# Private "Piggyback" Operators



## Anderson (Feb 23, 2012)

Could someone fill me in on the history of post-1971 private rail operations in the US? I know about the few continuing private operators from before Amtrak as well as Auto-Train, but I'm not as familiar with the others that made a go of either "regular excursion" services (i.e. they did a long-distance excursion train, but the train was run on a reasonably predictable and/or full seasonal basis) or of actual, regular intercity service along a route. The base end of what I'd consider would be either the Grand Canyon Railway or Alaska Railroad:

(1) One-way service is offered, and there _is_ a destination to be had.

(2) Service is regular (in the GCRR's case, it is daily, but I'll go with less frequent services considering that less frequent service has a precedent, so long as it is predictable at least in-seson; in the AR's case, it's daily on some routes in-season and less frequent out-of-season).

(3) The service is substantial in length (GCRR's service is 65 miles long; AR's is _far_ longer on the main line) and not just "within a property".

Whether the operation piggybacks on Amtrak, VIA, or another operator is beside the point.

Off the top of my head, I can think of:

-Auto-Train (1970s-80s)

-American Orient Express (1980s-2000s)

-American European Express (no idea when it ran, but apparently it ran WAS-CHI coupled to the Cap)

-Some operation down in Texas

-The Grand Canyon Railway (the sole success story to date here)

The Rio Grande's Ski Train is in a bit of an odd place...I can't quite tell if DRG&W kept that one as a seasonal PR tool even after handing the Zephyr operations over to Amtrak or not.

So...who else has come and gone, and what have they run?


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## jis (Feb 23, 2012)

Currently operating:

- Saratoga and North Creek (Saratoga - North Creek)

- Adirondack Railroad (Utica - Thendera)

Would say Pike's Peak meet your criteria?

How about Durango and Silverton?


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 23, 2012)

If D&S, how about the Mount Washington RR in NH?... Touristy yes, but it serves hikers.


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## Anderson (Feb 23, 2012)

I am inclined to count the D&S (though it's a toss-up, I'm inclined to count it since you've got a town on each end of the line and it runs nearly 50 miles) but not the Pike's Peak (distance is a bit of an issue there) or Mount Washington railroads (distance as well; the cog railways are their own category as far as I can tell). Both of those run into the "on the property" problem.


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## TexRail (Feb 23, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Could someone fill me in on the history of post-1971 private rail operations in the US? I know about the few continuing private operators from before Amtrak as well as Auto-Train, but I'm not as familiar with the others that made a go of either "regular excursion" services (i.e. they did a long-distance excursion train, but the train was run on a reasonably predictable and/or full seasonal basis) or of actual, regular intercity service along a route. The base end of what I'd consider would be either the Grand Canyon Railway or Alaska Railroad:
> 
> (1) One-way service is offered, and there _is_ a destination to be had.
> 
> ...


The Denver to Winter Park ski train is dead for reasons unknown. At least that is what I read from a CZ guide I bought along the route recently. From what I read, it did good business so I'm not sure why it shut down. But it definitely had the distance and served 2 cities and while I don't know that they offered one way tickets, there is nothing stopping you from making it a one way trip if you wanted to. I've spent a lot of time in that area and I always loved those bright yellow trains and the old school F7s and the vista dome cars. Oh and they even had the rounded off caboose car.


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## Opiatephoto (Feb 23, 2012)

TexRail said:


> The Denver to Winter Park ski train is dead for reasons unknown. At least that is what I read from a CZ guide I bought along the route recently. From what I read, it did good business so I'm not sure why it shut down. But it definitely had the distance and served 2 cities and while I don't know that they offered one way tickets, there is nothing stopping you from making it a one way trip if you wanted to. I've spent a lot of time in that area and I always loved those bright yellow trains and the old school F7s and the vista dome cars. Oh and they even had the rounded off caboose car.


