# Late Empire builder (#8, #28)



## km swenson (Feb 8, 2011)

The Empire Builder has been running quite late both east and west for almost a week now. Some portions have even cancelled. How long might this continue? Why is it happening? What are the chances of an on-time (or at least not 7 hours late) trip on Friday, Feb. 11?


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## km swenson (Feb 8, 2011)

I forgot to add I would be traveling between St. Paul, MN and Columbus, WI on Friday, heading east on the morning train and returning west bound in the evening.


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## Rail Freak (Feb 8, 2011)

I'll be on #28 (13th) & hoping for an on time run :giggle: but have pretty much accepted a miss connection to the #30 in Chicago!

Have Fun


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## Ispolkom (Feb 8, 2011)

km swenson said:


> The Empire Builder has been running quite late both east and west for almost a week now. Some portions have even cancelled. How long might this continue? Why is it happening? What are the chances of an on-time (or at least not 7 hours late) trip on Friday, Feb. 11?


It's winter on the Hi Line, and given the combination of bad weather, an upsurge in freight traffic, and few unfortunate incidents (that recent bomb scare, for instance) the Empire Builder is not running on time. Remember that since the train is turned around in Seattle (and Portland), if the westbound #7 is significantly late, the eastbound #8 can't possibly leave on time. In either direction, small problems can cause big delays just because it's so hard to work outside when wind chills head below -40.

I'd expect your eastbound train to be late. The westbound train has a better chance of being on time, since it's just starting its journey.

Now, if we had a train on the route St. Paul-Chicago, you'd have much better chance for on-time travel. The chances for such a train, though, seem slim. In today's Minneapolis paper there's a depressing article.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 8, 2011)

km swenson said:


> The Empire Builder has been running quite late both east and west for almost a week now. Some portions have even cancelled. How long might this continue? Why is it happening? What are the chances of an on-time (or at least not 7 hours late) trip on Friday, Feb. 11?


Really late EB running in the winter usually correlates with major snowstorms or temperatures below -10 on the northern plains (as is the case now). Temps are forecast to warm up by Thursday, so I'll be optimistic and say there is a >50% chance that your eastbound #8 will be less than four hours late.


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## yarrow (Feb 8, 2011)

maybe it is comparing apples to oranges, but does anyone know how "the canadian" travelling the high "hi-line" (alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba) is doing getting their passengers to their destinations near their scheduled times?


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## anir dendroica (Feb 8, 2011)

Unfortunately VIA train status is not available online, so it's hard to keep tabs on the Canadian


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## anir dendroica (Feb 11, 2011)

#8 was "only" 1:25 late out of MSP this morning. It looks like the extreme delays ended with the extreme cold.

Mark


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## TraneMan (Feb 22, 2011)

I've been watching time on the Builder, and seems like everyday it's late. anywhere from 3 to 5 hours late. What's been going on?? I sure hope it's not like that this summer!


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## Edgefan (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm currently on #30 Capitol Limited. This IS EB related as we sat in CUS for over an hour waiting for yesterday's arrival of a very late EB. I completed my entire dinner in the confines of the cave. Not Empire Builder related. 20 minutes outside of Chicago we lost the lead engine and sat for over another hour. (very funny story with this, but maybe another time) We are now east of Pittsburgh (just) and sitting again. We lost our slot and the freights are having their way with us! Just need to make the #19 Crescent connection in WAS at 6:30 PM Looking to arrive between 4 and 5 this afternoon, barring any more delays.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 22, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> I've been watching time on the Builder, and seems like everyday it's late. anywhere from 3 to 5 hours late. What's been going on?? I sure hope it's not like that this summer!


I think that it's winter on the Hi Line. Probably the upswing in freight on the northern Transcon doesn't help once the Empire Builder is delayed.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 22, 2011)

Just when the EB starts getting close to running on schedule, something else happens...

Looks like they have one track back in service now.

From BNSF website:

02/21/2011

Preliminary Report: Derailment in Williston, North Dakota

BNSF has a report that train G ABATAC9 19 has derailed in Williston, North Dakota at approximately 2:56 a.m. CT on Monday, February 21, 2011. This location is approximately 324 miles northeast of Billings, Montana.

BNSF personnel are on the scene to investigate the derailment damages. At this time, both main tracks are out of service with no estimated time of opening. BNSF may re-route some traffic in order to minimize impact to service and will continue to provide customers with additional information as it becomes available.

Customers may experience delays of 48-72 hours on shipments moving through this corridor. Updated shipment information is always available through the Rail Central tool in the secure bnsf.com. If you have any questions, please contact BNSF Customer Support at 1-888-428- 2673, option 4, option 3.

02/22/2011

Update Report: Derailment in Williston, North Dakota

In a Service Advisory issued on February 21, 2011, BNSF reported that train G ABATAC9 19 derailed in Williston, North Dakota. Main track two was restored to service at 8:45 a.m. CT on February 22, 2011. The current estimate for main track one to return to service is at 9:00 p.m. CT on February 22, 2011.

Due to the congestion resulted from this service interruption, customers should plan for an additional 24 to 36 hours of transit time on shipments moving through this corridor. Updated shipment information is always available through the Rail Central tool in the secure bnsf.com.

If you have any questions, please contact BNSF Customer Support at 1-888-428-2673, option 4, option 3.


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## mwmnp (Feb 22, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Preliminary Report: Derailment in Williston, North Dakota
> 
> BNSF has a report that train G ABATAC9 19 has derailed in Williston, North Dakota at approximately 2:56 a.m. CT on Monday, February 21, 2011. This location is approximately 324 miles northeast of Billings, Montana.


Yep, this was the latest dilemma to plague the EB this winter. A bus bridge was established yesterday (February 21) between Minot and Havre to get Amtrak passengers around the derailment site.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Feb 22, 2011)

yarrow said:


> maybe it is comparing apples to oranges, but does anyone know how "the canadian" travelling the high "hi-line" (alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba) is doing getting their passengers to their destinations near their scheduled times?


When I took the Canadian in February 2007, we arrived in Toronto about an hour late, and that was only due to the strikes on Canadian National as the crew abandoned a train on the mainline and it took 45 minutes to get the offending freight shoved on to a siding so we could continue.

As for weather delays as far I know there were none.


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## bretton88 (Feb 22, 2011)

6 hour layovers in mid points, like Jasper and Winnipeg really help the Canadian OTP. If Amtrak had recovery time like that, the EB would never be late.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Feb 22, 2011)

bretton88 said:


> 6 hour layovers in mid points, like Jasper and Winnipeg really help the Canadian OTP. If Amtrak had recovery time like that, the EB would never be late.


Actually Jasper is 1 hour 35 min and Winnipeg is 3 hours. When I rode it in 2007 the layovers were not as long.

I'm actually riding it next month, I will get to see how its doing now.


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## Bierboy (Feb 22, 2011)

The Amtrak Status Map (http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/Amtrak/status/StatusMaps/AmtrakStatusMapWest.htm) doesn't even show the #8 anywhere on the route?! #7 departed CUS on time this afternoon. The #7 that's in Washington State is now 6 hours 34 minutes late...


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## apok86 (Feb 22, 2011)

Does anyone know how late the 8/28 EB needs to be running before Amtrak busitutes people from msp to chi?


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## anir dendroica (Feb 22, 2011)

There are 22 hours between scheduled arrival in Chicago (as #8) and scheduled departure the next day as #7. I imagine at least six hours are required for pre-departure servicing, so Amtrak might consider turning the train in MSP if it is over 16 hours late. This has happened occasionally for trains running about 24 hours behind due to derailments/major breakdowns, but it doesn't occur more than once or twice a year. If weather conditions are sufficiently bad, Amtrak will run the very late train to Chicago and cancel the next day's departure.

