# Train station entrances and escalators



## jmbgeg (Jan 22, 2011)

Just got back from a trip to New York via Amtrak at New York Penn Station. The main Amtrak entrance has no elevators; only escalators. Why? Airports usually have both. I had four bags (suitcase, garment bag, large sack and briefcase); too much to carry on an escalator by far. I used a Red Cap on the way out. On the way in, I stood there beffudled at how I would make it in. There is no Red Cap service waiting upstairs. There was an enterprising individual who noticed my dismay, and offered to help carry my bags for a fee. Gladly accepted. He accompanied me all the way to the baggage check. I tipped him well. The same problem with escalators exists at Chicago Union Station. Not only is this an issue with passengers with lots of bags; I would think it is an ADA issue.


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## the_traveler (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm not sure, but I think there are elevators at NYP off to the side of the main entrance inside Penn Station. Perhaps with the remodeling going on, it is temporarily out of service. I can't speak for CHI.


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## jmbgeg (Jan 22, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> I'm not sure, but I think there are elevators at NYP off to the side of the main entrance inside Penn Station. Perhaps with the remodeling going on, it is temporarily out of service. I can't speak for CHI.


The Red Cap said there are none. He said there are elevators on the other side of the building (not the Amtrak entrance).


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## me_little_me (Jan 22, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> Just got back from a trip to New York via Amtrak at New York Penn Station. The main Amtrak entrance has no elevators; only escalators. Why? Airports usually have both. I had four bags (suitcase, garment bag, large sack and briefcase); too much to carry on an escalator by far. I used a Red Cap on the way out. On the way in, I stood there beffudled at how I would make it in. There is no Red Cap service waiting upstairs. There was an enterprising individual who noticed my dismay, and offered to help carry my bags for a fee. Gladly accepted. He accompanied me all the way to the baggage check. I tipped him well. The same problem with escalators exists at Chicago Union Station. Not only is this an issue with passengers with lots of bags; I would think it is an ADA issue.


There are elevators at Penn Station. Ask when you can't find them. True of any station.

Now if you were in Europe, not only would there be no elevators but the only working escalators (if they exist in a station at all) would be the ones going down. Up escalators are always the broken ones. They plan it that way.


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## battalion51 (Jan 22, 2011)

me_little_me said:


> There are elevators at Penn Station. Ask when you can't find them. True of any station.
> Now if you were in Europe, not only would there be no elevators but the only working escalators (if they exist in a station at all) would be the ones going down. Up escalators are always the broken ones. They plan it that way.


I think that's true in San Francisco too. When I came off of BART last week the only escalators going up to street level were going down. And of course going the other way today they were going up. GAH!


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## jmbgeg (Jan 22, 2011)

me_little_me said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> > Just got back from a trip to New York via Amtrak at New York Penn Station. The main Amtrak entrance has no elevators; only escalators. Why? Airports usually have both. I had four bags (suitcase, garment bag, large sack and briefcase); too much to carry on an escalator by far. I used a Red Cap on the way out. On the way in, I stood there beffudled at how I would make it in. There is no Red Cap service waiting upstairs. There was an enterprising individual who noticed my dismay, and offered to help carry my bags for a fee. Gladly accepted. He accompanied me all the way to the baggage check. I tipped him well. The same problem with escalators exists at Chicago Union Station. Not only is this an issue with passengers with lots of bags; I would think it is an ADA issue.
> ...


I think I acknowledged that there are elavators at NYP. And I did ask if there were any at the Amtrak entrance and an Amtrak employee said no.


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## TransitGeek (Jan 22, 2011)

As far as this as an ADA issue is concerned, the law doesn't require access at every entrance, just access at at least one entrance. If there are elevators on the other end of the station, and a level ADA-compliant path from that end of the station to the gates, the station is fine under ADA. If you're concerned about hauling your bags up escalators, perhaps you should use the other entrance to the station?


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## afigg (Jan 22, 2011)

TransitGeek said:


> As far as this as an ADA issue is concerned, the law doesn't require access at every entrance, just access at at least one entrance. If there are elevators on the other end of the station, and a level ADA-compliant path from that end of the station to the gates, the station is fine under ADA. If you're concerned about hauling your bags up escalators, perhaps you should use the other entrance to the station?


