# Revisiting Boston-Florida service/NEC to FL via Charlotte



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 25, 2015)

It's great having a new forum to bounce off ideas for new or expanded service.

Since the old thread is buried several months ago, I would like to revisit it. Those of you who can find the old post(s) feel free to link.

I know that a huge majority of train travel is short distance but I think there is a market for LD service. I have certainly used Amtrak LD service to see other parts of the country. I imagine quite a few of you have as well. When I have proposed LD expansion, I for the most part have said expanding routes or connecting routes that Amtrak already uses or has previously. Once in a while I mention a route I am not sure of but those usually are long shots to me. Usually when I say why not expand route X to city Y, I am usually met with "it will add delays to a route". Of course you look at it from both sides but I still think more connections is a positive. I still would love to one day see a transcontinental route although the CHI transfer point seems to work fine for the most part (although gridlock is clearly an issue that hopefully the project in CHI will lessen).

One of my expansion ideas way back when I first started at Amtrak Unlimited was an extension of a Florida train north from NYP to BOS. Boston is currently served by one LD train but I believe they currently have to transfer at Albany to go to CHI. New Haven is the 10th largest Amtrak market and currently has no LD train service at all. Providence is also high on the list and they have no LD train service. They do have several trains to NYP which has many LD trains but could we see a market for an LD train to Connecticut?

Top Amtrak markets: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1246041980246

I remember hearing that slots from NYP to BOS are limited and if expanded Amtrak will surely want to add more profitable Acela service. So the only way a BOS to Florida service will happen is to combine either the Silver Meteor or Silver Star with a route that currently serves NYP to BOS.

Right now we have:
Star: Depart NYP 11:00am, Arrive NYP 6:50pm
Meteor: Depart NYP 3:15pm, Arrive NYP 11:00am

The Meteor certainly is the better choice to expand north as a Star would have to leave BOS really early in the morning and not get back until late at night.

So we'd have to find a BOS-NYP train that arrives in NYP before 2pm and leaves NYP around noon. I am going to rule out any Acelas (no way I am going to mess with them) so only NER's are considered.

Proposal: Merge 93/83/161 to the Meteor going south. Merge 86/164 to the Meteor going north.

South: 161 terminates in WAS. 93 terminates in Richmond (Staples Mill Road) which is served by the Meteor. 83 terminates in Newport News so you would lose that service on Fridays.

North: 86/164 terminate in Richmond.

Unless you add the Va stops between WAS and RVR onto the Meteor, those markets would lose a train. The 95 would serve those passengers as well as the BOS to Newport News on Fridays. A compromise could also be made to run 93/83 and 86/164 as Virginia to NYP trains. Is there a large market for BOS to Virginia travel that cannot be satisfied by the 95/99? Maybe 95 could be moved back an hour or two if it's too early (leaves BOS at 6:10am). I'm sure there's a reason for the 83 to Newport News on Friday at that time, could that be moved to another train (expand 133 which is only a Friday train between NYP and WAS to Newport News to at least give NYP-Newport News)?

Certainly there will be some creative juggling necessary but I feel the New England to Florida direct service is something to strive for.


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## neroden (Nov 25, 2015)

Honestly, it should be OK for Boston-Florida passengers to transfer at NYP.

The problem is that right now NYP absolutely stinks to transfer at. Very unpleasant environment compared to nearly any other station nationwide.

So arguably that should be addressed as a priority.


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## afigg (Nov 25, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Boston is currently served by one LD train but I believe they currently have to transfer at Albany to go to CHI.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


The transfer at Albany for the Lake Shore Limited for BOS & SPG passengers is temporary. Once the Albany track reconfiguration and upgrade work is done, the Boston section will be split off and run to/from BOS.

The slots between NYP and BOS are not just limited, they are _very_ limited. Amtrak can only run 39 trains a day total over the Shore Line East route which means there are only 19 trains each way between NYP <-> BOS on weekdays. If Amtrak could run 25 weekday NYP<->BOS trains, they could fill a lot of those additional seats.

As for schedule reliability, that is a big deal northbound. If a Regional is combined with the Meteor, what happens when the Meteor is 3, 4, 6 hours late because it got stuck in Florida or in grade crossing collision in the Carolinas? Then there is also the issue of equipment turnaround and schedule time. An extension to BOS would add 4+ hours each way to the Meteor trip. Even if Boston were to provide full servicing for the Meteor, the extension to BOS would cut into schedule recovery time when the Meteor is _really_ late.

