# Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)



## lordsigma

Apparently a major accident near Shelby. Pending details.


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## sitzplatz17

Was just at the Edmonds, WA station and heard (and saw on twitter as well) that the Empire Builder seems to have had a pretty bad derailment in MT. Will try and post more as I hear more.
Really hoping everyone is ok but the sightseer lounge looks like it’s on its side.


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## Bruce Williams

7(24) is stopped showing service disruption near Joplin, Mt.


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## desertflyer

Pretty concerning pictures from Twitter. Sightseer is on its side, and it looks like at least one other car as well.


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## Acela150

I am SAFE in Seattle as of 1030 this morning.


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## AmtrakBlue




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## TinCan782

Amtrak train derailment in Montana kills three people, cause under investigation - KXLY


The Empire Builder train 7/27 derailed seven of the ten cars at around 4 p.m. in Montana. It's not known how many were injured.




www.kxly.com


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## 87YJ

Sad to hear.


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## frequentflyer

Tight lock couplers worked somewhat, there would be a sleeper and Coach behind that lounge. The separate car on its side is concerning. Hope injuries are kept to a minimum.


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## tim49424

I’m hearing at least five fatalities and many injured.


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## Cal

tim49424 said:


> I’m hearing at least five fatalities and many injured.


Oh god... I didn't think there would be any deaths. 


Acela150 said:


> I am SAFE in Seattle as of 1030 this morning.


Good to know you weren't on the train.


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## tim49424

Cal said:


> Oh god... I didn't think there would be any deaths.



I was hoping not but from the pictures, I feared the worst.


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## Cal

tim49424 said:


> I’m hearing at least five fatalities and many injured.


Source?


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## crescent-zephyr

Are those the 2 sleepers turned on side seperate from the rest of the consist?


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## DaveW

The pictures in article from Daily Mail looks like in process of replacing rotten wood ties.

Daily Mail article


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are those the 2 sleepers turned on side seperate from the rest of the consist?


Sure looks like it, from the pictures this is what it looks like to me: 

Portland section all turned on it's side, with the cars behind the SSL (ONe sleeper and one or two coaches, looks like one) disconnected from the rest of the train.


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## tim49424

Cal said:


> Source?



Buddy of mine who is a conductor on the Empire Builder in the St. Cloud crew.


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## frequentflyer

That explains the where the Portland section was, should be behind the Lounge. Tight lock couplers are super strong but cannot overcome physics.

Really, really, really, really hoping the five fatalities is a bad rumor.


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## Cal

tim49424 said:


> Buddy of mine who is a conductor on the Empire Builder in the St. Cloud crew.


Thanks


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## crescent-zephyr

Also appears to be at a switch... perhaps one of the cars picked the switch at speed... looks like back trucks of diner are on the ground. 

Very sad.


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## frequentflyer

Bruce Williams said:


> 7(24) is stopped showing service disruption near Joplin, Mt.



Amtrak has removed the train from the tracking website.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also appears to be at a switch... perhaps one of the cars picked the switch at speed... looks like back trucks of diner are on the ground.
> 
> Very sad.


I wonder what happened in the diner during it! Always been curious to see how much stuff would spill/fall and break, and how they would clean it up afterwards. Well, I guess they would be evacuating in this instance.


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## Cal

frequentflyer said:


> Amtrak has removed the train from the tracking website.


I saw that on Amtrak/Via live map.


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## Cal

And on a different note, there goes another SSL that will be out of service.


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## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I wonder what happened in the diner during it! Always been curious to see how much stuff would spill/fall and break, and how they would clean it up afterwards. Well, I guess they would be evacuating in this instance.



This is the exact reason that all Amtrak diners and lounge cars have to have booth seating or chairs bolted to ground. Also why the coffee makers have to be installed. 

Still, those cars wouldn’t fall gently.

Very sad.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> This is the exact reason that all Amtrak diners and lounge cars have to have booth seating or chairs bolted to ground. Also why the coffee makers have to be installed.


Mhm, but also all the plates, food in the kitchen and up top. And they should've been in dinner service too.


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## tim49424

frequentflyer said:


> Really, really, really, really hoping the five fatalities is a bad rumor.



Helena Montana paper reports three dead. I couldn't read more than the first paragraph because it's behind a paywall.


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## 87YJ

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also appears to be at a switch... perhaps one of the cars picked the switch at speed... looks like back trucks of diner are on the ground.
> 
> Very sad.


3,000feet past a switch, makes you wonder.


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## crescent-zephyr

87YJ said:


> 3,000feet past a switch, makes you wonder.



Engineer probably didn’t even dump the air, the cars did that for him when they separated. Anyone know what the track speed is there?


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## Cal

UPDATE: Amtrak confirms 3 deaths in Hi-Line train derailment


An Amtrak passenger train derailed in Liberty County Saturday afternoon.




www.ktvh.com





Nothing on deaths, but confirms people were trapped. About 150 on board, 13 crew.


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## PRR 60

Billings Gazette reports "at least three fatalities."

Billings Gazette


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## TinCan782

tim49424 said:


> Helena Montana paper reports three dead. I couldn't read more than the first paragraph because it's behind a paywall.


ABC news in Chicago also reporting 3 deaths...








3 dead after a cross-country Amtrak train that originated in Chicago derails in Montana: officials


Three people are dead and multiple others injured after an Amtrak train that originated in Chicago derailed Saturday in Montana, according to officials.




abc7chicago.com


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## TinCan782

crescent-zephyr said:


> Engineer probably didn’t even dump the air, the cars did that for him when they separated. Anyone know what the track speed is there?


Looking at my GPS tracklogs from my last two trips through there...at Buelow we were travling about 70 on one trip and 78 on the other.
Here is Buelow on Google maps...








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## crescent-zephyr

FrensicPic said:


> Looking at my GPS tracklogs from my last two trips through there...at Buelow we were travling about 70 on one trip and 78 on the other.
> Here is Buelow on Google maps...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



That’s what I was thinking. I’m guessing the diner picked the switch and the whiplash force sent those last few cars over and broke the coupler. 

The lounge probably got dragged along a bit before ending up on its side. 

That type of force at 79 mph would be really bad.


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## frequentflyer

The Superliners are an amazing piece of engineering and my hats off to the Pullman engineers that found a way to keep the CG so low in a tall car. But on an embankment, physics again takes over. The unfortunate thing about sitting 16 feet in the air, further to the ground when rolling over. 

The cars separating is concerning, that is why Amtrak trains have stronger couplers than freight cars, you want to cars to stay together, 

Saddened about the three fatalities, condolences and sympathies to their families that will receive the bad news.


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## dwebarts

The NY Times report (forgive me if I glossed over it in earlier links).


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## Amtrak Apple

So it look like the SSL and the two coach cars are on their sides and quite a ways back from the rest of the train and sleeper/dining cars stayed upright? Yikes.


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## Cal

Amtrak Apple said:


> So it look like the SSL and the two coach cars are on their sides and quite a ways back from the rest of the train and sleeper/dining cars stayed upright? Yikes.


The last car is a sleeper.


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## Amtrak Apple

I should say, the coaches are a ways back from the rest of the train, not the SSL.


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## TinCan782

Cal said:


> The last car is a sleeper.


The Portland sleeper (#27)


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## PRR 60

The is the tracking log of #7 (24). Shows 79mph just before the derailment. Scroll down to the map and click on the dots.

Train Details


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## Amtrak Apple

Cal said:


> The last car is a sleeper.


Ohhhhh, so one coach and one sleeper? I've only ridden that specific route once - I take it the lineup is atypical from the east bound train?


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## crescent-zephyr

Amtrak Apple said:


> So it look like the SSL and the two coach cars are on their sides and quite a ways back from the rest of the train and sleeper/dining cars stayed upright? Yikes.



The diner is partially derailed but upright. The SSL is on its side behind the diner. 

The rest of the Portland section is on its side and seperate from the train. 

(I’m just stating what it appears to me in the photos - I may have missed something)


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## NW cannonball

Just saw this headline -- searching for mmore news


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## George K

dwebarts said:


> The NY Times report (forgive me if I glossed over it in earlier links).


“Everybody who is alive has been extricated from the wreck,” Ms. Frickel said.

Well, that certainly doesn't sound good.


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## crescent-zephyr

I forgot this is the empire builder consist... what I was calling the diner might have been a coach. Don’t they usually have the Seattle coaches between the diner and ssl?


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## 20th Century Rider

Deep sadness when Amtrak is working so hard to survive. 









Amtrak train derails in remote part of Montana, killing at least 3 people | CNN


An Amtrak train traveling from Chicago to the Pacific Northwest derailed in a remote part of Montana on Saturday afternoon, killing three people and hospitalizing five others, authorities said.




www.cnn.com







> (CNN)Three people are dead after an Amtrak train derailed in Montana on Saturday afternoon, the Liberty County Sheriff's office said in a statement to CNN.
> Authorities would not speak on the number of injured or the extent of their injuries.
> A statement from the railway said five cars from Amtrak's Empire Builder train 7/27 derailed near Joplin, Montana, injuring an undisclosed number of passengers.



MODERATOR NOTE: edited because of copyright regulations


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## Amtrak Apple

crescent-zephyr said:


> The diner is partially derailed but upright. The SSL is on its side behind the diner.
> 
> The rest of the Portland section is on its side and seperate from the train.
> 
> (I’m just stating what it appears to me in the photos - I may have missed something)



Oh, wow. I feel a little weird thinking about this because if I was on this train, I'd have been in the cars that were still upright. (I'm along the Seattle route.) Yikes.


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## fdaley

Horrible news. And those photos. We always tell ourselves that the train is the safest way to travel, and it's true, but that only makes it more disturbing when something like this happens. How many times have we all banged over a switch at 79 mph?


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I forgot this is the empire builder consist... what I was calling the diner might have been a coach. Don’t they usually have the Seattle coaches between the diner and ssl?


Yep, they do. Usually two but this train only had one due to covid. 



Amtrak Apple said:


> Oh, wow. I feel a little weird thinking about this because if I was on this train, I'd have been in the cars that were still upright. (I'm along the Seattle route.) Yikes.


This is the typical consist for trains 27/7 and 28/8 

Two engines
Baggage 
Trans dorm 
1-2 Seattle sleepers 
_Diner 
1-2 Seattle coaches
*Lounge *_
*1-2 Portland coaches *
_*1 Portland sleeper* _


Everything in italics derailed, everything in bold was turned on it's side in this wreck.


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## Cascadia

Steve Lookner at Agenda Free TV on YouTube is covering this in a livestream right now, curating from various news sources and twitter feeds and educating himself about the Empire Builder as he goes along, he always does a good job


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## Rasputin

Sadly this is not the first time there has been a passenger train accident at Buelow which has resulted in multiple fatalities. The earlier one, if I recall correctly was a head-on around 1964 between two Great Northern passenger trains (can't recall which ones offhand) and it was far worse (14 killed seems to come to mind.) Corrections would be welcome.


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## Cal

Rasputin said:


> Sadly this is not the first time there has been a passenger train accident at Buelow which has resulted in multiple fatalities. The earlier one, if I recall correctly was a head-on around 1964 between two Great Northern passenger trains (can't recall which ones offhand) and it was far worse (14 killed seems to come to mind.) Corrections would be welcome.


Wow.


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## WWW

fdaley said:


> Horrible news. And those photos. We always tell ourselves that the train is the safest way to travel, and it's true, but that only makes it more disturbing when something like this happens. How many times have we all banged over a switch at 79 mph?


Banged over a switch - going thru on the main track ? OR ? taking the switch at high speed * I don't think so even looking at the angle of the switches
on that siding (Google Map) would required a reduction in speed and note the curvature of the double track - - - 

Google Maps 

Zoom In or Out - Pan right or left


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## NSC1109

Honestly looks like the switch got picked given the location and how the train derailed.
This is pure speculation, but given my experiences recently working for a Class I, I would be willing to bet that the switch was slightly gapped (meaning the point wasn’t totally flush with the rail) and then a car with a thin flange picked it.

Prayers for the three families who lost their loved ones today.


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## Cal

Cascadia said:


> Steve Lookner at Agenda Free TV on YouTube is covering this in a livestream right now, curating from various news sources and twitter feeds and educating himself about the Empire Builder as he goes along, he always does a good job



Eh, I mean they aren't too knowledgeable on Amtrak, so I don't think theres anything i can get there that I can't get here


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## WWW

Rasputin said:


> Sadly this is not the first time there has been a passenger train accident at Buelow which has resulted in multiple fatalities. The earlier one, if I recall correctly was a head-on around 1964 between two Great Northern passenger trains (can't recall which ones offhand) and it was far worse (14 killed seems to come to mind.) Corrections would be welcome.


Could this have been the 1945 crash ?

Train Wreck of 1945 - Michigan, North Dakota (michigannd.com)


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## Rasputin

WWW said:


> Could this have been the 1945 crash ?
> 
> Train Wreck of 1945 - Michigan, North Dakota (michigannd.com)


No, it was a head-on at Buelow, Montana around 1964, maybe 1962.


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## PereMarquette810

Given that the FRA sent an automated inspection car along the Builder earlier this month, I’m going to be quite curious to see what was both noted and missed on that trip.






FRA car on Empire Builder 8(31)


FRA DOTX 221 was on Train 8(31). Here it is at Winona MN on 9/2.




www.amtraktrains.com


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## jis

NTSB sending a go team....


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## Rasputin

Rasputin said:


> No, it was a head-on at Buelow, Montana around 1964, maybe 1962.


I need to correct myself. The prior accident at Buelow was on March 7, 1966 following I believe a two day blizzard. The engineer of the Empire Builder and the engineer of a Passenger Extra were both killed and there were many injuries but no other fatalities. Great Northern President John M. Budd was a passenger on one of the trains (back when management actually rode their trains.) Sorry for the incorrect information in my earlier post.


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## cocojacoby

NSC1109 said:


> Honestly looks like the switch got picked given the location and how the train derailed.
> This is pure speculation, but given my experiences recently working for a Class I, I would be willing to bet that the switch was slightly gapped (meaning the point wasn’t totally flush with the rail) and then a car with a thin flange picked it.



Yeah, most of the train (or at least half) got through okay so I think you are right. Very sad and condolences to anyone involved.


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## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah, most of the train (or at least half) got through okay so I think you are right. Very sad and condolences to anyone involved.


According to Amtrak, 7 cars out of 10 derailed.









Update: Statement on Empire Builder Derailment near Joplin, Mont. - Amtrak Media


Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn, Amtrak President Stephen Gardner and the company’s chief safety and operations executives are in Montana at the accident site to support National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Railroad Administration investigators and officials to ensure any assistance necessary...




media.amtrak.com





Remember, the original derailment started somewhere a bit east of where the last cars are lying on their side, pretty far from where the rest of the train upto the SSL is located.

As a result of the derailment naturally Empire Builder service is affected as follows (quoted from the Amtrak Media post linked to above):


> As a result of the derailment, _Empire Builder_ trains 7/27 and 8/28 originating on Saturday, Sept. 25, are cancelled between Minot, ND (MOT) and Shelby, MT (SBY). Additionally, on Sunday, Sept. 26, westbound _Empire Builder_ train 7 will terminate in Minneapolis, MN (MSP) and eastbound _Empire Builder_ train 8 will originate in Minneapolis, MN (MSP). No substitute transportation is available. Amtrak customers can contact us at *800-872-7245* to obtain additional information about the status of services.


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## Rover

I rode the Empire Builder, going west from Minneapolis in 1981.









Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana


JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Montana that killed three people and left seven hospitalized Sunday, officials said.




apnews.com





_Five Amtrak cars derailed around 3:55 p.m. Mountain Daylight Time and no other trains or equipment were involved, Weiss said. The train was traveling on a BNSF Railroad main track at the time, he said. 

Amtrak said that because of the derailment, the Sunday westbound Empire Builder will terminate in Minneapolis, and the Sunday eastbound Empire Builder train will originate in Minneapolis.









Train derails ‘leaving at least 3 people dead and 50 injured’ in ‘gory’ scene


AN Amtrak train derailment in Montana has “killed at least three people and left 50 injured” after seven railroad cars detached and toppled over at the “gory” scene, reports…




www.the-sun.com




_


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## crescent-zephyr

NSC1109 said:


> Honestly looks like the switch got picked given the location and how the train derailed.
> This is pure speculation, but given my experiences recently working for a Class I, I would be willing to bet that the switch was slightly gapped (meaning the point wasn’t totally flush with the rail) and then a car with a thin flange picked it.
> 
> Prayers for the three families who lost their loved ones today.



I agree. That’s my thoughts as well.



jis said:


> Remember, the original derailment started somewhere a bit east of where the last cars are lying on their side, pretty far from where the rest of the train upto the SSL is located.



This was a complex derailment. I think it started at the switch and the force of some cars splitting the switch sent as whiplash through the train strong enough that it toppled the last car over which carried other cars with it until a coupler broke and left those cars behind as the ssl was dragged by the rest of the consist.


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## Willbridge

jis said:


> According to Amtrak, 7 cars out of 10 derailed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update: Statement on Empire Builder Derailment near Joplin, Mont. - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn, Amtrak President Stephen Gardner and the company’s chief safety and operations executives are in Montana at the accident site to support National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Railroad Administration investigators and officials to ensure any assistance necessary...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> media.amtrak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, the original derailment started somewhere a bit east of where the last cars are lying on their side, pretty far from where the rest of the train upto the SSL is located.
> 
> As a result of the derailment naturally Empire Builder service is affected as follows (quoted from the Amtrak Media post linked to above):


As of 9 p.m. Pacific Time the Portland _Oregonian _still was just carrying the AP story that said the train was going to Seattle. The Oregon "paper of record" has been especially hard hit with cutbacks by the hedge fund that controls it. The family-owned _Seattle Times _sent a message to internet subscribers a couple of hours before with the AP story. Because the people who were able to be interviewed were in the Seattle section the media have the idea that's where the train was headed. It may be a while before we read accounts from the Portland cars.


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## jis

Willbridge said:


> As of 9 p.m. Pacific Time the Portland _Oregonian _still was just carrying the AP story that said the train was going to Seattle. The Oregon "paper of record" has been especially hard hit with cutbacks by the hedge fund that controls it. The family-owned _Seattle Times _sent a message to internet subscribers a couple of hours before with the AP story. Because the people who were able to be interviewed were in the Seattle section the media have the idea that's where the train was headed. It may be a while before we read accounts from the Portland cars.


This is particularly sad considering most of the damage and injuries and fatalities are most likely in the Portland section, since those are the cars that capsized.


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## Charles785

Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?

First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?

And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?' 

Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?

Thanks!


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## Willbridge

jis said:


> This is particularly sad considering most of the damage and injuries and fatalities are most likely in the Portland section, since those are the cars that capsized.



KPTV-12 (Fox) in Portland at 9:15 pm just has this as a national item from earlier in the day. Local shootings lead.

KGW-8 in Portland had a text update that added Portland as a destination, but the video was from their sister Seattle station with an earnest reporter standing with King Street Station in the background, promising to report if people from the Seattle area were injured.
Author: KING 5 Staff
Published: 5:42 PM PDT September 25, 2021
Updated: 8:58 PM PDT September 25, 2021

KATU-2 in Portland at 9:25 pm had nothing, even below the day's diet of shootings and follow-ups.

KOIN-6 in Portland at 9:28 pm had nothing. Did have some deeper stories on important topics.

The Vancouver _Columbian _had the story as a train to Seattle, 
By Associated Press
Published: September 25, 2021, 7:15pm


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## NW cannonball

I'm still trying to make sense of the news photos I've seen -- looks like the SSL and the Portland sleeper are on their sides -- or .. 

I also want to comment on how well the local emergency services and their backup help responded. 
Those local people organized an amazing response. Consider that within a hundred miles there's three, maybe five-six counties, most have less than five thousand inhabitants. The biggest county (Hill,county seat Havre) on the Hi-Line has less than 20,000 people in almost 3000 square miles. 

Fair use quote from the New York Times (in parts of NYC, there's 20,000 people living in less than *one *square mile) 



> Amanda Frickel, the disaster and emergency services coordinator for Hill County, Mont., said in an interview that “well over” 50 people had been injured.
> She said that rescuers from six counties were responding to the scene and that as many as five hospitals were on standby to receive injured passengers. There were also a number of medical helicopters standing by, she said.



North edge of nowhere, safety net in place. Medevac helos available. Good.


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## Burns651

fdaley said:


> Horrible news. And those photos. We always tell ourselves that the train is the safest way to travel, and it's true



No, it's not true. After the Feb. 2009 Colgan Air crash, 5 people have died in crashes aboard regularly scheduled commercial (non-sightseeing, non-charter) flights in the US. In the same period with Amtrak through this Montana crash (assuming the 3 killed figure holds), 21 people aboard have died in crashes. And that's with some 99% fewer passenger miles as planes.


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## NSC1109

Charles785 said:


> Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?
> 
> First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?
> 
> And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?'
> 
> Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?
> 
> Thanks!



A switch allows a train to transition from one track to another, from one track to multiple tracks, or multiple tracks to one track.

By “picking a switch”, it means that the switch points (which determine what track the train goes on) was not fully lined for a particular track. Railroad wheels with a healthy flange likely won’t have an issue with a small gap; however, wheels with a “thin flange” (what keeps the wheels from falling off the rail) can get through the gapped switch and cause that wheel or the whole truck to follow the track opposite of what was intended, usually causing a major derailment if it’s done at speed.

A gapped switch can occur over the course of normal wear and tear and also as a result of being run-through (a train traveling through the points even though it’s not lined for that route). However, the Hi Line is CTC controlled at that location, so a run-through without being noticed is unlikely.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Cal said:


> Yep, they do. Usually two but this train only had one due to covid.
> 
> 
> This is the typical consist for trains 27/7 and 28/8
> 
> Two engines
> Baggage
> Trans dorm
> 1-2 Seattle sleepers
> _Diner
> 1-2 Seattle coaches
> *Lounge *_
> *1-2 Portland coaches *
> _*1 Portland sleeper* _
> 
> 
> Everything in italics derailed, everything in bold was turned on it's side in this wreck.


There are always at least 2 Portland coaches, since one needs to have lower level ADA seating and one needs to have checked baggage. Assuming the consist was in the normal configuration, that would mean 4 cars (including the SSL) ended up on their side.


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## danasgoodstuff

Yes, the Hi-line is thinly populated, but the Builder does run parallel to US Hwy. 2 and they should be set up for dealing with wrecks on it. There are places on the Builder's route that are less accessible.


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## George Harris

Charles785 said:


> Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?
> 
> First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?
> 
> And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?'
> 
> Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?
> 
> Thanks!


Since I have been playing with full size tracks and railroads for most of my working life and had a toy train set, and a Marx O-gauge as a kid I really don't know where to start. First, the whole blooming thing is properly called a turnout, although switch is commonly used as a synonym. A turnout is used where one track diverges from another one. Generally railroads try to minimize the number of turnouts in main tracks. The switch is the movable part which shifts to determine which way the train will go. Where the two rails cross is called a frog, and is a non-moving component. To get right to the point at hand, the point of switch is where the tip of the switch is shoved against one rail or the other. There are two switch blades, one for each rail. When open the gap is 4 3/4 inches. When closed the gap is supposed to be zero, but there is an allowable gap in the FRA safety rules. "Facing point" is when the train is approaching the turnout at the switch end. This is the move where gap is critical. "Trailing point" is when the train is moving from the frog end, in other words into the one track from the dividing end. Gap is usually of no issue in this direction, as the train wheels will simply push their way through. To "pick a switch" means that in a facing point move a wheel went through the switch point on the other than intended side. This will always result in a derailment. 

This explanation could go on for pages but I will stop here. Do some on-line research and then come back with questions on the parts that are not easy to understand. Also, remember that not everything you see on line is accurate, and sometimes not even close.


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## Willbridge

At 10 p.m. Pacific Time, AP and Reuters still had no mention of Portland. Reuters listed past Amtrak and U.S. commuter train wrecks in the past decade. Due to the Oregonian's horribly early press time it is possible that on Sunday morning there will be people expecting Train 27 to arrive in Portland, Vancouver, Bingen-White Salmon, etc, Television news won't catch on unless the AP or a daily newspaper covers a story like this.

On Sunday I'm due to participate in a Zoom discussion of social media issues and this will be a constructive example of citizen reporting (both AP and Reuters were using social media photos).


----------



## Acela150

NSC1109 said:


> Honestly looks like the switch got picked given the location and how the train derailed.
> This is pure speculation, but given my experiences recently working for a Class I, I would be willing to bet that the switch was slightly gapped (meaning the point wasn’t totally flush with the rail) and then a car with a thin flange picked it.
> 
> Prayers for the three families who lost their loved ones today.



