flexible Dining







www.amtrak.com




So you've got 66 minute buffer in Washington and a 45 minute buffer in Savannah.


----------



## Sidney

JWM said:


> Sidney, 5pm is the start of my cocktail hour not dinner.


Not on the Eagle. Begin the cocktail hour at 3. Flexible,as eating anytime you wish,is only at 5PM.


----------



## Rasputin

Ispolkom said:


> I'm traveling from DC to Savannah in December. Assuming that the Silver Meteor is running, it's scheduled to leave Washington DC at 7:24 pm and Savannah at 7:45 pm. Is that too late to get supper on board, and what might that meal look like? Or is that too long in the future to prognosticat


Unless traditional dining is suddenly restored by December, I would be very tempted to have a nice dinner at one of the many fine places in DC before boarding the train.


----------



## Lonnie

Rasputin said:


> I will join Rambling Robert in dreading the Lake Shore, esp. the Boston section, except for the scenery which can be very good.
> 
> To me the Boston section of the Lake Shore is akin to a gauntlet or a penance through which you must pass in order to reach the much more enjoyable western trains.


I've ridden the LSL several times, years ago Syracuse to Boston, and lately Springfield to Chicago. Whether in coach or roomette, I've found the ride enjoyable, particularly through the Berkshires. Since I would never take Amtrak to actually be somewhere on time, I don't mind the slow pace. After going through "the noses" next to the Mohawk River, a lot of it is just a pleasant reminder of why I moved out of Syracuse. Flex dining is pretty bad, but it's food, more than what a lot of people are getting today. And I've got my "defensive eating" bag of yummy snacks and that little bottle of Maker's Mark.


----------



## Steve4031

I've learned to tolerate flex dining. I eat the pasta dish for dinner and pay for a hamburger or hot dog at lunch. Breakfast is tolerable too. I can work with it on the eat coast trains. I will not tolerate it on the Texas Eagle. That train has a diner on it. Amtrak could find the people to staff it. Same for the CONOL.


----------



## Sidney

Steve4031 said:


> I've learned to tolerate flex dining. I eat the pasta dish for dinner and pay for a hamburger or hot dog at lunch. Breakfast is tolerable too. I can work with it on the eat coast trains. I will not tolerate it on the Texas Eagle. That train has a diner on it. Amtrak could find the people to staff it. Same for the CONOL.


If you want food from the cafe car on the trains with flex dining you should be able to get it without having to pay for it. if you are on from Chicago to Florida,that's a long haul with nothing but reheated TV dinners. One flex meal a day is enough. For breakfast I'll go with the cereal and the improved breakfast sandwich.


----------



## zephyr17

Steve4031 said:


> I've learned to tolerate flex dining. I eat the pasta dish for dinner and pay for a hamburger or hot dog at lunch. Breakfast is tolerable too. I can work with it on the eat coast trains. I will not tolerate it on the Texas Eagle. That train has a diner on it. Amtrak could find the people to staff it. Same for the CONOL.


The Lake Shore, Silvers, Capitol and CONO all have diners, too. Equipment seems to have little to do with the decision to offer flex.

Unfortunately, the Crescent lost its diner somewhere during the current mess.


----------



## Gp30sieb

On the LSL I just finished a yummy (not) lunch of pasta the consistency of lumpy mashed potatoes. Last evening in the Chicago Metropolitan Lounge people thought I was nuts when they announced that since the LSL leaves so late they did not serve dinner and I cheered.


----------



## lordsigma

Steve4031 said:


> I've learned to tolerate flex dining. I eat the pasta dish for dinner and pay for a hamburger or hot dog at lunch. Breakfast is tolerable too. I can work with it on the eat coast trains. I will not tolerate it on the Texas Eagle. That train has a diner on it. Amtrak could find the people to staff it. Same for the CONOL.


Hasn't the CONO had mediocre food for ages? I didn't think that one had full traditional dining with a chef before "flexible dining" came about.

This is the company being used for the current temporary meals on the CONO. The reason for the shift is because these meals are meant for microwave preparation which is all that's available in the SSL cafe. The "New Horizons industries" flex meals served on the other trains are meant to be reheated in a regular or convection oven to get the proper result (yes I realize some LSAs heat them in a microwave but technically they aren't supposed to):









Home - Torn Apron Foods


Torn Apron Foods | Home - Chef Created. Foodie Approved.




www.tornapronfoods.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> Hasn't the CONO had mediocre food for ages? I didn't think that one had full traditional dining with a chef before "flexible dining" came about.
> 
> This is the company being used for the current temporary meals on the CONO. The reason for the shift is because these meals are meant for microwave preparation which is all that's available in the SSL cafe. The "New Horizons industries" flex meals served on the other trains are meant to be reheated in a regular or convection oven to get the proper result (yes I realize some LSAs heat them in a microwave but technically they aren't supposed to):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home - Torn Apron Foods
> 
> 
> Torn Apron Foods | Home - Chef Created. Foodie Approved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tornapronfoods.com


The Downstairs in the CCC ( which the CONO has)is a fully equipped Kitchen just like the ones in the Superliner Diners.

Since the SSL is not Staffed, and only being used as an Axle Count Car on the CONO, the Convection Oven in the CCC should be used to heat the Flex Meals, NOT a Microwave!


----------



## lordsigma

Bob Dylan said:


> The Downstairs in the CCC ( which the CONO has)is a fully equipped Kitchen just like the ones in the Superliner Diners.
> 
> Since the SSL is not Staffed, and only being used as an Axle Count Car on the CONO, the Convection Oven in the CCC should be used to heat the Flex Meals, NOT a Microwave!


The CCC car was pulled from the CONO it's only operating with the SSL staffed at the moment. Reason cited was a shortage of SL dining cars. They are serving this menu:



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf



Those dinner entrees are Torn Apron meals.


----------



## jiml

lordsigma said:


> The CCC car was pulled from the CONO it's only operating with the SSL staffed at the moment. Reason cited was a shortage of SL dining cars. They are serving this menu:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Those dinner entrees are Torn Apron meals.


Does this make it the only "flex" train where lunch isn't the same as dinner?


----------



## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> Hasn't the CONO had mediocre food for ages? I didn't think that one had full traditional dining with a chef before "flexible dining" came about.


I don't believe the CONO has had traditional dining for some time. It seems to have had a rather limited menu for some time. When I last rode it in May 2019 it had car 37014 as a food service car but I don't recall the configuration of that car. The dinner entree that I had (beef stroganoff as I recall) was the same entree that I had had for dinner a year or two before in the cafe car of the Boston section of the eastbound Lake Shore (before the Lake Shore got contemporary or flex dining).

The beef stroganoff entree was not great but was acceptable. The breakfast sandwich the next morning on the CONO was a bit soggy but very tasty. I know from other comments on this site that some did not like it at all.

While the CONO food left much to be desired we found it preferable to the contemporary dining entrees on the Lake Shore a couple days later. 

Of course neither the CONO nor the Lake Shore could hold a candle on that trip to the wonderful food prepared by the chef in one of the new dining cars on the Crescent during the first part of the trip. A nice memory but I guess we won't be re-living that anytime soon if ever.


----------



## lordsigma

jiml said:


> Does this make it the only "flex" train where lunch isn't the same as dinner?



It’s a temporary setup due to the shortage supposedly it’s supposed to get the normal flex deal back when they can get a diner or CCC back on it. You get cafe car item selections for breakfast/lunch and they have those torn apron meals for dinner. It sounds like it’s basically run as a normal SSL cafe car with these extra dinner meals for the sleeper passengers.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> The CCC car was pulled from the CONO it's only operating with the SSL staffed at the moment. Reason cited was a shortage of SL dining cars. They are serving this menu:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Menu-0822.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Those dinner entrees are Torn Apron meals.


Thanks for the Update, it's even Worse than before!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> Thanks for the Update, it's even Worse than before!


Is it? I’d take an entree Greek salad or turkey sandwich over anything I’ve had off the flex menu.


----------



## Steve4031

I like the lunch menu for the hot dog and the other sandwiches. This would be an improvement over the same flex menu items for lunch and dinner.


----------



## kangforpres

If and when Amtrak "Staffs up" with new hires will traditional dining cars ever come back to long distance Eastern trains? Or is Flex dining here to stay and all you can hope for is better quality and selection.


----------



## zephyr17

kangforpres said:


> If and when Amtrak "Staffs up" with new hires will traditional dining cars ever come back to long distance Eastern trains? Or is Flex dining here to stay and all you can hope for is better quality and selection.


Nobody knows. There is a committee at Amtrak on food services improvements that the RPA has a seat on is about the most definite piece of information out there.

Rumor has it that some improvement, perhaps a somewhat less elaborate version of traditional dining, may return to the Silvers in the fairly near future. But there is certainly nothing definite announced. Also, a plan to gut the galleys in the Viewliner II diners and replace them with banks of convection ovens has been halted, which is a good development, as that would have made flex or an equivalent, permanent and irreversible.


----------



## lordsigma

Am on 52. Had the steak. Food in the diner tonight was excellent.


----------



## lordsigma

New addition on the auto train for the breakfast for me they now offer breakfast sandwiches as part of the continental breakfast.


----------



## Palmland

Yes, on our AutoTrain trip last Wednesday our breakfast was improved from the cold roll, pastry and fruit we had in May. I was disappointed the attendant in the sleeper lounge is still MIA but probably understandable. They served few passengers and it’s not too difficult to walk a few cars to the coach lounge/cafe. It was also nice that our excellent SCA, Debbie, brought us a snack pack around noon since we were several hours late.

We had left a couple hours late but our late dinner was served efficiently by a friendly server. I particularly liked that she came around to give us a refill on wine! Although I thought it was good, my wife did not care for the sauce on the flat iron. Good to see that ice cream was available.

We keep in contact with our outstanding server, Ernest, we had on another trip. He met us on arrival at Lorton to say hi. Good customer service goes a long way.


----------



## lordsigma

In an article for trains magazine for the December edition they did an article about Amtrak’s capacity issues. They interviewed Harris about it and food came up. He directly mentioned the return of improved food service to the Meteor and Star using some of what’s working out west. They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor. After they get whatever the new setup is going on the silvers they plan to look at options for the other eastern trains and the CONO and Eagle.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor.


No, nobody was able to run the numbers in advance on that decision, right? And of course, they didn't terminate the eastern chefs (not furloughed subject to recall, but fired) based on them.

Of course, the decision was not based on cost metrics in any case, according to the rationale released at the time. It was a service improvement since "the millennials" didn't like community seating and set meal periods. Apparently their market research revealed "the millennials" wanted plastic food they could eat in set meal periods, since the flex part of flex never happened. Most millennials I know would run screaming at the sight of these fat and sodium bombs.

Nope, nobody looked at costs, uh-unh. Didn't happen. So they could not have gotten the original cost analysis wrong.

Amtrak executive management continues to impress me. Although it does seem maybe having finally realized they were in a hole they dug themselves with a steam shovel, they just may have quit digging. Maybe we'll see some form of traditional dining in the east about the same time as they get the maintenance backlog back on the road. Just imagine, being able to trust that your confirmed sleeping car accommodation won't be yanked out from under and being able to eat actual food on the same trip. That'll be a fine day, assuming I live to see it.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> No, nobody was able to run the numbers in advance on that decision, right?
> 
> Of course, the decision was not based on cost metrics in any case, according to the rationale released at the time. It was a service improvement since "the millennials" didn't like community seating and set meal periods. Apparently their market research revealed "the millennials" wanted plastic food they could eat in set meal periods, since the flex part of flex never happened. Most millennials I know would run screaming at the sight of these fat and sodium bombs.
> 
> Nope, nobody looked at costs, uh-unh. Didn't happen. So they could not have gotten the original cost analysis wrong.
> 
> Amtrak executive management continues to impress me.


Flex was surely a bone headed decision but I’ll give credit if they follow through and put something better in place though. While Amtrak has a lot of problems one thing I do have to give some credit for is the quality of meals for traditional dining since they brought it back. The Auto Train food has also improved. Both exceed the quality of pre pandemic and the flowers on the table and metal flatware is a nice touch. Hopefully someday the China will make an appearance.


----------



## MARC Rider

lordsigma said:


> . . . apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor. After they get whatever the new setup is going on the silvers they plan to look at options for the other eastern trains and the CONO and Eagle.


If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.


----------



## lordsigma

MARC Rider said:


> If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.


Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.


----------



## zephyr17

MARC Rider said:


> If this is the case, then why are they not prioritizing improved food service on the Eagle, as its scheduled travel time is more than that of the Silvers.





lordsigma said:


> Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.


If that is the case, why did they pull it from the Silvers at all? As to ridership, while there is more general demand on the Silvers, the Eaglettes ridership is being artificially limited by the equipment shortages. And why should they not get all Sightseers, at least those not wreck damaged, back on the road? Is it some kind of policy to force sleeper passengers to eat plastic food confined in their rooms? I seem to recall the Sightseers were actually withdrawn from the Eagle prior to the Builder and SW Chief wrecks in any case.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> Flex was surely a bone headed decision but I’ll give credit if they follow through and put something better in place though. While Amtrak has a lot of problems one thing I do have to give some credit for is the quality of meals for traditional dining since they brought it back. The Auto Train food has also improved. Both exceed the quality of pre pandemic and the flowers on the table and metal flatware is a nice touch. Hopefully someday the China will make an appearance.


Have to agree there, the current iteration of traditional dining is the best it has been in some years. Prior to COVID It had been going downhill since at least the implementation of SDS.

I don't really care about china, but I would like some variation between trains as they used to have or some sort of rotating menu. The same menu for days straight gets old.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> Probably ridership. He also cited ridership volume along with the long runtime when mentioning the reasoning for silvers. Those trains are also already running with a dining car and separate lounge so they are ready to go from an operational standpoint. The eagle would likely require getting sightseer lounges out of storage most likely which would be a capital overhaul decision. I suppose they could theoretically run it and the cafe out of the single dining car but they’d probably want to get a lounge car back in place if they’re going to go back to traditional meals.


Since the Eaglette runs with a CCC, which can serve as a Diner with a Full downstairs Kitchen, and as a Cafe in what has come to known as the Crews Lounge on the short end of the Car, No need to wait on a Sightseer Lounge to go back to Traditional Dining much as the 31+ Hour Train Cries out for one!


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## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> Cafe in what has come to known as the Crews Lounge on the short end of the Car


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## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> If that is the case, why did they pull it from the Silvers at all? As to ridership, while there is more general demand on the Silvers, the Eaglettes ridership is being artificially limited by the equipment shortages.



In FY19, Eagle ridership was 91% of the Meteor's.


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## jis

To be more meaningful comparison one needs to look at riders per mile or something like that.

As an extreme example a single car running 10,000 miles provides the same number of seat miles as 10 cars traveling 1000 miles.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> To be more meaningful comparison one needs to look at riders per mile or something like that.
> 
> As an extreme example a single car running 10,000 miles provides the same number of seat miles as 10 cars traveling 1000 miles.


Mileage from CHI-SAS is about 100 mi. less than NYP-MIA, so those are also comparable. I don't know whether the Eagle's ridership number includes passengers riding only west of SAS, and if so how much.

But I'm not sure the mileage is really significant in this argument. If you're looking at the number of passengers potentially impacted by Flex vs. Traditional, they only have to be onboard for 1 meal period.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Mileage from CHI-SAS is about 100 mi. less than NYP-MIA, so those are also comparable. I don't know whether the Eagle's ridership number includes passengers riding only west of SAS, and if so how much.
> 
> But I'm not sure the mileage is really significant in this argument. If you're looking at the number of passengers potentially impacted by Flex vs. Traditional, they only have to be onboard for 1 meal period.


Additionally, we don't know who is on board one meal period and who is not, and total number of passengers are not affected by Flex meals anyway, since they don't get even that.  Only Sleeper passengers. I still think the total passenger based analysis is flawed for several reasons. Yes it is a proxy of sorts, but I would not base any decisions on it.


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## JWM

The sooner full dining car service with the setups now being used on the western trains is in place on the Meteor, Star and Crescent the better. Again, any overnight train should have full dining car service. That means the LSL, CL, Cardinal, TE and those mentioned above.


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## lordsigma

Here is a 2019 RPA Comparison that provides a little more detail on statistics. I don't think the Florida services are a terrible choice to start with for dining service - the northeast to Florida is certainly one of Amtrak's biggest long distance travel markets if one includes all 3 trains:

Meteor https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3459/19.pdf
Eagle https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3444/32.pdf


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## west point

Even though day trains I would add next Palmetto and Carolinian.


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## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis.



Think about that explanation for a minute: According to Harris, the flex meals have higher food costs than the traditional meals, which are of vastly superior quality. And so, he says, this extra cost adds up over longer runs with more meal periods, partially negating the labor savings from not having a chef or other staff needed for traditional dining service. Does that really seem credible?

I would think a much bigger issue would be that, particularly over the longest trips, serving flex meals across multiple meal periods is more likely to alienate and drive away the highest value customers. A couple of thousand-dollar sleeper rooms that never sell on any given departure of the Crescent seems like a bigger cash hole to fill than the difference between the food cost of the two kinds of meals.


----------



## jis

For reinstating traditional dining on the Crescent first they have to reinstate the Diner Car on it, which involves moving several VLII Diners from the Mothball Line to the In Service Line, which they apparently don't have any plan for in the next year or two. I hope that plan changes sometime soon.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

lordsigma said:


> They are starting with these trains as they are nearly as long as the coast starlight and apparently the math of food costs for the flexible dining trains makes less sense the longer the train gets as the flex meals have higher food costs on a per meal basis. The more meal periods there are it starts to eat into whatever was saved on labor.


In that case I would think the Lake Shore Limited would be a prime candidate with its 3 sleepers worth of passengers (2 NY and 1 Boston).


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## jis

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> In that case I would think the Lake Shore Limited would be a prime candidate with its 3 sleepers worth of passengers (2 NY and 1 Boston).


It is a much shorter run though with very few meals. 

Historically, when they had shortage of Diners they had dinged the LSL first. These days it seems that role has been transferred to the Crescent, exactly using what logic I fail to see. But then I fail to see any logic in a lot of things that Amtrak does these days, so it may just be my failing in seeing the brilliance.


----------



## lordsigma

It actually does seem credible to me. I can definitely see the economics of when flex dining would save money and am also not surprised to hear that the food costs per passenger are higher. I will admit I read into a bit what he said he didn't use my words exactly - if you look at the trains article you'll see his exact words but it's pretty easy to draw those conclusions based on what he said about flex. I had heard similar things prior that the food costs per passenger are higher and that it makes the most sense when you're serving a smaller amount of meals per trip for a smaller number of passengers. The Star and Meteor both carry more sleeper passengers than the Eagle does - so that alone is a potential explanation of why they are getting it first. Traditional dining is more labor intensive (not just for Amtrak but also their Aramark costs as well as they need people to prepare the sous vide and other precooked items from the raw ingredients in the commissary kitchens - more ordering involved - etc. Flex meals are prepared by that new horizons company so the commissary simply has to order and store those and deliver them to the train. Basically the kitchen is preparing the salads that's about it for flex.) But the more passengers and more meal periods I can see where the math stops working for flex. It has never been my experience that the flexible dining food is excessively poor quality. It's really to me more about the experience for the money paid for a sleeper and of course a plated prepared meal on board is going to be better than any prepackaged meal prepped in some random kitchen on Long Island that's reheated in a plastic container. If prepared properly the flex meals are not excessively bad so long as you don't have dietary sensitivities but the presentation and experience is less than stellar.


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## jis

It has to a large extent been about presentation. Almost similarly prepared meals are served in Domestic First Class on airlines, but they are plated in a more presentable form, heated more competently and uniformly, and presented on credible utensils on trays with table cloth and actual metal silverware. That is all it takes to make it work. But that is somewhat contrary to single minded attempts to get rid of all labor costs.

My hope is that since all the airlines that run First Class service are now improving food quality and service by leaps and bounds, Amtrak will catch on one of these days. Afterall they followed the airlines down into the dumps, so being a wanna be airline, maybe they will crawl back up with them.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> It has to a large extent been about presentation. Almost similarly prepared meals are served in Domestic First Class on airlines, but they are plated in a more presentable form and presented on credible utensils on trays with table cloth and actual metal silverware. That is al it takes to make it work. But that is somewhat contrary to single minded attempts tog et rid of all labor costs.
> 
> My hope is that since all the airlines that run First Class service are now improving food quality and service by leaps and bounds, Amtrak will catch on one of these days. Afterall they followed the airlines down into the dumps, so being a wanna be airline, maybe they will crawl back up with them.


And many of those meals are likely delivered to airlines the same way - the company that makes the plastic containers that the flex meals are sent in is designs containers basically for airline meals. Some airlines likely get meals delivered in those exact same plastic containers but some of them take the time to transfer things over to plates and try to make a decent presentation.


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## jis

I would hasten to add that the fare served in International upper class on airlines is a different kettle of fish altogether, specially where items are brought out one by one and placed within a table setting. Amtrak even in its Diners with traditional meals does not quite rise to that level.


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## lordsigma

I would also add that in reading the article I didn’t necessarily read a commitment that what the Florida trains get will necessary go elsewhere. They seem to commit to improve food service everywhere but I don’t necessarily read there that it would look the same everywhere. We’ll just have to wait and see what they do. It will be quite the full circle for the Star which not too long ago was the starvation.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> I would also add that in reading the article I didn’t necessarily read a commitment that what the Florida trains get will necessary go elsewhere. They seem to commit to improve food service everywhere but I don’t necessarily read there that it would look the same everywhere. We’ll just have to wait and see what they do. It will be quite the full circle for the Star which not too long ago was the starvation.


Specially considering that the lack of a Diner on the Crescent is a conscious choice rather than an imperative driven by old Diners that required major work. The Mothballed Diners do not require anything close to the type of work that the Heritage Diners needed to stay roadworthy.


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## west point

jis said:


> Specially considering that the lack of a Diner on the Crescent is a conscious choice rather than an imperative driven by old Diners that required major work. The Mothballed Diners do not require anything close to the type of work that the Heritage Diners needed to stay roadworthy.



The many problems with the Crescent comes down to one word. = Atlanta =. 
1. On 20 the loads between NOL and Atlanta are terrible. However, there is some increase from TCL and BHM. On one trip from NOL the train had 5 Amfleets ( 2 = AM2s ) + dinner, lounge, 2 sleepers, baggage. Less than 50 coach out of NOL & 5 sleeper passegers. Rear 3 coached blocked off so could not use railfan window. tBig improvment as got a large one time tour group ou of BHM, Still partially filled just 2 coaches.

Out of ATL train mobbed eith what appeared to be over 125 passengers. Told sleepers were sold out at ATL. Booking up to CLT was going to it with CVS booked full ( No roanoke service yet. ). Now the near midnight departure comes close to fill just 2 coaches. No longer can ATL boarders get supper out of ATL, But can breakfast before WASH.Where as the earlier departure ATL persons could get breakfast and lunch north of WASH. 

South bound 19 passengers better but have to wonder how many RTs missed who fly to NEC or ending up driving.. So what to do about the low ridership south of 'ATL ? The only solution that is possible is if the combination of Crescent and Texas flyer happens with the high number of persons wanting to go to ATL and north.


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## Widfara

I was on the Eaglet October 5/6, and the prepared meals were served in the dining/cafe car by an attentive attendant. Room service WAS available but not assumed, and although the food was so-so, it was attractively presented within the limitations.
My Empire Builder. Coast Starlight, and California Zephyr experiences were great, except the attendant on the Starlight was not easy to find.
But the Cardinal! Seems like in refurbishing the sleeper the bed got smaller somehow. Good attendant, but basically confined to the cell. Food looked uniformly bad, only a bit better on taste. 
Next train is the Crescent Friday, and I have a bedroom.
Trip report after I get home.


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## NYP2NFL01

The menus under Onboard Dining on the Amtrak website are currently not working. You receive a "404" error and a picture of "Julie", Amtrak's virtual assistant! Could this mean Amtrak is preparing to return traditional dining to ALL long-distance trains? I know, wishful thinking!!!!!


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## zephyr17

NYP2NFL01 said:


> The menus under Onboard Dining on the Amtrak website are currently not working. You receive a "404" error and a picture of "Julie", Amtrak's virtual assistant! Could this mean Amtrak is preparing to return traditional dining to ALL long-distance trains? I know, wishful thinking!!!!!


It probably just means Amtrak IT screwed up again.


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## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> It probably just means Amtrak IT screwed up again.


It would be a nice surprise for my trip on the Meteor tomorrow, but I would indeed be surprised.


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## joelkfla

On 92 now, still Flex dining. I told my SCA Luther what people said about maybe the dining menus being gone meant traditional dining was returning, and he laughed. He said probably a few more months, and that Amtrak is cross training people to be chefs.


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## Steve4031

What does it mean to cross train? I take it training people to be chefs is a step towards restoring dining car service.


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## trimetbusfan

Steve4031 said:


> What does it mean to cross train? I take it training people to be chefs is a step towards restoring dining car service.


In other industries it means that someone is trained in multiple roles


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## lordsigma

I attended the RPA meeting in Kansas City yesterday and an Amtrak rep had a presentation. Traditional dining will indeed be restored to both the Meteor and Star and coach passengers will be regaining access to the diner on the western trains. This winter was mentioned but it wasn’t clear to me if this applied to both matters or just coach access to the diner.


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## Rambling Robert

That’s great to hear Coach access in the dining car is closer. My first Coach LD trip on the TE had memorable food and views as did the LSL. So now I can continue selling Amtrak’s great food. I just sold the idea to travel SSL based on food and drinks in the room — haha.


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## NYP2NFL01

lordsigma said:


> Traditional dining will indeed be restored to both the Meteor and Star and coach passengers will be regaining access to the diner on the western trains.


I really hope this is true and not Amtrak teasing us again!!!


----------



## Sidney

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I really hope this is true and not Amtrak teasing us again!!!


It would really be nice to restore traditional dining by next month,in time for winter travel to and from Florida. What a difference traditional dining makes on a long distance train.


----------



## joelkfla

Steve4031 said:


> What does it mean to cross train? I take it training people to be chefs is a step towards restoring dining car service.


I think they're training LSA's to be chefs. I overheard the LSA in the diner also mention it to somebody else but I wasn't in on that conversation.

I guess they gave up on trying to hire outside chefs.


----------



## joelkfla

The Flex pancakes bore slight resemblance to real pancakes. They were more like cakes baked in a pan -- dry and crumbly. They weren't terrible, but not what I expected.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

joelkfla said:


> The Flex pancakes bore slight resemblance to real pancakes. They were more like cakes baked in a pan -- dry and crumbly. They weren't terrible, but not what I expected.


I generally stick with the continental breakfast option. The bialy breakfast sandwich is better-tasting than the English muffin sandwich IMHO!


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## lordsigma

The new flexible pancakes with sausage is my favorite flexible meal for breakfast so far. Ive had it twice now and it seems it comes out a little more consistently than the French toast did.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

FYI - the menus on the Amtrak website are working again. Not surprisingly, all east coast LD trains STILL have the Flex Menu!


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Other than the CONO, all the menus are exactly the same. Why bother providing all these separate menu links on the Flexible Dining page? Just have two links:
1 - City of New Orleans Menu
2 - Flexible Dining Menu - All Other Trains
Seems misleading and a bit shady to me!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Other than the CONO, all the menus are exactly the same. Why bother providing all these separate menu links on the Flexible Dining page? Just have two links:
> 1 - City of New Orleans Menu
> 2 - Flexible Dining Menu - All Other Trains
> Seems misleading and a bit shady to me!


Probably easier to keep it that way so in the future they can put different menus on different trains.


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## jis

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Other than the CONO, all the menus are exactly the same. Why bother providing all these separate menu links on the Flexible Dining page? Just have two links:
> 1 - City of New Orleans Menu
> 2 - Flexible Dining Menu - All Other Trains
> Seems misleading and a bit shady to me!


I guess my conspiracy theory mind cannot quite discern the shadiness in providing menus for each train separately which at this time happen to be the same but might change individually in the future.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

jis said:


> I guess my conspiracy theory mind cannot quite discern the shadiness in providing menus for each train separately which at this time happen to be the same but might change individually in the future.


Okay. That makes sense!


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## zephyr17

jis said:


> I guess my conspiracy theory mind cannot quite discern the shadiness in providing menus for each train separately which at this time happen to be the same but might change individually in the future.


I think it is just leftover from the past when when there were different menus (or at least different graphics).


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

The specifics of letting coach passengers in the diner will be telling if they are serious or not about it. I think the current prices they are charging business class passengers on the Coast Starlight are a non starter. Like any business you have to know your audience. Those prices may be ok to business class passengers since they are already willing to pay a premium for a quiet car and more space. As far as the typical coach passenger I don’t see it happening.

At the minimum I hope they bring back the popular blue plate special to eat at your seat. I think that would check all the boxes. 15-20 bucks for a hot meal and a bottle of water to go. It’s not out of the box thinking it’s what they used to do.


----------



## Rambling Robert

AmtrakFlyer said:


> The specifics of letting coach passengers in the diner will be telling if they are serious or not about it. I think the current prices they are charging business class passengers on the Coast Starlight are a non starter. Like any business you have to know your audience. Those prices may be ok to business class passengers since they are already willing to pay a premium for a quiet car and more space. As far as the typical coach passenger I don’t see it happening.
> 
> At the minimum I hope they bring back the popular blue plate special to eat at your seat. I think that would check all the boxes. 15-20 bucks for a hot meal and a bottle of water to go. It’s not out of the box thinking it’s what they used to do.


THE REMAINING RESERVATIONS at each seating are what will be offered to coach - which may just be a few in total. In 2018 non-sleeper passengers using the dining car used a MENU THAT WAS PRICED.

But as a coach passenger I’ll pay whatever for dining CS access.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> THE REMAINING RESERVATIONS at each seating are what will be offered to coach - which may just be a few in total. In 2018 non-sleeper passengers using the dining car used a MENU THAT WAS PRICED.
> 
> But as a coach passenger I’ll pay whatever for dining CS access.


