# Sunset Early Arrival



## rtabern (May 17, 2012)

I see that the westbound Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited (#1/#421) could get into LAX as early as 4:35am now with the new schedule!! Yikes!! I know you can theoretically occupy the sleeper until 6:30am, but I don't know if that would really be possible because I'm sure a lot of people would be up on arrival and would move around and making noise... plus the sleeping car attendant probably wants everyone off too. I hate to say it, but I doubt I would probably not take this train anymore getting into LAX that early. I heard the 4:35am arrival earlier this week was sorta a cluster at LAX -- only 2 redcaps on duty, none of the shops open, etc. Also, I heard the lounge car opens at 4am on the arrival into LAX. Wow!! I wonder about the diner?


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## The Davy Crockett (May 18, 2012)

What fun! :blink:

I know there are some 'winners' in the new SSL schedule, and there are those of us here who don't want to admit it, but the early arrival into LAX is a problem, *especially* when #1 is running early.

Personally I'm not sure I'll ever take #1 into LAX again unless some adjustments are made to ease one's arrival into a slumbering City of Angels.

It is true Amtrak will likely recover any loss in revenue due to lower ridership into LAX, with cost savings, but for passengers, other than the benefit of the better connection to #14 (and nodding off in the PPC after the wine and cheese, if not before) most passengers into LAX end up 'on the short end of the stick' with the new arrival time.

Score one for the accountants.


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## Ispolkom (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> I know you can theoretically occupy the sleeper until 6:30am, but I don't know if that would really be possible because I'm sure a lot of people would be up on arrival and would move around and making noise... plus the sleeping car attendant probably wants everyone off too.


You're too nice a guy. If the sleeping car attendant tried to get me out of my bedroom early I'd be sure to stay in my bed right up to the time listed in the schedule, just to spite him. And I'd save the money that otherwise would have gone to his tip for breakfast at Philippe's.


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## saxman (May 18, 2012)

I don't see the big deal really. I'm not going to not ride a train simply because it gets in at an early hour. Back before the schedule was expanded, #1 use to arrive into LAX at 6:30 AM. (Or was suppose to, at least) Where I use to live, the train came at 1 AM and 5 AM. I just made a reservation on the Sunset Ltd. to connect with the Coast Starlight in July. I'll see how it goes.

Plus, does it say anywhere that we can stay in our sleeper until 6:30 AM? It doesn't mention that anywhere in the timetable.


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## Ispolkom (May 18, 2012)

saxman said:


> Plus, does it say anywhere that we can stay in our sleeper until 6:30 AM? It doesn't mention that anywhere in the timetable.


On the 5/7/12 Sunset Limited timetable at amtrak.com it says on page 2: "Sleeping car passengers arriving at Los Angeles are welcome to occupy their accommodations until 6:30 a.m."


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## Guestlsa (May 18, 2012)

No breakfast and the last 2 trips train 1 has came in at 430 am ( as matter fact today's train came in at 427).


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 18, 2012)

The _*Sunset*_ is my "default" train to LAX and I've had to deal with arrivals between 0630 and 0700 with no problems. And now if we got in at 0430, I'd just roll over and sack it out until closing time and then head straight away to Philippe for Breakfast. If I'm connecting with the _*Starlight*_, that's just a couple more hours waiting in a very pleasant station and if I'm staying in LA I'd most likely be at the Metro Plaza and they will usually do best they can to have you in your room before noon.

Train schedules cannot be perfect but for well over 100 years folks have dealt with that just fine


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 18, 2012)

Oh but there is a huge history of "set out sleepers" in this country.It has not happened too much on Amtrak just because there are so fewer trains now than in the past.It has happened some under Amtrak like on the overnight NEC trains.

But honestly if you were to glimpse an old Official Railway Guide up until the early 60s you would find masses of set out sleepers all over the country and at cities much smaller than Los Angeles

My favorite story, when I was in grade school, was at the station in Chattanooga putting my sister on a train to Birmingham. I noticed a lone sleeper sitting there for some reason. All of a sudden people started coming out of it. I thought they were crazy--what were those fools doing in an empty spare car supposedly going nowhere? Turns out they had arrived at 3.35 am on the Tennessean from Memphis and they could stay on board until 8 am.The rest of the train left at 4 am to Washington,NYC.

In the other direction people in Chattanooga could board the sleeper at 9.30 pm while the train to Memphis did not arrive from NYC and Washington until midnight.

Of course we have some generations of travelers who have never heard of such a thing, including the car attendants.

But I bet we could get used to it again, inasmuch as it was so common in the past


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## henryj (May 18, 2012)

Most of the people on the train got on as CDT or MTD. There are few local riders on the train. So a 5:30 arrival is really 7:30 or 6:30 even if Californians aren't up yet. The Cardinal leaves New York at 6:45am. How many New Yorkers get up early enough to make that train? The Sunset's schedule was adjusted to eliminate the long layover in San Antonio and give decent arrival and departure times to the large population centers on the route. I am sure the passengers can live with the early arrival in LAX ok. It gets them home or headed to their destination ahead of the rush hour in LA.


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## rtabern (May 18, 2012)

Saw #1/#421 got in at 4:27AM TODAY!!

I guess it (early arrival time) is not a huge deal if you're a morning person or live in LAX or have somewhere to go when you get to the station.

The problem is how do you kill 6 hours in the wee hours of the morning if you are connecting to #14? OR... how do you kill 11 hours before you can check into your hotel if you are staying in LAX?

I'd say maybe hold the train just one or two more hours at SAS -- and get in around 5:30 or 6:30am instead.

There is not a good place to store your bags in LAX (atleast not a free place to store your bags for those in sleepers)... and I dont think I would really want to wonder around that neighborhood at 4AM either.


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## rtabern (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> Saw #1/#421 got in at 4:27AM TODAY!!
> 
> I guess it (early arrival time) is not a huge deal if you're a morning person or live in LAX or have somewhere to go when you get to the station.
> 
> ...


Another idea would be to make #421 an EVENING train out of Chicago... and #1 leave NOL later too.

This could create a possible connection to some of the later-day state trains into CHI... and possibly even a new connection with #4 and #8 (we won't even try and go there with #6)


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## tubaia (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> Saw #1/#421 got in at 4:27AM TODAY!!
> 
> I guess it (early arrival time) is not a huge deal if you're a morning person or live in LAX or have somewhere to go when you get to the station.
> 
> ...


If somebody needs to rent a car at the station, Hertz doesn't open until 7:00, or even 8:00 on the weekends.


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## saxman (May 18, 2012)

Points run to Fullerton! Or a day trip to San Diego!


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## rtabern (May 18, 2012)

saxman said:


> Points run to Fullerton! Or a day trip to San Diego!


How about letting #1 continue on to San Diego then??  Let it arrive around 8AM in SAN??  Just kidding.

Actually, one of my favorite things to do is the Surfliner turn to Solana Beach... there is a beautiful beach with 700 foot high cliffs overlooking it about a 2 block walk away from the stop there. It's kinda a well-kept secret my friend in LAX told me about.


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## guest in SD (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Points run to Fullerton! Or a day trip to San Diego!
> ...


Not sure to whom the beach is a secret to? Perhaps Amtrak riders from the East Coast who get to Solana Beach once in a blue moon. But for legions of Southern Californians, this beach, known as Fletcher Cove, is one of the most popular and most crowded beaches in San Diego County. It certainly does have high cliffs but is easily accessed down the extension of Lomas Santa Fe Drive west of the Coast Highway. The Amtrak/Coaster station is on the east side of the intersection.


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## pldenc44 (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Points run to Fullerton! Or a day trip to San Diego!
> ...


Solana Beach is my destination from Tucson. The Surfliner leaves LAX at 6:15 and arrives in Solana Beach at 8:22. It's basically a 12 hour overnight trip to get from Tucson to San Diego. Too bad there isn't a line that goes straight to San Diego... trust me it's a much nicer place to be than LA and the northbound surfliner/coaster will take you where you need to go.

Six hours in my car, or twelve hours on an overnight train? I guess it depends on how well you sleep on a train! I do this trip about 5-6 times per year and haven't ever taken the train yet, but I will someday. PS... the flight is less than 1 hour and about $90... hard to beat that.


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## guest (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Points run to Fullerton! Or a day trip to San Diego!
> ...


SEVEN HUNDRED feet high???? I think not! Try, maybe, seventy, and to get that you'd have to walk south to Torrey Pines/Black's Beach...


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## pldenc44 (May 18, 2012)

guest in SD said:


> rtabern said:
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> > saxman said:
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Solana Beach is not crowded by any stretch of the imagination. Ever been to pacific beach, ocean beach, or any beach in Orange County or LA? I grew up 10 mins from there. It's a nice place and plenty quiet except for the big holiday weekends. Personally, I prefer Moonlight Beach. It's a 5 minute walk from the Encinitas station (no Amtrak... gotta take the Coaster). It's a great place.


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## gswager (May 18, 2012)

Don't change your watch from central time to pacific time. Your watch will say, "6:30 am" instead of "4:30 am".

