# Emergency Cord



## trainfan (Dec 13, 2008)

I have seen several movies lately which involved trains and some how the plot always got around the

the emergency pull cord!!! to stop the train or not stop it as in "Silver Streak"

Do Amtrak cars have them because I dont remember seeing them??? If they do where are they??

Trainfan


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## battalion51 (Dec 13, 2008)

There is an emergency brake handle in each car, typically near the end door. These are only to be used in EXTREME Emergency. If an ordinary passenger were to use it, even if they were justified, they'd still be answering a lot of questions in the process. Silver Streak did use a little artistic liberty with the whole separation of the cars thing. When the connection is broken between two cars, the train dumps unless the angle **** is closed. In the movie only the rear end dumped after using the cord. The movie took a lot of liberties, but only people who really know trains would notice them.


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## Shawn (Dec 13, 2008)

Oh and don't forget Runaway from the 70's. When there was a supposed "ice clog" in the air line and the conductor was able to "pull" the brake on from a secret compartment in the coach, and then push it off and then pull it on again, and only affect the one coach. I enjoyed the movie, but most of it was very made up.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 13, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> There is an emergency brake handle in each car, typically near the end door. These are only to be used in EXTREME Emergency


Let me also point out that the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLES on windows are not curtain pulls. On a recent southbound Surfliner some female twit was bothered by the sun, said "Let's lower the curtain," and yanked on the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE.

Some people just shouldn't be allowed to run loose.


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## battalion51 (Dec 13, 2008)

Remember, when in doubt, read.


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## Shawn (Dec 13, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> Remember, when in doubt, read.


Um, I think you are asking too much. People don't do that well.


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## GG-1 (Dec 13, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> Some people just shouldn't be allowed to run loose.


That must include us as we run in "Gatherings" or "Fests" :lol: :lol:

Aloha

BTW found coat now to loose more weight so I can Button it.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 13, 2008)

GG-1 said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
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> 
> > Some people just shouldn't be allowed to run loose.
> ...


fascinate.

i got 9 buttons on this coat and i can only fascinate(fasten eight)


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## battalion51 (Dec 13, 2008)

It's more better that way. :lol:


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 13, 2008)

How fast would the average Amtrak train take to stop using that cord?

And what are logical reasons to pull it anyway?


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## PetalumaLoco (Dec 13, 2008)

My mother used to tell me of her brother, decades ago, who missed his stop. So he pulled the cord. Needless to say, they made sure he got off the train.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Dec 13, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> How fast would the average Amtrak train take to stop using that cord?
> And what are logical reasons to pull it anyway?



It depends on how fast the train is traveling at the time....

I saw a conductor pull it one time to stop the train in a station when the train started rolling a little while it was stopped in the station and we had started boarding passengers.

OBS gone freight...


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## GG-1 (Dec 13, 2008)

Oh I think when I was 6 or 7 I use to think that cord when all the way to the engine and was attached to the break peddle, always wondered what the engineer would think if he felt the peddle move 

Aloha


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 13, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> How fast would the average Amtrak train take to stop using that cord?
> And what are logical reasons to pull it anyway?


Clearly the stop distance depends on the speed when the cord is pulled, and the weight of the train. I've been on two trains that went into emergency. The first was a Surfliner, to avoid a collision at a grade crossing. Collision avoided, but had to sit for a few minutes while the train was inspected. Second was on the return to L.A. during the Santa Fe 3751 steam excursion last June. That was chalked up to an air dump of "unspecified cause." Again an inspection wait before proceeding. In neither case was a cord pulled, but an emergency stop is an emergency stop.

A train in emergency is not like a car slamming on the brakes, but you definitely feel the unusually rapid deceleration. On the Surfliner, riding alone, I thought "Bet that was an emergency stop." Hadn't experienced one before, but it was pretty obvious. Then an attendant came on the PA and said, "For those of you who were wondering, yes, that was an emergency stop. We didn't hit anything." Major relief, cuz I was on my way to the airport; a collision woulda screwed me.

On the excursion a number of us were talking when we went into emergency. Everybody's eyebrows went up, we all looked at each other, and several of us said, almost in unison, "This isn't good." Upon learning that it was an air dump, and all was well, we launched into a discussion of the history of train braking.

As for a logical reason to pull the cord, one leaps to mind: A murderous wacko shooting passengers, as happened on the Long Island Rail Road a few years back.


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## the Other Mike (Dec 13, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > There is an emergency brake handle in each car, typically near the end door. These are only to be used in EXTREME Emergency
> ...


A blond ?


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> As for a logical reason to pull the cord, one leaps to mind: A murderous wacko shooting passengers, as happened on the Long Island Rail Road a few years back.


Actually even that's not a good reason to pull the cord. Better to let the train continue into the station where police and fire can reach people faster and more easily. Pulling the cord isn't going to stop the guy with the gun from shooting anyone, and it's far more likely to injure people either with the abrupt stop or when they start jumping out of the car.

You should only pull the cord if someone is caught in the door and being dragged.

You don't pull it for a medical emergency (find a conductor), you don't pull if for a fire (you move to another car), and you don't pull it becuase you missed your stop.


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## battalion51 (Dec 14, 2008)

Well said Alan.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 14, 2008)

AlanB said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> > As for a logical reason to pull the cord, one leaps to mind: A murderous wacko shooting passengers, as happened on the Long Island Rail Road a few years back.
> ...


In an urban area you're probably right, Alan. But if something like that broke out on, say, the CZ out in middle of the Nevada nowhere I'd pull the cord and take my chances on the ground.


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> AlanB said:
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> > WhoozOn1st said:
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And if you did that and caused a delay in medical services reaching the train because the nearest road was 20 miles away, you'd now be liable should the victims decide to sue.

Again, run to another car. Try to tackle the person with the gun, throw food at him, whatever. But pulling the cord is not the best option.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 14, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
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> > battalion51 said:
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A brunette in shades, part of a twit Gang of Four.

Gang of Four

Curtain Pull


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## sechs (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> A train in emergency is not like a car slamming on the brakes, but you definitely feel the unusually rapid deceleration. On the Surfliner, riding alone, I thought "Bet that was an emergency stop." Hadn't experienced one before, but it was pretty obvious.


In my experience, the first thing that pops in my head when my train goes into emergency is either, "Why are we stopping?" or "What just flew by us?"


