# Totally random.... but fun trip



## Shotgun7 (Jan 11, 2008)

Just to let everybody know..... this is my first "trip report".... so I appreciate any tips

I also forgot to record car numbers 'n such.

A few days before the weekend of the 15th of December, I sort of felt like getting out of town and the people I know for a while... So what better to do than to take a train somewhere?! I called up Amtrak and made a 40 dollar reservation for the 15th (Saturday). I would take the 820 Silver Meteor from Deerfield Beach to Winter Haven, have lunch with a friend I hadn't seen in a while, and catch the 1:40 or so Silver Star back South.

The northbound Meteor pulled in right on time at 820 with its usual consist (2 P-42's, 1 baggage, 3 Viewliners, 1 Diner, 1 Cafe, and 4 Amfleets)... with an extra Viewliner on the end I'd guess they were deadheading up north. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the papers Amtrak conductors use to assign people seats don't seem to be very useful..... as even with an only half-full train, everybody assigned seats had their seats taken... somehow "sit wherever you see a spot" (at least for short distances) would seem a tad bit more sensible. But anyway.... I only sat for about five minutes before getting impatient (in an unusually huge, comfy coach seat) and checking out breakfast in the old diner. I've gotta say, Amtrak must have refurbished their heritage diners since the last time I rode a single level train because it was the most spectacular Amtrak diner I've ever seen!! I'll post pictures in about two days about what I'm talking about. The northbound diner looked like a five star restaurant in Chicago or something, with real tablecloths and 40's style decor n such likat. The one going south on the Silver Star was the really amazing one though. It was like a fancy art deco miami railroad theme... except less tacky. I gotta admit, I was really amazed. This was about a week after Amtrak upgraded their standard menus, so the French toast tasted unusually good... and for seven bucks and free juice I was darn well satisfied! (I'm 15... obviously I cherish an opportunity for what seems like a good deal). I hung out in the cafe car for the remaining 3 hours, meeting people going anywhere from Jacksonville to Connecticut. Cafe cars going both directions were the old brown and orange ones, but I noticed that they've still got a decent "lounge" setup and hardly any people take advantage of the extra room and social atmosphere.

Heading South on the Silver Star was just as much of an experience. Again though, I my assigned seat was a tad bit taken... but I didn't really care as I didn't sit in coach the whole time anyway. I began my southbound trip just as I did heading north. I headed to the this time even more amazing (and rather empty) dining car where I ate the new grilled chicken and huge, overflowing salad for about 8 bucks or something. Again, I don't care how much people complain about cafe prices, that particular lunch was truely worth my 8 dollars. The dining staff was again, unusually friendly. They were sort of the only ones to talk to since nobody else was really eating. I spent most of my remaining time in the cafe car again, listening to the cafe SA (a real funny BIG ol' girl) set a few people straight. And I'll say now that Amtrak employees who work with customers have to put up with a whole lot more than most of us will know and so most comments that people make towards them are usually without good reasoning. I regard almost all Amtrak employees with a whole lot of respect and made sure I tipped every one I met (and again, I'm 15.... so that's not easy for me). CSX trains really do hold up Amtrak though.... we waited for about 20-30 minutes twice for passing CSX autoracks around Okeechobee and Sebring. The condition of the inside of the train seemed to defy what most people claim Amtrak is like (mostly reports from a few years ago when unrefurbished Phase IV equipment was still widespread). All the Amfleets (except 1) were completely clean and refurbished with decently clear windows. I used/checked the bathrooms in two refurbished amfleets and they were extremely clean and semi-comfortable. Even the bathroom in the cafe car (which has surely gone 20 or so years without being refurbished) was a whole lot cleaner than bathrooms on my almost daily Tri-Rail trips! Almost all items in the cafe car were still in stock, along with about 2/3 of the items in the diner. They did close the lounge around Palm Beach though cause according to the cafe SA, "Miss Daisy's gotta do invantora and I dont want nobody gettin thays legs broked!" So for the remaining 30-40 minutes, I did what I would recommend to any other person traveling in coach on a quickly unloading train... find the nearest person playing a decent movie on a laptop or dvd player and take the seat immediately behind them. And the coach seats..... I swear they were better than first class on Delta! I wouldn't mind going all the way up to New York in one, they were that amazing.

