# Inconsistent Service: A bigger problem than the food?



## Nick Farr (Aug 31, 2020)

One of the consistent things that creeps up in discussions of Long Distance Dining is the inconsistent quality of the On-Board Service.

If we really care about LD trains and seeing them continue, *On-Board Service needs to be fixed*.

If you ride the LD trains long enough, you'll run across OBS that are absolutely passionate about their job, OBS that treat customers like they're an inconvenience and OBS that basically get the job done without too much fuss.

I want to emphasize that I don't believe the problem is the union. The problem is the lack of supervision. Simply replacing a unionized workforce with a disposable workforce is not the answer. The problem is that the OBS that are complacent drag down the OBS that really care about their jobs. Management has very little way of knowing which is which or coaching out OBS that aren't doing their jobs. Bad union workers can be fired, it just takes proper documentation. I believe that once management starts holding OBS accountable and weeding out the worst offenders, the rest of the employees will follow suit.

While respecting the unionized workforce, there are a few things that Amtrak can do to make sure OBS is consistent, high quality and able to enhance the amazing experience of LD travel:

1. Make the LSA (Lead Service Attendant) management, outside of the TWU (The Union). The LSA's job should be making sure that all the OBS are not just providing good service, but working together as a team. LSAs should be able to help OBS cross-train on each other's jobs, give feedback and provide training on new best practices and procedures. LSAs should also periodically visit sleeping car passenger customers to ask them about their experiences with their Sleeiping Car Attendant.

2. Consistency. *Raising the floor*: LSAs should not be mandating that passengers cannot have meals in their rooms. They should be providing all available options per policy and communicating that to the passengers. You provide options and let the customer decide, you don't treat the customer like cattle and herd them into your preferred option. A welcome card stating the policies in each room along with the schedule should be standard. The SCA should not be allowed to "turn off" the call buttons to the entire car, etc.

3. Welcome e-mail. Make sure that every sleeping car passenger receives a welcome e-mail from their SCA and LSA. Advise them of the services available and the expectations in place.

4. Survey e-mail. Make sure every sleeping car passenger gets a survey about their OBS, how they were greeted, what services were offered, what policies were followed, etc.

5. Letting good service take precedence over seniority. This is going to be the hardest to get accomplished with the union. Putting a consistent set of service metrics into place and allowing really great service staff to skip the seniority line while pushing mediocre or bad service staff out of the way is key to changing the OBS culture.

None of these things cost more money. If anything, by making the staff more efficient it will save money in the long run.

Thoughts?


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 31, 2020)

I have had, years ago now, LSA's that were doing exactly what you mention. I showed my application and support, by giving those LSA's a good tip, and occasionally, a glowing report to Amtrak customer service.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 31, 2020)

Basically, I'm happy enough if "they get the job done without too much fuss," and I'm pleasantly surprised if they do a bit more. I don't think you can ask any more from service workers in today's business culture of understaffing. OBS that might "go the extra mile" when the train is not very busy might just have to forgo some of the extras during busy peak seasons. So I'm not sure how much consistency you can expect, unless you force it to the lowest common denominator.

Example: Lat fall on my trip to the Gathering I got to sample flex dining on the Capitol Limited and on the Cardinal. On the Capitol, the SCA took our dinner order, and we needed a reservation, and had to line up in the Cross Country Cafe to have the tray handed to us. We didn't need to pre order or make a rezzie for breakfast, but we still had to line up and have the attendant serve us. On the Cardinal, the attendant served us at our seat at a table in the "sleeper-lounge" side of the cafe car. It was almost like traditional dining car service, except, of course, for the lower quality of the food and place setting. The difference? The Cap was running with at least two Superliner sleepers and appeared to be pretty close to full. The Cardinal had one Viewliner sleeper that had about 12 passengers. Of course the Cardinal attendant was able to give us better service, but at least the Capitol passengers got their meals. The moral of the story is, don't travel when the train is packed.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 31, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Basically, I'm happy enough if "they get the job done without too much fuss," and I'm pleasantly surprised if they do a bit more.



Same here. 

Honestly, I prefer to just make up my own room...and one day I'll start having them bring me coffee.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 1, 2020)

Consistency is not always that helpful in and of itself. Ryanair and Spirit Air have extremely consistent service but I wouldn't want Amtrak to copy them or use their service standards as any sort of template. In the same vein a move toward genuine consistency would further limit and restrict what the best SCA's and LSA's would be able to do for us in the future. What I think people are really getting at when they talk about consistency is _raising the floor_ of acceptable service without bringing the roof down on those who already do a good job.


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## VentureForth (Sep 1, 2020)

I think not-Acela business class is where the greatest inconstancies live. Perhaps because maybe are state run and some aren't. But that's just an excuse and the customers don't care.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 1, 2020)

There are issues based on crew base. Chicago is notorious for inconsistency. Los Angeles is better. The sca On 11 sanitized Roomettes between users. There was no evidence of sanitation on 28 after the car arrived on that mornings 27.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 1, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Consistency is not always that helpful in and of itself. Ryanair and Spirit Air have extremely consistent service but I wouldn't want Amtrak to copy them or use their service standards as any sort of template.



This


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## MARC Rider (Sep 1, 2020)

VentureForth said:


> I think not-Acela business class is where the greatest inconstancies live. Perhaps because maybe are state run and some aren't. But that's just an excuse and the customers don't care.


Do you mean Acela First class? Acela business class is basically coach -- there's no service at all, except that the conductor comes by and scans your ticket.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 1, 2020)

VentureForth said:


> I think not-Acela business class is where the greatest inconstancies live. Perhaps because maybe are state run and some aren't. But that's just an excuse and the customers don't care.


In re-reading this, I now realize that you probably meant business class on corridor trains. Actually, business class amenities don't need to be consistent nationwide, all they need to be is something better than the coach service on that particular train. Thus, the hard product on NEC business class gives you a seat that's about the same as an Amfleet 2 long distance coach, and also has window curtains like LD coach. It's certainly better than the Amfleet 1 coaches, in which the seats are closer together, and there's nothing to keep the sun out of your eyes. There's also no attendant or extra service in NEC BC, you can get a free drink at the cafe car. On the other hand, the Carolinian has a business class attendant, but, if you ask me, they could do without it, because you can't get your free BC drink except when the attendant comes by, and I'd rather just be able to go to the cafe car and get it when I want it. The Vermonter has a better BC hard product in that they have the 2-1 club seating, but there's no particular other extra service. (Although one not-so-busy morning, the cafe attendant on the Vermonter brought my breakfast order to my seat, though I did have to get up to order and pay for it beforehand.)

However, the main reason I pay for business class is that it's usually less crowded. Who needs service on a short trip, like between Baltimore and New York?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 1, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What I think people are really getting at when they talk about consistency is _raising the floor_ of acceptable service without bringing the roof down on those who already do a good job.



Maybe consistency is not the right way of saying: Stop lying to the customers. But yes, raising the floor it is.


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## Maglev (Sep 1, 2020)

Would you have a good attitude if your boss wanted the company to go out of business?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 1, 2020)

Maglev said:


> Would you have a good attitude if your boss wanted the company to go out of business?



Yes.

There's almost never an excuse for a bad attitude or doing a bad job. If you don't want to do the work, quit.

You really never know when the person you're serving will be interviewing you for your next job. Do you want them to remember you for having a bad attitude or being good at your job?


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## bms (Sep 1, 2020)

It is definitely annoying that every train, every station, and even every crew seems to have its own procedures. There is a standards manual that is very good, they just need to follow it.


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## Maglev (Sep 1, 2020)

I have always worked at service jobs, and have indeed worked on a "sinking ship" (Rosario Resort at the end of its Gemstone era and before bought by Gerry Barto in 2008). Management had no desire to serve customers well, and this attitude spread to the staff. The management at Amtrak seeks to reduce service on the long-distance network by 57%, and this is a cause for a bad attitude among employees. 

I have always tried to treat customers well because that is who I am. But the idea that someone might interview me for my next job never entered my mind until it was mentioned here.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 1, 2020)

bms said:


> It is definitely annoying that every train, every station, and even every crew seems to have its own procedures. There is a standards manual that is very good, they just need to follow it.



If the standards manual is very good and detailed as to what service is to be provided, then such ought to be followed by all service employees to the best of their ability. 

How to do so: my suggestions---

#1: All service employees are required to attend paid in-service instructional seminars regarding the Service Manual at their crew base on a regular basis. Maybe, once per year?

#2: The position of On-board Service Chief be re-established with the needed authority to insure that passengers are receiving the service for which they paid.

#3: Post-trip e-mail surveys sent to guests who have provided their e-mail addresses with encouragement to mention those crew members who met/exceeded the expectations of the guest as well as those crew members who need a "refresher" course in the Standards Manual.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 1, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> 3. Welcome e-mail. Make sure that every sleeping car passenger receives a welcome e-mail from their SCA and LSA. Advise them of the services available and the expectations in place.



This is an innovative idea regarding the services available and the expectations. For such an e-mail to come from their specific LSA and SCA may not be workable because of the unexpected unavailability of that crew member or for some other reason.

Having a brief "welcoming message" when one arrives in one's sleeper's accommodations, that includes the SCA's name, is a positive sign for a good trip. (I have found a card with my SCA's name welcoming me aboard on both of my Silver Meteor trips.)


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## Qapla (Sep 1, 2020)

The problem with such email surveys is that many people don't bother with them. Most of the people that do respond are the ones who want to complain - sometimes they even complain about good service simply because they like to complain.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 1, 2020)

Qapla said:


> The problem with such email surveys is that many people don't bother with them. Most of the people that do respond are the ones who want to complain - sometimes they even complain about good service simply because they like to complain.


Amtrak claims that most of the feedback about their new flexicon cafeteria mush is positive.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 1, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak claims that most of the feedback about their new flexicon cafeteria mush is positive.


Lies told often enough become the Norm!( see Politics 2020)


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> There are issues based on crew base. Chicago is notorious for inconsistency. Los Angeles is better. The sca On 11 sanitized Roomettes between users. There was no evidence of sanitation on 28 after the car arrived on that mornings 27.



I’ve had the absolute worst Amtrak customer service experiences from the LA crew base. Both in the dining car. 
I’ve also had great crews from LA.

In my personal experience New Orleans is the best, I’ve never had bad OBS crews from that base but could be all luck. Miami seems to be a good crew base as well.


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## Palmetto (Sep 1, 2020)

So: how does one know what crew base a crew member is from? I don't travel enough to be able to ascertain that, but I am curious. Just conversation with the crew? If so, one would have to travel a lot, it seems, to be able to make judgements on how members of a certain crew base perform. Enquiring minds want to know.


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## Sauve850 (Sep 1, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> So: how does one know what crew base a crew member is from? I don't travel enough to be able to ascertain that, but I am curious. Just conversation with the crew? If so, one would have to travel a lot, it seems, to be able to make judgements on how members of a certain crew base perform. Enquiring minds want to know.


In casual conversation I always ask members of the crew where they are based. Is it their home, family, what life is like on the road, etc. Im genuinely curious and it helps the trip go smoother.


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## RichieRich (Sep 1, 2020)

The AT has 5. I can tell by the voice when the crew chief makes announcements. Even though I do 10 r/t's a year...there's so many crew members, I don't run across the same people all the time as the odds aren't great you'd have the same one serving your particular car. Some are more "talkative" if they're ol-timers as we reminisce about the good-ol-daze on the AT.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 1, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> So: how does one know what crew base a crew member is from? I don't travel enough to be able to ascertain that, but I am curious. Just conversation with the crew? If so, one would have to travel a lot, it seems, to be able to make judgements on how members of a certain crew base perform. Enquiring minds want to know.



The different crew bases serve different trains. City of New Orleans is a NOL based crew for example.


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## rickycourtney (Sep 1, 2020)

This is a bit pedantic -- but important: The LSA is the person who's in charge of the dining car or the cafe car. If applicable, they supervise other service attendants (SA's) in the dining car, but really "Lead" means that they are financially responsible for running the cash drawer. The authority of the LSA ends at the doors of the dining car or cafe car. With all of the eastern dining cars, there's nobody to supervise.

The LSA role you describe is similar to the now eliminated "On-Board Service Chief" -- it was a union position and most members were long-tenured (expensive) employees who Amtrak saw as redundant.

I do like the idea of having someone responsible for supervising the on-board service employees in a management role.

I also think there is a discussion to be had about bringing all employees together under one union and breaking down the different roles. Other than union jurisdictional concerns, there's no reason why sleeping car attendants shouldn't be helping in the dining car making up and sending out meals.


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## Seaboard92 (Sep 1, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> So: how does one know what crew base a crew member is from? I don't travel enough to be able to ascertain that, but I am curious. Just conversation with the crew? If so, one would have to travel a lot, it seems, to be able to make judgements on how members of a certain crew base perform. Enquiring minds want to know.



New York, NY (NYP)
-Lake Shore Limited (New York Section)
-Cardinal
-Palmetto

Miami, FL (MIA)
-Silver Star
-Silver Meteor

New Orleans, LA (NOL)
-City of New Orleans
-Crescent

Chicago, IL (CHI)
-California Zephyr
-Lake Shore Limited (Boston Section)
-Empire Builder (Portland Section)
-Texas Eagle (I think so but not sure) 

Los Angeles, CA (LAX)
-Coast Starlight
-Southwest Chief
-Sunset Limited

Seattle, WA (SEA)
-Empire Builder (Seattle Section)

Washington, DC (WAS)
-Capitol Limited

Raleigh, NC (RGH)
-Carolinian (Day 1 RGH-CLT, Day 2 CLT-NYP, Day 3 NYP-RGH)

Now there are exceptions to rules as I've ran into a Seattle person on the Coast Starlight before who was filling in for someone who was sick and couldn't make it to work. So they flew someone in from Seattle.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 1, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Los Angeles, CA (LAX)
> -Coast Starlight
> -Southwest Chief
> -Sunset Limited



I thought sunset was NOL?


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## Seaboard92 (Sep 1, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought sunset was NOL?



I remember when I was talking to an attendant on the Coast Starlight back in Fall of 2017 she said she also crewed the Sunset. Now it could have changed. NOL is one of the better bases out there.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 1, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I remember when I was talking to an attendant on the Coast Starlight back in Fall of 2017 she said she also crewed the Sunset. Now it could have changed. NOL is one of the better bases out there.


