# How do feel about riding "Coach" ?



## Qapla (Apr 22, 2020)

People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"? 

That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as 

poor people
people who only ride a train for transportation - not for fun
not an "option" but something one "settles for"
something to be avoided

What do you think?


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 22, 2020)

For overnights, if I can afford a room, I'll get a room. Not because it's considered "first class" but because I sleep better on a flat surface. I have done coach overnight. I don't think coach pax are any different than me.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 22, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"?
> 
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> ...


I ride in Coach all the time on "Day trips" but @ my age I take a Roomette for all my Overnight trips.( that said, Coach on Amtrak is still much preferable to Airline Coach and Bus seats!)


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## Steve4031 (Apr 22, 2020)

My main objection with coach is as a single traveler I could get moved away from my window seat to accommodate families, etc. in a sleeper, or first class, I am guaranteed a window. 

I’ve met interesting people from coach in the dining car many times.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 22, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> For overnights, if I can afford a room, I'll get a room. Not because it's considered "first class" but because I sleep better on a flat surface. I have done coach overnight. I don't think coach pax are any different than me.



I agree. 



Bob Dylan said:


> I ride in Coach all the time on "Day trips" but @ my age I take a Roomette for all my Overnight trips.( that said, Coach on Amtrak is still much preferable to Airline Coach and Bus seats!)



Amtrak, provide me with some day rail trips from where I live that I could take in Coach and I would gladly book such.


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## bratkinson (Apr 22, 2020)

I rode my last overnight coach on train #66 WAS-BOS about 2 years ago. Never again! 

Both the conductor and assistant conductor made nearly incessant announcements, never more than 10 minutes apart, all night long WAS to NYP. The lights were on 'full bright' all night as well. That was the second time they 'destroyed' that train while I was on board. I'd ridden it a number of times prior to those clowns and slept far better. 

I've ridden LD overnight coach a several times in the past 40 years. It's was OK, especially if I had the entire seat to myself. But I don't sleep well. Whether it's not laying flat, my own loud snoring (I sometimes wake myself up by snoring if I'm laying on my back), or the fear of hanging my feet in the aisle and tripping someone, I don't sleep more than maybe 10 minutes at a time. I, for one, have tripped over someones' feet hanging in the aisle as I'm looking horizontally more than downward while walking to the diner or lounge car.


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## v v (Apr 22, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"?
> 
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> ...




poor people _sometimes_ 
people who only ride a train for transportation - not for fun _sometimes_
not an "option" but something one "settles for" _sometimes_
something to be avoided _never avoided, but not chosen sometimes_

Coach has as much to offer as sleeper, just in a different way. Of course travelling in coach with lots of people all around has it's own challenges, often though it's a positive experience but not always.


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## sttom (Apr 22, 2020)

What is there to "think" about coach? I'm going somewhere, I'm not driving and it's not a bus. 

Generally if I have to travel somewhere that would require an overnight trip on Amtrak, I'll put up with Southwest over sleeping in coach. But that has more to do with cost than comfort. Since flying causes anxiety.


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## the_traveler (Apr 22, 2020)

bratkinson said:


> I rode my last overnight coach on train #66 WAS-BOS about 2 years ago. Never again!
> 
> Both the conductor and assistant conductor made nearly incessant announcements, never more than 10 minutes apart, all night long WAS to NYP. The lights were on 'full bright' all night as well. That was the second time they 'destroyed' that train while I was on board. I'd ridden it a number of times prior to those clowns and slept far better.


I agree, WAS-NYP on 66 is the worst!  And the 3:15 am departure (190 I think) is next.

One conductor likes to announce: “Next stop BWI in 5 minutes” and “Now arriving BWI” and “Last call for BWI”. While this wouldn’t be bad, it’s at 4 am and many are trying to sleep!


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## Duane Witte (Apr 22, 2020)

If I am not going to be on the train overnight then coach is fine by me. Since I require a Bi-Pap to sleep and prefer not to sleep sitting up any overnight trip will be in at least a roomette.


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## railiner (Apr 22, 2020)

Nothing wrong with riding in coach. If I am traveling overnight though, I prefer having a private room with a bed to sleep in.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 22, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> I agree, WAS-NYP on 66 is the worst!  And the 3:15 am departure (190 I think) is next.
> 
> One conductor likes to announce: “Next stop BWI in 5 minutes” and “Now arriving BWI” and “Last call for BWI”. While this wouldn’t be bad, it’s at 4 am and many are trying to sleep!


And yet you and I have ridden on both several times!   I consider 190 the Worst ( remember the Washington Gathering?), since you can ride in the 2x1 B business Class Car on #66/#67 and have the Curtain Closed and the Lights out.

My biggest problem on #66/#67 is the Long Layover @ NYP with the Brighter than Bright Lights , and Noisy Passengers in the Cafe car since there is only a Curtain between BC and the Cafe.


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## Siegmund (Apr 23, 2020)

I think of it as the normal way to travel by train, what "everyone" does except a rich elite few.

Admittedly I am occasionally one of those rich elite few, when my work pays for an overnight trip for me. But I could never afford to buy a sleeper myself, and can't imagine my employer being willing to for a cross-country trip.

But coach is very spacious and comfortable, compared to flying or riding the bus - nice legroom, lots of luggage storage, nice big windows. Just like any trip, plan accordingly: bring things to entertain yourself if you aren't into the scenery, bring a pillow, blanket, earplugs, and blindfold if you are overnighting. But I will happily take overnight in coach over a pair of packed (pre-March) flights even if the total trip time is twice as long.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 23, 2020)

I consider it the same to coach vs. 1st class on a domestic flight. I’m gonna pay the difference for the comfort, but I’m also going to look for a deal and travel the right time / day so I’m not paying a crazy high price. 

I don’t consider coach passengers on delta or Amtrak as poor.

Now when it comes to a day trip, I’ll factor in meals and length of the trip.


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## Asher (Apr 23, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"?
> 
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> ...


I tried to run that first class heading by a gentleman working in the information booth at LAUS and got schooled. He said, ooh, 1st Class, we both had a laugh and I learned a valuable lesson.


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## IndyLions (Apr 23, 2020)

Nothing wrong with Coach passengers or riding in Coach in general. I do love the fact that there are options though. In my specific situation, BC for short haul and a Roomette for LD work better, whether I’m traveling for business or pleasure.

When I’m traveling Business, the quiet of BC/Sleeper allows me to get a ton of work done at prices comparable to major airlines. It’s not a mode of travel I’m not able to justify every time - but for several trips a year on certain routes it works out well.

When I’m traveling for pleasure - rail travel is my preferred mode for relaxation. BC/Sleeper offers a quieter environment - and since it is for vacation I can budget the additional cost.

When I sent my daughters off to college for overnights on the Cardinal and LSL - I sent them BC if it was available and Coach if it wasn’t. Those trips were planned in advance - and I usually was able to get a good BC fare. I thought BC was worth it because they almost always got a single seat to themselves. But on those occasions when they went Coach they usually still had a good experience.


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## Chey (Apr 23, 2020)

It's hard enough for me to sleep in my own bed, much less trying it in a train in coach. That works fine for day trips, most of my trips are LD and a roomette's the only way I'm going to get a few hours rest.

I've never thought of a roomette as being "first class" - I've met some great people in coach. I don't fly, so any seat in a train would be "first class" to me. I love train travel and wish I could do it more often.

I have to save up my money to travel LD so that I can have a roomette but I can tell you that AGR points have helped a lot. Unfortunately, those points don't go as far as they used to.


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## Tom in PA (Apr 23, 2020)

Years ago, I rode the AutoTrain in coach.
Never again. Loud talking, bottles rolling around on the floor... 
A roomette with a window (and a E. M. Forster novel) and I'm happy.
Please keep the sleeper dining car open.


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## scrollmaster (Apr 23, 2020)

My wife and I are almost 70 and use Amtrak exclusively for long distance travel and ride by bedroom for the concenience, meals and private bath/toilet. If only a few hours and not needing the bed we get roomette for the privacy and meals if applicable. I have ridden coach twice and extremely disliked the crowding. I always have a lot of points so cost is no issue. I do try to time Double Days and purchase to help keep my Select Plus and made it the last two years but barely.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 23, 2020)

For my Northeast Corridor rides, coach is perfectly fine, and the fares on the Northeast Regional are high enough that the true "budget travelers" are going to be riding the Chinatown buses, anyway. That said, I definitely take business class if I'm riding overnight on 66/67, and during busy times, when the trains really get full. Even if Business class sells out, I have more room. I sometimes take business class just for the hell of it, because I can get the 25% AGR TQP bonus. I also ride business class on the Carolinian and Vermonter, and the Empire service, as the coaches are Amfleet 1s, and I appreciate the extra legrooom on a longer ride. I also ride Business class on the Palmetto, even though the coaches are Amfleet 2's and there no difference in legroom, because, in my experience, I've always had a seat row to myself in Palmetto Business class all the way from Savannah to Baltimore, whereas I've seen the coaches, and they fill up. At least on Saturdays in mid-April.

Generally the only time I spring for the Acela is when I have first class upgrade coupons to use. Now that is first class, with roomy seats, open bar, and meal service included. Actually, I'd use Acela anyway to go between Baltimore and Boston, because it does cut a whole hour off the trip compared to the Regional. The Acela first class crowd is more what you would expect of first class, the fancy business people and such, but not everybody is like that.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 23, 2020)

Oh yes, back in 1988, my wife and I rode coach on the Capitol Limited to and from Chicago. This was right before we got married. The ride west was OK, but on our return, the crowd in our coach was so rowdy (and also, we were stuck with bulkhead seats and no window) that we ended up spending the entire night in the dome car, which was nice and quiet, and was kind of neat watching the little towns pass by.


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## Barb Stout (Apr 23, 2020)

I thought I could sleep in coach, but in spite of taking various measures (the Amtrak sleep kit with it's especially necessary blanket and blindfold), my knees still got cold. Why just my knees? I can and like to sleep sitting up with my legs crossed "Indian-style", but apparently I need extra warmth in the knee area when sleeping like this. Also, I need to find what kind of clothing will help keep me in place as apparently the Amtrak seats are slippery and I tend to slip down as I relax. So I need to find "grippier" clothing. If anyone else has this problem and has found a solution, I would love to hear it. 

Because of the above issue and because most of the time I'm traveling with my sister who has a hard time sleeping in general, we do travel in roomettes most of the time except when we go from Chicago to Ohio as all the Ohio stops are during the night, so one doesn't get decent sleep anyway, so we always do coach for that section.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 23, 2020)

Probably 95 percent of all Amtrak passengers travel on coach (including business class which is just an upgraded coach). Sleeper travel is limited to the few long distance, overnight trains. The Northeast Corridor, Midwest Corridors, Pacific Coast corridors and all the other regional trains across the country far outnumber the LD trains. 
You can't classify coach passengers as "poor," that is outrageous.


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## Twinkletoes (Apr 23, 2020)

I hesitated at first to respond because it is framed in a way that assumes that the label “first class” means anything real and that people who travel in sleeper “first class” have categorical beliefs about the status of people who travel in coach. I concur with MikefromCrete

I live in the northeast and take a lot of coach trips on the Northeast Regional service, so I have no set beliefs about coach and economic status. Sometimes I take the Acela to save time. I never pay for first class because “free” food doesn’t lure me and there is no quiet car option. Acela “business” class has that option. In December, I used one of my Rewards upgrade options for the experience, but I truly missed the quiet car experience. For the usual coach on the Northeast Regional trains I always choose the quiet car.

