# VIA Rail Canadian + Empire Builder loop trip



## thully (Aug 1, 2022)

For a while, the two long-distance trains I’ve most wanted to ride have been the Canadian and the Empire Builder - a pair of trains that work quite nicely as a round-trip loop - and despite planning this late I finally managed to put it together this year. My trip started with me making my way to Toronto on Saturday, July 30th, so that I would be there to board the Canadian the next morning. Unfortunately, the options for getting from Michigan to Toronto without a car aren’t great. While there’s VIA service to Windsor, there is no pedestrian crossing, no intercity bus, and transit service across with the Tunnel Bus from Detroit is still suspended (and getting a cab from where I live in Ann Arbor would be quite expensive if you could even find a driver to go that far). Flying is expensive and means you land in the hell that is Pearson airport (unfortunately, Detroit has no flights to the smaller island airport, or I may have done that). I don’t drive, though this lack of options would be an issue even for someone who could drive - if you drove to Windsor to catch VIA there, you’d have to get back there somehow if taking the Empire Builder back.

To solve this, I got creative, taking multiple airport shuttles to make my way to Toronto without ever getting on a plane or in a car. First, after catching a local bus to downtown Ann Arbor, I caught a Michigan Flyer shuttle to Detroit Metro airport. From there, I caught the Robert Q Airbus shuttle to cross the border. They are based out of London, Ontario (or “Fake London”, as YouTuber Not Just Bikes calls it), but pick up at both Detroit and Toronto airports with various drop-off points in between. My shuttle showed up on time, and we crossed using the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel - there was a back-up in the tunnel, though we eventually made it through. We had to exit the shuttle after the border to do customs/immigration in a building, though we at least didn’t have to drag our luggage in. That went smoothly - one of the people in our shuttle got an extra surprise gift of a random take-home COVID test, though not me (and I was happy I didn’t have to figure out how to do that and drop it off before my departure). 

From there, our shuttle ended up going nonstop to London, Ontario. I had considered having them drop me off in Windsor and taking VIA Corridor service to Toronto, but the designated shuttle stop for Windsor was the other side of town and I was afraid that plus border delays would have me miss my train. As it turns out, they would have let me just get off after clearing the border, which would have given me more than enough time even with the delay in the tunnel. Though I had just taken the VIA corridor 6 weeks ago, and I had never seen the highway route to Toronto. That wasn’t anything super-special, besides slightly-different highway signs from the US (including a few in French). We made a few stops in London en route to the Robert Q terminal (yes, this airport shuttle has its own terminal building). When we got there we found that my connecting shuttle to Toronto had left without me, though my driver from Detroit radioed them down and met them before they got far. 

From there, it was a smooth trip to Toronto Pearson Airport, though I was disappointed they pulled into Terminal 3 before Terminal 1 (weirdly there is no Terminal 2), since I wanted to catch the UP Express downtown from the latter. That made me just barely miss a train, and have to wait almost 30 minutes for the next one. Once we got moving, I made a spur-the-moment decision to exist at Bloor instead of Union since that would be a few dollars cheaper (and thus I wouldn’t have to refill my Presto to transfer to the subway at Union). In the process, I got a bit lost looking for the transfer from Bloor to Dundas West station - while the map makes it look like the same station, it’s actually more like Chicago Union Station to Quincy or Clinton. That set me back a little more time, as did the subway getting stuck for a while once I was on it (and dragging my luggage up and down stairs didn’t help). 

Eventually I finally got to my hotel, about an hour later than I had hoped given the mishaps (and it would have even earlier had I just got off the shuttle in Windsor and caught VIA). I stayed at The Rex Hotel, which is connected a jazz and blues bar. Fairly primitive, but it had good reviews and was far less expensive than other options by Union, and I just wanted a place to sleep close to Union Station so I could make the train in the morning with minimum hassle. Almost splurged for the Royal York, but it would have cost 3 times as much, and most other hotels available in the vicinity were close to that. Ended up eating at the bar, though I didn’t stay for the music since I just wanted to get to bed before the big trip.


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## thully (Aug 1, 2022)

My night in Toronto was kind of restless - I was afraid I’d oversleep and miss the train (and given it’s biweekly, it would be near impossible to reschedule and one would likely lose the money as a no-show). While I had set my phone and iPad alarm, there was no other alarm in the room, and I had experienced a malfunctioning phone alarm before. Also, while the music didn’t bother me, there was a lot of noise from Queen Street that made it hard to sleep. In any case, I did wake up at 7am as intended, and walked to the station after quickly showering and packing up everything. 

Got to the station, and then tracked down the baggage room to check my bag. I usually carry on with Amtrak since they allow large bags on trains and my station doesn’t do checked baggage, though sleeper passengers on VIA can’t take large bags on the train. As such, I removed a duffel bag full of what I needed for the ride from my bag, and checked the remainder. Then I found the business lounge to make sure I got checked in and got my meal reservation - they had us choose between 1st/2nd/3rd seating for both, and I chose 2nd. To my disappointment they didn’t have temporary luggage storage like Amtrak lounges, so I had to schlep my duffel bag around while I got breakfast and cash at Union Station. Got back there, and the lounge was far more crowded. We soon boarded the train, and I made my way to my sleeper, which was a cabin for 2 (at the time I booked, it was actually slightly less expensive than a cabin for 1).

After boarding, I quickly made my way to the Skyline lounge car to see the views as we exited Toronto. This was my first time seeing an actual dome car - while Amtrak’s sightseer lounge has better views out the sides, the dome allows you to see out the top of the car. Stayed there for a while, though I ended up heading back to my sleeper so I could charge my phone and take my mask off for a little while. While the Skyline car does have a couple outlets, they aren’t conveniently located, unlike the Amtrak sightseer lounge. The lack of outlets is definitely one reason I didn’t choose a berth (though the ability to take your mask off in the enclosed room also played a role). I went to lunch, and had a skewer of shrimp/scallops that was pretty good. Eventually went back to the Skyline car as car attendant passed out small wine glasses and later talked about the Muskoka region as we passed by numerous lakes in Ontario’s cottage country. Mostly hung there until 4pm came, the time which us non-Prestige passengers are allowed access to the Park car.

I had heard of the Park car before this trip, and definitely wanted to check it out as soon as it opened. I understand that many prefer taking the Canadian in winter due to non-Prestige passengers having unlimited access to the Park car then (in addition to lower fares). While the winter scenery would be cool, I’d much rather visit the destinations served by this train in summer (and I’m staying 7 nights in Vancouver and 1 in Seattle for this trip). In the winter I’d prefer the warm destinations served by the Southwest Chief and the Florida trains, so I guess its a tradeoff. The car itself seemed similar in design to the Skyline car, but refurbished with nicer leather seats and more outlets (the bottom-level seats all had them). It basically seemed like the business class version of the Skyline car, though with the added bonus of the railfan window out the back of the train. Ended up bumping into a couple with University of Michigan Alumni Association name tags - was kind of cool to run into fellow Wolverines on this train journey. Stayed there for a while, though headed back to my sleeper before dinner.

Right before the 2nd dinner call, we approached our first fresh air stop of Capreol. Decided to get off the train and stretch my legs, and then reboarded and went down to the end of the Skyline car to await the dinner call. It ended up being delayed - the original estimate was 7pm ,but it ended up being 7:45ish. It seems the stop delayed dinner a bit, and they do the Prestige passengers first to do their bonus appetizer. By the time I ate I was quite hungry, and on top of that was told that the only thing left for the next day’s dining was the third seating (with an estimated dinner time of 8:30). Got the steak with mashed potatoes, and even ate the cake (I’m not usually a cake person but was hungry). By the time I got back to my room, the bed was down and the sun was going down (and my phone had no service, having lost it slightly after Capreol), so I decided to go to bed so that I could get up early for sunrise and to make the early breakfast.


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## pennyk (Aug 1, 2022)

Thanks for the report. I am anxious to hear of your experience compared to mine (in December 2011, but also in a room for 2).


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 1, 2022)

I'm looking forward to the rest of your report. Very clever thinking in linking the bus shuttle routes to get all the way from Ann Arbor to Toronto.


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## mcropod (Aug 1, 2022)

I'll be along with you for the ride, if you're OK with that! I was lucky enough to travel on the EB then the Canadian in pre-plague times and had bags of fun. Riding in one of the dome cars on VIA was a great way to see the country.


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## thully (Aug 2, 2022)

I slept OK in my first night on the Canadian - struggled a bit at first, but eventually was able to sleep well (certainly better than in Toronto without the worry of missing my train). Got up around 7, and surprisingly had a cell signal right when I woke up, so I paused to check e-mail and other things online while I could (which was brief). After that I showered and got dressed to go down for breakfast. While the cabin for 2 (and cabin for 1 as well) have their own toilet and sink, they do share a shower, which is one area that Amtrak bedrooms are better (though I’ve never done a bedroom on Amtrak before). The toilet is at least in its own room in the cabin for 2, unlike in a cabin for 1 where the bed covers it. Breakfast had a bit of a wait by the time I got down there - unlike lunch and dinner, it was first-come, first-serve. The people who I sat with were speaking French and ordering in French - the menus (as well as the train announcements) are in both English/French as those are both official languages of Canada, and I assume crew have to be able to speak both.

After that I went back to my room and went to the Skyline lounge a bit. Ended up reading a book for a little while, but wanted to make sure I got back to the Skyline lounge for the car attendant to give a little talk about Ontario. Right before he could start, we came up on our fresh air stop of Sioux Lookout, so that was postponed to after the break. Given that I was wondering when my lunch would end up being, since 3rd call was supposed to be 1:30 (right around our stop time). Since it was going to be after our stop, I went ahead and got off the train, and was surprised to see almost no platform - we got off the train and stepped onto dirt. Reboarded the train and finally got the Ontario talk, after which I was called for lunch, at this point after 2pm.

Had a hamburger for lunch as well as chocolate ice cream, which was pretty good as I was quite hungry having such a late meal time. However, getting the late meal times did give us first choice for tomorrow - at which point I took the first meal time. The lunch is a bit early, but with the delays actually getting served I figure it won’t be too bad, and I think we won’t pick last for the next day like non-Prestige 2nd sitting passengers evidently do. By the time I finished it was after 3 - at which point I went back to the room for a little while, charged my phone, and started writing the first few posts of this report while I awaited the 4pm opening of the Park car to non-Prestige. At that point, I made a bee-line to that car, and found that the top was full with some kind of tour group having a meeting. I stayed on the bottom level and finished my report while looking out the rear railfan window, and eventually spotted a seat upstairs when the tour group cleared out. Had wanted to go back to the Skyline for a talk on Manitoba at 5:30, but kind of forgot once I was in the Park car.

The scenery for this portion of the trip (and earlier today) was actually quite nice - lots of lakes and rivers to see in this part of Ontario. I’ve heard people say that the Canadian east of Winnipeg is boring as far as scenery, but I’d say it tops most of Amtrak east of the Rockies. Went downstairs and saw another person from that Michigan alumni group as well as one I saw yesterday. They wondered where I had been all day, at which point I explained I was not in the tour group and only had a regular sleeper ticket (I was pretty sure they were in Prestige, as were most of the tour groups - which leads me to wonder if these groups are getting a bulk discount of some sort…). That is definitely something I don’t like about the separation between Prestige and regular class - we don’t get to see everyone all the time…

At second dinner call the Park car nearly emptied out - figure the Prestige passengers all take that time as it’s not too early or late. It also helped that we had a fresh air stop in Redditt, ON - since that was the first time I had cell service in a while, I thought it might be funny to joke that it was named due to being your chance to post on Reddit. Had the top dome nearly to myself, and the bottom didn’t have many people either. Ended up having a drink, then went back to my car before we reached Winnipeg as I wanted to say goodbye to my attendant and give a tip. I asked about when dinner would be served for 3rd seating as it was supposed to happen around the time of our Winnipeg stop. Glad I did, because it turns out it was happening during the Winnipeg stop - had I got off I would have missed it. There were very few people in the diner - wonder if some got off and missed it (hopefully they got food in Winnipeg somewhere). Felt kind of weird - almost like that early last meal on a long-distance train coming into Chicago. Had cod with potatoes and tried the soup since they had no salad due to supply issues, as well as a chocolate dessert. The meal was great - I’d say the cod was the best entree I’d had so far on the trip. Went back to the room after, and now about to head to bed. Looking forward to Saskatchewan and Alberta tomorrow. Hoping by taking 1st meal instead of 2nd I avoid 3rd the next day, while still getting to visit the Park car when empty.


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## OBS (Aug 2, 2022)

What a great report. I always love riding that train!


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## Marbleski (Aug 2, 2022)

Loves this. Thanks for sharing with us.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 2, 2022)

Since I'm not from Michigan, I was thinking that the way I would connect from VIA's Canadian to the Empire Builder would be the VIA/Amtrak Maple Leaf to Buffalo, then the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago. (In that direction would probably be at the end of the trip, since my hometown is much closer to the starting point of the westbound EB in Chicago; otherwise, the reverse of those directions might work if hubby & I wanted to do the Canadian first.) I like your creative solution to getting from Michigan to Toronto, though! Something along those lines would be a possibility for us if we wanted to make a stop at the Spinrite Yarn Factory Outlet in Listowel, ON -- although Listowel isn't a stop on the Corridor service Windsor-Toronto (I think), and I'd probably have to arrange to have most of my purchases shipped directly home, as lugging along more yarn than I'd need for a week's worth of crocheting on the Canadian + EB would be a pain.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 2, 2022)

Ah, what a great life. 

When the only things to worry about are what times meals will be and when you can get into the Park Car!

So glad you’re enjoying the trip and taking us along! Thank you!


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## Northwestern (Aug 2, 2022)

thully said:


> For a while, the two long-distance trains I’ve most wanted to ride have been the Canadian and the Empire Builder - a pair of trains that work quite nicely as a round-trip loop - and despite planning this late I finally managed to put it together this year. My trip started with me making my way to Toronto on Saturday, July 30th, so that I would be there to board the Canadian the next morning. Unfortunately, the options for getting from Michigan to Toronto without a car aren’t great. While there’s VIA service to Windsor, there is no pedestrian crossing, no intercity bus, and transit service across with the Tunnel Bus from Detroit is still suspended (and getting a cab from where I live in Ann Arbor would be quite expensive if you could even find a driver to go that far). Flying is expensive and means you land in the hell that is Pearson airport (unfortunately, Detroit has no flights to the smaller island airport, or I may have done that). I don’t drive, though this lack of options would be an issue even for someone who could drive - if you drove to Windsor to catch VIA there, you’d have to get back there somehow if taking the Empire Builder back.
> 
> To solve this, I got creative, taking multiple airport shuttles to make my way to Toronto without ever getting on a plane or in a car. First, after catching a local bus to downtown Ann Arbor, I caught a Michigan Flyer shuttle to Detroit Metro airport. From there, I caught the Robert Q Airbus shuttle to cross the border. They are based out of London, Ontario (or “Fake London”, as YouTuber Not Just Bikes calls it), but pick up at both Detroit and Toronto airports with various drop-off points in between. My shuttle showed up on time, and we crossed using the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel - there was a back-up in the tunnel, though we eventually made it through. We had to exit the shuttle after the border to do customs/immigration in a building, though we at least didn’t have to drag our luggage in. That went smoothly - one of the people in our shuttle got an extra surprise gift of a random take-home COVID test, though not me (and I was happy I didn’t have to figure out how to do that and drop it off before my departure).
> 
> ...