The Sunset Crews are LAX Based.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 1, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> The Sunset Crews are LAX Based.



Well you learn something new everyday!

That’s another credit for LA crew base as I’ve had great service on the sunset.


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## Palmetto (Sep 2, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well you learn something new everyday!
> 
> That’s another credit for LA crew base as I’ve had great service on the sunset.




Me too, but I've only taken one trip. LSAs going both ways were superb. Heather in the dining car was out of this world. A vet, by the way.


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## Palmetto (Sep 2, 2020)

What about 448/449? Is Boston a base, by any chance?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> This is an innovative idea regarding the services available and the expectations. For such an e-mail to come from their specific LSA and SCA may not be workable because of the unexpected unavailability of that crew member or for some other reason.



It may not be workable, but the idea is that it's a fully automated message that appears to be "from" their LSA/SCA. The folks themselves would not be sending e-mails or even aware of it other than knowing, vaguely, that their passengers got a canned message with their pictures in it. If there is a reply feature, it would go to a centralized customer service area.


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## tricia (Sep 2, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> It may not be workable, but the idea is that it's a fully automated message that appears to be "from" their LSA/SCA. The folks themselves would not be sending e-mails or even aware of it other than knowing, vaguely, that their passengers got a canned message with their pictures in it. If there is a reply feature, it would go to a centralized customer service area.



Speaking just for myself, I get far too many "canned" messages already. Also, not everyone is going to be glued to their email as soon as they get on the train. Better perhaps to have the SCA drop a piece of paper or card in the room with her/his name and a sum-up of services available to passengers on the train--including instructions for how to summon or find the SCA.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> If you don't want to do the work, quit.


That's not really an option for most people. Maybe if we had some sort of Universal Basic Income...


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## MARC Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> If the standards manual is very good and detailed as to what service is to be provided, then such ought to be followed by all service employees to the best of their ability.
> 
> How to do so: my suggestions---
> 
> ...


The only one of these that I think would do any good is #2. Having some supervision would probably make a difference, but it has to be effective supervision. E-mail surveys are useless, it's just another piece of junk email cluttering the inbox that will be ignored by the vast majority of recipients. Training might be helpful, but, again, I've been to lots of in-service training where we all just zoned out and it went into one ear and out the other.

And the problem may be that the service manual is TOO detailed and you end up with OBS not being able to follow it to the letter and a small minority of "roomette lawyer" passengers who access to it getting picky about demanding stuff that actually interferes with safe and efficient operation of the train under the particular conditions at that time. 

To be quite honest, I've been riding long distance trains for quite a while, and I've never had really bad service. The worst things were the occasional dining car waiters that seem to "forget" about you (and for not all that long) and maybe the occasional dining car maitre D' that barks at you like a drill sergeant, or at least aren't obsequious. OK, and occasionally I come back from breakfast and my room wasn't made up. But I didn't ask them to do it, and when I do, it gets made up pretty quickly. But most of the time, the OBS gets the job done with no drama, even if they aren't groveling all over me, which is fine with me. I ride the train to get somewhere, not be fawned over by flunkies and lackeys.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Maglev said:


> I have always worked at service jobs, and have indeed worked on a "sinking ship" (Rosario Resort at the end of its Gemstone era and before bought by Gerry Barto in 2008). Management had no desire to serve customers well, and this attitude spread to the staff.


Due to government travel regulations, I was forced to fly Continental airlines in the Frank Lorenzo era (1986-1987). Same thing.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

tricia said:


> Speaking just for myself, I get far too many "canned" messages already. Also, not everyone is going to be glued to their email as soon as they get on the train. Better perhaps to have the SCA drop a piece of paper or card in the room with her/his name and a sum-up of services available to passengers on the train--including instructions for how to summon or find the SCA.


This is actually a good idea. I've seen the SCAs leave business cards in the room, but a card with the services available would be a good way to set expectations all around.


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## jiml (Sep 2, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> That's not really an option for most people. Maybe if we had some sort of Universal Basic Income...


That's supposedly one of the election "goodies" the Canadian government is expected to float in their fall budget. No one's really sure how they'll pay for it...


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

Qapla said:


> The problem with such email surveys is that many people don't bother with them. Most of the people that do respond are the ones who want to complain - sometimes they even complain about good service simply because they like to complain.



You really don't know until you start consistently asking for them and you can filter out the whiners. There's many people (Uber drivers, for example) who will always put the highest mark on every survey, having received an unfair bad mark at some point in their careers.

In my customer service environment, we built a culture around making sure our CSRs mention the survey they'll receive with every customer interaction. One of their metrics we assess on is survey response rate. If OBS know they're getting rated, they'll have a better incentive to do a better job.


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## 20th Century Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak claims that most of the feedback about their new flexicon cafeteria mush is positive.


Um... I think they came to that 'conclusion' when glancing at something that generalized on millennial preferences.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

tricia said:


> Speaking just for myself, I get far too many "canned" messages already. Also, not everyone is going to be glued to their email as soon as they get on the train. Better perhaps to have the SCA drop a piece of paper or card in the room with her/his name and a sum-up of services available to passengers on the train--including instructions for how to summon or find the SCA.



The point of the e-mails is to establish a pattern for a survey and inform them. Sure, many will be ignored, but one does not stop the other from happening. The idea is building a total system of accountability. Lots of lazy SCAs will not leave the paper there--or, they'll magically "run out", etc.

It's not an either/or situation, it's a "let's do both" situation.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> To be quite honest, I've been riding long distance trains for quite a while, and I've never had really bad service.



This was my experience UNTIL COVID. Being told by one LSA on a return trip that if I wanted to eat, I'd have to eat in the diner crossed the line as far as bad service goes for me.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> That's not really an option for most people. Maybe if we had some sort of Universal Basic Income...



I'm definitely a fan of UBI:

1) It allows time/space for people to contemplate their next career and develop skills in something they're passionate about and will do because it is rewarding. This increases aggregate productivity.
2) It gets people who really don't want to work out of the workforce. There's lots of people that skip from job to job for lack of an alternative and/or increase labor costs for everyone through frivolous disability claims simply to avoid working. This brings down aggregate productivity.
3) UBI money goes directly into local economies that create and sustain jobs.
4) UBI forces higher wages--which pushes money back into local economies instead of into stock buybacks and other tax havens for Billionaires.

That being said, are you saying that there aren't other jobs available? That high unemployment is a good excuse for anyone to have a bad attitude in their job?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Um... I think they came to that 'conclusion' when glancing at something that generalized on millennial preferences.



Well, here's the thing: Nobody asked me what I thought of the Flex Meals. I never got a survey. I was never presented with the opportunity to give my opinion on it. (As opposed to Delta, where I swear I got three surveys for every flight )

_Because of this, any evidence Amtrak has on the meals is *automatically suspect.*_

I don't think the reviews are going to be as universally bad as they are portrayed here, but I suspect that "meh" is largely going to be the outcome.


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## 20th Century Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> Well, here's the thing: Nobody asked me what I thought of the Flex Meals. I never got a survey. I was never presented with the opportunity to give my opinion on it. (As opposed to Delta, where I swear I got three surveys for every flight )
> 
> _Because of this, any evidence Amtrak has on the meals is *automatically suspect.*_
> 
> I don't think the reviews are going to be as universally bad as they are portrayed here, but I suspect that "meh" is largely going to be the outcome.


I almost agree with everything you said... but do think any requested reviews would reflect on the pathetic quality of flex meals. And I kind-a think that is exactly why such reviews are not solicited by Amtrak.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 2, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Having some supervision would probably make a difference, but it has to be effective supervision. E-mail surveys are useless, it's just another piece of junk email cluttering the inbox that will be ignored by the vast majority of recipients. Training might be helpful, but, again, I've been to lots of in-service training where we all just zoned out and it went into one ear and out the other. And the problem may be that the service manual is TOO detailed and you end up with OBS not being able to follow it to the letter and a small minority of "roomette lawyer" passengers who access to it getting picky about demanding stuff that actually interferes with safe and efficient operation of the train under the particular conditions at that time.


At this point almost any supervision would be an improvement over the status quo, even if all it did was corroborate customer complaints with official documentation to help facilitate retraining or removal. Emailing on it's own may be ineffective but as part of a wider outreach effort it could be helpful if taken seriously. Training can be done on the move instead of stuck in a classroom and the manual can be modified when necessary.



MARC Rider said:


> To be quite honest, I've been riding long distance trains for quite a while, and I've never had really bad service.


To be quite honest, I'm not sure you've ever had _really good_ service with which to compare it.


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## 20th Century Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> So supervising has to be done _just right_ to accomplish anything. Email surveys are useless unless most passengers respond to each inquiry. Training is too boring and theoretical, they need something that's more specific and easier to follow. Oh but the manual is too detailed and specific, they need more freedom to do their own thing. On the one hand you don't seem to have any practical answers for fixing bad service. On the other hand you seem to have a lot in common with the staff this thread is trying to address.
> 
> 
> To be quite honest, I don't think you've ever had really good service and thus have no frame of reference for what that looks or sounds like.


The attendant in an empty car who sits in room #1 and plays games on his computer... refuses to bring meals, and doesn't want to be bothered to make up your room in the morning ... I've had 'service' like that many times... and do complain. This is an area where Amtrak is inconsistent and has historically allowed this to happen. And by tipping such a person one is actually encouraging lackluster service.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 2, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> So supervising has to be done _just right_ to accomplish anything. Email surveys are useless unless most passengers respond to each inquiry.



Absolutely not. I supervise CSRs as one of my jobs and on a great day, our survey response rate is 15%.

Even if only 5% respond, you're still getting really good data from your customers as to what is happening in the field. You can start a conversation with your employees as to what happened in certain aspects of service, why the customer felt they way they did, etc. 

You can also start to identify who your really star performers are, figure out what they do well and offer that feedback to the rest of the company.

Also: If they're going after the Millennial/app market, this is a baseline expectation. We get surveys all the time and we respond to them--this is our only way of letting our voice be heard in most circumstances.

Anyone who calls in is just going to get a refund and be seen as a "problem".


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## me_little_me (Sep 2, 2020)

I don't respond to surveys. 

I've NEVER gotten one from the Veterans Administration Medical Center when I've had bad service so I suspect that, like a lot of places, they allow the service provider to select when a survey goes out and nobody in their right mind would ask that a survey be sent to someone who just told them that they were unhappy with the service. The results are suspect, at best.

Unless the company shows me the results of their surveys, I refuse to participate as it is not helping me. If they are unwilling to tell me, they have something to hide which means they are too embarrassed to admit their problems and do something about it. Especially true if they selectively release information.

Why should I take my unpaid time to tell management what they could find out by having paid "secret customers", unannounced management visitations, management actually getting out in the field instead of hiding behind spreadsheets in their ivory towers, managers actually periodically doing those field jobs to see what it is really like, and management talking to customers and reading the forums. My time is worth more than their laziness.


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## OBS (Sep 2, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> What about 448/449? Is Boston a base, by any chance?


Chicago based


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 2, 2020)

tricia said:


> Speaking just for myself, I get far too many "canned" messages already. Also, not everyone is going to be glued to their email as soon as they get on the train. Better perhaps to have the SCA drop a piece of paper or card in the room with her/his name and a sum-up of services available to passengers on the train--including instructions for how to summon or find the SCA.



This is a wonderful idea, especially right now.

The normal proper procedure is for the SCA to greet you as you board, direct you to your room, and say something like “I’ll be down shortly to explain how everything works.”

I do understand that the SCAs may want to keep their personal interaction at a minimum during a pandemic—for everyone’s safety—so tricia’s suggestion here is a wonderful compromise.


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## OBS (Sep 2, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> New York, NY (NYP)
> -Lake Shore Limited (New York Section)
> -Cardinal
> -Palmetto
> ...


One correction....The Diner attendant is Chicago based...for the Lakeshore...


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## bms (Sep 2, 2020)

One of my jobs has those surveys and in my opinion, they mainly measure who is best at begging clients for a 5/5 on the survey.


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## 20th Century Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

But deteriorating morale among staff can partly be attributed to elimination of jobs... most who are actually only human might just throw their hands in the air. Today it was announced in USA Today that Amtrak will furlough 1900 front line jobs and 100 management jobs. These are somber times.  









United Airlines plans to furlough 16,000 workers; Amtrak will furlough nearly 2,000


Airline officials said the final number could come down further before Oct. 1, when a prohibition on furloughs ends. Amtrak also plans to cut 2,000 jobs.



www.usatoday.com


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## 20th Century Rider (Sep 2, 2020)

tricia said:


> Speaking just for myself, I get far too many "canned" messages already. Also, not everyone is going to be glued to their email as soon as they get on the train. Better perhaps to have the SCA drop a piece of paper or card in the room with her/his name and a sum-up of services available to passengers on the train--including instructions for how to summon or find the SCA.


Actually there are many SCA's that do that already... they have it down to a pattern... also including a copy of the schedule if you didn't already download it. I've experienced this on the CS and SWC. I wish such high standards would be stated in the job description.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 2, 2020)

OBS said:


> One correction....The Diner attendant is Chicago based...for the Lakeshore...



Is that a recent change with the contemporary dining? I know years ago the lake shore was nyc based. So was the crescent at one time (but other obs was New Orleans).


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 2, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> but the idea is that it's a fully automated message that appears to be "from" their LSA/SCA. The folks themselves would not be sending e-mails or even aware of it other than knowing, vaguely, that their passengers got a canned message with their pictures in it. If there is a reply feature, it would go to a centralized customer service area.



I think this is a good idea. It creates a "pleasurable" link between the guest and the service provider. On one very long cruise, part of the pre-cruise preparation for the trip from the cruise line was a "letter" from the ship's Master and Hotel Manager welcoming me to our anticipated journey. Such a communication helps to heighten one's expectations for their trip. 




