# Caltrain News



## sechs (Aug 8, 2009)

The Caltrain board voted for several changes to close the railroad's budget gap. Among them, an increase in parking fees, a ~24% increase the cost of the corporate "Go Pass," and the elimination of eight midday trains (four in each direction).

http://www.caltrain.com/news_2009_07_02_bo...es_changes.html

Caltrain also recently moved the horns back to the top of its locomotives and cab cars. Apparently, the sound produced from the underside location did not comply with FRA standards. They were moved to the undersides to address noise concerns. Instead, Caltrain will begin installing regulator valves to reduce the horns' volume.

http://www.caltrain.com/news_2009_07_29_horns.html

http://www.caltrain.com/news_2009_07_31_horns.html


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## DET63 (Aug 10, 2009)

> The Caltrain board voted for several changes to close the railroad's budget gap. Among them, an increase in parking fees, a ~24% increase the cost of the corporate "Go Pass," and the elimination of eight midday trains (four in each direction).


Nothing like trimming back service just when energy and economic issues might make the train attractive for more passengers.

From the second link in the OP:



> “We have to balance neighborhood concerns against the need for safety,” said Caltrain Deputy CEO Chuck Harvey. “It is important for people to remember that the engineers do not sound the horn gratuitously. They sound the horn to save lives and to comply with FRA requirements. We ask for the public’s patience while we attempt to adjust the horns.”


This will come as news to Volkris, who seems to believe that trains sound their horns primarily to please foamers.

From the last link in the OP:



> Caltrain moved the horns from underneath the trains to the top of the trains when it was discovered that the horns could not produce the sequential blasts required by federal law. This increased the volume and the range of the sound.


So putting the horns down low meant they couldn't go "toot-toot-tweet-toot"?


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## sechs (Aug 11, 2009)

To be honest, I'm not sure that those midday trains will be greatly missed. It will be inconvenient, and riders will be lost; but, I really don't expect it to be a lot of people. Even when the economy was good, I never saw one of those trains more than half full.

As for the horns.... I don't even know what they're talking about. I do know that the horns are now much louder and seem to have different tonal quality. I used to be able to easily tell the difference between a Caltrain train and a UP freight running on the tracks near my house; now I can't.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 12, 2009)

sechs said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure that those midday trains will be greatly missed. It will be inconvenient, and riders will be lost; but, I really don't expect it to be a lot of people. Even when the economy was good, I never saw one of those trains more than half full.
> As for the horns.... I don't even know what they're talking about. I do know that the horns are now much louder and seem to have different tonal quality. I used to be able to easily tell the difference between a Caltrain train and a UP freight running on the tracks near my house; now I can't.


You're very much mistaken. One of the major points in deciding whether the train works for you is knowing it can and will be there when you need it. Cut back the last train out at night, the one that often runs with a quarter load. Ridership will drop drastically. Because people ride that train? No. Because them knowing that train exists makes them confident about using the train. They know a late train is available, should things happen and they need to get home late.


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## Neil_M (Aug 12, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> You're very much mistaken. One of the major points in deciding whether the train works for you is knowing it can and will be there when you need it. Cut back the last train out at night, the one that often runs with a quarter load. Ridership will drop drastically. Because people ride that train? No. Because them knowing that train exists makes them confident about using the train. They know a late train is available, should things happen and they need to get home late.


I know this might cause the earth to stop spinning, but.....

GML is right. Something like Caltrain needs to be frequent enough that you don't really need to use a timetable to plan your travels.

If there are huge gaps in the service then it becomes less attractive to passengers.

Miss a train and there is another one in 20 minutes, 30 minutes or an hour and you aren't too bothered. Miss one and there is a 4 hour gap and its not so good.....


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## sechs (Aug 13, 2009)

You won't need a timetable after the schedule change any more than you do now. In fact, it will be easier.

Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?

My thought is that the person from New Jersey and the person from London are the ones who are mistaken. It seems clear to me that neither of you even read what the changes were. It's not as if they're cutting all weekend service -- which Caltrain really did do a few years ago during a major track project.


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## Neil_M (Aug 13, 2009)

sechs said:


> Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?


Once an hour at midday? So just the one train then?


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## John Bredin (Aug 13, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of a train coming every sixty or thirty or thirty-two or twenty minutes, depending on where you are on the line, it will come once an hour at midday. Doesn't that mean that people won't be too bothered?
> ...


You have just proven *sechs*' point that you didn't check out the timetable change at Caltrain's website.

Between 10am and 2pm ("midday"), there is right now a train *every half-hour* in each direction. After the schedule change, there will be a train *every hour* in each direction during the same 10a-2p period. In other words, eight round-trips during the mid-day period in question now, four after the change, which is what Caltrain announced.

