# X-Train Chugging Along?



## Anderson

I've been following this "other" LA-LV project on and off, and I popped over to the website half-expecting to see a derelict with no updates in six months or something like that. To my (rather pleasant) surprise, the site is still active, and if anything it seems to be moving along quickly:

http://www.vegasxtra...train-blog.html

The tl;dr of this and one of their linked press bits from a Las Vegas news station is that they've been hiring staff over the summer, got a regulatory approval from the state of Nevada back in the spring, and they're looking to renovate the Amtrak station in Las Vegas and use Fullerton as their southern terminus.

Another interesting thing: I pulled up their stock info, and the stock has actually spiked pretty substantially over the last few weeks (and they've apparently been able to raise more from loans than just stock sales lately...which I _think_ is a good sign).

Finally, of import, some non-barking dogs:

1) There is no talk of operating agreements with UP or BNSF (they'll probably be using the tracks of both) for the (currently planned) twice-weekly service.

2) The twice-weekly plan is actually pared back, I believe, from the plans I recall seeing earlier to "ramp up" the service over a few years. I believe it started at once/twice a week and steadily expanded to have a _lot_ more frequencies.

3) Relating to #2, there is physically no way that their ridership projections can work out with only two round trips per week unless they're planning to jam about 10,000 people onto a single train. The two million or so that are projected comes to about 5600 per day over a year.

My guess here is that DX has more or less "scared them down" from a ramp-up (since if they _were_ to see a massive surge in ridership, it would likely be followed by a collapse once DX gets up and running).

In practical terms, I can't tell if the project is actually viable at this stage, but they seem to be getting money from_ somewhere, _since they managed to raise about $1.2m last quarter.

Edit: Ok, I think I mixed up this with the very-much-dead Z-Train proposal, which I rather recall deriding (either in my own mind or on here) as a circus on wheels.


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## afigg

I've seen a couple of news articles on them in the past few months. Ok, so they claim they are constructing or refurbing the station in Vegas.

Looking at their schedule, they will have at least 2 trainsets with 2 departures from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. I see some renderings of fancy coach car interiors, outfitted for the luxury market. Don't see any recent press releases on rolling stock. Ok, what equipment will they be using and where will they get it from?

Their schedule has a 5 hour trip time between Vegas and Fullerton. I guess I should check the old Amtrak schedules to see what the trip time was for the Desert Wind. I assume they must have discussions with UP and Metrolink, right?

The finances of this strike me as suspect to say the least. Can they possibly make enough revenue to pay for the rolling stock and overhead, let alone the cost of running the trains with only 2 round trips per week? One train departs Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday, then both back on Sunday. That is a LOT of idle time for the trains. Who is going to operate the trains for them with such a minimal schedule?

A lot of questions remain. If the X-train gets decent passenger traffic numbers, it says that Amtrak missed an opportunity to restore a LA to Vegas daily corridor service. Amtrak still could approach the city of Las Vegas and the casinos and ask them to provide the operating subsidies until XpressWest is up and running.


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## Anderson

afigg said:


> I've seen a couple of news articles on them in the past few months. Ok, so they claim they are constructing or refurbing the station in Vegas.
> 
> Looking at their schedule, they will have at least 2 trainsets with 2 departures from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. I see some renderings of fancy coach car interiors, outfitted for the luxury market. Don't see any recent press releases on rolling stock. Ok, what equipment will they be using and where will they get it from?
> 
> Their schedule has a 5 hour trip time between Vegas and Fullerton. I guess I should check the old Amtrak schedules to see what the trip time was for the Desert Wind. I assume they must have discussions with UP and Metrolink, right?
> 
> The finances of this strike me as suspect to say the least. Can they possibly make enough revenue to pay for the rolling stock and overhead, let alone the cost of running the trains with only 2 round trips per week? One train departs Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday, then both back on Sunday. That is a LOT of idle time for the trains. Who is going to operate the trains for them with such a minimal schedule?
> 
> A lot of questions remain. If the X-train gets decent passenger traffic numbers, it says that Amtrak missed an opportunity to restore a LA to Vegas daily corridor service. Amtrak still could approach the city of Las Vegas and the casinos and ask them to provide the operating subsidies until XpressWest is up and running.


I agree with you fully; there's no reason that two sets couldn't be stretched a _lot_ further (for example, adding a WB trip on Friday with the EB Thursday set, and then having that set return to Vegas on Saturday). The key seems to be that they're aiming for _very_ high loads on each train (1200 pax capacity is what I'm reading).

I'm wondering the same thing on rolling stock. 35 years ago, my guess would be that they'd just grab some stuff laying around, but that isn't an option now. Also, figuring that you're looking at perhaps 30+ cars for the sets (15/set plus spares seems to be where they're going with this), the equipment cost would run from $75m on the low end (looking at Viewliner pricing) to $120m+ on the high end (for bilevels). That is a _lot_ of money; my only guess, if I had to offer one, would be some hope of piggybacking on an Amtrak order.

As to times, pulling one of the 1995 timetables, I got the following for the Desert Wind:

Eastbound:

10:55 AM LAX

11:30 AM FUL

12:33 PM San Bernadino

1:35 PM Victorville

2:30 PM Barstow

5:45 PM Las Vegas

Westbound:

8:05 AM Las Vegas

11:25 AM Barstow

12:00 N Victorville

1:05 PM San Bernadino

2:18 PM FUL

3:20 PM LAX

There's about a 30 minute pad westbound between FUL and LAX, but at the same time that's academic as this operation isn't going all the way downtown (at least, not for now). FUL-Las Vegas times out at 6:15 EB and 6:12 WB, with three intermediate stops. Being a realist, I'd say that would allow for them to drop back to 6:00 without any trouble. I would also note that a check back to the April, 1983 timetable shows a LAX-Vegas time of 6:40 Eastbound, which again hints at 6:00 or so, albeit on a slightly different routing. The distance in question is 340 miles or thereabouts, so 6:00 give or take a bit makes a good deal of sense.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> FUL-Las Vegas times out at 6:15 EB and 6:12 WB, with three intermediate stops. Being a realist, I'd say that would allow for them to drop back to 6:00 without any trouble. I would also note that a check back to the April, 1983 timetable shows a LAX-Vegas time of 6:40 Eastbound, which again hints at 6:00 or so, albeit on a slightly different routing. The distance in question is 340 miles or thereabouts, so 6:00 give or take a bit makes a good deal of sense.


The Desert Wind trip times are from 1995. There have been a lot of track projects since then by UP, BNSF, and California to improve the flow of freight container traffic from Long Beach and for Metrolink service. There is the eastern Alameda corridor project and the Colton Flyover which is currently under construction.

Found a link on Wikipedia's entry for the Desert Wind (Amtrak) to an extensive 2007 "Las Vegas to Los Angeles Rail Corridor Improvement Feasibility Study". (213 pages, ~6 MB PDF). Chock full of rail maps, travel market for Southern CA to Vegas data, route alternative analysis, specific possible track projects, and project trip times for no, low-build, high-build improvements for Surfliner, Talgo, and wait for it, Bombardier JetTrain equipment.

I think some of the proposed projects for the LA to San Bernardino and BNSF Cajon Subdivision have been completed or are under construction since this 2007 report. However, the UP Cima Subdivision from near Barstow to Vegas which was 84% single tracked has probably seen few improvements. The report shows circa 6 hour trip times from LA Union Station to Vegas with various low-build improvements. So a circa 5 hour trip time from Fullerton to Vegas with stops only at Riverside and San Barnardino might be feasible with the track projects that are already done or under construction. But, by not starting at LA Union Station, they may cut off too much of the western half of LA region market.

The problem with the report that I see is that it is one of those, well, there are the low-build $1+ billion dollar improvement and the $3+ billion dollar high-build improvements. Those numbers make it politically difficult to even start a once a day service from scratch even with the bare minimum of improvements. Far easier to sell incremental improvements if there is a successful once a day train service with decent trip times showing that people will indeed take the train.

This report has to be the basis for the X-Train plans. Lays out for them the market numbers, peak travel days and route alternatives in detail.


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## Anderson

A read-through on the report makes a lot of sense out of things. The one jam that I see is that the ridership projections in this report are clearly quite a bit lower than what X-Train is aiming for, and that's _with_ daily service. However, with that said, there are three points in their defense:

1) Corridor ridership is up about 50% since the report was being worked on (I must presume that their ridership data is no newer than FY2006, and I'm actually expecting that they were working off of FY05 numbers).

2) These reports tend to be a hair on the conservative side (ignoring the Lynchburger, estimate-killing results have been increasingly common over the last few years); and

3) They can achieve rather high load factors with just the ballpark ridership in the report. Assuming 1200 seats/train and two round trips per week, you're looking at 249,600 seats being available. Could this operation put 200,000 butts in seats, for an 80% load factor? Based on the _massive_ travel market they're looking at per the report (excluding the western-most parts of the region as well as the extreme eastern parts and "other", I got 7.613m trips for 2007 and 9.774m trips for 2020; double this for the number of rides), the 100k riders needed for that would amount to about 1-2% market share. That seems to at least be _plausible, _though I think the far-less-than-daily operation would be a nasty hindirance to it breaking through in a serious fashion. Mind you, if they were able to add in some "specials" (i.e. running a return on Labor Day, trips around July 4th, etc.) on top of their existing operation, this becomes plausible.

Edit: I'll also note that the numbers in there without major builds make 5 hours look plausible for only running to Fullerton. A lack of intermediate stops (either none or only one at the far end of the area) also eases scheduling issues.


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## afigg

X-Train now claims to have purchased 10 passenger railrcars from a private owner, but the news release does not say who they acquire the cars from and what types. Anyone care to speculate? 

Quoting from the first paragraphs in the news release:



> LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwire - Aug 28, 2012) - Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. ("X" Train), a Delaware company (OTCQB: XTRN) is pleased to announce the company has executed an agreement with a private owner to acquire its first set of passenger railcars for its "X" Train project. The acquisition brings the first railset to "X" Train officials upon which the refurbishment is scheduled to begin early next year. The terms of the cash purchase were not disclosed.
> "These railcars are the genesis of our product and signal the beginning of the design and refurbishment process. When complete, the 'X' Train will establish a new, exciting and innovative travel experience for travelers between Los Angeles and Las Vegas," stated Joseph Cosio-Barron, Asset Development Managing Director for the Company. The ten car railset is the first of several which will undergo extensive renovation under the supervision of Mr. Cosio-Barron.
> 
> "X" Train President & CEO Michael A. Barron said, "We have acquired the first set of railcars and are expecting to begin renovation work later this year. Our plan is to use this first railset as our operating prototype and as a model for future cars."


Wonder if the refurbished cars will look anything like the artist renderings besides the logo on the side of the cars.


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## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> Anyone care to speculate?


NJ Transit?


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## amtrakwolverine

METRA? looks like their cars.


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## afigg

The Davy Crockett said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone care to speculate?
> 
> 
> 
> NJ Transit?
Click to expand...

The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't think NJ Transit meets that description.

Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.

The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.

I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?


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## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't NJ Transit meets that description.


Ah, yes. Details! :lol:



> Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.
> 
> The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.
> 
> I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?


At least (hopefully) it would be nice to see those cars have some attention paid them, if that were the case.


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## Anderson

The Davy Crockett said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The new release says they are acquiring the equipment from a private owner. I don't NJ Transit meets that description.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, yes. Details! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't there a storage yard with a large number of old Sante Fe hi-level passenger cars which used to belong to Amtrak? [pause for search]. Yes, in Illinois. There were a bunch of photos posted last year from a tour of the Gateway Rail facility in Madison, IL. The artist rendering attached to the news release may be a legit clue.
> 
> The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.
> 
> I'm still very skeptical about the viability of their business model or plan. So they spend millions(?) refurbishing 10 train cars with luxury interiors. Then they run the trainsets 1 paying round-trip a week? Really?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At least (hopefully) it would be nice to see those cars have some attention paid them, if that were the case.
Click to expand...

Well, let's not forget that those art renderings have been floating around for quite some time and may or may not still be accurate (I think they just repainted a Metra car design as a quick-and-easy selection). I'm hoping for the Hi-Levels, personally, so long as they don't get butchered into an unrecognizable circus. Likewise, I'd note that there are probably another 15-20 cars that could be purchased for either a second set, as spares, or to extend the set(s).

As to the issue of using the cars once a week, I think that demand will induce at least _some_ more use. Still, assuming 72 seats apiece in 9 cars (the tenth presumably doing duty as a diner/bar/lounge of some sort), you'd have a capacity of 648 paying passengers. If you cut this through a shift to 2-1 seating you'd have 432 passengers. Multiply this by $100/passenger, and weekly revenue on a run could hit about $43k on the 2-1 model or $65k on the 2-2 model (assuming that the $99 is a round-trip fare) or $86k/$130k (assuming it is a one-way fare). The hgh end therefore would be over $6 million in revenue over the course of a year.

I do suspect that if demand is strong, an additional round trip per set might work their way into the mix. For example, the Thursday set could run back to LA on Friday and then return on Saturday while the Friday set could do a Wedensday/Thursday round trip. This would offer service to Las Vegas on WRFS and service from Vegas on RFU. You'd have no service either way on MT, and I think the lack of Monday service is a potential failing due to holiday weekends and the like. _With that said_, it seems plausible that a pair of deadhead moves (or oddly-timed moves that are thin on revenue generation) could be worked into the mix, such as turning the Sunday Morning run to LA for a later-evening run back to Vegas so as to enable a Monday trip.

Also worth noting is that, at least in theory, two sets allows up to four equipment moves per day (i.e. one round trip with each set is viable). I think it is obvious that they want to do a lot less than this (both to avoid equipment issues and, at least for the time being, to avoid "over-serving" the market), but it also seems obvious that they _can_ push things a lut futrher. Of note is the fact that Sunday is actually the only day they actually _need_ both sets for their proposed service...in the event of a major problem (multiple car failures and the like), they can always rush some cars back to LA from the Thursday train to do double duty on the Friday one.


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## John Bredin

There's a private owner of Metra gallery cars. Several years back, Metra sold some of its carbon-steel (that is, not fluted stainless steel) cars, the oldest in its fleet, to Illinois Transit Assembly, of Madison IL.

ITA is now Gateway Rail Services. Interestingly, while GRS lists several passenger railcars for sale on its website, none of them are ex-Metra cars.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> As to the issue of using the cars once a week, I think that demand will induce at least _some_ more use. Still, assuming 72 seats apiece in 9 cars (the tenth presumably doing duty as a diner/bar/lounge of some sort), you'd have a capacity of 648 paying passengers. If you cut this through a shift to 2-1 seating you'd have 432 passengers. Multiply this by $100/passenger, and weekly revenue on a run could hit about $43k on the 2-1 model or $65k on the 2-2 model (assuming that the $99 is a round-trip fare) or $86k/$130k (assuming it is a one-way fare). The hgh end therefore would be over $6 million in revenue over the course of a year.
> 
> I do suspect that if demand is strong, an additional round trip per set might work their way into the mix. For example, the Thursday set could run back to LA on Friday and then return on Saturday while the Friday set could do a Wedensday/Thursday round trip. This would offer service to Las Vegas on WRFS and service from Vegas on RFU. You'd have no service either way on MT, and I think the lack of Monday service is a potential failing due to holiday weekends and the like. _With that said_, it seems plausible that a pair of deadhead moves (or oddly-timed moves that are thin on revenue generation) could be worked into the mix, such as turning the Sunday Morning run to LA for a later-evening run back to Vegas so as to enable a Monday trip.


The $99 is stated as an introductory price. Since their aim is to provide a "Las Vegas" style service - presumably after the more ostentatious Vegas hotels and casinos, not the low end flea bag motels - the standard price will be higher. But the material on the website discusses combining the train travel with bookings of hotels, spas, dining & show tickets. Which does change the economics behind their plan. Provide a weekend package trip with a X-Train to Vegas, a limo to the hotel and casino complex, spend 2 days dropping money at the casino and on shows, back to LA via the X-Train on Sunday night while recovering from the hangover and hoping what just happened in Vegas will indeed stay in Vegas.

As for the X-Train schedule and number of trips each week, they will have to pay UP trackage right fees and UP will say how many trips the X-Train can run in a week. What we don't know is what arrangements Las Vegas Railway Express has reached with UP.


