# Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian Expansion



## JDStutts (Sep 21, 2017)

Don't you think that Amtrak should make a new line that runs on the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian tracks from Chicago to New York? It would be faster and more direct than the Lake Shore Limited.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 21, 2017)

Not only do many think so, so does Amtrak and a proposal to do so has been on the back burner for a long time now.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Sep 21, 2017)

The time to complete the route would be roughly the same as the Lake Shore Limited due to the mountains, but I am still a strong supporter of such a route. The most likely near-term scenario is thru-cars between the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian. If a new train were to be instituted, however, I believe it should run overnight between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to provide a unique schedule between the East Coast and Chicago. This would also provide daylight service to Ohio and potentially Michigan if it was routed that way. The only area with poor times would be during the overnight segment, but that area already has the Pennsylvanian during daylight hours. Such a train would not connect to the Western LDs, but that market is small enough that a 4th east coast to Chicago train should operate on a dramatically different schedule than the other three to provide more options. People who are connecting west of Chicago would still have the option to connect in Pittsburgh just like today.

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## Metra Electric Rider (Sep 21, 2017)

I suspect that a day train to Ohio, particularly Cleveland, would be packed.


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## dlagrua (Oct 26, 2017)

IMO, what would probably work best is the reactivation of the old Broadway LTD route that ran on the Pennsylvania RR mainline to CHI. Since its rebuilding as a freight line there is another clear route available from PGH to CHI. That's the old line that ran through Crestline, Sandusky, Ft Wayne, & Valpariso. Many of the stations are still there. Ft Wayne station has even been restored and is ready for service.


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## benale (Oct 26, 2017)

Cleveland has four trains all calling the overnight hours. Of course it would make sense for one train to stop in the daytime both directions. How about a train leaving from Philly early in the morning to ensure arrival on Ohio in the afternoon .Going East a morning departure from Chicago.

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## west point (Oct 26, 2017)

Benate has the correct idea. Early morning departures from PHL and CHI seem a good idea. As well will have a connection from present early morning WASH - NYP train and the night owl from BOS <>- NYP.<> PHL. So lets get the additional equipment.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 26, 2017)

benale said:


> Cleveland has four trains all calling the overnight hours. Of course it would make sense for one train to stop in the daytime both directions. How about a train leaving from Philly early in the morning to ensure arrival on Ohio in the afternoon .Going East a morning departure from Chicago.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Amtrak Forum mobile app


All Aboard Ohio proposed that in January 2016 (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf). Look at page 18, schedule 41 westbound and schedule 40 eastbound. The trains travel via Dearborn and Ann Arbor as well. This is in addition to 43 and 42 which are the Pennsylvanian extended to Chicago. So I would get TWO trains to Chicago. You wonder why I love AAO so much.


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## west point (Oct 26, 2017)

Have Amtrak get enough passenger equipment and a couple more switchers. Then combine the Pennsylvanian at Pittsburg and go to Toledo then split with part going to Detroit to provide MI service. Rest of combined train follow present Capitol. now how the cars would be allocated will of course depend on the various demands and may have to be adjusted after 3 or 4 months.


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## railiner (Oct 28, 2017)

Having a through train combine and separate at two (or more) locations is a recipe for timekeeping disaster, IMHO....

Although it has been done in the past...such as the Cardinal's predecessor (George Washington), as well as the UP's "City of Everywhere", and some other's...but those were in a different era, with a different environment for passenger train operations...


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 28, 2017)

railiner said:


> Having a through train combine and separate at two (or more) locations is a recipe for timekeeping disaster, IMHO....
> 
> Although it has been done in the past...such as the Cardinal's predecessor (George Washington), as well as the UP's "City of Everywhere", and some other's...but those were in a different era, with a different environment for passenger train operations...


Was the GW before or during the Amtrak era? Was there ever an Amtrak train that had two or more splits?


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## jis (Oct 28, 2017)

There was a George Washington paired with James Whitcomb Riley in the early Amtrak era. As I recall it was a phenomenal CF.