At Penn Station in NYC, it can be confusing and a bit of a hike to find the other entrances. NYP has, what?, at least 5 entrances spread around the 2 city blocks it takes up. There are also entrances to Madison Square Garden located above NYP that complicate finding the best entrances from the outside to the Amtrak, LIRR, and NJ Transit areas. With 2 levels, multiple internal corridors, multiple access corridors to 2 subway lines, and over 400,000 people getting on/off Amtrak, LIRR, NJ Transit trains on a normal weekday, NYP may be in a class of complexity all by itself in the US as far as train stations are concerned. When I started taking Amtrak to NYP on a semi-regular basis a year and a half ago, it took me multiple trips through the place just to get a handle on where I was when I emerged from track level and the best ways to the Amtrak and LIRR areas.

NYP could use better ADA access at the Amtrak entrances at the 8th Ave end and inside the building to get between the 2 levels. A layout diagram of NYP that I have has wheelchair access symbols at the LIRR and NJ Transit on the east end of the building off of 7th Avenue, so they exist. Amtrak probably never had the funding and clear mandate to figure out how to squeeze in elevators at the 8th Avenue entrances. The public bathrooms in the Amtrak level waiting area were closed for renovations in November and December. Don't know if the work is done yet, but the renovations were funded by stimulus money to make the bathrooms ADA compliant, so at least those are being improved. Got to figure the planned Moynihan station upgrade would include major improvements with ADA and elevator access for the NYP station complex.


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## jmbgeg (Jan 22, 2011)

afigg said:


> TransitGeek said:
> 
> 
> > As far as this as an ADA issue is concerned, the law doesn't require access at every entrance, just access at at least one entrance. If there are elevators on the other end of the station, and a level ADA-compliant path from that end of the station to the gates, the station is fine under ADA. If you're concerned about hauling your bags up escalators, perhaps you should use the other entrance to the station?
> ...


Good reply. Better than the "deal with it {so to speak]" post. Given the cost of coast to coast sleeper tickets (in cash or miles), a little more convenience would be nice. At a minimum, some signage as to where where elevators could be found would be appropriate.


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## FunNut (Jan 22, 2011)

afigg said:


> TransitGeek said:
> 
> 
> > As far as this as an ADA issue is concerned, the law doesn't require access at every entrance, just access at at least one entrance. If there are elevators on the other end of the station, and a level ADA-compliant path from that end of the station to the gates, the station is fine under ADA. If you're concerned about hauling your bags up escalators, perhaps you should use the other entrance to the station?
> ...


This is extremely helpful, as I'll be traveling on the NER on Tuesday. I'll look for a station map to help me with my "luggage problem" getting into Penn Station. It boggles the mind that there's no RedCap desk at the accessible entrance(s). There is no way on earth I can get into the station if I have to carry the bags on an escalator or stairs. Thanks so much for the heads up.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jan 22, 2011)

I find it pretty simple to navigate NYP. Its a small station.


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## AlanB (Jan 22, 2011)

Amtrak does have an elevator to street level, but it's not on the 8th Avenue side of MSG. You have to walk about halfway down either 31st Street or 33rd Street. There you'll find a now closed off, to cars for safety reasons, street that runs between 31st & 33rd. At one time taxis were allowed to use this street, but that was many moons ago.

In any event the Amtrak elevator is located halfway down that street. Pedestrians are allowed down the street, it's only closed to cars & taxis now. This elevator brings you down behind the seating areas. As you exit the elevator you'll see the information booth ahead of you, the rear of the general waiting/seating area and the special Acela BC waiting area. You'll need to walk around those seating areas to reach the ticket windows and the main solari board. There is a smaller solari board on the back of the seating areas, as well as 8 to 10 Quik-Trak machines.

And of course there are the aforementioned elevators for NJT & the LIRR. The LIRR has an elevator on it's 34th Street entrance and NJT has one for it's 7th Avenue concourse.


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## oldtimer (Jan 23, 2011)

In Chicago Union Station the east side Canal Street entrance has an elevator on either side of the entrance door. The entrance from Jackson Street (near the river) has access to an elevator at the south end of the food court. The entrances on canal street lead in the great hall and are handicap accessible also.

