# Silver Star Diner



## Rail Freak (Jun 21, 2017)

Does anyone think the SS will ever have a Diner again?


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## greatcats (Jun 21, 2017)

A definite maybe.


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## jis (Jun 21, 2017)

Rail Freak said:


> Does anyone think the SS will ever have a Diner again?


I think eventually it will after we have located the "head extraction from the butt" tool and applied it to Amtrak and its paymasters. It might be a little easier now that Mica has been relegated to the historical garbage dump


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 21, 2017)

There should be enough data comparing the Silver Star to the Silver Meteor by now to draw a conclusion about the merits of returning the diner to the Star. Can anyone present a summary of the pluses and minuses, statistically, for the last year?

I would think that if the Star's data were compelling, then the diner would come off of the Meteor and if the Meteor's data were more favorable, then the Star would get its diner back.

jb


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 21, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> There should be enough data comparing the Silver Star to the Silver Meteor by now to draw a conclusion about the merits of returning the diner to the Star. Can anyone present a summary of the pluses and minuses, statistically, for the last year?
> 
> I would think that if the Star's data were compelling, then the diner would come off of the Meteor and if the Meteor's data were more favorable, then the Star would get its diner back.
> 
> jb


I doubt the SM will lose it's diner even if the SS data is positive. That would cause some passengers to abandon the Florida trains entirely, as there would no longer be a train with a diner. In addition, it would not look good for Amtrak to have all of their brand new diners sitting around in a yard somewhere. I actually believe the "experiment" was just as much about if not more about equipment availability rather than experimenting. Therefore, I do believe the SS will get diners back at some point.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 21, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> There should be enough data comparing the Silver Star to the Silver Meteor by now to draw a conclusion about the merits of returning the diner to the Star. Can anyone present a summary of the pluses and minuses, statistically, for the last year?
> 
> I would think that if the Star's data were compelling, then the diner would come off of the Meteor and if the Meteor's data were more favorable, then the Star would get its diner back.
> 
> jb


I don't think both trains have to be with diner or without diner, I think it's good to have a variety rather than not having either train have a diner or requiring roomette passengers on both trains to have to pay for Amtrak steaks (whether that means no diner or the option to get cheaper roomettes). Assuming we actually get "enough" diners, I don't really see a reason not to use them.

Then again, my bigger fear is no Silver Star (or Silver Meteor) at all.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 21, 2017)

Well, if one is to have a diner and the other not, I would like to see them switch off for a while, since I'm on the SS route.

jb


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## jis (Jun 21, 2017)

I think it is likely that the governing rules that apply to decision making on this matter will change leading to a different decision, depending also on how things unfold in Congress. It is hard to tell what might happen and any determination of rules that the Boardman regime used may already be outdated.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 21, 2017)

In terms of the diners, there wasn't really any "decisions" to make, they just were short on cars. The only questions were which trains would have diners, which would have diner lites, and which would have just a cafe car.


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## jis (Jun 21, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> In terms of the diners, there wasn't really any "decisions" to make, they just were short on cars. The only questions were which trains would have diners, which would have diner lites, and which would have just a cafe car.


People from within Amtrak have communicated to NARP and others that actually there was more to it than that, though, the Diner availability situation presented an opportunity to carry out the experiment. That is what makes the speculation about what will happen next less than so straightforward.


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## Anderson (Jun 21, 2017)

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > In terms of the diners, there wasn't really any "decisions" to make, they just were short on cars. The only questions were which trains would have diners, which would have diner lites, and which would have just a cafe car.
> ...


Basically I've heard that there was a lot of pressure from Congress to try this (and Amtrak seemed to hint that they wanted _negative_ feedback, albeit not in so many words) due to the food service mandates. That plus the messy equipment situation at the time (the long CAF equipment delay was a major problem; the Heritage diners were supposed to be out of service as of several years ago) arguably made the experiment necessary.

The other thing to remember is that whereas a lot of the Meteor's traffic is through-traffic to Florida, the Star has a _lot_ of turnover (MIA-TPA, TPA-ORL, and RGH-north are all big markets for it) while anecdotally even before the change traffic would often be a bit thin between Jacksonville/Savannah and Raleigh.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 21, 2017)

To really do the experiment properly, you would want to run a Silver Star with a diner, but without meals included in the cheaper sleeper fares.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 21, 2017)

Let's say, I'm coming eastbound on the CL (sleeper),connecting to the SS on my way to Florida & we miss the connection. If they put me in a sleeper on that evenings SM, will I be entitled to meals in the Diner?


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## jis (Jun 21, 2017)

One never knows what might happen. It is possible that Amtrak will tenderly ask for the difference in fare and if they can't collect it or they refund the sleeper part of the SS fare and put you in Coach  Or they might just let you ride Sleeper on Sm and eat away. The more fundamental issue might be availability of Sleeper space in SM. It usually runs heavier in Sleeper than SS even though it has one additional car.


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## Railroad Bill (Jun 21, 2017)

Because of a chance of a missed connection from the CL, we have almost always opted to take the Meteor so that we were guaranteed a sleeper to Fla. We thought about trying the diner-less Star this winter just to see whether we liked it or not.
But since we enjoy corking around DC for museums, etc, the extra time and wait for the SM is not a problem.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 21, 2017)

Railroad Bill said:


> Because of a chance of a missed connection from the CL, we have almost always opted to take the Meteor so that we were guaranteed a sleeper to Fla. We thought about trying the diner-less Star this winter just to see whether we liked it or not.
> 
> But since we enjoy corking around DC for museums, etc, the extra time and wait for the SM is not a problem.


Yeah, I feel the same. Plus, if I miss the SS , it's not a given to get a sleeper on the SM!!! I cant do coach over night!!!


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## dlagrua (Jun 23, 2017)

We will never take a long distance trip on a train without a diner. The diner is not only for a sit down meal but provides a break from sitting in your room or in a coach chair. Its has the effect of shortening the trip. If a diner is ever returned to the Silver Star, I hope that the food quality is better than the fodder that they serve on the Cardinal and CONO routes. All the folks that we sat with on our last CZ trip gave thumbs down to the food on those routes.. Actually we believe that the food is passable IF you ask the cook/table server what is good and what isn't? He/she eats that food too so they should know.


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## dogbert617 (Jun 24, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> We will never take a long distance trip on a train without a diner. The diner is not only for a sit down meal but provides a break from sitting in your room or in a coach chair. Its has the effect of shortening the trip. If a diner is ever returned to the Silver Star, I hope that the food quality is better than the fodder that they serve on the Cardinal and CONO routes. All the folks that we sat with on our last CZ trip gave thumbs down to the food on those routes.. Actually we believe that the food is passable IF you ask the cook/table server what is good and what isn't? He/she eats that food too so they should know.


Just out of curiosity, I was wondering how downgraded the food was on the Star, CONO, and Cardinal? It is similar to the cafe cars, but with a few options that are a tad better than typical cafe car fare? Too bad to hear about this, since I was thinking at some point about riding the Cardinal and CONO to try riding those trains for the first time. I guess I should bring a few snacks/food of my own that doesn't require refrigeration(i.e. granola bars), to survive how mediocre the food is on Cardinal and CONO?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 24, 2017)

dogbert617 said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > We will never take a long distance trip on a train without a diner. The diner is not only for a sit down meal but provides a break from sitting in your room or in a coach chair. Its has the effect of shortening the trip. If a diner is ever returned to the Silver Star, I hope that the food quality is better than the fodder that they serve on the Cardinal and CONO routes. All the folks that we sat with on our last CZ trip gave thumbs down to the food on those routes.. Actually we believe that the food is passable IF you ask the cook/table server what is good and what isn't? He/she eats that food too so they should know.
> ...


