# Trip Report for Empire Builder



## Kramerica (Nov 30, 2007)

Just found this group a few weeks ago. Wished I would have seen it before our first and only Amtrak trip last June. Would have gotten many great tips! I just wanted to share our trip experience before posting soon about questions I have regarding next year's possible Amtrak trip.

My wife and I flew out to Seattle from Milwaukee on Saturday June 9 2007. It took all day since we had two layovers. Not very relaxing. One of my best friends lives out there (Mercer Island) now and he picked us up from the airport and we spent the next week at his place. We took many side trips, including Olympic NP, NW Trek, Mt Ranier NP, San Juan Islands, and of course many things in downtown Seattle.

On Sunday June 17 he dropped us off at the Amtrak station. The station looked like it was undergoing very slow renovations. You could tell the station was grand at one time, but had been covered up by drop ceilings and whatnot. Anyway, the station had a lot of people and didn't seem very organized. We got our tickets from the ticket agent and sat down to wait.

We had a while to wait, so I was wandering around the station. Somewhat near the ticket counter I saw an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper hanging on the wall with 12 point font. I read it three times before I understood what it was saying, since it was written in railroad techno-babble. (I'm a mechanical engineer, so I'm sure most people there without a technical background wouldn't have even understood the posting at all!) It said that due to track work near Tomah, all passengers getting off between MSP and CHI would have to detour via bus. Well, that stinks.

Eventually we boarded and took our coach seats. The train was full and we weren't one of the first ones on, so our window positioning wasn't the greatest. But it was OK. We were on the left side of the train. The train consist (I've learned some new terminology here already!) was engines, then sleeper cars (not sure how many), diner, then two coach cars. When the Portland train connected to us in Spokane, added to the back of us was the lounge car, two more coaches, and then then the sleepers. The train left on time, exactly to the minute as I recall.

When our car attendant (I don't remember her name, but she was very nice) came around, I asked about the detour. She said she had just found out about it too. I asked her to get more information for us. Over the next 1.5 days, she would try, but no one she talked to could tell her anything. For a first-time Amtrak rider, this was very frustrating.

We brought Subway subs for supper on the train, which was a great meal. We watched the awesome scenery of Puget Sound and then the great climb up the Cascades. The view from our seats were good, but I really wish the lounge car was available. Being it almost the longest day of the year, it didn't get dark until after Wenatchee. After that we read for a while and then tried to go to sleep.

We went into the trip expecting to not sleep well in coach, so we weren't disappointed. We slept on and off throught the night. I remember being awake in Spokane and that's about it. Just before we got to Libby at 5:30 AM, the sky was starting to get light and I went to the lounge car so my wife could have more room. I was was awake anyway and wanted to see the scenery. (She had the window seat!) I essentially spent the next five hours there, with a break to wash up and change clothes. I also got some breakfast downstairs in the cafe. I just loved watching all the scenery, especially going around Glacier NP. The snow sheds were neat. I don't think we stopped at Essex that morning. I stayed in the lounge until 10:30 or so when we got to West Glacier.

I recall us being about an hour behind schedule for part of that day. But by the evening and by the time we got to Minneapolis, we were on time.

Being on the train during the day was great. Watching the scenery go by as we played cards in the lounge, as we read, and as we ate. Being able to move around was excellent. So much better than airline travel. Also got off the train once in Havre and saw the neat old train display. During the afternoon there was a group of boy scouts who interviewed our attendant about her job. Luckily I happened to be in the lounge near them and got to overhear the whole thing. Learned a lot of interesting tidbits about life on the rails.

I was very glad that I brought my slippers on the train. Wore them the whole time, and they were more comfortable than tennis shoes.

We got food from the cafe again for lunch. Basically overpriced vending machine food. But the prices there and in the dining car were pretty much what I expected, so I wasn't disappointed at all.

For dinner we decided to try the dining car at least once on the trip. Of course by the time they got to coach for reservations, the only option was the late seating. But that was fine, since we were snacking throughout the day. When we were seated the train was stopped in Minot, and unfortunately we already had our food before the train got going again. Bad timing I guess. My wife and I aren't real socialites, so we weren't really looking forward to forced conversation at dinner. But luckily we got a woman in her 40's and her teenage daughter who were nice to talk to. The food was good and I especially liked the cheesecake.

