# amtrak.com Changes



## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

**** Please use this thread only to discuss changes to the website. Thank you! ****

Just went on the site and when you pull up an itinerary, you are now only shown the full price for the trip including rooms. They do not show you the room costs.

Am I just missing something? Since I found no other discussion about this, I am assuming it just came out this morning.

(sorry if this has already been discussed. Been away from the board for a week and was unable to find any new discussion about this)


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## Shanghai (Sep 15, 2013)

I tried the new Amtrak Website to obtain information on a future trip.

I did the test booking, but found there was no place to indicate that

I am a senior to get the senior discount on rail travel. Have anyone

tried using the new system?


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## JoeRids (Sep 15, 2013)

I think it depends on the trip you try to book. Sometimes the trip prices each room individually, and sometimes it only comes up as a total price. I'm not sure why it does this, but try another trip and it might be different.


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

It looks to me like this is a redesign of trip output. Not even a place to list room prices.


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

Here is a screenshot...


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

I just started another thread a few minutes ago. You can now choose Senior under where you choose your dates of travel.


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

While looking at the new redesign, there are now "Value" and "Flexible" fares:



> Value Fares
> 
> Value Fares are refundable with a 10% fee. Value Fare reservations can be canceled and modified for the full value of the ticket saved as an eVoucher that can be used for future Amtrak travel or as a money back refund after a 10% refund fee. The Value Fare is available on all trains or buses.





> Flexible Fares
> 
> Flexible Fares are 100% refundable. Flexible Fare reservations can be canceled and modified for the full value of the ticket saved as an eVoucher that can be used for future Amtrak travel *or as a full money back refund with no refund fee*. The Flexible Fare is available on most trains or buses.


It looks like the cost increase for a flexible fare is pretty significant, 20%-20% based on some quick browsing. I wouldn't pay for one (full e-voucher is fine by me), but good on Amtrak for potentially increasing revenue in a "soft" way.


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

I like this much better, I'd rather just get an "all in" price up front without having to do the math in my head.

Plus, it'll give you an accurate price - when coach fares were in anything but the lower bucket, the price for a room was misleadingly high when you did that math in your head.

The cherry on top is that it also tells you "1 room available at this price" - can be a good guide for when prices are going to change.

Sadly, this breaks Amsnag, since the elements that it's scraping have changed considerably. Hopefully it can be reconfigured to work with the new layout.


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I like this much better, I'd rather just get an "all in" price up front without having to do the math in my head.
> 
> Plus, it'll give you an accurate price - when coach fares were in anything but the lower bucket, the price for a room was misleadingly high when you did that math in your head.
> 
> ...


It used to be, it would show you the price for the room, then once you selected it it gave you a total. No need to do anything in you head. Now, if you want to know how much you are paying for a room, you have to do the math.

Also, Amsnag seems to still be working fine and now looks like the ONLY place to see room prices.


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

If people saw the high bucket coach price, and a high room price, they'd likely never click on the room to see the cheaper price.

Example:







When presented with this screen, the logical thought for some is "I'm not paying $350 for a coach ticket and then adding $381 on top of that for a room. I'm not spending $731 on that trip".

It isn't until you click on the room that the correct price is displayed:






The first image should have said "Add $255 per room", since $350 (coach fare displayed) + $255 = $605 ("all in" price for a roomette.

Room prices are irrelevant. What matters is "how much is this trip going to cost me?".

When I try to use amsnag, I get the following error:



> Query failed: insert into choice select distinct sessId,conCode,seg,train, depSta, arrSta from result where sessId = order by conCode,seg
> 
> Error: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'order by conCode,seg' at line 2
> 
> ...


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## City of Miami (Sep 15, 2013)

There's also that 'saver/value/flexible/premium' categorization across the top. I wonder what's up with that? Sounds like Greyhound. Not going to be good news for us, I expect.

I checked a price last night (old system) and again this morning (new system) and the cost is ~5% higher. That trip was TOL-CVS sleeper senior Jan 13: $210.....now $221


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 15, 2013)

Unfortunately, for me, they still don't show the prices until you book it when using the disability booking method.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 15, 2013)

Hmmmmm! Looks like another Surprise!!!  from Amtrak to it's Best Customers! Perhaps they should have given some notice and/or had a Test/Trial Period to work out any "Bugs" that are sure to show up! h34r:

I did a Test Booking from AUS-TAY- and the Fares ranged from $6,80 (Senior) to $54!!!!  for a 25 mile/45 Minute Ride! The point about Not Showing Room Prices till you Choose a Coach Fare seems a Valid Point to me also! Perhaps if I knew what a "Premium" Fare was I might consider it.? Maybe you get to ride in the Engine like on Tourist Trains or perhaps Tempo thinks they can charge NEC Prices on the Eagle Route!

(Sarcasm intended! )Premium is actually the Rail Fare and Room Price combined if you Select that Choice! And how is Business Class Selected/Booked?????

No me gusta! :angry:


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Room prices are irrelevant. What matters is "how much is this trip going to cost me?".
> 
> When I try to use amsnag, I get the following error:
> 
> ...


While presenting the total cost is just fine for a lot of people, they should still be showing the room price SOMEWHERE. I certainly would not say showing the room price is irrelevant. The way it is now there is no way to know how much you are paying for a room!

Just checked amsnag again and it was working fine. You sure you have the right link to the current version? (http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php) At least that is what I use and it works for me.


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## ne52 (Sep 15, 2013)

So is the only way to book business class now to book a "Premium" fare? Just ran a search NYP>WAS and picked #67... same scenario for any NE Regional


Monday, September 30, 2013
3:00am - 6:57am
3 hr, 57 min
67 Northeast Regional



SAVER
$49.00
1 Reserved Coach Seat

Only 1 seat at this price

VALUE
$84.00
1 Reserved Coach Seat

Only 1 seat at this price

FLEXIBLE
$164.00
1 Reserved Coach Seat


PREMIUM
$125.00
1 Business Class Seat
Only 1 seat at this price

When you check out on any, there's no option to add the business upgrade. It was normally +$41 to add business class and low bucket was upgradeable. Now it looks like PREMIUM is really just VALUE with $41 already included.


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## City of Miami (Sep 15, 2013)

Up until today coach reserved seat tickets were fully refundable, i.e. it was only sleepers that had the refund fee.

AFAIK the only exception was the 14 day advance purchase 25% off NEC fares.


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## City of Miami (Sep 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> It looks like the cost increase for a flexible fare is pretty significant, 20%-20% based on some quick browsing.


Why would someone buy that ticket when the refund penalty is 10%? Same flexibility, right?


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## montezume (Sep 15, 2013)

Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -


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## the_traveler (Sep 15, 2013)

As someone who knows about buckets, I don't care for it. But the average Amtrak rider, I think they'll like it.


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## the_traveler (Sep 15, 2013)

montezume said:


> Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -


I didn't do a test booking all the way thru, but it used to be on the next screen.


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## atm79 (Sep 15, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> montezume said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -
> ...


It is still there. Once you add the trip to your cart, you'll get the fare breakdown on the next screen just like before.


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## atm79 (Sep 15, 2013)

montezume said:


> Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -


On the homepage where you're entering your search criteria, you'll see a new tab labeled "Other Discounts." If you click on that, you'll see a drop-down menu at the bottom for Passenger #1 where you can select from a variety of discounts.


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## BOS-T-Time (Sep 15, 2013)

Hello,

I guess I am with the ones that do not like change, especially to a system that seemed to work just fine and was very transparent in regards to what you are paying for.

I did a test booking on the 23 OCT from BOS-ATL via NYP. Northeast regional at 8:15 connecting to the Crescent. The Saver fare; quote from Amtrak "Saver Fares are the lowest available fares and include deeply discounted non-refundable fares" is $311.00 all coach. The Value fare, which is the next level up (I think?) is $159.00. So something is not right here if the "lowest available fare" is higher than the next level up.

--BOS-T-Time

Thankfully the app on the IPhone has not been changed.


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## amamba (Sep 15, 2013)

montezume said:


> Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -


I couldn't find it either.

Then I logged into amtrak.com, and I have input my personal AAA number into my profile. Once I logged in, the prices that were shown were with the discount INCLUDED.

So a standard trip I take is PVD - BOS. The lowest fare is $15 (besides the E bucket, that is $11). In any case, once I logged in it was showing me $13.50 (with AAA discount) rather than $15.

So what is the deal on the NEC between the Value and Flexible fares? Do the value fares not allow one to get a refund anymore?