As Neroden points out, the transfers in NYP are not easy. But I don't see how that ever truly gets fixed, although an expanded West End Concourse and Moynihan station improvements should help.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 25, 2015)

I see one additional problem with it that I'm surprised no one else caught the Silvers going north are drop off only, and pick up only going south. That way people doing shorts NYP-BAL aren't taking seats away from longs NYP-SAV. So somehow there would have to be a block on local traffic. And that wouldn't bode well for an expansion. Plus the discharge only helps late trains make up some time and on time trains arrive major early. I took the Meteor once and arrived about an hour early into Penn


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 25, 2015)

In theory, BOS/New England passengers should also be able to connect to/from NER to the Silver Meteor at any common point (PHL, BAL, WAS, even RVR). Maybe Amtrak could advertise those connections as opposed to the NYP connection.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 25, 2015)

afigg said:


> The slots between NYP and BOS are not just limited, they are _very_ limited. Amtrak can only run 39 trains a day total over the Shore Line East route which means there are only 19 trains each way between NYP <-> BOS on weekdays. If Amtrak could run 25 weekday NYP<->BOS trains, they could fill a lot of those additional seats.
> 
> As for schedule reliability, that is a big deal northbound. If a Regional is combined with the Meteor, what happens when the Meteor is 3, 4, 6 hours late because it got stuck in Florida or in grade crossing collision in the Carolinas? Then there is also the issue of equipment turnaround and schedule time. An extension to BOS would add 4+ hours each way to the Meteor trip. Even if Boston were to provide full servicing for the Meteor, the extension to BOS would cut into schedule recovery time when the Meteor is _really_ late.
> 
> As Neroden points out, the transfers in NYP are not easy. But I don't see how that ever truly gets fixed, although an expanded West End Concourse and Moynihan station improvements should help.


I think a lot of areas would love 19 trains each way.

Would terminating 93/83/161 and 86/164 at NYP be too big a loss? It would seem like a decent compromise and you get the slot(s) back for Florida.


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## Anderson (Nov 25, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> I see one additional problem with it that I'm surprised no one else caught the Silvers going north are drop off only, and pick up only going south. That way people doing shorts NYP-BAL aren't taking seats away from longs NYP-SAV. So somehow there would have to be a block on local traffic. And that wouldn't bode well for an expansion. Plus the discharge only helps late trains make up some time and on time trains arrive major early. I took the Meteor once and arrived about an hour early into Penn


This has been a bugaboo of mine for a _long_ time. Basically, I've long held that Amtrak should allow space to be sold on the daily LD trains, at least to/from WAS, _both ways, _but under space controls in all cases (e.g. sell no more than 50-60 seats north of WAS) _and_ with an alert notice northbound about possible delays given that the trains originate almost 24 hours to the south.

I highlight WAS because you could generously schedule the notional departure time (e.g. theoretically only allow for 5 minutes at WAS so that if the train _is_ running early you don't block up the station for too long) and dump all the padding presently found in the published timetable RVR-ALX-WAS(a)-WAS(d) into WAS(d)-BAL. I know Amtrak sells a lot of space between WAS and points south on all of those trains, so allowing restricted (and high-bucket-locked) sales NYP-WAS wouldn't hurt (they'd need to better manage prices on that leg, but I can definitely see passengers shelling out for the Meteor NYP-WAS so they can either crash or have a sit-down dinner; the same goes for the Star and Crescent, albeit without the dinner point (lunch on the Star was always a winner). Of particular note is that a canny passenger can do so _in effect_ right now by "over-booking" to ALX and just hopping off early...but Amtrak shoots themselves in the foot with this since doing so can turn around and block out a WAS-ORL passenger.


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## Hal (Nov 25, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > The slots between NYP and BOS are not just limited, they are _very_ limited. Amtrak can only run 39 trains a day total over the Shore Line East route which means there are only 19 trains each way between NYP <-> BOS on weekdays. If Amtrak could run 25 weekday NYP<->BOS trains, they could fill a lot of those additional seats.
> ...


You are out of your flipping mind.


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## jis (Nov 25, 2015)

I really don't think there is much to be gained by eating up slots sending a whole Florida train to Boston. At most a car or two that are transferred to/from a Boston Regional at Washington should suffice if one wants to go that far, and just leave it at that.


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## jebr (Nov 25, 2015)

Or, you know, just have people transfer in New York or Washington DC or somewhere in between.

But there I go, using that "t" word again. h34r:


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## Anderson (Nov 26, 2015)

jebr said:


> Or, you know, just have people transfer in New York or Washington DC or somewhere in between.
> 
> But there I go, using that "t" word again. h34r:


Well, you've got two issues:

(1) There's the "loss of traffic" argument (that the mere presence of a transfer costs traffic) though I suspect this is less of an issue in the NEC.

(2) There's also a question of classes of service (e.g. getting stuck in Regional Coach for 4 hours on top of the transfer...which is an annoying downgrade next to a meals-included sleeper).

I think running a through sleeper or two is probably your best bet here, absent an Inland Route routing for one of the trains (probably the Meteor).


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## BrianPR3 (Nov 26, 2015)

would tag trains work if say long distances from fla were cut back to washington?


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## Palmetto (Nov 26, 2015)

What are tag trains?


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## capltd29 (Nov 26, 2015)

I think that this would probably be more trouble than it would be worth. The NEC has so much service and so many ways to transfer. Transferring and layovers on trains are also different than for air travel. I personally have never been discouraged from taking a trip based on whether or not there was a transfer involved. I am sure there are those people out there, but I think it is overstated on this forum. I think that passengers would be more discouraged by the drop in reliability of having to run a northbound train an extra 3+ hours and in 92's case, getting into Boston after 10pm if it is ON TIME. Then having to turn the train around for it to depart between 6 and 7 am the next day.

