# Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dorsch via [email protected] said:


> _Capitol Limited and lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers __to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer_
> 
> WASHINGTON Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited_ trains starting June 1.
> 
> Sleeping car customers will choose meals *delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes* or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:
> 
> 
> Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
> Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.
> These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination,* eliminating on-board preparation*. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a *complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit*. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
> Our plan is to provide new and fresh food choices in a contemporary way for these overnight trains, said Bob Dorsch, Vice President of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line. Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient.
> 
> Dorsch said this enhancement will continue to be refined and we look forward to hearing from our customers.
> 
> The _Capitol Limited_ (Trains 29 & 30) operates daily between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, via Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The _Lake Shore Limited_ (Trains 48 & 49) typically operates daily between Chicago and New York, with a section to and from Boston (Trains 448 & 449).


Link: https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/

_Admin note:_

_The now closed topic "Chefs being removed off the Capitol Limited" can be found__ here_.


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## seat38a

Well it sounds like the Empire Builder Portland style box meal but with more enhancements.


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## Chey

That works great for me - the meals were always too big and this sounds lighter. It may not work so well for others Complimentary serving of beer, wine or mixed drink? What's not to love there!

What's an amenity kit?


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## seat38a

Chey said:


> That works great for me - the meals were always too big and this sounds lighter. It may not work so well for others Complimentary serving of beer, wine or mixed drink? What's not to love there!
> 
> What's an amenity kit?


I'm guessing something airline business class like this:



 I'm guessing they could just grab a bunch of them from where the airlines get them and hand them out.


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## Mystic River Dragon

"Fresh choices," "flavor forward," all those stupid trendy phrases usually mean something has been downgraded and marketing is trying to make it sound upgraded.

So this change essentially means no chance to speak with any passengers outside of coach, even if you eat in the dedicated car instead of your roomette, plus a continental breakfast, which is of course not breakfast at all--it's just a snack.

The breakfast on the Portland part of the Builder was lovely, but it had some protein in in, even though it had to be cold--I think I had a ham and cheese sandwich--plus a lovely blueberry cake and some fruit salad.

I had planned to try the Cap. Ltd. when I went to Chicago next, but now I will just save up for the Cardinal, at least til they destroy that, too.


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## fixj

Well, I'm on the Cap to Chicago the last week in May and returning the first week in June, so I should see the end of current food service and the beginning of this new service. I'll let you know, but not expecting anything great out of this service cut.


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## Ryan

“Destroy” is a bit over the top, I think. We’re talking about a sub-18 hour trip that you’re asleep for the majority of.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Ryan said:


> “Destroy” is a bit over the top, I think. We’re talking about a sub-18 hour trip that you’re asleep for the majority of.


Fair enough, Ryan--I forgot how short that trip is and that it's mostly overnight. But I do love my eggs for breakfast! However, for anyone going all the way to Chicago, there are certainly plenty of good breakfast places there.

I think what annoyed me the most was that they are still charging the sleeper prices but cutting what you get, but pretending it's something better. Not even making it an "experiment" like they did with the Silver Star.


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## jebr

The only thing I'm not liking is the lack of any hot food options being offered. It'd be nice if there was an option for a hot entree at least for lunch and dinner, especially if they extend this systemwide.

Other than that, I'll easily take the tradeoff of unlimited soft drinks and a free nightcap over the diner car experience. The food was decent, but I'd always found it comparable to Denny's. If the dining car is still there (just unstaffed) I still have the option to enjoy it with other passengers, and it's possible that the entrees would be better quality than a diner-lite meal.


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## tommylicious

This is an unequivocal downgrade, mark my words.


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## Ryan

There is no way of saying that without seeing what the meals are like. Unlimited soda and (limited) free booze are an upgrade.


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## Palmetto

tommylicious said:


> This is an unequivocal downgrade, mark my words.



The new choices certainly seem to be, IMHO.


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## seat38a

jebr said:


> The only thing I'm not liking is the lack of any hot food options being offered. It'd be nice if there was an option for a hot entree at least for lunch and dinner, especially if they extend this systemwide.
> 
> Other than that, I'll easily take the tradeoff of unlimited soft drinks and a free nightcap over the diner car experience. The food was decent, but I'd always found it comparable to Denny's. If the dining car is still there (just unstaffed) I still have the option to enjoy it with other passengers, and it's possible that the entrees would be better quality than a diner-lite meal.


Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination


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## jebr

seat38a said:


> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination


Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.


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## LookingGlassTie

Well, as long as I wouldn't be relegated to eating carry-on snacks at my seat or in my room...........


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## seat38a

jebr said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.
Click to expand...

I firmly exercise my privilege as a sleeping car passenger and stop at BevMo before boarding


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## Mystic River Dragon

Ryan said:


> There is no way of saying that without seeing what the meals are like. Unlimited soda and (limited) free booze are an upgrade.


Soda and free booze are not an upgrade to those of us who don't drink soda or liquor. I want my eggs! (Although, to be fair, Amtrak's eggs don't compare with a real breakfast cooked in a real breakfast restaurant or--you knew this was coming--a south Jersey diner!



.)



seat38a said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I firmly exercise my privilege as a sleeping car passenger and stop at BevMo before boarding
Click to expand...

What is BevMo?


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## seat38a

tommylicious said:


> This is an unequivocal downgrade, mark my words.


Amtrak could have just as well gone the route of the Silver Star. I remember the crying and moaning when that happened. I would definitely prefer the boxed meal vs the microwaved TV dinner on a plastic plate.

Not sure who is going to provide the meals at the originating station but the PDX Empire Builder boxed meals are prepared and delivered by a local restaurant.


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## rrdude

Devil's Advocate said:


> Bob Dorsch via [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Capitol Limited and lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers __to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer_
> 
> WASHINGTON Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited_ trains starting June 1.
> 
> Sleeping car customers will choose meals *delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes* or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:
> 
> 
> Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
> Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.
> These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination,* eliminating on-board preparation*. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a *complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit*. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
> Our plan is to provide new and fresh food choices in a contemporary way for these overnight trains, said Bob Dorsch, Vice President of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line. Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient.
> 
> Dorsch said this enhancement will continue to be refined and we look forward to hearing from our customers.
> 
> The _Capitol Limited_ (Trains 29 & 30) operates daily between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, via Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The _Lake Shore Limited_ (Trains 48 & 49) typically operates daily between Chicago and New York, with a section to and from Boston (Trains 448 & 449).
> 
> 
> 
> Link: https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/
Click to expand...


It *could* be worse. I do like the Comp Drink, wonder what the "amenity kit" is? Soap, a towel, and rubber-biscuit? Again, on a train with NO MORE than three meal periods, this *might be tolerable. * Hey, you wanted some variety from the National Menu? Here ya go!


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## seat38a

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way of saying that without seeing what the meals are like. Unlimited soda and (limited) free booze are an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> Soda and free booze are not an upgrade to those of us who don't drink soda or liquor. I want my eggs! (Although, to be fair, Amtrak's eggs don't compare with a real breakfast cooked in a real breakfast restaurant or--you knew this was coming--a south Jersey diner!
> 
> 
> 
> .)
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I firmly exercise my privilege as a sleeping car passenger and stop at BevMo before boarding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is BevMo?
Click to expand...

Its a west coast thing. They specialize in wine/beer/alcohol. Think Liquor Store but big bright and the size of a supermarket.


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## Northeastern292

Very disappointed. I remember my first LD trip and having the French toast while crossing Indiana on the Capitol Limited. I hope this move backfires.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## crescent-zephyr

Definitely going the airline model here... This is way better than the Silver Star as their are some upgrades (the amenity kit, soft drinks and alcahol) along with the downgrade.


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## the_traveler

I see what they say for sleeper passengers,but what about coachpassengers?



Is the only choice for food items the cafe? That is what I read.


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## seat38a

If anything, this program will probably a variation of what they already do on the EB. I'll take this over any microwaved TV dinner on a plastic plate.

Boxed Meal Provided Out Of PDX









Fried Chicken Loaded In Whitefish MT (This one had to be paid for. Not included.)





Other traveler's pic


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## seat38a

the_traveler said:


> I see what they say for sleeper passengers,but what about coachpassengers?
> 
> 
> 
> Is the only choice for food items the cafe? That is what I read.


Well the post says "Private Lounge or Cafe." Not sure what that means. I could mean no coach passengers in the car or a dedicated lounge or just bad wording. I would hope it does not mean that they will be throwing all the coach passengers out of the lounge/cafe during meal hours.


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## CAQuail

While I am trying to reserve judgement until we actually see the meals, it most likely means that my trip on the Lake Shore Limited next week will be my last. A meal in the dinning car is one of the pleasures of traveling by overnight train. It was a good run while it lasted, 30 plus trips on the Lake Shore and Capitol.


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## snvboy

So.... where do all the new Viewliner diners wind up then?


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## rtabern

I love the corporate spin that Amtrak always does --- instead of the headline being "Dining Cars being Pulled"... it's "Fresh, New Contemporary Choices Coming Soon".

It's yet another Amtrak DOWNGRADE that we have seen time and time again with "America's Railroad" since around 2010 --- newspapers, wine tastings on the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder, trains with their own different menus, juice choices, Silver Star-vation, ready-to-heat meals on the City of New Orleans and Cardinal, Pacific Parlour Cars, giving private car owners a hard time, and on and on.

We haven't taken the train east very much in recent years, and certainly won't anymore.


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## rrdude

snvboy said:


> So.... where do all the new Viewliner diners wind up then?


Brightline!


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## amtrakpass

Looks like coach passengers will not be able to purchase these meals and will only have the current cafe menu available according to a response from Amtrak customer service posted on another forum. And it looks like they are all cold anyway! The idea that this is a short trip and doesn't need decent meal service is false in my opinion. When I have taken the train east from Chicago, I would be awake by 6 or 7 am which leaves a full 12 hours on the train until new york. Vice versa I always have a meal in the diner westbound out of new york. And the social factor shouldn't be overlooked. I have always found it a lot of fun to meet and share a meal with fellow travelers whether they are in coach or sleeper.


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## Steve4031

I’ll miss breakfast the most. All of these choices look and sound like they will taste like crap. I will skip both trains until there is a return to decent food.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Wow, just wow.


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## cpotisch

Cut it out Anderson! And to think I was hoping for improved meals on the LSL, with the delivery of the V-II diners. But now we've got the removal of dining cars, cold meals, and a much more limited selection. I can appreciate the free booze and unlimited soft drinks, but for me, that's just not worth it. I definitely am wondering what the options will be for coach pax (I'm not optimistic). Fortunately, the LSL and Cap aren't particularly long routes, but this kind of thing really strikes me as unacceptable for ANY overnight route.


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## chrsjrcj

It could be worse, but it shouldnt. This is disgusting. And what about the 25 new dining cars still rolling off the lot?


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## blueman271

seat38a said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way of saying that without seeing what the meals are like. Unlimited soda and (limited) free booze are an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> Soda and free booze are not an upgrade to those of us who don't drink soda or liquor. I want my eggs! (Although, to be fair, Amtrak's eggs don't compare with a real breakfast cooked in a real breakfast restaurant or--you knew this was coming--a south Jersey diner!
> 
> 
> 
> .)
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I firmly exercise my privilege as a sleeping car passenger and stop at BevMo before boarding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is BevMo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its a west coast thing. They specialize in wine/beer/alcohol. Think Liquor Store but big bright and the size of a supermarket.
Click to expand...

So it’s the same as a Total Wine.

Back on topic any chance they will roll this out on the Star?


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## KnightRail

New consists:

29/30 Capital Limited:

Diesels - P42s

Baggage - 61000 series

TransDorm - 39000 series

Sleepers - 32000 series

*Sleeper Lounge

*Sightseer Lounge - 33000 series

Coaches - 31000/34000 series

48/49 Lake Shore Limited:

Diesels - P42s/P32

Baggage(BOS) - 61000 series

Sleeper(BOS) - 62000 series

*Cafe/Business(BOS) - 48100 series

Coaches(BOS) - 25000 series

Coaches - 25000 series

*Sleeper Lounge - 68000 series [New CAF diner operating as a sleeper lounge, something that has been foreshadowed here for some time now]

Sleepers - 62000 series

Baggage - 61000 series

(*) staffed with one Lead Service Attendant(LSA)


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## JayPea

cpotisch said:


> Cut it out Anderson!


Be careful what you wish for!


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## crescent-zephyr

Wait.... So we are losing a "full service diner" but adding a "staffed sleeper lounge" ???

Honestly this may come out as a wash in my book. If done right maybe even a positive.


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## chrsjrcj

A sleeper lounge that serves limited cold meal options. Sounds like dead weight.

The press release is confusing because I read it as being delivered to the actual rooms.


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## crescent-zephyr

chrsjrcj said:


> A sleeper lounge that serves limited cold meal options. Sounds like dead weight .


Compared to a diner that serves limited hot meals but requires triple or quadruple the staff?


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## chrsjrcj

crescent-zephyr said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> A sleeper lounge that serves limited cold meal options. Sounds like dead weight .
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to a diner that serves limited hot meals but requires triple or quadruple the staff?
Click to expand...

The Cardinal serves hot meals with one person.


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## jis

The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the statute and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the statute. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.

And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations statutes, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.

But this post should probably move over to the Advocacy section rather than be here. I leave it to the Mods to decide.


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## keelhauled

chrsjrcj said:


> The press release is confusing because I read it as being delivered to the actual rooms.


That has been an option all along, albeit not well advertised. My impression has been that the communal dining experience is not really an attraction to either the crew or a growing percentage of passengers, so it makes sense that they would emphasize the availability of room service.


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## rrdude

chrsjrcj said:


> A sleeper lounge that serves limited cold meal options. Sounds like dead weight.
> 
> The press release is confusing because I read it as being delivered to the actual rooms.


Read it again, Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes – *or *eaten in a private café or lounge car – and entrees such 

So looks like they will retain the diner, or CCC, or one of the new CAF single level diners for Card/LSL/Silvers


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## OBS

amtrakpass said:


> Looks like coach passengers will not be able to purchase these meals and will only have the current cafe menu available according to a response from Amtrak customer service posted on another forum. And it looks like they are all cold anyway! The idea that this is a short trip and doesn't need decent meal service is false in my opinion. When I have taken the train east from Chicago, I would be awake by 6 or 7 am which leaves a full 12 hours on the train until new york. Vice versa I always have a meal in the diner westbound out of new york. And the social factor shouldn't be overlooked. I have always found it a lot of fun to meet and share a meal with fellow travelers whether they are in coach or sleeper.


According to the internal Atk memo, Coach passengers will be able to purchase these meals "based on availability".....


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## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> Wait.... So we are losing a "full service diner" but adding a "staffed sleeper lounge" ???
> 
> Honestly this may come out as a wash in my book. If done right maybe even a positive.


Yup, this actually gives me hope that the CS might, just might get a Parlor Car replacement. After my last two LD train trips, quite frankly the dinning car crew really did absolutely nothing to put me on the side of advocating for their continual existence.

I maybe way over reading into this but for all of the scorn everyone has laid on Anderson for being an airline guy and not knowing anything regarding the RR business. Some of the changes such as exclusive lounge, amenity kits, 1 free drink are things lifted right out of the airline books. Now if he turned those sleeper lounges into something like the Sky Club lounges with continental breakfast and snacks throughout the day, I'm all for the changes.


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## Anderson

Well, I'm now going to be packing an MRE if I end up on one of these trains, and heating it on the platform in Cumberland, and likely refusing breakfast. I would actually seriously suggest this as a reaction...

Of course, none of this excuses the fact that they can't even be arsed to offer the Acela meals out of NYP/WAS and kludge something similar out of Chicago. Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.

Hades take whomever designed this.


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## crescent-zephyr

Again.... This makes sense. The LSA can take the orders and ask where they would like to eat their meal. (Similar to how it was done on the starlight).

After they know how many of each meal has been ordered, they can offer the rest to coach passengers.

Really hard to see how this doesn't make tons of business sense and could easily improve the customer experience.


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## crescent-zephyr

Anderson said:


> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.


No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.


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## chrsjrcj

Less food choices than what are currently offered. I don't see that as improving the customer experience.


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## Big Iron

Anderson said:


> Well, I'm now going to be packing an MRE if I end up on one of these trains, and heating it on the platform in Cumberland, and likely refusing breakfast. I would actually seriously suggest this as a reaction...
> 
> Of course, none of this excuses the fact that they can't even be arsed to offer the Acela meals out of NYP/WAS and kludge something similar out of Chicago. Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.


You will have to wait to Pittsburgh to heat and eat, Cumberland is no longer a fresh air stop.

It may be time to revisit the microwave in roomette thread started by MeatPuppet some moons ago.


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## seat38a

chrsjrcj said:


> Less food choices than what are currently offered. I don't see that as improving the customer experience.


I can't remember the last time when the menu wasn't whittled down to only 1 or 2 choices in the dining car because they were out of everything.


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## Ryan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
Click to expand...

Don't confuse the issue with facts and logic. It's the end of the world as we know it.


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## tricia

For a train that arrives into DC at 1PM (IF it's on time), having no lunch and the only breakfast option a combo of bread, sugary yogurt, and fruit seems a bit stark, especially for early risers. I'd hope there'd at least be a breakfast sandwich option.

And I sure hope there'll be some way to get a cup of tea. As it is, there's no hot water in the sleepers, only coffee.


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## AmtrakBlue

snvboy said:


> So.... where do all the new Viewliner diners wind up then?


ThirdRail7 has already alluded to the possibility that the diners will be used for something like this.


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## chrsjrcj

The Dining car booths aren't exactly the most comfortable, so unless they plan on replacing it with seats similar to the PPC or in the Sightseer Lounge Cars, I really don't understand how this is a smart use of equipment. It also looks quite silly to serve cold meals when the Viewliner Dining cars have a grill and kitchen that takes up 1/2 the space of the car!

I haven't seen any mention on what they'll use on the Capital Limited. Maybe the CCC? I have no experience with the CCC, so I'll reserve judgement on that.

Now if they did this on the Palmetto (food cart style?) for business class passengers, I would be all for it. Maybe the Carolinian too (not sure how it works with the state supported trains).


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## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So.... where do all the new Viewliner diners wind up then?
> 
> 
> 
> ThirdRail7 has already alluded to the possibility that the diners will be used for something like this.
Click to expand...

Yeah. private Lounge for Sleeper passengers to hang out in and have food with friends.








chrsjrcj said:


> Now if they did this on the Palmetto (food cart style?) for business class passengers, I would be all for it. Maybe the Carolinian too (not sure how it works with the state supported trains).


They won't, unless it reduces the net cost of operation. Come hell or high water they are out to reduce F&B losses.

Actually North Carolina could potentially make it happen on the Carolinian. All that they have to do is write a check for the equipment lease and operating cost.


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## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
Click to expand...

A starting problem is that, particularly in cold weather, I can easily see preferring mediocre hot food to excellent cold food.



Ryan said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't confuse the issue with facts and logic. It's the end of the world as we know it.
Click to expand...

Sarcasm aside, we're getting godsdamned close to that point as far as I'm concerned (particularly given the "as we know it" part).


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## Dakota 400

This news is disappointing to me. A step forward? Definitely not in my opinion. One complimentary alcoholic drink does not substitute for the loss of hot meals, chef prepared or microwaved. An amenity kit, as I have experienced on Delta flights, is totally not needed by a traveler who has thought to pack toothpaste, toothbrush, a comb, etc. It has minimal value and adds little to the travel experience.

If the new Viewliner diners are able to produce hot meals, and I assume they would be so designed, then I think it is a waste of money to have had them built to such a configuration and not use them for such service. Poor advance planning by Amtrak? Maybe not. Due to the very poor ability of our recent Congresses to pass budget and appropriation bills on time,  all Federal agencies, such as our military, have had to work without any clear understanding of what their appropriations will be.

If Mr. Anderson is insisting that he is going to follow whatever language is in the statute, as he should do, then it is the fault of the current Congress that has led us to this situation.

I am pleased to read that efforts are underway with some Congressmen to get this statute modified.


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## Rheavon

I'm definitely disappointed. I have a CL WAS-CHI coming up this late summer. I already dropped them a line. I don't drink soft drinks or alcohol, so that doesn't do anything for me. If the amenity kit is anything like the comfort kit, it seems pretty redundant as all the things in that kit are more or less provided in some capacity to sleeping car passengers already. Even then, I'm afraid that they'll run out of the kits regularly.

I'm going to be watching what comes out of this closely starting in June. I paid for my trip back in September expecting the full experience, so understandably I'm a bit ticked off.


----------



## Rail Freak

Ryan said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't confuse the issue with facts and logic. It's the end of the world as we know it.
Click to expand...

AMEN!!!


----------



## spinnaker

This really stinks. None of those options for dinner look like dinner to me. I was looking for my steak and shrimp for dinner this summer.





Breakfast really stinks. You get a better choice at a number of cheaper motels. Luckily the CL pulls into Pittsburgh before breakfast is served.

I'd rather have a burger for dinner. Something hot. Does this mean that burgers from the snack car are gone now too?

Oh well I started using the train recently because I sense its demise. This is just the beginning to the end.


----------



## keelhauled

crescent-zephyr said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I have had very good meals in the dining car, but I have also had meals that, while claiming to be the chicken entree or the pasta entree or whatever, would have been better described as the salt entree. In that light, the NEC cafe menu, which has a lot of premade cold salads and sandwiches and sounds the most similar to this, would have been far more enjoyable. As with most things, it depends on the execution.


----------



## Anderson

Dakota 400 said:


> This news is disappointing to me. A step forward? Definitely not in my opinion. One complimentary alcoholic drink does not substitute for the loss of hot meals, chef prepared or microwaved. An amenity kit, as I have experienced on Delta flights, is totally not needed by a traveler who has thought to pack toothpaste, toothbrush, a comb, etc. It has minimal value and adds little to the travel experience.
> 
> If the new Viewliner diners are able to produce hot meals, and I assume they would be so designed, then I think it is a waste of money to have had them built to such a configuration and not use them for such service. Poor advance planning by Amtrak? Maybe not. Due to the very poor ability of our recent Congresses to pass budget and appropriation bills on time,  all Federal agencies, such as our military, have had to work without any clear understanding of what their appropriations will be.
> 
> If Mr. Anderson is insisting that he is going to follow whatever language is in the statute, as he should do, then it is the fault of the current Congress that has led us to this situation.
> 
> I am pleased to read that efforts are underway with some Congressmen to get this statute modified.


The issue is that Amtrak just got a metric shitload of money from Congress in the Omnibus, and I cannot help but wonder if they (and others) might be in a position to seek damages if the administration tries to "sit on" the money in violation of the relevant legislation (the name escapes me, but in the 1970s there was a curb placed on impoundment).


----------



## Anderson

keelhauled said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does it excuse the fact that I can get better out of Delta on a three-hour flight on a regular basis.
> 
> Hades take whomever designed this.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has tried the food yet. It has the potential to be quite good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. I have had very good meals in the dining car, but I have also had meals that, while claiming to be the chicken entree or the pasta entree or whatever, would have been better described as the salt entree. In that light, the NEC cafe menu, which has a lot of premade cold salads and sandwiches and sounds the most similar to this, would have been far more enjoyable. As with most things, it depends on the execution.
Click to expand...

Well, and though the breakfast offering leaves _much _to be desired on the Regionals, at least there you can get a "proper" hot sandwich. The sandwich options listed seem to be designed without even microwaving as an option.


----------



## bretton88

I think this is an upgrade. We complain that Amtrak is ignoring the sleepers (their first class passengers), but they have the limiting factor of federal law requiring them to eliminate F&B losses. So Amtrak is getting creative, repurpose the diner as a private lounge, an amenity kit, and unlimited beverages (technically something that wasn't available before), all upgrades. Amtrak food wasn't particularly great before on the diner lite trains, so I doubt the good will actually be worse and they will cost Amtrak a lot less money to serve. The diners will still be on the train, so I suspect hot meals of some form will come back down the line.


----------



## rrdude

chrsjrcj said:


> Less food choices than what are currently offered. I don't see that as improving the customer experience.


Not necessarily, but *probably*. The notice simply states that those listed are _some of_ what may be offered:

and entrees* such as:*


Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.


----------



## caravanman

I love the idea that there is going to be fresh food available!

Oh, wait a minute... fresh choices does not mean a choice of fresh food, it means "different choices".

How refreshing!

How will this work in the real world? If meals can be prepared before the train leaves, and folk don't want the options that are left, won't that result in a lot of food going to waste, (or very well fed staff?).

Ed.


----------



## rrdude

spinnaker said:


> This really stinks. None of those options for dinner look like dinner to me. I was looking for my steak and shrimp for dinner this summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breakfast really stinks. You get a better choice at a number of cheaper motels. Luckily the CL pulls into Pittsburgh before breakfast is served.
> 
> I'd rather have a burger for dinner. Something hot. Does this mean that burgers from the snack car are gone now too?
> 
> Oh well I started using the train recently because I sense its demise. This is just the beginning to the end.


Said nothing about the AmCafe menu, so your hockey pucks, I mean "burgers", are likely safe.


----------



## spinnaker

rrdude said:


> spinnaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> This really stinks. None of those options for dinner look like dinner to me. I was looking for my steak and shrimp for dinner this summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breakfast really stinks. You get a better choice at a number of cheaper motels. Luckily the CL pulls into Pittsburgh before breakfast is served.
> 
> I'd rather have a burger for dinner. Something hot. Does this mean that burgers from the snack car are gone now too?
> 
> Oh well I started using the train recently because I sense its demise. This is just the beginning to the end.
> 
> 
> 
> Said nothing about the AmCafe menu, so your hockey pucks, I mean "burgers", are likely safe.
Click to expand...


Hey don't dis my hockey pucks.



They are pretty darn tasty. I would rather have a hot hockey puck than a cold choice from what I am seeing. The turkey club does not look too bad but I bet the bread won't be toasted. A turkey club has to have warm toasted bread.


----------



## spinnaker

caravanman said:


> I love the idea that there is going to be fresh food available!
> 
> Oh, wait a minute... fresh choices does not mean a choice of fresh food, it means "different choices".
> 
> How refreshing!
> 
> How will this work in the real world? If meals can be prepared before the train leaves, and folk don't want the options that are left, won't that result in a lot of food going to waste, (or very well fed staff?).
> 
> Ed.



Easy. Just hold the left overs over for the next train.


----------



## cpotisch

It is possible to serve decent cold meals, but it's difficult. Amtrak hasn't served particularly amazing food in a long time, but this strikes me as just a huge downgrade. We are now at the point that the freaking Cardinal has the best meal service of any Chicago-East train.

And yes, unlimited soft drinks will be nice, but I don't want to drink soda all day, anyway. I really wouldn't be surprised at all if we start seeing dining cars removed from the western trains in the next couple years.

And now I wait for a few angry replies that disagree with everything I just said...


----------



## seat38a

cpotisch said:


> It is possible to serve decent cold meals, but it's difficult. Amtrak hasn't served particularly amazing food in a long time, but this strikes me as just a huge downgrade. We are now at the point that the freaking Cardinal has the best meal service of any Chicago-East train.
> 
> And yes, unlimited soft drinks will be nice, but I don't want to drink soda all day, anyway. I really wouldn't be surprised at all if we start seeing dining cars removed from the western trains in the next couple years.
> 
> And now I wait for a few angry replies that disagree with everything I just said...


The dining cars won't be removed from the western trains. They will be turned into the sleeper lounge


----------



## rrdude

Just saw this on FB, and I do not know the source, so if something thinks it's "Fake News" feel free to remove. But it goes with this topic, supposedly it's an internal communications FAQ page regarding this topic.

*Program Overview:*
Amtrak will offer contemporary, fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers onboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains, starting June 1. On-board meal preparation will be replaced with a small variety of quality, fresh and ready-to-serve boxed meals. The service model for both routes will include an onboard food & beverage staff of two (2) LSAs using two (2) food service cars, one (1) LSA in each car.

In the initial phase of the presentation, which is subject to refinement as we move forward, sleeping car customers can continue to be served in their Bedrooms or Roomettes or use a private area aboard these trains when they choose from the following entrees, as examples:
• Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, Turkey club
• Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate

This change will contribute to improved financial performance and more contemporary service delivery on these overnight routes between the East Coast and Chicago at an estimated annual savings of $3.4M across both routes, some of which will be reinvested in the product.

*Program Details:*

During the summer on the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited,
• The Capitol Limited will operate with 2 coach cars, 1 baggage coach, 2 sleepers, 1 sleeper lounge, 1 sightseer café/lounge (Superliner I or II), 1 transition dorm, & 1 baggage car.

• The Lake Shore Limited will operate with 6 coaches, 2 baggage cars, 3 sleepers, 1 sleeper lounge (new CAF car) and 1 café/lounge car (Amfleet I split club). The café/lounge includes 18 business class seats and the standard Amfleet Café module and 24 booth seats.

• After boarding, sleeper attendants will ask passengers to select a preferred time for in room dining. Reservations will continue to be available in frequent intervals consistent with today’s standards

• Sleeper car passengers who do not wish to dine in their room will have the option to dine at available seating in the sleeper lounge. Sleeper passengers will have exclusive access to tables in sleeper lounge. Seating will be on a first come basis and there will *be no at-table dining service*.

• Sleeper and business class customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, 1 complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit.

• Meal service continues to be included as part of the sleeping car accommodation charge.

• These meals may be available for purchase by business and coach customers on a limited basis.

• The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers through the café/lounge.

Breakout of service by class is below.

*Sleeper Class​*
• Food: Fresh ready-to-serve and pre-packaged meals
• Beverages: 1 Alcoholic beverage and unlimited soft beverage
• Other amenities: 1 Complimentary amenity kit

*Business Class* (Lake Shore Limited)
• Food: A la carte purchases from Café/Lounge menu
• Beverages: 1 Alcoholic beverage and unlimited soft beverage
• Other amenities: 1 Complimentary amenity kit

*Coach Class*
• Food: A la carte purchases from Café/Lounge menu
• Beverages: A la carte purchases from Café/Lounge menu

Note: Pre-packaged meals may be available for purchase by business and coach customers on a* limited basis.*

*Q:​*What is the time frame of the program?
The first phase of the program will begin June 1.
*Q:* ​Will meal service hours remain the same?
​Yes, meal service will continue to be provided during normal hours.

Meal Service & Reservation Hours
*Breakfast * 6:30 am – 10 am
*Lunch * 11:30 am – 3 pm
*Dinner * 5 pm – 9:30 pm
​
• The attendant in the Sleeping Car Lounge will be on duty from 6:30 am to 10pm with the exception of allotted breaks.
• The Sleeping car Lounge will be available for passenger use for the duration of the journey.

*Q:* ​What are the anticipated benefits of the program?
The revamped meal offerings will be a more sustainable approach for F&B meal items producing less waste and providing a more contemporary food service model and product (with in room service) for our premium passengers. In future phases, our customers will be able to pre-order/pre-select meal options prior to departure.

The anticipated cost savings are an annualized $3 million reduction in operating costs on these two routes. Some of which, will be reinvested in the product.

*Q:* ​If passengers currently holding reservations on the Capitol Limited or Lake Shore Limited wish to postpone or cancel, will additional fees be imposed?
Passengers wishing to modify or cancel existing reservations will be subject to standard
Amtrak cancellation or change fees.
*Q:* ​Are fares being changed on these trains to account for the lower food service costs?
Ticket prices / fare structure will remain the same.
*Q:* ​If a passenger chooses to receive in room service but then s/he decides later s/he needs an additional item, will s/he need to walk all the way to the sleeper lounge for service?
Sleeper attendants continue to be on call to support customer requests (within reason, of course!) With safety as our first priority, our objective is to ensure customer onboard experience is enjoyable and worth repeating.
Each ready-to-serve meal comes completely packaged with necessary condiments, napkins and cutlery. If a customer finds something missing from their package, needs another beverage or needs assistance moving from their bedroom or roomette to another car on the train – the sleeper car attendant or other employees can provide assistance.
*Q:* ​Have the impacted employees been notified?
Crew base management has been notified and will be reviewing the changes with the crews as we roll out the program. Communications will be ongoing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Bolding, *underlining, and_ italics_ by me.


----------



## jis

You know? If they include food items that one sees served in airline business class and first class, this may not be so horrible for Sleeper folks. Certainly will never be as good as with a full kitchen etc. etc. Unfortunately, for now they seem to be limiting it to non-hot food. I wonder if one could ask for a Burger or Pizza from the Cafe instead. I know I know.... I am a low life.





All in all it is not going to be good for Coach passengers if only very few of the meals are available for sale.


----------



## Lonestar648

This change of food service eliminates the Chef and the Server. Still have someone in the Sleeper Lounge (LSA). On the passenger side, there is no longer any tipping discussion for meals, no tips are necessary. Cost savings for passengers. Eliminating two employees per train ends up saving Amtrak a lot of wages and benefit costs.

I think it appears that the traditional Dining Car will eventually be a thing of the past in the US. Anderson just has to figure out how to handle the 5 or 6 meal LD trains in the west. Adding the complementary drink is just an attempt to justify not lowering Sleeper rates.

It is time to make those last trips with remnants of the Dining Car service.


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## amtrakpass

why such prejudice against coach passengers? No or limited access to decent food and no access to the lounge. And no reduction in fares for a lower quality coach product.


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## Ryan

They still have access to the lounge car.


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## Lonestar648

Coach hasn't changed they still have access to the Cafe?Lounge or SSL and pay for the Sleeper meals if available. They have never had access to the Sleeper lounge or the sleepers.


----------



## Blackwolf

amtrakpass said:


> why such prejudice against coach passengers? No or limited access to decent food and no access to the lounge. And no reduction in fares for a lower quality coach product.


I would not call it prejudice; call it service class instead.

Do Coach passengers get to select from unused/uneaten First Class meals on an airliner? Nope. They get a choice instead (airline dependent) of a few prepackaged snack boxes, sandwiches or wraps. First Class passengers also get to select from that menu if they so choose, in addition to the normal First Class meals.

In that light, the Amtrak snack car is still better than an airliner. You have a larger selection, and hot items like hamburgers and pizza. I would wager that the snack car selection will get an overhaul in the near future to better match the change in overall food availability on LD trains.

Additionally, if one wants the meals, you just need to shell out more for the ticket and get Sleeper. And hey, you'll get to enjoy the new Viewliner Diners*Lounges* if you do!


----------



## xyzzy

It could have been worse, and I suspect we will see worse after 2 to 4 years of the new service.


----------



## Lonestar648

I agree. Once Management sees that passengers accept what ever is put before them, they know they can degrade service, but do it in steps so it is a gradual and hopefully minimize the lose of passengers. Maybe in the next decade we will be reminiscing about the days when LD trains had food service, or even about LD trains that used to be.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?

If the issue really is labor costs, then Amtrak is missing out on additional revenue by not offering these "meals" to coach passengers.


----------



## seat38a

For those of you who have traveled on the CONO. Would you prefer the current dining setup or this new system being rolled out? I have a feeling that the next place this would roll out would be the North - South trains. I'm thinking if Amtrak uses local vendors to supply the boxed meals, we may see more of the regional variety to the meals that so many of us have complained about missing ever since all of the dining car menu's were standardized.


----------



## Lonestar648

I think Amtrak is rationalizing that each meal prepared in the Dining car lost money. They are also trying to minimize tossed food with a limited number of prepared meals.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?


Coach passengers are currently accommodated in the Diner only after all Sleeper passengers are served. They will be sold meals that remain after all Sleeper passengers are served. The question is what number of meals will be loaded beyond what is needed to serve Sleeper passengers. Other than that, the situation will be exactly like what it is now.


----------



## seat38a

chrsjrcj said:


> Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?
> 
> If the issue really is labor costs, then Amtrak is missing out on additional revenue by not offering these "meals" to coach passengers.


What guarantee is there that Coach Passengers other than you and your family will pay for the meals? If they boarded 100 meals for coach and only 20 buys it, 80 goes into the trash. It works for sleeper because food is included in the ticket. Unless Amtrak starts selling bundled meal coach tickets, I believe Amtrak will continue to give coach passengers the shaft when it comes to dining. Even with the dining car, this is already to case on busy trains. Coach passengers will be turned away. Seen it announced on the Coast Starlight and the SWC.


----------



## seat38a

jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?
> 
> 
> 
> Coach passengers are currently accommodated in the Diner only after all Sleeper passengers are served. They will be sold meals that remain after all Sleeper passengers are served. The question is what number of meals will be loaded beyond what is needed to serve Sleeper passengers. Other than that, the situation will be exactly like what it is now.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it.


----------



## bretton88

That 3 million in reduced costs is not insignificant when you're under a federal mandate to reduce F&B costs. I feel like Amtrak is being creative here to try and meet both (close to mutually exclusive) goals: upgrading the sleeper product, while meeting that federal requirement. I do believe hot meals will come back (the diner cars are still on the train), they're just in the "trying to figure out how this works" phase. I will reserve full judgement until we see what this really looks like, but I'm cautiously optimistic about it. This is a much better plan than the Silver Starvation, which I feel like is the alternative we could have gotten.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Okay, I don't disagree that the current system doesn't work. And I have no information as to what percentage of food Amtrak throws out as waste. Most of my dining experiences have been on the Silvers, and there was only one trip where I was offered a limited menu and that was because #97 was delayed enough that they offered a limited diner seating for sleeping car passengers. The times that I've taken coach, reservations were offered to coach passengers (after the attendant made his round through the sleeping cars) or, more recently, lunch was first come first served with no reservation and no prejudice toward coach passengers over sleeping car passengers. Most of my travels on the Meteor have been in coach from WPB to north Florida. Not once have I been denied a seating for lunch (never made it to the dinner).

As others have suggested, picking a meal when you make your reservation might be a possibility. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of picking what I want for diner 6 months in advance. Deciding day of is challenging enough.





Also, it is my understanding that the transfer doesn't occur until the sleeping car passenger has a meal? In that case, it really is no different than coach.


----------



## jebr

Blackwolf said:


> Do Coach passengers get to select from unused/uneaten First Class meals on an airliner? Nope. They get a choice instead (airline dependent) of a few prepackaged snack boxes, sandwiches or wraps. First Class passengers also get to select from that menu if they so choose, in addition to the normal First Class meals.


Some airlines will actually sell the unsold First Class meals on an airline (I know Air Canada has offered this at least in the past; they may still do so.) That being said, I don't think they load extra specifically for coach passengers but may load a bit more of each entree so as to help ensure full selection for all first class passengers knowing the extras can be sold to coach passengers.

That said, I'd like to see them offer the option to get items off the cafe car menu in lieu of a particular meal if that's what you'd rather have. I certainly hope that they expand it to have hot entrees as well, but I think there may always be a desire for specific passengers to want something a bit more familiar, and the cafe car tends to have that (even if it is more downmarket than the diner or the test sleeper car entrees.)

I'd also be curious to see if they will serve lunch starting at 11:30 for the eastbound Capitol Limited. If so, that would be a huge plus for passengers as they could be confident that they'd have something to eat for lunch coming into Washington, DC. Of course, with the minimal offerings (and the lack of need to get up particularly early to get a breakfast seating) I may wind up deciding to take the Pennsylvanian westbound from New York with the changes as well instead of the Capitol Limited.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

seat38a said:


> For those of you who have traveled on the CONO. Would you prefer the current dining setup or this new system being rolled out?


The diner setup and food quality on the city of New Orleans was very bad (and when I rode I had an amazingly excellent server).

The box lunch and box breakfast on the empire builder were, in my personal experience, more enjoyable than the meals on the city of New Orleans.

I actually think having a sleeper lounge is an excellent amenity. Im assuming the LSA in the sleeper lounge will sell drinks as well (otherwise you wouldn't need an LSA). If all they have to do is make drinks lets get an espresso machine in there and have a proper coffee bar. That would be a huge win for Amtrak $$$, I'll pay anything for some espresso in the morning.


----------



## jebr

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible this is a creative way to get F&B at "break-even" on paper. If the sleeper car lounge is only for sleeper passengers and the attendant is only serving sleeper car passengers, Amtrak may be able to justify the costs of that employee and the cost to run the sleeper lounge as a cost allocated to the sleeper cars/sleeping car service. That means that Amtrak only has to account for the cost of the food itself when doing the allocations from the sleeper car account to the F&B account. I'd guess that the meal will be priced in such a way that it'll be able to break-even or be slightly profitable when it's all said and done (ingredients + prep + cost to load it onto the train.) That, plus the revenue from the cafe car, would likely be enough to break even on paper with the F&B account.


----------



## caravanman

As long as us coach passengers can sleep in the lounge overnight, I don't mind bringing my own healthier meals to eat. Enjoy your "first class" sleeper meals!





Ed.


----------



## Lonestar648

I think the SSL is still on the CL, they will just run the Diner as the Sleeper Lounge. On the LSL the VII Diner will be the Sleeper Lounge. The Cafe/Lounge will remain.


----------



## Railroad Bill

We will miss the traditional meals and the interesting conversations at the dinner table. But with all things lately, change is inevitable and we will learn to adjust. I suspect the change in prices, points, and service have affected more traditional Amtrak travelers and their choice to ride or not.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> As others have suggested, picking a meal when you make your reservation might be a possibility. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of picking what I want for diner 6 months in advance. Deciding day of is challenging enough.


The only airline where I have actually reserved meal selection before boarding (other than the run of the mill Kosher/Vegan/Seafood/Low Cholesterol etc.) is Singapore Airlines. They just required that the meal selection be done at least 24 hours before departure. It is an option. If you did not reserve an item they will serve you something from whatever is available in their standard menu on board. The list of meal that can be selected is way larger than the standard menu, which had about 6 items. The selection menus had about 20 items, with even some rather exotic route specific cuisine.

For example on a flight from Singapore to Kolkata I was able to select a typical Bengali Meal of Bengali Fish ground Mustard Curry, Daal and Rice, with a typical Bengali Dessert, which of course would not ever be on the standard menu. I was suitably impressed and the food was excellent. On the return flight I went for the Rogan Josh and Naan.

I am sure Amtrak has no desire to meet the standards of Singapore Airlines Business/First Class meals, but at least if their meal reservation procedure is adopted, that would be nice in and of itself.


----------



## niemi24s

At a rate, so far, of about one post every 5 minutes may be a new record - or at least close to it.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> As others have suggested, picking a meal when you make your reservation might be a possibility. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of picking what I want for diner 6 months in advance. Deciding day of is challenging enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only airline where I have actually reserved meal selection before boarding (other than the run of the mill Kosher/Vegan/Seafood/Low Cholesterol etc.) is Singapore Airlines. They just required that the meal selection be done at least 24 hours before departure. It is an option. If you did not reserve an item they will serve you something from whatever is available in their standard menu on board. The list of meal that can be selected is way larger than the standard menu, which had about 6 items. The selection menus had about 20 items, with even some rather exotic route specific cuisine.
> 
> For example on a flight from Singapore to Kolkata I was able to select a typical Bengali Meal of Bengali Fish ground Mustard Curry, Daal and Rice, with a typical Bengali Dessert, which of course would not ever be on the standard menu. I was suitably impressed and the food was excellent. On the return flight I went for the Rogan Josh and Naan.
> 
> I am sure Amtrak has no desire to meet the standards of Singapore Airlines Business/First Class meals, but at least if their meal reservation procedure is adopted, that would be nice in and of itself.
Click to expand...

I am sure they will probably give you the option of reserving special meals (vegetarian, gluten free, etc) in advance. I also suspect that Amtrak will broaden the meal choices as they figure out the kinks in the program, as it's easier to start small then add on to it.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Soooooo, are there any more questions about the chef being removed from the CL?





That being said, this boils down to a few things. I mentioned it in the past and that is adaptation. People have already adapted, saying it could be worse. Indeed because the Star is getting NOTHING! When Amtrak declares this experiment a success, I'm sure you'll see other trains rolling out the same type of operation, particularly trains that only travel one overnight period.

That being said, I do note one other thing which is extremely subjective. The Star got away with their experiment because they lowered the price of the accommodation. I haven't head anything about them lowering the costs of the sleepers on these trains and that impacts something the is controlled individually:

The perception of "value."

That is something I'm not sure this regime gets. There are plenty of options for Amtrak riders. Is this worth it? What is "the value" for your dollar? A cold meal? I made this statement before and it is worth clarifying:



Thirdrail7 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand them consolidating the 2 meals and even allowing Sleeper pax only one turn; you would have to be a real Chow Hound to take on Breakfast and then 2-3 hours later pile in Lunch, especially with all the great eating options in DC.
> 
> 
> 
> *This is what annoys me about all of these "experiments." If I'm paying for a sleeper that includes meals, I want the meals. ALL of them. I'll eat until I explode. First I want eggs and then I want a steak for lunch!! I paid for it.*
> 
> *FEEEEEEED ME, SEYMOUR!!!*
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but If I've fallen from bacon/ french toast/scrambled eggs to a cold, continental breakfast and from a steak grilled somewhere near my liking to a cold tenderloin or turkey sandwich, that hardly seems worth the extra costs.

Now, you'll say it beats riding coach but hell, for this I may as well just get on the damn plane. After all, the fees are closing in and the prices may be lower. One thing is certain, the plane will likely be quicker.

If the journey isn't far, I may as well get in my car and roll for it myself.

I almost prefer the Star's set up. At least they're honest and the "value" (or my perception of such) is there.

However, this is a Congressional mandate. It has been one for years. Until it changes, you have someone that is making a go of it instead of waiting it out or ignoring it. If ridership and revenue drops, they can use this to say the food is a loss leader. If ridership and revenue stays the same (or close), the savings may help in the eyes of Congress and it is money that can be turned into other things.

He is actually opening more positions in the company but with more emphasis on other departments.

Time will tell what each person thinks of this. I have the feeling that the initial uproar will end and people will adapt.

Besides, if ridership drops, the equipment will just move to another service. This may be the only support you'll need for your new, mini long distance consist.





Amtrak 2.0 plods on!


----------



## seat38a

Well since I've been a member on this forum, here is a list of things that we've generally complained about on here regarding sleeper amenities.


Lounge lizards are a problem sleeper passengers need a lounge of their own
The wine and cheese have been cut
The juices are getting cut
The amenity kits on the CS have been cut
The dining car is being cut
Parlor Car

Well Amtrak is giving back in one form or another at the cost of the dining car:


Sleeping car lounge. Exclusively for sleeping car passengers (The dining car)
Wine, Beer or cocktail (Expanded minus the cheese)
Unlimited soft drinks (An improvement vs just juice IMOP)
Return of amenity kits


----------



## Thirdrail7

seat38a said:


> Well since I've been a member on this forum, here is a list of things that we've generally complained about on here regarding sleeper amenities.
> 
> 
> Lounge lizards are a problem sleeper passengers need a lounge of their own
> The wine and cheese have been cut
> The juices are getting cut
> The amenity kits on the CS have been cut
> The dining car is being cut
> Parlor Car
> 
> Well Amtrak is giving back in one form or another at the cost of the dining car:
> 
> 
> Sleeping car lounge. Exclusively for sleeping car passengers (The dining car)
> Wine, Beer or cocktail (Expanded minus the cheese)
> Unlimited soft drinks (An improvement vs just juice IMOP)
> Return of amenity kits



Way to look at the bright side Seat38a. Some people will never be satisfied!






Besides, you still technically have a dining car! However, the stoves are turned off! This should also put an end to the "food is just reheated and isn't freshly cooked" debate. It isn't even going to be reheated anymore!!


----------



## seat38a

Thirdrail7 said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well since I've been a member on this forum, here is a list of things that we've generally complained about on here regarding sleeper amenities.
> 
> 
> Lounge lizards are a problem sleeper passengers need a lounge of their own
> The wine and cheese have been cut
> The juices are getting cut
> The amenity kits on the CS have been cut
> The dining car is being cut
> Parlor Car
> 
> Well Amtrak is giving back in one form or another at the cost of the dining car:
> 
> 
> Sleeping car lounge. Exclusively for sleeping car passengers (The dining car)
> Wine, Beer or cocktail (Expanded minus the cheese)
> Unlimited soft drinks (An improvement vs just juice IMOP)
> Return of amenity kits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Way to look at the bright side Seat38a. Some people will never be satisfied!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, you still technically have a dining car! However, the stoves are turned off! This should also put an end to the "food is just reheated and isn't freshly cooked" debate. It isn't even going to be reheated anymore!!
Click to expand...

And I should add that if this is expanded to the North-South trains, the return of the Parlor Car in a way


----------



## Dakota 400

Using the Dining Car as a Sleeping Car Lounge as a "Lounge"? How much of a comfortable "lounge" have you found sitting in a Dining Car seating "booth"?

This seating arrangement is surely not what i have experienced when trains had a dedicated Lounge Car. Even when PRR had a combo Section-Lounge Car on their overnight Columbus-Chicago Ohioan or Buckeye (if my memory is correct in what those trains were called).


----------



## Lonestar648

The CCC can easily be the Lounge Car for Sleeping Car passengers on the CL, CONO, and TE. The new VII diners will be converted to Lounges for the Sleeping Cars. This leaves the LD trains in the West which have much longer runs and will be more challenging and definitely the last to be converted.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Using the Dining Car as a Sleeping Car Lounge as a "Lounge"? How much of a comfortable "lounge" have you found sitting in a Dining Car seating "booth"?
> 
> This seating arrangement is surely not what i have experienced when trains had a dedicated Lounge Car. Even when PRR had a combo Section-Lounge Car on their overnight Columbus-Chicago Ohioan or Buckeye (if my memory is correct in what those trains were called).


Well about half of the upper level and all of the lower level SSL is diner is booth seating, 1/3 of the Parlour cars were booth seating, and all of the current cafe cars are booth seating.

As for back in the day, all of the historic lounges I've seen are either single chairs facing the center of the car, or table booth seating with the rare exception of single swivel chairs like the PPC had.


----------



## Ryan

Lonestar648 said:


> I think the SSL is still on the CL, they will just run the Diner as the Sleeper Lounge. On the LSL the VII Diner will be the Sleeper Lounge. The Cafe/Lounge will remain.


Yes. From way back on page 2...



KnightRail said:


> New consists:
> 
> 29/30 Capital Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> TransDorm - 39000 series
> 
> Sleepers - 32000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge
> 
> *Sightseer Lounge - 33000 series
> 
> Coaches - 31000/34000 series
> 
> 48/49 Lake Shore Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s/P32
> 
> Baggage(BOS) - 61000 series
> 
> Sleeper(BOS) - 62000 series
> 
> *Cafe/Business(BOS) - 48100 series
> 
> Coaches(BOS) - 25000 series
> 
> Coaches - 25000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge - 68000 series [New CAF diner operating as a sleeper lounge, something that has been foreshadowed here for some time now]
> 
> Sleepers - 62000 series
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> (*) staffed with one Lead Service Attendant(LSA)


----------



## Skyline

If Amtrak can convince the travelling public this is an "upgrade," how much longer before the trial runs of SP-style automat service premiere?


----------



## Gulfwind2

"The anticipated cost savings are an annualized $3 million reduction in operating costs on these two routes. Some of which, will be reinvested in the product."

Haven't we all heard some Mumbo-jumbo like this before?


----------



## cpotisch

Gulfwind2 said:


> "The anticipated cost savings are an annualized $3 million reduction in operating costs on these two routes. Some of which, will be reinvested in the product."
> 
> Haven't we all heard some Mumbo-jumbo like this before?


Indeed we have, and I hate it.


----------



## Gulfwind2

Thirdrail7 said:


> Soooooo, are there any more questions about the chef being removed from the CL?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That being said, this boils down to a few things. I mentioned it in the past and that is adaptation. People have already adapted, saying it could be worse. Indeed because the Star is getting NOTHING! When Amtrak declares this experiment a success, I'm sure you'll see other trains rolling out the same type of operation, particularly trains that only travel one overnight period.
> 
> That being said, I do note one other thing which is extremely subjective. The Star got away with their experiment because they lowered the price of the accommodation. I haven't head anything about them lowering the costs of the sleepers on these trains and that impacts something the is controlled individually:
> 
> The perception of "value."
> 
> That is something I'm not sure this regime gets. There are plenty of options for Amtrak riders. Is this worth it? What is "the value" for your dollar? A cold meal? I made this statement before and it is worth clarifying:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand them consolidating the 2 meals and even allowing Sleeper pax only one turn; you would have to be a real Chow Hound to take on Breakfast and then 2-3 hours later pile in Lunch, especially with all the great eating options in DC.
> 
> 
> 
> *This is what annoys me about all of these "experiments." If I'm paying for a sleeper that includes meals, I want the meals. ALL of them. I'll eat until I explode. First I want eggs and then I want a steak for lunch!! I paid for it.*
> 
> *FEEEEEEED ME, SEYMOUR!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry but If I've fallen from bacon/ french toast/scrambled eggs to a cold, continental breakfast and from a steak grilled somewhere near my liking to a cold tenderloin or turkey sandwich, that hardly seems worth the extra costs.
> 
> Now, you'll say it beats riding coach but hell, for this I may as well just get on the damn plane. After all, the fees are closing in and the prices may be lower. One thing is certain, the plane will likely be quicker.
> 
> If the journey isn't far, I may as well get in my car and roll for it myself.
> 
> I almost prefer the Star's set up. At least they're honest and the "value" (or my perception of such) is there.
> 
> However, this is a Congressional mandate. It has been one for years. Until it changes, you have someone that is making a go of it instead of waiting it out or ignoring it. If ridership and revenue drops, they can use this to say the food is a loss leader. If ridership and revenue stays the same (or close), the savings may help in the eyes of Congress and it is money that can be turned into other things.
> 
> He is actually opening more positions in the company but with more emphasis on other departments.
> 
> Time will tell what each person thinks of this. I have the feeling that the initial uproar will end and people will adapt.
> 
> Besides, if ridership drops, the equipment will just move to another service. This may be the only support you'll need for your new, mini long distance consist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak 2.0 plods on!
Click to expand...

God I can't put into words how much I identify with the sentiment in this comment.

Sleeping car passengers are generally not involuntary riders (i.e. the old Grandmaw taking the Builder to visit her doctor), and they are also people who have money to afford travel upgrades to the tune of up to thousands of dollars.

It seems no one in their right mind will pay through the nose to ride the sleepers on a diner-less train, whose sleeping car equipment is liable to be held together with duct tape, when a number of airlines offer a first class product which runs roughly the same cost as Amtrak sleeper fares on the eastern half of country & has superior service, superior food offerings, and the advantage of the speed of jet travel.


----------



## cpotisch

Here's the thing. Hot meals, juice, bottled water, etc. were what made me love take Amtrak long distance. Flying is much, much, faster. A car or bus is much, much cheaper. It was that Amtrak was just much, much nicer. But with all these cuts to service and amenities, it gets difficult to justify the train at all. At a certain point, you might as well take a bus, if that's the level of service you'd be getting anyway.


----------



## seat38a

But now they have 3 million for use towards repair of the rattles in the sleeper


----------



## cpotisch

I bet there are plenty of members on AU that would take reduced rattles over better meals any day of the week.


----------



## TiBike

If the new meals are anything like the pictures from Portland, Oregon early in this thread, sign me up. Those look like reasonably healthy meals, and you won't have to sit with a bunch of strangers to get one.


----------



## Seaboard92

Amtrak's spinsters aka the Marketing Department clearly need an award for being able to turn a clear downgrade of service (especially towards coach passengers) into an exciting, "fresh new development. That is an incredible level of spinning that even I haven't obtained yet. And I thought my degree helped me out a lot


----------



## seat38a

Seaboard92 said:


> Amtrak's spinsters aka the Marketing Department clearly need an award for being able to turn a clear downgrade of service (especially towards coach passengers) into an exciting, "fresh new development. That is an incredible level of spinning that even I haven't obtained yet. And I thought my degree helped me out a lot


How is it a downgrade for coach passengers? Say if the dining cars currently stocks enough food for sleeper passengers + 20-30% extra stock for coach passengers. What is the difference between that and stocking 20 - 30% more boxed meals? As mentioned in an earlier post, its common on trains like the CS where Coach passengers can't be seated during certain meals because the sleeping cars are fully booked.

You and some may think its a downgrade but others have clearly stated that they like it or will hold judgement until they can experience it. Its for sure were loosing something but Amtrak is giving us something else in return including keeping the dining car for exclusive use of sleeper passengers.


----------



## Lonestar648

The three million is money Amtrak doesn't have to ask for. The Sleepers generate a lot of revenue so Marketing had to find a way that would not sound negative to these riders.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> Amtrak's spinsters aka the Marketing Department clearly need an award for being able to turn a clear downgrade of service (especially towards coach passengers) into an exciting, "fresh new development. That is an incredible level of spinning that even I haven't obtained yet. And I thought my degree helped me out a lot


It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.

He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.


----------



## Seaboard92

Thirdrail7 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's spinsters aka the Marketing Department clearly need an award for being able to turn a clear downgrade of service (especially towards coach passengers) into an exciting, "fresh new development. That is an incredible level of spinning that even I haven't obtained yet. And I thought my degree helped me out a lot
> 
> 
> 
> It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.
> 
> He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree whole heartedly it works. Honestly it's pretty Ingenious. I'm not a fan of stuff like that but it works. Even though you can't spin removing the student discount to reach that market. Interesting times we live in. Hopefully something will change in the coming weeks on one of many fronts.


----------



## seat38a

*I was thinking about it and I forgot to add couple more. I'm sure I'm missing a ton.*

Well since I've been a member on this forum, here is a list of things that we've generally complained about on here regarding sleeper amenities.


Lounge lizards are a problem sleeper passengers need a lounge of their own
The wine and cheese have been cut
The juices are getting cut
The amenity kits on the CS have been cut
The dining car is being cut
Parlor Car
*Will SCA bring my meals to my room even if I'm not disabled. My SCA rolled their eyes at me when I asked for my meal in my room.*
*Will I be seated with strangers in the dining car*
*How much do I have to tip in the dining car*
*The coffee isn't all day anymore*
*I can't live with only 2 bottled water my SCA said they can't give me more than 2. My SCA gave me as many as I want.*
*In other countries blah blah blah. ViaRail blah blah blah*

Well Amtrak is giving back in one form or another at the cost of the dining car:


Sleeping car lounge. Exclusively for sleeping car passengers (The dining car)
Wine, Beer or cocktail (Expanded minus the cheese)
Unlimited soft drinks (An improvement vs just juice IMOP)
Return of amenity kits
Yes your SCA or LSA will bring your meal to you
NO you can pick whichever booth you want or eat in your room
NOTHING no more servers. Although tipping your LSA or SCA could conceivably get you extra beer/wine/cocktail *(NO GUARANTEES)*
No idea about all day coffee but I don't see why not if they are being generous with the drinks already.
Now you get unlimited free soft drinks which I'm assuming includes bottled water
We are talking about Amtrak Am = America


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seat38A,

We're having too much fun with this thread and probably hijacking it to boot.

So, let's continue!





This will help with the age old question/observation: Are Dining Cars Open During Non-Meal Hours?

Well, now it is......for sleeping car passengers! You can hang out all you want in a viewliner diner with great views, while the coach passengers use the Amslits!

Say THANK YOU, Mr. ANDERSON!!!


----------



## seat38a

After thinking about it, when I had the breakfast buffet in the PPC last December, the scrambled eggs were in a plastic bag and put in the chaffing dish. I'm guessing that Amtrak makes their scrambled eggs by cooking the bag of processed eggs in a water bath. With the dining car still in place, I think it would not be impossible for one LSA to prep a batch of scrambled eggs for the the sleeping car passengers. If you look closely, you can tell that its not griddle cooked scrambled eggs.

Or serve hardboiled eggs for protein during breakfast. At many hotels that offer free breakfast, its usually scrambled, hardboiled or none.

Who does the "cooking" on the CONO?






Bigger picture here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/39121703934/in/album-72157689661494002/

Just maybe setup something like this one chaffing dish setup for breakfast along with the breads and jams. many of the budget hotels/motels that offer free breakfast I'm pretty sure do not cook but just reheat.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The photo above is from a Hampton Inn. Nothing is cooked fresh at a hampton inn... just quickly heated and put out. And they manage to serve an entire hotel breakfast with only 1 person cooking and stocking usually. (That's a 3 or 4 story hotel.... some of the larger hotels in those brands will have an extra staff at the breakfast).

I think alot of options are probably on the table. Remember when "Simplified Dining" happened a few years ago and all the steaks and cooked to order food was taken off the menu? After some time, amtrak realized the 1 chef in the kitchen could still handle a few cooked to order items and steaks came back.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The amtrak eggs in your photo look like fresh scrambled eggs to me. The last time I rode in a single level diner you could see the fresh eggs and hear them being scrambled. I can't say for certain how they are cooked on other trains but you can usually tell powdered eggs from fresh eggs pretty easily. (The powdered eggs at a hampton inn are a great example! ha.)


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> The photo above is from a Hampton Inn. Nothing is cooked fresh at a hampton inn... just quickly heated and put out. And they manage to serve an entire hotel breakfast with only 1 person cooking and stocking usually. (That's a 3 or 4 story hotel.... some of the larger hotels in those brands will have an extra staff at the breakfast).
> 
> I think alot of options are probably on the table. Remember when "Simplified Dining" happened a few years ago and all the steaks and cooked to order food was taken off the menu? After some time, amtrak realized the 1 chef in the kitchen could still handle a few cooked to order items and steaks came back.


Oh wow what year was that?


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> The amtrak eggs in your photo look like fresh scrambled eggs to me. The last time I rode in a single level diner you could see the fresh eggs and hear them being scrambled. I can't say for certain how they are cooked on other trains but you can usually tell powdered eggs from fresh eggs pretty easily. (The powdered eggs at a hampton inn are a great example! ha.)


The eggs were still in the sous vide bag that they were cooked in. Not sure if they cracked fresh eggs and cooked it sous vide or if the eggs came ready to cook sous vide.

But I would not mind one of these either if they plopped it in front of me for breakfast. Had it on ViaRail Business Class last year between Toronto and Montreal. The main course was surprisingly good for airline style reheat. Now if they plopped that Acela style garbage at me, then I would be a bit annoyed.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That's better than Acela first class meals? I've never done the Acela first class.. I heard good things though?


----------



## chrsjrcj

My issue, and Im sure most people who dont like these cuts would agree, is that there are no hot meals. Amtrak couldve turned the dining car into a private sleeper lounge and forced coach passengers to eat from the amcafe only (not a good way to generate revenue, but anyway) while still at least serving some hot meals.


----------



## rrdude

seat38a said:


> After thinking about it, when I had the breakfast buffet in the PPC last December, the scrambled eggs were in a plastic bag and put in the chaffing dish. I'm guessing that Amtrak makes their scrambled eggs by cooking the bag of processed eggs in a water bath. With the dining car still in place, I think it would not be impossible for one LSA to prep a batch of scrambled eggs for the the sleeping car passengers. If you look closely, you can tell that its not griddle cooked scrambled eggs.
> 
> Or serve hardboiled eggs for protein during breakfast. At many hotels that offer free breakfast, its usually scrambled, hardboiled or none.
> 
> Who does the "cooking" on the CONO?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger picture here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/39121703934/in/album-72157689661494002/
> 
> Just maybe setup something like this one chaffing dish setup for breakfast along with the breads and jams. many of the budget hotels/motels that offer free breakfast I'm pretty sure do not cook but just reheat.


Amtrak actually did try something like this, on the Broadway, in late 70’s. They didn’t remove or replace dining car, but offered ‘cafeteria style’ food offerings in a lounge car. Was staffed by LSA and one assistant. EVERYthing was simply heated up, placed in steam table, put out for patrons to select. Problems I remember:

1) Pax had BIG trouble carrying food on cafeteria-style tray, back to lounge seating area.

2) Keeping lounge clean, it was a HUGE effort.

3) Next to impossible to work food line, AND offer table service for cocktails (tips) in lounge

4) A lot of wasted food.

5) Even though I made every attempt to make the presentation and appearance of the food as good as possible, it was still “food in a

chafeing dish....”

We basically “competed” with the dining car... An Amtrak VP at the time, (Bill Norman??) while relaxing in the lounge car, complimented me on my service, and highly recommended that I return to college, to finish my degree. I took his advice.


----------



## tricia

cpotisch said:


> I bet there are plenty of members on AU that would take reduced rattles over better meals any day of the week.


Perhaps the new amenity kit should include duct tape.


----------



## spinnaker

cpotisch said:


> Here's the thing. Hot meals, juice, bottled water, etc. were what made me love take Amtrak long distance. Flying is much, much, faster. A car or bus is much, much cheaper. It was that Amtrak was just much, much nicer. But with all these cuts to service and amenities, it gets difficult to justify the train at all. At a certain point, you might as well take a bus, if that's the level of service you'd be getting anyway.



Exactly my thoughts. This just might be the tipping point for some people. I also thought his was handled poorly sort of sprung on us. People already purchased their tickets for this year so it is likely too late for them. This decision should have either been made last year or have been made to be implemented next year.

Was anyone informed of this change by Amtrak? I know I wasn't and I have a roomette reservation this summer. Amtrak could have at least notified people so they can make other arrangements for dinner id they chose. With a 6:40PM departure east bound from CHI there are certainly opportunities for an early dinner in the city.


----------



## tommylicious

Farewell, Capitol Limited. Farewell, Lake Shore Limited. I'm not riding these trains anymore. Some cold, crappy meat for lunch and a stale roll for breakfast? Go to hell. I'm flying.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tommylicious said:


> Farewell, Capitol Limited. Farewell, Lake Shore Limited. I'm not riding these trains anymore.


Understandable, but once "the Genie is out of the bottle" it's impossible to put back, so perhaps it's time to ride other LD Routes before this virus spreads to all of them.
Book it Danno!


----------



## Ryan

This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.


----------



## Rheavon

spinnaker said:


> Was anyone informed of this change by Amtrak? I know I wasn't and I have a roomette reservation this summer. Amtrak could have at least notified people so they can make other arrangements for dinner id they chose. With a 6:40PM departure east bound from CHI there are certainly opportunities for an early dinner in the city.


Not me. I'm riding the CL July 31 and haven't received any word on the change.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Ryan said:


> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.


Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then youd never have to read any whining again.


----------



## spinnaker

Amtrak is missing an opportunity in a place like Union Station. Why not just partner with a couple local restaurants. Either bring in your ticket to one of the existing restaurants or better yet open a couple of restaurants (maybe they are already there I don't recall) inside the station. I would much rather have a nice hot piece of Chicago style pizza than a cold prepackaged sandwich.


----------



## Ryan

chrsjrcj said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then youd never have to read any whining again.
Click to expand...

Nope.

We literally have no idea what this food is like, and we have chicken little running around like the world is ending.

God forbid we wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement. The litany is things that turn out better than the torches and pitchforks crowd makes them out to be is nearly endless.


----------



## spinnaker

Ryan said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then youd never have to read any whining again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope.
> 
> We literally have no idea what this food is like, and we have chicken little running around like the world is ending.
> 
> God forbid we wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement. The litany is things that turn out better than the torches and pitchforks crowd makes them out to be is nearly endless.
Click to expand...

It is a cold pre-packaged meal. That is all we need to know. Yes a good pre-packaged meal is better than a lousy hot meal but I thought dinner on the CL was very good considering the challenges that come with preparing a meal on a train, in limited space for a large number of people.


----------



## cpotisch

Warm food is easier to do right than cold food. Amtrak meals don't have much going for them, and when you take heat out of the equation...

It definitely is possible that the new food is good. But I just can't say that a more limited menu only served cold is a good sign. I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I just don't think...


----------



## JRR

Well, I’ll have a chance to compare this summer. Riding both the CONO and the CL.

It’ll be interesting to be see how they each do.


----------



## JayPea

Ryan said:


> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.


!!The only thing I refuse to do is let Anderson's moves dictate whether I ride Amtrak or not. I'm the one that makes that decision, not him!!!!!


----------



## spinnaker

Maybe I am naive but aren't the meals with diner cars made to order? If so, how can there be any waste there? Just keep the raw food refrigerated for the next run. With pre-prepared meals I see a lot of potential for waste.


----------



## John Bredin

spinnaker said:


> It is a cold pre-packaged meal. That is all we need to know. Yes a good pre-packaged meal is better than a lousy hot meal but I thought dinner on the CL was very good considering the challenges that come with preparing a meal on a train, in limited space for a large number of people.


It's been a cold pre-packaged meal on the dinerless section of the Empire Builder for years. While I haven't had the pleasure yet of riding that train, I've heard many times that the cold box meals are actually quite good. And Amtrak hasn't yet in those years taken the opportunity from passengers "settling" for cold meals on the EB to cut back even farther, as some here* have [del]leapt wildly[/del] posited.
Of course it depends on the vendor Amtrak picks for the CL and LSL. The cold meals could indeed be inferior. But we know a quality cold meal on Amtrak is possible because it's being done right now.

IMHO, the people who've set their jaw beforehand -- meal unseen much less uneaten -- that this WILL suck, it IS merely a nose under the tent for further food-service downgrades, and they WILL stop riding the trains* sound more than a little alarmist.

*Not necessarily including *spinnaker*; this was just a convenient post to reply to.


----------



## AcrossTheOcean

Looking at the pictures of the boxed meals, I think I am going to have to bring a lot of extra snacks when I ride the CL in late summer. There is no way the breakfast someone took a picture of will keep my bottomless pit of a 12 year-old from going hungry before 1 in the afternoon. Fortunately I have a few months to think about what to pack.

Do the diner cars have convection ovens? If so, it wouldn't be hard to do hot entrees the way that airlines do on long-haul flights. Have the entrees in single-serving foil containers in a convection oven, heat them up and put them on a tray with cold sides. If the city where the train departs has an airport with long-haul flights, there is also at least one airline caterer nearby that is used to that set-up.


----------



## JoeBas

spinnaker said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing. Hot meals, juice, bottled water, etc. were what made me love take Amtrak long distance. Flying is much, much, faster. A car or bus is much, much cheaper. It was that Amtrak was just much, much nicer. But with all these cuts to service and amenities, it gets difficult to justify the train at all. At a certain point, you might as well take a bus, if that's the level of service you'd be getting anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my thoughts. This just might be the tipping point for some people.
Click to expand...

*MIGHT*? Damned sure is over here. For the price we pay for the train to visit family each year, we can fly four of us round trip in first class. What the train sold was a chance to decompress and disconnect, in a civilized environment. No more value, no more financing from us. Far as I'm concerned, turn out the lights.

I especially like the part in the Q&A that says anyone who cancels over this is subject to the normal cancellation fees... which they conveniently changed right before they rolled out the hot poker and asked people to drop their shorts.

*SOOOOO *glad we made that "bucket list" Zephyr/Starlight as a last minute reservation under Guest Rewards 1.0, as one could already see the writing on the wall...


----------



## JoeBas

chrsjrcj said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then youd never have to read any whining again.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is exactly the attitude that will get the whole system shut down.

The above quote could be summarized as "The last thing we need is more people supporting funding for this network. It's not like it's in any danger or anything".


----------



## John Bredin

If every experiment is going to be slapped down and chicken-littled to death before it even begins, the message sent to Amtrak is that anything other than preserving the exact status quo in a specimen jar or amber is unacceptable.

The message announcing this makes it clear that this plan is not set in stone. We all know of experiments that Amtrak has tried and then withdrawn when they didn't work. Feeding back that an experiment once tried is a failure for particular reasons is right and proper. Feeding back that experiments should never be tried and have failed before they even begin is easily and rightly discounted as unhelpful.

IMHO, Amtrak leadership is not sitting Simon Legree-like cackling at the prospect of making the passenger experience as uncomfortable as possible, as if that's their goal. They are trying to balance what attracts passengers to ride and keep riding against very real financial and political constraints. Exploring where that balance lies by putting an ounce weight on one side, always able to pick it up again OR add another depending on what happens, is good management. But some people seem to equate it with blunderingly and maliciously tipping over the scale altogether.


----------



## bretton88

To be honest, Anderson has the right ideas. these are concepts seen in other train systems around the world. Execution and PR has been clumsy though. Just remember this it's like a beta test. They'll make refinements and changes based on customer feedback and not all the features (I.e. hot meals) are present yet. They want to make sure the program functions first.


----------



## jis

This bit about "no hot items" intrigues me. Even the airlines sell hot items in boxed meals in US domestic Y. What makes Amtrak stand out as being unable to do so given they have a whole kitchen capable of heating a few items available, puzzles me. Heck even the Cafe is able to handle that!

Thirdrail, any insights on that? Is it just a pure cost equation? Does a Hamburger and chips pack cost more than the ones that are shown as example on the menu? Afterall they do carry pre-packaged Burgers, Hot Dogs and Pizzas, as well as Jimmy Dean Breakfast Sandwiches in the Cafe. What gives?


----------



## Paul Dow

If you purchased a reservation on one of these trains with downgraded service and want to cancel, I would register a complaint with your credit card to remove any fee. Amtrak has no intention of providing the service you contracted with them. Since they clearly state they will save millions of dollars with this, they are obviously not providing the service you paid for.

The breakfast choices look horrible too. Your choices are high carbohydrates, or high sugar. Thats what they hope will keep you on Amtrak. By making you obese, you won't fit in a 17" X 28" airline seat.

I've never had an Acela 1st class meal, but I would think that would make a much better meal with not much extra effort than the cold MREs that they're going to distribute.

Actually MREs are better since they come with a heating packet to get the food hot. Too much salt in most of those though.


----------



## spinnaker

Can you imagine how the employees feel about getting a "fresh" "choice" everyday.


----------



## cpotisch

John Bredin said:


> The message announcing this makes it clear that this plan is not set in stone. We all know of experiments that Amtrak has tried and then withdrawn when they didn't work. Feeding back that an experiment once tried is a failure for particular reasons is right and proper. Feeding back that experiments should never be tried and have failed before they even begin is easily and rightly discounted as unhelpful.


The most recent significant meal "experiment" occurred on the Silver Star. We all know how that turned out. Under this administration and in this climate, any experiment that doesn't completely fail, will generally stay. We are reaching the tipping point for service and amenities, only time will tell what's next.


----------



## spinnaker

Paul Dow said:


> If you purchased a reservation on one of these trains with downgraded service and want to cancel, I would register a complaint with your credit card to remove any fee. Amtrak has no intention of providing the service you contracted with them. Since they clearly state they will save millions of dollars with this, they are obviously not providing the service you paid for.
> 
> The breakfast choices look horrible too. Your choices are high carbohydrates, or high sugar. Thats what they hope will keep you on Amtrak. By making you obese, you won't fit in a 17" X 28" airline seat.
> 
> I've never had an Acela 1st class meal, but I would think that would make a much better meal with not much extra effort than the cold MREs that they're going to distribute.
> 
> Actually MREs are better since they come with a heating packet to get the food hot. Too much salt in most of those though.


I would first read the fine print on your ticket. Bet it says they reserve the right to make changes at any time.


----------



## PVD

The minefield surrounding food service has been laid by Congress over a number of years. Dancing around the issue has accomplished very little. Like or not, with the attitudes towards funding what they are, it should be increasingly obvious that the current system is unsustainable. I really enjoyed "community dining" particularly at breakfast when it was more likely to be seated with coach passengers (Amish, foreign tourists, young people on a budget), but in general, people's eating habits and preferences are changing, just look at the upheaval in the restaurant business, it has been very difficult for many chains to adopt. Blaming the person at the helm at this moment for things that were in the works for quite a while, or doing what is in essence inevitable show a lack of understanding of how large businesses operate. When you include the drinks and amenity kit, you may come up pretty close in cost to the food items served now, but you are looking at eliminating 1 if not 2 positions on each trip. Using the DC as a lounge at other times is actually a big plus for a train like the LSL, because of the split car for BC there was very little "hangout" space if you didn't want to stay trapped in your room or seat.


----------



## cpotisch

Paul Dow said:


> The breakfast choices look horrible too. Your choices are high carbohydrates, or high sugar. Thats what they hope will keep you on Amtrak. By making you obese, you won't fit in a 17" X 28" airline seat.


Indeed. Particularly since I hate cream cheese and dislike yogurt, meaning my breakfast would be a cold bagel with butter (I hate cream cheese), and some fruit. Compare that to the hot buttermilk pancakes or french toast with powdered sugar that I was offered before.


----------



## Skyline

Seaboard92 said:


> Amtrak's spinsters aka the Marketing Department clearly need an award for being able to turn a clear downgrade of service (especially towards coach passengers) into an exciting, "fresh new development. That is an incredible level of spinning that even I haven't obtained yet. And I thought my degree helped me out a lot


Well, they get that award if they are successful in convincing people it's raining, not a dog pissing on their legs (with credit due Judge Judy).

From the comments here, they don't get the award. Let's see what the wider public thinks. They vote, and they vote with their wallets.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then you'd never have to read any whining again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. We literally have no idea what this food is like, and we have chicken little running around like the world is ending. God forbid we wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement. The litany is things that turn out better than the torches and pitchforks crowd makes them out to be is nearly endless.
Click to expand...

So what level of criticism are you willing to allow before you bring out your own pitchfork? I've never understood why you get a pass for attacking people's opinions as if you have any more right to judge them than they have to judge Amtrak.


----------



## cpotisch

Holy crap, a lot of people are posting here. There are 10 posts in the last 20 minutes.


----------



## jis

spinnaker said:


> Paul Dow said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you purchased a reservation on one of these trains with downgraded service and want to cancel, I would register a complaint with your credit card to remove any fee. Amtrak has no intention of providing the service you contracted with them. Since they clearly state they will save millions of dollars with this, they are obviously not providing the service you paid for.
> 
> The breakfast choices look horrible too. Your choices are high carbohydrates, or high sugar. Thats what they hope will keep you on Amtrak. By making you obese, you won't fit in a 17" X 28" airline seat.
> 
> I've never had an Acela 1st class meal, but I would think that would make a much better meal with not much extra effort than the cold MREs that they're going to distribute.
> 
> Actually MREs are better since they come with a heating packet to get the food hot. Too much salt in most of those though.
> 
> 
> 
> I would first read the fine print on your ticket. Bet it says they reserve the right to make changes at any time.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It is quite likely that the contract is mostly to get you from point A to point B provided no Force Majeure intervenes. The rest of it may not be part of the contracts that you actually entered into, unfortunately. But hey, if you have the time and energy, give it a shot. You may get yourself an additional stash of AGR points. I doubt that the credit card company will pick a fight with Amtrak over it.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well support dismantling the whole national system and shut this side down, then you'd never have to read any whining again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. We literally have no idea what this food is like, and we have chicken little running around like the world is ending. God forbid we wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement. The litany is things that turn out better than the torches and pitchforks crowd makes them out to be is nearly endless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what level of criticism are you willing to allow before you bring out your own pitchfork? I've never understood why you get a pass for attacking people's opinions as if you have any more right to judge them than they have to judge Amtrak.
Click to expand...

There, now he is done with getting the pass.



We'll just have to wait and see when his pitchfork comes out.

But, on the whole letting off steam here is good I think. It probably reduces the chance of someone actually going postal and causing real harm somewhere. Emotions are running high and they need to be dissipated somehow somewhere in a harmless way.


----------



## John Bredin

AcrossTheOcean said:


> Looking at the pictures of the boxed meals, I think I am going to have to bring a lot of extra snacks when I ride the CL in late summer. There is no way the breakfast someone took a picture of will keep my bottomless pit of a 12 year-old from going hungry before 1 in the afternoon. Fortunately I have a few months to think about what to pack.


What boxed meals are you looking at to make this definitive judgment?



In this thread I see pictures of the Empire Builder cold meals, a VIA meal, and various existing Amtrak meals. I don't see pictures of the proposed boxed meals. Honest question; if there's a link to a picture of these proposed meals -- IMHO, impossible unless a contractor has already been selected, and unlikely even then because a contractor can tweak its offerings for a particular customer -- I'd love to see it.


----------



## spinnaker

cpotisch said:


> Holy crap, a lot of people are posting here. There are 10 posts in the last 20 minutes.



What I was going to mention. The good that comes out of all of this is it gets people talking.

Speaking of which. Is anyone planning on writing Amtrak? Email or snail mail?

My main complaint is how this was done. as I mentioned above this should have been decided last year if they were going to do it for this year.


----------



## cpotisch

spinnaker said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy crap, a lot of people are posting here. There are 10 posts in the last 20 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I was going to mention. The good that comes out of all of this is it gets people talking.
> 
> Speaking of which. Is anyone planning on writing Amtrak? Email or snail mail?
> 
> My main complaint is how this was done. as I mentioned above this should have been decided last year if they were going to do it for this year.
Click to expand...

At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've never understood why you get a pass for attacking people's opinions as if you have any more right to judge them than they have to judge Amtrak.


As you've demonstrated, I don't get a pass. Anything I post is subject to the same amount of critisism thta I dole out.
As far as what level of critisism is appropriate, I think that it's just important to stick to the facts and wait until we know something before casting judegement. Maybe that's just crazy and old fashioned.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.


By way of example, this is a reasonable ask, and something that Amtrak should do.

Disputing with your credit card is a whole different story. You bought a ticket to get you from Point A to Point B - that's still going to happen.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If you look at this logically....

This is a major operational change. The SCA's will be expected to do more work (deliver more meals and drinks), the LSA in the sleeper lounge will have a very different job than prior. These operational changes need to happen first... And then when they see what does and doesn't work, they can tweak some other changes like hot entrees. Eliminating the "heating up" process keeps that from being a large bump in the road as this process gets rolled out.

For historical reference, when simplified dining came out all we had was the Bob Evans breakfast scramble.... Eventually it was decided that 1 chef could handle scrambled eggs, but not "eggs any way" so fresh scrambled eggs came back on the menu, but not eggs cooked any way like it was prior to SDS. Meaning we went from fresh eggs cooked anyway... To a prepackaged egg bowl (huge downgrade) to fresh scrambled eggs.

I think there are some really smart possibilities for extra revenue with a sleeper lounge. If you can offer an espresso bar for the mornings, a wine and cheese plate in the afternoons, and deluxe desserts in the evennings... If done right this could be a positive for passengers and for revenue.


----------



## MikeM

From where I sit, really logically, I'm ready to pass on future Amtrak travel given the cost, declining quality, indifferent service, difficulty getting to / from stations, etc.

My last trip, on the Texas Eagle, is pretty instructive. My economy sleeper was a S-1 refurb, but which was showing it's age. Lots of rattles, the AC wasn't working that great, and the ceiling panels looked grimy. Shower walls dull, no juice out, bottled water was available, but no ice. As I looked around the car, I couldn't help but notice that in Bedroom A (which had been listed as available 24 hours earlier for DFW - CHI for $580 one way) had a big chunk of duct tape holding a ceiling panel up, and other rooms looked tired with loose drapes and iffy carpet. So a real bargain.

As I sat in my room, the conductor and another attendant were running by at one point because something was going on in the transdorm, a leak which made the car smell bad. I looked ahead and could see towels all over the carpet in front of the center top shower.

The diner was well run at least (it was the typical CCC), with the standard Amtrak fare.

The sightseer lounge was a S-1 rebuild but was extremely tired. Panels around the windows were bulging from all the coats of paint over the years, and the bins / railings around the chairs were dirty and worn.

Now, I spent roughly 2 1/2 times as much to take the train as to fly. It was an OK trip, but not super special. Looking through dirty windows at the passing scenery, the main thought that kept going through my mind is how old the equipment is and why aren't we looking at new equipment. I just don't see in the current Amtrak leadership any appreciation of the LD rail service map. I know at least two of my dining companions on the trip who were similarly frustrated by the quality of the trip, one of whom was in the transdorm and was frustrated by the condition of her car, and another who boarded at a rural station that was untended and it gave them the creeps.


----------



## seat38a

spinnaker said:


> Maybe I am naive but aren't the meals with diner cars made to order? If so, how can there be any waste there? Just keep the raw food refrigerated for the next run. With pre-prepared meals I see a lot of potential for waste.


Paging *neroden* I think this is your department.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

spinnaker said:


> Maybe I am naive but aren't the meals with diner cars made to order? If so, how can there be any waste there? Just keep the raw food refrigerated for the next run. With pre-prepared meals I see a lot of potential for waste.


The only thing I can say is "made to order" with a straight face is the steak. Eggs are supposedly cooked on board but you can't order them any way other than scrambled. Potatoes are baked on board but that process is started long before you arrive at the table. Other than that nearly everything else is precooked, frozen/refrigerated, and then merely reheated before serving.


----------



## fixj

I’m just curious. If they do offer the cold sleeper meals to coach passengers, how much do you think they would charge? What F & B revenue value do you think Amtrak will cost out each cold sleeper meal?


----------



## cpotisch

fixj said:


> I’m just curious. If they do offer the cold sleeper meals to coach passengers, how much do you think they would charge? What F & B revenue value do you think Amtrak will cost out each cold sleeper meal?


Too much.


----------



## Ryan

How much is too much?


----------



## TinCan782

All of this might resurrect the "calling ahead and having a pizza delivered to the train" discussions.

How about train-side food vendors (if allowed) a-la the "burrito lady" in ELP? Of course, if the train is late and the stop is cut short that might not always work.


----------



## seat38a

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/ Take a look at each item. Pretty much everything is a "kit" or sous-vide meaning it comes pre bagged or "made by" on the current menu for the LSL.

- The steak on the LSL is also sous-vide and not cooked to order. Learned something new today.

- Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like on the LSL, everything is just reheat, slap on Amtrak plastic plate and serve.

- Even the omelet on the LSL isn't cooked fresh and just assembled from precooked items including the eggs.

- I'm also guessing that the "kits" are single heat and serve a la tv dinner or boxed meals.


----------



## PVD

In the real world pricing is set by response to competition, and a desire to sell at the price that delivers the best overall yield. That may mean a higher price and a lower volume, it may mean a lower price and a higher volume, or a low price on one item that triggers the purchase of other highly profitable items. Effect on labor and handling costs are factored in. Also, food service can be used as a tool to attract passengers at a higher price point than if it wasn't there (DownEaster is a perfect example of that concept) Lots of people complain that the beer is expensive at MSG or CitiField, but they sure buy a boatload of it. Unless you are running a social action group or a charity, why would you price under what delivers the best points on a yield curve for the route (which factors in effect on passenger loads and price sensitivity of fare points)?


----------



## chrsjrcj

It would be one thing if these changes were a one time thing. Unfortunately, history tells us that service only gets worse and in very few cases does it actually improve.

I had flashbacks to the Silver Palm when the Silver Star lost its diner a few years ago. On the Silver Palm, first they took the dining car and sleeping cars, then they truncated the service from Miami to Savannah.

It's just a matter of time before the next ax falls on the long distance network.


----------



## Lonestar648

On the issue of preparing food to order, remember that the most of the refrigerated/frozen food can NOT be taken back into stock because constant refrigerated temperatures can not be guaranteed, so all un served refrigerated food is trashed per USDA regulations. The hope is that with this new system there will be little or no waste.

The other cost savings with this change is the labor savings. To bring back hot meals I think you would need to increase your labor costs with adding a Food Specialist, and that I do not see happening. Depending on the per meal budget Amtrak is allocating, the vendor could be creative, so any tweaking would be with the meal itself. Appears breakfast needs to be rethought, like a cereal option.

People have been asking for a Sleeping Car lounge because the SSL gets so full at times.

I am sure this is an experiment to see how to roll it out across the country. They will learn lots, make changes, then roll out to a couple more trains like the SM, CONO, and/or TE.


----------



## CAQuail

As I said before I am trying to take a wait and see attitude, though I am expecting it to be a major downgrade (sorry not a big fan of change and having worked in the airline/airport industry for the past 12-15 years I approach any "service enhancements" with suspicion). My biggest complaint is the lack of a hot breakfast or any hot options. On a recent flight to London I was served a "full" English breakfast (eggs, bacon, mushrooms, tomato, fruit and roll) in economy on British Airways. On Aer Lingus in economy you can order a premium meal on transatlantic flights and they are rather good!

https://www.aerlingus.com/experience-aer-lingus/dining/transatlantic-economy/#/tab-0-bia-pre-order


----------



## PVD

Well, there is no SSL (or anything close) on the LSL, it is the single level trains that suffer most in the lounge department.