Amtrak sometimes offers bustitution to Chicago for passengers with a connecting train; I don't know what the window of lateness is for this, but I would guess 2-6 hours behind schedule (< 2, train will probably make connections, > 6, bus would arrive too late). In these cases, pax with a final destination of Chicago or between MSP and Chicago will have an option to stay on the train. If the train is later than 5-6 hours behind schedule, they may still run a bus MSP-Chicago on time, but passengers boarding prior to MSP are out of luck in terms of Chicago connections.

Mark


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## fairviewroad (Feb 22, 2011)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> When I took the Canadian in February 2007, we arrived in Toronto about an hour late, and that was only due to the strikes on Canadian National as the crew abandoned a train on the mainline and it took 45 minutes to get the offending freight shoved on to a siding so we could continue.
> 
> As for weather delays as far I know there were none.


Likewise, when I took the Empire Builder from Grand Forks to Portland in December of last year, we arrived in PDX only 15 minutes late.

You can't really draw any conclusions, good or bad, on the basis of one trip.

(Another difference btw the VIA route and the EB is that the VIA route runs only 3x a week. I'm sure the EB performance would be dramatically

increased if they dropped 4 departures a week, but I highly doubt anyone here would like that.)


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## trainfan (Feb 22, 2011)

Will be on #8 in a couple weeks and the the way it looks I better have a backup

plan for missing Wolverine 354 at 6pm . I dont want to be stuck on an AMVAN in the

middle of the night for a 5 hour trip! (happened last time!) Can you insist on a

hotel? If you have a reservation will Amtrak pay? Can anyone recomend a hotel close

to CUS ?

Thanks

Trainfan


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## tim49424 (Feb 22, 2011)

apok86 said:


> Does anyone know how late the 8/28 EB needs to be running before Amtrak busitutes people from msp to chi?


I was scheduled to be on #8 a couple days before Christmas and the train was running 2-hours late and they did a bustitution. The same time frame was true a couple years previous. I board in TOH and I fully expect it to happen again when I ride the EB in a couple weeks.


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## apok86 (Feb 22, 2011)

tim54449 said:


> apok86 said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know how late the 8/28 EB needs to be running before Amtrak busitutes people from msp to chi?
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'm surprised they ran the bus for a delay of only 2 hours but I guess if people are expecting to transfer to a 6pm train leaving chi it would make sense.


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## Bierboy (Feb 22, 2011)

apok86 said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> > apok86 said:
> ...


We're gonna be on the #8 in three weeks with a connection to the Illinois Zephyr scheduled about 2 hours after arrival...and I HATE bus travel...ugh....


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## mwmnp (Feb 22, 2011)

Here's some more evidence that the EB is cursed.  From the Empire Builder Yahoo Group:



> The tracks east of Williston opened today, but only one was opened by thismorning, so there is a bus bridge again today between Minot and Havre.
> 
> Westbound passengers are in for a special treat. After boarding train
> 
> ...


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## EB_OBS (Feb 22, 2011)

Yep, BNSF derailment 52 miles west of Whitefish, MT. Over 2200 ft of track and ties need to be replaced. Complicating matters is that the usual staff and contractors to handle such a situation are in Willitson, ND. Additionally, the only access to the area are backroads which aren't maintained well.


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## AlanB (Feb 22, 2011)

trainfan said:


> Will be on #8 in a couple weeks and the the way it looks I better have a backup
> 
> plan for missing Wolverine 354 at 6pm . I dont want to be stuck on an AMVAN in the
> 
> ...


No, you cannot insist on a hotel. It's Amtrak's option as to what they offer you. And if you refuse the offer, then other than providing you with a refund for your ticket, Amtrak's obligations to you end with your refusal to accept their offer.


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## yarrow (Feb 22, 2011)

mwmnp said:


> Here's some more evidence that the EB is cursed.  From the Empire Builder Yahoo Group:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the poor eb. thanks for the link to the eb group. looks interesting.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 22, 2011)

That's three grain train derailments in three days on the BNSF/MRL in ND and Montana. Cold-weather pull-aparts perhaps?

Mark


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## jmbgeg (Feb 22, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Yep, BNSF derailment 52 miles west of Whitefish, MT. Over 2200 ft of track and ties need to be replaced. Complicating matters is that the usual staff and contractors to handle such a situation are in Willitson, ND. Additionally, the only access to the area are backroads which aren't maintained well.


I am no expert in track maintenance but it amazes me that the closest repair crew for damaged tracks is in Williston, ND. Williston is 556 miles east of Whitefish which makes it 608 miles from the derailment. Spokane, WA is only 251 miles from Whitefish and 199 from the derailment; Havre is 254 from Whitefish and 306 from the derailment. Given the major rail operations in both those towns you have to believe they have track repair crews closer that Williston. I could obviously be wrong.


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## tim49424 (Feb 22, 2011)

apok86 said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> > apok86 said:
> ...


When I was bussed from Tomah to Chicago, I was scheduled to catch the Pere Marquette into Michigan, which left at 5:20. The bus arrived at Union Station at 5:05.....not much time for me to catch my connecting train, but plenty of time for a 6 PM train. The first time I had to do the bus from TOH to CHI, we didn't arrive until after 6 PM due to weather. I was scheduled to catch the PM, but instead Amtrak put me up in a hotel, gave me $30 in cab fare and $30 in meal money. I used the meal money on a Greyhound ticket, being that it was Christmas Eve and I didn't care to miss the family festivities. Also, Amtrak refunded my PM ticket.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 22, 2011)

Hulcher is the main contracting company that deals with derailments, using custom-built couterbalanced boom trucks to re-rail or move derailed cars. Their equipment bases are fairly far apart: http://www.hulcher.com/locations.html - and I imagine a major derailment might require equipment from more than one base. So it makes sense to me that they could be deployed in Williston at the moment thus taking longer to start cleanup in Whitefish.


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## mwmnp (Feb 23, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> That's three grain train derailments in three days on the BNSF/MRL in ND and Montana. Cold-weather pull-aparts perhaps?
> 
> Mark


I was wondering if the wild swing in temperatures seen over roughly the last couple of weeks in Williston had anything to do with the derailment in that area. Take a look at the highs and lows over the last 12 days:

DY MAX MIN

11 33 26

12 41 30

13 42 29 

14 44 19

15 42 24

16 38 21

17 29 -1

18 1 -7

19 5 -3

20 1 -4

21 4 -17

22 25 -5


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## ColdRain&Snow (Feb 23, 2011)

Just came into Chicago from Portland on 28/8(20). Bustitution from Havre to Minot was rough. One of the buses broke down just after leaving Havre, and the U-Haul truck carrying the checked baggage got lost in Minot and drove all over town looking for the station. We got to the train in Minot last night about 10:20P, but waited there for 4 hours until the last busload of fellow bustitutes finally rolled in. Today went better but we held at 7 hours late all the way through to CUS. Sleeper pax had abbreviated dinner menu, and coach pax were offered a complimentary stew dinner. All connecting pax were put up in a hotel. I built an overnight into my plans and am falling back on that, much to my relief. All things considered, Amtrak did a fine job getting us through the situation out there. Heard there were 30 cars involved.


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## GoldenSpike (Feb 23, 2011)

km swenson said:


> The Empire Builder has been running quite late both east and west for almost a week now. Some portions have even cancelled. How long might this continue? Why is it happening? What are the chances of an on-time (or at least not 7 hours late) trip on Friday, Feb. 11?


Yesterday I was due to make a trip TAC-SEA-MKE hoping to enjoy the winter scenery. Instead the trip turned into SN-A-FU.

