# NCDOT studies extending Amtrak service to Asheville and other cities



## tricia (Jul 21, 2022)

NCDOT officials conducting study on bringing passenger rail service to Asheville WLOS.com 7/20/22 "study was fueled by the proposal Amtrak released last year which included Asheville as a potential destination.... The study is looking at the type of service that might be offered, what times it would run, needed infrastructure as well as potential costs. Officials say they should have a draft of the study ready by the end of the year."


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 21, 2022)

That would be nice. 

I hear Asheville is lovely—but of course without a car there’s no way to get there now, I believe?


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## enviro5609 (Jul 21, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> That would be nice.
> 
> I hear Asheville is lovely—but of course without a car there’s no way to get there now, I believe?


There's a Greyhound bus-- I believe one long distance route that passes through (with terrible time keeping and odd hours), and some sort of short-haul service between Raleigh and Asheville.

Ideally you could connect Wilmington and Asheville via Raleigh/Charlotte Piedmont service. Vacation and weekend destinations on either end through the main population center in the state. I don't know if that works best as a through service, or more like the Heartland Flyer with time keeping to match the arrival of a Piedmont. I suppose that's why they do the studies.

This may not be a big a lift as it seems. I don't know about Asheville, but I know the City of Wilmington has actually maintained the abandoned right of way into downtown in hopes of passenger service returning.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 21, 2022)

The track between Salisbury and Ashville is still active. It would need to be upgraded to higher speeds for passenger service, like in the old days. It would also need to have PTC installed. I'm not sure if there is a signal system. The station near the entrance of the Biltmore estate is now a restaurant. I'm not sure if there is/was a station building further up toward the middle of town.
jb


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## tricia (Jul 21, 2022)

John Bobinyec said:


> The track between Salisbury and Ashville is still active. It would need to be upgraded to higher speeds for passenger service, like in the old days. It would also need to have PTC installed. I'm not sure if there is a signal system. The station near the entrance of the Biltmore estate is now a restaurant. I'm not sure if there is/was a station building further up toward the middle of town.
> jb


There's no station building or place to put one downtown. The tracks still in use by freight trains run along the river, making a station there more likely. 

And rather than Wilmington, it'd be most useful for a train at Asheville to connect to Amtrak's network leading to Washington and the NE corridor. Washington is a stressful full-day drive from Asheville---and having your car along there and/or in cities to the northeast is apt to be more a burden than a blessing. 

However, I'm skeptical about this study ever leading to anything other than more studies. This is by no means the first study of bringing passenger train service back to A'ville.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jul 21, 2022)

Poking around I found this interesting flyer put out by the Southern Railway touting the charms of Asheville in the Fall and Winter

Asheville--the Ideal Autumn and Winter Resort City

I was hoping to find an old schedule of the Southern's service to Asheville which I believe lasted past the debut of Amtrak as the Southern stayed out of Amtrak for the first few years.


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## VentureForth (Jul 21, 2022)

They've literally been studying this for two decades. Thought the coffin was nailed and buried. Back so long ago I can't remember or find on search, smaller towns like Old Fort actually spent money refurbishing their stations on their own to attract new rail service.

I believe the problem is that it is a VERY busy section of NS single-track and it moves very slowly through the mountains, making it not just your typically-slower-than-by-car scenario, but WAY-slower-than-by-car.


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## como (Jul 21, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> That would be nice.
> 
> I hear Asheville is lovely—but of course without a car there’s no way to get there now, I believe?


Asheville has an airport and is served by three or four airlines, and is within two hours of Charlotte and Greenville/Spartanburg airports which have frequent service from many airlines.


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## railiner (Jul 21, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Poking around I found this interesting flyer put out by the Southern Railway touting the charms of Asheville in the Fall and Winter
> 
> Asheville--the Ideal Autumn and Winter Resort City
> 
> I was hoping to find an old schedule of the Southern's service to Asheville which I believe lasted past the debut of Amtrak as the Southern stayed out of Amtrak for the first few years.











"Skyland Special" (Train): Timetable, Consist, Schedule


The Skyland Special was one of several secondary trains operated by the Southern. It served the Asheville to Jacksonville market, surviving until the late 1950s.




www.american-rails.com


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 21, 2022)

como said:


> Asheville has an airport and is served by three or four airlines, and is within two hours of Charlotte and Greenville/Spartanburg airports which have frequent service from many airlines.


