# Daylight Saving Time



## happy2meetu (Oct 19, 2016)

My wife and I have tickets travelling from Washington DC to Toledo on Saturday November 5. The train arrives in Toledo at 5:08 AM Sunday.. Daylight saving time ends during the night meaning the clocks go back one hour. 5:08 AM is the normal arrival time for this train on a daily basis. Why is the schedule not adjusted? Do they use the extra hour to pad the schedule? The train leaves DC at the regularly scheduled time as well.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 19, 2016)

The train will sit at the first station it reaches at/after the time change till the scheduled departure time.


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## John Bobinyec (Oct 19, 2016)

There are a few reasons the train's schedule isn't adjusted to take advantage of the time change.

The first is that folks downstream from the point of the time change are still used to the train arriving and departing at their station at a certain time.

It's too much trouble to publish a one day schedule.

The trains are allocated track time in a window. In other words, most of the time the host railroad has scheduled their own (freight) trains to mesh with Amtrak's trains. All of a sudden the Amtrak train would be early, and therefore out of its "slot". Thereafter, it probably would be delayed due to conflicting movements anyway.

It's an extra chance to recover from prior delays.

jb


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## happy2meetu (Oct 19, 2016)

Sounds like we get an extra hour on the train. Sounds like fun.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 19, 2016)

This came up on a popular travel blog a few years ago. It was clear that simply waiting in the next station for an hour seemed silly to many, at least at first glance. When the author was asked what he would change and why he had to think about it a bit. Eventually he came to a similar conclusion that the value/effort ratio of making special scheduling changes for trains that were suddenly early/late twice per year was questionable at best. Based on the growing anger and frustration many people seem to have over daylight savings time I would imagine that it will eventually become the new standard time year round. Time changes don't seem to bother me as much as most people I know, but I do wish auto-update was a feature more time keeping devices would support. For instance my current vehicle does just as bad a job of keeping accurate time as my very first car way back when. It can self-update many details from my extremely accurate phone, but not the current time for some reason. Seems like a pretty glaring oversight to me.


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## the_traveler (Oct 19, 2016)

If the train did not sit at the first station it comes to after 2 am, as said passengers at stations down the line may miss their train because it came and left "an hour early".

This could be very confusing if the station has an arrival time before 2 am (say 1:55 am) with a 10 minute stop and a departure time after 2 pm (say 2:05 am). So after 10 minutes, it leaves at 1:05 am. A passenger shows up at 1:30 am to board, only to find his train has already departed. I'm sure he will not be very happy!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 19, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> The train will sit at the first station it reaches at/after the time change till the scheduled departure time.


Assuming it's not at least an hour late that is...

What do they do when they spring forward?


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 19, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > The train will sit at the first station it reaches at/after the time change till the scheduled departure time.
> ...


Run an hour behind schedule, if on time, or if late, run an hour later than before the time change.


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## west point (Oct 19, 2016)

Spring ? Try to make up the lost hour by springing the train ahead..


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## Lonestar648 (Oct 19, 2016)

Just one more item on the long of things not benefiting from the twice a year time change. Some states have tried to get out of the time change, but the law is written in such a way it is very difficult. I think Texas tried a couple years ago, but the voters were confused by the language of the proposed change, so it did not pass.


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## PVD (Oct 19, 2016)

I used to work on communications systems that had date/time programmed in for many reasons. Some had settings to allow/disallow automatic switching, that was a problem when the gov't changed the dates for the switch and they would automatically switch on the wrong dates.Updating system software in some cases was a pricey option, if available. Some systems allowed you to set specific dates and times for the update, that was much better. Had a few large hotels that had systems that didn't switch automatically, because of the automatic wake up call feature we had to go in and reset them at the appropriate time. Cha-ching, a good OT job.


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## snvboy (Oct 19, 2016)

Time is a VERY complicated thing.

https://curtisautery.appspot.com/5779342353235968


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## PVD (Oct 19, 2016)

Hawaii and most of Arizona do not switch.


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## Texan Eagle (Oct 19, 2016)

Taking the Southwest Chief on the Saturday night of time change would be quite interesting since CA will be on same time as AZ when the train starts, and while the train is in AZ, they are now in a different time zone, but wait, when they move to NM, it will have same time zone as AZ now although it did not have when the train departed LA and.... oh well, screw that. I am confused now.


