# train noise



## tom (Oct 13, 2010)

Amtrak train noise is much louder than any of the other trains which go through our city. I have been present at decibel monitoring demonstrations for trains and am convinced that Amtrak horns are louder than the federal db ceiling allows. Does Amtrak monitor the db levels? Do Amtrak train horns have to be so high when other lines horns are bearable and in compliance with federal requirements?


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## transit54 (Oct 13, 2010)

For one, I think it's important to point out that this forum is in no way affiliated with Amtrak. Most of your concerns would probably be much better addressed directly with Amtrak themselves.

That being said, let me offer some pure speculation. Assuming you are correct that Amtrak's horns are louder, the likely reason is that Amtrak travels much faster than freight railroads - typically 20 MPH or more faster. So trains need to be heard from a much longer distance away to provide the same amount of warning. Most people are expecting a freight train at a crossing and a number of fatalities occur each year when people try and beat the train, expecting a much slower freight.

If your community is concerned about train noise, consider trying to raise the funds to become a quiet zone. This involves putting in quad gates at all crossing across a minimum of five miles. But that would result in trains being able to pass through town without sounding their horns. And quad gates save lives by preventing people from driving around lowered gates. This is what we have in the south end of Burlington, where I work, and several freights pass by a day without ever touching their horns.

Working on a project such as that, rather than gathering db data, would have positive benefits for everyone involved.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Oct 13, 2010)

A LOUD K5LA, the horn of choice for Amtrak is pure music to my ears


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## ALC Rail Writer (Oct 13, 2010)

Amtrak, being Federally subsidized, would be the last railroad to violate federal db limits... This we can be sure of--


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## Acela150 (Oct 13, 2010)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> A LOUD K5LA, the horn of choice for Amtrak is pure music to my ears


Well Agreed!!!  Any Nathan airchime is music to my ears!


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## rrdude (Oct 13, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Amtrak, being Federally subsidized, would be the last railroad to violate federal db limits... This we can be sure of--


Micha, the fact that Amtrak receives a subsidy from the federal government, but is a quasi-public corporation, would have virtually nothing to do with the operational decisions on the loudness, (or not) of their horns.............

Virtually every US Domestic airline receives direct or indirect subsidies from the US Government, and I don't think that fact weighs in on their decisions on what engines to purchase for their jet airliners, or the decibel level of said engines.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Oct 13, 2010)

Misspelled name.

And actually it should. Amtrak's leaders are not motivated by profit. Think of the CEOs of the Class Is, they're businessmen-- now I might not know much about the previous CEOs, but Boardman isn't a businessman. He's a railroader. He was the head of the FRA, the body that governs railroad rules-- to say that there was some oversight and that nobody noticed this in the years of the K5LAs is just asinine.


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## sunchaser (Oct 14, 2010)

We have lived near train tracks most of our lives. I have noticed that the freight trains always seemed louder than Amtrak. Maybe the speed of the engines coupled with the horn maybe make it seem louder. I have noticed that since we don't live as close to the tracks, I don't hear any difference between the trains. Amtrak comes through here late evening/early morning, so really that's the only way I know it's The California Zephyr.

If it is a problem, though, I would check with the city, maybe they can help.


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## zepherdude (Oct 14, 2010)

I would think this is a safety concern and motivated by the NTSB not the CEO. How long does it take a train going 79mph to stop, 1.5 miles or close to it. What about the car with the windows up and the radio on, or the teenager with a head set on not paying any attention. To blame Amtrak for loud train horns is pretty hard, blame the railroad that owns the tracks for having them there, blame the city for not buillding an overpass, blame the county for not insisting on a quad set of gates. I would think the issue here is safety for the reason for the loud train horn. Just a thought.....


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## amtrakwolverine (Oct 14, 2010)

The teenager with the headset on jogging next to or on the tracks etc with the volume at full blast is not going to hear the train horn anyway.


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## zepherdude (Oct 14, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> The teenager with the headset on jogging next to or on the tracks etc with the volume at full blast is not going to hear the train horn anyway.


So we should just discontinue train horns?


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## George Harris (Oct 14, 2010)

There are enough soreheads out and about, that the chance that Amtrak horns exceed legal limits is nil.

