# Food on the Northeast Regional Trains



## Anderson (Nov 16, 2010)

Well, for a first post, this isn't going to be a fun topic for me, but it's something that I was hoping somebody could help me puzzle through: I live not far from the Newport News Amtrak station, out at the far end of the Amtrak line. The station is probably doomed if they get the line going south of the river (I had a nice chat with a local politician on this topic...Amtrak to Virginia Beach makes _far_ more sense than does Amtrak to Newport News, from a sales standpoint), but that is neither here nor there.

The thing that has me pulling my hair out is the food service on the Northeast Regional trains. Now, while I do recognize why they don't have a full-service dining car as far as the cost goes, what I'm wondering is why they haven't implemented something more akin to what they have on the Acela service for at least Business Class. As it stands, I am more inclined to drive up to Richmond to catch a "named" train for want of better service than I am to get the one in my backyard because the best I can reasonably hope for is a warmed-up meatball sub. Looking at the travel times on the Richmond-Boston runs, it seems a bit jarring not to have a more expensive (and higher-quality) dining option available for what is a 4-12 hour ride between most of the main stations (Boston-NYC and NYC-DC are four hours or so apiece; Richmond-DC is two hours while Lynchburg-DC and Newport News-DC are about four hours as well)...the gross margins on these services seem to be large enough to justify some limited changes here (particularly considering the sheer volume of the service).


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## Acela150 (Nov 17, 2010)

Keep in mind we are NOT related to Amtrak. But the reason is not only because the cost is high is that Amtrak is tight on single level diners. Also It would only sell two meals from RVR to BOS. Serving Breakfast and Lunch. With a cafe people can come and go to the cafe as they please. While it's not the best food it gets passengers by for a few hours. Even for a train from NPN to BOS 3 meals only. It's nothing like the SS or SM where Amtrak gets 4 or 5 meals out of the diner.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Nov 17, 2010)

Quite simple food service has never made a railroad money. This is a problem that existed before Amtrak over passenger trains in 1971. Congress doesn't want to spend money on something with no hopes of some kind of return.


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## Anderson (Nov 17, 2010)

Acela150 said:


> Keep in mind we are NOT related to Amtrak. But the reason is not only because the cost is high is that Amtrak is tight on single level diners. Also It would only sell two meals from RVR to BOS. Serving Breakfast and Lunch. With a cafe people can come and go to the cafe as they please. While it's not the best food it gets passengers by for a few hours. Even for a train from NPN to BOS 3 meals only. It's nothing like the SS or SM where Amtrak gets 4 or 5 meals out of the diner.


Acela150,

I know that...I've actually lurked here a few times before, and I've read the disclaimers. That said, this is likely to be my only complain-y post (my experiences have always been pretty good, even when I was atrociously late)...and I did have a funny feeling that asking here was the most productive way to get an answer.

I didn't realize they were able to pack a fourth meal out on the Slivers...southbound, SS seems to do Lunch-Dinner-Breakfast-Lunch, but SM starts with Dinner and doesn't seem to make it to dinner on day 2 (at least presuming an on-time schedule) as it pulls into Miami at about 7 PM. 'course, if they're behind I know they might have time for it, but my experience is that they rarely pack for an extra meal if they're behind (the waste and extra cost being prohibitive). Northbound, it seems to be Lunch-Dinner-Breakfast on the SM, and Lunch-Dinner-Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner(!) on the SS (though the second dinner is dubious with a 7:16 arrival time).

Long Train Runnin',

Fair point, and that's something that I didn't know. I'm still trying to nail down the economics of Amtrak. I knew it brought in substantial residual income, but the net cost is...well, let's just say that they make it _very_ easy to know how much it brings in when it comes to their annual reports, but just awful to figure out what it takes to generate that cost. 'course, I also presume that income figure excludes any "income" from the SDS, and the cost would include those expenses (and both would presumably ignore the Acela first class food service as well).


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## abcnews (Nov 17, 2010)

A very good point - and I agree...

I think Amtrak is simply "penny-wise and pound foolish" for the poor dinning offering on the Northeast trains. Whenever I travel (NorthEast Direct)- I just see mobs boarding and departing. I am certain, that on the Northeast trains - a dinning car would put Amtrak over the top - in regards with the competition with airlines. People want a more train friendly approach. Forget the LD Dining car model - forget that. More like a full car that's full length with a Panera Bread type setting. In fact - let Panera Bread have the space. Then add a second car with a full lounge - where they could handle the overflow - No preset meal times - no fancy table settings, just a well stocked Cafe car - with good quality - fresh sandwiches, hot servings of fresh soup. Fine coffee and tea and fresh bakery items on display. And yes - internet. Two cars - but only one serves - the other is all lounge/cafe seating.

