# Timetables/Flag Stops



## PRR 60 (Feb 21, 2022)

It is once again possible to download PDF printable timetables for a specific train, route or range of dates. The feature is accessed from the “Schedules” tab of Amtrak.com.


On the Amtrak home page, click "Schedules" and enter the desired start and end stations and the date of travel (or range of dates up to a week). Click "Find Trains."
The train or trains available for that station pair and date(s) will display
Next to the departure date(s) is icon with nine small boxes. Click on that and a choice is offered to print either one train’s schedule (if a train is selected from the list) or the full schedule of all trains. That opens a new bowser tab that shows a PDF timetable with all stops from the selected start to the selected end station that can be downloaded or printed. 
The good:

Very clean layout
Train amenities shown when a single-train timetable is printed
Accurate for the date selected (for example: timetable for overnight trains departing March 12 show adjusted times after daylight time kicks in at 2am on March 13).
Days of operation shown (even when single date selected)
Thruway bus service shown when start or end station requires (for example: service to or from San Francisco).
The not so good

Station services such as checked baggage not shown
No mileages
Thruway bus availability not shown unless selected end points require it
The feature is not obvious on the schedules page
It’s an improvement over nothing, but still lacking compared to the prior route and system timetables.


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## John Bobinyec (Feb 21, 2022)

I would suggest as an alternative ASM Schedules Summary.

jb


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## TinCan782 (Feb 21, 2022)

They need to incorporate (among other things) displaying the entire route in a single view/page. 
Not just 10 stations at a time like it is now.


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## jis (Feb 21, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> They need to incorporate (among other things) displaying the entire route in a single view/page.
> Not just 10 stations at a time like it is now.


Did you try following @PRR 60 's instructions to get a PDF timetable? They do display all pages not just one. You scroll through the PDF document like you would in a printed timetable. Or if you wish you can print it.

Incidentally the current implementation has lots of rough edges "otherwise known as misfeatures or bugs" that hopefully will get fixed eventually. But as far as it works, it is certainly a step in the right direction IMHO.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 21, 2022)

Why should I spend money using my paper and my ink when Amtrak ought to be doing this in order to encourage possible customers to use their services?


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## jis (Feb 21, 2022)

Dakota 400 said:


> Why should I spend money using my paper and my ink when Amtrak ought to be doing this in order to encourage possible customers to use their services?


You don’t have to print it. One can view any pdf document on a screen  And scroll every which way through them.

Though I still think a printed train specific leaflet at least for Sleeper passengers is a nice touch, even if they insist a printed national timetable is a bridge too far. Printed route specific timetables are incredibly useful, even if one insists on running a second rate first class service.


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## denmarks (Feb 21, 2022)

Why hide the print option under the 9 square symbol?


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## TinCan782 (Feb 21, 2022)

jis said:


> Did you try following @PRR 60 's instructions to get a PDF timetable? They do display all pages not just one. You scroll through the PDF document like you would in a printed timetable. Or if you wish you can print it.
> 
> Incidentally the current implementation has lots of rough edges "otherwise known as misfeatures or bugs" that hopefully will get fixed eventually. But as far as it works, it is certainly a step in the right direction IMHO.


Well, that is an improvement but, why is this print option so "obvious". Never would have noticed if you hadn't re-directed me to the original post. Thanks. 

Noticed the Coast Starlight schedule takes two pages; the older traditional schedule fit on a single side (page) of the schedule.


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## TinCan782 (Feb 21, 2022)

denmarks said:


> Why hide the print option under the 9 square symbol?


YES!


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## jis (Feb 21, 2022)

As I said, it needs a lot of work. I was able to break it in many ways in addition to it having a hopelessly brain dead user interface.

The Schedule page at present is broken in many spectacular ways, and the print feature has just been layered on top of the rest of the crud. If I was running an IT projects I would not consider this to be ready to present to customers. But clearly I am a fossil from a more timid fossil age when we took pride in stuff working right before sending them out to our customers.


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## joelkfla (Feb 21, 2022)

denmarks said:


> Why hide the print option under the 9 square symbol?


And why use a 9-square icon (looks like a window pane), when everyone else uses a 3-bar hamburger icon for options?

As I said in another thread, I didn't even see the print option when I clicked on the icon, because the word "print" was cut off in my window. Until someone told me it was there, I never would have found it.


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## neroden (Feb 21, 2022)

I'm sufficiently unimpressed that I'm developing my own timetable generator. Still need Amtrak to release the GTFS data to the general public.


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## hello (Feb 22, 2022)

PRR 60 said:


> It is once again possible to download PDF printable timetables for a specific train, route or range of dates. The feature is accessed from the “Schedules” tab of Amtrak.com.
> 
> 
> On the Amtrak home page, click "Schedules" and enter the desired start and end stations and the date of travel (or range of dates up to a week). Click "Find Trains."
> ...


Thank you .... much easier to use!


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 22, 2022)

It's a start. Still annoying for triweekly trains like the Cardinal where you have to guess (or already know) what days of the week it runs so you can put in the correct day. At least of you do put in the wrong day it prompts you to try a different day.


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## Burns651 (Feb 22, 2022)

I've noticed VIA has also eliminated mileages. Perhaps so you don't notice as much how slow you're going!


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## dwebarts (Feb 22, 2022)

jis said:


> But clearly I am a fossil from a more timid fossil age when we took pride in stuff working right before sending them out to our customers.


