# Curiousity...



## Linda T (Dec 19, 2012)

Okay, so I was doing some looking around after reading a post on FB, and I'm rather curious. Why is it that I can book from HFD to LAX via the LSL and TE (using my AGR points), but I can't book the exact same train, the exact same day from TOL to LAX? I can book it in segments like I did) I've tried calling AGR a few times and each time the answer has been NO. But now I know this, I'm just curious, am I missing something? Is this worth mentioning to them? I already plan to start my trip in TOL, and have a coach seat to CHI, and roomette to all points beyond (it's only three hours, but it would mean a free breakfast instead of paying for it).

TOL is in the same zone as CHI, so it should be a two zone redemption from TOL to LAX to SEA, and then another two zone from SEA to CHI to CIN. But to go from TOL to CHI is not available as part of the two zone redemption west. This is the first time I'm REALLY frustrated with Amtrak (though it's not a make or break the relationship kind of thing). I'm just curious, what am I missing?

TIA,

Linda.


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## the_traveler (Dec 19, 2012)

Actually, it's because city pairs are actually programmed into the computer by (gasp!) humans! And we all know that no person would want to go from TOL to LAX via TX, any sane person would want to get there the fastest (via ABQ)! If you want to go to LAX on the TE, book to either Ontario or Pomona (the stations just before) and then BUY a COACH ticket from there to LAX (under $10) - and there is a 99.99999% chance you can stay in the room for the (far less than) 1 hour trip! :excl:


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## Ryan (Dec 19, 2012)

TOL - LAX shows up when you search on Amtrak.com on the TE (using both the CL and LSL).

There should be no reason that AGR prevents you from booking it that way.

(You can also book CL - EB(PDX) - CS)


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## Linda T (Dec 19, 2012)

I'll be darned, you're right! Okay, nevermind. I guess it's that I was going on from LAX up to VAN, WA. There they only let me take the EB, SWC, or CZ. I wish I could talk them into the TE, but that's where my problem was, duh! Thanks. I guess the problem is hand entering the options. Maybe one day they'll get that updated too.

To get from TOL to CHI I'm taking the LSL coach.

My first 2-zone redemption is CHI-LAX (TE) then CS to VAN.

My second 2-zone second redemption is VAN to SEA (500 Cascades), SEA to CHI (EB), then CHI to CIN (Card)

So my mistake. Sorry for my alarm, it's one of those days. :unsure: While I'm still not 100% pleased with the situation, I'm not as frustrated. All's happy again in my relationship with Amtrak.


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## jis (Dec 19, 2012)

Frankly I have always been under the impression that it is removal of spurious city pairs that involves humans. A simple graph analysis program will give you every possible path between two nodes in the graph. Some of those paths may not make much sense in reality.


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## Trogdor (Dec 19, 2012)

The connections database is very complicated, and requires manual intervention both to add and remove connections.

I'm by no means an expert on this area of Arrow's internal workings, but from what I understand, connections have to be programmed either by train or by city pair. If it's programmed by train, that means any and every city on a train from its origin point to the connection point will be available, and connect at that connection point to the next train (and every destination on that train).

For multiple connections, they have to be programmed as such. For example, there might be a connection from 98 to 49 at NYP, and a connection from 49 to 3 at CHI, but Arrow won't automatically recognize 98-49-3 via NYP and CHI. That would be a separate entry.

The problem comes when you don't want every origin point on a train to show a connection. There are a number of reasons for this, and I won't pretend to know what the specific issue might be with 49-421 (though 49-421-14 is certainly not a common routing). However, an example might be train 67 to train 51. If you build a train-to-train connection at WAS, then Arrow will provide every O&D pair, including cities that 51 already serves (NYP, NWK, PHL, BAL, etc.). This has a number of downsides for both the customer (thinking they have to catch a 3 am train and connect when they could take one at 6:45), and for Amtrak (excessive connections possibilities, when passengers search for itineraries at Amtrak.com, can cause some technical glitches that I won't go into here).

The alternative, then, is to program connections by city pair, to eliminate connections that you don't want to show. The downside of this is that _every single possible O&D connection must be entered manually_. When you consider the dozens of stations that each train serves, and the many possibilities of O&D combinations (Erie to Santa Barbara, Toledo to Salinas, Erie to Salinas, Buffalo to Eugene, Poughkeepsie to Klamath Falls, etc.), the number of connections that must be programmed can easily reach into the thousands (and remember, they must all be entered manually, one at a time).

Therefore, the best suggestion out there is to force a routing using multi-city (if a connection is valid, multi-city will allow it). This leaves out folks that want to do AGR awards on round-the-country-for-cheap routings, but, oh well.


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## Shanghai (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't know Linda's route details, but since the TE only runs to LAX 3 days per week, if the CHI to LAX

route happens to be on a day the TE does not run, Arrow will not show it as an option.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 19, 2012)

Wasn't it posted that the AGR rules changed so that now you can't do long complicated trips etc.


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## Ispolkom (Dec 19, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Wasn't it posted that the AGR rules changed so that now you can't do long complicated trips etc.


Even if AGR made such a change, I wouldn't expect their agents to consistently enforce the change.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 20, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Wasn't it posted that the AGR rules changed so that now you can't do long complicated trips etc.