Then people can get up - move about and spend money. And then the Northeast trains will become even more popular. Make it more fun for everyone...

In business there is an old saying - you have to spend money to make money. This would be so easy - just start slow with a few trains - "with expanded food service" and eventually add the expanded service to every Northeast train.


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## dlagrua (Nov 17, 2010)

If you dislike the food served in the Amtrak cafe car, why don't you get a cup of coffee to go with whatever you want to eat for breakfast and bring aboard a sandwich and a drink in a small cooler bag for lunch. Many of these cooler bags also have a small compartment for ice so your food will stay good for 8 hours. When I take the NE regional (usually for a 2-3 hr trip) I always board with my meal and buy supplementary snacks and drinks in the cafe car. You will not see full diner service made available on the NE Corridor- there are no diners to spare and as pointed out they don't make money. The diner car will remain only as a convenience to *Long distance overnight travelers *


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## Ryan (Nov 17, 2010)

I agree that something in between a regular dining car and the current cafe offerings would be welcomed (and could make money if operated correctly). On a 12 hour train trip, it'd be nice to get a decent hot meal somewhere in between.


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## me_little_me (Nov 17, 2010)

abcnews said:


> A very good point - and I agree...
> 
> I think Amtrak is simply "penny-wise and pound foolish" for the poor dinning offering on the Northeast trains. Whenever I travel (NorthEast Direct)- I just see mobs boarding and departing. I am certain, that on the Northeast trains - a dinning car would put Amtrak over the top - in regards with the competition with airlines. People want a more train friendly approach. Forget the LD Dining car model - forget that. More like a full car that's full length with a Panera Bread type setting. In fact - let Panera Bread have the space. Then add a second car with a full lounge - where they could handle the overflow - No preset meal times - no fancy table settings, just a well stocked Cafe car - with good quality - fresh sandwiches, hot servings of fresh soup. Fine coffee and tea and fresh bakery items on display. And yes - internet. Two cars - but only one serves - the other is all lounge/cafe seating.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the internet part as it will encourage people to loiter and in a dining car, you want them to buy, eat and go. The internet can be put in the coach cars which will encourage loiterers to go back to their seats.

As to two cars, on might be a good start with the second if the income warrants it.

As to the food, soup might be a problem due to spills but breakfast including fresh pastries and a grill to cook eggs would be great. For lunch, more than a microwave to reheat.

This would be good on more than just Regionals. The Carolinian and other LD trains with nothing more than a MV could have the same.


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## the_traveler (Nov 17, 2010)

abcnews said:


> A very good point - and I agree...
> 
> I think Amtrak is simply "penny-wise and pound foolish" for the poor dinning offering on the Northeast trains. Whenever I travel (NorthEast Direct)- I just see mobs boarding and departing. I am certain, that on the Northeast trains - a dinning car would put Amtrak over the top - in regards with the competition with airlines. People want a more train friendly approach. Forget the LD Dining car model - forget that. More like a full car that's full length with a Panera Bread type setting. In fact - let Panera Bread have the space. Then add a second car with a full lounge - where they could handle the overflow - No preset meal times - no fancy table settings, just a well stocked Cafe car - with good quality - fresh sandwiches, hot servings of fresh soup. Fine coffee and tea and fresh bakery items on display. And yes - internet. Two cars - but only one serves - the other is all lounge/cafe seating.
> 
> ...


While I agree, if somebody is traveling all the way from (say) RVR to BOS. But many people are on only "short" distances - maybe like NYP-PHL. Do you think they can make a reservation, be called, eat, and still have time to get off in a couple of hours?




Many stops on the NEC are only 15-25 minutes apart!

I was on the NEC last night and this morning KIN-BOS-NYP-WAS-KIN, and saw the passengers turn over at least 4-5 times!





As for the Panera idea - Subway tried it on Empire Service trains from ALB to NYP a few years back. It ceased shortly after it began.


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## AlanB (Nov 17, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> As for the Panera idea - Subway tried it on Empire Service trains from ALB to NYP a few years back. It ceased shortly after it began.


It ceased because of union protests, not because they couldn't make money. They didn't even run the service for 2 full days IIRC, hardly enough time to make a determination on profitability.


