# Wisconsin High Speed Rail Stopped



## rtabern

Milwaukee TV station, WITI-TV, FOX 6 just broke in programming with a special report a few minutes ago to announce that the high speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison has been haulted.

www.fox6now.com/news/witi-110410-high-speed-rail-shut-down,0,3275891.story

I hope everyone is happy now! Shame on Wisconsin voters!! We needed this important link between the state's 2 largest cities. I hope everyone will be happy now with the Metra line continuing to end in Kenosha... no high speed rail... trips on the Hiawatha Horizon equipment and its dirty windows... and no early morning or late night service to Chicago... and no service to Madison. 

I am just disgusted!


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## mercedeslove

rtabern said:


> Milwaukee TV station, WITI-TV, FOX 6 just broke in programming with a special report a few minutes ago to announce that the high speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison has been haulted.
> 
> www.fox6now.com/news/witi-110410-high-speed-rail-shut-down,0,3275891.story
> 
> I hope everyone is happy now! Shame on Wisconsin voters!! We needed this important link between the state's 2 largest cities. I hope everyone will be happy now with the Metra line continuing to end in Kenosha... no high speed rail... trips on the Hiawatha Horizon equipment and its dirty windows... and no early morning or late night service to Chicago... and no service to Madison.
> 
> I am just disgusted!



Its sad, but after the outcome of Tuesday's election are you surprised? People went to the polls and have reverted us back to the Bush/Cheney era. So now poor Obama will never be able to clean up the catastrophe (sp) that Bush left behind because we are going back to that disaster. I am sorry it turned out that way, and high speed rail came to a stop before it even left the station. Sadly you can't expect much from those who vote red and not blue. The only people they care about is themselves, they can't see the bigger picture and realize the benefits of high speed rail.

Why because they don't take the train so why should they have to pay for it. Funny thing is I have no kids but I still have to pay taxes that help the local schools.

Any idea of what the status is for high speed in IL from CHI to STL?


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## rrdude

rtabern said:


> Milwaukee TV station, WITI-TV, FOX 6 just broke in programming with a special report a few minutes ago to announce that the high speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison has been haulted.
> 
> www.fox6now.com/news/witi-110410-high-speed-rail-shut-down,0,3275891.story
> 
> I hope everyone is happy now! Shame on Wisconsin voters!! We needed this important link between the state's 2 largest cities. I hope everyone will be happy now with the Metra line continuing to end in Kenosha... no high speed rail... trips on the Hiawatha Horizon equipment and its dirty windows... and no early morning or late night service to Chicago... and no service to Madison.
> 
> I am just disgusted!


Sick is an understatement. Hey! That's a GREAT START to creating jobs, Governor Ass-Hat!


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## AlanB

I'm not sure what's going on, but that story makes no sense and it is very short on details. I think that it's time to just take a deep breath and see what happens. It seems very odd in light of this past weekend's events that they would suddenly do this, at least without some court ordering the shut down, which is something that I'm not even sure if the courts really have any say.

As for Illinois, that work is well under way and they aren't as crazy down there to throw away Federal monies for a viable project and a train that already moves half a million people annually at its current speed.


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## rtabern

AlanB said:


> I'm not sure what's going on, but that story makes no sense and it is very short on details.


According to the TV station, this news broke just about 55 minutes ago. I am hoping they will have more on this tonight on the 5PM news.


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## Guest

rtabern said:


> Milwaukee TV station, WITI-TV, FOX 6 just broke in programming with a special report a few minutes ago to announce that the high speed rail line between Milwaukee and Madison has been haulted.


This TV station really felt that this was *so major* that it could not wait until their regular news programming? :help:


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## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> I'm not sure what's going on, but that story makes no sense and it is very short on details. I think that it's time to just take a deep breath and see what happens. It seems very odd in light of this past weekend's events that they would suddenly do this, at least without some court ordering the shut down, which is something that I'm not even sure if the courts really have any say.
> 
> As for Illinois, that work is well under way and they aren't as crazy down there to throw away Federal monies for a viable project and a train that already moves half a million people annually at its current speed.


Based on the election results and the desire of the incoming administration to cancel the project, the Wisconsin DOT has issued a stop-work order for all on-going work on the rail line, and will not bid or let any additional work for the Milwaukee to Madison rail project. This will limit the finacial exposure of the state for refund to the Federal DOT of HSR grant funds spent. Basically, it appears present Governor Jim Doyle is not going to press ahead with the project given that the only outcome would be additional cost to state taxpayers.


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## mercedeslove

I did some googling and found this

http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/106705698.html


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## Eric S

mercedeslove said:


> Any idea of what the status is for high speed in IL from CHI to STL?


Still full speed ahead for that project. It appears that IL Gov Quinn has be re-elected (well, elected to a full term as governor), meaning there is not likely to be any major change in state support for rail in Illinois.


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## me_little_me

mercedeslove said:


> Its sad, but after the outcome of Tuesday's election are you surprised? People went to the polls and have reverted us back to the Bush/Cheney era. So now poor Obama will never be able to clean up the catastrophe (sp) that Bush left behind because we are going back to that disaster. I am sorry it turned out that way, and high speed rail came to a stop before it even left the station. Sadly you can't expect much from those who vote red and not blue. The only people they care about is themselves, they can't see the bigger picture and realize the benefits of high speed rail.


Unless I'm wrong, newly elected people don't take office for a bit so one has to put the blame on the governor personally for this decision.


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## OlympianHiawatha

What is the expected load factor on a Milwaukee-Madison line? If I recall my Milwaukee Road history, passenger trains that ran that route just prior to Amtrak had only 1 or 2 cars.


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## Devil's Advocate

me_little_me said:


> Unless I'm wrong, newly elected people don't take office for a bit so one has to put the blame on the governor personally for this decision.


What exactly would you have him do to avoid your blame?


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## mercedeslove

daxomni said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I'm wrong, newly elected people don't take office for a bit so one has to put the blame on the governor personally for this decision.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly would you have him do to avoid your blame?
Click to expand...


