# Oldest Passenger Equipment in Regular Use



## Anderson (Oct 2, 2013)

I know about the situation with the Heritage cars on Amtrak, the Budds in Canada, etc. I'm just wondering where the oldest cars in regular (i.e. non-excursion, non-tourist railroad) service are? I'm both wondering about intercity cars and commuter cars.

I'll also take the oldest stuff in regular "tourist" service (i.e. GCRR equipment), but in those cases I'd put a qualifier of close-to-daily use (i.e. daily-when-not-in-the-shop).


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 2, 2013)

If not Limited to North America, I would think that Peru might be in the running Cliff! Even though Tourists do ride the Train to Machu Picchu, it is always filled with Native Peruvians that use it to get to Market in the Towns and Cities from the Villages! I don't know how old the Equipment is but the Pictures Ive seen, (I haven't ridden any Peruvian Trains) and the People Ive talked to that took it, make it sound like the Equipment is from the early 1900s including the Steam Engines that Chug through the Andes!

If Mexico still had passenger Trains (discounting the First Class Copper Canyon and Tequila Express which are Tourist Trains), Id think they also would have been in the Running! The Second Class "Chicken Train"(which I Have been on!) that the Indians ride on this Line between Chihuaha City and Los Mochos is Ancient, but not as old as Perus Trains! Back in the Olden Days I rode Trains in Mexico that had Cars from the 1900s that Pancho Villa and the other Civil War Bandits and War Loads used to move Troops, Horses and Supplies around Mexico during the Revolution!


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## GG-1 (Oct 2, 2013)

When I saw this thread I was afraid it was about us, as riders.

Aloha


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 3, 2013)

Metra is still using former CB&Q gallery cars built in the early 1950's.


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## GG-1 (Oct 3, 2013)

Aloha

What are you considering "regular use"? Two of the cars in the Nevada Southern RR Museum are over 100 YEARS OLD.


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## PerRock (Oct 3, 2013)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> What are you considering "regular use"? Two of the cars in the Nevada Southern RR Museum are over 100 YEARS OLD.





Anderson said:


> (i.e. non-excursion, non-tourist railroad
> 
> I'll also take the oldest stuff in regular "tourist" service (i.e. GCRR equipment), but in those cases I'd put a qualifier of close-to-daily use (i.e. daily-when-not-in-the-shop).


A RR Museum would be tourist. So no not what he's looking for.

I might look into what China, India, and some developing countries are using. There could be some old hand-me-downs there.

I think the old Budd Gallery cars are probably the oldest in the states

peter


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## GG-1 (Oct 3, 2013)

PerRock said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aloha
> ...


Aloha

Serves me right for not going back to the original past when I commented on the museum equiptment.


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## cirdan (Oct 4, 2013)

Lisboa, Portugal, uses streetcars that date to the early 1900s.

The green cars in New Orleans are Perley Thomas cars from the 1920s.

Until very recently, Buenos Aires, Argentina, was using metro trains from the 1910s and 1920s.

Milano, Italy, still uses Peter Witt cars from the 1920s. Some of these were sold to San Francisco, but Milano still has about 60 active cars.

All of these are cars seeing regular everyday service and are not parts of museums of primarily intended as a tourist attraction, although they do of course attract tourists.

I am not sure whether the Darjeeling toy train still serves local traffic or whether it is run purely for tourists these days.


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## FriskyFL (Oct 5, 2013)

Doesn't San Francisco MUNI run a set of 1920s era streetcars?


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## CHamilton (Oct 5, 2013)

FriskyFL said:


> Doesn't San Francisco MUNI run a set of 1920s era streetcars?


Yes. Here are some pictures.


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## PerRock (Oct 5, 2013)

I forget about streetcars... New Orleans has some from the 20s as well.

peter


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## tp49 (Oct 5, 2013)

Istanbul has some very old streetcars as well. Rode on them when I was there in the spring.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 5, 2013)

I believe some of the cable cars in SF are pretty old.

Here is a roster from Market Street Railway. Wish they listed actual build dates for all the cars.

I also believe all have been extensively rebuilt and/or restored.


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## railiner (Oct 7, 2013)

Okay, this may be 'stretching it' a bit, but when considering oldest passenger equipment, how about Pittsburgh's two surviving funicular railway's, the Monongahela, and Duquense Inclines. They date back to 1870 and 1877, respectively, although I don't know if the cars themselves are that old......


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2013)

The Peru trains are operated and advertised as tourist operations, even though locals take them.

The MUNI "Market Street Railway" F line is deliberately a tourist operation.

New Orleans, Lisboa, and Milano are, however, examples of systems which are using antique streetcars in regular service, not as a tourist operation. So I think they win.

