# Seating Protocol



## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

Will someone explain to me why I cannot board the Amtrak Crescent and find a seat that appeals to me...rather than have a power hungry conductor tell me to sit two-abreast in a packed area of those who's phones and computers are constantly buzzing...when there are plenty of empty seats in other areas of the same car or in other cars...? Why not make the long-distance ride ENJOYABLE instead of turning it into an exercise in patience...? I don't want to hear "there are large numbers of people ahead" ...if that is true(which I have found not to be the case most of the time), deal with it when it happens. It is my belief that they bunch people up to make their job a little easier...and the customer's journey rotten. Then they can go sit in the back of the Cafe Car and shoot the bull never checking on whether or not anyone on the train is playing their "device" without headphones, never announcing stops, smoking breaks, etc. I love riding the train, but when is the passenger ever given the respect that they deserve...? Some folks say that assigned seating reservations through the website would be a welcomed option...I think self-seating would be a great (and easy) place to start to address the issue.


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## cpotisch (Jan 29, 2019)

Wow, just wow. Let’s say they have a group of eight people boarding in a few minutes. Do you really think it makes sense to wait until they board, AND THEN have to shuffle around all the people who were sitting there? That is a total time consuming pain for everyone involved. And why would the crew go out of their way to bunch people together if there’s space? That’s just extra work for everyone. You don’t see everything that is going on or what the manifest says, so I don’t see how you can make a general statement that they are forcing you to sit in a place you don’t want, for absolutely no reason.


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

OK...I have been riding Amtrak for 30+ years...it just seems to happen more time than not. I am not writing for my health. A group of eight is not the norm and they will have to roll with the punches like everyone else. I specifically cited instances where cars have many double seats empty from Atlanta to, let's say Philly and I am forced to sit among the non-headphone wearing YouTubers, Gamers and other electronic media blasters at all was hours of the night. I requested a change of seat to one that was ten rows back, and was denied. Again, PLENTY of empty two seaters available. I just don't get the reasoning behind the refusal. And what about reserved seating through the website...? It can't be all that difficult to set up from an IT perspective...challenging, but not insurmountable. You guys (and gals) are the experts, shed some light on the subject to help me understand this phenomenon of negative customer service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 29, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Wow, just wow. Let’s say they have a group of eight people boarding in a few minutes. Do you really think it makes sense to wait until they board, AND THEN have to shuffle around all the people who were sitting there? That is a total time consuming pain for everyone involved. And why would the crew go out of their way to bunch people together if there’s space? That’s just extra work for everyone. You don’t see everything that is going on or what the manifest says, so I don’t see how you can make a general statement that they are forcing you to sit in a place you don’t want, for absolutely no reason.


I think what the OP means is that seat blocking should only happen when there is actual group already booked and ticketed later in the trip and not just because a large group *might* show up just before the train arrives.  I don't think last minute bookings should reasonably expect to have a contiguous block of seats all to themselves.  Amtrak is well known for micromanaging coach seats, even on trips with light passenger loads, and deflecting requests with explanations that are eventually discovered to be erroneous or fabricated.  I can understand needing some buffer space for parents with kids or whatever but it's not uncommon for OBS to block off entire coach cars and simply shove everyone into the smallest possible service area.  This policy probably makes it easier on the staff but it also seriously undermines what should be a major benefit of train travel.


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

And to answer your question about how I can make a blanket statement that I am being forced to sit in a seat I don't want...

I am not given the choice when I buy my ticket and when I show up on the platform, I am given a little scrap of paper with a number on it. When I sit somewhere else or indicate I would LIKE to sit somewhere else I am given an excuse as to why I can't. Why not just say..."Go Ahead...!"


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## City of Miami (Jan 29, 2019)

I think this happens to single passengers, like me. Long experience shows groups of 2 or more are treated preferentially. It's the general rule in the travel "industry".


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

Thanks Devil for nailing my point on the head. I am not an unreasonable person and would gladly accommodate any couple or group that needed my seat in order that their trip might be more comfortable. But when I see no staff enforcing the rules of courtesy that are clearly stated in the written literature by mentioning via the PA system that these rules are expected behavior or by walking through the cars every so often...I get irritated like most would. I still think it would be easier to just let folks sit where they want and move about as they please. Announce the stations that are approaching and allow people the freedom to enjoy the ride.


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## jis (Jan 29, 2019)

Amtrak’s power trip seat management by Coach Attendants and Conductors on LD Coach only occasionally have a rationale. Anyway it has caused me to shun travel by Coach on Amtrak LD trains. I’d rather drive or fly if possible if I cannot get a Sleeper for reasonable price. Even when On rare occasions I have been downgraded from Sleeper to Coach due to misconnect, I have managed to get the portion refunded and flown instead.


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## Skyline (Jan 29, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> Thanks Devil for nailing my point on the head. I am not an unreasonable person and would gladly accommodate any couple or group that needed my seat in order that their trip might be more comfortable. But when I see no staff enforcing the rules of courtesy that are clearly stated in the written literature by mentioning via the PA system that these rules are expected behavior or by walking through the cars every so often...I get irritated like most would. I still think it would be easier to just let folks sit where they want and move about as they please. Announce the stations that are approaching and allow people the freedom to enjoy the ride.


I pretty much empathize. One matter does trump (sorry!) the common sense you and some others here have written on this topic.

Coach attendants and conductors depend on those seat checks they place above where they tell you to sit. If you are allowed to move around at will, those seat checks become useless. You might sleep through your stop, because you won't be awakened by staff to get off the train. Others may not be able to use the seat which has your original seat check above it (now empty). Confusion will rein supreme.

Much better to let pax choose their seats upon boarding, before the conductor makes his or her rounds. But you should not move from that seat after the seat check is placed above you. And, if extenuating circumstances require, you should expect to be told to vacate the seat you've chosen -- such as if the conductor's manifest shows a group travelling together may need it. But other than that, I see no (good) reason why pax should not be able to choose their own seats upon boarding.


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## AG1 (Jan 29, 2019)

Tirnipgreen, most people on this forum will agree with you about this seating situation.  I have experienced the same situation. But, complaining on this forum doesn't help fix the problem. Please contact Amtrak with a strong but polite letter of complaint about this . I think your  post #1 should be prime reading for the head of the passenger operations department and the Amtrak  CEO. Thank you.


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## jis (Jan 29, 2019)

I don’t think Amtrak really cares enough about such things to do anything about it. I have written and complained for over a decade about this to no avail. I have hence ceased to bother. They can fill those seats without me anyway and I can get better accommodation elsewhere, so all is good for all parties concerned - in a manner of speaking. When even Claytor couldn’t fix it I very much doubt Anderson will even bother. Just my limited observations based conclusions mind you. [emoji57]


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## PerRock (Jan 29, 2019)

Skyline said:


> Coach attendants and conductors depend on those seat checks they place above where they tell you to sit. If you are allowed to move around at will, those seat checks become useless. You might sleep through your stop, because you won't be awakened by staff to get off the train. Others may not be able to use the seat which has your original seat check above it (now empty). Confusion will rein supreme.


As long as you move the seat check (provided they don't write one for both seats) there should be no problem moving. I've done it a number of times.

I'm not going to comment about moving seats within a single car... not sure on my opinion about it, historically I've had no problems doing so & so have not seen the other side of the arguments.

I do understand restricting you to a car. Usually OBS will assign a car to a number of destinations, so that when the train stops at one of those destinations they only have a few doors to open. This is mainly because of the limited staff on board.

peter


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## jebr (Jan 29, 2019)

Skyline said:


> ICoach attendants and conductors depend on those seat checks they place above where they tell you to sit. If you are allowed to move around at will, those seat checks become useless. You might sleep through your stop, because you won't be awakened by staff to get off the train. Others may not be able to use the seat which has your original seat check above it (now empty). Confusion will rein supreme.


Seat checks can pretty easily be moved. On the Builder, I've had conductors state over the PA something to the tune of if you move, make sure to move your seat check with you. That said, I've generally been able to at least choose my own seat within a section and not forced to a single seat.

Of course, some of this could also be solved by having the option to pick a seat in certain cars for an additional fee. It's one of the things that I like about Megabus; I can pay an extra buck and get a specific regular seat, or pay a bit more and get a preferred seat. I can also buy two tickets, reserve two seats next to each other, and know that I'll have both seats available for me. (I've done it without reserved seating as well and had good luck with bus drivers honoring both reservations so I can have a row to myself.) Amtrak, on the other hand, explicitly disallows this practice even though it could bring in more revenue with relatively little issue (if a train isn't sold out, just treat it as two people sitting there. On the off chance the train is oversold and having people sit in the lounge car isn't an option, simply put a clause in there that in such an instance the seat may be used and the extra seat fee will be refunded.)


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 29, 2019)

I am a volunteer host on NC's Piedmont trains.  When passengers board, they are told which car to go to but within that car they can sit where they want - with one exception.  There are blue signs which reserve certain seats.  These are placed above  2 groups of 4 seats where the seats face each other, so that families of three or more can be together.  There are also blue signs reserving seats for passengers with disabilities.  These are placed near the end of the car near the door and the restrooms.

It works pretty well except people tend to "miss" or ignore the blue signs.  After a station stop, the conductor will come by, scan tickets, place seat checks and generally move people out of those reserved seats if they don't belong there.  Once seat checked, it's okay to move to another seat - just take your seat check with you and avoid the blue signs.

jb


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 29, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> ...rather than have a power hungry conductor tell me to sit...


On board the train, he is Captain.  He is in command.   He is the dictator.   

Just as one would never question where Kirk tells them to sit (even those wearing a red shirt), one should never question the Conductor.


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## keelhauled (Jan 29, 2019)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> On board the train, he is Captain.  He is in command.   He is the dictator.
> 
> Just as one would never question where Kirk tells them to sit (even those wearing a red shirt), one should never question the Conductor.


It is possible for a conductor to both have control over the train and also not exercise it in a way that makes passengers unhappy.  Given reasonable explanation, most people are willing to follow instructions if they understand why they are being asked to do something.  While I think it has improved somewhat in recent years, many Amtrak personnel act as though the passenger is not worthy of an explanation, and really should just be grateful that the crew is granting them the small mercy of a seat on the train.  It seems that many on board crewmembers seem to view the passengers as an impediment to their true career of occupying tables in the lounge and drinking coffee.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 29, 2019)

I see multiple views on this. For one, it usually only happens on LD trains, not on shorter regional trains like on the Piedmont Trains. To some extent, I do believe that this is to help with boarding additional passengers at overnight stops.  It's not just staffing for multiple doors, it's platform length as well. There's lots of logistics the average passenger is not aware of. Think about this, if you are an attendant on the train, which is better customer service to ALL passengers. To assign seats so that you use all available seats so that it is easier and faster for passengers boarding down the line to find a seat?  Or is it better to just let everyone sit where they want and tell people "your loss" when they can't find seats together later on?  If they let every solo passenger take up 2 seats, now the solo passengers have to get moved if there is a couple that can't find a seat together... or does that couple not get to have seats together because you got there first? 

 Another point... on most airplanes you are assigned a seat and your seat mate (and those in front of and behind you) can be loud, annoying people. I get that it's a shorter flight, but still... not much you can do about it. So I'm not sure how having assigned seating would help you, you would still be assigned seats, just by a computer instead of the Conductor. I'm sure the Computer would be set up to fill solo seats first, and not assign you 2 seats by default. But at least you will know if you get the aisle or window if that's a preference.

Now let me also say this... I get it. Amtrak's attendants are not always friendly about this, and sometimes simple requests like "can I please have a window seat" are denied. I get it. I actually got very sick years ago when riding the Silver Meteor because I was assigned a seat close to the vestibule door and it got propped open with cold wind blowing on me as I slept overnight. After that I said "it's not worth it" and will only go business class or sleeper if those options exist.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 29, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Think about this, if you are an attendant on the train, which is better customer service to ALL passengers. To assign seats so that you use all available seats so that it is easier and faster for passengers boarding down the line to find a seat?  Or is it better to just let everyone sit where they want and tell people "your loss" when they can't find seats together later on?  If they let every solo passenger take up 2 seats, now the solo passengers have to get moved if there is a couple that can't find a seat together... or does that couple not get to have seats together because you got there first?


If the couple/group purchased their tickets before the initial manifest was printed at the route origin then it's reasonable to expect matching seats to be held for them.  On the other hand if the couple/group booked after the train has already begun its journey then they get whatever is left when the attendant receives the next manifest update.  It's silly for boarded passengers to be highly condensed for the entire route on the off chance that a large group of last minute tickets shows up out of nowhere toward the end of the run.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 29, 2019)

Doesn't Amtrak have an internal manual that tells the employees how to load the trains?  What does it say?

jb


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 29, 2019)

It's not an off chance... Amtrak knows more people are going to be boarding the train. I would think the majority of times enough people are going to be boarding down the line that it's not practical to let solo passengers take up 2 seats for themselves. 

To be fair.. I don't ride coach that much (partially because of the OP's complaint) so maybe it's common for 3/4th's of the coach to be empty the entire journey and Conductors continue seating passengers in one tiny clump in the back 1/4th of the car. That's not an accurate picture of any train that I've seen. It's usually pretty full.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 29, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's not an off chance... Amtrak knows more people are going to be boarding the train. I would think the majority of times enough people are going to be boarding down the line that it's not practical to let solo passengers take up 2 seats for themselves. To be fair.. I don't ride coach that much (partially because of the OP's complaint) so maybe it's common for 3/4th's of the coach to be empty the entire journey and Conductors continue seating passengers in one tiny clump in the back 1/4th of the car. That's not an accurate picture of any train that I've seen. It's usually pretty full.