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## the_traveler (Oct 19, 2016)

I used to work in AZ and live in NV (just across the Colorado River). Since they were technically in different time zones, it was very interesting. For part of the year, AZ was 1 hour ahead, the rest of the year had both on the same time.


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## Alice (Oct 19, 2016)

Indian reservations in Arizona DO use daylight daylight savings time, unlike the rest of the state.


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## Thirdrail7 (Oct 19, 2016)

Realistically, the train will most likely be late, so you'll make up an hour.


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## railiner (Oct 19, 2016)

IIRC, the eastern half of Indiana also did not observe daylight time....Indianapolis was on eastern time in the winter, and central time in the summer, as a result.

What really was confusing, was when Amtrak made its some times semi-annual general schedule changes to coincide with the time change dates....

Even now...when a long distance train departs Chicago, and enroute the times are adjusted...does the train attempt to change to the new schedule if possible, or retain its old schedule until its completion of run?


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## Eric S (Oct 20, 2016)

I think Indiana was even more complicated than that. Northwest Indiana in the Chicago area was in Central Time and observed DST; Southeast Indiana in the Cincinnati area was in Eastern Time and observed DST; and the rest of the state was in Eastern Time and did not observe DST. Now the entire state observes DST, whether in Central Time (Chicago area and Evansville area) or in Eastern Time (rest of the state).


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## PVD (Oct 20, 2016)

It changed about 10 years ago. Indiana passed a law conforming all counties to DST observance, but they still have a split over which time zone they are in.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Oct 20, 2016)

And Indiana counties still fighting over whether to be in those regional enclaves or not (depending on whether they want to be part of Metropolitan Chicago or Cincinnati).

There has been talk in Chicago about going 1/2 hour off but that's never been truly serious, but it sounds like there is some movement for actually doing that in the far northeast. Iirc Newfoundland is already 1/2 hour off the standard time zones.


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## calwatch (Oct 20, 2016)

The time change screws one important connection, the LA-Bakersfield one on the San Joaquins, during the spring. My friend once boarded the 1 AM bus and the train had already left, on time so they had to wait in Bakersfield another two hours for the next train. There were about 30 other people in the same predicament. I don't know if they still do that or not, or if buses in November wait an hour for no good reason because it functions as the overnight replacement for the Surfliner.


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## jamiekearns (Oct 22, 2016)

Can't say much about the time change. But we will be in the same train as you! Small world


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## chakk (Oct 23, 2016)

Was on an overnight European train many years ago on the night the clocks rolled back. Train stopped at a station around 2 am and waited one hour before continuing on.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 7, 2017)

This year I remembered a conversation that member acelafan and I had about Amtrak's time adjustments when Standard Time becomes Daylight Time, so I'm adjusting schedules accordingly.

This is not about the Arizona or Indiana time zones. It's about the missing hour. As you know, on Sunday, 3/12/2017, at 2.01 a.m., time instantaneously jumps ahead to 3.01 a.m. Consider train 48 which normally arrives at Toledo at 2.50 a.m. and departs at 3.20 a.m. Within ARROW, the heart of Amtrak's reservation system, time is, for the lack of a better word, "undefined" between 2.01 a.m. and 3.01 a.m. Therefore, ARROW does not allow any train to be scheduled to arrive or depart during that period. On the morning of the twelfth, that arrival time cannot exist within ARROW. So, what to do? Well, Amtrak rescheduled the train to arrive at Toledo at 3.50 a.m. and they left the departure time as 3.20 a.m. In other words, the train is scheduled to depart 30 minutes before it is scheduled to arrive.

This wreaks of Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity thought experiments such as when trying to capture a car traveling at nearly the speed of light when it attempts to drive through a building with entrance and exit doors closing instantaneously and simultaneously as soon as the car enters the building. The car isn't captured - it's already gone.

There are other examples like train 48 this weekend. So if you call up Julie to find out where your train is, and time has changed for that train, you'd better be very careful, or else you'll miss it.

jb


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 7, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> This wreaks of Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity thought experiments such as when trying to capture a car traveling at nearly the speed of light when it attempts to drive through a building with entrance and exit doors closing instantaneously and simultaneously as soon as the car enters the building. The car isn't captured - it's already gone.


Wait, what? I want to hear more about this.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 7, 2017)

Texas has several strong bills in the Texas Legislature (House and Senate) to eliminate DST in Texas.


