# Self-defense (on train)?



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

Hi All! I'm getting ready to take my first long-distance trip NYC-Cheyenne, WY (woohoo!). Then I'm flying to Phoenix. And after that, if I still feel like it and the hurricanes have passed through - taking a Phoenix - New Orleans train - and then back to NY. With everything going on, I feel I need to undertake this journey. For something. I don't quite know for what. Some new insights, some clarity. To activate courage within. To face something. To see the real America before it's too late... I'm even staying in Airbnbs even though I'm introverted and need my personal space. I want to talk to people. Anyway... My question: What do you all use for self-defense (not to use aboard the train but to have at the station/while walking in the city)? Would I be able to bring a pepper spray or a knife on the train? I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me? Anything else you can think of for protection? I'm a 5-foot-tall 110lbs female. I gotta have something.


----------



## Sidney (Aug 26, 2020)

You really have nothing to worry about. I have taken many Amtrak trips and have never seen violence of any kind. Amtrak is about the safest form of public transportation.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 26, 2020)

Weapons including knifes are not allowed on Amtrak, as you mention. While the odds of anyone knowing you have it are minimal if it's in a sealed bag, in the event a random search was conducted you could be removed from the train. While unlikely, that is far more likely than any situation where a weapon would be useful for self-defense. In fact, I don't recall hearing of any instance where a knife would be useful on Amtrak for such purposes.

Also, if you don't already know this, Amtrak does not have trains to either Cheyenne or Phoenix. For Cheyenne, you could take Amtrak to Denver and a bus from there. The closest stop to Phoenix is Maricopa, which typically has connecting shuttle service to Phoenix but I don't know if that has been impacted by the pandemic. Also worth noting is the overnight connection at New Orleans will now require at least two nights once the schedules are reduced to tri-weekly in October. You can still make a same-day connection to NYC in Chicago via the Texas Eagle (from Maricopa) or Southwest Chief (from Flagstaff) however.


----------



## PVD (Aug 26, 2020)

You are likely to be safer on the train than many parts of Phoenix. There is no Phoenix train, you can get to Maricopa or Tucson on the SL or Flagstaff on the SWC. When I visit my sister, I go through Flag, it is an easier connection back to NYC, and there is interesting stuff up that way.


----------



## Asher (Aug 26, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> Hi All! I'm getting ready to take my first long-distance trip NYC-Cheyenne, WY (woohoo!). Then I'm flying to Phoenix. And after that, if I still feel like it and the hurricanes have passed through - taking a Phoenix - New Orleans train - and then back to NY. With everything going on, I feel I need to undertake this journey. For something. I don't quite know for what. Some new insights, some clarity. To activate courage within. To face something. To see the real America before it's too late... I'm even staying in Airbnbs even though I'm introverted and need my personal space. I want to talk to people. Anyway... My question: What do you all use for self-defense? Would I be able to bring a pepper spray or a knife on the train? I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me? Anything else you can think of for protection? I'm a 5-foot-tall 110lbs female. I gotta have something.


Common sense, will usually get you by just fine A weapon may cause far more trouble than the issue at hand.
That's my thinking, I've never considered taking a weapon on a train, others may disagree. Maybe pepper spray would make you feel comfortable.


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Weapons including knifes are not allowed on Amtrak, as you mention. While the odds of anyone knowing you have it are minimal if it's in a sealed bag, in the event a random search was conducted you could be removed from the train. While unlikely, that is far more likely than any situation where a weapon would be useful for self-defense. In fact, I don't recall hearing of any instance where a knife would be useful on Amtrak for such purposes.
> 
> Also, if you don't already know this, Amtrak does not have trains to either Cheyenne or Phoenix. For Cheyenne, you could take Amtrak to Denver and a bus from there. The closest stop to Phoenix is Maricopa, which typically has connecting shuttle service to Phoenix but I don't know if that has been impacted by the pandemic. Also worth noting is the overnight connection at New Orleans will now require at least two nights once the schedules are reduced to tri-weekly in October. You can still make a same-day connection to NYC in Chicago via the Texas Eagle (from Maricopa) or Southwest Chief (from Flagstaff) however.



Thank you for those pointers. Yes, there's a bus from Denver to Cheyenne. And I'm learning that the trains don't run daily so a lot of planning is involved indeed.
I thought the "Denny's restaurant" stop was the closest to Phoenix. I looked up the address, it's in the northern part of the city. Maybe I need to look at the map again.
I wanted to take the New Orleans train specifically for the route. I like the route. And the NO-NYC looks great, too.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 26, 2020)

W T F???????

You are riding an Amtrak train. Not being sucked into a Mad Max alternate universe.

If you have an issue with another passenger discuss it with the conductor. Let them deal with it, it is part of their job. 

Your worst problem is likely to be the HVAC being too warm or too cold for your taste. Or the cafe car attendant being surly or MIA entirely.

What the heck do you think Amtrak trains are like?


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

I was thinking more about the safety on all those stations, waiting for connecting trains and buses (the bus from Phoenix to the train is at 1AM by a fast food restraurant), and walking around the city once I'm off the train. I'm not worried about safety aboard. So you can calm down, Zephyr.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 26, 2020)

The odds of someone learning you have a knife (or a thermonuclear warhead), goes up when you take it out to brandish. Even if you feel you there is a justified threat against you.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL (Aug 26, 2020)

Now, if you were to take _Greyhound..._

You might need _ALL _of those things I mentioned.

*shudders*


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Now, if you were to take _Greyhound..._
> 
> You might need _ALL _of those things I mentioned.
> 
> _*shudders*_



I avoid that thing like the plague. I hope those Thruway buses Amrtak uses aren't Greyhound? I've taken one from WI to CO years back. Don't know how I made it in one piece. They did lose my bag and the driver shouted at us regularly. I also hear they have no problem not picking up passengers at the stop, just breezing through while you stand there after waiting for hours. They are a total awful mess.


----------



## ehbowen (Aug 26, 2020)

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Now, if you were to take _Greyhound..._
> 
> You might need _ALL _of those things I mentioned.
> 
> *shudders*


But your fellow [Greyhound] passengers would probably be much more experienced at using them than you are....


----------



## Big Iron (Aug 26, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> Hi All! I'm getting ready to take my first long-distance trip NYC-Cheyenne, WY (woohoo!). Then I'm flying to Phoenix. And after that, if I still feel like it and the hurricanes have passed through - taking a Phoenix - New Orleans train - and then back to NY. With everything going on, I feel I need to undertake this journey. For something. I don't quite know for what. Some new insights, some clarity. To activate courage within. To face something. To see the real America before it's too late... I'm even staying in Airbnbs even though I'm introverted and need my personal space. I want to talk to people. Anyway... My question: What do you all use for self-defense (not to use aboard the train but to have at the station/while walking in the city)? Would I be able to bring a pepper spray or a knife on the train? I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me? Anything else you can think of for protection? I'm a 5-foot-tall 110lbs female. I gotta have something.



Search "Self Defense Key Chains", this might do it for you. My daughter has one. I also noticed a svelte 5" Amtrak SCA had one on her set of keys. Practice throat punches, would make anyone think twice.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 26, 2020)

Some Amtrak Thruway services are Greyhound codeshares. Some are codeshares with other bus lines. Some are contracted as exclusive Amtrak operations.

It is possible that the codeshare status is reflected in the numbering system, if so, I don't have the magic decoder ring.

Most Thruway services in California are Amtrak only. Thruway services in conjunction with the Amtrak Cascades services are Amtrak only.


----------



## tgstubbs1 (Aug 26, 2020)

I don't know about pepper spray. They might frown on any kind of hazardous liquids or sprays. Possibly something to do with DOT or FRA regulations, for example. I know there are varying strengths of pepper sprays but I don't know if they would approve any of them.

There are electronic panic siren type devices you can carry and it you pull the pin or press a button it will wail. That type of thing is probably ok. And of course keeping your smart phone handy should be a good idea, although you might not have cell service on parts of long distance routes. 