Quick flights, but if you can get a deal on a Rent Car( hard to do right now,) it might be better to do that since short flights can be expensive and a car really helps when visiting the Ashville Region.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jul 21, 2022)

I thought I recall reading in a previous thread about this that there were issues with grades on the route to Asheville or something like that? Or is that a faulty memory?


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## Palmland (Jul 22, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> believe the problem is that it is a VERY busy section of NS single-track and it moves very slowly through the mountains, making it not just your typically-slower-than-by-car scenario, but WAY-slower-than-by-car.


Yes, it certainly is a slow mountainous route. But the NS has downgraded the line with only local freights and slower speeds. Even if back to higher speeds the Southern’s Asheville Special took about 5’30” Greensboro-Asheville. In it’s Amtrak days when Southern continued operation until 1977, the Asheville train survived as a tri weekly coach and dome coach train from Salisbury. That shortened the run to 4 hours.

Google says you can drive it in 2’40”.

However, it is a prime tourist destination and growing year round too. Don’t understand why NC doesn’t work with Amtrak for a Thruway bus connection to the Carolinian.

Restoring service to Wilmington and the booming coastal towns towards Morehead City would be a more likely candidate, albeit expensive since some track would have to be rebuilt. Again, seems like it would be easy to extend existing Palmetto/Wilson-Greenville Thruway bus or a faster 1.5 hour direct Thruway connection Selma (or Raleigh) to Wilmington.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jul 22, 2022)

I finally found an Asheville schedule. These are from a 1973 Amtrak Eastern Timetable, Looks like the Salisbury to Asheville connection was tri weekly. Edit: Note the Asheville connection had a dome coach! I'm sure people would kill for schedules like this today.


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## JRR (Jul 23, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> That would be nice.
> 
> I hear Asheville is lovely—but of course without a car there’s no way to get there now, I believe?


Asheville is really nice with a lot of attractions. Biltmore, Black Mountain etc. It’s about 11/2 hrs from Greenville so, you could always come to Greenville, stay with us, and go to visit Asheville us! Maybe a mini gathering!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 23, 2022)

JRR said:


> Asheville is really nice with a lot of attractions. Biltmore, Black Mountain etc. It’s about 11/2 hrs from Greenville so, you could always come to Greenville, stay with us, and go to visit Asheville us! Maybe a mini gathering!



That sounds wonderful! It would be great to have a mini gathering and see you both again!

I’ll put it on the bucket list for when the weather gets cooler.


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## jis (Jul 23, 2022)

NCDOT has been doing multiple studies to extend rail service to various cities...

NCDOT looks at passenger service to smaller NC cities
​


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## TheCrescent (Jul 23, 2022)

como said:


> Asheville has an airport and is served by three or four airlines, and is within two hours of Charlotte and Greenville/Spartanburg airports which have frequent service from many airlines.


Correct.

I was recently re-routed to Asheville’s airport, instead of Greenville/Spartanburg. Uber/Lyft to downtown Greenville (which has an Amtrak station) is about an hour and $60. 

Trains to Asheville will have a hard time being time-competitive with driving (2 hours to Charlotte) and flying (about 45 minutes total).


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## rookzie (Jul 24, 2022)

I want to apologize for such a lengthy comment to this thread, but I have felt that personal experience and other related history might help shed light on the reasoning for restoring Asheville to the passenger-rail network.

Just as with all other private carriers, the former Southern Ry’s passenger runs had been whittled down to rumps and remnants by the late 1960s ─ precipitated in part by the mass cancellation of mail contracts by the Post Office Department (now USPS) in September 1967. Service into and out of Asheville, which had been formerly known by the marketing names “Carolina Special” and “Asheville Special” had lost their names to mere numbers ─ a numbering convention which basically turned convoluted as more trains were consolidated and others discontinued.

Long before 1968, the “Carolina Special” had been a popular route serving Asheville. It provided direct service between Cincinnati and the Carolinas. with through-service to Spartanburg, and Columbia, SC. That had been the primary (southern) leg of this former named train, which at one time terminated as far as Charleston (along today’s Norfolk Southern W-Line). This ran along the famous (or “infamous”, in terms of grade steepness) “Saluda Grade” between Tryon and Saluda NC in rugged Western NC, southeast of Asheville. The Saluda Grade portion of this line probably never will see any trains again, as it currently is impassable and is deemed of no prospective value for freight service, much less for passenger. Basically the section between East Flat Rock NC and Landrum remains out of service (including the Saluda Grade itself), so there’s virtually no potential to restore this once primary passenger line. Beyond the scope of this discussion, likely the only value of the Saluda Grade (which is not officially abandoned) would be to convert it to a rail trail, if NS ever does decide to sell that portion (as it reportedly did with the portion between Asheville and East Flat Rock).

