# Trains reversing at terminal stations



## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 9, 2022)

There still a lot of dead end terminal in Europe. Some are getting rebuilt to for thur traffic, others have had additional tracks installed that are for thur traffic.

Frankfurt am Main terminal.
Stuttgart rebuild in progress.
Zurich basement tracks for thur traffic.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 9, 2022)

Rover said:


> Federal Taxpayer Trillion dollar infrastructure money can smooth over much of the mis-steps and bad planning. Amtrak having to back out of the station is such a joke to me. Does Europe, or China, or Japan have such?? I don't think so!


Well, I know for sure that they do it in Venice. And all of the major stations in Paris. And London. And I think a bunch of other places in Europe.


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## jis (Feb 9, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, I know for sure that they do it in Venice. And all of the major stations in Paris. And London. And I think a bunch of other places in Europe.


Indeed! Many trains reverse direction in stations that are not even terminal stations for that matter. It is really not that unusual. It all depends on how the junction is laid out relative to the platforms.


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## Rover (Feb 10, 2022)

jis said:


> Indeed! Many trains reverse direction in stations that are not even terminal stations for that matter. It is really not that unusual. It all depends on how the junction is laid out relative to the platforms.


Thanks for letting me know.


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## west point (Feb 11, 2022)

WASH US could be a back in station. If trains on the old B&O or PRR came into WUS from PHL area and proceeded out on the B&O west bound a back in will be required. Not that I ever expect that but in the future who knows?

BON = Boston North station has potential to be a back in station if thru trains from Maine continue thru BON towards Springfield.

LAX is a back in station for thru LD trains which there are none right now. The coasters just change ends in most cases unless there is a problem with control at one end. However LAX will change once the thru tracks are constructed.

New Orleans is a back in station for thru trains which have not occurred since Katrina cancelled the Sunset east.

"IF" a new ATL station is ever built there is a possibility that it will become a back in station even it is only a short back in from a loop track. No way to tell right now.

"IF" a reinstated Broadway ever was restored then at PHL 30th street who knows?

Thru trains at CHI highly unlikely but still would need some backing in if ever implemented.

Even more unlikely. If part of the old STL train station had to be used, then a definite back in for thru trains.

EDIT: "IF" the old Jacksonville Union Station was restored to use then certain thru routes would need to back in of back out.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 12, 2022)

west point said:


> "IF" a reinstated Broadway ever was restored then at PHL 30th street who knows?


IIRC the last incarnation of the Broadway the 3 Rivers the train arrived at 30th street with an electric which was uncoupled then the Diesels added at the other end. Maybe the Pennsylvanian does this also? So there was no backup move involved.


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## jis (Feb 12, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> IIRC the last incarnation of the Broadway the 3 Rivers the train arrived at 30th street with an electric which was uncoupled then the Diesels added at the other end. Maybe the Pennsylvanian does this also? So there was no backup move involved.


Yes. The Pennsylvanian changes power at Philly.

Once the new Amfleet I replacement corridor train sets are deployed, all this will become a non-issue since they will be double ended.


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## jiml (Feb 12, 2022)

Amtrak has definitely backed the Capitol into WAS on arrival, when not running late. One of my kids had the privilege (back in the day) of operating the little lever on the air hose that worked as a pseudo horn from our sleeper on the rear - under the conductor's direction of course.

Another example was when the Adirondack briefly continued to Washington from NYP. The dual-power unit hauled the train into the platform, the electric was connected to the rear and the train departed southbound leaving the diesel behind.


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## Siegmund (Feb 13, 2022)

In the moderately ancient past, I rode on a CZ and a LSL that wyed and then backed into Chicago. I had the impression that, at one time, it was their normal procedure to keep the noise and fumes away from the passengers. I haven't been that far east in quite a while - I gather from this thread that it's not being done, at least not often, anymore.

For non-terminals, Denver is a stub.


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## A M (Feb 13, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> IIRC the last incarnation of the Broadway the 3 Rivers the train arrived at 30th street with an electric which was uncoupled then the Diesels added at the other end. Maybe the Pennsylvanian does this also? So there was no backup move involved.


