# Disney World Monorail Crash



## AlanB (Jul 5, 2009)

> This morning, the operator of a Walt Disney World Monorail train was killed after crashing into the rear of a stationary Monorail train on the Epcot track as guests were leaving the Fourth of July festivities at the resort.
> According to Reedy Creek fire officials, the stationary train was at the Transportation and Ticket Center, and the crash occured at approximately 2:00 a.m. Sunday, July 5. Eyewitnesses say that the fire crews used torches to cut through the crushed metal to reach the driver, who was prounounced dead at the scene. Seven other people were checked and found not to be seriously injured.


More can be found at The Examiner

And Channel 2

And Click Orlando.

Ps. I'll move this where it belongs later, but since it is serious and breaking news, it deserves maximum attention for the moment.


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## GG-1 (Jul 5, 2009)

Aloha

I am sad to report the Florida Monorail at Walt Disney World has had a Fatality. Story is Here,


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 5, 2009)

Alan did you notice the quote about "..this is supposed to be impossible.."?Is this similar to

the Red Line accident in DC especially since the operator supposedly? can overide the

automatic system? Perhaps our experts have info on this type of system? Thanks!


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## AlanB (Jul 5, 2009)

I saw that quote Jim, but I'm not so sure about just how that operates. Perhaps they've upgraded things, but last I knew the monorail operators had to memorize the hold points, as there were no signs or other indicators. I know that there are red/green signals, but beyond that I'm not sure if there is actually an automated system that would stop the monorail if an operator ran a signal.

And of course that assumes that the operator didn't override it. However, I would figure that any override would first require a full stop, before being allowed to override and proceed. And that train had to be moving pretty fast to do the damage seen in those photos. So I do wonder about whether there is actually some type of ATS system in place.

The monorails are capable of using such a system, but when that track was built such a system didn't exist. And again, I've not heard that the system was retrofitted. Not saying that it wasn't, just don't know.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks Alan!Readin farther in the comments from ex-employees,locals and actual on sight

guests, I got the impression that the operators had to get "permission" to overide the system

before they could stop the train or else face discipline for not folllowing procedure!If this is

true Im sure Disney will face law suits and lawyers are firing up their phones and lap tops as

I write this!LOL! Im sure being a "cast member" is the same as a low paid,minimum wage job

since there are mentions of cut backs in thne park and poor training?I know accidents happen

and hopefully the truth will come out and corrections will be made!I dont think that I would ride

in the cab of any mono-rail or high speed train or subway, but perhaps a steamer with a good

cow catcher would be OK!Our best to the operators family and anyone injured for sure!


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## AlanB (Jul 5, 2009)

I've been fortunate enough to have been up front several times on a monorail and IMHO its a ride that should not be missed, even with the danger of a crash. Most of my rides were in the older MARC IV trains, not the newer MARC VI trains, but either is neat ride.

And upon further reading, I see that there is indeed an automated system in place to stop the trains called MAPO (for MAry POppins). So one does have to wonder what went wrong here.

One thing that I will point out though, in almost 40 years of continuous operation and averaging 50 Million people moved each year, this is the first fatality while on a train. There have been a few incidents with people getting on the beam and either getting hit or electrocuted. But in all those years and with millions of riders, this is the first onboard fatality.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 5, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Alan did you notice the quote about "..this is supposed to be impossible.."?Is this similar tothe Red Line accident in DC especially since the operator supposedly? can overide the
> 
> automatic system? Perhaps our experts have info on this type of system? Thanks!


The Cylons are just testing out a few viruses selectively targeting rail-based transportation systems (trains).

There is nothing to worry about. These are only tests.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 5, 2009)




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## MattW (Jul 5, 2009)

(most of this first part is from Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt)

They store two trains at stations during the night. In order to transfer to a spur line, there is a MAPO override button. Not sure how the two could be connected.

[pure speculation]

The only scenario playing out in my mind right now is that for whatever reason they were operating with passengers at two in the morning, one of the monorails had already been staged and in order to offload the people, the operator was cleared to MAPO override into the station and either misjudged the distance/speed, or there was a failure in the monorail itself preventing it from stopping safely.

[/pure speculation]


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## AlanB (Jul 5, 2009)

MattW said:


> (most of this first part is from Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt)They store two trains at stations during the night. In order to transfer to a spur line, there is a MAPO override button. Not sure how the two could be connected.
> 
> [pure speculation]
> 
> ...


The switch that allows trains to move between the Epcot loop and the Magic Kingdom loop is after the Ticket & Transportation Center (TTC), so the operator of the train that rear ended the other train should not have been operating yet with MAPO overridden. He should have done that while in the station or perhaps shortly after that.

As for why there were passengers on one of the trains, because of the holiday the Magic Kingdom was open until 1:00 AM last night July 4th. Monorails and other forms of Disney transportation always operate until at least two hours after the last park closes. During the winter months when the park closes early at 8:00 PM, the monorails usually run till at least midnight.

[speculation] Now, since this was the Epcot loop, my educated guess is that the train in the station was loading passengers who had been at the Magic Kingdom and had taken the MK train to the TTC and had just transferred to the Epcot bound train to return to their cars parked over at Epcot. The arriving/rear ending train I would figure was empty, since I can't imagine why there would be anyone coming from Epcot over to the TTC, since Epcot had closed hours before.