I note that here in Chicago, only one of Metra's lines (the Electric) has more than one hourly round-trip during the same 10a-2p mid-day period.


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Aug 17, 2009)

Generally Caltrain has ridership that many commuter services can only dream about. Weekends are hourly all stops, but still usually have fairly good ridership. Their route is pretty well urbanized from end to end, and there are big urban areas on both ends so there are a lot of people both on and off at most stops along the way. (Sorry San Fracisco, but San Jose has a larger population within the city limits.) Caught the 8:15 am (first train out from SF) this past Saturday, and there must have been over 200 people standing there when the gate opened.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 18, 2009)

Guest_George Harris_* said:


> Generally Caltrain has ridership that many commuter services can only dream about. Weekends are hourly all stops, but still usually have fairly good ridership. Their route is pretty well urbanized from end to end, and there are big urban areas on both ends so there are a lot of people both on and off at most stops along the way. (Sorry San Fracisco, but San Jose has a larger population within the city limits.) Caught the 8:15 am (first train out from SF) this past Saturday, and there must have been over 200 people standing there when the gate opened.


The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.

If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.


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## tp49 (Aug 18, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Guest_George Harris_* said:
> 
> 
> > Generally Caltrain has ridership that many commuter services can only dream about. Weekends are hourly all stops, but still usually have fairly good ridership. Their route is pretty well urbanized from end to end, and there are big urban areas on both ends so there are a lot of people both on and off at most stops along the way. (Sorry San Fracisco, but San Jose has a larger population within the city limits.) Caught the 8:15 am (first train out from SF) this past Saturday, and there must have been over 200 people standing there when the gate opened.
> ...


During the week the first train out of San Francisco is at 0455 and out of San Jose at 0430. On weekends the first train out of San Francisco is at 0815 as George mentioned. First train out of San Jose is at 0700 on Saturday and 0800 on Sunday.

Caltrain is an effective commuter railroad for what it does in the area it serves. The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation like the LIRR which took me a while to learn after I moved out here.


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## George Harris (Aug 27, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> . I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.


Caltrain is NOT one of the recent start ups like Los Angeles Metrollink, or even the Altamont Express. This line has been running commuter trains for a long time, possibly over a century. I do know for certain for over 60 years. There volume took a huge hit in the 60's ? ? when the freeway version of US 101 opened. Before that the main highway between San Francisco and San Jose had multiple traffic lights and a 45 mph maximum speed limit, according to some long time residents I know.

The line is 47.3 miles long, double track throughout, 136 lb welded rail throughout, 79 mph speed limit, curves permitting, which means for most of the distance other than the first few miles out of San Francisco and the last couple miles before San Jose. The 4 stop "baby bullets" make the run in one hour and the all-stops locals take 90 minutes. Even the all stops locals still beat the best you can do on public transportation otherwise. Oh, yes, there are three rush hour weekdays only trains that go further out to Gilroy. It is a very effective system.


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## sechs (Aug 28, 2009)

tp49 said:


> The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation


I'll also note that it's not culture, but economics that prevent all-night service. Except for events, there isn't the ridership to justify such service.
Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 29, 2009)

sechs said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> > The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation
> ...


No, it is the culture. Its the culture that makes running them economical. NYCTA and LIRR run all-night-service because NYC is truly the city that never sleeps (In fact, so used to NYC I am, it floored me that cities actually do have dead hours!) and as such, it is the city with ridership that never sleeps. I'm not saying there are packed trains all night long at 5 minute intervals, but even at 3 in the morning you can find a downtown Manhattan subway with standing room only in most or all cars- especially the A train.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2009)

sechs said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> > The culture out here wouldn't support an all night long operation
> ...


Actually buses typically cost far more to run than trains. In fact it costs Caltrain $1.20 in operating expenses to move a passenger one mile. Put that passenger on the train and it only cost them 27 cents in operating costs to move that passenger one mile. Those are Caltrain's 2007 numbers as reported to the National Transit Database.


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## Neil_M (Aug 29, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > tp49 said:
> ...


So just because NYC has that level of service then everywhere else does as well?

Are they real passengers or just those homeless types you love so much?


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## Neil_M (Aug 29, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.
> If I was running it, it would run like the LIRR- all night long.


But you don't. And we can see why!

