# Rhode Island Commuter Rail



## USrail21 (Nov 8, 2011)

Does a commuter rail in Rhode Island sound like a good idea? To me, yes. The line will go from Providence to Westerly on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Stations are Providence, Providence Airport, Wickford Junction, Kingston, Kenyon, Wood River Junction, Bradford, then Westerly. Trains will use an AEM-7 locomotive and will have 6 cars with a locomotive at each end. Maximum speed is 78 MPH. End to end will take around an hour and twenty minutes.


----------



## Ryan (Nov 8, 2011)

That much power and you're only going to run 78?

Stop posting.


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Nov 8, 2011)

USrail21 said:


> Does a commuter rail in Rhode Island sound like a good idea? To me, yes. The line will go from Providence to Westerly on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Stations are Providence, Providence Airport, Wickford Junction, Kingston, Kenyon, Wood River Junction, Bradford, then Westerly. Trains will use an AEM-7 locomotive and will have 6 cars with a locomotive at each end. Maximum speed is 78 MPH. End to end will take around an hour and twenty minutes.


Actually, I think you should use a GG1. I've always wanted to see those running again. And since they're just as likely to make new GG1s as they are to make new AEM-7s, we might as well go with the more antiquated technology.

Also, I think the trains should stop at Boston Back Bay, but not Boston South, because it's only 1-mile from Back Bay, and people won't mind walking.


----------



## Ryan (Nov 8, 2011)

Boston isn't in Rhode Island, dummy. 

And my vote is for E60's, they looked sweet.


----------



## MattW (Nov 8, 2011)

MBTA's Providence/Stoughton line already provides quite a bit of service to the Providence airport, and improvements are underway to extend the line to Wickford Junction which should be open in 2012. Rhode Island is also funding an extension to this (which would probably be its own service called South County Commuter Rail) as far as Westerly which could connect to an extension of Connecticut's Shore line East commuter rail from New London which would provide continuous public transit from northern Massachusetts as far as Newark, Delaware, and if Maryland extends MARC up to Newark, you'll have non-Amtrak transit as far as Fredericksburg, VA.

Also, the existing MBTA equipment can already do 100mph I think with single diesels. This is also the segment of the Northeast Corridor that lets the Acela reach 150mph so excessively slower commuter trains would just slow it and the 125mph Regionals down more than they already do. Also, AEM-7s are no longer produced, you'd need with something based off of NJT's ALP-46a, or the new Amtrak locomotive, ACS-64 unless you want to buy used ALP-44s from NJT or used AEM-7s from Amtrak once they start retiring them.


----------



## USrail21 (Nov 8, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Stop posting.


What, and see Amtrak just keep on doing the same old? Don't you want to see more trains? What kind of rail fan are you?


----------



## AlanB (Nov 8, 2011)

USrail21 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Stop posting.
> ...


And yet you yourself want to keep using old technology in the form of an AEM-7.


----------



## stntylr (Nov 8, 2011)

Let's look to the future and have RI invest in a RI only HSR line. It certainly would be less expensive than California's.


----------



## George Harris (Nov 9, 2011)

stntylr said:


> Let's look to the future and have RI invest in a RI only HSR line. It certainly would be less expensive than California's.


For sure. After all, the size of Rhode Island is such that they do not need any 3 digit mile markers on their highway system.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Nov 9, 2011)

There are a few planned lines and alot of infill stations for Rhode Island ,just no $$$ for it. The Commuter Rail lines would connect and serve the following large towns and cities.... Theres no $$$ to build these lines in one shot even though there small and cheap compared to neighboring states. My Friend estimates all the plans below to cost between 7 to 12 Billion $$$.