It might be worth checking whether the freight horns are as loud as they ought to be. Horns do clog gradually over time.

It could also be an artifact related to train speed. That is, if the train is approaching the frequency will sound higher than it really is. The faster the train, the greater the difference.

Parenthetically, I grew up within half a mile of a very busy railroad line pre air conditioning, and pre welded rail. Train noise was just part of the background and ambience of the area. It is intermittent, so to me much easier to live with than being the same distance from a major highway, regardless of whether you like or don't like train noise.


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## jis (Oct 14, 2010)

rrdude said:


> Virtually every US Domestic airline receives direct or indirect subsidies from the US Government, and I don't think that fact weighs in on their decisions on what engines to purchase for their jet airliners, or the decibel level of said engines.


But they do worry a lot about such if they want to land at certain very popular airports though, which of course they would irrespective of any subsidy.  They do afterall have to maintain their certification in good standing and permissions to use various airports in good standing too, and that has requirements in terms of noise levels they are allowed to produce.


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## DET63 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but whenever I see a thread with an OP by an anonymous or "Guest" poster, it always seems to be anti-Amtrak, or at least anti-rail, with some sort of complaint or anecdote that has little or no background information behind it that might help other posters on the thread arrive at a useful answer or at least proceed with a useful discussion. This thread seems to be rehashing the pros and cons of train horns vs. "quiet zones," which have been discussed time and again before in this forum.


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## rrdude (Oct 14, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Misspelled name.


My bad. Sorry.


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## Wildcat (Oct 14, 2010)

tom said:


> Amtrak train noise is much louder than any of the other trains which go through our city. I have been present at decibel monitoring demonstrations for trains and am convinced that Amtrak horns are louder than the federal db ceiling allows. Does Amtrak monitor the db levels? Do Amtrak train horns have to be so high when other lines horns are bearable and in compliance with federal requirements?


Let's find yet another subject to whine about. Stuff cotton in your ears or just stay away from Amtrak routes altogether.


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## JAChooChoo (Oct 14, 2010)

ll the details are in

Code of Federal Regulations

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF

TRANSPORTATION

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Safety Requirements

Sec. 229.129 Locomotive horn.


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## Ryan (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for the cite.

For those that don't want to chase it down, it reads (in part):



> (a) Each lead locomotive shall be equipped with a locomotive horn that produces a minimum sound level of 96 dB(A) and a maximum sound
> 
> level of 110 dB(A) at 100 feet forward of the locomotive in its
> 
> ...


http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/octqtr/49cfr229.129.htm


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## volkris (Oct 14, 2010)

Remind me again why a train blaring a horn through the city might suggest that the city pay money to build infrastructure to silence the horn?

Seems pretty backward to me. If Amtrak is disturbing the peace with their horns (federally required or not) they should be responsible for minimizing their own disturbance.


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## rrdude (Oct 14, 2010)

volkris said:


> Remind me again why a train blaring a horn through the city might suggest that the city pay money to build infrastructure to silence the horn?
> 
> Seems pretty backward to me. If Amtrak is disturbing the peace with their horns (federally required or not) they should be responsible for minimizing their own disturbance.


 What? That makes zero sense.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 14, 2010)

rrdude said:


> volkris said:
> 
> 
> > Remind me again why a train blaring a horn through the city might suggest that the city pay money to build infrastructure to silence the horn?
> ...


Don't respond. We had a muli-page thread on this novel Volkris theory months ago. Short answer: Safety.


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## transit54 (Oct 14, 2010)

volkris said:


> Remind me again why a train blaring a horn through the city might suggest that the city pay money to build infrastructure to silence the horn?
> 
> Seems pretty backward to me. If Amtrak is disturbing the peace with their horns (federally required or not) they should be responsible for minimizing their own disturbance.


Explain to me again why a railroad should be responsible for paying to silence their horns when the laid the track before the city was even in existence? It's not like this railroad popped out of nowhere.