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 14, 2008)

AlanB said:


> You should only pull the cord if someone is caught in the door and being dragged.
> You don't pull it for a medical emergency (find a conductor), you don't pull if for a fire (you move to another car), and you don't pull it becuase you missed your stop.


The Eschede train disaster probably could have been prevented if the emergency cord had been pulled.


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## GG-1 (Dec 14, 2008)

AlanB said:


> You should only pull the cord if someone is caught in the door and being dragged.
> You don't pull it for a medical emergency (find a conductor), you don't pull if for a fire (you move to another car), and you don't pull it because you missed your stop.


A lot of us had some fun with this Myself included. After Alan's comment It bothered me as a safety officer in my union that I made lite of the Emergency Cord by remembering thoughts from my youth, I shouldn't have, People die when we forget safety. Alan is correct and I repeat his quote.



AlanB said:


> You should only pull the cord if someone is caught in the door and being dragged.
> You don't pull it for a medical emergency (find a conductor), you don't pull if for a fire (you move to another car), and you don't pull it because you missed your stop.


Mahalo Alan


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 14, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> There is an emergency brake handle in each car, typically near the end door. These are only to be used in EXTREME Emergency. If an ordinary passenger were to use it, even if they were justified, they'd still be answering a lot of questions in the process. Silver Streak did use a little artistic liberty with the whole separation of the cars thing. When the connection is broken between two cars, the train dumps unless the angle **** is closed. In the movie only the rear end dumped after using the cord. The movie took a lot of liberties, but only people who really know trains would notice them.


In real life, do the traction motors keep trying to drag the train forward if the cars are uncoupled in the fashion depicted in Silver Streak, which in real life causes the air brake line at the locomotive to lose pressure?


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 14, 2008)

My emergency chord is B flat minor.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> the Other Mike said:
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> 
> > WhoozOn1st said:
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Heheh, its worth noting that there are no curtains I can see...


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## Kevin L. (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > How fast would the average Amtrak train take to stop using that cord?
> ...


Provided that the brake provides enough force to lock the wheels, the weight of the train does not have a direct impact on stopping distance.

The distribution of mass has an effect, as it changes the all important center of mass.

For more information:http://crpit.com/confpapers/CRPITV3Barney.pdf . Herein, the difference between the 2 levels of brake force are used to ensure that the wheel locks, which is still the fastest way to stop a rolling wheel in ideal conditions.

Just in case anyone has a physics test coming up


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## Shawn (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmm, this isn't a black and white question. From my experience in emergency services and train service, I would have differing opinions...

1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.

2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.

3) Medical emergencies are a definite no. You gotta find somewhere to meet the fire department.

So, you can run a list of "what if's" but it all comes down to...what the situation is at that exact moment.


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## the Other Mike (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> the Other Mike said:
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> > WhoozOn1st said:
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Were you able to NOT mutter "idiots" under your breath ?


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## the Other Mike (Dec 14, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> My emergency chord is B flat minor.


< groan............... as I'm hearing you say that in a Groucho Marx voice>


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## had8ley (Dec 14, 2008)

Just one addition to this post~ IF you pull the cord you are interfering with Interstate Commerce and the FRA, FBI and a few other agencies could be breathing down your neck so be verrry careful before you pull the cord!


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## Shawn (Dec 14, 2008)

Sounds like this topic has taken off on a path of its own....


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## RRrich (Dec 14, 2008)

Shawn said:


> Sounds like this topic has taken off on a path of its own....


Shall I pull the Emergency Cord so we can stop it and get if back on track?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 14, 2008)

Shawn said:


> 1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.


If the emergency brake controls are only located at the end of the car, then anyone who is in a position to operate them is probably also in a position to move to another car. The exception to that would be if there is no next car to move into from the end of the car one is in. Though I'm mostly thinking single level trains here; a fire that blocked access to a Superliner's single staircase is certainly something that would make me want to stop the train and get out if I happened to be on the lower level.

Remember that moving from one car to another is typically much faster than bringing the entire train to a halt. If a fire is contained in a single car which happens to be a single level car, the fastest escape will typically be moving to another car.

If there is anyone who cannot get out of a burning car on their own, letting the train roll to where it can more easily meet the fire department may improve the chances of survival for those who don't get out until the fire department rescues them. (Though I'm not sure how much Amtrak crews are expected to do in that case.)


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Dec 14, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Just one addition to this post~ IF you pull the cord you are interfering with Interstate Commerce and the FRA, FBI and a few other agencies could be breathing down your neck so be verrry careful before you pull the cord!



Aright... Alan pretty much summed it up of when it is and is not acceptable to pull the emergency brake lever/cord. Battalion51 has seconded that as well. And now had8ley has interjected another important piece of info to the the thread. Here's a little more to add to it....

Everyone should keep in mind that the emergency brake lever is technically for use by an "operating employee" other than the engineer to be able to take control of the train by stopping the movement. It was never really placed there for the use of a passenger or non employee unless of an extreme circumstance!

I have an emergency brake lever on my side (conductor/fireman) of the locomotive that I have use of in the event my engineer becomes incapacitated where my action may be needed prior to the train's alerting system (dead man's switch) kicking in. And of course it is required to be located in a conspicuous place on passenger equipment. The train's operating crew is required to maintain constant positive communication while on duty for the entire tour of duty. So if an engineer doesn't hear anything out of his conductor and/or assistant conductor, he/she is gonna be calling back soon via radio to keep that contact established. If there is no response, then the engineer is required to stop the train and investigate the situation. The same goes for the conductor and the rest of the operating crew. If a conductor calls his engineer and there is no response from the engineer then he/she is responsible to attempt to re-establish that communication ASAP or stop the train and investigate the problem as well. So when we get right down to it, there is really no reason for anyone other than an operating employee to use the emergency brake handle unless it is a case where someone is caught by the door, step, and being drug by the train and there is no conductor, OBS attendant, or any other employee available or close by to take control of the train's movement. In other words it darn well better be a life or death situation to begin with. As had8ley points out, there can be and are strict consequences to anyone pulling the brake lever for any reason other than a life or death situation!!! The best case is to leave that decision to the operating crew for their need maintain control of their train are the main reason those devices are in place. There are exceptions, but very few to say the least.

OBS gone freight...


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2008)

Shawn said:


> Hmm, this isn't a black and white question. From my experience in emergency services and train service, I would have differing opinions...
> 1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.
> 
> 2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.
> ...


Actually it is black and white. By law you cannot pull that cord for any of the reasons listed above.