----------



## Lonestar648

You are getting the VII diner that will be Sleeper passengers only.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Lonestar648 said:


> You are getting the VII diner that will be Sleeper passengers only.


Which IS a major upgrade from current lounge options on the SL fleet. Whenever I rode the LSL I always had bad luck and got a room on the non-River side. With no cafe on the nyc section that meant no option to see the scenery.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

> On the issue of preparing food to order, remember that the most of the refrigerated/frozen food can NOT be taken back into stock because constant refrigerated temperatures can not be guaranteed, so all un served refrigerated food is trashed per USDA regulations. The hope is that with this new system there will be little or no waste.


Always find the statement about how the food must be throw out at the end to be just BS.

Cant guarantee to keep food at a constant temperature, then you should not be handling food at all.

Someday I will find a USDA inspector who can enlighten me to correct policy, as I am too lazy to be looking for it myself.

Food Transporter for the last 20 years.


----------



## lordsigma

I'm ok with them trying this out if it is a genuine attempt to be sustainable and preserve the train (and not a deliberate sabotage attempt to kill the train.) At least they are going to deploy the VII diner to the LSL which gives them the flexibility to tweak this new program further down the line since the train would be fully equipped (for example lets say by allowing heat up of the food for an additional charge and adding some limited grill items such as breakfast or something else along those lines) and also would allow them to go back to full diner after the NYP summer work is done if this doesn't work out (or to vary the service seasonally such as offering full diner during the busier times of year and the limited program during less busy times.)


----------



## PVD

Actually, most (not all) food service regs that cover Amtrak are from the FDA, and are spelled out pretty clearly in the Service Standards Manuals.


----------



## lordsigma

I WILL say though that a different approach would be needed for the western trains - and some eastern trains such as the Auto Train and Meteor in my opinion still justify a diner.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Actually, most (not all) food service regs that cover Amtrak are from the FDA, and are spelled out pretty clearly in the Service Standards Manuals.


Yeah, I was scratching my head about why USDA would have anything to do directly with retail dispensing of food. FDA sounds right.


----------



## PVD

That makes sense....One size does not fit all. AT and the Western runs are clearly different.


----------



## seat38a

lordsigma said:


> I WILL say though that a different approach would be needed for the western trains - and some eastern trains such as the Auto Train and Meteor in my opinion still justify a diner.


Well the Auto Train I think would be high on the list of getting this change. Only two meals on the route (I think). The sleeping car lounge and the amenities like wine and cheese could probably be brought back using the dining car as the lounge. Coach passengers would still get a boxed meal but probably choose from 2 choices.

How many staff members are there on each train related to food service for both coach and sleeper? Also, sleeper passengers only get a continental breakfast correct?


----------



## lordsigma

seat38a said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> I WILL say though that a different approach would be needed for the western trains - and some eastern trains such as the Auto Train and Meteor in my opinion still justify a diner.
> 
> 
> 
> Well the Auto Train I think would be high on the list of getting this change. Only two meals on the route (I think). The sleeping car lounge and the amenities like wine and cheese could probably be brought back using the dining car as the lounge. Coach passengers would still get a boxed meal but probably choose from 2 choices.
> 
> How many staff members are there on each train related to food service for both coach and sleeper?
Click to expand...

The Auto Train however is unique in that it is a 100% long distance train and caters exclusively to those going overnight. Northeast to Florida is one of if not the most popular overnight pairing in the Amtrak system. Offering the meal on it, in my opinion, is an important in keeping the service as a competitive option. Given the AT's high revenue, they should be delicate with the changes made to try to reduce losses - maybe tweak the free meals given to coach - but outright elimination of the diner on the AT I think would be a major mistake. This is a long distance trip that IS quite popular. This isn't like the other LD trains where the majority of the pax are short range corridor riders.


----------



## jis

OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.


----------



## seat38a

jis said:


> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.


Didn't think about it that way. Everyone gets a meal so no need to estimate to come up short or over.






Well it will probably be the worst performing western train first. I'm guessing the Sunset Limited. Logistically, I think it would be easier on the Coast Starlight assuming they plan to replenish and pickup the meals along the route.

On Train 14:

Day 1:

Lunch loaded at LAUS

Dinner picked up SB/SLO

Day 2:

Breakfast picked up in SAC/Oakland

Lunch SAC or Eugene

Dinner PDX

Coach attendants could possibly take orders ahead of time and the LSA could email/call whatever before the train arrived. For major delays, they already carry the snack packs aboard the train which they could hand out.


----------



## TiBike

Cold, boxed meals that you can eat when and where you choose would be an upgrade for many west coast passengers. If the meals were healthier – more greens, less fat and carbs – than what you can get in the diners now, that would be even better. But just eliminating the dining car "experience" – bossy announcements, regimented eating times, forced socialisation – would be a huge improvement.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.


Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.


----------



## seat38a

lordsigma said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.
Click to expand...

I think wastage is like .0001% of the problem, the big issue is labor. On my last trip on the CS, it had 2 chefs, 4 servers, 1 LSA in the dining car 1 attendant in the PPC. That is 8 FB people tied up just in the dining car.

If you decoupled the food from the sleepers, and now assuming a big chunk of the sleeping car passengers decide not to eat in the dining car, your loses look even worse.


----------



## zephyr17

Just one historical note, the meals were included in the sleeper fares (which were increased to cover the costs of the meals when that was implemented) in order to provide the diners with a guaranteed revenue stream (my fare includes costs for 2 meals per room per meal period, but I only get one).

That portion of the sleeper tickets is still counted as diner revenue, whether the meals are consumed or not.

It is actually to the benefit of food services' bottom line to have the meals included in the sleeper fare.


----------



## lordsigma

seat38a said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think wastage is like .0001% of the problem, the big issue is labor. On my last trip on the CS, it had 2 chefs, 4 servers, 1 LSA in the dining car 1 attendant in the PPC. That is 8 FB people tied up just in the dining car.
> 
> If you decoupled the food from the sleepers, and now assuming a big chunk of the sleeping car passengers decide not to eat in the dining car, your loses look even worse.
Click to expand...

I think it could work coupled with outsourcing operations.


----------



## bretton88

https://transportation.house.gov/uploadedfiles/prria_2015_packet.pdf

To note, here is the relevant legislation Amtrak has to follow. Notice major tenants are "run like a business" and "eliminate food and beverage losses" within 5 years (2019). The legislation even explicitly addresses Amtrak ignoring F&B losses. This is how we got to today.


----------



## jis

seat38a said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think wastage is like .0001% of the problem, the big issue is labor. On my last trip on the CS, it had 2 chefs, 4 servers, 1 LSA in the dining car 1 attendant in the PPC. That is 8 FB people tied up just in the dining car.
> If you decoupled the food from the sleepers, and now assuming a big chunk of the sleeping car passengers decide not to eat in the dining car, your loses look even worse.
Click to expand...

Even for Labor AT is the only train that has the more efficient Labor Contract making its Labor costs more competitive than any other LD train on Amtrak, due to the sharing of job roles that is permitted in the contract.



bretton88 said:


> https://transportation.house.gov/uploadedfiles/prria_2015_packet.pdf
> 
> To note, here is the relevant legislation Amtrak has to follow. Notice major tenants are "run like a business" and "eliminate food and beverage losses" within 5 years (2019). The legislation even explicitly addresses Amtrak ignoring F&B losses. This is how we got to today.


I am glad people are slowly discovering this fact. I have been trying to educate them about this. Throwing a hissy-fit about Anderson and calling him names is not going to fix anything .


----------



## lordsigma

I don't think its impossible to make the diners work if run as a for-profit business outsourced to an operator. You let the operator decide how to run it - sit down style, take out style with the option of eating food at a table or to go (in your seat or sleeper) sort of like a cafe car but with more (and fresher) options. Maybe it isn't the traditional "dining car experience" but you have a captive audience of riders on the train and if you make it contemporary and desirable thing that people want to come to then they will come - they will have no where else to eat. When I say decouple from sleeper tickets I do not mean that it has to be the dining car experience of today, they do need to be creative, but I don't think cold box meals are necessarily the only thing that can work.)


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think wastage is like .0001% of the problem, the big issue is labor. On my last trip on the CS, it had 2 chefs, 4 servers, 1 LSA in the dining car 1 attendant in the PPC. That is 8 FB people tied up just in the dining car.
> 
> If you decoupled the food from the sleepers, and now assuming a big chunk of the sleeping car passengers decide not to eat in the dining car, your loses look even worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even for Labor AT is the only train that has the more efficient Labor Contract making its Labor costs more competitive than any other LD train on Amtrak, due to the sharing of job roles that is permitted in the contract.
Click to expand...

I think AT works the way it is. Most of what I say is for other LDs (such as the western trains) where it is harder to predict patronage in the diner.


----------



## seat38a

> I think it could work coupled with outsourcing operations.


Since 2012/2013, when I first joined this forum, one thing that I've come to realize is that Amtrak's Unions won't go for outsourcing or change. Pretty much all that leaves Amtrak is to cut and eliminate the position. The modified service on the CL and the LSL is a CUT in labor for sure and the food OUTSOURCED. Seems to be the only way Amtrak can achieve anything related to labor is cut and or eliminate. Replacing Amtrak employee with outsourced employees will just not fly.

What do you all think of my observation?


----------



## bretton88

lordsigma said:


> I don't think its impossible to make the diners work if run as a for-profit business outsourced to an operator. You let the operator decide how to run it - sit down style, take out style with the option of eating food at a table or to go (in your seat or sleeper) sort of like a cafe car but with more (and fresher) options. Maybe it isn't the traditional "dining car experience" but you have a captive audience of riders on the train and if you make it contemporary and desirable thing that people want to come to then they will come - they will have no where else to eat. When I say decouple from sleeper tickets I do not mean that it has to be the dining car experience of today, they do need to be creative, but I don't think cold box meals are necessarily the only thing that can work.)


Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Been quite a ride here the last couple of days. Bottom line: like it or not, this will happen. No choice but to wait on it, ride it out and, like Amtrak, evaluate later. I am guessing that this took many more months of planning that predates Anderson so he can't be the sole "blame" here. I, for one, as a frequent (roughly 2-3 times per year) rider of the Capitol, will miss the steak dinner and full breakfast. In fact, with a trip planned in a couple of weeks I will obviously experience those meals for the final time. But I will ride again, no matter. We can hope that this isn't the beginning of the end of traditional meal service on other trains but wringing hands and gnashing our teeth right now won't change a thing.


----------



## Larry H.

Ryan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.
> 
> 
> 
> By way of example, this is a reasonable ask, and something that Amtrak should do.
> 
> Disputing with your credit card is a whole different story. You bought a ticket to get you from Point A to Point B - that's still going to happen.
Click to expand...

I said years ago that some here will defend the awful service and cost no matter how terrible they get. I never even dreamed of how sad the service would become. I have an amtrak card with a lot of points, but the things that used to make going from point a to point b have all be been removed. I haven't ridden the CNO since the diners were eliminated. One of the things to look forward too even on a 5 hour part of the run was a meal with fellow passengers. At first they had regular diners and service, then they had chef's with really decent food, but then the bottom fell out and things have gone from bad to worse. The charge for that trip from A to B has become continually worse while the service has all be been removed. I for one am not happy about a dinner of all cold foods, or a breakfast that looks like motel 6 when I may have spent lots of money on a room. The downgrades have been coming furiously for several years now. I guess there are a lot of people out there who still will pay and ride, but my excitement about a rail trip is all but gone. When I look at the trains and diners of other nations it is simply astounding how my quality some of them have. We have been fed a bunch of bull that anything being hauled by an engine is worth the fare.


----------



## Larry H.

PaTrainFan said:


> Been quite a ride here the last couple of days. Bottom line: like it or not, this will happen. No choice but to wait on it, ride it out and, like Amtrak, evaluate later. I am guessing that this took many more months of planning that predates Anderson so he can't be the sole "blame" here. I, for one, as a frequent (roughly 2-3 times per year) rider of the Capitol, will miss the steak dinner and full breakfast. In fact, with a trip planned in a couple of weeks I will obviously experience those meals for the final time. But I will ride again, no matter. We can hope that this isn't the beginning of the end of traditional meal service on other trains but wringing hands and gnashing our teeth right now won't change a thing.


You wrote this after I saw the thread, the trouble with that theory is that the only direction they have taken on the past 10 years have been down hill. And yes they most likely can figure out how to make train travel worse, they proved it so far.


----------



## cpotisch

Isnt it the case that the LSL has a very high diner-utilization rate for Coach pax? So this system cuts out those sales, and makes the coach product less enticing. I just dont think that when you have a major service that isnt profitable (like meal service), slashing it to pieces makes it better. Now its less expensive to offer, but at a certain point why have it at all? We then see the service fail, management says its not profitable, and a couple years later its round two. Eventually Amtrak just becomes a skeleton, and you might as well eliminate it altogether.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Isnt it the case that the LSL has a very high diner-utilization rate for Coach pax? So this system cuts out those sales, and makes the coach product less enticing. I just dont think that when you have a major service that isnt profitable (like meal service), slashing it to pieces makes it better. Now its less expensive to offer, but at a certain point why have it at all? We then see the service fail, management says its not profitable, and a couple years later its round two. Eventually Amtrak just becomes a skeleton, and you might as well eliminate it altogether.


We don't know for sure what inventory of meal packs they will load. In theory at least, they have said that meal packs left after serving Sleeper passengers will be available for sale, which is basically the same thing as what happens for Coach passengers to get access to the Diner. Now whether sufficient additional meal packs will be loaded in the inventory for significant access via sale by Coach passengers will remain unknown until this thing is seen in operation.

Just like a legislation was used to throw this monkey wrench in the statute, "we the people" can cause another legislation to change the statute to remove the break even requirement and moreover specify minimum level of service that must be provided, perhaps defining limits on what level of subsidies can be used for such. This is to some extent, and should be to a greater extent a subject of discussion to resolve this issue for good going forward at the next legislative opportunity. My worry is that by then there may be nothing left to save. Just keeping fingers crossed for the moment and hoping all will join in for every tactical means to protect as much as we can until then.


----------



## seat38a

Larry H. said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.
> 
> 
> 
> By way of example, this is a reasonable ask, and something that Amtrak should do.
> 
> Disputing with your credit card is a whole different story. You bought a ticket to get you from Point A to Point B - that's still going to happen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I look at the trains and diners of other nations it is simply astounding how my quality some of them have
Click to expand...

Don't know how I missed this one. I'm updating my list again.






http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/72759-amtraks-new-fresh-choices-dining-on-cl-lsl/page-7&do=findComment&comment=750094


----------



## Chey

Ryan said:


> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.


AMEN! Thank you!!


----------



## jis

Chey said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN! Thank you!!
Click to expand...

Hey, it is more often than not just an idle threat (I am taking my bat and ball home) rather than a real promise that can be banked. Then again sometimes it is serious, and sometimes de facto it works out that way since one does not have enough money to do anything else anyway


----------



## Lonestar648

Other country public rail systems are subsidized. These systems serve the public making convenient stops that are unprofitable due to the number of passengers.

Outsourcing the Dining Car will not bring the 3 million dollar savings they are expecting now. The Outsourcing vendors is going to want a guaranteed number of passengers coming the Dining Car, which means Amtrak would have to entice people into the diner. I don't see this working out to achieve the benefit Amtrak needs.


----------



## acelafan

I'm really disappointed with this change. I liked the watching the countryside pass while enjoying a hot meal and meeting new people (but then escaping back to my room at times).

Question - I live in a state whose senators despise Amtrak and its horrid 'waste'. What's the best action for me to take - obviously write Amtrak and make a big donation to RPA (NARP)?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Chey said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN! Thank you!!
Click to expand...

Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.


----------



## PVD

DownEaster is outsourced. It loses a good bit of money anyway. The agencies are fine with that because their studies indicate that the additional traffic generated by having decent food service, and the higher prices they can charge because train have that service more than offset the losses. In other words, even though they lose money on food, it is less than they would lose without it. All outsourcing usually does is give the money gained by screwing a bunch of workers to another layer of management and investors. If the only way to have a service exist is to do it on the backs of its employees, its existence is not justified.


----------



## seat38a

PVD said:


> DownEaster is outsourced. It loses a good bit of money anyway. The agencies are fine with that because their studies indicate that the additional traffic generated by having decent food service, and the higher prices they can charge because train have that service more than offset the losses. In other words, even though they lose money on food, it is less than they would lose without it. All outsourcing usually does is give the money gained by screwing a bunch of workers to another layer of management and investors. If the only way to have a service exist is to do it on the backs of its employees, its existence is not justified.


As jis has pointed out about the flexibility of the Auto Train Unionized workers, if the rest of the system was a bit more flexible like they are, then I'm sure things just might have been different.

Also, as I pointed out way earlier on this topic regarding my last two experience. The dining car staff did absolutely NOTHING to endear any sympathy for themselves or for me to advocate for their continual existence on my last two train trips. If getting paid a fair wage + tips + benefits equates to nasty service and just a nasty human being, then using your own words: its existence is not justified.


----------



## jis

The problem we are facing is lack of an eco-system based thinking. Instead it is too much compartmentalized and LOB structured thinking while insisting on unrealistic financial goals for each LOB to the detriment of the well being of the eco-system. We have managed to screw the pooch of many otherwise well run businesses too due to such errors of the way in which things are managed.


----------



## chrsjrcj

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Also, you can't tell me that with 47 years of data, Amtrak doesn't know what amount of additional food in the dining car to allocate to coach passengers. In fact, I would think it would be easier than a traditional restaurant considering train load is known in advanced.


----------



## seat38a

chrsjrcj said:


> IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:
> 
> 1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.
> 
> _*2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.*_
> 
> 3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!
> 
> 4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.


They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.


----------



## chrsjrcj

seat38a said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:
> 
> 1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.
> 
> _*2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.*_
> 
> 3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!
> 
> 4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.
Click to expand...

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment, while also providing a level of "service that exceeds customer expectations." That last part is straight from their mission statement.


----------



## spinnaker

Lonestar648 said:


> Other country public rail systems are subsidized. These systems serve the public making convenient stops that are unprofitable due to the number of passengers.
> 
> Outsourcing the Dining Car will not bring the 3 million dollar savings they are expecting now. The Outsourcing vendors is going to want a guaranteed number of passengers coming the Dining Car, which means Amtrak would have to entice people into the diner. I don't see this working out to achieve the benefit Amtrak needs.


But Amtrak is also subsidized. Our problem here is the vast space that needs to be served. For example, you can go from Milan to Naples in less than a day and still get in early enough to have dinner in town. While train service in euro countries are excellent they are really only serving a tiny fraction of what is being down here.


----------



## seat38a

chrsjrcj said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:
> 
> 1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.
> 
> _*2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.*_
> 
> 3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!
> 
> 4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment, while also providing a level of "service that exceeds customer expectations." That last part is straight from their mission statement.
Click to expand...

The DMV and the IRS have mission statements as well, so whats your point?



> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,


Are you seriously asking this question?



Where's the money????


----------



## chrsjrcj

seat38a said:


> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously asking this question?
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the money????
Click to expand...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/


----------



## Bill M.

Just a short time ago, I rued the loss of the Pacific Coast Parlor Car, one of that last vestiges of the great days of train Travel. Now I am sad to see that the Dining car of the Capitol Limited is gone as of June 1. First Class Passengers will have a choice of two cold meals in the cafe car. Dreaded Airline food is at least often hot.

The Capitol Limited is one of the least publicly admired routes, but it is also one of the best trips on Amtrak. One leaves busy DC - going over the stopped traffic on the beltway, giving you the chance to love train travel just a bit more, then, at dusk, one looks down on the Historic village of Harper's Ferry. Then up the quiet, lovely Potomac, and a pleasant dinner with new friends before bunking down before the sorry roadbed in the PA rust belt. You awake with Lake Erie out the Starboard side, then industrial Indiana and bustling Chicago! What a wonderful trip.

The person in the WH said he would get rid of Amtrak forever. He's doing just that; cutting funding, and the new CEO, Richard Anderson (of Delta and Northwest Airlines) is slowly removing one of the last of America's historic and beautiful treasures.

Does anyone think that those of us who love these trains aren't noticing? We are.


----------



## jis

In this case availability of money is not the issue. Being compliant with a statute on the books is. The statute specifically says zero net loss in F&B by 2020.

Now the last time this sort of a thing came up, Mr. Warrington was stuck trying to bring Amtrak to the "glide slope to profitability", and I can only speculate what Mr. Anderson would have done with that statute. So like Warrington back then Anderson could have just ignored the whole thing and carried on merrily. I guess he is not that kind of a guy, and the Board hopefully knew who they were hiring for what purpose. Which leaves me wondering sometimes, what the Amtrak Board actually wants Amtrak to be.

Quite intriguing really.


----------



## seat38a

chrsjrcj said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously asking this question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the money????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/
Click to expand...

And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.

$1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)

$650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)

$250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology


----------



## chrsjrcj

seat38a said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously asking this question?
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the money????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.
> 
> $1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)
> 
> $650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)
> 
> $250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology
Click to expand...

And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.


----------



## lordsigma

bretton88 said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think its impossible to make the diners work if run as a for-profit business outsourced to an operator. You let the operator decide how to run it - sit down style, take out style with the option of eating food at a table or to go (in your seat or sleeper) sort of like a cafe car but with more (and fresher) options. Maybe it isn't the traditional "dining car experience" but you have a captive audience of riders on the train and if you make it contemporary and desirable thing that people want to come to then they will come - they will have no where else to eat. When I say decouple from sleeper tickets I do not mean that it has to be the dining car experience of today, they do need to be creative, but I don't think cold box meals are necessarily the only thing that can work.)
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.
Click to expand...

Never heard about this, what happened with that?


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN! Thank you!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.
Click to expand...

That is not at all what I am advocating, thanks.


----------



## lordsigma

seat38a said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously asking this question?
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the money????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.
> 
> $1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)
> 
> $650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)
> 
> $250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology
Click to expand...

Doesn't part of the 1.3 billion for the National Network go towards state-supported service? My understanding was that this goes to both business lines and includes both operational subsidies and capital spending.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I don't remember the details but it was going to be a Subway restaurant on one of the corridor trains. I'm not sure how it was going to be stocked, staffed, etc.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks outsourcing amtrak F&B would work. First of all... what kind of company would do it? There's no way to make a profit. You can't pay someone $2 an hour + tips and expect them to work an amtrak LD schedule. Who's gonna do that? So then you are paying staff a decent wage... which amtrak already does. There really isn't any other ways to cut significant costs... so where does the savings come from?


----------



## lordsigma

The F&B statute on the books should go though - while I am all about trying to make things more efficient, this statute essentially makes outright cuts like this the only option. The idea that any part of Amtrak can be 100% profitable and not lose money is not feasible. Rail is subsidized everywhere (as are by the way all forms of travel.) The idea that the NEC is profitable is in reality a farce once you throw in the capital side of things and count the costs that they assign for it to LD trains. Should they be losing 3 millon dollars on F&B on these trains? Maybe not, but I also don't personally believe that means a zero loss is feasible or that it has to be the answer. The trains are subsidized to provide a public service - they can't and should not be expected to be profitable as long as they arent' downright wasteful. Also when I think about some of the other crazy stuff that the government spends money on the F&B loss at Amtrak really doesn't bother me and at least its providing a service people use, rather than the billions of dollars we dump on military hardware (some programs of which are mainly to keep certain members of Congress happy.)

With some of the answers people have given I do see why outsourcing would probably not work.


----------



## districtRich

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.


----------



## Ryan

chrsjrcj said:


> And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.


Not after next year.


----------



## Bob Dylan

No need to add Food Service staff to provide HOT ( heated) food in the First Class Lounge Car.

IINM the Cardinal,City of New,Orleans,LSL and the Starvation ( No Diner, just Cafe) currently run without a Chef with OBS serving as LSA,Wait Person and "Cook".

I see no reason why the New "Yard Queen" VL Dinners can't be used as the First Class Food Service Car and Lounge and serve Hot and Cold Food Options similar to how the Pacific Parlour Cars used to operate with One Attendant.

In the case of adding extra Sleepers and Full Loads,and on the 2 Night Western LD Trains, 2 attendants could be used like in Acela First Class!


----------



## Larry H.

If the "first class lounge" is a x diner won't that be just lovely. About as nice as the ridiculous amfleet diners as lounges on the LSL. My guess is most of the people in charge never rode in a first class lounge, which used to be on nearly every name train worth riding. Just a clue, it wasn't a bunch of booths lined on the walls. It was as nice as anyones living room with fancy sofas and chairs, writing desk, book cases, free post cards and often a small bar with attendant.

And I totally disagree with the view expressed that the main thing is getting somewhere and a diner shouldn't be a consideration. When you pay the kind of fare they want for a several day trip you should have something more than a cold sandwich to eat.

And since the last post I wrote my congressman a long note about what I thought of their law that is destroying food service on board the trains. I told him there are a lot of very angry customers who expect more from congress than denying decent food. Along those lines it just occurred how much they spend just trying to get people on food stamps, but nothing for tax payers who are paying for them.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

lordsigma said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard about this, what happened with that?
Click to expand...

Once upon a time, trains that origin at Albany had food service. Amtrak cut the food service, but left the cars on the train. When the food service was cut a local Subway operator try to fill in for the lost of service, by selling product on the train. The union crew did not help, and basically blocked them from selling. Add in a few threats that were reported and the Subway operator end service within a week or so.


----------



## Chey

Devil's Advocate said:


> Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.


Apologies, DA, it was callous of me and not a little hypocritical given my kvetching about cancellation penalties about a month ago. I understand that the constant changes are discouraging many who see most or all of them as downgrades. But I will be an Amtrak customer until the day they fold; it's the only form of travel I enjoy. So it's a bit hard for me to understand others who can tolerate other kinds of travel. It was an emotional response and I'm sorry it offended you.


----------



## chrsjrcj

districtRich said:


> I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.


How much of this growth can be attributed to state funded trains vs. the national network?

I'm not defending elaborate meals, and I do acknowledge the current F&B system is broken. I don't see what is proposed on the CL and LSL to be a worthy solution though. Rather than expanding revenue opportunities for F&B, Amtrak is cutting their losses.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Ryan said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.
> 
> 
> 
> Not after next year.
Click to expand...




chrsjrcj said:


> IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:
> 
> 1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.
> 
> *2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.*
> 
> 3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!
> 
> 4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.


----------



## SubwayNut

I believe the cafe car on the Downeaster is run by a private catering company employee and not an Amtrak employee.


----------



## Thirdrail7

chrsjrcj said:


> districtRich said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.
> 
> 
> 
> How much of this growth can be attributed to state funded trains vs. the national network?
> 
> I'm not defending elaborate meals, and I do acknowledge the current F&B system is broken. I don't see what is proposed on the CL and LSL to be a worthy solution though. Rather than expanding revenue opportunities for F&B, Amtrak is cutting their losses.
Click to expand...


This is something I pointed out quite some time ago. Corridor growth comes at the expense of the LD network. Equipment has routinely been diverted from the LD network to state supported services. Of course you're not going to have growth when you're actually constricting the LD business line by making smaller trains.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?
> 
> 
> 
> Coach passengers are currently accommodated in the Diner only after all Sleeper passengers are served. They will be sold meals that remain after all Sleeper passengers are served. The question is what number of meals will be loaded beyond what is needed to serve Sleeper passengers. Other than that, the situation will be exactly like what it is now.
Click to expand...

I'd put it a different way. The maître d' goes through the sleepers first and then the coaches to take dinner or lunch reservations. I always ask for the first seating (and travel in a sleeper). On my trip on the Coast Starlight last month, I was seated with some coach passengers at the first seating. So I guess the maître d' felt there would be enough meals for coach passengers BEFORE all sleeper pax were actually served. In other words, first class passengers at a later seating might be at a disadvantage and have been out of luck with their first choice having been "sold out" (since the reservations say nothing about what one will actually order) while coach passengers at an earlier seating would have all gotten their choices. But honestly service in the dining car on that particular trip last month was so bad that in the future I would probably opt to have my meals in the room. Even at the first seating, there was no salad because "we ran of lettuce". Really? And it took literally a half hour between having finished our main course to even be able to order dessert--and that was only AFTER we asked and even at the first seating at dinner a couple of dessert items were already not available!

Time to bring back Harvey Houses at select stations?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

In my history of being on this forum, I have never seen a thread pile up so fast (and still be on topic!). Let's talk about that paltry breakfast offering. I usually do not eat breakfast unless I am traveling and then I want something relatively substantial. The breakfast offering listed is more in line with light grazing, and since I would likely be more hungry than usual from the not so substantial supper offerings, the overpriced and not-so-healthy cafe offerings may not look so bad after all!


----------



## Lonestar648

You must have been on the return leg. I have found that some items have run out early on the trip. With the trains provisioned for a round trip, this can happen. The TE is one I remember returning to CHI.


----------



## Lonestar648

I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.


----------



## lordsigma

districtRich said:


> I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.


Under that arguement though then basically everything should be cut (sleepers, baggage, etc.) other than coach seating. F&B isn't the only reason the trains lose money. Last I checked the Silver Star still loses a lot of money. Maybe what is being proposed is the answer for these two trains - willing to give it a try. Once again my main point is I don't think this should be a one size fits all thing as every route is different.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Apparently this thread has brought out a lot of emotions (and some profanity). Posts (and responses quoting those posts) will be hidden if an offensive word is used or if poster attempts to bypass the filter using symbols, spacing, etc.

From AU's Rules and Guidelines:



> The use of profanity is prohibited. The board software includes a “bad word filter.” This filter finds any of a list words deemed offensive and replaces those words with asterisks. Attempts to intentionally bypass the filter through use of spacing, substitution of symbols for letters, intentional minor misspellings, or other filter bypass tricks will result in the post being removed.



http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum-13/announcement-9-amtrak-unlimited-rules-and-guidelines/

Thank you for your cooperation and thank you for staying on topic.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

districtRich said:


> I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals.


This goes back to the assumption that transportation and elaborate meals are a package deal and you can't have LD transportation without them. Anderson is trying to disprove that statement, at least on the CL and LSL. If RailwayAge is to be believed and Anderson is trying to slowly kill LD by driving away customers by "cheapening" the product, then if AU and RPA/NARP members actually boycott these trains because there's no steak and eggs then Anderson wins (ridership goes down, Anderson says no one rides them, and there's justification to get rid of them). But if you continue to ride the trains despite "sub-standard food", Anderson also wins because he's proven that you can have LD trains without hot food.

The latest RPA Hotline has more comments about this topic than I've ever seen from a Hotline before and of course this topic has 13 pages of comments. Maybe all this energy and resources can be better spent on saving the trains themselves (and starting some new ones or restarting some old ones) than the food on them.


----------



## Lonestar648

Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD. If everyone rides still, then Anderson wins by saying they will still ride even if we cut food service way back, because people accept what ever is put in front of them. Its a win/win for Anderson and lose/lose for those who ride the LD trains. Anderson's management probably isn't interested in ;looking at any comments sent their way unless they have to do with tweaking the new system.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Lonestar648 said:


> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.


Well it works on the portland section of the empire builder every single day. Now they do have you pick up breakfast in the ssl which gives the SCA a chance to make the beds.

Maybe this will have the added benefit of weeding out the lazy SCA's?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

SubwayNut said:


> I believe the cafe car on the Downeaster is run by a private catering company employee and not an Amtrak employee.


The Downeaster cafe car is not run by Amtrak employee. But it's also a state supported run, and the state chose to pay for their own service. This is similar to the hoosier state hiring iowa pacific for OBS, and North Carolina staffs their own stations.

As has already been mentioned the Downeaster doesn't make a profit on the cafe.


----------



## Lonestar648

crescent-zephyr said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it works on the portland section of the empire builder every single day. Now they do have you pick up breakfast in the ssl which gives the SCA a chance to make the beds.
> 
> Maybe this will have the added benefit of weeding out the lazy SCA's?
Click to expand...

The SCA needs the room occupants to be out of the room while they make up the beds, especially when they are changing them like on the CL and LSL. Maybe instead of room service, have the LSA have the breakfast freeing up the SCA like you said to work the rooms. I know the good SCA is working solid now in the mornings, so adding room service for every room if the car is sold out could be too much. Also, what is the LSA doing in the morning?


----------



## OBS

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard about this, what happened with that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once upon a time, trains that origin at Albany had food service. Amtrak cut the food service, but left the cars on the train. When the food service was cut a local Subway operator try to fill in for the lost of service, by selling product on the train. The union crew did not help, and basically blocked them from selling. Add in a few threats that were reported and the Subway operator end service within a week or so.
Click to expand...

Also need to include the facts that Subway didn't have liquor license immediately, thus no liquor sales, as well as fact that Amtrak discontinued service because of low demand. Demand didn't suddenly skyrocket just because Subway was there instead....


----------



## OBS

Lonestar648 said:


> On the issue of preparing food to order, remember that the most of the refrigerated/frozen food can NOT be taken back into stock because constant refrigerated temperatures can not be guaranteed, so all un served refrigerated food is trashed per USDA regulations. The hope is that with this new system there will be little or no waste.
> 
> The other cost savings with this change is the labor savings. To bring back hot meals I think you would need to increase your labor costs with adding a Food Specialist, and that I do not see happening. Depending on the per meal budget Amtrak is allocating, the vendor could be creative, so any tweaking would be with the meal itself. Appears breakfast needs to be rethought, like a cereal option.
> 
> People have been asking for a Sleeping Car lounge because the SSL gets so full at times.
> 
> I am sure this is an experiment to see how to roll it out across the country. They will learn lots, make changes, then roll out to a couple more trains like the SM, CONO, and/or TE.


This is not correct. All refrigerated items are issued from the commissary with a use by date. If items are still in date, they are reused and sent out on next train. Same with frozen items. The only things not saved are cooked items which are trashed after each meal service per FDA guidelines.


----------



## Lonestar648

I was told by a Chef on the TE that because the refrigerated items are loaded onto a cart in the heat of the summer, their temp could not be maintained or guaranteed, so they tried to use what ever frozen/refrigerated they could so it was not trashed when they git back to CHI..


----------



## Anderson

OBS said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the issue of preparing food to order, remember that the most of the refrigerated/frozen food can NOT be taken back into stock because constant refrigerated temperatures can not be guaranteed, so all un served refrigerated food is trashed per USDA regulations. The hope is that with this new system there will be little or no waste.
> 
> The other cost savings with this change is the labor savings. To bring back hot meals I think you would need to increase your labor costs with adding a Food Specialist, and that I do not see happening. Depending on the per meal budget Amtrak is allocating, the vendor could be creative, so any tweaking would be with the meal itself. Appears breakfast needs to be rethought, like a cereal option.
> 
> People have been asking for a Sleeping Car lounge because the SSL gets so full at times.
> 
> I am sure this is an experiment to see how to roll it out across the country. They will learn lots, make changes, then roll out to a couple more trains like the SM, CONO, and/or TE.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not correct. All refrigerated items are issued from the commissary with a use by date. If items are still in date, they are reused and sent out on next train. Same with frozen items. The only things not saved are cooked items which are trashed after each meal service per FDA guidelines.
Click to expand...

(1) You could probably replace the second lounge LSA with a food specialist of some sort. De-staffing (or partially de-staffing) one of the two cars and moving that person to enhance what you can do in the second car isn't an insane move (we've seen de-staffing done with some CCC/SSL situations).

(2) Breakfast is a problem. If the train is (roughly) on time WB, this isn't a problem (if the Cap is showing up in CHI at 0830, I'll just sleep until 0745 or 0800, decline the 'meal', and get something on arrival; TBH, if OTP wasn't at issue, providing a breakfast buffet in the Metropolitan Lounge would actually be an improvement...and it would probably shunt the cost from the F&B line to the lounge costs line, a line that Congress has not yet seen fit to mess with). EB is the problem, since the Cap gets into DC after noon while the LSL doesn't get into Manhattan until evening. That being said, breakfast needs work and even EB I'd probably be sleeping in and simply making lunch my first meal.

(2b) The proffered breakfast falls into the same bin as the sorts of 'meatless continental' breakfasts I've run into at more than a few hotels, and reminds me of a gripe with expense rules I've had for some time. A decent Dunkin Donuts-type sandwich (which, by the way, Delta/Delta Connection flights tend to offer on longer morning flights as one of the options) would be passable, but I'm _really_ not a pastry guy.


----------



## OBS

Lonestar648 said:


> I was told by a Chef on the TE that because the refrigerated items are loaded onto a cart in the heat of the summer, their temp could not be maintained or guaranteed, so they tried to use what ever frozen/refrigerated they could so it was not trashed when they git back to CHI..


Sounds good in theory and first half of statement has some truth. But food is not trashed AFAIK, unless left out for an unreasonably long time.

Ice Cream was always an exception. It never lasted being unloaded from the train....


----------



## cpotisch

SubwayNut said:


> I believe the cafe car on the Downeaster is run by a private catering company employee and not an Amtrak employee.


Pretty sure it's staffed by an Amtrak employee, but gets some pastries and snacks from local companies.


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: Apparently this thread has brought out a lot of emotions (and some profanity). Posts (and responses quoting those posts) will be hidden if an offensive word is used or if poster attempts to bypass the filter using symbols, spacing, etc.
> 
> From AU's Rules and Guidelines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The use of profanity is prohibited. The board software includes a “bad word filter.” This filter finds any of a list words deemed offensive and replaces those words with asterisks. Attempts to intentionally bypass the filter through use of spacing, substitution of symbols for letters, intentional minor misspellings, or other filter bypass tricks will result in the post being removed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum-13/announcement-9-amtrak-unlimited-rules-and-guidelines/
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation and thank you for staying on topic.
Click to expand...

How come there seemed to be multiple used of profanity here which didn't appear to try anything to bypass the filter, but still went through uncensored?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cpotisch said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the cafe car on the Downeaster is run by a private catering company employee and not an Amtrak employee.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure it's staffed by an Amtrak employee, but gets some pastries and snacks from local companies.
Click to expand...

When I last rode the Downeaster, the cafe car was not staffed by an Amtrak employee. I believe the state hires them? And it's way more than "some pastries and snacks" the entire menu is different with local sandwiches and even local chowder being offered.


----------



## PVD

Downeaster food service is provided and staffed by a contractor. It gets high marks from most involved, but it loses money, which the agency accepts as part of the overall business plan.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Downeaster food service is provided and staffed by a contractor. It gets high marks from most involved, but it loses money, which the agency accepts as part of the overall business plan.


Looking at the cafe menu now, it indeed shares pretty much nothing with the typical Amtrak cafe selection.


----------



## Skyline

Lonestar648 said:


> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.


I wonder what the unions have to say about all this? Predictably, job losses and doubling or tripling of workload for those who don't get fired. This is why unions came into existence in the first place.


----------



## fixj

Are we sure Anderson ran Delta and not TWA? That would explain alot.


----------



## cpotisch

Skyline said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the unions have to say about all this? Predictably, job losses and doubling or tripling of workload for those who don't get fired. This is why unions came into existence in the first place.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Now SCAs working with a full car, will have to deliver as much as 45 meals a day (15 rooms times three meals). That will leave a lot less time for passenger assistance (turning down beds, getting bottled water, etc.) while quite possibly overworking the attendant. Should be fun.


----------



## Rail Freak

That will definitely bring Union Issues!


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the unions have to say about all this? Predictably, job losses and doubling or tripling of workload for those who don't get fired. This is why unions came into existence in the first place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. Now SCAs working with a full car, will have to deliver as much as 45 meals a day (15 rooms times three meals). That will leave a lot less time for passenger assistance (turning down beds, getting bottled water, etc.) while quite possibly overworking the attendant. Should be fun.
Click to expand...

I believe I saw elsewhere Amtrak is adding an extra coach attendant and and extra SCA. My guess is that was the olive branch to the unions.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well, again, the unions have allows SCA's to have these responsibilities on the Empire Builder... Why anyone thinks this is some impossible feat is beyond me.

I, personally like the fact that Amtrak is making it clear that a sleeping car passenger can expect to be served in their room, at the time they want to be served within meal hours. While this was always the case, it wasn't advertised and it was certainly not encouraged by Amtrak staff.


----------



## Lonestar648

cpotisch said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the unions have to say about all this? Predictably, job losses and doubling or tripling of workload for those who don't get fired. This is why unions came into existence in the first place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. Now SCAs working with a full car, will have to deliver as much as 45 meals a day (15 rooms times three meals). That will leave a lot less time for passenger assistance (turning down beds, getting bottled water, etc.) while quite possibly overworking the attendant. Should be fun.
Click to expand...

There are 13 Revenue Roomettes, 5 Bedrooms, 1 H Room, and the Family Room or 20 rooms with a potential of 44 adults/children per meal equals 88 meals. If the SCA also has the 8 Roomettes in the TransDorm that makes 60 meals per meal or 120 on a sold out train. That is also 60 beds to change and remake each morning on a sell out.


----------



## jis

Why are we assuming that things will be significantly different from now in terms of the proportion of meals that will have to be delivered to rooms? Is it the theory that because there is no table wait service in the Lounge people will refuse to go to the Lounge for meals, and mingle with their fellow travelers?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Why are we assuming that things will be significantly different from now in terms of the proportion of meals that will have to be delivered to rooms? Is it the theory that because there is no table wait service in the Lounge people will refuse to go to the Lounge for meals, and mingle with their fellow travelers?


The Amtrak wording makes it sounds like all meals are supposed to be delivered to the room, and the passenger can decide to eat in the room or take it to the lounge where tables will be available first come first serve.

I would think that would increase the number of guests who choose to eat in their room.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what the unions have to say about all this? Predictably, job losses and doubling or tripling of workload for those who don't get fired. This is why unions came into existence in the first place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. Now SCAs working with a full car, will have to deliver as much as 45 meals a day (15 rooms times three meals). That will leave a lot less time for passenger assistance (turning down beds, getting bottled water, etc.) while quite possibly overworking the attendant. Should be fun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are 13 Revenue Roomettes, 5 Bedrooms, 1 H Room, and the Family Room or 20 rooms with a potential of 44 adults/children per meal equals 88 meals. If the SCA also has the 8 Roomettes in the TransDorm that makes 60 meals per meal or 120 on a sold out train. That is also 60 beds to change and remake each morning on a sell out.
Click to expand...

I was talking about Viewliners.


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we assuming that things will be significantly different from now in terms of the proportion of meals that will have to be delivered to rooms? Is it the theory that because there is no table wait service in the Lounge people will refuse to go to the Lounge for meals, and mingle with their fellow travelers?
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak wording makes it sounds like all meals are supposed to be delivered to the room, and the passenger can decide to eat in the room or take it to the lounge where tables will be available first come first serve.
> 
> I would think that would increase the number of guests who choose to eat in their room.
Click to expand...

The press release also says that they will be taking your prefered time to eat just as they do with dining car reservation now. From that, I take it the SCA's will spread out the meal delivery load vs getting slammed at once.


----------



## Ryan

Lonestar648 said:


> Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.


Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.


----------



## jis

Most of the discussion here is based on speculations based on assumptions that appear to many to be most consistent with the cryptic messages emanating from Amtrak. There really are very few "facts in evidence" if any, at this time. Definite facts in evidence are anger, resentment, disillusionment etc. But as for what this new Amtrak 2.0 food service is going to turn out to be, including the menus, I suppose we'ill need to wait and see.

Having said that, at this point I think it may be constructive to provide feedback to Amtrak on what we would like Amtrak 2.0 food service to look like. And probably saying "no change" is a feedback that will get ignored, so it is possibly pointless.

Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.


----------



## Maverickstation

Not having hot meal service on an overnight train, sucks, pure and simple, there is no justification for it.

Amtrak offers good "heat and eat" entree service on Acela First Class (which I use out of Boston), with one attendant (aside from the conductor)

handling what is often a sold out car by Providence.

These type of entrees should be offered on the LD trains that cover just one night.

Via Rail Business Class in their corridor offers meal service as well, but it is far more robust that Acela First Class not just in terms of

entree size, but they also serve snacks and drinks from the rolling carts, and real hot towel service.

Back the issue of 1 night LD trains, the catered service offered on The Ocean also fits the bill and delivers a good product.

On the Halifax bound trains they rotate between several caterers, and on the Montreal bound trains the Westin Hotel provides the catering.

The pictures are from a recent trip, the food is heated on board, as well as plated, and served by a wait staff in the diner.

The diner has one row of tables for 2, and one row of tables for 4.

The pictures is from The Ocean.


----------



## bretton88

The lack of heated meals is perhaps the most constructive feedback we can give Amtrak at this point. Just saying "we like it the way it was" isn't going to be heard, because changes *have* to be made. They have laid out a clear framework but they will listen to feedback on how to improve things within that framework. As I have said before, they are currently stripping it down to as minimum pain points as possible for staff to see if the concept works, then we will probably see "layers" added onto it, such as hot meals.


----------



## CraigDK

Ryan said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.
> 
> 
> 
> Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
Click to expand...

This is the internet, who needs facts?


----------



## IndyLions

I agree that this sucks, and I agree that we need to move on to some suggestions that could lead to improvements that still could fit within the framework of this program. The program is going to happen whether we like it or not (and we obviously don't).

I think most people seem to agree that making the diner available as a sleeper lounge for the duration of the trip is good. First thing we need to insist on - the lounge is *off limits as office space* for the conductors, etc. Those fine folks have plenty of other areas they are already using as office space. A ton is being taken away from the sleeping car passenger who is continuing to pay top dollar. Amtrak needs to make it clear that the sleeper lounge is NOT office space, and not a space for any Amtrak employee to spread out supplies. Use the closed off, empty unused kitchen for that.

Next, refine the meal delivery / eating plan. The first thing that should go is the silly notion that everyone's food should be delivered to their room. There are plenty of folks who NEED their food delivered for a variety of reasons including mobility - and there are also a number of people who look forward to escaping their room for meal time. Let us able-bodied who choose to pick up the food do so ourselves. We don't need the SCA to do that for us and become more overworked and grumpy than is often the case already.

The SCA should take everyone's order as they arrive - just as dinner reservations are typically taken today. Give passengers an order form, and explain the choices. The form specifies what the food choice for dinner and/or breakfast - along with where they want to eat it (room or lounge), and when they want each meal (among available time choices). In addition to the dinner/breakfast options - there should be fancy dessert and wine/cheese packages as well - available at alternative times (outside meal times) at an extra charge. We're already spending nearly a grand (or more) for an overnight for a couple - why not offer options (even at an added cost) that will make the experience more enjoyable?

For those who choose to eat in the lounge - there needs to be a designated pickup spot for their food. I don't care where that is - either the sleeper lounge or the regular lounge would both work just fine. During designated meal times, half the lounge would be reserved for passengers who chose to consume their meals there. The other half is always available for true lounge space.

Next - let's tweak just a little the options for breakfast and dinner. For breakfast, add a true traditional continental breakfast option - with a couple of choices of cold cereal and pastry, with some sort of fruit. Make the pastry a little unhealthy (cinnamon roll). There are enough healthy options on the menu - a lot of folks are on vacation and want to be a little bit bad. Also - why not make the same hot breakfast sandwich already available in the lounge one of the choices for breakfast?

For dinner, either add another salad option (maybe a fancy southwest salad or some sort of apple/cranberry/pecan salad) - and something more creative like cold fried chicken, baked beans/potato salad and fruit. Something you might eat at a picnic. Suggest a wine for each of the meal choices.

Lastly - the part that falls outside this program - ditch the booths in half the lounge. Turn half of it into a true lounge - with alternative seating (couches, chairs, etc.). Make the ambience as nice as possible. If the kitchen area is never going to be used to heat food - then do something different with it. Make it a bar area, or a refrigerated area for paid wine/snacks, or something. Maybe this falls under the "reinvesting part of the savings back in the program" side of things. Ultimately, I'd like to see this end up with a dedicated lounge attendant / bar tender - but that falls outside the current program I'm sure.

Ultimately, I want to see a return to hot food on even these 1 night routes. But if that's not going to happen, let's try to get at least a minimal program in place that sleeping car passengers can accept and get SOME value for. Part of the appeal of the Pacific Parlor Car when I took it years ago was the feeling of exclusivity. These new VII Diner / Sleeper Lounges are nice cars - take full advantage of that. I just don't see the current program (as they've previewed in their press release) as being attractive to most sleeping car passengers. Heck, my program might not be that attractive either - but I think it is t least a little better.


----------



## rrdude

AcrossTheOcean said:


> Looking at the pictures of the boxed meals, I think I am going to have to bring a lot of extra snacks when I ride the CL in late summer. There is no way the breakfast someone took a picture of will keep my bottomless pit of a 12 year-old from going hungry before 1 in the afternoon. Fortunately I have a few months to think about what to pack.
> 
> Do the diner cars have convection ovens? If so, it wouldn't be hard to do hot entrees the way that airlines do on long-haul flights. Have the entrees in single-serving foil containers in a convection oven, heat them up and put them on a tray with cold sides. If the city where the train departs has an airport with long-haul flights, there is also at least one airline caterer nearby that is used to that set-up.


The superliner dining cars, when first outfitted had complete commercial kitchens. Microwave ovens, convection oven’s, regular oven’s. Commercial dishwashers. Wow


----------



## Thirdrail7

CraigDK said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.
> 
> 
> 
> Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the internet, who needs facts?
Click to expand...


With all due respect, does anyone have any commitment from Mr. Anderson to preserving the LD network? I've asked this before and didn't get an answer. Are there any quotes from him regarding equipment for the LD network vs corridor trains? Has anyone heard plans for growth of the LD network? After all, cars on the LD trains have been removed over the last few years and there has been no attempt to lengthen them.

While the lack of policy or mention of the LD network doesn't mean he's actively attempting to kill it, there is nothing louder than a stony silence. Mr. Boardman has been gone for quite some time and Mr. Anderson has been on his own enough to make policies. The silence is deafening.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well... It seems to me that changing food service on a LD train is better than eliminating it like on the Silver Star.

That's certainly not a commitment to LD... But it's a tiny glimmer and honestly better than I was expecting.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> With all due respect, does anyone have any commitment from Mr. Anderson to preserving the LD network? I've asked this before and didn't get an answer. Are there any quotes from him regarding equipment for the LD network vs corridor trains? Has anyone heard plans for growth of the LD network? After all, cars on the LD trains have been removed over the last few years and there has been no attempt to lengthen them.
> 
> While the lack of policy or mention of the LD network doesn't mean he's actively attempting to kill it, there is nothing louder than a stony silence. Mr. Boardman has been gone for quite some time and Mr. Anderson has been on his own enough to make policies. The silence is deafening.


For what it's worth, I would object equally strenuously to someone saying that Anderson wants to increase LD service. The fact is, we know nothing.

Taking these changes as some kid of proof that he's ready to kill off the trains is just a bridge too far, particularly in the face of other more logical reasons, and the (granted, token) improvements that come along with this. If he were really serious about killing ridership, I don't think that we'd see a sleeping passenger lounge car or free drinks...


----------



## jis

As Sherlock Holmes pointed out to Watson - the fact that the dog did not bark is relevant.


----------



## PaulM

Thirdrail7 said:


> It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.
> 
> He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.


The talk about millennials reminds me of what I call the Boy Scout Syndrome. Back in the 60's the Boy Scout upper management decided that urban youths was where it's at. So they de-emphasized yokel type activities like hiking, camping, fishing, and swimming. It was a disaster. They alienated their existing base and were not able to interest urbanites as they had hoped. Then there was "new" coke.

I see frequent statistics on AU regarding the small number of "end to end" riders. I might even believe it if the term is taken literally. But what about Naperville to Richmond or Mendota to Fullerton. Not to mention Omaha to Salt Lake City or Topeka to Flagstaff. Plus a lot of city pair in between for which your millennial trains, new, fresh food ideas or not, would be useless (I assume we are talking about under 750 miles corridor trains). Besides, aren't corridor trains the responsibility of the states?

Once you get rid of my grandmother's (actually my) trains, all you have left is the NEC. I would hope that my and all flyover country senators and congressmen would take the attitude that if they are to support the NEC, then Amtrak can't take away their trains. Sure, the NEC may break even above the rails, whatever that means. But I seem to recall a lot of begging in order to fund replacement of the ancient infrastructure: tunnels, track realignment, wires, stations, etc.


----------



## TiBike

From reading the accounts of the recent California meeting, on this and other forums, Anderson didn't make any commitment or offer direct answers regarding long distance service. On the other hand, he put a high priority on improving less than 750-mile corridor service. A reasonable conclusion is that he wants more corridor trains and few long distance ones. Or at least shift resources in that direction.

Personally, I think that's fine. Providing better service to more people is a better use of taxpayer dollars and a better business strategy.

That said, I see the meal service changes on the Capitol Limited and LSL as service improvements, aimed at improving results on those trains. In another thread, it was said end-to-end (or near end-to-end) passengers accounted for 27.5% and 11.4%, respectively, of the trips on those two trains, higher than the 6% systemwide average Anderson cited. It's a fair guess that the profile of those end-to-end passengers is different, too. Maybe more business travellers, of the overnight big city to big city type Anderson referenced in Chicago last year?

Amtrak's current diner service is a product management and branding nightmare, particularly for the solo business traveller who wants to get some work done. Service is inconsistent, ranging from pleasant to actively hostile. Food quality is low at best, and you don't often see the best. The experience is miserable, ranging from a difficult and regimented reservation process to being forced to eat your meal crammed into a booth with three strangers who might not be your idea of congenial companions. If you want companions at all.

Nine trips out out of ten, I'm riding Amtrak for business travel. Granted, I don't do overnight trips for business – on the infrequent occasions I go to Seattle or Denver, I fly. But the new food service plan for the the CL and LSL is as attractive to me as the current system is repulsive. If Anderson is trying to kill those two trains, he's going about it in the wrong way. But I don't think he is.

As for the rest of the long distance system, if he can segment services so that there's two different and profitable business lines – limited land cruises and frequent corridor trains – he's making Amtrak viable for the long run. Which is what a CEO is supposed to do.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Most of the discussion here is based on speculations based on assumptions that appear to many to be most consistent with the cryptic messages emanating from Amtrak. There really are very few "facts in evidence" if any, at this time. Definite facts in evidence are anger, resentment, disillusionment etc. But as for what this new Amtrak 2.0 food service is going to turn out to be, including the menus, I suppose we'ill need to wait and see.
> 
> Having said that, at this point I think it may be constructive to provide feedback to Amtrak on what we would like Amtrak 2.0 food service to look like. And probably saying "no change" is a feedback that will get ignored, so it is possibly pointless.
> 
> Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.


Good idea constructive suggestions on how they could add to the new program is probably the best route. Speaking of which does Amtrak have a comment or a suggestion email type thing that anyone knows of?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ryan said:


> For what it's worth, I would object equally strenuously to someone saying that Anderson wants to increase LD service. The fact is, we know nothing.
> 
> Taking these changes as some kid of proof that he's ready to kill off the trains is just a bridge too far, particularly in the face of other more logical reasons, and the (granted, token) improvements that come along with this. If he were really serious about killing ridership, I don't think that we'd see a sleeping passenger lounge car or free drinks...


We know certain things:

Altering the dining car service impacts LD service. I didn't see any alterations to the Cafe car service on the corridor states...yet.

Altering the private car operation impacts LD service much more than corridor services.

There have been more cancellations of ENTIRE LD trains due to "projected" weather events for small parts of it. It snows in Montana and South Dakota. Get used to it.

The "First Class" refund/cancellation policy impacts the LD network far more than Corridor services.

The Amfleets are being overhauled. The Acela sets, which were refreshed less than 5 years ago are being refreshed again. How is the refresh going on the LD cars? (crickets)

The elimination of services at stations will have a bigger impact on LD trips as will the fees for baggage.

A case of soda (free sodas...I'll take that over a steak any day) is being used to justify the expense of a brand new car, that is being demoted to lounge service.

These are things that have occurred. We're not even discussing unpublished comments delivered at town hall meetings or quarterly business reports (since they can't be proven and things can change.)

Granted, I can say the charter guidelines will impact corridor service more than LD and the denial of the Downeaster extension impacts a state supported service partner. However, he has at least identified corridor growth as a priority.

It will be interesting to see how ridership shapes up. I'm sure the bad press from the accidents, weather and host interference will be the main reason listed for a dip in ridership but I suspect that the continued cuts in amenities will be a factor.

One only need to look at the Auto train over the last few years to see it.

Summer is approaching.


----------



## chrsjrcj

From RPA's Hotline on Friday:



> Amtrak’s idea to reduce service on certain national network overnight trains to less than daily service by expanding shorter segments with more than one round trip daily;


I read a _rumor _on another forum that one proposal was to make the Builder tri-weekly and increase frequencies between MSP and Chicago. Of course, with the <750 rule I suppose Amtrak would have to get Illinois or Minnesota (less likely Wisconsin) to play ball.


----------



## PVD

Apples and oranges. With the exception of the NEC, the other corridor services are significantly underwritten by states, and they have a say in the level of cafe car service.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PVD said:


> Apples and oranges. With the exception of the NEC, the other corridor services are significantly underwritten by states, and they have a say in the level of cafe car service.



Aaannd where do most of the trains in the country operate? If you recall, a previous administration recognized that fact and KILLED the cafes on the NEC trains that operated between NYP-WAS for that reason. Next, they removed one cafe for the longer corridor trains. As for state supported services, they pay a percentage of the costs for a train that operates off corridor FROM the corridor.

If the goal is to eliminate F&B losses, why isn't anyone attacking the corridor? Is it for the same reason they say "the corridor covers its costs?"

Heck, most of the major trains stations on the NEC have FOOD COURTS! If someone can travel from MIA-NYP with just a cafe, surely someone traveling between WAS-NYP can survive without a cafe.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

chrsjrcj said:


> From RPA's Hotline on Friday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtraks idea to reduce service on certain national network overnight trains to less than daily service by expanding shorter segments with more than one round trip daily;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read a _rumor _on another forum that one proposal was to make the Builder tri-weekly and increase frequencies between MSP and Chicago. Of course, with the <750 rule I suppose Amtrak would have to get Illinois or Minnesota (less likely Wisconsin) to play ball.
Click to expand...

That's my biggest fear... The return of the Tri-weekly. :-/


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Chey said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies, DA, it was callous of me and not a little hypocritical given my kvetching about cancellation penalties about a month ago. I understand that the constant changes are discouraging many who see most or all of them as downgrades. But I will be an Amtrak customer until the day they fold; it's the only form of travel I enjoy. So it's a bit hard for me to understand others who can tolerate other kinds of travel. It was an emotional response and I'm sorry it offended you.
Click to expand...

There’s no need to apologize but anyone who advocates giving Amtrak the benefit of the doubt owes the same benefit to those who criticize Amtrak.



jis said:


> Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.


Have any of my posts been directed at you specifically? If you feel you're in the crosshairs maybe you should stop volunteering as a deflection shield for others. Hard to find sympathy for those who throw themselves upon a grenade only to complain about the blast.


----------



## neroden

There is only one way to describe this:

Mr. Anderson is an idiot.

He's throwing away revenues faster than costs. Specifically on the LSL, where he has obviously never looked into the numbers.

Dumbass.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> Bob Dorsch via [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Capitol Limited and lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers __to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer_
> 
> WASHINGTON Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited_ trains starting June 1.
> 
> Sleeping car customers will choose meals *delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes* or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:
> 
> 
> Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
> Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.
> These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination,* eliminating on-board preparation*. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a *complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit*. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
> Our plan is to provide new and fresh food choices in a contemporary way for these overnight trains, said Bob Dorsch, Vice President of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line. Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient.
> 
> Dorsch said this enhancement will continue to be refined and we look forward to hearing from our customers.
> 
> The _Capitol Limited_ (Trains 29 & 30) operates daily between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, via Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The _Lake Shore Limited_ (Trains 48 & 49) typically operates daily between Chicago and New York, with a section to and from Boston (Trains 448 & 449).
> 
> 
> 
> Link: https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/
> 
> _Admin note:_
> 
> _The now closed topic "Chefs being removed off the Capitol Limited" can be found__ here_.
Click to expand...


To repeat: Anderson is an idiot.

They've just eliminated breakfast on the LSL. I'm actually allergic to their yogurt and I can't eat bread or fruit. I guess it's carry my own cooler from now on. Doesn't count against the carryon limit and I will tell them it's an ADA accomodation if they challenge me.

I think there may be some more certified mail coming his way soon.


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> “Destroy” is a bit over the top, I think. We’re talking about a sub-18 hour trip that you’re asleep for the majority of.


Destroy is exactly correct. There is no longer breakfast service on the LSL.

While I will bring my own cooler and acquire eggs and ice in Chicago, many people will simply fly.


----------



## neroden

PaulM said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.
> 
> He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.
> 
> 
> 
> The talk about millennials reminds me of what I call the Boy Scout Syndrome. Back in the 60's the Boy Scout upper management decided that urban youths was where it's at. So they de-emphasized yokel type activities like hiking, camping, fishing, and swimming. It was a disaster. They alienated their existing base and were not able to interest urbanites as they had hoped. Then there was "new" coke.
> 
> I see frequent statistics on AU regarding the small number of "end to end" riders. I might even believe it if the term is taken literally. But what about Naperville to Richmond or Mendota to Fullerton. Not to mention Omaha to Salt Lake City or Topeka to Flagstaff.
Click to expand...

Syracuse to Chicago. Rochester to Chicago. Buffalo to Chicago. Albany to Chicago.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> districtRich said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals.
> 
> 
> 
> This goes back to the assumption that transportation and elaborate meals are a package deal and you can't have LD transportation without them. Anderson is trying to disprove that statement, at least on the CL and LSL. If RailwayAge is to be believed and Anderson is trying to slowly kill LD by driving away customers by "cheapening" the product, then if AU and RPA/NARP members actually boycott these trains because there's no steak and eggs then Anderson wins (ridership goes down, Anderson says no one rides them, and there's justification to get rid of them). But if you continue to ride the trains despite "sub-standard food", Anderson also wins because he's proven that you can have LD trains without hot food.
> 
> The latest RPA Hotline has more comments about this topic than I've ever seen from a Hotline before and of course this topic has 13 pages of comments. Maybe all this energy and resources can be better spent on saving the trains themselves (and starting some new ones or restarting some old ones) than the food on them.
Click to expand...

Anderson's going to be mighty unhappy about the mess in the rooms. Might bring my own stove and use it.


----------



## neroden

Lonestar648 said:


> Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD. If everyone rides still, then Anderson wins by saying they will still ride even if we cut food service way back, because people accept what ever is put in front of them. Its a win/win for Anderson and lose/lose for those who ride the LD trains. Anderson's management probably isn't interested in ;looking at any comments sent their way unless they have to do with tweaking the new system.


Frankly, this is enough proof to me that Anderson doesn't know what he's doing. Sack him. If he'd come up with a reasonable selection for breakfast, like they have on the Downeaster... fine. But he didn't. This is just incompetence. He's not competent to run a train company.

Sure, I'll ride. But lots of people won't. He'll have to cut ticket prices to retain ridership. I'm sure many will be pleased by that, but it's a great way to hurt the bottom line.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the statute and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the statute. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.


Well, good work with the advocacy. But the fact is that this is simply going to increase the F&B losses.
Now there will be $0 transferred from the sleeper account to the dining car account, *and* all the cash sales in the dining car (about half of the sales on the LSL... less everywhere else) will go poof.

The LSL, the train with the *highest cash sales from coach* in the dining car as of the last published report, is quite definitely the *wrong* train to do this on if you want to balance the F&B account. In fact, this is going to blow a hole in the F&B account.

Maybe they'll only do this for the summer until they can run the LSL back to NY -- if they're not idiots.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> They won't, unless it reduces the net cost of operation. Come hell or high water they are out to reduce F&B losses.


Well, they seem to be deploying a solid plan to increase the F&B losses. I do wonder how they're going to do the accounting "transfers" from sleeper to dining car now. I'll make a point of refusing the food I can't eat -- do you think they're going to do a totally dishonest budget transfer from the sleeper line to the dining line for that food?


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> I agree that this sucks, and I agree that we need to move on to some suggestions that could lead to improvements that still could fit within the framework of this program. The program is going to happen whether we like it or not (and we obviously don't).
> 
> I think most people seem to agree that making the diner available as a sleeper lounge for the duration of the trip is good. First thing we need to insist on - the lounge is *off limits as office space* for the conductors, etc. Those fine folks have plenty of other areas they are already using as office space. A ton is being taken away from the sleeping car passenger who is continuing to pay top dollar. Amtrak needs to make it clear that the sleeper lounge is NOT office space, and not a space for any Amtrak employee to spread out supplies. Use the closed off, empty unused kitchen for that.
> 
> Next, refine the meal delivery / eating plan. The first thing that should go is the silly notion that everyone's food should be delivered to their room. There are plenty of folks who NEED their food delivered for a variety of reasons including mobility - and there are also a number of people who look forward to escaping their room for meal time. Let us able-bodied who choose to pick up the food do so ourselves. We don't need the SCA to do that for us and become more overworked and grumpy than is often the case already.
> 
> The SCA should take everyone's order as they arrive - just as dinner reservations are typically taken today. Give passengers an order form, and explain the choices. The form specifies what the food choice for dinner and/or breakfast - along with where they want to eat it (room or lounge), and when they want each meal (among available time choices). In addition to the dinner/breakfast options - there should be fancy dessert and wine/cheese packages as well - available at alternative times (outside meal times) at an extra charge. We're already spending nearly a grand (or more) for an overnight for a couple - why not offer options (even at an added cost) that will make the experience more enjoyable?
> 
> For those who choose to eat in the lounge - there needs to be a designated pickup spot for their food. I don't care where that is - either the sleeper lounge or the regular lounge would both work just fine. During designated meal times, half the lounge would be reserved for passengers who chose to consume their meals there. The other half is always available for true lounge space.
> 
> Next - let's tweak just a little the options for breakfast and dinner. For breakfast, add a true traditional continental breakfast option - with a couple of choices of cold cereal and pastry, with some sort of fruit. Make the pastry a little unhealthy (cinnamon roll). There are enough healthy options on the menu - a lot of folks are on vacation and want to be a little bit bad. Also - why not make the same hot breakfast sandwich already available in the lounge one of the choices for breakfast?
> 
> For dinner, either add another salad option (maybe a fancy southwest salad or some sort of apple/cranberry/pecan salad) - and something more creative like cold fried chicken, baked beans/potato salad and fruit. Something you might eat at a picnic. Suggest a wine for each of the meal choices.
> 
> Lastly - the part that falls outside this program - ditch the booths in half the lounge. Turn half of it into a true lounge - with alternative seating (couches, chairs, etc.). Make the ambience as nice as possible. If the kitchen area is never going to be used to heat food - then do something different with it. Make it a bar area, or a refrigerated area for paid wine/snacks, or something. Maybe this falls under the "reinvesting part of the savings back in the program" side of things. Ultimately, I'd like to see this end up with a dedicated lounge attendant / bar tender - but that falls outside the current program I'm sure.
> 
> Ultimately, I want to see a return to hot food on even these 1 night routes. But if that's not going to happen, let's try to get at least a minimal program in place that sleeping car passengers can accept and get SOME value for. Part of the appeal of the Pacific Parlor Car when I took it years ago was the feeling of exclusivity. These new VII Diner / Sleeper Lounges are nice cars - take full advantage of that. I just don't see the current program (as they've previewed in their press release) as being attractive to most sleeping car passengers. Heck, my program might not be that attractive either - but I think it is t least a little better.


This might be the best post I’ve ever seen. Agree 100% with literally everything you said.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Now is the time for all good train advocates to let their Congress Critters AND Amtrak know their thoughts and ideas on the upcoming and continuing changes @ Amtrak.

As was said, this sucks and I won't ride anymore unless things stay the same is NOT feedback that's helpful in the Executive Suite and on Capitol Hill!


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the *statute* and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the* statute*. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.
> 
> And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations *statutes*, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.


Does anyone have the statute(s) number(s) requiring Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B? In writing to my Reps, I would like to refer to a statute number (and I am a bit lazy right now and don't want to look it up). Thanks.


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the *statute* and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the* statute*. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.
> 
> And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations *statutes*, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the statute(s) number(s) requiring Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B? In writing to my Reps, I would like to refer to a statute number (and I am a bit lazy right now and don't want to look it up). Thanks.
Click to expand...

It's either statute 6-6-6 or statute 13-13-13.


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the *statute* and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the* statute*. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.
> 
> And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations *statutes*, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the statute(s) number(s) requiring Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B? In writing to my Reps, I would like to refer to a statute number (and I am a bit lazy right now and don't want to look it up). Thanks.
Click to expand...

My question was serious and it appears that no one immediately knew the answer, so I looked it up.

If my research is accurate, the statute is Title 49 USC Ch. 243, section 24321



> §24321. Food and beverage reform (a) Plan.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, Amtrak shall develop and begin implementing a plan to eliminate, within 5 years of such date of enactment, the operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on board Amtrak trains.
> 
> (b) Considerations.—In developing and implementing the plan, Amtrak shall consider a combination of cost management and revenue generation initiatives, including—
> 
> (1) scheduling optimization;
> 
> (2) on-board logistics;
> 
> (3) product development and supply chain efficiency;
> 
> (4) training, awards, and accountability;
> 
> (5) technology enhancements and process improvements; and
> 
> (6) ticket revenue allocation.
> 
> © Savings Clause.—Amtrak shall ensure that no Amtrak employee holding a position as of the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 is involuntarily separated because of—
> 
> (1) the development and implementation of the plan required under subsection (a); or
> 
> (2) any other action taken by Amtrak to implement this section.
> 
> (d) No Federal Funding for Operating Losses.—Beginning on the date that is 5 years after the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, no Federal funds may be used to cover any operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on a route operated by Amtrak or a rail carrier that operates a route in lieu of Amtrak pursuant to section 24711.


----------



## Thirdrail7

pennyk said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the *statute* and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the* statute*. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.
> 
> And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations *statutes*, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the statute(s) number(s) requiring Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B? In writing to my Reps, I would like to refer to a statute number (and I am a bit lazy right now and don't want to look it up). Thanks.
Click to expand...

I will quote from 2008's PRIIA update for 2014



> Over the years, Amtrak has operated under unrealistic fiscal expectations, and without a sufficient level of transparency.
> 
> While PRIIA 2008 has taken some initial steps to improve Amtrak’s financial condition, much more is required to
> 
> achieve greater cost efficiencies and savings in passenger rail service, provide greater transparency at Amtrak, and
> 
> ensure that the service operates like a true business. Specifically, PRRIA 2014:
> 
> Reduces Amtrak’s authorized funding levels by 40 percent: Fiscal responsibility is a top priority. For decades,
> 
> authorization bills have included unrealistic funding levels. PRRIA 2014 breaks this cycle by authorizing Amtrak at
> 
> fiscally responsible, recently appropriated funding levels. This requires Amtrak to plan based on real, constrained
> 
> funding levels — not overly optimistic targets that will never materialize.
> 
> *Eliminates Amtrak’s losses in food and beverage service: For years, Amtrak has operated its food and beverage*
> 
> service at a loss, ignoring mandates that this service must break even. PRRIA 2014 finally tackles this problem
> 
> head-on by requiring that Amtrak implement a series of reforms that will reduce losses and grow revenue to
> 
> eliminate this loss in five years. The bill will accomplish this by requiring:
> 
> • Improved product and supply chain efficiencies
> 
> • Strengthened training and accountability for staff
> 
> • Improving scheduling of food and beverage staff
> 
> • Ticket revenue enhancements


Additionally, the FAST act of 2015 indicated that Amtrak must reduce its lost and appropriated funds may not be used to offset food and beverages losses. It is a huge file so I will present the relevant portion:



> SEC. 11207. FOOD AND BEVERAGE REFORM.
> 
> (a) AMENDMENT.—Chapter 243 of title 49, United States Code,
> 
> is further amended by adding at the end the following new section:
> 
> ‘*‘§ 24321. Food and beverage reform*
> 
> ‘‘(a) PLAN.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment
> 
> of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, Amtrak
> 
> shall develop and begin implementing a plan to eliminate, within
> 
> 5 years of such date of enactment, the operating loss associated
> 
> with providing food and beverage service on board Amtrak trains.
> 
> ‘‘(b) CONSIDERATIONS.—In developing and implementing the
> 
> plan, Amtrak shall consider a combination of cost management
> 
> and revenue generation initiatives, including—
> 
> ‘‘(1) scheduling optimization;
> 
> ‘‘(2) on-board logistics;
> 
> ‘‘(3) product development and supply chain efficiency;
> 
> ‘‘(4) training, awards, and accountability;
> 
> ‘‘(5) technology enhancements and process improvements;
> 
> and
> 
> ‘‘(6) ticket revenue allocation.
> 
> ‘‘© SAVINGS CLAUSE.—Amtrak shall ensure that no Amtrak
> 
> employee holding a position as of the date of enactment of the
> 
> Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 is involuntarily
> 
> separated because of—
> 
> PUBLIC LAW 114–94—DEC. 4, 2015 129 STAT. 1639
> 
> ‘‘(1) the development and implementation of the plan
> 
> required under subsection (a); or
> 
> ‘‘(2) any other action taken by Amtrak to implement this
> 
> section.
> 
> ‘‘(d) NO FEDERAL FUNDING FOR OPERATING LOSSES.—Beginning
> 
> on the date that is 5 years after the date of enactment of the
> 
> Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, no Federal
> 
> funds may be used to cover any operating loss associated with
> 
> providing food and beverage service on a route operated by Amtrak
> 
> or a rail carrier that operates a route in lieu of Amtrak pursuant
> 
> to section 24711.
> 
> ‘‘(e) REPORT.—Not later than 120 days after the date of enactment
> 
> of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015,
> 
> and annually thereafter for 5 years, Amtrak shall transmit to
> 
> the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House
> 
> of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and
> 
> Transportation of the Senate a report containing the plan developed
> 
> pursuant to subsection (a) and a description of progress in the
> 
> implementation of the plan.’’.
> 
> (b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—The table of sections for chapter
> 
> 243 of title 49, United States Code, is further amended by adding
> 
> at the end the following new item:
> 
> ‘‘24321. Food and beverage reform.’’.


This law was passed in 2015 and it is 2018. They have two years to comply with this law as written.


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The groundwork for all this F&B downgrade was laid in the authorization bill that required Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B as a separate line item, as absurd requirement in and of itself. That is currently the *statute* and as Anderson said, right or wrong, he will deliver per the* statute*. One obvious way, and the only fully legal way, to fix this is to change the statute. We have started the discussion going on how and when to change the statute, at the RPA Meeting this week, and with Senators and Reps on the Hill too.
> 
> And before anyone jumps up and says that Anderson should ignore the statutes selectively, be careful what you wish for. Currently, there is a significant possibility that the current administration will simply ignore the appropriations *statutes*, and simply not spend the money that has been appropriated by withholding its disbursement using one excuse or the other, even though that would certainly be against the spirit if not the letter of the law.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the statute(s) number(s) requiring Amtrak to balance the budget of F&B? In writing to my Reps, I would like to refer to a statute number (and I am a bit lazy right now and don't want to look it up). Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My question was serious and it appears that no one immediately knew the answer, so I looked it up.
> 
> If my research is accurate, the statute is Title 49 USC Ch. 243, section 24321
> 
> 
> 
> 
> §24321. Food and beverage reform
> 
> (a) Plan.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, Amtrak shall develop and begin implementing a plan to eliminate, within 5 years of such date of enactment, the operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on board Amtrak trains.
> 
> (b) Considerations.—In developing and implementing the plan, Amtrak shall consider a combination of cost management and revenue generation initiatives, including—
> 
> (1) scheduling optimization;
> 
> (2) on-board logistics;
> 
> (3) product development and supply chain efficiency;
> 
> (4) training, awards, and accountability;
> 
> (5) technology enhancements and process improvements; and
> 
> (6) ticket revenue allocation.
> 
> (c ) Savings Clause.—Amtrak shall ensure that no Amtrak employee holding a position as of the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 is involuntarily separated because of—
> 
> (1) the development and implementation of the plan required under subsection (a); or
> 
> (2) any other action taken by Amtrak to implement this section.
> 
> (d) No Federal Funding for Operating Losses.—Beginning on the date that is 5 years after the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, no Federal funds may be used to cover any operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on a route operated by Amtrak or a rail carrier that operates a route in lieu of Amtrak pursuant to section 24711.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. Where'd you find that? I looked up 'Amtrak 2018 Food and Beverage Statute' and a million other similar things, but couldn't find information anywhere.


----------



## Thirdrail7

It wasn't really hard, Cpotish. While I knew it was part of the Fact Act and PRiia (although I wasn't sure which version) even googling Amtrak Food and Beverages Losses Law brings up the post PennyK found, which is the Cliff Notes version:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/24321

As I previously stated, this law was passed in 2015. It is 2018. 3 years down and 2 years to go.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

And the previous attempts at following that law were the current situation on the city of New Orleans (which can't be any better than these boxes meals will be.. And at least they will be able to be served to your room in a timely manner), eliminating the diner on the star, and eliminating the seperate cafe LSA on the city and the capitol.

Seems to me if they would just learn how to properly UPSELL premium drinks that would help the bottom line real fast. Knowledge of the wine menu, properly advertising mixed drinks, and offering premium breakfast drinks (Bloody Mary, Mimosa, espresso) would help a lot. Maybe that's what the LSA in the sleeper lounge is for? We shall see.


----------



## bretton88

To note in that same legislation, Amtrak is "to run like a business." So when Anderson says he is just following the law, he is not wrong. This is the wonderful world of congressional micromanagement. Since Amtrak is seen as a bit of a luxury discretionary item, in order to obtain new and greater funding the best course of action is to show that you are complying with the laws and trying to be a good use of existing funding. Now maybe it won't work, but it's certainly better than ignoring congress (which both PRIAA and FAST mention Amtrak of being guilty).


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seems to me if they would just learn how to properly UPSELL premium drinks that would help the bottom line real fast. Knowledge of the wine menu, properly advertising mixed drinks, and offering premium breakfast drinks (Bloody Mary, Mimosa, espresso) would help a lot. Maybe that's what the LSA in the sleeper lounge is for? We shall see.


On some of the menus a few years ago, Amtrak was really pushing the wine. I forget the exact wording but the menus would say stuff like:


_"We recommend this entree with one of our fine vineyard selections"_
_"Enjoying this salmon with our chilled Pinot Grigio, __which__ compliments it beautifully."_

Beautiful words from a train company describing its mediocre food served in a 60 year old train car.


----------



## TinCan782

So now, what happens to the _Amtrak Culinary Advisory Team_? Will they be coming up with "Fresh Choices"?

Never mattered to me looking at the menu as long as what sounded good (the description), matched what was put on the table.

http://blog.amtrak.com/2017/01/bringing-innovation-to-the-table/


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## scoostraw

At least Amtrak could have been honest in their rollout of this new "service". Something along the lines of "As a federally subsidized transportation service, we have been directed by congress to eliminate food and beverage economic losses. As such, this summer we are eliminating the dining cars from these trains. While Amtrak continues to strive to meet the needs of our passengers, we hope you will all help us understand your needs by means of expressing your feedback to us directly and/or to your congressional representatives."

This "Fresh Choices" nonsense smacks of the kind of crap I have come to thoroughly despise about modern corporate America. Everything is highly spun up and you have to parse every sentence - plus see what has been omitted - to tease out what is actually being said.

Myself I am in favor of having food vendors meet Amtrak trains at designated stops enroute - just like they do in other 3rd-world countries.


----------



## spinnaker

Why not just charge an extra $20 or $30 if you want a hot meal? I am paying an extra $60 for my bicycle for 3 legs of a trip this year. I can actually ship it $2 cheaper using a bike shipping service but I like the convenience of having my bike with me before and at the end each leg. Plus I have a ride home right from the station when I get to Pittsburgh. I really don't mind paying the extra $60 (actually only extra $2) to not have to pack it up and to have the bike along the whole way.

For what I am already paying for a roomette, I don't mind paying an extra $20, $30 a day to get a decent meal. A hot meal could be optional. They already have their website setup to charge extra for bikes. It would not surprise me if an extra cost plus item like hot meals could be added with a simple configuration change. I wouldn't mind making a menu choice ahead of time , if it meant a cost savings. It would be nice if you can change you mind up to say a week ahead but when making the reservation would be fine too.


----------



## spinnaker

I guess the problem with my idea is there would still be the cost of the dining car. Amtrak would need to see if there are enough people taking the option to cover the cost. OK then, just don't make it an option. Raise the price of the ticket. I would be most people willing to pay for a roomette aren't going let $50 - $100 cause them not to ride. Lack of a hot meal might though.

I can get home a whole lot cheaper flying but I consider the train ride back home a part of my vacation. When you consider the price of rooms and meals in a hotel, the train is actually a pretty darn good deal. A hotel room might be more comfortable but I would like to see you move it at 80 MPH.




And a roomette is more comfortable than firts class seats on a plane light years more comfortable than coach.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Hot meals and the full dining car experience are 2 different things.

If they are keeping the full physical dining car, the potential for adding back hot meals is there.

How did the "at your seat" coach meals do? Couldn't the coach attrndants offer these to coach passengers?

How do the "big sky chicken dinners," served cold, do on the empire builder? They've been around for 20 years and have always sold despite the full dining car being on the train. So right there is proof that some coach passengers would rather buy a cold boxed meal than pay for a dining car experience.


----------



## scoostraw

crescent-zephyr said:


> If they are keeping the full physical dining car, the potential for adding back hot meals is there.


I would not expect the dining cars being in the consist to last very long at all.


----------



## Ryan

Given that it's already been said that they're using ViewDiners are The Sleeper Lounge, your expectations are not aligned with reality.


----------



## scoostraw

I can see the press release now.

"The sleeper lounges were under-utilized and thus have been removed."


----------



## jis

Redacted.

Mods: my administravia related post (and response to it) can be hidden away as they do not add to the discussion of the main subject of the thread


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Is it perhaps time to move this geeky "How to" stuff for the website to an appropriate other thread, since this has nothing to do with "Amtrak's new Fresh Choice"?
> 
> I admit that I am guilty of participating in this myself.


We have attempted to move all such posts to the Help Desk Forum thread "Editing quoted text?"

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum/4-help-desk-and-suggestion-box/


----------



## railbuck

neroden said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> “Destroy” is a bit over the top, I think. We’re talking about a sub-18 hour trip that you’re asleep for the majority of.
> 
> 
> 
> Destroy is exactly correct. There is no longer breakfast service on the LSL.
> 
> While I will bring my own cooler and acquire eggs and ice in Chicago, many people will simply fly.
Click to expand...

In my case, west of Toledo, flying to Chicago would be inefficient; the choice is between Amtrak and driving. I was looking forward to the VL2 on the LSL; board at breakfast time, eat an omelet and visit with other passengers in the ambience of the new dining car while riding across northern Indiana.

Now that it will be a sleeper lounge, I won't even have access to the car, food or no food.


----------



## CHvision

So, Will the Capitol Limited not have the Cross-country diner starting June 1st?


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> So, Will the Capitol Limited not have the Cross-country diner starting June 1st?


Aren't they expected to use the CCC as the sleeper lounge?


----------



## tommylicious

I pass gas on this entire notion. Basically changing LD food to a crappy sack lunch.


----------



## Lonestar648

I think they need the dining cars for cold storage of the meals, so why not use the cars as a lounge, sell some drinks to see if that revenue covers the LSA cost.


----------



## cpotisch

Is there any real reason why they're not heating up any in a microwave or convection oven? Because that would be pretty minimal added work, but with quite a significant benefit of being able to advertise "hot meals". Even if the quality of the food stays pretty much the same, many people will immediately imagine a better product if it's warmed up.


----------



## Lonestar648

The SCA doesn't have the time to do meal prep like with hot meals and still handle the demands in the Sleeping Car.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> The SCA doesn't have the time to do meal prep like with hot meals and still handle the demands in the Sleeping Car.


Sleeper Lounge LSA, though?


----------



## PaulM

Did anyone spot this?

=========================================================

© Savings Clause.Amtrak shall ensure that no Amtrak employee holding a position as of the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 is involuntarily separated because of

(1) the development and implementation of the plan required under subsection (a); or

(2) any other action taken by Amtrak to implement this section.

============================================================================

I thought it was AU wisdom that labor costs are what kills dining cars? How can you become profitable if you can't go after your cost driver? It's not like there are expanding opportunities for diisplaced chefs and wait staff.

elsewhere in the system.

Similarly, there has been a lot of talk about the inventory management problems stocking dining cars, waste etc. How will this help? You are replacing raw materials, a lot of which should have a shelf life greater than one trip, with finished goods that can't be saved. The information available to the inventory managers will remain the same, namely the manifest. If the dining cars frequently ran out of an item the first day oput, why would the new system be any diferent?


----------



## Palmetto

Who keeps track of who's had the one, free alcoholic drink?


----------



## scoostraw

Lonestar648 said:


> I think they need the dining cars for cold storage of the meals, so why not use the cars as a lounge, sell some drinks to see if that revenue covers the LSA cost.


I think what will happen ultimately is that there will be only one car. Maybe the Viewliner diner is reconfigured and becomes a cafe car for everyone - including serving limited hot food. Sleeping car pax will have meals delivered to their rooms.

I think this "sleeping car lounge" idea came into being only because there is not enough time in the short term to reconfigure the diners.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cpotisch said:


> Is there any real reason why they're not heating up any in a microwave or convection oven? Because that would be pretty minimal added work, but with quite a significant benefit of being able to advertise "hot meals". Even if the quality of the food stays pretty much the same, many people will immediately imagine a better product if it's warmed up.


I mentioned earlier.... This is a major change and needs to be rolled out as simple as possible. Once things get settled in, perhaps hot meals like the Acela meals can be added.

For reference: when "simplified dining" started they eliminated dining car positions and went down to 1 chef. No cooked to order items remained. No steak at dinner, and the previously availble "eggs cooked any way" was replaced by a pre-packaged "Bob evans breakfast scramble" after some time, it was decided the 1 chef could handle more and steak was added back at dinner and scrambled eggs at breakfast.


----------



## AcrossTheOcean

spinnaker said:


> Why not just charge an extra $20 or $30 if you want a hot meal? I am paying an extra $60 for my bicycle for 3 legs of a trip this year. I can actually ship it $2 cheaper using a bike shipping service but I like the convenience of having my bike with me before and at the end each leg. Plus I have a ride home right from the station when I get to Pittsburgh. I really don't mind paying the extra $60 (actually only extra $2) to not have to pack it up and to have the bike along the whole way.
> 
> For what I am already paying for a roomette, I don't mind paying an extra $20, $30 a day to get a decent meal. A hot meal could be optional. They already have their website setup to charge extra for bikes. It would not surprise me if an extra cost plus item like hot meals could be added with a simple configuration change. I wouldn't mind making a menu choice ahead of time , if it meant a cost savings. It would be nice if you can change you mind up to say a week ahead but when making the reservation would be fine too.


If you paid for a roomette before the change was announced, you already paid for a "decent meal." To my knowledge, Amtrak is not reducing the cost of a roomette or giving refunds to those who purchased a sleeper fare but won't receive the "decent meal" that was adertisedd to be included in the cost. If they did and allowed people to purchase it as an add-on, it would be a different story.

When airlines make changes in service, like if they start charging for checked luggage, it goes by the date that the passenger purchased the ticket, not the date the passenger flies. There is a transition period during which some passengers have to pay for their checked luggage and others don't. However, this strategy doesn't make sense for on-board services, so there should have been much more lead time on the change in food provided.