A day before leaving a friend told me the EB 8 was ten hours late. Before setting out on a long drive to Tacoma, I called Amtrak to confirm

the train was running, let alone on time as I only had a 8-hour pad in MKE for another mode of transportation. No problem....#8 leaves Seattle at the regular time of 4:45 p.m..

After making the long drive to TAC, I learned #8 would leave SEA 3 hours late departing. No problem.

After boarding the (45-minute late) Talgo to SEA, another annoucement: #8 pax would be bussed to Spokane, then bussed to Whitefish, MT! By the time we arrived in Seattle it was near time for the busses to depart. They hustled me to a counter agent who couldn't guarantee the busses would even make it over the pass, let alone tell me when #8 would depart from Whitefish if they made it.

They held the bus up while trying to weigh my options. Trying to be nice the agent suggested I call Custormer Service for options. While stood there at the counter on terminal hold waiting to even get an rep to transfer me - once done then I'm told they only handle 'complaints', not 'options' yada, yada. I gave my cell phone to the agent to speak with them (which at first he wouldn't do) resulting in an exhange of 'words' between the two. By the time I got it back on the CS person on the phone told me the ticket agent didn't know what he was talking about.

I canceled the trip. I asked for and received a refund on my TAC-SEA ticket that I just completed. The agent personally went and collected the ticket the Conductor turned in. I asked for and received free passage back to TAC where my car was parked. The agent escorted me to the head of the long line for the 5:30 Talgo to Eugene to give them the pass.

Too late to handle the logistics of flying to MKE today, I do so in the morning arriving MKE about the time #8 would have arrive there.


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## friendly45 (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi,

I found on amtrak.com a service disruption for the EB eastbound Feb 23 and 24th. That is still consequences of the recent derailments?


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## trainfan (Feb 26, 2011)

On the subject of late EB. If you arrive in Chi say at 2 or 3 AM (very late!) will you

be able to stay in Union Station to make an early morning connection?

Trainfan


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## Ispolkom (Feb 26, 2011)

ColdRain&Snow said:


> Just came into Chicago from Portland on 28/8(20). Bustitution from Havre to Minot was rough.


I'm sorry, but taking a bus from Havre to Minot in February isn't rough. It's much worse. I feel so bad for you. I would have been wailing and gnashing my teeth.

Having grown up in Minot, I can't imagine how the luggage truck got lost. The town is not that big and laid out on a grid, with numbered streets and avenues. As long as you don't expect the depot to be at the head of Main Street, where it belongs (the roundhouse was there, along with the Soo Line station), it can't be that hard.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Feb 26, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> ColdRain&Snow said:
> 
> 
> > Just came into Chicago from Portland on 28/8(20). Bustitution from Havre to Minot was rough.
> ...


I must say that, after dark, we would drive for many, many miles with not so much as a light anywhere out there on the plains. And then I would finally see some lights and think to myself, thank goodness, that must be Minot. But it would turn out to be merely a ranch house, and this probably happened ten times or more. When we finally drove down the hill and could see the long line of Superliners, there was an audible cheer in our bus. I've never been so happy to see a Superliner in my life. As for the lost U-Haul, I think the driver was from Havre though I dunno why she would have left without directions if she didn't know Minot.

It's been a wild week. I've just returned home to LA after riding 5(23), which spent most of the day yesterday up in the Donner Pass area fighting its way through a fierce snowstorm. Lots to write about in the trip report I will work on soon.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 26, 2011)

friendly45 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I found on amtrak.com a service disruption for the EB eastbound Feb 23 and 24th. That is still consequences of the recent derailments?



These trains ran. #8(24) is currently 11:06 late out of Red Wing, MN, presumably delayed by severe cold and freight congestion around the derailment near Whitefish, which still has all trains routed on a siding.

Currently #7(26), #8(25), and #8(26) are showing service disruption status. This is likely due to winds reaching 70 mph and blizzard conditions on the east slope of Marias Pass.

From the EB Yahoo Group:

"Due to the blizzard conditions between Cut Bank and Summit, expect train 8-25

(and maybe 7-25) to be delayed for an undetermined amount of time. The line is

currently impassable due to the drifting, with the wind not expected to subside

until tonight.

--Mark Meyer"

Mark


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## TraneMan (Feb 26, 2011)

Man, I feel really bad for these passenger who are on these train and the weather is holding them back. ;-(


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## rtabern (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm hoping things improve by next week. I leave a week from today (3/5) for a 10-day, 9,000-mile Amtrak trip... and the first leg is CHI-PDX on #27. Been planning this trip since last summer... :angry:


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## friendly45 (Feb 27, 2011)

I wish to ride the Hi-Line during winter because I am looking for snowed landscape. I will travel next month (two and half weeks from now). I guess that will be the case.

But I need at least a moving train to enjoy the ride... :blink:


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## yarrow (Feb 27, 2011)

weather, disabled freight disrupt amtrak


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## Pladdy (Feb 27, 2011)

Where is the equipment for train 7 & 27 that was due into Seattle today?


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## anir dendroica (Feb 27, 2011)

Info for those wanting to know...

From Amtrak:

"February 26, 2011

9:15 pm CST

As a result of high winds, blowing snow and a disabled BNSF Railway freight train blocking the tracks near Essex, Montana, Amtrak is making the following service adjustments on its Empire Builder trains originating on Saturday, February 26, 2011:

* Train 7/27 traveling from Chicago to Seattle/Portland will terminate in St. Paul.

* Trains 8/28 traveling from Seattle/Portland to Chicago are cancelled with no alternate transportation.

BNSF Railway Company has not yet provided an estimated time when the tracks will re-open.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. This information is correct as of the above time and date. Information is subject to change as conditions warrant. Passengers are encouraged to call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for schedule information and train status updates. "

From EB Yahoo Group:

"Train 8-25 went as far as Essex, then returned to Whitefish.

Train 7-25 is still holding at Havre.

Trains 7-26 and 8-26 annulled at St. Paul and Seattle respectively.

A BNSF train is still stuck in a giant snowdrift around Browning, so it being

freed and the railroad resetting will determine when the Empire Builder runs

through again.

--Mark Meyer"

From Trainorders list, user "Jaanfo"

"Figured I'd beat the inevitable "Why does 7(25) and 8(25) show a service disruption?"...

Due to severe weather and several outlawed freights stuck in the snow, train 7(25) is holding at Havre MT, and train 8(25) is holding at Whitefish MT. They are expected to hold at their locations up to 12 hours until everything is cleared.

Both Empire Builders originating on the 26th are cancelled."

From BNSF:

"02/26/2011

Extreme Winter Weather on Montana Division

BNSF service is being impacted due to a winter storm moving across the Montana Division of our network. High winds, drifting snow and sub zero temperatures have created 10-20 foot snow drifts in some areas and the weather conditions continue to deteriorate.

Customers may experience delays through this region over the next 24-48 hours and some traffic may be rerouted to alleviate train congestion. As information becomes available we will provide further communications."


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## ThayerATM (Feb 27, 2011)

rtabern said:


> I'm hoping things improve by next week. I leave a week from today (3/5) for a 10-day, 9,000-mile Amtrak trip... and the first leg is CHI-PDX on #27. Been planning this trip since last summer... :angry:


I'm even beginning to sweat our trip in September. :lol: Going west on 49 & 5, then north on 14, everything appears *"normal,"*and *normal* really has to put in quotes. Getting home on 8 and 48 has been a miserable failure this winter. :help: :angry:


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## Empire Builder Boy (Feb 28, 2011)

I hope this gets all worked out because I'm on #28 for my Chicago trip on the 17th.