[i've read a bunch of stuff on this site about the dining car and cafe car. Was the diner we had the top-notch one? Or was it a reduced menu? I have no idea.]

Most of the train employees were very nice and helpful. There were two that annoyed us though. The cafe worker was very anal-retentive. You must do everything in HER order. And the diner steward who was in charge of reservations really overused the PA system with her annoying voice. During each meal period she would be over the PA a dozen times to announce things, and she never forgot to admonish us not to go to the diner until we were called! Geez, lady, we get it. And those who don't get it won't just because you announce it 50 times. But at least it was somewhat comical.

By the time we went to sleep the second night, we still had no information about our bus ride the next day, which was aggrevating. We woke up near St. Cloud the next morning and got ready to de-train. I spend the hours dreading the bus ride and was in a terrible mood by the time I got on the bus. We had to stop at every stop except for LaCrosse and in Tomah the bus filled up completely, so we were very cramped. Here's what I wrote at the time on another forum when someone suggested we should have taken the train to Chicago and then the Hiawatha back to MKE: (keep in mind I was very angry for weeks afterward)

WE WEREN'T OFFERED THAT OPTION AND AMTRAK'S EMPLOYEES HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON. This was the major reason. We didn't find out about the detour until minutes before boarding the train in Seattle. I saw a single 8" x 11" piece of paper with some technical mumbo-jumbo about it in the huge station. I'm sure half the passengers would not have even been able to understand what it was saying. It took me three reads to get the message. Earlier when we got our tickets at the ticket counter, the employee didn't mention a word to us. When we got on the train, we asked our car attendant and she had just found out and had no info. She tried to get some over the next 1.5 days, but no one could give her any answers. I wanted to know where the bus was going, when we'd get home, and what our other options were. We got nothing except for herded onto the bus in Minneapolis. When we did get on the bus, we found out that some people got phone calls the previous week about the detour, while some (including a group who boarded that morning at MSP and was going to MKE and would have just driven if they would have known) didn't get a call. It turns out that when we got home there was a message from Amtrak about the detour. Well gee, thanks a lot. I WAS ALREADY ON VACATION WHEN YOU CALLED. At least they could have emailed me using the email address I used when I booked ONLINE. Then I would have gotten the message. And some people on the bus said they had checked the Amtrak page beforehand and it mentioned nothing about the detour. So even if I would have checked the site, it wouldn't have told me.
 
I don't blame Amtrak for the track work and the detour; of course that is going to happen sometimes. But their handling of the situation and communication with the passengers was beyond abhorrent. My entire Amtrak experience (MY FIRST, way to win new customers you idiots!) was ruined. I loved the one day I did spend on the train, but always in the back of my mind was the dread of the bus ride from MSP. And of course sleeping in coach sucked, but it was expected. But unfortunately we only had one good day to offset the two bad nights and one terrible day. A 1:3 good to bad ratio isn't a good thing. Now, 2:2 would be OK, especially if you're expecting the 2 bad nights and decided it was worth it.
 
And of the two days we were to spend on the train, I was really looking forward to the day going across Wisconsin, (as opposed to the day across MT/ND) because I'm familiar with it and was really looking forward to seeing our home state from a new perspective. Not to mention the great scenery along the Mississippi, which could be considered just as good as any of the mountain scenery we saw.
 
Another option, and the one we probably would have taken if we were given options, was for them to rent us a car so we could drive ourselves home. At least that way we would have gotten home on time or even earlier, been comfortable and not cramped, and been able to stop to eat where we wanted. (Thanks for that $5 credit at the Wisconsin Dells Burger King, boy that was some great eats there Amtrak!)
 
Maybe if you're a regular user of Amtrak and use it more for regular travel from one place to another, taking a bus ride very infrequently might not be a big problem. But for us, we spent more money (considering we had to buy a one-way flight to Seattle, which is 2/3 the cost of a round-trip ticket) and I used one more precious vacation day than flying both ways. The reason we spent $100 more and spent an extra vacation day (which could have been better used on a trip to the zoo than a bus ride) was for the train experience. And we had half of that taken away. And of course it is just made worse because the one day we did have on the train was so great and we knew what we were missing as we were cramped and uncomfortable and unable to walk around while travelling the same old highways we've been on dozens of times before on that bus detour.
We got into MKE 1.5 hours late. The train had been on time in Minneapolis.