 I have been interested, for a long time, in a loop journey connecting the Empire Builder with the VIA Canadian. It was encouraging news with the proposal for a passenger train between Detroit and Toronto, which was part of the "Connect Us" plan for the expansion of Amtrak routes throughout the country. However, I'm not optimistic that the proposed route will ever happen.

Another thought, how about a trip east, on the Builder, to St. Paul/Minneapolis. I believe there is a `1.5 hour flight, on Delta, from St Paul/Minneapolis to Winnipeg, MB. Board the Canadian in Winnipeg headed west to Vancouver, BC. Then a Cascade to Seattle to complete the loop. Of course, such a plan would eliminate Toronto. I guess you could fly from MSP to Toronto if desired.


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## GAT (Aug 2, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> I have been interested, for a long time, in a loop journey connecting the Empire Builder with the VIA Canadian. It was encouraging news with the proposal for a passenger train between Detroit and Toronto, which was part of the "Connect Us" plan for the expansion of Amtrak routes throughout the country. However, I'm not optimistic that the proposed route will ever happen.
> 
> Another thought, how about a trip east, on the Builder, to St. Paul/Minneapolis. I believe there is a `1.5 hour flight, on Delta, from St Paul/Minneapolis to Winnipeg, MB. Board the Canadian in Winnipeg headed west to Vancouver, BC. Then a Cascade to Seattle to complete the loop. Of course, such a plan would eliminate Toronto. I guess you could fly from MSP to Toronto if desired.


Not only would that plan eliminate Toronto, but also, IMHO, the gorgeous scenery through Ontario around Georgian Bay and Lake Superior. However, you'd only have to tip one SCA.  Also, if you're going to fly to Toronto, why not stay on the EB all the way to Chicago?


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## thully (Aug 2, 2022)

If you wanted to do the Chicago-Toronto part of the loop via Michigan, I’d probably recommend a cab between Detroit and Windsor until the Tunnel Bus resumes operations - the shuttle I used left from Detroit Metro Airport, which would be out of the way from the train (and the fare would be comparable to a cab from downtown Detroit/Windsor). I know Checker Cab in Detroit and Veterans Cab in Windsor cross the border, though you’d have to call for a cab and specifically request one that can cross the border (and may want to see about reserving in advance). Would recommend that over Uber/Lyft because there you can’t guarantee the driver you get has the proper documents to cross the border.


MccfamschoolMom said:


> Since I'm not from Michigan, I was thinking that the way I would connect from VIA's Canadian to the Empire Builder would be the VIA/Amtrak Maple Leaf to Buffalo, then the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago. (In that direction would probably be at the end of the trip, since my hometown is much closer to the starting point of the westbound EB in Chicago; otherwise, the reverse of those directions might work if hubby & I wanted to do the Canadian first.) I like your creative solution to getting from Michigan to Toronto, though! Something along those lines would be a possibility for us if we wanted to make a stop at the Spinrite Yarn Factory Outlet in Listowel, ON -- although Listowel isn't a stop on the Corridor service Windsor-Toronto (I think), and I'd probably have to arrange to have most of my purchases shipped directly home, as lugging along more yarn than I'd need for a week's worth of crocheting on the Canadian + EB would be a pain


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## thully (Aug 2, 2022)

Last night I slept about as well as the first night on the train- a bit rough at first, but eventually fell asleep. Got up and took a shower and headed to breakfast, where I had to be put on the waitlist (though I got to have coffee, juice, and muffins in the Skyline lounge while I waited). When I got back I was surprised to find my bed still down despite putting the “please clean cabin” sign up (my previous car attendant had put it down while I was in the shower, even before breakfast). Tried to locate my attendant and couldn't find him. Eventually found him at the stop in Saskatoon and asked about it and he said that he had not been around due to being on night duty. I would have tried to put the bed down myself, but I recall seeing the Cabin for 2 requires special tools to do so (unlike the cabin for 1 which is simpler).

Went to my early lunch sitting after spending some time in the Skyline car, and had the shrimp+scallops skewer (wanted the turkey but it came premade with lettuce and tomato I did not want). Thought it didn’t taste as good as it did a couple days ago for some reason (though they did give me a lot of vanilla ice cream for dessert which filled me up), and came back to find my bed still down. Found my attendant and he said that my previous attendant said I asked to keep it down, which I definitely did not. Finally the bed put down, and got my phone charged (since there are no outlets in the Skyline car in a good location). Stayed there for a while, and then headed back to the Skyline until I could go to the Park car at 4pm. The scenery through Saskatchewan was pretty much like Nebraska - quite flat - though seeing the vastness of the prairies was quite a sight, even if it might not be the best scenery. Though the Zephyr crosses Nebraska at night, and the Canadian goes through Saskatchewan during the day.

Soon before it was time to hit the Park car, we crossed into Alberta, and the scenery became more interesting. We crossed a large bridge over the Battle River, and it felt like we were way up high from the top of the Park car. My time in the Park car didn’t last long, though, as I had the 5pm dinner reservation. Went back a bit before then to drop some things off at my sleeper, and the call was made pretty much on time (unlike my experiences with 2nd and 3rd dinner). Had the prime rib and mashed potatoes, and got the chocolate mousse cake, which I didn’t up eating since it was rock-hard (unlike the similar-sounding cake I had ordered previously on this train that was much softer).

In the dining car they announced that the train would be making a 3 hour stop in Jasper from 6:30-9:30am (with boarding closed from 8-9), and meals would function a bit differently tomorrow - breakfast from 6:30-8:30 would be continental, and brunch would be served first-come/first-serve from 9:30-1:30, with early diners getting early dinner reservations and late diners getting late dinner reservations. However, beyond that, I had noticed that we were in fact almost in Edmonton, despite that stop not being until 8:50. Asked about it, and that was indeed the case, though we need to wait for #2 to leave Edmonton before pulling into the station. I also noticed that the departure from Edmonton wasn’t until midnight, so we’d be basically sitting there for 5 hours. This was a disappointment - there was no more scenery to be seen, and the Edmonton station isnt particularly close to town (and the announcement adviser passengers to not stray too far). Asked about this, and this is due to the extensive padding in the schedule, which I had heard about - the Canadian used to be only 3 nights, but then CN started inflicting massive delays on the train resulting in the padding being added. Also, when I returned to my sleeper, my bed was already up - perhaps a bit too soon. And for some reason, the outlet stopped charging my phone, and I had to press the Reset button to get it to work). Thought the one benefit of this extended stop would be consistent cell service, though it seemed unusable for a while despite 5 bars and still slow - maybe the trains are overloading the towers with the train stopped…

Had I known about the long, early stop in Edmonton and the different procedure for meals tomorrow I would have definitely taken a later dinner time and enjoyed the Park car more (though I may perhaps hit the bar there, which is fortunately still open through this long layover).. Overall, I’d say this was my least enjoyable day so far given the bed/food situations and the early, long Edmonton stop, though it still beats a normal workday! I figure I may call it a night early so I can make sure I’m up for Jasper - something my car attendant may have anticipated with the early bed turn-down…


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## thully (Aug 3, 2022)

During last night’s long Edmonton layover, I in fact ended up going to the Park car for drinks, and that made the time more enjoyable - also saw someone from that Michigan tour group I had previously met down there. After that, I did go to sleep, though I ended up going fairly late (was following some municipal election results back home). Eventually fell asleep - woke up a few times, and finally decided to get up for good around 5:45 with the Jasper stop coming up. As it turned out we had lost time overnight and the Jasper stop was further out than I had guessed, but it did give me time to shower and get the continental breakfast in the diner (which was served like a normal breakfast, albeit with a menu with “continental” being the only option). They actually had a physical menu like that, which was a bit funny. 

After that, I decided to skip deboarding at the Jasper stop as we only had 45 minutes instead of 3 hours, and would have to wait to reboard with gloomy cold weather outside. Figured grabbing a spot in the Skyline dome ahead of the reboarding was a better use of that time. I didn’t regret that, though the reboarding and departure took a bit longer than expected, which made me with I had waited a bit longer to stock up on coffee first (wish I had brought one of my large insulated mugs…) The scenery was the best so far on this trip, and the best I had seen on any train (the Zephyr and Starlight/Surfliner are close, but I’d say this is better). Didn’t get to see Mount Robson (it was too cloudy) but saw many other mountains, Pyramid Falls, and a river that paralleled the mountains for a long distance. We also got some bonus scenery east of Jasper due to our late arrival, which made up a bit for our stop being shortened.

After a while in the dome, I decided to go get brunch as I was getting hungry. Ended up on the waitlist, though was eventually called. Got the “transcontinental” (eggs+meat), which was good. The one thing that wasn’t great was our dinner assignments - we got the dreaded third sitting, even though I came in before the usual time for second sitting lunch. Worse, dinner was on Pacific time (while brunch was on Mountain), which meant it was an hour later, and we have an early arrival into Vancouver. This would be OK if they shifted the sitting times up a couple hours to account for the time change and early brunch, but they don’t. Asked about snacks in the lounge car, and they really just had the fruit/cookies/pastries. This is one area where Amtrak is superior to VIA, as they have the cafe car (perhaps we could go check out what the coaches have, but I’m not sure we’re allowed there and it’s like 20 cars away). The one other option I was given was room service for the 1st or 2nd seating, which I decided to do - though it does mean I have to go back to my room ahead of the seating, which is a bit annoying given I want to hit the Park car at 4pm.


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

I initially decided to do the room service for the 2nd sitting, and made my way to the Park car at 4pm. Enjoyed the scenery from the dome, though started to feel hungry sooner and wanted to go to my room so I could take my mask off - it didn’t bother me most of this trip, but with today’s scenery I’d spent the majority of the time in the domes instead of my sleeper. Went back to my sleeper around 4:45 and was able to do first sitting in my room - had chicken, potatoes, salad, and the chocolate truffle (which was the dessert I had enjoyed a few days ago and not the hard chocolate mousse). When I was eating someone I recognized from the lounge car came by my sleeper and said I could come eat now since here weren’t too many people, though at that point I had already eaten. While I ate I didn’t miss much - most of the interesting celery was visible out my window, and halfway through the meal we began our extended stop in Kamloops. We saw the Rocky Mountaineer pass through - at some point it may be interesting to do that given all the scenery would be in daylight, though their poor refund policy had me hesitant to do that while COVID is still around.

After dinner I made my way back to the Park car, where I saw one of the people from the tour group I had talked to the previous couple nights, Talked a little while more, but then she and others in here group had to go for the 2nd dinner call, though other people I recognized did sit down in the lounge around then. At that point we left Kamloops and I returned to the dome, and the scenery after that point was possibly better than what we had seen earlier in the morning, Our train paralleled Kamloops Lake for a long distance, and we went through a series of tunnels, the first of which brought back memories of the Moffat Tunnel on the Zephyr. Our train made several turns where we could see the other cars turning in a loop, and I was reminded a bit of doing the Tehachapi Loop detour on the Coast Starlight almost 10 years ago.

After the tunnels and Kamloops Lake, it rapidly became too dark to see anything, so I moved to the lower level of the Park car. Ended up getting a couple drinks, and talked to some of the few people remaining and the bartenders about my trip and plans both in Vancouver (which at this point include possibly going to an MLS and CFL game, as well as spending some time by the ocean and checking out the SkyTrain system) and to ride the Empire Builder. I definitely picked the right direction to do this and the Empire Builder - you only get the Kamloops scenery going westbound, and with the schedule change may only get Glacier National Park going eastbound. There was also talk about the tour group, which was apparently organized by a company called Orbridge and included alumni from a number of universities. The bartenders also expressed their dislike for the Rocky Mountaineer, due to being competition and strictly a tourist train… 

Had hoped to see some of the people who went to second dinner return, but they did not - given the early morning I don’t blame them, Decided to head back and get ready for bed (and write this). While I was afraid 4 nights might be too much when I booked this (and it would likely be better if they could get CN to treat them better, remove padding, and make it 3 nights again with a later arrival and no 5 hour stops at the middle-of-nowhere Edmonton station), though it ended up being great. Just wish I was still getting to do things with people I saw on the train once in Vancouver…


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 4, 2022)

Really enjoying your reports, and I agree with your statement that the Canadian should return to its previous Schedule and be treated better by the Dispatchers.

When you get to Vancouver, if you haven't been over to Vancouver Island to see Victoria, it's really worth the Bus ride and Ferry trip, or if you want to splurge you can take one of the Float Planes for the quicker trip which really gives you more time to see this Gem of a City and the breath taking views of the area!


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

Went to bed, and it seemed like our train did not move at all for 2 hours - was woke up at 2am when it finally started lurching forward. Woke up again shortly after 5 while making our second-to-last stop in Abbotsford, and ultimately got up a bit before 6 since I wanted to see the Fraser River scenery. Showered, left a tip for my attendant (despite the mixup the morning after Winnipeg, he really helped out with the room service meal last night) and went to the dining car, only to find they had a waitlist. Was surprised - figured many would skip it with the early arrival, but I wanted to have one last breakfast on the train (and possibly see some of the people I’ve met for the last time). Was told that even if we got into the station we could still eat, and ended up waiting and eventually was served.

As we rolled into Vancouver, we passed over a bridge and started to see more populated areas. As we closed in on the station, I noticed the line of aptly-named Cantrail buses (“Can’t Rail”) that substitute for the Cascades to Seattle (and I will be riding, unless I changed my mind and went via Victoria), as well as the SkyTrain which I definitely want to ride while I’m here (and possibly a loop with the West Coast Express that leaves out of the old CP station). Also saw a BNSF facility fo some sort - surprised to see any major freight railway here in Canada that isn’t CN or CP. Did the transcontinental again, and saw the one person who didn’t return to the Park Car after second seating last night in and said goodbye.

Finished breakfast shortly after our train stopped, and went back to my sleeper to collect everything and pack up. Left the train, and made my way to the station to collect my bag. It was chaos just like luggage claim at the airport - I hadn’t seen my large bag since Toronto, and I hoped to see it soon. Luckily I did, and I shoved the duffel I used for the train inside so I could easily wheel it around. Not wanting to repeat my struggles with stairs getting to my Toronto hotel, I requested an Uber there. Got there, and was fortunately able to get into my room early.

