# Silliest OBS Made 'Rules'



## The Davy Crockett (Mar 25, 2012)

Yesterday I rode 67 ALX - WBG & 66 WBG - ALX.

The LSA in the Cafe on 67 was GREAT! :excl: A friendly, efficient, professional who sincerely seems happy to serve you and chat briefly. 

So maybe that spoiled me. :unsure:

On my trip back on 66 I went to the cafe and the LSA was okay - until I went to pay. My tab was $7.50. I got out my bills, gave him $7.00, put a dollar on his tip tray and while getting out my change, he informed me he doesn't accept nickels and dimes. :blink: :wacko:

The more I thought about it, the sillier it seemed. I've heard all sorts of bizarre things said by obs in the past, but this struck me as one of the silliest. :lol:

What's your 'silly rule' story?

Note that I said OBS in the title, but if a conductor said something silly, I think the thread can handle it. :giggle:


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 25, 2012)

I guess the only way to handle that situation is to give him the extra $1 you had put in the tip tray and when you received the two quarters back in change, put them in the tip tray. :giggle:


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 25, 2012)

Railroad Bill said:


> I guess the only way to handle that situation is to give him the extra $1 you had put in the tip tray and when you received the two quarters back in change, put them in the tip tray. :giggle:


or...put the quarters in your pocket and walk away


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## dabrilloman (Mar 25, 2012)

Tumbleweed said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the only way to handle that situation is to give him the extra $1 you had put in the tip tray and when you received the two quarters back in change, put them in the tip tray. :giggle:
> ...


and tell him you don't give out quarters!


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

Exactly. Stiff and walk away.

I was thinking we should start a thread entitled Amtrak emplyee hall of shame to document amtrak's worst emplyees.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> Exactly. Stiff and walk away.
> 
> I was thinking we should start a thread entitled Amtrak emplyee hall of shame to document amtrak's worst emplyees.


So, you are sure that this wasn't a job rule/requirement? That this one employee just made this all up?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Mar 25, 2012)

I usually dump at least the change into the Tip Kitty and depending on how much I get back, may well just round it up to a buck for a "normal" purchase of a few dollars in the Lounge. But in a case like this, I would have growled at the Kitty and made a point of clearly returning the change to my pocket.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

It's incompetent not to have proper change. I don't know if it's the employees fault or Amtrak. But it us still poor service.


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## Trogdor (Mar 25, 2012)

I trust complaints like this are being submitted to Amtrak customer service rather than just posting them on AU.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

I wouldn't nominate this one for gall of shame. I'd start with Polly on the subset limited and tha baggage room idiots at nyp.


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> I wouldn't nominate this one for gall of shame. I'd start with Polly on the subset limited and tha baggage room idiots at nyp.


What's up with the baggagemen at NYP?


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

Extremely unpleasant experience when I rode 49 back in January. One agent scolded me for not waiting to be called before crossing a line on the floor. I ignored her because she was waiting on another customer and I saw the other agent approaching. She made eye contact with him and he made snide remarks about checking my bag to Orlando on a silver service train. I got a hold of the station manager, and she had to go through all the luggage to check that mine was on 49. It was. But remarks and service were uncalled for. Especially since I was traveling in a sleeper.


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> Extremely unpleasant experience when I rode 49 back in January. One agent scolded me for not waiting to be called before crossing a line on the floor. I ignored her because she was waiting on another customer and I saw the other agent approaching. She made eye contact with him and he made snide remarks about checking my bag to Orlando on a silver service train. I got a hold of the station manager, and she had to go through all the luggage to check that mine was on 49. It was. But remarks and service were uncalled for. Especially since I was traveling in a sleeper.


Sorry to hear that. Whether you are coach or sleeper, though, should make no difference. You should have been treated more courteously, anyway.

I believe some of the 'rules' and enforcement are made to stroke the ego's of the 'enforcer'. Probably just want to assert their 'authority'. No excuse for it in a service business in this day and age....


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 25, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> I trust complaints like this are being submitted to Amtrak customer service rather than just posting them on AU.


Yes. As well as the compliments.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 25, 2012)

Allot of the rules are made up to help them be more lazy. Its all to benefit them no one else.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

Yes. I complained directly to the station manager at nyp. I also wrote a letter about Polly.


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## AKA (Mar 25, 2012)

Tumbleweed said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the only way to handle that situation is to give him the extra $1 you had put in the tip tray and when you received the two quarters back in change, put them in the tip tray. :giggle:
> ...



That gets my vote.


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## EMDF9A (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> Yes. I complained directly to the station manager at nyp. I also wrote a letter about Polly.


Can someone refresh my memory about Polly?


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

She is/hopefully now was an LSA on 21/22 with a reputation for being rude and providing poor service.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> She is/hopefully now was an LSA on 21/22 with a reputation for being rude and providing poor service.


Steve: FYI, Polly USED to be an LSA, she is now just a Food Service Worker on the Eagles out of CHI, but she also does work the Extra-Board as a Coach Attendant, I had her once and she basically hung out in the CCC with the other "Cafe Lizards" that make up some of the Crews on the Eagle!! Last time I saw her working the Diner on the way to DAL for the Texas Mini-Gathering she was VERY Friendly and Gave Good Service  , think maybe yours and Others Complaints to Amtrak might have resulted in an Attitude Adjustment! Still hope shes not there when I ride #22 to CHI on the way to PHL for NTD!!


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## Steve4031 (Mar 25, 2012)

What is a food service worker? I might be taking 21 and 22 to and from stl in may to avoid track work bustitutions. My gf will be with me. It would be Polly's best interest to be VERY nice to us.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 25, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> What is a food service worker? I might be taking 21 and 22 to and from stl in may to avoid track work bustitutions. My gf will be with me. It would be Polly's best interest to be VERY nice to us.


The Waitpersons that work the Diner under the LSAs Supervision are what I call Food Service Workers, don't know their Actual Title, perhaps one of the OBS Members has the "Official" Name! Hope yall don't get her either, there are some really Good OBS on the Eagles now, maybe the CHI Suits are finally starting to Actually do their Job!, instead of riding a Desk!!


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## Trainmans daughter (Mar 25, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> What's your 'silly rule' story?
> 
> Note that I said OBS in the title, but if a conductor said something silly, I think the thread can handle it. :giggle:


Last summer, Michael in the PPC refused to let a man partake in the wine and cheese tasting event because the man was a recovering alcoholic and didn't want the wine. His wife even offered to drink it for him, but Michael told him if he didn't drink the wine, he couldn't taste the cheese, either!


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## Blue Marble Travel (Mar 25, 2012)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. Stiff and walk away.
> ...


I could be wrong, but I believe that it is actually illegal to refuse "legal tender." It is not, however, a requirement to make change.

In other words, Amtrak could refuse to change any bill over, say, a $50, really to avoid counterfit $100's, but in theory "because we don't have change." But they can't refuse a legal $'s worth of coins for a $1 purchase.

Regardless, this is certainly a made-up (employee) rule, not a company rule.


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 25, 2012)

I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 25, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.


I wonder what the Conductor would have had to say about that?


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 25, 2012)

A business can chose to refuse whatever money they want. DiscriminatiOn and such not withstanding.


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## NY Penn (Mar 25, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> A business can chose to refuse whatever money they want. DiscriminatiOn and such not withstanding.


According to (of all sources) Wikipedia, a business in the US must accept US currency because it is 'legal tender for all debts, public and *private*'.


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## trainman74 (Mar 25, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> According to (of all sources) Wikipedia, a business in the US must accept US currency because it is 'legal tender for all debts, public and *private*'.


Nope -- it's legal to _tender_ it (offer it as payment), but they don't _have to_ accept it. Witness all the businesses that won't accept bills over $20.


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## VentureForth (Mar 25, 2012)

Regardless of the law, this dude should have allowed anyone to pay with Pennies if that's what they wanted trip pay in.


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## guest (Mar 25, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.


That IS the company guideline when assigning seats on a long haul train. That's why there is a lounge car, so you can get the your window access. Only 50 percent of the seats are "window" seats, and given a choice, about 95 percent of passengers would request one (or require one, if such a thing were allowed). The passenger manifests that are given to OBS employees do NOT generally indicate how passengers are grouped (unless it's LITERALLY a group, and indicated as such on the manifest), so it is necessary to hold block of seats for families and small groups. Do you think it would be appropriate to separate a parent traveling with three small children from them?

There IS one way you can be guaranteed a window seat, however: book a sleeper.


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## LA guest (Mar 25, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Regardless of the law, this dude should have allowed anyone to pay with Pennies if that's what they wanted trip pay in.


Amtrak doesn't use pennies, but there's no logical reason to refuse nickels and dimes, as long as we're not talking about ten dollars worth of nickels.


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## AlanB (Mar 25, 2012)

LA guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless of the law, this dude should have allowed anyone to pay with Pennies if that's what they wanted trip pay in.
> ...


No, there is a logical reason. It requires more counting on his part to reconcile everything. It's also a violation of company policy however!


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 25, 2012)

guest said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.
> ...


I believe a thing called _common sense_ does not feature in the company guidelines. I completely agree families need to seat together but when the train is running almost 50% empty all the way (don't the OBS staff know the number of passengers reserved on a particular run from their manifests? Or is it a company policy too to not use brains and figure out approximate loads from the manifests?) what great sense does it make to bundle all single passengers in one half of the coach and run the other half *empty* all the way? Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?


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## Palmland (Mar 25, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?


Having grown up in the stone age, you are absolutely correct. A coach trip on Atlantic Coast Line's East Coast Champion found us with assigned seats - something like A52, W52 for window and aisle seats. Of course that was done with an army of ticket clerks somewhere, since replaced by so much more efficient computers.


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## rrdude (Mar 25, 2012)

Can you say "Power Trip"?



Texan Eagle said:


> I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.


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## rrdude (Mar 25, 2012)

However, they still must TAKE or ACCEPT pennies, if a cusx wants to pay with them..........



LA guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless of the law, this dude should have allowed anyone to pay with Pennies if that's what they wanted trip pay in.
> ...


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > What is a food service worker? I might be taking 21 and 22 to and from stl in may to avoid track work bustitutions. My gf will be with me. It would be Polly's best interest to be VERY nice to us.
> ...


Amtrak calls the waiters "Service Attendants", hence the person in charge is the "Lead Service Attendant" or "LSA". Down in the galley is the Chef, and the assistant "Food Specialist". The Sleeping car is run by a Train Attendant - Sleeper, and the chair cars by a Train Attendant - Coach. At least that's the way I remember it....


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2012)

Palmland said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?
> ...


On a long distance train, that sometimes travels for multi-day journeys, assigning specific seats certainly is possible, but there are some drawbacks, as Amtrak discovered in its early years. Consists, are not always 'consistant'....Seats can be assigned that may not exist, due to variances and substitutions. Passengers on long trips may see empty seats that they deem more desirable, and just occupy them, leading to confrontations with other passengers and/or crew, as described...the crew loses the flexibility to seat parties together boarding downline, if holders of reserved seats refuse to yield what they are assigned. Not saying that is right or wrong, just makes grief for the crew trying to keep everybody happy....


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## AlanB (Mar 25, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> I completely agree families need to seat together but when the train is running almost 50% empty all the way (don't the OBS staff know the number of passengers reserved on a particular run from their manifests? Or is it a company policy too to not use brains and figure out approximate loads from the manifests?) what great sense does it make to bundle all single passengers in one half of the coach and run the other half *empty* all the way? Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?


They know how many will be on the train at the time of departure, but of course more people can still buy tickets for stations further down the line. I'm also not sure if the manifest breaks things down by destination however. Meaning that an attendant would have to go count how many people would show up for his car, based upon their going to a destination that would land them in his/her car.


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## Nickrapak (Mar 25, 2012)

trainman74 said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > According to (of all sources) Wikipedia, a business in the US must accept US currency because it is 'legal tender for all debts, public and *private*'.
> ...



The law here is actually a bit odd. US coins & currency are legal tender for all _debts_, meaning that if there is no debt incurred, you can refuse a transaction. For example, if I go in to a 7-11, get a can of soda, and try to pay with a $50, the cashier can ask me to put the soda back, therefore there is no debt. However, if I take a can of soda, open it, and drink it, I have incurred a debt to the store in the amount of the value of the soda. If I try to pay with a $50, the cashier has to either take it or acknowledge that the debt is canceled (I don't have to pay for the soda). However, if he accepts the $50, tells me there is not enough change, and I say "okay", I have basically accepted that the value of the soda is $50, and I settled the debt.

So, relating back to the OP, the attendant could deny the nickels and dimes and take back an item (depending on which item, food safety laws, etc.), or if the attendant did not take an item back, the OP could have walked away with everything, since legal tender was offered and refused, and the attendant did not attempt to reduce the amount owed, therefore conceding the reduced value of the items.


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## sechs (Mar 25, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> According to (of all sources) Wikipedia, a business in the US must accept US currency because it is 'legal tender for all debts, public and *private*'.


That's for notes, not coins.


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## Marcy (Mar 25, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I completely agree families need to seat together but when the train is running almost 50% empty all the way (don't the OBS staff know the number of passengers reserved on a particular run from their manifests? Or is it a company policy too to not use brains and figure out approximate loads from the manifests?) what great sense does it make to bundle all single passengers in one half of the coach and run the other half *empty* all the way? Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?
> ...




Wouldn't a simple you can sit at one of the empty window seats but I may need to ask you to move back to your original seat later on????


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## AlanB (Mar 26, 2012)

Marcy said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Texan Eagle said:
> ...