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## AlanB (Nov 17, 2010)

Food service on the corridor has always been a problem for Amtrak. In part because many people just carry their own foodstuffs onboard, rather than pay Amtrak's much higher prices.

For trains that remain within the bounds of Boston-NY-DC, I don't expect that we'll ever see much change to things. However, trains that continue south of DC could perhaps one day see changes, depending on the current whims of Amtrak funding. Those trains are certainly ripe for something better than just standard cafes.

Ideally what would probably be best would be if Amtrak could get the funding for a set of Viewliner cafe cars. These could then be used to free up what were the Amfleet II cafe cars, now all converted to Diner-Lite cars. While they don't have a grill for say cooking eggs, they do offer a much better and different menu than the standard cafe car.

These Diner-Lites could then be pressed into service on trains like the Vermonter, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, and at least some of the Regionals that run south of DC.

Of course at the moment there is no money for Veiwliner cafe cars.


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## abcnews (Nov 17, 2010)

I would argue that even the many short distance travelers would be very interested in a grill type car - one that was fast on service (like Panera), with good items. You see - if a business traveler is going from Baltimore to Philadelphia - they can at least use that time in their busy day to "eat". We all have to eat. It may be 3:45 or 4 PM - but with business travel - you eat when you get the chance. So I don't see the current Long Distance Dinning car format here. But a nice grill or Deli. "The Railroad Cafe" Maybe add a guitar player on Friday afternoons. Make it a nice environment.

Just create a better train environment.


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## Anderson (Nov 17, 2010)

Well, let's simplify this a bit: Rather than doing anything fancy, offer a few "entree" options on the dining car menu that're kept hot a la what they serve on the Acela in First Class (in terms of meal storage method rather than food quality, necessarily). I understand that strictly on the NYP-WAS run, this doesn't make sense, but for the BOS-RVR trains and the other long-runners coming out of the NEC, I think it probably does, as those trains to the South don't directly compete with the Acela.

Moreover, I think there's an issue of percieved quality: If I know I'm going to have lousy food on the way, am I going to want to take the train? Or am I going to be inclined to say "forget it, it's a lousy day on that train" and start looking at airfares?

My best guess here, by the way, is that there's an attempt to preserve a quality advantage for the Acela (which, IIRC, is making Amtrak a good deal of money via the higher ticket prices). Of course, another rhetorical question then comes up, namely why if Amtrak is pushing the Acela (which I do enjoy taking), why they aren't trying to at least partly NPN-WAS and LYH-WAS tickets combined with Acela tickets to a slight discount? I put in one of those cities to Boston, and I don't even get an _offer_ of a Union Station transfer.

Edit: Or even at full price...the fact that they'll sell me _other_ two-train options but nothing ever mentions the Acela.


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## Big Iron (Nov 17, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Well, for a first post, this isn't going to be a fun topic for me, but it's something that I was hoping somebody could help me puzzle through: I live not far from the Newport News Amtrak station, out at the far end of the Amtrak line. The station is probably doomed if they get the line going south of the river (I had a nice chat with a local politician on this topic...Amtrak to Virginia Beach makes _far_ more sense than does Amtrak to Newport News, from a sales standpoint), but that is neither here nor there.
> 
> The thing that has me pulling my hair out is the food service on the Northeast Regional trains. Now, while I do recognize why they don't have a full-service dining car as far as the cost goes, what I'm wondering is why they haven't implemented something more akin to what they have on the Acela service for at least Business Class. As it stands, I am more inclined to drive up to Richmond to catch a "named" train for want of better service than I am to get the one in my backyard because the best I can reasonably hope for is a warmed-up meatball sub. Looking at the travel times on the Richmond-Boston runs, it seems a bit jarring not to have a more expensive (and higher-quality) dining option available for what is a 4-12 hour ride between most of the main stations (Boston-NYC and NYC-DC are four hours or so apiece; Richmond-DC is two hours while Lynchburg-DC and Newport News-DC are about four hours as well)...the gross margins on these services seem to be large enough to justify some limited changes here (particularly considering the sheer volume of the service).


To your statement made in the first paragraph. I don't think you need to worry about losing the NPN station stop to Va. Beach. Thelma Drake said in an article in the Richmond Times Dispatch today, and I loosly paraphase, there is no funding for rail projects of any substance in the near future given the current thinking in Washington since the mid-term elections.

