# Sleeper train revival in Europe



## MARC Rider

This article came out last July, but I just noticed it:

'People don't want to fly': Covid-19 reawakens Europe's sleeper trains | World news | The Guardian

One interesting is that the article mentions the financial hurdles seem to involve the fact that a sleeper had a lower capacity than a regular coach, the sleeper car is only in revenue service for one trip per day, and track access charges as trains cross national borders can add up. Nobody seems to be harping on the cost of "overpaid" unionized sleeping car attendants. And the fares can be cheap -- they quote a Brussels to Vienna ride as starting at about 30 Euros. I wonder how this compares to Amtrak, or whether Amtrak could develop more 1-night sleeper services.


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## Mailliw

I imagine staffing is alot easier for trains that depart at night after dinnertime with beds already made up an passengers expected to turn in soon after.


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## 20th Century Rider

The idea of sleeper train revival came into view recently... Europe has an extensive rail system and night trains can connect major city pairs with speedy trains. The 'sweet space' is for cities that are 6 to 9 hours apart. When you factor in travel to the airport, check in, fly, return to city center for a hotel stay... and carbon footprint... night trains re-emerge in terms of time, expense, and overall practicability.

A similar possibility for Amtrak would be the return of night service from DC to Boston; or through NYC continuing to Montreal. NYP itself is not in that 'sweet spot' due to it's close proximity to BOS and DCA... but night service to Montreal was available in the past and it may be a good time to start rethinking that. The boarder checkpoint is just before Montreal allowing a nights sleep, or passengers could pre check in a secure area before boarding. In the West night sleeper services between LAX and SFO have long been discussed. Lots of possibilities.  

And... lots of news on this topic.









Europe to Revive Several International Night Train Routes


The routes will make it easier to travel by train between several major European cities.




www.afar.com













How Europe's night trains came back from the dead


Sleeper trains in Europe are making a comeback after a decade of budget and route cuts. But post-Covid-19 and with travelers prioritizing the environment, the romance of the night train is back on track.




www.cnn.com













Europe to revive international night train links


BERLIN (AP) — Four European rail companies announced Tuesday they plan to boost the continent's network of night train connections by reviving routes that were dropped several years ago for cost reasons.




apnews.com


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## Mailliw

A border preclearance facility at Gare Centrale Montreal has been in the works for years; completion is a prerequisite for a night train. No matter how conveniently scheduled a two hour border wait is too long. Toronto-NYC is other good route for a night train; assuming preclearance in Toronto. Chicago-Toronto might work too. Domestically Pittsburgh-NYC is a good candidate. So is LA-Bay Area/Sacramento, but that seems really unlikely CA would go for it with the focus on HSR.


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Toronto-NYC is other good route for a night train; assuming preclearance in Toronto. Chicago-Toronto might work too.


Both routes have had overnight trains in the past - the first both pre and under Amtrak; the latter pre-Amtrak only. Pre-clearance in Toronto is never going to happen as long as any train makes stops in Ontario. The Maple Leaf made five and the International fluctuated between nine and eleven.


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## Mailliw

True, geography isn't on Toronto's side. I was thinking maybe an overnight train could avoid intermediate stops in Ontario and run sealed to the border?


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## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> The idea of sleeper train revival came into view recently... Europe has an extensive rail system and night trains can connect major city pairs with speedy trains. The 'sweet space' is for cities that are 6 to 9 hours apart. When you factor in travel to the airport, check in, fly, return to city center for a hotel stay... and carbon footprint... night trains re-emerge in terms of time, expense, and overall practicability.


I saw one trip report that said a particular train was scheduled to spend a couple of hours standing in an enroute station, just so it's departure and arrival times would be at reasonable hours. I think the departure was somewhere around 10pm, and the arrival around 6am.


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## 20th Century Rider

joelkfla said:


> I saw one trip report that said a particular train was scheduled to spend a couple of hours standing in an enroute station, just so it's departure and arrival times would be at reasonable hours. I think the departure was somewhere around 10pm, and the arrival around 6am.



It's not uncommon for night trains around the world to let passengers on early before departure, and remain on them after arrival to insure adequate time for a good nights sleep.

BTW... many complaints have been posted about folks being forced to wake up at 4am as the Texas Eagle approaches LAX; to give the attendants time to clean rooms and prep the car before its 6am arrival. 

That's a no no... it's just not very nice!


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## railbuck

joelkfla said:


> I saw one trip report that said a particular train was scheduled to spend a couple of hours standing in an enroute station, just so it's departure and arrival times would be at reasonable hours. I think the departure was somewhere around 10pm, and the arrival around 6am.


For example, Munich to Vienna takes just over 4 hours by Railjet, but the EuroNight stretches the schedule to 7 hours with an extended stop in Salzburg. I found it more difficult to sleep during the stop without the gentle rocking of the train in motion, and the window shades weren't quite adequate for the bright lights of the station.


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> True, geography isn't on Toronto's side. I was thinking maybe an overnight train could avoid intermediate stops in Ontario and run sealed to the border?


I can't ever see an overnight train between Toronto and New York being viable again. In fact when the border re-opens, service to Niagara Falls is likely to be provided by Toronto's GO Transit, connecting to Amtrak there. (This was well underway pre-Covid, with GO up to 4 frequencies including one running on a schedule remarkably similar to the Maple Leaf - which itself was suspended due to bridge repairs.) Previous sleeper services between the two cities depended on a car or cars from Toronto connecting to an existing mainline train. That train no longer exists nor does the market for a full train between the two. Remember that flying only takes an hour. 

Now with Chicago you might be on to something. Most previous Toronto-Chicago trains of any variety ran through southwestern Ontario via either Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron. That's a long way to go without stopping, and the border was a lot less "formal" when these trains ran. (Customs delays post-911 in both directions doomed the International.) However, a single sleeper or a sleeper and a coach departing Toronto in the evening, attached to the westbound LSL at Buffalo might actually be something to look into. The reverse should work too. Departure and arrival times both ways should be good. There would certainly be logistical issues and whether VIA would want to be involved is anyone's guess. My guess is they wouldn't, so forwarding the consist between Toronto and Buffalo could be a problem. CN or GO could be contracted of course, but Amtrak would have to be the requester to get that ball rolling. As someone who frequently travelled between the two origin cities pre-pandemic I'd certainly be a customer, but would there be any others?


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> I can't ever see an overnight train between Toronto and New York being viable again. In fact when the border re-opens, service to Niagara Falls is likely to be provided by Toronto's GO Transit, connecting to Amtrak there. (This was well underway pre-Covid, with GO up to 4 frequencies including one running on a schedule remarkably similar to the Maple Leaf - which itself was suspended due to bridge repairs.) Previous sleeper services between the two cities depended on a car or cars from Toronto connecting to an existing mainline train. That train no longer exists nor does the market for a full train between the two. Remember that flying only takes an hour.
> 
> Now with Chicago you might be on to something. Most previous Toronto-Chicago trains of any variety ran through southwestern Ontario via either Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron. That's a long way to go without stopping, and the border was a lot less "formal" when these trains ran. (Customs delays post-911 in both directions doomed the International.) However, a single sleeper or a sleeper and a coach departing Toronto in the evening, attached to the westbound LSL at Buffalo might actually be something to look into. The reverse should work too. Departure and arrival times both ways should be good. There would certainly be logistical issues and whether VIA would want to be involved is anyone's guess. My guess is they wouldn't, so forwarding the consist between Toronto and Buffalo could be a problem. CN or GO could be contracted of course, but Amtrak would have to be the requester to get that ball rolling. As someone who frequently travelled between the two origin cities pre-pandemic I'd certainly be a customer, but would there be any others?


As I await being able to visit Ontario again, I hope that theyll decide on a good Transportation plan for both sides of the border.

I know GO will have a good plan, can't say the same for Amtrak or the State of New York!

I look for the Maple Leaf to disappear, and all the Rail on the Niagara Falls to New York City Route will be Empire Service Trains!


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## Willbridge

jiml said:


> I can't ever see an overnight train between Toronto and New York being viable again. In fact when the border re-opens, service to Niagara Falls is likely to be provided by Toronto's GO Transit, connecting to Amtrak there. (This was well underway pre-Covid, with GO up to 4 frequencies including one running on a schedule remarkably similar to the Maple Leaf - which itself was suspended due to bridge repairs.) Previous sleeper services between the two cities depended on a car or cars from Toronto connecting to an existing mainline train. That train no longer exists nor does the market for a full train between the two. Remember that flying only takes an hour.
> 
> Now with Chicago you might be on to something. Most previous Toronto-Chicago trains of any variety ran through southwestern Ontario via either Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron. That's a long way to go without stopping, and the border was a lot less "formal" when these trains ran. (Customs delays post-911 in both directions doomed the International.) However, a single sleeper or a sleeper and a coach departing Toronto in the evening, attached to the westbound LSL at Buffalo might actually be something to look into. The reverse should work too. Departure and arrival times both ways should be good. There would certainly be logistical issues and whether VIA would want to be involved is anyone's guess. My guess is they wouldn't, so forwarding the consist between Toronto and Buffalo could be a problem. CN or GO could be contracted of course, but Amtrak would have to be the requester to get that ball rolling. As someone who frequently travelled between the two origin cities pre-pandemic I'd certainly be a customer, but would there be any others?


