# Amtrak relocates to SPUD May 7 (includes old topic)



## jebr (Jan 14, 2013)

> Officials with the Regional Rail Authority said construction of a short track spur from the depot platform to mainline tracks that Amtrak shares with three freight lines will require careful coordination with the freight companies and the Federal Railroad Administration, including complex updates to a signalization system. The details have taken longer to work out than they expected, and construction is still in the design stage."The heavy volume of freight just to the east of Union Depot -- five percent of the nation's volume -- combined with the intermixing of three large railroads, has led to the development of a complex signal system for the area," said Josh Collins, a spokesman for the Regional Rail Authority. "Once the design work is completed and approved, which we expect to happen by early spring, crews will be able to complete the connection between the completed Union Depot tracks and the freight tracks."
> 
> Magliari said his office never publically announced when Amtrak would begin to pick up passengers at the depot, and he called previous announcements from the county or other sources "speculation." He reiterated the company's commitment to move into the century-old transit hub off Kellogg Boulevard.
> 
> The existing Midway Station off Transfer Road, which is Amtrak's sole stop in the Twin Cities, "served us well," Magliari said, "but this is going to be a much better facility for our passengers, because there's going to be connectively to the light rail and inter-city bus."


Source


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## Notelvis (Jan 14, 2013)

Still watching this project with great anticipation........ I think it's simply a case of the local interests underestimating how much effort it would take to coordinate the trackwork with three different railroads.


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## Train Rider (Jan 14, 2013)

The Empire Builder's extended evening stop at Midway Station is fantastic one night a year -- the opening night fireworks of the MN State Fair.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm impressed that the renovation of the Union Depot* train station* has been going on for years, yet the design work necessary to connect Union Depot to the tracks hasn't been completed, much less any construction. This really shows how poor the county's project management skills are, since one of the key aspects of a train station, at least in my view, is have trains stop at it.

At least the bicycle repair shop is opening this spring at the trainless train station. Isn't it?


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## Nathanael (Jan 14, 2013)

It sounds from the article like they're completely resignalling the junctions in the area, rather than just "patching in" the new tracks. This was *not* the original plan.

The area's overdue for a resignalling. It will probably also mean a change in dispatcher responsibilities -- the mainline tracks in this area currently have three dispatchers, with the handoffs being in inconvenient locations, which is just a bad situation. Every railroad involved has to sign a dispatching agreement.

If they're doing that, they're probably also prepping it so that minimal signal work will be necessary if the planned track changes (in the "East Metro Rail Capacity Study") are built -- since those would also require resignalling all the junctions in the area. In fact, if we're lucky, they may actually be *building* some of the East Metro Rail Capacity Study recommendations -- since these mainly benefit freight, the freight haulers may be willing to pay for them.

Given that I'm not surprised that this is taking longer than expected.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 15, 2013)

In the early days of the railroad. When two railroads cross the last one to build would be responsible for the safety of that crossing. Tower, signal, and personal to operator it. Of course the amount of trains crossing at that point would define the type of signal used. Smash boards and having all trains stop work on some lines, this location is a bit more busy.

I would think the designers/planners were outside of there knowledge base, about what is needed to connect the tracks together.

Same type of issues down in Miami.

.


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## cirdan (Jan 15, 2013)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I would think the designers/planners were outside of there knowledge base, about what is needed to connect the tracks together..


Isn't the whole point of project _*management *_that you bring together people with all the necessary skills andf knowledge and help them coordinate what they're doing.


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## Karl1459 (Jan 15, 2013)

The freight railroads may have simply taken a pessimistic view to the political/finiancial viability of the project and waited to invest any of their money until the station was a done deal. Remember Wisconsin/Scott Walker rug pullers are right next door.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 14, 2013)

Well, we might not have any trains at SPUD, but this weekend there will be an attempt to create the world's largest Lite Brite.

This morning Mrs. Ispolkom noticed that the switches on the west side of the station (which connect tracks that are unconnected to anything) had been carefully swept clean after last night's snow. Why, I wonder...


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## Nathanael (Feb 15, 2013)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> In the early days of the railroad. When two railroads cross the last one to build would be responsible for the safety of that crossing


This is what created the problems at St. Paul Union Depot. There are several criss-crosses (UP crosses north of CP, then south again; CP crosses BNSF repeatedly) with dispatching responsibility being divided up just as it was a hundred years ago. Apparently the decision has been made to untangle it.


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## NW cannonball (Feb 15, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> > In the early days of the railroad. When two railroads cross the last one to build would be responsible for the safety of that crossing
> ...


Hey mon, and Ispolkom too - yeah the various ROW down in the swamp between Hoffman (a giant interlocking - not like the famous "Zoo" but fairly complex with at least a 5-track crossover in the main part and then the Division Street and -- yeah)

"Several criss-crosses" yup -

But how the new depot plan didn't recognize the possible problems? -- no yo se.

Hoping the various roads agree - they probably will - but there will need to be at least a few new signals and switches installed down there in the swamp.

Me, like for the last 30 years, I go down there between the big sewer and the 3-4 railroads, I'm just curious and I walk there from time to time.

The smell is not very bad any more and what the various roads dispatch is interesting to me, me an old trainspotter or such.

*SO - *the new SPUD is really cool but won't connect to any of the UP, CP, BNSF lines in the sewer pit between Hoffman and Robert Street and Mississipi Street.

Until the unspecified private negotiations between Amtrak and the 3 (or more) ROW owners down there in the swamp get done.


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## NW cannonball (Feb 15, 2013)

jebr said:


> > Officials with the Regional Rail Authority said construction of a short track spur from the depot platform to mainline tracks that Amtrak shares with three freight lines will require careful coordination with the freight companies and the Federal Railroad Administration, including complex updates to a signalization system. The details have taken longer to work out than they expected, and construction is still in the design stage.
> >
> > "The heavy volume of freight just to the east of Union Depot -- five percent of the nation's volume -- combined with the intermixing of three large railroads, has led to the development of a complex signal system for the area," said Josh Collins, a spokesman for the Regional Rail Authority. "Once the design work is completed and approved, which we expect to happen by early spring, crews will be able to complete the connection between the completed Union Depot tracks and the freight tracks."
> >
> ...


The " three freight lines" are the BNSF, UP , and CP.

And they have been using the shared tracks down by the river with not much problem for the last 40 years or more.

Maybe they all are hoping to get some subsidy for the two switches it will take to get Amtrak into the new SPUD


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## CHamilton (Apr 3, 2013)

Amtrak link coming to Union Depot


> Work to install and connect new tracks that will carry Amtrak trains to St. Paul’s Union Depot is about to get under way.
> 
> The Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority on Tuesday approved a construction agreement with BNSF Railway that will allow work to begin this spring or summer on new signals and tracks needed to bring the passenger rail cars into the recently renovated Lowertown transit hub at 214 E. Fourth St.
> 
> ...


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## jebr (Apr 3, 2013)

As early as October. So...by the end of the year, if we're lucky?

Call me pessimistic about this. It should have been able to be done earlier...something failed along the way, I'm just not sure where.


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## TraneMan (Apr 4, 2013)

About time! I'd love to be there to see the first Empire Builder pulling in!


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## Trainut (Apr 5, 2013)

Latest story on SPUD found here. http://finance-commerce.com/2013/04/amtrak-link-coming-to-union-depot/


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## Ispolkom (Apr 25, 2013)

Mrs. Ispolkom works near SPUD. She got e-mail today indicating that construction work on the connection begins today.


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## CHamilton (Apr 26, 2013)

> The University of Minnesota Press is about to publish a fascinating new book on the St. Paul Union Depot written by John W. Diers. He has spent years doing the research and writing for this book and it includes excerpts from interviews with people who used the Depot. The Ramsey County Historical Society helped arrange these interviews. John Diers is a member of the RCHS Editorial Board and along with Aaron Isaacs is the author of the highly acclaimed book, Twin Cities by Trolley: The Streetcar Era in Minneapolis and St. Paul (2007).
> - Historical presentation and book signing by John Diers, author of St. Paul Union Depot, 3:00pm on Saturday, May 11, 2013 in the St. Paul Union Depot Waiting Room.


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## Anderson (Apr 27, 2013)

Since I keep seeing this thread, I keep thinking of Glados in Portal 2:
"I'm a potato...:"


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## NW cannonball (Apr 27, 2013)

I think of Frank Zappa and the vegetable song "Rutabaga rutabaga" (lots of rutabagas and sugar beets west of here in NODAK) The Moorhead Minnesota high school teams are the "spuds" (nearest - very near - AMTK stop is Fargo - the flood plain stop the high school mascot is a potato.) Yup us Minnesota peeps (some Irish potato famine flee'ers )-

Minnesota ain't Idaho - but yeah - we got SPUDS - let's hear it for SPUDS !

The work on the connection to SPUD has an auspicious start - looks like the long cold pre-spring here is over on the very day the work starts.

Me go walk the (wildlife refuge, swamp ,sewer, heart of the wye, many railroad properties, Superfund spots ) where the track work is happening.

Try and see how the work fits with the published planned rail projects from MSP east.


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## aurbo (Apr 27, 2013)

According to one of the conductors on the EB, the 807/808 will have to be disconnected/reconnected at the midway station due to the lack of space at the SPUD. So, they may have to stop at midway anyways. Anybody else heard of this?


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## NW cannonball (Apr 27, 2013)

Got no clue about that - there is a long tail track from the new SPUD that looks like it could hold several cars -- I'll visit the area soon.


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## lepearso (Apr 27, 2013)

I think by lack of space he means lack of a storage track. That would mean that the extra cars (807/808) will be disconnected at St. Paul and than hauled back to Midway for overnight storage. That's my best guess as to what the conductor was talking about.


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## Nathanael (Apr 28, 2013)

There is actually an extra storage track at SPUD, from the photos distributed by Ramsey County. It's connected only on one end. Apparently it's there at the request of Amtrak.... and yet from the same source, Amtrak still plans to disconnect private cars and 807/808 at Midway. So I don't know what the extra track is there for.

There may still be something else preventing it from being used. There's not much headroom on the west side to do switching using the road engine without fouling the mainlines, and there's not going to be a switching engine there. I don't know how the switches are going to be set up when they finally finish rebuilding things.


