# GADOT supports Atlanta-Lovejoy line



## Superliner Diner (Sep 16, 2005)

Georgia Department of Transportation News Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: September 15, 2005

*State Transportation Board Reaffirms its Support of an Atlanta-Lovejoy Commuter Rail Line*

ATLANTA – The State Transportation Board Thursday reaffirmed its support of an Atlanta-Lovejoy commuter rail line.

In a 7-5 vote, the board adopted a resolution offered by board member Dana Lemon of McDonough authorizing GDOT Commissioner Harold Linnenkohl to enter into an agreement with Clayton County to establish the line. The agreement would include provisions for the funding of deficits for the maintenance and operation of the rail line “following the successful execution of an agreement with Norfolk Southern Railway Company for access to the rail corridor.”

In 1999, the board directed GDOT to establish a commuter rail program and in March, 2004, authorized the department to negotiate with Norfolk Southern for access to the rail line. Those negotiations continue.

The 26-mile rail corridor would connect Atlanta, with a Multi-Modal Passenger Terminal adjacent to the Five Points MARTA station, and Lovejoy in southern Clayton County with stops in East Point, Forest Park, Morrow and Jonesboro.

Startup costs are estimated at $106 million; $19 million has been allocated by the state and Congress has appropriated $87 million.

The line’s operating cost is expected to be $7 million per year; fares are expected to cover 40 percent of that cost. Federal Congestion and Mitigation and Air Quality funds, matched with state toll credits will provide the remaining funding needed for the first three years of operation.

Four trains are scheduled to run daily, running every 30 to 40 minutes carrying up to 440 passengers in double-deck train cars. The length of the trip is expected to take 46 minutes.

The line is expected to be in operation by October, 2006.

Critics of Ms. Lemon’s resolution wanted to wait for a report from Gov. Sonny Perdue’s Congestion Mitigation Task Force, which is due by Dec. 31.

Voting in favor of the resolution were Ward Edwards of Butler, Billy Langdale of Valdosta, Robert Brown of Decatur, Johnny Gresham of Marietta, Sam Wellborn of Columbus, Ms. Lemon, and Emory McClinton of Atlanta, who participated via telephone hookup.

Voting against the resolution were Roy Herrington of Baxley, Garland Pinholster of Ball Ground, Bill Kuhlke of Augusta, Mike Evans of Cumming and Raybon Anderson of Statesboro.

Board chairman David Doss of Rome votes only to make or break a tie.

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## Superliner Diner (Sep 16, 2005)

It's the first time I have seen a list of the intermediate stations planned between Atlanta and Lovejoy.

Now a question to our Georgia expert, Bill Haithcoat: Does a commuter rail stop in East Point mean a multimodal station where one could easily transfer between commuter rail and MARTA heavy rail?


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## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 16, 2005)

Superliner Diner said:


> It's the first time I have seen a list of the intermediate stations planned between Atlanta and Lovejoy.
> Now a question to our Georgia expert, Bill Haithcoat:   Does a commuter rail stop in East Point mean a multimodal station where one could easily transfer between commuter rail and MARTA heavy rail?



Yes, there is a MARTA East Point stop.very near the main line. Interestingly, and beyond the point of your inquiry, there is a small railroad museum(very small) near the East Point Station. As I recall, it is a model train layout and not too much else.


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## Superliner Diner (Sep 16, 2005)

> The 26-mile rail corridor would connect Atlanta, with a Multi-Modal Passenger Terminal adjacent to the Five Points MARTA station





> The line is expected to be in operation by October, 2006.


So is there an intermodal transportation center under construction in downtown Atlanta? If they are going to get this up and running 13 months from now, I hope they are starting to build a place for the trains to take the passengers.

