# Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner



## Evan's Trains

Anybody noticed on Amtrak's website that the Silver Star now has its own seperate cafe menu? Before when you viewed the cafe menu it just redirected tp the national but now it seems to just be a clone of the NER cafe menu


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## Cho Cho Charlie

OK, I give up. I can't seem to find that specific menu.

Where's the Silver Star Café menu? Does someone have a link?


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## rrdude

Try this:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/544/78/Silver-Star-Cafe-Menu-1015.pdf


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## neroden

And if they had that menu on all the national trains, I think it would be a definite improvement....


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## Cho Cho Charlie

rrdude said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/544/78/Silver-Star-Cafe-Menu-1015.pdf


Cool! Thanks. That works.

When I click on the Café menu on the Silver Star page, it brings me to the National menu. 

BTW, I noticed it has the new AGR credit card images too.


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## OlympianHiawatha

The prices for this stuff have gotten higher than a Cat can lift its back end, but that is typical for hostage situations including airlines and stadiums. At least unlike airlines and stadiums you are allowed to bring your own onto Amtrak.


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## Palmetto

Cocktails have gone up to $8.00; right in line with the airlines I fly.


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## Evan's Trains

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/544/78/Silver-Star-Cafe-Menu-1015.pdf

This should work


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## AmtrakLKL

I believe the new cafe menu was supposed to be effective today, October 7. However, I've heard all the new fresh food items will be loaded in NYP for a round-trip, so the Stub Star currently running MIA-JAX won't have the new items.


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## Palmetto

So: "made yesterday" items on the NB trip I guess.


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## rrdude

if you put the menus side by side, there are more items similar, than different. The menu changes/ additions, are very minor IMHO


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## OlympianHiawatha

Palmetto said:


> So: "made yesterday" items on the NB trip I guess.


Actually made 3-4 days ago "Fresh" if that is the case!


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## Devil's Advocate

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> So: "made yesterday" items on the NB trip I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually made 3-4 days ago "Fresh" if that is the case!
Click to expand...

Might as well call them leftovers. I wonder if Aramark has to spray them with something to keep the "fresh" selections from looking stale and wilted days later.



Palmetto said:


> Cocktails have gone up to $8.00; right in line with the airlines I fly.


Most flights are short enough to wait for a drink when you land, longer flights can often be booked on airlines with free liquor, and nearly every airport I've visited had a bar of some sort. On the other hand Amtrak is a long and drawn out affair that can last multiple days each way and most train stations haven't had a functioning bar in decades. $8 for a single shot of low grade liquor is a turnoff to me. Either stock better brands or reduce the price to something easier to stomach.


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## abcnews

However, Amtrak does allow you to bring your own liquors, wines and beer. So give them some credit there. Not likely to find that on United, Delta or American.

If you book a roomette or a Bedroom.


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## abcnews

BTW - We just booked two Roomettes in April and they mentioned that the dinning car is back. I hope that is indeed correct. The rate was a bit higher, than the current roomette rates without the diner. I think it was about $64 difference.


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## Devil's Advocate

abcnews said:


> However, Amtrak does allow you to bring your own liquors, wines and beer. So give them some credit there. Not likely to find that on United, Delta or American.
> 
> If you book a roomette or a Bedroom.


If you book a roomette or bedroom then you're paying first class airfare prices where the airline would be providing these drinks at no additional cost, even if you were flying a no-frills operation such as UA, DL, or AA.


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## niemi24s

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you book a roomette or bedroom then you're paying first class airfare prices where the airline would be providing these drinks at no additional cost, even if you were flying a no-frills operation such as UA, DL, or AA.


<Boo hoo> What about us folks that don't drink? <sniff>


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## Cho Cho Charlie

abcnews said:


> BTW - We just booked two Roomettes in April and they mentioned that the dinning car is back. I hope that is indeed correct. The rate was a bit higher, than the current roomette rates without the diner. I think it was about $64 difference.


Wasn't the plan to return the dining car to the Star as of the first of the year (January 2016)?


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## niemi24s

Not the first of the year, but 31 January 2016: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am%2FAM_Alert_C%2FAlerts_Popup&cid=1251627987391


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## AmtrakLKL

Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.

Edit: Sleeper space has been blanked Feb 1 - Apr 30 for the fare changes to be put into place. As before, passengers who have already booked during this period can:


Sleeper passengers receive a full refund of the difference between fare paid and lowest "no-meal" fare.
Sleepers may rebook on Silver Meteor at no charge, original fare will be honored if Meteor is higher. If Meteor is sold out, may rebook within 4 days on either side of original travel date. Refund without penalty if Meteor fare is lower.
Cancel and receive full refund with no penalty. 
Coach passengers may also rebook to Meteor at no additional charge. Must rebook on same date only. Refund without penalty if Meteor is lower fare.


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## Bob Dylan

AmtrakLKL said:


> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.


Must be a Huge success! 
The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!


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## neroden

I'm beginning to suspect that the entire 'experiment' is actually due to the dining car shortage, and they're calibrating the length of it to when they expect to get dining cars from CAF. Watch the targeted end date to see when Amtrak thinks they'll get the first four dining cars. :-(


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## Train2104

AmtrakLKL said:


> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.


This seems like it's just waiting for the Vewliner II diners to arrive.


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## greatcats

The dining car shortage issue makes some sense. Otherwise, boo hiss. Along with the dog food they seem to be serving on the CONO.


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## AmtrakBlue

I saw a post on Facebook saying the last of the baggage cars will be delivered this month. So hopefully they've started, or will soon start, working on the diners.


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## Ryan

That would roughly fit a Januaryish delivery and then a few months of testing before rolling into revenue service, perhaps...

I just hope that's what it actually is, and this bit of silliness is soon in the past.


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## niemi24s

AmtrakLKL said:


> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> Edit: Sleeper space has been blanked Feb 1 - Apr 30 for the fare changes to be put into place. As before, passengers who have already booked during this period can:
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers receive a full refund of the difference between fare paid and lowest "no-meal" fare.
> Sleepers may rebook on Silver Meteor at no charge, original fare will be honored if Meteor is higher. If Meteor is sold out, may rebook within 4 days on either side of original travel date. Refund without penalty if Meteor fare is lower.
> Cancel and receive full refund with no penalty.
> Coach passengers may also rebook to Meteor at no additional charge. Must rebook on same date only. Refund without penalty if Meteor is lower fare.


Per your edit, is the extension of the no-diner experiment on the Star in error?

If so, please either delete it or line through it. Thanx.


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## AmtrakBlue

Bob Dylan said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be a Huge success!
> The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!
Click to expand...

Or maybe they were hoping to have the new diners ready by Feb and now hope to have them by May.


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## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> Edit: Sleeper space has been blanked Feb 1 - Apr 30 for the fare changes to be put into place. As before, passengers who have already booked during this period can:
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers receive a full refund of the difference between fare paid and lowest "no-meal" fare.
> Sleepers may rebook on Silver Meteor at no charge, original fare will be honored if Meteor is higher. If Meteor is sold out, may rebook within 4 days on either side of original travel date. Refund without penalty if Meteor fare is lower.
> Cancel and receive full refund with no penalty.
> Coach passengers may also rebook to Meteor at no additional charge. Must rebook on same date only. Refund without penalty if Meteor is lower fare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Per your edit, is the extension of the no-diner experiment on the Star in error?
> 
> If so, please either delete it or line through it. Thanx.
Click to expand...

His edit is providing further information about the lack of diner for Feb-Apr. This is what they did the when the diner was going to be removed earlier this year.


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## niemi24s

Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?


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## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?


I trust AmtrakLKL to post real info, not spurious proclamations.


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## keelhauled

niemi24s said:


> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?


If one goes to amtrak.com and tries to book travel on the Star during the period in question, there is indeed no sleeper space available. I find his information very credible.


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## Ryan

niemi24s said:


> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?


The reference is "AmtrakLKL says so, and AmtrakLKL knows what he's talking about".


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## niemi24s

keelhauled said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?
> 
> 
> 
> If one goes to amtrak.com and tries to book travel on the Star during the period in question, there is indeed no sleeper space available. I find his information very credible.
Click to expand...

I fail to see the connection between sleeper availability and the dining car (or lack thereof). There was no dining car from 1 July 2015 up until the present time, yet sleepers were available.

How 'bout this explanation: sleepers show up as either SO or NA simply because they're going to pull the sleepers too!

But then again it's kinda close to my bedtime and I didn't get my afternoon nap.


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## keelhauled

niemi24s said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?
> 
> 
> 
> If one goes to amtrak.com and tries to book travel on the Star during the period in question, there is indeed no sleeper space available. I find his information very credible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I fail to see the connection between sleeper availability and the dining car (or lack thereof). There was no dining car from 1 July 2015 up until the present time, yet sleepers were available.
> 
> How 'bout this explanation: sleepers show up as either SO or NA simply because they're going to pull the sleepers too!
> 
> But then again it's kinda close to my bedtime and I didn't get my afternoon nap.
Click to expand...

Consider the following:

AmtrakLKL said that "Sleeper space has been blanked Feb 1 - Apr 30 for the fare changes to be put into place." This is empirically proven by using amtrak.com.

Furthermore, by again using amtrak.com, one can find that sleepers indeed return after April 30.

This identical pattern happened earlier this year ahead of the dining car being dropped.

AmtrakLKL has provided accurate information in the past.


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## Ryan

niemi24s said:


> I fail to see the connection between sleeper availability and the dining car (or lack thereof). There was no dining car from 1 July 2015 up until the present time, yet sleepers were available.


There were not sleepers able to be booked from July-January for a very long (several weeks) period of time whilst Amtrak was working out how to do the experiment, if they should do the experiment, and what to charge. Then, with an announcement of the experiment, the sleeping cars became bookable.

There was another period previous to that where sleepers were not bookable, and became bookable, where informed speculation was they were considering this and decided not to.

So while you don't see the connection, those of us that have been at this game for more than 9 months do, and know what we're talking about. We also are somewhat perceptive and know who the people "in the know" are (hint: AmtrakLKL is one, and there are some others - perhaps you can set your mind towards figuring out who they are, it'll be easier than figuring out the bucket system for you).


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## Thirdrail7

niemi24s said:


> Has the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star been extended to 30 Apr 2016? If so, what's the reference? Or was that merely a spurious proclamation?


This is why certain people (ahem) typically sits on information that directly affects the public until it is officially released....unless they are dropping cryptic hints. h34r: I'm sure AmtrakLKL is excited and more than willing to share his reference.

But, I'd venture to say if everyone practices patience and keeps an eye on the website, you'll have all of the information you'll need.


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## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> unless they are dropping cryptic hints. h34r:


I can't think of anyone around here that would do such a thing!  h34r:


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## chakk

Devil's Advocate said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> So: "made yesterday" items on the NB trip I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually made 3-4 days ago "Fresh" if that is the case!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Might as well call them leftovers. I wonder if Aramark has to spray them with something to keep the "fresh" selections from looking stale and wilted days later.
> 
> 
> 
> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cocktails have gone up to $8.00; right in line with the airlines I fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most flights are short enough to wait for a drink when you land, longer flights can often be booked on airlines with free liquor, and nearly every airport I've visited had a bar of some sort. On the other hand Amtrak is a long and drawn out affair that can last multiple days each way and most train stations haven't had a functioning bar in decades. $8 for a single shot of low grade liquor is a turnoff to me. Either stock better brands or reduce the price to something easier to stomach.
Click to expand...

Is alcohol in the airport bars significantly cheaper than what is offered on the planes?


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## Devil's Advocate

chakk said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most flights are short enough to wait for a drink when you land, longer flights can often be booked on airlines with free liquor, and nearly every airport I've visited had a bar of some sort. On the other hand Amtrak is a long and drawn out affair that can last multiple days each way and most train stations haven't had a functioning bar in decades. $8 for a single shot of low grade liquor is a turnoff to me. Either stock better brands or reduce the price to something easier to stomach.
> 
> 
> 
> Is alcohol in the airport bars significantly cheaper than what is offered on the planes?
Click to expand...

Depends on how you look at it. In an airport bar you can choose a specific brand you prefer from a much larger selection. You can discount the total cost by requesting doubles and you can increase the pour by sitting at the bar and by tipping well on your first couple drinks. In other words a few extra dollars on the front end can substantially reduce the total cost on the back end. In the case of larger bars you can often find discounted drinks on the current specials menu.

Onboard the aircraft there are few if any options for improving quality or decreasing cost. You have basically zero selection beyond the one brand of rum, whiskey, gin, vodka, etc. they happen to stock. Tipping or ordering doubles has zero positive impact on the total cost and there are no meaningful specials on board the aircraft. Most brands are on the lower end of mid-grade and everything is served in cheap plastic cups. If you want a cocktail that's more complicated than a rum and coke or a gin and tonic you're probably out of luck.

That being said, some airlines stock more liquor than others, a few still offer it for free or at a reduced cost on TATL and TPAC flights, and some airport bars have implemented automatic pouring devices which can negate much of the potential cost savings. So, in some cases your mileage may vary, but in general this has been my experience.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

keelhauled said:


> AmtrakLKL has provided accurate information in the past.


So, Amtrak has stopped issuing Service Alerts, and now relies on Amtrak LKL to make all its official notifications?

Sorry, but I thought the request for a link to a new Service Alert (the equivalent to this one), or a pointer to something official, was a reasonable one.


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## jis

Sigh! You can't win here by trying to be nice and give advanced heads up without getting a barrage of criticism. That is why I of late am refraining from giving out some information that is available from various sources but has not been announced yet. It really is better to let people wait to hear it officially lest they get upset that Amtrak is using some well meaning individuals as their marketing department.

At the end of the day, the one useful thing that this site provides other than the camaraderie is as an early source of information about what is going on. And now people want to effectively shut that down by making a stink about it not being accompanied immediately by an official Amtrak pronouncement? Ok fine.

in case it is not clear to anyone, Amtrak LKL is not making an official announcement from Amtrak. He is just giving info that he has come across. Take it or leave it as hearsay.


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## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Sigh! You can't win here by trying to be nice and give advanced heads up without getting a barrage of criticism. That is why I of late am refraining from giving out some information that is available from various sources but has not been announced yet. It really is better to let people wait to hear it officially lest they get upset that Amtrak is using some well meaning individuals as their marketing department.
> 
> At the end of the day, the one useful thing that this site provides other than the camaraderie is as an early source of information about what is going on. And now people want to effectively shut that down by making a stink about it not being accompanied immediately by an official Amtrak pronouncement? Ok fine.
> 
> in case it is not clear to anyone, Amtrak LKL is not making an official announcement from Amtrak. He is just giving info that he has come across. Take it or leave it as hearsay.


*Like*


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## AmtrakBlue

And then we have people come to AU asking "Has anyone heard..." like for Nat'l Train Day, Bonus Points & the Autumn Express.

As Jis said, you just can't win.


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## keelhauled

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL has provided accurate information in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> So, Amtrak has stopped issuing Service Alerts, and now relies on Amtrak LKL to make all its official notifications?
> Sorry, but I thought the request for a link to a new Service Alert (the equivalent to this one), or a pointer to something official, was a reasonable one.
Click to expand...

I trust that he knows what he's talking about and is accurate, and I explained why. Take it or leave it, it makes no difference to me.


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## jis

keelhauled said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL has provided accurate information in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> So, Amtrak has stopped issuing Service Alerts, and now relies on Amtrak LKL to make all its official notifications?
> Sorry, but I thought the request for a link to a new Service Alert (the equivalent to this one), or a pointer to something official, was a reasonable one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I trust that he knows what he's talking about and is accurate, and I explained why. Take it or leave it, it makes no difference to me.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I find this hoo-ha somewhat bizarre. If you want to get Amtrak announcements alone, why are you here? Go to http://www.amtrak.comand stop bugging us here.  Apparently many are here because they do want to hear such rumors, and the bright ones among them even realize that there is an element of hearsay in all this. People who have been here for a while know from posters track records as to which ones are more believable than the rest. Specifically, this is neither an official Amtrak site nor is it the official means of disseminating Amtrak announcements. It is just a very informed rumor mill if you will, where a surprisingly large proportion of rumors turn out to be true eventually. If you don't like that, stop complaining and go elsewhere.


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## jis

Here is an example menu of the fare available in the TGV Cafe/Bar:

http://www.seat61.com/images/tgv-train-bar-menu.jpg

If Amtrak could vaguely match this Cafe would become a very usable facility I think, even as a Diner substitute on the Star.


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## niemi24s

Bob Dylan said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be a Huge success!
> The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!
Click to expand...

Now that all the dust seems to have settled after my "who sez?" post (I didn't know AmtrakLKL was our mole), kindly allow me opportunity to humbly provide the following regarding Bob Dylan's post:

• Judging from the averages of the July & August 2015 Amtrak monthly reports, it does indeed appear to be a success. Sleeper ridership on the Star rose 30.3% when compared to June 2015. That same comparison done for 2014 showed a ridership increase of 1.9%. The figures for the Meteor over those same periods show ridership increases of 9.4% for 2015 and 5.8% for 2014.

• Another way of looking at the Star's apparent success is a comparison of the first two months of the test with those same two months in 2014: ridership increased 24.9%. I just hope the bean counters don't also experiment with removing the Star's sleepers, as they no doubt already know only 22% of its recent (July & August 2015) revenue comes from sleepers.


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## KmH

abcnews said:


> However, Amtrak does allow you to bring your own liquors, wines and beer.
> 
> If you book a roomette or a Bedroom.


_All _Amtrak passengers are allowed bring personal stock alcoholic beverages on board the train.

However, Amtrak policy says personal stock alcoholic beverages cannot be consumed in public areas of the train.

A coach seat is a pubic area, hence Amtrak policy says you can't consume your private stock alcohol at your coach seat.

However, as long as you are discrete and don't cause problems most OBS will not say anything if they see you consuming some of your private stock alcohol at your coach seat.


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## Ryan

On a 2 sleeper train, the number of room vacated by the dining car folks provides a non-trivial increase in capacity, which accounts for some on that YoY gain.


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## niemi24s

Hi Ryan:

Two things:

• During a failed attempt to use the quote function in your Post #50, the text of your question seems to have disappeared! Thought the poster (or a moderator) was the only one who could alter a post.

• In response to your now-gone question (assuming it was directed my way), the figures I used as a basis for my info in Post #48 came from page A-3.4 (total ridership and revenue for each train) and page A-3.5 (sleeper ridership and revenue for each train) of the pertinent Amtrak Monthly Performance Report for each month: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/525/92/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-August-2015.pdf The rest was just a bit of arithmetic.


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## Ryan

Yes, I'm aware of the monthly reports, but the numbers you quote aren't in them. Took me a minute to figure out what you did, which is why I withdrew the question.


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## fairviewroad

jis said:


> It is just a very informed rumor mill if you will, where a surprisingly large proportion of rumors turn out to be true eventually.


Having been on this site for several years now, I have come to appreciate this point. I used to be more of the "official sources only, please" persuasion but I have come to find that it's enjoyable to read the "insider" rumors.

If you go to places like Flyertalk, there are tons of "I overhead a flight attendant and a gate agent discussing a possible new route to XYZ" and those don't seem to pan out that much. But the "gossip" here has been much more hit than miss. It's easy to tell the difference between a foamer-type WAG and a reasonable sounding proclamation of something that, dontchaknow, might actually happen.


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## Mystic River Dragon

It's very much like living in a small town--some facts, some gossip, some gossip more reliable than other gossip. But always interesting!

If this is true about the Silver Star dining car experiment being extended, it seems almost like a "bait and switch"--they said they'd put the diner back in February, but they lied. The question is why? (Aside from Amtrak wanting to ruin anything nice, of course.)

Yes, I am bitter about this. I love the Star.


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## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It's very much like living in a small town--some facts, some gossip, some gossip more reliable than other gossip. But always interesting!
> 
> If this is true about the Silver Star dining car experiment being extended, it seems almost like a "bait and switch"--they said they'd put the diner back in February, but they lied. The question is why? (Aside from Amtrak wanting to ruin anything nice, of course.)
> 
> Yes, I am bitter about this. I love the Star.


Perhaps they "lied" because they thought they may have some new diners by Feb 1st.


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## keelhauled

Mystic River Dragon said:


> !
> 
> If this is true about the Silver Star dining car experiment being extended, it seems almost like a "bait and switch"--they said they'd put the diner back in February, but they lied. The question is why?


Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.


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## jis

Or unforeseen developments.


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## Devil's Advocate

I don't expect every rumor to come true or be accompanied with a certificate of authenticity. Post what you want, let people believe it or disbelieve it, and then be proven or disproven if and when your claim should come to pass. I guess I just don't understand the surprise or the concern. Unless and until AU is joined by official Flyertalk style ambassadors it will be up to each of us to evaluate the accuracy and relevance of any given claim.


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## jis

DA that infallible part would be your unfounded contribution if you are suggesting that is the case at AU. But hey it is infallible right?


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## neroden

jis said:


> Here is an example menu of the fare available in the TGV Cafe/Bar:
> 
> http://www.seat61.com/images/tgv-train-bar-menu.jpg
> 
> If Amtrak could vaguely match this Cafe would become a very usable facility I think, even as a Diner substitute on the Star.


Not quite so much wine (boy the French like their wine), and there should be dairy-free and gluten-free selections standard, and ingredients should be available... but yes, I generally agree with that concept.


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## neroden

niemi24s said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be a Huge success!
> The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that all the dust seems to have settled after my "who sez?" post (I didn't know AmtrakLKL was our mole), kindly allow me opportunity to humbly provide the following regarding Bob Dylan's post:
> • Judging from the averages of the July & August 2015 Amtrak monthly reports, it does indeed appear to be a success. Sleeper ridership on the Star rose 30.3% when compared to June 2015. That same comparison done for 2014 showed a ridership increase of 1.9%. The figures for the Meteor over those same periods show ridership increases of 9.4% for 2015 and 5.8% for 2014.
Click to expand...

No, that's a failure. That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.
If Amtrak had simply added another Viewliner, they could have gotten the same increase in riders.  Of course, this gets back to the car shortage problem.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakBlue said:


> Or maybe they were hoping to have the new diners ready by Feb and now hope to have them by May.


This fits with previous documents indicating that the new diners would be ready by February and more recent leaks indicating that that is impossible.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be a Huge success!
> The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that all the dust seems to have settled after my "who sez?" post (I didn't know AmtrakLKL was our mole), kindly allow me opportunity to humbly provide the following regarding Bob Dylan's post:
> • Judging from the averages of the July & August 2015 Amtrak monthly reports, it does indeed appear to be a success. Sleeper ridership on the Star rose 30.3% when compared to June 2015. That same comparison done for 2014 showed a ridership increase of 1.9%. The figures for the Meteor over those same periods show ridership increases of 9.4% for 2015 and 5.8% for 2014.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, that's a failure. That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.
> If Amtrak had simply added another Viewliner, they could have gotten the same increase in riders.  Of course, this gets back to the car shortage problem.
Click to expand...

What if the new sleeper audience came from the former coach audience and they now paid more since it was more affordable? Does anyone have the revenue numbers?


----------



## Ryan

They're right there in the report - going from memory, they're basically flat.

Edit:

July posted a 26.2 percent ridership gain in the sleeping cars and a 1.8% decline in revenue.

August posted a 23.5 percent ridership gain in the sleeping cars and a 6% decline in revenue.

(both over the same month in 2014)


----------



## niemi24s

There must be something about this that escapes me. The average monthly sleeper ridership for July & August this year was 3,437. For June this year it was 2,637 for an increase of 800 riders per month. As there are around 60 trains per month, that's an increase of 800 ÷ 60 = 13 sleeper riders per train.

So a Viewliner diner is staffed by 13 people? Wow!


----------



## Ryan

Staff rooms, by definition, are single occupancy.

Revenue rooms aren't necessarily so.


----------



## niemi24s

neroden said:


> No, that's a failure. That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff.


The average sleeper ridership for the Star in July & August 2015 was 3.437. Deducting the 2.637 sleeper riders in June 2015 gives an increase of 800 sleeper riders. As there are, say, 60 trains per month the increase in sleeper riders per train works out to 800 ÷ 60 = 13.

So the staff of a Viewliner dining car is 13 people? Wow!


----------



## Ryan

Do you ever read before posting?


----------



## niemi24s

So if 800 more sleeper riders on the average for the first two months of the test when compared to June 2015 (as opposed to only 52 more sleeper riders in a similar comparison for 2014) is a failure...

Q: How many many more sleeper riders above that 800 per month would it have taken for the test to be considered even marginally successful (assuming an unlimited supply of sleeper cars)?

...bearing in mind that sleeper revenues were down about $27,000 or 3.9% when compared to July & August of 2014. My math tells me it would have taken 138 more sleeper riders over that two month period or a little more than 2 per train to wipe out that $27,000 decrease. What does your math tell you?


----------



## TiBike

Devil's Advocate said:


> That being said, some airlines stock more liquor than others, a few still offer it for free or at a reduced cost on TATL and TPAC flights, and some airport bars have implemented automatic pouring devices which can negate much of the potential cost savings. So, in some cases your mileage may vary, but in general this has been my experience.


Alaska Airlines flights operated by Horizon offer free beer, good local brews. Something as simple as that makes you look forward to the flight.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this is true about the Silver Star dining car experiment being extended, it seems almost like a "bait and switch"--they said they'd put the diner back in February, but they lied. The question is why? (Aside from Amtrak wanting to ruin anything nice, of course.)
> 
> Yes, I am bitter about this. I love the Star.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps they "lied" because they thought they may have some new diners by Feb 1st.
Click to expand...




keelhauled said:


> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.





jis said:


> Or unforeseen developments.


AmtrakBlue, keelhauled, and jis--I am in a much more charitable mood today, and I agree that all of your suggestions are quite possible. I will give Amtrak the benefit of the doubt this time. But if they mess with the Meteor next, or my favorite, the Keystone, they will be getting a very stern letter from me.

Also, this is the first time I have figured out how to post more than one answer in a reply--my tech knowledge is growing!


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be a Huge success!
> The Bean Counters @ 60 Mass will probably be holding meetings to find other routes on which to try this "experiment"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that all the dust seems to have settled after my "who sez?" post (I didn't know AmtrakLKL was our mole), kindly allow me opportunity to humbly provide the following regarding Bob Dylan's post:
> Judging from the averages of the July & August 2015 Amtrak monthly reports, it does indeed appear to be a success. Sleeper ridership on the Star rose 30.3% when compared to June 2015. That same comparison done for 2014 showed a ridership increase of 1.9%. The figures for the Meteor over those same periods show ridership increases of 9.4% for 2015 and 5.8% for 2014.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, that's a failure. That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.
> If Amtrak had simply added another Viewliner, they could have gotten the same increase in riders.  Of course, this gets back to the car shortage problem.
Click to expand...

Expenses are down significantly, so it's a financial gain for Amtrak so far.


----------



## Train2104

Paulus said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that all the dust seems to have settled after my "who sez?" post (I didn't know AmtrakLKL was our mole), kindly allow me opportunity to humbly provide the following regarding Bob Dylan's post:
> 
> Judging from the averages of the July & August 2015 Amtrak monthly reports, it does indeed appear to be a success. Sleeper ridership on the Star rose 30.3% when compared to June 2015. That same comparison done for 2014 showed a ridership increase of 1.9%. The figures for the Meteor over those same periods show ridership increases of 9.4% for 2015 and 5.8% for 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's a failure. That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.
> If Amtrak had simply added another Viewliner, they could have gotten the same increase in riders.  Of course, this gets back to the car shortage problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Expenses are down significantly, so it's a financial gain for Amtrak so far.
Click to expand...

Yes, revenue has fallen slightly - perhaps the unbundled fares need to be raised slightly. But a few percentage points of fare increase will still be a huge net decrease over the bundled fares.

If it's a net financial gain for Amtrak AND they're consistently increasing load factors/turnover in both coach and sleeper throughout the route, I'd call it a success. It seems we're most of the way there, but total (coach and sleeper) ridership in August fell more than the LD average. I wonder if people are just upgrading, without attracting new riders.


----------



## niemi24s

It would certainly be nice to know how Amtrak intends to judge the failure or success of the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star. Because that's the only judgement that really, truly matters. What any of us decrees, claims or opines (regardless of many posts we have made) makes no difference to Amtrak. And if it makes no difference to Amtrak it simply does not matter at all. In Bob Dylan's opinion it's a success. In Neroden's opinion it's a failure.

With a measly 500+ posts, my opinion matters not - except it does seem to stir things up occasionally.  So how about this poser that's been sitting around for more than 26 hours in Post #69:

Q: How many many more sleeper riders above that 800 per month would it have taken for the test to be considered even marginally successful (assuming an unlimited supply of sleeper cars)?


