# Surprisingly the 767 lives on!



## jis (Dec 23, 2021)

UPS just announced their latest order for 767 freighters.



In all 80 new 767s have been ordered in 2021!

Looks like it is primarily FedEx and UPS ordering it, beyond the USAF Tanker order. But they keep coming back for more.


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## slasher-fun (Dec 23, 2021)

They must be getting huge discounts given how much of a fiasco 2019 and 2020 have been for being (respectively -87 and -1026 (!) net orders these years, compared to +768 and +268 for Airbus)


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## jiml (Dec 23, 2021)

Not a surprise given the upward trend in shipping by air, plus Boeing stays in business by building something they know with a proven success record. Win-win.


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## west point (Dec 23, 2021)

The 767 is a very reliable airplane. Its avionics are identical to the B-757 which allowed a common type rating for pilots. The fuel consumption for the airplane is also very good. Its fuel consumption at cruise for each engine is just 2/3rds of each engine of a B727 at cruise. So, cruise consumption is just about 1/2 of a B727. Fuel burn for takeoff and climb is a little higher than a B-727 so total consumption is somewhat over 1/2.

But then you take in the additional cargo capacity of a B-767 is much more. There still is need to use B-727s. Smaller station loads do not need a capital expensive B-767 that would run over half empty,

The experiment of a converted B-737 might prove economical as one less engine and one less crew member. 737s use same JT-8s as B-727s.
However there has been a few -727s with a more powerful and less fuel consumption engines mounted on the two pods keeping the JT8 in center engine,


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## Brian Battuello (Dec 23, 2021)

Wow, I didn't know there were any 727's still flying. Ironic to see 10 year old A380's getting munched up and 727's staggering along. 

I flew on one of UAL's last Caravelles. Thought it was a DC-9 until I saw the tail. It even had a rear airstair!


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## jis (Dec 23, 2021)

Caravelle was an interesting plane. I flew in a Air France one in 1966 London Heathrow to Paris Orly.

Well many 380s are still flying. It is manufacturing that has been discontinued. 727 manufacturing was discontinued in 1984 after 1,832 were built.

The 767 was introduced in 1982 and so far 1,236 have been built as of November 2021, and manufacturing continues. I didn;t realize that it has 3 DoD variants, and one DoD variant that was canceled after design but before any were built.


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## west point (Dec 23, 2021)

Caravelles= The noisiest aircraft taxing in or out of the gate. Most ground crew either had earmuffs or escaped indoors when one was around. I hated them as well.

Forgot that the real solution forsmaller than B-767s are the B-757s. That airplane of course same rating as B-767 had identical interior so could use 727 compatible igloos. As well could carry 2 or 3 more of those igloos. The 757 came out of efforts to lengten 727s that prove bad idea because of problem of tail strikes.

My thoughts were a B-757 Strech would have been much better than the B-737 max. Wider interior, engines in proper location that would mean no MCAST, Flexible with ability to carry more passengers, Good cargo plane to replace both 727 and the few 737 freighters. Only downer IMO is 757s sit higher above ground with longer landing gear which is why engines are in correct location. i


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## jiml (Dec 23, 2021)

west point said:


> My thoughts were a B-757 Strech would have been much better than the B-737 max. Wider interior, engines in proper location that would mean no MCAST, Flexible with ability to carry more passengers, Good cargo plane to replace both 727 and the few 737 freighters. Only downer IMO is 757s sit higher above ground with longer landing gear which is why engines are in correct location. i


There are aviation experts and enthusiasts who agree with you, and several detailed articles and videos on the subject.


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## PVD (Dec 23, 2021)

There are lots of 737 being converted to freighter use, but not the old ones with JT-8 all CFM-56 . Noise regs and high fuel consumption as well as maintenance costs make those old ones tough to keep using. Lots of classics (300s mostly) and even some next gens on the market to convert.


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## jis (Dec 23, 2021)

There are many 757 freighter conversions. Oddly you see them quite a bit in Asia. There is a freight airline called Blue Dart the entire fleet of which consists of 757Fs. There are other odd such in Asia.


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## slasher-fun (Dec 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Well many 380s are still flying. It is manufacturing that has been discontinued.


