# EB mess



## greatcats

Now that the famed hamster has safely arrived in Syracuse, on to less pressing matters. I saw something about the EB was routed through New Rockford, ND, but yesterday's #8 just arrived in Chicago nearly 21 hours late. What messed up this time? Must have been a really fun trip.


----------



## buddy559

I thought I read somewhere, there was a cargo derailment that delayed it.


----------



## RalphCT

There was a derailment in North Dakota east of Williston. The west bound 7 made it past the site before the tracks were blocked. But the east bound 8 got halted at Williston until the tracks were cleared.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I think the EB got detoured around this guy:


----------



## SANSR

"........and your little dog too!"


----------



## SarahZ

Oh my god...


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Wait, the EB couldn't have been delayed because of that hamster, he's clearly in Atlanta.

On a more serious note (and because you can't eat hamsters):

What does Amtrak do about food when trains like the EB are so late? I could see skipping a meal, but I can't imagine Amtrak keeps people onboard for 21 hours without food.

I was wondering about that especially in terms of the westbound 27, which doesn't even have a dining car after Spokane, and has been averaging 5 hours late for its 10:10 am arrival into Portland - and several times it has been as late as 11:00 pm. I've read stories where Amtrak has picked up food from KFC or Subways along the route, but you'd hope with the EB's situation that they'd have something planned nowadays.


----------



## SarahZ

They probably serve up the Dinty Moore special and a whole mess o' snack packs.


----------



## tim49424

D.P. Roberts said:


> I've read stories where Amtrak has picked up food from KFC or Subways along the route, but you'd hope with the EB's situation that they'd have something planned nowadays.



I was on 27 back in May, 2012 when we were nine hours late into Portland and yes, those stories are true. We actually did Subway in Spokane and KFC in Pasco. When running relatively on time, a cold breakfast is scheduled to be served. I have no clue as to what that consists of, as I've had reservations on 27 twice and not experienced the cold one. We were so late on that 2012 trip that we got a hot breakfast, arriving in Spokane about 10 AM. My second trip, in June 2013, the train ended in Spokane and we were transported by bus to Portland/Seattle as we were six hours late. We did get a hot breakfast that time too. No lunch, however.


----------



## amamba

Emergency KFC picture on my blog from a very late train.


----------



## CHamilton

When 27 is on time, passengers get a boxed breakfast. I found this one from 2012 to be quite good.






Of course, being able to eat one's breakfast along the Columbia River helps


----------



## Texan Eagle

Am I dreaming or have their been derailments on the Hi-Line once every fortnight or so off late? At this rate, Amtrak should just give up on timetable for EB and advertise it as "*it will reach when it reaches. Board if you dare!*"


----------



## RalphCT

Texan Eagle said:


> Am I dreaming or have their been derailments on the Hi-Line once every fortnight or so off late? At this rate, Amtrak should just give up on timetable for EB and advertise it as "*it will reach when it reaches. Board if you dare!*"


You are not dreaming. Heavy freight, grain and oil shipments are strewing the route to the max. This has wrecked havoc with the EB schedules. I'm hoping for a good ridge SBY to MSP in two weeks. I'm starting my offerings to the rail gods this weekend.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

Time to bring southern Montana/North Dakota line back up to passenger standards.


----------



## RalphCT

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Time to bring southern Montana/North Dakota line back up to passenger standards.


Agree. This is especially important in Montana where the EB serves towns without air or interstate highway availability. 

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## Tumbleweed

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Time to bring southern Montana/North Dakota line back up to passenger standards.


Fer sure!


----------



## montana mike

I see BOTH #7 and #8 were just put into "Service Disruption" status today. Another derailment--I hope not!!!!

What an unreal mess for the EBs this winter.

:-(


----------



## Texan Eagle

Any estimates how much money Amtrak is losing on the EB due to all these delays? I can think of extra costs incurred due to-

1) Additional crew being deployed

2) Extra fuel burnt (N extra hours x 2 locomotives per train)

3) Hotel stays for stranded passengers and crew

4) Extra meals to passengers

5) Refunding ticket fare and/or issuing vouchers to disgruntled passengers who call Customer Service

etc etc

At some point, would it make more economic sense for Amtrak to just cancel EB indefinitely until the mess can be settled? Or does that risk going Sunset East way with train service never resuming?


----------



## Shortline

Texan Eagle said:


> At some point, would it make more economic sense for Amtrak to just cancel EB indefinitely until the mess can be settled? Or does that risk going Sunset East way with train service never resuming?


Wondering the same thing...things just can't continue like this indefinitely, suspending service makes a lot of sense, but getting back to operation might prove difficult-traffic on the line is only going to continue to increase. Oil loading terminals are still being built, with many more planned. If the trains are suspended, I can see it being difficult to ever get back on the tracks. Would also mean a lot of layoffs and furloughs I would think, from T&E, OBS, and station workers-but, something surely has to give eventually....keep trying to run with this level of service and the train will surely die a slow painful death anyway....this has to have an effect on bookings. I have a trip to Minot coming up soon...will be flying.....


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> I see BOTH #7 and #8 were just put into "Service Disruption" status today. Another derailment--I hope not!!!!
> 
> What an unreal mess for the EBs this winter.
> 
> :-(


I noticed the Service Disruption also. Not sure what caused this one though.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## jebr

They really need to put a service alert on the train. Right now there's nothing for the average passenger that would indicate that the Builder is having major issues. Even communication and setting expectations can help make a better experience for passengers.


----------



## montana mike

Speaking of oil terminals on the Hi-Line, in MT the plans for eastern MT include spending over 1/2 BILLION on oil field infrastructure by various energy firms in the next two to three years! Plus, my BNSF guy says he heard that another 4,000 tanker cars where recently ordered. BNSF should be building a double track line NOW!!

I keep on reminding my non-MT friends on the Forum that while these temps in ND-MT-MN are indeed very cold, they are something that people in this region do see on a fairly regular basis at least several times each winter. What is unusual perhaps is the very cold temps in the Chicago area.

As one who depends on the EB for at least 8 trips each year I would feel really bad if the EB service was suspended, but I understand. At least I have air service that I could use. There are thousands of current passengers on the Hi-Line who have no access to air service. Plus, traveling in the winter on the hi-line via highways is not something I would ever recommend to anyone.......


----------



## fairviewroad

As a "data point" of sorts, my in-laws were set to take 27 from GFK to PDX, boarding yesterday morning. 7/27 was being detoured via New Rockford

due to the derailment mentioned upthread. Amtrak called and advised of a bustitution from GFK to Minot. Bus ride was uneventful, and train left

Minot about 3 hours late. Arrive PDX this morning about 70 minutes late, allowing them to catch a Thruway bus connection that Amtrak had warned

via a phone call a week ago that they were no longer "guaranteed" to catch.

Bottom line is they arrived their final destination (SLM) precisely on time and had an enjoyable trip. Two of them had never taken a train before so

I was a little hesitant to recommend the EB in January. But it worked out decently well. Which just goes to show that despite everything, the EB is not

a _complete_ screw-up this winter.


----------



## mwmnp

montana mike said:


> I see BOTH #7 and #8 were just put into "Service Disruption" status today. Another derailment--I hope not!!!!
> 
> What an unreal mess for the EBs this winter.
> 
> :-(


Due to the blizzard conditions and cold east of Havre and west of St. Paul, 8(25) terminated in Havre while 7(26) terminated in St. Paul. I have not heard what, if anything, Amtrak did to accommodate the passengers ticketed beyond those stations on those trains.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

mwmnp said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see BOTH #7 and #8 were just put into "Service Disruption" status today. Another derailment--I hope not!!!!
> 
> What an unreal mess for the EBs this winter.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Due to the blizzard conditions and cold east of Havre and west of St. Paul, 8(25) terminated in Havre while 7(26) terminated in St. Paul. I have not heard what, if anything, Amtrak did to accommodate the passengers ticketed beyond those stations on those trains.
Click to expand...

Yikes! I understand Amtrak needing to bustitute people for short trips, but St. Paul-Chicago is 400 miles, and Havre-Portland is 800 miles! Personally, I would not get on a bus for a 12+ hour, 800 mile trip. Is there a limit on how far Amtrak can/will go for a bustitution?


----------



## jebr

D.P. Roberts said:


> mwmnp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see BOTH #7 and #8 were just put into "Service Disruption" status today. Another derailment--I hope not!!!!
> 
> What an unreal mess for the EBs this winter.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Due to the blizzard conditions and cold east of Havre and west of St. Paul, 8(25) terminated in Havre while 7(26) terminated in St. Paul. I have not heard what, if anything, Amtrak did to accommodate the passengers ticketed beyond those stations on those trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yikes! I understand Amtrak needing to bustitute people for short trips, but St. Paul-Chicago is 400 miles, and Havre-Portland is 800 miles! Personally, I would not get on a bus for a 12+ hour, 800 mile trip. Is there a limit on how far Amtrak can/will go for a bustitution?
Click to expand...

It's actually cancelled from Havre to St. Paul, which is 936 miles on roads that were closed yesterday. I'm guessing through passengers were put somewhere and had to wait until the next train to go through to get to their destination. Buses aren't going through there right now.


----------



## anir dendroica

Pleasantly surprised to see #7 leaving not-so-late from Chicago today despite round 2 of the polar vortex. #8(26) is already east of Havre and blizzard conditions have ended, so it looks like the annulments were a one-day affair.

With this being a low-ridership period, I wonder if there were enough seats on today's trains to accommodate those spending an unexpected night in Havre or MSP?


----------



## RalphCT

I would think the blizzard conditions is what forced the Service Disruption yesterday. I spent a day in a Minot motel one year when blizzards closed roads and rails in North Dakota. It is cold in the North Country today but then it is frequently quite cold northwest of Minneapolis and into North Dakota.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## Nathanael

D.P. Roberts said:


> I think the EB got detoured around this guy:


For some reason, that photo makes me want to live there.... I guess I just really like the idea of giant hamsters...


----------



## jebr

What's been happening with the eastbound Builders lately in eastern ND and MN? They seem to be losing a _lot_ of time there. For example, 8 on 1/29 was "only" 4 hours late into Minot, but lost _seven more hours _between there and Fargo. It also took over two hours to get from St. Cloud to St. Paul, which normally can be covered in about an hour and a half. 1/28 was even worse, only about an hour down by Minot but 10 hours by Fargo. It then lost another two hours between St. Paul and Red Wing.

I'm planning on taking the Builder in about a week to WIN for a day trip, but at this point I'll wind up getting into WIN after the 7 leaves for the evening!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jebr said:


> They really need to put a service alert on the train. Right now there's nothing for the average passenger that would indicate that the Builder is having major issues. Even communication and setting expectations can help make a better experience for passengers.


Agreed.

Maybe they should market it as a flaky undeveloped third world experience for yuppies who want to slum it up North.


----------



## mkeroad

I had booked the EB in March from PDX to CBS and yesterday I called the station in CBS to see if I should take a different route home.

He told me to expect a 2 -3 hr delay but the recent two or three days 12 hr delays was from track repair in the Dakotas


----------



## montana mike

I just returned from my westward trek on the Empire Builder last night-or should I say this morning--got into WFH at 4:29 AM (scheduled time 8:56 PM the night before). This time a frozen switch was added to the heavy freight traffic mix. And this was a CPR issue just outside of MSP, not BNSF. We did take the Surrey cutoff on our way west, and according to the conductor, this will be in place for at least several more days, perhaps longer (westbound trains on the SC and eastbound thru Devil's Lake Sub). Quite frankly we actually picked up some time using this alternative. Even tough we were limited to 60-65 mph there were no stops (other than a couple freights just outside of Minot). A different part of ND for sure, plus we got to see the remains of the big oil train fire too-my oh my.....

I would agree, if the delays were just due to freight at the moment a traveler should expect 2-3 hour delays as the norm at each ending point, but this winter weather has wreaked havoc on equipment.

BTW-Amtrak had a CR person on the train from MSP all the way to SEA to deal with the myriad of missed, delayed and confused issues. He was verrrry busy. #7 is scheduled to arrive in SEA today about 5 hours behind-I guess that means they get an extra meal on board??


----------



## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe they should market it as a flaky undeveloped third world experience for yuppies who want to slum it up North.


/snort


----------



## montana mike

Another brutally bad day for the Empire Builder. #7(2) is heading west thru ND. It left CHI on time yesterday, but has managed to drop over 7 hours and it still is not thru the "gauntlet" completely. Arrrrrrgh.


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> Another brutally bad day for the Empire Builder. #7(2) is heading west thru ND. It left CHI on time yesterday, but has managed to drop over 7 hours and it still is not thru the "gauntlet" completely. Arrrrrrgh.


 Gauntlet seems like a good word for it. Over the weekend I watched the train status change. The eastbound EB (8) was on time as far east as Minot (MOT) but ended up being 6-7 hours late into MSP. Some passengers then are getting decent service but those traveling longer distances are spending much more time than anticipated on the train. One week to go before I run the "gauntlet" from SBY to MSP. Thank my lucky stars I'll be in a sleeper.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## fairviewroad

Yes, the experience does certainly vary depending on the destination and the whims of nature/BNSF/Amtrak. My in-laws

returned to GFK on 8 over the weekend. Their train arrived in GFK a "mere" 80 minutes late. Had they traveled a day

earlier, they would have arrived *10 hours* late. And had they traveled one day later (i.e. this morning) they would have

arrived in GFK only 15 minutes late.

So despite my warnings of the potential for a seriously delayed train, their EB journey got them to their west coast destination

_on time_, and back to their home _just over an hour late_. They enjoyed the train ride and saved about $900 over the cost of flying.

For them, it certainly wasn't a "flaky undeveloped third world experience for yuppies who want to slum it up North". It was cost-

effective transportation that largely worked as advertised. I understand they "got lucky" but before we write off the EB entirely,

I just wanted to point out that it can and does work for some of its passengers, even during this clusterbleep of a winter.


----------



## montana mike

Wait until construction season begins in a few months!!

:-(


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Let's try this again...



fairviewroad said:


> I understand they "got lucky" but...


Speaking of luck I've seen roulette wheels with better odds than the Empire Builder. *[/sarcasm]*


----------



## montana mike

Looking at the EB's this AM--ALL are very late--with the westbound #7 in MT now almost 12 hours behind (even though it left CHI just 23 minutes late). Ouch......My BNSF contact here locally says things are not going to improve very much in 2014 and that pax on the EB's should be prepared for very late trains at least some of the time. He defined "very late" by 8-12 hours behind schedule. He said between the increasing freight traffic of all types and the massive construction plans for parts of the Hi-Line, there will be days on the Hi-Line this summer where these types of delays may be fairly common. He said BNSF has officially notified Amtrak of this situation....whatever good that will do.


----------



## RalphCT

I also noted the very late trains this morning (Feb 6). When summer construction season starts winding up there will undoubtably be heavy delays, amtrak just needs to explain that to the traveling public and, where possible, temporarily adjust schedules. Hopefully the construction, which I feel is desperately needed in some areas, will eventually lead to better traffic flow for both passenger and freight traffic.

Still looking forward to my ride next week SBY to MSP. Since I've been following the train status reports I am aware that arrival in MSP 3-4 hours later than scheduled seems to be common. I'll enjoy breakfast before arrival and my friends are expecting a late arrival so won't be disappointed.

But for those passengers who may be traveling Amtrak for the first time or who don't follow the train status it could be quite a shock to find out you'll spend a third night on the train when going end to end. For everyone's benefit Amtrak should be very proactive about providing information to passengers about what's happening.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Looking at the EB's this AM--ALL are very late--with the westbound #7 in MT now almost 12 hours behind (even though it left CHI just 23 minutes late). Ouch......My BNSF contact here locally says things are not going to improve very much in 2014 and that pax on the EB's should be prepared for very late trains at least some of the time. He defined "very late" by 8-12 hours behind schedule. He said between the increasing freight traffic of all types and the massive construction plans for parts of the Hi-Line, there will be days on the Hi-Line this summer where these types of delays may be fairly common. He said BNSF has officially notified Amtrak of this situation....whatever good that will do.





montana mike said:


> Looking at the EB's this AM--ALL are very late--with the westbound #7 in MT now almost 12 hours behind (even though it left CHI just 23 minutes late). Ouch......My BNSF contact here locally says things are not going to improve very much in 2014 and that pax on the EB's should be prepared for very late trains at least some of the time. He defined "very late" by 8-12 hours behind schedule. He said between the increasing freight traffic of all types and the massive construction plans for parts of the Hi-Line, there will be days on the Hi-Line this summer where these types of delays may be fairly common. He said BNSF has officially notified Amtrak of this situation....whatever good that will do.


and now they take away our little bottle of apple juice and the flowers off the table


----------



## montana mike

Losing the W&C was the biggest blow!!! Great time to relax and have fun--oh, well......they just don't care about offering exceptional service. That would have been one way to try to capture loyal and returning customers.

Hah-Maybe we could get BH to foot the bill for the Sleeper amenities as a way to "payback Amtrak" for all of the delays??? Just kidding--sort of.


----------



## Blackwolf

The cynic in me just wants to scream. The Empire Builder: Amtrak's double-edged dagger! Not that long ago, Amtrak was extolling the ridership numbers on the EB and how it was becoming one of it's best performing routes, if not _the _best. Now, Amtrak probably wishes they could just kill the train and bury its memory deep in one of those oil wells, never to be mentioned again.

Out of curiosity, are they still rolling with the 6th trainset?


----------



## fairviewroad

Blackwolf said:


> Out of curiosity, are they still rolling with the 6th trainset?


Appears so, since the west-bound train is still frequently arrived in SEA/PDX far too late to for a timely same-day turn. And the east bound departures are still

happening more or less on-time.


----------



## yarrow

Blackwolf said:


> Out of curiosity, are they still rolling with the 6th trainset?


we were in pdx last week and saw the pdx part of the extra set at the station though if 27 arrives early enough to be turned for 28 it appears they use the trainset that just came as opposed to the extra


----------



## Blackwolf

yarrow said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, are they still rolling with the 6th trainset?
> 
> 
> 
> we were in pdx last week and saw the pdx part of the extra set at the station though if 27 arrives early enough to be turned for 28 it appears they use the trainset that just came as opposed to the extra
Click to expand...

If they were same-day turning even with a protect-set sitting there, that seems very odd to me. I would think the crews would like having the time to service the equipment at their leisure instead of rush-jobbing it. Spend that extra time actually cleaning, doing minor repairs, pumping the lavatories, etc.


----------



## Tumbleweed

Well, looks like the bustitiution FAR-GFK-DVL-MOT is still in effect....I was notified that my 2/13 arrival in DVL is affected....guess I'll change destination to FAR and rent a car rather than do the bus gig in the middle of the night.....


----------



## fairviewroad

Tumbleweed said:


> Well, looks like the bustitiution FAR-GFK-DVL-MOT is still in effect....I was notified that my 2/13 arrival in DVL is affected....guess I'll change destination to FAR and rent a car rather than do the bus gig in the middle of the night.....


Happily, due to the frequent lateness of the Builder, the bustitution often does NOT happen in the middle of the night.


----------



## Tumbleweed

fairviewroad said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, looks like the bustitiution FAR-GFK-DVL-MOT is still in effect....I was notified that my 2/13 arrival in DVL is affected....guess I'll change destination to FAR and rent a car rather than do the bus gig in the middle of the night.....
> 
> 
> 
> Happily, due to the frequent lateness of the Builder, the bustitution often does NOT happen in the middle of the night.
Click to expand...

True dat...but I'd still rather rent a car in FAR rather than ride a bus to DVL, and still have to rent one there..... :unsure:


----------



## TraneMan

Waiting for 8 to come to RDW. Looks like been sitting in hasting for a while. Few train came past the station going North.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Tumbleweed

Wow...looks like even the bustitution will not be available 2/8-28 from FAR-GFK-MOT.....they show sold out on those dates.....unless a person has maybe already made a reservation.... hboy:


----------



## yarrow

Blackwolf said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, are they still rolling with the 6th trainset?
> 
> 
> 
> we were in pdx last week and saw the pdx part of the extra set at the station though if 27 arrives early enough to be turned for 28 it appears they use the trainset that just came as opposed to the extra
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they were same-day turning even with a protect-set sitting there, that seems very odd to me. I would think the crews would like having the time to service the equipment at their leisure instead of rush-jobbing it. Spend that extra time actually cleaning, doing minor repairs, pumping the lavatories, etc.
Click to expand...

yeah, well you know amtrak. i'm sure there is some sort of high level directive about which set to use


----------



## montana mike

This is getting so bad that even Hollywood couldn't make this up in a disaster movie!! All of the EBs today are verrrrrry late and #7, out of CHI is over two hours late and still has not left the station. Grim........

Thank goodness they have the extra train set at PDX and SEA, otherwise this would be a 3 day a week experience. Oh, I just can't wait until this summer.


----------



## greatcats

How is this for a brilliant idea? Reroute the Empire Builder on the CP via Vancouver, Banff, and to Winnipeg. Then into North Dakota and then via Crookston, MN, where I believe GN used to set out a sleeper and then to the Twin Cities. Of course, this can readily be set up in a few weeks time. ( Is it April Fools' Day yet? )


----------



## Texan Eagle

I did EB CHI-PDX late last year and told my non-railfan friends how much fun it was and the amenities onboard. I told them how there is a wine and cheese tasting session, you get champagne or sparkling apple juice in your room, local newspaper is delivered enroute, there is a Dining Car beautifully decorated with flowers at tables et al.. and a couple of them were sold on it, they decided they want to ride the train for the experience this summer.

Come now, I told them- sorry, there will be no more wine and cheese tasting, no more champagne in room, no more newspapers, no more flowers in the Dining Car and the train runs 8-12 hours late on average. Their reaction- as expected- "what the hell! We don't want to go for the 'experience' anymore. Amtrak sucks, no wonder nobody travels by trains except old retired folks with tons of free time and nothing to do" and cancelled their tickets. Well, can't blame them. I had painted a rosy picture of EB being a nice vacation option, and now it looks like anything but a fun vacation.


----------



## jebr

Texan Eagle said:


> I did EB CHI-PDX late last year and told my non-railfan friends how much fun it was and the amenities onboard. I told them how there is a wine and cheese tasting session, you get champagne or sparkling apple juice in your room, local newspaper is delivered enroute, there is a Dining Car beautifully decorated with flowers at tables et al.. and a couple of them were sold on it, they decided they want to ride the train for the experience this summer.
> 
> Come now, I told them- sorry, there will be no more wine and cheese tasting, no more champagne in room, no more newspapers, no more flowers in the Dining Car and the train runs 8-12 hours late on average. Their reaction- as expected- "what the hell! We don't want to go for the 'experience' anymore. Amtrak sucks, no wonder nobody travels by trains except old retired folks with tons of free time and nothing to do" and cancelled their tickets. Well, can't blame them. I had painted a rosy picture of EB being a nice vacation option, and now it looks like anything but a fun vacation.


If someone framed it that drastically, then yeah, I'd probably bail too.

But if someone framed to me that there were some changes, but that I would still have a (delayed) trip throughout the Great North, having a nice steak dinner with wine (which, yes, the wine has to be purchased) and cheesecake (along with the two other meals of the day,) then going back to a warm room with juice to mix with whatever I may want to bring on board, and have a private room to relax in and enjoy the journey...then yes, it would be more appealing.

Ultimately, though, Amtrak's purpose is to transport people from point A to point B. And BNSF is making that hard to do efficiently and reliably on the Builder's line.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

jebr said:


> Ultimately, though, Amtrak's purpose is to transport people from point A to point B. And BNSF is making that hard to do efficiently and reliably on the Builder's line.


Agreed. I'll miss the amenities, but if forced to choose between the two, I would take an on-time schedule back in a heartbeat. At this point, my greatest hope about a potential trip on the EB would be to

A) actually get to my destination

B) on an actual train (and not on a bus)

C) somewhere near my estimated arrival time.

If I get those things, I'll be happy with it.


----------



## montana mike

#7 in Central Washington now 13+ hours late and continuing to lose time at every station--arrrrgh. BTW--#7 left CHI around 5 hours late.

:-((


----------



## Gabe

To put a bit of an optimistic tone on the issues of late, does anybody know of any scenic highlights that are often missed at night, but would be passed in daylight in an extreme delay?

I've got a trip to SEA planned for next month, and I honestly wouldn't mind a large enough delay that puts Glacier into daylight for #7.


----------



## greatcats

I would like to see the Idaho trackage by daylight. Gosh, I made a joke earlier, but maybe it would make better time routed through Canada!


----------



## Cma

Even after reading these posts I will be riding the EB this summer. I could do it either direction . Any thoughts of which would be the better way to go. I may make a couple days break in Glacier.


----------



## montana mike

For scenery thru Glacier National Park take the east bound trek, otherwise you will likely be too late to see much of anything going westbound


----------



## tim49424

greatcats said:


> I would like to see the Idaho trackage by daylight.



This happened to me when I was on #7 back in June, 2012. The scenery at Sandpoint is simply breathtaking.


----------



## andersone

I am going to Glacier on EB in August. I am catching her at LCE and my hope was it would be there in time for us to have dinner (scheduled at 7:14) PM. I am hoping she leaves CHI on time,,, and we lose all the time west of MPL,, looking forward to that steak,,,,


----------



## Nathanael

Tumbleweed said:


> Well, looks like the bustitiution FAR-GFK-DVL-MOT is still in effect....I was notified that my 2/13 arrival in DVL is affected....guess I'll change destination to FAR and rent a car rather than do the bus gig in the middle of the night.....


It is disturbing that Amtrak does not currently see fit to provide a service alert for this.

I know the LD trains tend to run late, but bustitutions are actually fairly unusual, and if they're ongoing for weeks it's just poor customer service not to notify people prior to booking.


----------



## yarrow

greatcats said:


> I would like to see the Idaho trackage by daylight. Gosh, I made a joke earlier, but maybe it would make better time routed through Canada!


we were on a 9 hour late eb heading to spk in september and got to run along the kootenai river in daylight. very, very nice. of course, gn used to schedule the eb for daylight running through such a scenic section


----------



## fairviewroad

Nathanael said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, looks like the bustitiution FAR-GFK-DVL-MOT is still in effect....I was notified that my 2/13 arrival in DVL is affected....guess I'll change destination to FAR and rent a car rather than do the bus gig in the middle of the night.....
> 
> 
> 
> It is disturbing that Amtrak does not currently see fit to provide a service alert for this.
> 
> I know the LD trains tend to run late, but bustitutions are actually fairly unusual, and if they're ongoing for weeks it's just poor customer service not to notify people prior to booking.
Click to expand...

I agree there should be a service alert. But in this case, Amtrak has blocked out bookings to GFK, DVL and RUG through most of February. The only people being bustituted at this point are people who booked their tickets prior to the diversions, and those people are being notified by phone.


----------



## montana mike

I just wish Amtrak would let potential customers know that #8 and #7 are experiencing very long delays (look at today's roster--just a mess, with #7 looking like it will not even depart until after 6 PM tonight-arrrrgh)--and that passengers should be aware of this and make travel plans accordingly. I was 7 hours late on my #7 ride about a week ago and that appears to be almost the norm now.


----------



## Tumbleweed

Actually, it would work better for me if they are 6-7 hours late...would make for a mid-morning arrival into FAR......


----------



## TraneMan

What's up with the late start out of CHI? I am leaving CHI on Sunday, hope that is not going to happen to us.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## CHamilton

From the Facebook Empire Builder group:



> Just got in to Seattle King Street on #7 today [sat 2/8]. 5 hours 37 minutes late leaving Chicago! ... First they said it was a crew rest issue. Then they said it was something wrong with one of the coaches. Then something else wrong.... Frozen shower drains. Then HEP blew up just after passing Cascade Tunnel. so no lights or toilets for last 2 hours of the trip. what a mess! 7 hours 15 minutes late to King Street. ...


