# Crescent vs. Northeast Regional



## morgan (Apr 25, 2012)

I've traveled from NYC to Virginia on the Northeast Regional - both in coach and business class. Business class is not all that swanky. You still have to hoof it down to the cafe car and wait in line for your free non-alcoholic beverage. Doesn't really seem worth it. Wondering if the Crescent train is a nice train? Modern, clean, etc.? Is coach on Crescent better than coach on NE Regional?


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## VentureForth (Apr 25, 2012)

I believe (and you can bet if I'm wrong it will be noted!) that the coach on the Crescent is the same as the 2x2 business seating on the NE Regional. You also have access to a full diner which is WAY better than the cafe car. Feeling really generous? Pay a few hundred bucks for a Viewliner Roomette and get that $30 meal for free! But you'll have that nice room to yourself (and up to one other passenger - the room rate is for the room, not per person) with a huge panoramic window and if you get bored a very comfortable berth.


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## the_traveler (Apr 25, 2012)

The short answer is that the Crescent is *MUCH* better!

NE Regional coaches use Amfleet I cars. I'm not certain if BC uses Amfleet II cars or Amfleet I cars with fewer seats per car. The Crescent uses Amfleet II cars for coach always!






And if given the choice of a train with a real Dining Car or an AmCafe, I'll pick the Dining Car train! However if there is a *LARGE* fare difference (say $60 vs $140), that could influence my choice, but if the fare spread is small (like $60 vs $65), I'd still probably go with the Crescent!


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## jis (Apr 25, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> NE Regional coaches use Amfleet I cars. I'm not certain if BC uses Amfleet II cars or Amfleet I cars with fewer seats per car. The Crescent uses Amfleet II cars for coach always!


Corridor BC cars are ex-Metroliner Amfleet I cars with fewer seats than in Coach. Amfleet II Coach cars are better IMHO.


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## Anderson (Apr 25, 2012)

Crescent. Two things to consider, by the way, are that:

1) Roomette fares drop the coach fare to the lowest bucket of $83 (so you may end up with a fare that is substantially lower than the combined coach+roomette amount) while BC is a "straight adder"; and

2) If the roomettes sell out south of Lynchburg but north of Atlanta, Amtrak will often drop the fare on the roomette to the lowest bucket to try and induce a sale (since that way, they get two room charges out of a single room). This happens a _lot_ on the Silver Meteor, and I've found that the cost for a roomette versus a BC seat is a push NB (I've actually seen it end up being cheaper than BC on one or two occasions, and it often ends up within $5 either way).

Note that Amtrak will generally keep the roomette fares up a bit if they _haven't _sold out to keep them clear for longer-distance travelers, but once they can't sell another roomette to someone coming from Charlotte or Atlanta, they'll jump at someone from Lynchburg (after all, why leave money on the table?). This isn't a hard-and-fast law of nature, but it's a safe rule to work by. It does, however, result in a _very _strange situation where a roomette can be your best last-minute travel option in terms of bang-for-buck.

So...jump at the Crescent if you can. The times aren't too bad compared to the Lynchburger, and the service is going to be substantially better (dining car versus cafe, for example).


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2012)

The coach seats on the Crescent are very nice and can be compared to BC on the Regional -- both have significantly more legroom than Regional coach seats.

Because the Crescent is a long distance train, originating in New Orleans, occasionally on-time performance can be a problem going northbound. If this is a significant issue with you, on your next trip you could try the Crescent southbound and the Regional northbound and compare comfort for yourself.

As mentioned before, always check the cost for a roomette on the Crescent. Considering that your meals in the diner are included, it can some times be a great value, particularly if there are two passengers traveling together. Even if you book coach, check again back closer to departure for roomette pricing.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Apr 25, 2012)

And aside from everything else, i believe one should sample as many different rail experiences as reasonable.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 25, 2012)

The Crescent easily kicks out the NER.


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## Shawn Ryu (Apr 25, 2012)

Yea Amtrak should probably extend the boarding only policy down to Virginia, where NER goes.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 25, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Yea Amtrak should probably extend the boarding only policy down to Virginia, where NER goes.