I used to regularly observe the daily nameless passenger run between Greensboro and Eastern NC via Durham, Raleigh, and Goldboro, as well as a separate connecting run from Greensboro to Western NC. These two “end-to-end” rumps had been all that remained of the northern leg of the former “Carolina Special”. The eastern run out of Greensboro to Raleigh and Goldboro, was unceremoniously and quietly cancelled by April 1964. The Greensboro- Asheville connection, via Winston-Salem and Barber, NC, survived into 1968. The train from Eastern NC to Greensboro in conjunction with the train from Greensboro to Asheville had been intended as feeders to points west to Knoxville, and to Chattanooga and beyond to points into the deep central South, to Northern Alabama and on to Memphis, and to Cincinnati for yet more connections. 

Asheville had a main passenger depot situated near the French Broad River, southwest of downtown. It had been located across from what is now the Glen Rock Apartments (site of the old Glenrock Hotel). But after December 1968, when both the remaining northern portion (by then terminating in Greensboro with no service east to Raleigh and Goldsboro), and the southern leg were dropped, the main station in Asheville was razed (probably during 1969-’71). The Biltmore station then became the only stop in that city. In turn, that left only the nameless rump of the former “Asheville Special”, the run between Asheville and Salisbury, NC ─ trains 3 and 4. Since Southern opted to not join Amtrak (partly in fear that Amtrak would reduce the flagship “Crescent” to a sorry excuse of a train), the Asheville-Salisbury run remained until August 1975.

The “Carolina Special”, along with its much shorter companion “Asheville Special” had been constituent of the grand interlacing of passenger rail service and connecting points, which collectively prevailed as the primary infrastructure for personal transport, at least throughout the first decade of the post WW-II era. For many alive today, it might be difficult to envision the role Asheville once held within the vast network of transfer points. During my early years, several of my own family members used to travel between Middle Tennessee and the Carolinas via Asheville.

I used to ride the rump between Asheville and Salisbury, with a layover between what then remained of the former “Piedmont Limited”, by then a mixed-train with TOFC (trailer on flatcar) “pigs” tacked on the rear (“piggyback”). It was an interesting and virtually obscure train, usually assigned a single EMD FP7 locomotive unit with an ex-CofG (Central of Georgia) combine (Budd coach-baggage from the former “Man-o-War”) and an ex-Wabash RR dome coach (from the former jointly owned UP-WAB “City of St. Louis”). During peak periods, it often carried a 3rd (or 4th coach) during its final years). As at least one other already has been stated, NCDOT has considered restoring service to Asheville for quite a number of years ─ at least since 2001, so this is nothing really of any “new” news. In addition to a possible reconnection of an Asheville link at Salisbury, North Carolina also has discussed restoration of service between Greensboro and Winston-Salem, although I have not heard any mention of extending that westward beyond Winston to perhaps Barber Junction, Statesville, Old Fort, and on to Asheville (in favor of the proposed Salisbury-Barber-Asheville route). The proposed route of the service ─ either Asheville – Barber Junction – Salisbury; or Asheville – Barber Junction – Greensboro could connect to the existing service Raleigh – Charlotte ─ either at Salisbury or at Greensboro. An Asheville – Greensboro route could serve now-congested Winston-Salem and the “bedroom” village of Clemmons, neither of which have had passenger rail since 1968. But the Asheville-Salisbury route would provide a more direct path to Greater Charlotte ─ the states’ largest population center ─ while it would render a circuitous and inconvenient route between Raleigh and Greensboro/Winston-Salem, unless direct service to the latter is extended at least to Barber, to connect with Asheville-Salisbury.