Uh, that's the way it was before Flex Dining. I remember one coach trip I took on the Silver Star around 2010, a packed train (it was President's Day weekend), and no dinner in the diner for me, I had to settle for a microwaved pizza in the cafe car. A fellow coach passenger was so annoyed that he had words with the conductor that resulted in him and his family being put off the train somewhere in Southside Virginia (not at a station stop, I recall flashing blue and red lights of a vehicle parked by the tracks when we made the unscheduled stop.) On the other hand, I had no problem getting a table for breakfast in the dining car.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, that's the way it was before Flex Dining. I remember one coach trip I took on the Silver Star around 2010, a packed train (it was President's Day weekend), and no dinner in the diner for me, I had to settle for a microwaved pizza in the cafe car. A fellow coach passenger was so annoyed that he had words with the conductor that resulted in him and his family being put off the train somewhere in Southside Virginia (not at a station stop, I recall flashing blue and red lights of a vehicle parked by the tracks when we made the unscheduled stop.) On the other hand, I had no problem getting a table for breakfast in the dining car.


Breakfast the trick is to go early. That works better even when you are in Sleeper.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakFlyer said:


> The specifics of letting coach passengers in the diner will be telling if they are serious or not about it. I think the current prices they are charging business class passengers on the Coast Starlight are a non starter. Like any business you have to know your audience. Those prices may be ok to business class passengers since they are already willing to pay a premium for a quiet car and more space. As far as the typical coach passenger I don’t see it happening.
> 
> At the minimum I hope they bring back the popular blue plate special to eat at your seat. I think that would check all the boxes. 15-20 bucks for a hot meal and a bottle of water to go. It’s not out of the box thinking it’s what they used to do.


I would be absolutely shocked if they go back to priced menus. I suspect it will be the same deal as on the Starlight. With what restaurants cost these days with inflation in my opinion the prices are not outrageous - it is being served on a train after all. Back in the a la carte days if you actually ordered what the $45 dinner comes with the price would have been right around the same especially if one got a steak. I don't think the dining car meals need to be excessively subsidized and have no problem if they charge something that's somewhat cost based - $60 would be excessive but I think $45 for entree, appetizer, dessert, unlimited soft drinks, and an alcoholic beverage is not unreasonable. The cafe remains available for the budget traveler who wants a la carte - I 100% support coach access but I don't think people are necessarily entitled to a cheap meal in the diner. From the sounds of it they got a fairly good take in Business on the Starlight and I'm sure they'll get people from coach. Perhaps they will offer an option to save some by not having a beverage or a dessert but I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I agree with the Posters who think Amtrak should return to the Special Meals for Coach Passengers that were a set Price ( the Fried Chicken Dinner on the Sunset Ltd was especially Good!/the time I had it it was $22))and served @ the Coach Passengers Seat by the Coach Attendant.

Breakfast has always been the Best Deal in the Diner in most people's opinion.

I'm of the mind that $45 is a little Pricey for Coach Passengers for Dinner(and also feel that the Offerings in the Cafe need to be Healthier and Tastier)YMMV


----------



## lordsigma

The new cafe menu does seem like it's a bit of an improvement with salads and sandwiches once again available. I haven't actually tried one of them just yet to be able to actually say how much better it is.


----------



## Rambling Robert

I am on a budget but not so when it comes to food. A prix fixe of $20, $35 and $45 would be what I’d pay, and I don’t drink alcoholic beverages.

The blue corn tamale (below) went well with the creamy Mac and cheese. After opening the corn husk I fluffed up the tamale a bit for presentation 

I think the taste (between a burrito and Turku stuffing) is out of the park and vegan too. Also out of the park was the crunchy Asia salad - a zillion veggies and crunchy Chinese noodles. This pairs well with the Tamale (10/10), Mac & Cheese (8/10) and the Asia Salad (10/10) total is about $20 or so.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> I think the taste (between a burrito and Turku stuffing) . . .


"Turku stuffing?" Is that a Finnish dish that I've never heard of?


----------



## daybeers

joelkfla said:


> I guess they gave up on trying to hire outside chefs.


Finally came to their senses...what skilled chef would want to be away from home for days at a time just to reheat most of the meals served with very little room for creativity?

If someone was willing to be away from home, I'd imagine working on a cruise or other type of ship would be much more appealing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

daybeers said:


> Finally came to their senses...what skilled chef would want to be away from home for days at a time just to reheat most of the meals served with very little room for creativity?
> 
> If someone was willing to be away from home, I'd imagine working on a cruise or other type of ship would be much more appealing.


There’s no room for creativity for the majority of cooks / chefs working in any market. 

Amtrak pays chef / cooks way more than similar jobs on land and I’m certain they pay more than the majority of cruise ship jobs.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> There’s no room for creativity for the majority of cooks / chefs working in any market.
> 
> Amtrak pays chef / cooks way more than similar jobs on land and I’m certain they pay more than the majority of cruise ship jobs.


Pretty much - the issue Amtrak is going to have with OBS positions on LD trains is work-life balance - not the way in which food is prepared. Most people are just looking to make a living.


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## JWM

At 72, I remember how dining cars were managed and the pricing. On trains like the Super Chief and Florida Special the pricing was top end, but so was the product. The Empire Builder had a "Ranch Car" with lower prices for coach. I remember a tale from a Super Chief Dining Car Steward, long since deceased, when the crew fed 350 from a car that seated 36 at one time. They all got great service and great food. To this day, I do not know how.


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Pretty much - the issue Amtrak is going to have with OBS positions on LD trains is work-life balance - not the way in which food is prepared. Most people are just looking to make a living.


Which is why Amtrak pays significantly more than a land based restaurant. 

If you can make it work, it’s actually a pretty good gig with so many days on and so many days off depending on the route. The big deal for many is you have let Amtrak make your life schedule, you can’t take off for holidays / special events. 

I don’t think Cross-training LSA’s isn’t a good idea unless they are only going to be making the re-heated items. Cooking eggs, omelettes, steaks, fish, etc. should really be left to those with a background in a commercial kitchen.


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## Amtrak709

JWM said:


> At 72, I remember how dining cars were managed and the pricing. On trains like the Super Chief and Florida Special the pricing was top end, but so was the product. The Empire Builder had a "Ranch Car" with lower prices for coach. I remember a tale from a Super Chief Dining Car Steward, long since deceased, when the crew fed 350 from a car that seated 36 at one time. They all got great service and great food. To this day, I do not know how.


JWM. Sounds as if we may have similar memories. I am 75 and 375,000 rail miles--and would love to be in the Florida Special (or even the Silver Comet) dining car right now. Remember writing your own dining car order on the dining car check???


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## JWM

Amtrak709 said:


> JWM. Sounds as if we may have similar memories. I am 75 and 375,000 rail miles--and would love to be in the Florida Special (or even the Silver Comet) dining car right now. Remember writing your own dining car order on the dining car check.


Sometimes they even sharpened the pencils they gave you! In the 1960's I traveled a lot on the "South Wind" between Indianapolis and West Palm Beach. Winter brought a dome sleeping car from the "North Coast Limited" with four duplex single rooms under the dome. They were great for this kid going off to boarding school. Also, the PRR twin-unit dining car made a great hamburger with fries and, are you ready, Grey Poupon. Somehow, airline food never impressed me as much.


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## AmtrakFlyer

JWM said:


> At 72, I remember how dining cars were managed and the pricing. On trains like the Super Chief and Florida Special the pricing was top end, but so was the product. The Empire Builder had a "Ranch Car" with lower prices for coach. I remember a tale from a Super Chief Dining Car Steward, long since deceased, when the crew fed 350 from a car that seated 36 at one time. They all got great service and great food.  To this day, I do not know how.


That’s a huge issue that seems to be mostly ignored at Amtrak. The diner could do so much more if hours were extended or coach passengers could order food to go at a slight discount as I talked about earlier.


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## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakFlyer said:


> That’s a huge issue that seems to be mostly ignored at Amtrak. The diner could do so much more if hours were extended or coach passengers could order food to go at a slight discount as I talked about earlier.


It’s worse than ignored by Amtrak. Amtrak tried the “at your seat” meals for coach and it was a success. They know it works. That’s why it’s so frustrating. 

Riding the coast starlight this summer gave me hope that all is not lost… hopefully we can get real dining car service back on all LD trains in the next year or 2.


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## JWM

Regarding cost, the Northern Pacific "North Coast Limited", in 1962, had a three-course steak dinner that cost the equivalent of $44 today. Want wine, add it on. How many they served; I do not know. You could get a decent, unfancy meal in the "Travelers Rest" car for under half that.


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## Amtrak709

Even though I missed the glory days of the plush dining cars of the 1930's-40's-50's (I didn't starting riding until the mid 1960's), it was still a great experience--it was a railroad dining car!!! And all was still good until recently. I still blame John Mica. I know he was defeated from his office in 2016
well before the current issues, but political issue movement are sometimes very slow to become significant, and Mica's politics + the arrival of COVID combined to create the "dining" issues that plague us today. Again, in my opinion.


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## JP1822

A flat price for coach passengers ordering in the Diner would be a good way to go. Amtrak could even do an “upsell” program and have coach passengers pre-order their meals at time of ticket purchase. This has been LONG talked about, but it has never been implemented. Would add more efficiency to the overall program - particularly by reducing waste. Amtrak has to find a way to also “attract“ coach passengers back to the Diner as they were pretty much booted out prior to getting the official boot (e.g. high priced meals, low quality, etc.). There’s LOTS of possibilities here, Amtrak just needs to embrace a few and try and run with it!


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## railiner

JWM said:


> I remember a tale from a Super Chief Dining Car Steward, long since deceased, when the crew fed 350 from a car that seated 36 at one time. They all got great service and great food. To this day, I do not know how.


IIRC, the 1951 version of the Super Chief typically carried around 7 or 8 sleepers, with an approximate capacity of 160 or so passengers. The 1951 version had a 48 seat diner, plus overflow capacity of 9-12 more in the adjacent car's "Turquoise Room". The Fred Harvey service diner had a steward, 6 waiters, a pantryman, a chef, a couple of assistant chefs, and a dishwasher. 

So the staff to passenger ratio was much better than what Amtrak has to work with.


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## Rasputin

railiner said:


> So the staff to passenger ratio was much better than what Amtrak has to work with.


Amtrak chooses what it has to work with.


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## jis

Rasputin said:


> Amtrak chooses what it has to work with.


Actually Congress chooses the guardrails within which Amtrak has to work. Amtrak Board further restricts the space and hands it over to Amtrak Management. Then Amtrak Management gets to choose only within those guardrails.


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## Rasputin

jis said:


> Actually Congress chooses the guardrails within which Amtrak has to work. Amtrak Board further restricts the space and ahnds it over to Amtrak Management. The Amtrak Management gets to choose only within those guardrails.


So, are you saying that Congress canned the dining car on the Crescent?


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## crescent-zephyr

Amtrak709 said:


> And all was still good until recently.


Still good in the west! If you are in a sleeper. 

If space is limited it actually does make sense to charge $45 or whatever for dinner and just let the coach passengers have the same deal as sleepers (appetizer, entree, dessert + 1 alcohol drink).



Rasputin said:


> Amtrak chooses what it has to work with.


6 servers in a 48 seat diner sounds like way too many. They’d run into each other! The staffing out west works for the current demand (sleeper only).


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## jis

Rasputin said:


> So, are you saying that Congress canned the dining car on the Crescent?


Not entirely. In the context of the pandemic, Congress gave money to retain employees for a limited period of time. It took its own time to actually provide it and then did not extend that to cover the period of drastically reduced revenues. The management IMHO overreacted and reduced more than they should have. It takes many hands to produce the mess that is Amtrak.

But in the context of Diners, yes, Congress had pretty much determined that there shall be no 6 servers per Diner and set the guardrails saying that almost specifically, for many many years now, and that has not changed even in the new found enthusiasm for food service. As a matter of fact Congress for many years had directed Amtrak to reduce food service to an unspecified very low level, in case you forgot recent history.


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## MARC Rider

It does seem that back in the good old days (My experience was with Amtrak's Merchant's Limited in 1975), the dining car staff (and they didn't have 6 servers) was able to serve a lot more meals (and thus yield a lot more revenue) pretty quickly. I was able to eat a full dinner on the Merchant's while riding between Trenton and Newark. Actually, come to think of it, the Acela can serve up meals that quickly nowadays, too. There might be something to getting rid of dinner reservations, longer hours open, and having patrons order their meals themselves, either by marking the menu, like in the good old days or preordering when reserving their tickets. Prepaying meals should take some load off the servers, as they wouldn't have to worry about running credit cards, etc. They should be thinking about moving as many people as possible through the dining car, thus increasing revenues. It seems like there are changes they can make that will not degrade the quality of the food, nor increase costs too much.


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## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> 6 servers in a 48 seat diner sounds like way too many. They’d run into each other! The staffing out west works for the current demand (sleeper only).


I don't believe I ever recommended six servers in a diner. Perhaps someone recommended that but I did not.

As I recall from the trip on the Crescent in May 2019 (which was my only experience with the new dining cars and unfortunately may remain my only experience with these cars) the car appeared to be staffed by two servers, a chef and perhaps an assistant chef (corrections would be welcome.) The food quality and service was excellent with that small staff but I guess that was too much for Amtrak or Congress or whatever.


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## Rasputin

I also recall that the diner-lite car which ran on the Lake Shore for a few years would serve some excellent meals. It appeared to be staffed by a chef and 2 (or 3) servers. Maybe there was another chef as well but I don't recall it so corrections would be welcome. 

This car was replaced by one of the new dining cars which is not used as it was intended but serves as a "heat 'em up" car for flex meals.


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## jis

Rasputin said:


> I also recall that the diner-lite car which ran on the Lake Shore for a few years would serve some excellent meals. It appeared to be staffed by a chef and 2 (or 3) servers. Maybe there was another chef as well but I don't recall it so corrections would be welcome.
> 
> This car was replaced by one of the new dining cars which is not used as it was intended but serves as a "heat 'em up" car for flex meals.


In between those two was a period of over a year of Contemporary Meal Service on LSL which consisted of only cold meals. Slowly a few hot items were added for Dinner, all Microwaved of course. Eventually what came out of all that was the Flex Menu. It was an excruciating journey downhill, all caused by the Mica Amendment. 

Downgrades that hit its nadir with removal of Dining Service from the Star and Contemporary menu on the LSL happened before Anderson. The downgrades on the Star and the LSL was blamed on the delay in the delivery of the Viewliner II Diners as the Heritage Diners came up for their very expensive periodic overhauls. The cars were withdrawn instead of spending large chunks of money on strip down and rebuild overhauls. IIRC. Flex Menu on single level trains happened in the Anderson era. Across the board Flex Menu happened during the pandemic.


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## lordsigma

Downgrades to the Cardinal and CONO also occurred before the pandemic did they not? I recall hearing the diner lite situation on the CONO was not good before flex.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> Downgrades to the Cardinal and CONO also occurred before the pandemic did they not? I recall hearing the diner lite situation on the CONO was not good before flex.


I believe it happened at or about the time when LSL lost hot meals of any sort.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> I believe it happened at or about the time when LSL lost hot meals of any sort.


Or I meant to say and misspoke - they got downgraded from full dining car service with the full kitchen to a diner lite style before the contemporary/flexible dining initiative came to those trains - didn't mean to say the pandemic. I remember people saying the CONO was the worst of all the trains before flexible dining and some felt flexible dining was actually an improvement on that particular train.


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## cocojacoby

_Here is a revised version of something I proposed two years ago on another website. Some of you might enjoy the concept:_

*THE ENTREPRENEURIAL CHEF*

Okay it's just an idea but what if Amtrak tries this?

Amtrak "gives away" it's dining car service to its chefs. Each chef gets to run their own dining service. They have control of what to order and what to serve. They can get as creative as they want. They make the menus and they set their own prices. They can hire the servers they know are good or make it a family affair like many mom and pop restaurants. They must open for at least traditional dining car hours but can also operate up to 24 hours if they want. They got a pretty good captive audience to sell to.

The entrepreneurial chef does not get paid by Amtrak but they get to keep the profits that they make. They get to run their own restaurant without the high risk and overhead expense. I am sure there are Amtrak chefs out there who have great ideas on how to run a dining car but never got the chance to do it. I can see a spirited competition between chefs generating some good press for Amtrak and maybe having people ride certain trains just for the different culinary experience. Each chef would have his or her own specialty dish along with some required items.

The cost to run the dining car for Amtrak would be minimal. Amtrak can proudly tell the story of the unique opportunity it has given to these hard working men and woman who toil very hard at their unique craft behind the scenes. I think this could be a pretty exciting opportunity for some hard working folks who would never get such a chance in their lifetime and great publicity for Amtrak.

Could it work? Why not give it a try?


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## amtrakpass

Even in the 2000's to early 2010's I remember having no problem as a coach passenger getting a seat in the diner on busy or sold out trains both Western and Eastern Long Distance. Then I distinctly remember after they switched to some form of the new dining on the Capitol Limited(years before covid) the crew refused to seat me in the diner even though the train was not busy saying there was no room and the sleeper passengers had all taken all the reservations. It made no sense at the time and it still doesn't to me. It shouldn't be that hard to schedule and appropriately staff a diner to serve both coach and sleeper passengers.


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## zephyr17

amtrakpass said:


> Then I distinctly remember after they switched to some form of the new dining on the Capitol Limited(years before covid) the crew refused to seat me in the diner even though the train was not busy saying there was no room and the sleeper passengers had all taken all the reservations.


That was almost certainly due to one of the early iterations of "Simplified Dining Service" ("SDS"), which was the initial response to the mandate Amtrak had received by John Mica legislation that food service ultimately could no longer be covered in any part by the subsidy. They cut back on dining car staffing, only one server (as well as degrading the food itself), so the approach were reservations open for one or two tables at 15 minute intervals. They could not use all or even most of the physical tables because there wasn't staff to provide service. That drastically limited capacity and often cut coach out entirely because sleeping car passengers took all the available slots. They ultimately restaffed somewhat and went back to a more traditional reservations system, but the never restaffed to the level it had been and capacity never fully recovered. As you said, it was long before flex or COVID and can laid at John Mica's doorstep.


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## crescent-zephyr

There have been several different dining car setups on the Capitol. A sold out Capitol departing Chicago does have some capacity problems because of departing Chicago after dinner service usually begins and then crossing over into eastern time before dinner service ends. 

Of course…. If you really wanted to maximize profits, if the sleeping car attendants would advertise and offer room service than more guests would use it which frees up more spots in the diner for coach passengers.


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## amtrakpass

Yes, I think it might have been due to the change in staffing that they were saying there was no room. But it reminded me at the time that leadership matters. Whether or not there was actually time and room to seat coach passengers, (and I believe there was ample time on this particular trip long ago) the staff got the feeling, if not the official word from management that it was not important so it was not done. It is amazing to me what a difference it makes when people know what they are working toward is valued by the company and vice-versa when it is not. I am encouraged to see that we have some long overdue improvements coming to dining and even if it is not implemented perfectly I think the overall effect will be quite positive.


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## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> 6 servers in a 48 seat diner sounds like way too many. They’d run into each other! The staffing out west works for the current demand (sleeper only).


You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...just not the same. 6 waiters meant one serving two tables of four, or more if one was covering the Turquoise Room in the adjacent Pleasure Dome Lounge car.


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## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...


I’ve had that on Amtrak. Everything except the China exists now on the western trains. I mean “impeccable” service varies from train to train of course but not because of the number of servers haha.


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## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve had that on Amtrak. Everything except the China exists now on the western trains. I mean “impeccable” service varies from train to train of course but not because of the number of servers haha.


I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?


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## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?


I’m a little too young for that but I’ve eaten in plenty of fancy restaurants as well as all sorts of Dining cars including the Ed Ellis Pullman cars that followed the Pullman standards probably closer than Pullman themselves haha.

Amtrak dining cars are certainly not consistent with excellent service, but it definitely exists.


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## zephyr17

railiner said:


> I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?


@crescent-zephyr may not have ridden the Super Chief, but I have, although it was in 1970. The service was indeed excellent. It was speedy, polite, thorough and nothing was forgotten. It was indeed considerably better than my average experience in Amtrak diners from at least the 80s on (early Amtrak was staffed by experienced railroad crews).


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## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> @crescent-zephyr may not have ridden the Super Chief, but I have, although it was in 1970. The service was indeed excellent. It was speedy, polite, thorough and nothing was forgotten. It was indeed considerably better than my average experience in Amtrak diners from at least the 80s on (early Amtrak was staffed by experienced railroad crews).


Like your "namesake train"? When L J Bernstein managed the dining car services?


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## MccfamschoolMom

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, that's the way it was before Flex Dining. I remember one coach trip I took on the Silver Star around 2010, a packed train (it was President's Day weekend), and no dinner in the diner for me, I had to settle for a microwaved pizza in the cafe car. A fellow coach passenger was so annoyed that he had words with the conductor that resulted in him and his family being put off the train somewhere in Southside Virginia (not at a station stop, I recall flashing blue and red lights of a vehicle parked by the tracks when we made the unscheduled stop.) On the other hand, I had no problem getting a table for breakfast in the dining car.


That's also the way it was when I'd ride the Empire Builder as a college student way back in the 1970s.


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## zephyr17

railiner said:


> Like your "namesake train"? When L J Bernstein managed the dining car services?


Yeah, that, too.


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## MARC Rider

railiner said:


> You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...just not the same. 6 waiters meant one serving two tables of four, or more if one was covering the Turquoise Room in the adjacent Pleasure Dome Lounge car.


Not every train was the Super Chief, and I suspect that the lesser trains has scaled-down, though perfectly adequate, service. My experience with eastern Amtrak trains in the 1970s (probably legacy PRR service) was that they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable." Yeah, they had cloth tablecloths, silver plate utensils, etc., but even cheap restaurants back in the day had that sort of stuff. The actual food was good, but pretty plain, which makes sense, as the point is to serve everybody decent food, rather than attempt to have a 5-star dining experience. The main thing about the old-time diners that I remember was that it wasn't some sort of dramatic production, like it seems to be nowadays. You showed up without a reservation, they seated you quickly, even on a crowded train (community seating), you ordered quickly from a simplified menu, you were served quickly, you paid, and you were on your way. The staff was there to get you served, not find reasons not to. If there were "rule" and "policies" they were not apparent to the customer -- you just came and they served you, you paid, and you left for the next customer.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable."


That’s my thoughts as well. The service during that time frame was not known to be overly friendly. I’m thinking of the fancy restaurants where they say things like “bread sir” or “more wine sir” - it’s efficient and professional but not overly friendly.


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## Palmland

MARC Rider said:


> Not every train was the Super Chief, and I suspect that the lesser trains has scaled-down, though perfectly adequate, service. My experience with eastern Amtrak trains in the 1970s (probably legacy PRR service) was that they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable." Y


I would mostley agree, although I think that describes the service on the better prre Amtrak trains too. The difference was mainly in the place settings and presentation. I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous. Brusque would be a better word to describe it. Now the Baltimore and Ohio was courteous. even if the dining cars were mainly upgraded heavyweight equipment. I'm sure those same personnel continued on into early Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous. Brusque would be a better word to describe it. Now the Baltimore and Ohio was courteous.


See…. I’m starting to be convinced it’s just a railroad dining car thing and not an Amtrak thing. Inconsistent service is just part of the deal! Haha


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## lordsigma

I had some great service on my most recent trip. Was aboard the Lake Shore Limited and Southwest Chief.


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## Rasputin

Palmland said:


> I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous. Brusque would be a better word to describe it.


I found the dining car service on the Broadway, even under Penn Central, to be definitely courteous and even exquisite.

When a waiter went from table to table at breakfast offering each passenger a freshly baked bran muffin, you know you were someplace special and the muffins were pretty good too.


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## zephyr17

Palmland said:


> I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous.


From what it looks like, Amtrak's culture is probably more descended from late era Pennsy/Penn Central, less from, say, Santa Fe.


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## Palmland

Rasputin said:


> I found the dining car service on the Broadway, even under Penn Central, to be definitely courteous and even exquisite.



No doubt the PRR was proud of the Broadway- how else to explain Mountain and Tower View lasting into the late 60’s. But my experience was on the likes of the Colonial, St. Louisan, Cincinnati Ltd.


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## joelkfla

Why does Amtrak have such problems with salads?

On one leg of my trip last June, the LSA said there were no salads because the commissary delivered them frozen. On my trip north on the SS last week, they "ran out" of salads before lunch on the 2nd day (I mean, they know how many sleeper passengers will be on board for each meal, right?) On the return trip on the SM, the LSA said she wouldn't serve the salads because they were delivered "all wilted".

I gave the Flex pancakes a 2nd chance on the return trip, even though the LSA warned me that they would be exactly the same. Actually, they were slightly better, leading me to believe that the storage or prep may have been partially to blame. But this was the first time I've ever seen a pancake with a skin, let alone one that was separating.

The commissary also forgot to load Tabasco, which I wanted for the sausage. I'm going to resume packing my own!


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## Widfara

AmtrakFlyer said:


> The specifics of letting coach passengers in the diner will be telling if they are serious or not about it. I think the current prices they are charging business class passengers on the Coast Starlight are a non starter. Like any business you have to know your audience. Those prices may be ok to business class passengers since they are already willing to pay a premium for a quiet car and more space. As far as the typical coach passenger I don’t see it happening.
> 
> At the minimum I hope they bring back the popular blue plate special to eat at your seat. I think that would check all the boxes. 15-20 bucks for a hot meal and a bottle of water to go. It’s not out of the box thinking it’s what they used to do.


In a conversation with a coach passenger in the diner on the Eagle years ago, he told me he likes, and can afford breakfast and lunch in the diner, but dinner was ridiculously priced too high.


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## Palmland

For those of you lamenting the current state of dining on the Texas Eagle, here's what it looked like in 1955 on the Texas Chief when tthe train was introduced. The second photo shows a waiter in the lounge serving passengers at their seats. Imagine! Note the caption says serving of hors d'oeuvres on the Santa Fe lasting three years into Amtrak, probably when Amtrak hired crews took over from ATSF employees.








Photos from 'Santa Fe's Last Dining Car Instructions' by David Peironnet.


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## west point

There may be a problem with storage space on trains now. Growing up we had a well stocked kitchen that was relatively small. Now the two of us have a larger storage area that is full. It may be that diner cars just cannot carry everything that passengers desire? It may be time for Amtrak to adopt the airline model havng frozen meal entries to be heated in convection ovens. Then have various fresh items usig the rest of the space?


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## zephyr17

west point said:


> There may be a problem with storage space on trains now. Growing up we had a well stocked kitchen that was relatively small. Now the two of us have a larger storage area that is full. It may be that diner cars just cannot carry everything that passengers desire? It may be time for Amtrak to adopt the airline model havng frozen meal entries to be heated in convection ovens. Then have various fresh items usig the rest of the space?


The Viewliner diners have about the same size galley diners have always had. Superliner galleys are larger. Traditionally, diners were able to stock enough supplies in such a space to offer a pretty good menu selection in them, though certainly not as wide as a regular restaurant. On almost all trains both Pullman and coach passengers could patronize the diner.

If they do go to an airline model more widely, flex being a poorly executed version of that model, it won't be because diner galleys lack space.


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## crescent-zephyr

west point said:


> There may be a problem with storage space on trains now.


There isn’t. Plenty of space to stock ingredients for full-service dining cars.

The CCC cars are able to store full service dining AND cafe car storage if needed.


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## jis

west point said:


> There may be a problem with storage space on trains now. Growing up we had a well stocked kitchen that was relatively small. Now the two of us have a larger storage area that is full. It may be that diner cars just cannot carry everything that passengers desire? It may be time for Amtrak to adopt the airline model havng frozen meal entries to be heated in convection ovens. Then have various fresh items usig the rest of the space?


Do you really believe that everything is cooked on board starting from raw ingredients? Most of the stuff comes frozen or deep refrigerated, much partly or wholly precooked and is thawed, finished and plated.


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## Brian Battuello

My fuzzy recollections of pre-Amtrak dining include a trout that was definitely cooked from fresh on board.


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## zephyr17

Brian Battuello said:


> My fuzzy recollections of pre-Amtrak dining include a trout that was definitely cooked from fresh on board.


That was definitely a feature on the RGZ.


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## crescent-zephyr

Brian Battuello said:


> My fuzzy recollections of pre-Amtrak dining include a trout that was definitely cooked from fresh on board.


I’m not entirely sure but I think several Amtrak fish entrees are cooked on board.


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## lordsigma

The items fully cooked from raw on board are the eggs and the steak. A number of other items are partially precooked in the commissary or come from the vendor partially precooked and are then heated and finish cooked on board - usually with a certain amount of finish cooking to give it the feel of being cooked on board - such as the burgers which arrive partially pre cooked are heated and then finish cooked on the grill so they come off more like a freshly cooked burger than the burgers in the cafe car. I believe for the chicken and fish entrees the commissary uses the sous vide method of precooking and packaging.


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## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> The items fully cooked from raw on board are the eggs and the steak. A number of other items are partially precooked in the commissary or come from the vendor partially precooked and are then heated and finish cooked on board - usually with a certain amount of finish cooking to give it the feel of being cooked on board - such as the burgers which arrive partially pre cooked are heated and then finish cooked on the grill so they come off more like a freshly cooked burger than the burgers in the cafe car. I believe for the chicken and fish entrees the commissary uses the sous vide method of precooking and packaging.


Should be noted about the eggs though while they are fully cooked on board - they are made from pre scrambled egg product out of a carton. This is why only scrambled eggs and omelettes are the only prep options. I think pre Covid the omelettes actually were pre made and reheated and only the scrambled eggs were fresh - now both are fresh.


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## trimetbusfan

Wow, I’m shocked. On the coast starlight #11(30) today. The dining car LSA just came through the Coach cars offering (and giving) passengers dinner reservations. Not just buisness class today. 

They are doing it on a space avalible basis, and are charging $45 flat rate for dinner just like in business class.


----------



## JP1822

That’s good to hear about the Coast Starlight. I wonder if that’s a pilot program of some sort. It should work I think. For $45 you get the three options (appetizer, entree, and dessert), but what about a regular drinks and alcoholic drinks? Are the drinks extra or on top of the $45. If you do get a alcoholic drink and soft drink for the $45, not a bad deal these days. Just saying!


----------



## lordsigma

JP1822 said:


> That’s good to hear about the Coast Starlight. I wonder if that’s a pilot program of some sort. It should work I think. For $45 you get the three options (appetizer, entree, and dessert), but what about a regular drinks and alcoholic drinks? Are the drinks extra or on top of the $45. If you do get a alcoholic drink and soft drink for the $45, not a bad deal these days. Just saying!


It mirrors what sleeper passengers get. You get the first alcoholic drink free and unlimited non alcoholic drinks during the meal.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I believe for the chicken and fish entrees the commissary uses the sous vide method of precooking and packaging.