----------



## Ryan

I think the answer is in the first line of that post - depends on what metric you want to judge as "success".


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Here's a thought. Would you rather them remove the diner for a period of time and notify you before you travel that there is no diner or would you rather find out on your day of travel that the diner was bad ordered due to it's age and lack of maintenance (due to the plan to replace it with a new one)?


----------



## Thirdrail7

I doubt Amtrak "lied" about the trial period end date anticipating the diners would be in service. It is more likely they like what they saw and/or want to see more information. The Palmetto is under a trial consist change. I fully expect an extension at the end of the trial period.

Additionally, there is another issue that only AmtrakLKL has touched upon. Currently, the diner-less Star is operating with three coaches. I doubt you will see another coach outside peak travel periods unless advanced reservations dictate it is necessary. As such, ridership and revenue may indeed be lower. However, the diners and extra coaches hog fuel. This tiny Star has been running around with one diesel for quite some time. There are people (cough cough) that see the fuel comparisons between the two consists.

So, here is an additional metric: How many seats would you have to sell make the extra coach(es) and and diners worth effort of adding them?

I suppose the answer lies in the travel patterns and what you deem Amtrak's mission to be. If you believe that their job is to control their costs by eliminating waste and abuse while moving as people as possible by making seats available, then you'll say add the seats regardless of their destination and the costs. If your opinion is Amtrak should do a better job controlling their costs by eliminating waste and abuse in addition to weighing the costs of providing the service, then you'll agree that adding a coach, diner and associated support for passenger that aren't going to cover the costs is a bad thing. If you're carrying less passengers ,there are less people to patronize you facilities, particularly if you allow most local passenger than long distance passengers.

On a personal level, I feel passenger trains inherently lose money. They will not make a profit. Therefore, I feel their mission is to move the people. If you aren't moving people, find out why. What can you do to bring people to your product? I'd love nothing more to cut fares but Congress will never allow it. So, marketing must do what they can to entice people to ride.

Personally, serving precooked meals that are just as expensive as a fresh cooked meal in a decent restaurant is not my idea of enticement, but I don't have to balance the books.


----------



## tonys96

niemi24s said:


> It would certainly be nice to know how Amtrak intends to judge the failure or success of the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star. Because that's the only judgement that really, truly matters. What any of us decrees, claims or opines (regardless of many posts we have made) makes no difference to Amtrak. And if it makes no difference to Amtrak it simply does not matter at all. In Bob Dylan's opinion it's a success. In Neroden's opinion it's a failure.


Absolutely agree. And I believe the metric used to determine failure or success will be whichever metric matches the outcome that was desired at the beginning of the "experiment".


----------



## A Voice

Thirdrail7 said:


> Additionally, there is another issue that only AmtrakLKL has touched upon. Currently, the diner-less Star is operating with three coaches. I doubt you will see another coach outside peak travel periods unless advanced reservations dictate it is necessary. As such, ridership and revenue may indeed be lower. However, the diners and extra coaches hog fuel. This tiny Star has been running around with one diesel for quite some time. There are people (cough cough) that see the fuel comparisons between the two consists.


I don't doubt anything you say at all, but both the Star and Meteor have ran a _full_ consist with a single locomotive before. Eliminating one engine obviously saves expenses, but does adding just one or two more cars to the current single-unit train really cost all that much more? As you correctly note the train is going to lose money either way; Even with expense-centered thinking, it seems a strong business case could be made to pay for the incrementally greater operating cost of 25% more coach capacity and superior on-board amenities (dining car), thus providing a justification for higher fares (and hence higher revenue).


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> So, here is an additional metric: How many seats would you have to sell make the extra coach(es) and and diners worth effort of adding them?


I have stated before that I think the absolute minimum number of mostly-full single-level cars to support sit-down dining service financially is around six (three coaches / three sleepers or four coaches / two sleepers). It really ought to be more. I know there are fewer people in the sleeping cars, but they're more likely to be travelling for long distances and need more food, so I think it balances out.

Once you're up to eight revenue cars being served (like the LSL and the Meteor), the cafe gets overwhelmed by lines and a sit-down service becomes practically a necessity.

Cutting the size of the consist, however, is practically always wrong in the long term. Trains thrive on economies of scale, so a smaller consist is a way to drive yourself into the death spiral: you can't accept passengers when they show up (the train is sold out!) so you can never get enough volume to cover your fixed costs. It's a mug's game, and anyone who's doing it is not competent.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Therefore, I feel their mission is to move the people. If you aren't moving people, find out why. What can you do to bring people to your product? I'd love nothing more to cut fares but Congress will never allow it. So, marketing must do what they can to entice people to ride.


Run more coaches and more sleepers. Run faster. Stock enough food and a large enough variety of food, and a sufficiently well-documented list of ingredients, to ensure that people don't have to carry coolers of food on board. (Coolers of food are fine if the train's half-empty, but problematic if you have the large ridership you want.)
I am more or less fine with the cafe food on the Downeaster (and presumably on the Acela though I haven't tried it). The national cafe menu isn't good enough.

And I'm fine with cafe-style service -- *until* it starts turning into lines snaking out to the vestibule, at which point it becomes essential to find another service method.Empire Service usually runs with only 2-4 cars full, and the cafe is fine with that. On really busy days, they fill 7 cars and the cafe is *NOT OK*; the lines are stretching into the next car and it's completely overwhelmed.

Amtrak needs to have a method of food service provision *which can cope with high volumes*, because *high volumes are what trains are for*. At-seat ordering and delivery of cafe food might be highly effective, but I'm pretty sure it would require increasing the number of coach attendants, and publishing and documenting the meal-break hours which they get, since they couldn't get meal breaks when the passengers are getting meals.

Amtrak needs to be prepared to deal with high volumes of passengers, because that's what a successful train service has.

The cafes can't handle high volumes.


----------



## neroden

A Voice said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, there is another issue that only AmtrakLKL has touched upon. Currently, the diner-less Star is operating with three coaches. I doubt you will see another coach outside peak travel periods unless advanced reservations dictate it is necessary. As such, ridership and revenue may indeed be lower. However, the diners and extra coaches hog fuel. This tiny Star has been running around with one diesel for quite some time. There are people (cough cough) that see the fuel comparisons between the two consists.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt anything you say at all, but both the Star and Meteor have ran a _full_ consist with a single locomotive before.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Ahem.

Running a shorter consist is a mug's game. The advantage of trains is that they can handle large volumes efficiently. This is the *only* fundamental advantage of trains. If you're going to run short consists all the time even when the demand is higher, you might as well be running buses, economically speaking. Or taxicabs. That way lies the death of Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> They're right there in the report - going from memory, they're basically flat.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> July posted a 26.2 percent ridership gain in the sleeping cars and a 1.8% decline in revenue.
> 
> August posted a 23.5 percent ridership gain in the sleeping cars and a 6% decline in revenue.
> 
> (both over the same month in 2014)


Bletchulous.

There are about 13 additional sleeper passengers, and between 5 and 7 staff were laid off, so that's basically the rooms vacated by staff being filled.

The correct move was obviously to keep the dining car but add a sleeping car. Or two. And add a coach, probably. Oh right, Amtrak has a sleeping car shortage, and a coach shortage as well. :sigh:

I guess I understand cutting consists because the cars just don't exist. But if Amtrak is cutting consists, and therefore preventing passengers from travelling because of sellout conditions, because of "fuel costs", then Amtrak is managed by idiots who ought to be fired ASAP.


----------



## niemi24s

Bletchulous? Kindly dispel my ignorance of the term.


----------



## Thirdrail7

A Voice said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, there is another issue that only AmtrakLKL has touched upon. Currently, the diner-less Star is operating with three coaches. I doubt you will see another coach outside peak travel periods unless advanced reservations dictate it is necessary. As such, ridership and revenue may indeed be lower. However, the diners and extra coaches hog fuel. This tiny Star has been running around with one diesel for quite some time. There are people (cough cough) that see the fuel comparisons between the two consists.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt anything you say at all, but both the Star and Meteor have ran a _full_ consist with a single locomotive before. Eliminating one engine obviously saves expenses, but does adding just one or two more cars to the current single-unit train really cost all that much more? As you correctly note the train is going to lose money either way; Even with expense-centered thinking, it seems a strong business case could be made to pay for the incrementally greater operating cost of 25% more coach capacity and superior on-board amenities (dining car), thus providing a justification for higher fares (and hence higher revenue).
Click to expand...


Sure, and I have seen 11 coaches, 2 sleepers, 2 cafes with an AEM-7 in the middle being pulled and powered by an AEM-7DC. For the record, they were rated for 10 cars on HEP.

A better example is this move:



We're on the same page and I stated as much in my posts in this thread. They've cut the Star to the point that you don't even have a real reason to operate a diner. It is just like the Cardinal.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, I feel their mission is to move the people. If you aren't moving people, find out why. What can you do to bring people to your product? I'd love nothing more to cut fares but Congress will never allow it. So, marketing must do what they can to entice people to ride.
> 
> 
> 
> Run more coaches and more sleepers. Run faster. Stock enough food and a large enough variety of food, and a sufficiently well-documented list of ingredients, to ensure that people don't have to carry coolers of food on board. (Coolers of food are fine if the train's half-empty, but problematic if you have the large ridership you want.)
> I am more or less fine with the cafe food on the Downeaster (and presumably on the Acela though I haven't tried it). The national cafe menu isn't good enough.
> 
> And I'm fine with cafe-style service -- *until* it starts turning into lines snaking out to the vestibule, at which point it becomes essential to find another service method.Empire Service usually runs with only 2-4 cars full, and the cafe is fine with that. On really busy days, they fill 7 cars and the cafe is *NOT OK*; the lines are stretching into the next car and it's completely overwhelmed.
> 
> Amtrak needs to have a method of food service provision *which can cope with high volumes*, because *high volumes are what trains are for*. At-seat ordering and delivery of cafe food might be highly effective, but I'm pretty sure it would require increasing the number of coach attendants, and publishing and documenting the meal-break hours which they get, since they couldn't get meal breaks when the passengers are getting meals.
> 
> Amtrak needs to be prepared to deal with high volumes of passengers, because that's what a successful train service has.
> 
> The cafes can't handle high volumes.
Click to expand...


Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere. I would love to see long distance trains return to the days of accommodating 360 coach passengers and (roughly) 72 sleeping car passengers.

PS: I think I'm off topic. :wub:


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.


Cutting service? Works for me.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting service? Works for me.
Click to expand...




Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting service? Works for me.
Click to expand...


You again? Great. Let's cut the Pennsylvanian and run a second Cardinal...three days a week. :hi: Your group has done a great job, but I'm afraid more is needed! :giggle:


----------



## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting service? Works for me.
Click to expand...

The largest number of coaches could be released for use elsewhere by cutting service on the Northeast Corridor, such as the Keystones.

Still on board for your cut service plan?

*NOT* that I am in any way advocating such a silly idea, of course.


----------



## A Voice

Thirdrail7 said:


> I would love to see long distance trains return to the days of accommodating 360 coach passengers and (roughly) 72 sleeping car passengers.
> 
> PS: I think I'm off topic. :wub:


Not at all, you're right on track with that suggestion.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting service? Works for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You again? Great. Let's cut the Pennsylvanian and run a second Cardinal...three days a week.
Click to expand...

I would laugh except that's kind of what really happened ... twice (Broadway Limited & Three Rivers)


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

A Voice said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to all of the above...except for one thing. There aren't enough coaches and sleepers without cutting service elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting service? Works for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The largest number of coaches could be released for use elsewhere by cutting service on the Northeast Corridor, such as the Keystones.
> 
> Still on board for your cut service plan?
Click to expand...

If it's an under performing train to free up space for a train more people ride and that makes more money, yes. If it's just for personal reasons to spite someone you don't like, no.


----------



## niemi24s

neroden said:


> That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.


While sleeper passengers are now paying less for the roomettes vacated by the dining car staff, at least they're not getting them for free. That means those vacated rooms are providing _some_ income for Amtrak. And my meager knowledge of economics tells me that's a financial gain for Amtrak - albeit a reduced one.

And you think that's a financial *loss* for Amtrak? Did your economics course - like my algebra ones - include a few lessons about imaginary numbers?


----------



## keelhauled

niemi24s said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just people filling the rooms vacated by the former dining car staff. The trouble is, *they're paying a lot less* for the rooms, so it's a financial loss for Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> While sleeper passengers are now paying less for the roomettes vacated by the dining car staff, at least they're not getting them for free. That means those vacated rooms are providing _some_ income for Amtrak. And my meager knowledge of economics tells me that's a financial gain for Amtrak - albeit a reduced one.
> 
> And you think that's a financial *loss* for Amtrak? Did your economics course - like my algebra ones - include a few lessons about imaginary numbers?
Click to expand...

Yeah but each passenger pays less for the accommodation. Say it used to be (THESE ARE EXAMPLE NUMBERS TO PROVE A POINT AND IF ANYONE TELLS ME MY DATA IS WRONG I WILL CRY) 50 sleeper passengers over the coarse of the trip, each paying an average of $300. There's $15,000 in revenue. Now 60 people are in the sleepers, but they're paying an average of $230, and your revenue is only $13,800. But of coarse you dropped the diner, so did you save more than $1,200? I don't know, but the point is, there are several things happening at the same time, which means that success or failure of the experiment is very much in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Ryan

YOUR DATA IS WRONG AND YOU SHOULD CRY. h34r:

You make a good point, and it's highly likely that Amtrak is saving more than the notional $1,200 by not running the diner.

But by that metric, Amtrak could cut all of their losses by shutting down. While an absurd reduction, it underscores the point that Amtrak should be operated as a service, not as a business. Too bad the paymasters on the Hill insist on the latter instead of the former.


----------



## niemi24s

Of course they pay less for the accommodations - it's the Star test period. Seems to me it would be a financial loss only if the rooms occupied by the diner staff were paid for by money out of the diner staff members pocket and they paid more than than reduced fares of the test period. But I only had one course in basic economics - never took creative accounting.


----------



## keelhauled

Ryan said:


> But by that metric, Amtrak could cut all of their losses by shutting down. While an absurd reduction, it underscores the point that Amtrak should be operated as a service, not as a business. Too bad the paymasters on the Hill insist on the latter instead of the former.


Yeah it's a bit of a slippery slope isn't it? I am optimistic that Amtrak does actually want to run trains, and isn't planning on using the Star experiment as justification or cover for completely axing services, because I have no doubt that three different people with three different opinions can look at the same data and find a way to use it to support their point of view. But I suppose we shall see.


----------



## City of Miami

Didn't Joe Boardman make an agreement about a year ago with Rep. Mica or some relevant Congressional committee to reduce the food and beverage losses to zero within five years? Did I dream this? If he did this, I'm sure he had his reasons and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he is trying to fulfill that pledge. It seems to me that all of the changes and machinations that are complained about on AU have their root cause here. Amtrak is trying, perhaps fumbling around, to find ways to at least minimize f/b losses if not eliminate them altogether. Not trying to commit suicide; not trying to kill passenger service; not trying to alienate customers.


----------



## jis

This is actually de ja vue all over again as they say. In the 90s a pledge was made to Congress to reduce overall operating subsidies to zero, which led to some pretty bizarre behavior and experimentation, leading finally to Warrington's departure and Amtrak on the brink of bankruptcy. At least this time around the brink of bankruptcy thing is unlikely to happen, but the bizarre behavior will continue for a while until it will lead to failure of that specific unrealistic pledge and maybe Boardman's head will roll (but rumor has it that he has been planning to retire for a while anyway) and the world will go on with no one asking for making F&B profitable by itself for quite a while. The question is how soon that breakpoint will come to pass.

And before one goes about blaming Warrington or Boardman, remember, that these sorts of pledges are usually extracted under some amount of duress threatening something worse if the pledge is not made. Rightly or wrongly the lesser of the two evils is chosen by the guy in the hot seat. If you have never been in such a hot seat, you'll never know what I am talking about.


----------



## dlagrua

Terrible, absolutely terrible! You are on a train for up to 20 hours and you can't even get a decent meal? We travel on Amtrak because the dining is part of the LD expereince. Remove it and passenger rail travel becomes far less attractive. The "Silver Star is curently on our "no ride" list.

For God sakes if they must go cheap, at least offer the Cardinal "diner lite" food service. Its not great but passable for a day and an overnight.


----------



## xyzzy

Problems with sleepers and diners could be resolved by converting Amtrak to daylight-only trains. If I were confident that I will still be alive in 25 years, I'd bet that only four overnight LD trains will have survived by then (AT, CS, one of the Chicago-NY or Chicago-DC trains, and one of the Chicago-west coast trains). Railfans will moan bitterly. Only a small percentage of the public will even notice, just like only a small percentage of the public noticed when most overnight trains died on or before Amtrak Day.


----------



## A Voice

xyzzy said:


> Problems with sleepers and diners could be resolved by converting Amtrak to daylight-only trains.


What, people don't _eat_ during the _daylight_ anymore?

I understand what you are suggesting, but it isn't really a practical suggestion given the overwhelming intermediate-point ridership of most long-distance trains. Wherever you put the 'breaking point' for a once continuous route, a majority of the passengers were previously travelling _through_ that intermediate point. You have now almost completely lost that business.

Separate daytime trains over portions of a long-distance do make perfect sense - but in addition to the flagship train running the complete route, not in place of it. A Carolina to Florida day train might have a workable market, but you could never expect it and the Palmetto to take the place of the _Star_ and _Meteor_.


----------



## jis

There is also the fallacy of "very small percent of people will miss it" using a universe consisting of an unrealistically large population to come up with a low figure. Of course if the NEC goes away a relatively small percentage of the US population will miss it, and an even smaller percentage of the world population will miss it. but that does not make it any less important for the relavent population group for whom it is relevant.


----------



## xyzzy

With all due respect to Jis he is flat-out wrong about the NEC. Of course it would be missed, and not by a few. I assume Jis favors retention of the Essential Air Service program, which is kept alive by the same rationale that it's very important to a few people. To a very few people. (Ironically there are EAS airports in the same cities as Amtrak stations... go figure). There's a point where Captain Kirk's line "the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the money" collapses into nonsense. In my opinion LD trains are right on the razor's edge. Redeploying LD assets to corridor trains, 100-400 miles in length, is where the future lies.


----------



## jis

You are very astute in pointing out that I do support the LD trains, and indeed in certain cases I would have no problem supporting the EAS either. What can I say, I am a sucker for helping minorities. It is boring to beat the drum of majority causes since there is very little to contribute there. 

Now explain to me, why would anyone in California or Poland miss the NEC service provided by Amtrak. It is only those that happen to use or have a potential to use the NEC Amtrak service that will miss it directly. Indirectly of course a larger group of people will miss it in terms of the traffic jams that they might get into, though it is not really that drastic with just Amtrak out.

Since you mentioned "small percentage" I assumed that this was being calculated relative to some universal set. I have never said that the absolute number of people that might miss the Amtrak NEC is small. But when you say "percentage" the issue is what population are you calculating the percentage relative to? Keep in mind that the NEC is actually used by a relatively small percentage of the US population, and the Amtrak NEC service even less so. No, the ridership of NEC does not give us the number of distinct people that use the NEC. That is a much much smaller number than the ridership numbers.

That was my whole point. So when a statement is made saying a "_small percentage_" would miss something it makes sense to think about what is the universe of discourse of which the small percentage is. These are statistical games that are played all the time. When one wants to claim something is important, one carefully chooses a suitably "gerrymandered" universal set to make the percentages come out big. When it is the opposite case one just uses an appropriate plausible large enough universal set to show how minuscule the affected group is. This is the problem with the argument that _all rail service _should be unfunded and more roads built because clearly only a small percentage of the population will ever use the railroads, whereas everyone uses the roads. An argument that by the way I reject for the same reason that I reject your argument.

Ironically I also believe that the primary growth area is likely to be corridors too. But unlike you, I am unwilling to throw the LD system under the bus. Just like I do support building roads where necessary, but I am unwilling to abandon the passenger railroad system. I am afraid you will have to learn to live with the likes of me whether you like it or not. However, it would appear to be the case that we agree on a few few things and disagree on others, which is usually the normal state of the world. nothing to get all upset about. But I agree that there will be a disagreement about LD trains, and at least on this board clearly there are many that would like to see expansion of LD trains not contraction. So there is an interesting discussion to be had.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

dlagrua said:


> Terrible, absolutely terrible! You are on a train for up to 20 hours and you can't even get a decent meal? We travel on Amtrak because the dining is part of the LD expereince. Remove it and passenger rail travel becomes far less attractive. The "Silver Star is curently on our "no ride" list.
> 
> For God sakes if they must go cheap, at least offer the Cardinal "diner lite" food service. Its not great but passable for a day and an overnight.


You're entitled to your opinion. I traveled coast to coast back and forth last July/August and never ate in the dining car once. I do realize that many people think the LD experience is important. The problem is for anything high quality it would cost twice as much as you can get for similar items outside. I kind of like having a cheaper sleeper option where you don't have to pay way more for diner service. Ideally we'd have both options but doing so would make sleeper + diner so expensive almost no one could afford it. I kind of like the idea of some trains having no diner if there are comparable trains. Unless you live in Raleigh or a market that is not served by the Silver Meteor, take the Meteor. But shouldn't some people be able to get a bed and not pay $40 a meal? If you can accommodate both these people and the sleeper+diner option on the same train, great. But if the train is too expensive for the common folk to afford a sleeper (or worse a coach seat) so people can still eat on fine china that to me is not a good thing.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible, absolutely terrible! You are on a train for up to 20 hours and you can't even get a decent meal? We travel on Amtrak because the dining is part of the LD expereince. Remove it and passenger rail travel becomes far less attractive. The "Silver Star is curently on our "no ride" list.
> 
> For God sakes if they must go cheap, at least offer the Cardinal "diner lite" food service. Its not great but passable for a day and an overnight.
> 
> 
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion. I traveled coast to coast back and forth last July/August and never ate in the dining car once. I do realize that many people think the LD experience is important. The problem is for anything high quality it would cost twice as much as you can get for similar items outside. I kind of like having a cheaper sleeper option where you don't have to pay way more for diner service. Ideally we'd have both options but doing so would make sleeper + diner so expensive almost no one could afford it. I kind of like the idea of some trains having no diner if there are comparable trains. Unless you live in Raleigh or a market that is not served by the Silver Meteor, take the Meteor. But shouldn't some people be able to get a bed and not pay $40 a meal? If you can accommodate both these people and the sleeper+diner option on the same train, great. But if the train is too expensive for the common folk to afford a sleeper (or worse a coach seat) so people can still eat on fine china that to me is not a good thing.
Click to expand...

I actually tend to agree with you in general on this Philly. All that I would like to see is a little improvement in the Cafe service as I have mentioned in one of the threads (I forget which). Given the choice and a reasonable cafe car (even something like the Cascades or Downeaster) I'd occasionally use the Dining Car but mostly use the Cafe.

When there still were Slumbercoaches that did not include Diner charges, whereas all regular Sleeping accommodation did, I never ever traveled on regular Sleeper. always took Slumbercoach. I am cheap, what can I say? And I enjoyed every bit of it.


----------



## John Bobinyec

AmtrakLKL said:


> Ruh-roh... The no diner "experiment" on the Silver Star has been extended through April 30, 2016.
> 
> Edit: Sleeper space has been blanked Feb 1 - Apr 30 for the fare changes to be put into place. As before, passengers who have already booked during this period can:
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers receive a full refund of the difference between fare paid and lowest "no-meal" fare.
> Sleepers may rebook on Silver Meteor at no charge, original fare will be honored if Meteor is higher. If Meteor is sold out, may rebook within 4 days on either side of original travel date. Refund without penalty if Meteor fare is lower.
> Cancel and receive full refund with no penalty.
> Coach passengers may also rebook to Meteor at no additional charge. Must rebook on same date only. Refund without penalty if Meteor is lower fare.


Still haven't seen an official Amtrak notice on this but we got the official Amtrak email stating this exactly. Our trip was for February.

jb


----------



## City of Miami

I got the email too for my March MIA=CVS AGR redemption. There no points adjustment so I guess I'll try to switch to 98 with the earlier departure + less desirable connection in Virginia. Oh hell, I'll probably drop the whole thing :-(


----------



## Dixie

Departing Friday on the Star from Columbia bound for Miami. A week later we'll be making the return journey. It would be nice to have the full dining car back but oh well. The posted Cafe menu does not inspire confidence in my meals for those two days. We've had some really enjoyable times in the dining car on that train. We are going on a cruise, so it will be impossible to pack any of our own for the return trip, though can do for the trip down. Coming off the ship, the train will be a big letdown. Make no mistake, I knew this months ago, but was hoping the situation would be resolved on schedule for future trips on the Star. I'm happy to have a room and bed for my 18+ hours of travel to my cruise port, but the dining car sure would have been nice. Disappointed that breakfast choices are basically a honey bun or microwaved sausage biscuit. And lunch/dinner ... It's as if they don't think there are any distance travelers on the train who might want something more than what they can get at the Sam's Club snack bar.

Thanks to those who posted the menus so we know what to expect. It will be interesting to see how all this works out in due time.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I actually tend to agree with you in general on this Philly. All that I would like to see is a little improvement in the Cafe service as I have mentioned in one of the threads (I forget which). Given the choice and a reasonable cafe car (even something like the Cascades or Downeaster) I'd occasionally use the Dining Car but mostly use the Cafe.


Downeaster's the only Amtrak service where I've gotten an acceptable breakfast in the Cafe. (The Oatmeal.)
It's actually breakfast where I find I have to go to the dining car on the other trains. I don't know if this is typical, but I'd expect it; the breakfast selection is dismal even in the Regional and Empire Service cafes.

I've stated before that sleepers are a profitable and worthwhile market; Paulus and I hashed out the math on this, and they seem to be slightly less profitable than coaches on most of the eastern routes, but more profitable on the Lake Shore Limited. But of course on all these routes they're attracting riders who *wouldn't ride coach*, mostly longer-distance riders, so they're a profitable area period. I haven't dug into the western trains but I would be surprised if the math is significantly different.

----

Dining cars are another matter; it's just necessary to provide good-enough food service for passengers travelling far enough to need to eat. There are two aspects to this:

(1) Food quality and selection. Since I started travelling Amtrak, the dining cars have declined in quality and selection a lot; the cafe cars have risen in quality a little, but not *enough*. Since the food costs are insignificant compared to the labor, this is *not* the place to skimp.

(2) Service. Both the dining cars and the cafe cars suffer from excessive lines and very bad stocking practices. (The stocking could be improved with a POS inventory tracking system.) The dining cars suffer from poor space usage (some OBS have described this as due to understaffing). The cafe cars suffer additionally from badly-planned closure schedules which lose business.

On trains where the volume of passengers is low enough to avoid major lines at the cafe car, the cafe car is probably sufficient. On trains where it isn't, something more needs to be provided: at-seat cart service is something Amtrak could try instead of a dining car.

Amtrak says that the cafe cars are all profitable already, so they're gonna keep running. If cafe car service can be improved enough, and additional forms of service (cart service, at-seat service) can be added to prevent the formation of long lines, a "super-cafe" offering (with two staff members operating the cafe, much-expanded selection, and restocking at multiple points on the route) might be sufficient even for the longest trains. Unfortunately Amtrak has shown no signs of doing that.


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## Palmetto

Let's not forget that the Downeaster is not an Amtrak service. It's a NERPRA service and the food service is contracted out to Epicurean Delight [i think]. That explains why it's such a radical departure from the normal Amtrak eating fare.


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## Eric S

Well, it's an Amtrak service as much as any state-supported corridor is (other than Hoosier State, which is a unique situation). The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) is an agency created by the State of Maine, not all that much different from a direct MeDOT subsidy, or from the Joint Powers Authority situation in California for that matter.

Not sure whether anything prevents other state-supported corridors from setting up similar food service to the Downeaster.


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## jis

Yes. But Silver Star, which is the subject of this thread, is not a state supported corridor train.


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## Eric S

jis said:


> Yes. But Silver Star, which is the subject of this thread, is not a state supported corridor train.


What, you mean we shouldn't stray off topic? I thought that was an AU specialty.


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## Palmetto

I'll stand by what I said. Like the Hoosier State, Downeasters use Amtak T&E crews, and food service is provided by a non-Amtrak entity.

Amtrak sponsors neither and therefore incurs no loss if there is any, and reaps no income if there is any.


----------



## philabos

Interesting idea from the UK.