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## Anderson (Apr 28, 2013)

If I may offer a hypothesis, if MN is on any level serious about an additional CHI-MSP train, you'd probably want the storage track for that, so they may be keeping the disconnect at Midway so they don't have to negotiate their way back into that track later.


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## NW cannonball (Apr 28, 2013)

Yes there is already a storage track at least a quarter mile long east from SPUD.

Yes from SPUD there is no headroom to the west ( CP ex MW and UP ex CNW and GNW riverfront rights - and the drawbridge)

The tracks and trackage rights near SPUD is amazingly complicated - especially east from SPUD

I've posted about the "sewer", the "swamp" what it is really is the "Giant Wye" with even now only 3 railroads -

The whole lowlands east of SPUD and west of Hoffman interlocking could "possibly" be prime riverfront real estate.

I am happy that work has started. But I know from the various "planning documents" that any progress down in the swamp will be a long slow process.

The freight lines, the possible passenger lines, the needed upgrades and who will pay -- ??

It will be a long slow process optimizing the rails east of SPUD


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## CHamilton (Jun 10, 2013)

While we're waiting for Amtrak to arrive at SPUD, some friends of mine report that the depot was busy last night. From Facebook:



> Just woke up after staying up at the Northern Spark Art Festival till 4:00am. This year it was in St Paul in lowertown, centered around the Union Depot. The highlights -
> 
> 
> Instant Cinema is where we spent a lot of time. This was a three piece (although the pieces altered a bit) improvisational jazz ensemble with a conductor who wandered the event with a camera - the ensemble played to what the conductor chose to view. The ensemble instruments were bass clarinet or bass guitar, drums, and a very elaborate keyboard/synthesizer. I am not the biggest improvisational jazz fan but these people were good! We watched quite a few of their sets. They were set up in the perfect place in the station, as a mock teleportation station, just a few steps from the existential travel agency.
> ...


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## Ispolkom (Jun 18, 2013)

Yesterday I saw a sign at Midway station saying that Amtrak would move to SPUD on 1/13/14.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 19, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> Yesterday I saw a sign at Midway station saying that Amtrak would move to SPUD on 1/13/14.


Thankfully, 1/13/14 is not a Friday.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 19, 2013)

Dang, I am going through there in December and hoped we'd stop at SPUD instead of Midway. I wanted to check it out.


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## montana mike (Jun 19, 2013)

Isn't this date almost a year after the originally planned date? I recall reading in the MSP newspaper, on one of my trips last summer to that area, that December 2012 or january 2013 was the "projected" date for the possible switch!! I guess, as with just about everything else these days nothing is on time any more.

:-(


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## Train Rider (Jun 19, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> Yesterday I saw a sign at Midway station saying that Amtrak would move to SPUD on 1/13/14.


Only a few more months of free parking for those wanting to depart from MSP.....and one more opportunity to see the Minnesota State Fair fireworks during the extended EB stop.


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## jebr (Jun 19, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday I saw a sign at Midway station saying that Amtrak would move to SPUD on 1/13/14.
> ...


Are there any plans to add a stop somewhere outside of downtown for those that want the free parking? It's already pretty expensive to take the EB (often about the same as airfares, and much more expensive than Greyhound or Megabus.)


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2013)

Nope. I do wonder if they have a special rate for Amtrak passengers, though.

That said, I feel much better about parking a car and paying a nominal fee to know it's secure at SPUD than leave it exposed to the elements and potential break-ins in the Midway.


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## OldZephyr (Jun 19, 2013)

We live well over 100 miles from the Twin Cities, and our trips on the Builder often mean that we park our car for 7+ days. The ability to park our car for free at Midway Station has been an important reason to use Amtrak. Does anyone know what the parking situation will be at SPUD for long term Amtrak customers?


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## jebr (Jun 19, 2013)

OldZephyr said:


> We live well over 100 miles from the Twin Cities, and our trips on the Builder often mean that we park our car for 7+ days. The ability to park our car for free at Midway Station has been an important reason to use Amtrak. Does anyone know what the parking situation will be at SPUD for long term Amtrak customers?


Would either St. Cloud, MN or Red Wing, MN be somewhat "on the way" for you? Both of those have free parking.

Not sure what the story will be for parking at SPUD, though. I know the ramp/ride/fly in Minneapolis is $10 for the first day, $3 for each additional day. Once the light rail starts over to SPUD, you could park in Ramp C and take the light rail over.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 19, 2013)

OldZephyr said:


> We live well over 100 miles from the Twin Cities, and our trips on the Builder often mean that we park our car for 7+ days. The ability to park our car for free at Midway Station has been an important reason to use Amtrak. Does anyone know what the parking situation will be at SPUD for long term Amtrak customers?


I'd expect parking would be $5-$10 a day. Here's a listing of nearby parking ramps that might be a little out of date.


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2013)

There's plenty of parking options in downtown St Paul. I've paid as little as $3 to park in Union Depot after 5 PM.

Another option would be to park in the nearby Cray Plaza (formerly Galtier Plaza), which is just one block away. When the parking attendant isn't in the booth (generally after 6 PM), the ramp switches to "B" mode where you pay $10 cash for night/weekend parking. You could potentially park there for many days and only pay $10.

Another option would be to park at Sears for free just outside of DT and take the Green Line to the Union Depot.

Additionally, SPUD does have a section of their garage set aside for Amtrak long-term parking. I wonder if they would consider giving a validated voucher to Amtrak riders for discounted parking in SPUD.


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## Bus Nut (Jun 21, 2013)

Guest said:


> Another option would be to park at Sears for free just outside of DT and take the Green Line to the Union Depot..


I don't know the specifics of this case, but don't most retailers identify overnight parkers and tow them? I once left a car in a big mall parking lot past closing time to see a midnight opening night movie with friends and when I got back in the wee hours of the morning I got a notice that if I ever parked "overnight" (I guess past their closing time) again, I would be towed at my expense. :wacko: It was my mom's car so it gave me a bit of a fright.  I would have gladly taken the blankety-blank commuter rail if it went out that far, but it didn't. :angry2:


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2013)

The suggestion of parking at the airport doesn't make a lot of sense.

The reason SPUD charges for parking is because you are getting more now. The garage is secure and your car is protected from the elements. The cost to park at SPUD has always been very reasonable each time I've been there.

Your second best option is to take a taxi or get dropped off and picked up.


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## Train Rider (Jun 21, 2013)

jebr said:


> OldZephyr said:
> 
> 
> > We live well over 100 miles from the Twin Cities, and our trips on the Builder often mean that we park our car for 7+ days. The ability to park our car for free at Midway Station has been an important reason to use Amtrak. Does anyone know what the parking situation will be at SPUD for long term Amtrak customers?
> ...


To park at the airport and take the light rail you would have to take it first to downtown MPLS and then take the new line to St,. Paul. Better off walking from the airport


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## Train Rider (Jun 21, 2013)

A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 21, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > OldZephyr said:
> ...


Walking or bicycling to-from MSP is *not allowed* . Couple years back airport cops busted a bicycle rider - he got off the charge at some expense, cause there was no "no bicycle" warning sign -- now there is - can't walk or bicycle from MSP - it's *illegal. *Is it a security threat? who can say - but - you gotta take the light rail or the #54 bus to legally get off the airport. Or rent a car if you don't have one parked already.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 21, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> Train Rider said:
> 
> 
> > jebr said:
> ...


Umm, the airport's Web site has a bicycle access map. It's perfectly legal, apparently, to bicycle to the Humphrey Terminal. I do agree that it doesn't make much sense to park at the airport if you're taking a train from SPUD, especially since downtown St. Paul is not lacking in parking opportunities. *Jebr*'s Ramp C, though, is in downtown Minneapolis, making parking there a slightly less crazy idea.


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## Train Rider (Jun 21, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> Train Rider said:
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> > jebr said:
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I guess I used the wrong emoticon for defining a joke. I apologize.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 21, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> NW cannonball said:
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> > Train Rider said:
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No - right emoticon -- some of us are a bit OCD - and need an emoticon or two -- thanks.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 25, 2013)

From the Pioneer Press http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_23535681/union-depot-changes-amtrak-approved-by-ramsey-county



> On Tuesday, the seven-member board met as the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority and approved the final contracts necessary to install a signalization system on the depot track, as well as a revised term sheet with Union Pacific Railroad and an amended preliminary engineering agreement with BNSF Railway. Amtrak's Empire Builder, McDonough said, is still on track to begin stopping at the Union Depot platform in the fourth quarter of this year. The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year.


There had been some work done on the station tracks last time I was there about 2 weeks back. Switch machines and switch heaters installed at either end of the platform tacks and some crossties and rail piled at the west end, apparently for the connection to the UP and/or CP main.

Progress, but slow.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 25, 2013)

The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 26, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.


Being from Texas this sure sounds Familiar!  :help: (And the Folks in Hope, Arkansas sure can Relate also!)


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## Observer (Jun 26, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.


A second stop for the Twin Cities would be pointless. A better option would be to extend Northstar Commuter line to SPUD.


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## jebr (Jun 26, 2013)

Observer said:


> Train Rider said:
> 
> 
> > A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.
> ...


While extending the Northstar to SPUD would be a good option, that would have to be accompanied by much more frequent service to be useful to those transferring to Amtrak. Going east to Chicago the connection would work, but those arriving at that time would not have service out on the Northstar currently, and no one coming in or departing on 7/27 would have service.

Putting a second stop in Fridley or Coon Rapids (or maybe Anoka?) right at the Northstar stop would be a much easier option than extending the Northstar, and it would still allow free parking for Amtrak customers that want to arrive by car. The station is there with overnight parking set up already. All the train needs to do is stop and pick up passengers. (There wouldn't be checked baggage, but with Amtrak's current lax policy with carry-ons a Northstar connection would lead to the same luggage scenario.)


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## Observer (Jun 26, 2013)

The Empire Builder is already prone to so many delays that they aren't going to want to add one more stop when they already have one nearby in St Paul.