Yes, one could drive the distance, Asheville – Greensboro or to Salisbury in a fraction of the time a train could do it along the existing terrain ─ particularly between Ridgecrest and Old Fort via the Burgin Tunnel and the mountain. But the long-range mission of NCDOT has been to connect by passenger rail the populated areas of all the state’s regions. Many either choose not to drive and to be bothered with a car, and many either choose not to fly or have accessibility impediments to air travel, which does entail more than merely boarding a plane. Or they don’t have the resources of private transport. NCDOT’s intent is to provide options beyond just intercity bus. Unlike with other more recently proposed Amtrak corridors, this would not be a candidate for HrSR (highER speed rail), and I don’t believe the state really had that in mind for implementing this mountainous extension.

schedules scanned from personal timetables.
[photo - © William Franklin Clodfelter]


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## KarmicPopcorn (Jul 24, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Correct.
> 
> I was recently re-routed to Asheville’s airport, instead of Greenville/Spartanburg. Uber/Lyft to downtown Greenville (which has an Amtrak station) is about an hour and $60.
> 
> Trains to Asheville will have a hard time being time-competitive with driving (2 hours to Charlotte) and flying (about 45 minutes total).


Tell you what, 2 hour drive to Asheville is better than 9 hours to Chicago or 7 hours to Memphis - our closest stations. Amtrak thruway bus is not an option. I tried it, it's miserable and the people are slightly crazy.


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## toddinde (Jul 25, 2022)

rookzie said:


> I want to apologize for such a lengthy comment to this thread, but I have felt that personal experience and other related history might help shed light on the reasoning for restoring Asheville to the passenger-rail network.
> 
> Just as with all other private carriers, the former Southern Ry’s passenger runs had been whittled down to rumps and remnants by the late 1960s ─ precipitated in part by the mass cancellation of mail contracts by the Post Office Department (now USPS) in September 1967. Service into and out of Asheville, which had been formerly known by the marketing names “Carolina Special” and “Asheville Special” had lost their names to mere numbers ─ a numbering convention which basically turned convoluted as more trains were consolidated and others discontinued.
> 
> ...


Your points are very well taken. Many travelers are not super time sensitive, and may be less so in the future. First, the boomers are retiring, and a large demographic will be retired. Second, many jobs are eligible for remote or telework. Driving is lost time as far as productivity goes with the exception of phone calls. A train with WiFi is basically a mobile office. Third, ride sharing services like Uber and Lyft are ubiquitous now. There is no last mile problem because you can easily Uber it. I believe Brightline is arranging door to door trips, or is planning to. It won’t be long before you whip out Google maps, pick where you want to go and the time, select your mode of travel, and your trip from door to door will be arranged. Finally, speed is an interesting thing. Seventy-nine mph is pretty fast if you get rid of stretches of slow running. It’s a lot easier to go from 35 to 50, or 50 to 79 mph track, then build high speed, and it’s a lot cheaper. Again, with the ability to work on the train, it’s quite possible that it’s not essential to go lightening fast in some corridors. I’ll look forward to riding that beautiful stretch of track.


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## west point (Jul 25, 2022)

toddinde said:


> Seventy-nine mph is pretty fast if you get rid of stretches of slow running. It’s a lot easier to go from 35 to 50, or 50 to 79 mph track, then build high speed, and it’s a lot cheaper.


A good example of getting rid of slow sections is NC DOT improvements CLT <> Raleigh.Don't remember actual schedule reductions but they were substansial. Crescent often makes up almost 40 minutes CLT >< Greensborough. Now if it can improve the tracks and with PTC sections might go to 90 MPH.

As far as Ashville it might be NC can construct a much steeper and faster ttrack speeds grade around Old Fort might reduce the time between Salisbury and Ashville?


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## cirdan (Jul 26, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Poking around I found this interesting flyer put out by the Southern Railway touting the charms of Asheville in the Fall and Winter
> 
> Asheville--the Ideal Autumn and Winter Resort City
> 
> I was hoping to find an old schedule of the Southern's service to Asheville which I believe lasted past the debut of Amtrak as the Southern stayed out of Amtrak for the first few years.



wow, beautiful document.

I wonder how many of those amazing buildings still survive.


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## rookzie (Jul 26, 2022)

The schedule I posted a cropped image from (above) I got before I boarded that train for the last time, December 1974.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 26, 2022)

I did not read EVERY line of this thread but I did read a bunch. I grew up near the line and crossed it a few times a week in Conover and played little league right beside the tracks in Newton. I would love to have Amtrak running this way. My mom still lives close enough that I could use this to visit.


There are signals on the S-Line but not CTC, I am not sure what that type of system this is called, TWC I guess. That would need an upgrade and I assume a costly one but some signals are in place.

