# SEPTA's 'Doomsday Plan'



## The Davy Crockett

(From this article at Philly.com)



> SEPTA MAY be forced to eliminate service on nine of its 13 rail lines, shorten two other lines, scrap express subway service and convert all trolley routes to bus routes by 2023 without an infusion of funding from the state, the agency's general manager said yesterday as he outlined a doomsday plan.



It might be posturing, but nevertheless, he said the system needs $6.5 Billion over the next 10 years to bring it to a "state of good repair" or



> Without it, he said, SEPTA would end service on the Cynwyd line in 2014, the Media/Elwyn line in 2015 and the Chestnut Hill West line in 2018. Six more lines would be eliminated or shortened by 2023. Under the plan, SEPTA would also get rid of the Broad-Ridge Spur subway and all express subway service.
> 
> After debating three plans to increase funding for bridges and mass transit this year, state lawmakers whiffed on all three before summer recess.


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## AmtrakBlue

And the Wilm/Newark service is also threatened. I only saw the headline since I don't pay to read the NewsJournal/DelawareOnline.


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## Acela150

Why am I NOT surprised by this??


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## The Davy Crockett

Acela150 said:


> Why am I NOT surprised by this??


Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?


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## Swadian Hardcore

What's going to happen to all the infrastructure if all this gets cut? What are the two Regional Rail routes that aren't at htreat of shutdown? I'm thinking Throndale and Trenton? Maybe Norristown, maybe somethings else?


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## MikefromCrete

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MikefromCrete said:


> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.


Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.


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## Acela150

The Davy Crockett said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I NOT surprised by this??
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Click to expand...

Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.


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## Eric S

It's worth mentioning that SEPTA recorded its highest ridership in something like 20 years, including its highest ever Regional Rail ridership, in the last year (not sure exactly what 12 month period that included).


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## Nathanael

The Davy Crockett said:


> (From this article at Philly.com)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEPTA MAY be forced to eliminate service on nine of its 13 rail lines, shorten two other lines, scrap express subway service and convert all trolley routes to bus routes by 2023 without an infusion of funding from the state, the agency's general manager said yesterday as he outlined a doomsday plan.
> 
> 
> 
> The posturing is offensive for a very specific reason. If SEPTA's budget is tight, the correct thing to do -- from the point of view of improving SEPTA's budget balance -- is to scrap the BUS SERVICES. The rail services are more financially viable than the bus services, generally speaking.
Click to expand...

SEPTA has wanted to get rid of the Cynwyd line and the Broad-Ridge Spur for a while, so those might actually happen. Threatening Media and Elwyn is pure posturing to try to get people to call their state legislators.


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## Nathanael

Meh, please fix my quoting fail.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Acela150 said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I NOT surprised by this??
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
Click to expand...

I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.


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## Acela150

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I NOT surprised by this??
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
Click to expand...

I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.

But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Acela150 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I NOT surprised by this??
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.
> 
> But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.
Click to expand...

Good to hear that Regional Rail is doing well during the peak hours. I'm not sure was SRO means, I'm assuming it means the train was extremly full. Never ridden a Silver V, from pics they look uncomfortable. CHW is a really short line, seems like the shortest of all the lines. I've ridden all the Regional Rail lines except Warminster. In the 1980s when I lived in Philadelphia, I rode R7 Trenton the most, plus a bunch of R6 Norristown, R5 Thorndale, and R3 Media/Elwyn. back in the old days of R-numbers. Do they still have the really long Thorndale-Doyestown through trains?


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## AmtrakBlue

SRO - Standing Room Only


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## Acela150

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I NOT surprised by this??
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.
> 
> But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do they still have the really long Thorndale-Doyestown through trains?
Click to expand...

Yup..


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## Anderson

*sighs*
And the two angles of public transit fares/support strike again. On the one hand, I get the desire for low fares, but on the other there's the mess of political will and what have you. The other point that comes to mind is that if trains are running either SRO or close to it, if you can't increase available equipment it becomes time to look at fare hikes as a method of demand management (and/or running a cheaper-but-slower bus service in concert with the rail service).

Also, in all seriousness, what _does_ the fare history of SEPTA look like? I ask because a 100% increase in fares may be a lot, but if it's over 5 years vs. 15 makes a _big_ difference (the former indicates a 14% annualized rate of increase; the latter 4.67%).


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## jis

One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.

In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.

Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.


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## fairviewroad

MikefromCrete said:


> None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.


"Most" of the commuter lines will survive, but to say "none of this will actually happen" is a bit optimistic. Just compare an early 1980's SEPTA map

with the present day SEPTA map. Gone are extensions to Parkesburg, Pottstown, Quakertown, Newtown, Manayunk, and West Chester. The only new

service is the Airport Line (doesn't really serve commuters), the extension to Newark, DE and of course the downtown tunnel between Penn Center/

Suburban Station and Market East/Reading Terminal.

So yes, the SEPTA regional rail map can and does shrink over the years. Obviously if the Cynwyd line is axed it won't be a huge loss, but I wouldn't

just assume everything else will be saved. And yeah, if these types of doomsday prophecies gets people to call their lawmakers, then good! Elected

officials need to hear about service that matters.


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## Brystar41

Hello everybody i know i haven't been on this forum for sometime but here are my 2 cents on this.

I seriously don't want this to happen millions and billions of people who rely on SEPTA will be in deep trouble because SEPTA cannot provide a public service which is vastly needed, the thing is that Philly is a City that strives on Public Transport and SEPTA cutting services like that hurting people's chances to go to work, to school, etc, is heart breaking.

also Philly is a City that strives on its Railroad history and culture such as what once was the Mighty Pennsy and Reading Railroads, that i am amazed that the infrastructure is still there that SEPTA, Amtrak and NJT currently uses.

Why take the RR's away if Rail is a very efficent mode of Transport and not only that but taking away the airport line is stupid as heck, many places around the US and the world have and is building Rail lines to and from the airport and the city center.

when i was in philly i took the airport line to catch a flight to go home to Miami, FL and i am thankful for the airport line, it makes me feel sad and mad that this is happening, since when was public transit profitable, its a public service and yes profit does run but most important is its customers.

the freeways aren't the only way to get around Philly, also how is SEPTA doing this if i see SEPTA is improving with the bridgeport upgrade, wayne junction upgrade, delivery of Silverliner V's and other stuffs.

Could another agency handle the regional rail network and maybe SEPTA can be in charge of the streetcars, subways and buses?


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## cirdan

jis said:


> One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.
> 
> In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.
> 
> Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.


 Thanks for that interesting insight.

I guess that if you run a service properly, passengers will come. I'm not in favor of fare hikes in general but I do see that improved farebox recoveries are important. Not least because they make commuter agencies more autonomous and less exposed to the whims of politicians who demand more service one day and then threaten to slash funding the next.


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## The Davy Crockett

Philly.com has an article which is related to the financial situation SEPTA finds itself in. PA Sen. Bob Casey held a news conference at 30th St. Station, with SEPTA's GM and Montgomery Co. Commissioner Josh Shapiro by his sides where he said the federal gas tax should be raised from the current 18.4 cents, a level it has been at for the last twenty years.

From the article:



> "Careening from one short-term transportation bill to another has increased uncertainty for agencies like SEPTA," Casey said. "Congress should begin work now on a long-term transportation bill that allows public agencies to plan into the future."



And:



> Most of SEPTA's subsidy for operating costs comes from the state ($595 million this year), while most of its capital funding, for such things as new vehicles and bridge replacement, comes from the federal government ($187 million this year).
> 
> "As transit agencies face shrinking contributions from states and municipalities, we need to provide consistent funding," Casey said in a letter Monday to House and Senate leaders. "Failure to do so could result in cuts to routes that commuters depend upon and, ultimately, job losses."
> 
> Casey wrote that without more money, the Highway Trust Fund, which pays for roads, bridges and mass transit, "will become insolvent by 2015," costing Pennsylvania tens of thousands of jobs.


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.
> 
> In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.
> 
> Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.


NJT seems pretty stupid right now. They're running cummuter buses parallel to rail routes. They buy huge MCI D4500 and smaller D4000 buses (same model as Greyhound) with reclining seats and charge less than a train. They're running lots of redundant routes like to Wayne, Perth Amboy, and others. Then they go stupid and buy from DesignLine, a manufacturer that has never built such large equipment before. Now DesignLine has filed for bankruptcy and their order has been suspended. Now NJT dosen't know what to do.

Plus, they're buying a bunch of NABI buses which are known for terrible reliability, pretty much the transit likes of Van Hool or Dina. Then these get postponed into service and start breaking down a lot more than the RTS or Flxible Metro they replaced. The D4000s are redundant when their role can be met by suburban RTS buses that are cheaper, more efficient, and offer the same service.