To echo others, I like sleepers for the flat bed, private toilet, and privacy. Sometimes the sleepers are sold out when I need to travel so there is no choice. No big deal most times. The most intrusive thing is the constant announcements and the lack of control over happenstances of the obese seat mate or noisy passengers. Oh yes one can be “trapped” in the sleepers with the party people, colicky baby, or boisterous kids. Thus, is the luck of the draw in congregate travel-train, bus, or train.


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## Gary Behling (Apr 23, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"?
> 
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> ...



I personally do not like sitting with strangers---so I always get a bedroom


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## Maglev (Apr 23, 2020)

I unabashedly like comfort and privacy. I will only fly first-class, and get a room or go business class on trains. A corollary is that I cannot afford to travel often, because I am poor, but I am very content to stay at home (the comfort and privacy levels at home are supreme).


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## MrNews (Apr 23, 2020)

At my age (65), medical condition (IBD), and temperament (psuedo elite), there's no way I would take a 24-hour train trip in Coach. On my first LD trip 10 years ago, I walked through Coach (full) and thought: "Sixty people and one (unsavory) bathroom? No way in Hades." I suppose I could save money, and wait until I'm 80 before going First Class, but why? Most Coach passengers are just trying to get from point A to point B, and not break the bank. Or they may be taking a shorter trip and not need the extra comfort & privacy. But Mrs. News and I have always thought "the journey is half the fun," and we have always had a good time in our tiny roomette. I sleep like a log for nearly ½ the journey, and arrive feeling great. Were I 40 years younger (and proportionately poorer) I would definitely be in Coach. (At age 22, I slept on the icy metal floor of a train from Zurich to Milan, being so student-poor I couldn't even afford a seat! Been there, done that.)


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## Nashua (Apr 23, 2020)

I can't imagine riding in a sleeper at this point in my life, because I don't make that much money. Most Americans, frankly, never reach the point where they can comfortably pay for sleeper service.

With Northeastern trips, you pretty much only have a choice between coach and slightly better coach, so I'm used to it. Then again, there's only really one overnight trip on the corridor. I've done one two-night Superliner coach trip and I was pleasantly surprised by how comfortable it was, all things considered. I've taken many overnight bus trips in the US and in other countries, and Superliner coach feels like luxury in comparison. I love that recline. The only two things I really wished for were being able to use the shower, and having the air conditioning turned down.


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## Qapla (Apr 23, 2020)

I have ridden both the Silvers between NYC and JAX - all of them overnight trips. I rode coach both ways on both trains.

The lights were dimmed at either 10 or 11 PM and they announced "quiet hours" - I rode for some time in the cafe car just because I was not ready for sleep. I noticed many were asleep or watching their tablets or phone. The attendants made sure anyone with a device was using earbuds or headsets.

The trains were reasonably dark enough to sleep and remained quiet through the night.

When I was ready to sleep, I had no problem sleeping in the reclined coach seat - no, I did not slide out or need my feet to stick out in the aisle. I did not notice constant loud announcements through the night - I did notice the attendants tapping people on the shoulder as they neared their stop and they hadn't prepared to get off the train.

While I would like to try a roomette for the experience, I would not have any qualms about riding coach from one coast to the other.


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## hlcteacher (Apr 23, 2020)

i prefer coach even on my long distance cross county trips


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## Eric in East County (Apr 23, 2020)

The first and only time we spent the night in coach was in 1993 when we rode the *Empire Builder* from Seattle to Glacier National Park. This was back in the bad old days when smoking was still allowed onboard. Much to our annoyance, we were assigned seats in the one coach that had a section for smokers at the rear. We explained to the conductor that we were non-smokers, and couldn’t we be moved to a non-smoking coach? She was not at all sympathetic and we had to stay where we were. As a result of having to breathe the second-hand smoke all night, we arrived at Glacier with irritated throats and sinuses and thoroughly pissed off at Amtrak. (We fared better on the return trip, although we both agreed that, at our age, spending the night in a coach seat was not our idea of a good time.) 

The next time we spent the night on a train was in 1997 when were took the *Coast Starlight* from Los Angeles to Seattle. This time, we booked a roomette which, to us, seemed a little too cramped when occupied by two people. On the plus side, on that particular trip, there was a second sightseer lounge car just for the sleeping car passengers.

The next year we traveled from Los Angeles to Chicago onboard the *Southwest Chief* and this time, we got a bedroom. In addition to being able to spread out, we had our own bathroom & sink, and PRIVACY. Since then, we always book a bedroom whenever we have to spend the night on a train.

We do use coach for the shorter portions of our long-distance train trips such as while traveling between Chicago and Toledo on the *Capitol Limited*. (We always buy reserved seat coach tickets to be sure of being able to sit together.) When traveling between San Diego and Los Angeles on the *Pacific Surfliner*, we’ve always ridden in coach, although during the summer, these tends to be somewhat more crowded, and noisy and the restrooms aren’t always tidy. (For this year’s trip, we will be “splurging” by riding to and from LA in Business Class.)

Even though we’ve shared our coaches with people from many different backgrounds and nationalities, we’ve never had any unpleasant experiences although we did observe some amusing ones. Once, while riding the *CL* to Toledo, a large group of either Poles or Russians got on at Waterloo. Once we were moving, they all started singing one of their national folk songs. (They did eventually get settled down.) Another time, traveling to San Diego on the *Pacific Surfliner*, we saw young man get on carrying both a surfboard and a guitar case. Even though the train was crowded, he managed to find room for both in the overhead rack.

Eric & Pat


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## Sauve850 (Apr 23, 2020)

My trips are only overnight ones. West coast somewhere to Chicago then on to Was and finally to South Florida. I spend a night or two in each city. I do not do coach. Could not sleep in the chair and share bathroom with so many. I use points for a bedroom on first two legs and usually a roomette from Was to Florida. I enjoy the space and the privacy it affords. I normally use points and start shopping for best west coast starting station beginning of the year for September cross country trains. Last year was Empire Builder from Seattle to Chi and paid about 800 for the bedroom. Dont remember how many points but around 30,000 I think?


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## toddinde (Apr 23, 2020)

I like them both, but they are completely different experiences. Coach on a long distance trip is like going camping. I love camping. I enjoy backpacking, wilderness canoeing and tent camping. Riding coach is a bit like that. Your relationships are different with your fellow passengers. Your fellow passengers will be more diverse. You will likely interact a lot more with them. It’s fun. You may not get as much rest, and will arrive a bit disheveled, but it’s usually a fun experience. The sleeper is like a hotel. I like hotels. It’s a private experience. You may interact a bit, but your unlikely to make fast friends. Most interactions will be in the diner. I’m in my mid-fifties, and I always feel like one of the youngsters in the sleeper. I love it though. It’s private, relaxing, meditative, and there is nothing quite like falling asleep in the berth on a train as the lights flash by your window. If I had to choose, I would prefer to go sleeper, but I wouldn’t have any qualms about going coach.


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## Charles785 (Apr 23, 2020)

For all the very good reason listed above I do prefer sleepers. And of course I would prefer them even more if they brought back full dining service on all LD trains, local newspapers (or the Wall Street Journal but not USA Today), brought back ice buckets and the three kinds of fruit juices, and brought back route guides and timetable schedules.

And amid all the cutbacks in recent years (not to mention the virus situation) this may not be the best time to ask this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Why not put sleepers on the only two overnight trains that don't now have them, #66 and #67? From some of the comments above it sounds like there's a demand for them.

And I couldn't figure out how to find out on the Amtrak website (does anyone else think it's a sub-standard and clunky website?) what the southern endpoint is for those trains. Is it still Washington, DC, or does it go on down to the Tidewater, Virginia, area?


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## caravanman (Apr 24, 2020)

1st or 2nd? It seems to me to be down to each individual's views of society in general. Do you see 1st and 2nd class citizens, or are all folk the same? Having money just gives one person the option to buy something that a less well off person cannot.
Obviously the facilities and comfort are better in the sleepers than the coach seats. I judge them accordingly, they are better or less good facilities, I don't judge the people using either.
I have often described coach seating as a mobile encampment, with a shared community feeling of camaraderie that grows during a long distance journey, and that interaction is something I particularly enjoy aboard Amtrak.


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## Woodcut60 (Apr 24, 2020)

I like comfort, quiet and privacy, so I am not a big fan of riding in Coach Class. I've done it many times, on shorter trips, but on the LD trains I prefer my own private room. In Coach I like the Quiet Cars but I found that they are not so quiet after all. What I dislike the most are all those people talking on their smartphones.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 24, 2020)

I have to say I have done it and I don't want to do it. My last time was round trip on the Auto Train. I felt this would be the safest bet to ride coach. I lucked out both ways getting two seats since the car was not full. The seats weren't bad and I slept a bit. It was okay. The worst part was the constant parade of people up and down the steps and the repetitive door banging and noisy locking of the bathroom doors downstairs. It wasn't a great experience but it was tolerable at least. Back then they fed you too.

But no way on a regular train. On a past Silver Meteor coach trip, I had a miserable time. Bathrooms were absolutely disgusting after a short time. Excited families heading south where getting on in the middle of the night and sitting in seats spread around the car. The mother was yelling to the kids asking if they wanted any more chicken. It was a party for them. And yes there were chicken bones on the floor and probably down the cushions.

You got people snoring loudly and other body functions all night long. Add body odor and sweaty shoeless feet. People hanging into the aisles obstructing your path.

I have a friend who recently had a lung removed. Her doctor told her not to fly. For the first time in her life she took a train (coach) from Florida to New York. When she came back it was the usual "never again" (and the planes are cheaper!).

Whenever I travel with my wife I get a roomette. I just don't want her to experience an overnight LD coach. Sorry, call me a snob but it is not a pleasant experience.

By the way, this is exactly why I feel we need a Delta One Suite option that I mention on another thread. I would have got that on the Auto Train if available and would definitely consider that option if Amtrak offered it on other LD trains. People want their personal space especially now. No one probably wants to sleep next to a stranger anymore and it wasn't pleasant before either.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 24, 2020)

I once rode coach on the Silver Star, Baltimore to Tampa. It was right after President's day weekend, and no sleepers were available. This was almost a 24 hour trip. At the platform, I was assigned a window seat. My seatmate was a young mom who needed the aisle seat to keep track of her two kids who were sitting across the aisle. There is plenty of room, but as there is no seat divider, I was always a little uncomfortable, that I'd turn or roll in the wrong direction while sleeping and give this woman the wrong idea about my intentions. 

One disadvantage of coach on long-distance trains with a full passenger load is that coach passengers are not assured of access to reservations in the diner. (This was back when the Silver Star had a diner.) Thus, my dinner that evening was a pizza and a bottle of wine in the cafe car. 

When I got back to my seat for sleeping, the lights were turned down, and everybody was quiet. The Amfleet 2 coaches have curtains on the windows, so I had no problems with being disturbed by outside lights from passing towns, stations, car and truck headlights, etc. I brought along a nice stadium blanket that works fine, and I balled up my coat to act as a pillow. I was reasonably comfortable except that, for some reason the seat cushion felt that it was stuffed with concrete. (This sensation also happens to me on some day trips, too.) The worst thing was that I was reluctant to get up and use the restroom, as this would mean waking up my seatmate, who was sleeping very nicely. By the way, the restrooms were very well cleaned, and they even had a card on the door noting (with the attendant's signature) when the room was cleaned. Looks like they did it every couple of hours. This doesn't always happen.