In the first case, perhaps most of the people here would actually know how to get the doors opened and if need be, the traps open. But you average Joe who might be reading this wouldn't know that and would have just made a bad situation worse.

For your second item, consider that the crew may already know about the fire and may have already made arrangements for the fire department to meet them at the next grade crossing. Now here you come along and pull the cord, stopping the train two miles from the crossing where the fire department is racing to. You've just delayed assistance and quite possibly cost lives, all while committing an illegal act by pulling the cord. Enjoy your time in jail!

And depending on just where the fire is, you may have even made the fire worse. Consider if the fire in the last car of the train. The train’s forward motion keeps the breeze flowing to the rear, helping to prevent the fire from spreading forward. Stopping the train cuts off that breeze and allows the fire to engulf the entire train. Now granted the reverse is true also, if the fire is in the first car, then the train's motion will help to spread it. But trust me, 90% of those riding a train aren't going to be considering any of this if god forbid they wake up to find a fire onboard.

So bottom line, just don't pull the cord unless you see someone being dragged by a train.


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## MattW (Dec 14, 2008)

[sarcasm]

So what happens if the locomotive separates and for whatever reason, the brakes don't apply and no one but you notices (conductors breaking up fight between 8 drunks perhaps?)?

[/sarcasm]

(it's only half sarcastic, I ALWAYS think of worst case whatever I do so I can be prepared and relieved when worst case doesn't happen instead of expecting the best and scared, hurt, or dead if the worst did happen)


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2008)

MattW said:


> [sarcasm]So what happens if the locomotive separates and for whatever reason, the brakes don't apply and no one but you notices (conductors breaking up fight between 8 drunks perhaps?)?
> 
> [/sarcasm]
> 
> (it's only half sarcastic, I ALWAYS think of worst case whatever I do so I can be prepared and relieved when worst case doesn't happen instead of expecting the best and scared, hurt, or dead if the worst did happen)


Well if that scenario were to happen, pulling the emergency cord would do about as much good as your getting in front of the train and trying to stop it, a la Superman style.

A seperation can't happen without the brakes applying, but if by some miracle it did, pulling the brake cord activates the same braking system that has already failed to activate. So if the brakes didn't start working at the moment of seperation, pulling the brake cord isn't going to help as the system is obviously not working.

Now if you know how to set a hand brake and where to find it, that might help.


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## Kevin L. (Dec 14, 2008)

So, the emergency brake cable is like a 2nd brake pedal, and not like the "emergency"/parking brake, if compared to a car?

If the normal brake pedal has failed, this emergency cord is like the oxygen mask during a plane crash--just there to make you feel better, as it has no life saving effect?

Weird, but good to know.

In light of the idiot cadre on board, I seriously question how my 2nd ever amtrak trip will turn out. The first had an ignorant male babbling on into his cellphone about bud light and ignoring the conductor trying to take his ticket. It shouldn't take 5 attempts to get someone to hand over their ticket..but I digress


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## Tony (Dec 14, 2008)

Shawn said:


> Hmm, this isn't a black and white question. From my experience in emergency services and train service, I would have differing opinions...
> 1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.
> 
> 2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.
> ...


Maybe you could explain why all passengers would always be more smarter than the engineer, conductor, and all the attendants on the train?

I would leave the decision to "pull the cord" or not, to those with the experience, the training, and the status of the current situation.


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## Kevin L. (Dec 14, 2008)

That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.

Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.

The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.

"Evil will prevail when good does not stand against it" 

Sometimes, I wonder how police don't have more "accidental" shootings when apprehending suspects. You're running around with a knife 1/4th your height, wailing like a banshee, and carrying around a head, so we'll just arrest you and shove you in a jail with climate control, 3 free meals a day, a free gym, and HBO? I don't think so, though I already know that I wouldn't make a good police officer.

Again, the people who cut and ran were lauded, and a guy was hacked to death right in front of them. When "heroes" set new land speed records in fleeing from trouble that they could have easily stopped, my hope for the world goes down the drain.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 14, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
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> 
> > the Other Mike said:
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Yes, I was able to not mutter "idiots" under my breath. Instead I said, in a normal tone of voice, "That's not a curtain, you f***ing moron." The twits were right in front of me, but totally self-involved and oblivious. An excerpt from my trip report:

TWITS ON A TRAIN

At Irvine a Gang of Four boarded the BC car and occupied a quad set of facing seats a couple rows in front of me. By this time BC was around 3/4-7/8 full, and Coach was a total zoo. [EDIT: By end of the line at SAN, BC was down to 9 people - I counted.] The Gang of Four was noisy and obnoxious right off the bat.

South of Capistrano the rail line begins running on the coast. The Gang of Four consisted of two females and two males. One of the females was bothered by the sun's direct glare, said "Let's pull down the curtain," grabbed the RED EMERGENCY EXIT handle on the upper frame of her window, and gave it a good tug. Down came the rubber stripping. Rather than informing crew of the mistake, the Gang of Four elected to start playing really crappy music loud and sing along with it. After a time, during which the stripping sagged further and I was hoping the window would fall in and hit the clowns, the conductor passed through, told the Gang of Four to kill the tunes, and noticed the window. For this he was greeted with a barrage of derision and snide insults from a male member of the group.

The conductor was a better man than me, cuz I woulda put them off the train at Oceanside and made them fend for themselves to get to Solana Beach, their destination.

Full report: Twits On A Train


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## haolerider (Dec 14, 2008)

Kevin L. said:


> That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.
> Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.
> 
> The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.
> ...


I think you have things a bit mixed up. You mention the unfortunate killing on a bus and then reference people leaving a train! I am not sure what you would have done in the face of an obviously disturbed and most likely psychotic person with a large knife, but I know I probably would not have tried to disarm the nut case in the interest of self preservation. I am not (nor are most people) trained to take this kind of action and I doubt if you are either. The world will be OK without most people acting like a super-hero!


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 14, 2008)

Tony said:


> Maybe you could explain why all passengers would always be more smarter than the engineer, conductor, and all the attendants on the train?
> I would leave the decision to "pull the cord" or not, to those with the experience, the training, and the status of the current situation.


I certainly think that if one can find a crew member quickly, letting the crew handle things is the right plan.

If I were at the back of the last car of a train, and there was a fire in that car that was spreading towards the rear of the train that looked likely to engulf me in flames within the next minute, and the fire was preventing me from safely reaching any crew member, it is not clear to me that jumping from a moving train or just waiting to be engulfed by the flames would be a better choice than forcing the train to stop.