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## amamba (Sep 15, 2013)

I am also seeing weird stuff on the NEC where the premium fare (ie, a business class seat on a regional or FC on acela) is cheaper than the "flexible" fare.

So I don't get what the flexible fare is - I thought when you had booked FC or BC on a regional that the fares were fully refundable anyway? So why book a "flexible" fare if the premium fare is in a better class and cheaper?


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## SubwayNut (Sep 15, 2013)

Stupidly I've been experimenting with my NARP discount on lines with 'Saver' fares that require the 2 week book ahead rule ect. Strangely you have to physically now remove your discount to get the saver option to appear (you have to start as an Adult). If you start with NARP you get the only more expensive discounted 'Value' fares, not just Saver.

I think this new option makes mostly sense once Amtrak iron outs the kinks. (such as displaying Saver options when you look up a trip with everyday discounts they can't be applied too)

Multi-City tickets (that I normally book to add short stopovers for extra AGR points) displays haven't changed and still give the discounted 'through' fares luckily!


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Hmmmmm! Looks like another Surprise!!!  from Amtrak to it's Best Customers! Perhaps they should have given some notice and/or had a Test/Trial Period to work out any "Bugs" that are sure to show up! h34r:


 How do you know they didn't?



printman2000 said:


> While presenting the total cost is just fine for a lot of people, they should still be showing the room price SOMEWHERE. I certainly would not say showing the room price is irrelevant. The way it is now there is no way to know how much you are paying for a room!


They do show it on the very next screen.







I'm still not sure why it matters. What matters is the total cost of the trip, who cares how that cost is split between "room charge" and "rail fare"?


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## guest (Sep 15, 2013)

Removing refundability from low bucket fares without warning us first is a huge disappointment.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmmm! Looks like another Surprise!!!  from Amtrak to it's Best Customers! Perhaps they should have given some notice and/or had a Test/Trial Period to work out any "Bugs" that are sure to show up! h34r:
> ...


Ryan:Well, they must have done it in Secret h34r: since there was No Notice on Amtrak.com/ the AGR Site/Flyer Talk/train orders/OTOL etc. etc. And from the Posts I'm reading sounds like Frequent Riders are surprised and Don't like it !

Ive already seen lots of "Bugs" in the Test Fares like amamba used in her Post (for sure snagginga FC Acela Ride Cheaper than a Flexible Business Class Fare sounds like a "Bug" to me!) The Rest of your Post is Spot on!


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

City of Miami said:


> Up until today coach reserved seat tickets were fully refundable, i.e. it was only sleepers that had the refund fee.


It seems as though that's still the case. Reading further:



> Refundable Seats - Saver, Value and Flexible Fares
> 
> Coach class tickets sold as a Saver fare are non-refundable. Coach class tickets sold as Value and Flexible fares are fully refundable prior to train departure and a 10% refund fee applies after train departure.





City of Miami said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like the cost increase for a flexible fare is pretty significant, 20%-20% based on some quick browsing.
> ...


Yeah, I do agree there - I don't really see a compelling reason to book a flexible fare. Maybe there's a use case out there that it does make sense for.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 15, 2013)

I think, as someone else implied, the Saver price is the NEC's (and others?) 25% discount if booked 2+ weeks out. I just did a test and the Saver fare is not available for today.


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## jebr (Sep 15, 2013)

I like the _redesign_ for the most part...makes it easier to tell what the true price will be. Even includes my discounts automatically when I'm signed in. I wish it spelled out the options more for the rooms, but that could be fixed easily enough.

I don't see the point in the "flexible" bucket unless you're worse than me in terms of keeping coach reservations. The prices seem to be double (or more) and the only difference is that instead of a 90% refund you get a 100% refund. Both still have eVouchers, and the flexible fare seems to offer no further benefits. If it included something like meals, food voucher, maybe lounge access, or something like that, I could see it being useful and nice on some trips. But for a 10% difference in the refund amount? Not worth double the fare.


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## roadman3313 (Sep 15, 2013)

Looking at a CS fare for today, there are no Value Fares available, just flexible. Maybe closer if there are not many seats available you can only book a Flexible fare? The Flexible fare is at $113, which is about $12 higher than the previous high bucket fare which appears to be a $58-101 value fare range.

Maybe Value Fares (which appear to be the bucket fares we are used to) aren't always available so one must book a flexible fare if they would like a seat? It says there are only 2 seats left at that price...


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 15, 2013)

So maybe Flexible fares are only the high bucket fares? And that may be why Premium fares (on the NEC, at least) might be lower. I've read on AU that sometimes Acela's are cheaper than high bucket regionals if the regionals are selling out faster than the Acela's.


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## the_traveler (Sep 15, 2013)

I think that the "saver" fares are the "E" bucket (14 day advance purchase) fares.


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## afigg (Sep 15, 2013)

Even a booking on the NEC is now more complicated at first look with the different options of Saver, Value, Flexible, and Premium. I don't see that Flexible offers enough of a benefit with the full refund versus 10% fee over Value to make it worthwhile to most. My guess is that the idea is that corridor business travelers on an expense account who may want to change will select Flexible. Which will mean more revenue.

This is a step towards what the airlines do with multiple options and service levels, all carefully constructed to squeeze out additional ticket revenue from those willing to pay a little more.


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## jebr (Sep 15, 2013)

So, if there's value fares available, is there any reason to book a flexible fare? Or is the flexible fare just "high bucket" and they throw in refund ability after departure as a little bit of a difference to make it look better?


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## Blackwolf (Sep 15, 2013)

I feel this will be interesting to watch over the course of the next few months as the Holidays come and go (and so does Amtrak's peak ridership for the year.) I imagine that there will be considerable movement in the revenue management department when it comes to fares, finding just how much the market can bear. Yes, we've just witnessed a marked increase in base fares with this roll-out and I think we'll see them increase again (possibly by a substantial amount on some routes.) Will this price Amtrak out of some people's budgets? I say "Yes" with strong belief. And I think this is intentional by Amtrak as they run into capacity issues; the company is likely willing and driven to alienate and drive away some of their most "loyal" but lowest paying passengers in exchange for getting someone else who'll pay more for the same seat/accommodation.

Also, this change in the website makes it a whole lot less complicated for the non-savvy Amtrak passenger. It is much more in-line with an airline website now, as are the refund and pricing policies. Yes, a disadvantage for those of us who were used to the former setup and certainly more restrictive in some ways, but Amtrak is probably looking over our heads intentionally.

I'll reserve my opinion until things have settled out by January.


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## the_traveler (Sep 15, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think, as someone else implied, the Saver price is the NEC's (and others?) 25% discount if booked 2+ weeks out. I just did a test and the Saver fare is not available for today.





the_traveler said:


> I think that the "saver" fares are the "E" bucket (14 day advance purchase) fares.


A test booking showed that is what it is!


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## amamba (Sep 15, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> Stupidly I've been experimenting with my NARP discount on lines with 'Saver' fares that require the 2 week book ahead rule ect. Strangely you have to physically now remove your discount to get the saver option to appear (you have to start as an Adult). If you start with NARP you get the only more expensive discounted 'Value' fares, not just Saver.
> 
> I think this new option makes mostly sense once Amtrak iron outs the kinks. (such as displaying Saver options when you look up a trip with everyday discounts they can't be applied too)


This is a really interesting point. Once I logged into my amtrak.com account, I didn't see saver fares on ANY trains on the NEC - no matter what day I looked.

Once I logged out, then the saver fares were visible again.

that seems like a pretty big bug to me. Maybe I still want the E bucket fares because those are still cheaper than the AAA discount on the NEC.

So is the only difference between Value and Flexible fares the fact that they the flexible fares are refundable AFTER the train's departure? That is not something that I am willing to pay for.


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## DebMep (Sep 15, 2013)

Another AAA question? I set up a account on the Amtrak site, and played around with destinations and dates. How do I get 2 AAA discounts for myself and husband. The new web site shows 1 adult full fare and 1 adult AAA discount.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 15, 2013)

amamba said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> > Stupidly I've been experimenting with my NARP discount on lines with 'Saver' fares that require the 2 week book ahead rule ect. Strangely you have to physically now remove your discount to get the saver option to appear (you have to start as an Adult). If you start with NARP you get the only more expensive discounted 'Value' fares, not just Saver.
> ...