What was to happen with that arriving train is anyone's guess. It could have been the next Epcot bound train; it could have been headed for the barn.

Finally, while I won't swear to it, I would expect that the two monorails parked in a station overnight either spend the night in either the MK station or the Contemporary Hotel station. The TTC is too far away from the employee areas to be of use for storage IMHO. And to some extent, it's an unsecured area.

[/speculation]

And the reason that two trains get stored in a station, assuming that part is true and I think that it probably is, is that when the original MKC-TTC loop was built, they only had 10 monorail trains and therefore the yard was built to deal with 10 trains. When WDW brought the MARC VI's from Bombardier, they brought 12 trains.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 5, 2009)

http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/07/05/one-ca...-monorail-crash

While not an offical source... this claims that monorail pink BACKED into monorail purple while it was at or approaching the station. According to this article, MAPO is usually overidden during this time.

This article also claims that when MAPO is overidden trains are not permitted to run over 15 mph...

Very sad...


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## PRR 60 (Jul 5, 2009)

The accident occurred when monorail pink backed into a stationary monorail purple at the Ticket and Transportation Center. Monorail pink was out of service and was performing a routine back-up move in preparation for being moved to the storage area. The monorail automatic train control system was overridden (required) for the backing move.

A more complete description of what happened can be found at Post 2 of the discussion at MiceChat.

Mice Chat discussion


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## AlanB (Jul 5, 2009)

Wow, that's one scenario I wouldn't have imagined. And I have to wonder about the 15 MPH that the guy is talking about. That seems like quite a bit of damage for only 15 MPH. I would have pegged that collision as at least 30 MPH.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 5, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Wow, that's one scenario I wouldn't have imagined. And I have to wonder about the 15 MPH that the guy is talking about. That seems like quite a bit of damage for only 15 MPH. I would have pegged that collision as at least 30 MPH.


Well... 30 mph might have been possible if both trains had been moving at 15. One speculation I read suggested that monorail purple was just arriving into the station, leading to some witnesses mentioning a "head-on" colission (I think I had read that somewhere.)

It somewhat surprises me that it is "standard procedure" to operate monorails blindly in reverse like this.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 5, 2009)

Since it is a closed system, I'd imagine those trains don't exactly have great crashworthiness.


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## TampAGS (Jul 5, 2009)

My heart sank to the pit of my stomach when I first saw the headlines of this story. One of my friends works at Disney as a Monorail Operator. Thankfully upon further reading I found he was not involved (I later learned he was actually not working at all that evening). He was friends with his colleague who was killed, though, and this has come as quite a shock to him and his fellow Monorail operators and crew. The loss of such a young and promising life so unexpectedly is tragedy enough, but for it to happen at your workplace and to your co-worker and friend... I can't really imagine the myriad of raw emotions they and the young man's family are experiencing.

 

I pray for their community and also for a quick but definitive and accurate determination as to what happened and how. As with most accidents, questions will need to be answered for closure to begin, but the necessity is exponentially greater in workplace accidents.


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## battalion51 (Jul 5, 2009)

I'm sure in this process some heads are going to roll. It seems like (as in normal railroad operations) there should be a requirement for there to be a person on the leading end of every move, with the ability to stop the train. In this sort of situation it seems like normal protocol would be for the driver to be on the leading end doing a blind reverse move. I could be wrong, but that's EXTREMELY UNSAFE. I guarantee you there will be extreme criticism and scrutiny on Disney for this.


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## Spokker (Jul 5, 2009)

A video of the aftermath is here.



_While there is nothing graphic, gory, or bloody in this video, I still urge caution when viewing it as it can be unsettling to realize that the operator of the purple train is in the cab and most likely already dead, even as they are trying to get him to respond and open the door._


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## PRR 60 (Jul 6, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> I'm sure in this process some heads are going to roll. It seems like (as in normal railroad operations) there should be a requirement for there to be a person on the leading end of every move, with the ability to stop the train. In this sort of situation it seems like normal protocol would be for the driver to be on the leading end doing a blind reverse move. I could be wrong, but that's EXTREMELY UNSAFE. I guarantee you there will be extreme criticism and scrutiny on Disney for this.


For a railroad operation, that is correct, but for this operation, the standard procedure has been to reverse blind with the operator in the trailing cab and the dispatcher at the TTC, who has a clear view f the station and beams, being the eyes for the back-up move. The design of the cars does not permit passage from car to car, and the monorail design does not permit the operator to exit the train and walk back the the other end, so getting someone in the rear cab is not all that easy.

I think one could argue that the safety of that procedure has been proven over some 35+ years of safe operation. The problem here is not that the procedure is unsafe, but that the procedure failed when apparently no one at the TTC was looking when the train was cleared to back into the station with the beam occupied. My guess is that the move is so routine and so repetitious that complacency worked its way in.


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## VentureForth (Jul 6, 2009)

My most sincerest condolences to all at Disney World. This is a true tragedy and my heart goes out to all who were intimately involved in the scene.

