# Pope's visit to Philadelphia and Amtrak's 30th Street Station



## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 6, 2015)

Has anyone heard or read about any plans for the 30th Street Station during the Pope's visit to Philly?

I have read lots about SEPTA, rail, and highways, streets, and bridges, but could not find a word about the Amtrak station.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 6, 2015)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Has anyone heard or read about any plans for the 30th Street Station during the Pope's visit to Philly?
> 
> I have read lots about SEPTA, rail, and highways, streets, and bridges, but could not find a word about the Amtrak station.


A couple of SEPTA rail lines will be terminating at 30th Street and Amtrak is selling tickets to and from 30th Street, so it appears the station will be open. Local travel to and from 30th Street will be challenging with no auto access and very limited SEPTA transit access.

This event has the stench of fiasco all over it. Interstates closed, major bridge closed, huge area of the city closed to cars (isolating multiple hospitals and all their workers). SEPTA limiting rail service to a very few outlying stations, each serving only one center city station, and all requiring advance-purchased special passes to ride (regular monthly passes invalid, regular tickets and tokens invalid). Those arriving by charter bus will be dropped in New Jersey(!) and will have to walk four miles to get to the events (including a nice hill-climb over the Ben Franklin Bridge). How are hotels, restaurants and the other services needed for the visiting throngs supposed to operate if their employees can't get to work and supplies can't be delivered? Several hospitals have already told employees from doctors to janitors to be prepared to sleep over at the hospital that weekend.

Even by Philly standards, this is totally nuts. My opinion is that Philadelphia will be a very good place to avoid that weekend. There are some who think that is always true.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 6, 2015)

I agree Bill. Glad I don't live/work up there.


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## neroden (Aug 6, 2015)

(1) Do not visit Philadelphia during this fiasco.

(2) If you live in, or even near, Philadelphia, this would be a great weekend to take a vacation.

(3) Anyone who can't get off of work is basically hosed. Their employers *should* let them off of work because they can't *get to* work.

(4) Employees of places like hospitals will undoubtedly be sleeping in the hospital for three nights minimum.

(5) As a result of all of this, I expect most of the restaurants and hotels to be closed, and the remainder to be horrendously short-staffed. It'll be a disaster!


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 6, 2015)

Philadelphia seems to be "over planning" for this event. I don't think they will be getting the big crowds that are anticipated. People will say, "I'm not getting involved in this mess." There are way too may restrictions being put in place.

Chicago hosted Pope John Paul II during Jane Byrne's administration as mayor and the whole city didn't shut down.

Philadelphia is either headed for a disaster or will be a laughing stock when only a few thousand people show up.


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## Carolina Special (Aug 6, 2015)

There was a Papal visit to Columbia, S.C. in 1987. The media spent weeks alerting the populace of the crowds expected to be lining the routes and how everyone would be better off staying home and watching on TV.

So when the Popemobile rolled through everyone was watching at home, and there were very few people along the parade routes. It was very embarrassing. The Pope was met by an enthusiastic crowd of university students at the Horseshoe, so the media chose to focus on that instead of the parade fiasco.

There are a lot more Catholics around Philadelphia than there were in SC, but I can visualize the same scenario happening here.


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## Acela150 (Aug 6, 2015)

neroden said:


> (1) Do not visit Philadelphia during this fiasco.
> 
> (2) If you live in, or even near, Philadelphia, this would be a great weekend to take a vacation.
> 
> ...


1-4 = You're preaching to the choir here....

5- Some restaurants will be closing..

Why would hotels close? People are coming from all over to see this happen. Where they going to sleep? The streets?


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## PRR 60 (Aug 6, 2015)

Acela150 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > (1) Do not visit Philadelphia during this fiasco.
> ...


The proper question is how will the major center city hotels possibly be staffed? How does the housekeeping staff get there? How do the kitchen, front desk and maintenance staff get there? Hotels are very labor intensive operations, the properties will be full, and they have no idea how staff is going to get to work.

The Secret Service says details of the security plan will not be announced until three weeks prior to the event. That should be a very interesting announcement.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 7, 2015)

The hotel I always stay at in Philly (a mid-range chain hotel in Center City) is booked solid that Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Last time I was down there, I was talking to the man who works in the room where they keep your luggage. He said he will be setting up a cot in the luggage room! The staff will be setting up cots, and the hotel will feed the staff.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 7, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> The proper question is how will the major center city hotels possibly be staffed? How does the housekeeping staff get there? How do the kitchen, front desk and maintenance staff get there? Hotels are very labor intensive operations, the properties will be full, and they have no idea how staff is going to get to work.


Good point.

For one example, I haven't seen SEPTA coming up with plans to reserving tickets, or even full trains, for workers to get in and out of their Philly jobs that day. I mean, workers not showing up for work that day, is going to be a major problem even for SEPTA itself.


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## neroden (Aug 7, 2015)

Shutting down the regular rail service is frankly nuts, and is going to cripple the city far more than SEPTA realizes. Combine this with shutting down the roads (which they are also doing), and workers simply will not be able to get to work.

Bicyclists are the only people who can get through this, but I don't think enough people own bicycles.


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## JoeBas (Aug 7, 2015)

neroden said:


> Shutting down the regular rail service is frankly nuts, and is going to cripple the city far more than SEPTA realizes. Combine this with shutting down the roads (which they are also doing), and workers simply will not be able to get to work.
> 
> Bicyclists are the only people who can get through this, but I don't think enough people own bicycles.


Not to mention bikes likely won't be allowed through the Green Zone checkpoints either.


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## Pastor Dave (Aug 7, 2015)

I can't speak definitively about how 30th St Station, but offer my prayers to anyone venturing into town. Luckily, I do not create as much fervor whenever I visit the city of Brotherly Love :mellow:


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## Acela150 (Aug 9, 2015)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > The proper question is how will the major center city hotels possibly be staffed? How does the housekeeping staff get there? How do the kitchen, front desk and maintenance staff get there? Hotels are very labor intensive operations, the properties will be full, and they have no idea how staff is going to get to work.
> ...


You clearly haven't been looking at Septic.com... They tried to sell "papal passes" for Regional Rail trains but that went crazy bad and they shut it down quickly and ended up doing a lottery.



neroden said:


> Shutting down the regular rail service is frankly nuts, and is going to cripple the city far more than SEPTA realizes. Combine this with shutting down the roads (which they are also doing), and workers simply will not be able to get to work.
> 
> Bicyclists are the only people who can get through this, but I don't think enough people own bicycles.


You clearly didn't see any of the 2008 Phillies World Series fiasco... On top of that plenty of people own a bike in Philly, it's a great city to use a bike to get around.



Pastor Dave said:


> I can't speak definitively about how 30th St Station, but offer my prayers to anyone venturing into town. Luckily, I do not create as much fervor whenever I visit the city of Brotherly Love :mellow:


PD, Great to hear from you!!!


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 9, 2015)

Steve, Bill meant reserved tickets or trains JUST for workers. The lottery was for anyone and probably aimed more at visitors than workers.

I'm sure Bill remembers the 2008 World Series, he is a local Phillies fan after all.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 9, 2015)

Acela150 said:


> You clearly haven't been looking at Septic.com... They tried to sell "papal passes" for Regional Rail trains but that went crazy bad and they shut it down quickly and ended up doing a lottery.


I certainly have, but apparently, you're having some problems in understanding my point.

SEPTA has no "non-papal passes", or any ticket lottery, for those who simply need to ride SEPTA to get to work that day, and have no interest in Francis.

I started this thread, because I was wondering/worried/concerned that Amtrak might be trying something similar (ie, restricting 30th Street Station travel). Apparently not, from the replies above. Amtrak plans to attempt to run 30th Street as if it was any other typical day.