MANY years ago I looked into single-night trains for NARP. Even then, the best way to run Chicago-Toronto overnight was via Buffalo rather than via Detroit or Port Huron. That puts the border at a marginal hour better than the awful hours in the middle of the night. The only train that came out of that work was the _North Star _overnight between MSP and CHI. One night trains radiating from Chicago have some of the best connections of any service focal point.


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## Mailliw

jiml said:


> I can't ever see an overnight train between Toronto and New York being viable again. In fact when the border re-opens, service to Niagara Falls is likely to be provided by Toronto's GO Transit, connecting to Amtrak there. (This was well underway pre-Covid, with GO up to 4 frequencies including one running on a schedule remarkably similar to the Maple Leaf - which itself was suspended due to bridge repairs.) Previous sleeper services between the two cities depended on a car or cars from Toronto connecting to an existing mainline train. That train no longer exists nor does the market for a full train between the two. Remember that flying only takes an hour.
> 
> Now with Chicago you might be on to something. Most previous Toronto-Chicago trains of any variety ran through southwestern Ontario via either Windsor/Detroit or Sarnia/Port Huron. That's a long way to go without stopping, and the border was a lot less "formal" when these trains ran. (Customs delays post-911 in both directions doomed the International.) However, a single sleeper or a sleeper and a coach departing Toronto in the evening, attached to the westbound LSL at Buffalo might actually be something to look into. The reverse should work too. Departure and arrival times both ways should be good. There would certainly be logistical issues and whether VIA would want to be involved is anyone's guess. My guess is they wouldn't, so forwarding the consist between Toronto and Buffalo could be a problem. CN or GO could be contracted of course, but Amtrak would have to be the requester to get that ball rolling. As someone who frequently travelled between the two origin cities pre-pandemic I'd certainly be a customer, but would there be any others?


That's an interesting idea. It never occurred to me to run Chicago-Toronto as a section of the Lake Shore Limited. It's basically 3 trains in one. Of course that appears to make way to much sense for Amtrak or VIA.


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## caravanman

European night train options were rather different to most American rail users expectations. While there were "cheap" fares on some overnight routes, these were not typically berths that Amtrak users would be familiar with. A lot of European night trains also offered a car with seating, so a low fare was available. Some trains had compartments with up to six "couchettes", so one shared the compartment with up to 5 others, sometimes of either sex. Again, this offered a low fare by comparison to the 4 berth, double or single berth compartments which were also available.
Trains would often be split and reconnected to other trains at some point in the night, so you might start off with coaches going to Poland, or Austria, Germany, France all being split off later to their respective destinations.
It is several years since I used the services, so I am not up to date with current practice. Given the way Americans seem to prefer absolute privacy when sleeping, I am not sure Amtrak night sleeper trains with bedrooms and roomettes would be able to offer low prices. Let's leave the union bashing aside... Do we really expect employees to subsidise our cheap fares by taking home a low wage?


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## Mailliw

Well, Americans are OK with communal sleeping arrangements in seated coaches, bus, and airplanes. I think there are enough Americans, particularly Gens Y & Z, who'd go for sleeping in a curtained bunk or pod. At least on 1 night trips. It'd basically be the same as a hostel or capsule hotel. Just ensure the upper berths have windows, everyone has outlets galore, and the fares are cheap. Allowing for the ADA bedroom you could fit about 32 berths in an open section arrangement for an overall capacity of 34 passengers.


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## joelkfla

Mailliw said:


> Well, Americans are OK with communal sleeping arrangements in seated coaches, bus, and airplanes. I think there are enough Americans, particularly Gens Y & Z, who'd go for sleeping in a curtained bunk or pod. At least on 1 night trips. It'd basically be the same as a hostel or capsule hotel. Just ensure the upper berths have windows, everyone has outlets galore, and the fares are cheap. Allowing for the ADA bedroom you could fit about 32 berths in an open section arrangement for an overall capacity of 34 passengers.


But on a plane or bus, people are sleeping out in the open. There's no privacy, but there's also safety in numbers. I think many people would be uncomfortable sleeping in an enclosed space with 1 to 5 strangers, as in a couchette.

You point out hostels. Yes, hostels have their market (a small one), but most Americans will not stay in a hostel. Nor have capsule hotels achieved any acceptance in this country.

If there were a way for Amtrak to lease a couple of Pullman style open section cars for 6 months or a year, and test them on an overnight train, like a Silver or the Cardinal, that might be a worthwhile experiment. But building a fleet of cars when you don't know whether anyone will want to buy space on them would be foolhardy.


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## Eric S

Willbridge said:


> MANY years ago I looked into single-night trains for NARP. Even then, the best way to run Chicago-Toronto overnight was via Buffalo rather than via Detroit or Port Huron. That puts the border at a marginal hour better than the awful hours in the middle of the night. The only train that came out of that work was the _North Star _overnight between MSP and CHI. *One night trains radiating from Chicago have some of the best connections of any service focal point.*


I've often been intrigued by the idea of a network of night trains radiating from Chicago. Definitely something I've daydreamed about from time to time.


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## Mailliw

It seems like a car set up with open sections would be easy to convert to roomettes. Though honestly the best approach would probably be to just make cars with an ADA bedroom & roomettes and lower prices simply be increasing capacity.


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## jiml

joelkfla said:


> But on a plane or bus, people are sleeping out in the open. There's no privacy, but there's also safety in numbers. I think many people would be uncomfortable sleeping in an enclosed space with 1 to 5 strangers, as in a couchette.
> 
> You point out hostels. Yes, hostels have their market (a small one), but most Americans will not stay in a hostel. Nor have capsule hotels achieved any acceptance in this country.
> 
> If there were a way for Amtrak to lease a couple of Pullman style open section cars for 6 months or a year, and test them on an overnight train, like a Silver or the Cardinal, that might be a worthwhile experiment. But building a fleet of cars when you don't know whether anyone will want to buy space on them would be foolhardy.


You echo my thoughts. For actual sleeping overnight, upper and lower berths (such as those still in use on VIA) are the lower limit of North American tolerances. An open coach - whether on a train or a plane - always has the possibility of someone noticing suspicious activity. Even European couchettes are not without concerns regarding such things as petty theft and "unwanted contact".


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## caravanman

I doubt there is much of a market in America for bargain price low service sleeping car trains. Most folk on this forum dislike sitting next to "strangers" overnight in coach, and only travel in roomettes or bedrooms. I don't think the sums add up to my way of looking at it. I use hostels, I am happy to share with others in a compartment, but most Americans are not so inclined, in my experience.


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## Mailliw

True, but I think forum membership may skew older and higher income than the general public. Hostels may be a niche market, but that market skews toward Millennials and post-Millennials. Which is exactly the demographic Amtrak needs to build up, and which shows a greater interest in train travel.


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## Devil's Advocate

caravanman said:


> Given the way Americans seem to prefer absolute privacy when sleeping, I am not sure Amtrak night sleeper trains with bedrooms and roomettes would be able to offer low prices.





caravanman said:


> I doubt there is much of a market in America for bargain price low service sleeping car trains.


It's hard to predict what Americans might be willing to use in the future when the only options for decades have been coach seats and private compartments. Some Americans may have a neurotic attitude toward privacy but we also have millions of very trusting couch surfers. The typical Amtrak traveler probably falls somewhere in between these extremes.



caravanman said:


> Most folk on this forum dislike sitting next to "strangers" overnight in coach, and only travel in roomettes or bedrooms.


I've slept next to strangers in coach without issue many times, just like millions of other Americans, but what's different on Amtrak is the lack of divider between the seats and headrests. I don't want to wake up in a stranger's personal space any more than I want them randomly cuddling up to me. So long as mixed use open berths did not suffer from this inexplicable oversight they would be worth a meaningful premium over coach to me.


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## flitcraft

While you're thinking about demographics in this regard, I suspect that women will be less comfortable than men sharing semi-private space. I personally stopped riding Amtrak coach overnight years ago after one annoying episode of a slightly too-friendly guy and a second involving a more overtly groping seatmate. This was enough for me to say, roomettes or bedrooms for overnighters, and coach for daytime only. 