Everyone has different opinions & about the food on trains, just like for everything in life. Some hate it, some like it & some are ok with it.

You can find the menus for each train on Amtrak's website.


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## Maverickstation (Jun 24, 2017)

As for the Silver Star getting a full diner back, I would not count on it despite the arrival of the Viewliner Diners.

For decades Amtrak has played around with dining service on the Florida trains including one time that full meal service was only offered south of Washington,and another

where they offered "buffet style" service.

As for the Cardinal and the CONO, they have the most limited offering with the CONO southbound the most limited of all.

There are some options that Amtrak should consider from the VIA rail playbook.

The Ocean uses catered food, but it is reheated, plated, and presented on-board, in a traditional diner, with full a wait staff (see pictures below).

The Canadian, the only non-tourist train in North America with a full cooked on board menu, adds a coach class diner during the summer peak only, during the bulk

of the year coach class uses the cafe car which has some entree choices, similar to what was added to to the Silver Star cafe menu.

As for which train will have a full diner restored, my money is on the Lake Shore.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 24, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> As for the Silver Star getting a full diner back, I would not count on it despite the arrival of the Viewliner Diners.
> 
> For decades Amtrak has played around with dining service on the Florida trains including one time that full meal service was only offered south of Washington,and another
> 
> ...


The LSL is almost certainly getting it's diners back; that does not stop the Cardinal or SS from also getting new diners.


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## keelhauled (Jun 24, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dogbert617 said:
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> 
> > dlagrua said:
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When I traveled on the Cardinal earlier this year I was perfectly happy with the lunch and dinner selections, but the omelet was the only Amtrak meal I have had that was truly awful.


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## dogbert617 (Jun 25, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dogbert617 said:
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> > dlagrua said:
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I was eventually going to see what the menu was showing up as for each of these 3 trains, on Amtrak's website. It is a bummer to hear it has food service that's been downgraded from a full service dining car, since it was one of those long distance trains I was eventually thinking about riding at some point. I'm sure I'll find a way to deal with it somehow, though.



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> > As for the Silver Star getting a full diner back, I would not count on it despite the arrival of the Viewliner Diners.
> ...


Thought it was just Cardinal, CONO, and Silver Star that had lost their full service dining car? I forgot LSL had lost their dining car, for whatever odd reason. At least Capitol Limited which I was seriously considering riding at some point, still has a full service dining car. Ditto with the Crescent, from what I hear.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 25, 2017)

dogbert617 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
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> 
> > dogbert617 said:
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LSL lost its full diner when the heritage diners numbers dropped. It has less meals affected than the SM & Crescent. It will most likely get full diners back once the SM & Crescent have all the new diners they need.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 25, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> As for the Silver Star getting a full diner back, I would not count on it despite the arrival of the Viewliner Diners.


If that comes true, wouldn't Amtrak then have to explain to Congress that they bought too many new Diners, and why there is a full set of new Diners sitting in a yard rusting away?


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## Maverickstation (Jun 25, 2017)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> > As for the Silver Star getting a full diner back, I would not count on it despite the arrival of the Viewliner Diners.
> ...


OMG, the drama here, if the Lake Shore, crescent, and the Meteor get the new diners you are not going to have a line of unused ones. Further congress could care less if there are surplus diners.


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## IndyLions (Jun 25, 2017)

> When I traveled on the Cardinal earlier this year I was perfectly happy with the lunch and dinner selections, but the omelet was the only Amtrak meal I have had that was truly awful.


Knowing how the food is prepared, and using common sense helps you make the best of a bad situation.

Some foods (like omelettes) just can't be good reheated. Sad to see they switched out the cinnamon roll in the continental breakfast - it was delicious. Yes - completely unhealthy - but I made up for it by reducing calories and going healthy on my next non-train meal. Not sure how good reheated French toast is - it wasn't available a few weeks ago.

For lunch, I'd stick with the fresh marketplace sandwich. I had a Cuban that was quite good (relatively speaking).

As far as dinner goes - someone will need to try the latest menu and report back.


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## dlagrua (Jun 25, 2017)

dogbert617 said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > We will never take a long distance trip on a train without a diner. The diner is not only for a sit down meal but provides a break from sitting in your room or in a coach chair. Its has the effect of shortening the trip. If a diner is ever returned to the Silver Star, I hope that the food quality is better than the fodder that they serve on the Cardinal and CONO routes. All the folks that we sat with on our last CZ trip gave thumbs down to the food on those routes.. Actually we believe that the food is passable IF you ask the cook/table server what is good and what isn't? He/she eats that food too so they should know.
> ...


Having eaten it many times the food service on the Card and CONO are basically pre-cooked meals that the server/cook pops in a convection oven to re-heat. The diner is basically a cafe car with a convection over and cold storage for meals. I would say that it's better than no food service at all but sub par when compared to what is served on the full diner trains. Some items on those menus are not good, while others are passable. Kind of like eating a TV dinner but much of it depends on how long the meals are reheated. On one trip we had sausage and eggs for breakfast and the eggs were hard and rubbery. On a trip the following year we had an omelet that was soft and moist. If we take those trains again we will just ask the server what is good. Amtrak is also not doing its passengers much good when a single food server has the kitchen and serving duties for the entire train. That poor soul has to serve over 100+ people. I believe that it is possible that we may see a diner on the Card, CONO and Silver Star again when the full order of dining cars is delivered.


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 25, 2017)

Equipment is NOT the problem on the CONO, just the management decision to eliminate the cost of the Chef for that train. CONO is Superliner equipment. Once the order of VL DC are delivered, then it is very likely the overnight single level LD trains will have a new DC. If all these trains have full service, then I would hope the CONO would see its Chef rehired.


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## A Voice (Jun 25, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
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> > Maverickstation said:
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Maverickstation said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
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> > Maverickstation said:
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So, exactly how many cars would have to be surplus to constitute a "line" ?

Not counting spares, the_ Meteor_,_ Lake Shore_, and _Crescent_ require just eleven dining cars. There are 25 on order, which is just about the correct number to cover the above trains plus the _Silver Star_ and _Cardinal_.

No, Congress doesn't care about surplus diners. But would you want to be the one explaining to a (often critical) Congressional committee why you're asking for several hundred million in additional funding to buy new equipment when you already have brand new cars parked and no use for them?


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## Skyline (Jun 27, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dogbert617 said:
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> > AmtrakBlue said:
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Did the NYP>CHI section of the LSL lose its full diner, or just the BOS>CHI section?


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## jis (Jun 27, 2017)

Skyline said:


> Did the NYP>CHI section of the LSL lose its full diner, or just the BOS>CHI section?


Boston section has never had a full Diner. It had a full Cafe/Lounge (Amfleet II Dinette). That has been replaced by a Amfleet I Cafe-Club providing BC service in half the car.
New York Section has had its full Diner temporarily replaced by a Amfleet II Dinette pending the arrival of adequate number of Viewliner II Diners.


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## tim49424 (Jun 27, 2017)

keelhauled said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
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> 
> > dogbert617 said:
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Agreed about the omelet. Last fall when I rode the Cardinal. I ordered it thinking "How can anything go wrong with eggs?". That's how. Next time I ride an eastern LD train, it'll be one of the other options I order.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 27, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Everyone has different opinions & about the food on trains, just like for everything in life. Some hate it, some like it & some are ok with it.


 This is true, but the people who tend to dislike the food seem to do a much better job of taking the time to describe what precisely failed to impress while the average pro-Amchow post often regurgitates vague generalities about everything always being good/great.