Some might say one of the most important things about self defense is what they call 'situational awareness'. Paying attention when you are in certain areas, times of day, etc. The train should be pretty safe. It might have to do with it being such a closed environment. When you get off the train safety around the area of the train station can vary. Some of the stations are in older parts of town, sometimes a bit desolate at night but probably reasonably safe during the day. You could do some research ahead of time and investigate areas you plan to visit,


----------



## Seaboard92 (Aug 26, 2020)

I've never had an issue on board the train or at a station that required a weapon and I've been in some pretty sketchy locales in my life. Generally if you mind your business, act like you know what your doing people will leave you alone. Basically be uninteresting and people won't take a second glance at you.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Aug 26, 2020)

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Now, if you were to take _Greyhound..._
> 
> You might need _ALL _of those things I mentioned.
> 
> *shudders*



I’ve never been seated with a group of men who had literally just been let out of prison when riding greyhound. I have on Amtrak. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 26, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> What do you all use for self-defense?


Growing up in a public school?



Hero's journey said:


> Would I be able to bring a pepper spray or a knife on the train? I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me? Anything else you can think of for protection?


How often do you find yourself in a situation where stabbing someone is required?


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Aug 26, 2020)

My weapon of choice is my evil eye.  I'm a older woman who has never felt the need to carry a weapon. If I'm traveling to places I'm unfamiliar with, I research the areas I plan to be in. If I decide it's not a safe place to walk I'll look for public transportation, taxis, uber/lyft to get to my destination.

You can learn self-defense that uses your body or common things you would carry with you anyway.








Don't Put Your Keys Between Your Fingers for Self Defense


Even if they haven’t gone so far as to get formal self-defense training, many people (particularly women) have considered what strategies they’d deploy if they were attacked by a stranger. A popular thought is that one would use an object on your person as a weapon of defense—like keys, for...




lifehacker.com


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I don't know about pepper spray. They might frown on any kind of hazardous liquids or sprays. Possibly something to do with DOT or FRA regulations, for example. I know there are varying strengths of pepper sprays but I don't know if they would approve any of them.
> 
> There are electronic panic siren type devices you can carry and it you pull the pin or press a button it will wail. That type of thing is probably ok. And of course keeping your smart phone handy should be a good idea, although you might not have cell service on parts of long distance routes.
> 
> Some might say one of the most important things about self defense is what they call 'situational awareness'. Paying attention when you are in certain areas, times of day, etc. The train should be pretty safe. It might have to do with it being such a closed environment. When you get off the train safety around the area of the train station can vary. Some of the stations are in older parts of town, sometimes a bit desolate at night but probably reasonably safe during the day. You could do some research ahead of time and investigate areas you plan to visit,



Thank you, I will definitely look into a panic siren thing. 
One thing I do have is very good situational awareness. I'm hardly a naive little thing that just wants to be nice and looks for the best in everybody  It's long overdue that I get some self-defense tools not only for travel.


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

Big Iron said:


> Search "Self Defense Key Chains", this might do it for you. My daughter has one. I also noticed a svelte 5" Amtrak SCA had one on her set of keys. Practice throat punches, would make anyone think twice.



Definitely will. Thanks!


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> My weapon of choice is my evil eye.  I'm a older woman who has never felt the need to carry a weapon. If I'm traveling to places I'm unfamiliar with, I research the areas I plan to be in. If I decide it's not a safe place to walk I'll look for public transportation, taxis, uber/lyft to get to my destination.
> 
> You can learn self-defense that uses your body or common things you would carry with you anyway.
> 
> ...



Yes, I'm waiting to see how I feel in Phoenix. Will definitely rely on Uber/Light rail if walking feels unsafe.


----------



## tgstubbs1 (Aug 26, 2020)

I've been to Cheyenne a few times. When I was in college my girlfriend went to school there. It's pretty low key but I guess a person looking for trouble might be able to find it.

Phoenix and New Orleans are way different but it all depends on your itinerary I'm sure. I would rather go to Flagstaff than Phoenix. Tucson is pretty interesting, too. Phoenix is so big you are probably going to spend your time in a suburb, like Mesa or Scottsdale. The train goes to Maricopa which is mostly one big housing development, as far as I could tell.


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I've been to Cheyenne a few times. When I was in college my girlfriend went to school there. It's pretty low key but I guess a person looking for trouble might be able to find it.
> 
> Phoenix and New Orleans are way different but it all depends on your itinerary I'm sure. I would rather go to Flagstaff than Phoenix. Tucson is pretty interesting, too. Phoenix is so big you are probably going to spend your time in a suburb, like Mesa or Scottsdale. The train goes to Maricopa which is mostly one big housing development, as far as I could tell.



Cheyenne seems pretty anodyne. 
Phoenix doesn't! I'm staying in Scottsdale though. I know their Light rail goes to Mesa and, I think, Tempe. Probably will spend most of the time there, and will go to Phoenix once just to check it out. I won't be driving so Tuscon isn't on the map but I hear good things about it, and it's less expensive. Greyhound goes there. Next time, perhaps.


----------



## Willbridge (Aug 26, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve never been seated with a group of men who had literally just been let out of prison when riding greyhound. I have on Amtrak. Your mileage may vary.


I've had the opposite, riding the Denver<>Omaha daylight bus. At Sterling, Colorado the quietest, most well-behaved group of guys board and mind their own business, just released from the state prison there.


----------



## PVD (Aug 26, 2020)

My sister and brother in law live in Chandler which is on the right side of the area to make Maricopa useful, but I still like to go into Flagstaff, it is a beautiful area with things to do, and see even on the drive down (shuttle is available also) The Biosphere is out towards Tucson, that's pretty interesting, not sure if it is open.


----------



## Willbridge (Aug 26, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> Some Amtrak Thruway services are Greyhound codeshares. Some are codeshares with other bus lines. Some are contracted as exclusive Amtrak operations.
> 
> It is possible that the codeshare status is reflected in the numbering system, if so, I don't have the magic decoder ring.
> 
> Most Thruway services in California are Amtrak only. Thruway services in conjunction with the Amtrak Cascades services are Amtrak only.


The Cascades buses do not require Amtrak travel, but the tickets are sold through Amtrak. California has always had some routes that did not require train travel.

Selling reservations has a considerable dampening effect on the problem bus riders. When we were young and married, my wife always preferred Continental Trailways Golden Eagle service and the slight extra fare and the reservations that made a huge difference.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Aug 26, 2020)

Since you said you plan to fly during your trip, you will want to leave the weapons at home!( even the Pepper Spray).

TSA is pretty strict with people that take weapons thru Security, so take the Train, be sure and talk with your car attendants and Conductors as was said, and enjoy the journey.

You didn't say if you were riding in a Sleeper or Coach, but theres always people around.

When its night when you're in the Cities, use Taxis,Uber or Lyft. Public Transportstion is fine in the daytime in all Cities that have it!


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

What do y'all think about doing NYC-WY in coach? It's 48 hours. With "social distancing", trains are running half-empty. I figured, given my small size, I can lay across the two seats or use a good neck support device and sleep ok since it won't be crowded?


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 26, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Since you said you plan to fly during your trip, you will want to leave the weapons at home!( even the Pepper Spray).
> 
> TSA is pretty strict with people that take weapons thru Security, so take the Train, be sure and talk with your car attendants and Conductors as was said, and enjoy the journey.
> 
> ...



I would throw everything out before going to the airport. Which kind of defeats the purpose since I would probably need that stuff more on the second part of the trip in Phoenix... Thank you for your tips!


----------



## me_little_me (Aug 26, 2020)

Big Iron said:


> Search "Self Defense Key Chains", this might do it for you. My daughter has one. I also noticed a svelte 5" Amtrak SCA had one on her set of keys. Practice throat punches, would make anyone think twice.


That SCA's biggest problem is being stepped on! At 5 inches in height, she might even have problems reaching the bottom bunk, too.