I think I read the last passenger train was 1975 out of Asheville. Greyhound bus runs that way from Greensboro/Winston-Salem and I think farther east such as Durham and Raleigh. I bet something from Charlotte finds its way there as well. And Asheville has a small airport that at least connects to Charlotte and likely Atlanta and maybe a few more east coast hubs. I have never used this airport and it may not even be big enough to have jetways but it does have scheduled flights.

The S-line is owned by NS unlike the rail line that the Carolinian and Piedmont use from Charlotte to Raleigh and the Crescent uses from Charlotte to Greensboro. (By the way someone spelled my city as Greensborough. It has been over a century since we used that spelling.  )The state of NC owns the line from Charlotte to Raleigh and onward to Morehead City through owning 100% of the stock of the North Carolina RR and has used this ownership as leverage in the last rent agreement with NS to get NS to be more passenger friendly, hence more Piedmonts running now.

Someone mentioned some upgrades NC has spent money on. The grade crossing at McLeansville Rd right near my house was converted from at-grade to a bridge that took some major grading to build a hill to cross over with enough clearance to run a quadruple stacked train. It was not cheap but it shaved off 40 seconds on the run from Raleigh to Charlotte or something like that. They also extended the passing track here. I think most of this funding came from the profit from the NCRR that is all owned by the state. (This is the area where CP McLeansville and CP Superior are located which I have mentioned before that I collect those signals for ATCSMon and TrainMon5 for those that do any of that stuff.) They have also spent money lessening curves near Haw River that can be seen from the train if you know what to look for. So NC is willing to spend money on passenger rail for even slight gains in time. I think I read that the Haw River work saved 10-15 seconds.

I have a Facebook friend that is pretty connected to Raleigh politicians given his job so he knows his stuff and he loves trains. His politics are 180% opposite of mine but we both love trains and Amtrak. Just today he was posting about Greenville, NC wanting in on the Amtrak action and all the problems with getting service there. In a side comment he mentioned that funding was 100% in place for Thruway bus service to Asheville and then .... Covid hit. We do have Thruway service to Morehead City and Wilmington and have had that for a few years so the state of NC has some history of supporting this over longer distances. Again, knowing his job I have no reason to doubt this being factual.

Back around 2018-2019 when NS did a lot of shuffling of their operations they essentially shuttered the Linwood freight hump yard and moved operations to other yards with Greensboro picking up a lot of the work it seems. At that time NS dropped any through freight that ran all the way from Salisbury to Asheville. I am not sure of the train count but everything is now locals form Salisbury to Hickory or Hickory-Statesville or Asheville-Hickory from what I have gathered from hearing from my freight railfans. The operations are way down basically. This allows room for some passenger trains but NS is still not budging without the state paying for the improvements. NS pushed some other lines off to short lines around 2014 that lead out of Asheville and that could happen to the S-line from Asheville to Salisbury. At that point the state might step in and purchase the line and either lease it back to NS or to a short-line for freight with the ideal that passenger trains are given track time as well. Or NS might sell to a short-line (and by sale they may continue ownership but do a long term lease) and then the state dump money on the short-line to upgrade the service. Personally I would like to see the state give a sweetheart deal for the NC-line with passenger access to the S-line as part of the deal the next time the lease comes up (or before then even.) My concern is the S-line is left to fall apart slowly as freight dries up and money is not put back into the line and it is not good enough to repair for what the state can afford. The S-line may not become Saluda with no trains but it could become enough patches of unused rail that complete trip from Asheville to Salisbury could have large stretches of what would be classed at 10 MPH rail and that is not going to work for passenger rail, not even tourist rail could use that. We are not there yet but freight has dropped off a lot on this line. That is both a positive and negative for Amtrak to Asheville in my view.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 26, 2022)

cirdan said:


> wow, beautiful document.
> 
> I wonder how many of those amazing buildings still survive.


My wife and I were in Asheville last weekend for a minor league baseball game. Biltmore and Grove Park Inn are still there. Park square has a building on it I do believe now and of course the street cars are long gone. There was a diarama in the library downtown and had 4 or 5 time periods and it focused on Park Square I do believe. 
To have grown up so close to Asheville we never drove to that part of the NC mountains so I never spent much time there. At best I did a drive through or got off the Blue Ridge Parkway there but did not venture into downtown and such. It is a nice city to visit year round, and seems to hit above it size in things to do, some of which are free and some more expensive.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 26, 2022)

west point said:


> A good example of getting rid of slow sections is NC DOT improvements CLT <> Raleigh.Don't remember actual schedule reductions but they were substansial. Crescent often makes up almost 40 minutes CLT >< Greensborough. Now if it can improve the tracks and with PTC sections might go to 90 MPH.
> 
> As far as Ashville it might be NC can construct a much steeper and faster ttrack speeds grade around Old Fort might reduce the time between Salisbury and Ashville?