MARC Rider said:


> Training might be helpful, but, again, I've been to lots of in-service training where we all just zoned out and it went into one ear and out the other.
> 
> During my career, I have attended many in-service meetings. Please forgive me if what I am about to write is disrespectful and offends anyone, but my colleagues who "zoned out" were the very ones who really needed that in-service training. For the rest of us, such training often provided new ideas or, at least, re-affirmed the job we were trying to do.
> 
> And the problem may be that the service manual is TOO detailed and you end up with OBS not being able to follow it to the letter



Bureaucrats exist in many professions and business positions. They need "something to do" to justify their jobs. Thus, such "manuals/directions/regulations/rules,etc." are often created to the detriment of the job that, we the workers, are trying to do. The best philosophy that I found when I was the Chairman of an academic department was the well known KISS philosophy. 

When an organization gets to many "Suits" running a business, particularly when those "Suits" have little to no experience in that business, that's when problems, that were not there initially, begin.

I think that has been, and is, an issue for Amtrak. "Suits" in Congress; "Suits" in Amtrak's Executive Office.


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## LookingGlassTie (Sep 2, 2020)

Speaking of consistency (and I hope I'm not off-topic) what I would like to see return is the ability of coach passengers to order food/meals to eat at their seats. I don't know if that service was actually discontinued, though.

Food quality notwithstanding, I think that coach passengers should have that option.


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## OBS (Sep 2, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is that a recent change with the contemporary dining? I know years ago the lake shore was nyc based. So was the crescent at one time (but other obs was New Orleans).


Yes, for the Lakeshore. The Crescent jobs went to NOL about 7-8 years ago.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 2, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I think this is a good idea. It creates a "pleasurable" link between the guest and the service provider. On one very long cruise, part of the pre-cruise preparation for the trip from the cruise line was a "letter" from the ship's Master and Hotel Manager welcoming me to our anticipated journey. Such a communication helps to heighten one's expectations for their trip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is too many of the "Suits" are Empty!


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## Qapla (Sep 2, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> The problem is too many of the "Suits" are Empty!



Or "Stuffed"


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## CameraObscura76 (Sep 3, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> Me too, but I've only taken one trip. LSAs going both ways were superb. Heather in the dining car was out of this world. A vet, by the way.


Heather is a gem; so are Paul, George, Lori and Sarah.


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## basketmaker (Sep 3, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> It may not be workable, but the idea is that it's a fully automated message that appears to be "from" their LSA/SCA. The folks themselves would not be sending e-mails or even aware of it other than knowing, vaguely, that their passengers got a canned message with their pictures in it. If there is a reply feature, it would go to a centralized customer service area.


That's why I'm on the train! No e-mail, phone, text....


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## Nick Farr (Sep 3, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> That's why I'm on the train! No e-mail, phone, text....



You'd get the email before your trip, just like your ticket.

You can feel free to ignore it, but for first time passengers it's an opportunity to learn about the minimum service standards and what to do if they're not followed.


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## Qapla (Sep 3, 2020)

I don't "do email" on my phone - so, I would not get such an email with my ticket.

Later, when I'm back home and checking my email on my PC I'd be prone to treat such an email like I do the other "surveys" I get

My eTicket comes on my Amtrak App - not by email.


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## tricia (Sep 3, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> You'd get the email before your trip, just like your ticket.
> 
> You can feel free to ignore it, but for first time passengers it's an opportunity to learn about the minimum service standards and what to do if they're not followed.



All sounds fine EXCEPT "that it appears to be 'from' their LSA/SCA." Emails that pretend to be coming from a specific individual who in fact hasn't sent it are fundamentally dishonest.


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## Qapla (Sep 3, 2020)

And what is there for those of us who don't drink coffee?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 3, 2020)

tricia said:


> All sounds fine EXCEPT "that it appears to be 'from' their LSA/SCA." Emails that pretend to be coming from a specific individual who in fact hasn't sent it are fundamentally dishonest.



There's a lot of A/B testing that will go into it if they adopt it, but this is a common business practice. It's one idea and that's good feedback. Perhaps it can be an "introduction"

If you write your representative in Congress, the reply will appear to be from them in a lot of cases, but they'll have no idea who, when or what was sent. They might get a report.

I send a ton of lightly automated email where I have no idea who the recipients are, but the emails appear to be "from" me.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 3, 2020)

Qapla said:


> And what is there for those of us who don't drink coffee?



Technically all the canned drinks and bottled water we want, right?


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## tricia (Sep 3, 2020)

Qapla said:


> And what is there for those of us who don't drink coffee?



You go to the dining car and beg some hot water for tea. Or ask for juice or soda.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 3, 2020)

tricia said:


> You go to the dining car and beg some hot water for tea. Or ask for juice or soda.



Or hit your call button and make the SCA do it.


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## tricia (Sep 3, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> There's a lot of A/B testing that will go into it if they adopt it, but this is a common business practice. It's one idea and that's good feedback. Perhaps it can be an "introduction"
> 
> If you write your representative in Congress, the reply will appear to be from them in a lot of cases, but they'll have no idea who, when or what was sent. They might get a report.
> 
> I send a ton of lightly automated email where I have no idea who the recipients are, but the emails appear to be "from" me.



I know all this. I also still know that it's dishonest, unless the person whose name is signed to it has seen and approved it. 

The fact that we have technology that enables us to create an appearance of personalization doesn't make it honest.


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## basketmaker (Sep 3, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> You'd get the email before your trip, just like your ticket.
> 
> You can feel free to ignore it, but for first time passengers it's an opportunity to learn about the minimum service standards and what to do if they're not followed.


A day or so prior to travel yes. But it kind of read to check e-mail in the room at departure. Business cards for all personnel (not just the OBS) should be standard. And be offered to any pax on request. They would include Red Caps, ticket agents or even kitchen staff. There are times you ask for a name and may it is all vowels and long. Your arms are full and can't write it down. And this is for poor service or fantastic service. And yes, good service should be reported just like poor. 
And I am one of the oddballs that does complete surveys. E-mail, online, telephone and USPS.


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## PVD (Sep 3, 2020)

One of the huge problems with e-mail blasts is what is known as "the open rate" A very large percent of marketing/service e-mails, particularly ones you are not expecting, don't get opened and read.


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## basketmaker (Sep 3, 2020)

PVD said:


> One of the huge problems with e-mail blasts is what is known as "the open rate" A very large percent of marketing/service e-mails, particularly ones you are not expecting, don't get opened and read.


Blasts are iffy. I always check the sender address before opening. Trash the ones that don't show the same related name to the subject line.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 3, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> Blasts are iffy. I always check the sender address before opening. Trash the ones that don't show the same related name to the subject line.


Most email clients don't show the actual sender and those that do would typcially show a dead address or an incomprehensible mishmash of meta gibberish.


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## basketmaker (Sep 3, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most email clients don't show the actual sender and those that do would typcially show a dead address or an incomprehensible mishmash of meta gibberish.


Exactly.... Subject: AMTRAK Super Sale!!! Sender: <[email protected]> just don't match up.


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## me_little_me (Sep 3, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> Exactly.... Subject: AMTRAK Super Sale!!! Sender: <[email protected]> just don't match up.


Amtrak's boss - at the White House - sent it.


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## PVD (Sep 3, 2020)

Notwithstanding shadow, spoofed or known spam sources, e-mails from identifiable legit sources have relatively poor open rates. On the other hand, costs per send are low for someone with an already built platform.


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## Nick Farr (Sep 3, 2020)

PVD said:


> Notwithstanding shadow, spoofed or known spam sources, e-mails from identifiable legit sources have relatively poor open rates. On the other hand, costs per send are low for someone with an already built platform.



That being said, if you bought a ticket and got a ticket confirmation, an "Update about your trip" e-mail usually makes it past the filter.


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## PVD (Sep 3, 2020)

It shouldn't be filtered, but having read comments on this site, a surprising number of people get caught off guard by things they were notified of, but never read....


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 3, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> Blasts are iffy. I always check the sender address before opening.



If I don't recognize the e-mail address, that e-mail will get deleted 99% of the time. I am very careful as to what e-mails I open that have links even with e-mail addresses that I recognize. As an AOL user, 10 years ago, I received what appeared to be an official "AOL" e-mail. I opened it, clicked a link, then got suspicious about what it was saying. I enlarged the e-mail and discovered in the upper left hand corner something written in the cyrillic alphabet. That led to a police report, a change in my AOL password, a cancellation of the credit card that paid for AOL charges, and notifications to the 3 credit bureaus and well as to my bank.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 3, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> If you write your representative in Congress, the reply will appear to be from them in a lot of cases, but they'll have no idea who, when or what was sent. They might get a report.



I think you are correct. I wonder if they even get a report.

My Ohio House of Representatives member's office generates messages that are very generic response (the same one that I receive for any message I send him). I find such responses offensive. My Ohio State Senator on the other hand sends messages that are specific to the issue about which I e-mailed her. Unfortunately, my Senator is term limited at the end of 2020. My Representative is running to take her seat. Are you able to predict who will not be receiving my vote?


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 3, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> And I am one of the oddballs that does complete surveys. E-mail, online, telephone and USPS.



I don't complete all of the survey requests that I receive, but, I am more likely to do so during an election season when the survey has to do with the election. If I receive a survey request from a company whose products that I use or one that I patronize, I am very likely to complete that type of a survey.


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## lordsigma (Sep 4, 2020)

Can't remember if this is the thread where someone reported that crews were not allowing people to use the Sleeper Lounge on one of the Silvers. Currently sitting on train 43 during the endless Philly stop. While here I saw 91 come through the station. There were people sitting in the diner when the train went by so it would appear, at least that crew, was allowing folks to sit in the lounge. It would seem insane for them not to allow people because it sounded like social distancing is the whole reason they put the diners back on the Silvers.


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## Qapla (Sep 4, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> sounded like social distancing is the whole reason they put the diners back on the Silvers.



The diner was only removed from the Star "as an experiment" - It was never removed from the Meteor 

Of course, 91 is the Star so it is good to know they are allowing the use of the diner on that train


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## lordsigma (Sep 4, 2020)

Qapla said:


> The diner was only removed from the Star "as an experiment" - It was never removed from the Meteor
> 
> Of course, 91 is the Star so it is good to know they are allowing the use of the diner on that train


I was aware of that. I was referring to the recent removal of the diner from the Crescent/Meteor during COVID and the subsequent restoration of the diner to the new standard Star/Meteor alternating daily consist which occured when they went to the current schedule.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 4, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought sunset was NOL?


Nope, LA


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 4, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought sunset was NOL?


The Sunset is actually SOL but now that every route is being treated like a red headed stepchild maybe it doesn't matter anymore.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 5, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> This was my experience UNTIL COVID. Being told by one LSA on a return trip that if I wanted to eat, I'd have to eat in the diner crossed the line as far as bad service goes for me.


OK, wow. That's bad, especially considering the whole point of the reduced level of service because of COVID. They should be encouraging people to eat in their rooms. I hope you sent off a complaint letter to whoever it is that you send off complaint letters, ("customer relations," "customer service," or even the CEO of Amtrak.)


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## MARC Rider (Sep 5, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> I'm definitely a fan of UBI:
> 
> 1) It allows time/space for people to contemplate their next career and develop skills in something they're passionate about and will do because it is rewarding. This increases aggregate productivity.
> 2) It gets people who really don't want to work out of the workforce. There's lots of people that skip from job to job for lack of an alternative and/or increase labor costs for everyone through frivolous disability claims simply to avoid working. This brings down aggregate productivity.
> ...


What I meant was that even if your job is not the best fit for someone (which might be why so someone has a "bad attitude"), it's still a job and (in the absence of UBI) pays the bills. And for many people, finding a new job, especially one that's a good fit, isn't all that easy. I know it's not easy for me, which is why I spent a 40 year career only working for 2 different employers, both of whom were government agencies. Some people have personalities such that they can find new jobs at the drop of a hat, others have more trouble. But everybody needs to work, even if the job they have isn't a good fit. What's the alternative?

By the way, I highly recommend reading Bertrand Russell's 1932 essay, "In Praise of Idleness." Despite its age, it has a lot of points that are still relevant.

Another good book to read is Bullsh#t Jobs. Alas, the author, David Graeber, just died a couple of days ago. While most OBS is more like a "sh#t" job than a "bullsh#t" job, there's probably lots of the latter at Amtrak HQ. Graeber's analysis of the psychological stress our management culture puts on even well paid people with fancy titles (not to mention those who aren't so well paid) may explain why so many employees of all types have "bad attitudes."


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## MARC Rider (Sep 5, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> To be quite honest, I'm not sure you've ever had _really good_ service with which to compare it.



Actually, any kind of "really good service" would make me uncomfortable. I once read an essay by Michael Korda in a certain men's magazine that I can assure you I perused only for the articles  called "Service Without a Smile." As I recall, Korda's point was that superior service is done so unobtrusively, the recipient doesn't realize it's been done. However, I got the impression that there was a subtext in which the working-class service providers have some contempt for the people they serve, though, of course they stifle it, being that they want to keep their jobs. I sort of imagined Jeeves laughing behind Bertie Wooster's back. even if he did provide Bertie exceptional service.

Anyway, you don't need to have somebody constantly at your beck and call during an overnight train ride.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 5, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> Blasts are iffy. I always check the sender address before opening. Trash the ones that don't show the same related name to the subject line.


I don't even bother to check the sender's address. It just goes into the trash, just like my dead-tree junk mail.


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## Sauve850 (Sep 5, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> That being said, if you bought a ticket and got a ticket confirmation, an "Update about your trip" e-mail usually makes it past the filter.


Nothing like a friendly forum crowd


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## PVD (Sep 5, 2020)

I agree, the amtrak e-mails would likely make it through the spam filters. My issue, which I have already stated, is that once people have their tickets and recipts, they are not diligent about opening updates, particularly if they are already on the road. That might be a real problem for return trips when people are already on the road.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Sep 8, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, any kind of "really good service" would make me uncomfortable. I once read an essay by Michael Korda in a certain men's magazine that I can assure you I perused only for the articles  called "Service Without a Smile." As I recall, Korda's point was that superior service is done so unobtrusively, the recipient doesn't realize it's been done. However, I got the impression that there was a subtext in which the working-class service providers have some contempt for the people they serve, though, of course they stifle it, being that they want to keep their jobs. I sort of imagined Jeeves laughing behind Bertie Wooster's back. even if he did provide Bertie exceptional service.
> 
> Anyway, you don't need to have somebody constantly at your beck and call during an overnight train ride.