Cross Country is the intercity provider for trains not originating or terminating in London and handle about 30 million passengers per year. They have been under criticism for their Amcafe style food, so came up with the solution of ordering your ticket and food at the same time. They only load the hot meals they will actually sell and do not disappoint others by running out.

Since they reserve individual seats they simply match the meal and seat on board.

I do not think that particular solution would work here, but Amtrak has tables and a place to heat food.

As an alternative, Amtrak could match the meal with the passenger in the cafe or diner.

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/278100/cateringmenu.pdf


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## Just-Thinking-51

Cross country dinning menus look great.

The night train to Scotland is getting a major overhaul, with a major list of require foods.

I think that state support trains will be requiring better foods, however the fact is they just learned how to contract with Amtrak for base train service. So the new rail dept will get into the issue in the next phase.

Better service, more trains, and faster travel times.

Does NY even have a rail division, or a single point of contact yet?


----------



## neroden

philabos said:


> Interesting idea from the UK.
> 
> Cross Country is the intercity provider for trains not originating or terminating in London and handle about 30 million passengers per year. They have been under criticism for their Amcafe style food, so came up with the solution of ordering your ticket and food at the same time. They only load the hot meals they will actually sell and do not disappoint others by running out.
> 
> Since they reserve individual seats they simply match the meal and seat on board.


Sounds great. Amtrak would need to actually accurately and completely document what's in each meal, in advance of ordering, of course (a personal complaint of mine which prevents me from eating most of the dining car food now).



> I do not think that particular solution would work here, but Amtrak has tables and a place to heat food.


I think it would work more or less. I'm going to add a point: the passenger could also reserve a *time* for their meal with the ticket purchase.


> As an alternative, Amtrak could match the meal with the passenger in the cafe or diner.


This would work too.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Does NY even have a rail division, or a single point of contact yet?


Yes, and no.

That is to say: yes to the first question, no to the second question.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/passenger-rail

It's New York! It has two rail divisions!

The Freight and Passenger Rail Bureau is part of the Office of Integrated Modal Services which is part of the Policy and Planning Division. It has

The Rail Projects Group is part of the Engineering Division.

And as for single point of contact... I found:

11 regional rail coordinators

1 RPG director

1 "FRB" director (probably FPRB director in reality)

And it looks like some rail services are handled by yet other people and other divisions.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.


----------



## greatcats

Is that official or is the diner return postponed again? Perhaps you are jumping to conclusions.


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## AmtrakBlue

greatcats said:


> Is that official or is the diner return postponed again? Perhaps you are jumping to conclusions.


I believe AmtrakLKL is in a position to know things rather than to speculate on them.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

AmtrakLKL said:


> As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.


So, we should see four slightly used Viewliner Diner cars up for sale on eBay soon?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> … The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed ...
> 
> 
> 
> So, we should see four slightly used Viewliner Diner cars up for sale on eBay soon?
Click to expand...

Any not-yet-used Viewliner Diners should fetch a nice price on eBay. Amtrak is the only buyer in the market, but it's desperate for equipment to be used elsewhere.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I thought the Viewliners were designed to be modular, correct? If so can former Viewliner diners be converted to coach or sleeper cars with a vending machine or automat? Wait, haven't we seen this before somewhere?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> So, we should see four slightly used Viewliner Diner cars up for sale on eBay soon?
Click to expand...

Slightly used? Probably brand new, never used, mint-in-yard condition. :giggle:


----------



## neroden

Amtrak management: cutting off nose to spite face.

The future of the Amtrak Florida services looks very poor from where I'm looking. All Aboard Florida is poised to eat their intra-Florida business; first Orlando-Miami, then Orlando-Jacksonville and Miami-Jacksonville, and everyone expects Tampa next.

The Silver Meteor will suffer from this but will be supported by the Florida-(DC/NY) market.

The Silver Star mostly exists to serve Tampa and when the Tampa business dries up I wouldn't be surprised to see it cancelled entirely. With unacceptable levels of service for an overnight train, the Florida-(DC/NYC) business isn't going to keep it afloat.

If I were Amtrak I would be making plans to relocate Hialeah maintenance yard. It's in a bad location prone to flooding in any case -- all of Florida south of Orlando is a bad location prone to flooding -- and the Viewliners should be maintained nearer to their primary point of deployment, New York City.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> The future of the Amtrak Florida services looks very poor from where I'm looking. All Aboard Florida is poised to eat their intra-Florida business; first Orlando-Miami, then Orlando-Jacksonville and Miami-Jacksonville, and everyone expects Tampa next.


Brightline (formerly known as All Aboard Florida) can't get anyone to buy their tax-free municipal bonds to pay for the construction. They just received a second extension for one more year to sell the bonds. It appears investors are skeptical there will be enough riders to make a profit (gasp!).


----------



## jebr

Part of me is holding out hope that it's "permanent" only in the sense of "we don't know when the new diners will arrive, so we'll just keep it off until we have the dining cars to support the servce, and then magically we'll restore dining car service."

Hope springs eternal, I know, but it seems really strange that they'd keep the diner removed even once the new dining cars come into service, whenever they do.


----------



## KnightRail

PERMANENT

For those needing further clarification on the definition of Permanent: adjective - "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely."

Again, PERMANENT.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

AmtrakLKL said:


> As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.


Have they layoff the crews off yet? Or did they forget to?

Sorry but into Amtrak cuts the staffing to support only one train with a dining cars, then I believe it.

Mr.Boardman retirement can not come soon enough.

Death by a thousand cuts, or death by negligence. Pick one. Nice pattern of we don't care for anything other than the NEC.


----------



## Ryan

KnightRail said:


> PERMANENT
> 
> For those needing further clarification on the definition of Permanent: adjective - "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely."
> 
> Again, PERMANENT.


 Thanks for that valuable insight. I suppose that means that the Sunset Limited is going to start running any moment since the suspension is only temporary?



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Mr.Boardman retirement can not come soon enough.
> 
> Death by a thousand cuts, or death by negligence. Pick one. Nice pattern of we don't care for anything other than the NEC.


Right. That's why there are new Viewliners rolling off of the production line. And BC being added to LD trains. And wifi. And negotiations for re-routing (TE) and to keep routes alive (SWC).

Stupid statements like "we don't care for anything other than the NEC" can't be retired soon enough.


----------



## Train2104

I'd much rather have this than see City of New Orleans style-dining cars, especially of trains that see 3 or fewer meals in a trip.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ryan said:


> Right. That's why there are new Viewliners rolling off of the production line. And BC being added to LD trains. And wifi. And negotiations for re-routing (TE) and to keep routes alive (SWC).
> 
> Stupid statements like "we don't care for anything other than the NEC" can't be retired soon enough.


Viewliner were order years ago.

BC is haphazard if not a simple money grab.

Reroute of TE been in progress years now.

SWC is also Amtrak inaction, not proactive.

Improvements Wifi on long distance train? Maybe or just a NEC program that crossed over. (Slowly)

Only recent improve that might be a sign of some cares. Would be the adding a car to the Cardinal for business class. Of course with the three day a week schedule, not as helpful as running daily.

So yes I still a high level of inaction on the long distance fleet. Lots of low hanging improvements available. So I stand by my statements.


----------



## Ryan

I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

AmtrakLKL said:


> Slightly used? Probably brand new, never used, mint-in-yard condition. :giggle:


I would assume, like with a new vehicle, as soon as Amtrak "drives" them away to bring them to Miami or Wilmington, they are used.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ryan said:


> I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.


Yes however he has given up on the long distance trains only recently, and now is NEC only guy. IMHO


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes however he has given up on the long distance trains only recently, and now is NEC only guy. IMHO
Click to expand...

Well I suppose my and Ryan's MHO disagrees with yours, and since they are just opinions it is OK. 
Trust me, if Boardman was really in favor of shutting down the LD trains several would have been gone already. Heck we could star a thread to discuss which ones first  . But whatever rocks ones boat ....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes however he has given up on the long distance trains only recently, and now is NEC only guy. IMHO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well I suppose my and Ryan's MHO disagrees with yours, and since they are just opinions it is OK.
> Trust me, if Boardman was really in favor of shutting down the LD trains several would have been gone already. *Heck we could star a thread to discuss which ones first*  . But whatever rocks ones boat ....
Click to expand...

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

I wonder if Amtrak could do a "reverse" experiment with the Silver Meteor.

Add a Business Class coach, physically located on the Sleeper side of the Dining Car, and have BC include meals too. Kind of echoing the AutoTrain upgrading their new BC passengers to Sleeper level meals.

Silver Star: No meals. Bring a bologna sandwich from home, or buy a Kwik-E-Mart hot dog from café.

Silver Meteor: Meals for Sleeper and Business Class. Maybe even add a second Dining Car to handle the number of diners (the one the Star will never be using).


----------



## niemi24s

Just did an Amsnag search for the Star for Nov 2016 and saw that no fares for sleeper accommodations were posted. Does this mean:

• They'll be posted as soon as they figure out what to post, or

• The sleepers are also being pulled?


----------



## Ryan

Answered here:



AmtrakLKL said:


> As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.


----------



## CCC1007

With no proof, I find it hard to believe that the dinner will never come back.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CCC1007 said:


> With no proof, I find it hard to believe that the dinner will never come back.


As I stated before, I think you can believe AmtrakLKL.


----------



## CCC1007

Ok, maybe I am just very skeptical about a change of this scale.


----------



## jis

Remember it is Amtrak. Inconsistency and unkept promises is their forte. You can never tell what will actually happen "forever" based on anyone's statement.

A change of regime is coming up. No choice other than to wait and see IMHO.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes however he has given up on the long distance trains only recently, and now is NEC only guy. IMHO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ... if Boardman was really in favor of shutting down the LD trains, several would have been gone already. *Heck we could start a thread to discuss which ones first*  . ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! 

*The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.* Not less.

More cars, more frequencies, more routes, more connections, more stations with longer platforms, more ADA-compliant facilities, more passengers, more revenue, more investment.

With Boardman's help, one of the first Stimulus projects completed was to take 90-plus cars out of the wreck yard. Most of the rehabs were Superliners, and soon went to work improving the Western LD trains.

Next came the order for 70 new electric locomotives to more reliably haul trains on the NEC. Medium distance and LD trains like the _Crescent_, _Star_, _Meteor_, _Palmetto_, _Carolinian_, _Cardinal_, _Lynchburger_, the _Newport News train_, and the _Norfolk train_, as well as the _Pennsylvanian_ and the _Vermonter_.

Even the specs for the orders for next-generation bi-level cars and the new diesels to haul them, in the Mid-West and on the West Coast, were worked out with Amtrak in the lead.

Of course, what Amtrak needs most is 1,200 new coaches and a couple hundred locomotives, to replace obsoleting equipment both single-level and bi-level, and to expand service. Count that in the Billions and then be prepared to wait n wait -- and that won't be Boardman's fault, or the NEC's.

Boardman has steadied Amtrak, after a period when CEOs came and mostly _*went *_with disturbing frequency, and it's been a productive, no-drama administration.

Meanwhile, before Boardman, it seemed like every article about Amtrak started with a paragraph about the characteristic lateness of its trains. I guess the on time performance has improved, or maybe Boardman has been able to quietly change the topic of the conversation.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Boardman has been president for "years now" as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Heck we could star a thread to discuss which ones first  . But whatever rocks ones boat ....
Click to expand...

IINM we've been down that road several times on AU! Most of us feel that INCREASING the number of Trains

and frequencies and NOT eliminating Trains is the smart way to go!


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The future of the Amtrak Florida services looks very poor from where I'm looking. All Aboard Florida is poised to eat their intra-Florida business; first Orlando-Miami, then Orlando-Jacksonville and Miami-Jacksonville, and everyone expects Tampa next.
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline (formerly known as All Aboard Florida) can't get anyone to buy their tax-free municipal bonds to pay for the construction. They just received a second extension for one more year to sell the bonds. It appears investors are skeptical there will be enough riders to make a profit (gasp!).
Click to expand...

Nah, they're just raising the interest rates. You can always sell bonds if the interest rate is high enough.

Construction is actually already *happening*, so the bonds are backfill financing.


----------



## OBS

I was afraid this was going to happen. The new National timetable makes NO mention of Dining Car for the Silver Star ( as opposed to mentioning it returning in the spring).

As soon as I saw that, I smelled trouble....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

CCC1007 said:


> With no proof, I find it hard to believe that the dinner will never come back.


Maybe it'll be back in the form of a vending machine with "Amtrak Diner" on the front.



OBS said:


> I was afraid this was going to happen. The new National timetable makes NO mention of Dining Car for the Silver Star ( as opposed to mentioning it returning in the spring). As soon as I saw that, I smelled trouble....


I smelled trouble when Boardman promised that major dining service loses would somehow be resolved or erased in the next few years.


----------



## Bob Dylan

OBS said:


> I was afraid this was going to happen. The new National timetable makes NO mention of Dining Car for the Silver Star ( as opposed to mentioning it returning in the spring).
> 
> As soon as I saw that, I smelled trouble....


Yep, the vending machines are on the way for the Star and the CONO! Right out of the old SP Playbook,!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I wonder if Amtrak could do a "reverse" experiment with the Silver Meteor.
> 
> Add a Business Class coach, physically located on the Sleeper side of the Dining Car, and have BC include meals too. Kind of echoing the AutoTrain upgrading their new BC passengers to Sleeper level meals.
> 
> Silver Star: No meals. Bring a bologna sandwich from home, or buy a Kwik-E-Mart hot dog from café.
> 
> Silver Meteor: Meals for Sleeper and Business Class. Maybe even add a second Dining Car to handle the number of diners (the one the Star will never be using).


There was talk of adding a business class to the Meteor many years ago. Called for coaches with 2-1 leather seating and providing an upgraded soft product (amenity kit, coffee, tea, juice, newspaper, etc). Obviously didn't happen, possibly due to the upfront cost of re-configuring the cars and the subsequent loss of coach capacity. Maybe with Amtrak proving the existing seats sell with just the upgraded soft product, perhaps it'll come back around.

In the back of my mind I just worry business class coming to the Star would spell the end of sleepers there. Not that Amtrak has a history of replacing sleepers with business class on a Silver Service train before...


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Bob Dylan said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was afraid this was going to happen. The new National timetable makes NO mention of Dining Car for the Silver Star ( as opposed to mentioning it returning in the spring).
> 
> As soon as I saw that, I smelled trouble....
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, the vending machines are on the way for the Star and the CONO! Right out of the old SP Playbook,!
Click to expand...

Interestingly, some of the new super hi-tech Vending Machines can actually dish out chow that is better than what the Diners currently put out. I've even seen Vending Machines that dump out Sushi, but unless Amtrak starts to allow cats on board, we'll stay away from those


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The future of the Amtrak Florida services looks very poor from where I'm looking. All Aboard Florida is poised to eat their intra-Florida business; first Orlando-Miami, then Orlando-Jacksonville and Miami-Jacksonville, and everyone expects Tampa next.
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline (formerly known as All Aboard Florida) can't get anyone to buy their tax-free municipal bonds to pay for the construction. They just received a second extension for one more year to sell the bonds. It appears investors are skeptical there will be enough riders to make a profit (gasp!).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah, they're just raising the interest rates. You can always sell bonds if the interest rate is high enough.
> Construction is actually already *happening*, so the bonds are backfill financing.
Click to expand...

AAF has said several times that using those bonds is a convenience, not a necessity. Even if they are not sold they have the ability to finance the entire project using other resources. It is amazing what sort of things are possible when a huge real estate empire is providing financial backing!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The future of the Amtrak Florida services looks very poor from where I'm looking. All Aboard Florida is poised to eat their intra-Florida business; first Orlando-Miami, then Orlando-Jacksonville and Miami-Jacksonville, and everyone expects Tampa next.
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline (formerly known as All Aboard Florida) can't get anyone to buy their tax-free municipal bonds to pay for the construction. They just received a second extension for one more year to sell the bonds. It appears investors are skeptical there will be enough riders to make a profit (gasp!).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah, they're just raising the interest rates. You can always sell bonds if the interest rate is high enough.
> Construction is actually already *happening*, so the bonds are backfill financing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AAF has said several times that using those bonds is a convenience, not a necessity. Even if they are not sold they have the ability to finance the entire project using other resources. It is amazing what sort of things are possible when a huge real estate empire is providing financial backing!
Click to expand...

I have no doubt it will be built and both hope and expect it to be successful. However, whatever ridership numbers they're trying to sell to investors must not be very convincing.

I don't expect Brightline will significantly impact Amtrak. There is a good chance it will raise Amtrak's ridership by growing awareness and the overall market for rail transportation. The new Brightline advertising and marketing will inevitably lead some people to Amtrak. Once there, people may find convenience in the additional stations Amtrak serves throughout Florida or the lower fares compared to Brightline.


----------



## neroden

I'm not as optimistic as you are. I think *overall*, *nationally*, Brightline will be good for Amtrak. I expect people riding Brightline will add to the Amtrak ridership from Florida to NY and beyond, as "train awareness" causes them to consider taking train trips they didn't know about before.

But the Silver Service has a lot of intra-Florida business, and I simply don't see that continuing once Brightline is serving the same corridor. Amtrak trains are slow and are often delayed because they're coming from up north. Brightline trains will run on time, and faster. Amtrak's intra-Florida business will mostly vanish.

Which is fine for passenger rail as a whole! It just means that Amtrak ought to be focusing on the Florida-Northwards business and I don't see them doing that.


----------



## Palmetto

Brightline has already mentioned the possibility of going up to JAX in the future. Going over to Tampa is a hope of some people there, but Brightline acknowledged they'll have to deal with CSX, and it would be more of a challenge than it would be to go up to JAX on their own tracks.


----------



## CHamilton

From the Facebook Silver Star and Silver Meteor group.


----------



## greatcats

Morons.


----------



## Acela150

I think Jishnu had a good response to it.


----------



## Anderson

In light of recent events...I agree a lot more than I wish I did.


----------



## rrdude

Saw this on a FB posting yesterday, in "America's Amtrak" FB group. Can someone confirm or deny? Amtrak's booking engine shows the SS diner only removed thru April 30th. This would truly suck, and increase the angle of the so-called, "Slippery Slope".

Apologies: Saw this was already announced in another thread, HERE, so if Mods want to merge or delete this fine, so it DOES look official, that really, really, really, sux.


----------



## Paulus

Not surprising given the massive amount of money Amtrak saves by not hauling a diner.


----------



## niemi24s

I think this is great. One less diner for the food snoots to bellyache about food quality.


----------



## rrdude

niemi24s said:


> I think this is great. One less diner for the food snoots to bellyache about food quality.


You think an LD train _*without*_ a diner is a good idea?

I guess I am one of the "Food Snoots" you refer to, but having worked on board Amtrak as a kid, I know the quality of food that CAN be produced and served in the diners. It is like watching your favorite restaurant, of 30 or 40 years, start serving food that is not even as good as what you get at a Denny's or Applebee's. I guess if you think that is good food, (and I certainly do not) that makes me a food snoot.

If there is *not going to be a diner*, then I am all for contracting the AmCan food service out, it cannot be any worse............(maybe it can, but that would be a new low)


----------



## edjbox

Amtrak should've put a diner/lounge on the Silver Star like they do with the Cardinal


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

rrdude said:


> You think an LD train _*without*_ a diner is a good idea?


Its a good idea, only as long as the Amtrak LD trains makes regular stops to give all passengers a chance to get off, and have a local meal; breakfast, lunch, and dinner/supper.

Remember, dining cars were added to LD passenger trains, not because the RR wanted to get into the lucrative restaurant business, but rather to eliminate these long meal stops.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think an LD train _*without*_ a diner is a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> Its a good idea, only as long as the Amtrak LD trains makes regular stops to give all passengers a chance to get off, and have a local meal; breakfast, lunch, and dinner/supper.
> 
> Remember, dining cars were added to LD passenger trains, not because the RR wanted to get into the lucrative restaurant business, but rather to eliminate these long meal stops.
Click to expand...

Contrary to popular opinion, lounge car food is still food. I went from Pennsylvania to California and back on lounge car food and I survived.


----------



## jis

Though it would be trivial to improve the menu for the lounge fare a bit on trains where they are subbing for diners.


----------



## niemi24s

rrdude said:


> You think an LD train _*without*_ a diner is a good idea?


Sorry. Looks like my feeble attempt at a bit of humor fell flat on its face.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.


Well, look at the bright side. Years ago, the Palmetto was a combined train that made local stops on the NEC. Then, they separated it and ran it as an additional train. Now, it is back to the way it used to be. See? it came back! Hope springs eternal, my young apprentice!!! :giggle:



jis said:


> Remember it is Amtrak. Inconsistency and unkept promises is their forte. You can never tell what will actually happen "forever" based on anyone's statement.
> 
> A change of regime is coming up. No choice other than to wait and see IMHO.


Indeed. Who knows what the next group will attempt. They learn by doing....and undoing....and redoing....and not doing...... :help:


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Though it would be trivial to improve the menu for the lounge fare a bit on trains where they are subbing for diners.


Amtrak is remarkably unwilling to improve the lounge car menus on long-distance trains. This seems like a totally obvious thing to do but they won't do it.


----------



## neroden

Palmetto said:


> Brightline has already mentioned the possibility of going up to JAX in the future. Going over to Tampa is a hope of some people there, but Brightline acknowledged they'll have to deal with CSX, and it would be more of a challenge than it would be to go up to JAX on their own tracks.


Why would they have to deal with CSX? They'll use the I-4 highway median which was reserved for high speed rail. Station at 22nd St. in Tampa.

Even if they want to go to Tampa Union Station, CSX couldn't care less about the last mile from Tampa Union Station and I'm sure they could get something running down Nuccio Parkway.


----------



## keelhauled

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though it would be trivial to improve the menu for the lounge fare a bit on trains where they are subbing for diners.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is remarkably unwilling to improve the lounge car menus on long-distance trains. This seems like a totally obvious thing to do but they won't do it.
Click to expand...

Didn't this thread start with the Star's cafe menu being upgraded to the NEC menu from the national one?


----------



## neroden

Yeah, and I'll give them a tiny amount of credit for grudgingly doing that *months* after removing the dining car service. There's no reason they couldn't do that right now on every single train in the system, though.


----------



## Bob Dylan

neroden said:


> Yeah, and I'll give them a tiny amount of credit for grudgingly doing that *months* after removing the dining car service. There's no reason they couldn't do that right now on every single train in the system, though.


Like!


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Contrary to popular opinion, lounge car food is still food. I went from Pennsylvania to California and back on lounge car food and I survived.


I think of lounge car food as more of a snack, than full breakfasts, lunches, and dinners.


----------



## tricia

niemi24s said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think an LD train _*without*_ a diner is a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. Looks like my feeble attempt at a bit of humor fell flat on its face.
Click to expand...

Maybe we need a "sarcasm alert" symbol or emoticon?


----------



## tricia

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contrary to popular opinion, lounge car food is still food. I went from Pennsylvania to California and back on lounge car food and I survived.
> 
> 
> 
> I think of lounge car food as more of a snack, than full breakfasts, lunches, and dinners.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but if it's the ONLY food available on a train where at least some passengers are traveling for 8 hours or more, that food needs to be suitable for real meals.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

tricia said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contrary to popular opinion, lounge car food is still food. I went from Pennsylvania to California and back on lounge car food and I survived.
> 
> 
> 
> I think of lounge car food as more of a snack, than full breakfasts, lunches, and dinners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, but if it's the ONLY food available on a train where at least some passengers are traveling for 8 hours or more, that food needs to be suitable for real meals.
Click to expand...

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/198/849/National-Cafe-Menu-0515.pdf

I think the pizza or cheeseburger is suitable for a real meal. You've never had pizza or a cheeseburger for lunch/dinner? I believe I had the turkey sandwich before. I don't usually eat spicy but I'm sure the chicken tenders also work. The breakfast sandwich is probably similar to quality of fast food breakfast sandwiches.

If you want those fancy Amtrak steaks or french toast, you either have to pay around 2-3X what you'd pay in the cafe per meal or pay much higher for a bedroom than the SS rooms w/o meals. I think passengers should have the option for cafe car meals or dining car meals if it is economically feasible for Amtrak to do so.


----------



## Train2104

What have I had out of the cafe car on my few trips...bagels, danishes, the burger, pizza, the wraps (on the NEC).

My impression of it is that though the food could use a quality improvement, it suffices for a trip short enough that one doesn't need to have the same meal twice (i.e. less than 24 hours).

With the upgraded/NEC cafe menu, a single repeat meal is tolerable, and let's face it, not everyone travels end to end. This pretty much covers every single train east of the Texas Eagle.

There's other things Amtrak can add to this menu that can be prepared just with a microwave...think quick oats, etc.


----------



## neroden

The national cafe menu is completely free of leafy green vegetables and nearly free of fruit, which is not OK for anyone trying to get a remotely healthy diet. The upgraded/NEC cafe menu has salads and so forth, which is a great help.

As Train2104 says, adding quick-oats would provide a better breakfast option; I was quite happy with the "instant" oatmeal on the .Downeaster. Eggs would still be highly desirable, but I could settle for hard-boiled.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

neroden said:


> The national cafe menu is completely free of leafy green vegetables and nearly free of fruit, which is not OK for anyone trying to get a remotely healthy diet.


Even Amtrak's full service dining car entrees are mostly frozen meat and processed grain based with very few freshly prepared fruits and vegetables in nutritionally relevant serving sizes. The upgraded lunch entree salads have improved the situation but the standard dinner salads remain extremely plain and bland in my view.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Oatmeal and hard boiled eggs, both are shelf ready products. Pre made salads and wraps are also available. As are cups of fresh slice fruits.

Open box place in cooler / cooler display. Not hard. Ok the oatmeal need water, and a microwave, but...

Deliver the stuff on a regular basis. Other than the fact this cargo is very time sensitive. Not a problem. Heck the biggest issue I had was the a computer failed and they were not letting anyone on the base without a background check. Nothing like getting calls about your ETA when stuck in line at the truck gate, and it has not moving since you have arrived.

You know the number of trains leaving each day, you know the number of passengers in advance. Only rocket science is the number to stock. Well that and to place the order 24 to 48 hours in advance.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The national cafe menu is completely free of leafy green vegetables and nearly free of fruit, which is not OK for anyone trying to get a remotely healthy diet.
> 
> 
> 
> Even Amtrak's full service dining car entrees are mostly frozen meat and processed grain based with very few freshly prepared fruits and vegetables in nutritionally relevant serving sizes. The upgraded lunch entree salads have improved the situation but the standard dinner salads remain extremely plain and bland in my view.
Click to expand...

Last meal I ate in the Amtrak dining car was a dinner salad *which a fellow diner gave to me because the onboard staff was refusing to give me a salad* and a sauceless steak (because they couldn't tell me what was in the sauce) most of which I abandoned. Still better than not getting any vegetables. (But I sure didn't leave a tip, and I complained to customer service.)


----------



## JoeBas

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you want those fancy Amtrak steaks or french toast,


Fancy??? :huh:

Something tells me that PAF is at that stage of his life where 66% of his meals consist of Ramen or Soup... it's been a long long time in my universe since AmFood is anywhere near what I'd call "Fancy".


----------



## rrdude

I think the last time I had "fancy" food on Amtrak, was while working the Southwest Chief, back in 1981. Amtrak had switched to "modified meal service" (i.e., junk) and the members of the crew would pool our money together, one of us would accompany the chef to the farmers market in LA, and help him carry provisions back to the train, to be prepared by the chef, but only for the crew. Some of the best meals I ever had I tell you....

We quickly had to change where we consumed said meals to the kitchen, as passengers would pass by the crew eating, and just about flip out.


----------



## jis

Maybe the sarcasm filter needs readjustment regarding the interpretation of the word "fancy"?


----------



## JoeBas

No, I don't think so. I think it's just an escalation in the race to the bottom.

(Fast forward 20 years)

Well, for those of you with sensitive palettes that can't handle some good o'le MURICAN dog food and sawdust...


----------



## City of Miami

BYO. It's that simple. For the reduction in price for a flat place to sleep I CHOSE to take the Star in March.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contrary to popular opinion, lounge car food is still food. I went from Pennsylvania to California and back on lounge car food and I survived.
> 
> 
> 
> I think of lounge car food as more of a snack, than full breakfasts, lunches, and dinners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, but if it's the ONLY food available on a train where at least some passengers are traveling for 8 hours or more, that food needs to be suitable for real meals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/198/849/National-Cafe-Menu-0515.pdf
> 
> I think the pizza or cheeseburger is suitable for a real meal. You've never had pizza or a cheeseburger for lunch/dinner? I believe I had the turkey sandwich before. I don't usually eat spicy but I'm sure the chicken tenders also work. The breakfast sandwich is probably similar to quality of fast food breakfast sandwiches.
> 
> If you want those fancy Amtrak steaks or french toast, you either have to pay around 2-3X what you'd pay in the cafe per meal or pay much higher for a bedroom than the SS rooms w/o meals. I think passengers should have the option for cafe car meals or dining car meals if it is economically feasible for Amtrak to do so.
Click to expand...