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## Neil Schiller (Feb 28, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> Man, I feel really bad for these passenger who are on these train and the weather is holding them back. ;-(


We were on the 27 train that left Saturday 2/26 and terminated in St. Paul. Checked status for Sunday's train and decided to come back to Chicago. Glad we did. It looks like the weather might be like this until tomorrow, at least. Who knows how long it will take to clean up the mess.

Neil Schiller


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## EB_OBS (Feb 28, 2011)

Neil Schiller said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I feel really bad for these passenger who are on these train and the weather is holding them back. ;-(
> ...


From what I understand, BNSF still has 51 freight trains they have to get moving on the Highline. They should be letting us know this afternoon what their status is.


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## bocarat (Mar 3, 2011)

My wife and I, while on a three week rail pass, got stuck here in Sandpoint Id. While this is a great place to be "stuck" I wonder how realistic our Saturday 2:35 am departure is. With the closing (due to vandals) of the station here I really don't want to be waiting on the platform.


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## Minnestoans (Mar 6, 2011)

Is the train going yet from Whitefish? We were on the train that went back to Whitefish last Saturday. We ended up buying a car and driving back to Minnesota!


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## TraneMan (Mar 6, 2011)

Minnestoans said:


> Is the train going yet from Whitefish? We were on the train that went back to Whitefish last Saturday. We ended up buying a car and driving back to Minnesota!


Yes, the train started moving on Thursday.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 7, 2011)

Minnestoans said:


> Is the train going yet from Whitefish? We were on the train that went back to Whitefish last Saturday. We ended up buying a car and driving back to Minnesota!


_Buying a car???_

Seriously? Details, please. That's a bit of an extreme solution.


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## Bierboy (Mar 7, 2011)

7 & 8 are running just fine since last Thursday...


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## PaulM (Mar 7, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> _Buying a car???_
> 
> Seriously? Details, please. That's a bit of an extreme solution.


Our only car is 13 years old; and the only time it gets driven is on out of town trips (and then only if Amtrak doesn't go there of course :giggle: ). When it finally gives up the ghost along the road somewhere, that will be my solution.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2011)

Well, after several relatively trouble-free days, we're back to a service disruption for 7/8. Yesterday's 8 left SEA about 3 hours late, probably due to a late arrival of 7...but was holding its own until dropping off the map near Glacier Park. Yesterday's 7, meanwhile, was doing fairly well until disappearing after Wolf Point. What gives? (I notice today's 7 has left CHI on-time...but how far will it get?)


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## EB_OBS (Mar 9, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> Well, after several relatively trouble-free days, we're back to a service disruption for 7/8. Yesterday's 8 left SEA about 3 hours late, probably due to a late arrival of 7...but was holding its own until dropping off the map near Glacier Park. Yesterday's 7, meanwhile, was doing fairly well until disappearing after Wolf Point. What gives? (I notice today's 7 has left CHI on-time...but how far will it get?)



An avalanche derailed a BNSF freight train near Essex, MT. It took out 19 freight cars. Bustitution today between Havre and Whitefish and flipping the train equipment and OBS crews back.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> An avalanche derailed a BNSF freight train near Essex, MT. It took out 19 freight cars. Bustitution today between Havre and Whitefish and flipping the train equipment and OBS crews back.


Wow, thanks for the update. I have two relatives due to board #7 tomorrow morning in GFK. Do you know if the bustitution is still on for tomorrow, too?


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## tim49424 (Mar 9, 2011)

Not sure about #7 out west, but I just got a call from an Amtrak ticket agent in Milwaukee regarding the derailment and they are providing an express shuttle from Tomah to Milwaukee, and then having us take the Hiawatha from Milwaukee to Chicago. This is different than my previous two experiences with bustitiutions out of Tomah, as they provided a charter bus in the past and stopped at all the station stops from Tomah to Columbus and headed SE into Chicago.


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## EB_OBS (Mar 9, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > An avalanche derailed a BNSF freight train near Essex, MT. It took out 19 freight cars. Bustitution today between Havre and Whitefish and flipping the train equipment and OBS crews back.
> ...



Haven't heard yet. Train 8 and 7 will depart on-time today though, so we'll see.


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## anir dendroica (Mar 9, 2011)

From BNSF:

Carload train H-NTWPAS9-25 derailed near Pinnacle, Montana at 1230 on Wednesday, March 9, 2011. This location is approximately 45 miles east of Whitefish.

BNSF personnel are on the scene assessing the situation and working to determine the impact associated with the derailment. There is currently no estimated time for the reopening of the main track. We will provide updates to this advisory as information becomes available.

BNSF may re route some traffic in order to minimize impact to service. Customers may experience additional delays of 24-48 hours on shipments moving through this corridor.

#8(8) departed West Glacier at 11:22 am, which would have put it pretty close to the derailment location at 12:30.

News article here:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/03/09/1577418/freight-train-derails-near-montanas.html


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## Bierboy (Mar 9, 2011)

We got in on the #7 today in Seattle a half hour *EARLY*, so we missed this by one day. We passed Essex last evening. We're due to come back on the #8 leaving Saturday, so we'll see how that goes....


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## TraneMan (Mar 9, 2011)

Bierboy said:


> We're due to come back on the #8 leaving Saturday, so we'll see how that goes....


Looks like 8 is up and running now.


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## Bierboy (Mar 9, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> > We're due to come back on the #8 leaving Saturday, so we'll see how that goes....
> ...


Yep, status maps indicate both 7 & 8 left on schedule. I would suspect either BNSF told them the tracks would be OK by the time they respectively arrive there, or Amtrak is prepared to bus passengers again between Whitefish and Havre...


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

Well now both 7 & 8 from yesterday are listed as Service Disruptions. 7 terminated at MSP and 8 at Wanatchee, WA. Anyone have an update on the derailment east of Glacier and the status of resumption? What's Amtrak doing with the passengers on both trains?


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## EB_OBS (Mar 10, 2011)

Train 8(8) flipped at Whitefish. Passengers were bussed to Havre. Train 7(8) turned around at Havre. The plan at this moment is for the same operation for 8(9) and 7(9). BNSF said 36 hours to cleanup so hopefully the departures on the 10th will get through.


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Train 8(8) flipped at Whitefish. Passengers were bussed to Havre. Train 7(8) turned around at Havre. The plan at this moment is for the same operation for 8(9) and 7(9). BNSF said 36 hours to cleanup so hopefully the departures on the 10th will get through.


So these were the trains that left yesterday, correct? Because I know that's what they did with the trains that left Tuesday. We're scheduled to come back from Seattle to Chicago leaving Saturday, so obviously we're keeping a close eye on this situation. Thanks.


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## henryj (Mar 10, 2011)

The Builder has been suspended off and on all winter. Time to send the equipment down south where it can do some good. Add it to the SWC, the Eagle and the Sunset Limited. Turn the Builder into a coach only day train between MSP and Chicago and Portland and Seattle to Spokane. Forget the rest of the route until summer.


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

Here's an updated article on the derailment causing this latest disruption...


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## anir dendroica (Mar 10, 2011)

henryj said:


> The Builder has been suspended off and on all winter. Time to send the equipment down south where it can do some good. Add it to the SWC, the Eagle and the Sunset Limited. Turn the Builder into a coach only day train between MSP and Chicago and Portland and Seattle to Spokane. Forget the rest of the route until summer.


As one who rides the Builder every winter, I have to voice an objection. In an average winter the EB might be suspended for 3-5 days total, and on many days it provides the only safe and reliable transportation option across the northern plains. This year has definitely been worse than most, both in terms of weather and other bad luck. I'm sure some folks at BNSF are wondering why their trains keep jumping the tracks - four ND/MT mainline derailments in a month has to be taking a chunk out of the bottom line.