I have to wonder how many people bought Amtrak tickets that involve the 30th Street Station, long before Francis bothered to announce his travel plans to Philly, and now have to deal with this ciaos. I mean, I typically buy my tickets almost a year ahead, out of habit for getting the lowest sleeper bucket, and 30th Street would be my departing/destination station.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 9, 2015)

From the newspaper (a few days ago--I just caught up with this, so you all may already have all this information, but here it is if you don't):

Timing on the bridge closure:

The nearly 2-mile-long Benjamin Franklin Bridge, which crosses the Delaware River and handles about 100,000 cars on a normal workday, will be closed to vehicles from 10 p.m. Friday, Sept. 25, to about noon Monday, Sept. 28. The bridge will remain open to pedestrians and PATCO Speed Line rail service will continue to run across the span.

Plus road info.:

Interstate 76, known in Philadelphia as the Schuylkill Expressway, and the Vine Street Expressway through downtown Philadelphia, will also close Friday, Sept. 25, along with a 2-mile portion of U.S. Route 1 near the seminary where Francis is expected to stay.[They have not decided when to reopen them.]

Interstate 95 will remain open to traffic, but some ramps will be closed.

What I find most amazing about this is that, at the same time they are bringing Philadelphia to a halt for the Pope's safety, they have announced, for anyone interested, where he is staying. Unless, of course, that is a decoy and he is staying somewhere else, which would actually be a sensible thing to do. Also, they say he is visiting New York and Washington on the same trip, but there hasn't been a word about safety measures in those places. The whole situation is just plain weird.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 9, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> From the newspaper (a few days ago--I just caught up with this, so you all may already have all this information, but here it is if you don't):
> 
> Timing on the bridge closure:
> 
> ...


I think his visits to NYC and Washington are "private" whereas the visit to Philly is public, including at least one Mass.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 9, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > From the newspaper (a few days ago--I just caught up with this, so you all may already have all this information, but here it is if you don't):
> ...


Oh, I see. That makes sense then--thanks.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 9, 2015)

The Pope is a head of State ,( Vatican City,) and will receive the same Security any visiting Head of State gets in the US, including our President!

I would think giving out where he is staying is a decoy unless he's staying with the Vaticans Rep to the US in WAS!

If he's going to WAS, unless it's an Official State Visit as was said, he probably won't be meeting with the President!

Of course New York has an official Cardinals/Archbishops Mansion which is probably where he'll stay if spending any time there!

He may even do an unannounced Mass in St.Patricks since Priests are required to say a daily Mass IINM ?


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## Acela150 (Aug 9, 2015)

Jim, it's well known where he will be put up in Philly. At least around here.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 9, 2015)

Once again, these outlandish preparations seem nuts. As far as I remember, the pope's visit to Chicago (in 1979) didn't cause mass shutdowns of roads and transit - and his visit also included an outdoor mass. The only shut downs were when he traveled, such as closing the Kennedy Expressway for the trip from O'Hare to downtown, but this is something that is done when the president is in town. It's inconvenient, but it doesn't shut down everything for three days. I believe the pope stayed at the cardinal's mansion in the Lincoln Park area.

Maybe Chicago is able to handle bigger events, but Philly isn't some little town, it's one of the nation's biggest cities. This is taking cautious planning to the extreme.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 9, 2015)

Nailed it Mike,!


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## NorthShore (Aug 9, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> I believe the pope stayed at the cardinal's mansion in the Lincoln Park area.


And while, I imagine, neighboring North Ave would have been closed to traffic between Clark and Lake Shore Drive, I'd doubt either of those thoroughfares or the transit which operates upon the roads was shut down, save for motorcades.
Shucks, so many people showed up standing around and chanting at the Archbishop's mansion that the pope had to come out onto the balcony and tell them to go to sleep!


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 9, 2015)

I hope there will be enough staff to man the food court for the extra crews that are stuck there.


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## northnorthwest (Aug 10, 2015)

I thought about not bothering to reply to this, because I am sure I will be attacked, but I don't care. For those of you who hate Philly or hate American cities or whatever it is, that's fine. Stay away. But you don't have to bring your negative attitude to the rest of us.

Philadelphia is a fantastic city with great food, people, parks, museums, orchestra, theater, neighborhoods, and on and on. If you hate it or have all these bad opinions about it, well, that is just your loss. Sorry to be you.

I will be in Philly to see the Pope during this "fiasco", and it will be a fantastic positive experience, and nobody there is going to miss anyone on here who hates Philly or its people. I hope you have an ordinary, uninspiring, mall food court-filled, suburban weekend, with lots of your own traffic, and where you never have to bother to interact with anyone you don't already know.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 10, 2015)

We totally agree about Philly being a Great Place, we had our AU Gathering there 3 years ago and lots of our members Live And Visit there often! I don't recall ever seeing a Philly hater on this Forum!

Our concern is the un-necessary over planning that will disrupt the daily lives of several million people that have to work during this time!

Many of us have been in cities where Popes and Presidents visit and None have had a "plan" so over done as this fiasco!

Hope you enjoy your visit along with the throngs that come to the City of Brotherly Love. Well be back to visit but not during this Circus! YMMV


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 11, 2015)

northnorthwest,

I live in rural south Jersey, and I love Philly, the city nearest to where I live. Philadelphia is like a huge small town, with friendly people, green spaces, and good buses and regional rail. I often go down there just for the day, and sometimes, if hotel rates are good, I even stay over for a day or two.

It is those of us who love Philly so much who are so worried about the negative image it may get from all this overplanning (not the city's fault, as far as I can tell--they are being told what to do by the secret service).

I do hope you and everyone there during the Pope's visit have a wonderful time. I just hope that all who come there for the first time will realize that Philadelphia is a lovely place and will come back to enjoy all the beauty of the city when it is less hectic.


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## Eric S (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm not sure what disagreeing with the (in my opinion) over-the-top security theater planned for Philadelphia has to do with hating the city of Philadelphia.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 11, 2015)

Same here, my criticism of extreme security shutdowns of roads and transit have nothing to do with Philadelphia itself, one of America's great cities.


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## JoeBas (Aug 11, 2015)

Same here... native South Jerseyan and all I'm seeing is a lot of hating the sin, but not the sinner.


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## amamba (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm also a south jersey native and I'm not seeing hate for the city of philly - just the crazy regulations shutting down the city.


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## west point (Aug 11, 2015)

Had many business trips to PHL and greatly enjoyed PHL...However this absolute ridiculous security will tarnish the city for folks visiting during the POPE"S visit. Hope that visitors will come back. I will be there sometime but not September.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 11, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Many of us have been in cities where Popes and Presidents visit and None have had a "plan" so over done as this fiasco!


Where I use to live, Pres Bill Clinton came for one of his first term "town meetings". It was at our middle school. There was an army of telephone trucks parked outside the school for around two-three weeks, installing a major telecommunications center just in the rare case there was a national emergency while he was here. They also had to build in the school a full surgical operating room, just in case the President needed medical attention. All for what, a one hour "chat"?

Where I live now, both Pres Bill Clinton and Pres Obama stopped by for lunch (different years, of course). They didn't shut down the highways, but I remember them stationing snipers on all the overpasses. For both Presidents, they took them to the most horrible places to eat. Clinton was taken to the lunch counter at a run down old bus station (which closed soon thereafter). Obama was taken to an old dinner. I don't know. If I had to take the POTUS out for lunch, I would have splurged for a far more fancy place, like McD's.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2015)

Very interesting! When Clinton, W and Obama come to Austin ( all the politicians come here) they eat @ really good joints like Gueros Taco Bar and Franklins Bar-B-Q. (FYI- at one time Clinton was known for eating junk food, even MickeyDs!!)