All in all it was a great trip. The highlights were yesterday’s scenery around Jasper and Kamloops, as well as the Park car (and the first couple days in Ontario was significantly better than expected). Aside from getting third sitting at dinner a couple times (which I found room service can save you from) and the bed mishap after Winnipeg, my only disappointment was not getting to use the Park car more - both the car itself and seeing the people I got to know in Prestige who usually gathered in there. I do get why people like to book in Winter, though wondering if the perfect balance of weather, sunlight, cost, and Park car access might be to go right before the Park car restrictions start or right after they end. If price is no object Prestige would be the way to go, but price is an object for most people.

While I’m happy to be in Vancouver, I kind of wish I was in one of the tour groups still doing stuff with people I saw on the train instead of on my own (though there are some things I want to do that I may be the only one who wants to, like the CFL game). Looking forward to doing stuff here (and a possible side trip to Victoria, though I’m not sure if that works well as a day trip or if I’d need to change my itinerary to add an overnight), and returning via Seattle and the Empire Builder.


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

I'm happy that you are allowing yourself plenty of time in my beautiful home town of Vancouver. And Bob Dylan's suggestion about Victoria is spot on. Of his two alternatives, I would recommend the ferry if only for the trip through Active Pass, a tricky S-curve through a narrow passage where, if they are both on schedule, two large ferries pass each other right in the middle of the pass. Lots of horn blowing and manufactured excitement.  You could combine both methods: ferry over and float plane back, which should land you right in Vancouver Harbor downtown.

And since you seem to like like dining experiences (as I do), I highly recommend one dinner at The Observatory on the top of Grouse Mountain (about 3700 feet above the ocean almost directly below). I haven't been back to Vancouver in several years, but the food used to be very good, and the current published menu looks just as appetizing. If you are there during the twilight hours, you will have spectacular views of the city lights coming up and the sun going down over Vancouver Island. The gondola ride to the top is free if you have a confirmed dinner reservation.

Sorry.....I just can't avoid my enthusiasm when it comes to Vancouver (even though I now live in beautiful San Francisco).


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

GAT said:


> I'm happy that you are allowing yourself plenty of time in my beautiful home town of Vancouver. And Bob Dylan's suggestion about Victoria is spot on. Of his two alternatives, I would recommend the ferry if only for the trip through Active Pass, a tricky S-curve through a narrow passage where, if they are both on schedule, two large ferries pass each other right in the middle of the pass. Lots of horn blowing and manufactured excitement.  You could combine both methods: ferry over and float plane back, which should land you right in Vancouver Harbor downtown.
> 
> And since you seem to like like dining experiences (as I do), I highly recommend one dinner at The Observatory on the top of Grouse Mountain (about 3700 feet above the ocean almost directly below). I haven't been back to Vancouver in several years, but the food used to be very good, and the current published menu looks just as appetizing. If you are there during the twilight hours, you will have spectacular views of the city lights coming up and the sun going down over Vancouver Island. The gondola ride to the top is free if you have a confirmed dinner reservation.
> 
> Sorry.....I just can't avoid my enthusiasm when it comes to Vancouver (even though I now live in beautiful San Francisco).


Also, if you want to see Victoria, you could go over on your final day and then take the 5:00pm fast ferry from downtown Victoria to downtown Seattle. It takes a little less than three hours (very scenic) and it would get you there the evening before you board the EB (or earlier if you're spending time in Seattle).


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## jiml (Aug 4, 2022)

Great report @thully and I hope you're planning to document the ride back on the EB. Second the others who suggest Victoria if you have time and won't return to the area.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 4, 2022)

GAT said:


> I'm happy that you are allowing yourself plenty of time in my beautiful home town of Vancouver. And Bob Dylan's suggestion about Victoria is spot on. Of his two alternatives, I would recommend the ferry if only for the trip through Active Pass, a tricky S-curve through a narrow passage where, if they are both on schedule, two large ferries pass each other right in the middle of the pass. Lots of horn blowing and manufactured excitement.  You could combine both methods: ferry over and float plane back, which should land you right in Vancouver Harbor downtown.
> 
> And since you seem to like like dining experiences (as I do), I highly recommend one dinner at The Observatory on the top of Grouse Mountain (about 3700 feet above the ocean almost directly below). I haven't been back to Vancouver in several years, but the food used to be very good, and the current published menu looks just as appetizing. If you are there during the twilight hours, you will have spectacular views of the city lights coming up and the sun going down over Vancouver Island. The gondola ride to the top is free if you have a confirmed dinner reservation.
> 
> Sorry.....I just can't avoid my enthusiasm when it comes to Vancouver (even though I now live in beautiful San Francisco).


Is the "Salmon House" still Open? Best Salmon I've ever had, but that was back in the 80s when I lived there for a year, and early 90s when we visited for The Worlds Fair!


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

I definitely want to get to Victoria - how much time would you recommend there? I could just go the day I go to Seattle, though I may be able to shorten my time in Vancouver to add more time there. Also, if I take the fast ferry to Seattle, is it possible to check my bags there early so I can explore the town without lugging them around? It seems that I can actually buy the ferry ticket through Amtrak and thus change my Can’t Rail bus reservation into a ferry without penalty (if you can’t rail, a ferry seems to be a better alternative than a bus, particularly if I want to do Victoria anyways…)


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

I don't know whether you can check your bags early, but the ferry lays over for about seven hours in Victoria, so it just might be possible. I would call the ferry office for details and about how/where you clear US Customs and Immigration.


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 4, 2022)

Enjoyed your trip report. VIA across Canada is still on our bucket list. Did ride The Ocean a few years ago to Halifax and highly recommend that ride. Look forward to your Vancouver to Seattle and EB ride home.


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Is the "Salmon House" still Open? Best Salmon I've ever had, but that was back in the 80s when I lived there for a year, and early 90s when we visited for The Worlds Fair!


The Salmon House on the Hill is still operating, according to its website. It had a great reputation, but I never got there. It's located halfway up Hollyburn in West Vancouver. My favorite seafood restaurant was The Cannery, right on the city waterfront alongside the industrial piers. Unfortunately, it had to close after the government locked that area down after 9/11.

The Expo 86 site along False Creek is now a beautifully redeveloped area of high-rise apartments, parks, restaurants, etc.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 4, 2022)

thully said:


> I definitely want to get to Victoria - how much time would you recommend there? I could just go the day I go to Seattle, though I may be able to shorten my time in Vancouver to add more time there. Also, if I take the fast ferry to Seattle, is it possible to check my bags there early so I can explore the town without lugging them around? It seems that I can actually buy the ferry ticket through Amtrak and thus change my Can’t Rail bus reservation into a ferry without penalty (if you can’t rail, a ferry seems to be a better alternative than a bus, particularly if I want to do Victoria anyways…)


As nice as Vancouver is, you should spend one night in Victoria ( The Empress is THE Place to be seen and have Tea, but plenty of more reasonable places to stay.)

The Ferry trip from Victoria to Seattle is great, wave to my friends in the Gulf and San Juan Islands as you cruise past!


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## joelkfla (Aug 4, 2022)

thully said:


> Was told that even if we got into the station we could still eat, and ended up waiting and eventually was served.


A dining car that doesn't close a half hour before arriving at the terminus? What a novel idea!


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> A dining car that doesn't close a half hour before arriving at the terminus? What a novel idea!


Yeah. I was happy about that, and happy they wouldn’t kick us off the train as soon as we arrived. Did not want an arrival like the westbound Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle in LAX… They still could learn from Amtrak with respect to the cafe car - aside from a few-odd complimentary pastries and fruit, there really isn’t a great place to grab snacks for sleeper passengers between meals. Seems like they could offer snacks out of the lounge cars in addition to drinks…


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

GAT said:


> I don't know whether you can check your bags early, but the ferry lays over for about seven hours in Victoria, so it just might be possible. I would call the ferry office for details and about how/where you clear US Customs and Immigration.


I looked on their website - luggage storage and checked luggage is available. US Customs and Immigration is done in Victoria starting an hour before departure - kind of amazed that they can clear a full boat in an hour. I know they do something like that for Canada to US flights, the Cascades (do they do buses at Pacific Central Station also?), and I did US pre-clearance in Dublin, Ireland when flying back to the US. Figure I may go ahead and do this, but have to decide whether I cut my Vancouver stay a day or two short or come in same day (in which case I’d only have a few hours).


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> As nice as Vancouver is, you should spend one night in Victoria ( The Empress is THE Place to be seen and have Tea, but plenty of more reasonable places to stay.)
> 
> The Ferry trip from Victoria to Seattle is great, wave to my friends in the Gulf and San Juan Islands as you cruise past!


One of the people I saw in the Park car with the tour group was actually from the San Juan Islands, though currently living in Southern California.


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

thully said:


> I but have to decide whether I cut my Vancouver stay a day or two short or come in same day (in which case I’d only have a few hours).


That's a hard one for sure. If you go for one day, provided you get an early start from Vancouver, you could probably see the not-to-be-missed parts of town , but not The Butchart Gardens. The downtown area around the Inner Harbor is very walkable and would keep you busy - Legislature Building, The Royal Museum, Craigdarroch Castle, and absolutely The Empress for high tea before you board the ferry.


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

GAT said:


> That's a hard one for sure. If you go for one day, provided you get an early start from Vancouver, you could probably see the not-to-be-missed parts of town , but not The Butchart Gardens. The downtown area around the Inner Harbor is very walkable and would keep you busy - Legislature Building, The Royal Museum, Craigdarroch Castle, and absolutely The Empress for high tea before you board the ferry.


Yeah - it seems I won’t get a refund if I leave my hotel early as well. If I went day of, the bus+ferry looks like it takes almost 4 hours so I wouldn’t have a ton of time, though I could do the much quicker seaplane for more money.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 4, 2022)

Just a couple of random things.

1. Yeah, the fact you are allowed to stay on the train until at least the scheduled 8 am arrival no matter how early it gets in and a full breakfast is now served is great. The first couple of years pre-COVID on the "new" schedule it was only a Continental breakfast, but theyre back to full breakfast service. When I rode westbound in April we arrived in Vancouver around 5 am (the switching and backup move into the station woke me up and I noted the time, but went back to sleep), I ate breakfast in the diner sitting in the station.
2. The coach Skyline does offer cafe type service with snacks for sale much like Amtrak. It is a lot more accessible to sleeper passengers with more normal 8-15 car winter train lengths than the summer hormonal monster 26 car trains. Sleeper passengers are allowed in, but may get the stink eye from the economy pax.
3. The BNSF facility you saw was almost certainly the (ex-GN) New Westminister station, now an BNSF MOW facility. BNSF owns the railroad from the US border to CN Junction at Pacific Central Station's throat. You came off CN ownership at the Fraser Bridge. However CN took over dispatching from the bridge on into Vancouver around 2018, IIRC, but the line is still under BNSF ownership.

Glad you enjoyed your trip, the Canadian is a great ride. Your method of getting from Michigan to Toronto was ingenious.


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## GAT (Aug 4, 2022)

thully said:


> Yeah - it seems I won’t get a refund if I leave my hotel early as well. If I went day of, the bus+ferry looks like it takes almost 4 hours so I wouldn’t have a ton of time, though I could do the much quicker seaplane for more money.


Well, I'm confident you're going to have fun no matter how you decide. Like everything in life, there are two sides to the coin. Seaplane costs more, but hey! as the say, "You only live once."  On the other hand, the boat takes longer, but Hey! as they say, "There's always next time." 
As we say in Canada.......Bon voyage!


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## thully (Aug 4, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> Just a couple of random things.
> 
> 1. Yeah, the fact you are allowed to stay on the train until at least the scheduled 8 am arrival no matter how early it gets in and a full breakfast is now served is great. The first couple of years pre-COVID on the "new" schedule it was only a Continental breakfast, but theyre back to full breakfast service. When I rode westbound in April we arrived in Vancouver around 5 am (the switching and backup move into the station woke me up and I noted the time, but went back to sleep), I ate breakfast in the diner sitting in the station.
> 2. The coach Skyline does offer cafe type service with snacks for sale much like Amtrak. It is a lot more accessible to sleeper passengers with more normal 8-15 car winter train lengths than the summer hormonal monster 26 car trains. Sleeper passengers are allowed in, but may get the stink eye from the economy pax.
> ...


It was New Westminster station. As far as the size of the consist, that really didn’t bother me at all, but my sleeper was in car 116, which was only 3 cars from the Skyline, 4 from the diner, and 4 more from the Park car. If my sleeper was in the middle of the consist (or on the opposite end from the Park car), that would probably irritate me a lot more. Didn’t really think about that when booking, though it worked out.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 4, 2022)

thully said:


> It was New Westminster station. As far as the size of the consist, that really didn’t bother me at all, but my sleeper was in car 116, which was only 3 cars from the Skyline, 4 from the diner, and 4 more from the Park car. If my sleeper was in the middle of the consist (or on the opposite end from the Park car), that would probably irritate me a lot more. Didn’t really think about that when booking, though it worked out.


Last time I rode the Canadian ( Pre-COVID)even though it was Winter,there were several Railroad Worker Groups from Canada and the the US riding, so the consist was 22 Cars Long, but fortunately my Car was close to the Diner and the Park Car!


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## jis (Aug 5, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Last time I rode the Canadian ( Pre-COVID)even though it was Winter,there were several Railroad Worker Groups from Canada and the the US riding, so the consist was 22 Cars Long, but fortunately my Car was close to the Diner and the Park Car!


Of the several trips that I have taken on the Canadian, the longest consist was something like 24 cars. But getting to Diner was not an issue since there was a Diner for every five Sleeping Cars. There seemed to be also a Skyline Dome adjacent to each Diner. And of course there was a Park Car (Strathcona Park IIRC) bringing up the hind end.


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## thully (Aug 5, 2022)

On my train, I’m pretty sure there was two diners - diner A and diner B - at each end of the train, with each having a Skyline car (plus the Park car and coach Skyline car). Didn’t walk all the way to the other end so not 100% sure though. Perhaps it is only 5-6 cars at most away, though that would depend on how many coaches there was (since only sleepers use the diners) - I recall there was 22 or 23 cars in total, but not sure of the breakdown. I used diner B, which as about 4 cars away and the one closer to the Park car - would definitely advise anyone booking to get a room close to the diner on the Park car side of the consist.


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## thully (Aug 5, 2022)

Didn’t do much in Vancouver yesterday after arrival - was just too tired. Took a nap, grabbed some lunch and dinner (and Tim Hortons) a few blocks from my hotel, and watched some TV. Slept very well for the first time in a while now that I wasn’t on a train and didn’t have anything to get up early for (save for getting breakfast at the hotel).