Granted, you could change the schedule, but then you are losing some of the positive things that are in the intra-Florida schedules currently (leaving Jax around 7am, into MIA around 6pm). And for what reason? So people don't have to find another train on the busiest railroad in north america?


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## neroden (Nov 26, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> In theory, BOS/New England passengers should also be able to connect to/from NER to the Silver Meteor at any common point (PHL, BAL, WAS, even RVR). Maybe Amtrak could advertise those connections as opposed to the NYP connection.


That's an interesting and important point. If Amtrak promoted transfers from Boston to the Silver Service at Philadelphia rather than NYP (perhaps by making this the default when the website builds connections) it would vastly improve the transfer environment. Puts more people on Regionals in the congested NYP-PHL segment, unfortunately.


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## neroden (Nov 26, 2015)

Anderson said:


> This has been a bugaboo of mine for a _long_ time. Basically, I've long held that Amtrak should allow space to be sold on the daily LD trains, at least to/from WAS, _both ways, _but under space controls in all cases (e.g. sell no more than 50-60 seats north of WAS) _and_ with an alert notice northbound about possible delays given that the trains originate almost 24 hours to the south.


OK. Let's suppose, first of all, that Amtrak replaces ARROW with a modern system written in a modern high-level programming language, rather than mainframe assembly language.
I realize this will take years. It's worth the money, though.

Anyway, you could then program the reservations system in a very intelligent way. Every time a seat is booked from WAS-(points south), it could open up a booking from WAS-(points north) the next day. Similarly, every time a TRE-(points south of WAS) seat is booked, it could open up a booking for a seat from TRE to points north.

To avoid people gaming the system, if a WAS-south seat is cancelled, the next one booked would not open up a seat from WAS-north; it would add up the total number of seats booked from WAS south to determine how many seats to open from WAS north.

To further avoid people gaming the system, if there were a whole bunch of seats from WAS-south booked by one person all at once, the system should release the WAS-north seats slowly, a few per day.

You could then write "limited seats available" on the timetable rather than "pickup only" or "dropoff only".

This would be even easier to program with a reserved-seat system; for each seat, bookings from WAS-NYP would only be opened after a booking which goes south of WAS is reserved.

But you simply can't program that with ARROW. So. Finish that IT project...


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 27, 2015)

capltd29 said:


> I think that this would probably be more trouble than it would be worth. The NEC has so much service and so many ways to transfer. Transferring and layovers on trains are also different than for air travel. I personally have never been discouraged from taking a trip based on whether or not there was a transfer involved. I am sure there are those people out there, but I think it is overstated on this forum. I think that passengers would be more discouraged by the drop in reliability of having to run a northbound train an extra 3+ hours and in 92's case, getting into Boston after 10pm if it is ON TIME. Then having to turn the train around for it to depart between 6 and 7 am the next day.
> 
> Granted, you could change the schedule, but then you are losing some of the positive things that are in the intra-Florida schedules currently (leaving Jax around 7am, into MIA around 6pm). And for what reason? So people don't have to find another train on the busiest railroad in north america?


I only proposed extending the Silver Meteor, not the Silver Star. I knew the Star would arrive in BOS too late and leave BOS too early. So we're looking around 3:30pm into BOS and leaving BOS around 10:30am.

OTP is a concern but it's already a concern for most if not all LD trains. I am basically asking to run a train an extra 4.5 hours when it currently runs 27 hours and the extra 4.5 hours does not have the freight train interference that the train south of WAS does. If BOS-NYP passengers are concerned about OTP, they can take one of the other 18 Acela/NER trains between the cities. I mean do they really lose much if they have one fewer train? I can tell you this, if Amtrak said to me we can give the Keystone route a train to Chicago but we have to take away one existing HAR-NYP train, I'd give it up in a second.

And if Amtrak really is concerned about OTP they would truncate BOS trains at WAS since running the train south of WAS is already going into CSX territory. BOS to MIA is 1620 miles (231 to NYP, 1389 from NYP to MIA). A train from BOS to RVR is 566 miles (457 to WAS and 109 from WAS to RVR), about 1/3 of the trip down to MIA already.



jebr said:


> Or, you know, just have people transfer in New York or Washington DC or somewhere in between.
> 
> But there I go, using that "t" word again. h34r:


Ironically when the LD train is on time, the transfer probably is reasonable. But if we're talking about late trains the transfer becomes a horrible experience having to wait in line to change tickets. I ought to know, it just happened this past August. And there's a whole thread about transfer nightmares in CHI. You think late trains are the reason to force the transfer, I think late trains are the reason to get rid of it. If you're coming from Florida to New England, you probably have to expect delays already. But there's a big difference between missing a connection and having to rebook in a busy train station and getting "home" a few hours late. I feel all of the people who feel connections are no big deal have never missed one.

Clearly New England cities like Boston and New Haven have plenty of regional train service but have very limited (in the case of New Haven, no) LD service. To me, that is a big deal. I wonder if some of you think LD service is a thing of the past in this country or that LD service should only exist when there isn't any current regional service.