----------



## Steve Manfred

Another Minneapolis Star-Tribune story on the Empire Builder mess: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/travel/244616791.html


----------



## Guest

If you try doing an Empire Builder booking on amtrak.com it warns about the number 7/27 detour from Fargo to Minot until February 28. Also it says to expect long delays due to freight train congestion. So a customer can find out about this but only if they actually try to book travel on the Empire Builder


----------



## yarrow

anybody know the deal with 28 out of pdx yesterday. looked like they didn't have the protect set available as 28 apparently had to wait for 27 to arrive and be turned. it's now very late. 8 left sea on time yesterday and evidently has been waiting in spk for 28????


----------



## CHamilton

PDX has gotten quite a bit of snow, which caused frozen switches and delayed or cancelled several Cascades trains (as well as freight, and, I assume, 28). We even got a little snow here in SEA last night.


----------



## CHamilton

The AP story that Steve linked to above is making the rounds, here in the Seattle P-I website.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/texas/article/ND-oil-freight-shipments-detour-Amtrak-trains-5218642.php


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> anybody know the deal with 28 out of pdx yesterday. looked like they didn't have the protect set available as 28 apparently had to wait for 27 to arrive and be turned. it's now very late. 8 left sea on time yesterday and evidently has been waiting in spk for 28????


#28 waited in PDX, for four hours, for the late Coast Starlight. Then promptly encountered an additional two hour delay due to freight congestion and frozen switches.


----------



## TraneMan

Waiting in the Metro lounge and they just announced the mechanical

Shop said that 7 is delayed an hour.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## montana mike

#7 and #8 in western MT now 8 and 13 hours late--just one of those days I guess.

:-((


----------



## TraneMan

Now been told 5:15

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## TraneMan

We pulled out of CUS at 5:50. At last!

-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## diesteldorf

TraneMan said:


> Waiting in the Metro lounge and they just announced the mechanical
> 
> Shop said that 7 is delayed an hour.
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


For those that don't know, I used to regularly ride the Builder out of La Crosse, WI going to Chicago and from Chicago back to La Crosse.

Up until last week, they were regularly running buses for those riding from St Paul to Chicago. For whatever reason, they decided to stop any further bustitutions. I can understand that this was probably monitarily costly for Amtrak, but was, in my mind, a necessary evil.

Unfortunately, we were booked on #8 on Saturday, Feb 1st from LSE to CHI, connecting to the City of New Orleans to catch a cruise ship that Monday. I didn't receive any notification that there was no alternate transportation until 9:42 Saturday morning via email, only an hour before departure.

This resulted in the person I was traveling with having to drive from La Crosse to Milwaukee, at the last minute, to catch the 3:00 PM Hiawatha.

In spite of everything, I had a great cruise, and will most definitely ride Amtrak in the future. However, I still plan to call customer relations this week. I would've appreciated more than an hour notice, especially when bustitutions had been running regularly during previous weeks.


----------



## Nathanael

FWIW, there is now a service alert up. Someone listened.  Thank you, anonymous Amtrak website/communications person.


----------



## jebr

I also saw this at the SCD station yesterday. It's a start, though I only got a call for my final RDW - SCD segment (even though that was way closer to on-time than any of my eastbound segments.)


----------



## Bob Dylan

Let's face it folks, Chicago has become the Black Hole of Amtrak! Maybe Amtrak should just Cancel ALL Trains until Winter is Over, this will give them time to Perform required Mechanical Repairs, Inspections etc., to, Hire OBS and T&E Crew to fill the Empty Extra Boards and for Joe Boardman and the 60 Mass Braintrust to Select some Execs with Railroad Management Skills (not Bean Counters or Politicians) that can come in and "Kick Ass and Take Names!"

I was hoping the New Mangers in Chicago would Make a Difference but the Whole Operation Has Become a Cluster Flub and it's Not BNSF or the Oil Companies Fault for what's happening on the Routes that aren't the Hi-Line! (the Extreme Weather we Understand but it's Much More than that, it's a Total Failure of Management!) YMMV


----------



## montana mike

I am not a rail person, but I would have to agree something may be awry in CHI. The ability of that hub to service and turn the trains in a reasonable amount of time appears to have broken down. Yes, the Empire Builders are dragging in 4, 6, 8 hours late for example, but that still gives the folks in CHI plenty of time to ready a train set for the next day's run--I would think. Perhaps I am missing something here, and I welcome any additional insight in this regard, but the weather and the BNSF issues cannot account for all of the issues that have surfaced.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/n-d-oil-freight-shipments-detour-amtrak-trains-derail-ice/article_97ee771c-919c-11e3-a2dc-001a4bcf887a.html

ice fishing derailed


----------



## Steve Manfred

I've been watching the status of the train I was going to use to get part of the way to Los Angeles. Empire Builder #7 that left yesterday (Feb 9). Boy, am I glad I cancelled this trip. Already 8 hours behind and not even out of Minnesota yet.


----------



## montana mike

In all of my years of riding the Empire Builders I don't recall seeing anything quite like this-and things continue to get worse too. The "routine" is now becoming 8-12 hours late into CHI and even the west coast arrivals are averaging 4-6 hours late, with some even more than 8. I had a "heart-to-heart" with one of my local BNSF buddies this weekend and he said BNSF is having soooooooo much trouble moving its own freight now that the system is very close to grid lock at times. He also stated, for the record, that senior management was well aware of the increased traffic forecasts well over two years ago and chose to "bank current profits" then and not invest in the infrastructure that was needed to support the forecasts at the time. He said this decision was made not by BNSF, but by their Berkshire Hathaway owners. Mr Buffett is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> He also stated, for the record, that senior management was well aware of the increased traffic forecasts well over two years ago and chose to "bank current profits" then and not invest in the infrastructure that was needed to support the forecasts at the time. He said this decision was made not by BNSF, but by their Berkshire Hathaway owners. Mr Buffett is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.


THAT is the group of people that I'm pissed at. I'm willing to be that said senior management doesn't live anywhere near there and couldn't possibly care less that their decisions are screwing over thousands of people that just want to get from Point A to Point B in a reasonable fashion.



jebr said:


> I also saw this at the SCD station yesterday. It's a start, though I only got a call for my final RDW - SCD segment (even though that was way closer to on-time than any of my eastbound segments.)


The dates in the fine print at the bottom amuse me.


----------



## montana mike

This all goes back to having "non-railroad" people owning and running a railroad. Clearly the bean counters and "suits" at BH don't have a clue as to how to run this railroad and have made a mess of things in their first several years' of ownership. All of my local BNSF contacts have told me for quite some time now that the career BNSF people were telling their new owners of the "train wreck" (pardon the pun) that was going to happen, but the powers that be at BH HQ basically ignored them and kept referring to them only as one of their "profit centers". It was ONLY when BNSF was getting some really bad national press in the media that these "suits" started paying attention to the mess they had created.

PS--I agree, interesting "fine print" on that notice!!!


----------



## Nathanael

montana mike said:


> He also stated, for the record, that senior management was well aware of the increased traffic forecasts well over two years ago and chose to "bank current profits" then and not invest in the infrastructure that was needed to support the forecasts at the time. He said this decision was made not by BNSF, but by their Berkshire Hathaway owners. Mr Buffett is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.


This is a very stupid error. First rule of railroads is don't underinvest in the infrastructure; I figured that out decades back. This mistake is going to lose Buffett several billion dollars.

Frankly, Buffett appears to know better than that, because he specified when he bought the railroad (in his annual letter) that it was extremely capital-intensive. Which raises the question of who, below Buffett and above middle management, didn't understand this.


----------



## montana mike

If you know anything about BH the buck does indeed stop with WB and his handpicked inner circle. He has known all along what is going on. He also takes the train (his special private cars--verrrrrry nice) fairly often--He was in WFH for example, several times in 2013 and was even caught in some of the energy slow downs as well. You are absolutely right about their total lack of vision in not investing in their infrastructure. But then again, my friends and contacts here locally have seen that since the day BNSF was sold to BH. It was two years before anyone at BH HQ would even acknowledge the lack of improvements. BH was squeezing every penny they could out of BNSF without spending anything (or at least not spending what they should have). They are scrambling to try to catch up now, but as ALL of my "locals" say, they are a "day late and a few billion short".

:-((


----------



## Ispolkom

I often heard that BNSF stands for "Brand New Santa Fe." I wonder if the railroad's focus on improving the Southern Transcon made it short-change the Hi Line, or if management just couldn't focus on two major construction projects at once.


----------



## Tumbleweed

(tinfoil hat on) We're headed for a government takeover h34r: (tinfoil hat off)


----------



## Karl1459

montana mike said:


> This all goes back to having "non-railroad" people owning and running a railroad. Clearly the bean counters and "suits" at BH don't have a clue as to how to run this railroad and have made a mess of things in their first several years' of ownership. All of my local BNSF contacts have told me for quite some time now that the career BNSF people were telling their new owners of the "train wreck" (pardon the pun) that was going to happen, but the powers that be at BH HQ basically ignored them and kept referring to them only as one of their "profit centers". It was ONLY when BNSF was getting some really bad national press in the media that these "suits" started paying attention to the mess they had created.
> 
> PS--I agree, interesting "fine print" on that notice!!!


A wise teacher once remarked to their students "A few of you will be alert enough to learn from the mistakes of others... The rest will have to learn from their own."


----------



## Guest

So if the eastbound builders get into Chicago in the middle of the night, does the train start getting serviced right away or not until the morning?


----------



## Nathanael

montana mike said:


> If you know anything about BH the buck does indeed stop with WB and his handpicked inner circle.


I would certainly expect his inner circle to make poor decisions. It's the fact that he personally wrote a letter stating explicitly that he understood that a railroad needed huge capital investments that seems to be in contrast to the results.



> He has known all along what is going on. He also takes the train (his special private cars--verrrrrry nice) fairly often--He was in WFH for example, several times in 2013 and was even caught in some of the energy slow downs as well.


Maybe (sigh) he did the usual thing of paying no real attention to the business after he bought it.



> You are absolutely right about their total lack of vision in not investing in their infrastructure. But then again, my friends and contacts here locally have seen that since the day BNSF was sold to BH. It was two years before anyone at BH HQ would even acknowledge the lack of improvements.


The way the businesses are normally run at BH, it's quite frankly up to the individual managements whether to send cash back to BH or not.

The utility companies sometimes decide not to, and the insurance subsidiaries sometimes don't either.

Which leads me to pin the blame on Matt Rose & Carl Ice. They could have said, "We need the cash, we're keeping it."

Was there some fear among Matt Rose and Carl Ice that if they decided not to issue dividends to BH for a few years, the "boss" would be unhappy? I've seen people doing crazy things out of fears which aren't actually accurate.


----------



## montana mike

In real life Mt Buffett is NO "Teddy Bear" as is often seen in his public persona. He didn't get to be one of the richest persons in the world by being nice to everyone-he is a clever, cool, calculating and determined driver of people and companies (often into the ground I might add--the record speaks for itself). My guess is that there was a promise by senior management to start paying BH back (WB paid a fairly high price for the BNSF) as soon as they could and they likely figured they could get away with little or no reinvestment in infrastructure for a few years. If I was WB I would have fired the SOBs for this!

This BNSF SNAFU will be used by business schools for years as an excellent example of how NOT to do things............

Footnote from another source just in as I write this (good timing): I have a very good friend who owns a significant oil field services firm in the Bakken area. He is high enough up in the "food chain" there to be able to share with me that BNSF management was informed of exactly what was going to happen as far as transportation needs and production levels several years ago and he said the BNSF people just blew him and the others in ND off, saying that the energy people were way off the mark and BNSF had plenty of capacity to meet their needs for years. This despite even the state of ND reps at these same meetings pleading with BNSF to listen to the energy people. Bummer.........


----------



## montana mike

#7 will be at least 3 1/2 hours late out of CHI tonight-not a good way to start a 2000 mile trip is it.

:-(


----------



## Nathanael

montana mike said:


> In real life Mt Buffett is NO "Teddy Bear" as is often seen in his public persona. He didn't get to be one of the richest persons in the world by being nice to everyone-he is a clever, cool, calculating and determined driver of people and companies (often into the ground I might add--the record speaks for itself).


Well, that's the thing. The record does speak for itself. He's most certainly a sharp operator. He is no friend to the worker. Even less of a friend to the customer -- he's explicitly stated that his favorite thing to do is to own monopolies and collect monopolistic profits off of them. His big reinsurance companies mostly charge the highest rates out there, and have low payouts -- which he can get away with because when companies need reinsurance, they need it fast and they need it from a company with a huge warchest.
But his companies *haven't* been driven into the ground, and frankly I dare you to find an example of a company which he did drive into the ground. (The few which went under were in doomed industries, mostly.) He is, as he always says, "long term greedy".

Which means that this kind of short-term thinking, underinvesting in infrastructure for a short-term cash juice, isn't his *style*. Empire building is his style.



> My guess is that there was a promise by senior management to start paying BH back (WB paid a fairly high price for the BNSF) as soon as they could and they likely figured they could get away with little or no reinvestment in infrastructure for a few years. If I was WB I would have fired the SOBs for this!


That makes a lot of sense to me. Who knows -- he could still fire them.



> He is high enough up in the "food chain" there to be able to share with me that BNSF management was informed of exactly what was going to happen as far as transportation needs and production levels several years ago and he said the BNSF people just blew him and the others in ND off, saying that the energy people were way off the mark and BNSF had plenty of capacity to meet their needs for years. This despite even the state of ND reps at these same meetings pleading with BNSF to listen to the energy people. Bummer.........


Ugh. OK, I'm definitely blaming BNSF senior management here. Frankly, it sounds like the kind of thinking which has recurred more than once in railroad senior management. Railroads have repeatedly been bought out by short-term-thinking funds who *did* want the management to underinvest. This may have been almost a reflex action by the senior management, not understanding what sort of a boss they'd actually acquired.


----------



## greatcats

Good grief ! Today's #8 due at 3:30 am. 11+ hours late. This calls for a Congressional investigation! Oh phooey. That probably would make matters worse.


----------



## RalphCT

greatcats said:


> Good grief ! Today's #8 due at 3:30 am. 11+ hours late. This calls for a Congressional investigation! Oh phooey. That probably would make matters worse.


The train 8/28 due in CHI on Monday Feb 10 was over 8 hours late in western Montana the day before. So it didn't lose all that much more time from there to CHI. It seems 8 left Seattle and reached Spokane all right but the 28 was 5 hours late leaving Portland. Maybe the big Portland storms and the very late Cascades caused part of the problem.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## CHamilton

If this hasn't already been posted, Amtrak has finally made the delays and detours official.



> Empire Builder Train 7/27 and 8/28: Service Delays and Detours	Effective through February 28, 2014The following changes affecting the Empire Builder service now through February 28, 2014, are shown below:
> 
> Trains 7/27 and 8/28: Severe Delays Along the Route
> Train 7/27 and 8/28 will experience significant delays along the route due to freight train interference. We are working to reduce delays whenever possible and provide our passengers with more reliable service.
> Empire Builder passengers should contact Amtrak before heading to the station for the most up-to-date arrival and departure times. Passengers can obtain train status information and make reservations on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> Train 7/27: Busing to and from Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
> BNSF Railroad requires the Amtrak westbound Empire Builder Train 7/27 to detour between Fargo and Minot, resulting in the train missing the following stops: Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby, ND.
> Passengers on Train 7/27 who are traveling to these cities will detrain at Fargo and be provided bus service to their destination. Westbound passengers who are boarding at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby will be bused to Minot, where they will board Train 7/27.
> This detour is expected to reduce delays caused by severe freight train interference. It is the goal of Amtrak to return to our normal route as soon as possible, in order take care of our passengers getting on and off at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby, ND.


----------



## CHamilton

And a scary comment from someone who is evidently an OBS crew member on the EB, from the Facebook Empire Builder group:



> I just get worried when we work alone (as we have been lately due to short staffing) and some folks have an extra 10 hours to drink... We've had a few incidents lately with some conductors being assaulted, and it concerns me. I can handle complaining, though.


----------



## Ryan

I would imagine that the tolerance for that sort of thing would be pretty much zero and that a conductor working without an assistant would be a little quicker on the trigger to put someone off before things get rough.

Hopefully the OBS staff would lend a hand if needed (and if things really came to it, I could see some of the pax getting involved if it comes to fisticuffs).

Sad situation, though.


----------



## TraneMan

On our trip to CHI last week, the Conductor was solo. The LSA helped him get people on board.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Ispolkom

Commuter trains to Minneapolis canceled today because of a stopped freight train. I imagine it won't affect #8, since train is hours late.


----------



## EB_OBS

RyanS said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also saw this at the SCD station yesterday. It's a start, though I only got a call for my final RDW - SCD segment (even though that was way closer to on-time than any of my eastbound segments.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dates in the fine print at the bottom amuse me.
Click to expand...


All that date at the bottom of the posting means is that the "document" is not "officially" required to posted at crew bases and stations after that date.

Pretty much all updates, advisories and notices have one.

It means that should an "audit" be done by management you are in compliance if you have all the current postings.


----------



## montana mike

And #7 will start its journey from CHI today at least 3 1/2 hours behind as well.


----------



## RalphCT

8/28 through Montana today is leaving Havre only 53 minutes late. I'm enjoying the ride so far. Lunch was very pleasant. But the North Dakota "gauntlet" is still ahead.

Wine tasting in the diner was cancelled today because the diner has no cheese! Not sure about that one. So my SCA is setting up a wine tasting event in our car. Yummy!

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## montana mike

Expect to lose 4+ hours going thru ND


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> Expect to lose 4+ hours going thru ND


Yes, I'm expecting that. But I should sleep better if the train is stopped or going slower. Don't care too much as I've planned the delay into my travel plans. Just so long as I get to MSP by train on Wednesday. 

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## montana mike

If all goes as has gone over the past few weeks you should arrive around noon or a bit before!


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> If all goes as has gone over the past few weeks you should arrive around noon or a bit before!


Yep, that what I've seen. Gives us time for some cross country skiing at Theo Wirth Park in MSP and the a drive to Hayward Wisconsin. 

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## RalphCT

The conductor has been very up front with explanations of the problems that the Empire Builder has been encountering. I appreciate the good communication.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## jebr

I hate to advocate for changing the train schedule, but if BNSF could actually find a time for the train to get into SPUD that it could meet the vast majority of the time, it may be worth setting the departure time from MSP to that time (plus time for servicing.) That way CP has a time that it can put a slot around and hopefully not cause any additional delays by having the train out-of-slot.

Again, it sucks that this even has to be proposed (BNSF should figure out how to run it on time) but sometimes it's worth finding a way to make it later but reliably timed, at least for some markets. Plus, it offers a baseline of what BNSF is expected to keep throughout the rest of the route (keep the arrival time at 7:05 AM or 7:30 with the move to SPUD so that BNSF isn't getting any cut on the timetable, but rather Amtrak is simply gaining a cushion so that it can get on CP lines on-time.) SPUD wouldn't be a horrible place to have a long break at, either.


----------



## Steve Manfred

What is there to stop BNSF from allowing this situation to go on indefinitely or even get worse to the point that Amtrak has to cancel the EB on a regular basis? Anything?


----------



## montana mike

RalphCT said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> If all goes as has gone over the past few weeks you should arrive around noon or a bit before!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that what I've seen. Gives us time for some cross country skiing at Theo Wirth Park in MSP and the a drive to Hayward Wisconsin.
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
Click to expand...

Looks like #8 should arrive in MSP around 11 AM today--just under 4 hours behind--not bad!!!


----------



## Anderson

Steve Manfred said:


> What is there to stop BNSF from allowing this situation to go on indefinitely or even get worse to the point that Amtrak has to cancel the EB on a regular basis? Anything?


At some point, Amtrak would probably end up taking them to court. We're not there...not even _close_...but I could see Amtrak going to court for a breach of contract.


----------



## fairviewroad

7(10) pulled off a neat trick last night of arriving into Minot _exactly_ 12 hours late.

Yep, you can once again set your (analog) watch by the Empire Builder!


----------



## montana mike

fairviewroad said:


> 7(10) pulled off a neat trick last night of arriving into Minot _exactly_ 12 hours late.
> 
> Yep, you can once again set your (analog) watch by the Empire Builder!


It will be close, but the two Empire Builders could conceivably arrive in WFH today about the same time--#8 is several hours late and #7 continues to be verrrrry late. Both cannot be at the station together, so I guess BNSF dispatchers might let the 12+ hour late train in first!!!


----------



## Guest

Unbelievable, number 7 left CHI only 8 minutes late today! And number 8 in Wisconsin is only a little under 3 hours down!


----------



## montana mike

I too saw that. Well, there is a first time for everything. Poor #7 now heading west in ID is almost 13 hours late, so maybe they are just averaging things out!

)


----------



## fairviewroad

montana mike said:


> It will be close, but the two Empire Builders could conceivably arrive in WFH today about the same time--#8 is several hours late and #7 continues to be verrrrry late. Both cannot be at the station together, so I guess BNSF dispatchers might let the 12+ hour late train in first!!!


To follow up on this, #7 was in Whitefish from 9:31 to 9:37 this morning and #8 was in Whitefish from 10:07 to 10:19. Busy hour for the Whitefish

station personnel.


----------



## montana mike

All two of them!!


----------



## JayPea

Guest said:


> Unbelievable, number 7 left CHI only 8 minutes late today! And number 8 in Wisconsin is only a little under 3 hours down!


And yesterday's #7, that departed Chicago 3 hours and 46 minutes late, lost "only" an hour and 12 minutes between Chicago and Stanley. And the SWC departed Chicago *on time* and the CZ only 25 minutes late. Not bad at all considering the mess that Chicago's had lately.


----------



## montana mike

I asked my local BNSF guy about these improvements and he said part of this may be due to a gradual lowering of grain shipment volume over the past week, along with a decrease in new vehicle shipments and slightly slower than expected Intermodal requirements for this week (due partly to the crappy weather on both coasts). He believes this will fluctuate from week to week depending on BNSF and customer needs. He did remind me of the thousands of new tanker cars that will begin delivery commencing at the end of the second quarter of this year as well.


----------



## fairviewroad

I think you can file this under the category of "we'll believe it when we see it."

Still...

*Railroad pledges to improve service, end Amtrak detour*



> BNSF Railway promised Tuesday to provide more locomotives and workers in the next few weeks to break the logjam of rail shipments that has dismayed North Dakota farmers and forced the detour of passenger trains through the state.
> 
> In a meeting with North Dakota’s congressional delegation and agricultural leaders in Washington, BNSF Executive Director Matt Rose said the railroad would invest $5 billion in new resources this year, including $600 million in North Dakota.
> 
> He also agreed to end the detour of westbound of Amtrak passenger trains by Feb. 28. The detours meant the train has not stopped in Grand Forks, Devils Lake or Rugby the past few weeks and passengers have been bused there instead.


----------



## Ryan

Yeah, they pledged to run the train on time when they signed a contract, too.


----------



## montana mike

Well, at least this mess and the attendant media coverage has gotten their attention!


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm from Missouri on this one also, Show Me!  (But at least the Politicians are getting involved even if it is probably because of the Freight Customers being Shorted on Promised Service, Not Amtrak!)


----------



## Texan Eagle

Can someone offer Warren Buffett a ticket for the Empire Builder and drag him to Chicago to actually ride the train into North Dakota? Maybe if he sees what a horrid mess his BSNF has created, some of his philanthropic side may feel sorry for the local residents left without any transit options?


----------



## RalphCT

I'm kind of late with this post. My empire builder arrived in MSP less than 3 hours late. Compared to recent runs that time was good. My car attendant and the dining car staff were very pleasant all making for a very pleasant trip.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## montana mike

Glad you arrived the same day of scheduled arrival. It is sad when we rejoice at a 3 hour "late" arrival. Oh, well.

I will concur with you that on my last two long delayed EB runs so far this winter the crew members were all as pleasant as possible throughout the trip (I even had a chance to speak with one of the engineers as he got on the train in WFH and he projected the same positive attitude). As my attendant said there was nothing they could do about the mess, so they might as well try to make the best of a bad situation. Bravo to the folks in the trenches.

PS-I looks like today's arrival in CHI will be less than 4 hours late as well--whoo, whoo.


----------



## greatcats

On my trip from Seattle to Chicago in October, we arrived at 10pm, over six hours late. This wasn't great but I had raved about the dining car crew under Timmy. As we neared Chicago I said to them jokingly, " Now you can go out carousing. " The reply:
" We have to be back on here at 9am. We're not that type anyway! "


----------



## Groundpounder

Boy....I always had a fantasy of travelling coast to coast on Amtrak....reading these horror stories really kills that fantasy!


----------



## greatcats

Oh, just go do it, but do not be in a hurry. Avoid making commitments such as reserved concert tickets the day of arrival, especially Chicago. Go with the fllow and sit back and appreciate this great country!


----------



## Guest

Any idea what's happening to 7 (12) today on the Surrey cutoff? It left Fargo only 17 minutes late but still has not made it to Minot. According to the amtrak tracker map it has been stopped quite a bit and still closer to Fargo than Minot.


----------



## fairviewroad

Texan Eagle said:


> Can someone offer Warren Buffett a ticket for the Empire Builder and drag him to Chicago to actually ride the train into North Dakota? Maybe if he sees what a horrid mess his BSNF has created, some of his philanthropic side may feel sorry for the local residents left without any transit options?


Just as long as he travels incognito. If dispatch gets word that he's aboard, then it's nothing but clear running all the way to Seattle! ^_^


----------



## montana mike

LOL


----------



## Texan Eagle

fairviewroad said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone offer Warren Buffett a ticket for the Empire Builder and drag him to Chicago to actually ride the train into North Dakota? Maybe if he sees what a horrid mess his BSNF has created, some of his philanthropic side may feel sorry for the local residents left without any transit options?
> 
> 
> 
> Just as long as he travels incognito. If dispatch gets word that he's aboard, then it's nothing but clear running all the way to Seattle! ^_^
Click to expand...

Well that works too. In that case, attach a PV at the end of one EB trainset and move Mr Buffett's office and bedroom there permanently. At least one in 4 (or 1 in 5, I forgot how many EB trainsets are there) EB will run on schedule, a big improvement from what is currently going on


----------



## fairviewroad

Better yet, invest in five PV's and attach them to the end of ALL the Builders. Kind of like how the Secret Service

sometimes has a decoy limo in the presidential motorcade. Only his hairdresser will know for sure whether

Mr. Buffet's on board.


----------



## EB_OBS

Guest said:


> Any idea what's happening to 7 (12) today on the Surrey cutoff? It left Fargo only 17 minutes late but still has not made it to Minot. According to the amtrak tracker map it has been stopped quite a bit and still closer to Fargo than Minot.


Switch failure.


----------



## montana mike

It is now well over 8 hours behind-arrrrgh. And #7 left CHI over 3 hours behind. The Empire Builders just cannot catch a break at all.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

Update on BNSF capital spending in 2014. Most have heard or seen the news reports that BNSF will spend $900 million on the Hi-Line this year. A partial breakdown on where this $$ will be spent was shared with me. Of course most of the effort will be concentrated in eastern MT and most of ND, but not to build extra trackage. My BNSF contacts say a lot of upgrades to existing tracks, track beds, switches and sidings and repairs are needed--after about three years of "very light maintenance" (read neglect). He said internal BNSF memos already are indicating that the summer slow downs and traffic issues may rival some of the delays seen this winter, but hopefully not on a daily basis like we see now. The only saving grace would be fewer grain shipments thru the summer months, but as my BNSF guy pointed out the additional tanker cars are scheduled to begin arriving late second quarter, so their increased numbers will probably just offset any decrease in grain cars.

He said personally he would expect if everything went "well" the EB's will likely average 4-5 hour delays BOTH ways this summer, with perhaps slightly better time on weekends (freight traffic is slightly less on the weekends) and a slightly worse average Mon thru Fri. He said the project "slow orders" charts he has seen cover over 800 miles of hi-line trackage over the course of the summer (not all at once fortunately, but it gives one an appreciation for the scope of what will be going on). Lastly, he reminded me this is a multi-year project. No quick fix.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

So we need to file a complain to the STB and force BNSF to add track? Or should we try and break up the marriage of BNSF and BH.

Last year 2 hour delay, this year 4 hours, next year 6 ???

Going the wrong way.