I woke early in the morning, a little disheveled, but washed up, and then went to the diner (no reservations needed) for breakfast just a bit after we left Jacksonville. My seatmate and her kids got off at Orlando, and I had the seat pair to myself for the rest of the trip. Most passengers got off at Orlando, but a lot also got on, so I was happy I had the seat pair to myself. When we got to Tampa, the crowds at the station made it look like it was on the Northeast Corridor. I can see why Brightline/Virgin Trains thinks there's a market in this corridor.

On the trip back, I had a sleeper reservation. Would I do long-distance coach again? I'm not sure about a 24 hour trip to Florida, but I night think about it riding the Capitol Limited to Chicago. Generally, though, if I can afford a sleeper, I'll take it. My back isn't what it used to be, and those concrete seat cushions keep me up at night, especially if I can't get an aisle seat to allow frequent trips to the restroom.


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## Asher (Apr 24, 2020)

caravanman said:


> 1st or 2nd? It seems to me to be down to each individual's views of society in general. Do you see 1st and 2nd class citizens, or are all folk the same? Having money just gives one person the option to buy something that a less well off person cannot.
> Obviously the facilities and comfort are better in the sleepers than the coach seats. I judge them accordingly, they are better or less good facilities, I don't judge the people using either.
> I have often described coach seating as a mobile encampment, with a shared community feeling of camaraderie that grows during a long distance journey, and that interaction is something I particularly enjoy aboard Amtrak.


Maybe I don't understand an individuals views on society in general. I don't see the people differently. I see the conditions different. I see comfort, privacy and the ability to bring my favorite beverage as opposed to, who knows what.


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## basketmaker (Apr 24, 2020)

First, I do not consider the "caste system" classification relative. But after my first overnight trip that started and ended on the City of New Orleans in Fulton, KY since it was the short leg of my journey via the Desert Wind, Coast Starlight and Empire Builder I booked coach on both legs to/from Chicago. The northbound leg was okay not great mind you. But the southbound leg was horrible. They has the steam heat cranked up that I sweat and was soaked. The coach was jammed and almost every third body was a small child. Luckily, a young lady (maybe 19-20) with a small infant sat next to me. She was very sweet and her infant (3-4 months) was a dream. Only noise was a little "cooooo" now and then. Now the rest of the kids screamed and cried the whole way. Not to mention some earth shattering snoring! I made my mind up from that point if overnight it was a sleeper for me.

Though pricing plays a roll in it I have met folks from all walks of life in my travels on Amtrak. From low income to millionaire business. owners traveling coach while moving about the train. Many foreign folks wanting to see the USA. Students going to/from school. Most memorable was a young lady that was in school back east and she paid her tuition as an "employee" at the Mustang Ranch in Nevada. And a couple of celebrities too.

Personally I do prefer a bed and appreciate the privacy factor too. But coach is a very viable transportation option.

And after 45 years in passenger/cargo aviation Amtrak coach beats flying everyday of the week.


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## thefourwaystop (Apr 24, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> i prefer coach even on my long-distance cross county trips


Where do you prefer to sleep...in a coach seat or in the (superliner) lounge?


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## basketmaker (Apr 24, 2020)

A conductor told me once that the lower level baggage area is a popular sleeping area too as long as it is clear. We used the top shelf once as a bar for a big party (suggested by a couple of crazy Coach Attendants) in the smoking lounge on the CZ. Several of us chipped in and a couple of folks ran across the street to the liquor store in GJT and got an assortment of booze and mixers. What a hoot! Specially the Attendants telling travel stories over the years. And NO they were not drinking any alcohol!


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Apr 24, 2020)

I was on a Silver that was stranded for over 24 hours. The conditions in coach deteriorated quickly. For example, the restrooms became more "unclean" than the worst roadside gas station restrooms, and it was not Amtrak employees that were dirtying them up. Conditions in the sleepers stayed as normal.

The conditions were so bad in coach that the conductor tried to spend as much time as possible with us in the sleeper cars.


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## railiner (Apr 24, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> A conductor told me once that the lower level baggage area is a popular sleeping area too as long as it is clear. We used the top shelf once as a bar for a big party (suggested by a couple of crazy Coach Attendants) in the smoking lounge on the CZ. Several of us chipped in and a couple of folks ran across the street to the liquor store in GJT and got an assortment of booze and mixers. What a hoot! Specially the Attendants telling travel stories over the years. And NO they were not drinking any alcohol!


That looks like what was for a while a 'smoking lounge'.....


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 24, 2020)

railiner said:


> That looks like what was for a while a 'smoking lounge'.....



It’s interesting how times have changed... the lounge cars themselves were smoking lounges all the way until the 90’s.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Apr 25, 2020)

I would routinely ride coach on the Empire Builder Milwaukee-Fargo and back going to and from college in the late 1970s. 12 hours per the schedule which consistently turned into 15 hours. I would try to sleep at least part of the time (since it would usually be the wee hours of the morning when I would board the train in Fargo to head home), and it was OK (plus it was on my parent's dime, so I had to be careful about the expense). Nowadays, I would probably ride Coach on the Lincoln Service (although I'd love to try Business Class at least once), but would prefer at least a Roomette for overnight travel.


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## the_traveler (Apr 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s interesting how times have changed... the lounge cars themselves were smoking lounges all the way until the 90’s.


That’s why I never visited “the lounge” on an east coast train!


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## basketmaker (Apr 25, 2020)

railiner said:


> That looks like what was for a while a 'smoking lounge'.....


It is February, 2003.


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## toddinde (Apr 25, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> A conductor told me once that the lower level baggage area is a popular sleeping area too as long as it is clear. We used the top shelf once as a bar for a big party (suggested by a couple of crazy Coach Attendants) in the smoking lounge on the CZ. Several of us chipped in and a couple of folks ran across the street to the liquor store in GJT and got an assortment of booze and mixers. What a hoot! Specially the Attendants telling travel stories over the years. And NO they were not drinking any alcohol!


I’ve had some experiences like that! That’s something that won’t happen on the plane!


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## Barb Stout (Apr 25, 2020)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I would routinely ride coach on the Empire Builder Milwaukee-Fargo and back going to and from college in the late 1970s. 12 hours per the schedule which consistently turned into 15 hours. I would try to sleep at least part of the time (since it would usually be the wee hours of the morning when I would board the train in Fargo to head home), and it was OK (plus it was on my parent's dime, so I had to be careful about the expense). Nowadays, I would probably ride Coach on the Lincoln Service (although I'd love to try Business Class at least once), but would prefer at least a Roomette for overnight travel.


Did you grow up in Milwaukee then? My sister, the one who attended Concordia College in St. Paul, taught at a Lutheran school in Milwaukee after she graduated from Concordia.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Apr 25, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> Did you grow up in Milwaukee then? My sister, the one who attended Concordia College in St. Paul, taught at a Lutheran school in Milwaukee after she graduated from Concordia.


No, but just South of there, in Racine and Kenosha.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 26, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd [Class]"?
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> poor people
> ...


Calling coach travel second class actually seems rather apt to me. This term comes with an extreme social stigma in the US, but that is precisely what modern coach travel represents in my view. Specifically, the way many staff treat coach travelers is distinctly low class. It doesn't really matter if it's Amtrak or an airline in all honesty. That is not to say everyone who travels in coach is poor or ignorant; just that this is how staff tend to treat coach passengers regardless of their means or education. I've traveled in coach more times than I can count and find coach seats rather uncomfortable for actual sleeping. For these and other reasons I mainly use coach for day trips now.


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## Deni (Apr 26, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> A conductor told me once that the lower level baggage area is a popular sleeping area too as long as it is clear. We used the top shelf once as a bar for a big party (suggested by a couple of crazy Coach Attendants) in the smoking lounge on the CZ. Several of us chipped in and a couple of folks ran across the street to the liquor store in GJT and got an assortment of booze and mixers. What a hoot! Specially the Attendants telling travel stories over the years. And NO they were not drinking any alcohol!


Those old smoking lounges were a lot of fun back in those days. I spent a lot of time in the ones on the EB. Became quite the party. Officially food and drink were not allowed but as long as you had a cool conductor it was all good. But I did see it get out of hand a couple of times.


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## Deni (Apr 26, 2020)

basketmaker said:


> It is February, 2003.


I believe those smoking lounges operated until 2004.


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## Skyline (Apr 26, 2020)

If I can ride 2x1 Business Class instead of 2x2 coach, that's a small compromise if I can get a single. When younger and poorer, I almost always rode coach; slumbercoach if available. Now I'm older and have made a few bucks so try to book a sleeper. I just sleep better in a roomette or bedroom. Sadly, nothing comparable these days to the slumbercoach.

It has nothing to do with "classism." In fact, I think I've met a wider spectrum of the human race among those who travel coach. I like the diversity. On many trains, it's still possible to socialize with people from sleepers and coaches in lounge cars.


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## fdaley (Apr 26, 2020)

Back in the late '80s, I used to ride #66 regularly from Newark to Boston to meet up with my girlfriend, now my wife. The coaches were unreserved, and a big crowd got off at NYP. From there I would usually have two seats to myself until at least Providence. I got very good at sleeping in fetal position across the two seats with my coat or jacket as a pillow, and I slept well. 

Later, when we lived in Maine, I discovered the sleeper on the back of 66/67 and used it a number of times between Boston and PA or VA until the sleeper was taken off in 2003. On the long-distance trains, I take a sleeper whenever it's available. 

Last year I needed to get from NJ to Boston, the schedule of #66 worked well, and I thought that even if there was no sleeper, I could manage OK and relive the experience of my youth. Fearing the coach might be crowded, however, I used an AGR coupon to upgrade to Business Class. That was a mistake. In the 2-and-1 seating arrangement used on that train, the two-seaters have a large armrest in the middle, making it impossible to sleep across two seats. So I took one of the single seats. It was a long night as I tried to contort myself into a position suitable for sleeping. I arrived exhausted, and my neck was sore for much of the next day. I guess that is the difference between being 20-something and 50-something.


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## Qapla (Apr 26, 2020)

fdaley said:


> I guess that is the difference between being 20-something and 50-something.



I rode the Silvers in a Viewliner Coach seat.

Reclined the seat and laid my head back and drifted off to sleep with the rocking and swaying of the train. Woke up with no more aches and pains than I have when I sleep in my own bed ... guess that's what being in the upper 60's is like.


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## fdaley (Apr 26, 2020)

Qapla said:


> I rode the Silvers in a Viewliner Coach seat.
> 
> Reclined the seat and laid my head back and drifted off to sleep with the rocking and swaying of the train. Woke up with no more aches and pains than I have when I sleep in my own bed ... guess that's what being in the upper 60's is like.



I suppose you're right. I don't sleep as well in my own bed as I did 30 years ago. But I do sleep better when I can lie down flat than when I'm reclining in a chair.


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## Qapla (Apr 26, 2020)

I cannot sleep right when I lie down flat - can't breath right ... need my head elevated

I can't sleep on my back if not elevated. Also, if I lay on my left side, I cannot have my right leg straight while sleeping or I will have difficulty and pain trying to ben it when I get up - if I am on my right side, I can have my right leg straight or bent and be just fine - go figure


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## CameraObscura76 (Apr 27, 2020)

Qapla said:


> People tend to refer to having a sleeper as "1st Class" ... does that make Coach "2nd Coach"?
> 
> That brings up the question .... what do you think about coach? Do you tend to think of those who ride coach as
> 
> ...