I don't know why, but this reminds me of a Customer Service seminar my employer set up, bringing in an outside speaker, to talk with us. Here is one of their stories.

Kodak made really crappy copiers. The worse ever. They broke down all the time. Kodak, to address this image, had all their repair people get up early every morning, and home bake cakes, pies, brownies, cupcakes, to bring with them, on a repair call. Their customers got use to this; at least their workers did. So, instead of "darn it, that worthless copier is broken again", it was "yea, that nice copier repair guy is coming to visit with us again. I wonder what delicious goodies he will bring us this time?"

The result was that Kodak's crappy copiers were ranked #1 by their customers.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 14, 2020)

You wanna solve customer service problems everywhere? Dissolve the unions and make wages and bonuses service dependent. 

Assuming thats not possible - and it isn't with a government corporation like Amtrak - start hiring for attitude. Just like Southwest Air used to. Hire people excited about working on the railroad. Hire rail fans. Hire people people. Hire for attitude, train for competency.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 14, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> If the standards manual is very good and detailed as to what service is to be provided, then such ought to be followed by all service employees to the best of their ability.
> 
> How to do so: my suggestions---
> 
> ...



If all of a sudden everyone knew what the service standards are, and what amenities are supposed to be available, then the SCA would have to deliver on those. I've traveled on three or four over night trains - I've gotten decent service on ONE of those trips and it was a totally intracalifornia trip from LAX to SAC.

We even had an SCA who vanished every evening of a three night trip on the Chief from 7p - 10p. Said it was his scheduled time off. That worked out well in the sleeping car. He got $5 when I left - and I told him that if he'd actually been available to make up the cabin he'd have gotten four times that from both of us but at least he left the messy coffee station set up all day.


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## neroden (Sep 14, 2020)

The problem is a combination of bad top management and management churn. It's impossible to engage in any form of supervision of workers when top management repeatedly disappears and is replaced with new top management who abandons all the initiatives of the previous top management. There was an Amtrak initiative to "raise the floor" of service quality by careful evaluations and retraining (with occasional firing) and... in a management change, the initiative was abandoned mid-stream. So.

There are other ways this has damaged Amtrak. The Performance Improvement Plans required by Congress should have been implemented, and should STILL be implemented, but some management change brought in an idiot manager who just abandoned them. The current top management hasn't even heard of them.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 14, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> You wanna solve customer service problems everywhere? Dissolve the unions and make wages and bonuses service dependent.
> 
> Assuming thats not possible - and it isn't with a government corporation like Amtrak - start hiring for attitude. Just like Southwest Air used to. Hire people excited about working on the railroad. Hire rail fans. Hire people people. Hire for attitude, train for competency.


I hate to have to say this, but (1) Southwest Airlines is unionized, and (2) back in the "good old days" of high-class streamliner service, all of those service workers were unionized. Google "Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters," and "A. Phillip Randolph." The problem is with management, not the unions.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 14, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I hate to have to say this, but (1) Southwest Airlines is unionized, and (2) back in the "good old days" of high-class streamliner service, all of those service workers were unionized. Google "Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters," and "A. Phillip Randolph." The problem is with management, not the unions.


Come to think of it, the worst service I've ever had in transportation was when flying Continental in the Frank Lorenzo era, when he totally busted the unions.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 14, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I hate to have to say this, but (1) Southwest Airlines is unionized, and (2) back in the "good old days" of high-class streamliner service, all of those service workers were unionized. Google "Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters," and "A. Phillip Randolph." The problem is with management, not the unions.


management is not in the train cars not providing the service. The employees know what the service standards are, and for the most part, are not providing it. And everyone is literally hiding behind COVID - why can't I get free coffee in the dining car? Hand out a cup - let me bring my cup - its not that hard to figure out a way to make that work. 

If the SCA;s know what their service standards are- and they continue to be employed - then its their job. The cream of the crop of service is provided when NO ONE is looking - when your managers are not looking over your shoulder yet you provide SERVICE without being forced to do it. It's not that hard to hire for attitude. And yes - I know Southwest is union, which would make perfect sense from my SECOND entire sentence read as a whole.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 14, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> management is not in the train cars not providing the service. The employees know what the service standards are, and for the most part, are not providing it. And everyone is literally hiding behind COVID - why can't I get free coffee in the dining car? Hand out a cup - let me bring my cup - its not that hard to figure out a way to make that work.
> 
> If the SCA;s know what their service standards are- and they continue to be employed - then its their job. The cream of the crop of service is provided when NO ONE is looking - when your managers are not looking over your shoulder yet you provide SERVICE without being forced to do it. It's not that hard to hire for attitude. And yes - I know Southwest is union, which would make perfect sense from my SECOND entire sentence read as a whole.


Sorry, it's still management's job to write the service standards. And, by the way, it's not self-evident what appropriate service standard are. All I really want from a sleeping car attendant is that they put down my bed in the evening and make it up in the morning. I don't need to have them at my beck and call. After all, they are not my personal servants. 
It's management that decides to understaff and cut back on amenities, not the workers. If an SCA has responsibility for twice as many rooms as they did before, it's going to take them longer to make up the rooms and the service standards are going to deteriorate. That's a management decision. If they cut amenities to "save money" whether using the excuse of COVID or not, that's a management decision. And I don't care how much a of "people person" a worker is, if he or she is being stressed out by job conditions, it's going to reflect on how they treat the customers. And anyone who claims that they can interview potential job applicants and really understand their personalities is a charlatan. That's why most good jobs are filled on the basis of personal recommendations by someone the person doing the hiring trusts.

The only solution is for management to realize that there is a minimum staffing level that is necessary to provide adequate service standards. That includes some padding to account for unexpected events, like people getting sick, and so forth. On the other hand, many business have appeared to have done quite well by cutting costs and diminishing service standards. It seems that maybe most customers don't care any more. Well, the world changes, and we might as well get used to it.


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## jruff001 (Sep 14, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Sorry, it's still management's job to write the service standards. And, by the way, it's not self-evident what appropriate service standard are.


I'm pretty sure I have seen a link here to the OBS manual, which I believe contains the service standards. At least it seemed like a pretty thorough document. Maybe someone can re-post it.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 14, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> All I really want from a sleeping car attendant is that they put down my bed in the evening and make it up in the morning. I don't need to have them at my beck and call. After all, they are not my personal servants.



I would add to that SCA expectation is assistance with luggage.

I usually feel somewhat uneasy if I need to make a request to my SCA. I try to be an independent traveler and not being seen by a crew member as one who has service requests that are really not necessary.



MARC Rider said:


> It's management that decides to understaff and cut back on amenities, not the workers. If an SCA has responsibility for twice as many rooms as they did before, it's going to take them longer to make up the rooms and the service standards are going to deteriorate. That's a management decision. If they cut amenities to "save money" whether using the excuse of COVID or not, that's a management decision. And I don't care how much a of "people person" a worker is, if he or she is being stressed out by job conditions, it's going to reflect on how they treat the customers. And anyone who claims that they can interview potential job applicants and really understand their personalities is a charlatan. That's why most good jobs are filled on the basis of personal recommendations by someone the person doing the hiring trusts.



An excellent post! I have been involved in interviewing and helping to decide who to hire for job vacancies. It's a very difficult job. Some who interview satisfactorily and have stellar recommendations from "someone the person doing the hiring trusts" don't turn out well. One person who had "did the best job I have ever seen by someone in her position" recommendation was hired in August and was gone in January. 

One has to look at "stellar recommendations" by whomever with a questioning attitude. If this person is "so great", then why are they leaving? Why aren't you making an attempt to keep them? In hiring people, one has to have the ability to try to "read between the lines" of recommendations.


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## tommylicious (Sep 14, 2020)

With 48 hours on a train, good service can't make up for really lousy food unfortunately.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 14, 2020)

tommylicious said:


> With 48 hours on a train, good service can't make up for really lousy food unfortunately.


You know, its 2020 - you'd think they could develop an app that delivers food to the trains at the longer stops. I'd skip the provided salt and carb fest to get a good meal meeting the train from a local place - imagine - Mexican food in Albuquerque. Steak or pub grub in Denver. Seafood in Emeryville or Oakland. A good salad in Salinas. Then give me my free drink/beer/wine and some dessert and off I go. 

Grub hub and the usual meal delivery services could make something like that work - and Amtrak gives you a $5 credit or something for not taking the onboard meal. Wouldn't be that hard to coordinate =- just would take you ordering an hour in advance of arrival or meal time -


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## PVD (Sep 14, 2020)

It would be very difficult to verify that a widespread network of independent restaurants and delivery services would be in compliance with both the local regulations they are usually doing business under, and the more rigid FDA standards that Amtrak must comply with. It might be better from a passenger standpoint, but it would be a nightmare for risk management and compliance staff. And the idea that local restaurants are serving food not loaded with salt and carbs, while noble, is probably not valid. Local restaurant groups are usually the first to oppose regulations requiring increased nutrition information, especially sodium content. Look how long it took just to get mandated allergen. Getting reliable ingredient information, which is important to many people, is difficult with local operations. But none of that is an excuse for not doing a better job under the current system. It certainly can (and is in some places) able to be done.


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## jruff001 (Sep 15, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> You know, its 2020 - you'd think they could develop an app that delivers food to the trains at the longer stops. I'd skip the provided salt and carb fest to get a good meal meeting the train from a local place - imagine - Mexican food in Albuquerque. Steak or pub grub in Denver. Seafood in Emeryville or Oakland. A good salad in Salinas. Then give me my free drink/beer/wine and some dessert and off I go.
> 
> Grub hub and the usual meal delivery services could make something like that work[.]


Can't you already do that? Just get on Grubhub yourself with your phone an hour before the station stop where you want food, see what is on offer in that town, and put in an order to deliver to the station for when the train arrives.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 15, 2020)

PVD said:


> It would be very difficult to verify that a widespread network of independent restaurants and delivery services would be in compliance with both the local regulations they are usually doing business under, and the more rigid FDA standards that Amtrak must comply with. It might be better from a passenger standpoint, but it would be a nightmare for risk management and compliance staff. And the idea that local restaurants are serving food not loaded with salt and carbs, while noble, is probably not valid. Local restaurant groups are usually the first to oppose regulations requiring increased nutrition information, especially sodium content. Look how long it took just to get mandated allergen. Getting reliable ingredient information, which is important to many people, is difficult with local operations. But none of that is an excuse for not doing a better job under the current system. It certainly can (and is in some places) able to be done.


Not to mention "an hour out" from certain stops, like ABQ, there may not be good enough cell phone service to provide Internet services for using such services like GrubHub.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 15, 2020)

jruff001 said:


> Can't you already do that? Just get on Grubhub yourself with your phone an hour before the station stop where you want food, see what is on offer in that town, and put in an order to deliver to the station for when the train arrives.


You can't count on adequate cell phone bars for Internet service in certain places.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 15, 2020)

PVD said:


> It would be very difficult to verify that a widespread network of independent restaurants and delivery services would be in compliance with both the local regulations they are usually doing business under, and the more rigid FDA standards that Amtrak must comply with. It might be better from a passenger standpoint, but it would be a nightmare for risk management and compliance staff. And the idea that local restaurants are serving food not loaded with salt and carbs, while noble, is probably not valid. Local restaurant groups are usually the first to oppose regulations requiring increased nutrition information, especially sodium content. Look how long it took just to get mandated allergen. Getting reliable ingredient information, which is important to many people, is difficult with local operations. But none of that is an excuse for not doing a better job under the current system. It certainly can (and is in some places) able to be done.



Amtrak is not providing the food - so they don't have to comply with the 'stricter FDA' standards. So lets stick our heads in the sand and ignore other options because someone had an idea you didn't. 

Amtrak runs trains through these places every single day - the attendants and staff know where cell service stops and starts. 

This is a typical internet forum - find fault with any comment and render it impossible. And then nit pick through the entire comment to prevent useful discourse.

Look - You're the one who said the food was totally unpalatable - and I provided an option - so its not 'an hour' its 90 min - make your order or eat whats on the train. 

This could EASILY happen. EASILY - with restaurants that are willing to be flexible on schedule given the vagaries of the rail system. 

Oh but no we can't! Don't have cell bars, or can't tell when you may arrive, or a thousand different reasons why it CAN'T WORK! 

If people want it to - it will. It's that simple.

We're gonna be on the CZ late in October. I'm gonna try it at the bigger stations and see what happens.


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## tricia (Sep 15, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> Amtrak is not providing the food - so they don't have to comply with the 'stricter FDA' standards. So lets stick our heads in the sand and ignore other options because someone had an idea you didn't.
> 
> Amtrak runs trains through these places every single day - the attendants and staff know where cell service stops and starts.
> 
> ...



Um, this is your 6th post to this forum. It might ought to occur to you that when you make suggestions, other folks here might have already been there, done that, found it unworkable--and perhaps already discussed it. 

This forum is pretty consistently polite to newbies posting things that have already been extensively discussed here. You might consider returning that courtesy.

Good luck on the CZ in late October. I for one would like to see you post here about your experience. Since the Amtrak "experience" can be wildly inconsistent, it's helpful to read reports from many riders.


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2020)

You mentioned Amtrak giving credit for the unused meals, that implies their participation in the plan. If meals were eliminated, and you were on your own without any participation by Amtrak, real or perceived, that would be a different story. I never said it wouldn't work, I pointed out that it would be unwieldly if Amtrak itself were in any way involved. Plenty of people order food for delivery to the train. But they are on their own if the train gains or loses time enroute, it is unlikely a delivery service will want to wait a half an hour for the slow freight to clear so your train can make the station track. Time is money to them. There isn't anything standing in the way of someone doing this using an app, if cell service and restaurants are available where you are (or will be) But there isn't any reason why this should be necessary, onboard meal service can be much better. Restaurant participation in app based services can be tough on the business, the app services take increasingly large bites of the revenue, to the point that some jurisdictions have started to impose caps on the percentages allowed. The restaurants are often caught in a squeeze because the services provide an increasing share of their business, but profitabilty is squeezed. As a customer, if the restaurant adds a delivery charge or raises prices, the reasonable meal can all of a sudden seem overpriced like the onboard pricing was.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 15, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> I'd skip the provided salt and carb fest to get a good meal meeting the train from a local place - imagine - Mexican food in Albuquerque. Steak or pub grub in Denver. Seafood in Emeryville or Oakland. A good salad in Salinas.