Even if Amtrak riders may not get the max benefit from extended Northstar to SPUD, likewise they wouldn't exactly get benefit by placing an additional stop at Fridley/Coon Rapids/Mpls "Interchange", given the difference of when the trains make their stops.

The intent of the Union Depot's restoration is to act as a transit hub. It's pure folly that the Northstar connects to neither St Paul nor St Cloud, which directly hampers the line's usefulness and ridership. The only way to get a return on the $250 million investment is to connect trains to it.


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## Nathanael (Jun 27, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.


Oh, they did OK. When you remember that this required negotiation with Union Pacific, which has gotten an infamous reputation, a year's delay doesn't seem too bad.
It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.

Regarding Northstar, it was cut back to Big Lake by the Bush administration "cost-effectiveness" bull, which was quite deliberately biased against better projects. I consider that outright sabotage of the project, and it really does need to go to St. Cloud.

Ramsey County is still trying to get commuter service on the so-called "Red Rock Corridor" to Hastings, and for some reason the plan is to extend that through SPUD to Minneapolis as the "express" Minneapolis-St. Paul train. That's been going exceptionally slowly for some reason.


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## WICT106 (Jun 27, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.
> 
> Regarding Northstar, it was cut back to Big Lake by the Bush administration "cost-effectiveness" bull, which was quite deliberately biased against better projects. I consider that outright sabotage of the project, and it really does need to go to St. Cloud.


A couple little points:

1. I think you meant to type that the trains leave for BNSF to the west, & CP to the eastward.

2. Concur with your statements regarding having the Northstar Rail ending in Saint Cloud. It will be better to end in a metro area of over 100 000 residents vs. ending the line in the middle of nowhere (Big Lake).


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## Train Rider (Jun 27, 2013)

Observer said:


> Train Rider said:
> 
> 
> > A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.
> ...


One doesn't cost a ton of money and has a better chance of happening than the other. Metra and Amtrak in Chicago share several station stops so sharing a Northstar platform is not a novel idea. Downtown St. Paul might as well be the moon to the western side of the Twin Cities metro area.


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## Observer (Jun 27, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> Observer said:
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> > Train Rider said:
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## Train Rider (Jun 27, 2013)

Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.

As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking. What will always be a disadvantage to train travel is that stations are fixed points in a mobile society and elevating the inconvenience to the potential train traveler such as parking costs and distant locations put Amtrak off of many people's radar as an option.

A platform station doesn't do major things and its not at all sexy to the trainiacs lusting over a Northstar extension that won't happen. What it does do is provide an option and eliminate some inconvenience to a large population base that has been introduced to train travel via the Northstar line.

The best thing about using an existing platform is that Amtrak can try it and if it doesn't work out than it can be dropped. Not everything regarding train expansion needs to involve multi-million projects where politicians get to cut a ribbon.


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## Train Rider (Jun 27, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.
> As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking. What will always be a disadvantage to train travel is that stations are fixed points in a mobile society and elevating the inconvenience to the potential train traveler such as parking costs and distant locations put Amtrak off of many people's radar as an option.
> 
> A platform station doesn't do major things and its not at all sexy to the trainiacs lusting over a Northstar extension that won't happen. What it does do is provide an option and eliminate some inconvenience to a large population base that has been introduced to train travel via the Northstar line.
> ...


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## Observer (Jun 27, 2013)

Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.

I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?

Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.


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## jebr (Jun 27, 2013)

Observer said:


> Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.
> I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?
> 
> Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.


While I agree that SPUD should be our intermodal hub, I also think that there are plenty of people who take the train in part because of the free parking. SPUD, as far as any of us know, won't have that. Having a stop in Fridley (for example) would give the option for free parking, assuming Metro Transit would be keen to the idea (as more spots would need to be dedicated.)

Historically, there's been more than one station in the MSP area. Some were used by different railroad companies, but while SPUD may have been the main one, it certainly wasn't the only one. Adding an additional stop does take time, but I can't see it adding more than 5-10 minutes to the schedule, which is pretty small in the scheme of things if it will add customers. I'm not sure how it would lose money for Amtrak on any regular basis. Maybe they'll have to negotiate with Metro Transit on a price, but maybe Metro Transit will allow it for minimal cost. There wouldn't need to be any staff there - make it a stop like Staples or Detroit Lakes where the station is unstaffed. The only "cost" would be the time, which seems pretty small in comparison to the advantage it could have in keeping people on the train.

Even if SPUD became the intermodal center, the EB's schedule (7/27) aligned with Metro Transit's schedule could make for bad results for anyone relying on service outside of the core. The train, on a good day, gets in around 10:30-11 PM. Just yesterday the train was aruond an hour and a half late. Very few buses run at that time of night, which leaves only the option of parking at the station. Even if, somehow, the EB was never late coming in, there's still the convenience of a one-seat ride, instead of a transfer somewhere. Adding that additional transfer or paying for parking would have at least some people reconsider the train and look at the airlines instead. The EB costs about the same as the airlines for a ticket from MSP to CHI, and it's twice as fast, even taking into account TSA woes.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 27, 2013)

WICT106 said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.
> ...


About point 1. -- it depends -

For the MSP metro area, yes, trains leave on BNSF to the west, and CP to the east.

BUT - at SPUD - it's roughly the other way around.

West from SPUD the CP "short line" carries Amtrak about 7 miles past the <defunct> Ford Plant spur and through residential neighborhoods to the current Midway Station and another mile-and-a-half west from there before connecting to the BNSF multi-main-lines and on to the far west.

East from SPUD -- oh my -- somehow, after getting across what seems to be UP ROW now - Amtrak will "somehow" get on the CP -- but only through the BNSF controlled Hoffman interlocking - the biggest and most complicated one in this metro area - and on to the CP-BNSF joint line from Hoffman to the eastward. The two main tracks all the way to Hastings -- one is owned and maintained by CP, one by BNSF, but both, and Hoffman, are dispatched by BNSF.

BUT -- that's only a small bit of the complexity - especially east from SPUD. And the history -- there "used to be" many more railroads through the "near eastward" from SPUD - enough.

so I think Nathaniel's point



> It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.


Is basically correct.

Yup - historical reasons --

I think that here in MSP - and a lot of other places - a team of at least 4 grad students - in - say - Transport Law, Transport Economics, History, and Urban Planning -- could get a shared thesis out of this case study. :unsure:


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## jphjaxfl (Jun 28, 2013)

Observer said:


> Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.
> I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?
> 
> Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.


Having lived in the Twin Cities for a number of years and riding many train into the Twin Cities, pre Amtrak, all trains stopped at both St Paul Union Depot and Minneapolis Great Northern Depot or Minneapolis Milwaukee Depot except for Minneapolis and St. Louis Railroad trains which originated at the Minneapolis Great Northern Depot. Great Northern Depot in Minneapolis was used by trains of the Burlington, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Chicago and Northwestern, Chicago Great Western and Minneapolis and St. Louis. Milwaukee Road Depot(which is now a hotel) was used by Milwaukee Road, Rock Island and Soo Line. Both Great Northern and Northern Pacific had their own rail lines between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but they had to back into St. Paul Union Station. Burlington and Northwestern trains used the Great Northern line from Minneapolis to St. Paul and also had to back into St. Paul Union Station. Soo line had their own line from Minneapolis to St. Paul which took a more northerly route than GN or NP. All passenger trains of the Milwaukee, Rock Island and Soo Line used Milwaukee Road's Minneapolis and St. Paul line partially used by the Empire Builder today. When Amtrak started, the number of passengers boarding trains from Minneapolis was higher than at St. Paul which is why Amtrak chose to use Minneapolis' Great Northern Station as their station for the Twin Cities. Amtrak trains going to Chicago used the former Great Northern rail line from Minneapolis to St. Paul and completely by passed St. Paul Union Depot. Unfortunately, BN sold the beautiful Great Northern Depot in Minneapolis which is where the Federal Reserve Bank is now located. The new St. Paul Midway station was built on the Minnesota Transfer railline which connects BNSF's (former NP) line with CP's (former Milwaukee line). I would say that very few people in Minneapolis and western suburbs will travel to St. Paul Union Depot to take the train. They are more likely to go to the airport and fly.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2013)

> When Amtrak started, the number of passengers boarding trains from Minneapolis was higher than at St. Paul which is why Amtrak chose to use Minneapolis' Great Northern Station as their station for the Twin Cities.



I don't believe that was a true factor in Amtrak's decision to use the Great Northern Station. SPUD was several times larger than the Great Northern Station, requiring greater maintenance expenses, and by the 1970s SPUD was in need of a renovation. Amtrak understandably couldn't make the business case to use SPUD at that time.

In fact, in the early 1980s, plans were floated to convert SPUD into a Children's Museum and at that point Amtrak expressed interest in relocating there - even going as far as drawing up plans to do so.

Pre-Amtrak, just about every passenger train that rolled through MSP made a stop at SPUD, per the operating agreements of the day.


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## Nathanael (Jun 28, 2013)

Train Rider said:


> Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.
> As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking.


(1) SPUD has huge amounts of parking. I'm not sure if it's all opened yet, but it really does have a lot of parking -- most of the area underneath the train deck, and if I remember correctly some more under the main building. I don't know how much it costs, but there's a lot of it.

(2) SPUD is quite close to exits from I-94 and I-35E going in both directions. Yes, drivers will have to go through a bit of downtown St. Paul, and the routes aren't *simple* thanks to the one-way streets, but it's a short distance and downtown St. Paul never has much traffic congestion.

Stopping the Empire Builder at the Northstar station in Minneapolis would be reasonable except for the need to back in, blocking the wye and the mainline for long periods and adding delays of all sorts; be assured that BNSF would demand substantial improvements in exchange for that.

Unfortunately the line through Monticello and Clearwater (which would allow a straight-through move) was severed some time back. And the line through Willmar (which would also allow a straight-through move) is currently slow, as well as skipping several current stops.

None of the stations on Northstar between St. Cloud and Minneapolis are likely to generate enough ridership to be worth stopping at; they would also require longer platforms (at great expense) for the Empire Builder to use them. I could see a case for stopping at Coon Rapids Foley Boulevard if it is ever built, but only if the extra money was put in for the necessary extra-long platforms.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 28, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.
> ...