Interestingly, there was a company not long ago marketing an overnight bus between LA and SF that featured individual sleeping 'shelves,' for want of a better descriptor. They apparently did do a fair bit of business with millennials and younger customers, but the ride on the 1-5 was rough enough to discourage repeat business. They shut down temporarily and invented some kind of suspension system which they claimed made the ride as smooth as a train (!) But COVID put them into suspension as a business--possibly permanently.

Still, it does suggest a market for a lie-flat, semi-private transportation option, perhaps especially on corridor routes between cities, where you could leave in the evening and arrive the next morning, but without the sleeplessness and cramped muscles of traveling in a coach type seat.


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## Mailliw

That's why I personally would favor couchettes over open sections. The compartments lock and you can offer female only compartments (just like hostels offer female dorms). Six people is pushing it though, better to stick with 4. Also families could just by a whole compartment.


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## Willbridge

flitcraft said:


> While you're thinking about demographics in this regard, I suspect that women will be less comfortable than men sharing semi-private space. I personally stopped riding Amtrak coach overnight years ago after one annoying episode of a slightly too-friendly guy and a second involving a more overtly groping seatmate. This was enough for me to say, roomettes or bedrooms for overnighters, and coach for daytime only.
> 
> Interestingly, there was a company not long ago marketing an overnight bus between LA and SF that featured individual sleeping 'shelves,' for want of a better descriptor. They apparently did do a fair bit of business with millennials and younger customers, but the ride on the 1-5 was rough enough to discourage repeat business. They shut down temporarily and invented some kind of suspension system which they claimed made the ride as smooth as a train (!) But COVID put them into suspension as a business--possibly permanently.
> 
> Still, it does suggest a market for a lie-flat, semi-private transportation option, perhaps especially on corridor routes between cities, where you could leave in the evening and arrive the next morning, but without the sleeplessness and cramped muscles of traveling in a coach type seat.


As mentioned in another thread last year, berths in buses have been tried out prior to the California service. Pickwick Sleepercoaches plied US99 between Oregon and California in the 1930's, stopping at hotels of the Pickwick chain. Their operating rights is how Continental Trailways got into the Northwest.

My 97-year old father remembers seeing them. His family took the train. Even as a kid he could imagine that it was a rough ride. The biggest advances in overnight bus travel have been automatic transmissions and seat belts (that keep sleepers from being tossed around). Leg-rest seats were the biggest advance in rail coach travel.


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## Timetable World

Sleeper trains in Russia cover huge distances, and the roomettes are designed to convert for day use. It is still how people choose to travel for journeys up to 1,500 miles. I travelled 1st Class Murmansk - Moscow, which took two nights and one day, costing about $130 including food. The roomette was shared with one other, but was unoccupied for the first 24 hours. The trains are not fast but were always punctual. There is usually somewhere to leave your bags on arrival, or a hotel at or near the station, which will store your bags during the day. As city-to-city travel, it compared favourably with spending most of a day at airports/flying/in taxis - and having to pay for 2 more hotel nights.


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## Siegmund

joelkfla said:


> If there were a way for Amtrak to lease a couple of Pullman style open section cars for 6 months or a year, and test them on an overnight train, like a Silver or the Cardinal, that might be a worthwhile experiment. But building a fleet of cars when you don't know whether anyone will want to buy space on them would be foolhardy.



If Amtrak were really clever, they would design a sleeper shell with a modular interior. Easy peasy to plug in sections instead of roomettes, or to change the proportion of roomettes to bedrooms, or to swap out worn-out beds for new ones without having the car out of service for more than a day. Even using the same shell for a sleeper and a coach might be possible.

Turns out this piece of science fiction was actually built, in 1988. Something called a "Viewliner." 33 years later I am still waiting to see the much-vaunted easy-swapout-of-modules-to-reconfigure-the-car-into-anything ability used for the first time. Also still waiting to see the coach and lounge prototypes and waiting to see the 500-car order placed to reequip all the Eastern long distance trains with all-Viewliner consists.


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## v v

On our TransSiberian Moscow to Vladivostok journey a couple of years ago there was 1st, 2nd and 3rd class. This was February and the train was used as a long distance commuter train.

3rd was populated mainly by North Korean guest workers going home, but Russians too, it was full. 2nd was all 4 berth compartments, some mixed, some one sex only, it was maybe 90% full. 1st class was 2 berth compartments, that was close to empty, the entire 6 1/2 day journey only 2 compartments were used, that car was completely soulless as against 3rd and 2nd which were full of life.

Interesting was army and airforce officers travelled 2nd class, it wasn't because 1st class wasn't available as we saw. I think it was the travel pass they were usually given which was a surprise as the officers were Majors and Colonels.

Our party was 3 people in 2nd class, the fourth bunk was used by 3 different men over the journey. Language was a bit of a barrier but travellng with strangers wasn't a problem.
Most interesting was a naval rating who had to pay his own fare, had been home on leave in mid Siberia and was joining his submarine in Vladivostok. The two women I was travelling with were most impressed with his athleticism when on entering the compartment, threw his large duffle bag onto the empty top bunk, then leapt it appeared in one spring to join it!


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## caravanman

Folk might be interested to see this youtube video of a "sleeper bus" operating in India. No, I never used one myself, but the street scenes are very familiar!


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## Devil's Advocate

Siegmund said:


> Turns out this piece of science fiction was actually built, in 1988. Something called a "Viewliner." 33 years later I am still waiting to see the much-vaunted easy-swapout-of-modules-to-reconfigure-the-car-into-anything ability used for the first time.


It honestly sounds like a system unlikely to be used even in the best of circumstances and with Amtrak often struggling to maintain enough rolling stock with so many grade crossing collisions it seems especially impractical here.



v v said:


> On our TransSiberian Moscow to Vladivostok journey a couple of years ago there was 1st, 2nd and 3rd class. This was February and the train was used as a long distance commuter train. [...] 1st class was 2 berth compartments, that was close to empty, the entire 6 1/2 day journey only 2 compartments were used, that car was completely soulless as against 3rd and 2nd which were full of life.


I'm not sure I'd want my passenger car to become a block party. Do Russian trains not have observation cars where people can mix when they want while still having the option for a break when they prefer to be left alone?



Mailliw said:


> That's why I personally would favor couchettes over open sections. The compartments lock and you can offer female only compartments (just like hostels offer female dorms).


So available inventory (and pricing) would be based on gender? Seems like it would better to solve the problem in a way that does not leave one group perpetually disadvantaged for the benefit of another.


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## MARC Rider

Willbridge said:


> Leg-rest seats were the biggest advance in rail coach travel.


I don't know about the leg rests used on the older coaches, but my experience with the leg rests on the Amfleet 2 coaches and the 2X1 Amfleet club seating is that they are pretty much useless. Perhaps the leg rests could be redesigned tp be more comfortable.


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## Asher

Me, I'd share a compartment with whoever as long as proper hygiene etiquette wasn't abused. Asking my wife to go along, I don't think so.


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## v v

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not sure I'd want my passenger car to become a block party. Do Russian trains not have observation cars where people can mix when they want while still having the option for a break when they prefer to be left alone?



Not familiar with the term 'block party' but party in almost any form wasn't how it was.
Full of life meant people stood in corridors, chatted, told jokes, shared food, were polite, discussed stuff. Russians are more reserved than most Europeans or Americans until they decide you are one of them... If there was ever a hint of rowdiness hinted at the car attendant in all the cars soon put a stop to that, usually with a quiet word and then with authority if Vodka drinking had started too early.

During the evenings most remained in their compartments or ate or sat in the dinning car, that was louder than the sleeper cars. There is no observation lounge that we were aware of, it's a commuter train.
The two alternative ultra long distance trains to Mongolia and China carry many more tourists, perhaps they have observation cars but haven't used those as yet to be able to say.

Sometimes compartments were a little louder than the corridor, but that didn't stop the petit female car attendant having a word with a group of 4 officers who were grizzly bear size and had had a drink or two during the day.
Overall more corridor life than the average Amtrak sleeper and a light buzz of sound for most of the day.

I think that if you need a qiete space it would be best to travel 1st class, the problem is you wouldn't have a lot of contact with the people of the country you were visiting.