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## railiner (Oct 28, 2017)

Prior to Amtrak, the C&O George Washington, Washington and Newport News section's combined at Charlottesville. At Huntington, cars to Detroit were split, at Ashland, Ky., the Louiville section was split off. And at Cincinnati, thru cars were conveyed to B&O's National Limited to St. Louis, and NYC's James Whitcomb Riley to Chicago, IIRC. There were other sleepers set out or picked up at Richmond, and perhaps some other stations from time to time.

In the early Amtrak era, the George Washington still split and combined sections at Charlottesville, but that was all, although it did go thru to Chicago...Later on,now called the James Whitcomb Riley, it combined with the Mountaineer at Ashland...by that time, the Newport News section was dropped, and Tidewater passengers went to Norfolk instead. Later still, the Mountaineer ended, and the Boston to TriState Station (Catlettsburg), Hilltopper, "connected" (long layover), with the by now named Cardinal train. No thru cars... It also connected for a time with the Shenandoah at Cincinnati, again, no thru cars...

The National Limited, New York and Washington sections combined at Harrisburg, and at Kansas City, a thru Los Angeles sleeper was conveyed to the Southwest Limited...similar to the Crescent/Sunset route at New Orleans....

There may have been some other cases, if you want to spend time researching, look here....http://www.timetables.org/catalog/


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## railiner (Oct 28, 2017)

jis said:


> There was a George Washington paired with James Whitcomb Riley in the early Amtrak era. As I recall it was a phenomenal CF.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


The main issue in that era was the deplorable rail condition in Indiana on the Penn Central lines....both the Cardinal and the Floridian were constantly re-routed in search of better track...


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## west point (Oct 28, 2017)

This poster's proposal on multiple splits would require a much better time keeping than now. But that may happen in the future ?


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## jis (Oct 28, 2017)

After we install Hyperloop everywhere, maybe . Just heard that my train will be indefinitely delayed due to a train ahead of it striking a trespasser. [emoji57]

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## Green Maned Lion (Oct 29, 2017)

All that splitting was really only possible before Amtrak took over actually operating the trains.


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## railiner (Oct 29, 2017)

For a number of reasons....there was of course, much more passenger equipment, much more mechanical forces at various location, more than one-a-day trains on many routes, so that if a train section was seriously delayed, they had alternate trains to forward late trains on, etc....and certainly not least....the railroads operating the passenger trains, in general, had a much better attitude towards their operation.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 29, 2017)

railiner said:


> For a number of reasons....there was of course, much more passenger equipment, much more mechanical forces at various location, more than one-a-day trains on many routes, so that if a train section was seriously delayed, they had alternate trains to forward late trains on, etc....and certainly not least....the railroads operating the passenger trains, in general, had a much better attitude towards their operation.


And Railroaders took pride in their Line and their jobs!


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## railiner (Oct 29, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > For a number of reasons....there was of course, much more passenger equipment, much more mechanical forces at various location, more than one-a-day trains on many routes, so that if a train section was seriously delayed, they had alternate trains to forward late trains on, etc....and certainly not least....the railroads operating the passenger trains, in general, had a much better attitude towards their operation.
> ...


Actually, whether all admit to it, or not....I think they still do....its the management mostly, that doesn't....


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## neroden (Oct 29, 2017)

At this point, there is conclusive evidence that dispatchers in certain divisions of certain railroads have been led to believe that their job is to delay Amtrak trains for freight trains. This is, of course, flatly illegal, but nobody has managed to nail the relevant management on it yet.

You can tell what's going on because other dispatchers in other divisions of other railroads do what they're supposed to.


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## cirdan (Oct 30, 2017)

neroden said:


> At this point, there is conclusive evidence that dispatchers in certain divisions of certain railroads have been led to believe that their job is to delay Amtrak trains for freight trains. This is, of course, flatly illegal, but nobody has managed to nail the relevant management on it yet.
> 
> You can tell what's going on because other dispatchers in other divisions of other railroads do what they're supposed to.