I guess my biggest complaint is the suggested breakfast doesn't sound filling enough to count as "brunch" on the CL heading toward WAS. Will they have boxed lunches available if the train is late, or will the SCAs just have to deal with the hangry passengers? I worry the change in food provided will come as a surprise to many of this summer's sleeping car passengers who bought their tickets months ago.


----------



## jebr

Off-topic posts have been hidden. Discussion of the RailPAC memo can be discussed here.


----------



## jis

AcrossTheOcean said:


> If you paid for a roomette before the change was announced, you already paid for a "decent meal." To my knowledge, Amtrak is not reducing the cost of a roomette or giving refunds to those who purchased a sleeper fare but won't receive the "decent meal" that was adertisedd to be included in the cost. If they did and allowed people to purchase it as an add-on, it would be a different story.


Let me start by stating up front that I do not support the proposed changes, and indeed I would like to see at least some significant changes made to the food that is offered.

Having said that, can you point to a single piece of advertisement that mentions "decent meal"? I can't find such. The contract is just for the travel part, and for Sleepers "complementary meals". You could find what menus were on offer on a given day. But there was nothing that suggested that the same menu would be offered six months hence.


----------



## Skyline

jis said:


> AcrossTheOcean said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you paid for a roomette before the change was announced, you already paid for a "decent meal." To my knowledge, Amtrak is not reducing the cost of a roomette or giving refunds to those who purchased a sleeper fare but won't receive the "decent meal" that was adertisedd to be included in the cost. If they did and allowed people to purchase it as an add-on, it would be a different story.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me start by stating up front that I do not support the proposed changes, and indeed I would like to see at least some significant changes made to the food that is offered.
> 
> Having said that, can you point to a single piece of advertisement that mentions "decent meal"? I can't find such. The contract is just for the travel part, and for Sleepers "complementary meals". You could find what menus were on offer on a given day. But there was nothing that suggested that the same menu would be offered six months hence.
Click to expand...

Seriously? You don't think passengers expect meal service to be as good as, if not better than, what they've experienced in the past? What RR tradition has been for longer than they've been alive? That they should be willing to accept this downgrade without a price adjustment for tickets already purchased based on an assumption of something better than a poor stab at continental breakfast?

Pax seem to understand when a diner is bad-ordered and meals consisting of hard boiled eggs and breakfast sandwiches are on-loaded at a stop -- so no one starves. But this is intentional, and there needs to be more consideration given the pax. This is breach of contract, despite the mumbo jumbo of attorneys.

When sleeper prices went thru the roof in the '90s and '00s, we were told that the cost of providing good meals and full dining service was a big part of it. Now, sleeper prices are staying the same (could go up further in months/years ahead), and that full dining service and decent food is being trashed. Seriously, I expect SP-style automats to be next, with no price reduction for sleepers.


----------



## jis

There is a huge difference between being a decent organization and one that carries on barely covering their legal rear ends. Amtrak is currently sitting in the latter category, and my question was to try to verify whether they are able to do that or not, given what they have really said in their blurbs and contract of carriage. At least I am not suggesting that Amtrak is being a decent organization by any means at the present time.


----------



## PVD

What you might reasonably expect based on past experience, and what forms a legal basis for a breach of contract, may be worlds apart.


----------



## crescent2

I only drop in and out here, and may have missed some pertinent things along the way.

However--

If I understand correctly, although at present this involves only two trains, isn't this a terrible waste of the new dining cars, which took forever to get, to now let the kitchens sit unused? It would seem that a good business model would make better use of brand new, expensive equipment. Perhaps with hindsight the money would not have been spent on buying them, but the fact is it was, and now Amtrak has them. Surely they can be better utilized. With Amtrak's perpetual shortage of funds, this is no minor thing.

If I were in Congress, I'd be even more hesitant to provide additional funds in the future if I thought they might be spent on equipment that, once delivered, would never be fully put to use. That's wasteful in anyone's book.

This just makes Amtrak management look incompetent and irresponsible with resources, which Amtrak surely does not need when begging for funds. Just because they received better funding this go-around doesn't mean they will in the future.

Plus, people do have to eat during multi-day periods of time, but they already knew that when the dining cars were ordered.

My two cents, which may be about what it's worth.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent2 said:


> I only drop in and out here, and may have missed some pertinent things along the way.
> 
> However--
> 
> If I understand correctly, although at present this involves only two trains, isn't this a terrible waste of the new dining cars, which took forever to get, to now let the kitchens sit unused? It would seem that a good business model would make better use of brand new, expensive equipment. Perhaps with hindsight the money would not have been spent on buying them, but the fact is it was, and now Amtrak has them. Surely they can be better utilized. With Amtrak's perpetual shortage of funds, this is no minor thing.
> 
> If I were in Congress, I'd be even more hesitant to provide additional funds in the future if I thought they might be spent on equipment that, once delivered, would never be fully put to use. That's wasteful in anyone's book.
> 
> This just makes Amtrak management look incompetent and irresponsible with resources, which Amtrak surely does not need when begging for funds. Just because they received better funding this go-around doesn't mean they will in the future.
> 
> Plus, people do have to eat during multi-day periods of time, but they already knew that when the dining cars were ordered.
> 
> My two cents, which may be about what it's worth.


And my thinking is it would be a bigger waste of the diners if Amtrak goes under because of lack of funds and/or because they did not meet the mandate to get rid of F&B losses.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent2 said:


> If I understand correctly, although at present this involves only two trains, isn't this a terrible waste of the new dining cars, which took forever to get, to now let the kitchens sit unused?


The Capitol Limited is Superliner, so the LSL is the only train that will be "wasting" ViewDiners. And since there are only three LSL consists, there are only three affected diners. In the grand scheme of things, that's not _that_ much of a waste.


----------



## rrdude

I think "under-utilized" is a better description. If they sat unused, that would be a waste. I can see taking out about four 4-tops, and putting in some lounge style seating. God knows the LSA is gonna have all the room they need to spread out... And I would hope, after the initial public reactions, they will consider utilizing the convection ovens or micro-zappers, for some new, as of yet unknown, hot entree choice, even with one LSA.


----------



## crescent2

"And my thinking is it would be a bigger waste of the diners if Amtrak goes under because of lack of funds and/or because they did not meet the mandate to get rid of F&B losses."

That would be true if that were the only alternative, but I think it's debatable that the present course is one that is likely to "save" Amtrak.

If what several others have posted is accurate, it does not address the largest cost factor (employees/wages), and the inner workings re food revenue aren't good on paper. Add to that the dissatisfaction of passengers with the skimpy food and the wastefulness (more importantly at this point, the appearance of it) of the poor utilization of the new equipment. All the little parts added together just don't seem to be a good solution. Not that I'm an expert on running a railroad, LOL. I'll leave that to you folks.

It just seems there should be a better way, now that Amtrak is getting much better equipment, and I guess that was my underlying point.

Edit (to mostly agree with new posts seen later): Yes, I said that at present it only affects two (correction, one) train. As has been pointed out by others, though, there seems to be a trend to do away with full dining service. Other trains have already been affected. I hope it stops with the two trains discussed in this thread and the remaining trains with full dining cars and service stay that way.

As for "under utilization," I totally agree. That's why I said "kitchens sit unused," "better utilized," and "better used." I understand the cars would still be in the consists, only used as sleeper lounges. The not-inexpensive kitchen sections wouldn't be utilized, though.

I admittedly hate to see the full dining service go on any trains. It's such a nice (and, imo, needed) part of LD train travel. That said, I do still hope a better business solution can be found.


----------



## jebr

crescent2 said:


> it does not address the largest cost factor (employees/wages)


From my understanding, it does address that cost factor by eliminating most of the diner positions. Instead of having 4-5 staff members running diner service, there's one staff member attending the lounge and prepping the meals (whatever prep is needed for that.) I thought I heard they were also adding a sleeper attendant as well, but that might be mixed up in my brain with the staff member for the sleeper lounge. Eliminating 3-4 positions per train does quite a bit to help with labor costs, though it's not a good situation if those employees can't be placed elsewhere in the system.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I havent seen anywhere that a sleeper attendant would be added. But anything is possible I suppose.


----------



## bretton88

I've heard they're adding a sleeper attendant and a coach attendant, that's probably how they get around the union issues.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

bretton88 said:


> I've heard they're adding a sleeper attendant and a coach attendant, that's probably how they get around the union issues.


Interesting. Where did you hear that?

If they are adding a coach attendant... It would seem they would want to add more responsibilites... Such as... Food and beverage service. Which should have already been part of the coach attendants job.


----------



## Ryan

Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.

Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.
> 
> Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.


It also gets around the PRIIA stricture about not causing anyone to lose jobs while getting F&B account to balance.


----------



## AcrossTheOcean

jis said:


> Let me start by stating up front that I do not support the proposed changes, and indeed I would like to see at least some significant changes made to the food that is offered.
> 
> Having said that, can you point to a single piece of advertisement that mentions "decent meal"? I can't find such. The contract is just for the travel part, and for Sleepers "complementary meals". You could find what menus were on offer on a given day. But there was nothing that suggested that the same menu would be offered six months hence.


There wasn't anything to suggest that the menu would be drastically changed, either. Not to the "Fresh Choices" options, but not a move to offer only pasta and Chineese food, either.

Unfortunately, the menu change does affect me and my family directly. Last month I booked our very first trip on Amtrak for late August on the CL. I was kind of looking forward to the full breakfast in the dining car experience. I am disappointed, but I am not really angry. The scenery out the window of the BordBistro on the ICE in Germany goes by faster than it does on an LD train in the US.

My main concern is keeping my family from getting hangry, especially if the CL is late getting into WAS. Knowing that both breakfast and lunch would replace the Brunch currently offered on the CL would go a long way to alleviate that. I do suggest that Amtrak take that into consideration. Passengers who are grumpy because they didn't get enough to eat are probably less likely to tip the SCA well, even if it isn't the SCA's fault.

As it is, I have a few months to figure out what to pack to augment breakfast. I am tempted to buy a couple dozen donuts (many more than my family would eat) and pass them around the Sleeping Car Lounge to anyone else who needs a little more breakfast. That should involve less mess than bringing and using a toaster in my roomette and washing dishes in a bathroom.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent2 said:


> "And my thinking is it would be a bigger waste of the diners if Amtrak goes under because of lack of funds and/or because they did not meet the mandate to get rid of F&B losses."
> 
> That would be true if that were the only alternative, but I think it's debatable that the present course is one that is likely to "save" Amtrak.
> 
> If what several others have posted is accurate, it does not address the largest cost factor (employees/wages), and the inner workings re food revenue aren't good on paper. Add to that the dissatisfaction of passengers with the skimpy food and the wastefulness (more importantly at this point, the appearance of it) of the poor utilization of the new equipment. All the little parts added together just don't seem to be a good solution. Not that I'm an expert on running a railroad, LOL. I'll leave that to you folks.
> 
> It just seems there should be a better way, now that Amtrak is getting much better equipment, and I guess that was my underlying point.
> 
> Edit (to mostly agree with new posts seen later): Yes, I said that at present it only affects two (correction, one) train. As has been pointed out by others, though, there seems to be a trend to do away with full dining service. Other trains have already been affected. I hope it stops with the two trains discussed in this thread and the remaining trains with full dining cars and service stay that way.
> 
> As for "under utilization," I totally agree. That's why I said "kitchens sit unused," "better utilized," and "better used." I understand the cars would still be in the consists, only used as sleeper lounges. The not-inexpensive kitchen sections wouldn't be utilized, though.
> 
> I admittedly hate to see the full dining service go on any trains. It's such a nice (and, imo, needed) part of LD train travel. That said, I do still hope a better business solution can be found.


Keep in mind the kitchens may not go totally unused - the cars will be interchangeable with the Meteor and Crescent which, at the moment, still have full Diners and they do rotate the cars around do they not? And I could see where they may try to keep the full diner on the Meteor in the long run with its larger percentage of overnight travellers (Northeast to Florida.) Additionally you never know how they may tweak the program down the road - if enough people say they want hot meals there's a chance they may be re-introduced in a different form and you'd want the kitchen there to have the flexibility down the road if they can figure out a way to do it without breaking the bank (or if the F&B mandate is relaxed.) I doubt you'll ever see the old fasioned diner again with table service, but maybe a fast food style hot meal where you order with the LSA and get your hot meal in the same way as the cold options or pick it up at a counter from the kitchen if you eat in the "sleeper lounge." Obviously the challenge with that would be minimizing the employees that would be needed to allow that hot option.


----------



## lordsigma

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.


*sarcasm alert*How dare you suggest the coach pax get the nicer car!


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.


And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.


----------



## tricia

I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.


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## crescent-zephyr

tricia said:


> I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.


Well... this made me think. Maybe the Capitol Limited passengers will now be served lunch? If "Lunch Hours" are included in the time... which they are.. and "The dining car has to close early to clean-up" isn't a valid excuse... hmm.. we may have till wait until June to see.


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## Mystic River Dragon

tricia, I think you've got it exactly right.

A cold breakfast that contains protein would be fine even with me. In fact, a couple of hard-boiled cold eggs might actually be better than some of the scrambled or omelets I've had on the train, and a slice of ham like in the Portland sandwich would definitely be better than the sausage patties..


----------



## seat38a

lordsigma said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.
Click to expand...

Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.


----------



## niemi24s

Anybody have any idea how much of a increase in sleeper upcharges would be needed to reduce F&B losses to zero?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

niemi24s said:


> Anybody have any idea how much of a increase in sleeper upcharges would be needed to reduce F&B losses to zero?


I'm sure it varies from train to train but there should be other forms of revenue from the dining car. The boxed hot dinner for coach passengers is a great example. There should be a fixed meal option (continental breakfast, deluxe hot or cold sandwich, hot dinner) for each meal period offered to coach passengers at their seat.

Premium beverages need to be offered at each meal perioid, this includes premium coffees (espresso etc.) and bloody Mary's and mimosas at breakfast, and the full bar menu needs to be heavily advertised for lunch and dinner.

On extended trips (Coast Starlight, empire builder, zephyr, chief) - the dining car hosts a wine and cheese tasting that may be purchased by all passengers on full days. This should include a "hard sell" for bottles of wines to enjoy at dinner, etc. (The dining car staff hosted the wine tasting on the empire builder, so this can be done).

If seating in the dining car for meal periods is an issue on a route due to capacity of train, or staff limitations, all sleeping car passengers should be given the option to dine in their room. This will allow more room in the diner for coach passengers, and will allow for more leisure time in the diner, which will increase alcahol sales.


----------



## daybeers

(I know this is a little bit off topic, so mods, please move as you see fit.)

This may be a silly question, but I'm curious to know what opinions others have regarding the F&B mandate. Has it been positive or negative for Amtrak? A little of both? I wasn't following train news nearly as closely when PRRIA was enacted, so I don't know much about it.


----------



## lordsigma

seat38a said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.
Click to expand...

Find some silicon valley company to design the app.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakBlue said:


> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> *sarcasm alert*How dare you suggest the coach pax get the nicer car!
Click to expand...

You could set it up in a way so that the sleeping car passengers still get the viewliner seating. Put the old cafe directly adjacent to the viewliner diner. On the side of the kitchen facing the vestibule to the old cafe you could have the ordering/pickup area. Essentially my thought is just to use the viewliner II better equipped food prep area in place of the cafe prep area to provide a little more equipment and higher quality options. Viewliner seating could still be sleeper lounge. Again just an idea I randomly thought of - maybe not a good one, but I just figured the amfleet cafes are getting old and the new VII diners have a perfectly functional kitchen thats not going to be used for traditional dining car service- might as well use it for something. Then when you replace the cafes can make it all seating for coach with no kitchen.


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## bretton88

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.


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## CraigDK

bretton88 said:


> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.


Thanks for sharing this. I think Frailey's take on this is a reasoned one.


----------



## Bob Dylan

CraigDK said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing this. I think Frailey's take on this is a reasoned one.
Click to expand...

Ditto!


----------



## seat38a

lordsigma said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Find some silicon valley company to design the app.
Click to expand...

All the LSA needs is a iPhone with a CC reader and some basic software. The SAME iPhone's the conductors already use to scan tickets. But for whatever reason, Amtrak thinks it needs a custom POS system. Even my local Starbucks does all their inventory with an iPhone with a scanner attachment. The cafe car, maybe an iPad.

On the Surfliner which does have a POS system. If the system goes down, the LSA has to handwrite all of the inventory and then do math using a calculator. Let me tell you it does not take a genius app developer to write an app that can scan the barcode of the product add up all the prices and finish the transaction. Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.


----------



## lordsigma

Just booked auto train for October - will be interesting to see if anything changes by then. I would think it would be the last one to change (if ever) due to it being 100% overnighters. Kind of amazing how its financial performance compares with other trains even with its THREE diners.


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## Devil's Advocate

bretton88 said:


> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.


Fred starts his retort by lumping reasonable concerns with reactionary comments.

That's not the sort of tactic you expect from someone being reasonable and honest.

Fred's main premise is that people should stop overreacting because...

1. Amtrak food is already poor quality so there's not much to be lost or worry about

2. Congress mandated reductions in spending long before Anderson was hired

I don't disagree with either point but I fail to see how any of this nullifies legitimate concerns that food quality and service is falling while prices are remaining the same or increasing. At least in the case of the Silver Star the ticket price was reduced to account for the lack of food and the daily Meteor remained full service for those who wanted it. That change wasn't what everyone wanted, but most people could still find what they needed. That's a harder case to make with Anderson's initiative.

Fred proposes that a much better solution is as simple as...

1. No cash sales allowed on board

2. Hot Acela style meals for sleeper passengers

Which he claims will cost/save roughly the same amount of time and money as serving cold box meals.

It's unclear to me how Fred determined Acela first class meals would cost the same as cold box meals or what exactly he thinks passengers will be ordering with their credit cards. Neither Anderson's brown bag lunch setup or Fred's at-seat airline style reheated food tray is likely to entice me to splurge on extras. Nor would I need to if Amtrak was actually deploying Acela style first class meal service where the extras are included. Does Fred consider any of this in his cost estimates or in his presumption of big theft savings? Hard saying not knowing.



seat38a said:


> Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.


If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.


----------



## JRR

I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didn’t check every date), but the CL to Chicago from DC seems to have roomette and bedrooms at reasonable ( I’m not sure low bucket but seem lower than I’ve seen before).

Is this possibly a sign that people are avoiding the CL?


----------



## IndyLions

No - just an indication that the Cardinal is a 3 day a week train and the CL is a daily. Unless the train is your vacation (like many of us but not most people) very few who have a choice will opt for the longer ride. For most who ride the Cardinal between Charlottesville and Indy - they have no other train choice.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

JRR said:


> I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didnt check every date), but the CL to Chicago from DC seems to have roomette and bedrooms at reasonable ( Im not sure low bucket but seem lower than Ive seen before).
> 
> Is this possibly a sign that people are avoiding the CL?


Of course not. The Cardinal is a Tri-weekly train with 1.5 (after crew) single level sleepers. It's going to sell out much quicker than a daily train with 2.5 (.5 being the Transdorm) Superliner sleepers.


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## JRR

I guess you are both right but on the day where one had a choice (assuming Chicago is the destination), someone might decide against the CL.

As said at the start, both reasons suggested are probably why it sells out while the CL doesn’t. Maybe there is an argument to have the Cardinal made daily.


----------



## seat38a

Devil's Advocate said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.
> 
> 
> 
> If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.
Click to expand...

No but they could have done it better than the handout/subsidy to the Private RR which taking over their passenger business via Amtrak essentially was. Contributing worn out equipment to join Amtrak and then the government taking on all of the broken parts of the private RR on tax payers dime as far as I'm concerned was the typical government rollout blunder. To this day, Amtrak still can't get the host RR's to give them priority dispatch and trackage rights. NOT getting something with teeth related to dispatch and trackage rights I think was the biggest blunder of the Federal Government.

But then again non of this is surprising since Amtrak was never meant to survive from everything I'm reading and so it continues to limp along. IF Amtrak was a serious venture from the beginning, mandatory cash should have been a requirement NOT just POS equipment that were at the end of their useful life.


----------



## sldispatcher

I'm afraid my take on this goes against the grain of many of the louder voices.

1.Having had the good fortune to experience dining at 35,000 feet, it is very possible to serve meals way above Amtrak's previous standards. Entirely up to the purchaser (Amtrak) and the caterer. I didn't say it would happen, I said it was possible.

2. Convection oven reheating has been done for a long time in the air. To me, the key factor here does not appear to be food costs, but employee costs that are possibly being reduced.

3. Giving sleeper car passengers an exclusive space is paramount to taking Amtrak to the next level of broader appeal to customers willing to pay higher fares.

4. Anderson pushed Delta out of the doldrums and into the leader of customer service and employee morale in an industry that is not exactly famous for either. He was also very good at making money for the airline while leading improvements in customer service.

5. Market segmentation......it's probably about to get very real at Amtrak..and this is just the first step.

6. The hot meal issue...is real. And I agree with most everyone else that at least one or two options will/should be offered.

7. You remodel the space that was the dining car and put in a true lounge...and even have the ability to sandwich that car in between sleepers..and no longer be the buttress to the lounge car....and you might really have something. Again, shouldn't we give the man a chance to do what he has done elsewhere?

8. Because if he turns things around on each route to the tune of millions....there just might be more goodies that could come Amtrak's way?

9. I'm guessing this is just the tip of the iceberg. But Anderson may very well be SAVING the LD trains and laying the groundwork for growing/expanding service through segmentation. Can any of us really say Amtrak service offerings over the last 40 years have been_ widely_ acceptable to the _general_ traveling public? I bet more announcements are just around the corner.


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## AcrossTheOcean

tricia said:


> I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.


You said it much more simply than I did. Getting *enough* to eat for breakfast to last until arrival given lack of lunch on the CL toward WAS has been a bigger concern to me than the temperature of the breakfast served.


----------



## dlagrua

bretton88 said:


> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.


If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?


----------



## Ryan

Not sure where your food cost numbers are coming from, but at least you are consistent in making up your own facts and then drawing conclusions from them.



dlagrua said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?
Click to expand...

Earlier:



Ryan said:


> Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.
> 
> Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.


----------



## NativeSon5859

Interesting to read all of the comments, to say the least.

Personally, this won’t prevent me from booking an overnight Sleeping Car. Heck, I just did an overnight on the Cardinal in a sleeper and the meal service (all facets) was just horrible, both dinner and breakfast. I’d rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But that’s just me, maybe.

I have always enjoyed the traditional Dining Car experience, but let’s face it - it’s a relic from a different era. A hot entree option would be nice from the get go, but I’m sure it’s something that can be added fairly easily if feedback calls for it.

Anderson turned Delta into a global leader, and one of the best companies to work for and and as a passenger, to fly on. While these changes have undoubtably ruffled some feathers, I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt for trying something new.

On these relatively short, one night rides, hate to say it, but this is probably the future. I’d imagine a route like the CONO is next, and since it’s one I ride frequently, let me tell you, it’d be a welcome change over the current “Dining Car” service on that train.


----------



## niemi24s

JRR said:


> I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didn’t check every date). . .


Sounds like you had used the Amtrak website to do this search. Make it easier on yourself and learn how to use PaulM's wonderful creation called AmSnag... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...which allows you to get coach and all sleeper fares between two points for an entire 30 day period. AmSnag gets the fare data from Amtrak, making it much less tedious to see what the fares are for an entire month. Here's a sample of what a week's worth of fares looks like:


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## AmtrakLKL

NativeSon5859 said:


> I’d rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But that’s just me, maybe.


Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakLKL said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But thats just me, maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.
Click to expand...

Have you ridden the city lately? I'm in agreement the new box meals sound like an improvement. Especially since they can be served whenever, and I don't have to wait to be seated in a "dining Car" that has 1 employee trying to rush through a meal service.


----------



## CAMISSY55

NativeSon5859 said:


> ... On these relatively short, one night rides, hate to say it, but this is probably the future. Id imagine a route like the CONO is next, and since its one I ride frequently, let me tell you, itd be a welcome change over the current Dining Car service on that train.


Unfortunately, the CONO is my home train when traveling to CA, which I do (round trip) two or three times a year.
So, I agree wholeheartedly that the proposed "Fresh Choice" boxed meals could be an improvement on the current offerings on the CONO.


----------



## spinnaker

crescent-zephyr said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But thats just me, maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have you ridden the city lately? I'm in agreement the new box meals sound like an improvement. Especially since they can be served whenever, and I don't have to wait to be seated in a "dining Car" that has 1 employee trying to rush through a meal service.
Click to expand...


I never eat dinner in the dinning car. Always in the room. Is this not an option on your train?


----------



## rrdude

lordsigma said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Find some silicon valley company to design the app.
Click to expand...

No need. Already out there. I showed Amtrak “order and pay at table” with iPod Touch about ten years ago. Had previously sold the NCR POS for Cap, LSL snack bar... But they they disbanded business units, and wasted MORE money by not using POS units that they spent millions on..(IBM, NCR, Cache Box....) Almost any off-the-shelf POS today will allow server to input order (now) on iPad or tablet, while at the table, and order is sent wirelessly to kitchen.

Back in the day, biggest problem was integration into Amtrak’s accounting s/w, (no prob today) and security of WiFi infrastructure, router, pc, etc., etc.) when train was stored at Sunnyside, or Chicago, or LAX.....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

NativeSon5859 said:


> I have always enjoyed the traditional Dining Car experience, but let’s face it - it’s a relic from a different era.


In other industrialized democracies full service dining cars are a relic of the past because current passenger trains are much faster, mainly operate during business hours between train stations with their own dining options, and connect to onward metro travel easily and effortlessly. Whereas Amtrak trains are as slow today as they were forty years ago, often departing from areas with little or no meal service, or in the middle of the night and early morning when most dining services are closed, with even fewer metro connections than before. Riding Amtrak is like traveling through a food desert. Keeping tickets the same price while service and quality continue to deteriorate turns cold meals into a hot button issue.



NativeSon5859 said:


> Anderson turned Delta into a global leader, and one of the best companies to work for and […] as a passenger, to fly on. While these changes have undoubtably ruffled some feathers, I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt for trying something new.


For 2017 Delta was rated #32 on Skytrax, which isn't a perfect measurement in and of itself, but sounds about right to me. By way of comparison Alaska scored 36, Southwest scored 54, American scored 74 and United scored 78. That puts Delta at or near the top of our domestic carriers but still well below the best of the international market.


----------



## dlagrua

Ryans Quote : Not sure where your food cost numbers are coming from, but at least you are consistent in making up your own facts and then drawing conclusions from them.

My rebuttal

I sight facts

Here they are. Go to the supermarket and feel free to challenge my figures for ordinary breakfast items.

A dozen eggs costs us about $1.29 around here. Thats roughly 13 cents each x 2 = 26 cents.

A loaf of bread costs $1.99 of which two slices of bread costs about 20 cents

Sausage links lets say the ones that i buy at Aldi cost $2 for 20 10 cents per link X 2 20 cents

coffee costs me 25 cents per cup and that's gourmet coffee I drink at home

add up the breakfast food cost at retail supermarket prices no less, and you at about $1.00

add a glass of juice for another 30 cents, two pats of butter for 20 cents and there you have it. $1.50 for breakfast food

Now go out and price it and see what you get.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?
Click to expand...

Who do you think is off his rocker? Just because you can get something at the Supermarket at some price does not mean that the same thing can be retailed in a restaurant on wheels served by folks making good union wages and benefits for the same price. Otherwise all breakfasts at Denny's even would cost much less than they do.





The core issue about labor cost is that this is a method for moving the labor cost out of the F&B account to the general train account, while also eliminating a part of it, so even if every person is retained on the train, they disappear from the F&B account, except for one LSA. Capiche? The business about cold food has entirely to do with minimizing work load on the remaining non F&B people picking up the food from inventory and delivering them. I, like Fred, would prefer that airline First Class or Acela First Class style hot food was served, and maybe we will be able to arrive there somehow. But it does require some prep.

Again, just because I am explaining what is going on does not mean I necessarily agree with any of it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That's not Amtraks food costs. Amtrak has to purchase food from a commercial kitchen, that food has to be delivered to Amtrak on a commercial food truck delivered by a professional driver with a cdl license. It has to be unloaded onto a a commercial food truck, and again stored in a commercial kitchen / commisary.

If you want to have some fun, call up your local Sysco and get a price quote for a daily delivery of eggs, sausage and bread. Then you would have some real numbers.


----------



## jebr

Not to mention, at least according to the Amtrak Food Facts website Amtrak buys cage-free eggs. Around here cage free eggs start at around $3/dozen and go up from there. If there's a place in the US that sells cage-free eggs for $1.29/dozen at any sort of commercial volume I'd love to know where that is.

Also, Aldi limits quantities on certain items (I think eggs when they're on sale are often limited to 6 dozen.) I don't think 6 dozen eggs will feed the entire LD sleeper car system breakfast.


----------



## jis

jebr said:


> I don't think 6 dozen eggs will feed the entire LD sleeper car system breakfast.


6/7th egg per head ration


----------



## bretton88

Devil's Advocate said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Fred starts his retort by lumping reasonable concerns with reactionary comments.
> 
> That's not the sort of tactic you expect from someone being reasonable and honest.
> 
> Fred's main premise is that people should stop overreacting because...
> 
> 1. Amtrak food is already poor quality so there's not much to be lost or worry about
> 
> 2. Congress mandated reductions in spending long before Anderson was hired
> 
> I don't disagree with either point but I fail to see how any of this nullifies legitimate concerns that food quality and service is falling while prices are remaining the same or increasing. At least in the case of the Silver Star the ticket price was reduced to account for the lack of food and the daily Meteor remained full service for those who wanted it. That change wasn't what everyone wanted, but most people could still find what they needed. That's a harder case to make with Anderson's initiative.
> 
> Fred proposes that a much better solution is as simple as...
> 
> 1. No cash sales allowed on board
> 
> 2. Hot Acela style meals for sleeper passengers
> 
> Which he claims will cost/save roughly the same amount of time and money as serving cold box meals.
> 
> It's unclear to me how Fred determined Acela first class meals would cost the same as cold box meals or what exactly he thinks passengers will be ordering with their credit cards. Neither Anderson's brown bag lunch setup or Fred's at-seat airline style reheated food tray is likely to entice me to splurge on extras. Nor would I need to if Amtrak was actually deploying Acela style first class meal service where the extras are included. Does Fred consider any of this in his cost estimates or in his presumption of big theft savings? Hard saying not knowing.
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.
Click to expand...

Fred isn't proposing ways to increase revenue, just ways to decrease losses. Going cashless won't increase revenue, but will probably decrease losses through less waste and theft. Boxed hot meals are probably only an incremental increase over the proposed cold meals, so there's still less financial loss with less customer alienation.


----------



## Lonestar648

The cost of the raw bulk food is a very small percent of the cost. It is the labor that is being camouflaged from Congress' mandate. Breakfast is the least cost in raw goods, and requires the least amount of labor to prepare, and what the government says is the most important meal of the day. Yes, some people do enjoy their meal in their room, but the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers. Meal time has always been unique on the train, even Amtrak. Now, on the CL and the LSL the experience will be changed, we guess for the worse, but not all the facts are in. Even so, with what we know so far, I am sadden by the proposed changes.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Lonestar648 said:


> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.


I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?

While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.


----------



## jis

I would heartily second crescent-zephyr's position as far as the dining car dating games go.


----------



## Rail Freak

crescent-zephyr said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> 
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
Click to expand...

I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rail Freak said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> 
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!
Click to expand...

What statement? What message? ha.


----------



## rrdude

crescent-zephyr said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
Click to expand...

You have those choices today.... on any LD train......


----------



## rrdude

crescent-zephyr said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What statement? What message? ha.
Click to expand...

Your message seems to indicate you’d rather not “rub shoulders” with the coach passengers......


----------



## seat38a

Rail Freak said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> 
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!
Click to expand...

You can scold lynch crescent-zephyr for saying it all you want but over the years, I've come to realize that quite a few members have said exactly what crescent-zephyr said in a more circuitous PC way.

Personally, I've had a mixed experience with being seated with coach passengers in the dining car. One guy seemed out of it and if he had a orange jumpsuit on could have easily been on the evening news. This past trip on the CS, my mom excused herself from the table and practically ran out the dining car because she was feeling nauseated. She was sitting next to a woman who boarded in Portland and traveling in coach. She was very nice but unfortunately she did not smell pleasant after 30+ hours on the train without a shower. And this one goes for both sleeper and coach passengers. Some just won't shut up!

Also, when we're seated with coach passengers, it does get a little awkward when it comes to ordering food. While the 3 of us are enjoying our steak and talking about how blah blah blah. Its easier to have the conversation with another fellow sleeper passenger who gets everything included than when sitting with someone who orders the cheapest thing off the menu and also none of the dinner roll/salads/dessert. Were eating and they are just sitting there.

To be honest I really can do without the wondering/worrying who we're going to get put with(coach/sleeper) during the walk down to the dining car.


----------



## Sauve850

I travel train from west coast to Florida each late summer/early fall. I stop over for a night in Chicago and catch the CL the next evening. I used to eat in the dining car but service was such that I gave it up. It just ran so late that I began buying food in the station and taking it to my bedroom. I get my bed made up when the SCA stops by and eat a sandwich and dessert after we leave the station.

I will miss breakfast as that has always been the best meal on the trains imo. So I will sleep in, enjoy the new breakfast with a plan to visit Johnny Rockets in DC after the CL arrives before my connection to Florida.


----------



## spinnaker

Sauve850 said:


> I travel train from west coast to Florida each late summer/early fall. I stop over for a night in Chicago and catch the CL the next evening. I used to eat in the dining car but service was such that I gave it up. It just ran so late that I began buying food in the station and taking it to my bedroom. I get my bed made up when the SCA stops by and eat a sandwich and dessert after we leave the station.
> 
> I will miss breakfast as that has always been the best meal on the trains imo. So I will sleep in, enjoy the new breakfast with a plan to visit Johnny Rockets in DC after the CL arrives before my connection to Florida.



This is at least the second complaint on diner car service. Why are people eating in the diner when they don't like the service or atmosphere? I travel alone. I prefer to be alone for dinner. I just get my dinner sent to my room. No messing with reservations. No worry about having to make conversation. No problems with diner car service. Problem solved.


----------



## Sauve850

I just prefer not to eat dinner late. Eating in ones room doesn't get the food there any earlier. "Service" was not the right choice of words. Its a timing issue for me.


----------



## me_little_me

I dislike the whole idea of sitting in the room eating. I have never had a problem sitting with coach people in the diner. I think that those that want to sit by themselves should do so but it is not an excuse to get rid of the diner. For what I pay for some of my trips vs first class travel on a plane, I want the service I expect. If not, then I fly. Already, we have done first class one way and train the other based on the cheaper cost of first class at times. I won't take the Star and will pay the extra cost of the Meteor because I want to enjoy my trip. If I am not given the choice,

And as to who is the customer, the rider pays most of the cost and the taxpayer (not the government) pays the rest. The same is true for cars, planes, buses and trucks. Therefore, I pay my fare plus my portion of the taxes. I am the customer.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

rrdude said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What statement? What message? ha.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your message seems to indicate you’d rather not “rub shoulders” with the coach passengers......
Click to expand...

Can you please show me where I said such a thing?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?





> Your message seems to indicate youd rather not rub shoulders with the coach passengers......





> Can you please show me where I said such a thing?


After reading your post, I draw the same conclusion. Your message seem to indicate you would rather not rub shoulders with Coach passengers. Your request for information is just as intriguing. Awkward situation is a understatement.

.


----------



## TinCan782

crescent-zephyr said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> 
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
Click to expand...

The very FEW instances of "awkward situations" in the diner have been greatly overshadowed by the good experiences.


----------



## Chey

I've had mixed experiences in the dining car myself. Being a bit of an Aspie, I am very uncomfortable making conversation with strangers. OTOH I've met some fascinating people who were easy to talk to from all sections of the train. Also some pretty weird ones. A glass of wine lets me relax enough to venture out but I'm still inclined to prefer my meals in my room.

We have the same options we've always had. Live and let live.


----------



## Rail Freak

crescent-zephyr said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?
> While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What statement? What message? ha.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your message seems to indicate you’d rather not “rub shoulders” with the coach passengers......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you please show me where I said such a thing?
Click to expand...

I apologize, I must have misunderstood you!!!


----------



## jis

I think that when two sets of people with different entitlements are mixed together, and in such a setting the person with higher entitlements visibly exercises such, it can lead to hurt feelings on part of the person with lower entitlements. That's all that was illustrated by crescent-zephyr's example. To jump from that to the conclusion that he does not like to rub shoulders etc. etc. is mostly in the imagination of the reader(s). As for why they do that I have no way of knowing.

Incidentally this problem is not peculiar to Amtrak Diners. It happens in many other settings too.


----------



## dlagrua

jis said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who do you think is off his rocker? Just because you can get something at the Supermarket at some price does not mean that the same thing can be retailed in a restaurant on wheels served by folks making good union wages and benefits for the same price. Otherwise all breakfasts at Denny's even would cost much less than they do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The core issue about labor cost is that this is a method for moving the labor cost out of the F&B account to the general train account, while also eliminating a part of it, so even if every person is retained on the train, they disappear from the F&B account, except for one LSA. Capiche? The business about cold food has entirely to do with minimizing work load on the remaining non F&B people picking up the food from inventory and delivering them. I, like Fred, would prefer that airline First Class or Acela First Class style hot food was served, and maybe we will be able to arrive there somehow. But it does require some prep.
> 
> Again, just because I am explaining what is going on does not mean I necessarily agree with any of it.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your well though out analysis about the change of the food service situation. IMO, serving cold food and reassigning the food service people will not save a penny but that's a different argument. As you state it moves the F&B expense to a different area. This is just flawed economics but congress is famous for this . I have decided to take petitions with me on our next trip to give to the food service people in order to gather public support for saving the dining cars. We are told that the food service people will not lose their jobs but what will these good people do when there are 4 or 5 extra people on each train?. I'll tell you what Amtrak will do. After a few months, Amtrak will sight a surplus of staff and Anderson "the hero" will find a way to lay them all off. Anderson comes from a time period in Delta;s history when the airline laid off thousands of people. Amtrak hired the right hatchet man to get the job done. I hope that I am wrong..


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who do you think is off his rocker? Just because you can get something at the Supermarket at some price does not mean that the same thing can be retailed in a restaurant on wheels served by folks making good union wages and benefits for the same price. Otherwise all breakfasts at Denny's even would cost much less than they do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The core issue about labor cost is that this is a method for moving the labor cost out of the F&B account to the general train account, while also eliminating a part of it, so even if every person is retained on the train, they disappear from the F&B account, except for one LSA. Capiche? The business about cold food has entirely to do with minimizing work load on the remaining non F&B people picking up the food from inventory and delivering them. I, like Fred, would prefer that airline First Class or Acela First Class style hot food was served, and maybe we will be able to arrive there somehow. But it does require some prep.
> 
> Again, just because I am explaining what is going on does not mean I necessarily agree with any of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I appreciate your well though out analysis about the change of the food service situation. IMO, serving cold food and reassigning the food service people will not save a penny but that's a different argument. As you state it moves the F&B expense to a different area. This is just flawed economics but congress is famous for this . I have decided to take petitions with me on our next trip to give to the food service people in order to gather public support for saving the dining cars. We are told that the food service people will not lose their jobs but what will these good people do when there are 4 or 5 extra people on each train?. I'll tell you what Amtrak will do. After a few months, Amtrak will sight a surplus of staff and Anderson "the hero" will find a way to lay them all off. Anderson comes from a time period in Delta;s history when the airline laid off thousands of people. Amtrak hired the right hatchet man to get the job done. I hope that I am wrong..
Click to expand...

Do you really think it’s a good idea to ask employees to distribute petitions while on the job (or even when not on the job)? Sounds like you’re trying to save Anderson the trouble of laying off employees as they may get fired for doing what you ask them to do.


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## Lonestar648

You may want to check first if it against employee regs to handle such requests? I wouldn't want to place an unaware employee in the bulls-eye of management retaliation.


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## OBS

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx
> 
> Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who do you think is off his rocker? Just because you can get something at the Supermarket at some price does not mean that the same thing can be retailed in a restaurant on wheels served by folks making good union wages and benefits for the same price. Otherwise all breakfasts at Denny's even would cost much less than they do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The core issue about labor cost is that this is a method for moving the labor cost out of the F&B account to the general train account, while also eliminating a part of it, so even if every person is retained on the train, they disappear from the F&B account, except for one LSA. Capiche? The business about cold food has entirely to do with minimizing work load on the remaining non F&B people picking up the food from inventory and delivering them. I, like Fred, would prefer that airline First Class or Acela First Class style hot food was served, and maybe we will be able to arrive there somehow. But it does require some prep.
> 
> Again, just because I am explaining what is going on does not mean I necessarily agree with any of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I appreciate your well though out analysis about the change of the food service situation. IMO, serving cold food and reassigning the food service people will not save a penny but that's a different argument. As you state it moves the F&B expense to a different area. This is just flawed economics but congress is famous for this . I have decided to take petitions with me on our next trip to give to the food service people in order to gather public support for saving the dining cars. We are told that the food service people will not lose their jobs but what will these good people do when there are 4 or 5 extra people on each train?. I'll tell you what Amtrak will do. After a few months, Amtrak will sight a surplus of staff and Anderson "the hero" will find a way to lay them all off. Anderson comes from a time period in Delta;s history when the airline laid off thousands of people. Amtrak hired the right hatchet man to get the job done. I hope that I am wrong..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you really think it’s a good idea to ask employees to distribute petitions while on the job (or even when not on the job)? Sounds like you’re trying to save Anderson the trouble of laying off employees as they may get fired for doing what you ask them to do.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the employees are not allowed to participate in any way.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Pretty sure there could be a rule against distributing literature on the train. Might be wise to just enjoy your boxed meal and mixed drink for what it is and let people decide on thier own if they wish to continue riding Amtak.


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## Ryan

Fortunately, I would say. They have a job to do, and it doesn’t involve being political activists on behalf of random customers.


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Pretty sure there could be a rule against distributing literature on the train. Might be wise to just enjoy your boxed meal and mixed drink for what it is and let people decide on thier own if they wish to continue riding Amtak.


As long as you do not make it look like an organized movement, and instead just discreetly hand out stuff to people you meet, I don't think anyone will complain. Trying to involve Amtrak staff in all this sort of stuff is a big no-no.

In general putting literature in support of Amtrak that is not critical of Amtrak management overtly has been accepted in the past for placement in free document shelves at many stations. But active participation of staff is generally looked down upon I believe.

Just some impressions from past experience in distributing literature in connection with Amtrak related votes in the Congress and such. YMMV


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## crescent-zephyr

Interesting to note Anderson (or whoever) may be looking at other overnight trains for ideas... both overnight trains that operate in England, the Night Riviera and the Caledonian Sleeper (both trains depart London and offer a 1 night journey arriving the next morning) operate in a very similar way. Breakfast is advertised at your cabin or "in the lounge if you prefer" - sleeper class passengers have exclusive use of the lounge, coach passengers may purchase food to eat at their seat. All passengers receive an amenity kit. Lots of interesting comparisons. Dinner is not included, but can be purchased in the lounge, or be delivered to your room.

If you google either train name along with the word "breakfast" you will see a pretty basic, mostly pre-packaged breakfast. The "hot" breakfast items on both trains look to be extremely basic "heat and serve" dishes. And many of the photos are of all prepackaged items with cereal.


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## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> Interesting to note Anderson (or whoever) may be looking at other overnight trains for ideas... both overnight trains that operate in England, the Night Riviera and the Caledonian Sleeper (both trains depart London and offer a 1 night journey arriving the next morning) operate in a very similar way. Breakfast is advertised at your cabin or "in the lounge if you prefer" - sleeper class passengers have exclusive use of the lounge, coach passengers may purchase food to eat at their seat. All passengers receive an amenity kit. Lots of interesting comparisons. Dinner is not included, but can be purchased in the lounge, or be delivered to your room.
> 
> If you google either train name along with the word "breakfast" you will see a pretty basic, mostly pre-packaged breakfast. The "hot" breakfast items on both trains look to be extremely basic "heat and serve" dishes. And many of the photos are of all prepackaged items with cereal.


Wonder if the same people who say Amtrak should be more like the European trains will complain that Amtrak is starting to look more like the European trains. [emoji848]


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## Maglev

When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!


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## jis

Maglev said:


> When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!


Charlie was on it recently too. It is the Caledonian Sleeper service operated by a private franchisee, Serco for Scottish Rail Regulators which is the contracting agency, in a new franchise for 15 years. Even trying to propose such an operation in the US would be liable to be treated as blasphemy these days. C'est la vie.

BTW, it is getting brand spanking new Mark V cars, manufactured by CAF (75 cars) delivered more or less on time. They go into service in October this year.


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## Maglev

Maglev said:


> When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!


Something like this might work on Amtrak for sleeper passengers if meals were ordered at the time tickets are purchased. This would allow a central commissary to prepare the meals. Another idea is to have random restaurants along the route prepare the food, but I think this would be more complicated (although it is in essence what is done on the _Empire Builder)._


----------



## jis

Maglev said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!
> 
> 
> 
> Something like this might work on Amtrak for sleeper passengers if meals were ordered at the time tickets are purchased. This would allow a central commissary to prepare the meals. Another idea is to have random restaurants along the route prepare the food, but I think this would be more complicated (although it is in essence what is done on the _Empire Builder)._
Click to expand...

Are you sure that the Empire Builder has food cooked at random places on the way?


----------



## Maglev

jis said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!
> 
> 
> 
> Something like this might work on Amtrak for sleeper passengers if meals were ordered at the time tickets are purchased. This would allow a central commissary to prepare the meals. Another idea is to have random restaurants along the route prepare the food, but I think this would be more complicated (although it is in essence what is done on the _Empire Builder)._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you sure that the Empire Builder has food cooked at random places on the way?
Click to expand...

I meant the boxed food for the Portland section.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting to note Anderson (or whoever) may be looking at other overnight trains for ideas... both overnight trains that operate in England, the Night Riviera and the Caledonian Sleeper (both trains depart London and offer a 1 night journey arriving the next morning) operate in a very similar way. Breakfast is advertised at your cabin or "in the lounge if you prefer" - sleeper class passengers have exclusive use of the lounge, coach passengers may purchase food to eat at their seat. All passengers receive an amenity kit. Lots of interesting comparisons. Dinner is not included, but can be purchased in the lounge, or be delivered to your room. If you google either train name along with the word "breakfast" you will see a pretty basic, mostly pre-packaged breakfast. The "hot" breakfast items on both trains look to be extremely basic "heat and serve" dishes. And many of the photos are of all prepackaged items with cereal.
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if the same people who say Amtrak should be more like the European trains will complain that Amtrak is starting to look more like the European trains. [emoji848]
Click to expand...

Is this intended to be a facetious comment? Overnight sleeper trains represent less than 1% of European passenger train inventory. When Americans say they want passenger service which is more like European trains this isn't what they're talking about.


----------



## JoeBas

Devil's Advocate said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if the same people who say Amtrak should be more like the European trains will complain that Amtrak is starting to look more like the European trains. [emoji848]
> 
> 
> 
> Is this intended to be a facetious comment?
Click to expand...

Imma go with "yeah".


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Maglev said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure that the Empire Builder has food cooked at random places on the way?
> 
> 
> 
> I meant the boxed food for the Portland section.
Click to expand...

Also the "Big Sky Chicken Dinner" which is a cold boxed dinner that is loaded onto the Empire Builder in Montana and sold in the lounge car. Seeing how this has been going on for 20+ years it tells us 2 things.

1. It is possible to load food from a private caterer mid-trip.

2. Coach passengers are interested in a higher quality, cold, boxed meal that they can purchase and eat at their seat or in the lounge. Keep in mind that this is available on a long distance train that offers a full service dining car to coach passengers. One could then assume, that some coach passengers would PREFER a cold, boxed meal that they can pick up and eat at their seat, vs. the traditional dining car experience.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in England around 1990, I rode the "Pullman" train from London to Penzance and had dinner on board (I think Jis recently took this trip...). Food was ordered on the train but prepared off the train and picked up en-route. The meal was delicious!
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie was on it recently too. It is the Caledonian Sleeper service operated by a private franchisee, Serco for Scottish Rail Regulators which is the contracting agency, in a new franchise for 15 years. Even trying to propose such an operation in the US would be liable to be treated as blasphemy these days. C'est la vie.
> 
> BTW, it is getting brand spanking new Mark V cars, manufactured by CAF (75 cars) delivered more or less on time. They go into service in October this year.
Click to expand...

These are 2 different things.

1 - The Caledonian Sleeper does not offer a dining car. They offer a dinner menu in the lounge, which is only available to sleeping car passengers. They also offer a limited at your seat menu to coach passengers.

2 - "Pullman Dining" is a full service dining car on select departures on the Great Western Railway. These are on the regularly scheduled day trains, not the overnight train.

3 - The Night Rivera is also operated by the Great Western Railway, however it does not offer a full dining car. It does offer a lounge car, available only to sleeping car passengers, and it also offers coach passengers the opportunity to purchase "drink and light snacks" from the "express cafe" to enjoy at their seat.


----------



## jis

In addition Virgin East Coast and Virgin West Coast at least has pretty good at seat dining service in all of the First Class. The English breakfast is really good. And remarkably unhealthy too


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## seat38a

jis said:


> In addition Virgin East Coast and Virgin West Coast at least has pretty good at seat dining service in all of the First Class. The English breakfast is really good.


I believe the breakfast is cooked onboard and lunch and dinner are reheats.


----------



## Seaboard92

I've met some amazing coach passengers in the diner in recent years. Most notably Maddy from Cleveland. Her and I were talking from Cumberland to Cleveland on the sightseer after dinner. And I was a sleeper passenger with my meal included. I generally don't like Amtrak desserts so I generally don't order them.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Mr. Fred Frailey wrote his opinion about the test to eliminate hot meals on the LCL and CL. He mentioned that there is a Congressional mandate to not have any monetary revenue loss from dining cars by 2020. The changes of this Congressional mandate changing before 2020 is slim to none at all, so despite the voiced opinions here.....including mine, Amtrak has to meet this requirement.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx


----------



## Ryan

Already well discussed staring a few pages back...

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/72759-amtraks-new-fresh-choices-dining-on-cl-lsl/page-19&do=findComment&comment=750853


----------



## TC_NYC

Went to look at the ticket prices on the LSL to see how they where looking (curious if they might have lowered the prices temporarily as people get upset over the diner situation). Funny enough, the booking page is extremely misleading and makes it look like the offerings have been upgraded!



> Contemporary Dining Choices on Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Trains Begin June 1: Sleeping car customers can choose from a variety of fresh and ready-to-serve meals in place of traditional dining service. Sleeping and business class customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit. Learn more about the new dining options.


It makes it sound like you can "choose a variety of fresh ready-to-serve meals" in lieu of the traditional diner service. But that traditional dining service is still being offered...

Amtrak is going to have a _*ton *_of upset passengers when they get handed a turkey sandwich for dinner...


----------



## Seaboard92

Hopefully this experiment will be done by the next time I ride the Lake Shore. Oh well my next trip on it is in this car.


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## Lonestar648

The statement says "in place of". It is a fine line, but Amtrak marketing doesn't want to complicate matters with a more detailed explanation. They are trying to sell this as a change for the better. No one will know for sure what is offered and isn't until June 1st.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

If you click on the "learn more about the new dining options" link it admits that these new con-temporary meals are taking the place of traditional dining car options with no table service available. At first glance it's written so oddly that it almost looks like I can choose between a quality meal, a fresh meal, or a ready to serve meal. Then there's the silly marketing speak where in-room service, which appears to be similar if not identical to previous efforts, is now called "enhanced" room service. When I hear "fresh" I don't generally think of ready-to-serve or prepackaged meals but I guess any remaining confusion will be instantly cleared up when folks see their first class box meal arrive. Honestly, the main issue I have with this change is Amtrak's decision not to waive any penalties for those who booked during the current dining service and don't want to be an early participant in Anderson's "enhanced" dining experiment. It just seems needlessly petty and tone deaf to me.


----------



## Lonestar648

Are they afraid of a run to cancel before even the first day of the new service?


----------



## tommylicious

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you click on the "learn more about the new dining options" link it admits that these new con-temporary meals are taking the place of traditional dining car options with no table service available. At first glance it's written so oddly that it almost looks like I can choose between a quality meal, a fresh meal, or a ready to serve meal. Then there's the silly marketing speak where in-room service, which appears to be similar if not identical to previous efforts, is now called "enhanced" room service. When I hear "fresh" I don't generally think of ready-to-serve or prepackaged meals but I guess any remaining confusion will be instantly cleared up when folks see their first class box meal arrive. Honestly, the main issue I have with this change is Amtrak's decision not to waive any penalties for those who booked during the current dining service and don't want to be an early participant in Anderson's "enhanced" dining experiment. It just seems needlessly petty and tone deaf to me.


This is such a sad, pathetic development for Trak. I absolutely refuse to ride any line without proper diner service cooked to order food.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting to note Anderson (or whoever) may be looking at other overnight trains for ideas... both overnight trains that operate in England, the Night Riviera and the Caledonian Sleeper (both trains depart London and offer a 1 night journey arriving the next morning) operate in a very similar way. Breakfast is advertised at your cabin or "in the lounge if you prefer" - sleeper class passengers have exclusive use of the lounge, coach passengers may purchase food to eat at their seat. All passengers receive an amenity kit. Lots of interesting comparisons. Dinner is not included, but can be purchased in the lounge, or be delivered to your room. If you google either train name along with the word "breakfast" you will see a pretty basic, mostly pre-packaged breakfast. The "hot" breakfast items on both trains look to be extremely basic "heat and serve" dishes. And many of the photos are of all prepackaged items with cereal.
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if the same people who say Amtrak should be more like the European trains will complain that Amtrak is starting to look more like the European trains. [emoji848]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is this intended to be a facetious comment? Overnight sleeper trains represent less than 1% of European passenger train inventory. When Americans say they want passenger service which is more like European trains this isn't what they're talking about.
Click to expand...

While I agree that Americans mean "high speed corridor trains" it really should be noted that many European trains are not high speed. The high speed corridors are fed by slower trains.

There are 2 overnight trains operating in the country of England, which is 57% the size of california. How big of a percentage do overnight trains represent in the usa? Can't be that much higher.

Obviously it's not apples to oranges... Nothing is ever a direct comparison. Just some pre-prepared food for thought.


----------



## Rheavon

Rheavon said:


> spinnaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was anyone informed of this change by Amtrak? I know I wasn't and I have a roomette reservation this summer. Amtrak could have at least notified people so they can make other arrangements for dinner id they chose. With a 6:40PM departure east bound from CHI there are certainly opportunities for an early dinner in the city.
> 
> 
> 
> Not me. I'm riding the CL July 31 and haven't received any word on the change.
Click to expand...

Just an update. Got my notification today. Subject = Your upcoming trip: new meal service onboard

Hi RHEAVON

Beginning June 1, Amtrak will offer contemporary meal choices for sleeping car customers, in place of traditional dining car service, onboard the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains. Sleeping car customers will choose from a variety of quality, fresh and ready-to-serve meals. Unlimited soft drinks, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit will also be offered to sleeping car customers.

Sleeping car customers will have the option to dine at available seating in the sleeping car lounge or can continue to be served in their bedrooms or roomettes. 

Reservations for in room dining will be available in frequent intervals consistent with today’s standards and meals continue to be included in the sleeping car fare. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.

More information is available here

Thank you for choosing Amtrak.


----------



## Everydaymatters

It is so sad to think that if the new meals are not reversed, people who are just now beginning to ride Amtrak will never miss it. They won't know what it was like to travel by train in the past. They won't know about the steak dinners served on a real tablecloths. They'll happily pack extra travel food or extra money for the cafe. They will be content to ride from here to there and nothing more.


----------



## PVD

As far as I know, Amtrak carries in the realm of 32 million passengers per year, around 4.7 million are long distance. Of that, Star has been dinerless for quit a while, at 377k + riders. The new program impacts trains that carry approximately 620k additional passengers. CONO and Card are another 368k with limited service. A very large part of the LD ridership are coach passengers who may or may not use the diner at all. If a few people choose not to ride, but a greater number choose to, or if ridership stays the same or similar, but losses are lower, nobody will care that a few of us are not happy about the change.


----------



## pennyk

Rheavon said:


> Just an update. Got my notification today. Subject = Your upcoming trip: new meal service onboard
> 
> Hi RHEAVON
> 
> Beginning June 1, Amtrak will offer contemporary meal choices for sleeping car customers, in place of traditional dining car service, onboard the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains. Sleeping car customers will choose from a variety of quality, fresh and ready-to-serve meals. Unlimited soft drinks, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit will also be offered to sleeping car customers.
> 
> Sleeping car customers will have the option to dine at available seating in the sleeping car lounge or can continue to be served in their bedrooms or roomettes.
> 
> Reservations for in room dining will be available in frequent intervals consistent with today’s standards and meals continue to be included in the sleeping car fare. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
> 
> More information is available here
> 
> Thank you for choosing Amtrak.


I received the same email just now (however addressed to me). My next scheduled trip on the Capitol Limited is mid July.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Overnight sleeper trains represent less than 1% of European passenger train inventory. When Americans say they want passenger service which is more like European trains this isn't what they're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that Americans mean "high speed corridor trains" it really should be noted that many European trains are not high speed. The high speed corridors are fed by slower trains.
Click to expand...

In my experience, although they may not be able to fully articulate it, when Americans refer to "European trains" they generally mean the whole interconnected ecosystem. The faster speeds bringing distant cities and attractions within range of day trips and weekend excursions, higher frequency levels allowing more precise and/or more flexible scheduling, active but mostly open stations with more efficient access and a wider range of goods and services, numerous and frequent connecting options, and general ease of use.


----------



## spinnaker

I just got my email.


----------



## Anderson

PVD said:


> As far as I know, Amtrak carries in the realm of 32 million passengers per year, around 4.7 million are long distance. Of that, Star has been dinerless for quit a while, at 377k + riders. The new program impacts trains that carry approximately 620k additional passengers. CONO and Card are another 368k with limited service. A very large part of the LD ridership are coach passengers who may or may not use the diner at all. If a few people choose not to ride, but a greater number choose to, or if ridership stays the same or similar, but losses are lower, nobody will care that a few of us are not happy about the change.


A large portion of the Star's ridership is short-haul. MIA-TPA, TPA-ORL-JAX, and RGH-RVR-WAS-NYP are much of that ridership, with through ridership being much thinner.


----------



## frequentflyer

Everydaymatters said:


> It is so sad to think that if the new meals are not reversed, people who are just now beginning to ride Amtrak will never miss it. They won't know what it was like to travel by train in the past. They won't know about the steak dinners served on a real tablecloths. They'll happily pack extra travel food or extra money for the cafe. They will be content to ride from here to there and nothing more.


Ding,ding,ding..........Someone gets it. The uproar when airlines removed meals were louder and got more attention. The airilnes went through with the removal anyway and now when we board an airline think nothing of not getting a meal.

I can see some airline think here by Anderson, what Everydaymatters posted will be the new reality.


----------



## JRR

I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!


What diner have you got?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Anderson said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, Amtrak carries in the realm of 32 million passengers per year, around 4.7 million are long distance. Of that, Star has been dinerless for quit a while, at 377k + riders. The new program impacts trains that carry approximately 620k additional passengers. CONO and Card are another 368k with limited service. A very large part of the LD ridership are coach passengers who may or may not use the diner at all. If a few people choose not to ride, but a greater number choose to, or if ridership stays the same or similar, but losses are lower, nobody will care that a few of us are not happy about the change.
> 
> 
> 
> A large portion of the Star's ridership is short-haul. MIA-TPA, TPA-ORL-JAX, and RGH-RVR-WAS-NYP are much of that ridership, with through ridership being much thinner.
Click to expand...

Also, for most LD trains approx 80%-90% of passengers ride coach. Even if they wanted to eat in the diner car, they have to pay for those meals and it is quite a sticker shock to see $25 for an Amtrak steak (and that's assuming a coach passenger can even get a dinner reservation which may not be the case on some LD trains although breakfast is most likely easy to get and prices are usually cheaper). Most of the coach passengers I'm guessing aren't buying Amtrak steaks or eating in the diner car in general. Someone's eating in the cafe car.

Yes it is a LD trip and of course you expect to be fed. The issue is it seems like you expect steak but the problem is for you to get steak taxpayers have to fund that steak. In theory it isn't fair when "regular food" should be adequate to keep you fed on your trip and cost less for taxpayers.


----------



## Chey

I haven't gotten my email but I'm not riding the CL until September, that must be why.

I did, however, get an a new ticket for the CONO in September. The only change I could see is that it arrives in CHI 20 minutes later. There was another post about that change but the thread's locked. It takes effect in May and lasts through at least September, maybe longer. The online schedule still shows the earlier arrival time so I guess it's long-term but not permanent?


----------



## JRR

cpotisch said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got my notice for my late July. With respect to the Star, I only ride it from DFB to Tampa. Our long trips we go on the Meteor (I’m on it now)!
> 
> 
> 
> What diner have you got?
Click to expand...

Montgomery. Had the land and sea for dinner. Steak cooked medium rare as ordered and with bernaise sauce was quite good. The crab, scallops and shrimp cake while an odd combination was ok. Lots of old bay seasoning.

Enjoyed visiting with an engineer and his elderly mother.

Will enjoy the experience while we can!


----------



## AcrossTheOcean

I got my notice of the menu changes yesterday morning, too.

Random question. If a child is booked in a sleeper, does the accompanying adult get the child's free alcoholic beverage?


----------



## caravanman

If the child is under 21 and American, the adult gets the booze. If the child is over age 7 and French, the kid gets the red wine...






Certainly bring some extra snacks too, the on board prices in the cafe cars are twice or three times what you would pay at a regular store near the station...

Ed.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

AcrossTheOcean said:


> I got my notice of the menu changes yesterday morning, too.
> 
> Random question. If a child is booked in a sleeper, does the accompanying adult get the child's free alcoholic beverage?


Hey, don’t give these guys & gals ideas. They’ll start borrowing their nieces, nephews, grandkids just to get an extra free alcoholic drink. [emoji3]


----------



## Lonestar648

I always carry a few snacks in my backpack. The cafe isn't open during the early morning hours, so if I get a snack urge or need gto take a pain med I have something. One of my favorites are the peanut butter/honey crackers, compact and light, so easy to carry. I generally do not buy anything at the cafe unless I have a young granddaughter, then it is a treat for her to buy something on the train, eat in the lounge in addition to the Dining Car.


----------



## Skyline

Next trip, I'm thinking of trying this...

https://heatermeals.com/how-self-heating-works/

I know MREs have a bad rep from those forced to eat them in the military. But in the backpacking market newer food choices and technology have caused some to take another look at offerings which do not require flame. When I'm out backpacking, I try to go lighter than this because I have to carry everything I need for multiple days on my back--and these are not as light as what I typically carry plus I use a flame to heat mine. But on a two-day or shorter train journey? Hmmmm...

More on this topic:

https://science.howstuffworks.com/mre4.htm

If you wanted to prepare your own meals at home and dehydrate them (I've done this many times for backpacking with great results), then you could easily rehydrate them on a train (or trail), and use this standalone flameless heater to cook:

https://www.magnesium-elektron.com/markets/defense/flameless-heaters-self-heating-meals-beverages/

Thinking very outside the box here, I know. Probably more relevant for sleeping car pax than coach. I don't see Amtrak embracing this in the proposed sleeper lounges or trackside.


----------



## JRR

for what it is worth:

On the Meteor this morning, I was able to talk to the Montgomery dining car staff including the chef.

First of all, the chef insisted that all the food including scrambled eggs, pancakes and etc were cooked to order on the grill. He denied using sous vide for anything.

We then had an interesting discussion of the new menu on the CL and LSL. They all agreed that it is their opinion that the new menu will be put in place everywhere including the Meteor and the LD trains.


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> We then had an interesting discussion of the new menu on the CL and LSL. They all agreed that it is their opinion that the new menu will be put in place everywhere including the Meteor and the LD trains.


That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thanks for the report. Im sure that's the plan, but it was also the plan to convert most (maybe all?) dining cars to CCC cars... How long did the CCC concept last after being tested? Like 6 months? Then it went back to standard menu. I'm not saying the standard menu will come back, I am just saying that even advertised seemingly set in stone plans do change.


----------



## TiBike

We don't know what the new food is going to be, since they've haven't rolled it out yet. But based on the description, it sounds better to me than what's served now.

It also sounds like a likely upgrade for coach passengers. These are meals that can be sold in the cafe, where the food on long distance trains is even worse than what's in the diner. Amtrak has an incentive to sell as many boxed meals as possible. The boilerplate about maybe not always being available for all passengers is a disclaimer, not a business plan. They don't want to overstock, but with a little experience (which they might already have, via the Empire Builder) they can make reasonably accurate predictions.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new menu on the Starlight and Zephyr. Although not as much as I'm looking forward to seeing them run on time. I know, a long wait.


----------



## Anderson

So, we had a NARP/RPA Board conference call this week. From what we can tell:
(1) This _is_ a pilot program. Amtrak likely intends to pilot a few other ideas before settling on what to _actually_ do long-term.
(2) Amtrak had a similar "bright idea" on the Acelas some time back. It lasted all of two weeks.


----------



## Anderson

TiBike said:


> We don't know what the new food is going to be, since they've haven't rolled it out yet. But based on the description, it sounds better to me than what's served now.
> 
> It also sounds like a likely upgrade for coach passengers. These are meals that can be sold in the cafe, where the food on long distance trains is even worse than what's in the diner. Amtrak has an incentive to sell as many boxed meals as possible. The boilerplate about maybe not always being available for all passengers is a disclaimer, not a business plan. They don't want to overstock, but with a little experience (which they might already have, via the Empire Builder) they can make reasonably accurate predictions.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing the new menu on the Starlight and Zephyr. Although not as much as I'm looking forward to seeing them run on time. I know, a long wait.


Amtrak currently has an incentive to sell as much as they can in the diner. Remember, at least on the basis of space availability, Amtrak is _supposed_ to invite coach pax to eat in the dining car. However, management has been repeatedly told (via studies and reports) that on the LD trains, 30-40% of diner business is from coach passengers. They never cease to seem to be surprised or confused by this. In this context, I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak will chronically understock the meals.


----------



## Bob Dylan

If and when the "New and Improved" Meal Service spreads to ALLof the LD Trains it will be a work in progress as new things are tried, altered,eliminated or added to.

Hopefully Anderson and his Executive Team have lots of better ideas and plans including adding HOT Airline/Acela type meals for LD Trains, as well as Healthier Cafe Menu items. ( and replacing Pepsi with Coke would be a Winner in my book!)

Well see how this shakes out on the LSL and Cap, but @ a Minimum I expect the CONO ( CCC)and Cardinal ( VLII)to go to this concept.

Having this on the Western LD Trains is a terrible idea as has been said!

Wouldnt hurt to try it on the Starvation either! YMMV


----------



## TiBike

There's no reason to think Amtrak will deliberately understock anything. There are fewer barriers and perceived costs to buying a boxed meal in the cafe than a sit down meal in the diner, even if staff makes you welcome. Which they often don't, starting with the bossy announcements about making reservations that sound more like a threat than an invitation.

I'm reasonably familiar with how the diners work, but even so I can't predict how much I'm going to pay, how long I'm going to wait and what my meal will actually look like. In the cafe, I can instantly see what I'm getting and how much it'll cost. And I don't have make a reservation – I can eat whenever I want.

Bring it on.



Anderson said:


> Amtrak currently has an incentive to sell as much as they can in the diner. Remember, at least on the basis of space availability, Amtrak is _supposed_ to invite coach pax to eat in the dining car. However, management has been repeatedly told (via studies and reports) that on the LD trains, 30-40% of diner business is from coach passengers. They never cease to seem to be surprised or confused by this. In this context, I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak will chronically understock the meals.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.


I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.
Click to expand...

I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.


Those passengers make up some subset of the 2.4% of Eagle passengers that travel more than 2000 miles. Making business decisions based on the desires of less than 2.4% of customers is lunacy.


----------



## JRR

Anderson said:


> So, we had a NARP/RPA Board conference call this week. From what we can tell:
> 
> (1) This _is_ a pilot program. Amtrak likely intends to pilot a few other ideas before settling on what to _actually_ do long-term.
> 
> (2) Amtrak had a similar "bright idea" on the Acelas some time back. It lasted all of two weeks.


The staff referred to it as a “pilot “ program and went on to opine that in their experience, “pilot” programs are how these things are initiated.

Remember, this is just dining car staff speculating.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

cpotisch said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the scariest thing I've heard all week. Seriously. I've gotta say though that it seems difficult to put this in place on the multi-night routes. Taking the TE/Sunset (which I know might not last much longer anyway), people would be living off cold food and a very limited menu for days on end. It just becomes a much more difficult sell for anyone who is physically capable of taking an alternate form of transit. I guess we'll say, but if that happens, it might be the last straw for many LD pax.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure. Using the Texas Eagle as an example, with NARP's data sheet as reference, six of the top ten city pairs for ridership are less than 300 miles. For the vast majority of riders I can't imagine menu changes will have any effect. If you sort by revenue, which skews it towards long distance riders, I'm still not sure that it will trigger a mass exodus. If you use the Silver Star as an (even more drastic) example, a complete removal of dining car service on a 31 hour schedule did not lead to a plunge in ridership. Going back to the Eagle, which has a 32 hour schedule, only one of the top ten city pairs by revenue is longer than that. Obviously it's not an exact comparison because the Meteor overlaps to a large extent with the Star, but the fact that the former did not see a ridership jump after the latter lost the diner--in fact both declined in 2016 and the Star posted a greater increase last year--makes me think that the diner is not the make or break factor many people here portray it as.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m talking about the 61-65 hour TE/Sunset through train. That ride is three nights, so for anyone taking the train the trip much of the way, the new food service might be a big deal. And the same thing applies to other two night trains. The CZ is one of the flagship LD routes, and has very high ticket prices. Serving cold bagels and wraps for a three day, two night journey is really pushing it for those passengers.
Click to expand...

CHI-LAX is so irrelevant on the TE that it's not even on the top ten revenue pairs on that route. CHI-Tucson barely checks in at #10 and that trip is almost a half day less than Los Angeles and has no other quicker option available. CHI-Tucson is slightly longer than CHI-EMY on the CZ.

Even the SWC and CZ are still only approximately 20% sleeper passengers. The stat listed was 30%-40% of the diner's passengers are coach passengers but it's unknown (at least from that statistic) what % of coach passengers eat in the diner. I'd imagine half of even CZ/SWC passengers don't even eat in the diner car anyway and could care less if it went away.


----------



## Lonestar648

On the longer trains,refrigeration capacity will be an issue. If the CZ is running three sold out Sleepers for six meals CHI/EMY for 120 or more Sleeper passengers, crew, and some Coach sales, that means storage of over 1000 prepackaged meals in the Kitchen refrigeration. I don't know if they have that much space based on an average size meal tray plastic container


----------



## Palmetto

This will not be a problem when longer-running routes are chopped into segments.


----------



## Maverickstation

With the changes due to take place, Amtrak has not updated any of it's menus on its site,

Usually the menus are changed twice a year (October, and April), and some changes are easily predicted like offering

pancakes instead of the French Toast and visa versa.

That said, it will be very interesting to see what the LD national menu looks like when it is finally updated.

The only major changes are what is planned for the LSL, and the CO, but who knows whats in store for the other trains with dining cars.

Ken


----------



## tommylicious

All bad.


----------



## Steve4031

I just thought of another issue with the sleeper lounge in the lsl. The Boston sleeper is several cars away from where the viewliner dining car will be if it’s still positioned next to the nyp section. A hassle for those pax to access their cold stuff meals and complimentary drinks.

I wonder if the consist will be temporarily changed for this summer.

Imho they could shuffle the car order one normal operation resumes. For example:

Engine

Engine

Baggage car

Bos coach

Bos coach

Bos coach

Business class/lounge for bos section

Boston sleeper

Sleeper lounge

NYP sleeper

NYP sleeper

NYP lounge car

NYP coach

NYP coach

NYP coach

NYP baggage

There maybe more coaches but I think this is the same number of cars And usual iirc.


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 said:


> I just thought of another issue with the sleeper lounge in the lsl. The Boston sleeper is several cars away from where the viewliner dining car will be if it’s still positioned next to the nyp section. A hassle for those pax to access their cold stuff meals and complimentary drinks.
> 
> I wonder if the consist will be temporarily changed for this summer.
> 
> Imho they could shuffle the car order one normal operation resumes. For example:
> 
> Engine
> 
> Engine
> 
> Baggage car
> 
> Bos coach
> 
> Bos coach
> 
> Bos coach
> 
> Business class/lounge for bos section
> 
> Boston sleeper
> 
> Sleeper lounge
> 
> NYP sleeper
> 
> NYP sleeper
> 
> NYP lounge car
> 
> NYP coach
> 
> NYP coach
> 
> NYP coach
> 
> NYP baggage
> 
> There maybe more coaches but I think this is the same number of cars And usual iirc.


But that has the problem of coach pax from both sections walking through the BOS sleeper...


----------



## PVD

You don't need to segregate NY and BOS sleepers, none are going to NY. You probably won't need a NY bag. The only thing that would change what I just said is if they decide to drop cars in Albany to reduce overall length for service reasons in Boston.


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 was talking about what they could do once the LSL resumes normal service. In which case you do have to segregate the sleepers, and the proposed consist would have coach and business passengers walking through the Boston sleeper.


----------



## Steve4031

Oh I was assuming the Boston lounge was staffed Chicago to Albany. I forgot that it was not. This may not be the best set up then.


----------



## PVD

Oops... well, looking long term, the next reshuffling after return to normal could potentially involve placement of a Bag/dorm on one of the sections. I'm not sure what they do now is any worse than the proposal.


----------



## PVD

BC/Lounge goes CHI-BOS, the DC (temp AM2Dinette) is NYP-CHI. I don't know what the final plan for the summer is.


----------



## Lonestar648

Palmetto said:


> This will not be a problem when longer-running routes are chopped into segments.


If they do that, then food service will not be needed at all. Of course the true LD passengers will cease to travel or will fly. All the corridor discussion is also dependent on the host RR accepting the changes.


----------



## GBNorman

PDF Page 7 says it all. For the first time in its 47 years as of next Tuesday, Amtrak is closing in on break even. The FY17 loss, adjusted for inflation, is likely the lowest ever reported.

While this development is hardly a prompt for reducing the annual appropriation, and the record $1.9B granted for FY18 suggests it is not, that appropriation is becoming less necessary to move trains "over the road" and more for updating Amtrak owned road and facilities.

"Fresh Choice" Food and Beverage is simply a step towards that direction of reducing operating expenses; best advice - "live with it". If you choose not to ride, so be it.


----------



## TonyLemur

I just hope they don't touch dining cars on the CZ, EB, or Coast Starlight before my trip in September!


----------



## cpotisch

TonyLemur said:


> I just hope they don't touch dining cars on the CZ, EB, or Coast Starlight before my trip in September!


Fortunately those are “flagship” routes and are unlikely to take a hit like this particularly soon. If you were riding the CONO, TE, Cardinal, or even Sunset, you would have much more to worry about...


----------



## Steve4031

This might be what we are stuck with on overnight trains with 1 night. Would not work so well on trains with two nights.

However iirc there was a state that said only a small percentage rode end to end in first class or coach.


----------



## greatcats

Maybe they will just make things an old SP automat car and if the vending machines break down, too bad. Hope for a burrito lady. [emoji37]


----------



## Lonestar648

On the flagship runs, they sell it as an "upgraded" (cough) meal service. SCA has the gold down table out with a napkin table cloth, a rolled up napkin and plastic wear, maybe the meal set out uncovered, drink ready beside meal, something like hotel room service. Obviously, an extra SCA would be required to handle meal, bed, and stop duties, plus clean up post meal. It's a cold meal served for you in the privacy of your room. Just trying to think like a marketing person, except the big New York marketing folks probably only fly or maybe go on Acela. So they don't have a clue as to what is happening.


----------



## JoeBas

GBNorman said:


> "Fresh Choice" Food and Beverage is simply a step towards that direction of reducing operating expenses; best advice - "live with it". If you choose not to ride, so be it.


I love this attitude of "If you don't like it, buh bye, there's plenty of people behind you waiting for your spot".

Until there's not.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

JoeBas said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Fresh Choice" Food and Beverage is simply a step towards that direction of reducing operating expenses; best advice - "live with it". If you choose not to ride, so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I love this attitude of "If you don't like it, buh bye, there's plenty of people behind you waiting for your spot". Until there's not.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly he's also a regular customer of United Airlines so it's possible, at least from his perspective, that watching millions of people line up for lousy service is just par for the course.


----------



## JoeBas

Devil's Advocate said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Fresh Choice" Food and Beverage is simply a step towards that direction of reducing operating expenses; best advice - "live with it". If you choose not to ride, so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I love this attitude of "If you don't like it, buh bye, there's plenty of people behind you waiting for your spot". Until there's not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I remember correctly he's also a regular customer of United Airlines so it's possible, at least from his perspective, that watching millions of people line up for lousy service is just par for the course.
Click to expand...

Being a transplanted Houstonian, I can relate regarding United.

That said, the business landscape is LITTERED with the bones of companies and organizations who took for granted and betrayed their core customers chasing the whimsical, mythical "next generation", with the attitude of "We can do whatever we want, what are they going to do, stop using us????". They never seem to realize that in many cases, the answer is "yes".


----------



## railiner

greatcats said:


> Maybe they will just make things an old SP automat car and if the vending machines break down, too bad. Hope for a burrito lady. [emoji37]


The way it's going, you may not be so far off in your prediction...


If the worst does happen, I believe that will present great opportunities for enterprising entrepreneurs to fill the vacuum with some kind of alternate service...

Such as an 'app' on your smart phone that would let you choose from an excellent menu, order ahead, and have hot or cold meals delivered to you right at the platform on some of the stops enroute. Such a plan could work, even if the train were delayed. That would work out better than having scheduled meal stops at stations, like in the Harvey House era. And it would offer much greater choices...


----------



## PRR 60

JoeBas said:


> ...
> 
> That said, the business landscape is LITTERED with the bones of companies and organizations who took for granted and betrayed their core customers chasing the whimsical, mythical "next generation", with the attitude of "We can do whatever we want, what are they going to do, stop using us????". They never seem to realize that in many cases, the answer is "yes".


Amtrak's "core customer" is not the long distance passenger that uses a dining car. 88% of Amtrak passengers ride trains that do not have dining cars, and of the 12% that ride trains with a dining car, some significant percentage of them do not use it. If about 1/3 of the passengers on a long distance train do not use the dining car, that reduces the utilization to about 8% of all Amtrak customers. Thus, for about 92% of Amtrak's customers, changes in dining car service will have no impact on their on board experience and perception of value.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> If the worst does happen, I believe that will present great opportunities for enterprising entrepreneurs to fill the vacuum with some kind of alternate service...Such as an 'app' on your smart phone that would let you choose from an excellent menu, order ahead, and have hot or cold meals delivered to you right at the platform on some of the stops enroute. Such a plan could work, even if the train were delayed. That would work out better than having scheduled meal stops at stations, like in the Harvey House era. And it would offer much greater choices...


There are a few problems I see with this premise.

1. Even when Amtrak is on-time at the final terminus they can still be off by hours at several midpoints along the route. Not knowing when your food will be needed or how much time you'll have to deliver it would make such a service rather inefficient.

2. In many locations the train and platform area are off limits to vendors and/or under the control of a third party. That would make it difficult to serve passengers quickly and efficiently.

3. The vast majority of Amtrak's network receives two trains or less per day and in some cases as little as once every few days. If only a few people order food on a given train do you deliver it at a loss, cancel the order(s) due to insufficient demand, or raise prices to the point that even one single entree has made enough revenue to pay a driver to sit and wait for the train to arrive and for the customer to walk off premises to collect it?

4. If anything goes wrong there probably isn't enough time to make it right before your customer is on the move again. That could mean a relatively high ratio of displeased customers, an excessive number of negative reviews, and difficult to defend charge-back requests.

5. From a commercial business perspective you can't simply start with a burrito lady and just scale up. The reason the burrito lady remains viable is because her whole business is under the table. If she had to maintain a licensed kitchen, hire employees and pay them a legal salary, collect taxes and pay an access fee to use the station facilities, and cover all the other usual business expenses she'd never make a profit.

If there were one location where a third party could make and sell food for eating on board Amtrak, and be able to provide that food in a timely fashion directly to passengers, it would be Chicago Union Station. The problem there is that Amtrak owns/controls the relevant parts of the station and probably wouldn't be willing to allow a third party to cannibalize their own dining service.



PRR 60 said:


> Amtrak's "core customer" is not the long distance passenger that uses a dining car. 88% of Amtrak passengers ride trains that do not have dining cars, and of the 12% that ride trains with a dining car, some significant percentage of them do not use it. If about 1/3 of the passengers on a long distance train do not use the dining car, that reduces the utilization to about 8% of all Amtrak customers. Thus, for about 92% of Amtrak's customers, changes in dining car service will have no impact on their on board experience and perception of value.


If anything abandoning the long distance network will probably make Amtrak stronger financially. Which is why those of us who live outside the inward focused commuter corridors are rightfully concerned whenever service or amenity levels undergo yet another supply side revision. Personally I think some of the reasons so few people use the dining car is because the food quality is poor, the cost is high, the service is slow, and the staff are rude. But I guess you can't teach a dead horse new tricks.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they will just make things an old SP automat car and if the vending machines break down, too bad. Hope for a burrito lady. [emoji37]
> 
> 
> 
> The way it's going, you may not be so far off in your prediction...
> 
> 
> If the worst does happen, I believe that will present great opportunities for enterprising entrepreneurs to fill the vacuum with some kind of alternate service...
> 
> Such as an 'app' on your smart phone that would let you choose from an excellent menu, order ahead, and have hot or cold meals delivered to you right at the platform on some of the stops enroute. Such a plan could work, even if the train were delayed. That would work out better than having scheduled meal stops at stations, like in the Harvey House era. And it would offer much greater choices...
Click to expand...

For example, e-Catering on Indian Railways is already a thriving concern with more delivery stations coming on line as time passes.

https://www.travelkhana.com/tkblog/tag/e-catering

It is probably a little harder to operate such a thing profitably when there is only one train or less to serve per day though.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they will just make things an old SP automat car and if the vending machines break down, too bad. Hope for a burrito lady. [emoji37]
> 
> 
> 
> The way it's going, you may not be so far off in your prediction...
> 
> 
> If the worst does happen, I believe that will present great opportunities for enterprising entrepreneurs to fill the vacuum with some kind of alternate service...
> 
> Such as an 'app' on your smart phone that would let you choose from an excellent menu, order ahead, and have hot or cold meals delivered to you right at the platform on some of the stops enroute. Such a plan could work, even if the train were delayed. That would work out better than having scheduled meal stops at stations, like in the Harvey House era. And it would offer much greater choices...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For example, e-Catering on Indian railways is already a thriving concern with more delviery stations coming on line as time passes.
> 
> https://www.travelkhana.com/tkblog/tag/e-catering
> 
> It is probably a little harder to operate such a thing profitably when there is only one train or less to serve per day though.
Click to expand...

That is the sort of operation that I had imagined...

As for Amtrak objecting to vendors serving their patrons in that manner...how could they, and why would they, as it would add to their customer's travel experience, in light of them not deeming it feasible to do itself, any longer?

Even now, I believe companies like Uber are already in this business, or starting it for home restaurant deliveries. No special catering would have to be set up exclusively to handle this...just ordering from existing restaurants and delivering it trainside would be all that would be required...

And it could be done whenever the passenger feels hungry, regardless of where the train happens to be at mealtime.


----------



## jis

The main difference between delivering food to a static location vs. to a moving location is dealing with delayed trains. IR e-Catering actually does a good integration with rail operations and attempts to account for delayed trains so that food is delivered close to meal times irrespective of the location of the train. In order to accommodate this they have to stick to a core fixed menu set which they know they can deliver wherever, and they can fall back to if the food needs to be delivered at a location other than the normal scheduled location.

This in some sense is merely applying technology to a long standing practice on IR which has served it well for over a hundred years. Very few IR trains actually had on board food service ever. Restaurant Cars were few and far between, only to be found in the so called "Crack Mail Trains". for the rest it was ordering from track-side prep centers. The method used on LD trains was for the food service crew on the trains, and often this was just the Conductor and his staff - who took orders from passengers and telegraphed them ahead to the stop expected to be at around meal time. The food was prepared there and was served on the train when it arrived at the stop. It was a standard menu set with Veg and Nonveg and so called Western offering. There is even a recipe called "Rail Curry" that is even now popular outside of any service on a train. I remember back in the day ordering "Rice-Curry" or "Chicken Curry Rice" lunch or dinner. Breakfast menu included either an Omelette with Toast or Vegetable Cutlet with Toast and of course copious amounts of Tea with Milk and Sugar. It was not gourmet meal. But it was adequate and tasteful, and in most cases delivered close to meal time.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> The main difference between delivering food to a static location vs. to a moving location is dealing with delayed trains. IR e-Catering actually does a good integration with rail operations and attempts to account for delayed trains so that food is delivered close to meal times irrespective of the location of the train. In order to accommodate this they have to stick to a core fixed menu set which they know they can deliver wherever, and they can fall back to if the food needs to be delivered at a location other than the normal scheduled location.
> 
> This in some sense is merely applying technology to a long standing practice on IR which has served it well for over a hundred years. Very few IR trains actually had on board food service ever. Restaurant Cars were few and far between, only to be found in the so called "Crack Mail Trains". for the rest it was ordering from track-side prep centers. The method used on LD trains was for the food service crew on the trains, and often this was just the Conductor and his staff - who took orders from passengers and telegraphed them ahead to the stop expected to be at around meal time. The food was prepared there and was served on the train when it arrived at the stop. It was a standard menu set with Veg and Nonveg and so called Western offering. There is even a recipe called "Rail Curry" that is even now popular outside of any service on a train. I remember back in the day ordering "Rice-Curry" or "Chicken Curry Rice" lunch or dinner. Breakfast menu included either an Omelette with Toast or Vegetable Cutlet with Toast and of course copious amounts of Tea with Milk and Sugar. It was not gourmet meal. But it was adequate and tasteful, and in most cases delivered close to meal time.


What’s IR? It was probably mentioned but I either can’t remember or didn’t see it...


----------



## keelhauled

On further thought, a little detective work builds character.


----------



## Lonestar648

Any vendor delivering may have to have the station owner's permission, legal responsibility in case of an accident has to be addressed. More and more security at train stations is becoming a concern. Stops for a delivery would have to be at service stops where the train dwell is long enough to complete the delivery(s), otherwise if the train is running late dwell time could be barely 2 minutes. I really do not see this working, logistically nor with a profit incentive for the vendor.


----------



## cpotisch

Indian rail?


----------



## PRR 60

cpotisch said:


> Indian rail?


Indian Railways


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Indian rail?


Yup. Indian Railways.

The outfit that manages the entire F&B service provisioning either departmentally (on some trains) or through contracts (on most trains and stations) is IRCTC (Indian Railway Catering and Tourism Corporation), a wholly owned subsidiary of Indian Railways. It also manages the enormous Reservation and e-Ticket system of Indian Railways.

To think of it in terms of Amtrak, imagine if Amtrak had a wholly owned subsidiary separate corporation to handle F&B and Reservation and Ticketing (but curiously, not car attendants), i.e. almost all Customer Facing operations so as to keep the cost accounting separate from operations, and capital constructions, that would be the equivalent of IRCTC. Of course it is another matter that IR's passenger operations is about ten times the size of Amtrak in dollar terms and much larger in terms of passenger and passenger miles per year. That is because individual ticket prices are much less than on Amtrak.