Well, it gets more LD ridership, and the VA routes have been so successful that they don't need more pax to keep alive. The LD trains are in more risk, so this is actually a good loophole.


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## gatelouse (Apr 25, 2012)

Not a loophole but a smart business move to resell seats and rooms empty north of Lynchburg!

For what it's worth, I find the assigned seating on the LD trains to be annoying. If you like to change seats throughout the trip or don't want to be stuck in an undesirable one for the entire ride, then favor the Regional.

If you've never ridden a LD train before, then ride the Crescent in sleeper. It's a wonderfully unique experience.


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## Anderson (Apr 25, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Yea Amtrak should probably extend the boarding only policy down to Virginia, where NER goes.


I actually could not disagree more, for several reasons.

1) The longer those trains run board/discharge only, the more likely it is that you're leaving _lots_ of money on the table. As it is, the SB Meteor often takes on 30-40 passengers at WAS and another 10-15 at ALX. If the boarding-only policy were reversed for WAS, even if it was for coach only and was restricted to those 30-50 seats, then assuming a (stupidly low) $50 fare that would be $1500-2500/day that the Meteor could rake in, or about $500,000-1,000,000/year. More likely, you could lock it to a higher bucket and probably double that, if not more. NB, I understand the issues of passengers not wanting to put up with delays, but SB this is _really_ a lot of money being left on the table.

The Silver Service loses about $80 million/year per Amtrak's FY12 estimates. If they could rake in $4 million/year with added sales going to WAS, that's $4 million to their bottom line (or 5% of the operating loss) and that's probably going to free up some seats on near-capacity Regionals that Amtrak is trying to wring extra cars out for to meet demand.

2) As an addendum to number 1: On some peak days (Thanksgiving weekend jumps to mind), I'd open up bookings on the NB LDs to those "lockout' seats. Why? Amtrak is borrowing/renting commuter cars from NEC agencies on Thanksgiving weekend when they could probably rake in a lot of money with this (assume 50 for the Star, 50 for the Meteor, and 25 for the Crescent...that's 125 pax/day). How much are we looking at here? Maybe $80,000 for the NB trains if you're lucky...but again, that's $80,000 being added to Amtrak's bottom line to as close to $0 in added costs as you can get.

3) Virginia does not have any other "premium service" trains. We don't have the Acela and frankly, we don't even have that many Regionals (5/day from RVR and 1/day from LYH/CVS). That is _nowhere_ near what you get north of WAS. When you've got 10-15 Regionals/day plus a bunch of upper-class corridor trains (Acela, Metroliner, etc.), that's one thing...but when you don't have that, it's kind of stupid. If there were some sort of "first class" on Regionals (call it something else, but say something that can include a full meal on-board, either served at-seat or in an improved cafe car and that involves more than microwaving a sandwich), that would be one thing...but there isn't.

-Quick addendum: The Meteor is just about the only train to get you from RVR-NYP before noon. I think the 6 AM Regional may, but that's going to come in _right_ at noon. Meteor up/Meteor back is the _only_ way to get from RVR to NYP for a daytrip (say, for a meeting of some kind)...which is another mark in favor of allowing LD seat sales in VA.

4) When someone is trying to give you money, it is generally a bad idea to say no. If I'm willing to give Amtrak another $25 to play the Diner Lottery on my way home from DC, Amtrak should take my money and thank me profusely rather than turning it down and tossing me onto a Regional. Frankly, if I were unable to take the Meteor back from DC, I'd go up to DC less than I do and Amtrak would be out a _lot_ of money per year. And if there's room for me in the dining car, that's $30-35 to OBS that they aren't going to get out of me in a Regional Cafe (and if there's an empty seat in the diner, that's $30-35 they're not getting from someone else, either). Where Amtrak might get me on a "discount" ticket for a Regional heading home from DC for $30, they get me for $50-60 in a coach fare and another $30-35 for dinner...and I _gladly_ pay it. Should Amtrak shove the extra $50-65 back in my face? Or should they say "Thank you" and ask me when they can offer it to me again?

