# Feasibility of Florida-Chicago Train via Atlanta, Nashville, Louisvill



## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 30, 2016)

The train could use the following routing.

-CSX and possibly FEC South of Jacksonville

-CSX Jacksonville-Cordelle, GA via Waycross

-NS Cordelle, GA-Atlanta via Macon

-CSX Atlanta-Lousville via Chattanooga and Nashville

-Louisville and Indiana-Louisville-Indianapolis

Refueling could be done at endpoints and Atlanta (and if necessary Indianapolis and Jacksonville)

Using a generous average speed of 45 MPH, I was able to calculate a proposed schedule. It would require 4 Train sets and take a day and a half to complete.

Mile posts were calculated using current routes and Google maps on roads parallel to the railroad.

Northbound is the left time and Southbound is the right time.

I would appreciate feedback.

Thanks for your time.

0 CHICAGO, IL 4:54 PM-11:06 AM

--------------------------------------

29 Dyer, IN 5:15 PM-12:45 PM

74 Rensselaer, IN 4:15 PM-1:45 PM

122 Lafayette, IN 3:11 PM-2:49 PM

149 Crawfordsville, IN 2:35 PM-3:25 PM

196 INDIANAPOLIS, IN 1:32 PM-4:28 PM

239 Columbus, IN 12:35 PM-5:25 PM

279 Scottsburg, IN 11:42 AM-6:18 PM

307 Jeffersonville, IN 11:05 AM-6:55 PM

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312 LOUISVILLE, KY 10:58 AM-7:02 PM

352 Elizabethtown, KY 10:05 AM-7:55 PM

402 Cave City, KY 8:58 AM-9:02 PM

447 Bowling Green, KY 7:58 AM-10:02 PM

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497 Gallatin, TN 6:51 AM-11:09 PM

522 NASHVILLE, TN 6:18 AM--11:42 PM

557 Murfreesboro, TN 5:31 AM-12:29 AM

592 Tullahoma, TN 4:44 AM-1:16 AM

--------------------------------------

642 Stevenson, AL 3:37 AM-2:23 AM

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682 Chattanooga, TN 2:44 AM-3:16 AM

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717 Dalton, GA 1:57 AM-4:03 AM

742 Calhoun, GA 1:24 AM-4:36 AM

782 Cartersville, GA 12:31 AM-5:29 AM

807 Marietta, GA 11:57 PM-6:03 AM

827 ATLANTA, GA 11:30 PM-6:30 AM

852 McDonough, GA 10:57 PM-7:03 AM

902 Macon, GA 9:50 PM-8:10 AM

922 Warner Robins, GA 9:23 PM-8:37 AM

972 Cordele, GA 8:16 PM-9:44 AM

1007 Fitzgerald, GA 7:29 PM-10:31 AM

1037 Douglas, GA 6:49 PM-11:11 AM

1087 Waycross, GA 5:42 PM-12:18 PM

1122 Folkston, GA 4:55 PM-1:05 PM

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1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 4:02 PM-1:58 PM

1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 3:22 PM-2:28 PM

1220 Palatka, FL 2:05 PM-3:45 PM

1272 DeLand, FL 12:56 PM-4:54 PM

1304 Winter Park, FL 12:13 PM-5:37 PM

1309 ORLANDO, FL 12:06 PM-5:44 PM

1327 Kissimmee, FL 11:42 AM-6:08 PM

1377 Lakeland, FL 10:35 AM-7:15 PM

1408 TAMPA, FL 9:54 AM-7:56 PM

1440 Clearwater, FL 9:11 AM-8:39 PM

1463 ST. PETERSBURG, FL 8:40 AM-9:10 PM

1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 3:32 PM-2:18 PM

1199 St. Augustine, FL 2:43 PM-3:07 PM

1249 Bunnell, FL 1:36 PM-4:14 PM

1272 Daytona Beach, FL 1:05 PM-4:45 PM

1316 Titusville, FL 12:06 PM-5:44 PM

1356 Melbourne, FL 11:13 AM-6:37 PM

1404 Ft. Pierce, FL 10:09 AM-7:41 PM

1461 West Palm Beach, FL 8:53 AM-8:57 PM

1479 Delray Beach, FL 8:29 AM-9:21 PM

1489 Deerfield Beach, FL 8:16 AM-9:34 PM

1503 Fort Lauderdale, FL 7:57 AM-9:53 PM

1511 Hollywood, FL 7:46 AM-10:04 PM

1531 MIAMI, FL 7:19 AM-10:31 PM


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2016)

I'm guessing your northbound time in Chicago is wrong because how can a train leave Dyer and get in Chicago earlier (wouldn't be a time zone difference since they are both the same time).