Does she practice toe punches?


----------



## Willbridge (Aug 26, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> What do y'all think about doing NYC-WY in coach? It's 48 hours. With "social distancing", trains are running half-empty. I figured, given my small size, I can lay across the two seats or use a good neck support device and sleep ok since it won't be crowded?


Some of us, me included, have done things like that. Some other people cringe when they think about it. A lot depends on how easily you fall asleep. Luckily I had valuable U.S. Army training at falling asleep!


----------



## jloewen (Aug 27, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Some of us, me included, have done things like that. Some other people cringe when they think about it. A lot depends on how easily you fall asleep. Luckily I had valuable U.S. Army training at falling asleep!


Buy bear spray in WY. Works on people too. Check a bag on the flight and pu the bear spray therein.


----------



## WWW (Aug 27, 2020)

Forget the pepper spray - if you don't know how to use it effectively - AND - worse yet if used against you.
That panic alarm (SOUNDS) great should get the attention of one of the train crew !
Situation awareness - get to know the layout on the train - a path to escape - express your fears to your Service Attendant -
Have the SA check in on you from time time perhaps you are in a Roomette or Sleeper shut and close the door !
Don't have a lot of cumbersome baggage luggage to tote hindering your movement.

Really don't read or hear much of trouble on the rails - mostly unruly airplane passengers these days.

Oh and have a grand ole trip - be prepared for things to be LATE - allow connection time between trains.
Read and participate more this Amtrak forum.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 27, 2020)

It is nice to hear that you want to break out and see your country, but so sad to read about your fears, and the need for self defence.
While anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and travel is much more problematic for a lone female, I hope you can avoid trouble without the need for violence.
If you can tailor your journey to avoid being alone on the streets in a strange city in the middle of the night, that seems like good advice for anyone, not just a female.
Travel in hope, not in fear, just be sensible with your risks!
I regularly slept across the two seats of an Amtrak train a few years ago, for two night trips, and I am an old man of 6'2", so I would imagine that you could be comfortable enough.
The trains, main stations, and even the main Greyhound bus stations that I have used on my visits to America have been fine, from the safety aspect, and all part of the exciting adventure that travel should be.

PS This you tube video gives some idea about (pre-covid) solo female travel in coach, across America:

Click for solo female's youtube video San Francisco to New York in coach

Good Luck!


----------



## HenryK (Aug 27, 2020)

If you get caught by the cops with pepper spray, tell them it's for bears. "What bears?" they will reply. "See?" you reply. "It works."


----------



## Ryan (Aug 27, 2020)

"I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me?"


----------



## Skyline (Aug 27, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I don't know about pepper spray. They might frown on any kind of hazardous liquids or sprays. Possibly something to do with DOT or FRA regulations, for example. I know there are varying strengths of pepper sprays but I don't know if they would approve any of them.
> 
> There are electronic panic siren type devices you can carry and it you pull the pin or press a button it will wail. That type of thing is probably ok. And of course keeping your smart phone handy should be a good idea, although you might not have cell service on parts of long distance routes.
> 
> Some might say one of the most important things about self defense is what they call 'situational awareness'. Paying attention when you are in certain areas, times of day, etc. The train should be pretty safe. It might have to do with it being such a closed environment. When you get off the train safety around the area of the train station can vary. Some of the stations are in older parts of town, sometimes a bit desolate at night but probably reasonably safe during the day. You could do some research ahead of time and investigate areas you plan to visit,



I carried a small cannister of bear spray, in a holster, on #8 once, because I was detraining to go hike in Glacier NP as the spray and holster are required there. I kept it stored in a locked bearproof food cannister (recommended while camping in non-designated places in GNP) while on board. I was mildly concerned about it accidentally discharging and bringing everyone in my sleeper car to tears. No problem. I suspect it would have been of little use as a self defense strategy on the train.


----------



## MARC Rider (Aug 27, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I've never had an issue on board the train or at a station that required a weapon and I've been in some pretty sketchy locales in my life. Generally if you mind your business, act like you know what your doing people will leave you alone. Basically be uninteresting and people won't take a second glance at you.


I agree with this, and this had been my experience, too. And I live in Baltimore, the alleged "murder capital of the universe," or something. 

If I actually had to go to a place where weapons were needed, I would make it my business to get formal training in self-defense from somebody who knew what they were talking about.

But weapons aren't needed on Amtrak or in its stations.


----------



## MARC Rider (Aug 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve never been seated with a group of men who had literally just been let out of prison when riding greyhound. I have on Amtrak. Your mileage may vary.


They're, of course, the safest people to ride with. After all, they certainly don't want to do anything that will send them back in!


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Aug 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I agree with this, and this had been my experience, too. And I live in Baltimore, the alleged "murder capital of the universe," or something.
> 
> If I actually had to go to a place where weapons were needed, I would make it my business to get formal training in self-defense from somebody who knew what they were talking about.
> 
> But weapons aren't needed on Amtrak or in its stations.


I’ve been visiting your fair city a lot these last 3 years, and will continue to do so. I’ve never felt threatened when there. I do stay away from the rough neighborhoods including the one I could walk through to my destination.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 27, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> NYC violent crime has quadrupled in the past couple of months, you may have heard. The country has been one giant violent clusterf*** lately. But hey, if you want to believe that you live in a safe and just world where you won't be touched because it's wrong and against the rules, be my guest.


I've personally visited New York, Phoenix, and New Orleans on my own without issue or incident despite a lack of knives or sprays. That's not to say your concerns about traveling on Amtrak are invalid but if you're convinced that travel is especially dangerous right now why rush into a trip instead of waiting for things to calm down?



caravanman said:


> This you tube video gives some idea about (pre-covid) solo female travel in coach, across America:



That video quietly demonstrates how much having two seats to yourself can improve the coach experience. It boggles my mind that Amtrak resists selling two seats to one passenger or even just installing an armrest to keep things comfortable between strangers. I don't consider Amtrak to be dangerous but I do feel there are means and methods to make travel on Amtrak safer and more enjoyable.


----------



## NapTown Jim (Aug 27, 2020)

My first Amtrak ride was on the Lake Shore Limited. I was riding coach to New York City. There was a belligerent drunk (not violent) in my car. He was drinking too much and kept demanding his wife/girlfriend give him more money so he could go get another drink. The conductor warned him to stop or else he would kick him off the train. He didn't stop.

When the train stopped at Waterloo, there were two sheriff cars there waiting for us. The conductor kicked him off the train. He told the woman she didn't have to get off and was free to continue her journey to NYC. She decided to get off the train with her man, poor woman.

The point of this story is that I feel extremely safe on Amtrak...more than any airline, because if there's trouble the police can be there at any time to remove the trouble makers.


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Aug 27, 2020)

Hero's journey said:


> Hi All! I'm getting ready to take my first long-distance trip NYC-Cheyenne, WY (woohoo!). Then I'm flying to Phoenix. And after that, if I still feel like it and the hurricanes have passed through - taking a Phoenix - New Orleans train - and then back to NY. With everything going on, I feel I need to undertake this journey. For something. I don't quite know for what. Some new insights, some clarity. To activate courage within. To face something. To see the real America before it's too late... I'm even staying in Airbnbs even though I'm introverted and need my personal space. I want to talk to people. Anyway... My question: What do you all use for self-defense (not to use aboard the train but to have at the station/while walking in the city)? Would I be able to bring a pepper spray or a knife on the train? I know knifes aren't allowed but what are the chances of anyone finding one on me? Anything else you can think of for protection? I'm a 5-foot-tall 110lbs female. I gotta have something.


Amtrak stations are safe and well patrolled! Amtrak trains are safe! There is an attendant in every car... and they have an ongoing promo... 'If you see something, say something!' With all the priorities being so geared on safety, you will be safe on Amtrak... Bolstered by random security checks of carry on bags, police walk throughs at stations... sometimes with dogs... all in the interest of safety. Illegal substances are probably the biggest concern... especially near international boarders. LD trains are safe!