I'm going to be real honest here and I'm going to sound like a jerk.. But it needs to be said. You used one word. Speculation. Do everyone a favor and keep that to yourself. I don't care what your experience is with a Class I, II, or III. And if you really do have "experience" with any railroad you wouldn't have said any of that. 

This is personal to me for several reasons. You can understand why. 

With that being said... I'm going to request the Mods and Admins remove any speculation posts or at the very least keep a very close eye on the potential posts. No one here was on the train, no one knows what happened, no one knows what the head end crew saw or didn't see, and the actions they took. That is for the NTSB to investigate, NOT Railfans who use Facebook pictures as their evidence. The speculation makes it a lot worse.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

KGW, Channel 8 in Portland is now reporting Portland as a destination but they don't appear to get that it was the Portland part of the train that derailed.


----------



## Cal

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> There are always at least 2 Portland coaches, since one needs to have lower level ADA seating and one needs to have checked baggage. Assuming the consist was in the normal configuration, that would mean 4 cars (including the SSL) ended up on their side.


Yes, however all the photos that I saw have the SSL directly behind the main consist, still connected on it's side. And it's the last car that stayed with the man section. And then only two other cars that broke off ,where is the other?


----------



## NW cannonball

danasgoodstuff said:


> Yes, the Hi-line is thinly populated, but the Builder does run parallel to US Hwy. 2 and they should be set up for dealing with wrecks on it. There are places on the Builder's route that are less accessible.


Agree that there's less accessible places on the Hi-line, like in the Rockies and Cascades.
US Hwy 2 is drive-able at 90 mph most of the way from Duluth to Everett, BUT many places along US Hwy 2, if your car breaks down, you might have to walk a few miles to get in range of the nearest cell tower. Just sayin.


----------



## WWW

Charles785 said:


> Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?
> 
> First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?
> 
> And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?'
> 
> Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?
> 
> Thanks!


LINK to pictures of switches:

railroad switches pictures - Bing 

Switches are needed when tracks diverge or merge - - -

This accident occurred (near) where there is a siding where switches switch the movement off of the main line to a siding and back on.

Something caused the end (4) cars of the EB to leave the tracks - derailing - an investigation will determine just what that was.

I will let the gandy dancer experts take it from here to explain that "picked" term


----------



## Cal

Acela150 said:


> I'm going to be real honest here and I'm going to sound like a jerk.. But it needs to be said. You used one word. Speculation. Do everyone a favor and keep that to yourself. I don't care what your experience is with a Class I, II, or III. And if you really do have "experience" with any railroad you wouldn't have said any of that.
> 
> This is personal to me for several reasons. You can understand why.
> 
> With that being said... I'm going to request the Mods and Admins remove any speculation posts or at the very least keep a very close eye on the potential posts. No one here was on the train, no one knows what happened, no one knows what the head end crew saw or didn't see, and the actions they took. That is for the NTSB to investigate, NOT Railfans who use Facebook pictures as their evidence. The speculation makes it a lot worse.


Isn't a lot of this forum speculation in general? There has been a lot of speculation about a lot of things we have very little proper knowledge on. The member was just giving an idea about the cause (as to how realistic it is, I don't know), and there are always a lot of ideas that vary in realism hovering around this forum. And I think that speculation would be a normal thing to do when things happen.


----------



## NW cannonball

Cal said:


> Yes, however all the photos that I saw have the SSL directly behind the main consist, still connected on it's side. And it's the last car that stayed with the man section. And then only two other cars that broke off ,where is the other?


Amtrak says 7 cars derailed. The SSL, 2 coaches, and the Portland Sleeper are visible in most of the photos online. What are the other 3 cars that derailed? 
I sure dunno. Forward of the SSL in the Seattle section of the train, if typical consist (which I watch 3 out of 7 nights going west) there's one coach for Seattle, then the Dining Car, then two Seattle sleeping cars, the transition-dorm-roomette car, a baggage car, and the two motors.
All the new photos I've seen so far have focused on the back end of the train, the Portland section. 
Where in the train the derailment started -- No se. No clue. No photos. No idea.


----------



## WWW

Cal said:


> Yes, however all the photos that I saw have the SSL directly behind the main consist, still connected on it's side. And it's the last car that stayed with the man section. And then only two other cars that broke off ,where is the other?


The consist of the EB when it leaves MSP is 2 locomotives - a baggage car - a transdorm car - 2 sleepers - a diner - a coach - the sight seeing lounge -
and three cars destined for Portland at the Spokane split. This is the usual customary consist going both east train #8 and west train #7.
It appears that the last 4 cars derailed and are laying on their side.


----------



## Willbridge

danasgoodstuff said:


> KGW, Channel 8 in Portland is now reporting Portland as a destination but they don't appear to get that it was the Portland part of the train that derailed.


Right. The story is still coming from their Seattle station (KING) and being relayed by KGW and KREM (Spokane). Amtrak should also get a pat on the back for promptly getting word out of the number to call to check on family members, etc. It's hard to do these things in any case and it's harder to do on weekends.

KPTV - Fox updated their material in time for their 11 pm PDT newscast, including the incredibly simple task of looking at the Amtrak website and getting the Portland section explained fairly well. However, they didn't get the Amtrak hot line phone number. KOIN still hasn't done a local story.


----------



## WWW

NW cannonball said:


> Amtrak says 7 cars derailed. The SSL, 2 coaches, and the Portland Sleeper are visible in most of the photos online. What are the other 3 cars that derailed?
> I sure dunno. Forward of the SSL in the Seattle section of the train, if typical consist (which I watch 3 out of 7 nights going west) there's one coach for Seattle, then the Dining Car, then two Seattle sleeping cars, the transition-dorm-roomette car, a baggage car, and the two motors.
> All the new photos I've seen so far have focused on the back end of the train, the Portland section.
> Where in the train the derailment started -- No se. No clue. No photos. No idea.


Viewing the photos and video feeds the cars still on the tracks - 2 locos - bag car - transdorm - and 1 or 2 sleepers - The diner and coach car are off
the rails still standing upright - the SSL and the 3 Portland cars laying on their sides.


----------



## NSC1109

Acela150 said:


> I'm going to be real honest here and I'm going to sound like a jerk.. But it needs to be said. You used one word. Speculation. Do everyone a favor and keep that to yourself. I don't care what your experience is with a Class I, II, or III. And if you really do have "experience" with any railroad you wouldn't have said any of that.
> 
> This is personal to me for several reasons. You can understand why.
> 
> With that being said... I'm going to request the Mods and Admins remove any speculation posts or at the very least keep a very close eye on the potential posts. No one here was on the train, no one knows what happened, no one knows what the head end crew saw or didn't see, and the actions they took. That is for the NTSB to investigate, NOT Railfans who use Facebook pictures as their evidence. The speculation makes it a lot worse.



I understand it’s personal to you. It’s personal to everyone who knew the crew involved. And you have my sympathies if you knew anyone on board who was injured or god forbid killed.

That being said, I’m not a “railfan”. I do work for a western Class I in their Transportation department. The NTSB will investigate as usual and we will eventually know what happened. I can tell you from my experiences working derailments, including a picked switch, this looks exactly like what happened. I haven’t placed blame on anyone. It would be inappropriate to do so with the evidence at hand. I simply said it looks like the train picked the switch based on the emerging photos, and that’s based on my work experience. 

Cal is correct, this forum is based on a lot of speculation anyway. That’s sort of the point of it, being a discussion forum after all. I would agree that truly uninformed comments have no place here. But informed opinions should be included in the debate. Perhaps speculation was not the right word for me to choose.


----------



## roadman3313

Acela150 said:


> I'm going to be real honest here and I'm going to sound like a jerk.. But it needs to be said. You used one word. Speculation. Do everyone a favor and keep that to yourself. I don't care what your experience is with a Class I, II, or III. And if you really do have "experience" with any railroad you wouldn't have said any of that.
> 
> This is personal to me for several reasons. You can understand why.
> 
> With that being said... I'm going to request the Mods and Admins remove any speculation posts or at the very least keep a very close eye on the potential posts. No one here was on the train, no one knows what happened, no one knows what the head end crew saw or didn't see, and the actions they took. That is for the NTSB to investigate, NOT Railfans who use Facebook pictures as their evidence. The speculation makes it a lot worse.



I do not post often here as of recent but I need to respond to something on this post that may sound like being a jerk as well, though that is not my intention. I believe in speaking up when something needs to be said and this is really bothering me so I need to say it. I first want to highlight that I respect your experience and can see from my understanding of that experience why this is personal to you. I also want to say that there are many out there right now who are going through a flood of emotions when incidents like this happen who may have varying levels of involvement that we may or may not know. Some here know my ties to the transportation sector and the railroad both through my volunteer work and professionally and that I am also a rail incident investigator in the transportation sector, but I do not generally comment on that here. I have seen my share of fatal incidents. Speculation can be very dangerous, however I also understand that I have colleagues and friends who express their emotions regarding incidents I have worked in different ways. Some try to rationalize what has occurred to try to put some perspective to it to try to get some semblance of peace of mind. Maybe they have an upcoming train trip and are now in fear of traveling and are trying to get some sort of self-assurance that it will be ok. I have also dealt with my hand of "backseat" investigators who feel they have the explanation of what happened before I even get on the scene. I do not condone making assumptions, but I also understand that people will and that I can not sensor them for doing so as they are free to speak their mind so long as it is in a respectful manner and within the rules. I will admit also that I have found some truth or at least useful leads sometimes in what has been said while other times I have wish they would have just kept quiet as it made a bad situation worse. Does it bother me in the moment - yes it does to a certain degree, but I also see why boards like this exist as well. Sometimes people need an outlet to express the questions they have to those who may have the knowledge or least will listen and try to understand or be able to share and contribute as well. 

I can't say if anyone here can say for a fact if anyone who posts or sees this board was on the train or knew someone on the train or not. That would also be making an assumption. I was on another board where they were posting about a train that was involved in a trespasser incident three weeks ago. People were making assumptions or speculating where it was and how it happened. Even as to why the incident took so long. When I went in to say one small comment on how it was handled well by the crew despite the circumstances, I was immediately corrected as to what I knew or didn't know as I "wasn't there." Well sorry to say I was. But people made an assumption and berated me for saying something. That lack of respect I find sometimes is why I do not post as much anymore. 

With all that said, I would hope this may serve as a healthy reminder that we all need to be respectful of the dialog that we have here as members and guests of this group. There are many people who are personally affected by this and do not need the added speculation that comes with any discussion regarding an incident. This group also has a wealth of experienced individuals with different backgrounds who may afford some perspective and education on reasons incidents like this may occur. Is it solid fact in this case, most likely not, but it may help other members to understand what the process is like in incidents like this and tone down some of the theories that come out of the woodwork. This is a forum and discussion is expected. We may all have different beliefs and varying levels of comfort in this discussion, however we are all people and should treat each other as such. We also need to remember that people just like us were involved in the unfortunate events that occurred. We all would like answers but the only facts that are going to come are going to come out over time and they will come from an official source (the NTSB in this case). I am not a moderator or admin of this forum, however I am a member and I hope that is respected by the leadership of this group as I am stating my open and honest opinions. All the views described above (and anytime I post here) are my own personally and not representative of any agency or entity. 

Emotions are understandably high right now. Let's keep that in mind and be respectful when we discuss and learn more about this unfortunate incident. Thank you.


----------



## nendee

When I was on the LSL there was a violent “bump” during the later evening. Was that possibly a switch gap? Do you think their might be a callout for suspension and track inspections?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

It only took 4 pages for outright catfighting to begin. Let's get back to talking about the derailment and stash all the fussing!


----------



## NSC1109

nendee said:


> When I was on the LSL there was a violent “bump” during the later evening. Was that possibly a switch gap? Do you think their might be a callout for suspension and track inspections?



There are many things that can be a “violent bump”. Minor track misalignment, a switch at speed, etc. There’s really no way to tell just from a “violent bump”. 



OlympianHiawatha said:


> It only took 4 pages for outright catfighting to begin. Let's get back to talking about the derailment and stash all the fussing!



I’m not sure where you see cat-fighting…Amtrak150 voiced their opinion as someone who has personal ties to the incident. It is a valid opinion. I responded stating that I am basing my theory on what happened on my experience with freight railroads and previous derailments including a picked switch. If you look at the railroading subreddit on Reddit, you’ll see more than a few people over there who share the same idea based on the location of the derailment and the way the cars derailed. There wasn’t any intention to be truly offensive on either side as far as I am aware.


----------



## Bierboy

More info from passengers and additional photos — At least 3 dead in Amtrak train derailment in Montana
We’ve traveled this route a couple of times…very sad.


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## Clackamas

I don't post on forum much, but I've been reading the last pages with great interest. I seen a interview from KRTV, Great falls , talking with a rider by the name of Wayne ??, Anyway there are some photos from the top or the side of the train as the interview proceeds, and if you look at the video at around 1:14 it shows pictures from the three Portland cars and what I find interesting is these cars are on their sides and before the facing points, I assumed then something happened to something before the train hit the switch points? Would anyone theorize then if a switch was picked, why are the last three cars not near the points? Would the thrashing around of the lounge or any other car cause the last three cars to derail and topple that far away from switch? Please know I am NOT an expert and NOT trying to cause trouble but would like to hear from someone with knowledge of railroading, I believe something happened before the train hit the switch, broken axle or wheel or even a bad rail?


----------



## Exvalley

OlympianHiawatha said:


> It only took 4 pages for outright catfighting to begin. Let's get back to talking about the derailment and stash all the fussing!


Actually, it’s been the opposite of cat fighting. The differences in opinion have been expressed extremely respectfully. I’m very proud of the discussion in this thread, especially when a tragedy such as this brings up such strong emotions.


----------



## lordsigma

I guess the first hope now is that there are no additional fatalities and that all who are injured make a full recovery and that the families that lost or have injured love ones are justly accommodated and taken care of. 

Secondly hope that the NTSB investigation can uncover the root cause and make recommendations to FRA that result in regulations to reduce the chances of a future similar accident. Obviously there is no way to prevent all accidents in any mode of transportation but traditionally we have always responded to tragic accidents with a push to identify areas we can improve the safety and prevent repeat occurrences and hopefully that will again occur here.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Charles785 said:


> Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?
> 
> First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?
> 
> And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?'
> 
> Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?
> 
> Thanks!


This may, or may not, help to explain switches and how they can cause derailments.








Switch Point Derailments: Is it the point or the wheel? (Part 1 of 2) - Interface Journal


By Gary Wolf No other type of derailment causes as much angst among railroaders as the switch point derailment. The switch point derailment can take several forms, but it generally boils down to a disagreement between the Mechanical Department that blames the switch point, and the Engineering...




interfacejournal.com


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Picture of the local fire department cut open the roof of a Superliner coach to gain access is online.









Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana


JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Montana that killed three people and left seven hospitalized Sunday, officials said.




apnews.com





That going to be a major fix to bring it back to service. If they don’t just scrap it on site.


----------



## WWW

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Picture of the local fire department cut open the roof of a Superliner coach to gain access is online.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana
> 
> 
> JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Montana that killed three people and left seven hospitalized Sunday, officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That going to be a major fix to bring it back to service. If they don’t just scrap it on site.


YES it is going to be a major fix to the 4 cars laying on their side - - -

But - - - the guys in the scratch and dent shop are going to have their hands full

With the limited number of train sets Amtrak has and the current government budget not likely.
Put them back on the rails spiff it up clean up the mess and perhaps make a new SSL skylight window.
Maybe on light traffic load days the consist will operate one or two cars less until they are back in service.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CNN now includes Portland in its reporting. 


> Eight cars from Amtrak's Empire Builder train 7/27 headed westbound from Chicago to Seattle/Portland derailed near Joplin, Montana, around 4 p.m. local time, injuring an undisclosed number of passengers, Amtrak said in a statement. The train consisted of two locomotives and 10 cars.











Amtrak train derails in remote part of Montana, killing at least 3 people | CNN


An Amtrak train traveling from Chicago to the Pacific Northwest derailed in a remote part of Montana on Saturday afternoon, killing three people and hospitalizing five others, authorities said.




www.cnn.com


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## John819

If you have ever been involved in any type of investigation (including transportation accidents) you know that the initial thoughts are often inaccurate or incomplete. Wait for the NTSB to come out with its findings.


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE AND REMINDER:

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Please pay special attention to those rules regarding copyright:



> *Copyright and Intellectual Property*
> Posted text, images and videos should be your content, content which you have permission to post, or content that you believe to be within the public domain. In the case of news articles, a “fair use” portion of an article maybe be posted. Fair use is a small portion of the article (a paragraph or two) and must be accompanied by a link to the original article. Articles copied and pasted in the entirely will either be removed or will be edited to conform to fair use.



Also.... please continue to be respectful of other members.

Thank you for your continued cooperation.


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## Just-Thinking-51

NTSB reports are not good as some people think they are. NTSB reports miss details that people in the particular practice have knowledge of, that would directly cause said accidents.


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## tricia

In case this hasn't already been posted, NY Times and Washington Post coverage: here and here.

Many of the comments on the WaPo article cite the long-deferred need for infrastructure spending.


----------



## Christy

We are supposed to take this train next weekend! Going to Glacier. We already booked flights this morning to Kalispell. Do any of you have experience with refunds from Amtrak in situations like this? Even if they got the trains running again by next weekend, we don't fell comfortable with it now. We're assuming that since it's a week away we can only get a voucher? Is that true even if your trip is cancelled? I have a feeling that a phone call would take forever.


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## lordsigma

Christy said:


> We are supposed to take this train next weekend! Going to Glacier. We already booked flights this morning to Kalispell. Do any of you have experience with refunds from Amtrak in situations like this? Even if they got the trains running again by next weekend, we don't fell comfortable with it now. We're assuming that since it's a week away we can only get a voucher? Is that true even if your trip is cancelled? I have a feeling that a phone call would take forever.


Sorry that you feel this way - train travel is very safe and much safer than getting in your car and driving yourself and this is a beautiful route but I can also understand your hesitance given what has occurred and given that the causes aren’t yet known. I would definitely do the call center rather than canceling online because they may override any cancellation fees given the circumstances - I usually take a voucher as I am a frequent Amtrak customer and don’t fly - but if you don’t plan to take a train again in the future as a result of this incident I’d definitely call and push for the cash refund. If they end up canceling the day outright you were on due to this incident you would get money back. They have a callback thing now where they can call you back when your at the front of the queue. Here’s the official policy Amtrak Train Ticket Refund and Cancellation Policy


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## Qapla

I can understand the hesitance to ride the train - but, at the same time, how often have we seen terrible car accidents and continued to drive down that same road without the same hesitancy?

These types of accidents are rare - I would still feel comfortable riding the train


----------



## George K




----------



## WWW

Christy said:


> We are supposed to take this train next weekend! Going to Glacier. We already booked flights this morning to Kalispell. Do any of you have experience with refunds from Amtrak in situations like this? Even if they got the trains running again by next weekend, we don't fell comfortable with it now. We're assuming that since it's a week away we can only get a voucher? Is that true even if your trip is cancelled? I have a feeling that a phone call would take forever.


After the NTSB people have made their inspection - the BNSF people will get to work fixing the rails so the freight & passenger service can resume.
As for Amtrak operating the full length of trains 7 & 8 (with 27 & 28 Portland sections) with a full consist and schedule can't answer that.

Your trip plans to Glacier via Kalispell is west of the accident site - - - I would not let this get in the way of travel plans perhaps made months in advance.
Amtrak could operate a stub section from SEA to Glacier and do a bus bridge around the accident site resuming service from Minot to Chicago.

Check with Amtrak for full details and any refunds vouchers *lordsigma* just posted Amtraks Refund Cancellation policy


----------



## jis

WWW said:


> Amtrak could operate a stub section from SEA to Glacier and do a bus bridge around the accident site resuming service from Minot to Chicago.


In the past setting up bus bridges along the High Line has been quite a challenge because of the dearth of available buses for such use in that part of Montana, specially when schools are in session. But miracles can still happen I suppose.


----------



## leacrane

Charles785 said:


> Some of the above posters have tried to do a good job explaining what might have caused the derailment, but for someone like me who doesn't know anything about railroad tracks and some of the jargon that goes with them, can someone try to totally illustrate what's being talked about when such things as 'switches' and 'picked' are mentioned?
> 
> First of all, what exactly does a switch do, and are they for some reason easily susceptible to being misaligned to the extent that no onboard crew member - or dispatcher - would notice?
> 
> And what does it mean to say 'a switch got picked?'
> 
> Are things called switches installed every few miles all the way up and down on mainlines and are they typical danger points?
> 
> Thanks!



Thanks for this post. I too get a bit frustrated by use of jargon by serious railfans that more casual riders like me don't understand. Sometimes it would be helpful and more inclusive to explain the jargon.
Thank you to those who have responded to the original question about the switches


----------



## wwchi

tim49424 said:


> Buddy of mine who is a conductor on the Empire Builder in the St. Cloud crew.


trust he is ok? Was he working on the train yesterday?


----------



## tim49424

wwchi said:


> trust he is ok? Was he working on the train yesterday?



Yes, he's okay. He doesn't work the area of the accident as his routes are either from St. Cloud to Winona or Minot.


----------



## wwchi

tim49424 said:


> Yes, he's okay. He doesn't work the area of the accident as his routes are either from St. Cloud to Winona or Minot.


Thanks - wasn't sure. Very glad to hear that nonetheless!


----------



## sublib

My son & I left MSP Friday night on this train. We were in 2730, Roomette 6 (at the tail) doing an out and back run to Glasgow, MT. We were about five minutes into our return trip on 8/28 when this happened. The last sleeper on 7/27 was close to full with lots of elderly folks, it appeared to me. The coach cars between our sleeper and the lounge were also near capacity. Strange feeling to see those photos. My thoughts go out to the injured and the families of those lost.


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## dlagrua

This is a very unfortunate accident on heavily traveled BNSF tracks. Our sincerest condolences to those that have lost loved ones. One can only speculate on the cause. I'll guess that it is more than likely, a problem with the tracks that sees mostly heavy slow freight, but Amtrak equipment is very old and wasn't built to last forever. I am anxious to read what the NTSB claims in their report.


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## John819

The NTSB conclusions often don't cover everything, but the information they uncover is there for analysis.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Clackamas said:


> I find interesting is these cars are on their sides and before the facing points, I assumed then something happened to something before the train hit the switch points? Would anyone theorize then if a switch was picked, why are the last three cars not near the points?



My theory - 
The track speed is 79 mph. The first car that picked the switch and began the derailment sent a whiplash type force through the train that caused the last car to turn over. The last car started turning connecting cars over until a coupler broke leaving those cars seperate from the rest of the train.


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## Trollopian

A _Washington Post_ reader from near (well, 80 miles, "near" by the standards of a sparsely-populated remote area) the crash had this to say. Lightly edited. Sobering. This is the reality of emergency response in an isolated area with few hospitals and already overwhelmed by COVID. Story is at https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/09/25/amtrak-train-derails-montana/ , behind a paywall but most of you can read a few free stories a month; reader comments are not copyrighted.

"I live in rural MT, about 80 miles northeast of the accident site. I’ve been an emergency services volunteer for over 40 years. A mass casualty incident is something that we train for, but are secure in the knowledge that, if one happens, it will quickly overwhelm the local resources. The county in which the accident occurred immediately called in fire and EMS units from the surrounding area but the response time was quite long because of the distances involved. Our local fire dep’t sent one truck, with extrication equipment, but it’s a 1 1/2 hour trip. Plus, the hospitals are full of Covid patients. Not a winning combination.

It could have been worse. The accident could have occurred in January, in a blizzard, with temps well below 0°F. Or, it could have been one of the several crude oil trains which pass through this area every day, starting a fire that could burn down an entire county."


----------



## Christy

WWW said:


> After the NTSB people have made their inspection - the BNSF people will get to work fixing the rails so the freight & passenger service can resume.
> As for Amtrak operating the full length of trains 7 & 8 (with 27 & 28 Portland sections) with a full consist and schedule can't answer that.
> 
> Your trip plans to Glacier via Kalispell is west of the accident site - - - I would not let this get in the way of travel plans perhaps made months in advance.
> Amtrak could operate a stub section from SEA to Glacier and do a bus bridge around the accident site resuming service from Minot to Chicago.
> 
> Check with Amtrak for full details and any refunds vouchers *lordsigma* just posted Amtraks Refund Cancellation policy


We are coming from Chicago. I would feel comfortable with a train trip in future but for right now we need to figure out other plans just in case


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Derailer before the switch.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Yep, they we’re definitely derailed prior to the switch. It also looks like the three cars that separated all stayed together and aren’t too far from the rest of the train.
Someone earlier mentioned that a tie replacement program might be going on in the area, which might be a factor. This could also be a broken rail or wheel/axel. Lot’s of possibilities now that picking the switch seems to not be an issue.
Hopefully we’ll get some good information soon.