Their fund raisers are usually held @ Fancy Hotels like the W or Four Seasons or @ some Highrollers Mansion in the Hills.

Unfortunately they do cause a mess @ the Airport ( its very busy and too small) and create massive traffic jams to and from town.

They should use Choppers, the motorcades move so fast and are all just a bunch of black SuVs going 70 mph thruvtown! That's known as Security by the secret Service who can't even secure the White House!

I was speaking more of places like New York and other Real Cities, not wannabes like Austin!


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## PRR 60 (Aug 11, 2015)

The issue with the Philadelphia portion of the visit is the public, open-air mass to be celebrated by the Pope on the Ben Franklin Parkway. This event, along with the estimates of over 1 million potential participants, resulted in the Secretary of Homeland Security declaring the Philadelphia visit a "National Special Security Event (NSSE)," which by law, puts the US Secret Service in charge of anything they deem security related. That appears to be everything. Local officials from the mayor on down may be consulted, and there may even be cooperation, but the Secret Service is in charge, so what the Secret Service finally says is what happens. What has particularly frustrated some local officials is that they are getting slammed for the proposed plans, while those who are formulating the plans - the Secret Service - are saying nothing. Note that only the Philadelphia portion of the trip has been declared an NSSE.

For the sake of all those visiting Philadelphia that weekend, I hope things are not as bad as the worst fears are now. For many, this is a trip and spiritual opportunity of a lifetime. Hopefully, the security effort will not ruin the experience.


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## John Bredin (Aug 11, 2015)

Are the inconvenient and puzzling transit-related parts of the Pope Plan -- special passes only, only a handful of outer train stations open -- mandates by the Secret Service, though? I can see them ordering the closing of the nearest downtown station to the Mass as a security thing. I find it harder to believe that closing most of the outlying Regional Rail stations, miles outside the downtown security zone, was the idea of the Secret Service.


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## GG-1 (Aug 11, 2015)

Aloha

I feel real sorry for those in Philly. Durring my career I have worked with "Secret Service". In mu opinon most of them are the most &^^$#%& people. For the good ones you are judged by the idiots.

Good Luck Philly people.


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## RPC (Aug 12, 2015)

A couple of things to note here...first, SEPTA has suffered from years of budget constraints and as a result is short rolling stock. They either chose not to ask NJT for trains or they were turned down.

Second, about 328,000 of the 350,000 passes available in the lottery were taken (94%), so SEPTA's estimate of ridership is at least in the ballpark. The remaining passes are supposed to go on sale this weekend and are expected to sell out.

So while the plan seems crazy at first glance, SEPTA is betting that it's better to queue people on the ground and have almost all of them have seats than to have jammed trains and platforms with perhaps bypassing of passengers at close-in stations. Similarly, my first thought was, "Why not stop all the outbound trains at all three downtown stations?" I can say from experience that West Trenton trains are frequently SRO by the time they reach Jefferson/Market East. Again, it's more prudent to queue passengers in the station buildings than let them mob the platforms.

What about those who work downtown? Well, maybe that was the reason the lottery was split at 08:30. One could make a valid argument that SEPTA could have canvassed the downtown businesses and sold passes to their employees first, but policing that might have been a nightmare.

So for now I'm willing to give SEPTA the benefit of the doubt. I just hope it doesn't rain - either the people in the suburban queues are going to be thoroughly miserable or the trains will be half-empty!


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## Chucktin (Aug 12, 2015)

We are passing thru 30th St Station the day before! Thankfully.

We made plans before I knew about the Papal visit. Am not looking forward to being even that close.


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## chakk (Aug 12, 2015)

A unique opportunity for those planning to be in Philly during the Pope's is to get a bunk bed on board the battleship USS New Jersey, which is permanently moored in the Delaware River. I believe the bunk beds are being offered for $70 per night and include morning and evening mess (aka, meals).


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## NorthShore (Aug 13, 2015)

If only Francis had not insisted on taking transit to attend the Mass, himself!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 13, 2015)

chakk said:


> A unique opportunity for those planning to be in Philly during the Pope's is to get a bunk bed on board the battleship USS New Jersey, which is permanently moored in the Delaware River. I believe the bunk beds are being offered for $70 per night and include morning and evening mess (aka, meals).


Well, at least it isn't a Tin Can or a Sub! 

Those of us that are Navy vets know its not the Love Boat, but that sounds like a very unique expierence and a good deal considering what the area Hotels are charging!


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## neroden (Aug 13, 2015)

northnorthwest said:


> I thought about not bothering to reply to this, because I am sure I will be attacked, but I don't care. For those of you who hate Philly or hate American cities or whatever it is, that's fine.


Nobody has said anything of the sort. I love Philly. I visit it often. I don't understand why the mayor has decided to completely trash Philadelphia for the weekend by shutting down all of its transportation.

My fiancee uses a wheelchair and can't walk long distances. If we wanted to visit Philadelphia that weekend, *we couldn't*. It would be impossible to get around. Because the Mayor & Secret Service are shutting down public transportation, shutting down private car access, and so on.



> I will be in Philly to see the Pope during this "fiasco", and it will be a fantastic positive experience,


It'll be horrible for huge numbers of people. Get this through your head: they're making it *impossible for people to get to work*. Everything not Pope-related will be shut down due to lack of workers. They're *shutting down Philadelphia*. The workers you encounter will be miserable and frustrated at having to sleep overnight in cots at their workplaces.
I don't think the Pope wanted this. I don't know how much to blame the Secret Service for this -- (they're idiots, they should be ignored, and they also *can* legally be ignored by the state & local government) -- and I don't know how much to blame the Mayor and SEPTA management for this -- but it's a complete fiasco.

I love Philadelphia. It's a city, not a theme park. Seeing it completely shut down for *four whole days* is kind of horrifying. The Secret Service should not be in the business of shutting down cities.


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## Rob Creighton (Aug 13, 2015)

Comparing a pope's visit in 1979 to 2015 isn't really a comparison. It's a spectacularly different time in our Country's history. Obviously, I'm sure the feds, state and local officials all worried about terrorism or someone trying to take the life of the pope, but I don't think the repercussions of something bad happening during the pope's visit to Chicago in '79 were thought of having as far reaching consequences as something happening in 2015. Obviously, there would have been consequences, but there may be a feeling of: we can't have another 9-11, or an incident that would generate world wide coverage... driving those in charge of security to be overly cautious. 

That said, business owners, hotels, restaurants, any service industry that stands to make money on this weekend... they'll find a way to get their employees in. There's too much money to be made to just close the city down for 4 days. So I'd be surprised if that happens. That said, it could be a character building weekend for our friends in Philly, and even more so for those dealing with the faithful there to see the Pope.


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## JoeBas (Aug 13, 2015)

It's the job of the security folks to say "From a security standpoint, it's too dangerous to even let anyone in. Or failing that, everyone should arrive naked and rubbing their bodies from the poking and prodding."

It's the job of the people in charge to say "That's nice, Phil, but there's no point in having the event if nobody can attend. Overruled.".


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## jis (Aug 13, 2015)

There will be four NYP - PHL Event Trains run using most likely NJT equipment by Amtrak on Saturday and Sunday, which will stop at Hamilton NJ in addition to Newark, Metropark, Princeton Jct., and Trenton.

See: Northeast Corridor New York and Washington Special Timetable.


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## Train2104 (Aug 13, 2015)

jis said:


> There will be four NYP - PHL Event Trains run using most likely NJT equipment by Amtrak on Saturday and Sunday, which will stop at Hamilton NJ in addition to Newark, Metropark, Princeton Jct., and Trenton.
> 
> See: Northeast Corridor New York and Washington Special Timetable.


