# Bombardier fires back at critics



## jiml (Aug 7, 2019)

Interesting response in the National Post. Bombardier has been criticized from many corners recently for failures in everything from streetcar deliveries (Toronto), subway cars (New York) and loss of the VIA contract for new equipment. Most recent publicity has centered on significant layoffs at their railcar plant in Ontario. I guess they thought it was time to alter the public's perception: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/op...et-your-perception-about-bombardier-heres-why


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## jis (Aug 7, 2019)

Bombardier is having a bit of a to and from with DB in Europe regarding poor welds on ICE-4s that Bombardier itself flagged in their QC. DB has halted taking further deliveries of ICE-4s pending resolution and completion of corrective action. Bombardier is a subcontractor to Siemens on the ICE-4 order, and a huge one at that.


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## sttom (Aug 7, 2019)

Hasn't Bombardier always been a bit of a hot mess? Even here in the Bay Area, they had a lot of hiccups getting the new BART cars in. And it's not like VIA has had great experiences with Bombardier in its existence. So it makes sense that things would catch up to them eventually.


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## jiml (Aug 7, 2019)

Yup, but in Canada they were often the only choice for VIA or transit systems requiring government funding. VIA broke with that tradition recently for common sense reasons. Depending on the outcome of our autumn election don't be surprised if Siemens is out and Bombardier is back in, given their recent struggles. Promising to restore Canadian jobs could buy a lot of good will with the current government if re-elected.


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## neroden (Aug 8, 2019)

Bombardier was actually the leading passenger rail manufacturer in the 1990s and early 2000s -- until they self-destructed spectacularly in the 2010s due to really dumb attempts at outsourcing railcar manufacturing to Mexico, and a top management obsession with a failed airline program which blew up the corporate finances.

After Bombardier self-destructed, Siemens took the top slot. Bombardier will not recover its reputation easily.


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## Urban Sky (Aug 8, 2019)

jiml said:


> Yup, but in Canada they were often the only choice for VIA or transit systems requiring government funding. VIA broke with that tradition recently for common sense reasons. Depending on the outcome of our autumn election don't be surprised if Siemens is out and Bombardier is back in, given their recent struggles. Promising to restore Canadian jobs could buy a lot of good will with the current government if re-elected.


“Promising to restore Canadian jobs” doesn’t change the trade agreements which the Canadian government has negotiated and signed and which explicitly prevent VIA Rail from favouring Bombardier (e.g. by imposing local content rules).

If you were aware that the long overdue renewal of the old MR-63 fleet of the Métro de Montréal was delayed by half a decade due to the provincial government believing that they could simply award the contract to Bombardier without any competitive tendering and if you had any idea of how little VIA Rail could afford any significant delay in its urgent fleet renewal (part of our Corridor fleet is 70 years old and these cars are not even the most urgent to replace!), you would understand how baseless your speculation is...


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## jiml (Aug 8, 2019)

Urban Sky said:


> “Promising to restore Canadian jobs” doesn’t change the trade agreements which the Canadian government has negotiated and signed and which explicitly prevent VIA Rail from favouring Bombardier (e.g. by imposing local content rules).
> 
> If you were aware that the long overdue renewal of the old MR-63 fleet of the Métro de Montréal was delayed by half a decade due to the provincial government believing that they could simply award the contract to Bombardier without any competitive tendering and if you had any idea of how little VIA Rail could afford any significant delay in its urgent fleet renewal (part of our Corridor fleet is 70 years old and these cars are not even the most urgent to replace!), you would understand how baseless your speculation is...


Don't get me wrong, I am totally in favor of VIA buying the Siemens trainsets. I am also aware of the need/wish to replace some corridor cars of both the LRC and Renaissance varieties before even the HEP-2's. That being said, I have little faith in the current federal government to follow through on any agreement if it jeopardizes jobs in Quebec. Thunder Bay is one thing - they can blame Ontario for that. My "baseless speculation" might potentially be offset by your lack of objectivity - being too close to the situation, with all due respect.