And if they open the station then, does that mean the Crescent will begin going downtown as well? I think everyone (except maybe you, Bill) would like to see Amtrak get out of that cramped Brookwood station.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 19, 2005)

Yeah, I would miss the convenience of having my own train just six blocks away, and to which I can walk as long as I use luggage with wheels! B)  :lol:

On a more serious note, I will believe that downtown inter-modal facility as soon as I see it!! There has been talk of it for years............I do not THINK any construction has begun.

Some thoughts: living here, I can say that the present location actually is a well known landmark. It seems almost everybody knows where the Amtrak station is....even if they never use it. I have seen local use change from calling it the Brookwood Station, (which was never correct, it was called "Peachtree Street Station" in the timetables) to the "Amtrak Station".

Not to say another location, such as downtown, would not be better, just to point out it is not forgotten sitting there by itself.

Note the present train goes through ATl almost exactly east-west even though it is considered a north-bouth route. When it leaves ATl going south it actually continues due west to BHM, not going toward downtown ATl at all. Thus, going over to the Five Points Station, also being near the old termnals, is somewhat out of the way.

So, I assume the tracks are still in place for it getting downtown from the present station, from the days when it used to do that?Guess they are still needed for freights? There are lots of things about ATL railroading I do not know since both downtown stations, etc were all torn down before I moved here 28 years ago.

There was only one train, then called the "Southerner", which used the route on the train which is today called the "Crescent" (the name changes through the years are a story all unto themselves) . For it to get from the suburban station("Brookwood", "Peachtree Street"} to the downtown station it had a few miles to go, and come back on.

I THINK, going south, it paused at Brookwood, then went locomotive first into the downtown station. DId its business, then backed way the heck back more or less to Brookwood again, then headed "west" or "south" as you like to BHM and NOL.

Then, northbound, I THINK it sort of went not-quite-to Brookwood, paused, backed a long time toward downtown,did it's business loading and unloading then pulled out to Brookwood and beyond. I actually boarded the northbound Southerner one time, at the old station downtown and I THINK that is what it did (been about 40 years, I guess, so I could be wrong).

Doing that today under Amtrak, is going to add some time and expense to the operation, but maybe they have all that worked out.

The Southerner was, by the way, the only train which did this. Other Southern R.R. trains, including the one which at that time was called the Crescent, went to Montgomery and Mobile from ATl to NOL. So, when they left the suburban stop they went on to the left into town, paused at the main downtown terminal, then continued south to Montgomery,Mobile and NOL No need to come back to get back on the mainline again, as they were on another main, another railroad (Atlanta and West Point to Montgomery, then Louisville & Nashville to NOL, some of this being the same route which the Sunset Limited uses today.

Another quesion I have. If they do restore service downtown,I wonder if it will still continue to stop at the present station, thus, causing it to revert to its original purpose as a suburban stop?

In all my above ramble, I know you realize the old stations were very near the present Marta FIve Points Station, so the logistics would be about the same..

Maybe Amtrak P-42 will have some comments on this, esp.knowing if all the tracks are still in place. Or whether he has heard of any serious building of a new intermodel structure.

And, yes, sure, if such an intermodal faciltiy really does open up, I hope the Crescent does manage to find the tracks still in place to get over there and back, being that all of that is several miles to the left of the main line, going south/west. Oh yes, and it will then just switch from being near my apartment to being near my office, so that would still a good thing!!!

 :lol:


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## Superliner Diner (Oct 14, 2005)

Bill,

I recall seeing, probably in some old edition of NARP's or Georgia ARP's newsletters, a map showing how the CRESCENT would go if it served a downtown intermodal station. The route they showed ensured that it would not have to do any reverse moves in either direction. I am not sure if these tracks are currently in place, or if they would have to be built.

The southbound CRESCENT would diverge from the NS mainline around the current Amtrak station (no word on whether "Peachtree Street" would continue to be served), and loop far to the east, and the swing around to the west so that it is running on the westbound east-west track that runs parallel to the east-west MARTA line. It would then just continue to the west over some connection to its current route.