Latest from BNSF:

"As mentioned in a Service Advisory issued on March 9, 2011, BNSF reported that carload train H-NTWPAS9-25 derailed near Pinnacle, Montana. The current estimate for the main line to return to service is 10:00 a.m. CST on March 11, 2011."

That should be in time for tomorrow's #7/#8 (i.e. today's departures) to get through, but I suspect BNSF has >25 freights waiting on either side so I wouldn't be surprised if the bus bridge persists an extra day.

Mark


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## michael moffitt (Mar 10, 2011)

BNSF updated things today--it was NOT an avalanche, but a straight derailment just outside of Essex, saw the images, looks pretty grim. BNSF says they hope to have the track back in service by midday on 3-11, but not sure they can make that schedule. This winter has seen more derailments on this section of BNSF's service area than anyone in NW MT can recall. BTW--The weather yesterday was not a factor--party sunny, no wind, no precipitation.


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

michael moffitt said:


> BNSF updated things today--it was NOT an avalanche, but a straight derailment just outside of Essex, saw the images, looks pretty grim. BNSF says they hope to have the track back in service by midday on 3-11, but not sure they can make that schedule. This winter has seen more derailments on this section of BNSF's service area than anyone in NW MT can recall. BTW--The weather yesterday was not a factor--party sunny, no wind, no precipitation.


The revised estimate for returning to service is "early tomorrow morning".


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## fairviewroad (Mar 10, 2011)

As usual this board contains far more info than what's available on the Amtrak website. I called the 800 number this

morning to find the status of train 7(9) as my relatives were due to board in GFK this morning. I wanted to see if the

bustitution was still in effect. It took 25 minutes to get an agent...meanwhile I had long since found my answer thanks

to this thread. The only thing the agent told me that I hadn't already found out here was that #7 left GFK about 48 minutes

late this morning (AKA "on time" by GFK standards). So I assume the bustitution won't throw things too far out of whack. But

the agent wouldn't hazard a guess regarding arrival into SEA. So they'll get there when they do, I s'pose. Oh well, that's what

cell phones are for.

I know it's been stated many times here...but it sure would be nice if Amtrak actually communicated with customers about

irregularities rather than putting "SERVICE DISRUPTION" on its website. How hard would it be to, you know, write up a sentence

or two about what's going on and slap it on the ole' website, rather than forcing people to wait on hold to find basic info. :angry:


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## EB_OBS (Mar 10, 2011)

Well, more BAD news. BNSF just reported a 5ft deep x 30 ft wide mudslide at the Broadway tunnel in Everett, WA. Still trying to figure out what to do about today's #8(10. With the equipment on the wrong side of the slide there's no way to bus around it.


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## jmbgeg (Mar 10, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Well, more BAD news. BNSF just reported a 5ft deep x 30 ft wide mudslide at the Broadway tunnel in Everett, WA. Still trying to figure out what to do about today's #8(10. With the equipment on the wrong side of the slide there's no way to bus around it.


Maybe they need to originate 8 and terminate 7 in Everett (and bus the 30 minutes to and from Seattle)until all these mudslides stop. How many so far this winter? Casinos have better odds for a bettor than EB OTP this winter.


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> ...Maybe they need to originate 8 and terminate 7 in Everett (and bus the 30 minutes to and from Seattle)until all these mudslides stop. How many so far this winter? Casinos have better odds for a bettor than EB OTP this winter.


But if #8 is on THIS side (SEA, where I am right now) it wouldn't do any good to bus passengers to Everett since there's no equipment to take them anywhere...(at least initially....maybe down the road they could).


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## EB_OBS (Mar 10, 2011)

Well BNSF says we should be able to get the train thru the mudslide. It may be cleaned up enough by 10pm.


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Well BNSF says we should be able to get the train thru the mudslide. It may be cleaned up enough by 10pm.


Thanks for the info, Jason. We're sitting here in a hotel in Seattle wondering if we'll make it back to Illinois


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## Bierboy (Mar 10, 2011)

Status map now indicates yesterday's #7 is now out of Shelby running an hour and a quarter late. That means Amtrak is now running the WB EB past Havre? ...expecting to get through the derailment area just west of Essex?


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 11, 2011)

I got a question. I'm taking the #28 from WIN to CHI on Thursday. And I've never had a service disruption before, but what happens if I do... Will they bus me to MKE and switch me on the Hiawatha or will I have to no way to get to CHI until the train situation gets settled?


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## EB_OBS (Mar 11, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I got a question. I'm taking the #28 from WIN to CHI on Thursday. And I've never had a service disruption before, but what happens if I do... Will they bus me to MKE and switch me on the Hiawatha or will I have to no way to get to CHI until the train situation gets settled?



If the train is very, very late, or canceled, then there is usually alternate transportation provided, i.e. a bus or possibly a stub train runs CHI-MSP-CHI.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 11, 2011)

Will amtrak call me to inform me of this or do I need to call them day of?


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## EB_OBS (Mar 11, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Will amtrak call me to inform me of this or do I need to call them day of?



Well generally, Amtrak does try to notify passengers of service disruptions. I don't know how successful they are though at notifying 100%.


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## EB_OBS (Mar 11, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Will amtrak call me to inform me of this or do I need to call them day of?



You could call Julie at 1800USARAIL or call the station directly. Julie's automated system is not often very helpful when there is a service disruption, so use the option to speak with an agent.


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## TraneMan (Mar 11, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I got a question. I'm taking the #28 from WIN to CHI on Thursday. And I've never had a service disruption before, but what happens if I do... Will they bus me to MKE and switch me on the Hiawatha or will I have to no way to get to CHI until the train situation gets settled?


I was to go down 3 years ago, and they called me when the service was disrupted. I asked if there was a bus, and she said I had to go up to Mpls. I said I didn't want to do that, so I got all of my money back.

I think all will be fine by next Thursday.

Take it this your first time?


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## EB_OBS (Mar 12, 2011)

Train #8(10) is currently almost 10 hours late. There will be on-time buses MSP - CHI.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 12, 2011)

I've been on the Empire Builder atleast 10 trips. Just never had a service disruption before and hoping it won't be the case. And if I have to go to MSP than I have to cancel my trip.


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## Bierboy (Mar 12, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Train #8(10) is currently almost 10 hours late. There will be on-time buses MSP - CHI.


How can they be "on-time" buses if the train is nearly 10 hours late? There's no way they can make that time up driving straight through to Chicago, is there?


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## EB_OBS (Mar 12, 2011)

Bierboy said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > Train #8(10) is currently almost 10 hours late. There will be on-time buses MSP - CHI.
> ...



For passengers boarding at MSP and beyond, a few buses depart MSP at the regularly scheduled departure time. Usually, depending upon passenger counts, there will be one or two express buses that go straight to CHI and there would be a bus that will make all the usual stops.

The passengers on the train don't make up any time but passengers boarding at MSP or beyond have the option of taking the on-time bus or waiting for the very late train.


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## Bierboy (Mar 12, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> > EB_OBS said:
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. Reason I ask is that I board the #8 today in Seattle. I'm supposed to make a connection in Chicago to the Illinois Zephyr, but only have a 2-hour window to catch it. No way I'll catch the IZ if my #8 runs as late as this one does...


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## Bierboy (Mar 12, 2011)

Looks like #7 got hit by the blizzard in ND overnight; it's now listed as a service disruption. ND state troopers rescued 800 motorists in whiteout conditions.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 12, 2011)

I better start planning my cancellations now...


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## TraneMan (Mar 12, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I better start planning my cancellations now...


I wouldn't worry about it just yet.. Next week suppose to be nice most of the midwest.