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2008)

Kevin L. said:


> So, the emergency brake cable is like a 2nd brake pedal, and not like the "emergency"/parking brake, if compared to a car?


Yes, exactly. When the engineer applies the brakes he reduces the air in the hose running from car to car. Pull the cord, you empty the air out of that hose. Uncouple the cars and you break that hose, again emptying the air out of the hose and applying the brakes.

So in that scenario earlier where a seperation was discussed, if for some odd reason the doesn't apply the brakes, it's highly unlikely that pulling the cord is going to apply the brakes.


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## MattW (Dec 14, 2008)

Er, I know normally when the hoses separate they let the air off and the brakes come on, but what about at the end of the car? Do they like back connect the hoses, or is there some kind of valve that prevents the unconnected hoses from letting the air off. I have never seen an Amtrak with EOTD/FRED, but I could have missed it. So if the hoses do have a valve that is normally closed when they're not connected, then would pulling the emergency brake let the air out?

Yea, It's late and I'm rambling, so sorry


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 14, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Kevin L. said:
> 
> 
> > So, the emergency brake cable is like a 2nd brake pedal, and not like the "emergency"/parking brake, if compared to a car?
> ...


This Wikipedia article has a good deal of detail on this subject.


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## profwebs (Dec 14, 2008)

haolerider said:


> Kevin L. said:
> 
> 
> > That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.
> ...


I have opinions on both of your arguments. I would like to think that I would be able to step in and be "the super hero" in a situation like the Greyhound incident. However, without being in the situation I can't say for sure what I would do. I do know what it is like when the fight or flight response kicks in, and depending on the situation, most people will run.

What would the world be like if the passengers of flight 93 hadn't taken matters into their own hands? Should they have waited for trained people to help them? These days, I think we need to be more vigilant and be prepared to step in.


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## Chatter163 (Dec 14, 2008)

> Let me also point out that the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLES on windows are not curtain pulls. On a recent southbound Surfliner some female twit was bothered by the sun, said "Let's lower the curtain," and yanked on the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE.


Oh, please, that old "passenger thought it was the window shade/curtain" canard has been around forever. The handle is nowhere near the window, and this tired old urban legend has been around the track more times than anyone can remember. Let's not repat it here.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 14, 2008)

flight 93 had box cutters not swords. Your telling me that YOU would try to disarm a man swinging a 3 foot long sword around like a samurai warrior. im sorry but the passengers did the right thing getting off that bus and trapping him.how many more people would have died or ended up missing arms and stuff trying to stop him on that greyhound bus. the only way to disarm a person with a sword is either a sharp shooter or a fire hose on full power.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 15, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> the only way to disarm a person with a sword is either a sharp shooter or a fire hose on full power.


I'm a little skeptical that with several resourceful people working together that would necessarily be true.


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2008)

MattW said:


> Er, I know normally when the hoses separate they let the air off and the brakes come on, but what about at the end of the car? Do they like back connect the hoses, or is there some kind of valve that prevents the unconnected hoses from letting the air off. I have never seen an Amtrak with EOTD/FRED, but I could have missed it. So if the hoses do have a valve that is normally closed when they're not connected, then would pulling the emergency brake let the air out?Yea, It's late and I'm rambling, so sorry


Amtrak used to run with FRED back when they were in the freight hauling business, but it's rare to see FRED on the bottom these days as he's not needed if the consist only has passenger cars. The AT I believe still runs with FRED, thanks to the car carriers, but that's about it.

In the case where there is no FRED needed, you'll see a short length of hose usually hooked onto the safety bar that prevents you from walking out the rear of the train. That hose has a valve on it that keeps the air in and the system charged. When a train is backing up, you'll see the conductor holding that hose and valve, just he case he has to put the train into emergency.

If one were to add a car on the rear of the train, one would first disconnect that short lenght of hose from the mainline. Then couple the cars up and connect their two hoses together. The short lenght of hose would then be moved to the last car to close the system.

Hence why I said, if you have a seperation, the air should drop out of the entire train unless something has gone majorly wrong and the system has somehow bled out or something gummed up the works such that the hose at the seperation point was clogged. Only in the latter case would pulling the emergency cord do any good.

But you'd really be beating the odds to not only have a seperation, but to have a seperation right at the point where the hose somehow got clogged or stopped. And the odds are that the engineer would have noticed such a clog/stopped problem long before any seperation could occur. He'd have problems stopping the train along the way.


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2008)

profwebs said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin L. said:
> ...


Since someone mentioned the Long Island masacre on the LIRR train, let me mention that's exactly what did happen. Even as some people were running to the next cars, several others took their lives into their own hands and jumped onto the maniac with gun and subdued him. I believe that one of the heros was actually shot, although I don't think that he died.


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## MattW (Dec 15, 2008)

Grab a suitcase and drop it on his head from the upper rack.


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2008)

Chatter163 said:


> > Let me also point out that the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLES on windows are not curtain pulls. On a recent southbound Surfliner some female twit was bothered by the sun, said "Let's lower the curtain," and yanked on the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE.
> 
> 
> Oh, please, that old "passenger thought it was the window shade/curtain" canard has been around forever. The handle is nowhere near the window, and this tired old urban legend has been around the track more times than anyone can remember. Let's not repat it here.


Um, I'm pretty sure that Patrick isn't pulling our leg here and that he did indeed witness this person pull on the red emergency exit handle for the window.

And even though this topic in general is about the emergency cord, in this case we're not talking about the emergency cord. We're talking about the emergency escape for the window. So that handle has to be by the window, since it releases the window from the frame such that one can pull the window out and escape from the train.


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## battalion51 (Dec 15, 2008)

To elaborate on what Alan said, a train that is only running with passenger cars does not need a FRED. In between each car and the engines there are a few cables/connections. One of these is obviously the air hose that allows the brake system to operate (every railroad car, freight or passenger has this). The others that are passenger train specific are the HEP jumpers and the COMM cable. The HEP jumpers provide electricity to the train generated by the locomotive. The COMM cable communicates between each car and lets the computer on the engine know that everything is functioning with it (Miami Joe, wherever he is, or Dutch could probably provide more insight on this). But I do know that having this cable makes it so that the FRED isn't necessary.