This is one of the many reasons I left web development after I was laid off. I was tired of the "ship it" model of pushing things out that the stakeholders wanted vs. what the end users actually needed. Don't even get me started on sites that look like mobile on desktop.

I'll admit that I'm an ornery outlier that thinks "marketing" is the latest B.S. field, the way MBAs were pushed out of colleges in the 80s.


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## yyy (Feb 22, 2022)

The generated timetable cannot fit on a single page, which is ridiculous.


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## jebr (Feb 22, 2022)

One huge oversight (IMO) of Amtrak's web interface and scheduling (including the printable version!) is that it doesn't show operating carrier for any segments - including those not operated by Amtrak like the buses! An example is the MSP - MKE bus, which changed schedules and operating carriers at the start of the year. Before it was a Jefferson Lines bus, but Jefferson Lines dropped/lost the contract for the underlying route (it's not bookable on their website anymore and they had a slew of station closures along the route on January 1.) I was able to find the same route now listed on the Megabus website and operated by Wisconsin Coach Lines - _presumably_ that's the new operator but Amtrak's website doesn't say. Hopefully it at least says when you buy a ticket - but I don't really want to buy a ticket just to see who the operating carrier is, and I have no current need to use that bus service as-is.


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## neroden (Feb 23, 2022)

yyy said:


> The generated timetable cannot fit on a single page, which is ridiculous.



I'm working on better timetables as and when I get a chance. 

Unfortunately, with the clownshow behind the scenes at Amtrak it may take a while to get access to the necessary data.


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## bptenor (Feb 23, 2022)

jebr said:


> One huge oversight (IMO) of Amtrak's web interface and scheduling (including the printable version!) is that it doesn't show operating carrier for any segments - including those not operated by Amtrak like the buses! An example is the MSP - MKE bus, which changed schedules and operating carriers at the start of the year. Before it was a Jefferson Lines bus, but Jefferson Lines dropped/lost the contract for the underlying route (it's not bookable on their website anymore and they had a slew of station closures along the route on January 1.) I was able to find the same route now listed on the Megabus website and operated by Wisconsin Coach Lines - _presumably_ that's the new operator but Amtrak's website doesn't say. Hopefully it at least says when you buy a ticket - but I don't really want to buy a ticket just to see who the operating carrier is, and I have no current need to use that bus service as-is.



I took this MSP->MKE bus last week and about 50% of the passengers presented tickets from Megabus, so it appears they are indeed operating this route. The bus was also quite full...not the 20% capacity as estimated on Amtrak's website. Side note: I wouldn't recommend this method of travel as it adds 2+ hours to the trip (compared to the Empire Builder) in a cramped seat surrounded by passengers who downright refuse to wear masks.


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## jis (Feb 23, 2022)

neroden said:


> I'm working on better timetables as and when I get a chance.
> 
> Unfortunately, with the clownshow behind the scenes at Amtrak it may take a while to get access to the necessary data.


Or fall back on the well known art of screenscraping PDF?


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## jebr (Feb 23, 2022)

bptenor said:


> I took this MSP->MKE bus last week and about 50% of the passengers presented tickets from Megabus, so it appears they are indeed operating this route. The bus was also quite full...not the 20% capacity as estimated on Amtrak's website. Side note: I wouldn't recommend this method of travel as it adds 2+ hours to the trip (compared to the Empire Builder) in a cramped seat surrounded by passengers who downright refuse to wear masks.



Thanks for the update! Yeah - Amtrak's website won't show whatever tickets are booked directly through Megabus. Were you at least able to get a seat pair to yourself or did you have a seatmate?


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## SubwayNut (Feb 23, 2022)

God that new schedule feature is buggy, certain station combinations don't even result in a printable schedule.

I was able to get a PDF of all trains from New York to Washington but New York to Boston only will print out the schedule of an individual train not all trains, (could do New York to New Haven and New Haven to Boston but not them combined).


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## jis (Feb 23, 2022)

SubwayNut said:


> God that new schedule feature is buggy, certain station combinations don't even result in a printable schedule.
> 
> I was able to get a PDF of all trains from New York to Washington but New York to Boston only will print out the schedule of an individual train not all trains, (could do New York to New Haven and New Haven to Boston but not them combined).


Well, that sort of thing happens when you mindlessly release the result of each poorly designed sprint to the customer facing site.


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## neroden (Feb 23, 2022)

jis said:


> Or fall back on the well known art of screenscraping PDF?


No way. I'm designing the whole thing to work from GTFS data. I already know Amtrak generates the GTFS data and gives it to Google. I am hearing that they *should* be releasing it to the usual sites like OpenMobilityData. It just hasn't happened yet... If they don't, the backup is getting the GTFS files by FOIA, which people have done in the past.

Ugh. Family medical stuff has come up. I want to get back to working on this.


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## acelafan (Feb 24, 2022)

neroden said:


> No way. I'm designing the whole thing to work from GTFS data. I already know Amtrak generates the GTFS data and gives it to Google. I am hearing that they *should* be releasing it to the usual sites like OpenMobilityData. It just hasn't happened yet... If they don't, the backup is getting the GTFS files by FOIA, which people have done in the past.
> 
> Ugh. Family medical stuff has come up. I want to get back to working on this.


Can we get the GTFS data from Google or do they hide it?