One of the fish dishes used to say “grilled to order” so that wouldn’t be sous vide. If it was partially cooked or not I can’t say. I didn’t think Amtrak was still doing the sous vide entrees…. They were the best I’ve ever had on any train. The Lamb Shank especially!


lordsigma said:


> Should be noted about the eggs though while they are fully cooked on board - they are made from pre scrambled egg product out of a carton. This is why only scrambled eggs and omelettes are the only prep options.


I do know that the crescent was using actual eggs even in the “scrambled eggs only” era of dining car menus. I saw them with my own eyes! Haha. Obviously that was before October 2019 so maybe the western trains are now using something else. I notice they don’t have the “using cafe free eggs note”’on the menu anymore.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> One of the fish dishes used to say “grilled to order” so that wouldn’t be sous vide. If it was partially cooked or not I can’t say. I didn’t think Amtrak was still doing the sous vide entrees…. They were the best I’ve ever had on any train. The Lamb Shank especially!
> 
> I do know that the crescent was using actual eggs even in the “scrambled eggs only” era of dining car menus. I saw them with my own eyes! Haha. Obviously that was before October 2019 so maybe the western trains are now using something else. I notice they don’t have the “using cafe free eggs note”’on the menu anymore.


Pretty sure the chicken and fish are sous vide. Liquid egg doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not cage free it’s possible to get cage free liquid whole egg product. It just means it’s not uncracked eggs - and allows for only scrambled and omelettes. There may be occasions where they have fresh uncracked eggs too but I think it’s usually a container of liquid eggs. I could be wrong though maybe they don’t pre beat the eggs - if you saw real eggs on the crescent I may be incorrect. I was pretty sure though I heard and saw that they use liquid egg product which is common in commercial kitchens.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Here’s my scrambled eggs from a month ago…. If these are a egg product they are way better than the “powdered” eggs served on Alaska Railroad that’s for sure!


----------



## trimetbusfan

JP1822 said:


> That’s good to hear about the Coast Starlight. I wonder if that’s a pilot program of some sort. It should work I think. For $45 you get the three options (appetizer, entree, and dessert), but what about a regular drinks and alcoholic drinks? Are the drinks extra or on top of the $45. If you do get a alcoholic drink and soft drink for the $45, not a bad deal these days. Just saying!


I believe it is unlimited soft drinks and then each alcoholic drink after the first one you have to pay for at a certain price.


----------



## zephyr17

JP1822 said:


> That’s good to hear about the Coast Starlight. I wonder if that’s a pilot program of some sort. It should work I think. For $45 you get the three options (appetizer, entree, and dessert), but what about a regular drinks and alcoholic drinks? Are the drinks extra or on top of the $45. If you do get a alcoholic drink and soft drink for the $45, not a bad deal these days. Just saying!


Well, the BC was considered a trial for non-sleeper access, so they might piloting coach in the same way.

$45/dinner includes ONE alcoholic beverage. It isn't bad deal with the steak.


----------



## JP1822

The eggs seem better on more recent LD trips I’ve taken - for what it is worth. Better even since 2018…. They have more taste and a bit fluffier, not as bland. Steak though always ask how you want it cooked - so presuming that’s being put on the grill at least, as well a the salmon……Planko Chicken was tasty and not rubbery, so not sure how that’s prepared exactly. Presume it’s frozen (pre-cooked) and put in a convection oven or something.


----------



## lordsigma

JP1822 said:


> The eggs seem better on more recent LD trips I’ve taken - for what it is worth. Better even since 2018…. They have more taste and a bit fluffier, not as bland. Steak though always ask how you want it cooked - so presuming that’s being put on the grill at least, as well a the salmon……Planko Chicken was tasty and not rubbery, so not sure how that’s prepared exactly. Presume it’s frozen (pre-cooked) and put in a convection oven or something.



Steak I’m pretty sure is cooked completely on board. Chicken is sous vide prepared and finished in the oven.


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> One of the fish dishes used to say “grilled to order” so that wouldn’t be sous vide. If it was partially cooked or not I can’t say. I didn’t think Amtrak was still doing the sous vide entrees…. They were the best I’ve ever had on any train. The Lamb Shank especially!


It's possible to cook a food sous vide and then finish it on the grill for texture. They could probably get away with calling that "grilled to order."


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## ms garrison

Brian Battuello said:


> My fuzzy recollections of pre-Amtrak dining include a trout that was definitely cooked from fresh on board.



I remember being served rainbow trout on the EB coming from St Paul to Chicago in 1980 or 81. Myself and 3 kids were in coach, but could pay to eat in the diner. Their first train ride and they were super impressed.


----------



## WWW

About that first alcoholic drink being on Amtrak - the selection is extremely meager - check the Traditional and Flex dining menus for what
is offered - while you can't boldly BYOB to the cafe dining car you can in your own sleeper - a good sleeper car attendant should be able to offer
the fixin's !


----------



## jis

ms garrison said:


> I remember being served rainbow trout on the EB coming from St Paul to Chicago in 1980 or 81. Myself and 3 kids were in coach, but could pay to eat in the diner. Their first train ride and they were super impressed.


Back then there used to be Chef and an assistant in the kitchen too. That has not been the case in the last 20 or so years. How food is prepared and delivered has changed drastically since the '80s and not necessarily for the better. But Amtrak was given marching orders to reduce labor cost and overall cost of food service and the results have been disastrous for food services, predictably.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

ms garrison said:


> I remember being served rainbow trout on the EB coming from St Paul to Chicago in 1980 or 81. Myself and 3 kids were in coach, but could pay to eat in the diner. Their first train ride and they were super impressed.


Sounds delicious! I was able to get breakfast and lunch on the EB (Fargo, ND to Milwaukee, WI) as a college student in coach in the late 1970s, so no trout at lunchtime, and I remember being disappointed that plain potato chips were the only option for a side with the lunch entrees (probably some kind of burger, considering my tastes at the time).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Back then there used to be Chef and an assistant in the kitchen too. That has not been the case in the last 20 or so years.


I thought trains like Builder and Starlight had a 2nd cook in the kitchen when they had the real plates and glassware? That was supposedly the reason for being able to have real dishes…enough staff to wash them. Haha. Or so I was told.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought trains like Builder and Starlight had a 2nd cook in the kitchen when they had the real plates and glassware? That was supposedly the reason for being able to have real dishes…enough staff to wash them. Haha. Or so I was told.


Correct.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Prominently displayed in the Albany station..




Actual dinner...




At least I paid for it with points...


----------



## lordsigma

Wouldn't the food specialists that are on the Superliner diners count as a second cook?


----------



## The Quaking Widow

cocojacoby said:


> _Here is a revised version of something I proposed two years ago on another website. Some of you might enjoy the concept:_
> 
> *THE ENTREPRENEURIAL CHEF*
> 
> Okay it's just an idea but what if Amtrak tries this?
> 
> Amtrak "gives away" it's dining car service to its chefs. Each chef gets to run their own dining service. They have control of what to order and what to serve. They can get as creative as they want. They make the menus and they set their own prices. They can hire the servers they know are good or make it a family affair like many mom and pop restaurants. They must open for at least traditional dining car hours but can also operate up to 24 hours if they want. They got a pretty good captive audience to sell to.
> 
> The entrepreneurial chef does not get paid by Amtrak but they get to keep the profits that they make. They get to run their own restaurant without the high risk and overhead expense. I am sure there are Amtrak chefs out there who have great ideas on how to run a dining car but never got the chance to do it. I can see a spirited competition between chefs generating some good press for Amtrak and maybe having people ride certain trains just for the different culinary experience. Each chef would have his or her own specialty dish along with some required items.
> 
> The cost to run the dining car for Amtrak would be minimal. Amtrak can proudly tell the story of the unique opportunity it has given to these hard working men and woman who toil very hard at their unique craft behind the scenes. I think this could be a pretty exciting opportunity for some hard working folks who would never get such a chance in their lifetime and great publicity for Amtrak.
> 
> Could it work? Why not give it a try?


Smart idea. I thought instantly of a great deli, like Corky and Lenny’s in Cleveland. That would be a great business on a train! Something with variety, hot and cold foods, soups, bread, deserts, yum!


----------



## OBS

lordsigma said:


> Wouldn't the food specialists that are on the Superliner diners count as a second cook?


yes, if they are there...


----------



## Sidney

Brian Battuello said:


> Prominently displayed in the Albany station..
> 
> View attachment 30203
> 
> 
> Actual dinner...
> 
> View attachment 30204
> 
> 
> At least I paid for it with points...


The wine looks good.
.


----------



## cocojacoby

Brian Battuello said:


> Prominently displayed in the Albany station..
> 
> View attachment 30203



I really love Art Deco. It is so great that the railroads loved it too!


----------



## JWM

railiner said:


> You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...just not the same. 6 waiters meant one serving two tables of four, or more if one was covering the Turquoise Room in the adjacent Pleasure Dome Lounge car.


Yes, they did and they never "ran into each other". It's a long time ago, but I remember. "Behind you, please".


----------



## railiner

JWM said:


> Yes, they did and they never "ran into each other". It's a long time ago, but I remember. "Behind you, please".


Right! It always amazed me at the skill of these waiters, balancing a tray laden with plates of food and drinks for a table of four on their hand, passing other waiters and sometimes passengers in the aisle, while rolling along at track speed on not always stellar rails…


----------



## jpakala

I'm so glad ash trays are nowhere to be seen but lament (most) passengers' dress today compared to back then. The Super Chief had finger bowls along with the fine glassware, china, silverware, and substantial snowy-white tablecloths. Every railroad had its own interesting china and there were so many railroad companies. How the dining car staffs ever performed so perfectly is very hard to understand, especially in view of the space limitation and movement of the train, including curves, switches, crossings, braking, and all the rest.


----------



## daybeers

Though their skill was impressive, don't forget that ride quality used to be much better. Some railroads offered haircuts and shaves to market the quality of their track.


----------



## railiner

daybeers said:


> Though their skill was impressive, don't forget that ride quality used to be much better. Some railroads offered haircuts and shaves to market the quality of their track.


You had to be brave to get a shave at track speed back then. And with a straight-edged razor!


----------



## TheCrescent

WWW said:


> About that first alcoholic drink being on Amtrak - the selection is extremely meager - check the Traditional and Flex dining menus for what
> is offered - while you can't boldly BYOB to the cafe dining car you can in your own sleeper - a good sleeper car attendant should be able to offer
> the fixin's !


I asked for a Maker’s Mark on the rocks (for my complimentary drink) was handed a mini bottle, which was warm. No glass and no ice. I was told that the drink was free and so what I received was correct.


----------



## Steve4031

A shave with a straight razor on a moving train . . . no thanks. One bad grade crossing or one poorly maintained switch interlocking . . . and I am carrying my head under my arm back to my roomette as I am now a ghost haunting the 20th century Limited . . .

On my first trip on the Canadian, I witnessed a waiter with a tray full of water do an NFL receiver-type move as he stepped out of the way of people passing in the aisle. He leaned over a table with the tray held above the passengers, while his feet remained firmly planted is the aisle. He maintained perfect control of the tray as the train rounded a super-elevated curve at speed. A catch inbounds for a first down.


----------



## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> I asked for a Maker’s Mark on the rocks (for my complimentary drink) was handed a mini bottle, which was warm. No glass and no ice. I was told that the drink was free and so what I received was correct.


Hoy cow, that's pretty tacky. I've never seen service that bad on all my Amtrak rides. Did they bring glasses and ice to people who ordered cans of soda?


----------



## MARC Rider

jpakala said:


> I'm so glad ash trays are nowhere to be seen but lament (most) passengers' dress today compared to back then. The Super Chief had finger bowls along with the fine glassware, china, silverware, and substantial snowy-white tablecloths. Every railroad had its own interesting china and there were so many railroad companies.


Remember, there was a lot more formality back then in general, and the Super Chief was an extra-fare train for richer people. And even on the lesser trains, dining car food was expensive enough that most travelers didn't use the dining car, but brought their own food. So the dining car was really only for the rich or the social climber. 

Personally, I'm glad all that formal stuff is "gone with the wind," especially the expectations of dress. It used to be one would have to carry a complete change of dress clothes (suit, dress shirt, tie, dress shoes or the equivalent for women) when traveling, which added weight and bulk to one's luggage. In addition, wearing a necktie is uncomfortable. My religion teaches "do not judge the container, but rather what is inside." Unfortunately, over most of human history, people have tended to judge others by trivial external appearances, and people who didn't have a lot of resources have always been left behind. If there was one good thing that has survived from the social upheavals of the 1960s and 1970s, it is that dress has become a lot more informal, there are fewer class distinction in dress, and men no longer have to wear neckties.


----------



## Brian Battuello

TheCrescent said:


> I asked for a Maker’s Mark on the rocks (for my complimentary drink) was handed a mini bottle, which was warm. No glass and no ice. I was told that the drink was free and so what I received was correct.



That's really unusual. There are a lot of problems with Amtrak, but I've found that the dining/cafe car attendants usually make a bit of an effort. 

FWIW, the cafe attendant that "plated" my most recent Amdinner did the best she could with what she had to work with.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> I asked for a Maker’s Mark on the rocks (for my complimentary drink) was handed a mini bottle, which was warm. No glass and no ice. I was told that the drink was free and so what I received was correct.


I ordered a gin and tonic and got a small bottle of gin and a plastic cup that had a tiny amount of tonic in it. I would have liked an entire cup of tonic water with ice… like everyone else serves it. Haha.


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> I ordered a gin and tonic and got a small bottle of gin and a plastic cup that had a tiny amount of tonic in it. I would have liked an entire cup of tonic water with ice… like everyone else serves it. Haha.


Did they manage to produce a wedge or two of lime?


----------



## Railspike

We decided to play Amtrak roulette for the first time since before COVID. Took the SL from LAX to HOS. Sleeper attendant (35-year veteran with Amtrak) was great. Diner staff was excellent and the food was very good. 

Now for the downside. Diner crew reported that no red wine was loaded on the train in LAX by the commissary. Huh?
Then reported that they were out of blueberry cheesecake at the first dinner seating. Huh? There had only been the day's earlier lunch seating where it could have been ordered. Commissary issue again. Somebody at the commissary needs to be relieved of their duty. No excuse. They have 3 LD trains to service out of LAX, 2 are daily. How do you not know how many of the items on the menu are required to service the diner on a given train? Do they not have a copy of the manifest? Are they afraid of spoilage? 

This did not spoil a very good trip but it emphasized the shortcomings of the commissary. One expects the items on the menu to be available, especially at the beginning of the trip. Again, no excuse. Incompetence.


----------



## TheCrescent

Brian Battuello said:


> That's really unusual. There are a lot of problems with Amtrak, but I've found that the dining/cafe car attendants usually make a bit of an effort.
> 
> FWIW, the cafe attendant that "plated" my most recent Amdinner did the best she could with what she had to work with.


In my case, the sleeping car attendant also brought the wrong entree with dinner. I took a look and declined, and told the sleeping car attendant that I was fine and didn’t need dinner.

The sleeping car attendant came back to my room, twice, to argue that I ought to eat what I was given and that I was in the wrong. Even after I had told him that I was fine and didn’t need anything.

What lovely service on Amtrak.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Railspike said:


> We decided to play Amtrak roulette for the first time since before COVID. Took the SL from LAX to HOS. Sleeper attendant (35-year veteran with Amtrak) was great. Diner staff was excellent and the food was very good.
> 
> Now for the downside. Diner crew reported that no red wine was loaded on the train in LAX by the commissary. Huh?
> Then reported that they were out of blueberry cheesecake at the first dinner seating. Huh? There had only been the day's earlier lunch seating where it could have been ordered. Commissary issue again. Somebody at the commissary needs to be relieved of their duty. No excuse. They have 3 LD trains to service out of LAX, 2 are daily. How do you not know how many of the items on the menu are required to service the diner on a given train? Do they not have a copy of the manifest? Are they afraid of spoilage?
> 
> This did not spoil a very good trip but it emphasized the shortcomings of the commissary. One expects the items on the menu to be available, especially at the beginning of the trip. Again, no excuse. Incompetence.


The commissaries always seem to be a roll of the dice.

I did a big circle trip over the summer, riding various different trains based out of various different commissaries. Notably on the SL, they had an excellent selection of entrees and deserts, but they did not stock any of the empanada appetizers. On the CZ, they had all the appetizers and desserts, but didn't have the pasta entree whatsoever. I also noticed some of the trains were using the terra chips instead of regular potato chips. Keep in mind, this was over a month after they had changed the menu.

One thing that I did have to applaud them on was not running out of food. As far as I could tell, all the entrees were available even on the dinner of the second day/lunch of the third day, which traditionally was an issue. (When I rode the empire builder in the spring, they were not serving desert to pax during lunch and still ended up running out of deserts by day 2 dinner). 

Luckily, these didn't ruin my trip, but I find it surprising when they don't stock a train with a given item whatsoever.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

fdaley said:


> Did they manage to produce a wedge or two of lime?


oh of course not! If I can’t get a full glass of tonic water I’m definitely not getting any lime. 

I stuck to wine in the diner after that.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

TheCrescent said:


> In my case, the sleeping car attendant also brought the wrong entree with dinner. I took a look and declined, and told the sleeping car attendant that I was fine and didn’t need dinner.
> 
> The sleeping car attendant came back to my room, twice, to argue that I ought to eat what I was given and that I was in the wrong. Even after I had told him that I was fine and didn’t need anything.
> 
> What lovely service on Amtrak.



“Eat up all of this wrong flex meal that I’ve decided you should have. Or you won’t get a nice butter cake dessert.”


----------



## lordsigma

Railspike said:


> We decided to play Amtrak roulette for the first time since before COVID. Took the SL from LAX to HOS. Sleeper attendant (35-year veteran with Amtrak) was great. Diner staff was excellent and the food was very good.
> 
> Now for the downside. Diner crew reported that no red wine was loaded on the train in LAX by the commissary. Huh?
> Then reported that they were out of blueberry cheesecake at the first dinner seating. Huh? There had only been the day's earlier lunch seating where it could have been ordered. Commissary issue again. Somebody at the commissary needs to be relieved of their duty. No excuse. They have 3 LD trains to service out of LAX, 2 are daily. How do you not know how many of the items on the menu are required to service the diner on a given train? Do they not have a copy of the manifest? Are they afraid of spoilage?
> 
> This did not spoil a very good trip but it emphasized the shortcomings of the commissary. One expects the items on the menu to be available, especially at the beginning of the trip. Again, no excuse. Incompetence.



It’s highly unlikely they ran out of the cake or red wine at lunch or that they miscalculated what to load on the train and were worried about spoilage - they likely either failed to load that item at all or, probably a bit more likely, didn’t have it in stock at the commissary. It may be an ordering mix up at the commissary or it may also be a supplier issue - the cake supplier simply may not have delivered the blueberry cheesecake. Impossible to know - the commissaries are run by one of the biggest outsourced food service providers in the US. When I rode the Chief west bound recently they also didn’t have the blueberry cheesecake though they had a plain cheesecake as a substitute. Could be something with that specific menu item - again impossible to know. Red wine likely also simply wasn’t loaded - again possibly be accident or possibly because the commissary ran out.


----------



## Rasputin

Perhaps I do not understand the point of some of the comments but I have been on more than one Amtrak trip where a desert selection that was available early in the trip is not available on the second day of the trip. I would say that either an insufficient number of servings of that selection was loaded or that selection proved to be unexpectedly popular and in demand on that trip.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I ordered a gin and tonic and got a small bottle of gin and a plastic cup that had a tiny amount of tonic in it. I would have liked an entire cup of tonic water with ice… like everyone else serves it. Haha.


Actually every time I've ordered a G&T on Amtrak, they serve the single serving bottle of gin, a cup full of ice, and a whole can of tonic water.


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> Perhaps I do not understand the point of some of the comments but I have been on more than one Amtrak trip where a desert selection that was available early in the trip is not available on the second day of the trip. I would say that either an insufficient number of servings of that selection was loaded or that selection proved to be unexpectedly popular and in demand on that trip.


In this case it wasn’t available on the first dinner - it’s highly unlikely they ran out of it after the first lunch.


----------



## TheCrescent

Mystic River Dragon said:


> “Eat up all of this wrong flex meal that I’ve decided you should have. Or you won’t get a nice butter cake dessert.”


The butter cakes are good, but I wasn’t given a choice: dinner came with a brownie. At 4:30pm.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Actually every time I've ordered a G&T on Amtrak, they serve the single serving bottle of gin, a cup full of ice, and a whole can of tonic water.


You must know how to get the 1st class service  haha.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> You must know how to get the 1st class service  haha.


Just a regular cafe car on the Northeast Regional during the pandemic (September 2020). I will say that the attendant tried to get me to take two of those little bottles of gin. At first I thought he meant that they were running some kind of special with doubles for the price of a regular drink, but subsequent discussion made me realize that I would have to pay another $8. I do credit the cafe attendant with trying to upsell to me and improve Amtrak's bottom line, but then again, I was driving home from the station when I arrived in Baltimore, so maybe a double wouldn't have been a good idea.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Just a regular cafe car on the Northeast Regional during the pandemic (September 2020). I will say that the attendant tried to get me to take two of those little bottles of gin. At first I thought he meant that they were running some kind of special with doubles for the price of a regular drink, but subsequent discussion made me realize that I would have to pay another $8. I do credit the cafe attendant with trying to upsell to me and improve Amtrak's bottom line, but then again, I was driving home from the station when I arrived in Baltimore, so maybe a double wouldn't have been a good idea.


My last flight with American I got a triple shot of baileys - and I wasn’t even in 1st, just “main cabin extra” - I thought I was royalty!!!!


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

lordsigma said:


> It’s highly unlikely they ran out of the cake or red wine at lunch or that they miscalculated what to load on the train and were worried about spoilage - they likely either failed to load that item at all or, probably a bit more likely, didn’t have it in stock at the commissary. It may be an ordering mix up at the commissary or it may also be a supplier issue - the cake supplier simply may not have delivered the blueberry cheesecake. Impossible to know - the commissaries are run by one of the biggest outsourced food service providers in the US. When I rode the Chief west bound recently they also didn’t have the blueberry cheesecake though they had a plain cheesecake as a substitute. Could be something with that specific menu item - again impossible to know. Red wine likely also simply wasn’t loaded - again possibly be accident or possibly because the commissary ran out.


It should be noted that lately I have encountered shortages of various food items at supermarkets and some restaurants, most likely due to supply chain issues. So it may not be totally Amtrak's fault. Although given the "Russian Roulette" nature of much of Amtrak service it is difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> It should be noted that lately I have encountered shortages of various food items at supermarkets and some restaurants, most likely due to supply chain issues. So it may not be totally Amtrak's fault. Although given the "Russian Roulette" nature of much of Amtrak service it is difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Seems like people are blaming the commissary vendor more than Amtrak. They might be able to hide behind the supply chain for missing items, but not for delivering frozen or wilted salads.


----------



## Hans627

We have reservation on train 92 from FL to BAL next week and we are curious as to what the latest food service provision are. Any information appreciated.

Thanks!


----------



## joelkfla

Assuming you have a room: Preplated, reheated meals in foil containers for lunch & dinner (same menu for both), similar to frozen meals you might buy at the supermarket. For breakfast, a couple of reheated hot items and a small selection of prepackaged "continental breakfast" items, including cold cereal, instant presweetened oatmeal, and usually a muffin. Food can be delivered to your room, or you can eat in the dining car, but in most cases there's no table service, you pick up your food at the galley door and carry it to your table yourself. Your car attendant will take your order and assign a time for lunch & dinner.









Amtrak Flexible Dining







www.amtrak.com





If you're in coach, you only have access to the cafe car, not the diner.









Amtrak Café Service


On many short-distance trains, food service is available in the Café Car, featuring table seating. Food service is normally available from early morning until late evening.




www.amtrak.com


----------



## MARC Rider

This is inconsistent, but if you are in a sleeper and partaking of flex dining, sometimes the dining car attendant will serve you. Of the past 10 flex meals I've had since 2019, 8 of them have been served to me and 2 I had to pick up at the counter.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> This is inconsistent, but if you are in a sleeper and partaking of flex dining, sometimes the dining car attendant will serve you. Of the past 10 flex meals I've had since 2019, 8 of them have been served to me and 2 I had to pick up at the counter.


I did get table service a few years ago, but on all 4 of my trips on the Silver Star this year it was self-service, though on my last trip the LSA carried breakfast to the table for me when I said I would have to make 2 trips for the 2 trays. She also was the only one to put the tableware pack, salt & pepper, and cream & sugar for coffee on the tray instead of setting them out to pick up at a table, so clearly an above average LSA.


----------



## Hans627

Thanks!

I had thought I read somewhere that dining car service will return with china and silverware. Is that one on just some trains and was I dreaming?


----------



## lordsigma

Hans627 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I had thought I read somewhere that dining car service will return with china and silverware. Is that one on just some trains and was I dreaming?


They did state that when traditional dining was restored however it still hasn’t shown up yet - whether it’s still the plan I’m unsure. You will typically see the metal silverware on board.


----------



## OBS

lordsigma said:


> They did state that when traditional dining was restored however it still hasn’t shown up yet - whether it’s still the plan I’m unsure. You will typically see the metal silverware on board.


Probably waiting for the staffing to be built up enough to add second person in kitchen to handle dishwashing duties.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Hans627 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I had thought I read somewhere that dining car service will return with china and silverware. Is that one on just some trains and was I dreaming?


On the western trains you will see silverware and fresh flowers as well as tablecloth and cloth napkin for dinner. The plates are the hard plastic plates that look like Amtrak China, to me these are perfectly acceptable. 

Glassware is inconsistently used for alcoholic drinks as well.


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## Rambling Robert

The LSA on the Capitol Ltd (30) 10/29/22 set me up with iced coffee and allowed me to sit in the non-employee section aka sleeper class. I put $3 in the tip tray and had my bagel and cream cheese delivered to my table. As sleepers arrived he took their order in sort of a classy way. Oh was I happy Coach diner with the iced coffee - the ice did NOT melt!

After breakfast, Harper’s Ferry Bridge -


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Is there any truth to the continued rumors regarding the restoration of traditional dining on the Silver Service trains? The YouTube channel “Grounded Life Travel” did a Q&A yesterday and it seems someone knowledgeable on the subject reported this change is in the works!


----------



## jis

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Is there any truth to the continued rumors regarding the restoration of traditional dining on the Silver Service trains? The YouTube channel “Grounded Life Travel” did a Q&A yesterday and it seems someone knowledgeable on the subject reported this change is in the works!


The Amtrak representative who spoke at the RPA Fall Council Meeting pretty much said unequivocally that it is in the works. I don't know how much clearer a message could be.


----------



## Sidney

A facebook poster who was on the Meteor yesterday told him traditional dining will return to both Silver trains next month. We can only hope.


----------



## MARC Rider

Rambling Robert said:


> The LSA on the Capitol Ltd (30) 10/29/22 set me up with iced coffee and allowed me to sit in the non-employee section aka sleeper class. I put $3 in the tip tray and had my bagel and cream cheese delivered to my table. As sleepers arrived he took their order in sort of a classy way. Oh was I happy Coach diner with the iced coffee - the ice did NOT melt!
> 
> After breakfast, Harper’s Ferry Bridge -
> View attachment 30298


I rode the Capitol Limited in Coach, Pittsburgh to Washington, and the cafe attendant had no problem with me sitting in the coach end of the Cross-Country Cafe car (i.e., the "dining car") while I ate the breakfast I bought there.


----------



## joelkfla

Sidney said:


> A facebook poster who was on the Meteor yesterday told him traditional dining will return to both Silver trains next month. We can only hope.


I can only hope it's the _first _of the month, or at least the first Monday for my return leg.


----------



## Willbridge

lordsigma said:


> It’s highly unlikely they ran out of the cake or red wine at lunch or that they miscalculated what to load on the train and were worried about spoilage - they likely either failed to load that item at all or, probably a bit more likely, didn’t have it in stock at the commissary. It may be an ordering mix up at the commissary or it may also be a supplier issue - the cake supplier simply may not have delivered the blueberry cheesecake. Impossible to know - the commissaries are run by one of the biggest outsourced food service providers in the US. When I rode the Chief west bound recently they also didn’t have the blueberry cheesecake though they had a plain cheesecake as a substitute. Could be something with that specific menu item - again impossible to know. Red wine likely also simply wasn’t loaded - again possibly be accident or possibly because the commissary ran out.


The same sorts of supplier shortfalls have happened at the retirement home where I live. Just as on Amtrak, the service problem is confounded when employees try to substitute items without asking the customer first -- or as on Russian trains -- the customer is handed a beautiful menu and then it turns out that the items were never on that day's train. OBS training needs to include ways of coping with this.


----------



## lordsigma

Have heard some reports that on the Coast Starlight they are now offering reservations in the dining car to all coach passengers not just business. Has anyone else heard reports of this?


----------



## joelkfla

On RPA webinar just completed, Amtrak VP said Silvers' traditional dining would be early 2023 (ergo, not December). Also, they want to open dining car to coach passengers on more than just the CS, but they're still working thru issues.

Also explicitly said there are no firm plans to restore traditional dining to other Eastern trains beyond the Silvers, in response to mention of Crescent by Jim Mathews.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Also explicitly said there are no firm plans to restore traditional dining to other Eastern trains beyond the Silvers, in response to mention of Crescent by Jim Mathews.


I thought the answer was specific to the Crescent, but I may have misheard.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> I thought the answer was specific to the Crescent, but I may have misheard.


Before the Crescent he did say something about there not being a commitment at this time to routes outside the Silver service and the routes which currently already have traditional dining. 

It's important to note that the food and beverage working group that RPA is part of hasn't finished up and hasn't yet made its recommendations so while I suspect the Silvers is all we'll see in FY23 it doesn't mean that flex dining is here to stay forever elsewhere. I suspect any final long term decision making on food service formats would not be made until they have those recommendations in hand given the congressional mandate for them to participate in that process. Additionally Amtrak (in fact I believe it was Chestler himself) previously stated when they returned traditional dining out west that they had no plans to return it to anywhere else - and now it's coming back to the Silvers which back in 2019 none of us probably would have thought was going to happen.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Before the Crescent he did say something about there not being a commitment at this time to routes outside the Silver service and the routes which currently already have traditional dining.