It appears that if you have a standard discount built into your Amtrak.com profile (AAA, senior, etc.), the new system assumes you want to use that discount. In the case of saver fares, those fares are not applicable for standard discounts, so the new system will not show the fares. Not a good assumption because (1) you might want to use the saver fare or (2) you could even be booking for someone else.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 15, 2013)

The new booking pages have a "swa.com" look and feel to them. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amtrak really wants to be an airline.


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## Shanghai (Sep 15, 2013)

I found the Senior selection and did a test booking on a trip we are taking next Tuesday (NYP to PHL & return BC) on 43 & 42,

I selected 2 senior and the price was exactly the same as when I booked the trip last week. I will take some practice, but

I'm happy at this time. Did our Anthony have anything to do with this change??


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## SarahZ (Sep 15, 2013)

DebMep said:


> Another AAA question? I set up a account on the Amtrak site, and played around with destinations and dates. How do I get 2 AAA discounts for myself and husband. The new web site shows 1 adult full fare and 1 adult AAA discount.


Strange. I just tried a fake booking, and it didn't give me the drop-downs for "discount type" either. I kind of rushed it, though, so I'll look closer the second time.

It also looks pretty wacky in Chrome, but I think that's a style sheet issue. I refuse to use IE, so I'll put up with the weird fonts and the buttons being misaligned.

They've expanded the rental/hotel suggestions on the next page. Irritating, but I can see how it would be helpful for travelers planning trips to Chicago, NYC, and other places they're unfamiliar with. It reminds me of the bundling on Travelocity and Expedia.


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## benjibear (Sep 15, 2013)

So is everyone in agreement that the "value" column is what the normal pricing was prior?

I think all these choices could confuse the new or occasional rider.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 15, 2013)

Didn't the previous site remember your discount status (AAA, senior, etc)? I had to change from regular to senior when creating a test reservation.

As I typically travel with one particular person, it would be nice if it would "remember" that other person's info...name, discount status, AGR number, etc. and include it if you state 2 passengers.

A while back I suggested via AGR, a way to link two AGR accounts...easier if gifting or transferring points or, just checking their point balance without having to log off as one person and then back on as the other!


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## Anderson (Sep 15, 2013)

Just a thought, but this is almost identical to VIA's system. For what it's worth, VIA has buckets on the Corridor as well (from what I can tell, at least...on a peak-hour train the "cheap" fare will often be higher than on an off-hour train, sometimes to the point that the cost of getting the "full fare" ticket was negligible and more than offset by their Preference point bonus...as Charlie and I found out this summer).

The biggest plus to this overhaul, IMHO, is that nobody gets forced into non-refundable tickets anymore. That was the biggest issue with the "E" tickets on the NEC: You couldn't opt _not_ to get the restricted 14-day fare, which is an issue if you've got arrangements that are at _all_ soft.

The biggest negative is the lack of any explanation from Amtrak either in advance or in concert with it.

All that being said, I'm happy: Stupid roomette tricks seem to be alive and well.

Edit: One other item of note: It seems that "value" fares can run out (check Tuesday's Meteor RVR-NYP), so this might be a "stealth re-bucketing" in some fashion.

Edit2: This may also allow them, eventually, to offer a refundable and a non-refundable room fare.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 15, 2013)

FrensicPic said:


> Didn't the previous site remember your discount status (AAA, senior, etc)? I had to change from regular to senior when creating a test reservation.
> 
> !


The problem with the new site is it won't show the Saver price if it uses your discount. The old way it would tell you, after you added a train to your cart, if the cost with the discount is higher than the already discounted ticket (eg the 25% off on NEC 14+ day advanced purchase).


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## Anderson (Sep 15, 2013)

Another obvervation: The availability of RVR-NYP "saver" fares is _exceedingly_ spotty. Usually you can get one on 66, but on the morning trains? Good luck...in early October, I'll either find 0, 1, or 2 of the 4 morning trains (often the 0600 and 0700 ones) with these fares available.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 15, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The new booking pages have a "swa.com" look and feel to them. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amtrak really wants to be an airline.


My thoughts EXACTLY. 

And yeah, from the limited poking around I've done, it seems that the 'flex' fares defy common sense. :blink:


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## amamba (Sep 15, 2013)

Ok I figured out how to get it to display the saver fare when looked in. In the box on the top left you have to click on the tab for "other discounts" and then change the pax to adult instead of AAA adult. Then it will display the saver fares. But that it annoying because then if you want to book the AAA fare you have to go BACK to that, change the pax type to AAA adult and then research.

They should really fix that.


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## printman2000 (Sep 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I'm still not sure why it matters. What matters is the total cost of the trip, who cares how that cost is split between "room charge" and "rail fare"?


Because when you are looking for low bucket rooms, it is much easier to see the room cost on the first screen.


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## Shanghai (Sep 15, 2013)

FrensicPic said:


> Didn't the previous site remember your discount status (AAA, senior, etc)? I had to change from regular to senior when creating a test reservation.


If you login to your account on the first screen and have identified yourself as a senior, you automatically get the

senior fare - but only for yourself. If you are traveling with a senior, you need to make the senior number as 2 or

for how many seniors will be traveling (including yourself).


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## Ryan (Sep 15, 2013)

printman2000 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still not sure why it matters. What matters is the total cost of the trip, who cares how that cost is split between "room charge" and "rail fare"?
> ...


Why can't you just look at the overall cost? Railfare is always going to be the same (unlike the old screen), so the info is still there, the numbers are just a little different.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 15, 2013)

Shanghai said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't the previous site remember your discount status (AAA, senior, etc)? I had to change from regular to senior when creating a test reservation.
> ...


I was logged on and, Senior is checked in my profile yet, the starting point is one person regular fare. Not only do I have to select senior and number of travelers, I have to remember to change regular to zero! If that is not done, you wind up with one of each for the trip.

And yes, I do know I have to enter that for a traveling companion which brings up my mention of being able to store a traveling companion's info as part of the main account. So I wouldn't have to enter it.


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## guest (Sep 15, 2013)

Anderson said:


> The biggest plus to this overhaul, IMHO, is that nobody gets forced into non-refundable tickets anymore. That was the biggest issue with the "E" tickets on the NEC: You couldn't opt _not_ to get the restricted 14-day fare, which is an issue if you've got arrangements that are at _all_ soft.


Problem is, a lot of the buckets that were refundable are now non-refundable. It's not just the "E" tickets anymore.


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## City of Miami (Sep 15, 2013)

City of Miami said:


> I checked a price last night (old system) and again this morning (new system) and the cost is ~5% higher. That trip was TOL-CVS sleeper senior Jan 13: $210.....now $221



I just realized that on this trip I mentioned earlier the new system automatically put me in business class for the NER portion of the trip - that accounts for the $15 increase. Using the 'change' button to toggle to 'coach seat' the price reverts to $205.....thus, NO OVERNIGHT PRICE INCREASE :hi: :wub:  
We will all spend some time adjusting to a new system.


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## City of Miami (Sep 15, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Perhaps if I knew what a "Premium" Fare was I might consider it.?


I think it probably just means Business Class, Jim.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 15, 2013)

How is this rationalized?

First, Amtrak says this:



> *Value Fares*
> 
> Value Fares are refundable with a 10% fee. Value Fare reservations can be canceled and modified for the full value of the ticket saved as an eVoucher that can be used for future Amtrak travel or as a money back refund after a 10% refund fee. The Value Fare is available on all trains or buses.


Then, on the same screen they say this:



> *Refundable Seats - Saver, Value and Flexible Fares*
> 
> Coach class tickets sold as a Saver fare are non-refundable. Coach class tickets sold as Value and Flexible fares are fully refundable prior to train departure and a 10% refund fee applies after train departure.


So, which is it? Are Value Fares 100% refundable prior to departure, or are Value Fares subject to a 10% refund fee?


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## Train2104 (Sep 15, 2013)

Some things I think Amtrak should do:

-The fares are supposed to display in ascending order. If saver > value, hide the saver fare even if it's available.

-If someone changes the premium options to nothing "premium", display the value fare.

-Change the matrix of checkboxes to include "refundable with fee", "refundable no fee", and "refundable after departure". Remove the rooms row.

This is my understanding on refunds based on Amtrak's convoluted and conflicting information...

Saver fares: before departure full refund to voucher, no cash refunds, no refunds after departure

Value fares: before departure full refund to voucher, 10% fee for cash refunds, no refunds after departure.

Flexible fares: No-fee refunds and vouchers before departure, 10% fee for cash refunds after departure

Premium accommodation charges: same as today

Premium railfare charges: ??