What NJT _should_ have done was to focus on building up their rail network, adding new RTS transit buses to support these routes by branching from rail stations, and maybe adding some D4500s on express routes not served by rail (like to Atlantic City or Cape May/Wildwood).

I know there's going to be disagreement, but duplicating Comet commuter cars with D4500s on the same route dosen't sound right.


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## afigg

It appears that SEPTA will not have to enact their doomsday plan, although it is not clear whether SEPTA will be getting enough funding under the passed House bill to cover all its capital needs. After a major battle in the PA House, including a vote on Monday that failed to pass the gas tax increase and transportation bill, the PA House passed a transportation bill tonight. Some serious backroom haggling and deals I'm sure.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazettte: Pa. House passes transportation funding bill.



> HARRISBURG -- A major transportation funding package passed a key House vote tonight, one day after it appeared opposition by Republicans to raising revenues and by Democrats to changes in wage rules could sink the bill.
> 
> The plan to provide new annual funding for the state's roads, bridges and public transit systems was approved 104-95. It still must win final passage from the House and the Senate, which in June approved a funding package without a House provision lifting the threshold at which public projects must pay union-level wages.


The State Senate will still have to pass the House bill or amend it which would get sent back to the House. So the transportation bill is not out of the woods yet, but it got through the PA House which was considered the toughest part by far.

If PA can get the bill passed and signed into law, it will join VA, MD, MA as the eastern states that raised or modified gas taxes and fees this year to fix their transportation funding shortfalls. Which will mean more state funding for their transit systems and Amtrak passenger rail projects.

BTW, saw several reports that SEPTA is looking to place an order for up to 10 ACS-64s to replace their AEM-7s, but that the order was entirely contingent on the state passing a transportation bill providing more capital funds to SEPTA.


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## afigg

More info on the status of the transportation bill in the Philadelphia Inquirer: Pa. House OKs transportation bill it rejected a day earlier. The bill has to be passed by the Senate and then the House again, so the deal could still fall apart. If it does pass, it means that SEPTA can step back from the cliff. It would also mean PennDOT and SEPTA will have more money to work with Amtrak on Keystone corridor and NEC upgrades. Excerpt from the article:



> SEPTA officials applauded the vote, which would avert the adoption of the "doomsday budget" that could mean rail-line closures. "We're just thrilled. . . . It's long overdue, and it looks like we finally are going to be able to address some of the issues we need to deal with," said Joseph M. Casey, SEPTA's general manager.
> 
> Casey said SEPTA expected to get about $340 million a year of the roughly $475 million earmarked for public transit in the House measure, and he said SEPTA would move immediately to begin working on bridges and power substations that have been on the brink of failure.
> 
> "We have about $500 million worth of desperately needed projects that are ready to go and that will hit the streets within six months," Casey said.


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## afigg

The transportation funding bill was passed by the state Senate and House and will be signed by the Governor early next week. So SEPTA can put away the doomsday plan and instead pull out the maintenance, repair, and system expansion project plans.

The bill, BTW, includes up to $144 million a year for "multimodal" projects which include airports, rail, pedestrian, and bike path projects. While I would expect airport authorities will go the money, there should be more money available for Keystone corridor upgrades.


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## Nathanael

"Multimodal" is a vague term, but it's possible SEPTA might be able to land some of it for the various planned rail/bus transfer stations.

Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!

Pittsburgh's T has been in retrenchment mode, and this should help it out a lot too.


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## AlanB

Nathanael said:


> Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!


Except for the 15 line, whose PCC's were extensively rebuilt, all other lines use LRV's.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.


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## fairviewroad

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.


Other than nostalgia reasons, there would be no point (IMO) in replacing the Subway Surface cars with

PCC's. The current Kawasaki cars are reliable workhorses that have been plying the streets for more than

three decades. They're not pretty, but they're a staple in west/southwest Philadelphia and I'd imagine that

people who use them are probably more attached to them than to PCC cars, which are several generations

removed for most people by now. I rode those Kawasaki cars every day for 4 years when I lived in Philly

in the 90's. Never once had one break down on me.