Maybe those Californians are more laid back and have no need to be on train at 0315 in the morning. I pity anyone who feels the need to get up that early.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 29, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > The first train out is 8:15? That's nuts. NJT's first train out on the ex-NY&LB is 4:30 AM- which is a reasonable- if a tad late- time for reverse commuter service to start. The first train heading into the city departs Long Branch at 3:59- which I think is a bit late- I miss the 3:15 train out of Long Branch. I know California is trying, but they sure don't know how to run an effective commuter railroad.
> ...


Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL


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## Neil_M (Aug 29, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL


Nobody needs to be on a train at 0315.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Well Neil old chap,you see this country is so large that lots of folks that catch the train HAVE to get up @ ungodly hours to get to the station on time!Lots of pie in the sky folks expect their trains to arrive in their stop only in the daytime on a cool/clear and comfortable time with free parking and quadruple AGR points!yada!yada!yada!Californians are different than normal people,thats why they live there!LOL
> ...


So let me see if I understand you correctly. You Brits have figured out how to stop fires from burning down people's homes between the hours of midnight and 5 AM. You've figured out how to keep people from getting sick or worse dying between those hours, such that you don't need doctors and nurses at hospitals during those hours. No need for those who staff the various resturants and stands to start the water boiling for tea and coffee for those workers who do leave for work at 5:00 AM or 6:00 AM. Many of the people who clean office buildings don't start work until 6:00 PM and finish up after 2:00 AM. They don't need your pity, but they do need a way home.

All of the people who do these things need to get to/from work often at odd hours over here, but somehow you guys have solved all those problems. Is that what you're saying?


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Are they real passengers or just those homeless types you love so much?


They are real passengers.


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Aug 29, 2009)

sechs said:


> Practically the entire route is paralleled by buses, which run all night. These are well patronized -- and much cheaper to run.


Having been left high and dry one night at Palo Alto at something like 11:00 pm, I can say not really so. VTA's route 22 does run all night at fairly frequent intervals between Palo Alto and San Jose, running on El Camino Real more or less (sometimes up to a mile over) parallelling Caltrain, but *north* of Palo Alto, which is SamTrans territory, is another story. The "fast" buses up to San Francisco quit before 11:00 pm, and you are left with a fairly infrequent slow bus to Daly City where you can connect with San Francisco's Muni bus route, which is also slow. In general, if you miss the last SamTrans express bus, you can just about sleep on a bench at Palo Alto until the first Caltrain of the day (unless that day is Sunday) and not be much later into town than you would get there on SamTrans/Muni, and have a lot less hassle in the process.

Oh, yeah: we managed to complete our trip by gathering a bunch to fill a taxi and divide the fare.

I learned another thing from this incident: Just wait it out. When they can get going again, Caltrain will get you there. We were passed by a train before we got all the way back into town.


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## sechs (Oct 9, 2009)

I've never had any problems getting around late at night.

Back when there was no weekend Caltrain service, I was working late (past midnight) in San Mateo County and living in Santa Clara County. It took about 1.5 times longer to get from work to home on Saturday and Sunday mornings, but not appreciably longer (and, in fact, probably shorter) than it would have if I were taking the same buses in the middle of a weekday.

Chances are, you should have transferred to BART or a different bus to better get to where you wanted to be. Either way, you were hardly left high and dry.


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## DET63 (Oct 10, 2009)

BART doesn't run south of Millbrae. Palo Alto is about 20 miles south of Millbrae.

And BART doesn't start running till about 6:00 am on Saturdays, 8:00 am on Sundays.

I don't know the bus schedules in the area.


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## sechs (Oct 11, 2009)

I live here. I know where BART runs. BART does run after 11:00pm.

I checked 511.org. It came up with an all-bus itinerary that took about an hour longer than taking Caltrain.


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## DET63 (Oct 11, 2009)

The last BART trips start at about midnight, and end at about 1:15 to 1:30, depending on when the train reaches the end of the line. Those who begin a journey after 11:00 may or may not be able to complete it, depending on exactly when they begin and any transfers needed, before the service shuts down.


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## tp49 (Oct 11, 2009)

sechs said:


> I live here. I know where BART runs. BART does run after 11:00pm.
> I checked 511.org. It came up with an all-bus itinerary that took about an hour longer than taking Caltrain.


Last train leaves Millbrae at 11:49 PM. It's the last train through Powell to the East Bay that leaves at 12:22 AM. Any night I'm in San Francisco late I have to remember that's the last train of the night to the East Bay and my car.


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## DET63 (Oct 12, 2009)

tp49 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > I live here. I know where BART runs. BART does run after 11:00pm.
> ...


I haven't checked the BART schedule in a while, so I didn't know that the last train left Millbrae before the witching hour. However, as tp49 has pointed out, if you are out somewhere in the wee hours, you'd better make sure you don't miss your train, because there won't be another one for several hours.


