# Various payment systems used by transit agencies



## BCL (Oct 11, 2022)

I guess a lot of different transit agencies have gone to this over the years, including rail transit (not sure how it fits into a neat category). I suppose the idea is that the vehicle operator isn't necessarily the gatekeeper, especially where getting on at another door may make it easier to board, but where fare inspectors may go around to ask for proof of fare payment.

Quite a few agencies have gone primarily to fare cards using NFC communications (Clipper here in the Bay Area)(. I've been checked for proof of payment where fare inspectors will have a reader. On SMART in Sonoma-Marin there was one riding with each train we rode. I have yet to encounter one on a bus, but San Francisco's MUNI does that. They have a hybrid system with buses, cable cars, street cars, and light rail. And the light rail also serves as street cars where the stations have gates that are primarily used with fare cards or NFC communications, but also with station agents to handle non-electronic proof of payment. They have normal paper tickets/receipts, but also scratch-off tourist passes. But as a street car, the vehicle operator handles the farebox. They also have disposable paper versions of NFC fare cards. There was one really weird thing though. I don't like their farebox receipts. They're printed rather faintly, and I've seen rubbing of it where it faded quickly. I had one in my back pocket for a month and it was hard to read, although it had expired a while ago. They even have a few streetcar stops with these machine that look like street parking machines that spit out a receipt to place on the dash. But they were programmed for transit tickets, day passes, etc. I tried that the last time I was in San Francisco hoping that maybe they'd last longer than the ones that fareboxes put out. And the paper they used was clearly for parking, as it said "PARKING TICKET" on the side.

This is an image of the old paper transfer, which has been replaced with the ticket on the right.







Anything really unusual out there?


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## west point (Oct 11, 2022)

Thought. Have whatever proof of payment is verified to install sensors at vehicle doors or whever payment is to be shown. RFID might be one way. If no payment or no card sensed then warning to violator and a fare collector. Exiting readers for riders if necessary can verify enough fare paid or deduct fare for distance travelled.

Now expect that we will have big brother complainers. If so buy an anomyous ticket.


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## Willbridge (Oct 11, 2022)

It's amazing how many systems there are at present. When we introduced Proof of Payment to North America in 1980 Edmonton's was a hybrid system, as our buses had traditional PAYE collection and the LRT had turnstiles and (bored) fare collectors in booths. City council insisted that we leave the turnstiles in place for the failure predicted by cynics, but from that evolved the "Fare Paid Area" to keep subway platforms from becoming homeless/panhandler areas.

Everything was on paper or card stock then (see attached ad). The most innovative systems now, as in Portland, Oregon for example, have a card that charges per ride, but caps the maximum at the monthly pass rate.

Regarding West Point's suggestion, I was in favor of that, or tap-on/tap-off, for Denver, but I had too much going on to be able to spend time promoting the ideas. An obsolete system was selected by inexperienced staff and now it's being replaced.

Ten-ride tickets were introduced when inflation stuffed fareboxes and passengers had to fool with change.


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## Brian Battuello (Oct 12, 2022)

Man, that old MUNI transfer brings back memories...


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## MARC Rider (Oct 12, 2022)

What I would like to see would be a uniform standard for fare media so that one could use one's hometown fare card or account when traveling. Of course, you'd have to buy fares as charged by the system you're visiting, but you wouldn't end up with your wallet cluttered with farecards from around the country. 

Smartphone fare apps are OK, but they have a problem in that they will log you off fairly frequently, and I can never remember all of my passwords. I have this problem mostly when I'm visiting the New York area and want to ride the LIRR, Metro-North, or NJT. I also occasionally have the problem with the Amtrak app, especially when I haven't used it for a while and want to buy a ticket.


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## BCL (Oct 12, 2022)

west point said:


> Thought. Have whatever proof of payment is verified to install sensors at vehicle doors or whever payment is to be shown. RFID might be one way. If no payment or no card sensed then warning to violator and a fare collector. Exiting readers for riders if necessary can verify enough fare paid or deduct fare for distance travelled.
> 
> Now expect that we will have big brother complainers. If so buy an anomyous ticket.



