# Rule change or try for a different agent?



## jb64 (Nov 2, 2012)

So, I just tried to book a 3 zone roomette from NYP to SEA via LSL, CZ, and CS. AGR agent said I could only go LSL to EB because "you have to go the most direct route". Last year I went to San Francisco via Card, SWC, and CS which was not the most direct route. Is this a new rule?

I told the agent that I didn't think that was true and she did offer to go ask her supervisor but I did not want my account flagged as someone trying to circumvent the rules so I said no, let me think it over and I will call back later. So, I hope the next agent I get gives me a different answer.

Has anyone else had this problem recently?


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 2, 2012)

Test Bookings show several Valid Routings from NYP>SEA including Regionals, CL, LSL and EB#27>Cascades/EB#7/SWC#3>CS#14/CZ#5>CS#14. Id call back and also Post on Flyer Talk and have the AGR Insider give you the Official Policy if any such Policy exists? :help: There may be a Memo or an Unofficial Policy that has the Agents being told to Book the EB or the most Direct Routing on AGR Awards but since it's AGR who really knows? :unsure:


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## Rail Freak (Nov 2, 2012)

You can book a 2 zone trip to ABQ & a 1 zone to your destination! Why these agents refuse to do this is beyond me!!! hboy:


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## Blackwolf (Nov 2, 2012)

Simply the agent making up rules. You can use any viable routing. If we had to take the most direct route, our trip from Buffalo to Sacramento last February would have had us connecting to the CZ in Chicago, instead of the EB and CZ.


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## the_traveler (Nov 2, 2012)

I think you meant EB and CS. There is no way to get from the EB to the CZ except via CHI along with an overnight stay! 

I agree that a 3 zone sleeper award cost the same as a 2 zone award plus a 1 zone award. So book a 2 zone award to DEN and then a 1 zone award from DEN to SEA. Problem solved! :excl:

In fact, last month I did something similar. I booked a 2 zone award from the east coast to ELP, then a 1 zone award from ELP to ABQ (via LAX) then a 2 zone award from ABQ to PHL. So I went coast to coast and back for 5 zones. (I did not stopover, and had the same room all the way from LAX to CHI on the SWC. I purposely changed rooms in ELP from the TE to the SL section - to reduce the walk to the Dining Car.)


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## crescent2 (Nov 2, 2012)

I've been told here that I can't book DEN to EMY (or DAV) on the CZ, and EMY (or DAV) to LAX on the CS, as one 1-zone AGR redemption. Your situation seems to be similar, so can, or can't, we? If we "can use any viable routing" as Blackwolf said, I don't understand why DEN to EMY (or DAV) to LAX wouldn't be one redemption. There is an overnight layover but only because the very next CS doesn't arrive there until the next morning.

I haven't phoned AGR because my points transfer hasn't gone through yet, so I currently don't have enough AGR in my account. I had decided to just pay the CS segment, but jb64's question and some of the replies that say it's been done before have me wondering.

Can someone clarify this so I will be a little more knowledgeable when I phone them? I've never used AGR before. Thanks!


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## the_traveler (Nov 2, 2012)

That is why you can't. An overnight is a stopover, and stopovers are not allowed on an AGR redemption.


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## roadman3313 (Nov 2, 2012)

The situation listed above includes routing from New York to Seattle via the Empire Builder or a connection in Los Angeles or Sacramento to the Coast Starlight. The catch is that none of those valid routings include an over night stop over at any of the connection points.

It is possible to get a lot of train travel on a single redemption... for example you could go from the Western Zone boundary on the Empire Builder to Portland and connect to the Coast Starlight to Sacramento/Davis and then connect to the CZ to Denver, CO all for a 1 Zone Redemption even though you are taking 3 LD trains, most likely using sleepers. So you are basically getting three train trips with sleepers all around for a one zone redemption. You could do the opposite direction as well as there would not be any overnight stop overs.

In turn, your proposed trip was from DEN to LAX via DAV. The CZ gets into DAV during the PM while the CS doesn't leave until the next morning. So you use the same amount of points if you take the CZ to DAV than if you took the CZ to Sac, the CS to Portland, and the EB to the zone boundary in the North.

With some clever planning you can get a lot of bang for your bucks (points) instead of just one trip on one train.

Again, the key is an overnight stop over... you can loop around and create different routing shapes around the country as long as it is a valid routing with no overnight stop overs. If it contains a stop over it is considered to be two seperate "trips" just as you would book them seperately online.

Just for reference the valid routing from DEN to LAX would be DEN -> RAT (Bus) -> LAX (SW). Alternatively one could also do DEN -> SAC (CZ) -> BFD (San Joaquin) -> LAX (Bus). This would could as two different redemptions as the San Joaquin is a different service type, Special Corridor redemption vs. Standard Redemption. So it would be a standard redemption from DEN-SAC on the CZ and a Special Corridor Redemption for SAC->LAX via BFD.

It may sound complicated but there are ways to minimize your redemptions. You just need to plug in the routing and see what comes up. Just use the overnight stop over as a rule of thumb.

As for the OP, I called this past week and worked on some routings and wasn't informed of the "most direct route" rule. Hopefully it is just the agent involved. I'd suggest calling back and see what the next agent says and let us know the findings. But the agent I spoke with was very nice and even entered the routing options to see if it would go through or not.


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## Ispolkom (Nov 2, 2012)

jb64 said:


> Is this a new rule?