Out of the 249 delivered, 7 have already been scrapped.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 23, 2021)

west point said:


> My thoughts were a B-757 Strech would have been much better than the B-737 max. Wider interior, engines in proper location that would mean no MCAST, Flexible with ability to carry more passengers, Good cargo plane to replace both 727 and the few 737 freighters. Only downer IMO is 757s sit higher above ground with longer landing gear which is why engines are in correct location. i


The B757 was already stretched once and barely sold in that configuration. MCAS was not the core problem. A manufacturer and regulator that are willing to sell an unsafe 737 would be just as willing to sell an unsafe 757.


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## jiml (Dec 23, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The B757 was already stretched once and barely sold in that configuration. MCAS was not the core problem. A manufacturer and regulator that are willing to sell an unsafe 737 would be just as willing to sell an unsafe 757.


IIRC tail strikes were an issue with the 757-300. One of the least successful stretches.


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## basketmaker (Dec 24, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> Wow, I didn't know there were any 727's still flying. Ironic to see 10 year old A380's getting munched up and 727's staggering along.
> 
> I flew on one of UAL's last Caravelles. Thought it was a DC-9 until I saw the tail. It even had a rear airstair!
> 
> View attachment 26427


IFL Group is still operating a 727 daily I think for UPS from Louisville to New Orleans. Now the UA Caravelle is a golden oldie. Remember United and Air France's flying them when I worked at MIA. Then spent 33 years with UPS.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 25, 2021)

I see the occasional B757 when I'm out and about. Usually in Charlotte they are right next to 36R where the freight depot is. I have to say I really like the B757 variant they use for Air Force Two. That Lowery paint scheme on it just looks absolutely magical on it. I've never stepped foot on a B757 actually. I've only been on one B767 on Air Canada Rouge. However when I play Airline Empires online I generally amass a large fleet of B767s, B777s, and B738/739 aircraft. Then a handful of CRJ900s for some regional filling. B767s are versatile great aircraft. I wish AA hadn't gotten rid of theirs.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 25, 2021)

I've flown on 757's more than my fare share. I enjoy them!
I flew across the ocean on Delta 757's out of Boston more than once. A truly versatile aircraft. Shame more were not built and they shortsightedly ended production.

767 living on is a surprise indeed.


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## jis (Dec 25, 2021)

I have flown many TATL 757 routes under Continental and then United - EWR to EDI, MAN, BRS, TXL, HEL, and of course scads of flights MCO - EWR - MCO mainly for the lie flat Domestic FC seats on the international over-water 757s, all with Rolls Royce engines.

I have also flown the 767 EWR - TXL. Tegel did not have any gate with aerobridge capable of handling 767s so they got parked in at a field stand and access to/from terminal was via bus. Now of course there is no TXL anymore with BER finally coming on line.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 25, 2021)

jis said:


> I have flown many TATL 757 routes under Continental and then United - EWR to EDI, MAN, BRS, TXL, HEL, and of course scads of flights MCO - EWR - MCO mainly for the lie flat Domestic FC seats on the international over-water 757s, all with Rolls Royce engines.
> 
> I have also flown the 767 EWR - TXL. Tegel did not have any gate with aerobridge capable of handling 767s so they got parked in at a field stand and access to/from terminal was via bus. Now of course there is no TXL anymore with BER finally coming on line.



The best deplaning experience I had was on an Aeroflot B777-300ER in SVO. For some reason they parked us on a remote hard stand. I was like in Heaven. And in my AA uniform as well.


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## jis (Dec 25, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> The best deplaning experience I had was on an Aeroflot B777-300ER in SVO. For some reason they parked us on a remote hard stand. I was like in Heaven. And in my AA uniform as well.


I have disembarked from a United/Continental 777 at Heathrow many times before they moved to the Star Alliance T2. Even done so from a few Air India 747s many moons ago. And even 707s even further back. Heathrow seemed to be perpetually short of gates. Oh yes at Hong Kong Kai Tak from Pan Am 747. Kai Tak had very few gates with aerobridges. It was mostly hard stand and bus.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

slasher-fun said:


> Out of the 249 delivered, 7 have already been scrapped.