 
_Riding in a roomette as opposed to riding coach is more of a personal preference I admit it; while others enjoy the social aspect of coach and meeting new people, having to be seated next to a complete stranger makes me uncomfortable because I’m extremely shy. I like having the option of retreating to my private space or venturing out among other passengers. _


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## jloewen (Apr 27, 2020)

fdaley said:


> Back in the late '80s, I used to ride #66 regularly from Newark to Boston to meet up with my girlfriend, now my wife. The coaches were unreserved, and a big crowd got off at NYP. From there I would usually have two seats to myself until at least Providence. I got very good at sleeping in fetal position across the two seats with my coat or jacket as a pillow, and I slept well.
> 
> Later, when we lived in Maine, I discovered the sleeper on the back of 66/67 and used it a number of times between Boston and PA or VA until the sleeper was taken off in 2003. On the long-distance trains, I take a sleeper whenever it's available.
> 
> Last year I needed to get from NJ to Boston, the schedule of #66 worked well, and I thought that even if there was no sleeper, I could manage OK and relive the experience of my youth. Fearing the coach might be crowded, however, I used an AGR coupon to upgrade to Business Class. That was a mistake. In the 2-and-1 seating arrangement used on that train, the two-seaters have a large armrest in the middle, making it impossible to sleep across two seats. So I took one of the single seats. It was a long night as I tried to contort myself into a position suitable for sleeping. I arrived exhausted, and my neck was sore for much of the next day. I guess that is the difference between being 20-something and 50-something.


By chance my wife and I took the next-to-last sleeper from DC to BOS and then the first overnight train from BOS to DC that did NOT have a sleeper. Amtrak had sold us a sleeper both ways. We booked a bedroom up (so we could take a shower before speaking etc. in Boston) and a roomette back south. Northbound, the sleeper meant that we could eat anything we wanted (except alcohol) from the usual Amcafe. Not nearly as good as a diner, of course, but OK, especially for breakfast.
But when we boarded to go south, they told us the sleeper car had broken, so they refunded our ticket back to coach and then gave us Business Class, which did not include food, of course, only soft drinks. We did not sleep as well sitting up. So far as I know, Amtrak never repaired or replaced the sleeper. Why not?? Why doesn't RPA, AU, etc., ask for its return?


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## Charles785 (Apr 27, 2020)

Does anyone know why sleepers were taken off #66 and #67?


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## Katibeth (Apr 28, 2020)

If I was traveling in a group, I wouldn't mind being in Coach. However, since I usually travel alone, I prefer a sleeper whenever possible.


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## dlagrua (Apr 28, 2020)

On the NE corridor trains on trips up to about 6 hours, we always ride coach. On 8 -10 hour trips we usually book a roomette and on overnight trips we get a bedroom mainly because we are a middle age/senor couple. The seats on coach recline and are large enough to feel comfortable in. Many people feel perfectly fine sleeping in their seat while others do not. For instance on the overnight Autotrain most passengers take coach. Many take bed sized pillows aboard. It all depends on your budget and how you define your level of comfort.


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## F900ElCapitan (Apr 28, 2020)

The way I see it, the different classes are already labeled, sleeper, first (Acela), business, and coach. I don’t view people any differently for whichever class they choose or are able to book. Nor do I consider there to be much of a need to re-label the classes just to fit a different labeling scheme. I have been fortunate enough in the past couple of years to have the option to make the choice that best suits me. That being said, I also do my due diligence and watch for the fares available per accommodation and make my booking choice for what I see as reasonable. Things like sleeping on an actual bed, privacy to run my scanner, and being able to bring alcoholic beverages are important to me. Shoot, my wife and I even booked a roomette from Oakland to San Luis Obispo because the upcharge was under $100 and we got breakfast and lunch included. But I have also ridden coach, (although not overnight) and really enjoyed it. 

To sum it up, whichever choice that’s made, it’s always an adventure on Amtrak.


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## fdaley (Apr 29, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> Does anyone know why sleepers were taken off #66 and #67?



As I recall, the claim was that Amtrak didn't have enough Viewliner sleepers to go around. There was a period when the Cardinal had run with Superliner cars and terminated at Washington, so it may have had to do with re-equipping that train to resume through service to New York. 

I remember that the sleeper came off in November 2003. We had booked a room on 67 at the end of that month to attend a wedding in northern Virginia. Our toddler son was kind of difficult at that point, and my wife especially felt that if we had to go all that way in coach, we and our fellow passengers would all go mad. But about two or three weeks before departure, Amtrak notified us the sleeper was being canceled. We wound up going in coach to New York, then had a room on the Crescent to Alexandria, which I felt lucky to get because of the proximity to Thanksgiving.


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## Trogdor (Apr 29, 2020)

fdaley said:


> As I recall, the claim was that Amtrak didn't have enough Viewliner sleepers to go around. There was a period when the Cardinal had run with Superliner cars and terminated at Washington, so it may have had to do with re-equipping that train to resume through service to New York.
> 
> I remember that the sleeper came off in November 2003. We had booked a room on 67 at the end of that month to attend a wedding in northern Virginia. Our toddler son was kind of difficult at that point, and my wife especially felt that if we had to go all that way in coach, we and our fellow passengers would all go mad. But about two or three weeks before departure, Amtrak notified us the sleeper was being canceled. We wound up going in coach to New York, then had a room on the Crescent to Alexandria, which I felt lucky to get because of the proximity to Thanksgiving.



There was some overlap between the Cardinal going single-level and 66/67 losing the sleeper.

The Cardinal went single level in spring or summer 2002, after the April 2002 Auto Train derailment took Amtrak below the number of serviceable Superliners needed to maintain their network. A year or two after that, the route was extended to New York because, as I recall, it was easier to maintain the train and furnish spare equipment in New York where all the other Viewliner trains (save the on again, off again Boston Lake Shore sleeper and the on again, off again Twilight Shoreliner/Night Owl sleeper) vs. DC where the Cardinal was the only train with a Viewliner.

(On a side note, in April 2002, the Kentucky Cardinal, which had run with one or two Superliners attached to the Superliner-equipped Cardinal, had been planned to switch to single-level equipment including a Viewliner, connected to the transition sleeper on the Cardinal, but the effect of the Auto Train derailment converting the Cardinal to Viewliner meant the KC lost its sleeper completely.)

At the time, Amtrak was overtaxing the Viewliner fleet, which meant that any little thing resulted in a sleeper line being blanked and passengers being downgraded day of (I was the recipient of one such downgrade in January 2003 BOS-CHI, incidentally having arrived in BOS on train 66 which had a Viewliner in service).

Eventually reality set in and Amtrak had to pull sleepers from somewhere, and 66/67 were the obvious target (and 448/449 wound up losing their sleepers around the same time, though I don’t recall which was first; in fact, 448/449 were turned into a stub train ALB-BOS for a while, though I think that may have been due to track construction around Albany-Rensselaer station).

Other trains that wound up losing their Viewliners at the time were the Three Rivers (which ran with a Viewliner for maybe 6 months to a year after the last Heritage sleepers were retired), and the Silver Palm, which became the Palmetto. After Amtrak got Viewliner availability back to acceptable levels, they used that equipment to put the third sleeper back onto the Silver Meteor (which had been running with two).


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## Skyline (Apr 29, 2020)

Deni said:


> Those old smoking lounges were a lot of fun back in those days. I spent a lot of time in the ones on the EB. Became quite the party. Officially food and drink were not allowed but as long as you had a cool conductor it was all good. But I did see it get out of hand a couple of times.



Those lounges, and the myriad other "private" nooks and crannies in some of the heritage cars, were one of the attractions of rail travel during my youth. Looking back, I wonder how we all survived, as it sometimes had a Woodstock vibe.


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## railiner (Apr 29, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Those lounges, and the myriad other "private" nooks and crannies in some of the heritage cars, were one of the attractions of rail travel during my youth. Looking back, I wonder how we all survived, as it sometimes had a Woodstock vibe.


The ultimate "party hardy" location in all of Amtrak, was in "Le Pub", on the Heritage era Montrealer, especially northbound on Friday nights, or southbound on Sunday nights...


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## Maglev (Apr 29, 2020)

I have an interesting story about riding in coach and drinking on board. In early 1978, I was returning from Eugene to Boston by train, and rode the _National Limited _from Kansas City to New York. There was a group of military inductees heading for basic training with which I spent part of the evening socialising. After I retired, the train hit a car and was stopped for a while. Apparently some of the guys I was hanging out with got off the train and stole a case of beer. Later that night, in a large city station (the identity of which I am not certain), Military Police apprehended the entire gang. I'm lucky I wasn't part of that late night party!


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## fdaley (Apr 29, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> There was some overlap between the Cardinal going single-level and 66/67 losing the sleeper.
> 
> The Cardinal went single level in spring or summer 2002, after the April 2002 Auto Train derailment took Amtrak below the number of serviceable Superliners needed to maintain their network. A year or two after that, the route was extended to New York because, as I recall, it was easier to maintain the train and furnish spare equipment in New York where all the other Viewliner trains (save the on again, off again Boston Lake Shore sleeper and the on again, off again Twilight Shoreliner/Night Owl sleeper) vs. DC where the Cardinal was the only train with a Viewliner.
> 
> ...



Thank you for explaining that with much fuller context. I thought I remembered that there was a wreck that somehow figured into it, but couldn't recall the details. Your review of the sleeper services that disappeared in the early 2000s does underscore how much Amtrak service is still constrained by decisions on equipment orders that were made 25-30 years ago.


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## Skyline (Apr 30, 2020)

railiner said:


> The ultimate "party hardy" location in all of Amtrak, was in "Le Pub", on the Heritage era Montrealer, especially northbound on Friday nights, or southbound on Sunday nights...




Yes! I remember that! Only rode the Montrealer LePub a couple times tho.

The Broadway Limited had its own incarnation of LePub, albeit without the piano player when I rode. I used to take it RT between PGH and PHL twice a month for business purposes. And...it had a slumbercoach!

I later learned that some of the LePub style lounge cars were at one time converted to "hospital cars" during WW2.

Some of the western trains during the first decade of Amtrak had some of the best and worst rolling stock. You never quite knew what you'd get until boarding. But explorations sometimes revealed tight private-ish spaces that two, three, or four adults could occupy without being "caught." Of course if someone "lit up," all bets were off -- that stench was too difficult to mask. Superliners and Viewliners really don't compare. How did we all survive being young in the '60s and '70s?


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## railiner (Apr 30, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Yes! I remember that! Only rode the Montrealer LePub a couple times tho.
> 
> The Broadway Limited had its own incarnation of LePub, albeit without the piano player when I rode. I used to take it RT between PGH and PHL twice a month for business purposes. And...it had a slumbercoach!
> 
> I later learned that some of the LePub style lounge cars were at one time converted to "hospital cars" during WW2.


Those Heritage 3100 series lounges were built new as hospital cars for the US Army during WWII. They are easily identified from outside by their lack of much window area. Before Amtrak got their allocation of them, the Alaska RR also inherited several. I rode the 1970 AuRoRa, and in their conversion they installed a working jukebox, which the college kids used to dance to along the way....


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## Skyline (Apr 30, 2020)

railiner said:


> Those Heritage 3100 series lounges were built new as hospital cars for the US Army during WWII. They are easily identified from outside by their lack of much window area. Before Amtrak got their allocation of them, the Alaska RR also inherited several. I rode the 1970 AuRoRa, and in their conversion they installed a working jukebox, which the college kids used to dance to along the way....



Good to learn. A club car attendant back in the day told me they were "converted," but they were built new as hospital cars?


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## railiner (Apr 30, 2020)

__





RailwaySurgery.org - Army Hospital Trains


History of Army hospital trains, from the Civil War to the Korean War



railwaysurgery.org









__





RailwaySurgery.org - Army Hospital Trains - Build Your Own


1945 Artlce on building a hospital train model



railwaysurgery.org


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## Devil's Advocate (May 1, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Those lounges, and the myriad other "private" nooks and crannies in some of the heritage cars, were one of the attractions of rail travel during my youth. Looking back, I wonder how we all survived, as it sometimes had a Woodstock vibe.