The few times I went from NPN to Philly I would load up at the Blue Star Diner which I understand has closed in the past year. Nice place, great country ham, but I'm a sucker for a greasy spoon.


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## Anderson (Nov 17, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Well, for a first post, this isn't going to be a fun topic for me, but it's something that I was hoping somebody could help me puzzle through: I live not far from the Newport News Amtrak station, out at the far end of the Amtrak line. The station is probably doomed if they get the line going south of the river (I had a nice chat with a local politician on this topic...Amtrak to Virginia Beach makes _far_ more sense than does Amtrak to Newport News, from a sales standpoint), but that is neither here nor there.
> ...


Yeah...that was a shame. I don't live too far from there, either, and I never got to go.

It's sort of good to hear we're not likely to lose that line. That said, I think it might even survive a second line going in by the skin of its teeth because of the Williamsburg station, now that I look at the ridership numbers (Williamsburg seems to average about 70 boardings and 70 de-trainings per day year round, which is probably enough to justify the line when combined with RVM (which hasn't been cut in spite of there being RVR as well). It's not a _full_ train, but 70/day is what they were budgeting for when they stuck in the Lynchburg-DC line, and I figure you'd get another 10/day out of NPN (plus the 25/day from RVM) even without the buses to Norfolk bulking things up...and I think 100 boardings/day would be enough to probably sustain the service considering that it's more than the Sunset Ltd does.

Williamsburg can prop the line up for one reason, namely that it's smack in the middle of a tourist destination. I was actually surprised when I saw the figures, though...it's on par with Fredericksburg, which I _think_ has a decent amount of traffic to/from DC due to the Amtrak/VRE deal in place.


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## Ryan (Nov 17, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Edit: Or even at full price...the fact that they'll sell me _other_ two-train options but nothing ever mentions the Acela.


Not even the long distance trains show connections with the Acela - Amtrak doesn't want to provide the guaranteed connection between the Acela and anything.


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## Anderson (Nov 17, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: Or even at full price...the fact that they'll sell me _other_ two-train options but nothing ever mentions the Acela.
> ...


I'd call it stupid if the Acela wasn't selling out often enough that they'd get into a bind whenever the long-distance trains ran late (I've heard rumors of them planning to add cars to the service over the last few years because of this), because I know they are _not_ holding the Acela.


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## AlanB (Nov 18, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: Or even at full price...the fact that they'll sell me _other_ two-train options but nothing ever mentions the Acela.
> ...


Amtrak also heavily discounts those connections to the Regional trains, which is another reason that they don't and won't offer them to Acela. Yes, I suppose that they could still charge full price for the Acelas, but that's sure to raise questions from people and Amtrak seems to like to try to avoid questions like that.


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## AlanB (Nov 18, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Well, let's simplify this a bit: Rather than doing anything fancy, offer a few "entree" options on the dining car menu that're kept hot a la what they serve on the Acela in First Class (in terms of meal storage method rather than food quality, necessarily). I understand that strictly on the NYP-WAS run, this doesn't make sense, but for the BOS-RVR trains and the other long-runners coming out of the NEC, I think it probably does, as those trains to the South don't directly compete with the Acela.
> 
> Moreover, I think there's an issue of percieved quality: If I know I'm going to have lousy food on the way, am I going to want to take the train? Or am I going to be inclined to say "forget it, it's a lousy day on that train" and start looking at airfares?
> 
> ...


Acela entrees aren't kept hot, they're heated up in convection ovens prior to being served to the passengers. Which of course would mean that such meals could technically be given to a cafe attendant for use on Regionals.

Next, yes, a few might do as you suggest. Other's just buy food prior to getting on the train.

I think that part of the problem here is that many years ago food service on the trains was on a decline. That's one reason that Amtrak started including meals in the dining car in the price of the tickets, to justify the dining cars continuance. Technology has changed some of the rules since then, but Amtrak hasn't yet fully adjusted to some of those changes. Congress hasn't exactly helped matters either with their mandate a few years back that Amtrak cut food service loses.

That led to SDS, diner-lites, staffing cuts, plastic plates, and other changes. Only now is Amtrak starting to return some of the things that were cut back then, as they're realizing that one can only do so much and cut so much before the product suffers. And the product is both the food and the service to the passengers.

If we don't start getting slammed again in Congress by the current anti-rail waves seen in a few states during this election, who knows what might come to pass.

And as noted, Amtrak doesn't want to be in the position of holding Acela's. Hence no connections.