You can still use AGR for long and complicated trips as much as you want, so long as you're willing to accept that the country is randomly divided in up to _*five zones*_ each way. Think I'm joking? Give them a call. Give them _*five calls*_. Airline awards can get extremely complicated, but at least you can parse them out and figure out how they work and where the best values are. On the other hand AGR awards are extremely simple. You call them up and the agent rolls a four sided die. Whatever number comes up is how many zones you'll be charged. Some agents have apparently lost their four sided dice and are now using six sided dice instead.


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## Linda T (Dec 20, 2012)

The whole TOL to CHI thing is really moot, I mean a coach ticket was only something like $39 (and a 3 hour trip). As I said, I made a mistake when I saw that I could book from TOL to LAX -- my immediate thought was that that was where I'm going, forgetting that my trip was going on up to VAN, Washington. I can book CHI to VAN, but I can't book TOL to VAN, which is a bit frustrating. But everything works out for the best because I have a coach to CHI then everything's a guaranteed connection AND I somehow managed to get back to CHI on a Tuesday, so I can bring the Cardinal home to CIN and then coach to HUN.

The irony of it all is, Amtrak wanted me to take the Cascades 506 from VAN to SEA (that's the only schedule in the system for my cities), which would arrive 55 minutes before the EB leaves. Yeah, like I trust that. A friend from the Seattle area suggested I try to get them to okay the 500 and they did (apparently it's some kind of allowable exchange or something like that). I'll get to SEA at noon now, much more reasonable. I've seen enough Amtrak delays to know I want as much time as possible between my connections.


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## SubwayNut (Dec 23, 2012)

I did the 506 to Empire Builder about 6 years ago. It was running an hour late (although the layover i think was longer) Arriving in Seattle they held the Empire Builder for us, it was clearly something they rutinely do. We left maybe ten minutes late, the delay mainly transferring baggage. My bag did show up in Chicago fine!


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## PaulM (Dec 26, 2012)

I just booked a 2-zone roomette AGR trip from QCY to SAN that seems to violate some of the rules given in earlier posts.

1. "you can't do long complicated trips". My routing: Illinois Zephyr, Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, Pacific Surfliner.

2. AGR can only book routes that show up at Amtrak.com. Although Amtrak.com showed the EB, CS, and PSL as the *first* CHI-SAN option, it showed only IZ, SWC, and PSL for QCY to SAN

3. Amtrak.com only shows routes "sane" people would take. When I mention the itinerary to friends and relatives, they think I'm a bit eccentric, even after I point out that I am getting free room and board for 4 days and 3 nights.


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## PPorro (Dec 26, 2012)

Would EB work for Elko? Could be interesting. Coming in from the coast is a better time of day, even if later. I just don't understand getting off the CZ at 3AM and then the motel complications for the 8 hours until check-in. Eastbound CZ comes in at 9PM.

So EB to Portland, CS to Sac, CZ to Elko? Two zones? Can I do that?



PaulM said:


> I just booked a 2-zone roomette AGR trip from QCY to SAN that seems to violate some of the rules given in earlier posts.
> 
> 1. "you can't do long complicated trips". My routing: Illinois Zephyr, Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, Pacific Surfliner.
> 
> ...


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## tricia (Dec 29, 2012)

PaulM said:


> I just booked a 2-zone roomette AGR trip from QCY to SAN that seems to violate some of the rules given in earlier posts.
> 
> 1. "you can't do long complicated trips". My routing: Illinois Zephyr, Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, Pacific Surfliner.
> 
> ...


On the "sanity" front: Last week I booked a 2-zone AGR ticket from ELP to Toccoa, GA (north of Atlanta)... on the TX Eagle ELP to Chicago, the Capitol Ltd Chicago to DC, and the Crescent DC to Toccoa.

Back when I made the travel plans that take me to El Paso, I didn't know there'd be track work south of Atlanta resulting in a truncated Crescent (no ATL-NOL service) on the day I would have needed to travel the "sane" way; i.e., on the Sunset Ltd ELP to NOL, then the Crescent NOL to Toccoa.

Not that I'm complaining. I've never taken the TX Eagle, and spending four days and nights on a train (instead of two nights, three days) is OK by me.


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## the_traveler (Dec 29, 2012)

I am not "sane" - never was, never claimed to be and never will be!  If I booked an AGR award trip that is NOT complicated, then you know something is wrong with me! :wacko:


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## GG-1 (Dec 29, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I am not "sane" - never was, never claimed to be and never will be!  If I booked an AGR award trip that is NOT complicated, then you know something is wrong with me! :wacko:


True, Recently he booked Rhode Island to Philadelphis via Los Angeles!
The TE is a nice train ride.

Aloha


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## the_traveler (Dec 29, 2012)

And I've also flown from Boston to Albany, NY via California - with a (then named) San Diagen ride between SAN and LAX thrown in for good measure! :giggle:


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## Acela150 (Dec 30, 2012)

GG-1 said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I am not "sane" - never was, never claimed to be and never will be!  If I booked an AGR award trip that is NOT complicated, then you know something is wrong with me! :wacko:
> ...


He is called the_traveler, and the AGR_Guru.


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