# Algoma Central passenger service going away



## Nathanael (Jan 29, 2014)

(Not directly VIA, but people might be interested.)

Harper government decided to remove funding. Ride it while you can.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/subsidy-cut-spells-end-to-sault-hearst-passenger-train-service-1.2514467

I did a little research.

The total "Regional and Remote Passenger Rail Class Contribution Program" is only scheduled to get $58.2 million over *five years*, according to Harper's budget (which I found in a few places, under the name "Economic Action Plan 2013). $11.66 million per year is not enough to support many trains, especially to remote areas with low populations.



> Economic Action Plan 2013 proposes to provide $54.7 million in 201314
> 
> to support VIA Rails operations, and investments in its equipment.
> 
> Rail operators supported under Transport Canadas Regional and Remote Passenger Rail Class Contribution Program provide the only surface transportation option to several communities with no road links. Economic Action Plan 2013 proposes to provide $58.2 million over five years starting in 201314 to ensure that existing passenger rail services to remote communities can be continued.


VIA's "remote and regional" trains were reported to have farebox recovery ratios of less than 20%, and only $5.1 million in revenue, back in 2010. Based on this, the federal funding will cover less than half of the existing *VIA* "essential services" routes. The non-VIA routes seem to have been the first casualty. I guess we're going to see more cuts to "essential services".

Notice that the overall budget for VIA is also way too small and would probably cause VIA to shut down entirely. I doubt that VIA can pull off the trick Amtrak did of borrowing against its equipment until the government changes. I think this might have been increased in Parliament after the initial budget proposal -- there was a lot of complaint about it.


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## rrdude (Jan 29, 2014)

"..............Access to other transportation options........." like the highway (SUBSIDIZED) and air-service. _probably_ subsidized............

Such "Cut off your nose to spite your face thinking.........."

Well, at least the USA is not the only Western country to have really STOOPID politicos!

Fricking makes me want turn into a terrorist.................


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

Sorry Nathanael, I think your figures are off.

To see the actual appropriations for VIA you need to look at the Main and Supplementary Estimates prepared by the Treasury Board of Canada. They show that VIA has received somewhat over $400 million annually in federal government funding for operations and capital investment. This number will go down, however, as the $1 billion capital investment program is now nearing completion.

The regional and remote services subsidies is something entirely different. It supports three non-VIA trains, i.e. Algoma Central, the Keewatin Railway mixed train going north from The Pas, Manitoba, and the twice weekly service from Sept Isles in the Lower St. Lawrence north to Labrador. Prior to last year it also supported the Ontario Northland Northlander train, but only on the Toronto to North Bay portion of the run, the remainder being funded solely by the Province of Ontario.

The problem, is that there are very specific criteria for this program, namely that the train serve regions that do not have access to the national transportation network. The program was subject to an evaluation in 2010, which raised this issue. In fact neither the southern tip of the Northlander nor the Algoma Central trains qualify on this basis. The other two do.


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## Nathanael (Jan 29, 2014)

Oh, so the Regional and Remote Services fund *doesn't* fund the VIA Rail trains to VIA's (explicitly described as such) "regional and remote services" areas? (Jonequerre, Seneterre, White River-Sudbury, Prince George, Winnipeg-The Pas-Churchill). That has to come out of the standard VIA budget? Ouch. Are you sure about that?

I knew the "economic action plan" number couldn't be the actual budget number for VIA. Thanks. Apparently VIA is getting yet another round of operations funding cuts, though.'

FWIW, I did check and the new "rules" for the program were just invented in 2010 as an excuse to kill funding; they didn't exist before that.


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## Anderson (Jan 30, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Oh, so the Regional and Remote Services fund *doesn't* fund the VIA Rail trains to VIA's (explicitly described as such) "regional and remote services" areas? (Jonequerre, Seneterre, White River-Sudbury, Prince George, Winnipeg-The Pas-Churchill). That has to come out of the standard VIA budget? Ouch. Are you sure about that?
> 
> I knew the "economic action plan" number couldn't be the actual budget number for VIA. Thanks. Apparently VIA is getting yet another round of operations funding cuts, though.'
> 
> FWIW, I did check and the new "rules" for the program were just invented in 2010 as an excuse to kill funding; they didn't exist before that.