You keep harping on this idea of solo travelers blocking a second seat on a packed train.  Where are you getting that from?  I've seen nobody suggest or defend that.  So far your posts have basically boiled down to a Hobson's choice (arbitrary micromanagement vs operational indifference) and this solo barricade straw man argument.  If you choose to believe that when a train attendant denies someone the opportunity to move it's because they _know_ someone else is going to need _every_ available seat _before_ reaching the asking passenger's destination that is your right.  All I know is that I've never once seen a train attendant check a manifest before launching into the "gotta big group boarding" deflection rant that never seems to materialize.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 29, 2019)

Attendants and Conductors will use the "group boarding down the line" excuse no matter what, we agree on that. 

I see the logic of trying to use up all available solo seats to allow for easier boarding down the line. If that's a straw man to you I can live with it. ha. 

I never said solo passengers will take up 2 seats, but what happens when down the line you need  2 seats together? You have 2 options, you can move the solo passenger back to where you had originally assigned him and say "I told you so" or you can let the couples and groups split up into solo seats (which is exactly how it works on short distance trains. I remember being excited to take my Mom on the Acela, and yet when we boarded at the origination in DC we couldn't find seats together because all the solo passengers had done exactly what they do if permitted.)


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## PerRock (Jan 29, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> Doesn't Amtrak have an internal manual that tells the employees how to load the trains?  What does it say?
> 
> jb


I've not specifically looked, but I don't recall seeing anything about loading instructions: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwoszLS0nWxPOGRfeXUtcllyak0/view?usp=sharing

peter


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

C-Z...Again, I would never deny a pair the opportunity to travel together by clinching the seat with my fangs. I am gaining much insight into the process and protocol used in boarding passengers on LD trains. I have read of instances where conductors have allowed passengers to find their own seats and then take inventory after the train has departed the station. It seems to have worked well, being in line with standard operating procedures or not. I am by no means trying to create ill will here...just trying to understand where conductors acquire their demeanor for such lame passenger relations. The passengers are the reason they have a job. I rarely see them doing the things that I expect to see conductors doing...Making announcements through the cars, asking noisy passengers to please refrain, etc. I am sure they are taking care of the paperwork involved with the accounting of any type of passenger omnibus, which, I am sure,  is a huge responsibility. What I suggesting is to allow the paying customer some say in the selection of the one seat that THEY paid for. I am by no means suggesting that any passenger be allowed to occupy 2 seats unless there isn't another passenger that wants it. I think most of those reading this thread know good and well what I am asking for help understanding...and hence improving in the name of passenger satisfaction, and in turn keeping - the last inkling of American train travel alive.


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## JRR (Jan 29, 2019)

My wife and I don’t often ride coach but when we go to Tampa we do. The last time we went, we were told we had to sit in seats 29 & 30. When we got to our sears we noted that there was no window in that row and no one in any of the other lower numbered seats in the car. We complained moderately about having to sit in a row without a window when the rest of the car was empty and the attendant relented and let us sit one row further back where there was a window! All’s well that ends well!


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

BTW...I will never stop riding the rails...! I wish I could somehow afford a sleeper every so often to see how the other half lives. Any suggestions on how to cut costs in some way on First-Class service....? (Guess I should take this topic to another topic post...sorry)


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## Tirnipgreen (Jan 29, 2019)

But why have to complain or beg or plead...? Easy thing for any conductor to again say - "Sure, Go Ahead"


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 29, 2019)

I just booked 9 trains with roomettes on 5 of them using points I've accumulated between Amtrak travel and 2 Guest Rewards credit cards.


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## cpotisch (Jan 29, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> BTW...I will never stop riding the rails...! I wish I could somehow afford a sleeper every so often to see how the other half lives. Any suggestions on how to cut costs in some way on First-Class service....? (Guess I should take this topic to another topic post...sorry)


Use AmSnag to find the cheapest dates, make sure you create an Amtrak Guest Rewards account, and get the BoA AGR World card. It's pretty amazing just how fast you'll rack up points with that card, and with the $100 statement credit you get right off the bat, you net an immediate $21 against the $79 sign-up/annual fee!


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## bratkinson (Jan 29, 2019)

First and foremost, when getting on at an LD origination station like Chicago, sit where they tell you.  In the case of the Lakeshore Ltd or the Empire Builder, as these trains split the next day, if you're in the wrong car, you'll end up several hundred miles from your destination.  Their ticket scanner flashes your destination city so, for example, if you're in a New York car with a destination of BOS, he'll tell you to move to the Boston section up front.

Sometime after you've gotten your seat check, and preferably just as the train is stopping at its first or second stop down the line, simply switch seats and move your seat check, too.  From what I've seen, the boarding passengers at all stops down the line generally sit anywhere in the car they are told to sit in...BOS car for BOS, etc.  Be sure to double check that boarding passengers are sitting in the same area as you are, as there may really be a big group down the line and you don't want to stick out being the only passenger in the front 10 rows of the car, for example.  Be sure to move your luggage with you and mimic the placement of the seat check...leaning to the right, vertical, etc.  Should the conductor tell you to move back, tell him it's too hot, noisy, smelly, or any other reasonable excuse of why you moved.  The aisle light in your eyes when you're trying to sleep is a good one too.


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## mfastx (Jan 30, 2019)

Amtrak really needs to speed up the boarding process outside the NEC.  It should work exactly as it does on the NEC.  If Amtrak wants to assign seats, have them be assigned automatically 24 hours prior to departure or something.  It's such a joke waiting outside for 15 minutes while a conductor scribbles seat assignments and everyone waits in line to board.  This inefficiency not only is an inconvenience to passengers, but it also causes delays.  Let's step into the 21st century people.  European model works much better.


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> First and foremost, when getting on at an LD origination station like Chicago, sit where they tell you. In the case of the Lakeshore Ltd or the Empire Builder, as these trains split the next day, if you're in the wrong car, you'll end up several hundred miles from your destination. Their ticket scanner flashes your destination city so, for example, if you're in a New York car with a destination of BOS, he'll tell you to move to the Boston section up front.


An even more problematic example of this would be the eastbound Sunset/Eagle split. If you are ticketed on #422 to Chicago, make sure you stay in that rearmost coach, or you will end up in NOL; roughly 800 miles from your desired destination.

I have also seen quite a few passengers get pretty shocked to discover that their train splits. My favorite case of this was a lady in our sleeper on the LSL (going to New York) who asked our SCA, Miles, “When will we pass through Boston?” To which he explained that “This train doesn’t go through Boston, it _splits_ in Albany”. So she responds “Wait, this train literally splits? How is that safe???”.

Just wow.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 30, 2019)

jis said:


> I don’t think Amtrak really cares enough about such things to do anything about it. I have written and complained for over a decade about this to no avail. I have hence ceased to bother. They can fill those seats without me anyway and I can get better accommodation elsewhere, so all is good for all parties concerned - in a manner of speaking. When even Claytor couldn’t fix it I very much doubt Anderson will even bother. Just my limited observations based conclusions mind you.


I experienced the exact same problem under claytor on the Crescent.  The train arrived Washington 3 hours late because of a stuck drawbridge.  This was on the day in june1991 when the Bulls beat the pistons to advance to the championship.  I was in coach and the attendant assigned seats.  Knowing that the train was late and observing that the crew was stressed I accepted the assigned aisle seat. It was going to be dark soon and I was primarily interested in the daylight ride from Birmingham to Mobile.  

When the attendant came around later I asked if it would be possible to be moved to a a window seat once one opened up. I had noticed many seat checks showing pax getting off there.  She snarled ,”you stay there unless I tell you to move!”  Now I was mad. I walked back to get a coke in the snack car.  On the way I saw the conductor and expressed my displeasure at her rudeness. 

I was standing in line in the snack car and the coach attendant came hurrying up to me with a new seat check and said I could move at Charlottesville.  Apparently the conductor got after her pretty good.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 30, 2019)

Thanks for the reality check Steve. While I wasn't around for the pre-amtrak era, I have chatted with those who were and they often comment how they don't remember the "glory days" being all that different from today's Amtrak. Lots of inconsistent service back then as well. 

Same thing for me when I rode VIA rail.. I think some people must put on rose colored glasses when they go north of the border because most of what I saw didn't make me think VIA was doing things much better than amtrak. Dining cars were classier, and of course the old Budd equipment great. But for the most part, still very mixed bag as far as the crew.


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## Rasputin (Jan 30, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> An even more problematic example of this would be the eastbound Sunset/Eagle split. If you are ticketed on #422 to Chicago, make sure you stay in that rearmost coach, or you will end up in NOL; roughly 800 miles from your desired destination.


The original post mentioned seating issues on the Crescent which is not a train that splits so the concern about being in the wrong car when a train is split does not relate or answer the concerns raised in the original post.


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## tonijustine (Jan 30, 2019)

This is a complicated PR situation too. If a person wants to move and they have an amenable Coach attendant, and it later becomes necessary to move some singles to keep boarding parties together, I have heard hear on UA single travelers feel like they get the short end of the stick because they are the ones being asked to move in favor of families or other parties. It does not sound like the OP is one of those people (OP—your request and attitude is quite reasonable), but how does the crew know they’ll have someone like the OP instead of someone who will feel entitled to their seat, split parties or families be darned?


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> The original post mentioned seating issues on the Crescent which is not a train that splits so the concern about being in the wrong car when a train is split does not relate or answer the concerns raised in the original post.


No one said that there was a concern here about being in the wrong car during a split. That was really just branch off of the original discussion that there are plenty of legit cases where they need to put passengers in specific cars or seats.


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## Rasputin (Jan 30, 2019)

From what I recall from a number of trips prior to Amtrak and prior to VIA was that you boarded the coach and found an open seat.  When the conductor took your ticket he would set up a seat check which confirmed that your seat was where you had chosen to sit.  I never recall being assigned a seat upon boarding.  It seemed to work out pretty well.

My latest coach trips were an overnight trip a few years ago on the Sunset and a day trip on the Southwest Chief.  On the Sunset I was given a seat number on boarding which was fine as the train was crowded and there wasn't a great selection of seats anyway.  On the Southwest Chief my wife and I boarded and found two open seats side by side and that worked out well.  We were not given assigned seats on boarding. 

I assume the practice mentioned in the original post occurs more on some trains than others.  As a person who usually travels by sleeper I am often not aware of how things are done in the coaches.  It is disappointing to learn that some conductors and attendants are apparently quite inflexible about reasonable requests by passengers to change their assigned seats and I thank the original poster for raising this issue.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 30, 2019)

I remember a trip in October of 1976 with my mom.  This was a trip from Champaign to Chicago to celebrate my 10th birthday.  We had tickets with a car number and seat numbers on it.  When we got on the train there was a lady and a child and peanut butter on the seats we were assigned.  We were quickly given other seats by the conductor in the same car. 

Min the summer of 1977 my father and I took a to week railpass.   Each leg we lined up early and dashed down the platform to get two seats together.  There were no assigned seats.  

Throughout the 1980s during dozens of solo trips it was survival of the fittest with dashes down platforms to get a window seat. I cheerfully thank my football coaches for the conditioning drills that allowed me to do this.  

I recall only once being asked to move.  I was in the 8th grade traveling solo to Boston to meet my Dad. I did my dash down the platform and claimed a window seat on the left side so I could view the “4 track mainline of the nyc “ which had by then been removed.  Two women in there 20s boarded significantly later and asked if I would mind moving so they could sit together.  I politely said no and explained my desire to look out the window.  They accepted my no and sat down.  They at first were unhappy but as the trip progressed they were amazed I looked out the window most of the next day.


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## Bex (Jan 30, 2019)

I ride the train mostly to get from Point A to Point B but with those points I accumulate, I take LD trains to see the scenery. I don't know why someone's need to sit right next to their friend or relative (unless it's a minor child) rather than across the aisle outweighs my right to look out the window and see America from a train because I'm alone.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 30, 2019)

mfastx said:


> Amtrak really needs to speed up the boarding process outside the NEC.  It should work exactly as it does on the NEC.


Well, yes, it is faster on the NEC.

However, unless you are in business class, there's no guarantee you will get a seat if you are boarding at some midpoint station. Definitely not one by yourself, and often you have to get someone to take their feet, luggage, and 50 electronic devices off the seat next to them so you can sit down. And first you have to get their attention (not easy when they have plugs in their ears and have their eyes closed pretending to be asleep).

I like how the Carolinian does it (I like most things about the Carolinian--a well-run train that others could learn from). In coach, they have signs above some seats that say "Reserved for two sitting together" or "a group" or something similar. So you know immediately if you are alone to avoid those seats but that it's okay to sit in any other seat available.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 30, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> The original post mentioned seating issues on the Crescent which is not a train that splits so the concern about being in the wrong car when a train is split does not relate or answer the concerns raised in the o﻿riginal post.


But it used to split! Anyone else remember riding in the Gulf Breeze days?


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> But it used to split! Anyone else remember riding in the Gulf Breeze days?