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## niemi24s (Mar 7, 2017)

How about this from theoretical physicist N. D. Merman in his _Spooky Actions At A Distance: Mysteries Of The Quantum Theory. ". . ._clocks do not measure some pre-existing thing called "time", . . .time is simply a convenient way to abstract the common behavior of all those objects we call "clocks"."_ :blink: _


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## Tennessee Traveler (Mar 7, 2017)

Why make it so difficult? Simply the train cannot depart until the scheduled time. So this makes trains simply stop at a station if it arrives early due to the time change and wait until the appropriate departure time If it was 3:20 Standard time on the 11th, it's departure time is 3:20 Daylight Saving time on the 12th. Generally trains going east to west may actually be early if crossing time zone and the trains going west to east will generally be late if crossing a time zone. Nevertheless, it all works out once all trains in transit at 2 AM on the morning of the 12th reach their final destination. All trains originating on the 12th after 3 AM will leave on time on daylight saving time.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 7, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > This wreaks of Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity thought experiments such as when trying to capture a car traveling at nearly the speed of light when it attempts to drive through a building with entrance and exit doors closing instantaneously and simultaneously as soon as the car enters the building. The car isn't captured - it's already gone.
> ...


Here you go. It'll give you a good headache. Even better, it's a train in a tunnel.



jb


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 7, 2017)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Why make it so difficult? Simply the train cannot depart until the scheduled time. So this makes trains simply stop at a station if it arrives early due to the time change and wait until the appropriate departure time If it was 3:20 Standard time on the 11th, it's departure time is 3:20 Daylight Saving time on the 12th. Generally trains going east to west may actually be early if crossing time zone and the trains going west to east will generally be late if crossing a time zone. Nevertheless, it all works out once all trains in transit at 2 AM on the morning of the 12th reach their final destination. All trains originating on the 12th after 3 AM will leave on time on daylight saving time.


The complication is how Amtrak schedules a train in ARROW during the missing hour and how Amtrak reports whether the train is late or not and by how much, at subsequent stations.

jb


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## chakk (Mar 8, 2017)

Actually, all of those overnight trains still on the road in the wee hours of 12 March 2017 will become one hour LATE at 1:00 AM (except in Arizona and Indiana) --regardless of which direction they are traveling. And they are unlikely to arrive at their next station -- or any of the remaining stations to the final destination for that run -- unless there is enough padding in the schedule to make up the one-hour delay that takes effect at 1:00 AM on 12 March 2017.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 8, 2017)

chakk said:


> Actually, all of those overnight trains still on the road in the wee hours of 12 March 2017 will become one hour LATE at 1:00 AM (except in Arizona and Indiana) --regardless of which direction they are traveling. And they are unlikely to arrive at their next station -- or any of the remaining stations to the final destination for that run -- unless there is enough padding in the schedule to make up the one-hour delay that takes effect at 1:00 AM on 12 March 2017.


The clocks change at 2:00 am, not 1:00 am. So a train due to arrive at 2:01 am, not 1:00 am, will arrive late.


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## railiner (Mar 8, 2017)

If that time change is too complicated to understand for some...imagine being on a trans-pacific flight over the date line on the same night the clocks change....


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## jis (Mar 8, 2017)

railiner said:


> If that time change is too complicated to understand for some...imagine being on a trans-pacific flight over the date line on the same night the clocks change....


Imagined and actually done that. The time change is inconsequential until you arrive at your destination, which is when one really needs the local time. No one cares what the local time is in the area that one is flying over. So it is a non issue. 
And even after arriving you set your watch back by a day and a number of hours forward or back depending on where your origin and destination is, assuming flying from Asia or Australia to the Americas. I just let the mobile phone auto set itself after landing, and voila! The right thing just happens.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > John Bobinyec said:
> ...


Thanks for the link! I've been attempting to fully digest it ever since you posted this. Light speed is a concept that's fairly easy to accept but surprisingly difficult to fully comprehend.


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## tomfuller (Mar 8, 2017)

My wife and I were on the SWC one November when the clocks were turning back an hour. We arrived in Barstow 40 minutes late and waited 20 minutes and then left on time.

This Sunday morning, all Amtrak trains will be at least an hour late (maybe more if they were running late going in).


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 8, 2017)

If Michigan and Texas pass their DST elimination laws, I wonder if other states will follow?


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## TinCan782 (Mar 8, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> John Bobinyec, on 07 Mar 2017 - 5:50 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always wondered how the Moffat and Cascade Tunnel doors worked!


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> Texas has several strong bills in the Texas Legislature (House and Senate) to eliminate DST in Texas.