After getting said breakfast (and noticing a lot of families with kids there - didn’t really think Vancouver was a popular vacation spot for that…), I set out to change my roomette reservation since there was a lower fare available (and I thought I had lower level and wanted to see if they had upper) . After the automated callback hang up on me once, I did the room change online - it gave me the room next to the one I had as well as well as a voucher.

Called back to change my bus ticket to the ferry and apply that voucher to the difference - the agent I got thought they couldn’t book ferries, but when I gave them the corresponding station codes they were able to do it and apply the voucher. May want to call the ferry company and confirm what I need to do for check-in and luggage (and make sure I can get on board with my Amtrak e-ticket). I didn’t book anything from Vancouver to Victoria yet - while I could book the BC Ferries Connector via Amtrak and use that voucher, the earliest departure is 9:45, arriving in Victoria at 1:30, and I kind of want to get there earlier (shooting for 10am since that’s when the Clipper luggage check opens). Figure I’ll play it by ear - may just Uber from Vancouver to Tswwassen, buy a ferry ticket there, and cab from Swartz Bay to Victoria if I don’t want to deal with luggage on transit. Did look at the seaplane, but I may have too much luggage for that, and the 10am arrival is sold out…

Ate some leftovers from last night for lunch, bought tickets for the Vancouver Whitecaps and BC Lions games, and mostly just hung around the hotel. May walk to the bay shore in a bit before I have to head to the stadium for the Whitecaps game.


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## GAT (Aug 5, 2022)

Whereabouts is your hotel located? Is it within walking distance of Stanley Park? That is a must-see if you have the time.


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## thully (Aug 5, 2022)

I’m at the downtown Residence Inn on Hornby. Looks like a 25min-30min walk, though I could catch the bus to get me at least part of the way or a short Uber…


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## GAT (Aug 5, 2022)

Great location! Just walk south on Hornby and turn right to walk under the Burrard Bridge and head along the waterfront. You'll eventually get to one end of the park, which is huge, about 1,000 acres. There's a restaurant and brew pub shortly after you enter the park, and just a bit farther along the seawall there's the Second Beach food concession where they used to sell the most delicious fresh fish and chips I've had anywhere. Let's hope they still do. And still further along is the up-scale Stanley Park Tea House.

Just before you get to the park, you'll pass the Sylvia Hotel on Beach at Gilford Street. They have a nice bar with picture windows looking out over English Bay. In 1952, I, along with my brother and parents, stepped off the CN transcontinental from Toronto and stayed in the suite on the second floor for two months while my father looked for and purchased a house. I was 12 at the time.

Also, at the foot of Hornby Street is the False Creek Ferry dock, where you can board for a short trip to Granville Island. The farmers market there is a gourmand's delight. Lots of great eating choices in the market and surrounding it. If you're looking for souvenirs to take home, check out he Quebec maple syrup. It comes in different sizes and grades. I recommend the #3 grade; it's cheaper and has a stronger flavor, being from the third tap of the tree. Also, the five-year old Quebec cheddar cheese is pretty much unbeatable IMO. The eight-year old is at least twice as expensive and not that noticeable an upgrade. These items normally can be taken across the border, but I would check with the vendors to be sure of the current rules.

You can also take the ferry on a round trip tour up to the headwaters of False Creek for a unique view of the skyline from the water. The little ferry boats are straight out of a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 5, 2022)

thully said:


> I’m at the downtown Residence Inn on Hornby. Looks like a 25min-30min walk, though I could catch the bus to get me at least part of the way or a short Uber…


As GAT said, be sure and eat some Fish and Chips while you're there! They just taste better in Stanley Park!


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## WWW (Aug 5, 2022)

Wished that this VIA = EB rail link was a complete loop by rail -
but alas way too many bus shuttle taxi uber lyft connections -
The Amtrak Seattle-Vancourver (v-v) is basically a bus trip -
Even when the train ran it was no where making convenient
cruise ship connections.
Connection to the Rocky Mountaineer was a whole nother deal.


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## thully (Aug 6, 2022)

You could do it all-rail before COVID (and should be able to again in September) using the Cascades and LSL+Maple Leaf to connect between the endpoints. If you want to go by Detroit/Windsor, the only gap would be between Detroit Amtrak/Windsor VIA (though in my case I chose to do a shuttle for the Windsor-Toronto part since I was coming from Ann Arbor and concerned about misconnecting with VIA in Windsor). You would have to stay in Toronto and either Vancouver or Seattle overnight (if those aren’t your starting points), but it could (and will be again) doable. While I’m missing out on the Cascades on this trip (and VIA corridor, though I did that in June so not as disappointed), the ferry (which can be booked with Amtrak, so you could call it an Amtrak Thruway Boat) should be an interesting substitute.


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## GAT (Aug 6, 2022)

Boatstitute


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## ScottR (Aug 7, 2022)

I’m absolutely following this trip report. On November 16th a 6.19 pm, I’ll be boarding the Coast Starlight for a ride up the coast to Seattle, then a midnight bus to Vancouver the next day, then The Canadian to Toronto 4.5 days later, then a Corridor to Montreal, and the Ocean to Halifax A day after that. At that point, I will consider my train bucket list complete, and take a series of flights from Halifax, to Boston, To Denver to San Fransisco and then to Monterey

i didn’t make the Orient or the Siberian Express, or that train across Australia, but I made all the Amtrak ones…and now the CanadIan.


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## Michigan Mom (Aug 7, 2022)

What a great report! Thanks for sharing. Very intrigued by all the thoughtful details you provided. This trip is on my bucket list too. Really have to applaud your creativity - you have me beat there. Sure hope the tunnel bus returns soon.


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## thully (Aug 8, 2022)

On Friday afternoon, I walked down to Sunset Park Beach, which was kind of nice - though I didn’t spent that much time as I wanted to get to the Whitecaps game. That was fun - Houston was leading 1-0 most of the way but Vancouver scored twice in the last few minutes (with the winner in stoppage time) to win it. It was a fairly easy walk to/from the stadium - just a straight shot down Davie to Pacific Blvd and the reverse.

On Saturday, I took the short Aquabus ferry ride to Granville Island, and got something to eat. The Public Market was interesting, albeit crowded. Saw a few cheese places, but didn’t see the exact cheese @GAT was referencing at any of them. In any case, I may try to come back during the week when hopefully it will be less crowded. Walked around the rest of the island, which was interested - I did think it may be a more enjoyable experience if they didn’t have cars there, though.

After that, I went back to the hotel and made my way back to the BC Lions game. That was fun, though the game was a blowout (back won 46-14), and the entrance to watch on-field warmups for my club seats was difficult to find (meaning I lost a good chunk of time there). I also got some small cuts on my foot trying to enter my seat from the top. So it could have been better, but still managed to get in a game there.

On Sunday, I spent most of the early day doing laundry, and disposing of my Canadian change in the process since ideally I don’t want to have any left over. I had wanted to go dip my feet in the water, though the cuts made me hold off on that. Nevertheless, in the afternoon I still went for a walk towards Stanley Park along the shoreline - saw English Bay Beach, which looked a bit bigger than Sunset Park Beach, as well as Second Beach, following the Seawall. Saw the large pool next to the beach, as well as the concession stand (which despite Google saying closed at 6, actually seemed to stay open until at least 7). Might want to come back and check out the beach/pool a bit more - also may want to look at bike rentals to see the entire Seawall (seems like a similar length to the loop around Mackinac Island which I’ve done before). Ended up walking all the way back towards my hotel, with a stop at a grocery store and pharmacy. 

One thing I still have yet to do is take transit - while the SkyTrain system looks good, I haven’t had to go anywhere where it is the best option to get there. As for the buses, for most of my trips (like up to Stanley Park) I’d have to walk at least half of the distance to/from the bus stops anyway. Guessing they’re more useful for people coming from outside downtown. Also may explain why they’re so big on bikes here, with all the protected bike lanes and bike paths. I do want to make a point of at least riding the SkyTrain - something I have tentatively penciled in for Wednesday when there’s a good chance of rain. Want to try and get the West Coast Express as well out of the old CP station along the Fraser River, though would have to return downtown via another means since it only runs inbound in morning and outbound in the evening. Could get off at the last shared station with SkyTrain and take that back, though I kind of want to do the whole thing (in which case I’d take buses back - doing the last WCE to Mission and the 701 express to SkyTrain in the evening seems like the best way to do that).


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2022)

thully said:


> On Friday afternoon, I walked down to Sunset Park Beach, which was kind of nice - though I didn’t spent that much time as I wanted to get to the Whitecaps game. That was fun - Houston was leading 1-0 most of the way but Vancouver scored twice in the last few minutes (with the winner in stoppage time) to win it. It was a fairly easy walk to/from the stadium - just a straight shot down Davie to Pacific Blvd and the reverse.
> 
> On Saturday, I took the short Aquabus ferry ride to Granville Island, and got something to eat. The Public Market was interesting, albeit crowded. Saw a few cheese places, but didn’t see the exact cheese @GAT was referencing at any of them. In any case, I may try to come back during the week when hopefully it will be less crowded. Walked around the rest of the island, which was interested - I did think it may be a more enjoyable experience if they didn’t have cars there, though.
> 
> ...


We used to love visiting the Granville Farmers Market during the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Season.

Sounds like your plan to see what you can of Vancouver in such a short time is a good one.

This Beautiful City is like New York City,you can never see it all, and it's worth return visits!


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## Larry H. (Aug 8, 2022)

In 1971 I think it was we took the CNN across Canada from Toronto to Vancouver, but going from Chicago they still had a station for trains leaving to Toronto from Chicago. Then on the return from Vancouver they also had a rail connection where we met up with the Empire Builder just outside of Seattle. I don't know why they removed the through train from Chicago or if its gone the one to Seattle from Vancouver. It was at the time that the Empire Builder had notices in the cars that in 30 days all passenger service would be turned over to the Government. And thus Amtrak. Oddly for some time Amtrak ran trains pretty much like the old owners, nice lounges, good dining, domes and fan tail cars. Little by little it became a sort of shell of its former existence. I recall those mountains and the U turns over bridges where the engine was on the other side of the river going past the rear where we were. We were in the last car of 22 cars. It was a reasonably full train and lots of young people on board, many in the first class sections and lounges. The food however was so so at best and one of the reasons we decided to return to Chicago on the Empire Builder. That was a good choice still, the diner service was great as was the food. How long that lasted after the Amtrak ran it I don't know. It was running 5 sleepers of which maybe 10 people were in the whole bunch of them.. The weird part was when we decided to go from Vancouver the ticket agent tried three times to get us a bedroom, and each time they said it was sold out.. Finally he told us to go to the connections stop outside of Seattle and tell the conductor you wanted a room, and sure enough he had a train full of empty bedrooms which the railroad was saying were sold out!


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 8, 2022)

Larry H. said:


> In 1971 I think it was we took the CNN across Canada from Toronto to Vancouver, but going from Chicago they still had a station for trains leaving to Toronto from Chicago. Then on the return from Vancouver they also had a rail connection where we met up with the Empire Builder just outside of Seattle. I don't know why they removed the through train from Chicago or if its gone the one to Seattle from Vancouver. It was at the time that the Empire Builder had notices in the cars that in 30 days all passenger service would be turned over to the Government. And thus Amtrak. Oddly for some time Amtrak ran trains pretty much like the old owners, nice lounges, good dining, domes and fan tail cars. Little by little it became a sort of shell of its former existence. I recall those mountains and the U turns over bridges where the engine was on the other side of the river going past the rear where we were. We were in the last car of 22 cars. It was a reasonably full train and lots of young people on board, many in the first class sections and lounges. The food however was so so at best and one of the reasons we decided to return to Chicago on the Empire Builder. That was a good choice still, the diner service was great as was the food. How long that lasted after the Amtrak ran it I don't know. It was running 5 sleepers of which maybe 10 people were in the whole bunch of them.. The weird part was when we decided to go from Vancouver the ticket agent tried three times to get us a bedroom, and each time they said it was sold out.. Finally he told us to go to the connections stop outside of Seattle and tell the conductor you wanted a room, and sure enough he had a train full of empty bedrooms which the railroad was saying were sold out!


I believe I read somewhere that there were issues with the Port Huron, MI-Sarnia, ON tunnel which the Chicago-Toronto trains used. Hopefully someone else has more details on that.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2022)

Larry H. said:


> In 1971 I think it was we took the CNN across Canada from Toronto to Vancouver, but going from Chicago they still had a station for trains leaving to Toronto from Chicago. Then on the return from Vancouver they also had a rail connection where we met up with the Empire Builder just outside of Seattle. I don't know why they removed the through train from Chicago or if its gone the one to Seattle from Vancouver. It was at the time that the Empire Builder had notices in the cars that in 30 days all passenger service would be turned over to the Government. And thus Amtrak. Oddly for some time Amtrak ran trains pretty much like the old owners, nice lounges, good dining, domes and fan tail cars. Little by little it became a sort of shell of its former existence. I recall those mountains and the U turns over bridges where the engine was on the other side of the river going past the rear where we were. We were in the last car of 22 cars. It was a reasonably full train and lots of young people on board, many in the first class sections and lounges. The food however was so so at best and one of the reasons we decided to return to Chicago on the Empire Builder. That was a good choice still, the diner service was great as was the food. How long that lasted after the Amtrak ran it I don't know. It was running 5 sleepers of which maybe 10 people were in the whole bunch of them.. The weird part was when we decided to go from Vancouver the ticket agent tried three times to get us a bedroom, and each time they said it was sold out.. Finally he told us to go to the connections stop outside of Seattle and tell the conductor you wanted a room, and sure enough he had a train full of empty bedrooms which the railroad was saying were sold out!


The old SP Playbook ( and often Amtraks one thinks), tell them the Trains are "Sold Out" so they can show that nobody's riding when there are Lots of available Rooms, and hence Cut Cars,Staffing and even do a Train off!


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## thully (Aug 8, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I believe I read somewhere that there were issues with the Port Huron, MI-Sarnia, ON tunnel which the Chicago-Toronto trains used. Hopefully someone else has more details on that.


I think it was due to a combination of post-9/11 security procedures making the crossing way too slow and VIA/Amtrak wanting schedules that worked better for their domestic markets.


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## thully (Aug 10, 2022)

On Monday, I decided that I wanted to check out the beaches more as well as the large pool at Second Beach. Unfortunately, when I got online that morning, tickets for the pool on both Monday and Tuesday were sold out - Wednesday had availability, but the forecast had shown rain that day, and Thursday I leave for Seattle. However, they did save some tickets for walk-ups, so I figured I’d get lunch, head up towards Second Beach, and see if I could get in. Ended up walking along the seawall the whole way, stopping at Sunset Park Beach and getting lunch at the concession there before making my way to Second Beach.