Well, operationally there is a difference between LSL and the Crescent. LSL already has the necessary hard product (Viewliner Diner) in it, the Crescent does not, and they do not have enough Diners until they get them out of Mothballs to equip the Crescent with the necessary hard product. It is much easier to launch a soft product on an available compatible hard product than in the absence of it. Cardinal of course never really had full service Dining in the recent or even distant past, so it is an entirely different kettle of fish. 

With all Diners on the road they actually should have enough to even equip the Card with Diner and full dining service. But this being Amtrak I am sure there will be many cogent excuses not to do so. Afterall the motto has been we shall never extend any service that we are not dragged into by our ankles kicking and screaming. Maybe the F&B committee report will be the agent for doing the pulling by the ankle kicking and screaming this time around


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

I understand loosing corporate knowledge but Amtrak has served coach passengers in the diner for fifty (50) years. The prototype program going on with the Coast Starlight now changes the previous dining experience by making it a set price for a 3 course meal. Applebees or Fridays could have done this by printing a new menu card and sending a memo to store employees emplamenting it a few days later. It’s not much different than the 2 for $20 or I guess now the 2 for $26 they have been offering for over a decade or two.

Amtrak has every right and responsibility to simplify and find a solution for dining on the non premier trains, Eagle, Crescent, Cardinal, etc, but they’re intentionally dragging their feet on bringing coach pax back to the diner on western trains in my opinion. There’s no out of the box thinking, it just seems to be a menu change with new prices when all is said and done. Maybe I will be wrong and they will offer take out service, pre paid meal vouchers, drink packages like on a cruise $10 a day for all the soft drinks you want. Time will tell or time will just go on.


----------



## Steve4031

The process of hiring and training people is taking longer than expected. Even so, I would be happier to hear something to the effect that once we have the employees to staff the trains and the equipment prepared to go, we will return to complete dining car service on all overnight trains.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

I was going over some old webpages specifically about the DW and Pioneer and it got my thinking about the current Texas Eagle. Neither the Pioneer or DW ran with a lounge car when they were daily trains. I was a teen at the time but rode both trains a few times. The half diner/half lounge seemed to do ok. I remember sitting in the lounge side of the diner playing games, reading etc. No one complained and the trips were good. Back then the On Board Chief would have bingo games in the half lounge as well, the prizes were free meals in the diner side for coach passengers. I won a game but we were in the sleepers so they kept playing until a coach passenger won.

The consists and route lengths were basically the same as the Texas Eagle. So why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?

Obviously flexible dining is an issue. But as far as the actual lounge, could it be the CCC that’s the main issue? Would a regular diner with more lounge seating be a better fit? Half of a true diner that has 8 tables and seating for 32 people is definitely better than the lounge end of the CCC that has a couple awkward booths that apparently are only used by the conductors.
For those that never rode in Superliner Diner/lounge it was just a normal diner with a semi permanent bar table like a cash bar at a wedding installed at one end. The Pioneer and DW are proof the one service car concept can work on non premier trains if emplamented correctly. 

Diners are probably as scarce as everything else right now but I think that’s the way to go in some form.


----------



## Willbridge

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I was going over some old webpages specifically about the DW and Pioneer and it got my thinking about the current Texas Eagle. Neither the Pioneer or DW ran with a lounge car when they were daily trains. I was a teen at the time but rode both trains a few times. The half diner/half lounge seemed to do ok. I remember sitting in the lounge side of the diner playing games, reading etc. No one complained and the trips were good. Back then the On Board Chief would have bingo games in the half lounge as well, the prizes were free meals in the diner side for coach passengers. I won a game but we were in the sleepers so they kept playing until a coach passenger won.
> 
> The consists and route lengths were basically the same as the Texas Eagle. So why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?
> 
> Obviously flexible dining is an issue. But as far as the actual lounge, could it be the CCC that’s the main issue? Would a regular diner with more lounge seating be a better fit? Half of a true diner that has 8 tables and seating for 32 people is definitely better than the lounge end of the CCC that has a couple awkward booths that apparently are only used by the conductors.
> For those that never rode in Superliner Diner/lounge it was just a normal diner with a semi permanent bar table like a cash bar at a wedding installed at one end. The Pioneer and DW are proof the one service car concept can work on non premier trains if emplamented correctly.
> 
> Diners are probably as scarce as everything else right now but I think that’s the way to go in some form.


I dug up this consist for the _Pioneer_. It's from the tri-weekly period, but shows a regular diner being used as a lounge.



Here's a _Desert Wind _consist for Train 36 reported at Fullerton on January 8,1993 when it was running daily. A similar consist was reported on January 10.

2 F40's, 33017 as diner lounge, 2 coaches, 1 coach-baggage, 1 sleeper (all Superliners). It had a lot of coach traffic between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.


----------



## IndyLions

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I was going over some old webpages specifically about the DW and Pioneer and it got my thinking about the current Texas Eagle. Neither the Pioneer or DW ran with a lounge car when they were daily trains. I was a teen at the time but rode both trains a few times. The half diner/half lounge seemed to do ok. I remember sitting in the lounge side of the diner playing games, reading etc. No one complained and the trips were good. Back then the On Board Chief would have bingo games in the half lounge as well, the prizes were free meals in the diner side for coach passengers. I won a game but we were in the sleepers so they kept playing until a coach passenger won.
> 
> The consists and route lengths were basically the same as the Texas Eagle. So why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?
> 
> Obviously flexible dining is an issue. But as far as the actual lounge, could it be the CCC that’s the main issue? Would a regular diner with more lounge seating be a better fit? Half of a true diner that has 8 tables and seating for 32 people is definitely better than the lounge end of the CCC that has a couple awkward booths that apparently are only used by the conductors.
> For those that never rode in Superliner Diner/lounge it was just a normal diner with a semi permanent bar table like a cash bar at a wedding installed at one end. The Pioneer and DW are proof the one service car concept can work on non premier trains if emplamented correctly.
> 
> Diners are probably as scarce as everything else right now but I think that’s the way to go in some form.



Why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?

This is my opinion only - but it comes down to the Board / Management’s attitude towards long distance. Their words say they care - their actions say they don’t.

When all the incentives are based around cost cutting - the current situation is what you get.

Until someone at the top actually cares about running long distance trains *well* - expect lip service and marginal improvements at best.


----------



## MARC Rider

IndyLions said:


> Why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?
> 
> This is my opinion only - but it comes down to the Board / Management’s attitude towards long distance. Their words say they care - their actions say they don’t.


If management really hated long distance, they wouldn't have restored traditional dining to the Zephyr, Chief, Builder, Starlight, and Sunset. They also wouldn't be planning the imminent upgrades of food service on the Silvers.

The problem seems to be that the Texas Eagle (plus the Crescent, the Capitol Limited, and the Lake Shore Limited) is getting the short end. Management must have other reasons for prioritizing service improvements on the long-distance trains the way they do.

If I were management, my priority for the long-distance trains would be ensuring reliability of the equipment so there are no delays caused by breakdowns of Amtrak equipment. My next priority would be hassling with the host railroads to improve their dispatching and eliminating preventable delays on their part. After that, I would try to inculcate a OBS culture that minimizes passengers complaining about nasty, rude OBS employees. After all those, _then I_ might worry about improving the food.


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## Steve4031

The best way of improving service on the texas eagle would be to convert the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans to single level equipment and use those superliner to improve capacity in the texas eagle and get rid of flex dining.


----------



## lordsigma

L


MARC Rider said:


> If management really hated long distance, they wouldn't have restored traditional dining to the Zephyr, Chief, Builder, Starlight, and Sunset. They also wouldn't be planning the imminent upgrades of food service on the Silvers.
> 
> The problem seems to be that the Texas Eagle (plus the Crescent, the Capitol Limited, and the Lake Shore Limited) is getting the short end. Management must have other reasons for prioritizing service improvements on the long-distance trains the way they do.
> 
> If I were management, my priority for the long-distance trains would be ensuring reliability of the equipment so there are no delays caused by breakdowns of Amtrak equipment. My next priority would be hassling with the host railroads to improve their dispatching and eliminating preventable delays on their part. After that, I would try to inculcate a OBS culture that minimizes passengers complaining about nasty, rude OBS employees. After all those, _then I_ might worry about improving the food.


Lake Shore is actually treated pretty well and service on board is pretty good. While it isn’t slated for traditional dining restoration at this time it has one of the least meal periods so it’s understandable it wouldn’t be a huge priority for that and in other areas it seems to be a higher priority than the Capitol or crescent. It’s running with a viewliner 2 diner, has 3 sleepers reliably. and compared to other trains a decent amount of coaches and one of the few LD trains where they’ve added coaches to meet demand. It’s definitely the preferred train by management for East - Chicago and is definitely on the “A” list as far as priority. I’d define the “B” trains (the ones management doesn’t seem to know what to do with) as the Eagle, the Crescent, the Cardinal, and the City of New Orleans.


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## IndyLions

Qualify food service, on-time performance, good equipment condition, positive employee attitude, using new equipment (you already own) to provide a better customer experience. 

These are all things they don’t prioritize that makes it obvious management has no interest in running LD trains *well*.

They run them because Congress says they must. And their actions indicate they will do as little as they can get away with while doing so.


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## jis

Steve4031 said:


> The best way of improving service on the texas eagle would be to convert the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans to single level equipment and use those superliner to improve capacity in the texas eagle and get rid of flex dining.


And where is all the necessary single level equipment (specially Sleepers, Diners and Lounges) going to come from before the LD equipment replacement happens? It may be easier to fix the 60 or so Superliners that are awaiting restoration to service.


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## Steve4031

That's true too. I typed before thinking. I know there are a stash of viewliners on Miami.


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## jis

Steve4031 said:


> That's true too. I typed before thinking. I know there are a stash of viewliners on Miami.


Barely enough to add one more Viewliner to each of the current single level trains.


----------



## Rizla Ronnie

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Looks like I may have to take you up on your offer.
> Three days later no reply to my polite email.
> They really don't care do they ?



Three months later an email arrives offering $400 in travel vouchers - about half the cost of our trip - for the disruption over our trip.
So I guess the obvious question - any suggestions for anything similar to the CZ around which we can plan another trip because apart from the food issues we really enjoyed our SF to Chicago journey.


----------



## jis

Rizla Ronnie said:


> Three months later an email arrives offering $400 in travel vouchers - about half the cost of our trip - for the disruption over our trip.
> So I guess the obvious question - any suggestions for anything similar to the CZ around which we can plan another trip because apart from the food issues we really enjoyed our SF to Chicago journey.


As I recall you wanted to complain about your food experience, which I presume you did. Do you seriously expect to get compensated for your entire trip just because of your food experience? Was there additional disruption which was not mentioned by you? I traced back to the original message and could not find anything.


----------



## marcoloco

IndyLions said:


> Why is the Texas Eagle such a failure now?
> 
> This is my opinion only - but it comes down to the Board / Management’s attitude towards long distance. Their words say they care - their actions say they don’t.
> 
> When all the incentives are based around cost cutting - the current situation is what you get.
> 
> Until someone at the top actually cares about running long distance trains *well* - expect lip service and marginal improvements at best.


Keep in mind that right now, Amtrak is still in "Covid" mode. They are still not letting coach passengers eat in the dining car and other cutbacks are still in effect. Amtrak was unable to cash in on the high gas prices, because of being stuck in "Covid" mode. I'm the most frequent traveler on the Sunset Limited from Texas and sleeping car space is very hard to get since they took off one of our sleepers. We are all waiting for Amtrak to pull out of "covid" mode and get back to "normal" pre-covid mode. They have the equipment and plenty of it. Pay no attention to "equipment shortages". Once something is cut in Amtrak, it's very, very, very hard (if not impossible), to get it back. I make about 10 round trip annually in the sleeping car from Houston to LAX and Amtrak listens to me NO MORE than they will listen to a new first time or less frequent passenger (customer). Amtrak is still the best way to travel, I recommend it to everyone, but the more you ride it, the more you get to know AMTRAK, the way it operates, the inefficiencies, etc.


----------



## fdaley

MARC Rider said:


> If I were management, my priority for the long-distance trains would be ensuring reliability of the equipment so there are no delays caused by breakdowns of Amtrak equipment. My next priority would be hassling with the host railroads to improve their dispatching and eliminating preventable delays on their part. After that, I would try to inculcate a OBS culture that minimizes passengers complaining about nasty, rude OBS employees. After all those, _then I_ might worry about improving the food.


I think Amtrak's management maybe needs to be able to focus on more than one priority at a time. If we're going to wait to resolve all freight-related delays _and_ poor on-board service culture first, none of us will live long enough to see dining service restored on any additional trains.


----------



## joelkfla

marcoloco said:


> Keep in mind that right now, Amtrak is still in "Covid" mode. They are still not letting coach passengers eat in the dining car and other cutbacks are still in effect. Amtrak was unable to cash in on the high gas prices, because of being stuck in "Covid" mode. I'm the most frequent traveler on the Sunset Limited from Texas and sleeping car space is very hard to get since they took off one of our sleepers. We are all waiting for Amtrak to pull out of "covid" mode and get back to "normal" pre-covid mode. They have the equipment and plenty of it. Pay no attention to "equipment shortages". Once something is cut in Amtrak, it's very, very, very hard (if not impossible), to get it back. I make about 10 round trip annually in the sleeping car from Houston to LAX and Amtrak listens to me NO MORE than they will listen to a new first time or less frequent passenger (customer). Amtrak is still the best way to travel, I recommend it to everyone, but the more you ride it, the more you get to know AMTRAK, the way it operates, the inefficiencies, etc.


More like "We can't find enough people who want to work for us" mode.

Or maybe, "We can't figure out how to work the hiring process" mode.


----------



## TheCrescent

joelkfla said:


> More like "We can't find enough people who want to work for us" mode.
> 
> Or maybe, "We can't figure out how to work the hiring process" mode.


If Amtrak doesn’t have enough on-board employees, who are the people wearing Amtrak uniforms who take up every table on the cafe car in the Crescent, engaged in conversation, who shoo off passengers who try to sit at a table?


----------



## Amtrak709

TheCrescent said:


> If Amtrak doesn’t have enough on-board employees, who are the people wearing Amtrak uniforms who take up every table on the cafe car in the Crescent, engaged in conversation, who shoo off passengers who try to sit at a table?


Even though W. Graham Claytor Jr. has been gone nearly 30 years, there are times I wish I could conjure up his ghost and spirit to deal with these employees on the Crescent. If Mr. Claytor were alive today and still riding "his train", he would too! I have been on the Crescent nearly 100 times since 1998--mostly ATN-WAS-ATN. The service level decline is sad to say the least.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

fdaley said:


> I think Amtrak's management maybe needs to be able to focus on more than one priority at a time. If we're going to wait to resolve all freight-related delays _and_ poor on-board service culture first, none of us will live long enough to see dining service restored on any additional trains.


I think managements lack of clarity and lack of management for that matter was summed up by Long Distance VP Chester’s Zoom interview with RPA last week. He hemmed and hawed about capacity reductions and couldn’t give a _precise_ timeline for improvements. A few days later the 3rd sleeper returned to the CZ and SWC. If he was aware of it my guess is he would have mentioned and touted it. Perhaps it’s an honest oversight but it’s what we’ve come to expect.


----------



## joelkfla

TheCrescent said:


> If Amtrak doesn’t have enough on-board employees, who are the people wearing Amtrak uniforms who take up every table on the cafe car in the Crescent, engaged in conversation, who shoo off passengers who try to sit at a table?


I dunno, but the reason Amtrak keeps stating is that they don't have enough people to fix the equipment, and/or they don't have enough OBS to staff the trains.


----------



## Rasputin

The dog not only ate the instructions on how to repair the equipment but also the instructions on how to staff and run the on board service. Amtrak management is clearly blameless.


----------



## daybeers

Steve4031 said:


> The process of hiring and training people is taking longer than expected.


I believe this is mostly the fault of Amtrak's HR department.

Amtrak cared enough to start running 10-car Regionals on the NEC this past Friday.


----------



## river

river said:


> I too was on the CONO this past week from Chicago to New Orleans and back in a bedroom (in the sleeper car).
> 
> We were supposed to have FLEX dining. Not only did we NOT have a dining car either way--there was NO Amtrak food loaded onto the trains before departure for the sleeper cars either southbound or northbound.
> 
> On Southbound trip : We were offered a breakfast sandwich or a muffin for breakfast from the cafe car. For lunch we received a boxed sub, chips, and cookie from a deli in Mississippi they brought in on a stop.
> 
> Northbound several days later we departed mid afternoon and flex dining menus were personally handed out to each room by an attendant going through the sleeper as we were departing NOLA.
> Well that was an OOPS! Another attendant shortly thereafter came around and said SORRY-- NO supper was loaded onto the train so we will stop and get subs from the same Mississippi deli place as before. I asked for a glass of wine for dinner with my sub. Was told it wasn't available.
> For breakfast it was the same muffin or breakfast sandwich offering--which we didn't even bother with.
> 
> That's not what I wanted or planned to eat.
> 
> I paid for flex dining with a menu --which was not provided. I will plan to contact customer service about this and request a refund for food and services not provided.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this kind of situation?



Well--Finally!!! (See above entry)
TODAY I received a response to my email to Amtrak regarding the (lack of) meals on the north and southbound CONO from Chicago to NOLA. I sent my email on 8/14/22. So more than 3 MONTHS later I receive a nice extended response and a $700 voucher for future travel. So I'm happy with that! I practically forgot about my complaint, but remembered I'd let you know how it all turned out.


----------



## river

I had reserved one bedroom and two roomettes both ways as additional companions went as well. I think the $700 covers everyone's meals plus a plumbing issue in our bedroom.


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## lordsigma

daybeers said:


> I believe this is mostly the fault of Amtrak's HR department.
> 
> Amtrak cared enough to start running 10-car Regionals on the NEC this past Friday.


Amtrak HR may be a contributing factor but I think it’s mostly the fault of a crappy labor market, lots of turnover and washouts during onboarding, and the lengthy ness of the onboarding process. They’re hiring plenty of people but many aren’t making it through to active service. The percentage of washouts is pretty bad by most accounts.


----------



## daybeers

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak HR may be a contributing factor but I think it’s mostly the fault of a crappy labor market, lots of turnover and washouts during onboarding, and the lengthy ness of the onboarding process. They’re hiring plenty of people but many aren’t making it through to active service. The percentage of washouts is pretty bad by most accounts.


I know first and second hand that most of these issues are caused by the HR department. Communication is terrible and they drag on the hiring process while expecting candidates to be able to accept an offer quickly and move across the country on the company's schedule. Who has enough savings to sit around for weeks or months on end waiting to be accepted?


----------



## lordsigma

daybeers said:


> I know first and second hand that most of these issues are caused by the HR department. Communication is terrible and they drag on the hiring process while expecting candidates to be able to accept an offer quickly and move across the country on the company's schedule. Who has enough savings to sit around for weeks or months on end waiting to be accepted?


Probably because the particular posting group had a lot of candidates and they are going through a large list of candidates. Just because one individual or another doesn’t get a response for a particular job doesn’t mean they aren’t hiring or that other people aren’t getting called. I’m not saying their HR is efficient but I don’t think that’s the main reason for staff shortages. They’re bringing plenty of people in from the street I think the bigger problem is they are losing a lot of people through attrition as there aren’t a lot of experienced candidates out there in this market and so they have to then open up another class of candidates for the same job over and over again. Blowing the drug testing is also a big contributor to the wash outs.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> Probably because the particular posting group had a lot of candidates and they are going through a large list of candidates. Just because one individual or another doesn’t get a response for a particular job doesn’t mean they aren’t hiring or that other people aren’t getting called. I’m not saying their HR is efficient but I don’t think that’s the main reason for staff shortages. They’re bringing plenty of people in from the street I think the bigger problem is they are losing a lot of people through attrition as there aren’t a lot of experienced candidates out there in this market and so they have to then open up another class of candidates for the same job over and over again. Blowing the drug testing is also a big contributor to the wash outs.


Yeah, but there have been reports here of people applying, being told at the interview that they looked good, and then hearing nothing until suddenly being contacted months later for training. That's bad HR.


----------



## Leex

In line with the title of this thread: does anyone have their ear to the ground (or rail; remember the really old Westerns?) to be able to prognosticate as to whether traditional dining will return to the Capitol Limited by late April? I would like to make some plans but flex meals are a deal breaker.


----------



## jis

Leex said:


> In line with the title of this thread: does anyone have their ear to the ground (or rail; remember the really old Westerns?) to be able to prognosticate as to whether traditional dining will return to the Capitol Limited by late April? I would like to make some plans but flex meals are a deal breaker.


If we are lucky we might know the answer by late March at the RPA Spring Council Meeting where as usual there will be at least one Senior Amtrak person present. I guess let us see how the traaditional Dining deployment on Silver Service comes along first.


----------



## fillyjonk

I traveled on the eastern leg of the Texas Eagle (MIN-BNL and back) this past week. Going up, the dining room was (except for the "flex meals") much like old times, with community seating. Coming back, different crew, they spaced us so that each person/couple was alone at a table. They seemed to encourage taking the meals in one's room, but that doesn't work so well for breakfast if your bed's not been made up into seats. The pasta meal is not terrible (but not great) but I tried the pancakes and sausage coming back and ugh, I guess I stick to the "yogurt and oatmeal" choice off the "Continental" breakfast (a sandwich AND muffin on top of that is too much). The TE still seems understaffed; they have one person staffing the dining car as a "public facing" person and one person down in the "kitchen" (not sure what all they do now, microwave the meals I guess? The pancakes and sausage were clearly microwaved, with the weird tough spots microwaved food can get)

I miss the traditional meals but this is the route I take, so I guess "you get what you get and you don't get upset"


----------



## MARC Rider

fillyjonk said:


> I traveled on the eastern leg of the Texas Eagle (MIN-BNL and back) this past week. Going up, the dining room was (except for the "flex meals") much like old times, with community seating. Coming back, different crew, they spaced us so that each person/couple was alone at a table. They seemed to encourage taking the meals in one's room, but that doesn't work so well for breakfast if your bed's not been made up into seats. The pasta meal is not terrible (but not great) but I tried the pancakes and sausage coming back and ugh, I guess I stick to the "yogurt and oatmeal" choice off the "Continental" breakfast (a sandwich AND muffin on top of that is too much). The TE still seems understaffed; they have one person staffing the dining car as a "public facing" person and one person down in the "kitchen" (not sure what all they do now, microwave the meals I guess? The pancakes and sausage were clearly microwaved, with the weird tough spots microwaved food can get)
> 
> I miss the traditional meals but this is the route I take, so I guess "you get what you get and you don't get upset"


Did they let you hang out in the diner-lounge outside of the meal periods? (Like they're supposed to.)


----------



## lordsigma

fillyjonk said:


> I traveled on the eastern leg of the Texas Eagle (MIN-BNL and back) this past week. Going up, the dining room was (except for the "flex meals") much like old times, with community seating. Coming back, different crew, they spaced us so that each person/couple was alone at a table. They seemed to encourage taking the meals in one's room, but that doesn't work so well for breakfast if your bed's not been made up into seats. The pasta meal is not terrible (but not great) but I tried the pancakes and sausage coming back and ugh, I guess I stick to the "yogurt and oatmeal" choice off the "Continental" breakfast (a sandwich AND muffin on top of that is too much). The TE still seems understaffed; they have one person staffing the dining car as a "public facing" person and one person down in the "kitchen" (not sure what all they do now, microwave the meals I guess? The pancakes and sausage were clearly microwaved, with the weird tough spots microwaved food can get)
> 
> I miss the traditional meals but this is the route I take, so I guess "you get what you get and you don't get upset"


I found the pancakes and sausage meal good on the lake shore. I’m guessing the difference is microwaving vs oven (it was clearly not microwaved on the lake shore.)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I found the pancakes and sausage meal good on the lake shore. I’m guessing the difference is microwaving vs oven (it was clearly not microwaved on the lake shore.)


Why would it be prepared differently from one train to the next?


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why would it be prepared differently from one train to the next?


Why would it be different than everything else on Amtrak? The staff do whatever they please.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I found the pancakes and sausage meal good on the lake shore. I’m guessing the difference is microwaving vs oven (it was clearly not microwaved on the lake shore.)


Just for clarification, are you alluding tot rains like the Crescent or the Cardinal as the Microwave usage trains because they do not have ovens in the Lounge cars that they use as Diners too? Presumably all single level trains that have Viewliner Diners should have the crew use ovens to heat the meals, right?

The CCC in the CONO and TE should have convection ovens too AFAIR.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> Why would it be different than everything else on Amtrak? The staff do whatever they please.


Yes, good point. 


jis said:


> Just for clarification, are you alluding tot rains like the Crescent or the Cardinal as the Microwave usage trains because they do not have ovens in the Lounge cars that they use as Diners too? Presumably all single level trains that have Viewliner Diners should have the crew use ovens to heat the meals, right?
> 
> The CCC in the CONO and TE should have convection ovens too AFAIR.


I thought the amfleet II cafes had ovens as well?


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes, good point.
> 
> I thought the amfleet II cafes had ovens as well?


You're probably right. As I seem to recall at least some were fitted with them for specific use on the Cardinal. I lost track of whether all were fitted with the convection ovens and hot plates table like the ones used on the Cardinal were.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Just for clarification, are you alluding tot rains like the Crescent or the Cardinal as the Microwave usage trains because they do not have ovens in the Lounge cars that they use as Diners too? Presumably all single level trains that have Viewliner Diners should have the crew use ovens to heat the meals, right?
> 
> The CCC in the CONO and TE should have convection ovens too AFAIR.



You would think they all could but it seems at least from reports that the trains with a dedicated viewliner 2 diner serving only flexible dining with a separate lounge car most consistently prepare the meals in an oven than when both flexible dining and cafe service are prepared in the same car. Is the cafe service and flex dining on the TE CCC car sharing a crew member or are they staffing both sides?


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why would it be prepared differently from one train to the next?


The Lake Shore and Silver Service have a separate dedicated dining car for sleeping car food service with that LSA only serving flex meals and not having to also serve coach passengers which means they are less time crunched to serve all the meals - in those cars the flex meals are prepared in convection/regular ovens. All other trains that serve flex dining have just one car serving both cafe and flex meals. Now I get that the Capitol and eagle have a ccc car so they should be able to do the same but in practice how many staff are in the CCC car? I am merely pointing out that when there is a dedicated car/staff member service may be a bit more consistent. I know from direct observation that on the Lake Shore and Silvers they do not normally microwave the flex meals. The presence of an oven may not be the factor as much as it is the level of staffing as I do realize even the Amfleet 2 lounges have a convection oven. If a staff member has to do both they may be more likely to do whatever is the quickest to get through the meal period.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> If a staff member has to do both they may be more likely to do whatever is the quickest to get through the meal period.


I’ve intentionally avoided trains with flex dining after my first experience on the meteor - but I thought there were still 2 crew members even if there was only 1 car. Of course on Amtrak who knows what is actually happening. 

Are these meals designed to be heated in either an oven or a microwave? It doesn’t really matter what the reason is, if the LSA is preparing them incorrectly that’s a major problem but perhaps they are designed to be heated either way?


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve intentionally avoided trains with flex dining after my first experience on the meteor - but I thought there were still 2 crew members even if there was only 1 car. Of course on Amtrak who knows what is actually happening.
> 
> Are these meals designed to be heated in either an oven or a microwave? It doesn’t really matter what the reason is, if the LSA is preparing them incorrectly that’s a major problem but perhaps they are designed to be heated either way?



My understanding is these meals are NOT intended (at least by the New Horizons vendor they purchase the meals from) to be heated by microwave only by oven though it has been known to happen from trip reports where the meal came with the plastic still on it - seemingly happening more often on the trains with a single car - I have yet to experience it myself but all the reports I have seen have been from trains that have a single food service car - Crescent, Cardinal, Capitol, or Texas Eagle. It seems like the flex meals come out way worse when incorrectly prepared such as when microwaved.

The CONO - which they had to pull the diner from due to car shortages is operating with only a SSL which only has a microwave. Because of this they shifted to Torn Apron dinners instead of the flex meals for sleeper dinner service and serve cafe car items for breakfast and lunch. Torn Apron products are microwave friendly meals. This move backs up the idea that flex meals aren’t supposed to be microwaved.


----------



## lordsigma

Also when they were running a club-dinette car on the Boston section of the lake shore the Boston sleeper passengers would just get a cafe car menu item for lunch heading west and dinner heading east. I believe now that they’re running the full Amfleet 2 lounge/diner lite on it I believe they are closing the cafe for a period of the Boston - Albany stretch to actually serve flex meals for the Boston sleeper passengers as the car now does have a convection oven. I will be on it in May In the Boston sleeper so I’ll be curious to see what they do then. West of Albany Boston sleeper passengers are expected to go to the diner as normal.


----------



## Gp30sieb

I am on the Silver Meteor from Fort Lauderdale go Penn Station. The description of the Thai Red Curry Street Noodles looks enticing. It is not!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## joelkfla

Gp30sieb said:


> I am on the Silver Meteor from Fort Lauderdale go Penn Station. The description of the Thai Red Curry Street Noodles looks enticing. It is not!!!!!!!!!!!


Tastes differ. That's my favorite flex meal.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> Tastes differ. That's my favorite flex meal.


I prefer the beef short ribs as the safest choice. The chicken one is alright too. For breakfast I think the pancakes is the way to go.


----------



## Hepcat66

lordsigma said:


> I found the pancakes and sausage meal good on the lake shore. I’m guessing the difference is microwaving vs oven (it was clearly not microwaved on the lake shore.)


We had an enjoyable experience on the Empire Builder this summer and found the food overall, quite good. One exception was the quick takeout breakfast just before we arrived in Portland. We chose yogurt and a toasted bagel, except the bagel was nuked, not toasted. It was so tough I think it could have been used as body amour. Really, we just couldn't bite through it. My foodie wife was going to offer feedback to the young man, but we were about to detrain. Turned out to be a humorous and memorable moment of a fun train trip.


----------



## lordsigma

Hepcat66 said:


> We had an enjoyable experience on the Empire Builder this summer and found the food overall, quite good. One exception was the quick takeout breakfast just before we arrived in Portland. We chose yogurt and a toasted bagel, except the bagel was nuked, not toasted. It was so tough I think it could have been used as body amour. Really, we just couldn't bite through it. My foodie wife was going to offer feedback to the young man, but we were about to detrain. Turned out to be a humorous and memorable moment of a fun train trip.