It's not always fair to blame the dispatchers. If a line is just clogged up and congested to saturation, there's not much juggling room that even a willing dispatcher can use to priorizie Amtrak.

On the other hand, if the line sees little traffic besides Amtrak, the dispatcher only needs to be mildly cooperative for Amtrak to keep to time.


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## jis (Oct 30, 2017)

Often a Dispatcher is placed in a no win situation by decisions made at higher levels on how much traffic will be shoved through the Dispatcher's territory. All that the Dispatcher can do is deal with the hand that s/he is served by events and decisions out of their control.

For example, the NS fiasco with auto-dispatching (which BTW happened under Moorman's watch) is something that a Dispatcher could not do much about, short of just quitting or getting fired.

Oddly enough, Amtrak seems to face similar problems in territories dispatched by Amtrak Dispatchers, even involving Amtrak trains. Of course screwing NJT trains is completely par for the course too. So I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander when the tables are turned.


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## Thirdrail7 (Oct 30, 2017)

railiner said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


You mean those who fund the operation. They are the ones who consider the costs of protecting services.


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## neroden (Oct 31, 2017)

jis said:


> Often a Dispatcher is placed in a no win situation by decisions made at higher levels on how much traffic will be shoved through the Dispatcher's territory. All that the Dispatcher can do is deal with the hand that s/he is served by events and decisions out of their control.
> 
> For example, the NS fiasco with auto-dispatching (which BTW happened under Moorman's watch) is something that a Dispatcher could not do much about, short of just quitting or getting fired.


Yeah, that's just top-level incompetence. I'm thinking of the sort of stuff which happened on the CN lines, which amounts to deliberate troublemaking. Amtrak actually filed a complaint to the STB (its first ever against a Class I IIRC) over that.



> Oddly enough, Amtrak seems to face similar problems in territories dispatched by Amtrak Dispatchers, even involving Amtrak trains.


Not like the CN stuff.



> Of course screwing NJT trains is completely par for the course too. So I guess what is good for the goose is good for the gander when the tables are turned.


And Metro-North is actually one of the worst for dispatching Amtrak poorly (and in their case it's legal -- it's only illegal to prioritize freight over passengers, it's legal to prioritize some passengers over other passengers), so yeah.


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## neroden (Oct 31, 2017)

cirdan said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, there is conclusive evidence that dispatchers in certain divisions of certain railroads have been led to believe that their job is to delay Amtrak trains for freight trains. This is, of course, flatly illegal, but nobody has managed to nail the relevant management on it yet.
> ...


I should point out that I'm not really blaming them as individuals -- I've heard too many leaks from class Is indicating that management was *leaning* on them to dispatch illegally, punishing them for following the law and rewarding them for delaying Amtrak. :-(


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 1, 2017)

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.


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## cirdan (Nov 1, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.


this


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## Anderson (Nov 4, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > For a number of reasons....there was of course, much more passenger equipment, much more mechanical forces at various location, more than one-a-day trains on many routes, so that if a train section was seriously delayed, they had alternate trains to forward late trains on, etc....and certainly not least....the railroads operating the passenger trains, in general, had a much better attitude towards their operation.
> ...


Not to mention that the underlying railroad had a stake in the train's performance, both in terms of finance and in terms of PR.


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## Anderson (Nov 4, 2017)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Often a Dispatcher is placed in a no win situation by decisions made at higher levels on how much traffic will be shoved through the Dispatcher's territory. All that the Dispatcher can do is deal with the hand that s/he is served by events and decisions out of their control.
> ...


Amtrak has, IIRC, filed three claims. One was over SP's (blatant) mishandling of the Sunset back in the 80s. One was an eminent domain claim over the deterioration of the Montrealer/Vermonter's route due to grossly deferred maintenance following a derailment. The CN case was likely the third. But yes, those claims are rare and reserved for highly egregious misbehavior.