Once I got to Second Beach, I saw a line had formed by the pool. After inquiring, I found that it was indeed the line for walk-ups to get in. Figured I’d wait - worst case I’d just check out Second Beach itself. Despite the large line, I was able to get in, and stored my belongings using the locker and swam there. It was definitely quite large and pretty nice for a public pool, but as far as pools go I don’t think anything can beat the hot springs at Glenwood Springs (hoping to maybe take the Zephyr back there next summer - would perhaps consider the Rocky Mountaineer, but they seem to only allow a single-night stopover there). Each admission gets a bit over 2 hours at the pool, with 3 sessions offered each day - I took the middle session ending about 5:15.

After that, I checked out Second Beach itself, which had a lot of algae - as did English Bay Beach. At that point I decided to just eat dinner. I went back to Sunset Park Beach and found that had less algae in it, though at that point I wanted to head back to the hotel. Stopped at the grocery store to get some things I had missed the previous night, and finally went back.


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## thully (Aug 10, 2022)

Today the main thing I wanted to do was to rent a bike and ride it around the Stanley Park seawall loop. Also, if I had time, I wanted to ride the West Coast Express since that only goes outbound from Vancouver in the evening and I was planning on an early night (or perhaps an early departure for Victoria) on Wednesday.

After getting going a bit later than I hoped and grabbing a quick lunch to eat at my hotel, I decided to head towards a bike rental place close to the Stanley Park seawall loop. I found that Spokes Bicycle Rentals seemed like a good option, and it also seemed easy to get to by bus. I decided to go that way - as it seemed that buses would take credit card payment by tapping, I wouldn’t even have to fuss with change. Was able to do so, which kind of amazed me as a concept (fare payment usually involves exact change or complicated payment schemes), and took the bus close to the rental shop without issue. Went and rented a bike, and set off on the path, which was only a couple blocks away.

Riding a bike around the Seawall loop did not disappoint - I got to see coastal scenery I hadn’t previously, go by the Lions Gate Bridge, and went by Third Beach, which I hadn’t made it to by walking. It looked like it might be better than the other ones, though I didn’t end up stopping as I wasn’t prepared for getting in the water (and wanted to hopefully get back and catch the West Coast Express). Before I knew it, I was passing the familiar grounds of Second Beach, and made it to the part where I would leave the seawall path to head back toward the rental place. Made that loop in a little over an hour, and returned the bike.

Once I had finished returning the bike, it was slightly after 5pm. Quite a bit earlier than I had anticipated - was thinking I may miss the WCE, but in fact I could still make the second-to-last one (instead of the last) if I quickly caught a bus to Waterfront Station. Got on there, and this time the card reader did not like my credit card. After trying a few times and beginning to dig up change, the driver just let me go since I was going to be paying a fare at the train station. Made it there and bought a ticket (with help from some person there, as I was a bit lost trying to find a single ticket as opposed to a monthly pass), and got on the train (which was very similar to what I had seen on the Coaster back in San Diego) with a few minutes to spare, finding a window on the waterfront side.

Once on the train we moved through a large freight rail yard, and eventually saw the waterfront come into view. To my surprise, there were quite a few people on the train - I figured a peak-hours-only commuter service would be underused given the shift to remote work post-pandemic, but it was much more full than I thought. I had purchased a ticket all the way to Mission, but still pondered getting off at Coquitlam so I’d have a straightforward SkyTrain trip back rather than an exurban bus adventure. When we got there I wanted to continue the journey, so exurban bus adventure it was. At that point we approached the Fraser River, and now the interesting scenery was on the opposite side of the train. Since many people had gotten off at that point, I quickly found an open table seat with a power outlet, which was handy to charge my phone for the impending exurban bus adventure. The train continued along the Fraser River until we hit Mission City.

When I had originally contemplated this trip, I was planning to take the last WCE and find something to eat/drink in Mission from 7:35 until the 9:01 route 701 express to SkyTrain. However, that would get me back after 11pm, and as there were no earlier 701s I could catch I opted for a different route suggested by Google Maps. A few minutes after our train arrived there was a BC Transit local route 31 to Abbotsford, which at least one other train passenger ended up taking as well. It strikes me that the WCE should probably run to Abbotsford (having a few times the population of Mission), but since it doesn’t they have this bus transfer set up nicely. Saw a few signs for a VIA Rail station on the route - the Canadian has two stops in this area, one at Mission North going eastbound and one at Abbotsford going westbound. While I get the reason why (using CN in one direction and CP the other), it still seems odd - what do you do if you want to go on a trip and park your car at the station? You’d have to call a cab - Uber didn’t seem to be in this area at all when I checked, and in fact suggested the very transit route I got on.

Eventually took this bus to a transfer station called Borquin Exchange, and used the transfer I got after paying the cash fare on the first bus to board route 1 to Highstreet Mall. This took us to a mall (no surprise), where I was to catch the BC Transit Fraser Valley Express (Route 66) to the Lougheed Town Centre SkyTrain station. The 7:55 bus I was connecting to was the last of the day (after which the only transit option to go back was to go all the way back to Mission City and catch the 701), though we got there with plenty of time to spare. When the 66 showed up, to my surprise it was just a normal city bus and not the large coach bus express routes like this typically use. Used my last Canadian bill (a 5) to pay the fare, and got on the highway for the trip to Lougheed, using the HOV lane. There was one intermediate stop at some kind of transit hub before we reached the SkyTrain.

At the SkyTrain, I began to buy a fare using the Compass machine, but someone left me an unexpired fare they no longer needed that I ended up using, so I was off the hook on fare for the second time today. Looked for the next Expo Line train to Waterfront - to my surprise none of the trains I saw had the line/destination on a display, though the overhead display showed the current train and next ones. Got on the train, and had my first experience with SkyTrain, which was kind of neat (if a bit more bumpy and loud than I’m used to). Google Maps suggested getting off before Waterfront and getting a bus, but I opted to stay on to try the Canada Line transfer. Transferred to the Canada Line, which had newer trains than the Expo Line, and went just a couple stations to Yaletown-Roundhouse which was the nearest station to my hotel. Exited the station with my still-valid fare - for kicks I decided to take out my old San Diego Compass Card to see if Vancouver’s Compass Card system would take It (it recognized It as a card, but didn’t take it).

Walked back to the hotel, finally making it back after that journey. Were I to do it again, I may have got off at Coquitlam, returned by SkyTrain from there, and gotten back sooner. At the same time, I would have missed out on the bus adventure, which reminded me of taking various suburban/exurban routes around Southern California back then. The BC Transit part in particular reminds me of taking Omnitrans in the Inland Empire or perhaps NCTD bus routes around Escondido (outside San Diego), and I’ve taken plenty of express buses in HOV lanes out there). Funny enough, I had taken Omnitrans when going to see an Ontario Reign (minor league affiliate of the LA Kings) hockey game. Guess where the Vancouver Canucks minor league affiliate now plays - Abbotsford! Though that’s far from the only California similarity I’ve noticed here (the weather this time of year, San Francisco-like steep hills, and the housing prices being just a few…) In any case, I figure it’s almost time to go to bed - the forecast calls for rain, so I’m not planning much. May ride SkyTrain more, finish my Canadian charge off on a load of laundry, and figure I’ll either go to bed early to take an early ferry to Victoria or leave here tomorrow and spend a night there.


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## GAT (Aug 10, 2022)

What great reports you're writing! I love hearing your impressions of an area I know so well. And I admire your ability to get so much done in such a short (to me) time. Looking forward to your Victoria experience!


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## thully (Aug 11, 2022)

Yesterday, I was pretty much worn out after the long day of bike and transit riding yesterday. While I considered bolting for Victoria early, I felt too tired to do much of anything, including leaving. I was sore even walking a few blocks to pick up lunch. Since I had taken SkyTrain yesterday, I didn’t feel the need to go out of my way and ride it again, particularly without any particular destination in mind. I did do one last load of laundry, disposing of my remaining Canadian change in the process except for one quarter and a few nickels/dimes.

Aside from laundry, watching TV, eating, and using the pool/hot tub at the hotel, the main thing I did is consider how I was going to get to Victoria the next day. The BC Ferries Connector seemed the most convenient option, but didn’t run as early as I’d like - I had called the Seattle ferry operator and they said they opened for luggage at 9am, and the first Connector wouldn’t arrive until 1:20pm. The seaplane was tempting, but I was a bit wary of the luggage requirements - it seems like mine would fit, but it could go slightly over (in which case luggage goes on a space-available basis) and they they don’t give the exact plane you’re taking if not a Twin Otter (which dictated the allowed dimensions). That leaves the standard ferry from Tsawwassen plus either Uber/Lyft/cab or transit - though BC Transit on the Vancouver Island end only takes cash, which I had just gotten rid of. Dealing with getting small change right before leaving the country+luggage on transit seemed annoying, so I figured I’d just go the Uber/Lyft/cab route. Ended up going to bed early so I could get going early to make it to the island with plenty of time to spare.


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## thully (Aug 11, 2022)

Slept until about 4am - couldn’t go back to sleep, so got up at 4:30am. Got all packed up and grabbed a quick breakfast at Tim Hortons - which I was thankful is open 24 hours. Finished everything and was planning to Uber to the ferry terminal to get the 7am ferry. However, after requesting and seeing the estimated wait time increase, I feared that I’d have a good chance of missing the 7am and being stuck waiting until 8. Given that, I opted to take transit as it was much cheaper, would give me the chance to ride more transit (including most of the Canada Line) and would still get me there with plenty of time to make the 8am ferry (which was the original one I was aiming to make).

Walked to the Yaletown-Roundhouse Canada Line station, and this time located the elevator to spare me taking luggage down stairs. Found it, and then got to the fare gates. Tried the credit card that gave me trouble there on Tuesday and it didn’t work - luckily, my other one did. Kind of mad about that - the card that didn’t work has no foreign transaction fees. It has worked most places in Canada, but has stubbornly refused to work at a few places (VIA Rail Canada’s website, Ticketmaster, and TransLink buses/trains). Heard a train coming and didn’t see the elevator so went down the stairs to the platform. Turns out the train was the opposite direction, but ours came shortly. Most of the ride was underground, which surprised me given the “SkyTrain” name, but then again the Chicago L has subway segments. Rode that to Bridgeport where I took the elevators to street level. Was going to buy a Compass Card as a souvenir but it insisted on me adding a pass or value, which I wouldn’t be needing. Saw the exit was labeled “Way out” - something I’m more accustomed seeing on signs from the UK.

At the station, I followed the directions for the 620 Tsawwassen Ferry Express. Tapped on with the working credit card without issue, and found a seat. Had heard that this had luggage racks, but I didn’t see any - it seemed to be a regular articulated bus. Found a single seat and held on to my bag for the duration of the trip. Per the name, it was an express bus with few stops - I noticed a few of them had “Exchange” at the end of the name as on my ride back from Mission/Abbotsford. That seemed a bit strange, but I figure it must be the Canadian name for what we would call a “transit center” in the US. I also saw a highway sign that said “No Sunglasses” - weird. We soon got to the BC Ferries Tsawwassen terminal (boy is that hard to spell).

At the terminal, I found the ferry ticket kiosk and bought a ticket on the 8am ferry to Swartz Bay. Then I asked about checked luggage and was directed to an unmanned area to drop and tag. I weighed my bag only to find it was about a pound over the limit. Frustrated, I transferred items to my backpack until I got it under the 23kg/50lb limit. Given that, I definitely would have had trouble with the seaplane - their limit was 50lb including backpacks, so my luggage would only go on a standby/space-available basis. Got someone to help me with the tagging (it wasn’t obvious how to attach the tag I grabbed), and made my way to the ferry berth. Lots of people were lined up for the Victoria/Swartz Bay ferry. I saw the ferry outside and was wowed by the size - full size trucks were getting off it. I heard an announcement about the sailing being delayed 40min and briefly worried, but immediately after that they announced our ferry was now boarding, so that wasn’t for us.

Got on the ferry, and it did not disappoint. I had been on ferries before, but I’m not sure I’ve been on one this large - perhaps the SS Badger in Ludington, MI (which I took a harbor cruise on last summer, wanting to ride but not really wanting to go to Manitowoc, WI) was close, but this may be bigger. The ferry to Seattle will definitely be smaller - it only handles passengers (no cars). Multiple levels, stores, cafes, an ATM (which I could use to get cash for that BC Transit bus, though I’d probably have to break a 20 somewhere). Looked for a seat, and was a bit disappointed to find no power outlets by most seats - the only ones I saw were desk seats without a view. I probably should get a new phone with a better battery, but given the iPhone release cycle I want to hold out a couple more months. We soon set sail, and I noticed we were going backwards. Wanting to face in the direction of travel, I found another seat and settled in for the journey. Was initially a bit cold (and wishing I had grabbed my jacket out of my suitcase) but the sunshine soon warmed me up.


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## GAT (Aug 11, 2022)

The "No sunglasses" sign appears before you enter the Massey Tunnel under the Fraser River. It is meant for drivers, so that they can see better as they adjust more quickly to the relative darkness.

Anker has a great pocket charger for less than $20, which obviates the need to find an outlet. It's cylindrical, about the size of a short, fat cigar. It's called the "Powercore 5000" or something like that. It was indispensable for me on my recent three week circle Amtrak voyage.


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## thully (Aug 11, 2022)

The ferry ride was uneventful, and pretty fun, particularly as we weaved between islands on our way to Swartz Bay. Arrived on time, and grabbed my bag, which was one of only a few checked bags I saw. Went outside the terminal to see a line of taxis in the left lane as well as a big line of people by a couple double-decker buses. I didn’t see a sign pointing where to wait for taxis and figured it wouldn’t be across a traffic lane, so I walked past the buses. At first I thought they were some kind of private coach/tour service I hadn’t heard of, but they were in fact the BC Transit 70 and 72. I had thought of taking those, but I didn’t have any Canadian cash and wanted to maximize my time in Victoria.

Not seeing any other taxi line, I walked back to the taxis I saw in the left lane and was able to get one to the Victoria Clipper terminal from there. The taxi ride was uneventful - they driver suggested I go to Butchart Gardens, and I told him I had heard of it but wasn’t going to go since it was far from downtown Victoria. He was insistent I had enough time, which was probably true though I probably couldn’t do much else (and I’d have to take a cab both ways after dropping my bag off, something he was probably hoping to provide). There is no Uber/Lyft in Victoria, which I found annoying (though granted, Vancouver was perhaps the last major North American city to get them in 2020). Business practices aside, it’s much more convenient to use an app where you can track your ride rather than calling a cab like it’s 2001. It’s doubly annoying that BC Transit is cash only on top of it - that is supposed to change in the Fall with a new app, but that’s as useful to me now as the Cascades resuming in September is. For a city that attracts tourists, they don’t make it easy to get around.