I am also sending many thoughts and prayers to all that are involved.


----------



## Willbridge

John819 said:


> The NTSB conclusions often don't cover everything, but the information they uncover is there for analysis.


I was close to the story of a Dayliner wreck in Alberta and the investigation turned up numerous "small" details that clearly contributed to the severity of the accident. These did not make the mass media as the basic "cause" was quickly obvious and politicians took it from there.

Having had experience with responding to questions about accidents I don't mind fact-based speculation. That's a start on the process of responding to the need to prevent future accidents.

I also know how a whole organization can feel pain at the death or serious injury of a customer or a colleague. However, in countries where speculation is suppressed the same type of accidents keep happening.


----------



## JayPea

I have an EB trip coming up Friday morning as the first part of a loop trip (Spokane-Portland-Los Angeles-Chicago-Spokane). If the EB isn't running between Spokane and Portland by then, there are plenty of ways to get to Portland from Spokane. If, however, it is not going through to Spokane from Chicago on the return (scheduled to leave from Chicago on the 6th) that might be more problematic. Right now my thoughts are with the families of those affected by this tragedy and the members of the NTSB who are given the task of determining the cause of this derailment no matter how long it takes. To me whether the train runs is much less important.


----------



## NSC1109

The way the diner ended up and the way the points are facing are what’s curious to me…almost looks like the switch could’ve traveled under the train but I don’t know how the in-train forces would result in how the cars ended up.

The NTSB will examine the switch points and the rod that moves them for any sign of damage. I’m sure they’ll be asking BNSF for inspection records as well from the local TI.

At this point there could be any number of possibilities. The original photos definitely appeared like a picked switch but now there are too many unknowns to even begin to draw a conclusion. Time to let the NTSB do their job.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Derailer before the switch.


This is what I have been trying to point out, but many who are already invested in a theory have been blissfully ignoring it. So now I await NTSB's reconstruction of what happened, and am refraining from speculating about the sequence of events that left the train in its final configuration..


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> This is what I have been trying to point out, but many who are already invested in a theory have been blissfully ignoring it. So now I await NTSB's reconstruction of what happened, and am refraining from speculating about the sequence of events that left the train in its final configuration..



What were you pointing out? I wasn’t trying to ignore anything but I may have missed something.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

F900ElCapitan said:


> Yep, they we’re definitely derailed prior to the switch.



Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)


Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.


----------



## NSC1109

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.



The original photos that came out (or at least the ones that I saw) didn’t clearly show that it was on opposite ends of the switch so a lot of people, professional railroaders on Reddit included, believed it was a picked switch. The last photo shown makes the waters murkier. It still could be a picked switch, it could be a rolled rail (if MOW was working in the area and it hadnt been properly resecured), etc.

Just be thankful the casualty count was as low as it was…derailing at track speed like that had the potential for a lot more damage.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

NSC1109 said:


> The last photo shown makes the waters murkier. It still could be a picked switch, it could be a rolled rail (if MOW was working in the area and it hadnt been properly resecured), etc.



What was seen in the last photo?


----------



## F900ElCapitan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why do you say that? (I’m thinking you may have seen some photos that I haven’t.)





Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.


Exactly. The rear three cars are on the ground and their sides prior to the switch. There also appears to be a spreading of the rails prior to the switch, but that could be the quality of the photo.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Photo was taken down, copyrights. Clearly show the coach on there sides, and the rest of the train just past the track switch. The train stop half before and half after the switch.


Yeah. It is the fact that the rear capsized cars were to the east of the switch at CP Buelow East and the rest of the train came to a stop west of the switch is what caught my attention.

That is why it is worth waiting to hear from the NTSB. We do not have all the relevant facts available yet.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

jis said:


> Yeah. It is the fact that the rear capsized cars were to the east of the switch at CP Buelow East and the rest of the train came to a stop west of the switch is what caught my attention.


Same here.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakBlue said:


> This may, or may not, help to explain switches and how they can cause derailments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Switch Point Derailments: Is it the point or the wheel? (Part 1 of 2) - Interface Journal
> 
> 
> By Gary Wolf No other type of derailment causes as much angst among railroaders as the switch point derailment. The switch point derailment can take several forms, but it generally boils down to a disagreement between the Mechanical Department that blames the switch point, and the Engineering...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interfacejournal.com


That's an extremely helpful and detailed catalog of how track, switch, wheel, and wheelset defects can cause derailments.

Of course, as Jis has pointed out, this incident could just as easily be a derailment before the switch, which has its own catalog of possible causes.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was seen in the last photo?


I can’t get a clean link. Google images of “Amtrak Derailment Montana” Look for the picture of the guy on top of a flipped Superliner and in the background you can see the rest of the train on the ground flip over and the switch between them.

kiro7.com has a video with the picture in question.









At least 3 dead in Amtrak train derailment in Montana


JOPLIN, Mont. — At least three people were killed Saturday afternoon when an Amtrak train that runs between Seattle and Chicago derailed in north-central Montana, toppling several cars onto their sides, authorities said.




www.kiro7.com


----------



## jis

Let's try this as a link:



https://cmg-cmg-tv-10010-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/WxASIFxv3hySHxAdzNCq8mCdV00=/480x270/filters:quality(80)/arc-goldfish-cmg-thumbnails.s3.amazonaws.com/09-26-2021/t_8f059f7cf6a64d3ba20e4ed4d5feb61d_name_file_960x540_1200_v3_1_.jpg



Just click on the link to see the photo.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

This website has 11 pictures...

@Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.









3 people dead and 50 injured after Amtrak train derails in MT


Three people have dead and several are injured after an Amtrak's Empire Builder 7/27 train derailed near Joplin, Montana. The train derailed around 4pm MST. This is a developing story.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## crescent-zephyr

thanks for the links everyone. I hadn’t seen that photo. It actually supports my theory even more that the train picked the switch and the resulting forces turned over the last cars.

Just my theory of course. Also an earlier article had said the last cars went down an embankment, those photos show that is not the case so those cars just fell on their side. Still terrible but better than an embankment. 

Again, very very sad for all involved. Most likely The Portland SCA was in the back of the train and he or she would be most likely moving about the train.


----------



## NSC1109

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was seen in the last photo?



The last few Superliners are resting before the switch. The rest of the train is sitting past the switch. The points are lined for movement to the right track (not sure if it’s considered MT1 or MT2 up there) but the diner appears to be sitting around the left hand track. Now that could very easily just be because of the derailment so I won’t go further than that. But there are a lot of new questions now.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Let's try this as a link:
> 
> https://cmg-cmg-tv-10010-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/WxASIFxv3hySHxAdzNCq8mCdV00=/480x270/filters:quality(80)/arc-goldfish-cmg-thumbnails.s3.amazonaws.com/09-26-2021/t_8f059f7cf6a64d3ba20e4ed4d5feb61d_name_file_960x540_1200_v3_1_.jpg
> Just click on the link to see the photo.





AmtrakBlue said:


> This website has 11 pictures...
> 
> @Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 people dead and 50 injured after Amtrak train derails in MT
> 
> 
> Three people have dead and several are injured after an Amtrak's Empire Builder 7/27 train derailed near Joplin, Montana. The train derailed around 4pm MST. This is a developing story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Thanks for posting links to the photos. As mentioned previously, posting photos directly (that are not your own photos) may violate copyright laws.


----------



## jis

NSC1109 said:


> The last few Superliners are resting before the switch. The rest of the train is sitting past the switch. The points are lined for movement to the right track (not sure if it’s considered MT1 or MT2 up there) but the diner appears to be sitting around the left hand track. Now that could very easily just be because of the derailment so I won’t go further than that. But there are a lot of new questions now.


Indeed! A derailed car that hits a facing switch can go whichever way it happens to get grabbed by various rails destroying both tracks in the process. Very hard to reconstruct the events based on a single photo.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> This website has 11 pictures...
> 
> @Cal, if you look closely at the one of the Portland section, you can kind of make out a car between the two that are easily seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 people dead and 50 injured after Amtrak train derails in MT
> 
> 
> Three people have dead and several are injured after an Amtrak's Empire Builder 7/27 train derailed near Joplin, Montana. The train derailed around 4pm MST. This is a developing story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Still don’t see it.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Cal said:


> Still don’t see it.


Use the direct link JIS posted.

Spend a few minutes looking at everything. See the guy on the Superliner side, see the equipment in the background. Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch. Forward speed caused the train to stop around the switch. Deceleration from 70 mph takes space.


----------



## mvermeulen

Montana newspapers have articles including some aerial photos. For example, the Billings Gazette - has an article that shows where all the cars ended up - 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line


----------



## Cal

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Use the direct link JIS posted.
> 
> Spend a few minutes looking at everything. See the guy on the Superliner side, see the equipment in the background. Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch. Forward speed caused the train to stop around the switch. Deceleration from 70 mph takes space.


I'm not talking about that, I was talking about how the only Portland cars I see are the SSL, and the two revenue superliners. Wheres the third revenue superliner?


Edit: Oh well this video thumbnail shows three cars, but I still can't see them in the other pictures because of the angle.


----------



## 87YJ

Stopping that many tons from 70MPH..... well its a very long ride. If someone here knows the weight of the unit, bet someone here can come close to distance. JMHO


----------



## Fenu S

Here is the most clear photo.









Several dead, dozens injured in Amtrak train derailment along Hi-Line


Three people have died and there are numerous injuries after an Amtrak derailed in Liberty County along Montana's Hi-Line.




www.krtv.com




Posted in link form to avoid copyright issues.
(Whoops posted at same time as above poster!)


----------



## jebr

The _Star Tribune_ has some coverage of passengers stranded at St. Paul Union Depot: Amtrak passengers stranded at St. Paul Union Depot following deadly derailment

A couple of notes from the article:

Trains will not be running west of St. Paul until at least Tuesday.
It sounds like Amtrak is having staffing issues at Union Depot - despite the website stating that staff is available from 6:45 am - 10:30 pm, passengers at the depot are reporting no Amtrak staff are available to accommodate them.
Stranding passengers is a pretty poor move for Amtrak, both in terms of basic service standards and for public relations. If an airline was doing something similar, it'd be national news. At minimum Amtrak should be providing accommodations and alternate arrangements for those in transit as much as they can do so.


----------



## Qapla

jebr said:


> f an airline was doing something similar, it'd be national news. At minimum Amtrak should be providing accommodations and alternate arrangements for those in transit as much as they can do so.



If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.

Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.

Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

87YJ said:


> Stopping that many tons from 70MPH..... well its a very long ride. If someone here knows the weight of the unit, bet someone here can come close to distance. JMHO



Stopping a train from 70 mph gets a lot quicker when the wheels end up on the ground. Also a lot rougher for all involved.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Look at the space between and see the switch. Half the equipment before, half after the switch. So the derailment occurred before the switch.



The equipment in front of the switch did exactly what you’d expect equipment to do when picking a switch. The equipment afterwards did something very different. 

That quick deceleration, along with strange lateral forces could have caused the back cars to turn over before they derailed.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Qapla said:


> If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.
> 
> Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.
> 
> Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.


The language you quoted was talking about folks stranded in St. Paul, not on the Hi-line in MT.


----------



## jebr

Qapla said:


> If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.
> 
> Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.
> 
> Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.



The article refers to people being stranded in St. Paul because there aren't trains that go any further. While some passengers may be unable to be fully accommodated (if someone needs to get to one of the remote stations where there's no other transportation alternatives, the best Amtrak could easily offer is getting them somewhat close) there's no reason Amtrak can't find hotels in St. Paul or the surrounding metropolitan area for what appears to be a few dozen customers at most. Book a few rooms at a few different hotels near the airport if the downtown ones are full/too expensive and provide money for a taxi - there's plenty to do near the airport and a lot of hotel shuttles will go to both the airport and the Mall of America if people want to go to a restaurant or have something to do while they're waiting for the train to go again.

For those who are willing to take a non-train journey, the airlines go to a fair amount of the stops, and Jefferson Lines runs service a bit to the south if someone has family or friends that can pick them up further south. A customer going to Wolf Point may not find Glendive ideal, but it's a lot easier to get a family member to make the hour and a half drive down from there than trying to figure out how to get anywhere remotely close to Wolf Point - particularly if someone also is unable or adverse to flying on the small prop planes that fly into Wolf Point with EAS subsidies.


----------



## mvermeulen

crescent-zephyr said:


> The equipment in front of the switch did exactly what you’d expect equipment to do when picking a switch. The equipment afterwards did something very different.



My last post included a link that has an aerial photograph. It shows:
- Two engines and three cars on the right track ahead of the switch
- One car on the left track ahead of the switch, not connected to the first five
- Three cars just ahead of the switch, with the last on its side
- Three cars behind the switch and on their sides

I'm not sure those ahead of the switch did what was expected either.


----------



## Qapla

I re-read the comments and I see the St Paul area was being mentioned about finding accommodations for people stranded and I agree Amtrak should do what they can - sorry for the confusion.

On the other hand, I was just talking with a friend who lives in St Paul (we were on Zoom) who said that the COBID situation and the violence and social unrest has made the twin cities problematic to find good lodging ... I cannot say first hand - just trust she knows what she is talking about since she lives there.


----------



## Bierboy

mvermeulen said:


> Montana newspapers have articles including some aerial photos. For example, the Billings Gazette - has an article that shows where all the cars ended up - 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line


The captions with several of those photos are very inaccurate. Those three cars on their sides have obviously already been removed from the tracks during the cleanup and salvage operation. " ...three battered passenger cars that appeared to have rolled off the tracks..." WRONG.


----------



## jebr

Qapla said:


> On the other hand, I was just talking with a friend who lives in St Paul (we were on Zoom) who said that the COBID situation and the violence and social unrest has made the twin cities problematic to find good lodging ... I cannot say first hand - just trust she knows what she is talking about since she lives there.



As someone who also lives in St. Paul - there's still plenty of solid lodging options. The social unrest has largely subsided, and while violence has seen an uptick a lot of it is in areas where most tourists wouldn't be anyways. The COVID situation has caused some rooms to be booked up (and some hotels became homeless shelters) but on the whole there's still plenty of quality lodging available in the greater MSP area. Yes, a few of the good options may no longer be good options, and there's always been the low-quality hotels that every major metro area has, but there's still plenty of good options for Amtrak to offer stranded passengers. There's a whole cluster of decent hotels between the airport and the Mall of America along the light rail line that, while a bit more expensive, are generally clean and comfortable and I wouldn't expect safety issues at.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

mvermeulen said:


> My last post included a link that has an aerial photograph. It shows:
> - Two engines and three cars on the right track ahead of the switch
> - One car on the left track ahead of the switch, not connected to the first five
> - Three cars just ahead of the switch, with the last on its side
> - Three cars behind the switch and on their sides
> 
> I'm not sure those ahead of the switch did what was expected either.



I think that aerial photo is after cleanup and re-railing had begun.


----------



## Bierboy

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think that aerial photo is after cleanup and re-railing had begun.


Yes, it's very obvious with the cars laying side-by-side in alignment. As I mentioned above, several of the photo cutlines/captions are very misleading.


----------



## Dakota 400

Lots of interesting discussion about what might have caused this, the forces involved with a train going 79 mph at the time of the accident, and which cars were involved. But, not much discussion about what the passengers in those cars that turned on their side must have experienced. 

I have thought about this before this accident. Regardless of whatever car I might be riding when something like this happened, how could I escape with my train car ended up on its side? Being on the upper side of the car would pose different issues than if I was on the bottom side. 

What would I do? What should I do? There is no information in the safety pamphlet provided Amtrak passengers about such a situation other than how to remove a safety window in order to escape. That's fine, as long as my train car remain upright. But, if it doesn't......?


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> If an airliner had come down in that remote part of Montana, more than likely there would have been far less people to "Accommodate" because the death toll would have more than likely been much greater.
> 
> Amtrak cannot invent places to accommodate people in a place that is so sparse that it took one of the firetrucks an hour and a half to get there due to the remoteness of the crash site.
> 
> Due to the remote area, the COVID crisis in those states and other factors, it sounds like Amtrak is doing what they can.


I think the original poster was talking about people being stranded in St. Paul when the next day's train arrived there. Indeed, given that the EB Builder comes into St. Paul around 10 PM, if I were riding that train (not the one that derailed, the one immediately following it) I would hope that I would get accommodation I were expecting to go further west and the train was cancelled while I was riding it. A night in a hotel and an onward plane or bus ticket would be perfectly reasonable. 

I will admit that it would be a harder job to accommodate the people on the derailed train, but I would definitely make that an "all hands on deck" exercise, which, for all I know, that's how they're treating it. No worse publicity that having news reports about 140 survivors of a train crash being stranded in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## jis

And the folks traveling by next day’s train are stuck in Shelby and Minot or some such too. What a mess!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Lots of interesting discussion about what might have caused this, the forces involved with a train going 79 mph at the time of the accident, and which cars were involved. But, not much discussion about what the passengers in those cars that turned on their side must have experienced.
> 
> I have thought about this before this accident. Regardless of whatever car I might be riding when something like this happened, how could I escape with my train car ended up on its side? Being on the upper side of the car would pose different issues than if I was on the bottom side.
> 
> What would I do? What should I do? There is no information in the safety pamphlet provided Amtrak passengers about such a situation other than how to remove a safety window in order to escape. That's fine, as long as my train car remain upright. But, if it doesn't......?



These are difficult things to think about. On the sunset limited incident, passengers were trapped underwater with no way to escape.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> These are difficult things to think about. On the sunset limited incident, passengers were trapped underwater with no way to escape.



I remember that. That accident is what has prompted that thought in the back of my mind on every Amtrak that I have taken since then. And, now, even not on that train, once again.


----------



## Cal

3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line


At least three people have died after an Amtrak train that runs between Seattle and Chicago derailed Saturday afternoon in north-central Montana.




billingsgazette.com





This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line
> 
> 
> At least three people have died after an Amtrak train that runs between Seattle and Chicago derailed Saturday afternoon in north-central Montana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> billingsgazette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.
> 
> View attachment 24577



Ok so the track clearly widened, some mentioned that in other photos but was hard to see. Was that from the forces from the train derailing at the switch? Or where the derailment started? 

Also... did the Portland cars completely flip over!?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The three cars at the end of the train got destroyed by the railroad derailment service. All of the windows are smashed out, the roofs are crushed. Look like they roll them out of the way. No respect for the equipment at all. They do this crap to freight train derailment too. No respect for the cargo. Takes just a little effort to avoid damage the cargo/railcars, but no it a speed thing. With the NTSB one thinks that a bypass track getting built. However at least you can tell where the train started to derail. No where close to the switch.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Cal said:


> 3 dead in Amtrak Empire Builder derailment on Montana Hi-Line
> 
> 
> At least three people have died after an Amtrak train that runs between Seattle and Chicago derailed Saturday afternoon in north-central Montana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> billingsgazette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article has some great photos of the cleanup and how battered up the track got due to the derailment, albeit with incorrect captions.
> 
> View attachment 24577


This photo is excellent in showing significant track damage prior to the switch. I (as I’m sure many on here have experienced) have been on a train when it went into emergency, it takes quite a while to get it stopped, not as far as a freight, but still significant and much more than from the switch to the engines.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also... did the Portland cars completely flip over!?


Yes.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

As for the passenger who are at station waiting for there train. Amtrak SOP is “No alternative available.” This is a recurring issue that I despise.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The three cars at the end of the train got destroyed by the railroad derailment service. All of the windows are smashed out, the roofs are crushed. Look like they roll them out of the way. No respect for the equipment at all. They do this crap to freight train derailment too. No respect for the cargo. Takes just a little effort to avoid damage the cargo/railcars, but no it a speed thing. With the NTSB one thinks that a bypass track getting built. However at least you can tell where the train started to derail. No where close to the switch.


To me it appears those cars did derail and fell to their sides during the derailment. The smashed windows and doors are due to emergency services doing their job and rescuing passengers, as a few pictures out there have shown. There is NO way they would have tipped those cars over with people in them, that would be a level of negligence that is beyond comprehension.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Bierboy said:


> The captions with several of those photos are very inaccurate. Those three cars on their sides have obviously already been removed from the tracks during the cleanup and salvage operation. " ...three battered passenger cars that appeared to have rolled off the tracks..." WRONG.


I don’t see any fact in your statement. Those cars were definitely separated and rolled during the derailment. There are a few photos of emergency personnel working on those cars to rescue passengers. There is no way those cars would have been purposely tipped with people inside.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The Portland sleeper and two coaches did roll on to there side (flipped) during the derailment. Then the Railroad Derailment Service roll them over again to get them away from the tracks. The damage show was not at the same level when the fire department was removing people. The Railroad Derailment Service destroyed those Superliner. The actual derailment damage may or may not been repairable.


----------



## Bierboy

F900ElCapitan said:


> I don’t see any fact in your statement. Those cars were definitely separated and rolled during the derailment. There are a few photos of emergency personnel working on those cars to rescue passengers. There is no way those cars would have been purposely tipped with people inside.


I never said they were tipped with people inside. When they use the word “rolled” that infers more than just tipping onto their sides. Don’t put words in my mouth.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The Portland sleeper and two coaches did roll over during the derailment. Then the Railroad Derailment Service roll them over again to get them away from the tracks. The damage show was not at the same level when the fire department was removing people. The Railroad Derailment Service destroyed those Superliner. The actual derailment damage may or may not been repairable.



Ok that’s what I was wondering if they had completely flipped over.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

F900ElCapitan said:


> I don’t see any fact in your statement. Those cars were definitely separated and rolled during the derailment. There are a few photos of emergency personnel working on those cars to rescue passengers. There is no way those cars would have been purposely tipped with people inside.


My guess is thinking “roll” as in rollover the roof onto the other side which is what is shown in the picture. The rollover occurred, after everyone was removed, during the cleanup.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Bierboy said:


> I never said they were tipped with people inside. When they use the word “rolled” that infers more than just tipping onto their sides. Don’t put words in my mouth.


Ok, I see what you are saying. I read that you were saying that they hadn’t rolled on their sides during the derailment, my apologies. We’ll have to disagree about the definition of rolling. Those cars definitely rolled 90 degrees onto their sides during the derailment. But I now also see that they were rolled again from their original position to their current position to get them out of the way.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

Its disheartening to see the injuries and loss of life to those who were aboard. I watched a press conference that explained how many volunteers had pitched in to help, thats the best side of Americans to be sure. I have no hesitation to ride the train and am scheduled to go from CHI to SEA this Thursday. ( edit if need be moderator). I am wondering if any here could guess at a regular resumption of service or a bus bridge? The other parts of my trip will be on the Coast Starlight and California Zephyr, so Id need to get to Seattle ( on a flight ) and book that asap. Right now 5pm sunday, Amtrak said the system is down and she can't tell me what trains have been officially cancelled yet. I am back in the Automatic call back system again, and its not too bad actually! 
I know others are wondering these same things but most so far have been talking about trips that are a bit later than mine this week. 

Thanks for best guess, intuition and all the combined wisdom here, TY!


----------



## rrdude

F900ElCapitan said:


> Ok, I see what you are saying. I read that you were saying that they hadn’t rolled on their sides during the derailment, my apologies. We’ll have to disagree about the definition of rolling. Those cars definitely rolled 90 degrees onto their sides during the derailment. But I now also see that they were rolled again from their original position to their current position to get them out of the way.


So Hulcher, (or whomever the Cleanup company is) “rolled over three Suplerliners, in a straight line, still coupled together”? Doesn’t seem practical, (except to clear wreckage in a hurry…but they are are all lined up so straight)









Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana


JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Mo...




www.wellandtribune.ca





Photo from Welland Tribune.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

rrdude said:


> So Hulcher, (or whomever the Cleanup company is) “rolled over three Suplerliners, in a straight line, still coupled together”? Doesn’t seem practical, (except to clear wreckage in a hurry…but they are are all lined up so straight)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana
> 
> 
> JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Mo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wellandtribune.ca


I agree and the fact they are so straight is what stumped me too. But if you look closely at the later pics when the tractor cranes are in view, the cars are laying with their trucks away from the tracks instead of next to them that was shown in the rescue pics.


----------



## caravanman

Very sad and shocking news. One thing as an overseas resident that seems a positive, if one can forgive such a term at this point, is that the coaches seem to be very strongly constructed to withstand such an accident. I have in mind many pics from other countries of much more damaged rolling stock?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Irelandvegas65 said:


> I am wondering if any here could guess at a regular resumption of service or a bus bridge?



You should be Ok.


----------



## rrdude

F900ElCapitan said:


> I agree and the fact they are so straight is what stumped me too. But if you look closely at the later pics when the tractor cranes are in view, the cars are laying with their trucks away from the tracks instead of next to them that was shown in the rescue pics.


“With the trucks AWAY from the tracks” is what led me to speculate that they rolled, 2/3 over, and, as you mention, it does’t jib with other photos showing rescue teams, with the trucks nearer and facing tracks, so, “they must have been rolled” by contractors….