Walking around large cities like Phoenix is a completely different issue. Use common sense. Do bring a whistle and mace; check with hotel concierge re ok places to be strolling.


----------



## tgstubbs1 (Aug 27, 2020)

I have read that many people find the process of planning a trip almost as enjoyable as the trip itself. I think back about my trips and I can understand the thinking. 

I have ridden coach all around the country and found it comfortable enough when there was an empty seat next to me. It is best if train schedules allow for an occasional overnight stay before continuing the next morning but that might be difficult with current Amtrak schedules. 

While I have always felt safe I have also witnessed some criminal behavior on Amtrak. Once an intoxicated man removed for tearing up the dining room. A man sexually harassing a young woman travelling alone, which resulted in the conductor threatening to remove the offender. 

People have a bit of trouble getting away with this kind of behavior as Amtrak is federal property and can call on assistance from federal agents if necessary, somewhat like air marshals on a flight, I guess. 

As far as DIY self defense, I found these items on the Amtrak website. I have no idea if or how they are enforced. 
But this is the official policy. 









Terms and Conditions | Amtrak







www.amtrak.com





----------------------------------------------------
*Corrosive or dangerous chemicals or materials*

Including, but not limited to, liquid bleach, *tear gas*, radioactive and harmful bacteriological materials.


Carry-On: Not allowed
Checked: Not allowed
*Martial-arts and self-defense items*
Including but not limited to billy clubs, nightsticks, and nunchuks.


Carry-On: Not allowed
Checked: Not allowed


----------



## me_little_me (Aug 27, 2020)

Some suggestions:

Keep Amtrak Police phone number and text number in your favorites or at top of list (by putting a number or blank at the front of name). They can get a hold of local police.

Always look around building you are in for location of fire alarm. Police may or may not respond immediately but firefighters ALWAYS come. It is easy to pull alarm and hard to call and explain your danger to police. You can always claim you smelled smoke or gas and they can't dispute that. At a hotel, teens were partying all night with lots of noise and management refused to do anything. When they set off local alarm, I called 911 and said alarm had gone off. I was asked if I smelled smoke. or saw fire. I simply stated I had 2 kids and was leaving now and wasn't waiting to look for anything. Then I hung up on them. They rolled 3 fire trucks and an ambulance and were there before we reached the office. I told the manager why we were leaving as he was trying to explain to the fire chief why he had not investigated yet whether there was a real fire. His problem, not mine. But those guys come and they ALWAYS come fast. I know. I was chief of a volunteer department and always told people - "Call first. Then look". Best to have people on the way who will come ASAP.

If people come close that you don't feel comfortable with, take out your phone, bring up phone app, put in the 911 but don't hit send. If the danger increases, all you have to do is hit send, not have to first bring up the app and then hit 911. Seconds count. If you do have to call 911 from cell, give address/location FIRST. It doesn't help to know your name or what is wrong if they don't know where you are. Even if phone is taken away from you, they can usually figure out what is needed by sounds in background. If they know where, they know where to send someone even not knowing what the problem is.

Remember, in some areas if you yell POLICE, people run and hide but if you yell FIRE, people come and want to see.


----------



## Rasputin (Aug 27, 2020)

Skyline said:


> I carried a small cannister of bear spray, in a holster, on #8 once, because I was detraining to go hike in Glacier NP as the spray and holster are required there. I kept it stored in a locked bearproof food cannister (recommended while camping in non-designated places in GNP) while on board. I was mildly concerned about it accidentally discharging and bringing everyone in my sleeper car to tears. No problem. I suspect it would have been of little use as a self defense strategy on the train.


I understand that some people have been subject to a significant amount of unpleasantness when their bear spray accidently discharged in their pocket. I believe discharging it on Amtrak would cause a rapid evacuation of the car.

I believe it is against the Amtrak and airline policies to carry bear spray on Amtrak or in a commercial airliner, whether in carry-on or in checked luggage. I naively violated the policy on a plane once in 2001 (before 9/11) with no bad consequences.


----------



## pennyk (Aug 27, 2020)

I am a fairly small woman (5'2") and have been traveling on Amtrak since Amtrak became Amtrak. Although I have occasionally traveled with others, most of the time I traveled alone. When I was younger and could not afford a sleeper, I traveled in coach. If available, I now travel in a sleeper. I have never felt unsafe (in over 286,000 miles) on an Amtrak train. I have seen numerous passengers (usually men) removed from trains for various reasons (usually alcohol related) and always appreciated the fact that the crew was looking out for the safety and welfare of the passengers. I do not recall not feeling safe in an Amtrak station. 

Some neighborhoods around stations are not the greatest and I may have been a bit reluctant to walk from the station to my destination. However, most of the time, if my destination is within a couple of miles, I walk from the station to my destination. I carry no weapons, no sprays, no alarms. I am aware of my surroundings and try to walk during the day light hours, if possible. However, I am comfortable on the streets of Chicago and midtown Manhattan (near Penn Station) after dark.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Aug 27, 2020)

This is Penny and I


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Aug 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> They're, of course, the safest people to ride with. After all, they certainly don't want to do anything that will send them back in!



Definitely not the vibe they were sending out on the way to Chicago but as always your mileage may vary  

That trip is what made me always buy business class when available .


----------



## Rasputin (Aug 27, 2020)

An item from the Flathead Beacon from 2019 to follow up on my recent post:









Montana Home Evacuated After Bear Spray Explodes in Oven - Flathead Beacon


BOZEMAN — Authorities say a home in southern Montana was evacuated after a can of bear spray exploded in a warming oven. Graver Johnson, battalion chief with the Bozeman Fire Department, says three fire engines were sent to the home Tuesday because it was initially thought that the structure was...



flatheadbeacon.com


----------



## mitako (Aug 27, 2020)

I understand the OPs concern, which is about neighborhood, not about safety on the train. Some Amtrak stations are not located in the greatest neighborhoods, sometimes arrival/departure times are in the middle of the night, and if OP is like me, she intends to walk from station to hotel and vice versa. I've actually considered carrying a very small pepper spray in my purse, but I see that's against Amtrak rules. So next best is an alarm keychain or super loud whistle. Also, of course, one should always be observant and keep belongings close at hand when walking through any strange city, especially if female and alone.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 27, 2020)

mitako said:


> I understand the OPs concern, which is about neighborhood, not about safety on the train. Some Amtrak stations are not located in the greatest neighborhoods, sometimes arrival/departure times are in the middle of the night, and if OP is like me, she intends to walk from station to hotel and vice versa. I've actually considered carrying a very small pepper spray in my purse, but I see that's against Amtrak rules. So next best is an alarm keychain or super loud whistle. Also, of course, one should always be observant and keep belongings close at hand when walking through any strange city, especially if female and alone.


There is the adventure of travelling, and then there is doing things that are simply asking for trouble... I fully accept that we should all be treated equally, male and female, but anyone alone in a bad area after dark does not fall into my "adventure" category. Why not grab a taxi to get to or from that station in a dodgy area?


----------



## John Santos (Aug 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I agree with this, and this had been my experience, too. And I live in Baltimore, the alleged "murder capital of the universe," or something.
> 
> If I actually had to go to a place where weapons were needed, I would make it my business to get formal training in self-defense from somebody who knew what they were talking about.
> 
> But weapons aren't needed on Amtrak or in its stations.


Are you claiming the Hole in the Wall Gang and the James Brothers are in retirement and no longer robbing the western trains at every opportunity? That the passengers won't be called upon to defend themselves with six-shooters and Winchesters at a moment's notice? Maybe I've been watching too many John Wayne movies?

Seriously, trains are very safe places. For one thing, there is no where for a malefactor to escape to, and there are lots of on-board crew and other passengers to see anyone who tries anything. (BTW, a train with a contingent of released prisoners is probably even safer because very few of them would want to go back when they had just been released and especially not because one of the other former prisoners lost it.)