I've been concerned about Disney for years. In my three years there, I learned a lot about how they hire and train cast members. In the Michael Eisner days, there was a huge "Wal-Mark"-esque move towards cheaper labor. Benefits were cut and finding a full time position almost required someone to retire. Disney thrived on part time labor and college kids.

In my personal experience, the ONLY mode of transit that seemingly kept the best of the best were the busses. I have never seen part timers or college kids driving the busses. But I have on all the boats and ferrys and, yes, the monorail.

During my most recent visit, I talked with folks about training. Trainer training has gone from one day to a half day. Orientation has gone from two days to a day. On the job training, while job specific, has been reduced. Couple that with the promise that your job will only last 3 months, or that you'll only get 30 hours a week and no benefits, apathy is a huge problem.

During my time there, I've ridden the monorail a LOT. Its been 10 years, though, and I don't remember a lot of the details. I know that the Tokyo Disney Resort monorail system only has one operator - in the back. He just makes sure that the doors don't close on people. He can't see if anything might be fouling the beam.

Back to Disney World. I don't know when the Mark VIs were delivered. I'm not suprised at all that SOP hasn't changed though, and I'm sure that the new trains were not any more safe than before. Why would they have to be after 40 fail safe years? It just means more money.


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## Tony (Jul 6, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> I think one could argue that the safety of that procedure has been proven over some 35+ years of safe operation. The problem here is not that the procedure is unsafe, but that the procedure failed when apparently no one at the TTC was looking when the train was cleared to back into the station with the beam occupied. My guess is that the move is so routine and so repetitious that complacency worked its way in.


I think complacency is the reoccurring theme as I read more and more about this. With 35+ years of safe operation, Disney started to bend their own rules trying to "push" more people thru the monorail with faster turn around times.

One account has that the backing up train was on the wrong rail/beam (some switch didn't switch?). Has anyone verified this?

Another account has that this accident could have been prevented if the operator of the second train had only done an emergency override and "peeled out, backward". Nothing like putting the blame in the wrong place.

The one thing that comes to my mind, is that both train sets stayed on the track/beam. Sorry, but I always had a fear that in such situations, one or both train sets would derail and fall to the ground.


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## Tony (Jul 6, 2009)

Does anyone know why the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration is investigating this, and not the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)?


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## MrFSS (Jul 6, 2009)

Tony said:


> Does anyone know why the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration is investigating this, and not the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)?


From my work experience over the years, OSHA is involved in employee death accidents, no matter where or how it happened.

Does the Momorail at Disney fall under FRA?


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## jis (Jul 6, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know why the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration is investigating this, and not the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)?
> ...


No. But an operation does not have to fall under FRA for NTSB to investigate. NTSB is supposed to investigate all transportation accidents that involve significant loss, and definitely those that involve loss of life. Of course, I have no idea whether a ride in a park would fall under stuff that NTSB investigates.


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## VentureForth (Jul 6, 2009)

The Walt Disney World Monorail is a transportation system, not a "ride" per se. However, since it is 100% on private property and doesn't interface with any other mode of transit (like the busses do), I presume that the rules are extremely relaxed. I think OSHA is enough bureaucracy to handle this mess.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> Back to Disney World. I don't know when the Mark VIs were delivered. I'm not suprised at all that SOP hasn't changed though, and I'm sure that the new trains were not any more safe than before. Why would they have to be after 40 fail safe years? It just means more money.


The MARK VI's started to come on line in 1989, with the final train being delivered in 1991.

As for your assertion that the new trains are not any safer than before, you would be wrong. The MARK VI's were built by Bombardier as a production line item. They had hopes of selling them, and therefore the new trains were much safer than before.

Just to name a few safety features, the MARK VI's have a fire detection system, emergency escape hatch in the room, they now fill the tires with nitrogen to reduce the risk of fire (after a fire started by a tire on a MARK IV), and many other things.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 6, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> The Walt Disney World Monorail is a transportation system, not a "ride" per se. However, since it is 100% on private property and doesn't interface with any other mode of transit (like the busses do), I presume that the rules are extremely relaxed. I think OSHA is enough bureaucracy to handle this mess.


I would bet a small amount of money that Disney lists the monorails legally as "Attractions" not transportation. A bus driver once told me that all WDW transportation including the busses are listed as "Attractions" not actual "Transportation" for legal purposes. I'm not sure if this is really true.. but interesting if it is.


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## George Harris (Jul 6, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > The Walt Disney World Monorail is a transportation system, not a "ride" per se. However, since it is 100% on private property and doesn't interface with any other mode of transit (like the busses do), I presume that the rules are extremely relaxed. I think OSHA is enough bureaucracy to handle this mess.
> ...


1. It has been said that all safety rules are written in blood. It appears that part of the problem was not recognizing that in many ways this is still a railroad. I do agree that complacency probably played a part.

2. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that whether Disney lists this as an attraction or not and whether it is all on Disney property or not will have very little to do with whether or not the NTSB investigates the situation. The state of Florida may do its own as well, although given the huge political clout of Disney there it would likely be fairly meaningless. OHSA or the state could also ask for the NTSB to participate.