And who makes the decision of how much of a negative impact the horns are having versus the costs of the remedy (a quiet zone)? Volkris, you're a pretty conservative guy - it's really an economic question: simply because a few homeowners don't like the sound of train horns (and horns of a particular railroad that passes only a handful of times a day, if that) doesn't mean that it makes economic sense for quiet zones to be installed. The negative impact of the horns has to be valued against the cost of installation (using some economic method such as contingent valuation) and then compared to the cost of the crossing gates.

And even forgetting the quiet zone option, it's really not that cut and dry. If you'd be willing to extend Amtrak a waiver of liability for any accidents in which reduced horn noise would be cited, you might have a point. But you have to look at the totality of the issue - do you think that it's better to waive Amtrak's liability (and deprive what you would likely cite as the right of an individual to seek remedy from Amtrak if they are injured) or subject these residents to noise? You can't put Amtrak between a rock and a hard place, which is what would happen if they reduced the horn noise and then an accident occurred.


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## transit54 (Oct 14, 2010)

zephyr17 said:


> Don't respond. We had a muli-page thread on this novel Volkris theory months ago. Short answer: Safety.


Oops...too late! :unsure:

Should have read through the second page of the thread first!


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## m anderson (Jun 22, 2012)

"The negative impact of the horns has to be valued against the cost of installation (using some economic method such as contingent valuation) and then compared to the cost of the crossing gates." YOU say....... THAT, I agree with and totally wish the latest INTERSECTION WARNING was inovated to save the whole city of the intrusive, blaring unnesseary (GATES ARE THERE)noise. It does not save lives, it disrupts them, at the very wrong time of day! Thank you.,


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## Ryan (Jun 22, 2012)

Yep, gates are there and people keep on driving around them.


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## SP&S (Jun 22, 2012)

Ryan said:


> (a) Each lead locomotive shall be equipped with a locomotive horn that produces a minimum sound level of 96 dB(A) and a maximum sound level of 110 dB(A)


Considering that decibels are base 10 logarithmic, 96 to 110 is a very wide range. If Amtrak's were near the top and the freight RR's were near the bottom of the acceptable range the OP's observation could be well correct. I'd say the higher speed of Amtrak trains calls for horns at the upper end of the range. And some folks _still _ignore them.

Hey! You'd better get off the tracks, there's a train coming! What? I can't hear you the train horn's making too much noise. hboy:


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 23, 2012)

Acela150 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > A LOUD K5LA, the horn of choice for Amtrak is pure music to my ears
> ...


Just curious... I Googled "K5LA train horn," and was presented with a page that seems to offer the unit for retail sale.

Noise pollution aside for the moment, is it even legal for a private citizen to own one of these? Point being, I can see

where a lot of motorists/pedestrians might get quite confused (maybe even panicked) at the sound of a K5LA coming

at them where/when one is not expected... perhaps to the point of causing an unnecessary traffic accident.

And, given the price quoted (the cost of 1 round trip on the AT in a full bedroom), I can see where many hard core train

buffs would be willing to pay for one! (not me!) h34r:

Furthermore, in re: train noise, the "bell" on most F40PH's was unique. Is that also available for purchase somewhere?


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## Steve4031 (Jun 23, 2012)

There is a you tube video where some people attached a train horn to their truck and drove around scaring people.


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## Irene Russo (Aug 9, 2013)

Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.


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## June the Coach Rider (Aug 9, 2013)

Irene Russo said:


> Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.


Amtrak does not just blow the horn for the fun of it, there has to be a crossing that you may not be aware of that they are blowing the horn for. If it is so bad, talk to your city and see if they will put up a noise sound proof wall, I am sure you and your neighbors will not mind paying higher taxes to cover it.


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## Acela150 (Aug 9, 2013)

Irene Russo said:


> Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.





June the Coach Rider said:


> Irene Russo said:
> 
> 
> > Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.
> ...


I agree with the above statement to a point. The township or city you live in can ask for a "Quiet Zone". Sound Barriers would do little I would think. But it is a lengthy process and requires a lot of work from a lot of people.

One thing I will add is that if their have been grade crossing accidents at the crossing that will make it less likely that someone will give the "OK" for the "Quiet Zone".


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## George Harris (Aug 9, 2013)

Irene Russo said:


> Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.


The railroad was there before you were. Trains were running on it long before any of us here were born. It has the right to run train and the requirement to give warning at crossings.