Maverickstation said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
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> 
> > Maverickstation said:
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 Congress could indeed care less about Amtrak wasting money. In fact they could care a whole lot less. In the specific case of expensive hardware ordered and manufactured just to be dragged off and mothballed again, congress would actually be _right_ to be critical.



Lonestar648 said:


> Equipment is NOT the problem on the CONO, just the management decision to eliminate the cost of the Chef for that train. CONO is Superliner equipment. Once the order of VL DC are delivered, then it is very likely the overnight single level LD trains will have a new DC.


I haven't seen the lower level of a Superliner diner in many years. Has anyone confirmed they all still have fully stocked and fully functional kitchens down there? Seems just as likely that some of the kitchen hardware may have deteriorated over time or have been removed or cannibalized to repair failures in other cars.


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## tommylicious (Jun 27, 2017)

it's shameful for any LD train to not have a proper diner car serving cooked to order food. we refuse to ride on any that don't.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 1, 2017)

tommylicious said:


> it's shameful for any LD train to not have a proper diner car serving cooked to order food. we refuse to ride on any that don't.


Yeah it'd suck, but for whatever reason(mainly scenery-related) I am intrigued about riding a few of those lines that don't have a full diner(mainly CONO and Cardinal). I'd be sure to bring enough of my own food, to less have to deal with the subpar food that'll be served from the cafe car on those lines!

I wonder if anyone has ever called in an order from a close nearby restaurant(or any other eatery) at any of those longer stops(i.e. Memphis), and met up platform side(or streetside) to bring the food back onto the train? I read an online report about someone who surprisingly did that, with a restaurant/bar in Michigan City, IN! And as far as I know, I didn't think that was an extended stop where the Amtrak crew changed, or the train did any servicing(unlike say Battle Creek, where that does happen).


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jul 16, 2017)

I'm guessing that many of you who refuse to ride a diner less car have stopped riding the SS.The lack of a diner car would not stop me from riding any LD train, I went from the East Coast to California and back and did not eat one diner car meal. I also like the idea of getting a room without having to pay for the cost of two person's meals when I am traveling alone (and I often eat just two meals a day). The one concern I would have would be if an entire train's passengers had to eat in the cafe car the lines could be really long, especially at traditional meal times. I know at the beginning of the SS switchover these lines were really long, have they gotten better since then?


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 17, 2017)

It would be nice if they removed the cost of the food from the sleepers, so the sleepers are cheaper, and the sleeper pax pay for their food. I'd suppose some passengers just want a bed to sleep in at night, and they don't need to eat in the diner car.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2017)

maxbuskirk said:


> It would be nice if they removed the cost of the food from the sleepers, so the sleepers are cheaper, and the sleeper pax pay for their food. I'd suppose some passengers just want a bed to sleep in at night, and they don't need to eat in the diner car.


This!
That's the Historic Model that was used up until the time Amtrak started including meals in the Diner with the Sleeping Car Charge.


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## ehbowen (Jul 18, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> maxbuskirk said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice if they removed the cost of the food from the sleepers, so the sleepers are cheaper, and the sleeper pax pay for their food. I'd suppose some passengers just want a bed to sleep in at night, and they don't need to eat in the diner car.
> ...


That change was made back in the Claytor years in an attempt to force some money into the dining service budget. Before the "inclusion" (forced prepayment) of dining car meals, so few passengers—both coach and sleeper—were eating in the dining car that dining service was in very real danger of being axed across the board. And dining car food back in the Claytor years was pretty doggone good....


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## A Voice (Jul 18, 2017)

maxbuskirk said:


> It would be nice if they removed the cost of the food from the sleepers, so the sleepers are cheaper, and the sleeper pax pay for their food. I'd suppose some passengers just want a bed to sleep in at night, and they don't need to eat in the diner car.


Amtrak has a finite supply of sleeper rooms, so from a revenue perspective it makes sense to price them at the highest point the market will bear. That premium price includes meals which, as already noted, are also tied up with the dining car budget.

Amidst all the talk of a less expensive coach configuration, I have to wonder about the potential of a premium-coach _option_ with meals and other amenities included similar to sleepers which would, again, benefit the often attacked economics of the diner.


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## ehbowen (Jul 18, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Amidst all the talk of a less expensive coach configuration, I have to wonder about the potential of a premium-coach _option_ with meals and other amenities included similar to sleepers which would, again, benefit the often attacked economics of the diner.


I like that idea, but I'm not sure how to work it with the demands that are already placed on diner LSAs. The most practical way I can think of would be a coupon which could be presented to the diner crew for meals and to the lounge attendant for coffee & tea and scanned or punched to prevent fraudulent re-use. Perhaps if you booked on-line in advance you could print your own coupon with a barcode for scanning, and if you booked at the last minute from an unstaffed station the conductor could be issued a few paper blanks which could be punched to validate them and to "X out" the meals which were not applicable.


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## Triley (Jul 18, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > Amidst all the talk of a less expensive coach configuration, I have to wonder about the potential of a premium-coach _option_ with meals and other amenities included similar to sleepers which would, again, benefit the often attacked economics of the diner.
> ...


We have nothing to scan barcodes with for verification, and you'd have to ensure that devices had a signal all the time to provide actual verification.

There would be nothing wrong with treating it like business class. Show you me your printed ticket or e-ticket on your phone that says the words "business class" with today's train number and date, and you're all set.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2017)

I was thinking exactly that. For inventory accounting purposes you could also obtain a signature on a slip like they do for non alcoholic beverages other than coffee, tea and water, in the Business Class on the Missouri State funded Amtrak River Runner Service


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## RPC (Jul 19, 2017)

Here's a thought experiment...say you want to go NYP-MIA. It would technically be possible to take the Palmetto NYP-RVR, get lunch trackside, take the Carolinian RVR-CYN (or Raleigh), have a leisurely supper, then board your roomette in the Silver Star. Get off in Lakeland and get lunch while the Star trundles to Tampa and back, then reboard coach to MIA. (I actually suggested this to my family when we considering a Florida vacation this year - to say it got vetoed would be putting it mildly!)(The part about stopping for four hours in Raleigh or Cary intrigues me, though - there are some decent restaurants within walking distance of those stations.)


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 19, 2017)

RPC said:


> Here's a thought experiment...say you want to go NYP-MIA. It would technically be possible to take the Palmetto NYP-RVR, get lunch trackside, take the Carolinian RVR-CYN (or Raleigh), have a leisurely supper, then board your roomette in the Silver Star. Get off in Lakeland and get lunch while the Star trundles to Tampa and back, then reboard coach to MIA. (I actually suggested this to my family when we considering a Florida vacation this year - to say it got vetoed would be putting it mildly!)(The part about stopping for four hours in Raleigh or Cary intrigues me, though - there are some decent restaurants within walking distance of those stations.)


What was your plan if the Palmetto broke down somewhere and the Carolinian passed it? Or if Carolinian broke down before you boarded it?

jb


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## jis (Jul 19, 2017)

There's always the Star coming behind the Carolinian. And worst case there is the Palmetto of the next day or earlier than that, the Meteor as your abort capsule


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## me_little_me (Jul 19, 2017)

RPC said:


> Here's a thought experiment...say you want to go NYP-MIA. It would technically be possible to take the Palmetto NYP-RVR, get lunch trackside, take the Carolinian RVR-CYN (or Raleigh), have a leisurely supper, then board your roomette in the Silver Star. Get off in Lakeland and get lunch while the Star trundles to Tampa and back, then reboard coach to MIA. (I actually suggested this to my family when we considering a Florida vacation this year - to say it got vetoed would be putting it mildly!)(The part about stopping for four hours in Raleigh or Cary intrigues me, though - there are some decent restaurants within walking distance of those stations.)