Edit: For what it's worth, the same caveats apply in South Florida on the same routes notwithstanding any no-compete agreement with Tri-Rail. By all means, put capacity controls in place to preserve space for through passengers if you need to, but if you have seats rolling empty and you can, _then fill them_. The fact that Amtrak is constantly _begging_ for south-of-Orlando traffic through their regular discount fares is a sign that they ought to at least reconsider the D/R-only status of West Palm Beach (where the ridership numbers show that you've got 66,303 boardings and alightings in 2011...which means that you have at least 66,303 seats, 45/train each way that rolled into or out of WBP empty and that could have been filled with traffic looking for a more comfortable ride over that 90-minute trip).

Yes, it's a shorter trip but even if you pitched those seats to full status for $15/each that's a million dollars in the bank.


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## Donctor (Apr 25, 2012)

Coach on the Crescent should give you roughly the same legroom as business on the Regional (same number of seats per car). Coach on the Crescent will give you a seat with a calf rest. It should be a little bit nicer, especially now that air purifier-type devices are being installed at the restroom-end of the long-distance coach cars.


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## ttSta (Apr 25, 2012)

The Crescent is better than any Regional, basically because of the dining car. Regional coach is better than LD coach, where people have more stuff, spread out with pillows and blankets, and talk. Business Class prices on the Regional ($120 low bucket NYP-WAS) are actually about competitive with First Class in a roomette ($150 low NYP-ALX), particularly as meals are included and absolutely when traveling as two.


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## Anderson (Apr 25, 2012)

ttSta said:


> The Crescent is better than any Regional, basically because of the dining car. Regional coach is better than LD coach, where people have more stuff, spread out with pillows and blankets, and talk. Business Class prices on the Regional ($120 low bucket NYP-WAS) are actually about competitive with First Class in a roomette ($150 low NYP-ALX), particularly as meals are included and absolutely when traveling as two.


Well, and let's not forget that a lot of times that Regional coach is nowhere _near_ low bucket. Much of the time, the distortion I've noted comes from Regional coach being at a higher bucket ($160 or so) and BC adding to that ($40 more). Having done longer trips in Regional coach before, I can tell you that it can get a bit cramped after 5-6 hours, making BC border on being a necessity.

As to the capacity issues, if anything on the SB side of things, Amtrak could probably have revenue management engage in some semi-arcane capacity management tricks to open up LD coach space on the Corridor proper. I think we all know that the Meteor, Star, and Crescent don't leave NYP full (or really, anywhere close to it), but instead add folks at Newark, Trenton, Philly, Wilmington, Baltimore, and Washington. Amtrak could, if they were so inclined, open up some of the longer city pairs in the mix (NYP-BAL is probably the most obvious of these). If Amtrak is dead set on discouraging this, locking the capacity control-opened seats to a higher bucket instead of blocking sales would make more sense (and it would still get some business when Regionals start hitting overflow and/or the Regional fares really _do_ rise high enough to scare off business).

Part of the reason this seems doable is that you've got enough coach seats that you can predict how ridership will behave reasonably well to within a reasonable margin of error. The odds of a major distortion with 300 seats/train is a lot less than with 20-30 roomettes, for example...the seats are more inclined to "behave statistically" while the sample size on the roomettes is too small to get that behavior.

On the other end of things, if there were longer corridors where LD trains ran over the same ground as semi-frequent corridor operations, I could see some sense in Amtrak adding some "short haul" restrictions in the vein of what the private lines did in the old days on the longer-distance trains (for example, in the 1956 Guide that I have, you often see "tickets on train X from station Y only sold for travel beyond station Z").