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## Green Maned Lion (Oct 13, 2009)

Obviously, it is a passenger's responsibility to make the trains. The thing is, given that responsibility, people are likely to choose not to ride if they don't think they will be able to reach the train station and catch a train within a convienent amount of time- convienent being in the eyes of the rider- within the level of guarentee the rider personally wants.

That is, reduce frequency and reduce the number of hours the service operates, the less riders will be confident they with a) find it convienent, and b) not get stranded. As that diminishes, so does ridership. Even if the ridership at the hour you have decided to discontinue is minimal. The knowledge the train will be there if it is needed is actually more important then the actual people moving of that particular run.


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## DET63 (Oct 13, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Obviously, it is a passenger's responsibility to make the trains. The thing is, given that responsibility, people are likely to choose not to ride if they don't think they will be able to reach the train station and catch a train within a convienent amount of time- convienent being in the eyes of the rider- within the level of guarentee the rider personally wants.
> That is, reduce frequency and reduce the number of hours the service operates, the less riders will be confident they with a) find it convienent, and b) not get stranded. As that diminishes, so does ridership. Even if the ridership at the hour you have decided to discontinue is minimal. The knowledge the train will be there if it is needed is actually more important then the actual people moving of that particular run.


That may be good social policy, but it may be harder to justify when you're trying to balance your books. Hiring a train operator to take a train out that has only half a dozen people aboard at 3:00 am may be good for the potential passenger working the night shift, but it may not be good for the passenger aboard the 6:00 pm train on the way home from work who is packed in like a sardine, paying a higher fare, and unable to ride a longer train or take advantage of more frequent service due to budget considerations precipitated by the costs of operating the red-eye.


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## George Harris (Oct 13, 2009)

Just to note: Most high speed systems around the world shut down between midnight and 6:00am for maintenance of the tracks, overhead, etc. For example: Look at the Shinkansen schedules. If you aren't where you want to get to by midnight, find a hotel, because you will not be moving again on their trains before 6:00am. On the systems that run 24/7, there are still time periods tha maintenance windows must be given.


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 14, 2009)

George Harris said:


> Just to note: Most high speed systems around the world shut down between midnight and 6:00am for maintenance of the tracks, overhead, etc. For example: Look at the Shinkansen schedules. If you aren't where you want to get to by midnight, find a hotel, because you will not be moving again on their trains before 6:00am. On the systems that run 24/7, there are still time periods tha maintenance windows must be given.


Most rail transit systems shut down over night. Even the London Underground and Paris Metro don't run during the wee hours. New York City may be one of the few places with true 24-hour subway service. In Chicago, the CTA's Red and Blue lines run 24 hours, but the other rapid transit routes close down between 1 and 4 a.m. Metra also shuts down between 1 and 4 a.m.


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## Green Maned Lion (Oct 19, 2009)

DET63 said:


> That may be good social policy, but it may be harder to justify when you're trying to balance your books. Hiring a train operator to take a train out that has only half a dozen people aboard at 3:00 am may be good for the potential passenger working the night shift, but it may not be good for the passenger aboard the 6:00 pm train on the way home from work who is packed in like a sardine, paying a higher fare, and unable to ride a longer train or take advantage of more frequent service due to budget considerations precipitated by the costs of operating the red-eye.


You are suggesting, for no reason I can fathom, that one has to exist over the other- which is not true.

Furthermore, VW sells its Bugatti Veyron at a loss of something like $500 grand a copy, this despite its $1.2 million price tag. They do this because they are trying to build up the brand in preparation for making money further down the line.

A transit system will make more money (or lose less) as its trains fill up. Just because this train is being run almost empty, and at an allocable loss of a colossal amount, does not mean that the discontinuance of this train will improve the financial performance of the system. Indeed, the existence of service at that hour may be crucial to its performance being maintained at the current level.

Lastly, George, I'm not talking 24 hour operation. I'm just talking the general concept of a system has to be perceived as convenient in order to gain riders.


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## sechs (Oct 19, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Just because this train is being run almost empty, and at an allocable loss of a colossal amount, does not mean that the discontinuance of this train will improve the financial performance of the system.


Indeed, just because your budget is cut does not mean that passengers wish to pay more... but the money must come from somewhere.


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## Green Maned Lion (Oct 21, 2009)

sechs said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Just because this train is being run almost empty, and at an allocable loss of a colossal amount, does not mean that the discontinuance of this train will improve the financial performance of the system.
> ...


Yeah, the pockets of lazy, self centered people who drive their cars in unreasonable situations.


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