Likewise for the northbound CRESCENT -- it would go eastward right into the new station, and then hang a left on the sweeping loop track that would bring it back northwestward into the NS mainline and its current route.


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## AMTRAK-P42 (Oct 16, 2005)

On a slight side note, the original tracks to the old main station (the original terminus) are actually still in place. They travel under the dome and are frequently used to store the circus train when it is in town. If you go the bridge directly after the dome (south, I believe), you can still see the old platforms.


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## Superliner Diner (Oct 19, 2005)

AMTRAK-P42 said:


> On a slight side note, the original tracks to the old main station (the original terminus) are actually still in place. They travel under the dome and are frequently used to store the circus train when it is in town. If you go the bridge directly after the dome (south, I believe), you can still see the old platforms.


Wasn't the original terminus, the one that got the city the name "Terminus" before it was called Atlanta, in the vicinity of where Underground Atlanta now is? That would have been the location of the Zero Milepost.

The Georgia Railroad depot is still standing and in fact I saw it being used for some affair one of the last times I was in town.


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## AMTRAK-P42 (Oct 20, 2005)

Superliner Diner said:


> AMTRAK-P42 said:
> 
> 
> > On a slight side note, the original tracks to the old main station (the original terminus) are actually still in place. They travel under the dome and are frequently used to store the circus train when it is in town. If you go the bridge directly after the dome (south, I believe), you can still see the old platforms.
> ...


Yea, you are right that; mile post 0.0 was near underground. However, the station used by Southern before the current Peachtree station is still in place and was the one I was referring to.


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## George Harris (Apr 14, 2006)

The Gerogia Railroad operated out of Union Station, not Terminal Station way back when there was multi-train passenger service in Atlanta. I believe that Union Station stayed in use all the way up to Amtrak, with the last user being L&N for sure and Georgia RR, maybe. (or did the remnant of the Georgian not last until Amtrak?) Southern, CofG, Seaboard, and West Point Route were users of the Terminal Station.

George


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 3, 2006)

George Harris said:


> The Gerogia Railroad operated out of Union Station, not Terminal Station way back when there was multi-train passenger service in Atlanta.  I believe that Union Station stayed in use all the way up to Amtrak, with the last user being L&N for sure and Georgia RR, maybe. (or did the remnant of the Georgian not last until Amtrak?)  Southern, CofG, Seaboard, and West Point Route were users of the Terminal Station.
> George


The last train into Union Station was, indeed, the remnants of the once proud Georgian, And I, of course,was on it!!

We arrived ATl about 2.5 hours late.Took a Greyhound back home to Chattanooga that afternoon.

By that time the Georgia Railroad was originating over by the Freight Depot, I believe, not sure.

Mr. Harris, you can appreciate this: a big part of my childhood was the enjoyment of mother and me boarding the Georgian in CHA spending the day in ATL, returning that night. Did that many times, with many people,through the years. Took longer trips on the Georgian as an adult, of course, but those childhood memories will never fade.

On the subject of suburban stations iin ATl, not only the old Peachrtree Station(now used by Amtrak) but also Seaboard had a suburban stop at Emory University. Not sure if there were more. Depends on how you define "suburb". When I was a child places like Stone Mountain and Marietta were considered separate cities, today they are all part of ATL.

ATl was lucky as the last trains operating, the Southern Crescent,etc used both the suburban station and one of the two big downtowns: Terminal Station. Easy enough to (unfortunately) tear down the big station and just leave the suburban staiton let it redefine itself as the "main (only) station".