2-3 x what you pay in the Cafe?

Cafe Menu - Cheeseburger ($7.25) + Chips ($2.25) = $9.50

Dining Car Menu - Cheeseburger with Chips = $12.50 (includes optional $1 fee for cheese).

Cafe Menu - Breakfast Sandwich ($4,75) + Yogurt ($2.50) = $7.25

Dining Car Menu - Scrambled Eggs with Potatoes and Croissant = $7.50


----------



## neroden

My fiancee is allergic to both the "breakfast sandwich" and the yogurt. I'm allergic to the "breakfast sandwich". So, uh, for breakfast the dining car is self-evidently better...


----------



## cirdan

Palmetto said:


> Brightline has already mentioned the possibility of going up to JAX in the future. Going over to Tampa is a hope of some people there, but Brightline acknowledged they'll have to deal with CSX, and it would be more of a challenge than it would be to go up to JAX on their own tracks.


Unless maybe Florida HSR gets revived between Tampa and Orlando and AAF / Brightline gets to run trains in open access mode.

Sort of the inverse of what's happening at the Miami end with TriRail wanting to run on AAF's tracks


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> Nah, they're just raising the interest rates. You can always sell bonds if the interest rate is high enough.
> Construction is actually already *happening*, so the bonds are backfill financing.


But the present construction is on the easy bit.

Even if Brightline fails totally, very little of that money is actually totally lost.

FEC would be happy for the improved tracks.

The real estate stuff in Miami can find tenants even without the rail activity

Even the trains can maybe be sold on to Amtrak or some other agency, minimizing losses.

So maybe a lot of money is being spent but nobody is sticking their head too far out and a lot of what is being done can be repurposed.

Not so with the second phase going to Orlando. What use is a rail line into Orlando airport if you main business is running heavy freight trains?


----------



## NETrainfan

Just a detail- If a lunch salad is available on the Cafe Menu- why not have upgraded (better than dining salad) side salads also?

How "fresh" is the lunch salad? There must be time guidelines for the food in the Cafe.


----------



## jccpbc

I am anxious to see if this menu actually exist and has the items listed. Took the SS in Sept. w/o the diner and there was suppose to be better selections then but there was not. Taking several family members in June thinking the diner would be back but very frustrated they have permanently removed it. The notice from Amtrak says their decision was based on feedback they received. Based on what I have heard from passengers and train staff it was not a popular decision as a trial. I advised Amtrak after my Sept. experience and only booked the 2 bedrooms and 2 roomettes thinking (dumb on my part) the diner would be back. Changing to the SM is not an option where I board so here we go again without a diner and carry-on food.


----------



## JoeBas

jccpbc said:


> The notice from Amtrak says their decision was based on feedback they received.


From Congress, not passengers.


----------



## jccpbc

You're right JoeBas.


----------



## Train2104

JoeBas said:


> jccpbc said:
> 
> 
> 
> The notice from Amtrak says their decision was based on feedback they received.
> 
> 
> 
> From Congress, not passengers.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a good number of people who were pleased with the cheap rooms. They just don't post here.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

The roomettes on the Star have not gotten cheaper; instead, the roomettes on the Meteor have become more expensive. I traveled for several years on the Star at a rate posted now, with meals included. And "unbundling" the rooms from the dining cost? I just checked a date in April, and the Star was just over $300 and the Meteor just over $600. I don't believe I was eating $300 worth of food in the dining car.

I imagine that Amtrak has brilliantly and creatively spun its marketing jargon to justify what it had planned to do all along.


----------



## tommylicious

I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tommylicious said:


> I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.


why not? That seems silly. The Lake Shore Limited for example only serves Breakfast and Lunch the entire Eastbound trip, and that assumes you are going all the way to New York City. You would really alter your entire travel plan based on that Breakfast and Lunch?

Now a multi-day train such as the Zephyr, I would think about changing my travel plans if that train were to lose a diner.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

tommylicious said:


> I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.


While a Diner is always nice, if it is a train like the_* Late Shore*_, I could survive going through part of a day without any "proper" chow, especially if I knew NYC or Chicago was at the end of the line. But let's hope Amtrak doesn't get any more cute ideas about this.....


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

tommylicious said:


> I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.


Well, said. I agree.

For me, an overnight train is a real, real long ride (24 hours or more). For that length of time, I would certainly expect/need a least a couple of decent meals. That definitely excludes the food from the café as making a good meal.


----------



## PRR 60

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."


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## JoeBas

PRR 60 said:


> From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:
> 
> "Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."


You have, Mark. It's called "bottom".


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## greatcats

I'm with you, JoeBas!


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## niemi24s

Mystic River Dragon said:


> The roomettes on the Star have not gotten cheaper. . .


They most certainly have - but obviously not on the date(s) you checked or traveled:

• Prior to the start of the Stars no diner test, the low bucket Roomette fare was $239 between NYP and MIA - as was the Meteor

• During the first portion of the no diner test, the Star Roomette low bucket dropped to $149 while the Meteor remained at $239

• After the announcement of the no diner being permanent on the Star (and the rates for both trains were redone several days ago), the Star low bucket Roomette rose to $179 while the Meteor was unchanged at $239

Those were fares actually offered and were the lowest of the five offered - and not any low bucket fare that was in the books but never offered. AmSnag must be used to obtain and compare the various fares for _each and every day_ during a period of interest because the rates can and do fluctuate wildly and unpredictably. I've seen Roomette fares posted for 4 of the 5 buckets in a 4 day period and for all 5 buckets in a 7 day period. Only AmSnag will allow that sort of info to be gathered easily.

P.S.: During an eyeball-numbing search through my file of AnSnag queries, this ultimate example of fare fluctuations hove to view:


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## A Voice

PRR 60 said:


> "Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."




Only Amtrak would be surprised to discover that when you reduce the price of your goods or services, you sell more of them. Chrysler could sell more cars and McDonald's more hamburgers if they cut the price, just like Amtrak can sell more tickets (rooms) at a cheaper price. But you get what you pay for, and by reducing the quality of the product its now worth less - and maximizing revenue per unit is critical when you have a finite inventory such as the (fixed) capacity of two Viewliner sleepers. While you could add more cars to the train, we all know how few extra cars are even available (and if the now longer train needs a second locomotive, part of the cost savings disappears too).

Far better to make more on each room sold, with reasonable occupancy rates, when you have so few rooms to sell. To achieve that you need to make the service worth more - and that means more and upscale amenities, not the bottom feeder approach of Megabus and Motel 6 (both have their place, of course). The Wal-Mart model only works when you can make up the smaller profit margin on volume; Amtrak literally cannot do that.

If you only have 100 rooms to sell in your hotel, and can achieve high occupancy most of the time, would you do better to price them at Motel 6 or Hampton Inn prices (realizing a Hampton costs more to operate)?


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## WoodyinNYC

PRR 60 said:


> From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:
> 
> "Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."


I'm OK with it. Probably most passengers still have the _Meteor_ as an option. Meanwhile dropping the diner from the _Star _consist shows Congress how hard Amtrak is working to cut food & Beverage costs as it promised.

Unless there's an almost instantaneous revamping of the CAF order, Amtrak will soon have 5 Viewliner diners not for the _Star _that could be used elsewhere. Perhaps Amtrak could flip the _City of New Orleans _or the _Capitol Ltd_ to single level service and cascade the freed up Superliner equipment out west where it's needed. On perhaps restart a _Broadway Ltd._/extended _Pennsylvanian_.

Dropping diners from the_ Star_ doesn't have to mean one less LD train with diners, just that a different train will have diners added.


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## Train2104

A Voice said:


> Only Amtrak would be surprised to discover that when you reduce the price of your goods or services, you sell more of them. Chrysler could sell more cars and McDonald's more hamburgers if they cut the price, just like Amtrak can sell more tickets (rooms) at a cheaper price. But you get what you pay for, and by reducing the quality of the product its now worth less - and maximizing revenue per unit is critical when you have a finite inventory such as the (fixed) capacity of two Viewliner sleepers. While you could add more cars to the train, we all know how few extra cars are even available (and if the now longer train needs a second locomotive, part of the cost savings disappears too).
> 
> Far better to make more on each room sold, with reasonable occupancy rates, when you have so few rooms to sell. To achieve that you need to make the service worth more - and that means more and upscale amenities, not the bottom feeder approach of Megabus and Motel 6 (both have their place, of course). The Wal-Mart model only works when you can make up the smaller profit margin on volume; Amtrak literally cannot do that.
> 
> If you only have 100 rooms to sell in your hotel, and can achieve high occupancy most of the time, would you do better to price them at Motel 6 or Hampton Inn prices (realizing a Hampton costs more to operate)?


Isn't Amtrak already "making more on each room sold" here by lowering their costs more than they are lowering their prices?

Amtrak *can* partially make up the profit margin on volume by reselling the same room over and over, that's what they seem to be doing.


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## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:
> 
> "Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."


But occupancy rate is NOT up. I'm not sure what Murphy actually said, but I hope your interpolation was incorrect. What happened was that they opened up more roomettes for revenue sales by removing the staff from the rooms. The number of roomettes sold increased strictly in proportion to that. The occupancy rate seems to be the same.


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## xyzzy

There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.

The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.


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## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:
> 
> "Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."
> 
> 
> 
> But occupancy rate is NOT up. I'm not sure what Murphy actually said, but I hope your interpolation was incorrect. What happened was that they opened up more roomettes for revenue sales by removing the staff from the rooms. The number of roomettes sold increased strictly in proportion to that. The occupancy rate seems to be the same.
Click to expand...

Removing the dining car only freed up three rooms, or 12.5% of the total onboard. So capacity increased 12.5% and occupancy increased 21-25%. How is that strictly in proportion?

The rooms turn more often now with shorter segments being booked. It isn't unusual to see a room turn two or three times between NYP-MIA on the Star, often detraining and boarding at the same station. The OBS just LOVE when that happens... The Meteor tends to have longer trips in the sleepers, thus they don't turn as much but do command a higher fare both because of the diner and the longer distances.


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## neroden

I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.


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## PRR 60

neroden said:


> I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.


He was stating that the occupancy (essentially the load factor on a rooms sold basis) has increased by "21 to 25%." So, if it was 60% before, he is saying it is 81 to 85% now. I'n not saying it's true, but that is what the Amtrak head of long distance services said, so at the very least, that is the company position.


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## jis

One of my guesses was that with a lower Sleeper fare they will be able to attract many more short turn passengers into Sleepers, and that will lead to greater turnover and multiple use of the same room in a single run. Seems like that is happening. If they are able to find the sweet spot in ticket prices they should be able to hold together on the revenue side since short turn passengers pay a higher per mile fare. Having 5 short turn passengers occupy a room in a single journey is more lucrative than having a single long run passenger occupy the same room.

I saw this phenomenon take place in India over the last two years on the so called Duronto Express trains, which were originally introduced as long distance end to end passenger only trains with of course multiple non-commercial service stops en route. The revenue enhancement scheme that they put into effect this year was to introduce quotas for each service stop and thus have upto three sleepers on the train (each 44 passenger) have multiple use at higher per km rate, and the result indeed was higher revenue. Weird, almost counter intuitive but well it is what it is. The core determinant is how well you are able to fill those short turn berths through the journey, and in India the answer typically is 100%, demand so outstrips supply.


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## copperdeer

I think that's the point to take away from the Star - because it detours from the MIA-NYP route the Meteor takes by 2 hours both for Tampa and in NC & SC, by it's very nature it's geared towards shorter trips, just linking them all together on one line. It seems like the longest anyone would take the Star is 16 hours, between NYP & Denmark, SC. The Carolinian, particularly 79, often is late enough to bump the ride from NYP-CLT close to that same time without a dining car (although if you don't mind the times, the Crescent would be a better choice in that case). I frequently ride the Star between Raleigh and NY, sometimes without visiting the café car at all. Although I never would've considered it before, with the lower pricing, I'm tempted to see if a roomette is worth it now.


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## CSXfoamer1997

Nooo!!! Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star PERMANENTLY???!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?!

I think this is a bad idea. Amtrak needs to put the diner back on the Silver Star in my opinion.


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## ainamkartma

PRR 60 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.
> 
> 
> 
> He was stating that the occupancy (essentially the load factor on a rooms sold basis) has increased by "21 to 25%." So, if it was 60% before, he is saying it is 81 to 85% now. I'n not saying it's true, but that is what the Amtrak head of long distance services said, so at the very least, that is the company position.
Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa. Does your second sentence actually logically follow from your first? 21% of 60% is ~12%. So an increase of 21% "if it was 60% before", could be 72%, not necessarily 81 to 85%, as you conclude.

Of course, we don't have the underlying data, but only what Murphy said. But it seems reasonable to think he might want to spin the numbers in the most positive light for Amtrak.

And of course, it may not be a coincidence that the 12% increase (based on the number of rooms, not the occupancy) corresponds closely to the fraction of rooms freed up by ditching the dining staff.

Ainam "lies, damn lies, and statistics" kartma


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## Devil's Advocate

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Nooo!!! Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star PERMANENTLY???!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?!


Thank these guys (House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure)...







Especially these guys (former and current chairman respectively)...











And this guy too...






On the one hand it sucks to lose the diner. On the other hand Amtrak's hands were kind of tied on this and their diner chow has become such low nutrition high calorie junk that it's hard for me to truly miss it. Personally I think Amtrak should run a test with customer accessible refrigerators and microwaves so we can tend to our own meals. That would probably be enough for me to keep riding Amtrak. Too bad that doesn't appear to be part of the Mica/Shuster/Boardman solution.


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## tonys96

xyzzy said:


> There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.
> 
> The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.


29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH


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## CSXfoamer1997

tonys96 said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.
> 
> The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
Click to expand...

I agree! How can this get any worse?


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## Devil's Advocate

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.
> 
> The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree! How can this get any worse?
Click to expand...

Considering that Amtrak has promised to eliminate food and beverage losses over a period of five years (with three years remaining) there's a decent chance we've only begun to scratch the surface of how much worse it can get.


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## copperdeer

I think removing the dining car from where it's sufficiently needed, such as on the Crescent, is a drastic move that isn't likely. The Silver Star dining car didn't seem that popular while it still had it last year since the overwhelming majority of passengers are not going more than 10-12 hrs. I appreciate Amtrak trying to increase efficiency. I'll probably try out a roomette with a friend on the ride to NY now, where I wouldn't have considered it worth the higher price before.


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## A Voice

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.
> 
> The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree! How can this get any worse?
Click to expand...

...

I suspect the idea that things can't get any worse is sorely lacking in imagination...



Devil's Advocate said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.
> 
> The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree! How can this get any worse?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Considering that Amtrak has promised to eliminate food and beverage losses over a period of five years (with three years remaining) there's a decent chance we've only begun to scratch the surface of how much worse it can get.
Click to expand...

Of course, Amtrak also once agreed to eliminate all operating losses over a period of several years or else "go out of business". Most of us probably know how the "glidepath to self-sufficiency" turned out.

Point is, it was (and remains) impossible and quite unsurprisingly didn't happen; Congress continued to grant operating subsidies. The food & beverage mandate is likely to follow a similar path. The real danger is just how much damage can be done to Amtrak food service in the quest to meet an unachievable goal, with the _Silver Star_ diner merely one of the first victims. I don't expect the current lounge-car only food service to remain long-term, but how long until Amtrak realizes something more is required?


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## jis

I expect the F&B mandate to exit stage right with Mr. Boardman, and no one will be talking about it come October, just like all talk of "glidepath to self sufficiency" glided out the building with Mr. Warrington. The incoming new CEO will simply disown the whole thing and everyone will go back to drawing board to conjure up some other bureaucratic ****.


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## Bob Dylan

As usual I think jis nailed it!


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## greatcats

We know jis is one smart fellow. I hope, along with expert Mr Dylan, that jis is correct!


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## Devil's Advocate

A Voice said:


> Of course, Amtrak also once agreed to eliminate all operating losses over a period of several years or else "go out of business". Most of us probably know how the "glidepath to self-sufficiency" turned out. Point is, it was (and remains) impossible and quite unsurprisingly didn't happen; Congress continued to grant operating subsidies. The food & beverage mandate is likely to follow a similar path. The real danger is just how much damage can be done to Amtrak food service in the quest to meet an unachievable goal, with the _Silver Star_ diner merely one of the first victims.


Except that unlike achieving broad profitability the food and beverage mandate may in fact be possible to achieve if Amtrak is willing to continue reducing and removing dining services until the F&B budget breaks even. Conventional wisdom presumes that such changes will result in a net negative to Amtrak's bottom line, but it's hard to know that for a fact until it happens, and even if such a penalty does occur it doesn't necessarily invalidate the arbitrary F&B mandate such as it is.



A Voice said:


> I don't expect the current lounge-car only food service to remain long-term, but how long until Amtrak realizes something more is required?


Although I have no doubt Amtrak is well aware of AU they have thus far given us no indication that we're the sort of customers they're interested in keeping, let alone impressing. Maybe they think we'll stick with Amtrak regardless of the experience or maybe they simply don't care what we think. I don't take Amtrak's indifference personally but I do think it's important to realize that our views probably don't represent anything the Amtrak brass considers to be important.



jis said:


> I expect the F&B mandate to exit stage right with Mr. Boardman, and no one will be talking about it come October, just like all talk of "glidepath to self sufficiency" glided out the building with Mr. Warrington. The incoming new CEO will simply disown the whole thing and everyone will go back to drawing board to conjure up some other bureaucratic ****.


I realize that nothing ever really changes, at least according to Amtrak lore, and I can understand how folks might come to this conclusion after experiencing over forty years of seemingly uninterruptable life support. Unfortunately many former proponents and protectors of Amtrak from years past have retired or been squeezed out by radicalized ideology. Meanwhile anti-Amtrak politicians continue to grow in number and prominence. Or at least that's how it looks to me.


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## Manny T

As I understand it, the F&B mandate is embodied in a statute--it's legislation and can't just be jettisoned; it would have to be repealed by Congress. I suspect Cong. Mica and others will continue to talk about Amtrak's noncompliance with that mandate long after Mr. Boardman has departed.

As far as things getting worse is concerned, this writer believes that the entire Silver Star (and 2 other trains) may be following the dining car into utter oblivion: http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2016/02/02/3-amtrak-trains-in-jeopardy.aspx


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## jis

The glide path to self sufficiency was also in legislation for six years and then it was blithely ignored. Read some history!

As for Fred, yeah he writes stuff, some that makes sense and some that doesn't. Just because he says so doesn't mean a hill of beans.


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## Paulus

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Nooo!!! Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star PERMANENTLY???!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?!
> 
> I think this is a bad idea. Amtrak needs to put the diner back on the Silver Star in my opinion.


Amtrak's saving millions of dollars a year this way. From July 1st through December 31st, on a fully allocated basis, the Silver Star lost $5.3 million less than it did the previous year. Let's put that projected $10.6M change towards the black into example form:

It's equivalent to completely wiping the fully allocated loss of the Palmetto.

It's greater than the entire fully allocated cost of running the Vermonter.

It's equal to >150,000 train-miles on a fully allocated cost basis.

It's equal to >235,000 train-miles for a sleeper train on a marginal cost basis.

It's equal to >353,000 train-miles for a corridor train on a marginal cost basis.

So let me ask you: What would you cut to add that diner back again?


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## Devil's Advocate

Paulus said:


> So let me ask you: What would you cut to add that diner back again?


Why stop there when you can simply retire every coach, every sleeper, every lounge, every baggage car, every locomotive, every station, every maintenance facility, and every route mile? Then you could sell everything for scrap and hand the proceeds over to Congress so they could throw it at our next military misadventure. Maximum benefit for minimum cost. A few Americans would hate me but most would have no clue what was going on or why. Meanwhile the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, the House of Representatives, and most of the GOTP would _love_ me and save me a place at a well funded think tank so I could resume my work thinking up new ways to dismantle and privatize more of America's crumbling infrastructure.


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## amtrakpass

So let me ask you: What would you cut to add that diner back?"

It's an old cliche but of course the quickest way to cut costs is to cut the train then their is no cost at all. Just like having kids costs money but is a good thing, Passenger trains cost money but are a good thing which we all should agree on. Also human beings need to eat in a timely manner especially the young and old. So in my mind food service is part of the deal. Does that mean we should spend whatever it takes to provide great food? No, i disagree with the private car or Via rail canadian idea of catering to wealthly people. But we should all agree on trying to provide good food comparable to thousands of american restaurants in the diner tradition across the country. And why is the cafe stuck in a 7-11 type of offering when chains like Pret a Manger or Le Pan quotidien have shown that fast food can be good. Or more recently i discovered the Snap Kitchen chain which has healthly good tasting microwavable meals. Just saying, can we agree that all things should be done well and efficiently if you are to do them at all! To cost cut your way into providing bad service in the name of saving a few bucks is a way to put yourself out of business completely in the long run in my opinion.


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## jis

Actually just cutting a train also cuts the revenue that was partly paying for the fixed costs that do not go away by cutting the train and just reallocates them to other trains making them look worse. In the net, unless the trains had almost no riders and farebox recovery it turns out to be a net loss. No one has ever cut trains to prosperity in the annals of passenger railroad history. they have cut trains to eventually go out of business.

Basically, as far as accounting goes it is just as foolish to account for F&B separately as it is to account for toilet cleaning separately (and propose removing toilets to save money), yet the brainless dolt from Florida insists on one because it serves whatever political grand plan he has.


----------



## tonys96

I am still trying to remember any company that cut it's way to prosperity.....


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> No one has ever cut trains to prosperity in the annals of passenger railroad history. they have cut trains to eventually go out of business.


Good point.



jis said:


> Basically, as far as accounting goes it is just as foolish to account for F&B separately as it is to account for toilet cleaning separately (and propose removing toilets to save money), yet the brainless dolt from Florida insists on one because it serves whatever political grand plan he has.


Another good point. I wonder why Congress isn't asking why the toilet seat isn't directly producing as much revenue as, say, a coach seat?


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> Actually just cutting a train also cuts the revenue that was partly paying for the fixed costs that do not go away by cutting the train and just reallocates them to other trains making them look worse. In the net, unless the trains had almost no riders and farebox recovery it turns out to be a net loss. No one has ever cut trains to prosperity in the annals of passenger railroad history. they have cut trains to eventually go out of business.


True if and only if the train is making enough revenue to cover its marginal costs of operation.



> Basically, as far as accounting goes it is just as foolish to account for F&B separately as it is to account for toilet cleaning separately (and propose removing toilets to save money), yet the brainless dolt from Florida insists on one because it serves whatever political grand plan he has


Eh? F&B is an entirely legitimate grouping of line items to examine for accounting and potential efficiencies and, yes, elimination if it turns out to not be worth it.


----------



## neroden

Manny T said:


> As I understand it, the F&B mandate is embodied in a statute--it's legislation and can't just be jettisoned; it would have to be repealed by Congress.


The statute is almost as old as Amtrak itself. "Allocating" ticket revenue to the dining service, based on the (correct) idea that people are buying tickets which they wouldn't buy without the dining car, has been used to "comply" with the statute for **its entire history**.

Bluntly, dining service exists because otherwise trains have to make meal stops, and meal stops *suck*. The added revenue and reduced costs from not making a meal stop can be assigned to the dining cars and I think they'll look perfectly profitable. Makes more sense than most of Amtrak's accounting.


----------



## neroden

Paulus said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually just cutting a train also cuts the revenue that was partly paying for the fixed costs that do not go away by cutting the train and just reallocates them to other trains making them look worse. In the net, unless the trains had almost no riders and farebox recovery it turns out to be a net loss. No one has ever cut trains to prosperity in the annals of passenger railroad history. they have cut trains to eventually go out of business.
> 
> 
> 
> True if and only if the train is making enough revenue to cover its marginal costs of operation.
Click to expand...

Agreed. In 2008, it started to become really hard to get the marginal costs information out of Amtrak, due to Congressional assaults on sanity (demanding meaningless "fully allocated numbers"). However, from the data we have, as far as we can tell:

-- most of the "state-supported" trains do not make enough onboard + ticket revenue to cover marginal costs of operation, hence the need for state subsidies

-- the NEC, the Lynchburger, the Norfolk & Newport News trains, Auto Train, Star, Meteor, Palmetto, and LSL do make enough to cover marginal costs of operation

-- Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, and Crescent are always pretty close to covering marginal costs and are probably doing so in some years (numbers have too much margin of error to tell for any given year)

-- the Cardinal would certainly cover marginal costs if it were daily

-- the Capitol Limited would probably cover marginal costs if the Cap/Pennsy through cars were operating

If you're trying to examine trains which are consistently not covering marginal costs, and where the reason isn't something totally bloody obvious which should have been fixed five years ago, really the only trains you can look at are:

-- California Zephyr (I continue to suspect that Chicago-Denver performs much better financially than Glenwood Springs-Reno)

-- Southwest Chief

-- City of New Orleans (the only "long-distance division" train whose financial performance seems to have definitely gotten worse from 2012 to 2015)

-- Texas Eagle

-- Sunset Limited

With the exception of the CONO, these have all had very substantially improved financial performance over the last three years. It is not outside the realm of possibility that the SWC could cover its marginal costs in 2016, i

If the financial improvements continued at the same rate (which they probably won't),

-- the SWC could cover its marginal costs in 2016

-- the CZ could cover its marginal costs by 2018

-- the SL and TE could cover their marginal costs by 2019

Railroads really aren't a marginal-cost business. Like telecoms they're a high-capital-cost, high-fixed-cost, low-marginal-cost business. That's why they thrive on high population density.


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## xyzzy

tonys96 said:


> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH


Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.


----------



## tonys96

xyzzy said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
Click to expand...

There are pax who travel end to end. Just because there is not a huge amount of them is no reason to make them go 29+ hours without a diner. These folks matter, too, don't they?


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, as far as accounting goes it is just as foolish to account for F&B separately as it is to account for toilet cleaning separately (and propose removing toilets to save money), yet the brainless dolt from Florida insists on one because it serves whatever political grand plan he has
> 
> 
> 
> Eh? F&B is an entirely legitimate grouping of line items to examine for accounting and potential efficiencies and, yes, elimination if it turns out to not be worth it.
Click to expand...

Managing costs is one thing. Demanding that it become a self standing profit center is a different thing. That is what is being demanded and that is unreasonable.


----------



## JoeBas

xyzzy said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
Click to expand...

And those of us who DO (or close enough, NOL-PHI regularly) will not, *not, **NOT* do so without real food. So you might as well break the nat'l network and truncate the train in ATL.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

JoeBas said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those of us who DO (or close enough, NOL-PHI regularly) will not, *not, NOT* do so without real food. So you might as well break the nat'l network and truncate the train in ATL.
Click to expand...

Sure you will. What other choice do you have? Is there some other train you're going to take? Oh wait, there is none.

I'm not saying removing the diner isn't wrong but the threat of a boycott isn't really going to work if there isn't any other similar choice available.


----------



## greatcats

I of course am in the camp of being displeased with this dining car situation. However, under certain circumstances, I might be agreeable to taking Megabus or Greyhound say from Chicago to New York. No dining cars of course; either bring your own food or make do with McD's or convenience stores during that trip. That might be OK, but it is a different format of transportation. About 5 years ago I took Megabus Chicago to Cincinnatti, which was a daylight run, and I enjoyed the trip


----------



## tonys96

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those of us who DO (or close enough, NOL-PHI regularly) will not, *not, NOT* do so without real food. So you might as well break the nat'l network and truncate the train in ATL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure you will. What other choice do you have? Is there some other train you're going to take? Oh wait, there is none.
> 
> I'm not saying removing the diner isn't wrong but the threat of a boycott isn't really going to work if there isn't any other similar choice available.
Click to expand...

1. Not go

2. Fly


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

tonys96 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those of us who DO (or close enough, NOL-PHI regularly) will not, *not, NOT* do so without real food. So you might as well break the nat'l network and truncate the train in ATL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure you will. What other choice do you have? Is there some other train you're going to take? Oh wait, there is none.
> 
> I'm not saying removing the diner isn't wrong but the threat of a boycott isn't really going to work if there isn't any other similar choice available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1. Not go
> 
> 2. Fly
Click to expand...

