# Virginia service expansion



## jis (Jan 14, 2022)

> *Deal finalized to bring passenger rail to NRV *
> 
> The state has finalized the agreement with Norfolk Southern Corporation to expand passenger rail service to the New River Valley for the first time since 1979, Gov. Ralph Northam’s office announced Thursday.
> 
> ...











Deal finalized to bring passenger rail to NRV


It also includes a second train for Roanoke.




roanoke.com


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## SubwayNut (Jan 14, 2022)

Any word on if this will be a midday turn in Roanoke, or will they be storing a second trainset there overnight?


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## MARC Rider (Jan 14, 2022)

jis said:


> Deal finalized to bring passenger rail to NRV
> 
> 
> It also includes a second train for Roanoke.
> ...


What passenger train service was running in the New River Valley in 1979?


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## jis (Jan 14, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What passenger train service was running in the New River Valley in 1979?


The Hilltopper I presume.


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## RebelRider (Jan 14, 2022)

SubwayNut said:


> Any word on if this will be a midday turn in Roanoke, or will they be storing a second trainset there overnight?



No room at the inn for a second overnight train. It will be a mid-day turn. Look for an extension of 151 WAS-RNK. 67 will continue to NPN, but 66 will be flipped to originate from RNK. In its place, 186/124 will be extended to originate from NPN in the afternoons.


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## Amtrak25 (Jan 14, 2022)

If 67 carries the deadhead sleeper to Tidewater, how could 66 originate in Roanoke, unless they cut the sleeper off at DC ?


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## daybeers (Jan 14, 2022)

jis said:


> The Hilltopper I presume.


Interesting that back then, sleeper service was only available Boston-Washington like it is on 65/66/67 now.


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## Rex Block (Jan 15, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What passenger train service was running in the New River Valley in 1979?



Wiki confirms _Hilltopper_. (link) Before that it was the _Mountaineer._

It's a shame Blacksburg doesn't have any rail. Christiansburg is pretty close and just off of US460 and I-81, but a train to the heart of Blacksburg would be nice.


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## Rex Block (Jan 15, 2022)

jis said:


> Deal finalized to bring passenger rail to NRV
> 
> 
> It also includes a second train for Roanoke.
> ...



btw the article in the original post is behind a paywall. If you can't read it, there is more information at Railway Age. Highlights -

To expand service, Gov. Ralph Northam announced May 5, 2021 that the agreement includes:

• *$38.2 million *for the acquisition of approximately 28 miles of NS-owned right-of-way and existing tracks from Christiansburg to the Salem Crossovers west of Roanoke, and a passenger rail easement between the Salem Crossovers and the Amtrak Roanoke station platform. NS will continue to provide freight service on the line. (Note: easement details provided in the Jan. 13 announcement.)
• *$219 million* for Roanoke Yard improvements; a 7-mile siding from Nokesville to Calverton; the creation of a 22-mile continuous double-track corridor from Manassas to Remington; and improvements from Salem to Christiansburg, including signaling and track upgrades, a maintenance facility, a passenger platform, and other infrastructure work along the Route 29/Interstate 81 corridor.

The double track on the old Southern is sweet. This might open the door to more Charlottesville service.


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## jis (Jan 17, 2022)

Virginia Advances Plans to Return Rail to New River Valley - Railway Age


The Commonwealth of Virginia and Norfolk Southern (NS) have finalized a definitive agreement that will increase existing Amtrak service to Roanoke and expand service to the New River Valley, they reported on Jan. 13.




www.railwayage.com


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## Ryan (Jan 17, 2022)

Rex Block said:


> It's a shame Blacksburg doesn't have any rail. Christiansburg is pretty close and just off of US460 and I-81, but a train to the heart of Blacksburg would be nice.


The Christiansburg extension will be sufficient, there is already frequent mass transit service between the campus and the proposed areas for a station (which technically sits in a suburban strip mall hellscape between downtown C-burg and B-burg). My only dissapointement that my son will miss out on the extension if he graduates on time. He's a frequent patron of the current service and the second frequency starting this year is going to massively make the trip home better. I wish that all of this was in place when I was there 20 years ago.


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## neroden (Jan 18, 2022)

Note the state government's commitment to buying tracks, and where they can't, buying easements. This seems to be the way to get the Class Is to behave themselves.


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## Ziv (Jan 18, 2022)

$1.4Mn per mile of right of way and existing tracks. Not cheap but definitely worth it.
I wish more states would step up to the plate.



Rex Block said:


> btw the article in the original post is behind a paywall. If you can't read it, there is more information at Railway Age. Highlights -
> 
> To expand service, Gov. Ralph Northam announced May 5, 2021 that the agreement includes:
> 
> ...


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## SwedeC (Jan 18, 2022)

Help me understand the need for a seven-mile siding Nokesville-Calverton that is totally inside the double-track plan Manassas-Remington. TIA.


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## RebelRider (Jan 18, 2022)

SwedeC said:


> Help me understand the need for a seven-mile siding Nokesville-Calverton that is totally inside the double-track plan Manassas-Remington. TIA.



You are correct - the press release is a bit misleading. The railroad is already double track from the connection with CSX at Alexandria to Nokesville. They're not constructing a 7 mile siding, just adding back the second main track between Nokesville and Calverton. This will result in just over 45 miles of double track, though IMHO it should be double tracked from Remington to Mountain Run in Culpeper, as well. I do hope they put in universal crossovers at Nokesville and Calverton. NS loves their long chunks of double main line, but without crossovers in the middle they really are just passing sidings. No flexibility to both meet and overtake trains in the same area.


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## me_little_me (Jan 18, 2022)

I hope Bristol comes soon! Much closer to us and a beautiful station. With Bristol, Va, Bristol, TN abutting and Abingdon, VA as well as Johnson City and Kingsport, TN not that far away, there is a lot of potential in the Tri-Cities area. And for us down in western NC, it's an easy ride on scenic, low volume I-26 then a short ways on ugly I-81.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 18, 2022)

me_little_me said:


> I hope Bristol comes soon! Much closer to us and a beautiful station. With Bristol, Va, Bristol, TN abutting and Abingdon, VA as well as Johnson City and Kingsport, TN not that far away, there is a lot of potential in the Tri-Cities area. And for us down in western NC, it's an easy ride on scenic, low volume I-26 then a short ways on ugly I-81.