----------



## Qapla

jebr said:


> As someone who also lives in St. Paul - there's still plenty of solid lodging options.



Since I do not live anywhere near St Paul I will defer to your knowledge of the area - I was only going by what my friend told me just as I was typing my post ... she also lives in ST Paul.

~~~~~~

On another thought - one of the news videos I watched (one of the above links) had some interviews with people who had been on the train. One guy was in one of the cars that fell over.

I would love to hear more information on how the survivors are doing before I worry about why the train derailed


----------



## Exvalley

Assuming the cars are taken out of operation for quite some time (or forever), will there be a long lasting impact on operations? They aren’t exactly making new Superliners.


----------



## Cal

rrdude said:


> “With the trucks AWAY from the tracks” is what led me to speculate that they rolled, 2/3 over, and, as you mention, it does’t jib with other photos showing rescue teams, with the trucks nearer and facing tracks, so, “they must have been rolled” by contractors….


Nope, the cars originally were on their side right next to the tracks, trucks closer to the tracks. That is why the caption is a bit off as it is misleading. 



Exvalley said:


> Assuming the cars are taken out of operation for quite some time (or forever), will there be a long lasting impact on operations? They aren’t exactly making new Superliners.


Well it certainly wont' help the SSL shortage.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

This article has some info from passengers.









3 dead, over 50 injured in Amtrak train derailment


Three people died and many were injured in an Amtrak train derailment in Montana.




abcnews.go.com


----------



## Qapla

This video has some interesting comments - it does not seem to actually be "Live" - but, it was recorded live


----------



## City of Miami

caravanman said:


> the coaches seem to be very strongly constructed



Through many accidents over their 40 years they have shown themselves to be very well engineered, much better it seems than the single level cars. Just think of all the cars twisted akimbo we saw in Philly for example.


----------



## Cal

City of Miami said:


> Through many accidents over their 40 years they have shown themselves to be very well engineered, much better it seems than the single level cars. Just think of all the cars twisted akimbo we saw in Philly for example.


Well that was also on a curve going too fast, I wonder how the superliners would fare in a situation like that.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Burns651 said:


> After the Feb. 2009 Colgan Air crash, 5 people have died in crashes aboard regularly scheduled commercial (non-sightseeing, non-charter) flights in the US. In the same period with Amtrak through this Montana crash (assuming the 3 killed figure holds), 21 people aboard have died in crashes. And that's with some 99% fewer passenger miles as planes.


Commercial airplanes and passenger trains are _both_ incredibly safe compared to trucks, pickups, automobiles, motorcycles, and bicycles. In Montana the pandemic has apparently killed more than all forms of transportation combined so if someone can get over that risk the rest is just a rounding error.



caravanman said:


> Very sad and shocking news. One thing as an overseas resident that seems a positive, if one can forgive such a term at this point, is that the coaches seem to be very strongly constructed to withstand such an accident. I have in mind many pics from other countries of much more damaged rolling stock?


Many industrialized democracies try to ensure passenger trains never crash while in the US we try to make them more crashworthy. In my view Japan is the gold standard for passenger rail safety but lopsided indemnity agreements and a failure to monitor and prevent domestic terrorism complicates the issue here.



NW cannonball said:


> North edge of nowhere, safety net in place. Medevac helos available. Good.


Although potentially helpful in a desolate location during a pandemic there is a dark side to Medevac.


----------



## DaveW

I had to check when they returned daily service since the covid 3 times per week schedule. It started May 24 so there are 5 Empire Builders on the tracks going both directions.

As far as the Union station in St. Paul, westbound is scheduled to arrive at 10:03 pm and depart at 10:27 pm. There usually is not much going on around there that late at night.


----------



## Cal

Devil's Advocate said:


> Commercial airplanes and passenger trains are _both_ incredibly safe compared to trucks, pickups, automobiles, motorcycles, and bicycles. In Montana the pandemic has apparently killed more than all forms of transportation combined so if someone can get over that risk the rest is just a rounding error.
> 
> 
> Many industrialized democracies try to ensure passenger trains never crash while in the US we try to make them more crashworthy. In my view Japan is the gold standard for passenger rail safety but lopsided indemnity agreements and a failure to monitor and prevent domestic terrorism complicates the issue here.
> 
> 
> Although potentially helpful in a desolate location during a pandemic there is a dark side to Medevac.



Wendover Productions (and his other channel, Half as Interesting) is a great channel. I actually got into him by seeing his video "Why trains suck in America".


----------



## Bierboy

AmtrakBlue said:


> My guess is thinking “roll” as in rollover the roof onto the other side which is what is shown in the picture. The rollover occurred, after everyone was removed, during the cleanup.


Exactly.


----------



## WWW

Exvalley said:


> Assuming the cars are taken out of operation for quite some time (or forever), will there be a long lasting impact on operations? They aren’t exactly making new Superliners.


This may very well change the number of cars in the consist and possibly the frequency of daily operation of the EB
and the Portland section trains 27 & 28 change to a different consist requiring a train change at Spokane
There is only one SSL per EB train set consist with the 3 Portland cars - no SSL car on the SEA - Spokane segment.


----------



## jis

City of Miami said:


> Through many accidents over their 40 years they have shown themselves to be very well engineered, much better it seems than the single level cars. Just think of all the cars twisted akimbo we saw in Philly for example.


There is a huge difference between hitting a solidly planted pole at 125mph sideways and merely falling off the track at something under 79mph though.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> There is a huge difference between hitting a solidly planted pole at 125mph sideways and merely falling off the track at something under 79mph though.



Wasn’t there some telescoping in that wreck? Or has my memory failed yet again.


----------



## timjimbob

Just road that route 2 weeks ago. What caught my eye was a lot of railroad tyes being replaced in that area of Montana.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

We were on HWY 2 between Havre and Shelby this summer as well.


----------



## NW cannonball

My personal summary of this incident now is --
*A* - what happened? Nobody knows. The NTSB is doing a seriously thorough investigation. Lotsa speculation.
*B* - What damage? 3 pax died, 5 still in hospital, out of about 150 souls on board. Minor injuries and inconveniences -- nobody knows but some may be serious for the victims
*C* - Damage to the railroads -
*a* - Amtrak -- damage to reputation, damage and loss of rolling stock.
*b* - BNSF -- damage to reputation, loss of use of a major rail line already near capacity account of "post-covid recovery container revenue", and the *trivial *cost of fixing the track
*D* - Local emergency response to the accident. Amazingly good. (Not amazingly, just reasonable people prepared for any accident where they are an hour or more from any level trauma center)
I've been looking at Montana local news sources and the previously posted link to the Montana governor's presso. Makes sense to me. When your nearest neighbor is 20 miles away, and the nearest trauma and coronary care centers are a few hundred miles away -- you will be glad to pay taxes to have a few medevac helos on standby statewide.

I've done MSP - SEA - MSP more than 6 times in the last 30 years. And a few part-air part-Amtrak trips. And my (then) 20-someting daughter told me (then) about talking with a dead-heading Amtrak crew who knew where the pronghorn colonies were.
Riding Amtrak 7-8 has been a small, but significant part of my life


----------



## sporter323

Amtrak Apple said:


> Oh, wow. I feel a little weird thinking about this because if I was on this train, I'd have been in the cars that were still upright. (I'm along the Seattle route.) Yikes.


I was due to be on the train Tuesday, in a sleeper car.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Wasn’t there some telescoping in that wreck? Or has my memory failed yet again.


None. The first car of the train hit a catenary pole broadside at over 100mph and essentially wrapped around it and was flung off as essentially a ball of metal. Amazingly a few people did survive in it. Almost any car will do that since they do not really have much buff strength on the side walls. PRR built their catenary poles like brick shithouses apparently.

Even in the Chase collision at some speed above 120mph, the only Amfleet that was destroyed was the one that was broadsided. The rest of the train just jackknifed. There was no telescoping. Of course, the lead AEM-7 was demolished down to its floor frame and tossed off the track into the bushes. They had to go looking for it.


----------



## sporter323

sporter323 said:


> I was due to be on the train Tuesday, in a sleeper car.


I feel so bad for the families losing their loved ones.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

WWW said:


> This may very well change the number of cars in the consist and possibly the frequency of daily operation of the EB
> and the Portland section trains 27 & 28 change to a different consist requiring a train change at Spokane
> There is only one SSL per EB train set consist with the 3 Portland cars - no SSL car on the SEA - Spokane segment.


I don't think that the frequency of the route can change due to the requirement for daily service in the aid bill.

As far as the consist of the EB, not much can change there either. As I previously mentioned, the Portland section can not have less than two coaches as long as it retains baggage service (unless a second baggage car was added). The Seattle section has often been running with only one coach as it is. The SSL could be theoretically replaced with another food service car on one consist, but I don't think it's likely that a route that long would run without some sort of lounge. As to sleepers, the Portland section only has one sleeper, although it may be possible to remove a sleeper from the Seattle section. However, given that the cars are not specialized to the route and the various complexities of the EB consist I just listed, if consists need to be shortened somewhere I think it's more likely to occur on another route.


----------



## NW cannonball

Link to Amtrak.com now








Amtrak Advisory | Empire Builder Derailment in Joplin Montana







www.amtrak.com


----------



## west point

How fast and how far the train went from 79.2 MPH to zero is very important. Since the locos are only a few hundred feet west of the signals / turnout that will determine if a switch was picked or not. If the train already started to slow before the turnout that is one answer. The distance beyond switch that train slowed will determine position of each car.. If after that is another different answer. 

Why is the track east of the rear car appears to be out alignment will need the answer to how far the loco went before starting to slow. Where east does the first track damage show ?. then you have to determine if derailment actually caused track east of incident to buckle. Examination of the cross ties for damage will show where the accident actually started. That will be some calculation that rear cars started to derail after a leading car actually derailed and cars behind started before reaching that point. Trucks may show which car started the derailment as well. Too early to say a picked switch until the above information is found.

All in all the whole dynamics of this incident are going to be very complicated.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> None. The first car of the train hit a catenary pole broadside at over 100mph and essentially wrapped around it and was flung off as essentially a ball of metal. Amazingly a few people did survive in it. Almost any car will do that since they do not really have much buff strength on the side walls. PRR built their catenary poles like brick shithouses apparently.
> 
> Even in the Chase collision at some speed above 120mph, the only Amfleet that was destroyed was the one that was broadsided. The rest of the train just jackknifed. There was no telescoping. Of course, the lead AEM-7 was demolished down to its floor frame and tossed off the track into the bushes. They had to go looking for it.



Yeah, what happened with the first car doesn’t count. That was... extreme. You can’t build a car to withstand that! 

Good to know the amfleets didn’t telescope, I must have been confusing them with another, non-Amtrak wreck.


----------



## John819

The easiest way to get more Superliner cars to the resumed EB is to change the consist on the CL from Superliners to Amfleet IIs and Viewliners. That would free up 10 cars.


----------



## Rover

Amtrak train that derailed was going just under speed limit


JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — An Amtrak train that derailed in rural Montana over the weekend was going just under the speed limit at about 75 mph (121 kph) when it went off the track along a gradual curve, killing three people and possibly ejecting passengers, U.S.




apnews.com





_Trevor Fossen was first on the scene. The Joplin resident was on a dirt road near the tracks Saturday when he saw “a wall of dust” hundreds of feet high. “I started looking at that, wondering what it was and then I saw the train had tipped over and derailed,” said Fossen, who called 911 and started trying to get people out. He called his brother to bring ladders for people who couldn’t get down after exiting through the windows of cars resting on their sides.

Passenger Jacob Cordeiro from Rhode Island was traveling with his father to Seattle to celebrate his college graduation. “I was in one of the front cars and we got badly jostled, thrown from one side of the train to the other,” he told MSNBC. He said the train car left the tracks near a switch where two tracks narrow to one but did not fall over._

I hope that I never come across such a scene in my life. But if I did, I hope that I could be of some help.


----------



## dgvrengineer

west point said:


> How fast and how far the train went from 79.2 MPH to zero is very important. Since the locos are only a few hundred feet west of the signals / turnout that will determine if a switch was picked or not. If the train already started to slow before the turnout that is one answer. The distance beyond switch that train slowed will determine position of each car.. If after that is another different answer.
> 
> Why is the track east of the rear car appears to be out alignment will need the answer to how far the loco went before starting to slow. Where east does the first track damage show ?. then you have to determine if derailment actually caused track east of incident to buckle. Examination of the cross ties for damage will show where the accident actually started. That will be some calculation that rear cars started to derail after a leading car actually derailed and cars behind started before reaching that point. Trucks may show which car started the derailment as well. Too early to say a picked switch until the above information is found.
> 
> All in all the whole dynamics of this incident are going to be very complicated.


 You are right. It could have been a heat kink. It was over 90 degrees the day of the derailment after having been very cold for several days. The engineer may have seen the kink and tried to stop. Got slowed down but couldn't stop. This is potentially another cause.


----------



## John819

We will find out a lot when they review the event recorder.


----------



## VentureForth

48 hours in, and I'm really late to this party, and no, I haven't (yet) gone through all previous 211 posts. 

My 2 cents. I highly doubt that the point was picked. Based on the Aerial photo in this Daily Mail article, there is significant track damage and toppled rail cars BEFORE the switch. I can't see how the momentum of the train would have been able to derail and topple three cars several hundred feet before the switch. The rail is also bowed out before the switch.

That being said, one car is shown completely disconnected from the rest of the train, upright on the siding. 

There is a signal at the entry to that switch, and a soft curve leading up to it. Could it have been red and the engineer slammed on the brakes at the last moment? Still, emergency in itself wouldn't be strong enough for trailing cars to be jack knifed off the rails. Maybe a combination of issues surrounding that siding entrance.

The report will be compelling reading, for sure.

I'm just happy that the Daily Mail corrected their articles stating that the NTSB owned the tracks.


----------



## Ziv

If you have to be stuck somewhere, Shelby is a pleasant little city. In any season other than November through April! ;-)
Seriously, though, Shelby is nice. It is no Whitefish with a larger assortment of cafes, brewpubs and shops, but it is a nice place for a 1 or 2 day layover. A longer stay would probably get boring unless you rent a car and go to Glacier Park. Going to the Sun Highway doesn't usually close until the second or third week of October so the drive would be beautiful!



jis said:


> And the folks traveling by next day’s train are stuck in Shelby and Minot or some such too. What a mess!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

VentureForth said:


> That being said, one car is shown completely disconnected from the rest of the train, upright on the siding.


I believe you are referring to a picture that was taken after the crews began moving the cars around. Since the front of the train was on a different track the the rest, it makes sense that a car was disconnected by the recovery crew and moved along on the adjourning track.


----------



## cocojacoby

There are reports on other sites that the train had a deadheading Superliner Lounge on the rear at one point. That would mean the possible loss of two SLLs in this incident. Still not sure about this however.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cocojacoby said:


> There are reports on other sites that the train had a deadheading Superliner Lounge on the rear at one point. That would mean the possible loss of two SLLs in this incident. Still not sure about this however.


The deadhead SSL was taken off in either WI or MN for, ironically, emergency response training.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

AmtrakBlue said:


> The deadhead SSL was taken off in either WI or MN for, ironically, emergency response training.



Ironically is a understatement. Both on the shortage of SSL equipment, and they drop one off for training.


----------



## frequentflyer

jis said:


> None. The first car of the train hit a catenary pole broadside at over 100mph and essentially wrapped around it and was flung off as essentially a ball of metal. Amazingly a few people did survive in it. Almost any car will do that since they do not really have much buff strength on the side walls. PRR built their catenary poles like brick shithouses apparently.
> 
> Even in the Chase collision at some speed above 120mph, the only Amfleet that was destroyed was the one that was broadsided. The rest of the train just jackknifed. There was no telescoping. Of course, the lead AEM-7 was demolished down to its floor frame and tossed off the track into the bushes. They had to go looking for it.



Thanks for the info. I remember that day.

In the Chase incident, lets be thankful that first Amfleet coach was empty. As regards it crumpling like an empty coke can, Decelerating from 120 mph to 0 mph in an instant may have something to do with it. Much respect to the Budd engineers who designed the cars on a drafting board and t squares. 

Remember seeing pictures of the lead AEM7, the energy dissipated is beyond human comprehension.


----------



## jis

Yes. I remember the Chase collision day like it was yesterday.


----------



## frequentflyer

I think this story hits so many of us, because of the fatalities. There have been many Amtrak derailments that looked worse, yet no fatalities.

The EB derailed in the area back in the late 80s or early 90s when it hit a dump truck at speed. I do not call recall if there were fatalities.

Many of us have ridden Superliners and have been jostled left and right, up and down, hearing loud banging noises and screeches as the wheels interacts with the track, and the cars with each other. Derailment is in the back of our minds, but it stays back there. Incidents like this brings that thought to the forefront of our minds for a while the next time we are on a train. We hope that thought fades soon.


----------



## Dave Van

Riding coast to coast often until the COVID thing hit.......I have ridden lots of rough track. One trip on the SWC was really rough in the New Mexico region. While I was in the dining car we had LOTS of swaying and loud rail noise....but most just ignored it. Then we had the hardest bump, sway and bang I have ever been part of in 60 years of train riding. What scared me was the CREW yelled and a few dropped to the floor. I figured we were on the ground..but we kept going at the 35 or so we were going. I know I don't want to do it again!!!

Prayers to all involved in the accident. Passengers, crew and all those, many volunteers, that responded in such a rural area. A sad event and I hope they find the reason.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

VentureForth said:


> There is a signal at the entry to that switch, and a soft curve leading up to it. Could it have been red and the engineer slammed on the brakes at the last moment? Still, emergency in itself wouldn't be strong enough for trailing cars to be jack knifed off the rails. Maybe a combination of issues surrounding that siding


If there was a red signal at the beginning of the siding then there would have been at least one if not two approach signals preceding it so the engineer would have had ample time to slow the train down, I think in most cases you have to be down to at least 30 mph at the signal before the stop signal. So if is unlikely that a red suddenly appeared.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> If there was a red signal at the beginning of the siding then there would have been at least one if not two approach signals preceding it so the engineer would have had ample time to slow the train down, I think in most cases you have to be down to at least 30 mph at the signal before the stop signal. So if is unlikely that a red suddenly appeared.


Does PTC force a slowdown when approaching a red signal?


----------



## basketmaker

Since I live very near to both BNSF (Brush Sub) and UP (Greeley Sub) I keep both of their emergency numbers in my phone. Also, Amtrak's and all EMS services in my neighborhood. 




(Picture by the Toronto Star)


----------



## sporter323

Ziv said:


> If you have to be stuck somewhere, Shelby is a pleasant little city. In any season other than November through April! ;-)
> Seriously, though, Shelby is nice. It is no Whitefish with a larger assortment of cafes, brewpubs and shops, but it is a nice place for a 1 or 2 day layover. A longer stay would probably get boring unless you rent a car and go to Glacier Park. Going to the Sun Highway doesn't usually close until the second or third week of October so the drive would be beautiful!


I spent all day yesterday getting flights, etc. I was due to ride the train on Tuesday from Pasco, WA to Toldeo, OH to see family. I am very nervous flying with COVID everywhere.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

John819 said:


> The easiest way to get more Superliner cars to the resumed EB is to change the consist on the CL from Superliners to Amfleet IIs and Viewliners. That would free up 10 cars.


What's the reason for keeping Superliners on the CL to begin with?



AmtrakBlue said:


> The deadhead SSL was taken off in either WI or MN for, ironically, emergency response training.





Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ironically is a understatement.


It's really just a coincidence but these days the terms seem to be used interchangeably.



basketmaker said:


> (Picture by the Toronto Star)


Where I live those emergency numbers are not answered by actual railroads and instead go to highway patrol, who seem to have no idea what to do about it and may not have jurisdiction to do anything. My guess is that they write down what they _think_ you've said and then relay it to someone else like a clumsy game of telephone. That being said you bring up a good point about adding emergency numbers to your phone ahead of time when everything is clear and calm.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> What's the reason for keeping Superliners on the CL to begin with?


Viewliner and Amfleet shortage. Perhaps that doesn't apply any more.


----------



## sublib

crescent-zephyr said:


> Engineer probably didn’t even dump the air, the cars did that for him when they separated. Anyone know what the track speed is there?





crescent-zephyr said:


> thanks for the links everyone. I hadn’t seen that photo. It actually supports my theory even more that the train picked the switch and the resulting forces turned over the last cars.
> 
> Just my theory of course. Also an earlier article had said the last cars went down an embankment, those photos show that is not the case so those cars just fell on their side. Still terrible but better than an embankment.
> 
> Again, very very sad for all involved. Most likely The Portland SCA was in the back of the train and he or she would be most likely moving about the train.




Sleeping car attendant in 2730 was Alberto. My son and I were in 2730 from MSP to Glasgow, MT on Saturday. We got on 8/28 heading east five to ten minutes before this accident. I asked about Alberto when we were at breakfast Sunday morning. Word from the dining car attendant on 8/28 was that Alberto was fine. I think he is visible in one of the numerous videos that I've seen of the accident site.


----------



## KiraPi

I'm supposed to be on this train from Seattle to Chicago a week from Thursday. Does anyone know about how long it'll be before the route is back on it's tracks? I can't handle a long bus ride and would like to make arrangements as soon as I can. I can barely handle a short bus ride, to be honest. 
I'm thinking that the severity of the accident might mean it's going to be longer that a week and a half for things to be back. 
I feel awful for asking all things considered.


----------



## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> What's the reason for keeping Superliners on the CL to begin with?


If they don't want to cut capacity, SCA staffing may be an issue since the Viewliner sleepers don't hold as many people.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Does PTC force a slowdown when approaching a red signal?


Yes. PTC is supposed to enforce a safe stop before passing the red signal, if it is working as intended. The proposed scenario is highly unlikely.


----------



## basketmaker

87YJ said:


> 3,000feet past a switch, makes you wonder.


Actually the last GPS update of the lead locomotive stop moving on 800' beyond the switch.


----------



## sublib

Cal said:


> Yes.


I'm going with NO. If you go back and look at photos taken the day of the incident, the last three cars are on their right side with trucks facing the tracks. I think they were rolled on Sunday... with the roofs facing the tracks.


----------



## NSC1109

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> If there was a red signal at the beginning of the siding then there would have been at least one if not two approach signals preceding it so the engineer would have had ample time to slow the train down, I think in most cases you have to be down to at least 30 mph at the signal before the stop signal. So if is unlikely that a red suddenly appeared.



Not necessarily. On BNSF it goes Clear, Approach Medium (Advance Approach on the eastern roads), Approach, and then stop. There could be any number of scenarios that would trigger a sudden “stop” indication such as a broken rail, a signal failure, etc.



jis said:


> Yes. PTC enforces a safe stop before passing the red signal. The proposed scenario is highly unlikely.



Again, not necessarily. PTC is still very much a work in progress. We just had a train run through a red signal on the main a few days ago. Back in July we had a train run through a work zone. They were not PTC enforced when they should have been. There are still system issues to work out.


----------



## cocojacoby

AmtrakBlue said:


> The deadhead SSL was taken off in either WI or MN for, ironically, emergency response training.
> 
> View attachment 24582





Cal said:


> I saw a picture on Instagram of the extraction by firefighters (I believe it was taken by an AU’er as well). Didn’t realize it was the same train!
> 
> it must be that Amtrak is trying to destroy all their SSLs to further degrade long distance travel.



Yeah I was wondering what good this actually does. Using an open floorplan lounge for training seems kind of dumb. We all feel that using that great lounge car elsewhere would be preferable, but wouldn't it make more sense to use a sleeper since that is where people could get trapped in an accident? If these firefighters aren't familiar with the layout of that more complicated segmented car then they should be exposed to that environment rather than an open floorplan car.

Condolences to all involved. Any deaths are horrible. It will be important to find out where the fatalities occurred and why.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah I was wondering what good this actually does. Using an open floorplan lounge for training seems kind of dumb. We all feel that using that great lounge car elsewhere would be preferable, but wouldn't it make more sense to use a sleeper since that is where people could get trapped in an accident? If these firefighters aren't familiar with the layout of that more complicated segmented car then they should be exposed to that environment rather than an open floorplan car.
> 
> Condolences to all involved. Any deaths are horrible. It will be important to find out where the fatalities occurred and why.


Who's to say they haven't already been trained on sleeper and coaches. I'm sure it's a good idea to be trained on all types of cars.


----------



## jis

NSC1109 said:


> Again, not necessarily. PTC is still very much a work in progress. We just had a train run through a red signal on the main a few days ago. Back in July we had a train run through a work zone. They were not PTC enforced when they should have been. There are still system issues to work out.


I did not say it is impossible. I said it is unlikely. There are many ways in which things can fail. So very few things that do not outright violate the laws of Physics are impossible.


----------



## basketmaker

Devil's Advocate said:


> What's the reason for keeping Superliners on the CL to begin with?
> 
> 
> 
> It's really just a coincidence but these days the terms seem to be used interchangeably.
> 
> 
> Where I live those emergency numbers are not answered by actual railroads and instead go to highway patrol, who seem to have no idea what to do about it and may not have jurisdiction to do anything. My guess is that they write down what they _think_ you've said and then relay it to someone else like game of telephone. You bring up a good point about adding emergency numbers to your phone ahead of time so that in an actual emergency you can get to business quickly with a minimum of fuss and confusion.


