# Trains in Mexico pre-Privatization



## Anderson (Oct 26, 2011)

I was wondering if anybody knew what the state of the passenger services in Mexico were like through the mid-1990s. I know the last two all-Pullmans were running down there in the late 1960s...how long did those manage to hold on? And were the services that ran through 1997 still reasonably good, or was it more reminiscent of the Penn Central towards the end?

Also, what were ridership figures looking like at that point (if anyone knows)? (i.e. Did they manage to start treading water like Amtrak did from the 80s onward, or was there a steady decline in place?)


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## rrdude (Oct 26, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I was wondering if anybody knew what the state of the passenger services in Mexico were like through the mid-1990s. I know the last two all-Pullmans were running down there in the late 1960s...how long did those manage to hold on? And were the services that ran through 1997 still reasonably good, or was it more reminiscent of the Penn Central towards the end?
> 
> Also, what were ridership figures looking like at that point (if anyone knows)? (i.e. Did they manage to start treading water like Amtrak did from the 80s onward, or was there a steady decline in place?)


I can only give you anecdotal, first-person rider views. In 1983, I surprised my then-wife with a trip on the Aztec Eagle(?)

Ran from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City. The train had MANY, MANY, MANY classes of service. From Pullmans (which we opted for) to "Chicken Cars". (nothing but wooden benches, open windows, and chickens in cages, goats, etc., etc. RIGHT OUT of a National Geographic film)

Pullman was mostly foreigners, and rich Mexicans. Attendant spoke no English, but that was OK, as the couple in the bedroom next to us were also American, and spoke fluent Spanish. We quickly became friends with this American couple, and shortly took down the partition between the two rooms.

Not knowing what to expect meal-wise, I had a new, plastic, brightly colored Coleman-brand cooler full of lunch meat and snacks. It was not really necessary, as the Eagle had a couple of food-service options on board.

The BEST food though, was what was offered by the vendors on board, and those who met the train at each stop. Thank God for the couple we met, as they guided us as to what to eat, and what NOT to eat. (and drink)

I quickly learned a bit of Spanish, "Mas cervaza", and was pretty content the whole trip.

"Walking the train" was my favorite part of the trip, that and the stops. It was like a jump back in time. Stations full of people, vendors, beggars, tourists, locals.........like I said "National Geographic" right outside the window.

From the Pullman all-bedroom, the "Class" went down, in sequential order. Next car was the roomettes, then the next was sections, then "first class" coach, (air conditioned, plush seats) then coach, then tourist class, then, "donkey class". I will never forget walking thru the last couple of cars. Passengers cooking meals, animals in cages, and loose. Amazing.

Train passed thru some beautiful country, as we rolled up the gangplank to Mexico City's elevated locale.

It wasn't easy making reservations in pre-Internet, pre-cell phone days. All phone and mail. The price was just criminally cheap, less than $100 for two of us. The accommodations in the Pullman were pretty much spot-on. And the toilets were original, straight-drop. No showers of course, but for only one night, it was doable.

So, not much a report on the equipment per se, but that's all I can remember.


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## bobnabq (Oct 26, 2011)

With all the cartel murders in Mexico these days, would anyone take a train trip into Mexico?

I used to go into Tijuana, Baja Norte and Palomas, Chihuahua

many times, just to shop and wander about.

I'd love to take a trip by rail similar to what you described here.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 26, 2011)

:hi: I too rode the Aztec Eagle many times from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico (City!) The highlites were already covered well, the equipment was mostly old Missouri Pacific cars mixed with with, as was said, an amzing assortment of everything from Livestock Carriers to old NdeM Army Troop Carriers! (The Army used to ride the Trains as a means of Transportation!) My favorite sight was a Campesino with his machette on the way to San Luis Potosi, no-one messed with him! As was said, it was incredibly cheap, we had Bedrooms with meals for like $25 in the 60s and as late as the 80s it was still under $100 for two!!!(Cheaper than the busses which were dirt cheap!!) And talk about OTP, it didnt matter, Slow? So what! Manana! :wub: The average was two days/two nights, sort of like the CZ or EB but with more entertainment!

As to other Trains, there were lots of locals all over the Country that the Country Folks used to get to the markets, cities etc., sort of like a bus on rails! The Copper Canyon Route (still a for Profit operation) was great, there was the First Class Train for Tourists, and the Second Class for the natives( probably the slowest Train in the World!)There was also a Crack Overnight Train with Pullmans that ran between Mexico and Guadalajara, I once saw the President of Mexicos' wife riding, great parlor and food car on that one! 

As was said, its is much too dangerous now in Mexico, I understand that tthe Army rides and guards the Copper Canyon Train at all stops and there is a Tourist Train that runs between Guadalajara and Tequila (where the distilleries are) that is also protected by Armed Gurards! :help:

Sadly I think one would have to go to South America to see similar Trains to those that used to run on Mexicos extensive Rail Network! As the song says, "Those were the days my friend, I thought theyd never end!"


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## amtkstn (Oct 26, 2011)

A few things I noticed on a trip through Mexico was the sidetrack were so short, the passenger trains were put in the hole for the freight trains to pass.