They need to make this into a table.

Also: Why are there two types of fares listed for PA Keystone travel? I thought the Keystones only had one flat fare for a given pair (excluding holiday periods)


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## boxcarsyix (Sep 15, 2013)

I think it included Value Seats as refundable after departure (10% fee)


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## gaspeamtrak (Sep 15, 2013)

atm79 said:


> montezume said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody know where to enter the ISIC or AAA discount? I'm not seeing it anywhere - _ -
> ...


Just went on the Amtrak website and had it for a minute then it disappeared!?????


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## guest (Sep 15, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > The new booking pages have a "swa.com" look and feel to them. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amtrak really wants to be an airline.
> ...


Saver = Wanna Get Away?

Heck, they even have A-list and A-List Preferred, just before AGR started Plus and Executive.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 15, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The new booking pages have a "swa.com" look and feel to them. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amtrak really wants to be an airline.


Well they still have a long way to go in that case. It's been over a decade since I had to bother calling anyone at Southwest Airlines simply because I can handle virtually everything at southwest.com. Doesn't matter if it's a revenue ticket or a points reward or a voucher or a credit or a coupon or a change or a cancellation or whatever. It's all handled through the website with no other contact required. If there's something the southwest.com website still cannot handle I haven't found it yet. To this day I still have to call Amtrak for most of my needs because their website is still far too limited to accomplish whatever I'm trying to do. Maybe a fully functional website is part of what allows Southwest Airlines to field millions of fewer phone calls and undercut Amtrak by hundreds of dollars per ticket?


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## jebr (Sep 15, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > The new booking pages have a "swa.com" look and feel to them. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amtrak really wants to be an airline.
> ...


What all can't the website do in terms of booking a reservation? Modifying a reservation can be an exercise in frustration, but that's a lot rarer than booking a reservation, and I doubt would make a huge difference in terms of cost per ticket. Most people buy their ticket and go without doing a whole lot.

Yes, Amtrak's ticketing system needs a makeover, but I'm curious what happens most of the time that requires a call to Amtrak to get it done. I haven't had that experience in terms of booking, and I don't modify my reservations too much (honestly, at this point it's easier to just refund my ticket and buy new. Since I buy coach, there's been no penalty up to this point.)


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## jebr (Sep 15, 2013)

Found this link on the upper-right hand side of the main Amtrak page. Seems to indicate value fares are now always subject to a 10% deduction for refunds.

I wonder if SmartFares will be integrated into the Saver fares...that would be nice. (Curious, though: are SmartFares eligible for an eVoucher if you cancel the ticket?)


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## amamba (Sep 15, 2013)

jebr said:


> Found this link on the upper-right hand side of the main Amtrak page. Seems to indicate value fares are now always subject to a 10% deduction for refunds.
> 
> I wonder if SmartFares will be integrated into the Saver fares...that would be nice. (Curious, though: are SmartFares eligible for an eVoucher if you cancel the ticket?)


What is frustrating is that link doesn't explain what the refund policy is for the premium fares.

For example, with the rules as of last week, business class on the NEC and FC on acela was fully refundable (no fee) up until departure, whereas the regular coach on the NEC and BC on acela had the 24 hour rule. So again it wouldn't make sense to book a "flexible fare" if the premium fare is cheaper.


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## Acela150 (Sep 16, 2013)

I can't believe that this took off to 4 pages in 12 hours or so.

Anywho..

The one thing I noticed doing a test booking is that AE fares from PHL-RTE LB is $157. High is $257. Then it has the FC seat listed as $276. This has me wondering, does that FC seat go up when the Buckets go up?? Same with BC on a NER, and so on.

Sorry if it's been brought up, but I really don't feel like going through 4 pages at 145am.


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## Anderson (Sep 16, 2013)

Yes, FC goes up when buckets go up. FC (and BC for Regionals) have been "whatever the prevailing bucket is plus the fixed FC accommodation charge".


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## diesteldorf (Sep 16, 2013)

On the regionals, it really appears that Business Class has gone up dramatically. Previoualy , the low bucket fare from WAS to BOS was around $76 and it was possible, if you booked early enough to add the Business Class upgrade for around $50 more--total $126.

Of course, since Business Class also had a bucket system, this was not always possible and Business Class could be higher than $126, even when the low bucket $76 fare was still available in Coach Class.

Now, it doesn't seem possible to get Business Class on a Regional from WAS to BOS for anything less than $151.

It just isn't worth it, especially when you don't know what type of Business Class car you are paying for.


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## Anderson (Sep 16, 2013)

One issue I see: "Mixed" reservations are slightly less-than-intuitive. Honestly, a PR/notice on the site with a guide would go a long way towards making this work better.


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## NorthShore (Sep 16, 2013)

It still lists fares distinctly for separate sections of long distance trains going to the same place rather than compiling all of that into one available fare quote. So much for simplifying for the average consumer on that front.


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## mignyc (Sep 16, 2013)

I am trying to buy a ticket and don't see the option to enter my AAA membership for the discount, so I called Amtrak. Holding time: 34 minutes.

Guess this new fare structure is driving their call center volume.


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## mignyc (Sep 16, 2013)

Oh, never mind... I read the thread and found the "other discounts" tab.


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## mignyc (Sep 16, 2013)

But the AAA discount doesn't show up.

Confused.


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## mignyc (Sep 16, 2013)

Ah.

I both

(1) added my AAA Number to my account, and

(2) planned the whole trip from the "other discounts" tab

And now the AAA fares show up. But I can't tell which change made it work.


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## guest (Sep 16, 2013)

AAA members (and other discounters) gonna be peeved when they realize the lowest NER fares are being hidden from them (when available) automatically. Having to flip back to "Adult" on every search is way annoying.


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## gaspeamtrak (Sep 16, 2013)

gaspeamtrak said:


> atm79 said:
> 
> 
> > montezume said:
> ...


It is there now. "other discounts"


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## SarahZ (Sep 16, 2013)

The "Other Discounts" tab is not intuitive at all. It never would have occurred to me to click on that if I hadn't read it here. I'm so used to entering that information on the Passenger screen or (on other websites) just before you click "Purchase". It makes so much more sense to have it at the end just like every other website in the entire world.

I understand that some people want to see the discounted fare before they start choosing trains and upgrades, but for the average bear, it's just... weird.

Also, I was pretty "rawr" when it took me forever to figure out that "Premium" is "business class". I kept looking for the upgrade under the regular columns and ending up picking a date waaaaaaaaaaaay in the future to get "business class" to show up. Now I get it.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 16, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Also, I was pretty "rawr" when it took me forever to figure out that "Premium" is "business class". I kept looking for the upgrade under the regular columns and ending up picking a date waaaaaaaaaaaay in the future to get "business class" to show up. Now I get it.


I wonder if Amtrak is going to start painting "Premium" over "Business" on its rolling stock which proclaims "Business Class".

jb


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## printman2000 (Sep 16, 2013)

Ryan said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Okay, an example...

I have three adults and one child going from Lamy to Washington DC on May 2, 2014 in two roomettes. This would be the Southwest Chief and the Capitol Limted. Total cost on that is $2194.50.

Now I know low bucket for a roomette on the SWC for a roomette on this is $250. There is now no way to know if I am getting low bucket on the SWC. In fact, I cannot even tell the price I am getting on either train. Is the Southwest Chief room price the cause for the high price or is the Capitol Limited room price the cause for the high fare? No way to tell.


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## amamba (Sep 16, 2013)

printman2000 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > printman2000 said:
> ...


Did you try to book it to the end? Is there a breakdown between trains when you get that far?


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## mignyc (Sep 16, 2013)

guest said:


> AAA members (and other discounters) gonna be peeved when they realize the lowest NER fares are being hidden from them (when available) automatically. Having to flip back to "Adult" on every search is way annoying.


Hm, what do you mean? How can I see what you're talking about?


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## guest (Sep 16, 2013)

Premium is probably more appropriate for NER. Calling it "business" has always been a stretch.


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## Ryan (Sep 16, 2013)

printman2000 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > printman2000 said:
> ...


That still doesn't explain why that info is important to you. There's nothing you can do to change it.
Looking at your trip details, if you go a day earlier you can get the same trip for $1824.50. Is it because the SWC is cheaper or the Cap? Why does it matter, it's not like you'll be able to do anything differently other than travel a different day. If there are multiple routes, the 'all in' price is displayed for each of them right there on the page for you to choose from.