Exactly, it's being stopped because those who won on Tuesday don't want it.


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## afigg

OlympianHiawatha said:


> What is the expected load factor on a Milwaukee-Madison line? If I recall my Milwaukee Road history, passenger trains that ran that route just prior to Amtrak had only 1 or 2 cars.


If the service had managed to get to the 110 mph max speeds with good travel times to Chicago, it would likely have had pretty good ridership numbers. What Minnesota does about these developments because Madison to Milwaukee to Chicago was supposed to be the first phase of a corridor extending to Minneapolis? I guess do the engineering studies and wait for a new Governor in Wisconsin.

If the $810 million for the Milwaukee to Madison corridor gets returned, then I would hope Secretary LaHood puts the funds towards finishing the improvements for the Chicago-St Louis, Chicago-Detroit, and Chicago-Milwaukee corridors and CREATE projects that directly benefit intercity rail. I think I read that Gov elect Walker said he was not opposed to improving the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor, much of which is in Illinois anyway. Used what funding can be found the next 2-3 fiscal years to focus on getting the Chicago hub bottlenecks fixed, and getting the travel times in those 3 corridors and service frequencies to those called for in the MidWest Regional Rail System plan. Also get the Iowa City service going and improve the St Louis-Kansas City corridor.

If Ohio, Indiana (except for the route running through the state to Michigan), and Wisconsin are not going to participate, spend the funds on the states and cities that will. Then if/when the political climate changes in Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio, the bulk of the work will have been done on the 3 main corridors I listed, so the available funding can be directed to get started on connecting the corridors in the holdout states to an improved Chicago hub.


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## eagle628

I thought the governor just a few days ago signed a contract with the government that bound the state to spend the money...what happened to that?

Politics makes me confused and depressed.


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## Exiled in Express

My read on this was political posturing. Suspend it for a study on the impact of shutting it down and getting the pro-rail group some press time, hopefully forcing the hand of the incoming governor.


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## Green Maned Lion

me_little_me said:


> Unless I'm wrong, newly elected people don't take office for a bit so one has to put the blame on the governor personally for this decision.


Corzine's insistence on racing a half baked, poorly conceived project that threw out all the babies in it in order to preserve the precious bath water cost our state a fortune in contract withdrawals and federal paybacks when Christie (for both the right and wrong reasons) cancelled it. I would say that Doyle is showing an impressive amount of self-hurting responsibility in attempting to save his state's citizens the cost of paying for him stubbornly continuing something he knows will be pulled out at the roots.


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## abcnews

I heard from a source - that if Wisconsin turns dow the federal matching rail dollars, that this may free up some more Federal Rail money, and possibly open the door for Richmond to Raleigh (the old Seaboard main line), which was abandoned. They call it the "S" line. At the moment, CSX (and Amtrak) use the "A" line (former Atlantic Coast Line - main line). But the S line would reduce a lot of miles, perhaps 70 or more miles, and also allow for rather fast speeds (79 mph, or maybe faster) between Richmond and Raleigh.


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## eagle628

Does anyone know what effect this has on the planned Talgo factory in Wisconsin? 'Cause this line was supposed to be buying 60% of its initial production, and the whole point of the factory being in Wisconsin was so Talgo could sell the trainsets for the Hiawathas...not sure if its worth building a new factory for three trainsets.


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## Steve4031

God!! This guy is a raging lunatic. Just don't get it.


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## bretton88

eagle628 said:


> Does anyone know what effect this has on the planned Talgo factory in Wisconsin? 'Cause this line was supposed to be buying 60% of its initial production, and the whole point of the factory being in Wisconsin was so Talgo could sell the trainsets for the Hiawathas...not sure if its worth building a new factory for three trainsets.


Talgo will still build the 2 trainsets for the Hiawatha service and the 2 trainsets for Oregon, but they may shut down after that. They where hoping to get the contract to build the trainsets for the Madison line. Now that looks unlikely.


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## Steve4031

Theoretically, other states could still buy Talgos if I understand correctly. However, since Amtrak has these standardized equipment guidelines, it probably would not happen that way.

Of course I am hoping for more Talgos rather than fewer.


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## tp49

mercedeslove said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I'm wrong, newly elected people don't take office for a bit so one has to put the blame on the governor personally for this decision.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly would you have him do to avoid your blame?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, it's being stopped because those who won on Tuesday don't want it.
Click to expand...

Not at all. In fact the opposite would be true. Outgoing administrations generally try to push through things they want to get done before the new administration comes in. Generally they don't kill things because those who won don't want it.


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## amtrakwolverine

Looks like the nimbys and bananas were the only ones who voted.


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## mercedeslove

amtrakwolverine said:


> Looks like the nimbys and bananas were the only ones who voted.



I know what nimbys are, but what does bananas mean


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## Eric S

mercedeslove said:


> I know what nimbys are, but what does bananas mean


*B*uild *A*bsolutely *N*othing *A*nywhere *N*ear *A*nyone/thing


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## Devil's Advocate

amtrakwolverine said:


> Looks like the nimbys and bananas were the only ones who voted.


I've seen absolutely no evidence of any NIMBY activists trying to block passenger rail with this or any other election. And frankly I'm beginning to wonder how many AU regulars have any clue what NIMBY's are all about.


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## volkris

That's right, the twin notions of, "Don't spend money you don't have," and "Don't take money from the pocket of someone a thousand miles away to pay for your pet project" have made a comeback.

Those maniacs!

In the end, as soon as someone proposes a rational, responsible way to pay for an installation of HSR (or higher speed rail, anyway) then it will be full speed ahead. Making Floridians, Texans, and Californians pay for part of Wisconsin's toys and promising to pull another batch of funding out of the money tree out back just as soon as it sprouts... was not it.


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## Ryan

This was a rational, reasonable way of paying for a project.