3. It is surprising how much damage a relatively low speed collision can do to vehicles. There have been studies that show that both police and bystanders cosistently overestimate collision speeds, usually by a factor of 1.5 to 2 or even more. When looking at the damage on these things, remember there is considerably more mass behind the front end than there would be with a car or bus, which would make the tendency to overestimate collision speeds even worse.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jul 6, 2009)

The Feds do have jurisdiction. As far as the State is concerned, it is a bit complicated. Walt Disney managed to get the Florida Legislature to give him (the company) actual municipal status - I believe it is the Reedy Creek Development District or some such (circa 1967, I think). Disney actually has the governmental authority of a genuine municipality, giving them, as I understand it, the ability to make their own building codes and basically anything else they want to do, they need no approval from anybody but themselves. I think somebody mentioned on the news tonight that Cinderella's Castle is fiberglass, as an example. But they still can't deny OSHA and probably NTSB access if those federal agencies decide there is something to investigate. My understanding is that OSHA is involved. This is all from local Orlando TV news coverage, since that's where I live.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2009)

AmtrakWPK said:


> But they still can't deny OSHA and probably NTSB access if those federal agencies decide there is something to investigate. My understanding is that OSHA is involved. This is all from local Orlando TV news coverage, since that's where I live.


OSHA is indeed involved in the investigation, and in fact released the trains back to Disney today around mid-day I understand. Shortly after that, Disney had the monorails back on the beams conducting the usual tests for safety and a few others, and then resumed service on at least the TTC - Magic Kindom line. It's unclear at the moment if the Epcot line is back up and running.

Additionally they have supposedly installed some new sensors on the switches, which leads one to believe that a switch was indeed a major part of this accident.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2009)

George Harris said:


> 3. It is surprising how much damage a relatively low speed collision can do to vehicles. There have been studies that show that both police and bystanders cosistently overestimate collision speeds, usually by a factor of 1.5 to 2 or even more. When looking at the damage on these things, remember there is considerably more mass behind the front end than there would be with a car or bus, which would make the tendency to overestimate collision speeds even worse.


Additional reports that have come out are now indicating that it may not have been quite as low speed as originally thought. It's looking like both monorails were in motion at the time and both were using an override mode, which would have limited each to 15 MPH. But that would still be a combined closure rate of 30 MPH.

It is unclear at this point if the operator who was killed had started to slow his train or not, much less what else he did or didn't do in the few seconds that he probably had between realizing that Pink was heading towards him and the actual collision. The fact that Purple was also in motion explains why he didn't reverse his train in an attempt to ourrun Pink. Reversing either requires a full stop or a rather complicated procedure when in motion, and even then the motors and the train won't react all that well to suddenly being thrown into reverse.


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## AlanB (Jul 7, 2009)

> The National Transportation Safety Board said Monday it will investigate the deadly collision on Walt Disney World's famous monorail, an unprecedented move by a federal agency best known for probing commercial airline crashes.
> The announcement came as others looking into Sunday's crash appeared to zero in on what may have been a botched attempt to switch a train from one track to another.


The full story from the Orlando Sentinal.

The story also confirms what has been widely discussed at a few Disney site, that monorail Pink had left the Ticket & Transportation Center (TTC) from what's called the Concourse platform that serves the Epcot loop. Pink was supposed to pull forward to clear a switch that would allow it to move onto the Express loop or Outer beam, which would take it to the barn for the night.

And it has been confirmed that all three loops returned to operation on Monday afternoon. The article above however states that for the moment, cab rides are out.


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## Tony (Jul 7, 2009)

AlanB said:


> The full story from the Orlando Sentinal.


Another snip from that article, pertaining to some questions raised here already...



> The NTSB investigation is unprecedented. Not only has the federal agency never before sought to investigate a monorail crash at either Disney World or at Disneyland in California, Knudson said he could not recall a single investigation involving an all-private transit system operating on private land. But he said NTSB officials determined they have jurisdiction in this case.


I guess Disney's "self government" doesn't make them as immune as they might have once thought.


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## George Harris (Jul 7, 2009)

> The National Transportation Safety Board said Monday it will investigate the deadly collision on Walt Disney World's famous monorail, an unprecedented move by a federal agency best known for probing commercial airline crashes.
> from the Orlando Sentinal.


Classic reporter ignorance, since NTSB investigates all significant railroad accidents, plus pipelines, inland waterways and a even some serious highway accidents


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## Chris J. (Jul 7, 2009)

George Harris said:


> 1. It has been said that all safety rules are written in blood.


The blood of those who's death caused the rule to come into place. Sadly that's generally how these rules come about.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 7, 2009)

George Harris said:


> Classic reporter ignorance, since NTSB investigates all significant railroad accidents, plus pipelines, inland waterways and a even some serious highway accidents


How does that invalidate the claim that the NTSB is best known by the general public for investigating airplane crashes?


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## George Harris (Jul 7, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Classic reporter ignorance, since NTSB investigates all significant railroad accidents, plus pipelines, inland waterways and a even some serious highway accidents
> ...


Point taken


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 7, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Classic reporter ignorance, since NTSB investigates all significant railroad accidents, plus pipelines, inland waterways and a even some serious highway accidents
> ...