----------



## JRR

If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30][emoji29][emoji26]


----------



## keelhauled

JRR said:


> If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30][emoji29][emoji26]


Sleeper passengers are a minority. 21% of total passengers on the California Zephyr travel in sleepers, 19% on the CL, 9% on the Cardinal, 14% on the CONO, 17% on the CS, 11% on the Crescent, 17% on the EB, 11% on the LSL, 12% on the SM, 10% on the SS, 17% on the SWC, 19% on the SL, and 10% on the TE. In addition to being a minority in ridership, sleeper passengers are also a minority in revenue, although the difference is narrower.


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30]☹[emoji29][emoji26]
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers are a minority. 21% of total passengers on the California Zephyr travel in sleepers, 19% on the CL, 9% on the Cardinal, 14% on the CONO, 17% on the CS, 11% on the Crescent, 17% on the EB, 11% on the LSL, 12% on the SM, 10% on the SS, 17% on the SWC, 19% on the SL, and 10% on the TE. In addition to being a minority in ridership, sleeper passengers are also a minority in revenue, although the difference is narrower.
Click to expand...

But they still tend to be net profitable. If sleeper passengers bring on two or three times the revenue of coach pax (which exceeds the cost of offering the service), it still makes fiscal sense. It wouldnt make sense to just replace all coaches with sleepers, because you might only get 20% occupancy, but by having a couple cars to accommodate that relatively small number of passengers, is not bad. If the added revenue exceeds the added operating costs, regardless of how small the market is, it is still a profitable service.


----------



## JoeBas

PRR 60 said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> That said, the business landscape is LITTERED with the bones of companies and organizations who took for granted and betrayed their core customers chasing the whimsical, mythical "next generation", with the attitude of "We can do whatever we want, what are they going to do, stop using us????". They never seem to realize that in many cases, the answer is "yes".
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's "core customer" is not the long distance passenger that uses a dining car. 88% of Amtrak passengers ride trains that do not have dining cars, and of the 12% that ride trains with a dining car, some significant percentage of them do not use it. If about 1/3 of the passengers on a long distance train do not use the dining car, that reduces the utilization to about 8% of all Amtrak customers. Thus, for about 92% of Amtrak's customers, changes in dining car service will have no impact on their on board experience and perception of value.
Click to expand...

Those stats are skewed toward the NEC, and you know it, and it's a bit disingenuous to use them. I guarantee you that it will have an impact on their on board experience and perception of value if people who ride the LD network no longer ride the LD network, and the LD network goes away, and with it Congress' support, and they have to pay the full cost of their ride, and their fare goes up 250%.


----------



## Ryan

Reality is skewed towards the NEC as well. Guess where Amtrak's "core customers" are?

(hint: they're in the top right corner of the map)


----------



## JoeBas

It's been said before, and I'll say it again. 435+100+1. Those are Amtrak's "Core customers".

If the Top Right Corner of the map wants to go it alone, fine. But not a dime from the rest of the country!


----------



## cpotisch

JoeBas said:


> It's been said before, and I'll say it again. 435+100+1. Those are Amtrak's "Core customers".
> 
> If the Top Right Corner of the map wants to go it alone, fine. But not a dime from the rest of the country!


I’m a moron today, so I’m gonna ask, what does “435+100+1” mean?


----------



## Ryan

On balance, every state the the NEC runs through sends more money to the Federal government than they receive back in the form of Federal programs.

That's a game that the rest of the country would lose.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been said before, and I'll say it again. 435+100+1. Those are Amtrak's "Core customers".
> 
> If the Top Right Corner of the map wants to go it alone, fine. But not a dime from the rest of the country!
> 
> 
> 
> I’m a moron today, so I’m gonna ask, what does “435+100+1” mean?
Click to expand...

How many members are there in the House and the Senate?


----------



## JoeBas

Ryan said:


> On balance, every state the the NEC runs through sends more money to the Federal government than they receive back in the form of Federal programs.
> 
> That's a game that the rest of the country would lose.


If you think the rest of this country won't cut their noses off to spite their own face, you must not get to a lot of the rest of this country.


----------



## jis

I don’t think the downgrade of dining service will cause anybody to decide to unfund Amtrak. As a matter of fact, I don’t even think replacement of many of today’s LD trains by a bunch of medium distance trains will cause such either. Completely removing all service from the LD routes of today will cause that bridge to be crossed perhaps, since that would completely breach the original compact.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> But they still tend to be net profitable. If sleeper passengers bring on two or three times the revenue of coach pax (which exceeds the cost of offering the service), it still makes fiscal sense. It wouldnt make sense to just replace all coaches with sleepers, because you might only get 20% occupancy, but by having a couple cars to accommodate that relatively small number of passengers, is not bad. If the added revenue exceeds the added operating costs, regardless of how small the market is, it is still a profitable service.


Whether they are net profitable or not depends on a myriad of different factors, very few of which are publicly available to you or I (especially since the recent change to the monthly reports), and any of the numbers can be twisted any which way by people both inside Amtrak and out, depending on the point they want to make. Which is why I avoided drawing any conclusions about anything.


----------



## Skyline

keelhauled said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30][emoji29][emoji26]
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers are a minority. 21% of total passengers on the California Zephyr travel in sleepers, 19% on the CL, 9% on the Cardinal, 14% on the CONO, 17% on the CS, 11% on the Crescent, 17% on the EB, 11% on the LSL, 12% on the SM, 10% on the SS, 17% on the SWC, 19% on the SL, and 10% on the TE. In addition to being a minority in ridership, sleeper passengers are also a minority in revenue, although the difference is narrower.
Click to expand...

The percentage is low, the prices are high, and YET many sleepers are sold out months in advance. So that percentage thing is misleading. Put ample sleepers in a consist and watch the percentage rise on many days!


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Skyline said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30][emoji29][emoji26]
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers are a minority. 21% of total passengers on the California Zephyr travel in sleepers, 19% on the CL, 9% on the Cardinal, 14% on the CONO, 17% on the CS, 11% on the Crescent, 17% on the EB, 11% on the LSL, 12% on the SM, 10% on the SS, 17% on the SWC, 19% on the SL, and 10% on the TE. In addition to being a minority in ridership, sleeper passengers are also a minority in revenue, although the difference is narrower.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The percentage is low, the prices are high, and YET many sleepers are sold out months in advance. So that percentage thing is misleading. Put ample sleepers in a consist and watch the percentage rise on many days!
Click to expand...

They just have to find them.


----------



## cpotisch

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the thought is that Amtrak can become profitable by eliminating LD trains, then why not just eliminate the sleepers which will eliminate all but the most diehard of LD passengers so that no one will be left to complain?[emoji30][emoji29][emoji26]
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper passengers are a minority. 21% of total passengers on the California Zephyr travel in sleepers, 19% on the CL, 9% on the Cardinal, 14% on the CONO, 17% on the CS, 11% on the Crescent, 17% on the EB, 11% on the LSL, 12% on the SM, 10% on the SS, 17% on the SWC, 19% on the SL, and 10% on the TE. In addition to being a minority in ridership, sleeper passengers are also a minority in revenue, although the difference is narrower.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The percentage is low, the prices are high, and YET many sleepers are sold out months in advance. So that percentage thing is misleading. Put ample sleepers in a consist and watch the percentage rise on many days!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They just have to find them.
Click to expand...

The Viewliner II sleepers should be arriving early 2019, and it is expected they’ll be used to increase capacity on some of the higher demand sleeper routes...


----------



## JRR

My point was not about the % of passengers who ride the sleepers on LD trains but rather, without then, very few passengers would have any desire to ride LD.

There is a lot more happening on an LD train than just those who want to ride LD.

The fact is that an LD train makes possible any number of trips between various stops along the way without having to take into account connections to make those trips.

Additionally, the sleepers contribute or at least should contribute to profitability of the route.

I view the food portion as being an enhancement to the service which makes a high charge more palatable to the potential sleeper passenger. It F&B is profitable, that would be a bonus but there is nothing wrong with a loss leader in business if it gets people in the door. Once you get them there, you can up sell or otherwise exploit the opportunity. ( wine etc.).


----------



## Blackwolf

Remove the Sleepers, the Long Distance train dies.

If higher/premium accommodations are such a drag, I can't fathom for an instant why there is a single First/Business/Premium Coach seat flying anymore. I mean, shouldn't all airlines be more like Southwest and RyanAir?


----------



## jis

Blackwolf said:


> Remove the Sleepers, the Long Distance train dies.
> 
> If higher/premium accommodations are such a drag, I can't fathom for an instant why there is a single First/Business/Premium Coach seat flying anymore. I mean, shouldn't all airlines be more like Southwest and RyanAir?


For domestic flying, AFAICT the First Class Cabin is there mostly to give free upgrades to high mileage customers as a perk. It is amazing what proportion of a typical First Class cabin in domestic flights is populated by complementary upgrades. Also a significant proportion after that are continuations from international upper class legs. The dynamics of upper class usage domestically is quite interesting these days.

One should also note that Southwest and Ryanair are either the largest or close to the largest ariline in their market and certainly at least as much if not more profitable than the full service carriers. That ought to also say something about the nature of the market.

As for LD trains and Sleeper, The late lamented Pioneer, when it started originally, was a Coach and Cafe train that ran overnight and it never came as close to breaking even as it did back then after all the bells and whistles were added to it. Unfortunately, now it is close to impossible to start an overnight Coach and Cafe train in this country, and the only remaining one is the 65/66/67. It is as if, unless the top 10-15% are catered to, the remaining 90% are not worthy of being provided any service. Why does that make any sense whatsoever?


----------



## Blackwolf

jis said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remove the Sleepers, the Long Distance train dies.
> 
> If higher/premium accommodations are such a drag, I can't fathom for an instant why there is a single First/Business/Premium Coach seat flying anymore. I mean, shouldn't all airlines be more like Southwest and RyanAir?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For domestic flying, AFAICT the First Class Cabin is there mostly to give free upgrades to high mileage customers as a perk. It is amazing what proportion of a typical First Class cabin in domestic flights is populated by complementary upgrades. Also a significant proportion after that are continuations from international upper class legs. The dynamics of upper class usage domestically is quite interesting these days.
> 
> One should also note that Southwest and Ryanair are either the largest or close to the largest ariline in their market and certainly at least as much if not more profitable than the full service carriers. That ought to also say something about the nature of the market.
> 
> As for LD trains and Sleeper, The late lamented Pioneer, when it started originally, was a Coach and Cafe train that ran overnight and it never came as close to breaking even as it did back then after all the bells and whistles were added to it. Unfortunately, now it is close to impossible to start an overnight Coach and Cafe train in this country, and the only remaining one is the 65/66/67. It is as if, unless the top 10-15% are catered to, the remaining 90% are not worthy of being provided any service. Why does that make any sense whatsoever?
Click to expand...

It makes sense in the light of providing value for the money spent by the traveler. As I've advocated in the past, Amtrak's Sleeper offerings are an anachronistic product in many ways; they're not something a majority of prospective customers can easily relate to or will be knowledgeable about when viewing the Amtrak booking page. In comparing it to domestic airline travel, the business of offering upper class upgrades as a perk to high mileage customers is not even slightly a factor for Amtrak. Heck, absent using vouchers, Amtrak can't even do such a thing for AGR premium customers on the short-distance lines like Acela and State Route trains. It is a totally different business (that needs some overhauling.)

For an over-night route, a second premium class of service should unquestionably be offered. Full-scale sleeper service at best, or lie-flat seats as an alternative. If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The fact that so many people, including members of this board, are convinced that an overnight train must be run with full dining car and sleepers is a problem for LD trains.

The Lake Shore and Capitol do not serve that many meals... they are a natural choice to drop the "full dining" cars. Paying a full diner staff for - 1 breakfast and 1 lunch (only to NYC Bound pax) on the eastbound Lake shore is not a good use of money.

Now the western trains that serve several full meal services are a different story.


----------



## TiBike

Blackwolf said:


> If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.


Suppose the Starlight's schedule was changed or service was otherwise redesigned so that you had day time train service in Chico, maybe morning southbound/evening northbound. Would you consider that a good trade for dining cars or even sleepers? I don't know what the coming changes, if any, will look like, but trade offs of that sort are an optimistic (from my perspective) interpretation of the rumors. What do you think?


----------



## Blackwolf

TiBike said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Amtrak becomes nothing more than Southwest on wheels, I am one of those coveted younger customers who will cease to consider Amtrak for my travel needs entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> Suppose the Starlight's schedule was changed or service was otherwise redesigned so that you had day time train service in Chico, maybe morning southbound/evening northbound. Would you consider that a good trade for dining cars or even sleepers? I don't know what the coming changes, if any, will look like, but trade offs of that sort are an optimistic (from my perspective) interpretation of the rumors. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I am a supporter of Dining Cars; I'm not a supporter of how the Amtrak Dining Cars are run. The operations are extremely inefficient, the food quality is poor and the service is typically mediocre to poor with a few outlier experiences. The reasons are convoluted, are seemingly insurmountable in the environment that Amtrak operates in, and are IMHO at the root of why there are such high losses in food service on Amtrak. For trips lasting multiple meal periods, be they State-Supported routes or Long Distance named trains, I am an adherent supporter of having _meal service_ and not just processed edibles for sale with the service likened to that of an AM/PM gas station attendant. There needs to be _great customer __service__ and quality selection._ The methods of providing those two items are ripe for change, but you have to retain high standards for service and quality at all costs.

The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having _more frequencies_ to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)

I have never heard anyone make the claim that Sleepers lose money. Especially at the prices they are charging! And I would go out on a limb and say that the one-night routes may even successfully transition to lie-flat service as an alternative to full sleepers; this includes the Starlight.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.

I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.


----------



## Blackwolf

Bob Dylan said:


> The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.
> 
> I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.


The Starlight is a one night train.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Blackwolf said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Starlight is a Western LD Train that runs for TWO Nights between LAX and SEA.
> 
> I know lie flat seats on the Airlines are nice, but not for a 2 Day/2Night trip on Trains unless Amtrak wants to consider going back to the Slumber Coach as a less expensive alternate to Sleeping Car Rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> The Starlight is a one night train.
Click to expand...

My bad, I was thinking of arriving into SEA in the dark.Senior Moment!( But it is a 33 Hour ride from LAX to SEA so lets say its a Hybrid, a Day and a half Train.)YMMV


----------



## TiBike

Blackwolf said:


> The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having _more frequencies_ to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)


That's what I meant by "otherwise redesigned". If the result was better timed and more frequent trains, would it be a good trade for cutting or reducing diner and/or sleeper service? The ideal solution is to do everything without cutting anything. But it's not much of a stretch to think that's not an option. So what's more important?


----------



## Lonestar648

Changing the time of the trains is next to impossible with companies like UP. UP has done everything possible to prevent the SL from becoming a daily TE CHI/LAX. Only lots more ransom money and even then they may not agree, The Host RR would be happy to be rid of passenger rail, so if LD is ever cut, the hosts will never allow it to return. Cutting the LD trains to be only Coach would definitely reduce the number of travelers, those who go end to end on their trip in the sleeper, and those who mix day Coach and night Sleeper, because they can not tolerate sitting up all night. If you cut out all vacation traveling on Amtrak and focus just on the millennial business travel or non vacation travel , the LD format doesn't fit.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

cpotisch said:


> The Viewliner II sleepers should be arriving early 2019,


Um, no.


----------



## jis

AmtrakLKL said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner II sleepers should be arriving early 2019,
> 
> 
> 
> Um, no.
Click to expand...

Is there any estimate or expectation at all at this point? Or is it now purely an "as and when we can" affair? How's the coddling of CAF coming along?


----------



## Lonestar648

To me the question is what is being deliver this month from CAF, if anything.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> To me the question is what is being deliver this month from CAF, if anything.


CAF delivered three diners a couple weeks ago, which is more than any previous month (past deliveries were almost always two cars). There are six diners currently left to be delivered, so if CAF averages two a month, all the diners could be in Amtrak's hands by the end of July. Then, if CAF takes a two month hiatus as they switch over to construction of the bag-dorms, the first of those would be delivered around October. There are 10 of those, so at a rate of two cars a month, bag-dorm deliveries would be finished around March.

Then if they take another month or two to switch over to the sleepers, we could very well the sleepers in the first half of 2019. That's obviously a lot of speculation, but it doesn't seem implausible.


----------



## Ryan

Except for the part where the person that works for Amtrak said that it was.


----------



## OBS

Per Amtrak corporate personnel, the completion of delivery for Viewliner sleepers is the summer of 2020....


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> Per Amtrak corporate personnel, the completion of delivery for Viewliner sleepers is the summer of 2020....


Obviously completion will take MUCH longer, but to see the first of the sleepers...


----------



## Blackwolf

TiBike said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to your question regarding the Starlight is a negative. I would not support that, because it would simply mean shoving the burden to another community that has service. Just because Chico, Redding, and Dunsmiur have awful calling times does not mean the answer should be a coin-toss. As others have stated, the answer is having _more frequencies_ to serve the stops. I believe there is more than enough ridership already, with a large amount of growth potential, to provide two more round-trip services between Redding and Sacramento with stops along the route in Red Bluff, Chico, Live Oak, and Yuba City/Marysville. Keep the Starlight on its current schedule (and make sure the darn train runs well-maintained and on time!)
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I meant by "otherwise redesigned". If the result was better timed and more frequent trains, would it be a good trade for cutting or reducing diner and/or sleeper service? The ideal solution is to do everything without cutting anything. But it's not much of a stretch to think that's not an option. So what's more important?
Click to expand...

The loss of diners and/or sleepers has no bearing on this particular scenario, though. Any additional frequencies, outside of a second Starlight running opposite the current schedule, would be Amtrak in name only. I foresee the reasonably realistic possibility of California outright divorcing Amtrak from the CalTrans routes at some point in the future, especially if the National Network is dramatically cut back. There is not a whole lot outside of networking that keep the California routes in the Amtrak family; any additional trains or frequencies under 750 miles would be creations of Sacramento and not Washington DC.

There is little to no correlation. If anything, the only correlation would be that additional State trains on the same route would actually _strengthen_ the LD product and add revenue to the Sleeper service (which in likelihood would add revenue to Diners as well.) However, reducing and/or eliminating Sleeper/Diners would not harm or impact short-distance corridors in the slightest.


----------



## cpotisch

Aren't the state trains just funded by CalTrans, but equipment is bought and operated by Amtrak?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Aren't the state trains just funded by CalTrans, but equipment is bought and operated by Amtrak?


Equipment is bought by CalTrans, not Amtrak. At least the new locomotives and cars are owned by CalTrans, not Amtrak. Amtrak currently holds the operating contract. That may or may not last going forward.


----------



## niemi24s

This may be a real dumb question, but here it is.

After 1 June 2018 if the CL has a SSL (in addition to the "private café or lounge car" for the sleeper passengers") will the snack bar located downstairs in the SSL have a menu like this one... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...with hot breakfast and lunch/dinner items?


----------



## tricia

niemi24s said:


> This may be a real dumb question, but here it is.
> 
> After 1 June 2018 if the CL has a SSL (in addition to the "private café or lounge car" for the sleeper passengers") will the snack bar located downstairs in the SSL have a menu like this one... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...with hot breakfast and lunch/dinner items?


No stupid questions, only stupid answers. But your link doesn't work.


----------



## niemi24s

Hmmm. It's what I get with a Google search for "Amtrak National Cafe Car Menu", or this: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf Looks like I just messed up posting the link. This one works now.


----------



## jis

We will know soon enough. Afterall 1 June is now less than a month away


----------



## niemi24s

My reason for asking was if this "café or lounge car" is indeed private and for sole use of sleeping car passengers (as stated by Amtrak) then it seems like the only place left for coach passengers to get something to eat is a SSL on the CL - and I don't even know if the current CL _has_ a SSL in its consist.

But I'd think Amtrak would have to provide a place for coach pax to get food. Maybe.


----------



## keelhauled

There was no mention in the original announcement of any changes to coach food service or the cafe car, so I don't know what the point is of creating speculation that doesn't even have a tangential connection to reality.


----------



## cpotisch

niemi24s said:


> And I don't even know if the current CL _has_ a SSL in its consist.


It does. However it's unstaffed, and passengers get their food from the lounge end of the CCC.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

keelhauled said:


> There was no mention in the original announcement of any changes to coach food service or the cafe car, so I don't know what the point is of creating speculation that doesn't even have a tangential connection to reality.


It's a legit question. Will 1 LSA serve as the host for the "Sleeper Lounge" and the cafe attrndant? Or will a second LSA be added to the train and staff the cafe of the SSL?

The end result will be a cafe window with the standard cafe menu, but it's location is currently in question. It seems odd that you would remove staff to save money and then add a staff member (another LSA), but hey this is Amtrak!


----------



## niemi24s

Well, I just knew I'd get a ration of **** for asking (Post #551 and its "Like This") but for someone who doesn't make a career of riding Amtrak (about every 2 years for me and never on the CL) I asked simply because I didn't know and couldn't find the answer with any search engine.

My thanks to cpotisch and crescent-Zephyr for the meaningful and non-snarky replies.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no mention in the original announcement of any changes to coach food service or the cafe car, so I don't know what the point is of creating speculation that doesn't even have a tangential connection to reality.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a legit question. Will 1 LSA serve as the host for the "Sleeper Lounge" and the cafe attrndant? Or will a second LSA be added to the train and staff the cafe of the SSL?
> 
> The end result will be a cafe window with the standard cafe menu, but it's location is currently in question. It seems odd that you would remove staff to save money and then add a staff member (another LSA), but hey this is Amtrak!
Click to expand...

There is something to be said for making the entire Sleeper Lounge car exclusive to sleeper pax, including the snack counter end. And they're getting rid of all the waiters in the CCC, so even if they're is now one more LSA, it's still fewer staff overall.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Oh yeah, it could certainly go either way. The "diner" portion would be the sleeper lounge, even if the cafe window was still open to all passebfers.

But yes, having the cafe window become the "private bar" for the sleeper passengers could be very classy if done right.


----------



## Lonestar648

I suspect that since the LSA will have to be active in helping the SCAs with meals, plus provide drink service, the LSA would NOT have time to run the Cafe. I expect the Cafe would return to the lower level of the SSL. Until June 1, no one knows, plus after a few days, I would expect some quick corrections, so maybe it is best to see where everything is on July 1st or August 1st.


----------



## Ryan

Answered aaaaaallllllllllllll the way back on page two.

Sleeper lounge will be exclusive. Other car will be an SSL. One LSA between them.



KnightRail said:


> New consists:
> 
> 29/30 Capital Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> TransDorm - 39000 series
> 
> Sleepers - 32000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge
> 
> *Sightseer Lounge - 33000 series
> 
> Coaches - 31000/34000 series
> 
> 48/49 Lake Shore Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s/P32
> 
> Baggage(BOS) - 61000 series
> 
> Sleeper(BOS) - 62000 series
> 
> *Cafe/Business(BOS) - 48100 series
> 
> Coaches(BOS) - 25000 series
> 
> Coaches - 25000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge - 68000 series [New CAF diner operating as a sleeper lounge, something that has been foreshadowed here for some time now]
> 
> Sleepers - 62000 series
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> (*) staffed with one Lead Service Attendant(LSA)


----------



## Lonestar648

One LSA working two cars?? I don't see that lasting long. You have to reduce the hours the cafe is open.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ryan, that post seems to read the car with the asterisk is staffed with a LSA. Were you meaning staffed with 1 LSA each?


----------



## CAMISSY55

Ryan said:


> Answered aaaaaallllllllllllll the way back on page two.
> 
> Sleeper lounge will be exclusive. Other car will be an SSL. One LSA between them.
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> New consists:
> 
> 29/30 Capital Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> TransDorm - 39000 series
> 
> Sleepers - 32000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge
> 
> *Sightseer Lounge - 33000 series
> 
> Coaches - 31000/34000 series
> 
> 48/49 Lake Shore Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s/P32
> 
> Baggage(BOS) - 61000 series
> 
> Sleeper(BOS) - 62000 series
> 
> *Cafe/Business(BOS) - 48100 series
> 
> Coaches(BOS) - 25000 series
> 
> Coaches - 25000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge - 68000 series [New CAF diner operating as a sleeper lounge, something that has been foreshadowed here for some time now]
> 
> Sleepers - 62000 series
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> (*) staffed with one Lead Service Attendant(LSA)
Click to expand...

I read that to mean there would be one LSA per car, for a total of two LSAs onboard each of the consists.


----------



## jis

Me too. It is definitely quite ambiguous. I find it hard to believe that a single LSA can practically serve two cars that are separated from each other by additional cars in between. That is why I chose the more believable interpretation of one LSA per car.


----------



## Ryan

Reading it again, I think that you're probably right, one LSA in each car makes far more sense.


----------



## niemi24s

cpotisch said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't even know if the current CL _has_ a SSL in its consist.
> 
> 
> 
> It does. However it's unstaffed, and passengers get their food from the lounge end of the CCC.
Click to expand...

Does this mean that the lounge end of the CCC serves from this menu... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...and that warm food of some sort may actually available to sleeper car passengers on the CL for breakfast and dinner after 1 June 2018 if paid for? Just like coach passengers?


----------



## tommylicious

niemi24s said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't even know if the current CL _has_ a SSL in its consist.
> 
> 
> 
> It does. However it's unstaffed, and passengers get their food from the lounge end of the CCC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does this mean that the lounge end of the CCC serves from this menu... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...and that warm food of some sort may actually available to sleeper car passengers on the CL for breakfast and dinner after 1 June 2018 if paid for? Just like coach passengers?
Click to expand...

Warmth implies energy consumption and labor, both of which act contrariwise to cost minimization. Everything will be cold-- well, ambient room temperature more likely.


----------



## cpotisch

tommylicious said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't even know if the current CL _has_ a SSL in its consist.
> 
> 
> 
> It does. However it's unstaffed, and passengers get their food from the lounge end of the CCC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does this mean that the lounge end of the CCC serves from this menu... https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/national/National-CafeCar-Menu-Amtrak-0617.pdf ...and that warm food of some sort may actually available to sleeper car passengers on the CL for breakfast and dinner after 1 June 2018 if paid for? Just like coach passengers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Warmth implies energy consumption and labor, both of which act contrariwise to cost minimization. Everything will be cold-- well, ambient room temperature more likely.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt they'll be taking away the heated options from the cafe cars any time soon.

And just because management has been making some questionable cost cutting decisions doesn't mean they are deliberately coming up with inherently terrible ideas, just to give riders food poisoning, as you seem to be suggesting lately.

There are significant expenditures involved in offering a full, hot meal served by a waiter in the dining car. It costs virtually nothing to have the snack bar attendant microwave a pizza.


----------



## keelhauled

Why don't we return to the evidence at hand, which can be found in the FIRST and SECOND pages of this topic. Exhibit A: Amtrak's press release, which says repeatedly that it refers to sleeping car passengers and the diner. No reference, either explicit or implied, is made to coach passengers or the existing cafe menu. Exhibit B: Knightrail's post, already quoted by Ryan, which says that conventional cafe cars will be equipped AND manned. Can someone please explain to me where the idea that the cafe car is getting changed or eliminated came from?


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> Can someone please explain to me where the idea that the cafe car is getting changed or eliminated came from?


Nowhere. That's my point.


----------



## JayPea

keelhauled said:


> Why don't we return to the evidence at hand, which can be found in the FIRST and SECOND pages of this topic. Exhibit A: Amtrak's press release, which says repeatedly that it refers to sleeping car passengers and the diner. No reference, either explicit or implied, is made to coach passengers or the existing cafe menu. Exhibit B: Knightrail's post, already quoted by Ryan, which says that conventional cafe cars will be equipped AND manned. Can someone please explain to me where the idea that the cafe car is getting changed or eliminated came from?


I think it comes from the "slippery slope" theory. When some change happens that we find distasteful, we expect more bad things to happen, even more distasteful than the original changes, even though there is not one shred of evidence to back those suspicions up. I personally like to stick with what I know to be true than engage in wild hyperbole about what might happen, but that's just me I guess.


----------



## Ryan

You and me both.

That's what makes us both official Amtrak Apologists, or Corporate Shills, or something.


----------



## keelhauled

I wish I was a shill. It'd be nice to have the flow of money go from Amtrak to me for once.


----------



## Lonestar648

I thought the only F&B change June 1st is changing all meals to a cold fresh pre-prepared meal, elimination of all Dining Car staff except the LSA who will be in the Sleeper Lounge, formerly the Dining Car. True, there are two different type of Dining Cars involved, but there was no mentioned change to the Cafe segment.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> I thought the only F&B change June 1st is changing all meals to a cold fresh pre-prepared meal, elimination of all Dining Car staff except the LSA who will be in the Sleeper Lounge, formerly the Dining Car. True, there are two different type of Dining Cars involved, but there was no mentioned change to the Cafe segment.


The only likely change for cafe service stemming directly from “Fresh Choices” is the possible operation of the snack bar out of the SSL on the CL, rather than the CCC. Other than that, there doesn’t seem to be much indication whatsoever that anything will on that front.


----------



## neroden

So, this is another example of Amtrak not actually understanding the economics of their own business.

To anyone who's dug through the numbers, it is indisputable that the LSL performs better financially by any measure (ridership, revenue, marginal profit, whatever you like) than any Empire Service train.

This should ring a bell in the mind of a thoughtful railroad executive, but apparently it hasn't. The LSL gets attacked with hostile schedule changes, service quality cuts, and gets the dregs of the equipment, in what seems like an attempt to discourage service. Politicians have had to intervene to get Amtrak to make *profitable* moves like restoring the through Boston cars The only improvement I can remember in years is the business class section. The Performance Improvement Plan is ignored completely despite giving some very sound advice (including "restore the earlier departure from Chicago", and "the LSL has the most coach passengers buying food in the dining car; upgrade the cafe car offerings").

I could run Amtrak better than Mr. Anderson simply because I'm capable of reading reports published in the past, and apparently he isn't.

Amtrak isn't being run like a business right now. I know that phrase is popular, but a real business pays attention to revenue generation, not just to cost-cutting.


----------



## Lonestar648

In business, if you can improve your efficiency, productivity, your customer satisfaction is rising which should equate to additional revenue which should result in additional profit, reducing the loss amount or creating a profit.


----------



## niemi24s

Kindly allow this additional tiny bit of personal opinion:



cpotisch said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone please explain to me where the idea that the cafe car is getting changed or eliminated came from?
> 
> 
> 
> Nowhere. That's my point.
Click to expand...

It came from nowhere because of a lack of good reading comprehension. By either failing to grasp the full meaning of what was written or, conversely, by reading too much into what was written. All the café car stuff began about 30 posts and 24 hours ago when I simply asked if passengers would have access to warm options for breakfast and dinner on the CL after 1 June 2018 at the SSL snack bar from the Amtrak National Café Menu.

I asked this simply because I didn't know. Also asked out of idle curiosity as so many seemed to be getting their panties all in a wad over the elimination of the included hot meals for sleeper pax.

Sorry for asking.


----------



## Lonestar648

Since there is no labor savings in removing the hot meals from the Cafe, like there is in the Dining Car, I see no reason to eliminate anything in the Cafe. Now changes, hopefully the quality of selections is improved in the Cafe.


----------



## cpotisch

niemi24s said:


> Kindly allow this additional tiny bit of personal opinion:
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone please explain to me where the idea that the cafe car is getting changed or eliminated came from?
> 
> 
> 
> Nowhere. That's my point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It came from nowhere because of a lack of good reading comprehension. By either failing to grasp the full meaning of what was written or, conversely, by reading too much into what was written. All the café car stuff began about 30 posts and 24 hours ago when I simply asked if passengers would have access to warm options for breakfast and dinner on the CL after 1 June 2018 at the SSL snack bar from the Amtrak National Café Menu.
> I asked this simply because I didn't know. Also asked out of idle curiosity as so many seemed to be getting their panties all in a wad over the elimination of the included hot meals for sleeper pax.
> 
> Sorry for asking.
Click to expand...

I have no objection to you asking that question your post was not what I was referring to. I was just saying that the speculation in some of the other posts had no real basis in reality.


----------



## zepherdude

This was copied from Amtrak Media Center

https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/

Amtrak Media RelationsAmtrak Contact

202 906.3860
[email protected]

_Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers __to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer_

WASHINGTON – Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited_ trains starting June 1.

Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes – or eaten in a private café or lounge car – and entrees such as:


Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.
These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination, eliminating on-board preparation. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.

Nothing about coach service

Personally I think this is an enhancement. It got so terrible with everyone bashing Amtrak over bad meals, bad service and even stealing, so here we are again, bashing a new concept before anyone knows about it and I have no intention of signing the foolish petition. Too many people want to go back to how it used to be. Well, its not going to happen. Those days and RRs have gone broke. China is in the hands of collectors. This train got the disappearing railroad blues


----------



## Chey

June 1st is less than a month away. Let's see what happens.


----------



## me_little_me

Turkey Club Wrap beats a steak dinner every time! Much better choices! As to breakfast, I never did like fresh cooked eggs.


----------



## keelhauled

Chey said:


> June 1st is less than a month away. Let's see what happens.


Why would we do that when we can OVERREACT and leap WILDLY to conclusions? It's the railfan way!


----------



## Chey

keelhauled said:


> Why would we do that when we can OVERREACT and leap WILDLY to conclusions? It's the railfan way!


Yeah, my bad


----------



## crescent-zephyr

"China is in the hands of collectors"

As recent as 5 years ago we had China (technically ceramic plates and coffee mugs) and glassware on the empire builder, coast starlight, and Capitol. also... Isn't there still Branded China on the Acela?

Im not against trying something new... The CCC cars lasted a month or 2 but the current downgrade on the City has lasted over a year now so who's to say what will happen.

If we keep the LD trains in tact but lose full service dining, that's a fair trade. After all, some marketing genius will get paid big bucks for the brilliant idea of bringing back "legacy dining cars" in a few years. The carousel will continue to spin.


----------



## zepherdude

me_little_me said:


> Turkey Club Wrap beats a steak dinner every time! Much better choices! As to breakfast, I never did like fresh cooked eggs.


I agree, but I will admit to missing pancakes on the train. But, it is such a small issue. I do not really care if I buy a sleeper. It is so much money. Like 300 bucks a night. I can really dress up and live high on the hog for 300 bucks.


----------



## Lonestar648

I will miss the meal time opportunity to meet new people from all over the US and the world, some traveling in the sleeper others in coach. I will miss a hot breakfast, hot coffee, and the sun rising which you can view much better in the the Dining Car instead of your room.

I must remind myself that the only constant in life we can truly depend upon is CHANGE.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well... The only thing you are actually missing is the hot breakfast. All the other things you listed are still available in some form.


----------



## StanJazz

My uncle was a chef on the Santa Fe Super Chief and later he was a dining car steward on Amtrak. He had some old china that I did not know where it came from. After I went to the railroad museum in Sacramento I knew it was Santa Fe china. But not the china from The Super Chief. When the house was being sold I asked for some of it and I received some plates. Not any full servings. Here are 2 of my plates and the Amtrak on 1 side and Santa Fe on the other display in Sacramento. It is the china on the far side of the display. I wish I has a full set. So I guess I am a collector of old railroad china.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Lovely--thanks for sharing this, StanJazz. I saw that display in the rail museum in Sacramento, too, and it was one of my favorite things in the museum.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Being one of the lucky ones that got to ride the Classic Trains back in the day,including the Super Chief, when every line had their own distinctive China pattern, I too enjoy seeing these in Rail Museums and in people's collections..

And I'm reminded every time I eat in an Amtrak Diner, just how far we've regressed with today's disposable trash!


----------



## tommylicious

Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?


----------



## Palmetto

Amtrak's not the only one downgrading. United Airlines announced they're downgrading food in front of the curtain. I saw some photos of breakfast and lunch, and it was downright awful.


----------



## greatcats

I am in Economy Plus on United at this moment from Paris to Newark. I will say lunch today, a Thai curry dish, was better than dinner going east, which was an Indian style chicken. ( I thought the flight attendant called it Idiot Chicken, which she thought was funny ). That meal was pretty mediocre. The ice cream today was good, too. Not sure what the fare is in front of the blue curtain. Hated Paris Airport.


----------



## railiner

StanJazz said:


> My uncle was a chef on the Santa Fe Super Chief and later he was a dining car steward on Amtrak. He had some old china that I did not know where it came from. After I went to the railroad museum in Sacramento I knew it was Santa Fe china. But not the china from The Super Chief. When the house was being sold I asked for some of it and I received some plates. Not any full servings. Here are 2 of my plates and the Amtrak on 1 side and Santa Fe on the other display in Sacramento. It is the china on the far side of the display. I wish I has a full set. So I guess I am a collector of old railroad china.


Thanks for posting!

According to my copy of Richard Luckin's "Dining On Rails", RK Publishing, 1983, the Santa Fe pattern on that china was called "California Poppy", first produced in 1910.

The earlier Amtrak china to the left was called "National", and the latter on the right was called "Superliner"....

The other photo of only Santa Fe china is called "Mimbreno", designed from native American designs, by famous architect and designer, Elizabeth Coulter, of Harvey House fame...

I have an Amtrak blue "National" type water pitcher in my collection...


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Amtrak's not the only one downgrading. United Airlines announced they're downgrading food in front of the curtain. I saw some photos of breakfast and lunch, and it was downright awful.


Effective when?


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's not the only one downgrading. United Airlines announced they're downgrading food in front of the curtain. I saw some photos of breakfast and lunch, and it was downright awful.
> 
> 
> 
> Effective when?
Click to expand...

I should have been more specific. It's flights under 4 hours, Jis. No need to worry when you're in Polaris on the way to Mumbai!



It has already started apparently. The photos I saw were posted by a person on a EWR-JAX itinerary.


----------



## jis

The last food change on United was last Sept. I am not aware of any more recent change. I just flew on an under four hour flight yesterday in F and there was no difference. Got my usual egg white Panini with fruit bowl and yogurt.

I fly in F on United at least once every month. That is why I was curious. My flights are usually between two and for hours on main line. I have no idea what if anything is served in F on United Express.

Oddly enough the Refreshments to real food breakpoint is 2:19-2:20. I.e you get real food on a flight scheduled for more than 2 hours and 19 mins!


----------



## coolcreek

jis said:


> The last food change on United was last Sept. I am not aware of any more recent change. I just flew on an under four hour flight yesterday in F and there was no difference. Got my usual egg white Panini with fruit bowl and yogurt.
> 
> I fly in F on United at least once every month. That is why I was curious. My flights are usually between two and for hours on main line. I have no idea what if anything is served in F on United Express.
> 
> Oddly enough the Refreshments to real food breakpoint is 2:19-2:20. I.e you get real food on a flight scheduled for more than 2 hours and 19 mins!


Not the derail the thread, but in reply to JLS above...this post from a points blogger explains the new cuts. BTW, I'm a UA MillionMiler and recently flew AA for the first time in years. I was stunned by the choice of pre-order meal options in F. A FA friend suggested trying the AVML (asian vegetarian) - ended up with a somewhat spicy chickpea curry, served with rice, salad, vegetables, dessert. The FA that said it was the best smelling meal he'd ever cooked up front - tasted good enough that I ordered it again on the trip home.

On topic: I've written everyone I can think of to complain about the impending Amtrak meal cuts - House, Senate, Amtrak...


----------



## jis

Hey UA is not the best we know that [emoji57] It is just that I have not noticed any change as recently as yesterday on the flights I take in F. Does not mean that that the entire world elsewhere has not changed completely. Perhaps I should not have mentioned September and I apologize. That is when I last recall noticing a change. I really don’t spend too much time seriously keeping track of overall food service on United or on Amtrak for that matter. Occasionally I ask the crew about some oddity if it catches my fancy. That is how I learned about the 2:20 oddity. I just occasionally share info on what I happened to be served. [emoji851]


----------



## seat38a

jis said:


> Hey UA is not the best we know that [emoji57] It is just that I have not noticed any change as recently as yesterday on the flights I take in F. Does not mean that that the entire world elsewhere has not changed completely. Perhaps I should not have mentioned September and I apologize. That is when I last recall noticing a change. I really don’t spend too much time seriously keeping track of overall food service on United or on Amtrak for that matter. Occasionally I ask the crew about some oddity if it catches my fancy. That is how I learned about the 2:20 oddity. I just occasionally share info on what I happened to be served. [emoji851]


Nothing has really changed. United just changed what was labeled as "snack" to a "meal." Essentially they made the meal description vague to get away with whatever they plop in front of you.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Hey UA is not the best we know that [emoji57] It is just that I have not noticed any change as recently as yesterday on the flights I take in F. Does not mean that that the entire world elsewhere has not changed completely. Perhaps I should not have mentioned September and I apologize. That is when I last recall noticing a change. I really don’t spend too much time seriously keeping track of overall food service on United or on Amtrak for that matter. Occasionally I ask the crew about some oddity if it catches my fancy. That is how I learned about the 2:20 oddity. I just occasionally share info on what I happened to be served. [emoji851]


That arbitrary 2:19 to 2:20 divide in service, has the skeptic side of me wondering if that has any influence on the published flight time, if it is 'close'.....






Probably not...but still, I could see the bean counter's looking to shave some costs that way...


----------



## dlagrua

tommylicious said:


> Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?


No. its a deal breaker for us. Maybe they don't need our business, or maybe other passengers will feel the same way. Time will tell.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

dlagrua said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?
> 
> 
> 
> No. its a deal breaker for us. Maybe they don't need our business, or maybe other passengers will feel the same way. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

Good luck getting between the East Coast and Chicago then. It's not like there are a lot of other options.

Amtrak's counting on you still taking these trains or they wouldn't make this change.


----------



## greatcats

I will be taking the Cardinal and Southwest Chief back to Flagstaff next week. Expect a trip report. I am disgusted as most of us are with this idiot dining car decision. What a waste of New equipment. If I should travel to the east coast again from Arizona, it is questionable if I will use the train from Chicago. Frankly, I like to drive, and have just purchased a Toyota SUV. Time wise, that is not always a practical idea. Greyhound for that long a trip is undesirable, so the most logical idea is to fly. I will say United yesterday from Paris to Newark was satisfactory, but I do not give them five stars.


----------



## jis

I will be taking the Cap in July in connection with the OTOL Rail Fest.


----------



## calwatch

Although the press release clearly states that sleeper car passengers will have their food comped, it seems some in Amtrak didn't get the memo, or this may be telegraphing future changes.

[SIZE=11pt]https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-transportation/2018/05/07/chaos-asian-media-blitz-205562[/SIZE]

*BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE: *While we're talking Amtrak, some readers may remember seeing an announcement a few weeks back about Amtrak's plan to start offering "contemporary and fresh dining options" to sleeping car passengers on lines from Washington to Chicago and Chicago to New York beginning in June. Vegan wraps and Greek yogurt will be among the new offerings. MT reached out to Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari for more details and he explained that hot food will no longer be included in ticket prices for sleeper car customers on those two lines. It will be cold food only, though some hot foods will be available for purchase in the cafe, he said. Cafe options include hamburgers, pizza and hot dogs. "We sell a lot of hot dogs despite any effort to convince people to eat more healthy," Magliari quipped.

*Also happening:* Magliari said that additional service updates will include closing ticket windows at 15 stations. That is being done in response to the rise in customers purchasing tickets online and either printing them or downloading them onto their phones instead of going through station agents, he said. Here is a list of the 15 stations: Texarkana, Ark; Fort Madison, Iowa; Ottumwa, Iowa; Garden City, Kan., Topeka, Kan.: La Junta, Colo.; Marshall, Texas; Meridian, Miss.; Charleston, W. Va; Tuscaloosa, Ala.; Lamy, N.M.; Hammond, La.; Shelby, Mont.; Havre, Mont.; Cincinnati, Ohio.


----------



## cpotisch

I do find it a bit surprising that the Cardinal wasn't the first train to get this. It had far and away the worst meal offerings of the three Chicago-East trains and poor ridership, so I don't feel like it would take much of a hit. Is it just that because it's thrice weekly and already offers crap food, that they wouldn't save much money by switching to "Fresh Choices"? Whatever be the case, I doubt the Card's hot meals are going to last very long, anyway.



jis said:


> I will be taking the Cap in July in connection with the OTOL Rail Fest.


I eagerly await your report.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

How many sleeprs and food service crew does the cardinal currently use?


----------



## Lonestar648

Just the Cafe since there is no Dining Car, so not a candidate since no labor costs can be saved.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

When I last rode the Cardinal they had at least 2 food service in the cafe car and only 1 dleeper. Wasn't sure if that had changed.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

It was last fall when I rode it--two sleepers each way, but just one person doing everything in the café car/dining tables westbound, but several eastbound.

I actually liked the Cardinal food (but this is coming from someone who only knows how to cook in a microwave, so maybe it just felt like home!



)

The Cardinal seems to have a different personality--it's sort of like camping on rails--people wander around and talk with each other, and it's very informal. So if the change is made to just have sandwiches, it might actually work better there--people would tend to congregate anyway and eat together. If they keep the business class, that would provide another area for people to congregate and eat and chat, which was always the charm of the dining cars, in my opinion.


----------



## GBNorman

It appears that there is a new outside contractor with the Austrian Railways (OBB) for their On-Board Food & Beverage:

https://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft/unternehmen/5328357/don-travel-loest-Henry-als-Caterer-in-den-OeBBZuegen-ab?from=suche.intern.portal

(give it a moment or two and it will show an English translation)

I found their previous operator provided "darned good" F&B; plenty of (chilled) Grape Juice of the Gruner Veltliner varietal and they offered a (hot) Veal Medallion that was exceptional. If they treated their employees as slaves, as reported within, it was never evident to me on my OBB journeys over the past four years. As I recall I learned the former caterer prepared meals "off site", refrigerated but not frozen, then "miked" on board. I have no idea what must be condemned, and when, nor have I regarding what kind of "shrinkage" occurs.

So who knows, is the OBB now on the "fresh and contemporary" route or will the previous standards be maintained? Previously, menus were posted at the OBB site; don't seem to be at present:

http://www.oebb.at/en/leistungen-und-services/im-zug/bordrestaurant


----------



## cpotisch

If memory serves the Card is operated by one LSA, and the SCAs are the waiters.


----------



## tommylicious

I rode OBB last year and the service was outstanding, as was the food and beverage. Mind you, OBB trips are generally rather short because Europe has a functional passenger rail system (like the rest of the developed world) unlike the US.



GBNorman said:


> It appears that there is a new outside conttactor with the Austrian Railways (OBB) for their On-Board Food & Beverage:
> 
> https://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft/unternehmen/5328357/don-travel-loest-Henry-als-Caterer-in-den-OeBBZuegen-ab?from=suche.intern.portal
> 
> (give it a moment or two and it will show an English translation)
> 
> I found their previous operator provided "darned good" F&B; plenty of (chilled) Grape Juice of the Gruner Veltliner varietal and they offered a (hot) Veal Medallion that was exceptional. If they treated their employees as slaves, as reported within, it was never evident to me on my OBB journeys over the past four years. As I recall I learned the former caterer prepared meals "off site", refrigerated but not frozen, then "miked" on board. I have no idea what must be condemned, and when, nor have I regarding what kind of "shrinkage" occurs.
> 
> So who knows, is the OBB now on the "fresh and contemporary" route or will the previous standards be maintained? Previously, menus were posted at the OBB site; don't seem to be at present:
> 
> http://www.oebb.at/en/leistungen-und-services/im-zug/bordrestaurant


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> If memory serves the Card is operated by one LSA, and the SCAs are the waiters.


That is my recollection too.

Seems like it is already somewhat like what is being proposed for the LSL and CL, except that those two will have the current Dining Car as the Sleeper lounge, separate from the general Lounge for the train.

There is absolutely nothing in the calwatch post that we did not already know BTW. Except for the occasional good grace of an SCA or SLA, Sleeper passengers get to buy Cafe fare if they so choose even today. AFAIK, that food is not supposed to be part of the Sleeper comp. Only Diner food is. (But hey, I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected as always)


----------



## OBS

cpotisch said:


> If memory serves the Card is operated by one LSA, and the SCAs are the waiters.


Not quite correct. The Amdinette is staffed with an LSA and an SA (Waiter). Any assistance provided by SCA is purely voluntary on their part....


----------



## jis

So I guess the theory is, if you serve hot food you need an SA, but if you serve cold food you don't?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> If memory serves the Card is operated by one LSA, and the SCAs are the waiters.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my recollection too.
> 
> Seems like it is already somewhat like what is being proposed for the LSL and CL, except that those two will have the current Dining Car as the Sleeper lounge, separate from the general Lounge for the train.
Click to expand...

That and that the Card's food is hot.


----------



## Lonestar648

The SCA brings the plastic containers to your room, so the SA isn't needed. LSA handles the cafe. On the CL and LSL with two separate cars, there will need to be two LSA or whatever.


----------



## cpotisch

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Good luck getting between the East Coast and Chicago then. It's not like there are a lot of other options.


We'll either fly or take the Crescent to the Sunset Limited to the Southwest Chief.


----------



## Tarm

tommylicious said:


> Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?


I'll be on the CL June 2nd. That will give them one day to fine tune things.


----------



## Rail Freak

Oh, you're sittin Pertty then (sarcasm intended)!!!


----------



## fixj

Tarm said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be on the CL June 2nd. That will give them one day to fine tune things.
Click to expand...

East bound or West bound? I might be on the East bound.


----------



## CAMISSY55

greatcats said:


> I will be taking the Cardinal and Southwest Chief back to Flagstaff next week. Expect a trip report. I am disgusted as most of us are with this idiot dining car decision. What a waste of New equipment....


Great Cats, if you don't mind me asking, what day/date will you be departing CHI on the SWC? I will be traveling to SoCal on the SWC next week. I have, thus far, not been lucky enough to meet any fellow AU'ers in my travels. The dates of the annual Gatherings haven't yet jived with my schedule


----------



## greatcats

CAMISSY55- I will be on 3 on Friday, May 18, going home to Flagstaff. Would be pleased to meet you.


----------



## CAMISSY55

Oh darn! I'll already have arrived in LAX. Gosh, maybe I'll hit it right sometime. Thanks though for the welcoming response. I just love this forum and the informed, helpful folks who share their knowledge so freely.

I know... I'm off topic!!


----------



## cpotisch

CAMISSY55 said:


> Oh darn! I'll already have arrived in LAX. Gosh, maybe I'll hit it right sometime. Thanks though for the welcoming response. I just love this forum and the informed, helpful folks who share their knowledge so freely.
> 
> I know... I'm off topic!!


Well, the Southwest Chief offers connections to the CL and LSL, so I think you're completely on topic.


----------



## MARC Rider

JoeBas said:


> It's been said before, and I'll say it again. 435+100+1. Those are Amtrak's "Core customers".
> 
> If the Top Right Corner of the map wants to go it alone, fine. But not a dime from the rest of the country!


Yes, and that's why there will always be long distance trains in the mix, even without "fine dining" on board. It would be kind of hard to get the politicians to fund Amtrak if it only has utility for the NEC, Illinois, Michigan, California, Washington and Oregon.


----------



## MARC Rider

greatcats said:


> I am in Economy Plus on United at this moment from Paris to Newark. I will say lunch today, a Thai curry dish, was better than dinner going east, which was an Indian style chicken. ( I thought the flight attendant called it Idiot Chicken, which she thought was funny ). That meal was pretty mediocre. The ice cream today was good, too. Not sure what the fare is in front of the blue curtain. Hated Paris Airport.


I flew E plus from Dulles to Beijing last November. I flew Economy home. I don't think UA Eplus gives you better food, just more legroom. The lunch/dinner out of Dulles (Asian style chicken with rice) was much more tasty than the pork with rice cooked up I n Beijing. The breakfasts (some kind of omelet with sausage of unknown meat source) was similar on both flights. The version cooked up in Beijing was inedible.


----------



## CHvision

With the news involving boxed lunch is like lunch given from a school cafeteria to a field trip


----------



## Lonestar648

I think most are hoping for something at least as good as what is given on the EB out of Portland.


----------



## Skyline

CHvision said:


> With the news involving boxed lunch is like lunch given from a school cafeteria to a field trip


In the first few years of Amtrak, kitchens were bad ordered so much that pax were served more than their annual quota of Col. Sanders, hard boiled eggs, and mass produced sandwiches supplied by restaurants along the route that were ordered as needed. I bet Amtrak had a full time staff just to coordinate such things.

Still happens, but not with that frequency.


----------



## tommylicious

Pictures and report please Tarm thanks! Sure to be a rager!



Tarm said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's gonna be the first victim of this sad change? Anyone planning on riding either LSL or CL after the switch?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be on the CL June 2nd. That will give them one day to fine tune things.
Click to expand...


----------



## JRR

Talked to the LSA at lunch today. Clearly the diner employees are seriously worried about losing their jobs.

I questioned her about the number of non sleeper passengers who eat in the diner. The LSA said that there are very few and said that she works the coaches at every meal encouraging the passengers to eat in the diner but with little results. She expressed the opinion that most coach passengers find the prices too high.

We were the last passengers to eat at lunch and she said that the total of coach passengers for breakfast and lunch today was 3.

It seems to me that profitability for food & beverage where almost all the revenue comes from sleeper passengers is an accounting issue. You can allocate the portion of the sleeper passenger revenue to cover the costs of the food service.

Below is our lunch - burger for me and mussels (with added wine) for my wife.

Very good on both counts.


----------



## seat38a

JRR said:


> Talked to the LSA at lunch today. Clearly the diner employees are seriously worried about losing their jobs.
> 
> I questioned her about the number of non sleeper passengers who eat in the diner. The LSA said that there are very few and said that she works the coaches at every meal encouraging the passengers to eat in the diner but with little results. She expressed the opinion that most coach passengers find the prices too high.
> 
> We were the last passengers to eat at lunch and she said that the total of coach passengers for breakfast and lunch today was 3.
> 
> It seems to me that profitability for food & beverage where almost all the revenue comes from sleeper passengers is an accounting issue. You can allocate the portion of the sleeper passenger revenue to cover the costs of the food service.
> 
> Below is our lunch - burger for me and mussels (with added wine) for my wife.
> 
> Very good on both counts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_5602.jpg


Thanks for the report JRR.

Well lets see how long it takes for someone to say throwing more money at it is a solution to get more coach passengers to eat in the dining car.


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> Below is our lunch - burger for me and mussels (with added wine) for my wife.
> 
> Very good on both counts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_5602.jpg


Stop! You're making me jealous!

Seriously, I'm glad that the remaining full service meals are still decent. But give Anderson some time and he'll "fix" that, too.


----------



## neroden

JRR said:


> Talked to the LSA at lunch today. Clearly the diner employees are seriously worried about losing their jobs.
> 
> I questioned her about the number of non sleeper passengers who eat in the diner. The LSA said that there are very few and said that she works the coaches at every meal encouraging the passengers to eat in the diner but with little results. She expressed the opinion that most coach passengers find the prices too high.


It was reported in the past -- in the Performance Improvement Plans -- that nearly 40% of dining car passengers on the Lake Shore Limited were, in fact, from coach.

The other trains had much lower coach usage of the dining cars.

Don't ask me why LSL coach passengers are happier to pay dining car prices -- maybe because many are from NYC or Chicago, which are very expensive cities to dine in. What matters is that *this is the train which really needs to have a dining car*, financially speaking.

And because he doesn't understand the business at all, *this* is the train where Anderson has deleted dining car service. It's grotesque and inexcusable. Anderson is flat-out incompetent, period, end of story.


----------



## Lonestar648

Yep, he only cares about the bottom line. He could care less about the passengers. Just like taking inches odd seat pitch on Delta so they could charge a big fee to give it back. The airline industry makes multi-billions on bag fees, up charges on Premium coach seats, and change fees. Between TSA and the airlines, the flying passengers have been beat up. Now Anderson wants to do the same with Amtrak, cut everything and everyone possible leaving a trail of former passengers and employees in the dust.


----------



## neroden

(quoting Amtrak)



rrdude said:


> This change will contribute to improved financial performance and more contemporary service delivery on these overnight routes between the East Coast and Chicago at an estimated annual savings of $3.4M across both routes, some of which will be reinvested in the product.


Anderson is a brain-damaged idiot. The financial performance will go down the tubes. They're doing this to save $3.4 million per year? They'll lose more than that in revenue. First they lose all the coach revenue in the dining car, of course. Then they lose coach tickets from the people who were eating in the dining car; hard to estimate that. A typical sleeper ticket on the LSL can run $540. If Amtrak loses four sleeper passengers per train over this -- which they likely will -- I would guess the entire "cost savings" gets wiped out.


----------



## neroden

bretton88 said:


> That 3 million in reduced costs is not insignificant when you're under a federal mandate to reduce F&B costs.


It is when you are reducing revenues faster than costs.
That's the underlying problem here. I'm not against a different method of providing food service -- arguably the traditional diner was excessively labor-intensive -- but this is just crap. I mean, they can't even get boiled eggs for breakfast? How much does that cost?


----------



## neroden

TiBike said:


> If the new meals are anything like the pictures from Portland, Oregon early in this thread, sign me up. Those look like reasonably healthy meals, and you won't have to sit with a bunch of strangers to get one.


The problem is: they aren't. Particularly the breakfasts, which contain *literally nothing I can eat*. At all.

I actually like the Portland boxed meals, the LSL Boston section boxed meals, the boxed meals available in the cafes on Empire Service, the cafe selection on the Downeaster... I could go on and on. But the proposed breakfast list on the LSL/CL is flatly unacceptable; it's worse than I get at cheap motels.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Is the savings for both routes combined, or each route? I can’t understand by how the release is worded.


----------



## neroden

Lonestar648 said:


> Yep, he only cares about the bottom line. He could care less about the passengers.


No, my point is that he DOESN'T care about the bottom line. His actions will HURT the bottom line. They're flat out stupid. They will reduce revenues faster than they reduce costs.


----------



## neroden

chrsjrcj said:


> Is the savings for both routes combined, or each route? I can’t understand by how the release is worded.


Both combined. Cut total costs by $3.4 million. I'm pretty darn sure they'll cut revenues by more than that over LSL & CL together.

Hell, if they could cut costs by $6.8 million ($3.4 million each) I might even agree it was worth it, but no, this is a piddly savings which will only act to destroy revenue.


----------



## JRR

"Both combined. Cut total costs by $3.4 million. I'm pretty darn sure they'll cut revenues by more than that over LSL & CL together.

Hell, if they could cut costs by $6.8 million ($3.4 million each) I might even agree it was worth it, but no, this is a piddly savings which will only act to destroy revenue.

"
That's the issue. You can cut the costs to $0, and lose more revenue than the amount of costs that you were incurring.

Are you then better off? Obviously not. There is a complexity here that I cannot find my way through.

As I have said previously, without a full audit and examination of the costs and revenue being included in the F&B, one cannot be able to fully analyze the issue and even then, the question as to how the overall "bottom line" is being affected by the F&B service would still be a matter of debate and probably not readily discernible with any certainty.


----------



## PRR 60

Isn't the proposed breakfast pretty much the same as the Auto Train breakfast that has been served to all passengers - sleeper and coach - for years?


----------



## Steve4031

PRR 60 said:


> Isn't the proposed breakfast pretty much the same as the Auto Train breakfast that has been served to all passengers - sleeper and coach - for years?


Iirc the auto train at least included cereal. The set up on lsl and cl does not include cereal according to information provided.


----------



## tricia

Steve4031 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the proposed breakfast pretty much the same as the Auto Train breakfast that has been served to all passengers - sleeper and coach - for years?
> 
> 
> 
> Iirc the auto train at least included cereal. The set up on lsl and cl does not include cereal according to information provided.
Click to expand...

A significant difference is that the Auto Train's scheduled arrival at its end point is around 9AM. The Capitol Ltd arrives in DC around 1PM--if it's on time.


----------



## OBS

tricia said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the proposed breakfast pretty much the same as the Auto Train breakfast that has been served to all passengers - sleeper and coach - for years?
> 
> 
> 
> Iirc the auto train at least included cereal. The set up on lsl and cl does not include cereal according to information provided.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A significant difference is that the Auto Train's scheduled arrival at its end point is around 9AM. The Capitol Ltd arrives in DC around 1PM--if it's on time.
Click to expand...

And often arrives even before 9AM, FWIW.....


----------



## Lonestar648

A piece or two of bread with coffee isn't much of a breakfast on the CL when your next meal isn't until mid afternoon.


----------



## Ryan

You know that lunch isn’t going to be served?


----------



## Lonestar648

I know no lunch on CL, so if you eat at 7 AM it will be 2PM if lucky before you grab lunch in WAS. Coming to CHI, you get in early enough for a normal lunch in the city.


----------



## Ryan

You know that lunch isn’t served now.

Nobody knows (to my knowledge) if lunch is going to be served under the new scheme.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ryan said:


> You know that lunch isnt served now.
> 
> Nobody knows (to my knowledge) if lunch is going to be served under the new scheme.


Well the whole "we need to clean up the kitchen" excuse won't be valid anymore. It seems logical to me to expect a "fresh" lunch on the eastbound capitol.


----------



## lordsigma

Steve4031 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the proposed breakfast pretty much the same as the Auto Train breakfast that has been served to all passengers - sleeper and coach - for years?
> 
> 
> 
> Iirc the auto train at least included cereal. The set up on lsl and cl does not include cereal according to information provided.
Click to expand...

Auto Train indeed does have cereal.


----------



## kdeschner

I agree that the food choices that Amtrak mentioned are crazy for sleeper pax if that is all that is available, but reading the press release, it is said "Entrees such as". does this mean that there are going to be more choices that what is listed? Because that is the implication I am given. I am riding the LSL in later July, so I will be curious to read this forum on June 2nd!


----------



## jis

LSL and CL will have significantly more choices than what the Silver Star has. So while it is a definite downgrade, it really is nowhere near the ultimate termination of the world.


----------



## neroden

It's essentially incompetence, that's what bugs me. If Amtrak made a serious effort to upgrade the available cafe selections -- boiled eggs (available packaged / not fresh in many stores), oatmeal (available on the Downeaster), etc., I'd think they were *trying*. This just reeks of incompetence.


----------



## TiBike

All you know is what's in the press release, and I can tell you as someone who has read (and occasionally written) many like it in the course of a long and varied career, the press release is a competent piece of work. It may not meet rail geek expectations, but one that did (if such an accomplishment is even possible) would not be suitable – competent – for a consumer audience.

My unsolicited advice FWIW: wait and see what they actually roll out, then give them a couple of weeks to iron out the kinks. If, at that point, the sky actually has fallen, resume your rants.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> A typical sleeper ticket on the LSL can run $540. If Amtrak loses four sleeper passengers per train over this -- which they likely will -- I would guess the entire "cost savings" gets wiped out.


While I agree that this is a moronic decision and it's being implemented on the worst train to do so, you are slightly off in your calculations. If you're estimate about an average sleeper price of $540, Amtrak would have to lose at least six sleeper passengers per train, in order to lose money

$540 x 365 days x 3 consists x 4 passengers = loss of $2,365,200. Six passengers would total out at $3,547,800. Any less than that and "Fresh Choices" is profitable.


----------



## niemi24s

FWIW, according to this... https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3447/45.pdf ...the average sleeper fare on the LSL during FY17 was $244 - which I_ think_ is on a per passenger basis.


----------



## neroden

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> A typical sleeper ticket on the LSL can run $540. If Amtrak loses four sleeper passengers per train over this -- which they likely will -- I would guess the entire "cost savings" gets wiped out.
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that this is a moronic decision and it's being implemented on the worst train to do so, you are slightly off in your calculations. If you're estimate about an average sleeper price of $540, Amtrak would have to lose at least six sleeper passengers per train, in order to lose money
> $540 x 365 days x 3 consists x 4 passengers = loss of $2,365,200. Six passengers would total out at $3,547,800. Any less than that and "Fresh Choices" is profitable.
Click to expand...

Ah, I was counting 2 LSL departures per day + 2 CL departures per day because those are the trains on which breakfast service is being effectively eliminated.

4 departures per day x 4 passengers per train x 365 x $540 = $3153600. Though I figure they're also losing coach patronage in the dining car which should cost more money, though hard to know how much (especially since they probably also lost a coach patronage with the *previous* round of downgrades).

It would be lovely to have real numbers. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that Mr. Anderson does NOT have real numbers. If he did, he'd be reporting the Congressionally-mandated "avoidable loss" numbers, which he is not reporting, in flagrant violation of the law. I think he doesn't have the numbers at all.

Even in cases where he has the numbers he's lying about them, like his false claim of "$750 million" losses on long-distance trains (the official fully-allocated-costs number is under $500 million, and the avoidable costs number is much lower than that though it's unpublished.)

He's making decisions based on gut instinct without using proper business data. This is almost always wrong, and it killed the Milwaukee Road, among others.


----------



## cpotisch

niemi24s said:


> FWIW, according to this... https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3447/45.pdf ...the average sleeper fare on the LSL during FY17 was $244 - which I_ think_ is on a per passenger basis.


If that's the case, then 13 people (split between the CL and LSL). However, it's not that simple, since reduced ridership on those two trains can also result in reduced ridership on the Western trains.


----------



## Lonestar648

Initially, I would expect the passenger count to be flat until people really hear what has happened, actual experience, before significant passengers find alternant transportation.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> Initially, I would expect the passenger count to be flat until people really hear what has happened, actual experience, before significant passengers find alternant transportation.


Right. The new meal service could (somehow) be much better than expected, and we could see an _increase_ in ridership. That doesn't seem particularly likely, given the options listed, but it's possible. But even it's terrible, remember that back in 2009, when Amtrak first added the Diner-Lite to the LSL, there was so much pushback that they put the diner back pretty promptly.

So if "Fresh Choices" _is _terrible, and customers speak their mind like in 2009, it's possible that the diner returns. This is all hypothetical, but I would say it's within the realm of possibility.


----------



## jis

Then again the Silver Star never got its Diner back yet. . Nor did the Cardinal ever get beyond Diner Lite, and CONO stuck with whatever it is stuck with. So YMMV


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Then again the Silver Star never got its Diner back yet. . Nor did the Cardinal ever get beyond Diner Lite, and CONO stuck with whatever it is stuck with. So YMMV


Again, possible, not likely.


----------



## cpotisch

Idea: Doesn't the FDA say that Amtrak can offer passengers access to a microwave, so long as it's for passengers only (didn't they have that on the Automats)? Because if that's the case, Amtrak could just stick one or two microwaves in the Sleeper Lounge, and allow passengers to heat up their food. This would mean that passengers could still have hot meals, without adding to the LSA's workload.


----------



## Seaboard92

I thought a funny protest would be someone packing a microwave with them for a trip cross country. And just eating a lot of microwaveable food as a protest


----------



## Lonestar648

The Dining Cars might not return, but maybe the "fresh" meal is enhanced without adding F&B crew. After hearing comments, maybe the SLC Lounge is somehow enhanced. I think what ever we see June 1st most likely is not what we will be seeing 60 - 90 days later.


----------



## Manny T

Checking out "small" appliances on Amazon, seems a "small" microwave oven weighs in at c. 23 lbs.

So theoretically next time I travel LSL, couldn't I just strap one to my collapsible wheelie cart, board my roomette with it, plug it in when I want to, and microwave my Lean Cuisine (or other) entrees for dinner?? This doesn't have to be a protest, Seaboard--just a matter of convenience and practicality (if permitted).


----------



## seat38a

If anyone actually takes a microwave oven with them aboard a train and cooks themselves food as a sign of protest, then ya'll really got too much time on your hands or your priorities in life are really out of whack.

And if you really can't live without a hot meal overnight and need to bring a microwave oven with you, then you've obviously INSERT SOMETHING REALLY REALLY
























HERE.

This will be my last post regarding this topic. After 34 pages of posts, its obviously starting to degenerate into something borderline delusional. But do all continue posting because I'm still waiting for the one post where someone is going to threaten to hold their breadth in their roomettes to protest the cold meals.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Initially, I would expect the passenger count to be flat until people really hear what has happened, actual experience, before significant passengers find alternant transportation.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. The new meal service could (somehow) be much better than expected, and we could see an _increase_ in ridership. That doesn't seem particularly likely, given the options listed, but it's possible. But even it's terrible, remember that back in 2009, when Amtrak first added the Diner-Lite to the LSL, there was so much pushback that they put the diner back pretty promptly.
> 
> So if "Fresh Choices" _is _terrible, and customers speak their mind like in 2009, it's possible that the diner returns. This is all hypothetical, but I would say it's within the realm of possibility.
Click to expand...

Oh! No! Not another Diner -> Sleeper Lounge -> Diner remodel!


----------



## railiner

cpotisch said:


> Idea: Doesn't the FDA say that Amtrak can offer passengers access to a microwave, so long as it's for passengers only (didn't they have that on the Automats)? Because if that's the case, Amtrak could just stick one or two microwaves in the Sleeper Lounge, and allow passengers to heat up their food. This would mean that passengers could still have hot meals, without adding to the LSA's workload.


"without adding to the LSA's workload"?

Have you ever seen a "self-service" microwave, such as in school or employee lounges?

Who do you think is going to clean it?


----------



## cpotisch

Seaboard92 said:


> I thought a funny protest would be someone packing a microwave with them for a trip cross country. And just eating a lot of microwaveable food as a protest


I've always wanted to (as a joke) cook mac n' cheese on the train. Like I would get milk and butter from the dining car, and boil the pasta with hot water from the lounge car, etc. It would take forever and drive everyone else insane, but it would be awesome.


----------



## cpotisch

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idea: Doesn't the FDA say that Amtrak can offer passengers access to a microwave, so long as it's for passengers only (didn't they have that on the Automats)? Because if that's the case, Amtrak could just stick one or two microwaves in the Sleeper Lounge, and allow passengers to heat up their food. This would mean that passengers could still have hot meals, without adding to the LSA's workload.
> 
> 
> 
> "without adding to the LSA's workload"?
> 
> Have you ever seen a "self-service" microwave, such as in school or employee lounges?
> 
> Who do you think is going to clean it?
Click to expand...

He/she could clean it at the end of the line. For the duration of the trip, there wouldn't be any added work.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I'm struggling to find the actual menu on the "improved" website. Can someone post the public link? I know it has to be around somewhere.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> I'm struggling to find the actual menu on the "improved" website. Can someone post the public link? I know it has to be around somewhere.


I don't think they've released an actual menu beyond what they already told us the in the original announcement.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Seaboard92 said:


> I thought a funny protest would be someone packing a microwave with them for a trip cross country. And just eating a lot of microwaveable food as a protest


Finally, something I could do that I'm an expert at--microwave cooking!




It would feel just like when I'm home!





By the way, looking at the sample "fresh choices" mentioned, some of them sound an awful lot like the sandwiches (called York Street around here, not sure if they have other names elsewhere) in the train stations, where they stick some turkey and cheese in a roll and charge almost $10.00 for it. So maybe, for the sleeper meals, they will just count up the sleeper passengers and then go raid the stations for the sandwiches they need!


----------



## cpotisch

I'm sort of tempted to get a ticket on the LSL and bring like 10 microwaves in a duffel bag, and charge everyone five bucks a pop to use it. I'd make a fortune!


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm struggling to find the actual menu on the "improved" website. Can someone post the public link? I know it has to be around somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they've released an actual menu beyond what they already told us the in the original announcement.
Click to expand...

Thank you. There is an official menu( which really didnt hold my interest) floating around so I guess it is internal. Keep a sharp watch on the website...I guess.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> I'm sort of tempted to get a ticket on the LSL and bring like 10 microwaves in a duffel bag, and charge everyone five bucks a pop to use it. I'd make a fortune!


Or you could bring a deep fat fryer and have chicken fry off in your room. Its been done and it is apparently quite lucrative.


----------



## Rail Freak

My latest craze is the "Air Fryer"!!! I got rid of my grill & seldom use the oven!!! This might be a solution! Now, let's work on an "Ice Maker" to make our Happy Hours more manageable!!!


----------



## tommylicious

I just told my wife about these changes. Her response: "Just fly then."


----------



## Maverickstation

When discussing Amtrak meal service (or lack there of) we often turn to examples of service run by railroads overseas, or in Canada.

That said right here in the USA we have an example of how dining service can function well, the food is from a local caterer, and some of the

cooking is done on board.

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/onboard-experience/dining

Ken


----------



## niemi24s

Maverickstation said:


> . . . right here in the USA we have an example of how dining service can function well. . .


And methinks it _should_ function well when comparing relative costs with, say, the Empire Builder or Capitol Limited:

• Denali Star, 1 adult, Anchorage to Fairbanks, 11h45m, 355 miles, Gold Star Service. . . . . . . . . . . . $441 or $1.24 per mile or $37.53 per hour

• Empire Builder, 1 adult, Chicago to Seattle, 46h10m, 2205 miles, Roomette (high bucket). . . . . . . .$949 or $0.43 per mile or $20.56 per hour.

" " " " " "  " " " (low bucket) . . . . . . . $443 or $0.20 per mile or $9.60 per hour

• Capitol Limited, 1 adult, Chicago to Washington D.C., 17h25m, 780 miles, Roomette (high bucket) $520 or $0.67 per mile or $29.64 per hour

" '' " " " " " " " (low bucket) $273 or $0.35 per mile or $15.56 per hour

The Denali Star is thus 3X higher on a per mile basis and 2X higher on a per hour basis when compared to the combined averages of those two LD trains in the lower 48. It is, however, impossible to assign a value to scenery.


----------



## railiner

Maverickstation said:


> When discussing Amtrak meal service (or lack there of) we often turn to examples of service run by railroads overseas, or in Canada.
> 
> That said right here in the USA we have an example of how dining service can function well, the food is from a local caterer, and some of the
> 
> cooking is done on board.
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/onboard-experience/dining
> 
> Ken


Having ridden the ARR several times, I can vouch for the excellent food and service in its own dining cars, as well as aboard the Princess and Holland America owned cars on some of its trains...


----------



## railiner

I might add, that thankfully, the ARR, having been sold back in 1985 from the Federal Government to the State of Alaska, does not have to justify its Food and Beverage service to anyone in Washington....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I might add, that thankfully, the ARR, having been sold back in 1985 from the Federal Government to the State of Alaska, does not have to justify its Food and Beverage service to anyone in Washington....


But it does have an issue of steadily losing money overall and requiring backfill of it from Juneau. Fortunately Alaska is flush with oil revenue and the tourism aspect of ARR is important to the state in addition to the transportation service provided to the back country specially between Talkeetna and Hurricane. 
BTW the Denali Star is almost purely a tourist train and fares are set to milk the tourists for all they are worth. The fares on trains that provide actual transportation service to locals is much lower.


----------



## railiner

Thankfully, the Alaska state government seems more enlightened to the value of its railroad passenger service, than the national government does....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Thankfully, the Alaska state government seems more enlightened to the value of its railroad passenger service, than the national government does....


I would not be so sanguine about that.

Alaska barely has any passenger service in the winter. And most of the summer passenger service is funded by tour companies and what not. On the plus side, the passenger business has been growing modestly.

The core problem in Alaska is maintenance and upkeep of the basic railroad. Budgets have been tight and getting tighter every year. At present it is only a matter of time before it reaches a crisis, unless somehow freight revenue picks up and becomes profitable. Due to the summer tourist traffic, passenger revenues are actually doing OK, but do not expect to get any passenger service between Anchorage and Whittier at all during the off season, or beyond weekend Saturday out and Sunday back service between Anchorage and Fairbanks during the off season either.

For the tight financial situation, see for example:

https://www.adn.com/business-economy/2017/02/10/with-revenue-struggling-alaska-railroad-cuts-nearly-50-positions/


----------



## niemi24s

jis said:


> The fares on trains that provide actual transportation service to locals is much lower.


That one train is the Hurricane Turn which goes back & forth between Talkeetna and Hurricane with costs of $0.93 per mile or $21.20 per hour. Cheaper than the other AAR tourist trains but still way more than comparable commuter train costs in the lower 48.


----------



## jis

niemi24s said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fares on trains that provide actual transportation service to locals is much lower.
> 
> 
> 
> That one train is the Hurricane Turn which goes back & forth between Talkeetna and Hurricane with costs of $0.93 per mile or $21.20 per hour. Cheaper than the other AAR tourist trains but still way more than comparable commuter train costs in the lower 48.
Click to expand...

True that.

Considering that to run that train in the winter they essentially have to send out crews in trucks to many point to clear the tracks, I doubt that that train makes any money at all even just above the rails. It is run as a public service with recovery of only some of the cost from tickets. It is not like it runs overflowing full either.

In the winter even the Aurora, the weekly round trip, will stop for anyone that waves it down between Talkeetna and Hurricane. I have been on it and seen it done. That train too runs relatively mildly loaded even with the winter tourist traffic, except on few weekends with associated festivals and stuff.


----------



## iplaybass

Booked on the Capitol Limited on 7/12, back on 7/15. We'll see, but I'm getting Giordano's and Au Bon Pain before I board on the way out, something like Sbarro on the way back.


----------



## Rail Freak

What is Au Bon Pain?


----------



## Ryan

https://www.aubonpain.com


----------



## Rail Freak

OMG!!! Gotta try that!


----------



## Lonestar648

jis said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fares on trains that provide actual transportation service to locals is much lower.
> 
> 
> 
> That one train is the Hurricane Turn which goes back & forth between Talkeetna and Hurricane with costs of $0.93 per mile or $21.20 per hour. Cheaper than the other AAR tourist trains but still way more than comparable commuter train costs in the lower 48.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True that.
> 
> Considering that to run that train in the winter they essentially have to send out crews in trucks to many point to clear the tracks, I doubt that that train makes any money at all even just above the rails. It is run as a public service with recovery of only some of the cost from tickets. It is not like it runs overflowing full either.
> 
> In the winter even the Aurora, the weekly round trip, will stop for anyone that waves it down between Talkeetna and Hurricane. I have been on it and seen it done. That train too runs relatively mildly loaded even with the winter tourist traffic, except on few weekends with associated festivals and stuff.
Click to expand...

Alaska has so many isolated areas that depend on the train or bush pilots, so providing transportation with baggage service is critical. I have seen people unload several large containers at a trail along side the the track. An ATV waiting to help haul everything into the woods. Also, Alaskans do not pay taxes, the state pays the official residents an amount each year.


----------



## cpotisch

Rail Freak said:


> OMG!!! Gotta try that!


It's not anything particularly special (in my experience).


----------



## chrsjrcj

So is anyone planning on making a last run in the diners before June 1? I do have the chance to take the Cap Limited from Chicago in 2 weeks, so went ahead and booked to DC.


----------



## jis

On LSL non- Diner or on the Cap? Why bother? Diners are still around on most other trains.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> On LSL non- Diner or on the Cap? Why bother? Diners are still around on most other trains.


For someone who wants to enjoy hot food on that route...? If they were removing the sleepers on an LD train, would you say "Why Bother? Sleepers are still around on most other trains"? That's obviously an extreme example, but some people just might want to experience a dying a service on a specific route.


----------



## jis

Sure. [emoji57]

Actually I would say that. But each to his or her own.

Never bothered to take one last Sleeper ride on the Montrealer either, or the Pioneer or Desert Wind or ....


----------



## Chey

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> On LSL non- Diner or on the Cap? Why bother? Diners are still around on most other trains.
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who wants to enjoy hot food on that route...? If they were removing the sleepers on an LD train, would you say "Why Bother? Sleepers are still around on most other trains"? That's obviously an extreme example, but some people just might want to experience a dying a service on a specific route.
Click to expand...

Or maybe it's one of the few routes that's going where they want to go. Not everyone enjoys flying.


----------



## cpotisch

Chey said:


> Or maybe it's one of the few routes that's going where they want to go. Not everyone enjoys flying.


Well, in this case we're talking about taking the LSL and CL to enjoy the diner before it goes. So it would be more of an trip for the experience, rather than by necessity.


----------



## Lonestar648

Well you can document the meals, the presentation, the staff, etc.so there is a record of how it used to be just prior to June 1st.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The LSL has a diner lite (aka cafe) with no cooked to order food correct? Seems you've already missed out on that route.


----------



## Maverickstation

jis said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fares on trains that provide actual transportation service to locals is much lower.
> 
> 
> 
> That one train is the Hurricane Turn which goes back & forth between Talkeetna and Hurricane with costs of $0.93 per mile or $21.20 per hour. Cheaper than the other AAR tourist trains but still way more than comparable commuter train costs in the lower 48.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True that.
> Considering that to run that train in the winter they essentially have to send out crews in trucks to many point to clear the tracks, I doubt that that train makes any money at all even just above the rails. It is run as a public service with recovery of only some of the cost from tickets. It is not like it runs overflowing full either.
> 
> In the winter even the Aurora, the weekly round trip, will stop for anyone that waves it down between Talkeetna and Hurricane. I have been on it and seen it done. That train too runs relatively mildly loaded even with the winter tourist traffic, except on few weekends with associated festivals and stuff.
Click to expand...

Worth noting is that even in the dead of Winter, the Aurora Winter Train still offers full diner service.


----------



## benale

The Lake Shore doesn't leave until 9:30 out of Chicago. so dinner isnt really an issue. The Cap Ltd will be the biggest loser. It leaves st 6:40 and a hot sit down dinner is one of the highlights. Of course going Westbound both trains serve dinner. This has to be one of the dumbest,unpopular decisions Antrak ever made.


----------



## chrsjrcj

LSL has dinner westbound.

I dont plan on riding the CL again after June 1, unless the new contemporary menu proves itself (even then, none of their examples appealed to me).


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> The LSL has a diner lite (aka cafe) with no cooked to order food correct? Seems you've already missed out on that route.


At least the meals are hot.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I mean sure if you want to ride the lake shore and dine in a cafe car "one last time" fine. I won't stop you, but I'm not going to join you either. Ha.

I did make a joy-ride on the crescent (Atlanta to birmingham and back the same day) when they brought back cooked to order steaks after the first round of "simplified dining cuts."


----------



## jis

Maverickstation said:


> Worth noting is that even in the dead of Winter, the Aurora Winter Train still offers full diner service.


It should also be noted that it is a relatively modest menu, and it is catered from pre-cooked items loaded at Anchorage or Fairbanks. As far as I could tell there was not much of on board cooking. Mostly warming things up. But the food was very good and I enjoyed the lunch I had both on the way to Fairbanks and back.


----------



## railiner

Here are some links to ARR menu's....

https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/alaska-railroad-menu-gng.pdf

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Dinner.pdf

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Lunch.pdf

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Breakfast.pdf

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/akrr_pdfs/17-ARRC-0115_winter_menu-1B-PDD.pdf

and here is the combined menu for the privately operated "Wilderness Express" cars conveyed on summer time ARR trains

https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/wilderness-express-menus.pdf

here is the lunch menu for the privately operated "McKinley Explorer" operated as a Holland America/Princess chartered train on the ARR

https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/mckinley-explorer-menu-lunch.pdf

and here is their upper deck snack bar menu

https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/mckinley-explorer-menu-dome-treats.pdf

They have a pretty elaborate breakfast and dinner menu, which I can't readily find links to...

I would be very happy if Amtrak offered something similar.....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

How are those menus better than Amtraks standard diner menu? Nothing sounds like it is cooked to order.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> How are those menus better than Amtraks standard diner menu? Nothing sounds like it is cooked to order.


They are not cooked to order. But they are pretty tasty. I don;t think they are all that much better than the standard Amtrak Diner fare. They are most likely somewhat better than the visions that one gets of what is coming in LSL and CL. but it is hard to compare something that one has experienced on the one hand with vaporware so far on the other.

Frankly, unlike many around here, who seem to travel by train for the superb cuisine they hope to experience, I just need reasonable food to fill my basic needs. So I am probably not a very good judge of these things. As long as I get something close to what I eat at home, which is not superior cuisine by any means, I am good to go.


----------



## jebr

jis said:


> Frankly, unlike many around here, who seem to travel by train for the superb cuisine they hope to experience, I just need reasonable food to fill my basic needs. So I am probably not a very good judge of these things. As long as I get something close to what I eat at home, which is not superior cuisine by any means, I am good to go.


I'd generally agree. To add to that, cook-to-order for anything complex will likely yield wildly inconsistent results, considering that there's numerous chefs across Amtrak. Sure, a steak, pancake, or egg can be cooked to order consistently across chefs, but those can also be done by cooks who haven't went through advanced education to make fine dining dishes. (Plus, in order for that advanced education to truly shine, the individual chefs would likely need much greater control over the menu than Amtrak can offer, or should offer.)

It's better for Amtrak to focus on making a baseline level of dining service acceptable-to-decent, to the level of a decent chain restaurant, and leave the truly exceptional dining experiences to land-based restaurants or specialty excursions.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jebr said:


> It's better for Amtrak to focus on making a baseline level of dining service acceptable-to-decent, to the level of a decent chain restaurant, and leave the truly exceptional dining experiences to land-based restaurants or specialty excursions.


I agree. Unfortunately I cannot think of a single decent chain restaurant with which Amtrak could compete favorably. I've heard names like Applebee's and Denny's thrown around but despite their relatively low culinary stature they can both make fresher/fancier/tastier made-to-order meals than Amtrak. You can also modify some ingredients and cooking times rather than just being stuck with the original unchangeable recipe like on Amtrak.


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> How are those menus better than Amtraks standard diner menu? Nothing sounds like it is cooked to order.


I don't know about that...

Did you note this, in the Wilderness Express dinner menu? " DINNER PRIME RIB………… $29 A generous cut of slow-roasted prime rib cooked to order served with garlic mashed potatoes and green beans"

IIRC, it was similar on the McKinley Explorer....


----------



## Skyline

railiner said:


> Here are some links to ARR menu's....
> 
> https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/alaska-railroad-menu-gng.pdf
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Dinner.pdf
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Lunch.pdf
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Breakfast.pdf
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/akrr_pdfs/17-ARRC-0115_winter_menu-1B-PDD.pdf
> 
> and here is the combined menu for the privately operated "Wilderness Express" cars conveyed on summer time ARR trains
> 
> https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/wilderness-express-menus.pdf
> 
> here is the lunch menu for the privately operated "McKinley Explorer" operated as a Holland America/Princess chartered train on the ARR
> 
> https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/mckinley-explorer-menu-lunch.pdf
> 
> and here is their upper deck snack bar menu
> 
> https://www.alaskatrain.com/menus/mckinley-explorer-menu-dome-treats.pdf
> 
> They have a pretty elaborate breakfast and dinner menu, which I can't readily find links to...
> 
> I would be very happy if Amtrak offered something similar.....


I should think that in 2018 most of us would be giddy if Amtrak emulated the Alaskan menus.


----------



## Lonestar648

Though not everything can be prepared on the train, Alaska strives to give their passengers the presentation and taste that it is. The way Amtrak used to run their Dining Cars.


----------



## cpotisch

I honestly think that the food currently served in the Superliner and Viewliner diners is pretty good for what it is. The veggie burger, pancakes, RR french toast, butternut squash risotto, and sweet potato gnocchi are very good - not just by train standards. It's definitely uneven, and what I had in the diner-lite on the LSL back in February was very mediocre. But overall I think it's decent. Not a three star restaurant, but decent.