There will also be (2 on Saturday, one on Sunday) WAS-PHL trains, presumably MARC equipment.


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## SubwayNut (Aug 13, 2015)

I think this is the first "Amtrak" marketed at least service to stop in Hamilton!

I can't though seem to be able to find the station in the Amtrak app.


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## jis (Aug 13, 2015)

SubwayNut said:


> I think this is the first "Amtrak" marketed at least service to stop in Hamilton!
> 
> I can't though seem to be able to find the station in the Amtrak app.


Not just marketed, operated too. It is Amtrak crew that operates these trains. Only the equipment is borrowed from NJT, not crew.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 13, 2015)

Allegedly, the dual modes are being used.


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## jis (Aug 13, 2015)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Allegedly, the dual modes are being used.


Although they will probably operate only in Electric mode, no? Is this a protection against Amtrak catenary power outage?


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## west point (Aug 13, 2015)

If Amtrak happens to use dual mode NJT locos they probably would need a NJT engineer along for operation of the motor.


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## neroden (Aug 13, 2015)

Amtrak's move (extra trains!) seems completely reasonable. It's SEPTA's actions which are whacked out.


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## Acela150 (Aug 13, 2015)

chakk said:


> A unique opportunity for those planning to be in Philly during the Pope's is to get a bunk bed on board the battleship USS New Jersey, which is permanently moored in the Delaware River. I believe the bunk beds are being offered for $70 per night and include morning and evening mess (aka, meals).


If my Dad were still alive he would be all over that. He always said quote "That USS NJ always made me a lot of money".


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 14, 2015)

Rob Creighton said:


> Comparing a pope's visit in 1979 to 2015 isn't really a comparison. It's a spectacularly different time in our Country's history. Obviously, I'm sure the feds, state and local officials all worried about terrorism or someone trying to take the life of the pope, but I don't think the repercussions of something bad happening during the pope's visit to Chicago in '79 were thought of having as far reaching consequences as something happening in 2015. Obviously, there would have been consequences, but there may be a feeling of: we can't have another 9-11, or an incident that would generate world wide coverage... driving those in charge of security to be overly cautious.


Or we simply like the 2015 Pope more than we liked the 1979 Pope?


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## JoeBas (Aug 14, 2015)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Rob Creighton said:
> 
> 
> > Comparing a pope's visit in 1979 to 2015 isn't really a comparison. It's a spectacularly different time in our Country's history. Obviously, I'm sure the feds, state and local officials all worried about terrorism or someone trying to take the life of the pope, but I don't think the repercussions of something bad happening during the pope's visit to Chicago in '79 were thought of having as far reaching consequences as something happening in 2015. Obviously, there would have been consequences, but there may be a feeling of: we can't have another 9-11, or an incident that would generate world wide coverage... driving those in charge of security to be overly cautious.
> ...


It's just © a totally ® DIFFERENT WORLD (pat pend.) since 9/11 .


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## Acela150 (Aug 16, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Creighton said:
> ...


I have to say that, yes this world is much more changed since 1979. Which is a shame but, it's part of life.

I'm honestly trying to get the heck out of the area that weekend. I swear it's going to be like a prison. We have no clue how things will work at NS.


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2015)

jis said:


> It is Amtrak crew that operates these trains. Only the equipment is borrowed from NJT, not crew.





west point said:


> If Amtrak happens to use dual mode NJT locos they probably would need a NJT engineer along for operation of the motor.


This makes me curious....do Amtrak crews need to be "qualified", that is, receive training on the operation of non-Amtrak equipment, in advance?

While I suppose experienced crew could quickly learn how to operate doors and other equipment on "foreign" cars, such as double-decker's, etc. I wonder what preparation they may receive.

Operating a dual-mode locomotive is probably a lot more complicated, hence needing a road foreman or engineer qualified on that equipment....


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## Ryan (Aug 16, 2015)

It is a totally different world, back then we had people shooting the Pope (JP2, 1981) or trying to stab him (JP2, 1982).

Today, not so much.

Seems like a bit of overkill for this event, but this is the country that brings us "security" at the hands of the TSA, so what do you expect?

I did have the privilege of attending a Mass said by JP2 at Oriole Park in the early '90s, which was an awesome experience. I'm sure the chance to see Francis is even more exciting to a great many number of people.


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## JoeBas (Aug 16, 2015)

"I have to say that, yes this world is much more changed since 1979. Which is a shame but, it's part of life. "

[Fakesneeze]BULL$#!+[/Fakenneeze]

The world is the same as its always been.

The only thing that's changed is risk tolerance, and people obsessed with bubble wrapping life.

If you had been an adult before 9/11/01 you'd understand.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 16, 2015)

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > It is Amtrak crew that operates these trains. Only the equipment is borrowed from NJT, not crew.
> ...


They need to be qualified and a vast majority of them already are. However, they are giving the employees involved another refresher class.


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## Ryan (Aug 16, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> "I have to say that, yes this world is much more changed since 1979. Which is a shame but, it's part of life. "
> 
> [Fakesneeze]BULL$#!+[/Fakenneeze]
> 
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 16, 2015)

JoeBas: True that!


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## SarahZ (Aug 16, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> "I have to say that, yes this world is much more changed since 1979. Which is a shame but, it's part of life. "
> 
> [Fakesneeze]BULL$#!+[/Fakenneeze]
> 
> ...


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## neroden (Aug 16, 2015)

Actually, the US is a lot SAFER than it was in 1979, by any number of objective measures; street crime is waaaaay down, for example (probably due to the removal of lead from gasoline).

The paranoia and lack of risk tolerance among the "authorities" has been amped way up since 2001, however. It needs to stop.



Ryan said:


> It is a totally different world, back then we had people shooting the Pope (JP2, 1981) or trying to stab him (JP2, 1982).
> 
> Today, not so much.


Exactly.


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## andersone (Aug 17, 2015)

I can't find this T shirt,,, it has an outline of Geronimo and has text something like "Defending America Since 1492" She Who Must Be Obeyed never liked it,,, I bet it's gone to Goodwill ..

edit

I found the actual shirt

The Original "Homeland Security - Fighting Terrorism since 1492"

The image is of four Native Americans - not Geronimo

its so fun getting old and feeble


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 18, 2015)

Just saw where SEPTA sold 10,000 round trip tickets from/to WIL and Amtrak may add cars/trains for that weekend. Wilmington plans to queue everyone at the park behind the train station and check tickets before allowing people into the station (at least the SEPTA riders.

Don't have a link but it's at DelawareOnline.com


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 18, 2015)

NJT has changed its mind, and instead of cancelling the RiverLine, is now selling a limited amount of tickets for that weekend. My favorite NJT ticket agent (I will not be more specific so this person, who does an excellent job, doesn't get into trouble for saying anything) told me they weren't informed about the change or the procedure for selling the tickets before the information was made public.

I would like to make a snarky comment about NJT, but I tore them apart already today elsewhere when talking about TRE, so have to keep something for another day!


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 18, 2015)

They may not use the dual modes in favor of operating 10 car MLV consists.


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## northnorthwest (Aug 18, 2015)

neroden said:


> northnorthwest said:
> 
> 
> > I thought about not bothering to reply to this, because I am sure I will be attacked, but I don't care. For those of you who hate Philly or hate American cities or whatever it is, that's fine.
> ...


I have taken the time to write a reply to this, so I hope it will be published and not deleted like earlier today.

In response to your statement that nobody said anything against Philly, here are some examples:

Even by Philly standards, this is totally nuts. My opinion is that Philadelphia will be a very good place to avoid that weekend. There are some who think that is always true.  