It doesn't, but it certainly invalidates the concept of "unprecedented"


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## Ispolkom (Jul 7, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


I'm sure the actual concept of "unprecedented" is as vague to most writers as that of "unique." I'd wager than in ten years the phrase "most unique" is standard English, if it isn't already. We live in fallen times.


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## jackal (Jul 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


As a student (but not practitioner!) of newswriting style, I could see how the reporter could have meant it as two separate, unrelated statements: that the move was unprecedented (because it's on private property) and that it was done by an agency most people know because of investigations of airline crashes. News writers tend to write compactly, even if sometimes the sentence doesn't quite make as much sense as it would written out a little longer, and things like this often pop up. It's possible the reporter didn't even see how it could be misinterpreted (because in his/her mind, it was two separate concepts), and then the copyeditor wouldn't think to fix it because to the copyeditor, it very well may be unprecedented for what he/she thinks is an airline crash investigation agency to investigate a monorail accident.

Or it is possible the reporter was indeed ignorant. It's hard to tell.

(One of the most annoying news terms I've ever seen is "forced the ouster of"--can't they just use normal English and say "forced out"? That's one rare example where newsspeak [not newspeak!!] is longer than the equivalent normal, conversational English...)


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## RTOlson (Jul 8, 2009)

I think we can enjoy a discussion about semantics without calling someone ignorant (besides it was the NTSB agent who said the investigation was unprecedented).

If the NTSB investigation isn't "unprecedented," then you guys should be able to cite precedent for several points:

- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.

- A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.

- A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.

I can only cite precedent for one point — most railroad incidents likely involve railroads (private companies) operating private transport (their trains) largely on private property (their tracks and rights-of-way).

Aside from that, the Orlando Sentinel story cites several other reasons why this NTSB investigation is unique in several ways, seemingly without precedent (hence, its status as "unprecedented").


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## jackal (Jul 8, 2009)

Hey...as someone with a degree in journalism, I have no problem admitting that reporters are often ignorant of the subjects they cover...


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## AlanB (Jul 8, 2009)

jackal said:


> Hey...as someone with a degree in journalism, I have no problem admitting that reporters are often ignorant of the subjects they cover...


Can we quote you on that? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> > Hey...as someone with a degree in journalism, I have no problem admitting that reporters are often ignorant of the subjects they cover...
> ...


you just did :lol:


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## tp49 (Jul 8, 2009)

jackal said:


> Hey...as someone with a degree in journalism, I have no problem admitting that reporters are often ignorant of the subjects they cover...


Is that on or off the record?


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## PRR 60 (Jul 8, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> I think we can enjoy a discussion about semantics without calling someone ignorant (besides it was the NTSB agent who said the investigation was unprecedented).
> If the NTSB investigation isn't "unprecedented," then you guys should be able to cite precedent for several points:
> 
> - A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.
> ...


Of course, the Walt Disney World monorail is a unique situation. It certainly is not an amusement park ride (the Disneyland version is closer to that). It is in every way a mass transit system and moves more people more miles than many conventional rail transit systems. The public can purchase tickets and ride, so the ownership becomes moot. It serves the public, performs primarily a transportaion function, so it is not a stretch to say it is public transportation. The NTSB has broad power to assert jurisdiction of accidents involving public transporation.

The control and operation of the Disney monorail is analogous to rail transit, so it makes sense that the investigatory body would be the people familiar with transportation. I suspect the Disney is quite satisfied that the NTSB exercised jurisdiction since the findings will now have greater credibility and usefulness than what a local or state amusement park ride inspector could have provided.


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## Tony (Jul 8, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> It is in every way a mass transit system and moves more people more miles than many conventional rail transit systems. The public can purchase tickets and ride, so the ownership becomes moot.


Can the public purchase just a ticket to ride the Disney monorail? If so, were would one ride to/from (since you would not have any park admission nor be an on-property hotel guest)?

Or is riding the monorail simply a courtesy Disney extends to its paid guests?


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## Ryan (Jul 8, 2009)

As I recall (I've been there once, about 2 years ago), anyone can just walk up and ride the monorail from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom without a ticket for anything - once you get to the Magic Kingdom stop, you get off and walk a short distance to the park gate where you present your ticket for admission.

Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me though...


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jul 8, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me though...


:lol: I could think of a group of people who would travel on a monorail for no reason. Its part of being a rail fan :lol: Although I don't know if OTOL considers it a transit system.


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## Tony (Jul 8, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> As I recall (I've been there once, about 2 years ago), anyone can just walk up and ride the monorail from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom without a ticket for anything - once you get to the Magic Kingdom stop, you get off and walk a short distance to the park gate where you present your ticket for admission.


Can one walk to the TTC, without being a Disney guest? Can one really walk onto WDW grounds?


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## Ryan (Jul 8, 2009)

We drove in, I'm pretty sure that we had to pay to park, but other than that there were no impediments. It'd be a pretty long walk from what I remember, but there didn't seem to be anything to stop you.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 8, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> I'm sure the actual concept of "unprecedented" is as vague to most writers as that of "unique." I'd wager than in ten years the phrase "most unique" is standard English, if it isn't already. We live in fallen times.


I do not like vagueness in language. The English language is capable of great precision, and I can't stand it when people keep trying to kill it by improperly using words interchangeably.