Hey, if they could get Tennesse to chip in some $$$, they could extend the train to Chattanooga, and then we'd have the Chattanooga Cho-Choo back!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jan 18, 2022)

It's been a while since either Chattanooga or Knoxville have had any rail service, isn't it?


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 19, 2022)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> It's been a while since either Chattanooga or Knoxville have had any rail service, isn't it?



Knoxville's last passenger train was the Southern Railway's Birmingham Special which was a Washington-Birmingham train via Roanoke and Bristol. Now this train ran up until 1975 in some form. The Southern abandoned this train in a crafty piecemeal style that killed the service. At first they didn't list them as thru trains across state lines, even though it kept the same number the train was split into Tennessee and Alabama sections. Then they would apply to the state to abandon the service and it was granted. So while some remnant of the Birmingham Special ran up until 1975 the part from Bristol to Birmingham was long gone by the April 1971 Official Guide. Remember the Norfolk & Western joined Amtrak in 1971 and Amtrak didn't chose to continue the truncated version down to Bristol so that was cut. But because of a clause with the Amtrak law any service you opted to keep after A Day had to stick around till 1975 before it could be discontinued. So the last remnant lasted till 1975 on a Washington-Lynchburg route oftentimes with just one coach on the head end of a piggyback train. 

As far as Chattanooga it lost service on A Day when the Louisville & Nashville's unnamed local was dropped. This train had previously been known as the Georgian and operated St. Louis, MO to Atlanta, GA. 

It's amazing how much random rail knowledge I know.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jan 19, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> It's amazing how much random rail knowledge I know.


Yes, that's true. And it was more informative than I've gotten from other sources too, I might add.


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## west point (Jan 20, 2022)

3"45 Roanoke <> Bristol is going to be hard to justify.


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## me_little_me (Jan 20, 2022)

west point said:


> 3"45 Roanoke <> Bristol is going to be hard to justify.


Huh? What does that mean?


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## Ryan (Jan 20, 2022)

It means that it's tough to justify a train that takes nearly 4 hours to do a journey that can be done in a little over half that by car.


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## Willbridge (Jan 21, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> As far as Chattanooga it lost service on A Day


And with it, they lost the Union Station. The remaining station, now a hotel, served the Southern.


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## Palmland (Jan 21, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> And with it, they lost the Union Station. The remaining station, now a hotel, served the Southern.


Some years ago TVRM had a regular excursion train from their museum station on a convoluted routing to the The Chattanooga Choo Choo - Downtown Chattanooga. I had great hopes the station would one day be used again for Amtrak. But, as Google maps will show you, rail access has now been obliterated by apartments. 

Perhaps a new station could be built in east Chattanooga on the NS near TVRM and the airport.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 21, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> And with it, they lost the Union Station. The remaining station, now a hotel, served the Southern.


I have stayed in the train station hotel, a fun stay. The hotel (train station) lobby is beautiful and my daughter played their piano. Their is an attached restaurant too, a little trendy and bar themed for my taste though. The overnight temps were dipping into the 20's and below so we were advised to keep the water faucets on a trickle to keep them from freezing. The heater was on maximum and it was still a bit chilly.

I do see the Google Maps mentioned a post up shows the tracks to get to it are gone


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## jamess (Feb 16, 2022)

Is there an indication of when the second Roanoke train would start?


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## jis (Feb 17, 2022)

jamess said:


> Is there an indication of when the second Roanoke train would start?


There apparently is equipment allocation for it for later this year. 

Here is what has been communicated by the State of VA officialdom who fund the service:









Virginia Advances Plans to Return Rail to New River Valley - Railway Age


The Commonwealth of Virginia and Norfolk Southern (NS) have finalized a definitive agreement that will increase existing Amtrak service to Roanoke and expand service to the New River Valley, they reported on Jan. 13.




www.railwayage.com


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 17, 2022)

Palmland said:


> Some years ago TVRM had a regular excursion train from their museum station on a convoluted routing to the The Chattanooga Choo Choo - Downtown Chattanooga. I had great hopes the station would one day be used again for Amtrak. But, as Google maps will show you, rail access has now been obliterated by apartments.
> 
> Perhaps a new station could be built in east Chattanooga on the NS near TVRM and the airport.



There were a few Amtrak charters that ran in and out of the Chattanooga Choo Choo over the years. 

The Choo Choo is the former Southern Railway “Terminal Station.” 

The CSX mainline goes right past the Chattanooga Airport so if that line was used to get to Atlanta it would be very nice for an intermodal station.


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## George Harris (Feb 17, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> As far as Chattanooga it lost service on A Day when the Louisville & Nashville's unnamed local was dropped. This train had previously been known as the Georgian and operated St. Louis, MO to Atlanta, GA.


I don't think you are all together correct in all the other parts of your other stuff, but I don't have the time or info at hand to check right now. However, here are a couple thoughts to expand information on the Georgian:
The Georgian was for many years the premier Chicago-Atlanta overnight train of the C&EI-L&N-NC&StL. In its later years realities began to result in a somewhat slower schedule, but even to the mid 60's it would normally have 2 to 3 sleepers, 4 or more coaches and through dining car service. In its later years it was combined between Chicago and Nashville with the Humming Bird which ran on a similar schedule north of Nashville but went to Birmingham, Montgomery, and Mobile. Yes the schedule went to New Orleans, but the Cincinatti originating portion carried the cars that went through to New Orleans. In something like 1966 the C&EI got permission to discontinue their portion of the train, which was the Chicago-Evansville part. Why they were allowed to do so is beyond me, because it was still carrying respectable passenger loadings up to its last day. For both these trains, the St. Louis to Evansville part was somewhat of an afterthought as the majority of the ridership from points south thereof was aimed toward Chicago. This part though was the part kept running until the last gasp of L&N (ex NC&StL portion) service into Atlanta.