In theory it's good but it will be expensive.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 30, 2016)

Sorry, I did not realize Dyer was Central time. Thanks for the correction.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 31, 2016)

Didn't we talk about how this train wouldn't work out a couple times before?

Sorry to discourage you, I had the same idea too 

Oh, and you can use the Floridian's mileposts from the 70's at timetables.org .


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2016)

It's always fun to 'construct' a proposed schedule....just a bit curious though....why did you begin the trips at such 'odd' times (instead of on the hour...)?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 31, 2016)

I started in Atlanta and Nashville in order to prevent either one from getting an overnight time. From there I calculated exactly 45 MPH between stations.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 31, 2016)

Didn't the Floridian bypass Indianapolis? I believe it also took a further west routing South of Nashville staying in Alabama much longer and bypassing Chatanooga, Atlanta, and Macon. I considered using that same route but this one is shorter and goes through larger cities.


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 31, 2016)

The Kentucky Cardinal is the most recent passenger train on the Louisville and Indiana between Indianapolis. It was very slow averaging about 25 miles per hour, but it was primarily a mail train. It carried Superliner Cars and merged with the Cardinal to/from Chicago at Indianapolis. I rode the Superliner Sleeper once and was the only customer. I got very good service from the SCA. Until the tracks through Indiana are upgraded, no passenger train from Chicago to Florida will make sense. I was a frequent traveler on the Floridian and previous South Wind from Chicago to Florida. In the late 60s before Amtrak, there was still a good passenger train market from Chicago to Florida via the City of Miami/South Wind which operated on alternate days. Unfortunately, the bad tracks that Amtrak had to deal with in the early 1970s drove passengers away with very late trains and being very undependable. Unless a train can be developed that will average 50-55 mph from Chicago to Florida, it would be a huge waste of money that Congress will not consider.


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## CoachSlumber (Mar 31, 2016)

jphjaxfl said:


> The Kentucky Cardinal is the most recent passenger train on the Louisville and Indiana between Indianapolis. It was very slow averaging about 25 miles per hour, but it was primarily a mail train. It carried Superliner Cars and merged with the Cardinal to/from Chicago at Indianapolis. I rode the Superliner Sleeper once and was the only customer. I got very good service from the SCA. Until the tracks through Indiana are upgraded, no passenger train from Chicago to Florida will make sense. I was a frequent traveler on the Floridian and previous South Wind from Chicago to Florida. In the late 60s before Amtrak, there was still a good passenger train market from Chicago to Florida via the City of Miami/South Wind which operated on alternate days. Unfortunately, the bad tracks that Amtrak had to deal with in the early 1970s drove passengers away with very late trains and being very undependable. Unless a train can be developed that will average 50-55 mph from Chicago to Florida, it would be a huge waste of money that Congress will not consider.


I will always remember boarding the Floridian in Chicago one evening in the late '70s. After departure, a passenger was flabbergasted to learn we would not be arriving in Florida the next morning, but the morning after that.


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Oh, and you can use the Floridian's mileposts from the 70's at timetables.org .


Maybe for part of the proposed route...(the Floridian went via Birmingham and Montgomery)....


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## ainamkartma (Mar 31, 2016)

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma


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## jis (Mar 31, 2016)

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 31, 2016)

If 55 MPH could be reached, I think the second proposed schedule would work well except I would make the northbound 3 hours later. This would give a better time in Miami and give Louisville a reasonable time, leaving Nashville as the only major city traversed overnight.


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2016)

jis said:


> You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.


Unless they could get it re-routed over the FEC....


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## jis (Apr 1, 2016)

That's why I said "current Amtrak route". After AAF build its JAX service, if Amtrak can run over FEC then 6 hours should be more than feasible. Of course I am sure FEC will extract quite a pretty penny for such access at that point too.


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## ainamkartma (Apr 1, 2016)

ainamkartma said:


> If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:
> 
> Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM
> 
> ...