"Unprecedented" combines the prefix "un", the word "precedent", and the suffix "ed". A "precedent" is something that has happened in the past that sets the standard for forthcoming situations. The suffix "un" is a negator implying the absence of the word it precedes. "Ed" is a suffix placed to demonstrate the word it succeeds took place in the past.

"Unprecedented" means, very specifically, "Nothing in the past has taken place to set the standards for this future event." Thus, the statement is, unquestionably, inaccurate. Many things have taken place to set various standards for this. Rail crashes. The NTSB investigating same. The NTSB investigating accidents relating to CTC controlled mass transit- hell the DC crash a few days ago stands as an example. There are many precedents for this. Not all of this is charted territory, but there are precedents. So it isn't unprecedented.

Unique? Almost every accident is unique. Unusual? Yes, this accident is unusual. Different then what has come before it? Certainly. But unprecedented? Not in the least. People should chose words more carefully.


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## AlanB (Jul 8, 2009)

Tony said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > As I recall (I've been there once, about 2 years ago), anyone can just walk up and ride the monorail from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom without a ticket for anything - once you get to the Magic Kingdom stop, you get off and walk a short distance to the park gate where you present your ticket for admission.
> ...


I don't believe that one can just walk to the TTC, if memory serves none of the roads that lead there from outside the World have sidewalks. However, one could walk from Outside to Downtown Disney or take a local bus or drive to the free parking lot there. At that point, you could board a free Disney bus to the TTC or Epcot for that matter, and then ride the monorail.

At one point many years ago, they used to check to see that one had either a resort ID or a World Pass/ticket coupon book. At that time, failure to have either would have resulted in your being turned away. If I had to guess, I'd say it's going on 15 to 20 years now since they've stopped asking for proof. I think that there is still a disclaimer that you're supposed to be a resort guest or holding a World Passport to board any form of Disney Transportation, but in the interests of guest convienence and keeping costs down, they never ask for proof anymore.


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## Tony (Jul 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> "Unprecedented" means, very specifically, "Nothing in the past has taken place to set the standards for this future event." Thus, the statement is, unquestionably, inaccurate. Many things have taken place to set various standards for this. Rail crashes. The NTSB investigating same. The NTSB investigating accidents relating to CTC controlled mass transit- hell the DC crash a few days ago stands as an example. There are many precedents for this. Not all of this is charted territory, but there are precedents. So it isn't unprecedented.


As RTOlson previously asked,



> cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.
> 
> - A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.
> 
> - A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 8, 2009)

Having unique aspects and being unprecedented are two different things. The journalist butchered the English language. Period.


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## RTOlson (Jul 8, 2009)

Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.

I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.
> 
> I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.


The online version of Miriam-Webster is an embarrassment. My real dictionary states that it means without precedent, and defines precedent as: N, something done or said that may serve or be adduced as an example, reason, or justification for a subsequent act of a like kind.

Under that definition, there are clearly precedents. My dictionary, THE definitive dictionary of the American English language, in my opinion, is Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition. My particular copy is copyrighted 1968 and printed in 1969.


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## TampAGS (Jul 9, 2009)

AlanB said:


> It is unclear at this point if the operator who was killed had started to slow his train or not, much less what else he did or didn't do in the few seconds that he probably had between realizing that Pink was heading towards him and the actual collision. The fact that Purple was also in motion explains why he didn't reverse his train in an attempt to ourrun Pink. Reversing either requires a full stop or a rather complicated procedure when in motion, and even then the motors and the train won't react all that well to suddenly being thrown into reverse.


Local Orlando news reported tonight that the initial findings of the NTSB indicate that the pilot did indeed attempt to reverse the purple train immediately before the pink train crashed into his cockpit.

 

The pink train had advanced beyond the Transportation Center where it was supposed to have cleared a switch which would have sent it onto an alternate track when it began its reverse trip. For whatever reason, that switch did not activate and the pink train reversed down the same track right back into the Transportation Center where the collision occurred. The NTSB is now focusing on what caused the failure of that switch.

 

The pilot's funeral services took place today in Kissimmee. He was recalled as describing his duties at the helm of Disney's Monorails as "a dream job". Video taken by a family who had once ridden with him at the front of a train gives a glimpse of him sharing his enjoyment of the train with park guests: WESH-TV video of family with Monorail Pilot 

 

Also announced was the fact that the manager on-duty of the Monorail system was off-property at the time when the accident occurred. They pointed out that it isn't customary for managers to eyeball the trains for the length of their shift, but noted that the factor of being away from Disney property is likely to come under heavy scrutiny.

 

A link to tonight's story is here: WESH-TV: Monorail Pilot Who Died Stopped, Tried to Back Up


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## RTOlson (Jul 9, 2009)

So ...



> cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.
> 
> - A previous case of NTSB investigating a monorail accident at Disneyland or Walt Disney World.
> 
> - A previous NTSB investigation of any amusement park attraction, ride or transport.


So far, unprecedented is batting 2 of 3...

Edit to add: I think I'll lay off the point after this post. I believe that there are many aspects of this investigation that are unprecedented (enough to justify the reporter's use of the phrase). Given the different citations for "unprecedented," I also believe that the definition of the word is flexible enough to accommodate many different interpretations.