When I lived in Antioch, TN right near a crossing CSX had the same sign posted with their emergency number and the crossing number posted on the the crossbucks/lights. Called it a few times over the years and it always rang to CSX operations in Jacksonville. They dispatched local authorities or maintainence for whatever the situation was. It has been 15 years since I lived there but it is still there.


----------



## Ziv

I hear you, Sporter. Everyone has a different threshold for tolerating risk of late. Pre-existing health issues, older family members, you name it, we all have to balance the moderately greater inherent risks of travel of late and our desire to get out there and travel. But it sounds like traveling in a commercial jet is not as risky as it would seem, even now that we are back to jets operating at full capacity. YMMV.
I imagine that the people on the unlucky Empire Builder had their own worries about traveling in a time of Covid. And that turned out to be the last of their worries.
But I think the one article I have read about Covid that seems to be the most accurate was a NYT piece a couple months ago that I would paraphrase as, "We simply don't know that much about Covid. A great deal of what we thought we knew was wrong."
I am back to traveling while taking precautions. If I could bring a can of Lysol on my flights all my rental cars and hotel rooms would get a good spray, but that ain't happening! LOL! But I have to admit that I used to get a can of Lysol when I arrived at my destination and I haven't done so since Spring.
My girlfriend is still in 'stay at home with minimal trips out to shop and relax' mode. There are a LOT of people that agree with her, not me.



sporter323 said:


> I spent all day yesterday getting flights, etc. I was due to ride the train on Tuesday from Pasco, WA to Toldeo, OH to see family. I am very nervous flying with COVID everywhere.


----------



## MilwaukeeRoadLover

Dakota 400 said:


> Lots of interesting discussion about what might have caused this, the forces involved with a train going 79 mph at the time of the accident, and which cars were involved. But, not much discussion about what the passengers in those cars that turned on their side must have experienced.
> 
> I have thought about this before this accident. Regardless of whatever car I might be riding when something like this happened, how could I escape with my train car ended up on its side? Being on the upper side of the car would pose different issues than if I was on the bottom side.
> 
> What would I do? What should I do? There is no information in the safety pamphlet provided Amtrak passengers about such a situation other than how to remove a safety window in order to escape. That's fine, as long as my train car remain upright. But, if it doesn't......?


To complicate that question, some cars... like the roomette cars..have compartment doors. So if the doors were closed, I would think youd get a different result than,say, a coach.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> To complicate that question, some cars... like the roomette cars..have compartment doors. So if the doors were closed, I would think youd get a different result than,say, a coach.



You’d certainly have more to brace yourself against in a roomette. Of course if the door is closed you might be trapped in your roomette since the door could become stuck.

That was one of the issues in the City of New Orleans derailment many years ago. 

It’s not fun to think about.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

basketmaker said:


> When I lived in Antioch, TN right near a crossing CSX had the same sign posted with their emergency number and the crossing number posted on the the crossbucks/lights. Called it a few times over the years and it always rang to CSX operations in Jacksonville. They dispatched local authorities or maintainence for whatever the situation was. It has been 15 years since I lived there but it is still there.


That's good to hear. For basic maintenance it probably works fine as-is but if there was a bent track or fouled crossing calling highway patrol may not be enough to prevent disaster in a timely fashion. I don't have to call those numbers often so maybe things have changed since the last time.



Ziv said:


> But it sounds like traveling in a commercial jet is not as risky as it would seem, even now that we are back to jets operating at full capacity.


Short domestic flights seem to be safe but on long haul flights it's not as easy to maintain standards. Meals in all cabins with masks off, longer sleeping periods with masks scrunched or askew, dark cabins with difficult to spot troublemakers, and extended downtime when nobody is checking anything.



Ziv said:


> If I could bring a can of Lysol on my flights all my rental cars and hotel rooms would get a good spray, but that ain't happening!


I've read hundreds of articles about the pandemic but none has ever shown a substantial causal link from secondary surface contact. I'm also hesitant to hose everything down with household disinfectants in a country that rarely bans chemicals thanks to a presumption of safety in the absence of absolute proof.









Banned in Europe, safe in the U.S.


Why are some chemicals banned in Europe while considered safe in the U.S.?




ensia.com


----------



## NSC1109

jis said:


> I did not say it is impossible. I said it is unlikely. There are many ways in which things can fail. So very few things that do not outright violate the laws of Physics are impossible.



Agreed. Just wanted to mention that it happens a lot more than people think it does, unfortunately.


----------



## George Harris

nendee said:


> When I was on the LSL there was a violent “bump” during the later evening. Was that possibly a switch gap? Do you think their might be a callout for suspension and track inspections?


No


----------



## Cal

sublib said:


> I'm going with NO. If you go back and look at photos taken the day of the incident, the last three cars are on their right side with trucks facing the tracks. I think they were rolled on Sunday... with the roofs facing the tracks.


Another miscommunication with the definition of roll. I was saying all Portland cars fell. on their side


----------



## TrackWalker

basketmaker said:


> ...
> View attachment 24585
> 
> (Picture by the Toronto Star)







__





Crossing Inventory Lookup | FRA







railroads.dot.gov


----------



## alpha3

Aw, man. Poor Amtrak; not what they needed. So sad to hear about this, especially thinking of the several times I've ridden the EB. A terrible thing to happen; I can't imagine experiencing the train coming off the rails at 79mph; must have been terrifying. But, like aircraft accidents, the NTSB will investigate and find stuff out and make recommendations. This doesn't seem gross negligence or anything like it, but maybe track maintenance at the turnout or the ties. That being said, I'd get on the EB tomorrow without a second thought.


----------



## lordsigma

NTSB briefing- train was at speed - not slowed down.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

watch this:  they seem to hint at track and state train was within speed.
they clearly state train derailed before it reached the switch .


----------



## DaveW

last summer a couple ecoterrorists were caught putting shunts between tracks on BNSF tracks north of Everett. I am not sure what this is supposed to do, but they said it could cause derailment.

King 5 news report


----------



## zephyr17

DaveW said:


> last summer a couple ecoterrorists were caught putting shunts between tracks on BNSF tracks north of Everett. I am not sure what this is supposed to do, but they said it could cause derailment.
> 
> King 5 news report


Probably the derailment mechanism from a shunt is a signal suddenly dropping to red without prior signals reflecting it (Approach, etc). That could cause the engineer to have to put the train in emergency, and that sudden, sharp braking has caused derailments on some occasions. Usually not, but it is certainly possible.

They threw the book at the perps, though. They are facing 20 years. One pled out and will likely have a much shorter sentence, but the other took it to trial and was found guilty. I imagine she's going spend a long, long time as a guest of the Federal prison system.


----------



## zephyr17

Dutchrailnut said:


> watch this:  they seem to hint at track and state train was within speed.
> they clearly state train derailed before it reached the switch .



Great link, thanks for posting it. And yes, NTSB spokesman clearly stated that it derailed prior to the siding switch. Shows you what I know.


----------



## TC_NYC

JayPea said:


> I have an EB trip coming up Friday morning as the first part of a loop trip (Spokane-Portland-Los Angeles-Chicago-Spokane). If the EB isn't running between Spokane and Portland by then, there are plenty of ways to get to Portland from Spokane. If, however, it is not going through to Spokane from Chicago on the return (scheduled to leave from Chicago on the 6th) that might be more problematic. Right now my thoughts are with the families of those affected by this tragedy and the members of the NTSB who are given the task of determining the cause of this derailment no matter how long it takes. To me whether the train runs is much less important.


I would sign up for trip insurance on the allianz website (will cost only ~$20-$30 for a single trip). If Amtrak cancels the CHI-SPK segment you can get the trip insurance to pay for a flight (or even pay for a flight from somewhere like Minot to Spokane).


----------



## Bob Dylan

Getting lots of TV on National and Local Channels!

Sad, but still the Safest way to Travel by far!


----------



## George K

Bob Dylan said:


> Sad, but still the Safest way to Travel by far!



Actually, per-passenger-mile, air travel is safest, with bus being second. Rail travel is #3 as I posted a while ago.


----------



## Bob Dylan

George K said:


> Actually, per-passenger-mile, air travel is safest, with bus being second. Rail travel is #3 as I posted a while ago.


Yep, but Airline Disasters tend to be like Cruise Ship Disasters, Multiple Deaths, even though they are rare..

I'll still take the Train over the others when it's practical, have actually probably flown more miles in my life than on trains due to my Work and International Travel!

Of course the Most Dangerous is Traveling via Automobile!


----------



## jebr

Bob Dylan said:


> Of course the Most Dangerous is Traveling via Automobile!



Yes - and by far you're safer taking the train, plane, or bus over a private automobile. According to the National Safety Council, you're 9x less likely to die by taking the bus over a car, 17x less likely if it's a train, and 1,606x less likely if it's a plane. Plus, the rate of deaths on non-automobile travel are so low that at least some of the differences could simply be artifacts of the very low number of fatalities seen on those modes of transportation.

I hope that the NTSB finds the root cause of this and we're able to use this as a learning experience to make death by train travel even less likely in the future. I'm also quite comfortable with my upcoming trips on planes, trains, and buses, even in light of this latest tragedy.


----------



## WWW

jebr said:


> Yes - and by far you're safer taking the train, plane, or bus over a private automobile. According to the National Safety Council, you're 9x less likely to die by taking the bus over a car, 17x less likely if it's a train, and 1,606x less likely if it's a plane. Plus, the rate of deaths on non-automobile travel are so low that at least some of the differences could simply be artifacts of the very low number of fatalities seen on those modes of transportation.
> 
> I hope that the NTSB finds the root cause of this and we're able to use this as a learning experience to make death by train travel even less likely in the future. I'm also quite comfortable with my upcoming trips on planes, trains, and buses, even in light of this latest tragedy.


The only serious current problem to contend with is that damn virus - All my travel plans to travel by rail to WV for the ACE event postponed
till same time next year.

BUT very sad for those folks on the EB #7 who had their travel plans interrupted not postponed !


----------



## lordsigma

Interesting, and morbid, the comments about “ejection” I wonder if one or more of the deaths was outside…


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> Interesting, and morbid, the comments about “ejection” I wonder if one or more of the deaths was outside…


If someone was ejected, I wonder if maybe it was through an end door when the cars split....like someone was in the process of passing between cars.


----------



## lordsigma

jebr said:


> Yes - and by far you're safer taking the train, plane, or bus over a private automobile. According to the National Safety Council, you're 9x less likely to die by taking the bus over a car, 17x less likely if it's a train, and 1,606x less likely if it's a plane. Plus, the rate of deaths on non-automobile travel are so low that at least some of the differences could simply be artifacts of the very low number of fatalities seen on those modes of transportation.
> 
> I hope that the NTSB finds the root cause of this and we're able to use this as a learning experience to make death by train travel even less likely in the future. I'm also quite comfortable with my upcoming trips on planes, trains, and buses, even in light of this latest tragedy.


You’re probably still less likely to die if you were on “this” derailed train than driving. Not saying that scientifically just saying.


----------



## neroden

Dutchrailnut said:


> watch this:  they seem to hint at track and state train was within speed.
> they clearly state train derailed before it reached the switch .




So, what we have learned so far:
-- the train was obeying the speed limit
-- the train derailed before the switch

Did anyone else get any other information out of the video? As far as I can tell those are the only conclusions which the NTSB has made so far.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

That plenty. A broken wheel would of been reported if there was one. All eyes are on the track structures, and the recent MOW in the area.


----------



## west point

IMO The most important item to do is listen. You can hear the train go into emergency and if you do immediately hold on for dear life. Was on the Eagle once sitting in the lounge with another fan. We heard the air go he shouted first " Every body hold on " We repeated that louder. The train went thru a diverging turn out at high speed. Well no one was hurt in the car but might have if he hadn't starting to warn other passengers.. Engineer could not see the red over yellow until very close to the search light signal. 

We told conductor no one in lounge was hurt to prevent any lawsuits when we got to Ft. Worth. Nrver heard a word later.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I’m hearing 7/27(28) and 8/28(29) will be running the whole route albeit with delays.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> That plenty. A broken wheel would of been reported if there was one. All eyes are on the track structures, and the recent MOW in the area.


Some of the stories in the Media and on the Net are mentioning a Flat Spoted wheel on of the Coaches that might have "failed" and derailed the Car.


----------



## JayPea

AmtrakBlue said:


> I’m hearing 7/27(28) and 8/28(29) will be running the whole route albeit with delays.


I was scheduled to be on 27(29) out of Spokane to Portland but received word today that it was cancelled. I was going to take it to catch the CS to Los Angeles on the 1st. So I made reservations to fly to Seattle, overnight there the 30th, and take the CS from Seattle instead. Let's just say the Amtrak agent, while he did get my reservation changed, was a tad clueless, since he told me I could go from Seattle to Portland on one train arriving at 2pm, and leave Portland at 2:25 on the other. He then said if that was cutting it too close, he could check to see if there was another train I could take from Seattle that would get me to Portland earlier. I told him that I was fine with arriving at 2pm seeing as how it was the same train. He then complimented me on knowing my stuff!


----------



## Cal

JayPea said:


> I was scheduled to be on 27(29) out of Spokane to Portland but received word today that it was cancelled. I was going to take it to catch the CS to Los Angeles on the 1st. So I made reservations to fly to Seattle, overnight there the 30th, and take the CS from Seattle instead. Let's just say the Amtrak agent, while he did get my reservation changed, was a tad clueless, since he told me I could go from Seattle to Portland on one train arriving at 2pm, and leave Portland at 2:25 on the other. He then said if that was cutting it too close, he could check to see if there was another train I could take from Seattle that would get me to Portland earlier. I told him that I was fine with arriving at 2pm seeing as how it was the same train. He then complimented me on knowing my stuff!


Yep, I had an agent not book us on Surfliner 785 because it was too tight of a connection from 774, even though 774 turns into 785.


----------



## joelkfla

Dutchrailnut said:


> they seem to hint at track


That's not what I heard. Seemed like he was very careful _not _to hint at anything. Quoting loosely, "We've not ruled anything out; we've ruled everything in."

He did say they would be carefully inspecting the track and viewing video from forward facing cameras, but they would need to do that in any case.



neroden said:


> Did anyone else get any other information out of the video? As far as I can tell those are the only conclusions which the NTSB has made so far.


There were no conclusions, just statements of fact.


----------



## Cal

Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana


JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Montana that killed three people and left seven hospitalized Sunday, officials said.




apnews.com





If anyone wanted a few more pictures of the cleanup. Also shows good quality images of the lead locomotives, 74 and 38.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

I am scheduled to board 7 from chi to sea Thursday the 30th. I hope the post saying resumption will be before that is correct. I think once they restore service the staff can get back to a regular routine, it has to be very hard on them, in sure they know each other pretty well and it becomes a unique “family” for some.


----------



## Cal

Irelandvegas65 said:


> I am scheduled to board 7 from chi to sea Thursday the 30th. I hope the post saying resumption will be before that is correct. I think once they restore service the staff can get back to a regular routine, it has to be very hard on them, in sure they know each other pretty well and it becomes a unique “family” for some.


Amtrak/Via Live map is showing that 7 that left CHI today is going all the way to Seattle, might not be accurate. But if it is, hopefully it will turn into 8.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Cal said:


> Amtrak/Via Live map is showing that 7 that left CHI today is going all the way to Seattle, might not be accurate. But if it is, hopefully it will turn into 8.


Certainly the EB tragedy brings sadness to all of us. I ride it regularly and am looking forward to the journey once again in about 3 weeks. We need to keep making rail travel safer and safer... even though accidents do happen. Let us all hope that the EB will be up and running... proudly as it has done for so many generations.

Don't we all love that train!


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> Amtrak/Via Live map is showing that 7 that left CHI today is going all the way to Seattle, might not be accurate. But if it is, hopefully it will turn into 8.


Amtrak's own "Track a Train" map shows it cancelled at all stations west of St. Paul.


----------



## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak's own "Track a Train" map shows it cancelled at all stations west of St. Paul.


Well, I'll go with Amtrak's then.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Surprised BNSF has not built a temporary bypass track past the derailment site. NTSB say one week. The back log for container out of the ports was 9 days already. This just makes it worse.


----------



## coventry801

This guy for sure know the stuff! 
Good interview.


----------



## sublib

Cal said:


> Another miscommunication with the definition of roll. I was saying all Portland cars fell. on their side



Rolled 90° vs Rolled 270°
I gotcha. Sorry.


----------



## Cal

coventry801 said:


> This guy for sure know the stuff!
> Good interview.



Amazing interview, honestly reminded me a lot of some members on here. Glad he was available and up for comment.


----------



## WWW

This tracking website is down - server problem:

Amtrak Status Maps - West (dixielandsoftware.net) 

This tracking website shows the #7 arriving MSP 2256 53 minutes late (2203):

Track Your Train Map | Amtrak 

I watched it leave the STP depot going somewhere to wye back to make up #8 in the morning

Consist was 1 locomotive - Transdorm - SSL and 4 possibly 5 cars diner sleepers coaches couldn't catch it all.
NO baggage car
The Transdorm has that square window at the front of the car -
The SSL is BIG WINDOWED
Angle views of the other cars not certain


----------



## WWW

Anyone know if the BNSF trains are being rerouted on other trackage i.e. the Northern Pacific northcoast limited or Milwaukee road
Although they may not be up to a lot of heavy traffic and not all connections possible ?

A lot of heavy hydraulic equipment in the photos and videos being used to raise the cars and replace the displaced wheels (trucks) 
remove the damaged cars - after all that is done BNSF track crew can come in straighten the rail mess -
as noted there is a siding some 3K feet the accident site. At the least they have a staging area to work with and a lot of room to
work with replacing rails and the track bed.


----------



## NW cannonball

Cal said:


> Amazing interview, honestly reminded me a lot of some members on here. Glad he was available and up for comment.


The passenger in that interview with his totally matter-of-fact telling of being in a train wreck -- his telling just soothes my fears. 
In the totally unlikely chance that I, or my loved ones, are ever in such a fearsome situation, I hope that I, and the other passengers, will be as calm and helpful to others.


----------



## zephyr17

WWW said:


> Anyone know if the BNSF trains are being rerouted on other trackage i.e. the Northern Pacific northcoast limited or Milwaukee road



Well, clearly not the Milwaukee. The rails have been gone from the old Milwaukee ROW through Montana for decades and the ROW itself largely reverted to private ownership.

They are detouring some traffic over the MRL (ex-NP).


----------



## stx

cocojacoby said:


> Using an open floorplan lounge for training seems kind of dumb. ... wouldn't it make more sense to use a sleeper since that is where people could get trapped in an accident? If these firefighters aren't familiar with the layout of that more complicated segmented car then they should be exposed to that environment rather than an open floorplan car.


Emergency crews can view floor plans from diagrams and photos and are used to dealing with a jumbled mess in many types of disasters and working their way through to every nook and cranny; layouts aren’t a huge consideration. Once they’re in a compartment they’ll either be right beside a patient, or not, and if they see another door they’ll open it. Hands-on training is generally more valuable for becoming familiar with mechanical systems, chocking to prevent rolling, support points for jacks and hydraulic airbags, how to open windows and doors, moving simulated victims through doorways, where to make cuts to tip sections away from each other, how to access egress routes when the train car is upright, on its side, on its roof, down an embankment, etc. Any fire/rescue agency with train tracks in its vicinity will likely have a partnership with that rail operator and dispatchers can coordinate any necessary information exchange.


----------



## stx

What an awful tragedy. It’s really nice to see several members mention that if you’re ever involved in something like this, you hope to be helpful. I’ve learned a lot from the rest of you over the years, so here’s my two cents on specific ways to lessen the chances of fatalities in any type of crash: 

In an impending crash, the best way to help yourself is probably to get into a confined space (not between cars) or beneath a table, to avoid being thrown far (the same principle used by putting school bus seats very close together) or into a table, and protect your head with your arms. Expect that it will be impossible to hold on, even at moderate speeds. For planning ahead, know how many rows the emergency exits are ahead and behind you, on both sides of the aisle, and expect it to be dark (from smoke or nighttime) when you need to find them. Visualize the steps for opening the emergency exit windows (directions are written on them). If there’s a fire and the exit handles are too hot to touch, wrap a shirt around your hand first. An inexpensive centerpunch is a great tool to keep in your vehicle or backpack for breaking out a window; you just press hard in an upper corner, and the spring-loaded tip does the rest (these are probably banned on planes and security guards probably won’t be happy to find them in a bag search, though). If you’re interested in being even more proactive, you can take a “Stop the Bleed” class anywhere in the country, often at fire stations; sometimes they give away door prizes of tourniquets and bandages. The one-hour course is usually free and teaches a few simple steps to literally prevent someone from bleeding to death in many cases, which is useful in a crash like this one. Some train stations have “Bleeding Control” kits near their AEDs now and this course teaches how to use them.


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## VentureForth

Saw an article suggesting a sun kink. In 80-degree weather? Same report states that the event recorder showed the train was travelling at 75 mph.


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## Steve Manfred

They said they have forward-facing cameras on the cars not only on this train, but also on the last freight train that went through this same area 80 minutes earlier. Between all that footage, the black box, and the positions of the cars and tracks immediately afterwards, they should have a very good idea of what happened very soon. 

Of course, "very soon" in government-agency-report terms probably means several weeks yet before we in the public hear.


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## AmtrakBlue

Steve Manfred said:


> They said they have forward-facing cameras on the cars not only on this train, but also on the last freight train that went through this same area 80 minutes earlier. Between all that footage, the black box, and the positions of the cars and tracks immediately afterwards, they should have a very good idea of what happened very soon.
> 
> Of course, "very soon" in government-agency-report terms probably means several weeks yet before we in the public hear.


He said they should have the preliminary report within 30 days. That should answer the “what happened”. It will take longer to analyze everything before they know the “why it happened”.


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## NSC1109

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Surprised BNSF has not built a temporary bypass track past the derailment site. NTSB say one week. The back log for container out of the ports was 9 days already. This just makes it worse.



Trains are probably being rerouted south into other terminals.


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## cassie225

coventry801 said:


> This guy for sure know the stuff!
> Good interview.



This guy makes me feel ok riding the train again. I wonder is he a member here, great interview except from the person who kept asking about did he see dead people


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## Maglev

I am saddened by the deaths, injuries, and trauma that this has caused; and worry about the long-term impacts on Amtrak. In the short term, I am concerned about what I can do to be safer while riding a train. It sounds as if the doors to sleeping compartments jammed easily. I am thinking that I might add a pry bar to my train travel tool kit--it wouldn't take up much space.


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## daybeers

Maglev said:


> I am saddened by the deaths, injuries, and trauma that this has caused; and worry about the long-term impacts on Amtrak. In the short term, I am concerned about what I can do to be safer while riding a train. It sounds as if the doors to sleeping compartments jammed easily. I am thinking that I might add a pry bar to my train travel tool kit--it wouldn't take up much space.


I'm not faulting you by any means, but this is just wild. Passengers feeling like they need to bring tools that would be considered weapons on other transportation modes in order to feel they can successfully escape in an emergency situation because Amtrak and the government is too incompetent to order the right equipment, maintain them well, and use cars less than 40-50 years old is wild.

I have a glimmer of hope that the issue of safety will push Amtrak to order Superliner replacements earlier.


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## plane2train

One of the things that might be useful in the future would be handles attached in various places so people have a chance to grab onto something in the event the car rolls over. On many trains across the world, handles are attached to the sides of aisle seats in coach, though presumably for passengers who do not have seats. In the interview that the guy gave above, he mentions that he was able to grab onto one of the tables in the sightseer lounge to prevent himself from being injured. Not everyone is that strong or lucky, of course, and that particularly includes the disabled. You can prepare all you can for these eventualities, but ultimately you have to be in the right place at the time the train tips over.


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## basketmaker

Next we will have seatbelts that must remain fastened. And safety briefings at each stop pointing out each emergency exit and how to use the seat cushion as a flotation device. This would be over and above the always wear shoes when walking through the train.


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## crescent-zephyr

daybeers said:


> I'm not faulting you by any means, but this is just wild. Passengers feeling like they need to bring tools that would be considered weapons on other transportation modes in order to feel they can successfully escape in an emergency situation because Amtrak and the government is too incompetent to order the right equipment, maintain them well, and use cars less than 40-50 years old is wild.
> 
> I have a glimmer of hope that the issue of safety will push Amtrak to order Superliner replacements earlier.



Or perhaps one of the reccomendations will be to not have doors on sleeper accommodations. Careful what you wish for!


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## me_little_me

Maglev said:


> I am saddened by the deaths, injuries, and trauma that this has caused; and worry about the long-term impacts on Amtrak. In the short term, I am concerned about what I can do to be safer while riding a train. It sounds as if the doors to sleeping compartments jammed easily. I am thinking that I might add a pry bar to my train travel tool kit--it wouldn't take up much space.


I bring a Jaws of Life setup with me. A little heavy but it's great if you are running late and can't get your bags out through the window, F.D. Jaws of life