How would we know if it's a new rule?



> Has anyone else had this problem recently?


Not recently, but I have had AGR agents make the same claim. Just wait a few hours/days, and call back. If you get the same answer again and again, maybe there is a new rule. I doubt it, though.

Remember, the sort of long-distance redemption that we make is a tiny, tiny fraction of AGR awards, and many agents aren't expert at booking them. IIRC, 90% of AGR awards are one-zone coach trips.


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## jb64 (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I will try again over the weekend and hope that I get a different answer. If I don't, I'll ask them to book the two zone to Denver and then the one zone from Denver to Seattle and see what they say. I'll report back after I find the time to try to call again.

Crescent, northbound coast starlight is an option from the Zephyr but southbound Coast Starlight to LAUS is not because of the aforementioned over night. That is the difference between our trips.


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## crescent2 (Nov 2, 2012)

OK, thanks!

So, if train A arrives at 6:00a and train B arrives at 8:00p, it's just a layover and ok for one redemption. But if the hours were at night, it's counted a stop-over, not a layover, and takes two redemptions? That doesn't seem quite right!


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## calwatch (Nov 3, 2012)

My experience is that it is easiest to book anything that pops up on the computer, when you do a regular fare-paid booking. If it doesn't pop up on ARROW it will give you problems. Sometimes an agent will book it, but more often, they won't.

I once met someone on the train who actually got a letter from AGR telling him to stop looking for loopholes in the system (he was primarily avoiding a second special redemption to go from Reno to Southern California, since the Reno bus is attached to the Capitol Corridor and not the San Joaquin). By the way, you can go from LA-Chicago via the CZ and San Joaquin, and it will not be an additional special redemption. The special redemption is a subset of the regular redemption, so I was able to do a LA-Sac-Chicago-New Orleans trip with a two zone redemption. (I would have tried for the EB but that single sleeper in Portland gets sold out easily.)


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## roadman3313 (Nov 3, 2012)

Interesting. I was just told that it would be two redemption's by two different agents. They stated redemption's are done by service type. Coach counts for regular coach class. Special Corridor is a different classification of redemption as it costs a different value and is for a different type of service. Again, it may come down to the agent but that was what was told about three weeks ago.


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## roadman3313 (Nov 3, 2012)

crescent2 said:


> OK, thanks!
> 
> So, if train A arrives at 6:00a and train B arrives at 8:00p, it's just a layover and ok for one redemption. But if the hours were at night, it's counted a stop-over, not a layover, and takes two redemptions? That doesn't seem quite right!


Interesting question... I just always assumed it was midnight similar to how the California Rail Pass works. That is why services are often scheduled at 11:59pm instead of midnight. At least in the case of the California Rail pass.

When I asked one time I was told it had to be a "natural connection." I just took that meant it should show in the system or be possible without having to in theory book a hotel for the night. I agree with calwatch that best way to check is to do a search online with the start and ending points. The trips that pop up for a paid trip are more often than not considered to be valid. The trips that don't or that require more manual entry or multi-city entry generally are the ones that cause the problems more often than not.


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## Ispolkom (Nov 3, 2012)

crescent2 said:


> OK, thanks!
> 
> So, if train A arrives at 6:00a and train B arrives at 8:00p, it's just a layover and ok for one redemption. But if the hours were at night, it's counted a stop-over, not a layover, and takes two redemptions? That doesn't seem quite right!


It's a waste of time to find rationality in AGR long-distance redemption rules. They are what they are, secret and subject to change without warning or notice.

We really aren't talking about rules as such, but ideas of what an agent will book. It doesn't matter what the actual rules, and it doesn't matter if what the agent says makes sense. Since we don't have access to the rules (though I am assured they exist), we have no recourse. Arguing that the policy doesn't make sense won't get you very far, at least in my experience.

On the other hand, Amtrak does give an enormous flexibility to booking long-distance awards. You can cancel reservations without penalty. When they increased prices on bedrooms, they gave several months warning. Most importantly, there are no capacity controls. American Airlines, for instance, has very clear and logical rules to their frequent flyer program, but I can't ever seem to find saver awards when I want to travel.

I've found that following *roadman3313*'s strategy pretty foolproof. If your routing pops up in the system, you'll usually not have any trouble booking it. You might be quoted a different price in AGR points than you think correct, but that's another matter.


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## crescent2 (Nov 3, 2012)

Actually, the routing does come up, as one of several choices, when I plug it in for a paid trip. This might have been using Multi-city, though, I don't recall. (I've done it too many times!) I can't click the reward tab because I don't currently have the needed points.

I'll try it under One-way and see if it's a choice. Thanks-


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## amamba (Nov 3, 2012)

When we say "pop up" that just means putting it on the website as two city pairs and seeing what amtrak.com spits out - NOT using multi-city.

NYP - SEA should be eligible to booked with either the connection in CHI to the EB or to SWC to the CS or CZ to the CS. Those are all three valid routings for a 3 zone trip.

I did the SWC to the CS two years ago and it was fabulous. I loved doing the CS for the full length of the route.


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## jb64 (Nov 4, 2012)

I called again this morning and got a very friendly agent who gladly booked the trip exactly like I wanted. This inconsistency in administering the program really is unfortunate. I guess the correct answer really is to hang up and try again until you get the answer that works as long as you think it is within the "rules".


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## the_traveler (Nov 4, 2012)

That's AGR for you! :wacko:


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