Up until the early 1960's there were three trains between Nashville and Atlanta: The Dixie Flyer which ran daytime, with a late night departure / early morning arrival in Chicago, and an overnight local mail train. At one time, ending sometime in the 1950's this train carried a through sleeper Nashville to Knoxville that was put into the Tennessean at Chattanooga. Yes, this meant in some manner hauling it between the two stations. As a college student I made this transition between trains once in the 1960's, but that meant a 3:00 am walk between stations.


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## west point (Feb 17, 2022)

George : that heavy weight sleeper originally was Bristol - Nashville. Until the Pullman breakup the actual cars covering that line were never the same. At Nashville the car went on another line which I cannot find. At Bristol the car went on N&W 42 to Roanoke, N&W to Petersburg, then various times ACL or SAL depending on who was on time. Car at Richmond went somewhere else next night. Cars reverse directions as well. 
The cars both ways from Bristol were heavy political as there was no I-40 or I-81. You can guess correctly what persons had RR passes but not pullman passes.

After the breakup several cars were transferred to SOU RR.


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## jamess (Feb 19, 2022)

jis said:


> There apparently is equipment allocation for it for later this year.
> 
> Here is what has been communicated by the State of VA officialdom who fund the service:
> 
> ...



Is it likely to start with a regular schedule change on the NEC? And if so, when are those planned?


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## jis (Feb 19, 2022)

jamess said:


> Is it likely to start with a regular schedule change on the NEC? And if so, when are those planned?


It would appear that the second frequency to Roanoke could happen as early as before the end of FY22. I am not sure what "regular schedule change on the NEC" means anymore. They happily add and subtract trains and stoppages whenever they want these days.

The Christiansburg extension is apparently slated for FY24.


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## jamess (Apr 13, 2022)

Is it fair to assume the secnd Roanoke train wont happen before July at this point?


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2022)

jis said:


> The Christiansburg extension is apparently slated for FY24.



I've got 2025 stuck in my head from somewhere, as my son graduates from VT in '25 and my mental model is "awesome, but he'll never get to ride it". Would love for that to be wrong. He enjoys the train to Roanoke, but a shorter bus ride (or easily getting a ride from someone in town) is always better.



jamess said:


> Is it fair to assume the secnd Roanoke train wont happen before July at this point?


No insight, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a push to do it before the school year starts. The current schedule is awesome for getting back to town on Sunday, but awful for coming home (you either miss class and leave really early Friday, or wait and leave really early Saturday and don't get home (between DC and Baltimore for us) until midday. A later in the day departure will make that trip home a lot nicer. He's coming home in two weeks, and I'm making the drive to get him on Friday so he gets home at a reasonable time but sending him back on the train Sunday afternoon.


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## west point (Apr 13, 2022)

jamess said:


> Is it fair to assume the secnd Roanoke train wont happen before July at this point?


95% definitely not! Charlottesville (CVS) is the crew base for Roanoke trains. As well it is the base for the maybe Crescent to CLT and definitely WASH and Cardinal to Both WASH and west to ? Amtrak has not advertised for either Engineers or conductors there. It is highly unlikely that Amtrak would have any surplus T&E to transfer to CVS. AS well, unlikely even a fully rules qualified T&E from NS or CSX. Then you still have to route qualify them for the 4 separate routes from CVS.

Now we get to Amtrak having to hire new T&E from the street or better still present Amtrak employees. Screening applicants seems to take about 2 months. Then the training to be an engineer or conductor takes what 90 days? Then it is initial OJT training and then route qualifications as well. All in all do not expect any second train to Roanoke for at least 5 - 6 moths after T&E vacancies are advertised. 

Also, remember vacancies posted at CVS might mean someone retiring, quitting, or unlikely the Cardinal going daily.


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## jis (May 21, 2022)

Presentation on Virginia Passenger Rail Expansion Plan



The question of whether changes in leadership of the State every four years will impact the execution of this plan is dealt with in the first question that is answered in the Q&A session in the presentation.


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## Palmland (May 21, 2022)

Excellent presentation with lots of lessons that should be transferable to other states- like AL, MS, and LA!


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## MARC Rider (May 21, 2022)

jis said:


> The question of whether changes in leadership of the State every four years will impact the execution of this plan is dealt with in the first question that is answered in the Q&A session in the presentation.


For those not wishing to plow through the whole presentation, the bottom line is:

1) The plan will be administered by a rail authority in which the leadership has staggered terms that carry over from one gubernatorial administration to another. This is important, because Virginia has a strict 1-term limit on the governor, which means that long-terms plans in state government can be hard to maintain.

2) The new administration of Governor Youngkin, while of a different political party and different political philosophy than the previous administration, has, nevertheless shown support for this service expansion plan. This shows the benefits of making sure that passenger rail expansion never becomes a partisan issue.


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## jphjaxfl (May 22, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> For those not wishing to plow through the whole presentation, the bottom line is:
> 
> 1) The plan will be administered by a rail authority in which the leadership has staggered terms that carry over from one gubernatorial administration to another. This is important, because Virginia has a strict 1-term limit on the governor, which means that long-terms plans in state government can be hard to maintain.
> 
> 2) The new administration of Governor Youngkin, while of a different political party and different political philosophy than the previous administration, has, nevertheless shown support for this service expansion plan. This shows the benefits of making sure that passenger rail expansion never becomes a partisan issue.


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## Skyline (May 23, 2022)

As a Virginia resident, I've noticed the new governor (Youngkin-R) has made a point of reversing some of the priorities of the previous (Northam-D) administration. Is there any word on whether expanded pax rail will be embraced now?


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## jis (May 23, 2022)

Skyline said:


> As a Virginia resident, I've noticed the new governor (Youngkin-R) has made a point of reversing some of the priorities of the previous (Northam-D) administration. Is there any word on whether expanded pax rail will be embraced now?


That question has been answered just a few posts up this thread. Please read the post about it a few posts up this thread, for example this one:

Virginia Service Expansion

In short. they are not planning to change anything.


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## Ryan (May 24, 2022)

jamess said:


> Is it fair to assume the secnd Roanoke train wont happen before July at this point?





Ryan said:


> No insight, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a push to do it before the school year starts. The current schedule is awesome for getting back to town on Sunday, but awful for coming home (you either miss class and leave really early Friday, or wait and leave really early Saturday and don't get home (between DC and Baltimore for us) until midday. A later in the day departure will make that trip home a lot nicer. He's coming home in two weeks, and I'm making the drive to get him on Friday so he gets home at a reasonable time but sending him back on the train Sunday afternoon.