And maybe it'll split again if the Crescent Star ever comes to fruition! :huh:

(I mean it obviously won't in a million years, but maybe it will   )


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 30, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> And maybe it'll split again if the Crescent Star ever comes to fruition! :huh:
> 
> (I mean it obviously won't in a million years, but maybe it will   )


Somewhere I've got a national timetable and a Amtrak Planning Magazine (remember those? ok... now I feel old) with the Crescent Star Advertised.  I actually think if that had started running it may have had a chance. Unlike the poor Kentucky Cardinal (wish I had gotten to ride it!)


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## Rasputin (Jan 31, 2019)

Bex said:


> I ride the train mostly to get from Point A to Point B but with those points I accumulate, I take LD trains to see the scenery. I don't know why someone's need to sit right next to their friend or relative (unless it's a minor child) rather than across the aisle outweighs my right to look out the window and see America from a train because I'm alone.


When I am traveling alone, I usually have no problem moving to another seat in order to allow a family or others traveling together to be seated with each other.  It enhances their experience I assume and I usually find that it does not detract from mine.  I am usually in the lounge car anyway.


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## wwchi (Jan 31, 2019)

I still wish you could reserve a seat when making a business class reservation.  It's only one car so destination doesn't matter.  If you book early you get the benefit of more to choose from - if it's a last minute reservation (which I've also made) you get what's available, just like on the airline sites.


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## Rasputin (Jan 31, 2019)

wwchi said:


> I still wish you could reserve a seat when making a business class reservation.  It's only one car so destination doesn't matter.  If you book early you get the benefit of more to choose from - if it's a last minute reservation (which I've also made) you get what's available, just like on the airline sites.


Would be a good idea.  Perhaps I have missed a discussion of this but I wonder how VIA handles this on its corridor trains.  Are you given a particular seat when you book?  Can you select your own seat when booking?   Thanks.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 31, 2019)

I remember a trip in October of 1976 with my mom.  This was a trip from Champaign to Chicago to celebrate my 10th birthday.  We had tickets with a car number and seat numbers on it.  When we got on the train there was a lady and a child and peanut butter on the seats we were assigned.  We were quickly given other seats by the conductor in the same car. 

Min the summer of 1977 my father and I took a to week railpass.   Each leg we lined up early and dashed down the platform to get two seats together.  There were no assigned seats.  

Throughout the 1980s during dozens of solo trips it was survival of the fittest with dashes down platforms to get a window seat. I cheerfully thank my football coaches for the conditioning drills that allowed me to do this.  

I recall only once being asked to move.  I was in the 8th grade traveling solo to Boston to meet my Dad. I did my dash down the platform and claimed a window seat on the left side so I could view the “4 track mainline of the nyc “ which had by then been removed.  Two women in there 20s boarded significantly later and asked if I would mind moving so they could sit together.  I politely said no and explained my desire to look out the window.  They accepted my no and sat down.  They at first were unhappy but as the trip progressed they were amazed I looked out the window most of the next day.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 31, 2019)

JRR said:


> My wife and I don’t often ride coach but when we go to Tampa we do. The last time we went, we were told we had to sit in seats 29 & 30. When we got to our sears we noted that there was no window in that row and no one in any of the other lower numbered seats in the car. We complained moderately about having to sit in a row without a window when the rest of the car was empty and the attendant relented and let us sit one row further back where there was a window! All’s well that ends well!


Back in 1988, my wife and I rode home coach from Chicago on the Capitol.  That's when it was single level with Amfleets.  We got assigned the lousiest seats at the end of the car with no window, and to add insult to injury the people sitting in front of us were a bunch of noisy, possibly drunk yahoos. We dealt with it by spending most of the night in the vistadome. Despite the fact that the seats didn't recline, it was actually pretty comfortable, as the seat padding was not the concrete-like material used in the Amfleets.  It was quiet up th here, and it was kind of romantic sitting there together in the dark, seemingly floating through all those small towns in Ohio.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 31, 2019)

tonijustine said:


> This is a complicated PR situation too. If a person wants to move and they have an amenable Coach attendant, and it later becomes necessary to move some singles to keep boarding parties together, I have heard hear on UA single travelers feel like they get the short end of the stick because they are the ones being asked to move in favor of families or other parties. It does not sound like the OP is one of those people (OP—your request and attitude is quite reasonable), but how does the crew know they’ll have someone like the OP instead of someone who will feel entitled to their seat, split parties or families be darned?


If I  were a single traveler on a plane, I  don't  think I'd be too happy to be forced to move into a center seat, especially if I had made some effort to secure my preferred aisle seat.  And I  think some airlines now charge extra for aisle or window seats.  In that case, I'd definitely resist someone trying to force me into a center seat without at least a cash refund.


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## jis (Jan 31, 2019)

I am a single traveler and I have never been asked to move on UA or any other airline. There have been occasions when I have offered to move to enable a mother and child to sit together. But no airline person ever mandated that I must move.


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## Tirnipgreen (May 19, 2019)

Well...it happened again last night in Gainesville, GA boarding the Crescent northbound. When I asked for to be sat alone, "It's gonna fill up fast" exclaimed the woman who gave me the little slip of paper with the Sharpie number she had written on it. We didn't stop in Toccoa or Clemson. In Greenville, every boarding passenger was directed to another car (I think). Now, why would the seat assigner (conductor?) just flat out lie as to why I had to sit with someone else when there were plenty of empty two-seat sets unoccupied...? And why won't they ask (and require) all cell phones (and laptops) to be set on "vibrate" and headphones be used...? They do not care one iota about whether or not the customer is respected. Sad...very sad.


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## MARC Rider (May 19, 2019)

Years ago, I rode coach on the Capitol Ltd. to Chicago. When we boarded in Washington, the directed those of us going to Chicago in one car and those going to places like Pittsburgh, Canton, Lima, etc. to another car. This was explained to us to allow those of us traveling through not to be disturbed by people boarding/getting off at the stops during the middle of the night. They didn't otherwise restrict where we sat, but if you were at the end of the boarding line, you obviously had a lousy choice of seats. On the return trip, my fiance and I were stuck with a bulkhead seat pair in an Amfleet-2 car (that's all that was left as an unoccupied seat pair when we finally boarded) with a few loud drunks in the car. We ended up spending most of the night (and the next morning) in the dome, even though the seats didn't recline.

Once we took the Adirondack to Port Kent to take the ferry. They directed us to a specific car because the Port Kent Platform is pretty short. But the conductor told us we could change seats if any got free, which they did pretty much after we left Saratoga Springs. So I was able to get views of both the Hudson valley and Lake Champlain.

When I took the Broadway Limited in 1973, there was no restriction on where you could sit.

Just last March, I had a really lousy assigned seat in Acela First Boston to Baltimore. The car was pretty empty leaving Boston. The conductor said we could switch seats if we wanted to until we got to New York. That's there the car filled up to capacity.


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## River Cities (Jun 5, 2019)

We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 5, 2019)

River Cities said:


> We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.



Which is exactly what happens if the attendants don't care and let people sit anywhere there want. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that 1 person taking up 2 seats here and there quickly adds up. I get it, I'm often a solo traveler and have had some super awkward seat mates to the point that now I always upgrade to BC or Sleeper just to avoid the seat mate deal. But I can also see why you can't allow solo travelers to spread out.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 5, 2019)

It seems this could be dealt with by pre-assigning seats upon reservation. Perhaps one could make this optional, and charge a fee to allow you to have your preferred seat. Or one could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.

But unlike Acela First Class, they really should let you pick your seat _before_ you finalize the reservation.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 5, 2019)

And the computer would be programmed to automatically fill in solo seats.... which is what the attendants are doing now. Ha


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## SubwayNut (Jun 5, 2019)

My most frequent Amtrak segment these days is the Lake Shore or Capitol from Chicago to South Bend for the quick 90 minute journey home, my girlfriend and I are not ones to aggressively stand in line or be pushy (I haven't ridden a train in the Northeast with her yet and then I might make her be more pushy). The main reason being the seat assignments normally issued. On Sunday we finished the trip on a 45 minute lake Lake Shore Limited, equipment trouble as the train was preparing to leave yard, and were nearly the last two passengers on, we were assigned a car but no seats and as we boarded a man was screaming at the attendant "There are no seats together, I expect to sit next to my wife!" The attendant told them they would need to talk to the conductor and he was sorry, but quite non-committal. We found two singles across the aisle from each other, and I remarked that this was the first time in 10 to 20 trips home from Chicago, generally boarding towards the end that we weren't sitting together.

Ideally attendants would put up a certain number of "reserved for parties of 2 or more signs" but not assign seats. I feel like there paperwork at the origin station would say the number of parties of 2 or more and this would be a decent solution.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

City of Miami said:


> I think this happens to single passengers, like me. Long experience shows groups of 2 or more are treated preferentially. It's the general rule in the travel "industry".



Although I haven't experienced this on Amtrak trains (then again I've traveled mostly in sleepers on the AutoTrain), I have experienced this in different formats in re: airlines, etc. as well as the "Hospitality Industry" in general (hotel room and restaurant table assignments). Having paid for Continental's old "Business First" service, I'd always sit in the same seat on each flight. This, to ensure that I got my choice of meal (assuming the crew started at the front and worked their way back, like they were supposed to... sometimes they'd "cherry pick" their menu orders, leaving me to the very last).

Many times, I'd be asked by a couple who booked at the last minute and were assigned seats separated from each other if I would switch so that they could sit together. Usually, the seat they'd want me to switch to what was, IMHO, an "inferior" seat in the back of a cabin, not a window, and would result in less of a chance to get my meal choice. As politely as I could, I'd have to tell them that I selected my seat specifically and well in advance, and did not wish to move. I was always fearful that they'd try to get the FA to "force" me to move, especially if it were a "celebrity" or VIP or something. I would be prepared to defend my seat in that case. I would move only in the case of a "medical or safety emergency." Of course, what would happen is that one of them (usually the male) would still have to sit with me since that was the only available seat, and that would not be the most pleasant flight I might take. Ah well....


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 6, 2019)

That’s happened to me when traveling solo in first class air as well. It’s pretty annoying. If I haven’t gotten settled in yet I’ll consider moving if it’s another window seat, but otherwise it’s a no go from me.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> If I were a single traveler on a plane, I don't think I'd be too happy to be forced to move into a center seat, especially if I had made some effort to secure my preferred aisle seat. And I think some airlines now charge extra for aisle or window seats. In that case, I'd definitely resist someone trying to force me into a center seat without at least a cash refund.


&


jis said:


> I am a single traveler and I have never been asked to move on UA or any other airline. There have been occasions when I have offered to move to enable a mother and child to sit together. But no airline person ever mandated that I must move.


&


AutoTrDvr said:


> Many times, I'd be asked by a couple who booked at the last minute and were assigned seats separated from each other if I would switch so that they could sit together. Usually, the seat they'd want me to switch to what was, IMHO, an "inferior" seat in the back of a cabin, not a window, and would result in less of a chance to get my meal choice. As politely as I could, I'd have to tell them that I selected my seat specifically and well in advance, and did not wish to move.


&


crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s happened to me when traveling solo in first class air as well. It’s pretty annoying. If I haven’t gotten settled in yet I’ll consider moving if it’s another window seat, but otherwise it’s a no go from me.


I’ve never been physically forced out but I have encountered this sort of thing when traveling solo, usually suggested in a vaguely deceptive fashion that attempts to make an objectively worse seat somehow sound better than the one I’d be giving up. Even on 10+ hour flights in business class couples and families have no qualms expecting solo travelers to give up their carefully selected seats just because they’re experiencing buyer’s remorse. Seats that I booked and bought specifically because I cared where I sat. Screw that noise. First come, first served; if you’re old enough to book, you’re old enough to pay attention to what you’re buying. If you didn’t like what was on offer then find another flight. If you had to travel last minute and didn’t have much to choose from...join the club. We’ve all been there and we’ve all suffered the consequences of last minute travel.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Which is exactly what happens if the attendants don't care and let people sit anywhere there want. *I’m not sure why it's so difficult to understand that 1 person taking up 2 seats here and there quickly adds up.* I get it, I'm often a solo traveler and have had some super awkward seat mates to the point that now I always upgrade to BC or Sleeper just to avoid the seat mate deal. But I can also see why you can't allow solo travelers to spread out.


I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.



MARC Rider said:


> One could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.


I’ll happily fund the ACLU lawsuit that exposes and litigates this kind of selective application nonsense.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> It seems this could be dealt with by pre-assigning seats upon reservation. Perhaps one could make this optional, and charge a fee to allow you to have your preferred seat. Or one could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.
> 
> But unlike Acela First Class, they really should let you pick your seat _before_ you finalize the reservation.


As a solo traveler I'd find being charged a fee for seat reservations discriminatory, offensive and likely illegal.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I’ve never been physically forced out but I have encountered this sort of thing when traveling solo, usually suggested in a vaguely deceptive fashion that attempts to make an objectively worse seat somehow sound better than the one I’d be giving up.



I've not experienced this in re: transportation seating, but I have experienced it in re: hotel room assignments. In fact, this particular thing is one of my notorious "war stories" in re: my "Hospitality Industry vs. the Solitary Traveler" struggle. Will post in a different thread if you wish to hear it.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Even on 10+ hour flights in business class couples and families have no qualms expecting solo travelers to give up their carefully selected seats just because they’re experiencing buyer’s remorse. Seats that I booked and bought specifically because I cared where I sat.
> Screw that noise. First come, first served; if you’re old enough to book, you’re old enough to pay attention to what you’re buying. If you didn’t like what was on offer then find another flight. If you had to travel last minute and didn’t have much to choose from...join the club. We’ve all been there and we’ve all suffered the consequences of last minute travel.