What if you have to go and don't want to and/or are too afraid to fly (which I am guessing is the case for at least some if not many LD train passengers including myself)? Buses but they're much less comfortable and if bad food is the reason you're not going to take train why would the bus be any more appealing?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Sure you will. What other choice do you have? Is there some other train you're going to take? Oh wait, there is none.
> 
> I'm not saying removing the diner isn't wrong but the threat of a boycott isn't really going to work if there isn't any other similar choice available.


If Amtrak degrades itself down into that point, there are many, many other choices available for transportation.

Hay, no food? I might as well take a bus and at least the bus stops where I can get some food periodically.


----------



## neroden

Driving is always an option. Heck, at some pricing point you can hire someone to drive you.


----------



## JoeBas

tonys96 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but not many people ride end-to-end. Even Southern sometimes dropped the diner on the south end of the run.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those of us who DO (or close enough, NOL-PHI regularly) will not, *not, NOT* do so without real food. So you might as well break the nat'l network and truncate the train in ATL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure you will. What other choice do you have? Is there some other train you're going to take? Oh wait, there is none.
> 
> I'm not saying removing the diner isn't wrong but the threat of a boycott isn't really going to work if there isn't any other similar choice available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1. Not go
> 
> 2. Fly
Click to expand...

Exactly. My family and I typically make 2 round trips per year HOS-PHI to visit family. This is a non starter for us without a diner.


----------



## jis

What or where is PHI? Did you mean PHL = Philadelphia?

I could not find an Amtrak code PHI, and the IATA code PHI is for a little place in Brazil AFAICT.


----------



## NETrainfan

We will always choose the train over driving, or a bus, or a plane no matter what the food offerings on the train.

Although it is best to have a diner on an LD train- we would be ok with a Cafe car with an enhanced menu. (Even the new enhanced menu can be enhanced IMO.)

For us the train is relaxing and comfortable.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

NETrainfan said:


> We will *always* choose the train over driving, or a bus, or a plane *no matter what* the food offerings on the train.


In other words it's virtually impossible to disappoint you enough to put your future business at risk. Which is fine in and of itself, I mean if you have no standards then why worry about it, but isn't broadcasting your perpetual indifference a bit like playing poker with your cards facing the other players? Kind of like daring Amtrak to do their worst. I guess I just don't understand what you expect to gain by proclaiming your perpetual indifference.


----------



## NETrainfan

Oh- DA- You read things into the post. I did not mean the quality of food- I meant

whether there is a diner or cafe or nothing except water- we will ride the train.

That is my opinion and it is only my opinion and you should not make sweeping judgments

about other people's standards. Are your standards the norm?

We expect Amtrak to get us safely from one place to another, to be on time, to have clean

trains with clean bathrooms, and to offer polite and responsible service. Food is an extra for us.

We enjoy good food- we are cooks; we grow our own vegetables. But we do not expect

gourmet meals on a train. The "dining trains" can do that.

Speaking of standards- we do expect polite exchanges on forums- that is a good standard.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

There are plenty of different ways to travel approximately 1000 miles. But there has to be one or more reasons that one would take the train over flying, taking the bus, or driving.

In my case, I am kind of afraid of and/or dislike flying, I don't really want to drive that long a distance, and buses are just uncomfortable (and I have done overnight buses too). So with all four options available for a trip of around 1000 miles the train is by far my preferred version of transportation. I can complain all I want about the lack of a direct train from PHL to CHI but I'm not about to say I'm not taking the train and subject myself to one of the other three more undesirable options because of it. Something would drastically have to change for me to fly, drive, or take the bus to Chicago instead of taking the train.

If you're going to say "well I can always fly", why aren't you flying now then? You can get somewhere in 2-3 hrs and you don't have a problem with doing so but instead you choose to take the 15-16 hrs option? Why? You can give me reasons but I would think you're crazy if you tell me the #1 reason (or one of the top five) you would rather take the train instead of fly are those wonderful Amtrak steaks. The scenery? Not going to go away because there's no diner car. The cost? Without the diner car, the cost to take the train in general will be cheaper. I can make similar arguments if you're going to say "well I can always drive" or "well I can always take the bus". Is the reason you're not now the Amtrak steaks?

If I were in charge of Amtrak and you came to my office and said to be give me a diner car or I'll fly/drive/take a bus instead, I would laugh in your face. I know the one thing you won't do and that is take some other train. I'm not saying it isn't wrong that Amtrak wants to remove diner cars and if you would rather take the SM over the SS because of the diner car I get it. But I highly doubt any of you will flat out change your mode of transportation because you can't get the Amtrak steaks anymore and the few of you who actually do Amtrak can find others willing to take your place.

You can complain, you can campaign, but no in Amtrak is holding their breath about you boycotting.


----------



## JoeBas

"What or where is PHI? Did you mean PHL = Philadelphia?"

Yes, Philadelphia

"There are plenty of different ways to travel approximately 1000 miles. But there has to be one or more reasons that one would take the train over flying, taking the bus, or driving.

In my case, I am kind of afraid of and/or dislike flying, I don't really want to drive that long a distance, and buses are just uncomfortable (and I have done overnight buses too). So with all four options available for a trip of around 1000 miles the train is by far my preferred version of transportation. I can complain all I want about the lack of a direct train from PHL to CHI but I'm not about to say I'm not taking the train and subject myself to one of the other three more undesirable options because of it. Something would drastically have to change for me to fly, drive, or take the bus to Chicago instead of taking the train."
That's YOUR story. Youth tends to believe that their story is everyone's story. It's not.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you're going to say "well I can always fly", why aren't you flying now then? You can get somewhere in 2-3 hrs and you don't have a problem with doing so but instead you choose to take the 15-16 hrs option? Why? You can give me reasons but I would think you're crazy if you tell me the #1 reason (or one of the top five) you would rather take the train instead of fly are those wonderful Amtrak steaks. The scenery? Not going to go away because there's no diner car. The cost? Without the diner car, the cost to take the train in general will be cheaper. I can make similar arguments if you're going to say "well I can always drive" or "well I can always take the bus". Is the reason you're not now the Amtrak steaks?


We are now, actually, at least partially. Last year's second trip we flew one way and took the train the other, due to the decreasing value we see in taking the train. The value in taking the train for us is that it's a more relaxing, *CIVILIZED* way to travel. When we started taking Amtrak, we told people that when we flew somewhere, we felt our trip really didn't start until we got there; when we took the train, we felt like it started when we stepped on board. And the time away to decompress again in a *CIVILIZED* environment had a value to us in excess of the time cost difference in taking that mode.

However, this calculus is steadily changing, as train travel becomes increasingly more *UNCIVILIZED* and Amtrak races to become more and more like the airlines, only at twice the cost and several times the time investment, and the airport environment becomes slightly (SLIGHTLY) better with the advent of Pre-Check.

So in a way, yes, the Steaks (as you so derisively put it, in your arrogance), or DECENT FOOD (not GOURMET, but REAL NON 7-11 FOOD), are a big part of what makes the train CIVILIZED. So was the cranberry juice for drinking and mixing, which have been axed. So was the morning paper, which has been axed. So was the all-day coffee, which has been axed. And it continues to degenerate.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If I were in charge of Amtrak and you came to my office and said to be give me a diner car or I'll fly/drive/take a bus instead, I would laugh in your face. I know the one thing you won't do and that is take some other train. I'm not saying it isn't wrong that Amtrak wants to remove diner cars and if you would rather take the SM over the SS because of the diner car I get it. But I highly doubt any of you will flat out change your mode of transportation because you can't get the Amtrak steaks anymore and the few of you who actually do Amtrak can find others willing to take your place.
> 
> You can complain, you can campaign, but no in Amtrak is holding their breath about you boycotting.


Well, thank God for everyone, you're nowhere near being old, educated or bright enough to worry about you being in charge of Amtrak anytime soon then. Because a business whose CEO has such contempt for its paying clients that they actually laugh in their face, leads a company that is doomed to the trash heap of history. You seem to be locked into the fact that Amtrak has a monopoly on train travel, and can just say "It's my way or the highway", without any realization that for the VAST MAJORITY of people, that kind of attitude will lead directly to a response of "Okay, the highway it is then... literally. Enjoy your bankrupcy!"


----------



## City of Miami

JoeBas said:


> Enjoy your bankrupcy!"


Well, the calculus, as you put it Joe, is that Amtrak is already bankrupt and has never been otherwise afaik. Further, the unpleasant calculus is that the losses diminish along with the passenger load. Ugh!

Congress, not Amtrak, not Boardman, singled out food and beverage losses as a sore point; she who writes the checks calls the tunes. If you don't like what Amtrak is being forced to do COMPLAIN TO YOUR CONGRESS PERSON. To continue the calculus analogy, what happens with Amtrak is not necessarily a function of ineptitude, poor management et cetera ad nauseam, but is a direct result of Congressional dictate.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I would think there has to be some kind of good avenue to put Amtrak back into PRIVATE hands, likely the Host Railroads themselves by offering them some kind of incentives to form a "Big 5" (or however many end up being involved) Pool to run it and run it properly. I don't know about CSX or NS, but I just don't see BNSF or Union Pacific wanting their share of passenger service to be a second rate product. Just take a look at the beautiful UP Heritage Fleet.


----------



## Bob Dylan

But then there is the SP and other Class I "Run em off" Playbook that was followed in tbe 60s and early 70s. (pleasant exceptions being Santa Fe and Southern and a couple of others)

Basically Class Is don't want anything to do with LD Passenger Trains!


----------



## jis

Evidence from elsewhere in the world suggests that when you try to transfer passenger service to private hands you have to be ready to increase subsidies by a factor of 1.5 to 2.5 depending on how thoroughly you wish to do the transfer. There is no free lunch and private sector is not financially more efficient for maintaining the same service or better all around. There is a reason that there have not been any serious takers for various attempts to entice the freight railroads into passenger service. They may be many things but they are not idiots.


----------



## JoeBas

City of Miami said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy your bankrupcy!"
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the calculus, as you put it Joe, is that Amtrak is already bankrupt and has never been otherwise afaik.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess "extinguishment" is a better word, as you continue to run off supporters with an attitude as arrogant as the one espoused by the poster I was quoting.


----------



## Ryan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I would think there has to be some kind of good avenue to put Amtrak back into PRIVATE hands, likely the Host Railroads themselves by offering them some kind of incentives to form a "Big 5" (or however many end up being involved) Pool to run it and run it properly.


I'm not sure how that would be meaningful than the Amtrak we have today.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I would think there has to be some kind of good avenue to put Amtrak back into PRIVATE hands, likely the Host Railroads themselves by offering them some kind of incentives to form a "Big 5" (or however many end up being involved) Pool to run it and run it properly. I don't know about CSX or NS, but I just don't see BNSF or Union Pacific wanting their share of passenger service to be a second rate product. Just take a look at the beautiful UP Heritage Fleet.





jis said:


> Evidence from elsewhere in the world suggests that when you try to transfer passenger service to private hands you have to be ready to increase subsidies by a factor of 1.5 to 2.5 depending on how thoroughly you wish to do the transfer. There is no free lunch and private sector is not financially more efficient for maintaining the same service or better all around. There is a reason that there have not been any serious takers for various attempts to entice the freight railroads into passenger service. They may be many things but they are not idiots.


I think that in a dream world we'd have multiple companies offering similar intercity rail services and we'd have choices and competition to lead to a better overall product. I think those of you old enough to remember the pre-Amtrak days (I'm not in that category) will probably tell you rail service was better pre-Amtrak than post-Amtrak. And when a private company is involved, you would think they care more about success than the federal government cares about Amtrak. Then who does and does not get rail service will be dependent on ridership and revenue instead of being based on politics.

Of course as jjs said rail travel in 2016 isn't as profitable as it was before the days of the airplane. But it appears that rail travel is more popular today than it was back in the 1970's and at least a few trains in the Amtrak system are going 100+ miles and there are at least some proposals of other high speed rail service (Xpress West, Texas, and Brightline among others). Typical LD service today is when I last checked around 50 mph. Right now the LSL travels 959 miles in about 19 hours. If Amtrak can travel the same route at even 70 mph, that cuts the time to under 14 hours and it would be hard for any driver or bus to average 70 mph on the highways. Then demand for overnight trains is going to increase rapidly. If the technology evolves and right of ways can be negotiated, maybe in 10-20 years passenger rail will be profitable enough for companies to want to get involved.

Getting back to the Silver Star dining car removed, Amtrak did "experiment" with the dining car removed for about half a year now. You can debate the validity of the financial numbers Amtrak publishes but Amtrak seems to find the experiment at least somewhat successful or not detrimental enough to say this is a bad idea. If so many passengers really thought that removal of the diner car was a deal breaker and ridership and revenue plummeted during that time, chances are they wouldn't have extended this further. Maybe there are people who really aren't big on the food and can deal with the cafe car and I can say I might try to get a sleeper instead of just a coach seat if the price was more reasonable. So Amtrak at least makes more money off me in that scenario.


----------



## Ryan

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Of course as jjs said rail travel in 2016 isn't as profitable as it was before the days of the airplane.


Before and after the airplane, the profit was negative.


----------



## Carolina Special

Pre Amtrak, I believe a lot of passenger trains used to carry the mail. The loss of that business in the late 1960s essentially doomed many of the existing passenger trains, including the one that had my forum name.

That business won't be coming back, but I think you'd need some similar revenue enhancement added to basic passenger service to make the major rail carriers willing to run passenger trains again.


----------



## Palmetto

Yes, the death-knell for the American passenger train seems to have been the loss of "head-end" revenue. Off topic, but does anyone remember the REA cars?


----------



## jis

Yes I do.


----------



## neroden

Those few who remember the passenger trains of the 1930s through the early 1950s no doubt remember them as being better than Amtrak.

Those who only remember the passenger trains of the late 1960s certainly think Amtrak was a LOT better -- the late-period Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Erie Lackawanna, New Haven, B&M stories I've read -- horrorshows. Under Alfred Perlman, NYC often didn't even have working lights or heat in the cars, apparently.

Having looked into it pretty deeply, the point at which passenger trains started to lose money was the federal funding of free roads, combined with widespread cheap automobile sales running on cheap gasoline, combined with free parking on citiy streets, in the 1920s. Passenger trains were often profitable right through the 1910s. They couldn't compete financially with the cheap autos, cheap gas, and government-provided free roads of the 1920s. The autos also blocked the tracks of the streetcars, so this is when the first big round of streetcar and interurban company bankruptcies happened. The train lines with their own right-of-way held up better, got some boosts during the 1930s (when more people couldn't afford cars, and parking meters first appeared), and got a big boost during WWII when gasoline was rationed... but the financial death knell was the free Interstates of the 1950s.

I'm not sure trains ever really competed with airplanes. Commercial airplanes were an expensive luxury for the rich from their introduction until, frankly, deregulation in the 1980s. It was the subsidies to passenger cars which caused passenger trains to become unprofitable.


----------



## jis

I agree with that assessment. Frankly I don't think passenger trains really compete with airplanes even today except for a few short/medium length corridors. For example, I don't think the cut throat competition on the NEC - Florida market that the airlines (JetBlue, American, United, Delta, Southwest and a few others) are involved in, really feels any effect of the existence of Amtrak in that market.


----------



## Palmland

The late 60's definitely did see a great decline in the quality of passenger service in the northeast. But, with a few exceptions (SP comes to mind) the railroads elsewhere continued to operate LD trains that were far better than Amtrak in terms of quality and variety of equipment, professionalism of employees, and certainly in quality of food. Sure, their numbers were greatly reduced and they had fewer sleepers, but those that remained continued to show a great deal of corporate pride. Especially notable: SCL, ATSF, Chessie, IC, and UP. I rode 'em all. The only thing missing: Amtrak's showers!


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## jis

I rode around some on trains when I was in the US for a year back in '65/'66. The sense I got was that in the northeast things had pretty much gone to hell in a handbasket already. The Senator that I rode basically had no working A/C in the middle of sweltering summer day. The only notional A/C was provided by open dutch doors and open vestibule doors.There were a few LD trains that were operated with much elan, but no one was convinced that it would last another ten years. the general feeling I got was, ride 'em while you can. in ten years we will pretty much not have any passenger train service worth talking about other than some remaining commuters systems. So while there were some that were really good, there did not seem to be any sens of hope that they will remain so for any significant amount of time. In short, the writing on the wall was pretty much being read by all, as Pennsylvania Station in new York was being dismantled.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Those few who remember the passenger trains of the 1930s through the early 1950s no doubt remember them as being better than Amtrak.
> 
> Those who only remember the passenger trains of the late 1960s certainly think Amtrak was a LOT better -- the late-period Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Erie Lackawanna, New Haven, B&M stories I've read -- horrorshows. Under Alfred Perlman, NYC often didn't even have working lights or heat in the cars, apparently.
> 
> Having looked into it pretty deeply, the point at which passenger trains started to lose money was the federal funding of free roads, combined with widespread cheap automobile sales running on cheap gasoline, combined with free parking on citiy streets, in the 1920s. Passenger trains were often profitable right through the 1910s. They couldn't compete financially with the cheap autos, cheap gas, and government-provided free roads of the 1920s. The autos also blocked the tracks of the streetcars, so this is when the first big round of streetcar and interurban company bankruptcies happened. The train lines with their own right-of-way held up better, got some boosts during the 1930s (when more people couldn't afford cars, and parking meters first appeared), and got a big boost during WWII when gasoline was rationed... but the financial death knell was the free Interstates of the 1950s.
> 
> I'm not sure trains ever really competed with airplanes. Commercial airplanes were an expensive luxury for the rich from their introduction until, frankly, deregulation in the 1980s. It was the subsidies to passenger cars which caused passenger trains to become unprofitable.


I agree with most of that assessment, but I'd point out that from what I can tell, pre-Amtrak railfares were often on par with what we'd call "high bucket", so the "luxury disparity" wasn't as great as one might make it out to be.

Trains did compete with planes for some time in many cases, I believe: I think folks forget that while there were some non-stops, a _lot_ of flights were "locals" where you'd have to throw an hour or two onto the schedule because the plane would be making stops along the way. Look up an Official Guide from the 1950s and you'll see what I mean. Moreover, until jet airliners became a thing, there were going to be plenty of cases where a well-run first or second tier train beat the heck out of spending half a day in a DC-3. Even taking the specs of a DC-6, 311-315 MPH cruising speed is going to get you across the country, yes, but it's going to be somewhere in the range of 9-12 hours on the timetable (depending on whether you make a technical stop or any intermediate passenger stops). Even NYC-CHI is going to run you at _least_ three hours in the air for a direct flight while I think we're all a bit spoiled thinking about that being able to be knocked down to a quick 90-minute trip.

Trains might not beat out planes New York-Los Angeles, but when compared to a multi-stop flight New York-Chicago, the overnight options of the _Broadway _and _Twentieth Century _did seem to hold their own for quite a while (the Broadway, in particular, was still turning a profit into the mid-60s as an all-Pullman IIRC...I strongly suspect that train's stranglehold on Philly after the B&O cut service north of Baltimore did wonders for propping it up).


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

(Borrowing a pic link from another thread here)

This is how Congress envisions the Dining cars, during peak seating.


----------



## neroden

Airline regulation in the US is a whole 'nother story and is actually really interesting. Basically each airline had a "franchised" set of routes, with very minimal competition allowed on any given route (maybe two carriers). Then the prices were fixed (!!) so price competition wasn't possible either. The airlines proceeded to compete based on service quality.

And I have to correct myself, deregulation was under Carter in the late 1970s. The immediate result was that quality dropped massively, and then most of the airlines went bankrupt. There were then some startups and spinoffs. Following bailouts, quality dropped again and there were rounds of mergers, and then more bankruptcies. Then the nickel-and-diming started, more bankruptcies, and then 9/11 and more bankruptcies and another bailout.... For some reason investors seemed endlessly willing to throw money into the pit of the airline industry, despite Warren Buffett's famous line about it being a money-loser for its entire history.

But anyway, pre-1970s, the airline model was high prices, oligopoly, showoff travel for the rich or dramatic. Trains may have been more practical, but the point is that airlines weren't really practical at all: except for international flights (where they completely displaced the steamships), airline travel was *junkets*, a lifestyle choice or an business expense for a business in a big hurry -- not a choice of practicality. In the 1950s the typical holiday for the middle-class person was NOT by airplane; airplanes were for the "jet set".


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

There was a entirely different set of social standards back in the 1950's. Its true, for those fortunate enough to travel by air, they wore their "Sunday best" on-board the plane. However, at that same time, people also wore they "Sunday best" even for baseball. Its difficult to understand, but if you look at pictures of the spectators at baseball games back then, the guys are wearing button shirts with ties, and many with a sports jacket on too. Today, its difficult to believe that anyone would sit in the afternoon summer sun, wearing a shirt and tie, to watch a baseball game.


----------



## jis

As I recall even in 1965 the trains were not necessarily that affordable, though definitely more affordable than planes, specially the ones that we mostly talk about these days, the premium trains. I recall that on more than one occasion, purely due to financial reasons, we, who were not exactly floating in cash, chose to take Greyhound rather than the train. The additional fact that the train schedules were atrocious for the one or two trains available per day didn't help either. Trying to get from Boston to Niagara Falls was an outright chore by train and easy by Greyhound, for example.

Indeed we flew domestically only on conjunction tickets with international legs and never a standalone O/D within the US.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As usual jis' post is spot on!

Anyone who ever flew on a DC-3 Puddle jumper flight has never forgotten that it wasn't exactly the height of luxury, and as jis said, it wasn't a bargain!

All things considered Passenger Trains were still a much more comfortable way to travel although the "Run 'em off" campaigns being conducted by SP and other Class Is made for less than pleasant memories!

I too rode many miles on the Dog and Trailways, including a Cross Country trip from San Diego to New London when transfered by the Navy in 1962.

This helped create my life long dislike of long bus trips! I'd rather fly than take a bus!


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.


And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.


----------



## greatcats

To answer your question CSX, lousy idea. From a management view it may make some sense. Otherwise, terrible along with other lame brained ideas having to do with the food service.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.
Click to expand...

Alright.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

greatcats said:


> To answer your question CSX, lousy idea. From a management view it may make some sense. Otherwise, terrible along with other lame brained ideas having to do with the food service.


I can agree. It may cut down costs in sleeping cars... BUT at the same time, that would also mean some meals that passengers liked from the diner is no longer available. I'm definitely gonna miss the pancakes on the Silver Star, but also I did hate that the biscuits and croissants were wheat instead of standard white.


----------



## Seaboard92

When we are looking at trains the SS and SM are two entirely different trains. The SS has more intermediate and shorts then the SM has. Columbia, SC can normally board forty plus people a night on one of the two trains. And the intra Florida market is also a lot of shorts. So diners don't do as well in short hail trains. Why would I spend ten dollars for Amchow burger when I get off in three hours and can go to Red Robin and pay roughly the same for a higher quality product.

The SM is more of a long city pair train with a lot of NEC-FL traffic. Which are more likely to use the diner because they don't have the option of better food. I miss the dining car just as much as everyone. It's quintessential railroad if you ask me. But I can see the justification somewhat.


----------



## jis

The one enhancement in the SS I would like to see is to upgrade the Cafe to sell Cardinal style precooked meals across the counter Buffet style. If they can do that without adding to costs too much that would I think be a win win.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jis said:


> The on enhancement in the SS I would like to see is to upgrade the Cafe to sell Cardinal style precooked meals across the counter Buffet style. If they can do that without adding to costs too much that would I think be a win win.


That should be an easy solution considering Walmart (or your favorite grocery) has 2-3 whole aisles of nothing but frozen "slam in the microwave-stir once halfway through" meals, many which are pretty good, even without any additional doctoring. Though I usually find the portions to be too small, but that is another whole issue


----------



## greatcats

jis- I like your idea. Buffet style dinner service with lower sleeper fares makes some sense. But that present snack bar format does not cut it. If I were to ride that train, I would bring my own food and only use the snack bar as a supplement, which is what I did on the DB train Basel to Copenhagen, now gone.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair here, this thread is clearly marked as being for a discussion of the new menu.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.
Click to expand...

Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.

On to the topic that he asked....


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.
> 
> On to the topic that he asked....
Click to expand...

Nope. I don't get to do such things. I just get to observe, suggest, report and speculate on the obvious consequences.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.
> 
> On to the topic that he asked....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. I don't get to do such things. I just get to observe, suggest, report and speculate on the obvious consequences.
Click to expand...

Ha! Fair enough!  good observations sir! *tips hat*


----------



## pennyk

Moderator Note: the title of the thread was edited to include "no diner." We* try *to avoid multiple threads on the same topic.


----------



## benale

From New York to Petersburg both The Star and The Meteor make the same stops. After Petersburg the trains serve different towns until Savannah. After Jacksonville until West Palm Beach both trains serve different towns. I would imagine Amtrak's way of thinking vs that both trains go from New York to Miami,so eliminating a diner one one of the trains would make sense. If both trains served the same stops on the entire route, I would agree. For example, if you are going to Charleston SC or a Florida location not served on The Meteor, and you want a full service diner you are out of luck.

A diner is one of the pleasures of long distance train travel. Without it,roomette fares(for example)should be no more than $150 for the full route and

priced accordingly for shorter lengths.


----------



## jis

Actually the SS and SM routes diverge after Kissimmee, not after Jacksonville. and they rejoin at Winter Haven, after SS's detour through Tampa, not West Palm Beach. So they share the same route from Jacksonville to Kissimmee and from Winter Haven to Miami.

I have no idea where or how you come up with the arbitrary $150 number though.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The part I don't understand is how forcing everyone to participate in old meandering threads that eventually grow to humongous sizes helps new forum members and guests. The idea that everyone is expected to read ten or twenty or fifty pages of random speculation and commentary just to find a tiny bit of relevant information they actually want seems silly to me. Did anyone ever think through this "one thread to rule them all" mandate? Is it really so bad that we might have two or three threads discussing similar topics at once? No other forum I've participated in has been this black and white about closing anything that might possibly have the potential to perhaps be confused with a similar thread from five or six months ago.


----------



## benale

Correct, Jis. Guess I haven't looked at the timetables in quite awhile, They do share more stops than I thought. The stop after Petersburg, Rocky Mount is where the routes differ. I forgot they shared the same route through Kissimmee. Actually low bucket in a roomette is $179 the entire length. From DC to Jacksonville it drops to $152. Thought it would be a little lower than that.


----------



## niemi24s

Heading Southward, the routes of the Star and Meteor actually diverge at Selma NC and join up about ½ mile from the station in Savannah. This site... http://asm.transitdocs.com/ ...make it a lot easier to see stuff like that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Heading Southward, the routes of the Star and Meteor actually diverge at Selma NC and join up about ½ mile from the station in Savannah. This site... http://asm.transitdocs.com/ ...make it a lot easier to see stuff like that.


nit-picking much?


----------



## niemi24s

Here's an interesting tidbit regarding yield management: The Roomette upcharge for travel this afternoon on the Star from WAS to JAX is $496 and over the entire route is $584. Yet $584 is the high bucket upcharge for the Meteor over its entire route! Does that mean there's a diner on the Star this afternoon or is Amtrack simply charging whatever they think the traffic will bear - regardless of the previously established buckets?

FWIW, the high bucket upcharge for a Roomette on the Star between NYP and MIA was $298 about three weeks ago. Now they want $584? Don't mean to nit-pick, but HOLY COW!


----------



## Bob Dylan

niemi24s said:


> Here's an interesting tidbit regarding yield management: The Roomette upcharge for travel this afternoon on the Star from WAS to JAX is $496 and over the entire route is $584. And $584 is the high bucket upcharge for the Meteor over its entire route! Does that mean there's a diner on the Star this afternoon or is Amtrack simply charging whatever they think the traffic will bear - regardless of the previously established buckets?


It's Winter in Yankee Land and the suckers, er Snowbirds, will pay Amtrak whatever they ask to head to sunny Florida!
Of course most won't know there is No Diner on the Starvation so those that book the Meteor will have a better deal!

Amtrak apologists have chastised those of us that have called this borderline dishonest, so lets just say its shady or slick Marketing. YMMV


----------



## Ryan

Yep. Super Top Sekrit.




Niemi24s, I would think with your extensive knowledge, you'd know what the regular buckets are for each train. Have they changed?


----------



## niemi24s

Ryan said:


> Niemi24s, I would think with your extensive knowledge, you'd know what the regular buckets are for each train. Have they changed?


Hi Ryan. Last time I did a bucket check on the Star and Meteor was on 29 Jan 2016. Here's what I found a scant 2½ weeks ago:




Maybe it's time to check them again. <sigh> Re-check accomplished, no changes noted for the Star or the Meteor.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan: you know most older people, heck, people, wouldn't book a trip like this if told thee was No Diner on the Starvation.

