# Future Atlanta Service



## John Bobinyec (Jul 30, 2015)

I was looking for a decent way to go from Raleigh to Atlanta by train. There isn't one. So I thought about extending the Carolinian down to Atlanta - but that is much too long for a daylight trip. Then I thought about running a train just from Washington to Atlanta. That's doable and avoids all of the future infrastructure problems of the NEC. It would be a trip of 737 miles and would need the cooperation of VA - NC - SC - GA. It would also require some track upgrades such as what to do with the train when it gets to Atlanta. Attached is a possible schedule.

If only.







The name is just something I came up with. I don't know if there is a better name, referring to a prior train having existed.

jb


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## StriderGDM (Jul 30, 2015)

I've been suggesting almost the exact idea for years. I think Atlanta would be well served by a day train that operated on essentially the reverse schedule of the existing Crescent.

You've already got the station personal there working. And the length is just right that it could be doable in a long day as you suggest.

There's more than once that I would have taken this instead of the Crescent had it been available.


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

You'd have to get Amtrak to fund this as an LD train. Should this take priority over things like Sunset East or the likes of Pioneer and Desert Wind?


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 30, 2015)

jis said:


> You'd have to get Amtrak to fund this as an LD train. Should this take priority over things like Sunset East or the likes of Pioneer and Desert Wind?


Why? I was thinking more that it would be a joint VA - NC - SC - GA supported train that would be contracted out to Amtrak to run. The cutoff is 750 miles, no? This is 737 miles.

jb


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

Oh right. It is from Washington. My bad. I suppose you are starting to work on the Georgia legislature to jiggle loose a few pennies then?  Not to mention SC either.


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## west point (Jul 30, 2015)

This would also add another mid route train for the CLT - Raleigh piedmonts. Only problem is congress would drop the 750 mile requirement to 700 miles then could be a full Amtrak LD train. Maybe originate train in PHL to make mileage requirement


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

His proposed train originated in Washington DC. How is moving its origin to Philly going to shorten its run?


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 30, 2015)

west point said:


> This would also add another mid route train for the CLT - Raleigh piedmonts. Only problem is congress would drop the 750 mile requirement to 700 miles then could be a full Amtrak LD train. Maybe originate train in PHL to make mileage requirement


The trouble with making the distance longer is that it takes more time. Without significant track improvements which would shorten the trip by at least a couple of hours, the trip would take too much time. Philadelphia is not as desirable destination as Washington is. I would envision that there would be a pretty good crowd of folks who would ride the whole distance from Atlanta to Washington - but that's it. I wouldn't expect the four states to be interested in picking up the tab for operations north of D.C., nor would I expect Amtrak to either.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if someone could project some ridership numbers for a train like this.

jb


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## haolerider (Jul 30, 2015)

The GA legislature is short on interest for trains requiring funding. Also, ATL does not have any mechanical crew and I recall in the distant past that estimates to cut a car or two from the southbound Crescent would cost a tonof money. Mechanical crew, plqce to,turn and service the train, housing of crew overnight, etc. it is basically a great idea, but the financials just don't work out at this time.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 30, 2015)

I love both the route and the name--we can always dream!


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

One thing that caught my attention and am left wondering, as to why the proposed schedule allocated over 4 hours from Charlotte to Raleigh when Piedmonts are scheduled for 3 hours and 11 mins? Is that an error perhaps and the Raleigh arrival was meant to be at 0344pm and not 0444pm?


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## Alex M. (Jul 30, 2015)

Keep in mind that the proposed southeast HSR plans include rebuilding the former SAL between Petersburg and Raleigh. This should cut some time from this schedule. Regarding the train's name, I would like it to be called the Peach Queen, an old SOU Rwy. name.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 30, 2015)

jis said:


> One thing that caught my attention and am left wondering, as to why the proposed schedule allocated over 4 hours from Charlotte to Raleigh when Piedmonts are scheduled for 3 hours and 11 mins? Is that an error perhaps and the Raleigh arrival was meant to be at 0344pm and not 0444pm?