Newport

Middletown

Tiverton

Central Falls

East Greenwich

Kingston

Quonset

Woonsocket

Pawtucket

Cranston

Warwick

Light Rail would service these cities / towns

Providence

Pawtucket

East Providence

West Warwick

Cranston

Riverside

Warren

Streetcars would service these cities

Providence

East Providence

Cranston

North Providence


----------



## jis (Nov 9, 2011)

Tracktwentynine said:


> USrail21 said:
> 
> 
> > Does a commuter rail in Rhode Island sound like a good idea? To me, yes. The line will go from Providence to Westerly on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Stations are Providence, Providence Airport, Wickford Junction, Kingston, Kenyon, Wood River Junction, Bradford, then Westerly. Trains will use an AEM-7 locomotive and will have 6 cars with a locomotive at each end. Maximum speed is 78 MPH. End to end will take around an hour and twenty minutes.
> ...


Are you kidding? I would like to see K-4s used. That would be so cool


----------



## the_traveler (Nov 9, 2011)

All I want is a rail line from my house to KIN, so I don't have to drive those 4 miles! I sometimes have to carry lunch with me for that trip!


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Nov 10, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> All I want is a rail line from my house to KIN, so I don't have to drive those 4 miles! I sometimes have to carry lunch with me for that trip!


You drive it? What happened to your limo? :unsure:


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Nov 10, 2011)

I want a commuter line powered by Big Boys! Alco could open shops in Rhode Island to build them!

I mean, since talk is cheap and we can present any wild thing that enters our minds like it is the best thing since sliced bread, why not? Practical? Realistic? Financially viable? Who cares!?! :giggle:


----------



## Trogdor (Nov 10, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I want a commuter line powered by Big Boys!


I haven't been to one of those restaurants in years!


----------



## amamba (Nov 11, 2011)

They are talking about adding streetcar service into Providence. I think that would be nice because currently the city is only served by RIPTA buses and then they have this weird "trolley" route. Except the trolley is a bus that looks like a trolley.

In regards to a commuter rail, they are making a station in wickford and I believe that the idea is to have the Providence line of the MBTA extend south to Wickford and just extend the route that now currently runs from Boston South Station to Providence and then continues on to TF Green airport.

In regards to public transit into the city center, sadly downtown Providence isn't that vibrant in terms of employers/businesses. I am not sure how many people would utilize a commuter rail into Providence from South County. But then again a native Rhode Islander thinks traveling from someplace like Newport to Providence is a very long trip - its all the way across the bay! :help: Back me up on this one Dave


----------



## Shanghai (Nov 13, 2011)

*Should there be light rail on Bellevue Ave in Newport?*


----------



## USrail21 (Nov 13, 2011)

AlanB said:


> USrail21 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


The AEM-7 is not old. It can operate at 125 MPH. That is the third fastest type of Amtrak locomotive, behind Acela locomotives and HHP-8s. It is also electric.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Nov 13, 2011)

Shanghai said:


> *Should there be light rail on Bellevue Ave in Newport?*


Newport is too small for LRT , maybe a streetcar to tie into the Future Commuter Rail...


----------



## the_traveler (Nov 14, 2011)

Newport already has "trolley" service - those buses that look like a trolley!





And I will back up amamba on the RI thinking. When i was an IRS auditor, people from Little Compton didn't want to drive to Providence - *all 25 miles* - because it is such a long trip!



Either that or they had to stay overnight!





BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!! MBTA service serving TF Green (Providence airport) to Boston South Station begins today (11/14)!


----------



## USrail21 (Nov 14, 2011)

MattW said:


> MBTA's Providence/Stoughton line already provides quite a bit of service to the Providence airport, and improvements are underway to extend the line to Wickford Junction which should be open in 2012. Rhode Island is also funding an extension to this (which would probably be its own service called South County Commuter Rail) as far as Westerly which could connect to an extension of Connecticut's Shore line East commuter rail from New London which would provide continuous public transit from northern Massachusetts as far as Newark, Delaware, and if Maryland extends MARC up to Newark, you'll have non-Amtrak transit as far as Fredericksburg, VA.
> 
> Also, the existing MBTA equipment can already do 100mph I think with single diesels. This is also the segment of the Northeast Corridor that lets the Acela reach 150mph so excessively slower commuter trains would just slow it and the 125mph Regionals down more than they already do. Also, AEM-7s are no longer produced, you'd need with something based off of NJT's ALP-46a, or the new Amtrak locomotive, ACS-64 unless you want to buy used ALP-44s from NJT or used AEM-7s from Amtrak once they start retiring them.


