# Disillusionment with Amtrak sleeper perks



## RickIronton (Sep 1, 2016)

The City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Chicago disillusioned me on more long distance train travel.

Even though the sleeping car attendant (Rion) was excellent, the dining car menu should have been titled "TV Dinner Menu".

It was a farce. The choices could easily have been added to the cafe car menu since they were all microwaveable items on one small plastic plate.

I use the Amtrak Mastercard but I'm converting to card that will give perks on general travel.

Sadly, Amtrak is loosing a dedicated traveler due to the reduction of amenities for long distance travel.

And, yes, I have contacted customer service.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Sep 1, 2016)

Amenities in the dining car of the City of New Orleans have been diminished for over a year now as they removed the chef. Since I am a native Louisianian who lives in Nashville with "zero" Amtrak service, for the last three years I have been using New Orleans as my origin or destination for Amtrak trips using the CONO mostly. Because of the reduction in service on the CONO, I have stopped using that train for my future trips. Instead, I am flying to Chicago for my October and January trips I use to begin in New Orleans to connect to the California Zephyr. In April, I will travel on the Crescent to DC connecting to Capitol Limited to Chicago and then the CZ to Emeryville. I will return to DC on the CZ and CL and staying in DC before flying home to Nashville on Southwest.


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## George K (Sep 1, 2016)

RickIronton said:


> And, yes, I have contacted customer service.


I did the same thing after my most recent trip on CONO. I got a nice reply in "corpspeak" that said nothing, other than acknowledging the fact that they got my letter.

Sadly, I think our complaints, though heard, will have little impact on what Amtrak actually does.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 1, 2016)

As long as Cong. Mica remains an influential person in transportation matters, these cutbacks will continue. The Washington Post recently reported that Mica may be in trouble in his election bid this year. Orlando area residents who are AU members, you know what you have to do.


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## StriderGDM (Sep 1, 2016)

I would also definitely recommend writing Amtrak and let them know they're probably losing a customer.

I've said again and again, that the experience is a big part of why I prefer the sleeper over flying. Take away the experience (degrade the food, etc.) and that all changes.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 2, 2016)

Here's hoping for the defeat on Rep. Mica in his newly reapportioned district.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Sep 2, 2016)

RickIronton said:


> The City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Chicago disillusioned me on more long distance train travel.
> 
> Even though the sleeping car attendant (Rion) was excellent, the dining car menu should have been titled "TV Dinner Menu".
> 
> ...


I agree 110% about the meal. After having read numerous reviews here raving about the food on Amtrak, I was seriously disappointed to find the food served to me in my roomette (round trip ABQ-LAX 2015) comparable to an inexpensive "TV dinner".

Adding 'insult to injury' the SCA basically tossed the white plastic shopping bag containing the meal into my lap as she walked down the hall, and didn't return to pick it up for three hours.

The couple in the roomette across from me got the same disappointing service and quality of food.

Thank goodness the meal was included in the cost of my roomette. Imagine paying big bucks for that?


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## enoreeman (Sep 2, 2016)

The last time I traveled First Class was 2002 on the CZ, the SCA had soft drinks, juice, water and coffee for the passengers, it looks like today you get bottled water and that is all. The meals were much better looking than what the current menu looks like. Also they had a signature dessert that i do not see on the current menu. But in today's world of pay more, get less for everything what can you expect. Everything has gotten smaller packaging for more money, Amtrak is just following the lead of others. The trouble is that there is nothing that can be done about any of it because the only way to send a message to companies would be a total boycott of their product and there is no way that could ever happen.


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## jis (Sep 2, 2016)

MikefromCrete said:


> As long as Cong. Mica remains an influential person in transportation matters, these cutbacks will continue. The Washington Post recently reported that Mica may be in trouble in his election bid this year. Orlando area residents who are AU members, you know what you have to do.


First the Orlando area residents have to figure out which district they are actually in. As our own penny will tell you, many are confused. 

Mica won the Republican primary with 77% of the votes. is district CD-7 has been redistricted and has lost the conservative part of Vlusia County to gain less conservative parts of Sanford and north-central Orange County. So we'll see what happens in the general.


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## rtabern (Sep 2, 2016)

Agreed with the meals... I don't see us taking Amtrak long distance EAST or SOUTH out of Chicago ever again.

Our May 1 trip on the City of New Orleans was the first trip with these microwaved TV dinners... just horrible. They have spread over to the Cardinal now, too. Cross those two trains off our list.

Our experience on the Capitol Limited with the Cross-Country Cafe was also horrible -- using half the car our 8:30pm dinner turned into a 10:05pm dinner the last couple of times. (Couldn't get in earlier because reservations were taken for the earlier times by folks who were connecting in the Met Lounge). Cross the Capitol off too.

And cross of the Lake Shore until the diners come back. UGH.

We will still do the western trains, esp. the Coast Starlight... and chase wherever Amtrak is running Ocean View... and that will be about it.


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## tonys96 (Sep 2, 2016)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Amenities in the dining car of the City of New Orleans have been diminished for over a year now as they removed the chef. Since I am a native Louisianian who lives in Nashville with "zero" Amtrak service, for the last three years I have been using New Orleans as my origin or destination for Amtrak trips using the CONO mostly. Because of the reduction in service on the CONO, I have stopped using that train for my future trips. Instead, I am flying to Chicago for my October and January trips I use to begin in New Orleans to connect to the California Zephyr. In April, I will travel on the Crescent to DC connecting to Capitol Limited to Chicago and then the CZ to Emeryville. I will return to DC on the CZ and CL and staying in DC before flying home to Nashville on Southwest.


We just rode the Crescent going north. Food was acceptable. Downgrades were noticible, though. Paper on table, plastic dishes, but we had REALmetal utensils.


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## ciship (Sep 2, 2016)

I took the CONO twice in June and I must admit, those "meals" were really disgusting. The "omelet" I had for breakfast was gooey and gag worthy. Really disappointing overall (and I LOVE taking the train!).


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Sep 2, 2016)

ciship said:


> I took the CONO twice in June and I must admit, those "meals" were really disgusting. The "omelet" I had for breakfast was gooey and gag worthy. Really disappointing overall (and* I LOVE taking the train!).*


As do I. But, if my health should permit me to take another overnight roomette trip ABQ~LAX, I'll bring my own food. I'll just accept a soda and dessert.


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## rrdude (Sep 2, 2016)

"Dinner in the Diner", (or breakfast, or lunch) *used to be* one of the things I looked forward to on Amtrak, as much for the food, as for the social aspect. Now, the food is, well, many have heard me bitc#$ and moan, "Applebees at best", and IMHO, that ain't so great at all. However, it appears that many, many, many younger travelers actually *enjoy* the meals offered in the diner.