Huh? They spent *three* years rebuilding SPUD, and Lord knows how many years planning, and they didn't get agreement with UP until months *after* the station opened. How could that be considered competent, especially since the county commissioners (who are also the Ramsey County Railroad Authority) didn't even know they didn't have any agreement.

How can you open a train station that cost a quarter of a billion dollars without any connection to tracks? I'll admit the SPUD debacle isn't as mortifying as the spectacle they made trying to get the Vikings stadium, but as an irritant it's right up there with the water utility telling us a) to conserve water, and b) that they are raising rates because water consumption is down.


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## Parking (Jun 28, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> (1) SPUD has huge amounts of parking. I'm not sure if it's all opened yet, but it really does have a lot of parking -- most of the area underneath the train deck, and if I remember correctly some more under the main building. I don't know how much it costs, but there's a lot of it.(2) SPUD is quite close to exits from I-94 and I-35E going in both directions. Yes, drivers will have to go through a bit of downtown St. Paul, and the routes aren't *simple* thanks to the one-way streets, but it's a short distance and downtown St. Paul never has much traffic congestion.


Depending on what lot you park in and what day(s) of the week the price ranges from $3/day to $20/day.

Under the Headhouse is a heated parking garage, which is also most expensive. I find it to be rather narrow in there, so I only parked there once.

The parking under the train deck has always been reasonably priced. Especially in the winter months when there is snow, I have no qualms about paying to park so that I don't have to scrape my car.

And directly adjacent to the train deck parking is another lot that is exposed to the elements. This also offers the best prices.

There is some whining about the prices.. but they honestly aren't bad at all. Think about it: you are now parking your car in a safer, newer, cleaner location that is under surveillance. Since we are now being provided some level of service whereas in the past we were not, it isn't unreasonable to pay a small fee for parking.


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## tonys96 (Jul 2, 2013)

So, I apologize in advance for not reading through the entire thread.

We are to arrive in MSP in mid-August, and have someone meeting us there. Will it be at the new SPUD or still at the old Midway Station?

Thanks!


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## PRR 60 (Jul 2, 2013)

tonys96 said:


> So, I apologize in advance for not reading through the entire thread.We are to arrive in MSP in mid-August, and have someone meeting us there. Will it be at the new SPUD or still at the old Midway Station?
> 
> Thanks!


You will be arriving at the old Midway station.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 26, 2014)

On Minnesota Public Radio tonight there was an interview with Ortega, the chair of the Ramsey County Board. He claimed that Amtrak will move into SPUD in the beginning of April.

Given that he's the wizard who led this project, where they 1) first restored the station, and then 2) started negotiating with the railroads to actually have trains stop at the depot, I don't give a lot of credit to that prediction. After all, it's 14 months and counting since SPUD "opened."

But don't worry, he's off to bigger and better things. He's spearheaded the county's purchase... of the largest Superfund site in Minnesota. That will work out well, I'm sure.


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## neroden (Feb 27, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> On Minnesota Public Radio tonight there was an interview with Ortega, the chair of the Ramsey County Board. He claimed that Amtrak will move into SPUD in the beginning of April.
> 
> Given that he's the wizard who led this project, where they 1) first restored the station, and then 2) started negotiating with the railroads to actually have trains stop at the depot, I don't give a lot of credit to that prediction.


The negotiations were opened by RCRRA a very long time ago. From what I can tell, the railroads basically refused to talk until the track area was under construction, AFAICT because it didn't look "real" to them and they didn't want to bother talking. After they actually started talking, it was several years (correction: I didn't go back and check what year the notes about negotiation start appearing in the records) which is unfortunately typical for the sort of delays the Class Is' bad attitude causes.
Delays caused by negotiations with the Class I Freights are legion. They delayed the Denver commuter rail projects, the Salt Lake City rail projects, the Michigan line improvements (by over a year), the Poughkeepsie-Schenectady improvements (by about a year); CSX delayed an extremely simple project in Syracuse by over 5 years (supposedly they have an agreement now) and Conrail actually prevented another project from happening at all even though it wasn't on their land.

And now, from what I can tell, BNSF is just not bothering to do what it promised because BNSF has other priorities. I'm not sure what happened to BNSF's attitude; maybe Carl Ice is just a jerk.



> But don't worry, he's off to bigger and better things. He's spearheaded the county's purchase... of the largest Superfund site in Minnesota. That will work out well, I'm sure.


This one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Cities_Army_Ammunition_Plant
Pffft. Someone had to clean it up (or the toxins would bleed out to the neighbors), but it's a rather straightforward cleanup. So straightforward they can just hire a contractor to "do it".

You don't really have major Superfund sites in Minnesota, do you. Lucky state!

Take a look at this for a more typical serious problem:

http://www.onondaganation.org/land/olake.html

http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/8668.html

Or my mother's home state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit

http://www2.epa.gov/region8/anaconda-co-smelter

http://www2.epa.gov/region8/silver-bow-creek-butte-area

Or on the Columbia River:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

Then there's Gary, Indiana....


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## Ispolkom (Feb 27, 2014)

neroden said:


> From what I can tell, the railroads basically refused to talk until the track area was under construction, AFAICT because it didn't look "real" to them and they didn't want to bother talking. After they actually started talking, it was several years (correction: I didn't go back and check what year the notes about negotiation start appearing in the records) which is unfortunately typical for the sort of delays the Class Is' bad attitude causes.


If the project manager isn't taken seriously by his interlocutors, that's the project manager's fault. That's his job. He's paid to bring a project in on schedule, not to make excuses about how mean Class 1 railroads are.

As for other states' pollution, just because we don't have a Butte yet (just wait for Poly Met, though), doesn't mean that the county board can't make a mess of TCAP.


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## CHamilton (Mar 5, 2014)

Latest rumor, from Facebook. No idea how true it is.



> I am now hearing May 12 for the Empire Builder's relocation to St. Paul Union Depot.


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## RRUserious (Mar 5, 2014)

The LRT is due to take passengers there on June 14. Not sure which they want first, the depot or the LRT.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 5, 2014)

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## bgiaquin (Mar 6, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Latest rumor, from Facebook. No idea how true it is.
> 
> 
> 
> > I am now hearing May 12 for the Empire Builder's relocation to St. Paul Union Depot.


even later?! :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :angry2:


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## Ispolkom (Mar 6, 2014)

Hey, but every Wednesday is Board Game Night! And there's yoga on Saturday mornings! Plenty of room for both, since there aren't any Amtrak passengers.


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## anir dendroica (Mar 6, 2014)

BNSF has been operating in crisis mode since December. Heavy traffic, polar vortexes, derailments, avalanches. Not surprised that they are postponing work not essential to getting trains over the road.

I'm sure someone in BNSF management is also aware that the move to SPUD will generate a fair bit of press - and a good deal of bad press for BNSF if the first #8 arrives eight hours late. Better to wait until things are moving, say in that one-month May window between snow/flooding and summer construction.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 6, 2014)

Heavy traffic combined with the utterly astonishing occurrence of winter operating mostly on its normal schedule and with a slightly worse then usual nature has left BNSF in shock. They apparently thought summer was going to go on for 12 months this year.

This has been a particularly bad winter for those of us on the snow maybe line such as in central Jersey. For the northern states, its been a snowy winter. Just like the usual snowy winter with a bit more snow. I'm sick of the "winter occurred, and thats why we can't manage to take a **** without stomping on our crank 15 times" excuse.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 6, 2014)

No, you are mistaken. Actually, in Minnesota it's the coldest winter in 35 years.  Or nineth coldest winter ever recorded.

And it's colder in North Dakota and Montana than it is here.

Snow is annoying, and snowfalls are running a foot more than average (and you know, none of the snow that has fallen has melted yet), but equipment can handle snow to some extent. The problem for the railroad is a) working on broken equipment outside when it's dangerously cold out, and b) continuing to do that when the cold continues for days and weeks. Even with good clothes, it saps morale.

I'd love to enjoy your winter in New Jersey. You guys probably don't bombard snowfields with helicopter-dropped bombs


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 6, 2014)

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 6, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


Cite?


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## oldtimer (Mar 6, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> No, you are mistaken. Actually, in Minnesota it's the coldest winter in 35 years.  Or nineth coldest winter ever recorded.
> 
> And it's colder in North Dakota and Montana than it is here.
> 
> ...


Amen, I'm glad I retired. I live approximately 25 miles from Chicago and this is the worst winter I have seen in my 65 years. The record number of zero degree days is broken or tied, depending on your source. The snowfall total is twice the seasonal average. I haven't seen bare ground on my land in 3 months, at least the way it is going I won't have to mow the lawn until after the 4 of July snow melt!

Working outdoors can be BRUTAL in the Chicago yard. Yes the S&I building is better heated, but what percentage of the cars dispatched can fit into it? How long are the cars allowed to stay in the S&I until it is needed for another train? The employees are physically and emotionally drained.

You may ask how I know, I started there with the PennCentral in 1972. I went to Amtrak in 1973 and traveled extensively. I am familiar with the 480 power cars. Riding for hours with the noise and fumes while sitting on a folding chair and ear glued to a railroad radio. I've spliced in 480 volt cable heads on # 7 at 20 degrees below zero. So cold that the heat shrink insulation would not shrink until you applied a torch directly to it and electrical tape broke when you tried to get it off the roll. I'm proud to say that we were on the move with full 480 power in 20 minutes.

This and other incidents over 35+ years are probably the main reason that I have multiple disabling injuries and illnesses now. I can tell you that one of the most common sayings in the was "The beating will continue until the morale improves!"


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## Ispolkom (Mar 6, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> You may ask how I know, I started there with the PennCentral in 1972. I went to Amtrak in 1973 and traveled extensively. I am familiar with the 480 power cars. Riding for hours with the noise and fumes while sitting on a folding chair and ear glued to a railroad radio. I've spliced in 480 volt cable heads on # 7 at 20 degrees below zero. So cold that the heat shrink insulation would not shrink until you applied a torch directly to it and electrical tape broke when you tried to get it off the roll. I'm proud to say that we were on the move with full 480 power in 20 minutes.