Precisely my position on the subject. I know that sounds cruel, but hey Is my comfort any less valuable than a couple's comfort solely because I'm solo?.... Now, that said, again it depends on where the couple have their seats. If, for example, the switch would result in me being in the same row, with a window, etc. I would do it. It also depends on the demeanor of my new seatmate. If s/he would be one of the two people I just refused, leaving them pi$$ed off at me (usually the male), then I might elect to move to avoid a rather nasty 10+ hour flight. So far, I haven't had to do that. Most of the time, someone usually got upgraded and took the seat next to mine, nullifying the issue. 



Devil's Advocate said:


> I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.



And, although it has happened a precious few times, I have never expected to have the adjacent seat to myself, and I never sprawled onto it in advance of the flight departing. That's because, more than likely, if the seat next to mine in CO's Business/First were still "available" at departure time, they'd usually upgrade someone from coach. The "Business/First' cabin would almost always be completely full on each flight. 



Devil's Advocate said:


> I’ll happily fund the ACLU lawsuit that exposes and litigates this kind of selective application nonsense.



So would I. I mean, I know the Service crew knows who their "regulars" and "high roller/VIP's" are, many by name, as I discovered. And I know they're going to take care of them. And, as long as it doesn't result in a disadvantage for me, I'm fine with that. But if it means I lose a meal choice, or i lose a window, fughedaboutit!


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## jis (Jun 6, 2019)

About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course by design you get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, than someone of higher status. It is documented in print.


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## jiml (Jun 6, 2019)

In my experience this has always been a bigger problem flying than on trains. Most times it's another passenger asking to switch, which I try to avoid for all the reasons stated above (meal selection, etc.). Post 9-11 could be interesting in FC cabins, where you could be asked to move to economy to accommodate a last-minute air marshal. The only time it happened to me the crew were very apologetic and I was well compensated with frequent flyer miles, dismissing it as a "sign of the times".

Last year in Germany we booked a compartment for a day-long trip to Amsterdam and found it fully occupied, with all the luggage space gone. Only one of the occupants was legit and the situation was fully resolved when crew came to check tickets. VIA Rail used to have tenuous grasp of seat reservations, especially when it came to corridor business-class service. Seats have always been reserved by number and advance meal selection used to be possible. We tend to board at a suburban Toronto station rather than double-back to downtown, which often results in others sitting in your seat. Attendants used to take a very casual view about this - "just sit anywhere" and "we can't ask people to move", however this would often result in meal mix-ups. Of course they've abandoned pre-selecting meals for various reasons, but have gotten a lot better in enforcing reservations. On a recent trip a disgruntled passenger buried in his laptop with headphones on was forced to move to vacate one of our two seats. It turned out he had self-upgraded after departure from Toronto and was escorted from the car. VIA also used to have issues on the Maple Leaf when business class (custom class at the time) was introduced. They would force everyone crossing the border into one coach, regardless of class-of-service, saying that the distinction was "an Amtrak thing" and that the other coaches were needed for local traffic. This was inconvenient since you'd have to move your bags to the Café/BC car in Niagara Falls, NY. Amtrak had no such issues on the way back.


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## jiml (Jun 6, 2019)

jis said:


> About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course y design you are get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, by someone of higher status. It is documented in print.



Each airline is different. Air Canada definitely works as you describe, but my airline of choice used a system nicknamed "FEBO", or Front Even Back Odd for taking orders based on the flight number. In the last few years they've gone to online pre-selection, which is great and only results in disappointment when an entrée is substituted.


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## jis (Jun 6, 2019)

And then there is Italy, where the train crew had surreptitiously sold my berth (on an overnight Roma-Zurich Eurocity) with some under the table payment, expecting me to not show up since they had changed the departure station from Roma Termini to Roma Tiburtina at the last moment. They were not thrilled to see me show up and being forced to re-accommodate their under-the-table-payment "customer" elsewhere in a sold out train.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 6, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.



I was referring to this....



Tirnipgreen said:


> When I asked for to be sat alone, "It's gonna fill up fast" exclaimed the woman who gave me the little slip of paper with the Sharpie number she had written on it. We didn't stop in Toccoa or Clemson. In Greenville, every boarding passenger was directed to another car (I think). Now, why would the seat assigner (conductor?) just flat out lie as to why I had to sit with someone else when there were plenty of empty two-seat sets unoccupied.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

jis said:


> About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course by design you get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, than someone of higher status. It is documented in print.



It may be "routine," but it's not "policy." Certainly, it was not CO's policy. Officially, they were supposed to start from the front of the aircraft on the left side, and work their way back. At least, that's what corporate HQ told me. Did that always happen? Of course not. Lots of crews "cherry picked." And, in my particular case, we aren't talking "upgrade." We're talking someone who paid the full Bus. First fare... rack rate. And still, I was often approached last. 

Thankfully, most of the time, I actually wanted their signature beef dish, which was their majority supplied offering. They usually offer a fish, a chicken and/or a beef. If the Bus First cabin contained, say, 30 seats, they might provision 15-20 beef dinners, and then split the rest as Chicken and/or Fish, as the stats tell them how they should provision it. They certainly won't provision 30 of each choice. I think I got stiffed only once or twice, in which case I protested by having them take the tray away.

BTW, some crews (on different airlines) would do this. They would actually flip a coin in front of the cabin (with everyone watching) to see in which direction they'd start (front to back or back to front). That would be acceptable and fair, as opposed to just "cherry picking."


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

jiml said:


> Each airline is different. Air Canada definitely works as you describe, but my airline of choice used a system nicknamed "FEBO", or Front Even Back Odd for taking orders based on the flight number. _*In the last few years they've gone to online pre-selection, which is great and only results in disappointment when an entrée is substituted*_.



And that's the way to do it! Singapore Air started this with their "Book the Cook" service. Pre-order your meal so that the aircraft can be provisioned much more accurately!


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## Michigan Mom (Jun 6, 2019)

Have enjoyed the reserved coach seating on VIA (on the Windsor-Toronto corridor) and wish Amtrak could implement same on the Wolverine.


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## tonys96 (Jun 6, 2019)

River Cities said:


> We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.


Same thing. Same train. Boarding in DAL years ago. We just found conductor who opened a new, empty coach car for us, that filled up at FTW and AUS.


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## tonys96 (Jun 6, 2019)

On Southwest, with cattle call boarding, we take both aisle and window seats. Most people do not want middle between two strangers. If plane fills up, one of us moves to middle, when necessary.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

jiml said:


> In my experience this has always been a bigger problem flying than on trains. Most times it's another passenger asking to switch, which I try to avoid for all the reasons stated above (meal selection, etc.)._* Post 9-11 could be interesting in FC cabins, where you could be asked to move to economy to accommodate a last-minute air marshal.*_ The only time it happened to me the crew were very apologetic and I was well compensated with frequent flyer miles, dismissing it as a "sign of the times".



Or, even more fundamentally, switching at the last minute like that would screw up the "printed manifest." If, for example (and thanks to 9-11), they needed to identify a given individual sitting in an assigned seat (as a potential terrorist) but that person switched with another, that manifest might not be "updated" in time. I'd feel really sorry for the person that volunteered to switch, now becoming the "unbeknownst target" of the authorities. 

A quick funny story about "air marshals." On one trip, it turned out that my seat in CO's Business First class was malfunctioning. I noticed that the window seat behind me was vacant, with only one gentleman sitting next to it on the aisle. For whatever reason, this particular gentleman (I'd say mid 50's, balding, etc. etc.), was wearing the loudest multi-colored Seersucker jacket. I asked him if could sit in the vacant window seat next to him, and he seemed to agree. But, within 20 seconds of me attempting to move there, the FA came and 'bum-rushed" me out of it and away from him..... "You shouldn't disturb the gentleman!!!!" When I explained why (i.e. my assigned seat was malfunctioning), she replied, "I'll find you another quickly." And she did. In fact the opposite window in the same row.

I can only surmise that the "gentleman" and his very loud Seersucker Jacket was either:

1) A really well placed VIP high roller with them; or;

2) The "Air Marshall" on that flight.

I suspect the latter. Why else would he wear that jacket? Why would the FA want to bum-rush me away from him? So that the other crew could identify him easily without his having to be "in uniform" (and also to conceal his service weapon), and also to have clear access to exit his seat if he needed it.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 6, 2019)

zephyr17 said:


> As a solo traveler I'd find being charged a fee for seat reservations discriminatory, offensive and likely illegal.


"Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.

By the way, I am often a solo traveler myself and wouldn't find paying an extra fee for preferred seating to be "discriminatory, offensive and illegal." Of course, if the carrier screws up and I couldn't get my preferred seating, I'd want a 100% cash refund of the extra fee.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> "Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.
> 
> By the way, I am often a solo traveler myself and wouldn't find paying an extra fee for preferred seating to be "discriminatory, offensive and illegal." Of course, if the carrier screws up and I couldn't get my preferred seating, I'd want a 100% cash refund of the extra fee.



If "paying for it" would guarantee the service I would expect, I might also be willing to pay, even though I do understand why it's felt to be "discriminatory." Why should a solo person be required to pay for something a couple or family get for free? "Legally" discriminatory? Maybe not, but discriminatory nonetheless.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> "Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.


It's true that solo travelers are not in and of themselves a protected class, which is why private sector businesses can legally charge them supplemental occupancy fees, but we're talking about a government owned corporation that would find it difficult to prove they have suffered an unrecoverable material loss as the basis for a solo coach surcharge. It may not be illegal but it would be extremely unpopular. Solo business travelers didn't always care so much about selective fees and surcharges, but now that many positions have been converted to contractor gigs every dollar is starting to matter. Solo leisure travel is one of the fastest growing segments in terms of popularity and awareness. A punitive fee against such passengers would hand hundreds of bloggers and vloggers a juicy rant on a silver platter. A debate with enough staying power to spread far and wide before it cooled down again. It's a bad look for a company that is already struggling to maintain relevance in the modern era. Much better to simply implement seat selection at booking time (either prior to payment or within a no fee return window). That way everyone gets a fair chance at the seats they prefer.


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## jis (Jun 6, 2019)

Frankly, printed manifests get screwed up all the time with people switching seats after boarding. Good crew simply hand writes the changes in the manifest as they discover them. Bad crews just get confused. Good passengers tell the crew they are switching. Indifferent passengers don't. But it happens, even after leaving initial flight level. I have seen it happen many times specially on high revenue ULR flights more so than on local milk runs. And split families between Business and Coach shuffling seats is quite par for the course too. Fortunately I have yet to see anyone trying to get everyone in the family fed the upper class food yet.


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## jis (Jun 6, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's true that solo travelers are not in and of themselves a protected class, which is why private sector businesses can legally charge them supplemental occupancy fees, but we're talking about a government owned corporation that would find it difficult to prove they have suffered an unrecoverable material loss as the basis for a selective solo surcharge. It may not be illegal but it would be extremely unpopular. Solo business travelers didn't always care so much about selective fees and surcharges, but now that many positions have been converted to contractor gigs every dollar is starting to matter. Solo leisure travel is one of the fastest growing segments in terms of popularity and awareness. A punitive fee against such passengers would hand hundreds of bloggers and vloggers a juicy rant on a silver platter. A debate with enough staying power to spread far and wide before it cooled down again. It's a bad look for a company that is already struggling to maintain relevance in the modern era.


I totally agree with the general position. But Amtrak already in effect charges a surcharge for Solo occupancy of a roomette, which in effect is somewhat similar to the hotel single surcharge, which BTW happens more in touristy type places than in business hotels at least in the US. It is much more common abroad.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2019)

jis said:


> I totally agree with the general position. But Amtrak already in effect charges a surcharge for Solo occupancy of a roomette, which in effect is somewhat similar to the hotel single surcharge, which BTW happens more in touristy type places than in business hotels at least in the US. It is much more common abroad.



You're absolutely right and this complaint is limited to the context of solo coach pax surcharges since loss of use would be relatively easy to explain in the context of a sleeper compartment. After reading your post I modified my own to further clarify my position.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

jis said:


> Frankly, printed manifests get screwed up all the time with people switching seats after boarding. Good crew simply hand writes the changes in the manifest as they discover them.



But are they reporting those changes to "ground ops?" Probably not. And that's where they'll need them the most. The impetus to try and find a potential terrorist will come from the ground, and the ground manifest is the first place they'll look. 




jis said:


> And split families between Business and Coach shuffling seats is quite par for the course too. Fortunately I have yet to see anyone trying to get everyone in the family fed the upper class food yet.



I've seen that as well. I wonder if they'd still permit it in this "security conscious" era, for the reasons stated above (i.e. needing to identify people in the right places)? Not sure...


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## jis (Jun 6, 2019)

AutoTrDvr said:


> I've seen that as well. I wonder if they'd still permit it in this "security conscious" era, for the reasons stated above (i.e. needing to identify people in the right places)? Not sure...


AFAICT nothing has changed about skipping around among seats among passengers who agree to participate in such merry go round. 9?11 may have had an effect immediately after the event, but 2001 is now a distant memory for some, and beyond the attention horizon of many. There is now an entire post 9/11 generation entering the work force and the flying public too.


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## AutoTrDvr (Jun 6, 2019)

jis said:


> AFAICT nothing has changed about skipping around among seats among passengers who agree to participate in such merry go round. 9?11 may have had an effect immediately after the event, but 2001 is now a distant memory for some, and beyond the attention horizon of many. There is now an entire post 9/11 generation entering the work force and the flying public too.