As one who has both worked in the kitchen of the dining cars, and one who has waited a *lot * of tables, (albeit, *decades* ago) it is sad to see how little they utilize the wonderful, (but ageing) Superliner equipment, just slinging out par-cooked meals, and almost nothing "cooked to order".

For me, the "best part of the railroad dining experience" is now post-meal, while finishing dessert, with either a coffee or vino, and just chillin' and talking to those X the table. The meal itself does in *no way* excite me anymore......


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## Kenneth (Sep 2, 2016)

I did a trip on CONO Tuesday. Had Rion for an SCA southbound. He was excellent. But the food was disappointing. Last round trip was a couple years ago & it was very good.


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## JohannFarley (Sep 3, 2016)

(It's midnight here and I'm not awake so please bear with my seeming stupidity) This is all due to the situation with pulling heritage diners off but not having the replacement VLII's right? Or does all of this stem from a deeper issue that the lack of diners is only fueling rather than causing?


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## greatcats (Sep 3, 2016)

The situation on the CONO has nothing to do with Viewliners, as it does not use that equipment. It has more to do, correct me if I am wrong, with the hacks in Congress telling Amtrak they had to cut food service losses. From what I'm reading, If I should take that train, I too will bring my own food.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 3, 2016)

greatcats said:


> The situation on the CONO has nothing to do with Viewliners, as it does not use that equipment. It has more to do, correct me if I am wrong, with the hacks in Congress telling Amtrak they had to cut food service losses.


Indeed and Mr. Boardman stated he would eliminate such losses in 5 years. This is one of the steps.


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## JohannFarley (Sep 3, 2016)

I couldn't remember which equipment was used on there which is why I asked. Do these issues also carry over to trains with viewliner equipment?


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## Palmland (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't require perks on a train, but I do expect a professional service staff, well maintained equipment, and good food served with the same amenities as any moderately priced restaurant.


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## Woodcut60 (Sep 3, 2016)

Same is true on the *Silver Star* which I rode in May this year. Big mistake to eliminate the Dining Car! The food in the Café Car was just terrible.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 3, 2016)

Woodcut60 said:


> Same is true on the *Silver Star* which I rode in May this year. Big mistake to eliminate the Dining Car! The food in the Café Car was just terrible.


At least on the star they don't pretend to have a dining car that serves actual food.


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## jis (Sep 3, 2016)

It will be interesting to see if Mr. Moorman disowns unrealistic promises made by his predecessor, like Mr. Gunn disowned his predecessor's promise of glide to self sufficiency.


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## Train2104 (Sep 3, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Woodcut60 said:
> 
> 
> > Same is true on the *Silver Star* which I rode in May this year. Big mistake to eliminate the Dining Car! The food in the Café Car was just terrible.
> ...


I agree with this - I have no problem with removing the dining car if it's advertised as such. But to advertise a dining car the same way as they do for every train and not mention the reduced service is just wrong.


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## JohannFarley (Sep 3, 2016)

What about LSL, has anyone rode that recently? Is that also being misadvertised?


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## tommylicious (Sep 3, 2016)

I refuse to ride the CONO or any other Amtrak long distance route which doesn't have cooked to order proper diner service with a chef.


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## jis (Sep 3, 2016)

Considering that there is very little that is cooked to order you may be on precarious grounds as far as any LD train goes


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 3, 2016)

JohannFarley said:


> What about LSL, has anyone rode that recently? Is that also being misadvertised?


That depends on what you cal "misadvertised." While there a clearly different levels of service at this point, the menus have been updated and what is available is online. Unless there is a last minute substitution, you know what you're in for.

Now, if you're argument is that there is no way to tell what is pre-plated vs made on the train, I can understand that. But as Jis stated, what is actually made on the train vs what is prepared in advance is blurred line.


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## JohannFarley (Sep 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> > What about LSL, has anyone rode that recently? Is that also being misadvertised?
> ...


Well does the LSL have pre-plated or made on train meals. I know it sports a shorter menu than it used to, but what is the status of how the food is prepared on the LSL?


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 3, 2016)

JohannFarley said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > JohannFarley said:
> ...



It is definitely of the preplated/microwaved variety, similar to the Silver Starvation, the Pigeon, the Capitol Punishment in the winter and the (insert pet name for the City Of New Orleans here).

I have the feeling that unless the new CEO reverses course, things will get worse before (and if) they get better.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 3, 2016)

Amtrak needs to update its section on meals,

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241305537990

"On long distance trains, Dining Cars feature seasonal menus created by our team of award-winning chefs. You can even choose from one menu on your outbound trip and make different selections on your return trip.

Start your day onboard with a selection of hot and cold breakfast entrees including eggs and French toast or continental selections such as yogurt or cold cereal. For lunch, choose from a selection of burgers, salads, specialty sandwiches and seasonal entrees.

At dinner, savor steaks and seafood, chicken or vegetarian pasta, accompanied by a fresh salad and rolls. Complement your meal with our selection of cocktails, beer and wine as well as coffee, tea or soft drinks.

Be sure to leave room for dessert. Whether you opt for chocolate or cheesecake, Häagen-Dazs ice cream or Cio Bella Sicilian lemon sorbet, there's something to satisfy every sweet tooth after lunch and dinner."

How much are these quotes accurate? They do have menus for each train that clearly show certain items or lack of certain items (no Amtrak steaks on LSL for example) but there's no note of chef or lack of in any menu I can see. And the opening page is clearly outdated.


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## neroden (Sep 3, 2016)

JohannFarley said:


> What about LSL, has anyone rode that recently? Is that also being misadvertised?


Yes. The chefs are doing their best, but the menu is appalling, and some of the cuts are incomprehensible. It's definitely false advertising because it's below the standards I'd expect from the worst diner or hotel buffet I've ever been to. And I'm talking breakfast!

You can still get an "omelette" but they have no filling: no vegetables and no cheese. I can't imagine that cutting the bags of precut vegetables saved them *anything*.

Obviously as far as I'm concerned the dining cars don't serve any food for lunch or dinner on any trains, because they are incapable of determining whether there is any particular ingredients (unlike nearly every restaurant in the world). It's gross and bizarre that they can't fix this information problem, which isn't difficult to fix.

I just have to take a third carry-on for my food. Which I am allowed to do for free as it is a disability accomodation. But it's super annoying, because this is entirely down to Amtrak's stupidity.