----------



## Ryan

Menus are posted. About what one expected.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0518.pdf



> Entrée
> 
> Charcuterie Plate
> 
> A combination of prosciutto, soppressata and smoked turkey accompanied by assorted cheeses, marinated vegetables, olives, tangy pickles and crisp Italian bread sticks. Served with a cannellini bean salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Chicken Caesar Salad
> 
> Marinated grilled chicken breast, baby kale, romaine lettuce, grape tomatoes with parmesan cracklings and classic Caesar dressing. Served with orzo pasta salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Chilled Grilled Beef Tenderloin Salad
> 
> Sliced beef tenderloin over Arcadian lettuce mix, julienne carrots, artichoke hearts, grape tomatoes, and mustard dressing. Served with potato salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Vegan Wrap
> 
> Roasted and marinated eggplant, red onion, celery root, zucchini, yellow squash, carrots, red pepper, kale with hummus. Served with fresh fruit and a quinoa edamame salad, kettle chips and vegan dessert bar.
> 
> Children’s Meal
> 
> Turkey and cheese sandwich, mandarin orange segments, Go-Gurt stick, goldfish crackers, string cheese stick, fruit snacks, juice box and coloring book.


Breakfast:



> Vanilla Greek yogurt Parfait, fresh seasonal sliced fruit, banana pecan breakfast bread, blueberry muffin, Kashi bar and Kind bar.


----------



## cpotisch

Children's meal makes me want to puke. Dear god.


----------



## cpotisch

Looking at the page, I'm not sure I like the new menu layout. It's kind of hard to read, and looks odd compared to all the other real menus.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> Children's meal makes me want to puke. Dear god.


Yeah and it's a real shame how they tie you down and force you to eat it.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

cpotisch said:


> Looking at the page, I'm not sure I like the new menu layout. It's kind of hard to read, and looks odd compared to all the other real menus.


Probably part of their self-proclaimed commitment to "making your dining experience with us even better."



cpotisch said:


> Children's meal makes me want to puke. Dear god.


Oh, I don't know--they also say they want us "to experience your journey with no boundaries," and I see a lot of things in the children's menu that they could just pick up and throw across the roomette or down the hallway or at somebody (yogurt stick, juice box, etc.). They should have lots of fun with the kid's meal!






But really, what a lot of PR garbage.


----------



## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the page, I'm not sure I like the new menu layout. It's kind of hard to read, and looks odd compared to all the other real menus.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably part of their self-proclaimed commitment to "making your dining experience with us even better."
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children's meal makes me want to puke. Dear god.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I don't know--they also say they want us "to experience your journey with no boundaries," and I see a lot of things in the children's menu that they could just pick up and throw across the roomette or down the hallway or at somebody (yogurt stick, juice box, etc.). They should have lots of fun with the kid's meal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But really, what a lot of PR garbage.
Click to expand...

Yeah! I'm gonna Go-Gurt Anderson's office! YOLO!


----------



## Ryan

I'm not sure I get the hate on the kids meal. If you were to ask my five year old what she wanted to eat, this is literally exactly what she would ask for (except she only likes cheese sandwiches without meat. I could literally go downstairs and assemble this kids meal from what we have in the kitchen because that's what the girl eats (constantly, if we would let her).


----------



## keelhauled

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure I get the hate on the kids meal. If you were to ask my five year old what she wanted to eat, this is literally exactly what she would ask for (except she only likes cheese sandwiches without meat. I could literally go downstairs and assemble this kids meal from what we have in the kitchen because that's what the girl eats (constantly, if we would let her).


I agree. The whole point of a children's meal is to be mild and inoffensive. Just cause the overlap between forum members and the target market is probably zero doesn't make it a bad choice. 
Actually now that I think about it, I eat an awful lot of sandwiches even as an adult, so I for one will not be throwing any stones here.


----------



## tommylicious

That menu stinks. All the "fresh" branding and green ink are nothing more than a silk hat on a pig. It's such a letdown from cooked food in a dining car experience. I will never again ride the CL or LSL, nor any LD route which purveys this stuff, no matter how they try to spin it. It's a sack lunch. I will fly instead.


----------



## KmH

Gosh. I guess I've missed out most of my life. I've never had a sack lunch as fancy as the entreé offerings in that menu.

A once per trip complimentary choice of a beer, wine or spirit with an entreé on an LD train is a nice touch.

Now they need to update the LSL's Food Facts page.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Vegan dinner, does not look like anything a vegan can eat for breakfast. Fresh Fruit is the only guaranteed item.

A plate, two salads, a wrap.

Good thing I normally board in Utica, so dinner is before train time. Will be interesting the stock levels. If the pre-order feature was available now, that would be helpful.

The lack of a breakfast....


----------



## Steve4031

The breakfast is still the weakest. No choices.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> The breakfast is still the weakest. No choices.


It is a backhanded way of increasing F&B revenues - get the Sleeper passengers to go to the Cafe and get themselves a Jimmy Dean's Sandwich or a Breakfast Wrap





Sigh....


----------



## Steve4031

jis said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The breakfast is still the weakest. No choices.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a backhanded way of increasing F&B revenues - get the Sleeper passengers to go to the Cafe and get themselves a Jimmy Dean's Sandwich or a Breakfast Wrap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh....
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I would do. And st cheese filled pretzel.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The breakfast is still the weakest. No choices.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a backhanded way of increasing F&B revenues - get the Sleeper passengers to go to the Cafe and get themselves a Jimmy Dean's Sandwich or a Breakfast Wrap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's exactly what I would do. And st cheese filled pretzel.
Click to expand...

But of course. Given Amtrak's excellent inventory management, they will run out of them by 6:53am!


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure I get the hate on the kids meal. If you were to ask my five year old what she wanted to eat, this is literally exactly what she would ask for (except she only likes cheese sandwiches without meat. I could literally go downstairs and assemble this kids meal from what we have in the kitchen because that's what the girl eats (constantly, if we would let her).


I get what you're saying, but I just think a cold cheese sandwich, Go-Gurt, and string cheese is a catastrophic step down from what was offered before. For the very young kids (like your five years), this could be a decent option, but for the slightly older kids (like 10 years old), I think the microwaved mac n' cheese or hot dog was much better.


----------



## TiBike

I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal



) over anything on the the current menu.

Same with breakfast. Yogurt and fruit is how I started the day this morning. I realise people love eggs, meat and heavy starch, but the new breakfast is completely adequate. And some of us actually prefer it.

The drinks menu is fine. Looks more like what I'm used to seeing in the Capitol Corridor cafe. It might not be all that different from what the Starlight has now, though. Stone is a decent West Coast IPA; the wines are worth drinking. The cocktails look like they're aimed at a younger audience, which is a smart move.

Huge bonus: I don't have to share a table with some old geezer beyatching about how his steak is cooked.


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal
> 
> 
> 
> ) over anything on the the current menu.


Where does it show dinner?


----------



## TiBike

Two kinds of entree salad, a meat/cheese/veggie plate, a veggie wrap or a turkey sandwich. That's what I eat for dinner 6 or 7 days a week anyway.


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> Two kinds of entree salad, a meat/cheese/veggie plate, a veggie wrap and a turkey sandwich. That's what I eat for dinner 6 or 7 days a week anyway.


Not showing up for me.


----------



## snvboy

I'm willing to give these a try and hold off my judgement until I do (which will be on a Capitol Limited trip in just a few weeks). The quality in the dining car has just been going slowly and steadily downhill, and if these items are what I imagine them to be (similar to the meals out of Portland on the Empire Builder) then I'll be perfectly happy with them on these 1 night trips. Frankly, I think a lot of what the dining car has been sending out in the past 2 years is a small step above hog slop - particularly the breakfast and the sides. I'd rather have a tasty cold meal that a crappy hot one.

And for my wife this is a much more appealing Vegan selection.


----------



## PRR 60

For wine people, the free 1/2 bottle each is a nice perk. A "free" dinner in the conventional dining car for my wife and me sets us back about $40. This will cut at least $32 off that.


----------



## Rheavon

Definitely interested in seeing what these look like now. They sound fancy, but I'm skeptical.


----------



## CAQuail

Based on this menu, which is filled with things I don't like, I will be flying home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's about $1,500 in lost revenue.


----------



## railiner

Not much on that menu to satisfy me. I will continue my current practice of mostly bringing aboard food of my liking, supplemented by some items from the cafe.

While it will certainly diminish the overall pleasure of riding a long distance train, it will not deter me from riding...


----------



## jis

It is only on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited for now. Other than those two and of course, the Star which has no Diner, the other LD trains continue to have their current Diner service at least for the time being.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I dont drink alcohol, so the 1 free drink does nothing for me. I can already get free sodas in the dining car as it is.

Chicken caesar salad is okay for lunch, but breakfast and dinner do nothing for me. At least include some of the nuked meals from the cafe car as an option, if they arent going to reduce prices (like on the Star).


----------



## jis

I am left wondering how much fund is going to be transferred from the operations account to the F&B account for each of these meals served. Or is there going to be a set amount transferred irrespective of whether a meal is actually served.


----------



## jebr

The meals overall look decent, though I'm still wanting a hot option. The ingredients and side options are definitely fancier than I've had in box lunches, even the typical catered lunches from a local deli. If they're being delivered fresh on board and meals are served through arrival (so supper is offered before arrival into NYP, and lunch offered before arrival into WAS) the change seems to be at least even, if not a bit better than the current options. Sure, we're losing Steak Island, but overall I think this is a decent alternative.

I'm not a huge wine drinker (though I may decide to be adventurous and try one) but a gin and tonic sounds quite delightful while going through the countryside upon boarding the first evening. So I'm willing to give it a go and see how well the execution is when I take my trip this fall. I'm definitely not feeling the need to switch to the Cardinal or fly to avoid the food service, though.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) over anything on the the current menu.
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it show dinner?
Click to expand...

The Lake Shore Limited only serve two meals. East: Dinner and Breakfast, West: Breakfast and Lunch.

So the meals are interchangeable between a Lunch or a Dinner.


----------



## jebr

The arrival into NYP (and BOS) is during/after the start of dinner service. I'm wondering if they'll actually stock dinner (which also offers some resiliency during delays to offer a standard meal service) or whether they'll keep the old style where they don't have anything stocked for that meal service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Starbucks cold brew!? For free? What's to complain about!!!!!! and La Croix, and non-boxed Orange juice. Some serious positives about this menu in my book. The set menus are a negative... For example you used to be able to choose which dessert you got... Now you get whatever dessert comes with that meal I guess. And yeah... Breakfast is lacking... But based on the drink choices I think these meals will be pretty good quality wise.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I've seen worse, and the Breakfast is similar to the Continental that I usually eat in a Diner on LD Trains.

It definitely looks better than the offerings on the CONO and the Card!

The jury is out till we actually get to eat off this Menu.


----------



## JRR

I can’t imagine a kid’s meal without Mac n cheese. That’s what my grandkids - 2 to 14, want 90% of the time..

A microwave would handle that.


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal
> 
> 
> 
> ) over anything on the the current menu.
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it show dinner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Lake Shore Limited only serve two meals. East: Dinner and Breakfast, West: Breakfast and Lunch.So the meals are interchangeable between a Lunch or a Dinner.
Click to expand...

When I went on the page, it just showed breakfast. Nothing else.


----------



## Rheavon

JRR said:


> I can’t imagine a kid’s meal without Mac n cheese. That’s what my grandkids - 2 to 14, want 90% of the time..
> 
> A microwave would handle that.


Or even hot water and a Easy Mac bowl.


----------



## cpotisch

Rheavon said:


> Definitely interested in seeing what these look like now. They sound fancy, but I'm skeptical.


They dont sound even remotely fancy to me.


----------



## bms

I understand why people who pay for a sleeping car are disappointed. It especially is a bad deal for those who don't drink and are essentially paying for an alcoholic drink anyway.

However, if they sell these meals to us coach passengers at a reasonable price, it would be an upgrade from the Cafe Car. I'll definitely try those lunches if they do sell them in coach.


----------



## Steve4031

There is an email on the menu. I just sent an email explaining my concerns.


----------



## cpotisch

bms said:


> However, if they sell these meals to us coach passengers at a reasonable price, it would be an upgrade from the Cafe Car. I'll definitely try those lunches if they do sell them in coach.


They already offer that on some western trains (I think they call it "Just for You"). It's a boxed meal that includes a large bottle of water, large chocolate chip cookie, and a hot entree. Coach passengers purchase it through their car attendant who will in turn retrieve it from the dining car and bring it to your seat. From what I've heard they're generally very good, and usually costs about $10 for the whole thing, which in my opinion is a pretty good deal.

Amtrak claims that they will be selling spare "Fresh Choices" meals to coach passengers, but it seems that'll only happen if there are leftovers, so I wouldn't be optimistic they'll be available reliably, or at a decent price.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

keelhauled said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children's meal makes me want to puke. Dear god.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah and it's a real shame how they tie you down and force you to eat it.
Click to expand...

Does someone in your family work for Amtrak? I'm just trying to understand what causes you to lash out with these bizarre retorts. You're reacting like someone just bullied your little brother.


----------



## keelhauled

Devil's Advocate said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah and it's a real shame how they tie you down and force you to eat it.
> 
> 
> 
> Does someone in your family work for Amtrak? I'm just trying to understand what causes you to lash out with these bizarre retorts. You're reacting like someone just bullied your little brother.
Click to expand...

And I am trying to understand why someone would be so quick to condemn a meal for whom they are not the target market and which they will probably never eat, sight and taste unseen. I suppose we shall both live in confusion. 
I'm not on any particular side here, but I am strongly in favor of facts, and I *know* no one here has been served food from this menu in revenue service, so writing it off as a "sack lunch" or that it makes one "want to puke" is in my opinion just absurd.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal
> 
> 
> 
> ) over anything on the the current menu.
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it show dinner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Lake Shore Limited only serve two meals. East: Dinner and Breakfast, West: Breakfast and Lunch.So the meals are interchangeable between a Lunch or a Dinner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I went on the page, it just showed breakfast. Nothing else.
Click to expand...

What does it show under Breakfast? Didn't you see, in big letters, Entree?


----------



## ainamkartma

Ryan said:


> Menus are posted. About what one expected.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0518.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entrée
> 
> Charcuterie Plate
> 
> A combination of prosciutto, soppressata and smoked turkey accompanied by assorted cheeses, marinated vegetables, olives, tangy pickles and crisp Italian bread sticks. Served with a cannellini bean salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Chicken Caesar Salad
> 
> Marinated grilled chicken breast, baby kale, romaine lettuce, grape tomatoes with parmesan cracklings and classic Caesar dressing. Served with orzo pasta salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Chilled Grilled Beef Tenderloin Salad
> 
> Sliced beef tenderloin over Arcadian lettuce mix, julienne carrots, artichoke hearts, grape tomatoes, and mustard dressing. Served with potato salad and salted caramel cheese cake.
> 
> Vegan Wrap
> 
> Roasted and marinated eggplant, red onion, celery root, zucchini, yellow squash, carrots, red pepper, kale with hummus. Served with fresh fruit and a quinoa edamame salad, kettle chips and vegan dessert bar.
> 
> Children’s Meal
> 
> Turkey and cheese sandwich, mandarin orange segments, Go-Gurt stick, goldfish crackers, string cheese stick, fruit snacks, juice box and coloring book.
> 
> 
> 
> Breakfast:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vanilla Greek yogurt Parfait, fresh seasonal sliced fruit, banana pecan breakfast bread, blueberry muffin, Kashi bar and Kind bar.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Well. Based on the descriptions alone, I'll wager these are just standard off the shelf airline domestic first class midday meals. You'll find basically identical descriptions of those on the various airline websites.

And in my experience, that's a very very low standard. Processed meat, pre-sliced and dumped on a mixed salad. Cold. A tub of processed dressing on the side. Plastic side compartments with processed starchy salad and sweet cake in them.

We shall see, I guess. I am even less optimistic now than before the posting of this menu. I used to ride the LSL with some regularity, but this will change the balance of that equation for sure.

Gotta love marketing speak though!

"prepared fresh daily"-----------> Sure, but what day?

"fresh local produce"------------> Local to where? Fresh when?

"no boundaries"------------------> Except a maximum food temperature at time of serving of 55 degrees F...

Ainamkartma


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like what I see. The dinner menu (as described, at least) is 100% better than what's offered in the diners on the Starlight and Zephyr. I'd take any item on there (including the kid's meal
> 
> 
> 
> ) over anything on the the current menu.
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it show dinner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Lake Shore Limited only serve two meals. East: Dinner and Breakfast, West: Breakfast and Lunch.So the meals are interchangeable between a Lunch or a Dinner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I went on the page, it just showed breakfast. Nothing else.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does it show under Breakfast? Didn't you see, in big letters, Entree?
Click to expand...

Oh. Was confused as I thought it meant the entrees available for breakfast. But since those entrees seem much more fitting for lunch or dinner, and I just now noticed the small text listing the one breakfast option, it make much more sense. I guess I'm a bit out of it today.


----------



## cpotisch

Something I love about "contemporary dining", is that apparently there's a grand total of *one* vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian entree. So whether I like it or not, I'll be enjoying 1-2 vegan wraps the next time I take the CL or LSL. Fun.


----------



## Chey

cpotisch said:


> Something I love about "contemporary dining", is that apparently there's a grand total of *one* vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian entree. So whether I like it or not, I'll be enjoying 1-2 vegan wraps the next time I take the CL or LSL. Fun.


Are there more of those types of entrees on the regular menu the other LD trains have? I never paid much attention.


----------



## cpotisch

Chey said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something I love about "contemporary dining", is that apparently there's a grand total of *one* vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian entree. So whether I like it or not, I'll be enjoying 1-2 vegan wraps the next time I take the CL or LSL. Fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there more of those types of entrees on the regular menu the other LD trains have? I never paid much attention.
Click to expand...

Here's the Silver Meteor dining car menuEight out of the 13 entrees on the menu seem to be vegetarian (plus the cod if you're a pescatarian). That's a hell of a lot better than what you now can get on the LSL and CL.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Chey said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something I love about "contemporary dining", is that apparently there's a grand total of *one* vegan/vegetarian/pescatarian entree. So whether I like it or not, I'll be enjoying 1-2 vegan wraps the next time I take the CL or LSL. Fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there more of those types of entrees on the regular menu the other LD trains have? I never paid much attention.
Click to expand...

It varied but in short... Yes. You could order a veggie burger for lunch or dinner. An entree salad for lunch and sometimes dinner as well. There was always one seafood entree, and usually a vegetarian pasta as well. That's 3 or 4 options for a pescitarian. Also... A good crew would serve you a baked potato and salad only for dinner, or other easy variations.


----------



## Chey

crescent-zephyr said:


> It varied but in short... Yes. You could order a veggie burger for lunch or dinner. An entree salad for lunch and sometimes dinner as well. There was always one seafood entree, and usually a vegetarian pasta as well. That's 3 or 4 options for a pescitarian. Also... A good crew would serve you a baked potato and salad only for dinner, or other easy variations.


Lucky you, getting what you asked for! I think *once* I was brought my steak without the baked potato.

It wasn't their fault that I have ZERO self-control and that I always paid for it later. I needed protein and fiber and it really wasn't their fault that they couldn't serve everyone's dietary needs.

I know this new menu isn't going to please a lot of people; it just seems almost custom-made for people like me. Of course, we haven't seen reality yet...


----------



## Thirdrail7

i think that everyone is missing the point. They are cutting the menu...but children are getting a coloring book! Talk about wasting taxpayers dollars. Do you think PhillyAmtrakFan complained for years about subsidizing steaks while Pennsylvania lost the Broadway Limited only to see them traded for a coloring book?

This will not do.

I think the real outrage is the prices for the sleepers didn't drop (as they did on the Star) and the adults can't get a coloring book! Geez! The adults already lost the onboard guides on a lot of routes.

Next they'll take the broken electrical outlets off the train. I'm writing my representative....in crayon...to demand a coloring book for adults!


----------



## PRR 60

I'd personally rather have the half bottle of wine than a coloring book.


----------



## benale

Thirdrail7 said:


> i think that everyone is missing the point. They are cutting the menu...but children are getting a coloring book! Talk about wasting taxpayers dollars. Do you think PhillyAmtrakFan complained for years about subsidizing steaks while Pennsylvania lost the Broadway Limited only to see them traded for a coloring book?
> 
> This will not do.
> 
> I think the real outrage is the prices for the sleepers didn't drop (as they did on the Star) and the adults can't get a coloring book! Geez! The adults already lost the onboard guides on a lot of routes.
> 
> Next they'll take the broken electrical outlets off the train. I'm writing my representative....in crayon...to demand a coloring book for adults!


I would imagine Amtraks justification for not dropping sleeper prices is the fact they are offering unlimited drinks and one alcoholic drink. I wonder why the Silver Star cantt do this. Sure beats having to buy microwaved stuff from the cafe car. Actually it would make sense. The Meteor had a full diner, and this beats the alleged food served on The City of New Orleans by far the worst food served on Amtrak. I was on the CONO last week. Awful.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PRR 60 said:


> I'd personally rather have the half bottle of wine than a coloring book.


I don"t think the food offerings are plentiful enough to absorb the alcohol! A half bottle might do me in!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

That another issue. Size of the meals. How big are the salads, trays, and wrap? Only time will tell.

It already been noted there is a e-mail available for feedback so I am sure that it will be flooded with customer issues. People with empty stomach and time available not the best combination.


----------



## iplaybass

There's better bakeries an Uber away. I have a 6 hour layover, so... Au Bon Pain is just in walking distance.



cpotisch said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> OMG!!! Gotta try that!
> 
> 
> 
> It's not anything particularly special (in my experience).
Click to expand...


----------



## TinCan782

From the back page ...

_"We want to make sure you have a great experience riding Amtrak. If you have ideas on how we can improve our service to you, please share them directly with our Vice President of Customer Experience at [email protected]"_

Give them a piece of your mind!


----------



## Steve4031

FrensicPic said:


> From the back page ...
> 
> _"We want to make sure you have a great experience riding Amtrak. If you have ideas on how we can improve our service to you, please share them directly with our Vice President of Customer Experience at [email protected]"_
> 
> Give them a piece of your mind!


I sent my concerns and suggestions. The big one was allowing sleeping car passengers the alternative of one sandwich and snack item from the lounge car in lieu of the complimentary item provided for sleeping car passengers. IMHO any unconsumed meals could be sold to coach passengers as planned or suggested in previous posts.

This would not address all concerns but I would enjoy sitting in the viewliner diner noshing on a breakfast sandwich while looking out the window. Lol. At dinner and lunch it would be a sandwich or pizza.


----------



## bratkinson

After finally getting a look at the new menu a few minutes ago, I just cancelled my July 448/449 trip to Chicago in a roomette. I booked it using AGR points and have no remorse about the 10% hit for cancellation.

I'll have to rethink a number of planned trips to/through the Windy City using the Cardinal and its 3/week schedule. It'll cost a big chunk of $ more than the Lakeshore or Capitol Limited from Massachusetts, but I'm willing to pay it for hot meals. Maybe if they offered free meals in the lounge car in lieu of their cold meals in your room I'd be a taker.

Perhaps they should simply convert to the Silver Star model and sell off all the new diners!

edit: I just sent the VP customer experience staff a brief note of my cancelling my trip and why. I closed with my name and AGR number, Select Plus status.


----------



## CHvision

I don't mean to go off-topic with this but hearing that chefs won't be onboard the Lake Shore and Capitol Limiteds, I know the New Orleans has no chef on-board makes me wonder, does the Texas Eagle have a chef on-board the train?


----------



## tommylicious

Well done! Hear Hear! Cheers bratkinson! We were going to do a family trip on Amtrak this fall CL, LSL and flying instead after this news. Just not worth it by any reasonable stretch anymore.



bratkinson said:


> After finally getting a look at the new menu a few minutes ago, I just cancelled my July 448/449 trip to Chicago in a roomette. I booked it using AGR points and have no remorse about the 10% hit for cancellation.
> 
> I'll have to rethink a number of planned trips to/through the Windy City using the Cardinal and its 3/week schedule. It'll cost a big chunk of $ more than the Lakeshore or Capitol Limited from Massachusetts, but I'm willing to pay it for hot meals. Maybe if they offered free meals in the lounge car in lieu of their cold meals in your room I'd be a taker.
> 
> Perhaps they should simply convert to the Silver Star model and sell off all the new diners!
> 
> edit: I just sent the VP customer experience staff a brief note of my cancelling my trip and why. I closed with my name and AGR number, Select Plus status.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

bratkinson said:


> After finally getting a look at the new menu a few minutes ago, I just cancelled my July 448/449 trip to Chicago in a roomette. I booked it using AGR points and have no remorse about the 10% hit for cancellation.
> 
> I'll have to rethink a number of planned trips to/through the Windy City using the Cardinal and its 3/week schedule. It'll cost a big chunk of $ more than the Lakeshore or Capitol Limited from Massachusetts, but I'm willing to pay it for hot meals. Maybe if they offered free meals in the lounge car in lieu of their cold meals in your room I'd be a taker.


If it costs you a big chunk more $, why not just buy the hot meals in the lounge car and save money and time (and if you're from Massachusetts the transfer)? I'm sure it will be cheaper.

Hopefully there won't be too many people who boycott the LSL/CL because of this and Amtrak doesn't cancel both trains. I'd hate to see an Amtrak where the only way to get from the East Coast to Chicago is Byrd Crap.


----------



## Palmetto

United Airlines had to re-instate tomato juice onboard. Why? Too many customer complaints about its removal. Question is: will Amtrak re-instate anything due to too many customer complaints?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Palmetto said:


> United Airlines had to re-instate tomato juice onboard. Why? Too many customer complaints about its removal. Question is: will Amtrak re-instate anything due to too many customer complaints?


I still hear complaints to this day about the lack of a dining car on the Silver Star. Yet here we are.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I suppose customer complaints matter on the NEC, not much elsewhere.


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> I don't mean to go off-topic with this but hearing that chefs won't be onboard the Lake Shore and Capitol Limiteds, I know the New Orleans has no chef on-board makes me wonder, does the Texas Eagle have a chef on-board the train?


The Texas Eagle prepares meals the exact same way as any other Superliner train with full service dining. There is a chef, LSA, waiters, etc. Food quality is identical to any of the "flagship" western routes.


----------



## cpotisch

PRR 60 said:


> I'd personally rather have the half bottle of wine than a coloring book.


Just draw yourself a half bottle of wine!


----------



## Lonestar648

Customer comments by letter, email, or phone seem only to get the cursory "Thank You" for your comments. Maybe there are so many they don't know how to handle them. I used to get a letter/email back with a couple lines of detail so you know that someone had taken the time to read what you sent. Now you get a Thank You and all comments are forwarded, a standard computer response.


----------



## jis

So what is the new tipping protocol going to be for meal service on these trains. Afterall, that is always one of the hot subject on AU.


----------



## tricia

jis said:


> So what is the new tipping protocol going to be for meal service on these trains. Afterall, that is always one of the hot subject on AU.


Time to make a batch of popcorn.....


----------



## Steve4031

Add butter and salt.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> So what is the new tipping protocol going to be for meal service on these trains. Afterall, that is always one of the hot subject on AU.


As I understand it with "contemporary dining" passengers either have their meals delivered to their rooms by the SCA, or pick it up personally from the Sleeper Lounge. If that's correct, then I would use (my) standard tipping procedure for the former, which is to tip the SCA as I would in the dining car or a restaurant, 15-20% or the listed prices. But since the new menu doesn't list the prices, I'm not sure how someone would even figure that out...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the new tipping protocol going to be for meal service on these trains. Afterall, that is always one of the hot subject on AU.
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it with "contemporary dining" passengers either have their meals delivered to their rooms by the SCA, or pick it up personally from the Sleeper Lounge. If that's correct, then I would use (my) standard tipping procedure for the former, which is to tip the SCA as I would in the dining car or a restaurant, 15-20% or the listed prices. But since the new menu doesn't list the prices, I'm not sure how someone would even figure that out...
Click to expand...

This new contemporary boxed meal dining option sounds more like being served on an airline than in a restaurant. If airline staff aren't tipped for delivering a meal is there a reason why train staff should be?


----------



## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the new tipping protocol going to be for meal service on these trains. Afterall, that is always one of the hot subject on AU.
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it with "contemporary dining" passengers either have their meals delivered to their rooms by the SCA, or pick it up personally from the Sleeper Lounge. If that's correct, then I would use (my) standard tipping procedure for the former, which is to tip the SCA as I would in the dining car or a restaurant, 15-20% or the listed prices. But since the new menu doesn't list the prices, I'm not sure how someone would even figure that out...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This new contemporary boxed meal dining option sounds more like being served on an airline than in a restaurant. If airline staff aren't tipped for delivering a meal is there a reason why train staff should be?
Click to expand...

More precedent than anything else. But bear in mind that the SCA would be bringing individual meals to passengers from another car. Which is a bit more time consuming than just having a cart on a plane.


----------



## jis

DA perish the thought of trying to argue against tipping on Amtrak at AU. You will get drawn and quartered before you know it.


----------



## cpotisch

I feel like until we actually see "contemporary dining" in action, it will be hard to get a sense of what kind of service we actually see in practice. If it really seems like customers are doing the vast majority of the work themselves, and the layout just doesn't work, then I probably won't tip. If it seems like the crew is working hard and providing good service, I will tip. It's up to the individual and the service/system actually offered.


----------



## pennyk

Devil's Advocate said:


> This new contemporary boxed meal dining option sounds more like being served on an airline than in a restaurant. If airline staff aren't tipped for delivering a meal is there a reason why train staff should be?


Do passengers generally tip the attendant when getting their boxed meals on the Portland section of the Empire Builder? I have traveled both ways only once and I do not remember. This meal service may be similar if the passenger chooses to eat in the sleeper lounge as opposed to having the meal brought to her or his room.


----------



## chrsjrcj

If I decided to have my meal in my room, I’d probably tip my SCA more than I would on a typical trip.

If I had my meals in the lounge (more likely), I may tip a ~$j1 if the attendant is friendly and attentive. Comparable to what I might tip the attendant in the cafe car.


----------



## TinCan782

pennyk said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> This new contemporary boxed meal dining option sounds more like being served on an airline than in a restaurant. If airline staff aren't tipped for delivering a meal is there a reason why train staff should be?
> 
> 
> 
> Do passengers generally tip the attendant when getting their boxed meals on the Portland section of the Empire Builder? I have traveled both ways only once and I do not remember. This meal service may be similar if the passenger chooses to eat in the sleeper lounge as opposed to having the meal brought to her or his room.
Click to expand...

My last trip on #28, our meals (quite good BTW) were delivered to our roomette. As we only traveled to Spokane from Portland, we probably only tipped about "normal" for a less than one night trip. I don't recall adding extra to what I tipped because of the meal delivery.


----------



## Lonestar648

These are prepared boxes, all the SCA has to do is load several of these up and carry them to the Sleeper, hand them out. Not sure what to do here. There is no boxing up, making sure the order is correct, etc. If Amtrak expects the meals to be delivered, unless you say you will eat in the lounge, then is the SCA doing his job delivering. Now if The SCA does this with special considered, yes they deserve a tip.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> These are prepared boxes, all the SCA has to do is load several of these up and carry them to the Sleeper, hand them out. Not sure what to do here. There is no boxing up, making sure the order is correct, etc. If Amtrak expects the meals to be delivered, unless you say you will eat in the lounge, then is the SCA doing his job delivering. Now if The SCA does this with special considered, yes they deserve a tip.


There are five entrees, so they do have to get everyone's choices right, even if there aren't quite as many variations available as in a dining car. But it definitely is more than just walking through the sleeper and handing everyone an identical box.


----------



## Lonestar648

That is true. Of course no telling how things will really be on June 1st, so decisions on tipping can not be made until we really know how things end of working, which could be a few days or more to work out the bugs.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

On the eastbound empire builder I had an excellent attendant and he announced there was no need to tip him for dinner service. He went out of his way to make the available drinks as attractive as possible, serving cups of ice, etc.

On the westbound empire builder, you picked your breakfast up in the lounge from the SCA.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Every time Ive ridden the Portland Section of the Empire Builder the Boxed Meals ( Dinner on #28/Breakfast on #27)were passed out by the SCA in the Sightseer Lounge, so no tip for this service..

I guess if a Sleeping Car pax asked for Delivery to their room a tip would be in order, but keep in mind the consist is Very short, so there's not much walking involved to reach the Lounge unlike on the combined #27/#28/#7/#8 between CHI and SPK.


----------



## Anderson

My thinking is that, should I have the misfortune to deal with this service, I'll be tipping the SCA per normal and leave it at that if in my room. If in the lounge...well, this gets tricky since there's likely to not be a CC transaction to slip the tip on, so either I'll have a single or a dollar coin or...well, sorry, but I'm not inclined to bother much beyond that. No offense to the staff, but where I tip for the diner staff I do so in consideration of the fact that it's several people giving me at-seat service.


----------



## cpotisch

Anderson said:


> My thinking is that, should I have the misfortune to deal with this service, I'll be tipping the SCA per normal and leave it at that if in my room. If in the lounge...well, this gets tricky since there's likely to not be a CC transaction to slip the tip on, so either I'll have a single or a dollar coin or...well, sorry, but I'm not inclined to bother much beyond that. No offense to the staff, but where I tip for the diner staff I do so in consideration of the fact that it's several people giving me at-seat service.


But again, without prices listed, how will you calculate tipping for room service? There aren't any menu prices to base your tip on.


----------



## Steve4031

I would handle the tipping on a case by case basis. First I know I'm going to be supplementing this gruel with food from the snack car. I'll have appropriate amounts of money for sca tip. When I'm in the diner I'll tip based on what is provided. Individual employees will handle this different ways. Some will make an effort to enhance the experience. They will get the a few dollars tip on each visit. The indifferent ones may get 1 dollar. The rude and ignorant ones 0. The sca will get the standard 20 for great service and lesser service will get less. Ignorance and rudeness will get 0.


----------



## Anderson

cpotisch said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My thinking is that, should I have the misfortune to deal with this service, I'll be tipping the SCA per normal and leave it at that if in my room. If in the lounge...well, this gets tricky since there's likely to not be a CC transaction to slip the tip on, so either I'll have a single or a dollar coin or...well, sorry, but I'm not inclined to bother much beyond that. No offense to the staff, but where I tip for the diner staff I do so in consideration of the fact that it's several people giving me at-seat service.
> 
> 
> 
> But again, without prices listed, how will you calculate tipping for room service? There aren't any menu prices to base your tip on.
Click to expand...

I already tip the SCA $5-10. I'd be inclined to just leave it there.

Alternatively, I can make some mental ballparks as to what the meal is "worth" (breakfast is pretty worthless, but I'd probably assign $10-15 to the other meals).


----------



## Devil's Advocate

pennyk said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> This new contemporary boxed meal dining option sounds more like being served on an airline than in a restaurant. If airline staff aren't tipped for delivering a meal is there a reason why train staff should be?
> 
> 
> 
> Do passengers generally tip the attendant when getting their boxed meals on the Portland section of the Empire Builder? I have traveled both ways only once and I do not remember. This meal service may be similar if the passenger chooses to eat in the sleeper lounge as opposed to having the meal brought to her or his room.
Click to expand...

I have yet to ride the Empire Builder (seems like something unfortunate always delays/prevents it) so I honestly don't know. The closest experience I've had were the "premium" cold sandwiches in the (now defunct) PPC. That experience was disappointing enough that I did not feel like tipping afterward.



cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> These are prepared boxes, all the SCA has to do is load several of these up and carry them to the Sleeper, hand them out. Not sure what to do here. There is no boxing up, making sure the order is correct, etc. If Amtrak expects the meals to be delivered, unless you say you will eat in the lounge, then is the SCA doing his job delivering. Now if The SCA does this with special considered, yes they deserve a tip.
> 
> 
> 
> There are five entrees, so they do have to get everyone's choices right, even if there aren't quite as many variations available as in a dining car. But it definitely is more than just walking through the sleeper and handing everyone an identical box.
Click to expand...

Ordering, collecting, packing, and delivering Western route diner meals (along with desserts and condiments) requires some extra effort for which I am willing to tip. A small collection of cold boxed meals on one of the Eastern routes with further simplified dining really only requires a colored/lettered meal sticker and a selection/delivery lookup sheet. By my estimation it's about one tenth the effort as a typical SCA delivered meal on the Western trains.


----------



## tommylicious

are SCA's being reduced / scope of duties reduced / allocated elsewhere?


----------



## Rail Freak

I'm guessing meal time options will be eliminated


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Rail Freak said:


> I'm guessing meal time options will be eliminated


According to previous press releases Amtrak will continue to provide a range of times for sleeper customers to choose from. If anything the available meal times may actually _increase_ since there is no need for the diner to be prepped and open.


----------



## Larry H.

If it is any peek at future service the City of New Orleans yesterday had no time given but rather first come first serve. The one woman show did as good a job as she could an was under the circumstances. But it couldn't save the food from being quite irritating so far as selection and taste went. Many of the crew felt as I do that the food service is in real trouble and is going to effect the decisions of travelers as to wether they wish to pay for service with such poor overall food.

If I had to face the same selections for a couple days I would stay home instead.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The city of New Orleans has had that style of food and service for a while now. Way before Anderson... Maybe before Moorman as well?


----------



## jis

This is a time that I thought would never come ... where one wishes that Amtrak would start emulating airlines... and start backtracking on a few of the latest decisions, hearing loud protests from passengers. But probably not. Sigh ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/05/18/first-tomato-juice-now-meals-united-airlines-backtracks-again/622583002/


----------



## Lonestar648

Only time will tell, but for Amtrak its the F&B labor costs they have to cut to make Congress happy. And now Congress wants overtime significantly reduced on the LD trains.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> This is a time that I thought would never come ... where one wishes that Amtrak would start emulating airlines... and start backtracking on a few of the latest decisions, hearing loud protests from passengers. But probably not. Sigh ...
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/05/18/first-tomato-juice-now-meals-united-airlines-backtracks-again/622583002/


I think they HAVE started emulating the airlines concerning downgrading food offerings. One wonders, though, if they will follow suit in retracting food downgrades. I doubt it highly, given the mandate to break even.


----------



## jis

My point was about wishing Amtrak to emulate something good that the airlines did. Clearly, the downgrade was not something that many people wished that Amtrak emulate. But withdrawing downgrades is such a thing where emulation would be nice.


----------



## PaulM

I really don't want to wade through the 800 odd post to see if this has already been discussed. I presume serving those who want to eat in their room will work much like it does now. But what will be the procedure if you want to eat in in the sleeper only lounge?

Line up at a counter to place order? Attendant comes to your table to take order? SCA attendant delivers it to your room and you trudge with it through the train to the lounge? Order somehow taken ahead of time and delivered where?

Also, will you be able to occupy a seat in partially filled table if that is the only thing available?


----------



## DSS&A

CNN has an article about the "Romance of riding the train". The writer rode the Crescent and commented about the wonderful food in the dining car which is a lot better than one can get at 35,000 feet!!!!! 

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amtrak-crescent-new-orleans/index.html


----------



## benale

Except for the Cardinal City of New Orleans The Silver Star and soon the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Amtraks long distance trains still have a full service diner. Let's hope Anderson doesn't eliminate any more.


----------



## cpotisch

benale said:


> Except for the Cardinal City of New Orleans The Silver Star and soon the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Amtraks long distance trains still have a full service diner. Let's hope Anderson doesn't eliminate any more.


I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not, but five trains without full diners is a lot. There are 13 Amtrak long distance trains: CONO, CL, LSL, SS, Cardinal, EB, CS, CZ, TE, SL, SM, Crescent, and SWC. That means more than a third of them don’t have full service dining. Go back a few years and the Card was the only one without a full dining car.


----------



## TiBike

No one who actually knows what will happen has said anything publicly.

A guess? Food in a lounge works like food in a lounge – pick it up at a counter (or whatever they use), and sit wherever you can. No shortage of threads on the proper etiquette and use of lounge seats




.



PaulM said:


> I really don't want to wade through the 800 odd post to see if this has already been discussed. I presume serving those who want to eat in their room will work much like it does now. But what will be the procedure if you want to eat in in the sleeper only lounge?
> 
> Line up at a counter to place order? Attendant comes to you table to take order? SCA attendant delivers it to your room and you trudge with it through the train to the lounge? Order somehow taken ahead of time and delivered where?
> 
> Also, will you be able to occupy a seat in partially filled table if that is the only thing available?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

In the employee memo that was posted wayyyyyy back, it sounded like all meals would be delivered to your room by the SCA. If you wanted to eat in the lounge, you simply took your meal there.

How it will work in reality is anyone's guess, im sure each crew will make up their own rules.


----------



## Thirdrail7

TiBike said:


> No one who actually knows what will happen has said anything publicly.
> 
> A guess? Food in a lounge works like food in a lounge – pick it up at a counter (or whatever they use), and sit wherever you can. No shortage of threads on the proper etiquette and use of lounge seats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't want to wade through the 800 odd post to see if this has already been discussed. I presume serving those who want to eat in their room will work much like it does now. But what will be the procedure if you want to eat in in the sleeper only lounge?
> 
> Line up at a counter to place order? Attendant comes to you table to take order? SCA attendant delivers it to your room and you trudge with it through the train to the lounge? Order somehow taken ahead of time and delivered where?
> 
> Also, will you be able to occupy a seat in partially filled table if that is the only thing available?
Click to expand...





crescent-zephyr said:


> In the employee memo that was posted wayyyyyy back, it sounded like all meals would be delivered to your room by the SCA. If you wanted to eat in the lounge, you simply took your meal there.
> 
> How it will work in reality is anyone's guess, im sure each crew will make up their own rules.


I believe it will boil to Crescent-Zephyr's thoughts on crews making their own rules. Reading this without access to interpretation, I'd say the wording is ripe for misinterpretation. The SCA's will take your reservation as always. However, if you choose not to eat in your room, it doesn't specifically state that you should proceed to the lounge car, line up and ask for your food at the appointed time. Nor does it say the SCA must pick up the food, bring it to your room and you must make your way to the lounge car.

It does say at-table dining service is not available and that seating isn't assigned so sit where you can. This is an experiment and subject to refinement. There will be a learning curve...and once it is learned, someone will change it!





Here's an interesting thought from my sick mind. If you're a sleeping car passenger, can you order from THE CAFE or occupy the sleeper "lounge' without food during the scheduled meal periods? After all, it is a lounge. While I suspect the answer is yes, I can see what would happen if a few games broke out in the "lounge" while people want to eat their sandwiches.


----------



## cpotisch

As I interpret it, sleeper passengers can chill in the Sleeper Lounge whether or not they're eating. It seems like it's just a car for sleeper passengers to relax in, and if they want to dine there, so be it. Just my interpretation.


----------



## tommylicious

cpotisch said:


> As I interpret it, sleeper passengers can chill in the Sleeper Lounge whether or not they're eating. It seems like it's just a car for sleeper passengers to relax in, and if they want to dine there, so be it. Just my interpretation.


...with 35% of the car an idle, commercial kitchen. Utterly absurd.


----------



## Rail Freak

I believe I read that the new system will allow sleeping passengers unlimited soft drinks, is this correct? If so,on my routes they better fill that worthless kitchen with cases of tonic & an ice machine










!!!


----------



## cpotisch

Rail Freak said:


> I believe I read that the new system will allow sleeping passengers unlimited soft drinks, is this correct? If so,on my routes they better fill that worthless kitchen with cases of tonic & an ice machine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!!


Unlimited soft drinks and one hard drink. Imagine the LSA will provide them from the counter.


----------



## cpotisch

Checking on my phone it looks like the new menus has been taken down. They're not showing up on the route pages and I get a 404 if I try to click on the links already posted.

EDIT: Not showing up on my computer either. Interesting...


----------



## Ryan

Yep - the links used to be right here.


----------



## Steve4031

They may have gotten a LOT of angry emails.


----------



## Ryan

From people that have never actually seen the meals.


----------



## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> They may have gotten a LOT of angry emails.


Round up a posse!


----------



## cpotisch

Something that really irks me is that the dessert options are already decided for each entree. The salted caramel cheesecake at least sounded good to me, but the Vegan Wrap, the only option I could eat, comes with the "Vegan Dessert Bar". Wouldn't it be pretty easy to separate the dessert choices from the entrees? It would be a _little_ more work for the staff, but would offer passengers more variety, and make the selection that much more tolerable. It just infuriates me that if I were to take the Lake Shore or Capitol now, I would not have any choice on what I'd get. The one breakfast option in the morning, and the Vegan wrap for lunch/dinner. Before, I had 3-6 choices for every meal, now I have one.


----------



## TinCan782

This link...

https://www.amtrak.com/alert/contemporary-dining-capitol-ltd-lake-shore-ltd.html

is still there. Its an advisory, not the actual menu. Another link (see Ryan's post above) takes you to the current (ending 5/31) menu. The link still worked as I was typing this.

On the Capitol Limited page under routes.

https://www.amtrak.com/routes/capitol-limited-train.html


----------



## Ryan

There was a link to the actual menu starting 6/1. That what we are talking about that was removed.


----------



## spinnaker

Ryan said:


> From people that have never actually seen the meals.



Here we go again, Your typical response Who cares if they didn't see the meal? As long as the quality of the hot meal is good (And in my opinion the meals on the CL were very good).. A cold meal will never live up to a hot meal. People have the right to complain about cold meals. Just like they would have the right to complain about crappy hot meals. Which wasn't the case on the CL.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> From people that have never actually seen the meals.


Let's look at the facts:


Cold meals are harder to do well than hot meals - even if something isn't very tasty on its own, it still has heat going for it. Obviously stuff like salad is better cold, but with most entrees, heat is preferable.
The new selection is more limited than what has been offered. For breakfast, a cold continental is the only choice. Lunch and dinner have five options, which is a comparable number to the current offerings, but those options are the same for both meals. Also bear in mind that it won't be possible to order any variations on the listed items.
There are much fewer options for those with dietary restrictions. Pescatarians/vegetarians/vegans now do not have any choice whatsoever. There is *one* option for breakfast and *one* for lunch/dinner.
Those are the main issues that stand out to me. In no way do I _want_ to hate Amtrak's "Contemporary Dining". I will admit that I can appreciate the complimentary drinks, and that the Lake Shore is getting its AmCan replaced with a much nicer car. If this turns out to have been a wonderful change and I was flat out wrong, I'll be glad. But the way I see it now, and from what I've heard, this just doesn't seem good.


----------



## bratkinson

It's interesting that the new menu has been withdrawn from the Amtrak website. I'm thinking they've gotten a LOT of negative feedback about the new menu without a commensurate drop in sleeping car prices. Free soda and 1 free booze hardly make up for the loss of hot food! As a recovering alcoholic, I'd give my 'free booze' to another passenger that ordered some.

Thinking there's a fair number of other passengers that have decided to cancel future reservations on the two affected trains, I just did a quick look using Amsnag for June and July for the Lake Shore Ltd. Based on what I saw 3-4 weeks ago when I decided to book a trip to Chicago on the Lake Shore Ltd, there's been a significant number of cancellations. There's a surprising number of low-bucket prices for roomettes that weren't there a couple weeks ago.

However, I suspect that it's not just the food driving passengers away. I suspect that a significant number of already booked New York section passengers told Amtrak to refund their money when advised they would be on their own to get to/from Grand Central Terminal AND they'd have to ride in NEC spaced COACH seating to Albany (about 14" LESS legroom than Amfleet 2 LD coach seating). Maybe, just maybe, Amtrak has added extra business class cars to the Empire Service trains? I have my doubts they figured that one out, though. And what about the passengers riding Amtrak from south of NYC that now have to get to GCT to ride coach? If I were coming from PHL, WAS, even MIA ticketed to the LSL, I'd tell Amtrak to cancel the entire trip!


----------



## greatcats

My feelings at the moment after a day of depressing Amtrak news: My next trip will be a western ride trip in my Toyota. While I enjoy these trains in many ways we are now leaving Albuquerque 3 hours late due to recrewing,engine breaking down twice on Raton Pass, and removing a drunk or two. These things do not happen on road trips. [emoji30]


----------



## cpotisch

bratkinson said:


> NEC spaced COACH seating to Albany (about 14" LESS legroom than Amfleet 2 LD coach seating). Maybe, just maybe, Amtrak has added extra business class cars to the Empire Service trains?


The Maple Leaf, Adirondack, and beyond-Albany Empire Service trains all operate with a mixed consist of Amfleet Is and IIs. So if your taking any of those trains, and know to look for the cars with vestibules at one end, you'll still get to enjoy the space of a long distance coach seat.

That said, the fact that the LSL has lost its dining car AND requires a transfer to/from coach on a different train at Albany, certainly seems to have triggered a wave of cancellations and lost future sales. Hopefully management has noticed.


----------



## cpotisch

niemi24s said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, the fact that the LSL has lost its dining car AND requires a transfer to/from coach on a different train at Albany, certainly seems to have triggered a wave of cancellations and lost future sales.
> 
> 
> 
> ". . .certainly seems to have. . ."? _Really??_
> 
> Is this idle conjecture or is it actually based on factual inside information?
Click to expand...

Multiple people in this forum have explicitly said that they've cancelled reservations on the CL and LSL due to the loss of hot meals. And several of other's have said that said that they are finding other means of transport this summer because of it. And bratkinson is right, prices have dropped significantly in the past few weeks. This forum is obviously a small sample size, but if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing, the LSL and CL certainly don't _appear_ to be doing well.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

cpotisch said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, the fact that the LSL has lost its dining car AND requires a transfer to/from coach on a different train at Albany, certainly seems to have triggered a wave of cancellations and lost future sales.
> 
> 
> 
> ". . .certainly seems to have. . ."? _Really??_
> 
> Is this idle conjecture or is it actually based on factual inside information?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Multiple people in this forum have explicitly said that they've cancelled reservations on the CL and LSL due to the loss of hot meals. And several of other's have said that said that they are finding other means of transport this summer because of it. And bratkinson is right, prices have dropped significantly in the past few weeks. This forum is obviously a small sample size, but if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing, the LSL and CL certainly don't _appear_ to be doing well.
Click to expand...

They will likely blame the drop in LSL R & R more on the fact that it doesn't serve NYP, the CL will be a better indication (or the LSL in the fall once it serves NYP again).


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing


What makes you think that people invested enough in passenger rail to spend hours out of their day arguing on the internet about it are in any way representative of the average Amtrak passenger?


----------



## Ryan

My iMac has 39 open tabs at the moment.

Two of them featured the now-removed versions of the menu.





This is what it looked like.


----------



## OBS

Interesting the "free" wine is the larger half bottle serving, ie 2 glass portion...I guess quality was the priority...


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that people invested enough in passenger rail to spend hours out of their day arguing on the internet about it are in any way representative of the average Amtrak passenger?
Click to expand...

Firstly, thanks for the menu screenshot. Secondly, while AU definitely isn't a group of typical Amtrak passengers, I don't see why we'd be more eager than the average person to cancel a trip, because of the new food offerings. If anything, I might expect that we would be _more _likely than the average person to keep riding, since most riders aren't so in love with trains that they want to take Amtrak no matter what. My point is, the fact that many members have cancelled their tickets because of this change, really does not indicate to me that these changes are having a positive effect.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that people invested enough in passenger rail to spend hours out of their day arguing on the internet about it are in any way representative of the average Amtrak passenger?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Firstly, thanks for the menu screenshot. Secondly, while AU definitely isn't a group of typical Amtrak passengers, I don't see why we'd be more eager than the average person to cancel a trip, because of the new food offerings. If anything, I might expect that we would be _more _likely than the average person to keep riding, since most riders aren't so in love with trains that they want to take Amtrak no matter what. My point is, the fact that many members have cancelled their tickets because of this change, really does not indicate to me that these changes are having a positive effect.
Click to expand...

Maybe most Amtrak riders aren't as picky as AUers. Though I'm not thrilled with the offerings, I'm wouldn't cancel or trip, or refuse to book one, on a less than 24 hour trip just because I don't like the food. I'll pack some food to my liking. The food options offered on airlines don't appeal to me either, but I'm not going to not fly because of it.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> if it's any indication of what Amtrak passengers are doing
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that people invested enough in passenger rail to spend hours out of their day arguing on the internet about it are in any way representative of the average Amtrak passenger?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Firstly, thanks for the menu screenshot. Secondly, while AU definitely isn't a group of typical Amtrak passengers, I don't see why we'd be more eager than the average person to cancel a trip, because of the new food offerings. If anything, I might expect that we would be _more _likely than the average person to keep riding, since most riders aren't so in love with trains that they want to take Amtrak no matter what. My point is, the fact that many members have cancelled their tickets because of this change, really does not indicate to me that these changes are having a positive effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe most Amtrak riders aren't as picky as AUers. Though I'm not thrilled with the offerings, I'm wouldn't cancel or trip, or refuse to book one, on a less than 24 hour trip just because I don't like the food. I'll pack some food to my liking. The food options offered on airlines don't appeal to me either, but I'm not going to not fly because of it.
Click to expand...

It all boils down to what your travel options are. Travel is for many people a necessity and for others a means to get to a desired location. The travel experience isn't what it was yesterday. Whether it is Amtrak or the airlines, the trend is going to be less amenities for the dollar. They know you "have" to travel (especially Amtrak since if you travel intercity by train you don't have any other choice). If you don't want to fly, your travel options are cut significantly. If you are perfectly OK with flying, your first choice between Chicago and New York or Chicago and Washington is going to be the airplane unless Amtrak really, really makes it attractive or unless the TSA makes flying really, really unpleasant. Amtrak steaks may impress people on AU but they don't impress most people, especially the price you'd have to pay for them (assuming they would be available). I think the only way Amtrak could beat United/American in those markets is if the fare were cheaper (and that would never happen). So the idea that Amtrak is losing CHI-NYP and CHI-WAS passengers to the airplanes by cutting Amtrak steaks? They didn't have many of them to begin with.


----------



## TinCan782

While Ryan's post above shows the "meat" of the menu, here is the PDF of the entire menu which I downloaded recently.

Just love the opening statement...

_"We are committed to making your dining experience with us even better, which is why we are introducing a new style of service"._

Lake-Shore-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0518.pdf


----------



## jis

Never trust a marketeer or salesman




Their job is to sell, not to be truthful necessarily.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I was wondering what they meant by "chilled beef tenderloin". They forgot one key word... "salad". It makes all the sense in the world now.


----------



## PVD

The beyond Albany Empire Service trains do not normally run AM-2. They are seen on the Leaf, the Lake, and the ADK, in mixed consists, but not Empire Service sets.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> The beyond Albany Empire Service trains do not normally run AM-2. They are seen on the Leaf, the Lake, and the ADK, in mixed consists, but not Empire Service sets.


Exactly. There is no difference of consist between east/south of Albany Empire Service and west of Albany Empire Service. Exact same consists.

Remember that the Maple Leaf is not counted as west of Albany Empire Service, even though it is funded in the US by NYSDOT. Only Niagara Falls trains are Empire Service for the consideration of consists.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I was wondering what they meant by "chilled beef tenderloin". They forgot one key word... "salad". It makes all the sense in the world now.


It sounds dastardly and this is why I have a problem.



cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> From people that have never actually seen the meals.
Click to expand...

It is true I haven't seen the meal but I do know this much. It is a far cry from what was offered...* for the same price* and you've hidden that fact under marketing buzzwords. Be honest and let them know you're trying to drive down costs as part of a federal mandate.

Other than that, if you're going to give people the salami, at least make well known and be honest like you were with Star. We know you're not getting anything but a reheated over-salted green plate special and for that, we're going to lower the prices.

I don't need to see "Greek Yogurt" to know that it isn't going to compare to french toast and bacon that I received a month ago * for the same fare* I don't need to see the "Chilled Tenderloin Salad' to know it isn't the flank steak I ate a few months ago for the * same fare*.

It's bogus.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The beyond Albany Empire Service trains do not normally run AM-2. They are seen on the Leaf, the Lake, and the ADK, in mixed consists, but not Empire Service sets.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. There is no difference of consist between east/south of Albany Empire Service and west of Albany Empire Service. Exact same consists.
> 
> Remember that the Maple Leaf is not counted as west of Albany Empire Service, even though it is funded in the US by NYSDOT.* Only Niagara Falls trains are Empire Service for the consideration of consists.*
Click to expand...


Not true. They are all a part of the Empire Pool of equipment which includes AM1s and AM2s. How NYSDOT decides to assign their pool is totally up to them. They could make a call tomorrow and decide they want AM2s on the Ethan Allen instead of the Adirondack and Amtrak would say "whatever works" and that would be that.

Not that this matters. Starting next week, you won;t see AM2s on any of the trains and a few sets are losing their split clubs.


----------



## jis

So did NYSDOT actually run AM-2s on the Niagara Falls service? I am asking about what is, not what is theoretically possible.





Thanks for the interesting tidbit BTW, about what will happen starting next week!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I wish you could mix and match a few items like sides and desserts. Since everything is prepackaged it doesn't seem like that would be too much to ask for really.

It also seems odd that the warning about all foods may contain wheat, fish, etc. Is on the menu. If these are fully pre-packaged meals, there should be a certified gluten free meal abailable.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> So did NYSDOT actually run AM-2s on the Niagara Falls service? I am asking about what is, not what is theoretically possible.


It has been done many times (without penalty or repercussions) just like we ran all AM1's on the Adirondack and Maple Leaf (without penalty or repercussions)....just like what will occur over the next few months.

Manipulation is manipulation!





Now, when you steal one of their dual modes and put it on a long distance train to WAS...............


----------



## jis

But normally what was the case? Or is normality a concept way beyond Amtrak in its emaciated state?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> But normally what was the case? Or is normality a concept way beyond Amtrak in its emaciated state?


(sheepishly) Normally, you are 100% correct. The AM2s are assigned to specific trains as called for by the Empire Service operating plan. Failure to follow the plan CAN lead to penalties. This is the case with most state supported plans.


----------



## bratkinson

In following this thread on and off, and in particular, the last few days, got me wondering...What is Andersons' plan with this cold-meals for sleeper passengers?

While it seems to be obvious that he's looking to get rid of all the LD trains, starting with the 'most costly' routes (SWC more expensive per passenger than the Cardinal or Sunset? That's a new one on me!) by eliminating agents and hot food, perhaps he has a more 'not so obvious' plan. It just hit me in the past 5 minutes or so that he really wants to show the significant drop in ridership on the LSL and CL as a result of the food service cuts.

Maybe 4-5 months from now he'll tell congress that what would normally be sold-out-all-summer trains are now running at 60% or so, because of the food cuts that congress requires Amtrak to implement in the next year or so. Perhaps he's just as upset about cutting costs deeper than the bone as we are.

But then, 60% plus/minus occupied seat (and/or bed) miles would be a good justification to cut the train altogether. And after the LSL & CL are gone, take on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent, etc, until they're all gone. Throw in his 'no PTC, no Amtrak trains' routine, he will have a 'double-whammy' means of shedding the LD routes... One can only wait and see and contact our representatives in Washington.


----------



## cpotisch

bratkinson said:


> In following this thread on and off, and in particular, the last few days, got me wondering...What is Andersons' plan with this cold-meals for sleeper passengers?
> 
> While it seems to be obvious that he's looking to get rid of all the LD trains, starting with the 'most costly' routes (SWC more expensive per passenger than the Cardinal or Sunset? That's a new one on me!) by eliminating agents and hot food, perhaps he has a more 'not so obvious' plan. It just hit me in the past 5 minutes or so that he really wants to show the significant drop in ridership on the LSL and CL as a result of the food service cuts.
> 
> Maybe 4-5 months from now he'll tell congress that what would normally be sold-out-all-summer trains are now running at 60% or so, because of the food cuts that congress requires Amtrak to implement in the next year or so. Perhaps he's just as upset about cutting costs deeper than the bone as we are.
> 
> But then, 60% plus/minus occupied seat (and/or bed) miles would be a good justification to cut the train altogether. And after the LSL & CL are gone, take on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent, etc, until they're all gone. Throw in his 'no PTC, no Amtrak trains' routine, he will have a 'double-whammy' means of shedding the LD routes... One can only wait and see and contact our representatives in Washington.


I don’t think he’s pulling reverse psychology on Congress. It just seems that there are less elaborate, complicated, and risky ways of telling them that food service is good for ridership.


----------



## keelhauled

Forgive me if it has already been posted, but this has some (alleged) details about how it was communicated to employees, most notably that the cold meals were/are not necessarily meant to be permenant, and that eventually Amtrak wants passengers to be able to choose meals before the day of travel.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I was wondering what they meant by "chilled beef tenderloin". They forgot one key word... "salad". It makes all the sense in the world now.


Now that is a scary though! When it comes to dinner/supper, I almost always want a hot meal consisting of meat, potatoes, a vegetable or 2 and, of course, a roll for mop up duty. A side salad is fine but if I want a salad as the main course, I'll pasture with the cattle and graze!


----------



## cpotisch

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering what they meant by "chilled beef tenderloin". They forgot one key word... "salad". It makes all the sense in the world now.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that is a scary though! When it comes to dinner/supper, I almost always want a hot meal consisting of meat, potatoes, a vegetable or 2 and, of course, a roll for mop up duty. A side salad is fine but if I want a salad as the main course, I'll pasture with the cattle and graze!
Click to expand...

I’ve personally got nothing against salad as a main course (though I usually tend towards the veggie burger). However, a pre-packaged cold beef salad doesn’t really make my stomach rumble (even putting aside the fact that I don’t eat meat).


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

And that, to me, unfortunately looks like the "best" of all the choices.


----------



## PaulM

bratkinson said:


> One can only wait and see and contact our representatives in Washington.


Assuming your representatives don't represent NEC states, their response should be: no LD, no NEC (subsidy). After all, take away LD trains and that leaves only the NEC, since by law other corridors are the responsibility of the states. NEC trains claim to make money "over the rails". But I seem to recall a lot of begging for funding for very expensive infrastructure, track, stations, catenary, tunnels, and bridges.


----------



## TinCan782

I've sent an email to the VP of Customer Experience...email address on the new menu...waiting for the (canned) response.


----------



## cpotisch

The menu is still down. I could be just letting my imagination run wild, but this definitely seems intentional...


----------



## TinCan782

cpotisch said:


> The menu is still down. I could be just letting my imagination run wild, but this definitely seems intentional...


Yes, but they still have the "advisory" up on the LSL and CL pages and still show the current menus.


----------



## cpotisch

FrensicPic said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> The menu is still down. I could be just letting my imagination run wild, but this definitely seems intentional...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but they still have the "advisory" up on the LSL and CL pages but still show the current menu.
Click to expand...

It's possible there could be a menu change or something like that. It can't really mean anything big, but something like that doesn't seem completely out of the question.


----------



## spinnaker

Here is a question that maybe should be a poll. If Amtrak said they would raise the CL ticket say another $25, $50, $100 but keep the old menu, would you pay the extra money or just not ride? Me? The reason I ride the train is not to save money. If I wanted to do that then I would fly or better take the bus.

When I travel, I no longer stay at flea bag hotels. I am still not up to first class when flying but I do pay extra for more legroom and avoid the budget airlines like the plague. When I ride the train I usually take a roomette for comfort. In my opinion, it is the perfect way to travel. The only thing that keeps me from using the train more is time. The extra cost is really not an issue for me.

I would think that most people that lay out the cash for a roomettte aren't going to balk at an extra $50 or $100 if it means keeping the trains running with good service.

So what say you? Are you willing to pay more for your room on the train?


----------



## JRR

It seems to me that we are already paying the extra especially if you don’t get the low bucket.


----------



## spinnaker

JRR said:


> It seems to me that we are already paying the extra especially if you don’t get the low bucket.


Obviously you are paying extra for a room. Do you expect to pay the same as coach?

And I did not mention "extra". Read my post again.


----------



## JRR

spinnaker said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that we are already paying the extra especially if you don’t get the low bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously you are paying extra for a room. Do you expect to pay the same as coach?
> 
> And I did not mention "extra". Read my post again.
Click to expand...

No argument intended. Just wanted to point out that the room charge includes the meals and from my experience, it is a high price and that the price of a room or roomette is almost always more than the low bucket so I was not referring to paying more than coach.

Not saying I wouldn’t pay more, but feel that I often pay a lot extra above low bucket, and see the charge for a bedroom at really high prices.

That being said, there is a limit to the price one can charge. Each individual makes the determination for oneself.

When the meal is included, there is no way to determine what the proper costs are so no way to determine what “extra” would need to be charged to fully cover the cost.

Absent an outside audit to determine the proper costs and revenue, we will never know.

Further, (Congresses directive notwithstanding), even if meal service is not fully covered by the “meal revenue”, that does not mean that the meals do not cause an increased revenue which would be lost if meals were discontinued ( for purposes of this post I am including all food and beverage service as “meals”).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

$100 for a dinner and breakfast on the capitol? No thanks. I'll take a box lunch for $100 savings and I think most would if given the choice. (Especially if they knew how inconsistent the dining car food is).


----------



## Ryan

There was some back of the envelope guessing on how much sleeper fares would need to increase to cover F&B losses. Can’t find it on my phone, but I seem to recall it being more than $100.


----------



## jebr

I don't know if I'd pay an extra 2,000 points or so (which I think is around $60) to have the proposed menu changed back to the old style of menu and service. Nor do I think that'd be enough to cover the full cost differential between wait-staff, cooked-on-board service and pre-packaged meal service.

The diner service as it's been set up is quite labor intensive, and I don't really see wait-staff service as desirable enough to want to pay extra for it. I really don't think R. Anderson finds that aspect of the service as worthy of federal subsidy, especially since the law is still on the books that F&B has to "break even" by 2020 (I think.) If it's workable, I could see myself willing to pay extra (or finding the extra cost justifiable) for a chef on board if the service attendant for that car could handle the ordering process from a counter, calling order names/numbers, and either the chef or the service attendant prepping side items. Other than that, my main feedback is that there needs to be hot options (which I hope are added quickly; hopefully as soon as the staff are comfortable with the new process of meal service) and more options for breakfast (seriously, hard boiled eggs should be added to the current tray, perhaps being subbed in for one of the breakfast bars, and a hot breakfast sandwich with side option added as well.)

As for advocacy, I don't think there's going to be many open ears to simply reverting back to the old way of doing things; the labor costs are simply too high compared to pre-packaged meal service that doesn't use wait staff. (And, at least from what I've read on AU, a lot of the entrees were already pre-packaged and simply heated up.) That said, I'd hope that they're open to refinements on this plan or other ideas that use a similar amount of labor; this plan certainly isn't perfect and even within the labor confines of this plan there's more that can be done to make the change better. (Seriously, hot entree options!)


----------



## bratkinson

Ryan said:


> There was some back of the envelope guessing on how much sleeper fares would need to increase to cover F&B losses. Can’t find it on my phone, but I seem to recall it being more than $100.





jebr said:


> I don't know if I'd pay an extra 2,000 points or so (which I think is around $60) to have the proposed menu changed back to the old style of menu and service. Nor do I think that'd be enough to cover the full cost differential between wait-staff, cooked-on-board service and pre-packaged meal service.


If one were to turn back the clock to 1990 or so, when Amtrak 'buried' the dining car costs into the sleeper fare they used some kind of formula to determine something like: 1 person, dinner & breakfast = $35 (in todays' dollars), etc. Whatever that calculation must have worked reasonably well as F&B costs were not a major 'sore spot' until John Mica appeared in Washington and decided he'd micro-manage every dollar for Amtrak, that he really wanted to kill completely.

In todays' terms, would pricing the currently $25 steak dinner at $35 work better, adding the extra $10 to per person sleeper fare? The question becomes what would a coach passenger be willing to pay for the same meal? Obviously Amtrak made some kind of meal calculations 2 years ago when they removed the diner from the Silver Star and roomette costs dropped anywhere from $15 or so to more than $100 vs the same (common) board/deboard cities, depending on what buckets are being offered. So, what if they simply do the same with the Lakeshore and Capitol Ltd...take the 'free meals' away from the first class ticket prices and go back to ala carte pricing in the dining car. Unfortunately, that provides more opportunity for cash shortages by the staff. Making it cashless only would drive away a LOT of customers, in my opinion. How would they process a credit card while traversing the emptiness of a lot of the southwestern states where there's no cell service? Perhaps they could piggyback on PTC bandwidth for credit & debit cards? Even Apple Pay etc won't work without cell service.

Maybe the solution is to implement an upgraded-selection to what's available now on the Cardinal. In my opinion, it's not as bad as many make it to be. Somehow, the Cardinal feeds 2 Viewliners full of passengers and 3 or 4 coaches from a single service car. Most of the meals are simple heat-and-eat variety handled by ONE person handling the dining section and another handling the snack bar and some cooking functions for the dining section. They're both working non-stop during meal times, but they likely get their breaks during the non-meal times. How would it work with 3 sleepers & 6 coaches like the Lakeshore will be running? They'd have to put a second 'meal car' in place, probably like the Lakeshore does when it has both Boston & New York sections. They'd both be laid out like the Cardinals' lounge/dining car. Alternatively, keeping the Amfleet 2 'dining car' currently in use on the Lakeshore seems to work quite well in my opinion with a crew of 3. Meals are all heat-and-eat, too.

Another option would be to put the same meals as the Acela first class passengers get in the planned 'first class lounge/place-to-eat' car. The single attendant could easily heat the meals selected by the passengers. But I'd open it up to coach and business class passengers as well with items appropriately priced. The few times I've used an upgrade to Acela first class was at breakfast time and I NEVER had a decent breakfast on the Acela. It's doubtful I'll ride the Acela again because of the food. But that's my opinion.

If it were up to me, they should make the diners all 'ala carte' and remove the extra charge from the sleepers. The key would be to price the food such that the diners & lounges break even or close to it. The union would scream bloody murder, but contracting it out like they tried (and failed) in the Empire corridor a couple years ago would be worth another try...and I'm a former TCU union member! Give each union member a decent severance based on years of service, etc. They'll still get RRR when they reach 60, just not the 100% rate with 30 years service. I've seen it happen too many times, especially in contracted-out operations, both white- and blue-collar jobs. A new company gets the contract, tells the current workers take a pay & benefits cut or take a hike. Sadly, that's the way business has to run if they want to keep their stockholders happy.

Whatever dining car 'solution' ultimately gets implemented on LD trains, I'm quite sure the days of steak dinners and eggs cooked-to-order at breakfast will soon be a thing of the past on all LD trains. So ride 'em while you still can get hot food! I'll miss the lush chocolate deserts, too!


----------



## Palmetto

I still don't see how tables for 4 with booth seating is a "lounge".


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> I still don't see how tables for 4 with booth seating is a "lounge".


What do you consider a lounge? The SSL has booths and the swivel chairs, as did the PPC, but both of those are Amtrak inventions (the PPC never existed as we saw it on the Santa fe).
Traditional lounges I've been in had single seats facing in towards the center of the car, via rail park car as an example.


----------



## cpotisch

Palmetto said:


> I still don't see how tables for 4 with booth seating is a "lounge".


It's a place for people to chill away from their rooms. Don't see why that's not a lounge.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Include me in the not worth $100 extra to ride the Cap or LSL.

I favor going back to the modified traditional operation of Diners,Lounges and Cafes which had all food and beverages a la carte for Sleeper,Lounge and Coach passengers.

Of course being able to pre-order when you book would be wonderful but since this is common sense it won't happen @ Ambus!

What they've done to the Starvation,CONO and now the Cap and LSL( as well as taking the PPCs off the Starlight which is now just another train with good scenery) is a disgrace! YMMV


----------



## Yumacool

Lots of comments here, so I might as well add my two cents. I realize these cuts are coming because of a wrong-headed congressional mandate, but dining cars are essential to long distance travelers. My wife and I have been on numerous long Amtrak trips and eating in the diner and associating with other passengers has always been a highlight. Moving to cold meals of sandwiches and chips sounds terrible. Also, my wife has to be gluten free and these meals don't allow for that. And, besides, who wants to travel on two or three day trips that feature cold meals/box lunches all the way? And breakfast sandwiches and sweet yogurt that my wife can't eat? Very disappointing, and we've traveled tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak.

Another point. Sleeper travel on Amtrak is hugely expensive -- much more than air fare. Taking away the diner experience will be the end of the road for many long distance sleeper customers. What does this mean for the future of the long distance passenger train?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't see how tables for 4 with booth seating is a "lounge".
> 
> 
> 
> What do you consider a lounge? The SSL has booths and the swivel chairs...
Click to expand...

The SSL's chairs haven't swiveled for many years now. Apparently they were locked down by some FRA decree. Normally I'd be disappointed but the idea of combining three separate seats into a single pivoting contraption never made any sense to me.



cpotisch said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't see how tables for 4 with booth seating is a "lounge".
> 
> 
> 
> It's a place for people to chill away from their rooms. Don't see why that's not a lounge.
Click to expand...

For me Amtrak's fiberglass DC and SSL look and feel more like a generic fast food dining room than a genuine lounge. Compare the DC/SSL to the PPC and VIA Park cars to see what I mean.



Bob Dylan said:


> Include me in the not worth $100 extra to ride the Cap or LSL.


The routes I rode most have already gone up more than $100 in the last few years alone. Will they finally break even at $200? Or is this a meaningless moving target with no end in sight?


----------



## jis

As far as cost of Sleeper goes, I reached a point where I started preferring flying round trip to Tahiti (just to pick a random far away attractive place) than to travel the same route cross country one more time by Sleeper, for about the same price. But then I am probably not a typical traveler or user of Amtrak either. So I am not sure what that chocie of mine exactly means for Amtrak on the whole.


----------



## KmH

Yumacool said:


> Another point. Sleeper travel on Amtrak is hugely expensive -- much more than air fare.


Have you priced airfare that includes a bed, if such is available for your flight?

How about the price of business or first class airfare (sans a bed), plus transportation from the destination airport, if necessary?

Is comparing airfare prices to train prices kind of like comparing apples to baseballs.

I can fly round trip Iowa (DSM) to Sacramento _Biz/First_ for essentially the same as it cost me to ride the CZ from OTM to SAC in a Roomette this last March - $900.

Round trip on the train, 12 meals and a bed for 4 nights were included in my cost.

No doubt, I haven't factored in being assumed to be a criminal at the airport before boarding the plane, being herded and wedged into the econo seating space with the other sardines, layovers in airports along the way, etc.

Factor in too that for many of us regular or semiregular Amtrak riders the train itself is our destination.


----------



## jebr

For me, first/biz isn't nearly as necessary on a 4-hour flight than sleeper is on a 2-day train ride. On a four-hour flight, I'm typically travelling during my normal awake hours, so being in a seat is fine. On an overnight (or two-overnight) trip, I'll want to lay down and sleep somewhere. Thus, people may easily compare sleeper on a train to economy or economy plus on a flight; the upgrade isn't needed until it gets into the overnight hours. (And, of course, if I'm flying first class I don't need to be worried about being "herded and wedged into the econo seating space.") Having TSA Pre is definitely helpful, and if I'm flying internationally having NEXUS/GE helps a lot too.

Sure, the train is the destination in many cases, and for me train travel definitely adds to the experience, but if sleeper service went away I'd honestly just switch to flying instead of taking overnight train segments. Of course, that's helped by the fact that I'm at a hub airport for Delta and almost every major or semi-major domestic airline flies into MSP. (Even now I only take overnight trips when points allow; almost all of my cash trips are short-distance trips, even if they're on LD trains.)


----------



## Devil's Advocate

KmH said:


> Yumacool said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another point. Sleeper travel on Amtrak is hugely expensive -- much more than air fare.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you priced airfare that includes a bed, if such is available for your flight?
Click to expand...

Why would you need a bed to fly anywhere Amtrak goes?



KmH said:


> How about the price of business or first class airfare (sans a bed), plus transportation from the destination airport, if necessary?


Where I live flying First Class to any major city in lower 48 is typically cheaper than Amtrak sleeper compartments, and has been for many years now.



KmH said:


> No doubt, I haven't factored in being assumed to be a criminal at the airport before boarding the plane, being herded and wedged into the econo seating space with the other sardines, layovers in airports along the way, etc.


Running away from a problem doesn't make the problem go away. Now that the TSA has a valuable revenue generating system (PreCheck) they have an incentive to spread their influence as far and wide as possible. Logic and reason aside, there is no rule or law that prevents airport style security theater from infiltrating major passenger rail terminals. One highly publicized attack on a passenger train station during a friendly administration's tenure and here comes the TSA (or another similar entity).


----------



## jis

DA has made most of the points I was going to make. However to add some color to it....

This relative price discussion is so extremely origin/destination and also personal taste specific that it boils down to almost meaningless.

Take Orlando to Los Angeles for example.

Amtrak Sleeper is $1435 in Roomette two months out. Orlando is 60 miles from my home, about the same distance that Orlando Airport is.

United First Class $499 in Domestic First Class - nonstop, including a free meal and freshly baked Chocolate Chip cookie




and all the Tomato Juice in the world





I suspect that Yumacool may be thinking of an itinerary of this sort. This of course does not mean that such is true in all cases. One can be interested in other itineraries where train will come out cheaper and even faster taking everything into account.

In general, I personally like to take the train, but I would seldom take this itinerary from Orlando to Los Angeles by train, even after service is restored from Florida to New Orleans. As I have mentioned in a previous message, there are too many other places to visit and experience in the world, for me to fritter away time and money on traveling the same route over and over and over again. But that is just me.

OTOH, if I am traveling from San Louis Obispo to LA, I would probably opt for taking Amtrak California on price over the $300+ flight, even though it takes considerably more time on the train even after one has factored in the favorite whipping thing TSA of train enthusiasts and all the to/fro travel to and from airport to wherever.

Every individual has their own taste, prerogatives and choices to make, for every origin/destination pair.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

When Amtrak police have questioned me (multiple "random" selections in chicago, both in the station and on the train before departing) I felt more like a criminal being questioned than TSA has ever made me feel. Even when my luggage was alerted and scanned at an airport they just routinely searched my bag, swabbed the electronics and off I was.

Im not saying I like the TSA, but if that's your reason for avoiding amtrak, just wait till you meet the Amtrak cops!


----------



## jebr

Just to see, I searched for flights from Vancouver to Miami, the furthest reaches of the Amtrak system that I could think of. A one way flight in economy on August 2 is $346, leaves Vancouver at 8:20 AM and arrives in Miami at 9:12 PM, with a two hour layover in Phoenix. While certainly some long flights, I probably wouldn't feel the need to upgrade past a standard economy seat, and that's cheaper than coach on Amtrak ($389.) First class starts around $725 (though options vary wildly) which is still half the price of sleeper on the same itinerary/departure date, and has the benefit of not requiring four nights in transit. (The other end-to-end, SAN/LAX - Portland, ME, isn't even possible on Amtrak without an overnight stay but is $250 for a one-way flight without a single overnight.)

Outside of some oddball cases to small airports where connections don't time well, I don't think there's any itinerary that would require an overnight in transit if it's not desired, and even the oddball cases would likely have an overnight layover at the airport/airport hotel, which would still be cheaper than the Amtrak itinerary in almost every case.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

It doesn't always come down just to money or not wanting the annoying airport hassles.

Some of us truly can't fly. The last couple of times I flew, I felt truly ill from the awful air, plus claustrophobic, plus terrified of take-off and landing. That was years ago, but I can't believe that it has gotten any better.

For me, the only choice for a long trip in this country is the train.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

It will be a sad day when the only long distance public transport in this country is a cramped, probably low-quality bus, or a crowded, cramped airplane with security.

At least Amtrak coach is roomy, and you can walk around and get food on board.


----------



## Yumacool

No one has yet commented (that I have seen) on the new cold meals for gluten free or wheat free passengers. It is probable that special meals of this type would be salads. But if one is truly taking a long trip, salads at each meal just don't cut it. Look at a train like the Lake Shore Limited. An end-point to end-point ride involves numerous meals and an all-salad menu doesn't sound appetizing. And what if this menu was implemented on multi-day western trains? That could kill the deal as far as long distance travel.

Many of us have spouses with whom we take train trips. I've taken my wife along for years and she has always enjoyed the dining car experience. If that is gone, it will be difficult for me to get her on a train.


----------



## PVD

I don't disagree that special meal choices should be better. But end to end, the LSL is a 2 meals from the dining car trip, hardly "numerous"


----------



## cpotisch

Yumacool said:


> No one has yet commented (that I have seen) on the new cold meals for gluten free or wheat free passengers. It is probable that special meals of this type would be salads. But if one is truly taking a long trip, salads at each meal just don't cut it. Look at a train like the Lake Shore Limited. An end-point to end-point ride involves numerous meals and an all-salad menu doesn't sound appetizing. And what if this menu was implemented on multi-day western trains? That could kill the deal as far as long distance travel.
> 
> Many of us have spouses with whom we take train trips. I've taken my wife along for years and she has always enjoyed the dining car experience. If that is gone, it will be difficult for me to get her on a train.


The Lake Shore Limited, and for the most the part, the Capitol, only serve two meals. So if any trains are to get this menu, I'm pretty glad it's those. That said, this menu is pretty much unacceptable for passengers with dietary restrictions. As I've said multiple times, if you don't eat meat you will not have any choice when you order. The gluten free selection is also pretty limited, but I feel like it could be worse.


----------



## jis

Do we even know any more what the actual "This menu" is going to be, now that the sneak preview has been removed? Or did the same one or a different one appear again while I was not looking?


----------



## jis

Here is a nice Op-Ed on the subject, put together by Carl Fowler, one of the Vice-Chairs of RPA.

https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/05/20/op-ed-amtrak-cuts-in-food-service-a-mistake/


----------



## greatcats

JIS- I have not commented on this thread before, but am disgusted by these idiotic “ experiments. “ Having just ridden the Cardinal this past week, I understand why On this type of car why conventional meals are not served. I found the cuisine, except for the hot roast beef sandwich, definitely sub par. And the same menu is on the CONO. Shame on these blasted bureaucrats. I will say the Cardinal is an interesting ride and the crews were good.


----------



## NE933

There is a posting on Trainorders.com that suggests good news on this front. Read it for yourselves.


----------



## Yumacool

True, but breakfast can be the worst meal for gluten free people eating pre-packaged meals, for they can't eat muffins or breakfast sandwiches.


----------



## Ryan

NE933 said:


> There is a posting on Trainorders.com that suggests good news on this front. Read it for yourselves.


There is nothing new there. It has already been noted here that the menus are gone.

We’ll know what that means in 10 days or less.


----------



## pennyk

Yumacool said:


> True, but breakfast can be the worst meal for gluten free people eating pre-packaged meals, for they can't eat muffins or breakfast sandwiches.


If the menu previously on-line is accurate, a Kashi Bar and a Kind Bar will be offered for breakfast. I know that many Kind Bars are gluten free and I believe many Kashi Bars are as well. Since I have food allergies, I always travel with "bars."


----------



## jis

All that one can surmise is something may be changing in the plans. But we will not know for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.

All that I have heard is that there may have been some pointed Congressional intervention for a few individuals since the last time I paid attention to this. There has also been some pointed Congressional intervention on the issue of certain station agents or lack thereof. The results of that are also not known at present. Again, the fat lady has gotta sing first!


----------



## cpotisch

Has it ever happened before that Amtrak decided to retract a change like this due to customer backlash, even before its actually in place? My guess is no, and I highly doubt that the removal of the new menus is indicative of anything significant. Probably no more then a typo or slight difference in the offerings, the way I see it...


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> All that one can surmise is something may be changing in the plans. But we will not know for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.
> 
> All that I have heard is that there may have been some pointed Congressional intervention for a few individuals since the last time I paid attention to this. There has also been some pointed Congressional intervention on the issue of certain station agents or lack thereof. The results of that are also not known at oppresent.


I will note there have been some slight tweaks to the press release, there is now no more reference to the kind of food that might be served. This leads me to believe Amtrak is tweaking the menu but not changing the overall pilot program.


----------



## cpotisch

bretton88 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> All that one can surmise is something may be changing in the plans. But we will not know for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.
> 
> All that I have heard is that there may have been some pointed Congressional intervention for a few individuals since the last time I paid attention to this. There has also been some pointed Congressional intervention on the issue of certain station agents or lack thereof. The results of that are also not known at oppresent.
> 
> 
> 
> I will note there have been some slight tweaks to the press release, there is now no more reference to the kind of food that might be served. This leads me to believe Amtrak is tweaking the menu but not changing the overall pilot program.
Click to expand...

Good eye. I had meant to check for that, buuuuut I’m lazy.




Well hopefully the changes aren’t worse.


----------



## jis

Considering that if the pilot program merely uses the food items served on the LSL or Cardinal now, I would be a perfectly happy camper, any change in the menu in that direction would be a welcome change. I am not much of a salad person, and I will just have to convert to my Silver Star mode of operation iff they stick with the previously seen menu. Too bad it won't be with the lowered Sleeper fare.


----------



## Palmetto

ParanoidAndroid said:


> It will be a sad day when the only long distance public transport in this country is a cramped, probably low-quality bus, or a crowded, cramped airplane with security.
> 
> At least Amtrak coach is roomy, and you can walk around and get food on board.


The Primera Plus buses in Mexico beat anything this country has to offer.


----------



## Tony in Ann Arbor

I have no problem with the dining car personnel on the Cardinal but we have stopped riding it because of the menu selections, quality of the food, and poor planning and stocking practices. I don't care for for the proposed choices (at least the menu we have seen) for the Capitol and Lake Shore, but emulating the Cardinal's menu is only a minor improvement on those choices.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I am sure I am the only person on here who really likes the Cardinal menu, but I do. If it's the same as when I rode it last year, I had the penne pasta with meatballs for lunch and the Chinese noodles in cashew sauce for dinner, and they were both good. And the omelet for breakfast was just the same as the omelet on any other LD train. If those choices were on the Cap or Lake Shore, I would consider it a step up from the cold stuff they are planning.

I also had the Railroad French toast when I did a short trip in a roomette from TRE to ALX (same cost as business class on the Regional, so took advantage of that before someone in charge figures that out). But, to be fair, that was more like dessert (I had an egg sandwich in the station before the train arrived).

Of course, as many of you know, I cook just about everything in the microwave, so it kind of felt like being at home



.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Mystic River Dragon said:


> 7 And the omelet for breakfast was just the same as the omelet on any other LD train.


I find that most discouraging and if that is the case, no wonder why they think this is a good idea.


----------



## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7 And the omelet for breakfast was just the same as the omelet on any other LD train.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that most discouraging and if that is the case, no wonder why they think this is a good idea.
Click to expand...

I disagree with Mystic River Dragon regarding the Cardinal food. There is pretty much nothing on the menu that I am able to eat due to food allergies, but I am able to eat “regular” diner food and even LSL food.


----------



## JayPea

The food I've had on the Cardinal wasn't that bad, breakfast excluded. The omelette I had was nothing like those on the other trains. This one was cold and rubbery. Worst meal I've had on Amtrak. Lunch was actually pretty good (Some sort of Italian sandwich.) Dinner was tilapia. Not too bad. Even taking into consideration the limitations of the one-person-does-it-all system on the Cardinal, however, the service was atrocious. People who were seated after us got their meals and left before we ever got served.


----------



## tommylicious

Who is/are the first victim(s) of the new "Fresh Choices" from our Board?


----------



## PVD

I'm booked on the Lake out of Buffalo to Chicago. Train is scheduled a little after midnight, so technically it is June 3rd, but it is the June 2nd departure, so I guess that's day 2. Not sure it will be a fair test, I'll be coming from a Friday/Sat hockey meeting where I will be over fed multiple times, and am staying at an Embassy Suites so I'll be omletted out anyway.I might be better off with a meager selection. My return home from Colorado a week later will include a trip on the CL, Chicago to Washington, so I should see what dinner looks like also.


----------



## tommylicious

Looking forward to your reports PVD. Godspeed to you.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Tommy, are you a railfan? Do you also avoid all day steam excursions that serve box meals?

I've been on countless steam excursions that serve box meals including

The Union Pacific Frontier Days Special, one of the classiest and expensive steam excursions in the country, serves 2 meals on board the train, the same number the lake shore limited serves. Breakfast and Dinner. They are both box meals. avoiding that train because of boxed meals would be incredibly foolish!


----------



## Steve4031

Implementation of this may result in a canabalism case worse than Donner pass.