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## John from RI (Feb 24, 2022)

PRR 60 said:


> It is once again possible to download PDF printable timetables for a specific train, route or range of dates. The feature is accessed from the “Schedules” tab of Amtrak.com.
> 
> 
> On the Amtrak home page, click "Schedules" and enter the desired start and end stations and the date of travel (or range of dates up to a week). Click "Find Trains."
> ...


Thanks for the information about what Amtrak will allow us to have. You are right that it is not much. But it is better than nothing and it is important to know how to get it. I never would have figured it out on my own.


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## west point (Feb 26, 2022)

Fortunately for me I have at least 2 route specific timetables for every LD train that I collected before they were scrapped. That and the ones now proffered are a good guides, but the Crescent's awful changes takes a lot of mental math,


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## jis (Feb 26, 2022)

The current rendition of the Amtrak Printed Timetable is a garbage toy that is mostly unusable. I would have flunked my First Year Computer Programming student if they brought this to me as their project report. The problem is more with the basic output from the Schedule package than with the rendition package, though the latter is not particularly good either. But it is mostly operating, or trying to operate in a GIGO mode for most examples that I threw at it. The output from Schedule often was five pages of multiple leg choices that were marked canceled followed by one valid single segment through train.


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## bptenor (Feb 26, 2022)

jebr said:


> Thanks for the update! Yeah - Amtrak's website won't show whatever tickets are booked directly through Megabus. Were you at least able to get a seat pair to yourself or did you have a seatmate?


Yes there were enough seats for everyone to have a pair.

Interesting enough, I took the Amtrak thruway from Saint Paul to Milwaukee today again (I do this frequently and am mourning the loss of the train) and there were only 4 other people on the bus. No megabus tickets this time. Much more pleasant experience, although I would take the train over this in a heartbeat, if only for saving 2+ hours.


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## toddinde (Feb 27, 2022)

I’m going to take any return of schedules as good news. The elimination of them goes in the category of sheer idiocy. Now, in the future, let’s hope they bring back route guides and some kind of printed schedules. But this is a good first step.


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## denmarks (Feb 27, 2022)

The timetables, as is, may be fine for long distance trains but is useless for researching the large number of trains in the East. There is no easy way to compare train schedules to see what route is best. It does bring up a list of all ways to get between 2 cities but it would be nice to select all and see side by side schedules.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 27, 2022)

denmarks said:


> The timetables, as is, may be fine for long distance trains but is useless for researching the large number of trains in the East. There is no easy way to compare train schedules to see what route is best. It does bring up a list of all ways to get between 2 cities but it would be nice to select all and see side by side schedules.



If there was a National Timetable, as there once was, all of the trains in the East would be there and very easy to compare routes and the trains' schedules.


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## neroden (Mar 5, 2022)

My timetable generating program is making solid progress. Needs several more modules, plus some finicky tweaks. (I'm working on checked baggage and station services: I know I can do these, I have the data, it's just a matter of parsing it. And of getting Amtrak to fix the cases where their station services data is wrong! I'll also need to write some "find all trains from A to B" modules to generate some of the busier timetables, since the design depends on having a list of the trains for a given timetable. But that's not hard with GTFS; styling the HTML was substantially harder.)

And of course I still need Amtrak to release the GTFS files so the timetables will actually be up to date. (I'm not putting a date on the timetable until it's a real timetable!)

But it's looking pretty... this is autogenerated (from old GTFS data and a one-liner template). I show arrival and departure times only for stations where the dwell is 5 minutes or more (configurable). This was specifically optimized to be as small as possible while being readable (turns out timetables are typically in a very small font to cram information in); I probably won't make the final ones all this small but I wanted to see what I could do.

I admit to being so obsessive that I drew the baggage icon myself.

I can't make Amtrak produce timetables, but I can make my own "Official Guide to the Railways". If anyone can put more pressure on Amtrak to release the GTFS, I can make a pretty nice set of timetables.


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## neroden (Mar 6, 2022)

acelafan said:


> Can we get the GTFS data from Google or do they hide it?


We can't. We just need Amtrak to publish the same files they're emailing to Google. Like practically every other transit agency in the world does. There doesn't seem to be any actual obstacle to doing so other than bureaucratic intransigence and/or incompetence. I've been trying to find the right pressure point to get them to just DO it.


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## acelafan (Mar 6, 2022)

neroden said:


> My timetable generating program is making solid progress. Needs several more modules, plus some finicky tweaks. (I'm working on checked baggage and station services: I know I can do these, I have the data, it's just a matter of parsing it. And of getting Amtrak to fix the cases where their station services data is wrong! I'll also need to write some "find all trains from A to B" modules to generate some of the busier timetables, since the design depends on having a list of the trains for a given timetable. But that's not hard with GTFS; styling the HTML was substantially harder.)
> 
> And of course I still need Amtrak to release the GTFS files so the timetables will actually be up to date. (I'm not putting a date on the timetable until it's a real timetable!)
> 
> ...


Wow, that looks amazing! You've done an incredible job given your limited time and health challenges at home, too (I hope your partner is feeling much better now). Can you contact RPA to see if they have a way to formally present this to Amtrak? I have emailed RPA to update a TT or two on their page when I saw it was out of date. 

I know a guy that worked at Amtrak who was trying to get the GTFS data released but he ended up quitting and going back to WMATA. Apparently Amtrak has some internal issues, especially the IT department, as we all know and he could not deal with the incompetent/apathetic work culture. I'll look through my contacts to see if I have any other business cards laying around that might come in handy to make a contact. Otherwise we ask Congress to micromanage them once again? They got authorized that historical-sized chunk of money so this shouldn't be a tall order.