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## Gulfwind2 (Sep 3, 2016)

At this point it seems frivolous to advertise dining car service on long distance trains when all it really boils down to is that Aramark makes a killing putting sodium-packed cafeteria food onto dining cars with kitchen equipment (i.e. the soup warmers in the Superliner diners) that hasn't been used in years. At which point the "food" is scooted in and out of the microwave and served at exorbitant prices to a handful of coach pax and to sleeper pax who are paying terrifically high fares. TWA used to serve some pretty amazing 6-course meals in first class back in the 1970's-80's using convection ovens similar to what Amtrak uses today. What's the difference? Aramark.

VIA Rail uses Sysco to equip the Hudson Bay train's diner when it gets a chef for the high season. The Sysco food served in the Hudson Bay's diner during the summer season requires minimal on-train preparation with the exception of the cooked-to-order eggs and the chicken parmesan, and also is far more appetizing and cheap for coach pax than Amtrak's LD train fare. Amtrak has the ability to clean up its act to some degree but the root of the problem is Aramark in my view.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Sep 3, 2016)

Gulfwind2 said:


> At this point it seems frivolous to advertise dining car service on long distance trains when all it really boils down to is that Aramark makes a killing putting sodium-packed cafeteria food onto dining cars with kitchen equipment (i.e. the soup warmers in the Superliner diners) that hasn't been used in years. At which point the "food" is scooted in and out of the microwave and served at exorbitant prices to a handful of coach pax and to sleeper pax who are paying terrifically high fares. TWA used to serve some pretty amazing 6-course meals in first class back in the 1970's-80's using convection ovens similar to what Amtrak uses today. What's the difference? Aramark.
> 
> VIA Rail uses Sysco to equip the Hudson Bay train's diner when it gets a chef for the high season. The Sysco food served in the Hudson Bay's diner during the summer season requires minimal on-train preparation with the exception of the cooked-to-order eggs and the chicken parmesan, and also is far more appetizing and cheap for coach pax than Amtrak's LD train fare. Amtrak has the ability to clean up its act to some degree but the root of the problem is Aramark in my view.


I kind of disagree here. It's more about what the company ordering is willing to pay for. You can see Aramark or Sysco food trucks unloading at some very high end places. Along with your state penitentiary. These companies can provide you with incredibly high end options or deliver the food for people behind bars.


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## the_traveler (Sep 3, 2016)

George K said:


> RickIronton said:
> 
> 
> > And, yes, I have contacted customer service.
> ...


I hope you contacted Customer RELATIONS, as that is the department who should be contacted - not Customer Service (i.e. phone reservation agents).


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## George K (Sep 3, 2016)

And their response:


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## Gulfwind2 (Sep 3, 2016)

Long Train Runnin' said:


> Gulfwind2 said:
> 
> 
> > At this point it seems frivolous to advertise dining car service on long distance trains when all it really boils down to is that Aramark makes a killing putting sodium-packed cafeteria food onto dining cars with kitchen equipment (i.e. the soup warmers in the Superliner diners) that hasn't been used in years. At which point the "food" is scooted in and out of the microwave and served at exorbitant prices to a handful of coach pax and to sleeper pax who are paying terrifically high fares. TWA used to serve some pretty amazing 6-course meals in first class back in the 1970's-80's using convection ovens similar to what Amtrak uses today. What's the difference? Aramark.
> ...


Point taken, but how bad do things need to get for Amtrak to at least consider jumping ship to a different caterer? They won't seem to follow VIA Rail's lead (in no way am I advocating for 4 star dining akin to what one might see on the Canadian), and Iowa Pacific is making a stand-out of itself in how it handles the Hoosier State's food service. If Amtrak wants to ignore the examples of IPH, VIA, and instead follow a pattern of resistance towards providing good service, and if they won't seek out a higher-quality catering service, then there might as well be no attempt to advertise dining car service as being a feature of service on most LD trains.


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## OBS (Sep 3, 2016)

The only food that Aramark is directly involved in preparing (AFAIK), is the First Class Acela meals, prepared in the airport flight kitchens. Everything else is just purchased and distributed by Aramark based on Specifications and contracts arranged by Amtrak F&B dept.


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## AlanB (Sep 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> > Well does the LSL have pre-plated or made on train meals. I know it sports a shorter menu than it used to, but what is the status of how the food is prepared on the LSL?
> ...


To my knowledge, the Silver Star only offers traditional cafe car food. That is nothing like the meals currently being served on the LSL. Yes, the LSL meals are downgraded some from what one got in the dining cars of late. But, while preplated, the meals are still a bit above traditional cafe car foods. I've never seen an half a chicken or a fish dinner on a cafe car menu, but I've had both on the LSL in the full length cafe cars that now run in place of the old dining cars.


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## jis (Sep 3, 2016)

I noticed that the Silver Star has also a few additional items now.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 3, 2016)

jis said:


> I noticed that the Silver Star has also a few additional items now.


Would it be possible to get a Diner Lite on the SS? Would that make much of a difference?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 3, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed that the Silver Star has also a few additional items now.
> ...


Do you want one? I would rather have just the cafe car than the current version of diner lite.

The initial diner lite years ago on the cardinal was ok... But the current "selections" are just sad.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 3, 2016)

Long Train Runnin' said:


> Gulfwind2 said:
> 
> 
> > At this point it seems frivolous to advertise dining car service on long distance trains when all it really boils down to is that Aramark makes a killing putting sodium-packed cafeteria food onto dining cars with kitchen equipment (i.e. the soup warmers in the Superliner diners) that hasn't been used in years. At which point the "food" is scooted in and out of the microwave and served at exorbitant prices to a handful of coach pax and to sleeper pax who are paying terrifically high fares. TWA used to serve some pretty amazing 6-course meals in first class back in the 1970's-80's using convection ovens similar to what Amtrak uses today. What's the difference? Aramark.
> ...



I second that. My daughter went to a college where the education was very good, but the food (at least in the cafeteria) was horrible. Worst institutional food I ever had. It was the worst food of all of the different colleges to which she applied. I won't give the name of the foodservice company, but it was a French company, and they should know better than to serve lousy food.

On the other hand, when time for graduation rolled around, they had a reception one evening for the graduates and their parents, and the food was excellent! So if they wanted to serve good food to the students, they could have. My daughter, however, became a connoisseur of the Sheetz MTO offerings as a supplement to what they dished up in the cafeteria.

Of course, it's possible that Aramark is not giving Amtrak good value for the lower end stuff Amtrak is ordering. We would need a lot more detailed information to really know what's happening. As far as I can tell, the quality and selection of the offerings have gone down somewhat over the ;last couple of years, but it's not quite the inedible swill that some people here complain about.


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## AlanB (Sep 3, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


I wouldn't want a diner lite if it were the only food service car on the SS. But as long as it is in addition to a regular cafe car, it would be a welcome addition IMHO. Yes, it will never compare to a full dining car, but the diner lite car still has some advantages over a cafe car when it comes to preparing meals that aren't just microwaved hamburgers and pizza's.