Sadly, NO, that won't work in all cases. Yes, some will acknowledge that and move if need be. But others will quickly forget their promise to move. Case in point, we just had a story posted here a while ago where, IIRC, a passenger actually refused to move out of a handicapped seat when asked.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 26, 2012)

I run a business. Outside of certain protected discrimination items, I can refuse to accept money from peoPle for good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all. Find my business. If you spend more the. About 20 seconds trying to get me to reduce my price and you ain't buying from me at twice the listed price.


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## VentureForth (Mar 26, 2012)

sechs said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > According to (of all sources) Wikipedia, a business in the US must accept US currency because it is 'legal tender for all debts, public and *private*'.
> ...


No. They just don't have room to print it on the coin. But according to US Code 31.5103, all currency and coins are legal tender.

An interesting side note, a man in Utah was cited by police after paying a bill at a doctor's office with 2,500 pennies. Not for paying in pennies, but for causing a scene. 

Back to the topic at hand, I don't know if these are particulary funny OBS' own rules, but I have found it quite frustrating that though Business Class is described to be the same level of service on every train that it's offered (except Acela), the offerings and the way they are distributed are almost at the mercy of the attendant in charge and sadly don't have any semblance of consistency across the fleet.


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Marcy said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


I agree. Once the passenger has occupied the new seat for a while, they think that the law of 'squatters rights' applies...that they now 'own' it.......


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## scoostraw (Mar 26, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.


This happened to me once on 49. The attendant had posted signs on several seats "for families only". There really wasn't anyplace else to sit. I removed one of the signs and sat down. When she challenged me I told her that I get motion sickness unless I am next to a window.

She walked away.


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## sechs (Mar 26, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> No. They just don't have room to print it on the coin.


No. Coin has inherent value, while a note does not.
The point of the law that you cited is to say that "our" money is legal tender and other money is not.


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## VentureForth (Mar 27, 2012)

sechs said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > No. They just don't have room to print it on the coin.
> ...


That was the case when gold and silver was used, but today there is little intrinsic value in coins. That being said, it's true that the ratio of cost to value of a coin is much greater than currency. But not enough to make it a commodity.

I don't get the last part of your comment. Yes, that is the law of the United States. We are talking about using US coins on a US train (arguably to pay a PUBLIC debt, as this is a Federally operated program). We're not talking about anyone elses or any other kind of money. Nickles, dimes and pennies for the Cafe car is legal tender. Period.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree with the Posts that mention Coach Seat Assignments Made by OBS that Make No Sense such as there are Empty Coaches/Half Full etc. and the Pax that are on the Train are all Forced into One Car and made to Share Seats even though Plenty of Empty Seats are Available! (the usual Explanation is "We're Gonna Fill Up Down the Line!") and LSAs and Waiters in the Diner that just Make Up stuff for Their Convience, not the Passengers!(ie "You can't Have Refills/Hurry Up, we need Your Table, We're Closing" etc. etc.)Especially Irritating is when the LSA or Waiter Sits around talking on their Cell Phone/BSing with other Crew when the Diner is Very Busy!! (  Their Breaks come when the Diner is Closed, and they get more Sleep than the rest of the OBS!! Some of the OBS on the Texas Eagle Specialize in this! :angry2: !

But my Personal Pet Peeve is when SCAs expect you to do their Job for them such as Putting Up/Down your own Bed (it's Not that Hard but this IS their Job!)since they go "Off Duty" @ 10PM! etc.(not True!!) 

Other such things are Enptying your own Trash,not Putting out Juice/Water/Coffee, Hiding the Towels and Washrags, Not Cleaning the Restrooms! and Not Helping Older or Handicapped Passengers with their Luggage when they Board/DeBoard!!! Of Course the "Invisible SCA" is the Worst of All!


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## darien-l (Mar 27, 2012)

Not too long ago I was boarding the Sunset Limited with some friends and a cooler full of drinks. A passing cafe attendant inquired if we had alcohol in the cooler, and sternly warned us that consuming your own alcohol was not allowed anywhere on the train. We mentioned that we were in a sleeper, but she said it did not matter and threatened to bring the matter up with the conductor. We decided not to argue, and just promised not to drink said alcohol...


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## AlanB (Mar 27, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> But my Personal Pet Peeve is when SCAs expect you to do their Job for them such as Putting Up/Down your own Bed (it's Not that Hard but this IS their Job!)since they go "Off Duty" @ 10PM! etc.(not True!!)


Actually Jim, that can happen depending on how things are worked out with the crew. If there are two sleepers, one of two things can happen. The attendants can trade off with each other, read attendant #1 works both cars from 10PM to 2AM, while attendant #2 gets their 4 hours of sleep. Then they swap.

Or, the conductor could cover 1 of the sleepers from 10 - 2 and then the other from 2 - 6.



jimhudson said:


> Other such things are Enptying your own Trash,not Putting out Juice/Water/Coffee, Hiding the Towels and Washrags, Not Cleaning the Restrooms! and Not Helping Older or Handicapped Passengers with their Luggage when they Board/DeBoard!!! Of Course the "Invisible SCA" is the Worst of All!


Any attendant asking me to empty my trash will find that the trash can is still full upon arrival.


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## AlanB (Mar 27, 2012)

darien-l said:


> Not too long ago I was boarding the Sunset Limited with some friends and a cooler full of drinks. A passing cafe attendant inquired if we had alcohol in the cooler, and sternly warned us that consuming your own alcohol was not allowed anywhere on the train. We mentioned that we were in a sleeper, but she said it did not matter and threatened to bring the matter up with the conductor. We decided not to argue, and just promised not to drink said alcohol...


She was of course wrong!

And had she pursued the matter, the conductor would have corrected her no doubt.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 27, 2012)

scoostraw said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.
> ...


What I hate is single travelers hogging pairs of seats so that groups can't sit together. A few trips back Mrs. Ispolkom and I rode the Empire Builder in coach. When we boarded, I found a man sitting alone under a sign that said "For Families traveling together." I asked him to move, so that I would share the pair of seats with my wife. He declined, and asked what I was going to do about it. I told him that I'd find the conductor and that the conductor would make him move. He moved, grumbling, to double up with someone. When the conductor came by to take tickets, he made my new friend move to a different coach, I suppose for ease in doing a middle-of-night stop. Me, I like coach attendants who enforce the rules, though I'm certainly willing to stand up for myself.


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## VentureForth (Mar 27, 2012)

In all fairness, a good coach attendant won't ask a passenger to move during their trip at all. Hopefully, proper management would avoid that. Again - a call for reserved seating. Technology is there!! Amtrak even has it. Just gotta turn it on!


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## white rabbitt (Mar 27, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> In all fairness, a good coach attendant won't ask a passenger to move during their trip at all. Hopefully, proper management would avoid that. Again - a call for reserved seating. Technology is there!! Amtrak even has it. Just gotta turn it on!


does the coach attendant have a manifast of all there passengers names

so they know were they get off the train


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## AlanB (Mar 27, 2012)

wabbitt said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > In all fairness, a good coach attendant won't ask a passenger to move during their trip at all. Hopefully, proper management would avoid that. Again - a call for reserved seating. Technology is there!! Amtrak even has it. Just gotta turn it on!
> ...


Yes, the attendant does have a manifest. However, it's not always 100% up to date, as people can buy tickets after it is printed. The manifest also doesn't indicate if each person actually showed up to ride the train and it doesn't have a picture of the traveler, so it's not very useful for helping the attendant knowing who gets off the train at what stop.


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## white rabbitt (Mar 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> wabbitt said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


the reason i asked alan was i was on the cascade 3 years ago going to vancouver as the train slowed down and almost stoped in the outskirts of the vancouver station i saw 3 young people open a door and jumped out with there backpacks, noboby noticed it

and they made it into vancouver and avoided customs does that happen much


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## OBS (Mar 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> wabbitt said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


Actually, only sleeper manifests for LD trains have names. Coach manifests are numbers on/off at each stop only.


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## Trogdor (Mar 27, 2012)

wabbitt said:


> the reason i asked alan was i was on the cascade 3 years ago going to vancouver as the train slowed down and almost stoped in the outskirts of the vancouver station i saw 3 young people open a door and jumped out with there backpacks, noboby noticed it
> 
> and they made it into vancouver and avoided customs does that happen much


Did you mention it to anyone when you saw it? That would definitely be a problem.

That said, if you were on a Talgo train, I don't think you can even open the doors unless the train is stopped (the doors are trainlined and connected to the locomotive), and if the train was stopped, the train wouldn't move again until the door was closed. That would certainly require the conductor "noticing" something.

I don't specifically know if the Talgos require a coach key to open the doors.


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## white rabbitt (Mar 27, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> wabbitt said:
> 
> 
> > the reason i asked alan was i was on the cascade 3 years ago going to vancouver as the train slowed down and almost stoped in the outskirts of the vancouver station i saw 3 young people open a door and jumped out with there backpacks, noboby noticed it
> ...


what i remember was it was going vary slow when they jumped off


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## rtabern (Mar 27, 2012)

Some of the dumb things I have seen...

"NO PICTURES" -- (not really on-board crew, but worth a mention) I had two serious "run-ins" with Amtrak employees who insisted that pictures were not allowed in "their station". I ran into a surly gate attendant at Chicago Union Station (tall woman who always wears a skirt) who told me I couldn't take pictures of the concourse and south gate. I always carry the photo policy with me and she wouldn't even come over and acknowledge it. She said if I kept taking pictures she would call Amtrak Police. I have the number of a Station Manager in my cell phone who is a personal friend and when I threatened to call her she backed off. The most serious run-in that I had was in July 2011 at Penn Station. I was taking a quick picture outside Club Acela and got accosted by this guy in a suit (no Amtrak ID or anything) -- he refused to provide his name and said he was "in charge" of Penn Station and told me to stop taking pictures. I didn't and he threatened to get an NYPD officer. I lost it, as I was riding Acela FC to have lunch with one of the Vice-Presidents of Amtrak in WAS that day. When I told him who I was going to see, he clammed up and said "do whatever you want"... and actually refused to provide his name. A $10 tip to a red cap got his name and I informed the folks at 60 Mass what an [email protected]@ he was. Hopefully something was done about it.

"BLOCKING DELUXE ROOMS FOR SCA" - This was from the Southwest Chief in March 2011... I was traveling on a 10-day loop around the country with my friend Mike. We were in "Bedroom C" on a pretty empty Southwest Chief #4. Out of LAX, it was discovered that the top bunk wouldn't latch -- meaning the top bed couldn't be used because it could fold up against the wall if you hit a bump. The SCA wanted us to move to "Bedroom A" (which was unsold all the way to Chicago). We didn't want to do this because Bedroom A is a little smaller... and didnt see the point of being stuck in a smaller bedroom for the next 2 days just because of a bad bed. I suggested how about just letting us keep "C"... and I'd just go in and sleep in "A" during the night (if it remained un-sold). The SCA threw a hissy fit and came up with tons of reasons why we couldn't do this. We later found out the reason why she didnt want this (we overheard this at ABQ and La Junta) was because she wanted a big bedroom for herself and her own private toilet for the trip. She went as far as to talk to the station agent in La Junta and have her block out "A" for herself all the way into Chicago. The SCA from the other sleeper did the same thing in La Junta to block off "B" in our car all the way to Chicago. BTW, again with some name dropping (I hate to do it), I was able to secure Roomette 2 for my use for the two nights.

"10PM CUT-OFF FOR BEDS" - I was on the City of New Orleans a few years ago and had a very bad sleeping car attendant who was surly... and got on the PA right out of Chicago and shouted that if you wanted your bed made up to pull out your call button before 10PM or she WASNT going to make it up for you. I hate using the call buttons... and saw her on my way to dinner... and said that anytime she wanted to make up my bedroom it was fine. She barked at me that I should go back and pull the button. Okay. She then went for her own dinner from like 8:30-9:45pm (yes, over an hour for sure)... I went to bed around 10:15PM but was awoken around 10:45PM with a comotion going on in the next bedroom. A very elderly couple was trying to get her to put the bed down, but she flat out refused because it was after 10PM. The point was... she was up already... and the couple was near 90 and probably couldnt do it themselves.  I finally gave in and did it for them.

"SSL CLOSING FOR QUICK TURN" - Some crews like to make up the fact the train is making a quick turn in Chicago Union Station and will use that as an excuse for closing the Sightseer Lounge car early. As far as I know, the only long distance trains that make a same-day turn in Chicago are the Cardinal, Capitol Limited, and Lake Shore Limited... and the City of New Orleans into the Texas Eagle and vice-versa. Regardless, I have had crews on the California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Empire Builder claim the train is going out in a couple of hours to (insert your destination) and so they have to close the SSL at a stop or two outside of Chicago. I can understand closing the lower level to count stock, etc but leave the upper level open into Chicago if you want to stay in there. Don't lie and say the car is going out to another city somewhere. #4, #6, #8 all go to the yards for servicing coming into Chicago... they dont go out to New York that night (normally).


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## sechs (Mar 27, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> That was the case when gold and silver was used, but today there is little intrinsic value in coins. That being said, it's true that the ratio of cost to value of a coin is much greater than currency. But not enough to make it a commodity.


US coins have value that is inherent in the fact that they were coined by order of Congress. That's in the Consitution. The content of the coin is irrelevant to its value; this is why dollar coins are worth more than four times as much the metal in it, and the $50 Gold Eagle is made with gold currently worth many times its value.
Notes are not "money" in the strictest sense. They are a representation of "real money," and are, in fact, obligations of the Federal Reserve Banks. Notes have value because they are backed by collateral held by the Reserve Banks. They are money in the looser sense only because the Treasury will exchange them for "real money":

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411



> I don't get the last part of your comment. Yes, that is the law of the United States. We are talking about using US coins on a US train (arguably to pay a PUBLIC debt, as this is a Federally operated program). We're not talking about anyone elses or any other kind of money. Nickles, dimes and pennies for the Cafe car is legal tender. Period.