I recently took the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and was told that after all passengers disembark, that the train then leaves the station and turns around at either Homestead or Homewood, I think I remember that correctly, but it's a nearby rail line that is used to turn the train around and back it into the station to be pre-positioned for the morning departure.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 13, 2022)

Hey, let's not forget Tampa! That's a stub end station, and the Silver Star is continuing on, either to Miami or New York. There's a wye somewhere, and they back it into the station on arrival, if my memory is correct.


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## PaTrainFan (Feb 13, 2022)

A M said:


> I recently took the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and was told that after all passengers disembark, that the train then leaves the station and turns around at either Homestead or Homewood, I think I remember that correctly, but it's a nearby rail line that is used to turn the train around and back it into the station to be pre-positioned for the morning departure.



This is accurate. I believe it wye's in Homewood.


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## Joe from PA (Feb 14, 2022)

At least in the "old days", the NYC/Chicago bound Broadway Limited stopped at the smaller station at North Broad Street so it did not loose any time going into downtown Philadelphia. The south-bound trains would use the PRR terminal downtown.


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## jis (Feb 14, 2022)

Joe from PA said:


> At least in the "old days", the NYC/Chicago bound Broadway Limited stopped at the smaller station at North Broad Street so it did not loose any time going into downtown Philadelphia. The south-bound trains would use the PRR terminal downtown.


This is factually confusing at many levels.

Broadway Limited NY section stopped at North Philadelphia station on the NEC.

The other section stopped at 30th Street Station, which is not downtown by any measure, and is not a terminal station.

The "downtown" PRR station was Suburban Station, which is where the Keystone service trains originated and terminated and which then was a terminal station.

North Broad Street Station was on the Reading side and a few blocks from the Pennsy North Philadelphia station. It was not served by any section of the Broadway Limited.

During that period the sections combined/separated at Harrisburg. There was a different period of time when the trains separated/joined at 30th Street Station too and at that point the New York section stopped serving North Philadelphia.


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## cirdan (Feb 14, 2022)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There still a lot of dead end terminal in Europe. Some are getting rebuilt to for thur traffic, others have had additional tracks installed that are for thur traffic.
> 
> Frankfurt am Main terminal.
> Stuttgart rebuild in progress.
> Zurich basement tracks for thur traffic.



In the case of Zurich, the reversal itself is not really a big issue as they are set up to reverse trains pretty quickly. The purpose of the thru tracks is more to add capacity and reduce journey times as the new tunnel effectively provides a new route into the station without any of the old ones being removed. As the number of trains continues to grow this capacity will be needed.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 14, 2022)

jis said:


> The "downtown" PRR station was Suburban Station, which is where the Keystone service trains originated and terminated and which then was a terminal station.



Actually, and this was before my time, there was Broad St. Station located next door to Suburban Station. Apparently, at least some Main Line trains from the west came into Broad St. Station and then backed out and went on to New York. The station closed in 1952.


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## jis (Feb 14, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, and this was before my time, there was Broad St. Station located next door to Suburban Station. Apparently, at least some Main Line trains from the west came into Broad St. Station and then backed out and went on to New York. The station closed in 1952.


Yes. But I don't think the Broadway Limited, and specially the New York section ever made it there. The North Broad St. station is the one that was close to the North Philadelphia Pennsy station. The New York section of the Broadway Limited did call at North Philadelphia which someone could have misremembered as the North Broad Street station as they are close to each other.


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## neroden (Feb 16, 2022)

Siegmund said:


> In the moderately ancient past, I rode on a CZ and a LSL that wyed and then backed into Chicago. I had the impression that, at one time, it was their normal procedure to keep the noise and fumes away from the passengers. I haven't been that far east in quite a while - I gather from this thread that it's not being done, at least not often, anymore.



Yeah, they used to do that. They stopped because it burns passenger time -- can add 5 to 10 minutes to runtime. It was decided that it was better to pull in forward, unload, then back out and wye without passengers before loading the next group of passengers. This is correct, since all trains terminate at Chicago.



> For non-terminals, Denver is a stub.


And at Denver the fuelling point is at the far end from the bumper blocks, and the platform is short enough that if they didn't back in, some of the cars would be off the main platform onto the service platform. So they have to back in. Plus they have to either reverse on the way in or on the way out, so it goes into passenger time either way; whether to do it on the Denver-Salt Lake segment or the Denver-Chicago segment is six of one and half a dozen of the other.