OK, here's a concept. Since we will Real Soon Now have fast day service between Jacksonville and Miami on AAF, maybe the smart thing to do is terminate the South Wind at Jacksonville and let the Florida passengers connect onto AAF trains. Then the South Wind train set can be used to renew the "Sunrise Limited" by sending the same train overnight to New Orleans. So the schedule would look something like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Jacksonville 8:40 AM 6:30 PM

Tallahassee 4:30 AM 10:00 PM

Mobile 6:20 PM 5:30 AM

New Orleans 2:30 PM 10:20 AM

(The times for the Jacksonville-New Orleans section are from the 2002 Sunset Limited timetable, suitably offset to make the connections.)

This schedule uses four train sets.

The assumptions here are that you can make 55 mph average north of Jacksonville, that four train sets and relevant trackage rights magically appear, and that you can service and turn a train in four hours at New Orleans.

Note that this schedule allows a same day connection at New Orleans from the Sunrise Limited to the CONO, but not to the Sunset Limited and not from either existing train to the Sunrise Limited. That's pretty much a given as long as Amtrak sticks to afternoon to evening arrivals for the New Orleans trains.

Ainam "Main problem with Amtrak: on the ground, so I can't get Pie in the Sky in the diner" Kartma


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## jis (Apr 1, 2016)

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a


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## ainamkartma (Apr 1, 2016)

jis said:


> Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train
> 
> JAX 7:45p
> 
> ...


Do you know what is the method they intend to use to so dramatically speed up the schedule relative to 2002?

Thanks,

Ainam "Not that I'm objecting" Kartma


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## jis (Apr 1, 2016)

ainamkartma said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train
> ...


I don't know. It is a report that Amtrak put together and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

For methodology details read the report (PDF) at http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf


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## Palmetto (Apr 1, 2016)

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.
> ...


Nah, the folks in Martin County wouldn't allow that.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2016)

Martin County actually did want the Amtrak service, surprisingly.


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## railiner (Apr 2, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...




Why do you say that? What reason(s) could they possibly have to object to it?

I can't think of any reason for a location to not want train service, unless they had to pay for the privilege of its availability......


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## jis (Apr 2, 2016)

He is partly joking about the famous NIMBYs of Martin County who are mightily opposing AAF.


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## Palmetto (Apr 3, 2016)

Well, Martin County does, in fact, have train service. It's in Indiantown, not that there's a load rich, powerful NIMBYs there.


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## ainamkartma (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Thanks for the link. It makes interesting reading. Unfortunately, unless I missed it, it does not include any description of how the "conceptual" schedules were developed. I guess they are assuming the timekeeping problems with the Sunset Limited would be resolved somehow in some new deal with the host railroad. For what it is worth, their conceptual schedule has an average speed of about 44 mph between Jacksonville and New Orleans, while the 2002 SL schedule had an average speed of 37 mph over the same track.

Ainam "Fastest Tour de France stage speed ever: 34.5 mph" Kartma


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.


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## Anthony V (May 4, 2016)

Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying. However, there are many obstacles to this, many of them major ones. First, the L&I tracks (IND-LVL) would need to be upgraded from 30 mph to 79 mph and signalized. Second, south of LVL, CSX owns the tracks and they are some of the most heavily used in their system, especially NVL-CHT-ATL-JAX, so CSX would, without a doubt, ask for $$$$$$$$$ in capacity increases. Third, the Atlanta Brookwood station (on the NS line) is too small and gets crowded even at existing usage levels, and, even worse, is in the wrong place to be used for such a service without a long backup move (NS will not want that). The Atlanta MMPT would have to be built someday to solve the station problems, but the odds of finding funding for this massive project are about nil, especially in Georgia's current political climate, though the project still has never been canceled. All of this put together means that it is a longshot for a Chicago-Florida service along this route to happen anytime soon if ever.

However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above _are_ scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/media/press-releases/louisville-indiana-railroad-and-csx-close-on-joint-infrastructure-upgrade-project-between-indianapolis-and-louisville/?mobileFormat=true

Second, you might not realize it, but the study for the Gulf Coast rail service restoration project recommended extending the CONO to ORL, essentially creating a Chicago-Florida train. Further, efforts for this service are moving along pretty quickly and the goal is to have the train up and running in 3-4 years. So we may actually have a Chicago-Florida train fairly soon, albeit not on the route discussed in this thread, but it may soon be possible to travel from Chicago to Florida by a one-seat train ride for the first time since 1979.