I don't think that you understand the law. The the law states that US currency is valid and foreign currency is not. It is not making a statement on whether US coins or notes are legal tender, let alone that anybody *has* to accept them. Those subjects are covered elsewhere.


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## sechs (Mar 27, 2012)

rtabern said:


> "BLOCKING DELUXE ROOMS FOR SCA" - This was from the Southwest Chief in March 2011... I was traveling on a 10-day loop around the country with my friend Mike. We were in "Bedroom C" on a pretty empty Southwest Chief #4. Out of LAX, it was discovered that the top bunk wouldn't latch -- meaning the top bed couldn't be used because it could fold up against the wall if you hit a bump. The SCA wanted us to move to "Bedroom A" (which was unsold all the way to Chicago). We didn't want to do this because Bedroom A is a little smaller... and didnt see the point of being stuck in a smaller bedroom for the next 2 days just because of a bad bed. I suggested how about just letting us keep "C"... and I'd just go in and sleep in "A" during the night (if it remained un-sold). The SCA threw a hissy fit and came up with tons of reasons why we couldn't do this. We later found out the reason why she didnt want this (we overheard this at ABQ and La Junta) was because she wanted a big bedroom for herself and her own private toilet for the trip. She went as far as to talk to the station agent in La Junta and have her block out "A" for herself all the way into Chicago. The SCA from the other sleeper did the same thing in La Junta to block off "B" in our car all the way to Chicago. BTW, again with some name dropping (I hate to do it), I was able to secure Roomette 2 for my use for the two nights


I think that I may have run into the same SCAs on my room reassignment debacle. Both women took up residence in a bedroom.
It was nice, however, that I could grab supplies stored in room one whenever.


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## rtabern (Mar 28, 2012)

sechs said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > "BLOCKING DELUXE ROOMS FOR SCA" - This was from the Southwest Chief in March 2011... I was traveling on a 10-day loop around the country with my friend Mike. We were in "Bedroom C" on a pretty empty Southwest Chief #4. Out of LAX, it was discovered that the top bunk wouldn't latch -- meaning the top bed couldn't be used because it could fold up against the wall if you hit a bump. The SCA wanted us to move to "Bedroom A" (which was unsold all the way to Chicago). We didn't want to do this because Bedroom A is a little smaller... and didnt see the point of being stuck in a smaller bedroom for the next 2 days just because of a bad bed. I suggested how about just letting us keep "C"... and I'd just go in and sleep in "A" during the night (if it remained un-sold). The SCA threw a hissy fit and came up with tons of reasons why we couldn't do this. We later found out the reason why she didnt want this (we overheard this at ABQ and La Junta) was because she wanted a big bedroom for herself and her own private toilet for the trip. She went as far as to talk to the station agent in La Junta and have her block out "A" for herself all the way into Chicago. The SCA from the other sleeper did the same thing in La Junta to block off "B" in our car all the way to Chicago. BTW, again with some name dropping (I hate to do it), I was able to secure Roomette 2 for my use for the two nights
> ...


Was one young (in her 20's) with black/brown hair and the other a little older?

I can understand a SCA wanting a deluxe bedroom, but I have serious problems with them blocking out rooms... in this case 2 ROOMS... at La Junta all the way into Chicago. I mean what if someone who gets on in western Kansas wants to upgrade to a bedroom? Amtrak is losing hundreds of dollars... times every 2 weeks these ladies go out. And yes, I did report them to Customer Relations.


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## rrdude (Mar 28, 2012)

rtabern said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > rtabern said:
> ...


There is NOT A GD thing wrong with "dropping names" when the situation warrants it. Bozos who go off on some power trip about pix, or blocking rooms, or making up all kind of weird rules need to be called to the carpet for their actions.

And, (I know I am preaching to the choir here) employees who make your trip a delight, should also similarly

be recognized.

I applaud your actions.


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## sechs (Mar 28, 2012)

rtabern said:


> Was one young (in her 20's) with black/brown hair and the other a little older?


I cannot honestly remember, because I barely saw either of them, as they spent quality time in the diner and in their rooms.


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## rtabern (Mar 29, 2012)

rrdude said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > sechs said:
> ...


My biggest beef was the guy in the suit at New York-Penn Station who wasn't wearing an Amtrak ID, yet kept referring to Penn Station as "his station" and telling me I couldn't take pictures. Yes, he was actually one of the station superintendents, but as far as I knew... he could have been just a crackpot person on a power trip who didnt work for Amtrak at all. As far as I know from several friends who work at Amtrak, employees are required to wear their ID while on duty (and sometimes even off duty while on company property)... and this guy was for sure on duty and was trying to act in an official capacity. I also believe it's a regulation that an employee must provide their name if asked by a paid passenger.


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 29, 2012)

rtabern said:


> My biggest beef was the guy in the suit at New York-Penn Station who wasn't wearing an Amtrak ID, yet kept referring to Penn Station as "his station" and telling me I couldn't take pictures. Yes, he was actually one of the station superintendents, but as far as I knew... he could have been just a crackpot person on a power trip who didnt work for Amtrak at all. As far as I know from several friends who work at Amtrak, employees are required to wear their ID while on duty (and sometimes even off duty while on company property)... and this guy was for sure on duty and was trying to act in an official capacity. I also believe it's a regulation that an employee must provide their name if asked by a paid passenger.


Lack of visible ID aside, what is the official Amtrak/NJT/LIRR/NYPD policy as far as photography inside NY Penn station is concerned? Are visitors to the station allowed to take pictures for personal use? Are ticketed passengers allowed? Are there any forbidden areas where photography is not allowed? I know photography at the huge concourse in Grand Central has no issues, since it is more of a tourist hotspot than a transit location anyways, but no idea what's the scene at NYPenn.


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## guest employee (Mar 29, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > My biggest beef was the guy in the suit at New York-Penn Station who wasn't wearing an Amtrak ID, yet kept referring to Penn Station as "his station" and telling me I couldn't take pictures. Yes, he was actually one of the station superintendents, but as far as I knew... he could have been just a crackpot person on a power trip who didnt work for Amtrak at all. As far as I know from several friends who work at Amtrak, employees are required to wear their ID while on duty (and sometimes even off duty while on company property)... and this guy was for sure on duty and was trying to act in an official capacity. I also believe it's a regulation that an employee must provide their name if asked by a paid passenger.
> ...


Amtrak's photo policy is that photography is allowed in ANY area that is accessible to the public. At most, you might be asked by a crew member or Amtrak Police about what the nature of your photography. And any Amtrak employee is required to wear their company ID any time they are on company property REGARDLESS of whether they are on duty or not, so if you see someone who claims to work for the company and does not have their ID displayed, feel free to call the local police!


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## Linda T (Mar 29, 2012)

Tumbleweed said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the only way to handle that situation is to give him the extra $1 you had put in the tip tray and when you received the two quarters back in change, put them in the tip tray. :giggle:
> ...


There should be a like function on this forum, there are many times that a like button is all that's needed to respond. :giggle:


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2012)

rtabern said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > rtabern said:
> ...


You've just reminded me of the story someone told on here about the "conductor" on the Texas Eagle who was apparently one of the more harmless "guests" at a local asylum. He had a complete uniform and everything...and it was only the "regulars" who knew something was amiss when he went through collecting tickets at an odd time.


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## AlanB (Mar 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> You've just reminded me of the story someone told on here about the "conductor" on the Texas Eagle who was apparently one of the more harmless "guests" at a local asylum. He had a complete uniform and everything...and it was only the "regulars" who knew something was amiss when he went through collecting tickets at an odd time.


I haven't heard that story; but up in NY City we have a guy who likes to drive subway trains, despite the fact that he's not an MTA employee. He once showed up an took an A train out of 207th Street yard making all the stops down the west side of Manhattan like a real pro. He only got caught because he didn't properly handle a grade timing signal which ripped out his air. And when he didn't know how to reset things, the dispatcher realized that he had a problem.


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## TimePeace (Mar 29, 2012)

Any outsider reading this thread could not possibly conclude anything other than this:

Amtrak sucks.

Whine on, folks


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## Linda T (Mar 30, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> Any outsider reading this thread could not possibly conclude anything other than this:
> 
> Amtrak sucks.
> 
> Whine on, folks


I love all the talk about the Texas Eagle's crew, now I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of service I get from CHI to SAS in my roomette! :excl: And then Polly... what can I say. :giggle: This will be an adventure for sure. I'm so gonna make notes and report back at the end of four weeks.


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## Anderson (Mar 30, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > You've just reminded me of the story someone told on here about the "conductor" on the Texas Eagle who was apparently one of the more harmless "guests" at a local asylum. He had a complete uniform and everything...and it was only the "regulars" who knew something was amiss when he went through collecting tickets at an odd time.
> ...


I hadn't heard that story, but it amused me to no end (and really made my evening). Just wondering, but how far _did _he get (and how did he get control of the train in the first place)?

I think it was jimhudson who reported the Eagle story...IIRC, when the men in white showed up to "collect" him, the OBS was equivocal as to whether he was being taken back home or to a new job at 50 Mass.


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## white rabbitt (Mar 30, 2012)

linda t

i hope i have just as good of a trip on the texas eagle as u have

and the sca are all pleasent and charming and the trip is a joyful one


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I completely agree families need to seat together but when the train is running almost 50% empty all the way (don't the OBS staff know the number of passengers reserved on a particular run from their manifests? Or is it a company policy too to not use brains and figure out approximate loads from the manifests?) what great sense does it make to bundle all single passengers in one half of the coach and run the other half *empty* all the way? Of course there is a simple solution to this issue- come out of primitive stone age system and give seat numbers while booking a ticket like the rest of the world does. How difficult is that?
> ...


They should be able to figure out how many probable extra tickets will be sold after departure. And why can't they have a manifest broken down by destination? A sorted manifest shouldn't be difficult for a computer to do. Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.


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## Trogdor (Mar 30, 2012)

Who said the manifest doesn't indicate destination. The only claim was that Alan "wasn't sure" not that it couldn't.


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## Linda T (Mar 30, 2012)

wabbitt said:


> linda t
> 
> i hope i have just as good of a trip on the texas eagle as u have
> 
> and the sca are all pleasent and charming and the trip is a joyful one


Thanks! I'm kinda looking for adventure this time, to be honest. 

The worst SCA I've ever had was on the SB CS. It wasn't so much a rule for us, but for him. When it came time to work he was to disappear where no one could find him. A roomette lady and I tried to hunt him down to prepare our beds but without success -- the dining car staff informed us that he goes off to a "private place" to eat sometimes. We both just retired to our rooms and waited. He finally came and apologized. At that time I didn't know to keep a notebook so I didn't record his name, but he taught me a lesson to always carry a pad and pencil to write down both the good and the bad.

My last long distance trip was my big one, and it went amazingly well. We were on the second #51 to start running again after the Indy bridge was repaired. Our SWC was the first to go through Raton Pass -- the previous day's train was bussed due to flooding. They managed to hold the CS for us, though we got into LAX and it was a sprint. And the #6 we were on was the day AFTER it hit the irrigation system. Yeah, I consider it my turn to have a story, but I hope not for the sake of the other passengers and crew. Though admittedly our shortest trip to Richmond was interrupted by Hurricane Irene, even the airport was closed!


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 30, 2012)

Amtrak DOES suck. Much less so then any other option. But it does suck.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Mar 30, 2012)

The lesser of 3 evils ?


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## jebr (Mar 30, 2012)

Well, four. Either I go through the airport (and deal with the TSA and security theatre, while paying through the nose to be treated like slightly-above-animal status at times), drive (with gas prices these days, along with having to stop every few hours to fill up with gas, eat, and if it's a really long trip pay for a hotel room), take the bus (cheapest, but still not terribly comfortable, and will probably have the strangest people), or train (which I haven't taken the Amtrak yet, but will next weekend).


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 30, 2012)

jebr said:


> Well, four. Either I go through the airport (and deal with the TSA and security theatre, while paying through the nose to be treated like slightly-above-animal status at times), drive (with gas prices these days, along with having to stop every few hours to fill up with gas, eat, and if it's a really long trip pay for a hotel room), take the bus (cheapest, but still not terribly comfortable, and will probably have the strangest people), or train (which I haven't taken the Amtrak yet, but will next weekend).


Just to add more to it, Amtrak _per se_ does not suck. It is clean, comfortable, nice amenities and travels well, if there is something that sucks, it's the *on-board staff (*not all, but some of them). Someone out there in Washington ought to know how the guys whom they pay every month are the ones causing maximum PR damage to the company's image. Agreed all organizations have rotten apples in the basket, but for reasons unknown to me, Amtrak seems to have many more rotten apples compared as a percentage of total employees that interact directly with paying customers. I have come across rude/unhelpful flight attendants on planes and drivers on buses too, but somehow the behavior of some of the Amtrak staff that I have encountered sticks out like a sore thumb in my memories.

Coming to what mode of transport is better or worse, there is no single answer. What I do is this-

If I need to reach somewhere quick and reliably on-time, I take a flight. I don't find TSA theater annoying. I am just indifferent to it.

If I want to relax and enjoy the journey, I take Amtrak.

If the distance to go is under 300 miles and the weather is nice, I hit the road and drive it out (Having a car that gives 40 mpg helps in today's gas prices!)