I wouldn't mind it since I'm a morning person and it's one time event during your vacation.


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## jis (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> Another idea would be to make #421 an EVENING train out of Chicago... and #1 leave NOL later too.
> 
> This could create a possible connection to some of the later-day state trains into CHI... and possibly even a new connection with #4 and #8 (we won't even try and go there with #6)


But that would potentially upset the Metrolink folks, who reportedly want the Sunset consist out of the station by 7am.


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## Trogdor (May 18, 2012)

jis said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Another idea would be to make #421 an EVENING train out of Chicago... and #1 leave NOL later too.
> ...


Strange since, until last week, #1 was arriving at 7 am (if it had a good run and got in early).


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## henryj (May 18, 2012)

rtabern said:


> Saw #1/#421 got in at 4:27AM TODAY!!
> 
> I guess it (early arrival time) is not a huge deal if you're a morning person or live in LAX or have somewhere to go when you get to the station.
> 
> ...


Every hotel I have ever stayed in will check you bags in for you while you wait for your room. Most flights to Europe get in early in the morning. Same for New Zealand and Australia. I have never had a problem with this in the US either. People on here appear to be staying up nights trying to dream up scenarios that just don't exist. There is nothing wrong with an early morning arrival in LA and waiting around for another connection is the same whether it's in an airport or a train station.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 18, 2012)

What is it about pensioners that makes them think they speak for _everyone?_

Just because there is no such thing as "too early" for you doesn't meant that's how it works for everyone else.

*For me* 4:30 AM is too early of an arrival.

*For me* 2:45 AM is too early of a departure.

*For me* the new service days don't work with when I can travel.

For several years the Sunset Limited accounted for the vast majority of my train travel. With the new schedule it will probably account for little or none.

I can see the reasoning for why Amtrak would benefit from this change in a general ledger sense.

Only will tell if this move will actually benefit the ridership of the Sunset Limited route _specifically_.


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## Texan Eagle (May 18, 2012)

Wow this is a first! People complaining because an Amtrak train is running on time or before time!




Only in America indeed.!

How about signing a petition to hand over to Union Pacific requesting them to hold Sunset Limited in random sidings for hours on end so that it arrives into LAX at a "better" time of say, 9 or 10am? They sure would be happy to do that, considering how much they "love" Amtrak trains occupying their tracks and delaying freights.


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## Blackwolf (May 18, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow this is a first! People complaining because an Amtrak train is running on time or before time!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 18, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow this is a first! People complaining because an Amtrak train is running on time or before time! Only in America indeed!


Only in America?

In what country does the business day end at 2:45AM and start up again at 4:30AM?


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## Donctor (May 18, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Wow this is a first! People complaining because an Amtrak train is running on time or before time! Only in America indeed!
> ...


Spain. They take a reaaaaally long nap in the middle of the day.


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## johnny.menhennet (May 18, 2012)

Personally, i do not find Fletcher Cove to be too crowded. Moonlight is an incredible beach in Encinitas and is much more crowded, as is the entirety of Del Mar, especially around 15th St./Powerhouse (right at the depot) since parking is hard to find on the rest of Del Mar. Solana Beach has the cliffs that make the beach relatively inaccessible except at Fletcher Cove, where there is little parking. Solana Beach's cliffs may at times be 150 feet, but I would not go for 700. The highest in the county would be right below the golf course and the Gliderport at Torrey Pines. I go to Moonlight Beach all the time since my high school is in Encinitas (San Dieguito Academy) and Moonlight is one of the few beaches where you can still have bonfires, so all of my little clubs (Academic Team, Speech and Debate, Comedy Sportz, etc.) all hang out there. But seriously of you want busy, go to MB at Belmont Park on the 4th of July.

On train stuff, I personally don't see an issue with the early arrival. I'd rather have the train arrive early consistently rather than be late consistently on previous schedules. The people who purchase tix on these runs know what they are in for when they buy. I think the times overall are great for the stops en route. The only thing I still don't like the MOST is the fact that there are no connections from either the CONO or Crescent in NOLA. I know that this has always been a problem, but if Amtrak sees a big market in pax connecting between trains like 14 and 2, then they should look at finding SOME way to resolve this. I know it would be very difficult, but there should have been a solution in the first place.


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## Texan Eagle (May 18, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Wow this is a first! People complaining because an Amtrak train is running on time or before time! Only in America indeed!
> ...


I don't know how 2.45AM came into the picture and I also don't know what why "business day" is important here, but if you want examples of trains and flights originating and arriving at unearthly hours, I can give you one example- India (or any country in the sub-continent for that matter). I can't find the link now but I remember someone had prepared a nice list on the Indian Railways Fan Club site of 'Trains Departing from Source and/or Arriving at Destination between midnight and 5AM' and it had several dozen express trains. Also, because of Americas (and Europe's) insistence of wanting the luxury of arriving departing at comfortable hours, international flights to and from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh end up there at ungodly hours. Go to any travel sites and check flights from Mumbai to New York or Delhi to Chicago or any such pair and you will see almost all arrivals barring a couple of non-stops between 11pm and 5am. I have experienced this five times by now- reaching Mumbai in the dead of the night and starting from Mumbai in wee hours of the day. Long story short- due to scheduling requirements, trains and planes DO end up at their source or destination at not-so-great hours. It's nothing to lose sleep over nor unique to Sunset Limited. Deal with it. Take another means of transport if you love your sleep so much.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 18, 2012)

I would much rather roll into LAUPT(S) at 0530 and be able to relax a bit before starting my ground day than arrive at some international airport at 0630 jetlagged, cramped and having to deal with Customs and Immigrations and then figuring out how to get to the hotel, let alone being able to get into a room. And last time I flew into Heathrow, Tegel or Schiphol there was no Phillipe across the street


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## henryj (May 18, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> What is it about pensioners that makes them think they speak for _everyone?_
> 
> Just because there is no such thing as "too early" for you doesn't meant that's how it works for everyone else.
> 
> ...


LOL, Texas Sunset is in San Antonio. They are just in the wrong place geographically for this train. I am in Houston, so I am very pleased with the new timetable. Back in the good old days when SP ran the train and it was new, the westbound was overnight between NOL and Houston going through SAS around noon. But the eastbound still hit SAS between 3:30 and 4 in the morning. But then there was a second train on the route called the Argonaut. As long as you connect with the Eagle, this schedule is about as good as you can get. If you want to run the Eagle out the Baird sub to El Paso and connect there then you could flip the Sunset schedule and go through SAS during the day. But Houston to NOL would be overnight both ways. We will miss you TS, but I am sure you will be replaced many time over by others who like the new schedule.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 18, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Texan Eagle said:
> ...


2:45 AM is when the westbound Sunset Limited leaves SAS.

4:40 AM is when the eastbound Sunset Limited arrives at SAS.

4:45 AM is when the westbound Sunset Limited arrives at LAX.

"Business hours" are when most Americans of working age are going to expect most forms of transportation to be available to them. We're talking about the one and only train running between the seventh and second largest cities in the US here. What other country's passenger rail system operates like that?



Texan Eagle said:


> Also, because of Americas (and Europe's) insistence of wanting the luxury of arriving departing at comfortable hours, international flights to and from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh end up there at ungodly hours.


If Indian flights are arriving and departing at ungodly hours then wouldn't that seem to go *against* what the European and American passengers are insisting upon? Or are you saying that Indians are the only people traveling between India and Europe/America? Everything I've seen so far has claimed the reason Indian flights leave and arrive at such odd hours is because their infrastructure cannot physically handle it any other way. Is that incorrect?



Texan Eagle said:


> Go to any travel sites and check flights from Mumbai to New York or Delhi to Chicago or any such pair and you will see almost all arrivals barring a couple of non-stops between 11pm and 5am. I have experienced this five times by now- reaching Mumbai in the dead of the night and starting from Mumbai in wee hours of the day.


Maybe you should petition the FAA and regional ATC's to repeatedly delay your flights. I mean, wasn't that the same sort of useless advice you were trying to peddle to us earlier?



Texan Eagle said:


> Long story short- due to scheduling requirements, trains and planes DO end up at their source or destination at not-so-great hours. It's nothing to lose sleep over nor unique to Sunset Limited. Deal with it. Take another means of transport if you love your sleep so much.


Long story short - apparently you're just as bitter and snarky about scheduling as anyone else.


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## Texan Eagle (May 19, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> We're talking about the one and only train running between the seventh and second largest cities in the US here. What other country's passenger rail system operates like that?


Ok, gotta give it to you on this one. Agreed. No other country's passenger rail system operates like that because any decent country worth its name would have multiple daily departures between the seventh and second largest cities 








Texas Sunset said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Go to any travel sites and check flights from Mumbai to New York or Delhi to Chicago or any such pair and you will see almost all arrivals barring a couple of non-stops between 11pm and 5am. I have experienced this five times by now- reaching Mumbai in the dead of the night and starting from Mumbai in wee hours of the day.
> ...