I was never able to experience the bar car heyday. The closest example for me was the Pacific Parlor Car. Some nights nothing happened but other times a rolling bar atmosphere would spawn organically. After the PPC was abandoned by Anderson the last vestige of the lounge car era was over. Now we're stuck with glorified gas station booths on wheels with tinted windows.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 1, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Now we're stuck with glorified gas station booths on wheels with tinted windows.



The Sightseer Lounge cars are actually pretty great imho. While I would always prefer the charm of the parlor car, the ssl cars have bigger windows. 

The ssl cars could be quite nice if they would decorate them and use the upstairs bar in a classy way.


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## Dakota 400 (May 1, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Sightseer Lounge cars are actually pretty great imho. While I would always prefer the charm of the parlor car, the ssl cars have bigger windows.
> 
> The ssl cars could be quite nice if they would decorate them and use the upstairs bar in a classy way.



I know it would add an employee if they returned service to the upstairs bar, but I think it could improve the sales in that car. Trying to carry a Bloody Mary up those steps with one hand holding the drink and one hand holding the stair rails on a "rockin' an' rolling'" train....


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## crescent-zephyr (May 1, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I know it would add an employee if they returned service to the upstairs bar, but I think it could improve the sales in that car. Trying to carry a Bloody Mary up those steps with one hand holding the drink and one hand holding the stair rails on a "rockin' an' rolling'" train....



With 2 employees the car is always open for service as well. The employees would stagger the meal breaks. 

There’s no reason the ssl couldn’t be used for wine tastings, happy hour, etc. with at-table service. If there was a second employee of course. 

Lots of options, but Amtrak is mostly going the opposite direction.


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## Skyline (May 2, 2020)

railiner said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow! That's quite a graphic! Thanks for sharing...


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## Deni (May 10, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Those lounges, and the myriad other "private" nooks and crannies in some of the heritage cars, were one of the attractions of rail travel during my youth. Looking back, I wonder how we all survived, as it sometimes had a Woodstock vibe.


There were a couple of times it got ugly on the smoking car. But usually stayed pretty chill. There were always some colorful characters either way. And we were usually pretty well drunk and otherwise mind-altered. Unbelievable how much we got away with smoking pot in the open. The awful things I used to do to my body when I was younger.


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## Qapla (May 10, 2020)

Deni said:


> There were a couple of times it got ugly on the smoking car.




Since today there is no smoking while on the train - this does not seem to be an issue. Regardless of how it was "back then", this thread is supposed to be about riding coach on Amtrak today ...


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## Willbridge (May 10, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> With 2 employees the car is always open for service as well. The employees would stagger the meal breaks.
> 
> There’s no reason the ssl couldn’t be used for wine tastings, happy hour, etc. with at-table service. If there was a second employee of course.
> 
> Lots of options, but Amtrak is mostly going the opposite direction.


I had the same thought when the PPC was yanked. If they weren't trying to kill the train, they would have staffed the upper level.


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## Willbridge (May 10, 2020)

Most of my overnight travel in the U.S. has been in Superliners and I find the coach seats, and especially the Business Class seats, more comfortable than a Roomette. I'm tall enough to find the beds too short. For age and disability reasons I'm usually on the lower level, so there is no through traffic. I wear a hat with a brim or a visor and pull it down over my eyes against the lights.

One advantage of coach is having windows on both sides and waking up at just the right moment. This photo is from Spring Break 1967 on SP Train 12, running late, of course. In those days, coach was an economic necessity that brought a week in San Francisco within reach.


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## railiner (May 10, 2020)

True windows on both sides, but aren't most of the windows covered by curtains overnight, and at dawn...?


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## Lacunacoil (May 10, 2020)

I've been poor since 15 lol so 30 years of poor. All I know is just regular seat. I'm on train long distance often. I actually drive back from Florida to ny last month due to coronavirus and every truck was on my rear end as I was doing cruise 70 in slow lane but trucks want to do 80 to 110 and only want to do it in the slow lane to avoid tickets. Anyway, train always has some poor people, as in, one city shipping homeless person off to his hometown. They generally have no money and spend trip asking for food money. 80% are normal quiet, theres usually 1 bad drunk, or just bad attitude person per car, well not usually... maybe 40% of the time. You also get the phone people, I talk 100 minutes a month on the phone. Some people on a 20 hour train ride will be on the phone 17 hours. And they talk loud. Some people wont have head phones and if u ask conductor to enforce that rule at bedtime they look at you like maybe we should throw him off the train. I've had my bag cut open when I walked away from seat for ten minutes. I've seen others thrown off for stealing phones, fighting cursing smoking taking pants off for moment, looking at porn and selling stuff...seen slot people thrown off. I sleep good if nobody is next to me. I bring hoodie, blanket pillow exercise mat. Also alot people smell bad. My sense smell was always low but as I get older I get bothered by smell. Some dont believe in deodorant if certain groups of people. Most men without deodorant will smell in hour or 2 after showering.


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## IndyLions (May 11, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Most of my overnight travel in the U.S. has been in Superliners and I find the coach seats, and *especially the Business Class seats*, more comfortable than a Roomette...



I have never been on a Superliner (that I recall) offered BC. Which routes have offered it?


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## railiner (May 11, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> I have never been on a Superliner (that I recall) offered BC. Which routes have offered it?


I believe the Coast Starlight does, or did when I rode it....
I don't think it's at all "worth it", as the seats are the same as any of the other Superliner coaches...and neither did other's on my trip during the Tehachapi detour...it was in fact, empty!


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## jimmrl (May 11, 2020)

Going back to the original post:

My first ride on Amtrak was from Denver to Chicago in coach about 15 years ago. I did not care for the overnight in coach.

Over the last eight or nine years I have switched to roomettes for over night travel and I love it. I have and will do coach for day trips like I did last year from Williamsburg VA to NY/NY.


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## NYP2NFL01 (May 13, 2020)

The "last" time I rode coach overnight was in 2014 onboard LSL from NYP to DET (via Thruway bus at TOL). I so wanted a sleeper but finances at the time dictated coach. The first 6 to 8 hours were okay. After that those coach seat cushions really became a pain in the "butt"! I was SO uncomfortable. And forget about trying to sleep. The same was true on the return trip. My body suffered for weeks after that ordeal. Since then I've vowed never to travel overnight in coach again. I just save up, watch Amtrak for sales/discounts, and travel in a Roomette at a minimum.


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## NEPATrainTraveler (May 13, 2020)

I road overnight coach back in 2018 on the LSL from NYP to CHI. My experience wasn't that great. Looking back I should have brought a travel pillow and Dramamine. It was late October and the heat was cranked up, so that didn't help matters. I should have brought a t-shirt and shorts to change into. I was able to sit without a seatmate the whole trip. The car I was in was only half full. I couldn't recline as far back as I wanted to because the guy behind me had his tray down the whole trip. I should've moved seats. The food in the cafe car was good though and I enjoyed the scenery.

Would I ride overnight in coach again? Maybe, but if I can afford a roomette/bedroom I will most likely do that instead. Wish there was an option to take your meals from the cafe car instead of the diner though. I looked up the cafe and diner menus awhile back and I like the cafe car menus better than most of the diner ones. Might try overnight business class on the LD trains that have it.


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## greatwestern (May 13, 2020)

The only time I have travelled coach overnight was 2 years ago when my late arrival into Chicago on the Empire Builder from Seattle resulted in me missing my connection to the Capitol Ltd (and therefore missing my bedroom). Travelling onward the next day was out of the question as I would have risked missing my flight from Washington back to the UK so I ended up being put in coach on the Lake Shore Ltd (and then on a Regional from New York to Washington).

The experience was not particularly pleasant - although I had a double seat to myself I only slept fitfully and was both uncomfortable and cold.

The situation was not helped by the fact that an elderly gentleman (even older than me) sat opposite should obviously never have been travelling on his own. He was in a permanent state of confusion, did not know what his destination was (Boston was his ticketed stop) and when he very unsteadily left his seat had a tendency not to know what he wanted to do or where his seat was. I spent my waking hours worrying about that poor gentleman and wondering how anyone could have let him travel alone in his condition (I do not think he would ever have been competent enough to have arranged his own travel).

I should not really dismiss overnight coach travel on that one experience as, had I known I was going to be a coach traveller, I could have prepared better. However, as my rail travels in the USA are the prime purpose of my vacation(s), sleeper accommodation is vital to me (inclusive meals are not important). If I was simply looking to get from A to B, I might have a different view particularly as I see long distance coach fares as very reasonably priced (compared to rail fares in the UK).


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## Anderson (May 13, 2020)

I did overnight in coach...once. I was 19 and it was my first overnight train trip (Richmond to Deland and back). I've also done BC on 67 twice (NHV-WBG and PHL-NPN, respectively): One trip was when I was in college, the other a few years back when I did a bar crawl with some friends in Philly and then muddled through a few hours at 30th Street. On none of the occasions can I say I slept particularly well.

If I'm on a daylight trip, I can work with Business Class or LD coach. Regional coach is just a bit cramped for my tastes.


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## Lacunacoil (May 13, 2020)

Do the rooms go on sale when amtrak has those big sales? For instance last time I went cross country, with a sale a yway, in November it was around 40% off on regular seat. I'm seeing room for about 600 in 2 weeks chi to lax. I could do regular seat for. Ny to chi. Does that 600 price ever drop much? I would never consider except the coronavirus makes me think maybe I'll do it I think 450 would be my price to say yes regular seats like 160,140 depending on when I do it


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## caravanman (May 13, 2020)

Roomettes and other sleeper options tend not to be offered at low sale prices. They can rise very steeply in cost, but usually don't drop below a minimum price.
I don't know how the Corona Virus will impact prices, I am guessing that more passengers than usual would prefer the "isolation" of a room to themselves, so can't imagine many cheap rooms being available...


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## Michigan Mom (May 13, 2020)

There is so much to balance, in terms of the price between coach and room prices. And that of course assumes that we will have a safe society to travel around in. With job losses and the price of food increasing, it's more tempting to set aside as much as possible rather than spend extra on a sleeper. Many of us don't know if our paychecks are secure long term, many more have stopped getting one. On the other hand, it's easier to avoid virus transmission in your own enclosed space, although the air being circulated around the cars probably isn't filtered. 
Would love to see the people being paid huge salaries address these issues, and maybe even, get paid less until said issues are addressed.


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## niemi24s (May 13, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Roomettes and other sleeper options tend not to be offered at low sale prices. They can rise very steeply in cost, but usually don't drop below a minimum price.
> I don't know how the Corona Virus will impact prices, I am guessing that more passengers than usual would prefer the "isolation" of a room to themselves, so can't imagine many cheap rooms being available...


While your logic sounds good it's not borne out by the facts, at least for Roomettes. For the next 30 days you'll find low bucket (the cheapest possible) Roomettes available on 359 of the 400 travel dates - or 90% of the time. But I've no reason to think Bedrooms or Family Bedrooms would show a similar pattern.

Sampling was of one direction for each of the 16 long distance trains.


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## Everydaymatters (May 14, 2020)

Now that I am not playing the points game anymore, I did an overnight in coach from CHI to WAS in October. Oh yes! It was uncomfortable! But I really, really love the camaraderie of the people in coach. I can easily forget the overnights in sleepers, but the good memories of conversations and people I met in coach will always be with me.