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## henryj (Mar 12, 2011)

Like I said before. Give up on the EB and send that equipment south for use on the Sunset Limited, the Eagle and the SWC. Just run a coach train between MSP and Chi for the rest of winter. What a waste and they stole some of that from the Sunset years ago so that now we have just a skeleton of a train running three times a week. Better yet, make the EB three times a week and make the Sunset daily.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 12, 2011)

henryj said:


> Like I said before. Give up on the EB and send that equipment south for use on the Sunset Limited, the Eagle and the SWC. Just run a coach train between MSP and Chi for the rest of winter. What a waste and they stole some of that from the Sunset years ago so that now we have just a skeleton of a train running three times a week. Better yet, make the EB three times a week and make the Sunset daily.


Nah, cancel the Sunset Limited and bring back the North Coast Hiawatha. Then there would be an alternate route between the Pacific Northwest and Chicago when the Hi Line is snowed in. You have to have priorities, after all.


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## henryj (Mar 13, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said before. Give up on the EB and send that equipment south for use on the Sunset Limited, the Eagle and the SWC. Just run a coach train between MSP and Chi for the rest of winter. What a waste and they stole some of that from the Sunset years ago so that now we have just a skeleton of a train running three times a week. Better yet, make the EB three times a week and make the Sunset daily.
> ...


The Sunset Limited is sold out for the next week to 10 days due to spring break. How is the EB doing?


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## GG-1 (Mar 13, 2011)

Aloha

I have an Idea! Cancel the Empire Builder during winter and run the Sunset Limited Daily coast to coast. During Hurricane season Cancel the Sunset Limited and run the Empire Builder coast to coast.

Hey, I did not say it was a good Idea. :help: :lol: :help: :lol:


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 13, 2011)

henryj said:


> Like I said before. Give up on the EB and send that equipment south for use on the Sunset Limited, the Eagle and the SWC. Just run a coach train between MSP and Chi for the rest of winter. What a waste and they stole some of that from the Sunset years ago so that now we have just a skeleton of a train running three times a week. Better yet, make the EB three times a week and make the Sunset daily.


Just get that bazillion dollars ready for UP's daily demands.


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## henryj (Mar 13, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> I have an Idea! Cancel the Empire Builder during winter and run the Sunset Limited Daily coast to coast. During Hurricane season Cancel the Sunset Limited and run the Empire Builder coast to coast.
> 
> Hey, I did not say it was a good Idea. :help: :lol: :help: :lol:


LOL, great idea GG-1.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 13, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> Just get that bazillion dollars ready for UP's daily demands.


My thought exactly. BNSF at least tolerates Amtrak.


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## Ryan (Mar 13, 2011)

henryj said:


> The Builder has been suspended off and on all winter. Time to send the equipment down south where it can do some good. Add it to the SWC, the Eagle and the Sunset Limited. Turn the Builder into a coach only day train between MSP and Chicago and Portland and Seattle to Spokane. Forget the rest of the route until summer.


Yep, Amtrak should just abandon an entire route and strand thousands of people that have bought tickets because of a handful of disruptions.


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## Meg (Mar 14, 2011)

Empire Builder out of Portland, OR was cancelled for today 3/13/2011. Passengers were being put on buses, but we opted to take tomorrow's train. Anyone have any idea if it will get through to Chicago? I overhead an employee say that the train had hit a car - any news?


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## anir dendroica (Mar 14, 2011)

The inbound Empire Builder (#27) just departed Wishram, WA at 9:50 this morning and should arrive in Portland about 2 hours late. That train will turn and become your departing #28 this afternoon, so I expect you will depart on time or nearly so. There are currently no blockages on the tracks between Portland and Chicago, so you should get through.

Yesterday's train encountered some sort of severe delay in North Dakota (probably blizzard-related) as westbound #7 and was presumably turned at Spokane (with passengers bussed to/from PDX and SEA). That is, unfortunately, a fairly regular occurrence since when the westbound #7/27 is over eight hours late it will not arrive in PDX/SEA in time to depart as #8/28. Rather than make the entire eastbound journey terribly late, the train is turned in Spokane.

Mark


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## Meg (Mar 14, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> The inbound Empire Builder (#27) just departed Wishram, WA at 9:50 this morning and should arrive in Portland about 2 hours late. That train will turn and become your departing #28 this afternoon, so I expect you will depart on time or nearly so. There are currently no blockages on the tracks between Portland and Chicago, so you should get through.
> 
> Yesterday's train encountered some sort of severe delay in North Dakota (probably blizzard-related) as westbound #7 and was presumably turned at Spokane (with passengers bussed to/from PDX and SEA). That is, unfortunately, a fairly regular occurrence since when the westbound #7/27 is over eight hours late it will not arrive in PDX/SEA in time to depart as #8/28. Rather than make the entire eastbound journey terribly late, the train is turned in Spokane.
> 
> Mark


Thank you SO much for the clear information. I so wish that Amtrak would post such things on their website, so that we could all understand what's happening. I (and I think most passengers) are very understanding of delays as long as we are given the information updates. It would be great if Amtrak could send text message updates about departure times and delays like the airlines do. You would just sign up for it online, and then it would be generated automatically.

We drove from Astoria yesterday leaving at 1pm. If we had known that the train had been turned (which it seems they knew by then), we would have been saved a two-hour drive and an overnight hotel stay in Portland.

The scene at the Amtrak counter at the train station is absurd. Everyone has to wait in line to get essentially the same information. We LOVE travelling by train, and wouldn't do it any other way, but just a little more info would help the customer service aspect so much.

Thanks again.

Meg


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## anir dendroica (Mar 14, 2011)

Meg said:


> Thank you SO much for the clear information. I so wish that Amtrak would post such things on their website, so that we could all understand what's happening. I (and I think most passengers) are very understanding of delays as long as we are given the information updates. It would be great if Amtrak could send text message updates about departure times and delays like the airlines do. You would just sign up for it online, and then it would be generated automatically.
> 
> We drove from Astoria yesterday leaving at 1pm. If we had known that the train had been turned (which it seems they knew by then), we would have been saved a two-hour drive and an overnight hotel stay in Portland.
> 
> ...


I have been perennially annoyed with Amtrak's lack of information. Fortunately, it is possible to obtain at least some useful information about the Empire Builder anyway.

*The best resource is John Bobinyec's Amtrak Status Maps:

http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/Amtrak/status/StatusMaps/AmtrakStatusMapWest.htm

The only downside is that when a train is disrupted for even a small portion of its route, it becomes a "service disruption" and no longer appears on the map. In most cases, the train is still running over at least part of the route, or is using a bus bridge like yesterday. Today's #8 will likely appear as a disruption due to mudslides north of Seattle forcing a short bus bridge (not affecting the Portland section).

*User "EB_OBS" on this forum apparently has access to inside information and often posts updates. That is the closest we get to obtaining accurate info from Amtrak.

*There is an Empire Builder Yahoo Group, which often has useful information (mixed in with plenty of not-useful information).

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/EmpireBuilder/

*The Trainorders list is occasionally helpful, although many disruptions go unreported there:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/list.php?4

*If problems are weather- or derailment-related, you can check the BNSF Service Advisories page:

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates?ReadForm&service

Frequently, however, freight service will resume before passenger service, especially following mudslides.

Mark


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## AlanB (Mar 14, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> *User "EB_OBS" on this forum apparently has access to inside information and often posts updates. That is the closest we get to obtaining accurate info from Amtrak.


He works the EB as a supervisor, so he tends to know what's going on with the EB.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 15, 2011)

Does anyone know if the EB will be running from WIN-CHI thursday?