No. What I was suggesting was that I have arrived at destination at all sorts of god forsaken hours of the night and its not a big deal, so no need to delay flights. Also, sorry my bad I forgot to put <sarcasm> tags around the asking-UP-to-delay-SL "useless advice".


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## Anderson (May 19, 2012)

Let's face it...the problem here isn't the train schedule _per se_...it's that on a lot of routes, there is _one _daily train, which leaves a lot of folks SOL if the timings aren't great. A lovely example of the side-effects of this include the lack of a decent business train from Chicago _to_ the East Coast (in spite of having two decent ones _to_ Chicago...neither is terrific, but the LSL and Cap both do at least a decent job in this regard). On the one hand, each route only has one train; on the other hand, coming in from the west, each route only has one train.

But even setting connection-related issues aside, there are a lot of cities that get a pretty bad deal as a result. San Antonio is one of them; another would be Salt Lake City, and Minneapolis is another example (though that partly comes from being at the end of a very long route). Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Omaha, and Memphis also come to mind to varying extents (some are decent one way but lousy another; some are awful all around). I know that there are cases that I'd take an additional layover for a few hours if I could have a decent starting time (Salt Lake City, I'm looking at you).

As to the arrival time issue, part of the problem there isn't just that the arrival time is at an annoying hour...it's also that you end up arriving at a time when there's no connecting transit, nothing is open, etc. For example, with a 5:00 AM arrival in downtown LA...there's not even likely to be an IHOP or anything like that, and there simply aren't hotels set up to deal with folks arriving at a super-early hour. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't too many hotels where check-in is 4 AM and check-out is 2 PM.*

*I'm in Holiday Inn's Priority Club, so I've managed a number 2 PM checkouts. With that said, this isn't standard for any chain that I know of. I'd also note that this point is also annoying as someone who prefers to drive through the night and sleep for a good portion of the day as a means of avoiding rush hour traffic.


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## The Davy Crockett (May 19, 2012)

Could the definition of an 'Amtrak Apologist' be someone who says a schedule change which results in a LD train now arriving into its final station, where nothing is open and no services are available - *at 4:30 AM *- is not a bad idea? And will try to claim it is a good thing?

I can hear this coming too: "A *TRUE* railfan would know how to deal with the situation and, in fact, would thrive under such circumstances."

HUH? :wacko:

Who said being a railfan meant being a masochist? :unsure:

And most people who ride Amtrak are not railfans. Look at the expressions on their faces when they hear they might get into LAX at 4:30 in the morning. :blink:

I stay at a hotel when I'm in LA that has been good about holding my bag, and often getting me early check-ins when I arrive on #1 or #3, but I can see the night desk person's face when I ask for an early check-in at 5:30 in the morning.


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## Trogdor (May 19, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > We're talking about the one and only train running between the seventh and second largest cities in the US here. What other country's passenger rail system operates like that?
> ...


If we're going to start attacking the passenger rail network in the US because of its poor connectivity in connecting the "seventh and second largest cities" (an arbitrary rule of thumb, if I've ever heard one), I guess the first question is, what other country's seventh and second largest cities are 1300 miles apart?


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## Michael061282 (May 19, 2012)

they should rename #1 the Sunrise Limited and keep #2 the Sunset Limited... OOOf.. 5:30 scheduled arrival time. I do remember taking the old Night Owl from DC in about 1989 and being in a set off car Amtrak called "The Executive Sleeper" The Attendant told us when we got to NY, To make sure our bedroom doors were LOCKED. And once the car was switched off the Night Owl, he'd stay awake for 30 minutes incase people wanted to get out and streth or whatever but once the car doors were shut they were staying that way until 545am. As the SCA said "Too many strange people in these tunnels"


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## Anderson (May 19, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Texan Eagle said:
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> > Texas Sunset said:
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The only countries with city spacing on the scale of the US are the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, and China); (the long southern parts of Argentina and Chile are largely unoccupied). Brazil simply doesn't have a passenger rail network anymore (there's one line in one part of the country), which really only leaves China, India, and Russia. And India...definitely qualifies for this. Bombay-Calcutta is around 1200 miles. Shanghai-Beijing is about 1000 miles, and Guangzhou-Beijing (I'm using this as a proxy for Hong Kong) is around 1350 miles. And Russia is Russia.


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## jis (May 19, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> jis said:
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> > rtabern said:
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That's what we were told at a NARP meeting by an Amtrak Management type guy. So maybe that is the Amtrak party position on this matter? I have no way of knowing why he said so.


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## afigg (May 19, 2012)

Anderson said:


> The only countries with city spacing on the scale of the US are the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, and China); (the long southern parts of Argentina and Chile are largely unoccupied). Brazil simply doesn't have a passenger rail network anymore (there's one line in one part of the country), which really only leaves China, India, and Russia. And India...definitely qualifies for this. Bombay-Calcutta is around 1200 miles. Shanghai-Beijing is about 1000 miles, and Guangzhou-Beijing (I'm using this as a proxy for Hong Kong) is around 1350 miles. And Russia is Russia.


Hmm, what about Canada and Australia? If Kazakhstan had major cities on the east and western end of the country, they could be 1500 miles apart.

Anyway, I agree with your previous post about the limits imposed by a once a day LD train network. With a intercity passenger train system that is skeletal at best outside of the Northeast, Midwest, California, NW corridors, impossible to schedule the trains to arrive and depart at all the major cities at convenient hours. Amtrak has to accommodate a limited number of connection options as best as they can.

When UP finishes the double tracking from LA to El Paso and the projects in CA, the westbound SL may end up arriving LA at 3:30 AM. What would happen if the westbound SL schedule were to be shifted to 2 hours later? Back to a longer layover in SAS for the TE, but the TE CHI-SAS schedule could be shifted with an hour later departure from CHI. Which, of course, impacts on the slot availability in CHI and the CHI-STL corridor schedules. With only 15 LD trains, there is a complex ripple effect on any change.


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## PRR 60 (May 19, 2012)

jis said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
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I think the key point is that the SCRRA does not want the Sunset Limited _scheduled_ into LAX during morning rush hour. If it happened to arrive during the morning rush because it was early (or now late), then they dealt with it. The SCCRA absolutely does not want it sitting from 5:30am (or earlier) into rush hour so sleeper passengers can get some extra sleep. So, at 6:30am, everyone gets off, and the train has to be taken out of LAX to make room for the commuter trains. That is what happens when you are a guest in someone else's home. You play be the owner's rules.


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 19, 2012)

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > The only countries with city spacing on the scale of the US are the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, and China); (the long southern parts of Argentina and Chile are largely unoccupied). Brazil simply doesn't have a passenger rail network anymore (there's one line in one part of the country), which really only leaves China, India, and Russia. And India...definitely qualifies for this. Bombay-Calcutta is around 1200 miles. Shanghai-Beijing is about 1000 miles, and Guangzhou-Beijing (I'm using this as a proxy for Hong Kong) is around 1350 miles. And Russia is Russia.
> ...


Yes, Canada and Australia both have super-long-distance trains. Argentina actually has some long routes as well. They probably have the best system in South America.


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## Montanan (May 19, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
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Canada, Australia, and Argentina definitely have geographies that are more similar to the U.S. than most other countries ... and none of their longest-distance routes operate daily. The Canadian of course operates tri-weekly, but the longest-distance routes in Australia and Argentina only run twice-weekly ... so in comparison, we're doing pretty good.


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## JayPea (May 19, 2012)

I wouldn't mind the new SL schedule. I work the graveyard shift at my place of employment, so I'm used to being wide awake at 4:30 AM. So *for me,* the earlier arrival into Los Angeles would be no problem. I have never ridden the SL from New Orleans to San Antonio; it's the only portion of any of the western LD trains I've never ridden. It's on my to do list.

As one who frequently boards/detrains at Spokane, I have empathy for those folks in San Antonio. The hours at Spokane are godawful too. Yet to make good connection times with trains in Chicago and Seattle/Portland, the schedule has to be what it is. The only solution I see is to run another EB 12 hours later. Of course that will never happen. Either that, or move Spokane a few hundred miles either direction. :lol:


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## Devil's Advocate (May 19, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Let's face it...the problem here isn't the train schedule _per se_...it's that on a lot of routes, there is _one _daily train, which leaves a lot of folks SOL if the timings aren't great. As to the arrival time issue, part of the problem there isn't just that the arrival time is at an annoying hour...it's also that you end up arriving at a time when there's no connecting transit, nothing is open, etc.


Exactly.

Try getting a ride to or from the train station at 2:45 AM or 4:30 AM. Where I live that's simply not a normal request and for anything besides an emergency I wouldn't even be asking. Of course if I had an actual emergency I certainly wouldn't be riding the Sunset Limited. Other than Amtrak there is no other public transportation running at those hours. We do have taxis, but they generally cost around $40-$50 each direction even if you're no more than fifteen minutes away. So now you just added another $80-$100 or so per trip because there is no economical way to get to/from your train. Combining recent increases in ticket costs with taxi fees and you could be paying almost as much as a flight that runs every couple hours for a service that takes five _times_ longer and runs once _every few days_ in the middle of the night.

