# Mandatory Crew Changes



## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

In reading the posts about the miserable winter conditions we're experiencing, some questions have arisin in my head.

How long can the Engineer and Conductor work before they go dead? I used to know the answer to that, but I've forgotten.

Since five trains are currently on my "special interest" list, where do those five trains normally have crew changes, assuming all five are running on-time, and are these ususally also service/fuel stops?

49 (NYP to CHI)

5 (CHI to EMY)

14 (LAX to SEA)

8 (SEA to CHI)

48 (CHI to ROC)

I've got their normal timetables, so with that information I can probably figure out where they will HAVE to change crews if they're running late due to "inconveniences" like the weather? :unsure:  :lol:

Thanks!! :hi:


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## rtabern (Feb 3, 2011)

I believe it's 12 hours for conductors... and a little less than that for engineers.

#5 CREW CHANGES:

Chicago, IL

Ottumwa, IA (engineer)

Omaha, NE

Denver, CO

Grand Junction, CO

Salt Lake City, UT

Winnemucca, NV

Reno, NV

Sacramento, CA

Emeryville, CA

#14 CREW CHANGES:

Los Angeles, CA

San Luis Obispo, CA

Oakland, CA

Klamath Falls, OR

Portland, OR

Seattle, WA

#8 CREW CHANGES:

Seattle, WA

Spokane, WA

Whitefish, MT

Havre, MT

Minot, ND

St Cloud, MN

Winona, MN

Chicago, IL

And... I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.


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## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2011)

rtabern said:


> I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.


How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?




They start or end in CHI and run between CHI and NYP or BOS only!


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## zephyr17 (Feb 3, 2011)

AlanB said:


> It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.


I think the 8 hour limit for an engineer alone in the cab is an Amtrak/union-negotiated rule, not Federal HOS. If, for some reason, a run with one engineer takes over 8 hours due to some operating conditions, I don't think he dies on the law and brings the train to a halt, as he would have to it if it were an HOS limit. I think he just continues operating, and gets penalty pay.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
> ...


Evidently you left your glasses down by the pool. :lol:

That original post mentioned 49 from NYP to CHI. 49 is a westbound train, last time I checked; and as near as I can figure, NYP is east of CHI, thus requiring 49 to travel west *to* CHI.

Also, the origanal post mentioned 48, *from* CHI *to* ROC. I'm pretty sure that 48 runs eastward *from* CHI *to* ROC, unless someone has done something real dastardly with the maps I've seen lately. :unsure: 

My take on *rtaburn's* post was that he was saying that he usually takes trains westward out of CHI, and thus wasn't sure about the crew changes for *either* 48 or 49. In any case, it's given me a good starting point for my own triptik database.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

zephyr17 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
> ...


That would make sense. I remember that *MANY* YEARS AGO there was a big deal made of the fact that the railroads (maybe Amtrak :unsure: ) were trying to do away with firemen entirely. There's little need for a fireman shoveling coal into the firebox anymore, but many jobs were going to be eliminated, and the union fought for them.

Personally, I feel that it's a good thing to have two brains and four hands up there in the driver's seat. Maybe we need to change the names of some job descriptions, but I really don't think it's a good idea to have just one guy sitting up there driving the train for 12 hours, or even eight hours. <_<


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## George Harris (Feb 3, 2011)

This stuff is spelled out in detail in the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) For a somewhat simplified version, see www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/Hours%20of%20Service%20FINAL%20092208doc.pdf

The statements relevant to the question asked are:



> A train employee is defined as an individual engaged in or connected with the movement of a train. This includes locomotive engineers, conductors and brakemen. Train employees may spend up to 12 hours on duty. If they are on duty less than 12 hours in a 24-hour period, the statute requires that they receive 8 hours off duty. If they are on duty for 12 consecutive hours, the statute requires a minimum off-duty period of 10 hours.
> Time on duty includes all time spent engaged in or connected with the movement of a train, time spent in transportation from the employee's reporting point to the location of an assignment, and any other service performed for the railroad. Time spent awaiting and in deadhead transportation to the point of final release, where the train employee will spend the required off-duty period, is neither time on duty nor time off duty, commonly referred to in the industry as "limbo time." There is no limit on the amount of limbo time that an employee may experience in a 24-hour period, and the combination of time on duty and limbo time may exceed 12 hours.


Under this definition, dining car crew, sleeping car attendents, and such like are not "train employees" because they are not part of the crew "engaged in or connected with the *movement* of the train."

This time can be exceeded in emergency, however the definition of emergency has been interpreted so tightly that unless it is literally a matter of life and death or something very close when the 12 hour limit is reached the train is stopped and stays put until a legally rested crew (whether just engineer or engineer and conductor, I am not sure) can get to it.


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## Trogdor (Feb 3, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> zephyr17 said:
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> > AlanB said:
> ...