&



Lonestar648 said:


> If Michigan and Texas pass their DST elimination laws, I wonder if other states will follow?


Wouldn't it be easier and more efficient to implement year round DST than to do away with it?


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## railiner (Mar 8, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > Texas has several strong bills in the Texas Legislature (House and Senate) to eliminate DST in Texas.
> ...


I would like them to eliminate the seasonal time change. It doesn't matter to me whether its standard or advanced time....just leave it alone, and eliminate the change.

If people are bothered by it being 'dark' early in the morning as a result, all they have to do is change the hours of the school or whatever else is impacted....


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## SarahZ (Mar 8, 2017)

I'd rather have it get dark a bit earlier at night, which would mean no more springing forward.

Given southwestern Michigan's position in the time zone, it stays light until 9:30-10:00. It makes it hard to settle down and do the nighttime relaxation thing before bed.


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## A Voice (Mar 8, 2017)

railiner said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Lonestar648 said:
> ...


This whole issue largely strikes me as half a dozen of one, and six of the other.

For every person who dislikes seasonal time changes, there will be someone else absolutely livid at the idea of changing school hours. If we should ever abolish Daylight Savings Time, _somebody_ will start complaining about the continental United States being divided into four time zones, and then want to change that too.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 9, 2017)

Really, people are upset about daylight savings time? Some people apparently have nothing else to think about.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 9, 2017)

MikefromCrete said:


> Really, people are upset about daylight savings time? Some people apparently have nothing else to think about.


Nearly everything I touch self-updates for DST these days. There's almost no definable effort required to keep up with it anymore. Yet as the process of adjusting to time changes becomes easier the chorus of the disgruntled grows louder. So many more important things to worry about but to my fellow Texans time changes are a sin against our "national" pride and arrogance.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 9, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Really, people are upset about daylight savings time? Some people apparently have nothing else to think about.
> ...


Even Amtrak's schedule finagling will probably become easier and make more sense if and when they ever migrate off of ARROW.

jb


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## railiner (Mar 9, 2017)

If time changes are eliminated, then AU will lose one of its perennial topics to debate...let's see...smoking, tipping, etc....


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## jis (Mar 9, 2017)

railiner said:


> If time changes are eliminated, then AU will lose one of its perennial topics to debate...let's see...smoking, tipping, etc....


The debate could of course continue endlessly asking to bring the DST back. You know how doggedly persistent some can be at AU! Trains from Philly to everywhere anyone?


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 9, 2017)

The question about eliminating Standard time and having DST all year is prohibited by federal law. This was brought out a couple years ago when states were considering the elimination of the time change. The states are only allowed to have DST or no DST, the Fed also establishes when DST starts and stops.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2017)

jis said:


> I just let the mobile phone auto set itself after landing, and voila! The right thing just happens.


The right thing just happens, eh?

Could you do me a favor and board an airplane a few hours before the polls close in the next election?


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## Montreal Ltd (Mar 9, 2017)

Didn't the US have prolonged or year round DST in the late 1970s, during the oil "shortage"? We Canucks enjoyed watching the Late Show at a reasonable hour.


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## JayPea (Mar 9, 2017)

Montreal Ltd said:


> Didn't the US have prolonged or year round DST in the late 1970s, during the oil "shortage"? We Canucks enjoyed watching the Late Show at a reasonable hour.


We did during the 1973-74 time frame. I remember going to school in the dark the winter of 1973-74.


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## ScouseAndy (Mar 10, 2017)

Perhaps Trump can fix this by following Russia's lead and have all trains run on Moscow time at least then all Putins KGB operatives will know what time the train is due even if no one else does lol


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## ehbowen (Mar 10, 2017)

railiner said:


> This whole issue largely strikes me as half a dozen of one, and six of the other.
> 
> For every person who dislikes seasonal time changes, there will be someone else absolutely livid at the idea of changing school hours. If we should ever abolish Daylight Savings Time, _somebody_ will start complaining about the continental United States being divided into four time zones, and then want to change that too.


There are at least a couple of people who seriously want to abolish all time zones everywhere....


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## jis (Mar 10, 2017)

Daylight Saving Time actually does none of the things that it is supposed to do, and it is just a pain in the butt for a whole lot of people. ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-10/proof-daylight-saving-time-is-dumb-dangerous-and-costly


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## A Voice (Mar 10, 2017)

jis said:


> Daylight Saving Time actually does none of the things that it is supposed to do, and it is just a pain in the butt for a whole lot of people. ...
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-10/proof-daylight-saving-time-is-dumb-dangerous-and-costly


Daylight Savings Time is supposed to give us an extra hour of daylight in the evenings. How exactly does it *not* do this?