We have an answer! Not before July, but during July. This will be a great addition to the service with a very reasonable late-afternoon departure from Roanoke, great for Friday evening getting home from school. The return trip leaves DC around 8 and gets you back to Roanoke in the early afternoon.









Second Amtrak train out of Roanoke to begin running in July


Ride Amtrak without getting up at dawn?




roanoke.com


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## City of Miami (May 25, 2022)

I'm not finding mention of this anywhere else, not a word, not Amtrak, not VA DRPT, not Charlottesville local press. Seems specially odd considering Amtrak's inability to maintain staffing on current service. I also doubt his ridership figures - 19k trips to Roanoke in the month of April? No.


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## Skyline (May 25, 2022)

jis said:


> That question has been answered just a few posts up this thread. Please read the post about it a few posts up this thread, for example this one:
> 
> Virginia Service Expansion
> 
> In short. they are not planning to change anything.


Good news, at least as it concerns projects held over from the Northam administration. Any insights on Youngkin's views on pax rail in general, as it would affect other expansions within Virginia? I haven't read anything in VA or DC media about it.


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## jis (May 25, 2022)

Second Roanoke passenger train to start in July


Passenger rail service to and from the New River Valley won’t start until 2026, but a second train serving Roanoke could begin operating later this summer.




www.wdbj7.com


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 25, 2022)

Redacted


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## City of Miami (May 25, 2022)

"pending final agreement with Norfolk Southern and Amtrak"  that's a mighty big "pend"

Today 171 arrived was 1 minute early and departed 24 min late. Right now it's running 41 min late and will doubtless get later as happens when they don't depart before vre. At least in Roanoke the lone conductor can open all the doors on the high platform and all those hundreds of passengers can get off in less than 15 minutes.


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## daybeers (May 25, 2022)

City of Miami said:


> I also doubt his ridership figures - 19k trips to Roanoke in the month of April? No.


Correct. Virginia's fact sheet for 2019 says 59,056 for the whole year.

I agree it's far from confirmed if NS hasn't finalized the agreement, but I'm not sure why you're saying it takes 15 minutes for passengers to disembark. On a Regional in NYP it takes maybe one-two with 300-400 people.

Virginia is doing very well with its steady rail expansion.


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## jis (May 26, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Correct. Virginia's fact sheet for 2019 says 59,056 for the whole year.
> 
> I agree it's far from confirmed if NS hasn't finalized the agreement, but I'm not sure why you're saying it takes 15 minutes for passengers to disembark. On a Regional in NYP it takes maybe one-two with 300-400 people.
> 
> Virginia is doing very well with its steady rail expansion.


I believe the pending final agreement is about the details of the time table, and is not about whether the train will run or not.

Ther issue with boarding and disembarking time at CVS is that there is a large number of on and off there and apparently all doors cannot be opened at a low level platform station given the number of staff available to man them. No automatic door operation from a single control point at low level platforms. That could lead to excessive dwell time.


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## IndyLions (May 26, 2022)

I know i’m probably just asking for speculation, but does anybody have any idea as to why they haven’t invested more in modernizing the platforms at Charlottesville? It’s such a busy station and a wealthy area - and it surprises me that they haven’t poured more money into it.


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## daybeers (May 26, 2022)

jis said:


> Ther issue with boarding and disembarking time at CVS is that there is a large number of on and off there and apparently all doors cannot be opened at a low level platform station given the number of staff available to man them. No automatic door operation from a single control point at low level platforms. That could lead to excessive dwell time.


Ah yes of course, low-level platforms are terrible. I thought City was talking about it taking a while in Roanoke.


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## jamess (May 27, 2022)

Ryan said:


> We have an answer! Not before July, but during July. This will be a great addition to the service with a very reasonable late-afternoon departure from Roanoke, great for Friday evening getting home from school. The return trip leaves DC around 8 and gets you back to Roanoke in the early afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great to see. The times arent perfect, but they are useful. Having it start before the VT semester is great and very important.

Now onto a 3rd daily train!


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## jis (May 27, 2022)

IndyLions said:


> I know i’m probably just asking for speculation, but does anybody have any idea as to why they haven’t invested more in modernizing the platforms at Charlottesville? It’s such a busy station and a wealthy area - and it surprises me that they haven’t poured more money into it.


Here is an interesting article about the political and logistical winds that have been blowing across the Charlottesville Station. The article is from 2016, but it gives a good sense of the complexities.









Upgrades desired for Charlottesville’s Union Station


As Charlottesville waits for federal and state rail officials to work out the details of a second dedicated daily train, some want Union Station to be upgraded to accommodate more passengers. “We believe an upgraded station will improve service and make rail travel an even more attractive option...




www.cvilletomorrow.org





Incidentally the "Meredith Richards" quoted in this article is now the President of the Rail Passenger Association.


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## IndyLions (May 27, 2022)

jis said:


> Here is an interesting article about the political and logistical winds that have been blowing across the Charlottesville Station. The article is from 2016, but it gives a good sense of the complexities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Didn’t realize the station property is privately owned. That’s a problem.


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## City of Miami (May 28, 2022)

IndyLions said:


> I know i’m probably just asking for speculation, but does anybody have any idea as to why they haven’t invested more in modernizing the platforms at Charlottesville? It’s such a busy station and a wealthy area - and it surprises me that they haven’t poured more money into it.


It's busy for under an hour a day altogether. Far from investing more they (whoever they are) have downsized to a single agent on duty and he must have a split shift since he can't be there all the time. I haven't asked him about that but he did tell me he is now the only one. He is on the platform for the NER arrivals and opens from the outside an additional door, between BC & QC.


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## Palmland (May 28, 2022)

RebelRider said:


> No room at the inn for a second overnight train. It will be a mid-day turn. Look for an extension of 151 WAS-RNK. 67 will continue to NPN, but 66 will be flipped to originate from RNK. In its place, 186/124 will be extended to originate from NPN in the afternoons.