Yes they only have a Sightseer Lounge on the Portland section of the Builder which only has a microwave. I'm kind of surprised to hear they do that a nuked bagel doesnt sound like a great idea!


----------



## fillyjonk

MARC Rider said:


> Did they let you hang out in the diner-lounge outside of the meal periods? (Like they're supposed to.)


I didn't even try. There wasn't a true lounge (SSL) on the run, hasn't been since before the pandemic. I just hung out in my roomette.


----------



## daybeers

joelkfla said:


> Tastes differ. That's my favorite flex meal.


Sorta like saying it's your favorite meal from the frozen section in xyz supermarket.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

daybeers said:


> Sorta like saying it's your favorite meal from the frozen section in xyz supermarket.


Yeah, but if those are your choices, then you're going to have preferences.


----------



## Rasputin

I relied on many frozen tv dinners in college. They were quick, easy and some were quite tasty. However I wasn't paying $600 a night for accommodations as one does in a sleeping car.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Rasputin said:


> I relied on many frozen tv dinners in college. They were quick, easy and some were quite tasty. However I wasn't paying $600 a night for accommodations as one does in a sleeping car.


Ramen packets were my go-to meal when the dorm cafeterias weren't open, as I went to college before microwaves in dorm rooms were common. However, as you said, one expects better than ramen-in-a-cup with hot water from the sleeping car coffee station when one is paying for Amtrak sleeper accommodations.


----------



## Sidney

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Ramen packets were my go-to meal when the dorm cafeterias weren't open, as I went to college before microwaves in dorm rooms were common. However, as you said, one expects better than ramen-in-a-cup with hot water from the sleeping car coffee station when one is paying for Amtrak sleeper accommodations.


Exactly. You expect fresh cooked to order food aka traditional dining when paying $600 or more for a sleeper. If anybody on this forum thinks Covid was the reason Flex was introduced as early as June 2018.


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> Exactly. You expect fresh cooked to order food aka traditional dining when paying $600 or more for a sleeper. If anybody on this forum thinks Covid was the reason Flex was introduced as early as June 2018.


Anyone that has been paying attention knows that Flex was introduced in the Eastern trains in an attempt to meet the goals set in the Mica Amendment. Covid only caused its extension to the Western LD trains, explicitly stated then as a temporary measure for the duration of the pandemic driven special operations.


----------



## TEREB

Sorry, but Co


Sidney said:


> Exactly. You expect fresh cooked to order food aka traditional dining when paying $600 or more for a sleeper. If anybody on this forum thinks Covid was the reason Flex was introduced as early as June 2018.


Sorry, but Covid was not the reason Flex meals were introduced. COVID hit us in 2020, not 2018. We had our first Flex meals on out Oct, 2019 south bound Meteor


----------



## celtical

jpakala said:


> I'm so glad ash trays are nowhere to be seen but lament (most) passengers' dress today compared to back then. The Super Chief had finger bowls along with the fine glassware, china, silverware, and substantial snowy-white tablecloths. Every railroad had its own interesting china and there were so many railroad companies. How the dining car staffs ever performed so perfectly is very hard to understand, especially in view of the space limitation and movement of the train, including curves, switches, crossings, braking, and all the rest.


You want to see perfection. I took viarail from Vancouver to Toronto last month, four days. Three meals a day and I have to say they were gourmet five star.


----------



## LMC

niemi24s said:


> Is this a real problem, or a perceived one?


let's see.... about 30%, or 1/3 of the nation eats gluten free. 4% have a medical diagnosis and this is the only treatment. 10% have a medical "request" or reason to eat gluten free. These people have to be concerned of cross-contamination issues. A sealed meal isn't that difficult. Getting a contract with a local caterer for Amtrak hubs would be easy peasy. It just isn't done.

The rest of the 30% (which is 14%) is preference. They do it for the way they feel or for a dietary preference, many are undiagnosed from real medical issues so it isn't something to take lightly. Food preferences are not something that should be made fun of or diminished. That's a lot of people who eat gluten free... it is a lot of potential customers that Amtrak could capture.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

My first Flex Menu meal was August 19, 2019 - 6 months before COVID-19. It was the Beef Provencal entrée. Below is the picture of that meal. In those days, the meal was served in what I believe was a bamboo box. Despite the presentation, it wasn't bad at all, except for that roll which was like eating rubber!




Can't forget dessert. I have to say those brownies are absolutely delish!!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

NYP2NFL01 said:


> My first Flex Menu meal was August 19, 2019 - 6 months before COVID-19. It was the Beef Provencal entrée. Below is the picture of that meal. In those days, the meal was served in what I believe was a bamboo box. Despite the presentation, it wasn't bad at all, except for that roll which was like eating rubber!
> 
> View attachment 30563
> 
> 
> Can't forget dessert. I have to say those brownies are absolutely delish!!!!
> 
> View attachment 30564


Glad you got to enjoy your Meal , the ones I had on the Lake Shore Ltd.(Dinner and Breakfast) around this time were absolutely inedible!

The Box was the Best part of "Fresh and Contemporary" Meals!( that's what they were called when first introduced. Flex Meals came later after COVID ramped up IINM.)


----------



## zetharion

Wouldnt offering dining to coach passengers generate revenue? Does Amtrak hate making money?


----------



## lordsigma

zetharion said:


> Wouldnt offering dining to coach passengers generate revenue? Does Amtrak hate making money?


What's your point? They are planning to do so this year.


----------



## Widfara

lordsigma said:


> My understanding is these meals are NOT intended (at least by the New Horizons vendor they purchase the meals from) to be heated by microwave only by oven though it has been known to happen from trip reports where the meal came with the plastic still on it - seemingly happening more often on the trains with a single car - I have yet to experience it myself but all the reports I have seen have been from trains that have a single food service car - Crescent, Cardinal, Capitol, or Texas Eagle. It seems like the flex meals come out way worse when incorrectly prepared such as when microwaved.
> 
> The CONO - which they had to pull the diner from due to car shortages is operating with only a SSL which only has a microwave. Because of this they shifted to Torn Apron dinners instead of the flex meals for sleeper dinner service and serve cafe car items for breakfast and lunch. Torn Apron products are microwave friendly meals. This move backs up the idea that flex meals aren’t supposed to be microwaved.


Back in October I got the pasta meal and the braised beef meal on the Cardinal - obviously microwaved, or terribly abused by the "cook". both looked like dog food. And, I had no option but to eat in my cell.
Of all the current flex meals, I recommend the salmon entree. Had that for both meals on the Crescent between Charlottesville and New Orleans.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

Bob Dylan said:


> The Box was the Best part of "Fresh and Contemporary" Meals!( that's what they were called when first introduced. Flex Meals came later after COVID ramped up IINM.)


I respectfully disagree. In this Amtrak Media Center release dated 9/13/19, “flexible dining experience for sleeper car customers” is used throughout.

Amtrak Introduces Enhanced Menu and Flexible Dining Experience on Five Routes - Amtrak Media


----------



## Hans627

So what is the latest on food service for the Auto Train? We have reservations on Thursday of this week (12/8/22).

Thanks!


----------



## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> The Box was the Best part of "Fresh and Contemporary" Meals!( that's what they were called when first introduced. Flex Meals came later after COVID ramped up IINM.)





NYP2NFL01 said:


> I respectfully disagree. In this Amtrak Media Center release dated 9/13/19, “flexible dining experience for sleeper car customers” is used throughout.
> 
> Amtrak Introduces Enhanced Menu and Flexible Dining Experience on Five Routes - Amtrak Media


Well, you both are sort of right. Flex was introduced to the Eastern trains pre-COVID as a cost saving measure by Anderson (despite Amtrak's protestations that somehow "the millennials" wanted terrible reheated sodium bombs). Flex was extended to Western trains as something of a COVID measure.


----------



## Rasputin

When we travelled on the Lake Shore in May 2019, I believe we were engaged in contemporary dining. Flexible dining came later that year as indicated by the press release. (Unless there were three iterations of this dining - contemporary, something else, and finally flexible.)


----------



## Steve4031

I wish the term, flexible dining, could be permanently eliminated.


----------



## fdaley

If I am remembering correctly, "contemporary" was the term used when dining service was killed and replaced with cold, boxed meals on the Lake Shore and Capitol, which happened on 6/1/18. "Flexible" was a sort of rebranding that was applied when the concept was extended to the Crescent and Silver Meteor, which happened at the end of September 2019, by which time the offerings had been expanded to include some hot meals that were attractively presented in their freezer tubs.

After the pandemic hit, "flexible" meals and service were offered systemwide, which was described as a temporary measure. Mercifully, dining service was restored sometime last year (?) on the western trains except for the Texas Eagle, which seems to have been permanently downgraded.


----------



## MARC Rider

zephyr17 said:


> terrible reheated sodium bombs


Some of the flex meals, are, indeed of poor quality, but people should keep in mind that for years the "traditional dining" (except for the grilled steaks) has been reheated food. I also suspect that traditional dining, like almost all commercially prepared food, is also full of "sodium bombs." Not to mention fats and sugar, too.


----------



## Palmland

Hans627 said:


> So what is the latest on food service for the Auto Train? We have reservations on Thursday of this week (12/8/22).
> 
> Thanks!


I'm assuming you are in a sleeper. It is full service dining in the dining car, also known as traditional dining. This is the Auto Train menu. One caveat, if the departure is delayed there may be only one seating for dinner with meals for others delivered to your room. 

If you are in coach there is a limited menu for purchase in the cafe car that services the coaches.


----------



## jis

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I respectfully disagree. In this Amtrak Media Center release dated 9/13/19, “flexible dining experience for sleeper car customers” is used throughout.
> 
> Amtrak Introduces Enhanced Menu and Flexible Dining Experience on Five Routes - Amtrak Media


What exactly do you respectfully disagree with? In 2019 Flex was introduced on 5 Eastern trains as is stated in the article that you referenced. The Western trains continued with traditional dining until Covid happened. That is when they changed to Flex Meals too.


----------



## Sidney

Rasputin said:


> When we travelled on the Lake Shore in May 2019, I believe we were engaged in contemporary dining. Flexible dining came later that year as indicated by the press release. (Unless there were three iterations of this dining - contemporary, something else, and finally flexible.)


Flex dining came to the Lake Shore and Capitol Ltd in June 2018. Because of the overwhelming popularity and nothing but kudos to Mr. Anderson for introducing this vastly improved dining experience it was expanded to all the Eastern trains and the Texas Eagle. (By the way,in case anybody didn't know,that was sarcasm)


----------



## MARC Rider

Sidney said:


> Flex dining came to the Lake Shore and Capitol Ltd in June 2018. Because of the overwhelming popularity and nothing but kudos to Mr. Anderson for introducing this vastly improved dining experience it was expanded to all the Eastern trains and the Texas Eagle. (By the way,in case anybody didn't know,that was sarcasm)


The Texas Eagle had full traditional dining in 2019. (I know, I rode on it.) I think it went to flex dining as a cost-cutting measure during the Covid-related ridership crash, and the traditional dining wasn't restored when the rest of the western trains had it restored.


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> Flex dining came to the Lake Shore and Capitol Ltd in June 2018. Because of the overwhelming popularity and nothing but kudos to Mr. Anderson for introducing this vastly improved dining experience it was expanded to all the Eastern trains and the Texas Eagle. (By the way,in case anybody didn't know,that was sarcasm)


Sarcasm notwithstanding, that is not the entire story of what happened. It all started with the delays in the delivery of Viewliner Diners from CAF.

The Heritage Diners came upto a point where they were due for a very major overhaul, and Amtrak decided not to spend that kind of money on them for what they then believed was just a few months of additional service. This led to both the Star and LSL losing Diners. The Star at that point lost dining service altogether. LSL got a truncated Dining service served out of the Amfleet II Lounge/Dinette.

These over a period of time were variously called Contemporary Dining and Flex Dining, with appropriate incompetently done marketing hype attached, generally blaming the whole thing on Millennial's alleged awful taste, while carefully hiding the real reason - which was not enough serviceable Diners available. In parallel there was an exercise afoot to meet the Mica induced goal of removing F&B losses, leading to the spread of Flex to all Eastern trains.

Meanwhile the Viewliner deliveries got delayed for years making the situation more and more precarious, until when things were approaching breaking point, the Viewliner Diners finally arrived. But by then the Mica induced move towards Flex was in full swing and all Eastern trains had gotten Flex Dining.

And then for some unknown reason (well actually it was a decision to not spend money doing basic maintenance and inspection since Flex could be served out of Amfleet II Lounges I suspect) Amtrak parked 7 of the brand new Diners so that even as they restored Dining Cars to single level trains as the much ballyhooed Sleeper Lounges, it became necessary to withdraw them from one, and this time they chose the Crescent. But since Flex Dining was in place, that was not a problem since that could be served out of an Amfleet II lounge/ Dinette as it originally was designed to be served.

Strange are the ways of Amtrak!


----------



## lordsigma

Widfara said:


> Back in October I got the pasta meal and the braised beef meal on the Cardinal - obviously microwaved, or terribly abused by the "cook". both looked like dog food. And, I had no option but to eat in my cell.
> Of all the current flex meals, I recommend the salmon entree. Had that for both meals on the Crescent between Charlottesville and New Orleans.


The crescent is the train I’ve most commonly heard trip reports of flex meals microwaved.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Sarcasm notwithstanding, that is not the entire story of what happened. It all started with the delays in the delivery of Viewliner Diners from CAF.
> 
> The Heritage Diners came upto a point where they were due for a very major overhaul, and Amtrak decided not to spend that kind of money on them for what they then believed was just a few months of additional service. This led to both the Star and LSL losing Diners. The Star at that point lost dining service altogether. LSL got a truncated Dining service served out of the Amfleet II Lounge/Dinette.
> 
> These over a period of time were various called Contemporary Dining and the Flex Dining, with appropriate incompetently done marketing hype attached, generally blaming the whole thing on Millennial's alleged awful taste, while carefully hiding the real reason - which was not enough serviceable Diners available. In parallel there was an exercise afoot to meet the Mica induced goal of removing F&B losses, leading to the spread of Flex to all Eastern trains.
> 
> Meanwhile the Viewliner deliveries got delayed for years making the situation more and more precarious, until when things were approaching breaking point, the Viewliner Diners finally arrived. But by then the Mica induced move towards Flex was in full swing and all Eastern trains had gotten Flex Dining.
> 
> And then for some unknown reason (well actually it was a decision to not spend money doing basic maintenance and inspection since Flex could be served out of Amfleet II Lounges I suspect) Amtrak parked 7 of the brand new Diners so that even as they restored Dining Cars to single level trains as the much ballyhooed Sleeper Lounges, it became necessary to withdraw them from one, and this time they chose the Crescent. But since Flex Dining was in place, that was not a problem since that could be served out of an Amfleet II lounge/ Dinette as it originally was designed to be served.
> 
> Strange are the ways of Amtrak!



Seems like those 7 were probably stored before the pandemic since theyve basically been running with the same number for a while. I wonder what the reasoning was for the shift from the crescent to the Star or if it was just changing management preferences. If I’m remembering before Covid it was Meteor, Crescent, and Lake Shore with the V2s but then when Covid came they pulled them off the Crescent and the combined Meteor- Star once a day alternating train consist had a diner (so essentially the Star got one here.) and then when they went back to normal daily service of all trains instead of restoring it to the Crescent the Star got a diner at its expense.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Seems like those 7 were probably stored before the pandemic since theyve basically been running with the same number for a while. I wonder what the reasoning was for the shift from the crescent to the Star or if it was just changing management preferences. If I’m remembering before Covid it was Meteor, Crescent, and Lake Shore with the V2s but then when Covid came they pulled them off the Crescent and the combined Meteor- Star once a day alternating train consist had a diner (so essentially the Star got one here.) and then when they went back to normal daily service of all trains instead of restoring it to the Crescent the Star got a diner at its expense.


Maybe they were thinking ahead about being able to restore traditional dining to a single route with a single crew base rather than spreading themselves too thin. I suppose not having to turn a Diner in NOL may have been a consideration.


----------



## zephyr17

I lucked out a few years ago on the Crescent. Had a Viewliner II diner with full traditional dining service.


----------



## Palmland

I suspect the Star has more sleeper passengers over the entire route than the Crescent. And the diner is no longer needed for dinner northbound from Atlanta with its later schedule. This may have been factors in the Star getting the diner rather than the Crescent. 

Now if there was the ability to turn the diner (and a sleeper) in Atlanta then same day turn would be possible and free up a diner. That may have been enough for both trains to have one.


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> I suspect the Star has more sleeper passengers over the entire route than the Crescent. And the diner is no longer needed for dinner northbound from Atlanta with its later schedule. This may have been factors in the Star getting the diner rather than the Crescent.
> 
> Now if there was the ability to turn the diner (and a sleeper) in Atlanta then same day turn would be possible and free up a diner. That may have been enough for both trains to have one.


Or they could just get the brand new mothballed Diners out of their cocoons and then there would be more than enough even to put Diners on the Cardinal, in addition to the Crescent.


----------



## Hans627

Palmland said:


> I'm assuming you are in a sleeper. It is full service dining in the dining car, also known as traditional dining. This is the Auto Train menu. One caveat, if the departure is delayed there may be only one seating for dinner with meals for others delivered to your room.
> 
> If you are in coach there is a limited menu for purchase in the cafe car that services the coaches.


Question answered. Thank you!


----------



## Amtrak709

Palmland said:


> I suspect the Star has more sleeper passengers over the entire route than the Crescent. And the diner is no longer needed for dinner northbound from Atlanta with its later schedule. This may have been factors in the Star getting the diner rather than the Crescent.
> 
> Now if there was the ability to turn the diner (and a sleeper) in Atlanta then same day turn would be possible and free up a diner. That may have been enough for both trains to have one.


Your assessment is probably correct. Having said that, there are still some passengers--like me--who board in Anniston AL that would applaud the return of a diner and full service dining on the Crescent. I recognize I am only one passenger.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

jis said:


> What exactly do you respectfully disagree with? In 2019 Flex was introduced on 5 Eastern trains as is stated in the article that you referenced. The Western trains continued with traditional dining until Covid happened. That is when they changed to Flex Meals too.



That "Flex Meals came later after COVID ramped up". My point in linking the Amtrak Press Release was to show that Amtrak used the term "Flexible Dining" well before the pandemic began. I was unaware of the "Fresh and contemporary" cold meals served on the Lake Shore Limited. So, I learned something as well.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I hope this is not off-topic. The YouTube Amtrak Couple “Grounded Life Travel”, just posted a new video highlighting their Maple Leaf trans-border travel to Toronto. It seems that Via Rail does not honor Amtrak’s Business Class perks, such as complimentary soft drinks.


----------



## jis

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I hope this is not off-topic. The YouTube Amtrak Couple “Grounded Life Travel”, just posted a new video highlighting their Maple Leaf trans-border travel to Toronto. It seems that Via Rail does not honor Amtrak’s Business Class perks, such as complimentary soft drinks.


VIA also does not charge extra fare for traveling in the Business Class on the Maple Leaf in Canada, well it charges $1 additional IIRC. This has always been the case. Nothing new there. In Canada it is a VIA train, so they have no reason to honor anything from Amtrak. Even the food served in the Cafe is different from Amtrak.


----------



## zephyr17

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I hope this is not off-topic. The YouTube Amtrak Couple “Grounded Life Travel”, just posted a new video highlighting their Maple Leaf trans-border travel to Toronto. It seems that Via Rail does not honor Amtrak’s Business Class perks, such as complimentary soft drinks.


Yes, and they never have.

A seat in the Business Class car is only $1 on VIA 97/98 and it isn't considered true VIA Business Class. The $1 is really just so ReserVIA has something to differentiate it by. And it isn't an Amtrak train in Canada. It is a wholly VIA operation except for the hardware.

On the bright side of not getting a free coke, they do have the BC/cafe restroom open, at least southbound. It somehow mysteriously fails when the Amtrak cafe attendant boards at Niagara Falls.


----------



## jiml

I like the Grounded Life videos as a rule, however they said their arrival inspection "took about 15 minutes". Having done this trip many times, that seems pretty optimistic - perhaps "spun" to improve the experience? Perhaps things have improved since the resumption of the service. They did comment that they waited on the train until their car was summoned, which would be a new experience for me. Previously it was "everybody off" and line up on the platform with your luggage regardless of the weather. Some real world confirmation of changes by anyone having done the trip recently would be helpful.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> I like the Grounded Life videos as a rule, however they said their arrival inspection "took about 15 minutes". Having done this trip many times, that seems pretty optimistic - perhaps "spun" to improve the experience? Perhaps things have improved since the resumption of the service. They did comment that they waited on the train until their car was summoned, which would be a new experience for me. Previously it was "everybody off" and line up on the platform with your luggage regardless of the weather. Some real world confirmation of changes by anyone having done the trip recently would be helpful.


Entering the US it was still everybody off and line up. But the US side now has adequate facilities for any conceivable passenger load, with a long indoor ramp/hallway leading to inspection and a large seating area just in front of the inspection entrance. Plus a covered platform. We had quite a big load, probably between 50-100 people crossing (largest by far of any time I've been on the Leaf) and the end of line up was nowhere near the door out to the platform. I was close to the end of the line, BTW.

Sorry, didn't ride it northbound, so can't speak to Canada where facilities are older and much more limited.

Car by car is how they've always done it in Vancouver. There the line up is outside and part of it is not under any sort of cover.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> Some of the flex meals, are, indeed of poor quality, but people should keep in mind that for years the "traditional dining" (except for the grilled steaks) has been reheated food. I also suspect that traditional dining, like almost all commercially prepared food, is also full of "sodium bombs." Not to mention fats and sugar, too.


Why, then, was (and I presume is) the traditional Railroad French Toast infinitely better than than either the Flex French Toast or Pancakes?


----------



## zetharion

joelkfla said:


> Why, then, was (and I presume is) the traditional Railroad French Toast infinitely better than than either the Flex French Toast or Pancakes?


The French Toast I had on the Eagle/Sunset Limited the first week of November a huge letdown? The Flex pancakes I agree are not good. The ones I got on the Eaglette to Chicago were overcooked and had very hard edges and were inedible.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I rode the Maple Leaf in September this year in Business Class. When the train crossed the border both ways, everyone had to get off, line up and go into the station for customs clearance. Since Niagara Falls, Ontario was our destination, we were free to go. Those continuing on to Toronto had to wait in the station until summoned back onboard by the train crew. I may add it was raining on our northbound trip when we crossed the border.


----------



## Sidney

zetharion said:


> The French Toast I had on the Eagle/Sunset Limited the first week of November a huge letdown? The Flex pancakes I agree are not good. The ones I got on the Eaglette to Chicago were overcooked and had very hard edges and were inedible.


I have broken many a fork trying to eat flex french toast,omelettes and pancakes.


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> Why, then, was (and I presume is) the traditional Railroad French Toast infinitely better than than either the Flex French Toast or Pancakes?


Many people seem to be under the impression that precooked food can never be as good as food "cooked to order." Having had lots of horrible stuff cooked to order, that isn't necessarily true. I don't know about the traditional dining French toast (and maybe the eggs, too.) I mean, the "railroad French toast" I've had in traditional dining on Amtrak was OK, but not the culinary masterpieces that some people think it is. If it was cooked to order and overcooked, it would be as bad as the overcooked flex meal French toast. Anyway, the big deal about eating in the dining car isn't the food, it's the ambience of sitting down at a table and watching the world go by as you eat. I've had that experience, by the way, sitting in the cafe car in the Northeast Regional and eating a microwaved Hebrew National hot dog, too.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Precooked food is generally not as good as fresh cooked food, and the best of precooked food is not a stitch on the best scratch cooked (and I really mean scratch cooked- bisquick is not scratch cooking) food.

However, to answer your question on the French toast- like scratch cooked food, precooked food is variable in quality. Actually, take three bags of popcorn, pop them following the bag instructions, and note how different the end timers can be for following those instructions. There’s such a thing as decent precooked food; there is such a thing as inedible scratch cooked food, some of which came out of my very own kitchen in my college Appartement before I met my wife.

I thought some of the precooked items before Flex appeared were entirely decent; I distinctly remember a duck l’orange on the SWC that was honestly delicious and simply reheated. They don’t touch the food my wife cooks at home, but they are nothing to complain about.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> Many people seem to be under the impression that precooked food can never be as good as food "cooked to order." Having had lots of horrible stuff cooked to order, that isn't necessarily true. I don't know about the traditional dining French toast (and maybe the eggs, too.) I mean, the "railroad French toast" I've had in traditional dining on Amtrak was OK, but not the culinary masterpieces that some people think it is. If it was cooked to order and overcooked, it would be as bad as the overcooked flex meal French toast. Anyway, the big deal about eating in the dining car isn't the food, it's the ambience of sitting down at a table and watching the world go by as you eat. I've had that experience, by the way, sitting in the cafe car in the Northeast Regional and eating a microwaved Hebrew National hot dog, too.


The difference may be a matter of the definitions of "precooked" and "reheated." I don't know how traditional dining items were supplied and prepared, but I suspect any items that were precooked were supplied and reheated separately, as opposed to flex meals being supplied in a single individual container. I also suspect some traditional dining items were not fully precooked, but partially cooked and finished, not reheated, on board.

I agree about the dining car experience. I always take my Flex meals in the dining car on the Silvers. It also makes it easier to get any extra condiments I might want, or drink refills or a forgotten bun. But it doesn't make the Flex meals taste any better.


----------



## JayPea

My one experience with flex dining was during a 2020 trip when all of Amtrak dining was flex. This was an Empire Builder-Texas Eagle-Coast Starlight trip. I was expecting awful, bland, and totally unpalatable meals. At that time, there were eight entrees for lunch and dinner, and I had all eight of them at one time or another. I found seven of the eight not bad. The only one I didn't like was a chicken dish. I think the chicken in it died of some terrible disease. Of course it wasn't on the same order as the steak, seafood, and other items that traditional dining offered. But it wasn't too bad. One of them was a pasta and meatball dish I really liked. The grocery store I work at carries a similar item, and I make sure it's well stocked. I make the order for our frozen food department so I make sure it's well stocked. Lots of power in the hands of the guy with the order gun!!!!

Bottom line was the flex food wasn't even in the same ball park as traditional dining for me. But it wasn't as horrible in my opinion as it was made out to be. It was what it was.


----------



## fillyjonk

zetharion said:


> The French Toast I had on the Eagle/Sunset Limited the first week of November a huge letdown? The Flex pancakes I agree are not good. The ones I got on the Eaglette to Chicago were overcooked and had very hard edges and were inedible.


Yes, that was my experience - the edges of BOTH the pancakes and the sausage were hard and dry. I guess in the future it's oatmeal and yogurt for me, at least they can't ruin that (except if they were to leave the yogurt out and it spoiled....)

I wonder if some of it is low staffing - one person to take the orders and hand out the food, one person (I assume) down below heating it however it's to be heated, and at busy times stuff either sits after heating (and hardens) or gets heated too long or too unevenly. 

That said, I don't think having more staff would make the flex stuff GOOD, it would just make it BETTER



JayPea said:


> My one experience with flex dining was during a 2020 trip when all of Amtrak dining was flex. This was an Empire Builder-Texas Eagle-Coast Starlight trip. I was expecting awful, bland, and totally unpalatable meals. At that time, there were eight entrees for lunch and dinner, and I had all eight of them at one time or another. I found seven of the eight not bad. The only one I didn't like was a chicken dish. I think the chicken in it died of some terrible disease. Of course it wasn't on the same order as the steak, seafood, and other items that traditional dining offered. But it wasn't too bad. One of them was a pasta and meatball dish I really liked. The grocery store I work at carries a similar item, and I make sure it's well stocked. I make the order for our frozen food department so I make sure it's well stocked. Lots of power in the hands of the guy with the order gun!!!!
> 
> Bottom line was the flex food wasn't even in the same ball park as traditional dining for me. But it wasn't as horrible in my opinion as it was made out to be. It was what it was.


The pasta and meatballs are not bad. That's usually what I get. They had cod on once when I traveled, like the fish in fish and chips, and that really was pretty decent. I got some kind of a shrimp dish one time when they were out of nearly everything and it was nearly inedible. 

I might try the chicken alla rosa my next trip if it's on offer, getting a little tired of pasta and meatballs. I have some dietary limitations (celery and carrots make me ill and I can't eat peanuts) so I have to be a little careful


----------



## railiner

joelkfla said:


> I don't know how traditional dining items were supplied and prepared,


----------



## Rasputin

Thanks for posting that ad showing Louis Price. I remember the ad when it first came out and I recall chatting with Mr. Price in his kitchen on the Southern Crescent on one of my trips on that train in the early 1970s. He was a nice person and enjoyed his work very much. It was distressing and rather infuriating to learn of his death at the hands of an incompetent engine crew on December 3, 1978.



https://www.nytimes.com/1978/12/26/archives/he-even-brought-his-own-pots-and-pans.html#:~:text=The%20Southern%20Railway%20has%20lots%20of%20men%20it,Southern%20used%20Louis%20Price%20to%20sell%20its%20train.


----------



## joelkfla

railiner said:


>



Back in the 1970's I rode the thru sleeper from L.A. onto the Southern Crescent (I can't remember exactly where I was headed.) I remember waking up on the train in New Orleans, looking out the window of my Roomette, and watching the crew load fresh provisions onto the diner. Quite possibly Mr. Price was the chef. I remember thinking how delicious was breakfast.


----------



## lordsigma

have seen a trip report or two that the Starlight is allowing coach passengers into the diner.


----------



## Trollopian

Green Maned Lion said:


> Precooked food is generally not as good as fresh cooked food, and the best of precooked food is not a stitch on the best scratch cooked (and I really mean scratch cooked- bisquick is not scratch cooking) food...



My stepmum finally got a fridge with a built-in icemaker and raved about no longer having to make ice cubes "from scratch." For the rest of her life we badgered her about how we missed her homemade ice cubes.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Trollopian said:


> My stepmum finally got a fridge with a built-in icemaker and raved about no longer having to make ice cubes "from scratch." For the rest of her life we badgered her about how we missed her homemade ice cubes.