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## basketmaker

sublib said:


> I'm going with NO. If you go back and look at photos taken the day of the incident, the last three cars are on their right side with trucks facing the tracks. I think they were rolled on Sunday... with the roofs facing the tracks.


You can see how badly the roofs are buckled and dented. As well as the debris scattered around from when they rolled and the stuff came out of the windows and end door.


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## neroden

plane2train said:


> One of the things that might be useful in the future would be handles attached in various places so people have a chance to grab onto something in the event the car rolls over. On many trains across the world, handles are attached to the sides of aisle seats in coach, though presumably for passengers who do not have seats.


It's also for the benefit of the mobility-impaired -- it's a common request among those who can walk, but not well. As an ADA accomodation I would expect it in all new coaches.


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## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Surprised BNSF has not built a temporary bypass track past the derailment site. NTSB say one week. The back log for container out of the ports was 9 days already. This just makes it worse.


BNSF doesn't own enough ROW to build a bypass around the NTSB investigation site, which is very wide. They're detouring through whatever other routes they can use. Pity they scrapped so many of the "redundant" routes, isn't it?


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## stx

plane2train said:


> One of the things that might be useful in the future would be handles attached in various places so people have a chance to grab onto something


Great idea. Even better if the handles are recessed, so we’re not flung into them. As a first responder, I eye other passengers’ overhead luggage warily if it sticks out past the metal retaining bars and I don’t sit near the loose pile of luggage near handicapped seats, because I’ve seen what a difference a simple retaining “lip’ can make to reduce the impact of flying objects. It’s hard to balance safety with practicality.


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## OBS

Steve Manfred said:


> They said they have forward-facing cameras on the cars not only on this train, but also on the last freight train that went through this same area 80 minutes earlier. Between all that footage, the black box, and the positions of the cars and tracks immediately afterwards, they should have a very good idea of what happened very soon.
> 
> Of course, "very soon" in government-agency-report terms probably means several weeks yet before we in the public hear.


The cameras are not in the cars, only in the locomotives.


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## F900ElCapitan

Through FaceBook I learned that the OBS crew was nearly all the same crew that my wife and I rode with from Essex (departed 9/11) to Chicago just a couple of weeks ago. I have learned that most and probably all were given extremely high praise from the passengers. My SCA Tashi, one of the waitress’ in the diner (I don’t remember her name but has beautiful red hair), and Alberto in the 27 sleeper were all mentioned to be safe and performed way above and beyond what’s expected. I really hope they are recognized by Amtrak and I hope to be able to do the same one day.


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## frequentflyer

Looking at the ground you can see where the lead of the three cars dug into the ground the tight lock couplers let go or broke (cannot imagine the physics of 75 ton cars cutting dirt and decelerating in an instant). 







As regards crimpled roofs, could be from the rescue operation. Here another closeup. Look at a Superliner roof up close on the numerous YouTube cams and one will see dimpled roofs on these cars. These cars are over 40 years old and have been through more hailstorms than we will experience in our lifetimes,






75 tons rolling over their roofs will do more damage than this. Be impressed the three cars stayed coupled together, that alone saved more lives.


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## AmtrakBlue

F900ElCapitan said:


> Through FaceBook I learned that the OBS crew was nearly all the same crew that my wife and I rode with from Essex (departed 9/11) to Chicago just a couple of weeks ago. I have learned that most and probably all were given extremely high praise from the passengers. My SCA Tashi, one of the waitress’ in the diner (I don’t remember her name but has beautiful red hair), and Alberto in the 27 sleeper were all mentioned to be safe and performed way above and beyond what’s expected. I really hope they are recognized by Amtrak and I hope to be able to do the same one day.


I'm sure they all did an excellent job. Not sure if they went "way above and beyond what's expected" as they are all trained on what to do in an emergency, including derailments.


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## CTBob

F900ElCapitan said:


> Through FaceBook I learned that the OBS crew was nearly all the same crew that my wife and I rode with from Essex (departed 9/11) to Chicago just a couple of weeks ago. I have learned that most and probably all were given extremely high praise from the passengers. My SCA Tashi, one of the waitress’ in the diner (I don’t remember her name but has beautiful red hair), and Alberto in the 27 sleeper were all mentioned to be safe and performed way above and beyond what’s expected. I really hope they are recognized by Amtrak and I hope to be able to do the same one day.



Yes, we had Tashi as our SCA when we took #7 from CHI to SEA on Sept. 2nd. Terrific service and great sense of humor. At extended stops he would lead the passengers in stretching exercises on the platform. Very glad to hear he's well.


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## joelkfla

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Surprised BNSF has not built a temporary bypass track past the derailment site. NTSB say one week. The back log for container out of the ports was 9 days already. This just makes it worse.


NTSB spokesman in the video said they expect to be on site for a week, but when a reporter asked later if the tracks would be closed for a week, he said something like, "Oh no, not that long," but was not more specific. He also said the railroad has already staged materials for the track repair.


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## jis

Given that apparently today's 7 departure is slated to go through all the way, it would appear they have released the track already.


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## AmtrakBlue

BNSF Reopens Hi-Line After Fatal Amtrak Wreck


The National Transportation Safety Board gave the track back to BNSF Railway late Monday afternoon.




railfan.com


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## John819

Great job by the MOW crews.


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## John Santos

plane2train said:


> One of the things that might be useful in the future would be handles attached in various places so people have a chance to grab onto something in the event the car rolls over. On many trains across the world, handles are attached to the sides of aisle seats in coach, though presumably for passengers who do not have seats. In the interview that the guy gave above, he mentions that he was able to grab onto one of the tables in the sightseer lounge to prevent himself from being injured. Not everyone is that strong or lucky, of course, and that particularly includes the disabled. You can prepare all you can for these eventualities, but ultimately you have to be in the right place at the time the train tips over.


One thing NASA discovered way back during the Gemini program in the 1960's was how useful putting handles and handrails on everything is when you don't have stable gravity to hold you and things in place. It was only on the final Gemini flight that they put it all together and Buzz Aldrin (a hero of mine) was able to conduct the first truly successful EVA. He had lots of handles and rails (and places to put his feet) to hook onto and to grip. On all the previous space walks, the astronauts came literal close to death whenever they tried to do anything. Dangerously high pulse rates and blood pressure whenever they tried to move themselves to use any tools. Having something to hold onto made all the difference in the world. (Or all the difference out of this world!)

The same thing applies on any unstable mode of transportation, including trains on bumpy tracks, buses and boats. I've noticed the lack of places to grab in many of the older coaches and in the aisles in the sleepers. I hope the new VL2's and Amfleet replacements have many more of them, and when they refurbish the old Viewliners and Superliner, they add them wherever possible. It's pretty cheap and great for people with ordinary mobility, let alone mobility-impaired people.

The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)

I've ridden other. newer B-P (and other) ferries since and noticed the seats usually have handles in the upper corners of their backs, which I now truly appreciate. I hope the new Amtrak coaches, diners and observation cars have the same. (I took a train once or twice with a new VL2 diner (being used as a sleeper lounge), but didn't notice whether it had hand-holds on the seats or partitions.)


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## Barb Stout

AmtrakBlue said:


> BNSF Reopens Hi-Line After Fatal Amtrak Wreck
> 
> 
> The National Transportation Safety Board gave the track back to BNSF Railway late Monday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railfan.com


Wow, that was fast. I wonder if the derailed cars have been moved also or if they will be further examined in situ. Would be a bit eerie to ride through the area with the derailed cars still there.


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## Barb Stout

WWW said:


> Anyone know if the BNSF trains are being rerouted on other trackage i.e. the Northern Pacific northcoast limited or Milwaukee road
> Although they may not be up to a lot of heavy traffic and not all connections possible ?
> 
> A lot of heavy hydraulic equipment in the photos and videos being used to raise the cars and replace the displaced wheels (trucks)
> remove the damaged cars - after all that is done BNSF track crew can come in straighten the rail mess -
> as noted there is a siding some 3K feet the accident site. At the least they have a staging area to work with and a lot of room to
> work with replacing rails and the track bed.


During the interview with the NTSB guy, a reporter mentioned that there were a bunch of freight trains backed up on the Hi-Line on both sides of the accident waiting for it to be cleared. The reporter then asked about time frames.


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## Barb Stout

coventry801 said:


> This guy for sure know the stuff!
> Good interview.



Except one important question that non-short people don't think of asking. What was the distance between the window and the ground, given that it was on an embankment? Would a short person have had to jump down?


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## ferg

CTBob said:


> Yes, we had Tashi as our SCA when we took #7 from CHI to SEA on Sept. 2nd. Terrific service and great sense of humor. At extended stops he would lead the passengers in stretching exercises on the platform. Very glad to hear he's well.


I was also on the #7 from CHI to SEA that departed on Sept 2. Our SCA was Yonis, who I have seen in a few of the pictures floating around on the news, but we also met Tashi and he was a super nice and helpful guy!


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## TinCan782

ferg said:


> I was also on the #7 from CHI to SEA that departed on Sept 2. Our SCA was Yonis, who I have seen in a few of the pictures floating around on the news, but we also met Tashi and he was a super nice and helpful guy!


I've ridden with Tashi a couple of times. Most recently in July CHI to MSP on #7. Agree, hi is nice and helpful.


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## Bierboy

™


Barb Stout said:


> Wow, that was fast. I wonder if the derailed cars have been moved also or if they will be further examined in situ. _*Would be a bit eerie to ride through the area with the derailed cars still there.*_


That’s not unusual. Wife and I were on the EB a few years ago and passed through an area where some freight cars had derailed. There were quite a few still on the ground in the area. Granted, not passenger carriages…


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## Cal

Barb Stout said:


> Wow, that was fast. I wonder if the derailed cars have been moved also or if they will be further examined in situ. Would be a bit eerie to ride through the area with the derailed cars still there.


I've ridden by two accident-sites where cars (grain hoppers) were on the ground. I didn't find it too eerie.


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## Amtrak Apple

I see the first lawsuit has been filed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you sort of turn over some rights to the travel vessel (train, plane, auto) when you buy a ticket? Sounds like a pretty terrible situation to go through though.



https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/kulr8.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/47/0478c876-871c-50da-8542-2c7e496ceab2/6153692da1451.pdf.pdf


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## TrackWalker

Barb Stout said:


> ...Would be a bit eerie to ride through the area with the derailed cars still there.



I found it quite eerie to be pulling away from my own sleeper car in the dark after it derailed last spring on the Texas Eagle.


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## Cal

Amtrak Apple said:


> I see the first lawsuit has been filed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you sort of turn over some rights to the travel vessel (train, plane, auto) when you buy a ticket? Sounds like a pretty terrible situation to go through though.
> 
> 
> 
> https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/kulr8.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/47/0478c876-871c-50da-8542-2c7e496ceab2/6153692da1451.pdf.pdf


"This accident and the death and destruction it caused was entirely preventable. Sadly, the September 25, 2021 derailment of Empire Builder Train 7/27 is but another in a long list of devastating and fatal train derailments caused by the negligence and carelessness of Defendants Amtrak and BNSF. "

The cause of the accident hasn't been released yet. :/


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## Qapla

At this juncture, it is a bit too early to say that this derailment was "entirely preventable".

Not saying that this is the case, but, what if it is determined that a freak wind blew the train off the tracks or someone had placed a foreign object on the tracks or even removed bolts from the rails and ties after the freight went by .... 

Seems to me it would have been better to wait until the cause was released.


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## Dakota 400

Barb Stout said:


> Except one important question that non-short people don't think of asking. What was the distance between the window and the ground, given that it was on an embankment? Would a short person have had to jump down?



I noted that in the gentleman's interview. To have crawled through a broken window of the SSL between the car and the ground in order to escape, could I/would I have done so? Was this the best decision one could make at that time? Would it have been better to wait for the emergency responders (or Amtrak crew) to give me directions as to what to do? 

Obviously, the decisions he made were to his benefit.


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## flitcraft

CTBob said:


> At extended stops he would lead the passengers in stretching exercises on the platform.


That's tai chi, I think. He was the SCA on the EB when we took it earlier this summer, and I was amused to see him doing tai chi on the platform. (This reminded me to do my exercises in my room in the mornings...)


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## Willbridge

John Santos said:


> One thing NASA discovered way back during the Gemini program in the 1960's was how useful putting handles and handrails on everything is when you don't have stable gravity to hold you and things in place. It was only on the final Gemini flight that they put it all together and Buzz Aldrin (a hero of mine) was able to conduct the first truly successful EVA. He had lots of handles and rails (and places to put his feet) to hook onto and to grip. On all the previous space walks, the astronauts came literal close to death whenever they tried to do anything. Dangerously high pulse rates and blood pressure whenever they tried to move themselves to use any tools. Having something to hold onto made all the difference in the world. (Or all the difference out of this world!)
> 
> The same thing applies on any unstable mode of transportation, including trains on bumpy tracks, buses and boats. I've noticed the lack of places to grab in many of the older coaches and in the aisles in the sleepers. I hope the new VL2's and Amfleet replacements have many more of them, and when they refurbish the old Viewliners and Superliner, they add them wherever possible. It's pretty cheap and great for people with ordinary mobility, let alone mobility-impaired people.
> 
> The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)
> 
> I've ridden other. newer B-P (and other) ferries since and noticed the seats usually have handles in the upper corners of their backs, which I now truly appreciate. I hope the new Amtrak coaches, diners and observation cars have the same. (I took a train once or twice with a new VL2 diner (being used as a sleeper lounge), but didn't notice whether it had hand-holds on the seats or partitions.)



Here's a Czech First Class car that I rode in 2018. I appreciated the handholds, although the ride was much smoother than my usual Superliner experience. On Amtrak I usually end up grabbing some guy's head.


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## Willbridge

Cal said:


> "This accident and the death and destruction it caused was entirely preventable. Sadly, the September 25, 2021 derailment of Empire Builder Train 7/27 is but another in a long list of devastating and fatal train derailments caused by the negligence and carelessness of Defendants Amtrak and BNSF. "
> 
> The cause of the accident hasn't been released yet. :/


There are a number of errors in their filing, probably caused by the rush. Note that one of the firms is in Philadelphia. They probably cut and pasted from the lawsuits in the NEC crash.

Possibly the biggest error is stating that the train was on the BNSF all the way from Chicago as a justification for suing the BNSF in Illinois. Another serious error is their claim that PTC failed to prevent the accident, as there is no sign that this had anything to do with PTC. Instead, that's a clue that this is a cut and paste from the NEC overspeed accident.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Got to file first, so you make more money.


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## Cal

Willbridge said:


> There are a number of errors in their filing, probably caused by the rush. Note that one of the firms is in Philadelphia. They probably cut and pasted from the lawsuits in the NEC crash.
> 
> Possibly the biggest error is stating that the train was on the BNSF all the way from Chicago as a justification for suing the BNSF in Illinois. Another serious error is their claim that PTC failed to prevent the accident, as there is no sign that this had anything to do with PTC. Instead, that's a clue that this is a cut and paste from the NEC overspeed accident.




"Failing to slow down as the Empire Builder Train approached the East Buelow track switch;" 

It was operating at (technically under) the speed limit as well


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## west point

Have always believed in handholds. They make it much easier to pass along the coach cars. If you have nothing in hand the left right left right makes anyone feel very secure. As well handholds on both side when crossing over the couplers are also very good. The lounge car on the starlight only had a handhold on one side passing thru to that car. I did not like that.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Dakota 400 said:


> I noted that in the gentleman's interview. To have crawled through a broken window of the SSL between the car and the ground in order to escape, could I/would I have done so? Was this the best decision one could make at that time? Would it have been better to wait for the emergency responders (or Amtrak crew) to give me directions as to what to do?
> 
> Obviously, the decisions he made were to his benefit.



Very general rule: Self Rescue every time.

If your in a building on Fire you need to get out. You do not wait for instructions. You get out, stay out, and call 911(US).

You and your family have a rally location at your house. (Mailbox) At work you have rally location sometimes marked. Get yourself out and meet at the rally point and checking with your building fire marshal or other family members. Report missing member and pets still inside. Approx location if possible to the Fire Department.

When traveling on Amtrak review the card in the seat back/sleeper. Three ways list to leave in a emergency. Leave your coach and enter the next car. Leave thur a door and exit to the ground. Leave by open the window and sliding/jumping down to the ground. The card has picture where safety equipment is located. Walk around and find it. Where are your fire extinguisher? There a first aid kit, where is it. What are those metal tools ⚒ and where are they located. The card provided guidance on what to do in a emergency.

In this case your cars landed on it side.

Step one scene safety. Fire, electric hazard, water flooding the railcar? Time to move. Find daylight now.
Step two are you OK, is everyone with you OK. If the car is on fire you move injured, other wise apply direct pressure to any bleeding and keep them warm, and stay with them.
 Exiting the train and stay together if conditions are acceptable. Don’t leave if there a raging snow storm if there is no hazards you need to escape from.
 Don’t just grab a ride to the bus station, people are going to be looking for you.

Ok it past midnight here, the above guidelines are just that, guideline. Waiting for instructions during a immediate life threatening event will not have a positive outcome. If your not in danger, you can be a sheep and follow the flock.

Remember it was in the 90s and the railcars lost power, and the people were getting hot fast. Not a life threatening issue at first, but will develop into one. Finding a shaded spot was a priority for some.


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## MIrailfan

Frivolous lawsuit.


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## WWW

Willbridge said:


> There are a number of errors in their filing, probably caused by the rush. Note that one of the firms is in Philadelphia. They probably cut and pasted from the lawsuits in the NEC crash.
> 
> Possibly the biggest error is stating that the train was on the BNSF all the way from Chicago as a justification for suing the BNSF in Illinois. Another serious error is their claim that PTC failed to prevent the accident, as there is no sign that this had anything to do with PTC. Instead, that's a clue that this is a cut and paste from the NEC overspeed accident.


To clarify the Empire Builder train 7 leaving Chicago to Minneapolis St.Paul is on Canadian Pacific tracks (formerly the Milwaukee Road)
In northeast Minneapolis the EB switches over to the BNSF system to Seattle. 

Would the lawyers please wait to read the report findings of the NTSB - something about chasing ambulances and train mishaps -
A rush to erroneous judgement before the facts are reported !

FYI

Train # 7 28 September arrived MSP 9:52pm (11 minutes early) and departed 10:20 On Time
Consist - the standard 10 car arrangement
2 locomotive
1 baggage car
1 transdorm (the one with the square window at the front of the car
1 sleeper
1 sleeper
1 diner
1 coach

Spokane section
1 ssl lounge
1 coach
1 coach
1 sleeper


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## HammerJack

Not sure who wrote the lawsuit document posted here earlier, but it’s full of errors and awful takes. How can you even sue prior to the investigation and ANY report being released? The lawsuit just generically blames Amtrak and BNSF for everything.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

#7 looks to be moving along just fine! I don’t know why the speed is showing so high but many I looked at are like that this morning Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about? Either way Empire Builder is back in action I can’t wait to board her Thursday afternoon (tomorrow)!


----------



## George K

That's the lawyers talking - Of course they blame Amtrak and BNSF for everything. Their thinking is that had the companies done their jobs and kept up maintenance and "culture of safety" this would never have happened.

If you're not going to blame Amtrak and BNSF, you have little recourse other than shaking your fist at the sky.

Note, not that I'm agreeing with the thinking, just pointing it out.

Sometimes, "accidents" are just that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Irelandvegas65 said:


> #7 looks to be moving along just fine! I don’t know why the speed is showing so high but many I looked at are like that this morning Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about? Either way Empire Builder is back in action I can’t wait to board her Thursday afternoon (tomorrow)!


It’s a glitch on the tracker. Someone on FB said it’s showing km even though it says mph


----------



## Ryan

Yeah, the Auto Train ticking along at 110 "MPH" is a dead giveaway.


----------



## zephyr17

Irelandvegas65 said:


> Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about?


That's gotta be some kind of weird artifact and not the actual speed.

FRA limits speed to 79 mph for passenger trains on Class 4 track, and none of the Builder's route is anything above Class 4. Plus there is a governer that trips with any sustained speed over 82 or 83 mph and will bring the engine to a stop. Also the line has PTC that will enforce speed restrictions.

Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that one of Amtrak's highly skilled IT technicians hit a "kilometer" toggle. 112.3 km/h is 69.78 mph. 70 is a quite conceivable speed for the Devil's Lake Sub where the tracker is showing 7.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

*waiting for posts on FB saying that the Builder needs to slow down to at least 70 after what happened on Saturday*


----------



## Exvalley

It's interesting that the complaint is signed by attorneys from two different firms. One firm is located in Chicago. The other in Philadelphia. Could it be that the Philadelphia law firm has prior experience in suing Amtrak?


----------



## Exvalley

Exvalley said:


> Could it be that the Philadelphia law firm has prior experience in suing Amtrak?


I just answered my own question. Yes, they have sued Amtrak before.








Amtrak Hit With More Lawsuits From Philadelphia Derailment - Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky


Attorneys Bob Zimmerman, left; Robert Mongeluzzi, center; and Tom Kline, right, announce a federal lawsuit they filed today against Amtrak for last week's...




www.smbb.com





And after this most recent accident they put out a press release looking for victims:




__





Railroad Catastrophe Lawyers From Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky Available To Discuss Fatal Amtrak Derailment In Montana


/PRNewswire/ -- Leading railroad catastrophe lawyers from Saltz, Mongeluzzi & Bendesky, P.C., are responding to media inquiries today following yesterday's...




www.prnewswire.com





Apparently the press release worked.


----------



## cocojacoby

basketmaker said:


> You can see how badly the roofs are buckled and dented. As well as the debris scattered around from when they rolled and the stuff came out of the windows and end door.
> View attachment 24619


I believe that photo was taken after they intentionally flipped the cars over. Other photos show the roofs in good condition after the initial tip.


----------



## josephr33

I read throught the lawsuit and there is a ton of talk about heat kinks and rail temps. As others have pointed out it was obviously written quickly and poorly but the amount of mention of these issues makes me wonder if they know something we don't. They may also just be guessing like we all are here...


----------



## Exvalley

josephr33 said:


> s others have pointed out it was obviously written quickly and poorly but the amount of mention of these issues makes me wonder if they know something we don't. They may also just be guessing like we all are here...


Civil Rule of Procedure 11 prevents them from just guessing - or at least can sanction them if they are just guessing. The rule says that they must have a factual basis for their allegations. I also doubt that they would stake their professional reputation on a mere guess. My hunch is that whoever they use as an expert witness has some connections.









Legal Definition of Sanctions Rule 11: What You Need to Know


Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 provides that a district court may sanction attorneys or parties who submit pleadings for an improper purpose.




www.upcounsel.com


----------



## joelkfla

Exvalley said:


> I just answered my own question. Yes, they have sued Amtrak before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Hit With More Lawsuits From Philadelphia Derailment - Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky
> 
> 
> Attorneys Bob Zimmerman, left; Robert Mongeluzzi, center; and Tom Kline, right, announce a federal lawsuit they filed today against Amtrak for last week's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.smbb.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And after this most recent accident they put out a press release looking for victims:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad Catastrophe Lawyers From Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky Available To Discuss Fatal Amtrak Derailment In Montana
> 
> 
> /PRNewswire/ -- Leading railroad catastrophe lawyers from Saltz, Mongeluzzi & Bendesky, P.C., are responding to media inquiries today following yesterday's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.prnewswire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently the press release worked.


I find it amusing that their press release characterizes themselves as "leading railroad catastrophe lawyers". Leading, as in, closest to the ambulances?

Really doesn't seem like something to be proud of.


----------



## NSC1109

HammerJack said:


> Not sure who wrote the lawsuit document posted here earlier, but it’s full of errors and awful takes. How can you even sue prior to the investigation and ANY report being released? The lawsuit just generically blames Amtrak and BNSF for everything.



Not to mention outright lies…

“Amtrak and BNSF employed workers and personnel at the train station in Chicago, Illinois to assist passengers boarding the Empire Builder train, including Rebecca and Zach.”

This is false. While BNSF does employ personnel who work at Union Station, they have absolutely nothing to do with the Amtrak operation and are on the opposite side of the building and are acting on behalf of Metra, not Amtrak.

The network map they show is inaccurate, BNSF obviously doesnt own the tracks north of CUS where the EB travels…

The lawsuit claims that BNSF and Amtrak are a part of a “joint venture” for carrying Amtrak passengers…is there any truth to this? To my knowledge Amtrak simply purchases trackage rights.