This was an earlier post and I was wondering if this was still the plan. This raises the question that if 66 originates in Roanoke, what happens to the sleeper when/if it returns. It will be interesting to see the new schedule.


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## IndyLions (May 29, 2022)

City of Miami said:


> It's busy for under an hour a day altogether. Far from investing more they (whoever they are) have downsized to a single agent on duty and he must have a split shift since he can't be there all the time. I haven't asked him about that but he did tell me he is now the only one. He is on the platform for the NER arrivals and opens from the outside an additional door, between BC & QC.



The investment needed is a capital investment in the platform(s) as a start. It really doesn’t need an investment in additional personnel at this point.


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## City of Miami (May 29, 2022)

There's nothing wrong with the platform - it's a lot better than the CSX one on the other side of the station for the Cardinal! All of the station platforms on the line between New Carrollton and Roanoke are low level, including WAS. I'm sure NS owns the platform as it's in their ROW so they decide. It's already double tracked through there so no room for a loading siding.


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## RebelRider (May 30, 2022)

IndyLions said:


> I know i’m probably just asking for speculation, but does anybody have any idea as to why they haven’t invested more in modernizing the platforms at Charlottesville? It’s such a busy station and a wealthy area - and it surprises me that they haven’t poured more money into it.



Upgrading the platform used by the Cardinal is in the works. I have no idea what the schedule is, but it is definitely an active project. The platform on the NS side for the Crescent and Regional trains is pretty good. Just needs better lighting, particularly under the Main St. bridge.



Palmland said:


> This was an earlier post and I was wondering if this was still the plan. This raises the question that if 66 originates in Roanoke, what happens to the sleeper when/if it returns. It will be interesting to see the new schedule.



The sleeper and baggage car will be removed and added at Washington. It'd be nice if passengers were allowed to occupy their rooms before 66 arrived, say starting at 8:30 PM, then be switch on when the train arrived. I doubt that'll happen though.


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## Palmland (May 30, 2022)

In the days of the Night Owl sleepers
could be boarded in Washington and Boston at 9:30pm. It could certainly be done but that would require the SCA to be on duty sooner, something Amtrak doesn’t seem to do.


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## RebelRider (May 31, 2022)

Palmland said:


> In the days of the Night Owl sleepers
> could be boarded in Washington and Boston at 9:30pm. It could certainly be done but that would require the SCA to be on duty sooner, something Amtrak doesn’t seem to do.



The Night Owl originated in WAS and departed around 10:10 PM, so being available for boarding at 9:30 PM wasn't a huge effort. The whole train would be spotted and ready. Boarding a standalone sleeper early in WAS could be done, but I'm not sure the benefit of boarding 30 minutes before departure when a terminal switch also has to be done would justify the effort in this case.

What was really nice for travelers was the Executive Sleeper. That car was cut-off in NYP when 66 arrived and passengers could remain in their rooms until 8 AM. Southbound, the Executive Sleeper was available for boarding beginning at 9:30 PM up until train departure at 3:45 AM. This allowed NYP passengers a full night sleep. Doubt NYP has the capacity to tie up a track until 8 AM these days, though.


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## Palmland (May 31, 2022)

RebelRider said:


> What was really nice for travelers was the Executive Sleeper.


Yes, I did something only a railfan would do. I was going to visit friends near Providence from Baltimore. Took the Executive sleeper to NYP, which worked as advertised (the heritage 10-6’s had such comfortable beds), then a corridor train in the morning the rest of the way. My rationale/excuse was I didn’t want to have them make the very early morning trip to the PVD station to pick me up.


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## jis (Jun 2, 2022)

This is the enabling funding for the NC half of the SEHSR Project. We have already seen fudning in Virginia for acquisition of the Virginia portion of right of way.









Raleigh-to-Richmond rail line gets a $58 million boost from the feds


This project has been in the works for more than a decade.




spectrumlocalnews.com


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## jis (Jun 2, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts about general eastern LD train staffing and equipment issues have been moved to their own thread:






Eastern LD train staffing and equipment discussion


Not enough sleepers for at least 3 years as none have been ordered yet.




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue that general discussion on this new thread and leave the current thread for Virignia rail expansion discussion.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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## Palmland (Jun 2, 2022)

jis said:


> This is the enabling funding for the NC half of the SEHSR Project. We have already seen fudning in Virginia for acquisition of the Virginia portion of right of way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is good to see. Maybe it will eventually happen and it should reduce travel times and, perhaps more importantly, freight train interference. Not sure why the report mentions Silver Meteor as I assume most Amtrak trains would go this way, although I suspect the Palmetto will remain on the present route to serve eastern NC cities and Charleston. 

If the S line was in existence today the Silver Star would take 9 hours Richmond to Savannah (based on 1985 schedule) versus 11 hours on the present circuitous route. Interesting, but not surprising, the 9 hours is about the same as today's route on the A line direct to Savannah. Not surprising because the Seaboard and Atlantic Coast Line were very competitive for the passenger business. Even though there was very little mileage difference, the Seaboard had to contend with more curves and hills. Presumably the SEHSR service will be considerably faster than 9 hours.


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## jis (Jun 5, 2022)

Among the June '22 CRISI grants is this bit of funding for renovation/upgrade of the Petersburg Ettrick station:



> *Virginia – Ettrick Station Improvements (Up to $6,355,829) *Virginia Passenger Rail Authority
> 
> The proposed project will make improvements to the station located in the Village of Ettrick, within Chesterfield County, Virginia. The project will make improvements to the existing station building and infrastructure and construct a new Americans with Disabilities Act-compliant 850-foot long platform. These collective improvements were designed to accommodate the future installation of a third track to accommodate the extension of the Southeast Corridor from Richmond to Raleigh. The project qualifies for the statutorily required set-aside for projects eligible under 49 U.S.C. § 22907(c)(2) that support the development of new intercity passenger rail service routes including alignments for existing routes. The Virginia Passenger Rail Authority will provide a 40 percent match.


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## jis (Jun 7, 2022)

Additional funding that Virginia will be seeking from the Infrastructure appropriation...