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 10, 2017)

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Daylight Saving Time actually does none of the things that it is supposed to do, and it is just a pain in the butt for a whole lot of people. ...
> ...


Beats me but I did find this claim inside the very first link...



> Representing the first meta-analysis in this literature, we collect 162 estimates from 44 studies and find that the mean reported estimate indicates modest energy savings: 0.34% during the days when DST applies.


That may not seem like much of a savings at first glance, and indeed that's how the authors presented it, but when you're talking about a country that is home to over 300 million people and is responsible for something like 20% of the world's total energy consumption it's huge.

I'd be curious if an anti-DST person can explain how changing the rules at the state level is going to make things easier for those of us who travel and communicate across state lines. In the past you only had to remember a couple of rogue states that refused to join with the vast majority. Now with a new wave of state-level repeals those of us visit and communicate with other states will need to start consulting new DST maps showing which states that have abandoned DST which have not. Not just one or twice a year, but every time we need to travel to or communicate with a state we haven't checked recently. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then again this is America, so maybe we should just outlaw seasons altogether? None of us is as dumb as all of us.


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## railiner (Mar 11, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > This whole issue largely strikes me as half a dozen of one, and six of the other.
> ...


That certainly does not include myself....I think that the current system of approximately 24 time zones based on solar time around the globe is just fine...

I just do not like the advancing of the clocks by season....

And a side note....that quote enclosed, is not mine....but "A Voice".....see post #43.....


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 11, 2017)

The cost to maintain DST is massive. I know with the company I used to work with, there was specific team assigned to test every piece of software, middleware, firmware, and hardware for every component our company developed for proper DST operation. That was a 365 day a year task since new developments are being made almost daily. Just one inconspicuous piece of hidden middle ware that doesn't handle the change properly can bring an entire major computer system to its knees. There were more issues with DST than any other issue on the trouble reports. Thing of the money that could be saved by eliminating DST. When the last change to DST by Congress was passed, it put our company and our competitors into a frenzy. ALL development had to stop for months while all the development folks focused on the DST changes for our existing customers. We were in the field loading software updates 7 days a week without a break, even weeks after the first change occurred. Congress stated how this was saving everyone money, when it actually cost businesses millions and millions that they could not recoup. Ask anyone in these groups, they would ALL say eliminate DST, the seasonal changes are a killer in technology.


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## PVD (Mar 11, 2017)

Probably the biggest software issue arose when we moved the dates from where they were. Quite a bit of equipment was set up to change automatically, you had 2 choices on or off for changing at the standard date and time. Older s/ware that did not have a flexible parameter for when the change occurred needed to be "off" and changed manually, otherwise they would be changing on the wrong day. Twice a year I used to set up a "midnight run" for a tech to visit a small group of hotels with older software in their telephone and property management links, to make sure wake up calls were delivered properly. They took that very seriously.


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## railiner (Mar 11, 2017)

Shades of "Y2K"?


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## amamba (Mar 11, 2017)

SarahZ said:


> I'd rather have it get dark a bit earlier at night, which would mean no more springing forward.
> 
> Given southwestern Michigan's position in the time zone, it stays light until 9:30-10:00. It makes it hard to settle down and do the nighttime relaxation thing before bed.


i agree. If we have to do away with the switch, I would rather live on standard time. Sunrise would be like 8 am in December on daylight savings time.


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## PVD (Mar 11, 2017)

A discussion of Y2k (or as I knew it "cha-ching") as relates to software, could extend this thread even further off topic and there are so many stories it could be like the viewliner thread. I know I have dozens, but for sanity's sake I'm going to pass.


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## jis (Mar 11, 2017)

The most bizarre DST related event was when Israel decided one week before the schedule change date to shift the date by several weeks. This caused a huge pain for a whole bunch of people who had scheduled meetings that involved participants from other countries. Which is doubly silly because Israel is far enough south to not really make much of a difference whether they have DST or not.