I've never had to do anything more complicated in subzero cold than throw hay bales and chop ice to water cattle, and that was when I was a youngster. Now I have to shovel snow, but you can leave your mittens (and gloves and glove liners) on for that. I can't imagine doing detail work as your fingers lose feeling. I grew up in a railroad town, and every winter night that I hear the wind howl, I think of people out doing the sort of work you did.

I know that I shouldn't try to one-up you, but bare ground? I haven't seen my street's pavement since early December. I remember hearing an NPR story about Texas' problem with "cobblestone ice." Here we call that "winter driving."

Stay warm!


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## jebr (Mar 7, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


Yes, statistics can be misused. But this isn't a "slightly worse than normal" winter. It's one of the coldest winters ever (in fact, the coldest winter in Minnesota since I've been born,) especially in terms of long stretches of cold days. Each particular day may not be so cold as to break records, but it's been a persistent cold...50+ below-zero nights with highs often barely breaking the 0 mark. That doesn't play well with fixing broken rails, fixing slow orders to keep them to a minimum, etc.

I saw elsewhere what temperatures are required before BNSF imposes slow orders, but I can't remember them off-hand. If this is reaching those levels, though, then there's not much that can be done.


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## RRUserious (Mar 7, 2014)

Yeh, it is pretty cold. Not historic cold, but enough cold to cause all sorts of problems. Like frostbite and gangrene. Meaning people in its path need to know things like dressing properly and paying attention to what their body parts are telling them. In some parts of the world, the whole way of life is adapted to this. But the cold this year has also hit places where people have expectations of more warmth. Those are the people really suffering.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 7, 2014)

RRUserious said:


> Yeh, it is pretty cold. Not historic cold, but enough cold to cause all sorts of problems. Like frostbite and gangrene. Meaning people in its path need to know things like dressing properly and paying attention to what their body parts are telling them. In some parts of the world, the whole way of life is adapted to this. But the cold this year has also hit places where people have expectations of more warmth. Those are the people really suffering.


Head South for the Winter! Birds and Snowbirds do it, and when you Retire(or Win the Lottery!! ), Move where it's Warm in the Winter like so many Have!  Just Don't move to Austin!! :lol:


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## RRUserious (Mar 8, 2014)

Good winter move. Pretty bad summer move. Unless you spend winter in the desert and the summer high in the mountains.


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## jimhudson (Mar 8, 2014)

Totally agree! If one is wealthy enough to spend the winter where its warm and summers where its cool, that's ideal!

The best overall compromise is Southern CA if u can afford it! The worst is places where the temperature extremes are like 90s-100 with high humidity in the summer and six month winters below zero!

My ideal combo would be British Columbia in the Summer and San Diego or Hawaii in the Winter! Worst would be the South or the Desert SW in the Summer and the Northern Great Lakes Area in the Winter!

Best overall Climate has to be SoCal South of LA!


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## Ispolkom (Mar 8, 2014)

I lived in the Bay Area for five years, and the weather suffered from the tyranny of perfection. 300 days out of the year the forecast was, "Cloudy on the coast, clearing by noon. Highs sixties on the coast, eighties inland." I think I heard thunder half a dozen times in the those five years.

I don't have those issues here in Minnesota, where we even have thunder snow storms. Plus, I get to enjoy mocking east-coast residents who whine about a little snow.

How cold was this winter? Even with a three-foot snow depth, the ground is frozen six feet down, and people are having problems with pipes freezing. Not pipes in their houses, no, the supply pipe from the water main freezing.

And this is the weather in which my county board decided it would have signals installed at SPUD.


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## neroden (Mar 8, 2014)

Awesome. I always thought burying pipes was a really unreliable way of preventing them from freezing. This year, I am proven right.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 10, 2014)

I see today that Greyhound is joining Jefferson Lines and Megabus at St. Paul Union Depot tomorrow. "The bus companies are finding that the waiting room is just really nice for their passengers," Well, sure. It's certainly not crowded with Amtrak passengers.


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## RRUserious (Mar 10, 2014)

Haha. Well, if the Empire Builder isn't there yet, why would Amtrak passengers be there. But, yeh, I took Metro Transit down there to transfer to the #54 line on West 7th. Good place to get out of the weather. Nice old building.


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## RRUserious (Mar 10, 2014)

And the way EB is going, even when trains are running (in a meaningful sense) the station will be pretty empty pretty much all the time.


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## edjbox (Mar 10, 2014)

so when will Amtrak relocate to SPUD?


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## jimhudson (Mar 10, 2014)

karnack: How the heck should I know? It's Amtrak! LOL


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## The Whistler (Mar 10, 2014)

edjbox said:


> so when will Amtrak relocate to SPUD?


Should be by next month. That's the end of Q1 14 where Amtrak's signed agreement stipulates that they will begin service at St Paul Union Station.


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## montana mike (Mar 11, 2014)

As everyone has said: I will believe it when I see it. This has dragged on soooooo long now it's almost comical.

:-(


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## oldtimer (Mar 11, 2014)

montana mike said:


> As everyone has said: I will believe it when I see it. This has dragged on soooooo long now it's almost comical.
> 
> :-(


I like the verse in _I Heard It Through The Grapevine_, it says "believe half of what you see and some or none of what you hear!"

This is so true on Amtrak and you can usually add make sure you have had your vision checked recently.


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## riverviewer (Mar 11, 2014)

I'll see it when I believe it!


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## PRR 60 (Mar 11, 2014)

This topic was started in January of 2013. It's kind of funny (or sad) that the topic title still seems appropriate.


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## Ryan (Mar 11, 2014)

I was thinking the same thing today. Hopefully "end of THIS year" will turn out to be ok.

Sent from my iPhone


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## Ispolkom (Mar 12, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> This topic was started in January of 2013. It's kind of funny (or sad) that the topic title still seems appropriate.


"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

I'm sure that my Easter trip will be from Midway. I expect that my trip back after Memorial Day will arrive at Midway. I'd like to think that after Thanksgiving I might be arriving at SPUD, but I've given up on hope.


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2014)

It is well into the ridiculous at this point. I'm hoping my planned 2015 trip to Minnesota will arrive at SPUD.

This isn't the only overly-delayed project, though. Amtrak's behind on everything. On that trip from Syracuse to Minneapolis, I *ought to see*, in addition to SPUD and the Green Line:

(1) New Viewliner dining car

(2) New Viewliner dorm-baggage cars

(3) New Viewliner full baggage car

(4) New Viewliner sleeping cars

(5) "Point of Sale" in the cafe car and dining car

(6) Earlier schedule for the eastbound LSL (as noted in the PIP), with dinner

(7) New location for Metropolitan lounge in Chicago (anyone remember that project)?

(8) More on-time-performance for the LSL due to Schenectady to Albany double tracking

(9) More on-time performance for the LSL due to Syracuse area track improvements

(10) More on-time-performance for the LSL due to Englewood Flyover

(11) Improved pickup/dropoff and bus connections at Chicago Union Station

Of these projects only Englewood Flyover is on schedule AFAICT.

And come 2015, the Empire Builder may still be too unreliable to connect eastbound with anything! Though I sure hope not.


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## CHamilton (Mar 24, 2014)

From a friend on Facebook. Not sure of his source.



> Amtrak service beginning May 7.


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## TraneMan (Mar 24, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> From a friend on Facebook. Not sure of his source.
> 
> 
> 
> > Amtrak service beginning May 7.


He said "According to the conductors announcement"


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## CHamilton (Mar 26, 2014)

And now Trains magazine is reporting that EB service to SPUD is "again delayed" due to delays in signal installation and testing. BNSF says that they're working to let Amtrak move to the depot as soon as possible, but



> The bottom line is no one yet knows when Amtrak’s Empire Builder can begin using the depot.


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## montana mike (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks for the update--perhaps by the Fall we will see this happen!


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 26, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> And now Trains magazine is reporting that EB service to SPUD is "again delayed" due to delays in signal installation and testing. BNSF says that they're working to let Amtrak move to the depot as soon as possible, but
> 
> 
> 
> > The bottom line is no one yet knows when Amtrak’s Empire Builder can begin using the depot.


Okay... ...so now I think the Viewliner IIs will be in revenue service before WMATA's Silver Line, DC's streetcars or SPUD sees its first EB taking on/disembarking passengers... ...Such exciting times we live in!


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## NW cannonball (Mar 27, 2014)

So - the poor dumb local politicians, and the dumb loser local train users (and the frack oil shippers too), didn't have the wit to get enough lawyers to get an enforceable contract from BNSF. Amusing.

BNSF has higher priorities, like getting as much cash, and delivering as little transport as possible, and fewer signalmen, and can't (won't) make the SPUD connection work. All us MSP people wonder.

I used to admire the "amazing guru" but now that I'm losing Amtrak connectivity and losing our local investment in SPUD,

Thanks, Warren, -- for using your monopoly to the hilt.

There might be a backlash forming.


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## montana mike (Mar 27, 2014)

Mr. Buffett is not the lovable "teddy bear" his image makers portray him as for the media. Yes, he smiles a lot and says the right things, but he didn't get to where he is now by being Mr. Nice guy to everyone all of the time-not at all. He is a calculating, methodical and yes, sometimes harsh entrepreneur who has and does indeed step on toes...... I have seen his people in action in the real world first hand on several occasions and the "real WB" is often far different than what his minders make him out to be.


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## neroden (Mar 27, 2014)

If you read Buffett's annual reports for a while, he makes it very clear that one of his primary business strategies is to buy companies which have monopolies -- or "high barriers to entry" -- and get monopoly profits out of them.

The reason he's a little smarter than average is that he understands that you don't keep monopoly profits by making everyone angry -- you keep monopoly profits by keeping people content enough that they *don't* start calling their Congressmen and demanding an alternative.

This is why the current BNSF situation is out of character for him and indicates an error on his (or his managers') part. Buffett's style matches the former BNSF practice of offering good passenger service for gold-plated prices, such as they did initially for Northstar in Minneapolis.

He's been making other mistakes lately too. Wells Fargo is a fraud shop which is probably going to be completely shut down in the next few years, now that it's been proven that they issued an *instruction manual* for defrauding the courts to large numbers of employees. He's still invested Berkshire Hathaway shareholders' money in this worthless stock. If the collapse of Wells Fargo tanks BRK stock, Buffett may actually get personally sued for that, since he was personally notified of Wells Fargo's criminal activities.