FRED's job is to take readings from the air hose and communicate via radio to the engine what the pressure is. It communicates this data similar to a modem over a phone line, through encoded data signals. Many railfans will program the FRED frequencies into their scanners to pick up freight trains that might not be calling signals. The FRED will chirp every minute or so, or anytime there is a change in the air pressure. This information is displayed in the cab on the computer screen (or on a box in older engines without computer displays). Since the Auto Carriers on Auto Train are essentially freight cars they do require a FRED.

The only other cable present on some passenger trains may be an MU cable. If a train is going to operate in push-pull (Keystone, Vermonter, Shuttles, San Joaquin, Capitol Corridor, Surfliner, etc.) there will be an MU cable. This carries the information from a cab-car/engine to the engine on the rear of the train for things like throttle, air brakes, etc.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 15, 2008)

Chatter163 said:


> > Let me also point out that the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLES on windows are not curtain pulls. On a recent southbound Surfliner some female twit was bothered by the sun, said "Let's lower the curtain," and yanked on the RED EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE.
> 
> 
> Oh, please, that old "passenger thought it was the window shade/curtain" canard has been around forever. The handle is nowhere near the window, and this tired old urban legend has been around the track more times than anyone can remember. Let's not repat it here.


Scroll up in this thread, Mr. or Ms. Skeptic, and click on the links that show it's no urban legend. A weak mind is a terrible thing.


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## bmorechris (Dec 15, 2008)

Kevin L. said:


> Provided that the brake provides enough force to lock the wheels, the weight of the train does not have a direct impact on stopping distance.
> The distribution of mass has an effect, as it changes the all important center of mass.
> 
> For more information:http://crpit.com/confpapers/CRPITV3Barney.pdf . *Herein, the difference between the 2 levels of brake force are used to ensure that the wheel locks, which is still the fastest way to stop a rolling wheel in ideal conditions.*
> ...


I lurk here a lot but don't really post, but I don't think locking wheels is the fastest way to stop.

To maximize braking force, you want to maximize the coefficient of friction (COF) between the two surfaces. There are two COFs for every material pair (in this case, steel on steel); the static COF and the kinetic COF. The static COF is for two objects touching each other but not sliding (a rolling wheel), and the kinetic COF is for two objects in contact but sliding (locked wheel). The static COF is always higher than the kinetic COF. For steel, the commonly accepted values are 0.7 for the static COF and 0.6 for the kinetic COF. (Source) You calculate your friction force by multiplying the COF times the vertical force, in this case the weight of the railcar. The coefficient of friction is basically the percentage of the vertical force (weight) that can be transfered to a horizontal force to restrict the relative motion of between two objects.

Assuming a weight for a superliner coach of 148,000 lbs (via wikipedia), the maximum possible friction force, in this case the force slowing the railcar, for the wheels braking but still rotating is:

Ffs = COPs x Weight -> 0.7 x 148000 = 103600 lbs

and for all wheels sliding would be:

Ffk = COPk x Weight -> 0.6 x 148000 = 88800 lbs

This calculation, although simplified, shows that you can generate a higher braking force if you do not lock the wheels. The same holds true for acceleration, you want to eliminate wheel slip to maximize cohesion (friction again!) and acceleration. Braking is just the same, but deceleration. This is the reason that cars have anti-lock brakes, they keep the tire from sliding to maximize the coefficient of friction between the tire and road. If there is a reason with railcars that this does not hold true, I would be interested in hearing, but I believe this should hold true for any rolling wheel and solid surface.


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## Tony (Dec 15, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I certainly think that if one can find a crew member quickly, letting the crew handle things is the right plan.
> If I were at the back of the last car of a train, and there was a fire in that car that was spreading towards the rear of the train that looked likely to engulf me in flames within the next minute, and the fire was preventing me from safely reaching any crew member, it is not clear to me that jumping from a moving train or just waiting to be engulfed by the flames would be a better choice than forcing the train to stop.


Again, I would find it difficult to imagine that with such a fire, that not one single Amtrak crew member would be aware of it. It is not that you personally need to find a crew member, just that a crew member is aware of the emergency, and will implement the actions they were trained to implement.

If we are inventing scenarios, I could venture one where pulling the cord would cause several people to fall, hitting their heads, and becoming unconscious. It isn't easy escaping an emergency, nor to follow crew member's instructions, if you are uncounsious.


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## PetalumaLoco (Dec 15, 2008)

bmorechris said:


> I lurk here a lot but don't really post, but I don't think locking wheels is the fastest way to stop....


Thanks for explaining. As a motorcyclist I hear all the time the "I laid the bike down to stop" fallacy, or "locked up the rear end" story and wince every time.


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2008)

bmorechris said:


> This calculation, although simplified, shows that you can generate a higher braking force if you do not lock the wheels. The same holds true for acceleration, you want to eliminate wheel slip to maximize cohesion (friction again!) and acceleration. Braking is just the same, but deceleration.


You also want to avoid either situation, locked wheels or wheel slip, as much as possible as both cause flat spots on the wheels and can damage the rails too.


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## George Harris (Dec 15, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> bmorechris said:
> 
> 
> > I lurk here a lot but don't really post, but I don't think locking wheels is the fastest way to stop....
> ...


Motorcyclist: I think the honest statement would be more like, "I unintentionally laid the bike over and therefore slid to a stop, donating considerably skin to the street in the process."

Actually, for rail wheels, a locked wheels emergency brake stop may end up being faster because you develop flat spots on the wheels which increases your area of contact. Not really a good thing unless you make you money running the wheel lathe.

Alan: generally wheel spin will not give you flat spots on the wheels, but it can give metallurgical damage. It will give you "wheel burns" on the rail head, which if not ground down will quite commonly result in rail breaks, maybe not initially, but ultimately.


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## bmorechris (Dec 15, 2008)

George Harris said:


> Motorcyclist: I think the honest statement would be more like, "I unintentionally laid the bike over and therefore slid to a stop, donating considerably skin to the street in the process."
> Actually, for rail wheels, a locked wheels emergency brake stop may end up being faster because you develop flat spots on the wheels which increases your area of contact. Not really a good thing unless you make you money running the wheel lathe.
> 
> Alan: generally wheel spin will not give you flat spots on the wheels, but it can give metallurgical damage. It will give you "wheel burns" on the rail head, which if not ground down will quite commonly result in rail breaks, maybe not initially, but ultimately.


last engineering note of the day:

I will mention that, at least theoretically, contact area has no bearing on friction force. In practice that might not always be true, because you may not have perfect contact which is assumed in the calculation. So, it may end up being a crap shoot which is actually better for braking performance.