You do realize that almost every place you go to eat out, you get a "salt and carb fest?" This is true even when the food is of better quality than the flex meals. Yes, there are some exceptions, but you have to look carefully for them.


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## JoeBas (Sep 15, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> Grub hub and the usual meal delivery services could make something like that work - and Amtrak gives you a $5 credit or something for not taking the onboard meal. Wouldn't be that hard to coordinate =- just would take you ordering an hour in advance of arrival or meal time -



My experience with GrubHub/UberEats/Waitr/DoorDash (yes, all 4, so it's not one and done) is: 

a) About a 50% success rate in actually getting what I ordered, which can't be fixed during a station stop
b) About a 25% success rate in actually getting delivery within a 3-minute-either-way window of their "Expected delivery", which is the length of a typical station stop. 

I guess if the delivery fails, you just eat the cost of the wrong/late/missing food, get a little hungrier, and try to order again at the next station.... but hey, at least you're helping giggers.


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## comanchepilot (Sep 15, 2020)

JoeBas said:


> My experience with GrubHub/UberEats/Waitr/DoorDash (yes, all 4, so it's not one and done) is:
> 
> a) About a 50% success rate in actually getting what I ordered, which can't be fixed during a station stop
> b) About a 25% success rate in actually getting delivery within a 3-minute-either-way window of their "Expected delivery", which is the length of a typical station stop.
> ...


You still have your train meal!


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## Qapla (Sep 15, 2020)

Not specially about the food - more about .... 

I was looking out the window about 15 stories up. I was told the view was spectacular. Well, it was - sort of. Part of my view was blocked by some building. Seems a few streets over there was a 45 story building right in my line of sight. To the left of it was a 60 story building. On the other side was a 30 story building.

Since I was only 15 storied up, my view was totally blocked! It didn't really matter that the building on the right was only 30 stories - it blocked my view just as much as both the other buildings.

... OK - what does this have to do with this thread? Well, it actually has to do with the entire thread since the title of the thread is "Inconsistent Service: A bigger problem than the food?" Food, on-time performance, inconsistent service, pricing, 3x week service are all problems and, like those buildings, they are ALL problems ... does it matter which one(s) we think are "bigger"?


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## comanchepilot (Sep 15, 2020)

PVD said:


> You mentioned Amtrak giving credit for the unused meals, that implies their participation in the plan. If meals were eliminated, and you were on your own without any participation by Amtrak, real or perceived, that would be a different story. I never said it wouldn't work, I pointed out that it would be unwieldly if Amtrak itself were in any way involved. Plenty of people order food for delivery to the train. But they are on their own if the train gains or loses time enroute, it is unlikely a delivery service will want to wait a half an hour for the slow freight to clear so your train can make the station track. Time is money to them. There isn't anything standing in the way of someone doing this using an app, if cell service and restaurants are available where you are (or will be) But there isn't any reason why this should be necessary, onboard meal service can be much better. Restaurant participation in app based services can be tough on the business, the app services take increasingly large bites of the revenue, to the point that some jurisdictions have started to impose caps on the percentages allowed. The restaurants are often caught in a squeeze because the services provide an increasing share of their business, but profitabilty is squeezed. As a customer, if the restaurant adds a delivery charge or raises prices, the reasonable meal can all of a sudden seem overpriced like the onboard pricing was.


A 'meal credit' is just that - you don't get an Amtrak meal. Amtrak is NOT PROVIDING the meal - thus they are NOT responsible for it. 

They do ask you cabin number when you arrive in the dining car - they just look it up and say: you opted for the meal credit. 

You know, Fred Smith was told by everyone that overnight delivery would never work and people invented a million strawman scenarios when things would never work - yet he managed to make it work. I'm sure every railroad and airline founder was told it would never work. If people only listened to naysayers we'd still be living in caves and no one would have invented beer which spurred the agricultural revolution and created civilization. 

And this is not my first internet forum. So being a newbie for me isn't a rik. It doesn't sound like anyone else has had this idea - just that many people have found reasons why it would never work. Thats completely different from someone saying - hey, we tried this in Minot or Cleveland and it did not work for the following reasons -

COVID has really changed the app order food system - its much more accepted and much bigger than it used to be - and less of a niche market for local restaurants. But - whatever - it won't work - the forum regulars have decreed. I'll stop -


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2020)

I don't think anyone said it can't work. I do think people (including myself) tried to point out that there may be a devil in the details. The idea of severing meals from accommodation charges has certainly been explored and discussed before. I order delivery all the time, but have the advantage of living in an area with plenty of restaurants. But I avoid the apps, because they add nothing that benefits me, and take a piece of the pie that would otherwise go to the restaurant. In my area (certainly not true everywhere) they add costs and add little benefit to the consumer.


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## neroden (Sep 15, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> You know, its 2020 - you'd think they could develop an app that delivers food to the trains at the longer stops. I'd skip the provided salt and carb fest to get a good meal meeting the train from a local place - imagine - Mexican food in Albuquerque. Steak or pub grub in Denver. Seafood in Emeryville or Oakland. A good salad in Salinas. Then give me my free drink/beer/wine and some dessert and off I go.



It would work fine if the trains ran on time. Back to the sabotaging by criminal freight railroad hosts.


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## me_little_me (Sep 16, 2020)

jruff001 said:


> I'm pretty sure I have seen a link here to the OBS manual, which I believe contains the service standards. At least it seemed like a pretty thorough document. Maybe someone can re-post it.


I don't think it's a matter of writing the standards (and as you pointed out, that has been done) but ENFORCING them. The only way to enforce them is to know if they are being followed or not. That means management on the trains either full time or randomly. But management doesn't ride the LD trains. Standards manuals in Amtrak are a joke. Employees can follow them or not with no oversight and no consequences. Without the first, nobody knows what is happening and the second is meaningless.


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## jruff001 (Sep 16, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> I don't think it's a matter of writing the standards (and as you pointed out, that has been done) but ENFORCING them.


I don't disagree, but I was specifically responding to a post that was specifically discussing WRITING the standards.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 16, 2020)

tricia said:


> Um, this is your 6th post to this forum. It might ought to occur to you that when you make suggestions, other folks here might have already been there, done that, found it unworkable--and perhaps already discussed it.


This brings up a question that I have had for a little while. CommanchePilot's posts are less than 10, but s/he has been a member since 2012. I have seen a few other people with that odd combination also. Do they just "lurk" for a couple of years before posting or can people change handles that don't show the previous posts under the former handle, but the year of entry remain the same? Regardless of CommanchePilot's situation, welcome! I will be interested to hear about your ordering meals along the California Zephyr line. That will be a good test case for my concern about lack of adequate cell phone coverage as that route goes through a lot of canyons and mountains, but I don't know where the stops are around mealtime as I haven't taken that line yet and haven't looked at the timetable.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 16, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> Do they just "lurk" for a couple of years before posting or can people change handles that don't show the previous posts under the former handle, but the year of entry remain the same



I have wondered the same thing. I see this on Cruise Critic as well.


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## jebr (Sep 16, 2020)

PVD said:


> It would be very difficult to verify that a widespread network of independent restaurants and delivery services would be in compliance with both the local regulations they are usually doing business under, and the more rigid FDA standards that Amtrak must comply with. It might be better from a passenger standpoint, but it would be a nightmare for risk management and compliance staff.



Yeah, if Amtrak were to do something like this, it'd be far better to partner with one of the major delivery apps that already exist, letting them deal with most of the logistical and legal issues. If Amtrak has some sort of API for real-time train status (which I'd imagine they do, even if it's not publicly available,) Amtrak could designate specific "outside meal access" stops, advise customers that they need to submit their order at least one station stop in advance (or two, if stations are close enough together that more lead time is necessary,) and then release the orders to the restaurants at some designated point to try and have them delivered just before the train arrives at the station. That would alleviate signal and timing issues for the most part (almost all station stops have cell signal, and tying the timing into Amtrak's real-time system would be far more reliable than having customers manually guess when the best time would be.) I would imagine some sort of pickup area on the platform would need to be created, even if it's just shelving and two temperature-controlled containers (one to keep things warm, and one to keep things cool.)


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> This brings up a question that I have had for a little while. CommanchePilot's posts are less than 10, but s/he has been a member since 2012. I have seen a few other people with that odd combination also. Do they just "lurk" for a couple of years before posting





Dakota 400 said:


> I have wondered the same thing. I see this on Cruise Critic as well.


I think that is common on all of these interline forums. People sometimes simply tire of going online, or find different interests to actively participate in, and then later on sometimes return and post prolifically...
People that retire are often in that category....


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## Nick Farr (Sep 16, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> If people want it to - it will. It's that simple.



I'm not going to tell you it's impossible because its not. Here are the biggest obstacles to overcome:

* When a driver comes to your house or office, they know where you are and wrap up the delivery in no more than three minutes. Sometimes the train takes three minutes just to park. Sometimes it takes three minutes to walk to the sleepers from the parking lot--if there's parking.

* When you order delivery, you're at the place you'll be at until it arrives. With the train you have a 5-15 minute window to hit on top of the added time to find you.

What could make this work is if you had a designated recipient who could accept the food from the delivery driver and then get in contact with you when you arrive.

On Facebook you can probably find rail fans willing to do this for you.

What could also make this work is passengers working with a designated vendor and spreading the word. If the restaurant knew they could rely on a bunch of orders and have sufficient access to the platforms, figure out where the sleepers were, throw up a flag, etc...they'd build the model you're seeking.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 16, 2020)

comanchepilot said:


> This is a typical internet forum - find fault with any comment and render it impossible. And then nit pick through the entire comment to prevent useful discourse.



Welcome to the forum!  



comanchepilot said:


> We're gonna be on the CZ late in October. I'm gonna try it at the bigger stations and see what happens.



Denver, Salt Lake City, and Grand Junction would all be good options. I wouldn't try Reno, the station set up there is odd and I don't think it would be easy to get and accept the delivery there.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 16, 2020)

Sadly, Dave' s Depot in Grand Junction,CO will be closing Sept.30 due to the CZ ( and all other LD Trains except the AutoTrain) going to 3 Days a week Schedules. RIP 

I used to love going in there and buying some Ice Cream ( in the Summer and Diet Cokes since I'm not a fan of Pepsi) during the Station stop.


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## AKA (Sep 16, 2020)

Sorry to hear this about Dave's. One of the high lights on the CZ. I always had to get my wife Ice cream when we stopped there.


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## me_little_me (Sep 17, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> This brings up a question that I have had for a little while. CommanchePilot's posts are less than 10, but s/he has been a member since 2012. I have seen a few other people with that odd combination also. Do they just "lurk" for a couple of years before posting or can people change handles that don't show the previous posts under the former handle, but the year of entry remain the same? Regardless of CommanchePilot's situation, welcome! I will be interested to hear about your ordering meals along the California Zephyr line. That will be a good test case for my concern about lack of adequate cell phone coverage as that route goes through a lot of canyons and mountains, but I don't know where the stops are around mealtime as I haven't taken that line yet and haven't looked at the timetable.


Some people are really only interested when actually soon-to-be traveling on the train. I am that way with Cruise Critic as there is no reason to post there for me as I am only interested in info on the specific stops we are going to make or in meeting and discussing with those on my ship. At other times, I don't post, don't read and block the emails from the site.


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## Qapla (Sep 17, 2020)

I am a "member" of a couple of forums I have not been "active" on in years ... yet, I occasionally visit and may even comment once in a while.

Nothing wrong with that ...


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## railiner (Sep 17, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Some people are really only interested when actually soon-to-be traveling on the train. I am that way with Cruise Critic as there is no reason to post there for me as I am only interested in info on the specific stops we are going to make or in meeting and discussing with those on my ship. At other times, I don't post, don't read and block the emails from the site.


I used to be very active on Cruise Critic's, but until cruising resumes, there is little to talk about there, except "when will it?"....
I am on a roll call for my next scheduled cruise, end of July, 2021, so I check that occasionally, but its very quiet there...


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## Michigan Mom (Sep 18, 2020)

If there are timing issues, and people don't get fed, your novel idea isn't going to work, Pilot, which creates a situation for Amtrak. That's not to say passengers can't try novel things on their own. Every train trip is an adventure which is part of the reason I miss it so!
As far as your employment solutions, unions can be a pain but ultimately they do a lot of good for the big picture. Beating people until they develop sunny attitudes doesn't work. Hiring for "service" and penalizing employees for real or imagined customer service violations generally results in high turnover which is not an ideal situation for Amtrak either.


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## Qapla (Sep 18, 2020)

You don't usually fix morale problems from the bottom up - you usually start from the top down. Ownership and management need to have pride in their product before they can expect the rank & file to have that pride.

This seems to be missing from Amtrak. Ownership is the US Gov't who treats Amtrak like an unwanted stepchild and management takes their orders and ques from them - is it any wonder that many of the rank & file have lost pride in Amtrak and it shows in the service some provide.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 21, 2020)

Qapla said:


> You don't usually fix morale problems from the bottom up - you usually start from the top down. Ownership and management need to have pride in their product before they can expect the rank & file to have that pride.
> 
> This seems to be missing from Amtrak. Ownership is the US Gov't who treats Amtrak like an unwanted stepchild and management takes their orders and ques from them - is it any wonder that many of the rank & file have lost pride in Amtrak and it shows in the service some provide.


I don't think the issue is the U.S. government, as Amtrak seems to have at least some bipartisan support in Congress, though I guess the Administration is less supportive. I think the issue at the top is the management. I sometimes wonder why, if they don't seem to like running a passenger railroad, did they take their management jobs in the first place.

I should point out that past management, despite the indifferent attitude of the government ownership, has been more enthusiastic about the mission of the organization.

Clearly some changes are needed at the top.


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## Everydaymatters (Sep 22, 2020)

railiner said:


> I think that is common on all of these interline forums. People sometimes simply tire of going online, or find different interests to actively participate in, and then later on sometimes return and post prolifically...
> People that retire are often in that category....