It looked wrong to me too. I was getting a little bleary-eyed though. Here's a revision.

jb


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## RampWidget (Jul 30, 2015)

haolerider said:


> The GA legislature is short on interest for trains requiring funding. Also, ATL does not have any mechanical crew and I recall in the distant past that estimates to cut a car or two from the southbound Crescent would cost a tonof money. Mechanical crew, plqce to,turn and service the train, housing of crew overnight, etc. it is basically a great idea, but the financials just don't work out at this time.


Very salient points. In the past when 19/20 operated with shorter trains ATL-NOL, Amtrak contracted with NS for switching as well as Mechanical services. The cars were staged at the old Armour Yard a few miles north of Peachtree Station.

As far as the Georgia General Assembly is concerned, you are also correct about a reluctance to fund anything that isn't spelled r-o-a-d. However, a transportation project that could be pitched to the General Assembly as a benefit to the State and to the rural counties the route would serve might stand a better chance than most transportation-related projects that get torpedoed because of their perceived benefit to metro Atlanta only.


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## Anderson (Jul 30, 2015)

Alright, I gave this another round of thought and here's where I am with this train:
(1) The train should almost definitely go to New York. Doesn't matter if it arrives at 0200 or 0400, you run the train through to NYP. Why? Well, you might not get much business to NYP (though you might be surprised), but BAL, WIL, and PHL are reasonable traffic generators. Moreover, this offers a choice that arrives at a time other than the Carolinian for a number of intermediate destinations (e.g. RGH-PHL, RGH-NYP). It could also use 66/67 as a transfer train and/or to run cars through to Boston if you wanted to.
(2) With that in mind, SEHSR should knock enough time off the schedule to get that NYP arrival back towards 0000/0100. That may not be great, but an 0100 arrival into NYP corresponds to 2330 in PHL and a pre-2200 arrival into WAS...both of which are potential traffic generators.
(3) On funding, I very strongly suspect that operations post-SEHSR would be deep in the black, largely on the basis of being able to supplement CLT-WAS-NYP business with a not-insignificant amount of traffic originating from Atlanta. The main challenge would be working to ensure passable OTP.


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

As a modest additional requirement, I think it should be easy to jiggle the schedule a bit to have it make a reasonable connection with 66/67 at WAS.

Extending it to New York immediately adds the need for additional consists. The train as specified by John can be operated with two consists with extremely good utilization. Extending to NY adds a third consist which basically sits in NYP for 24 hours (or perhaps can be paired with something that departs midday or later - like the Pennsy is paired with the Palmetto, that mostly to account for covering very late Palmetto arrival.

In general, I don't think the general idea that all south of Washington trains must originate in New York is sustainable as an operational proposition.


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## Palmetto (Jul 30, 2015)

More service is always a good idea, but I don't think there's a place to have the equipment lay over in Atlanta, is there?


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

As haolerider pointed out above....



haolerider said:


> ATL does not have any mechanical crew and I recall in the distant past that estimates to cut a car or two from the southbound Crescent would cost a tonof money. Mechanical crew, plqce to,turn and service the train, housing of crew overnight, etc. it is basically a great idea, but the financials just don't work out at this time.


.... in addition to the issue of finding tracks space for storage and provisioning.


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## Anderson (Jul 30, 2015)

jis said:


> As a modest additional requirement, I think it should be easy to jiggle the schedule a bit to have it make a reasonable connection with 66/67 at WAS.
> 
> Extending it to New York immediately adds the need for additional consists. The train as specified by John can be operated with two consists with extremely good utilization. Extending to NY adds a third consist which basically sits in NYP for 24 hours (or perhaps can be paired with something that departs midday or later - like the Pennsy is paired with the Palmetto, that mostly to account for covering very late Palmetto arrival.
> 
> In general, I don't think the general idea that all south of Washington trains must originate in New York is sustainable as an operational proposition.