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## Anderson (Oct 26, 2011)

Well, I wouldn't go to Mexico today (I cannot believe that I'm saying this, but I'm nostalgic for the PRI anymore), but I was wondering about that. I can tell why the routes were dropped, based on those prices (and especially after the devaluation in the mid-1990s, those fares would probably have been legalized theft, period), but it _is_ a shame to see that gone.


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## rrdude (Oct 27, 2011)

It was downright criminal how Mexico, almost overnight, just swept their passenger trains under the rugs, and substituted "buses".

I guess they saw the USA and Canada do _almost_ the same thing, and figured, "Why not"?

Anyone ever seen a good book, or documentation on the details of this?

Something like "Who shot the *Mexican* Passenger Train?"

I'd be interested in learning more of the "background" or politics on this. I'm sure the current freight railroads rolling along the tracks in Mexico, and happy not to be bothered by the loathsome passenger train.


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## Anderson (Oct 27, 2011)

rrdude said:


> It was downright criminal how Mexico, almost overnight, just swept their passenger trains under the rugs, and substituted "buses".
> 
> I guess they saw the USA and Canada do _almost_ the same thing, and figured, "Why not"?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that part of the problem was that NdeM was losing money all over the place, and I think it had a reputation as being corrupt. IIRC, some US railroads wouldn't let their railcars cross the border for fear of not getting them back. The other thing is that a _lot_ of countries in Latin America dropped passenger service during the 1990s.

Of course, it's quite possible that several bidders on the Mexican railroads informed the government that dropping passenger service was a precondition of bidding on part of the line (witness what happened down in Georgia when the Georgia Railroad was merged into what became CSX: Tax break or no, the mixed trains got thrown out).


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## DET63 (Nov 24, 2011)

amtkstn said:


> A few things I noticed on a trip through Mexico was the sidetrack were so short, the passenger trains were put in the hole for the freight trains to pass.


What happened if two long freight trains met with a short hole?

Can you say, "Double saw-by"?


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 25, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Anyone ever seen a good book, or documentation on the details of this? Something like "Who shot the *Mexican* Passenger Train?" I'd be interested in learning more of the "background" or politics on this.


No, but I'd be very interested to read one.


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## Anderson (Nov 26, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone ever seen a good book, or documentation on the details of this? Something like "Who shot the *Mexican* Passenger Train?" I'd be interested in learning more of the "background" or politics on this.
> ...


So would I. I've taken my guess above, but I'll throw a bit more in:

-It is entirely possible that the Mexican passenger service might have been near break-even, or even that some segments were profitable. I'm not saying that this was the case, but it's possible (note that the Copper Canyon trains, one tourist and one local, still run at a combined profit, though I can't say if the local is profitable or not). I'm also not sure about the personnel-related cost structures down there, but I'll bet they were able to run at least _somewhat_ cheaper in Mexico.

-It's worth noting that most passenger services were nationalized from _long_ ago. There were exceptions (again, the Copper Canyon train jumps to mind), but they were exceptions.

-However, one of the buyers was Kansas City Southern, who hadn't run passenger services in about 30 years at the time. I don't think they wanted to either go through the hassle of starting up a new passenger services division for KCSdeM or risk having this alien operation on their books that very few folks in management understood anymore (or remembered all the details of).

-Also, the fleet was probably old. From what I've heard, there's nothing to say that NdeM put the money into updating their passenger fleet like they probably needed to...though they did acquire a lot of cars in the 60s and 70s from the US, those were cars that the US railroads were getting rid of as they dumped services.

-Finally, let's not forget the basket case that the Mexican government's finances were at the time (hint: Peso crisis). Even if maintaining service had been a priority, it's likely that they just didn't have the cash on hand to fund the service.

To take another stab, I'm guessing that baseline passenger services were money-losers because prices were kept "politically low" but that there was room to hike prices and try to fix that. However, faced with a choice between trying to make an alien operation work with 30-40 year old equipment and having to try and take a stab at setting prices in a market they lacked experience in (and catching hell later if things went wrong) or just throwing up their hands...I hate to admit it, but in KCS's shoes I would have done the same thing. Trying to make it work just wasn't worth the risk and hassle compared to running a straight freight operation.

What is also plausible is that the buyers had service dropped so they could "start fresh" if they _did_ want to run a passenger service...and then took one look and said "nope" per above. You don't even need bad faith for that to happen...I could see them asking for that in good faith, again to avoid bad PR and being stuck with a money-losing operation. And finally, if one of the multiple buyers pulled out of passenger operations, it's believable that the blow to the system that would have struck would have made the rest non-viable.

Anyhow, this is almost all speculation...and I would be interested in hearing the "real story". There's someone I know who might know more, so I'll sound them out if I get the chance.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 27, 2011)

I dont know of any books or articles on this subject, but having traveled and lived in Mexico for many years, have some ideas to offer in addition to the above posts which are some of the reasons passenger Trains were "vanished" in Mexico.