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## Lacunacoil (May 14, 2020)

Everydaymatters said:


> Now that I am not playing the points game anymore, I did an overnight in coach from CHI to WAS in October. Oh yes! It was uncomfortable! But I really, really love the camaraderie of the people in coach. I can easily forget the overnights in sleepers, but the good memories of conversations and people I met in coach will always be with me.


Yes I agree I've met fun people, it's also interesting to see how everyone interacts, it's like high school, the smokers become best friends, the drug users become best friends, theres always the woman who are lonely they will have a temporary boyfriend, if he gets off before her, she will get a new boyfriend, even if she has a other boyfriend at her stop waiting. I've had woman buying me beers, just to drink with them,...that's never happened off the train, another cute woman wanted to sit next to me just so I could hold her all night, i had barely talked to her. The most interesting time was after 2 days we had a 2 hour break in el paso, 7 of us walking around on a sunday looking like some random motley cruel looking for a bar. Almost the whole city was closed but we did find a restaurant at least.


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## RovinMoses (May 15, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Most of my overnight travel in the U.S. has been in Superliners and I find the coach seats, and especially the Business Class seats, more comfortable than a Roomette. I'm tall enough to find the beds too short. For age and disability reasons I'm usually on the lower level, so there is no through traffic. I wear a hat with a brim or a visor and pull it down over my eyes against the lights.
> 
> One advantage of coach is having windows on both sides and waking up at just the right moment. This photo is from Spring Break 1967 on SP Train 12, running late, of course. In those days, coach was an economic necessity that brought a week in San Francisco within reach.
> 
> View attachment 17467



Wow -- 1967!! I remember riding the train from Wichita, Kansas to Kentucky when I was in college that year: SantaFe to KC; Missouri Pacific to St. Louis; B&O to Cincinnati; Southern to Lexington. But, your photo caught my attention because I took a similar one a couple years ago when we were running late!


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## caravanman (May 15, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> While your logic sounds good it's not borne out by the facts, at least for Roomettes. For the next 30 days you'll find low bucket (the cheapest possible) Roomettes available on 359 of the 400 travel dates - or 90% of the time. But I've no reason to think Bedrooms or Family Bedrooms would show a similar pattern.
> 
> Sampling was of one direction for each of the 16 long distance trains.



You have misunderstood my post. I was not saying that low bucket prices were not going to be available, I was responding to the query in post 94 as to whether the sleeper berths were ever sold at "sale prices", i.e. special lower than normally available prices.

Ed.


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## niemi24s (May 15, 2020)

caravanman said:


> You have misunderstood my post.


Sorry. Didn't even notice post 94.


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## Willbridge (May 17, 2020)

RovinMoses said:


> Wow -- 1967!! I remember riding the train from Wichita, Kansas to Kentucky when I was in college that year: SantaFe to KC; Missouri Pacific to St. Louis; B&O to Cincinnati; Southern to Lexington. But, your photo caught my attention because I took a similar one a couple years ago when we were running late!


Some routes are great that way, it doesn't matter what part of the trip your train is on, it's scenic or interesting or both. More from SP12 below... those are stray Sunset cars shining on the tail, through the miracle of SP service cutbacks.


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## Willbridge (May 17, 2020)

railiner said:


> I believe the Coast Starlight does, or did when I rode it....
> I don't think it's at all "worth it", as the seats are the same as any of the other Superliner coaches...and neither did other's on my trip during the Tehachapi detour...it was in fact, empty!


It tends toward peaks and valleys of demand. When regular coach demand is high, it gets some customers who shift to BC. It also fills in a marketing problem, in that the regional trains on each end have BC and so business customers expect to find it. My dad - who rode PDX<>SEA monthly or more often for his 42 years with the Seattle Times thought that they should just call day roomettes "Business Class" and make them available LAX<>SLO and EUG<>SEA.

In 1976 my wife and I with our one-year old son took a Bedroom PDX>SEA thinking it would help with our infant. As it turned out, I had the flu and it helped with me! We were not well off, but as I recall the day room charge was reasonable back then.


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## Willbridge (May 17, 2020)

railiner said:


> True windows on both sides, but aren't most of the windows covered by curtains overnight, and at dawn...?



There's usually a patchwork. People get off in Dunsmuir or McCook or Sandpoint and leave the curtains open. Chow hounds or the coffee-crazed head to the lounge to be there at opening hour. It's dark when they leave and then the sun comes up. There are the sleepyheads who leave the curtains closed till lunch. I'm surprised that there isn't a math formula worked out forecasting this behavior!


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## Geordie405 (May 19, 2020)

For me, I usually only travel coach for up to 3 - 4 hours. Anything longer than that would be a roomette if it's just a daytime trip (or overnight if just me travelling) or a bedroom if I'm with the wife. I prefer the isolation / comfort that the sleeper provides and, if you factor in meals, it can work out cheaper.

Last coach trip was probably Los Angeles - Santa Barbara which was $8 each way so an absolute bargain. 

Back in the UK train carriages were originally designated 1st Class or 3rd Class. In 1966 3rd Class was renamed to 2nd Class and then in 1987 it was again rebranded as Standard Class. On most UK services 1st Class would be 2+1 seating as opposed to 2+2 and would usually includes complimentary food and drink as part of the service offering (although the F&B service has been withdrawn due to COVID-19).


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## Qapla (May 20, 2020)

Geordie405 said:


> if you factor in meals, it can work out cheaper.



Amtrak from JAX to NYP

Coach - $121
Roomette - $444
Bedroom - $817

Somehow, it does not seem that paying an extra $323-$696 "works out cheaper" no matter what type of meals they serve ... especially not with what they are currently serving.


Now, I can understand the "isolation and comfort" factor.


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## tricia (May 20, 2020)

The price difference between coach and sleeper is highly variable. I once bought tickets for two in a roomette on the Coast Starlight from Emeryville or Oakland to LA for $50 more than it would have cost us in coach. YMMV.


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## hlcteacher (May 20, 2020)

any sleeping accommodation is so high that (and i do the costing out) i returned to coach travel (even ld) and eating three meals in the dining car and a snack or two cuz it is/was cheaper


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## caravanman (May 20, 2020)

I am always happy to bring a gallon bottle of water aboard on long distance trips, together with whatever foodstuff and snacks I fancy. I like a few coffee's and hot dogs from the café car just to have something hot. I find in coach that the dining car prices are silly for the standard of the fare available.


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## Qapla (May 20, 2020)

If I am checking baggage - I have a small "cooler" that plugs into 110/120 and will keep food hot or cold. So, if I don't have a need for any additional carry-on, I could just take that and have hot food (I can usually get ice from the cafe car)


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## crescent-zephyr (May 20, 2020)

caravanman said:


> find in coach that the dining car prices are silly for the standard of the fare available.



Out of curiosity, what price would not be silly for say... 2 scrambled eggs, potatoes, and a croissant with table service.


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## caravanman (May 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Out of curiosity, what price would not be silly for say... 2 scrambled eggs, potatoes, and a croissant with table service.


I don't think for me the issue is just about price, but the quality of the food too. I understand that one is in a captive environment, like at the airport, but I would rather spend my $8.50 plus tip on food to bring aboard with me.
I accept that with the £ plunging to a very low exchange rate against the $, my estimation of silly prices might not be the same as a US resident.

Bon Appetite!


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## HenryK (May 21, 2020)

For me the issue is traveling with a service dog. Folks in coach, especially youngsters, want to interact with him, and that is not good, for it distracts him from his job: alerting me to certain sounds. It's hard to get any sleep because passersby in the aisle often speak to the dog, waking him (and me) up. So we travel in a roomette and, if there are sufficient AGR points, a bedroom.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 21, 2020)

caravanman said:


> I don't think for me the issue is just about price, but the quality of the food too. I understand that one is in a captive environment, like at the airport, but I would rather spend my $8.50 plus tip on food to bring aboard with me.
> I accept that with the £ plunging to a very low exchange rate against the $, my estimation of silly prices might not be the same as a US resident.
> 
> Bon Appetite!



Obviously you get to make that decision, but I’m still wondering what price is not “silly” for a breakfast plate?


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## sttom (May 21, 2020)

$8.50 for a breakfast plate isn't that bad. I spend $6 on a breakfast burrito on a fairly regular basis. Even fast food quality food can cost up to $10 for a meal and some Amtrak food isn't that much better than a Jack in the Box breakfast bowl.


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## Qapla (May 21, 2020)

Not sure what an exact price that "is not silly" would be ... but, taking the actual price of the ride from JAX to NYP and subtracting the cost of the "ticket" (based on the coach price) and, figuring a hotel room runs about $100 for a night at many chains (let's face it, a roomette on a train if not a luxury room) and, since the train from JAX to NYP covers two meals ... that makes the meals cost about $111 each  for a roomette and . even if we double the room rate for a bedroom, the meals would run about $248 each .... unless you think a roomette and/or bedroom on a train is that much better than those found in chain hotels.


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## niemi24s (May 21, 2020)

A long as we're into Mickey Mouse accounting procedures (where the cost per meal is simply the sleeper upcharge divided by the number of meals) the champion seems to be the SWC for one adult in a high bucket Bedroom at $433 per meal [($1964 - 232) ÷ 4 = $433] on the Westbound train. 

The cheapest would be on the CONO at $229 per meal.

♪_ Who's the leader of the club that's made for you and me?. . . .♫ _

But for a low bucket Roomette on the CONO the cost per meal drops to $69 using this method!!!


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## Dakota 400 (May 21, 2020)

At a local small restaurant, a breakfast of 2 eggs, potatoes, and biscuit or toast (croissants would not be available at such an establishment) and coffee, would be about $8.50. That's quite reasonable, I think. Do I mind paying more having "Breakfast in the Diner"? If the food quality and service meet my expectations, I am willing to pay more just because of the experience of doing so. 

Dining in the Diner is not something that is routine for me. I am willing to pay more for such a "special experience".


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## tricia (May 21, 2020)

Breakfast is IMHO the Amtrak diners' most reasonably priced and satisfactory meal, for what you get. Dinner, on the other hand....


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## Geordie405 (May 21, 2020)

Good to see I stirred quite a few people from their slumber with my comment about food making the sleeper more cost effective 

As Tricia mentioned above, depending on the fare bucket it's possible to find sleepers that are not significantly much more than the price of a coach ticket for the journey being taken and if you then factor in what it might cost for lunch or dinner (or both) in the diner then it's value for money.

The other thing I'd emphasise is that it's all very well saying "I'll bring my own food" but if you're doing a multi-day trip then that's not always feasible or desirable. I'd like to have a decent sit-down meal on occasion rather than an endless repeating self-curated menu of cookies, or a stale sandwich or trail mix etc.

Plus dining is fun! You never know who will be sat opposite you


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## niemi24s (May 21, 2020)

Geordie405 said:


> Plus dining is fun! You never know who will be sat opposite you


While I agree with you, bear in mind that some posters here shudder in horror at the mere thought of sitting opposite (or worse yet, _next_ to) a total stranger.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Out of curiosity, what price would not be silly for say... 2 scrambled eggs, potatoes, and a croissant with table service.


Spending a tenner on breakfast sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Unfortunately this isn't a typical restaurant breakfast. Nothing is made to order and the eggs are scrambled en mass. Portions are random, potatoes are precooked and shriveled, the croissant is stale, temperature is barely above ambient, coffee is bitter, and the juice is boxed. Amtrak breakfast would be right at home in a grade school cafeteria or retirement community, and that makes it hard to spend almost anything without feeling gypped.



niemi24s said:


> While I agree with you, bear in mind that some posters here shudder in horror at the mere thought of sitting opposite (or worse yet, _next_ to) a total stranger.