The two upcoming weeks will be confusing for a lot of us who have meetings scheduled with participants from Europe, since Europe does not change for another two weeks.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 8, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> This year I remembered a conversation that member acelafan and I had about Amtrak's time adjustments when Standard Time becomes Daylight Time, so I'm adjusting schedules accordingly.
> 
> This is not about the Arizona or Indiana time zones. It's about the missing hour. As you know, on Sunday, 3/12/2017, at 2.01 a.m., time instantaneously jumps ahead to 3.01 a.m. Consider train 48 which normally arrives at Toledo at 2.50 a.m. and departs at 3.20 a.m. Within ARROW, the heart of Amtrak's reservation system, time is, for the lack of a better word, "undefined" between 2.01 a.m. and 3.01 a.m. Therefore, ARROW does not allow any train to be scheduled to arrive or depart during that period. On the morning of the twelfth, that arrival time cannot exist within ARROW. So, what to do? Well, Amtrak rescheduled the train to arrive at Toledo at 3.50 a.m. and they left the departure time as 3.20 a.m. In other words, the train is scheduled to depart 30 minutes before it is scheduled to arrive.
> 
> ...


This year, 2018, Amtrak solved the problem of the missing hour. Starting at 2.01 a.m. on 3/11/2018, it actually adjusted the schedule by adding an hour to all the remaining station stops, for that particular train. (I think it missed 58 and 59, though).

jb


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## jis (Mar 8, 2018)

The State of Florida has started the ball rolling to get rid of the Spring and Fall time change in Florida. They want to permanently stay in EDT or in the Atlantic Time Zone.

A Federal law needs changing to have that take effect. Expect a bill in the next Congress to make it happen. The Florida State Legislature overwhelmingly passed the motion to do so, and Governor Scott is expected to sign on.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html


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## pennyk (Mar 8, 2018)

jis said:


> The State of Florida has started the ball rolling to get rid of the Spring and Fall time change in Florida. They want to permanently stay in EDT or in the Atlantic Time Zone.
> 
> A Federal law needs changing to have that take effect. Expect a bill in the next Congress to make it happen. The Florida State Legislature overwhelmingly passed the motion to do so, and Governor Scott is expected to sign on.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html


some Floridians are NOT happy about this.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 8, 2018)

I hope the states all abandon DST or else it will be a royal mess trying to keep track of what time it is when you travel from state to state, if some of them observe DST and others don't - like a patchwork quilt.

jb


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## jis (Mar 8, 2018)

Florida would merely join Arizona and Hawaii. This Floridian is quite happy about it. Florida is so far south that DST is mostly a pointless gyration anyway. The proposed change was overwhelmingly supported by the legislature and as far as I know general sentiment is in support of it. Of course there will be some that would not support it. That is true for almost anything.

What is interesting is that Florida has chosen to go for the Atlantic Time Zone rather than the Eastern Time Zone.


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## pennyk (Mar 8, 2018)

I think abandoning DST and staying in the Eastern Time Zone would be a better move. I do not like the idea of being in a different time zone than the rest of the east coast during the winter. I think it will cause a lot of confusion when trying to watch network tv or travel on Amtrak and it will cause school children to go to school in the dark for many months.


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## Rail Freak (Mar 8, 2018)

jis said:


> The State of Florida has started the ball rolling to get rid of the Spring and Fall time change in Florida. They want to permanently stay in EDT or in the Atlantic Time Zone.
> 
> A Federal law needs changing to have that take effect. Expect a bill in the next Congress to make it happen. The Florida State Legislature overwhelmingly passed the motion to do so, and Governor Scott is expected to sign on.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html


I would be "One Happy Camper"!!!


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## jis (Mar 8, 2018)

pennyk said:


> I think abandoning DST and staying in the Eastern Time Zone would be a better move. I do not like the idea of being in a different time zone than the rest of the east coast during the winter. I think it will cause a lot of confusion when trying to watch network tv or travel on Amtrak and it will cause school children to go to school in the dark for many months


Oddly enough, at least out here in the Space Coast, almost every parent of school going children that I talked to preferred to have their kids get on school buses in the dark in exchange for having more light during the evening after school activities. I have never had a kid so I have no specific position on this matter myself.

As for network TV, haven't touched that stuff directly in years. Anything I watch is typically time shifted to a convenient time suing DVR, or watched using streaming over the internet. More so the latter lately than the former.

As for traveling, always use local time and things will work out fine. It is no different than traveling to a different country or to a different time zone within the US.

I don't see this causing any more confusion here than it causes in Arizona, which is, really not that much.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> I hope the states all abandon DST or else it will be a royal mess trying to keep track of what time it is when you travel from state to state, if some of them observe DST and others don't - like a patchwork quilt.