Virginia seeking more federal grants to carry out rail vision, including Richmond-Raleigh fast trains


A $58 million federal grant will put high-speed rail on a fast track between Richmond and Raleigh, North Carolina, but Virginia is fishing for bigger funding opportunities to carry out




richmond.com


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## west point (Jun 7, 2022)

Building the additional Long Bridge 2 main tracks is a key to the whole Virginia plan. Without it the possibilities of additional expansion may be limited to only 2 or 3 more round trips. The sooner the grant the quicker the bridge can be built.

As an aside the present Long Bridge is critical. Not only for passenger trains but freight. . Any closure of the bridge would cause a major rail freight disruption. Best be that another bridge completed as soon as possible, Finish the bridge as quickly as possible even if the 2 additional tracks are not complete.


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## Ryan (Jun 21, 2022)

7/11 is in fact the start date, and tickets can be booked:


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## leccy (Jun 28, 2022)

I haven't been able to find the answer to this question: which line is the "V-line" that VA is acquiring from Norfolk Southern?


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## RebelRider (Jun 29, 2022)

leccy said:


> I haven't been able to find the answer to this question: which line is the "V-line" that VA is acquiring from Norfolk Southern?



This is currently known as the NS Whitethorne District. It was originally the Virginian Railway prior to merging into the Norfolk and Western in 1959. If you look at Salem, VA, you'll see where the two different lines run parallel for a bit. The Whitethorne District is the southern most of the three tracks and is single track vs. the double track Christiansburg District.

The State of Virginia also has a transportation map here that labels the lines.


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## leccy (Jun 29, 2022)

Thanks! I have seen those district names on maps but not the letter names.


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## jis (Jul 1, 2022)

Rail News - VRE to contribute millions to advance passenger-rail expansion. For Railroad Career Professionals







www.progressiverailroading.com


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## west point (Jul 1, 2022)

jis said:


> Rail News - VRE to contribute millions to advance passenger-rail expansion. For Railroad Career Professionals
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Real Estate trans actions are always complicated especially going to different political jurisdictions. Does this allow for complete acquisition from CSX or are there still hoops to go thru?


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## JWJD126 (Jul 4, 2022)

I was poking around the Amtrak website and it looks like starting 7/11, Train 95 will *not* stop in Ashland, VA, but it will add 67 and 185. So right now, 95, 125, 93, and 85 service Ashland (southbound service), but next week, it will be 67, 185, 125, 93, and 85.


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## jis (Jul 10, 2022)

Folks in Suffolk want a station on the Norfolk route...









Suffolk residents advocate for Amtrak stop - The Suffolk News-Herald


For Suffolk native and frequent traveler Danny Epperson, watching an Amtrak train whisk through the city without stopping is frustrating.



www.suffolknewsherald.com


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## City of Miami (Jul 10, 2022)

Service starts tomorrow on the new NER 151 and 66 to/from Roanoke running counter to the current 171/176. I shall be at the stadium at 10:30 am and possibly 7pm to see what I can see. Amtrak has tickets for sale with absolutely no promotion or publicity I know of.


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## Ryan (Jul 11, 2022)

There was a good article in the Post. Second Amtrak-related one in a week or so.


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## City of Miami (Jul 11, 2022)

NER151 debut arrival in CVS was about 10 minutes late, not bad. There were 4 coaches followed by a food service car on the tail. A couple of dozen passengers detrained and at least a dozen boarded for points south. There were 2 conductors which is one more than usual in recent months.
My planned trip to NYC Wed was torpedoed by performance cancellations due to COVID-19 outbreak but Amtrak refunded my cheap fares to vouchers painlessly.


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## VAtrainfan (Jul 11, 2022)

jis said:


> Folks in Suffolk want a station on the Norfolk route...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The guy quoted in the article is a former coworker of mine. And one of Suffolk's loudest cheerleaders.

The article has some glaring errors (I-264 doesn't run through two tunnels for example, the Midtown Tunnel is US-58) and taking the train from Suffolk to Norfolk to go shopping is a pipe dream, because both outbound trains are in the morning and both inbound trains are at night. And no way is NS going to allow a commuter train on that route. But a NER stop in Suffolk would make DC/NYC trips more convenient for residents of Suffolk, Franklin, and Isle of Wight & Southampton counties. Downtown Suffolk to Norfolk is a 30-minute drive in traffic, and is 7 miles farther apart than RVR-ASD.


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## Ryan (Jul 11, 2022)

He also can't spell "Amtrack"right in his group name (or the paper munged it up).  

My in-laws live in "Suffolk", by which I mean "Damn near North Carolina". But I'll bet I could convince @SANSR to make the arduous drive up from Whaleyville to pick us up if we were dropped in Suffolk proper.


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## City of Miami (Jul 11, 2022)

NER 66 was almost an hour late this evening at CVS for her maiden voyage after leaving Lynchburg only a few minutes late. There were about 3 dozen people waiting to board. In the meantime NER 171 came in on time for a change and discharged the usual mob which of course confused people. There was a new station agent I'd never seen before who had a weak voice making her pretty much useless on the platform. The last car was BC as well as Cafe with I didn't notice this morning.
One interesting thing, there were 2 conductors on 66 but they were not the same 2 who went south on 151 this morning.


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## VAtrainfan (Jul 11, 2022)

Ryan said:


> He also can't spell "Amtrack"right in his group name (or the paper munged it up).
> 
> My in-laws live in "Suffolk", by which I mean "Damn near North Carolina". But I'll bet I could convince @SANSR to make the arduous drive up from Whaleyville to pick us up if we were dropped in Suffolk proper.


That was another error in the article.





Log in or sign up to view


See posts, photos and more on Facebook.




www.facebook.com





(for some reason, the forum is displaying the Facebook link in Cyrillic letters for me  )


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## Kirk2266 (Jul 12, 2022)

City of Miami said:


> Service starts tomorrow on the new NER 151 and 66 to/from Roanoke running counter to the current 171/176. I shall be at the stadium at 10:30 am and possibly 7pm to see what I can see. Amtrak has tickets for sale with absolutely no promotion or publicity I know of.


I'm from Virginia so it's nice to see Amtrak expanding some at least!