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## PaTrainFan (Mar 6, 2022)

neroden said:


> My timetable generating program is making solid progress. Needs several more modules, plus some finicky tweaks. (I'm working on checked baggage and station services: I know I can do these, I have the data, it's just a matter of parsing it. And of getting Amtrak to fix the cases where their station services data is wrong! I'll also need to write some "find all trains from A to B" modules to generate some of the busier timetables, since the design depends on having a list of the trains for a given timetable. But that's not hard with GTFS; styling the HTML was substantially harder.)
> 
> And of course I still need Amtrak to release the GTFS files so the timetables will actually be up to date. (I'm not putting a date on the timetable until it's a real timetable!)
> 
> ...



This is beyond fantastic! Pulling this off would make you an authentic hero to railfans and the general Amtrak riding public.


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## Ryan (Mar 6, 2022)

Wonder how long it would take if they were on the receiving end of an avalanche of FOIA requests.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 6, 2022)

Looks good. You're going to need a way to show the time zones, though.

jb


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## fdaley (Mar 6, 2022)

neroden said:


> My timetable generating program is making solid progress. Needs several more modules, plus some finicky tweaks. (I'm working on checked baggage and station services: I know I can do these, I have the data, it's just a matter of parsing it. And of getting Amtrak to fix the cases where their station services data is wrong! I'll also need to write some "find all trains from A to B" modules to generate some of the busier timetables, since the design depends on having a list of the trains for a given timetable. But that's not hard with GTFS; styling the HTML was substantially harder.)
> 
> And of course I still need Amtrak to release the GTFS files so the timetables will actually be up to date. (I'm not putting a date on the timetable until it's a real timetable!)
> 
> ...



This is beautifully done and, if expanded to other routes, would be so useful to someone like me. Of course, it is just insane that Amtrak cannot produce something so basic to inform the traveling public about where its trains go and when. I look forward to more installments when you are able to produce them.


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## neroden (Mar 7, 2022)

John Bobinyec said:


> Looks good. You're going to need a way to show the time zones, though.


Yeah, that's one of the many issues I still have to work on.

Since it *is* possible to simply look up cities and find out what time zone they are in, and a lot of people know that Chicago is Central and New York is Eastern, it hasn't been my top priority. The time zone data is in the GTFS data.

The way it was displayed in the old Amtrak timetables is certainly possible, but will require some tricky HTML and is a bit nonobvious to the viewer. I think we can do better.

Do you have an opinion on where to display the time zone? City cell, time cell? What part of the cell? Column of its own?

It's easy enough to display the timezone in every row. Picking it out so it's only shown at the stations adjacent to the time zone change is harder, though I think I just figured out how to do it while I was typing; I need to do a pre-pass across the stations before the main timetable filling routine. (I'm already doing another pre-pass to find the dwell times. I think I'm going to have to add another one for another reason.)

----

In case people are curious, here's some of my rather long to-do list for timetable_kit (and mind you, I'm going to be interrupted by needing to do income taxes soon):

Top priority: I'm going to get the baggage symbol placed where it belongs, which is very important. I can extract which stations have checked baggage from Amtrak's station DB (available on the web in JSON), but I have to clean that code up. At the moment I need to maintain a list of which trains have a baggage car separately, but I think that's probably manageable, though I probably have to special-case 448 & 449.

I also have to get the implementation for less-than-daily information working properly, important right now; I had that working in an earlier version, so that should be a fairly simple matter of forward-porting.

I'm also going to get a row showing the train names implemented; that one should be easy.

Those are fairly small projects.

My next stages of major work are actually some internal code cleanup. There's some very ugly string-patching stuff in the presentation code which I'm hoping to simplify and make more maintainable with jinja2 templates. My plans for this aren't pinned down yet; I've got some prototyping and design work to do. Whatever I do has to be better than the current very long list of string concatenations and individual small file reads I'm currently doing.

A thornier problem is that I don't have a good approach for loading resource files (templates, "specs", fragments) from either the module itself or a user directory (which should override module defaults); I'm currently just doing "run it all out of the program directory and hardcode the file names". I've been trying to find out if there's a standard or preferred method of doing this in Python, but I'm not sure yet.

If anyone here knows Python and knows the answer to this, let me know. (I taught myself Python to write timetable_kit.)

I also have to patch the open-source font I'm using; I'm currently using a very hacky scheme to get the numbers in the times lined up by boxing them individually in HTML; it makes it difficult to change the font size. I know how to amend the font to provide tabular-nums which should allow a cleaner implementation; this is straightforward but will take quite a bit of tedious repetitive work.

These three changes together should allow for easier changes of font, font size, symbol choices, colors, and page layout changes (like key to the right of the timetable, two related timetables on one page, etc.)

What I have right now works well if you know which train numbers should be listed in the timetable, in what order, which have to be specified in a "spec". I am now certain that that can't be fully automated (it's an artistic decision), but I also need to write some more code for prototyping these (code to extract all the trains from NY to DC and put them in order, for instance) even though it will need manual tweaks before making it a "spec". I don't think that'll be difficult since I've got the right framework, and I already have some prototype functions, but it'll involve some code reorg.