For some folks this schedule is an improvement. If that's the case then *I'm happy* for those who feel that way. For other folks this new schedule makes even less sense than the previous schedule made. This is probably the only change we'll see to the schedule for many years so some of us are understandably rather disappointed. Then there are the folks who have apparently made it their mission to challenge anyone who dares to criticize this change. I simply cannot fathom what folks like that hope to accomplish by browbeating everyone else into silence.


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## gswager (May 19, 2012)

jis said:


> But that would potentially upset the Metrolink folks, who reportedly want the Sunset consist out of the station by 7am.


I kind of doubt it because Amtrak has 3 or 4 "dedicated" tracks for multiple Pacific Surfliners, Coast Starlight (10 am and 8 pm), Southwest Chief (7 am & 6 pm), and Sunset Limited (6 am"ish" and 10 pm). Plus 2 "new" tracks will be available in a year or two. One track can only fit one long distance Amtrak train.

EDIT: Fix Sunset Limited departure time.


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## henryj (May 19, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I simply cannot fathom what folks like that hope to accomplish by browbeating everyone else into silence.


I am just reading this with utter amusement. Where was all this angst when #2 arrived in Houston 4:40am and was often early? In all this crying and nashing of teeth I have not read anyone post a proposed solution. I have played with the Sunset's schedule for years since Katrina working on various options. Westbound San Antonio is just SOL. This schedule is about as good as it gets. The only other option would be to leave SAS a little earlier, but you have to allow for a TE that is often an hour or more late. The only way to negotiate a later arrival in LAX is to increase the length of the stopovers in El Paso and Tucson. In other words just add more padding. Eastbound the schedule is just about optimal. I had originally planned for a 7am or so departure from SAS and they got close with the 6:30. You have to arrive in SAS early enough to allow for UP delays so as not to impact the TE departures and you don't want to arrive in NOL exceptionally late. So in my opinion Amtrak has just about nailed it with this new schedule. Historically under Amtrak and late SP #1 has always been scheduled into LAX early in the morning. The only improvement I can think of would be, as I stated above, to have the train #1 dally in El Paso and Tucson a little longer so as to arrive in LAX around 6:30 or 7am. But as many have already stated above, this schedule had to be worked out with the agency owning LA Union Station and the tracks there, but also the UP. So it could be this is the best they could get. Anyway, there is no problem with arriving in LAX early. You just sit down and relax and take your time getting to your ultimate destination. At least you beat the rush hour. Hotels will check your bags for you so you can do some shopping or sight seeing while you wait for check in time. I have done this many times.


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## the_traveler (May 19, 2012)

A few years ago, the CZ left SLC around 12:30 am westbound & 4:30 am eastbound. (Without looking, I don't think it changed all that much.) And SLC is not exactly a small city. No, it doesn't have all those millions and millions of people. When I lived in AZ, my nearest station was Needles, CA - which was served at 1 am & 2 am. Yes, it is a small town - but at the time was the van connection point to/from Las Vegas! And how about #66 & #67 - which get to NYP (a VERY BIG city) at 2 am! Many get on and off both trains in the middle of the night!


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## the_traveler (May 19, 2012)

Just to add, this week I took the Downeaster (after arriving on #66) and got to POR well before noon. I had no problem checking in at that time!


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## AmtrakBlue (May 19, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> A few years ago, the CZ left SLC around 12:30 am westbound & 4:30 am eastbound. (Without looking, I don't think it changed all that much.) And SLC is not exactly a small city. No, it doesn't have all those millions and millions of people. When I lived in AZ, my nearest station was Needles, CA - which was served at 1 am & 2 am. Yes, it is a small town - but at the time was the van connection point to/from Las Vegas! And how about #66 & #67 - which get to NYP (a VERY BIG city) at 2 am! Many get on and off both trains in the middle of the night!


SLC Is now about an hour earlier each way. Provo is the better station for me ( a lot closer to my daughter), but does not even have an AmShack. I got off in Provo last fall, but I may book to SLC just in case my SIL can't pick me up when the train is due to arrive in Provo. I can then wait at SLC or try to get a hotel.


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## Anderson (May 19, 2012)

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > The only countries with city spacing on the scale of the US are the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, and China); (the long southern parts of Argentina and Chile are largely unoccupied). Brazil simply doesn't have a passenger rail network anymore (there's one line in one part of the country), which really only leaves China, India, and Russia. And India...definitely qualifies for this. Bombay-Calcutta is around 1200 miles. Shanghai-Beijing is about 1000 miles, and Guangzhou-Beijing (I'm using this as a proxy for Hong Kong) is around 1350 miles. And Russia is Russia.
> ...


I'm somewhat embarrassed at forgetting Canada. Australia's situation is a bit more of a mess because of all the gauge breaks. Kazakhstan and a few others might make the list, but for a lack of either rail networks or, in some cases, relevant cities.


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## GG-1 (May 19, 2012)

Aloha

I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 19, 2012)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!


Plus Las Vegas at 4:30 in the morning will be every bit as busy as at 4:30 in the afternoon!


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## GG-1 (May 20, 2012)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aloha
> ...


:giggle: Actually 4:30 in the morning might be busier, especially in the summer. :lol:

Aloha


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## Anderson (May 20, 2012)

GG-1 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > GG-1 said:
> ...


Joking aside, Vegas is one of those few "24 hour" cities out there, and probably the only one that is tourist-oriented in a real way. I expect I would have no problem getting a cab or a hotel shuttle of some sort in the middle of the night without too much warning there (whereas I expect that it would be a mild hassle in, say, LA). It is one of the few places that a middle-of-the-night service would probably work out decently well.

As to 66/67, that's a funny case. First, it's not really _aimed_ at NYP after a fashion...it's aimed at the BOS-WAS market. Second, 66/67 is one of many trains along the NEC (and really, just about anywhere it makes an "insane hour" calling...it's "decent hour" stops on th Virginia Peninsula are about the only places it's one of less than five trains per day making a stop). 66/67 gets business because it is one service of many along the line, so one can use it to get to DC/Boston for a morning meeting from the other end of the corridor and then grab an Acela or a Regional (at one's preference) back.

Again, to my point...the Zephyr hitting SLC at 3:30 AM wouldn't be so bad if we still had something like DRG&W's Prospector leaving at a sane hour, or even for that matter if there was a train hitting Ogden (or Provo) at a decent hour and with a transfer (Ogden could be handled by offering a one-way Ambus-style ticket on FrontRunner). Yes, you would lose some traffic on the transfer, but the presence of one arrival at a decent hour in each direction would do wonders. The same can be said for other cities with similarly bad times; I would actually argue that the presence of the Palmetto probably adds some traffic to the Meteor/Star simply because it enables some one-way connectivity.

On the Sunset, for example, I'm willing to accept that there's no good solution for the train as a whole. Somebody is going to be the odd man out. The same applies to the CA Zephyr as well, given the lost time on that route over the years...and so on (witness Ohio's predicament...probably the best argument to be had against the 3C's operation was the lack of any decent-hour connection going elsewhere to interchange with at either end of the line). There are a _lot_ of routes where the presence of an intermediate corridor train, a secondary train spaced 4-8 hours to one side, or _something _in addition to a once-daily train would do wonders for the desirability of train travel.

Sliding back around to an LA-specific issue: What time _does_ Phillipe's open?


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## Texan Eagle (May 20, 2012)

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will *always* have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.


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## jis (May 20, 2012)

VIA does that with the Jasper - Prince Rupert Service. It also saves on Sleeper cost since the passengers get to spend the night in a hotel at Prince George, halfway to Prince Rupert.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 20, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will *always* have to bear midnight arrivals and departures.


What people? I'm not aware of anyone who thinks every city should be blessed with daytime hours.



Texan Eagle said:


> What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation.


Try their best to match those hours in larger cities like LA?



Texan Eagle said:


> If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.


Are you hungry for breakfast at 4AM? You're in luck! The market has created a food stall for you. ^_^

What about going back to sleep or getting a ride to your final destination or even just storing your bags?

Not to mention that I doubt you could just show up and put a food stall in or around the LAX property where arriving passengers would see it. With only one train to serve every few days it would be completely dependent on the SL's passenger numbers and on-time performance and would be unlikely to work as a contracted vendor.

I don't think this change was made to improve the SL's passenger numbers so much as it was made to keep from watching expensive hardware and well paid employees sitting around doing nothing for days on end due to an unresolved scheduling loophole. That's a perfectly reasonable goal of course, but it also comes with negative consequences for some of us along the route. My guess is that this change will end up being a wash or only a minor improvement over the long term. Either way only time will tell for certain. Just don't tell that to those pro-change people who insist on declaring a scheduling victory right from the start.


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## Anderson (May 20, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will *always* have to bear midnight arrivals and departures.
> ...


Counter on the food stall point: An existing operator (to pull the one operator in LAUS that I know of, Starbucks) could extend their hours of operation for a relatively small net cost (say, $40-50/day to operate for 2-3 more hours).