Anderson said:


> Well, you've got two issues:
> 
> (1) There's the "loss of traffic" argument (that the mere presence of a transfer costs traffic) though I suspect this is less of an issue in the NEC.
> 
> ...


If taking the 19th train away from Shore Line East is so horrible, then maybe the Inland Route is the way to go. You'd be trading Providence for Hartford and Springfield (New Haven would be covered either way).


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 27, 2015)

I believe the problem really is Metro North not Shore Line East


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## jis (Nov 27, 2015)

Actually the Meteor should be returned to its previous timing so that it requires only three consists instead of four so that the released cars can be used to provide service on NYP - PHL - PGH - CHI route. Forget about extending to Boston.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 27, 2015)

Which time card are you thinking of JiS? When it was in Florence by six am. I agree while heartedly


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## jis (Nov 27, 2015)

I don't remember other stop times by heart and right now I am in Wales approaching Cardiff Central on the way to Crewe, and the onto Edinburgh Waverly, so I don't have the old timetables handy. It is only Amtrak that invented the current schedule which requires four consists.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 27, 2015)

jis said:


> Actually the Meteor should be returned to its previous timing so that it requires only three consists instead of four so that the released cars can be used to provide service on NYP - PHL - PGH - CHI route. Forget about extending to Boston.


Talk about forcing me to choose sides. Well it's obvious which one I'd choose though.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 27, 2015)

jis said:


> I don't remember other stop times by heart and right now I am in Wales approaching Cardiff Central on the way to Crewe, and the onto Edinburgh Waverly, so I don't have the old timetables handy. It is only Amtrak that invented the current schedule which requires four consists.


timetables.org.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 27, 2015)

jis said:


> ... am in Wales approaching Cardiff Central on the way to Crewe, and then on to Edinburgh Waverly, so I don't have the old timetables handy. It is only Amtrak that invented the current schedule which requires four consists.


Hope your holiday trip is as good as it sounds!

We'll save some pixels here, so you can comment more fully when you get back to the States.


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## jis (Nov 27, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I don't remember other stop times by heart and right now I am in Wales approaching Cardiff Central on the way to Crewe, and the onto Edinburgh Waverly, so I don't have the old timetables handy. It is only Amtrak that invented the current schedule which requires four consists.
> ...


Truth be told at present I have more interesting things to attend to than poking around in timetables.org.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 27, 2015)

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Do you remember the year(s)? I can look it up.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 28, 2015)

Philly I think 2001 if I'm not mistaken. As I caught 97 in Florence a lot around six am. Maybe seven


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 28, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> Philly I think 2001 if I'm not mistaken. As I caught 97 in Florence a lot around six am. Maybe seven


The 97 left NYP at 7:05pm (today 3:15pm) and arrived in MIA at 9:46pm (today 6:39pm). That was in the days when the Silver Palm went to Florida. The 91 schedule back then is pretty close to today's schedule. The 89/90 (then to Florida) left a little later/ arrived a little earlier into NYP than the current Palmetto does. They provided an earlier arrival into Florida and a later departure from Florida).

I am not sure how the four hour shift allows Amtrak to run with one fewer consist going south (and the northbound 98 schedule is very close to the current one).

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20010429n&item=0034

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20010429n&item=0035

Maybe once the Viewliners come back in addition to a CHI-PHL train (whether CL/Pennsylvanian or a separate train) we can re-extend the Palmetto back to Florida. I would imagine a third train from the NEC to Florida would be welcome.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 28, 2015)

It would be welcome but I see the extended Palmetto having an interesting market. It's primary would be SAV-NYP as is and MIA-TPA. If the Meteors (train 97) schedule would shift it would make things far nicer for the east coast. It would make it possible for day trips from anywhere on the east coast to Washington and points north. Plus it would open up the strong South Carolina market south. Florence and Charleston already do good business on 97/98 but the shift would help. That gives both Carolina's a decent hour Florida train Nc gets 91/92 and SC get 97/98. I wouldn't move the current Star in my opinion unless I could move it early enough to hit Columbia before midnight. But then you alienate the Charlotte-FL market, and the Piedmont connection.


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## neroden (Nov 28, 2015)

The later depature of #97 would have been a godsend when i was on a delayed Empire Service and had a specific day I needed to be in Florida. Missing the connection meant I had to cancel the whole trip and get refunds for the entire thing. The 7:05 PM departure is better.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 28, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> It would be welcome but I see the extended Palmetto having an interesting market. It's primary would be SAV-NYP as is and MIA-TPA. If the Meteors (train 97) schedule would shift it would make things far nicer for the east coast. It would make it possible for day trips from anywhere on the east coast to Washington and points north. Plus it would open up the strong South Carolina market south. Florence and Charleston already do good business on 97/98 but the shift would help. That gives both Carolina's a decent hour Florida train Nc gets 91/92 and SC get 97/98. I wouldn't move the current Star in my opinion unless I could move it early enough to hit Columbia before midnight. But then you alienate the Charlotte-FL market, and the Piedmont connection.