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## apok86 (Apr 2, 2014)

It's about time.

http://www.startribune.com/local/east/253559541.html


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## CHamilton (Apr 2, 2014)

Apparently the May 7 date is back on again.

Union Depot Officials Announce Amtrak Arrival Date and National Train Day Celebration

April 2, 2014



> Passenger rail service will return to Union Depot in St. Paul on May 7 with the evening arrival of the Amtrak Empire Builder from Chicago, officials with Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority (RCRRA), owners of Union Depot, announced today. The Amtrak station on 730 Transfer Road will close after the Chicago-bound Empire Builder departs that morning. Operations will move to Union Depot’s Kellogg Entry at 240 Kellogg Blvd., E., in the Lowertown neighborhood of St. Paul for the arrival of the evening train.
> 
> Beginning May 7, the westbound Amtrak schedule will show the Empire Builder(Train 7/27) arriving at Union Depot at 10:03 p.m. and departing at 10:10 p.m. Beginning May 8, the eastbound Empire Builder (Train 8 /28) is scheduled to arrive at 7:52 a.m. and depart at 8:00 a.m. These are slightly different times than are used at the Transfer Road station.


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## montana mike (Apr 2, 2014)

Whoo hoo!! I look forward to seeing this "live" when I am on #8 in mid-May!


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## St Pauler (Apr 2, 2014)

Not a fan of the scheduled 8 minute dwell. That means I need to get myself to the station in a more timely manner. Also what is the impact on running with one fewer service stop?


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## PRR 60 (Apr 2, 2014)

St Pauler said:


> Not a fan of the scheduled 8 minute dwell. That means I need to get myself to the station in a more timely manner. Also what is the impact on running with one fewer service stop?


The service stop will continue to take place at the old Midway station. It will not be a passenger stop, but the other services including cutting the seasonal CHI-MSP car on and off will take place there.


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## CHamilton (Apr 2, 2014)

I would guess that the St. Paul stops will look like the dual CS stops in Oakland: one for passengers at Jack London Square, and the service stop, which can be used for tasks like connecting and disconnecting private cars. Having two stops in St. Paul is not ideal, but the newly-renovated SPUD is a beautiful building. And when the light rail opens in June, it will have excellent transit connections.


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## bgiaquin (Apr 2, 2014)

The servicing at Midway is only supposed to be short-term. They will move servicing to Union Depot sometime.


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## neroden (Apr 2, 2014)

The scheduling changes are much as I predicted, though a little different. From the uniondepot.org website:



> Beginning May 7, the westbound Amtrak schedule will show the _Empire Builder _(Train 7/27) arriving at Union Depot at 10:03 p.m. and departing at 10:10 p.m. Beginning May 8, the eastbound _Empire Builder _(Train 8 /28) is scheduled to arrive at 7:52 a.m. and depart at 8:00 a.m.


 From St Paul to Chicago, they've cut 10 minutes off the schedule. From Chicago to St. Paul, they've cut 28 minutes off the schedule. Of course, all this time and more is added back onto the route west of St. Paul; it shows how slow the route from SPUD through Midway actually is. But for the MSP-CHI market, it's an improvement.

---

Out of curiosity I looked something else up: the span of service for the Green Line (Central Corridor) light rail when it opens in June. The light rail is supposed to start running at 5 AM and stop running "around" 1 AM. If the Empire Builder is actually on time in MSP (yeah, I know, I know) then it's possible to reliably connect to the Green Line. Connections to urban rail systems are a known ridership booster for intercity lines. This is definitely nicer than walking from the Transfer Road station to the nearest bus stop (which was perfectly viable and even safe, but it's a poorly lit industrial district, so it doesn't *appear* safe).

I also looked into which city buses will still be running that late. The #54 bus to the airport / Mall of America will also reliably be running that late. I don't think any of the other routes will be, but maybe the #21; it's hard to tell since all the bus routes are being modified when the Green Line opens.

If delays are as they were for the last four weeks, however, the westbound EB would misconnect to the city bus & rail lines 4 out of every 28 days. :-( Amtrak needs to put some pressure on CP and/or Metra to run the trains less late. (Horribly, the eastbound EB would have misconnected once in the last 28 days, which is difficult given its scheduled arrival time. Hopefully this is going to get fixed by the temporary schedule alterations west of MSP which were discussed in other threads.)

I don't really have an idea how much connecting traffic there will be between Amtrak and Megabus, Greyhound, or Jefferson Lines. I'm guessing not much. Jefferson Lines and Greyhound are only running a few of their Twin Cities buses into SPUD, and the schedules don't seem to enable any sensible trips; most of the ones running into SPUD are the ones which run parallel to the Empire Builder. I don't know how much benefit having bus and rail departing at different times on parallel routes from the same station will have for Amtrak; again I'm guessing not much.

---

FWIW, if I'm waiting for a horribly-delayed eastbound Empire Builder, I'd much rather be waiting at/around SPUD than at/around Transfer Road.


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## TraneMan (Apr 3, 2014)

Wonder since the stop at SPUD is short, will the people be able to step off at Midway for the fresh air/smoke?

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


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## CHamilton (Apr 22, 2014)

At least there will be local transit at the new station.

Central Corridor trains to run 24/7 on trial basis




> The Green Line is going to be up all night, every night -- at least on a trial basis.
> Metro Transit decided to keep the Green Line trains of the new Central Corridor Light Rail Transit line running around the clock after several Minneapolis City Council members expressed concerns about accommodating late-night workers and club-goers.
> 
> That's according to an April 15 letter to council members Jacob Frey, Cam Gordon and Kevin Reich from Metro Transit general manager Brian Lamb.
> ...


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## excheesehead (Apr 25, 2014)

If it hasn't been posted the Minnesota transportation museum will have GN SD45 400 and GN coach 1213 at SPUD for national train day plus shuttle busses to jackson street roundhouse and bandana square http://www.mtmuseum.org/?div=mtm&page=ntd


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## edjbox (May 29, 2014)

What will happen to the old Midway station now that the move to SPUD has been completed?


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## neroden (May 29, 2014)

edjbox said:


> What will happen to the old Midway station now that the move to SPUD has been completed?


It probably ends up with Minnesota Commercial Railway, who own everything around it.


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## NorthShore (May 29, 2014)

neroden said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> > What will happen to the old Midway station now that the move to SPUD has been completed?
> ...


Who is Minnesota Commercial Railway?


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## zephyr17 (May 29, 2014)

NorthShore said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > edjbox said:
> ...


Midway is located in Minnesota Commercial's yard. The Empire Builder uses Minnesota Commercial to get between the CP "short line" and BNSF's Staples (?) Sub.

Minnesota Commercial is a local industrial shortline/transfer line.


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## edjbox (May 29, 2014)

2 questions:

Will Midway station be redeveloped into offices or businesses or just stay the same? Amtrak could make some $ if they sell the land to someone for offices (Amtrak could always have office space in the redeveloped station)

I heard that Amtrak trains still have to stop here for a few minutes for dropping off a coach, refueling, etc., and I heard that parking is better here than at SPUD (based on info from All Aboard MN and MN NARP). Based off of this, why don't trains continue to stop here at Midway Station as well??


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## prech786 (May 29, 2014)

edjbox said:


> 2 questions:
> 
> Will Midway station be redeveloped into offices or businesses or just stay the same? Amtrak could make some $ if they sell the land to someone for offices (Amtrak could always have office space in the redeveloped station)
> 
> I heard that Amtrak trains still have to stop here for a few minutes for dropping off a coach, refueling, etc., and I heard that parking is better here than at SPUD (based on info from All Aboard MN and MN NARP). Based off of this, why don't trains continue to stop here at Midway Station as well??


The Empire Builder still stops at the Midway Station for switching moves and any servicing. In the summer there is a seasonal CHI-MSP-CHI coach (#807/#808). Also an PV drop-offs or pick-ups happen here.

There was plenty of FREE at the Midway Station.  It's $5 - $6/day at the SPUD. 

Since the SPUD is in the far southeast corner of the Twin Cites Metro area there have been discussions about having the EB stop at one of the North Star Commuter Stations in the far northwest corner; Fridley, Anoka or Elk River. There's free overnight parking at those stops. It's for people taking the NorthStar and LRT to the airport! Given all the players and bureaucracies involved in an extra stop that decision probably won't happen in my lifetime, LOL.


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## jebr (May 29, 2014)

Basic servicing is done at SPUD, though. When I went through on the eastbound Builder the other day, there was a short (couple minutes, maybe) pause near Midway, but we never pulled into the platform area. They unloaded garbage, added ice, etc. at SPUD.


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## TraneMan (May 29, 2014)

jebr said:


> Basic servicing is done at SPUD, though. When I went through on the eastbound Builder the other day, there was a short (couple minutes, maybe) pause near Midway, but we never pulled into the platform area. They unloaded garbage, added ice, etc. at SPUD.


So there's no fresh air stop, or was it at SPUD?


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## CHamilton (Jun 3, 2014)

St. Paul's Union Depot names train viewing spot



> A new picnic area overlooking the St. Paul, Minn., Lowertown train tracks and the Division Street wye track has been named the "Rail View Picnic Area," Union Depot officials announced yesterday.
> 
> The landscaped area enables visitors to watch Amtrak Empire Builder passenger trains and freight trains arrive and depart. The Mississippi River also can be viewed from the area. The name was voted on by the general public through a Facebook campaign and in person at the May 10 National Train Day event at the station.
> 
> The Division Street wye is part of a dense, rail-rich area that registers up to 10,000 freight cars, or 5 percent of the nation's freight volume, each day. The site is open to the public from sunrise to sunset and is adjacent to the location of the bike trail that will open in late 2015...


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## Ispolkom (Jun 3, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Basic servicing is done at SPUD, though. When I went through on the eastbound Builder the other day, there was a short (couple minutes, maybe) pause near Midway, but we never pulled into the platform area. They unloaded garbage, added ice, etc. at SPUD.
> ...