Eventually, after emailing Amtrak with no response, I called and they gave me $100 voucher which expires within the year. I'm tempted to call back and say that's not enough. I'd like for them to give $200 back, as that's the price of two round-trip tickets from MKE to Minneapolis, so we could see what we missed. I'd also like to have more than one year to use it up. Anyone think I'd be successful with a call back to Amtrak?

The other forum was able to say where the train detour went. The track work was in Fort McCoy and the train went down the BNSF to Savanna and then east through Rochelle, Aurora, and Cicero. That would have been awesome to see too.

Now that six months have passed I have more of a positive view of the trip. The one day we were on the train during the day was awesome. We've decided that we'll be getting a roomette the next time, too. (The Amtrak site needs to do a much better job with communicating that the sleepers include meals. And I mean more information than just that sentence. What kind of meals, how many, etc. Now that I'm on this forum I've got a good idea, but as a newbie on the Amtrak website, there was no way to know.) It'll be very nice to have a horizontal bed. Also, you've gotta have the mindset that time is meaningless, and plan on getting to your destination at least a couple hours late.


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## AlanB (Nov 30, 2007)

Kramerica,

First, thanks for an interesting and detailed trip report.



Kramerica said:


> Just found this group a few weeks ago. Wished I would have seen it before our first and only Amtrak trip last June. Would have gotten many great tips! I just wanted to share our trip experience before posting soon about questions I have regarding next year's possible Amtrak trip.


Ask away! That's why this site is here. 



Kramerica said:


> [i've read a bunch of stuff on this site about the dining car and cafe car. Was the diner we had the top-notch one? Or was it a reduced menu? I have no idea.]


You had the top-notch service, where some food is still cooked to order on the train.



Kramerica said:


> And the diner steward who was in charge of reservations really overused the PA system with her annoying voice. During each meal period she would be over the PA a dozen times to announce things, and she never forgot to admonish us not to go to the diner until we were called! Geez, lady, we get it. And those who don't get it won't just because you announce it 50 times. But at least it was somewhat comical.


You're right; those who don't get it won't get it because they announce it 50 times. And there are plenty who don't get it, trust me.



Kramerica said:


> Here's what I wrote at the time on another forum when someone suggested we should have taken the train to Chicago and then the Hiawatha back to MKE: (keep in mind I was very angry for weeks afterward)


And since there was a bus, you wouldn't have been offered that option. The bus was the only option. You could have brought two tickets from MKE to Chicago on the EB, and then brought another two tickets on the Hiawatha, but it would have been at your expense. Perhaps if you had known while still in Seattle, maybe you could have talked someone into giving you those tickets for free, but I wouldn't bet on it.



Kramerica said:


> When we did get on the bus, we found out that some people got phone calls the previous week about the detour, while some (including a group who boarded that morning at MSP and was going to MKE and would have just driven if they would have known) didn't get a call. It turns out that when we got home there was a message from Amtrak about the detour. Well gee, thanks a lot. I WAS ALREADY ON VACATION WHEN YOU CALLED. At least they could have emailed me using the email address I used when I booked ONLINE. Then I would have gotten the message.


I'm not sure why Amtrak doesn't email people, as it would be cheaper, but I guess that they feel it's better to call and perhaps be able to handle any changes right then and there. And they of course have no idea whether you're still home or away. That's why I always book using my cell phone number, such that I get a call if there is one.



Kramerica said:


> I don't blame Amtrak for the track work and the detour; of course that is going to happen sometimes. But their handling of the situation and communication with the passengers was beyond abhorrent. My entire Amtrak experience (MY FIRST, way to win new customers you idiots!) was ruined. I loved the one day I did spend on the train, but always in the back of my mind was the dread of the bus ride from MSP. And of course sleeping in coach sucked, but it was expected. But unfortunately we only had one good day to offset the two bad nights and one terrible day. A 1:3 good to bad ratio isn't a good thing. Now, 2:2 would be OK, especially if you're expecting the 2 bad nights and decided it was worth it.


I won't deny that Amtrak probably could have done a better job, but IIRC this track work was sprung on them by the host RR as a bit of a surprise. I don't think that they were given all that much warning. In fact while I'll have to go and look, I don't wonder if this wasn't caused by flooding.