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## GoldenSpike

Excerpt:

 

LAS VEGAS — Las Vegas Railway Express, which plans to begin luxury rail passenger service between suburban Los Angeles and Las Vegas in 2013, announced Tuesday it had "executed an agreement with a private owner to acquire its first set of passenger railcars for its 'X' Train project." Spokesperson Maria Bailey told Trains News Wire the cars being refurbished are ten bi-levels built by Pullman Standard. "The architectural firm is working on drawings of what the inside of the cars will look like, and those renderings should be released soon," she said. The company's release noted that the work would begin early next year but did not disclose the terms of the cash purchase nor where the cars came from. In the release, Las Vegas Railway Express president & CEO Michael A. Barron did say, "Our plan is to use this first railset as our operating prototype and as a model for future cars."

 

Rest of the article HERE.


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## Anderson

Ok, _now_ I am confused. Did Pullman-Standard do _any_ bilevel work other than the Superliners? The Hi-Levels were a Budd job, so this rules them out.

Actually, scratch that. We might be looking at ex-Metra gallery cars. Those are the only other bi-levels I can think of that P-S was invovled with off the top of my head.


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## afigg

Probably should merge this thread with the X-Train chugging along thread.

The Trains Magazine news brief does provide clues to where the 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels might coming from even if the company doesn't. Excerpt:



> Pullman Standard built bi-levels for multiple railroads, including the first push-pull commuter cars for Chicago & North Western. Colorado Railcar did have a number of ex-Southern Pacific Pullman Standard-built bi-levels on its Ft. Lupton, Colo., property in September, 2008, several months before the company went bankrupt. The cars were at various stages of transformation dating from the stillborn Marlboro Express in the 1990s (which was to feature a hot tub car), the Golden Eagle transcontinental train that was to run with Amtrak express cars in 2001, and eventually the Colorado Railcar-owned Grand Luxe cruise train, which abruptly halted operations in August, 2008.


Maybe that car still has the interior for a hot tub! Hot water sloshing around could be a wee bit of a problem with the FRA though. :lol:

Given the interview with the head guy behind XpressWest (formerly DesertXpress) which sounds as if XW is very close to getting approval for its $5.5 billion FRA RRIF loan, what would the loan do to the prospects for the X-Train? There would be a 5 year window before the XW is running and after that they could be competing with HSR service from Victorville. The 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels could go back into mothballs.


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## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> Maybe that car still has the interior for a hot tub!


Didn't that car get turned into the_travelers PV?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Any pictures of the said Pullman-Standard cars? Or at least the cars that you think X-Train bought.


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## Anderson

Huh...I didn't know how far Amtrak was along with their "Transcontinental Luxury Service" plans when the system growth plans got axed.

As to DX/XW impacting the X-Train (I don't think even Liz Taylor could come up with as many Xes as these trains seem to be involving), there are three options there:

1) DX/XW will basically kill the X-Train. The presence of a higher-speed service will more or less wipe out the appeal of the conventional-speed train. The time savings will be such that nobody will want to take they pokey 79 MPH train into Las Vegas.

2) The geographic markets will be sufficiently different that the X-Train can survive. Fullerton is further south in the LA Metro area and there are no concrete plans to connect DX/XW to LAUS. The added travel time to get to the bullet train therefore gets to be a bit prohibitive, leaving the X-Train a niche in serving the southern side of the LA region. This could be augmented if the X-Train folks and UP/BNSF can come to an agreement to add some stops in the Valley.

3) The market demographics of the X-Train are going to be distinct enough to support the service, and potentially offer complementary service in some form. This would assume that the bullet train ends up being somewhat more expensive (entirely believable), "nudging" more casual travelers to the X-Train for at least one leg of their trip with its lower fares and/or more tourist-oriented amenities. DX/XW carries the business community and a share of the tourist market, but X-Train also gets a share of it and gets some "makeup help" from the X-Train "normalizing" taking the train to/from Las Vegas.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They definately look like Metra cars. I wonder what locomotive they will use. Renderings show the F59PHI.

Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.


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## Anderson

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They definately look like Metra cars. I wonder what locomotive they will use. Renderings show the F59PHI.
> 
> Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.


Actually, Fullerton also connects with the Surfliners, which I presume would be (by a wide margin) the main connection concern. Particularly if DX/XW has a stop in Palmdale, there's not a _chance_ they'll get traffic traveling from further north.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Fullerton also connects with the Surfliners, which I presume would be (by a wide margin) the main connection concern. Particularly if DX/XW has a stop in Palmdale, there's not a _chance_ they'll get traffic traveling from further north.
Click to expand...

LA Union Station would provide direct connections to the LA subways and light rail transit system. I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.

Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday and none after either of proposed Sunday trains arrive at Fullerton. The second train on Sunday is nominally set to arrive at Fullerton at around 10 PM, which is before the last north and southbound Surfliners go through Fullerton, but there would be little margin for the X-Train to run late. The X-Train business plan is probably figuring on most people driving to or parking at Fullerton. On the other hand, they may be planing to run several charter buses to Fullerton from LAX and several other locations in the LA area as feeder connectors to the X-train.


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## Rob_C

afigg said:


> I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.
> 
> Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday...


Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.

Rob


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## leemell

Rob_C said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.
> 
> Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday...
> 
> 
> 
> Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.
> 
> Rob
Click to expand...

Or as the CEO of the XpressWest (nee Desertxpress) said, looking at their casino customers, about 75% come from the Inland Empire, making this a better bet. ;-)


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## afigg

Rob_C said:


> Which kind of contradicts the idea of LAUPT being too busy for an extra two trains on a Sunday. Maybe it's politics, or X-Train may be thinking if they can start with Fullerton it will be easier to get a shoe-in for a slot at LAUPT once people start complaining to Metrolink about problems with connections at Fullerton? Just some thoughts.
> 
> Rob


The Thursday and Friday departures from southern Cal would run into busier Metrolink traffic. The 12 Noon departures for Thursday and Friday from Fullerton shown on their projected schedule are not ideal times. Especially the Friday one where a 3 or 4 PM departure would fit more people's schedules. if you get to Vegas by 9 PM, so what? The partying has just barely gotten started by then. But mid to late afternoon departures will run into more Metrolink traffic.

As for getting customers from the Inland Empire, the X-Train can stop at Fullerton, San Barnardino on a departure from LAUPT. Could stop at Victorville too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another reason for this train to run into LAX would be connections to Amtrak. Might not be much but could be something.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Fullerton also connects with the Surfliners, which I presume would be (by a wide margin) the main connection concern. Particularly if DX/XW has a stop in Palmdale, there's not a _chance_ they'll get traffic traveling from further north.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LA Union Station would provide direct connections to the LA subways and light rail transit system. I would think X-Train would much rather operate from LA Union Station, but either it costs too much or Metrolink won't let them because of capacity constraints at the station and the tracks to LAX.
> 
> Fullerton is part of the Metrolink commuter rail system, but a quick check of the schedules show few Metrolink trains on Sunday and none after either of proposed Sunday trains arrive at Fullerton. The second train on Sunday is nominally set to arrive at Fullerton at around 10 PM, which is before the last north and southbound Surfliners go through Fullerton, but there would be little margin for the X-Train to run late. The X-Train business plan is probably figuring on most people driving to or parking at Fullerton. On the other hand, they may be planing to run several charter buses to Fullerton from LAX and several other locations in the LA area as feeder connectors to the X-train.
Click to expand...

I don't think running connecting buses will be very successful. Too much hassles possible.


----------



## afigg

Another step in the saga of the X-Train. I don't think we will know if this is a completely aboveboard venture with a realistic and viable business plan or a shady plan using the OPM financing approach (Other People's Money) until the train service actually starts and then runs for a year. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Latest press release: Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. Completes $2,282,000 Private Offering



> LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwire - Sep 18, 2012) - Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. ("X" Train) (OTCQB: XTRN)
> The X Train announced that including sales previously disclosed in filings made by the Company with the Securities and Exchange Commission from May 3 2012 until September 13, 2012, the Company has sold an aggregate of 45,640,000 shares of its common stock for an aggregate purchase price (before deducting expenses of the private placements ) of $2,282,000 to accredited investors. The offering is officially closed to investors. The Company intends to use the net proceeds from the private placements in the amount of 2,186,880 to acquire the company's first railset, station site development costs and engineering, as well as general operating expenses.
> 
> "We are pleased with the interest on the part of investors in the private placement," stated Michael Barron, President and CEO of the Company. "We think we are prepared for the next phase of development of our project now," he remarked. The X Train was represented in the private placement by Sichenzia Ross Friedman Ference LLP.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> The X-Train plans are to run an excursion level service: one train departing Fullerton on Thursday, one on Friday; then both back from Vegas to Fullerton on Sunday. The cars would not get the daily pounding that Amtrak's equipment receives, so they would have multiple down days to maintain the old equipment.


that would require either the provison of two consists, or one consist that shuttles back (empty?) in between the Thursday and Friday run.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> Given the interview with the head guy behind XpressWest (formerly DesertXpress) which sounds as if XW is very close to getting approval for its $5.5 billion FRA RRIF loan, what would the loan do to the prospects for the X-Train? There would be a 5 year window before the XW is running and after that they could be competing with HSR service from Victorville. The 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels could go back into mothballs.


I guess those 5 years are a bit optimistic. It's assuming all approvals and financing work out on the first attempt. But even if construction does start on time, projects like that almost always slip a bit. If it slips more towards the 10 year margin, that could leave X-train enough time to do good business before pulling out. It's second hand cars they're going to use, and those are not going to last forever anyway.


----------



## PPorro

Sounds like an entertaining project to be watching.

Cars like these?





They look like two level?


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Given the interview with the head guy behind XpressWest (formerly DesertXpress) which sounds as if XW is very close to getting approval for its $5.5 billion FRA RRIF loan, what would the loan do to the prospects for the X-Train? There would be a 5 year window before the XW is running and after that they could be competing with HSR service from Victorville. The 10 Pullman Standard bi-levels could go back into mothballs.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess those 5 years are a bit optimistic. It's assuming all approvals and financing work out on the first attempt. But even if construction does start on time, projects like that almost always slip a bit. If it slips more towards the 10 year margin, that could leave X-train enough time to do good business before pulling out. It's second hand cars they're going to use, and those are not going to last forever anyway.
Click to expand...

True. It's ironic, but if DX/XW either melts down or gets hopelessly tied up in red tape, there's a risk that X-Train might _need_ to look at dumping the service to Amtrak to avoid getting stuck with equipment replacement (or rounding up some sort of supplemental order) in the mid-20s. Of course, if the operating margin turns out to be decent, the company might be able to afford such an overhaul at that point. Of course, like I've noted, the addition of a third set of equipment to the mix (from what they've said, they intend to get at least another 10-car set before all is said and done, at least if their passenger capacity plans are to be believed) could facilitate something slightly larger/allow for slightly longer vacations (or a "reverse schedule" option).

Amusing question: For LVRE, what exactly would qualify as a "discontinued operation" for this company?

PPorro: What's that a shot of? One of the Chicago yards some time ago?


----------



## PPorro

Google Maps view of Gateway Rail Services Inc, 1980 3rd Street, Madison, IL 38°40'44.07" N 90°08'34.93" W . It was just a shot in the dark. If you go to the view, they have a big yard full of pretty cars of all sorts. I see the Mark Twain Train (had to do that) with one extra car? Or one similar design? Arrived between Aug 2007 and April 2008.

I'm still learning and figured people here might know the cars from the photo, but I'm guessing they are Budd Cars. None seem to look exactly like the artists rendering? But the string in the middle, seems similar?

Found this, station design video. http://la.curbed.com...gas_station.php

Las Vegas Railway Express - http://www.lasvegass...t-rails-sooner/

With that, a screen grab of the artists concept in the video. If he worked from a real car design, some of you can tell what it is. I can't.





photo upload


----------



## Blackwolf

PPorro said:


> photo upload


Looks like the 'artist' simply took either a Chicago Metra or SF Bay Area CalTrain car and slapped on some not so fancy graphics.

That would be a "Gallery" car, built for high passenger-load commuter service and currently being manufactured by the Nippon-Sharyo corporation (just so happens to be the same company who won the contract to build the next-gen 'California' cars for Amtrak's State services.)

The cars you were referencing to in the Gateway Rail Services photo are indeed Budd-built bi-levels. They were built in the 1950's for the Santa-Fe railway on their 'El Capitan' service as so-called 'Hi-Level' cars. They have been hard-ran, pretty much worn out and as such fully disposed of by Amtrak in the 1990's when the Superliner II's showed up. They don't have retention toilets, instead dumping the waste to the tracks, and this makes them illegal to run unless retrofitted. There are also no more parts available for them if/when things break. As such, you'll also need a shop capable of making custom parts from simple faucet handles to full-on truck and A/C assemblies. As such, the only real economical place that fleet can go is a scrap yard... Anyone looking to buy them outright and place them back into full-scale revenue service is either a rich idiot, or have their heads in the clouds.

They helped spawn the double-decker design and prove it to be a good one. But they have done their duty and need to be relegated to a museum or individual PV owners. Or the cutter's torch.


----------



## PPorro

Oh darn, artists concept. So they won't be running these nifty vintage E9 engines either?


----------



## NAVYBLUE

http://www.lvrj.com/...-174081901.html

Although I am cautiously optimistic, I have some doubts he can get AMTRAK and the (3) host tracks on his side, but I'll wait and see. It would be a boon to Las Vegas' economy as the train ends right on the Strip at the Plaza Casino. It could bring in the gamblers and 'outdoor recreation" enthusiasts and facilitate railfans (ME-ME-ME) to LAX and EMY for LD trains and the west coast trains.

From the article he has already bought rolling stock from a private company in Wisconsin. My concern is the company's lack of experience in the transportation field and the aforementioned AMTRAK/host railroad cooperation.

Comments ?

NAVYBLUE


----------



## johnny.menhennet

NAVYBLUE said:


> http://www.lvrj.com/...-174081901.html
> 
> Although I am cautiously optimistic, I have some doubts he can get AMTRAK and the (3) host tracks on his side, but I'll wait and see. It would be a boon to Las Vegas' economy as the train ends right on the Strip at the Plaza Casino. It could bring in the gamblers and 'outdoor recreation" enthusiasts and facilitate railfans (ME-ME-ME) to LAX and EMY for LD trains and the west coast trains.
> 
> From the article he has already bought rolling stock from a private company in Wisconsin. My concern is the company's lack of experience in the transportation field and the aforementioned AMTRAK/host railroad cooperation.
> 
> Comments ?
> 
> NAVYBLUE


Okay, while I have only been to Vegas once, and it was 5 and a half years ago, I clearly remember the Plaza being DOWNTOWN and not on the Strip. For those of you who haven't been to Vegas, they are actually two very different neighborhoods, with the Plaza likely being a good 2-4 miles north of the Strip, depending on where you are staying. The strip hosts the majority of Vegas' hotels/casinos popular with tourists. While someone booking a ticket wouldn't know that they would need a $20 cab ride once they got there, especially if it was their first trip, I am surprised that X-Train would not want an entirely new, purpose-built station that is 1) better able to suit the needs of the service , being NEW and all, 2) being closer to almost every major hotel by multiple miles, and 3) while not as important, it is near the airport as well. It looks as if there is land about 1000 feet south of Tropicana that could be used, which opens up and becomes definitely wide enough for 2 stub tracks should they want that, to hold 2 trains. Stubs will almost certainly be required by UP, and there is room. Empty land will also give room for taxis and amenities. Another smaller likely overlooked benefit is that by being so much closer to the popular hotels, you could have the journey take 5 minutes less. The public would expect a certain time from Fullerton to Vegas, but they don't really care where it is in Vegas, it's more of a perception thing. If you can have the same scheduled time but a faster run time, it allows for more "free" padding that won't hurt the schedule at all. Or if you are sure that the run will be efficient without delays, then you can take 5 minutes off!


----------



## Anderson

Of course, the counterpoint is that a $15-20 cab ride is necessary from McCarran to most resorts as it is, so you're probably at a wash either way. But I do know what you're saying on the "free padding". With that noted, though, I think the key is that even if they renovate the station at the Plaza, it's still a relatively "turnkey" station, while Fullerton is an active train station. That basically saves them the hassle (and cost) of building new stations at either end (which would probably add another 6-12 months to startup time).

If the operation is successful and ridership meets or exceeds projections, I could see a lot of things potentially happening (more trains, closer-to-daily service, adding a "Strip Station" [if the TSA checks your bag at such a place, would that make it a Strip Search?  ], and so forth). However, those are all big "ifs" at this point.


----------



## afigg

NAVYBLUE said:


> http://www.lvrj.com/...-174081901.html
> 
> Although I am cautiously optimistic, I have some doubts he can get AMTRAK and the (3) host tracks on his side, but I'll wait and see. It would be a boon to Las Vegas' economy as the train ends right on the Strip at the Plaza Casino. It could bring in the gamblers and 'outdoor recreation" enthusiasts and facilitate railfans (ME-ME-ME) to LAX and EMY for LD trains and the west coast trains.
> 
> From the article he has already bought rolling stock from a private company in Wisconsin. My concern is the company's lack of experience in the transportation field and the aforementioned AMTRAK/host railroad cooperation.