It never made any money in it's history. The folks running it finally threw in the towel. A replacement company was going to start up, but Amtrak (who was going to provide the crews) and UP threw a wrench in by requiring extra insurance that made it too expensive and the new operator walked away in disgust shortly before their first rain was going to run. They had sold tickets and brought new equipment in and everything.

In it's last incarnation the ski train had F40PH for power and an open platform obs on the tail end.

Some pics of the Ski Train in transit to Canada where it now resides can be found here.


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## Trogdor (Feb 23, 2012)

There was an operator a few years ago that used (I think) AOE's cars and tacked them to the back of Amtrak trains to run as a premium/luxury service. It folded a short time after it started.


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## jis (Feb 24, 2012)

There is some talk of a similar thing starting up again between Washington DC and White Sulphur Springs in connection with the Greenbriar Resort.


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2012)

Would you add non-Via Canadian operator's to the list? Such as the Algoma Central, or BC Rail, or the train from Sept-Iles to Schefferville, Que., or Rocky Mountain Rail Tour?

And in Alaska, the private cars added to the ARR train run by Holland America, Princess, and Royal Caribbean cruislines.

And then there is the White Pass and Yukon.....


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## TexRail (Feb 24, 2012)

Opiatephoto said:


> TexRail said:
> 
> 
> > The Denver to Winter Park ski train is dead for reasons unknown. At least that is what I read from a CZ guide I bought along the route recently. From what I read, it did good business so I'm not sure why it shut down. But it definitely had the distance and served 2 cities and while I don't know that they offered one way tickets, there is nothing stopping you from making it a one way trip if you wanted to. I've spent a lot of time in that area and I always loved those bright yellow trains and the old school F7s and the vista dome cars. Oh and they even had the rounded off caboose car.
> ...


That is a shame. From what I heard it was often sold out so I wonder why they didn't try to raise prices a little. Thanks for the update. I hadn't seen the train since the mid 90s. I'm still sorry it is gone. Do you know what the Canadians are doing with it?


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 24, 2012)

TexRail said:


> That is a shame. From what I heard it was often sold out so I wonder why they didn't try to raise prices a little. Thanks for the update. I hadn't seen the train since the mid 90s. I'm still sorry it is gone. Do you know what the Canadians are doing with it?


It's now Algoma Central Railway's (CN) Agawa Canyon Tour Train

http://www.agawacany...tour/index.html


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## Anderson (Feb 24, 2012)

TexRail said:


> Opiatephoto said:
> 
> 
> > TexRail said:
> ...


My understanding was that it made a profit (however marginal) either until the 1980s or for at least a year or two in the 1980s (the mention on the website upon its closing was that it hadn't made a profit in 21 years, i.e. since 1988/89).

As to the other questions:

-I'm not as familiar with the Canadian operations. However, the Rocky Mountaineer would be an example of what I'd be looking at. I would also count some of BC Rail's services (though others, particularly the ones that they ran early on, seem to fall into the "generic commuter" bin from what I can tell)


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 24, 2012)

NS VIA Fan said:


> It's now Algoma Central Railway's (CN) Agawa Canyon Tour Train
> 
> http://www.agawacany...tour/index.html


There's an interesting history on the Ski Train equipment. It was built new for CN by Hawker Siddeley in 1968 as the "Tempo" then acquired by VIA and used jointly with Amtrak on the International. 

After that it went to Colorado as the Ski Train and has now come back full circle to CN for use on the Agawa Canyon Tour Train.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 24, 2012)

A lot of the trains under discussion here should be labeled "tourist trains" since they don't fulfill any inter-city service. The Durango and Silverton is a tourist train, offering a day on the rails behind real steam power. I doubt if anyone would actually buy a one-way ticket to get from Durango to Silverton.

The Algoma Central Agawa Canyon train is also a tourist operation, since it allows people to see scenic highlights, enjoy a brief stop at a park and return home the same day. The Algoma Central (now a part of CN), however, also runs a three-times-a-week train to the "end of steel" in Hearst which serves local residents who often have no other means of travel, including roads. There are a number of other such trains in Canada, like the Ontario Northland's "Northlander" and the train run by a First Nations tribe along the Quebec Northshore and Labador, which offer a much needed "frontier" service.