I can see as a railfan trying to dig into the depths of Amtrak pricing and understand how pricing works why one may want to break things down in terms of rooms vs railfare and one train vs another. Since you can't really do anything with that info, I'm not sure why it matters, but whatever. On the other hand, for the vast majority of the traveling public, this is a huge improvement, since the correct 'all in' price is what you're presented on the search results page.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 16, 2013)

I can understand the utility of the "all in" price, and I think that the Save, Value, Flexible, and Premium columns make it have similar look and feel to current airline websites, which most people are much more accustomed to. However, I do think the distinction between Value and Flexible, while no different in policies today, don't portend well for the future. I think we may be headed for airline style restricted fares fares soon, based on this redesign.

The real problem I have is with the "other discounts" tab in the beginning. That is really not obvious, with the website coming up with "TICKETS" as open tab, most people won't notice the other tabs (I didn't). I think that part of it is not a good user experience design. Otherwise, while I liked the old way, I see the point of making it look more like an airline website. I also noticed that while the presentation differed, the fares themselves are about the same (although it looked like they may have done a small fare increase at the same time).


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## printman2000 (Sep 16, 2013)

Ryan said:


> That still doesn't explain why that info is important to you. There's nothing you can do to change it.
> Looking at your trip details, if you go a day earlier you can get the same trip for $1824.50. Is it because the SWC is cheaper or the Cap? Why does it matter, it's not like you'll be able to do anything differently other than travel a different day. If there are multiple routes, the 'all in' price is displayed for each of them right there on the page for you to choose from.
> 
> I can see as a railfan trying to dig into the depths of Amtrak pricing and understand how pricing works why one may want to break things down in terms of rooms vs railfare and one train vs another. Since you can't really do anything with that info, I'm not sure why it matters, but whatever. On the other hand, for the vast majority of the traveling public, this is a huge improvement, since the correct 'all in' price is what you're presented on the search results page.


Of course I cannot change it. But I would like to know how it might change. With just the whole trip cost, I don't know if the price might go down or if that is all low bucket and that will be the cheapest rate possible. If it showed me that the SWC roomette price was $415, then I would know there is a chance the price might come down.


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## Anderson (Sep 16, 2013)

Ryan said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Actually, if your trip isn't time-sensitive on one end but is on the other, with a difference _that_ big it might make sense to stay a day in Chicago under the right circumstances. $300 is nothing to sneeze at.

Edit: It might be time to _seriously _look into posting buckets for more than just the NEC, especially if we're looking at a more complex regime of fare rates coming into play.


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## daveyb99 (Sep 16, 2013)

Seems like a reasonable change. My complaint is that each room typle should have their own column, not have to be clicked through via the small "change" arrows.


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## SarahZ (Sep 16, 2013)

Printman - could you do each trip separately?

For example, when I check the price for the EB next March, the Value column (coach) says $174, and the Premium column (roomette) says $528. That tells me the roomette is $354.

Or wait... are they already discounting the rail fare instead of calculating it when you hit "Add to Cart"?

Ooh... they are... the price didn't change when I added it to my cart.

Is there a set discount on the rail fare when you add a room? If so, then it's still pretty easy to calculate the room charge.


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## SubwayNut (Sep 16, 2013)

No, there isn't a set discount when you add a room, the Railfare always drops to the lowest bucket.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 16, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> No, there isn't a set discount when you add a room, the Railfare always drops to the lowest bucket.


Lowest bucket...that's what I thought happened.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 16, 2013)

jebr said:


> What all can't the [amtrak.com] do in terms of booking a reservation? Modifying a reservation can be an exercise in frustration, but that's a lot rarer than booking a reservation, and I doubt would make a huge difference in terms of cost per ticket. Most people buy their ticket and go without doing a whole lot.


Last I checked Amtrak.com cannot change my room or my car or even tell me what room and car are being selected on my behalf. It cannot create or accept vouchers or credits. It cannot book awards in sleepers or across connections. If there's only one or two rooms left it often can't book them, either because it's showing phantom availability or because it can't figure out which rooms are actually free and when. It also can't list my upcoming trips with any accuracy. More recently it's having difficulty finding the lowest fare as well. Those examples are just off the top of my head based on my own experiences. Amtrak.com's ticketing system has improved over time, no doubt, but it's still far behind the likes of fully functional customer service portals such as Southwest.com.


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## tonys96 (Sep 16, 2013)

Ryan said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Can't change it for sure, but can change the pax options, as in maybe taking coach for one segment or the other and roomette for the remaining segment. Which segment has the best value? Can't tell easily, you have to scroll through all the possibilities on both segments to see if you can figure it out.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 17, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> How is this rationalized?
> 
> First, Amtrak says this:
> 
> ...


Fixed by Amtrak. Value Fares in reserved coach and Acela Business are 100% refundable up to 24 prior to departure, 90% refundable after.

That *AGR Insider* guy is great! :lol:


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## Debmep (Sep 17, 2013)

Finally figured everything out & am not a fan of the new "improved" site. Thanks, Sarah for the help link of a few days ago. I book our May trip this morning using our AAA discount. We will be leaving GRR to CHI, then on to NOL on the CONO in a roomette round trip. We got # 5 roomette both directions, which is fine. I was getting really paranoid as the roomette available numbers shown decreased by one each way for our dates. I didn't get low bucket fare for the roomettes but close enough, since we are leaving GRR on a Tuesday, then leaving NOL on Friday returning to GRR on Saturday.


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## boxcarsyix (Sep 17, 2013)

Found this on the rules and restrictions pop-up yesterday. I cannot find it today :help: 



> Refundable Seats - Saver, Value and Flexible Fares
> Coach class tickets sold as a Saver fare are non-refundable. Coach class tickets sold as Value and Flexible fares are fully refundable prior to train departure and a 10% refund fee applies after train departure.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 17, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> That *AGR Insider* guy is great! :lol:


True this!  ^_^


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## TinCan782 (Sep 17, 2013)

daveyb99 said:


> Seems like a reasonable change. My complaint is that each room typle should have their own column, not have to be clicked through via the small "change" arrows.


I agree with that observation. When I first tried it out, it appeared that only roomettes were available!


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## colobok (Sep 18, 2013)

So what is the difference between "Value" and "Flexible" rates?

The only difference I see that "Value" tickets have 10% refund fee within 24 hours before departure while "Flexible" tickets have 0% refund fee.

So who will be willing to buy "Flexible" tickets???


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## Anderson (Sep 19, 2013)

colobok said:


> So what is the difference between "Value" and "Flexible" rates?
> 
> The only difference I see that "Value" tickets have 10% refund fee within 24 hours before departure while "Flexible" tickets have 0% refund fee.
> 
> So who will be willing to buy "Flexible" tickets???


Three possible answers:

(1) The "Flexible" ticket is, in fact, the high bucket ticket. People will get shunted into it by virtue of the lower buckets running out.

(2) There is some suspicion that Amtrak may make the "Value" tickets have a higher refund penalty.

(3) This might also be an attempt to upsell folks into BC, which is a hair nicer and (IIRC) retains the better refund policy of the "Flexible" ticket.


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## guest (Sep 20, 2013)

I've read over the whole thread and am still confused. Is someone willing to sumarize, concisely, the differences between the 4 types of fares shown? Thanks


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## SarahZ (Sep 20, 2013)

guest said:


> I've read over the whole thread and am still confused. Is someone willing to sumarize, concisely, the differences between the 4 types of fares shown? Thanks


*Saver Fares:* These are really good, super-discounted deals (i.e. rare). They are non-refundable, but they will give you a voucher for that amount if you have to cancel. You can use that voucher toward a future trip. Think of these like last-minute airfare deals where seats are only $26. These fares are not available on all trains/buses.

*Value Fares:* If you cancel more than 24 hours in advance, it's fully refundable. If you cancel within 24 hours, there's a 10% refund fee. You can cancel and take the refund as a voucher if you want. These fares are available on all trains/buses.

*Flexible Fares: *Flexible Fares are 100% refundable without any refund fee. They can be canceled for a full refund of the ticket value or with the ticket value saved as a voucher. The Flexible Fare is available on most trains and buses. As such, these fares are a little bit higher because they don't have the refund fee.

*Premium Service: *These are your upgrades to business class and sleeper cars.

If you cancel a seat under Premium Service, the ticket is fully refundable as long as you cancel before the scheduled departure time. If you wait until after the departure time, a 10% fee applies.