That you are surprised by the horns or unaware of their volume is an indication of lack of due diligence on your part in determining what situation you were getting yourself into. You can get acclimated to the horn noise over time. Many people have. I watched a baby sleep through the passing of a freight train with horn blowing at a distance of about 200 feet. Why could he? Probably because he was in his mother's arms in their front yard. Train noise was part of his reality from the time his ears began to function while he was still in the womb.

My feeling about quiet zones is that those promoting such things should be held, in part at least, responsible for any collisions and deaths that occur at crossings with quiet zones.


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## Trainmans daughter (Aug 9, 2013)

George Harris said:


> Irene Russo said:
> 
> 
> > Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.
> ...


Like


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 9, 2013)

I have lived near active freight and passenger rail lines at various times in my life. I was used to the train horn and related noise within a couple of weeks. We became expectant of the trains at their normal schedule and when they didn't run on time, we would wonder what happened. I now live 6 blocks from the FEC rail line and sometimes if I listen, I can hear the train horn during the night when I am in bed and its a very comforting sound. If I listen very carefully I can sometimes hear the Silver Star, Silver Meteor and Auto train from across the river as the trains travel along US 17 in front of NAS JAX. No quiet zones for me.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 9, 2013)

George Harris said:


> Irene Russo said:
> 
> 
> > Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.
> ...


True this! 

NIMBYs here in Austin were able to have the City require "Quiet Zones" to stop the Red Line Commuter Trains (they share the Line with Freights that run @ Night!) from Blowing their Horns and using their Bells @ the Approximately 200 Grade Crossings located on the Route! Double Gates and Signs were placed @ these City Crossings (some of the Private Crossings outside the city are Unmarked/Ungated!) @ a Cost of $2 Million plus the Safety Consultants Fees! Since then there has been 5 deaths and over 50 Collisions @ said Crossings due to Idiot Drivers trying to Drive Around the Gates and issuing "Statements" such as "I didn't hear the Train!" Now Editorials are being written asking What can be done? and the Politicians are all Hand Wringing and issuing Press Releases! And the Beat goes on!


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## benjibear (Aug 9, 2013)

Studies have shown that sound should be 15dB above your surroundings to alert you. This number is used in the fire alarm codes where the sound from the fire alarm needs to be 15dB above the ambient levels. Sitting in your car with the radio on at a lower idle will be about 65dB. To get 15 above that means the train will be 2000 feet away. At 79mph, that 1600 feet is traveled in about 17 seconds. Is that enough time to recognize the warning, undo your seat belt, get out of the car, possibly save children, and get far enough from the tracks so you won't get hurt when the train slams into your car?


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## zepherdude (Aug 9, 2013)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> A LOUD K5LA, the horn of choice for Amtrak is pure music to my ears


Me too!

Tell the kids that wear headsets and walk along RR tracks that the horn should be softer and not as audible.


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## ozbuc (Aug 9, 2013)

Some years ago I rented an apartment in Anaheim Hills. This was right next to the tracks that go up the cajon grade I believe. At night the horns would blow and there I was wishing I was on that train.


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## the_traveler (Aug 9, 2013)

George Harris said:


> Irene Russo said:
> 
> 
> > Who do I actually address my complaints about the horendous noise I experience from amtrak in the middle of the night and we don;t have a crossing near us.
> ...


I agree with this statement 100%. Your "request" makes as much sense as when someone buys a house near an airport that's been there for 50 years - and then complains about the jet noise.
Maybe the trains blow the horn as a warning of a trespasser walking along the tracks. Would you rather have the train hit the trespasser? (The train always wins!)

Besides grade (road) crossings, trains are required to sound the horn prior to a bridge or tunnel.


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## SarahZ (Aug 10, 2013)

While we're at it, let's shut up those stupid ambulances and fire trucks that sound their sirens and horns all night. How dare they put on their lights and sirens when I'm trying to sleep next to a busy, four-lane road that I chose to live next to...


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## Eris (Aug 10, 2013)

Right?! I know! There's a hospital like 6 blocks from our house, and the ambulances use the street a block over from us, just blaring their sirens as they blast through stop signs and street lights. Why do they put a hospital right next to where I bought a house 40 years later??