----------



## CHamilton

Train 8(20) left Seattle on time, but it may be headed for some delays. According to a knowledgeable source, "due to extreme snow, BNSF is annulling trains over Stevens Pass for several hours. Snow is falling at 3-7" per hour. No ETA of reopening."

The traffic camera at Stevens Pass summit is definitely showing lots of snow.


----------



## CHamilton

Sounds like BNSF freight traffic is moving again through Stevens Pass, although some was rerouted through Stampede Pass. Train 8 got through the Cascade Tunnel, and looks to be approaching Leavenworth.


----------



## CHamilton

Train 8(20) sat outside Leavenworth for a couple of hours, and got to Wenatchee just over four hours late. Not arrived in Spokane yet.


----------



## fairviewroad

In a rare bit of good news, 7 arrived in SEA just 21 minutes late today, and 27 didn't do much worse, arriving in PDX 67 minutes late.

However, that's not likely to repeat itself anytime soon, based on the positions of the Builders currently on the loose.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> Steve Manfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is there to stop BNSF from allowing this situation to go on indefinitely or even get worse to the point that Amtrak has to cancel the EB on a regular basis? Anything?
> 
> 
> 
> At some point, Amtrak would probably end up taking them to court. We're not there...not even _close_...but I could see Amtrak going to court for a breach of contract.
Click to expand...

If several months of this nonsense isn't even close then I guess we're talking years from now?


----------



## Tumbleweed

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Manfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is there to stop BNSF from allowing this situation to go on indefinitely or even get worse to the point that Amtrak has to cancel the EB on a regular basis? Anything?
> 
> 
> 
> At some point, Amtrak would probably end up taking them to court. We're not there...not even _close_...but I could see Amtrak going to court for a breach of contract.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If several months of this nonsense isn't even close then I guess we're talking years from now?
Click to expand...

If BNSF is paying penalties for delaying them, AMTRAK probably wouldn't have much luck with a lawsuit as long as BNSF is fulfilling the contract by paying the penalties...


----------



## George Harris

The on-line delays may belong to BNSF, but for getting the train out on time, Amtrak needs to look in the mirror to find the culprit. If it means getting their hands on an additional trainset and getting extra crews, again, that is their business, not that of BNSF. They can hardly claim by now that the weather and high volume of trains on the line are catching them by surprise.

If BNSF can show they are making a reasonable effort to provide for the train, a lawsuit would simply be a waste of time and money. Knowing what I see of them running up and down the Central Valley, I would expect they can show they are doing that, and more likely show that they are going the second mile to try to make it run right.


----------



## Ispolkom

George Harris said:


> If BNSF can show they are making a reasonable effort to provide for the train, a lawsuit would simply be a waste of time and money. Knowing what I see of them running up and down the Central Valley, I would expect they can show they are doing that, and more likely show that they are going the second mile to try to make it run right.


That's my thought. It isn't as though BNSF hot shot freights are blasting through on time, and Amtrak is left in a siding. I'd be surprised if BNSF can't show that they are making a good faith effort, and that all traffic is delayed. Not that I know what the terms of the contract are, of course.

WRT not spending more money earlier, I'd say that BNSF had reason to be skeptical of Baaken oil loads. Shippers apparently weren't willing to put their money where their claims of loads were. In this article, we find that "Two other North Dakota pipeline projects have fallen apart because shippers wouldn’t commit." Sure, they were telling BNSF that the loads would be there, but not willing to pony up money.

Not that this makes it any more pleasant to be late into Minot to visit my ailing mother, of course.


----------



## Nathanael

Devil's Advocate said:


> If several months of this nonsense isn't even close then I guess we're talking years from now?


How long did it take before Amtrak went after CN, which was pulling blatant and obvious stunts to disadvantage Amtrak, including passing slow same-direction bulk freights in front of Amtrak while putting Amtrak in a siding? I think it was about 10 years before Amtrak filed complaints?

Before that, how long did it take Amtrak to go after UP for similar stunts? Definitely years.

BNSF seems to be making much more of an effort than in either of those cases.


----------



## tim49424

Looks like both #7 and #8 have had service disruptions declared out west....what happened?


----------



## RalphCT

Today's 7 (2/23) arrived in Minot about 2-3 hours late and left almost 6 1/2 hours late according to Amtrak.

8 arrived late in Havre and as of now there's no departure info.

Both trains show service disruption. Not sure what happened.

I'm presently in Columbus 2/23) waiting for 7 which arrived in MKE early.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## tim49424

RalphCT said:


> I'm presently in Columbus 2/23) waiting for 7 which arrived in MKE early.


Looks like you guys are doing pretty well....a rare on-time departure from CHI. Good luck the rest of the way!


----------



## tim49424

tim54449 said:


> Looks like both #7 and #8 have had service disruptions declared out west....what happened?


Just found out, a BNSF derailment in Montana.


----------



## RalphCT

10 cars of a BBSF train derailed near Saco Montana. No injuries. Not sure how long the line will be impacted.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## RalphCT

KRTV in Great Falls, MT reports the train derailed at 8:45 Sunday morning and was carrying autos. No word on the cause or how long the cleanup will take.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## yarrow

is what seem to be quite a few derailments on the hi-line lately a function of increased traffic, deteriorating infrastructure or is it not actually greater than usual?


----------



## Nathanael

yarrow said:


> is what seem to be quite a few derailments on the hi-line lately a function of increased traffic, deteriorating infrastructure or is it not actually greater than usual?


By all accounts, some increased traffic and some deteriorating infrastructure; the rate really is somewhat greater than usual. Apparently BNSF has been a little light on maintenance in the last couple of years, and the unusually severe weather deteriorates the infrastructure faster than normal, and there's been vastly increased traffic which also wears out the infrastructure faster. Derailments cost a lot of money and a lot of reputation, so you can expect BNSF will try to address the deterioration ASAP, though it's hard to do very much until the ground melts out.


----------



## anir dendroica

Nathanael said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> is what seem to be quite a few derailments on the hi-line lately a function of increased traffic, deteriorating infrastructure or is it not actually greater than usual?
> 
> 
> 
> By all accounts, some increased traffic and some deteriorating infrastructure; the rate really is somewhat greater than usual. Apparently BNSF has been a little light on maintenance in the last couple of years, and the unusually severe weather deteriorates the infrastructure faster than normal, and there's been vastly increased traffic which also wears out the infrastructure faster. Derailments cost a lot of money and a lot of reputation, so you can expect BNSF will try to address the deterioration ASAP, though it's hard to do very much until the ground melts out.
Click to expand...

BNSF has been very heavy on maintenance in Montana for the last two summers at least; hence all of the summer delays. They may have been neglecting maintenance prior to that point, as they are still playing catch-up to some degree.


----------



## montana mike

Never a dull moment on the Hi-Line! I may be wrong, but I don't think that specific area has been "improved" lately. Most of the work has been done further to the east. The trackage around Malta, MT is still a wee bit on the bumpy side. But in either case I think it is indeed an all of the above situation-very cold temps and more traffic, which means more maintenance is needed and the likelihood of a derailment naturally goes up.


----------



## mkeroad

I have a ticket for the whole run in a couple weeks. Am I wrong to think if the percentage of freight derailments is way up that it's only a matter of time before a passenger train hurts a lot of people

What are the consequences for such an event?

Just the thought of being in coach for 16 extra hours and having my wife drive an hour at 4am instead of at 1pm to pick me up is enough to take a different route


----------



## montana mike

Overall rail travel is still safer than driving. The derailments are a concern, but can be greatly minimized by proper maintenance and due diligence by both Amtrak and BNSF. The delays are caused by many things. This week is a mess partly due to the latest derailment (although BNSF was able to quickly fix that one), both Empire Builders that were effected were well over 12 hours late at their final destinations. The long term, chronic delays are indeed being caused by too much traffic trying to fit into not enough trackage. That is not going to disappear soon. It should get a a little better as winter releases its grip on the Hi-Line (thus eliminating all of the ills that are caused by the bitterly cold temps and snow), but then construction and flood season starts, which add more challenges to the mix.

The trip on the EB's is a special one, seeing a beautiful and special part of America from ground level instead of 35,000 feet. Hopefully, someday it will become more reliable and thus more enjoyable. I would just try to build into your personal schedule some extra time for whatever connections you may need.


----------



## mkeroad

MT, I've decided to do just that. It would be a mess to change my plans now because this is on a rail pass and I have all the big segments already. I've always wanted to take the EB and you have talked me back into it. I am retired and maybe my wife will miss me enough to take the drive whenever?


----------



## andersone

The EB has a special place in my hear, one of the reasons I relish the opportunity to ride it to Glacier this summer after a long hiatus. There is something about the Mighty M then all that flat,,, then the stark beauty of the Rockies but I shall miss the leg to the coast. . Somebody had a grand plan when they laid all of this out for us to enjoy.

I have found, at least here, She Who Must Be Obeyed is often assuaged by a good meal and a well meant peck on the cheek.


----------



## RRUserious

Saw an interesting comment in the news. It was about the Keystone pipeline, the "solution" to Empire Builder miseries. They pointed out that recent years have been rather mild for hurricanes. I was thinking "Yeh, they'll complete the Keystone, oil will flow to the gulf, and then monster hurricanes will idle the ports and refineries. Climate change, it's all about ADVENTURE". :giggle:


----------



## montana mike

Whoever wrote that article is not familiar with the big picture. While the pipeline might help lessen the severity of the current mess, it is so much more than just the additional tanker cars. The Hi-Line has been the "poor step-child" of BNSF for years now. All of the BNSF employees I have spoken to in the past 5 years here in MT say the same thing-BNSF has been pushing and pushing more and more freight onto the system and not expanded the necessary infrastructure to properly handle the increases. I am not privy to internal correspondence, but it has been shared with me that the "railroad" people had alerted the corporate "suits" of this need at least three or four years ago to no avail. Now they are paying the price for their lack of good management and vision. Just observing the big increases in intermodal, coal, grain, vehicle and general freight going thru Whitefish is something to behold.

A footnote to the refineries in the Gulf region. I have spent time in both LA and TX and at some of these refineries over the past 10 years. Most are really not on or close to the actual Gulf of Mexico (anywhere from 10 to 50 miles inland). In low areas to be sure and flooding is always a possibility, but they were built to withstand major flooding (and still operate btw) and the cracking towers supposedly can withstand 150 mph winds, so it is more of a shipping issue than one with the refineries.


----------



## RRUserious

Well, let me cncede this. If the BNSF loses the gold mine of oil traffic, that hardly makes it more likely to renew its rail system. And since that is what determines what EB can do, Keystone isn't going to perform a miracle for EB. So long as we don't have any rails in that area purely for passengers, I'm afraid the foreseeable future is not good for Amtrak. And given the amazing resistance to even fixing our highways and bridges, how in the world will Amtrak get any love?


----------



## montana mike

One entity is a railroad, privately held and run. The other is our "government". Which one would you rather see running the show? I need not say more.

I agree with RRU, any improvements for the EB's will be purely because BNSF MUST make things better for their freight customers. btw-I saw images and specs of the first 5000 new tanker cars BNSF will be taking delivery of this spring. A major step up in the safety and durability. Glad to see this.

:-(


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> One entity is a railroad, privately held and run. The other is our "government". Which one would you rather see running the show?


One is dedicated to making as much money for Warren Buffet as possible.

The other is supposedly for the benefit of all US citizens.

I know which way I would vote.


----------



## RRUserious

I'd lke to see separate shows. In most part of the country, private companies have no INTEREST in passenger traffic. So its not as if there's a choice. Oh, I think you could get a few short runs cherrypicked, with the result of what's left being even more heavily-subsidized. I'd just like to see the trains running on tracks not battered by freight traffic that doesn't require a smooth ride.


----------



## EB_OBS

Just my observation but, the broken rails have been much more frequent lately than derailments.


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> btw-I saw images and specs of the first 5000 new tanker cars BNSF will be *taking delivery of* this spring. A major step up in the safety and durability. Glad to see this.
> 
> :-(


BNSF owns tanker cars?


----------



## montana mike

RyanS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> One entity is a railroad, privately held and run. The other is our "government". Which one would you rather see running the show?
> 
> 
> 
> One is dedicated to making as much money for Warren Buffet as possible.
> 
> The other is supposedly for the benefit of all US citizens.
> 
> I know which way I would vote.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, one has the efficiency of the USPS and the customer service of the IRS and the other actually really does something productive.....

LOL


----------



## montana mike

Ispolkom said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> btw-I saw images and specs of the first 5000 new tanker cars BNSF will be *taking delivery of* this spring. A major step up in the safety and durability. Glad to see this.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF owns tanker cars?
Click to expand...

Yes, and they are buying more. There are many leased cars, but BNSF is also buying thousands as well. Double walls, overlapping welds with a high grade of steel that resists punctures. Heavier than many of the current models, but exceeding the latest govt safety standards (which many of their "grandfathered" cars fail to meet btw)


----------



## CHamilton

There is a link to the news about BNSF buying tanker cars here.


----------



## montana mike

Looking at all of the very late Empire Builders today the weather and freight traffic appear to be really taking their toll on the schedule. #8 in ND is almost 10 hours behind. Yesterday's EB was about that late in CHI and the day before the EB was 14 hours late--ouch.....


----------



## fairviewroad

Northstar, Amtrak delays prompt legislative hearing Thursday

Minnesota state lawmakers are holding a hearing. I know, what good will a single hearing do? But at the very least

it's on their radar.


----------



## montana mike

The statement by the BNSF spokesperson is a joke: "it will take a few days to resolve the congestion". What planet is that person from??? The freight issue is systemwide from Washington state all the way into Wisconsin and will take years to resolve, not hours or days. Arrrrrrgh.


----------



## RRUserious

The local Fox channel did a special report on oil tankers that cross the Twin Cities. They said a derailment in Wayzata could take out a main part of downtown, could even wipe out the police and fire departments. They also said that one railroad actually got approval to DOUBLE their speed in the urban part of the metro. Smart. One guy had his office within sight of the BNSF tracks and said he saw maintenance out there working constantly on the tracks.

Random question. No way to engineer fire suppression into the trains? Yeh, I know its an expense, but so is explosions. In Formula 1, they re-engineered fuel tanks decades ago to make fire less of a danger.


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> One entity is a railroad, privately held and run. The other is our "government". Which one would you rather see running the show?
> 
> 
> 
> One is dedicated to making as much money for Warren Buffet as possible.
> 
> The other is supposedly for the benefit of all US citizens.
> 
> I know which way I would vote.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah yes, one has the efficiency of the USPS and the customer service of the IRS and the other actually really does something productive.....LOL
Click to expand...

This tangent certainly is out of scope for this thread (and would probably quickly run afoul of the "no politics" dictum), but government done poorly shouldn't mean that we just throw in the towel and throw our lot in with those whose mission it is in life to separate you and I from as much of our hard-earned money as possible in order to personally enrich themselves.

Instead, let's push for government to do things right and do their jobs for the sake of everyone. You know that whole "by the people, for the people" thing? I'm much more inclined to support that than "by Warren Buffet, for Warren Buffet", but maybe I'm just crazy like that.


----------



## montana mike

You are too much of an idealist. )))

I deal with the federal government on a daily basis with my business and their incredible lack of responsiveness and understanding of the "real world" is why we are talking about this. They are not beholden to anyone anymore and they let me and others know this on a regular basis when we work with them. When was the last time any federal bureaucrat was held fully accountable for their action or inaction and fired? And this comment is meant to cross the aisle.

I agree with you that it would be nice if we had such accountability, but sadly we don't. While my tongue was firmly in my cheek with the examples I gave about the USPS' great "efficiency" and the IRS' "customer service," these were real life examples of how our "government" no longer serves the people, but rather how we are under their thumbs.

The EB mess is mostly a BNSF SNAFU and they should be held accountable for this by all of us-especially including their freight customers, since it is costing them huge amounts of money in delays. Hopefully the long term problem will be resolved when BNSF really understands the magnitude of their own incompetence and lack of vision.


----------



## Guest

So according to the Amtrak service alert the detours of train 7/27 from Fargo to Minot will end tomorrow (Feb. 28). I wonder how train 7 will do on the regular route through Grand Forks, it actually seems to have slightly better running times on the surrey cutoff.


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> btw-I saw images and specs of the first 5000 new tanker cars BNSF will be *taking delivery of* this spring. A major step up in the safety and durability. Glad to see this.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF owns tanker cars?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and they are buying more. There are many leased cars, but BNSF is also buying thousands as well. Double walls, overlapping welds with a high grade of steel that resists punctures. Heavier than many of the current models, but exceeding the latest govt safety standards (which many of their "grandfathered" cars fail to meet btw)
Click to expand...

Ignorance fought! If they are buying reinforced tanker cars, no wonder they advocate the elimination of competing, unreinforced cars. Greater safety, greater leasing profits. Works out great for everyone except the leasing companies that own older tanker cars, and shippers who have to pay higher rents to lease BNSF's improved tanker cars.


----------



## Karl1459

RRUserious said:


> The local Fox channel did a special report on oil tankers that cross the Twin Cities. They said a derailment in Wayzata could take out a main part of downtown, could even wipe out the police and fire departments. They also said that one railroad actually got approval to DOUBLE their speed in the urban part of the metro. Smart. One guy had his office within sight of the BNSF tracks and said he saw maintenance out there working constantly on the tracks.
> 
> Random question. No way to engineer fire suppression into the trains? Yeh, I know its an expense, but so is explosions. In Formula 1, they re-engineered fuel tanks decades ago to make fire less of a danger.


Fire supression in trains? Beyond a handheld extinguisher which may or may not be effective for an incipiant fire this is not practical from several standpoints. First understand the primary strategy is prevention. Safe tracks, safe equipment and safe operating rules.

When prevention fails you have a catastrophic event. There are too many variables to engineer a system that might be effective for all or even most catastrophic events, Its far more cost and safety effective to engineer prevention for an event that can be envisioned as predictable enough for effective supression. The second is containment. This is where the new double wall tank cars come in, preventing or slowing release of product in the event of a derailment and damage to the container.

Even then the scope of a ruptured car with a significant amount of product spilled and on fire is well beyond the capabilities of even major urban fire departments to extinguish. Even if you wanted to extinguish the fire you have the problems of cleaning up the resulting spill. Allowing the spill to burn off is often the prefered option even if the fire could be supressed as the costs and damages from water/supression foam contaminated product would be greater than fire damage.

Are there improvements needed. Sure. The need to be made and will be made on the prevention side.


----------



## fairviewroad

Guest said:


> So according to the Amtrak service alert the detours of train 7/27 from Fargo to Minot will end tomorrow (Feb. 28).


I wouldn't count on it. That date seems to be based on a promise made by BNSF, which for reasons that are painfully obvious, should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

That said, Amtrak.com is selling that segment as a bus for March 1, but starting March 2nd it's a train again. So perhaps Amtrak has reason to feel confident that 7/27 will be back on its regular route starting March 2nd.


----------



## Ispolkom

fairviewroad said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> So according to the Amtrak service alert the detours of train 7/27 from Fargo to Minot will end tomorrow (Feb. 28).
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't count on it. That date seems to be based on a promise made by BNSF, which for reasons that are painfully obvious, should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
> 
> That said, Amtrak.com is selling that segment as a bus for March 1, but starting March 2nd it's a train again. So perhaps Amtrak has reason to feel confident that 7/27 will be back on its regular route starting March 2nd.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I bought tickets last week to travel MSP-MOT at Easter, and was warned of the directional running for April 17-19.


----------



## Tumbleweed

For what it is worth, and that's probably not much, the Conductor on 7 a few weeks ago stated to me there is talk of establishing a stop at New Rockford....perhaps there is also consideration being given to running both 7 & 8 via that route, given the traffic and maintenance taking place on the high line....


----------



## tim49424

Tumbleweed said:


> the Conductor on 7 a few weeks ago stated to me there is talk of establishing a stop at New Rockford....perhaps there is also consideration being given to running both 7 & 8 via that route, given the traffic and maintenance taking place on the high line....


I'm wondering if this would be instead of, or in addition to, the talk of establishing a stop at Culbertson that was discussed on AU back in December. I can't remember which thread it was on so I found the article that was quoted.

http://www.krtv.com/news/culbertson-working-with-amtrak-for-empire-builder-stop/


----------



## Ispolkom

Guest said:


> So according to the Amtrak service alert the detours of train 7/27 from Fargo to Minot will end tomorrow (Feb. 28). I wonder how train 7 will do on the regular route through Grand Forks, it actually seems to have slightly better running times on the surrey cutoff.



"Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said Monday that he’s sure the notice that expires Saturday will be immediately replaced with another one." Article here

When BNSF was claiming that it wanted to abandon the Devils Lake subdivision, there was talk about a station at New Rockford, but I haven't heard anything since then.


----------



## montana mike

As this thread suggests---the EB Mess.............I note three of the EB's solidly behind by over 5 hours today again. Anyone contemplating traveling this route for the foreseeable future must understand they should expect at least a 4 hour delay in arriving at many destinations (especially after the EBs have run thru MT and ND) and there will be days where the EB pulls into CHI twice that late. Just the nature of the beast now.


----------



## fairviewroad

Ispolkom said:


> "Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said Monday that he’s sure the notice that expires Saturday will be immediately replaced with another one." Article here


To the extent that delays along the EB route will surely continue into the foreseeable future, then extending the advisory is logical. But

an advisory about delays does not necessarily equate to an advisory about directional running. Amtrak's issued an EB advisory in the

past when directional running was not in place. The directional running is really just a small part of the whole EB mess.

One bit of good news: When the directional running started, Amtrak pulled all ticket sales on 7/27 to/from Grand Forks, Devils Lake

and Rugby. The bus was only available to previously ticketed passengers, effectively making round-trip travel impossible to those

three communities. More recently, however, Amtrak has added back the option to buy tickets to/from those three cities on 7/27. It

shows up as Thruway bus 1007.


----------



## Tumbleweed

Hmmmm....if a scheduled thruway bus is established, that may be an indicator that there actually is some consideration for a routing thru New Rockford for both 7 & 8....


----------



## RRUserious

I'm always a big supporter of prevention. If it can be effective, it can be very very cheap compared to the alternatives. But what are the parameters of effectiveness. It seems a little bit like pie in the sky. A matter of "look, we're doing something". No promises at all are implied.


----------



## CHamilton

Once train 7 makes its way west past Spokane and Wenatchee, barriers remain...



> Stevens Pass: 13+ feet of snow in February-- 2nd snowiest in 50 years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo courtesy: Stevens Pass Ski ResortLEAVENWORTH, Wash. -- ...Stevens Pass ski resort... said Thursday that so far this month, they have received 160 inches of snow -- over 13 feet! -- making it the second snowiest February in the last 50 years up there. It's been only upstaged by the epic winter of 1998-99 that had 226 inches at Stevens Pass in February and overall set the world record for seasonal snow at Mt. Baker.
> 
> The resort said more than 10 feet of that snow fell over an 11 day period from Feb. 10-21, doubling the base depth from 61 inches to 129 inches. As of Thursday, the base sits at 145 inches at the top and 124 inches at the base.
> Stevens Pass has now had 342 inches of snow for the entire winter with six or so weeks left in mountain snow season. The annual average is 450 inches and they've averaged 118 inches in March over the past 5 years. ...
> And there is more snow on the way. Forecasts show about 24-30" of additional total snow will fall around that part of the Cascades at times through Friday.


----------



## RRUserious

You ever see the machines that clear snow in mountain passes. I saw it in a documentary for a highway, THE main highway, that goes through the Sierra Nevada. When they are doin it, the walls of snow are something like 20 feet high!!! Made my little snow clearing job seem pretty puny.


----------



## montana mike

The good news for the EB's is that they go under Stevens Pass! Still a good deal of snow to clear at somewhat lower elevations though.


----------



## andersone

I realize this is concerns the CZ but one of the best rides I have ever had in my life was over Donner Pass in early Feb. There was fifteen feet of snow on either side,,, and you would come out of the snow shes into solid walls of snow,,,,, one can understand why there was a such a tragedy up there in 1846-47. You may see pictures of those rotary snow eaters, but when you pass for real the scale blows you away. We didn't go over the top but took the tunnel, but I can only imagine what it was like up there.


----------



## Ispolkom

According to a BNSF lobbyist, It's the cold weather delaying Northstar commuter trains on the Hi Line, not excess freight trains.

Does he think we've already forgot about this day, when trains were delayed and canceled because of, to quote a BNSF spokesman, "freight backups."

ETA: Clever that he says the problem isn't oil trains. No, it's traffic as a whole.


----------



## fairviewroad

New Service Alert dated March 1st. Mostly repeats the stuff about BNSF-caused delays. However, the "nut graph" is this:



> BNSF will allow the Empire Builder to travel on its regular route in both directions in North Dakota, restoring normal service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby. This eliminates the practice of detouring the westbound Empire Builder and requiring some Amtrak passengers to transfer to and from chartered buses.


You can read the full Service Alert here:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251625641114


----------



## montana mike

Translated: The delays caused in that zone will be shared with BOTH east and westbound Empire Builders after 3-1!! Glad to see the stations restored, but my BNSF guy says this was purely a "political decision" made to appease the people in ND and the 4-5 hour delays currently being experienced thru that area will continue.

:-(


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> Translated: The delays caused in that zone will be shared with BOTH east and westbound Empire Builders after 3-1!!



Further translated: The more things change the more they stay the same.


----------



## yarrow

we were on 28 out of pdx to spk last night. shortly after bingen the conductor announced a bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh. our train would be held at spk(our destination anyway)for an estimated 24 hours.


----------



## tim49424

yarrow said:


> bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh.


That would explain the service disruption for 7 and 8 out west.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

yarrow said:


> we were on 28 out of pdx to spk last night. shortly after bingen the conductor announced a bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh. our train would be held at spk(our destination anyway)for an estimated 24 hours.


What does Amtrak do with a "held train"? I assume that the people currently onboard experience bustitutions, but what happens to the next day's departing trains? I guess I just don't understand the difference between a held train and a cancellation.


----------



## greatcats

Gosh, this us just getting better and better all the time! Gasp!


----------



## Texan Eagle

yarrow said:


> we were on 28 out of pdx to spk last night. shortly after bingen the conductor announced a bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh. our train would be held at spk(our destination anyway)for an estimated 24 hours.


Amtrak should by now start running a counter on their site *Days Since Last BNSF Derailment Delaying Empire Builder* and reset it to *0* with every new derailment. With the way things are going since the last few months, it won't cross 10 I bet.


----------



## yarrow

D.P. Roberts said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> we were on 28 out of pdx to spk last night. shortly after bingen the conductor announced a bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh. our train would be held at spk(our destination anyway)for an estimated 24 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> What does Amtrak do with a "held train"? I assume that the people currently onboard experience bustitutions, but what happens to the next day's departing trains? I guess I just don't understand the difference between a held train and a cancellation.
Click to expand...

in this case, we were told there was also a highway closure secondary to the derailment so bustitution wasn't possible at least until the road reopened. i would guess they would turn both trains, ours in spk and i assume 7/27 in wfh and bus bridge between. but as of last night it was not known what would happen (would the trains continue after waiting for the derailment to be cleared, would they be turned where they were or some other option) so they were held(paused) pending development of the situation. they have the spare trainset for the departure of 8/28 in sea/pdx today and the set that arrived in chi yesterday for today's 7/27


----------



## CHamilton

AP story. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Derailment-sends-45-empty-coal-cars-off-tracks-5282450.php



> Derailment sends 45 empty coal cars off tracks
> 
> OLNEY, Mont. (AP) — A BNSF Railway train derailment in western Montana sent 45 empty coal cars off the tracks and closed a portion of U.S. Highway 93 near the town of Olney....
> 
> Jones says crews are working to clear the tracks and expect the road and tracks to be open by Sunday evening.
> 
> Amtrak's Empire Builder travels on those tracks. Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari says trains will be held in Spokane, Wash., and Whitefish until the tracks are cleared.