IIRC, VIA's remote service trains are a separate funding issue because VIA is required to maintain certain services. I'm not familiar with the logic/history there, but IIRC there's _something_ there since the services are listed as "Mandatory" in VIA's reports.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 30, 2014)

I saw this as well and I am hoping to make it up there before the end of March...

are there any other operations like this I need to try to catch? (i.e. non-VIA "essential services")


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 21, 2014)

Is there at least a bus service along this route? Greyhound sure doesn't operate any. Losing a train is bad, losing a train, then a bus, then a plane, is REALLY bad!


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## CHamilton (Feb 21, 2014)

Ontario Passenger Local Gets Month Reprieve



> The backwoods local passenger train between Sault St. Marie and Hearst, Ont., is getting a month reprieve from being discontinued.
> 
> Canadian National, which operates the former Algoma Central Railway local, had been to end the train on March 31 after the Canadian federal government ended its funding of the service. But the train will now operate through April 29.


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## neroden (Mar 15, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Is there at least a bus service along this route? Greyhound sure doesn't operate any. Losing a train is bad, losing a train, then a bus, then a plane, is REALLY bad!


There aren't even continuous roads along this route. Apparently the fact that there are local branch roads leading to *most* points along the route, on often-convoluted road routings, was enough for the Harper administration to declare the route "non-essential".


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 15, 2014)

neroden said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Is there at least a bus service along this route? Greyhound sure doesn't operate any. Losing a train is bad, losing a train, then a bus, then a plane, is REALLY bad!
> ...


Wow, going to strand those people in the middle of nowhere with only a dirt road leading out, and some places with nothing else at all? WOW, Canada! I better ride some more VIA Rail and Greyhound Canada before their cuts get ridiculous.


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## neroden (Mar 16, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Wow, going to strand those people in the middle of nowhere with only a dirt road leading out,


Well, I think most of the roads leading to these places are paved. (You know the sort I'm talking about: paved rural road with no striping, just a ribbon of asphalt.) But still... there's a reason people are complaining!...



> and some places with nothing else at all? WOW, Canada! I better ride some more VIA Rail and Greyhound Canada before their cuts get ridiculous.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, going to strand those people in the middle of nowhere with only a dirt road leading out,
> ...


Even a properly graded gravel road is a big step up from a dirt trail. I'm always surprised at people who equate the two.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 16, 2014)

My bad, I thought they were only dirt roads, not gravel or paved roads. I guess Canada isn't so bad after all, at least those guys have a way out.


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## neroden (Mar 16, 2014)

...most of them. There are still a bunch of lodges served only by rail.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 16, 2014)

Here’s the Ministry of Transport Highway Maps for Northern Ontario. They also show the Algoma Central, VIA’s Sudbury-White River route (CP’s Transcontinental Mainline) and VIA’s Canadian route from Capreol to the Manitoba border (CN’s Transcontinental Main) There’s very few parallel roads. Most cross the rail lines north/south connecting to the Trans Canada Highway. 

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map12.pdf

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map14.pdf

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map13.pdf

It's a vast area......on the Canadian's route for example, it's 1400 km from Sudbury to the Manitoba border and takes 24 hours. And at the Ontario-Manitoba border there is only a single 2 lane highway, a single CPR track and a CNR track. There's nothing else connecting eastern Canada to western Canada starting at the Minnesota US/Can border and going as far north as you want.....Hudson Bay, Nunavut..... right to the Artic Ocean


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 16, 2014)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Here’s the Ministry of Transport Highway Maps for Northern Ontario. They also show the Algoma Central, VIA’s Sudbury-White River route (CP’s Transcontinental Mainline) and VIA’s Canadian route from Capreol to the Manitoba border (CN’s Transcontinental Main) There’s very few parallel roads. Most cross the rail lines north/south connecting to the Trans Canada Highway.
> 
> http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map12.pdf
> 
> ...


As always, your information is very useful. I have to say, Canada's population density is so low that it doesn't really need that many roads, the 2-lane TCH is probably enough for many parts, it's the parts that are not served by anything that are in trouble. For example, the aforementioned lodges that are only served by rail, I do hope they continue to be served by rail, and are not in the cancelled part of the ACR. Otherwise people might have to climb a freight train.

This makes me wonder, why not keep ACR pax service as a mized train? That would be better than nothing.

BTW, Greater Tokyo has more people than the entire nation of Canada, second largest nation in the world. While the Corridor is somewhat densely populated, the rest of Canada appears to be wide expanses of nowhere. No wonder trains have a hard time surviving.


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2014)

The thing which is most troublesome is that the parallel "through" roads are really a long way away.