Yeah, I can (mostly) agree there. One part of this was the lack of a functional same day/same night connection on the NEC was staring at me through the timetable with angry eyes; the other was, as wacky as it may sound, some documents I saw a long time ago which suggested that there might be a departure as late as noon from CLT, terminating in NYP, as part of SEHSR (remember, SEHSR proposes no less than four departures from CLT that go to NYP and which you'd expect _some_ schedule spacing on).


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## jis (Jul 30, 2015)

Completion of SEHSR and VA ever actually meeting their goals for the WAS - RVR times changes the ball game considerably.


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## SanAntonioClyde (Jul 30, 2015)

Why not extend it to Shreveport and Dallas a route some in south are pushing, but they probably would not like the overnight schedule


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## Anderson (Jul 30, 2015)

The objective was to keep this as a day train _a la_ the Piedmont Limited that Southern ran into the 70s.


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## xyzzy (Jul 30, 2015)

Exactly, this schedule is practically the same as Southern's 5&6, the Piedmont, that ran Washington-Atlanta until 1975 and Washington-Charlotte for a year longer.

It's a nice idea but I just don't see it happening in the current climate. Among other things, NS won't be receptive to more blockage of their main line at MP 633 by additional passenger trains sitting in the station. Meanwhile Amtrak, the City of Atlanta, and GDOT appear to be absolutely incapable of getting a new station project underway.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 30, 2015)

Is there a Georgia passenger train advocacy group?

jb


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 30, 2015)

Altanta Station

Why can't we just run the train(s) to the far side of belt way, and build a station with a maintance facility? Is Altanta too small to have two stations. The new "Western" will have large parking lot, with easy access to the belt way. Turning loop or wye, shed for maintance, and layover track(s).

Problem solved.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 31, 2015)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Altanta Station
> 
> Why can't we just run the train(s) to the far side of belt way, and build a station with a maintance facility? Is Altanta too small to have two stations. The new "Western" will have large parking lot, with easy access to the belt way. Turning loop or wye, shed for maintance, and layover track(s).
> 
> Problem solved.


Excellent idea! Send in your check today, problem solved!


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## afigg (Jul 31, 2015)

xyzzy said:


> It's a nice idea but I just don't see it happening in the current climate. Among other things, NS won't be receptive to more blockage of their main line at MP 633 by additional passenger trains sitting in the station. Meanwhile Amtrak, the City of Atlanta, and GDOT appear to be absolutely incapable of getting a new station project underway.


Yes, the biggest single barrier to adding a second train to Atlanta is the need for a new station with layover tracks, and preferably one that is adjacent or near to a MARTA stop. I saw in recent news that MARTA is getting serious about expansion plans again with an extension of one of its heavy rail lines and a light rail line. So Atlanta will have an expanding rail transit system to connect to in the coming decade or two. Atlanta should have a true intermodal station with Amtrak and intercity/regional bus services that is adjacent or combined with a MARTA station. But, as far I can tell, any such plans are dead in the water for the Atlanta metro region at present.

A viable station in Altanta is not the only obstacle. Would NS consent to a second passenger train between CLT and ATL or would it want tens or hundreds of millions in track upgrades? Would CSX consent to another passenger train from RVR to RGH without funds for track upgrades? The upgrades being funded by HSIPR and VA (for NFK service) will add capacity between WAS and PTB, but between PTB and RGH, CSX may say no.

I don't think a WAS to ATL train proposal will get any traction at the state level in GA until NC and VA show a lot of success with expanded train service in their states and the SEHSR plans get serious funding for the RVM to RGH segment.


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## afigg (Jul 31, 2015)

afigg said:


> Atlanta should have a true intermodal station with Amtrak and intercity/regional bus services that is adjacent or combined with a MARTA station. But, as far I can tell, any such plans are dead in the water for the Atlanta metro region at present.