Mexico went through a "privitization" whirlwind during the totally corrupt De La Madrid and Salinas Administrations! Most of the Government owned companies and industries were Sold off to Private Investors (mostly buddies of the PRI)and Companies, bringing in Billions of Dollars that weren't put into the treasury but were stolen by the Salinas Gang, the Most Corrupt Administration EVER in Mexico, and that's saying something in this country!  )

When the Railroads were sold off, as has been said to KCS and others, busses were subsituted as a means of Transportation for the masses. Fares on both busses and Trains had been subsidized heavily by the Government, as had most other Government owned and controlled businesses and companies.(also both Government owned Airlines went Bankrupt!) The buyers of these companies could not raise prices enough to make it profitable to operate many of these services, so they were dropped! With the Peso bassically becoming worthless, and the average wage about $4 a day, it was not possible to operate passenger Trains anymore! As was said, the Copper Canyon Train is still running, both a "local" for the Campesinos (poor rural folks)since there are not many roads in the rough mountainous country on this route, and a "First Class Tourist" Train that is very pricey compared to what it used to cost. (ie package deals for $1,000+ vs. fares of $25 in the old days and it has to be guarded by Armed Security Guards!  )

With Mexico currently in the grips of a Civil War, and totatly Ungovernable, the odds of us seeing passenger Trains in Mexico again are higher than your chance to win the Lottery! If there was any possible way to operate passenger Trains and make money in Mexico, the "Billionaire Amigos" that bought the other Governement owned Monopilies would have done it!


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## Anderson (Nov 27, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> I dont know of any books or articles on this subject, but having traveled and lived in Mexico for many years, have some ideas to offer in addition to the above posts which are some of the reasons passenger Trains were "vanished" in Mexico.
> 
> Mexico went through a "privitization" whirlwind during the totally corrupt De La Madrid and Salinas Administrations! Most of the Government owned companies and industries were Sold off to Private Investors (mostly buddies of the PRI)and Companies, bringing in Billions of Dollars that weren't put into the treasury but were stolen by the Salinas Gang, the Most Corrupt Administration EVER in Mexico, and that's saying something in this country!  )
> 
> ...


Jim,

I agree that anything happening would require at least some form of stability in Mexico as a prerequisite. With that said, from what I can tell, a round trip first class ticket on "El Chepe" runs somewhere in the $300-350 range. Part of that may be the peso's latest round of collapsing, but even at $1=10 pesos (about where things peaked for the peso in 2008), that would offer a $435.80 round trip fare (each way is $MX 2179 from end to end).

As to what you said up there...I didn't realize that the peso's collapse did that much damage to the railroad industry. I know it made a hash of anything imported, but I've always been a bit in the dark as to what that meant in practical terms (other than a nasty price spike as that worked its way through the economy).

Finally, is the government still subsidizing the bus network down there?


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 27, 2011)

In regards to the busses: as you probably know, the Delujo (Deluxe) busses being run are much better than the Busses we have here! AFAIK, there is no Direct subsidization of Privatly owned bus lines, but the "Chicken busses" (2nd and 3rd class) still have cheap fares so there may be some kind of tax advantage granted to the bus companies by the Governement to ensure that the rural folks have transportation??One of the changes that came during the privitization mania was that Beans, Tortillas and Cooking Oil, the base for all poor Mexicans diet, were no longer subsidized resulting in millions of Campesinos moving to the cities and coming here due to starvation! Prime fodder now for the Drug Cartels and the Gangsters running Mexico!

As to the Copper Canyon "Tourist Train", the reason I mentioned the $1,000 Package is that you still have to get to either Los Mochos or Chiuahua City to catch the train ,whether you fly or ride the bus(dubious @ best, Juarez is not place to be, neither is Tijuana or Nogales!)and spend at least two nights in hotelsd going and coming if you go on your own!

Ive been pretty much all over the world in some really dangerous places and situations, so dont scare easily,but I would NOT go anywhere in Mexico currently, its as dangerous as the Middle East or other crazy places!

As to the Peso,there are signs along the border On the American side. that say "No Acceptemos Pesos", the Casa de Cambios that are everywhere along the border, will take Pesos at a Poor Exchange rate, but basically the Dollar is King! Poor Mexico as an old Dictator said once upon a time, "So far from God and so close to the United States!"Dont look for any more Passenger trains in Mexico in our Lifetimes!


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## Anderson (Nov 27, 2011)

Jim,

That makes sense. I'll go ahead and say that if the buses _are_ nicer (and I'm not disputing their quality), then I can at least see some logic for the transition. Not that I like it (or that I like buses), but..yech.

As to the pesos...I'm surprised that there aren't more places that will accept them, just at a poor exchange rate (as you noted) like 15:1 or 16:1 (when the prevailing rate is around 14:1).

Of course, with that said, I'm willing to be slightly optimistic (and in a way, pessimistic at the same time): I can see it happening if oil prices get far enough out of control. If oil at a "real" (that is, inflation-controlled) $150-200 stuck for a year or two, there are a lot of things that I think we'd see begin to happen, even in the face of government obstruction.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 3, 2011)

My apology if this has already been covered.

There used to be a through sleeper delivered from the Texas Eagle to the Aztec Eagle. At times it ran from St Louis to Mexico City and at other times from Chicago to Mexico City.

This was one of routes I regret not taking while it existed.


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