The article makes the plans sound sketchy as they have appeared to be all along. Making public comments in 2010 about how the service could start in 2011 w/o having had in-depth discussions with UP on track access does not make Mr. Barron nor the company look reliable.

On the other hand, if the X-trains are to be run by Amtrak under contract, that would provide assurance that the trains are being run by qualified professionals. However, it might be a good idea for Amtrak to demand to be paid much of the start-up staffing and first month of operation costs in advance - and make sure the check clears.

If the company is willing and able to pay competitive trackage rights fees to have priority over freight trains, that would be a big step to making it a viable service. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are track upgrade projects underway by UP and BSNF in So Cal that should address some of the choke-points that were an issue in the most recent LA to Las Vegas Amtrak corridor service study.

As for getting to the casinos in Vegas, the company can arrange for shuttle buses to meet the arriving train and take passengers to their particular casino destination and then pick them up on Sunday to take them to the station. With only 2 arrivals and 2 departures per week, that should be pretty simple to do.


----------



## calwatch

Here's something cut and pasted from another board to their investors:

Dear X Train Shareholders and fans:Well, the long hot summer here in Las Vegas is over finally. And although the heat was turned up pretty high here, we had it turned up even higher on our project. We began our actual construction project on the station at the Plaza Hotel by hiring on our civil engineers, Walker Engineering, our General Contractor – R&O Construction, our Architects, Carpenter, Sellers, DelGatto, our rail engineers DeBerg & Associates as well as a host of ancillary professional staff with the City of Las Vegas. The civil engineering report was completed by Walker engineering and now identifies all infrastructure constraints on the site

We are now working with DeBerg to lay in the rail location and to orient the platform for speedy unloading. Approvals will take about 6 months before we can begin construction.We acquired 10 railcars outright and have them parked in a rail yard in Wisconsin. The cars are bi-level designs which we will refurbish into our Vegas Class club lounge cars. The designs for the interiors are being done by Carpenter Sellers DelGatto, architects, and are very spiffy.This is a working sample of one configuration which has a self-contained bar/lounge and food service area in each car and holds 40 people in complete comfort. (Photo not included)

Other designs are in the works as well and we will show them to you as they are available.

We will be acquiring additional rail cars to add to this set and expect to begin renovation after the first of the year 2013.Our marketing efforts have gone into high gear with the addition of our COO- Passenger Services – Penny Stegeman. Penny comes from the Vegas ticketing business and the airline services business. In her first two calls to major properties here in town, both customers indicated they could fill a train all year with just their own clients. Pretty good start for us on that. We have a lot more to talk about with these folks, but both are extremely excited about being part of the project. No names as yet. That is still confidential, but we will make it public when it’s all done.

On the technology side, Bob Gottesman has come on board as our EVP/CIO and has two jobs he is responsible for. First he is the project manager for our development projects. This is like building the trip from the Earth to the Moon. Each project from station construction to car acquisition and build-out to logistics planning to IT systems is like a business of its own. I have attached Bob’s dashboard from the project management system so you can see what I’m talking about. It’s complicated, to say the least. We currently have about 400 tasks we manage. By the time the train runs, it will be 4,000.

We completed an offering of $2.28 million for the company. This capital allows us to proceed with the development of the station, electronics infrastructure and to acquire the railset for the first train. Our next mission is to organize for our larger offering later this year. We have moved the ball forward with the railroads and expect final logistics to be completed by November for both railroads. Amtrak was selected as our haulage partner and we are now working on the marketing and technical interface with their existing train network. You will be able to buy an X Train ticket at any one of the thousands of Amtrak kiosks nationwide. We will be carried on their national timetable as well.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

calwatch said:


> We will be carried on their national timetable as well.


I was hoping this would be the case. Will make a much easier job of selling tickets on a national scale, IMO.


----------



## Anderson

I'd note that the article gives a bit of discredit where it isn't entirely due. There was another proposal at the same time (the Z-Train) that was also the object of the memo killing off the casino car(s), something that I don't think was entirely expected...and to be fair, at that stage I'd suggest that it was little more than an idea and a webpage. The fact that the X-Train has managed to round up several million dollars in investment income and actually seems to be working out operating agreements and the like strikes me as comparatively positive.

This is still, in many ways, a couple of people and a dream...but from what I can tell:

1) The market does seem to be there, it was just never served well by Amtrak on the one hand, and gas prices weren't _quite_ there to make it work as well before on the other; and

2) The pieces seem to slowly be coming together.

That these guys are engaged in a bit of puffery isn't really a shock...but a lot of the nuances come down to arguments over a line or two of copy somewhere, nothing more. I've seen _far_ worse from numerous campaigns over the years (heck, you often see worse at earnings time on Wall Street). Granted, it's clear that they've been learning on the job, but at the same time I do suspect that there have been some parts of the plan that have fallen through (such as the previous car acquisition...it's entirely possible, for example, that they had a line on a set of cars and couldn't round up the financing at the time).

With all of that said, I'd like to see some confirmation on Amtrak agreeing to handle their tickets and stick them in the timetable from _Amtrak_.

(Also, a challenge: If they _are_ buyable through Amtrak and can be interlined, find a way to force a cash value ticket out of them!)


----------



## cirdan

PPorro said:


> photo upload


I wouldn't attach too much importance to that photo. To me it looks as if somebody had some fun doodling on a stock photo with Photoshop paint.

It doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with what's really going to happen.


----------



## cirdan

Blackwolf said:


> The cars you were referencing to in the Gateway Rail Services photo are indeed Budd-built bi-levels. They were built in the 1950's for the Santa-Fe railway on their 'El Capitan' service as so-called 'Hi-Level' cars. They have been hard-ran, pretty much worn out and as such fully disposed of by Amtrak in the 1990's when the Superliner II's showed up. They don't have retention toilets, instead dumping the waste to the tracks, and this makes them illegal to run unless retrofitted. There are also no more parts available for them if/when things break. As such, you'll also need a shop capable of making custom parts from simple faucet handles to full-on truck and A/C assemblies. As such, the only real economical place that fleet can go is a scrap yard... Anyone looking to buy them outright and place them back into full-scale revenue service is either a rich idiot, or have their heads in the clouds..


True, but they're hardly going to be restored to their previous condition. It's more likely they will have everything ripped out and be reduced to a mere bodyshell and then refitted with some attractive Vegas-style modern interior. As such there will be modern bathrooms with retention tanks and modern AC systems and thus spare parts won't be a problem either.


----------



## NAVYBLUE

johnny.menhennet said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lvrj.com/...-174081901.html
> 
> Although I am cautiously optimistic, I have some doubts he can get AMTRAK and the (3) host tracks on his side, but I'll wait and see. It would be a boon to Las Vegas' economy as the train ends right on the Strip at the Plaza Casino. It could bring in the gamblers and 'outdoor recreation" enthusiasts and facilitate railfans (ME-ME-ME) to LAX and EMY for LD trains and the west coast trains.
> 
> From the article he has already bought rolling stock from a private company in Wisconsin. My concern is the company's lack of experience in the transportation field and the aforementioned AMTRAK/host railroad cooperation.
> 
> Comments ?
> 
> NAVYBLUE
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, while I have only been to Vegas once, and it was 5 and a half years ago, I clearly remember the Plaza being DOWNTOWN and not on the Strip. For those of you who haven't been to Vegas, they are actually two very different neighborhoods, with the Plaza likely being a good 2-4 miles north of the Strip, depending on where you are staying. The strip hosts the majority of Vegas' hotels/casinos popular with tourists. While someone booking a ticket wouldn't know that they would need a $20 cab ride once they got there, especially if it was their first trip, I am surprised that X-Train would not want an entirely new, purpose-built station that is 1) better able to suit the needs of the service , being NEW and all, 2) being closer to almost every major hotel by multiple miles, and 3) while not as important, it is near the airport as well. It looks as if there is land about 1000 feet south of Tropicana that could be used, which opens up and becomes definitely wide enough for 2 stub tracks should they want that, to hold 2 trains. Stubs will almost certainly be required by UP, and there is room. Empty land will also give room for taxis and amenities. Another smaller likely overlooked benefit is that by being so much closer to the popular hotels, you could have the journey take 5 minutes less. The public would expect a certain time from Fullerton to Vegas, but they don't really care where it is in Vegas, it's more of a perception thing. If you can have the same scheduled time but a faster run time, it allows for more "free" padding that won't hurt the schedule at all. Or if you are sure that the run will be efficient without delays, then you can take 5 minutes off!
Click to expand...

Johnny,

The "Old Strip" (everything north of the Stratosphere) wants the X Train to debark at the Plaza. Th old strip is undergoing a renaissance (driven a lot by Zappos CEO). They WANT the debark point to be in the old strip area.

From the Plaza they can get to the center of the "New Strip" by taxi ($10), Monorail from Sahara-MGM Grand ($7 one way) or use the Duece double decker bus for 24 hours for $8 which runs by every 15 minutes and goes from Fremont street to Mandalay Bay (southern end of the 'New Strip)

A spar off Tropicana would be too cost prohibitive at $1,000,000/acre, red tape nightmare and also the UP tracks veer sharply southwest after crossing Spring Mountain road. Plus at that area there is technically no way to get the tracks to Las Vegas Blvd without them blowing up at least one casino

Las Vegas trivia. The old and new strip is NOT in Las Vegas. They are in the unincorporated towns of Paradise and Winchester which is SOUTH of the Las Vegas city limits. This was done because the original developers could not "massage" the Las Vegas city officials as well as the Clark County officials if you get my drift. The (2) towns, Las Vegas, Henderson, Mesquite, NORTH Las Vegas (where I live) are presently part of Clark County.

How to tell if you are in Las Vegas or North Las Vegas. Las Vegas has green road signs, North Las Vegas has brown. Las Vegas is to the west, east and south of North Las Vegas. to the North of NORTH Las Vegas is Desert Wildlife National Refuge and National Security Test Site (Area 51 and aliens) LOL.

More trivia. Prostitution is illegal in Clark County. In Pahrump west of Las Vegas in Nye County it is legal. Law says it is legal in counties whose population is less than 600,000 people. It is legal to walk on the strip with a Colt 45 pistol holstered on each hip with an alcoholic drink. It is illegal for anyone in a car on the strip to have a open beer can or other alcoholic drink in the interior of the vehicle while cruising the strip. It is legal to drink(except driver) in a vehicle that is cruising the that has a limo license.

Las Vegas valley is 600 square miles. The Las Vegas strips (old and new) are (1) mile wide by (10) miles long. All the rest is "normal" people. (LOL)

It is actually and great place to live, work and retire. Only taxes are property taxes, non food sales tax and vehicle registration tax. They tax NO retirement income/pensions.

That being said I wait to see if this gets off the ground and whether there will be any NON party cars added for those wanting to be a tourist in California or to catch a LD train out of LAX/EMY

NAVYBLUE


----------



## johnny.menhennet

NAVYBLUE said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lvrj.com/...-174081901.html
> 
> Although I am cautiously optimistic, I have some doubts he can get AMTRAK and the (3) host tracks on his side, but I'll wait and see. It would be a boon to Las Vegas' economy as the train ends right on the Strip at the Plaza Casino. It could bring in the gamblers and 'outdoor recreation" enthusiasts and facilitate railfans (ME-ME-ME) to LAX and EMY for LD trains and the west coast trains.
> 
> From the article he has already bought rolling stock from a private company in Wisconsin. My concern is the company's lack of experience in the transportation field and the aforementioned AMTRAK/host railroad cooperation.
> 
> Comments ?
> 
> NAVYBLUE
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, while I have only been to Vegas once, and it was 5 and a half years ago, I clearly remember the Plaza being DOWNTOWN and not on the Strip. For those of you who haven't been to Vegas, they are actually two very different neighborhoods, with the Plaza likely being a good 2-4 miles north of the Strip, depending on where you are staying. The strip hosts the majority of Vegas' hotels/casinos popular with tourists. While someone booking a ticket wouldn't know that they would need a $20 cab ride once they got there, especially if it was their first trip, I am surprised that X-Train would not want an entirely new, purpose-built station that is 1) better able to suit the needs of the service , being NEW and all, 2) being closer to almost every major hotel by multiple miles, and 3) while not as important, it is near the airport as well. It looks as if there is land about 1000 feet south of Tropicana that could be used, which opens up and becomes definitely wide enough for 2 stub tracks should they want that, to hold 2 trains. Stubs will almost certainly be required by UP, and there is room. Empty land will also give room for taxis and amenities. Another smaller likely overlooked benefit is that by being so much closer to the popular hotels, you could have the journey take 5 minutes less. The public would expect a certain time from Fullerton to Vegas, but they don't really care where it is in Vegas, it's more of a perception thing. If you can have the same scheduled time but a faster run time, it allows for more "free" padding that won't hurt the schedule at all. Or if you are sure that the run will be efficient without delays, then you can take 5 minutes off!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Johnny,
> 
> The "Old Strip" (everything north of the Stratosphere) wants the X Train to debark at the Plaza. Th old strip is undergoing a renaissance (driven a lot by Zappos CEO). They WANT the debark point to be in the old strip area.
> 
> From the Plaza they can get to the center of the "New Strip" by taxi ($10), Monorail from Sahara-MGM Grand ($7 one way) or use the Duece double decker bus for 24 hours for $8 which runs by every 15 minutes and goes from Fremont street to Mandalay Bay (southern end of the 'New Strip)
> 
> A spar off Tropicana would be too cost prohibitive at $1,000,000/acre, red tape nightmare and also the UP tracks veer sharply southwest after crossing Spring Mountain road. Plus at that area there is technically no way to get the tracks to Las Vegas Blvd without them blowing up at least one casino
> 
> Las Vegas trivia. The old and new strip is NOT in Las Vegas. They are in the unincorporated towns of Paradise and Winchester which is SOUTH of the Las Vegas city limits. This was done because the original developers could not "massage" the Las Vegas city officials as well as the Clark County officials if you get my drift. The (2) towns, Las Vegas, Henderson, Mesquite, NORTH Las Vegas (where I live) are presently part of Clark County.
> 
> How to tell if you are in Las Vegas or North Las Vegas. Las Vegas has green road signs, North Las Vegas has brown. Las Vegas is to the west, east and south of North Las Vegas. to the North of NORTH Las Vegas is Desert Wildlife National Refuge and National Security Test Site (Area 51 and aliens) LOL.
> 
> More trivia. Prostitution is illegal in Clark County. In Pahrump west of Las Vegas in Nye County it is legal. Law says it is legal in counties whose population is less than 600,000 people. It is legal to walk on the strip with a Colt 45 pistol holstered on each hip with an alcoholic drink. It is illegal for anyone in a car on the strip to have a open beer can or other alcoholic drink in the interior of the vehicle while cruising the strip. It is legal to drink(except driver) in a vehicle that is cruising the that has a limo license.
> 
> Las Vegas valley is 600 square miles. The Las Vegas strips (old and new) are (1) mile wide by (10) miles long. All the rest is "normal" people. (LOL)
> 
> It is actually and great place to live, work and retire. Only taxes are property taxes, non food sales tax and vehicle registration tax. They tax NO retirement income/pensions.
> 
> That being said I wait to see if this gets off the ground and whether there will be any NON party cars added for those wanting to be a tourist in California or to catch a LD train out of LAX/EMY
> 
> NAVYBLUE
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info. I knew most of it, but some was good to hear. I was not advocating an actual spur track basically to the MGM. Rather, I was saying that there is undeveloped land about 1000 feet south of Tropicana at the tracks that would be suitable for a station. By spur I meant stub-end tracks I guess, in the same manner as LAUS has tracks that end. Regardless of a renaissance in the traditional downtown area, I still feel most tourists and hotel/casinos would support the station nearer the REAL (frequented) strip. Just my opinion.