Interesting, the same day I wrote this, turns out I'm wrong. There are discussions going on the Atlanta metro region about a possible new station site further out in the suburbs, but a site that is adjacent to a MARTA station and close to the Atlanta beltway.

Atlanta Business Chronicle: Amtrak in talks for new station at GM plant site. The site is Doraville, at the northeastern end of MARTA Gold line. but at least, it would have direct connections to MARTA. At least, Amtrak, NS and the state officials are in discussion on a new station; where the funding is going to come from, that is the catch. Excerpts:



> Amtrak has entered discussions with state transit officials and a major railroad to put a new station on the former site of the Doraville General Motors Co. plant.
> 
> MARTA and Norfolk Southern Corp. have held conversations with Amtrak this year about that possibility, people familiar with the talks said.
> 
> ...


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## me_little_me (Jul 31, 2015)

John Bobinyec said:


> Is there a Georgia passenger train advocacy group?
> 
> jb


Yeah but both members are in nursing homes.


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## jis (Aug 1, 2015)

Mauled by the Georgia government?


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 1, 2015)

jis said:


> Completion of SEHSR and VA ever actually meeting their goals for the WAS - RVR times changes the ball game considerably.


Aren't we getting something from the Stimulus funds being spent on the _Piedmont _route Raleigh-Charlotte? It's 20 minutes iirc, but I've seen someone say it's 30 minutes out of the timetable by the end of 2017.

Next would come the WAS-Richmond corridor improvements, another 30 minutes saved within 5 or 10 years.

Then in the doo-wah-diddy we'll get the SEHSR upgrades Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh, taking another hour out at least.

Yeah, two hours faster would change the game considerably.

With this timeframe there'll be plenty of time to acquire more equipment for the new train. LOL.


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## jis (Aug 2, 2015)

As I have said before theory is good. We'll see what actually happens. It is not unusual for theoretical goals not to be met. We are yet to achieve the original NECIP goals after several billion dollars


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## neroden (Aug 18, 2015)

I don't know enough about NS's operations in detail to be able to say this for sure. (And I'd welcome such information.) But I believe that the Atlanta-Charlotte section of track is NOT one of the bottlenecks on NS's system right now. There's still the bottleneck in Charlotte where the CSX tracks cross the NS tracks, but from south of Charlotte to the northern suburbs of Atlanta, I think NS would not be an obstacle to a second train. The lack of an appropriate station in Atlanta is a much bigger obstacle. I hope the "GM Plant" site gets a station, with high platforms and enough space for cutting/adding cars and laying trains over.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't remember seeing this thread back in July/August so I'm happy with the new sub forum.

Assuming SC and GA cooperate (big assumption), the easiest adjustment would be to extend a Piedmont in both directions to ATL for now. It won't get you to WAS or further north but a long all day train will always remind me of the Chicago extension of the Pennsylvanian. It's one thing to spend 18 hrs on a train when you can sleep 6 of them but lose an entire day traveling? Plus if you could sleep, no sleeper car accommodations.

I have proposed extending Train 73 down to ATL and begin Train 76 at ATL. Add 5.5 hrs in each direction between CLT and ATL and you get a southbound arrival on 73 before 4pm and a northbound departure before noon.

This might be able to help the capacity north of ATL vs. capacity south of ATL on the Crescent.

First, most of North Carolina would take the 73/76 to/from ATL instead of the Crescent so that frees up space on the Crescent so a fifth coach car may not be necessary.

Plus, maybe the extra cars from the Crescent can be used on the 73/76 instead of continuing to NOL.

After the southbound 19 gets into ATL (8:13am), take 1-2 coach cars off the Crescent and send them north to North Carolina on the 76 (before noon) while letting the rest go down south.

The northbound 20 will begin with either two or three coach cars. Once the southbound 73 gets to ATL (before 4pm), attach 1-2 coach cars onto the Crescent once it arrives in ATL (7:35pm) so there will be the necessary capacity for northbound to the NEC.