In the end, I just took the cab to the terminal, dropped my bags off, and just started walking around after that. The route to Victoria was rather nondescript, though I did see a “ThinKMetric” sign informing drivers of the use of metric measurements. Have seen pictures of this sign before, though I was surprised to see it in that place (I’d expect it in the other direction, as US car ferries arrive in Victoria). On the topic of measurements, I saw on the map there was a Mile 0 marker for the Trans-Canada Highway and wanted to see that - it was on the way to the oceanfront which I also wanted to see, so I started walking. As I walked, I went by the BC Parliament building, which I made a note of for later. Once I got to the Mile 0 marker, I got a picture of that - it does seem like they should have converted it to KM 0 when Canada went metric, but I guess they probably leave it as-is for historical reasons. After that I walked towards the water and came upon the Dallas Rd coastal trail, which offered some great views.

Followed it until Clover Point, which was quite a sight itself - it looked like there was a cement walking path by the shore that went further, but I figured I should start heading back as I wanted to check out tea at the Empress and the BC parliament building. On my way back, I decided to walk through Beacon Hill Park to check out the world’s tallest totem pole, which sounds like one of those Mystery Spot type attractions but was actually honoring native World War veterans. Walked through the park towards the main road, and it looked like an interesting park - saw a bunch of tourists on rental bikes and a lot of paths. Got to the main road around Michigan Street, which I appreciated being from Michigan while disliking the abbreviation of Michigan St. (which as a University of Michigan alum makes me think of Michigan State).

Eventually got to the Empress amidst a crowd of tour buses and asked about tea - was told I could get in, but it would be 1:45 (about 35 minutes from then). Decided to wait and gave my mobile number, though my phone was nearly out of battery and stuck on a weak U.S. signal (something that seems to happen near the border, especially when directly across water from the U.S). I eventually got my phone back on a Canadian signal and charged in the hotel while waiting. Tea was an interesting experience - while I don’t usually drink tea (I generally prefer coffee), I do drink it from time to time, most often when I’m getting a medical test that requires a clear liquid diet beforehand (I far prefer straight tea to black coffee). I got what seemed to be their most common option - a tea that the Queen always drank when visiting the hotel. I liked the tea, and ended up finishing the pot. Tea also included some food, which for me would be my lunch. Except for the scone with jam, most of the food was not my cup of tea (excuse the pun), though I ate most of it (save for the desserts at the end that were so overwhelming in taste I couldn’t enjoy the tea). I ended up getting another tea (the rose), though this one I didn’t enjoy much (and the timing set me back as far as having time to see BC parliament. As it got to be after 3, I found my waiter to pay and head for the parliament building.

When I got to the parliament building, it was after 3, so I had missed the guided tour then. The next one was at 3:30 and in French, and the next English one was at 4, which was too late for me given boarding for the Clipper started at 4. However, you could go into the building for a self-guided tour, which I opted to do. As I waited and got to be almost next in line, they decided to have all the people there for the French tour move in front, as it was about to start (and the only French tour of the day). I get why they do that, but given my time constraints that wasn’t great news. I kept waiting and was finally let in a few minutes before I was going to leave. In any case, I was still able to see the things that were seen by the guided tour, just at twice the speed. The building was quite interesting, and it was neat to see where legislators sat - I had thought about doing the California State Capitol tour while on a layover in Sacramento, which I imagine is somewhat similar. I saw some signs for the Parliamentary Dining Room (and had seen a menu out front) and wanted to see that, but it seemed to be closed off to the public. Maybe if I find myself in Victoria again I’ll seek it out (as well as Butchart Gardens, and other things as well).


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## thully (Aug 12, 2022)

After that, I made my way back to the Clipper terminal, where a line had already formed for US immigration. I first had to grab my stored bag, though (my other bag had been checked). Got in the immigration line, and was handed my boarding pass after a slight delay to print it out (I suspect it wasn’t among the already printed due to me booking through Amtrak). Got that, and then waited in the immigration line. It moved quickly, and I got through after talking to the customs officer. They didn’t ask much beyond what I was doing in Victoria (I did mention I was returning from a long train trip in Canada, though that wasn’t an issue) and if I had anything to declare. Was a bit surprised by the second question since I was under the impression that the customs part of customs and immigration was done in Seattle, but perhaps it’s just redundant checks.

After passing through immigration, got on the boat, with 45 minutes to spare for the 5pm departure. I could have come a lot later and made my boat, but with customs/immigration involved I wasn’t going to take it for granted. Found my seat, and was a bit disappointed to find no outlets with my phone almost dead again. Amtrak seems to do fairly well with this, but as it’s become evident on this trip other carriers don’t. My phone seems to eat through battery particularly bad when near borders, as it keeps shuffling between towers and likes to try and connect to distant US signals. I did find out there was a USB hub near the cafe that I could plug in to charge - which did work, though I couldn’t really use it (the signal was flaky anyway, though).

When I booked this ferry with Amtrak (could you call it an Amboat?), I was given an economy seat, though there are other classes. Asked about those, and decided against upgrading since the outlet situation wasn’t any better and none of the upper window seats were open and I had a middle economy row of 3 seats to myself right by the front window. Left it there and settled in for the 2hr 45min ferry trip to Seattle. A little more than an hour in I went to the cafe and was going to buy something to eat, but they were sold out of nearly everything. Ultimately I decided to just finish my cheese popcorn, though I did buy a drink. Our ride got bumpier as we approached Seattle.

As we approached, they made an announcement that there would be two calls to disembark - first passengers without checked luggage and the passengers with checked luggage. Having luggage, I was afraid that meant I’d be waiting a long time - I had seen a post referencing an hour-long wait for customs. Fortunately, it didn’t take that long. Before I knew it, passengers with luggage were called through customs. Grabbed my bag, and the customs agent wanted to see my passport card and asked if there was anything I wanted to declare - basically the exact same as the pre-boarding check, but carrying my luggage. Why they don’t just do it at one place is beyond me.

Got outside the terminal, and saw a swarm of taxis. Almost every driver was asking the same question - “Are you going to the airport”? Not wanting to give these drivers cherry-picking fares the light of day (or have them begrudgingly take me the 1.5 miles to my hotel), I requested an Uber and quickly got a ride. Though I’m not sure if many people disembarking from this ferry would be going to the airport - with the fairly late arrival, only a small number of flights (mostly red-eye) would even be an option. Though I’d likely take an Uber with luggage anyway, I had looked at transit and was surprised to find few good options despite the trip being basically straight down Alaskan Way - everything involved at least half walking.

Took the Uber to the Embassy Suites Pioneer Square, which is conveniently located right next to King Street Station. Was able to secure a late 1pm checkout, as well as get a late bite to eat at the Zephyr restaurant (perhaps it would be better named Builder, but love the train-themed naming). Also had plenty of time to check out the pool/hot tub before going to bed. Definitely a convenient location for taking the Empire Builder (or any train out of Seattle, really).

All in all, a good day. Definitely a good substitute for the Cascades train - the Cantrail bus would get me there earlier (and is an appropriate name given the situation with the Cascades), but the ferries and Victoria excursion were more interesting. Side point - if one were to do this trip in reverse (Empire Builder to Seattle, then the Victoria+Vancouver ferries, then the Canadian), you’d avoid any chance of random COVID testing as ferries are exempt. That actually had me thinking of going the other direction, though train availability wasn’t as good that way - and I definitely get better scenery going the way I did. Looking forward to another day of fitting in as much tourism and transit as I can tomorrow and the Empire Builder - currently #7 is on time in Montana, so crossing my fingers everything’s fine tomorrow…


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 12, 2022)

Enjoying your trip so much! You have been smart to mix in some rest days with so many busy ones.

It sounds like Victoria probably needs two hotel nights with a full day in between if someone wants to see the Gardens and also go to the Empress for tea?

I’m impressed at how disciplined you were with the tea (You do realize the whole fancy tea routine is just an excuse for those of us with a sweet tooth to get to the scones with jam and all the rich desserts?)


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## GAT (Aug 12, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Enjoying your trip so much! You have been smart to mix in some rest days with so many busy ones.
> 
> It sounds like Victoria probably needs two hotel nights with a full day in between if someone wants to see the Gardens and also go to the Empress for tea?
> 
> I’m impressed at how disciplined you were with the tea (You do realize the whole fancy tea routine is just an excuse for those of us with a sweet tooth to get to the scones with jam and all the rich desserts?)


I', sad the Bengal Room is no more. There, you could have enjoyed a Pimm's Cup and curry.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 12, 2022)

The routine with Customs is not dissimilar to what they did southbound on the Cascades, with a Preclearance-lite US Immigration inspection in Pacific Central Station and US Customs inspection on US soil at Blaine.

Until very recently, the full Preclearance protocols which allowed extra-territorial enforcement action for US Customs violations on Canadian soil only applied to air travel. So Preclearance-lite was just Immigration inspection where no enforcement action was necessary, they just turned you back if there was a problem.

Full Preclearance authority for land (and I suppose sea, but I only know land for sure) was finally negotiated and agreed to in 2019, so they could do full Customs as well Immigration inspections under the law now. However, COVID put a stop to things. It sounds like they haven't yet implemented it for the Victoria Clipper. I know one of the issues for implementing full Preclearance at Pacific Central Station was the size of the facility. When Cascades service to Canada resumes, theoretically in September, I don't know if they'll switch over to full Preclearance with both Immigration and Customs at Pacific Central Station. I doubt it, though, since no work appears to have been done to the Port of Entry facilities at Pacific Central Station when I was there in March and April.

The Black Ball ferry does the same thing, btw. US Immigration inspection before boarding at Victoria, US Customs inspection at Port Angeles.


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## thully (Aug 12, 2022)

Slept fairly well yesterday and woke up around 7:50, though I had wanted to get up earlier. That still gave me time to grab breakfast at the hotel, though once I got ready It was 8:30, and it was quite busy given that it ended at 9 (even more so than the hotel in Vancouver). Was able to get food and eventually find a place to sit down, though the latter was a bit challenging, After breakfast, I had a somewhat leisurely morning after the busy day yesterday, taking some coffee back to my room and then goingto the pool/hot tub. It was pretty nice, and there was a sun deck there as well as windows with a view of the Seattle Seahawks stadium. This would be a good place to stay if going to a game (as well as taking a train). 

After a while, I decided I wanted to get going and pack up. Did so (moving items back to my big bag in the process), and stored the bags in the hotel’s baggage room. Then I headed to the Link Light Rail to head towards Pike Place Market. It was fairly convenient and easy to access via the pedestrian bridge, though I do think having light rail and intercity rail right next to each other (as in San Diego) is preferable. Was initially a bit surprised by the lack of faregates given that the station is underground, but then remembered that Seattle’s system is proof-of-payment. Went to the ticket machine, and it was all out of Orca cards and seemingly had no options for a day pass (Which I wanted to ride the system). Ended up buying a one-way ticket to Westlake, and quickly boarded the train there.

Got off the train heading to Pike Place Market - was initially confused by the Exit ABCD signs with no language explaining what each was, but eventually found a sign showing the right one to Pike Place Market. Exited and found myself at the intersection of 3rd and Pine, which from my reading about Seattle is notoriously described as sketchy. Didn’t see anything bad there, though did notice the police presence. Walked to Pike Place Market, and found it quite crowded. Was also struck by the presence of cars, which made it worse - given the masses of people there, allowing car traffic through there seems utterly stupid. Eventually found a place to get some fish for lunch, and found one of the few seats to sit down and eat. After that went to the original Starbucks - saw the line and decided to head to the Space Needle instead.

To get to the Space Needle, I walked back to Wesflake Center to the Seattle Monorail. After purchasing a round-trip ticket, I went through the gates and waited. The wait was longer than I expected - I had expected trains to be running every couple minutes or something, but it felt more like light rail frequency. Got on the train, and eventually started moving. Got to Seattle Center, and found the Space Needle. Then I went to buy tickets, and was surprised to find that the next available entry time was 3:30pm (about 2 hours from then). I had done the CN Tower and Sears Tower before and just gone up, so this caught me by surprised. For some reason I thought that would be just enough time, bought a ticket,and took the monorail back - immediately having second thoughts that were confirmed by brief research. Figuring I was out the $40, I decided to take a short ride on the South Lake Union Streetcar (or as it is affectionately called, the South Lake Union Trolley or S.L.U.T.) to a Whole Foods to check if they had a drink not distributed in Michigan that I liked. They did have some of their stuff, but not the one I wanted. After that, I figured it was worth just walking back to the Space Needle to see if there was any way I could either get in with enough time to make the train or get a refund. They told me it would be 4:30 before I’d even get up with a 3:30 reservation, but did give me a refund.

After that, I took the monorail back to Westlake and looked into what I would have time to do. Bainbridge ferry was out, as the next one wasn’t until 3 and even taking it immediately back would be uncomfortably close to my train departure. Decided to check out the original Starbucks again - the line was still long, but was less bad. Waited and eventually got in and through by 3:30. After that, I returned to the Link light rail station to go back to my hotel, grab my bags, and head to the train station. I had thought about riding Link Light Rail more, but not seeing an easy way to just purchase a whole-route day pass (the machine at Westlake also had no Orca cards), I just bought a ticket to International District-Chinatown. Got off there, crossed the bridge, got my bags from the hotel, and made my way to King Street Station.


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## thully (Aug 12, 2022)

At King Street Station, I was surprised to find no signage for Empire Builder boarding - a far cry from the large crowd in the Toronto business lounge for the Canadian. Ended up just waiting in the general waiting area until they made a boarding call, with sleeping car passengers first. Had my ticket scanned, got onboard, and struggled to find a spot for my bag - if it ends up buried I’m going to wish I’d packed essentials in the duffel as for the Canadian. Found my roomette, and waited for departure. Was then offered a reservation for the dining car at either 6 or 6:30 - took the latter, as I wanted enough time to see the Puget Sound . Fortunately no 9pm dinner like the Canadian gave me a couple times… 

Started rolling out of King Street Station, and then noticed one disappointing thing - my roomette was on the right, and the Puget Sound was on the left. Of course, usually I’d make a beeline for the Sightseer Lounge in this case, but 28 has that, so I ended up opening my door and looking through the window of the empty roomette directly across. I actually had that room, but my room changed when I changed my reservation to get the lower price - it’s booked now, but at least its empty out of SEA. Not having the Sightseer Lounge also meant we had no cafe car - something I was reminded of with the announcement that coach passengers could purchase some grab and go items in the diner. Not sure which train gets the better end of the bargain - we get the better food, but 28 gets the sightseer lounge and cafe car (and from what I’ve heard the Columbia River scenery is probably better than the Puget Sound, or at least longer). However, I didn’t want to have to go all the way to Portland (and I had seen Portland unlike Seattle), so 8 is the train I’m on. In any case, everyone has access to both after we join 28 in Spokane.