But this short random day trip left me pondering a few things:

1. Will Silver Service ever get diner lites??

2. How much cheaper is it to upgrade to a sleeper onboard than the night before online?

3. Why is the Orlando station so far from downtown?? (When, in pictures, I've seen the train roll right through it)

4. Where do Viewliners get refurbished? Does the inside get refurbished too? (like on Superliners)

5. Are there any plans to remove heritage diners from the Silver trains?... because unless they've got a Viewliner Diner to replace them with, that would really make me mad

Pictures should be up in about two days

-Paul (Pablo for short)


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## Sam Damon (Jan 11, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> But this short random day trip left me pondering a few things:
> <snip>
> 
> 5. Are there any plans to remove heritage diners from the Silver trains?... because unless they've got a Viewliner Diner to replace them with, that would really make me mad


No such car as a "Viewliner Diner" exists, except as a prototype stored somewhere in a dead line.

I have read where the Viewliner Diner prototype was a particularly wretched piece of engineering that is better left in the dead line, than out running on an Amtrak train. If Amtrak replaces the Heritage Diners with anything, it will be with some sort of rebuilt Amfleet. Even so, the odds of that happening are on a par with your parents hitting Powerball for the grand prize.


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## had8ley (Jan 11, 2008)

Paul,

First let me say that you are mighty ambitious for 15 years old. I admired your travelogue and will try to answer your questions. Will Silver Service get diner lite cars? I'm not an Amtrak official but I would bet with the age and expense of maintaining 50 plus year old cars in daily service that sooner or later all the heritage diners will go the same way the dome cars did~ to the highest bidder and taken out of service. As far as upgrading on board the answer is yes. You can upgrade for 50% of the regular accommodation charge once the wheels start rolling. Don't hesitate to make sure there are rooms available. Ask the sleeping car attendants in Miami. Ask the ticket agent and most importantly ask the conductor when he lifts your ticket. It never hurts to say, "The attendant in Car # ---- says he has three empty roomettes." It tends to make the conductor remember who you are. If he says (and most do) "I'll check and see" don't wait over 30 minutes before tracking him down. Some conductors don't like the paper work involved in upgrading and will "forget" that you asked. Unfortunately, the Orlando station was once smack dab in the middle of downtown but the town has shifted. Go one station north to Winter Park and you'll be right in the middle of the town square. Viewliners I assume are re-furbished in Beech Grove, Indiana where the major Amtrak shops are. I'm not positive about this one so someone else may help out. They were built in the middle 90's but do roll on a daily basis. They were built in New England but I can't remember exactly which state. Each car has a builders plate in the vestibule and it will tell you the company and what state the Viewliners were built in. I'm almost sure the Heritage diners are nearing their retirement from active duty on Amtrak. There are no Viewliner diners that I know of unless a prototype exists that I have no knowledge of.

Good luck in your travels. There are many grown men who wish they could do what you are doing at such an early age. Keep up the good work.


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## VentureForth (Jan 11, 2008)

You can get cheaper rooms onboard. Sometimes at 50% what they would cost you online (whether 1 year ahead or the night before). The 50% is a wag - you can't bet on it. Last time I tried to do that, they wanted full fare and they had the rooms... But I've also got great deals.

If one conductor just refuses to accomodate you, wait for the next one. They change out pretty frequently.


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## AlanB (Jan 11, 2008)

First, there was indeed a Viewliner diner prototype. And as indicated by Sam, the crews hated it. It wasn't a well laid out kitchen and therefore not very functional. I seem to also recall that they put some unusual trucks on the car, that also caused no end of problems.

Next, about half of the Heritage dining car fleet was rebuilt inside with what is known as the Timoinsa rebuild. That's the name of the company that built the kit that Beech Grove installed into the cars.

Viewliners get refurbished in Beech Grove, but most other work on the cars is done in the Hialeah shops. Hence the deadheading car. As for inside vs. outside, that depends on what type of overhaul was scheduled and the money available at that time.

Amtrak isn't telling what the plans are for the future of dining cars on the Silver Service trains. Probably in part because Amtrak doesn't know if they will ever get the money to buy new cars, so they are just trying to keep things status quo for as long as they can. But without money soon, they will probably have no choice within the next 5 or 6 years to retire the Heritage dining cars.

Finally, the official rule on onboard upgrades is that you pay the lowest bucket price for that room. So if the train hasn't sold many rooms at all, then you may well get the same price that the website quoted you the night before. If lots of rooms have been sold, then you could easily get a price that's more than 50% off the price you saw the night before. It's just luck of the draw as far as how many rooms have been sold as to how much you can save.

There are no exceptions to this rule, unless you meet a conductor who doesn't want to do the paperwork and deliberately quotes a price that he figures you won't want to pay. The price is not set by the conductor, he has to call into space control both to get the price and to block out the room from being sold futher up the line.


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## had8ley (Jan 11, 2008)

AlanB said:


> First, there was indeed a Viewliner diner prototype. And as indicated by Sam, the crews hated it. It wasn't a well laid out kitchen and therefore not very functional. I seem to also recall that they put some unusual trucks on the car, that also caused no end of problems.