----------



## bms (Aug 27, 2020)

I definitely wouldn't recommend taking any weapons on the train. I recently had my bag searched in May when I boarded #5 in Chicago. Not only could they put you off the train and file charges, they also might ban you from future travel.

I believe the Thruway bus from Denver to Cheyenne is codeshared with Greyhound. I took it two summers ago, there were fewer than ten people on it each way and nobody said a word. It was a short ride but the stop in Cheyenne was not walkable from the downtown area.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 27, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> An item from the Flathead Beacon from 2019 to follow up on my recent post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bear spray in a warming oven?????

No sir, nothing can possibly go wrong with that. .

On a serious side, Per the TSA, bear spray is entirely forbidden on flights, both checked and carry on. One 4 oz container of personal defense spray is allowed in checked bags only by TSA, but TSA also warns that individual airlines may prohibit it.

In any case, TSA's stance on air travel permission is probably immaterial, as Amtrak appears to prohibit personal defense sprays entirely. Although not specifically called out as such, they logically fall under the both the categories of "Martial Arts and Self Defense Items" and "Corrosive or dangerous chemicals or materials". Both categories are forbidden in both carry on AND checked baggage.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 27, 2020)

Does anyone know why Amtrak banned pepper spray? I can see why knives are banned (but not guns because 'murica) and I can understand why bear spray is not allowed, but why would a small pepper spray device be a problem? Seems like some people would feel better to have it and the threat of offensive misuse seems relatively minor. Am I missing something or forgetting a prior event that would help explain this?


----------



## MARC Rider (Aug 27, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> I understand that some people have been subject to a significant amount of unpleasantness when their bear spray accidently discharged in their pocket. I believe discharging it on Amtrak would cause a rapid evacuation of the car.
> 
> I believe it is against the Amtrak and airline policies to carry bear spray on Amtrak or in a commercial airliner, whether in carry-on or in checked luggage. I naively violated the policy on a plane once in 2001 (before 9/11) with no bad consequences.


So if you're planning to travel by train or plane to a wilderness trip, you should buy your bear spray after you get off the train and, when the trip is over, discard whatever's left before you board for the trip home.

I've taken a couple of wilderness trips into the Sierra Nevada, which is infested with black bears, and I was never advised by the trip leaders to bring bear spray. We dealt with the bears by sleeping well away from the cooking area and hanging our food and other odoriferous stuff (like toothpaste) that attracts bears. Then there was a family car camping trip at Blackwater Falls State Park in West Virginia in the days before they installed bearproof trashcans where we spent the night cowering in our tent while a bear ransacked the trash can at our site. Fortunately our food was locked up in the car, and West Virginia bears (unlike California bears) can't seem to figure out how to take apart car doors.


----------



## MARC Rider (Aug 27, 2020)

Question about knife policy. I always carry a Swiss Army knife with me when I travel. When I fly, I make sure it's in my checked luggage, but I carry it on the train, because it's very useful for slicing cheese and fancy salami to go with the happy hour wine or whisky in my room. I wouldn't consider it much of a weapon, one, the bade is nothing to speak of, and two, it would take me so long to fish it out of my pack and open the blade, that if I needed it as a weapon, I'd be dead first. I hope I'm not in violation of some kind of Amtrak policy. If I am, I guess I'll have to bring a cheese plane and forget about the salami on my next trip.

Also, if your taking the train to go on, say, a hunting trip, by policy, you can pack your rifle and send it through as checked baggage, but does this mean that the big K-Bar hunting knife that you use to dress the animals you bag is forbidden, even in checked baggage? I guess that's no crazier than the fact that Bowie knives, made famous by the Texan Jim Bowie of the Alamo, are banned in Texas. (But of course, it perfectly legal to run around Texas will all kinds of guns on your person.)


----------



## Manny T (Aug 27, 2020)

When off the train, I recommend a cellphone and 911 for defense, self and otherwise.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 27, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Does anyone know why Amtrak banned pepper spray? I can see why knives are banned completely (but not guns because 'murica) and I can understand why bear spray is not allowed, but why would a small pepper spray device be a problem? Seems like some people would feel better to have it and the threat of offensive misuse seems relatively minor. Am I missing something or forgetting a prior event that would help explain this?


My own personal opinion is it basically an oversight, consistent with the general competency level of Amtrak management. The fact that personal defense spray is, by omission, lumped in with nunchucks under one category, or chlorine in the other, speaks to that.

It would have taken very little effort to look up and copy TSA's rational (in this case) personal defense spray specific policy. They didn't bother.

Bottom line, I don't think there isn't a rationally thought out policy. There is a default state that fell out because it was not considered on its own.


----------



## Big Iron (Aug 27, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Growing up in a public school?
> 
> 
> How often do you find yourself in a situation where stabbing someone is required?


How many times does it take to find out?


----------



## Sauve850 (Aug 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Amtrak stations are safe and well patrolled! Amtrak trains are safe! There is an attendant in every car... and they have an ongoing promo... 'If you see something, say something!' With all the priorities being so geared on safety, you will be safe on Amtrak... Bolstered by random security checks of carry on bags, police walk throughs at stations... sometimes with dogs... all in the interest of safety. Illegal substances are probably the biggest concern... especially near international boarders. LD trains are safe!
> 
> Walking around large cities like Phoenix is a completely different issue. Use common sense. Do bring a whistle and mace; check with hotel concierge re ok places to be strolling.


Correct. Especially walking around big cities. However, Ive been to the new Seattle station a couple of times with some shady looking homeless folks and not a sign of security anywhere. And the incident outside the EMY station a few years ago also comes to mind. All in all I think the stations are pretty safe and incidents are rare. As others state common sense is your best defense.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 27, 2020)

Sauve850 said:


> Correct. Especially walking around big cities. However, Ive been to the new Seattle station a couple of times with some shady looking homeless folks and not a sign of security anywhere. And the incident outside the EMY station a few years ago also comes to mind. All in all I think the stations are pretty safe and incidents are rare. As others state common sense is your best defense.


Um, "new Seattle station"? You mean the one that opened in 1906, King Street Station? The only Seattle Amtrak station?

That part of town has had a homeless issue for decades. They are pretty much harmless. But I would not wander aimlessly after dark in the immediate area.


----------



## Hero's journey (Aug 27, 2020)

bms said:


> I definitely wouldn't recommend taking any weapons on the train. I recently had my bag searched in May when I boarded #5 in Chicago. Not only could they put you off the train and file charges, they also might ban you from future travel.
> 
> I believe the Thruway bus from Denver to Cheyenne is codeshared with Greyhound. I took it two summers ago, there were fewer than ten people on it each way and nobody said a word. It was a short ride but the stop in Cheyenne was not walkable from the downtown area.



That's good to know, thanks. From Google images the station seems to be near a truck stop, very industrial area. Uber from there to my Airbnbn is about only about $15 for a short drive, and most likely they're used to going there to pick up passengers.


----------



## Barb Stout (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm shorter and just a bit stouter than you are and probably older and very physically weak and have traveled alone on Amtrak. The 2 stations that I got off on or arrived at night are Oakland, CA and Cincinnati OH. I took a Lyft at Oakland to my AirBnB in Berkeley and a Lyft between the Greyhound bus station and train station in Cin. There were a lot of people at the Oakland station, so one can feel safe there. When inquiring at the Cin Greyhound about the safety in walking around the area, I was told to probably stay at the station instead while waiting for the Cin train station to open (it opens at midnight), so I did. I figure there is very little hope of me ever being able to defend myself as I'm also somewhat clumsy and have very poor vision, so I pretty much rely on friendliness and a gentle demeanor. So far I have been lucky. 

I live in Albuquerque and though you are not coming here, the Amtrak station is in the downtown area along with some homeless people who may very well ask you for money. And there are the occasional riots downtown, but those are pretty easy to avoid. They only happen at night and Amtrak's regular stops in ABQ are during the day.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 28, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Question about knife policy. I always carry a Swiss Army knife with me when I travel.