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## tommylicious (Sep 4, 2016)

The future of all Amtrak long distance food service: http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w529.h352.jpg

And this is why we chose VIA over Amtrak for our fall trip. Being forced to eat prison food is not our idea of a vacation.


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## tommylicious (Sep 4, 2016)

I just wish Pullman still ran on the CONO.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 4, 2016)

tommylicious said:


> And this is why we chose VIA over Amtrak for our fall trip. Being forced to eat prison food is not our idea of a vacation.


Have you ever been in prison before Tommy? I haven't but comparing cafe car food to prison food is really an exaggeration IMO.I can't help it if some people here are too good for microwaved food. I'm not saying the food on Amtrak couldn't be better (for a reasonable cost) but still.



tommylicious said:


> I just wish Pullman still ran on the CONO.


I get why the SS and LSL lost their diner cars because the Heritage diners are old and shouldn't be running. But why is the CONO (a Superliner) not able to have a full diner? Should we be worried about Superliner cars losing diner service next (based on previous precedence, the CL would probably be the first to lose its diner among the Superliners)?


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 4, 2016)

The CONO had its Chef removed as part of the "Cut your way to Prosperity" program.

The CCC is still able to turn out full meals as in previous times, but

is being run as a Diner Lite like the Cardinal. It sucks!


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 4, 2016)

AlanB said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want one? I would rather have just the cafe car than the current version of diner lite.
> ...


I guess it depends on your definition of "Diner Lite" - When I rode the Cardinal years ago I thought the Diner Lite was pretty decent. And then I would agree with you.

But currently what is offered on the City of New Orleans is pretty dismal. I've eaten in the Diner once since the changes. It sounds like the Cardinal now has a similar menu. I personally see no positives to what is currently offered on the City of New Orleans.


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## trainman74 (Sep 4, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> My daughter went to a college where the education was very good, but the food (at least in the cafeteria) was horrible. Worst institutional food I ever had. It was the worst food of all of the different colleges to which she applied. I won't give the name of the foodservice company, but it was a French company, and they should know better than to serve lousy food.


Sodexo? They ran the cafeteria at my former job, which was pretty good -- I'm sure it helps when they don't have a "captive audience" (i.e., students who are on a meal plan).


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## The Chief (Sep 4, 2016)

RickIronton said:


> The City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Chicago disillusioned me on more long distance train travel.
> 
> ,,, the reduction of amenities for long distance travel.


*Rick*, your Topic Title is the first time in a few years we've seen "Amtrak," "sleeper," and "perks," in the same headline.


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## rrdude (Sep 4, 2016)

Sodexo, Aramark, Delaware North, ANY food service provider will/can provide EXACTLY what is contracted for, be it "prison food", or top notch catering. It has NOTHING to do with the particular caterer, just the CONTRACT... Oversight is important, as virtually ALL will try to cut corners, but many campuses, corporations, and institutions hold them to the letter of the contract. One CANNOT blame the f/s supplier, for crappy food, IMHO, they are only providing WHAT is contracted for.


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## Blackwolf (Sep 5, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > And this is why we chose VIA over Amtrak for our fall trip. Being forced to eat prison food is not our idea of a vacation.
> ...


I have never been charged with a crime or convicted to prison, jail or in any other incarcerated position, but I HAVE had Prison Food thanks to the *Sysco-supplied* stainless-steel polished kitchens of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation!

Long story short, through the course of my job as a firefighter for the wonderful, wide world of California, yes I have had the privilege (and curse) of being detailed to a prison camp eating ACTUAL Prison Food and thus qualify as a Subject Matter Expert on this particular subject. Suffice to say, no. Amtrak is not quite to the level of Prison Food at his current time. And the supplier has NOTHING to do with the quality or the type of food (as referenced earlier in this post.) Sorry to say to the non-believers, but Sysco and Aramark pretty much mirror each others program and there is absolutely no difference on the food type or quality side that you, me or the critic for the New York Times can pick out between them. It is all about which chapter in the catalog that the contracted buyer chooses. If you're shopping in the high-end "Top of the Mark" section of the book then that is what you're gonna get. Alternatively, if Amtrak is nosing about in the "Chowchilla" chapter, you get the drift. ^_^

No, Aramark or Sysco... No difference at all. This is all Amtrak (and the leash-holders in Congress.)


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 5, 2016)

Maybe Amtrak needs to look outside the box when it comes to stocking Diner-Lites or whatever we're going to call them and Lounges.

I can go to Walmart and for $2.50 get a variety of prepared frozen meals from either Boston Market or Marie Calendars (or however the hell that is spelled) that are pretty good, even before any doctoring. Likewise in their Deli I can get a variety of Titanic-size Salads for about $4 that are not only very good but are very large-will feed 2 average adults. Let's look at prepared sandwiches. Again a wide variety that are not only good but again are very reasonably priced. Now let's go over to the actual Deli Counter which is LOADED with various items that can easily be portioned and provisioned along the way-find me ANY route that does not pass by at least several Walmarts/Sams.

Get the politics and corporate onion layers out of they way, get a system like this running and guess what-HAPPY PASSENGERS. Happy passengers who will gladly travel Amtrak over and over.


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## Reno89502 (Sep 5, 2016)

I have a idea. Let's let Iowa Pacific take over some of the long distance routes. They know how to run a dining car!!! (I.E., Hoosier State)


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 5, 2016)

Well, after reading all the posts pro and con on the down grading of the food on the LD Trains, I've decided to cast my vote with the contract out ALL of the food and drink served in the Diners and Cafes on LD Routes crowd.

The hard working Food Service OBS employees can work as SCAs or Coach

Attendants although the Chefs might not like that prospect at all, but since they've dropped the Diner on the Starvation and Lake Shore and the Chef was cut on the CONO, I'd venture that a job with Seniority at Amtrak beats a lay off or termination!! YMMV


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## rrdude (Sep 5, 2016)

Jim you could retain Amtrak's kitchen staff, and STILL contract out to Sysco, USFoods, Aramark, Sodexho, et. all, just need to CHOOSE better quality entrees, menu items, I have no doubt Amtrak staff CAN DO THE JOB, just right now, they are given next-to-nothing to work with


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## Ziv (Sep 5, 2016)

I work with a group called Meals on Wheels to deliver hot and cold meals to people who otherwise might not have enough healthy meals. I found out that our deliveries were actually coming from the county jail's kitchen and it was indeed "prison food". Oddly enough, it looks pretty poor.

Both of the universities I attended here on the east coast used Aramark and they had fair food quality, not every selection was good, but some were fairly good most of the time. I think Aramark did a better job than my county's jail kitchen, no surprise.