If there is cheap clean bus service such as Megabus and Boltbus, I take the bus (I would rather stay at home than take the Greyhound)

Simple.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 30, 2012)

jebr said:


> drive (with gas prices these days, along with having to stop every few hours to fill up with gas, eat,


and use the restroom.

And the traffic in some places makes driving very stressful.


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## Donctor (Mar 30, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Amtrak DOES suck. Much less so then any other option. But it does suck.


It is what it is. The important part is that it has been improving.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 30, 2012)

Here's one, I'm not sure who made this rule.

We arrived at NYP several hours before train time. (We were taking a Northeast Regional down to Baltimore.) I had a roller suitcase, and didn't want to be schlepping it all over Manhattan that afternoon, so first we went into the Club Acela, where the attendant recommended that we not store the bag there for more than a short time, because the baggage area wasn't secure. That made sense, so we got into line at the baggage area, and it occurred to me that I might be able to check the bag. After all, the Silver Star, the Crescent, and the Silver Meteor were going to doing that trip, and our train was going to arrive after all three of them, I could check the bag, save myself the $4.00 bag storage fee, and not have to deal with the bag on the train.

No such luck, the baggage agent was quite definite that the baggage cars were only for people riding on that particular train. This seems odd to me, as just a couple of months ago, I checked a bag from Baltimore to Boston on #66, yet I didn't ride up until the next day, and on a completely different train. A few years ago, I checked 3 bags through from Baltimore to Havre, MT three whole days before I actually left.

Maybe there's a difference between checking long-distance bags and bags to Boston and checking them on the NYP-WAS part of the northeast corridor. Or maybe the baggage clerk just didn't want to bother with something unusual. Anyway, I paid the $4.00 for the baggage storage, and also a tip for the red cap, who got us down to find a seat well before the cattle line started. But I sure miss having baggage car service for northeast corridor trains, like they used to have.


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## Donctor (Mar 30, 2012)

MARC Rider said:


> No such luck, the baggage agent was quite definite that the baggage cars were only for people riding on that particular train.


The baggage agent should take that up with the baggagemen who have loaded/unloaded my PHL-NYP and WAS-NWK bags time after time.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 30, 2012)

I disagree strongly, donctor.


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## rtabern (Mar 30, 2012)

I wish some of the Amtrak crews would have more of the attitude of the Canadian VIA crews... but I think it's partially a cultural thing... with Canadians often being more friendly than Americans (It's ok... I'll admit it after a recent trip from Halifax to Prince Rupert on VIA)... OR maybe it's how VIA trains its workers and how they manage things.

Need examples?

Let's look at the dining car staff and their attitude on the Canadian. At breakfast one morning, I ordered the blueberry pancakes and made the comment how delicious the potato pancakes also looked (one of the other entree selections). The server asked if I'd like to sample one... and I said YES. He came back with a full plate of them!! The next morning I asked for a second helping of toast (yes, real toast on a train!) and they were more than happy to obliege. Another morning of the trip my friend who I was traveling with was asked if he'd like bacon, ham, or sausage... he jokingly said all of them... and they actually did it!! NONE of this would happen on Amtrak. I can understand Amtrak being very careful that a person only gets 1 meal in the sleeper, etc to prevent fraud... but seriously... if someone wanted a second baked potato... would that kill them?? It costs like 69 cents. And if I had a second person in my sleeper anyway they would have to give up the potato anyway.

Another example was on "The Skeena" between Jasper and Prince Rupert... the lunch was a bag lunch of a turkey or beef sandwich. That day I wasn't feeling either selection and said I'd pass... and just plan to eat the leftover bagels and danishes in the Park Car. The food service workers actually came back to see if I was "doing okay" and if I changed my mind. Again, you'd never have that personal service on Amtrak (except maybe Acela FC).

Another example was the talks and everything the VIA equivilents of the LSAs did. They were actually enthusiastic about doing narration and explaining things -- from talking about lobster traps on the Ocean... to doing beer and wine tastings and everything... you could tell they were happy to be doing their jobs and enjoying their work. While I have had some good attendants who did wine tastings on the Coast Starlight (Jane, George, etc)... and some good conductors and Trails & Rails people who narrated... most of the attitudes arent as good on Amtrak as VIA. Last March, I actually had attendants on the Empire Builder who said "ok, we have 15 minutes for the wine tasting, so drink up" and they poured all 4 glasses of wine, threw them at you, and didnt say anything about the wine or cheese.

No, Amtrak does not "suck"... I have a lot of friends who work for Amtrak and are hard working and are good people who truely care about passengers first. This especially shown through on January 1st where crews worked their butt off on the Empire Builder to arrange for the surprise proposal of my fiancee in the dining car between Chicago and Milwaukee... but the efforts of the "good guys" are probably contained to a degree by the on-board crews esp who don't care that much... much like any other business in America. Hopefully the lazy, incopotent folks can be weeded out one by one.


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## NY Penn (Mar 30, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I hadn't heard that story, but it amused me to no end (and really made my evening). Just wondering, but how far _did _he get (and how did he get control of the train in the first place)?


He got control by simply opening the cab (I think he had a key) and departing when the dispatcher set the switches.

The version I heard is that he got almost a full round-trip from 207 St to Lefferts Boulevard, and that he was tripped by the signal at 180-something St.

That would be around two hours of time on the train.


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## white rabbitt (Mar 30, 2012)

rtabern said:


> I wish some of the Amtrak crews would have more of the attitude of the Canadian VIA crews... but I think it's partially a cultural thing... with Canadians often being more friendly than Americans (It's ok... I'll admit it after a recent trip from Halifax to Prince Rupert on VIA)... OR maybe it's how VIA trains its workers and how they manage things.
> 
> Need examples?
> 
> ...


rtabern amen truer words were never spoken


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## mulveyr (Mar 30, 2012)

MARC Rider said:


> Maybe there's a difference between checking long-distance bags and bags to Boston and checking them on the NYP-WAS part of the northeast corridor. Or maybe the baggage clerk just didn't want to bother with something unusual. Anyway, I paid the $4.00 for the baggage storage, and also a tip for the red cap, who got us down to find a seat well before the cattle line started. But I sure miss having baggage car service for northeast corridor trains, like they used to have.


I've taken Empire Service trains ( which have no baggage cars ) while my bike took earlier or later LSL trains. The stations were always more than happy to take the bike in, at least one case, two days ahead of my trip.


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## saxman (Mar 30, 2012)

For every rude Amtrak employee I've come across, I bet I can find two more very exceptional employees. It's just the nature of the service industry. You're going to have bad workers. We all have our bad days sometimes.

I've mentioned this guy before, so some of you have probably read about him. It was to the last AU Gathering in Seattle when I was on the Empire Builder inbound. About 30 minutes prior to our arrival, the coach car attendent came on and instructed everyone to start cleaning up and making sure they had everything packed. He also asked everyone to put their seat backs and tray tables up. Okay, no big deal. I always help out the crew and leave with my seat backs up and tray table up before I get off. But it's 30 minutes prior to arrival, I have plenty of time. I have all my bags packed, but I still like having my timetable out, so I had that out on the table, and my seat back, back. I didn't want to sit with my back straight up for 30 minutes either.

Well 5 or 10 minutes go by, and the crew member comes by and reminds me that I need to clean up. I give him the nod and say I got it. Another 5 minutes go by, and I still haven't done anything and he walks by again and actually tells me I need to clean up. He physically takes my timetable off the table and folds it for me, then helps me move my seat up. As soon as he walks off, I fold it down again.  He sees me again and scolds me. I tell him I'm not on an airliner. It was one of those incidents where I wished I had pushed things further, but I'm not usually a jerk like that. I'm hoping to come across him again, now that I have his bosses name in my cell phone.


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## rtabern (Mar 30, 2012)

saxman said:


> For every rude Amtrak employee I've come across, I bet I can find two more very exceptional employees. It's just the nature of the service industry. You're going to have bad workers. We all have our bad days sometimes.
> 
> I've mentioned this guy before, so some of you have probably read about him. It was to the last AU Gathering in Seattle when I was on the Empire Builder inbound. About 30 minutes prior to our arrival, the coach car attendent came on and instructed everyone to start cleaning up and making sure they had everything packed. He also asked everyone to put their seat backs and tray tables up. Okay, no big deal. I always help out the crew and leave with my seat backs up and tray table up before I get off. But it's 30 minutes prior to arrival, I have plenty of time. I have all my bags packed, but I still like having my timetable out, so I had that out on the table, and my seat back, back. I didn't want to sit with my back straight up for 30 minutes either.
> 
> Well 5 or 10 minutes go by, and the crew member comes by and reminds me that I need to clean up. I give him the nod and say I got it. Another 5 minutes go by, and I still haven't done anything and he walks by again and actually tells me I need to clean up. He physically takes my timetable off the table and folds it for me, then helps me move my seat up. As soon as he walks off, I fold it down again.  He sees me again and scolds me. I tell him I'm not on an airliner. It was one of those incidents where I wished I had pushed things further, but I'm not usually a jerk like that. I'm hoping to come across him again, now that I have his bosses name in my cell phone.


WOW, tray tables up 30 minutes before arrival?? NICE!! That is worse than planes (no offense there! LOL)

It's sorta like the lounge car thing I mentioned earlier -- maybe I want to ride in the upper level of the lounge car all the way into Chicago Union Station. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL IF THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO DO??? Besides attendants telling me they have to get everyone out of the upper level of the lounge car because the train is making a "quick turn" (when it's not)... other attendants have told me they kick everyone out of the upper level of the Sightseer Lounge so you can "go back to your seat and get everything organized before our arrival into Chicago in 30 minutes". Well, its a nice gesture, but should be a SUGGESTION not a REQUIREMENT. A lot of the time I travel (except for a couple big trips a year) are day trips down to Lincoln, IL or Galesburg, IL... I might have a small bag with me... if that. I don't need 30 minutes to "get everything organized"... and need to go back to my seat at Princeton or Naperville. I understand I might get "trapped" by the crowd getting off and be stuck at the back of the exit line... but unless I'm making a tight connection, I don't care... leave me alone in the SSL.


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## rtabern (Mar 30, 2012)

rtabern said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > For every rude Amtrak employee I've come across, I bet I can find two more very exceptional employees. It's just the nature of the service industry. You're going to have bad workers. We all have our bad days sometimes.
> ...


The biggest "kick out" that got me irritated was with the Great Dome on the Cardinal. The male and female conductor from Indy kicked everyone out of #10031 about 20 minutes before coming into Chicago... when the directive from Washington DC said the car was supposed to be open all the way into CUS.


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2012)

That sucks. I was very happy that the eastbound crew let us stay all the way until we hit the bridge over the Potomac. Had a plane coming into National pass right over our heads at an insanely low altitude just as we were starting to pack up.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2012)

Guest said:


> Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.


BTW, the alleged ancient passenger information system used by Amtrak is not really that much more ancient than the ones used by most major airlines. Haven't heard people complaining about the ancient systems used by the airlines too much. I guess since it is a railroad it must be using 19th century computers..... Oh wait! :giggle:


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## leemell (Mar 31, 2012)

jis said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Even with Amtrak's ancient computer systems a simple sort and print is 100% possible. There is a lot of information that could be calculated from the passenger database that would be helpful to the attendants if presented correctly.
> ...


Just a little info, the SABRE reservation system was first written for American Airlines and put online in about 1964, in COBOL! This reservation system is still used and services a fairly large number of airlines (about 400) and a lot of other services. At its heart there are still original lines and sections of code. That makes this about a half century old. The Amtrak ARROW system is quite young by comparison being put online in the late 80's.


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 31, 2012)

leemell said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?


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## Phil S (Mar 31, 2012)

On #30 about a month ago, I asked the SCA why there was no ice out. "The person in DC running the Cap Limited has decided to enforce some Amtrak rule (that no one else seems to know about) that putting ice out is against health regs." I wrote down the name of the DC office person and can find it if anyone is interested. I went to the lounge car, got a big glass full of ice. A few minutes later the SCA shows up with a whole bucket full of ice -- just for me, says "If you don't use it all, just put it out for the others. I can't but you can."

I had gotten to CHI on the CZ in which the sleeper actually had an ice box in the cabinet under where the coffee and juice are put out. The SCA said very few sleepers had them, but so much for it being Amtrak policy.


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2012)

That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.


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## Phil S (Mar 31, 2012)

Ryan said:


> That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.


So some SCAs would leave the built-in ice box empty? It really works well! Ice lasted at least twice as long as in the styrofoam coolers.Hell, I'll be happy to keep it filled myself as long as I can get ice in the lounge car.FWIW, I routinely clean the bathrooms I use, and pack down the towel trash so there's room for more. And it seems to pay off in better behavior by my fellow sleeper passengers for the whole trip.

It's just personal philosophy but I think rules should make sense and then be enforced. The ones that cant be enforced (or never made any sense in the first place) should be dropped. Prosecutorial discretion is not something I favor (or trust).

Looking foward to my next trip. A simple one Charlottesville to Portland on the EB. May 13. Please, no flooding at Devil's Lake this year?


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 31, 2012)

it's supposed to be against FDA(food and drug admin) rules to leave ice out in the open and pax just help themselves.


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## VentureForth (Mar 31, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


My understanding is that it does, but Amtrak chooses not to use that capability.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 31, 2012)

> So some SCAs would leave the built-in ice box empty? It really works well!


Except for the food poisoning. The ice thing is a health safety issue. It's why you no longer see ice machines in motels that have you scoop ice out of a freezer, but instead the ice falls directly into your bucket. Sure if people would wash their hands, or at least not leave the scoop sitting in the ice, but that's too much to hope. Many Sleeping Car Attendants (love that title, must use it more often) ignore the ice rules, but hey, they probably don't believe in the germ theory of disease.

