# Empire Builder's Troubles continue into the Fall



## montana mike (Sep 13, 2014)

Just when we thought things were settling down a bit to "only" 2-3 hour delays for arrivals into CHI and close to normal arrival times (albeit with the extra time built in) into SEA/PDX, the Hi-Line route is starting to experience major delays again--and on weekends, which used to offer a little bit of better news. Today's EB in MN is now well over 7 hours late and getting worse. #7 in WA is over 6 1/2 hours late. Thank goodness for the extra train set.

I will be traveling on the EB's in late October and Amtrak informed me yesterday that the "extended and padded schedule" will continue for the foreseeable future, as BNSF would not offer assurances to Amtrak that the Empire Builders would be able to run anywhere close to normal transit times at any time in the near future. I wonder how that one train made it on time a couple weeks ago???

:-(


----------



## MikefromCrete (Sep 13, 2014)

Probably some BNSF executive was riding in a business car attached to the EB.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 14, 2014)

Today's update:

#8, still in MN, is now 10 1/2 hours late-rats!

#7, in eastern MT is now 5 1/2 hours behind

#7 in WA is 4 1/2 hours behind.

It has NOT been a good weekend for ANY of the Empire Builders.

:-(((


----------



## afigg (Sep 15, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Today's update:
> 
> #8, still in MN, is now 10 1/2 hours late-rats!
> 
> ...


#8 was very late 2 days in a row (9/11 and 9/12 departures), but on both trips, it lost a lot of time between GFK and FAR, over 5 hours one day, 4 hours the next. So there may have been a specific problem or stoppage for track work that stabbed those #8s.

Meanwhile #8 (9/13) departed MSP only 19 minutes late today. #8 appears to be changing from almost always at least 4,5,6 hours late to a random distribution between on-time and 12 hours late.


----------



## jebr (Sep 15, 2014)

Those two days Amtrak got stuck behind a freight train that had no crew and was not able to get around it via a siding, etc.


----------



## Tumbleweed (Sep 15, 2014)

jebr said:


> Those two days Amtrak got stuck behind a freight train that had no crew and was not able to get around it via a siding, etc.


Is the BNSF really that short of crews, and if they are, why can't the dispatcher anticipate it and put them in a hole before they run out of time so they can wait for a crew there rather than bring everything to a halt?


----------



## Henry Kisor (Sep 15, 2014)

Got into Portage yesterday on 8 (11) six and a half hours late. The operating crew went dead on the law somewhere south of Fargo and we had to wait at a crossroads for a relief crew. During that time one of the passengers opened a door, jumped off the train, hiked to the highway and was not seen again. A sheriff's vehicle appeared twenty minutes later but the wayward passenger evidently had disappeared.

On the other hand, the on-board service crew was excellent and so was that on No. 7 a couple of weeks earlier. The food on both runs was okay, as always. I didn't really miss any of the former amenities except for real china—we had AmPlastic dishes both ways. The diner crews told us that they were to have had real china on both runs but something went wrong with that train set's diner and they had to take one from the pool. I think both my trips had the same train set. The sleeper on both runs was the same one.

Only real downer to the trip was that we had to overnight at a motel in Portage because none of us wants to drive at night (we are all geezers). We resumed our journey home to Upper Michigan via auto the next morning.

It could have been a LOT worse.

A few days before, we took the Canadian from Jasper to Vancouver and it was a couple of hours late into Vancouver because of Alberta oil sands traffic.


----------



## Acela150 (Sep 15, 2014)

Per a post on TO.com the padded schedule is extended until November.


----------



## andersone (Sep 16, 2014)

The EB Mess continues,,, God Save the King !


----------



## fairviewroad (Sep 18, 2014)

FWIW, #8 arrived into CHI today 12 minutes early.

#7 arrived into SEA 4 minutes early.

#27 arrived into PDX 27 minutes early.

Granted, that's all with the benefit of the extra, extra padded schedule. But still! 

And of the 5 Builders currently on the Status Maps, none are in the red. The worst is 8(17) which

is about 80 minutes down just entering North Dakota (granted, it could lose a lot more overnight).


----------



## George K (Sep 18, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> FWIW, #8 arrived into CHI today 12 minutes early.
> 
> #7 arrived into SEA 4 minutes early.
> 
> ...


I've been following the EB (#7) closely ever since we booked our trip. We depart tomorrow on #7 and then to PDX.

Fingers crossed!


----------



## Phil S (Sep 19, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> And of the 5 Builders currently on the Status Maps, none are in the red. The worst is 8(17) which
> 
> is about 80 minutes down just entering North Dakota (granted, it could lose a lot more overnight).


Apparently it did. unless I mixed up dates. It's now "disrupted"". Track-a-clack has it stopped. Anybody know what happened? No news I could find. Thanks.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 19, 2014)

Showing #8 in MN now well over 6 hours late--almost all of the time lost between Grand Forks And fargo---arrrrrgh!


----------



## George K (Sep 19, 2014)

#7 is only 33 min late leaving Fargo. Let's see what happens as it traverses North Dakota. :angry2:

And I'm boarding #7 this afternoon!


----------



## jebr (Sep 19, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Showing #8 in MN now well over 6 hours late--almost all of the time lost between Grand Forks And fargo---arrrrrgh!


If this is another instance of BNSF blocking the line with a freight train without a crew...

(That's what happened to me on Sunday morning going through that area on #8. It's frustrating.)


----------



## PRae_Train (Sep 19, 2014)

From my log on 26-Aug EB 8:

[SIZE=10pt] • At Williston, 3.5 hours late at 7:30pm, but they sounded optimistic about Stanley and Minot, and I thought I’d get off for an evening walk in Minot about 9pm, but NOOOOOOO…a freight train just ahead of us near Stanley didn’t have enough power to get up a hill and was awaiting another engine…estimated additional delay an hour or so. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I found that whenever they announced ETA for a station ahead, it was always optimistic.[/SIZE]


----------



## George K (Sep 19, 2014)

Question: How do you know what the cause of the delay is? Scanners?


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Sep 19, 2014)

George K said:


> Question: How do you know what the cause of the delay is? Scanners?


Yes, a lot of people take scanners with them on their trips. I don't have one, but would find it interesting, especially during delays.


----------



## George K (Sep 19, 2014)

I've been following status of trains here: http://dixielandsoftware.net/Amtrak/status/StatusMaps/

Is there another resource I can use (leaving in 5 hours...too late to get a scanner!)?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Sep 19, 2014)

I've often wondered why Amtrak doesn't sell scanners aboard the train at this point. After the sixth or seventh inexplicable delay they'd probably have some takers.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Sep 19, 2014)

Amtrak has it's own tracker on the first page of their website, on the lower left.


----------



## hammer413 (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm scheduled to depart on the EB from Seattle on December 9th. When I purchased my ticket over the summer I was scheduled to depart at 4:40 pm. I just received an email stating my departure time has changed to 1:20. Why the earlier time? Are they padding their times for a better "on-time" appearance?


----------



## montana mike (Sep 19, 2014)

The very heavy BNSF freight traffic on the route of the Empire Builder continues, and while the construction season will be over by that time BOTH Amtrak and BNSF have admitted the Hi-Line just has too much traffic to go back to the old schedule in the "foreseeable future" (quoted to me by a BNSF employee this month). The extra three hours of padding eastbound and 90 minutes westbound has allowed a handful of trains to arrive in CHI on time (most arrive about 2-3 hours late) and perhaps 1/3 of the westbound trains to arrive in SEA/PDX on time. Without the padding none of these would likely even come close to the old schedule.

My BNSF contacts say realistically that 2016 is when things "could" get back to where they should be able to consider looking at the old schedule again.


----------



## Ispolkom (Sep 19, 2014)

montana mike said:


> My BNSF contacts say realistically that 2016 is when things "could" get back to where they should be able to consider looking at the old schedule again.


By 2016, not only will BNSF's improvements be coming to fruition, but new pipelines will start coming on line, removing oil traffic from the Hi Line.


----------



## TraneMan (Sep 19, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > My BNSF contacts say realistically that 2016 is when things "could" get back to where they should be able to consider looking at the old schedule again.
> ...


I thought they were not going to do the pipeline? Did something changed?


----------



## Ispolkom (Sep 19, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > montana mike said:
> ...


Which pipeline do you mean? There are a whole bunch of projects in the works. Two apparently fell apart, but two new were proposed. It's all a matter of getting guaranteed shipments set up to get financing to build the pipes. Well, that and getting approval for your route. My bet for first finished is the Sandpiper project, though the Minnesota PUC is unhappy about its route.

As far as I know, mature oil fields generally don't use rail, because pipelines or water transport are so much cheaper.


----------



## NorthShore (Sep 20, 2014)

What time does #7 leave Chicago now?


----------



## montana mike (Sep 20, 2014)

#8 in MN dropped another 6 hours+ thru eastern ND and MN again today. Darn!


----------



## fairviewroad (Sep 22, 2014)

Looks like the westbound detour in ND will continue through January, with a possible "reassessment" prior to the December
holiday period. Previously the detour was set to conclude at the end of September. This is technically a separate issue

from the "temporary" schedule (i.e. the extra padding), but they probably go hand-in-hand in terms of how long it will last.



> Empire Builder: Slight Schedule Changes Made While Delays Continue; Temporary Detour Affects Westbound Service in North Dakota
> 
> Effective through January 12, 2015
> 
> ...


----------



## George K (Sep 22, 2014)

I know this is a one-of. We boarded #7 on Friday afernoon and departed at the scheduled time. I was not paying too close attention to the new padded schedule, but here are some locations:

Arrived in minneapolis at about 10 PM. Daughter and I played cards until about 1, and went to bed. Arrived in Minot on schedule. Continuing west we were at East Glacier at about 7 or 7:30. We departed Spokane on #27 at 4 AM and arrived in Portland at about 11:30 or noon.

We did good.


----------



## neroden (Sep 22, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> Looks like the westbound detour in ND will continue through January, with a possible "reassessment" prior to the December
> 
> holiday period. Previously the detour was set to conclude at the end of September. This is technically a separate issue
> 
> from the "temporary" schedule (i.e. the extra padding), but they probably go hand-in-hand in terms of how long it will last.