Edit to add: I can't speak to their more recent reliability...I still manage to sneak in a ride once or twice a year,

but certainly don't have the day in, day out experience like I used to. But considering that three of those subway-surface

routes operate 24/7, the Kawasaki cars have more than proved their worth.


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## afigg

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why don't they put PCC's back onto the Subway Surface routes? They're fast, reliable vehicles.


Why would SEPTA do that? Much better use of money to buy new rolling stock if they have the funds available. If they are restoring service to Trolley routes 23 and 56 with a substantial investment in improvements, they may have to procure ADA compliant equipment depending on the regulations on ADA compliance regarding restoration of service after so many years of buses. Better to get modern equipment.

The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (64 page PDF) has the restorations of trolley routes 23 and 56 listed in the unfunded capital needs section with estimates of $189 million for infrastructure improvements and $130 million for purchase of new vehicles. The unfunded capital needs through FY2025 total $4.1 billion, so the additional state funding will be put to use to address the long core capital project list.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I grew up in West Philadelphia and back then the Kawasaki trolleys were new. They worked but they weren't very comfortable. The old PCC's were more comfortable and they wouldn't have broken down so much if SEPTA had actually maintained them.

If they choose to buy modern LRV's, at least buy something that's decently fast and comfortable. Low-floor LRV's are horrors to ride, they feel like riding in a huge bathtub. Get high-floors with wheelchair lifts instead.

Besides, SEPTA has all those PCC's in storage, why not make some use out of them?

And WMATA is going all-out stupid with their "streetcar" project, using low-floor vehicles at only 30 mph out to the 'burbs! Dumb planners! Don't expect me to ride!


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## Eric S

Isn't the trend (almost everywhere) in non-heavy rail transit (so including light rail, streetcar, and hybrids of the two, but excluding subway/metro) to move to low-floor vehicles and away from high-floor vehicles? I believe that this is indeed the case. Evidently ramps from low-floor vehicles are more reliable/easier to maintain than lifts from high-floor vehicles. And, boarding/de-boarding is quicker with low-floor vehicles.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> Isn't the trend (almost everywhere) in non-heavy rail transit (so including light rail, streetcar, and hybrids of the two, but excluding subway/metro) to move to low-floor vehicles and away from high-floor vehicles? I believe that this is indeed the case. Evidently ramps from low-floor vehicles are more reliable/easier to maintain than lifts from high-floor vehicles. And, boarding/de-boarding is quicker with low-floor vehicles.


And low-floor vehicles are slow, uncomfortable, ugly, can't carry many passengers, generally unreliable, and boast no tourist appeal. I'm sure that the ramp is better than a lift, but all that underfloor equipment in a high-floor has to go somewhere, and that's where problems happen.


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## Ryan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> And WMATA is going all-out stupid with their "streetcar" project, using low-floor vehicles at only 30 mph out to the 'burbs! Dumb planners! Don't expect me to ride!


What the heck are you talking about here? D. is doing streetcars, but they don't go "all the way out to the 'burbs". Maryland is doing the Purple Line, which runs through the suburbs.

The only project WMATA is going is the Silver Line, which does go "all the way out to the 'burbs" but uses the same rolling stock as the rest of the system.


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## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> And low-floor vehicles are slow, uncomfortable, ugly, can't carry many passengers, generally unreliable, and boast no tourist appeal. I'm sure that the ramp is better than a lift, but all that underfloor equipment in a high-floor has to go somewhere, and that's where problems happen.


I won't argue aesthetics with you, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you are wrong about carrying capacity. San Diego's original high floor LRV's carried 96 commuters. The newer low floor cars carry either 104 or 102 commuters. Up in Portland their high floors carry 166, their low floors carry 172. And as someone who grew up riding the PCC trolley cars on the Newark City Subway, I an assure you that all LRV's have a higher carrying capacity than any trolley ever did.

As for that equipment, much of it goes to the roof where it is actually far more accessible than ever before. The MTA here in NY is finding that having the AC units on top of the commuter rail cars as a modular unit is a wonderful thing. They can replace a failed unit in just a few hours now instead of the days of work that a car used to face.

The same hold true for moving LRV equipment up top. Now you don't have to lift the entire car off of its trucks to get at most of the equipment, save the traction motors of course.


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## fairviewroad

Besides, I don't think "tourist appeal" is much of an issue for SEPTA's subway-surface routes. They don't exactly go to the touristy parts

of town.