The lawsuit claims that Amtrak was negligent, but there is zero evidence of it thus far. It also claims that both the Cayce incident and the 2016 Palmetto crash were both the fault of Amtrak and a demonstration of the negligence of safety for their passengers…despite the Cayce derailment not being caused by Amtrak and the Palmetto crash not causing the death of any passenger, but rather two MOW employees on a backhoe.

The lawsuit also claims that Amtrak and BNSF failed to follow the NORAC rules, when in actuality Amtrak crews use GCOR west of Chicago and BNSF doesn’t use NORAC at all…

I couldn’t get through the entire suit…it reeks of nothing more than clueless desperation for a payday. I feel badly for this woman who lost her husband. I’ve ridden the EB and it’s a beautiful journey. But this is just BS.


----------



## NSC1109

joelkfla said:


> I find it amusing that their press release characterizes themselves as "leading railroad catastrophe lawyers". Leading, as in, closest to the ambulances?
> 
> Really doesn't seem like something to be proud of.



You’d think “leading railroad catastrophe lawyers” would know something about railroad operations, or at least would be able to read a map defining who owns what…

These guys are idiots.


----------



## jis

I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.


----------



## Exvalley

jis said:


> I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.


These guys have been extremely successful in the past. I would not be so quick to brush them off.

I expect to see an amended complaint filed at some point in the future. They rushed to get this filed in order to get their foot in the door and to attract other potential plaintiffs. Any factual errors will be quickly resolved, if for not other reason than to comply with Rule 11.

It will be interesting to see if BNSF can be sued in Illinois. No doubt they will be seeking a dismissal based on this.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

jis said:


> I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.


Unfortunately, I lost that a long time ago. The sad reality is the amount of money Amtrak/BNSF is looking at to just make this go away vs the total cost of a full trial even if they are found not guilty.


----------



## George K

Lawfare.


----------



## Exvalley

The Plaintiff is young, gainfully employed, recently married, and with a full life ahead of him. If there is indeed a factual basis for the claim, this will not be a cheap case to settle.


----------



## Barb Stout

TrackWalker said:


> I found it quite eerie to be pulling away from my own sleeper car in the dark after it derailed last spring on the Texas Eagle.
> 
> View attachment 24625


Huh. I don't remember reading about this one. Is there a thread on the forum about it?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Barb Stout said:


> Huh. I don't remember reading about this one. Is there a thread on the forum about it?


I think that's the one that got stuck in the sand at ?Palm Springs?


----------



## Ziv

I used to think I would never be sea sick, I have been on Lomprayah ferries to Ko Tao and Ko Phangan in pretty rough seas and was ok, sailed on a tall ship (the Golden Hinde) in fairly rough weather and went deep sea fishing a time or two. 
Then I saw a Greek Blue Star ferry trying to arrive in Naxos after a trip from Athens. The ferry hove to off the entrance to the port and was doing a gut churning dance where the bow was doing circles in the air that were about 20 yards high and an equal distance side to side. Plus it was rolling 25 or 30 degrees to port then starboard. And it was an irregular pattern. 
I was on the pier waiting to leave but when the ferry took off back to Piraeus I really didn't mind spending another day in Naxos town. Even at 18-20 knots the ferry was still rolling like a pig when it went out of sight.
If discussing food is "requirement", the Sheftalia (Cypriot type sausage) at Kozi just off the marina was outstanding. They serve it with mild grilled green peppers if you ask for them.



John Santos said:


> ...
> 
> The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)
> 
> ...


----------



## basketmaker

Cal said:


> "This accident and the death and destruction it caused was entirely preventable. Sadly, the September 25, 2021 derailment of Empire Builder Train 7/27 is but another in a long list of devastating and fatal train derailments caused by the negligence and carelessness of Defendants Amtrak and BNSF. "
> 
> The cause of the accident hasn't been released yet. :/


Just warming up for the Lottery Wheel spin!


----------



## basketmaker

John Santos said:


> One thing NASA discovered way back during the Gemini program in the 1960's was how useful putting handles and handrails on everything is when you don't have stable gravity to hold you and things in place. It was only on the final Gemini flight that they put it all together and Buzz Aldrin (a hero of mine) was able to conduct the first truly successful EVA. He had lots of handles and rails (and places to put his feet) to hook onto and to grip. On all the previous space walks, the astronauts came literal close to death whenever they tried to do anything. Dangerously high pulse rates and blood pressure whenever they tried to move themselves to use any tools. Having something to hold onto made all the difference in the world. (Or all the difference out of this world!)
> 
> The same thing applies on any unstable mode of transportation, including trains on bumpy tracks, buses and boats. I've noticed the lack of places to grab in many of the older coaches and in the aisles in the sleepers. I hope the new VL2's and Amfleet replacements have many more of them, and when they refurbish the old Viewliners and Superliner, they add them wherever possible. It's pretty cheap and great for people with ordinary mobility, let alone mobility-impaired people.
> 
> The only time I've ever been sea-sick was on one of the older Boston-Provincetown ferries. It was the first trip after a storm the night before. The first 3rd (about half an hour) was fine as we sailed past the harbor islands to the entry to the harbor. Then the middle third was very rough until we got into the shelter of Cape Cod. I had missed lunch and got a snack, a bagel and a cup of coffee, from the snack bar. I had almost made it back to my seat, balancing the bagel on top of the coffee cup with one hand and trying to hold onto the seats of other passengers with the other, when we hit the open water and my bagel went flying! Most of the very hot coffee sloshed out onto my hand and the floor. (Why they didn't have lids, I don't know...) A few seconds later, I was too sick to eat or drink anyway. It got a little better when we reached the smoother water near P-Town, but I was still woozie. Then, 5 minutes ashore, I was totally fine, and my friends who picked me up there took me straight to Moby Dick's in Wellfleet for a terrific, enormous sea food late lunch/early dinner. (I know it's an AU requirement to always discuss food whenever possible.)
> 
> I've ridden other. newer B-P (and other) ferries since and noticed the seats usually have handles in the upper corners of their backs, which I now truly appreciate. I hope the new Amtrak coaches, diners and observation cars have the same. (I took a train once or twice with a new VL2 diner (being used as a sleeper lounge), but didn't notice whether it had hand-holds on the seats or partitions.)


Back in the day you coulda flown Provincetown-Boston Airline (PBA) that I used to work for. But no bagels and coffee????


----------



## PaTrainFan

It's inevitable there will be a settlement of some sort. No trial, just ambulance chasers trying to get something for their clients to claim success and publicity, setting themselves up for the next opportunity, and Amtrak and/or BNSF settling to make it all go away.


----------



## cocojacoby

So as frequent Amtrak users can we all be added to the lawsuit for emotional distress from afar? And since they tried to come up with every angle they could to make their case, how did they possibly omit Pullman Standard and/or Bombardier (and probably Alstom) for making an unsafe product?


----------



## MerchantSeaman

Having been on site during three NTSB investigations during my career I have observed the professional investigators gathering evidence. In each investigation the outcome ( the Report ) took years. And the most important element of the report is the recommendations to avoid the accident. Sometimes it is Human, or mechanical or a mix of both. If a regulation can be crafted to avoid the accident....the regulation will be proposed ( published ) .....and after comments ....and testimony...It becomes regulation ...This system has served the private and public transportation sectors well. Think Positive Train Control, all of my experience was spent in the Maritime Industry but the outcome is the same.. next time you go to a library ask to see the Codes of Federal Regulations a massive regulatory
publication that provides us protections as citizens of the United states. ( all of these NTSB investigations are open to public view..)


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Defendants will file a motion to dismiss, plaintiffs will amend their complaint. Filling first definitely seems to have been the objective - as long as the courts reward that, folks will continue to slap something together and rush to get it filed.


----------



## LookingGlassTie

Apparently one's culpability varies directly with the depth of one's pockets........... 

Seriously though, I'm thinking that the lawsuit was filed because the standard of proof is much lower in civil cases (preponderance of evidence) than in criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt). I'm not saying for one second that anyone at Amtrak or BNSF is (or should be) criminally liable; I'm just pointing out that it's generally easier to win a lawsuit because the evidentiary standard is lower.

In other words, the plaintiff(s) might be thinking, "well if we can't get them sent to jail or prison, we'll make them pay financially".


----------



## josephr33

Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.

‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Family Of Man Killed In Amtrak Derailment Files Suit, But Legal Loophole May Limit How Much You Can Recover From Amtrak – CBS Chicago (cbslocal.com) discusses arbitration clause, this will be a test case for that.


----------



## jis

Exvalley said:


> These guys have been extremely successful in the past. I would not be so quick to brush them off.


Just because some lawyer succeeds does not make it less laughable. It just reduces the credibility of the legal system, which at present hangs on a precipice anyway.  I find this particularly entertaining given how the US takes a much holier than though attitude when they go after criticizing other country's legal systems, not to say that any of them are great or better or anything like that. But still the business about glass houses comes to mind from time to time.


----------



## Bierboy

IDs and photos of the fatalities -- Wife of one of three killed in Amtrak crash files wrongful death suit


----------



## NSC1109

jis said:


> Just because some lawyer succeeds does not make it less laughable. It just reduces the credibility of the legal system, which at present hangs on a precipice anyway.  I find this particularly entertaining given how the US takes a much holier than though attitude when they go after criticizing other country's legal systems, not to say that any of them are great or better or anything like that. But still the business about glass houses comes to mind from time to time.



Our lawsuit standards need to be seriously overhauled. IF they can prove negligence, then of course someone should be coughing up some dough. But the preliminary report isn’t even out yet. We have no idea what happened other than Amtrak was traveling below the speed limit and they derailed before reaching EBCS Buelow.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I always remember this one when talking about crazy lawsuits. Can't find anything about a settlement, so hopefully it was thrown out.



> Brenda Hurff of Washington Township, New Jersey, filed suit for $100,000 in damages after a fire was started in her kitchen by “unattended food.” Apparently, Mrs. Hurff had *put a cherry Pop-Tart in her toaster and had forgotten about it, as she left home to take her children to school.* When she returned, about 20 minutes later, she found firefighters extinguishing her flaming kitchen. Despite the warning on the Pop-Tart box not to “leave the toaster appliance unattended due to possible risk of fire,” Mrs. Hurff is suing Kellogg’s and Black & Decker, maker of the toaster, for damages.











Failure to heed warnings may lead to further disclaimers


Warning: This column is written by a professional. Amateurs attempting to re-create the deft use of language contained herein may experience writer’s block, frustration, stress, shameful dis…




www.pasadenastarnews.com


----------



## jis

Then again there is this arbitration clause thing.... apparently ....









Family Of Man Killed In Amtrak Derailment Files Suit, But Legal Loophole May Limit How Much You Can Recover From Amtrak


Lawsuits are being filed in connection with a deadly derailment involving an Amtrak train that departed from Chicago this past weekend, but getting hurt on an Amtrak train means you may not get any more for your injuries.




chicago.cbslocal.com


----------



## Exvalley

jis said:


> Then again there is this arbitration clause thing.... apparently ....


This will definitely be the first battle in this war.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> It’s a glitch on the tracker. Someone on FB said it’s showing km even though it says mph


Explains why I saw #66 going 169


----------



## Cal

josephr33 said:


> Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.
> 
> ‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)


I wouldn’t say clearly. Probable, sure, but not clearly. It does remind me of the Sabotage of the sunset, as they both happened in a remote location. But I don’t expect it to be related.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

josephr33 said:


> Either BNSF or Amtrak is clearly at fault here unless there was an earthquake. The lawsuit names Amtrak because Amtrak will pay even if BNSF is at fault. This came up in the Cayce SC crash. The following article provides some interesting context. Short summary of the article is basically that Amtrak agrees to take on liability for freight railroad foulups to try to maintain a decent working relationship.
> 
> ‘No-Fault’ Pacts with Railroads Hold Amtrak Liable for Accidents It Didn’t Cause (insurancejournal.com)


Maybe not an earthquake but possibly high winds? Though if they know about high winds they usually slow down, I believe.


----------



## Dakota 400

Bierboy said:


> IDs and photos of the fatalities



May they rest in peace.


----------



## oregon pioneer

Well, I liked the passenger's take in the video so much that I just booked my winter trip on the EB/LSL, to see my Sis in Boston (leaving WIH on Jan 9, return trip form BOS on Feb 4). Yep, I'll be at the back of the train, and probably in my roomette much of the time. I carefully noted the good advice here and there in this thread about protecting yourself in case of derailment. If anything happens (I'm predicting it won't, and trying to be prepared if it does), I'll be aware... and I won't be suing.


----------



## TrackWalker

Barb Stout said:


> Huh. I don't remember reading about this one. Is there a thread on the forum about it?



On the ground; Eastbound Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited last car derailed 4/21


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bierboy said:


> IDs and photos of the fatalities -- Wife of one of three killed in Amtrak crash files wrongful death suit



Very sad. 2 couples who were celebrating. :-(


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I have a major problem with the lopsided indemnity agreements that Amtrak is obliged to sign because of the massive disparity in network mileage. I do not have a problem with wrongful death lawsuits in general. Posting some article about an absurd filing proves nothing on its own because there are very few limits on what can be alleged before a potential suit is evaluated and cleared to move forward. Those who want to post examples of the American legal system giving consumers too much power should focus on suits with a public record of the final judgement. Otherwise we're stuck with guessing what may have happened.


----------



## me_little_me

MIRAILFAN said:


> Frivolous lawsuit.


I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.

In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.


----------



## Ryan

me_little_me said:


> ...the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.


If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.


----------



## LookingGlassTie

Ryan said:


> If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.



Yep, this.

If it can be determined/established that Amtrak and/or BNSF is at fault in any way, then they should be held accountable. The timing of the initial filing though just seems like a "shark sensing blood in the water" scenario.

Lawyers by and large aren't exactly known for altruism, just saying.

We'll see what happens.............


----------



## NSC1109

me_little_me said:


> I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.
> 
> In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.



Except the problem here is that the NTSB hasn’t even given a preliminary report as to what happened. We know two things:

7/27 was traveling UNDER the speed limit at the time of derailment (the lawsuit claims that the train failed to slow for the switch, called the Amtrak crew incompetent, etc)

7/27 derailed before the switch (lawsuit claims BNSF failed to operate the switch, signal, and PTC systems properly even though it doesn’t appear any of those systems had anything to do with the accident).

These idiots are literally throwing charges out there hoping something sticks. They’re even claiming that the crews did not abide by a rule book that’s not even in use west of Chicago.

Yes, I agree that if someone is responsible for the accident they should be called to answer for their actions or inactions. But it is WAY too early to be filing lawsuits and frankly if I were a member of the Amtrak crew and I knew I was called incompetent by some master of the universe personal claims lawyer I’d be hotter than the sun.


----------



## JoeBas

Your problem should be with the law not the lawyers. First to sue gets primacy rights, that's why they do it before the dust even settles. 

It's not personal, it's just... good business.


----------



## George Harris

In recent years some railroads have begun to fight claims for such things as grade crossing accidents that in the past they would rather settle than fight. As a result there are now a number of cases where the payout has been zero. If this becomes consistent, a lot of these ambulance chasers will have to find a new way to make a living. An in-law with lawyers in their family refers to these lawyers with the billboards and TV ads as "ambulance chasers" saying good lawyers can make a good living without doing that sort of stuff.


----------



## me_little_me

Ryan said:


> If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.


You are right. Lawyers want to be first for their benefit (gets others to sign up with them) and for the benefit of their clients (embarrasses Amtrak and BNSF in public). However, the victims have been damaged and either the RR and/or Amtrak were responsible. Virtually all accidents are preventable. One may feel the benefit outweighs the cost but the cost includes e.g. not only the money spent in more and/or better inspections, slower trains, etc. but the cost to human lives and property when the worst happens.


----------



## NorthShore

LookingGlassTie said:


> Yep, this.
> 
> If it can be determined/established that Amtrak and/or BNSF is at fault in any way, then they should be held accountable. The timing of the initial filing though just seems like a "shark sensing blood in the water" scenario.
> 
> Lawyers by and large aren't exactly known for altruism, just saying.
> 
> We'll see what happens.............



In some cases, filing fast can serve a purpose, particularly towards preservation of evidence and announcing that the matter will be taken seriously in call to account.

Of course, with NTSB investigating, all of that will be accomplished thoroughly, anyway, in this case.


----------



## John Bredin

JoeBas said:


> Your problem should be with the law not the lawyers. First to sue gets primacy rights, that's why they do it before the dust even settles.
> 
> It's not personal, it's just... good business.


There's also discovery to consider. It's not necessarily a consideration in a regulated transportation industry where the NTSB will be preserving evidence from the get-go, but preserving and obtaining evidence can be vital. [*NorthShore* got the point in faster.  ]

Sometimes, you think someone screwed up but you don't know until the evidence comes up in discovery. After all, you don't have the company records of that employee who may have screwed up or that machine that failed until you get them in discovery during litigation. And if you don't sue now, those records may, umm, "happen" to be shredded in the meantime. 

If litigation had to wait until you know before you could even sue, like some are suggesting, you may never know because the information on how the other guy came to do what he did (or not do what he didn't do) is rarely your information.

The flipside is that you reasonably believe someone screwed up but then the evidence in discovery shows they didn't. Suing somebody is a long way from a judgment or even a settlement. Filing a complaint ain't like putting a dollar in a machine and a candy bar mechanically and invariably drops out. (Heck, actual vending machines aren't that certain.) Defendants move to dismiss truly frivolous claims, complaints are amended as discovery reveals more evidence, and defendants are dismissed out if the evidence from discovery shows a defendant was definitely not negligent. 

Medical malpractice cases typically consist of suing every medical professional involved in treating the patient, not necessarily because the plaintiff or their attorney thinks every single one screwed up but to get the widest discovery, and then various defendants being dismissed out as the medical records show exactly who did exactly what exactly why.

While it's possible here that neither BNSF nor Amtrak was negligent and this was truly an accident, one or the other being responsible is a reasonable possibility and even both being responsible is theoretically possible. The fact that the apparent certitude attorneys project in a complaint -- which as others have said will almost surely be amended when BNSF, Amtrak, or both object to obvious errors -- can be off-putting or seem smug doesn't change that.


----------



## joelkfla

me_little_me said:


> Virtually all accidents are preventable.


That may be true, but failure to take extraordinary actions to prevent them isn't (or shouldn't be) culpable negligence.


----------



## neroden

Arbitration clause is disfavored by Congress and will probably be thrown out.


me_little_me said:


> I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.
> 
> In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.


Sometimes it's a local government which is being hit with punitive damages! 

Many plaintiffs will dedicate punitive damages to a registered charity which is devoted to making sure the same abuse doesn't happen again, which I think is a good way to handle it.


----------



## jis

NSC1109 said:


> Yes, I agree that if someone is responsible for the accident they should be called to answer for their actions or inactions. But it is WAY too early to be filing lawsuits and frankly if I were a member of the Amtrak crew and I knew I was called incompetent by some master of the universe personal claims lawyer I’d be hotter than the sun.


I agree. But this law suit is almost a poster child example of sanity compared to some the so called "Kraken" cases that were filed and litigated after the election.  It is only recently that a few of the lawyers involved have been sanctioned. So I guess all this is just par for the course in the legal profession these days, and courts are not really interested in fixing any of this. Perhaps they are already overextended dealing with all sort of BS. One wonders if this is sort of a real life denial of service attack unfolding.


----------



## Exvalley

If there was a problem with the track when the freight train rolled through earlier, this may get expensive for somebody.


----------



## happycamper

Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???


----------



## AmtrakBlue

happycamper said:


> Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???


3 people died and we probably won't know how, if ever, until the preliminary report comes out.


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> Many plaintiffs will dedicate punitive damages to a registered charity which is devoted to making sure the same abuse doesn't happen again, which I think is a good way to handle it.


Of course, the plaintiff's attorney, who is probably being paid on a contingency fee basis gets the fee sweetened by the amount of the punitive damages. 

And the defendant has to pay their attorney by the hour, so, unless they're a large corporation with very deep pockets, there's a limit as to how much they will fight the case. Heck, if costs more to fight the suit than to pay it out, even a corporation with deep pockets might just decide to settle even if there's little merit in the suit.


----------



## happycamper

AmtrakBlue said:


> 3 people died and we probably won't know how, if ever, until the preliminary report comes out.


It is very sad that anyone died at all. In looking at the accident I am thankful that more were not seriously hurt than there were. Just wandering if there is anything we can learn from it. Thank you for answering.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

happycamper said:


> Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???



It’s very likely that you won’t want to know the details. 

So much could have happened. In theory a sleeper could offer a little more safety but they can also trap you with no quick way of escape or receiving help. 

It’s extra tough to think about when so many of us love taking the train and think about how these 2 couples had planned and were looking forward to the trip.


----------



## jis

At least one of the fatalities according to various news reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.


----------



## George K

jis said:


> At least one of the fatalities according to various new reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.


Not really a surprise, considering how "wide open" the SSL is. During a sudden deceleration, there's a lot more room to "travel" as opposed to a roomette or a bedroom.


----------



## mvermeulen

jis said:


> At least one of the fatalities according to various new reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.



Here is a news report that describes what you list - Oklahoma father, son recount Amtrak derailment

I also haven't seen anything about the couple.


----------



## Cal

mvermeulen said:


> Here is a news report that describes what you list - Oklahoma father, son recount Amtrak derailment
> 
> I also haven't seen anything about the couple.


""We helped to unbury two people that were buried in the cafe car below us.""

I wonder what they were buried under.


----------



## MIrailfan

I read on Amtraks site that you agree to binding arbitration when you buy a ticket. *Terms and Conditions | Amtrak *


----------



## cocojacoby

happycamper said:


> Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???


The younger single man was in the lounge and his wife (who survived) was back in their sleeper room. I believe the older couple were in the Portland sleeper. This info is subject to change.


----------



## neroden

MIRAILFAN said:


> I read on Amtraks site that you agree to binding arbitration when you buy a ticket. *Terms and Conditions | Amtrak *


This has been objected to by a lot of members of *Congress* and it's questionable whether it's legal. We'll see.


----------



## Irelandvegas65

cocojacoby said:


> The younger single man was in the lounge and his wife (who survived) was back in their sleeper room. I believe the older couple were in the Portland sleeper. This info is subject to change.


Onboard in Montana now, Friday. A few things of note: Staff has been open and honest to questions. Clearly no “don’t talk about it” memo from HQ. commendable!

riding through the derailment site today, the area was cleaned up really well on the south side of the tracks.

slowed down to below 40 as we passed. No announcement.

great trip so far , very on time and impressed overall


----------



## Devil's Advocate

neroden said:


> This has been objected to by a lot of members of *Congress* and it's questionable whether it's legal. We'll see.


My guess is that the SCOTUS will rule in favor of binding arbitration even if it means protecting Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> My guess is that the SCOTUS will rule in favor of binding arbitration even if it means protecting Amtrak.


I don't think it'll make it there at this time. 3 deaths? These will all be settled pre-arbitration.

SCOTUS may have been replaced by the time an Amtrak case gets there, given how rare rail accidents are. Even more likely, Amtrak's binding arbitration clause may have been removed by legislation by then, since I know that was already in the works.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

neroden said:


> I don't think it'll make it there at this time. 3 deaths? These will all be settled pre-arbitration.
> 
> SCOTUS may have been replaced by the time an Amtrak case gets there, given how rare rail accidents are. Even more likely, Amtrak's binding arbitration clause may have been removed by legislation by then, since I know that was already in the works.



So Amtrak is losing there binding arbitration, will other companies that use or receive federal funding also be losing there ability to use binding arbitration?

How close of a relationship to the federal funding do you need to lose your ability to use binding arbitration?


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So Amtrak is losing there binding arbitration, will other companies that use or receive federal funding also be losing there ability to use binding arbitration?
> 
> How close of a relationship to the federal funding do you need to lose your ability to use binding arbitration?


The change prohibiting arbitration in lieu of using the normal legal system path in Amtrak Authorization applies only to Amtrak. Whether it sets any kind of general precedent is questionable. A more general approach at restricting arbitration clause usage needs to be tackled by the Congress, but anyone holding their breath on that one do so at their own grave peril.


----------



## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So Amtrak is losing there binding arbitration, will other companies that use or receive federal funding also be losing there ability to use binding arbitration?
> 
> How close of a relationship to the federal funding do you need to lose your ability to use binding arbitration?


Personally, I think binding arbitration should be allowed only between equals (both large companies, both medium companies, both small companies or individuals). Binding arbitration is heavily slanted towards the big guy.

So binding arbitration is okay between NS and Amtrak but not between me and either of them.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

me_little_me said:


> Personally, I think binding arbitration should be allowed only between equals (both large companies, both medium companies, both small companies or individuals). Binding arbitration is heavily slanted towards the big guy.
> 