Currently it is: 76 arrives in Raleigh at 8:26pm and 91 leaves Raleigh for Florida at 9:01pm. Would Amtrak even allow that tight a connection? You could do Cary (8:08pm to 9:23pm) I guess but how big a station is Cary? I don't think any Carolina passengers want to take the 74 and have to wait almost 6 hours in Raleigh.

The 92-75 connection has a three hour layover (8:45am to 11:45am) which seems like a long time but necessary in case the SS arrives late. Plus, there's the Carolinian as a backup although that doesn't leave Raleigh until 4:50pm.

I feel the Silver Star/Piedmont connection has to be studied in more detail going from CLT to Florida. Perhaps if the state of North Carolina adds more Piedmont trains the problem will be fixed.


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## Anderson (Nov 28, 2015)

I'll confess that I'd kvetch up a storm if 97 got shoved substantially later [1]...but it wouldn't even be that bad for me since it would let me leave WAS a lot later. Being able to leave WAS at, say, 2300 and get into RVR at about 0100 means I get a full day (including dinner) with friends in DC; a year or two ago it would have meant drinks with Brian Gallagher after a reception. It would _also_ mean that a Meteor-Meteor round-trip into New York would net me a full day there (1000/1100-1900). Taking the train to New York for eight hours translates into a nice lunch and a museum or two.

As to 89/90 [2], I'd be inclined to run a section down FEC and a section to ORL/TPA, timing operations for an arrival into WPB/MIA and ORL/TPA in time for the start of business (0700 ORL, 0900 TPA). This is actually a decent time from a tourist perspective as well if you could get your bags held: Presuming reasonable reliability, you'd be able to get to most of the Orlando parks in time for the start of operations (which at $100/day for admission to Magic Kingdom is kind of a big deal). South Florida is condensed enough that you'd be able to arrange a similar arrival for basically all of the stations down there under the same rubric.

One other thing: I thought when all three trains were running NYP-MIA, the scheduling was to allow three trains with ten sets (as opposed to two trains needing eight sets now), not necessarily set-swapping with the Broadway or Lake Shore?

[1] I've gotten accustomed to grabbing it from WAS, having dinner, and then getting off in RVR. This is really the trip setup that got me set on taking Amtrak regularly. The steak is a nice break from the Regional cafe.

[2] And frankly, all three trains in an ideal world...and possibly certain other services which are AWOL...in keeping with their timetables.


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## jis (Nov 28, 2015)

That schedule allows 97/98 to be run with one less consist because you get to turn a consist in New York on the same day. Sort of like you do with LSL in Chicago.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 28, 2015)

Now what other routes could be tightened up to free one extra set. Let's say we would so my Ohio state Limited as it's a two set train. The Meteor move frees one of two. What other route can be tweaked to have one less set. Initially I thought the crescent but leaving any earlier from NOLA would be an issue.


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## jis (Nov 28, 2015)

Theoretically the Cap could be tightened slightly to do it with two sets instead of three, but most consider that impractical with the CSX an NS shenanigans between the east and Chicago.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 28, 2015)

I'm sure many of you read my proposal for Boston to Florida service. In the middle of it came the topic of North Carolina to Florida service.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66344-revisiting-boston-florida-service/?p=635753

I had discussed the tight time between train 76 and train 91 going from Charlotte to Florida via Raleigh. I had also discussed a third train from the NEC to Florida.

The 2011 PRIIA for the Silver Service said that they studied rerouting the Silver Star via Charlotte and Greensboro but said it wasn't feasible.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/570/756/2011%20PRIIA%20210%20Report%2009-26-11_final.pdf

I also thought about Seaboard92's proposal for Chicago-Florida service via Atlanta.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/

Well I put that all together and thought about a new idea for a train...

Have a train take the Crescent route from NYP to ATL, then turn at ATL to serve Florida. Of course this has to wait until the Viewliner II's come in.

There are a few different ways this can be done.

Option 1 (Easiest implementation): Through cars from ATL to MIA on the Crescent.

The train would split/merge with the Crescent in ATL. Using a rough estimate of 6 hours from ATL to JAX, the train could leave ATL around 9am, JAX around 3pm, ORL around 6pm,and MIA around midnight. The return would leave MIA around 3am, ORL around 9am, JAX around noon, and ATL around 6pm to connect with the Crescent from NOL. To get better times in Florida, you can move the southbound 19 up an hour and the northbound 20 back 3 hours.

Option 2: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Crescent stays same

The train would run approximately 33 hours (NYP-ATL 18 hrs, ATL-JAX 6 hrs, JAX-MIA 9 hrs). This train could serve as a 2nd daily from NYP to ATL as well as access from GRO/CLT/ATL to Florida. It's doubtful anyone from the NEC would go to Florida using this train.

Southbound 9: NYP 7:15pm, PHL 8:55pm, WAS 11:30pm, CLT 7:20/7:45am, ATL 1:13/1:38pm, JAX 7:39/8:04pm, ORL 11:14/11:29pm, MIA 5:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

You might have to move the northbound 98 back a bit to avoid overlap with the northbound 10.