I remember UPS was going to be a launch customer for the 380F. That idea went down the tubes real quick. I still have a small desk/shelf flag with a 380 in UPS livery somewhere around the house.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2021)

The 380 was unfortunately not designed to be a very good or efficient freighter. The 350 OTOH is potentially excellent.


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## mcropod (Dec 26, 2021)

Every flight out of Oz is a long-distance one, with hubs to Europe mainly in the Gulf States (UAE, Qatar, Dubai all about 17hrs away), or SE Asia (Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand about nine hours), so when our borders are open we get a goodly range of aircraft types to experience.

I'm strongly biaised in favour of the A380 and Qatar, but I understand economics is acting against the A380 in the market.

I reckon when things get moving again, our hubs to Europe and even the USA will likely be Chinese as the three or so big Chinese airlines capture our travel dollars. They seem to fly Boeings mostly on long-hauls last time I had a look. The chances are that one of them'll have me in a seat whenever it's safe to get moving again.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2021)

Why would you go through China when you have multiple non stops to the US from the east coast of Australia? Admittedly they are mostly 777s, 787s or A350s.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 26, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> Wow, I didn't know there were any 727's still flying. Ironic to see 10 year old A380's getting munched up and 727's staggering along.


To my knowledge only one company has been willing to give a retired A380 a real chance at a second life and even they eventually returned it. If a heavily discounted secondhand A380 cannot make a profit as a Hajj shuttle, humanitarian evacuator, and PPE shipper then scrapping may be the only option.



jis said:


> The 380 was unfortunately not designed to be a very good or efficient freighter. The 350 OTOH is potentially excellent.


IIRC the initial consideration of a freighter version was scrapped very early in the design process. As a result even a potential conversion process for the secondary market was deemed unworkable.



mcropod said:


> I reckon when things get moving again, our hubs to Europe and even the USA will likely be Chinese as the three or so big Chinese airlines capture our travel dollars.


Any particular reason why? I've yet to see a compelling inducement to ride any of the Chinese airlines. Poor reviews, clumsy connections, indifferent service, etc.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

jis said:


> The 380 was unfortunately not designed to be a very good or efficient freighter. The 350 OTOH is potentially excellent.


I agree fully. I just imagined the on-loading/off-loading of ULDs and equipment needed.


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## jiml (Dec 26, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Any particular reason why? I've yet to see a compelling inducement to ride any of the Chinese airlines. Poor reviews, clumsy connections, indifferent service, etc.


I agree, but it will be the same way they built market-share in every other industry. Low cost.


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## Cal (Dec 26, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Any particular reason why? I've yet to see a compelling inducement to ride any of the Chinese airlines. Poor reviews, clumsy connections, indifferent service, etc.


Im not sure if you count the Taiwan-based China Airlines, but I’ve flown them a few times trans-pacific. The crew are great, food was good IMO — I don’t see the problem with international airline food, at least the carriers I’ve flown. Their cabin is also very good looking IMO. They’ve also gotten good reviews online from multiple different people.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

Still a few 757s and 767s buzzing around. At 1730/26DEC.


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## mcropod (Dec 27, 2021)

jis said:


> Why would you go through China when you have multiple non stops to the US from the east coast of Australia? Admittedly they are mostly 777s, 787s or A350s.



You are right that there are non-stoppers from east-Oz capitals to USA's west coast airports as well as a couple of internal US domestic hubs, but I think getting from Oz to the USA's east coast attractions takes a hop somewhere, and it may as well be China as anywhere else. I'm not keen, for example, to jump off a 14-17 hr full-service international long-haul to jump into a US domestic internal carrier for the last five or so air-hours.

I think most of Oz's inter-continental long-haul travel is to Europe rather than the Americas anyway, meaning we head west rather than east for preference. I think once the big Chinese airlines get themselves plugged into the Oz market, and given the opportunities provided by routes over the pole from there, we might head north regardless of our northern hemisphere destination.