Alan;

Was the prototype diner built by the same company that built the Viewliner sleepers? Must have been quite a mess as I never remember seeing or hearing of it on the Crescent. Is it still available for service and do you know where it is stored?

Jay


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## AlanB (Jan 11, 2008)

had8ley said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > First, there was indeed a Viewliner diner prototype. And as indicated by Sam, the crews hated it. It wasn't a well laid out kitchen and therefore not very functional. I seem to also recall that they put some unusual trucks on the car, that also caused no end of problems.
> ...


No the prototye Viewliner diner, just like the prototype Viewliner sleepers #'s 2300 & 2301, was built by Amtrak at the Beech Grove shops. Amerail, the company that built the production Viewliners, had nothing to do with the prototypes, at least that I'm aware of.

The prototype diner is stored dead at Bear and I believe that it was been at least partially disasembeled as a mockup for a potential new order of Viewliner equipment, should Amtrak ever find the money to actually order something. The 2300 sleeper is also in the same state, setup as a mockup for a potential future order. That info was current as of April 2005, so things may have changed since then, although I'm certain that none of the equipment is in service. 2301 is stored dead at Beech Grove once again, although it did see some service a few years back as a crew dorm and even briefly I believe that it did a few revenue runs. It was also renumbered at that time to 62091 But problems with the trucks led to it's being sidelined once again.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I read that Budd was heavily involved in the initial Viewliner project, although they obviously went belly up before they were built...

If they built all-Viewliner trains, would the lounge have a glass roof, like the Sightseers? Would it be an observation? And would the Amfleets it would surely take out of LD service be converted to AmI spec and be used in the NEC?


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## Shotgun7 (Jan 11, 2008)

I really don't know all that much about Amtrak management, but I really, truely doubt that Amtrak would even consider making coaches based on the Viewliner design. That's one of those cars that was really designed to be nothing but a sleeping car. If Amtrak ever does get the money to start replacing or adding to Amfleet II's, the design will probably be very similar to the Amfleets since the design isn't that outdated and if they do get the money, it won't be very much. When I said I hope that they replace the diners with nothing but Viewliner diners, I knew that there are no revenue diners of the kind. I was just suggesting that they do a somewhat redesigning of the obviously non functional interior and buy new, simpler Viewliner diners to complement any new order of sleepers..... although I'm sure Amtrak isn't that ambitious.

Does anybody have any idea about what any new-order (no, not refurbished/re-designed like the Diner-lites) coach or diner might look like? Are there any conceptual plans for newbuilds incase they ever do get the money? I'm guessing that Bombardier/Alstom would end up being the builder, right?... Since there really isn't any other passenger rail car builder left (besides Colorado Railcar).

Again, thanks for the answers and advice,

Paul (Pablo)


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## AlanB (Jan 11, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> I really don't know all that much about Amtrak management, but I really, truely doubt that Amtrak would even consider making coaches based on the Viewliner design. That's one of those cars that was really designed to be nothing but a sleeping car.


Actually no, the Viewliner concept was designed to extend to all aspects of a long distance train. Amtrak just never found the money for it. In fact the original order for sleepers was scaled back from 100 to 50, thanks to lack of money. That's also one reason that no diners were ever built, beyond the prototype.



Shotgun7 said:


> If Amtrak ever does get the money to start replacing or adding to Amfleet II's, the design will probably be very similar to the Amfleets since the design isn't that outdated and if they do get the money, it won't be very much.


I sure hope that they don't use an Amfleet II design, at least as far as the interior of the car is concerned. If they don't want to follow in the Viewliner trend, then a car approaching something like the Acela cars would be far superior IMHO. Any new LD cars need the wonderfully big windows that Acela has, the huge bathrooms, luggage compartments, and other ammenities. The Amfleet cars are way too airplane like and Amtrak isn't an airplane, so it shouldn't follow airline models.



Shotgun7 said:


> Does anybody have any idea about what any new-order (no, not refurbished/re-designed like the Diner-lites) coach or diner might look like? Are there any conceptual plans for newbuilds incase they ever do get the money? I'm guessing that Bombardier/Alstom would end up being the builder, right?... Since there really isn't any other passenger rail car builder left (besides Colorado Railcar).


I would hope that Amtrak at least has some idea of what they'd like, but I honestly don't know if they have any actual plans. No clue who'd be the builder, but Bombardier/Alstom isn't the only game in town. Talgo still has a presence in this country, and there is I believe a Korean company that might also be able to deliver. CRC is a major unknown in that they've never built a large car order for anyone so far. To date they've largely built one car here, three there, two there, one more over there. I'm not sure if they could handle an order for 200 or more cars. Additionally what they have build is largely untested over several years. Of course Bombardier's experience didn't exactly help Amtrak out with Acela, although depending on who you believe it could be their fault or Amtrak's fault. Frankly I suspect that they both played a role in the problems that have cropped up with Acela.