&



jis said:


> Florida would merely join Arizona and Hawaii. This Floridian is quite happy about it. Florida is so far south that DST is mostly a pointless gyration anyway. […] What is interesting is that Florida has chosen to go for the Atlantic Time Zone rather than the Eastern Time Zone.


It sounds like Florida is actually trying to abandon standard time and make daylight savings time permanent. Which sort of makes sense since in my experience most people who think they're complaining about daylight savings time are actually complaining about standard time instead. Calling Florida's proposal Atlantic Time is no more logical than claiming Arizona is on Pacific Time. Pacific Time changes twice each year, Arizona time does not. If federal law is amended to allow Florida's proposal we'll likely end up with more states switching rules and time zones in an arbitrary fashion. How that is supposed to help people keep track of time in any given location is beyond my comprehension.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2018)

I have no idea what it will be called. The Time Zone they are going for is UTC-4.

In the world around North America, such a time zone is called either Eastern Daylight Time or Atlantic Time.

Of these EDT is clearly only in the winter.

Atlantic Time Zone is used all year round in Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, most of the Eastern Caribbean Islands and Quebec East of 63 deg West Lon.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2018)

Right now I only have to worry about keeping track of AZ time. HI, PR, VIR, etc. are relatively tiny outliers that have little if any impact on my daily life. But FL time does. As well as dozens of other states that may follow in their footsteps. Locations that are likely to soon have the option to independently choose (1) permanent daylight savings time, (2) permanent standard time, or (3) retain a combination of both. Locations that will likely make this decision independently of each other and based on their own provincial mindset and cultural proclivity. Anyone who thinks this is going to make things better needs to first explain how it won't make things worse.


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## KmH (Mar 8, 2018)

pennyk said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The State of Florida has started the ball rolling to get rid of the Spring and Fall time change in Florida. They want to permanently stay in EDT or in the Atlantic Time Zone.
> ...


Some _anywhere_ would not be happy for DST to go away.

It has been shown by many different types of studies that DST _causes more problems_ than it solves, and _doesn't_ save any power. Get rid of it.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2018)

KmH said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


The studies point in both directions depending on which aspects you're attempt to quantify. With regard to energy consumption, if you remove the changing of time and simply compare permanent daylight savings time to permanent standard time daylight savings time wins by 1-2 percentage points. Which may not sound like a lot, but in the case of the world's least efficient industrialized democracy a few percentage points is a huge variance in terms of megawatts generated.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 8, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> This year, 2018, Amtrak solved the problem of the missing hour. Starting at 2.01 a.m. on 3/11/2018, it actually adjusted the schedule by adding an hour to all the remaining station stops, for that particular train.


Essentially they are following the pattern that airlines have been using for years (decades?). For example, a red-eye flight that leaves SFO every night at 11 p.m. and arrives into JFK at 7 a.m. will simply be scheduled to arrive into JFK at 8 a.m. on the night that clocks move forward. They don't make the flight an hour late...they simple adjust the arrival time. Of course, it's a lot easier to do that with a flight that has only one arrival time, versus a train that may have 15+ stops to make after the time change.


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## west point (Mar 8, 2018)

So if Pensacola goes along with this change you will have a 2 hour difference between Pensacola / Panama City and Dothan / Mobile. and if in winter 2 hours difference if all Florida went to same time EDT in winter ? Does this sound like Russia to anyone ?


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## jis (Mar 8, 2018)

Pensacola will remain in CDT (i.e. EST) all year according to what passed in the Florida legislature. Florida will still have two time zones. They will just be perpetually in daylight time.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## JRR (Mar 9, 2018)

jis said:


> Pensacola will remain in CDT (i.e. EST) all year according to what passed in the Florida legislature. Florida will still have two time zones. They will just be perpetually in daylight time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum



Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## JRR (Mar 9, 2018)

Correct. People always forget about the Panhandle. We have always had two time zones. Now they will both be always in daylight savings time if Congress acts.

While I personally like Daylight Savings Time, I understand why some people don’t.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 9, 2018)

jis said:


> Atlantic Time Zone is used all year round in Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, most of the Eastern Caribbean Islands and Quebec East of 63 deg West Lon.


The Provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and most of Labrador are also on Atlantic Time.

We will move to Atlantic Daylight Time this weekend.....so we will still be an hour ahead of Eastern Daylight at the Maine-New Brunswick border.