I would think the Loops at Old Fort would be an attraction more so than the need to decrease time to Asheville, especially in the autumn with fall leaves changing colors and the geyser doing it thing at the park at the Loops.


If you told me it would be billions to make the Old Fort area straighter to save time I would respond, "Sound about right." North Carolina is not spending that sort of money for a few miles of track.


I think Charlotte to Greensboro is 100% double track with a good many crossovers. Greensboro to Raleigh is more passing tracks, which is better than single track in that it does allow passing but it still means one is going very slow on the passing track. I do wish the entire Charlotte to Raleigh was double track. Here are future plans but all around the state.
https://www.ncrr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Capital-project-summary_updated-05242021.pdf


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## rookzie (Jul 27, 2022)

McLeansvilleAppFan said:


> ....
> ....
> Someone mentioned some upgrades NC has spent money on. The grade crossing at McLeansville Rd right near my house was converted from at-grade to a bridge that took some major grading to build a hill to cross over with enough clearance to run a quadruple stacked train. It was not cheap but it shaved off 40 seconds on the run from Raleigh to Charlotte or something like that. They also extended the passing track here. I think most of this funding came from the profit from the NCRR that is all owned by the state. (This is the area where CP McLeansville and CP Superior are located which I have mentioned before that I collect those signals for ATCSMon and TrainMon5 for those that do any of that stuff.) They have also spent money lessening curves near Haw River that can be seen from the train if you know what to look for. So NC is willing to spend money on passenger rail for even slight gains in time. I think I read that the Haw River work saved 10-15 seconds.
> 
> ...


Yes, it might have shaved 40 sec off the run, but more important is the fact that one "major minor" [rural] level crossing was removed ─ at that point in particular.

I used to ride that run about four time annually on both 79,80 ("Carolinian") and 73-78 ("Piedmont"), from 1992 through 2006, although numbers 73-78 service commenced around 1995, and was progressively increased to 3 round-trips daily by 2018. While it's cost-prohibitive to eliminate crossings all but one at a time, McLeansville Rd. ─ even back then ─ was considered a thoroughfare "arterial" (as it were) as a country road. The collision between Nº80 with the dump truck in early spring 2006 probably had been that proverbial "straw" that made the pot boil over for that crossing. It would become even more of a nuisance with progressively increased service for the "Piedmont". On occasion, I myself used to beeline from Brown's Summit via that road, to the Burlington Hywy (US-70). Visits to that region are rare anymore, with nearly all relatives now having passed on.

Another thing is, as "vine'y-windy" as that RoW had been, any upgrade that improves the dynamics of travel even with conservatively modest speed improvements for a given stretch on an ad-hoc basis, also reduces equipment wear and tear. I also recall when that line was still all jointed rail, even long after the last passenger local was cancelled in March 1964, as I used to walk it at some points ─ between Ward, Buchanan Church; and from Wagoner Bend to the old underpass at the highway, decades before US-70 was realigned.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 27, 2022)

rookzie said:


> Yes, it might have shaved 40 sec off the run, but more important is the fact that one "major minor" [rural] level crossing was removed ─ at that point in particular.
> 
> I used to ride that run about four time annually on both 79,80 ("Carolinian") and 73-78 ("Piedmont"), from 1992 through 2006, although numbers 73-78 service commenced around 1995, and was progressively increased to 3 round-trips daily by 2018. While it's cost-prohibitive to eliminate crossings all but one at a time, McLeansville Rd. ─ even back then ─ was considered a thoroughfare "arterial" (as it were) as a country road. The collision between Nº80 with the dump truck in early spring 2006 probably had been that proverbial "straw" that made the pot boil over for that crossing. It would become even more of a nuisance with progressively increased service for the "Piedmont". On occasion, I myself used to beeline from Brown's Summit via that road, to the Burlington Hywy (US-70). Visits to that region are rare anymore, with nearly all relatives now having passed on.
> 
> Another thing is, as "vine'y-windy" as that RoW had been, any upgrade that improves the dynamics of travel even with conservatively modest speed improvements for a given stretch on an ad-hoc basis, also reduces equipment wear and tear. I also recall when that line was still all jointed rail, even long after the last passenger local was cancelled in March 1964, as I used to walk it at some points ─ between Ward, Buchanan Church; and from Wagoner Bend to the old underpass at the highway, decades before US-70 was realigned.