San Francisco MUNI has that on their buses, streetcars and light rail (when it's not operating as a subway train). They have readers at all doors. However. they still have paper receipts as well as the Clipper fare card. And of course the passports that include cable car rides. But the scratch off to mark the first day is a little bit different. The fare inspector needs to look closely at it and then figure if it's within a multi-day window. But they also have those light rail stations where a station agent has to let someone in. It was kind of annoying last weekend when I had a day pass, but I found one set of gates where the station agent was taking a break (or it wasn't staffed). But they have fare inspectors who ride around and then issue citations to those who can't provide proof of fare.






Caltrain now has proof of fare as a requirement when they used to operate with conductors who also handled tickets. They used to have traditional train tickets sold at stations where the station agent used a punch to mark the fare type and endpoints. But if a station was closed or didn't have a way to buy tickets (like the new ticket machines) one could buy a ticket on the train. I'd seen a few fare inspectors who checked my Clipper card to see that it was tagged. But I'd also seen a few who were caught without tickets, and the inspector said they could get off at the next station and see if they could buy a ticket in time to get back on, or just wait for the next train. Or otherwise I suppose he could have issued a citation and then ejected the passenger.

Sonoma-Marin Rail Transit doesn't have any kind of paper ticket. They only allow riding using the Clipper fare card (with a tag on, tag off) or with a ticket purchased with their app. But it was really odd. I have the feeling that a fare inspector rides on every train.


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## joelkfla (Oct 12, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> View attachment 29889


 Why is the excited dude wearing a garter?


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## flitcraft (Oct 12, 2022)

Seattle has an easy system--don't bother checking for fares at all. We pay because it's the right thing to do, but hardly anyone seems to. This came in during the early days of the pandemic, and has continued till just recently. Now they are going to use employees to spot check fares, but if they catch someone, the response is simply to remind them that they are supposed to be paying a fare. That'll work out well.  Pre-pandemic they simply escorted the scofflaw off at the next stop, but of course, they almost certainly just jumped aboard the next train or streetcar!

No wonder the connecting streetcar line is years behind schedule, assuming it ever gets built.


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## BCL (Oct 12, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Everything was on paper or card stock then (see attached ad). The most innovative systems now, as in Portland, Oregon for example, have a card that charges per ride, but caps the maximum at the monthly pass rate.



Santa Clara County's VTA has a daily cap now that's tied into the Clipper fare card system. However, they also have a 2 hour window only that's good for their light rail, as well as an 8-hour light-rail-only pass. I remember using them with Clipper and I used it like San Francisco MUNI and got charged for another fare when I tagged it again. What I was supposed to do was tag it once for the full 2 hours and then tag again after the 2 hours was up. It was a mess and I think they fixed it.

San Francisco Municipal Railway (aka MUNI) doesn't have a daily cap. One can buy a (no cable car) day pass either at the farebox or at a street car station using repurposed pay-parking machines. But the receipt is proof of fare. I usually put it in a pocket as vehicle operators never ask to see them; I have yet to encounter a fare inspector. But they don't sell day passes at MUNI Metro (subway) stations for whatever reason. Their fare machines only have those temporary Clipper cards or can add cash value or monthly passes to Clipper cards. Last time I rode MUNI my first trip started at a Metro station, but I had to go out to a streetcar station to buy my day pass.

MUNI has way too many forms of tickets/passes:

Clipper - either cash value deducted or monthly pass. There's a discount for using Clipper on anything except a cable car. Cable cars don't have machines - the conductor carries a handheld machine.






Clipper (paper) - either one-way or round-trip. The 120 minute time starts when one tags on a MUNI Clipper machine. Once the 120 minutes is up, the second fare can be used. I think they're valid for 60 days and can be purchased in advance. I can't find a photo of an actual ticket, but this is one of the machines, and it has an example image on the screen.






Farebox cash - There's a 50 cent surcharge compared to Clipper, as well as day passes. I think after 8 PM it would also be good until 3 AM. It generates a cardstock receipt without any electronics. It looks a lot more interesting on the other side. This is the cleanest looking print I've seen. All the ones I've gotten looked faded.