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## west point (May 4, 2016)

ATL ? Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.


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## Anderson (May 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.


I think there _may _also have been some atrocious padding in the schedule which was a side-effect of running through to LAX.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 4, 2016)

Anthony V said:


> Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying.


Another CHI-Florida route could be CHI-IND-LVL-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL-Savannah-Florida. That Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL corridor has potential for two or more daily trains each way.


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## Anderson (May 4, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> Anthony V said:
> 
> 
> > Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying.
> ...


I'd need to check, but IIRC back in the 50s there were three routes which went Chicago-Miami. The times were basically identical between the trains in Florida and at CHI (and at one or two intermediate points)...basically three railroads each ran a train every third day so as not to cannibalize the market, but coordinated so customers had a basically stable schedule at key cities where possible.

Edit: Ok, you had the _Dixie Flagler_, the _City of Miami_, and the _South Wind_. Identical timecards in CHI and between JAX-MIA but different intermediate routings. That's part of the punch-up here: There's not enough definable business for three routes (and heck, I don't even know what tracks might be missing) but there are different route options which serve intermediate markets and all of those routings have a clear case for being chosen.

Edit 2: Some more thoughts:

-Martin County wanted the Amtrak service but not the FEC service, probably because the Amtrak service had stops around Martin County (IIRC Jupiter was one stop on both proposed trains) while the FEC service doesn't have any to start with.

-If I'm AAF/FEC, I'd want some compensation but I'd want the Amtrak trains in the following order:

--(1) Palmetto/Silver Palm. Can operate at night and be dispatched as if it were a fast freight instead of a high-speed passenger train. Arguably almost totally non-competitive with FEC services.

--(2) Silver Meteor. Only has two host RRs total (north of JAX, that is) and one of those is Amtrak. CSX treats the train pretty well and uses it to hook their cars onto. I'd force an agreement on equipment (must be high-floor compatible, etc.) as well so the train would be able to be dispatched the same as the planned FEC trains...and honestly, I might well demand to have the operating crew drawn from "my" people as well as a say in any tickets being sold "internally" (e.g. within the JAX-MIA stretch).

--(3) Silver Star. At present I would NOT want this train. Ignoring the Tampa backup, that little ten-mile stretch of NS would give me a fit in FEC's shoes since that sets up buck-passing and dispatch problems. I frankly would demand either a hell of a pad at JAX to make up for possible issues _or_ a re-route onto the planned S-line south of Richmond if that came to pass so as to avoid those issues.

Given the issues with Amtrak equipment at times, I might well just say "Guess what? If you're sending a passenger train down our tracks, it gets a Brightline locomotive, a Brightline operating crew, and we get some cut of the revenue to/from Brightline stations. We're not going to have you send a train down our line with a 'different' locomotive which proceeds to break down and foul our main line."


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Dec 19, 2016)

west point said:


> ATL ? Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.


I don't know if skipping ATL is a deal breaker for a Chicago-Florida train but the old Floridian bypassed ATL so could that be a possibility just to bring Amtrak back to Louisville and Nashville?


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## neroden (Jan 2, 2017)

Anthony V said:


> However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above _are_ scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/media/press-releases/louisville-indiana-railroad-and-csx-close-on-joint-infrastructure-upgrade-project-between-indianapolis-and-louisville/?mobileFormat=true


This opens up possibilities I hadn't thought of.
Shortlines tend to be *way* more friendly to passenger rail than, well, CSX.

CSX is not very interested in the Indianapolis-Chicago line of the Cardinal.

With the track upgraded from Indianapolis to Louisville, if the states of Indiana and Kentucky, or the cities, could somehow get interested enough to put real money into the route, a Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville train becomes quite plausible. The stations at Jeffersonville and Louisville remain intact. The biggest upgrades needed would still be from Chicago to Indianapolis.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 2, 2017)

As I have stated before, a Chicago to Florida train through the mid south whether it be via Atlanta or Birmingham will only be successful if it is competitive with driving times and is dependable. Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared. I heard many, many Amtrak passegers state "Never Again!" after arriving from Florida on a train that did not function properly. There's no point in making projections when there is no longer a market for that travel.