----------



## NAVYBLUE

johnny.menhennet said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Johnny,
> 
> The "Old Strip" (everything north of the Stratosphere) wants the X Train to debark at the Plaza. Th old strip is undergoing a renaissance (driven a lot by Zappos CEO). They WANT the debark point to be in the old strip area.
> 
> From the Plaza they can get to the center of the "New Strip" by taxi ($10), Monorail from Sahara-MGM Grand ($7 one way) or use the Duece double decker bus for 24 hours for $8 which runs by every 15 minutes and goes from Fremont street to Mandalay Bay (southern end of the 'New Strip)
> 
> A spar off Tropicana would be too cost prohibitive at $1,000,000/acre, red tape nightmare and also the UP tracks veer sharply southwest after crossing Spring Mountain road. Plus at that area there is technically no way to get the tracks to Las Vegas Blvd without them blowing up at least one casino
> 
> Las Vegas trivia. The old and new strip is NOT in Las Vegas. They are in the unincorporated towns of Paradise and Winchester which is SOUTH of the Las Vegas city limits. This was done because the original developers could not "massage" the Las Vegas city officials as well as the Clark County officials if you get my drift. The (2) towns, Las Vegas, Henderson, Mesquite, NORTH Las Vegas (where I live) are presently part of Clark County.
> 
> How to tell if you are in Las Vegas or North Las Vegas. Las Vegas has green road signs, North Las Vegas has brown. Las Vegas is to the west, east and south of North Las Vegas. to the North of NORTH Las Vegas is Desert Wildlife National Refuge and National Security Test Site (Area 51 and aliens) LOL.
> 
> More trivia. Prostitution is illegal in Clark County. In Pahrump west of Las Vegas in Nye County it is legal. Law says it is legal in counties whose population is less than 600,000 people. It is legal to walk on the strip with a Colt 45 pistol holstered on each hip with an alcoholic drink. It is illegal for anyone in a car on the strip to have a open beer can or other alcoholic drink in the interior of the vehicle while cruising the strip. It is legal to drink(except driver) in a vehicle that is cruising the that has a limo license.
> 
> Las Vegas valley is 600 square miles. The Las Vegas strips (old and new) are (1) mile wide by (10) miles long. All the rest is "normal" people. (LOL)
> 
> It is actually and great place to live, work and retire. Only taxes are property taxes, non food sales tax and vehicle registration tax. They tax NO retirement income/pensions.
> 
> That being said I wait to see if this gets off the ground and whether there will be any NON party cars added for those wanting to be a tourist in California or to catch a LD train out of LAX/EMY
> 
> NAVYBLUE
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the info. I knew most of it, but some was good to hear. I was not advocating an actual spur track basically to the MGM. Rather, I was saying that there is undeveloped land about 1000 feet south of Tropicana at the tracks that would be suitable for a station. By spur I meant stub-end tracks I guess, in the same manner as LAUS has tracks that end. Regardless of a renaissance in the traditional downtown area, I still feel most tourists and hotel/casinos would support the station nearer the REAL (frequented) strip. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Johnny,

What I see is that IF this gets off the ground, that after they've been stopping at the Plaza for a while and get some revenue, MGM (owns 8 casinos on strip), Wynn, Adelson (SANDS corp) will foot the bill to build (with X train/politicians approval) a station where UP tracks cross Flamingo (center of the New strip) and taxis then could have you to a new strip casino in (5) minutes. The (3) Amigos could also have courtesy vans (highly unlikely, taxi companies in Vegas powerful) but the "Duece) could go from strip to Flamingo station and then back to strip. Could be a "Duece" going north or south on the strip to divert to pick up passengers.

If it even flies, they will have to take baby steps. I agree in that I think most of the California low and high rollers are going to want the "New Strip"

NAVYBLUE


----------



## Anderson

The biggest obstacle to that happening might be the timeline on DX/XW. Of course, that caveat comes with a counter-caveat: Fullerton-Palmdale is two hours or so when traffic isn't /too/ bad while Fullerton-Victorville is 1:30-2:00. These numbers go downhill if you have to take Metrolink up to Palmdale from the LA area. Likewise, FUL is 15 minutes from Disneyland.

So, there might still be a market for the X-Train even post-DX/XW:

-If getting to the bullet train takes me two hours (or more) in traffic or requires me to change trains several times (and especially if it ends up costing any substantial amount more), I might just say "screw it" and take the slower train on my side of town, since the time savings would evaporate in the process of fighting my way across the metro area (not to mention that Palmdale-Victorville might well cost another 20-30 minutes in time on the bullet train...at that point, it's 30 minutes' time savings on the bullet train).

-As perhaps hinted at above, service into Fullerton offers some interesting "do both areas" tour options (including either Disney or San Diego as second destinations, or even putting all three on the same reservation) or allowing for targeting Vegas as a tourist market for the train as well. Moreover, until CAHSR gets going through the mountains (and/or unless DX/XW gets extended into LA proper, which may basically be the same thing), the X-Train might actually end up with BETTER connectivity vis-a-vis most of Metrolink and the Surfliners.

-Fullerton offers a (clunky) cross-platform connection to the SWC...if timekeeping is good, you could transfer from the early Sunday X-Train to the EB Chief without /too/ much trouble. Sadly, the WB Chief to the X-Train is likely a non-starter for most folks, though with timekeeping there...a 5-hour hold can sadly be more "realistic" than "annoying".

-Finally, direct service into the southern part of the LA Metro area is, well, a separate market from direct service into the northern part of the area. The LA area is just so blasted big that it can viably merit two different services into different ends of the area.


----------



## GG-1

Aloha from Las Vegas

Some of the stories and comments here are over the top. The most recent from LVRJ quoted above make me concerned tha the X-train will ever start. And getting from Downtown to Fullerton will make visits with my kids so convenient

Not sure how much is BNSF and UP track but I question the terminal being Fullerton. There is only track 1 in Fullerton that accesses the track to Vegas, so how to the prep store the trains at that end? At the Vegas end behind the Plaza there are 3 tracks.

Downtown has a number of good hotels at great rates, most walkable from the Plaza station, The Plaza Station is in good shape, currently serving as a break room for Plaza employees. I go into the area every couple of months. The distance to the strip seems to be about 6 miles and the area between is not the best. Public transportation between Downtown and the Strip exist but is not very good. The Stratosphere and Sahara while technically the north end of the strip they are disconnected from the main strip hotels.

I really hope we get this service up, but some of these stories make me wonder if the participants are serious. I really believe that a month after agreements are made the train could run.

If you want to see pictures of the Plaza end go to RBBB Gallery as that was where it was stored.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

GG-1 said:


> Aloha from Las Vegas
> 
> Some of the stories and comments here are over the top. The most recent from LVRJ quoted above make me concerned tha the X-train will ever start. And getting from Downtown to Fullerton will make visits with my kids so convenient
> 
> Not sure how much is BNSF and UP track but I question the terminal being Fullerton. There is only track 1 in Fullerton that accesses the track to Vegas, so how to the prep store the trains at that end? At the Vegas end behind the Plaza there are 3 tracks.
> 
> Downtown has a number of good hotels at great rates, most walkable from the Plaza station, The Plaza Station is in good shape, currently serving as a break room for Plaza employees. I go into the area every couple of months. The distance to the strip seems to be about 6 miles and the area between is not the best. Public transportation between Downtown and the Strip exist but is not very good. The Stratosphere and Sahara while technically the north end of the strip they are disconnected from the main strip hotels.
> 
> I really hope we get this service up, but some of these stories make me wonder if the participants are serious. I really believe that a month after agreements are made the train could run.
> 
> If you want to see pictures of the Plaza end go to RBBB Gallery as that was where it was stored.


Tracks 1 and 3 (1 being the closest to the station buildings) at Fullerton can both access the mainline toward the Transcon and Vegas. The only track without access to the Transcon is the stub track recently built by Metrolink and OCTA.


----------



## GG-1

johnny.menhennet said:


> Tracks 1 and 3 (1 being the closest to the station buildings) at Fullerton can both access the mainline toward the Transcon and Vegas. The only track without access to the Transcon is the stub track recently built by Metrolink and OCTA.


Aloha

Johny I believe you are mistaken as when the Southwest Chief departs LAX it crosses to track 1 before the Fullerton station as the turn to the east (Riverside) is just south of the station.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

GG-1 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks 1 and 3 (1 being the closest to the station buildings) at Fullerton can both access the mainline toward the Transcon and Vegas. The only track without access to the Transcon is the stub track recently built by Metrolink and OCTA.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Johny I believe you are mistaken as when the Southwest Chief departs LAX it crosses to track 1 before the Fullerton station as the turn to the east (Riverside) is just south of the station.
Click to expand...

Right at the Lemon St. underpass, just east of the platforms used by the Surfliners, there is a crossover that would allow this to happen.


----------



## GG-1

johnny.menhennet said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks 1 and 3 (1 being the closest to the station buildings) at Fullerton can both access the mainline toward the Transcon and Vegas. The only track without access to the Transcon is the stub track recently built by Metrolink and OCTA.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Johny I believe you are mistaken as when the Southwest Chief departs LAX it crosses to track 1 before the Fullerton station as the turn to the east (Riverside) is just south of the station.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right at the Lemon St. underpass, just east of the platforms used by the Surfliners, there is a crossover that would allow this to happen.
Click to expand...

Aloha

After my post I looked at the Google maps of the area. Tracks 1 & 2 turn towards Riverside. The Platforms are on Tracks 1 & 3. There is no way that a train from track 3 can make the turn towards Riverside and reach Vegas. This is why the Desert Wind, when it ran, and Southwest Chief East bound board at track 1.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

GG-1 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tracks 1 and 3 (1 being the closest to the station buildings) at Fullerton can both access the mainline toward the Transcon and Vegas. The only track without access to the Transcon is the stub track recently built by Metrolink and OCTA.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Johny I believe you are mistaken as when the Southwest Chief departs LAX it crosses to track 1 before the Fullerton station as the turn to the east (Riverside) is just south of the station.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right at the Lemon St. underpass, just east of the platforms used by the Surfliners, there is a crossover that would allow this to happen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Aloha
> 
> After my post I looked at the Google maps of the area. Tracks 1 & 2 turn towards Riverside. The Platforms are on Tracks 1 & 3. There is no way that a train from track 3 can make the turn towards Riverside and reach Vegas. This is why the Desert Wind, when it ran, and Southwest Chief East bound board at track 1.
Click to expand...

I understand that without a crossover, it would be impossible for a train from the southbound (#3 as we're calling it) to get to Riverside. I still believe that that crossover exists though. I guess we'll just leave it here at a polite disagreement, both of us at least aware of the situation.


----------



## Trogdor

Both tracks 1 and 3 at Fullerton can proceed to the BNSF San Bernardino sub/Riverside. However, the Southwest Chief always uses track 1 due to the amount of checked baggage and the issues with getting that baggage across the tracks over to track 3.

Metrolink 700-series trains to Riverside will use track 3, because they do not have the checked baggage requirement. If the Chief did not have those baggage issues, it would use track 3 as well.

If you look on Google Earth, you'll see that there is a left-hand crossover immediately east of the platform at FUL that a train on track 3 could use to continue to Riverside.

Edit: Here's a view of the location (I'm not sure if this link leads directly to the Google Earth view, or if you have to go into the corner of the screen and change it manually): http://goo.gl/maps/P3CmM


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Trogdor said:


> Both tracks 1 and 3 at Fullerton can proceed to the BNSF San Bernardino sub/Riverside. However, the Southwest Chief always uses track 1 due to the amount of checked baggage and the issues with getting that baggage across the tracks over to track 3.
> 
> Metrolink 700-series trains to Riverside will use track 3, because they do not have the checked baggage requirement. If the Chief did not have those baggage issues, it would use track 3 as well.
> 
> If you look on Google Earth, you'll see that there is a left-hand crossover immediately east of the platform at FUL that a train on track 3 could use to continue to Riverside.
> 
> Edit: Here's a view of the location (I'm not sure if this link leads directly to the Google Earth view, or if you have to go into the corner of the screen and change it manually): http://goo.gl/maps/P3CmM


Thank you Trog. That is the crossover I was referring to.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

PPorro said:


> Sounds like an entertaining project to be watching.
> 
> Cars like these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look like two level?


Those are Superliners AFAIK, not the cars to be used on the X-Train or ex-Metra carts.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like an entertaining project to be watching.
> 
> Cars like these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look like two level?
> 
> 
> 
> Those are Superliners AFAIK, not the cars to be used on the X-Train or ex-Metra carts.
Click to expand...

Not quite. These are the Hi-Levels.


----------



## jis

So it looks like X-Train will be crewed by Amtrak.

From the S&P Report on _Las Vegas Railway Express Inc. (XTRN)_:



> The company has a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with AMTRAK to take
> 
> over passenger rail services along the Las Vegas to Los Angeles route and is
> 
> negotiating with AMTRAK to provide train and engine employees to operate the
> 
> locomotives. Las Vegas Railway needs to secure rail trackage rights over the two
> 
> Class I railroads owned by Burlington Northern Railway (BNSF) and Union Pacific
> 
> Railroad. XTRN has a preliminary agreement with Union Pacific but is still
> 
> negotiating with BNSF. Part of these negotiations include an agreement to pay a
> 
> competitive market rate in exchange for securing the ability to bypass slower and
> 
> longer freight trains in order to meet the X Train's schedule. According to these
> 
> agreements, BNSF and Union Pacific will continue to be responsible for track
> 
> maintenance.


You can see the whole report here


----------



## Anderson

You have no idea how strange it is to be actually getting passenger rail news off of stock market reports.

Actually, a corporate history question: It says in the report that Liberty Capital Asset Management bought out LVRE and took on their name. Who owned/ran the previous LVRE?


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Today at the NSRM we were discussing the Xtrain and we concluded the train would fit in the track schedule, what we could not figure out where the train would be serviced and stored in the California end of the route.


----------



## stntylr

If they are using Amtrak employees it would seem they would be planning on using the Amtrak yard in L.A.


----------



## Trogdor

stntylr said:


> If they are using Amtrak employees it would seem they would be planning on using the Amtrak yard in L.A.


Not necessarily. From what I can tell, the MoU only covers conductors and engineers.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

I don't know if I had seen it mentioned, but something that really needs to be done for the X-Train is to add a stop in San Bernardino. The Inland Empire is a huge market for Vegas, and nobody in their right mind will drive to Fullerton to go right back through San Bernardino/Riverside on the train. It would add 5-10 minutes, but be so worth it. Heck, you could even probably charge almost the same amount of money. It seems like in many of these plans, the IE is left out. I mean driving the 25-30 miles to Victorville would be really annoying, or much further if from Riverside.


----------



## afigg

More news on the X-Train. Las Vegas Railway Express states that they have reached an conditional agreement with Union Pacific to use UP tracks to Vegas. If the agreement holds, big step forward for the X-Train.



> LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwire - Nov 16, 2012) - Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. (LVRE) (OTCQB: XTRN) and Union Pacific Railroad have signed a conditional agreement to provide passenger service on Union Pacific-owned right of way between Las Vegas, Nev., and Daggett, Calif. This agreement is contingent upon LVRE fulfilling a variety of conditions in a specified time frame. LVRE plans to operate an expedited luxury train service between the Los Angeles basin and Las Vegas through the use of Union Pacific track. Known as the "X Train," the service is currently scheduled for commencement in late 2013.
> 
> "We are proud that Union Pacific is working with us on this exciting and historic project," commented Michael Barron, President and CEO of Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. "This moment will be long remembered as an important milestone in providing a great experience for X Train customers."


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Reading that article, it reinforces what I believe, that it will not be useful to Vegas residents wanting to go to the LA area


----------



## Anderson

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> Reading that article, it reinforces what I believe, that it will not be useful to Vegas residents wanting to go to the LA area


Which article?

And Rob: I tend to agree...this seems to be a case of "Get something, _anything_, running and go from there."

Edit:

I've glanced over LVRE's financials a few times. Right now, the objective seems to be to run the most simple, most straightforward operation possible with the least capital investment possible. That means only using two stations, grabbing old equipment, running a limited number of trains, etc.

If the operation is successful, I'd expect them to try to add sets of equipment, buy a few more slots in the schedule, and potentially add another couple of stations (San Bernadino and LAUS are the obvious ones). But let's all remember that even the San Joaquins began as one train per day OKJ-BFD and it's now 4/day OJK-BFD and 2/day OKJ-SAC. Even big things start small, and it's not like LVRE has a couple hundred million dollars laying around to buy three slots per day in each direction, build new stations, and buy new trains.


----------



## Rob_C

Johnny, I'd be very surprised if they don't add a San Bernardino stop as well as try to get a slot at LAUPT in fairly short order after establishing service. They're just scrambling to get *anything* going at this point.

Rob


----------



## afigg

A link to a SEC filing by Las Vegas Railway Express summarizing the agreement with UP was posted on Trainorders. Has some interesting numbers: LVRE has to place $27.4 million in escrow to reimburse UP for certain improvements prior to start of service, then LVRE has to place an additional $29.2 million in escrow within 2 years for additional improvements. That is a lot of money for a twice a week train service. Either LVRE has plans for expanded service, such as daily, in the future to justify $56.6 million in UP improvements or maybe they have casino backers who think they can use the X-Train service to attract enough high rollers from LA to justify the expense.