Pay parking style tickets. I can't find a photo online. Maybe I can post a photo of the one I used last weekend.

Single/multiday Passports - including cable cars using a scratch off for the initial day of use. San Francisco CityPASS used to come with a 7-day Passport, but apparently that's been discontinued.






MuniMobile app. One can buy all sorts of tickets and passes.


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## PaTrainFan (Oct 12, 2022)

I recently bought all-day passes (twice) in Portland and in Seattle and was never once asked for proof of payment. Wonder how much sense it really makes and how much revenue they lose.


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## pennyk (Oct 12, 2022)

I traveled on SunRail from Orlando to Sanford roundtrip last week and the trains were not crowded. I was fare checked twice northbound and once southbound. I was pleased (and a bit surprised) to show my SunRail card (properly tapped).


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## Willbridge (Oct 12, 2022)

BCL said:


> Sonoma-Marin Rail Transit doesn't have any kind of paper ticket. They only allow riding using the Clipper fare card (with a tag on, tag off) or with a ticket purchased with their app. But it was really odd. I have the feeling that a fare inspector rides on every train.


I think that SMART is a railway rather than a transit line, so the FRA requires a two-person crew. That's the case on our Denver commuter rail A, B, G, and N-Lines. On those lines the second person is a security guard who checks fares.


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## BCL (Oct 13, 2022)

With a system like San Francisco MUNI, all the options can be really confusing. Those pay parking style machines could sell one-way tickets/receipts, but then the 120 minutes start as soon as the machine spits out the receipt. I'm not sure what incentive a passenger has to get that, other than they take credit cards and fareboxes only take cash.

I've also been to San Francisco around big events where they were running extra service. The F-line is usually a street car and along The Embarcadero it normally runs on rail lines over cobblestones. But sometimes they run buses, and the buses ride in the streetcar are on the cobblestones. And I've seen it where the driver said everyone just get on and don't worry about the fare. I saw the same after a music festival in Golden Gate Park, where the driver just said to get on and stopped anyone trying to pay. I think they had an order to not have fare inspectors on those lines.


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## BCL (Oct 13, 2022)

Brian Battuello said:


> Man, that old MUNI transfer brings back memories...



I remember the days when there was officially a 90 minute transfer window, but some vehicle operators would set the transfer tear-off mount well in advance so it didn't need to be adjusted. I received some that were still valid for 6 hours. Some would just hand out an all day transfer.

I do remember several times I just got an a supposed all-day transfer on an event day, where MUNI employees would set up a table inside the BART fare gates, for the price of a one-way fare. Once I used it and tried using it all day, but at a MUNI Metro station the station agent insisted that I hand it over and he had the machine issue a transfer/receipt that was only good for 90 minutes. That was back in the day when the gates actually took coins/tokens and one could pay an adult fare and it spit out a transfer/receipt. When I was younger, one had to tell the station agent about it to pay the youth fare. The agent would press a button and it would accept the youth fare and spit out a transfer (the exact same as for an adult). And I remember when that fare was as cheap as 5 cents.






And the tokens were interesting. I think they were still valid (on all fareboxes and gates) up to the point where they switched over to Clipper-only gates.


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## BCL (Oct 14, 2022)

BCL said:


> I remember the days when there was officially a 90 minute transfer window, but some vehicle operators would set the transfer tear-off mount well in advance so it didn't need to be adjusted. I received some that were still valid for 6 hours. Some would just hand out an all day transfer.
> 
> I do remember several times I just got an a supposed all-day transfer on an event day, where MUNI employees would set up a table inside the BART fare gates, for the price of a one-way fare. Once I used it and tried using it all day, but at a MUNI Metro station the station agent insisted that I hand it over and he had the machine issue a transfer/receipt that was only good for 90 minutes. That was back in the day when the gates actually took coins/tokens and one could pay an adult fare and it spit out a transfer/receipt. When I was younger, one had to tell the station agent about it to pay the youth fare. The agent would press a button and it would accept the youth fare and spit out a transfer (the exact same as for an adult). And I remember when that fare was as cheap as 5 cents.
> 
> ...