I was on the Cap Limited and the EB this year and I have to say, their dining car food is better than Aramark. It isn't worth what Amtrak charges, but you can't eat elsewhere of course...

Both the steak and the crab cake were ok to fairly good, though not great. Breakfast was a bit better. So I don't think sleeper customers have it bad, just not as good as they used to have it. And hopefully we will see an improvement in the next couple years.

My first memories of sleeper cars were on the Great Northern Empire Builder in 1974 and 1976. I was just a kid, but the service and the food were phenomenal back then. Won't see those levels again.



Blackwolf said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > tommylicious said:
> ...


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 5, 2016)

Doesn't Amtrak use Aramark?


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## jis (Sep 5, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Doesn't Amtrak use Aramark?


If you happen to have read this thread, just to recap, you'd notice that in message # 33, Gulfwind2 made what would appear to be a baseless claim that Amtrak food problem was because it used Aramark. This claim was shot down multiple ways by various people with first hand experience with the food service industry.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 5, 2016)

jis said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't Amtrak use Aramark?
> ...


I'm asking a question... Does Amtrak use Aramark? the poster above me said Amtrak food is better than Aramark... That's what prompted my question.

If Aramark provided the Lamb Shank, crab cakes, mahi mahi entree, and Beechers Pasta and Cheese from the previous "chef inspired" menus than Aramark is fully capable of delivering quality dishes that can be prepared with minimal staffing in Amtrak kitchens.


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## PVD (Sep 5, 2016)

They are capable of providing whatever you are willing to pay for, and like any other supplier meed to be monitored for compliance with what has been agreed to.


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## Manny T (Sep 5, 2016)

How does Iowa Pacific do it on the Hoosier State? After all the Cardinal runs CHI-IND 3 days a week, Hoosier State runs the same route 4 days a week, and food on HS is FAR superior. Like light years ahead.

Here's a pic of my breakfast. For dinner, I had delicious chicken picatta and grilled veggies (3 courses actually) that I would describe as restaurant quality. VERY tasty. And beverages, including alcoholic beverages, were gratis for the whole trip in Business Class. Open bar folks. And service was terrific.

How does Iowa Pacific do it?


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## JohannFarley (Sep 5, 2016)

Iowa pacific though is a whole different story. It's like the model for what other trains should be. The thing is that the hoosier state is a fairly short line, so (I would think, at least) the running costs are far less than any amtrak LD route that would have a diner. Now of course, and I haven't checked the ticket prices for HS, but I assume it's cheaper than a sleeper, so the question arises as to how the money is managed for the HS as opposed to amtrak LD trains. And you have to think about scale. Amtrak has to balance profits and deficits from all of their LD trains that would have diners along with their regular regional service while IP only has the HS to worry about (in this respect, as they have all the other short lines under their belt.)


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## MARC Rider (Sep 5, 2016)

Blackwolf said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > tommylicious said:
> ...


If this is the case, then it should be easy to see exactly how much money Amtrak is saving by getting the almost-prison-chow selection. That can be balaced against the revenue that's lost from passengers driven away.

Of course, as I've mentioned before, I think the real issue for Cong. Mica is that he'll never be satisfied until OBS are compensated like all foods er vice workers, and they ate no longer represented by unions.


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## PVD (Sep 5, 2016)

And just like movie theaters and sports arenas, the prices will still be very high, and the money taken away from hundreds of workers will go into the pockets of a select few people, and we will likely gain nothing.


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## tommylicious (Sep 6, 2016)

Is Iowa Pacific's staff unionized?



Manny T said:


> How does Iowa Pacific do it on the Hoosier State? After all the Cardinal runs CHI-IND 3 days a week, Hoosier State runs the same route 4 days a week, and food on HS is FAR superior. Like light years ahead.
> 
> Here's a pic of my breakfast. For dinner, I had delicious chicken picatta and grilled veggies (3 courses actually) that I would describe as restaurant quality. VERY tasty. And beverages, including alcoholic beverages, were gratis for the whole trip in Business Class. Open bar folks. And service was terrific.
> 
> How does Iowa Pacific do it?


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

tommylicious said:


> Is Iowa Pacific's staff unionized?


AFAIK No.


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## railiner (Sep 6, 2016)

Ziv said:


> I work with a group called Meals on Wheels to deliver hot and cold meals to people who otherwise might not have enough healthy meals. I found out that our deliveries were actually coming from the county jail's kitchen and it was indeed "prison food". Oddly enough, it looks pretty poor.
> 
> Both of the universities I attended here on the east coast used Aramark and they had fair food quality, not every selection was good, but some were fairly good most of the time. I think Aramark did a better job than my county's jail kitchen, no surprise.
> 
> ...


I would agree that the Empire Builder served good food back in 1974 and '76....but point out that it was an Amtrak train since May of 1971.


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

Ziv said:


> My first memories of sleeper cars were on the _Great Northern Empire Builder in 1974 and 1976_. I was just a kid, but the service and the food were phenomenal back then. Won't see those levels again.


Suffice it to say that in 1974-76, Empire builder was not a Great Northern train, but an Amtrak train. Amtrak took it over in 1971.


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## PVD (Sep 6, 2016)

Look at the ebb and flow of meal service on the airlines. Quality, quantity, availability (if any) and price are all over the map depending on what they believe at that moment will offer the best competitive advantage against cost for a specific route and/or service class. They are almost always prepared (meals) or packed (in the cases of snack boxes) in a caterer's commissary. They can vary from excellent to terrible depending on what the cost target is that they are trying to hit.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Sep 6, 2016)

Manny T said:


> Here's a pic of my breakfast.


The only part Amtrak would take from that picture, is offering only 1/2 a glass of OJ.


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## Gulfwind2 (Sep 6, 2016)

Iowa Pacific's HS staff is not unionized and some of its on board personnel are "transient" between the company's various other passenger (tourist) operations and the HS. Of course it is much easier to keep a non-union staff happy when the train doesn't run overnight. This is where it gets tricky because union intervention has historically been needed to carve out contracts ensuring that on-train staff get enough rest while working a train between terminals which may be 2000+ miles away from one another.


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## PVD (Sep 6, 2016)

Unionization an excuse that many managers use to hide their own lack of abilities and creativity. Airlines that are heavily unionized and also some that are not unionized routinely appear at both the top and bottom of customer satisfaction surveys. It is all about the culture that companies create over time.


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

Suffice it to say that Iowa Pacific is no universal panacea that some people think it is. I suspect that initially it will not venture into any of the western transcons, and will probably try to start with less than 24 hour runs as a starter.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 6, 2016)

IP Does have plenty of experience with overnight trains though. The city of New Orleans services, the Ocassional run to Florida, Denver, Albuquerque, and of course the various private charters.