The only service similar to this in the U.S. is Alaska Railroad's Hurricane Turn.

The Ski Train was run by the Rio Grande for many years as a public service to the residents of Denver to travel to a ski area owned by the city of Denver. After the Rio Grande was merged with the Southern Pacific, the then owner of the SP (whose name drops from my memory at the moment) continued to run the ski train, even getting "new" equipment in the form of former CN cars. After the UP took over the SP, the train was run by, I believe, a private company owned by the former SP president. The train always lost money, however, and ended when the cars were sold to the Algoma Central canyon train operation. Iowa Pacific tried to continue the tradition but was blocked by some last minute insurance and other demands from Amtrak and UP.

American Orient Express tried to operate some high class sleeper service attached to Amtrak trains, but the high fares doomed that service fairly quickly.

Iowa Pacific has announced it will operate private sleepers and dining cars attached to the Lake Shore Limited and City of New Orleans on a regular basis, so it will be interesting to see how that works out. Iowa Pacific operates several tourist operations around the nation, including one in upstate New York that connects with Amtrak in Saratoga Springs and could be considered a real intercity service.

Maine Eastern operates trains from Rockland to Brunswick, Maine, that will soon connect with the Northeaster when it is extended to Brunswick, so that may also be considered a inter-city service when the Amtrak connection begins.


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## Anderson (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, SP was actually taken over by DRG&W (who opted for SP's name), so that's probably the story there pre-UP.  It seems quite possible that the losses were small enough that the "public service" PR was a sufficient offset <br><br>On the tourist trains...the pattern I've noticed about what works and what doesn't, as a rule, is that Indian-style "rail cruises" (in the vein of the seven-day tourist trips in India) don't tend to work well while Grand Canyon/Durango and Silverton-type trains do.  I do grant that most of these <i>are</i> tourist trains with little-to-no non-tourist utility (with the Grand Canyon railway, a one-way ticket would likely involve a bus trip the other way).<br><br>The jury is probably out on straight "intercity luxury" trains, which is what Iowa Pacific seems to be shooting for.  AOE only seems to have offered week-long cruises, and frankly that doomed it in my mind...taking the train is part of a fine vacation, but AOE's trips were totally dysfunctional as part of a vacation, and I don't think I would seriously have considered them, even at <i>far</i> lower prices.  Iowa Pacific's trip?  Let's just say that NYP-CHI or CHI-NYP is going to get a <i>very</i> good look from me at least once (particularly if they can work out some sort of early boarding in CHI so you can have dinner on the train for the trip east).  I don't foresee it being a regular thing by any stretch of the imagination, but it'll get a fair shake as long as the price isn't stratospheric (anything on par with a high-bucket bedroom would be workable, and there's probably a little bit of room available above and beyond that).*<br><br>I'll be <i>very</i> interested to see the reaction if IP's model starts working out and manages to allow for expansion, <i>particularly</i> as Amtrak pushes fares up.  Amtrak's reaction, in particular, will be interesting (since depending on their relative price ranges, I could see an argument that these are competitive services).  I figure there are three options:<br>1) Imitate.  The problem here is equipment; if Amtrak had a bunch of spare equipment laying around, this would be a matter of revamping cars.  But assuming that the equipment could be found and appropriate contracting arranged, I could see Amtrak trying something like VIA is doing (and I would note that their move seems to be a response to the Rocky Mountaineer in some regards).<br>2) Embrace.  Basically, work with IP to expand the service as much as possible (though they'd probably try and renegotiate the haulage fees at some point).  This option actually brings up some <i>very</i> interesting options, depending on the degree of success (for example, if IP continued adding cars to their service, could the two somehow put together a service expansion somewhere in the system?  What about a three-way agreement between Amtrak, a state, and IP?).  It also raises some interesting deal possibilities that Amtrak might try and facilitate (such as those diners that Amtrak is just dying to get rid of; for that matter, I'm wondering if some of the baggage cars that were formerly coaches couldn't be reworked the other way, and there's always the remaining Heritage sleepers).**<br>3) Resist/reject.  If Amtrak got too worried about competition (witness their equipment plan), they could probably find some way to try and force IP off of their trains to avoid competition.<br><br><br>*AOE's fares ran in the $4500-7000 per person range, but that was for seven days' accommodation.  Assuming a similar per diem cost, $1000 each way would be about where the numbers would fall...expensive, but not truly insane when you look at the top buckets that Amtrak is running these days.  Also, per Wikipedia, AOE operated from 1989-2008...19 years is nothing to sneeze at, though it seems possible that the operation might have changed owners at some point.<br><br>**With routes, I'm particularly thinking of a "protection" agreement on the Cardinal.  A 5-car set running NYP-CHI via the Cardinal running one round trip per week would, per Amtrak's PV tariff, kick in about $1 million/year (it's $8.50/mile for a set of five cars; multiply that by mileage, and you have $9749.50/trip).  For the CONO and LSL, it's about $8000/run.  None of this is pocket change, and a simple commitment to operate for a year at a time would make a measurable dent in Amtrak's operating deficit on those routes.<br>