The name of the job has already changed. There is no such thing as a fireman at Amtrak. The second engineer is called the Assistant Engineer.

Under the existing contract rules, a second (assistant) engineer is required for any scheduled run exceeding six hours. That's why you may see some locations where only the engineer changes, but the conductor runs through.


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## Train2104 (Feb 3, 2011)

Where are the crew change points on the NEC? I know WAS, PHL, NYP, NHV, BOS, but is there a method to what train changes where?


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## mwmnp (Feb 3, 2011)

In 2006, _Trains _had a "map of the month" that showed all of Amtrak's crew districts. Some things may have changed since then, but, nevertheless, here's a link to an image of that map. One thing that may be a bit confusing is that the arrows point to the away terminals.


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## had8ley (Feb 3, 2011)

zephyr17 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It's 12 hours for conductors always and engineers provided that there is an engineer and a fireman in the cab. Otherwise the engineer can only work 8 hours.
> ...


Absolutely correctumundo...


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> the_traveler said:
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> 
> > How do you take 48 and 49 west of Chicago?
> ...


Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!


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## EB_OBS (Feb 3, 2011)

#7/27, 8/28 crew change points are;

Seattle

Portland

Wenatchee (engineer only)

Pasco ( engineer only)

Spokane

Whitefish, MT (engineer only)

Shelby, MT

Minot, ND

St Cloud, MN

Winona, MN

Chicago


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## oldtimer (Feb 3, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> > the_traveler said:
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All this time I thought that your glasses only fogged up when you went from the pool to the hot tub on the lower level. From my own rail travel experience My glass do not fog up in the penthouse sauna as it is dry heat until my servant is told to throw water on the heated stones!

:blush: :help: :giggle:


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## rtabern (Feb 3, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not 100 percent sure about #48 and #49. I know I'd be Chicago, Toledo, but not really sure beyond that since I take the train more west out of Chicago than east usually.
> ...


I was saying I don't really know about the crew changes for #48 and #49 because I normally take the train more west out of Chicago than east... that is why I knew the crew changes for the western trains and wasnt sure about the LSL (since it does go east)


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2011)

oldtimer2 said:


> the_traveler said:
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> 
> > Sorry, my glasses got fogged up while I was in the sauna in the penthouse suite!
> ...


That's when they fogged up!



(And of course I only use bottled natural spring water!



If I run out, I am forced to use champagne!



)


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## GG-1 (Feb 3, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> oldtimer2 said:
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> > the_traveler said:
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You Guys. Are absolutely nuts, Mahalo and aloha :lol:  :hi:


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## zephyr17 (Feb 3, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> 
> > zephyr17 said:
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Thanks, Trogdor. I was pretty sure I knew the mechanism, but wasn't sure of the current time limit for one person operation. I knew it used to be six hours, but things change, and I took eight by AlanB at face value.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> #7/27, 8/28 crew change points are;
> 
> Seattle
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. :hi:

Your info fits nicely into the timetable I have in my spreadsheet while planning my trip this fall, as well as the info that *rtabern* sent. Both sets of info meet Federal standards, as well as Amtrak standards for engineers and conductors. Especially considering it's no real trick to put an assistant engineer in the cab. Despite the fact that those poor conductors might have to work a 12 hour shift, I think I'd still prefer to be a conductor, rather than an engineer.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG --- I'm still missing information about 49 from NYP to CHI, and 48 from CHI to ROC. :unsure:

Is there anyone out there who knows, or knows where I can look it up?


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## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

Train2104 said:


> Where are the crew change points on the NEC? I know WAS, PHL, NYP, NHV, BOS, but is there a method to what train changes where?


Philly is only a crew change point for I believe the Keystones and the Pennsy. No other NEC trains change crews at Philly.

Acela crews change only in NY, making a crew run either DC to NY or Boston to NY.

Regionals change in both NY and New Haven. The main reason for that is the fact that pre-electrification, you went from electrics to diesels and vice versa. It's kept that way today largely because of the contract and perhaps a small bit because of service to Springfield.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> the_traveler said:
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> > oldtimer2 said:
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Thank you very much. :hi: Speaking strictly for myself, I consider that a great compliment, as it's true of me, and I appreciate being found consistant. :lol:

Still... I'm lacking the crew change locations for 48 and 49. I've sneaked through Traveler's car and looked everywhere. -_-

The only place I haven't looked is in his champagne locker in his wine cellar. But I'm sure you know why. You know how Traveler can get about intruders.


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## had8ley (Feb 3, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> # I think I'd still prefer to be a conductor, rather than an engineer.


I never knew there was somebody who didn't want to blow the whistle and wave at little kids.


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## frequentflyer (Feb 3, 2011)

Per the Train article, I do not think the Eagle 21/22 change conductors in Austin anymore.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 3, 2011)

frequentflyer said:


> Per the Train article, I do not think the Eagle 21/22 change conductors in Austin anymore.