I'm not saying they have everything figured out, but they seem fully capable of operating overnight services.


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

There is a difference though between operating an occasional overnight service and a daily overnight service. I am almost certain that if they do move into it, they will ease into it.

I would be very surprised if they bid on anything unless FRA makes significant changes addressing the issues raised by Ed. Currently it is almost impossible to get the necessary operating cost projections out of Amtrak in any meaningful form, for example.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 6, 2016)

What are the differences? IP ran a regular service that required a regular paid staff (not volunteeers like on a one time excursion). They had to regularly stock and service the train in Chicago. They had to provide regular housing for staff in New Orleans.

And all of that cutrenty applies to the Hoosier State as well. The staff still has to overnight outside of their home.

They would need more staff and more equipment, but I don't see any major changes. Care to point them out?


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

OK you win. There is no difference Iowa pacific should be able to start serving tomorrow. Why aren't they?


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## Ziv (Sep 6, 2016)

Railiner, you and Jis are right of course. I don't know why I thought the EB was still a Great Northern operation at that time. It just seemed so luxurious then compared to now.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 6, 2016)

jis said:


> Suffice it to say that Iowa Pacific is no universal panacea that some people think it is. I suspect that initially it will not venture into any of the western transcons, and will probably try to start with less than 24 hour runs as a starter.


So that narrows it down to the CL, LSL, CONO, Auto train. and Palmetto?


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## jis (Sep 6, 2016)

I don;t think either Auto Train or Palmetto will be on offer. I think the most likely will be CONO. I am dubious about the LSL too. Too complicated requires a lot of yard work at Albany and involves Sunnyside.


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## OBS (Sep 6, 2016)

Might actually be a welcome improvement over the status of the current CONO...


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## railiner (Sep 6, 2016)

Ziv said:


> Railiner, you and Jis are right of course. I don't know why I thought the EB was still a Great Northern operation at that time. It just seemed so luxurious then compared to now.


Lets see....IIRC, back then, they had crisp linen tablecloths and napkins...stainless steel flatware....real glassware for drinks...Amtrak "National" pattern (blue and white) china settings....fresh flowers....extensive menus of food freshly prepared on board....a full level of service with 3 or 4 chefs and assistants, at least 4 waiters, and a steward in charge, serving 48 patrons....

Yeah...I could see why you found it luxurious...


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 6, 2016)

OBS said:


> Might actually be a welcome improvement over the status of the current CONO...


I've ridden the IP version of the City, and the current Amtrak version... Trust me. It would be a HUGE improvement. I got lucky though... I had a great Waitress in the diner, who was working super hard to get everyone served by herself, even though she was the only one in the entire diner.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 7, 2016)

Iowa pacific could make a serious go at this because of the cruise traffic out of New Orleans. The train could be part of a pre or post cruise package.

There is a solid basis of ridership for many college towns much like the Hoosier state: champaign, Carbondale, Memphis, Jackson, and New Orleans.


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## peconicstation (Sep 8, 2016)

The big question with Iowa Pacific, and the upgraded services offered on it's version of The Hoosier State is how long can they sustain this for ?

This is a state funded route, and as such is subject to political whims.

Food and Beverage services have always been money losers, but back in the day, were a source of pride, and bragging rights by the private railroads.

If we look back to the early 1970's, the then Auto Train Corporation hit a grand slam with it's Lorton to Sanford Florida train, and it turned a profit, (before it launched

it's money loosing Louisville run).

That said, one thing the original Auto Train was not known for was it's food, it kept costs down by serving dinner buffet style and using Marriot as it's caterer.

Ken


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 9, 2016)

peconicstation said:


> That said, one thing the original Auto Train was not known for was it's food, it kept costs down by serving dinner buffet style and using Marriot as it's caterer.
> 
> Ken


I would venture to guess Marriott could sling much better chow that what's being heaved out today!


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 9, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > That said, one thing the original Auto Train was not known for was it's food, it kept costs down by serving dinner buffet style and using Marriot as it's caterer.
> ...


I would strongly agree. In fact some of the best food and service I've ever experienced was provided by their JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton brands.

Source: Numerous stays at nearly every level and type of Marriott brand (Marriott Hotels & Resorts, TownePlace, Fairfield Inn, Springhill Suites, Residence Inn, Courtyard, Courtyard City Center, Renaissance, Autograph Collection, JW Marriott, Gaylord Hotels, and Ritz-Carlton) across the US and several other countries.


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## Eric S (Sep 9, 2016)

I believe that Marriott catering merged into Sodexo in the 1990s.


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## PVD (Sep 9, 2016)

Contract food service business was indeed spun off and merged with Sodexo in the late 90's. Like any other contract caterer the client sets the parameters. Marriott split into 2 parts, lodging is seperate from the food service and contract catering entity. Different way of running than hospitality, where you are the standard setter. Unless meeting and banquet business is very strong, food and beverage are not great profit centers in the hospitality trade. Many hotels lose money providing good restaurants because it drives occupancy, in good food cities, they don't do that well because guests have so much to choose from

.


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## john small berries (Sep 9, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > That said, one thing the original Auto Train was not known for was it's food, it kept costs down by serving dinner buffet style and using Marriot as it's caterer.
> ...


Easy to say if you never rode the old Auto Train. The food was nothing to write home about - kind of like eating in a truck stop buffet.


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## PVD (Sep 9, 2016)

Which is actually very close to one of the original core businesses that morphed into Marriott. They were the "Hot Shoppes" chain which ran highway rest area restaurants. The merger with host creating Host-Marriott made them a major player in the highway rest area trade.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 9, 2016)

PVD said:


> Many hotels lose money providing good restaurants because it drives occupancy, in good food cities, they don't do that well because guests have so much to choose from
> 
> .


Oho, so it isn't just railroad dining cars that have this problem! Though at least with hotels, if you don't like the food, you just go down the street for alternatives.


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## PVD (Sep 9, 2016)

That's a huge part of their problem. Most cities have lots of great choices for meals. Lots of sports and entertainment venues have partnered with popular local food establishments to keep a higher percentage of the patrons buying inside. They were already killing a captive audience on price, but started to see a shift of patrons eating more before/after entering. Food options seem to be way better than they used to be. (quality and selection, not price)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Sep 9, 2016)

Interestingly, in Asia many of the best restaurants are in hotels. Whether they are funded/subsidized by the hotel, I couldn't answer. I know that there has been a push in Chicago for better hotel restaurants, perhaps driven by the Asian experience and tourists. Now the restaurants in railway hotels, who knows (see, staying on topic).

Back on the Marriott topic, they ran Great America well...