Just a thought. As that journey is very long most people step onto the platform on the longer stops. Bearing in mind this was February and more than half of the Vladivostok route is through Siberia, so mass evacuation of the train was restricted to daylight and bright weather.
It was interesting as on the long stops the maintainance crew would make rerpairs to water pipes and such like, the car attendants would chip large blocks of ice off of the car suspension, they had specially designed shovels for that, and there was a sort of party atmosphere, genteel maybe but a sort of celebration. It was also where you could buy platform food from the babushkas and the occassional kiosk, it always tasted delicious BTW.
People excercised too in all sorts of ways, and the station buildings were like nothing we had ever seen, lots going on.


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## jiml

"Co-ed" sleeping accommodation with strangers is never going to happen _in an enclosed space_ on North American public transportation. Even the suggestion of it in today's society would have the lawyers rubbing their hands together in anticipation.


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## Mailliw

Well, there are hostels all over the United States and Canada that offer a mix of coed and women-only (& less commonly men-only) dorms. And it's not like that would be the only accommodation on the train.


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## Willbridge

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know about the leg rests used on the older coaches, but my experience with the leg rests on the Amfleet 2 coaches and the 2X1 Amfleet club seating is that they are pretty much useless. Perhaps the leg rests could be redesigned tp be more comfortable.


Some of the earlier leg-rest seats were more comfortable than contemporary seats. But one of the reasons that open section sleeping cars lasted so long in Canada was the use of day coaches on overnight and transcontinental trains. Having traveled in CN day coaches before VIA invented Day-Niters, I'd say that even second-rate leg-rest seats are a boon.

People who rode in them liked Sleepy Hollow seats best. They had a curve that kept legs from sliding off to the side. I suspect they were hard to keep clean when crumbs or dirt got into the "hollow."


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## NS VIA Fan

Unlike my trips in Europe (granted I was a lot younger) where a Couchette shared with others was just fine......here in North America the culture seems to be that if you can afford it you want private accommodations. Nothing between that and a coach seat will do.

One exception here I know of were the 'Dormitory Sleepers' on Marine Atlantic's overnight ferries between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. A couple of large open spaces with rows of bunks (236 in total).....and they were very popular. Cost was $15 more than coach fare. They gave you a pillow and blanket but most just used a sleeping bag. There were no curtains on the bunks, no segregation: men, women, families all slept together in one big room! People just wanted a place to put their head down for the 6 hour overnight crossing as they faced a 950 km drive across the island the next day. Private cabins as well as regular coach seating were also offered.






During the day crossings the Dorm Sleepers pretty well went unoccupied so it was a lot of dead weight (and fuel burn) to be hauling around. Today....the new ferries offer airline-style business class seating (not quite lie-flat) that are used during the day as well as private cabins.


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## jiml

Willbridge said:


> Some of the earlier leg-rest seats were more comfortable than contemporary seats. But one of the reasons that open section sleeping cars lasted so long in Canada was the use of day coaches on overnight and transcontinental trains. Having traveled in CN day coaches before VIA invented Day-Niters, I'd say that even second-rate leg-rest seats are a boon.


Seldom would I question the historical accuracy of any of your posts, however Dayniters were a CN invention - predating VIA by several years.


The 'Dayniter'.....a step above Coach.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> Seldom would I question the historical accuracy of any of your posts, however Dayniters were a CN invention - predating VIA by several years.




Yup....my fist encounter with a DayNiter was in April 1974 when CN dropped the Sydney-Montreal Sleeper and replaced it with a DayNiter.

(You'll note in my post above with the ferry diagram that DayNiters were also offered. These were the same seats as found on CN trains. (Marine Atlantic's roots are in CN Marine)


----------



## Mailliw

I'm willing to overlook any other issue as long as I can lay flat to sleep, but I have to admit that looks like a huge improvement over the Amfleet II coach seating (& it blows busses out of the water). And a 2:1 arrangement could be popular solo travelers. The ideal of course would be a modern version of the Slumbercoach.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

v v said:


> party in almost any form wasn't how it was





v v said:


> people stood in corridors, chatted, told jokes, shared food


Um...



v v said:


> Russians are more reserved than most Europeans or Americans


In my travels anytime there are two or more Russians within shouting distance everyone in the vicinity knows about it.



Mailliw said:


> Well, there are hostels all over the United States and Canada that offer a mix of coed and women-only (& less commonly men-only) dorms. And it's not like that would be the only accommodation on the train.


If you wish to forfeit your own civil rights that's your prerogative but I have no such desire. A plan such as this would likely suffer lawsuits in states that take discrimination seriously and create a major liability at the federal level.


----------



## Mailliw

Devil's Advocate said:


> Um...
> 
> 
> In my travels anytime there are two or more Russians within shouting distance everyone in the vicinity knows about it.
> 
> 
> If you wish to forfeit your own civil rights that's your prerogative but I have no such desire. A plan such as this would likely suffer lawsuits in states that take discrimination seriously and create a major liability at the federal level.


Please explain how that is a forfeiture of civil liberties, how it's discrimination, and how it's going to create liability? Hostels offer Accommodation like this all over the US & Canada including deep blue states like CA and NYS.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Mailliw said:


> Please explain how that is a forfeiture of civil liberties, how it's discrimination, and how it's going to create liability? Hostels offer Accommodation like this all over the US & Canada including deep blue states like CA and NYS.


Do you really need me to explain how dividing people in a protected class based on a trait for which they have no control is considered discrimination, how "separate but equal" is no longer an accepted legal standard, or how civil rights law protects us from discriminatory treatment?


----------



## v v

Devil's Advocate said:


> In my travels anytime there are two or more Russians within shouting distance everyone in the vicinity knows about it.



May I ask where you usually come across Russians?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

v v said:


> May I ask where you usually come across Russians?


From trains and planes to oil fields and tropical resorts. They're surprisingly well traveled for having come from such a closed off country. Chain smoking seems to calm them down but liquor lights them up. I'm sure there are some quiet Russians in much the same way that there are some quiet Americans, but the stereotype holds up in my experience.


----------



## Mailliw

Devil's Advocate said:


> Do you really need me to explain how dividing people in a protected class based on a trait for which they have no control is considered discrimination, how "separate but equal" is no longer an accepted legal standard, or how civil rights law protects us from discriminatory treatment?


Well for starters the "separate but equal" doctrine applied to racial discrimination (which is subject to strict scrutiny) not gender discrimination (intermediate scrutiny). The Supreme Court has ruled several times that gender specific accommodations (restrooms, lockerrooms, sleeping, etc) are permissible. For example colleges (public & private) offer mainly coed dorms and women's dorms; men's dorms ate much rarer due to lack of demand. 
Back on topic it's a moot point anyhow. I just don't see the traditional couchette setup being implemented in North America (except as group or family accommodation). In Europe Nightjet is implementing capsule hotel pods for solo travelers and retaining the 4 berth rooms for families. If implemented in North America that setup up would probably shift the berths so passengers face the direction of travel, but it lacks a day mode. Best solution for US & Canada is probably just to have roomette cars with an ADA bedroom and lower prices by increasing supply.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Mailliw said:


> Well for starters the "separate but equal" doctrine applied to racial discrimination (which is subject to strict scrutiny) not gender discrimination (intermediate scrutiny). The Supreme Court has ruled several times that gender specific accommodations (restrooms, lockerrooms, sleeping, etc) are permissible. For example colleges (public & private) offer mainly coed dorms and women's dorms; men's dorms ate much rarer due to lack of demand.


Education facilities have their own rules that are unlikely to apply to Amtrak and bathrooms appear to be losing some of their protections based on state law. I do not see that happening with changing rooms but I didn't see it happening with bathrooms either so who knows. I personally see the greatest similarity with ride sharing and that has yet to withstand legal challenges in a way that sets a reliable precedent. My money would bet against a _new_ national service that advertises, describes, or implies a gender specific benefit outside of special situations like medicine and education.



Mailliw said:


> Back on topic it's a moot point anyhow. I just don't see the traditional couchette setup being implemented in North America (except as group or family accommodation). In Europe Nightjet is implementing capsule hotel pods for solo travelers and retaining the 4 berth rooms for families. If implemented in North America that setup up would probably shift the berths so passengers face the direction of travel, but it lacks a day mode.


A discrete multi-level capsule pod is a novel solution that I would find quite appealing and would hopefully be well received by average Americans. I'm unsure how to make it ADA compliant under current standards but if it ever does come here I'm trying it and probably making it my default standard in the future. In the past Amtrak was able to receive trial service waivers for foreign trains and I'd like to see that happen with something like this someday.


----------



## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Do you really need me to explain how dividing people in a protected class based on a trait for which they have no control is considered discrimination, how "separate but equal" is no longer an accepted legal standard, or how civil rights law protects us from discriminatory treatment?


Which is why unisex restrooms are the default all across the USA.