(1) Do not visit Philadelphia during this fiasco.

(2) If you live in, or even near, Philadelphia, this would be a great weekend to take a vacation.

It'll be a disaster!

Philadelphia is either headed for a disaster or will be a laughing stock

You clearly haven't been looking at Septic.com...

In response to your second point, it is completely disrespectful for you to say to me: "Get this through your head." I am not a child.


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## west point (Aug 18, 2015)

SEPTA might be worried about a repeat of NJT's super bowl fiasco,


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 21, 2015)

Amtrak has announced its plans for that week/weekend.

Amtrak.com/papalvisit


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 21, 2015)

My goodness, Amtrak is actually increasing service for the papal visit. They must not have gotten the memo from SEPTA and NJ Transit to make it as difficult as possible to use transit services.


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## amamba (Aug 21, 2015)

Acela150 said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
> ...


personally I'm glad it's not 1979. How would I stay up to date on a things Amtrak without AU?!?!


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## the_traveler (Aug 21, 2015)

Smoke signals? :huh:


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## GG-1 (Aug 22, 2015)

Whistles


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## trainman74 (Aug 22, 2015)

_Passenger Train Journal_ magazine.


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## railiner (Aug 22, 2015)

trainman74 said:


> _Passenger Train Journal_ magazine.


And the little 'Rail Travel News' was pretty handy, and had more up to date newsbits than the 'slick' magazines....


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## OBS (Aug 23, 2015)

railiner said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> > _Passenger Train Journal_ magazine.
> ...


I LOVED RTN and its twice monthly publication!


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## PRR 60 (Aug 23, 2015)

Interesting details about 30th Street Station:


SEPTA Trenton and Wilmington line service will use the lower level platforms;
Taxi and rental car service will not be available;
and (my personal favorite), station restrooms will be *closed*, "but facilities will be available outside." Charming.


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 23, 2015)

Does that mean a long line of Portolets surrounding the building?


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## CHamilton (Aug 23, 2015)

Popeloos? Pontiffys?


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 23, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> I
> 
> 
> and (my personal favorite), station restrooms will be *closed*, "but facilities will be available outside." Charming.


We may have to change the name to the *Stool*kill River! :giggle:


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## west point (Aug 23, 2015)

It may be SEPTA using lower level platforms because upper level platforms might not be long enough for extra long trains as well. If trains run thru Trenton - Wilmington lower level wwill speed up trains 10 - 15 minutes.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 23, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> and (my personal favorite), station restrooms will be *closed*, "but facilities will be available outside." Charming.


When one uses the alternative "outside facilities", my advice is to aim well, and make sure don't hit the third rail. :giggle:


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## MattW (Aug 23, 2015)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > and (my personal favorite), station restrooms will be *closed*, "but facilities will be available outside." Charming.
> ...


Forunately only the subway has 3rd rail there at 30th street, and it's bottom-contact so it's a bit harder!


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## neroden (Aug 23, 2015)

Atrios (http://www.eschatonblog.com/) has been complaining about the sheer insanity of the SEPTA and city plans for a while now...


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## Chucktin (Sep 16, 2015)

We will be arriving on 98 northbound this AM in 30th Street Station. Never been before. Will try to post when in Hotel. Wish us luck!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 16, 2015)

Chucktin said:


> We will be arriving on 98 northbound this AM in 30th Street Station. Never been before. Will try to post when in Hotel. Wish us luck!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


If you're arriving today, 9/16, you should have no trouble.


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## Chucktin (Sep 16, 2015)

Woodbridge VA just passed.


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## CelticWhisper (Sep 16, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> Popeloos? Pontiffys?


Relevant.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 16, 2015)

neroden said:


> I love Philadelphia. It's a city, not a theme park. Seeing it completely shut down for *four whole days* is kind of horrifying.


Saying that Philadelphia will be "completely shut down for four whole days" is kind of silly and disrespectful to the hundreds of thousands of Philadelphia residents who live outside the "traffic box." The "city" is much more than the downtown business/tourist district. It also ignores the fact that most of the closures are only in effect from Friday night until Sunday night.

Yes, it will be inconvenient for people who work downtown over the weekend (M-F workers will see relatively few changes). Yes, it's not a good weekend to be a non-papal tourist in Philly (But seriously, the Liberty Bell's been around for 260 years...I think we can give it a break for a couple of days). And yes, I don't really "get" the Regional Rail service plan.

But "horrifying" is over the top. Really, really over the top.


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## Acela150 (Sep 16, 2015)

Actually people who live in the city outside of the city and in nearby Bucks, Montgomery, and Delaware Counties are effected by this. No it's not disrespectful to say that the city will be shut down for four days.. Cause it's worse then you'd think. People who park in certain areas can't park where they normally park starting Sunday. Most of the city folk are planning on bailing out the city/state. My brother who is effect by this is going to upper NY state. Some guys at work are going on vacation. It looks like the only trains running in the area will be Amtrak and Septa. All freight traffic is severely restricted from what we're being told. So much to the point that things will be messy for a while.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 16, 2015)

And the area around WIL is also going to be affected. We just got an email at work warning us about the heavier than normal traffic & street closures. My office campus is a block north of WIL. Some people will be allowed to work from home, at least 1/2 days, to avoid the mess.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 16, 2015)

I've taken the liberty of editing your post for the purpose of responding. You will notice that I have not deleted any of your original post, merely changed the formatting.



Acela150 said:


> 1. Actually people who live in the city outside of the city and in nearby Bucks, Montgomery, and Delaware Counties are effected by this.
> 
> 2. No it's not disrespectful to say that the city will be shut down for four days..
> 
> ...


1. I didn't say they wouldn't be affected. But to imply that neighborhoods outside of city center, as well as suburbs, will be "shut down" is inaccurate. Life will go one more or less uninterrupted for many people in places like Warminster, Levittown and Chester. So, yeah, not a good weekend to hop regional rail into the city. But not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

2. Whether or not you think it's "disrespectful" is beside the point. It's simply inaccurate. I'm not a current resident of Philadelphia, but I have lived at no less than four different locations in Philly over the years. Of those four, only one of those would be directly affected by the street closures [and I didn't own a car while I lived there anyhow.] Of the jobs I worked while in Philly, NONE of them would have been affected by the mass transit changes...largely because I worked M-F but also because most of the transit routes I used _will still be operating_. Yes, that's simply my personal experience. And yes, I have no physical impairments that make it difficult to walk a few extra blocks. But the bellyache about the "whole city" being shut down marginalizes the hundreds of thousands of people whose neighborhoods are outside the core.

3. Yes, it is true that "certain areas" will be affected as early as Sunday. Not the entire city. You can go to the city's website to see affected streets. Yes, it's inconvenient if you live in those areas. I think that people outside "certain areas" may soon weary of the complaints coming from those areas. Check out which neighborhoods receive the best city services on an ongoing basis and I think you'll figure out why. Suck it up for a few days, whydontcha? [spoken in my most loving Philadelphia accent.]

4. Leaving town for the weekend? Going on vacation? Horrifying indeed. Sounds a lot like a typical summer weekend, except it's in September. Yawn.

5. No freight trains for a few days? How does this make life inconvenient for a single Philadelphia resident? Railroads deal with blizzards, hurricanes, etc each year and somehow manage to work things out in the end. I think it's great that passenger trains are being given priority. YMMV.


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## Chucktin (Sep 16, 2015)

Perhaps we could haul back on the throttle somewhat?

Big cities mean big congestion, I get it.

Maybe discussing coping strategy(s) is a better use of time and effort?