Cary station is just a block or so from a few restaurants. We walked around while waiting for our train. Not much in the way of nice places in our short walk but it was hot and sticky that day. Not a lot of downtown.

The existing Raleigh station from my memory was in a dumpy industrial area. I believe the new station will have lots of new development around it.


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## jis (Jul 19, 2017)

But from Raleigh Station the free downtown circulator bus stop is just two blocks away, and there are literally dozens of good eateries on its route. It also runs pretty frequently even on weekends.


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## Woodcut60 (Jul 20, 2017)

I missed the Dining Car experience badly when I rode this train last year. The food from the Café Car was awful.


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## jis (Jan 4, 2020)

Seems appropriate to bring this thread back from zombieland with the missives that an internal Wiki post has apparently appeared within Amtrak talking about initiation of Sleeper Lounge Service with Flexible Dining for Sleeper passengers on the Silver Star starting May 1, 2020. Awaiting a more public announcement at some point.

This apparently includes adding a VL II Diner to the consist.

That would leave only the Cardinal among the overnight eastern trains without a VL II Diner, unless that has already been added to it or happens to be something that is added to it mid-year this year.

Interestingly, back in 2017 absolutely no one had come remotely close to guessing what would happen by 2019/2020!


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 4, 2020)

jis said:


> Seems appropriate to bring this thread back from zombieland with the missives that an internal Wiki post has apparently appeared within Amtrak talking about initiation of Sleeper Lounge Service with Flexible Dining for Sleeper passengers on the Silver Star starting May 1, 2020. Awaiting a more public announcement at some point.
> 
> This apparently includes adding a VL II Diner to the consist.
> 
> ...


So, Amtrak will be able to Raise the Cost of Rail Fare and Accommodations back to those charged on the Meteor when this happens right?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 4, 2020)

jis said:


> Interestingly, back in 2017 absolutely no one had come remotely close to guessing what would happen by 2019/2020!



Actually some of us did.... we were told we were over reacting.


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## lordsigma (Jan 4, 2020)

As much as contemporary dining is lame, this is ok news. It’s better than being the starvation. I am still trying to be optimistic that they will further improve flex dining. They have reintroduced hot meals and dumped the boxes based on customer reviews... so it’s not impossible that further improvements can at least make this acceptable for one night trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 4, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> As much as contemporary dining is lame, this is ok news. It’s better than being the starvation. I am still trying to be optimistic that they will further improve flex dining. They have reintroduced hot meals and dumped the boxes based on customer reviews... so it’s not impossible that further improvements can at least make this acceptable for one night trains.


 I would actually prefer saving a little money and purchasing food and drink from the cafe. At least I’m only paying for items I want to eat.

The microwave dinners are really quite poor quality.


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## lordsigma (Jan 4, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would actually prefer saving a little money and purchasing food and drink from the cafe. At least I’m only paying for items I want to eat.
> 
> The microwave dinners are really quite poor quality.


So is the consensus that total elimination of the dining cars and only the cafe car availability is actual preferable to what Amtrak is offering? I haven't had the meals yet so I can't speak definitively.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 4, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> So is the consensus that total elimination of the dining cars and only the cafe car availability is actual preferable to what Amtrak is offering? I haven't had the meals yet so I can't speak definitively.



I’m actually pretty 50/50 on it. On the one hand, it’s nice to have the “sleeper lounge” space to eat in. The free drinks are nice, and you are still sort of served food. I mean waiting in the diner for your order to be called is a little better than waiting in the line in the cafe. 

The options are just so limited. In the cafe I can at least pick things I can actually eat. The Amtrak full service dining car has plenty of options for me, but the contemporary dining is pretty limiting.


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## Qapla (Jan 4, 2020)

It would be nice if they could offer two different fares for sleepers .... one fare for those who want food included and a cheaper fare for those who would rather bring their own or buy on-board from the cafe.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Actually some of us did.... we were told we were over reacting.



I don’t recall anyone mentioning Sleeper Lounge.


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## lordsigma (Jan 5, 2020)

I guess all we can do is hope they improve the offerings. It at least seems to be an improvement over the initial flex dining (with the cold boxes and the breakfast sugar bomb box.) so hopefully they will be open to further improvements. still a huge amount of room for improvement though. I will find out for myself later this year on my first cross country Amtrak trip where my first leg is the lake shore.


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## west point (Jan 5, 2020)

Amtrak does not explain why coach passengers cannot prepay for eating in the diner ?


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## lordsigma (Jan 5, 2020)

west point said:


> Amtrak does not explain why coach passengers cannot prepay for eating in the diner ?



That is apparently coming eventually but it hasn’t happened yet


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## the_traveler (Jan 5, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> That is apparently coming eventually but it hasn’t happened yet


Just like the “cash & points awards” that were “promised” when AGR 2.0 began YEARS ago?


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## MARC Rider (Jan 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would actually prefer saving a little money and purchasing food and drink from the cafe. At least I’m only paying for items I want to eat.
> 
> The microwave dinners are really quite poor quality.


Actually, the quality of the Contemporary Flex meals, though they could be better, is better than what is offered in the cafe car. 

Also, I appreciated having the dedicated lounge space for sleeper passengers. On my last trip (on the Cardinal), dedicating half the cafe car for this purpose was adequate, because we only had 12 people in the sleeper. But on a train that was more crowded (like I would expect the Silvers to be), I would prefer to have that V2 diner-lounger. It also frees up lounge space for the coach passengers.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 6, 2020)

Would it be all that difficult to charge a set price for the accommodations, and a separate charge for meals? I really like that idea.
Whatever they end up doing, if they could just ensure they stock enough of whatever the food is, for the people who are paying for it. If sleeper car passengers are told there are breakfast sandwiches available, it's really not OK to run out of them by 6:30, when meals were included in the fare.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 6, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, the quality of the Contemporary Flex meals, though they could be better, is better than what is offered in the cafe car.


Depends on the cafe car I suppose. For instance I'd put the NEC, Cascades, and Downeaster cafe cars above Anderson's flexi-con meals.



Michigan Mom said:


> Would it be all that difficult to charge a set price for the accommodations, and a separate charge for meals? I really like that idea.


I have no doubt that Amtrak can remove meals from the current sleeper price and start charging extra again like they did in the past. I'm not sure what benefit that would bring us or why we would prefer to pay more or receive less when you could simply ignore the meals instead, but I'm sure Amtrak can oblige. My hope is that we can improve future meal quality as part of the base sleeper price again sometime in the future. Once meals are separated from sleeper accommodation the pressure to remove dining cars altogether is likely to skyrocket. Once that happens there will be very little motivation to ever bring them back again.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 6, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, the quality of the Contemporary Flex meals, though they could be better, is better than what is offered in the cafe car.
> 
> Also, I appreciated having the dedicated lounge space for sleeper passengers.



I personally disagree with the quality. I tried the shrimp and the beef (the only 2 I can eat) and I thought they were both cheap TV dinner quality. Depending on the train and the menu, I’ve had some pretty good items from the cafe car including some good salads.

I do agree with the “sleeper lounge” space. On the single level trains the cafe is usually very crowded so having a place to sit and relax and eat / drink coffee is nice.


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## jis (Jan 6, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Yes, Amtrak can remove meals from the current sleeper price and start charging extra again like they did before. I'm not sure what benefit that would bring us or why we would prefer to pay more or receive less but I'm sure Amtrak can oblige.