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## Guest

volkris said:


> That's right, the twin notions of, "Don't spend money you don't have," and "Don't take money from the pocket of someone a thousand miles away to pay for your pet project" have made a comeback.


All members of Congress, Republican and Democrat, are solidly against "pork".***

** *Except for "pork" going to their own states and districts.


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## Trogdor

volkris said:


> Making Floridians, Texans, and Californians pay for part of Wisconsin's toys and promising to pull another batch of funding out of the money tree out back just as soon as it sprouts... was not it.


That's how every single federally funded project works, and pretty much how every single one has worked since the beginning of federally funded projects.


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## jim hudson

Evidently some folks didnt pay attention in Civics while in school or else watch Fixed news so experts like those air heads they call "reporters" can babble on about Govt. and how it's time to shut it down! Most people who get elected to office are shocked when they take office and have to actually make Government work instead of spouting simplistic and ignorant nonsense like we heard during the last elections! Wonder if those new Governors in Ohio and Wisconsin will turn down all Federal funding and raise taxes on their constituents to pay for such "luxuries" as education, transportation, public safety, food and water inspection etc. etc.?? Just saying!


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## spacecadet

volkris said:


> That's right, the twin notions of, "Don't spend money you don't have," and "Don't take money from the pocket of someone a thousand miles away to pay for your pet project" have made a comeback.
> 
> Those maniacs!
> 
> In the end, as soon as someone proposes a rational, responsible way to pay for an installation of HSR (or higher speed rail, anyway) then it will be full speed ahead. Making Floridians, Texans, and Californians pay for part of Wisconsin's toys and promising to pull another batch of funding out of the money tree out back just as soon as it sprouts... was not it.


If that had been government's attitude over the past 200 years, we'd all still be living in the original 13 colonies and the rest of the country would never have even been settled.

Maybe that wouldn't have been such a bad thing, now that I think about it...


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## dlagrua

In the current economic situation I cannot see a transition to high speed rail happening. The best that we can hope for is a slow transition to high speed rail as we see happening gradually on the NE corridor. If we see some new equipment be happy as thats all we are going to get.


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## WICT106

PRR 60 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what's going on, but that story makes no sense and it is very short on details. I think that it's time to just take a deep breath and see what happens. It seems very odd in light of this past weekend's events that they would suddenly do this, at least without some court ordering the shut down, which is something that I'm not even sure if the courts really have any say.
> 
> As for Illinois, that work is well under way and they aren't as crazy down there to throw away Federal monies for a viable project and a train that already moves half a million people annually at its current speed.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the election results and the desire of the incoming administration to cancel the project, the Wisconsin DOT has issued a stop-work order for all on-going work on the rail line, and will not bid or let any additional work for the Milwaukee to Madison rail project. This will limit the finacial exposure of the state for refund to the Federal DOT of HSR grant funds spent. Basically, it appears present Governor Jim Doyle is not going to press ahead with the project given that the only outcome would be additional cost to state taxpayers.
Click to expand...


Lord Almighty, I hope that you're correct in this assessment. Living in WI, and working on a campaign, it became really tough hearing the constant misinformation ( and the opponents were the least informed ) about this Madison - MKE - Chicago route. So many opponents, so seriously misinformed. I strongly hope and desirtre that Doyle gets this thing back underway ASAP, because Walker, I fear, is going to amek a show out of every excuse to stop it. All the while, there are far, far bigger budget targets for walker to cut, and the bigger targets would make more of an impact than terminating some of these contracts for less than 2/10s of one percent of the WI transportation budget. I'm extremely disappointed, to write the least.  :angry:  :angry:


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## colobok

I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.

So Winsconsin will not be alone.

Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.


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## mercedeslove

Eric S said:


> mercedeslove said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know what nimbys are, but what does bananas mean
> 
> 
> 
> *B*uild *A*bsolutely *N*othing *A*nywhere *N*ear *A*nyone/thing
Click to expand...

Thanks. I was trying to figure it out and couldn't come up with anything.

Stupid idea though because building creates jobs and isn't that what we all want. But instead we are all now going to be standing in line for government cheese just so we can keep gays from getting married and serving in the military, put God in our public schools and cut a few dollars in the budget.

Thing is a lot of the crap they are going to cut would actually lead to more jobs and get people working again, the world is a confusing place.


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## mercedeslove

colobok said:


> I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.
> 
> So Winsconsin will not be alone.
> 
> Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.



I heard that too. I live in Lakeland which would be one of the stops so yeah I am kind of pissed. We are *SO FAR BEHIND* other countries in our public transportation its not even funny.


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## Eric S

colobok said:


> I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.
> 
> So Winsconsin will not be alone.
> 
> Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.


Do you have a source for that? So far, all I have read is that he is not terribly supportive of rail, but not that he had promised a OH/WI-style rejection of federal rail funding.


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## bretton88

Eric S said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.
> 
> So Winsconsin will not be alone.
> 
> Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a source for that? So far, all I have read is that he is not terribly supportive of rail, but not that he had promised a OH/WI-style rejection of federal rail funding.
Click to expand...

His stance has softened lately, especially after the latest round of HSR grants. He said he wouldnt get in the way of it unless Florida got stuck on the hook for the remainder, which the feds very generously gave. So that project is going to happen.


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## colobok

Eric S said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.
> 
> So Winsconsin will not be alone.
> 
> Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a source for that? So far, all I have read is that he is not terribly supportive of rail, but not that he had promised a OH/WI-style rejection of federal rail funding.
Click to expand...

Election results could derail train projects

My link


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## dlagrua

mercedeslove said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that new Gov. of Florida Scott promised to kill Florida High Speed Rail project.
> 
> So Winsconsin will not be alone.
> 
> Chinese build new high speed lines in 20 months, USA will be building them forever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that too. I live in Lakeland which would be one of the stops so yeah I am kind of pissed. We are *SO FAR BEHIND* other countries in our public transportation its not even funny.
Click to expand...