A better extension of MARC is to Wilmington and shorten Newark-bound SEPTA trains to that station. MARC will stop at Churchman's Crossing between Newark and Wilmington.


----------



## AlanB (Nov 14, 2011)

USrail21 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > USrail21 said:
> ...


The AEM-7's were built between 1979 & 1988. That makes them as young as 23 years old and as old as 32 years old. Thirty years for a locomotive is getting old, especially for ones that have been run into the ground like the AEM-7's. They haven't been given tender loving care, like say the old steam locomotives that still pull excursion trains today in the US.

This is why Amtrak already has under construction the replacements for the AEM-7's. They'll begin arriving in 2013, perhaps 1 will even show up for testing late next year.


----------



## AlanB (Nov 14, 2011)

USrail21 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > MBTA's Providence/Stoughton line already provides quite a bit of service to the Providence airport, and improvements are underway to extend the line to Wickford Junction which should be open in 2012. Rhode Island is also funding an extension to this (which would probably be its own service called South County Commuter Rail) as far as Westerly which could connect to an extension of Connecticut's Shore line East commuter rail from New London which would provide continuous public transit from northern Massachusetts as far as Newark, Delaware, and if Maryland extends MARC up to Newark, you'll have non-Amtrak transit as far as Fredericksburg, VA.
> ...


What a silly idea, make all those commuters from Philly to Newark changes trains now in Wilmington. Railfans are supposed to be advocating for things to make the trains better; not worse! Making people change trains when it isn't necessary makes things worse.


----------



## MattW (Nov 14, 2011)

Newark to Baltimore and D.C. is already approaching the upper limit between commuter rail and regional rail (which I guess you could argue it is, just with mostly commuter-oriented service) whereas Newark to Philly is well within traditional commuting radius.


----------



## jis (Nov 15, 2011)

It is more likely that DelDOT will extend its contract service with SEPTA to Perryville than MARC extending its service to Newark DE. Newark is an absolute godawful place to try to turn trains of two different systems. Perryville has room to do so.


----------



## Anderson (Nov 16, 2011)

I hate to ask this, and I know there are a pile of problems with it, but is there some way that the NEC commuter operations, at least on each side of Philly, could be consolidated at some point? NYC, Philly, and DC all make for _very_ logical splits in commuter services, and arguably Baltimore could do so as well (though I can't speak to the capability of Baltimore Penn Station or any other facility to handle this sort of a split). But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.

Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.


----------



## jis (Nov 16, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.


Surely you mean Penn Central, since at the creation of Conrail all passenger service was transferred to state agencies, and NEC was transferred to Amtrak, all as a result of the 3R Act. So Conrail never ran any commuter service. [As pointed out by Anderson the preceding sentence is incorrect. Conrail ran commuter service between the 3R and the 4R acts. I stand corrected - jis] The PC [and Conrail and even post Conrail for a few years] operations of course, from a railfan perspective, was the closest thing to heaven I suppose. Lots of variety, lots of regular failures and on and on. And besides there were GG-1 humming along all over the corridor and NJCL too.  And they were pulling those Jersey Builder - ex Empire builder cars around too!

Those laments mostly come from those that did not have the incredible pleasure and honor of experiencing PC service. pre-PC yes, some of them were pretty good.

Besides, by the time PC was operating commuter service, they were already partly funded by the States involved, and of course at the south end of NEC there was much less local service, and MARC and VRE were still years away. The idea of creating something called Amtrak Commuter was mooted and not followed through.


----------



## amamba (Nov 17, 2011)

Anderson said:


> But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.


But from a commuting perspective the system is logical. If you are commuting into Philly, you take Septa (or Patco). If you are commuting to NYC, you take NJT (at least in NJ). South jersey is full of bedroom communities and people that work in Philly and they need to get to work somehow! Trenton is almost a line that somewhat demarcates the state and for which city the NJ residents feel more connected with.

