# A way around dealing w/ confused AGR agents?



## Blackwolf (Nov 30, 2013)

Is there anyone here who has done the following before?


Make a reservation with a normal Amtrak phone agent, putting together all the parts and pieces of a reservation from point A to point B (say, from Sacramento, CA to Portland, ME,) making sure to keep the details within what is "legal" per AGR rules, and having the reservation "held" prior to payment. Get the res # and then hang up the phone.
Call AGR, tell the phone agent there you would like to redeem points for a held reservation, give the agent the "held" res #, and then complete the transaction as an AGR reward.
I use SAC to POR as an example because Amtrak's ARROW only gives a through routing via 6>50>66>681, meaning you have to travel based off of the Cardinal's schedule, take the overnight non-sleeper #66 up the NEC to Boston and make a groggy transfer between BOS and BON to the Downeaster. Meanwhile, I'd much rather take a routing of 6>448>681, with an overnight in Boston at my own expense. It is much more direct, makes for a more comfortable and relaxing trip, and provides for much comfortable padding times between trains (I'd hate to miss the CZ>CARD connection!!)

I ask my original question because making the reservation through Amtrak's normal agents might be a whole lot less painful to complete without the disjointed "well, that's not a published route" nonsense. The key seems to make sure the reservation remains within AGR's rulebook, and have it "served up on a platter" to the AGR agent for redemption, so to speak.

Thoughts?


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## the_traveler (Nov 30, 2013)

An AGR agent can do anything a "regular" agent can do. But there are some things a "regular" agent could say that are not allowed with an AGR redemption. (Example is a regular agent will allow on a paid ticket a stopover in CHI for 3 days, but stopovers are not allowed on an AGR redemption.)

That said, I never had a problem with alternate AGR routings. Also new rules with AGR redemptions should allow what you want to do to include 448.

I'd say for both you and the 2 agents, just call AGR and save the extra work needed.


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## Jose (Dec 1, 2013)

It might be smart to try doing this after a failed attempt with an AGR agent.

I recently booked a 1 zone PDX-DEN. I asked to connect from the CS to the CZ in EMY instead of SAC. After a polite point/counterpoint and offering to be placed on hold while the agent consulted her supervisor, the agent reluctantly agreed to the EMY connection "as a one time courtesy," but told me that AGR res can only follow published routings.

Luckily that worked out instead of having to pay the $50 or so for the coach ticket SAC-EMY-SAC to avoid sitting in SAC station for 6 hours.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 1, 2013)

I've actually been having a lot more luck with the AGR desk lately. I've had some conversations in the past that were so needlessly confusing and irrational that I felt like stomping on my own phone just to make it stop. In more recent attempts I've had a lot fewer arguments. I ask for the date, time, and route I want and they build it for me. No more questioning why I want this route over that route or this day over that day. What a relief it's been to be done in just a few minutes instead of an hour or more of painful Q&A. I never thought I'd be happy with AGR reps but they seem a lot less confused and confrontational these days. That being said, I haven't tried requesting the OP's routing or the CZ/CS connection in EMY recently, so maybe those requests are still a pain.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> I ask my original question because making the reservation through Amtrak's normal agents might be a whole lot less painful to complete without the disjointed "well, that's not a published route" nonsense. The key seems to make sure the reservation remains within AGR's rulebook, and have it "served up on a platter" to the AGR agent for redemption, so to speak.
> 
> Thoughts?


Useless is my thought or word for this idea.

What you propose cannot be done. There is no way that the AGR agent can take a held, or even a paid reservation, and simply convert it to a points reservation. The agent must cancel the held reservation and then hope that all space is still available as they start to construct the AGR reservation from scratch. Once a reservation starts out as a paid reservation it cannot be "transferred" to an AGR reservation, it can only be paid for or cancelled.

So all you'd be doing is wasting your time and the time of that Amtrak agent to create a reservation that will end up being cancelled and have no impact on your ability to get your AGR award.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 1, 2013)

It is not surprising to learn than the reservation system is set up so that paid and award reservations are two completely isolated products, even if it is frustratingly short-sighted in nature. I don't agree that I am wasting anyone's time, mine, that of an agent, or anyone else by asking this question here on the forum. Nor would it be a solution looking for a problem, considering how difficult getting non-published, direct and more sensible routes have been in the past from AGR.

I last redeemed one year ago, for a 3-zone roomette award from WAS to SAC, and I had to work my way through both an agent and a supervisor in order to get a 51>5 routing instead of the recommended 29>5 routing the computer spat out. I'd never been on the Cardinal at that point and wanted to experience it. Since then, AGR has obviously changed for the better and when I am ready to make award travel reservations again I hope to not have as much trouble. Since this is not planned until March of 2015, I have to wait a few more months before trying it out directly with AGR.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> It is not surprising to learn than the reservation system is set up so that paid and award reservations are two completely isolated products, even if it is frustratingly short-sighted in nature.


I believe, I'm not 100% sure, that the issue is due to ARROW's limitations. If there was a way to do that, I think that the problem is that a regular agent would then be able to make a reservation for a friend and then transfer it to AGR even though that friend has no points, or for that matter even an AGR account.

Were ARROW to be replaced, or at least get a major overhaul, then what you want to do might well be possible.



Blackwolf said:


> I don't agree that I am wasting anyone's time, mine, that of an agent, or anyone else by asking this question here on the forum.


I never suggested that you were wasting your time or anyone here on the forum by asking this question. And I would never suggest such a thing since the entire point of this forum is to allow people to ask such questions.

I said that making an unpaid reservation would be a waste of your time and the agent on the phone's time.