We used to have a fridge with a built-in icemaker, and switched to having a separate fridge and countertop ice maker, which eliminated the need to have a plumber set up a water softener in the basement just so we could have filtered water going to the icemaker. More space required in the kitchen, but lower set-up and maintenance costs, since our current arrangement is more end-user serviceable.
Relating this back to Amtrak dining cars, there's a limited amount of space within which all the food preparation/refrigeration/storage/etc. equipment needs to fit, while still allowing Amtrak service attendants to work inside that space. So efficient use of space might outweigh minimizing maintenance costs; however, having food prep equipment for which at least minor maintenance can be done by the on-board staff would minimize dining service disruptions during a train journey.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> I mean, the "railroad French toast" I've had in traditional dining on Amtrak was OK, but not the culinary masterpieces that some people think it is.


Can you quote any posts that imply that Amtrak's french toast is a "culinary masterpiece?"



MARC Rider said:


> Anyway, the big deal about eating in the dining car isn't the food, it's the ambience of sitting down at a table and watching the world go by as you eat. I've had that experience, by the way, sitting in the cafe car in the Northeast Regional and eating a microwaved Hebrew National hot dog, too.


How does someone's negative opinion of flex meals impact your ability to enjoy a hotdog?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Some of the flex meals, are, indeed of poor quality, but people should keep in mind that for years the "traditional dining" (except for the grilled steaks) has been reheated food.


Well, for a start there are entrees that have been on the traditional dining menu that weren't "reheated food" other than steaks. Eggs at breakfast, baked potatoes, etc.

But that's not even the point. An Amtrak Food Specialist (aka chef) reheating and then plating a high-quality entree like the Lamb Shank is a completely different product than an Amtrak LSA placing a container in a convection oven and pulling it out when the timer goes off. Add to that the fact that the Flex meals are very low quality in my opinion, and then end product is very low quality.


----------



## RRrich

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well, for a start there are entrees that have been on the traditional dining menu that weren't "reheated food" other than steaks. Eggs at breakfast, baked potatoes, etc.
> 
> But that's not even the point. An Amtrak Food Specialist (aka chef) reheating and then plating a high-quality entree like the Lamb Shank is a completely different product than an Amtrak LSA placing a container in a convection oven and pulling it out when the timer goes off. Add to that the fact that the Flex meals are very low quality in my opinion, and then end product is very low quality.


As the computer folk say GIGO


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

RRrich said:


> As the computer folk say GIGO



Not being in the computer folk crowd, I had to look this up. But now I know what it means, I agree—that’s exactly right.


----------



## 01piglet_patinas

jis said:


> VIA also does not charge extra fare for traveling in the Business Class on the Maple Leaf in Canada, well it charges $1 additional IICR. This has always been the case. Nothing new there. In Canada it is a VIA train, so they have no reason to honor anything from Amtrak. Even the food served in the Cafe is different from Amtrak.


Hi. What is IICR? not familiar with that acronym.


----------



## jis

01piglet_patinas said:


> Hi. What is IICR? not familiar with that acronym.


It was intended to be IIRC (If I Recall Correctly). Fixed in the original post.


----------



## TheCrescent

If I understand correctly, Amtrak’s new Airo trains (what a bad choice of names for a railroad) will have cafe cars that will include self-service options. Hallelujah!


----------



## trimetbusfan

TheCrescent said:


> If I understand correctly, Amtrak’s new Airo trains (what a bad choice of names for a railroad) will have cafe cars that will include self-service options. Hallelujah!


Hopefully they don’t use that as an excuse to get rid of the cafe attendant… like they are doing on the San Joaquin’s.


----------



## TheCrescent

trimetbusfan said:


> Hopefully they don’t use that as an excuse to get rid of the cafe attendant… like they are doing on the San Joaquin’s.


I believe that there will still be an attendant.


----------



## Laurajeantx

joelkfla said:


> The difference may be a matter of the definitions of "precooked" and "reheated." I don't know how traditional dining items were supplied and prepared, but I suspect any items that were precooked were supplied and reheated separately, as opposed to flex meals being supplied in a single individual container. I also suspect some traditional dining items were not fully precooked, but partially cooked and finished, not reheated, on board.
> 
> I agree about the dining car experience. I always take my Flex meals in the dining car on the Silvers. It also makes it easier to get any extra condiments I might want, or drink refills or a forgotten bun. But it doesn't make the Flex meals taste any better.





This pure mushy slop was my dinner out of DC 2 weeks ago on the Silver Meteor. The train was only rolling 3 hrs out of origination in NYC and the only edible item on flex, the beef, was already out. When you pay over $700
for a sleeper from DC to Orlando, I expect better. Amtrak needs to step it up on the dining on Silver Service trains now, not next year or whenever.


----------



## Mailliw

TheCrescent said:


> I believe that there will still be an attendant.


There has to be if Amtrak wants to sell alcohol. I think "self-service options" just means passengers will be able to select something from a shelf or cooler and have the attendant ring them up line in a convenience store.


----------



## alpha3

Laurajeantx said:


> View attachment 30750
> 
> 
> This pure mushy slop was my dinner out of DC 2 weeks ago on the Silver Meteor. The train was only rolling 3 hrs out of origination in NYC and the only edible item on flex, the beef, was already out. When you pay over $700
> for a sleeper from DC to Orlando, I expect better. Amtrak needs to step it up on the dining on Silver Service trains now, not next year or whenever.



Obviously you didn't like it, calling it mushy slop; how did it taste? It LOOKS pretty good - I'd give that a try!


----------



## lordsigma

TheCrescent said:


> If I understand correctly, Amtrak’s new Airo trains (what a bad choice of names for a railroad) will have cafe cars that will include self-service options. Hallelujah!


Supposedly it will be similar to what the new Acela is going to have so that will likely be a preview.



alpha3 said:


> Obviously you didn't like it, calling it mushy slop; how did it taste? It LOOKS pretty good - I'd give that a try!


It looks like it’s the chicken ala Rosa. I’ve had it - it’s not awful. I prefer the beef one but that one is usually my second choice. Hoping for traditional dining to be back for my April trip though.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

lordsigma said:


> Supposedly it will be similar to what the new Acela is going to have so that will likely be a preview.



Sorry, I missed this. What is the new Acela going to have?



lordsigma said:


> It looks like it’s the chicken ala Rosa. I’ve had it - it’s not awful. I prefer the beef one but that one is usually my second choice.!



I’ve had the opposite problem, because I’m (mostly) vegetarian now. I’ll eat salmon, and liked that entree. But the regular vegetarian options are limited and seem to have very spicy sauces or it’s chili. And I don’t like spicy sauces or chili.


----------



## Bob Dylan

TheCrescent said:


> I believe that there will still be an attendant.


Wonder if the FC Car will have 1 or 2 Attendants???


----------



## zetharion

Mailliw said:


> There has to be if Amtrak wants to sell alcohol. I think "self-service options" just means passengers will be able to select something from a shelf or cooler and have the attendant ring them up line in a convenience store.


Or there will be vending machines for sodas and snacks.


----------



## joelkfla

zetharion said:


> Or there will be vending machines for sodas and snacks.


I don't see much point in vending machines if there will be an attendant present. Just creates hassles for passengers, and maintenance issues.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Wonder if the FC Car will have 1 or 2 Attendants???


What FC Car? The Airos will only have Coach and BC. No FC. FC only in Acela 21s and they will be staffed at the same level as now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

zetharion said:


> Or there will be vending machines for sodas and snacks.


They will have grab & go shelves.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> What FC Car? The Airos will only have Coach and BC. No FC. FC only in Acela 21s and they will be staffed at the same level as now.


Sorry my Sarcasm wasn't apparent!( not a Big Fan of Self Service on Trains)


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Sorry my Sarcasm wasn't apparent!


That sort of sarcasm tends to confuse novice less sophisticated readers, that is why I take the trouble to provide actual correct information when I see such.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> That sort of sarcasm tends to confuse novice less sophisticated readers, that is why I take the trouble to provide actual correct information when I see such.


Point taken!


----------



## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Sorry, I missed this. What is the new Acela going to have?



Self service options in the cafe. The Cafe on the Airo appears to be modeled after what they’re doing on the new Acela.


----------



## Mailliw

jis said:


> What FC Car? The Airos will only have Coach and BC. No FC. FC only in Acela 21s and they will be staffed at the same level as now.


Isn't there a union rule against vending machines on Northeast Corridor trains?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mailliw said:


> Isn't there a union rule against vending machines on Northeast Corridor trains?


Let's hope so!


----------



## OBS

Mailliw said:


> Isn't there a union rule against vending machines on Northeast Corridor trains?


no


----------



## Mailliw

lordsigma said:


> Self service options in the cafe. The Cafe on the Airo appears to be modeled after what they’re doing on the new Acela.


Which would imply the Airo cafe cars won't have seating, but then again aren't Venture Coachs like 20ft longer than Avelia Liberty cars?


----------



## lordsigma

Mailliw said:


> Which would imply the Airo cafe cars won't have seating, but then again aren't Venture Coachs like 20ft longer than Avelia Liberty cars?



Possibly - based on the concept photos the Airo cafe looks like it’s directly designed after the Avelia Liberty cafe and no sign of seating.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Mailliw said:


> Which would imply the Airo cafe cars won't have seating, but then again aren't Venture Coachs like 20ft longer than Avelia Liberty cars?





lordsigma said:


> Possibly - based on the concept photos the Airo cafe looks like it’s directly designed after the Avelia Liberty cafe and no sign of seating.



If there’s no seating in the cafe car, where will the crew sit?

Seriously, though, no seating in the cafe car would solve that annoyance of paying passengers being told they can’t sit there because the crew is sitting there.


----------



## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> If there’s no seating in the cafe car, where will the crew sit?
> 
> Seriously, though, no seating in the cafe car would solve that annoyance of paying passengers being told they can’t sit there because the crew is sitting there.


That’s a good point. Usually I see on most trips crews occupying two tables - which isn’t all that bad. But occasionally you see excesses.


----------



## zephyr17

Mailliw said:


> There has to be if Amtrak wants to sell alcohol. I think "self-service options" just means passengers will be able to select something from a shelf or cooler and have the attendant ring them up line in a convenience store.


Then it would be not a bit different than the cafe operation in a Superliner II Sightseer. That is how it is already done in those cars.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

TheCrescent said:


> If I understand correctly, Amtrak’s new Airo trains (what a bad choice of names for a railroad) will have cafe cars that will include self-service options. Hallelujah!


Let's just hope it is not self service = vending machines (remember the Southern Pacific Automat cars) = dog food.


----------



## zetharion

Maybe it would be some of them fancy hot meal Japanese style machines lol.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I’m not sure why people are against vending machines on Amtrak - the vending machines on the Piedmont trains have never been closed for a meal break, or been rude to me.


----------



## skylar

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Sorry, I missed this. What is the new Acela going to have?
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve had the opposite problem, because I’m (mostly) vegetarian now. I’ll eat salmon, and liked that entree. But the regular vegetarian options are limited and seem to have very spicy sauces or it’s chili. And I don’t like spicy sauces or chili.


I agree, the vegetarian options (er, is it still "option" when there's just one?) are mediocore, though it wasn't long ago that they were actually decent. I remember ~5 years ago when both Empire Builder and the Starlight had a pad thai dish that was quite good, along with a vegetarian tortellini. I actually got to eat something different for the second dinner on EB! I'd be pretty happy if Amtrak just went back to ca 2017 for dining.

At least the desserts have some variety... 

Skylar


----------



## trimetbusfan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure why people are against vending machines on Amtrak - the vending machines on the Piedmont trains have never been closed for a meal break, or been rude to me.


While this is true, arguably they offer much less selection. I doubt there would be many hot foods. Plus, without an attendant they woudln’t be able to serve alcohol.


----------



## BowlerMan3

joelkfla said:


> Why, then, was (and I presume is) the traditional Railroad French Toast infinitely better than than either the Flex French Toast or Pancakes?


There are 2 different meals on the Amtrak long haul trains. One are flexible meals that are prepared before the trip and just reheated on the microwave in the dinning/cafe car and those trains are the train east of Chicago and north of San Antonio, part of the Empire Builder from Spokane to Portland and possible a few other trains, and all the other trains which are west of Chicago and San Antonio and the auto train and those are traditional dinning and those meals are cooked on the train so they have a chef on board so those taste a lot better. Also right now for both flexible and traditional dinning are only availabe to sleeper passengers, coach passengers can not purchase that dinning yet but may change in the future.


----------



## TheCrescent

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure why people are against vending machines on Amtrak - the vending machines on the Piedmont trains have never been closed for a meal break, or been rude to me.


Agreed. After being yelled at for approaching the cafe car counter from the coach side (when I was in a sleeping car), yelled at for starting to sit down at a cafe car table (when most tables were occupied by crew), etc., I just bring my own food on board. It would be nice to be able to use a cafe car without risk of an incident.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

trimetbusfan said:


> While this is true, arguably they offer much less selection. I doubt there would be many hot foods. Plus, without an attendant they woudln’t be able to serve alcohol.


Since it’s all microwaved food the selection could be the same if they wanted. 

Alcohol is tricky but should Amtrak lose money on a cafe attendant just so they can sell alcohol?


----------



## jis

In addition to the Cafe Car Amtrak is also talking about providing Food and Drink Cart service on the NEC trains, sort of like Brightline does in Florida.


----------



## trimetbusfan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Since it’s all microwaved food the selection could be the same if they wanted.
> 
> Alcohol is tricky but should Amtrak lose money on a cafe attendant just so they can sell alcohol?


It will be intersting to see, as Amtrak seems to be pretty strict about not letting the public use their microwave.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> In addition to the Cafe Car Amtrak is also talking about providing Food and Drink Cart service on the NEC trains, sort of like Brightline does in Florida.


What the Hiawathas used to have, and VIA uses on Corridor Trains!


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## Mystic River Dragon

Bob Dylan said:


> What the Hiawathas used to have, and VIA uses on Corridor Trains!



I like the idea of a food cart. I have stopped going to the cafe car (even for my free BC coffee) because it’s not worth trying to balance a food box and myself through several cars over rough tracks, and the tables in the cafe car are always full (at least on the NEC) so there’s nowhere to sit there.


----------



## joelkfla

trimetbusfan said:


> It will be intersting to see, as Amtrak seems to be pretty strict about not letting the public use their microwave.


I believe the rule is that customer food cannot be heated in a microwave used to prepare food. I think it's related to the risk of cross contaminaton between customer food and establishment food. But a microwave dedicated to public use should be OK.


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## Keith1951

First time wife and I were on Amtrak, years ago, we had a bedroom and when we went to the dining car, we were taken to a table for our meal. A short time later, dining attendants sat another couple with us. We thought we were going to have the table to ourselves. Ever since then, on all our trips we only ate in our room. Does Amtrak still seat others with you in the dining car?


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## crescent-zephyr

I know it’s not a National law, since Alaska Railroad provides microwaves in their lounge cars for passenger use.


----------



## flitcraft

crescent-zephyr said:


> Alcohol is tricky but should Amtrak lose money on a cafe attendant just so they can sell alcohol?



Given the price being charged for wine compared with its wholesale price to Amtrak, I would guess that the cost of the attendant would easily be paid from alcohol alone, not the mention the additional cafe food sales from those who would not buy vending machine food but would buy non-vending machine foods. 

I have long thought that Amtrak is missing an easy revenue source on LD trains by selling only lower-end wine--wine that would sell at the 6-7 dollar price point in a grocery store. I would bet that if they carried a few somewhat higher end wines--say, the kind that would sell for 12 - 15 dollars at a grocery store, they'd make a lot more money on wine.


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## flitcraft

Yes, community seating has long been the practice. In fact, it would be hard for the dining car to serve all the sleeper passengers without community seating, at least within normal dining hours. During the pandemic, community seating was discontinued, but then again, passenger volume was low then. For some Amtrak passengers community seating provides a welcome opportunity to socialize, for others, they find it uncomfortable. Fortunately, Amtrak accommodates who prefer not to share a table by providing room service to the bedrooms and roomettes.


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## zetharion

Keith1951 said:


> First time wife and I were on Amtrak, years ago, we had a bedroom and when we went to the dining car, we were taken to a table for our meal. A short time later, dining attendants sat another couple with us. We thought we were going to have the table to ourselves. Ever since then, on all our trips we only ate in our room. Does Amtrak still seat others with you in the dining car?


Yes that has returned after Covid and I actually enjoyed meeting different people from different parts of the country.


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## zephyr17

Keith1951 said:


> First time wife and I were on Amtrak, years ago, we had a bedroom and when we went to the dining car, we were taken to a table for our meal. A short time later, dining attendants sat another couple with us. We thought we were going to have the table to ourselves. Ever since then, on all our trips we only ate in our room. Does Amtrak still seat others with you in the dining car?


Community seating has been the standard practice in railroad dining cars since they first entered service in the late 19th Century.

It wasn't invented by Amtrak. It has always been railroad practice.

There were a couple years during COVID that they didn't do it, but they returned to the _standard practice_ of community seating this year.


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## Maverickstation

With some comments being made about a return to Traditional Dining on the Silver Service trains, just remember what Stephen Gardner said a few months back. He discussed an improvement in Dining Service, using a variation of the service being offered on the western trains.

As far as what variation means, that's anyone's guess, but in the past the Florida route trains Dining Service included Buffet Style Service, No Dining Service north of Washington, and Table Service limited to Breakfast and Dinner. Stay tuned on this one.

Ken


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## lordsigma

Maverickstation said:


> With some comments being made about a return to Traditional Dining on the Silver Service trains, just remember what Stephen Gardner said a few months back. He discussed an improvement in Dining Service, using a variation of the service being offered on the western trains.
> 
> As far as what variation means, that's anyone's guess, but in the past the Florida route trains Dining Service included Buffet Style Service, No Dining Service north of Washington, and Table Service limited to Breakfast and Dinner. Stay tuned on this one.
> 
> Ken



It is true - I think it’s fair to expect an improvement but it may not be exactly what’s out west.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

flitcraft said:


> I have long thought that Amtrak is missing an easy revenue source on LD trains by selling only lower-end wine--wine that would sell at the 6-7 dollar price point in a grocery store. I would bet that if they carried a few somewhat higher end wines--say, the kind that would sell for 12 - 15 dollars at a grocery store, they'd make a lot more money on wine.


I agree with this. When we took trains out West last year they were offering Kendall Jackson in the dining car which is a cut above the usual low end brands like Barefoot that they usually offer in the cafe cars. Of course the brand would have to be able to be sold in the smaller bottles as are usually sold from the cafe. It would also be nice to be able to buy full 750 ml bottles also.


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## RRrich

Keith1951 said:


> First time wife and I were on Amtrak, years ago, we had a bedroom and when we went to the dining car, we were taken to a table for our meal. A short time later, dining attendants sat another couple with us. We thought we were going to have the table to ourselves. Ever since then, on all our trips we only ate in our room. Does Amtrak still seat others with you in the dining car?


Way back when, Wifey and I used to ride Amtrak both to get somewhere that we wanted to go to and to take Land Cruises. Circles with the same start and end point. One of the many things that Wifey and I enjoyed was sharing a table with others. Meeting new folks, making new friends. But all the bad talk of new improved Flex Meals has put a stop to our Amtrak riding


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## crescent-zephyr

flitcraft said:


> Given the price being charged for wine compared with its wholesale price to Amtrak, I would guess that the cost of the attendant would easily be paid from alcohol alone, not the mention the additional cafe food sales from those who would not buy vending machine food but would buy non-vending machine foods.


Does the alcohol on Amtrak have a significant markup compared to other products in the cafe car? 

As to the other point - since vending machines never close, I’m guessing sales would actually improve since they would always be open for business and not taking meal breaks


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## Sauve850

Keith1951 said:


> First time wife and I were on Amtrak, years ago, we had a bedroom and when we went to the dining car, we were taken to a table for our meal. A short time later, dining attendants sat another couple with us. We thought we were going to have the table to ourselves. Ever since then, on all our trips we only ate in our room. Does Amtrak still seat others with you in the dining car?


Some folks are just not comfortable dining with others. Ive had a few in my dining experiences on Amtrak. Many breakfasts and lunches Ive had the booth to myself though. The vast majority of dinners with others has been a pleasant experience for me. In over 30 years I don't recall having a meal in my room.


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## flitcraft

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does the alcohol on Amtrak have a significant markup compared to other products in the cafe car?


Well, I'm not sure what the markup is on other stuff, but the cafe sells a glass of Woodbridge wine for 8 dollars. I just checked my local supermarket--a 1.5 liter bottle, with 10 glasses, for 10 dollars. So, assuming that Amtrak paid a retail price--which they almost certainly don't--their markup on wine would be 8 times retail price. That's a pretty decent profit, and as I said, they aren't paying retail for it.


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## Willbridge

flitcraft said:


> Well, I'm not sure what the markup is on other stuff, but the cafe sells a glass of Woodbridge wine for 8 dollars. I just checked my local supermarket--a 1.5 liter bottle, with 10 glasses, for 10 dollars. So, assuming that Amtrak paid a retail price--which they almost certainly don't--their markup on wine would be 8 times retail price. That's a pretty decent profit, and as I said, they aren't paying retail for it.


There was folklore in the 1940's that the lounge on the SP _Coast Daylight _generated more revenue per mile than the tickets for the low fares of that era. Some observers think that if the upstairs bar on the _Winter Park Express _were to be staffed, that would add to the net.  On the other hand, excursion trains run by fan groups in the 1950's and 60's avoided behavior problems by not selling liquor at all.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

flitcraft said:


> Well, I'm not sure what the markup is on other stuff, but the cafe sells a glass of Woodbridge wine for 8 dollars. I just checked my local supermarket--a 1.5 liter bottle, with 10 glasses, for 10 dollars. So, assuming that Amtrak paid a retail price--which they almost certainly don't--their markup on wine would be 8 times retail price. That's a pretty decent profit, and as I said, they aren't paying retail for it.


So why do Amtrak cafe cars lose money if it’s that simple?


----------



## IndyLions

lordsigma said:


> That’s a good point. Usually I see on most trips crews occupying two tables - which isn’t all that bad. But occasionally you see excesses.


...Or they take up an entire section for the entire trip - which is the norm on the Cardinal...



jis said:


> In addition to the Cafe Car Amtrak is also talking about providing Food and Drink Cart service on the NEC trains, sort of like Brightline does in Florida.


I'll say it again - I hate carts. Lousy selection never available when you want it. Europe and the rest of the world can keep that aspect of their onboard experience...


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## Palmland

IndyLions said:


> I'll say it again - I hate carts. Lousy selection never available when you want it.


While carts are a poor substitute for a cafe car or diner, there are occasions when they are actually quite good.

Around 2000 I took an early morning Hiawatha train. As I sat in my seat trying to wake up, a cart came through and served hot coffee and a pastry that was wonderful.

Another occasion on an evening trip on a Frecciarossa HSR train a cart came through serving complimentary snacks and Prosecco. So, I think there is a time and place for carts.


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> I'll say it again - I hate carts. Lousy selection never available when you want it. Europe and the rest of the world can keep that aspect of their onboard experience...





Palmland said:


> While carts are a poor substitute for a cafe car or diner, there are occasions when they are actually quite good.
> 
> Around 2000 I took an early morning Hiawatha train. As I sat in my seat trying to wake up, a cart came through and served hot coffee and a pastry that was wonderful.
> 
> Another occasion on an evening trip on a Frecciarossa HSR train a cart came through serving complimentary snacks and Prosecco. So, I think there is a time and place for carts.


Indeed! I have partaken of Cart Service that delivered hot drinks and cakes on many many rides in the UK. 

So I suppose each can have their own opinion, I think carts can be pretty useful on many occasions. Those that do not like them do not need to use them, but hopefully will not stand in the way of letting others who like them be able to get the service.


----------



## printman2000

I spoke to an AGR agent last week who was freakin awesome! Not only did he really know his stuff, he rides trains!

Anyway, speaking of my trip mid April, he was confident the Texas Eagle would have full dining back by that time. He was 50/50 for Lake Shore Limited segment. I realize employees often have bad info, but at least it game me some hope.


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## zetharion

I depart on The Eagle on April 10 and it would be awesome if it returns by then but Im still gonna expect the mediocre Flex Food. I return late April on that same train so a small chance if it does return on that one.


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## Brian Battuello

I am depressed that this is actually an eBay collector's item. That was me, not so long ago...









AMTRAK LAKE SHORE LIMITED BROCHURE | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for AMTRAK LAKE SHORE LIMITED BROCHURE at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Brian Battuello

zetharion said:


> I depart on The Eagle on April 10 and it would be awesome if it returns by then but Im still gonna expect the mediocre Flex Food. I return late April on that same train so a small chance if it does return on that one.


Meanwhile, bring a pizza from the best place in town. You'll be the envy of all you survey.

Brian


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## Rasputin

Brian Battuello said:


> I am depressed that this is actually an eBay collector's item. That was me, not so long ago...
> 
> I[URL unfurl="true"I ]https://www.ebay.com/itm/374140607585[/URL]


I think I have two or three menus from the Lake Shore from the days when they listed food you would want to eat. They must be rare items at this point.


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## lordsigma

printman2000 said:


> I spoke to an AGR agent last week who was freakin awesome! Not only did he really know his stuff, he rides trains!
> 
> Anyway, speaking of my trip mid April, he was confident the Texas Eagle would have full dining back by that time. He was 50/50 for Lake Shore Limited segment. I realize employees often have bad info, but at least it game me some hope.


Don’t mean to sound negative but I would plan for flexible dining. Based on comments from executives at both the directors meeting and a recent webinar with the RPA the only thing Amtrak has committed to for this fiscal year is coach passengers returning to the dining cars out west and restoration of some form of more traditional dining on the silvers. I wouldn’t expect anything beyond that for this current fiscal year. They do refresh the flex meal menus about twice a year and in my opinion some of the newer options are better than the old.


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## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> Don’t mean to sound negative but I would plan for flexible dining. Based on comments from executives at both the directors meeting and a recent webinar with the RPA the only thing Amtrak has committed to for this fiscal year is coach passengers returning to the dining cars out west and restoration of some form of more traditional dining on the silvers. I wouldn’t expect anything beyond that for this current fiscal year. They do refresh the flex meal menus about twice a year and in my opinion some of the newer options are better than the old.



Furthermore Amtrak has only committed to restoring its stored revenue equipment and repairing viable wreck damaged revenue equipment. They have not made any commitments about restoration of non revenue equipment namely stored baggage, lounge, and food service cars. Amtrak has indicated that restoration of stored non revenue equipment would be based on business line decision making on a route to route basis regarding checked baggage and food service formats - this was indicated in their 5 year plan. So if they say decide say to bring back a sightseer lounge and traditional dining on the Texas Eagle only then will they put the required amount of stored sightseers in for refurbishment. Which means any decision like that would take a while to implement. Technically with the diner lounge car on the eagle they could do it without the SSL yes but I suspect they’d be connected. The Silver dining restoration is taking as long as it is and they already have the cars in the consist - decisions requiring the unstoring of cars will take longer.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> So why do Amtrak cafe cars lose money if it’s that simple?


I don't think that the cafe cars lose money. It's the dining cars that are the problem, financially.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> I don't think that the cafe cars lose money. It's the dining cars that are the problem, financially.


I’m pretty certain cafe cars lose money as well.


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m pretty certain cafe cars lose money as well.


I can't find the document right now, but Amtrak had stated that Cafe Cars in Corridor Services do not lose money. Admittedly that did not say much about Cafe Cars on LD trains though.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I can't find the document right now, but Amtrak had stated that Cafe Cars in corridor service do not lose money. Admittedly that did not say much about Cafe Cars on LD trains though.


Specifically the NEC? Or all corridor trains? 

I could see NEC and maybe Surfliner getting into the black, especially on average. (Meaning some trains lose money but some make money and it evens out).


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Specifically the NEC? Or all corridor trains?
> 
> I could see NEC and maybe Surfliner getting into the black, especially on average. (Meaning some trains lose money but some make money and it evens out).


Most likely it was about whatever falls under NEC BU, since they presumably account for F&B on state supported service is part of that specific contract. But who knows?


----------



## Tlcooper93

flitcraft said:


> I have long thought that Amtrak is missing an easy revenue source on LD trains by selling only lower-end wine--wine that would sell at the 6-7 dollar price point in a grocery store. I would bet that if they carried a few somewhat higher end wines--say, the kind that would sell for 12 - 15 dollars at a grocery store, they'd make a lot more money on wine.


I'd buy better wine on a LD train. The current offerings are the lowest possible. Enjoying a decent bottle with the scenery is an unforgettable no brainer.


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## Brian Battuello

While I was skimming the Lake Shore Limited on eBay, I came across this newspaper ad from 1903. 19 trains a day from Chicago to New York City (via various routes). Take that, precision scheduled railroading...


----------



## IndyLions

jis said:


> Indeed! I have partaken of Cart Service that delivered hot drinks and cakes on many many rides in the UK.
> 
> So I suppose each can have their own opinion, I think carts can be pretty useful on many occasions. Those that do not like them do not need to use them, but hopefully will not stand in the way of letting others who like them be able to get the service.


If "in addition" to Cafe service - great - even if I'm not a fan, personally. But I feel like with the US's continuous efforts to minimize onboard labor - it would be an "either or" proposition...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Most likely it was about whatever falls under NEC BU, since they presumably account for F&B on state supported service is part of that specific contract. But who knows?


I found it - the NEC specifically operates at a very small profit, state supported operates at a small loss, and LD F&B operates at a huge loss because of dining cars.



https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001.pdf


----------



## Bob Dylan

Same thing is happening on the Eaglette,CONO,Cardinal and Crescent, they're working the poor LSAs to death and Passengers pay High Prices to eat Heated TV Dinners that aren't as good as what we can buy @ the Stores!

Glad yalls trip worked out,I too like the Top Bed in VL Roomettes, but won't be riding in one till Traditional Dining returns and they are fully Equipped and Staffed!


----------



## lordsigma

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with carts if they are in addition to traditional cafe service. There might be times when the cart goes by where I might be interested in “another.”


----------



## UserNameRequired

Bob Dylan said:


> Same thing is happening on the Eaglette,CONO,Cardinal and Crescent, they're working the poor LSAs to death and Passengers pay High Prices to eat Heated TV Dinners that aren't as good as what we can buy @ the Stores!
> 
> Glad yalls trip worked out,I too like the Top Bed in VL Roomettes, but won't be riding in one till Traditional Dining returns and they are fully Equipped and Staffed!


The mention of TV Dinners with the Texas Eaglette brings to mind the ZZ Top song by the same name:

TV Dinners


----------



## Laurajeantx

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m pretty certain cafe cars lose money as well.