I won't ever forget it... I can't... I was there.

I worked about 10 blocks north of "Ground Zero" and was at work on 9-11. After the 2nd plane hit the South tower, they decided to evac my building, as it would be the next tallest in the original path of AA Flight 11. We were out milling in the street when we heard this collective "scream" from across the street. We all poured into the middle of the street, just in time to see the South Tower collapse, live. We thought it had been hit again. Subsequently, we were ousted out of the immediate TriBeCa area north to Greenwich Village/Chelsea. And I couldn't get back home to NJ that night since the transit systems were all down. Fortunately, I had relatives that let me stay at their place. I was able to get home the next day. We wern't allowed back into TriBeCa for work until 6 weeks later. Anyway, I won't ever forget it.

But, I guess, just like we remember D-Day, today, you won't forget it if you were "in it." But yeah, This generation may not recall growing up in that era. And that's when terrorists will strike again... when they catch us with out pants down. We can't ever allow that to happen.


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## me_little_me (Jun 6, 2019)

SubwayNut said:


> My most frequent Amtrak segment these days is the Lake Shore or Capitol from Chicago to South Bend for the quick 90 minute journey home, my girlfriend and I are not ones to aggressively stand in line or be pushy (I haven't ridden a train in the Northeast with her yet and then I might make her be more pushy). The main reason being the seat assignments normally issued. On Sunday we finished the trip on a 45 minute lake Lake Shore Limited, equipment trouble as the train was preparing to leave yard, and were nearly the last two passengers on, we were assigned a car but no seats and as we boarded a man was screaming at the attendant "There are no seats together, I expect to sit next to my wife!" The attendant told them they would need to talk to the conductor and he was sorry, but quite non-committal. We found two singles across the aisle from each other, and I remarked that this was the first time in 10 to 20 trips home from Chicago, generally boarding towards the end that we weren't sitting together.
> 
> Ideally attendants would put up a certain number of "reserved for parties of 2 or more signs" but not assign seats. I feel like there paperwork at the origin station would say the number of parties of 2 or more and this would be a decent solution.


There are other methods that would work. For example, they could limit single passengers to even rows only (until they were filled). They could, if there were a group of 3 or more, put up signs reserving multiple rows (or the whole row across) after a certain city where the larger group is expected to board. Or they could limit singles to certain rows, say seats 1 to 10 (40 seats) again, until those are full.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 6, 2019)

Why? The most efficient thing is to seat solo passengers in open solo seats.


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

OK...Happened again Gainesville to Greensboro. Plenty of empty two-seaters availble. When asked if I could move to one the conductor replied "gonna fill up fast in Greenville". OK...two hours away, if it does I will move. It continues to be a power trip for the Amtrak personnel. As I have stated in the past, I love riding the train...why is it such a bother to let paying customers choose their own seats from what is available...?


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why? The most efficient thing is to seat solo passengers in open solo seats.


The nicest thing to do would be to let the customer choose their own seat, thank you.


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

And the best thing to do would be to have the seating plan on the website and allow passengers to choose their own seats just as the airlines do it.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 22, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> And the best thing to do would be to have the seating plan on the website and allow passengers to choose their own seats just as the airlines do it.


Airlines don't make multiple stops between point A and point B.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 22, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> The nicest thing to do would be to let the customer choose their own seat, thank you.



You’ll love southwest then!

If there are multiple seats and you request a window or an aisle seat, that’s one thing. But expecting to get 2 seats for the price of one is different. It doesn’t matter if there are empty 2 seaters, it’s the car attendants job to seat people efficiently.


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

CZ...You still don't understand my discussion topic. I am not asking for 2 seats for the price of one. But if there are seats available, why can I not choose the one that I want...? If someone else decides that they would like to sit next to me, let that be their decision as well. You seem to be defending the power trip that those who work on the train seem to be on. I am the paying customer and you are (apparently) a member of the group I am criticizing. Most people on a plane would rather sit in a 3 seat row with the middle seat open...even couples. Most single people on the train would rather sit in a row without someone else next to them. When it is possible for that to happen, why not accommodate their wishes...? If the train fills up, then so be it...but until it does, why not make every paying customer as comfortable as possible...? When I see empty seats and am told that it will be full within the next stop or two, and it does not fill up...I cry foul...! Making those claims and then finding that there is no possible way for them to be true looks really bad on you and your crew. On last Monday night's run up to GRO I asked to sit in an open seat and was refused. The train was 2 hours late, the cafe was closed and I just wanted a little bit of peace and quiet. The employee then informed me that "if I wanted to get off at the next stop, I was welcome to". Nice way to treat your customer...


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

And asking a single passenger to move if there are couples boarding subsequently would never bother me...as I stated from the beginning. BTW...when I fly, I generally choose my seat online..so don't come back with "you'll love Southwest" as if they are out to make my journey as difficult as they can. Air travel and rail travel have similarities and differences. You seem so defensive when I bring up this topic. If the shoe was on the other foot, your tune might change. But hold on to your "customer disservice" customer service attitude, ride the rails free for life, collect your pension and feel good about hearing of customers concerns and standing steadfast in your belief that we are just an imposition to you and your crew. I am trying to suggest a change to keep ridership up...not down.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 22, 2019)

The Crescent departs Gainesville at 8.59 p.m. It arrives at Greenville at 10.53 p.m., well after quiet hours start. So if everyone is allowed to spread out wherever they want to, here are two problems that crop up:

 What do you do with the family of 4 that wants to get on at Clemson at 10.16 p.m. and sit together? Do you have the train crew wake people up and move people around with the inevitable ensuing arguments? Or would you be paying attention to this developing situation, jump up and volunteer to vacate your seat so that they can sit together?
If people can just sit wherever they want to, how does the crew find them in the middle of the night to make sure they get off at the correct stop? You might say well, there are seat checks. But passengers don't pay any attention to those, especially if a nice double seat opens up. They'll move to it and forget the seat check. Since the outside doors are opened manually, and not every door is opened, would you be upset if you had moved to a nice comfy car with a lot of empty seats but then missed your stop?
jb


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 22, 2019)

Umm... I don’t work for Amtrak, I pay to ride just like you, and when I ride solo I sit in the assigned seat that I am given. If i don’t like the seat or my seat mate, I hang out in the lounge while other members of this forum time me for taking up a space in the lounge for too long. Lol. 

Also... I genuinely like southwest.

This is one of the few Amtrak policies that I can understand. To me, it’s better customer service to leave empty seats for couples and families boarding later down the line, than to just shrug your shoulders and say “ask someone to move if you want to sit together”


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 22, 2019)

And let me repeat...I am told of all these people that are going to fill the car and they never materialize. CZ, sorry for assuming that you were a conductor on Amtrak. I saw your profile listed as "conductor" and made a mistake. Again, I apologize for that. JohnBob...let people fend for themselves, but if someone moves and does not move their destination tag, that is very irresponsible and they get what is coming to them. Minors may need more attention paid toward them...as an adult, I do not. When I get on the train, I want to choose my seat and then have a train employee check my ticket and make note of the seat I have chosen. If I find it necessary to move, I would discuss it with train staff before doing so. Why not announce station stops...? Why not ask noisy passengers to be quiet...? Why not keep the cafe open if the train is running late and staff is on board...? Again, passengers are just obstacles in a day in the life of Amtrak personnel, and it shows.


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## JRR (Sep 22, 2019)

Here is the problem: when you are traveling with someone (I.e. my wife) and get on the train and every seat in the cars are all taken by one person with their stuff spread out and you can’t find a seat together. People ignore you and most of the car attendants make themselves scarce because they don’t want to be involved in any potential conflict ( and neither do I).

The solution is assigned seats. I know on the Silver Star in Tampa the attendant assigns seats ar boarding and accommodates those traveling together.

On the NE regional, my experience is every person for himself!


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## me_little_me (Sep 22, 2019)

As I have said before, there are things Amtrak can do to satisfy both families, couples and singles.

Families can ask that seats be reserved for them when making reservations (or having it done automatically so that the conductor knows ahead of time that those seats should be marked as such and the conductor can put tickets above those seats indicating they are reserved for certain city pairs. Such reservations could be made by , say groups of four or more, or any size which includes children.

Rows can be reserved for couples i.e. no singles permitted in those rows. Pairs of passengers only.

Singles can sit in rows dedicated to them but may not occupy both seats by dumping their baggage on the adjacent seat.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 22, 2019)

You’ve never seen more people board your car at station stops and sit in empty seats? 

There are so many Amtrak rules that don’t make sense, like the kindergarten walks and all but this one totally makes sense to me.

When you pick seats when flying online... you usually end up with seatmates correct?


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 22, 2019)

Realize that who's booked on the train at any given moment is changing all the time. So the family of 4 who wanted to get on down the line decided that the train is running too late and therefore decides to cancel their reservation. When that happens should the conductors announce that over the P.A.? And what happens to those engaged in the free-for-all over those now available seats?

And conversely, what if when you get on no family is booked to get on down the line, so you're allowed to occupy whatever seat you want. Then after you get on, a family of 4 does make a reservation to get on down the line, but now, when they do, no seats are grouped together. What do you do then?

No one can know in advance who actually will get on and where with 100% certainty. It's dynamic.

Station stops ARE announced, but not overnight between 10 p.m. and 7 a.m.

If these were commuter trains where all the doors open automatically, I see nothing wrong with allowing people to sit where they want and to let people find their own way off the train at the correct station, but these trains are different:

They travel overnight.
All the doors are not opened at every stop (they are not automated).
Since the distances traveled are longer, Amtrak has made a commitment to sit families together.
jb


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 23, 2019)

JRR said:


> The solution is assigned seats.


Yeah, by the customer.



AmtrakBlue said:


> Airlines don't make multiple stops between point A and point B.


Amtrak manages this with sleeper compartments just fine.


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## jis (Sep 23, 2019)

It always amazes me how many people rise bravely in defense of silly policies when there are all sorts of alternative policies that are known to work at many other rail operations. Sigh ...

Neither a single getting window seat nor a group getting seats together is an entitlement, just the same as getting a seat on the train at all isn't either. Those who book early have a better chance of getting what they desire in a reserved preassigned or self assigned seat situation, than those that book later. Seems to work just fine in many places even on trains that make 50 stops on the way. No reason that it would not here.


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## IndyLions (Sep 23, 2019)

I have empathy for the OP. I don’t like it when as a single I can’t pick my seat either.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 23, 2019)

Jishnu -

I for one would like to hear how some of these other systems work.

jb


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## jis (Sep 23, 2019)

Typically, they operate first come first served, together with some form of quotas on the order and number of seats that are released for pre-selection. In most cases all seats are not released for pre-selection from the get go. In many cases the entire train is not reserved. There are cars that are either unreserved or even if reserved that do not have pre-selection. 

Actually the quota things works really well when you have intermediate major stops with large turnover. But it takes way more effort in monitoring demand and adjusting inventory, a lot of which these days gets automated.

This really isn't rocket science. Even airlines on occasions do not release all seats for pre-selection, and of course even if a seat is pre-selected on rare occasions one is requested to swap seats at the gate, including those gate upgrades and what not. 

The system that the Japanese use is to have a few cars in the train that are non-reserved and the rest of the train is reserved first come first served together with assigned seat.

The British and the Germans seems to prefer to just reserve some seats as requested by the customers and leave the rest unreserved. The seat status is visible in signs above the seat and unreserved ticket holders can occupy any seat that is not reserved or occupied at the moment with the proviso that if it is a reserved seat they will move when the reservation holder shows up. Again reservations are FCFS based on availability. Yes there are cases when a through seat between point A and B is not available, but seats are available A to C and then C to B. More often than not people just buy a ticket, get on and then find a free seat to cover such situations. 

I generally tend to just buy a ticket and get on even if I cannot get a reservation for a seat that I desire or any seat for that matter. In the worst cases one may have to stand. I remember standing in the vestibule of a Hikari high-speed train in Japan one time all the way from Osaka to Hiroshima. It happens. But at least I get there, instead of being left stranded.

In short there are many variations that work just fine. The worst of them are the ones where one group is consistently treated poorly over others. There is no logical reason why a group that booked late should get seat preference over an individual that took the trouble to book early, just like there is no logical reason why one would bump someone who had booked early to accommodate another that booked late.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 23, 2019)

Jishnu,

Thanks. Now how would that work on Amtrak? What upgrades would be necessary? 

Amtrak is now revising its station loading policy. Maybe its train loading process is under review as well.

jb


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 23, 2019)

What’s the goal of selecting one’s seat on a train? If I get an aisle seat I just hang out in the lounge more. 

It would be nice on Acela / regional where the business people frequently put computer bags on the empty seat next to them... but on long distance trains I don’t get the appeal.


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## jis (Sep 23, 2019)

To be able to do the British or German style thing they would either need to use the pre-automation British method which was to tag seats that are reserved with paper slips, or post automation with rather fancy and informative seat status signs which shows for upto three segments where the seats are reserved.

To use the Japanese method it takes nothing more than to demarcate some cars as reserved assigned seat and others not, and do assigned seating on only those designated cars. In all cases the total number of tickets sold for a train can always be limited to the net number of seats available, even though the Japanese do not do that. That restriction at least avoids trying to explain to people why you do not have a seat even though you have a ticket for a specific train, though almost anyone traveling on the NEC is probably quite familiar with that phenomenon.