Blackwolf said:


> Nor would it be a solution looking for a problem, considering how difficult getting non-published, direct and more sensible routes have been in the past from AGR.


Things are much easier these days trying to get valid routes added to the computer. Just drop a PM to AGR Insider over on Flyertalk.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 1, 2013)

AlanB said:


> The agent must cancel the held reservation and then hope that all space is still available as they start to construct the AGR reservation from scratch.


It remains unclear to me why it never occurred to Amtrak to create a protected mode where the seats or rooms in question are locked away from the public while being actively managed. The idea that everything must be released for general sale while in the process of being modified by an agent is extremely odd and rare in my experience. Airlines have a much more complex situation with seats being sold not only by their own in house systems but also by direct partners, international alliances, and booking networks all working on their own rules and technologies. Yet airlines do not have to risk the integrity of your trip just to change something on their end. Out of hundreds of flights across a dozen airlines I've never lost a single trip while making a change. I've never lost a trip on Amtrak either, but apparently that's by luck rather than by design. Hopefully they will update their system in the future so this ceases to be a risk to their customers.


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## the_traveler (Dec 1, 2013)

Remember that ARROW was developed in the 1970`s or 1980's and was state of the art then. As soon as Congress authorizes money to develop a new system or revamp ARROW will change. But I don't see that happening very soon. More likely, Amtrak may get less money.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The agent must cancel the held reservation and then hope that all space is still available as they start to construct the AGR reservation from scratch.
> ...


I honestly don't know & understand enough regarding the situation with ARROW to speak about all the why's & wherefore's. But again, I do know that ARROW greatly limits a lot of what Amtrak can do with regards to situations like this.

I do know from direct experience however that again, an agent must release the room/seat back to inventory at which point it is up for sale to anyone, prior to building an AGR reservation. I have personally placed a room on a held reservation because it was the last one on the train, waiting until I had enough points to claim an award later that week.

Both friends familiar with ARROW and the agent that I spoke with to convert warned me that there was a very slight risk, but a real risk nonetheless, that someone else could grab that room while the agent reset his screen to grab that room in AGR mode as it were.


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 2, 2013)

Jose said:


> It might be smart to try doing this after a failed attempt with an AGR agent.
> 
> I recently booked a 1 zone PDX-DEN. I asked to connect from the CS to the CZ in EMY instead of SAC. After a polite point/counterpoint and offering to be placed on hold while the agent consulted her supervisor, the agent reluctantly agreed to the EMY connection "as a one time courtesy," but told me that AGR res can only follow published routings.
> 
> Luckily that worked out instead of having to pay the $50 or so for the coach ticket SAC-EMY-SAC to avoid sitting in SAC station for 6 hours.


The agent who "agreed to the EMY connection "as a one time courtesy," but told me that AGR res can only follow published routings" was incorrect. After explaining to AGR Insider (via PM) that you can go WAS-CHI-PDX on the Cardinal (3) times per week but not via the CL he sent my proposed change to Ops and you now can go to PDX from WAS via the CL/EB (7) days a week.

After buying points(wife and I each 13,000) wife (1 zone) and I (2 zones) with the assistance of the AGR Guru (Dave aka the_traveler) we booked WAS-CHI-PDX-SAC-RNO for January 2014. Dave then suggested we get off the CS at MTZ so as to avoid the long layover in SAC and get breakfast on the CS after leaving SAC.

Waited a week, called AGR and changed the CS/CZ segement to PDX-MTZ-RNO with no questions whatsoever. The funny thing is though if you book a paid WAS-CHI-PDX-SAC-RNO all the way to SAC is train BUT SAC-RNO is by bus. I told AGR Insider that for me, taking a bus over the Sierra Nevada mountains from SAC-RNO in the winter is not in my future. Made the suggestion that ARROW should be changed so SAC-RNO is the CZ and not a bus for safety reasons in the winter. Still shows bus.

Anyways AGR was good when I used it and I suppose if you get a knowledgeable regular agent a person could get WAS-CHI-PDX-SAC-RNO all the way using trains only for a paid reservation.

I've been on the SWC, CL, Cardinal and CZ so the change AGR Insider got approved allowed me to "afford" the EB and CS using AGR points and mark them off my bucket list.

NAVYBLUE


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## PRR 60 (Dec 2, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Unless one train is sold out, why would't the AGR agent simply place the new AGR reservation, then once the new reservation is in place, then cancel the original paid reservation? That way there is no chance of losing the reservation. I do that all the time with hotels when the rate drops: first make the new booking, then cancel the old booking. Doing it the other is just dumb.


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## the_traveler (Dec 2, 2013)

In Alan's example above, he did state that when he made the reservation with the "regular" agent, it was the *LAST* room. I would think many times they do just as you said Bill.


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## Ryan (Dec 2, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> Unless one train is sold out, why would't the AGR agent simply place the new AGR reservation, then once the new reservation is in place, then cancel the original paid reservation? That way there is no chance of losing the reservation. I do that all the time with hotels when the rate drops: first make the new booking, then cancel the old booking. Doing it the other is just dumb.


Some people are also attached to the particular room they are assigned to and want to stay in that room. Only way to do that is release and rebook.



NAVYBLUE said:


> The agent who "agreed to the EMY connection "as a one time courtesy," but told me that AGR res can only follow published routings" was incorrect. After explaining to AGR Insider (via PM) that you can go WAS-CHI-PDX on the Cardinal (3) times per week but not via the CL he sent the proposed change to Ops and you now can go to PDX from WAS via the CL/EB (7) days a week.


The agent was correct, you can only follow published routings.

The fact that you were able to follow up with someone empowered to attempt to change published routings after the fact doesn't make the original agent's statement incorrect.


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