Kramerica said:


> Another option, and the one we probably would have taken if we were given options, was for them to rent us a car so we could drive ourselves home. At least that way we would have gotten home on time or even earlier, been comfortable and not cramped, and been able to stop to eat where we wanted. (Thanks for that $5 credit at the Wisconsin Dells Burger King, boy that was some great eats there Amtrak!)


And again, they wouldn't have rented you a car. The option was the bus.



Kramerica said:


> Eventually, after emailing Amtrak with no response, I called and they gave me $100 voucher which expires within the year. I'm tempted to call back and say that's not enough. I'd like for them to give $200 back, as that's the price of two round-trip tickets from MKE to Minneapolis, so we could see what we missed. I'd also like to have more than one year to use it up. Anyone think I'd be successful with a call back to Amtrak?


Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you even got $100, so I'm not sure that you'll get any more out of them. You must have played up the lack of information angle to get that.

As for the voucher itself, if you see that you aren't going to use it before the year is up, then you can send in the voucher to Amtrak prior to its expiration and Amtrak will reissue you a new voucher good for yet another year. Note: Make sure that you get it into Amtrak before the expiration date, otherwise it becomes a worthless souvenir. I would also suggest sending it via registered mail.


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## Kramerica (Nov 30, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Kramerica,
> First, thanks for an interesting and detailed trip report.


I only hope it was at least halfway as interesting and informative as the other reports I've read!



AlanB said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > [i've read a bunch of stuff on this site about the dining car and cafe car. Was the diner we had the top-notch one? Or was it a reduced menu? I have no idea.]
> ...


Is that expected to go away on all routes in the future?



AlanB said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > When we did get on the bus, we found out that some people got phone calls the previous week about the detour, while some (including a group who boarded that morning at MSP and was going to MKE and would have just driven if they would have known) didn't get a call. It turns out that when we got home there was a message from Amtrak about the detour. Well gee, thanks a lot. I WAS ALREADY ON VACATION WHEN YOU CALLED. At least they could have emailed me using the email address I used when I booked ONLINE. Then I would have gotten the message.
> ...


Yeah, I don't understand why they don't email either. I guess I can see that they want to talk to someone to resolve it right away, but if you don't talk to anyone, then you could email at that point.

That's a good tip about using your cell number for travel stuff. We never give out our cell number, but that would be a good exception to that.



AlanB said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > Another option, and the one we probably would have taken if we were given options, was for them to rent us a car so we could drive ourselves home. At least that way we would have gotten home on time or even earlier, been comfortable and not cramped, and been able to stop to eat where we wanted. (Thanks for that $5 credit at the Wisconsin Dells Burger King, boy that was some great eats there Amtrak!)
> ...


Not that I even saw a car rental place near the MSP station. That station placement really makes no sense for visitors to MSP. Hopefully the light rail line that is planned between the cities has a stop near the Amtrak station.

Actually, if there had been some way to find out about car rentals before we got on the bus, I think we would have paid up to $100 to rent the car ourselves.



AlanB said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > Eventually, after emailing Amtrak with no response, I called and they gave me $100 voucher which expires within the year. I'm tempted to call back and say that's not enough. I'd like for them to give $200 back, as that's the price of two round-trip tickets from MKE to Minneapolis, so we could see what we missed. I'd also like to have more than one year to use it up. Anyone think I'd be successful with a call back to Amtrak?
> ...


I guess I won't waste my time calling Amtrak then. Thanks for the time on renewing the voucher, although hopefully I'll be using it up before then. At the very least I should be using part of it up for a round trip on the Hiawatha.


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## AlanB (Nov 30, 2007)

Kramerica said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Kramerica said:
> ...


It's already gone on all routes except for the Empire Builder and the Auto Train. Hopefully it won't go away on those two routes and I certainly would hope not, especially considering the success of the Empire Builder compared to the other long distance trains. If however Amtrak is planning on cutting it back, so far there have been no wispers or rumors to that end.

There actually is some hope that the Coast Starlight may once again get the better service, but so far I don't think that anyone other than Amtrak knows for sure if that's true. I've also heard a few rumors about better service on the Capitol Limited too.