Note to self: if I see Hannibal Lector in the metropolitan lounge I might need to cancel and travel another day.


----------



## jis

Then again it may all be a cyclone in a tea cup


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Either way I'll be sure to pack some fava beans and a nice Chianti.


----------



## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> Either way I'll be sure to pack some fava beans and a nice Chianti.


One of the greatest lines of all time. http://mentalfloss.com/uk/movies/27139/the-hidden-meaning-of-the-silence-of-the-lambs-iconic-line


----------



## tommylicious

A day trip-- no problem. Overnight-- unacceptable fail.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Tommy, are you a railfan? Do you also avoid all day steam excursions that serve box meals?
> 
> I've been on countless steam excursions that serve box meals including
> The Union Pacific Frontier Days Special, one of the classiest and expensive steam excursions in the country, serves 2 meals on board the train, the same number the lake shore limited serves. Breakfast and Dinner. They are both box meals. avoiding that train because of boxed meals would be incredibly foolish!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Why does overnight make the difference and not the number of meals served?


----------



## tommylicious

A vintage train-- sure. Other elements of the experience are offsets. Amtrak ain't got no offsets but for a proper meal on rails in a dining car. With that gone, all that's left is incredibly high cost along with terrible overall performance/comportment.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Why does overnight make the difference and not the number of meals served?


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why does overnight make the difference and not the number of meals served?


Because you're stuck on the train for longer. The LSL really should serve three meals, and the closure of the dining car and lounge car at Albany has been a continuing subject of criticism on AU. I don't know how long that excursion is, but I bet it's not 20 hours.


----------



## Anderson

I think both play a role. The food equation isn't "just" the length of trip, it also depends on the circumstances, the meals covered, whether meat is an option, whether there is a hot meal involved, viable travel alternatives, and so on...

Heck, if they offered a solid lox and chive cheese bagel one morning that would go a long way in my book. it is the sum total of a cold dinner and a worthless breakfast that is at issue, with the added frustration of overnight travel meaning that I can't backstop a bad dinner with a trip to a bar/restaurant...I am stuck with whatever is on offer.


----------



## jebr

tommylicious said:


> A vintage train-- sure. Other elements of the experience are offsets. Amtrak ain't got no offsets but for a proper meal on rails in a dining car. With that gone, all that's left is incredibly high cost along with terrible overall performance/comportment.
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does overnight make the difference and not the number of meals served?
Click to expand...

Amtrak also has the offset that you can use it for a transportation need. I'm actually pretty sure that's the most important aspect of Amtrak.


----------



## PVD

I'll let everyone know what I experience.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I wish you could mix and match a few items like sides and desserts. Since everything is prepackaged it doesn't seem like that would be too much to ask for really.
> 
> It also seems odd that the warning about all foods may contain wheat, fish, etc. Is on the menu. If these are fully pre-packaged meals, there should be a certified gluten free meal abailable.


I agree. "Hey, why can't I have the vegan dessert instead of the cheesecake. I hate cheesecake!" "I don't like the dressing on the salad. do you have any other choices?" "Cold beef? Yuck! Can you heat it up or me"?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I noticed that Amtrak has not released any new menus since 09/17. Is it possible that they're delayed due to these "fresh" new choices? Or is Amtrak going to stick with the same menu it's had for the last 9 months?


----------



## Blackwolf

D.P. Roberts said:


> I noticed that Amtrak has not released any new menus since 09/17. Is it possible that they're delayed due to these "fresh" new choices? Or is Amtrak going to stick with the same menu it's had for the last 9 months?


I'd be willing to bet that "all bets are off" when it comes to menus for the time being.

And I seriously doubt that Amtrak will be releasing any menus to the public from this point forward until they're implemented. Releasing the new food options before implementation for the LSL/CL pretty much blew up in their face as far as the program managers are concerned.


----------



## Lonestar648

with the uproar on the LSL and CL changes, I would expect Amtrak to consider just making the change(s) on other train public hours before implementation.


----------



## jis

Read the RPA Hotline posted on a couple of other threads to get the rundown on what is happening with food service. No deep secret or conspiracy as far as I can tell. But good to keep abreast and call out things that we’d like to see preserved. Big changes are coming.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Read the RPA Hotline posted on a couple of other threads to get the rundown on what is happening with food service. No deep secret or conspiracy as far as I can tell. But good to keep abreast and call out things that we’d like to see preserved. Big changes are coming.


Good changes?


----------



## KmH

In the RPA Hotline article it was also said food _supplier_ contracts were targeted for re-negotiation and that Mr. Anderson was willing to have Amtrak spend more, not less, money on food service


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KmH said:


> In the RPA Hotline article it was also said food _supplier_ contracts were targeted for re-negotiation and that Mr. Anderson was willing to have Amtrak spend more, not less, money on food service


I think it said (didn't go back an read it) that he's willing to spend more on food - not necessarily on food service.


----------



## CHvision

Edit: Remaining Viewliner II's are being delivered


----------



## Lonestar648

So is Anderson saying he will spend more money on the actual food product (improved quality) as long as he can eliminate most F&B labor.


----------



## TiBike

That's one way to read the article, but it doesn't actually quote Anderson or Gardner. The article doesn't have very many quotes at all: no statements, just a few phrases. It reads like it was written by someone who wasn't in the meeting (although that might also be a deliberate style choice).

The paraphrasing might be reasonably accurate, but I wouldn't go too far down the road of picking apart words and sentences.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> Not true. They are all a part of the Empire Pool of equipment which includes AM1s and AM2s. How NYSDOT decides to assign their pool is totally up to them. They could make a call tomorrow and decide they want AM2s on the Ethan Allen instead of the Adirondack and Amtrak would say "whatever works" and that would be that.
> 
> *Not that this matters. Starting next week, you won;t see AM2s on any of the trains and **a few sets are losing their split clubs.*





jis said:


> So did NYSDOT actually run AM-2s on the Niagara Falls service? I am asking about what is, not what is theoretically possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the interesting tidbit BTW, about what will happen starting next week!



The AM-2s are gone and here is the relevant portion from an advisory regarding the split clubs:



> Business Class Service Suspended
> 
> Trains 63, 64, 238, 245 and 261 will not offer Business Class service from May 26 through September 3. Business Class will resume on Train 64, September 5


----------



## jis

So at least LSL still retains Business Class?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> I definitely am not a fan of what they're doing with the coach passengers when it comes to the lounge. Once this sleeper lounge is added to the train, the diner lite/lounge will be removed from the train. The coach passengers will have to join the business class passengers in the split/club lounge. That's not a lot of room. I was hoping the diner lite/cafe car would remain.


Yes the LSL is keeping Business Class it seems.


----------



## neroden

jebr said:


> The diner service as it's been set up is quite labor intensive, and I don't really see wait-staff service as desirable enough to want to pay extra for it. I really don't think R. Anderson finds that aspect of the service as worthy of federal subsidy, especially since the law is still on the books that F&B has to "break even" by 2020 (I think.) If it's workable, I could see myself willing to pay extra (or finding the extra cost justifiable) for a chef on board if the service attendant for that car could handle the ordering process from a counter, calling order names/numbers, and either the chef or the service attendant prepping side items. Other than that, my main feedback is that there needs to be hot options (which I hope are added quickly; hopefully as soon as the staff are comfortable with the new process of meal service) and more options for breakfast (seriously, hard boiled eggs should be added to the current tray, perhaps being subbed in for one of the breakfast bars, and a hot breakfast sandwich with side option added as well.)


Add hard boiled eggs and I'd be set. As it is, I'm trying to carry hard boiled eggs in my own cooler, which is problematic since they won't stay cold for two days so I have to rush out and buy them in Chicago whenever I head east. Ugh.

My fiancee can't eat dairy. Most bread has milk in it. Unless there are clear ingredients lists on all the breads and one of them has no milk, that means the "Fresh Choices" is more like "No Choices" for her, for breakfast.

I can't currently eat significant amounts of sugar (meaning, the yogurt is out) or starch (meaning, the bread is out), so again the "Fresh Choices" means "No Choices" for me.

Hard-boiled eggs would solve the problem for both of us.


----------



## neroden

bratkinson said:


> In following this thread on and off, and in particular, the last few days, got me wondering...What is Andersons' plan with this cold-meals for sleeper passengers?
> 
> While it seems to be obvious that he's looking to get rid of all the LD trains, starting with the 'most costly' routes (SWC more expensive per passenger than the Cardinal or Sunset? That's a new one on me!) by eliminating agents and hot food, perhaps he has a more 'not so obvious' plan. It just hit me in the past 5 minutes or so that he really wants to show the significant drop in ridership on the LSL and CL as a result of the food service cuts.
> 
> Maybe 4-5 months from now he'll tell congress that what would normally be sold-out-all-summer trains are now running at 60% or so, because of the food cuts that congress requires Amtrak to implement in the next year or so. Perhaps he's just as upset about cutting costs deeper than the bone as we are.
> 
> But then, 60% plus/minus occupied seat (and/or bed) miles would be a good justification to cut the train altogether. And after the LSL & CL are gone, take on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent, etc, until they're all gone. Throw in his 'no PTC, no Amtrak trains' routine, he will have a 'double-whammy' means of shedding the LD routes... One can only wait and see and contact our representatives in Washington.


Yeah, given that we have proof that Anderson has Amtrak publishing flat-out lies in order to falsely claim that certain LD trains cost more money than they actually do, I would tend to believe that the ridership-diminishing actions he's taking are a deliberate "Penn Central" attempt to destroy ridership on the most profitable of the long-distance trains. I don't know whether it's coming from him personally or from some Svengali whispering in his ear -- he's sufficiently ignorant about railroading that it could be someone else misleading him -- but it probably doesn't matter much. A full-court press to fight anything stupid Anderson does is necessary.

That said, I do think he's serious about the safety thing. I have just as much contempt as he does for the freight railroads' attitude of "so we smash up a train every year, whatever".

If he wasn't lying, I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the lies are a sign that his actions are malicious.


----------



## neroden

bratkinson said:


> However, I suspect that it's not just the food driving passengers away. I suspect that a significant number of already booked New York section passengers told Amtrak to refund their money when advised they would be on their own to get to/from Grand Central Terminal AND they'd have to ride in NEC spaced COACH seating to Albany (about 14" LESS legroom than Amfleet 2 LD coach seating). Maybe, just maybe, Amtrak has added extra business class cars to the Empire Service trains? I have my doubts they figured that one out, though. And what about the passengers riding Amtrak from south of NYC that now have to get to GCT to ride coach? If I were coming from PHL, WAS, even MIA ticketed to the LSL, I'd tell Amtrak to cancel the entire trip!


Oh, it's worse than that. Passengers booked in sleeper from Chicago to New York were not rebooked in sleeper from Chicago to Albany and coach from Albany to NY -- they were rebooked in coach all the way from Chicago to New York. With less than an hour's notice. Witnessed this last week. Sleepers weren't full. Deliberate maliciousness.


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> My iMac has 39 open tabs at the moment.
> 
> Two of them featured the now-removed versions of the menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what it looked like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2018-05-20 at 7.00.00 AM.png


The lack of full ingredients lists is still an ADA violation -- though if we're lucky the packages might have them -- but the bigger problem is the lack of breakfast options. The salads are OK for lunch and dinner, but the breakfast situation on that menu is flatly unacceptable, since it's inedible for a large number of customers. Seriously, Amtrak has better selections than this menu *on its own system* in the Downeaster cafe. Inability to look across the street at the train departing from North Station speaks to either gross incompetence or maliciousness.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> bratkinson said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, I suspect that it's not just the food driving passengers away. I suspect that a significant number of already booked New York section passengers told Amtrak to refund their money when advised they would be on their own to get to/from Grand Central Terminal AND they'd have to ride in NEC spaced COACH seating to Albany (about 14" LESS legroom than Amfleet 2 LD coach seating). Maybe, just maybe, Amtrak has added extra business class cars to the Empire Service trains? I have my doubts they figured that one out, though. And what about the passengers riding Amtrak from south of NYC that now have to get to GCT to ride coach? If I were coming from PHL, WAS, even MIA ticketed to the LSL, I'd tell Amtrak to cancel the entire trip!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it's worse than that. Passengers booked in sleeper from Chicago to New York were not rebooked in sleeper from Chicago to Albany and coach from Albany to NY -- they were rebooked in coach all the way from Chicago to New York. With less than an hour's notice. Witnessed this last week. Sleepers weren't full. Deliberate maliciousness.
Click to expand...

Seriously? Why the hell would they do that? Who in their right mind would even think of rebooking passengers that way?


----------



## chrsjrcj

I think it has been made pretty clear that Amtrak cares less and less about the customer experience on the LD trains.


----------



## PVD

The ADA as written does not address the issues stemming from the fact that certain ingredients are concealed in food and it does not address the issue stemming from the prevalence of cross-contamination.

They have recognized that food allergies can constitute a disability, in some instances this can require accommodation, there are FDA requirements to list major food allergens and contamination possibilities, but that is not a solution for all situations, since lots of people have less common allergies.

I'd be interested in any new or different information, I stand on my previously stated opinion that it shouldn't require a law (even though it often does) to do what is reasonable.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> I think it has been made pretty clear that Amtrak cares less and less about the customer experience on the LD trains.


There's a difference between caring less and less about customer experience, and doing inherently moronic things like rebooking sleeper passengers in coach the whole way, for no reason whatsoever. Why on earth would they stick sleeper passengers in coach the whole way? Why? And I imagine those people didn't get a refund either. This is just overwhelmingly infuriating.


----------



## jis

It appears more and more like in order to rid Amtrak of its past "sins", so much institutional memory has been let go that often the new inexperienced decision makers now seem to have little idea about even what points are connected by a train about which they are making decisions. This is clearly a failure of management with an unmanaged over-enthusiasm for change. That is a core fault of Anderson in setting the tone of his organization. Maybe they will recover from it, at least one hopes so, or maybe they won't, and crash and burn as a result. There have been a few too many completely off the wall statements made by the new operations guy to suggest that he has no clue about the operations he is supposed to manage, I am afraid.


----------



## Lonestar648

At an airline like Delta, with point to point hub and spoke scheduling, everything is cold and calculating. With Amtrak each route has a name and a personality. Many have a FB page with a long list of followers. For Anderson, this is the opposite from Delta, where deleting or changing a route met little or not resistance. Anderson was probably not prepared for the major resistance when he announced the Dining Car changes and later the SWC changes. We may find him backtracking some in order to regroup and rethink his plans for Amtrak.


----------



## OBS

Lonestar648 said:


> At an airline like Delta, with point to point hub and spoke scheduling, everything is cold and calculating. With Amtrak each route has a name and a personality. Many have a FB page with a long list of followers. For Anderson, this is the opposite from Delta, where deleting or changing a route met little or not resistance. Anderson was probably not prepared for the major resistance when he announced the Dining Car changes and later the SWC changes. We may find him backtracking some in order to regroup and rethink his plans for Amtrak.


We hope!


----------



## PVD

Major corporations have more influence over politicians and will move them in a direction that supports their businesses. Amtrak is way more likely to be forced to make a politically motivated choice regardless of whether it is the best option available.


----------



## cpotisch

The menus are still down. Looks like we might have to wait until PVD rides the Lake Shore to find out what they're actually serving.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Im willing to believe that the actual menus will be the same as the ones that were taken down. Why were they taken down? Maybe the VP of customer service got tired of the hate mail?


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> Im willing to believe that the actual menus will be the same as the ones that were taken down. Why were they taken down? Maybe the VP of customer service got tired of the hate mail?


I highly doubt that they would have taken it down because the made up creature known as the "VP of customer experience" got tired of the letters. The way I see it, there was probably just some slight correction needed, regarding the ingredients or something. However, the menus have been down for a while now, so if it were just a typo I would think they could have gotten it fixed at this point.


----------



## MikefromCrete

The posted menus were examples of what Amtrak would be offering. It's possible that what will actually be offered will be different. So the example menus were taken down. It's possible that Amtrak will be experimenting with different items to see what people like and what people hate. Of course as most people think the whole idea is stupid, so maybe Amtrak is hiding the actual product. We'll see on June 1.


----------



## Thirdrail7

MikefromCrete said:


> The posted menus were examples of what Amtrak would be offering. It's possible that what will actually be offered will be different. So the example menus were taken down. It's possible that Amtrak will be experimenting with different items to see what people like and what people hate. Of course as most people think the whole idea is stupid, so maybe Amtrak is hiding the actual product. We'll see on June 1.


I will break ranks and say that was an official menu. It has been removed internally as well.

Perhaps it will change. After all, it has been said that this is an experiment. Perhaps the offerings will change....I hope.


----------



## PVD

I should see breakfast on 6-3, I'm going from Buffalo to Chicago.


----------



## TinCan782

chrsjrcj said:


> Im willing to believe that the actual menus will be the same as the ones that were taken down. Why were they taken down? Maybe the VP of customer service got tired of the hate mail?


Yep, I sent my email to him!


----------



## Anderson

I think management has taken quite the hint from this. One thing to bear in mind is that Anderson is from a background where a significant shuffle in service, with few exceptions, doesn't trigger outright rebellion from the customer base...but then again, very few of Delta's flights are on trips that involve 10+ hours onboard.


----------



## VentureForth

Why didn't they just try this "experiment" with EITHER the LSL -or- the CL? Why hit ALL East Coast to Chicago routes with this nonsense?

Maybe it's to increase ridership on the Cardinal!


----------



## cpotisch

VentureForth said:


> Why didn't they just try this "experiment" with EITHER the LSL -or- the CL? Why hit ALL East Coast to Chicago routes with this nonsense?
> 
> Maybe it's to increase ridership on the Cardinal!


Because this wasn't an "experiment" - it's a permanent change to cut costs on a couple short routes, so as to meet the F&B mandate. The removal of the diner on the Star was originally an experiment (though I think we all knew how it was going to end), and since it was such a drastic change, they only did it on one route. "Contemporary dining" is different. It's a whole new way of offering food service to one night trains that seem not to need a full service diner. If it was just to a test to see if something like it could be executed in the future, then they could have made it a temporary change with a set end date on only one of the trains.


----------



## jis

I get the impression that the only "experiment" part of this is what the menu is going to be, not the delivery method. Maybe Thirdrail has heard something more definitive to validate or refute this impression.


----------



## TiBike

One reason to pick these two routes is that they more or less fit the service model praised by Anderson in Chicago last year: business traveler gets on a train in the evening, arrives fresh and rested in the morning, having traveled between two major business destinations. There's room to debate how closely the LSL and CL fit that model, but that doesn't mean they can't be brought closer to it.

The new meal plan, at least as described, is a better fit with business travellers, who tend to be younger than the typical land cruiser. The food is healthier, easier and more convenient to get, the product is more consistent and predictable and, I expect, so will be the service level. Being able to eat when and where you want is a benefit to a business traveller who has better things to do with his or her time than be herded about by indifferent Amtrak employees.

There's a core belief on this site that the new menu and service plan is a downgrade. It might turn out to be that for some. But don't assume that applies to everyone. There will also be people who consider it to be an upgrade, and I'll wager that those people look a lot like the target market Anderson is aiming at.


----------



## Lonestar648

I think this change stays. It will be how and what in refining of this new Dining concept. Since these trains only served two meals each way they were easy targets. Other long distance trains, especially those with two nights, eliminating the DC staff would be very difficult.

The SM and the Crescent are the only eastern LD untouched. (LSL and CL contemporary, SS no DC everyone pays, Cardinal no DC Cafe seating, CONO no chef).


----------



## MikeM

They probably took the menus down temporally since they're waiting to see what sandwiches they can pick up at 7-11 before train time...


----------



## Palmetto

Are they fresh and contemporary?


----------



## cpotisch

Palmetto said:


> Are they fresh and contemporary?


If they’re cheap and mediocre they must be.


----------



## PVD

Leaving Syracuse. Just received Amtrak e-mail with advisory (warning) that my upcoming trips on the LSL and CL will include "Contemporary Dining" with a link to the April 18th announcement. Still no specifics. I shall soon see.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Leaving Syracuse. Just received Amtrak e-mail with advisory (warning) that my upcoming trips on the LSL and CL will include "Contemporary Dining" with a link to the April 18th announcement. Still no specifics. I shall soon see.


Just received an e-mail? Like today? How hard is it to send this stuff to passengers in a timely manner? Why couldn't they have sent passengers this stuff on April 18th?

Whatever be the case, at 1:20 PM tomorrow, the first "fresh choices" train will leave the station, so fingers crossed.


----------



## PVD

The public announcement was made and put online, but at that point I didn't have my reservations, really can't fault them on that point. I do agree that it might have been nice to send the reminder a bit sooner, although there is an advisory given when booking. The lack of real information is more annoying. No menus. We all know tomorrow's food is already being staged.


----------



## OBS

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving Syracuse. Just received Amtrak e-mail with advisory (warning) that my upcoming trips on the LSL and CL will include "Contemporary Dining" with a link to the April 18th announcement. Still no specifics. I shall soon see.
> 
> 
> 
> Just received an e-mail? Like today? How hard is it to send this stuff to passengers in a timely manner? Why couldn't they have sent passengers this stuff on April 18th?
> 
> Whatever be the case, at 1:20 PM tomorrow, the first "fresh choices" train will leave the station, so fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

Maybe their strategy is to wait til last minute to keep people from cancelling.......


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving Syracuse. Just received Amtrak e-mail with advisory (warning) that my upcoming trips on the LSL and CL will include "Contemporary Dining" with a link to the April 18th announcement. Still no specifics. I shall soon see.
> 
> 
> 
> Just received an e-mail? Like today? How hard is it to send this stuff to passengers in a timely manner? Why couldn't they have sent passengers this stuff on April 18th?
> 
> Whatever be the case, at 1:20 PM tomorrow, the first "fresh choices" train will leave the station, so fingers crossed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe their strategy is to wait til last minute to keep people from cancelling.......
Click to expand...

If that is their strategy, I think it's a pretty dumb one. Keeping people out of the loop rarely makes them feel better, since they tend to just get that much more anxious. I someone is booked for a 20 hour trip, and knows nothing other than that they'll be served some limit selection of cold food, they have pretty much no idea "what they're up against", and how to prepare for the trip. With the menu online, at least people know what to expect and if they can cope with it. If they have nothing to go on, and the person might have to put up with a much worse selection than will actually be offered, it's that much more likely that they cancel.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Tibike,

I have a great deal of respect for your posts. However, I can not agree with you on this one. Please think about it:



TiBike said:


> One reason to pick these two routes is that they more or less fit the service model praised by Anderson in Chicago last year: business traveler gets on a train in the evening, arrives fresh and rested in the morning, having traveled between two major business destinations. There's room to debate how closely the LSL and CL fit that model, but that doesn't mean they can't be brought closer to it.


Do you honestly think think that someone that has pretty much slashed amenities and services on the LD front really is trying to bring "business travelers" to trains with substandard performances? It couldn't be more obvious as to why these trains were selected: They serve very few meals.



TiBike said:


> The new meal plan, at least as described, is a better fit with business travellers, who tend to be younger than the typical land cruiser. The food is healthier, easier and more convenient to get, the product is more consistent and predictable and, I expect, so will be the service level. Being able to eat when and where you want is a benefit to a business traveller who has better things to do with his or her time than be herded about by indifferent Amtrak employees.


Once again, this is something that could have been handled without using yogurt as a main course. You could always ask for the food to be delivered to your room. Just as you can now. Additionally, I'm still trying to picture this " younger business traveler" boarding trains that are notoriously late. Do you really think someone is going to look and say:

Hmmmm....I have a meeting Do I take 16 hour train ride, that might turn out to be 20 hours by the time I get to Michigan or a 6 hour plane ride where I get aggressively frisked?

The plane is cheaper....but wait.....the Amtrak has a Chilled Steak Salad and I can wake up to a yogurt!!!

SOLD!!!!



TiBike said:


> There's a core belief on this site that the new menu and service plan is a downgrade. It might turn out to be that for some. But don't assume that applies to everyone. There will also be people who consider it to be an upgrade, and I'll wager that those people look a lot like the target market Anderson is aiming at.


While some may consider the menu a change for the better, you can not seriously think of this as an upgrade. Fresh and Contemporary "Meals" of this nature could have been made available in the cafe car. It already carries yogurts, sandwiches and wraps and they used to carry a salads...and that is my problem. If you want to get rid of the service, then get rid of the service. Follow the example that was set by the Star. Admit you're eliminating a feature to save money and lower the prices accordingly!!

However, to mask cafe car offerings in buzzwords and foist it upon your high paying passengers as if they don't know the difference is insulting and is a load of hooey. You are charging the same fare and maybe more for food that was could easily be available in the cafe car.

If you've fallen for it, you're either the kind of passenger that Amtrak wants (we're as late as ever, we've raised the prices, slashed amenities, eliminated discounts, imposed refund fees on things we overcharged them on and got caught and they STILL keep riding..in record numbers, so why not give them yogurt and a Kind Bar, ) or you work for Amtrak marketing.

If it is the latter, perhaps you can pitch "closing stations encourages self-sufficiency and reduces our carbon footprint " or "reducing staff means you'll travel lighter...which is perfect for "business traveler" that like to arrive in a major city 5 hours late!"


----------



## me_little_me

MikeM said:


> They probably took the menus down temporally since they're waiting to see what sandwiches they can pick up at 7-11 before train time...


They have to train the crew to throw it at you. That should take 2 minutes. Wait until some attendant decides that unlimited soft drinks means two per person or you find that there is only one choice because they only loaded two of any of the others.

Going to Denver in July. First airline trip in years and first class was cheaper than a sleeper. It's United so we'll probably be beaten up but in first class, they use white gloves to do it.

Have to get used to a new travel experience. Clean restrooms. Unsurly crew. No waiting on freights.Ugh! Whatwill I do?


----------



## MikefromCrete

me_little_me said:


> MikeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> They probably took the menus down temporally since they're waiting to see what sandwiches they can pick up at 7-11 before train time...
> 
> 
> 
> They have to train the crew to throw it at you. That should take 2 minutes. Wait until some attendant decides that unlimited soft drinks means two per person or you find that there is only one choice because they only loaded two of any of the others.
> 
> Going to Denver in July. First airline trip in years and first class was cheaper than a sleeper. It's United so we'll probably be beaten up but in first class, they use white gloves to do it.
> 
> Have to get used to a new travel experience. Clean restrooms. Unsurly crew. No waiting on freights.Ugh! Whatwill I do?
Click to expand...

Don't be expecting any unsurly crew. Some of those flight attendants can be just as bad anything you might run into on Amtrak. Clean restrooms aren't a given either. But no freights.


----------



## iplaybass

D minus one. The notification of "Contemporary Dining Options" is gone from my reservation. No menu, no clues. Don't tell the passengers anything so they can make alternate arrangements. It's a long way to DC on just yogurt, bread, and a couple of breakfast bars. Especially if the CL is late.


----------



## jis

iplaybass said:


> D minus one. The notification of "Contemporary Dining Options" is gone from my reservation. No menu, no clues. Don't tell the passengers anything so they can make alternate arrangements. It's a long way to DC on just yogurt, bread, and a couple of breakfast bars. Especially if the CL is late.


There is always the Cafe Car [emoji12]


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Let's see if we can get this to a thousand posts before #449 leaves Boston tomorrow.


----------



## Lonestar648

United, we always called them the "Unfriendly Sky's". I remember a flight from Chicago to San Diego when about 15 of us flew together. The Drill Sargent told us Restrooms were "Off Limits" until after the plane was at cruise altitude and the pilot signaled with the seat belt light. Electronic would be confiscated if used prior to the approved time. She actually took several phones and a couple laptops during the flight when the seat belt light came on, telling the passengers they could have them back after everyone had gotten off the plane. I have had more friendly Attendants on Delta than other airlines. Also learned that AA executives only fly first class when we got booted from our upgraded seats back to the only remaining seats.

Enjoy your flight. Hope it is a good one.


----------



## TiBike

If you say the primary reason for selecting these trains is that they serve very few meals anyway, then I accept that – I'm just speculating. I'm not saying that the new meal service is sufficient to attract business people. A better way to put it is that it won't repel them. _As described_, it's very similar to the "grab and go" food that's common in airports, both in terms of the menu and the way it's to be presented.

What will repel business travellers is inconsistent service and poorly prepared and presented food, offered in an unfamiliar environment that doesn't allow them to maximise their most valuable resource: time. It's true that there are "take out" options in a traditional diner, but it requires time and effort to figure that out.

I will admit to some bias. I had fruit and yogurt for breakfast and a chicken salad for dinner the past three days. My diet may seem boring to some, but I don't think it's unusual. It's certainly consistent with what you'd find in a Silicon Valley company cafeteria, where the food is free (or nearly so) and intended as a recruitment and retention tool.

I wasn't commenting on Amtrak's marketing skills or its prose. I also don't pay much attention to it. Nor do I think the vast majority of Amtrak passengers will give it much thought, if they see it in the first place. Yes, it's insulting, and the whole episode could have been handled much better. But unless you have an atypical interest in what Amtrak does – i.e. work for Amtrak and/or hang out on this board – the marketing elements are just background noise. That's not an excuse for poor workmanship, though – that offends me.

You are completely right to put food service, and my speculation regarding it, into proper perspective. To attract 21st century travellers (as opposed to 19th and 20th century travellers who seem to have wandered into this one  Amtrak needs to offer "safe, on time, clean cars, friendly service and great customer-facing technology". I gotta give credit where credit is due: whether or not he had help writing it, Anderson succinctly and precisely described what Amtrak's priorities must be, in the correct order.

So yes, at a minimum, the trains have to be safe and on time. Without that, none of this matters. Unsafe or late trains are unacceptable to business travellers, and should be to anyone else. Those are binary criteria. Clean and friendly are more subjective criteria, but I will venture to say that there is a direct relationship between a passenger's love of rail travel and his or her's tolerance for dirty trains and indifferent service. The standard must be raised significantly if Amtrak hopes to change passenger counts and demographics.

Passengers don't notice "great customer facing technology" unless it's not there – consumer-facing businesses, particularly service business, have been radically changed by digital technology, in all its forms, over the past 25 years. Old tech is perceived as inferior tech, and "no tech" is just bizarre.

Another thing that's changed over the past 25 years is consumers' relationship to brands. Increasingly, brands are used to define, and not simply express, a person's self identity. People will adopt brands that reinforce their self image, and avoid brands that clash with it. Self image is not the same as personal tastes. Even if people eat boiled potatoes, charred steaks and deep fried ice cream for three meals a day, they may think of themselves as the sort that lives a healthy, low environmental impact lifestyle. Being seen among the salads reinforces that self image.

(So do bike racks, by the way. If you ever get out this way, take a look at the Google, Facebook et al employee buses – they all have bike racks on the back, but are virtually never used. You also see free Google bikes all over the campus, but few people riding them. But everyone feels good about it).

For what it's worth, I do think that if Amtrak cuts amenities, raises prices and still sees increasing passenger numbers, it's doing something right. But food is a side issue. If Amtrak wants to attract more and better paying customers, it first needs to run safe, on time trains. Without that, nothing else matters.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Tibike,
> 
> I have a great deal of respect for your posts. However, I can not agree with you on this one. Please think about it:
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> One reason to pick these two routes is that they more or less fit the service model praised by Anderson in Chicago last year: business traveler gets on a train in the evening, arrives fresh and rested in the morning, having traveled between two major business destinations. There's room to debate how closely the LSL and CL fit that model, but that doesn't mean they can't be brought closer to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you honestly think think that someone that has pretty much slashed amenities and services on the LD front really is trying to bring "business travelers" to trains with substandard performances? It couldn't be more obvious as to why these trains were selected: They serve very few meals.
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The new meal plan, at least as described, is a better fit with business travellers, who tend to be younger than the typical land cruiser. The food is healthier, easier and more convenient to get, the product is more consistent and predictable and, I expect, so will be the service level. Being able to eat when and where you want is a benefit to a business traveller who has better things to do with his or her time than be herded about by indifferent Amtrak employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, this is something that could have been handled without using yogurt as a main course. You could always ask for the food to be delivered to your room. Just as you can now. Additionally, I'm still trying to picture this " younger business traveler" boarding trains that are notoriously late. Do you really think someone is going to look and say:
> 
> Hmmmm....I have a meeting Do I take 16 hour train ride, that might turn out to be 20 hours by the time I get to Michigan or a 6 hour plane ride where I get aggressively frisked?
> 
> The plane is cheaper....but wait.....the Amtrak and a Chilled Steak Salad and I can wake up to a yogurt!!!
> 
> SOLD!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a core belief on this site that the new menu and service plan is a downgrade. It might turn out to be that for some. But don't assume that applies to everyone. There will also be people who consider it to be an upgrade, and I'll wager that those people look a lot like the target market Anderson is aiming at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While some may consider the menu a change for the better, you can not seriously think of this as an upgrade. "Meals" of this nature could have been made available in the cafe car. It already carries yogurts, sandwiches and wraps and they used to carry a salads...and that is my problem. If you want to get rid of the service, then get rid of the service. Follow the example that was set by the Star.
> 
> However, to mask cafe car offerings in buzzwords and foist it upon your high paying passengers as if they don't know the difference is insulting and is a load of hooey. You are charging the same fare and maybe more for food that was could easily be available in the cafe car.
> 
> If you've fallen for it, you're either the kind of passenger that Amtrak wants (we've raised the prices, slashed amenities, eliminated discounts, imposed refund fees on things we overcharged them on and got caught and they STILL keep riding..in record numbers, so why not give them yogurt and a Kind Bar, we're as late as ever) or you work for Amtrak marketing.
> 
> If it is the latter, perhaps you can pitch "closing stations encourages self-sufficiency and reduces our carbon footprint " or "reducing staff means you'll travel lighter...which is perfect for "business traveler" that like to arrive in a major city 5 hours late!"
Click to expand...


----------



## RPC

Thirdrail7 said:


> Hmmmm....I have a meeting Do I take 16 hour train ride, that might turn out to be 20 hours by the time I get to Michigan or a 6 hour plane ride where I get aggressively frisked?


Keep in mind that this putative business traveler probably has PreChek, so the aggressive frisking is generally not an issue.

(One of my standard techniques when flying over a meal time is to purchase a meal to go at an airport restaurant (most major(ish) airports have a decent selection), carry it on board, and eat it with my complimentary beverage. I think I'd find this preferable to any of the options Amtrak described. Unfortunately, except for the eastbound CL, this technique would result in my eating cold food, as there are several hours between boarding and mealtime.)


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> I will admit to some bias. I had fruit and yogurt for breakfast and a chicken salad for dinner the past three days. My diet may seem boring to some, but I don't think it's unusual. It's certainly consistent with what you'd find in a Silicon Valley company cafeteria, where the food is free (or nearly so) and intended as a recruitment and retention tool.


You'd be surprised at some of the offerings in Silicon Valley cafeterias and lunch rooms. Google offers absolutely amazing food in their cafeterias (my dad can attest to that ever since he had lunch with a friend there). Good, complimentary meals for workers boosts morale and productivity. It's good for the workers and for the companies. So I can guarantee that "contemporary dining" is not going to be a big step up from what big tech companies offer their employees.


----------



## TiBike

It's not a step up, by any means. But it wouldn't look out of place in the Google cafeteria. Typical Amtrak diner food would, though, both in terms of raw materials and quality of preparation and presentation.


----------



## iplaybass

Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.


----------



## spinnaker

iplaybass said:


> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.


My second one. It would be nice to see a photo of the choices.

But I still love the spin on this. Like we are getting a bonus or something.


----------



## PVD

Good food service does improve morale and retention. More common than complimentary is a subsidized food service, the tax consequences of complimentary can get dicey. Many large companies in Manhattan have employee food services where the quality is good and the prices reasonable. Aramark, the Amtrak commissary operator is a major player in corporate food services. I also had some bond trader and investment banking clients that actually employed private chefs to keep there big producers in the building as much as possible - long lunches = lost revenue. I used to schedule customer meetings at those sites for late morning so they would end around lunch time (so as long as your here, why don't you join us for lunch...)


----------



## pennyk

iplaybass said:


> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.


I just received probably the same email. Although I have several trips in June, I will not be traveling on the Capitol Limited until July.


----------



## Lonestar648

When I traveled Amtrak LD almost weekly for business, I trusted Amtrak to be safe, but OTP was very important. I generally worked on my laptop most of each trip, except making phone calls at longer stops where coverage was good. (note: I started riding Amtrak for business in the 80's, then when projects were mostly NE based for many years, I traveled 80% by Amtrak) The amenities were attractive and helped justify taking the train. My sales guys were too hyper to sir on a train, they needed to be in front of customers, so no amenities would not have attracted them. Having a bedroom where several of us could work, eating together, shower and be ready was big for my team. We became very efficient in time management because we valued the little time we had a home with our families. Safety, OTP, Clean, mechanics working, amenities, good food were some of the criteria that attracted us. On the other side, no security lines, no lost time flying when couldn't work, no grab and go hot dogs or pizzas, no bag issues, no middle seats, etc.


----------



## iplaybass

pennyk said:


> iplaybass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.
> 
> 
> 
> I just received probably the same email. Although I have several trips in June, I will not be traveling on the Capitol Limited until July.
Click to expand...

My trip is in mid-July. Already have a contingency plan in place. Have a long layover, there's a Giordano's in walking distance.


----------



## PRR 60

iplaybass said:


> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.


Menu is back up on the website. Same as was previously posted.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Now listed as "Lake Shore Limited/Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu" on the individual train's web page. Coach passengers be damned!

ETA: Just noticed the email to the "VP of Customer Service" (if such a position even exists) has been removed.


----------



## greatcats

Just looked at the menu. The breakfast is inadequate. Some of the cold choices for dinner may be appetizing, but still inadequate. The blurb about “ so your journey will have no boundaries “ is a glaring example of a corporate crock.


----------



## TinCan782

The "Charcuterie Plate" has been renamed "Antipasto Plate" ... same description.

I guess the VP of Customer Experience heard enough, LOL!


----------



## Rheavon

Another new menu difference is that they added Corona to the alcohol list.

Whoop-dee-doo.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

$6.50 for a domestic! That's higher than Fluffy can lift her ..... I don't think the airlines are even that high!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

iplaybass said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iplaybass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.
> 
> 
> 
> I just received probably the same email. Although I have several trips in June, I will not be traveling on the Capitol Limited until July.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My trip is in mid-July. Already have a contingency plan in place. Have a long layover, there's a Giordano's in walking distance.
Click to expand...

Spot on! And while other pax graze on their cold suppers, you can terrorize the Lounge with that wonderful aroma of a proper Chicago pizza!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

OlympianHiawatha said:


> $6.50 for a domestic! That's higher than Fluffy can lift her ..... I don't think the airlines are even that high!


Even Southwest is $6 for a can of Miller Lite now. Although you can still buy drink coupons on ebay for less than that.


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> The ADA as written does not address the issues stemming from the fact that certain ingredients are concealed in food and it does not address the issue stemming from the prevalence of cross-contamination.
> 
> They have recognized that food allergies can constitute a disability, in some instances this can require accommodation, there are FDA requirements to list major food allergens and contamination possibilities, but that is not a solution for all situations, since lots of people have less common allergies.
> 
> I'd be interested in any new or different information, I stand on my previously stated opinion that it shouldn't require a law (even though it often does) to do what is reasonable.


I managed to get a citation from a court case (thank you to the fellow who linked it) stating that providing full ingredients lists (as you would find on packages in the supermarket) is a reasonable accomodation in the context of college cafeterias. I am quite sure this would apply to Amtrak as well.


----------



## Maverickstation

No changes on the Amtrak website so far.

One menu update does appear Food Facts for the Southwest Chief, nothing major, the usual seasonal changes, such as French Toast replaces

the pancakes, salmon is replaced with another shrimp dish, and some other changes to the specials.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=E86162CE6C8F993BBCB4C6A79181B941B16D67B72AC5CB50&EV=2

Ken


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> Now listed as "Lake Shore Limited/Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu" on the individual train's web page. Coach passengers be damned!
> 
> ETA: Just noticed the email to the "VP of Customer Service" (if such a position even exists) has been removed.


It was previously listed as the “Sleeping Car Menu”. However, the taken down menus were separate for the two routes - it was the “Lake Shore Limited Sleeping Car Menu” and the “Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu”. They were still the same, but titled for the individual routes. Seems like the only differences are the name change and the lack of a “VP of Customer Experience”. I guess he/she got so much hate that Amtrak figured they would give the person a break and just let angry passengers fume on their own.


----------



## jis

Since Customer Experience has been reduced to zero, who needs a VP for it? [emoji57][emoji53]


----------



## Steve4031

Here is the email address so we can stay on this clown.

VP.customerexperience at amtrak dot com


----------



## cpotisch

I really wonder if that person ever existed. I feel like he/she was probably just a computer program writing automatic responses, with the occasional actual response from some low level employee. It just struck me as a made-up title, sending back fake responses.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Since Customer Experience has been reduced to zero, who needs a VP for it? [emoji57][emoji53]


I've had a great customer experience on the empire builder with boxed dinners being delivered to my room by my SCA. 
I've had a very poor customer experience on the coast starlight in the Parlour car when the LSA was apparently annoyed that anyone wanted to ️dine in that car.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Customer Experience has been reduced to zero, who needs a VP for it? [emoji57][emoji53]
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a great customer experience on the empire builder with boxed dinners being delivered to my room by my SCA.
> 
> I've had a very poor customer experience on the coast starlight in the Parlour car when the LSA was *apparently annoyed that anyone wanted to ️done in that car.*
Click to expand...

Sorry, did you mean dine?


----------



## chrsjrcj

I sent a suggestion about adding hot meals to that email address when the menu first went up on the site. Never received any type of response.


----------



## dlagrua

jis said:


> Since Customer Experience has been reduced to zero, who needs a VP for it? [emoji57][emoji53]


The strangest thing about this is that it not only eliminates jobs but hurts those that contribute the highest per mile revenue to the service. This move is an abomination. Instead of trying to attract people to purchase the high priced sleeper tickets, they respond with a cheap crappy boxed lunch for a 20+ hr trip. IMO, that boxed lunch offers little incentive to selling more premium priced tickets. If this holds, we will no longer ride and will take to the road again where we can enjoy a decent dinner like civilized people..

Write people and keep writing. Keep the pressure on. Let your voice be heard.


----------



## greatcats

I am a letter write, and have been composing letters in my head since returning from a cross country trip a few weeks ago. One is not supposed to use strong, objectionable language in. Business letter, and am having trouble finding the appropriate words.


----------



## PVD

Labeling the packages is different than providing the list in advance which would be much more useful in planning. The Lesley agreement, which is most commonly cited in college settings is different than the Amtrak scenario because it emanated from a school where the meal plan was mandatory for freshman. The students were obligated to pay for a service they might not be able to use, If I put ingredients on a package, it doesn't give you the opportunity to make alternate arrangements.

The food I had on the train yesterday had extensive ingredient lists, but the problems with combined ingredients don't go away. There needs to be a simple easy resource to help people.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Customer Experience has been reduced to zero, who needs a VP for it? [emoji57][emoji53]
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a very poor customer experience on the coast starlight in the Parlour car when the LSA was apparently annoyed that anyone wanted to ️dine in that car.
Click to expand...

My "premium" cold sandwich lunch in the PPC had the taste and texture of stale leftovers from the previous night. Apparently the EB has better cold meals but it seems doubtful that specific supplier will be involved in these particular routes. I still think the sleeper fare should be lowered to split the discount between seller and buyer. For me Amtrak's decision to leave their sleeper refund penalties fully intact during the transition period was a bad omen. If they had any confidence in their own sales pitch you'd think they'd be willing to show some good faith effort to give people a choice in Guinea pig duty.


----------



## Lonestar648

I don't think anyone is a guinea pig or test subject. Rather, this is a permanent change with no intent to reversing the decision. Expect to see burnt bridges behind this decision so no one can go back. No facts, just a gut feeling how all the pieces are fitting together.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Under federal law, Amtrak has to cover all its food and beverage expenses. The problem is the Mica-inspried law. The voters in Florida got rid of Mica, now it's time for Congress to get rid of this law.


----------



## Lonestar648

Who in Congress would be a good sponsor to such a bill or for a rider to a bill? Probably many would sign on, but a Rep needs to sponsor it.


----------



## TinCan782

Published yesterday, May 31 in Toledo ...

*Unions call for Amtrak to restore full dining-car service*

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2018/05/31/Union-calls-for-Amtrak-to-restore-full-dining-car-service.html


----------



## Lonestar648

Airlines believe they hold ALL the cards. Forbes has an article this week about how American is retrofitting its entire 737 fleet with just two bathrooms, that are the new "mini" 24" width where you can not turn or wash both hands at the same time. Plus when they make this "upgrade" that are increasing the number of seats from 160 to 172. American has such a high percentage of seats sold, management isn't afraid to "squeeze"even more out of the traveling public. Anderson comes from this mentality of Airline executives.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

For all I know, Mr. Anderson may be a very nice man who rescues stray animals and lets people with just a couple of items go ahead of him in the grocery line.

But he is just not a good fit for Amtrak. To be fair, he may not have realized this when he took the job.

I'm sure he is not used to passengers who speak up.

I don't know what airline unions are like, but he doesn't seem to have seen the Amtrak union backlash coming.

And the spokespeople seem to be caught off guard as well--if Marc M. has to resort to saying that passengers always could ask for food to be brought to their rooms (which has nothing to do with the current changes in the meal service), he's grasping at straws, I think, in an attempt to divert attention from the real issue.


----------



## TinCan782

FrensicPic said:


> Published yesterday, May 31 in Toledo ...
> 
> *Unions call for Amtrak to restore full dining-car service*
> 
> http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2018/05/31/Union-calls-for-Amtrak-to-restore-full-dining-car-service.html


"Marc Magliari, an Amtrak spokesman, declined to comment on the union’s statement except to state that *the pre-packaged meals to be offered to sleeping-car passengers* *are not limited to the cold examples cited in initial statements* about the new meal service." Wonder what those meals are? Purchase from the cafe/lounge car?


----------



## Bob Dylan

greatcats said:


> Just looked at the menu. The breakfast is inadequate. Some of the cold choices for dinner may be appetizing, but still inadequate. The blurb about so your journey will have no boundaries is a glaring example of a corporate crock.


This!
The boundaries will be either dying of hunger or beating a path to the Toliet due to swill being given fancy marketing names by the BS wizards in charge of this flim flam scam.


----------



## Lonestar648

Just more Corporate and Legal spin attempting to placate the passengers and the unions.


----------



## TinCan782

Steve4031 said:


> Here is the email address so we can stay on this clown.
> 
> VP.customerexperience at amtrak dot com


A week ago I sent my comments to this email address. I received a reply today from a "Customer Relations Specialist", a person with a persons [email protected] email address. It was also assigned a case number.

Here is the reply I received today ...

_Dear Mr. xxxx:_

_Thank you for your comments regarding our upcoming Contemporary Dining service on theCapitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited routes._

_Amtrak is introducing new dining options this summer on board these routes. Amtrak aims to provide a more sustainable approach that produces less waste while maintaining the quality that our passengers have come to expect. These new offerings are intended to provide a more contemporary food service and will contribute to improved financial performance on these routes. The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers. Customers purchasing premium service will have additional amenities including exclusive access to tables in the sleeper lounge or in the private comfort of our passenger’s accommodations. In the future, customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure. Our new service will allow additional investment into these routes to further improve the passenger experience._

_Customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon._

_Case #: xxxxxx_

Nothing unexpected in the response.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Here comes the new more contemporary Sleeping Car Attendant...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Only real news in the Corpspeak email that Fresnic received is the statement that ".. in the future,customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure.."

Inquiring minds want to know how long into the future will this occur? Maybe as soon as the VLII order is completed and delivered?

"..the answer my friend is Blowing in the Wind.."


----------



## cpotisch

Bob Dylan said:


> Only real news in the Corpspeak email that Fresnic received is the statement that ".. in the future,customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure.."
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know how long into the future will this occur? Maybe as soon as the VLII order is completed and delivered?
> 
> "..the answer my friend is Blowing in the Wind.."


I was thinking the same thing. I do agree with that strategy, even if I ultimately prefer the previous system of table service and hot meals.


----------



## tommylicious

So any photos or reports by the earliest victims of this slowly unfolding LD sleeper experience deprecation?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> So any photos or reports by the earliest victims of this slowly unfolding LD sleeper experience deprecation?


Isn’t dinner the first meal on 449(1), 448(1), 29(1) & 30(1)? If so, the dinner hours haven’t started yet.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> So any photos or reports by the earliest victims of this slowly unfolding LD sleeper experience deprecation?
> 
> 
> 
> the dinner hours haven’t started yet.
Click to expand...

Well, they just did. We've got a couple hours until the Cap starts serving dinner, but the Lake Shore should be at this point. That said, I realize we don't know how meal times work out with this new system, so who knows?


----------



## chrsjrcj

If there are no boundaries, can I eat dinner at 4 pm?


----------



## dlagrua

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> So any photos or reports by the earliest victims of this slowly unfolding LD sleeper experience deprecation?
> 
> 
> 
> the dinner hours haven’t started yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, they just did. We've got a couple hours until the Cap starts serving dinner, but the Lake Shore should be at this point. That said, I realize we don't know how meal times work out with this new system, so who knows?
Click to expand...

To refer to a meal in a cardboard box as "dinner" is a stretch. Look at the federal bureau of prisons dinner menu and understand that convicts eat better food. That's right the prisoners are eating hot food that's better than what Amtrak passengers that pay big bucks get.

Check it out: https://www.bop.gov/foia/national_menu_lun_en.pdf


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Have you ever actually eaten prison chow? How about a county jail kitchen tray? If yes by all meals spill the beans, but if not can you please stop with this overreaching message diluting nonsense? Jail and prison food is horrible and if you'd ever actually had any you'd stop talking about it in a positive light.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

FrensicPic, in comment 1029 above, I got the exact same email yesterday word for word so that is all I expect. I'm riding the Capitol Limited DC to Chicago June 13 and will reserve critical or complimentary comments until then since I am not opposed to a cold food Item and I usually wait until I get to Chicago to eat breakfast off the train.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If you look at the complimentary drink menu it's pretty clear they are trying to please a certain demographic. I guess I fall into that demo partially because I got pretty excited when I saw Starbucks cold brew and LaCroix on the list.

And yes... I eat salads at Panera or Jasons Deli quite frequently for lunch or dinner.

If the end result is the current menu plus some hot items, I would be quite happy.


----------



## cpotisch

dlagrua said:


> That's right the prisoners are eating hot food that's better than what Amtrak passengers that pay big bucks get.
> 
> Check it out: https://www.bop.gov/foia/national_menu_lun_en.pdf


Really? Are you kidding? I think I can say that you'd probably take a cold continental breakfast or a chicken salad over some hot gruel in a prison cafeteria. If that's not the case, why don't you go rob a convenience store and you can enjoy three to six months of fine dining.


----------



## iplaybass

So what do the CL and LSL consists look like now?


----------



## Ryan

From back on page two. Not sure if this plan is what actually executed.



KnightRail said:


> New consists:
> 
> 29/30 Capital Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> TransDorm - 39000 series
> 
> Sleepers - 32000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge
> 
> *Sightseer Lounge - 33000 series
> 
> Coaches - 31000/34000 series
> 
> 48/49 Lake Shore Limited:
> 
> Diesels - P42s/P32
> 
> Baggage(BOS) - 61000 series
> 
> Sleeper(BOS) - 62000 series
> 
> *Cafe/Business(BOS) - 48100 series
> 
> Coaches(BOS) - 25000 series
> 
> Coaches - 25000 series
> 
> *Sleeper Lounge - 68000 series [New CAF diner operating as a sleeper lounge, something that has been foreshadowed here for some time now]
> 
> Sleepers - 62000 series
> 
> Baggage - 61000 series
> 
> (*) staffed with one Lead Service Attendant(LSA)


----------



## cpotisch

iplaybass said:


> So what do the CL and LSL consists look like now?


I'm pretty sure the Capitol's is physically the same is it always was, however the CCC is now being used as the Sleeper Lounge. And the LSL seems to have just replaced the Amfleet II diner-lite with a Viewliner II Diner-turned-Sleeper-Lounge.


----------



## PVD

Sometime after midnight tom'w I will board the LSL. Since my hockey meeting will end around 3, my ride from one of the board members who lives 2 minutes from the Depew station should get me there about 8 hours before the train. Look for comments and observations from me sometime Sunday, assume I will conk out quickly on the train (Bedroom B)


----------



## lordsigma

I will try to catch when 449 LSL comes through Springfield, MA tomrorrow and check out the consist.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

cpotisch said:


> And the LSL seems to have just replaced the Amfleet II diner-lite with a Viewliner II Diner-turned-Sleeper-Lounge.


So these brand new Diners that took forever to come into service are being wasted as Lounges!


----------



## tommylicious

Our family shan't ride either of these lines agin until proper diner service is restored. We just jettisoned our Amtrak plans for the fall because of the sleeper service depreciations amd bought plane tickets instead.


----------



## JRR

pennyk said:


> iplaybass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.
> 
> 
> 
> I just received probably the same email. Although I have several trips in June, I will not be traveling on the Capitol Limited until July.
Click to expand...

Same here.


----------



## cpotisch

It seems like the LSL consist has changed a lot since it stopped running to NYP. This was filmed yesterday in Ohio, before contemporary service had started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVUrf2EwIZY

In order, that's:


1 P42
1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
4 Amfleet II Coaches
1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
2 Viewliner I Sleepers
Previously, the combined consist was usually:


2 P42s
1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
1 Viewliner Sleeper
1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
6 or 7 Amfleet II Coaches
1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
2 Viewliner I Sleepers
1 Viewliner II Baggage Car


----------



## chrsjrcj

Interesting that the baggage is in front and sleepers on the rear.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

4 Sleepers to 2 Sleepers

7 Coaches to 4 Coaches

Placement of the sleeper and baggage car is the least of my issues.

Explains a early post on why people were getting bumped to coach from sleeper.


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> 4 Sleepers to 2 Sleepers
> 
> 7 Coaches to 4 Coaches
> 
> Placement of the sleeper and baggage car is the least of my issues.
> 
> Explains a early post on why people were getting bumped to coach from sleeper.


But as you said, they reduced the coaches by pretty much the same percentage as the sleepers, and those often run full on the LSL anyway.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> It seems like the LSL consist has changed a lot since it stopped running to NYP. This was filmed yesterday in Ohio, before contemporary service had started:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVUrf2EwIZY
> 
> In order, that's:
> 
> 
> 1 P42
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
> 4 Amfleet II Coaches
> 1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
> 1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
> 2 Viewliner I Sleepers
> Previously, the combined consist was:
> 
> 
> 2 P42s
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
> 1 Viewliner Sleeper
> 1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
> 7 Amfleet II Coaches
> 1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
> 3 Viewliner I Sleepers
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car





Just-Thinking-51 said:


> 4 Sleepers to 2 Sleepers
> 
> 7 Coaches to 4 Coaches
> 
> Placement of the sleeper and baggage car is the least of my issues.
> 
> Explains a early post on why people were getting bumped to coach from sleeper.



I'm not sure what consist Cpotisch is imaging, but the typical LSL consist never had 4 sleepers or 7 coaches. I don't even remember it having 4 sleepers on holidays.

The consist was altered by 1 coach, 1 sleeper and 1 baggage car. It lost three cars. Boston can't really accommodate an eleven car train without running into problems. 10 is a stretch.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like the LSL consist has changed a lot since it stopped running to NYP. This was filmed yesterday in Ohio, before contemporary service had started:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVUrf2EwIZY
> 
> In order, that's:
> 
> 
> 1 P42
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
> 4 Amfleet II Coaches
> 1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
> 1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
> 2 Viewliner I Sleepers
> Previously, the combined consist was:
> 2 P42s
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
> 1 Viewliner Sleeper
> 1 Amfleet I Business/Cafe
> 7 Amfleet II Coaches
> 1 Amfleet II Diner-Lite
> 3 Viewliner I Sleepers
> 1 Viewliner II Baggage Car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what consist Cpotisch is imaging, but the typical LSL consist never had 4 sleepers or 7 coaches. I don't even remember it having 4 sleepers on holidays.
> The consist was altered by 1 coach, 1 sleeper and 1 baggage car. It lost three cars. Boston can't really accommodate an eleven car train without running into problems. 10 is a stretch.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant three sleepers total (typo). However the combined train runs with 6 or 7 coaches pretty frequently. I guess it depends on the season, but here are just a couple examples of the LSL running with 7 coaches:


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Sorry, I meant three sleepers total (typo). However the combined train runs with 6 or 7 coaches pretty frequently. I guess it depends on the season, but here are just a couple examples of the LSL running with 7 coaches:


No, they do not frequently operate with 6 or 7 coaches. These two videos you posted were published close to Thanksgiving, Amtrak's busiest travel period. So, it isn't surprising that extra equipment is assigned to the train. That is typical.

You may also see extra equipment tacked on to the train because it is being ferried to another terminal for use. Someone recently posted the Silver Meteor had the 8400 and six coaches in the consist. 2 of those coaches were being ferried to HIA.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thank you for the clarification, Thirdrail7.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Today 2 June 2018 upstate NY (1 June departure Chicago) Train 448 has a Viewliner dinning car.

1 Engine #10

1 Bagged

4 Coaches

1 Cafe Car (Should be 50% table, 50% B-Class)

1 Viewliner Dinning Car

2 Viewliner Sleepers.

Running late about one hour.


----------



## Train_Freak

I just left Boston on the Lake Shore, and the cafe car attendant announced that there is some new items on the cafe car menu. I didn’t catch everything, but I caught that there’s some new sandwiches. So at least the cafe car menu got updated, might head back there later on to see what else is new.


----------



## cpotisch

Train_Freak said:


> I just left Boston on the Lake Shore, and the cafe car attendant announced that there is some new items on the cafe car menu. I didn’t catch everything, but I caught that there’s some new sandwiches. So at least the cafe car menu got updated, might head back there later on to see what else.


Glad to hear that they may have updated the offerings. I second other members' sentiments that sleeper passengers should at least be offered a complimentary "entree" from the cafe car if they don't like the selection in the Sleeper Lounge, but even if they don't do that, I'm happy that coach passengers are getting a bit of a break.

Small request: could you possibly check to see which physical Viewliner II they're using as the Sleeper Lounge on your train? There's a plate on the back wall of the car that will say the year built and car number.


----------



## john small berries

Mystic River Dragon said:


> For all I know, Mr. Anderson may be a very nice man who rescues stray animals and lets people with just a couple of items go ahead of him in the grocery line.
> 
> But he is just not a good fit for Amtrak. To be fair, he may not have realized this when he took the job.
> 
> I'm sure he is not used to passengers who speak up.
> 
> <snip>


You obviously do not follow the airline or flyer talk sites or you would have never made that statement about passengers not speaking up.

The amount of vitriol is pretty well matched by what is written here.

So is the occasional bout of nostalgia for times when passengers wore suits and were fed with dinners carved from carts in the aisles and the unwashed rode trains or busses.

But because the airlines, with the exception of United (whose indifference to passengers is unmatched except maybe by Aeroflot), have been through this cycle long ago and adjusted to new realities the whining is without all the bitter railfan tears that, if served with fava beans, would be a perfect complement for the b**ching and moaning that went on when Boardman was running Amtrak.

Now that particular target has merely been replaced with a new villain.


----------



## tommylicious

john small berries said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> For all I know, Mr. Anderson may be a very nice man who rescues stray animals and lets people with just a couple of items go ahead of him in the grocery line.
> 
> But he is just not a good fit for Amtrak. To be fair, he may not have realized this when he took the job.
> 
> I'm sure he is not used to passengers who speak up.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously do not follow the airline or flyer talk sites or you would have never made that statement about passengers not speaking up.
> 
> The amount of vitriol is pretty well matched by what is written here.
> 
> So is the occasional bout of nostalgia for times when passengers wore suits and were fed with dinners carved from carts in the aisles and the unwashed rode trains or busses.
> 
> But because the airlines, with the exception of United (whose indifference to passengers is unmatched except maybe by Aeroflot), have been through this cycle long ago and adjusted to new realities the whining is without all the bitter railfan tears that, if served with fava beans, would be a perfect complement for the b**ching and moaning that went on when Boardman was running Amtrak.
> 
> Now that particular target has merely been replaced with a new villain.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute....who's complaining about anything here?


----------



## Train_Freak

cpotisch said:


> Train_Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just left Boston on the Lake Shore, and the cafe car attendant announced that there is some new items on the cafe car menu. I didn’t catch everything, but I caught that there’s some new sandwiches. So at least the cafe car menu got updated, might head back there later on to see what else.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear that they may have updated the offerings. I second other members' sentiments that sleeper passengers should at least be offered a complimentary "entree" from the cafe car if they don't like the selection in the Sleeper Lounge, but even if they don't do that, I'm happy that coach passengers are getting a bit of a break.
> Small request: could you possibly check to see which physical Viewliner II they're using as the Sleeper Lounge on your train? There's a plate on the back wall of the car that will say the year built and car number.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t able to see the car name/number as I would of had to of gone through business class. At the next “fresh air stop” I’ll walk back on the platform to find out the car name.


----------



## cpotisch

Train_Freak said:


> I wasn’t able to see the car name/number as I would of had to of gone through business class. At the next “fresh air stop” I’ll walk back on the platform to find out the car name.


Thank you! Just one of those things that I'm just wondering about without any logical reason.


----------



## PVD

I am getting on sometime after midnight, Im sitting in Depew station now. No controversy on our agenda, too bad, I don't think I would have minded a few more hours at the meeting and dinner out with the rest of the board.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Devil's Advocate said:


> Have you ever actually eaten prison chow? How about a county jail kitchen tray? If yes by all meals spill the beans, but if not can you please stop with this overreaching message diluting nonsense? Jail and prison food is horrible and if you'd ever actually had any you'd stop talking about it in a positive light.






cpotisch said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right the prisoners are eating hot food that's better than what Amtrak passengers that pay big bucks get.
> 
> Check it out: https://www.bop.gov/foia/national_menu_lun_en.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Are you kidding? I think I can say that you'd probably take a cold continental breakfast or a chicken salad over some hot gruel in a prison cafeteria. If that's not the case, why don't you go rob a convenience store and you can enjoy three to six months of fine dining.
Click to expand...

While it may be a stretch, I would ask if any of the posters above or those who liked their posts have eaten prison food. Even if the answer is yes, the intent of the post is clear. If you look at the actual menu, prisoners have multiple choices for meals that tend to not repeat themselves for lunch and dinner. Indeed, a cursory skim indicates only one main course item repeats itself within the first 2 weeks (28 servings. )

While I don't want to go to prison and find out about the quality of the food, I do ask: Can someone who may ride the LSL from BOS-CHI and then take the CAP from CHI-WAS/BOS say the same thing...after spending 1000's of dollars? It seems like you'll get the same breakfast daily and there are only three choices with your fare. If you're on the train longer, too bad!

Our tax dollars subsidize both!


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Train_Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn’t able to see the car name/number as I would of had to of gone through business class. At the next “fresh air stop” I’ll walk back on the platform to find out the car name.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Just one of those things that I'm just wondering about without any logical reason.
Click to expand...


I don't know which one you're on, but instead of you running around trying to find the name of a car that may not even be on the platform, 448(2) has the 68019 and 449(2) has the 68021.

Happy Cpotisch?


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> While it may be a stretch, I would ask if any of the posters above or those who liked their posts have eaten prison food. Even if the answer is yes, the intent of the post is clear. If you look at the actual menu, prisoners have multiple choices for meals that tend to not repeat themselves for lunch and dinner. Indeed, a cursory skim indicates only one main course item repeats itself within the first 2 weeks (28 servings. )


While I agree that people in prison seem to have more variety, there's a lot more to food than just what is listed on the menu. The quality of ingredients, preparation, etc. are really what matters.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Happy Cpotisch?


Pretty happy.


----------



## lordsigma

Train_Freak said:


> I just left Boston on the Lake Shore, and the cafe car attendant announced that there is some new items on the cafe car menu. I didn’t catch everything, but I caught that there’s some new sandwiches. So at least the cafe car menu got updated, might head back there later on to see what else is new.


Train Freak I guess I saw your train heading through Springfield Station. I went to see the new consist and got video of it entering the station. Here's the video

https://player.vimeo.com/video/273128489?app_id=122963


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> Train Freak I guess I saw your train heading through Springfield Station. I went to see the new consist and got video of it entering the station. Here's the video
> 
> https://player.vimeo.com/video/273128489?app_id=122963


Thanks for posting! My first ever view of a ViewDiner on the LSL!


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While it may be a stretch, I would ask if any of the posters above or those who liked their posts have eaten prison food. Even if the answer is yes, the intent of the post is clear. If you look at the actual menu, prisoners have multiple choices for meals that tend to not repeat themselves for lunch and dinner. Indeed, a cursory skim indicates only one main course item repeats itself within the first 2 weeks (28 servings. )
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that people in prison seem to have more variety, there's a lot more to food than just what is listed on the menu. The quality of ingredients, preparation, etc. are really what matters.
Click to expand...


How much prep goes into a yogurt? It could be the best turkey in the world, but it is still a cold turkey sandwich....delivered in a cardboard box to your child. The vegetables on the Vegan Wrap could have just been harvested and delivered right from the farm as the train passes ALB and is wrapped right in front of you.

That's stuff you could bring for yourself....and save a 1000 dollars. If we're paying for the room, charge for the room like you did on the Star. If you're charging for the food, then make it something of VALUE....not something that I could have brought from the convenience store or the cafe car and stored it in a cooler underneath my seat.


----------



## cpotisch

I'm not at all defending the new selection on the LSL and CL. I'm just saying that I'm not going to base it all on appearances. I would trust Amtrak to provide better meals to sleeper passengers than what prisons offer their inmates. Just given what I've heard about what people are served in America's prisons, even if the selection appears to be more varied than on Amtrak, I'm going to assume that contemporary dining is better than prison dining.


----------



## lordsigma

cpotisch said:


> Train Freak I guess I saw your train heading through Springfield Station. I went to see the new consist and got video of it entering the station. Here's the video
> 
> https://player.vimeo.com/video/273128489?app_id=122963


Weird to see any kind of diner coming through SPG. I hope to take the train sometime this summer before it reverts to its normal schedule.


----------



## Larry H.

john small berries said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> For all I know, Mr. Anderson may be a very nice man who rescues stray animals and lets people with just a couple of items go ahead of him in the grocery line.
> 
> But he is just not a good fit for Amtrak. To be fair, he may not have realized this when he took the job.
> 
> I'm sure he is not used to passengers who speak up.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously do not follow the airline or flyer talk sites or you would have never made that statement about passengers not speaking up.
> 
> The amount of vitriol is pretty well matched by what is written here.
> 
> So is the occasional bout of nostalgia for times when passengers wore suits and were fed with dinners carved from carts in the aisles and the unwashed rode trains or busses.
> 
> But because the airlines, with the exception of United (whose indifference to passengers is unmatched except maybe by Aeroflot), have been through this cycle long ago and adjusted to new realities the whining is without all the bitter railfan tears that, if served with fava beans, would be a perfect complement for the b**ching and moaning that went on when Boardman was running Amtrak.
> 
> Now that particular target has merely been replaced with a new villain.
Click to expand...

I don't think that one can compare an airline flight of a few hours to several days on board a train. If I had to eat the awful sandwich we had on the City Of New Orleans two weeks ago I wouldn't go. It was that bad. Three days of never!


----------



## Train_Freak

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Train_Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn’t able to see the car name/number as I would of had to of gone through business class. At the next “fresh air stop” I’ll walk back on the platform to find out the car name.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Just one of those things that I'm just wondering about without any logical reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know which one you're on, but instead of you running around trying to find the name of a car that may not even be on the platform, 448(2) has the 68019 and 449(2) has the 68021.
> 
> Happy Cpotisch?
Click to expand...

Thank you Third Rail, for posting the car numbers, I had a mental note to check the Viewliner diner/sleeper lounge but I forgot to do so.



lordsigma said:


> Train_Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just left Boston on the Lake Shore, and the cafe car attendant announced that there is some new items on the cafe car menu. I didn’t catch everything, but I caught that there’s some new sandwiches. So at least the cafe car menu got updated, might head back there later on to see what else is new.
> 
> 
> 
> Train Freak I guess I saw your train heading through Springfield Station. I went to see the new consist and got video of it entering the station. Here's the video https://vimeo.com/273128489
Click to expand...

Yep that’s the train I’m on. Thank you Lordsigma for sharing the video.


----------



## cpotisch

So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!


----------



## Train_Freak

cpotisch said:


> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!





I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.


----------



## cpotisch

Train_Freak said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7739.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7750.jpg
> I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.
Click to expand...

Thank you! So Thirdrail, I guess Raleigh wasn't on 449(2).


----------



## PVD

I guess I'll see it in 5 or so hours. 281 just came through, led by 708, as it was on Thurs when I came up here


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I guess I'll see it in 5 or so hours. 281 just came through, led by 708, as it was on Thurs when I came up here


You're boarding tomorrow, right?


----------



## cpotisch

Train_Freak said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7739.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7750.jpg
> I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.
Click to expand...

Looking through the window of 68019, it seems like there aren't any tablecloths inside. Of course! Why even bother trying to make the experience decent?


----------



## CHamilton

Not appetizing.

https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639


----------



## PVD

It arrives here after midnight so technically yes.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

cpotisch said:


> Train_Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7739.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7750.jpg
> I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looking through the window of 68019, it seems like there aren't any tablecloths inside. Of course! Why even bother trying to make the experience decent?
Click to expand...

And look at that big new expensive kitchen now going to waste!


----------



## PVD

The pertinent questions How was food served? What was the selection like? And finally, how was the food quality?


----------



## zepherdude

It looks like an airline snack meal, years ago. Not first class quality.


----------



## chrsjrcj

CHamilton said:


> Not appetizing.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639


I honestly hoped for at least something bigger, if not more appetizing looking. At least make it presentable.

Sigh.


----------



## lordsigma

I have said this before but I still think to put the kitchens to use on the LSL I think they should scrap the cafe car prep area and instead put an employee in the ViewDiner kitchen and prepare the "café" meals there for both sleeper and coach passengers, and just make the cafe area all lounge seating for coach. Could put in some sort of ordering counter in the viewdiner. The better equipped viewdiner kitchen would improve the café options and could allow for a hot complementary option to be added to the sleeper car passengers.


----------



## Thirdrail7

chrsjrcj said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not appetizing.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly hoped for at least something bigger, if not more appetizing looking. At least make it presentable.
> Sigh.
Click to expand...

It's worse than I thought. Hey Ryan, love you to pieces but now that I've seen it, is it ok to officially complain? I was going to do it anyway but you commented that we haven't even seen it.

At any rate, this is the only thing to do





(the link is clean and cued up. Watch from 17:39 to -18:41



).


----------



## chrsjrcj

Is that video shown to passengers before serving the meals?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Here is the photo for those who don't wish to be part of Facebook's next brainwashing data breach.




It doesn't look horrible but it also doesn't look very filling. Looks similar to some of the purchasable airline snack packs I've seen over the years.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Here is another one floating around on Facebook


----------



## FreeskierInVT

Devil's Advocate said:


> Here is the photo for those who don't wish to be part of Facebook's next brainwashing data breach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakContemporaryColdMeal.jpg
> 
> It doesn't look horrible but it also doesn't look very filling. Looks similar to some of the purchasable airline snack packs I've seen over the years.


What meal was that for?


----------



## chrsjrcj

FreeskierInVT said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the photo for those who don't wish to be part of Facebook's next brainwashing data breach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakContemporaryColdMeal.jpg
> 
> It doesn't look horrible but it also doesn't look very filling. Looks similar to some of the purchasable airline snack packs I've seen over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> What meal was that for?
Click to expand...

That looks like the Antipasto Plate.


----------



## Lonestar648

That is your Dinner. Looks like Amtrak wants every one on a diet.


----------



## tommylicious

BOYCOTT, MY PRETTIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RUN!!!!!!!!!!! BE FREEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tommylicious

chrsjrcj said:


> Here is another one floating around on Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> food.j


Well, glad I rode Amtrak when I did. Not riding ever again as long as this keeps up! Such a travesty of misapplication of managerial accounting. Legacy retirement costs amortized over meals to kill the service, and sleeper service killed off eventually as noone in their right mind will subject themselves to this insulting severe deprecation of service, all wrapped in politically correct, PR/HR-speak lies. SHAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SHAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wi-smb

seat38a said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way of saying that without seeing what the meals are like. Unlimited soda and (limited) free booze are an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> Soda and free booze are not an upgrade to those of us who don't drink soda or liquor. I want my eggs! (Although, to be fair, Amtrak's eggs don't compare with a real breakfast cooked in a real breakfast restaurant or--you knew this was coming--a south Jersey diner!
> 
> 
> 
> .)
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but the free booze should keep you feeling nice and warm until your destination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure that a single nightcap will keep me warm all the way to my destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I firmly exercise my privilege as a sleeping car passenger and stop at BevMo before boarding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is BevMo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its a west coast thing. They specialize in wine/beer/alcohol. Think Liquor Store but big bright and the size of a supermarket.
Click to expand...

Oh, kind of like Total Wine and Spirits


----------



## AmtrakBlue

chrsjrcj said:


> FreeskierInVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the photo for those who don't wish to be part of Facebook's next brainwashing data breach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakContemporaryColdMeal.jpg
> 
> It doesn't look horrible but it also doesn't look very filling. Looks similar to some of the purchasable airline snack packs I've seen over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> What meal was that for?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That looks like the Antipasto Plate.
Click to expand...

Isn’t antipasto usually an appetizer? The other one posted above doesn’t look too bad to me. Looks like a lot of meat - for me at least.


----------



## IndyLions

For those of us who prefer hot meals, there is no cold meal that is going to look appetizing. Realistically, it looks like a cold pre-packaged meal that is done relatively well, at least the antipasto plate.

From what I’ve seen of the demographic in the Amtrak sleepers, however - I doubt it will be well received.


----------



## Palmland

Devil's Advocate said:


> Here is the photo for those who don't wish to be part of Facebook's next brainwashing data breach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakContemporaryColdMeal.jpgIt doesn't look horrible but it also doesn't look very filling. Looks similar to some of the purchasable airline snack packs I've seen over the years.


Reminds me of those party invitations where dinner isn’t served but ‘heavy hors d’oeuvres’ are offered. Guess this means we’ll be drinking more wine and eating less! Regardless, for us it’s all about the train ride and not the meals.


----------



## PVD

Just back from breakfast, new diner 68019. One slightly frazzled but friendly LSA. Occasional assistance from SCA. Decent coffee quickly, but in a paper cup. The breakfast box food quality was not bad, but I have to question some of the selections. A Kind bar and a Kashi bar. Personally I like both, but why have both? The fresh fruit was pretty good. Blueberry muffin and banana nut bread. Bread was good, I hate blueberries so that was not eaten. Perhaps a more generic muffin with a few different little packages of preserves and a pat of butter/spread would be better. Yogurt with fruit and granola (very good, 7 oz instead of the more common 5.3 that has taken over the industry) Toppings not mixed in, better in case you don't want them. Extensive nutrition and ingredients list packaged with the meal, appreciate the effort, but if they printed it on both sides of the card instead of cramming onto one, you could read it without an electron microscope. Missed the opportunity to chat with coach passengers that I used to enjoy on this train since many used to come in for breakfast, and yes I miss hot food (probably more so if this was a winter trip), calorie count, fats and carbs high, so some work on selections is in order.


----------



## chrsjrcj

How does ordering work? Since breakfast is always first come first served, do you just walk up to the kitchen to get your meal and drink?


----------



## IndyLions

Thanks for the report.

That is a a lot of food, but an unusual combination of items - especially two bars and two bread items. I can only surmise they expect people to eat part of it and save part of it for later.

What was the fruit?


----------



## tommylicious

IndyLions said:


> Thanks for the report.
> 
> That is a a lot of food, but an unusual combination of items - especially two bars and two bread items. I can only surmise they expect people to eat part of it and save part of it for later.
> 
> What was the fruit?


Carbs are cheap. Protein is expensive.


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> Thanks for the report.
> 
> That is a a lot of food, but an unusual combination of items - especially two bars and two bread items. I can only surmise they expect people to eat part of it and save part of it for later.
> 
> What was the fruit?


Two bread items doesnt strike me as odd, just since a blueberry muffin and banana bread are relatively differentx However, I really dont get why they have two granola bars, from different brands. They seem to want to make the selection as narrow and limited as possible, just for the sake of it. If they want to include one granola bar, fine, but I dont want it to become half of the meal.


----------



## PVD

Cantaloupe, Honeydew, (main part) Strawberry, Blackberry, Raspberry (side part)


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Cantaloupe, Honeydew, (main part) Strawberry, Blackberry, Raspberry (side part)


Could be worse. What do you think you're going to order for lunch? Also, is your Sleeper Lounge 68021?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cantaloupe, Honeydew, (main part) Strawberry, Blackberry, Raspberry (side part)
> 
> 
> 
> Could be worse. What do you think you're going to order for lunch? Also, is your Sleeper Lounge 68021?
Click to expand...

He's not getting lunch - he's on 449.


----------



## Thirdrail7

IndyLions said:


> Thanks for the report.
> 
> That is a a lot of food, but an unusual combination of items - especially two bars and two bread items. I can only surmise they expect people to eat part of it and save part of it for later.


It is quite obvious why they have two bars. You eat one at breakfast time. The other one is for when your trains is late and the cafe is out of supplies since the coach passengers are already sitting in the cafe and got to the counter at the first sign of trouble.

I can picture the conversation with the attendant now:

Passenger: I noticed we're very, VERY late. Are you planning on serving lunch prior to arrival?

Attendant: We do not have any meals for lunch.

Pax: Can we get something from the cafe car?

Att: I think they have two waters and a pack of M&Ms left...which they are giving out one at a time to coach passengers.

Pax: Something needs to be done. I paid a lot for this ticket!

Att: Well, don't you have one for your bars or muffins left?

Pax: No. I ate both muffins to make up for the Antipasto meal that only had 6 olives...2 of which I dropped on the floor. As such, I woke up hungry. I was planning on saving the Kashi bar, but the SCA ate it while my room was being cleaned. She said she arrived late, turned with the equipment and has been out here for three days with nothing but yogurt. She said it could be her tip. I felt bad and agreed.

Att: We should find her and see if she has any left.

Let the good times roll. Let's take a poll. How long until the Amtrak Black Market Food sales reemerges? The attendants, who are already being furloughed probably feel like they'll have nothing to lose by turning a blind eye to people selling I mean giving away food...for a "donation."


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cantaloupe, Honeydew, (main part) Strawberry, Blackberry, Raspberry (side part)
> 
> 
> 
> Could be worse. What do you think you're going to order for lunch? Also, is your Sleeper Lounge 68021?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He's not getting lunch - he's on 449.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Sorry, trip was reversed in my head.


----------



## PVD

I won't be on this train for lunch unless something goes terribly wrong. Due to a dispatching computer outage we have been behind a slow freight for an extended period of time, but should be in around 11 AM. I left out pineapple in my listing of the fruit plate. 68019 is the diner, 48151 is the split club. When I get off I'll look at my car and the P42s, I got on after midnight and really did,'t care last night.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I've had good coffee and bad coffee. I'm not sure what decent coffee is but it sounds like a euphemism for bad coffee. I had all the granola bars I could ever eat as a child so those wouldn't be touched. Fresh muffins and banana bread are wonderful but this sounds more like prepackaged factory bread from last week/month/quarter. So that basically leaves a serving of yogurt, which is the kind of food I only eat when I'm in a hurry, and fresh fruit. I like the idea of fresh fruit, and that's an item that isn't easy to pack and carry long distances yourself sans refrigeration, but it takes a lot of fruit to satiate an empty stomach. You'd probably need to fill up the entire breakfast box with fruit to make a full meal out of it.


----------



## cpotisch

Right, so you're on the same train as Train_Freak. You two should meet up!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Well, the reports are starting to come in from the Rails on the forums and overall they aren't real positive.

The pics and reports I've seen don't sound like the meals are appetizing and the SCAs seem to be overworked trying to juggle their various duties along,with serving the meals to the Sleeper passengers.

I'm interested in the New additions to the Cafe Menu mentioned in some posts( Sandwiches)and hope that the Suits @ Amtrak are considering offering them as alternate choices,along with Hot items, to Sleeping Car Passengers that can't eat many of the items in the New and Improved "Fresh Choice" meals.( a misnomer for sure since there are no choices!)


----------



## PVD

Actually the Cafe LSA is young, enthusiastic, and very pleasant on the mic. Both the diner and cafe attendants are trying real hard. Seats in BC were tagged with passenger's names and welcome aboard (handwritten, nice touch) The OBS folks are trying their best in a sad situation.


----------



## PVD

For the average person I'll change the coffee description to good.It is certainly an item where tastes vary widely, I'm not sure any single blend could satisfy everyone. It was hot, and not watered down. At this point in time the baked goods were quite fresh, yes, packaged, but seemed better than typical mass production. It really wouldn't be practical to have the baked goods not wrapped, since the meals are pre boxed. Lets see what they are like a few weeks into this to see if they are buying small lots and wrapping them for the boxes, or they've purchased a years supply and in a month will taste like rubber. Too soon to tell. It's only day 2, nothing could be stale yet.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> It's only day 2, nothing could be stale yet.


It's day 3, but I'm betting it's a year supply of soon-to-be-stale breads. Why not do that, right?


----------



## wi-smb

It could be that, or it could be the fresh-packaged-hours-before-departure meals one gets on airlines. Since some of the food on offer spoils anyway, Im fairly certain this is a contract with a company like Gate Gourmet, which does a decent job of packing meals for airlines.


----------



## PVD

Car has coffee, cranberry juice, and extra water bottles out at coffee station.


----------



## PVD

Today is day 3, but the train left Boston yesterday, which is why I said day 2


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Today is day 3, but the train left Boston yesterday, which is why I said day 2


Fair enough. Did you mention how the food was served? Did you get it from a counter or through your SCA or what?


----------



## PVD

You sat down at a booth, the LSA offered you coffee, gave you the slip for car/room number and signature, brought you the box, and cleaned off tables and a car attendant came through and offered refills for folks who wanted them. I know that a number of meals were brought to rooms, not mine.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I wonder if any were offered to coach passengers for purchase.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> You sat down at a booth, the LSA offered you coffee, gave you the slip for car/room number and signature, brought you the box, and cleaned off tables and a car attendant came through and offered refills for folks who wanted them. I know that a number of meals were brought to rooms, not mine.


So it was table service, then?


----------



## PVD

Partially, you were not seated as in the past, you just sat here you wanted. On a crowded train or meal period, I could see that changing. Also, since there are limited options at breakfast, the LSA just brings you a breakfast box. I guess you could say regular or decaf/ tea or juice are options, but I think folks get the message.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Partially, you were not seated as in the past, you just sat here you wanted. On a crowded train or meal period, I could see that changing. Also, since there are limited options at breakfast, the LSA just brings you a breakfast box. I guess you could say regular or decaf/ tea or juice are options, but I think folks get the message.


Thanks PVD. Regardless of how each of us may feel about the changes themselves I think we can all appreciate your timely reporting and willingness to respond to further inquiries. I doubt I'll ever be a fan of this new dining system but I am still thankful of the information you've brought to our forum.


----------



## PVD

Appreciated, I guess as a side note I should be happy the wi-fi is decent today and I am running late enough to have the laptop up, I don't think I have the patience to do this on my phone. My trip home Sunday on the CL will at least give me a chance to see first the hand dinner/lunch items and let folks know if they are decent quality. I can't speak for peoples' likes and dislikes, that is unfair, but I can make a reasonable judgement of appearance and quality.


----------



## CHvision

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2018/05/31/Union-calls-for-Amtrak-to-restore-full-dining-car-service.html

update on the new dining service


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It's not amtraks job to employee more food service staff than it needs. It's also not Amtraks job to provide a historic dining car experience.

It is amtraks job to provide food service for passengers on its trains. Parts of this program make sense to me, others do not.

The items in the boxed meals look pretty high quality to me. If some hot selections are added for dinner and breakfast, I don't see too many major problems. It's hard to judge this without knowing what the final goal is.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

> It's not amtraks job to employee more food service staff than it needs. It's also not Amtraks job to provide a historic dining car experience.


Interesting point of view. Love the part about historic.



> It is amtraks job to provide food service for passengers on its trains.


No its not Amtrak job or responsible. Common sense maybe but not its job.



> Parts of this program make sense to me, others do not.


What parts make sense?



> The items in the boxed meals look pretty high quality to me. If some hot selections are added for dinner and breakfast, I don't see too many major problems.


You like but only with addiction?



> It's hard to judge this without knowing what the final goal is.


The final goal is to provide a service that people want to use again.

Growth of your customer base.

Responsible of tax payer funds.

Cut your expense to the point of losing revenue is not a worthwhile goal.


----------



## Lonestar648

Not sure, with the existing crew stretched to the max, how they can add anything hot. Since reducing labor costs seems to be the target of all this, adding an additional person doesn't seem to be an option. Sounds like the two protein bars are your lunch. Not much available for anyone with food allergies, like soy or gluten. The breakfast sounds better than the dinner. Generally, an antipasto is an appetizer, though some places have an entree that is an antipasto salad.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Handing someone a boxed meal is being stretched to the max? If the 1 LSA can heat up items for coach passengers in the cafe, sometimes with a seemingly never ending line, it seems they should be capable of the same for sleeping car passengers.

No, you have choices from the lunch menu for lunch, not protein bars.

The Antipasto is not the only option... I can see some people wanting that option for lunch or dinner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> It is amtraks job to provide food service for passengers on its trains.
> 
> 
> 
> No its not Amtrak job or responsible. Common sense maybe but not its job.
> 
> 
> 
> Parts of this program make sense to me, others do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What parts make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> The items in the boxed meals look pretty high quality to me. If some hot selections are added for dinner and breakfast, I don't see too many major problems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You like but only with addiction?
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to judge this without knowing what the final goal is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The final goal is to provide a service that people want to use again.
> Growth of your customer base.
> 
> Responsible of tax payer funds.
> 
> Cut your expense to the point of losing revenue is not a worthwhile goal.
Click to expand...

- I thinks it's a responsibility to provide some sort of food service on long distance trains. You could do it greyhound style I suppose...

- the parts that make sense to me are advertising the option to eat in your room, allowing customers more flexibility in where and when they want to eat. Allowing free, open seating in the diner. Eliminating extra service staff, offering better free drink options.

I meant "the final goal" as... Is the final goal to served all cold meals? Or is the goal to serve hot meals as well, but this is an easier way to start a new program.


----------



## Palmetto

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's only day 2, nothing could be stale yet.
> 
> 
> 
> It's day 3, but I'm betting it's a year supply of soon-to-be-stale breads. Why not do that, right?
Click to expand...

I'm sure they have spotters riding the trains to observe, take notes, get passengers' reactions, right?


----------



## iplaybass

CHvision said:


> http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2018/05/31/Union-calls-for-Amtrak-to-restore-full-dining-car-service.html
> 
> update on the new dining service


I like the statement from Amtrak that sleeping car passengers have other options than the cold menu items listed. You want hot food, buy "sandwiches, snacks and beverages" from the cafe car.


----------



## fulham

This question is for PVD. How many employees are actually just working in the diner/sleeper lounge? You mentioned an LSA came by and had you fill out room number/car number, etc., but then you mentioned an attendant came by and offered you refills. Was the attendant offering you refills from the diner or was it a sleeping car attendant who was helping out in the diner?