There's more; the very tricky problem of showing connecting trains on a single timetable has been on my mind and I've got a couple of approaches. That one might not get done quickly though. (The California Coastal Services timetable is my holy grail of timetables; I'm not sure I can replicate that one but I'm gonna try.)

In the longer run, I'm going to try to separate out the Amtrak-specific stuff so this can be used for other agencies' timetables too. The underlying architecture also makes it theoretically possible to do something like a merged Amtrak / Metro-North or Amtrak/Metrolink/Coaster timetable, though it would require another layer of coding to pull out the relevant data and merge it. Right now it's entirely Amtrak-dependent (I'd need totally separate code to extract station information for a different agency).
-----

I can't really use any of this for real timetables until I get current Amtrak GTFS though. :sigh:

The main reason I'm not producing more installments is that I don't have accurate data, so these are pretty but they're no good as timetables without the GTFS data.

That's why there's just the one sample. (I actually have test runs on a bunch of other timetables in my working directory.)

When I get the data, I'll start putting out timetables, probably through RPA.


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## toddinde (Mar 7, 2022)

neroden said:


> My timetable generating program is making solid progress. Needs several more modules, plus some finicky tweaks. (I'm working on checked baggage and station services: I know I can do these, I have the data, it's just a matter of parsing it. And of getting Amtrak to fix the cases where their station services data is wrong! I'll also need to write some "find all trains from A to B" modules to generate some of the busier timetables, since the design depends on having a list of the trains for a given timetable. But that's not hard with GTFS; styling the HTML was substantially harder.)
> 
> And of course I still need Amtrak to release the GTFS files so the timetables will actually be up to date. (I'm not putting a date on the timetable until it's a real timetable!)
> 
> ...


What you’re doing is awesome. Thank you.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 7, 2022)

What Amtrak management doesn't realize is that by publishing the GTFS data, a lot of this work (timetables, maps, alerts, apps, ...) can be outsourced to us willing outsiders, and they don't have to pay for it anymore. On the other hand, Amtrak's IT department probably does realize it and therefore will resist publishing it to the bitter end.

jb


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## jis (Mar 7, 2022)

John Bobinyec said:


> What Amtrak management doesn't realize is that by publishing the GTFS data, a lot of this work (timetables, maps, alerts, apps, ...) can be outsourced to us willing outsiders, and they don't have to pay for it anymore. On the other hand, Amtrak's IT department probably does realize it and therefore will resist publishing it to the bitter end.
> 
> jb


Or they are just trying to figure out what and how


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2022)

Amtrak has released GTFS data. (Woohoo!) 

Discovered at transit.land:





RoadRunneR Shuttle, Wisconsin Coach Lines, Badger Bus and 49 additional operators • GTFS feed details: f-9-amtrak~amtrakcalifornia~amtrakcharteredvehicle


This is a GTFS feed with data for RoadRunneR Shuttle, Wisconsin Coach Lines, Badger Bus and 49 additional operators with the Onestop ID of f-9-amtrak~amtrakcalifornia~amtrakcharteredvehicle. Transitland has archived 14 versions of this feed, which are available to query by API and to...




www.transit.land





And the canonical source:


https://content.amtrak.com/content/gtfs/GTFS.zip



There are still a few problems with it, so it'll need some manual massaging. My framework is capable of dealing with that.

Unfortunately, I am about to have to dive into doing taxes. 

So although I'd love to get timetable_kit release-ready and start making timetables, don't expect any proper timetables out of me until April 15th is over; I probably won't have time to work on it for most of the next month. Timetable_kit is looking a lot cleaner and it might be possible for others to use it at this point, but it is still going to need some major rework and its interfaces remain completely in flux.


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## joelkfla (Mar 12, 2022)

neroden said:


> Amtrak has released GTFS data. (Woohoo!)
> 
> Discovered at transit.land:
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the link to the data. As a former DB programmer, it's fun to poke around in there.


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## Kirk2266 (May 26, 2022)

Hope this is the right place to ask this question, but is there way to get any printable timetables that are current for Amtrak.


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## TinCan782 (May 26, 2022)

Check the dates, may or may not be the most up-to-date. 
However, this is a source...








Amtrak Timetables | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC







www.railpassengers.org


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## Kirk2266 (May 26, 2022)

Thanks. This should help.


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## Maglev (May 26, 2022)

It's possible to get a route's schedule, without mileage, on the Amtrak website. Enter departure, arrival and date in the booking fields, then on the next screen click on "Trip Details." This gives the latest information, including layovers ("Fresh Air stops"), which sometimes are not shown in the historical timetables.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 26, 2022)

The printout from Schedules looks better than in the earlier days. Though they do need to change the 9 squares icon to a printer icon so you know what it does.






Though they do need to change the 9 squares icon to a printer icon so you know it's there.


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## TheVig (May 26, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Wonder how long it would take if they were on the receiving end of an avalanche of FOIA requests.



There is nothing stopping us from doing just that.


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## Shanson (Jul 14, 2022)

The old timetables (remember those?) used to show flag stops, which meant that the train would not stop unless there was a passenger to pick up or discharge.

Last October 2021, I didn't expect the Cardinal to stop in Thurmond WV. It did stop (barely) and the conductor told us that the flag stops are now full stops, due to Positive Train Control. Anyone hear the same thing?