The only changes in Austin since the diner crew started going to SAS is the engineer! The conductors change in San Antonio and Ft. Worth on the Eagles!


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## Long Train Runnin' (Feb 3, 2011)

I think its toledo buffalo and albany are the crew points at least for conductors on the lsl route


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

had8ley said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> 
> > I'd rather be a conductor, rather than an engineer.
> ...


Maybe it's a "power thing." :lol:

I'd rather be back there mingling with the people, rather than sit up there, blowing the horn and waving at little kids. *I'd rather be in charge of the train,* not simply driving it.


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## Gord (Feb 3, 2011)

rtabern said:


> I believe it's 12 hours for conductors... and a little less than that for engineers.
> 
> #5 CREW CHANGES:
> 
> ...



Buffalo-Depew

Gord


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

Long Train Runnin said:


> I think its toledo buffalo and albany are the crew points at least for conductors on the lsl route


That's pretty much how I put it together too.

Moving west --- Train 49, having departed NYP at 3:45 PM, wouldn't have much need to change crews before ALB. Arriving at ALB at 6:25 PM and departing ALB with the second train attached, at 7:05 PM seems like a logical time and place to change crews. Then BUF, being 4 hours and 50 minutes from ALB when they arrived (BUF) at 11:55 PM, looked to be a logical place to change the crew again. The train would then depart BUF at 1:59 AM, and arrive in Toledo at 5:55 AM, 4 hours and 54 minutes later. When 49 got into CHI at 9:45 AM, there would be thousands of time for buffers for the crew.

Moving east --- I think the same time/distance holds for 48, so the station logic holds.

It'll take some careful attention to predict the time/place for the crew changes for a week like this week has been, but somebody seems to be doing it. :lol: I suppose that I'm up to the challenge too. :unsure:  :lol:


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> I've sneaked through Traveler's car and looked everywhere. -_- The only place I haven't looked is in his champagne locker in his wine cellar. But I'm sure you know why. You know how Traveler can get about intruders.


FYI: My wine cellar is located 2 levels below the lower level (that is, it is located below the pool and hot tub)!




But you have to get past my Security team and laser beam defense system! And watch out for the hidden mines!


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## Train2104 (Feb 3, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Regionals change in both NY and New Haven. The main reason for that is the fact that pre-electrification, you went from electrics to diesels and vice versa. It's kept that way today largely because of the contract and perhaps a small bit because of service to Springfield.


I thought NHV was a tiny crew base, relegated to Shuttle and SLE service since the electrification to Boston was completed.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 3, 2011)

I always thought crew changes corresponded with the longer stops, e.g. Havre, MT and St. Paul, MN. Shelby and St. Cloud are not very long stops - I take that to mean that a crew change can be accomplished fairly quickly.



EB_OBS said:


> #7/27, 8/28 crew change points are;
> 
> Seattle
> 
> ...


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## Trogdor (Feb 3, 2011)

A crew change can occur in less than a minute if they really had to. All it takes is for the arriving engineer and conductors to step off, and the new ones to get on.

If an engineer or conductor changes without the other, then they have to do a crew briefing, which can be as quick as a minute or as long as...however long it takes to go over any slow orders or special bulletins that apply to the train.

As for 48/49, the crews work CHI-TOL, TOL-BUF, BUF-ALB (conductor), BUF-SYR (engineer), SYR-ALB (engineer), and ALB-NYP.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Feb 3, 2011)

had8ley said:


> ThayerATM said:
> 
> 
> > # I think I'd still prefer to be a conductor, rather than an engineer.
> ...


I might not be rolling along the high iron for a class I, but I am NORAC qualified as a conductor and engineer, and I have to say I much prefer being a conductor. Even though on paper the responsibilities of the conductor require a lot more I find those duties to be quite simple. When I am sitting in the cab of a locomotive I'm always apprehensive, since its my hand pulling the throttle back, and its my responsibility to sound the horn at the crossings. Then there is the possibility (although in my case pretty slim) that there might be an object on the tracks from debris to a living breathing human being, and all I can do is dump the air brakes and hope I can get the train stopped. I don't know maybe more time in the cab will help me become more relax and focused, but at the moment I would much rather be a conductor. Just my 2 cents from having the pleasure of operating a 1942 GE 25 tonner.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

Long Train Runnin said:


> had8ley said:
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> > ThayerATM said:
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That was a kewl post !!

We were agreeing on the same job from completely different directions. My Amtrak reward would be from being where the people are. I don't have enough of my life left to figure I can change my perspective a whole lot.

You indicate that you're happier away from the throttle.