I'd expect the detour to end before the "temporary schedule" actually. The detour could end as soon as BNSF finishes the additional sidings and track improvements on the Devil's Lake route from Fargo to Minot; whereas the "temporary schedule" will probably be needed until all the track improvements west of Minot are completed as well. :-(


----------



## montana mike (Sep 25, 2014)

#7 today in ND dropped over 5 hours as they traveled thru the choke point. #8 lost about 3 hours going eastbound thru the same area. So much for the timing improving in the Fall. Rats.......


----------



## montana mike (Sep 26, 2014)

Update for AM 9-26: #7 is now 7 hours behind in WA and #8 is now over 4 hours late in MN. I am not seeing any consistent improvement over what we saw this summer. My BNSF contacts say the congestion (with even heavier freight traffic forecast over the next three months-arrrgh) and construction continues, with construction to wind down in about 6 weeks. So it would appear that the mostly delayed Empire Builders will continue........


----------



## zephyr17 (Sep 26, 2014)

Amtrak notified me that my trip on 8 leaving Chicago 12/19 has my arrival time into Everett, WA "changed" so I guess the extended schedule is now official through the end of the year. I assumed that would be the case when I made the reservation, BTW.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 26, 2014)

BNSF people have told Amtrak all along that no real consistent improvements in on time performance can be expected until most of their track work is completed in 2016. So I guess it is just a long waiting game. Side note: Several senior BNSF people recommended to Amtrak that the current additional padding be made permanent btw. So far Amtrak is not too keen on that idea. I know the three hour shift in Eastbound arrivals to WFH made a mess of tourist travel this summer (arriving at 4 AM causes real challenges for both travelers and tourism related businesses alike). I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but the times I traveled on the Empire Builder this year under the new schedule, the number of pax getting off in WFH appeared to be significantly lower and the number getting on was lower too. Oh, well. It is what it is. At least we still have service, albeit somewhat of an adventure!


----------



## neroden (Sep 26, 2014)

Additional padding should never be made permanent; that's just a scam on the part of the Class Is to not do their job. Rule of thumb, whatever the timetable was in 1936 using steam, the Class Is should damn well be able to meet it today.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 27, 2014)

Well, reality, sadly, says otherwise. I personally don't see how the old schedule could be met given the current set of circumstances on the Hi-line, which will continue for many more months (note here: The local BNSF folks say, while some construction does continue over portions of the BNSF northern routes, most of the big initiatives for 2014 are wrapping up right now, with just "odds and ends" continuing for another 4-6 weeks. They have made it clear, what we see now is just about what will be available as far as capacity until construction starts up in earnest late spring 2015). I look at the BNSF stats each week and they really are not improving much at all, in fact many indicators actually got worse this week. #8 arrives in Chicago, on average over three hours late and that is with the 3 hours of additional padding that was added to the schedule. That's 6 hours of additional transit time from SEA/PDX to CHI on average for every run. A lot of "good things" need to happen over the next couple of years on this segment of BNSF trackage for ANY passenger train to resume decent timekeeping.


----------



## neroden (Sep 27, 2014)

Still accepting freight traffic they can't handle. Gotta learn to say "not this year" to the oil drillers.


----------



## MikefromCrete (Sep 27, 2014)

neroden said:


> Still accepting freight traffic they can't handle. Gotta learn to say "not this year" to the oil drillers.


You expect a company to turn down money?


----------



## montana mike (Sep 27, 2014)

neroden said:


> Still accepting freight traffic they can't handle. Gotta learn to say "not this year" to the oil drillers.


Interestingly, when I asked about the impact of the oil trains, the BNSF people said while these were a factor, it was the overall freight loadings-with a record grain load this year and intermodal traffic, leading the way. They admitted that the railroad has been totally remiss in not forecasting the increases in LD freight movements.

Wow--I just saw #8 dropped over 6 hours between DVL and GFK this AM, another EB down the tubes. Arrrrgh.


----------



## yarrow (Sep 27, 2014)

i was on 27 into pdx yesterday. 7 hours late. day before yesterday and today 7/27 running on time. we were told freight congestion and slow orders for our delays. why on time one day and 7 hours late the next?


----------



## montana mike (Sep 27, 2014)

And #8, still west of MSP is now over 9 hours late--good grief. This rivals the worst mess from earlier in the summer. So much for hoping to see a return to a more "normal" timekeeping operation. Bummer.

Three Hours Later: #8 is going nowhere just outside of RDW, looks like the pax on this train are in for an early Saturday AM arrival in CHI.

SIX HOURS LATER: In one of life's little ironies, the LSL isn't leaving CHI until 11 PM at the earliest tonight, and STILL any pax on the very, very late #8 chugging along in WI now will miss the LSL connection because today's #8 is now 9 1/2 hours late and won't arrive CHI until 1 or 2 AM on Saturday--terrible!

:-(


----------



## montana mike (Sep 28, 2014)

Ahhh,nothing like pulling into CHI at 1 AM on a Sunday morning. Tough to get a cab and just delightful to walk around the deserted streets (except for drunks and other unfriendlies). Today's #8 must have been one heck of a trip!

:-((


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 28, 2014)

Yes, Chicago Union Station is not very friendly to late-arriving Amtrak passengers.

Not after midnight.

While the rest of the town hops -- man the blues bars don';t close until 04:00 or so.

And then it's only a couple hours until CUS opens again, to wait for the nex-day trains -- total BS

Most always, anyone with a clue can get through an Amtrak misconnect, especially these EB ones that have been known and publicized for a year or two.

As for saying "no, poor travelers have no clue" -- worry, most LD customers on the Hi-Line (according to latest stats) are "visiting relatives"

And the rellies know -

The EB is almost always late. but it almost always runs.


----------



## NorthShore (Sep 29, 2014)

How do the early departure times of the temporary schedule affect scenery watching eastbound out of Seattle and through Glacier National Park?


----------



## montana mike (Sep 29, 2014)

This time of the year almost all of the transit thru the Park is during the dark--unfortunately-with the 3 hour earlier start. it just starts getting light as you leave the Park.

:-(


----------



## dlagrua (Sep 29, 2014)

In June on our way back from SEA the EB arrived in CHI at around 3:15 AM thereby causing all passengers with connections East to miss them. By the time everyone got their baggage it was nearly 4 AM and we were bussed to a Doubletree hotel outside the city limits arriving at 4:30 AM. We were checked in and got to sleep at 5 AM only to awake at 10AM for breakfast and the 11 AM bus ride back to CUS.

With 250 oil trains departing the Bakken region and clogging the rails in No Dakota every week, short of a second track I do not see how the EB schedule can or will improve anytime soon. If you decide to take the EB going East plan on spending the evening in Chicago. The schedule is too unpredictable to do anything less.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 29, 2014)

BNSF's plans thru 2015 are to double track about 115 miles of the Hi-Line route (plus some additional sidings in key locations)-so far in 2014 about 30 miles was double tracked. With the existing double track that still means perhaps a thousand miles of single track (and some sidings) along the entire route. Realistically, I don't think BNSF has enough resources to double track all of the Hi-Line route, nor do they need to do so. The main choke points run from eastern MT into western MN. If they could concentrate on greatly increasing capacity on this stretch that would likely make the most difference. The majority of the oil moves to the east and south btw.

What many people are also missing is the notable increase in Intermodal traffic as well. Trucking firms are putting more and more vans on the trains for long haul movements. Not as fast as teams of drivers, but a heck of a lot cheaper.


----------



## George Harris (Sep 29, 2014)

Just a few years back BNSF went through the same massive double tracking operation on the ex ATSF freight line. Expect much the same operation here. However, the climate is much harsher and the work season shorter. Expect this work to continue for a few years until capacity catches up with traffic volume. Exactly when that will be no one is willing to predict as changes in traffic volume will result in changes in targeted capacity increases.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 29, 2014)

The local BNSF folks say they have been told no additional double tracking after 2015 (only additional sidings at additional locations), which would mean they are figuring that the 115 miles worth of new tracks is going to solve the current problems. I asked them point blank-do they think this will solve the current issues-and everyone of them here in MT that I have spoken with has said NO! Hmmmm, perhaps a disconnect between the folks working "in the trenches" and up in the ivory tower of senior management????

PS--I agree totally that the climate issue along the Hi-Line presents an entirely different challenge, since the construction season is much shorter (6-7 months) and the weather conditions change dramatically (some places in eastern MT and ND see 100 degrees in the summer and 40 below in the winter!!)


----------



## neroden (Sep 30, 2014)

The plan, IIRC, is double track from Glasgow MT (very little oil or grain traffic west of there) to the point where the Devil's Lake route splits from the KO route -- presumably directional running east of there with sidings for wrong-way Amtraks & local freights.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 30, 2014)

Actually quite a lot of Grain traffic going west--I see it every day here in WFH!


----------



## NorthShore (Sep 30, 2014)

What might schedules look like if they broke the route into two sections terminating at St. Paul? Perhaps a morning departure from Chicago turning for an overnight back? And an afternoon/evening #8 arrival at MSP turning back west by Midnight?

You can spend your layover at Mickeys. They're open round the clock.


----------



## PRae_Train (Sep 30, 2014)

Any chance that BNSF can be made to pay the extra passenger and personnel costs (food, overtime, and hotels) for causing Amtrak delays and missed connections?


----------



## Ryan (Sep 30, 2014)

Of course not.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 30, 2014)

Looking at the "trend" over the past couple weeks, except for a couple really terrible delays, the EB's are at least doing somewhat better than the poor CL's and LSL's are now. I guess we need to be thankful for any modest improvements at this point. The extra padding will stay at least thru January (and likely thru next construction season as well), but perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel that transit times may not get any worse. Maybe.....


----------



## neroden (Sep 30, 2014)

NorthShore said:


> What might schedules look like if they broke the route into two sections terminating at St. Paul? Perhaps a morning departure from Chicago turning for an overnight back? And an afternoon/evening #8 arrival at MSP turning back west by Midnight?