Which brings me to my next question. A few years ago, we got off (and a few days later reboarded) the EB in East Glacier Park in September, just before the Lodge was preparing to close for the season. The station staff said they man the station in Browning MT during the off season. It was my understanding that this was the only station pair in the system that did this. My second question is: are those now permanent separate stops thanks to PTC, or does East Glacier still get bypassed in favor of Browning during the off season?


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## trimetbusfan (Jul 15, 2022)

Shanson said:


> The old timetables (remember those?) used to show flag stops, which meant that the train would not stop unless there was a passenger to pick up or discharge.
> 
> Last October 2021, I didn't expect the Cardinal to stop in Thurmond WV. It did stop (barely) and the conductor told us that the flag stops are now full stops, due to Positive Train Control. Anyone hear the same thing?
> 
> Which brings me to my next question. A few years ago, we got off (and a few days later reboarded) the EB in East Glacier Park in September, just before the Lodge was preparing to close for the season. The station staff said they man the station in Browning MT during the off season. It was my understanding that this was the only station pair in the system that did this. My second question is: are those now permanent separate stops thanks to PTC, or does East Glacier still get bypassed in favor of Browning during the off season?


When I rode the EB in March, we passed East Glacier at speed and did not stop.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 15, 2022)

trimetbusfan said:


> When I rode the EB in March, we passed East Glacier at speed and did not stop.


When I rode it November eastbound, same thing.


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

trimetbusfan said:


> When I rode the EB in March, we passed East Glacier at speed and did not stop.


East Glacier (GPK) is closed during the winter months; Browning (BRO) is used instead.


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## Stremba (Jul 15, 2022)

I have ridden the Pennsylvanian multiple times. There are two flag stops, Tyrone and Latrobe, on that route. In all the times I’ve ridden it, the Pennsylvanian has stopped at both every single trip. Perhaps there just were boardings or departures booked for those stations on all my trips; I cannot rule that out, so take it for what it’s worth.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 15, 2022)

The Sunset Ltd. now Stops in both directions @ Sanderson,TX, which used to be a Flag Stop until the old SP Station was torn down and a Platform of sorts was Constructed.( it used to be a Gravel Road )

Since verifiable info isn't available from Amtrak as to actual Flag Stops, I'm wondering if there's any real Flag Stops left on the LD Routes?


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> The Sunset Ltd. now Stops in both directions @ Sanderson,TX, which used to be a Flag Stop until the old SP Station was torn down and a Platform of sorts was Constructed.( it used to be a Gravel Road )
> 
> Since verifiable info isn't available from Amtrak as to actual Flag Stops, I'm wondering if there's any real Flag Stops left on the LD Routes?


Looking at a March 2020 schedule from Amtrak, the showed NO flag stops. Don't have any older schedules to look at to try and determine when they "went away". Maybe they just don't put that symbol on the printed schedules anymore.
IIRC Benson, AZ was a flag stop also.
I'll have to try and remember to observe and note such stops when I'm on the SL in the next couple of weeks.


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## joelkfla (Jul 15, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Looking at a March 2020 schedule from Amtrak, the showed NO flag stops. Don't have any older schedules to look at to try and determine when they "went away". Maybe they just don't put that symbol on the printed schedule anymore.


You mean, "Maybe they just _didn't _put that symbol on the printed schedule anymore."


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> You mean, "Maybe they just _didn't _put that symbol on the printed schedule anymore."


didn't/don't...its not there anymore!


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

OK, just found a copy of the "Amtrak System Timetable" effective January 11, 2016. You know, the big printed one Amtrak used to publish. That timetable has the flag stop symbol for Sanderson, Deming, Lordsburg and Benson on the SL route.
The only flag stop on the EB in 2016 was Essex (Izaak Walton Inn).


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## tricia (Jul 15, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> OK, just found a copy of the "Amtrak System Timetable" effective January 11, 2016. You know, the big printed one Amtrak used to publish. That timetable has the flag stop symbol for Sanderson, Deming, Lordsburg and Benson on the SL route.
> The only flag stop on the EB in 2016 was Essex (Izaak Walton Inn).



My copy of that 2016 printed timetable will remain in my possession until it's pried from my cold, dead hands.  

Even if the departure/arrival times are no longer accurate, it's HUGELY helpful to be able to see the LD network's routes and approximate timing. Why, oh why won't Amtrak at least publish a printed system MAP?


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

tricia said:


> My copy of that 2016 printed timetable will remain in my possession until it's pried from my cold, dead hands.
> 
> Even if the departure/arrival times are no longer accurate, it's HUGELY helpful to be able to see the LD network's routes and approximate timing. Why, oh why won't Amtrak at least publish a printed system MAP?


Like this?


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Maps/Amtrak-System-Map-1018.pdf


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## Shanson (Jul 15, 2022)

Anyone need images of older timetables? Here you go:






Amtrak Timetable Archives - Home


Amtrak Timetables Archive



juckins.net


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## TinCan782 (Jul 15, 2022)

Shanson said:


> Anyone need images of older timetables? Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, I lwas lookin there when I recalled I had a printed 2016 timetable on the shelf here!


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## Shanson (Jul 15, 2022)

One of these days, I will organize my old timetables...


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## Trogdor (Jul 15, 2022)

I’ve never heard of PTC enforcing station stops. There are still a number of instances of flag stops on railroads (don’t know about Amtrak specifically), and PTC hasn’t changed that at all.


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## Everydaymatters (Jul 16, 2022)

My 2016 Timetable is one of my most precious possessions. Hmmm, it's looking like a well-preserved yellowed and ragged book.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jul 16, 2022)

The Downeaster schedule ( available at the Downeaster web site still shows Freeport as a flag stop.