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## choochoodood (Nov 4, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> IMO, what would probably work best is the reactivation of the old Broadway LTD route that ran on the Pennsylvania RR mainline to CHI. Since its rebuilding as a freight line there is another clear route available from PGH to CHI. That's the old line that ran through Crestline, Sandusky, Ft Wayne, & Valpariso. Many of the stations are still there. Ft Wayne station has even been restored and is ready for service.


Just a minor correction to your post...

The Broadway Limited route never went through Sandusky. It ran about 45-50 miles south of there, stopping in Canton, Crestline, and Lima.

Much of what remains of that line (PRRs Pittsburgh, Ft Wayne & Chicago) has been downgraded and would require a lot of capital to be suitable for passenger service. The CF&E leases the line (from CSX) from Crestline to Gary, and track speeds are relatively slow these days.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 4, 2017)

I think I/we have discussed having a train serve TOL/CHi via Michigan rather than South Bend as AAO proposed (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf).

They also proposed a train routing between PGH and CLE stopping in Youngstown and Ravenna-Kent (discussed on p. 26). Whose tracks would that be and how feasible would it be (they put a price tag, including both Michigan and Youngstown reroutings, of $119M for the entire up front cost of expansion of the Pennsylvanian to Chicago) with $700,000 new annual subsidy a year. This is cheaper than a daily Cardinal and would produce a greater economic impact according to their chart on p. 32.They list the projected annual ridership of 360,000 but that includes the current Pennsylvanian ridership. But that ridership is pretty close to the Lake Shore Limited in terms of East-Midwest traffic and would blow the Capitol Limited and Cardinal out of the water.


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## Anderson (Nov 6, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I think I/we have discussed having a train serve TOL/CHi via Michigan rather than South Bend as AAO proposed (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf).
> 
> They also proposed a train routing between PGH and CLE stopping in Youngstown and Ravenna-Kent (discussed on p. 26). Whose tracks would that be and how feasible would it be (they put a price tag, including both Michigan and Youngstown reroutings, of $119M for the entire up front cost of expansion of the Pennsylvanian to Chicago) with $700,000 new annual subsidy a year. This is cheaper than a daily Cardinal and would produce a greater economic impact according to their chart on p. 32.They list the projected annual ridership of 360,000 but that includes the current Pennsylvanian ridership. But that ridership is pretty close to the Lake Shore Limited in terms of East-Midwest traffic and would blow the Capitol Limited and Cardinal out of the water.


Those numbers may be true, but I do wonder how much of the Pennsylvanian's traffic is in eastern PA (something that the Cap doesn't have). IIRC a net of 140-150k riders is about on par with the incremental increase expected with a daily Cardinal (said train probably goes to about 270-280k riders vs.the present 130k...this increase would be in line with the hits the Western trains took during the less-than-daily fiasco in the 90s). The Cap's ridership situation, on the other hand, is...complicated since it offers the only convenient connection to/from Florida at present, meaning that it's got an inordinate amount of through-ridership (IIRC you're looking at about 40% endpoint ridership and another 20% that's turnover at PGH from the endpoints).

Basically, I think the through-ridership isn't _that_ much higher on any of the options...it's a question of intermediate destinations (e.g. CIN-WAS on the Cardinal, HAR-PGH on the Pennsylvanian, WAS-PGH on the Cap, etc.)


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 6, 2017)

If Amtrak adds another train through Pittsburgh, what are the chances that the city would improve the existing station which could attract even more passengers. Pittsburgh could benefit from daylight calling times in Ohio.


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## Alexandria Nick (Nov 7, 2017)

Zero chance. There's no space to put the improvements because of the apartment building. I'm not sure even a rebuild of the existing space would do much good.

They'd probably be better off building a new "head house" at the east end of the platforms. There's space for that and improved parking down there. But I'd rate the actual chances at less than zero.