Now, there are also other elements of this case that are commonplace -- the NTSB is sending humans to conduct the investigation, the NTSB is likely filing reports about the investigation, they had a spokesman talk to the press, etc.

I am a reporter so I am defending the craft and the original writer. However, I would just ask that people consider the possibility that the use of the word is OK instead of automatically assuming that someone is ignorant or stupid because their use of the English language or their take on the situation doesn't fully coincide with theirs.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> So ...
> 
> 
> > cite precedent for several points:- A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.
> ...


That's what I find so utterly disgusting about newer editions. They suggest that words are flexible. You can make them flexible, but only at a loss in precision, and I hate when it becomes difficult to communicate because people start using words inappropriately. As a reporter, you should be ashamed of yourself for condoning such behavior and, indeed, arguing on its behalf.


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## GG-1 (Jul 9, 2009)

Aloha

Adding to an earlier post here is a link to the NTSB Statement


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## Tony (Jul 9, 2009)

> There are indications that the operator of the Purple train had brought the train to a stop and had attempted to put the train in reverse prior to the collision.


Ah, so the Purple train pilot did see the Pink train barreling toward him, and did attempt to "peel out in reverse".

I guess that puts to rest the "why didn't he?" claim, and the supposition that he was too inexperienced to attempt such.


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## whistler (Jul 9, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> Ahem - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:Unprecedented - having no precedent: novel, unexampled.
> 
> I think there are enough "unexampled" aspects of this case to say it was unprecedented. No one has been able to cite examples for two of the three qualities of this unique, novel, unexampled, unprecedented investigation.



Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

whistler said:


> Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.


Among many. That's my point. There are many things in the past that set the standard for this, an investigation of an entirely private transportation system inside a tourist attraction by the National Transportation Safety Board.

The above set of words is unique:


I have never before typed the above set of words.

I didn't do it before at 12:26.

I didn't do it before on a Thursday.

I didn't do it before on Amtrak Unlimited.

I didn't do it before on a July 9th.

I didn't do it before in the year 2009.

To my knowledge, I have never before argued about the word "unprecedented."


All of these things are unique aspects of my above paragraph. It is unique in so many different ways. And yet, as others will admit, this is in the style of many posts I have made that are:


Argumentative.

About tiny, unimportant (to most people) things.

Involve inappropriate usage of the English language.

In regard to items almost irrelevant to the original topic.


In fact, some people might say this is a typical GML argument. There is precedent for me arguing about stuff like this. Its a unique argument, yes. It is not, in the least, unprecedented.


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## Tony (Jul 9, 2009)

As the investigation continues to unfold...

Disney Monorail Errors Investigated


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## George Harris (Jul 9, 2009)

For the legal base of NTSB involvement, here is what is probably the relevant statement giving the NTSB the authority investigate this accident. It is a quote from the Code of Federal Regulations part that gives the makeup, mission, and authority for the National Transportation Board.

Reference: 49CFR831:



> PART 831—ACCIDENT/INCIDENT INVESTIGATION PROCEDURES
> Authority: Independent Safety Board Act of 1974, as amended (49 U.S.C. 1101 et seq. ); Federal Aviation Act of 1958, as amended (49 U.S.C. 40101 et seq. ).
> 
> Source: 53 FR 15847, May 4, 1988, unless otherwise noted.
> ...


Note that in 831.3 any of the various directors "may order an investigation into any accident or incident" which in combination with the list in 831.2 ( c ), means that if they choose to investigate a particular accident in any form of transport that moves people or freight they can do so simply by deciding to do so.


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## PRR 60 (Jul 9, 2009)

And, it should be noted, that the NTSB notified Disney very shortly after the accident that they intended to conduct the investigation, and Disney willingly agreed without the NTSB having to exercise any legal authority.


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## VentureForth (Jul 10, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > HokieNav said:
> ...


You are quite correct, Alan. Though the intent of ANY of the transportation modes are officially for "Resort Guests Only" and "Resort ID Required," it is not enforced. It wasn't when I worked there 15 years ago, and it wasn't last month. They have the right to enforce it, though, at any time. It won't cost anything to help except goodwill for the few that like to mooch.

That being said, they do make it hard to avoid parking fees by having most busses from public access points go to the hotels rather tha to a Park - that way, it'll take you 45 - 60 minutes, changing busses at least once, to get a free ride to any of the major parks.

First thing I did when I took my family there last month was hop on the Sassgalooga River Boat and take a ride from Downtown Disney to Port Orleans. No I'd check, no problem.

Riding the monorail is a bit more difficult because you pretty much have to pony up the $10 parking to get to the TTC. Oh, you could make a dinner reservation at the Contemporary and get in free and ride all you want. But dinner will cost you WAY more than $10! 

As for the NTSB, I'll change my attitude towards their jurisdiction a bit - They're the Feds and they have as much right to investigate the monorail as the FDA has to investigate any restaurant on site and OSHA has to investigate an occupational hazzard on site. However, I will say that these entities probably have an easier time getting access to investigate a tragedy as opposed to pre-emptive inspections.