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## zepherdude (Aug 11, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> While we're at it, let's shut up those stupid ambulances and fire trucks that sound their sirens and horns all night. How dare they put on their lights and sirens when I'm trying to sleep next to a busy, four-lane road that I chose to live next to...


While we quiet Amtrak and shut down highway noise, I think dogs, moose and squirrels need to have a muzzle in place during sleep hours. Cat fights should be outlawed and clock chimes should be silenced as well. Dance hall music and honky tonks are a deff NO and clock radios set to go off at, hmmmmmmmmm, maybe 10:00 am. Horrendous thunderstorms need to also be dealt with by the city council. We need to shut down the noise at night! Start with them dammm trains then the rest of the noise makers!


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## leemell (Aug 12, 2013)

By far the loudest train horn I have ever heard came from a freight at about 2:00 AM in the middle of the San Fernando Valley. I live about 3/4 of a mile from the Ventura line and hear the Metrolink, Surfliner and Amtrak CS, and freight train horns all the time and this freight was VERY loud compared to all the rest. Didn't bother me, just found it interesting.


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## BCL (Aug 12, 2013)

zepherdude said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> > While we're at it, let's shut up those stupid ambulances and fire trucks that sound their sirens and horns all night. How dare they put on their lights and sirens when I'm trying to sleep next to a busy, four-lane road that I chose to live next to...
> ...


And I wish they could do something about all those annoying birds waking me up in the morning every time I go camping.

Seriously though, a lot of municipalities make a big deal about noise abatement. Orange County Airport in Southern California has noise limit requirements that basically force aircraft into climbing faster with a quick power cutoff during the climb to reduce the noise. Noise levels are monitored and airlines can be fined for violations. Other airports have adopted curfews that apply except for delays (takeoff noise is the big culprit), Many mitigate noise heavily. Modern jet engines are extremely quiet compared to the equivalent from 30 years ago. The biggest issue with airport noise is actually the freight carriers who tend to run older aircraft that weren't built to modern noise standards. They're still flying DC-10s, which are really loud. FexEx actually has a brisk business selling "hush kits" for 727s that they developed in house.

http://www.fedex.com/us/hushkit/helpdecide/

The issue with trains is that they do travel at grade. In places where they travel on elevated or subterranean tracks, they don't need the horns as much. In downtown Reno it's gotten a lot quieter since they built a trench.

I ride BART a lot. The only time the operators activate the horn is when they enter a station. There's no other need for a horn when there are no at grade crossings.


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## SarahZ (Aug 12, 2013)

I think I'm the only person who purposely lives near the Amtrak line.  I've had apartments just one block away for the past five years. I love hearing the trains pass by.


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## JayPea (Aug 12, 2013)

In Spokane, one of the arguments the locals have against a possible large increase in train traffic due to coal trains is that there would be much more noise from train horns. Problem is the BNSF tracks through Spokane are the old NP tracks, and the NP had the foresight nearly 100 years ago to elevate their tracks. There are a tiny number of grade crossings on the UP tracks east of downtown but there are none on the BNSF main anywhere within the city limits. East of Spokane, yes, but none in Spokane itself.


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## benjibear (Aug 13, 2013)

What one person calls noise, another persons calls music.


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## VentureForth (Aug 13, 2013)

Now that everyone has trashed our guest, allow me to say the following. First, it is unlikely that ONLY Amtrak uses the track that you are referring to. And, as mentioned, I'm sure there is some sort of grade crossing where the horns are being sounded. Trains also sound their horns if there are people trespassing on the track. Absent of any requirements, the train should not be sounding its horn.

There is one local freight driver near me who I can identify every time he is at the throttle. From the time he crosses the river, for about two or three miles to the next grade crossing, you can hear him tooting up a storm. Just a bunch of light tweets. Depending on his shift, it can happen at any time of day.

Conversely, I have know engineers who have NOT sounded the horn where they are supposed to at night. Should anything happen, event recorders will tattle on the driver.

To sum up, you can request the city to designate the area as a quiet zone. This will require a lot of expensive equipment to install that you and your fellow taxpayers will have to foot the bill for. But that is the only option. Asking Amtrak to stop, is not.


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