The Inclines in Pittsburgh are indeed using original designs (though the cars have been repeatedly repaired/upgraded/rebuilt). This is actually quite common with funiculars (and also aerial trams), because they need custom cars designed specifically for the specific railway; there's no benefit from ordering new if you need completely custom work anyway. As such I'm not sure they count. They usually have no original materials by now. They're "original" only because they've never been thrown out and replaced wholesale. It's like "My grandfather's axe -- it's had five new heads and five new handles, but it's the same axe!". And of course they're not exactly normal railways. I would call them the oldest *designs* of rail-mounted cars in non-tourist use, however.

Now, if we're talking strictly mainline or intercity rail, VIA Rail is arguably running the oldest passenger equipment in the world in non-tourist, non-museum service. But question: is VIA Rail really running intercity rail with those old Budds, or are they actually running a tourist operation? The advertising leads one to wonder.

In short, definitional issues strike immediately -- it really depends on how you define your question.

With regard to "mainline" rail as opposed to streetcars or funiculars, one point to think about is that pretty much every country has disallowed wood-bodied cars on the main lines (with exception sometimes for special tourist or museum operations). This eliminated a lot of the older cars and acts as a sort of "hard cutoff" for the oldest equipment which you'll see in regular intercity service. Wood-bodied cars were removed from urban subways and elevateds by regulation in most places as well. Streetcars often lack this restriction, meaning that the surviving streetcars may be much older.


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## jis (Oct 11, 2013)

The oldest still operating pretty regularly B Class Steam Engines on the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway date back to 1889. Only 12 remain in operating condition.


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## Nathanael (Oct 11, 2013)

Anderson said:


> I'll also take the oldest stuff in regular "tourist" service (i.e. GCRR equipment), but in those cases I'd put a qualifier of close-to-daily use (i.e. daily-when-not-in-the-shop).


This is a different question. Some museum / heritage railway operations are running some seriously antique stuff on a regular basis. The Bluebell Railway in England is running a car from 1880 on a regular basis (obviously, it was disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up, but there's a lot of original material in it). http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/661.html

A lot of the oldest cars in the US are kept on static exhibit, not running. I'm not sure whether there are any pre-1880 cars which are actually run.

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2625&view=print

FWIW, India and China were running *very* old stuff, including wood-bodied cars, as late as the 1980s, but almost all of this was retired in the 1990s/2000s. They may well have their own railway museums with operational wood-bodied cars, though....


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## jis (Oct 11, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> FWIW, India and China were running *very* old stuff, including wood-bodied cars, as late as the 1980s, but almost all of this was retired in the 1990s/2000s. They may well have their own railway museums with operational wood-bodied cars, though....


I would recommend the National Railway Museum in Chankyapuri, New Delhi for anyone interested in some really old and some really weird stuff in operating condition. The meticulous preservation of Railway history in that museum is the result of the tireless efforts of people like Mr. Mike Satow and others.
One of the first steam engines to ever operate in India, the Fairy Queen dating back to 1855, has been restored to operating condition, and is used for hauling a tourist train. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Queen_(locomotive)


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## Long Train Runnin' (Oct 11, 2013)

One example comes to mind assuming we are talking about including Tourist Railroads. The Pine Creek Railroad in New Jersey operates a CNJ Caboose dating back to 1872 which was originally a box car that in 1901 was converted into a Caboose. My understanding is its the 6th oldest operating railcar in North America. Obviously, its now converted to narrow gauge, but you can take a ride in just about every weekend.


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## Texan Eagle (Oct 13, 2013)

PerRock said:


> I might look into what China, India, and some developing countries are using. There could be some old hand-me-downs there.


You'd be surprised but in India, on the mainlines you'd be hard pressed to find any rolling stock that's over 25 years old, thanks to dedicated coach factories churning out new rolling stock 24/7/365 year after year, and AFAIK literally nothing currently operating is hand-me-down from another country.

As *jis* mentioned, Darjeeling Himalayan Railway has some operating locomotives from 19th century, but those are there on purpose, for the heritage tourist attraction.

There isn't much "Forced to use old equipment because nothing new is available" stuff on Indian Railways


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## cirdan (Oct 14, 2013)

jis said:


> The oldest still operating pretty regularly B Class Steam Engines on the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway date back to 1889. Only 12 remain in operating condition.


 Does the Darjeeling Railway still count as a proper railway, or is it more a tourist operation these days?

From what I've heard Nilgiri is purely a tourist operation these days as the high fares practically crowd locals out. Furthermore, there is a parallel bus service that is both cheaper and faster. I don't have any reliable information on the Darjeeling line though.


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## jis (Oct 14, 2013)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The oldest still operating pretty regularly B Class Steam Engines on the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway date back to 1889. Only 12 remain in operating condition.
> ...


Darjeeling, when it is operating, has both regular service and exclusive tourist service. The B Class engines are used only in tourist operations these days I think. The regular trains are all diesel hauled.
For the regular service you just buy a regular ticket and ride it. For the tourist service it is special tourist ticket that is much much more expensive than the regular tickets.

In Darjeeling too the parallel bus service is much faster.


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