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## Nathanael

AlanB said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, it's great to hear that SEPTA will finally have enough money to start fixing the 100-year-old bridges. Next order of business is replacing the subway-surface streetcars, and I hope there's enough money for that. There might even be enough money to progress the ADA-access projects!
> 
> 
> 
> Except for the 15 line, whose PCC's were extensively rebuilt, all other lines use LRV's.
Click to expand...

Yes, LRVs which are going to need to be replaced soon. The newest Kawasaki LRVs in Philly are from *1982* and are already over 30 years old. San Diego is busily replacing similarly-aged equipment.
The reason all the subway-surface lines were on the "axe list" for the doomsday plan (though only in 2018) was anticipated lack of equipment -- they're going to start running out of LRVs due to normal age and wear and tear in five or so years. It's far more expensive for SEPTA to operate buses than it is to operate subway-surface, but if they couldn't afford to replace the LRVs, calculations are different!

The replacement of the subway-surface stock will provide an opportunity to get level-boarding low-floor wheelchair-accessible LRVs for the first time in Philadelphia. These are needed: no busy city can afford to delay an LRV to operate a lift. Recent low-floor LRVs are very nice (I've ridden them in several cities) -- early models rode a bit rough, the way low-floor buses still do, but recent models ride smooth as anything, assuming the track's maintained.


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## cirdan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Besides, SEPTA has all those PCC's in storage, why not make some use out of them?


 Do they still have significant numbers in storage? I would have thought that after the cars they sold to places like Kenosha nd San Francisco, plus the ones they re-engineered for the 15, that anything that's left is probably not worth the effort, especially after all those years exposed to the elements.


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## cirdan

AlanB said:


> As for that equipment, much of it goes to the roof where it is actually far more accessible than ever before. The MTA here in NY is finding that having the AC units on top of the commuter rail cars as a modular unit is a wonderful thing. They can replace a failed unit in just a few hours now instead of the days of work that a car used to face.


 Plus having the heavy stuff on the roof means you have a higher center of gravity and that means the car rocks more gently (lower frequency) which makes it more comfortable.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.

The reason those aforemetioned low-floors had higher capacity than the high-floors is because they are bi-artics.

Many light-rail accidents involve collisions with cars. When a car hits a low-floor, a lot more dangerous than hitting a high-floor.

Plus, high-floors always have higher speed than low-floors.

The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area. You don't need very high capacity, you don't need articulated vehicles. This is not the Newark City Subway or the N Judah.

I'm surprised that no one likes high-floors anymore.


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## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The reason those aforemetioned low-floors had higher capacity than the high-floors is because they are bi-artics.


The length of the original LRV in San Diego is 76 feet. The length of the newest car is 79.1; virtually the same size!



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Many light-rail accidents involve collisions with cars. When a car hits a low-floor, a lot more dangerous than hitting a high-floor.


I'd love to see some stats backing up this assertion.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Plus, high-floors always have higher speed than low-floors.


This also seems to fly in the face of reality. Returning to San Diego again the first LRV they ever brought, a high-floor, has a top speed of 50 MPH. The newest cars all have a top speed of 55 MPH.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area. You don't need very high capacity, you don't need articulated vehicles. This is not the Newark City Subway or the N Judah.


Another assertion that doesn't seem to be supported by the facts; sorry! In 2011 Philly's subway-surface cars averaged 76.15 trips per revenue hour. And I suspect that number is being pulled down a bit by the lower capacity PCC cars running on the #15 line.

San Fran averaged 80.73, only slightly better. I can't break out the Newark subway from the rest of NJT's light rail systems, but NJT averaged 105.74 trips per rev hour, much better than both of the preceeding systems. And the national average is 77.5, meaning that SEPTA is right in the middle. It's not the busiest, but it is also not the emptiest system either.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, 55 mph is pretty fast. I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it. Oh well, I guess I ust like PCC's too much and hate bathtub rides too much. I'm sure you can understand.


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## WhoozOn1st

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it.


Yeah, clearly not worth it to waste time hunting down nonexistent facts to back wild and unfounded assertions. I like PCCs too, but that doesn't lead me to make stuff up about modern designs.


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## Swadian Hardcore

WhoozOn1st said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd take some time to find more stats but it's probably not worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, clearly not worth it to waste time hunting down nonexistent facts to back wild and unfounded assertions. I like PCCs too, but that doesn't lead me to make stuff up about modern designs.
Click to expand...

Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.

Then again, one could go way out and argue that all high-speed trains are high-floor. But I'm not that one.


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## Ryan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.


WMATA doesn't have any streetcars.


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## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.


Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.

And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.


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## Swadian Hardcore

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.
> 
> And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.
Click to expand...

That's interesting too, you would think the smaller and lighter cars could go faster. And more agencies are building light rail instead of heavy rail, while not building interurbans that could serve suburbs very well.

One mistake that SEPTA has not made, which I applaud, is buying intercity buses to run as mini commuter rail. I'm baffled as to why agencies keep buying intercity buses to get to the suburbs.


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## afigg

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.
> 
> Then again, one could go way out and argue that all high-speed trains are high-floor. But I'm not that one.


According to the wikipedia entry on the Inekon streetcars type that DC brought years ago, their top speed is 70 kph or 43 mph. Which is a reasonable top speed for a streetcar that runs in city traffic for much of the route and makes frequent stops for use in shorter range trips. The streetcars won't be running on open highways in DC.

As others have pointed out, the DC streetcar system is not part of WMATA, but is being implemented by DC DOT and funded by the city. See the DCstreetcar.com website for info, photos, reports, maps. With any luck, the initial H Street segment will be running by February or March. Then we can see if the low floor streetcars have a notably poor ride.


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## Anderson

RyanS said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I mean, I was really just thinking about those new WMATA streetcars that go only 30 mph. But I see that's probably not due to low-floor design, it's just that they're slow equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> WMATA doesn't have any streetcars.
Click to expand...

I sense a reference to the Columbia Pike project, if I'm not mistaken.


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## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well you also need to keep in mind that modern streetcars aren't quite the same as modern light rail cars. They look similar, but often the streetcars are smaller and lighter than their LRT cousins.
> 
> And since Streetcars spend the bulk of their time running in a street, unlike LRT cars which spend more of their time running in a private ROW, Streetcars have less need for higher speeds since they simpy need to keep up with traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting too, you would think the smaller and lighter cars could go faster. And more agencies are building light rail instead of heavy rail, while not building interurbans that could serve suburbs very well.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear here since we seem to be throwing lots of words around;
Heavy Rail means subways and L's, like NYC subway or the Chicago L.

LIght Rail doesn't mean a lighter vehicle. The "light" in light rail refers to the fact that the cars carry fewer passengers than their heavy rail counterparts. They're light on passenger carrying capacity. But some light rail cars are just as heavy in physical weight at their Heavy Rail cousins.

Light rail trains can mix with traffic, unlike Heavy rail trains which cannot. Light rail trains typically spend more time running in a private ROW than in mixed traffic lanes.

Streetcars are generally lighter in weight than their Light rail cousins, generally have slower speeds because they dont need higher speeds, and they spend more than 90% of their run in the street mixing with cars.

At least those are the official definitions, as there is some blurring of the lines between Streetcar & light rail. Like for example, the new Sugar House Streetcar in Salt Lake City. Technically that should not be called a Streetcar, since at least initially it will spend most of its run in a private ROW and not in a street. And at least initially, it will be using the same cars used by all the light rail lines in SLC.

And out on the west coast, the Tacoma Link Light rail line uses the same cars as Portland's Streetcar. But because Tacoma Link spends a majority of its run in a private ROW, it is classified as light rail. But down in Portland, because the cars spend most of their time mixing with traffic, they're classed as Streetcars.

Confused yet? :unsure: :lol:


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## MattW

I'll also add that Atlanta's streetcar project is using true light rail vehicles, the Siemens S70 which I believe can operate at up to 70mph, but the project will only run them in mixed traffic though the plan is to eventually connect to a more conventional light rail system.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, you bet I'm confused. I give up trying to understand rail transit, I guess I'm not a "light rail person".


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## cirdan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.


It's all physics. Think of it like a pendulum or a metronome.

A long pendulum swings slowly. It takes a long time to complete a swing cycle and get back to its original position.

A short pendulum is much faster.

Think of a grandfather clock versus a tabletop clock.

Think of drums. The smaller the drum, the higher the pitch.

Your light rail car is like a pendulum. The suspension allows it to swing and the distance to the center of gravity determines how fast it swings.

The higher the center of gravity, the slower the swing.

Old fashioned light rail cars had the heavy stuff under the floor and close to the suspension, hence a short pendulum.