And some poor souls would still pay the High Bucket to get out of Dodge on the Starvation if the Meteor was SOLD OUT.

Good for Amtrak, but a Rip off for the Customer! YMMV


----------



## Ryan

niemi24s said:


> Here's an interesting tidbit regarding yield management: The Roomette upcharge for travel this afternoon on the Star from WAS to JAX is $496


No it isn't.




Looks like a low bucket to me, and there has been a price increase ($2).

Edit:

(or your data is just off - low bucket coach is off by $2 the other way)


----------



## jebr

Do we know that the phone and station agents aren't informing people of the lack of diner on the Star?


----------



## Ryan

We don't.

niemi24s, you're also introducing different city pairs into your thinking, which can change things in unexpected ways. Here's some analysis er did 5 years ago. I haven't revisited them, but it may be interesting for you to do so:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/35761-a-look-at-fares-on-the-crescent/


----------



## pennyk

jebr said:


> Do we know that the phone and station agents aren't informing people of the lack of diner on the Star?


They are supposed to be informing passengers.


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do we know that the phone and station agents aren't informing people of the lack of diner on the Star?
> 
> 
> 
> They are supposed to be informing passengers.
Click to expand...

I have been informed at great length each time to the extent that it almost sounded like they were actively discouraging Sleeper bookings on the Star. So yes we know at least in many cases they are informing people at great length. Since these days I travel exclusively by the Star when I am paying for my trip I do know.


----------



## Ryan

jebr said:


> Do we know that the phone and station agents aren't informing people of the lack of diner on the Star?





Ryan said:


> We don't.


Now we do. 

So it's just as Super Top Sekrit on the phone as it is on the website.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks for the update on the Silver Starvation! Good to hear that agents are informing potential riders that there is no Diner on the train, but I still say that charging the same price for the Meteor and Star is dishonest and bad Customer Service! YMMV


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> I still say that charging the same price for the Meteor and Star is dishonest and bad Customer Service! YMMV


Bob, they are not charging the same price for both trains. I travel on the Silvers quite often and I have never seen the sleepers the same price on both trains for any city pairs.


----------



## jis

In my experience I have never been charged the same as the Meteor on the Star, and even now I tend not to believe what is being claimed. I tend to think that someone misread something.

So Bob, save your blood pressure for something that is really happening as opposed to chimera.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Uncle! Uncle! Thanks to our resident Floridians whom I know to be frequent riders on the Silvers and who I believe!

Still wouldn't want to ride from NYP-MIA without a Diner,especially when the Cafe Car sells crap @ Airport Prices! (even if Amtrak claims there is a New and Improved Cafe Menu, aka a Pig by any other Name is still a Pig!)

To each their own said the Old Maid as she kissed her Cow!


----------



## jis

That's why they have a long stop in Washington, so that I can pick up my dinner from Sbarro's or some such  Luckily, I don't eat a huge hot breakfast even in my normal daily life so the absence of that has never bothered me. I often miss it even on trains with Diners (either the breakfast or the lunch, depending on when I wake up). I can happily concoct together something from the Cafe to keep me happy, and I am already where I want to be by lunchtime usually. Similarly in the opposite direction I pick up dinner on the way to Kissimmee to consume on the train. Breakfast as I said . Lunch always is the Amburger and chips or the Pepperoni Pizza and a fruit cup.. So usually I can manage, and then blow the $200 dollars saved taking a few friends to the Chart House in Melbourne.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Luckily, I don't eat a huge hot breakfast even in my normal daily life so the absence of that has never bothered me.


Hypoglycemia means my fiancee *has* to eat a high-protein breakfast, or else. I seem to require it as well.


----------



## niemi24s

FYI, while doing searches using AmSnag to check for any Silver Service bucket changes, found a "1092 Silver Star" on AmSnag and Arrow for tomorrow only - and no 92 Silver Star!


----------



## keelhauled

Temporary schedule change due to CSX trackwork.


----------



## Ryan

Note that it leaves an hour later, but takes significantly longer to arrive.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily, I don't eat a huge hot breakfast even in my normal daily life so the absence of that has never bothered me.
> 
> 
> 
> Hypoglycemia means my fiancee *has* to eat a high-protein breakfast, or else. I seem to require it as well.
Click to expand...

I had no intention whatsoever of implying whatever works for me would work for anyone else. I am a pretty unique guy after all!


----------



## niemi24s

Ryan said:


> No it isn't.


Uh-h-h.......yes it was:




This from about 1015am this morning. Looks like I simply captured it before it went away and you made your inquiry. I'm pretty fast on this here keyboard for an old fa fellow. Arrow must have had a spasm. Wonder if it ever had a "below low bucket" spasm?


----------



## niemi24s

pennyk said:


> Bob, they are not charging the same price for both trains.


Perhaps not generally, but for some unknown period of time ending this morning the Roomette upcharge on the Star for a WAS to JAX trip today was $496...




• $198 higher than the Stars high bucket upcharge of $298 for the entire route and

• Equal to the second-highest Roomette bucket for the _Meteor_ for its entire route.

But methinks Arrow finally passed its blockage and all is well - I think.

FWIW, the Star & Meteor buckets were just checked and no changes were found from what's on the chart in Post #305


----------



## niemi24s

Not that anybody really cares, but here's the top half of the AmSnag query with the $496 Roomette made after reading Benale's Post #299:




It was captured at 1018am EDST this morning. The $496 caught my eye only because I had a paper copy of the bucket chart in Post #305 in front of me.


----------



## niemi24s

Ryan said:


> Here's some analysis er did 5 years ago. I haven't revisited them, but it may be interesting for you to do so: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/35761-a-look-at-fares-on-the-crescent/


Hi Ryan. Thanks for that link. Interesting material indeed. FWIW, that sort of analysis never crossed my mind due to my location and where we usually go. With rare exception, it always seems to be the entire route from end to end. I live so far out in the boondocks it'd take at least one long day to drive to anywhere near the midpoint of an LD train route!


----------



## TML

If the Dining Car has been permanently removed from the Silver Star (as it seems), then I lament its loss, for the following reason:

Due to my dislike of flying, I have considered cruise itineraries which involve hopping on the Silver Star on the same day after disembarking from the ship in Miami (the Silver Meteor's departure time from Miami is too soon after the time ships dock there). With this development, I will most likely put this idea on hold.


----------



## niemi24s

Even though the Meteor leaves just before noon and cruise ships are (rumor has it) seldom late, why not eliminate all anxiety about missing the connection by booking a hotel in Miami and then having the entire morning to get to the train station? You can even take your own sweet time getting off the boat! Just a thought.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Even though the Meteor leaves just before noon and cruise ships are (rumor has it) seldom late, why not eliminate all anxiety about missing the connection by booking a hotel in Miami and then having the entire morning to get to the train station? You can even take your own sweet time getting off the boat! Just a thought.


$$$


----------



## greatcats

If it made sense for me to take the train following a cruise, I would book their lower fare sleeper on the Silver Star and come armed with a nice assortment of dinner items from a deli. Other than beverages or small snacks, they can take their cafe car menu and shove it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

If Amtrak no longer seems like it's the right solution for you then maybe you're just not trying hard enough. Have you considered wasting an extra day of vacation in a random hotel and/or hauling a mobile pantry around with you? If you just keep leveraging more and more third party services eventually you'll find a way to shoehorn Amtrak into your plans regardless of what they remove restrict in the future.


----------



## tricia

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Amtrak no longer seems like it's the right solution for you then maybe you're just not trying hard enough. Have you considered wasting an extra day of vacation in a random hotel and/or hauling a mobile pantry around with you? If you just keep leveraging more and more third party services eventually you'll find a way to shoehorn Amtrak into your plans regardless of what they remove restrict in the future.


 :unsure:  You gave me a good laugh--thanks, D.A. But what you're saying is rooted in a sad reality. More and more, the effort to "find a way to shoehorn Amtrak into your plans" seems less worth it.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

After being so disappointed in the Star losing its dining car, I have come to terms with how I now feel about Amtrak. I now consider it the equivalent of commuter rail--better than that on some days, worse on others. In other words, I expect absolutely nothing good from it and am pleasantly surprised when there is (like the lovely business class attendant on the Carolinian, who offered me a soda and a real newspaper, even though I was only going a short distance).

Any positive experience on Amtrak now goes into the same category as, for example, the nice surprise of having a polite conductor or clean train on NJ Transit.

I have usually been an optimist in my life, but in this case, being a pessimist may be the only thing to keep me cheerful!


----------



## greatcats

That goes along with the line of thinking: Expect the worst. Therefore, you will not be disappointed "


----------



## niemi24s

AmtrakBlue said:


> $$$


You mean it actually costs extra money to spend a night in Miami? Really??? Gosh, I never knew! How silly of me to even suggest such a thing. :blink:

But c'mon, seriously. It's only money! My idea is to enjoy it before the kids get it all as inheritance. And why should we be against going the cheapest possible way - instead of spending a little extra $. Isn't that what most of us gripe about Amtrak doing?


----------



## Ryan

Some of us have bills to pay and families that depend on them and can't afford to throw down extra cash and burn scarce time off of work for that attitude.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> Some of us have bills to pay and families that depend on them and can't afford to throw down extra cash and burn scarce time off of work for that attitude.


^^THIS^^


----------



## jebr

Ryan said:


> Some of us have bills to pay and families that depend on them and can't afford to throw down extra cash and burn scarce time off of work for that attitude.


Just get a job that pays more and has more PTO.


----------



## Ryan

I just need to quit being lazy and be a little more bootstrappy.


----------



## niemi24s

Ryan said:


> Some of us have bills to pay and families that depend on them and can't afford to throw down extra cash and burn scarce time off of work for that attitude.


Gosh, didn't realize I was the only one unaware of TML's financial, family and employment plight. Forgive me for suggesting such a foolhardy thing as <gasp> spending a night in a hotel..

For future reference, with whom do you suggest I consult before making future suggestions?


----------



## CCC1007

niemi24s said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us have bills to pay and families that depend on them and can't afford to throw down extra cash and burn scarce time off of work for that attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh, didn't realize I was the only one unaware of TML's financial, family and employment plight. Forgive me for suggesting such a foolhardy thing as <gasp> spending a night in a hotel..
> For future reference, with whom do you suggest I consult before making future suggestions?
Click to expand...

You must PM every member requesting permission to speak.


----------



## Ryan

Or one can just use a tiny bit of common sense and realize that some people have jobs and can't just willy-nilly add days to their trip because of Amtrak's shortcomings and throw cash at a problem that wouldn't exist if they just took a flight.

It's hardly an unusual position to be in.


----------



## niemi24s

Well, I sat here at the keyboard for a few minutes wondering what to say and then it suddenly hit me....

Why bother?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

niemi24s said:


> Well, I sat here at the keyboard for a few minutes wondering what to say and then it suddenly hit me....
> 
> Why bother?


Priceless 

I agree Amtrak is leaving money on the table with tight connection to cruise ships. However the local motel are not complaining.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

http://www.cruiseportschedules.com/Cruise_Ship_Schedules/Cruise_Ports/United_States/Fort_Lauderdale_Florida_Cruise_Port_Schedule.html

Fort Lauderdale has cruise ship activity 20 days out of the 29 days of February. Oh let's try some marketing, and a bus connection.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> Or one can just use a tiny bit of common sense and realize that some people have jobs and can't just willy-nilly add days to their trip because of Amtrak's shortcomings and throw cash at a problem that wouldn't exist if they just took a flight.
> 
> It's hardly an unusual position to be in.


Plus, I'd think most travelers would think of a hotel as an option if they had the time & money, so no need to point that out to them.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I sat here at the keyboard for a few minutes wondering what to say and then it suddenly hit me....
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> 
> 
> Priceless
> 
> I agree Amtrak is leaving money on the table with tight connection to cruise ships. However the local motel are not complaining.
Click to expand...

I wonder if Amtrak can better cater to the cruise line market and offer a same day arrival/departure from Ft. Lauderdale. The Silver Star northbound works well if you're willing to accept cafe car service but the southbound doesn't. It seems unusual the Star and Meteor arrive in the Miami area almost at the same time (within an hour of each other). To arrive in Ft. Lauderdale by 2pm, you'd have to leave New York around 8am and it would almost be on top of the Palmetto which has to have that schedule due to its day train nature.

Could an Amtrak-cruise line deal similar to Amtrak-Greyhound be an idea? I thought I remembered air-rail specials in the past (rail one way and fly the other) at one point. I'm guessing the airlines and cruise ships don't need Amtrak as much as Amtrak needs them while Amtrak and Greyhound working together mutually helps both parties.


----------



## OBS

Amtrak does (or did) have a marketing arrangement with Carnival Cruise line for a discount on rail fare...


----------



## Ryan

niemi24s said:


> Well, I sat here at the keyboard for a few minutes wondering what to say and then it suddenly hit me....
> 
> Why bother?


Things that would have been better than this post:

1. *Actually* saying nothing.

2. Stopping 3 posts ago, rather than doubling down on the wrongness.

3. "I see where extra vacation days and spending extra money on a hotel would be a burden on some people. I'll keep that in mind when posting in the future".


----------



## niemi24s

<yawn>


----------



## neroden

Bluntly, if you're going to make a train to connect to the *cruise ship market*, you'd better use one with a full dining car. For service consistency. It would actually make sense to try to schedule the Silver Meteor to connect comfortably with as many cruises as possible, in both directions.


----------



## Palmetto

Not a hard thing to do. Just flip the schedules of the two trains.


----------



## v v

Back to topic.

As has been mentioned LD trains and dining cars just go together. An LD train with a snack bar or whatever it's called devalues it's image into a LD commuter train with snacks available. That's what Rosie and I felt when we booked our tickets this morning on the Silver Star(vation) (thanks Bob). We aren't interested in 5 star hotels or 5 star restaurants, but being served at a table in a train dining car has a special feel, it's (to us) a major part of LD train travel. We're not even foodies.

The SS is devalued enough in our eyes that we would have been happier paying more to use the SM but the timing into Richmond going north wasn't an option.

The other important factor (for us) that may not carry as much weight with others? is riding a train with a diner you are 'forced' to be seated with strangers, again one of the major ingredients of LD train travel. One of the major opportunities to meet natives where ever you are.

If I had to condense the appeal of LD train (Amtrak) travel (for us) it's -


just being able to meet people by being seated with complete strangers and often hearing fascinating stories
riding long enough to travel over-night
eating while watching the world go by
being forced to slow right down and relax
often seeing the most beautiful scenery or even terrible derelict areas of cities, it's all part of life to be appreciated and often seen only from a train window

So losing a dining car is a big deal to us and as non US citizens lessens the appeal of LD travel by a fair bit. Any future Amtrak travel for us would ensure that we checked if the train came complete with a dining car, as on reflection the being thrown together with strangers comes top of the list.

Just a personal point of view...


----------



## niemi24s

Perfectly put, VV. Bravo! Anything less reminds me of flying the British Airways "cattle cars" back & forth to The Kingdom in the 1970's.

Cheers


----------



## v v

Flying anywhere via modern airports reminds me of being treated like cattle, prodded, poked and herded then shut in a small container...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Amtrak is going to upgrade the Sliver Star cafe cars food chooses in April / May. Vegan, Gluten Free, and such.

ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.


----------



## niemi24s

Will anything remain for us carnivores?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

niemi24s said:


> Will anything remain for us carnivores?


The hot dog for 33 hours...


----------



## greatcats

Perhaps the new featured menu items will be vegan dog food.


----------



## niemi24s

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The hot dog for 33 hours...


Almost hate to say this with all the gourmets on this forum, but I _really_ like those Hebrew National hot dogs. With a bag of chips and a Pepsi or beer, I'm good for the day.


----------



## Palmetto

Me too. Hebrew National or Nathan's!! And I'm not of the Jewish persuasion!


----------



## Thirdrail7

niemi24s said:


> Almost hate to say this with all the gourmets on this forum, but I _really_ like those Hebrew National hot dogs. With a bag of chips and a Pepsi or beer, I'm good for the day.


I love the Hebrew National's although I prefer them grilled.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?


----------



## CCC1007

As permanent as anything Amtrak does...


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?


It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
Click to expand...

Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
Click to expand...

You're a couple months behind the curve on that debate. I suggest looking at some of the other posts in this thread for everything we know about the situation.


----------



## Triley

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
Click to expand...

That's why, depending on your origin/destination, you still have the option of the Silver Meteor.

And if everyone riding the long hauls felt the way you did, I'm sure patronage of the diners would be higher, and it would still be on the Silver Star....maybe. I'm still convinced it has something to do with being able to pull a few Heritage diners off the road, until the new ones are released for revenue service.

I can't even begin to image the cost for materials and labor involved in keeping diners that are as old as my grandmother up and running. And by pulling a diner off 91/92, they're able to pull what, four diners out of service? That's great to be able to salvage parts from them if necessary.

I'm sure it'll be reinstated eventually.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Triley said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's why, depending on your origin/destination, you still have the option of the Silver Meteor. And if everyone riding the long hauls felt the way you did, I'm sure patronage of the diners would be higher, and it would still be on the Silver Star....maybe.
Click to expand...

I'm staunchly pro-diner myself but Amtrak's menu selection and food quality has degraded to the point that it's becoming hard to miss it. Which is a real shame since the dining experience had substantially improved just before Amtrak suddenly reversed course and started reducing quality and selection yet again. America's Congress strikes again.



Triley said:


> I'm sure it'll be reinstated eventually.


How do you figure? If balancing the budget is the key to Amtrak's schizophrenic mandate, then outside of a few heavily traveled corridors there is virtually no situation where reducing/restricting/removing current service doesn't benefit Amtrak's bottom line. It might be possible to bring in a third party to improve the meal service, but Amtrak doesn't appear to be interested in considering that option.


----------



## keelhauled

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
Click to expand...

What exactly is your definition of fresh?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

keelhauled said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What exactly is your definition of fresh?
Click to expand...

Freshly cooked, rather than microwaved.


----------



## jis

AFFAICT progressively less and less is freshly cooked even in the Amtrak Diners, most unfortunately. But at least if they could get the ambiance right with the new Diners, that would be an improvement. of course nothing substitutes for getting back to the good old days of CIA (no not the spook CIA) trained chefs.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> AFFAICT progressively less and less is freshly cooked even in the Amtrak Diners, most unfortunately. But at least if they could get the ambiance right with the new Diners, that would be an improvement. of course nothing substitutes for getting back to the good old days of CIA (no not the spook CIA) trained chefs.


Since when? A few years ago, at the start of the "Enhanced Dining" or whatever it was called there was no food cooked to order at all. No steaks, no eggs (remember the Bob Evans Breakfast Scramble). The full service dining cars are in much better shape now then they were then.

About 2-3 years ago you could get some really great meals for Lunch and Dinner. The Crab Cakes, The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi Filet were all very good dinner entrees and the Beechers Cheese Macaroni and Cheese Pasta, and the fancy Grilled Cheese Sandwich were great lunch choices as well. It was also during that time I saw cloth table cloths, ceramic plates, and glassware on the Starlight, Empire Builder, and Capitol Limited (now it's just the Starlight).

I agree that the quality went downhill, the items I mentioned above are no longer available except for the Starlight Parlour Car Menu. (Unless the Crab Cakes on the current menu compare to the ones previous? I haven't tried them yet.) But that really doesn't have much to do with how the food is prepared.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFFAICT progressively less and less is freshly cooked even in the Amtrak Diners, most unfortunately. But at least if they could get the ambiance right with the new Diners, that would be an improvement. of course nothing substitutes for getting back to the good old days of CIA (no not the spook CIA) trained chefs.
> 
> 
> 
> Since when? A few years ago, at the start of the "Enhanced Dining" or whatever it was called there was no food cooked to order at all. No steaks, no eggs (remember the Bob Evans Breakfast Scramble). The full service dining cars are in much better shape now then they were then.
> 
> About 2-3 years ago you could get some really great meals for Lunch and Dinner. The Crab Cakes, The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi Filet were all very good dinner entrees and the Beechers Cheese Macaroni and Cheese Pasta, and the fancy Grilled Cheese Sandwich were great lunch choices as well. It was also during that time I saw cloth table cloths, ceramic plates, and glassware on the Starlight, Empire Builder, and Capitol Limited (now it's just the Starlight).
> 
> I agree that the quality went downhill, the items I mentioned above are no longer available except for the Starlight Parlour Car Menu. (Unless the Crab Cakes on the current menu compare to the ones previous? I haven't tried them yet.) But that really doesn't have much to do with how the food is prepared.
Click to expand...

Also, about the food quality, the thing I hate is the scrambled eggs don't taste like normal scrambled eggs to me, and also I've always seen biscuits and croissants as whole wheat. Is there actually an option of whether you can eat it as white or whole wheat or no?


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> How do you figure? If balancing the budget is the key to Amtrak's schizophrenic mandate, then outside of a few heavily traveled corridors there is virtually no situation where reducing/restricting/removing current service doesn't benefit Amtrak's bottom line. It might be possible to bring in a third party to improve the meal service, but Amtrak doesn't appear to be interested in considering that option.


You know, of course. Balancing the budget by increasing revenue. It's clearly not possible to do so by cutting costs. Cutting costs is often *bad* for the bottom line.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFFAICT progressively less and less is freshly cooked even in the Amtrak Diners, most unfortunately. But at least if they could get the ambiance right with the new Diners, that would be an improvement. of course nothing substitutes for getting back to the good old days of CIA (no not the spook CIA) trained chefs.
> 
> 
> 
> Since when? A few years ago, at the start of the "Enhanced Dining" or whatever it was called there was no food cooked to order at all. No steaks, no eggs (remember the Bob Evans Breakfast Scramble). The full service dining cars are in much better shape now then they were then.
> 
> About 2-3 years ago you could get some really great meals for Lunch and Dinner. The Crab Cakes, The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi Filet were all very good dinner entrees and the Beechers Cheese Macaroni and Cheese Pasta, and the fancy Grilled Cheese Sandwich were great lunch choices as well. It was also during that time I saw cloth table cloths, ceramic plates, and glassware on the Starlight, Empire Builder, and Capitol Limited (now it's just the Starlight).
> 
> I agree that the quality went downhill, the items I mentioned above are no longer available except for the Starlight Parlour Car Menu. (Unless the Crab Cakes on the current menu compare to the ones previous? I haven't tried them yet.) But that really doesn't have much to do with how the food is prepared.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Also, about the food quality, the thing I hate is the scrambled eggs don't taste like normal scrambled eggs to me, and also I've always seen biscuits and croissants as whole wheat. Is there actually an option of whether you can eat it as white or whole wheat or no?
Click to expand...

The Amtrak Scrambled eggs are indeed freshly made scrambled eggs. Since they are fresh made, they will vary from serving to serving. (Every cook puts a bit more or less liquid in with the eggs).

Every Croissant I've ever been served on Amtrak is white.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFFAICT progressively less and less is freshly cooked even in the Amtrak Diners, most unfortunately. But at least if they could get the ambiance right with the new Diners, that would be an improvement. of course nothing substitutes for getting back to the good old days of CIA (no not the spook CIA) trained chefs.
> 
> 
> 
> Since when? A few years ago, at the start of the "Enhanced Dining" or whatever it was called there was no food cooked to order at all. No steaks, no eggs (remember the Bob Evans Breakfast Scramble). The full service dining cars are in much better shape now then they were then.
> 
> About 2-3 years ago you could get some really great meals for Lunch and Dinner. The Crab Cakes, The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi Filet were all very good dinner entrees and the Beechers Cheese Macaroni and Cheese Pasta, and the fancy Grilled Cheese Sandwich were great lunch choices as well. It was also during that time I saw cloth table cloths, ceramic plates, and glassware on the Starlight, Empire Builder, and Capitol Limited (now it's just the Starlight).
> 
> I agree that the quality went downhill, the items I mentioned above are no longer available except for the Starlight Parlour Car Menu. (Unless the Crab Cakes on the current menu compare to the ones previous? I haven't tried them yet.) But that really doesn't have much to do with how the food is prepared.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Also, about the food quality, the thing I hate is the scrambled eggs don't taste like normal scrambled eggs to me, and also I've always seen biscuits and croissants as whole wheat. Is there actually an option of whether you can eat it as white or whole wheat or no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Amtrak Scrambled eggs are indeed freshly made scrambled eggs. Since they are fresh made, they will vary from serving to serving. (Every cook puts a bit more or less liquid in with the eggs).
> 
> Every Croissant I've ever been served on Amtrak is white.
Click to expand...

I agree. I'm sure I would have noticed if the croissants were not white. And I've always enjoyed the scrambled eggs.


----------



## SarahZ

The eggs taste like real eggs to me, but they do taste "different". They remind me of the way my mother makes them, with a tiny bit of milk added while whisking them in a bowl.

Then again, I've only had the scrambled eggs once, so the taste may indeed vary from chef to chef. I tend to order either a cheese omelet or French toast.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

SarahZ said:


> The eggs taste like real eggs to me, but they do taste "different". They remind me of the way my mother makes them, with a tiny bit of milk added while whisking them in a bowl.
> 
> Then again, I've only had the scrambled eggs once, so the taste may indeed vary from chef to chef. I tend to order either a cheese omelet or French toast.


I guess they don't taste "different" to me because I always make my scrambled eggs with milk.


----------



## neroden

It's not OK to put milk in the scrambled eggs. Just ask my dairy-allergic fiancee... this sort of random adulteration is why she can't eat in the dining car, y'know?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> It's not OK to put milk in the scrambled eggs. Just ask my dairy-allergic fiancee... this sort of random adulteration is why she can't eat in the dining car, y'know?


Umm... Who says it's not part of the recipe? It's very normal to have milk or cream in the eggs. If the menu said "dairy free scrambled eggs" than I would see your point.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not OK to put milk in the scrambled eggs. Just ask my dairy-allergic fiancee... this sort of random adulteration is why she can't eat in the dining car, y'know?
> 
> 
> 
> Umm... Who says it's not part of the recipe? It's very normal to have milk or cream in the eggs. If the menu said "dairy free scrambled eggs" than I would see your point.
Click to expand...

The question is does Amtrak publish that bit of information? Just because it is part of someone's recipe does not mean it is OK to do it, specially if such is not published in the published list of ingredients. Of course Amtrak may have solved the problem by simply not publishing list of ingredients accepting the fact that they may have no clue what goes into the food they serve.... but I jest.


----------



## SarahZ

I'm not positive they use milk. I said they taste like they do. I could be wrong.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

For what it's worth the Amtrak site lists the only allergen as eggs.

Scrambled eggs are an item that are regularly made with dairy. That's just a fact. Anyone with a dairy allergy should ask when ordering them anywhere. I remember reading recently that ihop uses pancake batter in their eggs, which is a problem for gluten-free diets.


----------



## neroden

Oh, we do ask every time.

Scrambled eggs are ***never*** supposed to be made with dairy; I learned the history of this decades ago. Putting milk in the eggs was introduced as an economy measure during the Great Depression when eggs were more expensive than milk.  It was later used by lazy restaurants because it can allow for sloppier, less competent cooking without it being obvious.

My grandmother actually had money during the Great Depression and as a result turned her nose up at adulterated eggs; it was a clear sign of a low-class restaurant which was cheaping out.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Just did a google "how to make scrambled eggs" and milk and/or cream was listed in all of the top hits I looked at. Though 2 did say "optional".

I would expect any scrambled eggs I get out would have milk in them.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> Oh, we do ask every time.
> 
> Scrambled eggs are ***never*** supposed to be made with dairy; I learned the history of this decades ago. Putting milk in the eggs was introduced as an economy measure during the Great Depression when eggs were more expensive than milk.  *It's gross that people are still doing it out of habit, but that's stupidity for you....*
> 
> My grandmother actually had money during the Great Depression and as a result turned her nose up at adulterated eggs; it was a clear sign of a low-class restaurant which was cheaping out.


Excuse me. I find your remarks insulting.


----------



## jis

OK. Now I think we are totally scrambled out.... time to move onto discussing Silver Star food service again, maybe? So how many believe that the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?


----------



## greatcats

50-50.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> OK. Now I think we are totally scrambled out.... time to move onto discussing Silver Star food service again, maybe? So how many believe that the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?


*Raises hand*


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> OK. Now I think we are totally scrambled out.... time to move onto discussing Silver Star food service again, maybe? So how many believe that the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?


With the availability of new Viewliner II diners, I'd say three years is a safe assumption (likely sooner). I think we can be certain that the current food service arrangement will change, just a matter of in what way and how soon.


----------



## Eric S

jis said:


> OK. Now I think we are totally scrambled out.... time to move onto discussing Silver Star food service again, maybe? So how many believe that the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?