Hope this helps.


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## caravanman (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi,

I am not sure whether "me-little-me" is attempting a shot at levity (pun intended..) but there are elevators and escalators in European stations.. (we call an elevator a lift.)

Berlin Hauptbahnhof.. not a working escalator in sight?

Also good to know that New York Penn is just a small station, according to Shawn Ryu.

Top quality info, guys!

Ed


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## Jean (Jan 23, 2011)

In October 2009 we were dropped off by a cab at NYP, travelling by Amtrak to Boston. The driver pointed out the elevator, about 1 minute walk from the drop-off. We only had one bag each, but it was useful. Sounds like the one AlanB describes. We also arrived into NYP and found it relatively easy to negotiate both times, even coming from semi-rural Australia (but have travelled a lot.) It is surprising that access is so limited, one elevator is not nearly enough for such a large station.

Jean


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## jis (Jan 23, 2011)

Actually when the OP used the term _Amtrak Entrance_ to Penn Station, I was left scratching my head wondering which entrance was meant to be _the_ Amtrak Entrance. After much to and fro in this thread now I finally understand.

Bottom line is, historically people with luggage were believed to be the ones that will arrive by taxi, and the elevator was built by what then was the taxi drop off. And that is as much an Amtrak entrance as any other, since it goes straight into the big rotunda. Taxis are not allowed to go there anymore, but knowledgeable taxi drivers know where the elevator is and they drop people off with luggage on 31st or 33rd street near the elevator. The OP was unfortunate in having arrived either not by a taxi or by one that was not particularly knowledgeably or helpful.

Bottom line number two... it is always a good idea to research where one is a going a bit and also to ask people around.


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## AlanB (Jan 23, 2011)

Jean said:


> It is surprising that access is so limited, one elevator is not nearly enough for such a large station.


There are at least 3 or 4 elevators between the street and the various station levels. Only one of those however directly serves the Amtrak area. However, since Amtrak sees the least amount of traffic of the RR's using Penn Station and most people do use the escalators, that one elevator is more than enough. If anything based upon passenger volumes it would be New Jersey Transit and the Long Island RR that need more elevators than they have. But even there, most commuters aren't dragging lots of luggage so the elevators tend to see only those with special mobility needs anyhow, and therefore the number is probably close to adequate.


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## afigg (Jan 23, 2011)

Jean said:


> In October 2009 we were dropped off by a cab at NYP, travelling by Amtrak to Boston. The driver pointed out the elevator, about 1 minute walk from the drop-off. We only had one bag each, but it was useful. Sounds like the one AlanB describes. We also arrived into NYP and found it relatively easy to negotiate both times, even coming from semi-rural Australia (but have travelled a lot.) It is surprising that access is so limited, one elevator is not nearly enough for such a large station.
> 
> Jean


There are 3 entrances on the east end, near or on 7th Avenue, that are all marked on my NYP diagram for wheelchair access. Which means they either have elevators or ramps. It is the 2 pedestrian entrances on the west end at 8th Ave that lead directly into the Amtrak ticket and waiting area that only have stairs and escalators. I will be going through NYP this week; I will have to check those entrances and see if the problem is that there is no easy place to put in elevators. Amtrak has been getting funding in recent years to bring all their stations up to ADA compliance. Adding elevators at the 8th Ave entrances may be in the long term plans, but the Moynihan station plans may take priority.

If the cab driver dropped you off near the entrance leading to the rotunda area on the upper level, then finding Amtrak was pretty easy from there. If you get off a train and take the stairs to the lower level, ending up in the NJ Transit or LIRR areas, then it can be a bit bewildering for 1st timers to find their way to the Amtrak area. There are signs pointing the way, it is just that there are many, many signs tucked under the ceiling beams and on the walls to different destinations - 123 and ACE subway entrances, NJ and LIRR areas, street exits, track numbers, and Amtrak - with stores lining the concourses that one has to sort through. I find NYP an interesting place to travel through, even if it is only a shell of it once was.