Did a little research, and the tokens are still valid. At MUNI Metro stations, they just need to be used at a ticket machine and apparently the fireboxes recognize them.






Single Ride - Discount


A single ride fare on Muni is good for 120 minutes of travel, whether it be on a single route or a trip with multiple transfers across buses and light rail. You can save $0.25 per trip by paying with a Clipper® Card or MuniMobile®. Eligible Seniors must apply for and receive a Clipper card...




www.sfmta.com



Tokens​Tokens are only available to non-profit/government organizations for client services. If you have tokens previously purchased, they are still valid for travel. No surcharge is required. Customers paying with tokens at Muni Metro light rail stations must purchase a Limited Use Ticket from a Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) located outside of the faregates. Tokens are accepted at the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM). Tap the ticket to the faregate reader for access.​​Contact [email protected] for more information on how to purchase tokens.​


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## BCL (Nov 14, 2022)

BCL said:


> San Francisco MUNI has that on their buses, streetcars and light rail (when it's not operating as a subway train). They have readers at all doors. However. they still have paper receipts as well as the Clipper fare card. And of course the passports that include cable car rides. But the scratch off to mark the first day is a little bit different. The fare inspector needs to look closely at it and then figure if it's within a multi-day window. But they also have those light rail stations where a station agent has to let someone in. It was kind of annoying last weekend when I had a day pass, but I found one set of gates where the station agent was taking a break (or it wasn't staffed). But they have fare inspectors who ride around and then issue citations to those who can't provide proof of fare.



Just wanted to clarify that after one trip where I couldn't find a station agent at a MUNI Metro station to let me in, a non station agent employee told me to just walk right through the wide gate closest to the station agent booth. The sign on the gate mentions it, but I can't find a closeup photo of one. Not sure why station agents didn't say that when I previously asked them to open the gate for me, where they just pressed a button to get it to open. Apparently it doesn't have to check for a Clipper card (permanent or paper) but just opens when one stands there long enough. It's a proof of payment system, so theoretically one could be checked later by a fare inspector.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 15, 2022)

On a recent trip to Dublin we used the LUAS tram a few times. There were 2 ways of paying. You could buy a LEAP card which is a stored fare card that can be used on the trams, buses, or DART regional rail within the boundaries of the Dublin short-hop zone. With the card you validated it at the stop before you got on then again when you got off, as the fare varied by distance. Alternatively you could buy a ticket at a ticket machine located at each stop. That is what we did as we were only using the LUAS and only for a couple of trips. 

On one trip I did see a roving inspector who checked that passengers had valid tickets. He carried a portable ticket machine with him and if you had "forgotten" to buy a ticket you could buy one on the spot. They seemed to be pretty lenient about letting you do that rather than charging you with fare evasion.



In the picture above, taken at Heuston station on the Red line, the validator for the LEAP card is that blue thing on the pole. Unfortunately I didn't think to get a picture of a ticket machine.


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## BCL (Nov 15, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> On a recent trip to Dublin we used the LUAS tram a few times. There were 2 ways of paying. You could buy a LEAP card which is a stored fare card that can be used on the trams, buses, or DART regional rail within the boundaries of the Dublin short-hop zone. With the card you validated it at the stop before you got on then again when you got off, as the fare varied by distance. Alternatively you could buy a ticket at a ticket machine located at each stop. That is what we did as we were only using the LUAS and only for a couple of trips.
> 
> On one trip I did see a roving inspector who checked that passengers had valid tickets. He carried a portable ticket machine with him and if you had "forgotten" to buy a ticket you could buy one on the spot. They seemed to be pretty lenient about letting you do that rather than charging you with fare evasion.
> 
> ...





Can't be sure who makes the equipment. I've noticed that a lot of the newer ones are from Cubic Transportation Systems. Especially the shiny tower of stainless steel, as compared to previous types that were small and could be placed on a mount. They made the newest BART fare gates and ticket vending machines about two decades ago, but then retrofitted them for Clipper.


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