It would reveal that CP is delaying trains too. :-(


----------



## tim49424 (Sep 30, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Looking at the "trend" over the past couple weeks, except for a couple really terrible delays, the EB's are at least doing somewhat better than the poor CL's and LSL's are now. I guess we need to be thankful for any modest improvements at this point. The extra padding will stay at least thru January (and likely thru next construction season as well), but perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel that transit times may not get any worse. Maybe.....


The westbound #7 is actually doing pretty decently over the past few months.....not great but far far better than #8's timekeeping.


----------



## montana mike (Sep 30, 2014)

Having the extra 90- minutes in the schedule has indeed helped the westbound EB's


----------



## tim49424 (Oct 1, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Having the extra 90- minutes in the schedule has indeed helped the westbound EB's


I think the detour has as well. We'll see how well it does six weeks or so from now when the snow and cold temperatures start out your way.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 2, 2014)

Just when I thought things might have settled down to reasonable timekeeping for #8, the sucker drops almost 6 hours between Rugby and Grand Forks this AM and is now just under 7 hours behind!! Terrible. So it looks like the EB will pull into CHI very late tonight and once again miss all of the connections. This is really getting frustrating.


----------



## NW cannonball (Oct 2, 2014)

It aint just us Amtrak riders that are getting annnoyed.

Every week or so the local paper (the strib) has a piece on how the -- farmers, electric company, taconite producers, -- all getting really really poor service from the railroad.

You want coal for your power plant -- wait a few months -- burn your stockpile down to a week or two - then pay BNSF extra to get a few coal trains to SHERCO.

You thought you had a contract to ship your 2013 harvest -- ha ha ha ! BNSF might ship your grain in 2014 -- or 2015 -- he he.

The containers from the far east get through more or less on time.

Yeah, I know the BOP here (Ban on Politics) -- but --

Hey -- at least 3 states (MN,CO,ND) -- their politicians are forced to scream bloody murder -- and are doing so -- but -- BNSF don't give a --*- .

I think - BNSF - letting Amtrak's EB run "only" a few hours late -- BNSF is a sweetheart.

BNSF is being good to Amtrak, compared to how BNSF is not serving ag and mining customers.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 2, 2014)

And if you read BNSF's latest weekly statement of how they are doing the operating parameters actual slipped recently.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 3, 2014)

The second day in a row that #8 has lost 5 or more hours in ND. Not looking good again. My BNSF guys say the "Fall shipping season" is picking up now and this could adversely effect the timekeeping considerably-again!!


----------



## MrFSS (Oct 3, 2014)

montana mike said:


> The second day in a row that #8 has lost 5 or more hours in ND. Not looking good again. My BNSF guys say the "Fall shipping season" is picking up now and this could adversely effect the timekeeping considerably-again!!


And I guess the only difference between the "Fall" shipping season and the "Spring" and "Summer" shipping seasons is the name!


----------



## montana mike (Oct 3, 2014)

LOL. Usually, more grain moves in the Fall, especially for export. The choke point appears to continue to be the same stretch in ND that that plagued the EBs all year long. It makes one wonder what all of the hundreds of millions of dollars they spent this year on "improving performance" went to, when the delays now aren't substantially different than they were just a few months ago. Oh, well......


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 3, 2014)

Crap. I figured it was on a good run so far.. We are going to CHI in a few weeks.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 3, 2014)

Something must be going on again in the "North Dakota Triangle". Even my local BNSF folks are a little puzzled by these long delays (they had been told by the BNSF HQ people that delays thru this area should average 2+ hours the rest of the year). I have asked them to see what they can find out. I do know the construction effort continues thru at least the end of October (officially until early November), so they may be doing a full court press on some key parts of the plan. But the added agro demand to move grain is likely not helping either.

I am scheduled to travel on the EBs at the end of Oct and "connect" to the LSL in CHI--should be an adventure!!!

Update: #8 lost another hour in MN, now well over 6 hours late--arrrrgh.


----------



## neroden (Oct 3, 2014)

"What a way to run a railroad."


----------



## montana mike (Oct 3, 2014)

Looking at the four EB's on the line right now, three are seriously late again!!! And Montana is now causing 3-4 hour delays-rats. Looks like BNSF is really struggling with keeping their system going on the Hi-Line. Their weekly service advisory had little to cheer about--tiny improvements on a very dismal operating performance. One of my BNSF guys got back to me and just shook his head and said while he hoped things wouldn't return to the problems experienced early last summer, BNSF people are telling him that "the Amtrak trains are going to struggle significantly with timekeeping throughout the winter". This is not a good sign.


----------



## Tumbleweed (Oct 3, 2014)

Looks like 7 and 8 through North Dakota will play musical chairs effective Sunday......


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

Yep. #8 in MT tonight is now well over 6 hours late. All of the time dropped in MT today. Not good.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

My BNSF contact here in WFH pointed out to me last night that when you consider the 3 hour extra padding in the eastbound schedule and the still frequent 4-6 hour delays in arrivals at CHI, little has changed since the EB's were experiencing 8-10 hour delays early last summer. He has a point--sadly. This AM's #8 still in ND is now well over 7 hours behind btw.

:-(


----------



## neroden (Oct 4, 2014)

BNSF's stated plan was to double-track from Glasgow to Minot -- have they actually done that yet? Used to be that would be a month's work for a very large number of people....

Seems to me like the department in charge of hiring trackworkers at BNSF hasn't really gotten up to speed...


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

I believe they are about 30% thru that plan, with more to happen next year. I was reading the BNSF submission to the STB this week and an ominous flag popped up big time. The number of Ag shipments that are behind schedule is rising steadily and has risen every week in September. They are now considerably above their target and where they promised the STB they would be at this time. I guess the BNSF guy was accurate when he said the increasing Ag shipments were beginning to take their toll on the Hi-Line's ability to handle them in a decent manner. He also said the crewing situation is verrrrry strained, with trained and available crews in "tight supply". I have noticed that the yard in WFH is just chocked full of idle trains at the moment. There are always some trains here. It's a busy place, but it is very full right now.


----------



## neroden (Oct 4, 2014)

30%? The execs really didn't take the problem seriously, did they?

I realize it takes a grossly excessive amount of time to train new engineers & conductors, thanks to a fairly brainless set of FRA rules -- but I'm fairly sure the same is NOT true of track workers. A sustained push could have hired a lot of temporary track workers. That's how things have always been done in construction...



montana mike said:


> The number of Ag shipments that are behind schedule is rising steadily and has risen every week in September. They are now considerably above their target and where they promised the STB they would be at this time.


This is a position you do NOT want to be in as a railroad exec; breaking your promises to the STB is bad, bad, bad. Do they want to be subject to emergency orders, taking the management of the railroad away from them? 'Cause that's what they seem to be asking for.
Although they've dug themselves into a giant hole through incompetence, there are still ways out. BNSF could always stop shipping that damn Bakken oil in order to catch up on everything else. Oil doesn't go rotten, it can just be left in the ground until later. Oil money is bad long-term business anyway since the oil eventually runs out -- grain is recurring. Seems like Carl Ice is too short-term-greedy.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

One minor issue--BNSF, according to their own people, does NOT have sufficient grain cars to handle the demand. The Oil is secondary, especially since the majority of those shipments ahead east. Note that the delay issues are now also appearing in MT over the past week or so, where much of the grain needs to be moved from to ports in the west and some to the midwest.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

#8 in MN now approaching 9 hours late!!! Looks like an arrival in CHI between 1 and 2 AM on Sunday--what a terrible performance!


----------



## tim49424 (Oct 4, 2014)

I wonder how the timekeeping will be affected starting tomorrow when 7 and 8 flip-flop the detour through the KO sub.


----------



## yarrow (Oct 4, 2014)

sitting in pdx union station waiting to take the afternoon builder to spk. one silver lining is the extra train set which makes for on time departures from sea/pdx and on-time arrival in spk. remember what it was like before the extra train set was added? frequent turns in spk and late departures from sea/pdx


----------



## neroden (Oct 4, 2014)

montana mike said:


> One minor issue--BNSF, according to their own people, does NOT have sufficient grain cars to handle the demand.


Oh good grief. Can they rent some from GATX?
No sympathy for top management. It seemed pretty likely *last spring* that there was going to be a bumper crop this year. They had time to order new cars from Trinity Industries or FreightCar America or American Railcar Industries or Greenbrier.

They had access to the projections regarding demand levels, including the weather & crop projections. It seems like they just didn't believe them.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 4, 2014)

Not trying to defend their inability to plan, just stating the facts.

:-(


----------



## neroden (Oct 4, 2014)

I may be expressing extra frustration because I have stock in both Berkshire Hathaway and Norfolk Southern. So it's partly my money they're pissing away by mismanaging and alienating their customers.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 6, 2014)

Monday Morning and NO improvement in the Empire Builder timekeeping. In fact it's even worse this AM. #8 is still in ND, about 7 hours behind now and #7 in MN is almost 6 hours behind. Good Brief!!!! And this is with all of that extra padding in the schedule. This route is headed for a meltdown as well.

My trip at the end of the month on the EBs and then LSL could be one of those "epic" treks.......


----------



## Bwidth (Oct 6, 2014)

We are on the 8 right now sitting on a wayside before Fargo because the crew is out of hours. With the additional 3 hours of padding added from Seattle we will most likely not get into St Paul until 3 pm meaning we will be approximately 11 hours late (if we're lucky!). We have made numerous stops to let freight trains pass with frack sand, oil and wheat.


----------



## neroden (Oct 6, 2014)

Again: were all the freight trains passing in the opposite direction?

You should never, EVER be passed by a freight going in the same direction (unless, perhaps, you're stopped at a station); that's a violation of federal law. If it occurs it should be reported to the STB.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 6, 2014)

Looking at BNSF's letter to the STB of 10-3-14 their past due commitment to the STB was no greater than 2000 by September, and they have now shot past 4000 and this number is climbing at an increasing rate. BNSF also shows that they did not refuse ANY orders last week at all, and of course their delayed order status went thru the roof. The number of rail cars in the system continues at a pace that is above 200,000, which, according to my local BNSF contacts, is not sustainable given the current infrastructure (locomotives, tracks and people). How do you spell "MELTDOWN"?????