Since you know all of these roads I will mention road names. When did you move away from this area? If you are back in this area do drop me a note here and maybe we can meet for a meal. 

We moved from the south side of Greensboro near the CF-line to McLeansville in 2009 and soon after NC DOT was having a meeting about all the changes around McLeansville.

The bridge for McLeansville Rd went off as planned. Carmen Rd (just east of the bridge) had a grade crossing closed and I think that was planned as part of this. The very end of Friedens Church Rd (just west of the bridge) was going to be closed but that left only one road for exit for a small community behind McLeansville Baptist Church so those homeowners had this crossing kept open but some vertical sticks in the middle of the road were added to prevent cars going around the gates arm. So that was changed from the plan. Just a bit farther west was a private grade crossing to a home and I remember the DOT people stating that was not going to be closed until they could figure out how to reroute the driveway. That was closed. 

I think they need to put a bridge at Colony as there is a hill on one side and building up the road to cross a creek would not interfere with any driveway or private access to property as there is not any access there that I am aware of. Power Line Rd could be closed if Wagoner is kept open but given how close the track is to Carmon Rd and Wagoner I am not sure what could be done there except a crossing at grade (closing the crossing would be a hard sell I bet.) Joyner St in Gibsonville could be closed in my view, but I don't live there to hear the complaints. Springwood Ave likely would be hard to change but nothing is impossible if one wants to force the issue. After Springwood Ave one is in Alamance County so I'll leave it to others to figure that out, though there are a few places there that could have at-grade crossings closed around Elon.

40 seconds here and there does add up, so I don't want to come across talking bad about the improvements, but from what I have read the easy stuff (meaning cheap with big effects has now been done so what is left is either expensive or helps with the time for under 10 seconds each improvement.) from Greensboro to Raleigh. They do need to just close the one bridge in Durham. They have done some work to make that low bridge safer but anything that hits that bridge results in huge delays waiting on inspections. That is only helpful if a truck hits the underside of the bridge but that happens enough that I would call in an improvement.


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## JRR (Jul 29, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> That sounds wonderful! It would be great to have a mini gathering and see you both again!
> 
> I’ll put it on the bucket list for when the weather gets cooler.


Please do. It would be great to get together again!


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## rookzie (Jul 29, 2022)

McLeansvilleAppFan said:


> Since you know all of these roads I will mention road names. When did you move away from this area? If you are back in this area do drop me a note here and maybe we can meet for a meal.
> 
> We moved from the south side of Greensboro near the CF-line to McLeansville in 2009 and soon after NC DOT was having a meeting about all the changes around McLeansville.
> 
> ...


Thanks, McLeansvilleAppFan, for the kind outreach and social offer.

Sadly, I have no reason to return to the region in the foreseeable future. The last of my relatives there passed on in October 2009 ─ that is, the last ones who "count", so to speak. A few 2nd and 3rd cousins and their families remain, in both Guilford and Alamance counties, but we're not close enough for me to care about returning (since 2015). I myself never lived there, nor anywhere else in NC, although I do have (or have had) "nth-removed" relatives in Buncombe, Edgecombe, Randolph, Davidson, and Durham counties since the late 19th century. My mother's side of the family were North Carolinians, and Guilford County was her birthplace. My parents met there, moved to Delaware, then settled in middle Tennessee, where I got "dumped out", so to speak.

From 1951-2009 inclusive, visits and even lengthy seasonal stays in NC were ritual for me, and the train was interlaced with most of that personal history, since the days of the Southern Ry "Peach Queen", "Piedmont Limited", "Crescent", and a few other mainline runs in the early postwar period. When I worked for the Norfolk Southern during the '80s (stationed in Ohio and Virginia), I even rode the trial "pilot" service (1984-'85) of the "Carolinian", when it used the then-still-fully-extant SBD (Seaboard System) S-Line through Norlina, Henderson, Kittrell, Wake Forest, and the SAL station in Raleigh, before switching to the H-Line.

That said however, I also foresee no opportune moments in even the distant future to partake in any proposed service upgrades to Va. and NC, as these states' ambitious rail plans continue to materialize. Thanks again for the offer.


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