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## A Voice (Jan 2, 2017)

jphjaxfl said:


> Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.


The _Floridian_ was discontinued in 1979 as part of system-wide cuts initiated by the Carter Administration.

There remains a market for every other train which survived the bloody 1979 and mid-90's cutbacks, and there further remain markets for restoration of such services as New Orleans to Florida. What makes you think there would not be a market for Chicago (Mid-West) to Florida (southeast) travel?


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 2, 2017)

A Voice said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.
> ...


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## west point (Jan 2, 2017)

Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.

As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.

BHM - Columbus, Ga - Tifton has also been seriously downgraded in Ga and Cof Ga in Alabama not in great shape..

BHM - LaGrange, Ga - Manchester - Old ACL line to JAX. Now that is a possibility however the CSX Lineville sub is very busy with BOW line reroutes both from BHM and Mobile for Haz Mat.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 3, 2017)

The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 3, 2017)

The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.


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## west point (Jan 3, 2017)

Would like to compare possible route times CHI - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga -ATL with CHI - Cincinnati - Chattanooga times.


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## Woodcut60 (Jan 4, 2017)

ainamkartma said:


> If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:
> 
> Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM
> 
> ...


I too would ride this train any time.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 4, 2017)

Woodcut60 said:


> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> > If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:
> ...


I think the question is whether this train is scheduled more for end to end traffic or the intermediate markets. If you want to bring back service to areas which haven't had service since the late 70's (Louisville and Nashville) then having it scheduled during the graveyard shift is going to be a hard sell to these areas (or you can use the theory they will be happy just to have a train).

Looking at the gaps between cities not counting JAX-MIA (ORL is in the middle), the largest gap is between ATL-JAX. Ideally the graveyard shift would be between there but a 6am arrival into JAX puts it pretty close to the Silver Star (although if it skips TPA it would arrive MIA significantly earlier than the SS). There is a 5.5 hr gap southbound (not counting the time difference) between ATL and Nashville but that would put it either after midnight on one end and/or before 6am on the other.

The ideal southbound schedule in Florida to give passengers a choice in times would either be the proposed schedule arriving in ORL/MIA at night (but leaving Louisville and Nashville in the dark) or to arrive in ORL early and MIA around lunchtime (it would help train to cruise traffic which I have heard some are looking for). That would put JAX in the graveyard shift but that might not be as bad since they have two trains already (but any possibility of ATL-JAX traffic goes away). If you flipped the southbound schedule 12 hrs that leaves CHI at 5am. Push it so it leaves CHI at 7am you get Louisville 11:30AM, 1:40PM, Nashville 5:30PM, ATL 11:00PM, JAX 5:10AM (not too bad), MIA 11:50AM (assumedly ORL around 7:30-8am). Then CHI-ATL becomes an all day affair with no chance to sleep it off so that would hurt business between the two cities.

Northbound if you flip it 12 hours you get an evening departure from MIA (current Silvers are both morning) with only JAX during the graveyard shift (and 12:45am isn't that bad). Again, ATL-CHI is an all day affair.

Other than Louisville & Nashville, the other potential I see is ATL-JAX-MIA service. The schedule suggested between ATL and MIA would fit very well with the Crescent, perhaps as through cars (southbound can always be pushed back but northbound could be a problem unless you put MIA before 6am). Of course considering how things are in ATL now good luck with that.


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## WICT106 (Jan 4, 2017)

west point said:


> Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.
> 
> As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.
> 
> ...


I would route the train BHM - Montgomery - Bainbridge - Tallahassee - JAX, of only to claim that the train reached Florida earlier.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jan 4, 2017)

Just stop the train at Pensacola


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jan 5, 2017)

I think the best schedule and routing is NS from ATL-JAX and that being the overnight section. JAX is a servicing stop so early arriving trains sometimes spend 45 minutes there already. There are two platform tracks available so I think the best solution is to schedule the train from Chicago and the SS to arrive at the same time in both directions and hold there for 1-2 hours to allow for connections. The Chicago train could then be sent down the FEC and people from both the NEC and Chicago could access any station on the Florida peninsula either directly or via a cross platform transfer at JAX. Service would also be restored to the FEC without any lost service. On the sections of the route with Brightline trains, the stops can be discharge only southbound and receive only northbound to help gain cooperation from FEC. However, for this to work the schedule needs to be at least 1 1/2 hours faster CHI-ATL than the original post in this thread.