Get a lot of strangers out where you live?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 21, 2020)

tricia said:


> Breakfast is IMHO the Amtrak diners' most reasonably priced and satisfactory meal, for what you get. Dinner, on the other hand....



Even dinner isn’t anything outrageous. $25 for a steak and a baked potato. 

$18.50 for a grilled chicken. 

That’s on par with a basic hotel restaurant like Hilton garden inn.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 21, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Spending a tenner on breakfast sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Unfortunately this isn't a typical restaurant breakfast. Nothing is made to order and the eggs are scrambled en mass. Portions are random, potatoes are precooked and shriveled, the croissant is stale, temperature is barely above ambient, coffee is bitter, and the juice is boxed. Amtrak breakfast would be right at home in a grade school cafeteria or retirement community, and that makes it hard to spend almost anything without feeling gypped.
> 
> 
> Get a lot of strangers out where you live?



I’ve paid more for worse quality breakfasts at hotels that’s for sure. 

The quality is inconsistent on Amtrak, but the majority of breakfasts have been very good. Including the croissant and potatoes.


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## Dakota 400 (May 21, 2020)

Geordie405 said:


> Plus dining is fun! You never know who will be sat opposite you



That is what makes traveling on Amtrak enjoyable for me. Surprisingly, I met a member of this Forum after we were seated for Breakfast on the Silver Meteor soon after departing Fort Lauderdale. Departing Washington and sharing a table for dinner on the Silver Meteor with a single dad and his 2 young sons, their first train trip, on their way to Disney World, that was another pleasant memory. The boys were so excited since they had also just boarded the train at WAS.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve paid more for worse quality breakfasts at hotels that’s for sure. The quality is inconsistent on Amtrak, but the majority of breakfasts have been very good. Including the croissant and potatoes.


What kind of top dollar hotel restaurants are you visiting that can't flip an egg to order, fry a potato, or make a fresh pot of drip coffee? Even a lowly Denny's restaurant can do that. If Amtrak meals were as good as people claim they would be able to articulate what they found so impressive instead of resorting to vague complements that say nothing about the food itself.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Even dinner isn’t anything outrageous. $25 for a steak and a baked potato. $18.50 for a grilled chicken. That’s on par with a basic hotel restaurant like Hilton garden inn.


Charging $25 for a cut people order by name isn't bad, but stringy *flat-iron *chuck served on plastic with a potato isn't worth that.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 21, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What kind of top dollar hotel restaurants are you visiting that can't flip an egg to order, fry a potato, or make a fresh pot of drip coffee?



Doubletree, Hilton, etc. yes they can cook eggs to order but the potatoes are the same type of pre-made breakfast potatoes Amtrak serves. I doubt any Hilton croissant is any fresher.* 

I’ve seen my eggs cooked to order on heritage diners as well, but I can’t say that always happens of course.

*edit to add I do remember a doubletree that had “house baked pastries” so I correct myself on that.


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## ScouseAndy (May 22, 2020)

As a foreigner I actually prefer coach. For me big part of travelling is about meeting and learning from locals, this is a lot easier in coach. That said last time I didnt a 15 day trip I splurged for 2 nights roomette for the experience.


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## caravanman (May 22, 2020)

I enjoy coach for the same reason as Andy, but if I can afford a roomette I won't say no.
Maybe the cost of all meals in the diner is not as silly as I said, breakfast is the most reasonable at $8.50, plus a coffee and tip, taking it to $13 if one includes a $2 tip. 
I was mostly responding to the post above mine, post 109, where the poster rides in coach for economy, but takes 3 meals a day in the dining car. 
I travel in coach nowadays for reasons of economy too, and say my coach fare from Chicago to Sacramento is $136 for a "value ticket", I would find it painful to then pay over $100 to partake of the cheapest dining car meals over that trip. I have eaten dozens of meals in the dining cars, so I am quite familiar with the "quality" of them.


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## MARC Rider (May 22, 2020)

sttom said:


> $8.50 for a breakfast plate isn't that bad. I spend $6 on a breakfast burrito on a fairly regular basis. Even fast food quality food can cost up to $10 for a meal and some Amtrak food isn't that much better than a Jack in the Box breakfast bowl.


Yeah, $8.50 isn't bad if your'e having a waiter bring you the food and you can eat there at a table. It should be pointed out that in food service, most of what you're paying for is not the actual food, but rather the labor needed to cook it and serve it, the cost of real estate, etc. That's why the same meal in Manhattan costs a lot more than it does in a small town in the heartland.

I think my breakfast tabs at that nice deli in right next to Dallas Union Station were around $10, or maybe a bit more, especially if you included tax and tip.


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## MARC Rider (May 22, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Yeah, $8.50 isn't bad if your'e having a waiter bring you the food and you can eat there at a table. It should be pointed out that in food service, most of what you're paying for is not the actual food, but rather the labor needed to cook it and serve it, the cost of real estate, etc. That's why the same meal in Manhattan costs a lot more than it does in a small town in the heartland.
> 
> I think my breakfast tabs at that nice deli in right next to Dallas Union Station were around $10, or maybe a bit more, especially if you included tax and tip.


Actually, come to think of it, they were in excess of $15, because I ordered the fruit cup, which was an additional $5, but highly recommended for health reasons.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Doubletree, Hilton, etc. yes they can cook eggs to order but the potatoes are the same type of pre-made breakfast potatoes Amtrak serves. I doubt any Hilton croissant is any fresher.


I think this says as much about the deterioration of Hilton as it does about the value of Amchow. I can count my visits to Doubletrees on one hand but I'm rather familiar with Hilton Garden Inns and it's true the food is not so great. That being said their coffee is acceptable, the food arrives hot, and you can make special requests. That counts for a lot in my book.



crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve seen my eggs cooked to order on heritage diners as well, but I can’t say that always happens of course. *edit to add I do remember a doubletree that had “house baked pastries” so I correct myself on that.


It's not possible for me to see what's happening on the Superliner Diners I ride but the taste and quality reminds me of generic cafeteria food more than even a basic sit down restaurant. Maybe it seems like I'm too picky or my standards are too high but I still find McDonald's breakfasts to be twice as good at half the price. Did you ever try ordering a fried egg in a heritage diner?


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## Bob Dylan (May 22, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think this says as much about the deterioration of Hilton as it does about the value of Amchow. I can count my visits to Doubletrees on one hand but I'm rather familiar with Hilton Garden Inns and it's true the food is not so great. That being said their coffee is acceptable, the food arrives hot, and you can make special requests. That counts for a lot in my book.
> 
> 
> It's not possible for me to see what's happening on the Superliner Diners I ride but the taste and quality reminds me of generic cafeteria food more than even a basic sit down restaurant. Maybe it seems like I'm too picky or my standards are too high but I still find McDonald's breakfasts to be twice as good at half the price. Did you ever try ordering a fried egg in a heritage diner?


I ate many Breakfasts in the Heritage Diners.

I especially remember ordering my Eggs to taste( Sunny Side Up!), along with Virginia Ham,Grits and a Biscuit on the Southern Crescent as it rolled through Virginia watching the Sun come up on the way from Atlanta to Washington.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 22, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Did you ever try ordering a fried egg in a heritage diner?



Actually yes. But it was a unique situation where I knew the server from previous trips. It was also a superliner diner not a heritage. 

The problem with Amtrak is the consistency. I’ve had terrible food on Amtrak so I can’t argue with your personal experiences because the food you were served could have easily been as bad as you describe.


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## hlcteacher (May 22, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> At a local small restaurant, a breakfast of 2 eggs, potatoes, and biscuit or toast (croissants would not be available at such an establishment) and coffee, would be about $8.50. That's quite reasonable, I think. Do I mind paying more having "Breakfast in the Diner"? If the food quality and service meet my expectations, I am willing to pay more just because of the experience of doing so.
> 
> Dining in the Diner is not something that is routine for me. I am willing to pay more for such a "special experience".


Nope, more like $4.99 here


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## Dakota 400 (May 22, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> Nope, more like $4.99 here



That's a really good price if the food quality is good and the service acceptable to friendly.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 22, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> That's a really good price if the food quality is good and the service acceptable to friendly.



It’s a small town local diner price. That price does exist, but nobody should expect prices like that when traveling. I would argue that Amtrak dining car prices are too low actually.... but then you get into the quality of service, quality of some entrees and inconsistency. 

Ideally, the dining car kitchen should be making at-seat meals for Coach passengers. That increases dining car sales, improves service to Coach passengers and uses existing staff.


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## Dakota 400 (May 22, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s a small town local diner price. That price does exist, but nobody should expect prices like that when traveling. I would argue that Amtrak dining car prices are too low actually.... but then you get into the quality of service, quality of some entrees and inconsistency.



The $4.99 price previously reported by a Member is quite a bargain for those patrons, but surely not any where close to what I expect to pay for a breakfast when I travel. 

For a number of reasons last July, while visiting Denali Park and staying at a motel across from HAL's McKinley Lodge which was across the street from where I was, I chose to have a breakfast at that hotel. I expected a big bill; OK, but, not exceptional service; food quality being good. Our breakfast was delicious, well prepared and properly served, and very appropriately priced.


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## caravanman (May 23, 2020)

At the end of the day, it simply comes down to personal circumstances, outlook, and location. What seems expensive to me may well seem like a cheap bargain to someone else. No problem, same the world over.
Gosh, I would even pay $20 for an Amtrak hotdog everyday if the corona virus would only vanish and let me ride the trains again!


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## Eric in East County (May 23, 2020)

How much would Amtrak have to charge for a typical meal assuming that the goal was to operate the dining car on a break even basis or perhaps at a slight profit?

Eric & Pat


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## caravanman (May 23, 2020)

Eric in East County said:


> How much would Amtrak have to charge for a typical meal assuming that the goal was to operate the dining car on a break even basis or perhaps at a slight profit?
> Eric & Pat



The problem with "breaking even" is that you have to decide what that means to you...
Should the price of a meal cover the costs of the ingredients, the cost of the heat to cook, and the cost of the staff wages, or should it also cover the cost of the wear and tear on the kitchen, the damages caused by breakages, and even the wear and tear on the seats, laundry of the table cloths and wear and tear on the dining car chassis and the rails? Sadly, the idea of cutting costs or breaking even is not that straightforward.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2020)

Eric in East County said:


> How much would Amtrak have to charge for a typical meal assuming that the goal was to operate the dining car on a break even basis or perhaps at a slight profit?
> 
> Eric & Pat



There’s not a simple answer. Which is the problem. There is the physical cost, and maintenance on the dining care itself, there is the staffing and taking car of said staff (hotels and transport at the terminal, roomette space on the train,) the cost of delivery, cost of food & supplies and food waste.

Now after all that it’s how you operate the car. Do you create an upscale restaurant that costs $50 for dinner? If you do you can take the staffing way down but you’re only going to be feeding a small amount of the guests. 

Do you operate it like a counter service Panera bread. Order the food, someone brings it to you and that’s it? Again you can take the service levels down and save some money there. 

And there are lots of other variables too. 

Personally I would push the “at your seat” meals to the coach passengers, and offer all sleeping car passengers to use room service. This lowers the demand in the dining room and allows more meals to be served without hiring more staff. (The coach and sleeper attendants would be serving those meals).


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## Qapla (May 23, 2020)

A place to start for setting a price is to use the typical basic restaurant premise - you take the "food cost" and triple it for the "sale cost"

So, if the ingredients to make the meal cost $5 - the least you should sell that meal for is $15 (selling it for more than $20 it a good way to lose sales). If you are not turning a profit at three times the actual food cost, you need to reexamine your business model and find out why.