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## Anthony V (Nov 8, 2017)

choochoodood said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > IMO, what would probably work best is the reactivation of the old Broadway LTD route that ran on the Pennsylvania RR mainline to CHI. Since its rebuilding as a freight line there is another clear route available from PGH to CHI. That's the old line that ran through Crestline, Sandusky, Ft Wayne, & Valpariso. Many of the stations are still there. Ft Wayne station has even been restored and is ready for service.
> ...


A better routing for a revived Broadway Ltd would be the old Three Rivers route between PGH and Fostoria, via Youngstown and Akron. At Fostoria, the train would take the old Nickel Plate route to Fort Wayne, and then the old PRR to Chicago. AAO didn't recommend restoring the TR to it's old route because of low population west of Akron. However the routing via Fort Wayne I'm recommending would take care of that problem. In addition, the Chicago - Fort Wayne portion is going to be upgraded if the proposed Chicago - Columbus, OH passenger rail line currently under study is built.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 8, 2017)

But Ohio will have to elect a different Governor and other Politicians before this could happen! Lots of Luck with that, the Buckeye State went for Trump ( who has,shown Zero Interest in Rail)and the Current Guv killed the 3C project.


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## neroden (Nov 13, 2017)

So the long-term solution in Pittsburgh is unfortunately far out of sight. The solution is this: convert the "East Busway" to light rail, and link it to the disused underground stub of a light rail line which leads to the Pittsburgh Amtrak station. Apart from the inherent benefits to everyone along the "East Light Rail Line", this would finally provide enough steady demand to keep the Amtrak station served by light rail. This would create a situation where there would be enough interchange demand for a new Pittsburgh headhouse to be funded. (Plus: creates the logic for a suburban transfer station in Rankin.) Anyway, damn that busway.


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## JoeZeppy412 (Nov 18, 2017)

Oh my God, I would love that. We live in Pittsburgh and go up to Cleveland a couple times a year. We took Amtrak there once, but it's annoying to get there at 3 o'clock in the morning and have to pay for a night in a hotel room that you're only going to use for four hours.

We take at least one long distance Amtrak trip a year for vacation. If there was a major destination on a daytime trip within a few hours we'd take a few more. And I'm sure I can sell that to some friends as an introduction to Amtrak if we can leave at say 8 AM and get to Cleveland by 11:30.


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## dlagrua (Nov 24, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> If Amtrak adds another train through Pittsburgh, what are the chances that the city would improve the existing station which could attract even more passengers. Pittsburgh could benefit from daylight calling times in Ohio.


The station in Pittsburgh is still there, as are the tracks, Trouble is that most of it is now apartments. The beautiful great station hall is now the apartment house lobby. Point is that Amtrak doesn't own it and the basement waiting room has little if any room for expansion. Although its ugly, its sufficient for its current use.


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## railiner (Nov 24, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak adds another train through Pittsburgh, what are the chances that the city would improve the existing station which could attract even more passengers. Pittsburgh could benefit from daylight calling times in Ohio.
> ...


I searched in vain for some good interior photo's of the Pittsburgh station when it was in its prime...plenty of outside shots, but only one small slice of the interior....anyone have any links to photo's?

I do recall the station main level during the late 60's, including the time that Continental Trailways started sharing its space...the buses would drive up and load in the Rotunda...

IIRC, the station at one time had escalator's and stairways to a lower level area, that was long out of use by the time I was there....


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 26, 2017)

I know my father took pictures when we went to the station when we traveled or picked up relatives, but so far I have not been able to find any. My Grandparents came twice a year on the PRR from NYP. My father traveled on business many times on the train. I remember station being huge and grand as a kid. It would be nice if the city reworked arrangement's for the current station so Amtrak could have a nice facility. I know the station seems to be landlocked, but creative minds have done more with less.


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## railiner (Nov 26, 2017)

I still can't help thinking about the 'sealed off' lower level....I am not sure of what it was ever used for, somewhere I heard that the 'Panhandle Route' trains operated from there, but I recall leaving on the Spirit of St. Louis, and even Amtrak's National Limited from the upper (main) level, IIRC....


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