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## Acela150 (Sep 16, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> I've taken the liberty of editing your post for the purpose of responding. You will notice that I have not deleted any of your original post, merely changed the formatting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. The amount of cars that park in those area affected will affect other areas.

2. Currently the most of the major highways in the area will be shut down. Including the Short Kill. 95 will be open with some ramps closed. There has been no talk about Septa busses in the city.

3. The affected area will affect plenty of the city. Parking is already at a premium in that area.

4. September after labor day is actually a decent time to go on a vacation.

5. This was just a general statement.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 16, 2015)

Okay, Acela150, fair enough. I never owned a car while I lived in Philly as it is such an easy place to live car-free. I'm not as receptive to parking issues for that reason. I'll grant you that on-street parking is a challenge in some neighborhoods under normal conditions...though to be fair, some of the people in the affected areas have access to off-street parking, which is not specifically restricted. I still maintain that life will be relatively normal in many neighborhoods that weekend, but yes taken as a whole, the city will certainly be operating under unusual conditions.

As far as SEPTA buses, obviously many of them are affected. Some are diverting to Orange/Green/Blue Line stations that remain open. Others are canceled altogether. Still others are operating normal weekend routes/schedules. You can scroll down to the Bus section here for more info. http://www.septa.org/fares/special-papal-visit-transit.html


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## PRR 60 (Sep 16, 2015)

Acela150 said:


> ..There has been no talk about Septa busses in the city.


SEPTA info on buses is up. See it on this page (scroll down to BUS SERVICE).


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Sep 17, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> 2. Whether or not you think it's "disrespectful" is beside the point. It's simply inaccurate. I'm not a current resident of Philadelphia, but I have lived at no less than four different locations in Philly over the years. Of those four, only one of those would be directly affected by the street closures [and I didn't own a car while I lived there anyhow.] Of the jobs I worked while in Philly, NONE of them would have been affected by the mass transit changes...largely because I worked M-F but also because most of the transit routes I used _will still be operating_. Yes, that's simply my personal experience. And yes, I have no physical impairments that make it difficult to walk a few extra blocks. But the bellyache about the "whole city" being shut down marginalizes the hundreds of thousands of people whose neighborhoods are outside the core.


While you might strictly be a M-F worker, its being pretty myopic to assume that every single job in Philly is M-F too, especially those who jobs will have the addition load of supporting all those attending the sensationalized event (hotels, restaurants, etc). And to assume that all private and public transit routes will still be running just-like-normal, is simply being in denial.

And all this because one single man likes to bath himself in the limelight of public attention. Ah, vanity run amok.


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## RPC (Sep 17, 2015)

"And all this because one single man likes to bath himself in the limelight of public attention." Odd that he can go just about anywhere else in the world without all this security brouhaha.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 17, 2015)

I don't think this Pope would want all this hoopla/security either. It's OUR people who are going overboard.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 17, 2015)

Yep, TSA is probably even trying to get in on the"action!"


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## PRR 60 (Sep 17, 2015)

RPC said:


> "And all this because one single man likes to bath himself in the limelight of public attention." Odd that he can go just about anywhere else in the world without all this security brouhaha.


The Pope's visit to Philadelphia was declared a "National Special Security Event (NSSE)" by the Department of Homeland Security. This is a legal designation that puts the US Secret Service in charge of all security arrangements. Now in charge, the USSS does not answer to the Mayor, the Philly Police, to PennDOT, SEPTA, or anyone other than the Secretary of Homeland Security and the President. They pretty much do what they want, and we now have what we have. They are charged with keeping the Pope safe, and what better way than to discourage as many people as possible from attending. From the standpoint of the Secret Service, if no one attended, that would be the ideal security situation.

The city and tourism people are really concerned about how this event is unfolding. It is next weekend (9/26 & 27). Amtrak has lots of seats available. American Airlines (US Airways), the primary PHL carrier, says they have not seen any significant increase in bookings to PHL and have not upgauged or added flights. Hotels, even in center city, have lots of unbooked rooms and have lowered prices. SEPTA had 350,000 one-day rail passes for sale, and they have sold about 150,000 so far. They went from holding a web lottery to handle the expected huge, well over 350,000 demand, to begging people to buy them at staffed stations. The inner zone, where the emphasis was on how tight security would be to enter, has been renamed the "Francis Festival Area" to make it seem, well, "festive."

Eleven days from now it will all be over except for emptying the port-a-potty's and clearing the trash. I can't wait.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 17, 2015)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> While you might strictly be a M-F worker, its being pretty myopic to assume that every single job in Philly is M-F too, especially those who jobs will have the addition load of supporting all those attending the sensationalized event (hotels, restaurants, etc). And to assume that all private and public transit routes will still be running just-like-normal, is simply being in denial.
> 
> And all this because one single man likes to bath himself in the limelight of public attention. Ah, vanity run amok.


You are putting words in my mouth. I never once "assumed" that "every single job in Philly is M-F" nor did I "assume" that "public transit routes will still be running just-like normal." [And by the way, the shift for one of my M-F jobs was 4:30 a.m. - 9:30 a.m., so I know a thing or two about taking transit during off-peak hours in Philly...a Green Line trolley connecting to Orange Line Nite Owl bus service got me to work each morning.]

I mentioned M-F in the context of others stating that the "entire city will be shut down for four days" which is simply incorrect. People who work M-F will see little to no changes in their routines. This accounts for the vast majority of SEPTA Regional Rail commuters.

And you probably missed my post where I linked to the SEPTA website that outlines transit changes during the papal weekend visit. In no way am I "assuming" or am in "denial" about transit. I am getting the info straight from the horse's mouth. The fact is that Blue/Orange Line trains will still be operating into Center City, albeit with limited stops. For those who need to get into Center City from outlying neighborhoods over the weekend, transit is still a viable option. Yes, some people will have to walk further to the nearest operating station. As I stated before, it's clear that simply coming into Center City for a non-pope related leisure trip is probably not a good idea. I don't count myself among those who classify that as "horrifying."


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## Acela150 (Sep 17, 2015)

RPC said:


> "And all this because one single man likes to bath himself in the limelight of public attention." Odd that he can go just about anywhere else in the world without all this security brouhaha.


The basic reason is simple... They don't want the pope "knocked off" on U.S. soil..


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## neroden (Sep 18, 2015)

Shutting down 90% of the stations on both Regional Rail *and* the subway-elevated lines *and* the trolley lines amounts to shutting down the public transportation system. You may have been lucky enough to live next to one of the stations which isn't closing, but for people who live near the stations which are closing, the massive closures make the system pretty much unusable over the weekend.

It's not a sane public transportation plan. I've seen public transportation plans for huge events, and this is simply not how you do it. Sometimes you close some of the center city stations, but you *never* close *any* of the suburban stations; you're trying to distribute traffic amongst them.

The Thursday, Friday, and Monday alterations look like typical event-schedule changes and probably won't wreck things too much. The Saturday and Sunday changes are designed to shut the city down. I know there are places where seasonal agricultural workers will typically hike to work long distances, but urban workers are less accustomed to this...

Seems like the Secret Service is going to achieve its goal: low attendance.

Shutting down freight rail service for the weekend isn't good either, though it depends on how far the freight exclusion extends. If the freight yards in Frankford and in Delaware are operating, and the bypass routes around Philadelphia are operating, it's probably not too bad; if the freight exclusion zone is larger than that, it would cause a problem


----------



## Chucktin (Sep 18, 2015)

Departed Philly thru 30th St Station this morning. No more than what I would call the usual amount of confusion. Traffic control going up all over near the outdoor venues though.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 18, 2015)

neroden said:


> 1
> Seems like the Secret Service is going to achieve its goal: low attendance.