Personally, I think it was better when meals were not included in the fare and I would not mind it going back to that. Since I seldom have the stomach for the three meals included, and in case of Roomettes, the 6 meals per day presumptively included in the fare, I think it would be a win for me. The situation may be different for others.

I remember when the inclusion in fare took place, I stopped traveling by Sleeper and stuck to Slumbercoach where this inclusion did not apply. Then when the Slumbercoaches went away I stopped traveling overnight LD by Amtrak for many years. Then I got back to some use of Amtrak mainly for getting to OTOL Fests and AU Gatherings, mostly for the company. I did travel by Sleeper when I could manage to get my employer to pay for it too, which was few and far between. Today the same situation continues, except that I don't have any employers anymore. 

So, for my personal purposes the food that is served on Amtrak and has been since the late '90s is simply not worth the extra fare that is added on for it. Again the situation would most likely be different for someone using the Roomette for two people etc.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 6, 2020)

jis said:


> Personally, I think it was better when meals were not included in the fare and I would not mind it going back to that. Since I seldom have the stomach for the three meals included, and in case of Roomettes, the 6 meals per day presumptively included in the fare, I think it would be a win for me. The situation may be different for others...So, for my personal purposes the food that is served on Amtrak and has been since the late '90s is simply not worth the extra fare that is added on for it.


I see your point, but in order for such a change to be a win I'd first have to believe that Anderson would be willing to substantially reduce sleeper fares in conjunction with removing meals. I do not believe that to be true. In my view the loss of included meals would most likely lead to the eventual loss of dining cars which would put even more pressure on long distance travelers to either stay home or choose another form of transit. I do not consider that to be a win.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 6, 2020)

I don't follow that if the pricing was separate, it would result in pressure to remove the dining cars. What's the reasoning?
There has to be some variety of F/B available on any train. And for LD trips it has to be sufficient for the journey.
The optimist in me likes to hope that if they had a better idea who was interested in paying extra for the meal service.... and who wasn't... that Amtrak could actually PLAN the diner service better, which would include the coach passengers. They could have the correct number of entrees and enough staff.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 6, 2020)

Michigan Mom said:


> I don't follow that if the pricing was separate, it would result in pressure to remove the dining cars. What's the reasoning?


The reasoning is that very few travelers are likely to pay extra for Anderson's flexi-con pantry meals. In theory the dining car meals could be improved (at higher cost) but according to Anderson the new flexi-con meals are already an improvement over the previous meals. If relatively few travelers are willing to pay for meals then from Anderson's perspective what purpose would the dining car serve? Does anything about Anderson seem like the kind of person who keeps amenities around just because of railroad tradition? Does anyone really believe a Board of Directors who hired someone like Anderson is going to replace him with someone completely different the next time around? Once the dining cars are removed from active service the barrier to reentry is likely to be extremely high. In other words, when they're gone they are likely to be gone for good. As with so many aspects of Amtrak, just because it's bad now doesn't mean it can't get worse. The hope is that we can weather the likes of Anderson and Gardner with meals (and miles) remaining intact and then try to move in a more positive direction if and when a better board can be brought in with fewer Mica Meal rules.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 6, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Once the dining cars are removed from active service the barrier to reentry is likely to be extremely high. In other words, when they're gone they are likely to be gone for good.


 Which is why the physical diners returning to the Star is a good thing. As long as the physical diners are on the train there is hope for some form of dining car service to return. If the physical cars get retired / sold there is no hope. 

I realize crew has been laid off, commisaries closed etc. - it's not like there will be a quick turn around but there is hope for something. 

I continue to say I'm ok with the current service model, even though it is not ideal. What I am not ok with is the food quality and amount of options.


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## lordsigma (Jan 6, 2020)

The one million dollar question is will the diner be deployed as it is on the meteor - exclusively serving sleeper passengers? Or will this be the long rumored single food service car? It is interesting that this is 5 months out. If they are indeed going to trial a VL2 diner reconfigured to serve as a “single food service car” with this, it would probably replace the cafe car entirely and if they convert these diners into all around food service cars and get rid of the cafes it would be very hard to go back to the old way of doing things with a diner and a cafe car.


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## LookingGlassTie (Jan 6, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> The one million dollar question is will the diner be deployed as it is on the meteor - exclusively serving sleeper passengers? Or will this be the long rumored single food service car? It is interesting that this is 5 months out. If they are indeed going to trial a VL2 diner reconfigured to serve as a “single food service car” with this, it would probably replace the cafe car entirely and if they convert these diners into all around food service cars and get rid of the cafes it would be very hard to go back to the old way of doing things with a diner and a cafe car.


That IS a good question!


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## pennyk (Jan 6, 2020)

In early October, I was on the Silver Meteor and several managers were on board. One of the managers worked the Silver Star. At that time, he stated that flex dining would be coming to the Silver Star, but a Viewliner Diner/Sleeper Lounge would not. He stated that the cafe car would be a single food service car with one half for coach passengers and one half for sleeper passengers. Since I heard this in early October, things may have changed.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 6, 2020)

pennyk said:


> In early October, I was on the Silver Meteor and several managers were on board. One of the managers worked the Silver Star. At that time, he stated that flex dining would be coming to the Silver Star, but a Viewliner Diner/Sleeper Lounge would not. He stated that the cafe car would be a single food service car with one half for coach passengers and one half for sleeper passengers. Since I heard this in early October, things may have changed.



Sad news 

How many sleepers does the Star usually run with?


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## jis (Jan 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How many sleepers does the Star usually run with?


Two


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## lordsigma (Jan 6, 2020)

I wouldn’t be surprised if they do it with a “half” cafe car either. Anything with the VL2s May be longer term, but I guess we’ll see. If they are going to a single food car it does make sense to eventually modify the diners for this purpose. These are brand new cars. Otherwise you’re basically going to end up scrapping the brand new dining cars and having to order more food service cars as part of the Amfleet 2 order. However if they feel the amfleet diner lite is the ideal setup and the VL2 diners can’t be modified to a format acceptable for them then maybe it is inevitable that the diners will be parked or forever serve as axle counts and they’ll have to order new food cars as part of the amfleet 2 replacement.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2020)

Note Augusta & Columbus 
This was posted today in the Just the Facts thread


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 7, 2020)

jis said:


> Seems appropriate to bring this thread back from zombieland with the missives that an internal Wiki post has apparently appeared within Amtrak talking about initiation of Sleeper Lounge Service with Flexible Dining for Sleeper passengers on the Silver Star starting May 1, 2020. Awaiting a more public announcement at some point.
> 
> This apparently includes adding a VL II Diner to the consist.
> 
> ...



So those currently booked on the Star in sleeper accommodations for travel after May 1, 2020 will be getting free meal service, since we know from past experience that Amtrak doesn't change pricing for service changes after booking. I'd say it's nice for the customer to win for a change, but flex dining is no prize.


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## lordsigma (Jan 7, 2020)

They have made changes to it based on customer feedback so it’s not impossible that it will eventually get to the point where it’s an acceptable product. I would keep the comments going to customer relations about which menu items are ok and which are terrible. This sort of meal service could be acceptable with the right improvements - this sort of meal service works for most people on some airlines and also on Acela first.


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## me_little_me (Jan 7, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, the quality of the Contemporary Flex meals, though they could be better, is better than what is offered in the cafe car.
> 
> Also, I appreciated having the dedicated lounge space for sleeper passengers. On my last trip (on the Cardinal), dedicating half the cafe car for this purpose was adequate, because we only had 12 people in the sleeper. But on a train that was more crowded (like I would expect the Silvers to be), I would prefer to have that V2 diner-lounger. It also frees up lounge space for the coach passengers.