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## neroden (Nov 7, 2015)

The core problem is still that Atlanta needs a new station. Badly.

I hope the Doraville station site gets funded, and built with sufficient platforms and sidings for the proposed expansions. That would unlock a whole lot of possibilities.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 7, 2015)

The problem with Atlanta is the station. Now when they build a new station I hope they keep it in an area with good connections. Let's say the Floridian comes back it doesn't require a back up move via Atlanta. Or a savannah train. But we need a new station.


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## jis (Nov 7, 2015)

Floridian never did run through Atlanta though and there are very significant issues which have nothing to do with the existence of a suitable Atlanta station or lack thereof in trying to run it via Atlanta which have been hashed out at length in the past in this forum.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 7, 2015)

I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 7, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.


What cities do you propose in your Floridian? Maybe we can re-establish service in several cities without service now.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 7, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.
> ...


My version of the Floridian runs Jacksonville-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville

From Nashville north I have two possible routes.

-Nashville-Evansville-Danville-Chicago plus intermediate stops.

-Nashville-Lousiville-Indianapolis-Chicago via HS route. The track from Louisville to Indy would need major work if I remember right. But I think both would work.

I can see a midwest-Florida route being a popular route. Not to mention having Atlanta, Nashville, and Indy on a route you should have some major intermediate traffic. And that would be great. I'll start a separate discussion for this though.


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## neroden (Nov 8, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> My version of the Floridian runs Jacksonville-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville
> 
> From Nashville north I have two possible routes.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Louisville to Indy is a decrepit shortline right now. If the state governments were willing to support it (sigh) it could become a passenger-priority fast route.


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## west point (Nov 12, 2015)

Comments about ATL - NEC service.

1. New station at Doraville is only solution for starting service. Station would need a balloon track for turning equipment quickly much like Richmond Broad street station had. Prefer balloon to be on north side of station so in future Chi - Florida direction trains could turn to retrace to NW - SE routes.

2. Atlanta - Charlotte route takes too long and needs upgrading all track to 80 - 90 MPH capability too many slow sections now ( PTC will be on route ) . Make the ~ 245 miles from new ATL station - new CLT station schedule 4 hours including the intermediate stops.

3. New CLT station - Greensboro should decrease to 90 minutes once double tracking complete.

4. CSX crossing NS in CLT appears to be a moot problem with CSX cutting CLT - Bostic to 4 total trains.

5. Atlanta - Raleigh - Richmond connects 3 state capitals.

6. Washington termination causes problems of rotating equipment so the continuation to NYP appears much better.

7. Late night train between WASH & NYP fills a time gap for traveling between those cities.

8. When Amtrak gets a surge fleet the new Atlanta station will allow for extra sections ATL - WASH that were very prevalent during medium to high traffic times by SOU RR even after Amtrak.started.

9. Of course this is all academic without capital funds for ROW & station upgrades and more rolling stock.


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## neroden (Nov 18, 2015)

Here's hoping for the Doraville station ASAP.

Even if a downtown Atlanta station eventually gets approved and built, there will still be value to having a suburban station (the way Boston has Route 128).

So the Doraville station would be worth it, period.


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## Anderson (Nov 18, 2015)

Depending on the frequencies you're looking at, turning one train somewhere in the mix at WAS isn't necessarily a bad idea (e.g. if the train terminates at WAS at 2300 and then heads back out at 0500, you'd be saving a set). There's plenty of stuff rotating at WAS as-is, and there's likely to be room for more stuff to rotate there later on if VA keeps extending Regionals.

This isn't to say that most trains shouldn't continue onto NYP (and/or SPG/BOS), but there could easily be a serious case for having at least one "deep south" train terminate at WAS...partiularly if there's a second train coming in a bit later on the "other" route (e.g. if you have an ATL-RVR-WAS train and a ROA-CVS-WAS train coming in at similar times later in the day, only one should continue on since there's probably not enough demand for two closely-scheduled late-night trains).