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## henryj (May 20, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I don't think this change was made to improve the SL's passenger numbers so much as it was made to keep from watching expensive hardware and well paid employees sitting around doing nothing for days on end due to an unresolved scheduling loophole. That's a perfectly reasonable goal of course, but it also comes with negative consequences for some of us along the route. My guess is that this change will end up being a wash or only a minor improvement over the long term. Either way only time will tell for certain. Just don't tell that to those pro-change people who insist on declaring a scheduling victory right from the start.


Other than daily service, this change almost exactly follows the Amtrak Performance Improvement Plan, PRIIA Section 210, issued in 2010. Apparently you never read it. Now if we can get that Phoenix connection.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222

Schedule Changes

The new schedule in Los Angeles will enable

better connections with the Coast Starlight.

Along with reductions in San Antonio layover

time, the new route gives customers much better

arrival and departure times in key cities.

Amtrak’s Market Research & Analysis Group

estimates that these changes will drive higher

ridership in these cities.

Layover Impact

The new service will vastly improve San

Antonio layovers for through

passengers. The most dramatic

reductions will be for passengers

traveling between Los Angeles and

Chicago, with trip times falling by 9 and

5 hours for eastbound and westbound

travelers respectively.

Customer Satisfaction Index


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## guest employee (May 20, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will *always* have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.


Bravo. And let's also not forget that there ARE Metrolink trains departing and arriving by that hour!! It's not as if the station were abandoned.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 20, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Counter on the food stall point: An existing operator (to pull the one operator in LAUS that I know of, Starbucks) could extend their hours of operation for a relatively small net cost (say, $40-50/day to operate for 2-3 more hours).


I agree that would be much more workable.



henryj said:


> Other than daily service, this change almost exactly follows the Amtrak Performance Improvement Plan, PRIIA Section 210, issued in 2010. Apparently you never read it. Now if we can get that Phoenix connection.


 I would have been more supportive of this move if it came with daily service. At least in that case I would have more days with which to try and make the hours work. But we all know that's not going to happen, right? A change like that would require more money than Amtrak currently has on hand or is likely to have in the future. And without daily service I wouldn't be expecting any other developments like a return of the Phoenix connection or the Maricopa shuttle.


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## Anderson (May 20, 2012)

guest employee said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will *always* have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.
> ...


I'd like to make a note: It's not that the trains would need to sit on a siding; you'd just need to have a second (or third) train on the route displaced from the main train by a certain number of hours. For example, take the Sunset: SAS could have decent times if you had both a morning train and an evening train out of NOL (the exact timing would come down to "how much do you want to shoot for Houston"). A late NOL departure could even, arguably, be timed to allow same-day connections with the CONO/Crescent WB (though EB you'd probably need an "obnoxious hour" arrival to allow that). Not that there's necessarily either the business to make that happen or the cooperation from UP to allow it, but the point remains...the problem is, in no small part, a frequency issue rather than a timing issue.


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## johnny.menhennet (May 21, 2012)

Looks like yesterday's #1 is set for yet another 4:30 arrival.


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 21, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Looks like yesterday's #1 is set for yet another 4:30 arrival.



And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.

Even if the sound of other passengers disembarking wakes you, you can at least lie still and close your eyes and get additional rest if not actual sleep.

There used to be dozens of cases like this all over the country as I noted early on in this post.

Really long distances trains and buses, unlike airlines, cannot usually be convenient everywhere. If only there were the funds and capability to run more trains on the same route, as often happened in the past,it would help.


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## George Harris (May 21, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Australia's situation is a bit more of a mess because of all the gauge breaks.


Australia's guage breaks are not really that big an issue now. The full route between Sydney and Perth is all standard gauge. Likewise, there is a standard gauge line parallel to the broad gauge line between the Victoria state border and Melbourne, and a standard gauge line from Sydney north to Brisbane. Even without the change of gauge, a through train from Sydney to points north of Brisbane would be somewhat unlikely.


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## jphjaxfl (May 21, 2012)

Even some very short train routes had set out sleepers. A number of cities on the NEC had such sleepers. I think Philadelphia to Baltimore was one of shortest. Indianapolis to Louisville (111 miles ) was another very short Sleeping car route via the Interstate Railroad's Interurban line. The Sleeping car would board in Indy at 10pm, depart at 11pm connected to a regular coach interurban line car, go to Scottsburg (about 30 miles north of Louisville )was where the Sleeper was disconnected and sat on a siding until 6am, was hooked onto a regular coach interurban train and arrived in downtown Louisville before 7am. This allowed traveling salesman to have a bed for the night and save the cost of a hotel room.


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## stntylr (May 21, 2012)

Just bought a ticket this morning for LAX on the SL. My trip's in August, I have a connection to San Diego from LAX. I'll see how it goes.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 21, 2012)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.


That's fine for the tiny minority of passengers arriving in a sleeper compartment. Not sure how that helps the other 80-90% of passengers.



Bill Haithcoat said:


> Really long distances trains and buses, unlike airlines, cannot usually be convenient everywhere. If only there were the funds and capability to run more trains on the same route, as often happened in the past,it would help.


Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.


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## haolerider (May 21, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.
> ...


I don't know what you mean by "do nothing spoiler attitude". I know Amtrak has been working on modifying the Sunset schedule to solve other issues and the end result was an early arrival into LA. As others have said, if there are no facilities open, I am sure some aggressive owner will find a way to service the passengers. As it has been said many times.......the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night! it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me, but you can't please everyone!, I sure wouldn't let it stop me from taking the Sunset.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 21, 2012)

haolerider said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.
> ...


That remark is not aimed at Amtrak. I don't expect Amtrak to pull new services out of an empty budget. Nor do I expect Amtrak to make $750,000,000 suddenly materialize out of thin air just so they can hand it over to the nearest freight troll in exchange for a one time change to a once-a-day interruption. I *do* expect the richest country on earth to avoid falling further and further behind more and more passenger rail services of far less wealthy countries. But maybe that's just me? After watching virtually every American HSR project implode like clockwork I think it's clear what sort of era we live in at this point. Union Pacific's NIMBY-style GFY offer is just icing on the cake at this point.



haolerider said:


> As others have said, if there are no facilities open, I am sure some aggressive owner will find a way to service the passengers.


 Service how exactly? Baggage and clean beds or burnt coffee and day old scones?


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## haolerider (May 21, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


Look on the bright side......trains are running, ridership is up, but this country is still an automobile centric society. Will things change, maybe and maybe not, but I subscribe to the positive side of things.

As far as servicing passengers, I guess if you expect burnt coffee and day old scones, that is probably what you will get. It may take awhile, but I am sure someone will provide baggage service and maybe even good coffee and twice baked crossiants! If the free market system works, it will happen. Now, it may take Amtrak longer to get the baggage service worked out, but it will happen.


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## henryj (May 21, 2012)

Somebody named TS is really upset. I guess Amtrak should consult him first next time it wants to make any changes. lol. Meanwhile, I am loving the new schedule and already planning my next trip.


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## Rail Freak (May 21, 2012)

TS has been upset since May 24 2010!!! :wacko:


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## Devil's Advocate (May 21, 2012)

haolerider said:


> Look on the bright side......trains are running, ridership is up, but this country is still an automobile centric society. Will things change, maybe and maybe not, but I subscribe to the positive side of things.


So the bright side basically involves acknowledging the irony of watching ridership records being broken while budgets are being slashed?



haolerider said:


> As far as servicing passengers, I guess if you expect burnt coffee and day old scones, that is probably what you will get.


I also expect modern cutting-edge passenger rail in the world's richest country. Does your theory about self-fulfilling expectations only work in one direction?



haolerider said:


> It may take awhile, but I am sure someone will provide baggage service and maybe even good coffee and twice baked crossiants! If the free market system works, it will happen.


I live a couple hours away from a country that followed America's free market advice and ended up with no passenger trains at all. The freest market of our era is arguably in Nigeria. I understand that Nigeria has the very best infrastructure doing absolutely nothing can buy.



Rail Freak said:


> TS has been upset since May 24 2010!!! :wacko:


More like 1981. :lol:


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## Texan Eagle (May 21, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I also expect modern cutting-edge passenger rail in the *world's richest country*. Does your theory about self-fulfilling expectations only work in one direction?


Isn't Qatar quite small? Why do they need cutting-edge passenger rail?


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## stntylr (May 21, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I also expect modern cutting-edge passenger rail in the *world's richest country*. Does your theory about self-fulfilling expectations only work in one direction?
> ...


I've been to Qatar and I saw lot's of sand but no trains.


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## guest (May 21, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I also expect modern cutting-edge passenger rail in the *world's richest country*. Does your theory about self-fulfilling expectations only work in one direction?
> ...


On a GDP-per-capita basis, it's probably Germany...