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## Sam Damon (Jan 12, 2008)

It is my understanding further orders based on the Viewliner design are highly unlikely. This is owing to the outer shell of the Viewliner design being more difficult (and therefore expensive) to construct by an order of magnitude.

The Amfleet design -- even though Budd based it on the design for Metroliner MU cars -- supposedly is much cheaper to build. So I am told.


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## Sam Damon (Jan 12, 2008)

One other thing. I'm also told Bombardier is on the outs with Amtrak, owing to the whole legal turns and twists with Acela. Odds are Kawasaki or ROTEL would build the next batch of Amtrak rolling stock.


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## had8ley (Jan 12, 2008)

Sam Damon said:


> One other thing. I'm also told Bombardier is on the outs with Amtrak, owing to the whole legal turns and twists with Acela. Odds are Kawasaki or ROTEL would build the next batch of Amtrak rolling stock.


Your dead on Sam; when Amtrak and Bombardier settled their differences legally there was no love lost. What gets me is how you can have all the cowling on the Acela engines flying off at 150 mph and blame it on Amtrak. Only way I can figure is a design flaw made by Amtrak.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 12, 2008)

Pesonally, what I want to know is why people accept way too much of the crap they accept with products produced these days, be it cars, trains, buses, computers, or clothing. I used to have a '87 Mercedes 300TD, and when I wrecked it at about 450k miles and 18 years of age, it still didn't rattle and still had the solidity of a bank vault. Why are things built poorly? Why do people spend billions designing something yet manage to fail at getting rid of the bugs?


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## John Bredin (Jan 14, 2008)

> I sure hope that they don't use an Amfleet II design, at least as far as the interior of the car is concerned. If they don't want to follow in the Viewliner trend, then a car approaching something like the Acela cars would be far superior IMHO. Any new LD cars need the wonderfully big windows that Acela has, the huge bathrooms, luggage compartments, and other ammenities. The Amfleet cars are way too airplane like and Amtrak isn't an airplane, so it shouldn't follow airline models.


I don't know about the luggage racks or other amenities, but any new equipment MUST by law have larger windows and washrooms than Amfleet. Larger windows are required on all *new* passenger equipment (commuter and Amtrak) to make it easier in case of emergency for passengers and crew to escape and firefighters with air tanks to enter. Larger washrooms are an ADA accessibility requirement, again for new equipment.

Anyone who's ridden Metra more than once can immediately tell the difference between the old cars, essentially unchanged from the original 1950s gallery cars built for C&NW and Burlington, and the new cars with their huge windows and spacious washrooms. Like Amfleet, the old windows were like slits in comparison with the new cars.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 14, 2008)

John Bredin said:


> > I sure hope that they don't use an Amfleet II design, at least as far as the interior of the car is concerned. If they don't want to follow in the Viewliner trend, then a car approaching something like the Acela cars would be far superior IMHO. Any new LD cars need the wonderfully big windows that Acela has, the huge bathrooms, luggage compartments, and other ammenities. The Amfleet cars are way too airplane like and Amtrak isn't an airplane, so it shouldn't follow airline models.
> 
> 
> I don't know about the luggage racks or other amenities, but any new equipment MUST by law have larger windows and washrooms than Amfleet. Larger windows are required on all *new* passenger equipment (commuter and Amtrak) to make it easier in case of emergency for passengers and crew to escape and firefighters with air tanks to enter. Larger washrooms are an ADA accessibility requirement, again for new equipment.
> ...


Why are they slits?


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## John Bredin (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, slits may be a bit of an exaggeration, but when you go from one of the old Metra cars to one of the new ones, the difference in window size is striking. I've heard non-railfans riding Metra comment on the different-sized windows, so it's immediately noticeable to someone who *isn't* looking for the difference.

As to *why* they used to be so small, I would guess probably because:

1) they're commuter cars so Metra and its predecessors didn't think passengers would need big panorama windows, just something big enough to see what station they were at.

2) bigger windows mean the car is structurally weaker than smaller windows. I don't know how much weaker -- I'm no engineer, either the "operate a train" kind or the "design machines" kind -- but the designers probably figured why take chances on bigger windows when, as said in (1), sightseeing wasn't a priority.

Getting back to the Amfleets, IIRC there's a particular reason why their windows are small. Amfleets are a monocoque design, where the outer shell of the car *is* the frame; that is, it's not just a metal skin over the real frame. That's also why Amfleet cars are shaped like a tube, IIRC.


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