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## boratwanksta (May 3, 2006)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Mr. Harris, you can appreciate this: a big part of my childhood was the enjoyment of mother and me boarding the Georgian in CHA spending the day in ATL, returning that night. Did that many times, with many people,through the years. Took longer trips on the Georgian as an adult, of course, but those childhood memories will never fade.
> On the subject of suburban stations iin ATl, not only the old Peachrtree Station(now used by Amtrak) but also Seaboard had a suburban stop at Emory University. Not sure if there were more. Depends on how you define "suburb". When I was a child places like Stone Mountain and Marietta were considered separate cities, today they are all part of ATL.
> 
> ATl was lucky as the last trains operating, the Southern Crescent,etc used both the suburban station and one of the two big downtowns: Terminal Station. Easy enough to (unfortunately) tear down the big station and just leave the suburban staiton let it redefine itself as the "main (only) station".


it'd be so awesome if a train like the Georgian ran today, as i see a HUGE need for direct north-south service from Chicago, and/or from possibly St. Louis to the southeast. as it is, it takes 3 days to take either the Cardinal or Capital Limited east, and switching to the Crescent, rather than the 1 day it took to ride the Georgian to Atlanta. maybe it'll happen eventually(or a possible restoration of the Floridian train, if enough track upgrades are done), if a large-enough grassroots lobbying effort to Amtrak got off the ground(with a possible NARP backing effort).


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## George Harris (May 8, 2006)

For the Georgian you also have to get past CSX. You also have to understand that the old NC&St.L is not near as fast as it used to be. A few years ago I worked out the minimum run time from an operating timetable based on all the speed limits (70 mnph maximum which was higher than it was in passenger days), and came up with something over 8 hours Nashville to Atlanta. Remember, the line is very crooked and the superelevation has been reduced in most of the curves, dropping the speed you can run on them. Also, teh Georgian's schedule had almost no fat at all in it, so in the current reality of having to follow frieghts at times and visitning sidings, there is no hope of a schedule anywhere near what the Georgian had without major work to add second track and straighten curves.

George


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 8, 2006)

George Harris said:


> For the Georgian you also have to get past CSX.  You also have to understand that the old NC&St.L is not near as fast as it used to be.  A few years ago I worked out the minimum run time from an operating timetable based on all the speed limits (70 mnph maximum which was higher than it was in passenger days), and came up with something over 8 hours Nashville to Atlanta.  Remember, the line is very crooked and the superelevation has been reduced in most of the curves, dropping the speed you can run on them.  Also, teh Georgian's schedule had almost no fat at all in it, so in the current reality of having to follow frieghts at times and visitning sidings, there is no hope of a schedule anywhere near what the Georgian had without major work to add second track and straighten curves.
> George




Just in case anyone is interested I am gong to try to quote the Georgian's schedule from memory. My computer is at work--my timetables are at home. This would be the schedule from the early 50's until about 1957.

Things changed around 1957-58 and the Georgian became increasing slower (and more often late) when it began combining with another train, the Humming Bird, further north. This made for a long train, making double stops at some stations,etc.

Maybe track deteriation and freight congestion set it about then, also, not sure, just know the schedule got slower and slower.

Anyway, before all that began it was like this:

lv.CHI 4p.m (CST).

ar Evansville 9.20, lv 9.40p.m.

ar NASH 12.55 a.m.-lv 1.20 a.m.(CST)

ar Chattanooga 5.25 a.m.(EST) lv. 5.30

at ar. ATl 8.35.am. EST

There was a through sleeper and coach from St. Louis which left STL about 4.30, I think. They were attached at Evansville southbound and removed at Nashville northbound.

Northbound schedule was similar speeds, lv. ATL 6 pm (EST).. ar CHI about 8.25a.,m.(CST) as I recall.

There was another streamliner on that route which went all the way to Miami. It was known first as the Dixie Flagler, then re-equipped in 1954 and renamed the Dixieland. It was just as fast, operated different time of day. Southbound left CHI about 9..m. ar ATL about 1:20a.m. onto Miami about 5:20 the next afternoon. Sadly---very sadly for me personally--it was discontinued in 1957.

There wre other trains but these were the "stars" and they basically went CHI to ATL about 15.5 hours. Wish we could still do that.

The Georgian was heavily advertised as a business person's train. Leave downtown ATl after work, board the train from the office, eat dinner, sleep, breakfast, conduct business in CHI or STL(or reverse). Sleep whileyou travel.