----------



## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Do you really need me to explain how dividing people in a protected class based on a trait for which they have no control is considered discrimination, how "separate but equal" is no longer an accepted legal standard, or how civil rights law protects us from discriminatory treatment?


Aside from my snark about restrooms, I should point out that in Philadelphia, there were two college-prep public high schools catering to nerds who didn't want to get beat up if they were to attend their neighborhood high schools. One was Central High School, for boys (I am an alumnus), the other was the Philadelphia High School for Girls ("Girl's High"). In the 1980, a girl sued for the opportunity to attend Central, and Central is now a co-ed school. As far as I know, no boys attend Girl's High. And the courts seem to be OK with this, even though it means that there are more opportunities available for girls in Philadelphia to attend a college-prep high school than there are for boys.


----------



## MARC Rider

v v said:


> 3rd was populated mainly by North Korean guest workers going home, but Russians too, it was full. 2nd was all 4 berth compartments, some mixed, some one sex only, it was maybe 90% full. 1st class was 2 berth compartments, that was close to empty, the entire 6 1/2 day journey only 2 compartments were used, that car was completely soulless as against 3rd and 2nd which were full of life.



A similar observation about Russian trains was made over 100 years ago by the Yiddish writer Sholem Aleichem. (Well, not the part about North Korean guest workers, but the rest of it seems similar to his short story, "Third Class."


----------



## Willbridge

jiml said:


> Seldom would I question the historical accuracy of any of your posts, however Dayniters were a CN invention - predating VIA by several years.
> 
> 
> The 'Dayniter'.....a step above Coach.


I'm glad to be corrected. As the Cold Case reporter for the _Denver Post_ told me, "put something you're not sure of out in the internet and somebody will tell you the answer."

I thought the first time I encountered a Day-Niter was in the CN/VIA transition, but in going through stuff that I'm trying to weed out I found an itinerary from December 1974 that probably was a Day-Niter from Vancouver, BC to Edmonton. The timetable for that trip also shows Train 10 from Prince Rupert extended to Saskatoon to handle Christmas traffic, scheduled thirty minutes ahead of us between Jasper and Edmonton.

I do remember that the car was so quiet that during an over length stop in North Kamloops everyone could hear an elderly couple arguing from the other end of the car.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Which is why unisex restrooms are the default all across the USA.


Not yet but they do exist. I honestly do not understand the motivation for making restrooms gender neutral, and I'm unsure what is being gained by doing so, but it's happening anyway. So into that reality Amtrak would be bringing a _new_ gender exclusive product to the national network with taxpayer money and nobody challenges it? No state attempts to restrict it? No government funding prevents it? I just think the odds are stacked against such a plan and I struggle to envision a method of advertising/discussing it without invalidating it. The moment Amtrak admits or implies it was designed to benefit one group of a protected class at the expense of another the cat is out of the bag.



MARC Rider said:


> As far as I know, no boys attend Girl's High. And the courts seem to be OK with this, even though it means that there are more opportunities available for girls in Philadelphia to attend a college-prep high school than there are for boys.


The courts aren't usually looking for controversies to rule upon and case law generally depends on someone with standing challenging the status quo. Gender specific flophouses were "legal" in part because nobody cared to challenge them. It's just not realistic that this wouldn't be challenged with government funding on the national stage.


----------



## Mailliw

Unisex restrooms are almost always single-user; there's no reason for them to be segregated by sex in the first place. I've never seen a multi-user restroom on a train, bus, or plane. As far as Nightjet's sleeping pods; you can just sacrifice 4 of them for an ADA bedroom. The lack of a daytime mode is the biggest drawback I see. Would Amtrak or VIA want cars that could _only_ be used at night in their fleet instead of something they could use on long distance trains as well?


----------



## jiml

Willbridge said:


> I'm glad to be corrected. As the Cold Case reporter for the _Denver Post_ told me, "put something you're not sure of out in the internet and somebody will tell you the answer."
> 
> I thought the first time I encountered a Day-Niter was in the CN/VIA transition, but in going through stuff that I'm trying to weed out I found an itinerary from December 1974 that probably was a Day-Niter from Vancouver, BC to Edmonton. The timetable for that trip also shows Train 10 from Prince Rupert extended to Saskatoon to handle Christmas traffic, scheduled thirty minutes ahead of us between Jasper and Edmonton.
> 
> I do remember that the car was so quiet that during an over length stop in North Kamloops everyone could hear an elderly couple arguing from the other end of the car.


The Dayniters were very reminiscent of airline business class not all that long ago - before "lay flat" became a thing. They were also featured on the much-missed overnight train between Montreal and Toronto when one's employer wouldn't pony up for a sleeper. Not that I'd know of course.


----------



## Bob Dylan

NS VIA Fan said:


> Unlike my trips in Europe (granted I was a lot younger) where a Couchette shared with others was just fine......here in North America the culture seems to be that if you can afford it you want private accommodations. Nothing between that and a coach seat will do.
> 
> One exception here I know of were the 'Dormitory Sleepers' on Marine Atlantic's overnight ferries between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. A couple of large open spaces with rows of bunks (236 in total).....and they were very popular. Cost was $15 more than coach fare. They gave you a pillow and blanket but most just used a sleeping bag. There were no curtains on the bunks, no segregation: men, women, families all slept together in one big room! People just wanted a place to put their head down for the 6 hour overnight crossing as they faced a 950 km drive across the island the next day. Private cabins as well as regular coach seating were also offered.
> 
> View attachment 20436
> 
> View attachment 20437
> 
> 
> During the day crossings the Dorm Sleepers pretty well went unoccupied so it was a lot of dead weight (and fuel burn) to be hauling around. Today....the new ferries offer airline-style business class seating (not quite lie-flat) that are used during the day as well as private cabins.


I rode a similar Ferry from Puerto Vallarta to Cabo San Lucas in the early 80s that was Government operated ( just like the Rail Roads), it had real similar accommodations and it was dirt cheap, if I remember right a First Class Private Cabin (Walk on, more for a Vehicle)was 100 Pesos for 2 ( $25).

Shared dorm bunks like your picture were $8 and a Bus Style Seat 2nd Class ( Recliner) on the Main Deck was $4!!!

Once Privatization became all the Rage in Mexico, both were Sold off and became Expensive, then quickly Extint!


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> The Dayniters were very reminiscent of airline business class not all that long ago - before "lay flat" became a thing. They were also featured on the much-missed overnight train between Montreal and Toronto when one's employer wouldn't pony up for a sleeper. Not that I'd know of course.


I rode that overnight Train from Montreal- Toronto in a Sleeper in 2004, it arrived into Union Station @ 8am with a Cross Platform Transfer to the Canadian.

Still have the amenities Bag that's branded as "Constellation Service!"


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## v v

Devil's Advocate said:


> In my travels anytime there are two or more Russians within shouting distance everyone in the vicinity knows about it.



Maybe the difference between what you saw and I saw was people sometimes behave differently in public in their home country than they do abroad?


----------



## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> I rode that overnight Train from Montreal- Toronto in a Sleeper in 2004, it arrived into Union Station @ 8am with a Cross Platform Transfer to the Canadian.
> 
> Still have the amenities Bag that's branded as "Constellation Service!"


That would have been during the brief resurgence of Trains 50 and 51 with the Renaissance sleepers now allocated to the suspended Ocean. Another difference between it and previous "lives" was the lack of split-off cars to/from Ottawa. The service was very reminiscent of Amtrak's Executive Sleeper, which has been recently discussed, and was perfect for business travellers wanting to avoid overpriced hotel rooms in either end city. That said, while the coach fares were cheap the sleepers tended to be noncompetitive and the service was discontinued in the fall of 2005.


----------



## Exvalley

I am late to the thread, and I just skimmed the discussion about separate facilities for men and women - so pardon me if I am misunderstanding the conversation. That said, there is absolutely no legal impediment to having separate couchette compartments for men and women. I could write a treatise as to why, but the plethora of existing gender-divided spaces ought to tell you enough. (bathrooms, hostel dormitories, locker rooms, changing rooms, etc.) If these were illegal, a lawyer would have figured that out by now.

While I don't think that couchettes have a future in the United States, I agree that the Via Rail style of open sleeper may have a chance. This is because you can draw a curtain across your bunk and have privacy that is lacking in a couchette. I could see something like this working on the right route, such as Los Angeles to San Francisco. Or perhaps Seattle-Portland-San Francisco. I'm not sure how viable it would be on most routes, however. Another option is a capsule train, like they have in Japan.


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> The Dayniters were very reminiscent of airline business class not all that long ago - before "lay flat" became a thing........




The Dayniters were a real step-up for CN coach passengers. Prior to that, even on the transcontinental trains a coach seat was just that. They did recline but there were no leg rests.