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## henryj (May 21, 2012)

Union Station Food Establishments

La Famina Convenience Store — open 24 hours

Starbucks — open 4:30 AM

Subway — open 5 AM

Los Angeles MTA Building (south end of loading tunnel and up the stairs) Cafeteria — open 6:30 AM

Metropolitan Water District Cafeteria (west of Amtrak ticket counter) – open 6:30 AM

Area Food Establishments

Philippe, “the Original” Restaurant – open 6 AM

1001 N. Alameda

Connecting Transportation

LAX Flyway Bus (south end loading tunnel) departures at 4 am, 5 am and then starting at 5:50 AM every twenty minutes

LAMTA Gold Line — service begins at 3:40 AM

LAMTA Red Line – service begins at 4:30 AM


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## Anderson (May 22, 2012)

guest said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


I think Liechtenstein or Luxembourg often shows up on these lists.

As to the "freest" economy in the world...try Somalia (or, an attempt to turn the Rift Valley into Galt's Gulch).

And henry: Thanks for the info on who opens when...I didn't know what the hours were on various places, but from the chatter I'd seen here it seemed like a lot of places might open around 6 AM or thereabouts.

And...does the Gold Line even close for the night?


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I think Liechtenstein or Luxembourg often shows up on these lists.


You're going to need large scale wealth to build major public works projects such as thousands of miles of modern passenger rail. You're also going to want a large and mobile population to make it worthwhile. Per capita wealth would be a erroneous measurement in this context. Nobody expects some tiny emirate to build major mass transit projects connecting sparsely inhabited sand dunes. Well, except some wise cracking comedian who apparently traveled thousands of miles in the _wrong_ direction on his way to the promised land. 



Anderson said:


> As to the "freest" economy in the world...try Somalia.


I'd be hard pressed to call what Somalia has a functioning economy, at least in the modern sense of the word.



Anderson said:


> And henry: Thanks for the info on who opens when.


When I did some searching of my own I did not come up with the same times Henry did. I think the real test will be what we hear from folks who make the trip themselves. :mellow:


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## henryj (May 22, 2012)

TS that info come from RailPAC. I assume they know since they are out there. Next trip someone makes they can verify for us.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2012)

henryj said:


> TS that info come from RailPAC. I assume they know since they are out there. Next trip someone makes they can verify for us.


Agreed.

We can search and speculate all day long, but in the end all that really matters are what is actually happening on the ground. We should have a much better idea of how this change is working (or not working) by looking over the next several months worth of passenger loads. In any case it's hard to argue that having an extra train set available for other routes is a bad thing. Even if the route specific loads remain relatively unchanged having an extra train set available for service should help out system wide passenger loads.

Does anyone know what Amtrak is doing or planning to do with the extra set? For instance, is it being added to another route? Is it simply being broken up and mixed in with the rest of the fleet? Is it being held for emergency replacement use after the next commercial vehicle from _Ma & Pa Truckin' Co._ takes out another train set?


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## lthanlon (May 22, 2012)

Thanks for the info about LAX-area restaurants. Will be useful.


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## colobok (May 22, 2012)

haolerider said:


> the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night! it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me, but you can't please everyone!


I wonder - why wouldn't Amtrak stop SL a station or two before LAX for a couple of hours to let everybody sleep well and then proceed to LAX in a better time (around 7am)?


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## stntylr (May 22, 2012)

colobok said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night! it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me, but you can't please everyone!
> ...


I imagine most passengers and on board staff would rather get to where they're going than sit on a siding for two hours so the sleeping car passengers can get more sleep.


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## Anderson (May 22, 2012)

colobok said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night! it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me, but you can't please everyone!
> ...


Part of it likely has to do with a combination of equipment turning schedules and the fact that SP probably does _not_ want Amtrak blocking up a siding. Not that they might not be able to find a siding somewhere in the LA Metro area...

And of course, there's always the fact that, a _very_ few exceptions, Amtrak tries _not_ to 'slow run' a train where they can avoid it.


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## colobok (May 22, 2012)

stntylr said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> > haolerider said:
> ...


I bet most of passengers will prefer to have a good non-interrupted sleep in their coaches or sleepers rather than being woke up at 4am and then trying to sleep again somewhere inside LAX station.


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## Ispolkom (May 22, 2012)

colobok said:


> I bet most of passengers will prefer to have a good non-interrupted sleep in their coaches or sleepers rather than being woke up at 4am and then trying to sleep again somewhere inside LAX station.


And think what it would do to On-Time Performance to sit for two hours just before arrival.

I'm confused, though, about your reference to sleepers. Sleeper passengers won't be woken up until 6:30. Says so on the timetable.


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## The Davy Crockett (May 22, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> I'm confused, though, about your reference to sleepers. Sleeper passengers won't be woken up until 6:30. Says so on the timetable.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Good one!


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2012)

colobok said:


> I wonder - why wouldn't Amtrak stop SL a station or two before LAX for a couple of hours to let everybody sleep well and then proceed to LAX in a better time (around 7am)?


Seems like they might be able to use Palm Springs starting at 2AM or Ontario starting starting at 4AM, assuming the train is on-time. None of the coach cars I've been on or through were a beehive of motivated activity at those times. Mostly just a bunch of snoring and drooling so far as I could tell.



stntylr said:


> I imagine most passengers and on board staff would rather get to where they're going than sit on a siding for two hours so the sleeping car passengers can get more sleep.


We're talking about the Sunset Limited, right? The train that operates 43% of a daily train's schedule and takes longer than _any other form of motorized transportation_ on those rare days when it _does_ run? Even the beat-up Mexican buses with the limping mechanical parts and belching exhaust systems are faster than taking the Sunset Limited. If these people were so worried about "getting where they're going" that they're already up and packing at four in the morning you'd think they'd pick a faster method of travel that runs more often than three times a week.



Ispolkom said:


> And think what it would do to On-Time Performance to sit for two hours just before arrival.


So you're asking what two _*additional*_ hours of padding would do to on-time performance? Am I missing something? :blink:



Ispolkom said:


> I'm confused, though, about your reference to sleepers. Sleeper passengers won't be woken up until 6:30. Says so on the timetable.


That must be the quietest arrival in the entire system then. Or maybe it will simply remain the same as always and be _noisy as hell_.


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## stntylr (May 22, 2012)

colobok said:


> stntylr said:
> 
> 
> > colobok said:
> ...


You forget that a good number of passengers will be coming from the Central Time Zone so it's really not's so early for them.

Last year I spent 5 straight nights in coach and I don't remember it being the Comfort Inn.

This summer I'm taking a break and will only spend 4 straight nights in coach and one of those nights will be on the SL arriving into LA. I will ask the passengers what they think about the early arrival time. I might even make a video of the arrival and post it to this thread.


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## greatcats (May 23, 2012)

The way I understand what the timetable for the Sunset says is that sleeper passengers are welcome to stay until 6:30am, not that they would be awakened at that time. I would think everyone would need to be awakened by 6 to get ready to leave by 6:30.


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## henryj (May 23, 2012)

Unfortunately, because of the way we run LD trains now days, there is a huge amount of padding built into the schedules. Pomona to LA is 31 miles and the schedule allows an hour and a half. Shriever to New Orleans is just 56 miles and the schedule allows over two and a half hours. Yesterday #2 arrived in NOL at 8:18pm, one hour and 22 minutes early. Twice when I rode #1 west from Houston we arrived in SAS one hour early, and this after we stopped for fuel at Kirby. In the reverse direction, NOL to Shriever is one and a half hours and LA to Pomona is 41 minutes. We have seen the UP delays put the train hours late. Then we have seen them make up over three or more hours when the train was delayed. It all depends on the traffic out there on a given day. Dispatchers today have a tough job with all the traffic and congestion. We should be thankful we even have any LD trains. They all lose tons of money and most of the rest of the world has done away with them. Personally I consider them such a national asset that you could make a case for having the National Park Service run them.


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## Trogdor (May 23, 2012)

henryj said:


> Personally I consider them such a national asset that you could make a case for having the National Park Service run them.


I'm sure close to nobody at the National Park Service knows how to run a railroad, which is what Amtrak is.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 23, 2012)

henryj said:


> We should be thankful we even have any LD trains. They all lose tons of money and most of the rest of the world has done away with them.


Let's not forget that these decisions don't occur in a vacuum. Those countries that have done away with national passenger rail systems were often following the hypocritical advice of influential countries like the US and major lending organizations like the World Bank and IMF.



henryj said:


> Personally I consider them such a national asset that you could make a case for having the National Park Service run them.


Today's National Park Service is seeing their budgets slashed just like every other department and agency that doesn't involve the military and/or senior citizens in some way. They can barely maintain their current assets without the added burden of trying to run a national transit system.


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## The Davy Crockett (May 23, 2012)

henryj said:


> you could make a case for having the National Park Service run them.


Maybe, but that would do what Amtrak does a disservice. Amtrak does much more than what the National Park Service does. The NPS mission statement:



> On August 25, 1916, President
> 
> Woodrow Wilson signed the act
> 
> ...


For starters, Amtrak actually provides to the real transportation needs of millions of Americans every year. :excl:


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## haolerider (May 23, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > you could make a case for having the National Park Service run them.
> ...