Not to everyone. On our four "Flecks dining" rides, I saw multiple sleeper passengers buying food in the cafe to eat in the Dinnerless Lounge, particularly the millennials that supposedly wanted it. Even my wife, on one meal, just couldn't stand it any more and bought lunch in the cafe. I was too cheap to do so.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 7, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Not to everyone. On our four "Flecks dining" rides, I saw multiple sleeper passengers buying food in the cafe to eat in the Dinnerless Lounge, particularly the millennials that supposedly wanted it. Even my wife, on one meal, just couldn't stand it any more and bought lunch in the cafe. I was too cheap to do so.


 Agreed. Here is the current (???) national cafe menu. Even if we just look at breakfast you can get a breakfast bowl, which I believe is Gluten Free so that's a hot breakfast item available for those of us who can't eat gluten. (Actually I may buy one on my next LD trip... it would definitely compliment the yogurt and cheerios I can get.) 

For lunch / dinner you have sandwiches, burgers, garden salad, chicken wings, and mac n cheese. Plus some nice snacks like hummus and chips, cheese and cracker plate etc.

The last "meal" i had in a cafe car was years ago and it was the veggie burger and I feel it was about equal to the quality of the hot entrees in the flex dining. That's my experience though.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...ts/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1119.pdf


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## drfonta (Jan 8, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> So those currently booked on the Star in sleeper accommodations for travel after May 1, 2020 will be getting free meal service, since we know from past experience that Amtrak doesn't change pricing for service changes after booking. I'd say it's nice for the customer to win for a change, but flex dining is no prize.


Funny. I booked an SS bedroom for me, wife and 4 year old for our July vacation. Southbound the Star is a better schedule for us. Plan was to pack for the trip with snacks/sandwiches/ramen etc and buy from the cafe car as needed. Will still pack some stuff anyway, but I do see that May 1 is the date on the Amtrak site..


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 8, 2020)

drfonta said:


> Funny. I booked an SS bedroom for me, wife and 4 year old for our July vacation. Southbound the Star is a better schedule for us. Plan was to pack for the trip with snacks/sandwiches/ramen etc and buy from the cafe car as needed. Will still pack some stuff anyway, but I do see that May 1 is the date on the Amtrak site..



You will be a test subject then.....let us know if you hear anything from Amtrak about changes to your fare for addition of meal service. I'm really curious to see if they let those with already purchased tickets keep the same fare, especially after noticing the Star bedroom bucket rate has already increased in post-May 1 trips by about $400 for FTL to NYP


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## drfonta (Jan 8, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> You will be a test subject then.....let us know if you hear anything from Amtrak about changes to your fare for addition of meal service. I'm really curious to see if they let those with already purchased tickets keep the same fare, especially after noticing the Star bedroom bucket rate has already increased in post-May 1 trips by about $400 for FTL to NYP


Will do. However, I just remembered that this is a points ticket. Will definitely post here if I get any notifications though.


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 8, 2020)

drfonta said:


> Will do. However, I just remembered that this is a points ticket. Will definitely post here if I get any notifications though.



We traveled with points last year and I'm pretty sure points go up when fares do. There is probably a points per dollar formula used.


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## Bonser (Jan 8, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> We traveled with points last year and I'm pretty sure points go up when fares do. There is probably a points per dollar formula used.


They do but this shouldn't affect an already purchased ticket. Even if Flex dining is added they should be OK. It would be beyond cheap and tacky for Amtrak to try to shake one down for more AGR's or dollars after purchase.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 8, 2020)

As a common carrier I don't think Amtrak can unilaterally reprice tickets that were already purchased and issued. So long as you don't make any passenger-initiated changes the original terms and pricing should remain valid. I suppose they could refuse to provide you the extra meal service if they really wanted to get petty about it. If Amtrak tried to retroactively reprice a ticket you already purchased and possessed you'd have a strong case for compensation. The only problem is that you'd have to make that case to an arbitrator who may feel pressured to favor Amtrak in order to be hired to resolve future disputes.


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## lstone19 (Jan 9, 2020)

Back in 1986 when Amtrak went to meals included with sleeping car space, I already had a trip booked. I received all the meals for my sleeping car legs without any change in fare even though it had not been paid and ticketed yet (apparently the fare was guaranteed as I did not pay for it until 75 days out even thought it had been booked 11 months out - possibly related - this was an "All-Aboard" excursion fare that gave you a lot of coach transportation for a period of time (I don't remember the details) plus could be upgraded). The trip included Portland to Chicago via 28 and due to Expo 86 (Vancouver) that summer, the Portland sleeper was rerouted to Seattle. As I had booked sleeper before the change, I received a box dinner from the cafe on the Portland to Spokane leg (box meals were being provided to all downgraded sleeping car passengers). In my collection of stuff, I still have the ticket stubs as well as other stuff and there is a print of my reservation that a station agent gave me where it has the note "TR28 REAACOM//COMP DINNER".


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## JRR (Jan 9, 2020)

Qapla said:


> It would be nice if they could offer two different fares for sleepers .... one fare for those who want food included and a cheaper fare for those who would rather bring their own or buy on-board from the cafe.



They would then have to show the proper revenue for the meals which is hidden now!


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## Tom in PA (Jan 10, 2020)

Just a note...I've always love the Auto Train with its TWO diners. Sleeping car denizens get their own and the last time I was on it dinner was on white starched table cloths, linen napkins and the food was EXCELLENT!
That was nine years ago.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 10, 2020)

Tom in PA said:


> Just a note...I've always love the Auto Train with its TWO diners. Sleeping car denizens get their own and the last time I was on it dinner was on white starched table cloths, linen napkins and the food was EXCELLENT!
> That was nine years ago.


 9 years ago that would have described almost all Amtrak diners.


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## Lissa (Jan 11, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> You will be a test subject then.....let us know if you hear anything from Amtrak about changes to your fare for addition of meal service. I'm really curious to see if they let those with already purchased tickets keep the same fare, especially after noticing the Star bedroom bucket rate has already increased in post-May 1 trips by about $400 for FTL to NYP



We booked 2 Silver Star roomettes in September for this coming August. (We opted not to go with the Meteor because the schedule for Star was so much more convenient for our travel plans. We planned to just bring a bit of our own food to supplement the cafe car.) We paid in full when we booked. While we are aware of the flex dining now being in effect for our trip and we are aware that tickets for a roomette identical to ours has now jumped in price, we haven't heard a single peep directly from Amtrak about the changes at all. I really don't expect to.


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## RichieRich (Jan 11, 2020)

Tom in PA said:


> ... and the food was EXCELLENT!
> That was nine years ago.


A looong time ago. Today it's COSTCO disposable plastic (sporks coming soon). Your basic "airline" food. And starting next week...Coach passengers will be on a diet! LOL


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 12, 2020)

Lissa said:


> We booked 2 Silver Star roomettes in September for this coming August. (We opted not to go with the Meteor because the schedule for Star was so much more convenient for our travel plans. We planned to just bring a bit of our own food to supplement the cafe car.) We paid in full when we booked. While we are aware of the flex dining now being in effect for our trip and we are aware that tickets for a roomette identical to ours has now jumped in price, we haven't heard a single peep directly from Amtrak about the changes at all. I really don't expect to.



Not sure of your route but when I calculated the difference in price for my route, divided by the number of meals it came to $30 each. Per person, per meal. Even with the free wine that is highway robbery.


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## niemi24s (Jan 12, 2020)

$30 a meal is a bargain when compared to some day when Roomettes are both at next-to-highest bucket on the Silvers. The $273 fare difference for the whole route makes for almost $70 per meal. But on some _other_ day when the SS is at low bucket and the SM is at high bucket _that_ $428 fare difference comes out to about <gulp!> $100 per meal.