Of course Americans generally being less disciplined and more entitled feeling crowd on the whole may feel slighted if they are denied access to a reserved car. In order to enforce, it might require creation of a new "class" with a nominal fee. 

Incidentally, the French extract a reservation fee for any reserved seating. In spite of that people get onto TGVs with any random ticket (which apparently saves them from getting hit with a penalty if you speak French well  ), and pay the difference and even sit on jump seats by the doors when push comes to shove, even though TGVs are supposed to be "Reservation Obligatiore".

And of course there is a need to get a 21st century reservation system too, which may be the hardest thing to achieve apparently.

Realistically, any policy has to live within an environment, and it is hard to tell what precisely will work in the Amtrak environment. Perhaps some experimentation with a few variations will need to be tried out. I understand the Aceal 21s are intended to be introduced with assigned seating in all classes from the getgo. So we'll see how that goes down.


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## Brian Battuello (Sep 23, 2019)

I can see both sides of the issue, both having tried to find a group of four with little or no assistance from the staff, and also being bunched together firmly when travelling alone. And of course the NE corridor laptop/coat/food seat grab . Not sure we'll ever make everyone happy. 

Another permutation is used on trains like the Adirondack, where they sometimes keep a car completely locked until Albany northbound, so there are more options for the passengers arriving there for the trip north. As soon as the car opens, though, you can move up there if you want. And on the way south, they keep one car reserved just for New York City (Penn) travellers, so that they don't have to wander that car looking for people to throw off at tiny stations along the way.


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## AutoTrDvr (Sep 23, 2019)

Tirnipgreen said:


> CZ...You still don't understand my discussion topic. I am not asking for 2 seats for the price of one. But if there are seats available, why can I not choose the one that I want...? If someone else decides that they would like to sit next to me, let that be their decision as well. You seem to be defending the power trip that those who work on the train seem to be on. I am the paying customer and you are (apparently) a member of the group I am criticizing. Most people on a plane would rather sit in a 3 seat row with the middle seat open...even couples. Most single people on the train would rather sit in a row without someone else next to them. When it is possible for that to happen, why not accommodate their wishes...? If the train fills up, then so be it...but until it does, why not make every paying customer as comfortable as possible...? When I see empty seats and am told that it will be full within the next stop or two, and it does not fill up...I cry foul...! Making those claims and then finding that there is no possible way for them to be true looks really bad on you and your crew. On last Monday night's run up to GRO I asked to sit in an open seat and was refused. The train was 2 hours late, the cafe was closed and I just wanted a little bit of peace and quiet. The employee then informed me that "if I wanted to get off at the next stop, I was welcome to". Nice way to treat your customer...



I think I get what you're saying. I've flown and taken trains extensively. On all of the trains I've taken (including Amtrak Acela and regional service to/from NY/Wash), no conductor has ever told me I needed to move, to accommodate a couple. On NJ Transit, they have told me I needed to move to a different car if they're closing that car or it's not going to be open as of yet, but they've never told me where to sit in any car. I've always traveled alone and understood that anyone can take the empty seat(s) in my row, and I'll gladly let them sit there. Sometimes, I try to keep the aisle seat and they (passenger) will balk about climbing over me to take the window, but that's all. 

Actually, I worried more about the "couple" issue on Aircraft than trains. I always got a specific window seat when on the aircraft for a specific reason and, once assigned, I never want to move. Again, because I travel alone, the seat next to me is often open (in Bus. Cl/bus. First), even up to and including gate departure (i.e. they aren't even offering freebie upgrades to coach passengers). I have had couples who book late and got separate seats see the seat open next to me and ask me if I'd move, and (especially if it's an inferior seat), I'd have to say no. Sometimes they'd be pi$$ed off, and sometimes not. But in no case was I ordered to move by FA's. The worst that would happen would be the (usually) male of the couple would take the seat and it would result in a rather uncomfortable flight. But I'll take that any day. Two can play that game. 

But, to your original point, if I'm lucky enough to get a row of seats to myself, then so be it. If I'm not, then so be it as well. I don't own the seats next to me, and if someone wants to take it, they take it. If not, I'll enjoy the extra space.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 23, 2019)

Jishnu,

I'm still not visualizing the non-reserved concept in conjunction with Amtrak's long distance overnight trains which have trap doors which have to be opened manually. Currently, Amtrak tries to load passengers with similar destinations into the same car or additionally, the one next to it as well. Amtrak does not have enough personnel to open all the doors at a station so what happens with a non-reserved car on a train making a stop at midnight (no announcements)? Are people to simply:

Be awake and aware of where they are (this always helps)
Also be aware of which door will be opened at their stop
Trudge through the train to get to the opened door
Make that move (number 3) early enough to not delay the train?
jb


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## jis (Sep 23, 2019)

Yes. People have to be prepared to disembark at a station before the train comes to a stop.

Amtrak really does not have all that many cars in its trains. Opening a door per three or four cars should be sufficient for loading unloading a handful of passengers, which is what they do anyway. Having to walk 170' to disembark should not be a deal breaker for anyone except the mobility impaired, and they are handled separately and specially anyway.

The corralling of passengers that they do on the fly is something that can also be done when the reservations are made since the origin and destination are invariant in each PNR associated with the train.

And the bottom line is even absent all this they do not have to treat single passengers like sh*t, which is what they currently do. There should be no special entitlement for just being two passengers together, beyond holding a few rows of seats for such. You don't have to put the 7 single passengers in two rows leaving the rest of the car empty. That is plain ridiculous.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 23, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What’s the goal of selecting one’s seat on a train? If I get an aisle seat I just hang out in the lounge more...on long distance trains I don’t get the appeal.


The goal is to give single travelers a chance at getting a seat they want instead of being shut down and pushed around for a "big group coming" that rarely materializes in the actual flesh. The lounge car may not even be around much longer and sitting in a seat you don't like for days on end without an option for meaningful improvement is a poor way to run a railroad.




Brian Battuello said:


> I can see both sides of the issue, both having tried to find a group of four with little or no assistance from the staff, and also being bunched together firmly when travelling alone. And of course the NE corridor laptop/coat/food seat grab. Not sure we'll ever make everyone happy.


No system will make everyone happy, but that doesn't prevent us from putting everyone on an even playing field and allowing those who want a different outcome to book earlier (or pay a little more) for the privilege.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 23, 2019)

What I don't understand is it seems that the original poster prefers his/her own seat away from noisy people which I understand as a natural born introvert. But I can still hear people visiting and what not from the opposite side of the car. Do I have extra good hearing? What I do and I highly recommend the original poster do is to get a sleeper. I too am not rolling in extra cash, but signing up for that Amtrak credit card and the rides I have already done on Amtrak has allowed me several "free" segments of sleeper travel. It's the way to go for introverts or folks that want quiet to read or whatever.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 23, 2019)

I wonder if it would be possible to make one of the LD coaches a "quiet" car, as we have on the NEC, and have you choose that when you book your ticket. And when the seats are filled, that is it for booking that car.

And yes, I know someone will say there aren't enough cars in the consist. But the quiet car in the Regional is usually full, as is the quiet car on lowly NJ Transit, so it's a popular feature that would not result in empty seats.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 23, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to make one of the LD coaches a "quiet" car, as we have on the NEC, and have you choose that when you book your ticket. And when the seats are filled, that is it for booking that car. And yes, I know someone will say there aren't enough cars in the consist. But the quiet car in the Regional is usually full, as is the quiet car on lowly NJ Transit, so it's a popular feature that would not result in empty seats.


Imagine reversing the ratio and having quiet trains with a designated noisy (lounge) car instead. Perfection incarnate!


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## Qapla (Sep 23, 2019)

Not sure if this has been considered in this thread ... trying to remember - but, when it comes to seating, one of the reasons seating is done by destination is that, not all stations have a platform area long enough for people to board/detrain from any/all cars in the consist. It would not work to open the door of a car that is stopped on a crossroad instead of at the station. Many if the smaller stations are like this. I know I have looked out my window while stopped and found myself looking directly down the road at all the stopped traffic - imagine getting off that car and finding yourself in the middle of all that traffic. - especially if the station is four cars away from where you're sitting.

Personally, I have never had a problem getting a seat that fit my preferences - I simply asked while I was still outside the car about to get on. I have never been made to feel I was asking something wrong or that I was "secondary" to other passengers. But then, I asked in a generic way - like, can I have a seat on this side or that side near the middle of the car? They check their seating card and direct me to a seat that fits my request.


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## IndyLions (Sep 23, 2019)

One system that I have seen work pretty well is when they block off a few rows of a coach for couples / families only. That way couples / families are just about guaranteed a spot next to each other (or at least very close by for odd numbered groups), but the singles had the availability of anywhere else on the entire car to choose from.

That seemed to be a good compromise that worked pretty well for most everyone.


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## ScouseAndy (Sep 25, 2019)

Taken from the Amtrak Website:

*Seating Accommodation Policies*
Amtrak will monitor seating of passengers to ensure compliance with the following policies:


Each passenger paying a fare is entitled to a seat, to the extent coach seats are available.
Passengers are entitled to one seat per fare, to ensure other paying passengers are not excluded.
Unless specific seats are assigned, seating is on a first-come, first-served basis. On unreserved trains, there are no guaranteed seats.
Seating assignments are made without regard to race, color, creed, national origin or gender.
Amtrak reserves the right, whenever operating conditions require, to transfer passengers from one car or train to another en route.
Seeing as the policy already allows for Amtrak to transfer passengers from one car to another, then there is zero need or justification in preventing passengers sitting on an empty row just incase a group needs to sit together. Also the policy doesnt state the groups are guaranteed to sit together any way.

Personally I found when I travelled on Amtrak that a polite request when boarding to the conductor for a window seat with the brief explanation that I was tourist who had specifically chosen to travel by Amtrak for the views was enough to aways be assigned a window seat and on the CS from LA even got given my requested righthand window seat.

Perhaps I was just lucky on the 11 LD trains I took to get a reasonable conductor everytime and on 90% of them I was starting on the originating station and predominately going end to end. If it was solely down to luck then I need to start doing the lotto! I did find myself sharing a row much of the time but quite frankly that didnt bother me so much and I never had a bad seat buddy and for the most part found conversation possible to varying degrees.


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## SarahZ (Sep 25, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Imagine reversing the ratio and having quiet trains with a designated noisy (lounge) car instead. Perfection incarnate!


I realize you're joking, but I would actually pay extra for this.


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## ScouseAndy (Sep 25, 2019)

SarahZ said:


> I realize you're joking, but I would actually pay extra for this.



French TGV's are all quiet cars, if you need to make a call then you have to go the vestibule at the end of the car which actually has a mobile phone booth for you to sit in and take your call.


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## VentureForth (Sep 25, 2019)

Are we the only country that still uses seat checks?


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## ScouseAndy (Sep 25, 2019)

VentureForth said:


> Are we the only country that still uses seat checks?


No UK still use paper seat checks on HSTs and electronic seat checks on modern express trains.
They refer to them as seat reservations but from experience of using split tickets I know the conductors do use them to check passengers haven't stayed on past their ticketed station. Although in the UK (and every other country I've travelled in bar Russia and some European sleeper services) its the passengers responsiblity to get off at their stop and not the train crew


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## mfastx (Sep 25, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Airlines don't make multiple stops between point A and point B.



Works just fine in Europe.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 25, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> Perhaps I was just lucky on the 11 LD trains I took to get a reasonable conductor everytime



Requesting a window seat is much more reasonable than asking to sit anywhere you want.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 25, 2019)

VentureForth said:


> Are we the only country that still uses seat checks?


What would you do instead? We're not talking about the short distance Northeast Corridor trains.

Seat checks do 2 things:

 They identify the passenger's destination so that the crew can get them off the train at their stop. Most of the time passengers are paying attention but quite often they are sleeping. And even more often, they have earbuds in so they are listening to music or whatever, and do not hear the station announcements. And at night, they can't readily identify their location by looking out the windows.
If the crew doesn't scan the tickets on the platform when the passenger is boarding (this is official Amtrak policy, by the way), the absence of a seat check signifies that the crew needs to "collect" the ticket.
Sure, when new equipment is obtained, perhaps they can have electronic destination indicators located above the seats and station stop message boards. But right now, what's so bad about seat checks?

jb


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## jis (Sep 25, 2019)

Speaking of seat checks, I witnessed and was one of the victims of a scam involving seat checks the other day on NJT Trenton local. Soon after the tickets were inspected and seat checks placed upon departing Trenton, someone whisked by picking up the seat checks! When the Conductor came by next he was miffed, but not particularly surprised. He asked for description of the person or persons who did the seat check flinching. Later at New Brunswick the train held for a bit while the Police came and hauled away four guys.

Apparently this is a scam used by some to travel free. They snitch others seat checks and use them to try to claim that their tickets have already been checked and picked. The Conductor seemed to be aware of this, and I noticed they started using different seat checks and punching patterns as soon as they discovered the snitching. I suspect that is how they apprehended the culprits.

This scam is partly enabled by NJT's ticket inspection protocol in which they leave no proof of ticket other than the seat check with those who use paper tickets. I was using an electronic ticket on my Smartphone so I had no problem establishing that I had a ticket, seat check or not. But potentially, paper ticket holders do not have any presentable evidence if their seat check is snitched.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 25, 2019)

I still like the method used on the Piedmont trains (see post 14 on this thread) which I'll repeat here because of an addition. In each coach a few seats are reserved and are marked with blue signs - for those with disabilities or small groups. When a person boards the train, the crew determines what the person's destination is and directs them to a particular car. Once in that car, they can sit anywhere they want - avoiding the seats with the blue signs. Occasionally, people miss the blue signs and are relocated if the train is pretty full. Everyone is seat checked.