----------



## Tumbleweed (Oct 6, 2014)

According to this service alert, http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251626864028 it appears 7/27 will go via DVL at least until Jan 12, 2015....any guesses if that will continue on into February? I'm trying to make plans to get to DVL the first part of Feb.....


----------



## montana mike (Oct 6, 2014)

No guarantees-ever-but the local BNSF folks here in western MT say while they will "reevaluate" things in January, it is likely the routes will stay the same until all construction is finished on the Hi-Line. BUT, that is just the thinking now, who knows what the situation will be by then!


----------



## Tumbleweed (Oct 6, 2014)

montana mike said:


> No guarantees-ever-but the local BNSF folks here in western MT say while they will "reevaluate" things in January, it is likely the routes will stay the same until all construction is finished on the Hi-Line. BUT, that is just the thinking now, who knows what the situation will be by then!


Thanks! I'll play it by ear I guess.....


----------



## neroden (Oct 6, 2014)

Total management incompetence.

I guess Buffett didn't realize he'd bought a railroad managed by fools. BNSF needs to:

(1) in the short term, match its level of accepted new orders with its capacity

(2) in the long term, match its capacity with the requested level of new orders

BNSF management appears to be doing neither. With new orders still increasing, in the immediate term they should be embargoed (customers told that they won't get pickup for weeks), and meanwhile BNSF should be planning *additional* track expansion ASAP, and hiring the workers to do it. But apparently instead they're accepting new orders which they can't deliver right now (creating "never again" freight customers who will switch to trucks, or perhaps CP) -- and not expanding to match demand, either. Yeesh.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 7, 2014)

Agree. And today I was told that their construction season will likely wind up a bit early. Not due to completion of certain projects, but because of a lack of manpower to complete them. Off the record it was shared that BNSF is woefully behind in a number of metrics to "fix" the problems. Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy for my train ride in a couple of weeks. I enjoy taking the train, but adding 8+ hours to a scheduled 35 hour trip to arrive in CHI in the wee hours of the AM is not my idea of a great way to start a business trip.

Meanwhile today's #7 now in MT is 9 hours late and #8 in ND is 7 hours late--good grief!!! Not only no improvement over last summer, but actually getting worse.

:-(


----------



## PRR 60 (Oct 7, 2014)

neroden said:


> Again: were all the freight trains passing in the opposite direction?
> 
> You should never, EVER be passed by a freight going in the same direction (unless, perhaps, you're stopped at a station); that's a violation of federal law. If it occurs it should be reported to the STB.


If the crew is out of hours and they are waiting for a new crew, then freights certainly could pass in either direction without violating Amtrak's dispatch preference. That may or may not happen at a station.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 7, 2014)

Was #7 stopped at SPK today? #8 is well over 6 hours late as well


----------



## The Whistler (Oct 7, 2014)

If there is to be any improvement in OT performance, a double or perhaps triple track is needed on the EB route. Oil traffic is increasing weekly and as long as there is no pipeline to the Bakkens will keep increasing .

*The problem all comes down to Wall Street* that in its infinite quest for higher and higher profits forces US industry to cut its labor force, cut its capital expenditures to the bone so that they can give the greedy investors more, more & more return with less, less & less. As for new track; the line across NJ from Camden to Atlantic City (from border to border, end to end) of 55.5 miles was built in 1889 and completed in only 30 days. With the modern machinery, small track crews and the never ending government red tape of today we refuse to duplicate the efficiency of over 100 years ago that was done with nearly 100% manual labor. How low we have sunk! .


----------



## montana mike (Oct 7, 2014)

Well, Mr. Buffett and his minions are in charge of BNSF and ever since they took over BNSF has gone down hill. As the local BNSF employees have told me on several occasions, the railroad is now run as a "profit center" and not a railroad. They must compete with the other components of Mr. Buffett's empire for capital and attention and indeed long range planning has been non-existent, lurching from one crisis to the next. Sad to see this once great railroad sink so low.


----------



## afigg (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, the EB #8(10/6) had a good run, it arrived at Chicago at 4:30 PM CT, only 35 minutes late. Looking at the status maps archive database, that is the earliest arrival in CHI since September 18.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 9, 2014)

As my uncle often said: A blind pig stumbles on an acorn every once in a while.


----------



## NW cannonball (Oct 9, 2014)

montana mike said:


> As my uncle often said: A blind pig stumbles on an acorn every once in a while.


:wacko:


----------



## MnMotherMary (Oct 9, 2014)

Let the good times roll & continue! We are taking our grandkids(3&5) on their 1st train trip. Starting short with an overnight from Minneapolis/St.Paul to Lacrosse, Wi. and back. Leaving Saturday 10/18 and returning Sunday 10/19. Hopefully the delay won't be too late that we get a bus to Lacrosse :-( They are excited to hear "ALL ABOARD"


----------



## montana mike (Oct 9, 2014)

If BNSF's promises are to be believed (holding my nose here), hopefully the Empire Builders won't be too late. The westbound train has been fairly close to schedule lately. It has been the Eastbound trains that are the wild card and have been very tardy at times. We will all think good thoughts for two reasonably on time departures for you!!


----------



## Ispolkom (Oct 9, 2014)

I was amazed to arrive in St. Paul Monday morning only an hour late. Best Empire Builder performance in ages. I live in hope, since with my mother's declining health, I'm on the train at least once a month.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 10, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> I was amazed to arrive in St. Paul Monday morning only an hour late. Best Empire Builder performance in ages. I live in hope, since with my mother's declining health, I'm on the train at least once a month.


Today's #8 dropped another 2 1/2 hours between MSP and CHI and arrived in CHI 3 1/2 hours late. Sad to say this was one of the better runs in the past couple of weeks. At least they could make some of the connections.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 10, 2014)

MnMotherMary said:


> Let the good times roll & continue! We are taking our grandkids(3&5) on their 1st train trip. Starting short with an overnight from Minneapolis/St.Paul to Lacrosse, Wi. and back. Leaving Saturday 10/18 and returning Sunday 10/19. Hopefully the delay won't be too late that we get a bus to Lacrosse :-( They are excited to hear "ALL ABOARD"


The train doesn't travel overnight from MSP to LSE. Your trip home from there will be in the evening.

Have a great trip with the grandkids!! I am thinking of taking a good friend of mine son on a short trip next year for his birthday as he loves train!


----------



## George K (Oct 11, 2014)

http://www.prairiebizmag.com/event/article/id/21206/



> Amtrak’s temporary detour of Empire Builder trains has reversed directions in North Dakota.
> Eastbound passengers boarding or leaving Amtrak in northern and northeastern North Dakota are now traveling by buses between Minot and Fargo, bypassing Rugby, Devils Lake and Grand Forks, while westbound passengers are taking the train at those stops.
> 
> That’s a reversal of the detour direction that has been in place since this past spring, as Amtrak deals with construction projects being done this year by BNSF Railway in North Dakota, according to Marc Magliari, Amtrak spokesman.
> ...


Hooray! We get to take THE BUS!!!


----------



## neroden (Oct 11, 2014)

I have suspicions regarding the directional reversal here.

I'm not sure why they had the directional running going the other way before -- but now they have "right hand running". Since BNSF is building a double-track railway from the junction point to Glasgow, MT, and they probably intend to use right-hand running on that railway, they would want to continue the same directional pattern east of there.

Hopefully enough sidings will get built on the Devil's Lake line to run the eastbounds that way again soon.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 11, 2014)

Looking like Montana is rurally starting to take its toll on the EBs. The increase in grain shipments and ongoing track work has caused 4-5 hour delays in eastern MT. Rats.


----------



## SteveSFL (Oct 12, 2014)

On my EB trip in late September -- train 8 of 9/27 -- we actually arrived at midway station early (7:30). But there we had to pick up a private car and they weren't ready because they were so used to train being late. We ended up losing almost 2 hours there. I believe if it hadn't been for the private car, our EB would have been only the second on-time arrival into CHI in almost a year.


----------



## George K (Oct 12, 2014)

That's very interesting. I wonder if Amtrak has some kind of penalties for private railcars that are not ready to be picked up at the scheduled time. If not, they should. It should be the owners' responsibilities to assure that they're ready to go at the scheduled time.


----------



## Bumblebone (Oct 12, 2014)

Well ... I just bought tickets for Empire Builder, from WDL to PDX ... in December. With connecting flight the next morning in PDX.

What are my chances of the train actually being a WHOLE DAY late? That freaks me out a little since the connecting flight a day later was a huge bump in price.

Are the trains ever 20+ hours late?


----------



## jebr (Oct 13, 2014)

Bumblebone said:


> Well ... I just bought tickets for Empire Builder, from WDL to PDX ... in December. With connecting flight the next morning in PDX.
> 
> What are my chances of the train actually being a WHOLE DAY late? That freaks me out a little since the connecting flight a day later was a huge bump in price.
> 
> Are the trains ever 20+ hours late?


Very rarely.


----------



## afigg (Oct 14, 2014)

This is a change of pace. EB #8 (10/11) arrived at CHI on-time and #8 (10/12) arrived CHI today 20 minutes early. Lighter freight traffic over the Columbus day holiday weekend was likely a significant factor, but still on-time or early 2 days in a row? Been a while since that happened.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 15, 2014)

Meanwhile #7, still in far western Washington state is now well over 7 hours behind, having lost all of that time during it's trek over the Hi-line. A miserable performance for the westbound Empire Builder today. #8 in MN is back to the usual 3+ hours behind as they crawl into MSP this morning.


----------



## Joe F (Oct 15, 2014)

#7(13)'s tardiness wasn't helped by losing 3 hours between Red Wing and MSP. Not sure what happened in that 46-mile stretch.


----------



## fairviewroad (Oct 15, 2014)

Bumblebone said:


> Well ... I just bought tickets for Empire Builder, from WDL to PDX ... in December. With connecting flight the next morning in PDX.
> 
> What are my chances of the train actually being a WHOLE DAY late? That freaks me out a little since the connecting flight a day later was a huge bump in price.
> 
> Are the trains ever 20+ hours late?