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## RebelRider (Jul 12, 2022)

JWJD126 said:


> I was poking around the Amtrak website and it looks like starting 7/11, Train 95 will *not* stop in Ashland, VA, but it will add 67 and 185. So right now, 95, 125, 93, and 85 service Ashland (southbound service), but next week, it will be 67, 185, 125, 93, and 85.



95 no longer makes Woodbridge, Quantico or Ashland. On the Roanoke side, 151 and 66 do not stop at Burke Center.



City of Miami said:


> One interesting thing, there were 2 conductors on 66 but they were not the same 2 who went south on 151 this morning.



All crews spend one night in Roanoke and come back the following day.


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## Heading North (Jul 12, 2022)

Any idea why 151/66 skip Burke Center? I know there’s only a single platform. It’s a shame considering that Burke has plenty of parking (same as when the stop at Franconia was discontinued years ago), while Alexandria doesn’t. Most people in Fairfax in particular need to drive the last mile, even if they’d rather take the train wherever they go.


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## City of Miami (Jul 12, 2022)

RebelRider said:


> All crews spend one night in Roanoke and come back the following day.


So I wonder if this could help crew rotation? The crew from 171 can lay over and take 66 back the next afternoon, the crew from 151 take 176 back to WAS next morning.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jul 13, 2022)

VAtrainfan said:


> (for some reason, the forum is displaying the Facebook link in Cyrillic letters for me  )


Must be one of those Russian cyberattacks


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## PVD (Jul 13, 2022)

I thought it only did that each year on February 14th.


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## RebelRider (Jul 13, 2022)

Heading North said:


> Any idea why 151/66 skip Burke Center? I know there’s only a single platform. It’s a shame considering that Burke has plenty of parking (same as when the stop at Franconia was discontinued years ago), while Alexandria doesn’t. Most people in Fairfax in particular need to drive the last mile, even if they’d rather take the train wherever they go.



Probably because 151 and 66 are running against the VRE flow. While there is no direct traffic conflict now, there might be future VRE service slated for those slots. 



City of Miami said:


> So I wonder if this could help crew rotation? The crew from 171 can lay over and take 66 back the next afternoon, the crew from 151 take 176 back to WAS next morning.



This is the way. It’s more efficient as previously T&E crews spent two nights in Roanoke as 171–>176 doesn’t work for hours of service.


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## VAtrainfan (Sep 1, 2022)

Virginia's Expanded Train Routes See Record-high Increase In Ridership

The restored NPN and new third NFK routes are credited with a 30% increase in ridership in July vs. June, and a 20% increase over July 2019.


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## west point (Sep 2, 2022)

Here is link to Amtrak press release









Ridership on Amtrak’s Virginia Routes Hits All-Time High - Amtrak Media


State-supported trains see nearly 30 percent increase RICHMOND — The Virginia Passenger Rail Authority (VPRA) and Amtrak announced today that ridership on



media.amtrak.com


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## TransitTyrant (Sep 2, 2022)

Running more trains leads to more ridership, maybe that model should be repeated elsewhere.


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## LookingGlassTie (Sep 2, 2022)

VAtrainfan said:


> The guy quoted in the article is a former coworker of mine. And one of Suffolk's loudest cheerleaders.
> 
> The article has some glaring errors (I-264 doesn't run through two tunnels for example, the Midtown Tunnel is US-58) and taking the train from Suffolk to Norfolk to go shopping is a pipe dream, because both outbound trains are in the morning and both inbound trains are at night. And no way is NS going to allow a commuter train on that route. But a NER stop in Suffolk would make DC/NYC trips more convenient for residents of Suffolk, Franklin, and Isle of Wight & Southampton counties. Downtown Suffolk to Norfolk is a 30-minute drive in traffic, and is 7 miles farther apart than RVR-ASD.


I think a stop in Suffolk would be a good idea. It's enough of a distance from the Norfolk station so that it wouldn't be "too close".

Speaking of Norfolk (or Newport News), do you think the NER will ever run from either of those stations directly to Roanoke? Or would that not be cost-effective in terms of ridership? Is such a route included in a long-range plan for Virginia?


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## Anthony V (Sep 3, 2022)

LookingGlassTie said:


> I think a stop in Suffolk would be a good idea. It's enough of a distance from the Norfolk station so that it wouldn't be "too close".
> 
> Speaking of Norfolk (or Newport News), do you think the NER will ever run from either of those stations directly to Roanoke? Or would that not be cost-effective in terms of ridership? Is such a route included in a long-range plan for Virginia?


Yes, Suffolk needs a stop on the NER. During the Mountaineer's short-lived existence, it stopped in Suffolk, and that was a long distance train. As far as service from NPN or NFK to RNK, there is currently a proposal to build such a service under the name "Commonwealth Corridor" It is proposed to run from NPN to Christiansburg via Charlottesville, Lynchburg, and Roanoke. It would be the first east-west passenger train service in Virginia since the Hilltopper was discontinued in 1979.


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## LookingGlassTie (Sep 3, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> Yes, Suffolk needs a stop on the NER. During the Mountaineer's short-lived existence, it stopped in Suffolk, and that was a long distance train. As far as service from NPN or NFK to RNK, there is currently a proposal to build such a service under the name "Commonwealth Corridor" It is proposed to run from NPN to Christiansburg via Charlottesville, Lynchburg, and Roanoke. It would be the first east-west passenger train service in Virginia since the Hilltopper was discontinued in 1979.


Ahhh ok.

Related question, did the Mountaineer and/or Hilltopper have a stop in Norfolk near Lamberts Point Terminals?


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## blueman271 (Sep 3, 2022)

I’m not an expert on SE VA but the article linked below seems to show an old Amtrak train, The Mountaineer, at a Lamberts Point Norfolk station.








Mountaineer (train) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Anthony V (Sep 5, 2022)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Ahhh ok.
> 
> Related question, did the Mountaineer and/or Hilltopper have a stop in Norfolk near Lamberts Point Terminals?


The Hilltopper did not serve the Suffolk or Norfolk Stations, and was only a restructuring of the Mountaineer elicited by congressional pressure from Senator Robert Byrd, who didn't want to lose service on the route through West Virginia when the Mountaineer was scheduled to be discontinued. IMO, because of it's redundancy with the Cardinal and its western terminus located in pretty much the middle of nowhere, the Hilltopper had no chance of success from the start, while the Mountaineer may have had a chance if it would've been marketed properly, as it served unique endpoints (Chicago-Norfolk) and intermediate stops, and provided another connection to the Florida trains from Chicago.