Lets not put all the blame on the government(s). One of the key reasons that U.S. passenger rail travel has not progressed is because of the American peoples love affair with the automobile and with flying. If all Americans were like those on this forum we would have excellent rail service nationwide. However the sad reality is that few appreciate rail travel. If there was a higher demand Amtrak would be forced to react to it and the politicans would have to take notice. While passenger rail travel is growing; compared to other forms of transportation the overall demand remains small and the prices remain high.


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## Devil's Advocate

dlagrua said:


> Lets not put all the blame on the government(s). One of the key reasons that U.S. passenger rail travel has not progressed is because of the American peoples love affair with the automobile and with flying.


We weren't born lovers of automobiles. The "need" to have one was sold to us over the course of decades of aggressive advertising. Our cities were eventually re-developed in ways that promoted if not outright required vehicular ownership. They even passed ordinances that penalized businesses that didn't provide facilities that promoted car-centric living, such as super-sized parking lots. CBS' 60 Minutes program once did a great story on how our street car systems of the past were bought by businesses that were involved in producing automobiles and then quickly dismantled and demolished to artificially increase demand for more cars. Over time we've managed to build an aggressive consumption based economy that is robbing us of good healthcare, good educations, and good infrastructure. As for the American public who suffers under this process? They seem to be none the wiser, forever vacillating between the same two political parties who got us into this mess.


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## Guest

daxomni said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not put all the blame on the government(s). One of the key reasons that U.S. passenger rail travel has not progressed is because of the American peoples love affair with the automobile and with flying.
> 
> 
> 
> We weren't born lovers of automobiles. The "need" to have one was sold to us over the course of decades of aggressive advertising. Our cities were eventually re-developed in ways that promoted if not outright required vehicular ownership. They even passed ordinances that penalized businesses that didn't provide facilities that promoted car-centric living, such as super-sized parking lots. CBS' 60 Minutes program once did a great story on how our street car systems of the past were bought by businesses that were involved in producing automobiles and then quickly dismantled and demolished to artificially increase demand for more cars. Over time we've managed to build an aggressive consumption based economy that is robbing us of good healthcare, good educations, and good infrastructure. As for the American public who suffers under this process? They seem to be none the wiser, forever vacillating between the same two political parties who got us into this mess.
Click to expand...

don't forget that gas is cheap in the US compared with the rest of the world.


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## Ryan

Absolutely amazing.

Govorner-elect Walker has reached out to Talgo to say "Hey guys! You're still going to build your factory here, right???"

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/106790123.html

I like how he's claiming that the "decision isn't final, yet".


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## saxman

Guest said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not put all the blame on the government(s). One of the key reasons that U.S. passenger rail travel has not progressed is because of the American peoples love affair with the automobile and with flying.
> 
> 
> 
> We weren't born lovers of automobiles. The "need" to have one was sold to us over the course of decades of aggressive advertising. Our cities were eventually re-developed in ways that promoted if not outright required vehicular ownership. They even passed ordinances that penalized businesses that didn't provide facilities that promoted car-centric living, such as super-sized parking lots. CBS' 60 Minutes program once did a great story on how our street car systems of the past were bought by businesses that were involved in producing automobiles and then quickly dismantled and demolished to artificially increase demand for more cars. Over time we've managed to build an aggressive consumption based economy that is robbing us of good healthcare, good educations, and good infrastructure. As for the American public who suffers under this process? They seem to be none the wiser, forever vacillating between the same two political parties who got us into this mess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't forget that gas is cheap in the US compared with the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

Yup, when gas was dirt cheap there was no reason anyone thought we should keep our rail system strong. Yet I've heard people estimate the oil prices will start climbing again in the 2011/2012 time frame. Also heard that there might not be as much oil in Alaska as we though there was.

It's rather dissappointing what might happen to the planned rail systems in Wisconsin and Ohio, but its due to these reasons above that more and more people are still going to want trains, conservatives and liberals alike. Yes, there will be gains as well as well setbacks just like any project of this nature. My city continues to lay it's transit system as many other cities are doing. More and more people are riding transit as well as Amtrak and that can't be ignored.

In last Tuesday's election a small suburb of Fort Worth, Richland Hills, voted on whether or not to continue to pay a half cent sales tax to remain a member of the Fort Worth Transportation Authority. Currently they have bus service as well as a commuter rail station on the TRE line between Fort Worth and Dallas. Although the residents of that city voted mostly red, a majority of 62% voted to stay in the "T". Obviously they are beginning to understand the importance of transportation other than that focused on cars and highways.


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## saxman

Here's a couple newspaper surveys on whether Wisconsin should scrap the HSR project. So far it's 53% for keeping the project going. Probably not very scientific, but still shows what people want.

http://www.wisn.com/news/25636317/detail.html

http://www.channel3000.com/news/25635287/detail.html

And here's a website in which you can let your elected officials know your opinion.

http://www.standupfortrains.org


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## BigBlueBuddha

saxman said:


> Here's a couple newspaper surveys on whether Wisconsin should scrap the HSR project. So far it's 53% for keeping the project going. Probably not very scientific, but still shows what people want.
> 
> http://www.wisn.com/news/25636317/detail.html
> 
> http://www.channel3000.com/news/25635287/detail.html
> 
> And here's a website in which you can let your elected officials know your opinion.
> 
> http://www.standupfortrains.org


Thanks for the links, saxman. I used all of them. I edited the basic letter from Stand Up For Trains, tailoring it more to Wisconsin and my local yokels.

On another note, the weird thing about Wisconsin Governor-elect Scott Walker is that he's not against taking the federal money--he just wants to use it on roads. So he's disingenuous when he says that he wants to cut government spending blah blah; he just doesn't want it spent on trains. :wacko:

At least Walker seems to be backing out of his position now, after Doyle made the brilliant move of immediately suspending all ongoing high-speed rail projects. The hue and cry 'twas heard far and wide. . .


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## mercedeslove

Ryan said:


> Absolutely amazing.
> 
> Govorner-elect Walker has reached out to Talgo to say "Hey guys! You're still going to build your factory here, right???"
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/106790123.html
> 
> I like how he's claiming that the "decision isn't final, yet".