----------



## amtrakp42

Those who live in Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin need to contact your US Senators and have them confir with Sen Durbin of IL to inquire how he proceeded to convince CN not to run freights in front of Amtrak City of New Orleans. 2 rumors although unconfirmed true were that it was noted that the Federal Railroad regulators might start stopping CN freights for safety checks (which would tie up freight traffic something terrible) and that one dispatcher was terminated due to being the one most envolved in freights running in front of Amtrak on purpose. Another rumor is that tank car freight from oil fields are much longer than the sidings, therefore can not pull over till a longer siding is reached keeping Amtrak setting for hours.Well wouldn't running freights longer than several of their sidings be a safety concern? After all the Feds just made railroads confirm the actual hazard in each tank car (another saftety concern) which I assume they would have to test contents of every car to protect their liability. Sounds like the railroads will have to hire much more help to keep tankers rolling.


----------



## RRUserious

yarrow said:


> we were on 28 out of pdx to spk last night. shortly after bingen the conductor announced a bnsf derailment 20 miles west of wfh. our train would be held at spk(our destination anyway)for an estimated 24 hours.


Gee, if that happened to me, I could spend the time visiting all the locations of my early childhood, where I was born, where I went to kindergarten, etc. etc. So it'll never happen, of course.


----------



## CHamilton

And...as of about 11:30 pm PT Sun. 3/2:



> Just heard BNSF had an avalanche about 10 miles east of Essex. The about 14 hr late 8 (because of the derailment west of Whitefish) just arrived Essex. A 3 hr or so late 7 is at Browning.


----------



## RalphCT

From krtv news in Great Falls:

Overnight avalanche causes train delay in Shelby

GREAT FALLS -- An overnight avalanche near Glacier National Park, between Browning and Whitefish, is causing a Seattle-bound Amtrak Empire Builder train to experience a delay in Shelby.

According to Matt Jones of BNSF, the avalanche caused snow to cover tracks and possibly some roads in the area.

Jones also mentioned that traffic is delayed in the Shelby area.

No equipment or people were caught in the avalanche, according to BNSF.

One viewer, who wants to remain anonymous, tells us that the Amtrak train, carrying over 100 passengers, was in Browning when it came to a "skidding stop" at around 11 p.m. on Sunday.

Around 4 a.m. Monday, a freight train arrived to assist in the process of backing up the stuck train to a Shelby location.

BNSF is in the process of relocating passengers on buses to take them to Whitefish. However, viewers say they remain concerned since they do not know when that bus will arrive due to "treacherous road conditions."

A man who gave his name as Timothy tells KRTV, "People on the train have their hands behind their back. They're working on that whole 12 hour rule - they can only work 12 hours. Even the conductors don't know what's going on. Seems like there is not much organization when it comes to emergencies like this."

UPDATE, 8:30 a.m.: A viewer reports that around 8:30 a.m. Monday, train staff announced the bus to Whitefish, for the train transfer, is four hours away from Shelby. Passengers remain concerned about the road conditions to and from Whitefish.

We will update as we get more information.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## CHamilton

The link to the above news story is here: http://www.krtv.com/news/overnight-avalanche-causes-train-delay-in-shelby/


----------



## Ryan

Links, excerpts and quote tags are your friend.


----------



## CHamilton

Via the Yahoo Empire Builder group, as of 10am Monday 3/3.




> Like the moratorium for mudslides in Washington State, BNSF has issued a 48-hour moratorium for passenger trains due an avalanche along the southern boundary of Glacier National Park.
> 
> Train 7-1 was held at Browning when the avalanche was discovered. The train was towed back east to Shelby.
> 
> Train 8-1 (also delayed due to the Olney derailment) was at Essex when the avalanche was discovered; train returned to Whitefish.
> 
> ***
> Passengers off train 7-1 are being bused Shelby to Whitefish and will board the equipment off train 8-1 which will become train 7-1 west of Whitefish.
> 
> Train 8-2 will operate as far as Whitefish and the passengers off train 8-1 and 8-2 are being bused Whitefish to Shelby and will board the equipment off train 7-1 which will become train 8-2 through to Chicago.
> 
> Train 7-2 will operate as far as Shelby and passengers will be bused to Whitefish using the equipment off train 8-2 west of Whitefish. Train 8-3 will operate as far as Whitefish and passengers bused to Shelby using the equipment off train 7-2 east of Shelby.
> 
> Trains 7-3/27-3 will operate Chicago to St. Paul and Whitefish-Seattle/Portland only.
> 
> Trains 8-3/28-3 will operate Seattle/Portland to Whitefish only with equipment protecting 7-3/27-3 west from Whitefish.


----------



## guest

Are trains 8/7 running today out of SEA and CHI? I see that the trains are listed as "sold out".


----------



## greatcats

Probably not 8. They only ran a stub to MSP yesterday from CHI.


----------



## RalphCT

When an avalanche blocks the tracks Amtrak does not run through that area for at least 48 hours and the tracks are inspected to insure safe passenger travel.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## guest

Yes, but is the moratorium still on? Was there a second avalanche?


----------



## RalphCT

guest said:


> Yes, but is the moratorium still on? Was there a second avalanche?


the avalanche was around midnight Sunday night Mountain Time. Still 9 1/3 hours more before the 48 hour period is over. I don't know, however, if the track has passed inspection for passenger travel.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## montana mike

According to BNSF in WFH both tracks are clear and freights are moving on this line. With the forecast for rain below 6000 feet over the next several days and temperatures above freezing during this time this could cause additional issues, but one never knows at this time of the year. The snowpack is above normal and avalanches can occur for a couple more months yet.


----------



## tim49424

Looks like both 8 left Seattle and 7 left Chicago on time tonight, so I'm assuming the derailment is cleaned up? However 28 hasn't departed PDX yet.


----------



## CHamilton

Apparently the last avalanche/snowslide near Glacier Park was on Monday, so the 48-hour moratorium should have expired sometime today (Wed. 3/5) unless there has been another event since then.


----------



## tim49424

I'd momentarily forgotten about the avalanche near Whitefish.....the derailment seemed to be just about resolved when the avalanche happened. Well, it looks like full trains headed in each direction.


----------



## CHamilton

> Amtrak Busing Passengers Over Marias Pass Amid Avalanche Threat
> Passengers will ride motor coaches between Whitefish and Shelby until Saturday
> By Justin Franz, 03-05-14
> Amtrak is busing its passengers between Whitefish and Shelby until at least Saturday amid the persistent threat of avalanches on Marias Pass, company officials said.
> According to Amtrak [sic, should be BNSF] spokesperson Marc Magliari, passengers will board buses at either Whitefish or Shelby for the trip over Marias Pass. Meanwhile, the empty passenger train will continue over the mountain. According to Magliari, BNSF rules require that loaded passenger trains not run if there has been a recent slide.


----------



## JoeBas

LOL can you leave your roomette "Set up" while being bussed? Might be nice to travel "light" if having to ride the bu...


----------



## anir dendroica

Looks like there was another avalanche this morning.

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-consumer/CBDA4A726231112B86257C9300536A7C?Open


----------



## RRUserious

Thanks, Mother Nature! You're BFF of the train traveler!


----------



## fairviewroad

Wow, what a pain. Wonder if the buses are making station stops along the way? One would think so, since the most logical highway route would basically take you right past all of the missed stops.

To be most efficient, time-wise, you'd have at least three buses. One to pick up passengers at skipped stations that would be timed to meet the train at the opposite end, one to drop off passengers at skipped stations, and one (or more) express buses. But I'd guess there's not the passenger load at the skipped stations to merit both a "pick-up" and a "drop-off" bus.


----------



## CHamilton

And from the NW Mudslide Season thread, the wonderful  news that EB passengers will also be bussed between Everett and

Seattle until Saturday morning, thanks to a mudslide at Mukilteo.


----------



## CHamilton

Avalanches again block rail lines



> For the second time in a week, BNSF Railway’s main line across Northwest Montana is closed after several avalanches came down on the tracks between Essex and Marias Pass....
> 
> The slides have stopped all rail traffic in the area due to the threat of continued avalanches in the area south of Glacier National Park.
> 
> Jones said the railroad is asking park officials for permission to conduct avalanche control on park lands above the tracks....
> 
> Jones says it’s unclear how long the rail line will be blocked. As of noon Thursday, track clearing efforts were yet to begin.
> 
> Beginning late Sunday, the tracks were closed for about 12 hours while a slide covered the tracks with nearly 7 feet of snow and debris.
> 
> Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari says the railroad continues to bus passengers between stations in Shelby and Whitefish.
> 
> Amtrak trains had been running without passengers along the Middle Fork corridor because of the avalanche risk.


----------



## RalphCT

The problem with avalanche mitigation was brought up and discussed between BNSF and Glacier National park several years ago. A study was done and recommendations made. How many of those recommendations did BNSF implement? None.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## PRR 60

RalphCT said:


> The problem with avalanche mitigation was brought up and discussed between BNSF and Glacier National park several years ago. A study was done and recommendations made. How many of those recommendations did BNSF implement? None.
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


What kind of recommendations were made?


----------



## Carey

Ok guys. I travel from Seattle on Sunday 3/9. Any idea if I will go of not? This is my one time a year train trip


----------



## CHamilton

The weather forecast for the Seattle area calls for continuing rain and wind, which means that there could be additional mudslides between Seattle and Everett. If slides happen, train 8 will not be allowed to travel with passengers between those two points for 48 hours after the time of the slide. But you would likely be bussed from Seattle, and would start your train journey in Everett.

BNSF is also following the 48-hour rule in Montana, so if additional slides occur near Glacier Park, you could also be bussed in that area. But our Montana members can tell us how likely that is.

In any event, Amtrak will get you there. The worst-case scenario (depending on how far you are going) seems to be a bus, then a train, then another bus, then another train. Not a great situation, but better than nothing.


----------



## Ispolkom

Well on the bright side, BNSF is now attacking avalanche-prone slopes between Essex and Marias Pass with helicopter-dropped explosives. I'm sure that will work out well...


----------



## RalphCT

The National Park Service supported building more snow sheds. There is at least one missing snow shed becase that one burned some years ago and was never replaced. Other snow sheds are too short for the avalanche chutes they are in. And numerous avalanche chutes run down to the tracks where there are no snow sheds. I don't have the actual study in hand but there was a cost analysis that indicated the construction of on ore snow sheds would, in the long term be offset by savings from continuously running freight trains during periods of high avalanche danger.

The BNSF favored using more explosive release the snow and bring it down. One big negative to this is that trains would be halted when avalanche danger was high, then explosives would release the snow and have to be removed from the tracks before train traffic could resume. But BNSF was adamant that explosive were the way to go.

In the meantime, for this period of high avalanche danger Glacier National Park, which borders the BNSF main line through the Steven Canyon west of Marias Pass, has permitted the use of explosives to bring down unstable snow slopes.the story was reported by the Missoulian. A link is here:

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/avalanche-blocks-rail-line-between-essex-and-marias-pass/article_8cae2bd2-a569-11e3-83c9-001a4bcf887a.html

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## CHamilton

> Great Falls Tribune
> Whoa! Randall Powell sent us this photo of the avalanche between Essex and Marias Pass that blocked train traffic for the second time this week: http://gftrib.com/1f3iB70


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Ispolkom said:


> Well on the bright side, BNSF is now attacking avalanche-prone slopes between Essex and Marias Pass with helicopter-dropped explosives. I'm sure that will work out well...


Wait, if they have helicopters... instead of dropping expensive, dangerous, and time-consuming explosives, just use them to carry the passengers over the avalanche! No buses needed, problem solved!


----------



## CHamilton

> Passengers Wait Hours For Empire Builder, America's Least Reliable Train
> 
> Northwest News Network | March 6, 2014 6:04 p.m.
> 
> The worst train in America is right here in the Northwest: the famed Empire Builder.
> 
> It’s been around since the early 20th century and takes passengers from Seattle or Portland past vistas in Glacier National Park and the Rockies, all the way to Chicago.
> 
> But the sudden rise in freight traffic in and out of North Dakota’s oil fields has made the Empire Builder the country’s most unreliable train.
> 
> “There was a time when you could set your clock, as they say, by the Empire Builder,” says Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari.
> 
> Clearly, that time has passed. The Empire Builder’s on-time performance rating is the worst in the country: 31 percent for the last year. In December, it dipped to 15 percent.
> 
> Magliari says passengers have seen eight, 10, even 12-hour delays....
> 
> The Empire builder is Amtrak’s most popular overnight train with 500,000 passengers per year. But lately ridership has declined.
> 
> Amtrak is in talks with BNSF, which actually owns the tracks and decides which trains go and which trains wait. Some of the snags are temporary, like weather and track closures. But the longer-term problem facing passengers is that the Empire Builder uses the very same set of tracks the booming oil industry needs to transport long, slow-moving freight cars — and that shows little sign of letting up.


----------



## montana mike

Well, at least Amtrak is finally admitting they have problem! The avalanche danger will get worse before it gets better. The Spring rains at higher levels in the Mountains, especially Glacier National Park, often create conditions for the snowpack that cause avalanches. This year the snow depths are above average and we are now experiencing mild temperatures which is raising the snow level to sometimes above 6000 feet (meanwhile the snowpack doesn't reach maximum depth at the highest levels in the Park until early April), which is a recipe for very unstable snow. I have seen major avalanches occur into late April and early May, when the snowpack has been deep, so no rest for the weary I am afraid until we get substantial melting and warmer temperatures


----------



## jis

Alaska Rail Road has its own Mortar brigade to shoot at avalanche prone slopes and bring the snow down more predictably. It was talked about a lot in the "Railroad Alaska" series on the "Destination America" cable channel.

I found this very interesting paper titled: Evolution of Avalanche Risk Reduction on the Alaska Railroad (PDF).


----------



## CHamilton

From Facebook:



> Tonight will be one of those nights where #7 and #8 may be at Midway Station in St. Paul at the same time....get those cameras ready.


When life gives you lemons, make foam


----------



## CHamilton

EB passengers will continue to be bussed between Seattle and Everett through Saturday.


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

At this point if I were traveling through from Chicago to Seattle/Portland or vice versa I would opt to take the CZ to SAC and then CS up to SEA/PDX instead of the EB.


----------



## montana mike

The entire EB portion of the map is amazing--All of the EBs are very late, with #8 in eastern MN now almost 20 hours behind. I think everyone needs to be reminded that with the exception of the 20 hour late train, the rest are 4-6 hours late due basically to the freight traffic issues. The weather on the Hi-Line now is about as good as it gets for early March (40-50 degrees in much of MT yesterday), and will turn even milder much of this week.

One of my BNSF folks here in MT said the avalanches and derailment took the media focus off the continued "absolute mess" as it relates to waaaaaay too much traffic on this BNSF segment and again reiterated that there are no quick fixes in the cards.


----------



## andersone

i rather like this picture of the Essex Slide from







from the Flathead Beacon


----------



## Tumbleweed

Another breaking news article :mellow: .... http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/428748/


----------



## EB delay tracker

8(5) 20+ hours late! This is gone too far.


----------



## montana mike

Tumbleweed said:


> Another breaking news article :mellow: .... http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/428748/


What wasn't stated in the article is that this is part of a THREE year process which just barely started last year. My BNSF contacts also say large daily bottlenecks are also building in western MT between Whitefish and Libby and in Central MT as well. These areas are just "on the drawing board" for capital expenditures beginning in 2015 and beyond. This is going to be a long process. The arrival of the 5000 new (higher safety standard) tanker cars beginning in late Spring and running thru mid-summer, should also add to the delays as well according to my sources. They stated BNSF will be barely able to keep up with the increased demand to move crude oil even with these new assets!!


----------



## neroden

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> At this point if I were traveling through from Chicago to Seattle/Portland or vice versa I would opt to take the CZ to SAC and then CS up to SEA/PDX instead of the EB.


Yep, that's what I'd do too. It's still slower -- it's 3 1/2 days. But it's not that much slower than the worst-case scenario on the Empire Builder -- with a 20+ hour delay, the Empire Builder is now taking roughly 3 days. And the Empire Builder currently has two bus bridges (!) if I'm not mistaken so it would be a more pleasant trip.

I guess the trains are being run empty through the prohibited zones, which seems unwise (don't want to lose rolling stock -- or worse, engineers and conductors -- to a mudslide or an avalanche). But I can't imagine what procedures would be used otherwise, as Amtrak can't very well run trains from Everett to Whitefish with no facilities at either end.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

If I'm reading this correctly, the EB that was due into Chicago on Wednesday March 3rd at 3:55 pm... arrived Friday morning at 4:23 am, more than 36 hours late??? Wow!


----------



## montana mike

Amtrak's new tag line: It's not just a train trip it is an adventure!!


----------



## RRUserious

Avalanches must be part of the history of the route back to when the first track was laid. It is sort of piling on with all the other EB problems, but it should always have figured into people's expectations when going through a mountain range. I'll just bet every train line that runs through mountains in the world has avalanche problems. I have a friend in Switzerland, and I emailed her, and she said "oh yes, we have them too". Can't see how any line anywhere can have as good a punctuality record as one running through flatlands.

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Swiss_train_derails_due_to_avalanche_rail_operator_999.html


----------



## Henry Kisor

A friend who got into MPLS this morning on the eastbound EB 6 hours 33 minutes late said that the passengers were bused between Whitefish and Shelby while the train went on empty through the avalanche zone at Glacier Park. The worst part, she said, was that all the lunches were put on the first of the four buses that transported the passengers, and the bus did not stop to redistribute the lunches among the other three. Result was that when the train got to Shelby in midafternoon, three-quarters of the passengers were hungry and super unhappy.

Yup, the EB is an adventure . . .


----------



## yarrow

Henry Kisor said:


> A friend who got into MPLS this morning on the eastbound EB 6 hours 33 minutes late said that the passengers were bused between Whitefish and Shelby while the train went on empty through the avalanche zone at Glacier Park. The worst part, she said, was that all the lunches were put on the first of the four buses that transported the passengers, and the bus did not stop to redistribute the lunches among the other three. Result was that when the train got to Shelby in midafternoon, three-quarters of the passengers were hungry and super unhappy.
> 
> Yup, the EB is an adventure . . .


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> Amtrak's new tag line: It's not just a train trip it is an adventure!!


And the adventure begins when you get on board!

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## CHamilton

A friend from Minnesota says :

We drove on US10 from Anoka to Motley yesterday, paralleling the BNSF main line through Minnesota. We saw eight or nine stopped trains (I lost count) and exactly one moving train. A crew was arriving at one of the stopped trains just west of Little Falls as we passed by. No wonder the Builder has a hard time getting through.


----------



## neroden

This is really a disaster. BNSF is going to take years to dig itself out of this hole.

At this point I think Amtrak is better off suspending everything from St. Paul to Spokane until BNSF can clear a path. There's too much ill-will being generated by this. If St. Paul to Chicago and Spokane to Portland could run approximately on time, it would probably be better overall for Amtrak even with the missing service.

On another note, I see the January 2014 monthly performance report is out... will read now... expecting horrible results for the EB...


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

neroden said:


> This is really a disaster. BNSF is going to take years to dig itself out of this hole.
> 
> At this point I think Amtrak is better off suspending everything from St. Paul to Spokane until BNSF can clear a path. There's too much ill-will being generated by this. If St. Paul to Chicago and Spokane to Portland could run approximately on time, it would probably be better overall for Amtrak even with the missing service.
> 
> On another note, I see the January 2014 monthly performance report is out... will read now... expecting horrible results for the EB...


That's a slippery slope, could end up with another Sunset east situation.


----------



## montana mike

I agree. But who is going to enjoy a train trip that is 20+ hours late?


----------



## Ryan

20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> 20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


Same here. I'm happy as long as we're moving (and I don't HAVE to be somewhere). I do get annoyed when we're just sitting still, but I'm that way in any mode of transportation.


----------



## andersone

I am booked on the EB this summer,,,, and if I am 20 hours late I won't mutter a word,,,,, probably have to cancel a hotel in East Glacier,,, but not a prob.. but i don't think it will be an avalanche in August,,,,,,


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

RyanS said:


> 20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


I don't think most passengers would share that view.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

My problem wouldn't be the 20+ hours - it's the not knowing whether it's going to be 5 hours, 15 hours, 25 hours, or 35 hours...

It's like being on an episode of "Amazing Race" - you're going to be dropped off in a city at a random time of day (or night), and you have no idea whether you'll have any further transportation available, or whether you'll need a hotel, and if so for how long, or where you're going to go and what you're going to eat, etc.


----------



## jebr

RyanS said:


> 20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


Most passengers aren't riding end-to-end, though. In my case, it'd simply mean I'm getting on in St. Cloud 20 hours late, which frankly would anger me more than anything else.


----------



## CHamilton

Busing between Seattle and Everett will continue through Monday afternoon. If there are no further slides, though, Monday's train 8 should leave SEA just in time to be a train rather than a bus. Cross fingers!


----------



## montana mike

The EB's are becoming "intermodal" transportation (i.e.. using busses and trains to get the pax from point A to point B)


----------



## yarrow

good comment about the intermodal eb, monana mike. the eb is a farce


----------



## amamba

RyanS said:


> 20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


Yeah...I thought I wouldn't mind the delayed train but frankly I started getting delirious when I was on that 30 hour late EB. Plus it didn't help that we missed meals and than had nasty amstew. I was getting the "hangries" on the train (hungry + angry = hangry).


----------



## ScottRu

This is ultimately so sad. The EB used to be a fine train. (I took it from Boston to Portland, OR in November...arrived only 20 minutes late. Must have been one of the last "good" trips in quite some time.)


----------



## CHamilton

All Aboard Washington heard a presentation yesterday from Johan Hellman, Executive Director, State Government Affairs, BNSF Railway. He did not have anything definitive to say about the EB situation, but said that there would be a lot of work done this summer on the Hi-Line. Here's one of his slides. It's pretty blurry, but from top left, they read:


2 additional staging tracks at Bellingham Sub [gray]
More than 20 miles of double tracking at Glasgow Sub [green]
Significant double tracking at Lakeside Sub [green]
4 siding extensions at Hillsboro and Dickinson Subs [blue]
2 new sidings at Fallbridge and Lakeside Subs [blue]
New siding and 4 siding extensions at Forsyth Sub [green]
Terminal expansion projects at Glendive and Forsyth Subs [gray]
3 new sidings at Dickinson, Jamestown and Zap Subs [blue]
2 new sidings at Hannibal and River Subs [blue]
Double track 4 miles at River Sub [green]
I also found the attached PDF of BNSF's subs.




subdivisions-map.pdf


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> 20 extra hours on the train? I'd enjoy that, as long as I didn't have anything pressing on the other end of it.


20 unexpected hours with no extra food? Or 20 hours waiting for the train at St. Paul Midway? Wouldn't enjoy either. If I were going from Chicago to Seattle at this point, I'd go via Sacramento, which is longer, but has food and is more reliable. Predictability is critical.

I'm still postponing a trip to Minneapolis until they move the station. If there are still ridiculous delays on the EB at that point, I don't know what I'll do for the eastbound -- schedule an overnight in Chicago in case of delays?

On-time performance is critical. It sank *systemwide* this year for reasons which are not clear, but on the Empire Builder at least it's obvious what the causes are.



D.P. Roberts said:


> My problem wouldn't be the 20+ hours - it's the not knowing whether it's going to be 5 hours, 15 hours, 25 hours, or 35 hours...


Yeah, the unpredictability is the worst.

This isn't just trains. I didn't like circling in the air for an hour over Yuma on an airplane, either. And the unpredictable length of driving time (due to congestion, road conditions, etc.) is a serious negative for driving long distances too.


----------



## dabrilloman

_Neroden...if you don't mind a bus ride, MegaBus departs from SPUD also. They have about 6 trips a day to Chicago. _

_Not sure if you knew that._


----------



## Carey

My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?


----------



## EB_OBS

Carey said:


> My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?


Unfortunately, no.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

EB_OBS said:


> Carey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem is I am going Seattle to Milwaukee. Have flight the following morning home. 20+ hours I miss it. Does amtrak cover something like that?
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, no.
Click to expand...

But to be fair, no carrier of any kind covers something like that. Nobody - air carriers, Amtrak, cruise lines, etc. - covers any kind of loss created due to delays.


----------



## neroden

dabrilloman said:


> _Neroden...if you don't mind a bus ride, MegaBus departs from SPUD also. They have about 6 trips a day to Chicago. _
> 
> _Not sure if you knew that._


Oh, I did. Apart from my motion-sickness, which makes long bus rides quite unpleasant (I'm OK with short bus rides).... Megabus hires extremely inexperienced drivers and has killed people in my area fairly recently due to gross incompetence. I'm sufficiently risk-averse I won't ride Megabus ever.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/driver-acquitted-upstate-megabus-crash-killed-4-passengers-article-1.1029901


----------



## montana mike

I just wish Amtrak would bite the proverbial bullet and be more realistic about the schedule for the Empire Builder. BNSF has said that 4+ hour delays are to be expected in both directions for the "foreseeable future" (meaning until they finish their multi-year track upgrades). The current trains miss schedules day in and day out and will continue to do so for many months? Amtrak has already severed almost all connections for the Builders anyway, so it would seem to make sense to sit down with BNSF (who, according to my local contacts would be amenable to working with them) and come up with more realistic schedules for the next several years. Personally an 8 PM arrival time in CHI and 2 PM in SEA would appear to be more realistic, given the performance ever the past 6 months.

I just don't see the point of having the Empire Builders run many hours late every day for years. What does that prove?


----------



## Ryan

They would also have to sit down with CP and METRA and try to hash out an agreement with all of them.

Also, once there, the extra padding is EXTREMELY difficult to get rid of.


----------



## neroden

The Class Is have developed a record of double-dealing and dishonesty when it comes to adding padding to a schedule. Frequently the padding has translated to "run the trains even slower and they're still not on time". Also, "temporary" padding has not been removed when its causes have gone away.

Since the Class Is have developed a reputation for double-dealing when it comes to schedule planning, Amtrak can't trust them: if padding is added, Amtrak can't trust that the trains will run on time, or that the padding will be removed after it is no longer needed. If BNSF offered a contract with teeth, where BNSF actually guaranteed that the padding would give the desired results, and agreed to pay *large* penalties if it didn't, then Amtrak might be able to do it; legally enforceable contract penalties are one way you deal with an untrustworthy organization.

But would BNSF agree to such penalty clauses? If not, it's a sign that BNSF would, in fact, be planning to betray Amtrak.


----------



## montana mike

Well, if it is "too hard" to adjust a schedule for a long period of time then the LEAST Amtrak should do for prospective pass embers is to have "permanent alert" for the Empire Builder to say that due to the mess on the Hi-Line people should expect at least multi-hour delays enroute with approximate 4+ hour delays at each final destination--give people a reasonable idea as to what to expect. The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

montana mike said:


> The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......


I have yet to hear anyone say that the Empire Builder will be able to make schedule. All the talk is about try to catch up on routine care, and add a few extra tracks here and there. There seem to be no plans to fix the real issues of the route.


----------



## montana mike

Well, BNSF has indeed upped the ante by doubling the amount of money they will spend over the next 12 months compared to what they had originally planned. But as the BNSF folks here locally have told me in order to make a long term and permanent difference BNSF will be required to spend perhaps 4 or 5 times that amount on the Hi-Line over the next 3+ years. The "suits" at Berkshire Hathaway have yet to approve the big "Grand Plan" that would make this happen. Perhaps they will, but as of this month the folks in the trenches have been told no final decisions have been made on spending what is necessary for the long term fix.


----------



## CHamilton

CHamilton said:


> A friend from Minnesota says :
> 
> We drove on US10 from Anoka to Motley yesterday, paralleling the BNSF main line through Minnesota. We saw eight or nine stopped trains (I lost count) and exactly one moving train. A crew was arriving at one of the stopped trains just west of Little Falls as we passed by. No wonder the Builder has a hard time getting through.


And 48 hours later:



> We made the return trip today; this time I counted more carefully. We saw a total of twenty trains in the roughly 110 miles between Motley and Anoka. Fifteen were stopped, five were moving. Four of the moving trains were a group of unit tanker trains, travelling westbound with about 1-2 miles of separation between them. The other was an eastbound mixed freight. Everything else was stopped.
> 
> At least one of the trains was there all weekend. It was headed by NS Heritage unit 1067 -- Reading Lines 'Bee Line Service.' We saw it on Friday and Sunday.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fantasy of sticking to a schedule that no train has met for many months, and will not likely meet for perhaps a couple more years just make no sense......
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to hear anyone say that the Empire Builder will be able to make schedule.
Click to expand...