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## Anderson (Nov 18, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Well, let's simplify this a bit: Rather than doing anything fancy, offer a few "entree" options on the dining car menu that're kept hot a la what they serve on the Acela in First Class (in terms of meal storage method rather than food quality, necessarily). I understand that strictly on the NYP-WAS run, this doesn't make sense, but for the BOS-RVR trains and the other long-runners coming out of the NEC, I think it probably does, as those trains to the South don't directly compete with the Acela.
> ...


In defense of the voters (and as I noted elsewhere), I don't think there was so much an anti-rail wave per se as much as an "anti-bloat" wave, with rail getting caught as collateral damage. At least, that's been my interpretation: Voters didn't get angry at the HSR spending, they got angry at the other $250 billion that got thrown at things plus the corporate bailouts...and rail got stuck in the process. It's a toxic environment for government spending in general right now, but that's more a product of the _other_ stuff getting out of control and rail simply getting caught in the backlash.

Also, as an amusing afterthought, I forgot that Drake was speaking as a representative of that rail group rather than as a Congresscritter (she used to represent the 2nd District here), so I did a double take when I heard that name.


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## Amtral_Guest (Nov 18, 2010)

"While I agree, if somebody is traveling all the way from (say) RVR to BOS. But many people are on only "short" distances - maybe like NYP-PHL. Do you think they can make a reservation, be called, eat, and still have time to get off in a couple of hours?



Many stops on the NEC are only 15-25 minutes apart!"

Back during the summer of 1975, I regularly rode from Philly to New York to visit my girlfriend. They still had diners on the NEC trains. I would leave my seat at about Trenton, walk to the diner, get seated (no reservations), order a meal, get served, eat it, pay, and be back at my seat by Newark. And the workers were all unionized, too! OK, the trains were a little slower back then, but not all that much. They had three choices Fish for $2, Chicken for $3 and a steak for $8. (That's $8, $12, and $32 in today's money. Heck, back then a Big Mac, fries and soda was $1.50 or so, and in the diner, t was a full meal.) And they were doing a pretty good business, as I recall.


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## Anderson (Nov 19, 2010)

Amtral_Guest said:


> "While I agree, if somebody is traveling all the way from (say) RVR to BOS. But many people are on only "short" distances - maybe like NYP-PHL. Do you think they can make a reservation, be called, eat, and still have time to get off in a couple of hours?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PHL-NYP seems a bit short to run a profitable meal service on alone (I know a meal service _can_ be done, but most people won't bother, and I'll admit that the fraction isn't likely to be enough to make it worthwhile when McDonalds and so forth are operating in Penn Station _and_ in Union Station in DC...not to mention, probably in 30th Street as well), but I also know that about 4/5 of those trains run down to DC as well (36 vs. 46). A bit under half go to Boston, but many of those are Acelas (19 vs. 46). WAS-NYP _might_ be workable, but again...you're "only" looking at four hours. Here, your best bet is slightly beefing up the cafe car. However, on RVR-NYP or LYH-NYP, you're looking at 6-8 hours...enough time to cover at _least_ one main meal while in transit (particularly at 8 hours...that's bordering on the breakfast-dinner gap for a bunch of folks).

The rub, IMHO, is this: It's working on the Acela (the food service in coach there is better than on the normal Northeast Regional trains...no, it's not sit-down dining, but it's substantially better than the aforementioned meatball sub), as far as I know, and Amtrak won't do connections with the Acela for what are fairly decent reasons. The Regional train also does more business, and I think the Acela is boxed up against a limit in terms of capacity (the 4:00 PM DC-Boston train is _already_ sold out for tomorrow, and Coach is sold out for the 3PM, 2PM, and 1PM runs as well...it's not like I'm looking at Tuesday or Wednesday of next week here, either, which are their own animals), so it's not like they're desperate to fill seats on the Acela for a lot of runs.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Nov 19, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Amtral_Guest said:
> 
> 
> > "While I agree, if somebody is traveling all the way from (say) RVR to BOS. But many people are on only "short" distances - maybe like NYP-PHL. Do you think they can make a reservation, be called, eat, and still have time to get off in a couple of hours?
> ...


30th Street has a quite a large food court and depending on the schedule of your Keystone or if you are on the Pennsylvanian I have heard the crew suggest to passengers that they would have time if they were careful and went quickly they could grab something from the food court. I guess on the Keystones it makes a little more sense since there is 0 food service available on board.


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