*headdesk* I think I'd like to go back to my days as a child where politics didn't matter to me.

This is all just making me so ugh!


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## Green Maned Lion

mercedeslove said:


> *headdesk* I think I'd like to go back to my days as a child where politics didn't matter to me.
> 
> This is all just making me so ugh!


So ugh? Can you be more specific?


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## mercedeslove

Green Maned Lion said:


> mercedeslove said:
> 
> 
> 
> *headdesk* I think I'd like to go back to my days as a child where politics didn't matter to me.
> 
> This is all just making me so ugh!
> 
> 
> 
> So ugh? Can you be more specific?
Click to expand...


It's just stressful and makes me rage, I am still pissed over Tuesdays out come. I liked it when to bed red was just a crayon, not a color I hated.


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## fredevad

Ryan said:


> Absolutely amazing.
> 
> Govorner-elect Walker has reached out to Talgo to say "Hey guys! You're still going to build your factory here, right???"
> 
> http://www.jsonline..../106790123.html
> 
> I like how he's claiming that the "decision isn't final, yet".


What I see here is that Walker has not publicly said the "decision isn't final, yet.", according to the article that's what Talgo reported that Walker told them directly.


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## WICT106

More bad news: Governor Doyle has left the fate of the WI rail extension in Walker's hands. Walker has pledged to kill it. MILW Journal: Canceling train will cost $ 100 million, 400 jobs

It looks like the train is dead. :angry2:


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## John Bredin

WICT106 said:


> More bad news: Governor Doyle has left the fate of the WI rail extension in Walker's hands. Walker has pledged to kill it. MILW Journal: Canceling train will cost $ 100 million, 400 jobs


If you read the linked article, Doyle left the fate of the project in the hands of Walker and U.S. Sec'y of Transport Ray LaHood. That's not leaving it to Walker's tender mercies, that's Doyle saying "it's not my problem anymore, you guys figure it out. By the way, say hello to my little friend :lol: , who'll be taking over my side of the argument."

As the article states, LaHood has called Walker's bluff and stated clearly that if the project is killed, the federal money will not go to roads in Wisconsin but to rail projects in some other state(s). That was Walker's big "out" with the know-nothing portion of the Wisconsin voting public -- "we aren't giving up the money, we're just going to spend it on useful road projects rather than a wasteful rail project that you won't nobody will use  " -- and LaHood has shredded that strawman into so much loose straw.



> It looks like the train is dead. :angry2:


The opera ain't over 'till the fat lady sings. IMHO, we're only at the intermission.


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## fredevad

WICT106 said:


> More bad news: Governor Doyle has left the fate of the WI rail extension in Walker's hands. Walker has pledged to kill it. MILW Journal: Canceling train will cost $ 100 million, 400 jobs


Wow, by my calculations canceling the project amounts to over 13 years of operating costs (at 7.5mil per year) if the project is completed and there is _no_ government help. Doesn't seem like much of a taxpayer savings to me.


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## Devil's Advocate

I'm just glad that our liberal press spelled out to the voters what a pathetic non-savings this is prior to the election. That way they were able to enter the voting booth with all the information necessary to evaluate the rhetoric vs. reality.


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## BigBlueBuddha

The latest update is good! Scott Walker may change his mind! ^_^

JS Online

"Right now I see no scenario where the taxpayers of Wisconsin aren't going to be on the hook for millions of dollars," Walker said. "And to me unless there was an ironclad agreement that showed me otherwise, I'm not interested, and I think the majority of voters of the state made that very clear in the election."

Thus, "an ironclad agreement" would cause Walker to reverse himself!! 

Walker is scheduled to meet with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, a Republican, to discuss the issue.

$100 says that the Milwaukee-Madison train is alive and well. . .


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## Devil's Advocate

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> $100 says that the Milwaukee-Madison train is alive and well.


I'll see your $100 and raise you another $100.


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## PRR 60

daxomni said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> $100 says that the Milwaukee-Madison train is alive and well.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll see your $100 and raise you another $100.
Click to expand...

The cost of canceling the Madison line is less than $15 million. The other nearly $85 million is for improvements to the Milwaukee Station and the Hiawatha line to Chicago. As far as I know, those projects are still being pursued.


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## Tim in Wisconsin

Gov.-Elect Walker's transition office can be reached at 608-261-9200. Live in Wisconsin? Tell his office how much you'd use the train and why it benefits the people of the state. Don't live in Wisconsin? Call anyway, and thank him for sending that money to your state.


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## fredevad

PRR 60 said:


> The cost of canceling the Madison line is less than $15 million. The other nearly $85 million is for improvements to the Milwaukee Station and the Hiawatha line to Chicago. As far as I know, those projects are still being pursued.


I thought it was an all or nothing thing accepting or rejecting the $810 mil stimulus. Are you saying that we can reject only part of the stimulus? If that is true, no one (Walker's or Barrett's campaign) has done a good job of communicating that.

Otherwise, we'll need to repay the $100 mil already spent, plus spend another $85 mil of Wisconsin taxpayer money to complete the Milwaukee Station and Hiawatha projects. So that would mean that it's costing the Wisconsin taxpayers $185 mil, well over 24 years of the annual maintenance cost for the Milwaukee - Madison extension (again assuming no government subsidies).


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## rrdude

Tim in Wisconsin said:


> Gov.-Elect Walker's transition office can be reached at 608-261-9200. Live in Wisconsin? Tell his office how much you'd use the train and why it benefits the people of the state. Don't live in Wisconsin? Call anyway, and thank him for sending that money to your state.


I just called, and a LIVE human answered the phone after just a couple of rings. Didn't ask if I was a resident or where I lived..She said "I will make your concerns known to the incoming Governor..." Whole thing took maybe 45 seconds.

CALL TO ARMS FOR AU MEMBERS / AND POSTERS! Call this number, make your VOICE HEARD!