Does this question assume all new diners are in service by then?


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm from Missouri on this one, I'll believe it when I actually see the Diner in the Star consist!

Probably will take a new CEO to implement this since Boardman is on his farewell trip @ Amtrak and wants to keep his ill advised promise to the Congressional mica-managers to cut the losses in food and drink service aboard Amtrak trains.


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> OK. Now I think we are totally scrambled out.... time to move onto discussing Silver Star food service again, maybe? So how many believe that the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?


Not me. Cost savings are too significant to ignore.


----------



## jis

Well we at least got ourselves off of scrambling eggs


----------



## OBS

Good job Jis!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

On April 23, pre-plated meals will be added to the cafe menu in the Silver Star. These are vacuum packed entrees microwaved to order. It's basically the same as the Cardinal Diner-lite meals, just without the sit-down table service or dinner rolls.

The option will be:


*$12 Spinach Lasagna with Mixed Vegetables*: Layered pasta sheet with spinach, parmesan and ricotta and mozzarella cheese, green beans, carrots, yellow carrots, pearl onions and red pepper with Roma tomato marinara sauce
*$12 Beef Stroganoff*: Slow braised boneless beef with Fusili pasta roasted mushrooms all smothered in natural beef demi glace
*$12 Turkey Meatloaf*: Turkey meatloaf with red skin mashed potatoes, honey glazed carrots. green beans with turkey gravy
*$12 Rigatoni with Sausage & Peppers*: Rigatoni pasta, red peppers, sweet Italian sausage, crushed red pepper flakes tossed in a creamy tomato sauce
*$7.50 French Toast Bites*: Griddled French toast cut into bit size pieces tossed with maple syrup


----------



## A Voice

AmtrakLKL said:


> On April 23, pre-plated meals will be added to the cafe menu in the Silver Star. These are vacuum packed entrees microwaved to order. It's basically the same as the Cardinal Diner-lite meals, just without the sit-down table service or dinner rolls.
> 
> The option will be:
> 
> 
> *$12 Spinach Lasagna with Mixed Vegetables*: Layered pasta sheet with spinach, parmesan and ricotta and mozzarella cheese, green beans, carrots, yellow carrots, pearl onions and red pepper with Roma tomato marinara sauce
> *$12 Beef Stroganoff*: Slow braised boneless beef with Fusili pasta roasted mushrooms all smothered in natural beef demi glace
> *$12 Turkey Meatloaf*: Turkey meatloaf with red skin mashed potatoes, honey glazed carrots. green beans with turkey gravy
> *$12 Rigatoni with Sausage & Peppers*: Rigatoni pasta, red peppers, sweet Italian sausage, crushed red pepper flakes tossed in a creamy tomato sauce
> *$7.50 French Toast Bites*: Griddled French toast cut into bit size pieces tossed with maple syrup


While we all would rather have the full dining car, this is indeed progress, and probably evidence that Amtrak is well aware the _Silver Star_ needs improved food service. I'll applaud this change, but if I have to nit-pick on something, why can't they warm us up a dinner roll?


----------



## MARC Rider

Thirdrail7 said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Almost hate to say this with all the gourmets on this forum, but I _really_ like those Hebrew National hot dogs. With a bag of chips and a Pepsi or beer, I'm good for the day.
> 
> 
> 
> I love the Hebrew National's although I prefer them grilled.
Click to expand...

Oh yes Hebrew National is probably one of the best mass market frankfurter available. However, I wish they could take the bun out of the wrap and toast it seperately. Microwaved bread is digusting.


----------



## MARC Rider

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm a little confused here with different answers. Is it official: the Silver Star permanently has no diner? Or has Amtrak still not decided yet?
> 
> 
> 
> It is permanent until they decide something else as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow! I can barely imagine travelling on an overnight train with no diner. Personally, I'd prefer fresh meals for a good breakfast, lunch, or dinner. There are some things in the cafe car I like, but I prefer fresh meals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What exactly is your definition of fresh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Freshly cooked, rather than microwaved.
Click to expand...

You realize that even in the good old days of 3 years ago, when the food was still pretty good, most things on the menu were pre-cooked. Pre-cooked isn't necessarily bad, it depends on what's being pre-cooked. In fact, they called it "sous vide," which is fancy chef talk for pre cooking stuff in vacuum bags, and is considered high class gastronomy. Remember those veal shanks? And the short ribs? Mmm-mmm. All pre-cooked.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Paulus said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> [Will] the Silver Star will get a Diner back within three years?
> 
> 
> 
> Not me. Cost savings are too significant to ignore.
Click to expand...

Yeah, unless I missed an update, the _Star_'s costs go down about $6 million a year, right? Meanwhile Amtrak figures show the _Star's_ losses were about $6 million a year more than the _Meteor_'s. Now they are *both* gonna be very close to break even (before much overhead and numerous costs).
The two _Silvers_ overlap for most of the way, and for most of the riders, it's OK if one has diners and the other goes sans diner. And since the diners do not leave the CAF plant with "_Silver Star_" in big letters on the side, I'm ready for another train to use them, like a revived _Broadway Ltd._ serving PGH-CLE-TOR-Waterloo (Ft Wayne) in daylight.

Edit: I made some ]mistake[ typing in the command for _italic_ and can't edit it out.


----------



## me_little_me

Darn, I was hoping for pre-paid convection ovens (you put in your credit card, select your cooking time, and are billed by the minute until you remove your item) so I can put my Swanson TV Dinner in my backpack. Mmmmm!


----------



## Carolina Special

At least we know the Amtrak marketing department can produce fancy descriptions for frozen dinners.

Personally, I'd go for a hot dog from the cafe car ahead of these selections. But I'm not really the target audience.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Carolina Special said:


> At least we know the Amtrak marketing department can produce fancy descriptions for frozen dinners.
> 
> Personally, I'd go for a hot dog from the cafe car ahead of these selections. But I'm not really the target audience.


Don't give them too much credit... they probably copied the wording from the back of the box!

I'd give one of these dishes a try. It's a step in the right direction to serve something that at least resembles a meal.


----------



## Train2104

I wonder what gave in order for there to be sufficient refrigeration capacity to store these.


----------



## Palmland

I'm not a fan of the somewhat tubular feel of AmCafes with their small windows, and sometimes boisterous lounge passengers, But it is good to see something offered that is a step up from hot dogs or subs.

I wonder if there are any rules about taking the expandied menu items back to your room. Might not be too bad to enjoy with a bottle of wine in a Viewliner bedroom.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Train2104 said:


> I wonder what gave in order for there to be sufficient refrigeration capacity to store these.


As has been discussed before, the Amfleet II lounges have ample storage space.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I wonder if these pre-plated meals are something that can be bought in the grocery freezer or are they custom made by Aramark (or whoever is the contractor)?


----------



## Triley

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I wonder if these pre-plated meals are something that can be bought in the grocery freezer or are they custom made by Aramark (or whoever is the contractor)?


Doesn't really pertain to the topic, but to clarify the side thought... As far as I know, Aramark has nothing to do with actual food prep (other than building the cheese trays). I'm not sure about for long hauls, but for the First Class meals, I believe they're actually made at the local airports and brought over to the commissary. Boston is obviously sourced from Logan, New York is from La Guardia, and to be honest, I'm not quite sure where DC's is sourced from. I've seen BOS, LGA, and WAS as the codes for where the meals come from.


----------



## neroden

Jim Matthews spoke a bit about the proposed frozen dinners on the Silver Star. They have one huge advantage over the dining cars....

...according to him, they have INGREDIENT LISTS. As such, I would like to see them on all the trains because I could probably actually eat some of them. I can't eat anything but breakfast and salads in the dining car now because Amtrak refuses to find out the ingredients.

I hope someone can verify that the ingredient lists are actually available for the frozen dinners. If Amtrak refuses to provide them, it's time to make an even bigger stink.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> On April 23, pre-plated meals will be added to the cafe menu in the Silver Star. These are vacuum packed entrees microwaved to order. It's basically the same as the Cardinal Diner-lite meals, just without the sit-down table service or dinner rolls.
> 
> The option will be:
> 
> 
> *$12 Spinach Lasagna with Mixed Vegetables*: Layered pasta sheet with spinach, parmesan and ricotta and mozzarella cheese, green beans, carrots, yellow carrots, pearl onions and red pepper with Roma tomato marinara sauce
> *$12 Beef Stroganoff*: Slow braised boneless beef with Fusili pasta roasted mushrooms all smothered in natural beef demi glace
> *$12 Turkey Meatloaf*: Turkey meatloaf with red skin mashed potatoes, honey glazed carrots. green beans with turkey gravy
> *$12 Rigatoni with Sausage & Peppers*: Rigatoni pasta, red peppers, sweet Italian sausage, crushed red pepper flakes tossed in a creamy tomato sauce
> *$7.50 French Toast Bites*: Griddled French toast cut into bit size pieces tossed with maple syrup


Obviously I have no way of knowing whether I can eat any of these without the full ingredients list (because I'm allergic to annoying additives), but I'd happily try any of them if the ingredients were safe. Hopefully at least one would be.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Everything on the New Silver Starvation Menu sounds pretty good,( nice prices too!) but based on the French Toast "Sticks" that are served on the Cardinal and that I found to be terrible, it will be interesting to hear from members who actually ride this train and try the items!


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

I've been hearing different rumors about the diner, but when the new Viewliner diners enter service, what are the chances of whether the Silver Star diner will return or not?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Obviously those willing to pay for it should have diner service. But I like the idea of the ability to get a room without paying for the meals too.

I'd want to make it roomettes come without meals and bedrooms with meals. Roomette passengers can still use (and pay for) the diner car but can also choose the lounge car for cheaper meals. I'd probably at least consider getting a roomette if the prices were similar to the SS prices I saw. I'd have a feeling though the bedrooms would skyrocket in price in this case to make up for it. You can say the normal approach works but you've priced a lot of people out of roomettes/bedrooms and they're stuck going coach.


----------



## jis

Why not sell either bare accommodation or accommodation plus service pack, the latter including meals. Then one can either choose just transportation/accommodation, or the full service. My suspicion would be that for people who are traveling two to a roomette might find the service pack more suitable whereas single travelers in roomettes might find the bare accommodation more suitable.


----------



## JoeBas

Because without the sleeper transfer of funds, on a mandatory basis, the Diners become economically untenable, and go away, whether you want them yourself or not.

I'm entirely NOT in favor of turning Amtrak into Spirit Trainlines.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

JoeBas said:


> Because without the sleeper transfer of funds, on a mandatory basis, the Diners become economically untenable, and go away, whether you want them yourself or not.
> 
> I'm entirely NOT in favor of turning Amtrak into Spirit Trainlines.


Good point. What if just one Sleeper Class passenger opt'ed for the $60 meal package. Amtrak would need to run the dining car, and staff it, for just that one person?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

MARC Rider said:


> However, I wish they could take the bun out of the wrap and toast it seperately. Microwaved bread is digusting.


That's what I do at home. 

Microwaving the bread/bun too, just makes it awful. If its cold, I toss it into the toaster/oven.

PS: I take the mustard packet out too, before microwaving.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because without the sleeper transfer of funds, on a mandatory basis, the Diners become economically untenable, and go away, whether you want them yourself or not.
> 
> I'm entirely NOT in favor of turning Amtrak into Spirit Trainlines.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. What if just one Sleeper Class passenger opt'ed for the $60 meal package. Amtrak would need to run the dining car, and staff it, for just that one person?
Click to expand...

Certainly not! There may be others that would, perhaps, want fresh meals rather than microwaved meals.


----------



## jis

JoeBas said:


> Because without the sleeper transfer of funds, on a mandatory basis, the Diners become economically untenable, and go away, whether you want them yourself or not.
> 
> I'm entirely NOT in favor of turning Amtrak into Spirit Trainlines.


But remember, only food that is consumed is paid into the Diner fund from the Sleeper. The rest appears as earnings for Sleeper transportation. So when I travel by Sleeper, only two meals worth per day on an average is transferred, since I seldom eat the third meal. The rest remains in transportation. So even if I was traveling on a transport ticket and partaking in the usual two meals that I do take, the amount of money that gets into the Diner fund will be exactly the same. Only the transport side will lose out on the extra money that they pocket now.


----------



## JoeBas

But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.


----------



## jis

JoeBas said:


> But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.


True. That is why I am preferentially using the Silver Star now for travel in Sleeper along the Atlantic Coast. I am glad that they will make some reasonable choices available in the cafe. If I need to spend large sums of money on gourmet meals I'd rather do so at places like Morton's and the Chart House.

I think equipment-wise they should replace the Cafe in the Silver Star with a new Diner, but use it as a Buffet cum Lounge car serving the enhanced cafe menu with no additional staff needed for table service.

Even back when Amtrak started this stuff about including meals in the ticket, I avoided full Sleeper and chose to travel by Slumbercoaches where the meals were not included in the ticket, but of course one was able to use the Diner when one chose to. For single travelers like me who does not even eat all three meals, in roomettes the up-charge for meals is way larger than anything that one can reasonably recover..


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.
> 
> 
> 
> True. That is why I am preferentially using the Silver Star now for travel in Sleeper along the Atlantic Coast. I am glad that they will make some reasonable choices available in the cafe. If I need to spend large sums of money on gourmet meals I'd rather do so at places like Morton's and the Chart House.
> 
> I think equipment-wise they should replace the Cafe in the Silver Star with a new Diner, but use it as a Buffet cum Lounge car serving the enhanced cafe menu with no additional staff needed for table service.
> 
> Even back when Amtrak started this stuff about including meals in the ticket, I avoided full Sleeper and chose to travel by Slumbercoaches where the meals were not included in the ticket, but of course one was able to use the Diner when one chose to. For single travelers like me who does not even eat all three meals, in roomettes the up-charge for meals is way larger than anything that one can reasonably recover..
Click to expand...

Ditto (though I've never seen a slumbercoach). I usually skip lunch if I'm on long enough for 3 meals.


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.
> 
> 
> 
> True. That is why I am preferentially using the Silver Star now for travel in Sleeper along the Atlantic Coast. I am glad that they will make some reasonable choices available in the cafe. If I need to spend large sums of money on gourmet meals I'd rather do so at places like Morton's and the Chart House.
> I think equipment-wise they should replace the Cafe in the Silver Star with a new Diner, but use it as a Buffet cum Lounge car serving the enhanced cafe menu with no additional staff needed for table service.
> 
> Even back when Amtrak started this stuff about including meals in the ticket, I avoided full Sleeper and chose to travel by Slumbercoaches where the meals were not included in the ticket, but of course one was able to use the Diner when one chose to. For single travelers like me who does not even eat all three meals, in roomettes the up-charge for meals is way larger than anything that one can reasonably recover..
Click to expand...

But without that recovery spread over as many people as possible, the diner just goes away. Buh bye.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because without the sleeper transfer of funds, on a mandatory basis, the Diners become economically untenable, and go away, whether you want them yourself or not.
> 
> I'm entirely NOT in favor of turning Amtrak into Spirit Trainlines.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. What if just one Sleeper Class passenger opt'ed for the $60 meal package. Amtrak would need to run the dining car, and staff it, for just that one person?
Click to expand...

This is pure setting up a strawman and knocking it down with much elegance.  Amtrak ran without the mandatory food charge until about the late 80s or mid 90s and it is not like the Diners were running empty. There is significant evidence that they are currently unable to serve all Coach passengers that wish to use the Diner either.

The problem is considering F&B as a separate P&L item. That is just stupid. The second legitimate problem is labor cost as a proportion of the total cost of service. Unfortunately that has been trending in an unfavorable direction, so it has to be addressed anyway to some extent. Back in the '80s it was believed that by forcing Sleeper passengers to use the Diner the labor cost problem could be punted upon. That has proved to be untenable, so it needs to be addressed to some extent. But trying to simultaneously make the F&B independently profitable or zero loss is what is causing all the big problems, and I don't think mandatory inclusion of food charges necessarily makes a huge difference in solving the problem when many passengers are looking for Diner service and Diner capacity on trains are unable to accommodate all.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

In comparing Sleeper fares between the Meteor and the Star, I see that the difference is $50. If you're sharing the accommodation with someone else, that's 6 complete meals (2 lunch, 2 dinner, and 2 breakfast) in the dining car for an avg of $8.33 each. That's not all that huge. Matter of fact, I could call that down-right reasonably priced.

If you're alone, that the price per meal, of course, doubles to $16.66.

Even comparing that $16 against those recently mentioned "microwaved vacuum packed entrees" at $12, the $16 isn't all that bad once one factors that it includes a salad, dessert, beverage, and possibly a roll too.


----------



## jis

Let me draw your attention to:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66084-silver-service-test-period-fares/?p=630797

and

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66084-silver-service-test-period-fares/?p=631362

And point out that a result arrived at by cherrypicking an appropriate pair of fare buckets is not necessarily a good way of analyzing this. In other words your conclusions are faulty based on faulty analysis. While they are true for the specific pair of fares chosen, no general conclusions can be drawn from the numbers used.


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> The problem is considering F&B as a separate P&L item. That is just stupid.


No, that's congress. 

The reason that the meals were "included" in the first place is that the dining car patronage was too low, people weren't buying the increasingly pricey food, and the storm clouds were gathering on the horizon regarding dropping them entirely. I don't see how any of that has changed if we went back to "a la carte" dining service.


----------



## jis

In general in trains that run with affordable fares for the general public, dining car service has been doomed more or less all over the world, not just in the US. Actually the reason that Dining Cars still survive in the US is because of the relative lack of use of passenger trains in the US. Where passenger trains are heavily used, either Dining Car service is a-la carte, together with the willingness to swallow a substantial loss for social/marketing/whatever reason, or where food is included in ticket, there is seldom a Dining Car. The food is served at your seat. When you have a thousand passengers on a train there simply is no way to include food in ticket and actually serve them in Dining Cars, without charging exorbitant fares, which of course will ensure that there are no thousand passengers on a train.

So I agree the equation has probably not changed, but I also think that traditional Dining Car service as we know it is doomed. We really need to start thinking out of the box on how to provide reasonable food service instead being stuck in the mode of trying to save something that really does not work, and in the process get worse and worse food service as time goes on.

Do I know what the solution precisely is or should be? Of course not. But looking around elsewhere it is pretty clear to me what the solution is not going to be, unless some magic can be found to reduce labor costs dramatically.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.


That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The wheels of the bus train go round and round


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> Do I know what the solution precisely is or should be? Of course not. But looking around elsewhere it is pretty clear to me what the solution is not going to be, unless some magic can be found to reduce labor costs dramatically.


There's an old saying that's still used in the business world - you don't overthrow the king, until you KNOW who the new king will be.


----------



## jis

We're seeing the process unfold as we speak. I just wish it could be carried out more rationally in a more deliberative way. But apparently not.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.
Click to expand...

So, you always buy all your food from the odd dude in seat B37?


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, you always buy all your food from the odd dude in seat B37?
Click to expand...

Huh?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains.

The problem for Amtrak is... the passengers they serve are from all walks of life. And have totally different desires and expectations when it comes to food service. If they could find a way to make decent food in the Cafe car, I think that's the simplest answer. Panera Bread has several good pasta selections that are either microwaved or quickly convection oven cooked to order. Not sure about the paninis and such that they have but they are made quickly, and are obviously pre-made and shipped in.

Hopefully the new "meals" in the cafe car will be good quality.


----------



## JoeBas

"The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains."

The Silver Star is proving that there's a market for less-than-full-service dining, at a lower price point, while dining is still available for those who require it on a (mostly) parallel route. Important difference.


----------



## MARC Rider

"There is significant evidence that they are currently unable to serve all Coach passengers that wish to use the Diner either."

Happened to me a few years ago when I was traveling coach ... on the Silver Star, of all trains.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

JoeBas said:


> "The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains."
> 
> The Silver Star is proving that there's a market for less-than-full-service dining, at a lower price point, while dining is still available for those who require it on a (mostly) parallel route. Important difference.


I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.


----------



## jis

I think the Diner hard product is not going away. Those cars will get used as better Lounge/Buffet/Cafe cars. What will get modified is the Diner soft product, with a goal to significantly reduce labor cost.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

JoeBas said:


> But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.


That's why I proposed the compromise of bedrooms still having to pay for meals. I'm not familiar with sleeper cars, how many roomettes and how many bedrooms are on a typical Viewliner car/ Superliner car?

A real radical idea going the opposite way: Make it so all fares, coach and sleeper have to pay for meals. The coach fares would skyrocket but possibly the bedroom fares drop (the overall cost of the diner car/staff would be passed onto more passengers). In cruise ships, all food is included for all passengers and I'm sure most passengers aren't eating all that they paid for. I'm certainly not in favor of this as I might be priced out of even a regular coach fare.

It's all a matter of where do you draw the line in the sand between requiring paying for meals and not. Do you make it all passengers must pay, only sleeper accommodation passengers must pay, only bedroom passengers must pay, or no one must pay (would mean the end of the diner then)? NARP has really pushed to keep diner car service and I imagine many of you still want it but there's a cost to it.

I have no problem with the SS being diner-less with the SM having one so passengers can have a choice. If they bring back the BL have that be a diner-less train. Perhaps some NYP-CHI passengers will be drawn to the cheaper sleepers of the new BL while the LSL will still exist for those who can't live without the Amtrak steaks.


----------



## JoeBas

crescent-zephyr said:


> I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.


And riders.


----------



## JoeBas

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> That's why I proposed the compromise of bedrooms still having to pay for meals. I'm not familiar with sleeper cars, how many roomettes and how many bedrooms are on a typical Viewliner car/ Superliner car?


This is the worst of both worlds. Viewliner has 2BR + 1H per car, Crescent for example 2 cars. Even assuming all rooms booked & everyone eats, run a diner for 12 guaranteed people?????


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

JoeBas said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.
> 
> 
> 
> And riders.
Click to expand...

I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled. I believe it was an experiment and had the experiment "failed" in the eyes of Amtrak it would not have been a permanent change.

And if you're really not going to travel on Amtrak for LD travel, what are your other options?

Fly

Take a Bus

Drive

What you won't be doing is riding another company's train because ... there isn't one. And if food is your biggest reason to choose the train over one of the other options, I'm guessing the food isn't better on buses or planes. I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I for one wouldn't want to ride the Broadway Ltd. between NYP and CHI without a Diner.

I definitely would choose the Cap, the Lake Shore or even the Card over that option but then I'm one who wouldn't ride the Silver Starvation sans Diner between NYP and MIA just to save $50!

If the old Slumber Coach model was on offer I'd consider it, and probably have Dinner and Breakfast in the Diner and skip Lunch. YMMV


----------



## jis

So the Cardinal Diner which will essentially serve the same food as the Cafe on the hypothetical Broadway or the actual Silver Star, after the menu updates go into effect would cause you to select the Cardinal over the hypothetical Broadway? Sounds quite logical. 

BTW you have to be very very flexible with your dates to find a $50 difference day between MIA and NYP.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> So the Cardinal Diner which will essentially serve the same food as the Cafe on the hypothetical Broadway or the actual Silver Star, after the menu updates go into effect would cause you to select the Cardinal over the hypothetical Broadway? Sounds quite logical.
> 
> BTW you have to be very very flexible with your dates to find a $50 difference day between MIA and NYP.


Touche!


----------



## jebr

Sounds like we could have some sort of operation to retrofit the diners for more storage space, have most things ready-to-heat (with specific instructions for heating to make a decent product) and serve people at their seats at a given time. Is there enough staff for the coaches to allow that (and would there be time for the sleeper car attendants to handle it?) At-seat or cart service seems to be the best of both worlds, especially if supplemented by a cafe car for on-demand food.

And including meals with all coach tickets should be a non-starter. Most people don't take trains from endpoint to endpoint, and many take it over either zero or one meal periods. Raising coach prices to cover the cost of a meal would almost certainly drive down business overall.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Spot on jeb!

And if India, as jis says, can feed hundreds on people on LD Trains, no reason Amtrak couldn't do it also!


----------



## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.
> 
> 
> 
> And riders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And if you're really not going to travel on Amtrak for LD travel, what are your other options?
> 
> Fly
> 
> Take a Bus
> 
> Drive
> 
> What you won't be doing is riding another company's train because ... there isn't one. And if food is your biggest reason to choose the train over one of the other options, I'm guessing the food isn't better on buses or planes. I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.
Click to expand...

The lack of a rail alternative is absolutely no excuse to accept and condone poor or substandard service on the part of Amtrak. Of course, the mere absence of a diner does not necessarily constitute poor service, though I would argue quite strongly that it is am important amenity to attract higher-fare sleeper (and perhaps business class) passengers.

If Amtrak downgraded the California Zephyr to one locomotive hauling three Amfleet coaches - no baggage, no food service, no sleepers - would that be acceptable? Obviously we have no other rail options.


----------



## JoeBas

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled. I believe it was an experiment and had the experiment "failed" in the eyes of Amtrak it would not have been a permanent change.


But again, the star is a special case, where you have the Meteor running parallel with a diner, and a train for the Cheapskates in the star. I guarantee you that you will lose Riders on the single train routes if you cut the diners. You may replace those with other riders, yes, but you will lose those individual unique riders.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you're really not going to travel on Amtrak for LD travel, what are your other options?
> 
> Fly
> 
> Take a Bus
> 
> Drive
> 
> What you won't be doing is riding another company's train because ... there isn't one. And if food is your biggest reason to choose the train over one of the other options, I'm guessing the food isn't better on buses or planes. I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.


This is a no-brainer, without the dinerss, our travel will change to fly, then drive, then train. 28 hours without real food is a non-starter. Not looking for fancy food; whatever that means, as there has not been "fancy food" on Amtrak for quite some time. But real, not junk food is important.

And as far as Amtrak is concerned, whether they're losing Riders to flying, driving, or some mythical competing train, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day all that matters is that they're losing Riders.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

JoeBas said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled. I believe it was an experiment and had the experiment "failed" in the eyes of Amtrak it would not have been a permanent change.
> 
> 
> 
> But again, the star is a special case, where you have the Meteor running parallel with a diner, and a train for the Cheapskates in the star. I guarantee you that you will lose Riders on the single train routes if you cut the diners. You may replace those with other riders, yes, but you will lose those individual unique riders.
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you're really not going to travel on Amtrak for LD travel, what are your other options?
> 
> Fly
> 
> Take a Bus
> 
> Drive
> 
> What you won't be doing is riding another company's train because ... there isn't one. And if food is your biggest reason to choose the train over one of the other options, I'm guessing the food isn't better on buses or planes. I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is a no-brainer, without the dinerss, our travel will change to fly, then drive, then train. 28 hours without real food is a non-starter. Not looking for fancy food; whatever that means, as there has not been "fancy food" on Amtrak for quite some time. But real, not junk food is important.
> 
> And as far as Amtrak is concerned, whether they're losing Riders to flying, driving, or some mythical competing train, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day all that matters is that they're losing Riders.
Click to expand...

So the real difference between choosing an overnight trip of about 15-20 hrs vs. a 2-3 hr plane ride is those great Amtrak steaks?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

JoeBas said:


> This is a no-brainer, without the dinerss, our travel will change to fly, then drive, then train. 28 hours without real food is a non-starter. Not looking for fancy food; whatever that means, as there has not been "fancy food" on Amtrak for quite some time. But real, not junk food is important.
> 
> And as far as Amtrak is concerned, whether they're losing Riders to flying, driving, or some mythical competing train, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day all that matters is that they're losing Riders.


What do the diners have to do with real food though? If Amtrak could provide "real food" (whatever that means to you) in the Cafe car, or at your seat / in your room, would that work?

I personally don't know what the solution is. If Amtrak asked me what to do I would probably suggest branding some trains "Legacy" trains (Zephyr, Empire Builder, Starlight, and Capitol). Put an extra SSL on as a Parlor Car, complete with bar tender, free wine tastings, etc. Add fancy bedding, toiletries kits, all sorts of extras and charge extremely high prices for sleepers (in demand as needed). Have a full service dining car with the china, linen table cloths, glassware, etc. with the best menu Aramark (or whoever!) can provide. Again... the cost of these meals would be high.

All of the other trains... cut them down in service. Keep a diner of some type on the Chief and Sunset, but the others could make it without any diner, Silver Star style. If the "Legacy" trains work... expand them to others such as the Silver Meteor. If they don't... well... they would have to go too I guess.


----------



## JoeBas

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> So the real difference between choosing an overnight trip of about 15-20 hrs vs. a 2-3 hr plane ride is those great Amtrak steaks?


No, the difference is nutrition. When you get older than 25, pizza rolls, packaged donuts and gas station quality hot dogs don't cut it. Sorry.

At least with flying you can eat around its short duration.