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## anon (Jan 23, 2011)

Does anyone know if the Moynihan Station project will add more elevators to the whole place?


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## jis (Jan 23, 2011)

Actually even the two subway stations serving Penn Station are both ADA compliant and there are elevators to get to the right level to get into Penn Station, and then use elevators in Penn Station to get to the other levels. So if one counts the street level to subway elevators at those two stations then there are a few additional elevators to get to Penn Station.

I think what is lacking is a more detailed diagram of Penn Station showing the location of all elevators, both from street level to the station and also elevators that connect the two levels and those that go down to the platforms.


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## Shanghai (Jan 23, 2011)

There has been a construction trailer parked very near the elevator at NYP and it may have blocked

view of the elevator. Even without the trailer, it is not easy to find the lift if you are not famalier with station layout.


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## afigg (Jan 23, 2011)

anon said:


> Does anyone know if the Moynihan Station project will add more elevators to the whole place?


Only Phase 1 of the Moynihan station project has been funded. Which is not scheduled to be completed until 2016 because quoting from the recent press release" "Construction of Phase One, which includes new entrances to Penn Station through the Farley building, a wider and longer West End Concourse, more escalators from the platforms and other infrastructure work, started this month and will be completed by 2016. The project is scheduled to take 6 years because work is restricted to nights and weekends." This is a very long term project.

I was curious exactly what gets done under Phase 1 vs 2 and found this summary plan documents at http://www.empire.state.ny.us/Subsidiaries_Projects/MSDC/MSDCGPP.html. Pages 6 & 7 of the Final Phase I plan of June 2010 has a summary of the Phase 1 changes. Phase 2 would include using the Mail platform 12 for passengers, and if/when that happens, I can see railfans buying tickets for the first revenue trains to operate from that platform.


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## jis (Jan 23, 2011)

afigg said:


> Phase 2 would include using the Mail platform 12 for passengers, and if/when that happens, I can see railfans buying tickets for the first revenue trains to operate from that platform.


If they can get the Empire Corridor trains to become push-pull using maybe a few AEM-7's converted to cab cars, then having them use those platforms would remove at least one set of conflicts between Empire Corridor and NJT.


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## FunNut (Jan 23, 2011)

This has developed into an interesting thread, for people using Penn Station. I went over there today on a "scouting mission." What I found, in my 30 minutes or so in the station, is as follows.

I first went to an entrance on the corner of 31st St. and 7th Avenue. I believe the entrance is marked LIRR on the outside. This entrance does have an elevator down to the main ticketing level of the station, BUT it only operates with a key! There is a sign that says "For RedCap Service call 212-630-6401 or 212-630-7206. So I assume you enter there, make the call, then WAIT for a RedCap to come. This entrance is a very very long way from the Amtrak area of the station and I have a feeling waiting for a RedCap could take a long time.

I walked (and walked and walked) following the signs to Amtrak. I finally found the self-ticketing machines and an information booth. I asked about accessible entrances and getting a RedCap at an entrance. The three employees looked at me like I was speaking Martian. They were totally clueless. I saw a sign for RedCap Service, so strolled over to that booth. There was one uniformed guy standing there and I asked him how to get help on the day I travel. I described the entrance on 31st and 7th, he shook his head and pointed to an entrance on 33rd and 8th and said if I entered there I would find a little booth with a button that would call a RedCap. Well, skeptic that I am, I thanked him and went to that entrance to see. There were up and down escalators, a stairway, a couple of cops at the top, and absolutely no way to summon a RedCap. No sign (like the other entrance) with a number to phone, either.

After all this evolution I was pretty worn out (I'd been walking around all day), so I didn't circumnavigate the station. If I had, I might have discovered the "little former street" mentioned in some of the posts above. I didn't see those posts as they were made after I left my hotel today. So I guess tomorrow I might make another foray over there, if I'm in the neighborhood. And, yes, I have googled for a map and cannot find one. Really, does Amtrak have to make it so hard?


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## jis (Jan 23, 2011)

FunNut said:


> After all this evolution I was pretty worn out (I'd been walking around all day), so I didn't circumnavigate the station. If I had, I might have discovered the "little former street" mentioned in some of the posts above. I didn't see those posts as they were made after I left my hotel today. So I guess tomorrow I might make another foray over there, if I'm in the neighborhood. And, yes, I have googled for a map and cannot find one. Really, does Amtrak have to make it so hard?