If LVRE does manage to pay for $56 million in UP track improvements and then goes under, Amtrak could use those track improvements to start their own LA to Las Vegas daily train, but with subsidies from either state of Nevada or the city of Las Vegas as a subsitute until the Xpress West HSR service is up and running.


----------



## Anderson

That's slightly steep, but in terms of the price of a slot in most cases does seem to run about $100 million for a once-daily round trip (or at least, that seems to be the working assumption in VA, all else being equal). So, that's ot actually an unreasonable price, especially considering that serious requests _do_ tend to vary in what they go for.


----------



## Rob_C

Wow, still a big chunk of change! But what about the *other* white elephant in the room? How much is BNSF going to want to run the train the other half of the way from FUL to BAR over Cajon?

Rob


----------



## afigg

Rob_C said:


> Wow, still a big chunk of change! But what about the *other* white elephant in the room? How much is BNSF going to want to run the train the other half of the way from FUL to BAR over Cajon?


Possibly not that much, except for full up trackage fees. There have been capacity and track improvements in the LA and Inland Empire region funded by the state, local, & federal governments for freight and Metrolink. The Colton flyover is supposed to be completed by 2013, IIRC. BNSF has completed upgrades to its Transcon line with a 3rd track. These improvements were called out in the 2007 Las Vegas to LA corridor service study, so the X-Train can take advantage of the improvements between Fullerton to Barstow by starting service late next year without having to pay for them. The upgrades that have not been done, if I following it right, are the upgrades for the UP line from Barstow to Vegas. I think much of the data, planning and backup documentation for the X-Train proposals come from that 2007 study.

Still, $27.4 million upfront to pay UP for track improvements is going to be a major test of how viable and real LVRE is. If they want to start service late 2013, I think they would have to put up the $27.4 million soon so UP can get started on the track upgrades.


----------



## cirdan

This seems to be about very big numbers.

It could of course be that because they are paying for the infrastructure upgrades, that UPRR will be soft on access charges.

It still makes me wonder how much revenue the X-train must be projecting?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Is the X-Trains seriously going to make a profit or will it just be a flop? Many private trains in the USs were supposed to make money but went bankrupt.


----------



## GG-1

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Many private trains in the USs were supposed to make money but went bankrupt.


Yet many bankrupt companies made millions for their owners.
Aloha


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

GG-1 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many private trains in the USs were supposed to make money but went bankrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet many bankrupt companies made millions for their owners.
> Aloha
Click to expand...

Oh, I mean, bankrupt then shut down.


----------



## Anderson

Swadian Hardcore said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many private trains in the USs were supposed to make money but went bankrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet many bankrupt companies made millions for their owners.
> Aloha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I mean, bankrupt then shut down.
Click to expand...

And how much did the C-suite folks at Hostess make over the last ten years?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many private trains in the USs were supposed to make money but went bankrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet many bankrupt companies made millions for their owners.
> Aloha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I mean, bankrupt then shut down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And how much did the C-suite folks at Hostess make over the last ten years?
Click to expand...

:help:


----------



## trainfan969

New article on the X-Train

http://www.latimes.com/travel/deals/la-trb-adults-party-train-oc-vegas-20121126,0,7115914.story


----------



## Anderson

You know, 13 months _might_ be enough to get this rolling. And the more I think about it, the more I could see one (or more) casinos backing this project.

And honestly, this project is selling itself to me as something I think I want to see succeed.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I do not support X-Train. I think that it won't work at all and that somebody should restore the DW instead. If this was not a "party train" then it would be a lot more useful.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I do not support X-Train. I think that it won't work at all and that somebody should restore the DW instead. If this was not a "party train" then it would be a lot more useful.


Clearly you don't understand WHY people WANT to go to Vegas then...


----------



## MikefromCrete

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I do not support X-Train. I think that it won't work at all and that somebody should restore the DW instead. If this was not a "party train" then it would be a lot more useful.


The Reno fun train, a similar operation on a smaller scale, has been running successfully since before the start of Amtrak. No reason this can't be a success. And, it's not an inter-city operation, it's an excursion train aimed at a distinct audience. If successful, they'll probably add trains to the schedule which will be convenient for Las Vegas residents. We'll see.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not support X-Train. I think that it won't work at all and that somebody should restore the DW instead. If this was not a "party train" then it would be a lot more useful.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly you don't understand WHY people WANT to go to Vegas then...
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I do understand. But that is the main reason why I don't support this train.



MikefromCrete said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not support X-Train. I think that it won't work at all and that somebody should restore the DW instead. If this was not a "party train" then it would be a lot more useful.
> 
> 
> 
> The Reno fun train, a similar operation on a smaller scale, has been running successfully since before the start of Amtrak. No reason this can't be a success. And, it's not an inter-city operation, it's an excursion train aimed at a distinct audience. If successful, they'll probably add trains to the schedule which will be convenient for Las Vegas residents. We'll see.
Click to expand...

That dosen't mean I have to support it, since I am an opponent of gambling.


----------



## GG-1

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That dosen't mean I have to support it, since I am an opponent of gambling.


Aloha
This statement is sad as it suggest that there is nothing else to do here but gamble. From my viewpoint this town has more theater than about any other city than New York.

Besides if you have the right attitude what is wrong with playing a few games?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

GG-1 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That dosen't mean I have to support it, since I am an opponent of gambling.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> This statement is sad as it suggest that there is nothing else to do here but gamble. From my viewpoint this town has more theater than about any other city than New York.
> 
> Besides if you have the right attitude what is wrong with playing a few games?
Click to expand...

That is not the problem. The reason I said that was in response to "Clearly you don't understand why people want to go to Vegas." I didn't that that Vegas is bad, I mean that the party train is bad because of gambling.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That dosen't mean I have to support it, since I am an opponent of gambling.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> This statement is sad as it suggest that there is nothing else to do here but gamble. From my viewpoint this town has more theater than about any other city than New York.
> 
> Besides if you have the right attitude what is wrong with playing a few games?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is not the problem. The reason I said that was in response to "Clearly you don't understand why people want to go to Vegas." I didn't that that Vegas is bad, I mean that the party train is bad because of gambling.
Click to expand...

The train will not have any real money gambling-type stuff involved. People will play games for prizes rather than money, to keep it legal.


----------



## Anderson

UP put the kibosh on any formal gambling on trains operating on their tracks a few years ago in a rather terse statement when this and the Z-Train were both running around. Now the Z-Train? That's one I'm glad died, since it was setting up to be a circus on wheels.

As to opinions on gambling, I have mixed opinions. I don't like slots, I like blackjack (nostalgia since I played with my father and with some of his hunting buddies growing up), but generally it's not my thing. With that said...I know the cause-effect is one way around, but I'll put up with some casinos to get train service.


----------



## CHamilton

From Forbes:

The $100 Million 'X Train' Will Be A Party From L.A. To Vegas



> Getting there should be half the fun, but it usually isn’t. Nevada-based entrepreneur and CEO of the X Train, Michael Barron, is out to change that — hoping to make travel from Southern California to Las Vegas a joyride.
> For decades, problems such as rising gasoline prices and traffic congestion on I-15 have aggravated Vegas-bound weekenders. Aware that one-third of Las Vegas’ tourists hail from the L.A. area, Barron saw an opportunity to address such issues. In 2009, he founded Las Vegas Railway Express and incorporated as Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc., a publicly traded Delaware Corporation. He has since acquired a staff of ten team members to help execute the vision from their Nevada-based office. The idea of running an express rail service from Southern California to Las Vegas is nothing new, but the “X Train” is far from anything that’s existed in the past.
> 
> The 21+ adult party train will depart from the Amtrak station in Fullerton, CA, just outside of L.A., and cruise into the heart of Las Vegas on Thursdays, Fridays, Sundays and Mondays — the heaviest travel days. Tickets for the five-hour ride will cost $99 each way, and include a meal and beverage. Barron hopes that the 600-passenger X Train will make its first trip by NYE 2013, but there are still logistical hurdles to overcome in the in the next year.


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## Anderson

Huh...looks like they've bulked up the travel schedule. Assuming that trips are available in both directions on all days, 4x weekly isn't bad for something like this. Naturally, we'd all likely prefer either daily or, failing that, 6x weekly (with Tuesday or Wednesday skipped), but this is somewhat more heartening and for all the comments about it being a "party train", it looks increasingly functional (if on the nicer end) and less "locked" to the tourist market the way it was looking for a while.


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## CHamilton

A fascinating post on the Facebook Amtrak group.



> The X-Train is coming 2013. Fullerton to Las Vegas. Are you ready? All aboard! www.vegasxtrain.com (Wanted! Amtrak Conductors and Engineers)


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## George Harris

CHamilton said:


> A fascinating post on the Facebook Amtrak group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The X-Train is coming 2013. Fullerton to Las Vegas. Are you ready? All aboard! www.vegasxtrain.com (Wanted! Amtrak Conductors and Engineers)
Click to expand...

Flying pig alert, flying pig alert!!!


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## CHamilton

Dear new readers of Amtrak Unlimited (assuming there are any after the end of the world),

Please be advised that the regular posters on this board (including me) aren't _generally_ as grouchy and cynical as we've been lately. I think some of us have S.A.D. or M.A.D. (Mudslide Affective Disorder) or something. We're really a lot nicer, especially when we're riding trains. 

Sincerely,

CHamilton


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## AmtrakBlue

CHamilton said:


> Dear new readers of Amtrak Unlimited (assuming there are any after the end of the world),
> 
> Please be advised that the regular posters on this board (including me) aren't _generally_ as grouchy and cynical as we've been lately. I think some of us have S.A.D. or M.A.D. (Mudslide Affective Disorder) or something. We're really a lot nicer, especially when we're riding trains.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> CHamilton


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## Ryan

Hey, speak for yourself! I'm always this grouchy and cynical!


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## Anderson

George Harris said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> A fascinating post on the Facebook Amtrak group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The X-Train is coming 2013. Fullerton to Las Vegas. Are you ready? All aboard! www.vegasxtrain.com (Wanted! Amtrak Conductors and Engineers)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Flying pig alert, flying pig alert!!!
Click to expand...

The fact that the guy posting it seems to work for Amtrak...well, it does add some credibility to this.


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## afigg

Bump.

We had several posts in recent days that Las Vegas Railways Express, the company behind the X-Train, sent out an announcement to shareholders that they were planning to use the X-Train equipment to provide excursions or trips on an existing Amtrak train. All very vague. But the news ended up in the Xpress West HSR thread with people repeatedly confusing the two companies and their plans. There has been little follow-up, so I figured I bump the X-Train thread to steer any discussions to here.

Checking the X-Train website, the most recent news announcement was in May about a new Chairman of the Board and a new director on the board.


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## GG-1

Aloha

Here is an update that appeared in the Review Journal, a Vegas local Paper. http://www.reviewjournal.com/view/north/x-train-set-have-hub-north-las-vegas


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## gswager

10 miles north of the Strip? Doesn't sound like a good one.


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## afigg

gswager said:


> 10 miles north of the Strip? Doesn't sound like a good one.


A station in North Vegas is odd. There could be any number of reasons. The land and needed facilities could have been too expensive close to the Strip. The North Vegas location is cheaper and all they could afford. The property is part of a real estate development deal, perhaps not entirely aboveboard.

This is an X-Train move that raises more questions that it answers about the prospects for the X-Train to start someday running passenger trains.


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## GG-1

Looking at a satellite map of N.Vegas there is a large siding just off the main line that may be their reason, a good place to hold the train for the weekend. This location is so close to I-15 any hotel is maybe 15 minutes away.

Aloha

btw: they are telling stockholders a test run in Oct. and Scheduled run for the New Year Weekend.


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## Anderson

Ok, let me take up a position in LVRE's shoes. Assuming there's no real estate development attached to this, then I'd guess that we're looking at a plan for a single station-and-maintenance-facility location. My guess is that the Plaza location would have required a separate turning facility, so they would have needed two locations in Las Vegas, not one, so this is a cost-saving measure. Moreover, the Plaza location isn't bad, but it's not great.

So, shifting back to LVRE's shoes, I'd go for whatever I could afford...which probably means "not near the Strip" right now. It is plausible that, presuming the operation is a success, they would want to set up a second station actually _at_ the Strip somewhere but that such just isn't in the cards right now. 'course, it's also possible that negotiations with the Plaza folks went south and this is a dubious "Plan B" that got shoved together in the face of an increasingly tight deadline.


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## GG-1

Aloha

Today's Review Journal, local paper, had this article http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/railway-company-outlines-us-expansion-plans-vegas-la-service-pushed-back Not very favorable.


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## RobertB

Looks like a lot of what us in the software business call "vaporware". When you're about to miss your release date, add a bunch more features (none of which you've actually created or even really planned) and try to keep the hype machine moving.

Here's one interesting statement - maybe they should have just started with private car service in the first place?



> Nevertheless, Las Vegas Railway said it has identified several corridors across the country where it would attach as many as eight luxury cars to existing Amtrak trains, starting with Houston to New Orleans later this year. Amtrak did not respond to question about whether such a deal was in place.


The most telling tidbit is the one that didn't get mentioned. They're out $600k to UP unless they ponied up additional dough - back in March.



> The status of a deal to use Union Pacific tracks from Las Vegas to Daggett, Calif., was unclear. The company said it has paid a $600,000 deposit with Union Pacific that it would lose if it did not post another $27.4 million letter of credit by March 31. Union Pacific set a price of $56 million to cover all the trackage rights fees and improvements needed to run freight and passenger trains on the same line.
> 
> The annual report and other company releases didn’t say whether the terms were met or whether the agreement was canceled by missing the deadline.


If you make that deadline, you tell the world. If you don't...


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## VentureForth

Alright railfans! Put your money where your mouth is! 7.5 CENTS per share!!! We can all become massive millionaires if we all just invest $1000 each and tell all our friends, too! This is going to be a HUGE success! No way they'll lose.

[/sarcasm]


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## RobertB

Seven and a half cents? It was just seven cents this morning. That's a seven percent increase in a day! That means that at this time next year, each share will be worth $8,736,189,635.44 (give or take a few thousand bucks). Looks like we'd better get on board and become billionaires!

Disclaimer: Some of the information on this Forum Posting may contain projections or other forward-looking statements regarding future events or the future financial performance of the Company. We wish to caution you that these statements are only predictions and that actual events or results may differ materially. Exponential growth would not be a realistic expectation, even if this company weren't selling oceanfront property in Arizona Nevada. Also, math - _learn it._


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## afigg

Another Las Vegas Review Journal article on LVRE which makes me wonder just how shaky the prospects are for the X-Train. Before one goes public with the idea of connecting luxury cars to an Amtrak LD train, I think most people would agree that would be a good idea to have extended discussions with Amtrak first.

Amtrak: No discussions on LV Railway attaching lounge cars

Excerpt:



> An Amtrak spokeswoman said that there are no plans or even discussions to have the Las Vegas Railway Express attach luxury lounge cars to trains running between Houston and New Orleans.
> Las Vegas Railway, a penny-stock company that has also announced it would start passenger rail service between Las Vegas and the Los Angeles area but never performed, made the new route a centerpiece of its annual report filed July 1 with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The company said it would look at attaching luxury cars to several Amtrak routes, setting the start for Houston-New Orleans as the fourth quarter of this year.
> 
> “There have been no discussions regarding the Southwest Limited,” said Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham, referring to the name of the train.


Southwest Limited? My guess is that the reporter jumbled up the SWC with the Sunset Limited because LVRE stated they were looking at several Amtrak routes.


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## VentureForth

This is really the part that gets me:



> Las Vegas Railway has made announcements in the past without informing others involved, such as once saying it would include a gaming car on trains between Las Vegas and Southern California. Union Pacific, which owns about half of the tracks, strongly objected and pushed Las Vegas Railway to drop all mention of it.



This just appears to be a big group of arrogant railfans who don't have a clue about railroading.

They are at 6 cents today.

The problem is that they have no assets. Nothing to sell when they run out of cash. Half of their listed assets is cash and the other half is intangible, including $800,000 of "goodwill".

Another fundamental flaw of fledgling companies is announcing products before they are ready - which is what this Amtrak stuff is about - AND before they are successful with their primary venture.

It's very interesting - I used to work for a start up company and the flamboyant CEO made that comment. Then announced a new product, even though the first one wasn't successful yet. Guess what? They bankrupted.