You'll be fine.

In an absolutely worst case scenario, you could save a little time by hopping off the train in VAN and getting a cab to the airport. It's actually

a shorter cab ride anyhow than from the PDX Amtrak station. (Though of course from PDX-Amtrak you can take light rail out to the airport

if you have the time).

IME there are usually cabs at VAN though of course if you arrive in the middle of the night I wouldn't count on it, but you could find the # for a

local cab company ahead of time and give them a call when you're about 30 minutes out from VAN.

But again, that's really a slim-chance scenario that you'd be that late.


----------



## neroden (Oct 15, 2014)

George K said:


> That's very interesting. I wonder if Amtrak has some kind of penalties for private railcars that are not ready to be picked up at the scheduled time. If not, they should. It should be the owners' responsibilities to assure that they're ready to go at the scheduled time.


Oddly I don't see such a charge listed on the private car tariff.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 15, 2014)

Joe F said:


> #7(13)'s tardiness wasn't helped by losing 3 hours between Red Wing and MSP. Not sure what happened in that 46-mile stretch.


A friend was on that train, and he said a car thought the crossing was a parking lot.. He never did say if it was hit or what.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## William W. (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm honestly surprised that the EB connection with the CS at PDX is still valid.

I booked it a few months ago when the EB was scheduled to arrive at 1030 (the trip is scheduled for 01.05).

When they reinstated the modified schedule, they changed the arrival time to 1140.

The connection disappeared from the list of published routes for a few weeks, but then returned.

I'm pretty much planning on spending in night in Portland (I booked a refundable hotel in LA).


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 15, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> Joe F said:
> 
> 
> > #7(13)'s tardiness wasn't helped by losing 3 hours between Red Wing and MSP. Not sure what happened in that 46-mile stretch.
> ...





> October 14, 2014 6:07 pm • Marcia Ratliff Daily News
> 
> (0) Comments
> 
> ...


----------



## acelafan (Oct 16, 2014)

jebr said:


> Bumblebone said:
> 
> 
> > Well ... I just bought tickets for Empire Builder, from WDL to PDX ... in December. With connecting flight the next morning in PDX.
> ...


Indeed - rarely. Since January 1, 2013 train #27 has arrived into PDX 12+ hours late on 13 occasions:







(From http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?train_num=27&station=pdx&date_start=1%2F1%2F2013&date_end=12%2F31%2F2014&sort=d_ar&sort_dir=DESC&limit=&co=gteq&limit_mins=720 )


----------



## montana mike (Oct 16, 2014)

Today's #7, currently in central MT lost 7 hours on the Hi-Line. This is happening with increased regularity lately. Not a good sign.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 16, 2014)

Something must be going on, #8 is not showing up on the map.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 17, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> Something must be going on, #8 is not showing up on the map.
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


#8 is there-just left MOT just under 3 hours late. Lost most of the time in MT. #7 now 8 hours late in western MT. Without that extra train set sitting in PDX and SEA this route would be a disaster.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 19, 2014)

10-19 Update on BNSF's efforts to improve timekeeping on the Hi-Line. My BNSF guys say that by the time the construction season closes (within the next few weeks) BNSF will have completed 45% of the double tracking they plan to install between 2014 and 2016. Which is what they had planned to do this year. On the not so good news side: Their weekly report of delayed shipments remains well over 4000. Which is more than DOUBLE where they have promised the STB they would be by this time in 2014. The past week did not go up any more, but it didn't decline any either. Over the past week most #8's have arrived between 1-3 hours late in CHI-town, with one arrival on time!! This is an improvement to be sure, so just maybe the worst is over????

One of the BNSF contacts said that they have noticed a modest decrease in oil shipments from ND with the price of crude oil dropping to around $80/bbl, so if the oil price goes back up again might the shipments increase as well??? One never knows.


----------



## MnMotherMary (Oct 20, 2014)

Well, we had a great trip on the Empire Builder Saturday 10/18 and returning Sunday 10/19.

We were up at 6am and checked train tracker and seen it was running 2 hours late, which was ok because we didn't have to wake up the grandkids too early. We also received a text telling about the late arrival. We picked them up and made it too the fabulously restored Union Depot in downtown St. Paul around 8:30. We explored the depot and found a nice park right outside the depot.

The train arrived around 10am and it was really nice how the passengers that were boarding were coming down from the 2nd floor the departing passengers were leaving in a different area. The old station everyone inside had to wait for everyone departing to start loading.

Enjoyable ride along the Mississippi with the fall colors. The kids loved it. We had lunch on the train so when we arrived in La Crosse we were able to make it on a 1:30 riverboat cruise. We stayed at the Radisson which offered a free shuttle to & from the station and were able to walk to restaurants, stores and museum's in the downtown riverfront.

The train arrived right on time for our return home on Sunday night @ 7:10pm. We got on the train and got settled in our seats when the 3 year old leaned up against the window and said "I love you train"


----------



## Ryan (Oct 20, 2014)

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Oct 20, 2014)

Cue Dean Martin singing " Memories are made of this!"


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 20, 2014)

When did they charge the the time slot? I have not received a call about this on our upcoming trip on Friday.


-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## PRR 60 (Oct 20, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> When did they charge the the time slot? I have not received a call about this on our upcoming trip on Friday.


The increased dwell for #8 at MSP and the later schedule for points east is to accommodate an CP project. It started today (10/20) ends this Thursday (10/23). Your trip Friday will not be affected.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 20, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > When did they charge the the time slot? I have not received a call about this on our upcoming trip on Friday.
> ...


Yay! Thanks!

We are fine if there is a delay tho!


----------



## andersone (Oct 21, 2014)

When in Lacrosse, don't miss Buzzard Billy's downtown

thoroughly enjoyed lunch there


----------



## montana mike (Oct 21, 2014)

Strange timekeeping for the EB's today. Both #7's are running quite late-with the one in WA almost 6 1/2 hours late, while the two #8's are on time.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 21, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Strange timekeeping for the EB's today. Both #7's are running quite late-with the one in WA almost 6 1/2 hours late, while the two #8's are on time.


Yeah. #7 will be sitting at SPUD for over 3 hours! Wonder if they are letting the passengers roam into the building?




-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## NorthShore (Oct 22, 2014)

Aboard the #8 just leaving LaCrosse. We needed the extra 3 hours in the schedule at St. Paul to catch up a bit and still left an hour late after a fifteen minute station stop. Were still an hour down. Then sat outside the station waiting n freight.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 23, 2014)

#8 in MN seems to have fallen into a dark hole, now about 4 hours behind. I was really hoping things would improve at least modestly so the EB's would be a little more consistent, but today's timekeeping appears to be back to big delays. Hopefully this one is a "one off".

:-(

Update:

#8 in MN is now 6 hours late and #7 in WA is now 7 hours late--not good runs for either train and everything appears to be back to the miserable status quo of last summer. Rats!


----------



## NorthShore (Oct 23, 2014)

Arrived in Chicago at 7:26 last night, only an hour late due to the CP construction schedule which offered a later expected arrival. Alas, not late enough for Dinty Moore.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 24, 2014)

Here I was all excited for my #8 to be on time, untill just before Staples, and boom, fell behind over 3 hours late! LOL I am guessing freight issue in front of them.


----------



## willem (Oct 24, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> The increased dwell for #8 at MSP and the later schedule for points east is to accommodate an CP project. It started today (10/20) ends this Thursday (10/23). Your trip Friday will not be affected.


A station agent in Saint Paul said the new schedule will apply Monday through Thursday for four weeks.


----------



## NorthShore (Oct 24, 2014)

It should probably be made semi permanent, as it is a lot closer to accurate in actuality with all the delays.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 24, 2014)

On today's #8 in Montana and we are about 3 hours late--ALL due to freight interference according to the conductor--and we haven't even hit the tough stuff in ND.

Not looking good for us--rats,


----------



## montana mike (Oct 24, 2014)

montana mike said:


> On today's #8 in Montana and we are about 3 hours late--ALL due to freight interference according to the conductor--and we haven't even hit the tough stuff in ND.
> 
> Not looking good for us--rats,


Update an hour later. Stopped again--more freight-again!! Now approaching 4 hours late--unreal. ALL of the sidings we have passed have been jammed with freights--every one! The big new three track siding just east of Glasgow had three long freights in it waiting for us to go by--and we did at about 10 mph--ugh......


----------



## montana mike (Oct 24, 2014)

Another hour gone by--spent sitting the entire time as 5 freights went by in the opposite direction. Now running 4 1/2 hours late and the conductor is thinking by the time we roll into CHI tomorrow night we could be 6-7 hours late--likely even worse. What a piece of garbage today. We have stopped for no less than a dozen freights this afternoon and he says it's actually slower up ahead thru ND. Currently moving thru eastern MT at about 1/2 normal track speed.

Looks like my gamble to connect with the LSL tomorrow night will go down the tubes. Rats.......and I cannot afford to wait an entire extra day to catch the following night's LSL. The pax on the train are just as frustrated as I am. Lot's of people saying why take the train when it is so unreliable. Very light load on this EB. I can see why.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 24, 2014)

10 PM update on #8: We are stopped totally just outside of Stanley. Our crew ran out of time. So now we wait while Amtrak tries to taxi a relief crew out to us. Could be a while, since they have to come all the way from Minot and the conductor just called them for help!!! Running almost 5 hours behind now. Not looking good at all. I have not seen ANY improvement over my last trip this summer-which was a total disaster as well. BTW: In the dining car gone are all of the china and glasses and no linens whatsoever--paper everything. You should have seen the bags of trash they took off in Havre!!

Oh, well. I was hoping to see something better, sad to report what is happening.

:-(


----------



## acelafan (Oct 24, 2014)

It's no fun being late, that's for sure. But I'd rather be riding the Builder than hanging around the house (despite the cat being good company).

Try to enjoy it as best you can even though it's disrupting your plans. I love going to sleep on the train way out in the countryside.