Many trains all over the country were like that. The Dixie Flagler/Dixieland schedule, one will note, was more geared to Florida vacationers.

:


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## George Harris (May 9, 2006)

bill, sounds about right. By the early 60's the combined Humming Bird / Georgian was leaving Chicago about 3:30 pm, and arriving Atlanta about 9:30 am. Northbound was about 5:00 pm out of Atlanta, arriving Chicago about 9:00 am. The C&EI was allowed to discontinue their portion from Chicago to Evansville in late 1967, if I recall correctly, which virtually destroyed both the Bird and the Georgian. I worked for the L&N in 1968 and 1969, and recall the ticket agent in Birmingham commenting that the loss of the through train cut the L&N's passenger business out of Birmingham virtually in half. Everyone was surprised that the ICC allowed the train to be cut when they did. Many trains carrying far fewer passengers were forced to continue operating.

The Dixie Flagler was for those that don't remember it one of three similarly scheduled Chicago to Florida Trains that ran every third day, thereby providing daily service. It was tirst to go, with the ICRR's City of Miami lasting all the way to Amtrak and the Pennsy/L&N's South Wind sort of making it, becuase it became a coaches only connection north of Louisville in its last couple of years. Amazingly, the Dixie Flagler route is the only one for which the main line tracks on which it ran are all still in place. They are if anything busier now than ever before.

George


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 11, 2006)

George Harris said:


> bill, sounds about right.  By the early 60's the combined Humming Bird / Georgian was leaving Chicago about 3:30 pm, and arriving Atlanta about 9:30 am.  Northbound was about 5:00 pm out of Atlanta, arriving Chicago about 9:00 am.  The C&EI was allowed to discontinue their portion from Chicago to Evansville in late 1967, if I recall correctly, which virtually destroyed both the Bird and the Georgian.  I worked for the L&N in 1968 and 1969, and recall the ticket agent in Birmingham commenting that the loss of the through train cut the L&N's passenger business out of Birmingham virtually in half.  Everyone was surprised that the ICC allowed the train to be cut when they did.  Many trains carrying far fewer passengers were forced to continue operating.
> The Dixie Flagler was for those that don't remember it one of three similarly scheduled Chicago to Florida Trains that ran every third day, thereby providing daily service.  It was tirst to go, with the ICRR's City of Miami lasting all the way to Amtrak and the Pennsy/L&N's South Wind sort of making it, becuase it became a coaches only connection north of Louisville in its last couple of years.  Amazingly, the Dixie Flagler route is the only one for which the main line tracks on which it ran are all still in place.  They are if anything busier now than ever before.
> 
> George




Interesting that you worked in BHM for the L&N. I do realize the former L&N station is the present day Amtrak station(well, chopped down a bit!).

I also realize that today's Crescent,which is more more like yesterday's pre-AmtrakSoutherner, used the other station (the Terminal Station: home for several roads) when it was a Southern RR train. Not the one it uses today.

Guess the station still felt kinda sorta new when you worked there? I know it was new about mid-50's (or later?) close to the same time NOL new Union Station was built.

Hard to believe that dropping the CHI-STL section of the Humming Bird cut BHM's business in half. As you say, there were many other trains.....

Obviously the C&EI did the dirty work on the Georgian/Humming Bird. But I also have heard that they were the party that instigated the discontinuance of the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) in Nov. 1957.,

Too bad, they had been such a neat, spunky little railroad, with several neat trains.


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## MrFSS (May 11, 2006)

> Obviously the C&EI did the dirty work on the Georgian/Humming Bird. But I also have heard that they were the party that instigated the discontinuance of the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) in Nov. 1957.


Bill - is the Flagler in the name Dixie Flagler, the Mr Flagler who created the Florida East Coast RR and opened up southern Florida for travel?