On #8 on Sunday there was a short smoke break at SPUD, but the emphasis was on short ("less than 5 minutes"). I don't remember what they said on #7 earlier in the week.


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## CHamilton (Jun 4, 2014)

Food trucks at SPUD! But they won't be there when the EB arrives unless it's really, really late...oh, wait...

Union Depot hosts Food Truck Fridays at the St. Paul end of the new light rail line


> St. Paul's Union Depot is enticing downtown workers to hop on the soon-to-open Green Line light rail route by hosting two Food Truck Fridays at the end of the line this month.
> 
> 
> Union Depot will be the last eastbound stop on the new Metro Green Line, which will start running June 14.
> ...


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## NorthShore (Jun 4, 2014)

Looks like they'll be there during the jazz fest on the latter Saturday.


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## TraneMan (Jul 16, 2014)

A friend of mine is a conductor on the EB, and when we went to SEA a few weeks ago, I was able to hang out with him and and another conductor (who was deadheading) and they said they H A T E SPUD!

I had a chance to watch it first hand and and he was solo since the other one time has ran out.

Here are a few things the pointed out they hate SPUD, and they said along with the other conductor has mention this to the managements.

-They send people down to the platform just as the train arrives, and no one is directed of where they are suppose to go. So, first time travelers, they don't know what cars are theirs. So when people get off, they are in the mix of people getting on. (That night, there was a good numbers coming and going)

- The platform is narrow..

- The stop time went from 45 mim to 7 min. It's a smoke stop, but it's not annouced.

- Ticket office is way on the other end of the building, a long walk if they have to go in there for some reason.

- At the old Midway, they kept the passengers inside, allowed the ones get off, and then they conductor will go in and scan the tickets as they leave the building, now they don't have time to scan the tickets. They are too busy sorting out the lost people on the platform. So they have to scan once the train leaves SPUD, and try to sort out the people.

I know I am missing a couple of things that they were venting out about... But once they pointed those things out, I feeel bad for them.. Once he got the tickets scanned, I could tell he was stressed out being solo...


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## Ispolkom (Jul 16, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> A friend of mine is a conductor on the EB, and when we went to SEA a few weeks ago, I was able to hang out with him and and another conductor (who was deadheading) and they said they H A T E SPUD!


I can certainly see that. I caught #7 at SPUD a couple of weeks ago, and directed a few passengers to where I thought they should be (for example, if you're in the Portland sleeper, start walking).

For passengers it's a mixed bag. The sleeper lounge is rather small and was quite crowded on our evening. While the main waiting room is, of course, huge and empty. If you want the code for the Metropolitan Lounge you have to find the ticket office, which way the back of beyond.

Pluses on a night when the train was late include free wifi, and Bedlam Theatre across 4th street. In spite of the name, they are mostly a bar that has locally sourced food and interesting cocktails. It was quiet on a Tuesday night -- I'm not sure I'd like it there when a band was playing or there as an avant garde theatrical event. The men's room had a sign that said, "Male, Trans, Genderblur," which is darned unusual for St. Paul.

I'm not sure why it's such a short stop, since it isn't as though there isn't padding in the schedule.


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## Blackwolf (Jul 16, 2014)

Sounds like all of the troubles (minus the narrow platform part) are stupidly simple to fix, and are purely in the control of the Amtrak Station Master.


Follow what the airlines do. Namely, wait to let boarding passengers out through the gate until those disembarking have all gone into the station.
Board sleepers first
Board coaches second.
Have adequate signage on the platforms with arrows and car names/numbers (Seattle-Bound Sleeping Car Passengers - 0731 & 0732 *->*)
Scan tickets as passengers leave through the gate doors
Extend the station dwell time to adequately serve these needs
This is not rocket science. *head-desk*


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## MattW (Jul 17, 2014)

Or better yet, put signs on the platform with the train configuration, and do away with any semblance of a kindergarten walk altogether. Every other civilized country on the planet (except Via Rail, they seem to have turned it into a preschool walk from what I understand) has figured this out. Why can't Amtrak?


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## TraneMan (Jul 17, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Sounds like all of the troubles (minus the narrow platform part) are stupidly simple to fix, and are purely in the control of the Amtrak Station Master.
> 
> 
> Follow what the airlines do. Namely, wait to let boarding passengers out through the gate until those disembarking have all gone into the station.
> ...


Yeah, they have thrown this at their management, and it's all deaf ears.

As scan tickets at the gate, they would do that if there was more time than just 7 min. Also, that time isn't enough for the baggage exchange.


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## neroden (Jul 17, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> - At the old Midway, they kept the passengers inside, allowed the ones get off, and then they conductor will go in and scan the tickets as they leave the building, now they don't have time to scan the tickets. They are too busy sorting out the lost people on the platform. So they have to scan once the train leaves SPUD, and try to sort out the people.


Exactly as their job has already required for years. Tickets are supposed to be scanned on board, period. There's plenty of time as there is are 54 minutes to the next stop eastbound, and over two hours to the next stop westbound direction. I'm not sympathetic to THAT.
Conductors on the Empire Service routinely break the rules by trying to scan tickets before boarding, and they delay the trains. I'm glad to hear that conductors on the Empire Builder aren't just breaking the rules, but they don't get to complain about following the rules which were always present.

If the conductors want people to be able to find their boarding locations better and quicker, they should ask the station or Amtrak to put up little signs like Amtrak did at Denver, next to where each car is supposed to board. Easy fix.

I am sympathetic to complaints about reducing the station stop time from 45 minutes to 7 as it changes a LOT of procedures, but not to this complaint.


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## neroden (Jul 17, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like all of the troubles (minus the narrow platform part) are stupidly simple to fix, and are purely in the control of the Amtrak Station Master.
> ...


If you suggest stupid, moronic ideas which delay the train, you will be told to shut up -- good to see that management is competent.
The conductors need to be more careful about their suggestions. Suggest the signs, period, which are a good idea. Stop making the dumb suggestions, which every other one of these suggestions is.

Trains are not airplanes. Trying to treat them like airplanes (a) delays the train and (b) is laziness on the part of the conductors.

Trains are not airplanes.


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## andersone (Jul 17, 2014)

why do I have this urge to shout "All Aboard?"


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## Ispolkom (Jul 17, 2014)

MattW said:


> Or better yet, put signs on the platform with the train configuration, and do away with any semblance of a kindergarten walk altogether.


This is clearly the answer. There are only the two trains, and they always have the same configuration. Just put up signs saying where coach passengers for X city should stand.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 17, 2014)

Or a Europe solution. Sign inside the station showing the position of the cars in relation to the engines.

Or a hobby show solution. "O" scale model with cards show the number of each car, and there position to the engines.

FYI this happen at most stops. I point out locations for people to stand when the Lake Shore Limited pull into Utica NY. Boston Sleepers, New York Sleepers (how to tell which one your in) coach passengers in the middle.


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## potato (Jul 19, 2014)

What did he mean by "narrow platforms"? They seem quite wide to me, certainly more so than Chicago Union Station!


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## TraneMan (Jul 19, 2014)

potato said:


> What did he mean by "narrow platforms"? They seem quite wide to me, certainly more so than Chicago Union Station!


I am not sure if wider than CHI. But it's narrow when you got a lot of people getting off and on at the same time so it can get crowed vs the old Midway, there was LOTS of space.. (I'm guessing they are used to that.)


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## jebr (Jul 19, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> potato said:
> 
> 
> > What did he mean by "narrow platforms"? They seem quite wide to me, certainly more so than Chicago Union Station!
> ...


Also worth noting: In Chicago for Amtrak there's only people either getting on or getting off, not both like at SPUD. (Sometimes a METRA train will do both, but there's a lot less luggage there.)


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## SubwayNut (Jul 20, 2014)

I thought Saint Paul was a crew change station? This would mean the conductors would be scanning tickets before the train even arrives?

The only time I find scanning tickets in the station makes sense to me is when a station is a crew change spot and the conductors are in the station scanning tickets before the train even arrives (Denver and SLC are the main stops that come to mind).

Example: A couple nights ago when I boarded the northbound Crescent in Charlotte and the crew went around the waiting room before departure to scan everyone's tickets. Everyone of course then decided to self form a line at the gate out to the platforms before we were finally allowed to go out to a single open door for the coaches where both conductors were helping hoist people and their suitcases (as someone who's gotten on and off countless commuter and Amtrak trains at low-level platforms unassisted) I couldn't believe how many people clearly wanted help. Once we finally got into the vestibule the train attendant handed out seat numbers (I assumed this would happening and was happy about it since I was for once traveling with someone, who I got a free ticket for using a companion coupon). We all boarded just one coach but they could have opened up a second vestibule and split the load

At every intermediate stop until the discharge only stops of the NEC, the same thing happened just one door would be opened and our train got later and later, two to two and a half hours late. There were no noticeable freight train delays. A couple connecting to Buffalo just missed the Lake Shore. The conductor in Washington wanted to send them up on 176, the 12:02 Regional that would have made the Lake Shore but it was moving and leaving as we arrived in Washington.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 20, 2014)

Last I heard, the crew changes at SCD. (barring the all-too-usual delays)

At the old Midway station at MSP, the conductor would walk into the station and set up a gate at the door to the platform to check boarding tickets. Sleepers first, then need assistance, then the rest.

At the new SPUD, the gate is way up 2 flights from platform to the classic waiting area. The ticketing and baggage check people are way away -- at least 60 yards and 2 flights from the head of the gate to the escalators and stairs to the tracks.

Also, there's still only 2 people assigned to the ticketing and baggage check (2 levels down and 80 yards from the head of the amtrak boarding escalator.

When the eastbound #8 was late a few weeks back, I watched the second "ticketing and baggage person" go up - over - down -- at least 3 times.

She wasn't getting any better info than me, or my onboard passenger I was eager to meet.

"stopped at Saint Anthony, no more info" was all she, or anybody could say. (the son visiting me that day said - "totally botched freight move at the bottleneck at Saint A")

I can say that she walked the walk, (in high school, it might have passed for some PT credit) and faced the passengers, and those of us waiting for passengers -- calmly and truthfully said she didn't know.