If you cancel a room under Premium Service, you incur a 10% refund fee if it is 15 or more days before traveling. If canceled 14 days or fewer before the scheduled departure, you will not get a monetary refund, but they will give you a voucher.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 20, 2013)

:hi: Excellent job Sarah! Maybe you should be doing Amtrak's Blurbs in their Publications, Media and on the Web!


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 20, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> *Premium Service: *These are your upgrades to business class and sleeper cars.
> 
> If you cancel a room under Premium Service, you incur a 10% refund fee if it is 15 or more days before traveling. If canceled 14 days or fewer before the scheduled departure, you will not get a monetary refund, but they will give you a voucher.


Nice work. What about a voucher for this one if it is 15 or more days before traveling? Is there a refund fee?

jb


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## roadman3313 (Sep 20, 2013)

If a ticket is eligible for an E-Voucher, the E-Voucher should always be for the full value of the ticket. If it is for a refund back to the form of payment (cash, credit, etc...) then the 10% refund fee may apply in the scenarios explained above.


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## SarahZ (Sep 20, 2013)

Roadman is correct. You can take a voucher for 100% of the value.

Jim - I summarized the definitions from Amtrak.com. There's a little pop-up that's kind of hard to find. If you hover over the words "Saver", "Value", etc, it gives you a pop-up box, and that box has a link that says "Learn more about fare options..." Then you get a separate window with the definitions.

Thank you for the compliment, though. I used to be a copy writer; I really miss it.


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## the_traveler (Sep 20, 2013)

To somewhat clarify the "Saver" fare - these are the E-bucket fares on the NEC (I don't know if any other routes had them) that are 25% off if purchased 14 days or more in advance.


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## guest (Sep 20, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > I've read over the whole thread and am still confused. Is someone willing to sumarize, concisely, the differences between the 4 types of fares shown? Thanks
> ...


Thank you!


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 20, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> :hi: Excellent job Sarah! Maybe you should be doing Amtrak's Blurbs in their Publications, Media and on the Web!


I second this motion. :hi:

Seems to me like you could teach Amtrak more than a thing or two about 'communications!'


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## SarahZ (Sep 20, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > :hi: Excellent job Sarah! Maybe you should be doing Amtrak's Blurbs in their Publications, Media and on the Web!
> ...


:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I explain insurance policies, motor vehicle codes, and state law to people all day. Amtrak is easy mode compared to legalese. There are many days I would much rather work for Amtrak. ^_^


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## amamba (Sep 20, 2013)

Great job Sarah!

But I wouldn't say that the "saver" fares are rarely available.

They are available on most NEC regional trains if you book in advance.


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## the_traveler (Sep 20, 2013)

See my post #110 to find out what the saver fare is. If tickets are in the lowest bucket on the NEC regional, and it's 14 days or more in advance, there will be a saver fare shown. Otherwise, it will say "Not Available"!


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## SubwayNut (Sep 20, 2013)

The other corridor to offer them (so far, I only assume they will become standard for most trains, doubt I'll end up using them too much not because I don't mind eVouchers but I find it hard to plan my SD trips two weeks ahead) is Amtrak Cascades for a while it was just major endpoints I know now its between all destinations like the NE Regional.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 20, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> See my post #110 to find out what the saver fare is. If tickets are in the lowest bucket on the NEC regional, and it's 14 days or more in advance, there will be a saver fare shown. Otherwise, it will say "Not Available"!


It will also not show if the person has AAA or other discount associated with their account.


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## CHamilton (Sep 20, 2013)

The Cascades now has a Saver option, something I don't think we've had before. But only for those without other discounts. Here's what I see when I'm not logged in.




And here's what I see when I'm logged in.




Amtrak partners like AAA and NARP are not going to be happy that their member "discounts" are actually more expensive than what a non-member is offered. And Premium (Business Class) seats are cheaper than Flexible fares??


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## SubwayNut (Sep 20, 2013)

That's been happening in the Northeast for a few years. (in the old booking system if you selected a NARP ect. discount on the old screen that said passenger type, on a discounted fare it would flash an error message that your discount wasn't valid and reselect Adult. )

I did a quick search through my old Amtrak e-mails and got an e-mail on May 14, 2013 announcing the new Book Early and Save 25% fares anywhere on the Cascades route.

I know I got one before probably around the beginning of the new year (deleted that one) that the 25% early and save fares were avalible between select city pairs like Portland and Seattle only with maybe Tukwila also included.


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## SarahZ (Sep 21, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> *Saver Fares:* These are really good, super-discounted deals (i.e. rare if you don't live along the Northeast Corridor (NEC)). They are non-refundable, but they will give you a voucher for that amount if you have to cancel. You can use that voucher toward a future trip. Think of these like last-minute airfare deals where seats are only $26. These fares are not available on all trains/buses.
> 
> *Value Fares:* If you cancel more than 24 hours in advance, it's fully refundable. If you cancel within 24 hours, there's a 10% refund fee. You can cancel and take the refund as a voucher if you want. These fares are available on all trains/buses.
> 
> ...


Fixed.


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## Train2104 (Sep 21, 2013)

Even with that clear description there are still some confusions with the value fare:

If I cancel more than 24 hours beforehand and want a refund (not voucher) do I have to pay a 10% fee?

If I cancel less than 24 hours beforehand and want a voucher, do I pay a 10% fee?

If I cancel after departure (no-show) do I get anything?


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## roadman3313 (Sep 21, 2013)

Putting that excellent description by Sarah Z in another form (for poster above)...

*Saver:*

_Refund_: Not Allowed

_Voucher_: Full Value

*Value:*

_Refund_: 24+ Hours before Departure = Full Value

Less than 24 Hours = Value - 10% Fee

_NOTE: _Unreserved ticket refunds will be = Value - 10% Fee at all times

_Voucher_: Full Value

*Flexible:*

_Refund_: Full Value

_Voucher_: Full Value

*Premium:*

Sleeper Room

_Refund:_ 15+ Days before Scheduled Departure = Value - 10% Fee

Less than 15 Days = Not Allowed

_Voucher: _Before Actual Departure = Full Value

After Actual Departure = Not Allowed

Acela First Class, non-Acela Business Class

_Refund: _Prior to Scheduled Departure = Full Value

After Scheduled Departure = Value - 10% Fee

_Voucher: _Full Value

If there are no time restrictions listed (ex. _Voucher:_ Full Value) it is assumed that the option is available anytime before or after actual departure. Generally tickets that are not used (or recorded as used) are cancelled and the value is placed onto an E-Voucher a few hours after departure with the exception of Sleeper Room tickets which have no value after the actual departure of the train.

_NOTE: _Unreserved tickets are valid for one year from the date listed on the ticket (generally purchase date) and are not automatically transferred to an E-Voucher. Refunds on Unreserved tickets will always be subject to a 10% fee. E-Vouchers will still be for the full value. Unreserved tickets are generally only available under the Value fare category.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 21, 2013)

I think taking Sarah Z's and roadman3313's most excellent summaries and pinning them in the 'new users' section would be very helpful as points of reference.

Just saying.... -_-

*********************************​
On a related but different note:

One thing Amtrak should do, since I have little doubt they would say the recent 'upgrade' is to make the site more 'user friendly' and not, cough cough, for 'revenue enhancement' cough, cough, would be to restore what the old system did for NARP and AAA discounts, as SubwayNut, wrote about. Otherwise if one has either discount they will now need to check fares twice on the NEC or the Cascades to make sure thet are getting the best price, and that is most certainly *n**ot* user friendly and *obviously* about revenue enhancement. 

Hopefully *Amtrak* will *tweek this 'upgrade!'* :excl:


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 21, 2013)

Charlie, as was discussed earlier, if you log in and don't see the saver fare you need to go ??to the discount tab?? and unselect the discount that is automatically selected base on your profile.

Unfortunately that is not intuitive.

Has anyone asked over on FlyerTalk about getting this "fixed". Maybe just replace the "Not Available" with "Not Available With xxxx. Go to x to unselect xxxx to see the Saver prices"


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## TinCan782 (Sep 21, 2013)

I mentioned in an earlier post that even though my profile indicates "Senior", the default passenger selection is 1 "Adult". If I change "Senior" to 1 passenger, "Regular" remains at one...one must remember to change that to zero if that's the case with your travel. I ran a couple of reservation scenarios and noted some interesting behavior and perhaps some caution when making reservations online.