----------



## cpotisch

When I took the LSL in a roomette CHI-NYP in February, our SCA wasn't very nice or helpful, and though at first we thought he was just a bad employee, we gradually got the since that he was actually a nice enough guy who was stretched incredibly thin. At the end of the ride, we were running 3 hours late, and he was doing everything he could to make sure we were all comfortable, and that the makeshift dinner they had scrambled together for us (supplies were limited) was satisfactory. When we tipped him at the end of the trip, he was incredibly grateful, further validating to me that he was a good guy trying his best. This new system gives the SCAs significantly more workload, and I think it is going to take a toll on the SCAs, leading to worse service for customers.


----------



## Larry H.

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's not amtraks job to employee more food service staff than it needs. It's also not Amtraks job to provide a historic dining car experience.
> 
> It is amtraks job to provide food service for passengers on its trains. Parts of this program make sense to me, others do not.
> 
> The items in the boxed meals look pretty high quality to me. If some hot selections are added for dinner and breakfast, I don't see too many major problems. It's hard to judge this without knowing what the final goal is.



I guess part of the question is how many will not pay the kind of fares they now seem to think are fair if no traditional food is served as always. Amtrak is not a plane, its not a bus it is an expensive long trip. How many railroads removed their diners on long distance trains in the past? Not many. Most considered good service and food the way to encourage passengers, even if in those days it wasn't working. Times have gone around again and people are utilizing rail more today than they were for some time. Do we really want to discourage many of those potential customers?


----------



## Larry H.

cpotisch said:


> When I took the LSL in a roomette CHI-NYP in February, our SCA wasn't very nice or helpful, and though at first we thought he was just a bad employee, we gradually got the since that he was actually a nice enough guy who was stretched incredibly thin. At the end of the ride, we were running 3 hours late, and he was doing everything he could to make sure we were all comfortable, and that the makeshift dinner they had scrambled together for us (supplies were limited) was satisfactory. When we tipped him at the end of the trip, he was incredibly grateful, further validating to me that he was a good guy trying his best. This new system gives the SCAs significantly more workload, and I think it is going to take a toll on the SCAs, leading to worse service for customers.


My two last rail trips seemed to indicate a new dedication to customer service at least as far as standard service was concerned. The diner was woefully understaffed and food pretty bad, but the woman was doing all she could to help out. There was one older man who was also the cafe attendant heating the food. He however was extremely rude to passengers attempting to eat who came from coach. All were sent out of the car or told they could only buy items from the cafe counter. The last women we passed who he did that too passed us in the aisle with her microwave sandwich and chips. I told her she was probably lucky they wouldn't sell her a dinner in the diner at the cost and taste of the food. She chuckled and when on.


----------



## PVD

It was not one of the SCA. I believe it was one of the coach attendants pitching in to help. I think I added the S in error in my original post. She had one of the pots from the diner, and offered a refill and tried to pick up anything that need throwing out .


----------



## MikefromCrete

PVD said:


> Just back from breakfast, new diner 68019. One slightly frazzled but friendly LSA. Occasional assistance from SCA. Decent coffee quickly, but in a paper cup. The breakfast box food quality was not bad, but I have to question some of the selections. A Kind bar and a Kashi bar. Personally I like both, but why have both? The fresh fruit was pretty good. Blueberry muffin and banana nut bread. Bread was good, I hate blueberries so that was not eaten. Perhaps a more generic muffin with a few different little packages of preserves and a pat of butter/spread would be better. Yogurt with fruit and granola (very good, 7 oz instead of the more common 5.3 that has taken over the industry) Toppings not mixed in, better in case you don't want them. Extensive nutrition and ingredients list packaged with the meal, appreciate the effort, but if they printed it on both sides of the card instead of cramming onto one, you could read it without an electron microscope. Missed the opportunity to chat with coach passengers that I used to enjoy on this train since many used to come in for breakfast, and yes I miss hot food (probably more so if this was a winter trip), calorie count, fats and carbs high, so some work on selections is in order.


How can anybody not like blueberries? They are nature's perfect food!

Kidding aside, those meals don't look very filling. Maybe they're designed to increase sales in the cafe car.


----------



## PVD

The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.


----------



## cpotisch

68020 'Providence' on #448 yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jh4oqRsjKM


----------



## chrsjrcj

Wasnt an amenity kit supposed to be included too?


----------



## tricia

PVD said:


> The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.


On the eastbound Capitol Ltd (perhaps should be re-named the Capital Limited?), the problem is that blood sugar will peak and crash after a sugar-and-starch-heavy breakfast long before the scheduled early-afternoon arrival time in DC. And the actual arrival time is often later.


----------



## MikefromCrete

PVD said:


> The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.


I was actually commenting on the dinner selections. The breakfast you described did contain a lot of food.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> Wasnt an amenity kit supposed to be included too?


It was, and the press release about contemporary dining still claims that, but I bet they didn't bother. I haven't found any mention of it by passengers, so I doubt they followed through with that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

MikefromCrete said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I was actually commenting on the dinner selections. The breakfast you described did contain a lot of food.
Click to expand...

I don't think it helped that most people are only seeing the antipasto salad, which to me would be of appetizer size, not dinner size. The other picture posted looked much better to me, looked like plenty of ?chicken? on one side of the box.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tricia said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.
> 
> 
> 
> On the eastbound Capitol Ltd (perhaps should be re-named the Capital Limited?), the problem is that blood sugar will peak and crash after a sugar-and-starch-heavy breakfast long before the scheduled early-afternoon arrival time in DC. And the actual arrival time is often later.
Click to expand...

Since the east bound Capitol runs during the published lunch hours it would seem reasonable it would serve lunch. Let's what the actual practice is.


----------



## chrsjrcj

When I rode the CL before the change, lunch was not offered. We were about 30 minutes late ariving DC too.

I do not know how that works with the new menu.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> When I rode the CL before the change, lunch was not offered. We were about 30 minutes late ariving DC too.
> 
> I do not know how that works with the new menu.


Yeah, the CL is one of those "subjective meal service" trains. I think you're technically supposed to get the abbreviated lunch on #30, but certain crews seem to think it's not worth it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

chrsjrcj said:


> When I rode the CL before the change, lunch was not offered. We were about 30 minutes late ariving DC too.
> 
> I do not know how that works with the new menu.


Over the years I've been on the Capitol when they served lunch, served express lunch, served "brunch" (breakfast options as well as burger and veggie burger available until Harpers Ferry, eat one meal if you wake up late, eat 2 if you wake up early), served "brunch" that was just breakfast options but same rules applied (eat twice if you want to), and seen the diner close after normal breakfast hours.


----------



## Manny T

Amtrak says contemporary dining will save $4 mil on F&B annually.

Inspector General's report (2011) said waste, fraud and theft in food and beverage services costs Amtrak an estimated $4-7 mil a year.

Why doesn't Amtrak eliminate waste, fraud and theft instead of hot meals?


----------



## cpotisch

Manny T said:


> Amtrak says contemporary dining will save $4 mil on F&B annually.


$3.4M. While it's not as simple as to just stop fraud, waste, and theft, I agree that they should target the issues that keep F&B from turning a profit, rather than F&B itself.


----------



## fulham

Here is a question about the new food service on the Capitol Limited.

The last time I rode (about a year ago), the lower level of the SSL was closed off and all passengers (coach and sleeper) purchased cafe food in the cafe upper level of a Cross Country Cafe (CCC) car. The other half of this car served as the diner (CCC's are ex-diners). I hears this was done to eliminate having to staff the lower level of the SSL with an LSA. Now with the CCC acting as the "first class diner/lounge" and only being staffed with one attendant, and only to be used by sleeper passengers, will Amtrak reopen the lower level of the SSL and use that as the cafe for the whole train? There seems to be more room in the lower level cafe service level and more food options available for purchase.

In my opinion this would be a smart move and allow coach (and sleeper passengers) more variety in what they can purchase from the cafe.


----------



## cpotisch

fulham said:


> Here is a question about the new food service on the Capitol Limited.
> 
> The last time I rode (about a year ago), the lower level of the SSL was closed off and all passengers (coach and sleeper) purchased cafe food in the cafe upper level of a Cross Country Cafe (CCC) car. The other half of this car served as the diner (CCC's are ex-diners). I hears this was done to eliminate having to staff the lower level of the SSL with an LSA. Now with the CCC acting as the "first class diner/lounge" and only being staffed with one attendant, and only to be used by sleeper passengers, will Amtrak reopen the lower level of the SSL and use that as the cafe for the whole train? There seems to be more room in the lower level cafe service level and more food options available for purchase.
> 
> In my opinion this would be a smart move and allow coach (and sleeper passengers) more variety in what they can purchase from the cafe.


There has been talk about this before on this thread. I feel like they should have the entire CCC exclusive to sleeper passengers, since that would make it a more private experience for sleeper passengers, and maybe they could serve the drinks out of the cafe end (make it a sort of bar area). However since the whole point of this change was to cut back on staff, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose to keep the snack service the way it is, even if it means overworking the LSA even more and making the experience worse for sleeper pax.


----------



## Steve4031

Well March was my last ride on the Capitol limited. And the lsl was some time ago. I will fly to east coast and then ride the silver meteor if I want to railfan on the east coast.

Glad I live in Chicago. I'll stick to the west coast with good food service.


----------



## lordsigma

Creates a tough situation for those of us (like me) where one of the reasons we ride Amtrak is because we despise or have a fear of flying and don’t want to drive the distance.


----------



## wi-smb

cpotisch said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak says contemporary dining will save $4 mil on F&B annually.
> 
> 
> 
> $3.4M. While it's not as simple as to just stop fraud, waste, and theft, I agree that they should target the issues that keep F&B from turning a profit, rather than F&B itself.
Click to expand...

I suspect you both mean like offering contemporary operating procedures and inventory controls (ie going cashless for all services and implementing point-of-service terminals for the café and diner). Yeah, Im all for that!


----------



## diesteldorf

I know I may have to wait a few days until more people have a chance to write reviews and post pictures, but does anyone know if you are offered a complimentary drink for lunch as well as dinner?

If one elects to take the alcoholic drink, would they still be entitled to unlimited soft beverages as well?

I'll be curious to know how they handle the unlimited soft beverages without overwhelming the SCA. Will the beverages be available in the lounge just for the taking? I know it's unrealistic that they will be able to have the refrigeration space to ensure beverages are chilled, but will they at least be more liberal with making ice available to passengers that request it?

I enjoy wine, but am also glad to see that bottled water and La Croix will also be available.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It's advertised as unlimited soft drinks throughout the trip and your "first" alcahol drink is free. Meaning you don't have to have it with a meal.

Now how this is handled from crew to crew remains anyone's guess. On some trains the SCA will make you go to the LSA. Others the LSA will make you ask your SCA, and still others may claim "unlimited" only means 2 per Journey.


----------



## dogbert617

lordsigma said:


> Creates a tough situation for those of us (like me) where one of the reasons we ride Amtrak is because we despise or have a fear of flying and don’t want to drive the distance.


I'll still ride Amtrak even on those long distance routes that have downgraded food service, but just won't bother upgrading to a sleeper on those trains like I would've done in the past. For me(and unfortunately), there are a bunch of Amtrak lines I'd like to ride at least once, including ones(sigh) with downgraded food service. I just hope they don't downgrade more Amtrak long distance routes, with downgraded food service. Am very scared that might happen one day, but hope my fear is proven wrong.


----------



## cocojacoby

PVD said:


> Car has coffee, cranberry juice, and extra water bottles out at coffee station.


On my last trip on the Meteor, they stopped the cranberry juice and only had an orange juice box like you get at the dollar store. A few years ago they had both.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Well March was my last ride on the Capitol limited. And the lsl was some time ago. I will fly to east coast and then ride the silver meteor if I want to railfan on the east coast.
> 
> Glad I live in Chicago. I'll stick to the west coast with good food service.


For the time being, until things are “improved” out west too? [emoji57]


----------



## Steve4031

jis said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well March was my last ride on the Capitol limited. And the lsl was some time ago. I will fly to east coast and then ride the silver meteor if I want to railfan on the east coast.
> 
> Glad I live in Chicago. I'll stick to the west coast with good food service.
> 
> 
> 
> For the time being, until things are “improved” out west too? [emoji57]
Click to expand...

Well maybe I will start on being like you and getting a million miles on united as I explore other parts of the world.


----------



## Lonestar648

I am holding off scheduling on the CL or the LSL until the dust settles on this new Contemporary Dining. Hopefully the meals improve along with the service. I have reason's to travel to WAS and ORL but have let people know I will come, but it will be late this year or early next.


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Car has coffee, cranberry juice, and extra water bottles out at coffee station.
> 
> 
> 
> On my last trip on the Meteor, they stopped the cranberry juice and only had an orange juice box like you get at the dollar store. A few years ago they had both.
Click to expand...

Almost every time I've taken the Meteor, there's been cranberry, apple, and orange juice throughout the whole trip. Same thing when I was on the LSL in February.


----------



## tim49424

Lonestar648 said:


> I am holding off scheduling on the CL or the LSL until the dust settles on this new Contemporary Dining. Hopefully the meals improve along with the service.


Same here. I usually form my opinion on my own experience.


----------



## twropr

New CAF diners Nashville, Providence and Harrisburg have been sighted on the LAKE SHORE LIMITED. All the Media Relations spokesman would tell me is that "these cars are supporting modernized service on the Lake Shore Limited." I will look forward to hearing from someone who has ridden the train as to what that means and how the new cars are being used.

Andy


----------



## cpotisch

twropr said:


> New CAF diners Nashville, Providence and Harrisburg have been sighted on the LAKE SHORE LIMITED. All the Media Relations spokesman would tell me is that "these cars are supporting modernized service on the Lake Shore Limited." I will look forward to hearing from someone who has ridden the train as to what that means and how the new cars are being used.
> 
> Andy


They are operating as the Sleeper Lounges. The Media Relations spokesman was just using stupid marketing terms to make "Fresh Choices" sound like an improvement.


----------



## tommylicious

Was the food kept in the dining car kitchen as best as you can tell, or somewhere else on the train?



PVD said:


> Partially, you were not seated as in the past, you just sat here you wanted. On a crowded train or meal period, I could see that changing. Also, since there are limited options at breakfast, the LSA just brings you a breakfast box. I guess you could say regular or decaf/ tea or juice are options, but I think folks get the message.


----------



## twropr

If I am understanding correctly the "diner" on the LAKE SHORE is lounge for just first class passengers, and coach passengers have no entry?

Andy


----------



## PRR 60

twropr said:


> If I am understanding correctly the "diner" on the LAKE SHORE is lounge for just first class passengers, and coach passengers have no entry?
> 
> Andy


Correct.


----------



## PVD

Food was kept in the kitchen. At this point it was sleeper passengers only, I was only on for breakfast, I can not speak to the other meal periods. At this point in time I don't think they have a system in place to sell unused packages to coach or BC passengers. That has been speculated upon, but I've tried to keep my posts on this subject to what I have actually experienced or observed.Since sleeper passengers often walk to the cafe car, nobody paid much attention to the far door, if a non sleeper passenger walked in and was not bothering anybody, and it wasn't crowded, nobody would notice. It isn't like it used to be where the DC crew was setting up the tables for the next meal.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> twropr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I am understanding correctly the "diner" on the LAKE SHORE is lounge for just first class passengers, and coach passengers have no entry?
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.
Click to expand...

Strictly speaking "Sleeper Passengers" Amtrak has generally stopped using the term "First Class" in connection with its Sleeper Service. There still remain some vestiges of its usage, but those are leftovers that someone forgot to remove.

Sleeper Passengers do not get the First Class AGR bonus, They do still get access to lounges. And progressively they get more restricted food service, possibly requiring additional food purchase from the Cafe or bringing their own food on board - e.g. on the Silver Star.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I'm surprised they haven't gotten rid of the lounges and just put a "Priority Line" in the station--sleeper passengers would line up separately from coach and have priority boarding. The lounges are really the only thing left of amenities for sleeper passengers--I wonder how soon they will go.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The lounges are a huge benefit to their FC and AGR status passengers. No way they get rid of them on the Corridor, unless they excluded sleeping car passengers.

The Chicago lounge was just rebuilt and it would be a huge underutilization of space if it was just for Business class passengers. LA is also a nice retreat for BC passengers on the Surfliner.

Maybe the lounge in New Orleans is expendable. But I really wasnt impressed by the NOLA station, so it would be a shame to get rid of it.


----------



## MARC Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> The lounges are a huge benefit to their FC and AGR status passengers. No way they get rid of them on the Corridor, unless they excluded sleeping car passengers.


My experience is that the Acela First Class and AGR status passengers far outnumber the sleeping car passengers. Boston only has one train with sleepers, New York has 5, Philly has 4 and Washington has 5. This compares to the large number of NEC departures, and for that matter, if you have AGR status, they even let you use the lounge if you're waiting for a commuter train. Unlike Washington, the New York Club Acela announces all of the Amtrak trains, even the Regionals and Empire Service. The only time I've ever seen a relatively high proportion of sleeper passengers is in the Washington Club Acela, about 6:30-7 PM waiting to board the Meteor. During the other departure times, they're outnumbered by Corridor passengers. I see no advantage to Amtrak to kick sleeper passengers out of the lounges.


----------



## railiner

So the new "sleeper lounges" are the only Exclusive, non-revenue type cars on the entire system, since the demise of the CS Pacific Parlor Car?

For some people, I suppose that may be a "plus", if the dismal downgrade in meal service were not considered, that is.....


----------



## jis

Yup. My experience in Washington is that there is a spike of Sleeper passengers, just before LD departures, most noticeable are the ones before the Capitol Limited and the Meteor


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

railiner said:


> So the new "sleeper lounges" are the only Exclusive, non-revenue type cars on the entire system, since the demise of the CS Pacific Parlor Car?
> 
> For some people, I suppose that may be a "plus", if the dismal downgrade in meal service were not considered, that is.....


The Sleeper Lounge will sell you alcohol drinks. So limited renenue car.


----------



## railiner

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the new "sleeper lounges" are the only Exclusive, non-revenue type cars on the entire system, since the demise of the CS Pacific Parlor Car?
> 
> For some people, I suppose that may be a "plus", if the dismal downgrade in meal service were not considered, that is.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sleeper Lounge will sell you alcohol drinks. So limited renenue car.
Click to expand...

Okay...but I believe that historically at least, all "feature" cars on a train, where they couldn't sell a berth or a seat, were considered generically as 'non-revenue' in that sense...


----------



## cpotisch

railiner said:


> Okay...but I believe that historically at least, all "feature" cars on a train, where they couldn't sell a berth or a seat, were considered generically as 'non-revenue' in that sense...


In which case you would count the dining cars as non-revenue...


----------



## the_traveler

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the new "sleeper lounges" are the only Exclusive, non-revenue type cars on the entire system, since the demise of the CS Pacific Parlor Car?
> 
> For some people, I suppose that may be a "plus", if the dismal downgrade in meal service were not considered, that is.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sleeper Lounge will sell you alcohol drinks. So limited renenue car.
Click to expand...

Is there an attendant in there?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

chrsjrcj said:


> The lounges are a huge benefit to their FC and AGR status passengers. No way they get rid of them on the Corridor, unless they excluded sleeping car passengers.
> 
> The Chicago lounge was just rebuilt and it would be a huge underutilization of space if it was just for Business class passengers. LA is also a nice retreat for BC passengers on the Surfliner.
> 
> Maybe the lounge in New Orleans is expendable. But I really wasnt impressed by the NOLA station, so it would be a shame to get rid of it.


I perhaps didn't phrase my post well--I wasn't suggesting they get rid of the lounges--I love them! I was just thinking of what Amtrak still had that was nice that they would make sure to get rid of.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

PVD said:


> Food was kept in the kitchen. At this point it was sleeper passengers only, I was only on for breakfast, I can not speak to the other meal periods. At this point in time I don't think they have a system in place to sell unused packages to coach or BC passengers. That has been speculated upon, but I've tried to keep my posts on this subject to what I have actually experienced or observed.Since sleeper passengers often walk to the cafe car, nobody paid much attention to the far door, if a non sleeper passenger walked in and was not bothering anybody, and it wasn't crowded, nobody would notice. It isn't like it used to be where the DC crew was setting up the tables for the next meal.


PVD--Thanks for providing the early information on the food. Have you ever had so many people interested in what you had for a meal?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

the_traveler said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the new "sleeper lounges" are the only Exclusive, non-revenue type cars on the entire system, since the demise of the CS Pacific Parlor Car?
> 
> For some people, I suppose that may be a "plus", if the dismal downgrade in meal service were not considered, that is.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sleeper Lounge will sell you alcohol drinks. So limited renenue car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there an attendant in there?
Click to expand...

There's an LSA assigned to the sleeper lounge.


----------



## Everydaymatters

Curious about how the crew is fed? I'm thinking their meals probably come from the cafe. I mean, how much of the same thing can they take, trip after trip.


----------



## cpotisch

Everydaymatters said:


> Curious about how the crew is fed? I'm thinking their meals probably come from the cafe. I mean, how much of the same thing can they take, trip after trip.


To a certain extent, they have the same problem already. I think that these “contemporary” meals are probably healthier and of higher quality than the offerings in the snack car, so are probably a more “sustainable” choice if you’re working in the train for a long time. And for lunch/dinner, there are a similar number of entrees as was previously offered. And many people already order the same thing every day, so I would be surprised if they’d feel any more of a need to get meals from the snack car, than on trains with full meal service.


----------



## Ryan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> The lounges are really the only thing left of amenities for sleeper passengers--I wonder how soon they will go.


Well that and the whole "private room" and "bed" thing.


----------



## pennyk

Everydaymatters said:


> Curious about how the crew is fed? I'm thinking their meals probably come from the cafe. I mean, how much of the same thing can they take, trip after trip.


From what I understand, on the Silver Meteor, the crew receives dining car meals, although some bring their own food since they get tired of the those meals. Whereas, on the Silver Star, the crew is not provided meals. If they want to eat cafe car food, they pay for it. From what I understand, most bring their own food. Maybe the crew on the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited would have a similar option as the Silver Meteor and have the option for boxed meals (without the alcohol, of course).


----------



## railiner

Don't know about how things are today, but years ago, the chef prepared some 'not-on-the-menu' items for crewmembers...

Amtrak problem frowned on this, but it went on anyway, IIRC....


----------



## bretton88

It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.


----------



## me_little_me

tricia said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The muffin was pretty large, and it was a 7oz yogurt not a smaller one. If you ate the whole box of food it is doubtful (based on the product assortment and nutrition breakdown) that you would still be hungry. Whether or not people will want to eat that particular assortment completely is an entirely different matter.
> 
> 
> 
> On the eastbound Capitol Ltd (perhaps should be re-named the Capital Limited?), the problem is that blood sugar will peak and crash after a sugar-and-starch-heavy breakfast long before the scheduled early-afternoon arrival time in DC. And the actual arrival time is often later.
Click to expand...

Breakfast is a diabetic's nightmare. My blood sugar went up 500 points just reading about it. They should include a vial of insulin with the meal.


----------



## ainamkartma

bretton88 said:


> It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.


Why do I have this sudden curiosity to see your tax returns, and specifically your W-2 form, and specifically the identity of your employer? What could possibly have caused such an irrational urge?

Ainamkartma


----------



## Chey

me_little_me said:


> Breakfast is a diabetic's nightmare. My blood sugar went up 500 points just reading about it. They should include a vial of insulin with the meal.


I guess it depends on the kind of yogurt, The previous menu was also a disaster for diabetics, unless the diabetic understood what they could eat and what they needed to leave alone.

I remember having the divine French toast once, in my roomette, and taking hours to eat it in an attempt not to get sick. That strategy worked (as far as my not getting sick, my blood sugar was another story). But the 'healthy' offering of yogurt, fruit and granola was even more disastrous than the French toast. Some diabetics can handle egg yolks - I'm not one of them.

YMMV. That is the bottom line for me. Vegetarians and Vegans know exactly what they can eat. it's never been clear for diabetics.


----------



## bretton88

ainamkartma said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I have this sudden curiosity to see your tax returns, and specifically your W-2 form, and specifically the identity of your employer? What could possibly have caused such an irrational urge?
> 
> Ainamkartma
Click to expand...

I am not involved in the railroad/train industry in any way. I have just simply taken trains around the globe, and yes I have taken many Amtrak routes in sleeper and in coach. The concept of the dining car with its traditional seating times is dying. OBB nightjet (IMO a gold standard for traditional night trains right now) now allows you to order and eat in your room, or go to the dining car at your will. This is not dissimilar to what Amtrak is doing here. My strike against Amtrak here is the food offerings aren't even comparable to OBB's offerings. Hot food should always be an option on the menu, Amtrak should at least try offering hot food.


----------



## ainamkartma

bretton88 said:


> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I have this sudden curiosity to see your tax returns, and specifically your W-2 form, and specifically the identity of your employer? What could possibly have caused such an irrational urge?
> 
> Ainamkartma
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not involved in the railroad/train industry in any way. I have just simply taken trains around the globe, and yes I have taken many Amtrak routes in sleeper and in coach. The concept of the dining car with its traditional seating times is dying. OBB nightjet (IMO a gold standard for traditional night trains right now) now allows you to order and eat in your room, or go to the dining car at your will. This is not dissimilar to what Amtrak is doing here. My strike against Amtrak here is the food offerings aren't even comparable to OBB's offerings. Hot food should always be an option on the menu, Amtrak should at least try offering hot food.
Click to expand...

As such an experienced train traveler, you are aware that Amtrak has supported dining in your sleeping car cabin for the last few decades at least, right? You are also aware that Amtrak has "tried offering" hot food in the dining car since 1971, of course.

Nothing left for you to learn about train travel, no sirree. Next you'll be telling us about how these new offerings are "fresh packaged from local offerings, giving the customers new contemporary options."

OK, strike all that. I respect your honestly expressed opinions. Mine are that these changes constitute a major downgrade of services, and that there is no chance of my paying for a long distance trip on Amtrak that lacks actual diner service (hot food served at my table by a waiter). I'd appreciate it if you'd respect my opinions as well, and not tell me how these changes actually constitute some kind of improvement or addition of new service, like the "new" in-room dining that has actually been around since forever.

When you parrot the corporate line of horse hockey, please please don't be surprised if people doubt your motivations.

Ainamkartma


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

Train_Freak said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7739.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7750.jpg
> I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.
Click to expand...

Interesting name since Amtrak has not served Nashville since 1979 prior to Viewliner or Superliner.


----------



## Lonestar648

SO if the future is Lounge car status for Sleeper Passengers so they can relax with a drink or a glass of wine, maybe conversing with other status passengers. More and more people prefer privacy to meeting people from around the world, so having the Room Service regular Option makes sense. But the food itself does not equate to the inferred level by having a Sleeper Lounge Car. Sadly, the dinner and breakfast being served since the 1st are a major discouragement to continuing to travel on the CL and LSL.


----------



## bretton88

ainamkartma said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I have this sudden curiosity to see your tax returns, and specifically your W-2 form, and specifically the identity of your employer? What could possibly have caused such an irrational urge?
> 
> Ainamkartma
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not involved in the railroad/train industry in any way. I have just simply taken trains around the globe, and yes I have taken many Amtrak routes in sleeper and in coach. The concept of the dining car with its traditional seating times is dying. OBB nightjet (IMO a gold standard for traditional night trains right now) now allows you to order and eat in your room, or go to the dining car at your will. This is not dissimilar to what Amtrak is doing here. My strike against Amtrak here is the food offerings aren't even comparable to OBB's offerings. Hot food should always be an option on the menu, Amtrak should at least try offering hot food.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As such an experienced train traveler, you are aware that Amtrak has supported dining in your sleeping car cabin for the last few decades at least, right? You are also aware that Amtrak has "tried offering" hot food in the dining car since 1971, of course.
> 
> Nothing left for you to learn about train travel, no sirree. Next you'll be telling us about how these new offerings are "fresh packaged from local offerings, giving the customers new contemporary options."
> 
> OK, strike all that. I respect your honestly expressed opinions. Mine are that these changes constitute a major downgrade of services, and that there is no chance of my paying for a long distance trip on Amtrak that lacks actual diner service (hot food served at my table by a waiter). I'd appreciate it if you'd respect my opinions as well, and not tell me how these changes actually constitute some kind of improvement or addition of new service, like the "new" in-room dining that has actually been around since forever.
> 
> When you parrot the corporate line of horse hockey, please please don't be surprised if people doubt your motivations.
> 
> Ainamkartma
Click to expand...

I have repeatedly said I think the food needs work. Amtrak is upgrading the amenities and undermining it with a poor food selection. I am not defending the food at it's current state. I also believe it's a fixable problem.


----------



## wi-smb

bretton88 said:


> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ainamkartma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like Amtrak is onto a good idea here, having an exclusive sleeper lounge is a nice perk, especially if Amtrak gets the wifi going consistently. The unlimited soft drinks are an upgrade, and having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards (OBB who provides a majority of sleeper service in Europe just rolled that option out for passengers as well). Amtrak just needs to work on the food offerings, which is something Anderson told the RPA they are working on, just a matter of working on their catering contracts. I think this concept might work.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I have this sudden curiosity to see your tax returns, and specifically your W-2 form, and specifically the identity of your employer? What could possibly have caused such an irrational urge?
> 
> Ainamkartma
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not involved in the railroad/train industry in any way. I have just simply taken trains around the globe, and yes I have taken many Amtrak routes in sleeper and in coach. The concept of the dining car with its traditional seating times is dying. OBB nightjet (IMO a gold standard for traditional night trains right now) now allows you to order and eat in your room, or go to the dining car at your will. This is not dissimilar to what Amtrak is doing here. My strike against Amtrak here is the food offerings aren't even comparable to OBB's offerings. Hot food should always be an option on the menu, Amtrak should at least try offering hot food.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As such an experienced train traveler, you are aware that Amtrak has supported dining in your sleeping car cabin for the last few decades at least, right? You are also aware that Amtrak has "tried offering" hot food in the dining car since 1971, of course.
> 
> Nothing left for you to learn about train travel, no sirree. Next you'll be telling us about how these new offerings are "fresh packaged from local offerings, giving the customers new contemporary options."
> 
> OK, strike all that. I respect your honestly expressed opinions. Mine are that these changes constitute a major downgrade of services, and that there is no chance of my paying for a long distance trip on Amtrak that lacks actual diner service (hot food served at my table by a waiter). I'd appreciate it if you'd respect my opinions as well, and not tell me how these changes actually constitute some kind of improvement or addition of new service, like the "new" in-room dining that has actually been around since forever.
> 
> When you parrot the corporate line of horse hockey, please please don't be surprised if people doubt your motivations.
> 
> Ainamkartma
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have repeatedly said I think the food needs work. Amtrak is upgrading the amenities and undermining it with a poor food selection. I am not defending the food at it's current state. I also believe it's a fixable problem.
Click to expand...

I dont think arguing with someone who wants to go back to dining cars with tuxedoed servers serving on China is worth your breath. In fact, watching Pauls Trip Reports on ÖBBs NightJet service is whats given me the pause to rethink my original thoughts on the whole change.

That said, Ill start a new thread later today when I take the Capitol Limited out of CHI.


----------



## PVD

I'm a half hour from dropping my bags at the ML in Chicago to head for Colorado. I'll be on the CL on Sunday, anxiously awaiting your observations, on dinner, I only saw breakfast on the LSL the other day.


----------



## Manny T

cpotisch said:


> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Curious about how the crew is fed? I'm thinking their meals probably come from the cafe. I mean, how much of the same thing can they take, trip after trip.
> 
> 
> 
> To a certain extent, they have the same problem already. I think that these “contemporary” meals are probably healthier and of higher quality than the offerings in the snack car, so are probably a more “sustainable” choice if you’re working in the train for a long time. And for lunch/dinner, there are a similar number of entrees as was previously offered. And many people already order the same thing every day, so I would be surprised if they’d feel any more of a need to get meals from the snack car, than on trains with full meal service.
Click to expand...

So I'm looking at this photo of one of the new "contemporary meals," and checking it against my attempt at a healthy, low sodium diet, and this is what I see:

https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639

Top row (l to r): marinated artichoke hearts (salt), olives (high salt), cornichons (more salt), mozarella balls (high cholesterol, salt), "Sea Salt Carmel (sugar AND salt).

Bottom row (l to r): processed turkey (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates), processed cheese (high sodium, chemicals), processed meat (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates); boxed item--not sure what's inside, probably starch and salt.

So if anyone can make the case that this "meal" is "healthy," especially when eaten repeatedly, I would be much obliged and very reassured.


----------



## me_little_me

Manny T said:


> So I'm looking at this photo of one of the new "contemporary meals," and checking it against my attempt at a healthy, low sodium diet, and this is what I see:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639
> 
> Top row (l to r): marinated artichoke hearts (salt), olives (high salt), cornichons (more salt), mozarella balls (high cholesterol, salt), "Sea Salt Carmel (sugar AND salt).
> 
> Bottom row (l to r): processed turkey (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates), processed cheese (high sodium, chemicals), processed meat (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates); boxed item--not sure what's inside, probably starch and salt.
> 
> So if anyone can make the case that this "meal" is "healthy," especially when eaten repeatedly, I would be much obliged and very reassured.


Aren't the four major FDA food groups processed food, salt, sugar and chocolate?


----------



## TinCan782

Manny T said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Curious about how the crew is fed? I'm thinking their meals probably come from the cafe. I mean, how much of the same thing can they take, trip after trip.
> 
> 
> 
> To a certain extent, they have the same problem already. I think that these “contemporary” meals are probably healthier and of higher quality than the offerings in the snack car, so are probably a more “sustainable” choice if you’re working in the train for a long time. And for lunch/dinner, there are a similar number of entrees as was previously offered. And many people already order the same thing every day, so I would be surprised if they’d feel any more of a need to get meals from the snack car, than on trains with full meal service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So I'm looking at this photo of one of the new "contemporary meals," and checking it against my attempt at a healthy, low sodium diet, and this is what I see:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/esparail/posts/1823865014326639
> 
> Top row (l to r): marinated artichoke hearts (salt), olives (high salt), cornichons (more salt), mozarella balls (high cholesterol, salt), "Sea Salt Carmel (sugar AND salt).
> 
> Bottom row (l to r): processed turkey (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates), processed cheese (high sodium, chemicals), processed meat (very high sodium, chemicals, nitrates); boxed item--not sure what's inside, probably starch and salt.
> 
> So if anyone can make the case that this "meal" is "healthy," especially when eaten repeatedly, I would be much obliged and very reassured.
Click to expand...

Antipasto Plate
"A combination of prosciutto, soppressata and smoked turkey accompanied by assorted cheeses, marinated vegetables, olives, tangy pickles and crisp Italian bread sticks. Served with a cannellini bean salad and salted caramel cheese cake."
The boxed item you mention would be the cannellini bean salad.


----------



## Manny T

Thank you -- so we've unmasked the boxed item.

Where I come from, an "antipasto" like that would be served as an appetizer (I think that's what "antipasto" means), for 4-6 people, who would pick out a few items gingerly, and then proceed to their entrees--salad, salmon, or pasta, something sensible. To eat THAT mess as a dinner, not so much.

MeLittleMe--I don't see the chocolate anywhere. Drat!


----------



## TiBike

Nobody's forcing you to eat antipasto for dinner. There are other choices.

On the other hand, if you eat dinner before you get on the train, and want a snack to go with your evening cocktail, it might be a fine choice. Maybe no one will choose it and Amtrak will replace it with something else. Maybe it'll be the most popular food ever offered on Amtrak. Even if you never eat it.

Lighten up.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Considering the menu is only limited to Sleeping car passengers, something tells me the crew only has access to the cafe car (or a hot dog stand at a station).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TiBike said:


> Nobody's forcing you to eat antipasto for dinner. There are other choices.
> 
> On the other hand, if you eat dinner before you get on the train, and want a snack to go with your evening cocktail, it might be a fine choice. Maybe no one will choose it and Amtrak will replace it with something else. Maybe it'll be the most popular food ever offered on Amtrak. Even if you never eat it.
> 
> Lighten up.


It would also be nice for 2 people to order a salad and the antipasto plate for a meal. That would be a pretty good selection of food to mix and match for a meal.

I'm still trying to figure out which lunch / dinner entrees were that much better than the current offerings? The breakfast is def. a downgrade but the lunch and dinner options seem fine to me. That Amtrak burger and potato chips was fine but nothing to start a petition over! Ha.


----------



## jis

Looks like the Lake Shore and the Capitol will get a hot meal option in their menus afterall....

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-amtrak-plans-to-return-hot-meal-option-to-two-trains

https://www.railwayage.com/news/twu-to-anderson-stop-these-cuts/

Maybe everyone giving a strong feedback regarding an hot Egg item for Breakfast will bear some fruit too. Who knows? No harm in trying.


----------



## Maglev

jis said:


> Looks like the Lake Shore and the Capitol will get a hot meal option in their menus afterall....
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-amtrak-plans-to-return-hot-meal-option-to-two-trains


Some protein for breakfast might be nice!

(Sorry for not following this thread closely if this has been posted...) but what happened to the "Amenity Kits?"


----------



## Steve4031

Hopefully they don’t screw up with. Bunch of peppers or something else. KISS. Keep it simple stupid.


----------



## CHamilton

jis said:


> Maybe everyone giving a strong feedback regarding an hot Egg item for Breakfast will bear some fruit too.


I think they're offering fruit now.


----------



## jis

CHamilton said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe everyone giving a strong feedback regarding an hot Egg item for Breakfast will bear some fruit too.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they're offering fruit now.
Click to expand...

Actually I have no problem personally with what they are offering for breakfast since it resembles what I eat anyway, when I am not having an Egg breakfast. I just think there are a lot of people that like to have some eggs and some meat for breakfast.


----------



## Shortline

Haven't been on either train yet since this started, but I kinda dig it. Would rather have a lighter option in room, vs the standard heavy meal on this short train. Makes sense to me. Typically for an evening departure I've already eaten better before getting on board, and skip dinner anyway, and a light snack/light breakfast works well for me. I was never a big fan of the recent (last 20 years or so) dining car meals anyway. Of course, others disagree, and that's fine, just please don't lump everyone into your basket, some of us just might prefer this to the standard amchow.


----------



## TinCan782

From the Railway Age article:

_“A hot meal option will be coming at a future date as we are gathering feedback from our customers to understand preferences.”_

I like how they will be offering something in the future that they just took away!


----------



## jis

FrensicPic said:


> From the Railway Age article:
> 
> _“A hot meal option will be coming at a future date as we are gathering feedback from our customers to understand preferences.”_
> 
> I like how they will be offering something in the future that they just took away!


Hey it is better to get back what was taken away, than not to get it back.


----------



## dlagrua

jis said:


> Looks like the Lake Shore and the Capitol will get a hot meal option in their menus afterall....
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-amtrak-plans-to-return-hot-meal-option-to-two-trains
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/news/twu-to-anderson-stop-these-cuts/
> 
> Maybe everyone giving a strong feedback regarding an hot Egg item for Breakfast will bear some fruit too. Who knows? No harm in trying.


Yes people write and don't be lazy.

*Amtrak Customer Relations*

*1 Massachusetts Ave*

*Washington, DC 20001*

Let your voice be heard. My voice is that Amtrak is no longer a travel option for expecting us to eat that cheap crap for dinner that you can buy at WaWa for $4.00. For the first leg of our typical $1000-$1500 overnight trip (that's a one way number) we deserve better and on the highway we will get it. We are also very disturbed seeing good hard working people lose their jobs. I was told that job cuts are coming by Amtrak employees.. What's needed is a massive strike to shut down the system until things are returned to normal!! We need everyone walking out. That would send a strong message to a congress that eats great hot meals at the taxpayer expense in the congressional dining room and to a president that eats gourmet meals every night.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

When travel coach on the Lake Shore Limited, I have always eat in the dinning car. Yes it nose bleed price, but its better than anything in the cafe car. 47% of the meals provide in 2011 was to Coach passengers. Of course that was back when the price of the meal was more economic.

Love how we pick and choose the way to argue the facts.

Historically Dinning Service them be fighting words now.


----------



## wi-smb

I just departed on the CL out of Chicago. There were not one, but two amenity kits in my roomette. Ill comment on the chilled beef entree and add pictures once I eat.

The amenity kits contain: a mending kit, shower cap, shampoo, body wash, soap, conditioner, body lotion, and a beauty kit (I didnt open this, but my guess is inside youll find cloths for makeup removal).

You can see pics of the amenity kits here: https://www.facebook.com/sean.bossinger/posts/10160750131275160


----------



## cpotisch

bretton88 said:


> having food in your room is something that international trains are going towards


Room service has been an option all along. They're just pushing it more with the new system.


----------



## cpotisch

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Interesting name since Amtrak has not served Nashville since 1979 prior to Viewliner or Superliner.


If memory serves, Amtrak trains also don't serve Annapolis, Augusta, Columbus, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Montgomery, or Tallahassee. They just picked state capitals on the east side of the US.


----------



## neroden

dlagrua said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the Lake Shore and the Capitol will get a hot meal option in their menus afterall....
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-amtrak-plans-to-return-hot-meal-option-to-two-trains
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/news/twu-to-anderson-stop-these-cuts/
> 
> Maybe everyone giving a strong feedback regarding an hot Egg item for Breakfast will bear some fruit too. Who knows? No harm in trying.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes people write and don't be lazy.
> 
> *Amtrak Customer Relations*
> 
> *1 Massachusetts Ave*
> 
> *Washington, DC 20001*
> 
> Let your voice be heard. My voice is that Amtrak is no longer a travel option for expecting us to eat that cheap crap for dinner that you can buy at WaWa for $4.00. For the first leg of our typical $1000-$1500 overnight trip (that's a one way number) we deserve better and on the highway we will get it. We are also very disturbed seeing good hard working people lose their jobs. I was told that job cuts are coming by Amtrak employees.. What's needed is a massive strike to shut down the system until things are returned to normal!! We need everyone walking out. That would send a strong message to a congress that eats great hot meals at the taxpayer expense in the congressional dining room and to a president that eats gourmet meals every night.
Click to expand...

I'm not even going to screw around with "Amtrak Customer Relations". I don't have time to compose a letter right now, but this is going directly to Coscia, with a Cc: to Anderson. Certified.

Since Amtrak is now lying again by claiming that "These food service cars were infrequently used by coach customers" (47% of service on the LSL was to coach passengers in 2011, as Amtrak documented), I'm going to tell Coscia that his CEO is lying to the general public, and request that he perform more oversight.

In addition, I'll point out that the ingredients are not yet available before boarding, meaning that my ADA complaint from earlier has not been addressed.

And then I'll ask for some cold hard-boiled eggs.


----------



## wi-smb

So, continuing my update from the eastbound CL:

You can see meal pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/sean.bossinger/posts/10160750131275160

The crew seemed disjointed, as if there were no process in place for the new meal service. I got my dinner, originally scheduled for 7:30, at 8:15. It took the crew some time to sort out the meal slips. All SCAs were on hand in the Sleeper Lounge (a diner pushed into service for this purpose) to sort out a messy situation (wrong car numbers, wrong room numbers, etc. - written by the SCAs, which drove the LSA running the Sleeper Lounge frigging nuts).

I had the chilled beef tenderloin salad. It was delicious, and filling. I chose to not eat the fingerling potato salad; maybe Ill try it for the trip back to Chicago. It was still high on the sodium count, but Ill chalk most of that up to the dressing, so, you *can* adjust your intake.

I ate the sea salt caramel cheesecake in a jar (glass, yes, fancy). It, too, was delicious. It was one of the best desserts Ive had anywhere, actually.

This was the first time this crew has used the new system. It was clear that there didnt appear to be any training for it, and that much of the figuring out how to run the program was left up to individual crews (which is how you get into situations where you cant rely on data later on). I cut them some slack.

That said, my SCA indicated that of 31 sleeper passengers to depart Chicago today in his car, only 8 showed up. He thinks its a direct result of this program.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Both the Zephyr and Builder were late enough to miss the connection with the Cap, so I suspect that explains some of the missing passengers.

In any case, thank you for the report.

The dessert sounds like the biggest win out of this. Looks quite good in the pictures.


----------



## niemi24s

Breakfast on the Westbound CL out of Pittsburgh Tuesday morning consisted of juice, a kit of pretzels, cookies, dried fruit and a warm breakfast sandwich _similar_ to a McDonald's egg & sausage McMuffin. But as this particular train originated in Pittsburgh after a bus ride from Washington DC (due to storm debris blocking the track East of Pittsburgh) I don't know if this is the new standard breakfast - and I was too tired to think of asking.

As the train was over 4 hours late, at some stop a few hours from Chicago, sleeper pax were served McChickens that had been brought aboard for lunch.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

wi-smb said:


> I had the chilled beef tenderloin salad. It was delicious, and filling. I ate the sea salt caramel cheesecake in a jar (glass, yes, fancy). It, too, was delicious. It was one of the best desserts Ive had anywhere, actually.


↑ This honestly doesn't look that bad to me at first glance. It certainly looks a lot better than the "premium" sleeper sandwich served to me on the ex-SEA PPC. ↓




That being said, these new meals honestly look like the sort of compact prepackaged refrigerator boxes that should be found in the cafe car rather than served as a premium sleeper entree in a private kitchen lounge car. Lack of any hot meal options, an extremely limited selection for people with picky palates and/or specific dietary needs, and lack of a fare discount to reflect the reduction in labor are the primary negatives IMO.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Breakfast on the Westbound CL out of Pittsburgh Tuesday morning consisted of juice, a kit of pretzels, cookies, dried fruit and a warm breakfast sandwich _similar_ to a McDonald's egg & sausage McMuffin. But as this particular train originated in Pittsburgh after a bus ride from Washington DC (due to storm debris blocking the track East of Pittsburgh) I don't know if this is the new standard breakfast - and I was too tired to think of asking.
> 
> As the train was over 4 hours late, at some stop a few hours from Chicago, sleeper pax were served McChickens that had been brought aboard for lunch.


No, you did not get the standard breakfast. As you said, you were on a truncated CL so they had to do a substitution. The McMuffin should have been your biggest clue.


----------



## dlagrua

When the private railroads wanted out of the passenger rail business, they removed dining car service. Ridership plunged and this enabled them to go to congress with a reason for discontinuance of service. The sleeper passenger who has been steadily saddled with ever rising prices and less amenities will not continue to ride without decent meal service. Wick Moorman was right when he said that its part of the service. Without it many passengers (including us) will stay away. It breaks the NY-CHI and WAS-CHI Amtrak service and you long distance passenger rail will not survive. Perhaps that is the underlying motive. Does anyone at Amtrak have the guts to tell this to congress????.


----------



## wi-smb

Breakfast pics from the CL this morning are posted here: https://www.facebook.com/sean.bossinger/posts/10160750131275160

Essentially, its as has been described before: sugar-laden. Though, with our propensity in the USA to have dessert for breakfast, this isnt surprising.

In the box was a fruit plate (fairly sizable - blackberries, strawberries, pineapple, honeydew, and cantaloupe); yogurt parfait with yogurt, granola, strawberries, and blueberries; banana bread; blueberry muffin; a Kind Dark Chocolate bar; and a Kashi yogurt bar. I ate the fruit plate and yogurt cup, had the Kind bar, a coffee, and was full.

In my discussion with some of the crew, I heard that they do not get food on board - they are given (what sounded to me to be) a per diem. So, they can spend their per diem in the cafe, or bank it and bring their own. They are not allocated boxes. Also, for someone traveling on Amtrak business, they have to pay $40 per boxed meal, but are reimbursed.

All in all, I have to say that the food (dinner and breakfast) was decent. It was tasty, filling, and served beautifully. Yes, it comes in a box; but, having had purchased airline snacks, theres really no comparison size-wise: Amtraks boxed meals pack more food.

Would I prefer the diners food? Im equivocal - Id have ranked these meals as right in the middle of my diner experiences. On my last trip on the Texas Eagle (two months ago), I had a crappy steak on the southbound trip, and a perfectly-cooked one on the northbound. The chilled beef tenderloin salad from last night pretty much landed right in the middle of those two - and its way better than some beef and noodle concoction I was served on the Silver Service about 20 years ago, coming out of Miami.


----------



## JoeBas

wi-smb said:


> The chilled beef tenderloin salad from last night pretty much landed right in the middle of those two - and its way better than some beef and noodle concoction I was served on the Silver Service about 20 years ago, coming out of Miami.


That should be the new marketing tagline - "Amtrak - Our food is still better than canned Dinty Moore!!!"


----------



## TinCan782

wi-smb said:


> In my discussion with some of the crew, I heard that they do not get food on board - they are given (what sounded to me to be) a per diem. So, they can spend their per diem in the cafe, or bank it and bring their own. They are not allocated boxes. Also, for someone traveling on Amtrak business, they have to pay *$40 per boxed meal*, but are reimbursed.


"40 per boxed meal"??? Reimbursed or not, what's in that box?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If you were to price out a boxed meal of that quality, add in the delivery fee (commercial driver has to drive a commercial refrigerated truck to the rail yard and have it loaded on the train) plus paying the LSA to "handle" the boxes you would probably end up close to $40 per box.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Yeah, thats pretty interesting. Makes me wonder how much theyre transferring out of the sleeping car account to the dining car, especially with no prices posted on the menu.

Edit: Jeesh, Despite me putting an apostrophe in theyre, it disappears.


----------



## cpotisch

wi-smb said:


> I had the chilled beef tenderloin salad. It was delicious, and filling. I chose to not eat the fingerling potato salad; maybe Ill try it for the trip back to Chicago. It was still high on the sodium count, but Ill chalk most of that up to the dressing, so, you *can* adjust your intake.
> 
> I ate the sea salt caramel cheesecake in a jar (glass, yes, fancy). It, too, was delicious. It was one of the best desserts Ive had anywhere, actually.


Glad to hear that you really liked the food. If I ate meat, it sounds like everything would be great! However I'll have to endure the veggie wrap, which has the "vegan dessert bar" instead. If they offered another vegetarian or pescatarian option, and allowed passengers to pick their dessert, I might be able to handle it. But at this point, I just don't think the selection is even remotely conducive for those with dietary restrictions.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> Edit: Jeesh, Despite me putting an apostrophe in theyre, it disappears.


You have that problem as well? I thought I was the only one! Are you posting from your phone (that's where I usually have the issue)? Usually you just have to wait a couple minutes and edit again.


----------



## chrsjrcj

cpotisch said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Jeesh, Despite me putting an apostrophe in theyre, it disappears.
> 
> 
> 
> You have that problem as well? I thought I was the only one! Are you posting from your phone (that's where I usually have the issue)? Usually you just have to wait a couple minutes and edit again.
Click to expand...

Yup, from my phone. I hate giving off the appearance that my grammar skills are equal to a 2nd grader, when they are closer to a High School freshman


----------



## Manny T

Guest J M posted his first trip report yesterday on AU containing the following description:

"Ate a nice dinner (Land & Sea) in the dining car, seated with a pleasant couple from England who enjoyed chatting. I drank a half bottle, made sure to request my salad and roll which I think the server forgot about, and enjoyed the pecan tart for dessert. My steak was overcooked but I wasn't going to complain, as I know how it's cooked Sous vide first and finished on the grill. 

"Slept about 3-4 hours and then woke up and decided to sit in the seat under my bunk and watch the stations go by. Ate breakfast in the dining car (quesedilla with bacon which was delicious)."

Sad to think this perfect scenario ^ is just nostalgia insofar as the CL and LSL are concerned.


----------



## TiBike

"made sure to request my salad and roll which I think the server forgot about"

"My steak was overcooked"

If this is a perfect diner scenario, then Amtrak has a perfect reason to go with boxed meals.


----------



## RichieRich

Manny T said:


> Sad to think this perfect scenario ^ is just nostalgia insofar as the CL and LSL are concerned.


Add the AT to your list. They got rid of the "Chef" years and years ago. Now (1st Class) is basically cafeteria food...big pots and slop a ladle out on a plastic plate. One big pot of boiling water for the frozen vegetables. As I was crunching the couscous ...someone said:" that's not couscous ...that's raw (crunchy) rice! Salads are all pre-plated, stacked 6 high and saran wrapped together in a big pile...that's why they're always wilted.


----------



## bratkinson

One of my concerns about the 'New Deal' meal is what if they put it on all LD trains?

Of note is that regardless of riding on the LSL or CL, at most, there's only breakfast and one other meal served in each direction. So, a lunch or dinner box – served in opposite directions – can be acceptable to a sleeping car passenger as a 'one time' meal. They've done it for years on the Portland section of the Empire Builder. I rode it 5-6 weeks ago and though I was less than thrilled with the cold beef 'salad', it was nutritionally complete and filling, in my opinion. But that was with full knowledge I'd have the rest of my meals in the dining car, all the way to Chicago. I don't know what the Portland section gets for breakfast, but I assume it's better than what is now on the CL & LSL.

As I said, a one-meal only deal will likely be OK with most passengers who don't mind paying too much for the included meal. But what about western train passengers that get two or three dinners, and a couple of lunches and breakfasts enroute? And pity the cross-country traveller getting the same stuff for yet another day! Granted, the standardized 'national menu' of recent days got tired real quick when I went cross country in April, but at least there were options for varying tastes and dietary limitations. How many would cheerfully take three days of cold food, and pay perhaps thousands for the 'priveledge'?

Perhaps the best solution is to take the free meals out of the sleeper price and go ala carte in the diner like they used to 20 years ago, give or take. Let the passengers 'vote' with their dollars on what they like or dislike.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

bratkinson--

The breakfast that I chose (and you had a choice) on the Portland section of the Empire Builder was a cold ham and cheese sandwich, cut-up fruit, a normal yogurt (not that Greek stuff that we're all supposed to take to immediately because it's "healthier"), and a truly delicious blueberry crumble. Even though it was in a box, it looked and tasted delicious.

I wouldn't object at all if the breakfast quality on the CL and LSL were that good.

(Of course it did not hurt that I got to eat it while riding along a lovely river....



)


----------



## cpotisch

RichieRich said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sad to think this perfect scenario ^ is just nostalgia insofar as the CL and LSL are concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> Add the AT to your list. They got rid of the "Chef" years and years ago. Now (1st Class) is basically cafeteria food...big pots and slop a ladle out on a plastic plate. One big pot of boiling water for the frozen vegetables. As I was crunching the couscous ...someone said:" that's not couscous ...that's raw (crunchy) rice! Salads are all pre-plated, stacked 6 high and saran wrapped together in a big pile...that's why they're always wilted.
Click to expand...

The Auto Train doesn't have full meal service? I would have sworn that it offered meals at least as good as any other Superliner LD train.


----------



## keelhauled

The Auto Train has unique menus for both coach and sleeper passengers. Whether it is all reheated or cooked on board I can't say, although the fact that the beef is specified as "cooked to medium" makes me think the former.


----------



## Skyline

From what I've been reading since late last week, I'd say there are more negatives than positives with the new menu and the execution of a radically new system. I'd like to think we'll look back at June 2018 as a learning experience for both Amtrak and its patrons.

If regular diner service in some format ever returns to the CL and LSL, and this comment would apply to the other LD trains that still have it, mixing in a couple of the better "fresh choices" entrees, sides, and desserts with a more traditional cooked menu might be a good idea. That would possibly save money and certainly time as I'd see some pax preferring these once in awhile (but not always forced to eat cold). Breakfast is the saddest part of the new menu, and I see nothing redeemable there.

If they can bring costs and time-consuming tasks under control without drastically changing the pax experience, this could be a win-win. But forcing the SCA to be wait staff too -- and with little or no training -- is ridiculous both for him or her and the pax. They have plenty of tasks already. Some cover more than one sleeper at least part of a LD trip. And they are now expected to take orders, maneuver food from one or more cars away, serve it politely, clean up all the waste after mealtime? I'd need at least three hands and something medicinally to maintain the necessary energy level. Um, this kind of heavy handed management (Amtrak, Congress) is why unions form and exist.


----------



## cpotisch

I honestly think that they amenities kits, while nice, are more of a gimmick than anything. And it seems like not everyone has received them, which makes me pretty hesitant to rely on getting one. They kits themselves seem nice enough, but I can't say that a 50% chance at an amenity kit even remotely compensates for the very restrictive menu and lack of any hot meals.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> I honestly think that they amenities kits, while nice, are more of a gimmick than anything. And it seems like not everyone has received them, which makes me pretty hesitant to rely on getting one. They kits themselves seem nice enough, but I can't say that a 50% chance at an amenity kit even remotely compensates for the very restrictive menu and lack of any hot meals.


'Tis the free booze, I bet.

More seriously, the menu can and should be improved with the addition of hot item(s) eventually, hopefully.

I am actually hoping that they would move quickly to the order ahead scheme for onboard food delivery. That would make it easier to handle individual dietary restrictions etc. too, provided of course they want to take the trouble to exploit the opportunity presented by such.

Hey! BTW! Welcome back! Good to see you back!


----------



## jebr

The letter to AAPRCO/RPCA indicated that hot food entrees will be an option soon. I'm optimistic, based on what I've seen of the current cold meals (which seem to be of pretty high quality for cold entrees) that a couple of hot options and some more variety (at least if ordered in advance) would allow for an experience that's comparable, if not better in some ways, than the old-school diner service that's currently on most long-distance trains.


----------



## CAQuail

At $40 for a boxed meal I would be expecting something more along these lines

https://www.heathrow.com/file_source/Heathrow/Static/PDF/Shopsandrestaurants/Restaurants/F&M-hamperling-menu-T5.pdf

But then I have expensive tastes.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mystic River Dragon said:


> bratkinson--
> 
> The breakfast that I chose (and you had a choice) on the Portland section of the Empire Builder was a cold ham and cheese sandwich, cut-up fruit, a normal yogurt (not that Greek stuff that we're all supposed to take to immediately because it's "healthier"), and a truly delicious blueberry crumble. Even though it was in a box, it looked and tasted delicious.
> 
> I wouldn't object at all if the breakfast quality on the CL and LSL were that good.
> 
> (Of course it did not hurt that I got to eat it while riding along a lovely river....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


When I rode the empire builder we got the same box you described, but there was no choice. I don't think there is a choice for breakfast?

The pictures of the breakfast box on the capitol and lake shore look higher quality to me. Not saying I'm a fan of either but if I had to choose I would choose the CL/ LSL option.


----------



## FreeskierInVT

crescent-zephyr said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> bratkinson--
> 
> The breakfast that I chose (and you had a choice) on the Portland section of the Empire Builder was a cold ham and cheese sandwich, cut-up fruit, a normal yogurt (not that Greek stuff that we're all supposed to take to immediately because it's "healthier"), and a truly delicious blueberry crumble. Even though it was in a box, it looked and tasted delicious.
> 
> I wouldn't object at all if the breakfast quality on the CL and LSL were that good.
> 
> (Of course it did not hurt that I got to eat it while riding along a lovely river....
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> When I rode the empire builder we got the same box you described, but there was no choice. I don't think there is a choice for breakfast?
> 
> The pictures of the breakfast box on the capitol and lake shore look higher quality to me. Not saying I'm a fan of either but if I had to choose I would choose the CL/ LSL option.
Click to expand...

A few weeks ago I had the option of a "vegetarian" box, or one of two boxes with different cold cuts. I took the "vegetarian" box which had a serving of ham and cheese packaged up, with a croissant, a very small serving of yogurt, a small slice of blueberry crumble and 4 or 5 chunks of fresh fruit. A label on the box marked it with "HAV" and the date, so I'm thinking the box was loaded/made in Havre, MT?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The vegetarian box had a ham and cheese croissant?

The box you described is exactly what I was served years ago when there was no choice.


----------



## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> If you were to price out a boxed meal of that quality, add in the delivery fee (commercial driver has to drive a commercial refrigerated truck to the rail yard and have it loaded on the train) plus paying the LSA to "handle" the boxes you would probably end up close to $40 per box.


Oh, great...the frakkers are probably going to use this transfer to "dress up" the new service financially. I'd pay that for a decent steak dinner in the diner, but the idea of billing that for the breakfast in question is absurd. I'd dare say it borders on fraud even compared to the worst such "games" played with the diners.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Hey! BTW! Welcome back! Good to see you back!


Thank you. Took me a day or so to collect myself and figure out what was really the best choice. Glad to be back, though I guess I was only away for about 20 hours.


----------



## RichieRich

@cpotisch: "The Auto Train doesn't have full meal service? I would have sworn that it offered meals at least as good as any other Superliner LD train."



Has "full meal service", table clothes, waiters...you can see a sample menu on amtrak.com. No charge, included with fare. Just a disconnect between the description and what's dropped on the table in front of you! I always order the "meat by-product" as I refer to it. Comes by many names, but basically - meat-in-a-crock-pot! Didn't used to be that way - they actually cooked many years ago. Breakfast has never changed - they call it "a Continental". I say...continents are getting smaller every year! LOL I don't wake up for cold cereal and pre-packaged bagels/*Croissants* . I lived thru the Great Amtrak Banana Famine!!! Yes, they discontinued bananas for breakfast to save money. (Lasted a few months). They used to serve free wine with dinner too. They "used" to do a LOT of things. But it's not like it's "free"!!! I've spent $3,500 r/t for the two of us. I'm on it A LOT!! The Guest Rewards Card does shoot me an occasional free trip.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> bratkinson--
> 
> The breakfast that I chose (and you had a choice) on the Portland section of the Empire Builder was a cold ham and cheese sandwich, cut-up fruit, a normal yogurt (not that Greek stuff that we're all supposed to take to immediately because it's "healthier"), and a truly delicious blueberry crumble. Even though it was in a box, it looked and tasted delicious.
> 
> I wouldn't object at all if the breakfast quality on the CL and LSL were that good.
> 
> (Of course it did not hurt that I got to eat it while riding along a lovely river....
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> When I rode the empire builder we got the same box you described, but there was no choice. I don't think there is a choice for breakfast?
> 
> The pictures of the breakfast box on the capitol and lake shore look higher quality to me. Not saying I'm a fan of either but if I had to choose I would choose the CL/ LSL option.
Click to expand...

The difference is that the EB breakfast had protein (ham and cheese, even if no egg), which is, in my mind, crucial in a breakfast.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Im in the "at least put some hard boiled eggs in that box" camp, but that ham and cheese croissant probably has less protein then a be kind bar. Neither really counts as a "full" breakfast in my mind.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Truck stops sell hard boiled eggs. You can get a cup of eggs from a much larger jar, prepared by local staff. Or you can find a two pack of eggs. The two pack is packaged at the factory, self ready product.

Multi option, you just need the will to do so.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> If you were to price out a boxed meal of that quality, add in the delivery fee (commercial driver has to drive a commercial refrigerated truck to the rail yard and have it loaded on the train) plus paying the LSA to "handle" the boxes you would probably end up close to $40 per box.


No way! My guess the price includes the amenity kit, one free alcohol, unlimited soft drinks, etc as it would be a big effort to figure out who in the sleepers is not entitled to the other things.

Sore, it would be expensive to drive a meal over to the train but that's not what happens. They drive all the meals to the train so the cost is spread over all of them. And if Amtrak can obtain, load, store, cook and serve a steak dinner for less than the cost of one boxed meal, then they need to rethink their concept of saving money. So it has to be more than just a meal.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

They can't serve a steak dinner for the price posted on the menu, that's why we are in this situation.

No one seems to understand that things cost money. Call a catering company and get some prices for box lunches with these types of items. It won't be cheap.

The catering company has to have a commercial kitchen and commisary, which they pay rent, insurrance etc. On. They have to pay people to prepare the food and assemble the boxes. They have to own a cdl certified refrigerated truck and pay a cdl driver to make the delivery to the Amtrak train (that's a major expense vs. a restaurant that can have 1 or 2 deliveries per week, each amtrak train has to be delivered to on a daily basis), and then Amtrak needs to cover the cost of having an LSA handle the food on board. Oh yeah, and then there is that actual cost of the food and packaging, which is a tiny fraction of the cost. and sure throw in a can of Pepsi while you're at it. I can easily see how that approaches $40 per box. What is your estimation for those expenses?


----------



## dlagrua

crescent-zephyr said:


> They can't serve a steak dinner for the price posted on the menu, that's why we are in this situation.
> 
> No one seems to understand that things cost money. Call a catering company and get some prices for box lunches with these types of items. It won't be cheap.
> 
> The catering company has to have a commercial kitchen and commissary, which they pay rent, insurance etc. On. They have to pay people to prepare the food and assemble the boxes. They have to own a cdl certified refrigerated truck and pay a cdl driver to make the delivery to the Amtrak train (that's a major expense vs. a restaurant that can have 1 or 2 deliveries per week, each amtrak train has to be delivered to on a daily basis), and then Amtrak needs to cover the cost of having an LSA handle the food on board. Oh yeah, and then there is that actual cost of the food and packaging, which is a tiny fraction of the cost. and sure throw in a can of Pepsi while you're at it. I can easily see how that approaches $40 per box. What is your estimation for those expenses?


As you pointed out, a labor factor has to be included in the cost of a high salt box lunch The catering company has to buy, inventory, pack and deliver all the items in a package.in a refrigerated truck. Then they must be loaded on the train, distributed and someone must then take out the garbage. The dining car becomes the lounge so where is the terrific savings that will bring the cars to profitability? Amtrak just gets to reassign and/or put 3 or 4 people out on the street and that's about it..


----------



## Thirdrail7

dlagrua said:


> The dining car becomes the lounge so where is the terrific savings that will bring the cars to profitability? Amtrak just gets to reassign and/or put 3 or 4 people out on the street and that's about it..


That is nothing to sneeze at when you look at the cost of those three or four people....per train...per trip. It is a savings or redirecting of their salaries, benefits, training and lodging costs. Additionally, a lot of the costs are now borne by the catering company.


----------



## Lonestar648

Looks like a cost shuffling by the accounting staff from F&B to Revenue Sleeper Costs. So if the meals are $40 per person maybe the Sleeper is adding as much as $1600, maybe more to the operating costs of the revenue sleepers, So what is the actual labor savings, plus the cost of the food no longer prepared on the train, or pre-prepared in a commissary kitchen? Bet that is more than the $40 per meal/per person.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

People are now talking of up to $40 per unit for the cost of the packaged meals, yet you can go into just about any decent grocery and get a damn good prepared meal, including heat-at-home, for well under $10. With that in mind, I do not see a $30 per unit hauling cost to get these trainside and into pax hands unless several folks in the logistics chain are on the strong pad.....


----------



## lordsigma

At least it sounds like the boxed meals are high quality. And if They are really serious about reintroducing hot meals this could not be the end of the world everyone thought it would be. I do feel for the folks that lost their Jobs though - in this day when good paying jobs seem harder and harder to come by. Has anyone that has seen the new program eaten in the ViewDiner? Do they do anything to make it inviting like table cloths or anything? So now what hot meals does everyone think they’ll do? I guess the key thing will be figuring out a few things the catering company can prepare that is easy for the ViewDiner staff member to heat up in the kitchen. They have a convection oven in there right?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It's not $30 per for the delivery. It's $30 for the delivery, the LSA and all costs associated with the LSA, and possibly some of that is for the physical "sleeper lounge" itself which has yearly maintenance etc.

I'm not saying that's what it costs, I'm just saying its not an unreasonable amount when all possible costs are considered. The box lunch doesn't magically appear on the train.


----------



## Thirdrail7

OlympianHiawatha said:


> People are now talking of up to $40 per unit for the cost of the packaged meals, yet you can go into just about any decent grocery and get a damn good prepared meal, including heat-at-home, for well under $10. With that in mind, I do not see a $30 per unit hauling cost to get these trainside and into pax hands unless several folks in the logistics chain are on the strong pad.....


There are a lot of steps taken to get the food to the train...and back. It is when you combine ALL of them, that you come up with this sort of figure. It is how Sen Mica came up with the (insert high number) hamburger cost.


----------



## chrsjrcj

If coach passengers were lining up to buy a $30 steak, I can only imagine the demand for a $40 boxed breakfast.


----------



## tommylicious

chrsjrcj said:


> If coach passengers were lining up to buy a $30 steak, I can only imagine the demand for a $40 boxed breakfast.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Truck stops sell hard boiled eggs. You can get a cup of eggs from a much larger jar, prepared by local staff. Or you can find a two pack of eggs. The two pack is packaged at the factory, self ready product.
> 
> Multi option, you just need the will to do so.


This ten thousand times.

I was optimistic for Anderson when he first came in, but he's proven himself to be more incompetent than every Amtrak CEO with the exception of Downs. He should be fired immediately. I could, personally, do a better job while working half time. I am not kidding.


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> Has anyone that has seen the new program eaten in the ViewDiner? Do they do anything to make it inviting like table cloths or anything?


PVD has, and he posted all about it a couple pages back. He didn't mention if there were tablecloths or not, but if you look at a photo Train_Freak took of the sleeper lounge from the outside, you can see through the window that the tables are bare.


----------



## PVD

No tablecloths on my train


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> No tablecloths on my train


I've gotta say, that really gets on my nerves. I just feel like they're pulling out all the stops to make the experience less nice. They're getting rid of full table service, hot meals, etc, and they can't even bother keeping the ambience the same while they're at it.


----------



## jis

Table Cloth? The Cap and the LSL hasn't had any Table Cloth for a while now. Table Paper? Yes. Table Cloth? No.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Table Cloth? The Cap and the LSL hasn't had any Table Cloth for a while now. Table Paper? Yes. Table Cloth? No.


True, though all the other ViewDiners do use tablecloths. And either way, I'd take table paper over table air anytime.


----------



## jis

Which View Diner uses Table Cloth?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The last time I rode the crescent it was just paper on the table, but they did have a silk flower in case on each table!


----------



## jis

I thought they pretty much did away with Table Cloth during the Boardman Flower Vase massacre. I know some trains on occasion do have Flowers showing up, but has Table Cloth shown up anywhere since then?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> I thought they pretty much did away with Table Cloth during the Boardman Flower Vase massacre. I know some trains on occasion do have Flowers showing up, but has Table Cloth shown up anywhere since then?


I would have sworn that they had tablecloths when I last rode the Meteor (January).


----------



## jis

AFAIR when I rode it in April to the RPA Spring Meeting, it was paper.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> AFAIR when I rode it in April to the RPA Spring Meeting, it was paper.


Then it's probably just my wonky memory. But either way, I'd still take a paper tablecloth over nothing at all.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I seem to recall cloth under the paper on at least one train.


----------



## OBS

AmtrakBlue said:


> I seem to recall cloth under the paper on at least on train.


I do too....


----------



## PVD

I had it last year on one trip, but am in brain lock (must be the thin air here) and don't remember which one. Even seen flowers recently. Maybe from the crew.


----------



## Lonestar648

When Amtrak put out requests for bids on providing the boxed meals, they submitted specifications for each. The catering companies, when submitting their bid have to look at the length of the contract for making their purchases, estimated numbers per day, if they deliver to Commissary or direct to the train. How many people will be involved to cook and prepare and package each box. Will different refrigeration equipment be required for transportation. what if access to the train is delayed? so the actual cost of the raw materials is minimal, because the labor cost is what drives final pricing. The catering company has purchasing people, the Chef who coordinates the cooking operation, the people doing the prep work, the people assembling the boxes, Someone is in charge of the transportation which is getting the 100 plus boxes in containers to keep at the correct temperature from the Catering cooler to the train. There is the truck and all its costs. Many of the costs would be less per box if there were more boxes ordered and if the catering company knew this was not a short term contract. $40/box is very reasonable in the catering business. Yes, if we were making a couple boxes ourselves we could in theory do it cheaper, but we forget our time involved, our car, our gas, our kitchen equipment, etc.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> I had it last year on one trip, but am in brain lock (must be the thin air here) and don't remember which one. Even seen flowers recently. Maybe from the crew.


There was a period when they suggested that they'd bring it back to the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder. I don;t know what came of it. never heard a rumor about such on any Eastern trains though.


----------



## PVD

I'll be heading home tom'w on the CZ, connection with the CL and I will report


----------



## cpotisch

A thought I just had: Once the LSL is running to NYP again, and the Sleeper Lounge will presumably be in the NYP section, will Boston sleeper passengers once again be offered a hot boxed meal from the cafe?


----------



## wi-smb

cpotisch said:


> will Boston sleeper passengers once again be offered a hot boxed meal from the cafe?


Theres a marketing opportunity: New from Amtrak Dining - the Hot Box combo. Grilled chicken Caesar salad with epic whine dressing, served with a side of failing equipment.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Werent they offered cafe food before the change?


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> Werent they offered cafe food before the change?


Nope. Sleeper passengers were offered a choice of a couple pre-made boxed meals, reheated in the cafe.


----------



## Johnnyg150

Originally, I was mortified by these changes, and wanted to raise hell with my congressman, but now I am really intothe changes. The ammentity kits look very promising and high end. The food actually is trendy and modern, perfect for the trendy CL and LSL routes. I am sure they will roll out warm options as soon as the kinks are worked out. Originally I thought these changes were meant to run it into the ground, but now it seems actually more comparable to LH buisness class. The ammenity kit was deffinitly the biggest sign that there was no plans to scrap the route. I think we need to embrace these changes and support a more modern Amtrak future.


----------



## tricia

Frankly, I think the amenity kit looks pretty useless and wasteful. Especially since the inconsistency of Amtrak service makes it imprudent NOT to bring your own toiletries etc.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Johnnyg150 said:


> Originally, I was mortified by these changes, and wanted to raise hell with my congressman, but now I am really intothe changes. The ammentity kits look very promising and high end. The food actually is trendy and modern, perfect for the trendy CL and LSL routes. I am sure they will roll out warm options as soon as the kinks are worked out. Originally I thought these changes were meant to run it into the ground, but now it seems actually more comparable to LH buisness class. The ammenity kit was deffinitly the biggest sign that there was no plans to scrap the route. I think we need to embrace these changes and support a more modern Amtrak future.


Did you ride these trains before the changes?

Honestly, this post has a bit of a corporate feel to it. But if I am wrong, welcome to AU!


----------



## TC_NYC

Johnnyg150 said:


> Originally, I was mortified by these changes, and wanted to raise hell with my congressman, but now I am really intothe changes. The ammentity kits look very promising and high end. The food actually is trendy and modern, perfect for the trendy CL and LSL routes. I am sure they will roll out warm options as soon as the kinks are worked out. Originally I thought these changes were meant to run it into the ground, but now it seems actually more comparable to LH buisness class. The ammenity kit was deffinitly the biggest sign that there was no plans to scrap the route. I think we need to embrace these changes and support a more modern Amtrak future.


I'm sorry, have you actually flown Lufthansa Business Class? Or even an American carrier's First class?

They aren't even in the same ballpark now.

First off, pretty much all airlines, despite being at 30k feet, manage to serve hot food. All airlines serve complimentary beverages (both alc and non-alc) -- *even in long haul coach. *None of this one-drink nonsense. Finally, Airlines aren't holding you captive for nearly as long. The LSL is nearly 20 hours long, there isn't a flight in the world that runs that long.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

chrsjrcj said:


> Johnnyg150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally, I was mortified by these changes, and wanted to raise hell with my congressman, but now I am really intothe changes. The ammentity kits look very promising and high end. The food actually is trendy and modern, perfect for the trendy CL and LSL routes. I am sure they will roll out warm options as soon as the kinks are worked out. Originally I thought these changes were meant to run it into the ground, but now it seems actually more comparable to LH buisness class. The ammenity kit was deffinitly the biggest sign that there was no plans to scrap the route. I think we need to embrace these changes and support a more modern Amtrak future.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ride these trains before the changes? Honestly, this post has a bit of a corporate feel to it. But if I am wrong, welcome to AU!
Click to expand...

I noticed that as well. This first time poster goes from suspicious and "mortified" to happy and supportive in the span of a single sentence. He then quickly hits upon several bullet points about "high end" amenities and "modern" dining on Amtrak's most "trendy" trains and promises "warm" (but not hot) food is just around the corner. He then repeats his vague reference to a sudden change of heart over what is in reality a pretty basic amenity kit before imploring everyone to rally behind these changes with proud enthusiasm.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Close... Currently the longest flight is 18 hours.


----------



## TiBike

Soon to be 20 hours:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/singapore-new-york-worlds-longest-nonstop-flight/index.html

I've done a few 10+ hour flights on Singapore Air in coach (and have a 12+ hour trip booked on SQ in August) – not bad at all. Not as comfortable as 10+ hours on Amtrak, but the service was great and I went a lot farther. The food was pretty good IIRC, but then I like cold, boxed salads (and free drinks even more)



.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

tricia said:


> Frankly, I think the amenity kit looks pretty useless and wasteful. Especially since the inconsistency of Amtrak service makes it imprudent NOT to bring your own toiletries etc.


I have several unopened amenity kits from the last time they were been handed out on the Lake Shore Limited. I agree with the wasteful. Yes the lounge should be able to sell you one in case you failed to pack one, but as freebies no, not needed.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought they pretty much did away with Table Cloth during the Boardman Flower Vase massacre. I know some trains on occasion do have Flowers showing up, but has Table Cloth shown up anywhere since then?
> 
> 
> 
> I would have sworn that they had tablecloths when I last rode the Meteor (January).
Click to expand...

At least one Sliver Dining crew is using tablecloths under the paper sheet. With silk flowers too.

.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

tricia said:


> Frankly, I think the amenity kit looks pretty useless and wasteful. Especially since the inconsistency of Amtrak service makes it imprudent NOT to bring your own toiletries etc.


I would think the amenity kits are comped to Amtrak and airlines by the companies slinging the products. They are sample-size portions offered in hopes the user likes them and buys the standard size products. In this case, the only expense Amtrak would have is getting the items to the stations to be loaded onto the trains.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I was just looking at the QANTAS site and it looks like they have gone to box service in Economy:

_*"No more trays and more meal choices - we've revolutionised the way you eat onboard. The meal service is quicker, with meals being delivered and cleared faster; giving you more time to do the things you want to do.*_

_*You can look forward to exciting dishes such as spiced lamb koftas with tomato, Riverina feta and roast potatoes; honey chicken salad with roasted vegetables and farro or yellow curry barramundi with jasmine rice."*_

But if they can offer hot boxed meals to over 100 pax from airliner galleys, I would think Amtrak should be able to offer hot boxed meals as well! BRING BACK AMLAMB!!!


----------



## crescent2

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think the amenity kit looks pretty useless and wasteful. Especially since the inconsistency of Amtrak service makes it imprudent NOT to bring your own toiletries etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I have several unopened amenity kits from the last time they were been handed out on the Lake Shore Limited. I agree with the wasteful. Yes the lounge should be able to sell you one in case you failed to pack one, but as freebies no, not needed.
Click to expand...


I'd rather have a hot dinner or breakfast any day than an amenity kit, especially when I can't be confident I'll even get it. I doubt I'm alone in that. As Tricia said, things are so inconsistent that I'd be afraid not to bring my own toiletries anyway, which makes the kit superfluous.

Also, I seldom drink alcohol, so that free drink ranks well below regular meal choices. I don't even drink many soft drinks, and I can buy those if I want. Better meal selections are far more basic than perks are on a _long distance_ train. And for what sleepers cost... I just don't see this being good for Amtrak overall. Cuts and downgrades add up and do affect the total travel experience.

And yes, (again) I know that was then and this is now, but to see those brand new expensive kitchens sit unused just makes Amtrak look terribly short-sighted and wasteful. I really hope this new plan doesn't spread to the other routes that still have full dining car service. (Crescent, I'm looking at you for later this summer!)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

OlympianHiawatha said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think the amenity kit looks pretty useless and wasteful. Especially since the inconsistency of Amtrak service makes it imprudent NOT to bring your own toiletries etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think the amenity kits are comped to Amtrak and airlines by the companies slinging the products. They are sample-size portions offered in hopes the user likes them and buys the standard size products. In this case, the only expense Amtrak would have is getting the items to the stations to be loaded onto the trains.
Click to expand...

Yeah, with hotels dropping the sample bottles, the companies need to find a home for their inventory. (At least one hotel I stayed in recently had dispensers, not bottles)


----------



## Maverickstation

Food Facts for the Lake Shore Limited has been updated, and the lunch/dinner options as expected, have sky high sodium counts,

this includes the Kids Meal.

Only the Breakfast Meal has a lower sodium count.

For someone like me who has to watch sodium in take like a hawk, I can not have any of the lunch/dinner options.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w612/h396/AMFF-SPRING-2018-CPT-LSL-04.pdf

Ken


----------



## TinCan782

Maverickstation said:


> Food Facts for the Lake Shore Limited has been updated, and the lunch/dinner options as expected, have sky high sodium counts,
> 
> this includes the Kids Meal.
> 
> Only the Breakfast Meal has a lower sodium count.
> 
> For someone like me who has to watch sodium in take like a hawk, I can not have any of the lunch/dinner options.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w612/h396/AMFF-SPRING-2018-CPT-LSL-04.pdf
> 
> Ken


Not only the sodium in that, the calories, fat, cholesterol and sugar are pretty high too! Well, it does have 8 grams of fiber!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

wi-smb said:


> In my discussion with some of the crew, I heard that they do not get food on board - they are given (what sounded to me to be) a per diem. So, they can spend their per diem in the cafe, or bank it and bring their own. They are not allocated boxes. Also, for someone traveling on Amtrak business, they have to pay $40 per boxed meal, but are reimbursed.


Amtrak employees riding on business travel can purchase the meal box for $25.


----------



## cpotisch

Johnnyg150 said:


> Originally, I was mortified by these changes, and wanted to raise hell with my congressman, but now I am really intothe changes. The ammentity kits look very promising and high end. The food actually is trendy and modern, perfect for the trendy CL and LSL routes. I am sure they will roll out warm options as soon as the kinks are worked out. Originally I thought these changes were meant to run it into the ground, but now it seems actually more comparable to LH buisness class. The ammenity kit was deffinitly the biggest sign that there was no plans to scrap the route. I think we need to embrace these changes and support a more modern Amtrak future.


I strongly disagree. I don't think that they're going to add hot meals "as soon as the kinks are worked out," since the entire point of this was to significantly reduce food prep costs and labour, and hot meals would require onboard meal prep. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say that the CL and LSL are trendy (or the meals themselves), but I can tell you that what was offered before was significantly better in pretty much every way. There was full table service, several hot options at every meal, as well as side salads and desserts. Now you don't have any choice for breakfast, and lunch and dinner both offer the same five options (only one of which doesn't have meat), which don't allow you to choose your dessert. And you should know that Lufthansa business class (or pretty much any international business class for that matter), offers hot meals and a choice of dessert. The new meal offerings on the Capitol and Lake Shore are not even in the same league. And I'll mention that the amenity kit is pretty run of the mill, and not every crew has actually been giving them out - many passengers haven't gotten them at all. A kit like that can be gotten for around $10 from plenty of stores, so even if you do receive one, it's pretty much nothing compared to the $500+ a sleeper ticket often costs on those trains.


----------



## wi-smb

I gave my feedback onboard to an Amtrak rep who was surveying.

I understand the disdain for the changes. Dont knock all of the food until youve tried it. The chicken kale Caesar was markedly better than every meal Ive had prepared in the diners in the last 20 years.


----------



## cpotisch

wi-smb said:


> I gave my feedback onboard to an Amtrak rep who was surveying.
> 
> I understand the disdain for the changes. Dont knock all of the food until youve tried it. The chicken kale Caesar was markedly better than every meal Ive had prepared in the diners in the last 20 years.


I'm glad that the salads seem to be very good, however, until I hear that the Vegan Wrap is great (and the "Vegan Dessert Bar" it includes), I'm out of luck.


----------



## wi-smb

cpotisch said:


> I'm glad that the salads seem to be very good, however, until I hear that the Vegan Wrap is great (and the "Vegan Dessert Bar" it includes), I'm out of luck.


I gave this feedback (increasing choices for dietary needs) and suggested they look into order-ahead. I also suggested that they look at what ÖBB has done on their NightJet service. The person I spoke to from Amtrak was very open to it. She also lamented the destruction of the opportunity to build community in the diner - and I suggested that they may be able to still encourage that with more engagement from the LSA.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> Close... Currently the longest flight is 18 hours.


Must be anAllegiant flight as tey all seem that long.


----------



## wi-smb

me_little_me said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Close... Currently the longest flight is 18 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be anAllegiant flight as tey all seem that long.
Click to expand...

Or Frontier


----------



## cpotisch

wi-smb said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Close... Currently the longest flight is 18 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be anAllegiant flight as tey all seem that long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or Frontier
Click to expand...

Spirit trumps them all. Just don't get me started about Spirit.


----------



## crescent2

wi-smb said:


> I gave my feedback onboard to an Amtrak rep who was surveying.
> 
> I understand the disdain for the changes. Dont knock all of the food until youve tried it. The chicken kale Caesar was markedly better than every meal Ive had prepared in the diners in the last 20 years.



It's not that the cold boxed meals are "bad" in themselves; it's that they are the _only _option for lunch and dinner. I'd probably choose one for one day's lunch, although the option of at least a burger would be nice. For the main meal of the day, they are very light fare, especially for more than one day. The high-carb breakfast is a huge downgrade from the traditional cooked breakfast choices.

For what sleeper tickets cost, more meal options should be available. Then there are the coach passengers who are totally left out, with only the cafe food available. Every time I've ever ridden coach on a long distance train, I've eaten in the dining car, as have my travel companion(s). The food was much better than anything offered in the cafe. I'm also one who greatly enjoys the total dining car experience, and am happy that the long-awaited new dining cars have finally (mostly) arrived.

Like some others, I have to be doubtful that hot meals will be added later, as that would seem to defeat the purpose of going to the boxed meals, but we can hope. A larger concern is that this plan will spread to the other long distance trains with longer routes. There's been quite a trend of downgrading food service on several trains already.

People are funny about food. As a retired teacher, I know that participation in brief after-hours school activities, for both students and parents, was greatly increased if we fed them. Unlike other modes of transportation, passengers on long distance routes are held captive in the train for long periods of time, and good food choices are important. While it's not the only factor, it is a factor in choosing how to travel. Personally, I take the train for the total experience, as I don't mind driving reasonable distances and, while I don't especially enjoy it, I don't mind flying which certainly saves a lot of time, and usually money too. I hope the dining cars--used as dining cars--don't go away.


----------



## TiBike

It sounding more and more like the new meals are higher quality than the old-style diner food. Or at least what the old-style stuff had become.

I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.

The menu is generally high in fat, but on the salads at least, it looks like most of it is in the dressing – how much you use is up to you – and the dessert, which you don't have to eat either. That brings down the calorie count, which also leaves room for a third meal in the day.

I hope this menu makes it to the Starlight and Zephyr soon.



crescent2 said:


> wi-smb said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the disdain for the changes. Dont knock all of the food until youve tried it. The chicken kale Caesar was markedly better than every meal Ive had prepared in the diners in the last 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that the cold boxed meals are "bad" in themselves; it's that they are the _only _option for lunch and dinner. I'd probably choose one for one day's lunch, although the option of at least a burger would be nice. For the main meal of the day, they are very light fare, especially for more than one day. The high-carb breakfast is a huge downgrade from the traditional cooked breakfast choices.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Like some others, I have to be doubtful that hot meals will be added later, as that would seem to defeat the purpose of going to the boxed meals, but we can hope. A larger concern is that this plan will spread to the other long distance trains with longer routes. There's been quite a trend of downgrading food service on several trains already.
Click to expand...


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> It sounding more and more like the new meals are higher quality than the old-style diner food. Or at least what the old-style stuff had become.
> 
> I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.


You can't just judge meals on calories and nothing else. A Big Mac has 563 calories, but that doesn't mean the average adult should eat four Big Macs a day and nothing else. There's a tremendous amount of sodium in most of the new entrees, and there are very limited options for those with dietary restrictions. So I personally don't think the new menu is very healthy, and don't see why much indication that it's particularly high quality.


----------



## TiBike

I'm not seeing Big Macs on the menu. What I am seeing is more fruit and vegetables, and better quality control, than before.