The Amtrak site says. When I go there to book a ticket on Empire Builder, it shows me CHI departure 2.15pm, SEA arrival 10.25am. We all know, and Amtrak knows too, that this is just "on paper" these days, so they should put up a permanent sticky note there cautioning potential passengers that "this train is subject to long delays due to problems on the Hi-Line". This can help Amtrak save its back too in a way. If disgruntled passengers call asking for refunds or vouchers for the delay, Amtrak can tell them "We told you so!"


----------



## montana mike

I have spoken with Customer Relations about doing just what you have suggested twice now and both times they said Amtrak had no current plans to detail the major issues and estimated daily delays and were sticking to the original schedule--and both people, off the record, agreed with me that it is an "absurd" situation to put out a schedule that they know cannot be achieved on almost every trip traveled........arrrgh.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

CHamilton said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> A friend from Minnesota says :
> 
> We drove on US10 from Anoka to Motley yesterday, paralleling the BNSF main line through Minnesota. We saw eight or nine stopped trains (I lost count) and exactly one moving train. A crew was arriving at one of the stopped trains just west of Little Falls as we passed by. No wonder the Builder has a hard time getting through.
> 
> 
> 
> And 48 hours later:
> 
> 
> 
> We made the return trip today; this time I counted more carefully. We saw a total of twenty trains in the roughly 110 miles between Motley and Anoka. Fifteen were stopped, five were moving. Four of the moving trains were a group of unit tanker trains, travelling westbound with about 1-2 miles of separation between them. The other was an eastbound mixed freight. Everything else was stopped.
> 
> At least one of the trains was there all weekend. It was headed by NS Heritage unit 1067 -- Reading Lines 'Bee Line Service.' We saw it on Friday and Sunday.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

BNSF Railway is hiring about 25 new train conductors at each crew location. Can we say Melt Down?


----------



## neroden

BNSF's situation is reminiscent of the even larger "meltdown" which UP had during its merger, and the somewhat smaller mess CSX had after it took over half of Conrail... honestly at this point Amtrak is the least of their problems; BNSF execs made a huge error of judgment. In this weather it seems wrong to call it a "meltdown" -- maybe I'll call it the BNSF "freeze-up".



montana mike said:


> Well, BNSF has indeed upped the ante by doubling the amount of money they will spend over the next 12 months compared to what they had originally planned.


Good.



> But as the BNSF folks here locally have told me in order to make a long term and permanent difference BNSF will be required to spend perhaps 4 or 5 times that amount on the Hi-Line over the next 3+ years. The "suits" at Berkshire Hathaway have yet to approve the big "Grand Plan" that would make this happen.


The way B.H. normally works, this shouldn't need approval from anyone above Carl Ice. BNSF execs can just decide to plow all income back into investment (pass none of it back to BH), or indeed to issue BNSF's own bonds. Buffett's policy traditionally has been only to interfere personally with insurance companies (that's his actual area of expertise), and with companies which got themselves tangled up in criminal activity or lost money for years on end.



> Perhaps they will, but as of this month the folks in the trenches have been told no final decisions have been made on spending what is necessary for the long term fix.


Bleah.


----------



## montana mike

I believe that because the amount is so very large that even Mr. Ice is not allowed to make the call without at least getting the blessing or acknowledgment from the BH brass. My top local contact (fairly high up in the food chain) says we are talking about "well over a Billion dollars just for the Montana portion of the upgrades, which he said took the senior BNSF managers by surprise when the numbers were presented last summer.

Nothing that anyone can do about what was NOT done in the past. Only what BNSF will do going forward. I believe, after talking with MT BNSF folks, that there is not a crisis and they sense from the top management that they do not need to act with great urgency. They are making tons of money right now anyway and as has been stated previously here in this forum, Amtrak's woes are a very minor issue for BNSF's overall picture and plan. Since I do take the Empire Builders on a regular basis I have noticed some "modest" positive changes in ride and a few improvements to the trackage along the Hi-Line (especially around Williston), but nothing on the scale of what is needed to restore some semblance of on time performance for both freight and passenger services. btw-BNSF keeps reminding its freight customers that their goods will arrive anywhere from 24-48 hours past the "posted" schedules for the foreseeable future, so at least they have alerted these clients about the the issues effecting their deliveries.....


----------



## neroden

> I believe, after talking with MT BNSF folks, that there is not a crisis and they sense from the top management that they do not need to act with great urgency.


Really, really, really stupid. I can't express how stupid this is. They're being grilled by the *state legislature* and they don't think there's a crisis? That is stupid.
Maybe I'll sell some more of my Berkshire Hathaway stock.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> btw-BNSF keeps reminding its freight customers that their goods will arrive anywhere from 24-48 hours past the "posted" schedules for the foreseeable future, so at least they have alerted these clients about the the issues effecting their deliveries.....


Two responses come to mind1) Customers switch to UP or CP.

(2) Captive customers complain to the STB and/or the state government and/or Congress, demanding re-regulation of the railroads.

Scenario #2 is one which BNSF should be assiduously avoiding. Instead it is inviting it. Well, this is what I expect from the stupidity which rules corporate America today.


----------



## greatcats

Having been a rail employee in New Jersey, I just liove one of the previous posts ( ( I think by Montana Mike ) that remarks by those in the trenches were disregarded by the suits. Nothing new there. Why we loved management !!! Hah!


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> we are talking about "well over a Billion dollars just for the Montana portion of the upgrades, which he said took the senior BNSF managers by surprise when the numbers were presented last summer.


What an utter failure of leadership to be so clueless as to the realities of live on the ground.


----------



## montana mike

Agree fully with the above comments. This is what can happen when a "holding company" buys something like a railroad and upper management isn't totally focused on the needs of that unit as an independent railroad would likely be. ALL of the local BNSF people I speak with here in MT said it was two years before the BH people even gave them the "time of the day". Referring to the BNSF as a "profit center" and not a railroad, no additional funding for track improvements were allowed to be allocated until things got really ugly. While Mr Ice may have some autonomy, clearly the bottom line at BH dictates that at least some decisions were being made that were not in the best interest of this railroad or it's customers, but rather the profits of the holding company and its shareholders, with Mr Buffett being one of the biggest. Now BNSF has to play catch up--with the big question being how quickly.


----------



## montana mike

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> btw-BNSF keeps reminding its freight customers that their goods will arrive anywhere from 24-48 hours past the "posted" schedules for the foreseeable future, so at least they have alerted these clients about the the issues effecting their deliveries.....
> 
> 
> 
> Two responses come to mind1) Customers switch to UP or CP.
> 
> (2) Captive customers complain to the STB and/or the state government and/or Congress, demanding re-regulation of the railroads.
> 
> Scenario #2 is one which BNSF should be assiduously avoiding. Instead it is inviting it. Well, this is what I expect from the stupidity which rules corporate America today.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately a grain coop on the Hi-Line in MT or ND has no other choice but to use BNSF. But you are correct on #2. I have seen these proceedings here locally in MT and sometimes they are successful in getting the attention of the state regulators, other times the customer gets nowhere. Perhaps this time, with the high visibility of BNSF's failures they would get better traction.


----------



## RRUserious

I figure any published schedule is a fiction that could be based on a dart board. They don't know when any train on the line will be anywhere. People need to know this and have some sort of warning system to learn where they can intersect with it. And once on, not figure anything else is as advertised. I'm not spending money on an EB ticket till I see something fundamental change. Frankly, I'd rather drive myself. Neither the bus lines nor Amtrak is professional anymore.


----------



## CHamilton

The EB is being bussed again today, and likely tomorrow (Tuesday) between Seattle and Everett.


----------



## montana mike

#8 actually has a slight chance of being "only" 4 hours late into CHI today--the best performance for #8 in a long time!!! #7/27 is plugging along about 5+ hours late pulling into SEA/PDX shortly, so not much good news on the Western Front I am afraid.


----------



## CHamilton

montana mike said:


> #7/27 is plugging along about 5+ hours late pulling into SEA/PDX shortly, so not much good news on the Western Front I am afraid.


At least trains 7 and 8 are trains rather than buses from SEA today.


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> #8 actually has a slight chance of being "only" 4 hours late into CHI today--the best performance for #8 in a long time!!!


Yes, Mrs. Ispolkom was surprised to see #8 go by her office only 3 hours late this morning. When she called me I had to ask to make sure that it wasn't a stub train.


----------



## montana mike

Anyone know what happened to 7(12) yesterday? It departed CHI on time but departed GLN almost 2 hours late and has lost another 2+ hours in the meantime!! Unusual places to lose time for the Empire Builder.

:-(


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> Anyone know what happened to 7(12) yesterday? It departed CHI on time but departed GLN almost 2 hours late and has lost another 2+ hours in the meantime!! Unusual places to lose time for the Empire Builder.
> 
> :-(


I was wondering about that too..


----------



## tim49424

TraneMan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know what happened to 7(12) yesterday? It departed CHI on time but departed GLN almost 2 hours late and has lost another 2+ hours in the meantime!! Unusual places to lose time for the Empire Builder.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering about that too..
Click to expand...


My guess (complete speculation) maybe there was a broken or stuck switch. That happened to us the last time I was on #8 in that same area.


----------



## montana mike

I see the poor train is now well over 6 hours behind--another very late arrival in SEA and PDX I am afraid. At least Amtrak cobbled together the extra train set last fall. Without that move the Empire Builder service would have ground to a complete halt.


----------



## fairviewroad

montana mike said:


> I see the poor train is now well over 6 hours behind--another very late arrival in SEA and PDX I am afraid. At least Amtrak cobbled together the extra train set last fall. Without that move the Empire Builder service would have ground to a complete halt.


How long is that extra set going to be available? Will the equipment be needed in the busier summer months on other routes?


----------



## montana mike

I cannot imagine that Amtrak could pull that extra set from this route any time in the foreseeable future. As we all see the arrival times at both final destinations are so late now that without that set the Empire Builder schedule would quickly collapse and it would become a three days a week train. BNSF has let Amtrak know in no uncertain terms they should expect 4-6 hour delays every day along much of the EB's route until "further notice". So the extra set is all that is keeping this route going.


----------



## fairviewroad

montana mike said:


> So the extra set is all that is keeping this route going.


But at a certain point Amtrak has to make a business decision. If the extra equipment, particularly the sleepers, can be deployed on LD routes over the summer that will generate extra revenue, then they might make a calculated choice to pull the 6th Builder set. Because the 6th set isn't actually generating any revenue for Amtrak, it's simply protecting tickets already purchased.

If the EB's performance is so bad anyhow, Amtrak might want to put its resources in places where it can bring in dollars. If you figure that even in its current situation, the train will arrive in SEA/PDX "early" enough to make the turn on half the days. (And by making the turn, I mean the eastbound departures can leave under 2 hours late.) On the other half, you bus from Spokane and once or twice a month you simply annul the whole business.

Not that I'm advocating for that. But I'm sure the numbers-crunchers will consider all the options.


----------



## montana mike

Given the reality that the current EBs are not able to make the turn most days now on the west coast (for example 7(12) is now over 8 hours late) AND that bookings on the EB's for the summer are usually totally sold out, what does Amtrak do with the tens of thousands of tickets already sold on these trains. The time to pull the plug was months ago. Our local travel agent in the Valley says that the EB sleepers have been sold out on many of the summer trips for quite a while now. Killing 4 of the run days on the Hi-Line (which is what would have to happen if they pulled the extra train set) would not only destroy the Empire Builder as a viable LD train it would put a major hit onto Amtrak's LD train bottom-line, since the fares Amtrak gets for these trips in the summer are often quite high.

I don't dispute your reasoning at all, just that the time to make such a decision has long since past...........


----------



## zephyr17

Just did a trial reservation for EVR-NYP next week and the LSL is still showing as a valid connection.


----------



## fairviewroad

montana mike said:


> I don't dispute your reasoning at all, just that the time to make such a decision has long since past...........


Fair point. Wish someone on the inside could confirm whether the 6th set is staying long-term or not. Bear in mind that the last time they

scrounged up a 6th set, that was only temporary. But I think it's already lasted longer this time around. (But so have the problems).


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> Anyone know what happened to 7(12) yesterday? It departed CHI on time but departed GLN almost 2 hours late and has lost another 2+ hours in the meantime!! Unusual places to lose time for the Empire Builder.
> 
> :-(


It departed but had engine problems right away and shoved back into CHI. Departed for the 2nd time about an hour and half later.


----------



## EB_OBS

I have heard no talk about removing the sixth set from the Empire Builder.

I've also not heard any talk about losing ridership this summer during peak season. Now I have heard of some group cancelations but I forsee this space being sold anyway. I guess we'll see


----------



## PRR 60

I posted a story on the General Rail Discussions board about the impact of the BNSF meltdown on freight shippers.

It's Not Just the Builder being Impacted on BNFS


----------



## montana mike

Yup. I read the article in the WSJ about this mess too, with the focus on the negative impacts the BNSF meltdown has had on a wide range of goods. BNSF's "good fortune" in unexpectedly getting all of this oil biz has been a double edged sword to be sure!


----------



## neroden

It still seems so wrong to call it a meltdown. Freezeup?


----------



## Jim

Jumping head first into the gauntlet today!

Bad ordered diner looking to cause about 90 minute delay and knock us out of our slot........along for the ride!


----------



## Jim

Guess i should mention, #7 out of Chicago


----------



## montana mike

Bummer. The Builders cannot catch any sort of break!!! I just can't wait for the wonderful combination of springtime flooding and increased construction activity coming up next month!!!


----------



## greatcats

Montana Mike. Thanks for keeping us informed with your frequent reports. Maybe there could be a few wildfires and a tornado to keep things interesting.


----------



## montana mike

LOL. If I didn't love train travel and especially the Empire Builder this would make a great story line for a sitcom, but sadly it's all too real. One footnote in all of this mess is the turmoil in both Amtrak and BNSF employee schedules. My BNSF contacts were all saying that it has been an utter and chaotic mess in this regard. The "human toll" is often unspoken and unseen, but very real.

With all of the snow we have had this winter in western MT I am hoping that wildfires won't play much of a role in train delays towards the latter part of the summer, but one never knows.


----------



## TraneMan

Wonder what happen to #8 between MSP and RDW. Lost a couple of hours there.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Guest

We passed #8 between Milwaukee and Columbus. Looks to be a pretty good as far as recent standards go.

We're still holding onto 90 min delay. Turns out it was a sleeper. Zephyr had the diner to swap.

I'm just along for the ride. Whatever delay is fine, I've got my sleeper.


----------



## jannie

Speaking as someone who is doesn't ride the train that often, but feels a certain affection for train travel, it sickens me to see what has happened to an industry (passenger train travel). We passengers play second fiddle to frieght traffic -- sitting along the side while frieght traffic goes on its merry way. Through the years I have travelled long distance on the California Zepher, Southwest Chief, Capital Limited and Crescent. We once sat in the Denver Station waiting room 6 hours not knowing why we were not leaving to go east to Chicago so ok. Now here I am with tickets on the Empire Builder and have been finding out that I can expect sometimes huge delays.. I had a choice at the time of booking to use the California Zepher, but not only was it longer... I'm going from Chicago to Seattle and back. But it is more expensive.

I am beginning to wonder if it would have been worth the less hassle. of a. finding out that I may arrive 10 hours late into Seattle and potentally missing a connection of a different transportation. And coming back so very late into Chicago that I only have 2 hours before my next morning train. So who wants to pay $10 each way for the cab). to get there and try to sleep for 2 hours.

Had I known all of this I would have probably made different arrangements.

Passenger trains should not pay second fiddle it's an important mode of transportation. I wonder if those in charge (executives) ever ride a long distance train. If not it should be required!!


----------



## Ryan

jannie said:


> Speaking as someone who is doesn't ride the train that often, but feels a certain affection for train travel, it sickens me to see what has happened to an industry (passenger train travel). We passengers play second fiddle to frieght traffic -- sitting along the side while frieght traffic goes on its merry way.


That's not what's happening here.

The entire line is a clusterflock of epic proportions, because the suits at Berkshire Hathaway were too dumb to listen to their people saying that they had to spend money on infrastructure (or because the suits at BNSF were so clueless they didn't realize the railway was falling apart).

Nothing's moving smoothly out there.


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> The entire line is a clusterflock of epic proportions, because the suits at Berkshire Hathaway were too dumb to listen to their people saying that they had to spend money on infrastructure (or because the suits at BNSF were so clueless they didn't realize the railway was falling apart).
> Nothing's moving smoothly out there.


Oh, this screwup is years in the making.

1) The Hi Line has always been the unloved sister of BNSF (which, of course stands for Brand New Santa Fe). While the Southern Transcon, the former Santa Fe line, has been constantly upgraded since the merger, the northern lines have been neglected. Remember when the Minot-Grand Forks line was to be abandoned? That's only 5 years ago.

2) The explosion in oil shipments has caught everyone by surprise. Sure, there was big talk, but I notice that only in the past few weeks has Enbridge actually gotten binding commitments to ship oil in their planned Sandpiper pipeline. At least two planned pipelines evaporated because the builders couldn't get commitments from shippers. If the Bakken field had been sure to be as big as it turned out to be, there would already be pipelines under construction. That brings up 3

3) Rail shipment of oil is volatile. Railroads can't compete with pipelines on price, so they have to compete on flexibility. The last time railroads shipped so much oil was in 1943, and that was because of **** U-Boats sinking tankers. After the Big Inch was built, oil shipments declined. Usually, as an oil field matures, pipelines will be built, and the rail business will decline as well.

4) That doesn't even include the possibilities of government regulation. The Cassleton derailment was lucky, because it wasn't *in* Cassleton. One Lac Megantic disaster in the US, and the business of shipping oil by rail will change very fast.

3 and 4 discouraged BNSF from investing in infrastructure. What's the point of building sidings and double tracking if the business is going to disappear in a few years? Better to flood the system and make your money, based on the real fact that most shippers on the Hi Line don't have any choice. They have to ship on the railroad. Then things go back to their former, slower pace. Something similar happens every year that there's a big grain harvest.


----------



## montana mike

The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades. Both our MT senators, who publicly profess their support of the pipeline, have privately told me that the pipeline is effectively DITW, saying the administration has no intention of approving it. The amount of oil coming out of the ground grows monthly and the ONLY avenue most of the energy people have to move much of this stuff is via rail. Yes the shipment numbers can be somewhat volatile, but as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession. I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.

Note: Looking at the latest MT agricultural numbers from the state, almost all commodities were actually down in volume slightly this year except for wheat, which was only up 4%, hardly a number capable of causing major dislocations. And even that 4% number is skewed, because only the Spring wheat was actually up, the winter wheat, which is the big crop, was actually down slightly. So anyone saying there were BIG Ag volumes causing this glitch are just not reading the tea leaves correctly.


----------



## montana mike

Whoopee: #8 arrived in CHI just under 3 hours late tonight!!!! Making progress. For some reason the weekends help a bit on the transit times for the EB's.


----------



## Jim

We hit a peak delay of about 4 1/2 hours through ND before making up close to 2 hrs of it through Montana.

I don't know if this is exactly the norm, in the entire route from Chicago, we took the siding for 1 train. ...... and that was #8.

We took some delay running below top speed behind some freights, but i think BNSF put us above everything else and held the delay down to a reasonable time.


----------



## montana mike

Hopefully they are doing their best to make amends for the horrendous issues that got nationwide attention. The start of Spring construction and possible flooding (although much lower chance of any major issues this year according to NOAA) will tell the tale in 4-6 weeks.

I ask my BNSF contacts weekly if their estimate of 4+ hour delays are changing any and so far they say that estimate still looks good. Perhaps yesterday's train was an anomaly or a small sign of a modest improvement in the performance of the train. The avalanche danger is slowly winding down in the Rockies, the real cold weather has past and much of the 2013 grain harvest has been moved (either into silos or for transshipment). The only fly in the proverbial ointment is the increasing energy related shipments-both materials into the oil patch and oil moving out....time will tell.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.


I've never ridden the EB west of WFH - I know it's single track through Whitefish, but I didn't know there was a tunnel west of there. I keep hearing that BNSF needs to double track the Hi Line - do you think this means double track through Whitefish and an expansion of this tunnel would ever be a possibility?


----------



## Green Eye

I have a ticket to ride the Empire Builder in late April, Spokane to Chicago. I have to fly out of Chicago (being on time for a family wedding is mandatory, otherwise I'd take the Capitol Limited). Because of the delays I have arranged my flight for two days after I'm scheduled to arrive in Chicago. If the train is late, oh well, I'll have 38 hours to make my connection. If it's on time, I'll just explore Chicago. I'll probably go to the Museum of Science and Industry to see the Pioneer Zephyr exhibit.

But, thanks to this forum, I know not to make a close connection. Good work.


----------



## yarrow

D.P. Roberts said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was in downtown Whitefish tonight, and we parked right next to the rail station and the entire yard was jammed with at least a dozen freights (WFH is a big BNSF yard and crew change point), with movement in both directions, mostly very slow, since just west of WFH it's single track thru the long 7 mile tunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never ridden the EB west of WFH - I know it's single track through Whitefish, but I didn't know there was a tunnel west of there. I keep hearing that BNSF needs to double track the Hi Line - do you think this means double track through Whitefish and an expansion of this tunnel would ever be a possibility?
Click to expand...

the tunnel west of wfh is the 7 mile long flathead tunnel 42 mi west of wfh


----------



## montana mike

Building a twin 7 mile tunnel is not likely in the cards at all. There are actually two long tunnels west of WFH. The one in MT and then one under Stevens Pass in WA


----------



## George Harris

montana mike said:


> Building a twin 7 mile tunnel is not likely in the cards at all. There are actually two long tunnels west of WFH. The one in MT and then one under Stevens Pass in WA


And these are the limiting factors in the hi-line capacity. However, construction of a long tunnel is so costly that it is unlikely without outside help.


----------



## jim

Mike, when you get a chance, pop into the Izaak Walton Inn and have their featured cocktail "Montana Mike."

Looks like #7 is about 3 hours late to pick us up tonight. Debating if I'll stay up for some fresh air in WFH or just hit the sack.


----------



## CHamilton

EB passengers will once again be bussed between Seattle and Everett through Tuesday night.


----------



## montana mike

jim said:


> Mike, when you get a chance, pop into the Izaak Walton Inn and have their featured cocktail "Montana Mike."
> 
> Looks like #7 is about 3 hours late to pick us up tonight. Debating if I'll stay up for some fresh air in WFH or just hit the sack.


Neat. We visit the IWI fairly often and I never noticed that!! Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## andersone

Green Eye

In was at the MSI this weekend and took the time for Pioneer Zephyr exhibit. Remember I love MSI, have been there more than 100 times but have to say the exhibit is pretty lame. The tour of the runnnig gear is cool, but mixed in wiht a very lousy tour script. Neat that they made the train rumbe in pretty realistic fashion,,, and if you now who Edward G Budd is the end of the presentation is more interesting. in the words of Dick Clark,,, give it 70 for the music and 45 for the lyrics.

BTW - the exhibit is actually "outside" of the regular collection (in the east hall) and you can actually see it without buying a ticket. They still get you $20 for parking though,,,,,


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades.


I think "many decades" is an overestimate: oilmen have been overestimating production of "unconventional" wells most of the time in recent decades, and the USGS doesn't think the Bakken is going to last 50 years.
That said, it's going to last at least 10 more years, which is certainly long enough to be worth putting in some track. And even when the oil boom busts, the route is carrying more and more containers from the Pacific Northwest to Chicago, and that's only going to increase.



> as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession.


Particularly intermodal. The trend there has been consistently up since intermodal was introduced, and there's no reason to expect that trend to reverse ever.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Why yes Intermodal is growing, however trucking is very flexible and service levels are demanding.

Winter kick butt, but spring is almost here. Late delivers are not smile upon. Receivers like Rite-In-Time delivers. Nothing like hit a dock and watch your product go from your truck directly into a store deliver truck with just a few minutes in the warehouse.


----------



## yarrow

andersone said:


> and if you now who Edward G Budd is


it has been a few years since we have been there but i thought it was ralph budd the president of burlington not edward budd, whose company designed and made the train, that is riding with his family in the observation lounge. the two budds have always confused me


----------



## Green Eye

andersone said:


> Green Eye
> 
> In was at the MSI this weekend and took the time for Pioneer Zephyr exhibit. Remember I love MSI, have been there more than 100 times but have to say the exhibit is pretty lame. The tour of the runnnig gear is cool, but mixed in wiht a very lousy tour script. Neat that they made the train rumbe in pretty realistic fashion,,, and if you now who Edward G Budd is the end of the presentation is more interesting. in the words of Dick Clark,,, give it 70 for the music and 45 for the lyrics.
> 
> BTW - the exhibit is actually "outside" of the regular collection (in the east hall) and you can actually see it without buying a ticket. They still get you $20 for parking though,,,,,


Thanks for the info!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Eh, if I was BH or BNSF I wouldn't be wasting my money expanding capacity for oil shipments out of those area either. It going to last until the rest of the world starts realizing just how environmentally devastating it is, and then it's going to stop dead. I'm surprised it hasn't done so yet, and I assume though they won't say it, that's what BNSF and BH are thinking too.


----------



## andersone

i stand corrected

Edward was the president of the Budd Company, Ralph was president of the Burlington

according to Wikipedia

"At one of the lowest points in the Great Depression, January 1, 1932 Ralph Budd left the Great Northern to become president of the Burlington. While leading the Burlington, he met Edward G. Budd (distant relation), who had formed the Budd Companyin 1912, and had recently begun to apply his automobile body construction knowledge to build railroad passenger equipment in a new venture using stainless steel.

The Budd Company built the _Pioneer Zephyr_ for Burlington, and the train's "dawn-to-dusk" run from Denver, Colorado, toChicago, Illinois, on May 26, 1934, in an unprecedented thirteen hours and five minutes, helped usher in the railroadstreamliner era. Both Ralph and Edward Budd, among other notable men including H. L. Hamilton, president of the Winton Motor Company which built the motor for the train, were passengers aboard the record-setting run; the train's speed averaged 77.1 miles per hour (124.1 km/h), reaching a top speed of 112.5 miles per hour (181 km/h). The name of the new train came from _The Canterbury Tales,_ which Ralph Budd had been reading. The story begins with pilgrims setting out on a journey, inspired by the budding springtime and by Zephyrus, the gentle and nurturing west wind. Ralph Budd thought that would be an excellent name for a sleek new traveling machine: "Zephyr."[1] In the summer of 1939 he persuaded the Denver and Rio Grande and the Western Pacific to join the Burlington in establishing a daily through train to the Pacific Coast; a decade later it was replaced by the fabled California Zephyr."


----------



## montana mike

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "slower" pace isn't going to happen soon. I don't know where people get this idea. I speak with energy people weekly here in MT and they continue to say this boom will continue for many decades.
> 
> 
> 
> I think "many decades" is an overestimate: oilmen have been overestimating production of "unconventional" wells most of the time in recent decades, and the USGS doesn't think the Bakken is going to last 50 years.
> That said, it's going to last at least 10 more years, which is certainly long enough to be worth putting in some track. And even when the oil boom busts, the route is carrying more and more containers from the Pacific Northwest to Chicago, and that's only going to increase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as one of my BNSF guys said just today, many pundits are also overlooking the significant increases in Intermodal, coal and general freight since the recession.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Particularly intermodal. The trend there has been consistently up since intermodal was introduced, and there's no reason to expect that trend to reverse ever.
Click to expand...