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## jis (Feb 25, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I'll be _very_ interested to see the reaction if IP's model starts working out and manages to allow for expansion, _particularly_ as Amtrak pushes fares up. Amtrak's reaction, in particular, will be interesting (since depending on their relative price ranges, I could see an argument that these are competitive services).


If there is a private operation able and willing to provide a luxury service that they can sell then one could argue that service is one which Amtrak should cede to the private operation. Though because I find it hard to believe that any outfit will be able to provide true luxury service for something like $600 OW between NYP and CHI, I believe Amtrak Sleeper service will do just fine, with perhaps a little downward fare adjustment even in the face of a higher tier luxury service. For example I would have zero willingness to pay just for extra luxury beyond basic sleeping accommodation. That is why I thought that jacking up Sleeper prices to include all meals was a bad idea, but c'est la vie.


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## Anderson (Feb 25, 2012)

(Per the borked text above...so help me, I hate it when this stuff happens...


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## AlanB (Feb 25, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> American Orient Express tried to operate some high class sleeper service attached to Amtrak trains, but the high fares doomed that service fairly quickly.


Actually bad management doomed the AOE more than high fares. The owner of AOE ran his car building operation into the ground, Colorado Railcar (CRC), and borrowed from AOE to try to keep CRC afloat. The end result was that both CRC and AOE went under.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 25, 2012)

AlanB said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > American Orient Express tried to operate some high class sleeper service attached to Amtrak trains, but the high fares doomed that service fairly quickly.
> ...


Regarding management issues, I believe you are referring GrandeLuxe, not American Orient Express. The American Orient Express operation was sold to the CRC owner in 2006. With the change in ownership, the name was changed to GrandeLuxe. The GrandeLuxe service ended in 2008.


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## AlanB (Feb 26, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Bill,

You are correct, I had the two confused. Sorry!


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## railiner (Feb 29, 2012)

Digging deep in my memory banks....I vaguely recall a couple more of so-called 'piggyback operator's' in the earliest days of Amtrak. One was Four Winds Tours, which sold escorted all-inclusive tours on "private trains", which in reality were space on regular Amtrak trains, sometimes with exclusive occupancy of a car or two. This was a carry-over from the pre-Amtrak days done the same way...

Another operator was DePorter-Butterworth Tours, although I believe they limited their operation not to Amtrak, but to selling space in their own private cars regularly carried on The Rock's Peoria Rocket and Quad City Rocket, until The Rock's demise...

And then there was the Reno Fun Train I believe chartered from Amtrak.

Perhaps there were some more I forgot about......


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