I'm in the retired category. Physical limitations make travel very difficult. My mind is willing, but my body isn't. My advice is to travel as much as you can while you can. I did, and I'm happy to have those memories.


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## jimdex (Sep 22, 2020)

"I should point out that past management, despite the indifferent attitude of the government ownership, has been more enthusiastic about the mission of the organization.

Clearly some changes are needed at the top."

I've been around look enough to hear railfans accuse virtually every one of Amtrak's presidents, with the possible exception of Graham Claytor and maybe Paul Reistrup, of not being enthusiastic enough about Amtrak's mission. Virtually every Amtrak management has been accused of "cooking the books" to make long-distance trains look bad, diverting long-distance system "profits" to the Northeast Corridor, and not being enthusiastic enough about passenger rail in general. On one forum I used to visit, it was practically a ritual of faith to blame all of Amtrak's problems on then-President George Warrington, and to suggest that once he was gone, the problems would go away. Then after Warrington was replaced by David Gunn, they blamed Gunn for the same problems. The truth is, Amtrak's problems go deeper than whoever is running it at any given time, and management changes have never led to the changes fans would like to see.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 22, 2020)

Everydaymatters said:


> I'm in the retired category. Physical limitations make travel very difficult. My mind is willing, but my body isn't. My advice is to travel as much as you can while you can. I did, and I'm happy to have those memories.



Excellent advice! Even if the Amtrak experience of 2020 is not as pleasant as it once was, the time will come for most of us that we may not be able to have any Amtrak or other travel experience.


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## Qapla (Sep 22, 2020)

So - the constant in the poor upper-level support goes back to "ownership" ...


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## me_little_me (Sep 22, 2020)

jimdex said:


> "I should point out that past management, despite the indifferent attitude of the government ownership, has been more enthusiastic about the mission of the organization.
> 
> Clearly some changes are needed at the top."
> 
> I've been around look enough to hear railfans accuse virtually every one of Amtrak's presidents, with the possible exception of Graham Claytor and maybe Paul Reistrup, of not being enthusiastic enough about Amtrak's mission. Virtually every Amtrak management has been accused of "cooking the books" to make long-distance trains look bad, diverting long-distance system "profits" to the Northeast Corridor, and not being enthusiastic enough about passenger rail in general. On one forum I used to visit, it was practically a ritual of faith to blame all of Amtrak's problems on then-President George Warrington, and to suggest that once he was gone, the problems would go away. Then after Warrington was replaced by David Gunn, they blamed Gunn for the same problems. The truth is, Amtrak's problems go deeper than whoever is running it at any given time, and management changes have never led to the changes fans would like to see.


Does that mean it is NOT Amtrak's top manager that is a major part of the problem?

Does that mean the Amtrak board or the collective executives are NOT a major part of the problem?

Does that mean that riders expecting better onboard and ontime LD service and more LD trains should only blame congress?

Are you saying that it is only "railfans" that are unhappy with Amtrak LD and that others who try it once or twice then stop taking it because of poor service are just undercover "railfans"?

Does anyone know how many executive members and board members of Amtrak have actually taken LD services more than once or even once to actually experience them as they are?


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## jruff001 (Sep 22, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Does that mean it is NOT Amtrak's top manager that is a major part of the problem?
> 
> Does that mean the Amtrak board or the collective executives are NOT a major part of the problem?


I am not jimdex so don't mean to put words in his mouth, but here is how I would answer:

The main problem is that Congress has not funded Amtrak adequately to provide what people here would consider a decent nationwide LD service. That, along with the other political / legislative, labor and host RR constraints and realities, means that even if Amtrak were run by the Amtrak Unlimited Dream Team, it would look largely like it does today.


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## Qapla (Sep 22, 2020)

Or, put another way ...

If congress funded the Intestate Highway system the same way they do Amtrak - all the Interstates would all be two-lane roads with pot-holes.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 22, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Or, put another way ...
> 
> If congress funded the Intestate Highway system the same way they do Amtrak - all the Interstates would all be two-lane roads with pot-holes.



And many airports would be unstaffed with no services and no parking. and who knows what the cruise terminals would look like!


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## MARC Rider (Sep 22, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Or, put another way ...
> 
> If congress funded the Intestate Highway system the same way they do Amtrak - all the Interstates would all be two-lane roads with pot-holes.


Instead of being 4-lane roads with potholes, like many of them are today.  
(I'm talking to you, I-77, between the Ohio Turnpike and Akron!  )


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## MARC Rider (Sep 22, 2020)

From the point of view of rational transportation policy, passenger rail is really only the preferred mode for trips of 200 miles or less (maybe up to 500 miles, as different journey segments can be combined into one line, and if high speed rail is built.

However, the nature of our political system (where a bunch of lightly populated rural states have a disproportionate amount of power in our Federal system) requires that any support of passenger rail by the national government has to include support for service in those lightly populated rural states. This is the only reason why we still have any long-distance passenger rail. In other words, if you want the NEC, the Acela, the other corridor service that has the potential to take significant market share from automobiles and short-distance air shuttles, you need to fund the Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, etc., so that the Senators and Representatives from those states support funding for the corridors.

I sometimes wonder if the people in charge of Amtrak understand this basic political fact of life, which is kind of ridiculous, given that if you're going to be in charge of Amtrak you have to be, to some extent, a political creature. This political fact of life is that you're stuck with running long distance trains, so you might as well do what it takes to make them successful. Instead, you get the idea that they see this as a nuisance that's keeping them from operating all those cool corridor services that they really want.

Somebody needs to shake them upside the head and get them to be more enthusiastic about the entire mission of Amtrak and start thinking of ways to upgrade the long distance service. I'd bet that in doing so, their financial performance would improve, too.

The steps that need be betaken have been described here:

1) Accurate honest accounting to determine how much these services really cost.
2) Co-locating corridor services with some of the long distance routes. It';s been pointed out that this could be easily done with the Lake Shore Limited, as it's already co-located with the Empire Corridor, and corridor service could be established on that route connected Chicago and various cities in Ohio. There must be other places where this can be done, as well. This would allow costs to be shared, thus making better accounting of the long-distance trains.
3. Come down hard on host railroads who are causing unjustified delays. 
4. Stop understaffing on-board service and in-station service. I suspect that if the trains were staffed properly, nearly all the complaints about unpleasant ind inconsistent service would stop.

Providing premium service is really an essential part of improving the financial performance of all of the trains. The RPA ridership and revenue statistics show this clearly. Perhaps we're never going back to the days of obsequious Pullman porters, starched white tablecloths, silver, and fine china with gourmet food cooked on board, but they should be able to provide a premium level service that makes it a good value proposition to pay extra to sit in a train for 48 hours when you could fly the distance in 4 hours.

The public service that justified the taxpayer support is the ability to serve relatively remote towns poorly served by anything else, as well as the slice of the population that can't fly or drive for medical reasons. The premium level service is necessary to boost the revenue to minimize the amount of taxpayer support. The political need to serve these remote towns is to get the votes from rural legislators for support for more necessary corridor service. Why the leadership at Amtrak can't see this and view it as a fun challenge instead of a nuisance is beyond me.


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## Asher (Sep 23, 2020)

I don't think the Comanche Pilot was too far off with food delivery. Even thought train schedules are not consistent, train tracking is. Except for extreme situations it's easy to see when a train is going to arrive at a particular destination. It seems like Amtrack could set up a receiving location where food could be delivered and dispersed by a attendant while in route if time was an issue. With all food deliveries, sometimes one may have to eat Shish kebab after ordering Frog legs.


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## Qapla (Sep 23, 2020)

For 3rd party food delivery to work there are some things that would be needed before the arrangements could be worked out:

Amtrak would have to "WANT" to do this
Local eateries would have to "WANT" to do this
Local delivery services would have to "WANT" to do this
Enough passengers at every "food stop" would have to "WANT" the service at that station.
Not sure there is that much desire to have such a large program instituted system wide


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## me_little_me (Sep 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> For 3rd party food delivery to work there are some things that would be needed before the arrangements could be worked out:
> 
> Amtrak would have to "WANT" to do this
> Local eateries would have to "WANT" to do this
> ...


Well, the lack of the first one precludes any meaning to the others. 

One would think there are restaurants out there that would want to increase their business.

Forget system-wide. Amtrak doesn't even want to come up with any ideas that would cost them little or nothing in an HONEST test. So the issue is a dead one.


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## Qapla (Sep 24, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Well, the lack of the first one precludes any meaning to the others.



That is why I listed that option first

I'm sure there are restaurants that want to increase their "profits" - not just their "business". If increasing the business cuts profit they are not so quick to jump on that.

An example of this is the JAX depot. The only "restaurants" close enough to make such food delivery viable are McDonalds and Krystal. Somehow, I just don't think there would be enough passengers onboard that would want food from either of these places to induce chain franchise stores like this interested in delivering to Amtrak - even if the train is on time. Not enough profit for the increased business work/expense


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 24, 2020)

They wouldn’t necessarily be working with restaurants, they would be working with local caterers just like the empire builder had done in 3 separate cities for over 10 years.

In Jacksonville, RSVP catering is literally 4 miles from the station but sure... McDonalds is the only option.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> That is why I listed that option first
> 
> I'm sure there are restaurants that want to increase their "profits" - not just their "business". If increasing the business cuts profit they are not so quick to jump on that.
> 
> An example of this is the JAX depot. The only "restaurants" close enough to make such food delivery viable are McDonalds and Krystal. Somehow, I just don't think there would be enough passengers onboard that would want food from either of these places to induce chain franchise stores like this interested in delivering to Amtrak - even if the train is on time. Not enough profit for the increased business work/expense


Read up about "ghost kitchens." The food service company doesn't necessarily have to be right near the station. It's apparently starting to be a big thing for the food service industry, as it's not clear when full in-house dining is going to be coming back. Looks like delivery type service is going to be the wave of the (near-term) future.

Also, the more complicated the logistics, the higher the cost, so the current flex dining system provided by one large nationwide caterer may be the best way to go. It's just that Amtrak needs to provide higher-quality platters and stop making unwarranted overhead charges to the food and beverage account.


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## Qapla (Sep 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> In Jacksonville, RSVP catering is literally 4 miles from the station



That does not mean they are interested in providing meals for Amtrak ... catering corporates events in a facility with a well-planned calendared event is not the same as providing brown-bag lunches to a train when you never know much ahead of time how many and what type of meals will be wanted. Catering companies don't have "already prepared foods" available like restaurants do - Then again, maybe they would ... I haven't called them to ask so I really can't say for sure.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> That does not mean they are interested in providing meals for Amtrak ... catering corporates events in a facility with a well-planned calendared event is not the same as providing brown-bag lunches to a train when you never know much ahead of time how many and what type of meals will be wanted. Catering companies don't have "already prepared foods" available like restaurants do - Then again, maybe they would ... I haven't called them to ask so I really can't say for sure.



That's literally what catering companies do.. they cater food.

You haven't ridden the Empire Builder and seen the catered meals loaded up in Portland (W), Spokane (E) or Montanna (E&W)?

Sorry if that comes off as short... it just seems like multiple posters are saying "that can't work" for things that worked just 12 months ago. I'm not saying catered food should be the future. I think good dining car food should be the future. 

Amtrak can provide good quality food on the train right now, just order better food. It's that simple. The catering company can provide anything amtrak asks for.


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## Qapla (Sep 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You haven't ridden the Empire Builder and seen the catered meals loaded up in Portland (W), Spokane (E) or Montanna (E&W)? ... Sorry if that comes off as short



No, that doesn't come off short. 

You make a good point and I don't disagree that there "could" be some arrangements for quality food at "some" stops. However, the drift I have been getting from the posts about getting food delivered to the train is that it could/should be available at any/all stops when a passenger decides he is hungry - regardless of the time of day/night or proximity to established, willing food outlets.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> No, that doesn't come off short.
> 
> You make a good point and I don't disagree that there "could" be some arrangements for quality food at "some" stops. However, the drift I have been getting from the posts about getting food delivered to the train is that it could/should be available at any/all stops when a passenger decides he is hungry - regardless of the time of day/night or proximity to established, willing food outlets.



Oh ok. I was probably reading your post wrong.

I’m thinking major terminals can load catered meals the way the empire builder has done. I don’t think that is the best solution but it’s better than flex dining imho. Even Panera bread / Jason’s deli box meals would be a huge improvement. 

Ideally we could just have good food served by Amtrak though. It seems simple enough.


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## McIntyre2K7 (Sep 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> For 3rd party food delivery to work there are some things that would be needed before the arrangements could be worked out:
> 
> Amtrak would have to "WANT" to do this
> Local eateries would have to "WANT" to do this
> ...



MARC Rider is right. So basically with this you could update the Amtrak app to include a "Trackside To-Go" section where if users are on either train they can have the option to order food from any of these destinations ahead of time. I guess you would stop taking hours 90 minutes before the trains scheduled arrival. So in this case the test trains would be the Crescent and the Coast Starlight. If the station is big enough you and there's extra space then maybe they could add a ghost kitchen in the in station. I've attached a short video about Ghost kitchens as well:




*Crescent **Southbound Train (19) *

Dinner:
Washington, DC

Breakfast:
Atlanta, GA

Lunch:
Birmingham, AL
*Northbound Train(20)*

Breakfast:
New Orleans, LA

Lunch:
Birmingham, AL

Dinner:
Atlanta, GA*Coast Starlight**Southbound Train (11)*

Lunch:
Vancouver, WA


Dinner:
Eugene-Springfield, OR


Breakfast:
San Francisco, CA
*Northbound Train (14) *

Lunch:
Santa Barbara, CA

Dinner:
Paso Robles ,CA

Breakfast:
Klamath Falls, OR

Lunch:
Eugene-Springfield, OR

Dinner:
Vancouver, WA


Most of these cities have a Uber Eats/Doordash/Grubhub presence so if anything maybe they could deliver the food to the station and then the station has like an Amazon locker thing where you just scan your QR code and a locker will open up with your food in it.

Something like this...


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## Palmetto (Sep 25, 2020)

In Eugene, there's a great restaurant right next to the station.


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## jiml (Sep 25, 2020)

The conclusion one could draw from several of the prior posts is that in these troubled times for local restaurants it might be a good idea to enlist them as partners if Amtrak were so inclined, resulting in a "win-win" for everyone. For some of these places in small towns it could be the lifeblood that keeps them in business. It's a great idea, but what are the odds and how does it start?