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## jis

GG-1 said:


> Looking at a satellite map of N.Vegas there is a large siding just off the main line that may be their reason, a good place to hold the train for the weekend. This location is so close to I-15 any hotel is maybe 15 minutes away.
> Aloha
> 
> btw: they are telling stockholders a test run in Oct. and Scheduled run for the New Year Weekend.


Just curious..... how much construction of anything resembling a station has taken place at the station site? Or are they just planning to use an Amslab .... er an LVRSlab as the station for starters?


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## George Harris

afigg said:


> Another Las Vegas Review Journal article on LVRE which makes me wonder just how shaky the prospects are for the X-Train. Before one goes public with the idea of connecting luxury cars to an Amtrak LD train, I think most people would agree that would be a good idea to have extended discussions with Amtrak first.
> Amtrak: No discussions on LV Railway attaching lounge cars
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Amtrak spokeswoman said that there are no plans or even discussions to have the Las Vegas Railway Express attach luxury lounge cars to trains running between Houston and New Orleans.
> Las Vegas Railway, a penny-stock company that has also announced it would start passenger rail service between Las Vegas and the Los Angeles area but never performed, made the new route a centerpiece of its annual report filed July 1 with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The company said it would look at attaching luxury cars to several Amtrak routes, setting the start for Houston-New Orleans as the fourth quarter of this year.
> 
> “There have been no discussions regarding the Southwest Limited,” said Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham, referring to the name of the train.
> 
> 
> 
> Southwest Limited? My guess is that the reporter jumbled up the SWC with the Sunset Limited because LVRE stated they were looking at several Amtrak routes.
Click to expand...

Southwest limited is probably the right name. The connection would be at Barstow, about 160 miles from LA. It gets closer to Las Vegas than the Sunset Limited. Its closest point is only about 40 miles out of LA, which would make the connection hardly worthwhile. I have no idea of what "several" Amtrak routes they could be looking at otherwise. The whole thing appears to be nothing more than hot air.


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## CHamilton

An X Train press release announced that it had



> terminated its agreement with Union Pacific Railroad effective October 31, 2013 citing an alternative capital plan which will relieve the Company from raising $100 million from its own equity to finance the LA to Las Vegas rail route.


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## afigg

Yep, the prospects for the X-Train do not look good. A google search turns up a number of news story on the latest change of course for the X-Train plans. Las Vegas Review-Journal: Plans for party train between Las Vegas-L.A. derailed. An excerpt:



> But in its second-quarter report filed Tuesday, the company disclosed that it had scrapped its previously announced strategy of raising $100 million to launch the service, including paying the Union Pacific Railroad $67 million to improve and expand its tracks between Las Vegas and Daggett, Calif.
> 
> *As a result, the company forfeited a $600,000 deposit paid to Union Pacific last year.*
> 
> When the Union Pacific deal was announced one year ago, Las Vegas Railway Express CEO Michael Barron said in a statement, This moment will be long remembered as an important milestone in providing a great experience for X Train customers.
> 
> Barron promised an inaugural run on the upcoming New Years Eve, one of several start dates that have gone by the boards. The initial concept called for a $99 fare each way, including food and drink, for about a five-hour ride.
> 
> The quarterly report said the company will pursue an off balance sheet deal being put together by unidentified investors to restart Amtrak service for the first time since 1997, with X Train party cars attached.
> 
> Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham said in a statement, They have approached us but we have no agreement.


The boldface on the forfeit of $600K to UP is mine. Well, at least, UP got some money out of this. I think a daily Amtrak LA to Vegas train could be successful, however it would need funding and support from CA and NV. Meanwhile, I guess the Las Vegas Railway Express management will continue to announce plans without having signed agreements with Amtrak or anyone else first.


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## GG-1

afigg said:


> I think a daily Amtrak LA to Vegas train could be successful, however it would need funding and support from CA and NV. Meanwhile, I guess the Las Vegas Railway Express management will continue to announce plans without having signed agreements with Amtrak or anyone else first.


Aloha

When I tracked down the North Las Vegas location last month for the X-train station I had my doubts about their ability to complete, or intentions to complete the project. This location is in the middle of scrap yards, and industrial locations. Also the stated "5 minutes to the strip hotels" is bogus from the station location. At the 5:00pm scheduled arrival time the traffic would require maybe an hour to get to the strip hotels.

Since both states failed to support the Desert Wind so under what assumption do they think their apparent pipe dream would the states support them.

I am extremely disappointed.


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## jis

The _Southwest Chief_ was called the _Southwest Limited_ before Santa Fe allowed Amtrak to use the word "_Chief_" again. I guess the Amtrak guy just remembered the old name.


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## ALC Rail Writer

jis said:


> The _Southwest Chief_ was called the _Southwest Limited_ before Santa Fe allowed Amtrak to use the word "_Chief_" again. I guess the Amtrak *guy* just remembered the old name.


Eh hem.



> Amtrak *spokeswoman* Vernae Graham


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## CHamilton

From the AP report, it sounds like X Train just can't raise the money they need.



> Railway Express said it still needs to raise $1 million for the California-Vegas route and added, "there is no assurance such funding will be available on terms acceptable to the company, or at all."


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## jis

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The _Southwest Chief_ was called the _Southwest Limited_ before Santa Fe allowed Amtrak to use the word "_Chief_" again. I guess the Amtrak *guy* just remembered the old name.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh hem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak *spokeswoman* Vernae Graham
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I (and many others that I know) have been known to often use the term "guy" to refer to a person irrespective of gender or sexual orientation.  So this is nothing new. If someone wants to obsess over it, well .... :expect to keep obsessing for a long long time


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## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The _Southwest Chief_ was called the _Southwest Limited_ before Santa Fe allowed Amtrak to use the word "_Chief_" again. I guess the Amtrak *guy* just remembered the old name.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh hem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak *spokeswoman* Vernae Graham
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I (and many others that I know) have been known to often use the term "guy" to refer to a person irrespective of gender or sexual orientation.  So this is nothing new. If someone wants to obsess over it, well .... :expect to keep obsessing for a long long time P
Click to expand...

I too use guy for males & females.


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## Bob Dylan

This must be a Northern thing!  Here in the South/Southwest '"Guy" means a Male! I would compare it to "Dude" which Definitely is a Term used for a Male!


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## CHamilton

Press release:

X Train to Seek Strategic Public Private Partnerships to Roll Out High End Service on Existing Passenger Rail Routes



> LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwired - Dec 2, 2013) - The Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc. (OTCQB: XTRND), known as the X Train, a planned luxury train travel service featuring its "Club X" service, announced today that the Company is seeking to create Public Private Partnerships with existing passenger rail services, to provide a high end Club Style service on selected existing routes. The concept, set to deploy this coming year, has the X Train providing its own club style and upscale rail cars which are planned to be coupled to existing passenger trains. The X Train plans to pay for the incremental cost of hauling the additional cars plus a revenue participation in the X Train revenue stream for participating rail agencies.


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## Bob Dylan

Hooked to WHAT Passenger Trains? The Desert Wind Perhaps??


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## jis

In another screed they did say Southwest Limited


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## Blackwolf

Seems to me that they're looking at what Iowa Pacific is doing with their Pullman Rail Journeys.


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## jis

Blackwolf said:


> Seems to me that they're looking at what Iowa Pacific is doing with their Pullman Rail Journeys.


Exactly!


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## Paulus

jimhudson said:


> Hooked to WHAT Passenger Trains? The Desert Wind Perhaps??


More like a party car on the Surfliner or other route it seems. It's not necessarily a bad idea, I've floated the idea before that a CCC as a bar/grill car or regular diner cars (with a quick turnaround men/service) might do reasonably well on the busier routes or trains. Friday night Surfliners will easily get 1000 passengers between LA and San Diego in the off-season, I'd be surprised at not being able to recoup marginal costs of such a venture (there may be other issues at play of course like regulations concerning platform length). Wouldn't trust X-Train with it of course.


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## Blackwolf

I don't know. I have great difficulty in understanding just WHO X-Train is, nevermind what kind of incredible funding sources they advertise as having. But this line really has me scratching my head: "The first such delivery of Club X Train cars is scheduled to start this month as the cars begin arriving December 9th here in Las Vegas."

Uh, do we have anyone with an idea as to which railcar manufacturer has been secretly building and/or refurbishing existing stock behind our backs? I mean, the 9th is next Monday! :help:


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## RobertB

Maybe it's one of these? 







I like the facepalm on the guy in the background. Seems apropos to the current thread.

(Source: http://www.railroadhandcar.com/history/handcar-photos.php)


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## Anderson

It seems like they're now trying to recoup the cost of the initial cost of buying those cars to begin with.

With that said, I agree...some sort of "Club" service on the CA routes (peak-hour Surfliners come to mind) and/or the diner proposal mentioned on the last page (even a "light diner", so to speak) would likely make sense LAX-SAN given the sheer traffic loads. If CA could get something running LAX-BFD, there would almost assuredly be room for such a service LAX-EMY via the Central Valley.

I'm trying to think of other candidate routes for such a service that could clear the Gallery Cars (and presumably wouldn't require overnight service).


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## jis

CA managing to twist UP and BNSF's arms sufficiently to be allowed to operate any regular passenger service over Tehachapi without first doing some significant capacity enhancement work on the segment would be quite a coup, if they can pull it off.


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## Anderson

I'm not saying they could pull it off, merely noting that such a service would likely be popular.


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## Paulus

Anderson said:


> I'm not saying they could pull it off, merely noting that such a service would likely be popular.


The popularity of it is an interesting question actually. The San Joaquin Daylight took 4.5-5 hours Bakersfield to Los Angeles while the bus bridge is only 2:15 (a tilting train could probably reduce that figure though). That limits the number of frequencies you can run (probably just a single in each direction) and a lot of people will prefer to take the bus instead for the time savings. My bet is that most ridership gains (above and beyond that for an additional frequency) would be from service to the Antelope Valley and induced ridership from people like me who refuse to take a bus connection or bustitution (nothing against such things in principle, I'm just horribly prone to motion sickness). A 5am departure from San Diego, departing LA at 8am for 12:30 arrival at Bakersfield and 6:00pm at Sacramento (or 6:30pm Oakland) holds some definite promise however, just as an extra frequency on those sections.


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## Anderson

Paulus said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying they could pull it off, merely noting that such a service would likely be popular.
> 
> 
> 
> The popularity of it is an interesting question actually. The San Joaquin Daylight took 4.5-5 hours Bakersfield to Los Angeles while the bus bridge is only 2:15 (a tilting train could probably reduce that figure though). That limits the number of frequencies you can run (probably just a single in each direction) and a lot of people will prefer to take the bus instead for the time savings. My bet is that most ridership gains (above and beyond that for an additional frequency) would be from service to the Antelope Valley and induced ridership from people like me who refuse to take a bus connection or bustitution (nothing against such things in principle, I'm just horribly prone to motion sickness). A 5am departure from San Diego, departing LA at 8am for 12:30 arrival at Bakersfield and 6:00pm at Sacramento (or 6:30pm Oakland) holds some definite promise however, just as an extra frequency on those sections.
Click to expand...

Well, the route would have several distinct markets added:

-Tourists (since Tehachapi is quite beautiful and impressive, and it would make some "loop" packages sellable)

-Travelers between current lines who don't want to screw with a transfer (or two)

-Antelope Valley line passengers (this would be impacted by timing, of course)

-Endpoint-ish traffic

-Possible XW transfers

The latter seems to be a small market, with the others being fairly big by comparison. I think the tourist angle shouldn't be underestimated...a LAX-EMY-LAX (or vice-versa) package going Tehachapi one way and SLO the other likely has some promise. When you add in the folks who either shun buses in general or who don't like the idea of transferring (particularly multiple times) if they can help it...it adds up.

Also, I think you might see two or three trains per day on the route: One SAN-LAX-BFD-SAC/EMY, one LAX-BFD-SAC/EMY, and one SAN-LAX-BFD. Especially if you can sub this in for an off-peak Metrolink run and/or use it as a possible Xpress West connection at Palmdale?


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## Paulus

Good point about the tourism; don't know how I overlooked it given how excited all the railroad boards get whenever there's a Tehachapi detour. Does have a slight downside in that it would need to involve an overnight hotel stay, but I'm sure Amtrak would be happy to create and sell that package (or one for taking the Zephyr over the Rockies instead). As for multiple frequencies, I'd honestly be really surprised if we could get more than a single round trip's worth of slots over both the Antelope Valley Line and Tehachapi. Tehachapi along would probably require a minor miracle, but that'd still be faster than getting Union Pacific to let the Daylight up the coast. Wouldn't expect service before 2020 though and that's with California increasing the capacity of Tehachapi (which it is already doing anyhow for freight, partnering with BNSF).


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## afigg

Blackwolf said:


> I don't know. I have great difficulty in understanding just WHO X-Train is, nevermind what kind of incredible funding sources they advertise as having. But this line really has me scratching my head: "The first such delivery of Club X Train cars is scheduled to start this month as the cars begin arriving December 9th here in Las Vegas."
> 
> Uh, do we have anyone with an idea as to which railcar manufacturer has been secretly building and/or refurbishing existing stock behind our backs? I mean, the 9th is next Monday! :help:


LVRE brought bi-level cars last year, according to them 12 cars, apparently all 1950s vintage Santa Fe bi-levels. The purchase of the cars was discussed earlier in this thread back in 2012. LVRE press release from last year on buying additional cars.

So they will have 12 cars, well maybe depending on whether they really have money to rebuild them, but don't have any place to run them unless Amtrak or CalTrans is willing to work with them. The whole X-Train thing has been rather shaky and muddled from the start.


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## John Bredin

Paulus said:


> Tehachapi along would probably require a minor miracle, but that'd still be faster than getting Union Pacific to let the Daylight up the coast.


Sorry to hijack a bit, but the latter part of this sentence intrigues me.

Amtrak runs two Surfliner round-trips as far north as San Luis Obispo, in addition to the Coast Starlight, so the capacity is clearly there south of SLO. What militates against extending one of those two "slots" up to San Jose, other than UP intransigence?  Is there a major reduction in capacity north of SLO -- fewer sidings, etc.? Is there a major increase in freight traffic north of SLO -- agricultural traffic from Salinas?

I'm asking honestly as a Midwesterner who's never been to California and thus has to rely on the Amtrak website and Google Maps. :hi:


----------



## afigg

John Bredin said:


> Sorry to hijack a bit, but the latter part of this sentence intrigues me.
> 
> Amtrak runs two Surfliner round-trips as far north as San Luis Obispo, in addition to the Coast Starlight, so the capacity is clearly there south of SLO. What militates against extending one of those two "slots" up to San Jose, other than UP intransigence?  Is there a major reduction in capacity north of SLO -- fewer sidings, etc.? Is there a major increase in freight traffic north of SLO -- agricultural traffic from Salinas?
> 
> I'm asking honestly as a Midwesterner who's never been to California and thus has to rely on the Amtrak website and Google Maps. :hi:


What you are asking about would be the Coast Daylight train which would run from downtown SF to San Jose to LA. It has been in the plans/wish-list for many years and is part of the latest California State Rail plan. It has been stalled because of funding, not given priority, reaching an agreement with UP on track and capacity upgrade projects, and probably the lack of enough rolling stock. With the jolt of additional state funds for conventional passenger rail projects that passed the state legislature earlier this year and the award of the contract to build bi-level corridor cars, the Coast Daylight service could actually start in 3 or 4 years. But the last I read the Coast Daylight is still in the drawn out negotiation stage with UP.


----------



## Blackwolf

From my limited understanding, Union Pacific has very little freight traffic that travels north of SLO along the the "Coast Line." It is the shortest route by rail between LA and SF and used to be a major mainline for Southern Pacific prior to the 1996 merger, but Union Pacific nowadays routes nearly all of their intra-state north-south traffic along the San Joaquin Valley route due to it being mostly double-tracked and relatively flat set of trackage, minus the part going over the Tehachapi Pass of course. As a result, the northern Coast Line receives far less maintenance, is mostly single-track with passing sidings for most of its route, and in the last few years has been plagued with troubles from SP-era antiquated signals and grade crossing equipment malfunctions.

If you told me one of the reasons UP has dragged its feet on signal upgrades and other capital improvements to the route was because they're fully expecting the State of California to pay them Big Buck$$$ for the Coast Daylight, I'd not doubt it for an instant.


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## Paulus

The slot thing is complicated as all get out with the Daylight and dates back to slot purchases made from Southern Pacific by the state. If memory serves, one of the SLO Surfliners is considered by the state to be a truncated one with slot rights to San Jose. UP is saying that they don't have enough capacity at present and they want the state to pay for CTC and powered switches as I recall. There's talk that California may file a complaint with the STB over the issue.