But some here would say that's comparing apples to sour grapes.

But it all evens out for travel dates on or after 1 May 2020 when the SS sleeper fares go up to the level of the SM.


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## Anderson (Jan 12, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> $30 a meal is a bargain when compared to some day when Roomettes are both at next-to-highest bucket on the Silvers. The $273 fare difference for the whole route makes for almost $70 per meal. But on some _other_ day when the SS is at low bucket and the SM is at high bucket _that_ $428 fare difference comes out to about <gulp!> $100 per meal.
> 
> But some here would say that's comparing apples to sour grapes.
> 
> But it all evens out for travel dates on or after 1 May 2020 when the SS sleeper fares go up to the level of the SM.


Yeah...I never thought I'd say this, but I wish they'd just left the included crap off on this one. I have some very explicit opinions as to what the folks who planned the implementation of it can do. I think they would violate the site's T&C.


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 12, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> But it all evens out for travel dates on or after 1 May 2020 when the SS sleeper fares go up to the level of the SM.



Actually, way past it. The difference between SS and SM bedrooms lowest rates, at least from Ft Lauderdale to NY, is about $300... with the Star being more.


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## niemi24s (Jan 12, 2020)

I suppose you could also go way, _way_ past it by dividing the difference between the high and low bucket Bedroom fares for a route segment traveled in between meal times. The cost per meal would thus be kind of like ($ Fare Difference) ÷ (Zero meals) ≈ $ Infinite per meal.

[Yes, I realize the above approximation is only rigorous if set up à la calculus as a limit as the number of meals _approaches_ zero ]

And those lowest rates you mentioned are simply the lowest you found - not the lowest possible buckets for each (which _are_ equal after 30 April 2020). It's not unusual to find the lowest bucket or two not being offered at all on the day of an AmSnag search. Same goes for high buckets on some routes.


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 12, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> And those lowest rates you mentioned are simply the lowest you found - not the lowest bucket rates for each (which _are_ equal after 30 April 2020). It's not unusual to find the lowest bucket or two not being offered at all on the day of an AmSnag search.



I did base it on an AmSnag search, but using the newest available days 11 months out and going 30 days back. The repeatedly lowest fares were 1067 for the SM and 1337 for the SS. Not quite 300.... my bad. While I am not up at midnight to check when first released, I am an early riser and happened to have checked as early as 5am.

That being said, I suppose one could argue that the SS runs six hours longer and therefore has to serve an extra meal, thereby justifying the higher price.

And with that I think I am done obsessing over this analysis for now LOL.... I must really need to get a life eh?


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## drfonta (Jan 13, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> Actually, way past it. The difference between SS and SM bedrooms lowest rates, at least from Ft Lauderdale to NY, is about $300... with the Star being more.


Since you're crunching numbers, this is what I have recorded of for my trip in March 2020, which was NYP to Deland FL (DLD). I had booked and changed tickets several times and am pretty sure I was the first on each occasion to book a bedroom on each train for the same date. The price for the Silver Meteor bedroom with 1 adult Military veteran was $774.10, for the Silver Star it was $614.70. I'm fairly certain these were the lowest prices for each train at the time as they had both gone up as soon as I booked (yes I checked right away to see and I was assigned to bedroom B on the first "10" sleeper car on each trip. As I cancelled/changed my ticket the prices went back down to what I had gotten originally if that makes sense). At that point, the Meteor was 160$ more, travel time a bit less (about 1:30) but only 2 meals (I think) with an 11:38 a.m. scheduled arrival time. Not sure if that helps you or not. Flex dining had been announced for the Meteor when I was doing my booking. Not sure how they figure their pricing and now it's all over the place but these are the numbers that I saw when planning my travel as of Oct 28 2019. As rooms have filled up, prices have changed drastically I see...


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## MrNews (Jan 13, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> 9 years ago that would have described almost all Amtrak diners.



Our first LD ride (TPA-WAS) was about 9 years ago- the dining was great. White linen, silverware, flowers, nice steak, and friendly service. I couldn't decide which dessert to have, so our server said "Have two," and brought them. Sadly, on our most recent ride (Sept. '19) we brought our own snacks & a cute, collapsible water boiler. I'm glad we got to experience some of the early-20th-century charm before it was eliminated. The dining was a big part of what made the longer-and-costlier-than-flying journey worth doing.


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## Palmland (Jan 13, 2020)

The ‘Trains’ Newswire reported this today:

“Starting May 1, each _Silver Star_ will get a Viewliner II and its passengers will receive similar treatment. A Trains News Wire analysis of pricing before and after that date confirms that sleeper fares between the same destinations are always higher for the _Meteor_ until May 1 but have identical fare levels following that date, even if varying demand dictates different fares for each train on any given day.”

Still unanswered is the question if the Viewliner diner will be a modified one to also serve as a cafe for coach passengers (and sleeper passengers who’d rather pay than have flex diner food).


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## Qapla (Jan 13, 2020)

Some interesting comments were made in this article - while not specifically mentioning the new Star dining that is about to be implemented ... it certainly makes a point as to why these changes are being made so poorly

https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...half-a-century-amtrak-may-finally-make-money/



> Republican Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), the House Transportation Committee chairman, said that becoming a for-profit company might not be the right goal for Amtrak.
> “I think they should think about efficiency but not profit,” he said. “Amtrak is a service, and it can be a better service.”



In the comments section someone made this observation


> Only people who don’t understand the public transportation, especially the railroads, can still demand Amtrak to be profitable. There is no passenger railroad in the world that makes profit. It is simply impossible because the capital improvements (right-of-way, rolling stock, etc) the railroads have to do just to keep up. Where is an outcry for highways? The same logic must be used for railroads.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2020)

> *Republican Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.)*, the House Transportation Committee chairman, said that becoming a for-profit company might not be the right goal for Amtrak.


I did a double take when I read that....

"Republican Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.)"? Really. I guess proof reading is a lost art.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 14, 2020)

jis said:


> I guess proof reading is a lost art.



So is fact checking. Or even being able to tell fact from fiction. Which is the reason (in my opinion) that Anderson is getting away with a lot of double-speak like flexible dining being an enhanced passenger experience. (I'm surprised he hasn't yet called it crafted and curated as well.)


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## JRR (Jan 14, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> $30 a meal is a bargain when compared to some day when Roomettes are both at next-to-highest bucket on the Silvers. The $273 fare difference for the whole route makes for almost $70 per meal. But on some _other_ day when the SS is at low bucket and the SM is at high bucket _that_ $428 fare difference comes out to about <gulp!> $100 per meal.
> 
> But some here would say that's comparing apples to sour grapes.
> 
> But it all evens out for travel dates on or after 1 May 2020 when the SS sleeper fares go up to the level of the SM.



The big ? Is, how much of the fare is credited to F&B revenue???


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## VentureForth (Jan 15, 2020)

jis said:


> I did a double take when I read that....
> 
> "Republican Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.)"? Really. I guess proof reading is a lost art.


Not dismissing the proof reading necessity, not it was supposed to say Rep. or Representative. Journalists using autocorrect now?


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## riderails (Jan 15, 2020)

Just exposed to new dining round trip from Chicago (Cap Limited) to Ft. Lauderdale (Silver Star & S Meteor). Was skeptical after several years of long-distance Amtrak travel. I found the arrangement most relaxing and enjoyable. I find no problem with prearranged meal times, forced ("community") seating, sometimes grumpy wait staff, being evicted from the dining car in the middle of fascinating conversations, and the replication of menus across time and geography. However, having directly experienced the, to many, much maligned dining arrangement, I would not be disappointed if it were activated across the board. I suggest the main feature in need of adjustment is, not surprisingly, the menus. Not the quality but the variety and breadth. I'll add that the sleeping car-restricted "lounge" is a welcome feature that follows from the new dining arrangement.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 15, 2020)

riderails said:


> Not the quality but the variety and breadth.