Anyone ever see a Health Department scorecard at a Disney food place? They do have a bit of influence...


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## Tony (Jul 10, 2009)

Three Disney monorail workers placed on leave after crash


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## phase90 (Jul 14, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> I think we can enjoy a discussion about semantics without calling someone ignorant (besides it was the NTSB agent who said the investigation was unprecedented).
> If the NTSB investigation isn't "unprecedented," then you guys should be able to cite precedent for several points:
> 
> - A previous case of NTSB investigating all-private transport operating on private property.
> ...


The only thing unprecedented about it is it is the first fatality on the Disneyworld monorail.


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## phase90 (Jul 14, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> whistler said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't the NTSB's investigation into the Gettysburg Railroad steam engine explosion be the precedent, at least one of them? At least it appears to me to be.
> ...


You've got a surplus of time on your hands to micro-manage words like that. I'm wagering you're a govt. employee - not necesarrily a govt. worker - 2 different things.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 15, 2009)

phase90 said:


> You've got a surplus of time on your hands to micro-manage words like that. I'm wagering you're a govt. employee - not necesarrily a govt. worker - 2 different things.


To be honest, I do it without thought. I'm sure people notice that my frequency of typoing- or simply leaving out words I meant to type- is very high. I don't micro-manage words at all. I just have clear definitions of each one in my head. Unlike far too many Americans, it seems, I happen to have a strong command of the English language. I took Latin when I was in high school, I speak Yiddish and Hebrew quite fluently, and I can communicate successfully in Arabic and German. I guess language is a natural strength of mine.

As for what I do, you're right. I have way too much time on my hands. But unlike a government employee, at least I have the decency to not collect a pay check for my not working- I'm unemployed. I don't collect unemployment either. I'm an honestly unemployed, no income bum. I'm looking for, have been looking for, work as a trainman, but the freights aren't exactly hiring now.


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## VentureForth (Jul 20, 2009)

According to Netcot.com, they have implemented a lot of new safety regulations - some of which [byGolly!] used to be implemented but were eliminated to decrease dwell and loading/unloading times [/byGolly!].

Must have been taken out by Eisner. Heck, when I was at Tokyo Disneyland and worked the JUNGLE CRUISE, no fewer than three people were involved in switching a boat back off stage. And at 5 knots, we were hardly in danger of injuring a guest.

Biggest lost for guests is no more riding in the cab. That's truly a shame, as it gave MANY guests a really special opportunity to enjoy the magic. I understand the ban, expected it, but don't like it.


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## Rafi (Jul 20, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> Biggest lost for guests is no more riding in the cab. That's truly a shame, as it gave MANY guests a really special opportunity to enjoy the magic. I understand the ban, expected it, but don't like it.


And it was one of those perks that truly rang of Walt Disney, a railfan himself who was known to enjoy cab rides immensely. It seemed only fitting that you could get that experience at his back yard, so to speak. It's so unfortunate to see that experience go away. Again, expected, but I don't like it either.

Rafi


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## Neil_M (Jul 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> To be honest, I do it without thought. I'm sure people notice that my frequency of typoing- or simply leaving out words I meant to type- is very high. I don't micro-manage words at all. I just have clear definitions of each one in my head. Unlike far too many Americans, it seems, I happen to have a strong command of the English language. I took Latin when I was in high school, I speak Yiddish and Hebrew quite fluently, and I can communicate successfully in Arabic and German. I guess language is a natural strength of mine.
> As for what I do, you're right. I have way too much time on my hands. But unlike a government employee, at least I have the decency to not collect a pay check for my not working- I'm unemployed. I don't collect unemployment either. I'm an honestly unemployed, no income bum. I'm looking for, have been looking for, work as a trainman, but the freights aren't exactly hiring now.


Wow, you are great. tell us how great you are some more......

Honestly unemployed? That's one way of describing it!


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## George Harris (Jul 20, 2009)

Rafi said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Biggest lost for guests is no more riding in the cab. That's truly a shame, as it gave MANY guests a really special opportunity to enjoy the magic. I understand the ban, expected it, but don't like it.
> ...


One of my favorites concerning Disney:

After Eisner was in charge but while Roy Disney was still around and had his hand in it:

There was one of these hot air sessions where Eisner was talking about "branding", which for those who don't know is one of the favoirte corporate-speak buzz words of recent years.

Roy Disney's response: "Branding is something you do to cattle."


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## VentureForth (Jul 21, 2009)

I never met Roy, but I met Roy Disney Jr's wife, Patty. I was driving her, Stanley Gold (a board member) and his wife around and Patty commented on how she thought it was weird seeing her name on EVERYTHING. Stanley turned to her and said, "You kidding? I'm soaking it all up!"


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## PaulM (Jul 22, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> We drove in, I'm pretty sure that we had to pay to park, but other than that there were no impediments. It'd be a pretty long walk from what I remember, but there didn't seem to be anything to stop you.


Years ago after riding Amtrak to Orlando, I tried to bike to WDW. No sooner did I turn into the four lane highway on Disney property than I and my bike was picked up by Disney police. Once it was established that I had the price of a ticket, everything was cool.

Seems Disney had been besieged by tramps and bums arriving on bicycle. :lol:


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