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## Shawn Ryu (Apr 26, 2012)

Anderson said:


> 3) Virginia does not have any other "premium service" trains. We don't have the Acela and frankly, we don't even have that many Regionals (5/day from RVR and 1/day from LYH/CVS). That is _nowhere_ near what you get north of WAS. When you've got 10-15 Regionals/day plus a bunch of upper-class corridor trains (Acela, Metroliner, etc.), that's one thing...but when you don't have that, it's kind of stupid. If there were some sort of "first class" on Regionals (call it something else, but say something that can include a full meal on-board, either served at-seat or in an improved cafe car and that involves more than microwaving a sandwich), that would be one thing...but there isn't.
> 
> -Quick addendum: The Meteor is just about the only train to get you from RVR-NYP before noon. I think the 6 AM Regional may, but that's going to come in _right_ at noon. Meteor up/Meteor back is the _only_ way to get from RVR to NYP for a daytrip (say, for a meeting of some kind)...which is another mark in favor of allowing LD seat sales in VA.


Honestly did not think about that point. Fair enough. You have swayed my opinion with facts and logic.


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## PaulM (Apr 27, 2012)

Anderson said:


> .2) If the roomettes sell out south of Lynchburg but north of Atlanta, Amtrak will often drop the fare on the roomette to the lowest bucket to try and induce a sale (since that way, they get two room charges out of a single room).
> 
> ....
> 
> Note that Amtrak will generally keep the roomette fares up a bit if they _haven't _sold out to keep them clear for longer-distance travelers, but once they can't sell another roomette to someone coming from Charlotte or Atlanta, they'll jump at someone from Lynchburg (after all, why leave money on the table?).


This makes a lot of sense. After all a room between CHI and Galesburg on the SWC is worth a lot more to Amtrak before someone books it GBB to LAX. Afterwards, it's not worth much.

But I'll bet the system isn't smart enough to figure this out or even pop up a notice to the fare setters. With all the combinations, it would take a lot of manpower to do what you suggest.


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## Anderson (Apr 27, 2012)

PaulM said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > .2) If the roomettes sell out south of Lynchburg but north of Atlanta, Amtrak will often drop the fare on the roomette to the lowest bucket to try and induce a sale (since that way, they get two room charges out of a single room).
> ...


On the one hand, they at least seem to do it on the Silvers out of RVR...but that may just be a function of en masse detraining at RVR altering the buckets "the hard way" (i.e. lots of open space) more than anything. What evidence I've seen suggests that Amtrak _does_ try to round up those sales, though (hence the distortions I noticed...I swear the fare has come down close to the last minute at least once, too, which suggests that you've got some smart watchers). Especially with a few runs like this, it may be easy enough for Amtrak to keep track of which ones are ripe for such a move.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard (at least I wouldn't think) to load some sort of code tag in saying "if train X sells out the sleeper somewhere between RVR and SAV, move the remaining roomettes on the north/south end of that run to bucket Y".

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I'm wondering why Amtrak hasn't at least /tried/ to make a pitch on this front. From what I can tell right now, I've got six options to choose from on a run to New York. In order of most to least desirable, they are:

-Private room/LD train

-First Class/Acela

-Coach/LD train

-BC/Acela

-BC/Regional

-Coach/Regional

In general, I've got a rather low opinion of what is available to me on the Regional as far as amenities go (wi-fi notwithstanding). The Acela is a mixed bag...I really just don't enjoy the ride much, tbh. I've been on an Acela passing an LD train and vice-versa, and I can tell you which side of that I prefer to be on. Frankly, the food in the dining car is just better, period, and I prefer table service to at-seat service. But then again, this is just me.

Especially considering the large number of boardings in WAS (from the CA lounge, I generally count 6-10 roomettes being filled for the Meteor "in season"), it seems a shame that Amtrak doesn't try to work a pitch in here to "re-sell" that roomette. I mean...Amtrak /knows/ how much dead space those trains are

Honestly, I'm surprised that Amtrak doesn't try to "up-sell" such an option as an "Excellent way to start off a vacation, complete with a private room so you won't be bothered by other passengers and a full meal served to you in our dining car en route". It would make a nice pitch, especially (the more that I think about it) for the EB LSL and SB Meteor, and Amtrak can still manage availability.

Then again, I might just be horridly old-fashioned in my preferences...


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