Option 3: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Switch Crescent 19 southbound back

Southbound 9: (NYP to ATL times same as current 19 southbound) JAX 2:39/3:04pm, ORL 6:14/6:29pm, MIA 12:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

Southbound 19: NYP 6:15pm, PHL 7:55pm, WAS 10:30pm, Charlotte 6:20/6:45am, ATL 12:13/12:38pm, NOL 11:32/midnight

Northbound 20 unchanged

Option 4: Separate train NEC-CLT-ATL-Florida (Silver Moon), Extend Crescent to SAS (similar to previous proposal)

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/

Southbound 9: (NYP to ATL times same as current 19 southbound) JAX 2:39/3:04pm, ORL 6:14/6:29pm, MIA 12:09am

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

Southbound 19: NYP 6:15pm, PHL 7:55pm, WAS 10:30pm, Charlotte 6:20/6:45am, ATL 12:13/12:38pm, NOL 11:32/midnight, HOU 9:18/9:55am, SAS 3:05pm

Northbound 20: SAS 2:25pm, HOU 7:10/8:10pm, NOL 5:40/7:00am (NOL to NYP times unchanged)

Southbound 21/421: CHI noon, STL 5:36/6:15pm, DAL 9:45/10:05am, SAS 8:10/9:00pm, El Paso 7:37/8:02am, Tucson 1:00/1:50pm , Maricopa 3:07/3:17pm, LAX 11:50pm

Layover in SAS from 19 to 21/421: 3:05pm to 9:00pm

Layover in SAS from 22/422 to 20: 5:50am to 2:25pm

When I first proposed this, one of the complaints was shifting the southbound 19 schedule. Under this proposal, the southbound 9 takes its place from NYP to ATL. They also said there would be a lack of trains but assuming the Viewliner II's are in, you might have the necessary equipment.

Under these schedules, you can do 422 to 20 to 9 to go from LAX/Texas to Florida without going through CHI. Unfortunately 10 to 19 via ATL would require an overnight in ATL. You could also do any Florida train to WAS (the 92 would have the shortest layover with the 19) and then the 19 to SAS which sounds stupid but right now there's no way to get from Florida to Texas/LAX without going through CHI.

Option 4 is the most aggressive. Options 2 and 3 allows for two NEC to ATL trains. If you split the current NYP-ATL Crescent traffic between the Crescent and Silver Moon you might be able to run the Crescent with one fewer coach car. Option 1 simply adds the option from ATL (and GRO/CLT) to Florida.

Again, it all depends on the Viewliner II's. But if Amtrak can establish ATL to JAX, it does open up some new city pairs.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 28, 2015)

Philly, I almost would put this in it's own topic. As it's worthy of it in my opinion. But here is my option. Have the train leave with the Palmetto at six am from NYP. maybe combine those two. Then run it down the crescents route as a day train to Atlanta. Looking at a arrival around eleven. Route via NS to JAX from there. You are in JAX at the same time for the Star one could either combine the two. Or route one via the FEC south to Miami. In the case I would run the Silver Comet and split it. Half goes to tampa and terminates. Half goes to MIA via the FEC. The star then could drop Tampa and speed it's time card up


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 28, 2015)

And for the return leg have it leave ATL around six get into NYP around the same time as the Palmetto. Which puts this new train running in the Stars slot again in Florida. So either rescheduling the Star around or detouring one train to the FEC with a Tampa section.


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## jis (Nov 29, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> And for the return leg have it leave ATL around six get into NYP around the same time as the Palmetto. Which puts this new train running in the Stars slot again in Florida. So either rescheduling the Star around or detouring one train to the FEC with a Tampa section.


There is no way to get a train the departs Atlanta at 6am into NYP at the same time as the Palmetto today. So this proposal is unattainable today. It might become possible some day, but not in the next five or so years.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 29, 2015)

Would this work?

Northbound 10: MIA 2:50pm, ORL 8:03/8:15pm, JAX 11:22/11:42pm, ATL 5:35/6:04am, CLT 11:21/11:46am, WAS 7:53pm, PHL 10:08pm, NYP 11:46pm

The ATL and NYP aren't quite terrible but not desirable either. If the train is late from the south, you're going to have a lot of unhappy passengers in NYP arriving after midnight. It does allow for a midday departure from North Carolina to the NEC as opposed to early morning on the Carolinian or the middle of the night on the Crescent.

My original proposal was:

Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

I hate to see Charlotte still in the dark (Greensboro would be 6:37/6:44am). The Florida times are pretty close to the current 98 northbound so that may have to be changed when the late arrival in New York would avoid that problem.

Would the late arrival into NYP be reasonable to you or would you have to do the original schedule?