If you want to go from one point on the Algoma Central line "with a road" to another point "with a road", you can

(1) take the train

or

(2) take a winding rural road (perhaps asphalt without striping or maintenance, possibly gravel or dirt) for 30-50 miles west, then take the 2-lane highway north/south for however many miles, then take another rural road for 30-50 miles east.

There's no road which goes parallel to the railway line nearby; all the roads run transverse to the railway line. So it's extremely circuitous to get to most points on the railway line by road.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

You maybe surprised, but the road network north of Superior, while not dense, consists of high quality, well engineered (and expensive) two lane highways. Hawk Junction, one of the few settlements on the ACR is 30 km (19 miles) east of the village of Wawa, which is on the Trans Canada Highway, not 30 to 50 miles.

More pertinently, there is virtually no permanent population along the railway line whatsoever. The population of the entire Algoma District, which covers 47,000 sq. km. is only about 118,000, of which 85,000 live in the City of Sault Saint. Marie or the Town of Elliott Lake. The only settlements along the railway besides Sault Saint Marie and Hawk Junction is Hearst, which is on the northern branch of the Trans Canada Highway. In the 2010 Transport Canada study of the remote passenger services the only location on the ACR identified as lacking year-round road access was Franz, which is not a settlement per se, but a railway agency Even there the distance was only 5 km and in any case the study noted that the assertion that there is currently no road access to Franz may not be correct, as the topographical map shows a road.

Bottom line: For practical purposes there are no permanent settlements that depend exclusively on the railway for access.

What about your point of getting from one place along the railway to another?

There are summer camps ( "cottages" as we say in Southern Ontario; "cabins" in the west, or "lodges" in the Adirondacks), i.e. seasonal recreational properties. The end of rail service therefore does raise an issue for remote tourism. Whether maintaining access of recreational property owners is worth a multi-million dollar annual subsidy is another matter, however. Float plane access is an alterative, since most of these properties are lakefront.

The ACR passenger train has experiences steadily declining ridership, because there simply is no traffic base. By 2009 the usage was down to 6000 per year, or 500 per moth, or less than 20 per train.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to see the service continue. But by any realistic assessment of how governments spend infrastructure dollars it is a pretty thin case.


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2014)

Guest said:


> More pertinently, there is virtually no permanent population along the railway line whatsoever.


Yeah. The thing is, I wonder if the same is true on the other "essential services" lines. It seems to be.
From the overhead view, there appear to be no permanent settlements between Sudbury and White River without roads, either. Missanabie, I guess, has 62 people... it has a road. Does Amyot have population? Looks like it has a road too. Sultan (population 49) and Biscotasing (population 22) have roads. Perhaps the fact that the roads are privately owned is the difference?

I can totally understand the argument for eliminating ALL of these "remote services": not just the Algoma Central and the White River - Sudbury, but the Jonquierre and Senneterre services too.

The Jonquierre route seems to have *highways* to all the permanent settements, except Lac-Edouard, which still has a road.

What I don't see is how the Algoma Central route is any emptier than the others. It actually seems to be more justifiable to support it than to support the Jonquierre train. This makes me suspect that the plan is to get rid of all of them.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

Your point has been made on Canadian passenger rail forums, namely that VIA's remote and social services could be vulnerable if there only criterion were a lack of alterative transport options. That said, the 2010 Transport Canada evaluation study only examined the four non VIA -operated remote services, not VIA's mandated services. Of the four, one (the Toronto to North Bay portion of the Northlander) is already gone, and AGR service seems likely to go unless alternative funding emerges. But to reiterate, as was pointed out in an earlier post, AGR has operated its passenger service though a separate federal grant program from VIA Rail.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

Your point has been made on Canadian passenger rail forums, namely that VIA's remote and social services could be vulnerable if there only criterion were a lack of alterative transport options. That said, the 2010 Transport Canada evaluation study only examined the four non VIA -operated remote services, not VIA's mandated services. Of the four, one (the Toronto to North Bay portion of the Northlander) is already gone, and AGR service seems likely to go unless alternative funding emerges. But to reiterate, as was pointed out in an earlier post, AGR has operated its passenger service though a separate federal grant program from VIA Rail.


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## neroden (Mar 24, 2014)

OK, thanks for the info.

It seems clear to me that the only reason VIA's remote services have not been cut is in order to hamstring VIA's budget and force VIA to cut more useful services such as the southern Ontario services or the Ocean. This would be consistent with Harper's M.O. His plan is clearly to eliminate all federally funded passenger rail service in Canada. We'll see if he succeeds.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 24, 2014)

I think that if ridership is really so low and there's no big need for these remote trains anyway, might as well cancel them. The roads go to all the permanenet settlements and pretty much nobody is going to travel from a remote cottage to another remote cottage anyway, they would just head straight home via the highway.