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 11, 2006)

MrFSS said:


> > Obviously the C&EI did the dirty work on the Georgian/Humming Bird. But I also have heard that they were the party that instigated the discontinuance of the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) in Nov. 1957.
> 
> 
> Bill - is the Flagler in the name Dixie Flagler, the Mr Flagler who created the Florida East Coast RR and opened up southern Florida for travel?




Yep-one and the same.

In fact when the train was first put in service in 1939 it was called the Henry M. Flagler and just ran from Jacksonville to Miami.

A year later it was extended to Chicago , began operating every third day in conjunction with the South Wind and City of Miami. Each train every third day, rotating off each other.

It was then re-named "Dixie" Flagler, probably because there were a number of other "Dixie" trains(i.e. D Flyer, D. Limited, D. Express, etc) out of Chicago on the C&EI to Florida.

In Dec. 1954 it was re-equipped and re-named Dixieland and lasted until Nov. 1957.

Highlight of its career was in 1947 when a squalling spoiled rotten 3 year old brat named Bill(y) Haithcoat was taken on it from Chattanooga to Daytona Beach and back and became hooked on trains forever.


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## jphjaxfl (May 12, 2006)

I rode the Georgian a number of times between 1952 and 1971 when it was discontined. My first trip in the upper birth of a Pullman Section was in 1952 from Chattanooga to St. Louis as a 4 year old with my Dad. I remember walking down the platform to our car at the Chatt Union Station and the Georgian was a very long train. When I last road the Georgian in Feb, 1971 from Nashville to Atlanta, it was down to 1 coach that a snack bar had been added to as mandated by the ICC. At Nashville, we were told by the L&N agent that the train would be an hour late. Some of the passengers decided to go get something to eat, but the train was only 20 minutes late. The train didn't wait for the 4 passengers who had already bought tickets but had left the station thinking the train would be a hour late. The snack bar attendant had been imbibing on spirits during the trip from St. Louis. When passengers wanted some breakfast items, the snack bar was out of everything. This was typical of many trains in the year preceding Amtrak. I also rode the Dixie Flyer from Evansville to Wartrace, TN in the 196Os and Local 3&4 from Nashville and other stops to Atlanta prior to is discontinuance in 1968 and another daytime local from Nashville to Evansville. The secondary L&N trains of the 1960s were much better than the poor Georgian of 1971.


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## Guest_JAChooChoo (May 16, 2006)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> [quoteIn fact when the train was first put in service in 1939 it was called the Henry M. Flagler and just ran from Jacksonville to Miami.
> 
> A year later it was extended to Chicago , began operating every third day in conjunction with the South Wind and City of Miami. Each train every third day, rotating off each other.


.Just a side note, the trainset was one of four identical 7 car Budd-built coach streamliners.

Two went to the ACL as the original New York-Miami _Champions_.

The other two went to the FEC, one as the third _Champion_ the other as the _Henry M. Flagler_[/i]


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## MrFSS (May 16, 2006)

> Henry M. Flagler


I had a very nice meal one night at the Flagler Mansion, now museum, in Palm Beach, Florida. Those folks knew how to live and wine and dine in those early days. Quite a bit of FEC stuff in the place. Don't know if it is open to the public, we were with a private group, but it might be a good place to visit if in the area.


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 16, 2006)

Thanks for sharing that. I have often wandered about the place.

Was there anything----anything at all---which made reference to the train iin 1939 which would be named for him?

Doesn't seem to be, from what I can tell from the websites.


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## MrFSS (May 16, 2006)

> Thanks for sharing that. I have often wandered about the place.
> Was there anything----anything at all---which made reference to the train iin 1939 which would be named for him?
> 
> Doesn't seem to be, from what I can tell from the websites.


Bill - wish I could help, more. It was over ten years ago I was there. A business meeting (Sales Reward Trip, we stayed at the Breakers for 5 days) and over 100 of us there. A fast tour and meal. Don't remember much more. I may have some pictures someplace. I'll try to find them.

Tom


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