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## jis (Nov 18, 2015)

I think a primery candidate for a Washington terminator would be a day train to Atlanta. It is almost impossible to do such a train all the way to New York without causing serious pain to convenient schedules at the other end of the run.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 18, 2015)

I second Jis on his statement. Atlanta would be the best candidate for the turn at Washington. Based on my observations the line from ROA to LYH really isn't that long of an extension. I think it would really be an hour maybe less. I remember on 611 it didn't take that long when we ran that route. It was I think 90 minutes for us, but that is with us having a cap at 40 mph, which Amtrak wouldn't have. So I see it as maybe a 45 minute run, perfect to add to a Lynchburger. And then my other observation I spend a lot of time meeting Train No. 20 at Clemson, and talk to all of the passengers boarding most are going to points south of Washington. The last time I was there two for New York, two for CVS, one for GRO, and three for WAS. Usually there aren't WAS-NYP destinations. Mostly VA, and NC.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 18, 2015)

I would think an extension of the Piedmont would be much easier and cheaper. I say baby steps, then work from there.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 18, 2015)

Actually Philly there has been floated around a Piedmont extension schedule of 73 and 76 running via Columbia to Charleston SC from Charlotte. Schedule was posted in the Charlotte station for about two years. Then it disappeared. And the line is PTC now as well. If SC would get off their rear end I could see it happening.


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## neroden (Nov 22, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> If SC would get off their rear end I could see it happening.


And if pigs would fly...
I wish you luck with passenger rail advocacy in South Carolina. You'll need it. I honestly can't think of a state with less success at rail advocacy in my lifetime; it doesn't seem to be fertile ground for it. Even Alaska and Hawaii are doing better.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 22, 2015)

Thank you Neroden. I'm pushing for the Palmetto corridor. But it would take a miracle. Actually the real Palmetto Corridor is GRV-CHS with overlapping Piedmont from CLT-CLB-CHS. Maybe one day in the future I'll make a post for it


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 23, 2015)

I would think Atlanta to Florida service would have potential. Seaboard92's Floridian revival plans (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/) include ATL to JAX along I presume the old Floridian route.

I was wondering if there was any way to connect ATL with Tampa possibly through western Florida (Tallahassee and/or Gainesville) and then serve Orlando and/or Miami as opposed to ATL to JAX? Considering both Tallahassee and Gainesville are big college towns and Amtrak has a proven track record with college towns, maybe this is worth a look.


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## jphjaxfl (Nov 23, 2015)

I agree that South Carolina does not have elected officials that will support passenger trains. It's about the same as Georgia. The company I work for in Jacksonville is a subsidiary of a South Carolina based company. The philosophy is the Home Office is that passenger trains belong in historical museums and are not part of the 21 Century.


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## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I would think Atlanta to Florida service would have potential. Seaboard92's Floridian revival plans (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/) include ATL to JAX along I presume the old Floridian route.
> 
> I was wondering if there was any way to connect ATL with Tampa possibly through western Florida (Tallahassee and/or Gainesville) and then serve Orlando and/or Miami as opposed to ATL to JAX? Considering both Tallahassee and Gainesville are big college towns and Amtrak has a proven track record with college towns, maybe this is worth a look.


First of all there are only two rail routes down to the Orlando/Tampa area from the north. One is the JAX - ORL route via SunRail which is used by Amtrak, and the other is JAX to Lakeland and Plant City via Ocala which has been abandoned by Amtrak quite a while back. To get onto this line from Atlanta, you have to get pretty near to JAX on the Tallahassee - JAX line anyway, so no reason to avoidn JAX at that point.