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## MARC Rider (Sep 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm not saying catered food should be the future. I think good dining car food should be the future.


 Uh, back in the "good old days" of say, 2103, nearly all the "good dining car food" _*was*_ catered and precooked. The only things cooked on board were the steaks and a few grill items at breakfast. Before we can decide what kind of food service is best, we have to get an idea of the true marginal costs (without all the pesky overhead charges) of supplying it.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, back in the "good old days" of say, 2103, nearly all the "good dining car food" _*was*_ catered and precooked. The only things cooked on board were the steaks and a few grill items at breakfast. Before we can decide what kind of food service is best, we have to get an idea of the true marginal costs (without all the pesky overhead charges) of supplying it.



I think we agree. By “catered food” I mean box meals that are fully prepared and loaded onto the train by a caterer that is NOT gate gourmet or whoever Amtrak is currently using. They are handed to the customer as is.

By “dining car food” I mean food that is loaded in the rail yard and stored on the dining car. That can be current flex meals, traditional dining, etc.

And I agree. I’m not suggesting Amtrak spend more money, I’m suggesting they provide a better quality menu. I don’t think that would cost any more money.

I also wish we had access to the f&b financials to see what Amtrak is spending on the current meals vs. the old ones.


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## Qapla (Sep 25, 2020)

Sometimes we watch the TV program "Flea-Market Flip". I have sometimes wondered how some of the people who bought some of the finished pieces felt after they watched the show. Especially when the contestants on the show manage to buy some item for $5 and spent another $4 on what they "enhance" the item with - then they price it at $475 and, after some "bargaining", sell it for $375. When the person who "got them to come down $100" still feel like they got a bargain when they find out it only cost the seller $9 to start with and they made $366 after the "bargain"? 

I only mention this because, how would some feel when they pay the "upcharge" to have a sleeper if part of their reason is because "meals are included" - or, if coach was allowed to but a diner meal for $25 each meal - if they found out Amtrak is only paying $1.25 for their dinner meal and even less for the breakfast items? 

Maybe that is why they have not published the actual meal costs ...


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Sometimes we watch the TV program "Flea-Market Flip". I have sometimes wondered how some of the people who bought some of the finished pieces felt after they watched the show. Especially when the contestants on the show manage to buy some item for $5 and spent another $4 on what they "enhance" the item with - then they price it at $475 and, after some "bargaining", sell it for $375. When the person who "got them to come down $100" still feel like they got a bargain when they find out it only cost the seller $9 to start with and they made $366 after the "bargain"?
> 
> I only mention this because, how would some feel when they pay the "upcharge" to have a sleeper if part of their reason is because "meals are included" - or, if coach was allowed to but a diner meal for $25 each meal - if they found out Amtrak is only paying $1.25 for their dinner meal and even less for the breakfast items?
> 
> Maybe that is why they have not published the actual meal costs ...



I actually think the opposite is true. I think the meals are costing Amtrak a considerable amount of money.

I think the only real savings is in the staffing.

What’s cheaper.... a dozen eggs or a dozen frozen breakfast sandwiches? 

What’s cheaper... a bulk bag of oatmeal, or a box of 48 individual servings of oatmeal and sugar? 

(And the list goes on....)


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## jruff001 (Sep 25, 2020)

Qapla said:


> I only mention this because, how would some feel when they pay the "upcharge" to have a sleeper if part of their reason is because "meals are included" - or, if coach was allowed to but a diner meal for $25 each meal - if they found out Amtrak is only paying $1.25 for their dinner meal and even less for the breakfast items?
> 
> Maybe that is why they have not published the actual meal costs ...


A lot of us pay primarily for the bed and private space. The food doesn't really factor into it for me and I doubt I am alone.


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## tricia (Sep 25, 2020)

jruff001 said:


> A lot of us pay primarily for the bed and private space. The food doesn't really factor into it for me and I doubt I am alone.



I too pay primarily for the bed and private space. But I do resent it when the food's so bad I get off the train feeling queasy. Especially since it's a major PIA to bring all or most food I'll need to eat on a multiday trip that starts someplace far away from my home.


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## Qapla (Sep 25, 2020)

While it is true many are primarily looking for the privacy and the comfort of a bed - the rooms are still advertised as "meals included" ... that brings an expectation that they should be meals you would "want" to eat, especially on a multi-day trip - not meals you dread when it is time to eat again.


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## jruff001 (Sep 25, 2020)

Don't get me wrong - good food is definitely a plus! But food just doesn't sway my decision all that much about whether to get a *SLEEP*er.

Remember, once upon a time (not TOO long ago), sleeping car fares generally didn't include meals, both on Amtrak and on the predecessor railroads. (Yes I know Amtrak jacked up the sleeper fares when it started including meals.)


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

jruff001 said:


> Don't get me wrong - good food is definitely a plus! But food just doesn't sway my decision all that much about whether to get a *SLEEP*er.
> 
> Remember, once upon a time (not TOO long ago), sleeping car fares generally didn't include meals, both on Amtrak and on the predecessor railroads. (Yes I know Amtrak jacked up the sleeper fares when it started including meals.)



So what you are suggesting is that no food should be included? That’s fine. I’d rather have that and be able to choose from the full cafe car menu.


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## tricia (Sep 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So what you are suggesting is that no food should be included? That’s fine. I’d rather have that and be able to choose from the full cafe car menu.



Amtrak needs a better long-distance cafe car menu, too.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

tricia said:


> Amtrak needs a better long-distance cafe car menu, too.



100%. They’ve taken quite a few good items off the menu in recent years as well. I don’t think they carry any of the iced coffees anymore on Acela or national.


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## jruff001 (Sep 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So what you are suggesting is that no food should be included? That’s fine. I’d rather have that and be able to choose from the full cafe car menu.


How did I suggest that?

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other.


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## jiml (Sep 25, 2020)

tricia said:


> Amtrak needs a better long-distance cafe car menu, too.


They can do it on Surfliners, Cascades and Downeaster. No reason it can't be done everywhere.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

jruff001 said:


> How did I suggest that?
> 
> I don't really have an opinion one way or the other.



Sorry... I guess I misunderstood. Have you ridden an amtrak sleeping car since the flex dining? 



jiml said:


> They can do it on Surfliners, Cascades and Downeaster. No reason it can't be done everywhere.



Agreed. The San Joaquin route is similar to the Surfliner but a slightly different menu I think. I had an excellent veggie burrito when riding from Sacramento once, better than several entrees I've had in traditional dining cars. Cascades is probably the best, but part of that was the classy lounge car of the Talgos... gone but not forgotten.


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## jiml (Sep 25, 2020)

I had an excellent soup and sandwich in Business Class on my last Cascades trip. They gave a voucher that covered part of the cost, but I recall the remainder was reasonable. It was the newest Talgo, so never saw the lounge.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

jiml said:


> I had an excellent soup and sandwich in Business Class on my last Cascades trip. They gave a voucher that covered part of the cost, but I recall the remainder was reasonable. It was the newest Talgo, so never saw the lounge.



I loved the old Talgo Lounges, the "Bistro" cars. Those cars and the heritage diners that had been rebuilt with a similar look (the ones with the starlight ceilings) were my favorite food service cars.


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## jiml (Sep 25, 2020)

They used to have White Castles on the Midwest trains. That's something that deserves to go nationwide.


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## PVD (Sep 25, 2020)

Sure there is, the agencies that finance those trains are willing to accept losses in food service as part of increasing overall satisfaction, and improving financials by attracting more customers at a higher yield. Amtrak is not allowed to do that, food and beverage service has to stand on its own.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

PVD said:


> Sure there is, the agencies that finance those trains are willing to accept losses in food service as part of increasing overall satisfaction, and improving financials by attracting more customers at a higher yield. Amtrak is not allowed to do that, food and beverage service has to stand on its own.



Do you have a source that shows that the state supported trains lose more or less money on f&b vs. the National trains?

I can’t see how the numbers would be drastically different.


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## PVD (Sep 25, 2020)

No, but some agencies, such as the agency that runs the DownEaster discuss food service in their annual reports. They have very high customer satisfaction, but clearly lose money, despite the fact that it (the food service) is a contracted out and privately staffed not Amtrak run service. There is a difference in types of state supported routes, in that some are State owned, and Amtrak is a contractor, and those that Amtrak has an agreement where the State provides money to cover losses and has major input into what is offered. Amtrak isn't allowed to continue to lose money on F&B, a State can make the choice on its trains, or subsidize it on a train they support. The LD trains don't have the ability to use F&B as part of a marketing plan.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2020)

PVD said:


> No, but some agencies, such as the agency that runs the DownEaster discuss food service in their annual reports. They have very high customer satisfaction, but clearly lose money, despite the fact that it (the food service) is a contracted out and privately staffed not Amtrak run service. There is a difference in types of state supported routes, in that some are State owned, and Amtrak is a contractor, and those that Amtrak has an agreement where the State provides money to cover losses and has major input into what is offered. Amtrak isn't allowed to continue to lose money on F&B, a State can make the choice on its trains, or subsidize it on a train they support. The LD trains don't have the ability to use F&B as part of a marketing plan.



Which is why I asked if there is any evidence that having a better cafe menu increases operating costs or reduces f&b revenue? I would think that a better menu and better inventory management would increase revenue.


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## PVD (Sep 25, 2020)

I would agree with that. I think it would increase revenue, and if it was a normal business, that would be part of a plan to improve overall yield per passenger. But they are handicapped by something that most businesses are not. F&B is standalone rather than part of the whole pie. I might want to increase food costs slightly to put out a much better selection, and if I improve revenue and only cut losses slightly, but lots more people like my service and ride my trains and bring in much higher ticket sales, in a private business, you would happy. But that doesn't satisfy the congressional mandate to eliminate F&B losses. I can't lose 50,000 more (arbitrary number) to sell 250,000 more in tickets. United or American or Delta can....


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## Qapla (Sep 25, 2020)

Like many "venues" with a captive audience, Amtrak prices their excuse for food like a stadium or movie theater does. Having ridden in coach, I have heard what people say - at least on the trains I have been on. More than once I have heard people bemoan the high cost of buying a microwaved (rubberized) burger for what Amtrak charges. It tends to lead to those who feel they "must" eat "something" to spend as little as they can getting "something" to eat. If the food was better, the menu larger and the cost lower there would be more sales to people who just "want" something to eat .... not just to those who feel they "need" something/anything to eat - and, they would buy more of it.

Why doesn't Amtrak offer popcorn like movie theaters do? It doesn't cost much to make. It stores in very little space before it is popped. It cooks itself once you turn the popper on. It is a popular snack people are willing to pay for. It encourages people to buy more drinks.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2020)

The Amtrak prices are reasonable for what they are. Slightly more than a Starbucks but way less than Theme Park / Stadium Prices. Bottled Water at Starbucks $1.80, Amtrak $2.50 Disney $3.50 Broadway / Stadiums $5+ 

The current national cafe menu is actually looking better than in the past. Provided it's properly stocked there are some solid options. - https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...ts/menus/national/National-Cafe-Menu-1119.pdf

Amtrak does sell popcorn, not made on the train of course which would be way more trouble than it's worth since the machine would have to be installed and meet all the safety codes.


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## Palmetto (Sep 26, 2020)

Mac n cheese skillet sounds good. Has anyone tried it?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 26, 2020)

The cinnamon danish is back on the cafe menu?

My favorite!


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## Qapla (Sep 26, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak does sell popcorn, not made on the train of course which would be way more trouble than it's worth since the machine would have to be installed and meet all the safety codes.



If RK Stores can have popcorn machines right at their service/checkout counter - don't see why there would be prohibitive safety concerns for Amtrak. But, what do I know ...


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## PVD (Sep 26, 2020)

Most commercial popcorn machines that make fresh popcorn use hot oil, although air popping is getting more popular for home use. If you are selling pre-popped, you might as well sell pre-packed, since inventory and sanitary considerations are much lighter than the big bags of pre pop (which also take up quite a bit of room)


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 26, 2020)

Having a popcorn popper using hot oil on a moving train sounds like a real recipe for disaster.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2020)

MikefromCrete said:


> Having a popcorn popper using hot oil on a moving train sounds like a real recipe for disaster.



Sadly I’ve done it. And it is. It’s a real mess. The oil and the kernels get everywhere. 



Qapla said:


> If RK Stores can have popcorn machines right at their service/checkout counter - don't see why there would be prohibitive safety concerns for Amtrak. But, what do I know ...



Are you in danger of the rk store derailing and turning on its side and the popcorn machine killing someone?


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## railiner (Sep 26, 2020)

probably microwave popcorn would work...but it would take up a lot of time to pop individual portion bags.....


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## McIntyre2K7 (Sep 26, 2020)

railiner said:


> probably microwave popcorn would work...but it would take up a lot of time to pop individual portion bags.....



It could work if they sell the mini popcorn bags and use a very high wattage microwave. I have a 1300 watt microwave and it cooks those mini bags in 35 seconds.


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## PVD (Sep 26, 2020)

Fresh popped is a high margin item and as a salty snack encourages purchases of large highly profitable soft drinks, a perfect movie theater/sports venue type item. The very large bags of reasonably fresh pre-popped, if not kept in storage too long, and displayed in a warmer is decent, but definitely not as good as fresh. The mice really liked it, too. When I worked in a skating rink in the 70's we used to get popcorn and candy from the Arthur Sarnow Candy and Popcorn Company. I think they are actually still in business.


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## MrNews (Sep 26, 2020)

One big problem with microwave popcorn is if you cook it just right, it smells fabulous. Twenty seconds too long, and you have the foulest smell which lingers (everywhere) for hours, if not days! 

I, too, book a sleeper for the privacy and bed. The "free" meals were a bonus when I took my first long-distance trip ten years ago. Our most recent trip (September '19, Silver Star) with no dining car (we brought our own food, boiled water for soup & tea in our roomette) was just fine. It would be lovely if they brought back competent dining service for first-class passengers, but that's highly unlikely, even when the pandemic is over. For that kind of rail experience, you now have to go to Canada or Europe...