I grew up in south jersey and I can't tell you how much it annoys me when I tell people I am from NJ and they just assume I grew up right outside of NYC.


----------



## the_traveler (Nov 17, 2011)

jis said:


> And besides there were GG-1 humming along all over the corridor


I never heard Eric humming!


----------



## Anderson (Nov 18, 2011)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.
> ...


My understanding is that Conrail kept the PC's commuter operations for 7 years (1976-1983) before dumping them to the states (at which point things basically went to hell...at least per my understanding of SEPTA in particular). Amtrak got control of the Corridor in the late 1970s, but I'm pretty sure Conrail was still handling a lot of commuter operations until the 1980s.

By the way, what do you mean by "railfan heaven" involving "lots of regular failures"? Are you referring to forced equipment swaps making for fun photos, or something else?


----------



## jis (Nov 18, 2011)

Anderson said:


> My understanding is that Conrail kept the PC's commuter operations for 7 years (1976-1983) before dumping them to the states (at which point things basically went to hell...at least per my understanding of SEPTA in particular). Amtrak got control of the Corridor in the late 1970s, but I'm pretty sure Conrail was still handling a lot of commuter operations until the 1980s.


You're right of course. My bad. But I don't think people who used the system saw much of a difference. It was the same disaster tat continued, since the obvious necessary trimming of the system was not carried out in the Conrail era either.

In the early 80's in the waning days of Conrail passenger service I rode the NJCL so called Jersey Builder consist on a Bay Head - New York train complete with the tradition power swap at South Amboy. It was adequate, and from a railfan perspective interesting, but in terms of reliability and basic comforts equipment that came later was much better and tended to be more predictable. So at least in the parts where I rode trains back then, I cannot agree that anything went to hell after Conrail. Actually the rebuilding of a viable and sustainable commuter service infrastructure, at least in NJ did not begin until NJT took over.

Actually post Conrail and PC when the state agencies took over and significant funding came by to replace equipment and fixed assets service improved markedly. The transition period was dicey.



> By the way, what do you mean by "railfan heaven" involving "lots of regular failures"? Are you referring to forced equipment swaps making for fun photos, or something else?


Yes. It was fun for the railfans. Not so much for the users who had to live with ill maintained rolling stock, non-working AC etc. etc. 70's are a more or less forgettable era when quality of service is considered. All that can be said is "we had a commuter service in the NY area tat sort of worked". One thing is true though that considerable amount of marginal service which carried as few as a dozen passenger at times continued through that era, and were promptly chopped off when the real cost vs. benefit was considered upon takeover by the state. Victims of those cuts were the West Trenton and Phillipsburg service in NJ.

But then again it is also true that Conrail itself did not do much real consolidation before the early 80s. It started doing route reduction in right earnest after the 4R act and finally became profitable. In the 70s Conrail continued to bleed money. It was only after L Stanley Crane took over Conrail that the necessary painful steps were taken to get it to profitability.


----------



## jis (Nov 18, 2011)

amamba said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.
> ...


One more thing that people seem not to realize is that the traffic pattern is such that it would be a phenomenal waste to run every 10 and 12 car New York to Trenton train, which pretty much empty out by the time they pass Hamilton, all the way to Philly on an hourly basis all through the day. There is way less traffic between Trenton and Philly than there is between Trenton and New York. It would make sense for PA and NJ to come to an agreement to run the equivalent of the erstwhile Clockers during rush hours, but during off peak it just does not work too well.

If this were Europe, they'd simply unhitch the fist two cars of a ten car train at Trenton and run them through to Philly. But such modern operating practices are well beyond the capability of NJT and SEPTA unfortunately.


----------



## Shawn Ryu (Nov 19, 2011)

I dont see what is wrong with NJ Transit terminating at Trenton and allowing people to then transfer to SEPTA and travel all the way down to Philadelphia.

There are still pretty good numbers of people commuting from Trenton to NYC and vice versa.


----------