I hope you have enough of your life ahead of you to figure out what you really like doing --- then do it. It's too late for me, and all I can do is is enjoy going along for the Amtrak ride. :lol:


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## ThayerATM (Feb 3, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> I always thought crew changes corresponded with the longer stops, e.g. Havre, MT and St. Paul, MN. Shelby and St. Cloud are not very long stops - I take that to mean that a crew change can be accomplished fairly quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unless the crew flings themselves out a window while the train is still moving, a crew change can take place in just a couple of minutes. Still, the changes *do* usually occur at regular service stops so the the expiring crew can step off, and the new crew can step on and get oriented with the current goings-on.


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> It's too late for me, and all I can do is is enjoy going along for the Amtrak ride. :lol:


Hey, never say never!



Didn't Colonel Sanders start KFC when he was something like 60 or 70?


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## GG-1 (Feb 4, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> 
> > It's too late for me, and all I can do is is enjoy going along for the Amtrak ride. :lol:
> ...


Aloha

Thayer, When I read your message I thought of responding "never say never", The_Traveler beat me to it,    , oh well.


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## the_traveler (Feb 4, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> I thought of responding "never say never", The_Traveler beat me to it,    , oh well.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 4, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> the_traveler said:
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> > ThayerATM said:
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:lol: Ya gotta be quick. Traveler doesn't miss a second.

Notice that *I*didn't use the term "never"? hboy: :unsure:

But in reality, I'm no longer interested in "starting" a new career. I just want to spend my time traveling, and keeping my traveling experiences pleasant... Thus my obsessive-compulsive planning. :lol: And Amtrak seems to be the nitch for me to do just that. To see parts of the country that we've just flown over in the past. We've gotten to see New Orleans, Seattle, San Francisco, Minot :lol: , and New York City, all because of the cozy comfort of an Amtrak bedroom, and I don't even have to touch the steering wheel of a car.  I'll be more careful about NYC next time. That was too much physical exertion for my wife, and I was worried about her, but one person on this board made NYC a memorial experience. NYP will probably be an overnight stop for a couple of other Amtrak trips we're thinking about.


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## the_traveler (Feb 5, 2011)

ThayerATM said:


> NYP will probably be an overnight stop for a couple of other Amtrak trips we're thinking about.


I'd rather stay overnight in a hotel than at NYP!





You forgot to mention seeing downtown Shelby, MT! How could you forget the bar and casino across the station's parking lot?


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## ThayerATM (Feb 5, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> 
> > NYP will probably be an overnight stop for a couple of other Amtrak trips we're thinking about.
> ...


You're killin' me. :lol:

It's the sentence structure --- and I don't want to spend the time wording sentences that you can't get your foot in. :lol:

The *STOP* is NYP. But you knew that.  The overnight *STAY* would be at the Affinia Suites, just across 7th Ave from the station. Those are pretty good digs.

However, I'm looking to buy a car similar to your Penthouse car. Personally, I'd prefer a car with a Caboose motif, but the manufacturers feel that it would be awkward to build. They said that the penthouse suite they could handle easily, but the pool and hot tub on the lower level would be a little more difficult for them to design. I'm now thinking about two cars, one with quarters for my staff, to also to include the luggage area and food and beverages storage area... I don't know yet, buy I'll come up with the design.

<GASP> I could take off for just about anywhere Amtrak offered service from NYP, and spend the rest of my days in my own two-car train that might even visit downtown Shelby. A week in Toledo one night even comes to mind.


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## tp49 (Feb 5, 2011)

rtabern said:


> #14 CREW CHANGES:
> 
> Los Angeles, CA
> 
> ...


I believe that Oakland is not a crew change on 14 but that they are actually in San Jose which may be engineer only and Sacramento which is a full crew change point.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 5, 2011)

tp49 said:


> rtabern said:
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> > #14 CREW CHANGES:
> ...


On this leg of my journey, I guess I'll just have to wing it. :unsure: Fortunately, of the five legs on my journey, # 14 has the lowest history "Service Disruptions," so in late September this year the question is largely academic. hboy:


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## jis (Feb 6, 2011)

tp49 said:


> rtabern said:
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> > #14 CREW CHANGES:
> ...


Yup. San Jose is Engineer only. The Conductors go through from Sacramento to San Louis Obispo. BTW rtbern's list is missing Sacramento, which is a crew change point for both Conductors and Engineer.


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## Gord (Feb 7, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> A crew change can occur in less than a minute if they really had to. All it takes is for the arriving engineer and conductors to step off, and the new ones to get on.
> 
> If an engineer or conductor changes without the other, then they have to do a crew briefing, which can be as quick as a minute or as long as...however long it takes to go over any slow orders or special bulletins that apply to the train.
> 
> As for 48/49, the crews work CHI-TOL, TOL-BUF, BUF-ALB (conductor), BUF-SYR (engineer), SYR-ALB (engineer), and ALB-NYP.


I'm not up on current US operating rules but is there no standing brake test required when engineers change?

Gord


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