----------



## PRae_Train (Oct 25, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Looks like my gamble to connect with the LSL tomorrow night will go down the tubes. Rats.......and I cannot afford to wait an entire extra day to catch the following night's LSL. The pax on the train are just as frustrated as I am. Lot's of people saying why take the train when it is so unreliable. Very light load on this EB. I can see why.


My entire first ride on the EB in late August was filled with this kind of anxiety. It really ruined the experience for me. Aside from a small note about the beauty of the Cascades, I don't remember anything about it except praying that I'd get a sleeper on 448 LSL and wondering how I would spend a day in Chicago if we missed it. As it turned out, we did get our connection just in time to hop over to the next track, but it was just too much overall.


----------



## acelafan (Oct 25, 2014)

montana mike said:


> 10 PM update on #8: We are stopped totally just outside of Stanley. Our crew ran out of time. So now we wait while Amtrak tries to taxi a relief crew out to us. Could be a while, since they have to come all the way from Minot and the conductor just called them for help!!! Running almost 5 hours behind now. Not looking good at all. I have not seen ANY improvement over my last trip this summer-which was a total disaster as well. BTW: In the dining car gone are all of the china and glasses and no linens whatsoever--paper everything. You should have seen the bags of trash they took off in Havre!!
> 
> Oh, well. I was hoping to see something better, sad to report what is happening.
> 
> :-(


It looks like schedule padding (and the detour if it's still in effect?) helped you. #8 of 10/23 "only" down 3.25 hours now. Assuming you get to CHI 4.5 hours late, that's 8:30 PM and LSL doesn't leave until 9:30PM. You might be okay.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 25, 2014)

Yup. Just left MSP, although now stopped while several freights go by. Looks like an arrival time in CHI perhaps 3+ hours late. Just enough time to grab a quick bite to eat before I get on the LSL

Yes--the Surrey Cutoff detour helped a lot. We stayed at track speed the entire time!!!


----------



## acelafan (Oct 25, 2014)

montana mike said:


> Yup. Just left MSP, although now stopped while several freights go by. Looks like an arrival time in CHI perhaps 3+ hours late. Just enough time to grab a quick bite to eat before I get on the LSL
> 
> Yes--the Surrey Cutoff detour helped a lot. We stayed at track speed the entire time!!!


Glad to hear - with no catastrophes down the line you should be fine. Fingers crossed!


----------



## montana mike (Oct 25, 2014)

Arrived 7 PM, so I made the LSL with time to grab a snack--whew!


----------



## NorthShore (Oct 26, 2014)

Wow,you beat my trip (a couple days earlier) by an entire 26 minutes!

And, here, I was hoping to get some stew out of the situation.


----------



## greatcats (Oct 26, 2014)

It appears that today's #8 was in fairly good shape and then something went down the tubes between Fargo and St. Cloud. Now 6+ hours late. Montana Mike was pretty lucky yesterday!


----------



## acelafan (Oct 26, 2014)

greatcats said:


> It appears that today's #8 was in fairly good shape and then something went down the tubes between Fargo and St. Cloud. Now 6+ hours late. Montana Mike was pretty lucky yesterday!


Yep, MM snuck through. The NY section of the Lake Shore Ltd he was on arrived early. The Boston section wasn't so lucky; 90 minutes or so late.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 27, 2014)

I have been traveling in the east the past couple days and just noticed #8 is now over 11 hours late today and #7 in WA isn't doing much better--what the heck happened yesterday and today? This is as bad or worse than last summer. I sure did luck out with a delay of "only" 3 hours on the 25th--whew!!!!


----------



## montana mike (Oct 28, 2014)

I see #7, still in Central MT is now over 16 hours late--Holy Cow!!!!! What a disaster these least couple days have been. Something must have happened besides just "freight congestion"?

:-(


----------



## greatcats (Oct 28, 2014)

Would somebody in the know please let us know what happened? Just wunnerful, as Lawrence Welk from North Dakota might say.


----------



## EB_OBS (Oct 28, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Would somebody in the know please let us know what happened? Just wunnerful, as Lawrence Welk from North Dakota might say.


Disabled freight train at Saaco, MT cost about three hours to an already four hours late #7.

Of course then the cumulative delays to freights and #7 resulted in multiple Hours of Service issues for the crews.


----------



## TraneMan (Oct 29, 2014)

Yikes. :-( I really do feel for the crew and people who are on this train.


----------



## NW cannonball (Oct 29, 2014)

TraneMan said:


> Yikes. :-( I really do feel for the crew and people who are on this train.


Indeed. And unlike the people on the coasts, or CHI, or middle Texas -- there is no alternative -- none -- at CHI like when ORD failed last May 12-13 -- I took the blue line and the Lincoln service and got to STL a day late. Coulda been worse. Out on the Hi-Line the options are few to none.

When the EB fails like this -- between Fargo and Spokane, or for those who expect NY or CHI service levels between MSP and SEA - wait a day or two -- or find a local General Aviation guru and pay $10,000 -- or maybe the one bus that might be failed also-- that's all the options there are out there in the cold North.

Between SPK and FAR it's the EB or nothing -- well, not nothing -- theres a few airports with   sky high fares, and there's US 2, which is 2-lanes and sometimes OK driving, but never OK in the frequent blizzards --

and who posted that cute line -- nothing to stop the wind between here and the North Pole except that one bob-ware fence -- and it'll be blown away in January.


----------



## montana mike (Oct 29, 2014)

17 hours late for #7 in WA today--wow. With the other #7 in MT catching up. It should be an interesting group of arrivals in SEA later today.

:-(


----------



## greatcats (Oct 31, 2014)

I see today's #7 is 4 hours late leaving Chicago and #5 was over 2 hrs late. Could it be that smooth running Chicago yard? Wunnerful. Montana Mike is on 7 , I believe.


----------



## fairviewroad (Oct 31, 2014)

Don't know if it's related, but the weather was pretty brutal in Chicago today. Lake Michigan decided to relocate onto Lake

Shore Drive. more than 700 flights canceled at O'Hare by 4 p.m. Etc, etc.


----------



## montana mike (Nov 1, 2014)

The 4 hour delay in the departure for #7 yesterday was due to extra time to put three private cars on the EB and to switch a bad ordered locomotive. This leg of my journey has been one screw up after another. First the big delay in departing CHI, then a "minor" 20 minute pit stop somewhere outside of MKE to do a quick repair of something--they never said, then we all wake up this AM to find out that the two forward sleeper's toilets do not work, now we have been sitting between Grand Forks and Fargo for almost an hour waiting for a very slow freight to pass us so we can enter Grand Forks. Now well over 6 hours late and counting. Plus the conductor says we can expect more "significant delays" in ND and MT due to very heavy freight traffic. Looks like I will not arrive at my station (WFH) until some time Sunday AM at best........oh, well at least the oatmeal for breakfast was OK this morning.


----------



## montana mike (Nov 1, 2014)

11 AM Update on #7 today in ND: After losing an hour behind a very slow freight into Grand Forks we caught up to the same freight train just west of Grand Forks and the Conductor has said to be prepared to lose at least another 30 minutes before we get to Rugby. NO place to get around him. All of the sidings are already full of stored cars and other freights. We are crawling along at 20 mph now just a mile or so behind him--arrrrgh. It would b so bad if he was going 50-60 mph, but this pace is just killing us. Even with the benefit of the extra hour gained when we switch to standard time it looks like a 7-8 hour delay at least into WFH, which means tomorrow AM, not tonight. It would have been nice to sleep in my own bed tonight!!


----------



## CHamilton (Nov 1, 2014)

Meanwhile, 8(30) arrived in CHI 12 minutes EARLY! How did *that* happen??


----------



## Derailed (Nov 1, 2014)

Because whenever a host RR can't run a train around a Christmas tree, Big A just adds more time to the already super-slow schedule, instead of addressing the issue with the host railroad. It's pathetic.


----------



## Phil S (Nov 1, 2014)

Looks like MM's #7 made up, an hour. Some dispatcher wasn't paying attention? My turn comes Monday. Don't really care when we get into PDX, but it'd be nice if it's still daylight. Packing lots of extra food and actually looking forward to some new daylight rail miles (if I can tell the difference in ND and MT


----------



## montana mike (Nov 1, 2014)

Well, we lost that hour and then some (now just under NINE hours late now). Arrrgh. No toilets, nine hours late, just one heck of a ride......

We sat just outside of Williston and watched as a Z-train and a lonnnnng grain train passed us by. Clearly, when we lost our slot (by starting out 4 hours late) #8 is invisible to BNSF now. Looking like arrival in WFH around 6 AM now. Oh, well, it's 2 hours better than my last run on the EB.......


----------



## Bus Nut (Nov 1, 2014)

montana mike, that just sounds grueling. No way can I take riding in a train at 20mph. This is why I hate excursion trains, btw. (So funny, my family assumes I'll love them, because choo-choo's. They don't get that I like to ride _fast_. And I don't like stopping all the time and traveling in circles.)

It seems like EB is just going to get worse before it gets better. One bright spot (maybe?) is that Saudi Arabia is overproducing oil to demand so demand for North Dakota oil may soften somewhat. This should reduce those freight volumes. Might be a year off and there's no telling if SA will switch course this winter and start choking down supply.


----------



## D.P. Roberts (Nov 2, 2014)

What are the odds that Amtrak reestablishes west coast connections to the EB any time soon?

Ideally, I'd like to plan a trip from somewhere out west to Montana next summer, and Amtrak currently says "you can't get there from here."

For a national rail network, that's pretty sad.


----------



## montana mike (Nov 2, 2014)

Sunday AM Update: I arrived in WFH around 6:15 AM (scheduled arrived was 10:26 PM Saturday--and this arrival was helped by our fall back hour too)!!! Soooo glad to get off the train. A ton of snow at Marias Pass last night. First big snow of the season for them. So, despite all of BNSF's and Amtrak's efforts to make things better, the timekeeping on this EB at least was just as miserable as the summer runs.