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## west point (Jan 5, 2017)

ainamkartma said:


> If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:
> 
> Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM
> 
> ...


If you think your schedule would work look at this schedule of the 1951 Royal Palm. TODAY it could all combine / split at Cincinnati. It was A SOU RR express CIN <> JAX. Just servicing and crew change locations. with that long of a train this poster wonders how it navigated the CHA terminal station back in ? The poor track CHI <> CIN today would need improving but it also covers the 3C corridor. If all connections are called the Royal Palm or another name might work just like Builder split at Spokane being over 750 miles? Once again many more cars needed. At least 5 train sets ?

Note 5 sleepers from Detroit. Detroit would not support that many now ? Also coaches, diner & lounge to MIA. Be sure to read carefully as some other RR's cars to CIN connected to other SOU trains including some to Tampa. Maybe a STL - Nashville <> CHA connecting Royal Palm train ?

EDIT:: NS's rat hole division should be faster today than this schedule ?. Also CIN cithy owns CIN- CHA that might work much like the NC DOT's work ? Also the relationship to a Cardinal might be considered ?

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html


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## west point (Jan 5, 2017)

Maybe a daily Cardinal could carry Royal Palm cars to CIN ? + eastbound Cardinal could carry passengers to / from the south ?

Would give Hialeah a quicker connection to the BEE shop ?


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## neroden (Jan 6, 2017)

OK, these are the cities to pitch it to:

(1) Cincinnati, the owner of the route

(2) Chatanooga, which for touristy reasons would like a train back

(3) Lexington

But I think it's dependent on better service from Cincy north.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 7, 2017)

Perhaps this is a sign of progress? https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/fra-southeastern-regional-rail-service-study-may-lead-to-restoring-chicago-florida-service/


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## west point (Jan 7, 2017)

Believe that for minimum costs ( still many bucks ) attach cars to a daily Cardinal to Cincinnati then use NS route to CHA - ATL - JAX ( Old Royal Palm ) and then regular route to MIA. ~ 840 miles of a new route. Then later add Nashville - Chattanooga connecting cars.


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## Palmetto (Jan 7, 2017)

This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general. And splitting trains. Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously. New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.


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## west point (Jan 7, 2017)

Do not forget the Spokane shuffle.

Cincinnati station is ? was laid out for making easy connections s, splitting , combining trains,

Although have not been there for years this is how it was set up at one time. From east to west. Cannot say for sure just how many passenger tracks are left.

1. Track,

2 station platform

3, track with connecting switches to #5

5. storage track with switches on both ends connecting to tracks listed on #3 & #5

6. track with connecting switches to #5

7. platform

8. Repeat the layout however any more platforms have now been removed.

This arrangement will make it the easiest station to interchange / rebuild trains of any layout. Albany certainly is not laid out that well. Also station concourse over tracks had stairs both to north and south speeding up passenger transits.


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## dlagrua (Mar 18, 2017)

If the Floridian service would ever be resurrected it would have to use the original route. That's where the stations are located as in Louisville and Nashville but there is a big stumbling block. Much of that route has old downgraded L & N RR class I freight track good for 10 mph? A major track upgrade would be needed and who is going to pay for it? Slow freights probably serve the railroad well for now.


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## west point (Mar 18, 2017)

For those who do not understand the Atlanta Howell tower problem suggest you check the link posted here. You will have to zoom in 9 - 11 times centering on Atlanta then the area north of 5 points. Check hhow close the yards are to Howell using the scale.

The tracks to Howell from the south are two - 2MTs, 2 NS to west and 2 to east CSX. The track that is NS from NE is 2 MT. 1 NS MT from NW + 2 yard tracks from Inman NS then 2MT CSX that includes yard leads from Tilford yard then the single track from north of CSX (SAL) at Howells transfer. Just a great bowl of spaghetti.

A close examination of times for Crescent ATL <> Anniston run from 25 minutes early to 15 - 30 minutes late. This poster would guess that any time between those 2 stations that is 25 minutes early or less to 30 minutes late 90% of delays are at Howell.

http://fragis.fra.dot.gov/GISFRASafety/


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 11, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general. And splitting trains. Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously. New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.