I _used _to carry my swiss army knife, a present from my girlfriend, all the time. When in line to board the ferry to view the Statue of Liberty, I had to dump it in their bin. I miss it now when I need that tool to remove stones from horses hooves...  

I guess the thinking about banning pepper spray is that these items could be used against Amtrak staff just as easily as any other target?


----------



## jloewen (Aug 28, 2020)

jloewen said:


> Buy bear spray in WY. Works on people too. Check a bag on the flight and pu the bear spray therein.


How did I get to be "train attendant"?? How can I get to UN-be a train attendant? I looked and looked and could not reach a profile page or anything like it, except to change my photo. My photo is fine. If managers of this site can change "train attendant" to "sociologist" I'd be grateful. If not, kindly tell me how I can do so! Thanks!


----------



## stx (Aug 28, 2020)

I have COPD and asthma. Please keep in mind thst if your illegal pepper spray, mace or bear spray were to unintentionally or intentionally be discharged on the train or near me in the station, I will probably die. Literally. No inhaler will be able to counteract it. Rules are there for a reason. I don’t always agree with them, but this one can save lives.


----------



## joelkfla (Aug 28, 2020)

jloewen said:


> How did I get to be "train attendant"?? How can I get to UN-be a train attendant? I looked and looked and could not reach a profile page or anything like it, except to change my photo. My photo is fine. If managers of this site can change "train attendant" to "sociologist" I'd be grateful. If not, kindly tell me how I can do so! Thanks!


 It's not your occupation, it's an honorary "badge" based on how many times you've posted. Everybody gets one.


----------



## stx (Aug 28, 2020)

While we’re on the subject of self-defense: know how to open the emertency windows on Amtrak, and know where they are in relation to your seat, on both sides of the car. If the train is stopped and you need to evacuate due to any onboard threat (which, I agree with others, is extremely unlikely), you should be able to make your way through darkness or thick smoke to the window, feel around for the latch, and open the window to escape. Bonus life points if you choose a window that’s not next to another live track.


----------



## Skyline (Aug 28, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> I understand that some people have been subject to a significant amount of unpleasantness when their bear spray accidently discharged in their pocket. I believe discharging it on Amtrak would cause a rapid evacuation of the car.
> 
> I believe it is against the Amtrak and airline policies to carry bear spray on Amtrak or in a commercial airliner, whether in carry-on or in checked luggage. I naively violated the policy on a plane once in 2001 (before 9/11) with no bad consequences.



Rightly or wrongly, I felt keeping the bear spray in the locked bear canister made accidental discharge very unlikely. These bear canisters are used to store food in the backcountry at campsites and are built to withstand violent attacks by large grizzly bears. The bear spray was wrapped with lots of bubble wrap and duct-taped in position so it would not shift during transit.


----------



## tricia (Aug 28, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Rightly or wrongly, I felt keeping the bear spray in the locked bear canister made accidental discharge very unlikely. These bear canisters are used to store food in the backcountry at campsites and are built to withstand violent attacks by large grizzly bears. The bear spray was wrapped with lots of bubble wrap and duct-taped in position so it would not shift during transit.



How sensitive are those cannisters to altitude/air pressure changes? That's the only situation I can think of when your thoughtful packaging might fail.


----------



## Skyline (Aug 28, 2020)

tricia said:


> How sensitive are those cannisters to altitude/air pressure changes? That's the only situation I can think of when your thoughtful packaging might fail.



I was on EB #8, not a plane. I haven't flown since 1976. I can't imagine the altitude changes on the EB route would have any effect like that.


----------



## Barb Stout (Aug 28, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Does anyone know why Amtrak banned pepper spray? I can see why knives are banned completely (but not guns because 'murica) and I can understand why bear spray is not allowed, but why would a small pepper spray device be a problem? Seems like some people would feel better to have it and the threat of offensive misuse seems relatively minor. Am I missing something or forgetting a prior event that would help explain this?


I would guess it's because the cans are pressurized (at least I'm assuming they're pressurized), so if there is an accident with the canister getting punctured, then that could be bad.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 28, 2020)

stx said:


> I have COPD and asthma. Please keep in mind thst if your illegal pepper spray, mace or bear spray were to unintentionally or intentionally be discharged on the train or near me in the station, I will probably die. Literally. No inhaler will be able to counteract it. Rules are there for a reason. I don’t always agree with them, but this one can save lives.


I too have asthma and restricted airways so spraying me would probably end very badly, but I'm curious what you would recommend for someone who feels the need to carry protection? I don't consider traveling on Amtrak to be dangerous but I only know how the routes and locations I've personally visited are likely to treat someone who looks and acts like I do. If someone looks, behaves, or travels differently than I do they might experience a different outcome.



Sauve850 said:


> Correct. Especially walking around big cities. However, Ive been to the new Seattle station a couple of times with some shady looking homeless folks and not a sign of security anywhere. And the incident outside the EMY station a few years ago also comes to mind. All in all I think the stations are pretty safe and incidents are rare. As others state common sense is your best defense.


An apparently well kept secret is that homeless people are much more likely to be the victims of violence rather than perpetrators. Learning how to deal with panhandling is a good skill to have but for most encounters it's as simple as looking busy or distracted while being polite but firm without escalation.


----------



## me_little_me (Aug 28, 2020)

jloewen said:


> How did I get to be "train attendant"?? How can I get to UN-be a train attendant? I looked and looked and could not reach a profile page or anything like it, except to change my photo. My photo is fine. If managers of this site can change "train attendant" to "sociologist" I'd be grateful. If not, kindly tell me how I can do so! Thanks!


Stop complaining and start cleaning the train! Where's your mask and gloves that were issued to you when you joined this forum? And stop dressing in pajamas. You're not at home now. Your train leaves in 10 minute (unless delayed by a freight).


Besides, if you look, I'm a conductor so I can throw you off the train - while it's still moving. And at my rate of posting inane comments, I'll soon be promoted to executive - not only for the number of posts but because my posts are often as useless as Amtrak executive decisions.


----------



## stx (Aug 28, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I too have asthma and restricted airways so spraying me would probably end very badly, but I'm curious what you would recommend for someone who feels the need to carry protection?



A tactical pen. Very discreet and very effective. I also carry a centerpunch in case I need to help someone escape through a window that is submerged or in case the latch is obstructed with wreckage, and centerpunches can double as weapons. That probably seems extreme, but as a retired first responder I tend to think of how I would handle a potential life-threatening situation wherever I am and to then prepare for it. Once I’ve got a plan, I don’t give it another thought and just enjoy the ride. I’m sorry you feel like more of a target and have respiratory issues, and I hope you have some great train adventures despite that!


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 28, 2020)

stx said:


> I’m sorry you feel like more of a target and have respiratory issues, and I hope you have some great train adventures despite that!


I do not personally feel like a target. In fact I consider traveling on Amtrak to be relatively safe when all factors are considered. The reason for my inquiry is that I simply wondered what you felt was a more appropriate device for someone who felt they may need to defend themselves. I'm unfamiliar with purpose built defense pens but I do travel with a conventional metal pen that is sturdy enough to puncture skin and softer organs if used as a weapon.


----------



## WWW (Aug 29, 2020)

Ah way too much of the Macgyver knife stuff - Bowie knife - Crocodile Dundee "Now that's a kenife !"
Weapons of mass destruction don't belong on airplanes in the cabin and same for Amtrak trains !

Oh OK one of the posters likes to have his Swiss orange peeler knife - that's not an issue - even car keys
could do more damage - plan on using your bare fingers on an airplane - Amtrak should not be a problem.

Bear spray does not belong anywhere there is going to be a dramatic temperature atmosphere change.
In a non pressurized cargo compartment of airplane bad news - even shaving cans have exploded - a clean
mess to clean up - but that bear spary will require an airing out big time !
Now as for trains going over the Rockies Sierras Cascades etc. not that much a problem;
but don't be that darn fool putting it into a micro-wave oven to see if it makes a more lubricant spray.
An old fashion bear alarm is a string of cans on the end of that string and tossed at the bear like lasso -
works well on the black bears not so much on grizzlys as for Brown (Kodiak) don't interrupt his salmon 
dinner - back off.