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## neroden (Feb 16, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, and this was before my time, there was Broad St. Station located next door to Suburban Station. Apparently, at least some Main Line trains from the west came into Broad St. Station and then backed out and went on to New York. The station closed in 1952.


This, by the way, is the cause of the weirdo naming of "Suburban Station". It was "Broad Street Suburban Station" as opposed to "Broad Street Mainline Station". This naming got lost in 1952 and has confused people ever since.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 16, 2022)

neroden said:


> This, by the way, is the cause of the weirdo naming of "Suburban Station". It was "Broad Street Suburban Station" as opposed to "Broad Street Mainline Station". This naming got lost in 1952 and has confused people ever since.


For a while SEPTA was trying to get people to call it "Penn Center Station" but that never caught on and they eventually gave up and went back to "Suburban Station".


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## jis (Feb 16, 2022)

Here is a reasonably informative Wiki article on the Broad Street Station which was a main line terminal station in its heyday...









Broad Street Station (Philadelphia) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





And in keeping with the theme of this thread, it was indeed a reversing station.


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## DCAKen (Feb 16, 2022)

The Vermonter does a backup move at Springfield on the tracks south of the station. The northbound backs out of Springfield after the station stop and the southbound backs in before the station stop.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 17, 2022)

neroden said:


> Yeah, they used to do that. They stopped because it burns passenger time -- can add 5 to 10 minutes to runtime. It was decided that it was better to pull in forward, unload, then back out and wye without passengers before loading the next group of passengers. This is correct, since all trains terminate at Chicago.
> 
> 
> And at Denver the fuelling point is at the far end from the bumper blocks, and the platform is short enough that if they didn't back in, some of the cars would be off the main platform onto the service platform. So they have to back in. Plus they have to either reverse on the way in or on the way out, so it goes into passenger time either way; whether to do it on the Denver-Salt Lake segment or the Denver-Chicago segment is six of one and half a dozen of the other.


The Texas Eagle #22/#422 used to back into Union Station in Chicago and in Ft Worth past the Infamous and now gone Tower 55.This stopped when the Train was rerouted from the UP Main to the TRE Tracks to Dallas.

The Eagle #22/#422 also backs out San Antonio's Sunset Station since it has to change tracks from the old SP Route( now UP) to the old Katy/Mopac Tracks when leaving the next morning for Chicago.


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## jruff001 (Feb 17, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Hey, let's not forget Tampa! That's a stub end station, and the Silver Star is continuing on, either to Miami or New York. There's a wye somewhere, and they back it into the station on arrival, if my memory is correct.


Yep, in Ybor City (a neighborhood in Tampa) at 7th Ave and what would be 37th St if it wasn't a RR right of way.


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## neroden (Feb 17, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> For a while SEPTA was trying to get people to call it "Penn Center Station" but that never caught on and they eventually gave up and went back to "Suburban Station".


They should probably just rename it "City Hall Station". And rename the Trolley station and the Market-Frankford Line stations "City Hall Station" too. The Broad Street Line has the right station name...


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## MARC Rider (Feb 18, 2022)

neroden said:


> They should probably just rename it "City Hall Station". And rename the Trolley station and the Market-Frankford Line stations "City Hall Station" too. The Broad Street Line has the right station name...


When I was a kid riding the Pennsy and Penn Central, the conductors would call it "Penn Center Suburban Station." But all the signage just called it "Suburban Station."


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## jis (Feb 18, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> When I was a kid riding the Pennsy and Penn Central, the conductors would call it "Penn Center Suburban Station." But all the signage just called it "Suburban Station."


Apparently there was a period when they tried to change the name to "Penn Center Station", but no one played along so they gave up.


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## Willbridge (Feb 19, 2022)

neroden said:


> ...................
> And at Denver the fueling point is at the far end from the bumper blocks, and the platform is short enough that if they didn't back in, some of the cars would be off the main platform onto the service platform. So, they have to back in. Plus, they have to either reverse on the way in or on the way out, so it goes into passenger time either way; whether to do it on the Denver-Salt Lake segment or the Denver-Chicago segment is six of one and half a dozen of the other.


In Denver, Diesels have to stay out from under the trainshed. And fueling out there also keeps that operation away from the public.


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