Me, I'm careful to sanitize any ice I use on the train. I normally do this with gin. Can't be too careful.



> Looking foward to my next trip. A simple one Charlottesville to Portland on the EB. May 13. Please, no flooding at Devil's Lake this year?


No flooding in North Dakota this year. Drought instead. You'll probably still have slow orders near Church's Ferry, but I wouldn't be surprised if Devils Lake retreats this year.


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## RRUserious (Apr 1, 2012)

> But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years.


Um, yes airline systems can do it. When they want to. It isn't universal. Kind of depends on where you are going and who is taking you. You can say you've never been kept from seating during booking, but then obviously you haven't flown ever flight on every airline. Duh. I'm just telling you it might be a custom, but it isn't mandatory for the airline.


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## PeeweeTM (Apr 1, 2012)

@ OP:

Amtrak Service Standards Manual No. 6 Chapter 8 / Section 2 / J2 (Page 8/194 (or 594) states:

Forms of Payment: "Amtrak accepts US currency on all trains."

Sunny greetings from Rotterdam,

Peter


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## OBS (Apr 1, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > leemell said:
> ...


It was tried for awhile with the introduction of Acela First Class svc. The attendants were constantly in conflict with passengers who "did not want to sit there" in their assigned seat. It was a constant "I'll just sit here instead". The problem with assigning seats in advance with long haul trains, is that properly managed (by conductor) LD trains have coaches boarded by destination, ie filling coaches based on quantities and their destination. Since this is a fluid quantity, it is not ideally done by seat assignment. Also off season trains will often have a coach added or deopped from consist on daily basis due to ridership. You can't sell assign seats in 3 coaches and then come departure date, drop a coach because the ridership does not exceed 2 coaches. It is not as simple a concept as an airplane where everyone boards at one location and through one door and deplanes the same way.


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## The Davy Crockett (Apr 1, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Me, I'm careful to sanitize any ice I use on the train. I normally do this with gin. Can't be too careful.


I have always heard that whisky does a better job of this. :lol:


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## Big Iron (Apr 1, 2012)

Ryan said:


> That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.


Inconsistency is certainly true, the consistency in the inconsistency for me has been that ice is left out in viewliners and not in the superliners. Likely beause the viewliner has the small sink next to the coffee pot.


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## printman2000 (Apr 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?


There are many, many threads in this forum on why assigning coach seats on LD trains would not work very well.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:discuss.amtraktrains.com+assigned+seats&ie=UTF-8


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## oldtimer (Apr 1, 2012)

Big Iron said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > That's been a rule for a while now. It's never been enforced evenly, every attendant has their way of doing things.
> ...


Many Amtrak employees say that with Amtrak the only thing you can count on is the inconsistency!

:help: hboy: :giggle:


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## Donctor (Apr 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?


Amtrak could assign seats. They choose not to. What does that have to do with their computer system?


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## EMDF9A (Apr 1, 2012)

On the ice issue:

The USDA, which governs the foodservice operation of AMTRAK, does indeed prohibit the open distribution of ice by non-foodservice staff. This is because this is a wonderful medium to spread disease. The ice scoop must be stored outside the container in a clean closed container. Only the designated ice scoop can be used to get ice (How many times have you dipped your class into ice?) This is very unsanitary. Folks grabbing the ice scoop may not have clean hands. Ice can only be transported in specific containers designated for ice only and cleaned on a regular basis. There are a myriad of issues.

That nasty little bug, known as norovirus THRIVES in a cold environment like ice. And Noro cant be killed with the standard quat sdanitizer. It must be killed with chlorine. It can live on a surface for up to 72 hours.

Yes, I like having ice in the sleepers. I like staying healthy a little bit more.

David, CDM, RD, CFSP.

Seattle


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## guest employee (Apr 1, 2012)

phil-s said:


> On #30 about a month ago, I asked the SCA why there was no ice out. "The person in DC running the Cap Limited has decided to enforce some Amtrak rule (that no one else seems to know about) that putting ice out is against health regs." I wrote down the name of the DC office person and can find it if anyone is interested. I went to the lounge car, got a big glass full of ice. A few minutes later the SCA shows up with a whole bucket full of ice -- just for me, says "If you don't use it all, just put it out for the others. I can't but you can."
> 
> I had gotten to CHI on the CZ in which the sleeper actually had an ice box in the cabinet under where the coffee and juice are put out. The SCA said very few sleepers had them, but so much for it being Amtrak policy.


Amtrak is bound by FDA rules. FDA says we cannot leave ice out for passengers to help themselves. Any TA or SA who does so is doing it at the risk of possibly losing their job for violation of policy and Federal foodhandling guidelines.


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## guest (Apr 1, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years. This is one part of Amtrak that I have never really understood- why do they love being in stone age and having an attendant treat passengers like kindergarten children watching over them, assigning seats. Why can't American trains assign fixed seats when every other country worth its name in the world does it? Oh wait, I think I got the answer.. the we-Americans-won't-do-what-the-whole-world-does mentality at work?
> ...


One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?


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## printman2000 (Apr 1, 2012)

guest said:


> One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?


Topic has been discussed into the ground. Read the other threads.

Just because Europe does it different does not make it better.


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## RRUserious (Apr 1, 2012)

I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business. The struggle for trains to survive in a hostile environment in America is bound to leave scars. So don't look for the rationality of a system that was always valued. We who love trains are lucky to have any experience without going abroad.


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## Ryan (Apr 1, 2012)

guest said:


> Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?


Yep, that's eggzatly it. Us Mericans are to stoopid. :wacko:


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## MattW (Apr 1, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > One could make the same argument in regard to sleeping car accommodations, and yet that doesn't make much sense either. Assignment at reservation is done throughout Europe (on long distance and premium trains) and seems to work perfectly well. Do Americans have some mental defect which prevents this?
> ...


But just because America doesn't do it, doesn't make it worse either.


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> > But still the Amtrak's system cannot (or does not want to) give out seat numbers at the time of booking tickets, while airlines across the world have been doing it since quite some years.
> 
> 
> Um, yes airline systems can do it. When they want to. It isn't universal. Kind of depends on where you are going and who is taking you. You can say you've never been kept from seating during booking, but then obviously you haven't flown ever flight on every airline. Duh. I'm just telling you it might be a custom, but it isn't mandatory for the airline.


I actually prefer that Amtrak doesn't do this. Though I'm almost always traveling alone, I know that there is plenty of room for two sorts of headaches with at-booking assignment:

1) If a family books relatively late in the process, it might be impossible to seat them together. Not that this doesn't happen now (moreson on Regionals than on LD trains), but it would likely increase the chances as the "available" seats end up broken up...and you can't tell me that some folks won't be a bit snippier about moving from "their" reserved seat than they are now.

2) As things stand, the OBS can get a list at the start of a trip and know, within a few people, how many riders will be going to a given destination. Knowing this, they can space passengers out so they don't have to check every car at every stop. A computer assignment can very easily make for utter chaos on that front and eliminate any such efforts and/or result in passengers missing stops.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 2, 2012)

EMDF9A said:


> The USDA, which governs the foodservice operation of AMTRAK, does indeed prohibit the open distribution of ice by non-foodservice staff. This is because this is a wonderful medium to spread disease. The ice scoop must be stored outside the container in a clean closed container. Only the designated ice scoop can be used to get ice (How many times have you dipped your class into ice?) This is very unsanitary. Folks grabbing the ice scoop may not have clean hands. Ice can only be transported in specific containers designated for ice only and cleaned on a regular basis.


The funny thing is that food service staff are really no different than any other group of people. If you've ever worked in America's food service industry you'd know that sanitary conditions can vary wildly from location to location and employee to employee. Some employees will be safer than you. Others will be much more careless. Bureaucratic directives that ignore this rather simple reality don't make us any safer. Nor does the demand for fall-down ice machines. I've seen people shove nasty containers into and over the drop spout. How is that any better than using an ice scoop?

Then again, this directive apparently comes from the same regulatory agency can't seem to do squat to prevent American consumers from receiving potentially deadly spinach, tomatoes, lettuce, peppers, peanut butter, beef, chicken, eggs, etc. with e-coli, salmonella, listeria, botulism, etc.

Amtrak staff should absolutely be prevented from using unclean or malicious storage and handling methods, but beyond that it should be up to the consumer as to whether they're willing to accept the risks of self-service contamination. I feel the same way about providing a microwave or toaster oven.



printman2000 said:


> There are many, many threads in this forum on why assigning coach seats on LD trains would not work very well.


Trains all over the world have assigned seating. Even *Amtrak has assigned seating*. In the case of the sleepers they're assigned at booking. In the case of coach cars it's assigned at boarding; either by you or by the coach attendant. Once you are seated the first time that's your *assigned* seat for the rest of the trip. Once you realize that this is true, it becomes much more difficult to make blanket statements about what can and cannot work with assigned seating.

The one thing some people want to change is for Amtrak to allow the assigning of coach seats *at booking*. There is no technical reason I'm aware of that this could not be implemented. Would it be absolutely perfect? Of course not. Would it be a complete disaster? Not likely. But I suppose there would be a transition phase when people who don't like change would be surprised by something they're not familiar with. Or, in the case of New Yorkers, they might become needlessly belligerent and unruly toward the staff and fellow customers.



Anderson said:


> 1) If a family books relatively late in the process, it might be impossible to seat them together. Not that this doesn't happen now (moreson on Regionals than on LD trains), but it would likely increase the chances as the "available" seats end up broken up...and you can't tell me that some folks won't be a bit snippier about moving from "their" reserved seat than they are now.


On airlines they don't generally assign every last seat at booking. Some seats are left unassigned and can be used to for last-minute bookings by groups. One of the things that has surprised me about AU is how little understanding there seems to be for how trains work in other countries, or how other forms of transit work right here at home.



Anderson said:


> 2) As things stand, the OBS can get a list at the start of a trip and know, within a few people, how many riders will be going to a given destination. Knowing this, they can space passengers out so they don't have to check every car at every stop. A computer assignment can very easily make for utter chaos on that front and eliminate any such efforts and/or result in passengers missing stops.


*Utter chaos* simply from assigning seats at booking? You don't think that's a major overreaction?


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2012)

Texas,

Possibly, but only marginally so on a longer train. I hate to say it, but (especially if the speakers are out or the stop happens later at night) trying to round up folks for some of the earlier stops on the SB Meteor is likely a daunting task for the OBS if they're scattered throughout five coaches. You'd be in the same situation if you assigned seats at booking for them, though, if the computer didn't make an effort to fill cars in some sensible order. Also, when I'm referring to chaos, I'm not referring to the train breaking down in confusion...I'm referring to the fact that, as a rule, the Meteor staff at present (since I'm most familiar with LD coach on this route) can clump the Richmond folks and so forth together and get them all off in the same car, while with a computer they're likely to have them spread all over the place (or partly clumped, with later bookings thrown in here and there for good measure).

The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way. Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in _some_ fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.

Basically, if there's an irregular "bump" in demand (say that for some reason you have 20 "extra" people going to RMT), I think it makes more sense to let the OBS figure out how to handle moving that around as far as seating goes than to have a computer potentially put folks in the "wrong" car (say that overflow eventually goes to wherever there's space...if you do that, sooner or later a number of folks seated in the "wrong" coach for a destination is going to get overlooked by a combination of a bad speaker and staff not thinking of them being there). Part of this is me not trusting computers...but part of it is an honest gut feeling that the OBS has a better handle on it than a booking office computer is likely to.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 2, 2012)

Anderson said:


> The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way. Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in _some_ fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.


First of all, drop the talk about holiday regionals. Nobody, I repeat, *NOBODY* is suggesting that regional trains need assigned seating. Second, I have a flight later this year that goes A to B to C to D as IAH-DME-HKG-SIN. All in the same seat on the same aircraft, with some people getting on or off at each stop and others riding the whole route. Just like thousands of other flights with assigned seating have done for decades all over the world. Third, other passenger rail systems already provide assigned coach seating at booking without experiencing the "utter chaos" you envision, so why should Amtrak be uniquely incapable of performing this rather basic task?



Anderson said:


> Basically, if there's an irregular "bump" in demand (say that for some reason you have 20 "extra" people going to RMT), I think it makes more sense to let the OBS figure out how to handle moving that around as far as seating goes than to have a computer potentially put folks in the "wrong" car (say that overflow eventually goes to wherever there's space...if you do that, sooner or later a number of folks seated in the "wrong" coach for a destination is going to get overlooked by a combination of a bad speaker and staff not thinking of them being there).


You seem to be trying to "solve" the problem of faulty speakers and lazy staff by focusing entirely on the symptom instead of the root cause. There are lazy employees and faulty speakers on trains and planes all over the world, and yet it doesn't result in the wholesale abandonment of assigned seating. Is it true that there may need to be some additional planning in how seats are assigned and/or how disembarkation is handled? Absolutely. Is it true that these problems are insurmountable? Absolutely not.



Anderson said:


> Part of this is me not trusting computers...but part of it is an honest gut feeling that the OBS has a better handle on it than a booking office computer is likely to.


I don't know where your fear of computers comes from, but it would seem to be demonstrably erroneous. Computers have already been assigning seats and compartments across multiple cabins and cars all over the world for decades now. On board staff have been overriding those assignments when necessary for just as long. If the computer was the real issue then where are all the mini-disasters that should be happening over and over again every time there is a change in demand? It just doesn't add up.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 2, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Possibly, but only marginally so on a longer train. I hate to say it, but (especially if the speakers are out or the stop happens later at night) trying to round up folks for some of the earlier stops on the SB Meteor is likely a daunting task for the OBS if they're scattered throughout five coaches.