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## BigBlueBuddha

Tim in Wisconsin said:


> I just called, and a LIVE human answered the phone after just a couple of rings. Didn't ask if I was a resident or where I lived..She said "I will make your concerns known to the incoming Governor..." Whole thing took maybe 45 seconds.


I just called too, spoke to Madeline. I asked that Governor-elect Walker RECONSIDER his position (this lets him seem reasonable) on the train. I stated that I would use the train to commute to Madison (where I work) from Oconomowoc or Watertown and that I-94 was too congested to drive and I couldn't stand buses.

She said she'd convey the message.

My fingers crossed.


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## Green Maned Lion

Governors coming in to office are usually not terribly interested in what anyone has to say. They have 4 years for you to forget the things you don't like that they do in the first few months in office.


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## BigBlueBuddha

Green Maned Lion said:


> Governors coming in to office are usually not terribly interested in what anyone has to say. They have 4 years for you to forget the things you don't like that they do in the first few months in office.


Oh, I won't forget, you can be sure of that.

I didn't vote for him on November 2 and I won't vote for him in 4 years, either.


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## jis

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Governors coming in to office are usually not terribly interested in what anyone has to say. They have 4 years for you to forget the things you don't like that they do in the first few months in office.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I won't forget, you can be sure of that.
> 
> I didn't vote for him on November 2 and I won't vote for him in 4 years, either.
Click to expand...

Which in effect means you have close to zero leverage. At least if you voted for him and hold out the possibility of not doing so the next time, now that is leverage. 

Since you didn't vote for him and are already committed to not vote for him next time, what possible interest would he have in knowing what you think?


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## rrdude

608-261-9200

Guys, I think you are missing the point. They are NOT asking "Did you vote for him?" or "What party are you registered with?" or even "Do you live in Wisconsin?"

SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE GREASE, or at least the consciousness level is raised.

Call the number, and inform them that you ".....Disagree with the Governor's decision NOT to support the MAD-CITY to MILWAUKEE HrSR....."

608-261-9200


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## BigBlueBuddha

jis said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Governors coming in to office are usually not terribly interested in what anyone has to say. They have 4 years for you to forget the things you don't like that they do in the first few months in office.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I won't forget, you can be sure of that.
> 
> I didn't vote for him on November 2 and I won't vote for him in 4 years, either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which in effect means you have close to zero leverage. At least if you voted for him and hold out the possibility of not doing so the next time, now that is leverage.
> 
> Since you didn't vote for him and are already committed to not vote for him next time, what possible interest would he have in knowing what you think?
Click to expand...

Leverage is not a factor unless I choose to reveal how I voted; *you* know I didn't vote for him, but the Governor-Elect does not. To him, I am simply a citizen of Wisconsin expressing what I'd like him to do.

Presumably (unless he is totally disingenuous, which he might be), as governor Walker would be interested in citizen's opinions on issues such as passenger rail.


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## PRR 60

Whether you support rail or not, why would you expect a man who ran for office with a major part of his campaign being a pledge to stop the train, to now change his mind now because a few people call saying they support the train? You could probably get 100,000 people in Madison to call and ask him to continue the project, but there are probably as many people in Green Bay who would call if he, in fact, changed his mind.

The man ran for office pledging to stop the project because, in his mind, $7.5 million per year to operate the line was not justified by the transportation benefit to be provided. He may be right, or he may be wrong, but it really does not matter now. He won. I don't expect him to betray the people who voted for him based on a few phone calls from people who did not. It doesn't take a genius for his office people to figure out the how people calling to keep the train voted in the election. Imagine the opposite: a candidate who ran supporting the train, won the election, and then announced he was going to cancel the project. Now, that would be a reason to call.

In life, you win some, you lose some. Either way, you move on to the next battle.


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## AlanB

PRR 60 said:


> The man ran for office pledging to stop the project because, in his mind, $7.5 million per year to operate the line was not justified by the transportation benefit to be provided.


Personally I think you give him too much credit for actually thinking about the benefits vs. costs. Everything points to him seeing a voter sentiment and picking that hot button issue to ride into office. The only benefits being considered by him regarding the train was whether or not it would get him elected if he choose a side.


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## Devil's Advocate

This is but one of many chances given to us to actually _live_ by the values we claim to support. I would suggest every pro-rail person here ignore the lazy do-nothing naysayers in this thread and take a few minutes to make their voices heard. This is not about what Walker does or doesn't do as it is about what *we* do. Walker may be little more than a spineless sock in the wind sucking up to whichever interests his pollsters and advisors tell him to. But we railfans don't owe our allegiance to anyone but ourselves. Here's yet another opportunity to show our will and determination and push back against the anti-rail crowd. Set aside a couple minutes to call Walker's team and give them a piece of your mind.


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## Tim in Wisconsin

According to my cell phone timer, my phone call took exactly 45 seconds. It takes far more time to type up a response to a discussion board telling people to not call than it takes to actually call. Any Congressional staff member will tell you that they pay far more attention to phone calls than e-mails or letters; no reason to believe that the Governor-Elect behaves differently. At the very least, Walker's office is making tick marks in a pro-rail and anti-rail column. And if you look at their websites, they're adamant about calling in as well.

Again, 608-261-9200. It literally takes less than a minute and costs you effectively nothing.

Tim Wagner

Madison WI


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## AlanB

But I do have to wonder if they might not be using caller ID, in which case they could well dismiss any phone calls not from a Wisconsin area code. Not saying that they are doing that, but it is a possibility that must be considered.