Most everyone has a cell phone these days - have Hey Google - Siri - Alexa programed to voice command
911 - no futzing with using an inferno outdated rolodex dialing implement - when the 911 service is answered
tell the folks where you are and nature of the call.

For defensive weapons - as noted a pen will work - so will car keys if angled just right threw the knuckles.
Using that sound device - yelling screaming - don't give up passively this is bloody murder - - -
And in the day and age draw some blood DNA samples if you can.

Now return with us the thrilling days of yesteryear train travel - I guess the worse that someone has to put
up with is LATE trains and impossible connections with 3 LD trains weekly on some routes and dining en-mask !


----------



## HenryK (Aug 29, 2020)

The only violence I fear on Amtrak these days is to my stomach from the prepackaged "food." I leave my bear spray at home and carry a large and heavy roll of Tums.


----------



## jloewen (Aug 29, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> It's not your occupation, it's an honorary "badge" based on how many times you've posted. Everybody gets one.


Thanks! Didn't know that. I feel better already ...


----------



## jloewen (Aug 29, 2020)

Friends-261 said:


> Ah way too much of the Macgyver knife stuff - Bowie knife - Crocodile Dundee "Now that's a kenife !"
> Weapons of mass destruction don't belong on airplanes in the cabin and same for Amtrak trains !
> 
> Oh OK one of the posters likes to have his Swiss orange peeler knife - that's not an issue - even car keys
> ...


Years ago a Native American told me how to tell a grizzly bear from a black bear. It's not easy. They are variants of the same species. The best way is through their poop. Grizzly poop smells like pepper and has little bells in it ....


----------



## basketmaker (Aug 29, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> Some Amtrak Thruway services are Greyhound codeshares. Some are codeshares with other bus lines. Some are contracted as exclusive Amtrak operations.
> 
> It is possible that the codeshare status is reflected in the numbering system, if so, I don't have the magic decoder ring.
> 
> Most Thruway services in California are Amtrak only. Thruway services in conjunction with the Amtrak Cascades services are Amtrak only.





zephyr17 said:


> Some Amtrak Thruway services are Greyhound codeshares. Some are codeshares with other bus lines. Some are contracted as exclusive Amtrak operations.
> 
> It is possible that the codeshare status is reflected in the numbering system, if so, I don't have the magic decoder ring.
> 
> Most Thruway services in California are Amtrak only. Thruway services in conjunction with the Amtrak Cascades services are Amtrak only.


At DEN bus service south to Pueblo is operated by Greyhound (regular scheduled route) and does not depart from Union Station. It's a 15 minute 7/10th mile walk (some thru homeless encampments). 

Northbound to Wyoming is operated by Express Arrow and they do depart from inside Union Station.


----------



## Ziv (Aug 29, 2020)

I went hiking in the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana a couple years ago and took along a 45 and bought pepper spray and a bell when I got there. And I got the pepper spray joke when I bought them in Augusta but I still bought both the pepper spray and the bell. (I think grizzly bear/horribilis are a type of brown bear, though.) 
Nothing like getting woken up at 3am to the sound of bears trying to figure out how to get to your food cache. It looked like it was 300 yards away when I tied the tie down rope to the base of a tree but it sounded like the bears were right outside my tent.  
Still better than the time I threw the dregs of my blueberry tea in the dirt next to my tent in Glacier Park, though...
But I don't think bear spray, the 45 or the bell would be welcome on any Amtrak trains. 


jloewen said:


> Years ago a Native American told me how to tell a grizzly bear from a black bear. It's not easy. They are variants of the same species. The best way is through their poop. Grizzly poop smells like pepper and has little bells in it ....


----------



## tricia (Aug 29, 2020)

jloewen said:


> Years ago a Native American told me how to tell a grizzly bear from a black bear. It's not easy. They are variants of the same species. The best way is through their poop. Grizzly poop smells like pepper and has little bells in it ....



Talking with a park ranger years ago, he called those bells sold to warn off bears "dinner bells." Grizzlies hear them and come closer to see what the sound's about. Better to just make noises like a human (clap, sing, talk...), to let them know you're nearby so you don't startle them.

Grizzlies and black bears are different species, BTW.


----------



## Skyline (Aug 29, 2020)

In case it wasn't obvious in my initial post re: bear spray, I only brought it on #8, securely stored in a puncture-proof bear canister, because bear spray is required while hiking/backpacking at my destination -- Glacier National Park. As I was de-training at the Izaak Walton Inn, I was not confident that I could obtain bear spray there.

I did not have bear spray on board as a weapon to use aboard #8. In fact the idea that might even be effective -- stored so securely -- is ludicrous.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 29, 2020)

I’m not sure why nobody has brought this up, but if you are riding in coach, talking to strangers, starting your trip in crowded NYP, and going through states out west where people are not social distancing or wearing masks, and possibly screaming in your face because you are wearing one, you are much, much more likely to get sick from the virus than attacked on Amtrak.

My nearest station—TRE—is, unfortunately, one of the creepiest in the network, but even there I do not feel unsafe. I go down to the platform, where the passengers are, instead of waiting in the station, where the vagrants live. And of course never go there at night. (I am a 5’1” woman and, one plus of being in my 60s is that nobody notices me!.)

To be safer from the virus, I would suggest springing for a roomette when possible, not talking to anyone except the SCA or conductor, staying 6 feet away from everyone, and not getting out for breaks when the train stops in states where people are not wearing masks or social distancing.

Also, is there any way you can leave from somewhere less crowded than NYP? Even though people in New York seem to be trying to do the right thing, it is still a crowded city and probably impossible to keep a 6-foot distance from everyone. (For example, I am planning a tentative trip from NJ to NYS in October and am going up through New England and out through Boston so I do not have to be in NYP.)


----------



## daybeers (Aug 29, 2020)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I’m not sure why nobody has brought this up, but if you are riding in coach, talking to strangers, starting your trip in crowded NYP, and going through states out west where people are not social distancing or wearing masks, and possibly screaming in your face because you are wearing one, you are much, much more likely to get sick from the virus than attacked on Amtrak.
> 
> My nearest station—TRE—is, unfortunately, one of the creepiest in the network, but even there I do not feel unsafe. I go down to the platform, where the passengers are, instead of waiting in the station, where the vagrants live. And of course never go there at night. (I am a 5’1” woman and, one plus of being in my 60s is that nobody notices me!.)
> 
> ...


I agree that you're more likely to get the virus than be physically attacked to warrant self-defense on Amtrak. I also agree Trenton is one of the creepiest in the network 

NYC has been doing quite well for a while now and everyone wears a mask. It hasn't been a hotspot for some time. The crowded argument gets thrown out the window if most are wearing masks and following other guidelines. I'm confused, you're going from New Jersey to New York State but are scared of NYC so you're willing to spend more time in an enclosed environment to go to another large city before traveling back to NYS on the LSL in another enclosed environment?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 29, 2020)

Good points, daybeers. It’s partly that I have always avoided NYC and NYP—I find them confusing and too hectic for me at the best of times. 

I am planning on stopping at Mystic for a couple of nights, getting a roomette on the LSL, and using the BOS lounge —South Station is much easier for me to navigate and the lounge is friendlier and more spacious. Also doing BC when a roomette isn’t available.

I had not really thought of the extra time on the trains—I was just trying to avoid NYP—thanks for pointing it out—it is something more to think about.

If the virus numbers are going up again before the trip, I will certainly cancel.


----------



## Siegmund (Aug 29, 2020)

> Rightly or wrongly, I felt keeping the bear spray in the locked bear canister made accidental discharge very unlikely. These bear canisters are used to store food in the backcountry at campsites and are built to withstand violent attacks by large grizzly bears. The bear spray was wrapped with lots of bubble wrap and duct-taped in position so it would not shift during transit.