First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers *THAT* dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?



> The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way.


So you mean to say that train in other countries that have assigned seating only carry passengers from A to B? If you want to see how reserved seating works on trains, I suggest visiting the world's largest passenger train network- in India. Over 3000 (yes three thousand) trains with reserved seats and sleeping bunks, each train taking and dropping passengers at dozens, sometimes more than 50 stations along the route, four to six different classes of cars on the train, and yet things work smoothly without any of the "utter chaos" that some members here envision engulfing Amtrak trains if there is assigned seating. If a "third-world" country can make it work, can't "developed" America make it work on a system that's several orders of magnitude less complicated?



> Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in _some_ fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.


Again I say, look beyond Amtrak to more complicated rail systems. In India the express trains tend to be 24 cars long, and sometimes there is automatic "break-up" of passengers done by the reservation system while assigning seats, but most of the times, it doesn't even matter. When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?

More than anything else, I feel the reluctance is attributed more to the American custom of "We'll do it differently than the whole world, just because". Miles, gallons, Fahrenheit, no seat numbers in trains.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 2, 2012)

> First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers *THAT* dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. *Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching*". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?


Is it too difficult for you to understand that not everyone can hear/understand the announcements? Due to sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, poor acoustics, poor sound system, no sound system in a particular car, etc.


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## Ryan (Apr 2, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Are the American travelers *THAT* dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?


No, we're not that dumb.



> When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?


That's awesome. Too bad that isn't the case here in the US. Better to just call us dumb than understand the reality of the situation.
Edit to add: Not to mention, even when the platforms are long enough, Superliners don't have trainlined doors, so you would need a crewmember to open each door. Single level equipment still needs someone to operate the traps at low level platforms as well.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 2, 2012)

Ryan said:


> > When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?
> 
> 
> That's awesome. Too bad that isn't the case here in the US. Better to just call us dumb than understand the reality of the situation.


It's not like I do not understand the reality of the situation here in the US. How many stations on LD routes have the issue of having platforms that cannot accommodate entire train? From whatever I have traveled, I have seen all decently sized stations, even many of the small AmShacks have low-level platform (basically just a tiled surface raised a few inches above ground level) running across the length of the train. At stations where even this is not existing, do the passengers get off on the ground from only one or two cars? I haven't used any such station so no idea what is done, but what *can* be done with assigned seating is assigning seats (at booking) for passengers using such barebone stations in particular cars, say first car or last car whatever depending on what is the current "rule" about opening doors, and voila! problem solved. I know the reservation software in India does this, called "wayside quota". Although it is not because some doors don't open (they all open whenever you want to!), but just to simplify the task of assigning seats to folks getting off midway and getting on from midway stations. For example, when my grandma who lives in a small town outside Mumbai travels to and from the city in a particular train (train #12954), she always gets her seat assigned by the software in coach B-4. She does not have to do this manually, all she has to do is punch in her destination and the software assigns seat in that coach. It is a very complicated story as to what happens when all seats in a "quota" are filled up, but the point I was making is that is is do-able.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 2, 2012)

AmtrakBlue said:


> > First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers *THAT* dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. *Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching*". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?
> 
> 
> Is it too difficult for you to understand that not everyone can hear/understand the announcements? Due to sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, poor acoustics, poor sound system, no sound system in a particular car, etc.


Yes, it is indeed difficult for me to understand that only in the United States there are passengers who cannot hear/understand announcements because they would be sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, and cars with poor acoustics, poor sound system, or no sound system.


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## Ryan (Apr 2, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> At stations where even this is not existing, do the passengers get off on the ground from only one or two cars?


Even at stations where this does exist, passengers board/exit through a small handful of doors due to the lack of trainlined door controls and automatic traps.

I get that the computers can do it just as well as humans (95% of the time when things are operating "normally" and everything works). But humans have the unique ability to adapt to changing conditions, and passengers are a heck of a lot more flexible when they're not being diverted from a preassigned seat.

Yes, there is a big cultural difference.

(Warning, offtopic anecdote ahead)

There is a big difference between warships built for the US Navy and those built for other countries. Other countries have many automated systems (particularly in the area of Damage Control - firefighting, compartment isolation, etc). This works for us (because until recently), we had the notion that people were cheap and dependable, and those automated systems were expensive and quit working at the most inopportune of times (like when you needed them most). We've sort of figured out that the pay and benefits for these people costs a whole lot of money, and so efforts are underway to reduce crew sizes and depend more on the automated systems.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 2, 2012)

Me, I'd like assigned seats on long-distance trains. No doubt about it.

But *Texan Eagle *must have a much better experience in traveling coach than I, because assigned seats is somewhere about 20th on my list of things I'd like changed about the Amtrak long-distance coach experience. Compared to such issues as 1) poor temperature control, 2) filthy toilets, 3) inedible cafe food, 4) absurdly late trains, 5) passengers using electronic devices without headphones, etc., etc., getting a seat assigned by the coach attendant doesn't seem so bad. Once Amtrak fixes those other items, though, I fully agree that it should tackle assigned seating as part of ticketing.


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## VentureForth (Apr 2, 2012)

Now Now, Texas Eagle... In all fairness, on IR, you're not really assigned a berth or seat until the night before, are you?


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 2, 2012)

Ryan said:


> (Warning, offtopic anecdote ahead)
> 
> There is a big difference between warships built for the US Navy and those built for other countries. Other countries have many automated systems (particularly in the area of Damage Control - firefighting, compartment isolation, etc). This works for us (because until recently), we had the notion that people were cheap and dependable, and those automated systems were expensive and quit working at the most inopportune of times (like when you needed them most). We've sort of figured out that the pay and benefits for these people costs a whole lot of money, and so efforts are underway to reduce crew sizes and depend more on the automated systems.


This off-topic anecdote is very relevant. In fact it is in line with my suggestion about assigned seating. I am made to understand that as things stand today, human labour is very expensive in the US, for example when I got a dent in my care repaired last month, the highest cost in my bill was labour, charged at something like $47 per hour




so in such a situation, it makes me wonder why does Amtrak continue with its current style which is very human-resource intensive? If a bunch of things that are handled by human beings (kindergarten walk, seat assignment) is computerized thereby requiring less staff, for example one coach attendant opening/closing doors of three coaches instead of one for each coach, would it not help improving Amtrak's financial bottom lines? Now some may say that this would lead to layoffs and unemployment, but then you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to see Amtrak function as an employment source, you gotta give it the requisite funding. If you are gonna point out how Amtrak runs in losses, you shouldn't complain when it resorts to cost-saving tactics. (** "you" = the government)


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 2, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Now Now, Texas Eagle... In all fairness, on IR, you're not really assigned a berth or seat until the night before, are you?


Umm. says who? In all reserved classes except AC First Class, when you book your ticket (allowed up to 90 days before travel date), it comes with an assigned coach and seat number. See this sample ticket from my recent travel. The assigned coach and seat number is highlighted in red-






In AC First Class the seats are not assigned at booking because it is enclosed accommodation, similar to Amtrak's bedrooms, but sold as individual bunks. So once all the seats in the coach are booked, a human being intervenes to go through the profile (ticket number, age, gender) of booked passengers and room allocation is done keeping cultural sensibilities in mind, so for example, if there is a male and female passenger booked on same ticket number, they are assigned a two-passenger cabin. If there are two adults and two children seen on same ticket number, it is likely it is a family so they are assigned one of the four-passenger cabins. A single female passenger will never be assigned seat with a single male passenger in a two-passenger cabin etc. However remember AC First Class is more of a British legacy and contributes to less than 1% of the total number of reserved tickets sold in the country.


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## George Harris (Apr 2, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business.


Reality check needed. Reality check needed.


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## Phil S (Apr 2, 2012)

I'll write this tomorrow if I have time but the whole question of how the Amerixan RR system came to be different fom the French, German, and British, and the relevance of this for the future of american passenger trains deserves a separate toipic. I'll look forward to the discussion and ot learning a lot, Cheers.


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2012)

George Harris said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> > I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business.
> ...


Actually, in Europe, the government frequently forcibly took over an industry and banned the competition. Witness cases such as British Rail, British Steel, etc.


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## jebr (Apr 3, 2012)

As a relative outsider looking in (since I've traveled almost exclusively by intercity bus, with a little bit of commuter rail thrown in, and only booked Amtrak tickets), I feel like there's something to both approaches.

For user-assigned seats, there's the feeling of control over your seat. You chose your seat, you know where you're going to sit. You can book people together as need be, and be seated together without hassle. However, it comes at the (probable) cost of having people going to specific destinations spread out among the cars, and making it harder to make sure everyone gets off at the right stop.

The inverse is essentially true for having the conductor assign seats. People don't have any control and may not have their preferred seat, but everyone going to a specific destination can be grouped together and made sure that they get off at the right stop.

There seems to be an inherent problem with user-assigned seating on LD trains. From what it seems, the stops aren't terribly long (only a minute or two) and if the conductor doesn't know/notice who's getting off (since they're in a different car), someone may either sleep through the stop or may simply be grabbing their luggage and find that the train doors have already closed before they were able to actually get off.

Could this all be resolved? Definitely. A conductor could walk through all the coach cars, see who needs to disembark (or look at their manifest), and make sure those people are awake, and finally check the cars before disembarking (or telling them to have their luggage ready when disembarking.) What also may be better is to have everyone from each station able to pick any seat in a specific coach car (for example, anyone getting off in SLC could choose any seat in coach car 2, but could not choose any in coach car 1 or 3), eliminating most of the problems that seem to be addressed here in regards to passengers missing their station or unnecessary traffic in coach cars.

However, in order to do this, a person would have to accept being unable to print their ticket until X number of hours before boarding (much like with airlines) to make sure any last-minute changes in the cars (and thus changing seats) are noted. Thus, someone using eTicketing or printing from a Quik Trak/checking in at a staffed station could use this if they made sure to wait until then to print their ticket until the X number of hours beforehand (perhaps require eTicketing passengers to "check in" before leaving for the station if they already printed their ticket, or only allow people to print their ticket within that X number of hours in order to keep reserved seating. This restriction wouldn't be required for people using a true digital ticket, as they could check their seating with their ticket that they pull up on their app/web browser when they board.) This does mean currently that those boarding at non-staffed, non-Quik Trak stations cannot choose their own seats, but that restriction is eliminated with eTicketing (just require the limitations above for those wanting reserved/user-assigned seating).

All in all, it seems simple enough to resolve. However, either seating would have to be assigned for everyone by the system (which would have to be made clear to riders) or there would have to be a specific section set aside for "open seating" if a person didn't reserve a seat (or a mix of both, possibly). The limitations themselves are resolvable.

I should add, however, that I don't think it's necessary on most trains. Maybe on higher classes (or the Acela in general) to get rid of the boarding call/cattle call feel and to guarantee seating together at intermediate stations when the conductor doesn't assign/restrict seating him/herself, but it's a very low priority for me. A nicety, but not a necessity. Maybe my opinion will change once I'm in one for an extended length of time, but it seems like a minor part of the experience, especially on a LD train (where it seems as though the conductor assigns seating so that people from the same group are together, unlike what the Acela/NER sound like.)


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## George Harris (Apr 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > RRUserious said:
> ...


This act was, and particularly in the case of British Rail, done at the point of near or post financial collapse of the operation as a business. So, was this really the govenment taking over an operation for the benefit of the public or the govenment taking over an operation with the appearance of benefiting the public while in reality bailing out the people at risk of major financial loss, as in the bank bailouts that happened recently in the US?


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## Casinocim (Apr 3, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.



I had this same thing on my trip back in September. Our car was very empty with a few pairs of empty seats and several single seats. I finally moved up to the seats in front of me and was told I would have to move if they needed that seat, fine by me. I never did have to move, just glad I did move.


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## VentureForth (Apr 3, 2012)

This may not be a made up rule, but in my humble opinion, silly. When I was on the SWC or the Texas Eagle a while back, they closed the Cafe downstairs. That isn't unusual. But this time when they did, they actually closed the whole downstairs. I know that many folks like to play cards at the tables downstairs, and IIRC some of the lounges upstairs are half lounge, half tables. The conductor on this particular ride was quite adamant that no one was to go downstairs that he blocked the stairs with a trash box. I've been on several superliners overnight in the past and don't ever recall them keeping people from using the tables downstairs overnight. The Cafe is locked up pretty tight. If they are worried, a spot check every now and then would be prudent but in all honesty, more ilicit activity can take place by folks who sneak into a closed area than in an area that is always open.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 3, 2012)

Casinocim said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.
> ...


Whenever someone claims that improving Amtrak's image and service would cost a fortune I'm going to point them here. Single travelers are not the enemy Amtrak. Your own lazy and arrogant staff are the problem.


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## Shawn Ryu (Apr 3, 2012)

All businesses have bad employees. I find that Amtrak employees are generally helpful.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 3, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> All businesses have bad employees. I find that Amtrak employees are generally helpful.


Not all businesses have Amtrak's unique difficulties with planning, funding, and branding. Thus, I feel Amtrak would be wise to focus as much as possible on improving those aspects that don't cost a lot but do much to improve their image and perception.