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## BigBlueBuddha

PRR 60 said:


> Whether you support rail or not, why would you expect a man who ran for office with a major part of his campaign being a pledge to stop the train, to now change his mind now because a few people call saying they support the train? You could probably get 100,000 people in Madison to call and ask him to continue the project, but there are probably as many people in Green Bay who would call if he, in fact, changed his mind.
> 
> The man ran for office pledging to stop the project because, in his mind, $7.5 million per year to operate the line was not justified by the transportation benefit to be provided. He may be right, or he may be wrong, but it really does not matter now. He won. I don't expect him to betray the people who voted for him based on a few phone calls from people who did not. It doesn't take a genius for his office people to figure out the how people calling to keep the train voted in the election. Imagine the opposite: a candidate who ran supporting the train, won the election, and then announced he was going to cancel the project. Now, that would be a reason to call.
> 
> In life, you win some, you lose some. Either way, you move on to the next battle.


Ahh. . .but this assumes that there were no reasons to vote for Walker other than opposing the passenger train. It is indeed rare that one agrees with 100% of a candidate's positions, and I suspect there are many who supported Walker but who were not necessarily voting against the train. Witness a very public example in Ron Krueger, the Republican mayor of Watertown, one of the proposed stops between Milwaukee and Madison: Watertown mayor

I agree with you about how he can't seem to betray the people who voted for him, but he also can't afford to appear to be a fool. :wacko:

Walker has publicly stated his condition to move forward, namely, "an ironclad agreement" with the Feds about not having Wisconsin taxpayers pay for operating costs. I suspect that this is how the situation will eventually resolve; if the Feds don't pick up 100%, I'm betting Walker will cave if they match the Hiawatha support level, which is 90%.

Here's hoping!


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## PerRock

AlanB said:


> But I do have to wonder if they might not be using caller ID, in which case they could well dismiss any phone calls not from a Wisconsin area code. Not saying that they are doing that, but it is a possibility that must be considered.


Way around that: use skype to call. It will show up as a restricted, unknown or 000-000-0000 number on caller ID (unless you do have a number attached to your skype).

peter


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## PRR 60

daxomni said:


> ...ignore the lazy do-nothing naysayers in this thread and take a few minutes to make their voices heard.


"Lazy?" "Do-nothing?" "Naysayer?" Hmm. Let me think... I'm not a "naysayer."  Hey, I'm a retiree now (since July). The first two are part of the retiree job description.


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## PRR 60

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> ...Walker has publicly stated his condition to move forward, namely, "an ironclad agreement" with the Feds about not having Wisconsin taxpayers pay for operating costs. I suspect that this is how the situation will eventually resolve; if the Feds don't pick up 100%, I'm betting Walker will cave if they match the Hiawatha support level, which is 90%.
> 
> Here's hoping!


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The fact that the feds (namely Amtrak) might be willing to absorb 90% of the operating deficit of the line came up right before the election. Now, between you and me, I have no idea where that idea came from. If the Hiawatha service does have that deal, it's a great deal - much better than any other state service has. Regardless, I agree that if the feds back up that number with a signed agreement to cover the 20-year must-run obligation, I have no doubt that Mr. Walker would jump on it. Left or right, blue or red, people working are better than people not working (unless you are retired - see my post above  ).

Sadly. I would not hold my breath. If they did that, every other state with supported Amtrak services would demand the same deal. Most pay 100% of any deficit. But, as you said, "Here's hoping!"


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## rrdude

PRR 60 said:


> Whether you support rail or not, why would you expect a man who ran for office with a major part of his campaign being a pledge to stop the train, to now change his mind now because a few people call saying they support the train? You could probably get 100,000 people in Madison to call and ask him to continue the project, but there are probably as many people in Green Bay who would call if he, in fact, changed his mind.
> 
> The man ran for office pledging to stop the project because, in his mind, $7.5 million per year to operate the line was not justified by the transportation benefit to be provided. He may be right, or he may be wrong, but it really does not matter now. He won. I don't expect him to betray the people who voted for him based on a few phone calls from people who did not. It doesn't take a genius for his office people to figure out the how people calling to keep the train voted in the election. Imagine the opposite: a candidate who ran supporting the train, won the election, and then announced he was going to cancel the project. Now, that would be a reason to call.
> 
> In life, you win some, you lose some. Either way, you move on to the next battle.


608-261-9200

Soooooo, politicians "never change their mind" or "go back on their campaign promises"? I think they do, and I usually DON'T like it WHEN they do, nor would this Gov's backers, IF he were to not actively continue his opposition to the train.

But, the facts are this: For any myriad of reasons, politicians DO, and with some frequency, change their mind and/or stances on issues. If my itty-bitty phone call helps in even the slightest way, them I'm making that call......

608-261-9200


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## rrdude

AlanB said:


> But I do have to wonder if they might not be using caller ID, in which case they could well dismiss any phone calls not from a Wisconsin area code. Not saying that they are doing that, but it is a possibility that must be considered.


They'd be hard pressed to make those numbers stick, as people have cell phones, and America is very mobile. I can no longer count on the area code / phone number to predict where the call is coming from, geographically....

Daily, daily, daily, I get phone calls from clients in NJ, who have a "Colorado" area code, same for Michigan --> North Carolina, it goes on an on......


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## Devil's Advocate

rrdude said:


> They'd be hard pressed to make those numbers stick, as people have cell phones, and America is very mobile. I can no longer count on the area code / phone number to predict where the call is coming from, geographically. Daily, daily, daily, I get phone calls from clients in NJ, who have a "Colorado" area code, same for Michigan --> North Carolina, it goes on an on.


You're absolutely right. I get calls from all over the country and even the world that do not reflect the actual origin of the call. You cannot count on the caller ID to mean much of anything. That Californian area code could just as easily have originated in India for all you know. It's true that large scale PBX systems don't typically interface with the same "Caller ID" systems consumer's are familiar with, but that doesn't mean they're any more accurate at determining actual locations in situations like this. It just means they're getting their data from a source that's not as easy to intentionally fake.