But over on CP the Budd Stainless Steel Coaches bought in 1955 did have full length leg and foot rests.....nearly 20 years before CN offered a similar accommodation with the Dayniters

VIA ran the Dayniters in the Corridor as 'Club 52' (they had 52 seats!) It was a class between regular coach and the First Class Clubs with 2+1 seating.

Below is Coach Seating on CP's Canadian in 1955:


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> That would have been during the brief resurgence of Trains 50 and 51 with the Renaissance sleepers now allocated to the suspended Ocean. Another difference between it and previous "lives" was the lack of split-off cars to/from Ottawa. The service was very reminiscent of Amtrak's Executive Sleeper, which has been recently discussed, and was perfect for business travellers wanting to avoid overpriced hotel rooms in either end city. That said, while the coach fares were cheap the sleepers tended to be noncompetitive and the service was discontinued in the fall of 2005.



It was 21 years ago last week (Jan 2000) that VIA launched the new 'Enterprise' (#50/#51) to give overnight trains between Montreal and Toronto another try 10 years after the 'Cavalier' had been discontinued in what seemed a perfect market for an overnight train: large cities 340 miles apart.

The 'Enterprise' was one train VIA did give a good try. It was extensively advertised but there just didn't seem to be a market for overnight train travel anymore in the corridor. With fast day trains each-way....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper. It lasted about 5 years.

I received discount coupons while travelling in VIA-1 (daytime first class) for a sleeper one-way and return by fast afternoon train but it just didn’t work. The only times the trains were full was on Fri and Sun evenings and this was in coach. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers, but not many.

When launched in 2000......the 'Enterprise' ran with the Budd Stainless Steel equipment including Chateau Sleepers and a Park Car......and marketed as 'Constellation Class' including a complementary continental breakfast served in the Bullet Lounge. I always met one or two other railfans up in the dome also enjoying the nostalgia of overnight train travel......but for other passengers....there weren't many!

In July 2002 the 'Enterprise' was the first train to be re-equipped with new 'Renaissance' cars. I had a ride from Montreal to Toronto the first week the Rens were in service. The Park was gone....but a breakfast tray was served in your room.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA ran the Dayniters in the Corridor as 'Club 52' (they had 52 seats!) It was a class between regular coach and the First Class Clubs with 2+1 seating.


As a regular business traveller between Toronto and Montreal "back in the day" when the Turbos were entering their "unreliable" phase, I would always dread turning up at Gare Centrale to find a conventional consist had been substituted. It would always include a Club 52 coach instead of a "Club-Galley", which also meant a cold meal was coming. The seats were fine and actually more comfortable than the vinyl-covered versions on the Club-Galleys, but nothing beat Turboclub.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> In July 2002 the 'Enterprise' was the first train to be re-equipped with new 'Renaissance' cars. I had a ride from Montreal to Toronto the first week the Rens were in service. The Park was gone....but a breakfast tray was served in your room.
> 
> View attachment 20454
> 
> View attachment 20455
> View attachment 20456
> View attachment 20457
> View attachment 20458


I just shake my head when I see those pictures and think that the newest cars in the VIA fleet (which they spent big bucks renovating) are likely to be the first retired. They look nice, ride well and the coach/business seats are relatively comfortable - since we're talking about seats.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> I just shake my head when I see those pictures and think that the newest cars in the VIA fleet (which they spent big bucks renovating) are likely to be the first retired........



VIA's plan is to continue to use the Ren Sleepers on the 'Hybrid' Ocean (when it returns) as they have the Accessible Bedrooms (similar to ADA requirements in the States) that the Budd equipment does not have. I believe they also plan to use the Ren Diners and Service Cars but not the Ren Coaches. VIA is now receiving the newly renovated Budd Coaches that now have accessible accommodations and the seats are reversible. The Ren seats are not......a requirement now that the equipment can no longer be turned in Halifax.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> I believe they also plan to use the Ren Diners and Service Cars but not the Ren Coaches. VIA is now receiving the newly renovated Budd Coaches that now have accessible accommodations and the seats are reversible. The Ren seats are not......a requirement now that the equipment can no longer be turned in Halifax.


I'm a little surprised about the first item, since there had been talk of Budd diners coming back. (I quite like the Ren dining set-up.) I had forgotten the coaches had the "Euro-style" seating, so they no longer make sense on the Ocean. The Ren coaches would now be fine for corridor services where none of the seats are reversed anymore.

Sidebar Ocean question: Have you heard what's happening with domes - Skyline or Park? Park cars aren't exactly conducive to backwards running either and I can't remember if Skyline seats can be flipped. My guess is not. There's not a lot of other lounge options in the fleet though.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> Sidebar Ocean question: Have you heard what's happening with domes - Skyline or Park? Park cars aren't exactly conducive to backwards running either and I can't remember if Skyline seats can be flipped. My guess is not. There's not a lot of other lounge options in the fleet though.



I haven't heard anything definitively on a Dome. Probably not a Park......but a Skyline would be possible. Install seats with flip-over backs like the Skyline had on the Atlantic Ltd back in the '70s. It was not turned in Saint John.


----------



## Mailliw

So what is VIA actually doing with the Renaissance coaches? Wouldn't they have as much wear & tear as the sleepers and diners? Are they being rebuilt or just decommissioned?


----------



## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> This is because you can draw a curtain across your bunk and have privacy that is lacking in a couchette.


The couchette-style sleeper I rode in Japan had a curtain you could draw across the bunk. As I recall, the sleeper had the bunks arranged like a couchette, but were in open sections, so you weren't locked into a compartment. There was plenty of privacy with the curtains, but, of course, it was only curtains, so someone could still enter your space if they so desired.

One thing to keep in mind is that with these style of sleeping accommodations, one sleeps in their clothes, only taking off their shoes.


----------



## jiml

Open sections are not that different from coach in that the risk of unwanted "attention" is greatly reduced by the possibility of people passing by - the same way there's a good chance that someone will be awake in coach overnight. Euro couchettes have a closing (and locking) door. I think that sums it all up.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Mailliw said:


> Unisex restrooms are almost always single-user; there's no reason for them to be segregated by sex in the first place. I've never seen a multi-user restroom on a train, bus, or plane. As far as Nightjet's sleeping pods; you can just sacrifice 4 of them for an ADA bedroom. The lack of a daytime mode is the biggest drawback I see. Would Amtrak or VIA want cars that could _only_ be used at night in their fleet instead of something they could use on long distance trains as well?



The multi-user restroom on train can only be found older equipment now. Men’s room in back, a couple of stalls, a open area with two sinks. The women room had a lounge/power room with two stalls. A very early president of Amtrak stated that the restrooms were a massive waste of space. So Amtrak became a unisex bathroom place. Well on the trains at least.


----------



## PaTrainFan

NS VIA Fan said:


> Yup....my fist encounter with a DayNiter was in April 1974 when CN dropped the Sydney-Montreal Sleeper and replaced it with a DayNiter.
> 
> (You'll note in my post above with the ferry diagram that DayNiters were also offered. These were the same seats as found on CN trains. (Marine Atlantic's roots are in CN Marine)
> 
> View attachment 20438
> 
> 
> View attachment 20439
> View attachment 20440
> View attachment 20441


This is what Amtrak's Business Class should look like (updated, of course) on long distance trains. For the "budget conscious" overnight passenger, or at least marketed as such. Admittedly I haven't experienced overnight Business Class but the Dayniter concept seems to be an upgrade over coach.


----------



## jis

The only time I ever rode in a Renn Coach was while traveling from Montreal to Quebec City and back.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jis said:


> The only time I ever rode in a Renn Coach was while traveling from Montreal to Quebec City and back.



I travelled overnight in a Renaissance Coach once on the Ocean when the sleepers were sold out. I really liked the option of having a single seat in the 2+1 layout and found the seats just fine. Instead of the usual reclining seat where the seatback encroached into your neighbor's space behind.....the Ren seat slides forward and unlike a 'Dayniter' there is no leg rest but there is a footrest.



https://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/9/98/VIA_Rail_Canada_Renaissance_Coach_interior-a.jpg


----------



## jis

NS VIA Fan said:


> I travelled overnight in a Renaissance Coach once on the Ocean when the sleepers were sold out. I really liked the option of having a single seat in the 2+1 layout and found the seats just fine. Instead of the usual reclining seat where the seatback encroached into your neighbor's space behind.....the Ren seat slides forward and unlike a 'Dayniter' there is no leg rest but there is a footrest.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/9/98/VIA_Rail_Canada_Renaissance_Coach_interior-a.jpg


Yes. I liked the seats. On both journeys I had a seat on the "1" side of the 2+1. As I seem to recall the seats are on a somewhat raised platform from the aisle height.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jis said:


> Yes. I liked the seats. On both journeys I had a seat on the "1" side of the 2+1. As I seem to recall the seats are on a somewhat raised platform from the aisle height.