It's a bloody long way to just about anywhere else from here, so if you have to go halfway around the globe to get there, it isn't very material which way you go  I flew last into and out of Philadelphia by Qatar through Doha, and could have reached any number of US and Canadian eastern cities that way - much more fun than transiting through LAX and then picking up an internal.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 27, 2021)

mcropod said:


> You are right that there are non-stoppers from east-Oz capitals to USA's west coast airports as well as a couple of internal US domestic hubs, but I think getting from Oz to the USA's east coast attractions takes a hop somewhere, and it may as well be China as anywhere else. I'm not keen, for example, to jump off a 14-17 hr full-service international long-haul to jump into a US domestic internal carrier for the last five or so air-hours.
> 
> I think most of Oz's inter-continental long-haul travel is to Europe rather than the Americas anyway, meaning we head west rather than east for preference. I think once the big Chinese airlines get themselves plugged into the Oz market, and given the opportunities provided by routes over the pole from there, we might head north regardless of our northern hemisphere destination.
> 
> It's a bloody long way to just about anywhere else from here, so if you have to go halfway around the globe to get there, it isn't very material which way you go  I flew last into and out of Philadelphia by Qatar through Doha, and could have reached any number of US and Canadian eastern cities that way - much more fun than transiting through LAX and then picking up an internal.



I may just be a bit paranoid, but I would be reluctant to be anywhere under Chinese jurisdiction for any part of my voyage, unless maybe I was actually intent on visiting China. That might be due to my last trip, where we got a security briefing before traveling, and they advised us only to use the special government phone and laptop they provided us, because the Chinese have a habit of hacking people's devices if they think it's to their benefi. Also, as part of the security check on the outbound flight, I got and extra-special frisking, although, thank heavens, I didn't get the special hand baggage inspection just before boarding. Not sure why that was the case, as I was traveling on an official passport (a passport that indicated I was a US government official traveling on official US Government business). Maybe they don't target tourists the same way, but there was that incident where those Canadian businessmen were used as pawns in some diplomatic spat between the US and China.


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## mcropod (Dec 28, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I may just be a bit paranoid, but I would be reluctant to be anywhere under Chinese jurisdiction for any part of my voyage, unless maybe I was actually intent on visiting China. That might be due to my last trip, where we got a security briefing before traveling, and they advised us only to use the special government phone and laptop they provided us, because the Chinese have a habit of hacking people's devices if they think it's to their benefi. Also, as part of the security check on the outbound flight, I got and extra-special frisking, although, thank heavens, I didn't get the special hand baggage inspection just before boarding. Not sure why that was the case, as I was traveling on an official passport (a passport that indicated I was a US government official traveling on official US Government business). Maybe they don't target tourists the same way, but there was that incident where those Canadian businessmen were used as pawns in some diplomatic spat between the US and China.



And as a citizen of as free and socially liberal a country as Australia, I share your unease in travelling in, or through, any unfree and illiberal country (the majority of the planet, sadly). And now there's a rebalancing of Empires, we who live in the long grass get caught up in things, even though we have no dog in the fight.

I have to hold my nose and be very careful when visiting many countries (and I'm not even an emissary or official representative) - China being but one of them, although I suspect my physical safety would be less at risk there than in many other places I'm encouraged to feel more affinity with. I'd also be very circumspect about participating in any aspect of domestic affairs there, even electronically.

I think once China is less under siege from the soon-to-be-eclipsed, her leaders will be less defensive and more inclined to take her place at the top table and participate more productively in global affairs as has been the tradition of previous dominant empires. I think we need a strong EU to help balance things, which is also why I think England taking the UK out of it is the most stupid political/economic act of the last decade. I'll be very happy when I have my Scottish passport with EU member embossed on it.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2021)

Moderator's Notes: Please steer the thread back to survival of 767s, other old aircraft and flying, and specifically away from discussion of general global politics. Thank you.


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## Brian Battuello (Dec 28, 2021)

Some time ago, my spouse and I were travelling NYC-SFO amazingly frequently, and Tower Air had by far the best prices. They flew out of an abandoned freight hangar at JFK, and used the oldest 747's I've ever seen. And their pilots were equally decrepit. The planes rattled and squeaked, and they showed old Mr. Bean videos and ads for cheap limo services on the grainy hanging TVs. Thank God we only did it a few times, and they managed to crash financially before they flew one of their 200's into the ground.


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## PVD (Dec 28, 2021)

Half of their fleet were actually 100's


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