This calculation works for brick & mortar stores as well as food trucks .... so, it should work for Amtrak.

Letting those in coach book meals in the dining car would help lower the overall operating cost per meal ... as with any restaurant, the more people you serve with the same staff, the less per meal it is costing you.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2020)

Qapla said:


> This calculation works for brick & mortar stores as well as food trucks .... so, it should work for Amtrak.



That calculation doesn’t even work for hotel restaurants. There is no possible way it would work for Amtrak.


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## caravanman (May 23, 2020)

Folk in coach can book diner meals, the first options go to the sleeper passengers, as they have already paid in advance, as it were...


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## Eric in East County (May 23, 2020)

It is our understanding that, even back during the so called “golden age” of rail travel, the railroads made little or no profit from their dining cars.

Eric & Pat


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## caravanman (May 24, 2020)

Eric in East County said:


> It is our understanding that, even back during the so called “golden age” of rail travel, the railroads made little or no profit from their dining cars.
> Eric & Pat



Once again, it is hard to say how to judge these things. If you are going to, say, have a train that is 100% occupied, every seat taken, when a dining car is on the consist, but it drops to 75% seat occupancy if there is no dining car, then although there is an "expense" of running the dinning car, that may make the overall train revenue more profitable.

A bit like the rest rooms, they cost money to have, they "don't make a profit" but the train would be pretty empty without them...


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## MARC Rider (May 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Personally I would push the “at your seat” meals to the coach passengers, and offer all sleeping car passengers to use room service. This lowers the demand in the dining room and allows more meals to be served without hiring more staff. (The coach and sleeper attendants would be serving those meals).



Given the cutbacks over the past years in the number of coach and sleeping car attendants, there might not be enough to do the job properly, at least on full trains. Also, can one roll and airline-style food cart between train cars?


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## MARC Rider (May 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> A place to start for setting a price is to use the typical basic restaurant premise - you take the "food cost" and triple it for the "sale cost"
> 
> So, if the ingredients to make the meal cost $5 - the least you should sell that meal for is $15 (selling it for more than $20 it a good way to lose sales). If you are not turning a profit at three times the actual food cost, you need to reexamine your business model and find out why.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how that sort of simplistic model can be universally applicable. That $5 worth of ingredients is going to have to be sold at vastly different prices, depending on the location, local prevailing pay for workers, cost of financing, etc. all of which are highly variable. For example, a deli in Manhattan is just going to be more expensive than the same deli food in, say, Charlotte, NC. That might explain why I paid $12 for a bagel with lox in Manhattan, but only $7.00 for the same type of bagel and lox in Charlotte (or Portland Maine.) If I made the sandwich myself, I would probably pay about $4-$5 for the food, but, of course, a restaurant can get the food wholesale.

And I think that a common argument here is that it's quite possible that the dining car service isn't losing the kind of money that is being claimed. If that's the case, then the real problem with Amtrak dining car service isn't the prices of the food, but rather the variety, the fact that shortages occur too frequently, and the fact that their throughput isn't large enough, so that people who might want to eat in the dining car can't. I suspect that with proper accounting, they could justify (through increased revenue) increasing staff to serve more people more efficiently, having the dining cars open (and thus able to make money) longer hours, separating meal charges from room fares, and all the other stuff that's been discussed here ad nauseum.


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## Qapla (May 24, 2020)

The "3 time food cost" is the "rule of thumb" for food service ... it is not a "locked-in formula" that can't be adjusted

However, adjusting it disproportionately high kills sales rather than making additional revenue.

In your illustration, while it is true that location can have an impact on actual profit margins and therefore price setting, if a restaurant opens in a place with unusually high rent - they may not be able to adjust their price up enough to make up the difference ... that is one of the reasons many restaurants fail.

Amtrak may need to have "slightly" higher prices than a land-based place - but they cannot have disproportionately high prices just because they have a captive clientele ... there is a limit to how much people will pay for food, especially if that food is not up to the quality expected for the price.


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## Skyline (May 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I'm not sure how that sort of simplistic model can be universally applicable. That $5 worth of ingredients is going to have to be sold at vastly different prices, depending on the location, local prevailing pay for workers, cost of financing, etc. all of which are highly variable. For example, a deli in Manhattan is just going to be more expensive than the same deli food in, say, Charlotte, NC. That might explain why I paid $12 for a bagel with lox in Manhattan, but only $7.00 for the same type of bagel and lox in Charlotte (or Portland Maine.) If I made the sandwich myself, I would probably pay about $4-$5 for the food, but, of course, a restaurant can get the food wholesale.
> 
> And I think that a common argument here is that it's quite possible that the dining car service isn't losing the kind of money that is being claimed. If that's the case, then the real problem with Amtrak dining car service isn't the prices of the food, but rather the variety, the fact that shortages occur too frequently, and the fact that their throughput isn't large enough, so that people who might want to eat in the dining car can't. I suspect that with proper accounting, they could justify (through increased revenue) increasing staff to serve more people more efficiently, having the dining cars open (and thus able to make money) longer hours, separating meal charges from room fares, and all the other stuff that's been discussed here ad nauseum.



Separating food charges from accommodation charges would be a great start. Encouraging coach pax to use the dining car if they want to would be another. And being open longer hours, when the pax manifest is large, would be yet another.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Given the cutbacks over the past years in the number of coach and sleeping car attendants, there might not be enough to do the job properly, at least on full trains. Also, can one roll and airline-style food cart between train cars?



They just did the at your seat meals a couple of years ago.. I wasn’t aware of any cuts to attendants recently?


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## Willbridge (May 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> They just did the at your seat meals a couple of years ago.. I wasn’t aware of any cuts to attendants recently?


I wasn't in on the design, but Superliner coaches seemed to have assumed that one coach = one attendant. As a frequent coach passenger, I wouldn't mind being snubbed in the dining car if pushing those redundant call buttons actually did something. People eating at their seats on a long trip need someone to keep the place tidy. As a person with Parkinson's, I've noticed that it makes other passengers nervous when I'm carrying a full-blown meal down the aisle (because the coach attendant is busy hauling meals for the seriously disabled).

I know it's hard to do the accounting, but Amtrak needs to figure out whether it's cheaper to staff up the coaches or serve good food in the snack bars or condescend to let coach passengers choose to eat in the diner.



ScouseAndy said:


> As a foreigner I actually prefer coach. For me big part of travelling is about meeting and learning from locals, this is a lot easier in coach. That said last time I didnt a 15 day trip I splurged for 2 nights roomette for the experience.



Andy, as an American I like to meet people from different parts of my own country, too.


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## BoulderCO (May 24, 2020)

Yes, I think they should warmly welcome coach passengers in the dining car rather than treat them as an afterthought. More volume in the diner should be a good thing if they manage it correctly. When I travel in coach I always try for dinner in the dining car, but even when we were allowed to eat there they didn't make it easy. I often got missed when they were taking reservations. With everyone having phones these days, they really need to modernize their reservations system. They complain about not having enough employees to do the service and yet have someone wandering around the train trying to take reservations. It would be great just to have an app on my phone that would allow me to select from available times for dinner!


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## Dakota 400 (May 25, 2020)

BoulderCO said:


> With everyone having phones these days,



This is a common misconception.


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## sttom (May 25, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> This is a common misconception.


According to Pew Research 96% of Americans have a cell phone and 81% of them have a smartphone. Even a majority of people over 65 have a smart phone. The problem Amtrak would face is keeping a stable data signal, not riders lacking smartphones.


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## Skyline (May 26, 2020)

As often as the regular Amtrak website is down, why should we expect some mobile app required to schedule dinner reservations to be any different? 

Can you imagine the chaos on board a train if the app was down for six critical hours? The Amtrak website outage often spans DAYS, not hours.


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## sttom (May 26, 2020)

I'm not sure how Amtrak structures its website or IT systems in general, but one solution is to use an off the shelf system like OpenTable or Yelp to manage its reservations so if the system goes down, at least its not on Amtrak. And if it does, there will be a dedicated team working on the outage. 

As for Amtrak's existing IT system, I have no idea how they structure their ecosystem. The problem is likely on who ever the developers are and/or the people that host the website and/or who ever handles the sales and/or how the station staff/ticket machines work with the system. The point is there are a lot of places where an IT system can fail and this potential increases whenever you have more systems interacting with each other.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2020)

The Amtrak routes do not have consistent cell and wifi service. Until that changes, it’s really not an option. 

And that’s if we ever see the return of traditional dining cars.


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## Shortline (May 27, 2020)

Well, it's no longer First Class, that's for sure. But I only do coach on corridor day trains, on long distance trains, even for day trips, I book a sleeper generally for anything over 4 hours. Overnight, I will have a sleeper, or I will fly. I have no desire to do overnights in coach, ever again. It was fine, when I was a young Airman, bouncing between training stations, but I'm not 18 anymore and greatly value my privacy, and comfort. Same concept when I fly, anything over 4 hours, and I'm in business, or first class.

That's not a commentary on those who do. I know many quite wealthy persons, who fly coach, and would even coach Amtrak overnight to save a dollar. I guess that's why they're wealthy. Or at least, how they got there. But I am just at a point in my life, where I can spend the money, and do, or just don't bother. While I do buy First Class tickets typically for transcon flights or overseas, most of my flying domestically is on Southwest, which as you all know, is all coach. I could have enough status on Delta or American, to be upgraded free, 99% of the time, but I really dig Southwest, their Rapid Rewards program is perfect for me. Having Companion Pass status for the last several years meant my wife, or son, would fly with me anytime they wanted, for next to no cost. That alone, was worth it. And honestly, other than no first class seats, I find the service, and FF program perks better on SW than on any other airline I have ever held status on. So yeah, I don't avoid coach because of a class, or status thing, I just really appreciate the comfort, privacy, and convenience of sleeping cars, day, or night.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 27, 2020)

I’m with you shortline! I bounce between southwest, American and delta. I love the rewards and cancellation policy of southwest but I really hurt my back on a long southwest flight due to the tight seating. I have flown since then on southwest but I choose first class on delta or American now unless the schedule or price doesn’t work out for me. 

Honestly, for a little more $$$ you get better service, better seating, etc. in the busy airports and train stations priority boarding and security is worth it alone. I’d much rather be settling into my seat (with a pre-departure drink on a flight!) then crowding around a gate hoping there is room for my carry on.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Amtrak routes do not have consistent cell and wifi service. Until that changes, it’s really not an option. And that’s if we ever see the return of traditional dining cars.


All they need is a "now seating" sign in the lounge car. Repeatedly addressing _the entire train_ because they're finally ready for one or two tables to be seated is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 30, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> All they need is a "now seating" sign in the lounge car. Repeatedly addressing _the entire train_ because they're finally ready for one or two tables to be seated is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.



How about refusing service to a deaf family who was patiently waiting in the lounge car but didn’t come when they called their name over the pa?


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## Asher (May 31, 2020)

ScouseAndy said:


> As a foreigner I actually prefer coach. For me big part of travelling is about meeting and learning from locals, this is a lot easier in coach. That said last time I didnt a 15 day trip I splurged for 2 nights roomette for the experience.


I know you are surrounded by more people in coach than a roomette. But, except for maybe being in a crowded situation how is it easier to meet people. Seems to me it's about the same as getting on a plane. I know on a long trip you see others more often, that don't mean you can have a conversation. I see the lounge, cafe, observation, dining car a good place to meet folks, both coach and roomette riders.


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