> So binding arbitration is okay between NS and Amtrak but not between me and either of them.


If there was a truly neutral arbitration then it would not matter. However it seem you can pick and choose your person to do the arbitration so there is a conflict of money and future business sent your way.


----------



## dlagrua

There will probably be lawsuits due to injury and loss of life but we are yet to know who is to blame. Is it bad track that caused the derailment or is it because a wheel or truck detached from the old Superliner or faulty equipment?. A passenger reported hearing loud grinding noises just before the derailment so what does that day? I believe that the issue is that even if it is the fault of BNSF, their agreement with Amtrak says that they cannot be sued. This is one for the lawyers


----------



## zephyr17

dlagrua said:


> There will probably be lawsuits due to injury and loss of life but we are yet to know who is to blame. Is it bad track that caused the derailment or is it because a wheel or truck detached from the old Superliner or faulty equipment?. A passenger reported hearing loud grinding noises just before the derailment so what does that day? I believe that the issue is that even if it is the fault of BNSF, their agreement with Amtrak says that they cannot be sued. This is one for the lawyers


My understanding is even if it is totally BNSF's fault, Amtrak has to indemnify them per that agreement. Basically, if BNSF gets sued and is found liable, Amtrak has to pay the judgement.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> A passenger reported hearing loud grinding noises just before the derailment so what does that day?


Probably depends on where those people were in the consist. If they were in the Seattle section perhaps they heard the Portland cars derailing and tugging on the SSL before they separated. Or the SSL being dragged after it detached.


----------



## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> If there was a truly neutral arbitration then it would not matter. However it seem you can pick and choose your person to do the arbitration so there is a conflict of money and future business sent your way.


If you are the big guy, you likely know whether the arbitrators are pro-big, pro-small or neutral based on their history of decisions. The little guy does not. Most times, I believe, in big company arbitration, you pick someone, they pick someone and the two candidates select a third arbitrator to hear the case and decide. So Amtrak gets to pick someone they know. You get to pick someone who you know nothing about so now the odds are that you'll get stuck with someone who is pro-big guy when the two selections pick the final arbitrator.


----------



## Qapla

I expect to see Morgan & Morgan join the push to sue over this wreck ... they claim to be the largest accident law firm in the US


----------



## zephyr17

Qapla said:


> I expect to see Morgan & Morgan join the push to sue over this wreck ... they claim to be the largest accident law firm in the US


I'm expecting Dewey, Cheatum & Howe to jump in momentarily


----------



## John Santos

zephyr17 said:


> I'm expecting Dewey, Cheatum & Howe to jump in momentarily


I've been represented by Hugh Louis Dewey for many years, highly recommend the firm. He only takes 33% of any settlements (plus expenses, of course. I usually end up having to pay him...)


----------



## NW cannonball

My attorney Bernie -- I owe it all to him.


----------



## VentureForth

She was a newly married woman who lost her husband. The lawsuit will throw everything out there and amend as needed to get some sort of settlement. Doesn't Amtrak have a per-person limit as to liability? And, no, they won't likely get anything from BNSF - even if their CEO personally pulled spikes out of the ties and hacked the rails. Amtrak's indemnity clause. 

As for the cause of death of the three individuals, there may be a summary in the final NTSB report as there was in the 2005 Glendale Metrolink report. In that report, the cause of death was being crushed against the hard-bolted club table. Table didn't break away, no seatbelts, and tragedy.

In this particular wreck, the railfan who was interviewed several pages ago was in the SSL. Said he survived because he hung onto a table stanchion. Said the windows beneath him were gone and he could see ballast below an open gap between the toppled, moving SSL and the ground.


----------



## Exvalley

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> If there was a truly neutral arbitration then it would not matter. However it seem you can pick and choose your person to do the arbitration so there is a conflict of money and future business sent your way.


A major complaint with forced arbitration clauses is that finding a neutral arbitrator is impossible. 

Arbitrators are privately hired. They are selected by the parties. So if you are in professional arbitrator, who are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to? A customer of Amtrak that you will never see again, or Amtrak who may hire you for numerous cases in the future?


----------



## cirdan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Picture of the local fire department cut open the roof of a Superliner coach to gain access is online.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana
> 
> 
> JOPLIN, Mont. (AP) — A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board was at the site of an Amtrak derailment in north-central Montana that killed three people and left seven hospitalized Sunday, officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That going to be a major fix to bring it back to service. If they don’t just scrap it on site.



makes me wonder if local fire departments have any knowledge of Amtrak equipment, or how best to gain access for rescue purposes.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cirdan said:


> makes me wonder if local fire departments have any knowledge of Amtrak equipment, or how best to gain access for rescue purposes.


There was a deadhead SSL on that particular #7 that was dropped off in Lake City, MN for that exact purpose - to familiarize their local emergency responders with the SSL I imagine they've dropped of coaches & sleepers in the past


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Later pictures show that the local fire department was unsuccessful in gain access to the railcar. So no special training for passenger railcars. That said all 911 provided do the unusual and unexpected on a daily bases. So they adapted there plan to what was working and stop what was not. No two call out are the same. We can try with guild lines and SOP, but the event at the scene still have to be handle.

At large scale event a few years back all the EMS and Fire were stage in front. A 911 call came in from a house adjacent to the building. Call was for people injured on her lawn. The house was behind the building. You adjust and establish a secondary treatment/staging area. Got to roll with the punches, complaining and demanding people to follow your plan does not work.


----------



## Maglev

The SSL rescue practice in Lake City involved evacuating people through windows using ladders from an upright car. I have seen on the roof of LA commuter coaches an outline of the place to cut the roof open for evacuation, and there is also a chainsaw icon painted there. I do not fault first responders for trying to cut the roof open in the _Empire Builder _accident..


----------



## jis

I have been wondering what, if any, training, even in the form of documentation and perhaps use of animated video are used to train people on evacuating victims from a toppled car.


----------



## Rasputin

I noticed around 2005-06, the Budd cars used on the VIA Ocean had roof markings showing where the roof could be cut. I don't know when the markings were first installed or if they are still there. I assume it wasn't a practice limited to the Ocean and that the cars used on the Canadian had (or has) them as well .

I believe the NTSB report on the derailment of the Empire Builder at East Glacier, Montana on March 14, 1980 contained a recommendation that Amtrak install (or consider installing) roof hatches on its cars to facilitate evacuation in an emergency. I don't think I have seen much further discussion or consideration of this but perhaps I missed it.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> makes me wonder if local fire departments have any knowledge of Amtrak equipment, or how best to gain access for rescue purposes.


I'm not sure those are firefighters, and not just local citizens trying to help. There's no turnout gear in the photo.

Anyway, the odds of a twice-daily passenger train derailing and flipping within any one particular jurisdiction are so infinitesimal, why would every small town along an Amtrak line train for it?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

joelkfla said:


> I'm not sure those are firefighters, and not just local citizens trying to help. There's no turnout gear in the photo.


Yes the lack of turnout gear was noted. The wear of gloves by some was also noted. It was 90 degrees outside that day. Sure some of the people were just help out, just not sure a non trained person would even try to open a roof.


> Anyway, the odds of a twice-daily passenger train derailing and flipping within any one particular jurisdiction are so infinitesimal, why would every small town along an Amtrak line train for it?


Training for the rare hazards in your community is what you do. The common trash fire gets boring, got to spice it up to keep a volunteer force activity involved.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Yes the lack of turnout gear was noted. The wear of gloves by some was also noted. It was 90 degrees outside that day. Sure some of the people were just help out, just not sure a non trained person would even try to open a roof.


In this day and age where way too many people think they are universal experts at everything because they have read an article on the web, who knows what people will do. Dunning-Kruger can have dangerous or at least grossly undesirable outcomes if stretched too far.


----------



## flitcraft

jis said:


> In this day and age where way too many people think they are universal experts at everything because they have read an article on the web, who knows what people will do. Dunning-Kruger can have dangerous or at least grossly undesirable outcomes if stretched too far.



Probably the worst such case I know of, is one a number of years back where a Good Samaritan stopped at the scene of a one-car auto accident and saw that the driver seemed to be having trouble breathing. Unfortunately, the Good Samaritan happened to have been an Eagle Scout way back when, and thought he remembered how to do an emergency tracheotomy. Didn't end well. One of my former students got the wrongful death case, which required her to prove that there was not just negligence by the Eagle Scout but gross negligence. The case ultimately settled for insurance policy limits, but as she recounted it to me, all we could think of was "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Of course, if I had known about it then, we'd probably have invoked the Dunning-Kruger effect.


----------



## George K

Emergency tracheostomies frequently don't end well. Those done in the field almost never end well.

There are a lot of blood vessels in the way that can make things very messy, and very quickly.


----------



## John819

As General Schwarzkopf said, "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail." It would not be difficult for FEMA or state authorities to run training classes on dealing with railroad incidents (both freight and passenger) even if that would be beyond the abilities of each small community along the routes.


----------



## MARC Rider

flitcraft said:


> Probably the worst such case I know of, is one a number of years back where a Good Samaritan stopped at the scene of a one-car auto accident and saw that the driver seemed to be having trouble breathing. Unfortunately, the Good Samaritan happened to have been an Eagle Scout way back when, and thought he remembered how to do an emergency tracheotomy. Didn't end well. One of my former students got the wrongful death case, which required her to prove that there was not just negligence by the Eagle Scout but gross negligence. The case ultimately settled for insurance policy limits, but as she recounted it to me, all we could think of was "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Of course, if I had known about it then, we'd probably have invoked the Dunning-Kruger effect.


Hey, I was an Eagle Scout. They never taught us how to do emergency tracheotomies in the field. What kind of Boy Scouts did this guy belong to?


----------



## Cal

Rasputin said:


> I believe the NTSB report on the derailment of the Empire Builder at East Glacier, Montana on March 14, 1980 contained a recommendation that Amtrak install (or consider installing) roof hatches on its cars to facilitate evacuation in an emergency. I don't think I have seen much further discussion or consideration of this but perhaps I missed it.


Link to a site about that derailment?


----------



## Rasputin

Cal said:


> Link to a site about that derailment?


Sorry I don't have it.


----------



## priller

NTSB: Derailment of Amtrak Train No. 7, The Empire Builder, on Burlington Northern Track, Glacier Park, Montana,. March 14. 1980


----------



## WWW

So you are in a derailed Amtrak car:

ESCAPE OPTIONS:
Not through the floor
Not through the cab roof
Possible through the end of the car if not attached to another derailed car
One would have to be some 8+ feet tall to stand on the glass wall facing the ground to try and get out of the glass side facing skyward
Using the structure of the interior may/would shortened that height requirement or offer hand holds to climb out
The SSL may offer an opportunity to escape scooting out one of the large bottom facing windows

*****Thus the roof escape hatches would be an excellent idea - perhaps designed as skylights*****

Not factored in --- a derailed car resting in water

Even in a single level car a derailment presents problems with the potential escape ports available 

Escaping from a derailed train is not the same as would be expected in an airplane accident - cabin side up using escape slides etc.

Not all accidents occur on relatively flat terrain much like this recent one


----------



## Willbridge

The Canadian emergency markings may have been adopted after the February 1986 Hinton CN-VIA crash.

Over-dramatized but based on the investigation.



Previous findings in the VIA RDC crash at Carstairs were resolved by discontinuing the service.


----------



## NW cannonball

I totally like the drift here. From "what the F happened" to "what can I do? in an (air sea road train earthquake tsunami disaster)"" 
The NTSB's mandate is aimed at the carrier's and infrasrtructure's responsibility.
What I want to promote is what us humans can do (yes I have preschool grandkids), individually and collectively to reduce the risks of going anywhere.
From crossing a busy street as a 2-year-old to crossing a busy street as a 90-year-old with a cane.
Being calm and effective in a scary situation -- that's something that a very few people I know have learned -- bless them. 
How I could help in a tipped-over train car -- I dunno.
Like y'all.
Maybe needs a new thread


----------



## TrackWalker

Here's a start....









Training and Education


Training and education provide the whole community with knowledge, skills and abilities needed to help people before, during and after disasters.




www.fema.gov





-CERT


----------



## Eric in East County

WWW said:


> So you are in a derailed Amtrak car:
> 
> ESCAPE OPTIONS:
> Not through the floor
> Not through the cab roof
> Possible through the end of the car if not attached to another derailed car
> One would have to be some 8+ feet tall to stand on the glass wall facing the ground to try and get out of the glass side facing skyward
> Using the structure of the interior may/would shortened that height requirement or offer hand holds to climb out
> The SSL may offer an opportunity to escape scooting out one of the large bottom facing windows
> 
> *****Thus the roof escape hatches would be an excellent idea - perhaps designed as skylights*****
> 
> Not factored in --- a derailed car resting in water
> 
> Even in a single level car a derailment presents problems with the potential escape ports available
> 
> Escaping from a derailed train is not the same as would be expected in an airplane accident - cabin side up using escape slides etc.
> 
> Not all accidents occur on relatively flat terrain much like this recent one


A survivor's account which appears earlier in this thread explains how he was able to escape from the Sightseer Lounge Car.


----------



## frequentflyer

priller said:


> NTSB: Derailment of Amtrak Train No. 7, The Empire Builder, on Burlington Northern Track, Glacier Park, Montana,. March 14. 1980



That must have been the first derailment of a Superliner equipped train. EB started getting the Superliners in 1979.


----------



## basketmaker

Everybody is gonna sue everyone they can. I remember the American Airlines that engine fell off of on take-off in Chicago. They sued American, McDonnell-Douglas, the ground handling company(s), General Electric all the way down to the company that made the rivets that kept the plane together. The shysters are gonna go after whoever/whatever they can suck a buck out of. Then take their 33.3%.


----------



## WWW

basketmaker said:


> Everybody is gonna sue everyone they can. I remember the American Airlines that engine fell off of on take-off in Chicago. They sued American, McDonnell-Douglas, the ground handling company(s), General Electric all the way down to the company that made the rivets that kept the plane together. The shysters are gonna go after whoever/whatever they can suck a buck out of. Then take their 33.3%.


I witnessed a fatal traffic accident -
I was sued as a witness bystander for just being there -
The judge had some words for the lawyers - - - #@$&%?

The NTSB hasn't even completed its filing information about this accident - 
AND the ambulance chasers are already nipping at the heels of anyone involved - - -


----------



## Night Ranger

WWW said:


> I witnessed a fatal traffic accident -
> I was sued as a witness bystander for just being there -
> The judge had some words for the lawyers - - - #@$&%?
> 
> The NTSB hasn't even completed its filing information about this accident -
> AND the ambulance chasers are already nipping at the heels of anyone involved - - -


As a lawyer friend of mine once told me "99% of lawyers give the rest of the profession a bad name."


----------



## Siegmund

cirdan said:


> makes me wonder if local fire departments have any knowledge of Amtrak equipment, or how best to gain access for rescue purposes.



It will vary from department to department --- but in many areas, they do.

About three years ago, we had a very interesting exercise in my quiet little corner of Montana, where BNSF and Amtrak parked a couple of Superliners inside the Flathead Tunnel and set off smoke bombs inside the cars, and a crew from my local volunteer fire department learned how much space was available between the tunnel walls and the Superliner windows / just how hard it was to lower a person strapped to a stretcher almost-vertically through that space. 

I had the impression, but could be wrong, that several other fire departments in the state also practiced working on these same cars in the days before and after --- of course that training didn't include flipping them on their sides or cutting holes in the roofs.


----------



## Rasputin

Is it too early to tell how many of the cars on the train in this accident have returned to service and how many will need extensive repairs or be scrapped?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Rasputin said:


> Is it too early to tell how many of the cars on the train in this accident have returned to service and how many will need extensive repairs or be scrapped?


At least four are probably impounded while the NTSB does it’s investigation


----------



## Wolverine72

basketmaker said:


> Everybody is gonna sue everyone they can. I remember the American Airlines that engine fell off of on take-off in Chicago. They sued American, McDonnell-Douglas, the ground handling company(s), General Electric all the way down to the company that made the rivets that kept the plane together. The shysters are gonna go after whoever/whatever they can suck a buck out of. Then take their 33.3%.


Yep.
If there is an injury, in say an auto plant, plaintiff’s attorney writes down the name of and the contractors that installed every piece of equipment within two bays of accident site and sues them all. All those companies then have to pay attorneys to defend themselves. Yet all the while everyone knows they were completely innocent. In an auto plant case it is the employee‘s fault 90% of the time.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

basketmaker said:


> I remember the American Airlines that engine fell off of on take-off in Chicago. They sued American, McDonnell-Douglas, the ground handling company(s), General Electric all the way down to the company that made the rivets that kept the plane together.


This is literally how lawsuits are supposed to work. What is your alternative solution that does not require reading minds?



WWW said:


> I witnessed a fatal traffic accident I was sued as a witness bystander for just being there


Are you saying you were _subpoenaed_ as a witness? Was this on airport property back when you were an airline employee?



WWW said:


> The NTSB hasn't even completed its filing information about this accident AND the ambulance chasers are already nipping at the heels of anyone involved


As already explained filing the lawsuit as soon as possible puts the defendants on notice that they must retain potentially relevant evidence.


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## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> At least four are probably compounded while the NTSB does it’s investigation


Did you mean to say impounded?


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## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> Did you mean to say impounded?


Yes, thanks for catching that.


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> As already explained filing the lawsuit as soon as possible puts the defendants on notice that they must retain potentially relevant evidence.


A pre-suit preservation letter does the same thing.


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## west point

The American airlines accident cause was fairly straight forward. The maintenance director ordered hanger maintenance to use a fork lift instead of a non working engine lift. Non precision of forklift damaged the engine mounts. Engine snagged control cables that retracted leading edge devices on that side. Crew almost saved airplane just needed a couple more knots airspeed. Manager then AKA as " fork lift JOE "


The cause of that accident allowed an Air Florida captain with knowledge to abort a take off at MIA that had same problem even though airplane was well above lift off speed that saved the AF airplane. Fortunately took off on the very long extended runway. That runway extension caused FEC to build a horse shoe to the west to allow for the extension.


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## WWW

After the inspection and related stuff - where do the wrecked cars go to be repaired or have a future in beverage cans ?
Is that what is done at the Beech Grove facility at Indianapolis ? Or somewhere else on the West Coast ?


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## Just-Thinking-51

Superliner are maintained at Beech Grove. Beech Grove does heavy maintenance, and wrecked repairs.

However the three cars that roll on there side, and then we’re roll over the roof, onto there other side may not be worth the effort to get them to Beech Grove.

The railcars that were upright need to be inspected. The normal policy after a derailment is replace any wheels that hit the ground. The repairs may not be done at Beech Grove unless there other damage or if they are unsure ride quality of the railcars trucks.


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## Rasputin

Link to an article in the Flathead Beacon (Apologies if this has been posted before):









'I Saw Death and Destruction': Passenger Recalls Train Crash - Flathead Beacon


HELENA – An Oregon man said he survived a recent train derailment in Montana by holding onto a grab bar in the bathroom of a passenger car that ended up on its side and separated from the rest of the train. “I was on the left side (of the train car) and looking down at […]



flatheadbeacon.com


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## Cal

Rasputin said:


> Link to an article in the Flathead Beacon (Apologies if this has been posted before):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'I Saw Death and Destruction': Passenger Recalls Train Crash - Flathead Beacon
> 
> 
> HELENA – An Oregon man said he survived a recent train derailment in Montana by holding onto a grab bar in the bathroom of a passenger car that ended up on its side and separated from the rest of the train. “I was on the left side (of the train car) and looking down at […]
> 
> 
> 
> flatheadbeacon.com


It has not been posted before. 

"and the bathroom door, the lock failed for whatever reason, and it flew open.” 

Would just like to say that it might not have actually been locked. I have experienced a situation where the bathroom door was not actually locked, but believed to be locked because it was difficult to slide the handle past the point it was already at. This led to an embarrassing situation. Perhaps it was a similar situation.


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## TinCan782

Cal said:


> It has not been posted before.
> 
> "and the bathroom door, the lock failed for whatever reason, and it flew open.”
> 
> Would just like to say that it might not have actually been locked. I have experienced a situation where the bathroom door was not actually locked, but believed to be locked because it was difficult to slide the handle past the point it was already at. This led to an embarrassing situation. Perhaps it was a similar situation.


I think we've all had that "oops" happen with the latch on the door!


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## Rasputin

Cal said:


> "and the bathroom door, the lock failed for whatever reason, and it flew open.”
> 
> Would just like to say that it might not have actually been locked. I have experienced a situation where the bathroom door was not actually locked, but believed to be locked because it was difficult to slide the handle past the point it was already at. This led to an embarrassing situation. Perhaps it was a similar situation.


If I recall correctly (and corrections would be welcome) I think there is a minor difference between the bathroom locks in a Superliner sleeping car and a Superliner coach. In the sleeping car restrooms, there is a light which comes on when the lock is correctly engaged. In the coaches, there is a similar sliding lock in the restrooms but I don't seem to recall that there is a light which comes on to indicate when the lock is correctly engaged. 

Still, when a car is violently thrust on its side, it would not surprise me to discover that the locking mechanism could be disengaged by the impact and the door flung open.


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## Willbridge

Rasputin said:


> If I recall correctly (and corrections would be welcome) I think there is a minor difference between the bathroom locks in a Superliner sleeping car and a Superliner coach. In the sleeping car restrooms, there is a light which comes on when the lock is correctly engaged. In the coaches, there is a similar sliding lock in the restrooms but I don't seem to recall that there is a light which comes on to indicate when the lock is correctly engaged.
> 
> Still, when a car is violently thrust on its side, it would not surprise me to discover that the locking mechanism could be disengaged by the impact and the door flung open.


Having lots of experience in Superliner coaches I can explain why one wouldn't recall the "occupied" locked-door indicator. They are really tiny and often are bad-order. SO, you lock the door and the next user comes along and pounds on the door trying to get it to open. Over the years, that results in doors getting out of alignment, making it difficult or impossible to latch the door correctly.

Civilized trains like the Talgos let you know whether rest rooms are occupied or not before you might try to open the door.


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## sublib

FrensicPic said:


> I think we've all had that "oops" happen with the latch on the door!




Not only did the door fly open, but I'm sure the lid likely flew up, as well.
So perhaps one of the safest places could also offer some unique drawbacks.
Still better than being ground up in the glass, etc, I suppose.


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## me_little_me

Willbridge said:


> Civilized trains like the Talgos let you know whether rest rooms are occupied or not before you might try to open the door.


So do Viewliners and, I believe, superliners. There is a light near the ceiling by the doors for each restroom in coach when the room is locked.


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## joelkfla

me_little_me said:


> So do Viewliners and, I believe, superliners. There is a light near the ceiling by the doors for each restroom in coach when the room is locked.


Don't know whether this is typical, but on a trip on the Star last spring, of the 2 bathrooms in the coach, 1 light was working, and 1 was not.


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## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> Don't know whether this is typical, but on a trip on the Star last spring, of the 2 bathrooms in the coach, 1 light was working, and 1 was not.


Amtak maintenance vs Amtrak design.


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## Rasputin

Further update on the investigation. 

Another source indicates that five Amtrak cars involved in the derailment are still at Joplin, Montana and speculates that they will likely be scrapped.








Cause of Montana Amtrak Derailment Still Under Investigation - Flathead Beacon


HELENA – A preliminary report on the derailment of an Amtrak train in north-central Montana last month that killed three people and injured dozens more gave no information on the cause of the accident, but said the train’s emergency brakes were activated and that Amtrak estimated the damage at...



flatheadbeacon.com


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## MerchantSeaman

NTSB released information about Data Recorded at the time of the accident. More Data has to be analyzed for an understanding of the chain of events that front ended this accident. Data from sensors onboard the train & data from the owner/ operators of the track. Interviews of the train crews ,Passengers, track inspectors, manager's and relevant environmental data. 
Sort of like solving a mystery. Collecting clues for a written report on what caused the accident and a follow up on how to avoid another accident. my best guess it will be a year or more until the outcome is published.


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## Willbridge

A good neighbor follow-up:









Amtrak shows appreciation for response to September derailment


Amtrak was in Chester over the weekend to show its appreciation to the town and the surrounding region and to The American Red Cross for the assistance provided in a derailment west of Joplin Sept. 25. The derailment killed three people and injured dozens. Amtrak Executive Vice President/Chief...



www.havredailynews.com





I still remember how pathetic was VIA Rail's response after the Carstairs, Alberta RDC crash over three decades ago. In a remote region like the _Empire Builder _serves, a kind personal gesture will be remembered.


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