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## AlanB

PRR 60 said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Walker has publicly stated his condition to move forward, namely, "an ironclad agreement" with the Feds about not having Wisconsin taxpayers pay for operating costs. I suspect that this is how the situation will eventually resolve; if the Feds don't pick up 100%, I'm betting Walker will cave if they match the Hiawatha support level, which is 90%.
> 
> Here's hoping!
> 
> 
> 
> Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
> 
> The fact that the feds (namely Amtrak) might be willing to absorb 90% of the operating deficit of the line came up right before the election. Now, between you and me, I have no idea where that idea came from. If the Hiawatha service does have that deal, it's a great deal - much better than any other state service has. Regardless, I agree that if the feds back up that number with a signed agreement to cover the 20-year must-run obligation, I have no doubt that Mr. Walker would jump on it. Left or right, blue or red, people working are better than people not working (unless you are retired - see my post above  ).
> 
> Sadly. I would not hold my breath. If they did that, every other state with supported Amtrak services would demand the same deal. Most pay 100% of any deficit. But, as you said, "Here's hoping!"
Click to expand...

I agree, I'm not sure where they came up with that 90% number. Here's what I do see:

First, both Wisconsin & Illinois help to support this train, and it does appear that Amtrak is carrying some of the load too.

Ticket revenues for the train were $13,300,511 for 2009. Total revenue reported however was $22 Million for the train. That means that approximately $8.7M came from some other source, be it some advertising, the limited food service, or subsidies from the two states that sponsor the service. I can't find the story right now, despite looking for it for several minutes, but I seem to recall the Wisconsin Sec Trans saying that they spent either $6M or $7M annually for the Hiawatha's.

That would leave Illinios and incidentals to pick up the rest.

Now, against that $22M in revenue, Amtrak spends $25.2M before depreciation running the service all in. That leaves $3.2M that Amtrak would appear to be picking up. But that's certainly not 90%, not by a long shot.


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## Eric S

Operating costs of the _Hiawatha_s not covered by fares are split between WI & IL, with WI picking up 75% and IL 25%. (That information can be found in the agreement signed between Amtrak and WisDOT.) Recently, it has been reported that the feds pick up 90% of the portion that WI is responsible for paying, but it has never been specified how/why that is the case. Perhaps WI is using CMAQ funds, but I believe those are usually only good for a certain number of years (typically 3, if I'm not mistaken). I seem to recall that Maine used CMAQ funding to pay for _Downeaster_ costs until recently.


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## AlanB

Eric,

I'm not sure if it was CMAQ funds or some other funding source, but the Downeaster was largely subsidized by the Fed for the first 5 years of operations IIRC. That I believe expired last year, perhaps it was 2008, I'm not really sure.

I've no idea if that is indeed what Wisconsin is doing.


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## BigBlueBuddha

daxomni said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> $100 says that the Milwaukee-Madison train is alive and well.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll see your $100 and raise you another $100.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, you will soon owe me $200! :lol: (I kid daxomni)

Walker open to rail

Improvements to the Builder? How about routing it through Madison?


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## Monon81

And after Walker gave that interview with Mike Gousha (story linked in Kwitcherballiakin's post above), he high-tailed it out of town for a Republican governor's meeting.

Meanwhile, at the Talgo plant on the north side of Milwaukee, a rally was held with 200 in attendance.

Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel

And Walker's mouthpiece trotted out the names of the Wisconsin Transportation Builders Association and a couple of construction unions.

Biz Times

The Biz Times, consistently pro-rail, also has five featured blog entries over the last five days.

Sheldon Lubar, a businessman, philanthropist and big name in Milwaukee, who happens to be a Republican, spoke out in favor of rail.

The Business Journal

Walker's transition office phone number was taken off its web page last week.

608-261-9200

Also out on I-94 headed out of Milwaukee, an advert from the Wisconsin Democratic Party:


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## Monon81

The political theater continues in Wisconsin.



> Three Wisconsin Republican congressmen Tuesday introduced a bill that would allow Wisconsin and other states to return federal high-speed rail funds to reduce the federal budget deficit.


the story from Journal-Sentinel

One of the sponsors is Tom Petri, who was for it before he was against it. Watertown, one of the proposed stops, is in Petri's district.



> Before joining GOP colleagues Tuesday in calling high-speed rail a “boondoggle,” Rep. Tom Petri of Fond du Lac co-chaired a bipartisan group of lawmakers last year that sought to bring the project to their home states in the Midwest.


full story

Meanwhile, in North Carolina, Ray LaHood ups the pressure...



> U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said this morning that federal officials would soon announce a grant that could help bring high-speed rail to North Carolina.
> ...
> 
> LaHood said the money could be available because the federal government will reallocate $1.2 billion for high-speed rail projects that had been slated to go to Wisconsin and Ohio.


Charlotte Observer

Similar story from Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel


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## Trogdor

The next episode in the saga:

Bureau lowers cost to run high-speed rail


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## Eric S

Trogdor said:


> The next episode in the saga:
> 
> Bureau lowers cost to run high-speed rail


Estimated annual operating subsidies drop from $7.5 million to $4.7 million. Unfortunately, I doubt this will matter much.

That article also, sort of, explained how WI has been using federal dollars to cover 80-90% of the WI share of operating costs. (Costs not covered by fares are split between WI-75% and IL-25% per the bi-state agreement.) WI has used CMAQ funding in some years and general federal highway/transportation funding in other years.


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## PRR 60

Eric S said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The next episode in the saga:
> 
> Bureau lowers cost to run high-speed rail
> 
> 
> 
> Estimated annual operating subsidies drop from $7.5 million to $4.7 million. Unfortunately, I doubt this will matter much.
> 
> That article also, sort of, explained how WI has been using federal dollars to cover 80-90% of the WI share of operating costs. (Costs not covered by fares are split between WI-75% and IL-25% per the bi-state agreement.) WI has used CMAQ funding in some years and general federal highway/transportation funding in other years.
Click to expand...

Rightly or wrongly, I suspect that opponents of the line will look suspiciously at any dramatic 11th hour reductions of the estimated operating cost. My opinion is that the only hope for this project is getting the federal DOT to step-up and guarantee a relatively low operating cost obligation by the state. It would have to be more tangible than a "maybe" using this plan or that. I don't see that happening.


----------