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## GAT (Aug 12, 2022)

thully said:


> Slept fairly well yesterday and woke up around 7:50, though I had wanted to get up earlier. That still gave me time to grab breakfast at the hotel, though once I got ready It was 8:30, and it was quite busy given that it ended at 9 (even more so than the hotel in Vancouver). Was able to get food and eventually find a place to sit down, though the latter was a bit challenging, After breakfast, I had a somewhat leisurely morning after the busy day yesterday, taking some coffee back to my room and then goingto the pool/hot tub. It was pretty nice, and there was a sun deck there as well as windows with a view of the Seattle Seahawks stadium. This would be a good place to stay if going to a game (as well as taking a train).
> 
> After a while, I decided I wanted to get going and pack up. Did so (moving items back to my big bag in the process), and stored the bags in the hotel’s baggage room. Then I headed to the Link Light Rail to head towards Pike Place Market. It was fairly convenient and easy to access via the pedestrian bridge, though I do think having light rail and intercity rail right next to each other (as in San Diego) is preferable. Was initially a bit surprised by the lack of faregates given that the station is underground, but then remembered that Seattle’s system is proof-of-payment. Went to the ticket machine, and it was all out of Orca cards and seemingly had no options for a day pass (Which I wanted to ride the system). Ended up buying a one-way ticket to Westlake, and quickly boarded the train there.
> 
> ...


Just a little trivia. The monorail was built to showcase part of the 1962 Seattle World Fair (Century 21) and the Vancouver Sky Train was built to showcase the 1986 Vancouver World Fair (Expo 86). You rode both on the same trip, as well as both Canadian and USA cross-country trains. Nice accomplishment!


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## zephyr17 (Aug 12, 2022)

Living in Everett, I obviously usually ride the Seattle section of the Builder, though I have ridden both. Personally, I'd rather have the Sightseer than the diner, but am stuck with the diner.

I also agree the Gorge is more scenic. Much of Stevens Pass is a tree tunnel.


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## thully (Aug 13, 2022)

Looked out the adjacent roomette’s window for the Puget Sound view until we got to Everett, at which point we turned away from the sound and that roomette became occupied. Stayed in my roomette until the 6:30 dinner time, at which point I made my way to the dining car. The first thing I noticed is the relative lack of crowding - I chalked that up to half our train being in Portland, as well as perhaps coach passengers not being allowed in. Sat with someone going to Minneapolis as well as two people going to Washington, DC - they were planning the incredibly tight connection to the Capitol Limited, but just planned to fly to DC if they missed it. While in the diner we went through some long tunnels, which reminded me of the Moffat Tunnel - however, I noticed there wasn’t an instruction to stay in your car like the Moffat. Someone said the reason for the difference had to do with the fumes/ventilation…

I had the shrimp appetizer and steak - was surprised to see the salad and roll are on Amtrak’s menu no more (my last Amtrak LD trip being in 2019). Skipped the dessert since the only option that sounded good had nuts (to which I am allergic, though not to the point where mere traces make me ill), though was pleasantly surprised we got one free alcoholic beverage (don’t recall that was the case until recently, particularly on western trains). Ended up getting one and a Coke, and coming back a little later to buy another drink from the “mini-cafe” that the dining car served as for this portion of the trip. I did ask what time breakfast would start, to which the answer was 6:30am Mountain Time. 

Once I got back to my roomette, my SCA asked if I wanted to turn down the bed, which I had her do shortly after. Went downstairs, and found my bag was now wedged way in the back of the luggage rack instead of the front. I was right to have thought I should have put essentials in the duffel - after wrestling with half the contents of the luggage rack, I got my bag out and did that after the fact. Went to the bathroom and brushed my teeth/got ready for bed, and went upstairs to my now made-up roomette.


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## thully (Aug 13, 2022)

Slept OK last night but not great - there was a lot of noise in Spokane when our train combined. Woke up at 4:15 and had trouble sleeping - went to the bathroom, came back, and went to bed only for my 6am alarm to go off way sooner than anticipated. I’m guessing the time change happened in that interval. Got up early so I could get breakfast and quickly find a spot in the lounge car before Glacier National Park, though it looked like we had fallen behind by over an hour overnight.

Went down to the shower only to find out I was missing something else in my day bag, so I had to get out my big suitcase again (though it was a bit easier this time). Went and took my shower, though it seems they had no shampoo. After that it was 6:40 so breakfast was now being served. Went down there to see I was one of (if not the) first person there. I was a bit surprised after having been put on a waiting list for breakfast around this time on the Canadian - while this is definitely a much smaller train by comparison, I had figured someone else would want to get a head start on it to see Glacier Park.

Had breakfast - ended up getting french toast, bacon, coffee, and orange juice. The French toast was smaller than I expected, so I ended up asking for some sausage as well as the fruit that would have been on my toast had I not asked for it plain (I like fruit, just not on things like that unless it’s a spread). Overheard someone mentioning that 28 was late due to waiting for connecting passengers from the Coast Starlight - perhaps that’s why we were delayed. Also nice to hear they hold the train - might want to do that connection in the future to see the Oregon Starlight scenery and the Portland-specific part of 28. Filled up and then went back to my sleeper to get things to take to the Sightseer Lounge with me for the journey through Glacier Park.


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## thully (Aug 13, 2022)

Glacier Park had some great scenery to offer, and I was glad that I had viewed it from the lounge car. While perhaps not as good as the Rockies scenery on the California Zephyr or the Canadian, it still was quite neat to see. Also, as seen frequently on the Zephyr, we did see one person moon the train. During this time, we also went by the stop at Essex and the Izaak Walton Inn. I had heard of rail fans staying here, though being out in the middle of nowhere with no connectivity and few transportation options aside from a car (or long hikes/bike rides) is not my cup of tea. The mountain scenery continued until East Glacier Park (alternatively announced as just Glacier Park), at which point everything got very flat. This looked quite simliar to what I saw in Saskatchewan on the Canadian, though given the vast blue sky I see where the term “Big Sky country” came from.

Once we exited Glacier Park, I took that as my cue to go eat lunch in the dining car. Had the hamburger, which was good if a bit basic. I did hear a radio every so often that seemed to say “no defects” - know this has to do with the train, but don’t know exactly what. The rest of the day was fairly monotonous - I ended up just staying in my sleeping car after things flattened out. I was kind of tired from getting up early - had I know we’d be late and breakfast wouldn’t be crowded I’d probably have slept a bit later. Ended up changing my Chicago hotel for tomorrow since I found a good deal on a better looking one. Took a 6pm diner reservation, as that seemed like a happy medium between the 5pm and 7:15pm that were the other options. Decided to go outside for a fresh air break at Havre, MT, and given the heat outside (98 degrees) I almost wished I hadn’t. The track seemed really bumpy today as well, perhaps more so than other Amtrak trains I had taken (though it has been a long time since I’ve bee on many of them). Stayed in my room until dinner, at which point I made my way to the dining car.

In the dining car, I ended up ordering the same meal as before, with a few changes - I decided to try the white chocolate blueberry cheesecake (which was actually good despite cheesecake not being my thing), and I started with wine instead of beer. I had seen that the menu did say dinner rolls were available on requires, but when I asked was told none were loaded on the train. Disappointing, but far from the horror stories of no food being loaded on the train. The email was good (though I did end up getting a beer as well), and as we ate I noticed we were quickly approaching North Dakota. Crossed the state line as I was in the diner, and made our first stop there in Williston, where our train made multiple stops (I thought they said 2, but it seemed like 3). I had heard Williston was an oil boom town in recent years, though not much more than that. After dinner I grabbed some water bottles and went to the lounge car. Even with North Dakota being fairly flat, watching the sun go down in the lounge car was something I had missed last night. Stayed there for a while, and then decided to go back to my room and get ready for bed (after writing this). As I went to bed, we approached Minot, ND, and I recalled when someone at the hostel in Chicago 10 or so years ago said that one of the main things to do in Minot is watch the Empire Builder arrive. I figure tonight I wont set an alarm and will try to have a more leisurely morning in hopes of getting better sleep - the scenery tomorrow may be interesting (as the Mississippi has been on other LD trains for me), though it’s not Glacier National Park.

All in all, a good day, though after riding the Canadian it does sometimes feel underwhelming given the smaller train and lesser scenery/amenities. I figure that’s not fair to Amtrak, as VIA is targeting the tourism market more than point A to B travelers at a generally higher cost. Though at the same point VIA OBS made the point that they served as transportation unlike the Rocky Mountaineer, so there is definitely a spectrum here (with Amtrak on one end, Rocky Mountaineer on the other, and the Canadian somewhere in between). I’ve also noticed the distinct lack of tour groups and lounge car narration (something I have seen before on Amtrak, though perhaps this is mostly on the Zephyr and/or suspended due to staffing constraints). When I had first discussed doing this trip here that was definitely brought up as a reason to do the Empire Builder first - though with the current schedule you get the best scenery in daylight going the way I did, so I guess there are tradeoffs either way.


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## joelkfla (Aug 14, 2022)

thully said:


> I did hear a radio every so often that seemed to say “no defects” - know this has to do with the train, but don’t know exactly what.


Defect detectors positioned along the track to check for overheated bearings, dragging equipment, etc.








Defect detector - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 14, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Defect detectors positioned along the track to check for overheated bearings, dragging equipment, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some "traintubers" on YouTube apparently travel with a radio tuned to the frequency used for train crew chatter, and the messages from the defect detectors are heard on those radios, too.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 14, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Some "traintubers" on YouTube apparently travel with a radio tuned to the frequency used for train crew chatter, and the messages from the defect detectors are heard on those radios, too.


Not just "traintubers". Many of us carry scanners on our travels with no intention of posting videos anywhere.

I am a total scanner junkie onboard.

Just remember the earphones/earbuds, folks. The static, squawks and tones emitted by the scanners can be pretty obnoxious.


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## thully (Aug 14, 2022)

Slept better last night, and ended up being woken by an announcement that the dining car was open for breakfast around 7:45am. Was glad I didn’t set an alarm - if I had, it would have gone off underneath my bed with no way to silence it without putting it up since my phone fell there down through the crack overnight, At that point we were in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area and closing in on St. Paul Union Depot, having made up the 2 hours we were behind overnight in North Dakota. Wanted to take a shower, but the sign said “in use” despite seemingly no noise at all coming from there. Did other things and came back shortly after to find the same situation. Thinking the door may be broken, I knocked to find out that there was indeed someone in there. Ended up going to breakfast - got the same thing as yesterday, though ordered It all up-front. Finished my breakfast while we were stopped at MSP, and went back down to the shower that was now open.

Finished showering just as we pulled out of the station, grabbed coffee, and then went to the lounge car to see the Mississippi. Saw a CP facility as well as a lot of CP freight cars - kind of the reverse of when I saw BNSF in Canada. All the seats on that side were full, so ended up going back to my sleeper. Eventually went back and got a seat and hung out there until we got to Wisconsin, when I had lunch. Talked to a couple from Colorado who had flown to Portland to take this to Milwaukee - found they were also familiar with the Zephyr and its mooners (and saw the mooner at Glacier Park yesterday), as well as the Rocky Mountaineer starting service in Colorado. I also mentioned riding the Surfliner and the upcoming trip to San Diego - the Southwest Chief was brought up, though I mentioned I was probably just going to fly due to the situation with withdrawn sleepers, high cost (SWC roomettes are running more than the EB was now, and that’s a train I’ve been on before), and worries about daily service being curtailed. As we arrived in Wisconsin Dells, I reminisced about a past family trip there.

After lunch, I headed to the bathroom only to find the “in use” label illegible and the door not opening. It turns out it was occupied - this was not the only time this had happened, though it wasn’t always occupied when the label was illegible. The door also was hard to unlock once I was done using it. Though a minor issue, the Superliners are definitely looking aged compared to when I first rode them 10 or so years ago. VIAs equipment was older, but seemed better maintained. In the lounge car, I also heard some coach passengers (at least some of which boarded at MSP, which probably gets few sleeper passengers on the train to CHI) surprised that they couldn’t eat in the dining car. We were still on track for an on-time (or even early) arrival into Chicago, though. We arrived in Columbus, WI (the Las Vegas, NM of the north, sharing a name with a far more populated city with no Amtrak service, and also the endpoint for past AGR loophole trips) on time. After that, our next stop is Milwaukee, and then we’re following the route of the Hiawatha to Chicago.

Looks like we’ll be on time - if so I could have taken 354 home, though at this point I’m locked into my hotel, and want to see the Venture cars on 350. Though it should be nice staying in the JW Marriott downtown - got a good last-minute deal there, which will have a pool I can relax in unlike my original hotel choice (and since I was a kid checking out the pool has always been one tof the things I look forward to the most in hotels). While it is a quick walk to the station, I am dreading a bit having to deal with general coach boarding at Chicago Union Station - as my sleeper arrives the night before, I can‘t use my ticket to access the Metropolitan Lounge. Could use points or cash to get a pass, but not sure it’s worth it - and obviously don’t want Business Class on this trip as that would be a Horizon car.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 14, 2022)

thully said:


> Slept better last night, and ended up being woken by an announcement that the dining car was open for breakfast around 7:45am. Was glad I didn’t set an alarm - if I had, it would have gone off underneath my bed with no way to silence it without putting it up since my phone fell there down through the crack overnight, At that point we were in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area and closing in on St. Paul Union Depot, having made up the 2 hours we were behind overnight in North Dakota. Wanted to take a shower, but the sign said “in use” despite seemingly no noise at all coming from there. Did other things and came back shortly after to find the same situation. Thinking the door may be broken, I knocked to find out that there was indeed someone in there. Ended up going to breakfast - got the same thing as yesterday, though ordered It all up-front. Finished my breakfast while we were stopped at MSP, and went back down to the shower that was now open.
> 
> Finished showering just as we pulled out of the station, grabbed coffee, and then went to the lounge car to see the Mississippi. Saw a CP facility as well as a lot of CP freight cars - kind of the reverse of when I saw BNSF in Canada. All the seats on that side were full, so ended up going back to my sleeper. Eventually went back and got a seat and hung out there until we got to Wisconsin, when I had lunch. Talked to a couple from Colorado who had flown to Portland to take this to Milwaukee - found they were also familiar with the Zephyr and its mooners (and saw the mooner at Glacier Park yesterday), as well as the Rocky Mountaineer starting service in Colorado. I also mentioned riding the Surfliner and the upcoming trip to San Diego - the Southwest Chief was brought up, though I mentioned I was probably just going to fly due to the situation with withdrawn sleepers, high cost (SWC roomettes are running more than the EB was now, and that’s a train I’ve been on before), and worries about daily service being curtailed. As we arrived in Wisconsin Dells, I reminisced about a past family trip there.
> 
> ...