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## PVD (Sep 9, 2016)

I've been in some pretty good hotel restaurants, they just have a hard time competing in some cities. Some of the hotels I've gone to meetings at where rather than do a separate meeting room service, they give us part of the restaurant, and a shortened menu. I thought that was good, it moved food in the restaurant which usually keeps quality up.


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## trainman74 (Sep 9, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > That said, one thing the original Auto Train was not known for was it's food, it kept costs down by serving dinner buffet style and using Marriot as it's caterer.
> ...


The Marriott foodservice division is now Sodexo, which has already been mentioned both favorably and unfavorably in this thread -- as has also been mentioned in this thread, it really depends on how much the institution for which they're providing the food service is willing to pay.


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## PVD (Sep 9, 2016)

What I really think would satisfy most people is some sense of consistency, both of food presentation/quality, and service. With the exception of the Auto Train, and Acela F/C, where things are generally (not always) pretty good, comments are all over the map. Same route different day can be 180 degree difference, forget about route to route. And that is certainly not restricted to food. Ice, water, blankets, boarding procedures, and so much else just don't seem to be delivered in the same way. I understand that sometimes equipment types or unique situations dictate adjustment, but it seems to be the rule not the exception. Like the bottled water thread, it seems that pretty much every SCA had a way to make sure their passengers got water if they wanted it. But in a number of different ways. Staff should not have to find ways to help passengers (they usually do pretty well) it should be the standard procedure.


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## me_little_me (Sep 10, 2016)

As someone who spent 5 nights in BRs in the last 2 weeks including 3 in th last 3 days, my biggest complaint is the lack of variety. I'd be happy if the trains had different menus - or at least some differences. At least we encountered only one waiter who should be working another job!

Hey, the waitress on the Crescent topped the chocolate mousse with a fresh strawberry.


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## willem (Sep 10, 2016)

Alright, the last two posts asked for, respectively, more consistency and less consistency.

(Yes, I understand they were addressing different issues. In context, I agree with both.)


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## PVD (Sep 10, 2016)

Thank you. It's sort of like airlines playing different movies Eastbound and Westbound, or Northbound -Southbound (depending on the route) You don't want to see the same movie, but you do want the choices to be of a certain quality. Even one or two "regional specialties" on a route could add a lot to an otherwise dreary national menu.


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## RichardK (Sep 10, 2016)

I have been in retail or customer service related positions over the last 32 years. Reducing the level of service and amenities has an immediate cost reduction affect.

However, the true result is only realized within a year or two after the customers have migrated away and business is lost. Many companies have learned this lesson the hard way.


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## CoachSlumber (Sep 12, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> IP Does have plenty of experience with overnight trains though. The city of New Orleans services, the Ocassional run to Florida, Denver, Albuquerque, and of course the various private charters.
> 
> I'm not saying they have everything figured out, but they seem fully capable of operating overnight services.


Well, first, noticed that their self-sustained New Orleans scheduled sleeper service was discontinued. They can do it, but not profitably on their own, and under Amtrak aegis, there's no way they would be able to run a shop without union contracts and work rules. That is the prohibitive expense of running full service overnight trains. The Hoosier must have some kind of carve-out, maybe because it is a state-subsidized service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 12, 2016)

Well first off... No passenger transit in this country shows a profit correct? So I'm not going to hold that against them.

Second... We don't know they ended the service due to financial reasons. It could be Amtrak wouldn't cooperate with them on this service.

But my argument had nothing to do with money... It was the simple fact that IP has shown that they are capable of a regularly scheduled overnight service that includes full service sleeper, diner, and lounge services.


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## Gulfwind2 (Sep 12, 2016)

CoachSlumber said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > IP Does have plenty of experience with overnight trains though. The city of New Orleans services, the Ocassional run to Florida, Denver, Albuquerque, and of course the various private charters.
> ...


Iowa Pacific's New Orleans-Chicago pullman service was profitable but was discontinued because Amtrak had been attempting for months to have the service done away with by artificially inflating Iowa Pacific's costs to run it. Amtrak was combative all throughout in allowing IPH to maintain its cars on Amtrak property which IPH was paying for the use of. Amtrak also gave Iowa Pacific special higher rates for hauling more than two cars on the CoNO and added a Heritage baggage car to the regular consist in an effort to justify adding a second P42 to each consist: an added expense which they started billing IPH for. The moral of the story here is that IPH and other companies are very capable of being successful in offering a profitable sleeping car product with top-notch amenities, but when Amtrak or other third parties try to take the role of the middleman to an extreme, the service cannot coexist with these forces.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 12, 2016)

My concern with IP or any other private operator using vintage stock is the stock itself-while it might be of major historic value and enjoyable to ride, the maintenance costs have to be outrageous. Of course buying new stock would be even worse financially, not to mention the possibility of having to wait endless years like Amtrak is for the V2 stuff.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 12, 2016)

People make that argument all the time but I've yet to see any data to support it. For example... Does the state of North Carolina pay more for maintenance on their heritage fleet vs. other state supported corridors that own or lease their own equipment?

How much more does it cost to maintain the Pacific Parlour Cars vs. the sightseer lounge cars?


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## PVD (Sep 13, 2016)

Lack of data transparency has been a recurring theme on this board on many accounts. It is a logical assumption that as any fleet ages it gets more costly to maintain, wear and tear takes its toll, and parts get harder and harder to source. But most of Amtrak's fleet falls into the same category, with the difference being quantity and commonality. Not a lot of one or two of groups. That has been one of the challenges for the PPC.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Sep 13, 2016)

I have to ask, if this so easy to be profitable, then why isn't GrandLuxe still around? Amongst other offerings, they had a few high-end sleepers on the Silver Meteor consists.

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/AM_Content_C/1241267386375/1237608345018


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## dlagrua (Sep 13, 2016)

I predict further efficiency improvements and cost cutting moves in the coming years. The future of Amtrak may be to have a private contractor staff and operate all of the sleepers and dining cars with Amtrak staff running the coaches. The Chicago Metro Lounge is now being run by an outside service. The two people stationed at the front desk may be Amtrak employees. Amtrak hires about 20,000 workers and if congress votes to reduce this workforce, it opens the door to private contractors.


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## neroden (Sep 13, 2016)

Pullman Company redux?


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## dlagrua (Sep 14, 2016)

neroden said:


> Pullman Company redux?


Of course my post is all speculation, but what I envision is Amtrak owning the equipment and contracting out the operation of the sleepers and dining cars. I am in no way advocating for this, claiming that it is fair (or the right move); but if you look at the constant cuts that the service has been forced to make, it may very well be the next step. Only time will tell. The good news is that both presidential candidates are advocating for improvements in the nations rail transportation infrastructure.They need to be held to that promise.