Yes, remember the wonderful USGS stated, 7 years ago that there was less than a billion barrels of oil and equivalents in the Bakken, then raised their estimate to 23 Billion barrels just several years ago and now the USGS geologists here are saying over 400 Billion barrels of recoverable energy. They don't have a clue and they always are way short on their estimates. These are the same folks that said our energy production would peak in 1976 and continue to go down--oops..... It's all about current technology and an evolution of the ability to extract the energy. My friend, who has been in this biz for 30+ years stands firmly behind 50-70 years-and that estimate is based on using current technology and don't forget the Bakken extends into eastern MT, which is just at the very beginning stages of development. Private land is being bought up and leases issued for thousands of acres of land in this part of MT--watch closely what happens there over the next 3-5 years! I agree that even at 10+ years BNSF needs to do major upgrades. My nephew works for CSX and he too said Intermodal is a big part of rail growth and will only accelerate. Increasing numbers of long haul TL biz now moves by rail and if our economy ever gets going on 8 cylinders again BNSF and others will have their hands full trying to find sufficient Intermodal cars!!


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF guy just sent me a note today pointing out: "things are settling into a pattern of 4-6 hour delays going east bound and 2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."

Looking back over the past several days arrival times in both SEA and CHI, his estimates appear to be right on the money. While I hate getting into CHI at 8 or 9 PM at night instead of 4 PM, i guess if the EB;s can consistently keep to this late, but "not the end of the world" schedule it's something that can be dealt with. Yes, this confirms why Amtrak has stripped the EBs of all connection possibilities other than the LSL (which even this will likely miss a few times), but hopefully the added consist will stay on this route to keep this train running 7 days a week.


----------



## CHamilton

More mudslides, more busing between Seattle and Everett, through Thursday morning this time.


----------



## Tom Booth

I was delayed early this month on the EB by about 14 hours getting into Chicago. The train ahead of us that left Seattle on March 1st got as far as Whitefish and got blocked by a derailment (33 freight cars and two locomotives). When they finally arrived by bus at Shelby, Montana, they were 36 hours late.

My train only made it to Spokane and we had to ride a bus along I-90 through a snowstorm all the way to Shelby. We were told that an avalanche had blocked the tracks at Marias Pass and BNSF has a rule that passenger trains have to wait 48 hours before resuming service.

Amtrak took care of everyone offering a hot supper meal for both coach and sleeper car passengers. The train pulled into Chicago at 4:00 in the morning, but the service center was opened and staffed so that passengers with connecting trains were supplied with hotel reservations, taxi rides and breakfast allowances along with re-scheduled tickets for the connection. I just can't say enough about Amtrak service!!!

I've already planned my next trip this September with Amtrak and I'll try to complete the part of the trip on EB that I missed.


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> 2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."


I would be thrilled with that when I head on the Empire Builder in July, being the last two times I traveled to PDX I had a 9-hour delay (May, 2012) and a termination in SPK (June, 2013). My return trip both times wasn't much better, each 6 hours late. This time, I'll be starting starting in CHI (from KAL) and not riding the EB back due to the suspended connections.


----------



## montana mike

Today's EB's: #8 now almost 7 hours late south of MKE and #7 now almost 5 hours behind in WA. Bummer........


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> My BNSF guy just sent me a note today pointing out: "things are settling into a pattern of 4-6 hour delays going east bound and 2-3 hour delays on the westbound Empire Builders, which should continue thru most of 2014, with just slightly better performance over there weekends due to freight scheduling."


If they could get the eastbound delays down to 2-3 hours and keep the westbound delays down to 2-3 hours.... they'd be back to what Amtrak usually deals with on most of its "long-distance" trains.  
And so they would probably see ridership and revenue start returning to "normal". I can't imagine what ridership would be like if they actually ran the trains on time.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Tom Booth said:


> I was delayed early this month on the EB by about 14 hours getting into Chicago. The train ahead of us that left Seattle on March 1st got as far as Whitefish and got blocked by a derailment (33 freight cars and two locomotives). When they finally arrived by bus at Shelby, Montana, they were 36 hours late.
> 
> My train only made it to Spokane and we had to ride a bus along I-90 through a snowstorm all the way to Shelby. We were told that an avalanche had blocked the tracks at Marias Pass and BNSF has a rule that passenger trains have to wait 48 hours before resuming service.
> 
> Amtrak took care of everyone offering a hot supper meal for both coach and sleeper car passengers. The train pulled into Chicago at 4:00 in the morning, but the service center was opened and staffed so that passengers with connecting trains were supplied with hotel reservations, taxi rides and breakfast allowances along with re-scheduled tickets for the connection. I just can't say enough about Amtrak service!!!
> 
> I've already planned my next trip this September with Amtrak and I'll try to complete the part of the trip on EB that I missed.


I'm glad to hear your story. I've had similar experiences with Amtrak customer service as well. IMO, it's MUCH better than the airlines. I wish they could do something about the lateness, but if they can't, at least they can give customers the impression that they're doing everything they can to take care of them.


----------



## karenH

If I buy a ticket west bound on the EB with connecting bus service to Salem (SLM) and the train is 10 hours late, will they automatically arrange a bus connection even if its only 1-2 people? Or will we be stuck in PDX overnight?


----------



## anir dendroica

The last Amtrak bus from Portland to Salem leaves at 9:30 pm, and it is seldom sold out. If you get in less than 11 hours late, you should be OK. Later than that (very unlikely but possible I suppose) and you will be spending the night in Portland. I would be very surprised if they charter a special late-night connecting bus.


----------



## montana mike

I guess with an average arrival time into CHI, for example, of *524 minutes late* over the past month they are getting a lot of practice. It's almost as if there is no schedule on this train, like third world country transportation , where the train eventually does make it to the destination most of the time, but no one has any real idea when, other than it does pass thru their station at some point during the day. Tough to plan any trip given those circumstances......


----------



## fairviewroad

anir dendroica said:


> The last Amtrak bus from Portland to Salem leaves at 9:30 pm, and it is seldom sold out. If you get in less than 11 hours late, you should be OK. Later than that (very unlikely but possible I suppose) and you will be spending the night in Portland. I would be very surprised if they charter a special late-night connecting bus.


Couple of things: You wouldn't just barely miss the 9:30 p.m. bus. They'd definitely hold it for a while if they knew an inbound EB with connecting passengers was due. Not sure how long they'd hold it, but let's say 30 minutes. So that gives you almost 12 hours of cushion from the EB's scheduled 10:10 a.m. arrival time in PDX.

Second, I don't think they'd charter an entire bus, but if there were a handful of passengers heading to SLM I'd guess they'd just hire a taxi. Probably cheaper than putting everyone up in a hotel, and it gets people to their destination faster. Not sure about EUG and ALY passengers, though. That'd start to be a pretty pricey cab ride.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> I guess with an average arrival time into CHI, for example, of *524 minutes late* over the past month they are getting a lot of practice. It's almost as if there is no schedule on this train, like third world country transportation


Well, a businesswoman I respect just said outright a year or two ago, "This is a third world country."
Let's see... we've got third-world health care, elections which international monitors refuse to monitor because it's too easy to electronically "stuff the ballot box" or "lose votes", a Presidential election actually stolen by the Supreme Court preventing the votes from being counted, torture committed by the government, people imprisoned without trial for political reasons; whistleblowers imprisoned; powerful corporate execs being caught dead to rights stealing land through document forgery, and being let go because they're "too big to fail", the "intelligence" services lying to the elected Congress and spying on them (as has recently been revealed by Feinstein), paramilitary police breaking in people's doors in the middle of the night because the police have the wrong address....

...this is like any third-world banana republic. It's all consistently third-world. Perhaps when people admit this we can start making things better; as long as people are in denial about the current situation, it's hard to improve it.

To get back to Amtrak, at least many people *recognize* that not being able to run the passenger trains on time is unacceptable in a developed country, and that's the first step. On some of these other issues, people still think the US is the best in the world, even though we're not, and that makes it hard even to get started fixing things.


----------



## montana mike

Sadly it's because so many of our citizens now count on a check from Big Brother.

When we can't even run our trains on time we know we are heading down the proverbial slippery slope. As I have said several times in the past the Empire Builders used to run so well you could almost set your watch by them, now sometimes you don't even know which day's train it is!!

I had an economics professor in graduate school who said "beware of the Law of Unintended Consequences". I think we are seeing them now..........


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> Sadly it's because so many of our citizens now count on a check from Big Brother.


I can't imagine that the consistently late arrival of the Empire Builder has anything to do with anything other than BNSF, which isn't a state enterprise. It's all free enterprise's fault. Seriously, what are you talking about?


----------



## montana mike

I was not clear-mea culpa. The EB Mess is mainly the fault of BNSF to be sure. I was referring to neroden's statements about a Third World country--neither of our statements had anything to do directly with the current EB mess. The issue of trains not running on time isn't something that new, Amtrak has had it's struggles, but then so did the legacy railroads as well. Humans run them, so mistakes are made and equipment breaks down. We just didn't need additional "help" from BNSF in the form of too many trains, not enough track.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

http://edmondsbeacon.villagesoup.com/p/trout-without-the-toonerville-trolley/1144093

empire builder or toonerville trolley


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.


----------



## yarrow

Green Maned Lion said:


> I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.


are you speaking from an omnipotent point of view?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm speaking passively because I feel like saying a lot to a lot of people directly and I don't feel like having it deleted.


----------



## George Harris

yarrow said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen the devil and he is Ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> are you speaking from an omnipotent point of view?
Click to expand...

GML: I would disagree with you on this one. It is not ignorance, it is stupidity. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not. You can become highly educated and still be stupid. That is such things as normal results from an action. When you expect something other than the normal results, that is stupidity. The other I have heard, and it is also very true, Insanity is defined as expecting a different outcome from a repeat of the same action.

Quite frequently in many situations we have people that do not understand the problem proposing solutions, commonly completely unworkable solutions.


----------



## Ryan

Someone mark your calendars, I agree with George on something.


----------



## yarrow

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm speaking passively because I feel like saying a lot to a lot of people directly and I don't feel like having it deleted.


maybe you need a forum with more selective membership requirements. such as only those who agree with you and your line of thought. lighten up


----------



## JayPea

RyanS said:


> Someone mark your calendars, I agree with George on something.


----------



## SarahZ

JayPea said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mark your calendars, I agree with George on something.
Click to expand...

Ha! That town is about an hour away from me.


----------



## tim49424

SarahZ said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mark your calendars, I agree with George on something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ha! That town is about an hour away from me.
Click to expand...

I have been there. I'm wondering if that means that I've been to h*ll and back?


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess with an average arrival time into CHI, for example, of *524 minutes late* over the past month they are getting a lot of practice. It's almost as if there is no schedule on this train, like third world country transportation
> 
> 
> 
> Well, a businesswoman I respect just said outright a year or two ago, "This is a third world country."
> Let's see... we've got third-world health care, elections which international monitors refuse to monitor because it's too easy to electronically "stuff the ballot box" or "lose votes", a Presidential election actually stolen by the Supreme Court preventing the votes from being counted, torture committed by the government, people imprisoned without trial for political reasons; whistleblowers imprisoned; powerful corporate execs being caught dead to rights stealing land through document forgery, and being let go because they're "too big to fail", the "intelligence" services lying to the elected Congress and spying on them (as has recently been revealed by Feinstein), paramilitary police breaking in people's doors in the middle of the night because the police have the wrong address....
> 
> ...this is like any third-world banana republic. It's all consistently third-world. Perhaps when people admit this we can start making things better; as long as people are in denial about the current situation, it's hard to improve it.
> 
> To get back to Amtrak, at least many people *recognize* that not being able to run the passenger trains on time is unacceptable in a developed country, and that's the first step. On some of these other issues, people still think the US is the best in the world, even though we're not, and that makes it hard even to get started fixing things.
Click to expand...

If people can't be on time how and why do we expect freight to be on time. Rail is the most efficient domestic system we have. We should expect both to be on time but not in a country controlled by corporate and industry dependant on oil. God forbid we do what is right and economically sound.


----------



## montana mike

What is "right and economically sound"??


----------



## Green Maned Lion

In agreement with the person using the buzz words


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> To get back to Amtrak, at least many people *recognize* that not being able to run the passenger trains on time is unacceptable in a developed country, and that's the first step. On some of these other issues, people still think the US is the best in the world, even though we're not, and that makes it hard even to get started fixing things.
> 
> 
> 
> If people can't be on time how and why do we expect freight to be on time. Rail is the most efficient domestic system we have. We should expect both to be on time but not in a country controlled by corporate and industry dependant on oil. God forbid we do what is right and economically sound.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how you compare Amtrak in an "apples to apples" scenario vs. other modes of transportation.

For example, my usual drive to work is 45 minutes. Today, I got stuck in traffic and it was an hour. That's a 33% increase vs. my normal time. I kind of thought it might be bad, as I had to go in at 5:00 pm. Everyone knows traffic is bad then - it's called "rush hour". It's annoying, but people usually assume that it's going to take longer if you drive at rush hour, and plan accordingly.

The EB's schedule is 46 hours endpoint to endpoint. A 33% increase in duration would be about 15 hours late. The EB has been averaging about 8 hours late, or a 15% increase in the trip's length. So, the EB's delays are nothing compared to rush hour in the average city, or a moderately delayed plane.

This is where the "apples to apples" comparison is hard. First of all, airline or driving trips are usually only a few hours at most, so even doubling the journey's length is usually just a minor annoyance. But adding 10-15 hours to any trip is going to throw a monkey wrench in people's plans.

From what I've read, most commuters spend about 30 minutes in the car each way (that figure can double or more for cities like New York and Atlanta). But consider what would happen if they had "Amtrak-like" delays. Some days, the commute would only take 30 minutes, but on others, it would take 2 hours. Or 4 hours. Or 8 hours. And you never knew which kind of day you were going to have - it could be 30 minutes one day, then 4 hours the next, then back to 30 minutes... if that were the case, nobody would be able to commute. For most people, showing up for work 3 hours early or 3 hours late just isn't an option. It simply wouldn't work. If you KNEW your commute was going to be 3 hours every day, you could plan accordingly. It would suck, but you could make it work - many people do.

Amtrak is in the same boat now. I think the real problem isn't really the lateness, it's the NOT KNOWING. There has been a lot of discussion here about padding the EB's schedule, and how bad that would be because BNSF would never allow Amtrak to get the time back later, when conditions improve.

But from a passenger perspective, being so far off is extremely problematic. AU members and railbuffs probably know how long the EB's schedule is, and would notice a drastic change of 6-8 hours in either direction. But I think the average passenger doesn't care whether it's 40 hours or 52 hours - they either have several days to take the journey, or they don't. But they DO need to know what time they're going to arrive.

That's why I think that Amtrak must do SOMETHING to make the trains run ON TIME - either change the trains (which they can't control), or change the time (which they do).


----------



## mkeroad

Nice post DP, I was just on the EB East bound and we were about 6 hours late to Wisconsin. I had been sitting all day with a couple that had a connection in CHI with a 6 hour window. They were anxious to make this because of a very sick grand child and a wedding.

If you are stuck in traffic it may be 1 or2 hours max, but, if you miss a connection with a 6 hour window that window just goes to 24 hours.


----------



## XHRTSP

Any ideas on what the average OTP is now a days? I'm looking at a possible opportunity to do the EB SEA to CHI in about three weeks. At $417 that seems like a good deal. That train is numero uno on my wish list and has been there for years and years.


----------



## greatcats

One could work out an average figure, but it is hard to say how each trip will turn out. About the only constant is that the eastbound train seems to do a little better going through the congested area on weekends. It has been anywhere from two hours to six hours or more late recently. I believe the heavy winter weather has abated in that area. The eastbound train yesterday was about three hours late into Chicago. Book the trip if this is a good deal for you and enjoy the ride Just make no plans for the evening when arriving Chicago. It is a great ride, and it is a shame what has happened to this train's performance, which used to be quite reliable. Hope that you g et the dining car crew headed by Timmy.


----------



## XHRTSP

Booked. I already have the poster, so I guess I'm just fulfilling prophecy. Yes, I'll go with that excuse, don't judge me.


----------



## montana mike

Just look at that extra 4+ hours as an additional "bonus" from Amtrak and BNSF!!

)


----------



## XHRTSP

montana mike said:


> Just look at that extra 4+ hours as an additional "bonus" from Amtrak and BNSF!!
> 
> )


Not a problem for this trip. If I get to Chicago really late I'll just get a hotel and jumpseat home in the morning. Schedule shouldn't be a factor.


----------



## trainman74

Saw a Facebook friend's status update in which she was frustrated and confused trying to check Amtrak.com for a train from Spokane to Miami. I replied explaining the EB situation and suggested calling 1-800-USA-RAIL to talk to a live person about her options. I think her main frustration stemmed from Amtrak.com's "sorry, we cannot find train service matching your request" error message, which is not particularly user-friendly, especially for a situation such as this.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

"Thank you for help Amtrak, as a reward we going to send you 1 AGR point for doing our job."

A fake msg from Amtrak.


----------



## Paperwing

This is the reason I will be packing a few extra provisions for our trip!


----------



## yarrow

a moderator can stick this in trip reports if need be but it sure illustrates the bad luck of the eb. went spk-pdx today. left spk the about average 3 hours late. lost another hour due to freight congestion the first few hours, then lost an hour and a half when a freight in front of us broke a knuckle and we had nothing to do but wait for a repair, then just before bridge of the gods we lost an hour due to someone "lying on the track claiming to be moses" and law enforcement had to talk him off the track. then as we entered washougal(about 30 minutes from pdx)the conductor announced "welcome to washougal, washington; your crew is out of hours". a little over 30 minutes waiting for a crew to taxi out from pdx. beautiful day in the columbia gorge, the train crew was very pleasant and fed us twice for free. no complaints here just another average 376 miles for the eb


----------



## SarahZ

Paperwing said:


> This is the reason I will be packing a few extra provisions for our trip!


We always do, even on trains with good OTP. When I get hungry and my blood sugar drops, I'm like a honey badger combined with a Dalek.


----------



## neroden

D.P. Roberts said:


> Amtrak is in the same boat now. I think the real problem isn't really the lateness, it's the NOT KNOWING.


A very rough rule of thumb that I use is that you have to plan your trip based on the 5th percentile perfomance. In other words, if you're later than you expected 5% of the time, and earlier than expected 95% of the time, that's OK. But if you're later than you expected 20% of the time or more, you have a problem. I think a lot of people do something similar, even if they don't compute it out -- maybe based on different percentiles (1st percentile, 10th percentile, whatever).
People riding Amtrak (who know about the 40-year history of delays) generally add on some amount of time to the schedule to get their personal expected "fifth percentile" or "worst likely case" runtime -- maybe using AmtrakDelays or something similar.

For the LSL, for example, you can usually assume it'll be no more than 3 hours late; anything worse than that happens quite rarely, less than 5% of the time. Even at 3 hours late, the LSL has times which are fairly competitive with driving. After all, you have to include such expectations-of-lateness into your driving time estimates, too, due to traffic, weather, etc.

The trouble is, given the EB's current performance, if you base your plan on the 5th percentile performance, you're talking something like 15 hours late -- maybe more! -- and that starts to be extremely uncompetitive with anything.

Another way of putting this is that people will blow off the occasional "disaster". So the LSL is 24 hours late one day of the year -- people write it off as a unique, one-off event. But if a bad event is happening frequently enough -- and 1 out of every 10 times is frequently enough -- then people start treating that as something they have to expect and plan for.



> There has been a lot of discussion here about padding the EB's schedule, and how bad that would be because BNSF would never allow Amtrak to get the time back later, when conditions improve.


----------



## Blackwolf

(Reposted from the CS-EB non-connection thread.)

The sound of making yet another of Amtrak's trains a three-a-week route makes me cringe. Lets say they do go down that path and the Empire Builder becomes the Sunset Limited North. How much would you want to bet the moment Amtrak wishes to go back to a daily train, BNSF pulls a Union Pacific and says "that'll be $700+ Million." The capacity of the route would have increased, but the amount of freight would have also have risen in the same amount of time. BNSF could simply point and say "we don't have room for a re-established daily train" and use that as their cause for more money. Or, just flat-out refuse to host Amtrak at all.

Cue the "Slippery Slope" warning signs. :help:


----------



## montana mike

Just looking at today's #7 as it treks thru ND I see they lost 6 hours trying to work thru the heavy freight traffic. Ouch!!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

mkeroad said:


> Nice post DP, I was just on the EB East bound and we were about 6 hours late to Wisconsin. I had been sitting all day with a couple that had a connection in CHI with a 6 hour window. They were anxious to make this because of a very sick grand child and a wedding.


At some point the onus is on the traveler to reevaluate their plans after months of routine delays and perpetual dysfunction. At this point if someone chooses to take an Empire Builder connection to a wedding then they're basically saying they really don't care if they arrive on time or not. Trick me once, shame on you. Trick thousands of people hundreds of times, shame on them.


----------



## mkeroad

D A

I was sitting with Amish that I met on the CZ wb and we met again on the EB e bound 11 days later. How much fun was that! I'm sending them pics. They have no way of looking at schedules. Very nice family


----------



## Texan Eagle

Devil's Advocate said:


> At some point the onus is on the traveler to reevaluate their plans after months of routine delays and perpetual dysfunction. At this point if someone chooses to take an Empire Builder connection to a wedding then they're basically saying they really don't care if they arrive on time or not. Trick me once, shame on you. Trick thousands of people hundreds of times, shame on them.


So you're saying every passenger traveling on EB should come to AU months before their trip and see this discussion thread to realise EB runs notoriously delayed regularly? Even after the mess going on for so long, the Amtrak site says *nothing at all* about EB having severe punctuality issues. Its easy to say as a railfan that oh there are third party sites that you can check to see historic performance, but as a casual passenger, you can't expect everyone to be doing that. When I book a flight, I don't go digging into databases to see how many times in the last three months the flight gets delayed. Some airlines are gracious enough to mention this in the booking page itself, for example Southwest has a note like "74% on-time" next to every flight you are given to choose.

Edit: Amtrak's Service Alerts page also has zero mention of anything being wrong with Empire Builder. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Texan Eagle said:


> So you're saying every passenger traveling on EB should come to AU months before their trip and see this discussion thread to realise EB runs notoriously delayed regularly? Even after the mess going on for so long, the Amtrak site says *nothing at all* about EB having severe punctuality issues. Its easy to say as a railfan that oh there are third party sites that you can check to see historic performance, but as a casual passenger, you can't expect everyone to be doing that. When I book a flight, I don't go digging into databases to see how many times in the last three months the flight gets delayed. Some airlines are gracious enough to mention this in the booking page itself, for example Southwest has a note like "74% on-time" next to every flight you are given to choose. Edit: Amtrak's Service Alerts page also has zero mention of anything being wrong with Empire Builder. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?


This is what Amtrak provides...

On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.


----------



## montana mike

That 11% has to be route wide. I don't believe it has arrived on time in CHI in many months!!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Texan Eagle said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> At some point the onus is on the traveler to reevaluate their plans after months of routine delays and perpetual dysfunction. At this point if someone chooses to take an Empire Builder connection to a wedding then they're basically saying they really don't care if they arrive on time or not. Trick me once, shame on you. Trick thousands of people hundreds of times, shame on them.
> 
> 
> 
> So you're saying every passenger traveling on EB should come to AU months before their trip and see this discussion thread to realise EB runs notoriously delayed regularly? Even after the mess going on for so long, the Amtrak site says *nothing at all* about EB having severe punctuality issues. Its easy to say as a railfan that oh there are third party sites that you can check to see historic performance, but as a casual passenger, you can't expect everyone to be doing that. When I book a flight, I don't go digging into databases to see how many times in the last three months the flight gets delayed. Some airlines are gracious enough to mention this in the booking page itself, for example Southwest has a note like "74% on-time" next to every flight you are given to choose.
> 
> Edit: Amtrak's Service Alerts page also has zero mention of anything being wrong with Empire Builder. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?
Click to expand...

I agree with this. "Fool me once" applies to first-time Amtrak riders, whether or not they come to AU first. I've seen "guest" postings here from first-time riders who paid for coach & thought they would get a bed because it was overnight, and people who paid for roomettes thinking they'd get a bedroom, & many other crazy expectations. All that stuff is on the Amtrak website, & anywhere else you care to look.

However, if I have a ticket that says I'll arrive in Chicago at 3:55 pm, I'd expect that the train will arrive somewhere around 3:55 pm. Sure, planes are sometimes late, and I'd expect that the average first-time Amtrakian is probably going to assume that trains are pretty much like airplanes - sometimes late, but usually on time. The first time passenger isn't going to do some digging to find out whether the train is usually eight and a half hours late (like now) any more than he or she is going to check and see whether the food in the dining car will give you botulism.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is what Amtrak provides...
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.


Sure it says it arrives on-time 11% of the time, but it doesn't say *anything about HOW damned late the train has been*. The train could be reaching Chicago 20-30 minutes late everyday due to minor congestion/platform issues which is not so bad from a practical perspective and still have a miserable 11% on-time numbers.

What would be useful is Amtrak putting a small box breaking down HOW much delayed EB is getting, something that Southwest Airlines does for all of its flights-

*Flight # 2098*

% Ontime Arrival 84.7%

% > 30 Minutes Late 7.6%

% Cancellations 0%

Average Delay Time 8.9 Minutes

If Amtrak gives such clear information at the time of booking, and then passengers complain about delays, I would probably agree with your fool me once theory, but without it, there is no way poor passenger is supposed to know what mess they are getting into.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Then there's the problem that everyone on an airplane is getting on and getting off at the same destinations. Most people on a train aren't riding endpoint to endpoint, so the number for every intermediary combination will entirely different.

And that's just arrivals, let alone all the on time (or not on time) departures. I can easily imagine a scenario where someone actually finds amtrakdelays.com to research a CHI-MSP trip, and sees that train 7 has been making it to MSP only an hour late. No biggie, he thinks, and he goes on his way - without bothering to find out that train 8 is averaging almost seven hours late LEAVING MSP for his return trip...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Texan Eagle said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Amtrak provides...
> 
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it says it arrives on-time 11% of the time, but it doesn't say *anything about HOW damned late the train has been*. The train could be reaching Chicago 20-30 minutes late everyday due to minor congestion/platform issues which is not so bad from a practical perspective and still have a miserable 11% on-time numbers.
> 
> What would be useful is Amtrak putting a small box breaking down HOW much delayed EB is getting, something that Southwest Airlines does for all of its flights-
> 
> *Flight # 2098*
> 
> % Ontime Arrival 84.7%
> 
> % > 30 Minutes Late 7.6%
> 
> % Cancellations 0%
> 
> Average Delay Time 8.9 Minutes
> 
> If Amtrak gives such clear information at the time of booking, and then passengers complain about delays, I would probably agree with your fool me once theory, but without it, there is no way poor passenger is supposed to know what mess they are getting into.
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be great to have and I hope Amtrak considers adding it. Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.


----------



## jebr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.


Yes, if being exactly on-time is important to someone, they should look at the on-time performance. But Amtrak doesn't make it particularly obvious to find on-time performance, and if I'm thinking that an hour or two late isn't a big deal, I may not think to look closely at the on-time performance. It's not unreasonable for someone to expect a mode of transportation to generally keep schedule and most days arrive at their destination (whether midway along the route or at the train's endpoint) relatively on-time, give or take an hour or two.

Thankfully, Amtrak has wised up and put an alert when purchasing the tickets. Here's what I get when I try and purchase a ticket:







When clicking on the alert, I get this text:



> Empire Builder Trains 7/27/807 and 8/28/808: Service Restored at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
> Effective March 1, 2014Amtrak is in continuing talks with BNSF Railway Company, which owns, maintains and dispatches the tracks used by the Empire Builder between St. Paul, MN, and the West Coast. In addition to the daily Amtrak trains, BNSF has very high volumes of freight train traffic that have often delayed Amtrak service.
> 
> BNSF will allow the Empire Builder to travel on its regular route in both directions in North Dakota, restoring normal service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby. This eliminates the practice of detouring the westbound Empire Builder and requiring some Amtrak passengers to transfer to and from chartered buses.
> 
> BNSF has additional capacity improvements to be carried out this construction season. This work is expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.
> 
> Amtrak delays due to freight train interference continue to be likely on the Empire Builder's route between Chicago and Seattle or Portland.
> 
> As with all transportation modes, passengers should check for delays before heading to their boarding locations. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.
> 
> Like us on facebook.com/Amtrak and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak. Check out our blog at blog.amtrak.com.
> 
> PSN 0214-43


Unfortunately, the key point to passengers is buried in a single paragraph halfway through the text, and the title makes no mention of the delays. It's better than no alert, but ideally Amtrak would put the delay issue more front-and-center (while still hoisting the blame for the delays on BNSF.) When a train averages delays of many hours the vast, vast majority of the time, the customer should be made easily aware of the issue, and so far I'm not sure Amtrak is living up to that expectation.