Yes......the coaches have the raised platform which allows you to slide luggage in under the seat from the front. Its closed at the back so better security for your belongings.


----------



## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> I travelled overnight in a Renaissance Coach once on the Ocean when the sleepers were sold out. I really liked the option of having a single seat in the 2+1 layout and found the seats just fine. Instead of the usual reclining seat where the seatback encroached into your neighbor's space behind.....the Ren seat slides forward and unlike a 'Dayniter' there is no leg rest but there is a footrest.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/9/98/VIA_Rail_Canada_Renaissance_Coach_interior-a.jpg


I haven't ridden in those seats, but I am trying to imagine doing so...
While the "recline" mechanism doesn't infringe on those behind you, it would seem to me that it would limit you extending your legs forward. It would certainly bring your knees closer to the seat in front of you...
I guess I will just have to try them to really know....


----------



## jis

Europe seems to have almost universally gone for the base slide forward recline on their trains. Of course an extreme case of it are the lie flat seats in the airline business and first classes.

Actually how much you can recline a seat depends inherently on the available seat pitch. The budget airline seat pitch is really not sufficient to allow any recline at all, even though they may pretend to provide a 1" recline


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## jiml

railiner said:


> I haven't ridden in those seats, but I am trying to imagine doing so...
> While the "recline" mechanism doesn't infringe on those behind you, it would seem to me that it would limit you extending your legs forward. It would certainly bring your knees closer to the seat in front of you...
> I guess I will just have to try them to really know....


They're a lot like the newest coach airline seats on AA and others.


----------



## Ziv

"If you build it, they will come."
James Earl Jones channeling Ray Kinsella with regards to Mailliw's thoughts on sleeper trains.

Ok, I mangled the quote, but it sounded good if you didn't know the original. 
Seriously, though, just about any inexpensive sleeper option would probably go over fairly well, whether it is an intermediate Lay Flat at an Angle or a modernized Slumbercoach.



Mailliw said:


> Well, Americans are OK with communal sleeping arrangements in seated coaches, bus, and airplanes. I think there are enough Americans, particularly Gens Y & Z, who'd go for sleeping in a curtained bunk or pod. At least on 1 night trips. It'd basically be the same as a hostel or capsule hotel. Just ensure the upper berths have windows, everyone has outlets galore, and the fares are cheap. Allowing for the ADA bedroom you could fit about 32 berths in an open section arrangement for an overall capacity of 34 passengers.


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> They're a lot like the newest coach airline seats on AA and others.


If that's all the degree of reclining angle they offer, they would be of limited use to me, in getting a good sleep...


----------



## Mailliw

Meanwhile in France.


----------



## Willbridge

Perhaps reported elsewhere but SNCF has announced an innovation! They are planning to introduce an overnight Paris<>Nice train on the route of the former _Le Train Blue_.

Here's the news link.

IRL bulletin - SNCF to run overnight

Here's a cleaned up Google translate of the video showing the two sections that ran the last night in December 2017.

The start of 2018 was fatal to many things.

The biggest change is of course the disappearance of the mythical night train which linked Paris Austerlitz to Nice. (ex _Blue Train_).

It all started in 1883 when the train was launched by the CIWL (Wagon-Lits) and linked Calais to Rome and then Ventimiglia the following year, it was also called "_Calais Mediterranean Express"_. In 1922, it took the name "_Blue Train_" like the sleeping cars that made up this train. In the 1960s, the train was now limited to the Paris / Ventimiglia route, a route that lasted until the 2000s.

Subsequently, the train loses the name "Train Bleu" and takes the classic name of all French night trains, "_Corail Lunéa_" then "_Lunéa_" thereafter.

In the following years, the train is limited to Nice. it is also twinned with Lunéa "_Val de Durance_" Paris / Briançon. From 2008, T2 sleeping cars are withdrawn from service, there are only couchette cars left. Then, the Lunéa trains, become "_Intercités de Nuit_". Since summer 2016, RZD (Russian) couchette cars have been put on the train to improve 1st class service.

In this video you will see the last "Blue Train" 5773 Paris / Nice and the penultimate 5776 Nice / Paris on the night of December 8 to 9, 2017.

The SNCF wants to eventually eliminate all these night trains, supposedly unprofitable .. and prefers to put night TGVs like Paris / Bourg St Maurice this winter .. but why not maintain the links to the beaches in summer and the connections to the Alps in winter? Let's take advantage of our night trains, before it's too late!

"Last" run of the Paris>Riviera night train.


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## caravanman

Mailliw said:


> Meanwhile in France.


Interesting to read that Russian sleeper coaches are now seen as better than existing French stock: "Comfortable ​*sleeper coaches might be rented​* from the Austrians or the Russians, in order to offer a comfort level in line with the new modern European standards..." I always have a romanticised image of old Russian trains, with wisps of steam rising and fierce attendants! (I was also disappointed to find Americans don't all drive around these days in pink Cadillacs…)  ​


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## Willbridge

caravanman said:


> Interesting to read that Russian sleeper coaches are now seen as better than existing French stock: "Comfortable *sleeper coaches might be rented *from the Austrians or the Russians, in order to offer a comfort level in line with the new modern European standards..." I always have a romanticised image of old Russian trains, with wisps of steam rising and fierce attendants! (I was also disappointed to find Americans don't all drive around these days in pink Cadillacs…)



In the middle of this brief video - set up at a perfect spot...

RZD leased cars on Le Train Bleu

The provodnik failed to conform to the old stereotype.


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## Seaboard92

I'm surprised to see that RZD was leasing out rolling stock to SNCF but it does go to prove my point. They have some of the best and most modern sleepers in the European market. That and they are happy to do just about anything for a client.


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## Mailliw

It's no surprise there; night trains never went out of fashion in Russia. Presumably the French would be leasing kupe cars like the Siemens ones on the Paris to Moscow line. They look really nice and versatile.


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## Willbridge

Mailliw said:


> It's no surprise there; night trains never went out of fashion in Russia. Presumably the French would be leasing kupe cars like the Siemens ones on the Paris to Moscow line. They look really nice and versatile.


The French commentary referred to 1st Class in couchette format. In 1971 I was assigned to a 1st class couchette on the Train Militaire from Berlin to Strasburg and it was the same layout as a Russian coupe - 4 berths.


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## Seaboard92

Mailliw said:


> It's no surprise there; night trains never went out of fashion in Russia. Presumably the French would be leasing kupe cars like the Siemens ones on the Paris to Moscow line. They look really nice and versatile.



The most competitive sleeping car market in the world is Moscow-Saint Petersburg. Russian Railways operates at least six trains per day including the flagship the Red Arrow, Grand Express RU operates one train, and Tver Express fields one train. That is an insane amount of competition for a market where the fastest day train can accomplish the route is 3:30. Not to mention the 36 daily flights between the two cities. 

I would assume the cars Siemens built will eventually get bumped to secondary status in a few years because in order to be a premium train you have to upgrade your rolling stock every 10 years. Unlike Amtrak which will run the wheels off a car for 40-50 years on premium services the Russians downgrade 10 year old cars then run the wheels off of them for 40-50 years while replacing the premium trains with new equipment.


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## Willbridge

Nightjet's new sleeper exhibited. Photos of private room mock-ups included.

700 car order projected

_“The decision made in 2016 to enter the European night train business and steadily expand the night train network was absolutely right,” says Mr Andreas Matthä, CEO of ÖBB. “We are already the largest provider of night train services in Europe and our investment in new and ultra-modern trains will ensure that we can continue building on our pioneering role.” _Take that, big brother DB!


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## Just-Thinking-51

> Each seven-car set consists of two seating coaches, three couchette cars, and two sleeping cars.



13 NightJet sets consist of the above 7 cars.


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## Mailliw

Have any floorplans of the new Nightjets been released yet? I'm curious what the capacities are, especially of the new couchette cars. Also wondering what the difference between the standard and deluxe sleeping compartments is since apparently they both have ensuites.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Nothing yet, individual rooms are design level picture, art work type stuff. I know the model railroad companies are try to release at the same timeframe. However no floor plans yet.


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## caravanman

Just stumbled upon this "Start Up" Sleeper train service from the Netherlands. Due to start in a years time: European Sleeper English - railway company dedicated to night trains


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## Exvalley

I will believe it when I see it, but I really like the idea of an overnight train from Amsterdam to Prague. Amsterdam needs more overnight service, so this is encouraging to see.