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## TraneMan (Mar 15, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Does anyone know if the EB will be running from WIN-CHI thursday?


Checking out the Amtrak's status page, it shows 28 is running. 8 is not. I'd say yes.. But Call Amtrak directly, and find out for sure.


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## Ryan (Mar 15, 2011)

Meg said:


> We drove from Astoria yesterday leaving at 1pm. If we had known that the train had been turned (which it seems they knew by then), we would have been saved a two-hour drive and an overnight hotel stay in Portland.


You live in Astoria? My wife and I spent our honeymoon there about a year ago - beautiful town and some of the best dining we've ever had!


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 15, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> Empire Builder Boy said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know if the EB will be running from WIN-CHI thursday?
> ...


Thankfully for me, I have a ticket for the #28 car.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 15, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Thankfully for me, I have a ticket for the #28 car.


That is irrelevant in this case. East of Spokane, the #8 and the #28 are the same train. Either they're both running

or they're both not running. (Or, in some cases, they're not running but Amtrak has a stub train or bustitution between

MSP and CHI...in which case it's still irrelevant which "train" you are ticketed on.)

The reason #28 shows up is that there is no service disruption between Portland and Chicago. The reason the #8

does not show up on the Amtrak website is that there was a service disruption between Seattle and Chicago. Never

mind that this disruption is just a few miles north of Seattle and that virtually the entire route is unaffected...it's just

that Amtrak is incapable of programming its website to show that the train is operating "normally" except for a very

short bus bridge near the beginning of the route.

P.S. It occurs to me that your comment may have been in jest...apologies if that's the case.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 15, 2011)

Not in jest. I actually didn't know how that worked.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 15, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Not in jest. I actually didn't know how that worked.


Cool. Good luck with your trip. As it happens, I have relatives leaving on the #28 out of PDX today, which will eventually be

the train you'll board. But they'll be long gone by the time the train reaches WIN.


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## Meg (Mar 15, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Meg said:
> 
> 
> > We drove from Astoria yesterday leaving at 1pm. If we had known that the train had been turned (which it seems they knew by then), we would have been saved a two-hour drive and an overnight hotel stay in Portland.
> ...


Yes, I do live in Astoria! It's a great town, if a little too rainy at this time of year...

I wonder where you ate, because sadly, Gunderson's Cannery Cafe (where my husband and I got married and had our reception) burned down on December 16th, 2010. It's really, really sad because it was the best and prettiest restaurant in town. There are others, for sure, but there is a big hole now in our hearts (and bellies!) where their salmon used to be!

All the best,

Meg

p.s. The train used to run here, and there are still tracks and a station. If only people would make it a priority, we could have rail service again. They got it running for the Lewis and Clark celebration a few years back, but then didn't have the money to keep it going


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## EB_OBS (Mar 15, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> Does anyone know if the EB will be running from WIN-CHI thursday?


That train will depart Seattle and Portland today. Aside from the bustitution between Seattle and Everett, WA there aren't any other blocking events that I'm aware of. The chances of it being a little late are fairly good. IF the train gets really late, like six or eight hours or more late, then the District Manager Stations, in that area, is really good about arranging for buses to depart MSP and further east stations, on-time. Either call the station or Amtrak customer service if you see that the train is running very late. Or shoot me a PM. When he schedules on-time buses I'm always included in the distribution.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 17, 2011)

How is the WIN-CHI train looking today?


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## Ryan (Mar 17, 2011)

Meg said:


> I wonder where you ate, because sadly, Gunderson's Cannery Cafe (where my husband and I got married and had our reception) burned down on December 16th, 2010. It's really, really sad because it was the best and prettiest restaurant in town. There are others, for sure, but there is a big hole now in our hearts (and bellies!) where their salmon used to be!


That is a shame, that was dinner out last night there. We stayed at the Cannery Pier Hotel and got driven down there in one of their classic cars and then walked back along the riverwalk to the hotel right at sunset. An absolutely perfect evening! We also ate at Fulio's and Clemente's and enjoyed them, but they couldn't match the view from Gunderson's!
(sorry to all for the thread diversion)


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## TraneMan (Mar 17, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> How is the WIN-CHI train looking today?


As of now as per Amtrak's Status page, it's 2 hours, and 55 min late.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 17, 2011)

But how accurate is it really?I called the train station and no answer.


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## TraneMan (Mar 17, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> But how accurate is it really?I called the train station and no answer.


Looking at the map and Amtrak's status map, i'd say it's accurate. Call Julie and find out for sure.


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## Empire Builder Boy (Mar 17, 2011)

I got a phone call by Julie. She called me at 10:19 am central saying my train was cancelled and my bus took off at 10:11 am. I was thoroughly scared. I called the Winona station and they told me it was a technicality call, but the train is running and at the estimated time was correct on the website. So I don't care. It's running and I'm all packed and ready to rock!


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## fairviewroad (Mar 17, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I got a phone call by Julie. She called me at 10:19 am central saying my train was cancelled and my bus took off at 10:11 am. I was thoroughly scared. I called the Winona station and they told me it was a technicality call, but the train is running and at the estimated time was correct on the website. So I don't care. It's running and I'm all packed and ready to rock!


I guess "technicality" is Amtrak-speak for "wrong."

Looks like you'll be leaving about 3 1/2 hours late.


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## TraneMan (Mar 17, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I got a phone call by Julie. She called me at 10:19 am central saying my train was cancelled and my bus took off at 10:11 am. I was thoroughly scared. I called the Winona station and they told me it was a technicality call, but the train is running and at the estimated time was correct on the website. So I don't care. It's running and I'm all packed and ready to rock!


Enjoy your trip!


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## cav1865 (Mar 20, 2011)

20 March 2011, BNSF grain train derailed near Leonia, ID, 130 miles west of Whitefish, MT. Main track out of service. Unknown repair estimate. Amtrak uses this line. Unknown Amtrak status now.


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## cav1865 (Mar 21, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> 20 March 2011, BNSF grain train derailed near Leonia, ID, 130 miles west of Whitefish, MT. Main track out of service. Unknown repair estimate. Amtrak uses this line. Unknown Amtrak status now.


BNSF reports it will restore one main line 22 March in the morning.


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## megan (Mar 22, 2011)

I was considering taking the Empire Builder from MSP to Glenview, IL next weekend, but am concerned that it's going to be running VERY late. I can handle an hour or so, but more than that is tough.

In the last three days it's been 7+ hours late, 1 hour 25 minutes late and 12 minutes late. Any pattern I should know about?


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## fairviewroad (Mar 22, 2011)

megan said:


> I was considering taking the Empire Builder from MSP to Glenview, IL next weekend, but am concerned that it's going to be running VERY late. I can handle an hour or so, but more than that is tough.
> 
> In the last three days it's been 7+ hours late, 1 hour 25 minutes late and 12 minutes late. Any pattern I should know about?


Keep in mind that in the event of severe lateness Amtrak will often charter busses to take passengers from MSP to CHI and points between. Most of the lateness

you are seeing happens well west of MSP, so Amtrak has plenty of advance warning that the MSP-CHI segment will be severely delayed. There's been some

discussion on this board as to what constitutes a late enough train to warrant a "bustitution" but it would seem to be at least 4 hours.

Obviously a bus ride pales in comparison to a train in terms of comfort. But it means that you're unlikely to arrive 4+ hours late. But there's

no guarantee.


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## TraneMan (Mar 24, 2011)

Empire Builder Boy said:


> I got a phone call by Julie. She called me at 10:19 am central saying my train was cancelled and my bus took off at 10:11 am. I was thoroughly scared. I called the Winona station and they told me it was a technicality call, but the train is running and at the estimated time was correct on the website. So I don't care. It's running and I'm all packed and ready to rock!