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## jis (Nov 29, 2015)

The original schedule is preferable IMHO, though I would pad in about an hour and a half to move the arrival to well after 6pm in NYP. I am almost certain no one will allow scheduling an LD arrival so close to commission hour.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

I see this less as a NY-FL train. More as a two market train. One being ATL-NYP and the other intra Florida. I like the revised schedule actually. Sure arriving in New York at that time stinks but I don't see it as having that much thru traffic. As the existing Florida trains would probably keep their NEC Florida trains because they have a faster carding


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## jis (Nov 29, 2015)

In that case it need not go to New York. It can just be turned in Washington, like most historical day train to Atlanta were. There may be just a possible connection to a late Regional to NYP. Basically any practical ATL - NYP schedule at present is 18 hours. If after the completion of the SEHSR it can be brought down to 16 hours then a real daytime train arriving into NYP ten o'clock-ish becomes feasible.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 29, 2015)

jis said:


> The original schedule is preferable IMHO, though I would pad in about an hour and a half to move the arrival to well after 6pm in NYP. I am almost certain no one will allow scheduling an LD arrival so close to commission hour.


Original Northbound 10: MIA 7:50am, ORL 1:03/1:15pm, JAX 4:22/4:42pm, ATL 10:35/11:04pm, CLT 4:21/4:46am, WAS 12:53pm, PHL 3:08pm, NYP 4:46pm

You could move the times up 1 hour so it arrives in NYP at 3:46pm. Charlotte and Greensboro would be worse though and 6:50am is pretty early for MIA.

If you move the times back 1.5 hours, then the train arrives/leaves ATL after midnight.

I actually agree with Seaboard92 despite the late night into NYP.  The Palmetto does get into NYP at 11:36pm so it isn't unprecedented. Anyone from ATL to the NEC would probably take the 20. Anyone from Florida would probably take the 92 or 98. Since this train is mainly for the Carolina (and Atlanta) market, I think it's important that their times are reasonable.  In addition to being an Atlanta/Carolina train to Florida, I can also see it becoming a Charlotte/Greensboro to NEC train. The Crescent leaves Carolina in the graveyard shift and the Carolinian leaves Charlotte at 7:00am so a later time may be welcome for them. 

Would it be a problem with the Palmetto and Silver Moon so close along the East Coast though? Maybe you can move the Palmetto up an hour. You'd leave Savannah at 7:20am but Savannah also has the Silver Meteor north to the NEC (the Silver Star is 1:22am).


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## jis (Nov 29, 2015)

It could work. Except that it then ceases to be a very attractive train from Florida to Atlanta with a 5:30 or so arrival. But I suppose since it will be the only train people will suck it up  For a day train from Atlanta I would try to have it start a bit later. But then again the Palmetto starts a little after 6 from NY.

Oh yeah, I am almost certain that no one will run two trains ten minutes apart late in the evening when they are otherwise trying to wind things down and tracks out of service for maintenance and such. I rather suspect that they will either want to run it as a single train north of WAS or force a transfer from one of them.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

I could see it being combined with the Palmetto north of Washington. That really shouldn't be too hard. It'll arrive slightly before the palmetto. Pull the Palmettos diesel and then take the electric with the Silver Moon and back into it


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## Anderson (Nov 29, 2015)

Well, you can combine it with the Palmetto...or you could do some sort of combo/transfer with 66/67 if your Atlanta times require it.

As to times in Florida, you've got a few choices there. One option is to mostly force off the short-haul traffic in FL ("fleeting" the trains out of Miami isn't going to cause much heartburn; if anything, FEC and/or CSX might appreciate that). Another would be to give the Silver Moon the "Tampa sidestep" and shift the Star to skip Tampa (or tinker with the schedule and slot this alongside the Star instead of the Meteor heading north). Another would be to actually combine the trains to JAX/SAV (take your pick, but I think JAX is more set up for it) and just deadhead part or all of the operating crews north. So, even precluding FL S-line operations there are multiple choices if you want this train to serve ORL.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 29, 2015)

I tried to enter an Excel table but the formatting was all off. Exported to a pdf file attached.

Feel free to suggest preferences and/or changes.

New Carolina, Atlanta to Florida 2015.pdf


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

My phone app is messing up the excel timetable like it messes everyone's up. So I'll comment more to that when I get on my desktop in a few hours. But my gut feeling is it's better to have the overnight section from JAX-ATL. Currently the way CSX runs trains in Florida there should be plenty of slots on the A line. And on the S line into Miami from Auburndale south shouldn't be that hard to get a slot


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## Anderson (Nov 29, 2015)

The excel chart didn't work. Try using Notepad with a code box (e.g. [code'][/code'] without the ' thrown in) instead...also to save on space, I recommend using a 24-hour clock (e.g. 0000-2359); that way you only use six character spaces per column plus the vertical bars. Using station codes (JAX, MIA, etc.) also saves on spaces as well.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 29, 2015)

Changed my schedule to a .pdf file.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

Thank you philly that's amazing


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

Ok here is my opinion on this. I like your last option for the northbound the best for these two regions. It gives Miami a later train north as currently you go north in the morning south in the afternoon. And I like that we're adding a daylight train from ATL-NYP. But here is what I think southbound send it out of New York early at six am and it hits ATL around midnight. Overnight to JAX and take the Silver Stars slot south. Pushing the star back two hours into the Meteors slot headed south in Florida. And shoving the meteor back to a three set operation leaving at 7 at night from New York. You free up a set. And the major market of NYP-RGH is still in a decent time. Plus SAV benefits with five of six trains at decent hours. What do you guys think