The sale of those sleeper tickets includes meals. Silver Service sleeper tix are crazy expensive. Maybe they are undervaluing coach tix if they are still losing money on the consist. I have seen coach tix priced crazy cheap and then they jam those cars to capacity. Its nasty and dirty in those restrooms and sometimes throughout the car. If you are selling an upgrade service, then you have to actually provide that upgraded service. This flex meal thing is essentially them just calling it in. The servers are undermotivated to get off their duffs and go pull that plastic tray out of the drawer and shove it at the customer who interrupted their video stream, only to provide them an inedible pile of slop. It's ridiculous. People paying the premium expect the premium. Servers will get more and better tips with traditional dining which should improve customer service there from a motivational point of view. Amtrak needs to stop looking at this as optional. It's not. The revenue issues are in coach.


----------



## fengshui

crescent-zephyr said:


> I found it - the NEC specifically operates at a very small profit, state supported operates at a small loss, and LD F&B operates at a huge loss because of dining cars.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001.pdf


That report is from 2014, I wonder if anything changed after that.

Their biggest challenge is staff levels and staff salaries. Restaurant work is often low salaries, plus tips. Amtrak is paying an average of $50k/year per dining car staff member, plus railroad retirement and other benefits of $30k/yr. The Rocky Mountaineer (not the same, but similar) only pays $35k/yr total.


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> If "in addition" to Cafe service - great - even if I'm not a fan, personally. But I feel like with the US's continuous efforts to minimize onboard labor - it would be an "either or" proposition...


What is proposed on the NEC is in addition to Cafe.

In my opinion best is Cafe + Cart. But even if there is no Cafe, a Cart is still preferable to no food service at all. That appears to be quite common in the UK, and is currently the case on Brightline.


----------



## Mailliw

I prefer actually getting up and going to the cafe car, but I do think at-seat service should be offered in Business Class (for complimentary drinks and buy-on-board). It would also benefit coach passengers because tge cafe car could go in the middle of the consist where it belongs!

Dining car is better than cafe car is better than cart service is better than vending machines is better than nothing.


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## bobmcshea

Thinking about the profitability of dining cars and cafe cars, department store do not make money of their elevators or escalators either! Would it be reasonable for them to disappear? Think about it!


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

You’re preaching to the choir unfortunately management doesn’t see the whole picture. Now with the crazy sleeper prices, the diner is a loss leader to put it in grocery store language. If Amtrak wants repeat passengers in sleeper class they need to justify the hefty fares they charge. If people remember the great food maybe they will be willing to travel again. The food is really the only amenity the western trains have left. At least the east coast trains have newer equipment. Our sleeper on the CZ this week was tired to say the least and we were greeted by graffiti in restrooms.


----------



## jis

It is worth remembering that our representatives in the House with the concurrence of the Senate and the President, collectively instructed Amtrak to make food service become non-loss making by 2020 and discontinue such if that could not be achieved. I know it is fun to blame Amtrak management but the choice that they had was to either abide by the law or break it, since as has been obvious for a while that it is not possible to make it a self standing profitable business unit by any standard accounting practices. 

Unfortunately by the time that law was changed it was just in the nick of time for Covid to strike. At least now there is agreement across the board that food service need not be a self standing profitable business line and that food service should be restored to something like what it was before this madness was foisted on us by Representative Mica of Orlando FL while everyone else was snoozing apparently. Fortunately he managed to lose an election thus opening the path to removal of his misguided attempts to undermine Long Distance service.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> since as has been obvious for a while that it is not possible to make it a self standing profitable business unit by any standard accounting practices.


Even if food service were outsourced to a private restaurateur or catering company using non-union "coolie labor," there's still the costs involved with the purchase and maintenance of very expensive rolling stock called dining cars and lounge cars. And these rolling restaurants don't have the capacity of their land-based cousins, so their revenue potential is limited. Come to think of it, most restaurants in general aren't really self-standing profitable businesses, either, considering how many of them close after a short run. It's a really risky line of business, and to add to that the hassles of putting it into a specialized conveyance, it's crazy to think that such a service could make any sort of profit.


----------



## railiner

I don't understand how a coach cafe, on a busy Corridor train can be losing money. IIRC, a standard "Amcafe", if in the 84 seat full coach density, adding the cafe still yields 53 revenue seats, right? That's more seats than some Heritage long-distance chair cars had--44 seats. And with an almost continuous line of "take-out" customer's, paying inflated prices for the various offerings, added to the revenue seating, minus the salary for the LSA, how can they lose?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I don't understand how a coach cafe, on a busy Corridor train can be losing money. IIRC, a standard "Amcafe", if in the 84 seat full coach density, adding the cafe still yields 53 revenue seats, right? That's more seats than some Heritage long-distance chair cars had--44 seats. And with an almost continuous line of "take-out" customer's, paying inflated prices for the various offerings, added to the revenue seating, minus the salary for the LSA, how can they lose?


Amtrak got rid of their Coach-Cafes long time back. They have very few if any at all left. Only Cafes that have revenue seats are the Club-Cafes, which are used as BC cars these days.

Also the way accounting is done as specified in a thick tome dveloped by the Volpe Center as assigned to do so by the FRA upon instructions from Congress, revenue seats do not count towards F&B revenues and LSA in Cafe counts towards revenue cost, not transportation cost. When we talk about Cafes making or losing money we are talking about F&B revenue and cost, not F&B + transport revenue and cost.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Amtrak got rid of their Coach-Cafes long time back. They have very few if any at all left. Only Cafes that have revenue seats are the Club-Cafes, which are used as BC cars these days.
> 
> Also the way accounting is done as specified in a thick tome dveloped by the Volpe Center as assigned to do so by the FRA upon instructions from Congress, revenue seats do not count towards F&B revenues and LSA in Cafe counts towards revenue cost, not transportation cost. When we talk about Cafes making or losing money we are talking about F&B revenue and cost, not F&B + transport revenue and cost.


I guess that proves that figures can be manipulated to prove any point, for or against....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I guess that proves that figures can be manipulated to prove any point, for or against....


Indeed it is very important to understand what exact accounting sits behind any such claim, and special attention needs to be paid about which line items are allocated revenue/cost and for those, how the allocation is done. It gets pretty complicated pretty soon, making it quite easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the careless.


----------



## west point

It suddenly occurred to me that the service in diners is directly related to a train's revenue car counts. All the short train consists limits the number of extra OBS crew to help in the diners. One sleeper and two coaches would normally have just 2 OBS for the cars. How can they help in serving passengers ? Now for example, if there is a Crescent, LSL, Meteor, or Star with 3 - 4 sleepers and same number of coaches then maybe 3 - 4 OBS can be assigned help serve at serving times.. Other revenue car OBS spread out to cover double of normal cars. That enables a full clasic diner food service. 

So IMO LD trains need to have enough cars with OBS persons to allow spliting them up to serve proper dinning service. With the present lack of equipment what does Amtrak do? Assign extra OBS or just continue diner lite? We may know soon. Any thoughts ?


----------



## TheCrescent

Is one reason that long distance dining cars lose money the relatively low volume of business in them?

With only two sleeping cars on many long distance trains, that’s a huge amount of overhead for just a few meals.

If that’s the case, then what I and others have proposed- expansions of sleeping car offerings to add a range of new rooms at a range of prices (particularly prices below current levels)- could also help dining cars lose less money (by bringing many more sleeping car passengers onboard).


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## lordsigma

Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)


Yes, and yes.


----------



## Maverickstation

bobmcshea said:


> Thinking about the profitability of dining cars and cafe cars, department store do not make money of their elevators or escalators either! Would it be reasonable for them to disappear? Think about it!



Actually yes, a number of Department Stores over the past year reduced their floor count, and thus have fewer escalators to maintain, and less strain on elevators. Stores from Bloomingdale's, to Boscov's, to Macy's, to Nordstrom, to Saks 5th Avenue, all have closed off entire floors in lower volume suburban locations with more than 1 floor. Speaking of Department Stores one reason why there are fewer and fewer restaurants in these stores is that while they were never expected to make money, they still had a budget to say within, and when the losses got out of hand, it was time to let them go. 

Ken


----------



## lordsigma

Harris had done an interview in Trains where he made an interesting comment about flexible dining when discussing the return of traditional dining to the silvers. He seemed to hint that it may lose its cost advantage the longer the route is because the food costs per passenger per meal served for flexible dining is higher. So if you have a shorter route or a lower ridership route with less sleeping car passengers the lower labor costs probably ultimately offset any potential negative affect on ridership due to customer satisfaction and the higher food costs. But on the longer flexible dining routes the higher food costs per passenger (as there are more meal periods) and potential negative affects on customer satisfaction may offset savings from labor.


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## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> Is one reason that long distance dining cars lose money the relatively low volume of business in them?


I think the biggest reason is the labor costs + commissary costs at the terminals. 

The operation of the diners is also an issue, they are not operated to maximize profits. Here are a few ways to maximize profits a

1- longer hours for meal service. Most restaurants don’t close between breakfast, lunch and dinner - they operate all day and never turn away customers. 

2- advertise “room service” for sleeping car passengers so that more ask for it - that frees up space in the diner allowing more coach passengers to eat. 

3- “at your seat” meals for coach passengers delivered by coach attendants. These were tested and proved successful. 

4- encourage upsells. You want guests to order more drinks etc. give them time and encourage “another drink?”


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## OlympianHiawatha

lordsigma said:


> Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)


That is correct. While it's been a few years since I've ridden, it has a very good selection and since it is State subsidized, the prices are very reasonable.


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## TheCrescent

Quick vent: what I dislike most about Flexible Dining is that it’s INflexible. You are given dinner when the cafe car attendant wants you to have it. On the Crescent, if the regular staff is handling sleeping cars, that generally means 4:30pm. 

Why can’t you be served dinner at one of several times: perhaps 5pm, 6pm or 7pm (or something other than “at whenever the cafe car attendant decides, regardless of what you want”)?


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## Siegmund

lordsigma said:


> Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)



Not unique - a total of eleven Superliner I coaches had snack bars added downstairs in the early 80s. They have had assignments on various short-distance trains (Seattle-Portland before the Talgos were built, San Joaquins before the California cars were built) and in happier times when the regular consist of the Coast Starlight was something like 3 sleepers and 5 coaches, one of the coaches farthest from the lounge was often a snack coach.

As far as I know, 8 or 9 of these cars still survive, but I don't know where the others are assigned, or if the snack bar is normally crewed.


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## zephyr17

Siegmund said:


> Not unique - a total of eleven Superliner I coaches had snack bars added downstairs in the early 80s. They have had assignments on various short-distance trains (Seattle-Portland before the Talgos were built, San Joaquins before the California cars were built) and in happier times when the regular consist of the Coast Starlight was something like 3 sleepers and 5 coaches, one of the coaches farthest from the lounge was often a snack coach.
> 
> As far as I know, 8 or 9 of these cars still survive, but I don't know where the others are assigned, or if the snack bar is normally crewed.


I remember having a snack coach on the Pioneer.


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## Siegmund

zephyr17 said:


> I remember having a snack coach on the Pioneer.


May I ask if that was at the very beginning of the Superliner age, just after the time when the Pioneer had a Heritage sleeper and an Amdinette but Superliner coaches? Or was that the latter-day Denver Pioneer that ran up to 7 or 8 cars without a lounge?


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## zephyr17

Siegmund said:


> May I ask if that was at the very beginning of the Superliner age, just after the time when the Pioneer had a Heritage sleeper and an Amdinette but Superliner coaches? Or was that the latter-day Denver Pioneer that ran up to 7 or 8 cars without a lounge?


Late stage, in the late 80s and 90s.

In the mid 80s, I think I recall having a Hi Level diner conversion to a diner/lounge on the Pioneer like they ran on the Desert Wind for awhile, but am not sure about that. I may be crossing up the Desert Wind and the Pioneer on a trip when I took both.


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## crescent-zephyr

Texas Eagle had the snack coach back when it used to split. That would have been early 90’s I think. 

Also, the Surfliner trains have bi-level snack coaches as well.


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## railiner

The original Superliner I order, were only in five configurations...Sleeper, Diner, Sightseer Lounge, Coach, and Coach-Baggage. They ran with Heritage baggage car(s), and a converted Hi-Level "Trans-Dorm-Coach". Modification's came later...CCC, Coach-Snack Bar, Coach-Smoking Lounge, etc. Not sure about the Auto Train 'Deluxe Sleeper'...if it was delivered with all deluxe bedrooms on upper level, or modified later.


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## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> Quick vent: what I dislike most about Flexible Dining is that it’s INflexible. You are given dinner when the cafe car attendant wants you to have it. On the Crescent, if the regular staff is handling sleeping cars, that generally means 4:30pm.
> 
> Why can’t you be served dinner at one of several times: perhaps 5pm, 6pm or 7pm (or something other than “at whenever the cafe car attendant decides, regardless of what you want”)?


That's a very good point. Most of my flex meal experiences weren't so awful because I was coming to the diner and getting served dinner via a reservation, which was pretty much how things worked with traditional dining. OK, the food wasn't as good, but otherwise the train dining experience wasn't too much different from what I was used to. And for breakfast and lunch I just came to the diner at my own schedule (when it was open) and got served my flex meal. There was only one case on a crowded Capitol Limited (pre-Covid) when we had to line up at a specified time to get our tray of flex meals. You would think that on the trains with reduced sleeping car consists, it shouldn't be so hard for the smaller staff to serve the reduced number of passengers using the dining facilities, especially since a lot of people are eating in their rooms, anyway..


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## jis

Frankly I fail to understand why the Cafe LSA insists on going on lunch break in the middle of lunch hours., when they could easily do so during the shoulder hours. This happened consistently on the Silver Star the last few times I rode it. It did not directly affect me since I was not using Cafe service.


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## lordsigma

Siegmund said:


> Not unique - a total of eleven Superliner I coaches had snack bars added downstairs in the early 80s



So I take it the Heartland is just unique in that it’s the only train using the snack coach as designed - using the snack bar as the cafe car for the train.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> So I take it the Heartland is just unique in that it’s the only train using the snack coach as designed - using the snack bar as the cafe car for the train.


Doesn't Amtrak California have a few of those? They did for a while in the past IIRC.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Texas Eagle had the snack coach back when it used to split. That would have been early 90’s I think.
> 
> Also, the Surfliner trains have bi-level snack coaches as well.


I rode a Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to the Bay area that had a Superliner in the consist that was a regular coach upstairs and a snack bar downstairs. It was kind of nice, because it had the full long-distance seat pitch and recline, whereas the other California cars in the consist were much more cramped. It was like business class for the price of coach.


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## John Bredin

lordsigma said:


> So I take it the Heartland is just unique in that it’s the only train using the snack coach as designed - using the snack bar as the cafe car for the train.


Pere Marquette runs sometimes with two Superliners, neither is a Sightseer Lounge, and as far as I know there was still cafe service. I was presuming one of the two coaches was a snack coach.


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## MARC Rider

As Amtrak improves its dining service, one thing that I believe they need to be careful about is how they present the improvements. I think one of the reasons that the haters (hi, former representative Mica!) were able to attack it in the past is because Amtrak billed the experiences as fine, gourmet dining. They did stuff like contract with celebrity chefs and such to help plan menus and in marketing materials they advertised it like it was some kind of elite experience. This is a little out of sync with a company that justifies it's billion+ dollar taxpayer subsidy on the argument that's it's providing necessary transportation services to the masses. Sure, for a trip that lasts through several meal periods, they need to provide nutritious, appetizing food, but perhaps they should be marketing it as solid home-style diner food, not fancy-schmantzy gourmet chow. This not only provides better political cover for the subsidies, but lowers the expectations of the passengers, who might get their noses out of joint when the service isn't the exquisite white-tablecloth gourmet experience they were expecting based on the marketing materials. After all, one can always dine at a 5-star restaurant when one arrives at the destination, and, anyway, if the food is too fancy, a lot of people aren't going to like what's being served, even it's of the finest quality.


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Frankly I fail to understand why the Cafe LSA insists on going on lunch break in the middle of lunch hours., when they could easily do so during the shoulder hours. This happened consistently on the Silver Star the last few times I rode it. It did not directly affect me since I was not using Cafe service.


When they do this on the Eaglette with only 1 LSA working the CCC, ( Diner/Cafe)that means the Car is Closed for an Hour during Meal times!


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Frankly I fail to understand why the Cafe LSA insists on going on lunch break in the middle of lunch hours., when they could easily do so during the shoulder hours. This happened consistently on the Silver Star the last few times I rode it. It did not directly affect me since I was not using Cafe service.


Also dinner, which is even worse. I heard the Cafe attendant announce on P.A. that she was going on meal break around 5:30 p.m. and would reopen in 30 minutes. She actually reopened around 6:30 p.m.

If I ran the train, the Cafe would be required to be open between 11:30-1:30, and 5:30-7:00. If being assigned a 7 p.m. seating in the diner is good enought for SC passengers, then its certainly good enough for OBS.


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## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> Also dinner, which is even worse. I heard the Cafe attendant announce on P.A. that she was going on meal break around 5:30 p.m. and would reopen in 30 minutes. She actually reopened around 6:30 p.m.
> 
> If I ran the train, the Cafe would be required to be open between 11:30-1:30, and 5:30-7:00. If being assigned a 7 p.m. seating in the diner is good enought for SC passengers, then its certainly good enough for OBS.


I quite agree. However, if there was such a requirement, without actual onboard supervision, it will be probably be widely ignored by free range OBS staff, like many other policies set forth in the Service Standards manual.


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## Willbridge

On Trains 5/6, this past summer due to the ban on coach passengers in dining cars I was alert to any poor snack bar service. I was pleased to note that the attendants in both directions took their meal breaks with the dining car crew rather than closing up at passenger mealtimes. Maybe the incentive of eating with colleagues helps. Now if they can get rid of the pretend barricades of boxes in the lower level...


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## Willbridge

TheCrescent said:


> Is one reason that long distance dining cars lose money the relatively low volume of business in them?
> 
> With only two sleeping cars on many long distance trains, that’s a huge amount of overhead for just a few meals.
> 
> If that’s the case, then what I and others have proposed- expansions of sleeping car offerings to add a range of new rooms at a range of prices (particularly prices below current levels)- could also help dining cars lose less money (by bringing many more sleeping car passengers onboard).


Or, the Santa Fe way, attract coach passengers to eat selected meals in the dining car. Both of the attached promotions were in effect in the mid-1960's.


----------



## bobmcshea

Maverickstation said:


> Actually yes, a number of Department Stores over the past year reduced their floor count, and thus have fewer escalators to maintain, and less strain on elevators. Stores from Bloomingdale's, to Boscov's, to Macy's, to Nordstrom, to Saks 5th Avenue, all have closed off entire floors in lower volume suburban locations with more than 1 floor. Speaking of Department Stores one reason why there are fewer and fewer restaurants in these stores is that while they were never expected to make money, they still had a budget to say within, and when the losses got out of hand, it was time to let them go.
> 
> Ken


Reducing the floor count does not resolve the issue. The fact remains, that when a commercial operation has multiple levels (perhaps just two levels) and is open to the public, these institutions continue to provide elevators and/or escalators for customer (and non- customer) convenience. There are no direct charges to the public for their use. It may be included in the price of their wares, but non-buying visitors do not pay for their use. Further, ADA laws would not support such lack of access.


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## Mailliw

Random thought; would the Palmetto be a good candidate for traditional dining? It's not an overnight train, but it is still a long distance train. If not traditional dining would flexible dining and/or an expanded cafe menu?


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## jis

Mailliw said:


> Random thought; would the Palmetto be a good candidate for traditional dining? It's not an overnight train, but it is still a long distance train. If not traditional dining would flexible dining and/or an expanded cafe menu?


Since there are not enough Dining Cars available even if all VL II Diners are deployed, traditional dining is pretty much out. Enhanced Cafe would be the way to go, which could include some Flex Dining items.


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## lordsigma

Mailliw said:


> Random thought; would the Palmetto be a good candidate for traditional dining? It's not an overnight train, but it is still a long distance train. If not traditional dining would flexible dining and/or an expanded cafe menu?



Currently only the Auto Train serves flexible dining meals for purchase in the cafe. That model might work. It should be noted however that the flex meals supplied by the New Horizons kitchen are not supposed to be microwave heated (even though yes you will see some LSAs do it) and the Amfleet 1 cafe used on the Palmetto has those older convection ovens that I’ve never seen used and they probably take a lot longer to heat meals than the high speed ovens they installed on the Amfleet 2 and Viewliner 2 diners.


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## crescent-zephyr

Mailliw said:


> Random thought; would the Palmetto be a good candidate for traditional dining? It's not an overnight train, but it is still a long distance train. If not traditional dining would flexible dining and/or an expanded cafe menu?


The Palmetto would be a great candidate for the original Cross Country Cafe idea or the original Bistro service on the Cascades. Basically.. there is a "chef / food specialist" on board and a kitchen that allows for a few items like oatmeal, soup, etc. 

Would be interesting to see how many people would use a full diner - it's certainly something that Amtrak should consider testing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Since there are not enough Dining Cars available even if all VL II Diners are deployed, traditional dining is pretty much out. Enhanced Cafe would be the way to go, which could include some Flex Dining items.


There are 26 Viewliner Diners on the Active Roster... how could there be "not enough"?


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> There are 26 Viewliner Diners on the Active Roster... how could there be "not enough"?


At present there are only 17 or 18 on active roster. The rest are stored in mothballs with no plans to bring them out for several years. Maybe that will change and I think it should change so that at least the Crescent and if I had my druthers also the Cardinal could get the. Putting a Diner on all of them require 17 to be used and if one uses Amtrak's standard PM etc. and contingency you are left with only 1 after the existing overnight LD trains are equipped, mind you this is after they come out of Mothballs which currently has no due date. So yeah with a stretch maybe it can be managed but not very reliably given how the current maintenance cycles go.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> At present there are only 17 or 18 on active roster. The rest are stored in mothballs with no plans to bring them out for several years. Maybe that will change and I think it should change so that at least the Crescent and if I had my druthers also the Cardinal could get the. Putting a Diner on all of them require 17 to be used and if one uses Amtrak's standard PM etc. and contingency you are left with only 1 after the existing overnight LD trains are equipped, mind you this is after they come out of Mothballs which currently has no due date. So yeah with a stretch maybe it can be managed but not very reliably given how the current maintenance cycles go.


It takes 17 to equip Lake Shore, Silvers, and Crescent?


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> It takes 17 to equip Lake Shore, Silvers, and Crescent?


and Cardinal.

Currently Crescent and Cardinal do not have Diners.


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## TheCrescent

jis said:


> and Cardinal.
> 
> Currently Crescent and Cardinal do not have Diners.


Didn’t Amtrak rename them “first class lounges”, at least on the Crescent?


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> and Cardinal.
> 
> Currently Crescent and Cardinal do not have Diners.


I didn’t realize the cardinal ever had a diner. 

So 17 to handle the silvers, crescent, lake shore, and Cardinal? Leave a spare and you have 8 more, so plenty to put some on the Palmetto if so desired.


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## jis

TheCrescent said:


> Didn’t Amtrak rename them “first class lounges”, at least on the Crescent?


I was talking of the hard product, a Viewliner Diner Car

Yes, the soft product is called a Sleeper Lounge for at least a little while longer, and they might indeed continue to be that even after Coach passenger are allowed to use the Dining service in those cars.



crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t realize the cardinal ever had a diner.
> 
> So 17 to handle the silvers, crescent, lake shore, and Cardinal? Leave a spare and you have 8 more, so plenty to put some on the Palmetto if so desired.


Their claim is they need 25 cars to put a Diner on all the single level Sleeper train after periodic maintenance incidental breakdowns and contingencies are taken care of. It has always seemed a bit hokey to me, but I don't run the railroad, they do.

I was actually told that that is the reason that there were also 25 Amfleet II lounges ordered, and received. I was wondering why 25 and asked. Similarly, the 25 additional VLII Sleepers theoretically is supposed allow addition of one Sleeper to each train.


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## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t realize the cardinal ever had a diner.
> 
> So 17 to handle the silvers, crescent, lake shore, and Cardinal? Leave a spare and you have 8 more, so plenty to put some on the Palmetto if so desired.


Correct - Amtrak has stated as mentioned by jis above that they don’t plan to exit any diners from storage absent a business line decision to change food service formats on a route - they aren’t going to just overhaul all the non revenue equipment no matter what as they are for revenue cars - cars will be overhauled if a business line decision is made to send them somewhere. So if they decide to, say add traditional dining back to the Crescent in FY24, then only then would they schedule the needed diners for overhaul so the time to implement this from decision to service on the train would take some time. I honestly don’t see any decisions like that until they are essentially caught up and in a good place on revenue cars and all Superliner/Viewliner refreshes are done.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Their claim is they need 25 cars to put a Diner on all the single level Sleeper train after periodic maintenance incidental breakdowns and contingencies are taken care of. It has always seemed a bit hokey to me, but I don't run the railroad, they do.


Ohhh interesting. Seems like a lot of spares but as you said, it’s there railroad to run! Haha


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## lordsigma

I’d add that I’m not necessarily saying I agree with that decision making rationale for non revenue cars as the best use of taxpayer funded cars. But it’s what they’ve said they’re doing per the equipment asset plan for this year. The only decision that has been made taking affect in FY23 is the return of traditional dining on the Meteor and Star.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> I’d add that I’m not necessarily saying I agree with that decision making rationale for non revenue cars as the best use of taxpayer funded cars. But it’s what they’ve said they’re doing per the equipment asset plan for this year. The only decision that has been made taking affect in FY23 is the return of traditional dining on the Meteor and Star.


Did the start date get pushed back?


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## lordsigma

AmtrakBlue said:


> Did the start date get pushed back?


No date has been announced for that only that it’s happening sometime this year. Anything beyond that is rumors.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> No date has been announced for that only that it’s happening sometime this year. Anything beyond that is rumors.


You mean next year? It's still 2022.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> You mean next year? It's still 2022.


Good point.


----------



## niemi24s

It's already FY 2023 and we're nearly three months into it, if that makes any difference.


----------



## lordsigma

niemi24s said:


> It's already FY 2023 and we're nearly three months into it, if that makes any difference.


Indeed since October.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Maverickstation said:


> Actually yes, a number of Department Stores over the past year reduced their floor count, and thus have fewer escalators to maintain, and less strain on elevators. Stores from Bloomingdale's, to Boscov's, to Macy's, to Nordstrom, to Saks 5th Avenue, all have closed off entire floors in lower volume suburban locations with more than 1 floor. Speaking of Department Stores one reason why there are fewer and fewer restaurants in these stores is that while they were never expected to make money, they still had a budget to say within, and when the losses got out of hand, it was time to let them go.
> 
> Ken



And if there is an escalator, you may find it is often not functional and is instead being used as stairs. That happens in the Poughkeepsie Macy’s on a regular basis.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

Winecliff Station said:


> And if there is an escalator, you may find it is often not functional and is instead being used as stairs. That happens in the Poughkeepsie Macy’s on a regular basis.


I've been in malls and convention centers where the escalators were turned off during supposed "low traffic" hours; I prefer using an elevator then (esp. if I need to travel multiple floors, say from a parking garage to a skywalk). Haven't been on an Amtrak sleeping car since Slumbercoach days, however, so good question how often I'd want to deal with stairs in Superliner cars.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

Sidney said:


> Again...if flexible dining is here to stay,and I'm afraid it is,why can't there be an improvement in what is being offered?


My personal opinion is Amtrak management is being disingenuous in their support of the long distance trains. They’re saying what they have to say to appease Congress. No organization can be this inept. Lucky for them other parts of the transportation system are having issues too. Time will tell but we need some results not just hollow words and promises. I feel like we just keep getting strung along. I will be very surprised if the Silvers get true dining car service back.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I feel like we just keep getting strung along. I will be very surprised if the Silvers get true dining car service back.


Are you saying you think they're doing nothing and sticking with flexible dining or that the upgrade will be disappointing? I would say the former is highly unlikely - the latter is certainly possible. I think the million dollar question is what the staffing will be and how much of what they're doing out west will they be able to do and how it will differ.

I don't think they're just stringing people along - it isn't a guarantee that what comes will satisfy all of us but surely some changes are coming. People said the same thing when they announced the return of traditional dining out west that it would never return, and then also said that daily service would never return etc...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

lordsigma said:


> I don't think they're just stringing people along - it isn't a guarantee that what comes will satisfy all of us but surely some changes are coming. People said the same thing when they announced the return of traditional dining out west that it would never return, and then also said that daily service would never return etc...


What good is traditional dining at intercontinental business class pricing? What good is a cheap ticket on a tiny Texas Eaglet? Unlike Amtrak's public relations team we tell it like it is because we do not benefit from muddying the water with endless platitudes and subterfuge.


----------



## fdaley

Devil's Advocate said:


> What good is traditional dining at intercontinental business class pricing? What good is a cheap ticket on a tiny Texas Eaglet? Unlike Amtrak's public relations team we tell it like it is because we do not benefit from muddying the water with endless platitudes and manipulative subterfuge.


I think the reason some of us have lost confidence is that Amtrak's leaders of 2018-19 had the gall to claim that their "contemporary" and "flexible" food programs were actually an improvement, that this is what surveys showed customers wanted, that millennials would flock to trains because of this change, and so on. 

If they had just said, "We're going to serve you slop from now on because the Mica amendment requires us to spend less on food service," that would at least have seemed plausible. Now, here we are nearly five years later, the Mica amendment has been gone for awhile, but we still have some variation of the Anderson food program on all but a handful of LD trains and only vague talk of some future improvement on anything other than the Florida trains.


----------



## MARC Rider

fdaley said:


> "We're going to serve you slop from now on because the Mica amendment requires us to spend less on food service," that would at least have seemed plausible. Now, here we are nearly five years later, the Mica amendment has been gone for awhile, but we still have some variation of the Anderson food program on all but a handful of LD trains and only vague talk of some future improvement on anything other than the Florida trains.


There's also been some improvement of quality in the offerings in the cafe cars, too.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> Are you saying you think they're doing nothing and sticking with flexible dining or that the upgrade will be disappointing? I would say the former is highly unlikely - the latter is certainly possible. I think the million dollar question is what the staffing will be and how much of what they're doing out west will they be able to do and how it will differ.
> 
> I don't think they're just stringing people along - it isn't a guarantee that what comes will satisfy all of us but surely some changes are coming. People said the same thing when they announced the return of traditional dining out west that it would never return, and then also said that daily service would never return etc...