Besides the ship of using the Ocala route for passenger service might have sailed already. As part of the SunRail deal CSX moved all its freights (well almost all) to the Ocala - Gainsville route and will probably resist any proposal for returning passenger trains on that route mightily, or at least insist on laying an additional track or some such. In general getting a train through JAX and then down SunRail would be much easier than trying to arm wrestle with CSX on the Ocala route at this point.


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## neroden (Nov 23, 2015)

jphjaxfl said:


> I agree that South Carolina does not have elected officials that will support passenger trains. It's about the same as Georgia. The company I work for in Jacksonville is a subsidiary of a South Carolina based company. The philosophy is the Home Office is that passenger trains belong in historical museums and are not part of the 21 Century.


This country can be so backwards sometimes.... someone should get them to visit China, the sole economic superpower in the world right now, which disagrees. I kind of understood this attitude before China built *more high speed rail than the entire rest of the world combined*, but now anyone who's paying attention sees that HSR is part of the Economy Of The Future.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 23, 2015)

Totally agree about checking out China's model, but try to convince the yahoos that have taken over most state governments and the Congress, and are now supporting know nothings,charlatans and reality show hucksters for President!

Maybe they still are in Kansas Toto!


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 23, 2015)

Philly the route I proposed for the Floridian isn't the original route. But I am with you there could be a market. And what I see in the future are a bunch if intrastate corridors. With the LDs running along several of them. I think there would be some good ridership especially the NS route if you tap Atlanta, Macon, Jacksonville.


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## west point (Nov 23, 2015)

ATL - Florida 1st does have much merit.

1. 1st ATL - Jacksonville. NS ATL - Macon over either the old SOU RR route or Central of Georgia route. Unfortunately the CG route had its signal system removed sometime in the past although it serves more of the population and goes close to Atlanta airport. That route might be able to be used by going thru the Fort Gilliam yard connection to the SOU route. From Macon can use the NS -SOU route to Jacksonville or change to CSX - ACL line at Cordele. SOU route would serve Valdosta and CSX would serve Waycross. Which is faster ? Unknown ?

2. From JAX take the Star's route serving Tampa then Miami. Would provide ATL - TPA which is now very popular on I-75 and more TPA - South Florida which has a very large following now on just the Star.

3. Way in the future an ideal route will be ATL - Columbus, Georgia ( Ft. Benning ) - Albany - Tallahassee - Tampa - MIA. Right now much of this route has abandoned ROW some ATL - CSG ( NS ) / CSG - Albany CSX - SAL, Non signaled Albany - Tallahassee/ portions Tallahassee - Tampa CSX - ACL ? SAL. /


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## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

Tallahassee to Tampa CSX what remains is via Ocala from Baldwin near JAX. There are no southward links into Florida that goes all the way to Tampa/Orlando west of the SAL/CSX main line through Ocala. Forget about the ACL line west of it from Tallahassee to Tampa. has been gone for a long time. They are not there anymore. The issue then is if you are going to go that close to JAX, might as well serve JAX too.

Florida's long term rail plan even does not talk about that part too much. My guess is that connection with Atlanta if it even happens will be via JAX. Even if anything is ever built it will probably be along some highway ROW.


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## west point (Nov 23, 2015)

JIS. What was referring to is the partially abandoned ACL - SAL Tallahassee - Tampa route. There was some speculation in the past that it was broken up so SOU later NS could not get a disjointed route ATL - TPA thru Tallahassee. Notice said way in future.


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## Alex M. (Nov 24, 2015)

I will agree with the others that SC's view is that rail means freight, period. Ditto GA. I also recall that some time ago, FEC was interested in buying a 30% stake in the NS line from Jacksonville to Macon, or Atlanta from NS the way NS has 30% holding in the KCS line from Meridian to Shreveport. I don't know if this proposal has been shelved, but if it went ahead and AAF's Brightline service succeeds financially, could that service be an option for Atlanta? I know it's a wild dream, but why not dream?