I think Neroden may actually be on to something. I think all of this hoopla is having an impact and causing people to stay away. Unless something dramatic occurs, I seriously doubt you'll see the extra NJT runs to PHL this weekend.


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## Acela150 (Sep 18, 2015)

Some people are starting to wonder (And I'm one of them) if this is being blown out of proportion. Septa still has tickets available for the trains. Hotel rooms are available by the thousands right now. It's looking like a major failure in the works. We shall see soon.


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## Chaz (Sep 19, 2015)

* "Papal Jam," Andrew Marantz sits in on New Jersey Transit's apocalyptic preparation for Pope Francis' visit. *

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/09/21/papal-jam (Sept 21 issue) 

"Skip the idiotic first sentence, and this is a perfectly Talk of the Town way to cover the papal visit. The protagonist is dee-lightful. Marantz underlays his laughter at (not with) his subjects with the nagging sensation that they may not be overpreparing at all."

[via the email briefing us which articles in The New Yorker to reaad, skim or skip: ]

http://tinyletter.com/NYerMinute


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## peconicstation (Sep 20, 2015)

Acela150 said:


> Some people are starting to wonder (And I'm one of them) if this is being blown out of proportion. Septa still has tickets available for the trains. Hotel rooms are available by the thousands right now. It's looking like a major failure in the works. We shall see soon.


While some of us has stated how this event has shades of the July 4, 1976 debacle written all over it, there is a huge difference between then and now, and that being the surge in Center City's population. This surge has allowed Philly to reverse a 40 plus year population decline, yet most of these new residents do not work in Center City (which is still loosing jobs), they commute to other areas of Philly, and the 'burbs. All of these folks, plus all the people who work in service jobs will see their lives disrupted all week, and that is beyond wrong.

As for Amtrak hopefully the corrider can run at some level of normalcy, someone travelling to Boston should not wind up held hostage because of the Pope

Ken .


----------



## Eric S (Sep 20, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> This surge has allowed Philly to reverse a 40 plus year population decline, yet most of these new residents do not work in Center City (which is still loosing jobs), they commute to other areas of Philly, and the 'burbs. All of these folks, plus all the people who work in service jobs will see their lives disrupted all week, and that is beyond wrong.


Is Center City actually losing jobs? Or just gaining new residents far more than it's gaining jobs?


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## Chucktin (Sep 25, 2015)

Arrived 30th St from Harrisburg @ 09:35. Somewhat congested but no more than I'd expect for a large event. No Goose stepping ***** obvious. Still glad we are only here to change trains and be on our way.


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## haolerider (Sep 28, 2015)

After all the jabbering about the Pope's visit, I would expect to hear exactly what happened and what did not happen! Any factual reports?


----------



## Rob Creighton (Sep 28, 2015)

So how did it play out?


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## CHamilton (Sep 28, 2015)

Big transit crowds - but far below predictions


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## jis (Sep 28, 2015)

I am still wondering why Philadelphia became such a giant CF while New York and Washington stayed pretty much on even keel even though the Pope visited multiple places/gatherings in each including a Madison Square Garden event and a 9/11 Memorial event and a UN General Assembly event in New York.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 28, 2015)

I don't know what "CF" means here (I did look it up, but there are about 30 meanings for this acronym), but I get the general idea, so here are my two theories (both completely unsubstantiated, but I think logical, guesses):

The noncynical theory: The secret service thought that, although Philly has hosted large events, it doesn't have the steady stream of political figures and events that the other two cities have, so might need more help with security measures.

The cynical theory (and my favorite): The secret service wanted a city to bully and show off its power and thought that Philly would put up less resistance than DC or New York.


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## jis (Sep 28, 2015)

Fortunately I don't think the sense in which CF is used here is listed too often as a standard use. It is used as a short form of "cluster f**k", often also referred to as "Charlie Foxtrot".


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 28, 2015)

You're right--that one wasn't one of the definitions listed!


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 28, 2015)

One of the factors is that SEPTA and PATCO wildly overestimated the number of persons who would use their services. The draconian measures of drastically limiting the number of stations and advance presale of tickets served to cut down the number of "casual" visitors, those who might attend out of curiosity, rather than actually wanting to see the pope and attend the activities. On another website, it was stated that SEPTA serves about 175,000 riders on its weekday rush hour regional trains, and since SEPTA train service employees had to have one day off over the weekend to meet federal time of service rules, SEPTA could only handle about 87,000 riders on regional rail trains. Since the actual numbers seem to be in the 55-60,000 range, then there was plenty of cushion. I imagine the estimate of 1 million persons attending Sunday's mass was also wildly overestimated.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 28, 2015)

MRD: CF is an old military term, that in polite society would be "Cluster Flub", as situation all messed up beyond repair! ( also see "Snafu" and "Fubar"))

And I like your theory, all people that are in paramilitary outfits like to throw their weight around.

As for Philly, guess its not what it used to be back when it was the Capitol of the US, and our Founding Fathers basically created our Country in that fair city!


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## RPC (Sep 28, 2015)

Report from the trenches: my family attended the Papal Mass on Sunday. We got to the designated remote parking area around 09:30, only to be waved off and told to go to the regular parking lot. Ten minutes after we parked we were on a train rolling toward Jefferson station. The station itself was chock-full of friendly SEPTA personnel. Of course we had to hike around downtown to reach the northwest entrance to the site, but it was kind of a "holiday" experience, what with the major streets being closed to vehicular traffic. The security checkpoint could best be described as "airport lite" - walk-through metal detectors (keep your shoes on) and package inspection, but no package X-rays. Security during the event was unmistakable: Ospreys and helicopters overhead, armed personnel stationed on top of nearby buildings, lots of police and Secret Service and soldiers driving about on motorcycles and horses and golf carts. That said, my chief complaint was the dust kicked up after a million people had worn the grass off the ground! The trip back was similarly smooth: the hike around town, getting into the three-block long cattle chute and walking all the way to the top of the stairs to the train (i.e. no line!). After a few hundred people had accumulated (maybe fifteen minutes), SEPTA rolled in a train and sent us home. We got back in our car about 20:00 (8PM).

My evaluation: SEPTA ended up grossly overestimating the load they were going to carry, but that made for a pretty pleasant experience in the event. Now, they chose my regular stop as the designated station for my line, so your mileage may have varied!


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 28, 2015)

My only comments: Who paid for all of this foolishness?

Anyone ever hear of Seperation of Church and State?


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## haolerider (Sep 28, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> My only comments: Who paid for all of this foolishness?
> 
> Anyone ever hear of Seperation of Church and State?


The same people that pay for everything! All of us!Jim, you need to calm down a bit or you will be old before your time! Nothing you can do about this kind of thing, so why get all worked up?


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm not losing any sleep over this , and I'm already old! LOL


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## neroden (Sep 28, 2015)

SEPTA allowed hysteria to rule their planning. As a result, commutes were disrupted for lots of weekend workers. Which wasn't necessary at all because traffic was actually lower than what the regular schedule can handle on the weekend.  If they'd kept all the suburban stations open, the lines would have been a lot shorter as people would have been distributed between different stations.

Meanwhile, the hysterical paramilitaries were wandering around showing off their paramilitariness for no particular reason, but were mostly harmless.

Atrios's assessment (he's a native Philadelphian):

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2015/09/12-trillion-pilgrims.html

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2015/09/whats-it-all-about-then.html

It killed the weekend restaurant business:

http://www.phillymag.com/foobooz/2015/09/26/pope-francis-philadelphia-restaurants/



Mystic River Dragon said:


> The cynical theory (and my favorite): The secret service wanted a city to bully and show off its power and thought that Philly would put up less resistance than DC or New York.