For overnight trains, I would propose something that I saw the crew of 92 do last month. They always scan the tickets on the platform but on this one occasion, they additionally produced a seat check, marked our destination on it, gave it to us, and told us to put it over our seat on the overhead luggage rack. That was new. Now if Amtrak could adopt that procedure, and allow boarding as in the preceding paragraph, all they would need to do is to make sure that the seat checks were properly placed once the train got underway.

The one glitch I see is that people like to sit by themselves and therefore spread out onto the seat next to them. The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A. system and intervention of the crew, both of which are unwelcome during quiet hours (10 p.m. - 7 a.m.).

jb


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## ScouseAndy (Sep 25, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> The one glitch I see is that people like to sit by themselves and therefore spread out onto the seat next to them. The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A. system and intervention of the crew, both of which are unwelcome during quiet hours (10 p.m. - 7 a.m.).
> 
> jb



Dont want waking then dont spread out over 2 seats simple and effective remedy


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## Qapla (Sep 25, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> gave it to us, and told us to put it over our seat on the overhead luggage rack



Not as uncommon as it may seem ... there are those who are not tall enough to place the ticket in the luggage rack - one of the reasons some of them use the empty seat for their bags.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 25, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A.


In my view the last thing Amtrak needs are even more announcements where 100% of the train is included so that 5% of the passengers _might_ benefit. If Amtrak doesn't want passengers spreading out then maybe they should start by installing some obvious seat dividers along with including instructions on tickets and seat backs informing people that their personal space ends at the armrest. Save the unavoidable announcements for things that are likely to concern the majority of the train, such as updates on major failures and delays.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 25, 2019)

Agree with DA here. Also, on most of my trips, they have made the announcement about not spreading your stuff out onto empty seats anyway. That is nothing at all new. And they usually make the announcement after every, single station stop. The only times I haven't heard them make the announcement was when the coach load was so light it didn't matter.

Amtrak needs to find a way to cut down on the announcements, not add more.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 25, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> What would you do instead? We're not talking about the short distance Northeast Corridor trains.



They use seat checks on the Northeast Corridor, even for short rides like Baltimore - Washington.


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## railbuck (Sep 26, 2019)

A low budget solution would be to use card stock of a different color to indicate seats to be kept free for passengers boarding down the line at a specific station. Instead of a seat check these could be called a "pre check" except that name is already sort of taken.

They could be preprinted "Reserved for passengers boarding at:" and then the station (for example, CLE on train 48). So a passenger traveling, say, SOB-TOL could take that seat. On leaving CLE, after passengers boarding there have found seats (together or in a group, if applicable), anyone could move to one of those seats if they are empty, taking their "real" seat check with them.

Coarse sorting can still be done at boarding ("BUF? Upstairs and then left. ALB? Upstairs and then right. Take any seat marked CLE on the pink slip. BOS? Three cars forward.") but it solves the problem of over-reserving for a specific station, while still giving passengers a choice of seats within the parameters determined by the crew.


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## Gemuser (Sep 26, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> What would you do instead? We're not talking about the short distance Northeast Corridor trains.


Simple: use the German system or a varient.
Any seat can be reserved between specific stations. In the most moden stock it is done electronically, in older stock the reservation slips is placed on/above/near the seat. Anybody can sit in those seats EXCEPT on the booked sectors, I have personally seen 4 different sector seat reservation on the one seat. If you are sitting in a reserved seat in the reserved sector you have to move and let the reservation holder sit in the seat, simple. The only problem I had was that I don't read German and so missed the sign explaining this system, so I inadvertantly sat in a reserved seat that was reserved for the third sector from where I got on. Fortunately there were two German women across the aisle who explained the problen & the rules & helped me find another seat.

As everybody on LD Amtrak trains needs a reservation it would be simple to inplement and allocat seats! Come on Amtrak joint the 21th century with your seat reservations system!


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## wwchi (Sep 26, 2019)

I still don't understand why I can't reserve an actual seat in BUSINESS class as that is typically one car that holds people going to all different destinations. I would like to do that like I do when making a plane reservation. I understand the difficulty with coach and different cars allotted for different destinations but like I said, BC is ONE car so why not? That would be another additional "benefit" of buying a BC ticket and would be a no brainer for making your BC passengers happy about paying a premium.


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## VentureForth (Sep 26, 2019)

wwchi said:


> I still don't understand why I can't reserve an actual seat in BUSINESS class as that is typically one car that holds people going to all different destinations. I would like to do that like I do when making a plane reservation. I understand the difficulty with coach and different cars allotted for different destinations but like I said, BC is ONE car so why not? That would be another additional "benefit" of buying a BC ticket and would be a no brainer for making your BC passengers happy about paying a premium.


Particularly on the PacSurf where manspreading is horrible.


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## JRR (Sep 27, 2019)

My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal. Not only that but the agent asked me if we wanted front facing seats and arranged for us to be assigned to front facing seats. The boarding passes give not only the seat number but also states that they are front facing.

Apparently, VIA can do things that AMTRAK can't.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 27, 2019)

From what I understand this is actually one of those rare problems where 100% of the solution is already in place. Amtrak could choose to bring assigned seating to reserved trains in much the same way they've implemented box lunch style meal service. They'd need to start tracking and standardizing consist orientation, train call center and OBS groups, create a deployment schedule, and send out passenger notices, but the fundamental capacity is already there.


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## wwchi (Sep 27, 2019)

JRR said:


> My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal. Not only that but the agent asked me if we wanted front facing seats and arranged for us to be assigned to front facing seats. The boarding passes give not only the seat number but also states that they are front facing.
> 
> Apparently, VIA can do things that AMTRAK can't.



I'll bet that's 100% true! Amtrak's tech is not the best - they can't seem to even show the same reservations on the app as they show on the website. NOT hard to do, they just probably don't do it. Maybe I'll contact them again and ask about doing that. I get the short end of this stick on one of my trains because my boarding station into the city is the last stop so I only get what's left and sometimes people actually sprawl out over 2 seats to sleep since it's an early train.


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## Qapla (Sep 27, 2019)

wwchi said:


> I get the short end of this stick on one of my trains because my boarding station into the city is the last stop so I only get what's left and sometimes people actually sprawl out over 2 seats to sleep since it's an early train.



Let's see if I understand this situation ... assuming reserved seats would "solve the problem" that the current seating scheme does not answer ...

Person A buys a train ticket from the "boarding station into the city [that] is the last stop [before the end for that train]" and should be able to reserve their desired seat. Everyone else that buys a ticket after that time would not be able to reserve that seat because it is already reserved ... thus leaving that seat empty from the trains originating station until the next-to-the-last-stop for that train.

I can see how that is an improvement


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## wwchi (Sep 27, 2019)

Qapla said:


> Let's see if I understand this situation ... assuming reserved seats would "solve the problem" that the current seating scheme does not answer ...
> 
> Person A buys a train ticket from the "boarding station into the city [that] is the last stop [before the end for that train]" and should be able to reserve their desired seat. Everyone else that buys a ticket after that time would not be able to reserve that seat because it is already reserved ... thus leaving that seat empty from the trains originating station until the next-to-the-last-stop for that train.
> 
> I can see how that is an improvement



No you are misunderstanding. Right now I can buy my ticket from my town to the last stop which is the city. All that is different is that I PICK a seat. Someone who takes the same train from their town to MY town can also pick that SAME seat for their trip since that particular seat on the reservation system only comes up as available to me if it's not in use. If they pick the seat all the way through to the city then that seat doesn't show as available at all. It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.


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## jis (Sep 27, 2019)

wwchi said:


> It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.


Exactly! Seat turnover is expected to happen, possibly several times en route, just like Roomette turnover in Sleepers happen all the time, and that is all handled fine by the Roomette reservation algorithms.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 27, 2019)

wwchi said:


> No you are misunderstanding. Right now I can buy my ticket from my town to the last stop which is the city. All that is different is that I PICK a seat. Someone who takes the same train from their town to MY town can also pick that SAME seat for their trip since that particular seat on the reservation system only comes up as available to me if it's not in use. If they pick the seat all the way through to the city then that seat doesn't show as available at all. It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.





jis said:


> Exactly! Seat turnover is expected to happen, possibly several times en route, just like Roomette turnover in Sleepers happen all the time, and that is all handled fine by the Roomette reservation algorithms.



Let me put this into practice which is why the much vaunted the first class pilot hasn't pushed forward.

When you allow the passengers to legitimately select their seats, here is what actually happened...on a trains. When passengers picked their seats in advance, it reduced through space on train. Right now, if the train is sold end to end, with changeover at intermediate stops, the through spaced shows. When passengers pre selected their seats during the pilot, sure their was through space, but it would actually require the passenger to switch seats.

Put in small terms, we have two seats on the train.

Person selects seat 1 from TRE-WIL.
Next person selects seat 2 from WIL-WAS.

Person three shows up and want to book from NYP-WAS. Is there actually, space to do this? Yes, as there is space between TRE-WAS and the current system would allow the reservation. With seat assignment, you'd tell the through passenger there is space, but you can occupy seat 1 from NYP-TRE, move to seat 2 from TRE-WIL and return to seat 1 at WIL since others beat you to it.

Additionally, most people seem to want aisle seats. Now you have a bunch of single riders that beat you to the punch and people attempting to book together couldn't find seats together.

Now, there are ways to combat this as Jis mentioned. However, that is not true seat selection. That is selecting from the pool that the algorithm produces, which is largely what occurs with the sleepers. In general, the system picks it for you, holding through space and putting intermediate stops in the same room. That is why it has to be manually entered when passengers request a certain room.


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## Qapla (Sep 27, 2019)

OK ...


The train starts at station A and terminates at station S (that makes 19 stops - counting origin and destination)
Person A books a trip from station R to station S and reserves seat 25
Every person who books after that, regardless of the station they start at, cannot book seat 25 if they are riding to station S - even though the seat may be empty all the way to station R
If no one books that seat who will get off before Station R ... the seat remains empty the whole time
The seat would not appear as available for anyone going to the same destination as the first person who books that seat regardless of the station the first one to book gets on
Someone who books from station D to station O should be able to book that seat


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## me_little_me (Sep 27, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> Sure, when new equipment is obtained, perhaps they can have electronic destination indicators located above the seats and station stop message boards.
> 
> jb


That's pretty funny. Remember, this is a company without the means (or the will?) to figure out how to:
Have checked baggage at more (not fewer stations) without needing agents at every station
Have video communication so passengers at a station can use a kiosk to see and communicate with a remote agent.
Have the ability to allow patrons to see the price on the web site for multiple days
Have the ability to have sufficient food on board trains for sale or to provide to customers
Have the ability to provide complete nutrition information for all meals
Have the ability to tell people at non-agent stations where they should stand for sleepers or coach to board quickly.
Have the ability to remotely open and close as well as monitor non-agent stations and make announcements at those stations.
Have the ability to consistently have trains aligned the same every day.

etc, etc, etc


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 27, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> When you allow the passengers to legitimately select their seats, here is what actually happened...on a trains. When passengers picked their seats in advance, it reduced through space on train. Right now, if the train is sold end to end, with changeover at intermediate stops, the through spaced shows. When passengers pre selected their seats during the pilot, sure their was through space, but it would actually require the passenger to switch seats.


Dividing cabins into banks of reserved and unreserved seats could help alleviate some of this. For instance you could remove seat selection for shorter trips, set a maximum percentage of individually reserved seats by type (aisle/window/etc), and charge a selection fee to weed out indifferent passengers. It's not perfect but probably acceptable once the system is smart enough to reliably balance these factors.


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## jis (Sep 27, 2019)

I would also point out that reserved seat and passenger being able to select their seats are two separate things. Reserved seats have existed for at least 75 years on Indian Railways. It is only very recently that a small subset of reserved seats can be selected by the passengers.


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## jiml (Sep 28, 2019)

JRR said:


> My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal.


That is a very interesting itinerary to say the least.


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## wwchi (Sep 28, 2019)

While many of these arguments are valid - if I am purchasing my seat 2 months in advance Amtrak has my money already and I have paid for that seat. It's the benefit of having more to choose from if you book early. Same with a plane. While I realize a plane only goes from point A to point B, it is similar in that you have greater availability early. I would fully expect that if I wanted to CHANGE my train to an earlier or later one I would have to take whatever is available. I am a regular rider and have been for 15 years - wouldn't it be nice to get some benefit to pick a seat? Maybe that's how they do it - make that an extra perk for Select/Select Plus riders...again, like airlines do for their "frequent flyers". All of which is doable on Airline apps and could be on the Amtrak app if they figured it out.


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## JRR (Sep 28, 2019)

jiml said:


> That is a very interesting itinerary to say the least.



I left out Montreal to NYP on the Adirondack. Get to Quebec City on the Caribbean Princess. 

Interesting indeed! Thanks!


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## jiml (Sep 28, 2019)

JRR said:


> I left out Montreal to NYP on the Adirondack. Get to Quebec City on the Caribbean Princess.
> 
> Interesting indeed! Thanks!