What did you have? I thought that the quality was very poor. I agree with you that I can get used to the service and the sleeper lounge idea is nice. 

(I had the shrimp and the beef entrees. I wouldn’t order the beef again, the polenta had no flavor and the beef was extremely salty.)


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## riderails (Jan 15, 2020)

Tried all four. Agree on the beef but others were ok.


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## Winecliff Station (Jan 16, 2020)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> So is fact checking. Or even being able to tell fact from fiction. Which is the reason (in my opinion) that Anderson is getting away with a lot of double-speak like flexible dining being an enhanced passenger experience. (I'm surprised he hasn't yet called it crafted and curated as well.)



Or international cuisine


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## me_little_me (Jan 18, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> Or international cuisine


Nah! Garbage Fusion!


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2020)

Winecliff Station said:


> Not sure of your route but when I calculated the difference in price for my route, divided by the number of meals it came to $30 each. Per person, per meal. Even with the free wine that is highway robbery.



That's pretty much exactly how it worked out with our numbers as well. And since we're vegetarian, it's a far worse deal, since those foods cost less to begin with. Plus, they won't even guarantee that the plant-based items (Things like veggie-burgers) will be available for the duration of the trip. On the Acela line you can put in your request for those items ahead of time, but on the Star we'll just cross our fingers that they start with a decent supply and there isn't a huge demand.


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## nferr (Jan 20, 2020)

riderails said:


> Just exposed to new dining round trip from Chicago (Cap Limited) to Ft. Lauderdale (Silver Star & S Meteor). Was skeptical after several years of long-distance Amtrak travel. I found the arrangement most relaxing and enjoyable. I find no problem with prearranged meal times, forced ("community") seating, sometimes grumpy wait staff, being evicted from the dining car in the middle of fascinating conversations, and the replication of menus across time and geography. However, having directly experienced the, to many, much maligned dining arrangement, I would not be disappointed if it were activated across the board. I suggest the main feature in need of adjustment is, not surprisingly, the menus. Not the quality but the variety and breadth. I'll add that the sleeping car-restricted "lounge" is a welcome feature that follows from the new dining arrangement.



You're not allowed to post that lol. You're gonna have the food critics jumping down your 
throat. I've never been a big fan of the community seating either and I like the idea of a sleepers lounge. I would like to see more variety in the choices offered. It's fine for the CL/LSL where it's basically one meal and a breakfast but the Crescent and Silver trains have a longer run. But it's not that big a deal to me. The hysteria over it is kind of funny.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 20, 2020)

This is the same arguement that was used by Passenger Rail users in the 60s when the Class Is were doing their "Train offs" and "Run 'em off" Schemes.

AKA "The Slippery Slope!"


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 20, 2020)

nferr said:


> You're not allowed to post that lol. You're gonna have the food critics jumping down your
> throat. I've never been a big fan of the community seating either and I like the idea of a sleepers lounge. I would like to see more variety in the choices offered. It's fine for the CL/LSL where it's basically one meal and a breakfast but the Crescent and Silver trains have a longer run. But it's not that big a deal to me. The hysteria over it is kind of funny.



It does honestly surprise me that anyone who has tried the contemporary dining would have anything good to say about the quality of the meals and the number of options. Even if you like cheap TV dinners, you have to know that there is something better right? 

The service model, when directly compared to what was there before, has some pros and cons. 

I’ll continue to say I wish they would have kept the chef and the old menu and just eliminated the table service. They still could have laid off all the servers. They could have continued selling at your seat dining car meals to Coach passengers too... wasn’t that a success? So why didn’t they expand it?


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## jis (Jan 20, 2020)

They have presumably not laid off anyone since the same law explicitly disallows such an action. They have merely shifted the cost out of the F&B account.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 21, 2020)

jis said:


> They have presumably not laid off anyone since the same law explicitly disallows such an action. They have merely shifted the cost out of the F&B account.



Well there are fewer employees working per train, but you are correct my wording was not accurate as I know my sca on the meteor was a long time dining car server. 

So I should have said “they still could have cut the server positions from the train to save those costs”


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## Barb Stout (Jan 21, 2020)

Lissa said:


> That's pretty much exactly how it worked out with our numbers as well. And since we're vegetarian, it's a far worse deal, since those foods cost less to begin with. Plus, they won't even guarantee that the plant-based items (Things like veggie-burgers) will be available for the duration of the trip. On the Acela line you can put in your request for those items ahead of time, but on the Star we'll just cross our fingers that they start with a decent supply and there isn't a huge demand.


I have been a vegetarian for almost 40 years and during those years I have observed no proportional cost savings in vegetarian food vs meat at restaurants. In fact, in recent years I have seen vegetarian items being more expensive. It would seem that the overhead costs blow away any differential pricing between meat and vegetarian items and I assume the same is true in this situation. As for Amtrak running out of vegetarian food items, I have been on a train where they ran out of veggie burgers, but the trains that offer the Asian noodle thing have not run out of that when I have been on them. To decrease the likelihood of the train running out of an item you want, try to get the earliest meal time. 

It's much easier to be a vegetarian/vegan these days compared to when I started, but I had more self-discipline back then than I do now.


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## mizmamie (Jan 21, 2020)

I rode the Silver Meteor recently (NYP-ORL-NYP) and have to say that the new flexible dining menu is pretty awful. I'm a vegetarian and ordered the Asian noodle bowl for dinner, which had been nuked into a rubbery blob. It was so bad that I skipped lunch the next day, and brought dinner for the ride home. Breakfast was the best meal, IMO. It's hard to mess up a cup of yogurt and a banana. Can't tell you how much I missed having eggs, grits, and toast (not to mention different meals at lunch and dinner). Other than this, the rides were an A+.


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## lordsigma (Jan 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ll continue to say I wish they would have kept the chef and the old menu and just eliminated the table service. They still could have laid off all the servers. They could have continued selling at your seat dining car meals to Coach passengers too... wasn’t that a success? So why didn’t they expand it?


I have said this before but I think the title of the remaining position is just semantics. The issue isn’t whether this employee is a chef or an LSA the issue is that it’s one employee. One employee would not be able to prepare the old menu and serve it unless constantly assisted by the sleeping car attendants essentially replacing the servers during meals. This employee also has to deal with cash and the books so LSA is the proper title - there is nothing saying an LSA can’t cook.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 21, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I have said this before but I think the title of the remaining position is just semantics. The issue isn’t whether this employee is a chef or an LSA the issue is that it’s one employee. One employee would not be able to prepare the old menu and serve it unless constantly assisted by the sleeping car attendants essentially replacing the servers during meals. This employee also has to deal with cash and the books so LSA is the proper title - there is nothing saying an LSA can’t cook.


 Then keep the Chef and 1 LSA but still drop the table service. The point is keep the menu / quality of food even if you need to cut the table service.

I realize it's not just the staff on the train... they are also saving money by closing the east coast dining car commissaries.


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## lordsigma (Jan 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Then keep the Chef and 1 LSA but still drop the table service. The point is keep the menu / quality of food even if you need to cut the table service.
> 
> I realize it's not just the staff on the train... they are also saving money by closing the east coast dining car commissaries.



I don’t disagree but I just meant that with only one staffer the old menu is unrealistic unless you also had a second staffer as you suggested.


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