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## RailFanLNK (Dec 1, 2007)

Kramerica,

Thanks for your posts. And thank you for being openminded enough to take Amtrak one more time. Your situation would have sucked. I have had 14 trips on Amtrak. Seven total but counting they are all RT. Only 2 of the 14 have been challenging. One because the CZ (California Zephyr) was running 12 hours late due to flooding in Western Colorado and no one at the 800 number could tell me when it was going to arrive in WIP (Winter Park CO) an unstaffed station in the mountains where it was cold. All I wanted was an "hour" estimate so I could be there. Finally after a CSR could hear the exasperation in my voice she called UP (Union Pacific) and told me exactly where the train was and when to be at the outdoor unstaffed platform. (in the middle of the night) That trip had the train packed beyond the gills. Sat right next to a guy who just was released from San Quentin. Did he scare me? No, but it was quite the unusual bantering with him about our lives or the difference of our lives. The other was this summer. The trip wasn't bad, but the dining car crew needed to be kicked off the train and then have their ****'s kicked in a back alley somewhere. My girlfriend and I and her two teenage kids would have been the first in line to buy tickets to be in the ****kickers line!  The other 12 trips have been wonderful! I love travelling by rail now. To me...Amtrak can be kinda punk rock! Barebones, not fancy, skittish, exciting, nauseating, adventerous.....the whole nine yards! Remember: The Ramones were punk rock and they were cool!  Try it again, definately get a roomette and maybe try a tad bit slower time of year such as March or April where there isn't all sorts of track work and families with kids etc. Thanks for having an open mind too!


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## Kramerica (Dec 1, 2007)

rail rookie said:


> And thank you for being openminded enough to take Amtrak one more time.


Well, I did even realize at the time that the track work is not under Amtrak's control. But the communication and options for me as the passenger certainly were. Even right after the trip, the greatness of the train ride was just as prominent in my mind as the huge hassle. But now after many months, I just think about how relaxing the ride was and how I'd like to do it again. Hopefully the odds will be with me next time.



rail rookie said:


> Try it again, definately get a roomette and maybe try a tad bit slower time of year such as March or April where there isn't all sorts of track work and families with kids etc. Thanks for having an open mind too!


I'd love to take a train in late April / early May, to get longer sunlight and also be less busy. But alas, my wife is a teacher, so our options are pretty limited.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2007)

Kramerica said:


> I'd love to take a train in late April / early May, to get longer sunlight and also be less busy. But alas, my wife is a teacher, so our options are pretty limited.


And that I can understand with a brother whose an Assistant principal and his wife whose a teacher. I'm not sure that busy is something to really worry about, but I will tell you to make and set any plans as early as possible. Basically you can book Amtrak 11 months out, and for the best prices you want to do any bookings as early as you possibly can. Every day you wait to book, could see a price increase of $100 or more, especially for a sleeper.

I've traveled extensivly during both the peak summer months and during off peak times. Service can be good or bad, without regard to the time of the year.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

Kramerica said:


> Not that I even saw a car rental place near the MSP station. That station placement really makes no sense for visitors to MSP. Hopefully the light rail line that is planned between the cities has a stop near the Amtrak station.


The closest LRT Station will be about 3/4 mile from the Amtrak Station in MSP. Of course, maybe by the time the LRT line is up and running (approx 2014) maybe Amtrak will be stopping at Union Depot in downtown St. Paul. Farther for us Minneapolitans to go but a better location for out of towners.


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## stlouielady (Dec 2, 2007)

Kramerica said:


> Not that I even saw a car rental place near the MSP station.


Just an FYI if you ever end up there again: Hertz has a rental desk inside the MSP station, to the left of the ticket counters as you are facing them. They are open from 7am to 6pm M-F, 9am to 1pm on Saturday, and closed on Sunday. There are also always taxicabs at the station that will take you to the airport to pick up a car.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 5, 2007)

That was an excellent report. I agree with you on the bus ride. I hate them, and would do almost anything to avoid them. I 20 years of riding Amtrak 2 or three times a year. I have had only one or two bus rides. So I am lucky. I once rode from Chicago to MSP to experience that detour. It is a nice ride, and it is worth the effort to ride to Chicago, and then take the train to MSP. If you keep tabs on Amtrak's website, and in this forum, you will hear about it in advance.

Also, take the California Zephyr someday. This is one of the most scenic routes in the country. If you dont want to do two nights, stop over in Glenwood Springs or Grand Junction. This will at least give you a chance to see the best scenery.


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