I'd bet there aren't a lot of people changing trains in Brockville to go from Ottawa to Montreal, unless staying over in Brockville. You must be a railfan! The trip from Ottawa to Brockville is quite scenic, but depending on the time of day you may not get to experience the best parts of VIA's Business service. For example, a morning departure from Ottawa may get you breakfast in time, but no bar service before Brockville. Later in the day you might get a drink, but the meal is unlikely to be served until after Brockville on that route.


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## railbuck (Sep 28, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Years ago, I rode coach on the Capitol Ltd. to Chicago. When we boarded in Washington, the directed those of us going to Chicago in one car and those going to places like Pittsburgh, Canton, Lima, etc. to another car. This was explained to us to allow those of us traveling through not to be disturbed by people boarding/getting off at the stops during the middle of the night.


That must have been a really long time ago; I think the CL only served Lima during the time it was a section of the Broadway. But it does bring up an interesting point, because they do a similar thing currently when boarding in Chicago (and probably also in WAS, though I haven't ridden that direction recently, and probably also for many trains at the originating station).

Let's say for the sake of example that when boarding in CHI they typically put destinations west of CLE in coach 1, and CLE through PGH passengers in coach 2. Let's say the system knows this, and when I book a trip CHI-SKY 6 months out, it lets me select any seat in coach 1. But then a month before departure, a large group buys tickets to TOL, and also on that date the sales to CLE are about half of normal. Now they are going to want the SKY and ELY passengers in coach 2. Someone has already reserved the corresponding seat in coach 2, so they can't just tell me "same seat, different car." Do they put the group in vacant seats around me, so I feel like an intruder in their party (and they do want to party; I just want to sleep)? Does the system bump me to a random seat in coach 2 (and if so, what's the point of preselecting)? Do they put some TOL passengers in coach 2, disturbing the CLE passengers during that station stop?

One way of handling this would be to only allow seat selection during a relatively short period before departure, maybe (to copy the airlines) at booking for Select Executive, 7 days out for Select+, 5 days for Select, 3 days for AGR members, 24 hours for everyone else. At least by then the mix of through passengers and intermediate city pairs should be somewhat known for that run, with an allowance for last minute bookings, and the seats available to a specific passenger can reflect this.


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## wwchi (Sep 28, 2019)

_One way of handling this would be to only allow seat selection during a relatively short period before departure, maybe (to copy the airlines) at booking for Select Executive, 7 days out for Select+, 5 days for Select, 3 days for AGR members, 24 hours for everyone else._

YES - this is what I was kind of talking about above for Business Class seat selection...a scenario like this would work well. On airline apps/sites you can also CHANGE your seat, which is something they could also offer if people wanted to take a look before they leave to see if a more preferred seat opened up. It's really not that hard. Your ticket can show your seat assignment just like the airlines' boarding passes - whether on your phone or printed out.


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## Qapla (Sep 28, 2019)

Then again, they could just leave it the way it is since, for most passengers, it seems to work just fine.


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## JRR (Sep 28, 2019)

jiml said:


> I'd bet there aren't a lot of people changing trains in Brockville to go from Ottawa to Montreal, unless staying over in Brockville. You must be a railfan! The trip from Ottawa to Brockville is quite scenic, but depending on the time of day you may not get to experience the best parts of VIA's Business service. For example, a morning departure from Ottawa may get you breakfast in time, but no bar service before Brockville. Later in the day you might get a drink, but the meal is unlikely to be served until after Brockville on that route.



Your guess is correct. We are staying in Brockville to visit my sister.

Looking forward to the trains. Yes, our afternoon train won’t get us the meal but we will relax with the drink.


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 29, 2019)

Qapla said:


> Let's see if I understand this situation ... assuming reserved seats would "solve the problem" that the current seating scheme does not answer ...
> 
> Person A buys a train ticket from the "boarding station into the city [that] is the last stop [before the end for that train]" and should be able to reserve their desired seat. Everyone else that buys a ticket after that time would not be able to reserve that seat because it is already reserved ... thus leaving that seat empty from the trains originating station until the next-to-the-last-stop for that train.
> 
> I can see how that is an improvement



Are you telling me that a group of IT geeks can't come up with a program that takes that situation into consideration and make it work...? Computers are a wonderful thing, power hungry personnel are not. When a seat is open, it's free for anyone to sit in. How difficult is that...?


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## Tirnipgreen (Sep 29, 2019)

Qapla said:


> Then again, they could just leave it the way it is since, for most passengers, it seems to work just fine.


Qapla...Are you an Amtrak employee...? If so, leave me alone when I choose where I would like to sit. When you come around to check my ticket, mark my seat with your little strip of paper. If I find it necessary to move, I will let you know. If couple gets on and needs my seat, I will move. BTW...large groups (which I have yet to really encounter in 30 years of riding Amtrak) don't have to sit together. In some cases, they may not want to be bunched up as they will be spending enough time together when they get to their destination. The employees of Amtrak seem to forget who is paying for the seats they control...


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## Anderson (Sep 29, 2019)

wwchi said:


> While many of these arguments are valid - if I am purchasing my seat 2 months in advance Amtrak has my money already and I have paid for that seat. It's the benefit of having more to choose from if you book early. Same with a plane. While I realize a plane only goes from point A to point B, it is similar in that you have greater availability early. I would fully expect that if I wanted to CHANGE my train to an earlier or later one I would have to take whatever is available. I am a regular rider and have been for 15 years - wouldn't it be nice to get some benefit to pick a seat? Maybe that's how they do it - make that an extra perk for Select/Select Plus riders...again, like airlines do for their "frequent flyers". All of which is doable on Airline apps and could be on the Amtrak app if they figured it out.


There are several issues:
(1) VIA is a bit closer to the airlines insofar as you don't get a _huge_ amount of turnover en route on a number of trains. My experience is quite Business Class-centric, but the turnover between Montreal and Quebec City and Montreal and Ottawa is close to zero. It skews a little higher between Montreal/Ottawa and Toronto, but not a lot. On Amtrak (particularly on the VA-Boston Regionals), a seat can _easily_ turn over 3-5 times, so misaligned seat assignments run the risk of turning over a non-trivial number of through passengers. I would rather not see Amtrak lose perhaps 5% of through capacity because of seating preference misalignments. Please note that this _is_ a known issue on the LD trains...more than one AU member has had to switch roomettes partway along a trip (the Builder is one of the more frequent offenders IIRC) because of misaligned room availability. Now, I know that's a case of 20-40 roomettes versus a few hundred seats, but I think the point is still the same. The chance of this sort of mess is increased if a train ends up adding or cutting cars for a given run.
(2) There's also the fact that a VA-originating train takes about 6-8 hours to get to New York. You'd need to either (a) require seat selection to be locked in prior to departure from origin or (b) require everyone to have a seat assignment or you're going to run into a situation where somebody wants to move to an empty seat and someone down-line reserves it and you have problems unless the conductor mucks about with it on his app.
(2a) If you go to universal seat assignments you also run into losing the ability to marginally overbook. Given that Amtrak _can_ accommodate a hatful of excess pax in the cafe (in particular) on most trains, I think this is another loss to seriously weigh.
(3) And then there's the fact that boarding is functionally restricted to 2-3 doors on a train at low-level stations for high-level trains (e.g. Regionals in Virginia). _This_ is a problem because if you have an ADA passenger boarding and the "wrong" door is opened (or in some cases, you can't platform the right cars without an extra spot) then you're either going to have to switch doors, re-spot, or force the passenger to pass through potentially several cars.
(4) Speaking to my experience last week, trying to move seats around if you've got a party split over two (or more) reservation numbers is a real pain, and if you go to an "automated" assignment system this can get you into a spot if you're trying to pick seats for a group. Again, to date in the US the only trains that do this are the Acela (in First) and Brightline (with three stations and four cars per train).
(5) Finally (in this litany, at least), trains _do_ run with variable consists. Telling two dozen passengers in Coach 6 that, well, today we're running with five coaches (as a seven-car train) and you've got to re-pick your assignment? Not a great situation, and this can happen a lot more than equipment swaps tend to happen.

Honestly, even as somebody who has occasionally had to fish for a seat (and has wound up parked in the cafe once or twice), I think this would be a craptacular "improvement". I'd also note that, like airlines, I have little doubt that somebody at Amtrak will try to find a way to monetize this...and I don't like that prospect, either.

So, with all due respect, if you're S+ or SE (and I've been SE for _years_), I think you've got a number of solid benefits and perks such as being able to reliably pull an upgrade on many trains if you've got the upgrade card to offer (as opposed to hoping for a pleasant surprise at the gate) and lounge access both with Amtrak _and United. _I don't think that piling a "seat assignment" benefit into the mix under most circumstances is a net add for anyone.


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## railiner (Sep 29, 2019)

One other consideration about 'enforcing' assigned seating between an airliner and a train...there is a flight attendant for every 50 passengers (by law for safety) on an airliner...how many train crew on an 800 passenger regional train?


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## jis (Sep 29, 2019)

Almost nothing can be enforced unless the collective chooses to obey the rules. Things work in other places simply because people have bought into whatever the "tradition" is over the years. Changing such takes a lot of effort.

The situation is further complicated in the US because train service generally is pretty sparse even on the busiest routes/corridors when compared to corridors of similar length and population density elsewhere. It is much easier to provided multiple choices of levels of service including assigned seating or being able to self select assignments, since there is a large inventory from which a reasonable sized portion can be hived out for such enhanced service. In the US we can barely hive out Business Class and Quiet Car on a few of our busiest corridors without adversely affecting overall capacity.

Given this situation we have to be somewhat circumspect about what other "good to have features" can be implemented without causing undue disruption to the relatively meager capacity that we have. It gets much much worse in our LD network, which barely exists and hangs on for dear life with one or less train per day on most routes. Until rail passenger service becomes really a more serious part of our transportation mix with an order of magnitude larger system it is possible that niceties like assigned seating, or true 'Express" as in "does not stop en route too much", may be best foregone. Already "milk runs" on most of the national network is unheard of, since you can;t do that and also run a reasonably faast service, when all you have is one train per day.


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## jiml (Sep 29, 2019)

Even the efficient Germans haven't got this down perfectly. Despite preassigning seats on every train we rode during our last visit, it was sometimes necessary for staff to evict others - especially "self-upgraders" from reserved seats. Boarding at FRA airport - one stop into the train's journey to AMS, we found our FC compartment completely full. A couple of people left when asked; others needed some encouragement. When the ticket checks were complete only one other passenger and us remained for the rest of the journey.


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## Qapla (Sep 29, 2019)

No, I am not an Amtrak employee - and never have been ... it is just that I have not experienced any hardship with the current arrangement for seating.

I do not need a "specific" seat when I sit in coach - so, I have never asked for a "specific" seat. I have asked to sit "together" when there were two of us and was accommodated. My brother asked to change side of the car to see the other side on a return trip and was accommodated. I have asked to sit near the center of the car and have been accommodated.

I have NOT insisted on a particular seat or felt "picked on" when the coach car was crowded and my request could not be accommodated. I found that, if I just sat where asked, shortly a more desirable seat opened up and the attendant let me move.

That is why I said that, since the system seems to work, for the most part, I see no need to change it.


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## Anderson (Sep 29, 2019)

Just a thought, in response to the version @railbuck suggested: Amtrak may have a good handle on the ridership mix for the LD trains at that point. Corridor trains (which generally at least have additional frequencies) fill up rather closer to departure. I know it isn't Amtrak and I know the service frequencies are higher, but my experience monitoring Brightline at this time last year was fascinating...you had something like 50% day-of-travel ticket purchases. The issue at _that _stage is that you're either jamming a seat assignment into somebody's hands to optimize loads or you're looking at a messy filling process that doesn't _usually_ afflict the airlines.

This would also go better if Amtrak had predictable practices for platforming a given coach at a given station. The signs saying "Sleeper" or "Business Class" are much closer to vague suggestions than actual indications.

Also, I think the potential inability to accommodate groups due to seat selection scattering is a negative (and indeed, it is a known issue on airlines, especially where families with kids get into the mix). Now, mind you that once led to me having a fascinating two-hour chat with the Guatemalan justice minister (he was up for the chat, and I was sixteen so the ability to talk serious politics with somebody from a foreign country was _quite_ cool) instead of just chatting with my aunt and uncle...but I readily accept that as being an outlier.


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## Qapla (Sep 29, 2019)

When it comes to seating on the train - it can't really be compared to seating on an airplane.

A longest passenger plane is about 250' and is generally loaded from a walkway that extends to the loading door or a set of steps rolled up to that door. This gives the passengers one door on or off.

A train has a door on every car. Each of those doors can be (and sometimes are) used for boarding. Many of Amtrak's trains are 900'+ with a boarding door about every 85'. The problem comes in that, not all train depots have loading platforms that are as long as the train. For that reason, sometimes people board directly into the car they are going to ride/sit in and sometimes they have to load in a car that is several cars away from their seats.

Often, the door(s) used are dictated by the placement of the boarding platform in conjunction with grade crossings. People do not load in the middle of a road just because the train is stopped across that road.

Planes often completely load and unload at a given stop - often trains only partially load at a terminus and then load and unload with passengers leaving and coming from and through cars where people are already sitting, eating, sleeping and/or talking. A train disturbs more people on a regular basis than most planes due while enroute.

Allowing people to preselect seats could possibly add to the amount of traffic in all coach cars when it is not really needed or desired by those already seated.

The long and short of it ... there is no simple one-size-fits-all solution that would work for all people on all trains.


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