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## tricia (Jul 16, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Maps/Amtrak-System-Map-1018.pdf


No. I want them to print it and have it available for passengers to pick up on trains and in stations. This used to be called marketing.


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## Shanson (Jul 16, 2022)

Not spending money on printed marketing materials is penny-wise but pound foolish.


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## railiner (Jul 16, 2022)

tricia said:


> No. I want them to print it and have it available for passengers to pick up on trains and in stations. This used to be called marketing.


Perhaps not just 'marketing'...IIRC the regulatory bodies, as in ICC or state PUC's used to require railroads to offer printed timetables...
Guess that is 'gone with the wind'....


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## west point (Jul 16, 2022)

Know someone who has printed timetables back to 2005 - to lst one. At that 2005 time they were split into two parts one timetable NEC and other LD and other trains.


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## jis (Jul 16, 2022)

west point said:


> Know someone who has printed timetables back to 2005 - to lst one. At that 2005 time they were split into two parts one timetable NEC and other LD and other trains.


Check out The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## Shanson (Jul 16, 2022)

So (repeating myself) I was told by a conductor on the Cardinal that there are no longer flag stops. Because of programming for PTC, trains observe the old flag stops as regular stops.

So, therefore I assume (risky) that the PTC has to be reprogrammed when East Glacier opens and also when it closes. Anyone have actual knowledge?


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## jis (Jul 16, 2022)

Shanson said:


> So (repeating myself) I was told by a conductor on the Cardinal that there are no longer flag stops. Because of programming for PTC, trains observe the old flag stops as regular stops.
> 
> So, therefore I ASSUME (risky) that the PTC has to be reprogrammed when East Glacier opens and also when it closes. Anyone have actual knowledge?


A train can stop wherever without reprogramming PTC. The Conductor clearly does not understand how PTC works. Most flag stops generally went away several years before PTC came about anyway.

In case there is interest in understanding how PTC in general and its I-ETMS incarnation as used by CSX among others in particular works, a possibly somewhat time consuming perusal of the following thread would be in order...






All about PTC, I-ETMS and ACSES


Thought it might be good to have a thread to place all good information about PTC systems and technology in. As a starter I would like to share this neat document that I found, published by Alstom on PTC using ACSES and a neat description of some of the technical components used...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## RebelRider (Jul 17, 2022)

jis said:


> A train can stop wherever without reprogramming PTC. The Conductor clearly does not understand how PTC works. Most flag stops generally went away several years before PTC came about anyway.



All three points are spot on. 

PTC doesn’t know the train’s schedule nor the location of any station stops. PTC only cares if the train isn’t slowing or stopping when PTC thinks it should be.


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## railiner (Jul 17, 2022)

I was never a fan of flag stops, that carried the risk of missing someone wanting to board, or carrying by someone wanting to disembark. Much better to make a quick one minute stop, at a specified time, IMHO. 

That said, flag stops seem to be the only practical way to handle certain remote train services, such as the Alaska RR or Via Rail, where they will stop almost anywhere on their remote routes, on demand....


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## west point (Jul 17, 2022)

I like the concept of flag stops. However, there needs to be a better method of signaling the loco. Definitely more expensive but a permanent signal much like a train order signal is needed IMO. I can see the needfor Amtrak IT to only allow signal to be activated shortly before arrival. Oh wait IT doing anything?


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## jis (Jul 17, 2022)

I was under the impression that VIA requires 24 hour notification to use a flag stop.

On a fully reserved train the manifest has information about whether a stop is needed or not. Methinks this is another solution looking for a problem


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## joelkfla (Jul 17, 2022)

west point said:


> I like the concept of flag stops. However, there needs to be a better method of signaling the loco. Definitely more expensive but a permanent signal much like a train order signal is needed IMO. I can see the needfor Amtrak IT to only allow signal to be activated shortly before arrival. Oh wait IT doing anything?


In a previous discussion, it was noted that South Shore has upstream "beacons" that are activated by a push button at the station. Does Amtrak use these?

Of course, it shouldn't matter on all-reserved trains. It seems the conductor could notify the engineer when the passenger manifest shows someone scheduled to board.

Are Downeasters all-reserved?


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## Cal (Jul 17, 2022)

railiner said:


> I was never a fan of flag stops, that carried the risk of missing someone wanting to board, or carrying by someone wanting to disembark. Much better to make a quick one minute stop, at a specified time, IMHO.


Conductors would’ve known if anyones getting off at a flag stop and would stop, unless it’s an intercity train.


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## TinCan782 (Jul 17, 2022)

Cal said:


> Conductors would’ve known if anyones getting off at a flag stop and would stop, unless it’s an intercity train.


I've observed (as a passenger) the train slowing down for a looksee at flag stops just-in-case. I belive an announcement was made onboard as well.


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## railiner (Jul 17, 2022)

Good points, about reserved trains. But I have been on the ARR and the Via Jonquiere route, where a passenger can just tell the Conductor where they would like to get off...sometimes just a cabin trackside, or even a trailhead, and retrieve their canoe or whatever from the baggage car...


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## jis (Jul 17, 2022)

railiner said:


> Good points, about reserved trains. But I have been on the ARR and the Via Jonquiere route, where a passenger can just tell the Conductor where they would like to get off...sometimes just a cabin trackside, or even a trailhead, and retrieve their canoe or whatever from the baggage car...