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## Urban Sky (Aug 8, 2019)

jiml said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am totally in favor of VIA buying the Siemens trainsets. I am also aware of the need/wish to replace some corridor cars of both the LRC and Renaissance varieties before even the HEP-2's. That being said, I have little faith in the current federal government to follow through on any agreement if it jeopardizes jobs in Quebec. Thunder Bay is one thing - they can blame Ontario for that. My "baseless speculation" might potentially be offset by your lack of objectivity - being too close to the situation, with all due respect.


Do you really think a federal government - especially a liberal or conservative one - would violate a trade agreement and thus invite Siemens to sue it for damages, just to create the fiction that they are protecting jobs here in Quebec?


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2019)

Urban Sky said:


> Do you really think a federal government - especially a liberal or conservative one - would violate a trade agreement and thus invite Siemens to sue it for damages, just to create the fiction that they are protecting jobs here in Quebec?


If it was the current Executive Branch of the US Government I'd say Yes!


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## Urban Sky (Aug 9, 2019)

Bob Dylan said:


> If it was the current Executive Branch of the US Government I'd say Yes!


No, they would pull out of the trade agreement altogether, but nobody discusses that option north of the border, thankfully...!


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## jiml (Aug 9, 2019)

Urban Sky said:


> Do you really think a federal government - especially a liberal or conservative one - would violate a trade agreement and thus invite Siemens to sue it for damages, just to create the fiction that they are protecting jobs here in Quebec?


I fear this discussion has gone too far off-topic and is now more focused on Canadian politics than railroads. I do believe the next government - regardless of party - will have more to say on the Siemens deal, but from vastly different perspectives. What they have to say will depend on a lot of things - majority or minority on either side, held in power by a third party, etc. Rather than speculate on what "will" or "won't" happen, let's just sit back and watch it unfold. I really hope to be riding a new trainset to Ottawa or Montreal in the projected timeframe.


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## jis (Aug 9, 2019)

Maybe Siemens could contract out all the car shell welding work to Bombardier as a SOP to QC and then watch them fall on their sword again, like they have with the ICE-4 order. A company that can't even bond stainless steel and aluminum reliably should probably revert back to doing only dog sleds, and remember to only use rivets. LOL


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## Urban Sky (Aug 9, 2019)

jis said:


> Maybe Siemens could contract out all the car shell welding work to Bombardier as a SOP to GC and then watch them fall on their sword again, like they have with the ICE-4 order. A company that can't even bond stainless steel and aluminum reliably should probably revert back to doing only dog sleds, and remember to only use rivets. LOL


First of all, Bombardier doesn’t have a monopoly on grossly delayed deliveries and exasperated customers - neither in North America nor in Europe or in other passenger rail rolling stock markets.
Secondly, Siemens has already set up “procurement offices [...] in Montreal, Quebec and Oakville, Ontario [...] to provide Canadian content of up to 20% in supplies and services” for VIA’s new fleet with an application deadline (for interested local suppliers) which was already in March 2019, which means that by the general election this autumn, there will be Canadian jobs at stake throughout the country, should the new federal government decide to revisit the contract.

Add this to the fact that Bombardier is currently seen politically as almost as toxic as SNC-Lavalin and we all might agree that the last thing Bombardier needs is anything which feeds the legend that the only thing which keeps them in business is government handouts and political interference in competitive procurement processes. And that’s why I call this “baseless speculation”: because apart from the current provincial government of Quebec (i.e. the actor which thankfully has the least influence on this procurement decision), there is nobody who would have anything to gain from such interference - including Bombardier itself...


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## jis (Aug 9, 2019)

I agree with you. Suffice it to say that my comment was mostly in jest merely referring back to where Bombardier came from. Bombardier's current rail equipment manufacturing has relatively little to do with Canada anyway. A preponderance of their rail equipment divisions are acquired European companies and are all located in Europe, and a vast majority of their customers are not in North America anyway. They are in Eurasia. And they have actually made some deliveries on time too.

AFAICT their joint ventures with Indian Railways, which are now mostly Indian Railways operations with only residual Bombardier advisors on site for electric locomotive manufacture is doing very well, for example. But current Bombardier involvement is minimal. It is IR owned and managed manufacturing somewhere between 500 and a thousand locomotives a year, including designs derived from the original Bombardier ones they acquired, for a system which is chronically short of electric locomotives, while it is working hard to electrify the entire vast system by 2025.


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