Having the ticketing and baggage place so far from the tracks seems to work at Kansas City. Maybe it will be a while before the Amtrak crews learn how to optimize at SPUD


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## neroden (Jul 20, 2014)

SubwayNut said:


> At every intermediate stop until the discharge only stops of the NEC, the same thing happened just one door would be opened and our train got later and later, two to two and a half hours late. There were no noticeable freight train delays.


This is why the idiotic "one door, check tickets at door" stuff is - according to what I've heard secondhand -- prohibited by the rulebook. Is there some way to get Amtrak to crack down on conductors who do this?


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## jebr (Jul 20, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> Last I heard, the crew changes at SCD. (barring the all-too-usual delays)


Correct. Crew change is scheduled at SCD, and tickets are usually pulled before the train ever arrives there.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 20, 2014)

neroden said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> > At every intermediate stop until the discharge only stops of the NEC, the same thing happened just one door would be opened and our train got later and later, two to two and a half hours late. There were no noticeable freight train delays.
> ...


You could threaten to whine at them.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 20, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> potato said:
> 
> 
> > What did he mean by "narrow platforms"? They seem quite wide to me, certainly more so than Chicago Union Station!
> ...


The platform at SPUD is wide enough. Us old-timers at the old Midway station assumed that detraininig people just bypassed the station and walked around the building, maybe to the checked baggage carousel, or not,or to to their ride with friends or family, as need be. It takes some adjustment to not be able to walk right up to the tracks, like we used to do. Now, got to go up, over, around. But who cares about us long-time users?

Now there's a mostly locked access point to some stairs and mostly working escalator to the platform.

One of the two staff at the ticket and bag check way over on the Kellog street side has to walk a long ways to open the gate to the stairs-escalator. The Conductor can't check tickets at the gate. The detraining pax have to use the stairs-escalator contra the boarding pax - none of which mattered at the old nowhere station.

And - there's only few-minute stop.

Eventually, detraining pax will learn to bypass the up-over-down -- it's not NYP.

Meanwhile - SPUD is a PITA.

And a gate dragon -ha - one who can't be there is worse than one who can at least direct traffic.


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## plink (Jul 22, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> At the new SPUD, the gate is way up 2 flights from platform to the classic waiting area. The ticketing and baggage check people are way away -- at least 60 yards and 2 flights from the head of the gate to the escalators and stairs to the tracks.
> 
> Also, there's still only 2 people assigned to the ticketing and baggage check (2 levels down and 80 yards from the head of the amtrak boarding escalator.
> 
> When the eastbound #8 was late a few weeks back, I watched the second "ticketing and baggage person" go up - over - down -- at least 3 times.


For Amtrak employees, getting to the ticket office from the platform shouldn't require going up the escalators through the Waiting Room and back down to the ticketing area.. I haven't been in it, but if you look to the north of the Amtrak platform there appears to be an access point leading to a route that goes under the platform area which would allow access to the ticket office.


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## neroden (Jul 22, 2014)

Or they could follow the baggage cart route.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 23, 2014)

w



neroden said:


> Or they could follow the baggage cart route.


I apologize for not explaining more clearly.

It seems that one of the two workers at the ticket desk at SPUD has to go to the upper-level gate at the farthest end of the concourse to open the door to the stairs and escalators to the tracks and platform. To allow any waiting pax down to the platform. Nobody gets to the tracks before official arrival.

I've heard her check in at the lock on the gate to the tracks, use her card, check in with "somewhere", and open the mostly-locked door to the platform. "Super-gate dragons are us"

-

The point is -- one of the two ticket-area (and bagage-check people)

has to walk to, and unlock, the concourse level gate. In person. At the head of the stairs.

This is obviously a policy thing. No pax on the platform before the train officially arrives.

Try to get to the platform before official; arrival

All us MSP people used to know that you can meet your party near the tracks.

Not now.

At SPUD - trying to be gate dragons, getting out of breath - and any shortcut to the platform is off-limits even to the local employees.

Welcome comments - b

Yes, there's ways around the up-and-over - but -- I'm not trying --big space - Amtrak (or SPUD) trying big bad boarding control - not working - big pain.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 23, 2014)

neroden said:


> Or they could follow the baggage cart route.


If they want to be arrested


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 23, 2014)

When Saint Paul Union Depot was vacant, they used to have problems with homeless people coming up the stairs from the platform to the building to stay warm in the winter even though it wasn't heated. At one time, BN stored old passenger rail cars in the depot, many from the early zephyr trains and the observation cars from the post WWII Empire Builders. They too were a haven for the homeless.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 23, 2014)

jphjaxfl said:


> When Saint Paul Union Depot was vacant, they used to have problems with homeless people coming up the stairs from the platform to the building to stay warm in the winter even though it wasn't heated. At one time, BN stored old passenger rail cars in the depot, many from the early zephyr trains and the observation cars from the post WWII Empire Builders. They too were a haven for the homeless.


The best havens for the homeless in Saint Paul - used to be - the old streetcar adit - up under the Cathedral. (gone) Now - I've got no clue. The new wonderful station does not attract. The area around the bluffs near the big Hoffman wye is still pretty good. I see some travellers near Saint Anthony from time to time.

None of them ever hassled me.

The few (homeless or travellers I rarely see near the tracks in my upscale neighborhood - ) no problem.


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## Potato (Jul 23, 2014)

jphjaxfl said:


> When Saint Paul Union Depot was vacant, they used to have problems with homeless people coming up the stairs from the platform to the building to stay warm in the winter even though it wasn't heated. At one time, BN stored old passenger rail cars in the depot, many from the early zephyr trains and the observation cars from the post WWII Empire Builders. They too were a haven for the homeless.


If you take a look at pre-renovation photos of Union Depot when it was shuttered, you can actually see a giant heater near where the First Class lounge is now located. USPS kept the concourse and waiting room heated "just enough" to keep the pipes from freezing and structure from crumbling in the harsh winters.


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## neroden (Jul 23, 2014)

neroden said:


> Or they could follow the baggage cart route.


I meant the employees could follow the baggage cart route and unlock the door from the back side.
After all, they have to follow the baggage cart route to handle the baggage anyway. In fact, if they're doing anything sensible, they should be driving the baggage cart with the outgoing baggage up to the platform shortly before they unlock the doors for the passengers. (It is apparent from your descriptions that they are not doing anything sensible.)


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## neroden (Jul 23, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> Nobody gets to the tracks before official arrival.


This is never sane policy. These are trains. People should be on the platform before the train pulls in. Syracuse doesn't have ideal policies, and it has dangerously narrow sections on its platform, but they do get all the boarding passengers onto the platform a few minutes before arrival, so that boarding can be as efficient as possible.



> I've heard her check in at the lock on the gate to the tracks, use her card, check in with "somewhere", and open the mostly-locked door to the platform. "Super-gate dragons are us"
> 
> -
> 
> ...


A policy which needs to be changed. This is another one of these goofy airplane-mimicking policies which makes no sense for trains.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 23, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> No pax on the platform before the train officially arrives.


I've only caught #7 out of SPUD once, but when I took it we boarding passengers were on the platform at least 10 minutes before the train arrived. I'm not surprised that different Amtrak personnel have different procedures, as that's the one uniformity of Amtrak.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 23, 2014)

The way I see it works now - yeah not good.

The door to the stairs and escalator is locked always, until one of the two employees walks up and over to do some "security" thing, and unlock the door, just as the train is arriving (but I heard one of them bitching that -when will that be?)he

Nah, the way it works now is dumb, stupid, and counter-productive.best I could say

I had high hopes for SPUD. and if you want to take a bus to a casino - good. Or even the bus to the airport -- the #54 good,cheap, frequent,

But boarding Amtrak at SPUD - not so good. Klutzy would be the best I could say.

The beautiful space echoes so much that announcements are unintelligible. Maybe why Amtrak sends a person up to the head of the boarding ramp -

There's displays for the local and casino buses. and for Amtrak- but knowing that the train might arrive in an hour or two is not very helpful.

Aah -


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## Ispolkom (Jul 23, 2014)

I agree that the boarding procedure at SPUD leaves much to be desired, but that could be helped by a few simple steps, like the signs that were suggested earlier. SPUD does have some serious advantages, in my mind, over Midway station.

1) Public transit connections are significantly better, and obvious to the arriving passenger.

2) The waiting area is much larger and more pleasant, with better seating and free wifi, an important consideration since you'll probably be waiting for an hours-late train. I especially think that it's nice that there's lots of room for small children to run around in, since they'll be cooped up pretty soon.

3) The neighborhood isn't an industrial wasteland. I can think of a half-dozen nice places within two blocks of SPUD, which is six more than I could name near Midway. Again, given the lateness of the train, that's a nice thing.

Conductors at Midway were always prone to needlessly boarding procedures (first boarding by groups size, next boarding single passengers by destination, etc.). I think that it wouldn't be hard to simplify and rationalize boarding at SPUD.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 23, 2014)

Totally agree that public transit from SPUD is really really good. The #54 bus to the airport, the Green line - can get anywhere in the Twin Cities on public transit. And lots of good eating places nearby - Tanpopo, Ruam Mit, Cosetta, -- hell even Mickey's.

A visitor would have to walk a long long way to get to a dangerous neighborhood.

.

But - the boarding procedure is annoying.

<edit> never tried the in-station restaurant- but so many good and reasonably priced places nearby -- and the river to watch --

The good thing about waiting for the EB is -- SPUD in a good neighborhood.


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## frequentflyer (Jul 23, 2014)

So what happens to the old Midway Amshack?


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## Galtier (Jul 23, 2014)

I was by the Midway Amshack. Most of the old letters were pulled off the building, but interestingly enough the neon marquee on the building was still on. The waiting room looked like a disaster zone. I can't believe any employee who takes pride in his workplace would like to walk past such a mess, as I understand that Amtrak still has an operations office there. I could be wrong -- but I did observe a handful of cars in the parking lot in front of the building.

The Amshack is still probably nicer than every other building in the area. Seeing as it has windows, I could see it easily being repurposed. It does need a lot of work, though.

RE: SPUD --------- Everything that cannonball has been pointing out as deficiencies aren't really problems with SPUD itself, but rather Amtrak's lack of process control at SPUD. All of the challenges at SPUD could easily be overcome.


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