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## AlanB (Apr 3, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> This may not be a made up rule, but in my humble opinion, silly. When I was on the SWC or the Texas Eagle a while back, they closed the Cafe downstairs. That isn't unusual. But this time when they did, they actually closed the whole downstairs. I know that many folks like to play cards at the tables downstairs, and IIRC some of the lounges upstairs are half lounge, half tables. The conductor on this particular ride was quite adamant that no one was to go downstairs that he blocked the stairs with a trash box. I've been on several superliners overnight in the past and don't ever recall them keeping people from using the tables downstairs overnight. The Cafe is locked up pretty tight. If they are worried, a spot check every now and then would be prudent but in all honesty, more ilicit activity can take place by folks who sneak into a closed area than in an area that is always open.


Well I heard that they're supposed to close things off when they're counting money, but otherwise normally there would and should be no reason to close off everything. However, I supposed that it is possible that perhaps a lock was broken on one of the cabinets so to try to avoid theft they closed things off totally.


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## AlanB (Apr 3, 2012)

Ryan said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Are the American travelers *THAT* dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?
> ...


I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Yes, not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop. They start making very expensive demands that Amtrak fix their mistake, rather than owning up to their own foolishness and taking responsibility for their own actions. It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

Heck, while I was only a semi-experienced train traveler at the time, my boss & I nearly boarded the wrong train about 23 years ago in Trenton. We had been at a business lunch, which I do admit had seen a fair amount of alcohol being served to all of us, and were headed back to NY. I thought that I had the correct side of the station, my first visit to it, and I was wrong. Thankfully I asked a conductor before we boarded the train to Philly. Of course we missed our train to NY and had to wait an hour for the next one.

And I couldn't rely on my boss to help me with picking the correct side to find our train on. He was halfway through his meal before he realized that he was eating what the client had ordered and that the client had his meal.  :lol: Neither noticed when the waiter put the plates down. So I certainly wasn't going to ask him which track we needed!


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## sechs (Apr 3, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Texan Eagle said:
> ...


Oh, how many times have I seen someone almost or actually miss a plane because they failed to arrive to board on time! They print all of the information on your boarding pass; it's available on screens everywhere; and, they announce it throughout the airport.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 3, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Texan Eagle said:
> ...


So you are saying Amtrak needs to put everyone through the kindergarten walk because two drunk passengers could not figure out the right train?





Again, like I said before, the cheap and effective solutions exist in more evolved passenger rail networks halfway across the world from Amtrak, like in India (yes, sorry I have been dragging Indian Railways a lot into the picture, but come on, there is a lot Amtrak can learn from a passenger rail system that is well oiled and functional)- put up destination boards on the train's exterior and voila! problem solved! Like this-






Throw in a line in Espanol too and you are good to go! See it has visual clues too for folks who might on a later date sue Amtrak claiming they did not know how to read English or Spanish!


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


NO, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was simply pointing out that even I have made a mistake. I however accepted the blame for my mistake! And my penalty was to wait another hour for the next train. I didn't run to the ticket office and demand that they find me a train sooner or hail & pay for a cab, etc.

But because there are some American's who will do just that, Yes, we get subjected to the kindergarten walk. And trust me, I'm not happy with that idea at all. In fact, I almost never subject myself to the line in NYP and the ticket check at the top of the escalator. In all my travels, and I've been averaging over 10,000 miles a year on Amtrak for the last 10 years at least, I think that the only stations where I've ever done the walk are New Orleans & Seattle. And I've only done it there because there is no way around it. At all other stations, be it via Lounges, redcaps, or simply knowing the tricks, I've avoided the line.



Texan Eagle said:


> Again, like I said before, the cheap and effective solutions exist in more evolved passenger rail networks halfway across the world from Amtrak, like in India (yes, sorry I have been dragging Indian Railways a lot into the picture, but come on, there is a lot Amtrak can learn from a passenger rail system that is well oiled and functional)- put up destination boards on the train's exterior and voila! problem solved! Like this-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A sign like you've pictured would be useless in NY. Except for the Lake Shore, all other trains rarely depart from the same track. And even the LSL occasionally is forced to a different track. So even assuming that they could hang such a sign, they'd have to keep moving it every day. Maybe even twice in one day!


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## MattW (Apr 4, 2012)

What about the commuters? Don't the LIRR, MNRR, NJT, Metra, Metrolink, SEPTA etc. passengers usually make it to their trains just fine without the kindergarten walk? And aren't the trains usually on different tracks each day too?


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 4, 2012)

Alan, have you heard of liquid crystal displays?


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## cirdan (Apr 4, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> So you are saying Amtrak needs to put everyone through the kindergarten walk because two drunk passengers could not figure out the right train?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.

Railroad passenger information should be simple, it should use a clearly recognisable and uniform font, a reduced color set and conform to minimum quality standards in terms of graphic design.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 4, 2012)

cirdan said:


> Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.
> 
> Railroad passenger information should be simple, it should use a clearly recognisable and uniform font, a reduced color set and conform to minimum quality standards in terms of graphic design.


Umm sorry, I should have made that more clear- the signboard whose photo I posted is *on the outside of the **train**, *not the *station*. I had posted that in reply to Alan's narration of the incident in which he did not know if he was boarding the correct train. If the train had a board on its exterior announcing it is headed to WASHINGTON DC and not NEW YORK CITY, he would have not been confused. I guess this photo should make it more clear-






In the station concourses, the existing Solari boards or LCD boards are good enough. In addition to that, once the passengers go down to their platforms, and if there are say two trains waiting on two sides of the platform, if each of the trains has a name board like the one shown above, I don't see how passengers would get confused.

And yes I agree, that name board I showed in the first photo is particularly gaudy and decorated, usually the name boards on trains in India have a plain single colored background with text in one color only, making it easy to spot.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop.


Regardless if you think Americans are stupid or not, I would hope we can all agree that catering to the needs of loudmouthed idiots and drunkards is a lousy way to improve your image. That's not to say image is everything, but when it comes to future funding battles Amtrak could use all the support they can get among the general population.



AlanB said:


> It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!


Does Amtrak waste thousands of man-hours slowing everyone down in order to guide idiots across the tracks? If not then I don't see the connection.



AlanB said:


> So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.


How long has this been going on? Seems like it might be time to revisit this decision and streamline the process with better signage on the platforms and trains. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be better than the uniquely handicapped system we use today. I haven't seen anything this silly since the time I rode the Arlington Cemetery tour tram, and that's saying something!


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## cirdan (Apr 4, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Umm sorry, I should have made that more clear- the signboard whose photo I posted is *on the outside of the **train**, *not the *station*. I had posted that in reply to Alan's narration of the incident in which he did not know if he was boarding the correct train. If the train had a board on its exterior announcing it is headed to WASHINGTON DC and not NEW YORK CITY, he would have not been confused. I guess this photo should make it more clear-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, sorry, I misunderstood you.

Of course I agree with what you say.

The train on your photo also appears to be displaying the train/service number and also the name of the train. Maybe this would also help at busy and complicated Amtrak stations. We don't have any trouble identifying buses by service numbers and it saves us reading through lots of text. Just stating the main stops may be of help to those of us who know our trains, but for those who are weak on geography it may not be reassuring if their stop is not listed. So in that respect a railroad is more complicated than a flight which will have one or just a small number of destinations. A train can serve several dozen stations and listing them all would require a huge board. A service number, or indeed the name of the train would help diambiguate in such a situation, as the name and number are elements that can easily be remembered and quickly recognized..


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Alan, have you heard of liquid crystal displays?


Yes, but that is NOT a picture of an LCD. I responded to what is pictured and being held up as an example of what to do; not what might be possible. Not to mention in NYP, Amtrak would not have room for an LCD that wide over each gate.


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 4, 2012)

Might all the posts about pre-assigned seating do better in their own thread, perhaps stickied since this topic is of a perennial nature? I'm finding it quite interesting, and would contribute myself. However, I want to add to the main topic of "arbitrary/inconsistent/capricious employee-made rules".

When I was riding the Silver Star, I purchased about 10$ worth of drinks in the cafe car. I asked for a glass of water -- not a 2$ bottle of water, just tap water. The LSA refused to give that to me and would only give me a cup of ice. He wanted me to go back to the coaches to get water from one of the spigots that are located near the washrooms on the car ends. I went ahead and did this, only to find that the cups don't fit. In addition, the spigot did not work. Why should I have to leave the CAFE car to get tap water anyway?

The LSA was either being lazy or trying to get me to give more money. I find this absurd and insulting. He has the same equipment as the diner and sleeping cars -- nothing prevents him from using either the sink or the boiling water spigot. (The water sources are both potable.) I was especially incensed at him not giving me water since I'd paid 10$ for some overpriced crap in a cardboard box as it was.

Another incident on a different Silver Star: I'd come on for breakfast and went into the diner. Some woman working in the diner, I'm not sure if she was the LSA or just a waitress, told me to sit with the Amish family at table X, so I did. It had a young couple and their infant. They asked me if I might not want to take one of the booths that only had two people seated at it, since they had a car seat on the other side with the infant in it. The women who originally asked me to sit with the Amish couple overheard them and then verbally attacked them, saying that "that's not how things work". She told them that they "should have" sat across from each other with their child seated against the window. (Right, like an Amish couple is going to have a stranger sit next to them like that.) In other words, she insinuated that they have some nerve suggesting I sit elsewhere since they don't "know" how to properly sit in the dining car of a train. And they were first class sleeper passengers to boot!

The Amish couple was right -- it made more sense for me to sit across from two people instead of three, especially since there was plenty of room. The part that upset me the most, though, was the arrogance of that waitress/LSA and her insistence that that couple had no business questioning her infallible methods -- even though they didn't -- and that it was they who were in the wrong.

The man was visibly upset and made a very polite comment to me about his feelings. I, of course, told him that he should call and complain, as well as write a letter. For me, this showed two examples of unacceptable customer service on two different trains with two different crews.

Another example of unacceptable employee behaviour: at a smaller station, I was outside on the platform one day and saw a couple of people come up to one of the agents who was outside of the station. The people asked her the status of the train. She told them, rudely, that they should go inside and ask the agent at the window, since she was outside and "busy". (How dare they even assume she'd know the status of a train she'd be preparing to work! Employees certainly don't keep themselves apprised of facts that are of central importance to their job!) A passenger who overheard this exchange spoke up and said that the train was running late by such-and-such amount. How embarrassing for that rude woman, and how that must have shown how poorly she did her job – a passenger had to provide information that she'd paid to provide!

What she should have done was asked the people if they could excuse her for a moment while she went and checked on the train's status. Or, she could have explained or directed them to the window agent in a more polite and helpful, as opposed to indignant, manner.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I might well have walked straight past that sign without paying attention as the explosion of colors and visuals make it look like an advertising poster and when I'm finding my way in a difficult situation I switch off the part of my brain that looks at commercial ads.
> ...


I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.



Texan Eagle said:


> In the station concourses, the existing Solari boards or LCD boards are good enough. In addition to that, once the passengers go down to their platforms, and if there are say two trains waiting on two sides of the platform, if each of the trains has a name board like the one shown above, I don't see how passengers would get confused.
> And yes I agree, that name board I showed in the first photo is particularly gaudy and decorated, usually the name boards on trains in India have a plain single colored background with text in one color only, making it easy to spot.


Texan,

I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?

Because people don't pay any attention and/or it doesn't occur to them that more than one service serves that station. There are some who simply see a train pull up, a door opens, and they get on it. Clearly that is not a smart thing to be doing, I don't disagree. But that is what some will do. And yet, as I said before, as far as they're concerned it's Amtrak's fault that they got on the wrong train.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop.
> ...


Please don't put words in my mouth; thank you very much! I did NOT say "all Americans are stupid."

And Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested. They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place. There is also probably an element of security here too. And while I appreciate that you are sufficiently annoyed by having to stand in one of those lines, since one encounters similar practices at airports that is to say that one stands in line to board the plane (even if they call you row by row to minimize the length of the line), Amtrak probably figures that most Americans are used to the idea.



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!
> ...


Well then I can't help you. Sorry! 



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.
> ...


Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 4, 2012)

Sorry for the double post, but there were additional replies that came up whilst I was composing the previous post.



> [...] but for those who are weak on geography it may not be reassuring if their stop is not listed. So in that respect a railroad is more complicated than a flight which will have one or just a small number of destinations. A train can serve several dozen stations and listing them all would require a huge board. A service number, or indeed the name of the train would help diambiguate in such a situation, as the name and number are elements that can easily be remembered and quickly recognized..


Really, if one can't figure out the correct train from the information given in appropriate signage that lists major stops, they shouldn't be allowed outside in public unsupervised. They don't list every stop on a subway, NJT, SEPTA, etc. train do they? That's where Local, Limited, Express, Limited Express, and line diagrams come in. Add to that the fact that your ticket shows your train number, and you're all set. If you're supposed to board train 178 to Newark at Philadelphia and you see a sign board on a train that says "Train 178: Washington-Philadelphia-New York / Car 22", what's there to figure out? Might someone with such a ticket be so incompetent as to board train 67 to Richmond?

Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid. It should cater to normal, well-adjusted human beings who are more than capable of figuring out how to ride trains if they're not led around by the hand and treated like children. Enabling idiots won't do them any good, and only perpetuates the problem. Rather, having gotten on the wrong train will certainly teach them how to be more careful next time -- assuming the appropriate signs, wayfinding devices, etc. that are used on trains everywhere else in the US and in the world are implemented.As the old saying goes: "teach a man to fish..."


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2012)

Colonel Klink said:


> Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid.


Unfortunately in this litigation happy society, everyone has to cater to the stupid. Hence all the common-sense warnings on packaging, street signs, etc.