I think it will return, but this years long delay is ridiculous, especially since they've acknowledged something has to be done about flex.

Kicking it to a committee, as they have, rather than management seeing a problem and taking action is a symptom of either incompetence or an actual desire to delay and stonewall. Neither explanation speaks well of Amtrak management.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> I think it will return, but this years long delay is ridiculous, especially since they've acknowledged something has to be done about flex.
> 
> Kicking it to a committee, as they have, rather than management seeing a problem and taking action is a symptom of either incompetence or an actual desire to delay and stonewall. Neither explanation speaks well of Amtrak management.


I think the real problem is that the Amtrak Board is a bunch of potted plants who cannot make any decision that might upset any of their "water providers" or even Ammanagement whom they are supposed to be managing, and when in doubt they like to sit on their thumbs. This is something that they could fix if they would make any decision about any operational matter and enforce it with Amtrak Executives to act on it instead of sitting around rubber stamping whatever comes to them from Ammanagement. But I am getting off topic here. This is not the first time that a weak and ineffectual Board has caused a company to be run ineffectively.


----------



## flitcraft

crescent-zephyr said:


> The operation of the diners is also an issue, they are not operated to maximize profits. Here are a few ways to maximize profits a
> 
> 1- longer hours for meal service. Most restaurants don’t close between breakfast, lunch and dinner - they operate all day and never turn away customers.
> 
> 2- advertise “room service” for sleeping car passengers so that more ask for it - that frees up space in the diner allowing more coach passengers to eat.
> 
> 3- “at your seat” meals for coach passengers delivered by coach attendants. These were tested and proved successful.
> 
> 4- encourage upsells. You want guests to order more drinks etc. give them time and encourage “another drink?”


All great ideas to make dining a more profitable aspect of LD trains. As for the suggestion regarding upsells, I recall from my days waiting tables that a tab should never be considered final till the customer walked out the door! Of course, that means that Number 4 is conditioned on Suggestion Nos 1 and 2 being acted on. Encouraging dawdling over an extra drink works best if the table can continued to be turned for other passengers, which might well mean that dining seats and dining hours need to be expanded for it to work.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

flitcraft said:


> All great ideas to make dining a more profitable aspect of LD trains. As for the suggestion regarding upsells, I recall from my days waiting tables that a tab should never be considered final till the customer walked out the door! Of course, that means that Number 4 is conditioned on Suggestion Nos 1 and 2 being acted on. Encouraging dawdling over an extra drink works best if the table can continued to be turned for other passengers, which might well mean that dining seats and dining hours need to be expanded for it to work.


Yes very true. But even with needing to turn tables beginning the service with the suggestion of an upsell (would you like any beer or wine to get started? Perhaps a mixed drink?) and then asking if anyone “wants another” during the meal can go a long way. 

there’s another idea…. Paid wine tastings in between lunch and dinner, or a special happy hour where appetizers are offered.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Kicking it to a committee, as they have, rather than management seeing a problem and taking action is a symptom of either incompetence or an actual desire to delay and stonewall. Neither explanation speaks well of Amtrak management.


If you're referring to the food and beverage committee that was a congressional decision - and hasn't yet completed its deliverables I don't believe. I believe the decision to bring dining back to the Silvers this fiscal year was made in FY22 as they appeared to begin hiring for it then. There had been rumors about them sending a diner down to New Orleans for training recently but if they're really thinking about that route they aren't saying it at this point (Larry Chestler said only the Silvers are part of current plans) and it wouldn't be this fiscal year. Harris had said in an interview that after they finish with implementing the changes on the Star and Meteor that they will turn attention to the remaining flexible dining routes but it sounds like it's very early and they may wait until the committee makes recommendations before making any other changes - I think the only reason they're moving ahead with the Silvers is because the decision was made before that committee started.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If you’re going to pick and choose silver trains definitely make the most sense. Those trains are typically full with many passengers traveling from the NE to Florida - meaning vacationers / snow birds riding over multiple meal periods. 

The crescent and lake shore are a bit different but of course historically speaking the lake shore had more coach passengers using the diner than other trains I believe?


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> If you're referring to the food and beverage committee that was a congressional decision - and hasn't yet completed its deliverables I don't believe.


Maybe if Amtrak management would have acted to improve their woeful F&B, Congress would not have had to step in with a directive.

That's two levels of failure before it gets to Congress. Amtrak executive management and Amtrak's Board.

I don't think it is too much to ask that Amtrak management actually make decisions within a timeframe of years without Congressional directives. But it seems like it is.

As @jis said, "potted plants".

As to the "committee deliverables", to quote Robert Heinlein, "A committee is the only known form of life with 10 stomachs and no brain."

Committees, congressionally directed or no, are no substitute for competent, knowledgeable, and decisive management. They are wonderful for poor management to hide behind, though.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes very true. But even with needing to turn tables beginning the service with the suggestion of an upsell (would you like any beer or wine to get started? Perhaps a mixed drink?) and then asking if anyone “wants another” during the meal can go a long way.
> 
> there’s another idea…. Paid wine tastings in between lunch and dinner, or a special happy hour where appetizers are offered.


There used to be such things on the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder, and even the Lake Shore out of Chicago had a Wine and Cheese Reception in the Diner for Sleeper Passengers beford the 930pm Departure..


----------



## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> There used to be such things on the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder, and even the Lake Shore out of Chicago had a Wine and Cheese Reception in the Diner for Sleeper Passengers beford the 930pm Departure..


That was before John Mica decided that Amtrak serving wine was the underlying cause of the federal deficit.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> There used to be such things on the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder, and even the Lake Shore out of Chicago had a Wine and Cheese Reception in the Diner for Sleeper Passengers beford the 930pm Departure..


I remember them all and loved them. But to be fair, I was suggesting that type of service for purchase as a way to earn revenue.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I remember them all and loved them. But to be fair, I was suggesting that type of service for purchase as a way to earn revenue.


I agree, but as I remember passengers did purchase lots of the Wines and the Cheeses that were served on the Starlight (from California,Oregon and Washington State) after attending the tastings in the Parlour Car.( another Sadly missed Enhancement!)


----------



## hermit

Bob Dylan said:


> I agree, but as I remember passengers did purchase lots of the Wines and the Cheeses that were served on the Starlight (from California,Oregon and Washington State) after attending the tastings in the Parlour Car.( another Sadly missed Enhancement!)


I miss the Parlour Car on The Coast Starlight! The wine tastings were always a fun time!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> I agree, but as I remember passengers did purchase lots of the Wines and the Cheeses that were served on the Starlight (from California,Oregon and Washington State) after attending the tastings in the Parlour Car.( another Sadly missed Enhancement!)


Yes indeed! Towards the later days I even remember a Parlour Car attendant encouraging wine sales to help motivate Amtrak to keep the PPC. 

I would regularly order a glass of wine at dinner in the PPC - I did my part!


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Maybe if Amtrak management would have acted to improve their woeful F&B, Congress would not have had to step in with a directive.
> 
> That's two levels of failure before it gets to Congress. Amtrak executive management and Amtrak's Board.
> 
> I don't think it is too much to ask that Amtrak management actually make decisions within a timeframe of years without Congressional directives. But it seems like it is.
> 
> As @jis said, "potted plants".
> 
> As to the "committee deliverables", to quote Robert Heinlein, "A committee is the only known form of life with 10 stomachs and no brain."
> 
> Committees, congressionally directed or no, are no substitute for competent, knowledgeable, and decisive management. They are wonderful for poor management to hide behind, though.


Fair enough but congress itself kind of created this mess in the first place (namely John Mica.) Amtrak certainly can be dysfunctional in more ways than one but the food service mess firmly started in DC. And in fairness Amtrak has made some moves on the food service front - traditional dining out west is much improved over what it was when it came back. And even in flexible dining they have tried to respond and update to some customer complaints (lack of breakfast items for instance) yes it’s still flex dining but I think they’ve tried to make it more tolerable and I think the cafe adjustments are also substantive. Those things were all done on Amtrak’s own initiative. And again the silver service dining improvements was also made before the committee. Clearly there’s certain routes Amtrak management doesn’t seem to know what to do with and I’m not really defending them per se but I really blame this mostly on the Mica nonsense.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> I agree, but as I remember passengers did purchase lots of the Wines and the Cheeses that were served on the Starlight (from California,Oregon and Washington State) after attending the tastings in the Parlour Car.( another Sadly missed Enhancement!)


I'm not a wine fan but I bought some because it was enjoyable. I have not bought anything since the end of local wines on PPC.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> I’m not really defending them per se but I really blame this mostly on the Mica nonsense.


Well, I agree that the Mica Amendment was what caused the mess in food service in the first place. But Mica lost his seat in the 2016 election and the Mica Amendment was repealed in like 2019 or 2020.

I don't like Congressional micromanagement and it has mostly been bad for Amtrak until very recently. I find it galling has been necessary for Congress to stop or reverse Amtrak's own management's actions like the SW Chief bus bridge, removal of agents, less than daily operation. And now decent food in the east.

I still maintain what is necessary is a clean sweep of the Board, especially Coscia. President Biden had an opportunity to do that and unfortunately punted it, but I concede he had bigger things to attend to than the makeup of the Amtrak board. I do, however, hold Buttigieg responsible, as DOT probably had the largest role in finding and vetting nominees, and they renominate Coscia?! Was the criteria "well, he managed not to destroy Amtrak entirely?"

A new board would then ideally clean out Amtrak's C suite. My opinion being the CEO/COO positions should be held by someone from the hospitality industry, not the airlines, considering that folks with actual railroad passenger management experience are pretty much no longer with us.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Well, I agree that the Mica Amendment was what caused the mess in food service in the first place. But Mica lost his seat in the 2016 amendment and the Mica Amendment was repealed in like 2019 or 2020.



The Mica Amendment was repealed in the infrastructure and jobs act. It was de-teethed somewhat in an earlier CR bill at the very end of FY20 if I recall in fact right before they went to tri weekly (the Mica amendment was amended to remove the enforcement mechanism on funds being used on F&B losses) but the underlying directive on reducing F&B costs remained until the IIJA. Both were well after Amtrak was in pandemic hell so the timeframe on doing anything can easily be blamed on that.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> The Mica Amendment was repealed in the infrastructure and jobs act. It was de-teethed somewhat in an earlier CR bill at the very end of FY20 if I recall in fact right before they went to tri weekly (the Mica amendment was amended to remove the enforcement mechanism on funds being used on F&B losses) but the underlying directive on reducing F&B costs remained until the IIJA. Both were well after Amtrak was in pandemic hell so the timeframe on doing anything can easily be blamed on that.


Well, you do have a point on the Mica Amendment didn't fully go away until September 2020. I also concede that the return (and improvement) of traditional dining on the western trains likely would not have happened had it not been repealed. But traditional dining returned to the western trains pretty much with daily service in late spring/early summer 2021. This 18 month and counting delay in implementing something in the east, especially waiting for the congressionally directed committee, still strikes me as dithering.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Well, you do have a point on the Mica Amendment didn't fully go away until September 2020. I also concede that the return (and improvement) of traditional dining on the western trains likely would not have happened had it not been repealed. But traditional dining returned to the western trains pretty much with daily service in late spring/early summer 2021. This 18 month and counting delay in implementing something in the east, especially waiting for the congressionally directed committee, still strikes me as dithering.


It didn't fully go away until November 15, 2021. It was amended in September 2020.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> It didn't fully go away until November 15, 2021. It was amended in September 2020.


Still, once the legislation passed, they could start planning.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Still, once the legislation passed, they could start planning.


Given they started hiring for the Silvers as early as Spring 2022 they seemed to have made that decision fairly early possibly even before the IIJA. In the east that's really the logical place to start given the dining cars are running on the train and the Meteor is probably the place where flex dining had the most negative effect on customer satisfaction. For the rest of the routes I'm not sure they've even decided what they want to do yet - probably letting the committee weigh in given the IIJA simultaneously removed Mica and also put in the F&B committee requirement.

Unfortunately also given the realities of stored cars and how they are having difficulty even keeping up with revenue cars that factors in as well. It may be that what the other routes get is not the same as what the Silvers get.


----------



## west point

lordsigma said:


> It didn't fully go away until November 15, 2021. It was amended in September 2020.


So why did Amtrak not start hiring for OBS until fFeb - Mar 2022?


----------



## JRR

fdaley said:


> I think the reason some of us have lost confidence is that Amtrak's leaders of 2018-19 had the gall to claim that their "contemporary" and "flexible" food programs were actually an improvement, that this is what surveys showed customers wanted, that millennials would flock to trains because of this change, and so on.
> 
> If they had just said, "We're going to serve you slop from now on because the Mica amendment requires us to spend less on food service," that would at least have seemed plausible. Now, here we are nearly five years later, the Mica amendment has been gone for awhile, but we still have some variation of the Anderson food program on all but a handful of LD trains and only vague talk of some future improvement on anything other than the Florida trains.


It never ever had anything to do with MICA. If they had wanted to do anything, all they had to do was make a proper accounting.

Who knows what they really think or want to do. Results are all that count!


----------



## fdaley

JRR said:


> It never ever had anything to do with MICA. If they had wanted to do anything, all they had to do was make a proper accounting.
> 
> Who knows what they really think or want to do. Results are all that count!


Well, certainly my feeling at the time was that the Mica amendment provided cover for gutting a service that Anderson and his team didn't really see the value of. I mean, I think they really would have tried replacing the Chief with buses between Kansas City and Albuquerque if Congress hadn't stopped them. 

And as an accounting matter, figuring out the cost-recovery of dining service always seemed like an arbitrary exercise given a system in which most of the revenue came from accommodation charges for sleeper rooms that were sold at wildly varying prices.


----------



## jis

fdaley said:


> And as an accounting matter, figuring out the cost-recovery of dining service always seemed like an arbitrary exercise given a system in which most of the revenue came from accommodation charges for sleeper rooms that were sold at wildly varying prices.


I know people here have ahd difficulty believing the fact that the amount of money transferred from the transport account to the revenue account was computed based on the sales receipts in the Diner and Lounge and not using some arbitrary algorithm. The higher buckets of ticket price did not proportionately contribute to the bottom line of the F&B account. What was less based on something concrete by item on a train was the allocated cost of staff, and still is AFAIK.

Yes, they could have transferred some convenient arbitrary proportion of each Sleeper ticket sold to the F&B account, but that is not how it was done. But if someone still wants to believe otherwise and argue about it, ...... All that including the food cost for Sleeper passengers was to hopefully get more of them to actually use the Diner. When it was instituted that apparently was a problem since even people like me did not use the diner for many of the big and expensive meals, opting for cheaper cafe fare instead. I stuck with the Slumbercoaches and avoided full Sleepers for this reason for as long as I could.


----------



## lordsigma

JRR said:


> It never ever had anything to do with MICA. If they had wanted to do anything, all they had to do was make a proper accounting.
> 
> Who knows what they really think or want to do. Results are all that count!



Amtrak clearly is aware and maneuvers itself with the politics. Whether it was Mica specifically or the administration that was in power at the time that every year of its budget (all of Trump’s president’s budgets were essentially written by anti Amtrak think tank the Heritage Foundation) proposed cutting Amtrak subsidies - who knows. I personally believe Anderson was brought in specifically because of the administration in power. I suspect Gardner as CEO was the long term plan but they didn’t want to move on that until there was a Democratic administration. I think the reason for the airline guys was because of who was in the White House and wanting to have an image of balancing the books.


----------



## fdaley

jis said:


> I know people here have ahd difficulty believing the fact that the amount of money transferred from the transport account to the revenue account was computed based on the sales receipts in the Diner and Lounge and not using some arbitrary algorithm. The higher buckets of ticket price did not proportionately contribute to the bottom line of the F&B account. What was less based on something concrete by item on a train was the allocated cost of staff, and still is AFAIK.
> 
> Yes, they could have transferred some convenient arbitrary proportion of each Sleeper ticket sold to the F&B account, but that is not how it was done. But if someone still wants to believe otherwise and argue about it, ...... All that including the food cost for Sleeper passengers was to hopefully get more of them to actually use the Diner. When it was instituted that apparently was a problem since even people like me did not use the diner for many of the big and expensive meals, opting for cheaper cafe fare instead. I stuck with the Slumbercoaches and avoided full Sleepers for this reason for as long as I could.


I wasn't intending to argue about Amtrak's accounting method so much as to point out that from the average sleeper passenger's perspective, that process may seem arbitrary and mysterious given that most of us have not paid a menu price for dining car meals for well over 30 years. The meals became part of a service package included in the cost of our rooms, and on many trains it was by far the most significant service provided beyond our beds and bedding. But for the past few years, the meal service on most trains has been severely degraded while the prices of sleeper rooms have remained the same or even gone up. It seems odd that Amtrak would not anticipate that this would alienate a chunk of their customers.


----------



## dcipjr

I recently traveled PHL - LAS via the Capitol Limited and Southwest Chief. The difference in quality between Flex Dining and Traditional Dining was staggering.

The Flex food wasn't awful, but it was pretty rough, below my standards at least. Flex Dining is so wasteful, too, with tons of single-use plastics. The attendant microwaved our meals in front of us, and the entire experience felt really, really cheap—worse than it did in 2021 when I made the same journey.

By contrast, the Traditional Dining was wonderful, with great attendants (shout out to Nacho on the Chief!) and good food. The experience was so much better that it might has well have been a different class of service.

All excuses aside, Amtrak needs to get Traditional Dining back on the eastern routes as soon as possible.

The Superliner IIs are also in _desperate_ need of refurbishment. They are looking really, really shabby. Carpet on the walls—I'm looking at _you_.

It still was a great trip, aside from a 6 hour delay out of Chicago because of a busted pipe in the transdorm.


----------



## zephyr17

fdaley said:


> It seems odd that Amtrak would not anticipate that this would alienate a chunk of their customers.


I am pretty sure they do not care.

Amtrak management has been focused entirely on cost containment for many years. They don't consider revenue enhancement opportunities (aside from letting limited supply allow them to become ever more aggressive in yield management which costs pretty much nothing). They'll pass up a dollar to save a dime.

They also would clearly prefer not to run long distance trains at all. Why be concerned about customers you really don't want anyway?


----------



## jis

fdaley said:


> I wasn't intending to argue about Amtrak's accounting method so much as to point out that from the average sleeper passenger's perspective, that process may seem arbitrary and mysterious given that most of us have not paid a menu price for dining car meals for well over 30 years. The meals became part of a service package included in the cost of our rooms, and on many trains it was by far the most significant service provided beyond our beds and bedding. But for the past few years, the meal service on most trains has been severely degraded while the prices of sleeper rooms have remained the same or even gone up. It seems odd that Amtrak would not anticipate that this would alienate a chunk of their customers.


That is not a surprise since that was the entire purpose of the Mica Amendment which led to this degradation. It has little to do with any new accounting trickery. It is the old Congress and Volpe inspired accounting all along.


----------



## finleyd

I recently traveled on the Silver Star from Phil to Orlando. Our SCA announced over the speaker that Traditional Dining was returning soon. I sure hope he was right


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I’ll be onboard Silver Star NYP to KIS on 4/30. If traditional dining has returned by then, I promise to post pictures and document the experience!


----------



## Rasputin

Has any date, including the year, been announced by anyone in senior management at Amtrak concerning when traditional dining will be returning to the Florida trains?


----------



## joelkfla

Rasputin said:


> Has any date, including the year, been announced by anyone in senior management at Amtrak concerning when traditional dining will be returning to the Florida trains?


IIRC "early 2023" was stated at the RPA webinar in November.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I talked myself into a splurge and changed from a regional to a roomette on today’s Silver Star, traveling from TRE to ALX, so I got lunch. 

I absolutely cannot believe I’m saying this, but lunch was delicious. 

I had the salmon/shrimp dish and it came properly heated, a tender piece of salmon and as large as ones I’ve had when going out to lunch, plus about 4 decent-sized shrimp, all in a delicious sauce, and with the brown rice and veggies cooked just right. 

There was a warm roll and butter, and even though you needed a microscope to see the salad, the lettuce was fresh and crisp and the one lonely tiny tomato was fine.

But I wasn’t that interested in the salad, anyway. I was more interested in the butter cake that was a dessert choice. Absolutely delicious. But extremely rich—I ate a third of it and took the rest with me for the next couple of days.

By the way, John, my SCA, was wonderful. I’ve had him before. And the SCA in the other sleeper saw me when I was getting off at ALX (they jointly helped me down the steps and onto the platform), and he remembered me (and I remembered him)—he also was wonderful.

I mention that because I really believe a good crew makes each other better, and it may be that more care was taken in this kitchen because of that.


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## lordsigma

Glad to hear you had a great trip. TBH some of the flex items especially the current ones are halfway decent when prepared properly. I’d still prefer traditional dining and hope it returns but on a shorter trip like the lake shore a couple of the options aren’t horrendous. I could see though how a departure from proper prep could totally screw them up though.


----------



## joelkfla

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I had the salmon/shrimp dish and it came properly heated, a tender piece of salmon and as large as ones I’ve had when going out to lunch, plus about 4 decent-sized shrimp, all in a delicious sauce, and with the brown rice and veggies cooked just right.


I've had a delicious salmon dish, too. But on the other leg of the same trip, the salmon was dry, the sauce coagulated, and the broccoli and half of the rice burnt. And the same goes for the curry noodles.


----------



## rdbarnes2000

I just returned on Dec 26th NYC-Deland,Fl, the conductor said dining service would resume Jan 6th of this yr., several of the other workers said it won't be quite what we have seen in the past. It will be under staffed (on purpose) according to them, to make it fail. I look forward to trying it, as I'm sure you will be, kudo's to Amtrak.


----------



## Mailliw

That sounds equal parts encouraging and discouraging.


----------



## Cal

rdbarnes2000 said:


> I just returned on Dec 26th NYC-Deland,Fl, the conductor said dining service would resume Jan 6th of this yr., several of the other workers said it won't be quite what we have seen in the past. It will be under staffed (on purpose) according to them, to make it fail. I look forward to trying it, as I'm sure you will be, kudo's to Amtrak.


Hmm. We will HOPEFULLY see tomorrow.


----------



## joelkfla

rdbarnes2000 said:


> I just returned on Dec 26th NYC-Deland,Fl, the conductor said dining service would resume Jan 6th of this yr., several of the other workers said it won't be quite what we have seen in the past.


We'd already heard that it might be a limited version, like maybe a reduced number of selections, which may be OK for single-night trains. I'll be happy just to get fresh-cooked pancakes, french toast, or waffles with bacon in the morning. I hope it's not just egg dishes. 



rdbarnes2000 said:


> It will be under staffed (on purpose) according to them, to make it fail. I look forward to trying it, as I'm sure you will be, kudo's to Amtrak.



Or maybe it will be understaffed because they're still trying to find and train the staff.


----------



## lordsigma

Prior to cutting down to flexible dining on the Meteor and Crescent I think it was just 3 in the diner when they ran it in the Viewliners. An LSA-diner, one server (SA), and the chef. I don't believe there was a food specialist.

If they're doing it with less staff it's probably not designed to make it fail - it's probably more management (for better or worse) trying to have it both ways and hit a sweet spot between the labor costs of traditional dining and the flex meals with their higher food costs. Basically trying to find a way to take advantage of the lower food costs of traditional dining without the full labor costs of traditional dining out west while improving CSI a bit. I think the higher food costs of flex dining on the longer single level routes like the Meteor where they have to buy a lot more of the individual meals from the vendor nullify some of the savings of reducing the labor. I think that's what the idea is. Whether this approach will work we shall see. I did suspect it would probably be not quite what they're doing out west with less staff. And its probably appropriate on a single night train. The question is whether it will work and will the staff be able to handle it.


----------



## Cal

So.. is it back today?


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> So.. is it back today?


Anyone want to bet?

I'll put some up some long odds...against.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> t's probably more management (for better or worse) trying to have it both ways and hit a sweet spot


They couldn't hit a sweet spot on the side of a barn made out of s'mores.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> So.. is it back today?


I asked on the Silvers Facebook group. A party that was on the train said it was not, and their SCA said maybe February. Somebody else there has been saying March.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> Or maybe it will be understaffed because they're still trying to find and train the staff.


I heard that the current class of trainees has been delayed in completing their training. And that the start date was pushed back because of this.

Any talk about “to kill it” is just that, talk.


----------



## Rasputin

Maybe February, maybe March, maybe April, maybe May, maybe June.


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> Maybe February, maybe March, maybe April, maybe May, maybe June.


That is the very nature of discussing unfounded rumors, quite a bit more so than Amtrak official announcements which also move sometimes, but much less often than the "My SCA told me so" ones.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> They couldn't hit a sweet spot on the side of a barn made out of s'mores.



We shall see whether the attempt to have it both ways is feasible. That’s just what I see as the rationale from some remarks they’ve made - whether it will work out with the staffing they’re assigning it or whether people will be satisfied remains to be seen. I do think it doesn’t have to be 100% the same as out west in order to satisfy most riders and for it to be an improvement, but I do hope the desire to try to do it with less staffing doesn’t overwhelm the staffing assigned. I’d think they’d need at least 2 dedicated staff with possibly an SCA helping at busy times. The V2 diner certainly has fewer tables than the Superliner so they don’t need a staff of 5 but again we shall see.


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> I asked on the Silvers Facebook group. A party that was on the train said it was not, and their SCA said maybe February. Somebody else there has been saying March.


Damn, no one took me up on my wager.


----------



## railiner

It could be that they simply don’t know how long it will take them to reintroduce full service dining. It is better to not announce a firm date, and then fall short, and have to keep pushing it back, losing whatever credibility they may have left.
Instead, when they are ready, just quietly start it, and when they are satisfied that it is going according to expectations, perhaps then announce it with some hoopla.
JMHO…


----------



## Steve4031

I just finished a trip in n the Coast Starlight. I observed 2 employees working in the dining car. They actually did a good job. They wore down at the end of the trip when we had a several hour delay near Portland. They delayed the start of dinner because I think they were waiting to find out what was going to happen. When passengers came in an hour later than normal one said something snarky and one of the employees was not pleased. The other tried to calm him down but was perhaps too bossy. They ended up in a heated argument. I got up and told them they had done an outstanding job for the trip and conditions. They settled down and kept working.


----------



## Rasputin

Steve4031 said:


> I just finished a trip in n the Coast Starlight. I observed 2 employees working in the dining car. They actually did a good job. They wore down at the end of the trip when we had a several hour delay near Portland. They delayed the start of dinner because I think they were waiting to find out what was going to happen. When passengers came in an hour later than normal one said something snarky and one of the employees was not pleased. The other tried to calm him down but was perhaps too bossy. They ended up in a heated argument. I got up and told them they had done an outstanding job for the trip and conditions. They settled down and kept working.


Wow, I don't recall ever seeing actions like this years ago. Customers were served and employees didn't argue (at least not in front of customers) about who was going to do the work and who wasn't.


----------



## Steve4031

Rasputin said:


> Wow, I don't recall ever seeing actions like this years ago. Customers were served and employees didn't argue (at least not in front of customers) about who was going to do the work and who wasn't.


Welcome to the real world. It happens. I was at the Tavern On The Green in NYC. An employee was saying derogatory things in Spanish about a colleague why she waited on me. I spoke in Spanish to let her know I had caught on. The look on her face was priceless.


----------



## Rasputin

Steve4031 said:


> Welcome to the real world. It happens. I was at the Tavern On The Green in NYC. An employee was saying derogatory things in Spanish about a colleague why she waited on me. I spoke in Spanish to let her know I had caught on. The look on her face was priceless.


When this gets routine on Amtrak, please let me know. I sense that things are moving in that direction.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

My recent trip on the CZ had an interesting scenario in the dining car. One server was in charge of one side of the dining car, the other server had the other side. The Christmas week train only had one sleeper and a dorm that was not booked ( I had one of only 2 roommetes in the dorm sold for the entire EMY-CHI trip).

The two dining attendants did not work together. One server did the early breakfast other did the last hour of breakfast. Very noticeable at dinner, we did the 5pm seating at the end of our meal around 5:50pm the other server came in the dining car with her backpack and shortly after called the 6:15 seating to her side. It worked out well. They both perfusely apologized to coach passengers saying it was a management decision to “take prices off the menus and make the diner sleepers only“. I knew one of the servers from trips past and she blamed it on management, not labor as they had and have had the full compliment of dining crew on the CZ. My dorm sleeper attendant echoed the same sentiment. Literally only having 2 passengers the entire trip he was in sweats at least half the day, both days Lol. Id give the food a solid grade B, employees an A.

We talk about bad employees going off script quite a bit. These were all good senior employees off script but they had a system that worked. Thinking of my other recent trips on the CZ and SWC the servers and cook for most of the dining periods just sat a table and surfed the net on their phones. If they aren’t needed in my opinion it’s just as well they stay in their dorm room if they want. The diner this recent trip had a more professional feel doing it how they did.


Do I wish there was standardization and enough business to keep everyone busy all the time? Yes, but that’s not the case overall on the west coast diners now.


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## Steve4031

When you cut labor and increase workload it increases stress on the employees involved. You put enough pressure on a person and their human side will show. The waiters on the Coast Starlight employed a similar system where each worked one-half of the diner. After their disagreement, both did a professional job working with the passengers. They did their best not to let their disagreement affect the passengers.


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## Amtrakfflyer

I think the CS is a different beast. Having ridden it 50 plus times when we lived in cali that train is special, it’s the perfect long distance train over multiple corridors, hence it carries a lot of corridor traffic in addition to 500 plus mi riders. The dining car was always busy.

It seems to me more local management needs to be involved in the long distance trains and especially the diners. Programs like, “Amtrak West”, “TEMPO”, empowered employees like BrIan Rosenwald, all got the job done. Waiting a year for a central dining committee to make recommendations is a noble thought and effort but it needs to be at a more local level. Traditional dining lunch served on the CS between LAX and SBA is a lot different than the same lunch on the SWC passing through Lamy, NM.

Management needs to ride the entire network, eat the food, experience the service or delegate it to someone who will.


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## arrow3

Thinking about booking a trip on the Coast Starlight this summer. I was wondering about single passengers in the dining car. Do you share a table with other single passengers like in the past, or do you get your own table now? Thank you.


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## trimetbusfan

arrow3 said:


> Thinking about booking a trip on the Coast Starlight this summer. I was wondering about single passengers in the dining car. Do you share a table with other single passengers like in the past, or do you get your own table now? Thank you.


It is communal and you will most likely share the table with others


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