Let us know what riding coach is like on the Illinois Service trains heading home. My daughter used to ride the Lincoln Service coming home from graduate school in the Chicago suburbs, but she didn't talk about it. (And the hubby and I would need to catch a Lincoln Service train to Chicago before boarding any Amtrak LD train except the Texas Eagle (station stop 20 miles SW of us) or the City of New Orleans (our adult son can drive us to Kankakee, about a 45-minute drive E of us).)


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## thully (Aug 14, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Let us know what riding coach is like on the Illinois Service trains heading home. My daughter used to ride the Lincoln Service coming home from graduate school in the Chicago suburbs, but she didn't talk about it. (And the hubby and I would need to catch a Lincoln Service train to Chicago before boarding any Amtrak LD train except the Texas Eagle (station stop 20 miles SW of us) or the City of New Orleans (our adult son can drive us to Kankakee, about a 45-minute drive E of us).)


I’m actually taking the Wolverine, which is one of the Michigan services. Will be on 350, the early-morning run out of Chicago, heading to Ann Arbor, MI. The interesting thing about this train (as well as 355, the late departure on Michigan) is it is one of the first with the new Siemens Venture coaches. Have heard there have been some growing pains there (currently you can’t board through the new cars - Horizons on the ends of the train are apparently used for boarding),


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 14, 2022)

thully said:


> I’m actually taking the Wolverine, which is one of the Michigan services. Will be on 350, the early-morning run out of Chicago, heading to Ann Arbor, MI. The interesting thing about this train (as well as 355, the late departure on Michigan) is it is one of the first with the new Siemens Venture coaches. Have heard there have been some growing pains there (currently you can’t board through the new cars - Horizons on the ends of the train are apparently used for boarding),


I had forgotten your description from the beginning of this thread of the ingenious combination of transportation options you had taken to get from Michigan to Toronto; sorry!


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## thully (Aug 15, 2022)

We arrived into Chicago early last night, which was nice - everybody made their connections, and I would have made 354 with enough time to grab dinner. Though I wasn’t riding 354 - I had planned to stay overnight due to this not being guaranteed and the opportunity to ride new Venture cars on 350 (or so I thought). Was a really quick walk from the Union Station Adams St entrance to my hotel (the JW Marriott), and that entrance happened to be right by McDonalds and Dunkin’ (something I noted for tomorrow, as I would need to grab a quick breakfast before boarding unless I wanted to wait for the cafe car).

After checking in, walked down to Giordano’s for dinner, which was just a couple blocks. Walking there, I passed the Quincy station on the L - not only was I close to Union Station, I was close to the L as well. Though I wouldn’t be riding it - I had an early night and just wanted to relax. Got some cheese bread and a personal-size deep dish pizza - I’ve been having some stomach issues so haven’t had any in quite a while (and starting slow). Dinner was good - a nice change from the train menu (which was the same every night, unlike the Canadian which rotated).

Went back to the hotel and checked out the pool and hot tub, a rarity in downtown Chicago and part of why I changed hotels. I had been at the Hilton Garden Inn Central Loop, which had opened recently and was an even shorter walk to Union Station, but didn’t have a pool. Just getting off a long train with an early departure tomorrow, I felt like relaxing rather than exploring Chicago - and the last-minute deal I found was not that much more (actually about the same, though I had used Hilton points for part of the previous booking). That was pretty nice, and I stayed until it got a bit too crowded/noisy. Decided to try out the large bathtub in my room, and then went to bed early to be up for 350.

Woke up at 5:25am, which is when I sent my alarm for - the goal being to be at the station at 6am. Ended up missing that goal slightly - getting ready took me a little bit longer than planned, and there was a slight delay at the front desk as someone had a complex issue (though I was able to drop off my keys and leave when I asked). Made it to the station around 6:10, and headed for McDonalds - Dunkin’ was not yet open (which seems silly given it was after 6am in a busy train station). There was no line, and I got my breakfast quickly (and just in time, as a line formed right afterwards). Then I made my way towards the Amtrak boarding lounges, and asked where the Wolverine boarded - was directed to Gate C. Then, a small line had started to form -wondered if it was just business class, but got in anyway. It soon became a big line as they made the boarding announcement, so that was good thinking - I had timed it just right. They did start boarding with business class (during which I thought about how it would stink to pay more money to sit in an older car - or so I thought), and then eventually got to coach.

Once we made our way to the track, I was greeted with a surprise - Horizon cars. Not just BC and cars for boarding at the end of the consist, but every car was a Horizon car. Ugh - had I known I’d have chanced 354, particularly when they started allowing multi-city booking with the Empire Builder. Disappointed, I boarded at the car I was directed to for Ann Arbor (I had been worried they would direct me to a Horizon car in a mostly-Venture consist and I’d have to plead to ride the new cars, but didn’t think they would withdraw Venture cars entirely). It was at least a refurbished Horizon car (which looked in better shape than the Superliners I had been on), and I was able to nab a prime window seat with no one next to me. Probably would have been worse crowds on 354, though I would have likely tried to get business class there.

Once on board, I ate my breakfast, and we soon began our journey out of Chicago Union Station. Passed a lot of Norfolk Southern freight (the bane of many an Amtrak train into or out of Chicago’s existence), stopped at Hammond-Whiting, and then paralleled the South Shore Line (to which I hope this train is moved in the near future). Got through that stretch without an issue, and then switched to the Amtrak Michigan Line and sped up. Passed the now-shuttered Michigan City station (which still has an Amtrak sign), and then entered Michigan (and Eastern Time) and stopped in New Buffalo. Aside from Chicago, that is the main stop I get off at west of Ann Arbor, as it is the only stop on the Wolverine in Michigan adjacent to Lake Michigan (and I like visiting Lake Michigan). The cafe car made its opening announcement (having finished my breakfast I may get a coffee), and we quickly reached the stop at Niles after that - hoping the rest of this trip is uneventful.

(As a side note, it would be nice to have more options to get to Lake Michigan without a car - obviously St. Joseph’s station is lake-adjacent too, but it would require a day-long backtrack to Chicago to connect. Holland is close, but Has the same backtrack issue and there is no easy transit option (or even readily available Uber/Lyft) connecting the beach and downtown - there may be dial-a-ride, but it is limited to weekday daytimes and still says it’s for essential trips only. Maybe if the Wolverine re-routes to the South Shore Line we’ll get Indiana Dunes as another option, and maybe if the Pere Marquette re-routes using the Michigan Line to New Buffalo we’ll get better connections in the future. Ideally, we‘d also have a Holland-Grand Rapids/Lansing/Ann Arbor/Detroit train and there would be some kind of shuttle connecting downtown Holland and the beach, though that’s perhaps farther off)


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## jiml (Aug 15, 2022)

Really enjoyed your complete report. The JW and that Giordano's are both my "go-to" when using Amtrak to or from Chicago.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Aug 15, 2022)

Giordano's was a very popular pizza place at its Champaign location when the hubby and I were grad students at the University of Illinois. It's good to hear that their Loop location has excellent pizza as well (and is within walking distance of Chicago's Union Station!).


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## thully (Aug 15, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Giordano's was a very popular pizza place at its Champaign location when the hubby and I were grad students at the University of Illinois. It's good to hear that their Loop location has excellent pizza as well (and is within walking distance of Chicago's Union Station!).


Yeah - I actually saw a lot of suitcases there, so I’m guessing a lot of people came over there to eat during their Chicago layover or before an evening train. Also, I forgot to mention that I saw someone with a Detroit Tigers hat there - looked up the schedule and they were in fact playing in Chicago that afternoon! Kind of funny when they were playing in Toronto the night I was there, and in both cases I narrowly missed being able to go to one of the games. Guessing there may have been a lot of Tigers fans on 354 last night - have done that trip before, and also did a same-day 351-354 trip to see them when they played the Cubs in a day game at Wrigley (which a lot of other fans also did).


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## Mike99 (Aug 15, 2022)

Living across the old ocean in London, England. I've really enjoyed the description you've given of each part of your journey, especially the food, important for all of us. Thanks been a great read. Best Wishes, Mike


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## PeeweeTM (Aug 15, 2022)

Thanks for your well-written trip report, I liked it a lot!


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## thully (Aug 15, 2022)

So the rest of the Wolverine trip was rather uneventful - we stopped to let 351 and 353 pass, but that’s about all. 351 went by too fast to tell if it had Venture cars, though 353 definitely did not. I did end up going to the cafe car for a coffee, which had a pretty long line. As to the Venture cars not being on this consist, I did get one possible explanation for the change - a few weeks ago one of the Wolverines was insanely late, causing the consists to switch. One other brief anecdote from last night’s Chicago trip - in my room, there were several pictures of trains, which seemed fitting (particularly since my Seattle room did as well).

All in all, that was a great trip - quite happy to be back on long-distance trains for the first time since 2019. The Canadian (and the time in Vancouver/Victoria was the highlight of the trip, but it was great to finally ride the Empire Builder - now I’ve taken all the Amtrak western long-distance trains, at least in one direction. There are quite a few eastern LD trains I haven’t rode (the Crescent and all the Florida trains, and I’ve never seen upstate New York on 48 eastbound or the CHI-TOL segment of the Lake Shore or Capitol), though flex dining and lack of Sightseer Lounges make those less attractive (and I never see myself on the Auto Train as I don’t drive). It definitely was the longest number of train days on a single trip for me - my all coach Wolverine+Southwest Chief+Surfliner+Sunset Limited+CONO+Wolverine trip over 10 years ago came close, but this was 1 day longer. The lowlight of the trip was probably cutting my foot at the BC Lions game (with a dishonorable mention to 9pm dinners on the Canadian and not getting Venture cars on 350), though all the trains were generally on time or even early.

Not sure when I’ll ride another overnight long-distance train - was thinking about doing one at least one way to San Diego for the Gathering, but the issues with Amtrak sleepers plus the jump in pricing there have given me second thoughts. Do still want to go to San Diego though - it’s been a while since I’ve done the Surfliner and I love San Diego (having lived there for 4 years, half of which was walking distance to Santa Fe Depot). Might try to fit something else in there - perhaps a LAX-EMY daytime Starlight run, or ARB-CHI on the Wolverine (hopefully one with Venture cars) and fly from ORD using a credit on American Airlines. Or just go to Chicago for fun, though I’m concerned about the issues I’ve heard about reliability/safety on CTA. From this trip, I also have enough VIA points for a Corridor trip to Toronto, though currently getting to Windsor would actually cost more than the cash fare Windsor-Toronto thanks to the lack of Tunnel Bus. I do want to do the GSC-SLC segment of the Zephyr as part of a trip to Glenwood Springs, though that will be next year. In any case, I’m glad to get this one in.


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## Michigan Mom (Aug 15, 2022)

Thanks for taking us along on your adventures, I really enjoy your vivid writing style and details provided. After all that you experienced, planning the overnight in Chicago struck me as an excellent idea. You might have even found it a bit of a letdown to continue on home the same day. I'm not familiar with the JW but know the area and the location is perfect to be near the station.
Like you I have taken coach to and from Chicago on the Wolverine, many a time, and there is not, IMO any compelling reason to pay the BC surcharge if you are not connecting to a LD train.


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## GAT (Aug 15, 2022)

thully said:


> So the rest of the Wolverine trip was rather uneventful - we stopped to let 351 and 353 pass, but that’s about all. 351 went by too fast to tell if it had Venture cars, though 353 definitely did not. I did end up going to the cafe car for a coffee, which had a pretty long line. As to the Venture cars not being on this consist, I did get one possible explanation for the change - a few weeks ago one of the Wolverines was insanely late, causing the consists to switch. One other brief anecdote from last night’s Chicago trip - in my room, there were several pictures of trains, which seemed fitting (particularly since my Seattle room did as well).
> 
> All in all, that was a great trip - quite happy to be back on long-distance trains for the first time since 2019. The Canadian (and the time in Vancouver/Victoria was the highlight of the trip, but it was great to finally ride the Empire Builder - now I’ve taken all the Amtrak western long-distance trains, at least in one direction. There are quite a few eastern LD trains I haven’t rode (the Crescent and all the Florida trains, and I’ve never seen upstate New York on 48 eastbound or the CHI-TOL segment of the Lake Shore or Capitol), though flex dining and lack of Sightseer Lounges make those less attractive (and I never see myself on the Auto Train as I don’t drive). It definitely was the longest number of train days on a single trip for me - my all coach Wolverine+Southwest Chief+Surfliner+Sunset Limited+CONO+Wolverine trip over 10 years ago came close, but this was 1 day longer. The lowlight of the trip was probably cutting my foot at the BC Lions game (with a dishonorable mention to 9pm dinners on the Canadian and not getting Venture cars on 350), though all the trains were generally on time or even early.
> 
> Not sure when I’ll ride another overnight long-distance train - was thinking about doing one at least one way to San Diego for the Gathering, but the issues with Amtrak sleepers plus the jump in pricing there have given me second thoughts. Do still want to go to San Diego though - it’s been a while since I’ve done the Surfliner and I love San Diego (having lived there for 4 years, half of which was walking distance to Santa Fe Depot). Might try to fit something else in there - perhaps a LAX-EMY daytime Starlight run, or ARB-CHI on the Wolverine (hopefully one with Venture cars) and fly from ORD using a credit on American Airlines. Or just go to Chicago for fun, though I’m concerned about the issues I’ve heard about reliability/safety on CTA. From this trip, I also have enough VIA points for a Corridor trip to Toronto, though currently getting to Windsor would actually cost more than the cash fare Windsor-Toronto thanks to the lack of Tunnel Bus. I do want to do the GSC-SLC segment of the Zephyr as part of a trip to Glenwood Springs, though that will be next year. In any case, I’m glad to get this one in.


Future travel? One suggestion to consider, on routes you've never been. Take The Ocean, Montreal to Halifax, NS; the ferry from Yarmouth, NS to Bar Harbor, ME: and then a variety of Amtrak to Albany or NYC for the return home on the Lakeshore Limited. Just a thought!


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## thully (Aug 16, 2022)

The Ocean is something I had thought of - did not know there was a ferry I could use to do a loop involving the Lake Shore Limited. Would be basically the East Coast version of what I did going West. If I did that I’d probably start with 48 since I’ve never done it eastbound (I’ve done 49) and would like to go through upstate NY in daylight, backtracking to Chicago to avoid that awful 3am departure out of Toledo. Only question is what to do in Halifax/Maine without a car - I don’t know much about those area, but I’d expect transit is far more limited than in Vancouver or Seattle. Renting is not an option (don’t drive).


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## thully (Aug 16, 2022)

By the way, I got an answer on the Venture cars question:



Though that doesn’t completely make sense - 352 and 353 wouldn’t share a consist.


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## thully (Aug 16, 2022)

I think it’s probably 351 and 352 - saw this:

Unconfirmed, of course, but subject to change.


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