Wanted to hear an update, how did your trip go?


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## cav1865 (Mar 28, 2011)

Empire Builder rides mostly Burlington-Northern-Santa Fe (BNSF) lines. Flooding will be a major concern this spring along much of the route. BNSF started an updated weather interruptions web site at: http://www.bnsf.com/customers/weather-interruptions.


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## anir dendroica (Mar 28, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> Empire Builder rides mostly Burlington-Northern-Santa Fe (BNSF) lines. Flooding will be a major concern this spring along much of the route. BNSF started an updated weather interruptions web site at: http://www.bnsf.com/customers/weather-interruptions.


Clickable link:

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/weather-interruptions/


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## JoAnn (Apr 1, 2011)

I'll be taking Empire Builder 8/28 to St. Paul soon. Can someone tell me why they have been so late coming into St. Paul. Today it's running over 4 hours late, the other day about 6 hours late and last Friday 11 hours late. I love taking the train but this trip might put an end to it. Thanks, JoAnn


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## cav1865 (Apr 1, 2011)

JoAnn said:


> I'll be taking Empire Builder 8/28 to St. Paul soon. Can someone tell me why they have been so late coming into St. Paul. Today it's running over 4 hours late, the other day about 6 hours late and last Friday 11 hours late. I love taking the train but this trip might put an end to it. Thanks, JoAnn


I live in Montana. My wife and I are taking Empire Builder (EB) from Malta, Montana to Chicago in May and then Capitol Limited to Wash D.C. We have a 2 hr and 40 minute window in Chicago from the time EB is supposed to arrive and the Capitol Limited is supposed to depart. I too, am very worried about EB getting to Chicago on time. EB is a hard-luck line because many things have to work for it to be on time in Minneapolis and into Chicago. EB eastbound (train 28) mates in Spokane with one train coming from Portland, the other from Seattle. If either one is late, then EB is late leaving Spokane. EB does not get any speed east of Spokane until it gets through Glacier Nat'l Park, MT. Once it gets to about Shelby, MT, then it can get up to speed. When I was on it last year it got up to 83 mph as measured by my GPS. Eastern Montana received an almost record amount of snow this season: 11 feet in some places. Drifting is STILL a problem in eastern Montana. Trains slow down; they can't barge through the drifts. Flooding near Devil's Lake, ND is a major concern. Don't know how high the water is, but AMTRAK is concerned about the bridge at Devil's Lake. EB is a tough line to be on-time. For the last month, it averaged a 3-hour delay getting to Minneapolis. With a bit of luck and snow melt (no flooding in Devil's Lake?), the delay will improve. Finger's crossed!


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## cav1865 (Apr 1, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> JoAnn said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be taking Empire Builder 8/28 to St. Paul soon. Can someone tell me why they have been so late coming into St. Paul. Today it's running over 4 hours late, the other day about 6 hours late and last Friday 11 hours late. I love taking the train but this trip might put an end to it. Thanks, JoAnn
> ...


I failed to add; when we were on EB east of Shelby, MT last year, some bone-head in a pickup truck, raced the EB to a dirt road crossing in the middle of no-where and the train engineer threw on the air and EB came to an emergency stop. (The pickup shot through the intersection and vanished.) In an "emergency stop" situation, the train conductor has to dismount the stopped train and inspect the wheels and axles for "hot boxes" or overheated wheels and bearings. All of this took about 30 minutes. So, another delay on the EB because of a bone-head.


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## the green hopper (Apr 1, 2011)

My husband and i rode the Eb in march from Winona mn to Chicago.

First time train riders riding for fun not transportation.

just as we were leaving to go to the station Julie amtrak automated employee called to say the Eb was six hours late.

i was shocked i normally fly anyway we missed the Kid Rock concert we were going to see Amtrak refused to reimburse us

Long Story short I loved Riding the rails the employees on the train were great i am going to do it again soon but i have watched the train go by about 2 to 6 hours late (i live on the route line MN River Girl) Trains are America sad to see such an Icon in such rough shape

Cant wait to go again but not going to buy concert tickets for the same day

Hi to all the employees that work the empire builder and thanks for the Hat


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## cav1865 (Apr 2, 2011)

EB (eastbound train 28) rolled into Malta, MT this afternoon 5 minutes EARLY! Go EB!


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## cav1865 (Apr 3, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> EB (eastbound train 28) rolled into Malta, MT this afternoon 5 minutes EARLY! Go EB!


EB eastbound (train 28) was right on time through Montana this run (1,2, 3 April) until North Dakota. It slowed near Rugby, ND and Devil's Lake, ND, probably due to high water in Devil's Lake proper. EB just rolled into Minneapolis 52 minutes late.


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## cav1865 (Apr 11, 2011)

Amtrak (Empire Builder) busing passengers between Minot and Fargo due to high water.


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## ACVitale (Apr 11, 2011)

Any ideas on how long or permanent the BUSTITUTION will be. Have been considering the EB for a trip late this month. Concerned over the flooding, melting snow, Devils lake issues?

This has been a good thread to follow but, seems like things are getting bleaker.


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## cav1865 (Apr 11, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> Amtrak (Empire Builder) busing passengers between Minot and Fargo due to high water.


I checked North Dakota Dept of Transportation web site, they report numerous flooding conditions (water on roadways) between Minot and Fargo. Good bet this is why Amtrak is busing passengers.


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## JoAnn (Apr 13, 2011)

Left Minneapolis on Thursday night (April 7) for Whitefish. Train was 26 1/2 hours late--yup I got to spend 26 1/2 hours on the train. Needless to say I wasn't a happy camper(rider). Sat next to a retired railroad guy and he said the Amtrak officials made lots of bad decisions regarding this train. Bright side Customer Service were wonderul. I still don't think the Empire Builder is running. JoAnn


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## cav1865 (Apr 15, 2011)

Empire Builder westbound (train 27) departed Glenview, IL on time today at 2:39 CDT. Let's hope EB goes all the way to Seattle / Portland. Fingers crossed!


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## JoAnn (Apr 15, 2011)

Left Minneapolis Thursday, the 7th going to Whitefish--train was 26 l/2 hours late--all time spent on the train. Every decision the higher ups made was questionable. The guy across the aisle is a retired train guy who gets to ride for free and he said he doesn't know if he'll ride the train again. Only good part of the this whole ordeal was the wonderful response from Customer Serivice.


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## Ryan (Apr 15, 2011)

JoAnn said:


> Every decision the higher ups made was questionable.


I'm sure that those higher ups had more information and better qualifications to make those decisions.


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## JoAnn (Apr 15, 2011)

Sorry for the double post--my lack of sleep made me miss page 8. On the decisions made- first they were going to bus us around the flooding ok I could deal with that--backing up from 21 miles east of Minot back to Fargo not so sure. Being told we be back in Minot at 1:30 A.m to find the train sitting in the middle of nowhere at 7:00 A.M. and being told we had been there for 5 hours not so sure. New conducter comes on board and he had no idea that we were getting a complimentary lunch and dinner--lunch in the dining car by coach cars (he never heard of such a thing. Mind you I love the train but as I said before the retired train guy said he couldn't figure out what was going on. And again the wonderful service I got from the woman in Customer Service will allow me to go on the train again.


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## hello (Apr 15, 2011)

_The EB left SEA as scheduled today ... my fingers are also crossed that it makes it all the way through to CHI without any problems!!_


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## cav1865 (Apr 16, 2011)

hello said:


> _The EB left SEA as scheduled today ... my fingers are also crossed that it makes it all the way through to CHI without any problems!!_


Eastbound Empire Builder (train 28)in Libby, MT this morning: only 11 minutes late!


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