I don't know the visitor numbers for the NPS, but I do know that they do an awful lot with very limited resources. The partnership between NPS and Amtrak, in the form of Trails & Rails would not be possible if it weren't for NPS and the volunteers who perform the service. Both organizations are being shortchanged in their budgets and attention paid to their missions. I would hate to see the total commercialiszation of our national parks, which, in my opinion would spell disaster!


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## henryj (May 24, 2012)

haolerider said:


> I don't know the visitor numbers for the NPS, but I do know that they do an awful lot with very limited resources. The partnership between NPS and Amtrak, in the form of Trails & Rails would not be possible if it weren't for NPS and the volunteers who perform the service.


LOL, amazing how quick some readers jump on a simple statement. I think haolerider is closer to my line of reasoning than anyone else. The NPS isn't going to take over operation of Amtrak or any of it's trains, so just forget about it.


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## GoldenSpike (May 24, 2012)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Oh but there is a huge history of "set out sleepers" in this country.It has not happened too much on Amtrak just because there are so fewer trains now than in the past.It has happened some under Amtrak like on the overnight NEC trains.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But I bet we could get used to it again, inasmuch as it was so common in the past


I could get used to it again!

Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.

We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX

segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for

dinner, etc,. which got us back late to our sleeper car. We slept-in since we didn't have to worry about

missing our train.

I don't recall what the sked was for the E/B.


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## George Harris (May 24, 2012)

GoldenSpike said:


> Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
> We had a sleeper WAS-NOL-LAX. We arrived NOL in the evening where our sleeper was set-out. The LAX
> 
> segment didn't leave until about 1 p.m. the next day. This gave us a chance to do the French Quarter thingy for
> ...


About the same or later arrival time, and very likely later than scheduled, as the Sunset has never been the posterchild for keeping schedule. The eastbound out of New Orleans also left fairly early in the morning.

Another thing: This was when the Crescent was still operated by Southern Railway, not by Amtrak.

The practice is no longer practical as the Crescent is single level and the Sunset is Superliner.


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## AlanB (May 24, 2012)

George Harris said:


> GoldenSpike said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
> ...


As I just noted in another post, Amtrak brought the Trans/Dorms for exactly this reason. Yes, they've rarely used them as intended and in fact for years didn't even sell the passenger rooms in the dorms to passengers, but the Trans/Dorm would permit Amtrak to do a set out Viewliner sleeper in NOL to be hooked onto the Sunset.

Right now of course the bigger problem is that Amtrak doesn't have enough Viewliners to do such a thing.


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## Anderson (May 24, 2012)

AlanB said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > GoldenSpike said:
> ...


If I'm being a mix of realistic and optimistic, my hope would be that (seeing as a dedicated Superliner sleeper order seems unlikely while it looks like Amtrak may have plenty of Superliner coaches to go around) Amtrak would be able to round up the cash to buy a lot of Viewliner sleepers and shift to split consists on the TE/SL _a la_ Santa Fe (i.e. single-level sleepers and bilevel coaches) so it could move most of the Superliner sleepers to trains where the revenue potentials are far higher.


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## GoldenSpike (May 25, 2012)

George Harris said:


> GoldenSpike said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak used to have a great sleeper set-out arrangement at NOL. IIRC it was during the late 1970's - early 1980's.
> ...


A blast from the past! Thanks. I completely forgot Southern RR had the route into NOL then. I assume then the sleeper must

have been a Pullman on the Amtrak leg because IIRC they didn't go out of business until the early 1980's (around the time of our trip).


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## jphjaxfl (May 25, 2012)

The Pullman Company ceased operation of Sleeping Cars operated December 31, 1968. Some of the railroads like Santa Fe, UP and SCL that still had quite a few Sleeping Car lines assumed operations of their Sleeping Cars until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak took over. Others like MoPac, KS and GM&O which had only 1 Sleeping Car line left ran Sleeperless trains until April 30, 1971. Southern operated their own Sleeping Cars from January 1,1969 until 1979 when Amtrak took over operations of the Crescent.


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## Anderson (May 25, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> The Pullman Company ceased operation of Sleeping Cars operated December 31, 1968. Some of the railroads like Santa Fe, UP and SCL that still had quite a few Sleeping Car lines assumed operations of their Sleeping Cars until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak took over. Others like MoPac, KS and GM&O which had only 1 Sleeping Car line left ran Sleeperless trains until April 30, 1971. Southern operated their own Sleeping Cars from January 1,1969 until 1979 when Amtrak took over operations of the Crescent.


I'd wondered about that. I knew that Pullman went into bankruptcy in the late 1960s, but bankruptcy didn't necessarily mean that it had ceased operating/liquidated.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 25, 2012)

I was just watching a video showing the last daylight departure of the East Bound Sunset Limited in Ontario, CA. Now I will admit I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, and if your feeling especially kind point to the page. Anyway, I feel like it was a year or two ago that these stations near LA on the Sunset route were pushing for more train service beyond the Sunset Limited. With this time change do you think that kills that notion?


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## Bob Dylan (May 25, 2012)

With the current Budget and Political Climate that exists in California and the Country, California would have to fund any such Trains and chances of this happening are Slim and None!

We can't get a daily Sunset/Eagle running so Im sure that this will remain the only Amtrak Train on this route in your Lifetime! <_< (and you're one of our youngest members! :lol: )


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 25, 2012)

The history of railroading is nothing without understanding that there were many changes. Routes, schedules, equipment, very little was written in stone.

For example, this transcon sleeper on the Crescent (and possibly the Piedmont Limited at times) and the Sunset Limited(and the Argonaut at times) has been known to operate Washington to LA, New York to LA and for a time, even with Amtrak.from Boston to LA. Wish I had ridden that.. Just like I wish I had ridden the Sunset from Miami to LA.

I am going to give the schedule from WAS to LA from a 1955 Southern timetable. You will note the schedule of the northbound Crescent was very different from today.Remember there is a long convoluted story about the Crescent, the Southerner, the Southern Crescenterc etc which would make this much more complicated than it needs to be. And nothing was written in stone, rather things changed often through the years.

Here it goes Westbound DAILY

lv WAS 6.10 pm Sunday

ar NOL 6.55 pm Monday

lv NOL 11.45pm Monday(Sunset Ltd sleepers originating in NOL could be boarded at 10.00pm)

ar LA 4.15 pm Wednesday

Eastbound DAILY

lv LA 8 pm Sunday

ar NOL 4 pm Tuesday

lv NOL 11 pm Tuesday (sleepers originating in NOL could be boarded at 10 pm}

ar WAS 4.15 am Thursday, may be occupied until 7.30 am

I guess this sleeper ran from WAS instead of NYC since there were other transcon routes all around, such as NYC to LA via Chicago.

Some may notice that the northbound Crescent took two nights.That is correct. It was the Southerner which only took one night back then northbound. As I stress,nothing is written in stone.

_


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## George Harris (May 26, 2012)

In the 1950's and early to mid 60's, the Crescent was scheduled to arrive at 8:00am at Atlanta southbound and New York City northbound. The northbound train therefore left New Orleans late at night, arrived at Montgomery AL in the morning and left Atlanta about 1:45 in the afternoon. Between Atlanta and Washington the Crescent was Pullman only up to the time the Augusta (and Asheville?) Specials were combined with it. After that it was still had no coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta. If you were in coach northbound you had to change to another train (The Peach Queen?) at Atlanta. The Crescent was Southern's top train for most of its life, but it was not Southern all the way. From Atlanta south in ran on lines that are now all CSX, West Point Route between Atlanta and Montgomery and Louisville and Nashville between Montgomery and New Orleans. Beginning somewhere in the early 60's, the northbound Crescent was combined with the L&N's Pan American between New Orleans and Montgomery.

North of Atlanta the Crescent was a far larger train than it was south of Atlanta. The Crescent had more than one drop off sleeper northbound in Washington.

The Southerner came along later. I do not know the history well enough to lay it out, but Mr. Haithcoat probably does. It was Southern Railway System all the way. Its schedule has been fairly close to the current Crescent schedule for most of its life to the best of my knowledge.

Like the Crescent, the Southerner was a much larger train north of Atlanta than it was south of Atlanta.

For a brief period toward the end of the 1960's the Southerner and the Crescent were combined southbound. The Crescent and Peach Queen, if I have identified it right, were combined northbound.

* * * * *

Note that in the 50's the Sunset Limited left New Orleans late evening and arrived Los Angeles in mid-afternoon. The change to afternoon departure from New Orleans and early morning arrival in Los Angeles came with its combination with the Golden State west of El Paso. (The Golden State was the Rock Island - Southern Pacific answer to the AT&SF's Super Chief. A considerably faster schedule was in the plan immediately post WW2 but died due to the ICC's 1947 order requiring ATC or ATS in order to run 80 mph or faster. Equipping the relatively low volume lines between Herrington KS and El Paso just was not economically feasible.)