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## jis (Nov 24, 2015)

west point said:


> JIS. What was referring to is the partially abandoned ACL - SAL Tallahassee - Tampa route. There was some speculation in the past that it was broken up so SOU later NS could not get a disjointed route ATL - TPA thru Tallahassee. Notice said way in future.


Yeah, I know what you were talking about. That ROW is not in a preserved state. It has been encroached upon big time in many palces. Some of it is now used for roads too. I would be very surprised if it ever sees another train on it.

For reference see this FDOT 2006 Passenger Rail Vision Plan:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

The reason they did not propose any Orlando/Tampa to Tallahassee direct route are a couple of factors:

1. There is no ROW available to use without much work reacquiring it.

2. Population density along that route does not justify spending the kind of money needed to build such a route. Internally they looked at it and found that there was no way to make the operating ratio come anywhere near one, or even 0.6 which seems to be a bogey that FDOT likes to use.

Notice that the route that AAF is building is part of the 2006 Vision Plan and in their reckoning it had an operating ratio over 1.0.



Alex M. said:


> I will agree with the others that SC's view is that rail means freight, period. Ditto GA. I also recall that some time ago, FEC was interested in buying a 30% stake in the NS line from Jacksonville to Macon, or Atlanta from NS the way NS has 30% holding in the KCS line from Meridian to Shreveport. I don't know if this proposal has been shelved, but if it went ahead and AAF's Brightline service succeeds financially, could that service be an option for Atlanta? I know it's a wild dream, but why not dream?


With AAF it is all about real estate. If they can find real estate opportunities they will be happy to run a railroad attached to it. Remember, the whole shebang is now owned by the Fortress Group, directly or indirectly. BTW, when the term FEC is being used here, I am assuming the term meant to be used is FECR if it a railroad deal. OTOH if it is something more than that like AAF, the outfit involved would be FECI, of which AAF is a subsidiary. AAF has no direct relationship to FECR. It is via the Fortress Group which owns both FECR and FECI, which are two separate companies.


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## Anderson (Nov 25, 2015)

The 2006 plan basically spat out what can best be described as "All Aboard Florida plus present Amtrak service". I suspect that after the bullet train plan got shot down a second time (and facing a favorable lending environment as well) they basically threw up their hands and said "Screw it, we'll build it ourselves".

A population density map of NE Florida suggests that there might be some room for service there; the problem is that the only through line up in that part of the state is the old S-line (which heads off to Jacksonville). It's pretty obvious on the basis of the existing lines that something _used_ to exist there, but now? Not so much.

If the facts on the ground (existing tracks, etc.) supported adding/restoring service on an existing line, or indeed even seriously upgrading an existing line, that might work. However, as things stand there's no line to upgrade and so you'd be looking at hundreds of millions of dollars in construction at a bare minimum to make it work.


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## afigg (Nov 25, 2015)

Came across a link to this Atlanta Journal Constitution article on the improving prospects for MARTA and transit expansion in the Atlanta metro region: Metro Atlanta transit talk gathers speed. Excerpt:



> But it also seemed like everywhere you turned, someone was hammering home the importance of public transportation in general, and MARTA in particular.
> 
> During a panel on infrastructure with about 700 attendees, commercial real estate developer David Allman said, “The next big piece after HB 170 is the expansion of MARTA. The perception of us not expanding MARTA is a huge negative in our competitiveness.”


If MARTA can expand with heavy rail extensions, a new light rail line and maybe even the Atlanta region gets serious about starting commuter rail service, that has relevance in building support to eventually add new intercity passenger rail trains.

If Amtrak can build a new station at Doraville with a direct connection to MARTA. AAF/Brightline extends passenger service to Jacksonville, and the NC Piedmont route grows in ridership and is seen as successful, those in combination with a larger and expanded MARTA system, provide a better foundation than the current once a day Crescent for Georgia to look at funding trains to NC or WAS as the low hanging fruit and then with track upgrades, corridor service to JAX and Florida.


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