If I change the passenger selection to 1 Adult and 1 Senior, my reservation ends up being 2 seniors!
If I change the passenger selection to 2 Adults and 0 Senior, my reservation ends up being 1 Adult and 1 senior!
In the attached screenshot, *the information in the three highlighted areas all differ*. The screenshot was captured after adding the outbound trip to my cart but, before the return trip was selected. The passenger and ticket information in the "Your Itinerary" box will be the result when I click through passenger information. Google Chrome was used for this test.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 21, 2013)

The "Value Fare" description is not completely correct. The description is true for reserved coach and Acela Business. Unreserved coach sold as "Value Fare" is subject to the 10% refund fee at from the time of purchase.


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## roadman3313 (Sep 21, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The "Value Fare" description is not completely correct. The description is true for reserved coach and Acela Business. Unreserved coach sold as "Value Fare" is subject to the 10% refund fee at from the time of purchase.


Can you let me know where that is? I was trying to find that description as that historically was the policy, however the value fare doesn't mention a difference between Reserved and Unreserved anymore.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 21, 2013)

roadman3313 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > The "Value Fare" description is not completely correct. The description is true for reserved coach and Acela Business. Unreserved coach sold as "Value Fare" is subject to the 10% refund fee at from the time of purchase.
> ...


Updated Refund and Exchange Policy page. Fourth bullet under Refund Calculations.


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## SarahZ (Sep 21, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The "Value Fare" description is not completely correct. The description is true for reserved coach and Acela Business. Unreserved coach sold as "Value Fare" is subject to the 10% refund fee at from the time of purchase.


My apologies. I took the fare descriptions directly from Amtrak.com and only tweaked the wording to make it easier to read. I left all of the refund information as-is. I didn't think it necessary to go to the Refunds page as well. I figured whoever wrote the original descriptions knew what they were talking about. -_-


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## PRR 60 (Sep 21, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > The "Value Fare" description is not completely correct. The description is true for reserved coach and Acela Business. Unreserved coach sold as "Value Fare" is subject to the 10% refund fee at from the time of purchase.
> ...


No apology needed. Amtrak has a difficult time clearly stating terms and conditions. This example is no exception.


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## amamba (Sep 21, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Has anyone asked over on FlyerTalk about getting this "fixed".


Yes.


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## the_traveler (Sep 21, 2013)

I found the easiest way to get the "Value Fare" to show without going thru "the moves" is just enter "from" and "to" without logging in. The "Saver Fare" will show. Chose it and then when you log in to reserve, the fare remains!

I just made 2 reservations this way in the last few minutes.


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## roadman3313 (Sep 21, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> roadman3313 said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


Thank you! Updated in previous post as well


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## Hanno (Sep 21, 2013)

printman2000 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Room prices are irrelevant. What matters is "how much is this trip going to cost me?".
> ...


I'm having trouble logging on to Amsnag. I tried using the address shown above but get the following error, "Fatal error: Call to undefined function mysqli_connect() in /home/biketra1/public_html/common/mysqli.php on line 11". Any suggestions would be helpful!


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## Bus Nut (Sep 22, 2013)

They should just show the Saver fare next to the NARP or AAA discounted Value fares. It means when they decided how their database and frontend would work they made a decision to hide undiscounted fares when they should just make it so that the Saver fare discount is 0% or 1.00*Saver fare is your NARP Saver fare. Since Saver fare is sold under different terms there really isn't any contradiction.

This is a really horrible user interface problem that ought to have been remedied years ago. At least now it's very clear that Saver fares don't have the same refund policy as other fares.

Does anybody know if Amtrak California is going to join Cascades and NER in offering Saver fares?


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## roadman3313 (Sep 22, 2013)

Bus Nut said:


> They should just show the Saver fare next to the NARP or AAA discounted Value fares. It means when they decided how their database and frontend would work they made a decision to hide undiscounted fares when they should just make it so that the Saver fare discount is 0% or 1.00*Saver fare is your NARP Saver fare. Since Saver fare is sold under different terms there really isn't any contradiction.
> 
> This is a really horrible user interface problem that ought to have been remedied years ago. At least now it's very clear that Saver fares don't have the same refund policy as other fares.
> 
> Does anybody know if Amtrak California is going to join Cascades and NER in offering Saver fares?


For the Capitol Corridor it would depend on if the CCJPA decides to offer the fares as they set the fare matrix for the route (the table is available on their website). They have been piloting print out seat checks based on E-Ticketing scans as well and are going to pilot multi-ride E-Tickets as well so they tend to have projects and fares that don't conform to the Norm.

As the San Joaquin's and Pacific Surfliner's are also branching off to local control in their respective service areas it could be a possibility in the future. Amtrak California is basically now turning into three separate routes administered by three separate local agencies within California. It still is Amtrak California but the fares and policies will be set on a more local level now so we may see one route have Saver fares while the other two do not.

San Joaquin's do often have "Smart Fares" so it would be nice if these were just turned into Saver Fares or at least displayed on the main page as a Saver fare if is it valid on a particular day of the week and between certain stops.


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## AlanB (Sep 22, 2013)

Shanghai said:


> Did our Anthony have anything to do with this change??


He hasn't worked in the IT department in well over a year now; so no, he had nothing to do with it. And those who've been paying attention to recent posts on the net should be able to figure out what he's been working on.


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## roadman3313 (Sep 22, 2013)

Question... I was looking up a rail fares for a trip I was thinking of taking and the Roomette and Bedroom prices changed when I changed the number of people travelling.

As an example...

1 traveler in 1 room

Rail Fare: $137

Roomette: $288

Bedroom: $614

2 travelers sharing 1 room

Rail Fare: $274

Roomette $519

Bedroom: $955

Same starting and ending points and dates.

I understand that the Rail fare should go up for the second traveler but in the past the accommodation (room) charge did not. The check-out page specified 1 (or 2 adults) and 1 room. Is there a reason the Roomette and Bedroom prices would go up for adding a traveler or was I missing something before?

In this scenario could 1 traveler be booked and another added as an open sleeper so they would just pay the rail fare? I'm used to the accommodation charge staying the same so I was wondering if anyone else noticed this?


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## TinCan782 (Sep 22, 2013)

roadman3313 said:


> Question... I was looking up a rail fares for a trip I was thinking of taking and the Roomette and Bedroom prices changed when I changed the number of people travelling.
> 
> As an example...
> 
> ...


Interesting...it was my understanding as well that the accommodation charge should stay the same. As I mentioned in my previous post regarding number and class of passengers, looks like we should pay attention to what the website is doing before finalizing a transaction.

I just tried it and the accommodation charge stayed the same for 1 vs 2 passengers. Of course, the total fare increased. Add the room to your "cart" and look at that.


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## boxcarsyix (Sep 22, 2013)

I tried a trip on the SWC way out in the future. The total cost increase for 2 people seemed to be about the same as the Value Fare. I also tried my paid for trip on the CZ in May. The cost was the same as I paid a couple of months ago. I wonder if the cost for the second person depends on whether the 2 Value Fares are available.


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## roadman3313 (Sep 23, 2013)

Interesting. The trip I looked up was from DEN to RNO sometime this upcoming week. I checked another day and the price was less from DEN to EMY than DEN to RNO. I have seen this before (lower prices for further destination pairs) but I haven't seen the accommodation charge go up.

The rail fare was twice the "Value" fare for two people which is what I expected. The accommodation (room) charge went up by an uneven amount which is what puzzled me. I'm glad it at least looks like this might be an exception rather than the new norm! It would definitely decrease the value of having a room with 2 persons vs. 1 individual.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 23, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > Did our Anthony have anything to do with this change??
> ...


A detective-mystery! I love it.


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## winterskigirl (Sep 23, 2013)

When I try logging into Amsnag I'm getting the following error,

"Fatal error: Call to undefined function mysqli_connect() in /home/biketra1/public_html/common/mysqli.php on line 11"

I'm using http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php

Any idea when this might be fixed?


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 23, 2013)

It apparently went down a few days ago. I did PM the owner of the site. He has not responded. Hope he's on an Internet-free vacation rather than something "bad".


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 23, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> It apparently went down a few days ago. I did PM the owner of the site. He has not responded. Hope he's on an Internet-free vacation rather than something "bad".


Exactly. He IS on an internet-free vacation. Biking and train riding. Sounds grand.

jb


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 23, 2013)

John Bobinyec said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > It apparently went down a few days ago. I did PM the owner of the site. He has not responded. Hope he's on an Internet-free vacation rather than something "bad".
> ...


 That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.