Also, if you check out the graph at this link its shows a graph of coefficient of friction (vertical axis) vs. applied force (horizontal axis, and in this case, braking force)

The diagonal line represents the static coefficient of friction, which increases with braking (applied) force. The end of that line where it drops down (marked fl on this graph) represents the moment of wheel lock and slipping. The horizontal line to the right represents the kinetic (slipping) coefficient of friction, which is constant. It shows that as your braking force increases, so does your coefficient of friction as long as the wheels are rolling. You only get the benefit of increased braking ability if you can control the brakes to a degree that you are able to get above the horizontal static coefficient of friction line (fk on this graph). You really want to be right at the point before the line drops down; you realize maximum braking ability at impending wheel lock. ABS systems in cars keep your wheels right at this point on the graph.

I imagine a skilled engineer is able to feel when they are getting to that frictional limit, and can module the brake pressure to keep the wheels rolling in normal conditions.

I think thats enough engineering fun for one day!

edited to add: engineering fun is an oxymoron!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 15, 2008)

After the cord is pulled and stopped, how long does it take before they can get moving again?


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 15, 2008)

bmorechris said:


> I lurk here a lot but don't really post


Hope you'll add more posting to your lurking. While I'd never claim to understand all the technical stuff you've provided, I do get enough of it to be better informed about the principles involved, and that's always good.


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## Chatter163 (Dec 15, 2008)

> Scroll up in this thread, Mr. or Ms. Skeptic, and click on the links that show it's no urban legend. A weak mind is a terrible thing.


My apologies, and I stand corrected. I did not read the OP correctly.


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## blueman271 (Dec 15, 2008)

Just out of curiousity, what amount of pressure is the air used to apply the airbrakes pressurized too?


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 15, 2008)

blueman271 said:


> Just out of curiousity, what amount of pressure is the air used to apply the airbrakes pressurized too?


This seems to be a pretty good overview, and hopefully answers the question:

Train Air Brake Description and History

It does not include the latest development, which is a system whereby all brakes on a train are activated simultaneously.

EDIT: The catch with the new system is that the entire train - locomotives and all cars - must be equipped with it. Otherwise no go.


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## had8ley (Dec 15, 2008)

blueman271 said:


> Just out of curiousity, what amount of pressure is the air used to apply the airbrakes pressurized too?


Are you talking freight, pax or both? Most freight trains are 90 psi while I believe Amtrak runs in the 110-120 psi range. We had a fellow run up the feed valve on a freight train as a joke to 120 psi and air hoses started popping throughout his train. His conductor was not a happy camper as he had to bleed down the entire train while changing air hoses. And one notation~ it is the LACK of air that sets up the brakes. You charge the train line to a certain psi and then draw down from that point to set your brakes.


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## Nickrapak (Dec 15, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > You should only pull the cord if someone is caught in the door and being dragged.
> ...



IIRC, One passenger noticed the wheel sticking through the floor, and was going to pull the emergency brake, but was warned against it by the conductor.


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 15, 2008)

bmorechris said:


> I lurk here a lot but don't really post, but I don't think locking wheels is the fastest way to stop.


Googling around, I ran into this, which may be of particular interest to our engineering-inclined friends as well as others. The website is called Patent Storm.

US Patent 5109343 - Method and apparatus for verification of rail braking distances

Registration is necessary to view the full PDF file, but I've taken care of that for AU folks:

Username: IdiotPatrick

Password: 5-4baby3-2-1

Password is a countdown that was used in punk rocker days to start songs. As opposed to 1-2-3-4... Neither username nor password bear any resemblance to anything I actually use, so no sweat on that score.

May be very slow to load. Patience. Even as a layman I think it's a very interesting document, though of course I'm in no position to judge its professional merits.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 16, 2008)

Nickrapak said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


and the "its company police not to stop the train until the conductor as investigated the problem" held up in court as the crew on the train were charged with murder or something.


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## engine999 (Dec 16, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> To elaborate on what Alan said, a train that is only running with passenger cars does not need a FRED. In between each car and the engines there are a few cables/connections. One of these is obviously the air hose that allows the brake system to operate (every railroad car, freight or passenger has this). The others that are passenger train specific are the HEP jumpers and the COMM cable. The HEP jumpers provide electricity to the train generated by the locomotive. The COMM cable communicates between each car and lets the computer on the engine know that everything is functioning with it (Miami Joe, wherever he is, or Dutch could probably provide more insight on this). But I do know that having this cable makes it so that the FRED isn't necessary.
> FRED's job is to take readings from the air hose and communicate via radio to the engine what the pressure is. It communicates this data similar to a modem over a phone line, through encoded data signals. Many railfans will program the FRED frequencies into their scanners to pick up freight trains that might not be calling signals. The FRED will chirp every minute or so, or anytime there is a change in the air pressure. This information is displayed in the cab on the computer screen (or on a box in older engines without computer displays). Since the Auto Carriers on Auto Train are essentially freight cars they do require a FRED.
> 
> The only other cable present on some passenger trains may be an MU cable. If a train is going to operate in push-pull (Keystone, Vermonter, Shuttles, San Joaquin, Capitol Corridor, Surfliner, etc.) there will be an MU cable. This carries the information from a cab-car/engine to the engine on the rear of the train for things like throttle, air brakes, etc.


There are actually generally two air hoses between passenger cars, the standard brake pipe and a main reservoir cable from the locomotives. The End Of Train device provides the engineer with a brake pipe reading on the rear of the train, the ability to trigger an emergency application of the brakes from the rear of the train and serves as a marker.

The difference between an emergency and service application of the train’s brakes is determined by the rate of reduction of the brake pipe. An emergency application is, I believe 120% of the standard maximum application. After an emergency application is triggered, power developed by the locomotives to the wheels automatically is eliminated due to a Pneumatic Control Switch. Only after a train is stopped can the brakes be recovered and power sent to the traction motors.

Alan's mention of the back-up hose is not required to terminate the brake pipe. Each car is equipped with an angle **** which can be closed like a spigot allowing pressure on the train line to build. The back up hose provides an audible warning signal and the ability to trigger an emergency brake pipe application at the rear of the train for shoving moves.


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## trainfan (Dec 16, 2008)

Wow!! This is is quite the thread!!! I think I will ask the conductor On the EB when I ride in March " Where the

emergency cord is (just in case) " Then see what his reaction is :lol:

Since I started this thread You can pull the cord anytime!!!! 

Thanks for the responce!!