You might be right. I'm surprised that Philadelphia didn't put up more resistance. DC ("Taxation without Representation") *always* resists; perhaps being an occupied territory with no representation tends to make them more instinctively hostile to such stuff. NY has been weirdly compliant with insane security gibberish in recent years, more so than (say) Los Angeles.

P.S.: Trainorders discussion of the failure created by the "security" plans, mostly from abyler, who was there, and who had complained to SEPTA in advance and been blown off:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3853920


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## Acela150 (Sep 28, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> My only comments: Who paid for all of this foolishness?
> 
> Anyone ever hear of Seperation of Church and State?


When it comes to the "who paid for it" factor... Some folks in the area are a bit perturbed as the City Schools that are in serious serious need of funding and people are pulling the well we can pay for all this BS but we can't pay for our schools????

As for how the local business' faired.. Business owners are also perturbed.. Many business' sales were down 50% or MORE! Many business' closed early both days of the weekend. They were told by the Mayor that they would benefit from this. With Mayor Nutter stating an estimated $390 Million would be pumped in to the local business' over the weekend. Interestingly enough like every politician today at a News Conference Mayor Nutter goes to the "I never said that" excuse.

I was never really of a fan of Michael Nutter and even more so now.


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## jis (Sep 29, 2015)

At least out of the pain of doing an Olympics one gets a bunch of infrastructure. Philly basically got not much that is lasting, other than good feeling out of this, at some significant cost.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 29, 2015)

jis said:


> At least out of the pain of doing an Olympics one gets a bunch of infrastructure. Philly basically got not much that is lasting, other than good feeling out of this, at some significant cost.


The event (WMOF) paid at least some, and the mayor says almost all the city's costs. The contract calls for reimbursement of police, other city services and a rental charge for the Parkway at an estimated $12 million with the final value determined by invoices submitted to the WMOF by November 1. All the temporary structures for the event were provided and erected by the WMOF. The total cost to the WMOF is estimated at $45 million. I don't doubt that the city, states, and federal government will be on the hook for some of the expenses, but it is not 100%.


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## jis (Sep 29, 2015)

That is good to know. Too bad some good permanent infrastructure could not be extracted out of the deal though


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## RPC (Sep 29, 2015)

Jim,

Unfortunately in this case there is no separation of church and state: the Pope is a religious leader AND a head of state (albeit a miniscule one). The public transportation brouhaha was also unfortunate; from what I've heard from acquaintances I'd guess the attendance would have been at least double if regular SEPTA service had been running. To have to visit a Catholic church to get an event ticket PLUS visiting a SEPTA ticket office in advance is a very high hurdle to jump just to satisfy one's curiosity!


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks to all for the responses! I do understand how the system works!

My biggest concern is showing favoritism to one religion over another @_Govt expense ( Christianity is a minority in today's world)while the various Governments are claiming they're broke and the right wing wants to gut social programs ( and Amtrak!) so as to fund more wars and a bigger security state!

I know the planning for Philly was a Keystone Kops operation, why didn't they just do the whole thing in Washington or New,York in conjunction with a "State" visit as opposed to a strictly Religious event in Phily @ tax payers expense?

In this case, it really is both the principle of the thing and the money!!


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## fairviewroad (Sep 29, 2015)

jis said:


> At least out of the pain of doing an Olympics one gets a bunch of infrastructure. Philly basically got not much that is lasting, other than good feeling out of this, at some significant cost.


Perhaps, but the Olympics are a 2-week long event (or longer, if you count the Paralympics). This was a 2-_day_ event. [The WMOF that preceded the weekend Papal visit doesn't really count, as that was basically a run-of-the-mill conference that large cities like Philly host all the time.]

Imagine the public outcry if lasting infrastructure improvements were made to satisfy the needs of a 2-day event. And what's worse, imagine if those infrastructure improvements were tailored to the specific Papal visit events rather than day-to-day transit needs.


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## Palmetto (Sep 29, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> Philadelphia seems to be "over planning" for this event. I don't think they will be getting the big crowds that are anticipated. People will say, "I'm not getting involved in this mess." There are way too may restrictions being put in place.
> 
> Chicago hosted Pope John Paul II during Jane Byrne's administration as mayor and the whole city didn't shut down.
> 
> Philadelphia is either headed for a disaster or will be a laughing stock when only a few thousand people show up.


Looks like Mike had it right.


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## Ryan (Sep 29, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> My biggest concern is showing favoritism to one religion over another @_Govt expense


That's not what is happening here. The Pope is also a head of state, and any other religious leader of any denomination with a similar popularity would be treated the same way. The fact that he's Catholic really has nothing to do with it.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 29, 2015)

Good points Ryan, but the key word you used, popularity, helps my point about religious favoritism @ Govt expense.

I have no problem with Head of State Dog and Pony shows, happens all the time in WAS and NY.

But what if the Supreme Leader of Iran wanted to shut down a US City to conduct Prayers, or the Kooky for Life Atheist from North Korea wanted to put on a similar rally?

Same difference no?


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## Chaz (Sep 29, 2015)

I had to look up WMOF that PRR 60 mentioned as paying some of the costs. ... Doubted Google would list it...but it did: World Meeting of Families


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## northnorthwest (Sep 29, 2015)

The event went well, and people from all over the world had a great time. Was it perfect? No. But it was not a "fiasco", nor a "disaster", it didn't make Philly "a laughing stock", and "septic" seemed to fun just fine. None of the outrageous doom-and-gloom, end-of-the-world predictions that appeared on this thread came true. Amen.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 29, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> Thanks to all for the responses! I do understand how the system works!
> 
> My biggest concern is showing favoritism to one religion over another @_Govt expense ( Christianity is a minority in today's world)while the various Governments are claiming they're broke and the right wing wants to gut social programs ( and Amtrak!) so as to fund more wars and a bigger security state!
> 
> ...


Hey, Jim, how come you changed your name? Afraid of backlash?


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## trainman74 (Sep 29, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> Hey, Jim, how come you changed your name? Afraid of backlash?


The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.


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## Ryan (Sep 29, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> But what if the Supreme Leader of Iran wanted to shut down a US City to conduct Prayers, or the Kooky for Life Atheist from North Korea wanted to put on a similar rally?
> 
> Same difference no?


Not really, neither of them are heads of their religions.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 29, 2015)

trainman74 said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, Jim, how come you changed your name? Afraid of backlash?
> ...


Nope, it just seemed like a good time to "..shed one more layer of skin.." and to change my name like my favorite poet Robert Zimmerman did!


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## Chatter163 (Oct 5, 2015)

northnorthwest said:


> The event went well, and people from all over the world had a great time. Was it perfect? No. But it was not a "fiasco", nor a "disaster", it didn't make Philly "a laughing stock", and "septic" seemed to fun just fine. None of the outrageous doom-and-gloom, end-of-the-world predictions that appeared on this thread came true. Amen.


Agreed. If the city hadn't planned what it did, and there were a few more people, the same people and others would be complaining that the city failed to prepare for every eventuality. Several hundred thousand did show up for the Papal Mass at Franklin Parkway, so it's not like they didn't have large crowds at hand.


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## neroden (Oct 6, 2015)

What happened was that the city lost vast amounts of business that weekend, and lots of people couldn't get to work. The locals all got out of town if they could. All totally unnecessary.

If the goal was to make as few people as possible visit, mission accomplished.

If they'd run a normal SEPTA schedule, it would have gone fine, and people would have had a better time. The insane "close most of our stations" plan from SEPTA didn't even make sense -- that's simply not how you deal with large crowds. If you're competent, you spread them out between as many suburban stations as possible.


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