----------



## montana mike

jebr said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, if being exactly on-time is important to someone, they should look at the on-time performance. But Amtrak doesn't make it particularly obvious to find on-time performance, and if I'm thinking that an hour or two late isn't a big deal, I may not think to look closely at the on-time performance. It's not unreasonable for someone to expect a mode of transportation to generally keep schedule and most days arrive at their destination (whether midway along the route or at the train's endpoint) relatively on-time, give or take an hour or two.
> 
> Thankfully, Amtrak has wised up and put an alert when purchasing the tickets. Here's what I get when I try and purchase a ticket:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When clicking on the alert, I get this text:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Empire Builder Trains 7/27/807 and 8/28/808: Service Restored at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
> Effective March 1, 2014Amtrak is in continuing talks with BNSF Railway Company, which owns, maintains and dispatches the tracks used by the Empire Builder between St. Paul, MN, and the West Coast. In addition to the daily Amtrak trains, BNSF has very high volumes of freight train traffic that have often delayed Amtrak service.
> 
> BNSF will allow the Empire Builder to travel on its regular route in both directions in North Dakota, restoring normal service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby. This eliminates the practice of detouring the westbound Empire Builder and requiring some Amtrak passengers to transfer to and from chartered buses.
> 
> BNSF has additional capacity improvements to be carried out this construction season. This work is expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.
> 
> Amtrak delays due to freight train interference continue to be likely on the Empire Builder's route between Chicago and Seattle or Portland.
> 
> As with all transportation modes, passengers should check for delays before heading to their boarding locations. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.
> 
> Like us on facebook.com/Amtrak and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak. Check out our blog at blog.amtrak.com.
> 
> PSN 0214-43
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, the key point to passengers is buried in a single paragraph halfway through the text, and the title makes no mention of the delays. It's better than no alert, but ideally Amtrak would put the delay issue more front-and-center (while still hoisting the blame for the delays on BNSF.) When a train averages delays of many hours the vast, vast majority of the time, the customer should be made easily aware of the issue, and so far I'm not sure Amtrak is living up to that expectation.
Click to expand...

I think Amtrak is worried that if they say travelers can expect to see 4-6 hour delays in arrival times at SEA/PDX or CHI and many intermediate stops that would cause some potential customers to not buy a ticket on the Empire Builders. I would have also made it clear to all readers that the delays were large enough that NO same day connections in CHI are guaranteed. You are right though it is a start. Interestingly, if you look out into the summer months (July and beyond) no such alert exists. if anything, the summer is likely to see more slowdowns with the massive amount of work to be done on the tracks and the arrival of the 5000 additional tanker cars!


----------



## montana mike

Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.


----------



## greatcats

They would really be in a ( discontinued ) pickle if they had abandoned the line through Devils Lake. Instead, Amtrak is abandoning pickles but hopefully not the train. ( Did this make any sense? )


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.


This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.


----------



## OBS

greatcats said:


> They would really be in a ( discontinued ) pickle if they had abandoned the line through Devils Lake. Instead, Amtrak is abandoning pickles but hopefully not the train. ( Did this make any sense? )


That's funny...


----------



## D.P. Roberts

EB_OBS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.
Click to expand...

*Neither of you are correct, as the Amtrak site clearly indicates that these warnings are only in effect through May 31st. Beginning June 1, you can book a trip on the EB without seeing the warning. So, Amtrak clearly knows that the lateness & construction problems will be over by then, and people traveling on the EB will have trouble-free trips this summer! Yay!!!!**

*Sarcasm on

**Sarcasm off


----------



## greatcats

Thanks. I thought it was a Lamy- er- lame attempt at sophisticated humor.


----------



## tim49424

D.P. Roberts said:


> *Sarcasm on
> 
> **Sarcasm off


If only the small print wasn't necessary.


----------



## montana mike

LOL

Looking at today anything but laughs:

#7 has lost over 7 hours going thru the "gauntlet"

#8 is now around 6 hours behind.

Brutal.....


----------



## andersone

D.P. Roberts said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Neither of you are correct, as the Amtrak site clearly indicates that these warnings are only in effect through May 31st. Beginning June 1, you can book a trip on the EB without seeing the warning. So, Amtrak clearly knows that the lateness & construction problems will be over by then, and people traveling on the EB will have trouble-free trips this summer! Yay!!!!**
> 
> *Sarcasm on
> 
> **Sarcasm off
Click to expand...

i am not sure i would be eating that Wilbur,,, or for the jNW fans,,, be careful sipping the purple Kool Aid,,,,


----------



## Paperwing

For us, I know our trip is in August. I've been using the text msg program I read about on a thread here that you simply text your train# and city and you get back an instant report of that days arrival/departure. I've been checking that way for a random few days here so I can very roughly see how that line does from day to day. Of course that will in no way determine the times for the day of travel, but still interesting to check here and there.


----------



## montana mike

#7 this AM in WA is now over 8 hours late. Things are getting worse, not better. #8 in MN is running over 4 hours behind, about average for the mess in ND.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is what Amtrak provides...
> 
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.


I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.

And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!


----------



## JoeBas

D.P. Roberts said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Amtrak provides...
> 
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.
> 
> And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!
Click to expand...

Well think about it, if it weren't for all those pesky passengers, they wouldn't have to run at all, hence would NEVER be late!


----------



## montana mike

A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....

If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.

Just musing over how well some things can still work..........


----------



## Nobody in Particular

"If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.


----------



## neroden

D.P. Roberts said:


> I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%?


For reference, "passenger" usually means "we had to dig out the wheelchair lift, because like idiots we do not have level boarding yet".


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nobody in Particular said:


> If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.


Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.

I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.


----------



## jebr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Nobody in Particular said:
> 
> 
> 
> If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
Click to expand...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Try again.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.


Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.


----------



## montana mike

Nobody in Particular said:


> "If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.


Not at all. If you know anything about commerce, both are in the transportation business. Both face many of the same challenges in moving their products/customers' goods from point A to Point B. All I was trying to point out that one firm finds a way to be one time almost every time-and still makes money at it. Granted Amtrak is at the mercy of a third party-big issue, but that doesn't automatically mean they should not strive to achieve the same results as FedEx.


----------



## Ryan

FedEd has a diverse way of getting things from point A to point B.

Amtrak has 1.

Big difference.


----------



## montana mike

jebr said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody in Particular said:
> 
> 
> 
> If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
> 
> Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.
Click to expand...

It was fedEx GROUND (NOT their expedited service). If I had wanted to pay an extra $15 I could have had the package the next morning!! If I really wanted to be greedy and shell out additional big $$ I could have gotten it that same evening. I ship a lot of FedEx ground pieces from our office in ROC, NY to WFH over the course of the year and we routinely get the packages in 2-3 days. If I take the LSL from ROC, change in CHI to the EB then go to WFH it is about the same time (assuming the EB is on schedule--LOL). My point was not to equate the timing, but the fact that FedEx delivers their products on time, almost all of the time. And at any given time they have literally millions of articles in their "system". Of the hundreds of packages we have sent to our offices and clients over just this past year, perhaps a couple didn't make it as scheduled, and we got a full refund for these miscues no questions asked!!

Nothing deep or sinister here, just a whimsical look at two different, yet in a way, similar transportation modes......


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody in Particular said:
> 
> 
> 
> If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
> 
> Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was fedEx GROUND (NOT their expedited service). If I had wanted to pay an extra $15 I could have had the package the next morning!! If I really wanted to be greedy and shell out additional big $$ I could have gotten it that same evening. I ship a lot of FedEx ground pieces from our office in ROC, NY to WFH over the course of the year and we routinely get the packages in 2-3 days. If I take the LSL from ROC, change in CHI to the EB then go to WFH it is about the same time (assuming the EB is on schedule--LOL). My point was not to equate the timing, but the fact that FedEx delivers their products on time, almost all of the time. And at any given time they have literally millions of articles in their "system". Of the hundreds of packages we have sent to our offices and clients over just this past year, perhaps a couple didn't make it as scheduled, and we got a full refund for these miscues no questions asked!!
> 
> Nothing deep or sinister here, just a whimsical look at two different, yet in a way, similar transportation modes......
Click to expand...

My "interesting point" comment was more pointed towards the "suffering because Amtrak is unionized" claim that DA was making (or bringing up,) not the general claim about FedEx.

think it's worth looking at FedEx and seeing why it's able to make commitments or transport packages as fast as it does and see if there's anything that Amtrak can pull from it. However, FedEx has a lot of differences from Amtrak as well (able to use road, rail, or air (if needed to make the time commitment,) not having to wait at a location if they're early, etc.) so an argument that if FedEx can make things run on time Amtrak can do the same is an ill-advised argument since Amtrak has different variables and restrictions to work with than FedEx does.


----------



## montana mike

Life is indeed full of variables. But there is a lesson to be learned here........


----------



## jebr

I'm not sure what that lesson is, though. Obviously meeting commitments is a big thing, and Amtrak should find a way to do that whenever possible. But Amtrak is also hamstrung by a couple things that FedEx isn't, the sum of which makes Amtrak late (and thus Amtrak can't "learn" how to fix these issues by looking at FedEx):

1. Amtrak, for the most part, must use train travel along the route. They do have the option to use buses, but many customers will be displeased with that option and demand a partial or full refund simply because they were transported by bus (even if they make it to their destination on time.) With FedEx, the package can take any transportation option (rail, road, air, and whatever other options that I have missed) and as long as it makes the deadline and arrives in the same condition it was shipped in, no one cares what method of transportation was used.

2. Building off of 1, Amtrak is not only limited to rail travel, it's limited to rail travel on a specific route, which in the case of the Empire Builder the owner is basically telling Amtrak that it can't run on-time and that it will be 4-6 hours late most days. Amtrak can't use a different route either, so they basically have the option to either just grin and bear it, drop the route, or lengthening the schedule (if the owner of the rails allows it.) With the latter option, Amtrak also has to make sure that they have some sort of clause to go back to the original time once the delays end unless they want to have the lengthened schedule indefinitely.

3. Amtrak, if they arrive to an intermediate point on their route early, cannot leave until the time they're scheduled to leave. FedEx can deliver a package earlier than promised and not have to stay at the customer's location until the committed time before they leave. Amtrak doesn't have that luxury.


----------



## JoeBas

Not to mention packages can get slapped around, tossed about, and generally abused while En Route, while passengers frown upon such treatment.

In most cases.


----------



## Nobody in Particular

And is "Devil's Advocate" not himself wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows?


----------



## RalphCT

montana mike said:


> A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....
> 
> If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.
> 
> Just musing over how well some things can still work..........


Does FedEx tell you to the minute what time the package will arrive? When I order by Fedex or UPS they tell me the day and give me something like a 4-6 hour window. That's kind of like the Empire Builder. Most of the time Amtrak can tell you when you will arrive within 6 hours of your scheduled arrival time.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## Ryan

Nobody in Particular said:


> And is "Devil's Advocate" not himself wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows?


Actually he's not. All 5,400 of his posts are under the same account, so we know who he is. We know his name, and several people have met him in person.

Contrast that with you, we have no idea if this is your first post or your thousandth or what those other posts contain. We have no idea who you are.


----------



## montana mike

RalphCT said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....
> 
> If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.
> 
> Just musing over how well some things can still work..........
> 
> 
> 
> Does FedEx tell you to the minute what time the package will arrive? When I order by Fedex or UPS they tell me the day and give me something like a 4-6 hour window. That's kind of like the Empire Builder. Most of the time Amtrak can tell you when you will arrive within 6 hours of your scheduled arrival time.
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
Click to expand...

Actually, as business we get great service. For overnight items the packages arrive between 9-10 AM the next day just about every time and for most of the others it is indeed a several hour window (usually 10 AM to about 2 PM). So I guess you are indeed right that Ground service is closer to the Empire Builder arrival times.


----------



## XHRTSP

How much do you think FedEx would charge if you shipped something the weight and volume of a human plus luggage, and demanded it have enough space and amenities to be comfortable during the journey?


----------



## yarrow

from a new thread on TO: 4/15-5/31 the eb will leave sea 3 hours earlier and pdx 3 hours 5 minutes earlier


----------



## JoeZeppy412

Wonder how on time Fedex would be if they had to ship their packages on UPS trucks?


----------



## tim49424

yarrow said:


> from a new thread on TO: 4/15-5/31 the eb will leave sea 3 hours earlier and pdx 3 hours 5 minutes earlier


Is there any explanation on TO as to what the reasoning for the changes is? Is Amtrak doing some OTP study to see if it is worth making it permanent or just simply to accommodate track work?


----------



## montana mike

Well, if they keep this schedule until all of the track work is done we are looking at 2+ years worth of schedule changes--which, as we all know might become "permanent". All Amtrak is doing is admitting the Empire Builder's run from SEA/PDX is now at least 3+ hours longer. I asked my BNSF contacts about this change this evening. Will let all know their comments if/when I receive something. Glad to see this confirms they will need to keep the extra train set going on this route, since there would be zero chance for any on time departures from the west coast without it. So looking at the new reality for us in WFH, this means a 0430 AM arrival going eastbound and somewhere around 10:30 to 11 PM arrival going westbound (although based on the last 30 days of delays I think more realistically still way after midnight) from now until some date in the future--bummer, but it is what it is...


----------



## NW cannonball

What we don't know -- will the earlier schedule help BNSF fit the Builder thru the gauntlet faster? That depends on BNSF dispatching strategy, (and man they need the best they can get with so many delayed freights waiting all along the hi-line)

The earlier departure might actually help BNSF speeding the Empire Builder -- but no way to know.

We will have to wait and see.


----------



## montana mike

i just received my "new" reservations from Amtrak, confirming the much earlier arrival time in WFH (4:30 AM) and the later arrival returning from the east (10:26).

Even with the longer day time hours in May the ride thru GNP will be mostly in the dark now, bummer.....


----------



## tomfuller

_Any schedule changes west of MSP? Will this mean a greater chance of making a connection in Chicago?_


----------



## jebr

It looks like the eastbound Builder is scheduled to leave three hours early and start adding padding at MOT (80 minutes,) FAR (70 minutes,) and MSP (30 minutes) in order for the Builder to arrive at MSP at the old scheduled time of 7:05 AM.

I haven't done the math for the westbound Builders yet.


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF guy got back to me. Interestingly, there was evidently long and animated discussions between BNSF and Amtrak on the continuing issues on the Hi-Line. BNSF had recommended a 4 hour "adjustment" in the schedule BOTH ways, but Amtrak chose a more conservative approach. As I said yesterday, while this is certainly more realistic, given the situation and the fact that congestion will likely get worse rather than better over the coming months I would not be surprised if a further schedule adjustment is forthcoming after the end of the May 31st timeframe. Time will tell. I am on one of these Builders in May and will see firsthand how well we make it thru the "gauntlet" (btw-the BNSF people now call that stretch just that. Some times they have 20+ trains in that area just trying to get thru. It is a real dispatcher's nightmare at times).


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> I am on one of these Builders in May and will see firsthand how well we make it thru the "gauntlet" (btw-the BNSF people now call that stretch just that.


i have heard amtrak folks call it "the bermuda triangle"


----------



## andersone

With all due respect to MM - I think the Fed Ex comparison is rather specious. Getting a book or a piece of cheese from A to B is a lot different than getting Mar & Pa Kettle from A to B.


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am on one of these Builders in May and will see firsthand how well we make it thru the "gauntlet" (btw-the BNSF people now call that stretch just that.
> 
> 
> 
> i have heard amtrak folks call it "the bermuda triangle"
Click to expand...

Or the "Dakota Triangle."


----------



## tim49424

I'm still wondering if these changes are temporary as there were dates (4/15-5/31) attached.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tim54449 said:


> I'm still wondering if these changes are temporary as there were dates (4/15-5/31) attached.


Did suspension of the Sunset East have dates as well or was it just TBD?


----------



## tim49424

Devil's Advocate said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering if these changes are temporary as there were dates (4/15-5/31) attached.
> 
> 
> 
> Did suspension of the Sunset East have dates as well or was it just TBD?
Click to expand...

I would have no clue. I am not familiar with that train.


----------



## Ryan

JoeZeppy412 said:


> Wonder how on time Fedex would be if they had to ship their packages on UPS trucks?


I'd like to nominate this post for the "Most insightful post by a poster with 5 posts or less". Well played.



Devil's Advocate said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering if these changes are temporary as there were dates (4/15-5/31) attached.
> 
> 
> 
> Did suspension of the Sunset East have dates as well or was it just TBD?
Click to expand...

I don't believe there were ever dates attached, I only recall ever seeing "indefinitely".


----------



## MrFSS

The first National Table after Katrina had this with the SSL Table:


----------



## tomfuller

I still don't understand if 27 is supposed to come into PDX about 11:30AM why it can't make a connection to the CS about 2:30PM.

If 28 leaves PDX 3 hour early it is expected into Fargo 30 minutes early from my research.

The other question is why it takes 1:20 in SPK to join the combined train.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tomfuller said:


> I still don't understand if 27 is supposed to come into PDX about 11:30AM why it can't make a connection to the CS about 2:30PM.
> 
> If 28 leaves PDX 3 hour early it is expected into Fargo 30 minutes early from my research.
> 
> The other question is why it takes 1:20 in SPK to join the combined train.


They only added an hour to the EB's scheduled arrival time, but they must realize that it was always later than that. On the westbound trip, they didn't change the EB's CHI departure time at all, so it's unlikely to change the EB's arrival time in PDX. For the past month, 27 has been averaging about six and a half hours late, or about 4:50 pm. Assuming that the delays continue, there's no way to restore the 27-11 connection unless 7/27 starts departing Chicago at noon or earlier.

Speaking of which, I don't see why they can't move the 7/27 departure earlier. There's still plenty of time to make the connections between the CL, LSL, and the EB, and I would think that most of the eastern EB route (like MSP) wouldn't mind getting in earlier. Is there some good reason for not moving the EB's departure?


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

To me BNSF needs to push this off to the government like NS did with the a crescent and heartland corridors. NS knows what they need to do. Berkshire Hathaway is running BNSF into the ground for profit and not investing in a hugely capital intensive industry.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

JoeBas said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Amtrak provides...
> 
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.
> And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well think about it, if it weren't for all those pesky passengers, they wouldn't have to run at all, hence would NEVER be late!
Click to expand...


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Amtrak provides...
> 
> On-Time Performance
> 
> February 2014: 11.6%
> 
> Last 12 Months: 22.0%
> 
> Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview
> 
> So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.
> And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well think about it, if it weren't for all those pesky passengers, they wouldn't have to run at all, hence would N
> 
> EVER be late!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Well due to the unfortunate fact that BNSF is nOw part part of a hugely dysfunctional mess running late is the least of the problem.


----------



## montana mike

If today's #8 performance thru ND is any indication of what will happen this Spring adding 3 hours to the schedule may not be enough.

Bummer


----------



## Phil S

I'm on Builder eastbound to CHI in a couple of weeks and wondering how the extra dinner is working. these days. Since it's a pretty regular event now, are they stocking food for it? If not, I'll plan on feeding myself but it'd be nice to know. Thanks.


----------



## amamba

WellTrained said:


> I'm on Builder eastbound to CHI in a couple of weeks and wondering how the extra dinner is working. these days. Since it's a pretty regular event now, are they stocking food for it? If not, I'll plan on feeding myself but it'd be nice to know. Thanks.


I have personally not been on the EB lately, but I was on the LSL that departed CHI on Wed night. The EB pulled into CHI across platform from the LSL around 9 pm. Several folks hopped on board and I was chatting with a few at the wine tasting. The sleeper pax told me that they did NOT get dinner on the EB that day and they were very upset and hungry.


----------



## montana mike

I last several times I arrived arrived 3-5 hours late in CHI on the Builder, they also did not serve dinner either. I think they will have to be really, really late now.


----------



## jebr

When the Builder I was on was especially late (10 hours) they served supper to all passengers. Sleeper car passengers received selections from the diner menu (not sure what, exactly) and passengers were served Dinty Moore beef stew over rice with bread rolls and a drink (milk, juice, coffee, or water.) I personally didn't mind the Dinty Moore, and was glad they gave us something.


----------



## Phil S

Thanks folks. Sounds like time for some cheese, sausage, snail tracks, and chocolate. I'm spending the night at Loop Hotel, then east on #50 the next day. Should be "interesting".


----------



## TraneMan

On my last trip, they offered Beef stew, and it was 5 hours late.. that was around the 3-4 time frame.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Phil S

I said this before, after which everything went to hell in a hand basket, so I won't say it again. But anyone noticed any improvement for both #7 and #8 in the last few days?


----------



## CHamilton

Another mudslide at Mukilteo will mean bustitution for the EB between Seattle and Everett.


----------



## EB_OBS

WellTrained said:


> Has anyone noticed any improvement for both #7 and #8 in the last few days?


Honestly, from my perspective, it's still a complete craps shoot.


----------



## CHamilton

Trackwork in WA state will also affect 27/28.

BNSF making improvements in the [Columbia] Gorge



> BNSF Railway is in the midst of major upgrades of its rail lines across the nation, including in Washington, with improvements now underway on the heavily used Columbia River Gorge rail segment....
> Seattle-based spokesman Gus Melonas....won't disclose its spending on the Columbia River Gorge segment in Washington.
> 
> Last year, the railroad spent $125 million along the Columbia River segment and it's likely that spending will be even higher this year. Melonas characterized the railroad's planned spending on track improvements in Washington as "a significant amount."
> 
> The work between Vancouver and Wishram, 90 miles to the east, will include a replacement of the 106-year-old Washougal River bridge east of Camas. That work begins this year and will be mostly finished by the end of next year, Melonas said...
> 
> As for system improvements, the most expansive upgrades in Washington this year will take place between Pasco and Spokane. Improvements to that segment will include new double-tracking in some areas, Melonas said.


----------



## CHamilton

Meanwhile, CP grain shippers are moving to BNSF in search of better service!

Canadian Pacific shifts to BNSF



> FARGO -- Railroad performance for agriculture isn’t improving, and shippers served by Canadian Pacific Railway are growing more concerned their locomotives and crews are going to the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway in the U.S.
> The weekly BNSF report indicates 16,761 rail cars were running an average of 23.4 days late as of March 21. This is an increase of 10.1 and 11.9 percent, respectively, from the previous report issued March 12.
> 
> Meanwhile, complaints of railroad delays on the Canadian Pacific Railway are escalating, although there is no report similar to BNSF’s to tally late cars.
> 
> Steve Strege, executive vice president of the North Dakota Grain Dealers Association, says he hasn’t heard this much “disgust” over a topic in years.
> 
> Keith Brandt, manager of Plains Grain & Agronomy in Enderlin, N.D., says his facilities are about two months behind on open car orders with CP, either for singles or shuttle trains of 100 cars or more....
> 
> Brandt has heard reports that CP has as many as 200 locomotives running on BNSF or other Class One railroads in the U.S., which reduces its own fleet. There is always some “power trading” among railroads, as they intersect, he says, but recently CP seems to be doing more providing than usual.


----------



## montana mike

EB_OBS said:


> WellTrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone noticed any improvement for both #7 and #8 in the last few days?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, from my perspective, it's still a complete craps shoot.
Click to expand...

Back to "normal". Today's #8 in MN is well over 5 hours behind and even #8 in MT is running just under 2 hours late before reaching any of the worrisome areas. And 7/27 are about 4 hours behind as well.


----------



## CHamilton

My friend in MSP, who is scheduled to take the EB on Friday, says:



> We have a snowstorm barreling down on us, due to arrive here Thursday night into Friday. If the storm were being transported via BNSF, it wouldn't get here until next week.


That's the funniest thing I've heard all day


----------



## Railroad Bill

CHamilton said:


> Meanwhile, CP grain shippers are moving to BNSF in search of better service!
> 
> 
> Canadian Pacific shifts to BNSF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FARGO -- Railroad performance for agriculture isn’t improving, and shippers served by Canadian Pacific Railway are growing more concerned their locomotives and crews are going to the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway in the U.S.
> The weekly BNSF report indicates 16,761 rail cars were running an average of 23.4 days late as of March 21. This is an increase of 10.1 and 11.9 percent, respectively, from the previous report issued March 12.
> 
> Meanwhile, complaints of railroad delays on the Canadian Pacific Railway are escalating, although there is no report similar to BNSF’s to tally late cars.
> 
> Steve Strege, executive vice president of the North Dakota Grain Dealers Association, says he hasn’t heard this much “disgust” over a topic in years.
> 
> Keith Brandt, manager of Plains Grain & Agronomy in Enderlin, N.D., says his facilities are about two months behind on open car orders with CP, either for singles or shuttle trains of 100 cars or more....
> 
> Brandt has heard reports that CP has as many as 200 locomotives running on BNSF or other Class One railroads in the U.S., which reduces its own fleet. There is always some “power trading” among railroads, as they intersect, he says, but recently CP seems to be doing more providing than usual.
Click to expand...

We certainly see a lot of CN and some CP locos running around down here in Ohio. Perhaps we should give them directions back to Canada..


----------



## CHamilton

EB passengers will continue to be bussed between Seattle and Everett through Friday morning.


----------



## Paulus

In the first quarter of FY14, the Empire Builder arrived on time in Chicago 1.1% of the time. Which means only once.


----------



## CHamilton

BNSF Sees Bakken-Area Rail Tie-Up Lasting Until Year-End




> BNSF Railway Co., the carrier owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., will need the rest of 2014 to untangle train tie-ups in the corridor that serves North Dakota’s Bakken shale region.
> 
> A system-wide traffic jam, caused by surging grain and crude-oil volumes coupled with harsh weather, is being resolved on the southern lines linkingChicago and Los Angeles, Chief Executive Officer Carl Ice said yesterday in an interview at the railroad’s headquarters in Fort Worth,Texas....
> 
> Ice’s forecast underscored the scope of the recovery effort for U.S. railroads after winter storms and rising cargo shipments disrupted operations. BNSF sent 300 additional crew members to its northern region and plans to add 500 locomotives and 5,000 railcars this year to help ease the snarls, Ice said.


----------



## Phil S

EB_OBS said:


> WellTrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone noticed any improvement for both #7 and #8 in the last few days?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, from my perspective, it's still a complete craps shoot.
Click to expand...




montana mike said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WellTrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone noticed any improvement for both #7 and #8 in the last few days?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, from my perspective, it's still a complete craps shoot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Back to "normal". Today's #8 in MN is well over 5 hours behind and even #8 in MT is running just under 2 hours late before reaching any of the worrisome areas. And 7/27 are about 4 hours behind as well.
Click to expand...




Paulus said:


> In the first quarter of FY14, the Empire Builder arrived on time in Chicago 1.1% of the time. Which means only once.



The craps shoot comment I buy. Anything can still happen and often does. As for "back to normal", that's not what I said. On-time once, yes, but that's not a very important stat. 30 minutes late would be just as good as on time. Any way to get average delay, say by week, w/o slogging through the data inn say jb's amstatus files?

All that said, it does look better today than it has in a while. So - is anything getting better or are we just throwing better craps? Did some work get finished? Has the weather helped (but just wait until the snow starts really melting!)? Has BNSF traffic dropped even a little?

IAC, I head out E on the 14th and am looking forward to the trip. Taking every precaution I can - food, drink, lots to read, booked hotel in CHI rather than try to make connection to #50. And, yes, it still beats flying, if you have the time and $.