Trainfan


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## sky12065 (Dec 16, 2008)

trainfan said:


> Wow!! This is is quite the thread!!! I think I will ask the conductor On the EB when I ride in March " Where theemergency cord is (just in case) " Then see what his reaction is
> 
> Trainfan


Just post the location where your going to ask and when you're going to ask so you can arrange with another RF on this forum to rescue you when you get kicked off the train! :huh: ..... :lol:


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 17, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> Nickrapak said:
> 
> 
> > Joel N. Weber II said:
> ...


::In German::

"Manager, there is a wheel sticking through the floor in our car."

How do you think that would have gone over? My reaction would have been to ask if the guy had been drinking.


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## VentureForth (Dec 17, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Actually it is black and white. By law you cannot pull that cord for any of the reasons listed...


If I were on board a train that was running cab car forward and I was sitting in the front and I saw the engineer run a red signal, I wouldn't wait 22 seconds to find the conductor if the engineer wouldn't respond to my banging on his window. I'd pull the cord before running head first into another train and answer questions later.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 17, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it is black and white. By law you cannot pull that cord for any of the reasons listed...
> ...


How sure are you that signal was red?


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## VentureForth (Dec 17, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


I'm not referring to any specific incident. Just a hypothetical.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 17, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


I'm aware.

But again, your eye isn't trained. How sure are you that signal was red?

I could have sworn I've been on the CL and they ran reds, but I'm still here. Eyes play tricks on you, especially when you dont have training.


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## Ryan (Dec 17, 2008)

Presumably by looking out the front window.


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## George Harris (Dec 17, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


How would you know:

If multiple signal heads, which one applies to the train you are on?

If a single, whether the engineer has been told it is malfunctioning and the signal is to be regarded as suspended and he has manual block or train order clearance to pass it?

Some other reason I can't even think of?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 17, 2008)

George Harris said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Exactly, and signals can differ somewhat railway to railway. Last years incidente with the Pere demonstrated that even trained professionals can mistake signals...

Simply put: If you're pulling the emergency brake you're risking derailing the cars at full speed. Which is why, as Alan said, its best function is if the train is moving when people are trying to get on or detrain or are being dragged.


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## frj1983 (Dec 17, 2008)

I might add that when a Metra Train leaves the Aurora Station to begin it's journey to Chicago, the signal changes to green, but as the cab control car passes the signal it changes to red. So if I'm sitting back 3 cars, I would see a red signal, but not know the green was given to start. Should I panic and pull the chord? My panic would be fueled by a wrong conclusion!

Just a thought. B)


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 17, 2008)

*Yanks trainfan's emergency brake handle*


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## trainfan (Dec 17, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


I have noticed that a signal will change almost as soon as the engine or cabcar passes , so if you are several

cars back it could be red>

Trainfan


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## gswager (Dec 17, 2008)

trainfan said:


> I have noticed that a signal will change almost as soon as the engine or cabcar passes , so if you are severalcars back it could be red>
> 
> Trainfan


I seconded that. I'm definitely sure that the signal ahead of locomotive is either yellow or green. Once the loco has pased by the signal tower, it turned to red.


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## VentureForth (Dec 18, 2008)

Well, I understand all of that. But in a situation where you're riding in the cab car, you're looking out the front window, and the engineer approaches a red at speed, would it be worth the fine?

I know that Amtrak has a rule that no matter if the host railroad has an order out saying that you can pass a red because it's not hooked up or its new or for whatever reason, Amtrak has to stop at every red or non-illuminated signal, and get clearance.

When I lived in Los Lunas, NM, and they were installing signals for the Railrunner, this was happening. There were two red lights about a 1/4 mile apart. There was a BNSF signal man I was talking to when Amtrak came through. They stopped at both. Couldn't be cleared to go through both at once - had to happen one at a time. Stop. Verify the switch. Get clearance. Proceed with caution to the next block.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 18, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> Well, I understand all of that. But in a situation where you're riding in the cab car, you're looking out the front window, and the engineer approaches a red at speed, would it be worth the fine?
> I know that Amtrak has a rule that no matter if the host railroad has an order out saying that you can pass a red because it's not hooked up or its new or for whatever reason, Amtrak has to stop at every red or non-illuminated signal, and get clearance.
> 
> When I lived in Los Lunas, NM, and they were installing signals for the Railrunner, this was happening. There were two red lights about a 1/4 mile apart. There was a BNSF signal man I was talking to when Amtrak came through. They stopped at both. Couldn't be cleared to go through both at once - had to happen one at a time. Stop. Verify the switch. Get clearance. Proceed with caution to the next block.


And what if the engineer has received notice from dispatch to ignore the signal?

Would you risk derailing the train on a hunch like that?


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## VentureForth (Dec 18, 2008)

I don't think that pulling the emergency cord would really risk derailing the train to the extent that it would be more unsafe to not pull it. As mentioned early on in this thread, it lets the air go. Train stops, but not instantaneously. There would have to be a lot of things set wrong in the chain of events to a train to derail in emergency.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 18, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> I don't think that pulling the emergency cord would really risk derailing the train to the extent that it would be more unsafe to not pull it. As mentioned early on in this thread, it lets the air go. Train stops, but not instantaneously. There would have to be a lot of things set wrong in the chain of events to a train to derail in emergency.


Not so, any time a train goes into emergency at speed a derailment is very possible for a variety of reasons. This is more so on frieght trains then passenger trains but still. This kind of reminds me of a kid being told not to do something over and over again "but mom what if this happens, or this" bottom line is the Emergency brake is on the train for the Train Crew to use in a real legitimate emergency. The emergency brakes should never be pulled by a passenger ever under any circumstances.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Dec 18, 2008)

TVRM610 said:


> This kind of reminds me of a kid being told not to do something over and over again "but mom what if this happens, or this" bottom line is the Emergency brake is on the train for the Train Crew to use in a real legitimate emergency. The emergency brakes should never be pulled by a passenger ever under any circumstances.



This is the number one point right here!!!!

OBS gone freight...


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Dec 18, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> Well, I understand all of that. But in a situation where you're riding in the cab car, you're looking out the front window, and the engineer approaches a red at speed, would it be worth the fine?I know that Amtrak has a rule that no matter if the host railroad has an order out saying that you can pass a red because it's not hooked up or its new or for whatever reason, Amtrak has to stop at every red or non-illuminated signal, and get clearance.