A couple of important points to note from my trip:

1. Between Minot and Stanley BNSF has laid double track for about 75% of that segment. Of which perhaps 50% of the new track was actually usable at this time, with the rest hopefully coming on line before the snow flies. Between Stanley and Williston a lot of preliminary track bed work, perhaps 50% of that segment, but no actual new track that I could see. It appears they are doing a lot of bed work and will lay track next year. What will take longer are several bridges that will need to be built/completed. Despite the additional trackage in eastern MT completed this year (about 40 miles worth and a couple new longer sidings), our EB was pulled aside several times and lost 3 hours in the stretch from eastern ND thru central MT last night and early this AM. I lost this amount of time going eastbound in this same area last week as well.

2. Sadly, the equipment is really, really showing its age. The toilet failures are the tip of the proverbial iceberg. During one of our numerous delays I had an opportunity to speak with a conductor and several attendants, who all independently said that BOTH this crazy schedule (or lack thereof) and the equipment failures are taking a severe toll on Amtrak and her people. I saw this firsthand in Minot when two maintenance people and three train folks tried their best to fix the broken toilets in both of the sleepers (the third sleeper-which had lost all of its water early on the trip was "fixed" by hammering the intake valve shut with a really big sledge). They toiled for 20 minutes, but with no success, mainly because the parts needed for repairs are not carried on board or at ANY of the service spots along the way. The MOT maintenance guy said Amtrak may either have to fly the needed parts out to SEA (if they can't "borrow" the parts from another car) to try to fix the toilets there, or send the two sleepers without working toilets back to CHI for final repair. He said he was betting on the second option. I pity the poor folks who get those cars if they can't fix them in SEA. None of the heat regulation devices appeared to work well on my EB. I went from car to car and temps varied hugely--and when I asked the attendants they said the adjustments just don't work well on many of their cars anymore. I know on my sleeper it was that way as well--one temp and that was it, no room adjustments worked in any of the rooms. I could list a litany of other "minor" issues (like our shower being on and really hot, or nothing else at all), but the bottom-line is the maintenance is not getting done. One attendant showed me copies of maintenance requests he had submitted for his car (it was long) and the CHI yard folks just checked things off as being done or no problem found. In each instance the problem was still very evident in his car.

The crews are remarkable people, who are putting their heart and souls into their jobs--I saw NO one just "phoning it in" on my EB run, but they are running out of reserves and fast. The huge swing in hours has really taken its toll on both morale and home life as well. Two conductors said they had absolutely no idea from day to day what their real schedule will be.

I also noted the train was very sparsely filled. Partly due to the time of the year, but as the crew also said, people now tell them that they just cannot count on the Empire Builders anymore. I poor fellow got on board in Browning (where there is NO indoor waiting area) early this AM. He was drenched. He had been waiting outside in the rain and snow for hours, having first showed up at the platform when Amtrak informed him to expect a 2 hour delay and he finally hopped on board 6 hours later!

Just my two cents worth. Happiness was having a hot shower and a working bathroom this morning!


----------



## neroden (Nov 2, 2014)

Sounds like maintenance needs to be moved out of Chicago. You usually can't fix a dishonest site culture like that, you have to toss everyone and start fresh. I don't know how hard it will be under union contracts to do that.


----------



## PaulM (Nov 2, 2014)

montana mike said:


> We sat just outside of Williston and watched as a Z-train and a lonnnnng grain train passed us by. Clearly, when we lost our slot (by starting out 4 hours late) #8 is invisible to BNSF now.


It's amazing that these mythical "slots" only seem to exist when the train starts out late.


----------



## montana mike (Nov 3, 2014)

Perhaps not actual hard "slots" per se, but I did note during my last two trips, and this was partly confirmed by my BNSF contacts, that BNSF occasionally runs a number of their freights in "packs", ie. perhaps 3 trains running almost together in the same direction. I saw this during my just completed trip, as we sat on sidings and watched an energy train, then just a couple minutes behind a grain train, then an intermodal or mixed freight immediately behind that train. Our EB then went in between a couple of these groupings, and of course was bogged down by the fact that they were usually going 50-60 mph, thus we continued to lose time over hundreds of miles. We would then stop at an Amtrak station and a couple times waited for another group of these trains to pass on by. This combo occurred at least 4 times that I noticed on my last trip (can't say for sure what happened when I was asleep though).

I asked what happened when two of these groups met traveling in different directions and they said, first most of these groupings head westbound from ND and MT. Any groups heading east do not encounter traffic going the other way from MOT all the way to Fargo, where at that point they are sent onto different BNSF segments. As far as west bound, they pointed out that in at least two spots now in MT (and soon in ND) BNSF has constructed "super-sidings" that consist of three separate tracks off the main line where the pack can pull off to let trains moving in the opposite direction go by. I did see this once myself, and it was full of one of those packs (energy, ag and intermodal), just as they said. It was interesting to observe.


----------



## PaulM (Nov 3, 2014)

So then a "slot" is a temporary spot in between packs of slow moving freights.

Several times I've asked whether slots actually exist when posters had claimed their train had lost is slot. I never got an answer.


----------



## montana mike (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, perhaps at least on the Hi-Line in the congested area. It think that may be why the very few EB's that do arrive in CHI or SEA/PDX close to on time are able to do so-by timing the move thru this zone to coincide with how BNSF loads and schedules its trains thru this specific sector and they are fortunate on that day to also not have any or many BNSF trains out of sequence either. Once the timing is off, like we were at starting 4 hours late this weekend or if BNSF has a SNAFU on one or more of it's trains, then the EB gets "bounced around" as it and any BNSF trains who are operating outside their normal schedules are worked thru the heavy congestion zones. Those big very high priority freights are moved and scheduled to be in and out of the various loading areas, sidings, super sidings and the east and west flowing sectors on a fairly rigid schedule themselves, that's the only way BNSF is able to keep things moving for their expedited needs. Throw in a very late EB in the mix or a BNSF freight that has had timekeeping issues when they enter the challenging territory in ND and MT and you experience exactly what happened to us. Four hours becomes 9 hours pretty darn quick as the out of sequence trains try to cope with those very high priority trains that are on schedule.


----------



## EB_OBS (Nov 4, 2014)

A freight railroad has daily and weekly regularly scheduled departures just like Amtrak does for passengers.

It's really no different, they just have a lot more departures.

If Amtrak gets outside of it's regular run time slot, well, then there is no slot. It's running amongst traffic and with dispatchers not accustomed to running with Amtrak.


----------



## yarrow (Nov 4, 2014)

wife and i took the eb spk-sea yesterday. 6 hours late out of spk(a good part of which was a dol crew just out of sandpoint. my understanding is that they drove a new crew up from spk but the van driver had trouble finding the train) and a bit over 7 hours late into sea. nice trip but i had my first experience with the dinty moore over rice. i am not particular about food but neither i nor anyone in the vicinity who had a plate slung their way was too impressed with our emergency rations.


----------



## zephyr17 (Nov 4, 2014)

yarrow said:


> wife and i took the eb spk-sea yesterday. 6 hours late out of spk(a good part of which was a dol crew just out of sandpoint. my understanding is that they drove a new crew up from spk but the van driver had trouble finding the train) and a bit over 7 hours late into sea. nice trip but i had my first experience with the dinty moore over rice. i am not particular about food but neither i nor anyone in the vicinity who had a plate slung their way was too impressed with our emergency rations.


You are now officially a true Amtrak LD veteran.


----------



## neroden (Nov 4, 2014)

EB_OBS said:


> A freight railroad has daily and weekly regularly scheduled departures just like Amtrak does for passengers.


Actually, they kind of don't. They do in Europe and Russia, but not in the US. Yes, even in the US the freight train departures are "scheduled", but in the US it's pretty well documented that they are super super sloppy with their scheduling -- 15 minutes late starting, several hours late starting, the attitude seems to be "whatever". CN even made this claim outright in their STB filings, saying that their advertisement to freight shippers of a "scheduled" railroad didn't mean scheduled down to the *minute*, just down to the nearest three or four hours.
This is arguably the major source of inability to keep time on the US "freight" railroads. They've gotten completely out of the habit of running their freight trains to the minute. I'm not quite sure when this happened, but it was probably sometime in the era when slow bulk commodities were the only major source of income.


----------



## Grayewolf (Nov 4, 2014)

neroden said:


> This is arguably the major source of inability to keep time on the US "freight" railroads. They've gotten completely out of the habit of running their freight trains to the minute. I'm not quite sure when this happened, but it was probably sometime in the era when slow bulk commodities were the only major source of income.


Or even back when they ran passenger trains. More incentive to have an actual schedule. Now that they don't do passengers because Amtrak does where's the incentive to have actual schedules?


----------



## neroden (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayewolf said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > This is arguably the major source of inability to keep time on the US "freight" railroads. They've gotten completely out of the habit of running their freight trains to the minute. I'm not quite sure when this happened, but it was probably sometime in the era when slow bulk commodities were the only major source of income.
> ...


Well, apart from Amtrak and the commuter services, both the refrigerated-products clients and the "fast parcel" intermodal clients (UPS/FedEx/etc) care, but the mentality of the Class Is still doesn't seem to be focused on those business lines. Due to the Hi-Line delays, BNSF just lost a major refrigerated-service client and has been bleeding intermodal business.

I can sort of understand it, since the bread-and-butter of many of these lines is still coal. (But the coal business is going to die in the next few years, so they should actually be sidelining coal in favor of growing business lines.)


----------



## George K (Nov 4, 2014)

neroden said:


> Due to the Hi-Line delays, BNSF just lost a major refrigerated-service client and has been bleeding intermodal business.


That's very interesting. "Money talks, and....."

Perhaps _that's_ why BNSF is so eager to build new right-of-way. Nothing to do with Amtrak.


----------



## Grayewolf (Nov 4, 2014)

neroden said:


> Well, apart from Amtrak and the commuter services, both the refrigerated-products clients and the "fast parcel" intermodal clients (UPS/FedEx/etc) care, but the mentality of the Class Is still doesn't seem to be focused on those business lines. Due to the Hi-Line delays, BNSF just lost a major refrigerated-service client and has been bleeding intermodal business.
> 
> I can sort of understand it, since the bread-and-butter of many of these lines is still coal. (But the coal business is going to die in the next few years, so they should actually be sidelining coal in favor of growing business lines.)