----------



## Blackwolf

Paulus said:


> The slot thing is complicated as all get out with the Daylight and dates back to slot purchases made from Southern Pacific by the state. If memory serves, one of the SLO Surfliners is considered by the state to be a truncated one with slot rights to San Jose. UP is saying that they don't have enough capacity at present and they want the state to pay for CTC and powered switches as I recall. *There's talk that California may file a complaint with the STB over the issue.*


I hope they do! If the State paid for the rights all the way up to San Jose, they should be able to use those rights. Get the legal ball rolling now so that, when the new cars start arriving en-mass in two years, all Amtrak California needs to do is add their fourth official train to the timetables and get service under way.


----------



## Anderson

Blackwolf said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The slot thing is complicated as all get out with the Daylight and dates back to slot purchases made from Southern Pacific by the state. If memory serves, one of the SLO Surfliners is considered by the state to be a truncated one with slot rights to San Jose. UP is saying that they don't have enough capacity at present and they want the state to pay for CTC and powered switches as I recall. *There's talk that California may file a complaint with the STB over the issue.*
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they do! If the State paid for the rights all the way up to San Jose, they should be able to use those rights. Get the legal ball rolling now so that, when the new cars start arriving en-mass in two years, all Amtrak California needs to do is add their fourth official train to the timetables and get service under way.
Click to expand...

This has been my understanding for a while as well: CA bought four slots back in the 70s. I forget the exact status of those slots (I think this was about the time CA put together funding for the San Joaquin, and things are a little muddled there), but I specifically remember hearing about four slots.

The question is how many of those went through to San Jose/Oakland/San Francisco. I'm fairly certain that one did, but it might be all four (bearing in mind that there's likely not much traffic that gets added/dropped between San Jose and San Luis Obispo, a slot to SLO may as well be one all the way through).

(Of course, a real question is to what extent is UP actually using the capacity on the Coast Line versus just dumping everything they can on Tehachapi)


----------



## Blackwolf

Alright, I just spent the last two hours and change reading through most of the 2013 California State Rail Plan and gained some considerable insight I had not enjoyed before. I'd gotten most of my information until this point from other blogs, personal conversations and various media/public information outlets. 

Anyhow, there is a considerable portion listed on the X-Train and all other proposed/planned/dreamed-up ideas for expanding rail (both passenger and freight) within the state of California. In regard to the Coast Daylight, it really sums up the route like this:


The UPRR Coast Subdivision officially runs from San Luis Obispo north to Gilroy; Gilroy to San Jose is jointly operated by, and from San Jose north is fully is owned and operated by PCJPA (CalTrain.)
The UPRR Coast Subdivision is extremely lightly used, consisting almost entirely of end-point freight distribution with local light movements. The two daily Amtrak trains (#11 and 14 _Coast Starlight_) are the only regularly-scheduled movements running the full length of the line.
The entire UPRR-owned subdivision is a single-tracked automatic block system protected line, with 100% manually-operated switches allowing access to a limited number of passing sidings. Trains operate on track warrants issued via radio dispatcher.
CalTrans does have at least two slots (or one daily round-trip) running from LAUS to San Francisco 4th and King station which it bought from Southern Pacific in 1978. The terms of those slots mean that SCRRA (Metrolink) UPRR, and PCJPA (CalTrain) must honor them.
Unlike the three other major service expansion plans for Amtrak California (San Joaquin to Redding, Capitol Corridor to Reno, entirely new route to the Coachella Valley,) the UPRR actually is amicable to the Coast Daylight service, where-as they flat out said "_*HELL NO"*_ to the others.
Only one additional station would need to be built for this service, but it would not need to be in place for service to begin and it would be at the local government's expense to build.
The Rail Plan states that service would be able to start in April of 2015, pending agreements to use already reserved slots with UPRR and CalTrain.

So, trying to tie this back into X-Train, I suppose the answer is still awaiting a jury to deliver. Sure, they could look to run one of their cars on a train like this and charge a 1st class fare accordingly. Could we have a _Coast Daylight_ once again running between San Francisco and Los Angeles by 2015? I'm thinking that date has a good chance of slipping, but 2016-17 could be more believable. Only time can tell.


----------



## afigg

Blackwolf said:


> If you told me one of the reasons UP has dragged its feet on signal upgrades and other capital improvements to the route was because they're fully expecting the State of California to pay them Big Buck$$$ for the Coast Daylight, I'd not doubt it for an instant.


yes, UP may indeed be waiting for CA to pay up for capital improvements on the route so they can save on spending their own money. The latest California State Rail Plan was released in May 2013 with the full set of reports available on this webpage for the different corridors. There is a rather extensive 170 page report for the Coast Daylight route under the title Final 2013 Coast Corridor Service Development Plan. I've only skimmed it, but the Coast Daylight may be further off than I thought because the study talks about a 2020 service ridership projection. There is an engineering study underway for new cost estimates, but the report has old estimates adjusted to 2012 dollars of $115 million for track upgrades and $100 million for signal upgrades between Gilroy and San Luis Obispo. If this is ever done, the Coast Starlight would obviously benefit as well.

But we are [SIZE=12pt]definitely [/SIZE] wandering off-topic from the X-Train. To get back on topic, if there was a currently running Coast Daylight service from San Francisco to LA, there might be a market for a couple of luxury cars on the train with dining service for a day trip. Both cities have a sizable population of wealthy or high net income people and are major destination cities for tourists. Add the luxury cars on Fridays and weekends for sightseeing trips between LA and SF.

PS I see Blackwolf posted what he got from the CA State Rail plan documents while I was writing this post!


----------



## Anderson

I tend to concur with that idea...the amount of sleeper turnover in the Bay Area (day sales of rooms EMY/OKJ-LAX) is indicative of this as well. I could see them being able to load 3-4 cars (1-2 coaches and a car that's either food service or mixed food service/lounge/coach space) onto the train with some regularity.


----------



## Blackwolf

Looks like the first two cars are on the rails, moving west on today's #5(22) with a scheduled hand-off in Salt Lake City to UP for final transit to Las Vegas, NV.

https://www.facebook.com/TheXTrain/posts/10152193918849893?stream_ref=1

(Not my Facebook post, but was linked to it from TrainOrders.)


----------



## Anderson

Oh my...single-level stainless steel cars? Those are _beautiful_ cars. I want them to succeed _so_ badly, you have no idea.


----------



## afigg

LVRE has revised their website with a bunch of possible travel excursions. I think their business plan is throw a whole lot of proposals and ideas against the wall and see if anything sticks.

There is an investor presentation on the website under Rail Car Funding that states these cars are leased from Mid America Railcar, are being refurbed in Indiana (Beech Grove??), and that the schedule is to get 20 cars by the end of 2014 (presumably if they can get investors). Where did these cars originally come from?

On the Facebook page, XTrain posted this about their near term plans: "The cars are finished with the refurbishment and when they get to Vegas, we install the furniture. Then off to LA where they go into service between LA & San Diego in Feb. we are building two more & when those are done we will have enough to run an excursion between LA & Vegas. About May of this year". 

LA to San Diego? Is that even remotely a viable "luxury" excursion market?


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> LA to San Diego? Is that even remotely a viable "luxury" excursion market?


my thoughts exactly


----------



## RobertB

cirdan said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> LA to San Diego? Is that even remotely a viable "luxury" excursion market?
> 
> 
> 
> my thoughts exactly
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bet against it... that seems to be a very busy route, and maybe going "in style" from LA would have enough appeal to support a car full of high rollers (who would rather roll on steel than asphalt).

Those cars look like the ones that the Trinity Railway Express commuter line (Dallas-Fort Worth) uses to supplement their double-decker cars during rush hours, but I'm not a very good trainspotter so YMMV. (pix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TRE_Budd_Rail_diesel_car.jpg)


----------



## Agent

Caught the two X Train cars on the end of Amtrak #5(22) last night. The two are reported to be the _Keystone Grill_ and _Mohave_ from Mid-America Railcar Leasing. Also, The X Train's Facebook page has a contest for those that submit videos of photos of the cars _en route_.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> LVRE has revised their website with a bunch of possible travel excursions. I think their business plan is throw a whole lot of proposals and ideas against the wall and see if anything sticks.
> 
> There is an investor presentation on the website under Rail Car Funding that states these cars are leased from Mid America Railcar, are being refurbed in Indiana (Beech Grove??), and that the schedule is to get 20 cars by the end of 2014 (presumably if they can get investors). Where did these cars originally come from?
> 
> On the Facebook page, XTrain posted this about their near term plans: "The cars are finished with the refurbishment and when they get to Vegas, we install the furniture. Then off to LA where they go into service between LA & San Diego in Feb. we are building two more & when those are done we will have enough to run an excursion between LA & Vegas. About May of this year".
> 
> LA to San Diego? Is that even remotely a viable "luxury" excursion market?


It depends on what they're charging. The weekend of SDCC, these guys could probably sell out two extra cars on most Surfliners. Same thing on other peak weekends, when BC can sell out and/or the whole train goes reserved. Still, it's interesting to see...considering how the Surfliners are largely commuter lines, this is almost in line with the old parlor car services on commuter roads back in the day.


----------



## Alice

LARail.com runs Los Angeles to San Diego weekend excursions regularly for $169 per person RT, including sleeping on the car in San Diego. They also run day trips to San Luis Obispo for for wine tasting, $145. Both of these are popular. Their higher priced offerings also often sellout. I think the X Train will do fine on the coast depending on pricing.


----------



## Anderson

Let's bear in mind, also, that $169 r/t translates into just under $85 each way (and that this rate scales to two people with LARail; it's actually slightly less per person for four). This includes a night in the sleeper. For LAX-SAN right now, a one-way on the Surfliner is $37 in coach or $56 in Business Class (or $74/$112 round-trip).

The question is what LVRE could afford to offer their trip at, price-wise, and if (should they do this with an increased regularity) they might benefit from both more space and the ability to pick and choose departure times with some flexibility. If they're really acquiring 12-24 cars, they could probably arrange two round trips per day (morning each way, evening each way) without too much trouble. At the very least, this would probably work on weekends; weekdays would depend on what the market looks like. They might also be able to add one or two intermediate stops as well (Anaheim, anyone?).


----------



## Alice

Yes, I think LARail.com is a better deal than Amtrak for Angelenos who want to spend a weekend in San Diego and can conform to the schedule. You sure can't beat the location of the accommodations!

For a day trip, I just got email about Tioga Road, $150/person including brunch, dinner, drinks, and open platform at 90mph. I think the X-Train can probably compete with that even charging more, especially since it'll have more regular service.


----------



## Anderson

Agreed. And let's not forget that it's entirely possible that they might end up running other LA-based services...one-off trains to Vegas might be possible if UP has any sort of "off-season" where they'd be willing to let an excursion run. Considering the popularity of (for example) Iowa Pacific's "Eastern Flyer", it seems quite possible that you could sell folks on an excursion train to/from Vegas on a given weekend. I'm not sure what the round-trip would cost them, but if you could round up 500 folks willing to drop an average of $200 on the trip (remember, Iowa Pacific sold 300 tickets on each of three occasions, and a novelty factor would apply here as it does there) then there might be room to talk with UP about case-by-case slot rentals. One-offs up the coast might sell as well, _particularly_ if these guys round up a dome or two (and/or CA gets rid of the Amfleet set that often carries the dome).


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

I have seen 2 X-Train cars. I am NOT impressed! They are parked at the end of an industrial siding for the Review Journal near the intersection of Martin Luther King Boulevard and Bonanza.This siding would be better than the North Las Vegas station they were touting. As much as I want them to succeed I do not have much hope.

Sorry no picture as my camera is broken and I am so broke. Hopefully not for to much longer.


----------



## TinCan782

Alice said:


> Yes, I think LARail.com is a better deal than Amtrak for Angelenos who want to spend a weekend in San Diego and can conform to the schedule. You sure can't beat the location of the accommodations!
> 
> For a day trip, I just got email about Tioga Road, $150/person including brunch, dinner, drinks, and open platform at 90mph. I think the X-Train can probably compete with that even charging more, especially since it'll have more regular service.


I've done LARail's weekend in San Diego on the Pacific Sands/Salisbury Beach and enjoyed the weekend.

BTW...I think you mean Tioga Pass, not Road! Did that day-trip as well.

X-train seems to be promoting more trips to places other than Las Vegas. Last year is was something on the Sunset Limited (Houston to New Orleans?) and now, San Diego!


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Today I went down to the Review Journal to check out the 2 X-Train cars here in Vegas. The Siding goes past the RJ plant and is behind a company called Extreme Manufacturing located at 1415 Bonanza RD. in Las Vegas.

There were a few workers doing something inside and at one door of the car there was a ramp into the EM Warehouse. I wrote down the car Numbers.

The first was MRLX 800651 A picture I found of what it looked like before is

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3162209

The second one was MRLX 800644 A picture I found of what it looked like before is

http://ddybowski.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2862218

Apparently these were formally Mid America Cars.


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Here is a link http://www.fox5vegas.com/video?clipId=9805170&autostart=true to a news report that was on a local station. I have no ideal how long this link will remain. The Video shows the interior and exterior of the X-train cars.


----------



## the_traveler

> ... no contract with UP ...





> ... run in May to LV





> ... will use local (railroads)


 :huh: 
The only line between Daggett, CA (the cutoff from the BNSF trans-con) to LV is UP. unless they're going to build a new line in the next few months!


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Looks like Z-Train is having their first event http://www.xtrainvacations.com/vacation-packages/203-yellowstone-and-mt-rushmore-2 just don't be 60 and up.


----------



## TinCan782

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> Looks like Z-Train is having their first event http://www.xtrainvacations.com/vacation-packages/203-yellowstone-and-mt-rushmore-2 just don't be 60 and up.


Board Amtrak! What happened to their cars? What happened to LA to Vegas?

"At 1:15 they’ll prepare to board the famous California Zephyr. Departure is at 2:00. The train is made up of Superliner equipment. Relax in your reclining coach seat with leg rest. Amtrak Roomettes and Bedrooms are available for an additional charge. After settling in, you may want to go to the glass walled Sightseer Lounge car with its comfortable seating. It's a great place to enjoy the passing scenery. All meals on the trains are included. Enjoy a full course dinner in the diner tonight. (D)"


----------



## the_traveler

2 questions:

If this is X-*TRAIN*, why is more of this tour on a bus? :huh:



> Start in FLG and return from SLC ...


 :huh: :huh:
If the tour goes from GSC on the CZ, to Yellowstone and Mt Rushmore, then returns from Minot on the EB, and you go to FLG on the SWC (or fly to FLG) and return from SLC on the CZ (or fly from SLC), when and how do you go to Yellowstone and Mt Rushmore? And how do you get back to SLC if the tour ends in Minot?


----------



## Anderson

Well, they're running a bunch of tours. It's hard to think of something I've ever been quite so unenthused about.


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Just realized the Link I posted isn't for their first event. The first event is in their parked cars as a singles mixer, sold in age groups, with the top age being 59.

I also noticed that the trip I did post is 2500+ in coach seats. Yet they say meals included, so How will they be handling that, including meal reservations. i.e. before sleepers or after. And how will they give preference to other coach passengers.


----------



## TinCan782

Just a big tour package. I'm assuming X-Train is reserving (buying out) an entire coach, or more. If not, their customers would be scattered on the train among the regular Amtrak coach passengers. Their "coach" fare includes meals but the mentioned upgrade to sleeper is interesting because because regular Amtrak sleeper passengers receive meals anyway!


----------



## Anderson

http://www.vegasxtrain.com/casino-fun-train.html

This also shows up on the site.

http://www.vegasxtrain.com/x-rail-asset-fund-1-lp-presentation.html

...ok, so there's something interesting here. Something _very_ interesting. Keystone Grill and Mohave are to start service on the Surfliner at some point soon per these documents. The whole business proposition here is fascinating if it can be made to work...though from what I can tell, Boswash and Chicago would be the more obvious candidates (as there's still a private car operating on one of the Chicago lines).


----------



## Anderson

Some further thoughts on the possibility of "deluxe commuter" service:
-It has been stated elsewhere that the reason the various commuter services don't offer any sort of upgraded service is because of the hassle of selling different kinds of tickets. Adding a third-party operator for the upgraded service removes that obstacle.

-Also, the political element gets removed if a third party is handling the service and paying a haulage fee.

-If I had to guess, based on the peak loads on some of the NJT and MNRR commuter trains, it's possible that the market is large enough to pitch a premium service to <1% of the commuters. 500-1000 customers per day might be a sustainable level for a New Haven Line service, for example. Same with NJT-NEC.