A little further east.....the Island of Newfoundland has one of those unique half-hour time zones and is a half-hour ahead of Atlantic Time.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 9, 2018)

Last year when Texas and Michigan considered eliminating the time changes, they found that Federal Law prohibits staying on DST all the time, so the lawmakers found their option was to eliminate DST, staying on Standard Time all year, or make no changes. Since the majority of both states houses wanted DST all year, both efforts were tabled and died.


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2018)

I don’t have strong feelings over Standard vs Daylight Saving time, but the change between them twice a year is a pain in the neck. Pick one and stick with it.

While we’re at it, expand the Central time zone to cover the whole East coast, and the Mountain to cover the west. All of CONUS in two time zones an hour apart.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2018)

Federal law has to be changed to make such a change. Nothing new there. Most news articles reporting this have said so too. The two states didn’t bother to try to change the federal law in question. It has been changed in the past. It can be done again should Congress and the President decide to do so.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 9, 2018)

Ryan said:


> I dont have strong feelings over Standard vs Daylight Saving time, but the change between them twice a year is a pain in the neck. Pick one and stick with it.
> 
> While were at it, expand the Central time zone to cover the whole East coast, and the Mountain to cover the west. All of CONUS in two time zones an hour apart.


This!!!


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## daybeers (Mar 9, 2018)

Ryan said:


> I don’t have strong feelings over Standard vs Daylight Saving time, but the change between them twice a year is a pain in the neck. Pick one and stick with it.
> 
> While we’re at it, expand the Central time zone to cover the whole East coast, and the Mountain to cover the west. All of CONUS in two time zones an hour apart.


Only one hour apart? Besides being less confusing, how is that better than the three hour difference that exists now? Please bear in mind I don't know too much about the specifics of time zones.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 9, 2018)

Better yet, do what the Russian railroads do. 11 timezones? No way. Just 1.

Clock says 5 am and the sun is directly overhead, high noon? No problem!


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2018)

daybeers said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t have strong feelings over Standard vs Daylight Saving time, but the change between them twice a year is a pain in the neck. Pick one and stick with it.
> ...


Easier for business. Right now, I can't start a meeting with my folks in San Diego before 10:00 or so, unless I'm going to ask them to dial in from home or wake up ridiculously early.

I'm rolling out of the office when it's lunchtime out there. If they need something during the afternoon, I'm gone (in reality, I'm checking my emails and taking occasional calls until after dinner).

Also significantly easier when traveling - while a 3 hour time difference isn't too crushing, an hour is much easier to deal with.


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## west point (Mar 9, 2018)

You



Ryan said:


> I don’t have strong feelings over Standard vs Daylight Saving time, but the change between them twice a year is a pain in the neck. Pick one and stick with it.
> 
> While we’re at it, expand the Central time zone to cover the whole East coast, and the Mountain to cover the west. All of CONUS in two time zones an hour apart.


You have it wrong. Before WW-2 the central time zone extended into some of the Carolinas as well as all of Tennessee. Parts of Georgia were as well. So don't expect to go backwards !


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2018)

What exactly do you think that I have wrong? I didn’t say anything about what time zones were before.


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## SarahZ (Mar 10, 2018)

I will never forget a customer who refused to believe me when I said I was in the Eastern time zone.

"Michigan is in Central time."

"Just a small part of the upper peninsula, ma'am. The rest of the state is on Eastern time."

"No. You're on Central time."

"Well, I live here, so I'm fairly positive I know what time zone I'm in."






That said, I do wish Michigan was on Central time. I found a map once that shows where the Eastern/Central time zone break really should be, and we were well within it. We end up with some pretty goofy sunrise/sunset times because we're in the "wrong" zone.


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## JRR (Mar 10, 2018)

My senior year in high school, I was a delegate to Kentucky Boy’s State in Frankfort, Ky.

The Legislature was debating the question of time zones with the thought of putting the whole state in one time zone.

The Western part of the state was on CST and the Eastern part on EST.

The debate was so heated so that for the period that we were there, the Capitol buildings were officially on Rocky Mountain Standard Time while the City was on EST.

It made schedules of meetings and events quite challenging because the time depended upon which building or location the event was located.

It appears that the subject of times zones remains something we still have difficulty in agreeing upon!.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## TinCan782 (Mar 10, 2018)

Some minutiae... apparently its daylight saving time as in the topic title...

*Daylight Saving Time (DST) is often wrongly referred to as “Daylight Savings,” with an “s” at the end. *

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/daylight-savings-time.html


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