Here's a question for you. Using your example as the scenario, you happen to see that very signal which is red! Do you know for sure that is actually your train's signal? Probably not! Here's something (one of many things) you should be mindful of. Even us employees have to be careful to make sure that a signal which is displayed is actually the aspect intended for our train on the track we are on! You could be in multiple track territory and see such a signal which you might think it is your's but it really isn't (it may be a signal governing another track)! We have places in my territory where (in this example we are on the main track) we will see the signal governing the main track, proceed or stop (depending on that signal's indication), and then be able to see the signal for the other main track, siding, etc shortly after we pass the first one which happened to be our actual signal!

This is why you let us (the employees) run the railroad, and take care of our assigned train. We are the ones who are responsible for our train, it's passengers or freight (depending on which one). There are even rules we must follow in the event of an incident where we must protect other tracks (to signal or flag nearby trains) in the unfortunate event of such an incident! As a matter of fact, there is another thread on here regarding an Amtrak train and a TriRail train down in South FL which is a direct result when crews don't follow the rules properly!

OBS gone freight...


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## AlanB (Dec 18, 2008)

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I understand all of that. But in a situation where you're riding in the cab car, you're looking out the front window, and the engineer approaches a red at speed, would it be worth the fine?I know that Amtrak has a rule that no matter if the host railroad has an order out saying that you can pass a red because it's not hooked up or its new or for whatever reason, Amtrak has to stop at every red or non-illuminated signal, and get clearance.
> ...


I'll give you another one. Here in the NYC subway system we have something known as grade timing signals. These are signals usually on a big hill or right before a sharp curve that remain red after a train passes. That of course means that the signal ahead is yellow and the one before that green. When the next train passes the green signal, it starts a timer running on the red signal. That time counts down a predetermined number of seconds, basically the amount of time that should be needed to cover the distance between the signals at the speed that they want to enforce.

If the motorman runs slower, then often times by the time he reaches the yellow signal, it's already gone green because the red signal has been upgraded by the timer to green also. However a good motorman can handle his train in such a way that he/she passes the yellow signal at the correct track speed minus a mile or two and is half way to the red signal before the timer releases it and upgrades it to green.

If you had seen him blow by the yellow and panicked pulling the emergency cord, you would have unnecessarily put the train into emergency and would now be facing jail time.

I'll say it again and I can't make it any clearer, except if you see someone being dragged by a train because they're stuck in a door, you never, ever pull the emergency cord. This is not an option; this is not for you to decide; *IT IS THE LAW*.

A federal one too, so you’ll be doing federal time.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Dec 18, 2008)

AlanB said:


> I'll say it again and I can't make it any clearer, except if you see someone being dragged by a train because they're stuck in a door, you never, ever pull the emergency cord. This is not an option; this is not for you to decide; *IT IS THE LAW*.
> A federal one too, so you’ll be doing federal time.



Well said, Alan....

Merry Christmas to ya....

OBS gone freight...


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## the Other Mike (Dec 18, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it is black and white. By law you cannot pull that cord for any of the reasons listed...
> ...


and you could be mistaken for a terriost and shot on sight by any HS agent on the train.

since we're playing "what if' .................


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## sky12065 (Dec 18, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> and you could be mistaken for a terriost and shot on sight by any HS agent on the train.
> since we're playing "what if' .................


Or you could be tazed :wacko: ... unless o course you're wearing your "Don't Taze Me Bro" T-shirt!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 18, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Scary thought-- we gave Amtrak Special Agent Pat a gun. :blink:


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 18, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Scary thought-- we gave Amtrak Special Agent Pat a gun.


May seem odd, ALC, but reading your post is the first time it ever occured to me that Pat might have been armed. I guess just not something that crossed my mind, given the absence of a uniform.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 18, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Scary thought-- we gave Amtrak Special Agent Pat a gun.
> ...


I would bet my tickets to NYP that he was armed...


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## AlanB (Dec 18, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Yeah, one dangles from each shoulder. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## MattW (Dec 18, 2008)

But the term "armed" implies an ability to cause harm... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 19, 2008)

BTW, I've been informed from a very reliable source that Amtrak Special Agent Pat is in fact Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I had speculated that he might have been some kind of impostor geek, but apparently he was on the level regarding his Amtrak employment status. For what little that's worth.

Haven't said this before, but I seem to recall that the clown's (Bozo's?) middle initial on his official ID was W. I thought at the time that that explained a lot, and expected to be hauled off to Gitmo for taking Amtrak pictures.

But as for being armed, I just couldn't picture such a sleazy little runt even knowing how to handle a weapon. Never entered my mind, and all I wanted was to be rid of the idiot and head up to get a window seat.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 19, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> BTW, I've been informed from a very reliable source that Amtrak Special Agent Pat is in fact Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I had speculated that he might have been some kind of impostor geek, but apparently he was on the level regarding his Amtrak employment status. For what little that's worth.
> Haven't said this before, but I seem to recall that the clown's (Bozo's?) middle initial on his official ID was W. I thought at the time that that explained a lot, and expected to be hauled off to Gitmo for taking Amtrak pictures.
> 
> But as for being armed, I just couldn't picture such a sleazy little runt even knowing how to handle a weapon. Never entered my mind, and all I wanted was to be rid of the idiot and head up to get a window seat.


He may have been charged with a pea shooter.


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## trainfan (Dec 19, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> BTW, I've been informed from a very reliable source that Amtrak Special Agent Pat is in fact Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I had speculated that he might have been some kind of impostor geek, but apparently he was on the level regarding his Amtrak employment status. For what little that's worth.
> Haven't said this before, but I seem to recall that the clown's (Bozo's?) middle initial on his official ID was W. I thought at the time that that explained a lot, and expected to be hauled off to Gitmo for taking Amtrak pictures.
> 
> But as for being armed, I just couldn't picture such a sleazy little runt even knowing how to handle a weapon. Never entered my mind, and all I wanted was to be rid of the idiot and head up to get a window seat.


If you see him again ( Special Agent Pat) Ask him where the "Emergency Cord " Is!!! :lol:

Trainfan


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## sky12065 (Dec 19, 2008)

trainfan said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I've been informed from a very reliable source that Amtrak Special Agent Pat is in fact Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I had speculated that he might have been some kind of impostor geek, but apparently he was on the level regarding his Amtrak employment status. For what little that's worth.
> ...


Be careful with that kind of statement Trainfan! If the emergency cord winds up around Patrick's neck, you just might leave yourself open to be charged as an accomplice! :unsure:


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