Ah, this one? http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/intermodal-shipping/cold-train-ends-intermodal-service-citing-poor-bnsf-performance_20140807.html


----------



## MikefromCrete (Nov 4, 2014)

George K said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Due to the Hi-Line delays, BNSF just lost a major refrigerated-service client and has been bleeding intermodal business.
> ...


Of course, Amtrak adds nothing to the bottom lines of the Class I's.


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 11, 2014)

When an Empire Builder is running very, very late, 4 hours or more, what happens at the smaller-size stations along the route?

Do they open at their normal hours and then stay open until the train really does get there? Or do they close at some point and kick everyone outside to continue waiting for the extremely late train?


----------



## D.P. Roberts (Nov 12, 2014)

Steve Manfred said:


> When an Empire Builder is running very, very late, 4 hours or more, what happens at the smaller-size stations along the route?
> 
> Do they open at their normal hours and then stay open until the train really does get there? Or do they close at some point and kick everyone outside to continue waiting for the extremely late train?


For one thing, many of the staffed stations have waiting rooms that are basically open 24/7, they're just not staffed unless a train is arriving shortly.

From my experience, though, the staff - Amtrak, rental car agencies, etc. - are usually pretty well informed about the train's status, and are open for a "window" around the train's actual arrival, rather than its scheduled arrival.


----------



## neroden (Nov 12, 2014)

Grayewolf said:


> Ah, this one? http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/intermodal-shipping/cold-train-ends-intermodal-service-citing-poor-bnsf-performance_20140807.html


That's the one.


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 12, 2014)

Thanks, D.P.


----------



## Ryan (Nov 12, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> Of course, Amtrak adds nothing to the bottom lines of the Class I's.


Of course they do. If it wasn't for the creation of Amtrak, they'd still be bleeding money running passenger service.

OK, technically that's not "adding to the bottom line", but "preventing subtraction from the bottom line". Same difference.


----------



## George K (Nov 12, 2014)

RyanS said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, Amtrak adds nothing to the bottom lines of the Class I's.
> ...


As far as that goes, Ryan, you're right.

But...

If Class 1s saw their bottom line running into the red, or not increasing as much as they wished, do you think that they would continue passenger service?

Without outside (government) pressure to do so, of course they wouldn't. They'd drop it faster than a Chicago Cubs outfielder.

If there's no money in it, they would get rid of it. Follow the Benjamins,


----------



## Ryan (Nov 12, 2014)

Yes, but that's the point. There was a government mandate to provide passenger service - the only way they were able to get rid of passenger service was by turning it over to Amtrak.

If it wasn't for the creation of Amtrak, they would have been forced to continue operating passenger service and losing money.


----------



## George K (Nov 12, 2014)

Right.

And without a government mandate, most of passenger service, particularly long-distance, would have gone away.


----------



## neroden (Nov 13, 2014)

George K said:


> Right.
> 
> And without a government mandate, most of passenger service, particularly long-distance, would have gone away.


And without the government mandate for passenger service, most of the railroads would never have been given charters or permission to construct their lines in the first place -- and they certainly wouldn't have gotten land grants or eminent domain powers.

*sigh* The history goes back a long way here. The railroads need the government, and they need popular support -- so they need to accept the requirements which the government, and the people, place on them. Such as passenger service.


----------



## William W. (Nov 13, 2014)

Just received a call from Amtrak, informing me that my connect with the CS at PDX is no longer valid, and I therefore will have to stay in a hotel (at my own expense) and catch the next day's train.

It makes sense, obviously, given the EB's OT performance. I'm glad that I booked a refundable hotel reservation in LA, haha.


----------



## D.P. Roberts (Nov 13, 2014)

William W. said:


> Just received a call from Amtrak, informing me that my connect with the CS at PDX is no longer valid, and I therefore will have to stay in a hotel (at my own expense) and catch the next day's train.
> 
> It makes sense, obviously, given the EB's OT performance. I'm glad that I booked a refundable hotel reservation in LA, haha.


Wait a minute - haven't the EB's connections to the CS been broken since last year?


----------



## William W. (Nov 13, 2014)

I made the reservation a few months ago, when the schedule had reverted back to the normal times. Under that schedule, the connection at PDX is valid. Under the modified schedule, it is not.


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 14, 2014)

I've got a trip just like this booked for early February. When will I get the dreaded call?

I wonder if I should change my plans now. Another way I could do it is head east to Milwaukee or Chicago, spend a night there, then get to L.A. (my ultimate destination) on the Southwest Chief. I'm already doing the reverse for my return trip.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 14, 2014)

If you want to experience different routes ( the SWC is a good route)consider doing Chicago to Sacramento, Davis or Emeryville on the Zephyr ( you have to spend the night on your dime to make the connection to the Coast Starlight to LAX), then the CS to LAX.

You could also ride the Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd.from CHI or LAX via San Antonio, 3 nights on the Train ( only runs 3 days a week) for more Train time, but the Zephyr and Starlight have the best scenery!


----------



## benale (Nov 14, 2014)

We have a trip planned from Toledo to San Luis Obispo in June. We wanted to take the EB for extra train time. I made the reservation in August when the EB-CS connection was allowable, but their timekeeping was hardly ideal and we didn't want to be downgraded to coach on the next days CS if no sleeper space was available. After spending 30 minutes on the phone with an AGR agent(we're using points. Otherwise we could never afford it)she said we could overnight on our own dime in Portland. If somebody wanted to do that same routing would they allow an overnight in Portland?. The itinerary is no longer available,so I doubt you could book that anymore.

We're also returning taking another long route..The CS to The Texas Eagle and Lake Shore Limited. Had to get the best bang for the buck using points.


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 14, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> If you want to experience different routes ( the SWC is a good route)consider doing Chicago to Sacramento, Davis or Emeryville on the Zephyr ( you have to spend the night on your dime to make the connection to the Coast Starlight to LAX), then the CS to LAX.
> 
> You could also ride the Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd.from CHI or LAX via San Antonio, 3 nights on the Train ( only runs 3 days a week) for more Train time, but the Zephyr and Starlight have the best scenery!


The plan is to leave from Red Wing, MN on the Empire Builder, connect to the Coast Starlight, and get to Los Angeles. About a 72-hour trip, all paid for as a two-zone AGR. For the return trip (which I'm paying for with the voucher I've got after I had to cancel last year's Empire Builder trip) I'm on the Southwest Chief (which I've rode before) to Chicago, then I head up to Milwaukee on one of the commuter trains, spend a night in downtown Milwaukee on my own dime, then get back to Red Wing on the next day's Empire Builder. I have roomettes the whole way except the last bit from Milwaukee to Red Wing.

I do have a day built into the schedule in case of a missed connection in Portland. I just wish they'd honor the guaranteed connection they said they'd have when I booked it. (and they haven't told me personally yet that they won't)


----------



## benale (Nov 14, 2014)

Since you already booked your itinerary using the EB-CS connection, Amtrak will call you and offer you the option of spending the night in Portland on your dime and put you on the next days CS. If you don't want to wait for their call, call them and explain your situation. You should still be able to take the EB.


----------



## William W. (Nov 14, 2014)

If by some miracle the EB is on time, and I can make the connection, would Amtrak let me? The deciding factor would obviously be whether there was still sleeping space.


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 14, 2014)

benale said:


> Since you already booked your itinerary using the EB-CS connection, Amtrak will call you and offer you the option of spending the night in Portland on your dime and put you on the next days CS. If you don't want to wait for their call, call them and explain your situation. You should still be able to take the EB.


I'd like to wait for their call, as it's still a ways off and maybe things will improve by then and the connection will still be valid.

(and maybe pigs will fly too)

The trouble is my roomette. If they don't call me for a while yet, and by the time they do, the roomettes on the Coast Starlight have sold out, what happens then? I'm relegated to coach for that leg?


----------



## benale (Nov 14, 2014)

That is why I suggested calling Amtrak. The sooner you get in touch with them, the better chance of getting a roomette.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 14, 2014)

I wouldn't wait Steve! You don't have to cancel or change your rez when you call but the odds are that the connection won't be made in PDX.

You can either spend the night in PDX on your dime ( check out hotel deals for PDX) and have a guaranteed next day room, or change routes!

I wouldn't wait based on experience and what's happening on the Hi- Line this year plus its Winter and looks like its gonna be a bad one up North!!


----------



## Steve Manfred (Nov 15, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice. I've decided to keep waiting for now after looking through the reservations system. I checked to see how often the roomettes on the Coast Starlight are total sellouts, since that's the only issue I have with waiting is the chance the one I'll need will be gone by the time I'm officially told the bad news. I discovered that unlike a lot of other LD trains, the Starlight rarely runs out of roomettes. Between now and the date I'll need, I found only three roomette sellouts, all around Thanksgiving. If I wanted one for today's or tomorrow's train, I could have it. And the date I'd maybe need is just a non-holiday, Tuesday Feb. 10th. Still, I'll keep an eye on it.


----------



## NW cannonball (Nov 15, 2014)

Steve Manfred said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I've decided to keep waiting for now after looking through the reservations system. I checked to see how often the roomettes on the Coast Starlight are total sellouts, since that's the only issue I have with waiting is the chance the one I'll need will be gone by the time I'm officially told the bad news. I discovered that unlike a lot of other LD trains, the Starlight rarely runs out of roomettes. Between now and the date I'll need, I found only three roomette sellouts, all around Thanksgiving. If I wanted one for today's or tomorrow's train, I could have it. And the date I'd maybe need is just a non-holiday, Tuesday Feb. 10th. Still, I'll keep an eye on it.


Sounds like a good plan A.


----------



## TraneMan (Nov 15, 2014)

#8 isn't doing too well. :-( Keeps on losing time, and a co-worker is taking her first train trip to CHI. I warned her about delays... Didn't think it would be this bad. over 6 hours late. wonder what it been hitting along the way.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------