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## caravanman

Exvalley said:


> I will believe it when I see it, but I really like the idea of an overnight train from Amsterdam to Prague. Amsterdam needs more overnight service, so this is encouraging to see.


It does sound a bit like an amateur enthusiasts project, but fingers crossed for it.
I enjoyed a nice overnight sleeper ride from Amsterdam to Copenhagen a few years ago, nice journey, then to Koln overnight from Copenhagen, and then on to.... Those were the days when one did not need a hotel overnight at all!


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## Willbridge

caravanman said:


> Just stumbled upon this "Start Up" Sleeper train service from the Netherlands. Due to start in a years time: European Sleeper English - railway company dedicated to night trains


There are two start-ups described in the _IRJ _coverage of it. One of them specifically does not have all of their financing set up. Of course, airlines start up and run without proper financing for years.

More night trains


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## Willbridge

Willbridge said:


> There are two start-ups described in the _IRJ _coverage of it. One of them specifically does not have all of their financing set up. Of course, airlines start up and run without proper financing for years.
> 
> More night trains



Here's more info in English.

More on 2022 start-ups


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## Just-Thinking-51

A lot of spare equipment available in Europe. With NightJet buying new, there old stuff is hitting the market.









HEROS – the Specialist in Used Railway Rolling Stock


HEROS Helvetic Rolling Stock GmbH - Your specialist for railway rolling stock - Sale and Leasing




heros-rail.com









__





RDC Asset GmbH | rdc-deutschland







www.rdc-deutschland.de





Does not take much effort, just time and money to start a night train. It’s a niche market with some serious issues, but you too can be a PTOC Passenger Train Operation Company.


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## Seaboard92

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> A lot of spare equipment available in Europe. With NightJet buying new, there old stuff is hitting the market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HEROS – the Specialist in Used Railway Rolling Stock
> 
> 
> HEROS Helvetic Rolling Stock GmbH - Your specialist for railway rolling stock - Sale and Leasing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> heros-rail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does not take much effort, just time and money to start a night train. It’s a niche market with some serious issues, but you too can be a PTOC Passenger Train Operation Company.




Maybe everyone here can contribute a thousand dollars and we can create our own night train


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## Just-Thinking-51

I am in, but my last rail venture “Locomore” did not turn out too good. Sure I have a nice coffee mug, and a model passenger car, and yes the service is still present in a form, but a complete lost of investment did occur. Just like the funds I will commit to these guys, pretty sure I will never see any return.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Seat 61 news has more to read about these developments.






The Man in Seat 61: What's new on the site


News page on the Man in Seat 61 website



www.seat61.com







> *You wait years for a Brussels-Berlin sleeper then 3 turn up at once...*


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## Just-Thinking-51

So European Sleeper is now try to raise funds. € 500,000 is the goal. €250 is the minimum amount. The funding drive starts later this month.









European Sleeper - railway company for night trains


The first night train of European Sleeper goes to Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin - Prague. We are the railway company for night trains.




www.europeansleeper.eu





Please noted this is information about a previous posted story. Any funds given should be considered a gift with no return on investment and a complete loss of funds. While these two guys have hitched themself to a establishment operator so they have a higher chance of success, they IMHO also have a high chance of been replaced by said operator or another company. This has happen in Europe a few times with other equipment providers. In this case the host train is already using sleepers on other routes, that they have lease and operator themselves. So it would not be too surprising if/when they cut out the middle (European Sleeper) company. So again if your thinking about send these guys money, please consider it a gift.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Even before the ink is dry.
Seat 61 is reporting:

*Brussels/Amsterdam to Warsaw sleeper?*
It now appears that a Brussels & Amsterdam to Warsaw portion will eventually be added to European Sleeper's Brussels & Amsterdam to Prague sleeper referred to in April's news. This comes from a track access application in Poland.






The Man in Seat 61: What's new on the site


News page on the Man in Seat 61 website



www.seat61.com


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## Mailliw

No floorplan yet, but according to Siemens the new couchette cars have a capacity of 40 passengers. Pretty impressive even w/o a shower. Of course here in the US they'd only be useful on the NER overnight trains.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Mailliw said:


> No floorplan yet, but according to Siemens the new couchette cars have a capacity of 40 passengers. Pretty impressive.



Not really. A pod come in a set of 4, so your talking 10 pods. With bathroom that seems lacking. Wonder if they have pods for wheel chair users? That would take up some room.

The old Pullman duplex single roomettes were a combination of upper and lower private space. I have always though a single level sleeper should start with a “H” bedroom than a couple of duplex single roomettes over the trucks, follow by some bedroom in the middle of the railcar. More duplex single roomettes and a few bathroom modules. This way the high price bedrooms get the nice ride, and the lower cost duplex gets the road noise.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So European Sleeper is now try to raise funds. € 500,000 is the goal. €250 is the minimum amount.



So the European Sleeper IPO occurred this morning, 5 am here in NY. It seem all shares have been reserved, but the system was overwhelming and glitched. I did try to buy some but was unable to make the payment. When I returned my transaction was canceled. So I am not a share holder it seem. Did get a email say there was duplicates and there were getting canceled. So it unknown if they did raise the 500k in minutes or not. But it does show that people are willing to put money into these type of projects. I do wish these folks the best of luck, they might be needed it.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Just a follow up. 

The outfit that is running the show has no way for a person from North American to buy shares of any company they listed. You must have a European Credit Card or a European Bank Account. A lot of share are slowly been reposted as for sale, and our European friends are snagging them up. So European Sleeper will be able to raise 500,000 € by selling 25% of there company shares. That right folks this idea for a night train is worth 2,000,000 € to them.

I do hope they are for real, and not a scam operator.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Update from Europe’s Sleeper Company.



> The interest was so overwhelming that European Sleeper is now considering an accelerated implementation of new routes and purchase of own carriages. It is obvious that travellers in Europe desire to travel by night train and there is broad support for new initiatives.


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## caravanman

No idea if this is a realistic project? When they were tearing up the old tram lines in cities years ago, who would have imagined the billions spent since to recreate tram systems?

Maybe sleeper trains could work better in the near future than in the recent past? 

My gut feeling is that the low cost airlines will be around for a very long time, environmental impact concerns or not?

Midnight Trains... Paris to be new sleeper hub?


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## Just-Thinking-51

caravanman said:


> No idea if this is a realistic project? When they were tearing up the old tram lines in cities years ago, who would have imagined the billions spent since to recreate tram systems?
> 
> Maybe sleeper trains could work better in the near future than in the recent past?
> 
> My gut feeling is that the low cost airlines will be around for a very long time, environmental impact concerns or not?
> 
> Midnight Trains... Paris to be new sleeper hub?



It’s a niche market but for these small wannabe it’s a way to enter the market. Running two trains a day requires much smaller amount of funds, and personal. The routes that this company is showing is also the same routes that the French government is talking about funding. So if you want the government money, this is a way to bid on the contract. Not trying to be Mr. Negative but this outfit might be dependent on getting government money to run trains.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Reports on Twitter of equipment shortage, and mergers of operation companies. Seem our friends in Europe are equally surprised on how fast the traveling public is returning to both rail in general and night trains in peculiar.



> Two night train start-ups European Sleeper and Moonlight Express join forces





https://mobile.twitter.com/sleeping_train


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## Anderson

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So European Sleeper is now try to raise funds. € 500,000 is the goal. €250 is the minimum amount. The funding drive starts later this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European Sleeper - railway company for night trains
> 
> 
> The first night train of European Sleeper goes to Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin - Prague. We are the railway company for night trains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.europeansleeper.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please noted this is information about a previous posted story. Any funds given should be considered a gift with no return on investment and a complete loss of funds. While these two guys have hitched themself to a establishment operator so they have a higher chance of success, they IMHO also have a high chance of been replaced by said operator or another company. This has happen in Europe a few times with other equipment providers. In this case the host train is already using sleepers on other routes, that they have lease and operator themselves. So it would not be too surprising if/when they cut out the middle (European Sleeper) company. So again if your thinking about send these guys money, please consider it a gift.


Apparently they sold out within 15 minutes.

Also, a bit more stuff via Seat 61:





The Man in Seat 61: What's new on the site


News page on the Man in Seat 61 website



www.seat61.com




www.rdc-deutschland.de/rdc-asset-gmbh


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## jis

New network of European sleeper trains announced


A French start-up aims to run ‘hotels on rails’ from Paris to 12 cities across Europe, including Edinburgh, from 2024




www.theguardian.com


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## Mailliw

I found another picture of NNightjet's new sleeping compartments; this one has a bird's eye view.


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