Since you were inside the station at the Amtrak departure level all that you had to do was go to the rotunda where the Amtrak information kiosk is and just go up the stairs/escalator there and the doors that you come to is the entrance in question on the blocked street. The elevator is right there.

Here is a diagram of Penn Station. The blocked street is the one that goes between Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza. The diagram does not show the old taxi entrance which is right in the middle of that road going into what is marked as Madison Square Garden, and there is an elevator and stairs down to the Amtrak level in the rotunda from there. The elevator is unfortunately not shown in this diagram. Incidentally, this is not Amtrak's diagram, it is one done by Jason Gibbs.


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## AlanB (Jan 24, 2011)

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > Phase 2 would include using the Mail platform 12 for passengers, and if/when that happens, I can see railfans buying tickets for the first revenue trains to operate from that platform.
> ...


Not going to happen as the P32-ACDM will have the same issues that the LIRR has with their third rail locos, that being an engineer in the cab car can't tell if they're stopping the train in a place where the third rail shoes would be out of contact with the third rail and paralyze the entire train until they can fire up the diesel engine to move it.

If they're going to turn the train on the platform, they're going to have to use 2 engines.


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## jis (Jan 24, 2011)

If they are using the diagonal platform and they keep the P32s on the west end, then they won't even need to go to electric mode. They will be pretty near the opening while standing at the platform. They can actually roll into the platform and then transfer over to electric while stationary.


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## FunNut (Jan 24, 2011)

jis said:


> FunNut said:
> 
> 
> > After all this evolution I was pretty worn out (I'd been walking around all day), so I didn't circumnavigate the station. If I had, I might have discovered the "little former street" mentioned in some of the posts above. I didn't see those posts as they were made after I left my hotel today. So I guess tomorrow I might make another foray over there, if I'm in the neighborhood. And, yes, I have googled for a map and cannot find one. Really, does Amtrak have to make it so hard?
> ...


OK, second scouting mission was more successful and I followed the directions above. The "hidden elevator" is right by the KRISPY KREME shop, opposite the Amtrak information booth. If you ascend in that elevator you indeed come to the "little former street" which is now a construction zone. Go to the right after getting off the elevator.

I followed the "used to be a street" (parallel to and between 7th & 8th Avenues) to 31st St. So when arriving at Penn Station for departure one can take a taxi to the "Cafe 31" at 220 W. 31 St. , between 7th and 8th Avenues. This cafe is directly across the street from the walkway to the entrance. Get out of the cab and walk toward the station, past the blue construction walls and trailer. Turn left at the opening between the two buildings (MSG and 2 Penn Plaza), the big building sign says "Pennsylvania Station." Walk about 40 feet and you see a sign on the right for the accessible elevator. This elevator is at the above-mentioned rotunda and the Red Cap desks and waiting area seating are fairly nearby. Ask at the information booth if you can't find them.

If your taxi won't let you out at the cafe, get out at the corner of 31st and 7th, then walk west on 31st to the construction area and turn right. This is a much better route than entering at the 31st and & 7th entrance.

I hope this is helpful to others looking for same information. Thanks again for the guidance in the above posts. I wandered around under the station in the "Hilton Passageway" and other lower regions, the place is a vast maze. I also picked up my ticket, using a kiosk machine. That was very quick and simple, Amtrak has that technology down very well.


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## FunNut (Jan 30, 2011)

As mentioned in my post just above, the entrance from 31st St. is best for people with lots of luggage or in a wheelchair. My taxi let me out right at the cafe, I walked across the street with two wheeled suitcases behind me, then down the "blocked street" and to the elevator. Very easy.

To navigate the escalator to the track I used a Red Cap. He loaded my luggage on his cart and took me down the escalator before the track number was announced. He stood with me as the train pulled in, we waited for the arriving passengers to get off, then he placed my two larger bags on the rack in the coach car. This was certainly worth the tip I gave him, I was on the train well before the other passengers. Thanks again for the maps and suggestions above.


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