----------



## JoeBas

crescent-zephyr said:


> What do the diners have to do with real food though? If Amtrak could provide "real food" (whatever that means to you) in the Cafe car, or at your seat / in your room, would that work?


Probably. But call me a cynic, that won't happen. What WILL happen is the diners go, without any plan, so just like when whole trains are annuled for track work, no alternate (transportation) nutrition will be provided.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

JoeBas said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the real difference between choosing an overnight trip of about 15-20 hrs vs. a 2-3 hr plane ride is those great Amtrak steaks?
> 
> 
> 
> No, the difference is nutrition. When you get older than 25, pizza rolls, packaged donuts and gas station quality hot dogs don't cut it. Sorry.
> 
> At least with flying you can eat around its short duration.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute!  I'm over twice that old and still, from time to time, thrive on gas station hot dogs, sticks of mini-doughnuts and other C-Store treats!


----------



## MARC Rider

jebr said:


> Sounds like we could have some sort of operation to retrofit the diners for more storage space, have most things ready-to-heat (with specific instructions for heating to make a decent product) and serve people at their seats at a given time. Is there enough staff for the coaches to allow that (and would there be time for the sleeper car attendants to handle it?) At-seat or cart service seems to be the best of both worlds, especially if supplemented by a cafe car for on-demand food.
> 
> And including meals with all coach tickets should be a non-starter. Most people don't take trains from endpoint to endpoint, and many take it over either zero or one meal periods. Raising coach prices to cover the cost of a meal would almost certainly drive down business overall.


I agree about not including meals in coach prices (except maybe for city pairs that traverse through meal times), but I'm not sure how serving large numbers of passengers at their seats is going to be any cheaper than a diner done right. (i..e, being open longer hours to serve more people and thus increase revenue.) Somebody has to heat up all those pre-cooked meals and then carry them through the train to serve the passengers at their seats. That, I think requires more than one cafe car attendant. And I'm not sure that airline-style wheeled serving carts will be easy to roll between cars on a train going 79 mph on rough track.

By the way, the servers will also have to take money for the purchases, each of which will be different. They'll obviously need better mobile credit card processing than Amtrak currently has. This might be a case for including meals in at least some coach pairs, or selling prepaid meal plans. The whole thing sounds suspiciously like food and beverage service for domestic US coach airline passengers. (Except, if you ask me, I'd love to see airlines sell first class meal service to coach passengers on longer flights.) How is selling food in coach working out for the airlines? In fact, how is their First class food and beverage service look on their books? They might not need to satisfy Mica, but they do have to deal with activist investors.

By the way, is the plan for the Silver Star involve allowing sleeper passengers to have the SCAs bring them meals from the cafe? (and presumably handle the payments.) One of the least pleasant things about the Amtrak cafe car experience is the standing in line to wait while the one overworked attendant finally gets to you, and then wait while they put your order together. I'd gladly give a nice extra tip to and SCA who would do that for me. It might even make up for the lack of a diner for me, if the fare difference is large enough.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.


You sure can. On several family road trips, my parents located all the fancy restuarants along the route in advance and made reservations. Very, very tasty road trips.

It's a lot slower than the train. But it can be a higher-quality experience if you do it that way!

Most people aren't willing to slow down their driving trip quite *that* much.

But the train needs to have food quality at least comparable to roadhouses (Denny's or Subway or whatever) in order to properly compete with driving.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled.


There was a significant drop in ridership on the Star since the diner was pulled. It showed up quite clearly in the data. People are making excuses for it, which is understandable since there are all kinds of other reasons why the Star might have lost riders while the Meteor gained riders.
The lost revenue was slightly less than the costs cut by removing the diner, though, so shortsightedly Amtrak probably considers this a "success".

If the "TV dinners" bring the ridership back, *then* I guess you really *could* consider it a success. Honestly I'm hoping this does work.


----------



## MARC Rider

JoeBas said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the real difference between choosing an overnight trip of about 15-20 hrs vs. a 2-3 hr plane ride is those great Amtrak steaks?
> 
> 
> 
> No, the difference is nutrition. When you get older than 25, pizza rolls, packaged donuts and gas station quality hot dogs don't cut it. Sorry.
> 
> At least with flying you can eat around its short duration.
Click to expand...

The hot dog in the Amtrak cafe car is not a "gas station quality" frank. It is an authentic Hebrew National frankfurter. Unless you live near an authentic old-style kosher butcher shop or deli, you cannot find a better hot dog anywhere. And just today, on a Northeast regional cafe car, I saw with my own eyes the attendant take the frank, heat it separately from the roll, and toast the roll in a separate toaster. The only thing missing, aside from sauerkraut, is that Amtrak has eliminated the Grey Poupon mustard packs from the condiment tray. They could at least serve brown deli mustard instead of the awful yellow stuff.

Oh, and the guy who bought it paired this delectable treat with a half bottle of chardonnay, There's no accounting for taste, I guess.


----------



## JoeBas

neroden said:


> But the train needs to have food quality at least comparable to roadhouses (Denny's or Subway or whatever) in order to properly compete with driving.


You highfaluting people with your fancy vegetables and salads. Let them eat Ding Dongs!!!


----------



## JoeBas

MARC Rider said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the real difference between choosing an overnight trip of about 15-20 hrs vs. a 2-3 hr plane ride is those great Amtrak steaks?
> 
> 
> 
> No, the difference is nutrition. When you get older than 25, pizza rolls, packaged donuts and gas station quality hot dogs don't cut it. Sorry.
> 
> At least with flying you can eat around its short duration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The hot dog in the Amtrak cafe car is not a "gas station quality" frank. It is an authentic Hebrew National frankfurter. Unless you live near an authentic old-style kosher butcher shop or deli, you cannot find a better hot dog anywhere. And just today, on a Northeast regional cafe car, I saw with my own eyes the attendant take the frank, heat it separately from the roll, and toast the roll in a separate toaster. The only thing missing, aside from sauerkraut, is that Amtrak has eliminated the Grey Poupon mustard packs from the condiment tray. They could at least serve brown deli mustard instead of the awful yellow stuff.
> 
> Oh, and the guy who bought it paired this delectable treat with a half bottle of chardonnay, There's no accounting for taste, I guess.
Click to expand...

So Chardonnay comes from grapes, I GUESS that counts as a fruit/vegetable... But whatever, y'all seem determined to win the race to the bottom. Enjoy the trophy when you get there.


----------



## niemi24s

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled.


You don't _believe_? Why not expend the effort to figure out if there was or wasn't a significant drop. Or any drop at all! But because "significant" is a bit subjective, I'll simply give the percent ridership changes for the Silver Service during the two most comparable recent periods of Jul 2014 - Mar 2015 and Jul 2015 - Mar 2016:

• Silver Service down 5.1%

• Silver Star down 8.7%

• Silver Meteor down 1.0%.

There. Isn't that better than playing a hunch? ^_^


----------



## crescent-zephyr

"Authentic Hebrew national frankfurter." Do you work for Amtrak marketing? Lol!

I think the cheese and cracker tray is pretty decent, but I wouldn't call it "an authentic selection of premier cheeses"


----------



## jis

Is there any relationship between the ridership trend on Silver Star and the removal of one Coach from its consist?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

niemi24s said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't _believe_? Why not expend the effort to figure out if there was or wasn't a significant drop. Or any drop at all! But because "significant" is a bit subjective, I'll simply give the percent ridership changes for the Silver Service during the two most comparable recent periods of Jul 2014 - Mar 2015 and Jul 2015 - Mar 2016:
> 
> • Silver Service down 5.1%
> 
> • Silver Star down 8.7%
> 
> • Silver Meteor down 1.0%.
> 
> There. Isn't that better than playing a hunch? ^_^
Click to expand...

That's a lot of effort to come up with these so TY.

OK here's my next hunch that if you wish to spend the time looking through 6-7 reports to confirm or deny go ahead.

How about revenue? Could Amtrak be selling more sleeper services on the SS to make up for the fewer # of riders? I know I said ridership first but if revenue evens out I think Amtrak can deal with the lack of ridership.


----------



## niemi24s

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> OK here's my next hunch that if you wish to spend the time looking through 6-7 reports to confirm or deny go ahead.
> 
> How about revenue? Could Amtrak be selling more sleeper services on the SS to make up for the fewer # of riders? I know I said ridership first but if revenue evens out I think Amtrak can deal with the lack of ridership.


Your turn.

Think I'll go watch cartoons on TV and let the forum gourmets get their panties all in a wad over food. Sheesh.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> There was a significant drop in ridership on the Star since the diner was pulled. It showed up quite clearly in the data. People are making excuses for it, which is understandable since there are all kinds of other reasons why the Star might have lost riders while the Meteor gained riders.
> 
> The lost revenue was slightly less than the costs cut by removing the diner, though, so shortsightedly Amtrak probably considers this a "success".
> 
> If the "TV dinners" bring the ridership back, *then* I guess you really *could* consider it a success. Honestly I'm hoping this does work.


Close to a million dollars a month in decreased operating loss isn't "slightly less."


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Is there any relationship between the ridership trend on Silver Star and the removal of one Coach from its consist?


Why, yes. In recent years, when ridership drops, Amtrak has adjusted consist lengths to match!


----------



## neroden

Paulus said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was a significant drop in ridership on the Star since the diner was pulled. It showed up quite clearly in the data. People are making excuses for it, which is understandable since there are all kinds of other reasons why the Star might have lost riders while the Meteor gained riders.
> 
> The lost revenue was slightly less than the costs cut by removing the diner, though, so shortsightedly Amtrak probably considers this a "success".
> 
> If the "TV dinners" bring the ridership back, *then* I guess you really *could* consider it a success. Honestly I'm hoping this does work.
> 
> 
> 
> Close to a million dollars a month in decreased operating loss isn't "slightly less."
Click to expand...

We can argue about the definition of "slightly" for as many hours as you like, Paulus.

The way I see it, losing 8% of riders isn't good even if the bottom line improves temporarily. Trains thrive on high volumes; dropping volumes are the death spiral.

I hope the pre-plated dinners in the cafe bring the riders back. Hey, it would work for me (if I ever travelled that direction).


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any relationship between the ridership trend on Silver Star and the removal of one Coach from its consist?
> 
> 
> 
> Why, yes. In recent years, when ridership drops, Amtrak has adjusted consist lengths to match!
Click to expand...

My question had more do with which happened first. I don't know. Do you or are you just being flippant?


----------



## v v

From a visitor perspective 2 simple points.

I asked Rosie what did she think of a LD train without a diner, " it's a major part of what makes it special".

Later in the year we are using the SS and not the Meteor but only because the arrival time in Richmond is much better for our purposes. If the Meteor were to get vaguely closer to the SS's arrival time we would have been willing to compromise to get the diner option, but we are not foodies just enjoy the diner experience on Amtrak trains.

We travel to the US for several reasons. Friends, driving through a fabulous country, Greyhound buses and Amtrak. LD trains are the newest to us but are now in second place as to the reason to travel to the US, eating reasonable food seated comfortably with the possibility of meeting new people is a large part of that.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

v v said:


> From a visitor perspective 2 simple points.
> 
> I asked Rosie what did she think of a LD train without a diner, " it's a major part of what makes it special".
> 
> Later in the year we are using the SS and not the Meteor but only because the arrival time in Richmond is much better for our purposes. If the Meteor were to get vaguely closer to the SS's arrival time we would have been willing to compromise to get the diner option, but we are not foodies just enjoy the diner experience on Amtrak trains.
> 
> We travel to the US for several reasons. Friends, driving through a fabulous country, Greyhound buses and Amtrak. LD trains are the newest to us but are now in second place as to the reason to travel to the US, eating reasonable food seated comfortably with the possibility of meeting new people is a large part of that.


I'm with ya on that! When I traveled by Amtrak, I had a great experience! Only, I wish the food in the diner (excluding the cafe car) could be better.


----------



## PRR 60

The removal of the Silver Star diner was aimed at sleeper class riders. A look at the sleeper ridership seems to suggest that the change is working.

10/1/15 to 2/29/16 (compared to the same period the prior year

Silver Star: Sleeper ridership up 5.6% (13,694 compared to 12,970)

Silver Meteor: Sleeper ridership down 6.5% (16,799 compared to 17,960)

This supports the claims by Amtrak management that the Silver Star sleeper occupancy rate has risen into the mid-80's since the changes was made.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?

Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.

I mean, is it the same way on the Superliner trains?


----------



## jis

Yes.Food is included in the Sleeper Room charge on all LD trains Superliner or otherwise, except on the Silver Star.


----------



## keelhauled

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?


The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.



> Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.


There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to pay at some point.



> I mean, is it the same way on the Superliner trains?


Yes.


----------



## keelhauled

The most recent Star menu with the new entrees has been posted.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

keelhauled said:


> The most recent Star menu with the new entrees has been posted.


*National Cafe Prices...*




*New Silver Star Prices...*




I suppose we should expect prices to keep increasing, and probably expect quality to continue decreasing, until Amtrak can "break even" on food and beverage services.



niemi24s said:


> Think I'll go watch cartoons on TV and let the forum gourmets get their panties all in a wad over food. Sheesh.


*gourmands


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

keelhauled said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
> 
> 
> 
> Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to pay at some point.
Click to expand...

Right. It's just, even coach passengers eat in the diner, but how come you have to pay more for a sleeper but not a coach seat just because of the diner? I mean, you pay for meals separately from your ticket, correct?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. *Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket *instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
> 
> 
> 
> Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to pay at some point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. It's just, even coach passengers eat in the diner, but how come you have to pay more for a sleeper but not a coach seat just because of the diner? I mean, you pay for meals separately from your ticket, correct?
Click to expand...

See the bolded. THE SLEEPER PRICE INCLUDES THE COST OF MEALS!!!


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
> 
> 
> 
> Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to pay at some point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. It's just, even coach passengers eat in the diner, but how come you have to pay more for a sleeper but not a coach seat just because of the diner? I mean, you pay for meals separately from your ticket, correct?
Click to expand...

The sleeper fare includes food on all but the star.


----------



## ScouseAndy

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
> 
> 
> 
> Paying more for a sleeper just to get diner meals makes no sense in my opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to pay at some point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. It's just, even coach passengers eat in the diner, but how come you have to pay more for a sleeper but not a coach seat just because of the diner? I mean, you pay for meals separately from your ticket, correct?
Click to expand...

Sleeper class get meals included with their tickets with the exception of the Stavation


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Amtrak's _Silver Starvation_ has a nice ring to it.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

keelhauled said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
Click to expand...

Philly to Orlando, Leaving Fri. May 27, Roomette fare. From Amtrak website

SS: $360

SM: $448

Difference: $88

I'm guessing on the SM with a 4:58pm - 12:49pm schedule you'd be entitled to dinner on the 27th and breakfast and lunch on the 28th.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/815/302/Silver-Meteor-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf

Examples of meals:

Dinner:

Steak $24.75

Salad: $3

Soft Drink/Bottled Water: $2.25

Ice Cream: $4.25

Breakfast:

Scrambled Eggs $7.50

Bacon: $3.75

Milk, Coffee, Tea, Juice $2.00

Lunch:

Angus Burger $11.50

Cheese $1.00

Bacon $2.50

Soft Drink/Bottled Water: $2.25

Total: $64.75 ($23.25 less than what you paid extra to ride the SM).

I think my $64.75 is for three pretty good meals (including the steak which is already the highest priced entree) so I'd imagine the extra charge for the meals vs. the SS is more than they are worth (using Amtrak prices). So assuming the SS did have a diner and you could just pay for the room and meals separately it would be cheaper to take a SS roomette + the meals I listed than taking a SM roomette with the same meals (unless you can find $23.25 worth of extra food). In this example, you can argue you are paying more for the SM room than the SS room. Of course this is just an example for the day and menus used.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the heck is it, that just because a train has a diner on it, that sleeping car accommodations are more expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of the diner's revenue comes from the transfer of sleeper revenue to the diner account. Presumably the sleeper is priced on the assumption that each passenger will eat three meals in the diner, and you effectively pay for them when you purchase the ticket instead of out of pocket when you actually eat, and then after the fact based on the records of what you actually ate, the appropriate money is transferred between lines in the records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Philly to Orlando, Leaving Fri. May 27, Roomette fare. From Amtrak website
> 
> SS: $360
> 
> SM: $448
> 
> Difference: $88
> 
> I'm guessing on the SM with a 4:58pm - 12:49pm schedule you'd be entitled to dinner on the 27th and breakfast and lunch on the 28th.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/815/302/Silver-Meteor-Dining-Car-Menu-0416.pdf
> 
> Examples of meals:
> 
> Dinner:
> 
> Steak $24.75
> 
> Salad: $3
> 
> Soft Drink/Bottled Water: $2.25
> 
> Ice Cream: $4.25
> 
> Breakfast:
> 
> Scrambled Eggs $7.50
> 
> Bacon: $3.75
> 
> Milk, Coffee, Tea, Juice $2.00
> 
> Lunch:
> 
> Angus Burger $11.50
> 
> Cheese $1.00
> 
> Bacon $2.50
> 
> Soft Drink/Bottled Water: $2.25
> 
> Total: $64.75 ($23.25 less than what you paid extra to ride the SM).
> 
> I think my $64.75 is for three pretty good meals (including the steak which is already the highest priced entree) so I'd imagine the extra charge for the meals vs. the SS is more than they are worth (using Amtrak prices). So assuming the SS did have a diner and you could just pay for the room and meals separately it would be cheaper to take a SS roomette + the meals I listed than taking a SM roomette with the same meals (unless you can find $23.25 worth of extra food). In this example, you can argue you are paying more for the SM room than the SS room. Of course this is just an example for the day and menus used.
Click to expand...

How about $64.75 times 2 (room charge is priced at 2 people in the room even if there is only one person). $129.50.


----------



## Palmetto

AmtrakBlue said:


> The wheels of the bus train go round and round


Enuf said.


----------



## dlagrua

I would venture to say that *most* train travelers that go in sleeper class don't take that many overnight LD trips per year. As such it should not be a terrible burden paying the price differential for food service. Having breakfast, lunch and or dinner in the dining car also makes the trip more enjoyable, offers a change of scenery and the trip appear shorter. It can also lead to some interesting discussion with folks at meal time. When you travel by plane you seldom see people congregating, talking and sharing friendship. On a train the dining and sightseer lounge cars offer an opportunity for social interaction and this provides opportunity for a more enjoyable trip . On an overnight train trip the meal service is a requirement for our travel.


----------



## v v

Well put dlagrua


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I agree with dlagrua, too. And on the Viewliners, there is no sightseer lounge, so the dining car is the only place to socialize outside of the café car (and, in my experience, at least on the Northeast Regionals, nobody in the café car wants to talk with anyone else).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

dlagrua said:


> I would venture to say that *most* train travelers that go in sleeper class don't take that many overnight LD trips per year. As such it should not be a terrible burden paying the price differential for food service.


But the current price difference does not cover the food service costs... that's why we are having this discussion in the first place. So what's the solution? Amtrak charges even more for sleeping car passengers to fully cover the dining car expenses? Amtrak continues to lose money on dining car service? Or Amtrak tries to cut food service costs while still supplying basic food service (AKA "the cafe").

It's a lose lose scenario for Amtrak and the passengers.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would venture to say that *most* train travelers that go in sleeper class don't take that many overnight LD trips per year. As such it should not be a terrible burden paying the price differential for food service.
> 
> 
> 
> But the current price difference does not cover the food service costs... that's why we are having this discussion in the first place. So what's the solution? Amtrak charges even more for sleeping car passengers to fully cover the dining car expenses? Amtrak continues to lose money on dining car service? Or Amtrak tries to cut food service costs while still supplying basic food service (AKA "the cafe").
> 
> It's a lose lose scenario for Amtrak and the passengers.
Click to expand...

There is another option. They could spin off the dining car ops to a separate company, let's call it the "Fred Harvey Company," (although I think that Xanterra might have a word or two about using that particular name). That company can run the dining cars totally free from congressional micromanagement. Heck, if you had the right culinary geniuses, the dining car might be such a hit that people will take shorter rides on the train just to eat in the dining car, thus increasing revenue for Amtrak. (After all, aren't there businesses called "dinner trains" that seems to be able to stay in business?) Amtrak could continue to run the cafes to provide basic food services. And maybe instead of one large catering corporation, they'd franchise dining car operations on individual trains to smaller businesses that work on lower overheads. We could have the "Chef Anthony Bourdain Silver Meteor" on the one hand and the "Chef Jose Andres Capitol Limited" on the other.


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## jis

Just as a case study of such, Indian Railways has been doing such contracting out. Only certain trains have Indian Railways' own IRCTC provided food service, while others are contracted out. Unfortunately so far the experience has been a mixed bag with some contractor services being at par or better than IRCTC while others are far worse. They have not quite figured out how to do proper quality control of the contractors.


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## jis

MARC Rider said:


> There is another option. They could spin off the dining car ops to a separate company, let's call it the "Fred Harvey Company," (although I think that Xanterra might have a word or two about using that particular name). That company can run the dining cars totally free from congressional micromanagement. Heck, if you had the right culinary geniuses, the dining car might be such a hit that people will take shorter rides on the train just to eat in the dining car, thus increasing revenue for Amtrak. (After all, aren't there businesses called "dinner trains" that seems to be able to stay in business?) Amtrak could continue to run the cafes to provide basic food services. And maybe instead of one large catering corporation, they'd franchise dining car operations on individual trains to smaller businesses that work on lower overheads. We could have the "Chef Anthony Bourdain Silver Meteor" on the one hand. and the "Chef Jose Andres Capitol Limited" on the other.


They could also make significant advances in the technology of cloning Chefs to get four copies of Chef Bourdain .... just kidding. Then look at all the opportunities of including information on which Chef will be on which train on which days of the month. Now if that does not justify printing National Timetables again, I don;t know what possibly will. 

Please don;t take what I am saying seriously. Just having a little fun imagining how things could be.


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## crescent-zephyr

Contracting out is another option I suppose... but I'm not sure how many companies would want it. Iowa Pacific would be a good candidate, since they have proven they know how to accomplish it.

I also can't imagine that anyone who did become the contractor, would improve the food quality much. They would be looking at ways to serve food the most economical way possible as well.. and that would involve alot of pre-made food.

Again... if a company like Iowa Pacific, who actually cares about the heritage of dining cars and the quality of the product were to be involved... MAYBE. But a big company like Xantera, or a chain restaurant?


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## Bob Dylan

It wasn't but a couple of years ago that we were discussing here on AU how much the food had improved in the Diners on Amtrak LD Trains!

And IMHO some Chain restuarants turn out much better meals at lower prices than the current bland, uninspired fare being served in the Diners!


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Contracting out is another option I suppose... but I'm not sure how many companies would want it. Iowa Pacific would be a good candidate, since they have proven they know how to accomplish it.
> 
> I also can't imagine that anyone who did become the contractor, would improve the food quality much. They would be looking at ways to serve food the most economical way possible as well.. and that would involve alot of pre-made food.
> 
> Again... if a company like Iowa Pacific, who actually cares about the heritage of dining cars and the quality of the product were to be involved... MAYBE. But a big company like Xantera, or a chain restaurant?


There are restaurateurs who provide very good food in small restaurants and are financially successful. Maybe the problem is that the catering contractors/chain restaurants everyone looks at first are used to working at a different scale, and also have unreasonable expectations of profit, executive pay, and overhead. I've never seen detailed (or even not so detailed) financial numbers for either the Amtrak Food and Beverage as a whole, or a possible business plan for a railroad dining car. It seems like it should be a decent business proposition. A captive audience of several hundred people for something they need, and for which eating in the dining car is part of the train-ride experience.


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## jis

The problem is labor cost in a railroad restaurant car apparently. No one is willing to work under the conditions prevailing a railroad restaurant car operating on a train over two or three days for the pay grades that prevail in on ground restaurants. apparently.


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## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> It wasn't but a couple of years ago that we were discussing here on AU how much the food had improved in the Diners on Amtrak LD Trains!


Even I had to admit things were improving substantially, and I was honestly glad to do so, especially in the case of Amtrak's _Chef Inspired_ meals. Each time they added something new on the Chef Inspired list I found myself more and more eager to try it. And then the Mica/Shuster/Boardman cuts started rolling down the pipe and it all went to crap again. In fact I'd say it's the worst I've seen in many years now.



Bob Dylan said:


> IMHO some Chain restuarants turn out much better meals at lower prices than the current bland, uninspired fare being served in the Diners!


I know we often compare Amtrak to Applebees or Chilis as a matter of habit but Amtrak meals today are so bland and stale that they seem to have more in common with retirement home meals than a conventional sit down restaurant. Even bottom rung restaurant chains like Denny's and Subway are far more appetizing than Amtrak's precooked frozen meat puck hamburgers or their limp and tasteless frozen vegetable medley.



jis said:


> The problem is labor cost in a railroad restaurant car apparently. No one is willing to work under the conditions prevailing a railroad restaurant car operating on a train over two or three days for the pay grades that prevail in on ground restaurants. apparently.


Wasn't there a plan to employ Subway (or a similar chain) as part of a test run on at least one Amtrak route until the union balked at the idea? I'm not anti-union myself, but if this is the very best quality they can manage then I would hope they would be willing to get out of the way and give someone else a try.


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## jis

Yes DA. That was on the Empire Corridor. Lasted but a few days if that.


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## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is labor cost in a railroad restaurant car apparently. No one is willing to work under the conditions prevailing a railroad restaurant car operating on a train over two or three days for the pay grades that prevail in on ground restaurants. apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't there a plan to employ Subway (or a similar chain) as part of a test run on at least one Amtrak route until the union balked at the idea? I'm not anti-union myself, but if this is the very best quality they can manage then I would hope they would be willing to get out of the way and give someone else a try.
Click to expand...

There was... on a corridor run. (I think Empire for some reason?). If you want to look at that example look at the Downeaster, where the state (?) supplies the staff for the cafe car. Pretty good menu, lots of local selections. It doesn't handle the same volume as some Amtrak trains but it appears to work pretty well. The Sandwich and local candy I had on board for lunch was WAY better than the traditional Cafe offerings.

The thing is.. that's corridor trains. The trains are stocked and staffed out of one location. And at the end of the day, the employees go home, just like a "normal" job.

Long distance dining cars? Certainly some unique challenges. As I mentioned... Iowa Pacific has done a pretty good job. The Hoosier State, while still a corridor type train, has deadhead crew moves, so the overnighting is part of the job.


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## jis

The need for overnight arises in case of Hoosier State because it is not daily. If it were daily there would be no need for overnight. Still,they don;t have to serve and sleep on the train overnight, like they would have to if they were the OBS on a true LD train.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> The need for overnight arises in case of Hoosier State because it is not daily. If it were daily there would be no need for overnight. Still,they don;t have to serve and sleep on the train overnight, like they would have to if they were the OBS on a true LD train.


But.. Iowa Pacific has proven that they can handle that as well. (serving and over-night on the train as was the case with Pullman Rail Journeys).


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## jis

Although they have not quite proved that they can do it profitably at a price point that would work for Amtrak passengers yet. So the jury is still out.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Although they have not quite proved that they can do it profitably at a price point that would work for Amtrak passengers yet. So the jury is still out.


Do you think anyone can? Profit is just about impossible in this game... I'm suggesting that Iowa Pacific can provide it for less of a loss than Amtrak, and that's just because they are non-union really. Yes the quality would be better as well... and perhaps over time a few more coach passengers would pay to eat in the diner if they heard the food and service was better.

Better service could also improve upsells (more alcohol and more dessert sales).

But I still think as a whole, factoring in all costs, it's gonna lose money. The comissary staffing, hotels, transportation to and from hotels, loading and unloading stock, delivery fees of stock, actual maintenance of the dining car ( a "non-revenue" car) etc.


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## jis

On the labor cost front I suspect you are possibly correct. As for the rest I have really no way of knowing since neither IP nor Amtrak really supply enough details in an open fashion to figure it out.

At the end of the day the issue will still be how much one is willing to spend on F&B and I have no clue what the right number should be either. The answers to this conundrum are not that easy to come by.


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## neroden

I have to basically agree with everything Devil's Advocate said.  I couldn't say it better.


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## Paulus




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## CSXfoamer1997

This is for the Silver Star.

Is this the old menu or is the Silver Star bringing back the diner?

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=B4BD42FAAADA4451FF7B4807F7132B6DF49DC7C6169D01BC&EV=2


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## PRR 60

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> This is for the Silver Star.
> 
> Is this the old menu or is the Silver Star bringing back the diner?
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=B4BD42FAAADA4451FF7B4807F7132B6DF49DC7C6169D01BC&EV=2


Yes. No.


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