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 29, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> Ok here is my opinion on this. I like your last option for the northbound the best for these two regions. It gives Miami a later train north as currently you go north in the morning south in the afternoon. And I like that we're adding a daylight train from ATL-NYP. But here is what I think southbound send it out of New York early at six am and it hits ATL around midnight. Overnight to JAX and take the Silver Stars slot south. Pushing the star back two hours into the Meteors slot headed south in Florida. And shoving the meteor back to a three set operation leaving at 7 at night from New York. You free up a set. And the major market of NYP-RGH is still in a decent time. Plus SAV benefits with five of six trains at decent hours. What do you guys think


This is your day train between NYP and ATL and overnight between ATL and JAX and your suggested shifts for the Star (2 hrs later) and Meteor (4 hrs later).

This would be a great schedule for transfers in Atlanta between the Silver Moon and Crescent:

Florida to New Orleans: 10: Arr ATL 5:35am from Florida, 19: Lv ATL 8:38am for New Orleans

New Orleans to Florida: 20: Arr ATL 7:35pm from New Orleans, 9: Lv ATL 12:38am for Florida

Seaboard92 Carolina, Atlanta to Florida 2015.pdf


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

I see one other good connection in this too. I see a Chicago on 30 connection to 91 or 97. The 91 is really good for the Carolina markets. What I love about this time card is going south out of JAX it isn't exactly fleeting the trains. You have an early morning, a mid morning, and afternoon. It looks like a much better time card. Plus the meteor frees up a set of equipment.

The other interesting expansion that would tie in would be the Crescent Star from FTW. That should improve the TX-FL time for right now. And help give options that aren't a night in NOLA or up to Chicago for the south to go west


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## Alex M. (Nov 30, 2015)

On Seaboard92's proposed routing of the Silver Moon (I prefer resurrecting the name Silver Comet, but whatever the name), this adds one more daytime service to Lynchburg, which VA had been planning anyway. This would be a lucrative stop ridership wise


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 30, 2015)

And it helps the Crescent with it's strong ATL-NYP market. Which is a lot of VA points to be Honest. I prefer Silver Comet too. Also the time card might be able to tightened if VA starts putting work into the line to Lynchburg. And NC continues to upgrade GRO-CLT. So it actually might have a chance of a tighter card in the future


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## Palmetto (Nov 30, 2015)

I do believe this thread has been hijacked.


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## west point (Nov 30, 2015)

Any LD train to BOS ? Several posters have pointed out on other threads that there is at present a 9 car limit in BOS's maintenance facility. Understand resolution of that is going to be difficult and very expensive.


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 30, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> I do believe this thread has been hijacked.





west point said:


> Any LD train to BOS ? Several posters have pointed out on other threads that there is at present a 9 car limit in BOS's maintenance facility. Understand resolution of that is going to be difficult and very expensive.


West Point: Boston is irrelevant. We are no longer talking about the concepts that were previously discussed in the Expanding Some Exisitng Amtrak Routes Along the NEC? thread.

Please follow along!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 30, 2015)

west point said:


> Any LD train to BOS ? Several posters have pointed out on other threads that there is at present a 9 car limit in BOS's maintenance facility. Understand resolution of that is going to be difficult and very expensive.


My original post was LD to BOS. Somehow it became talk about an additional LD to Florida and I had suggested going through North Carolina and Atlanta. I started a new post for my proposed new route but one of the moderators merged it into this post. I agree it's confusing.


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## neroden (Nov 30, 2015)

jis said:


> Theoretically the Cap could be tightened slightly to do it with two sets instead of three, but most consider that impractical with the CSX an NS shenanigans between the east and Chicago.


It's also worth noting in the context of "using fewer sets per run" that the Cardinal currently uses 2 sets to run three times a week, but would use only 3 sets to run daily.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 30, 2015)

jis said:


> Theoretically the Cap could be tightened slightly to do it with two sets instead of three, but most consider that impractical with the CSX an NS shenanigans between the east and Chicago.


The South of the Lake project alone could cut 30 or 40 minutes out of the _Capital Ltd's _schedule to Toledo. A full bore Corridor service Chicago-Cleveland would take 2 or 3 hours out of the current timetable. All that would be great for westbound trains and Cleveland riders

But eastbound, getting to Pittsburgh faster gets you there in the middle of the night, instead of at dawn. So solving the Cleveland times for the _Capital _-- and getting it into D.C. early enuff to turn it same day -- badly hurts the Pgh riders.

Really, if we speed things up, we'll need another train on the route with good times for Pgh. And we'll need more equipment sets to do that. LOL..


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Dec 5, 2015)

west point said:


> Any LD train to BOS ? Several posters have pointed out on other threads that there is at present a 9 car limit in BOS's maintenance facility. Understand resolution of that is going to be difficult and very expensive.


I found this in an old timetable. It just happened to be the same one where they had proposed the Skyline Connection.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20000521n&item=0034


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