A modern light rail car has it on the roof and a long way from the suspension, hence a long pendulum.

A slow swing is more comfortable than a fast one. It's less abrupt. It's more predictable.

Of course the trade off is that with a high center of gravity, it's also easier to derail and easier to topple over. But generally cars are designed to be sufficiently stable that that won't happen.


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## Nathanel

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area.


This is not an accurate description of University City. Last I heard, these routes are pretty busy Center City to University City.


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## cirdan

Nathanel said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subway-surface routes are not very crowded, because they operate to a decayed area.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not an accurate description of University City. Last I heard, these routes are pretty busy Center City to University City.
Click to expand...

 The only sub-surface line I've done end to end is the 10, and thus I don't know if that one is typical or not. But whereas that area isn't exactly pretty or well looked after by any stretch, it still has a lot of people of all ages living in it, and they all need to get around. As such there should still be a lot of ridership potential.


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## Swadian Hardcore

cirdan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand how a top-heavy low floor will be more stable than a bottom-heavy high-floor. /that dosen't make sense. And riding in a low-floor feels like riding in a big bathtub. Not good.
> 
> 
> 
> It's all physics. Think of it like a pendulum or a metronome.
> 
> A long pendulum swings slowly. It takes a long time to complete a swing cycle and get back to its original position.
> 
> A short pendulum is much faster.
> 
> Think of a grandfather clock versus a tabletop clock.
> 
> Think of drums. The smaller the drum, the higher the pitch.
> 
> Your light rail car is like a pendulum. The suspension allows it to swing and the distance to the center of gravity determines how fast it swings.
> 
> The higher the center of gravity, the slower the swing.
> 
> Old fashioned light rail cars had the heavy stuff under the floor and close to the suspension, hence a short pendulum.
> 
> A modern light rail car has it on the roof and a long way from the suspension, hence a long pendulum.
> 
> A slow swing is more comfortable than a fast one. It's less abrupt. It's more predictable.
> 
> Of course the trade off is that with a high center of gravity, it's also easier to derail and easier to topple over. But generally cars are designed to be sufficiently stable that that won't happen.
Click to expand...

While this may be true, I have experienced less stable rides in top-heavy vehicles than bottom-heavy vehicles, I'm not sure why. For example, the ride on a bottom-heavy 102DL3 is more stable than on a top-heavy G4500 or J4500.


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## afigg

SEPTA has announced the highlights of what it plans to do with the new funding. Philadelphia Inquirer: SEPTA announces ambitious capital-improvement plan.



> With new state funding on the way from the recently signed transportation law, SEPTA has switched from doomsday threats to promises of a grand restoration.
> 
> SEPTA will move quickly to replace aging vehicles and infrastructure, to keep trains and trolleys running on routes that had been threatened with extinction, deputy general manager Jeffrey Knueppel told the SEPTA board Thursday.
> 
> SEPTA hopes to double its annual spending for vehicle purchases and construction projects to $600 million within five years, Knueppel said. Currently, SEPTA's capital budget is about $300 million a year; increasing contributions from the state are expected to incrementally boost that amount each year.


SEPTA has posted a 19 page viewgraph presentation which lists the projects by phase for all parts of the system. For rolling stock, new electric locomotives are in phase 1, which could be the rumored 10 unit ACS-64 order to replace the AEM-7s. New trolley cars are phase 2.

For railroad stations shared with Amtrak, Exton is in phase 1 while Paoli is in Phase 5. But since Paoli is to become the Paoli Transportation Center, the plans may be to try to land a TIGER grant to help fund the new station.


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## Acela150

afigg said:


> SEPTA has announced the highlights of what it plans to do with the new funding. Philadelphia Inquirer: SEPTA announces ambitious capital-improvement plan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With new state funding on the way from the recently signed transportation law, SEPTA has switched from doomsday threats to promises of a grand restoration.
> 
> SEPTA will move quickly to replace aging vehicles and infrastructure, to keep trains and trolleys running on routes that had been threatened with extinction, deputy general manager Jeffrey Knueppel told the SEPTA board Thursday.
> 
> SEPTA hopes to double its annual spending for vehicle purchases and construction projects to $600 million within five years, Knueppel said. Currently, SEPTA's capital budget is about $300 million a year; increasing contributions from the state are expected to incrementally boost that amount each year.
> 
> 
> 
> For rolling stock, new electric locomotives are in phase 1, which could be the rumored 10 unit ACS-64 order to replace the AEM-7s. New trolley cars are phase 2.
Click to expand...