What I really hope for comoing out of this is that the equipment and money saved will get redirected towards more popular, useful services, like the Canadian, which could use daily service. But this seems very unlikely given the current situation in Canada.


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## NS VIA Fan (Apr 13, 2014)

[SIZE=10.5pt]Federal Transport Minister, Lisa Raitt, is scheduled to visit Sault Ste. Marie next week and the speculation is she wouldn’t be visiting just to announce the Government was not going to renew the operating subsidy for the Hearst Train……but instead possibly to announce a one year extension and time for various agencies to seek funding to continue the train.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]There is a Federal Election scheduled for 2015 and funding could possibly continue until that time.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]>>>>> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]And on the “Ocean” front: Mayors from communities in NE New Brunswick and eastern Quebec met with Minister Raitt last week and reports say they came away satisfied with the meeting and positive. [/SIZE]


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2014)

Well, I'm glad to hear the hopefully-good news. However, this Canadian federal government has a bit of a reputation for saying things in private to reassure other governments -- and then not living up to them. So fingers crossed.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

As forecast the Minister of Transport has extended the funding for the ACR passenger train to the end of the fiscal year on March 31, 2015 in order to give stakeholders the opportunity to find a long term solution. The news release notes that the Remote Passenger Rail service program is designed to support service to permanent communities lacking alternative transportation. Remote hunting lodges and summer cottages would appear not to qualify under the revised criteria.

That said the final resolution will be political. With a federal election looming in 2015 the prospect of finding some way to extend service (under another some other program perhaps?) seems fairly likely.


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## CHamilton (Oct 29, 2014)

Passenger Rail Along ACR Looking Up: Third Party Interest Abounds



> Members of the Coalition for Algoma Passenger Trains (CAPT) and all parties that have a concern for continued passenger rail service along the ACR are feeling hopeful and excited. CAPT has dedicated several years to raising awareness about the economic, cultural and environmental benefit of passenger trains in the Algoma District....
> 
> 
> Following Raitt’s announcement the City of Sault Ste. Marie struck up a committee, Algoma Passenger Rail, comprised of numerous stakeholders including CAPT. The committee has been frantically scrambling to find a way to continue running passenger rail service along the ACR- and their hard work has proven fruitful.
> ...


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## CHamilton (Jan 18, 2015)

Tour train on track: task force members



> A third-party operator expected to run Algoma Central Railway's Agawa Canyon Tour Train and passenger service offers "a new beginning" for the rail line.
> 
> Al Errington, owner of Errington's Wilderness Island, calls Friday's announcement that will see the unnamed company with experience in passenger and tourism service "a sea change" for ACR....
> 
> ...


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## Anderson (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm trying to sort through this, but it sounds like the plan might be to extend the "tourist train" through to Hearst on a daily basis and add flag-stop service with it, with passengers visiting the park simply boarding one train north and another train south. Does that sound about right?


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## CHamilton (Mar 31, 2015)

Harper government approves funding for continued passenger rail service between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst

Funding extended for three years



> OTTAWA, ON - Bryan Hayes, Member of Parliament for Sault Ste. Marie, on behalf of the Honourable Lisa Raitt, Minister of Transport, announced today that the Government of Canada will provide $5.3 million over three years for the continued operation of the passenger rail service between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst, Ontario.
> The City of Sault Ste. Marie will receive federal support for three years for the continued operation of the passenger rail service to establish a new regime of passenger rail service in the area.


More here:

http://northernhoot.com/passenger-train-service-between-sault-and-hearst-saved/


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 1, 2015)

Good job! What's with that "Honourable", though? They always seem to use that title.


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## NS VIA Fan (Apr 1, 2015)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Good job! What's with that "Honourable", though? They always seem to use that title.


http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/wrtps/index-eng.html?lang=eng&lettr=indx_catlog_r&page=9EW0airMlTgc.html


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks for the link. That makes sense to me now. I thought they would just use Governor or Lt. Governor like we do here.


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## CHamilton (May 16, 2015)

Coalition for Algoma Passenger Trains: Railmark On Mark


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## CHamilton (Jul 14, 2015)

Can Someone Pull a Rabbit Out of a Hat & Save the ACR Passenger Train?


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