--In that vein, there are a lot of stations along the NEC that aren't served by Amtrak (Hamilton, etc.) or are only thinly served on weekdays. The market I could see would be for those stops (where you can't upgrade to either a Regional or an Acela).

-There's also the LIRR. I'm not sure if there would be issues with the curves (issues with curve radii apparently scrapped an attempt to buy some Amtrak equipment to keep the parlor car service(s) going during an equipment renewal cycle), but you've got enough people with long enough commutes that a service could sell.

Other lines could be supported with lower ridership, depending on how much would be needed to support a service running only 2-3 cars on the back of an existing train. It's a question of whether they can make do with dozens or low-hundreds of daily ridership, or whether high hundreds would be needed.


----------



## CHamilton

Possible typo in headline? Maybe it should read "consolidate with"? Sounds like they are looking to get bought out.

X Train seeks private partnerships, acquisitions to consolidate existing passenger-rail operations



> X Train Holdings, known as the X Train, is seeking to create private partnerships with existing passenger-rail services, company officials announced yesterday.
> 
> The company, which operates a luxury train travel service, also plans to consolidate the companies as an allied collective enterprise that can gain better access to capital for growth and infrastructure, marketing expansion, rail assets, and operational and administrative support, X Train officials said in a press release.
> 
> Consolidation of expenses and revenue expansion will allow affiliated companies to generate more on the bottom line, they said.


----------



## afigg

Looks like the X-Train executives are seeking to buy or team up with other tourist train operators. This company is getting further and further away from a viable LA to Vegas train travel option. Too bad there is not political leadership in Nevada or Las Vegas that is pushing for a state supported LA to Vegas corridor service with daily or twice daily frequencies while waiting for Xpress West to sort out their plans.

Oh well. I do have to give Mr. Barron of X-Train credit for packing a serious amount of MBA speak into 2 sentences. Quoting the Progressive Railroading article:

"We are looking to consolidate the resources of a fractional industry of independent passenger-rail services under an umbrella which gives our affiliated companies economies of scale and greater marketing reach," said Michael Barron, X Train's chairman and chief executive officer. "We can provide a path to liquidity for those owners who wish to sell their enterprise as an exit strategy or owners can retain 100 percent ownership of their business operating under the extended service umbrella of our company."


----------



## Paulus

afigg said:


> Looks like the X-Train executives are seeking to buy or team up with other tourist train operators. This company is getting further and further away from a viable LA to Vegas train travel option. Too bad there is not political leadership in Nevada or Las Vegas that is not pushing for a state supported LA to Vegas corridor service with daily or twice daily frequencies while waiting for Xpress West to sort out their plans.


Neither X-Train nor XPressWest was ever a viable train travel option and California has far better intercity routes to spend the money on (Daylight, Redding, and Coachella Valley for starters).


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> Looks like the X-Train executives are seeking to buy or team up with other tourist train operators. This company is getting further and further away from a viable LA to Vegas train travel option. Too bad there is not political leadership in Nevada or Las Vegas that is not pushing for a state supported LA to Vegas corridor service with daily or twice daily frequencies while waiting for Xpress West to sort out their plans.
> 
> Oh well. I do have to give Mr. Barron of X-Train credit for packing a serious amount of MBA speak into 2 sentences. Quoting the Progressive Railroading article:
> 
> "We are looking to consolidate the resources of a fractional industry of independent passenger-rail services under an umbrella which gives our affiliated companies economies of scale and greater marketing reach," said Michael Barron, X Train's chairman and chief executive officer. "We can provide a path to liquidity for those owners who wish to sell their enterprise as an exit strategy or owners can retain 100 percent ownership of their business operating under the extended service umbrella of our company."


<sarcasm>

Put in plain English this means "We have never run a single train successfully. But please ignore that and let us consolidate all your successful operations and screw it up together"

</sracasm>


----------



## RobertB

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the X-Train executives are seeking to buy or team up with other tourist train operators. This company is getting further and further away from a viable LA to Vegas train travel option. Too bad there is not political leadership in Nevada or Las Vegas that is not pushing for a state supported LA to Vegas corridor service with daily or twice daily frequencies while waiting for Xpress West to sort out their plans.
> 
> Oh well. I do have to give Mr. Barron of X-Train credit for packing a serious amount of MBA speak into 2 sentences. Quoting the Progressive Railroading article:
> 
> "We are looking to consolidate the resources of a fractional industry of independent passenger-rail services under an umbrella which gives our affiliated companies economies of scale and greater marketing reach," said Michael Barron, X Train's chairman and chief executive officer. "We can provide a path to liquidity for those owners who wish to sell their enterprise as an exit strategy or owners can retain 100 percent ownership of their business operating under the extended service umbrella of our company."
> 
> 
> 
> <sarcasm>
> 
> Put in plain English this means "We have never run a single train successfully. But please ignore that and let us consolidate all your successful operations and screw it up together"
> 
> </sracasm>
Click to expand...

You're forgetting the unstoppable power of branding. They have an "X" at the start of their name! How could they lose?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Roy Disney: "Branding is something you do with cattle." And let's face it, this is simply bovine.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Roy Disney: "Branding is something you do with cattle." And let's face it, this is simply bovine.


Nice Quote Lion! And "Handling is for Animals, not People!"  Bill Russell/Basketball Great


----------



## CHamilton

X Train negotiating to acquire four private rail operators



> X Train Holdings, known as the X Train, announced yesterday that it has opened negotiations with four privately owned passenger-rail services to acquire the companies.
> 
> X Train is not disclosing which companies it's negotiating with at this time due to a nondisclosure agreement between the parities, X Train officials said in a press release.


----------



## RobertB

CHamilton said:


> X Train negotiating to acquire four private rail operators
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X Train Holdings, known as the X Train, announced yesterday that it has opened negotiations with four privately owned passenger-rail services to acquire the companies.
> X Train is not disclosing which companies it's negotiating with at this time due to a nondisclosure agreement between the parities, X Train officials said in a press release.
Click to expand...

How many "privately owned passenger-rail services" are there? Would 4 out of X be a significant number?

(lol, I used "X" as a variable, just shows how powerful it is, right?)


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> <sarcasm>
> 
> Put in plain English this means "We have never run a single train successfully. But please ignore that and let us consolidate all your successful operations and screw it up together"
> 
> </sracasm>


Maybe the opposite is the case. In acquiring succesful operations, X-Train will be acquiring competent management structures and staff who know how the market works and can run charter rail services profitably.

(wishful thinking)


----------



## George Harris

jimhudson said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roy Disney: "Branding is something you do with cattle." And let's face it, this is simply bovine.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice Quote Lion! And "Handling is for Animals, not People!"  Bill Russell/Basketball Great
Click to expand...

Ever since I heard it, I consider Roy Disney's statement one of the best concerning business pretentions of all time.

As to this:



> "We are looking to consolidate the resources of a fractional industry of independent passenger-rail services under an umbrella which gives our affiliated companies economies of scale and greater marketing reach," said Michael Barron, X Train's chairman and chief executive officer. "We can provide a path to liquidity for those owners who wish to sell their enterprise as an exit strategy or owners can retain 100 percent ownership of their business operating under the extended service umbrella of our company."


 grab your checkbook and run for the nearest exit. When I hear this sort of stuff, or a lot of the other chiche speak like "international best practice" "out of the box thinking" etc, I tend to feel like I am about to lose my lunch.


----------



## Anderson

Honestly, the concept (consolidating some of the disparate rail excursion groups into something larger, and presumably more organized and able to do things with any sort of regularity) isn't bad. But considering the random shots in the dark, I don't see anything happening.

It's sort of like the idea of running "first class commuter" service...there's a market, I suspect, especially on some of the super-high-capacity lines with stops Amtrak covers either sporadically or not at all (NYG-NHV, NYP-Hamilton, etc.). At the same time, while I haven't seen the investment documents, these guys don't seem to have any real plans together beyond a few excursions.


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

This morning I drove by the siding where the the 2 cars are. The are still there and it looks like some work was done, I do not know the color codes but there were new plugs/connectors for 440 and control. New blue Black White sockets on each end. Could not tell what was between the 2 cars, not enough light.


----------



## Anderson

I got this in my inbox last night:

X Train Holdings (OTCQB: XTRN) Inks Securities Purchase Agreement With Ascendiant Capital Partners for up to $10 Million
------------------------------

------------------------------

LAS VEGAS, NV--(Marketwired - Apr 15, 2014) - X Train Holdings (OTCQB: XTRN (http://www.marketwired.com/news_room/Stock?ticker=XTRN) ), a consolidator of independently owned passenger rail operators and operator of rail entertainment facilities, announced today that the Company has executed a Securities Purchase Agreement with Ascendiant Capital Partners ("Ascendiant") to provide up to $10 million in capital.

Ascendiant Capital Partners is the parent company of Ascendiant Capital Markets, a full-service investment banking, equity research, market making, and securities trading firm focused on public companies, and institutional and accredited investors.

X Train intends to use capital from the facility with Ascendiant Capital Partners to acquire existing passenger rail service companies, and for general working capital purposes on an as-needed basis.

-----------------------------------

The short version of the release is that they've secured $10m in funding through an agreement,..which should be enough to cover refurbishing about 12-15 cars. Looks like they might have enough money to make this work.


----------



## RobertB

It sounds more like they've gotten enough money to fund golden parachutes for the owners of companies they buy. They describe themselves first as a "consolidator", which probably says something about the target audience of this press release.


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

About 2 hours ago I drove by the siding where they have the 2 cars stored in Vegas. No visible change in the cars, but there is a huge change in the weeds around the car. They are so tall that the rails are hidden and some are as tall as the steps.


----------



## NorthShore

The stock went through a reverse split awhile back and has seriously sunk to levels not alot higher than before that action.


----------



## CHamilton

Some of X-Train's rolling stock is appearing on the Santa Fe Southern.


----------



## GG-1

CHamilton said:


> Some of X-Train's rolling stock is appearing on the Santa Fe Southern.


Aloha

Interesting, I wonder when they took that picture. It looks like it was shot just after the cars arrived in Vegas. About a month or so ago the weeds were about 1/3 of the way up the car. About 2 weeks ago they had been trimmed. 3 days ago I saw a food commercial they shot about the meals that will be served. A neighbor of mine owns stock in the company. So far it is a bad investment.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Hola Eric! Is it Summer yet? LOL Guess Vegas will be humming for the Holiday Weekend as the suckers, er tourists hit the strip! LOL

It certainly seems like it is a bad investment, and I'm wondering if anyone will ride a dinner/ brunch train to Lamy @ such high prices? Perhaps "investing" in a Casino, as an owner/not customer is a better bet??!!!


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## Anderson

jimhudson said:


> Hola Eric! Is it Summer yet? LOL Guess Vegas will be humming for the Holiday Weekend as the suckers, er tourists hit the strip! LOL
> 
> It certainly seems like it is a bad investment, and I'm wondering if anyone will ride a dinner/ brunch train to Lamy @ such high prices? Perhaps "investing" in a Casino, as an owner/not customer is a better bet??!!!


Well, remember that Las Vegas wasn't built on the winners.

Snark aside, casino stocks have done pretty well over the last few years. Put together some 5-10 year charts on Yahoo Finance if you want more information.

Just as an aside: LVRE was always, at best, a speculative investment (not that I wasn't tempted to speculate at times), and there are better passenger rail-related investments at the moment.


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## CHamilton

X Train passenger-rail service begins in Santa Fe



> Passenger-rail service on the X Train, a luxury travel service, launched last week in Santa Fe, N.M., the Las Vegas Railway Express Inc. announced on Tuesday.
> 
> The route travels from Santa Fe to the rail town of Lamy, N.M., the site of the original terminus of the AT&SF railroad. The X Train is shipping two of its "Club X" luxury-service passenger cars to Santa Fe for inclusion on the route, Las Vegas Railway Express officials said in a press release.


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## RobertB

It seems like it would make sense to take Amtrak to Lamy and then take the X Train from Lamy to Santa Fe... except that I suspect it's a lot cheaper to take Amtrak to Albuquerque and take the RailRunner to Santa Fe. What exactly is the selling point of the trip to Lamy, NM, pop 218?


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## Green Maned Lion

The point is they are X-Train and finally found a rail line willing to take the trash can they call a train for a price they can afford so that they can say they turned a wheel in revenue service. This will allow them to be dynamic and leverage the synergies and create resource flows. Which will allow them to talk like they are actually a corporation full of people desperately trying to justify their unjustified pay checks.


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## VentureForth

It makes me sick how there are some folks who are raking in a ton of cash off of poor investors. This move is likely just a ploy to make them look like they are trying, rather than losing investor's cash.

I suspect the Santa Fe Southern made more money on the one episode of Breaking Bad than it ever did as a tourist train.

Maybe they can run all the way to Las Vegas (NM). But then, they may have to reroute on the Transcon...


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## the_traveler

VentureForth said:


> Maybe they can run all the way to Las Vegas (NM).


Well, if they do they will make good on their originally plan to operate from *LA*my to Las Vegas!


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## CHamilton

X Train re-routes to Western Alignment




> The Las Vegas Railway Express, Inc., (X Train) has begun the engineering of the route to Las Vegas from Los Angeles on what it calls the Western Alignment.
> The original plan by X Train was to traverse the Cajon Pass to Barstow and then north to Las Vegas. As capacity on that route became restricted, X Train reached out to University of Nevada Las Vegas's (UNLV) Rail Engineering program headed by Dr. Harry Teng to plan the logistics of an alternative route to Las Vegas. The UNLV plan is consistent with the Regional Transportation Commission's plan of 2007, which shows access to Las Vegas via rail from the west rather than via the heavily-trafficked Cajon Pass.


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## jis

So does this mean that now they plan to go up the Antelope Valley Line to Palmdale and thence onto Mojave and onto Barstow? Or do they want to go part ways up Cajon and then follow the Palmdale cutoff? The wording strongly seems to suggest the Antelope Valley routing. Either way it will add quite some distance to the journey between LA and Las Vegas quite a bit over relatively slow trackage too.


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## Anderson

I was wondering the same thing. I just can't figure out how they're looking to route this line to save my life.


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## Paulus

Anderson said:


> I was wondering the same thing. I just can't figure out how they're looking to route this line to save my life.


Right on up into their nostrils most likely.


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## GG-1

Aloha

There is a map that was sent to me. I will have to search for it again.

Last Sunday I was chatting with a former Amtrak Engineer who was on the DW told me there were 4 possible routes that could be used between LA and Vegas. He said 2 of them did not use the Cahon Grade, which is slightly over3%.

I do not Know Antelope Valley, but Barstow was on the Map I saw.


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## jis

Yes that looks like the Antelope Valley routing.

The only fly in the ointment of course is that Barstow - Mojave is not exactly a non-busy line either. LA to Barstow via Antelope Valley may be as long as 5+ hours in and of itself as has been mentioned on TO. Amtrak takes 3:40 or so via the much shorter and somewhat faster Cajon route between LA and Barstow.


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## CHamilton

The X Train [on Facebook]





> Hey guys: Got our logistics report from UNLV's Rail Engineering Program's Dr. Harry Teng. It is a fine piece of work and analyzes the option of a train from LAto Vegas using a Western alignment via Mojave. The school is now working on a similar study for the eastern alignment over Cajon Pass.
> 
> 
> We continue to move forward on the logistics of the route. Our plan is to have several runs before the end of the year to test things out & then the big one for New Year's Eve 2015. We have the consist we want to use identified. Stay tuned for real pictures on our cars we will be using. Working on the station lease downtown too.
> 
> We will be posting the ticket sales as soon as we firm up the operating times for the runs this year. Look forward to having you all on board the X Train soon.


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## Paulus

They had $1,003 cash on hand at the end of 2014, somehow I don't think they'll actually be doing any runs


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## Palmetto

The farce continues. Have they talked to the UP and the BNSF yet about using their railroads?!


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## NorthShore

They want to change the company name now, and issue more shares. So you may just have a chance to get in for less than the 1/100 of a cent that each little portion of the company is currently worth.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1405227/000109690615000290/lasvegas.htm


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## Anderson

Well, with this show continuing the X-Train folks sent out an email today announcing plans to start up LA-Vegas service by the end of the year, albeit as an "Amtrak charter" (i.e. the same thing that a number of excursions will do; the NRHS does something like this in SW Virginia from time to time). Of course, this is also "subject to final approval by the railroads and Amtrak". Considering Amtrak's reputation towards PV operations (I'd loosely classify this as such an operation) and the history of the company...let's just say that I'll sit back and watch the show on this one, but I figured it was worth mentioning all the same.


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