Case in point: The through cars between the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian. The PRIIA had suggested it back in 2010, it would add no equipment, fuel, or track rental. Yet Amtrak still hasn't done it.



west point said:


> If you think your schedule would work look at this schedule of the 1951 Royal Palm. TODAY it could all combine / split at Cincinnati. It was A SOU RR express CIN <> JAX. Just servicing and crew change locations. with that long of a train this poster wonders how it navigated the CHA terminal station back in ? The poor track CHI <> CIN today would need improving but it also covers the 3C corridor. If all connections are called the Royal Palm or another name might work just like Builder split at Spokane being over 750 miles? Once again many more cars needed. At least 5 train sets ?
> 
> Note 5 sleepers from Detroit. Detroit would not support that many now ? Also coaches, diner & lounge to MIA. Be sure to read carefully as some other RR's cars to CIN connected to other SOU trains including some to Tampa. Maybe a STL - Nashville <> CHA connecting Royal Palm train ?
> 
> ...


Probably the only reason I would hesitate in canceling the Cardinal is that Cincinnati would lose its service. If this train ever came to plan it would be a better use of the Chicago-Cincinnati leg and I would have no reason to want to keep it. Hopefully a new Royal Palm CHI-Florida CIN would get better times and/or daily service.


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## A Voice (Apr 11, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general. And splitting trains. Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously. New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.
> ...


How would it not require additional equipment? You'd have to send at least a coach (several more cars) from the current _Pennsylvanian_ on west to Chicago, but more importantly, unless it were a coach-only through train you would also need three (minimum) Viewliner sleepers which Amtrak simply doesn't have (but will shortly).

As for Chicago to Florida service, a split at Cincinnati would only serve to further increase the utility of the _Cardinal;_ There is no call for your continuing to attack such a hypothetical service.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


I've got the PIP up right now. It says that it would need 3 Viewliner sleepers, 2 Amfleet II coaches, and an Amfleet food service car. That would run two Amfleet coaches and the cafe off the current train through to CHI, and add a sleeper to the Pennsylvanian. The expectation was that this could be done within the context of the Viewliner II order...*cries*...due in FY13.


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## railiner (Apr 14, 2017)

Why would they run the cafe to Chicago? Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe? You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...


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## jis (Apr 14, 2017)

railiner said:


> Why would they run the cafe to Chicago? Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe? You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...


To provide food service to the single level portion without the need to climb stairs. Since it needs just one additional cafe, of which there is quite an abundance, it is a non-issue really. If enough Club-Cafes can be found, it also opens up the possibility of BC service.


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## A Voice (Apr 14, 2017)

jis said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Why would they run the cafe to Chicago? Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe? You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...
> ...


How often have you seen Amtrak place _two_ cafe or lounge cars within the same consist? More likely, the intention would be to run the _Capitol Limited_ with only a dining car - no Sightseer Lounge - and the single-level cafe/lounge sufficing for lounge space. Other trains which split en route generally operate with the diner in one section and the lounge to the alternate destination (_Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited_). Climbing stairs isn't really an issue (aside from mobility impairments, for which provision is made) and Amtrak has operated split-level trains before (Heritage sleepers and Superliner coaches).


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## jis (Apr 14, 2017)

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


I actually happened to have traveled with the guy who wrote the PIP on one of my WAS - CHI trips on the Cap and discussed this matter as we happened to be seated at the same table for dinner. (I had a roomette two doors down from his in the Trans-Dorm too) He has since been let go by Amtrak. I was just reporting on his take. Of course others can come up with other reasons.


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## A Voice (Apr 14, 2017)

jis said:


> I actually happened to have traveled with the guy who wrote the PIP on one of my WAS - CHI trips on the Cap and discussed this matter as we happened to be seated at the same table for dinner. (I had a roomette two doors down from his in the Trans-Dorm too) He has since been let go by Amtrak. I was just reporting on his take. Of course others can come up with other reasons.


I don't doubt what you were told, of course (and thanks for sharing), but I do wonder how that line of thinking came about. It's not like passengers on the lower level of Superliner sleepers and coaches don't already climb stairs -_ twice_ - to reach the serving area in the lounge car.


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## railiner (Apr 15, 2017)

Good points...but having 2 LSA's aboard seems expensive...AFAIK, Amtrak gave up that practice years ago on the Sightseer cars, not even sure if they staff the upper bars (if they even still exist), at peak times...


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