Alaska RR has that facility too between Talkeetna and Hurricane.


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## railiner (Jul 17, 2022)

jis said:


> Alaska RR has that facility too between Talkeetna and Hurricane.


Here it is...


https://www.alaskarailroad.com/ride-a-train/our-trains/hurricane-turn


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## joelkfla (Jul 17, 2022)

railiner said:


> Good points, about reserved trains. But I have been on the ARR and the Via Jonquiere route, where a passenger can just tell the Conductor where they would like to get off...sometimes just a cabin trackside, or even a trailhead, and retrieve their canoe or whatever from the baggage car...


Even VIA now requires 48 hours advance notice for a flag stop boarding; it's not clear whether that also applies to drop-off.





Stops in between two stations | VIA Rail


VIA Rail gives travellers the opportunity to make stops in between two stations on certain routes only.




www.viarail.ca


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## railiner (Jul 18, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Even VIA now requires 48 hours advance notice for a flag stop boarding; it's not clear whether that also applies to drop-off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure of the reason for that...perhaps to determine whether it will delay the train or not? I imagine they will not let you off at a hazardous location, such as on a high fill, or similar....


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## Greenline (Jul 18, 2022)

In Sanderson TX on the Sunset line, the engineer slows the train to a walking pace and then he's out of there. If you buy a ticket online (the only way, they won't accept a cash purchase at the platform) they should stop. I actually saw a passenger disembark last week. I am restoring the old Sanderson State Bank building right across the street from the stop. I get to see (and hear) a lot of rail action.


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## amtrakpass (Jul 18, 2022)

Flag stops work fine if customers have any experience taking the train. They are still common on many commuter systems. As long as people are visible on the platform the train will stop. Most engineers would slow down to around 20mph or so just in case they have to stop. If you have a lot of stops it does save time to only stop where there are actually passengers. For instance the Metra Electric district last I knew still had a lot of flag stops where the stations are not that far apart. Since Amtrak requires reservations most places they would only stop if there is an actual reservation in the manifest I suppose but I am not sure on their practices or procedures as far as flag stops


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## Barb Stout (Jul 20, 2022)

Greenline said:


> In Sanderson TX on the Sunset line, the engineer slows the train to a walking pace and then he's out of there. If you buy a ticket online (the only way, they won't accept a cash purchase at the platform) they should stop. I actually saw a passenger disembark last week. I am restoring the old Sanderson State Bank building right across the street from the stop. I get to see (and hear) a lot of rail action.


What are you renovating the Sanderson State Bank building to become?


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## Shanson (Jul 20, 2022)

Barb Stout said:


> What are you renovating the Sanderson State



Cool! Someone from Sanderson on this site!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 20, 2022)

Shanson said:


> Cool! Someone from Sanderson on this site!


Wow, Sanderson is starting to Boom!


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## Greenline (Jul 20, 2022)

I'm not sure what I will do with it. I love restoring old historic buildings. The old Sanderson State Bank building will probably be a short term lodging for Amtrak touring lovers that want to stop for a day and a night. Then back on and keep going. At least that is what I would want to do, especially in eyesight of the whistle stop. Make's it real easy. You can sit on the bank porch and watch the trains go.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jul 21, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Are Downeasters all-reserved?


From the Downeaster web site FAQ:
Do I need to make a reservation to travel on the Amtrak Downeaster?
Yes, the Amtrak Downeaster is a reserved service and reservations are required prior to boarding.


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## Northwestern (Jul 31, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Well, that is an improvement but, why is this print option so "obvious". Never would have noticed if you hadn't re-directed me to the original post. Thanks.
> 
> Noticed the Coast Starlight schedule takes two pages; the older traditional schedule fit on a single side (page) of the schedule.


Yes, I did notice. With the old Amtrak PDF online schedule pages, didn't they also include, on the same page, the Amtrak thruway bus connections? My old 2015 hard copy of the Amtrak System Timetable did show the timetables and bus connections on the same page. I would like to see the hard copy timetable booklet return. Maybe they could sell them on board the train. Or, possibly one of the train magazine publishers (Kalmbach, White River, etc.) could publish a timetable booklet.


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## acelafan (Aug 1, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> Yes, I did notice. With the old Amtrak PDF online schedule pages, didn't they also include, on the same page, the Amtrak thruway bus connections? My old 2015 hard copy of the Amtrak System Timetable did show the timetables and bus connections on the same page. I would like to see the hard copy timetable booklet return. Maybe they could sell them on board the train. Or, possibly one of the train magazine publishers (Kalmbach, White River, etc.) could publish a timetable booklet.


A reminder that RPA has timetables on their site, and I have managed to scrape together the latest timetables from a variety of sources and rail enthusiasts (see Amtrak Timetable Archives - Home) 

Part of my collection includes Nathanael Nerode's PDF timetable program which does a great job of trying to include bus connections wherever possible. 

I posted the new Empire Builder schedule the other day. RPA should get it posted shortly, as well. 

Really, _*Amtrak*_ should be creating and maintaining the PDF timetables as we all know. I shake my head when Amtrak quit making the timetables but then making its passengers figure out when the trains run or connect to other trains. (Amtrak employees have timetables, why can't the passengers??) 

Amtrak's annual funding from Congress should allow them to make timetables, without being micro-managed or directed to do so. But, I digress.


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