New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.

Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.
> 
> Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!


The viewgraph presentation I linked to is a SEPTA document. The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (linked to earlier in this thread) lists a regional rail car and locomotive acquisition program to replace the electric locomotives as well as the Silverliner IVs as an unfunded program. So these are official SEPTA plans for better or worse despite your belief that SEPTA has been trying to ditch the push-pull for years. SEPTA now has more money, so they are advancing the purchase of new electric locomotives, presumably because of the opportunity presented by the Siemens ACS-64 production run.

As for ordering new bi-level cars, would the Bombardier multi-level cars used by NJ Transit to operate to NYP fit through the Center City tunnel? MARC is buying a bunch of them, so why not SEPTA?


----------



## PRR 60

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> New electrics for Septa?? They have been trying to ditch the Push Pull sets for years.
> 
> Add on- Looking at the fact that Septa wants to add Bi-Levels is pure BS.. They know and I know that Bi-Levels won't run through the CCCT.. So unless they're gunna buy Bi-Levels that will fit through the CCCT and be comfortable to passengers I'm not buying into that for a second!
> 
> 
> 
> The viewgraph presentation I linked to is a SEPTA document. The SEPTA FY2014 capital budget (linked to earlier in this thread) lists a regional rail car and locomotive acquisition program to replace the electric locomotives as well as the Silverliner IVs as an unfunded program. So these are official SEPTA plans for better or worse despite your belief that SEPTA has been trying to ditch the push-pull for years. SEPTA now has more money, so they are advancing the purchase of new electric locomotives, presumably because of the opportunity presented by the Siemens ACS-64 production run.
> As for ordering new bi-level cars, would the Bombardier multi-level cars used by NJ Transit to operate to NYP fit through the Center City tunnel? NARC is buying a bunch of them, so why not SEPTA?
Click to expand...

Yes, the Bombardier NJT multi-levels can operate through the center city tunnel.


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## Nathanael

The "Phases" in SEPTA's new capital improvement plan confused the heck out of me. Different programs have different numbers of phases. Some of the programs seem to have incredibly urgent things in phase 5, while others have things which could probably be put off in phase 1 ("Parking Expansion Program Partnership Opportunities").

I suspect the phasing is only within each department, and a separate decision will be made as to which departments get priority allocation of funds.

Some of the departments' descriptions are even odder: "Media/Elwyn Catenary" is the first *three* phases of "Railroad R.O.W. power program". You'd think that would be broken down into more specific descriptions if it's in three separate phases... Similar vagueness is present in "Track Program".

Anyway, thank goodness that SEPTA finally has some money to start catching up on its backlog.


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## afigg

Nathanael said:


> The "Phases" in SEPTA's new capital improvement plan confused the heck out of me. Different programs have different numbers of phases. Some of the programs seem to have incredibly urgent things in phase 5, while others have things which could probably be put off in phase 1 ("Parking Expansion Program Partnership Opportunities").
> 
> I suspect the phasing is only within each department, and a separate decision will be made as to which departments get priority allocation of funds.


The viewgraphs are a public presentation, not a detailed schedule planning document. The phases are probably self-contained to each major system and are a rough estimate timeframe at present.

There is news this week on SEPTA looking at ordering 36 bi-level coaches to provide peak capacity: Double-decker train cars for SEPTA?. There is a clearance study underway to determine if the prospective bi-levels will fit.

The article also states that SEPTA is looking to increase the electric locomotive fleet to 12 units, which suggests that they may be planning to order 12 ACS-64s. The order has to be put out for a public bid, but I don't see who other than Siemens would be willing to provide a competitive bid for 12 electric locos. Could be a very good year for the Siemens Sacramento plant with an order for passenger diesel locos and a piggy-back order for 12 additional ACS-64s.

Also, with $600 million in TIGER grant funds in the FY14 appropriations, SEPTA could apply for a grant for a new/rebuild intermodal station project or two.


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## Nathanael

afigg said:


> Also, with $600 million in TIGER grant funds in the FY14 appropriations, SEPTA could apply for a grant for a new/rebuild intermodal station project or two.


If they could ever nail down the plans for Paoli, that would be a worthwhile project for TIGER funds.


----------