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## jis (Sep 14, 2016)

A President can however only go so far without active support from Cognress. Reportedly there are only 40 or so seats in Congress that is likely to change. I wonder if that is enough to change Congress's behavior which has shown no fortitude for not being swayed to wild corners by a minority of its members.


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## railiner (Sep 14, 2016)

dlagrua said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Pullman Company redux?
> ...


I don't think it's impossible, but can't imagine how a private firm could do better than Amtrak fiscally, when it would have to add the cost of its own administration to what Amtrak already has in place, even though Amtrak would no longer be providing most of that support.

Such an operation would probably have to raise fares considerably, say to the level VIA charges. That would result in moving the sleeper market upscale, and out of reach of most travelers, other than affluent tourists.

Similar to the Canadian....


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## CoachSlumber (Sep 14, 2016)

tommylicious said:


> I just wish Pullman still ran on the CONO.


But note that in the end, it had gotten crazy expensive.


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## jis (Sep 14, 2016)

railiner said:


> I don't think it's impossible, but can't imagine how a private firm could do better than Amtrak fiscally, when it would have to add the cost of its own administration to what Amtrak already has in place, even though Amtrak would no longer be providing most of that support.


One of the big costs is labor, and there is considerable room for savings by using non-union labor with interesting (and perhaps distressing) modified working rules which no Union would ever agree to.



> Such an operation would probably have to raise fares considerably, say to the level VIA charges. That would result in moving the sleeper market upscale, and out of reach of most travelers, other than affluent tourists.
> 
> Similar to the Canadian....


However, reading this forum I gather that there are plenty of people around here who fall under the category of rich enough to be able to afford the Canadian, so it should be fine by them. It would be fine by the likes of me as long such a service is not subsidized exclusively without providing any normal travel level fare Coach service. If all that one wants to run is luxury Sleeper service, that should be done sans subsidy on ones own dime.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 18, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > Many hotels lose money providing good restaurants because it drives occupancy, in good food cities, they don't do that well because guests have so much to choose from
> ...


To go further with this idea, consider my experience last week, on a business trip. I was staying at a hotel brand designed for business travelers. Not upscale, but comfortable, no Motel 6 here. (and, by the way Motel 6 is fine for what it offers.) They didn't offer full food service, but rather what they called a "bistro," which was kind of like an Amtrak cafe car, if you had more room to spread out. The menu looked like a cross between a diner-lite and the cafe car. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to sample it, because when I went there for breakfast, there was only one attendant staffing the place, and the process in place did not seem to be designed for speed. With two people ahead of me, I figured it might be lunch time before I could get breakfast (OK, so i'm exaggerating a bit), so I bailed, went across the street to a Bob Evans, and was served very quickly diner-style by a real waitress. My equivalent breakfast as even a dollar cheaper.

I should point out that I doubt that the attendant at the hotel "bistro" was some sort of lazy overpaid union drone, either.

Hotels, of course, can operate successfully without providing food service, especially if they're located if they're located in strip mall suburbia like the one where I stayed, with lots and lots of choices. A long distance train, on the other hand will lose a lot of business if they can't get the passengers fed.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 18, 2016)

Yep, Live like a King on Government per Diem!

I remember it well!

And BTW, what is the going rate now days for Travel Per Diem?


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## MARC Rider (Sep 19, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Yep, Live like a King on Government per Diem!
> 
> I remember it well!
> 
> And BTW, what is the going rate now days for Travel Per Diem?


"Live like a king?" Not quite.

Per diem rates depends on where you're staying. Google "CONUS per diem rates federal travel" or something like that and you should get what you're looking for.

BTW, if the hotel offers a free breakfast and you eat it, they take $10 off your meal allowance.


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## willem (Sep 19, 2016)

According to GSA, it's $89 for lodging and $51 for M&IE for 2016, for RUS. Next year (October 01 for Uncle Sam), lodging goes up $2.

I never had per diem docked because the hotel offered a meal. In my organization, that made Homewood Suites and Residence Inn establishments popular hotels.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 19, 2016)

willem said:


> According to GSA, it's $89 for lodging and $51 for M&IE for 2016, for RUS. Next year (October 01 for Uncle Sam), lodging goes up $2.
> 
> I never had per diem docked because the hotel offered a meal. In my organization, that made Homewood Suites and Residence Inn establishments popular hotels.


The city where I was staying was $106 for lodging, $59 for M&IE (meals in incidental expenses).

Washington DC area is $222 for lodging, $69 for M&IE. I once organized meetings for an advisory committee I was managing. (Well, we actually had a contractor who did the legwork.) Most of the time, we had to hold the meeting in northern Virginia suburbs because we couldn't find any hotels in Washington that offered rates at the per diem allowance.

For many years, our agency, too, had a "wink-wink-nod-nod" practice of not caring about hotel-supplied meals. Then they changed the voucher forms, and we specifically have to list any meals provided, which is included in the voucher statement we sign attesting that the claim is true. It's not worth it to me to lie on an official form with my signature on it. This also applies to conferences where meals are served, so I'm getting my M&IE docked for the two lousy rubber chicken lunches they served up on my trip last week. Believe me, Amtrak diner chow was better than those lunches.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Sep 19, 2016)

Moderator, this topic is so far off the original topic, why is it still up or at least change the name of the topic.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 19, 2016)

Thanks, I think you know I was being sarcastic with the "Live like a King" Remark!( And lazy about looking up the going rate!),

The Hotels I used to stay at while traveling on Uncle Sam's Dime were always at a Government Rate as were the Rent Cars, and Tickets for Travel.(Airline,Rail etc.)I did have a Government Credit Card and with enough lead time could get a Cash advance for "Misc. expenses, ie taxis/local transportation,laundry/dry cleaning,tips.)

.

The point about the "Free Breakfast" coming off your Meal Allowance speaks for itself, nickel and dime stuff!.

As for holding conferences and meetings in the DC Area, the "Cross Keys Inn" between Baltimore and DC was a Popular venue for many Government functions, but of course I didn't stay in a Room since I lived in the area.


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## Hytec (Sep 19, 2016)

25 years ago, I had a one day meeting (10:00-4:00) in Crystal City, VA (Arlington). Working on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, I compared expenses between flying and the Crescent....

Air: $1200 R/T, Motel $180/night (2 nights) = $1560.

Crescent: $750 R/T Sleeper (SDL-WAS) = $750.

(Flying required spending two nights due to flight schedules.)

When I applied for the cash advance, the finance manager asked why I was taking "A TRAIN?". I showed him the above figures, and he said "Have a nice trip". I did, and continued to do so for every meeting with my customer until I retired.


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