Wrapping it in bubble wrap is a good precaution, and one most people don't take. A lot of the accidental discharges happen when it tips over, gets knocked off a table, that sort of thing, and the wimpy little plastic trigger bites the dust. 

As for the locked bear canister -- that works well for making sure nobody sees it or tampers with it. I suspect however that IF it discharged inside the canister, gas would still escape. While they are airtight to keep food smells in, they aren't designed to resist strong outward pressure, only inward.



Skyline said:


> In case it wasn't obvious in my initial post re: bear spray, I only brought it on #8, securely stored in a puncture-proof bear canister, because bear spray is required while hiking/backpacking at my destination -- Glacier National Park.



Bear spray _is not required_ to hike in Glacier or any other US national park.

It is commonly recommended.

I personally do not carry it, and would discourage anyone who hasn't done a fair bit of practicing its use from carrying it.


----------



## Sauve850 (Aug 29, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> Um, "new Seattle station"? You mean the one that opened in 1906, King Street Station? The only Seattle Amtrak station?
> 
> That part of town has had a homeless issue for decades. They are pretty much harmless. But I would not wander aimlessly after dark in the immediate area.


You know what I meant. Newly renovated. That work for you? "Pretty much" harmless can still be problematic.


----------



## Sauve850 (Aug 29, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I too have asthma and restricted airways so spraying me would probably end very badly, but I'm curious what you would recommend for someone who feels the need to carry protection? I don't consider traveling on Amtrak to be dangerous but I only know how the routes and locations I've personally visited are likely to treat someone who looks and acts like I do. If someone looks, behaves, or travels differently than I do they might experience a different outcome.
> 
> 
> An apparently well kept secret is that homeless people are much more likely to be the victims of violence rather than perpetrators. Learning how to deal with panhandling is a good skill to have but for most encounters it's as simple as looking busy or distracted while being polite but firm without escalation.


Again, "most encounters" it is as simple as.... True but not all encounters are simple. The last two times in the Sea station many people were a bit unnerved as homesless people kept walking up and down the seating areas. They werent asking for anything just surveying folks. Perhaps if there actually was a security patrol here and there it would help the situation. Havent been there in a year so maybe situation has changed.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 29, 2020)

Sauve850 said:


> You know what I meant. Newly renovated. That work for you? "Pretty much" harmless can still be problematic.


Words have meaning. New means new. Saying King Street is new just sounds like you don't know where you are. So yes, renovated works better, since it is actually an accurate description.

That area has been a center for the homeless population for a long, long time. Well before the current homeless crisis, so it really is nothing new. Pretty much harmless means about the worst you can expect is smelling some pee or being subjected to some panhandling. No worse (or better) than most large cities.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 30, 2020)

The thing about homeless people is that they are homeless. Is walking around in a train station, when you have no home, such a surprising or worrying thing to do? 
Let's face it, we don't refuse to drive ever again, just because we got a flat tyre one time, nor expect it to rain every time we leave the house, just because it did one day. Why expect trouble from strangers all the time? Maybe once you encountered an awkward beggar, etc, but don't let that cloud your opinion of all beggars?
We all have different comfort levels, all activities carry some element of risk, it is probably up to the individual to make themselves feel comfortable, more than for society to remove our every irritation.


----------



## JayPea (Aug 30, 2020)

I was just at King Street Station Friday and they are no longer allowing anyone inside without a ticket. The doors are locked, and in order to enter the station one needs to show a ticket. And that also seemed to have an effect in the area immediately surrounding the station as there were no homeless around it either.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Aug 30, 2020)

JayPea said:


> I was just at King Street Station Friday and they are no longer allowing anyone inside without a ticket. The doors are locked, and in order to enter the station one needs to show a ticket. And that also seemed to have an effect in the area immediately surrounding the station as there were no homeless around it either.


Same at Wilm DE station, at least the “must have a ticket”. There were still people in the nearby park...which doesn’t bother me.


----------



## Skyline (Aug 30, 2020)

Siegmund said:


> Bear spray _is not required_ to hike in Glacier or any other US national park.
> 
> It is commonly recommended.
> 
> I personally do not carry it, and would discourage anyone who hasn't done a fair bit of practicing its use from carrying it.



In 2017, when I made this train-and-trails trip, I was under the impression that bear spray was indeed required. My source was a backpacking website. I have since learned bear spray is not required in GNP by law but as you say, is (highly) recommended.

Having said that, as I entered the Park near Essex via a road that passes a ranger station, a ranger intercepted me to ask if I had bear spray. I showed him; it was holstered on my belt. He insisted that I keep it there, and even made me show that I knew how to use it. He also showed me a technique about where to aim the spray that I had not previously learned.

I was in GNP for three days. Never saw a grizzly nor any bear sign. Before I got back on #8 to finish my trip eastbound, I left my bear spray and holster at the Izaak Walton Inn so it could be offered to others who might need to borrow it.


----------



## toddinde (Aug 30, 2020)

I have ridden tens of thousands of miles by rail and have never even considered the thought of having a weapon of any kind. If you’re in a coach, there are people around and if you’re in a sleeper, you can latch the door. That said, I’m a guy. My girlfriend got groped one time on the Hoosier. I still think carrying a weapon of any kind is unecessary.


----------



## flitcraft (Aug 30, 2020)

toddinde said:


> I still think carrying a weapon of any kind is unnecessary.



Not just unnecessary but affirmatively unwise. In the extremely unlikely event that a weapon is useful, it is as likely that it will be used against you as used effectively, unless you have good self-defense training. As a 5 foot 1 woman, I sympathize with your inclination for protection, but weapons aren't likely to protect you. Common sense and good judgment are the best weapons you can have, and they can't be turned against you.

As has been noted in this thread, the train and train station are probably the safest places you could be, in terms of threats from aggressive passengers. On the other hand, your plans do worry me. Talking to lots of people, staying at AirBnB's, etc. are a recipe for contracting COVID 19. And even if you are lucky and don't get sick, you could spread the virus to others that might be more vulnerable. I would rethink the nature of the trip, if I were in your shoes. Instead of one where you contact lots of folks, I'd think about a trip at this time focusing on the beauty and majesty of the countryside--something Amtrak features exceptionally well. Once the pandemic is in our rearview mirror, there will be time for a trip that focuses on interacting with people. Just my thoughts...


----------



## Steve4031 (Aug 31, 2020)

In general, Amtrak trains are safe. I view Roomettes as my safe place. However, you can never know when something strange can happen. 

years ago I was coming back from Detroit on one of my day trips on the Wolverine service. I recall two guys boarding and they had the army vet look with their clothes. The guy sitting next to me was fine. The guy across the aisle had been traumatized by combat. I was enjoying the conversation with my seat mate when the train stopped. Then the HEP went out. And the lights. My seat mate asked me what was going on. I explained to him glad to share my rail fan knowledge. Then he talked to the other guy. There were several starts, stops, and hep failures. The other guy talked about Vietcong, etc. my seat mate asked me more questions, I told him. We got to Battle Creek and the Other guy got off. My seat mate thanked me profusely for explaining what was happening with the train because he used this information to to “talk down” the other guy. My seat mate noted that he observed the other guy eyeing the axe that was stored in a glassed in panel. If he had been unable to to talk this guy down he might have gone after the axe And then after passengers. I was stunned. At the time I was totally unaware that this danger was imminent.

The moral of the story is that we never can completely be sure. Have an escape plan or plan of action that reduces the chance of conflict. Me, I know I would leave the area and notify the crew. I know where to find them.


----------



## Steve4031 (Aug 31, 2020)

I know the OP expressed concern about safety around stations. This depends on the station. Larger stations are safer because there are likely to be security staff present. Of police. Smaller stations depends on a lot of variables. I would ask about Specific stations. You cabs or Lyft instead of walking. Check availability of cabs and Lyft before you plan to be some where.


----------