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## JayPea (Apr 4, 2012)

I was once on the EB, bound for Seattle from Spokane, when a young man got aboard at Everett. When the train started moving and the conductor collected his ticket, it was discovered the man had a ticket for a Cascades train instead. There is juuuuuust a wee bit of difference between a Superliner set and a Cascades Talgo set. :lol: So it happens. And a couple of years ago, while riding the TE, on TWO occasions, the concept of opening the doors between cars was too much for some passengers. In both cases, they apparently didn't understand the concept of PUSH printed on the doors in 1 inch high letters. In one case, it was to be expected, as it was a woman who, among other things, rushed up to the train in Fort Worth at the last possible moment with her boyfriend, her two kids (one of whom was a baby, just a few months old), a Chihuahua, and seventy-eleven assorted bags, boxes and other stuff. The TE was actually held up for several minutes while waiting on her. She also yelled at her baby to shut up when it was crying and, at a smoke stop, waited until the stop was over, tried to go down the stairs while everyone else was trying to go back up, then bitched because she didn't get her precious cigarette. So it was not surprising she was unable to grasp the concept of pushing the plate on the door where it said PUSH. Another was an elderly couple, who had to be shown more than once how to open the doors. Afterward they were grumbling because they thought someone should have instructed them on the complicated procedure of opening doors  So sometimes we Americans might not always be the sharpest tools in the shed. Somehow though I don't think we are the only country on earth with slow-witted people.


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## TimePeace (Apr 4, 2012)

As for stupid people, that is not a problem here obviously.

But we are still a bunch of whiners. Maybe if everyone here wasn't of such notably superior intelligence, they'd be a little more tolerant of others.

Message taken: it's not easy to be a rocket scientist among morons.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested.


I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.



AlanB said:


> They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.


That may have been true when labor was cheap, but I'm somewhat doubtful that's still the case today. Better signage with more precise spotting and earlier notice could potentially reduce labor costs while improving the experience for regular customers.



AlanB said:


> There is also probably an element of security here too.


That's a new one on me. How exactly does the kindergarten line improve security if it can be avoided entirely with nothing more than a sleeper ticket?



Texas Sunset said:


> Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.


Plane? Did you not have any example of a passenger railway that treats their customers like Amtrak does?


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.


Indeed, I see this all the time. While LCD/LED signs would enable the entire train to be configured with the appropriate signage relatively easily, the ready crews can't be bothered to even change the electronic numbers on the Viewliners half the time.

However I disagree with your stance that ensuring correct signage on trains is "not something that Amtrak can do." No, it's that it is something that Amtrak is _unwilling _to do.



AlanB said:


> I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?
> 
> Because people don't pay any attention and/or it doesn't occur to them that more than one service serves that station. There are some who simply see a train pull up, a door opens, and they get on it. Clearly that is not a smart thing to be doing, I don't disagree. But that is what some will do. And yet, as I said before, as far as they're concerned it's Amtrak's fault that they got on the wrong train.


By entertaining hose kinds of delusional claims, Amtrak only ensures that such behaviour continues in perpetuity. They need to nip that it the bud and stop enabling these people.

On Deutsche Bahn or on the Berlin U-Bahn, if I got on a train without a ticket I'd be fined 400€. If I complained, they'd tell me to take it to court. The odd inspector might sympathise with me if he genuinely saw I was a helpless tourist with a poor grasp of the language, but not all would. In Japan, you'd simply be forced to pay the additional fare before exiting the fare paid zone via the turnstile. While I'm not saying Amtrak could or should penalise this behaviour, they're certainly in a place where they can refrain from encouraging it by falling over backwards to cater to imbeciles. If Amtrak is going to jump through hoops, why not do so in places that matter, such as customer service? How about maintaining and cleaning their cars? All the labour they waste could be used to prevent the very incidents described in this thread!



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.
> ...


Exactly. Perhaps a 'make work' scheme is one of the very reasons Amtrak doesn't do as you suggest? If that's the case -- which certainly is likely -- it's a sad state of affairs, as those people could have provided service on board long distance trains instead.



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > There is also probably an element of security here too.
> ...


Indeed. There is no 'security' other than that of the 'theatre of the absurd' variety. Though I'm sure Amtrak is more than willing to call it such in order to justify a pointless, wasteful, wrong-headed exercise.



AmtrakBlue said:


> Colonel Klink said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak should not try to cater to the stupidest of the stupid.
> ...


No one, even in the sue-happy US, is going to sue Amtrak because they got on the wrong train. The worst that could happen is Amtrak doesn't charge them a penalty or an extra fare for the additional trip. Again, how do SEPTA, CalTrains, NJT, etc. survive?

*EDIT*:



Texas Sunset said:


> I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.


You hit the nail on the head. If only Amtrak management would understand this, they'd be on their way to completely revolutionising the company.


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## PaulM (Apr 4, 2012)

Some comments about European type seat reservations:

1. They are voluntary, You pay a few bucks more for a reservation, but only if you want to.

2. You get to chose your seat when you reserve it. So presumably you won't have the Acela problem of passengers not wanting to sit in their reserved seat.

3. Even if you didn't like your reserved seat, you are free to move to any seat that isn't reserved for the spot where the train happens to be. If some one has reserved it down the line, then you have to move.

4. No attendant will meet you at the door when you board or tell you when it is time to get off. I'll let others argue about whether this is a cultural or IQ thing that is insurmountable. Another byproduct of this system is the reduced labor required. A long intercity train may have only 2 conductors and a restaurant car server. The two conductors generally sit in a small office in the baggage car, in the center of the train no less. They only come out at stops to signal the engineer when to depart or to help load bicycles. No such thing as coach attendants.

5. The biggest obstacle would be the need to retrofit seats with a sign board indicating when the seat was reserved. Originally, it was a thin piece of cardboard placed in a slot, presumably before departure. Now, I 'm sure they have electronic signs.


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 4, 2012)

The acela sets have a digital readout above the seats that are supposed to show your destination but I think the reason they don't work is they malfunctioned during testing and was not worth fixing.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> The acela sets have a digital readout above the seats that are supposed to show your destination but I think the reason they don't work is they malfunctioned during testing and was not worth fixing.


No, those digital readouts required the original quasi eTicketing program in order to work. The idea was that the conductor scanned the barcode on the ETicket with his scanner, typed in the seat number & car number, and that in turn updated the onboard computer, which put up the passenger's destination on that display. It read empty until the conductor scanned the ticket, and once the train reached that stop, it would go back to empty.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Colonel Klink said:


> They don't list every stop on a subway, NJT, SEPTA, etc. train do they? That's where Local, Limited, Express, Limited Express, and line diagrams come in.


Actually in the major stations, the variable message boards do tend to flash through every stop that train will serve. And many subways, like for example the DC Metro, do have signs showing all the stops to the end of the line if you board the train that arrives on that side of the platform.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak is not trying to "improve their image" by catering to people like you suggested.
> ...


I wouldn't argue most of that.

However, none of that has anything to do with fixing the line-up at the gate, nor does it explain how getting rid of the line-up at the gate will fix Amtrak's image problem.



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > They're trying to save money & hassles by ensuring that those people don't get on the wrong train in the first place.
> ...


When you have more than a few passengers boarding the wrong train every day and demanding extraordinary treatment to fix their mistake, it does add up. And having the person who made the mistake standing/sitting there arguing with the conductor over how he/she must fix their screw-up, one is indeed hurting all the other passengers in that car and therefore Amtrak's "image".



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > There is also probably an element of security here too.
> ...


You don't have people just wandering around on the platform. And in most stations having a sleeper ticket doesn't help you avoid the line. For example, in Chicago your ticket got checked when you walked into that lounge. Now they both know that you belong in the lounge, and that you are indeed traveling on a train that day. And you still get to line up at the back door and get escorted to the platform.

Yes, you've avoided the much longer coach line. But you haven't avoided lines in general.



Texas Sunset said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Well then clearly you don't fly or only fly First Class, as that's the only way you avoid a line to board a plane.
> ...


So the planes that you fly don't see an agent calling out "we're now boarding rows 10 to 15" for example?


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Colonel Klink said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, had the Amfleet I cars had signs like that and assuming that Amtrak crews ensured that the correct one's were being displayed, I would not have been confused. And please note that having the crews ensure the correct signage is critical and frankly right now, not something that Amtrak can do. Right now they can't even remember to properly set the number boards on each car. This past Sunday as I stood on the platform in Wilmington with a few other people from the forum, at the 40th Anniversary Train, the Crescent pulled into the station. One car claimed it was train 98, another had a number that doesn't even exist at Amtrak, and a third car had the correct number, #20 on it.
> ...


No, Amtrak has been trying to get the crews to ensure that those numbers are indeed correctly set.



Colonel Klink said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate that you can't imagine and I understand that you have learned how to pick the correct train. Sadly there are people here in the US, where for many trains aren't as common, and who for what ever reason cannot figure it out. Here'a a prime example; Metropark, NJ. This station is served by both Amtrak & New Jersey Transit. Both have very distinct color markings on their trains and the cars don't really look the same at all. Yet every Amtrak train that pulls into this station, save one with a very lazy conductor, always announces at least twice that this is an Amtrak train and not a New Jersey Transit train. Why?
> ...


In Japan & Germany the passenger doesn't whip out their cell phone and dial 911 to tell the police that they're being kidnapped or held against their will, etc. They also typically don't pull the emergency cord either to stop the train.



Colonel Klink said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


An onboard attendant makes a lot more per hour than a gate attendant does, that onboard attendant also requires meals, a bed on the train, and a hotel room at the other end of the run. NO way that is cheaper!

Does it improve service? Probably. But its still not cheaper.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2012)

Colonel Klink said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


See my response to TS.



Colonel Klink said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Colonel Klink said:
> ...


SEPTA, CalTrain, NJT all have another train going the other direction typically coming within an hour or less. Except on the NEC, that is not true of Amtrak. Also a passenger boarding the wrong train on say an NJT train, might be taken on average 5 or 6 miles before the mistake can be rectified. On an Amtrak train it could 100 miles before the mistake could be fixed.



Colonel Klink said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think many of the OBS staff have any clue that Amtrak has an image problem to begin with. Or maybe they just don't care. But if they did know and did care I would think that softening their often abrasive and/or patronizing attitude toward paying customers could build a lot of goodwill over time without costing them a lot of money. Letting people sit where they want (within reason) and keeping passengers updated on which platform will have their train and where their car will be seems like low hanging fruit to me.
> ...


They understand this and they've been making changes. Things are better now than they were 10 years ago. Unfortunately it is an uphill battle; in part because there are some bad managers entrenched at Amtrak and in part because the union resists changes. It also very expensive to keep a manager on every single train every day of the week. And when the cat is away, the mice will play!


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Actually in the major stations, the variable message boards do tend to flash through every stop that train will serve. And many subways, like for example the DC Metro, do have signs showing all the stops to the end of the line if you board the train that arrives on that side of the platform.


I stand corrected!

I was thinking more that something like this would be pretty useful and easy to implement:






The hard metal signs are manually switched. Not all stops are shown, but the train number at least is included on the sign.

Or, if they could get the LED/LCD signs to work, something like this:






I think this one actually does scroll through every single stop, which is arguably a lot easier on a high-speed train with limited stops.



PaulM said:


> The biggest obstacle would be the need to retrofit seats with a sign board indicating when the seat was reserved. Originally, it was a thin piece of cardboard placed in a slot, presumably before departure. Now, I 'm sure they have electronic signs.


Actually, when I was on a DB NachtZug train back in the day (when they still existed), they were still using cardboard inserts. Those trains were all-reserved precisely because people would be sleeping. They tended to group people getting off at similar stops in the same compartment. I actually only recall the electronic signs on the ICE.






This would be the easiest way for Amtrak to implement a reserved seat system.

I'd not go so far as to let passengers choose a specific seat (e.g. 23) though, I'd only allow them to make a generic choice, such as window or aisle, group (i.e. four seats facing each other) or non-group, quiet car or normal, table or no table (where applicable). This is actually how all the trains in other countries I've been on have done it -- allowed generic requests only. (I'm sure there were ways to manually assign a specific seat, but the option was never given to me and the DB website won't allow it.)

Another thing: if you purchased a reservation after the train had departed, even with the electronic signs, your origin and destination were not listed. Instead, there were blocks of reserved seats set-aside for last-minute buyers. Those seats were simply marked 'reserved'. Anyone could snag one as long as they paid the extra 3€ and as long as no one else was holding an assignment for that seat for the same portion of the trip. Everyone else is supposed to sit in the blocks of unreserved seats in other cars. (That, or stand in the aisle as I had to do once when I couldn't get a reservation at all and all the unreserved seats were taken.)

To sort the issue with changing signs on cars at terminals, Amtrak could establish a uniform set of line numbers. Instead of having the line number for a particular car contain the number of the train, they could simply remove the train number. Trains with identical consists (e.g. Crescent, Meteor, Star) would never need to have their line numbers changed unless cars were switched. Trains that split or had through cars would use different numbering conventions for the different sections, much like the Lake Shore does today. (The LSL can't fit the train number of 448 and 449 in the line numbers since there are only 4 digits that can be used per car.)

So instead of seeing cars numbered 6969, 9711, etc. on the Crescent, I'd only see 42, 41, 11, etc.


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> [...]


Good points.

I am glad to hear that they are trying to fix things. As for the seating and signage and stuff, it might only be doable within corridors such as the NEC, California, Cascades, etc. At least in this point in time. But perhaps they could implement pilot projects for now? (Then again, when I took a San Diegan, no one told me where or when to board or alight, no one checked my ticket at the station, and I simply had to find an open seat. It was very similar to NJT, SEPTA, Tri-Rail, etc. So maybe they have everything working better in those corridors.)


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