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## The Davy Crockett (May 26, 2012)

Bill & George: Great Stuff! Thanks! :hi:


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 26, 2012)

George Harris said:


> In the 1950's and early to mid 60's, the Crescent was scheduled to arrive at 8:00am at Atlanta southbound and New York City northbound. The northbound train therefore left New Orleans late at night, arrived at Montgomery AL in the morning and left Atlanta about 1:45 in the afternoon. Between Atlanta and Washington the Crescent was Pullman only up to the time the Augusta (and Asheville?) Specials were combined with it. After that it was still had no coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta. If you were in coach northbound you had to change to another train (The Peach Queen?) at Atlanta. The Crescent was Southern's top train for most of its life, but it was not Southern all the way. From Atlanta south in ran on lines that are now all CSX, West Point Route between Atlanta and Montgomery and Louisville and Nashville between Montgomery and New Orleans. Beginning somewhere in the early 60's, the northbound Crescent was combined with the L&N's Pan American between New Orleans and Montgomery.
> 
> North of Atlanta the Crescent was a far larger train than it was south of Atlanta. The Crescent had more than one drop off sleeper northbound in Washington.
> 
> ...


Thanks George. Yes, you are correct about the Peach Queen.

And thanks for pointing out trains being longer north of Atlanta. I have pointed that out through the years.The explanation is so simple---more population.

The Southerner began in 1941 as a streamlined diesel powered train with a one night out schedule in both directions. Sleepers were added about 1950.but they did not go any further south than Birmingham. It had the same route as the Crescent does today.

At the same time the Crescent was requipped as a streamliner. The Crescent southbound schedule was one night out and close to the Southerner schedule.

All the trains we are talking about were operated by the Pennsylvania RR between New York and Washington.

Some may wonder what the "Southern Crescent" was. It was a merging of the two streamliners into one. The name "Southern" was meant to remind us of the Southerner but everybody forgot all about the Southerner

The new combined train had the route of the Southerner since the Crescent's route still had another train, the Piedmont Limited. The schedule of the Southerner was kept. The best equipment from each was used including that Cresdent mid train sleeper lounge which had a shower in the master room. For the first time ever there were both through coaches and through sleepers all the way from NYC to NOL on the same train.

When Amtrak took over in 1979, the name "Southern" was dropped and we are left with a train which was actually more like the former Southerner than the former Crescent.


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## George Harris (May 26, 2012)

Bill, I beg to differ on one thing. I am reasonably sure the Southerner had sleepers through to New Orleans by the early 60's.


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## Anderson (May 26, 2012)

Long Train Runnin said:


> I was just watching a video showing the last daylight departure of the East Bound Sunset Limited in Ontario, CA. Now I will admit I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, and if your feeling especially kind point to the page. Anyway, I feel like it was a year or two ago that these stations near LA on the Sunset route were pushing for more train service beyond the Sunset Limited. With this time change do you think that kills that notion?


The question is whether you're talking about an LD train or a corridor train. For example, a Los Angeles-Palm Springs/Indio train might have a case made for it as a 2-3 hour corridor run (and something like that could _probably_ be run twice-daily with a single equipment set or be paired with a duo of LAX-terminating Surfliners...also, in bad traffic, the train _would_ be driving time competitive)...but something longer than that would likely have far more trouble unless AZ were to _really_ warm up to the idea of passenger rail (and even then, you'd probably be looking at a _Hoosier State_-esque "fill-in" train from AZ to LA).

I don't think the time change kills the notion of adding service there in the longer run; if anything, it would seem to reinforce it given that it moves the Sunset to _bad_ times for those trips (2 AM-5:30 AM and 10 PM/12:30 AM aren't exactly reasonable hours); the presence of a twice daily rail-bus connection on the Ontario-Palm Springs run would seem to reinforce this (especially as a twice-daily train would allow the bus to be truncated at either Ontario or LAX).

Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).


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## russianrail (May 26, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).



Having been looking at this for some friends who are trying to get down to Temecula, CA (even worse off then Palm Springs for decent connections), the issue (problem?) is that all of the Palm Springs Ambuses run out of Bakersfield. The only way to connect to LAX is to change at San Bernadino for Metrolink. I would be curious to hear some of the history here, but clearly Amtrak is not serving the market from this area south-east of LAX into the LAX area. The only Amtrak connections that you can do are to/from the San Joaquines.


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## Sactobob (May 26, 2012)

russianrail said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Also...for some reason, Amtrak.com doesn't want to allow me to book tickets to/from Palm Springs, CA (though it offers a lot of bus stops in the area).
> ...


In addition to the Thruway connections from the San Joaquins which have been running for many years, Thruway connections to Palm Springs from Fullerton (connecting from Surfliners) have been added in recent months.


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 26, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Bill, I beg to differ on one thing. I am reasonably sure the Southerner had sleepers through to New Orleans by the early 60's.


You are right, George.


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## rogerVarland (Feb 22, 2016)

Since the last post here was almost 4 years ago, I'm wondering if anyone has recent experience with staying in their room after an early arrival? I'm scheduled for two weeks from now and wondering what the odds are of convincing the SCA to abide by the footnote in the timetable? I'll compromise at 6:00, but 4:30?


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## Palmetto (Feb 22, 2016)

Two things: the train arrives LA at 5:35 AM [PST]. I can't find a statement on the timetable allowing occupancy until 6:00 AM. Is that the situation these days?


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## rogerVarland (Feb 22, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Two things: the train arrives LA at 5:35 AM [PST]. I can't find a statement on the timetable allowing occupancy until 6:00 AM. Is that the situation these days?


Agreed, the timetable states 5:35a, but it's not uncommon to arrive somewhat early, as it did this morning at 4:30. Perhaps more significantly, you're correct in that the timetable no longer contains the statement welcoming sleeping car passengers to occupy their rooms until 6:30. It was in the 2015 national timetable, but now seems to have disappeared in both the national edition and the route specific listings. Maybe a call to HQ can enlighten me . . . .


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 22, 2016)

Now that the Metro Lounge opens @ 530am, its not such a hassle to arrive into LAX in the wee hours as the City of Angels sleeps.

You'll usually hit the stops about 5-530am but if you're not a sound Sleeper you'll probably wakeup by the Pomona stop as people stir/detrain and the SCA starts trying to prepare the car for arrival into LAX.

And Philippe opens for Breakfast @ 6am, so head for the Lounge,grab a coffee,( forget Starbucks/ it's free) stash your stuff and then stroll up the street for a great breakfast!


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## Palmetto (Feb 22, 2016)

Roger's point is well taken: the train arrived in LA at about 4:30, and one could argue that a person's body is still on Mountain Time, making it feel like 3:30 AM. Either way, it's a god-awful time to get out of bed. And if the train is as early as it was today, what does one do for the hour prior to the opening of the Lounge, and worse--the one and a half hours before Philippe opens to get something to eat? 

With the downturn in freight traffic, most of the Amtrak trains are being dispatched much more quickly by the railroads. It seems as if a schedule adjustment might be in order for this train. I'll let the schedule gurus on here wrestle with that.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 22, 2016)

Amtrak's godawful calling times in SAS and LAUS are two of the primary reasons I no longer ride the Sunset Limited on a regular basis. For a while Amtrak tried to make a compromise by allowing sleeper passengers to remain in their rooms until the sun had a chance to come up. Then they decided even that was too much to ask. At this point everyone gets the boot as soon as the train arrives. If that happens to be the dead of night then it simply sucks to be you.


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## greatcats (Feb 22, 2016)

Downturn in freight traffic? Maybe so, and I certainly am not familiar with BNSF figures, but it would appear hard to believe this is the case with the number of lengthy freight trains passing through Flagstaff each day.


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## caravanman (Feb 22, 2016)

One of the features of the City Night Line trains in Europe is that they often stop for extended periods on certain routes, precisely so that passengers don't arrive too early in the mornings. I never noticed this myself, having slept through the halts.

Arriving early is probably such a novelty with Amtrak, that no one has thought of this solution. 

Ed.


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## Palmetto (Feb 23, 2016)

greatcats said:


> Downturn in freight traffic? Maybe so, and I certainly am not familiar with BNSF figures, but it would appear hard to believe this is the case with the number of lengthy freight trains passing through Flagstaff each day.


http://www.yardeni.com/pub/ECOINDRAILCAR.pdf

Draw your own conclusions.......


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## neroden (Feb 24, 2016)

Pretty clear that coal is way down. Everything else is doing OK.


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## chakk (Feb 24, 2016)

Arriving LA at 4:30 am will feel like 5:30 -- not 3:30 -- to the folks who went to bed on Arizona time in the winter. But in summer, Arizona and California share the same time.


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## Palmetto (Feb 24, 2016)

I thought twice about the time change thing before writing it, and still came up wrong. :angry:


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## willem (Feb 24, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> I thought twice about the time change thing before writing it, and still came up wrong.


Hey, I resemble that remark! In other words, I've done it too many times myself.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 24, 2016)

chakk said:


> Arriving LA at 4:30 am will feel like 5:30 -- not 3:30 -- to the folks who went to bed on Arizona time in the winter. But in summer, Arizona and California share the same time.


It really only matters what time the sun outside LA Union Station thinks it is. And maybe the muggers outside too.


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