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## toddinde (Sep 26, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So what you are suggesting is that no food should be included? That’s fine. I’d rather have that and be able to choose from the full cafe car menu.


I think there is room for an improved dining car. One that offers sit down service throughout the day, but a simpler menu of quality items. The extent to which food is pre made is a matter of economics. The point was made that pre made is inherently more expensive with the labor cost being the delta. I like the dining cars on the average intercity European train. They seem to meet the need, flexibly, with sit down service. This is not so hard to figure out.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2020)

toddinde said:


> I think there is room for an improved dining car. One that offers sit down service throughout the day, but a simpler menu of quality items. The extent to which food is pre made is a matter of economics. The point was made that pre made is inherently more expensive with the labor cost being the delta. I like the dining cars on the average intercity European train. They seem to meet the need, flexibly, with sit down service. This is not so hard to figure out.



At this point the sit down service isn’t even on my concern list, I just want food that I actually want to consume.


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## Qapla (Sep 26, 2020)

MikefromCrete said:


> Having a popcorn popper using hot oil on a moving train sounds like a real recipe for disaster.



There is some merit in that - guess the same goes for coffee machines ... hot, scalding water is very dangerous.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Are you in danger of the rk store derailing and turning on its side and the popcorn machine killing someone?



No, but then, I do believe there are already several things on a moving train that can become lethal in a derailment.


The popcorn was just a thought ... I'm happy to accept it may not be the best idea - but then, neither is "flex dining"


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2020)

Qapla said:


> There is some merit in that - guess the same goes for coffee machines ... hot, scalding water is very dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It can be done, it would just have to be specially built for the service like the coffee makers, refrigerators, etc. if you notice on airlines and Amtrak everything has latches on it, it’s all bolted down, can lock in place, etc. 

It’s actually a good point to make regarding costs to operate food service on Amtrak. A restaurant can just buy a commercial coffee maker. Amtrak can’t. It’s a much more complex and expensive process due to all of the safety laws.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 26, 2020)

What will happen if Congress repeals the "Mica Rule?" That is, F&B are no longer require to pay for themselves. Would Amtrak management upgrade the food service, or have they bought into the philosophy that food service is not essential for their mission?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> What will happen if Congress repeals the "Mica Rule?" That is, F&B are no longer require to pay for themselves. Would Amtrak management upgrade the food service, or have they bought into the philosophy that food service is not essential for their mission?



What is the current Mica rule by the way? Is there any actual new rule or is it just Mica trying to enforce the original law. I’m sure it’s been linked to somewhere but it gets so confusing. 

If Amtrak survives I’m sure a new manager will have a “new” idea to have better food and service on the trains. Just like we went up and down with the simplified dining service in the early 2000’s.


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## Ziv (Sep 26, 2020)

China and Russia are not as litigious as the US, but sleeper trains in both countries have large samovars with gallons of steaming hot water at the end of each sleeper car. If they can do it safely... 



Qapla said:


> There is some merit in that - guess the same goes for coffee machines ... hot, scalding water is very dangerous.


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## PVD (Sep 26, 2020)

Who says it's safe?


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## joelkfla (Sep 27, 2020)

jiml said:


> They used to have White Castles on the Midwest trains. That's something that deserves to go nationwide.


Compared to White Castle, flex dining is health food.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> Compared to White Castle, flex dining is health food.



The braised beef has 2,340 mg of sodium. 

A White Castle slider has 360 mg of sodium.


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## Qapla (Sep 27, 2020)

So, you could enjoy 6 White Castles or Krystals and still have less sodium than the Amtrak meal 

Or maybe just eat 4 of them with fries ... sounds good to me


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## MARC Rider (Sep 27, 2020)

Sometimes "inconsistent service" is necessary for operational reasons. However, management has to be proactive in informing the customers about the current process.

For example .... This morning my daughter and I went over to the local bagel shop to get sandwiches and buy a bag of fresh bagels for tomorrow night's Yom Kippur break-the-fast. As you can imagine, we weren't the only people out and about doing this. Thus, the bagel shop changed its traffic flow and set up bagel ordering tables by a side entrance and had people enter through there and then go to the main store to pay and/or order sandwiches to carry out or eat outside. This was a good idea under the circumstances, given the heavier than usual traffic and the need to keep long lines from bunching up inside. 

The only problem they had was that they needed to have a large sign on the front door directing people who wanted to buy bagels to go to the side. This they didn't have. While we were waiting inside for our sandwiches, we saw numerous customers in search of bagels enter through the usual door only to be told (more or less politely) to go around the side. It was kind of amusing to see the confused, deer-in-the-headlights look that many of these people had. We probably had the same look when we walked in the "wrong" door. It would probably ended a lot of confusion if the management of the store had posted a large sign outside. I'm not sure why they didn't do it.

The same applies on Amtrak dining cars or cafe cars. There may be times when it's operationally better to have customers wait at the end of the car, and other times when it's better to have them come to the center of the car to get their instructions. What the staff needs to do is just put up a clear, legible, professional-looking sign that instructs the customers about what to do. There would be a lot less need to bark orders like a boot camp drill instructor, and the travel experience could be more pleasant for all involved. There are lots of cheap printers out there on the market, so there's no reason why the crew couldn't do this. They all seem to have lots of digital devices, all of which have some kind of text editor with a printer driver.


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## Georgie (Sep 27, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> If we really care about LD trains and seeing them continue, *On-Board Service needs to be fixed*.
> 
> If you ride the LD trains long enough, you'll run across OBS that are absolutely passionate about their job, OBS that treat customers like they're an inconvenience and OBS that basically get the job done without too much fuss.
> 
> ...



You have some great ideas here! (sorry this is a bit of a long reply)

Although, first up ...
1. Union workers - are a whole 'nother world of 'the good, the bad and the ugly'. You really can not blame the Union for failures in quality customer service; besides Amtrak would have to replace the entire workforce; and the cost (not including legal consequences) would be enough to buy a whole new rail system.
2. Seniority - if there's a pecking order, it is absolutely steadfast and hiring outside, would be difficult to squeeze through Union contract loopholes. The stigma of 'Lazy Union workers' more than often comes from failure in company management. Disgruntled employees are still protected somewhat under contract conditions, and remain in tenure for pensions etc.

Customer service begins with the CEO and trickles down through management:
The best way to motivate employees is to engage them and empower them; give them a reason to feel pride in their role with the company. If Management fails, everyone fails. If the CEO & VPs are raking in bonuses and not sharing the profits ... *they simply fail not only the workers, but the general public as well*. Additionally, investing in hiring and training the right people from the start is imperative. However, right now for example, with the Covid pandemic layoffs, management thinks that cutting back on employee power will save their bottom line instead a getting creative in seeking new business and travel solutions and marketing; just adds to the frustration. 

3. Emails & Surveys - these are great! Most people with complaints will happily fill out a survey, and the faster Amtrak sends out those surveys the less likely a disgruntled guest will go onto Tripadvisor (for example) to share with the world. As long as Amtrak actually follows up respectively. (and they fail at this too) This is the modern day 'word of mouth' marketing technique. 

I believe that if America wasn't so damn beautiful with it's diverse terrains and climates to entice long distance rail-travel lovers, the system would fail outside of a run-down shuttle service. Until someone in management makes a difference, we all suffer the inconsistencies. And of course there are always some truly decent humans who do love what they do and find personal gratitude that resonates through their work and how they treat others .... sadly, these gems are few and far between and they tend not to stay long.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Sometimes "inconsistent service" is necessary for operational reasons. However, management has to be proactive in informing the customers about the current process.
> 
> For example .... This morning my daughter and I went over to the local bagel shop to get sandwiches and buy a bag of fresh bagels for tomorrow night's Yom Kippur break-the-fast. As you can imagine, we weren't the only people out and about doing this. Thus, the bagel shop changed its traffic flow and set up bagel ordering tables by a side entrance and had people enter through there and then go to the main store to pay and/or order sandwiches to carry out or eat outside. This was a good idea under the circumstances, given the heavier than usual traffic and the need to keep long lines from bunching up inside.
> 
> ...



To be fair to Amtrak, I think it’s a dining car thing. I’ve been similarly barked at in dining Cars on VIA rail and on mainline steam excursions.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> To be fair to Amtrak, I think it’s a dining car thing. I’ve been similarly barked at in dining Cars on VIA rail and on mainline steam excursions.


Oho! Now we find out that this isn't "bad service," it's a hallowed railroad tradition!  And it has nothing to do with "lazy union employees." I guess we shouldn't be complaining about it, we should willingly be accepting of it, and enjoy it as part of the experience. I guess "experiential train service" can mean a lot of things. 

I wonder if anyone got barked at when they patronized the Southern Pacific Automat Car.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Oho! Now we find out that this isn't "bad service," it's a hallowed railroad tradition!  And it has nothing to do with "lazy union employees." I guess we shouldn't be complaining about it, we should willingly be accepting of it, and enjoy it as part of the experience. I guess "experiential train service" can mean a lot of things.
> 
> I wonder if anyone got barked at when they patronized the Southern Pacific Automat Car.



Not sure how sarcastic you’re being but I certainly wasn’t saying it’s a good thing.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not sure how sarcastic you’re being but I certainly wasn’t saying it’s a good thing.


"Sarcastic?" Who, me?


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## Nick Farr (Sep 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> To be fair to Amtrak, I think it’s a dining car thing.



I've never been barked at in a dining car in Europe, even when the attendant didn't speak English or Spanish.

(Well, maybe they were barking at me in German, but they did so politely.)


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## Exvalley (Sep 30, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Why doesn't Amtrak offer popcorn like movie theaters do? It doesn't cost much to make.


Because they don't want train cars looking like the floor of a movie theater?


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## OBS (Sep 30, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> Because they don't want train cars looking like the floor of a movie theater?


Or smelling like the lobby of the movie theatre.
They did do microwave popcorn way back 35-40 years ago...the smell went everywhere. Even worse, when the popcorn started to burn it stunk even worse. Not to mention the mess when the bags of popcorn used to catch on fire in the "commercial" (extra strong) microwaves....


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## Qapla (Sep 30, 2020)

I'm sure there are negatives to all ideas ... perhaps that's why Amtrak has cut so many services - they only look at the negatives


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 30, 2020)

OBS said:


> Or smelling like the lobby of the movie theatre.



In the days when theaters popped their own popcorn, I don't recall an aroma that was unpleasant. If anything, it was an aroma of "buy some"!


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## MARC Rider (Sep 30, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> In the days when theaters popped their own popcorn, I don't recall an aroma that was unpleasant. If anything, it was an aroma of "buy some"!


What some people find "not unpleasant," other people find offensive, and some claim that it causes them health issues. Nowadays, people aren't shy if they find something unpleasant. Back in the day, it seems like it took a lot more to get people to speak up. When I recall my youth, I'm amazed at the combination of odors we dealt with -- perfume, tobacco smoke, cannabis smoke, high-sulfur diesel exhaust, etc. The odor of fresh popped popcorn, I guess was nothing compared to that.


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## Qapla (Sep 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> What some people find "not unpleasant," other people find offensive



Then, perhaps they should quit serving coffee ... I would rather smell corn popping than coffee burning brewing


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 30, 2020)

This is getting good let me kept the popcorn... wait... that means I’m taking a side that I don’t necessarily agree on... oh no!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 19, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> To be quite honest, I've been riding long distance trains for quite a while, and I've never had really bad service.





Devil's Advocate said:


> To be quite honest, I'm not sure you've ever had _really good_ service with which to compare it.





MARC Rider said:


> Actually, any kind of "really good service" would make me uncomfortable. [...] You don't need to have somebody constantly at your beck and call during an overnight train ride.


Really good service does not wait on you hand and foot. It listens to requests, anticipates needs, and corrects mistakes. It treats customers with dignity rather than ignoring or arguing with them over minor disputes. Some Amtrak staff do this but other staff treat customers like a barely tolerated nuisance. As a regular traveler I'm rarely the target of their ire but I'm also unable to ignore the way some staff treat new and infrequent travelers. Seeing Amtrak staff balk at minor requests, make up their own rules, and snap at customers for simple misunderstandings is difficult for me to stomach.


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## me_little_me (Oct 20, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Really good service does not wait on you hand and foot. It listens to requests, anticipates needs, and corrects mistakes. It treats customers with dignity rather than ignoring or arguing with them over minor disputes. Some Amtrak staff do this but other staff treat customers like a barely tolerated nuisance. As a regular traveler I'm rarely the target of their ire but I'm also unable to ignore the way some staff treat new and infrequent travelers. Seeing Amtrak staff balk at minor requests, make up their own rules, and snap at customers for simple misunderstandings is difficult for me to stomach.


Really good service for sleeper service also includes the following:

Greeting and welcoming passengers by name when boarding since they have that information.
Giving your name to the passengers and how you wish to be addressed.
Offering help loading baggage on train to older people, those obviously needing assistance or those apparently needing it, not just offering it when disembarking (which is a sign they are just looking for a tip).
If you look lost, telling you which direction and how far your room is down the hall.
Letting you know you'll stop by to see if they need help.
Letting you know immediately if it is meal time or when meal times are. Offer to bring meals to those with limited mobility if dining is in diner car.
Visiting you in your room as soon as possible and, if you are unfamiliar with the room, explaining everything including room features, shower and toilet locations and necessary information, diner and lounge/cafe location as well as OFFICIAL rules (smoking, alcohol, noise, etc)
Letting you know when sleep/wake room conversion is available.
Letting you know if you are already checked in with the conductor or if you will handle it for them.
Assure them that you have cleaned and inspected the room.
Offer to assist them, if necessary, with baggage on disembarkation.
Let them know you will assure they are awake 1/2 hour before nighttime disembarkation.
SMILE! BE FRIENDLY! BE NICE!
I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 21, 2020)

A 2019 January trip on the Silver Meteor, boarding at Fort Lauderdale, my SCA did many of the above list of "good service" items. Much to my surprise, he informed me that the Dining Car was serving breakfast and invited me to go there. (I didn't expect breakfast that morning.) A fellow AU Forum member, Bratkinson, was also told the same thing (I don't remember clearly, but I think he was in a different Sleeper, so it would have been by a different SCA). I was seated when he joined me that morning. A great way to begin what was a good Amtrak trip!


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