"Limited options" is not the same as no options. Amtrak is not a 3-star restaurant. It's a means of transportation. There's enough food and choice on the new menu to get pretty much anyone from point A to point B. My dietary restriction is I don't like to eat crap, so I eat before I get on a long distance train and/or bring my own food. Or I just accept that travel is about novelty and stretching my comfort zone, and get over myself.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TiBike said:


> I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.


Other than Amtrak I haven't see anyone asking you to buy anything so I'm not sure why you're so fired up about this. Just to be clear, an adult male doesn't need anywhere near that many calories when all they're doing is sitting and sleeping on a train. Also, calories don't measure how full you'll feel after eating and having reviewed the current offerings they don't look like they'd fill me up for the long haul. The rather sparse looking snack box and the cold breakfast box are the least appetizing examples. The salads and sandwiches look okay as a lunch but they don't appeal to me as an evening dinner meal. If riding in an Amtrak sleeper were cheaper I might not care, but where I live and travel it's $500 or more each way and these meals don't do a good job of complementing that kind of expenditure.



TiBike said:


> I hope this menu makes it to the Starlight and Zephyr soon.


In my experience the Zephyr's dining car staff can be so rude and obnoxious that it might actually be an improvement to kick them off and replace their efforts with generic boxed meals, but the Starlight certainly doesn't deserve this kind of shabby treatment.


----------



## crescent2

cpotisch said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounding more and more like the new meals are higher quality than the old-style diner food. Or at least what the old-style stuff had become.
> 
> I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't just judge meals on calories and nothing else. A Big Mac has 563 calories, but that doesn't mean the average adult should eat four Big Macs a day and nothing else. There's a tremendous amount of sodium in most of the new entrees, and there are very limited options for those with dietary restrictions. So I personally don't think the new menu is very healthy, and don't see why much indication that it's particularly high quality.
Click to expand...


Perhaps I should clarify, although I think most people would understand what I meant in my post.

By "light" I wasn't thinking of numbers. A salad with a few pieces of cold meat on top and a dessert is "light" (even if high-calorie) compared with say, a steak or steak and seafood dinner that includes a small salad, a baked potato, a vegetable such as green beans, a roll, and a dessert, or even a salmon dinner that includes similar sides.

If the new breakfast has 1,600 calories, it's even worse than I thought, and makes my point better than I did. If I'm going to spring for that many calories, I at least want bacon and eggs, LOL. It's hard to see that 1,600-calorie breakfast as any kind of improvement.

These are just my personal preferences, of course.


----------



## TiBike

I'm "so fired up about this" because the new menu looks to me like a significant improvement in food quality, choice, service and experience. I like salads, I like having two salads and a vegan meal to choose from, I like seeing my meal before I buy it, I like not having to rely on random chance to get a well prepared meal, I like picking up my meal myself when it suits me, I like eating my meal where it suits me and I like not being shoehorned into a table for, as some posters seem to think, the entertainment of strangers.

I'll buy that any time.


----------



## greatcats

A few posts back negative comments were made about the servers on the CZ. Yes, there are some bad apples out there, but I think most of them do an excellent job under often difficult circumstances. The two gentlemen ( Kevin and a Mr Weber)on the Cardinal recently, while My opinion of the food was mostly low, did their best to please the customers and spoke to me about why they prefer working that route. On the Southwest Chief, Shaun and Myrna were friendly and efficient. Those jobs are not for everybody.


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> I'm "so fired up about this" because the new menu looks to me like a significant improvement in food quality, choice, service and experience. I like salads, I like having two salads and a vegan meal to choose from, I like seeing my meal before I buy it, I like not having to rely on random chance to get a well prepared meal, I like picking up my meal myself when it suits me, I like eating my meal where it suits me and I like not being shoehorned into a table for, as some posters seem to think, the entertainment of strangers.
> 
> I'll buy that any time.


You're free to like the new menu. However, as someone who can't eat meat, I now literally have no choice whatsoever. For breakfast, there's just the one option, and for lunch/dinner there's the one vegetarian option. What's "fun" however, is that I hate yogurt (which cuts out about 1/3 of my breakfast) and I tend to hate cold wraps. And if I get that Vegan Wrap, I don't even have a cheesecake to enjoy, because the dessert that comes with it is a "Vegan Dessert Bar." And what if you don't eat meat _or_ gluten? Then you can't have anything.

And bear in mind that you already had the option to eat in the diner _or _in your room, so there isn't any added flexibility in where you eat. And since it seems like people can chill in the "Sleeper Lounge" whenever they want, it's that much less likely that there will be room for those who are dining.


----------



## TiBike

Of necessity, the menu choices on a train will be limited. If the options don't suit me, I can either suck it up and live with what's there, or accept responsibility for my own happiness and bring my own food.

With standard diner service, you have the choice of 1. eating in the diner at an assigned time with assigned companions, or 2. somehow learning that you can have food brought to your sleeper, finding the attendant to ask for it, hoping the attendant doesn't blow you off because he/she has other duties at the moment or would like you to think so, and then waiting for it to show up. Either way, sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. The new systems gives me the responsibility and the means to decide when and where I'll eat. That was not the case before.


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> 2. somehow learning that you can have food brought to your sleeper, finding the attendant to ask for it, hoping the attendant doesn't blow you off because he/she has other duties at the moment or would like you to think so, and then waiting for it to show up. Either way, sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. The new systems gives me the responsibility and the means to decide when and where I'll eat. That was not the case before.


While the menu choices on a train usually have to be limited, they didn't have any problem offering a significantly wider variety before, so why is that suddenly impossible, other than to cut costs?

As to it apparently being impossible to know that room service is an option to sleeper passengers, they already list it as an amenity for every sleeper on the website. And since you think that it's impossible to find your SCA already, wouldn't it be at least is difficult with the new system, since the SCA has to serve food to that many more passengers?


----------



## TiBike

Variety is in the eye of the beholder – I'm seeing more choices that suit me. YMMV.

Asking the SCA to get your meal is just one option now, and a one-step job for the SCA. You can also walk to the diner, pick it up and walk back yourself. Without a reservation or asking permission. Without fully researching Amtrak's rules and procedures, and then communicating that knowledge to staff as necessary.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

TiBike,

I understand that some people, including you, will like the new system. I think, though, that it is those of us who liked the old system who almost feel like we are being punished and have no clue why.

You always had the option to ask for your meals to be brought to you, and most of my SCAs through the years have mentioned both options. Traveling alone, I always went to the dining car, because the people I have met on the train were, in general, interesting people with fascinating careers or stories, often from other countries, and it was a wonderful way to broaden my horizons.

I was only disappointed a few times--a couple of times when I was seated by myself to start a new table and nobody else came in. And recently, when some people were staring at their phones through the meal. It is of course possible that the world has changed so much from decent civility that everyone will talk to their phones and not ever to another person, in which case the dining car experience is doomed anyway.

But for now I feel like I am being told to sit in my room (or go to what could have been a lovely dining car, made purposely unappealing--no tablecloths, even paper ones?) and wait for someone to bring me a cold box (or go get it myself, of course). Yes, you get to Chicago early enough on the CL to go get a decent breakfast at the diner down the street, but why should you have to? I even thought I could give the breakfast box to a homeless person instead of wasting it, but the ingredients are so unhealthy I would feel guilty in case they got sick from all that sugar and salt.

I have a feeling that if I ever take the CL, I will end up at the door of the diner a few blocks away and, with apologies to Charles Dickens, very timidly say, "Please, sir, may I have an egg?"






(By the way, oddly enough, I am not an extrovert by nature, so it's not that I couldn't be without company. I just think the dining car experience was unique and enjoyable.)


----------



## TiBike

I understand the disappointment of losing a particular service or experience that you loved. To that extent, Amtrak has let you down. That's not true for everyone, though – that's the main point I'm trying to make. There are plenty of minuses, but there are pluses too. The question Amtrak has to answer going forward is whether, on the whole, the net result is positive or negative.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Okay--fair enough, TiBike.





In a sense, Amtrak's whole existence has been an experiment--perhaps that is why things have constantly changed there, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

I think where they fall down is in not asking for passenger feedback, which makes it look like they don't care about the people who keep them going.


----------



## Manny T

First kudos to Amtrak for publishing nutritional information on the new meals in a timely fashion.

The breakfast clocks in fairly well in terms of saturated fat and sodium--especially if you don't eat anything else for the rest of the day.

But if you eat an Amtrak lunch (any entree, except vegan), you will exceed your mdvs in saturated fat and sodium, and if you have another "contemporary" boxed meal for dinner, you may as well go directly from the train to your cardiologist's office for a check-up. (The antipasto dinner has 32 g of fat, 160% of your mdv, and 3920 mg of sodium, 163% of your mdv.)

But at least the information is available, so choices can be made on an informed basis.


----------



## RichieRich

"nutritional information" Give me a break. That's like "nutritional information" at a McDonalds. You know what to expect. If you are _that _sensitive...just bring your own soylent green.


----------



## Manny T

The only "soylent green" I am aware of is composed of deceased humans in the sci-fi movie, Soylent Green (1973). So far as I know, it's not available commercially in the USA.

Under "Food Facts," Amtrak lists two types of information, ingredients and nutritional content. One doesn't have to be sensitive to anything to consult this information or use it for the purpose intended, which is guiding choices.


----------



## Ryan

https://www.soylent.com


----------



## Manny T

Ryan thank you. But that's Soylent; richierich was recommending Soylent GREEN.

That's a bird of a different feather.


----------



## cpotisch

Manny T said:


> Ryan thank you. But that's Soylent; richierich was recommending Soylent GREEN.
> 
> That's a bird of a different feather.


Just so you know, Soylent gets its name from Soylent Green.


----------



## PVD

Edward G Robinson's last role.


----------



## Ryan

You're being needlessly literal.


----------



## PVD

He was dying at the time and Charlton Heston had to hold himself together when they filmed the scene where Sol was dying, he was one of tbe few who knew how sick EGR was.


----------



## Manny T

cpotisch said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan thank you. But that's Soylent; richierich was recommending Soylent GREEN.
> 
> That's a bird of a different feather.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so you know, Soylent gets its name from Soylent Green.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think so. I think both take their name from a sci-fi novel that featured a soy and lentil product named Soylent. In the movie, the product's name is Soylent Green, and it's made from humans (a bit of false advertising, like Amtrak's "light" and "contemporary" as applied to its boxed meals.)


----------



## cpotisch

Manny T said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan thank you. But that's Soylent; richierich was recommending Soylent GREEN.
> 
> That's a bird of a different feather.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so you know, Soylent gets its name from Soylent Green.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Honestly, I don't think so. I think both take their name from a sci-fi novel that featured a soy and lentil product named Soylent. In the movie, the product's name is Soylent Green, and it's made from humans (a bit of false advertising, like Amtrak's "light" and "contemporary" as applied to its boxed meals.)
Click to expand...

Turns out it's a combination of the two. From the Soylent wikipedia page:

_"Soylent is named after a food in Harry Harrison's 1966 science fiction novel Make Room! Make Room! In the novel, most types of soylent are made from soyaand lentils. The word also evokes the 1973 film adaptation Soylent Green, in which the eponymous food is made from human remains—something of a joke, since in reality people are made of Soylent (at least those who consume Soylent).[11] Rhinehart also says he chose the name, with its morbid associations, to pique curiosity and deeper investigation, since the name is clearly was not chosen with a traditonally "flashy" marketing scheme in mind."_


----------



## RichieRich

Some people "got it"! Aren't you sick of people that go to FatBurger, order the Triple Bacon & Cheese Burger, then complain that the "nutrition info" wasn't printed on the front door! lol Lol LOL Like I said - if your dainty digestive system is that sensitive...you shouldn't be eating in public! Pack your own "food"... or "crackers"!!! Would soylent green from fat people be higher in calories then from skinny people ??? Makes you go "hmmmmm". LOL Off topic, but you gotta admit that movie, with "assisted suicide" was way ahead of its time!


----------



## Chey

TiBike said:


> I understand the disappointment of losing a particular service or experience that you loved. To that extent, Amtrak has let you down. That's not true for everyone, though – that's the main point I'm trying to make. There are plenty of minuses, but there are pluses too. The question Amtrak has to answer going forward is whether, on the whole, the net result is positive or negative.


Looks like a godsend to me! I can put aside the higher-carb offerings for later, take the high-protein and high-fiber offerings together. I know it's hard for those who liked the old menu - but it never worked for people like me. And the quality looks like a BIG improvement. I've said before I didn't think the old menus were that great.

All I can say to those who hate the changes is, I always depended on the food I brought with me to see me through, you can be resourceful as well. I know it sucks, I had to do it too. But it can be done and it's only two lines, at least for now.


----------



## pennyk

Gentle Reminder: Please try to stay on topic (New menu options on CL and LSL) and be respectful. Also try to remember that we are all different and we all have different likes and dislikes regarding food. Thank you.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Okay--fair enough, TiBike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a sense, Amtrak's whole existence has been an experiment--perhaps that is why things have constantly changed there, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
> 
> I think where they fall down is in not asking for passenger feedback, which makes it look like they don't care about the people who keep them going.


They are supposed to review this operation prior to fall. I would think passenger feedback would be a part of the process. We should wait and see if PVD or any of the other riders get a survey or receive a phone call.


----------



## Lonestar648

I remember a time several years ago that several Amtrak managers got on the CL in Pittsburgh interviewing everyone in the Dining Car on their overall experience on the CL and in the sleeper.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay--fair enough, TiBike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a sense, Amtrak's whole existence has been an experiment--perhaps that is why things have constantly changed there, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
> 
> I think where they fall down is in not asking for passenger feedback, which makes it look like they don't care about the people who keep them going.
> 
> 
> 
> They are supposed to review this operation prior to fall. I would think passenger feedback would be a part of the process. We should wait and see if PVD or any of the other riders get a survey or receive a phone call.
Click to expand...

I’ve read Amtrak has people on both the CL & LSL getting feedback on the new meals/experience.


----------



## benale

One hot item should have been kept on the menu for all meals,or at least sleeper passengers should be given a voucher for a microwaved meal in the cafe car. What the hell was Anderson thinking?...like he didnt expect overwhelming negative feedback to this obvious downgrade? Even worse the price of sleepers had not gone down.


----------



## amtrakpass

"Ive read Amtrak has people on both the CL & LSL getting feedback on the new meals/experience"

From just the sleeper passengers or are they walking through the coaches asking how they like not having anything but the cafe car menu available and being locked out of the new lounge car?

I'm happy however they can improve the sleeping car experience but the majority of people travel coach and I hope the quality of their trip is being considered too.


----------



## jis

Ironically, hot meals delivered in frozen form that are nuked/convection ovened before delivery are easier to handle (read overages are easier to use on a later train, within limits of course) for hard to guess numbers for inventory, than fresh food. There is a reason that the burgers in the Cafe don't come with lettuce and tomato and such.

I think pre-ordering facility extended to Coach passengers would be able to address that issue and then all could have fresh and some hot meals too, if Amtrak chooses to go that way.

I am now starting to read reports in the Amtrak Fans group on Facebook about from several passengers on the LSL and CL who appear to have liked the new fare. So the verdict on it is not as unequivocally negative as one would guess hearing about it from most railfans. But as we know tastes vary, so this was to be expected.


----------



## willem

Ryan said:


> You're being needlessly literal.


Words have meaning. It is incumbent on the writer to say what he or she means, not to expect that the reader will mentally edit the writing to the author's intention.

Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.


----------



## Ryan

There isn’t any mental editing needed. He made a cultural reference to both a popular movie and a current food product.

(Hint: he wasn’t literally suggesting that the people eat nothing but Soylent)


----------



## bretton88

benale said:


> One hot item should have been kept on the menu for all meals,or at least sleeper passengers should be given a voucher for a microwaved meal in the cafe car. What the hell was Anderson thinking?...like he didnt expect overwhelming negative feedback to this obvious downgrade? Even worse the price of sleepers had not gone down.


We have a pretty good idea what he was thinking: keep it really simple to start and then add to it as things get sorted out. Now whether it was the right move to strip everything down like that is what is up for debate.


----------



## Lonestar648

In these type of inquiries, too many times those doing the interviewing hear what they want to hear and miss critical points sometimes listed on written forms. Are they looking for support of their concept or are they looking to improve the passenger experience? Guess we will know once we hear from those who have been doing the experience since the first of June.


----------



## cpotisch

redacted


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In these type of inquiries, too many times those doing the interviewing hear what they want to hear and miss critical points sometimes listed on written forms. Are they looking for support of their concept or are they looking to improve the passenger experience? Guess we will know once we hear from those who have been doing the experience since the first of June.
> 
> 
> 
> With these kinds of things, I've found that those "out in the field" are just there to give the impression that management cares about what the customer thinks, and the actual data collected is totally ignored. Every once in a while there's an actual good faith effort to improve the experience and listen to customers, but I feel like this isn't one of those times.
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have so far to support your feeling regarding the feedback from the food service from the field? I am not talking of the extremely loud protestations from the known rail enthusiasts, but feedback from run of the mill every day passengers.


----------



## neroden

Cpotisch has a lot of experience with this type of fake feedback collection. :-(


----------



## Ryan

I’d be interested in hearing about that vast experience.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> I’d be interested in hearing about that vast experience.


Especially for a 16 year old


----------



## me_little_me

TiBike said:


> It sounding more and more like the new meals are higher quality than the old-style diner food. Or at least what the old-style stuff had become.
> 
> I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.
> 
> The menu is generally high in fat, but on the salads at least, it looks like most of it is in the dressing – how much you use is up to you – and the dessert, which you don't have to eat either. That brings down the calorie count, which also leaves room for a third meal in the day.
> 
> I hope this menu makes it to the Starlight and Zephyr soon.


Breakfast is 99g of sugar. That's not nutritious. I don't care how much protein it has. My usual breakfast has far less than 5% of that whether I have an egg and cheese on an English muffin or hot oatmeal with nuts and sweetened with a teaspoon of a natural sugar that has 3g of sugar instead of the 5g of table sugar.

It may be fresh (or as fresh as "protein bars" aka "sugar with protein bars" can be) but there is no choice except to eat this sugary item or that one.


----------



## jebr

willem said:


> Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.


Is it such an abomination, though? It's certainly becoming more and more common for restaurants, especially low-to-mid-range restaurants, to not have wait staff, and others that do may remove some of the wait staff interactions to reduce the number of wait staff. Ordering and paying at the counter is becoming quite common, and most of the fast casual concept of restaurant chains even have customers pick up their order at the counter, perhaps even busing their own tables. Having counter service instead of waiter service could be seen as more "contemporary" with those changes.

The entrees also certainly seem fresh; the reports I've read suggest that the food used in them was recently prepared and likely is fresh (lettuce for salads won't last terribly long, especially since it doesn't look like they're using iceberg lettuce. Thus, it seems to be pretty "fresh" as well.

You may certainly disagree with the improvements being a net positive (and until hot options are brought on, I'm still not fully on board with the changes) but this being a contemporary and fresh change, while certainly spinning the change as a positive, does seem to have some basis in the reality of the meals served.


----------



## Lonestar648

I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jebr said:


> willem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it such an abomination, though? It's certainly becoming more and more common for restaurants, especially low-to-mid-range restaurants, to not have wait staff, and others that do may remove some of the wait staff interactions to reduce the number of wait staff. Ordering and paying at the counter is becoming quite common, and most of the fast casual concept of restaurant chains even have customers pick up their order at the counter, perhaps even busing their own tables. Having counter service instead of waiter service could be seen as more "contemporary" with those changes. The entrees also certainly seem fresh; the reports I've read suggest that the food used in them was recently prepared and likely is fresh (lettuce for salads won't last terribly long, especially since it doesn't look like they're using iceberg lettuce. Thus, it seems to be pretty "fresh" as well. You may certainly disagree with the improvements being a net positive (and until hot options are brought on, I'm still not fully on board with the changes) but this being a contemporary and fresh change, while certainly spinning the change as a positive, does seem to have some basis in the reality of the meals served.
Click to expand...

I'd be hard pressed to name a single restaurant which offers zero hot meals, cannot change anything substantive about your meal, and cannot even combine your preferred entree with a dessert of your own choosing. Even really basic restaurants like Subway can offer hot meals with or without a dozen different ingredients and your choice of cookie. When I think of "fresh and contemporary" I think of carefully paired fusion cuisine, new twists on re-imagined comfort food, and internationally influenced vegetarian meals. I don't think of cold salads and sandwiches from yesterday's kitchen prep. That's not to say I think these meals are horrible, but they honestly seem like like something that should have been stocked in the cafe's refrigerated section rather than presented in a private diner as a full sit down meal for sleeper car passengers.


----------



## railiner

Heck...even "Subway" restaurants, whose tagline is "eat fresh", heats up some of their sandwiches....


----------



## tommylicious

All this nonsense over getting rid of a chef. Just awful. Ain't ridin' these lines no more.


----------



## MARC Rider

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I was just looking at the QANTAS site and it looks like they have gone to box service in Economy:
> 
> _*"No more trays and more meal choices - we've revolutionised the way you eat onboard. The meal service is quicker, with meals being delivered and cleared faster; giving you more time to do the things you want to do.*_
> 
> _*You can look forward to exciting dishes such as spiced lamb koftas with tomato, Riverina feta and roast potatoes; honey chicken salad with roasted vegetables and farro or yellow curry barramundi with jasmine rice."*_
> 
> But if they can offer hot boxed meals to over 100 pax from airliner galleys, I would think Amtrak should be able to offer hot boxed meals as well! BRING BACK AMLAMB!!!


Can you really compare airline food service with train food service? Airline food is served by flight attendants, who are aircrew and thus limited in the hours they can work, so for longer flights, they have to carry a complete relief crew. It would be analogous to having the conductors on the train heating and serving meals. Right.

As far as comparable crew sizes, I read a thread on airliners.net that claims canin crew sizes for a 787 that range from 8 (on Norwegian) to 17 (for British AirwaYs). United (which I flew to Beijing) has 11. This would be in addition to the pilot and co-pilot, and they would need to carry spares of those for a long flight.

How does this compare to crew size on a typical Amtrak long distance train? the 787 has a passenger capacity of 250 to 300, a typical Sperliner train (4 coaches, 2 sleepers) has a capacity of about 350.

Of course, the train can carry many more passengers over the trip because it stops a lot along the way.


----------



## Lonestar648

Something to keep in mind when comparing the airlines. The catering company isn't just cooking and preparing meals for one flight on one airline. Generally, there are several flights with the same menu, this dilutes the overhead costs significantly. Amtrak right now is catering in New York, Washington, and Chicago. and for a small number of passengers. Should the food be better with a small number, well that depends on how much Amtrak is paying per meal as to how much time can be spent preparing each meal.

A thought, Dinner is served soon after departure on both ends of the CL. The LSL is too late out of Chicago, and a mess out of New York. For the CL, Amtrak could have the caterer bring a couple hot meals to be served in the Lounge like the PPC used to do. The LSA could have warming ovens ready when the caterer arrived to keep the meals warm until served in a few hours. This is an idea for Dinner that does not increase the F&B OBS labor costs and offers a fresh hot dinner.


----------



## jis

How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.


----------



## snvboy

And I think this is possibly where Mr. Anderson's thinking on food service is at - if better food can be done on the airline with less crew and less specialized crew, why can't it be done on Amtrak as well? And I have to agree with him. And for the catering company, I think Amtrak can be just another carrier, just one who happens to be a little further away from the catering kitchen. Truck the meals over and load 'em up, plenty of cities that every Amtrak route goes though that also has airline catering available.


----------



## zepherdude

snvboy said:


> And I think this is possibly where Mr. Anderson's thinking on food service is at - if better food can be done on the airline with less crew and less specialized crew, why can't it be done on Amtrak as well? And I have to agree with him. And for the catering company, I think Amtrak can be just another carrier, just one who happens to be a little further away from the catering kitchen. Truck the meals over and load 'em up, plenty of cities that every Amtrak route goes though that also has airline catering available.


Just like airline catering.


----------



## AcrossTheOcean

Lonestar648 said:


> I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.


You keep the hot entrees chilled until it is time to heat them. Then you move the entrees in foil packets out of the refrigerator and into the convection oven and turn it on.

I doubt that the hot entrees served toward the end of long-haul flights are kept warm the whole time. Instead, they are kept cold (loaded frozen?) and then reheated at the appropriate time in a convection oven. I figure on an aircraft the entrees are delivered on some sort of rack and stored in the oven itself until it is time to turn it on.

In case it has been a while since you were last on a long-haul flight with complimentary meal service, the flight attendants go down the aisles with a cart. Some levels of the cart have the meal trays with the sides and dessert already on them. Each passenger is asked which entree they want (if there is an option), and the associated foil packeted entree is added to the meal tray. If a SCA has a similar cart, it would make serving hot meals only slightly more complicated (on the upper level, at least) than an all-cold option. But flight attendants usually don't have to carry meals up or down stairs to serve them. A SCA would need to do so.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.


You'd think Mr. Anderson would know that this is possible, wouldn't you?


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd think Mr. Anderson would know that this is possible, wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

I suspect that is how Amtrak proposes to bring hot entries into the program at some point. It involves a little bit of additional prep training perhaps, than handing out cold boxes. Again, complete speculation on my part. I have neither experience nor any particular insights beyond observing how it is done from the customer's perspective, where I have seen it done.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Simple answer, let Sleeper passengers order from several healthy choices in advance while booking, and serve the meals in the Lounge/Diner just like in Acela FC on the Sacred NEC.

Might be too much common sense for Amtrak where innovation usually involves nickel and dime cuts that are penny wise and pound foolish.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Simple answer, let Sleeper passengers order from several healthy choices in advance while booking, and serve the meals in the Lounge/Diner just like in Acela FC on the Sacred NEC.
> 
> Might be too much common sense for Amtrak where innovation usually involves nickel and dime cuts that are penny wise and pound foolish.


That is pretty close to what they have said is their plan. As for when they get there, who knows?


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Simple answer, let Sleeper passengers order from several healthy choices in advance while booking, and serve the meals in the Lounge/Diner just like in Acela FC on the Sacred NEC.
> 
> Might be too much common sense for Amtrak where innovation usually involves nickel and dime cuts that are penny wise and pound foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> That is pretty close to what they have said is their plan. As for when they get there, who knows?
Click to expand...

What's the "Over and Under" on this happening in our lifetimes jis?
This vague plan sounds similar to the Viewliner II plan no??


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd think Mr. Anderson would know that this is possible, wouldn't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect that is how Amtrak proposes to bring hot entries into the program at some point. It involves a little bit of additional prep training perhaps, than handing out cold boxes. Again, complete speculation on my part. I have neither experience nor any particular insights beyond observing how it is done from the customer's perspective, where I have seen it done.
Click to expand...

Either that or they plan to have you put your ticket/boarding pass/cell phone in a slot that reads that you are a sleeper passenger and the vending machine lets you select lunch/dinner meal and then it drops that meal out the slot so you can take it to your table or back to your room.

On the other hand, they might get really nice and you tell a wandering robot what you want and it brings you a meal. Your drink is dispensed from the robot's arm into your cup except if you order a beer - in which case it's dispensed from somewhere else.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> This vague plan sounds similar to the Viewliner II plan no??


I am not sure I see much similarity. But that maybe just my lack of imagination


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This vague plan sounds similar to the Viewliner II plan no??
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure I see much similarity. But that maybe just my lack of imagination
Click to expand...

You have a very imaginative mind!
I'm referring to vague promises,about delivery dates that turn out out to be wishful thinking and no follow up by management when it stretches on for years!


----------



## Bob Dylan

As for the post by me_little_me, as a Veteran of SPs infamous Automat Car, I certainly hope this is NEVER considered by Amtrak!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I wonder how today's AU would react to yesterday's automat cars. It's tempting to think we'd all be pretty negative about it but in reality I'd imagine there would still be a substantial contingent of members who considered automat meals a positive development and others who might be less than impressed but would still consider it a blessing to have any food included regardless of quality or selection.


----------



## jis

I still wonder why people imagine the bizarre when a specific plan has been articulated by the management. It is OK that some don't like it, but coming up with utter nonsense is not the way to handle ones grief. Way too much fake news going around even without us contributing our own.

Meanwhile, there are reports appearing in Facebook from random passengers who have not been properly educated about what should or should not be acceptable, and who have experienced the new service, stating that they like some aspects and would like a few other aspects changed. Apparently the utter doom that has been forecast is not going to materialize.

Almost all such reports mention the need for one or two hot items. Most seem to feel that the cold items are fine as cold items go, but a hot item or two would be desirable. Also there appears to be several who mention the need for something hot for breakfast too, but also say that the amount of food served is huge, and the Cheesecake is good after dinner. Also the lack of options for people with food allergy issues is mentioned, but that sort of goes hand in hand I think with fewer menu options. I suspect that the best way to handle that is to go with pre-trip food selection and ordering from a larger set of choices to select from.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> I still wonder why people imagine the bizarre when a specific plan has been articulated by the management. It is OK that some don't like it, but coming up with utter nonsense is not the way to handle ones grief. Way too much fake news going around even without us contributing our own.


Isn't the implication that people are "grieving" over this its own form of "fake news?"


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still wonder why people imagine the bizarre when a specific plan has been articulated by the management. It is OK that some don't like it, but coming up with utter nonsense is not the way to handle ones grief. Way too much fake news going around even without us contributing our own.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the implication that people are "grieving" over this its own form of "fake news?"
Click to expand...

Yeah, they are doing something. Sorry for characterizing it as grieving. I hereby withdraw that characterization. Would "expressing their displeasure" be more appropriate? or would that be fake too?


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> That is pretty close to what they have said is their plan. As for when they get there, who knows?


I keep hearing this is what their plan is. Question is, why make the change at all before you've figured out how to do what you plan to change it to?

I'm planning to replace my car with a new one in 18 months when the lease is up. That doesn't mean I stop driving my car NOW and use a frickin' bike until I "figure out" what car I want next!!!


----------



## jis

JoeBas said:


> I keep hearing this is what their plan is. Question is, why make the change at all before you've figured out how to do what you plan to change it to?


I suspect it is because of a wrongheaded (in my opinion) hurry to cut costs before some artificial deadline. I have seen that happen more than once at several of my various employers in the past.

What is important is to make sure things move forward to the stated plan sooner rather than later.

I would prefer to see an appropriate fare adjustment too, but I am sure that hell will probably freeze over before then.


----------



## Lonestar648

Loading airplane HOT entrees into the kitchens on either the Superliner or the VII could require a modification so like the airlines, the container can just be exchanged quickly. Amtrak kitchens are designed for bulk storage with a cook preparing the individual meals. If Amtrak obtained a few of the storage containers that would fit into the Amtrak existing ovens, even if just temporarily rigged for a test, hot entrees could be a possibility. What may be going on behind the scenes, that we do not have access to know, is a project team is working with vendors to rig up an airline style oven that will work for the CL and the LSL. Obviously, there are issues, maybe power conversion, location, type, etc. that have to be worked out. Hopefully this is the case, so when a solution has been successfully tested they can announce hot entrees will be available once the caterer is ready.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Don't all Amtrak Diners have a Convection oven that is used to heat all Hot items served aboard?

Why would a special airline type set up be necessary when the meals could be loaded aboard,and heated just like they are now on Acela FC, the Card and the CONO!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The current entrees on the LSL and CL look way better than what I had on the City of New Orleans.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Don't all Amtrak Diners have a Convection oven that is used to heat all Hot items served aboard?
> 
> Why would a special airline type set up be necessary when the meals could be loaded aboard,and heated just like they are now on Acela FC, the Card and the CONO!


Acela FC uses airline style food racks AFAICT.


----------



## Lonestar648

Question is, are the convection ovens on the two Dining Cars compatible. I do not believe that they are.


----------



## railiner

Bob Dylan said:


> As for the post by me_little_me, as a Veteran of SPs infamous Automat Car, I certainly hope this is NEVER considered by Amtrak!





Devil's Advocate said:


> I wonder how today's AU would react to yesterday's automat cars. It's tempting to think we'd all be pretty negative about it but in reality I'd imagine there would still be a substantial contingent of members who considered automat meals a positive development and others who might be less than impressed but would still consider it a blessing to have any food included regardless of quality or selection.


At least you could heat up the food purchased from those vending machines, in the new-fangled, "Radaranges", IIRC....or were there just machines that sold the likes of hot cans of Chef-Boyardee? Not sure...


----------



## MARC Rider

AcrossTheOcean said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep the hot entrees chilled until it is time to heat them. Then you move the entrees in foil packets out of the refrigerator and into the convection oven and turn it on.
> I doubt that the hot entrees served toward the end of long-haul flights are kept warm the whole time. Instead, they are kept cold (loaded frozen?) and then reheated at the appropriate time in a convection oven. I figure on an aircraft the entrees are delivered on some sort of rack and stored in the oven itself until it is time to turn it on.
> 
> In case it has been a while since you were last on a long-haul flight with complimentary meal service, the flight attendants go down the aisles with a cart. Some levels of the cart have the meal trays with the sides and dessert already on them. Each passenger is asked which entree they want (if there is an option), and the associated foil packeted entree is added to the meal tray. If a SCA has a similar cart, it would make serving hot meals only slightly more complicated (on the upper level, at least) than an all-cold option. But flight attendants usually don't have to carry meals up or down stairs to serve them. A SCA would need to do so.
Click to expand...

Would hauling food carts between cars be a problem?


----------



## Steve4031

Those robots would be interesting to watch on rough track. One good jolt on a grade crossing or switching tracks could send robot and food flying. . .


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

MARC Rider said:


> AcrossTheOcean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep the hot entrees chilled until it is time to heat them. Then you move the entrees in foil packets out of the refrigerator and into the convection oven and turn it on.
> I doubt that the hot entrees served toward the end of long-haul flights are kept warm the whole time. Instead, they are kept cold (loaded frozen?) and then reheated at the appropriate time in a convection oven. I figure on an aircraft the entrees are delivered on some sort of rack and stored in the oven itself until it is time to turn it on.
> 
> In case it has been a while since you were last on a long-haul flight with complimentary meal service, the flight attendants go down the aisles with a cart. Some levels of the cart have the meal trays with the sides and dessert already on them. Each passenger is asked which entree they want (if there is an option), and the associated foil packeted entree is added to the meal tray. If a SCA has a similar cart, it would make serving hot meals only slightly more complicated (on the upper level, at least) than an all-cold option. But flight attendants usually don't have to carry meals up or down stairs to serve them. A SCA would need to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would hauling food carts between cars be a problem?
Click to expand...

Bumpy but probably doable.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD, how were your meals on the Capitol?


----------



## PVD

Hard to use phone on train, laptop in luggage, will hopefully do detailed report tomw, leaving Princeton Junction.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

railiner said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the post by me_little_me, as a Veteran of SPs infamous Automat Car, I certainly hope this is NEVER considered by Amtrak!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how today's AU would react to yesterday's automat cars. It's tempting to think we'd all be pretty negative about it but in reality I'd imagine there would still be a substantial contingent of members who considered automat meals a positive development and others who might be less than impressed but would still consider it a blessing to have any food included regardless of quality or selection.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At least you could heat up the food purchased from those vending machines, in the new-fangled, "Radaranges", IIRC....or were there just machines that sold the likes of hot cans of Chef-Boyardee? Not sure...
Click to expand...

Vending machine technology has made impressive leaps forward since the days of the automat cars (I believe the Santa Fe ran them as well), but as far as I'm concerned, no matter how fancy it is or what comes out of it, it is still a vending machine


----------



## OBS

Lonestar648 said:


> Question is, are the convection ovens on the two Dining Cars compatible. I do not believe that they are.


They are. There are a few different styles/sizes. but it is still a basic convection oven....


----------



## VentureForth

Devil's Advocate said:


> Have you ever actually eaten prison chow? How about a county jail kitchen tray? If yes by all meals spill the beans, but if not can you please stop with this overreaching message diluting nonsense? Jail and prison food is horrible and if you'd ever actually had any you'd stop talking about it in a positive light.


I have (County jail kitchen tray). Some of the best Spaghetti I ever had.


----------



## VentureForth

My only gripe at the moment the way things stand right now -

I'm diabetic. Limited to 15g Carbs/meal or else subject myself to a lifetime of insulin.

A slice of toast has 15g carbs. Nothing on the breakfast menu is low carb. Most important meal of the day, right?

A healthy omelette, eggs, bacon, sans bread is carb free.

100 million diabetics in the US vs 4 million who need gluten free. Yet the celiacs get the attention and personal menus.

BRING IN WAFFLE HOUSE.


----------



## TinCan782

This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!

_*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_

_*We’re revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_

http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/


----------



## cpotisch

FrensicPic said:


> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*We’re revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/


That's definitely a huge step up from what's currently being offered on the Regionals, and is arguably superior in some ways to what we have on the Cap and Lake Shore. It still has the issue of *one* vegetarian option for lunch/dinner, however that option is also gluten free, and (the ones that should be) are all hot. Glad to see that corridor passengers get an upgrade, even if they're not the ones who really need it.


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*We’re revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/
> 
> 
> 
> That's definitely a huge step up from what's currently being offered on the Regionals, and is arguably superior in some ways to what we have on the Cap and Lake Shore. It still has the issue of *one* vegetarian option for lunch/dinner, however that option is also gluten free, and (the ones that should be) are all hot. Glad to see that corridor passengers get an upgrade, even if they're not the ones who really need it.
Click to expand...

Really? Corridor passengers not the ones that really need it? Everyone is an Amtrak rider. Two things come to mind though. The regionals badly needed an upgraded menu (Boars Head sandwiches are really good). Second, the states control a lot of the non NEC corridors and therefore have a lot of say in what Amtrak can invest into the food service product so it isn't as easy for Amtrak to roll this out to the other trains. My guess is we'll see upgrades to the LD cafes come soon enough.


----------



## cpotisch

bretton88 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!_*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*__*Were revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/
> 
> 
> 
> That's definitely a huge step up from what's currently being offered on the Regionals, and is arguably superior in some ways to what we have on the Cap and Lake Shore. It still has the issue of *one* vegetarian option for lunch/dinner, however that option is also gluten free, and (the ones that should be) are all hot. Glad to see that corridor passengers get an upgrade, even if they're not the ones who really need it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Corridor passengers not the ones that really need it? Everyone is an Amtrak rider. Two things come to mind though. The regionals badly needed an upgraded menu (Boars Head sandwiches are really good). Second, the states control a lot of the non NEC corridors and therefore have a lot of say in what Amtrak can invest into the food service product so it isn't as easy for Amtrak to roll this out to the other trains. My guess is we'll see upgrades to the LD cafes come soon enough.
Click to expand...

If youre on a train for as much as 22 hours, Im going to say that you probably need more than someone whos on it for a maximum of 10 hours. Im not saying that the existing offerings on the Regionals were good, but I believe that LD trains _need_ decent food more than the short distance ones.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

A 10 hour regional may go through more meal periods than a 22 hour long distance.

By the way... If you look on Instagram, I think amtrak added these items to the cafe menu on the capitol back on June 1 as well (probably the LSL too). I see La Croix, vegan peanut noodle bowl, etc.


----------



## bretton88

crescent-zephyr said:


> A 10 hour regional may go through more meal periods than a 22 hour long distance.
> 
> By the way... If you look on Instagram, I think amtrak added these items to the cafe menu on the capitol back on June 1 as well (probably the LSL too). I see La Croix, vegan peanut noodle bowl, etc.


PVD mentioned an enhanced cafe menu, just no one has said specifics yet on the board.


----------



## Tarm

Rode the CL on June 2nd. Tried the beef salad box. The cold beef was great but since I don't like mustard dressing I skipped the green salad. The potato salad had the skins on the potatoes (which upset my stomach) so I skipped that also. The cheese cake was a nice dessert. Ate the beef, ate the cheese cake, dumped the rest.

Came back on June 7th. Tried the chicken salad box. The cold chicken was great but since I don't like Caesar dressing I skipped the green salad. The pasta had raw onions in it (which upset my stomach) so I skipped that also. Once again the cheese cake was good. Ate the chicken, ate the cheese cake, dumped the rest.

It was sad to discard so much food. If I had a choice of salad dressings I could have enjoyed the green salads but they did not. In the future I will be going to the cafe car and ordering an Angus cheese burger. I'll then take the beef tenderloin out of the beef salad box and add it to my cheese burger. That will make a very nice beef burger. Keep the cheese cake for dessert and dump the rest.


----------



## cpotisch

Tarm said:


> and dump the rest.


Or maybe offer it to someone in need when you get off the train.


----------



## RichieRich

It seems everything on the food pyramid "...upset my stomach"! You should really consider the Soylent Green crackers. (shhhh....it's People!) LOL


----------



## SarahZ

RichieRich said:


> It seems everything on the food pyramid "...upset my stomach"! You should really consider the Soylent Green crackers. (shhhh....it's People!) LOL


Potatoes and onions are hardly "everything on the food pyramid".


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Is The dressing already mixed into the salad? Or there is only 1 choice of dressing but it is pre-packaged?


----------



## PVD

I rode the CL leaving Chicago 6-1, dinner and breakfast. There was a manager on board interviewing passengers about the meals. We had a good conversation. I agree that the quality of the individual items was pretty good, but the combinations resulted ion unbalanced nutrition or issues for certain types of diets. The ability to swap a few items within the range would probably satisfy most customers. an example I gave was the blueberry muffin, you could have a plain muffin, with a small basket of various jams and spreads. The chicken and the beef were both decent looking, but each one was pre packed with a specific dressing, again, a few choices in a basket (like the current set for the green salad on regular trains) would not add much to cost or labor. Lock in to one desert, with no lower calorie or sugar free alternative is a real problem for a pretty broad population as is the very high sodium content. Overly high sodium and fat content in prepared foods is a pretty common problem, most people accept that when traveling, but the lack of choice did seem to bother people more. I know lots of people have different dietary needs, and you can't make everyone happy ( and shouldn't waste your time trying) but providing a some choices as well as readable information would be a big help to a broad range of travelers. Whether or not changes will happen, I don't know, but at least someone was out on the front lines taking voluminous notes.


----------



## cpotisch

SarahZ said:


> RichieRich said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems everything on the food pyramid "...upset my stomach"! You should really consider the Soylent Green crackers. (shhhh....it's People!) LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Potatoes and onions are hardly "everything on the food pyramid".
Click to expand...

More specifically, raw onions and potato skins. That really doesn't strike me as everything on the food pyramid.


----------



## IndyLions

FrensicPic said:


> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*We’re revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/


Looks darn good to me. I’d take those options any day - especially if offered in the LSL Sleeper Lounge.

Stupid question - how feasible would it be to offer some sort of dedicated sleeper lounge on the CL? Not feasible at all unless the Cap eventually goes VL (once more VLII Sleepers are available)?


----------



## PVD

The dressing was in a cup packed with the salad. That's part of the point. Since it wasn't on the salad already, what would have been the harm in having a few choices on a tray. Nobody is more conscious of item cost and labor than the fast food industry, but if you order chicken nuggets or tenders, or a salad, one of the first questions is "which sauce or dressing?' Chicken Caesar Salad side was orzo pasta salad with diced onions, I got red skin potato salad. Would it kill them to have it so they could be swapped ? Actually, unless you have a dietary issue, the potato skin is a good thing nutritionally.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That's been my #1 complaint too. I would want the chicken salad but I can't have pasta salad, but I can have potato salad. I also can't have cheesecake. On the previous amtrak diner menu I could always get ice cream, until they took it away... Or the gluten free vanilla pudding. Now I'm stuck with no dessert.

The options themselves, individually, sound ok.

Even at breakfast, I can't have the breads. I wish I could at least get 2 yogurts if that's all I can eat in the box other than the fruit and kind bar.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cpotisch said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RichieRich said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems everything on the food pyramid "...upset my stomach"! You should really consider the Soylent Green crackers. (shhhh....it's People!)
> 
> 
> 
> Potatoes and onions are hardly "everything on the food pyramid".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More specifically, raw onions and potato skins. That really doesn't strike me as everything on the food pyramid.
Click to expand...

I thought it was worth a chuckle. Sometimes this forum gets way too grumpy and nit picky, even for me.


----------



## PVD

Both the banana bread and the muffin seemed like good products, but I'm not of the opinion that it makes sense to have both. They had 2 popular brands of breakfast bars as well as granola for the yogurt. At least it was kept in a separate compartment so you could eat the yogurt without od'ing on granola. Fresh fruit plate was actually pretty good.


----------



## Steve4031

cpotisch said:


> Tarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> and dump the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe offer it to someone in need when you get off the train.
Click to expand...

Just what I need. More crap to carry after I get off of the train to hand to some pan handler.


----------



## PVD

On a train like the CL, you get breakfast but no lunch, not a stretch to see a few items stashed. I have a half bottle of wine left from dinner, you get a decent size bottle, not a single glass.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Steve4031 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> and dump the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe offer it to someone in need when you get off the train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just what I need. More crap to carry after I get off of the train to hand to some pan handler.
Click to expand...

Haha! Exactly.

"Oh Here's the greens from my salad and some non-skinned pototes I was served 14 hours ago. Enjoy!"


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> On a train like the CL, you get breakfast but no lunch, not a stretch to see a few items stashed. I have a half bottle of wine left from dinner, you get a decent size bottle, not a single glass.


Has that been confirmed by anyone?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a train like the CL, you get breakfast but no lunch, not a stretch to see a few items stashed. I have a half bottle of wine left from dinner, you get a decent size bottle, not a single glass.
> 
> 
> 
> Has that been confirmed by anyone?
Click to expand...

Probably himself. He was just on the CL.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Oh that's right! Ha. I forgot it was him.

Pvd- where did you detrain? Can you confirm that no lunch is offered on the Eastbound CL?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh that's right! Ha. I forgot it was him.
> 
> Pvd- where did you detrain? Can you confirm that no lunch is offered on the Eastbound CL?


He detrained in WAS and the train was running, I think 3 hours, late due to the downed tree in PA, and he said there was no lunch.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ahh interesting. I was hoping they would serve a lunch on the CL since even when it's on time it's during lunch hours. Shame.

(It always annoyed me how every time I rode the Capitol it was a different rule enforced by each crew. One of the diner crews told me that the actual rule was they had to remain open until Harpers Ferry, regardless of the time. Not sure if that was actually the rule, but it seemed to make sense to me.)


----------



## PVD

I was interviewed by a line service manager about the meal service, and I did bring up the lunch question. She told me that they ran a long breakfast normally, but if the train was very late, they would offer sleeper passengers a simplified lunch service. (burger, veggie burger, hot dog) With the current setup, there isn't really anything to offer, no lunch is on board to offer.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Which is a major downgrade. Going from a simplified lunch (or, as was the case sometimes a "brunch") to "sorry we don't have anything to offer you"


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> and dump the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe offer it to someone in need when you get off the train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just what I need. More crap to carry after I get off of the train to hand to some pan handler.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Haha! Exactly. "Oh Here's the greens from my salad and some non-skinned pototes I was served 14 hours ago. Enjoy!"
Click to expand...

I've handed various items from my included sleeper meals to coach passengers before. Mainly canned drinks and desserts but sometimes salads or sandwiches and whatnot. Took all of five minutes and never had anything returned yet.


----------



## PVD

Yes, it is. I was told they are trying to work out a system to get food aboard down the line if they know the train will be very late early enough into the trip. Might not have helped us, it may have been too late into the trip when the delays piled on, but at least they are aware that it is a legit issue.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Beef stew with rice? Or KFC.

Oh wait the beef stew needs a cook...


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Beef stew with rice? Or KFC.
> 
> Oh wait the beef stew needs a cook...


What do you mean? Dinty Moore is canned and doesn't require much cooking at all. It's served when they can't get food to the train. So it doesn't really need a cook. And they don't choose one over the other. Sorry if I missed something.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Late trains have (use to) carry beef stew, and bags of rice. If the train was very late, the dining crew would prepare a meal of Beef Stew on Rice for the passengers.

KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) seem to be the go to place when the coolers fail on a train. So if your diner is unable to provide you a meal. KFC is a common replacement.

No cook on the Capital Limited due to the box meal plan, nobody to prepare a meal of Beef Stew for a late arrival in Washington DC.

Nice edit change your ? to a long drawn out statement.


----------



## jis

I guess now they will have to carry jumbo bags of Lays, Cheetos and Beef Jerky or something like that as emergency ration.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> I guess now they will have to carry jumbo bags of Lays, Cheetos and Beef Jerky or something like that as emergency ration.


Or....some surplus "MRE"'s from the Defense Department....


----------



## Tarm

Devil's Advocate said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> and dump the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe offer it to someone in need when you get off the train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just what I need. More crap to carry after I get off of the train to hand to some pan handler.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Haha! Exactly. "Oh Here's the greens from my salad and some non-skinned pototes I was served 14 hours ago. Enjoy!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've handed various items from my included sleeper meals to coach passengers before. Mainly canned drinks and desserts but sometimes salads or sandwiches and whatnot. Took all of five minutes and never had anything returned yet.
Click to expand...

That is just the point. I wouldn't have to dump anything if I only took what I wanted. Amtrak needs to unbox the boxed meals. The SCA could take every ones order plus a dinner time. Passengers could walk to the diner car, hand over the order form to the "server" and he could box up the meal that you ordered. Everything is in closed containers already so it is just a matter of putting the chosen items into a serving box. This is already done with the drinks, Amtrak just needs to extend it to the food items.


----------



## PVD

On the CL, the SCA was trying to do some of that. He was filling out slips and bringing them to the diner so some advance work could get done and folks could just walk in and pick up. A single LSA had difficulty keeping up because drinks have to be prepared, some people want the meals on trays to sit with, some want tote bags, and the SCA has to run some back to peoples' rooms. Plus, because there is no control over when you can get food, 10 people can show up at once, as well as the pre order slips from the SCA and then no one for a half hour. At the same time, people walk in for comp non alcoholic beverages, or their free drink or wine.


----------



## tommylicious

PVD said:


> On the CL, the SCA was trying to do some of that. He was filling out slips and bringing them to the diner so some advance work could get done and folks could just walk in and pick up. A single LSA had difficulty keeping up because drinks have to be prepared, some people want the meals on trays to sit with, some want tote bags, and the SCA has to run some back to peoples' rooms. Plus, because there is no control over when you can get food, 10 people can show up at once, as well as the pre order slips from the SCA and then no one for a half hour. At the same time, people walk in for comp non alcoholic beverages, or their free drink or wine.


Really don't like the sound of this.


----------



## PVD

Let's see what this looks like in a couple of months. They are observing, and asking, the listening and responding part is yet to be determined. So far I've had an interview with a manager on the train, and 2 e-mail surveys sent.


----------



## Bob Dylan

According to the 6/11 On-line Newletter from "Trains" ( details are hidden behind a Pay Wall) Amtrak plans to add "Hot" items to the Menus on the Cap and LSL.

No mention of just when or what items???


----------



## TinCan782

Bob Dylan said:


> According to the 6/11 On-line Newletter from "Trains" ( details are hidden behind a Pay Wall) Amtrak plans to add "Hot" items to the Menus on the Cap and LSL.
> 
> No mention of just when or what items???


Jalapenos or Habaneros?


----------



## keelhauled

FrensicPic said:


> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*Were revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/


Amtrak has posted the new cafe menu for the LSL and CL (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0618.pdf). It appears to be identical to the new Northeast menu, except without Boars Head branding and some slight price differences.


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*Were revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has posted the new cafe menu for the LSL and CL (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0618.pdf). It appears to be identical to the new Northeast menu, except without Boars Head branding and some slight price differences.
Click to expand...

It really would be so easy to offer passengers a complimentary hot meal from the cafe car, if they so choose. I just don't get why they haven't done that.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cpotisch said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*Were revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has posted the new cafe menu for the LSL and CL (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0618.pdf). It appears to be identical to the new Northeast menu, except without Boars Head branding and some slight price differences.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It really would be so easy to offer passengers a complimentary hot meal from the cafe car, if they so choose. I just don't get why they haven't done that.
Click to expand...

I'd assume this is related to accounting and spoilage, but maybe they'll consider allowing it as part of the previously teased pre-travel meal selection option. Perhaps if you were willing to forgo the sleeper meal they'd allow you to exchange that benefit for a cafe credit.


----------



## Steve4031

That is an interesting upgrade that cafe menu. While I don’t care for the sleeping car meals I could supplement those with snack car food. On one or two trips on 449 between Boston and Albany, the LSA allowed me to substitute a cheeseburger from the cafe when I did not like the sleeping car meal. This was done seamlessly without fuss. Each time I offered to pay.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

keelhauled said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks better than a Fresh Choice AmBox on the CL/LSL!. The corridors get the attention and good stuff!
> 
> _*The New Corridor Café Menu Hungry travelers rejoice!*_
> 
> _*Were revamping the menu on our Acela Express and Northeast Regional trains to bring you healthier, gourmet options!*_
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2018/06/new-corridor-cafe-menu/
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has posted the new cafe menu for the LSL and CL (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Lake-Shore-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0618.pdf). It appears to be identical to the new Northeast menu, except without Boars Head branding and some slight price differences.
Click to expand...

Except for the stadium/theater pricing, it is not a bad looking menu. A nice variety of offerings.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

2 hard boiled eggs for four dollars.


----------



## orm518

Recently traveled on the CL on the first weekend of the new dining format. I submitted some feedback, some complaints, some praise, and received this response from Amtrak that seems to confirm it is moving towards pre-selecting meals, etc., and other things speculated at here:

"Amtrak is introducing new dining options this summer on board these routes. Amtrak aims to provide a more sustainable approach that produces less waste while maintaining the quality that our passengers have come to expect. These new offerings are intended to provide a more contemporary food service and will contribute to improved financial performance on these routes. The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers. Customers purchasing premium service will have additional amenities including exclusive access to tables in the sleeper lounge or in the private comfort of our passenger’s accommodations. In the future, customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure. Our new service will allow additional investment into these routes to further improve the passenger experience.

Customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon."


----------



## VentureForth

A few very random thoughts:

- New Sleeper menu on CL and LSL have NO low carb breakfast items for diabetics.

- What a waste of awesome, brand new Viewliner Diners!

- Hope the ability to get a burger from the cafe car becomes official until better "hot" items become available.

- New NEC cafe car menu should be available on Star, Meteor & Palmetto - especially the Star that has no diner.

- I'm going to be on the Meteor in 10 days, and I'm going to cherish the status quo while it still exists!


----------



## jis

I am hearing that the new Cafe menu, minus the specific Boars Head branding, has started appearing in the LD Cafes too. This may or may not be accurate since it is something that I consider hearsay at present having heard of such reports from a couple of people who traveled by one of those trains recently. But I thought it is interesting enough to share with y'all.

Two people who traveled by the LSL said that the Sleeper Lounge was very well patronized and the old tradition of meeting and chatting with fellow passengers over a meal or drink goes on, except that now you can do it all day instead of just at meal time. So at least these two people liked it. They thought that if the menu was improved a bit this would be overall an improvement over the past. Again, hearsay, but thought was worth sharing.


----------



## keelhauled

I tried to put my money where my mouth is and book sleeper on the LSL for an ALB-TOL-DET-CHI-ALB trip late next month, but it seems that the food changes have not led to a mass exodus from sleepers, as they were all sold out. Guess I'll be able to experience the new cafe menu anyway.


----------



## cpotisch

orm518 said:


> Recently traveled on the CL on the first weekend of the new dining format. I submitted some feedback, some complaints, some praise, and received this response from Amtrak that seems to confirm it is moving towards pre-selecting meals, etc., and other things speculated at here:
> 
> "Amtrak is introducing new dining options this summer on board these routes. Amtrak aims to provide a more sustainable approach that produces less waste while maintaining the quality that our passengers have come to expect. These new offerings are intended to provide a more contemporary food service and will contribute to improved financial performance on these routes. The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers. Customers purchasing premium service will have additional amenities including exclusive access to tables in the sleeper lounge or in the private comfort of our passenger’s accommodations. In the future, customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure. Our new service will allow additional investment into these routes to further improve the passenger experience.
> 
> Customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon."


Firstly, welcome to AU.




Secondly, that seems to be the exact same email as every other member who has sent Amtrak feedback about the new system. Classy.


----------



## Railroad Bill

Since they are not going to reduce sleeper fares on the LSL & CL, I wonder if anyone considered a voucher for $$ to be used in the cafe car for those who do not care for the new menu? I am sure it would cause havoc for cafe bookkeeping but might reduce the number of complaints.


----------



## TinCan782

cpotisch said:


> orm518 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Recently traveled on the CL on the first weekend of the new dining format. I submitted some feedback, some complaints, some praise, and received this response from Amtrak that seems to confirm it is moving towards pre-selecting meals, etc., and other things speculated at here:
> 
> "Amtrak is introducing new dining options this summer on board these routes. Amtrak aims to provide a more sustainable approach that produces less waste while maintaining the quality that our passengers have come to expect. These new offerings are intended to provide a more contemporary food service and will contribute to improved financial performance on these routes. The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers. Customers purchasing premium service will have additional amenities including exclusive access to tables in the sleeper lounge or in the private comfort of our passenger’s accommodations. In the future, customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure. Our new service will allow additional investment into these routes to further improve the passenger experience.
> 
> Customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon."
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, welcome to AU.
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, that seems to be the exact same email as every other member who has sent Amtrak feedback about the new system. Classy.
Click to expand...

Yep, same as I received on June 1 from a Customer Relations Specialist (should I reveal the name?).


----------



## TiBike

Railroad Bill said:


> Since they are not going to reduce sleeper fares on the LSL & CL, I wonder if anyone considered a voucher for $$ to be used in the cafe car for those who do not care for the new menu? I am sure it would cause havoc for cafe bookkeeping but might reduce the number of complaints.


How many complaints are they getting from passengers who have actually ridden those trains and had the new meals? I've seen very little negative comment from actual passengers, even on this board.


----------



## VentureForth

Railroad Bill said:


> Since they are not going to reduce sleeper fares on the LSL & CL, I wonder if anyone considered a voucher for $$ to be used in the cafe car for those who do not care for the new menu? I am sure it would cause havoc for cafe bookkeeping but might reduce the number of complaints.


Has "anyone" considered it? All us back seat riders...but apparently not anyone in a position of the ability to do anything about it, except for the experience by one here in this thread who was able to get a burger from the Café car with the cooperation of his SCA.
Of course, none of we the proles are privy to internal discussions at Corporate. I'm sure someone has thought about it, but enough to make a real change? Hmmm...we're likely unable to know unless we see a change.


----------



## Railroad Bill

We shall see after a few weeks to see what the consensus of opinions will be. I know that with the dietary issues I have, the current new menu will not work well. And there will always be those who enjoyed the former menus, the chance to meet new people over a nice dinner, and the ambiance of eating in the diner that will be gone.


----------



## Steve4031

I would enjoy sitting in the diner as an alternative to my room. Especially when the room is on one side and scenery is on the other.


----------



## jis

Railroad Bill said:


> We shall see after a few weeks to see what the consensus of opinions will be. I know that with the dietary issues I have, the current new menu will not work well. And there will always be those who enjoyed the former menus, the chance to meet new people over a nice dinner, and the ambiance of eating in the diner that will be gone.


Apparently the ability to meet and talk to new people is not something that is reduced by this change. Indeed it is perhaps enhanced since now you can do it at anytime rather than only at designated meal time. This has been mentioned by a few who have actually ridden the trains with the new setup.So I think that issue about meeting and chatting with fellow passengers is a red herring at best. Yeah the ambiance will be different but the ability to meet and chat, not so much.


----------



## PVD

I had good conversations in the diner with fellow passengers, one difference was the absence of coach passengers. Those exchanges now took place in the SSL.


----------



## amtrakpass

"So I think that issue about meeting and chatting with fellow passengers is a red herring at best. Yeah the ambiance will be different but the ability to meet and chat, not so much"

Except for coach passengers who do not have access to a true lounge car.

And also there is something about sharing a meal which helps people open up and talk to each other more so then if they are just hanging out in the lounge car.

Which is not unique to rail travel. Why is it people like to go on dates over a meal rather than just meeting up. Because it helps people get to know each other.

That being said, if it must be changed I would be much happier if coach passengers either had access to this or another full lounge car of their own


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Those exchanges now took place in the SSL.


But on the LSL, all we've got to lounge in is one half of an AmCan. And since the windows are smaller and there's less space than in coach, I doubt many people will be hanging out there. It's still possible to talk with coach pax, but it's a lot harder.


----------



## TiBike

On the other hand, there is much to be said for limiting such sharing, opening up and dates to consenting adults.



amtrakpass said:


> And also there is something about sharing a meal which helps people open up and talk to each other more so then if they are just hanging out in the lounge car.
> 
> Which is not unique to rail travel. Why is it people like to go on dates over a meal rather than just meeting up. Because it helps people get to know each other.


----------



## jis

You can still chat over a meal in addition to chatting over a drink at any other time. Admittedly the choices for the meal leaves a bit to be desired as mentioned earlier.

At the risk of sounding a bit elitist, I am not sure that not having Coach passengers in the Sleeper lounge is a huge loss, just like not having them in the CS PPC was not a huge loss either.

I think it would be desirable though, to add a full length Lounge to the LSL in addition to the half Lounge that is used currently.


----------



## PVD

Keep in mind that my only meal aboard the LSL this trip was breakfast before Chicago since I boarded after midnight.I did no lounge visit. The CL trip Chicago to WAS was really a better chance for me to be out of the room.


----------



## orm518

VentureForth said:


> A few very random thoughts:
> 
> - New Sleeper menu on CL and LSL have NO low carb breakfast items for diabetics.


Agree. I'm a Type 1 diabetic, so sure I can give myself insulin, but a 100g carb breakfast is a ticket to nowheresville without some toes in 30 years. Luckily, the attendant let me choose the Antipasto Plate for breakfast, I asked nicely, I didn't play the medical card, but in the future I might if I had to.


----------



## TiBike

Hasn't made it to the Starlight yet, darn it. Maybe on the return trip this weekend? I can hope, can't I?







jis said:


> I am hearing that the new Cafe menu, minus the specific Boars Head branding, has started appearing in the LD Cafes too. This may or may not be accurate since it is something that I consider hearsay at present having heard of such reports from a couple of people who traveled by one of those trains recently. But I thought it is interesting enough to share with y'all.


----------



## tricia

orm518 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few very random thoughts:
> 
> - New Sleeper menu on CL and LSL have NO low carb breakfast items for diabetics.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. I'm a Type 1 diabetic, so sure I can give myself insulin, but a 100g carb breakfast is a ticket to nowheresville without some toes in 30 years. Luckily, the attendant let me choose the Antipasto Plate for breakfast, I asked nicely, I didn't play the medical card, but in the future I might if I had to.
Click to expand...

Choose your poison. That antipasto plate has a formidable amount of salt.


----------



## PVD

Since they are loading prepared meals on the train for ticketed passengers, some sort of request system beyond kosher meal is a sensible idea. There are other religious considerations as well as health related dietary concerns that are not uncommon. It would be folly to try and satisfy everyone, it is not realistic, but their are some pretty common issues that are currently not addressed by the current system.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

This is a list of common codes for special airline meals that I believe remain in effect even today, at least for long haul intercontinental travel on foreign legacy carriers. On US carriers these requests may be honored but in my experience they simply take the normal meal and then remove everything that doesn't match the special meal code. So if you order a VGML you might receive a fruit cup, a salad, and a roll instead of a purpose made entree.


AVML - Asian Vegetarian Meal
BBML - Baby / Infant Food
BLML - Bland Meal
CHML - Children’s Meal
DBML - Diabetic Meal
GFML - Gluten-free Meal
HNML - Hindu Meal
KSML - Kosher (Jewish) Meal
LFML - Low Fat Meal
LSML - Low Sodium Meal
MOML - Muslim (Halal) Meal
NLML - Non-Lactose Meal
VGML - Vegetarian Meal (non-dairy)
VLML – Vegetarian Lacto-ovo Meal
VVML – Vegetarian Vegan Meal


----------



## PVD

There is some overlap, and there certainly is no need to go that broad in Amtrak (as an example, infants aren't fare paying passengers, there is no compelling reason to offer baby /infant meals) A vegan meal by definition would have no dairy, and satisfy religious needs of Hindu as to vegetarianism. It wouldn't be that hard to have a reasonable assortment of preselects.


----------



## gatelouse

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> 2 hard boiled eggs for four dollars. [emoji12]


$4 on LD menu, $5 on the Corridor menu. 
Wonder which menu and prices we’ll encounter on the Palmetto and Star.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

gatelouse said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 hard boiled eggs for four dollars. [emoji12]
> 
> 
> 
> $4 on LD menu, $5 on the Corridor menu.
> Wonder which menu and prices well encounter on the Palmetto and Star.
Click to expand...

Two hard boiled eggs are $1.39 at the Speedway here in Effingham IL.


----------



## Steve4031

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> gatelouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 hard boiled eggs for four dollars. [emoji12]
> 
> 
> 
> $4 on LD menu, $5 on the Corridor menu.
> Wonder which menu and prices well encounter on the Palmetto and Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two hard boiled eggs are $1.39 at the Speedway here in Effingham IL.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately none of those trains goes near effingham . . .


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gatelouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 hard boiled eggs for four dollars. [emoji12]
> 
> 
> 
> $4 on LD menu, $5 on the Corridor menu.
> Wonder which menu and prices well encounter on the Palmetto and Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two hard boiled eggs are $1.39 at the Speedway here in Effingham IL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately none of those trains goes near effingham . . .
Click to expand...

If they did, everyone could jump off the train at Effingham, get their eggs and jump back on. might even improve the economy of Effingham, coming to think of it.




All in jest of course


----------



## JayPea

Moot point for me concerning hard boiled eggs because I'd eat rat poison before I'd eat a hard boiled egg. When I need protein, as I would were I to partake in the CL or LSL's breakfasts, I would have either a handful or two of almonds or low fat turkey pepperoni bites.


----------



## cpotisch

The fact of the matter is that the fewer the options available, the fewer the people who can eat it. Food is usually not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing, and when there's a grand total of one option for breakfast, it's pretty much guaranteed that plenty of people won't be able to eat it. Even if they had a measly two options for breakfast, it could become orders of magnitude more inclusive.

I'm cautiously optimistic that if/when Amtrak starts letting passengers choose their meals in advance, they could significantly widen the selection while achieving virtually no waste. But in the meantime, the system strikes me as at least as inefficient as running a dining car when it comes to waste, while drastically reducing the selection and "compatibility" with dietary restrictions. Just my take on it.


----------



## VentureForth

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is a list of common codes for special airline meals that I believe remain in effect even today, at least for long haul intercontinental travel on foreign legacy carriers. On US carriers these requests may be honored but in my experience they simply take the normal meal and then remove everything that doesn't match the special meal code. So if you order a VGML you might receive a fruit cup, a salad, and a roll instead of a purpose made entree.
> 
> 
> AVML - Asian Vegetarian Meal
> BBML - Baby / Infant Food
> BLML - Bland Meal
> CHML - Children’s Meal
> DBML - Diabetic Meal
> GFML - Gluten-free Meal
> HNML - Hindu Meal
> KSML - Kosher (Jewish) Meal
> LFML - Low Fat Meal
> LSML - Low Sodium Meal
> MOML - Muslim (Halal) Meal
> NLML - Non-Lactose Meal
> VGML - Vegetarian Meal (non-dairy)
> VLML – Vegetarian Lacto-ovo Meal
> VVML – Vegetarian Vegan Meal


Appreciate that. The fact that there are 100,000,000 diabetics in the US (That's one in THREE!), it seems to be a choice that would be better accepted across many cultural and religious boundaries. Atkins, Paleo, Keto all fall into the low carb thing.

It's not just Amtrak. Gluten Free and low fat seem to trump low carb everywhere - grocery stores, restaurants, fast food, etc, and it's understandable. There is almost no other way to hold protein than with a tortilla, bread or a bun. Low carb versions of those are VERY expensive.


----------



## orm518

VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a list of common codes for special airline meals that I believe remain in effect even today, at least for long haul intercontinental travel on foreign legacy carriers. On US carriers these requests may be honored but in my experience they simply take the normal meal and then remove everything that doesn't match the special meal code. So if you order a VGML you might receive a fruit cup, a salad, and a roll instead of a purpose made entree.
> 
> 
> AVML - Asian Vegetarian Meal
> BBML - Baby / Infant Food
> BLML - Bland Meal
> CHML - Children’s Meal
> DBML - Diabetic Meal
> GFML - Gluten-free Meal
> HNML - Hindu Meal
> KSML - Kosher (Jewish) Meal
> LFML - Low Fat Meal
> LSML - Low Sodium Meal
> MOML - Muslim (Halal) Meal
> NLML - Non-Lactose Meal
> VGML - Vegetarian Meal (non-dairy)
> VLML – Vegetarian Lacto-ovo Meal
> VVML – Vegetarian Vegan Meal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appreciate that. The fact that there are 100,000,000 diabetics in the US (That's one in THREE!), it seems to be a choice that would be better accepted across many cultural and religious boundaries. Atkins, Paleo, Keto all fall into the low carb thing.
> 
> It's not just Amtrak. Gluten Free and low fat seem to trump low carb everywhere - grocery stores, restaurants, fast food, etc, and it's understandable. There is almost no other way to hold protein than with a tortilla, bread or a bun. Low carb versions of those are VERY expensive.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, the Centers for Disease Control report that I think you're referring to stated that 70 million of that 100 million figure were people with "prediabetes." There are an estimated 29 million diabetics (90-95% of those are Type 2 diabetics, there are believed to be about 3 million Type 1s according to JDRF) in the US.

"Prediabetes," is able to be put into remission, not cured, by changes in diet, exercise, and losing weight. Frankly, I think the 100 million figure is a scare tactic to these "pre-diabetics" and their doctors to get them to wake up and make these lifestyle changes. Also, by normalizing "pre-diabetes" it gets drug manufacturers new customers. It's like a bonanza for makers of Type 2 diabetes drugs, they instantly have 70 million new customers.

All that being said, the Amtrak meals could certainly be a little more balanced nutritionally between the macros (fat, carbs, protein) to the benefit of all.


----------



## PVD

One of the problems is separating the legitimate medical and religious needs of many people from those who are reacting to the latest magazine article or tv show they watched. Gluten free is a critical matter to someone with celiac sprue, but half the people who demand gluten free don't even know what it (gluten) is. I am very sympathetic to people who need to eat a certain way for medical or religious reasons, but if the the primary reason you want a special choice is a personal or cultural choice alone, you shouldn't expect special consideration in a mass market situation. I can satisfy many requirements or desires with a single good choice, as an example a quality vegan choice.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

So you should only be able to order a gluten free meal if you have a medical need for one?


----------



## PVD

No, I'm saying it may or may not be a good business practice to provide something customers want, and if the item requested bears added costs maybe they should pay extra for it. On the other hand if someone is required to order a special item for medical or religious reasons they should not be penalized. Ultimately, it is not Amtrak's duty, nor in its best interest to try and satisfy every individual with its food service, just the broadest possible range of passengers that can be served without a negative impact on the general passenger pool with the previously mentioned exceptions. I pointed out GF meals because they are widely requested, and not so widely required.


----------



## Steve4031

I would prefer a choice of clearly describing meals rather than the vague designation used by the airlines.

The descriptions used by Amtrak are fine. Just would like a better selection. I could see making choices on an internet booking pretty easily. This process would be cumbersome during a phone reservation.

The other issue is people making one selection ahead of time and then changing their mind once onboard.


----------



## Tarm

Steve4031 said:


> I would prefer a choice of clearly describing meals rather than the vague designation used by the airlines.
> 
> The descriptions used by Amtrak are fine. Just would like a better selection. I could see making choices on an internet booking pretty easily. This process would be cumbersome during a phone reservation


Yes, that would be a ideal solution. Say you have a choice of four main entrees, 4 sides and four desserts. You could mix and match to make up your internet meal order. The food provider would assemble you order and identify it. Each passenger would get exactly what they wanted and no wasted food.


----------



## tommylicious

This is 2018. Why is providing good food service such a challenge for Amtrak??? Railroads, 70 years ago, provided better food service than many land-based modern fine dining restaurants do today! Seriously....figure it out already and make it happen!


----------



## RPC

tommylicious said:


> This is 2018. Why is providing good food service such a challenge for Amtrak??? Railroads, 70 years ago, provided better food service than many land-based modern fine dining restaurants do today! Seriously....figure it out already and make it happen!


Yes, but those railroads used it as a loss leader. Amtrak is required BY LAW to at least break even on food service in less than two years.


----------



## jis

We are now quite seriously trying to get the law changed in the 2019 Appropriation.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> We are now quite seriously trying to get the law changed in the 2019 Appropriation.


I think that's a mistake. The funding is for transportation, not paying unnecessary wait staff to serve a meal directly comparable to Denny's or Ihop in quality.

The new program needs some work, which everyone seems to be aware of. But the old program was far from perfect and wasn't really worth what Amtrak was paying for it.


----------



## jis

Actually this is more to give freedom to Amtrak management to do the right thing to maximize use and revenue overall and reduce the need for overall subsidy rather than focusing on reducing F&B losses. If you think that is wrong then I disagree. Congress should not be micromanaging these sorts of things.


----------



## cpotisch

I think Im going to write Amtrak and suggest that they offer a complimentary meal from the lounge car as an alternative to one of the boxes meals. Also gonna suggest that they should allow a choice of dessert while I’m at it. Will it make any difference? Probably not. But might as well try.


----------



## Steve4031

I did that via email.


----------



## me_little_me

orm518 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few very random thoughts:
> 
> - New Sleeper menu on CL and LSL have NO low carb breakfast items for diabetics.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. I'm a Type 1 diabetic, so sure I can give myself insulin, but a 100g carb breakfast is a ticket to nowheresville without some toes in 30 years. Luckily, the attendant let me choose the Antipasto Plate for breakfast, I asked nicely, I didn't play the medical card, but in the future I might if I had to.
Click to expand...

It's not 100g of carbs, it's 99g of SUGAR!



PVD said:


> One of the problems is separating the legitimate medical and religious needs of many people from those who are reacting to the latest magazine article or tv show they watched. Gluten free is a critical matter to someone with celiac sprue, but half the people who demand gluten free don't even know what it (gluten) is. I am very sympathetic to people who need to eat a certain way for medical or religious reasons, but if the the primary reason you want a special choice is a personal or cultural choice alone, you shouldn't expect special consideration in a mass market situation. I can satisfy many requirements or desires with a single good choice, as an example a quality vegan choice.


Who cares? If the rule is you order it 24 hours before your train leaves the initial station, then does it matter why you want/need the special meal?


----------



## cpotisch

me_little_me said:


> orm518 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few very random thoughts:
> 
> - New Sleeper menu on CL and LSL have NO low carb breakfast items for diabetics.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. I'm a Type 1 diabetic, so sure I can give myself insulin, but a 100g carb breakfast is a ticket to nowheresville without some toes in 30 years. Luckily, the attendant let me choose the Antipasto Plate for breakfast, I asked nicely, I didn't play the medical card, but in the future I might if I had to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not 100g of carbs, it's 99g of SUGAR!
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the problems is separating the legitimate medical and religious needs of many people from those who are reacting to the latest magazine article or tv show they watched. Gluten free is a critical matter to someone with celiac sprue, but half the people who demand gluten free don't even know what it (gluten) is. I am very sympathetic to people who need to eat a certain way for medical or religious reasons, but if the the primary reason you want a special choice is a personal or cultural choice alone, you shouldn't expect special consideration in a mass market situation. I can satisfy many requirements or desires with a single good choice, as an example a quality vegan choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who cares? If the rule is you order it 24 hours before your train leaves the initial station, then does it matter why you want/need the special meal?
Click to expand...

If they have a limited number of meals on hand, it can make sense to (attempt to) limit them to those who need it.


----------



## PVD

I have no issue with pre ordering for special needs ( or pre ordering from a reasonable selection in general) but where pre ordering drives up costs just to satisfy peoples whims, why should the general population pay for that?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Isn't the purpose of having a menu selection to "satisfy people's whims"? It's not hard at all to provide gluten free, vegetarian, etc. options. All you have to do is provide... Options.


----------



## PVD

Only up to a point. Many fine restaurants have fairly small menus with a limited number of choices in varying categories. You can provide all the options in the world, but that drives costs through the roof, and that is exactly the opposite of what they are are trying to accomplish. A limited number of options hitting the categories that serve the widest range of passengers is all that can be reasonably expected. Example, a kosher meal is somewhat more expensive than a comparable regular meal. If it is required for religious needs, fine. But why should someone who doesn't require it be provided that meal with the cost impact affecting everyone.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> One of the problems is separating the legitimate medical and religious needs of many people from those who are reacting to the latest magazine article or tv show they watched. Gluten free is a critical matter to someone with celiac sprue, but half the people who demand gluten free don't even know what it (gluten) is. I am very sympathetic to people who need to eat a certain way for medical or religious reasons, but if the the primary reason you want a special choice is a personal or cultural choice alone, you shouldn't expect special consideration in a mass market situation. I can satisfy many requirements or desires with a single good choice, as an example a quality vegan choice.



What if my choice of religion is based on a magazine article or television show? The arbitrary low effort reasoning in this post falls apart in the very first sentence. From my perspective there are just as many illegitimate religions (and tax shelter schemes) as there are fad diets. What you see as a big bright line looks like a hazy logic defying gray area to me. With 24/48 hour predeparture ordering all of the meals above should be workable.


----------



## PVD

Like it or not that's the standard in use in this country


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Like it or not that's the standard in use in this country


Like it or not so are fad diets, but please don't let that stop you from educating the rest of us on the "standards" for religious legitimacy in this country.


----------



## PVD

I never said I agreed with it, I merely pointed out its existence and the unlikeliness of it changing in the near term.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Are you suggesting that amtrak asks "are you really jewish" when you order a Kosher Meal? I'm not sure if that's even legal.

Or are you suggesting that Kosher, vegan, etc. meals only be made available to passengers for an extra fee?


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are you suggesting that amtrak asks "are you really jewish" when you order a Kosher Meal? I'm not sure if that's even legal.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that Kosher, vegan, etc. meals only be made available to passengers for an extra fee?


I thought that what airlines often do is say that the special meals are for people who really need them, but dont actually verify it. They assume that most people will be honest, and it works out overall. I might be misunderstanding, but Im pretty sure thats who a lot of companies do it. I would also say that just because something is called a Kosher Meal doesnt mean you have to be Jewish to need it. If that meal doesnt have meat or some other ingredient that certain people cant eat, then that meal would make sense for them, even if they arent Kosher or Jewish. My point is, you can have a system that relies on most people being honest about if they really need a certain option, without having a full verification process of their religion or medical details.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that amtrak asks "are you really jewish" when you order a Kosher Meal? I'm not sure if that's even legal.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that Kosher, vegan, etc. meals only be made available to passengers for an extra fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that what airlines often do is say that the special meals are for people who really need them, but dont actually verify it. They assume that most people will be honest, and it works out overall. I might be misunderstanding, but Im pretty sure thats who a lot of companies do it. I would also say that just because something is called a Kosher Meal doesnt mean you have to be Jewish to need it. If that meal doesnt have meat or some other ingredient that certain people cant eat, then that meal would make sense for them, even if they arent Kosher or Jewish. My point is, you can have a system that relies on most people being honest about if they really need a certain option, without having a full verification process of their religion or medical details.
Click to expand...

In fact Muslim Halal and Jewish Kosher are pretty close in many ways so it's not just Jewish people that would ask for kosher.


----------



## cpotisch

me_little_me said:


> In fact Muslim Halal and Jewish Kosher are pretty close in many ways so it's not just Jewish people that would ask for kosher.


Actually, if something is certified kosher, it is 100% halal. It doesn't quite work the opposite direction (a halal meal isn't necessarily kosher), but nonetheless, a kosher meal will work for both religions. And if the meal doesn't have meat in it, it will be vegetarian, kosher, and halal. My point is, having one alternative option can suit many dietary restrictions, and if you simply ask that people only order it if they *need* that option, most people will be honest about it. You don't need to have a whole verification process.


----------



## PVD

We work with the honor system in many areas. It certainly is not up to me to pass judgement on the legitimacy of a specific person's claims, even though I believe there are people who are willing to game a system for their own advantage. Just look at what has happened with emotional support animals on airlines, service dogs in all areas, and handicapped parking. People who use provisions meant to help a different group for their own advantage drive up costs for everyone, and may end up causing a backlash that hurts the folks that actually deserve consideration. A vegan meal would satisfy vegetarian requirements, is it really practical to have more than a couple of choices in that realm, or any other for that matter ? Too many optional meals absolutely drives up average unit costs.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Im so confused by this logic. Im just picturing someone pre-ordering a Kosher meal, hanging up the phone and then doing an evil-Villian laugh going "ha! No vegan wrap for me! I tricked them into giving me a better meal!"

I don't think I've seen anyone suggest there should be a vegetarian AND a vegan choice (the current vegan wrap covers both). I suggested there should be a gluten free side and dessert choice for all the meals, since both salads are gluten free. Since I haven't got a doctors note I suppose im not allowed to order it though.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Im so confused by this logic. Im just picturing someone pre-ordering a Kosher meal, hanging up the phone and then doing an evil-Villian laugh going "ha! No vegan wrap for me! I tricked them into giving me a better meal!"


How do you know that it would be a better meal? _Kosher_ does not necessarily mean _better_.


----------



## TiBike

You have to know these things when you're an Evil Villain you know (with apologies to Monty Python).


----------



## tommylicious

So I just perused the cafe car menu changes, and I think they're terrific improvements to that erstwhile wasteland. (See, I can compliment too!) Amtrak have to similarly upgrade the dining car menu as they did the cafe car. The dining car changes, in present form, are net downgrades for sleeper pax.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Actually this is more to give freedom to Amtrak management to do the right thing to maximize use and revenue overall and reduce the need for overall subsidy rather than focusing on reducing F&B losses. If you think that is wrong then I disagree. Congress should not be micromanaging these sorts of things.


I agree. Sure, F&B yields negative revenue, but so dies the Amtrak Police department. At least the dining cars recover some of their costs back. Should be shut down APD if it doesn't start showing a profit?


----------



## MikefromCrete

MARC Rider said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually this is more to give freedom to Amtrak management to do the right thing to maximize use and revenue overall and reduce the need for overall subsidy rather than focusing on reducing F&B losses. If you think that is wrong then I disagree. Congress should not be micromanaging these sorts of things.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Sure, F&B yields negative revenue, but so dies the Amtrak Police department. At least the dining cars recover some of their costs back. Should be shut down APD if it doesn't start showing a profit?
Click to expand...

Since Congressman Mica is no longer in office, I don't think that will be necessary.


----------



## jis

Congressman Mica may not be there, but what he decreed is currently the law of the land. Getting rid of that law is what is necessary.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MikefromCrete said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually this is more to give freedom to Amtrak management to do the right thing to maximize use and revenue overall and reduce the need for overall subsidy rather than focusing on reducing F&B losses. If you think that is wrong then I disagree. Congress should not be micromanaging these sorts of things.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Sure, F&B yields negative revenue, but so dies the Amtrak Police department. At least the dining cars recover some of their costs back. Should be shut down APD if it doesn't start showing a profit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since Congressman Mica is no longer in office, I don't think that will be necessary.
Click to expand...

So long as Bill Shuster R-Pa. remains as Chair of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee I would expect an uphill battle on reversing the law that requires Amtrak F&B to break even.


----------



## jis

Yeah, it may not come out of the Committee, but a floor amendment is a different matter. Admittedly it is a long shot, but it is worth a try, and might just work if worded carefully.


----------



## bretton88

I will say this, a lot of the LSL postings I've seen on Facebook have been largely positive on the dining changes, so this might not even be a problem. Time will tell how it all works out.


----------



## PVD

I had breakfast on the LSL, and a dinner and breakfast on the CL. What was offered was generally decent , but despite my concerns about implementation, I can't disagree with the notion that a pre ordering system for those ticketed far enough in advance, a few more options or combinations, and some way to include coach passengers would make it much better. A hot option, or a voucher system for the café menu perhaps?


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> or a voucher system for the café menu perhaps?


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im so confused by this logic. Im just picturing someone pre-ordering a Kosher meal, hanging up the phone and then doing an evil-Villian laugh going "ha! No vegan wrap for me! I tricked them into giving me a better meal!"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that it would be a better meal? _Kosher_ does not necessarily mean _better_.
Click to expand...

Many eons ago after the Tri-Motor was no longer used and jet airliners probably existed),there were numerous commentators with the usual "100 best suggestions for flying" who would suggest ordering a kosher meal on an airline because the quality was better. This was, of course before browsers were invented.


----------



## PVD

You are correct, I remember it to.


----------



## Manny T

I ordered a kosher meal once. Everything was soft and bland. I said to myself, this reminds me of something. Wait, wait, don't tell me -- a hospital meal! Then it dawned on me, of course, same meals go to hospitals and senior homes for patients who order them there.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Manny T said:


> I ordered a kosher meal once. Everything was soft and bland. I said to myself, this reminds me of something. Wait, wait, don't tell me -- a hospital meal! Then it dawned on me, of course, same meals go to hospitals and senior homes for patients who order them there.


That has been my experience as well. On US airlines the special meals often resemble a subset of hospital codes that taste the same or worse than the standard airline meal. In other cases they're little more than a random assortment of sides that may or may not match the letter or spirit of what you actually ordered. That being said, there are some carriers that provide useful options such as FPML (Fruit Platter) that are easy to understand and which work out well as practical alternatives to the high salt/fat options.


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im so confused by this logic. Im just picturing someone pre-ordering a Kosher meal, hanging up the phone and then doing an evil-Villian laugh going "ha! No vegan wrap for me! I tricked them into giving me a better meal!"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that it would be a better meal? _Kosher_ does not necessarily mean _better_.
Click to expand...

This used to be a good travel hack in the 90s because coach meals where absolutely terrible. So ordering a special meal meant there was a decent chance you'd get a higher quality meal with better ingredients (or at least something with fruit). However airlines in the last several years have really made an effort to upgrade their food quality so now that special meal is no longer any better (and might be worse) than the standard meal offerings.


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## Devil's Advocate

bretton88 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im so confused by this logic. Im just picturing someone pre-ordering a Kosher meal, hanging up the phone and then doing an evil-Villian laugh going "ha! No vegan wrap for me! I tricked them into giving me a better meal!"
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that it would be a better meal? _Kosher_ does not necessarily mean _better_.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This used to be a good travel hack in the 90s because coach meals where absolutely terrible. So ordering a special meal meant there was a decent chance you'd get a higher quality meal with better ingredients (or at least something with fruit). However airlines in the last several years have really made an effort to upgrade their food quality so now that special meal is no longer any better (and might be worse) than the standard meal offerings.
Click to expand...

Airline coach meal quality can vary a lot in my experience, not just among different airlines but also different airports, and they're not all getting better.

I've been happy with coach meals on EVA, Singapore, and Thai but I've found Japan Airlines, All Nippon, and Korean Air coach meals to be rather bad and take a look at this "breakfast" on United Airlines from a couple years ago...

/monthly_04_2015/post-3930-0-62242400-1430416469.jpg

Even if you're flying the best airline in the world the food will probably leave a lot to be desired if you're departing a culinary wasteland like Moscow or Manila.


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## frequentflyer

https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/06/17/amtrak-is-modernizing-its-cafe-menu/#1efdfafc79c1

and

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/06/15/amtrak-introduces-new-food-and-beverage-menu/704269002/


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## KmH

For perspective, if not yet read, I highly recommend the book Formerly Known As Food


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## PRR 60

Given changes coming in July, this topic has been closed and discussion can be continued in the new topic:

July Changes to Lake Shore and Capitol Limited Dining


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