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## Palmland (Sep 5, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> …while the Mountaineer may have had a chance if it would've been marketed properly, as it served unique endpoints (Chicago-Norfolk) and intermediate stops, and provided another connection to the Florida trains from Chicago.


Perhaps there is an opportunity when the VA DOT starts service on the Buckingham Branch RR Charlottesville-Doswell and into Richmond to resurrect what the C&O did for so many years. Have the Cardinal split at Charlottesville with a Newport News (or Norfolk) section. 

Although, since they’re paying for it, more likely to have a separate train continuing to Lynchburg, as discussed in another thread, but maybe scheduled to connect to the Cardinal for tidewater customers wanting to go west.


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## Touchdowntom9 (Oct 25, 2022)

Dumb question but what is the difference between buying Right of Way vs Track? Does ROW imply that there is no track currently there (it may have been removed etc) or is the difference something else?


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## RebelRider (Oct 27, 2022)

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Dumb question but what is the difference between buying Right of Way vs Track? Does ROW imply that there is no track currently there (it may have been removed etc) or is the difference something else?



I should think that regardless of track being there or not, buying the underlying property from the railroad significantly reduces that railroad's property tax bill. They like that sort of thing.


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## Willbridge (Oct 27, 2022)

RebelRider said:


> I should think that regardless of track being there or not, buying the underlying property from the railroad significantly reduces that railroad's property tax bill. They like that sort of thing.


Note that methods of taxing railways differ from state to state. Both Colorado and Oregon, just as examples that I'm familiar with, use the Centrally Assessed Utilities Method. If track is in place, it's a railway. If not, it's a real estate investment. It's usually less tax for a weedy line than for a real estate parcel.

I believe that this goes back to before the one man - one vote ruling. It has the effect of shifting valuations from urban areas to rural assessments. This makes both the railway and rural legislators happy.


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## west point (Oct 27, 2022)

Clarification>> Virginia is buying the ROW just east of the west track to the property lines. That allows VA DOT to be able eventually have and own 2 main tracks from Franconia to Richmon Main Street. There are exceptions such as Alexandria and in Richmond.

From Washinfton 1st street tunnel to Franconia the Purchase is on west side. That will include the new Long Bridge west of present CSX 2 track long bridge. There willl be a flyover from the west side VA tracks to the east side. There will be at least a couple of CPs allowing emergency access from VA or CSX to the other RR.

How VA taxes the ROW is unknown but usually track and new signals are considered improvements. Now if it is the whole propery as your home or just the track ???


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## jis (Nov 1, 2022)

Even the rail friendly executives are ignorant to the point of making wrong assumptions leading to wrong decisions.

I am watching this Webinar (11/1/22) on Virginia rail improvement D. J. Stadler just said with a straight face that he cannot electrify the passenger trackage south of Washington DC using catenary because there is no way to build catenary that would allow operation of double stacks under it. Clearly he has never traveled north of Washington and bothered to look out the window between Baltimore and Wilmington. Sigh.

There is a reason that passenger rail development under these government bureaucrats is totally screwed up.


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## GDRRiley (Nov 1, 2022)

jis said:


> Even the rail friendly executives are ignorant to the point of making wrong assumptions leading to wrong decisions.
> 
> I am watching this Webinar (111/1/22) on Virginia rail improvement D. J. Stadler just said with a straight face that he cannot electrify the passenger trackage south of Washington DC using catenary because there is no way to build catenary that would allow operation of double stacks under it. Clearly he has never traveled north of Washington and bothered to look out the window between Baltimore and Wilmington. Sigh.


I'm so confused how thats even still an idea. Like we got photos of it with SEPTA trains next to double stack freights is that not enough to prove we can do so in this country


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## jis (Nov 1, 2022)

GDRRiley said:


> I'm so confused how thats even still an idea. Like we got photos of it with SEPTA trains next to double stack freights is that not enough to prove we can do so in this country


As I said, sometimes the ignorance of the so called executives managing our passenger rail system can be quite astounding.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Nov 1, 2022)

jis said:


> Even the rail friendly executives are ignorant to the point of making wrong assumptions leading to wrong decisions.
> 
> I am watching this Webinar (111/1/22) on Virginia rail improvement D. J. Stadler just said with a straight face that he cannot electrify the passenger trackage south of Washington DC using catenary because there is no way to build catenary that would allow operation of double stacks under it. Clearly he has never traveled north of Washington and bothered to look out the window between Baltimore and Wilmington. Sigh.
> 
> There is a reason that passenger rail development under these government bureaucrats is totally screwed up.


If we sent him to India to look at the double-stack electric freight I'm guessing his head would explode??


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## jis (Nov 1, 2022)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> If we sent him to India to look at the double-stack electric freight I'm guessing his head would explode??


Not to mention that Indian Railways is now over 90% electrified system-wide and 100% for trunk route main lines.

Stadler seems to thinks that he will just use more efficient diesel engines and call it a day. Talk about fossil


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## Anderson (Nov 1, 2022)

jis said:


> Not to mention that Indian Railways is now over 90% electrified system-wide and 100% for trunk route main lines.
> 
> Stadler seems to thinks that he will just use more efficient diesel engines and call it a day. Talk about fossil


So, he's a fossil fool? [Add a French accent for added comedy...]


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## Touchdowntom9 (Nov 3, 2022)

jis said:


> Even the rail friendly executives are ignorant to the point of making wrong assumptions leading to wrong decisions.
> 
> I am watching this Webinar (11/1/22) on Virginia rail improvement D. J. Stadler just said with a straight face that he cannot electrify the passenger trackage south of Washington DC using catenary because there is no way to build catenary that would allow operation of double stacks under it. Clearly he has never traveled north of Washington and bothered to look out the window between Baltimore and Wilmington. Sigh.
> 
> There is a reason that passenger rail development under these government bureaucrats is totally screwed up.


Why would he care though? Not like he’s at risk of being fired no matter how badly he performs at his job…. Man it would be great to have competent leadership


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