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## Ryan (Sep 23, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Shanghai said:
> ...


You should have been in chat last night, you'd know the story!
There's also exactly 1 post on the site in a random thread that has the answer. h34r:


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 23, 2013)

Ryan said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Oh, man! :help:


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## Ryan (Sep 23, 2013)

You may also find a hint of you browse around the AGR section of FlyerTalk.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 23, 2013)

Ryan said:


> ...a hint...


Thank You! :hi: Thank You! :hi: Thank You! :hi:


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## PRR 60 (Sep 23, 2013)

There is a topic at Flyertalk which suggests there is a bug in the new interface that sometimes bumps up the cost of the sleeper rooms if more than one person is on the reservations. For example:

_16OCT - PHL-ORL #91_

One person

Rail fare $132

Roomette $396

Two people

Rail fare $264 (correct)

Roomette $567 (wrong)

Beware with on-line bookings for more than one person until this glitch is corrected


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## roadman3313 (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm hoping that is just a glitch. Only thing I found is it may be using passengers, rather than physical rooms when adjusting buckets on rooms.

For example, when I was attempting to make a booking I noticed it said 1 Room left at this price. When I had 1 passenger it stayed at the lower bucket. When I made it for 2 passengers, but still just 1 room, the room price went up. Hopefully that's it and it is just a glitch.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 23, 2013)

That's a lot to worry about when you're just trying to find a good price on a room. Oy.


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## SarahZ (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm just going to bang my head against the wall, dust some sage on my keyboard, light some candles, and hope I get the correct price until they work out some of the flaws.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 23, 2013)

Though I much prefer to do things online, I guess if you think the price is wrong (until they fix the glitch), you could always call to book it.


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## AlanB (Sep 23, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The Davy Crockett said:
> ...


The critical post can be found here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/56730-new-la-waiting-room/page-3


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## MiRider (Sep 23, 2013)

Anthony is ...

Anthony Rizos
Program Manager, Loyalty Marketing
Amtrak
Washington, D.C.

AKA - AGR Insider


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## Ryan (Sep 23, 2013)

Thank you, CAPT Obvious.


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## AlanB (Sep 23, 2013)

MiRider said:


> Anthony is ...
> 
> Anthony Rizos[/size]
> 
> ...


Yup, you got it! 

AGR Insider is our very own Anthony; has been for a while now.


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 23, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Though I much prefer to do things online, I guess if you think the price is wrong (until they fix the glitch), you could always call to book it.


Isn't there an extra charge added to the price of the ticket if you call an agent rather than "doing it yourself"?

jb


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## SarahZ (Sep 23, 2013)

John Bobinyec said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Though I much prefer to do things online, I guess if you think the price is wrong (until they fix the glitch), you could always call to book it.
> ...


Nope.


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## AlanB (Sep 23, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...


At least not yet. There has been talk that it may be coming however. I've heard nothing official yet; so I stress that for right now it is just talk.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 23, 2013)

Hopefully this wont apply to AGR where you have to talk with an Agent to Book a Sleeper??? :help: (or will we be able to Book Sleepers On-Line with AGR Awards?) Is this a Question for AGR Insider on Flyer Talk? (who we all know and like!  )


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## AlanB (Sep 23, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Hopefully this wont apply to AGR where you have to talk with an Agent to Book a Sleeper??? :help: (or will we be able to Book Sleepers On-Line with AGR Awards?) Is this a Question for AGR Insider on Flyer Talk? (who we all know and like!  )


No, AGR is totally separate from Amtrak in this regard. Especially since right now you can't book most reservations without speaking to an agent.


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## mjaynes288 (Sep 23, 2013)

When I try to book a seat using the passengers with disabilities link the saver fares disappear. I hate calling because half the time the reservation ends up wrong. Usually my fault. I would be very put out if I had to pay for the "privilege" of booking by phone. A whole bunch of disability accomodations require talking to an agent either on the phone or in person.


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## Nathanael (Sep 23, 2013)

It is still true that more complex disability accomodations ("yes, she is deaf AND in a wheelchair") require calling. It is not acceptable (or, in fact, legal) to charge a fee for such bookings.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 24, 2013)

I can see, and am resigned to, the day when Amtrak charges for booking through an agent. That would be okay... ...as long as the reservation system actually WORKS like to should.

On a completely different note: :hi: Congratulations Anthony! :hi: You certainly deserve it!


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## Alice (Sep 24, 2013)

mjaynes288 said:


> When I try to book a seat using the passengers with disabilities link the saver fares disappear. I hate calling because half the time the reservation ends up wrong. Usually my fault. I would be very put out if I had to pay for the "privilege" of booking by phone. A whole bunch of disability accomodations require talking to an agent either on the phone or in person.


That is because the disability fare includes a discount, and you can't combine discounts. If you need wheelchair space, Amtrak requires you to take the disabled rate, so you can't get the other special deals.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 24, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I can see, and am resigned to, the day when Amtrak charges for booking through an agent. That would be okay... ...as long as the reservation system actually WORKS like to should.


Same here. I have no problem with charging for live support so long as it's a CHOICE to use the web site or the reservations desk. If calling is the only way to get something done then I believe those specific tasks which require calls should not incur a fee. However, if you look at the airline side of the market many airlines levy service fees you have little or no chance of avoiding regardless of how you approach them.


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## FreeskierInVT (Sep 24, 2013)

Has there been any change to the multi-city fares? I was looking at NYP-BAL with a couple hour stopover in PHL but the multi-city page was going to charge me for two separate fares ($49 from NYP-PHL and $39 for PHL-BAL), and I was looking at fares in mid November which shouldn't already have high buckets.


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## Beaches (Sep 25, 2013)

According to the new version if I want to go to New Orleans from Kansas City via a Chicago connection and I want a sleeper for the NOLA segment, now I have to have (and pay for) a sleeper on the Chicago segment as well. Am I looking at this wrong? The old version allowed you to choose for each segment whether you wanted the sleeper or not and only pay for that segment.


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

You're looking at it wrong, you can select coach for an individual leg:


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## roadman3313 (Sep 25, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> There is a topic at Flyertalk which suggests there is a bug in the new interface that sometimes bumps up the cost of the sleeper rooms if more than one person is on the reservations. For example:
> 
> _16OCT - PHL-ORL #91_
> 
> ...


I finalized my travel plans and decided to call Amtrak to make the sleeper booking as I decided to have 3 people in a bedroom for day use. The price for the bedroom they sold me was lower than the price available online for 1 person. Apparently the online price was at the next higher bucket for some reason while the agent still had the low bucket price available. I thought maybe someone else booked a room but the agent checked the price after I booked my room and the going rate was still at the low bucket on her screen (if I wanted another room) while online the price was now two buckets higher.

Something doesn't seem to be matching up as far as I can tell unless I'm missing something?


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## SubwayNut (Sep 25, 2013)

Beaches said:


> According to the new version if I want to go to New Orleans from Kansas City via a Chicago connection and I want a sleeper for the NOLA segment, now I have to have (and pay for) a sleeper on the Chicago segment as well. Am I looking at this wrong? The old version allowed you to choose for each segment whether you wanted the sleeper or not and only pay for that segment.


Hit the little triangles by Change to School through the options, by default it assumes you want premium travel for your entire trip when making a connection.


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## youtrack (Dec 5, 2013)

i am planing to take saver amtrak ticket but i was wondering if it was possible to change my departure date or time with a saver ticket


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## SubwayNut (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes! Yes!

The only thing about the Saver ticket is that the funds you have for it are completely non-refundable although they can all be applied for any future travel. You do though have to pay the prevailing fare when you rebook, your not guaranteed the Saver fare. The Saver fares (I believe) require a two-week advanced purchase and any rebookings will have to be in this timeframe to other trains that have Saver fares available.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 5, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> Yes! Yes!
> 
> The only thing about the Saver ticket is that the funds you have for it are completely non-refundable although they can all be applied for any future travel. You do though have to pay the prevailing fare when you rebook, your not guaranteed the Saver fare. The Saver fares (I believe) require a two-week advanced purchase and any rebookings will have to be in this timeframe to other trains that have Saver fares available.


I don't believe that eVoucher funds from a cancelled saver booking are required to be used with another saver fare. The funds can be used toward any fare, but the original non-refundable status remains.

For example, if cancelled saver fare funds in an eVoucher are used to buy a value fare (normally refundable up to one day prior to travel), if that reservation is later cancelled the funds can only be returned to an eVoucher. The funds cannot be refunded.


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