----------



## yarrow

CHamilton said:


> BNSF Sees Bakken-Area Rail Tie-Up Lasting Until Year-End
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Railway Co., the carrier owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., will need the rest of 2014 to untangle train tie-ups in the corridor that serves North Dakota’s Bakken shale region.
> 
> A system-wide traffic jam, caused by surging grain and crude-oil volumes coupled with harsh weather, is being resolved on the southern lines linkingChicago and Los Angeles, Chief Executive Officer Carl Ice said yesterday in an interview at the railroad’s headquarters in Fort Worth,Texas....
> 
> Ice’s forecast underscored the scope of the recovery effort for U.S. railroads after winter storms and rising cargo shipments disrupted operations. BNSF sent 300 additional crew members to its northern region and plans to add 500 locomotives and 5,000 railcars this year to help ease the snarls, Ice said.
> 
> 
> 
> i understand that bnsf is doing infrastructure improvement on the hi-line due to deteriorated and inadequate infrastructure. the problem became acute with the increase in traffic and it is that congestion which is primarily causing the delays. how then does adding 500 locos and 5000 cars help "ease the snarls"?
Click to expand...


----------



## montana mike

My local BNSF guys got a real chuckle out of Mr. Ice's statements. They ALL said that internal BNSF communications are clear that it will be late 2015 when all of the infrastructure improvements needed are in place. And they said the winter impacts, while notable, were actually slightly less than in several recent winters. Yes, it was cold and the cold caused some serious delays, but the entire Hi-Line area had slightly below normal snowfall and overall the winter pattern was not one of the worst events in their memory banks.

As they have said over and over, it's mostly about traffic and sheer numbers of trains, which have increased consistently, without a corresponding increase in the trackage to cope with the increases.

BTW-#7 pulling into SEA about 3 hours late and #8 looks like it will be over 4 hours behind into CHI today (after being well over 6 hours late yesterday). Bummer.


----------



## George Harris

yarrow said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Sees Bakken-Area Rail Tie-Up Lasting Until Year-End
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Railway Co., the carrier owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., will need the rest of 2014 to untangle train tie-ups in the corridor that serves North Dakota’s Bakken shale region.
> 
> A system-wide traffic jam, caused by surging grain and crude-oil volumes coupled with harsh weather, is being resolved on the southern lines linkingChicago and Los Angeles, Chief Executive Officer Carl Ice said yesterday in an interview at the railroad’s headquarters in Fort Worth,Texas....
> 
> Ice’s forecast underscored the scope of the recovery effort for U.S. railroads after winter storms and rising cargo shipments disrupted operations. BNSF sent 300 additional crew members to its northern region and plans to add 500 locomotives and 5,000 railcars this year to help ease the snarls, Ice said.
> 
> 
> 
> i understand that bnsf is doing infrastructure improvement on the hi-line due to deteriorated and inadequate infrastructure. the problem became acute with the increase in traffic and it is that congestion which is primarily causing the delays. how then does adding 500 locos and 5000 cars help "ease the snarls"?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Notice also there was 300 additional crew members. If things are tied up due to congestion, then the crews go dead on the law and are not available for another train until they have completed their mandated rest. That is where additional crews help. If things are tied up due to congestion, then the engines are not available for another train until they have completed the run they are on and been serviced. That is where additional engines help. If things are tied up due to congestion, then cars don't complete their trip and get unloaded as fast, or if empty get taken to the point where they are needed to be loaded as fast, so they are not available for another train thus it takes more cars to move the same amount of traffic. That is where moe cars help. And then there is the point that there is more traffic out there that needs to be moved.

What was not said in the part quoted is that BNSF is adding more sidings and sections of second main along the hi-line. This will enable the line to handle more trains and have less delay. Adding track is expensive. It is. or has been in the past, an out of pocket expense, as you can't get a loan on something that can't be reposessed. Grading can't be repo'ed. Bridges, culverts, and other drainage work is also unretreivable expense beyond the scrap value of steel in bridges. This may not be worth doing given that there are steel bridges on abandoned lines sitting out there rusting into oblivion. Track materials can be, but it is near pointless, as the labor to install can't be repo'ed and the material value is reduced by the labor to remove it. There might be such a thing as buying rail on credit, but the rest of the new track is essentially sunk expense. Saying all this to say that generally adding track is something that is done after all that can be done otherwise has been. It takes eliminating a lot of delay cost to justify spending money on additional trackage.


----------



## NW cannonball

CHamilton said:


> BNSF Sees Bakken-Area Rail Tie-Up Lasting Until Year-End
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Railway Co., the carrier owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., will need the rest of 2014 to untangle train tie-ups in the corridor that serves North Dakota’s Bakken shale region.
> 
> A system-wide traffic jam, caused by surging grain and crude-oil volumes coupled with harsh weather, is being resolved on the southern lines linkingChicago and Los Angeles, Chief Executive Officer Carl Ice said yesterday in an interview at the railroad’s headquarters in Fort Worth,Texas....
> 
> Ice’s forecast underscored the scope of the recovery effort for U.S. railroads after winter storms and rising cargo shipments disrupted operations. BNSF sent 300 additional crew members to its northern region and plans to add 500 locomotives and 5,000 railcars this year to help ease the snarls, Ice said.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the BNSF "company line" as Ice related it to Bloomberg.

How can BNSF get another 500 locos before year end? They are already, by many reports, and my own observation joyriding the Northstar and just watching the rails near here, they are begging, borrowing, and leasing whatever they can get for power. Ancient NS livery last-generation-but-two road engines, for example.

And the backlog of trains parked all across the Hi-Line -- maybe BNSF can relocate crews short-term, and hire rookie engineers and conductors medium-term -- and in a year or two have trained crews on the district.

Maybe BNSF can get new locomotives, but not 500 before year-end.

Thinking that last years roadbed improvements will help a bit, when they get the new crews trained, and the leased - borrowed power will help.

Maybe intensive training for the dispatchers in Fort Worth, and better software, might help the congestion.

But "Improved by end of year" would be a total misreading. "Not improved before end of 2014" would be a better interpretation.


----------



## yarrow

George Harris said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Sees Bakken-Area Rail Tie-Up Lasting Until Year-End
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF Railway Co., the carrier owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., will need the rest of 2014 to untangle train tie-ups in the corridor that serves North Dakota’s Bakken shale region.
> 
> A system-wide traffic jam, caused by surging grain and crude-oil volumes coupled with harsh weather, is being resolved on the southern lines linkingChicago and Los Angeles, Chief Executive Officer Carl Ice said yesterday in an interview at the railroad’s headquarters in Fort Worth,Texas....
> 
> Ice’s forecast underscored the scope of the recovery effort for U.S. railroads after winter storms and rising cargo shipments disrupted operations. BNSF sent 300 additional crew members to its northern region and plans to add 500 locomotives and 5,000 railcars this year to help ease the snarls, Ice said.
> 
> 
> 
> i understand that bnsf is doing infrastructure improvement on the hi-line due to deteriorated and inadequate infrastructure. the problem became acute with the increase in traffic and it is that congestion which is primarily causing the delays. how then does adding 500 locos and 5000 cars help "ease the snarls"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Notice also there was 300 additional crew members. If things are tied up due to congestion, then the crews go dead on the law and are not available for another train until they have completed their mandated rest. That is where additional crews help. If things are tied up due to congestion, then the engines are not available for another train until they have completed the run they are on and been serviced. That is where additional engines help. If things are tied up due to congestion, then cars don't complete their trip and get unloaded as fast, or if empty get taken to the point where they are needed to be loaded as fast, so they are not available for another train thus it takes more cars to move the same amount of traffic. That is where moe cars help. And then there is the point that there is more traffic out there that needs to be moved.
> 
> What was not said in the part quoted is that BNSF is adding more sidings and sections of second main along the hi-line. This will enable the line to handle more trains and have less delay. Adding track is expensive. It is. or has been in the past, an out of pocket expense, as you can't get a loan on something that can't be reposessed. Grading can't be repo'ed. Bridges, culverts, and other drainage work is also unretreivable expense beyond the scrap value of steel in bridges. This may not be worth doing given that there are steel bridges on abandoned lines sitting out there rusting into oblivion. Track materials can be, but it is near pointless, as the labor to install can't be repo'ed and the material value is reduced by the labor to remove it. There might be such a thing as buying rail on credit, but the rest of the new track is essentially sunk expense. Saying all this to say that generally adding track is something that is done after all that can be done otherwise has been. It takes eliminating a lot of delay cost to justify spending money on additional trackage.
Click to expand...

thanks, george


----------



## XHRTSP

Dumb question, but do or did any locos ever have crew rest compartments like certain long haul airliners, whereas an augmented crew could work well beyond the normal limits?

Hell, does Amtrak even do that?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Nope.

It seem rest on the train is not permitted. Passenger and Frieght trains does not matter.

Only on a Truck can a co-driver get rest while moving down the road.


----------



## mwmnp

FYI, here is a chart of the weekly petroleum carload numbers on the BNSF network. Overall the count has been pretty flat the last four months.


----------



## montana mike

Two reasons: They lack additional cars (to be remedied beginning in May) and the lack of additional crew and engines to pull the cars (TBD as to when this issue will be resolved).

The rise will continue once these issues are resolved--and BNSF knows it!!


----------



## CHamilton

Commentary from the Seattle Transit Blog.



> The Empire Builder runs rather well here in Washington..., and we shouldn’t let miseries in the upper Midwest deter us from seeking better service across our state. This new schedule will have the (accidental but pleasant) effect of giving Spokane decent eastbound service, with a 9:00pm arrival time. (Westbound will get worse, however, with a 3:45am departure.)
> 
> Meanwhile, on this side of the Cascades, we have 7 trainsets making only 13 daily runs, an overcapitalized and underused fleet that awaits the completion of the Point Defiance Bypass and other projects. I would love to see WSDOT fund a temporary pilot project to give daily roundtrip service to Spokane through 2017 using one of those surplus sets, just to give Eastern Washington a taste of intercity travel that is better than either uncomfortable buses or unreliable trains. If the train performed poorly, we could cut it. If it performed well, we could fund it.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Nope.
> 
> It seem rest on the train is not permitted. Passenger and Frieght trains does not matter.
> 
> Only on a Truck can a co-driver get rest while moving down the road.


One of the insane anti-rail rules promulgated by the FRA, the Federal Prevention of Railroads Administration as I occasionally call it.


----------



## montana mike

Ah, I remember the oft used quote: We are from the federal government and we are here to help you! Every once in a while common sense prevails, but perhaps not in this case!

Today's trains: Pretty much status quo, with both #7 in WA and #8 in MN well over 4 hours behind schedule. It would appear the three hour "jumpstart" will help the east bound trains arrive within 1-2 hours of the schedule in CHI, but the 90 minute adjustments going westbound may not be sufficient to achieve on time arrivals in SEA and PDX. Time will tell.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> It seem rest on the train is not permitted. Passenger and Frieght trains does not matter.
> 
> Only on a Truck can a co-driver get rest while moving down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the insane anti-rail rules promulgated by the FRA, the Federal Prevention of Railroads Administration as I occasionally call it.
Click to expand...

That's not insane at all. Did you forget about the necessity of qualifying on all territory that you operate on?


----------



## Ryan

You're going to have to connect the dots there, because I don't see what one has to do with the other.


----------



## Paulus

RyanS said:


> You're going to have to connect the dots there, because I don't see what one has to do with the other.


Sleeping on trucks makes a certain degree of sense because you can just swap out and a drivers license permits driving anywhere in the US. Not so for trains, the crew will need to be qualified on all territory that they might be reasonably expected to operate if sleeping aboard the train and swapping out similar to a truck. The manpower requirements remain the same, but now there's a significantly increased training cost. That's on top of a definitely worsened crew rest with possible safety issues as well.


----------



## Ryan

In the context of the EB, where massive delays are common, having a second crew available on the train available to take over when the original operating crew dies on the law.

Since the relief crew would be in their home territory, they'd obviously be qualified.


----------



## Bruce-C

Not a single poster has mentioned that Amtrak (or any company for that matter) will be paying for that second crew for the entire journey. Where are they going to get the money for that!


----------



## neroden

Paulus said:


> Sleeping on trucks makes a certain degree of sense because you can just swap out and a drivers license permits driving anywhere in the US. Not so for trains, the crew will need to be qualified on all territory that they might be reasonably expected to operate if sleeping aboard the train and swapping out similar to a truck.


You don't see anything wrong with this picture? It's a massive regulatory bias in favor of trucking and against railroads.
Perhaps you can argue that sleeping on trucks should be illegal, that commercial drivers' licenses shouldn't carry over from state to state, and that commercial truck & bus drivers should have to "qualify on all territory that they might reasonably be expected to operate".

I could totally believe that, given incidents like the Megabus driver killing a bunch of his passengers by going through a bridge which his bus didn't fit under.

If you're not going to argue that, then it's obvious that this stuff about "qualifying on the territory" for trains should be abandoned. The engineers don't steer the train, the dispatcher does. When PTC is implemented, the engineers won't even be necessary in order to follow the speed limits. Frankly, the engineer needs to know very little about the territory if it's signalled properly. Engineers are pretty close to *obsolete*, actually, with fully automated trains pretty much a solved technology. Yes, yes, "handling the slack action" -- that can be programmed too, and probably will be in the next few years.

I'd much, much rather have an unqualified train engineer on a line with PTC than some random guy with a CDL driving around a state he doesn't know well. The unqualified train engineer would be *less dangerous* than the guy cruising around in the truck.

But forget that. When trains are not running on schedule, the cost of qualifying crews on a lot of territory has to be a lot less than the cost of having "extra boards" for every X-hundred mile territory in case the train is late and the crew runs out of hours.

If the trains all ran on time and all the engineers and conductors lived next door to the train station, it would be different -- and frankly, that's the way it was in the 19th century when these obsolete rules were established.

Frankly, even the hours of service rules are whacky. Obviously there should be a limit on the number of hours of continuous service -- but 12 hours is way too long, and obviously an artifact of the railroads fighting to *not* have relief crews. On a very long run, three crews taking turns every 8 hours would be the sort of operation which the military or an ordinary business would understand. With the current system, the Empire Builder uses more crews than that on any given train.... and if I'm not mistaken, has to pay them something for "waiting around" time as well.


----------



## George Harris

Neroden: I agree that there is a certain amount of regulatory bias in favor of trucking, but for the most:

There is no equivalence for several of the other points.

As a basis for many of the differences: Driving on the road, regardless of what you are driving is a line of sight activity. In many of its aspects operating a train is not. That is the basis for the need for signals, for starts.

The magabus strike against a low overpass is an example of failure of the driver to properly react to something he should have seen. If he did not see it, there was one of two things at play: Either the bus was higher than he thought it was, which would have been a serious error on his part. Or, the low overpass was not marked as standards require, which would be an error on the part of the state or whoever maintained the road. Another thing: There are commercial drivers road atlases that mark things of significance to drivers of large vehicles that are not of significance to automobile drivers, with low overhead clearances being one of them.

Qualifying for the territory is a necessity because of the line of sight issues for starts. Another point is the nature of the grades, particularly with long freight trains. If you have a long freight train it could be spread over two or three grades. Improper train handling will result in slack action that can give you broken knuckles or harsh slack action that could damage freight. These are just a couple of examples. Some of the engineers that visit here could probably come up with a page or two of reasons for the need for qualification by territory. Remember also, most of the railroad lines were initially built over 100 years ago. They do not begin to have the nice consistency that roads have.

People have been chasing the concept of "unmanned operation" for quite a few years in the transit world. So far the reality says don't do it. Several years back now there is an outstanding example of a WMATA operator that was directed to keep his train in automatic operation after requesting to be allowed to go manual more than once. He would have lost his job if he had done so anyway. He bet his life on the screw-ups being done by the automatic system not being too serious and lost. I want a functional coherent human being in the front of any train I am riding.

The unqualified on the territory train engineer might be "less dangerous" than the truck driver on a road he does not know, but that is not saying a lot when you consider the relative accident ratios. By the way, most truck and bus drivers do run the same territory over and over normally, so they do become quite familiar with their normal territories.

Maintaining an "extra board" has no cost. Train crews do not get paid if they are not called.

The 12 hour limit is the law. It is not a standard or normal practice, it is THE LAW. It is the norm for a normal run to be well under 8 hours. You cannot rationally set the allowable maximum and the standard in the same place. If you do everything to the legal maximum, then anything out of whack lead to either legal violations or trains sitting out n the line dead on the law. By the way, in past years the legal limit was 16 hours. It was well the norm during WW2 that crews would be out on the road for their 16 hours and then being called out again "on their rest."


----------



## mjaynes288

George Harris said:


> Maintaining an "extra board" has no cost. Train crews do not get paid if they are not called.


I thought people on the extra board had a minimum garuntee. They are garunteed pay for a certain number of hours even if they are never called.


----------



## greatcats

I would agree with mjaynes about guarantees. As a former crew dispatcher, I recall there was a guarantee. It wasn't always that way and it may differ from one company to another, according to the agreement, but it went something like this: A crew member was guaranteed 40 hours pay if they were available for work for an entire seven day period. If they were only called for three or four days work and they had not absented themselves by marking off or missing a call, then the crew member would be entitled to forty hours pay. If the work was too slow and the extra board became too large, then the company could cut the size of the extra board. Much of the time the extra board was a place to make good money if the work was busy and the opportunity to make well over 40 hours was common. Probably those BNSF crews are cleaning up on this situation.


----------



## fairviewroad

FWIW, both 7 and 27 arrived in SEA/PDX less than an hour late this morning.

The revised schedule may help turn the 4 hour delays into 3 hour delays, but on days when things go well, it will mean a lot of extra sitting

around in stations waiting for the timetable to catch up. The folks on these trains would still not have arrived (as of this writing).


----------



## montana mike

fairviewroad said:


> FWIW, both 7 and 27 arrived in SEA/PDX less than an hour late this morning.
> 
> The revised schedule may help turn the 4 hour delays into 3 hour delays, but on days when things go well, it will mean a lot of extra sitting
> 
> around in stations waiting for the timetable to catch up. The folks on these trains would still not have arrived (as of this writing).


You need to remember these trains were traveling over the weekend. According to the BNSF folks for whatever reason the EBs tend to do a little better on Saturdays and Sundays, thus the Monday arrivals for both East and westbound trains tend to be better. I would venture to guess looking at weekday traffic the extra 90 minutes will be closer to average delays going west bound. They were just barely under an hour late, by a few minutes-If you take the 90 minutes of "extra" time being added to the schedule that doesn't leave a lot of room for any other delays.

I would like to hope things will improve so that the original schedule can be reinstated, but the construction season has yet to begin in earnest.


----------



## George Harris

mjaynes288 said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maintaining an "extra board" has no cost. Train crews do not get paid if they are not called.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought people on the extra board had a minimum garuntee. They are garunteed pay for a certain number of hours even if they are never called.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. Was of the impression that this was not so in the past, at least.


----------



## Chicagorailroader

depends on the company, NS for instance has no guarantee for conductors but engineers have one.


----------



## neroden

George Harris said:


> Qualifying for the territory is a necessity because of the line of sight issues for starts.


You just pointed out that trucks are operated on line of sight and trains aren't...
I understand that in "dark territory" the engineer basically has to know where everything is, and in "roadside signal" territory the engineer has to at least know where the signals are, and with manual switches the engineer has to know where the switches are. My point was regarding PTC-controlled automated lines.



> Another point is the nature of the grades, particularly with long freight trains. If you have a long freight train it could be spread over two or three grades. Improper train handling will result in slack action that can give you broken knuckles or harsh slack action that could damage freight.


That'll be automated within a few years.



> These are just a couple of examples. Some of the engineers that visit here could probably come up with a page or two of reasons for the need for qualification by territory. Remember also, most of the railroad lines were initially built over 100 years ago. They do not begin to have the nice consistency that roads have.


You think roads have "nice consistency"? You don't know JACK about roads.
The roads in my area were upgraded incrementally from Revolutionary-era bridle paths. They have less than no consistency.

Rail lines have *massive* consistency and their characteristics (clearances, suitable speeds, etc.) are *much* more accurately documented compared to roads.



> People have been chasing the concept of "unmanned operation" for quite a few years in the transit world. So far the reality says don't do it.


Docklands Light Rail. Case closed. Problem solved. Unmanned operation in the transit world Just Plain Works. (Also, Vancouver SkyTrain.)

Of course, people are uncomfortable having the train unmanned, so there's a "train captain" -- a.k.a. a conductor. Who can also watch for trespassers and fallen trees and hit the "stop" button. No driver/engineer, though.



> Several years back now there is an outstanding example of a WMATA operator


WMATA has a defective train control / cab signal system. It wasn't designed failsafe, unbelievably. BART had the same bug (literally, they bought the same signalling system from the same vendor) and BART fixed it. WMATA failed to fix it for 30 more years, despite knowing that their "sister agency" had fixed it. There is something seriously wrong with the safety culture at WMATA. This all came out in a recent disaster.



> The unqualified on the territory train engineer might be "less dangerous" than the truck driver on a road he does not know, but that is not saying a lot when you consider the relative accident ratios.


Well, that was really my entire point!

The crash rates on trucks and buses are *very high* compared to the rates on trains. Allowing a much less safe method of operation is a subsidy to trucking.

I feel generally unsafe on intercity buses. The drivers are generally extremely unprofessional. I've been on a bus where the driver ripped off the mirror of a neighboring truck by passing too close. (I saw the truck driver writing the license plate number of the bus down, so presumably that guy got reported to the police.) I've been on buses which were speeding by quite a lot. I've been on buses with aggressively rude drivers. This is among multiple carriers.

I've been on a few intercity buses with solid, professional, competent drivers, but they seem to be the exception. On passenger trains, the average conductor seems to be much better, despite Amtrak's reputation for inconsistent service. (And of course I never meet the engineer -- but they don't speed.)

Most city bus drivers in most cities seem to be better, though I've seen some awful ones.



> By the way, most truck and bus drivers do run the same territory over and over normally, so they do become quite familiar with their normal territories.


Yeah, but they aren't "required to be qualified on the territory". And they go on detours without being "qualified" and without having pilots. I know atlases exist... but they don't look at them.

As I say, perhaps they should be required to be qualified.

They don't necessarily know their equipment. Just so you know, the Megabus driver who slaughtered his passenger in Syracuse did not know how tall his bus was. The bridge he crashed into was marked.

However, it's also worth noting that overhead bridges on minor roads are NOT required to be marked and are often not marked. Once you're off the main road, anything can happen...



> By the way, in past years the legal limit was 16 hours. It was well the norm during WW2 that crews would be out on the road for their 16 hours and then being called out again "on their rest."


Thanks for the historical detail.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Whatever....

Driving commercial since 1996. With over 2 million safe miles driven. Almost ever week finding myself at a new location for a pick up, or deliver.


----------



## George Harris

Just-Thinking-51; Yes, I know that is reality. I have relatives that drive trucks. However, I also know that from the same that in the long distance trucking world 90% plus oof their miles are on roads they drive multiple times, so even thought there is not qualification on the territory as on the railroads, familiarity develops. Professionalism is knowing your limitations and driving accordingly.

Neoroden: I can see that discussing these points with you is a waste of time. Much of what you said in your most recent post seems to in general be in line with what I said.

As to the New York State road system, I can see somewhat where you are coming from. I have driven in New York State. ONCE. That was enough. However, New York is not the world, and the general thrust in road design and construction is to deal with the difficult locations, and even in New York there is more money to spend on road problem areas than the most flush of railroad companies will ever see. Just from what I say on my drive across the state I do wonder where it is being spent.

Megabus is not Greyhound or any of the other legitimate bus companies.

This conversation is getting well of the subject, so I will stop my part of it with this.


----------



## TraneMan

Wonder what's going on with #8 today? It left MSP just over 2 hours late, and been sitting at this location for a while.

Wonder if fright issues? My partner was going to CHI for a gathering, but he didn't buy his tickets and watched it day by day, and he ended up driving down.




-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## neroden

George Harris said:


> As to the New York State road system, I can see somewhat where you are coming from. I have driven in New York State. ONCE. That was enough.


Ha.  And I live right in the middle of it and have to use it to get anywhere.

I do think we agree on most things.

It's worth noting that our NYS road system makes trains more attractive here than it does in, for instance, the "driver's paradise" of Texas. (Also, speed limit here -- still 55 except on freeways, 65 on some freeways.) Somehow this hasn't been leveraged to get us better trains, though.

Much of New England has similarly archaic roads, FWIW.


----------



## montana mike

Now well over 6 hours late. Something clearly happened in the MSP area to cause it to lose over 4 hours. Bummer.


----------



## Joe F

TraneMan said:


> Wonder what's going on with #8 today? It left MSP just over 2 hours late, and been sitting at this location for a while.
> 
> Wonder if fright issues? My partner was going to CHI for a gathering, but he didn't buy his tickets and watched it day by day, and he ended up driving down.


8(8) lost 4 hours between MSP and RDW today. Not sure what is going on.


----------



## tim49424

It's a shame that it's lost so much time as it was only a few minutes late out of Minot last night.


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> Now well over 6 hours late. Something clearly happened in the MSP area to cause it to lose over 4 hours. Bummer.


Asked one of the conductor of what happen, and he said "What didn't happen today?!"

Turns out that they got hammered just of MPS with freight. Then one had a car derail, and had to wait over 2 hours for that to get back on track. Then they were pushed back into siding at Duke, and had to wait for several freight.

He didn't have enough time to work 7 back so a crew been cabbed to replace them.


----------



## CHamilton

The PDF of the new EB schedule has been posted on the Amtrak website.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/954/441/Empire-Builder-Schedule-041514.pdf


----------



## tim49424

CHamilton said:


> The PDF of the new EB schedule has been posted on the Amtrak website.
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/954/441/Empire-Builder-Schedule-041514.pdf



Of course, this will be updated once the station in St. Paul opens.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Driving commercial since 1996. With over 2 million safe miles driven. Almost ever week finding myself at a new location for a pick up, or deliver.


Good for you. So you aren't one of the many truckers I see speeding, following too close, cutting people off, etc.

(I have noted that trucks with "How's My Driving? Call XXX-XXX-XXXX" stickers on them are almost always well driven. The companies which don't put the stickers on perhaps want to attract dangerous drivers, you think?)


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I don't appreciate the sniping of truck drivers as a profession, Nathaniel. I've driven trucks for my business, and have spent a lot of time in and out of truck stops because due to the (at the time) interstate nature of my business, I was bound by all the rules and regulations all the other truck drivers are bound by. And let me tell you the group that most hates, most despises, and absolutely would like to hang, draw, and quarter the shitty commercial drivers that have recently been entering the road- that being the vast majority of career truck drivers.

Most career bus drivers and a vast majority of career truck drivers are competent professionals who carefully and diligently do a job. They carefully study their route atlas or truck-specific navigation system, or use both. They know their routes very well, and don't get into trouble. They follow every rule, cross every T and dot every I in their manifest, log, and bill of lading. And you don't notice them, because they drive just fine. You only notice the idiots who have no business holding a CDL or operating a truck, or in some cases operating any motor vehicle at all.

They are very safety oriented, because contrary to common belief truck drivers do get hurt in accidents, and their primary goal is often to simply bring home their pay safely to their family.

You clearly don't understand the differences between truck driving and train operations, but they are huge. Qualifying a driver for a specific route is not practical, for one thing. Qualifying a train crew is both practical, and because of the nature of the the way trains operate, absolutely necessary.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Back to the topic of the EB - from what I remember, the new schedule is into effect through 5/31/14, even though I don't see that date printed on the schedule. It seems extremely likely that these changes will stay in effect after that date. So, since the new schedule breaks the 14-28 connection, how soon in advance will they post a version that goes into the summer? And when they do, assuming that the 14-28 connection is broken, what will they do for the passengers who are booked for those connections?

I know the new schedule doesn't technically go into effect until 4/15, but Amtrak is well aware of the problems on the EB route. It seems to me like the longer Amtrak waits to deal with these scheduling problems, the worse it's going to be trying to fix them.


----------



## tricia

D.P. Roberts said:


> Back to the topic of the EB - from what I remember, the new schedule is into effect through 5/31/14, even though I don't see that date printed on the schedule. It seems extremely likely that these changes will stay in effect after that date. So, since the new schedule breaks the 14-28 connection, how soon in advance will they post a version that goes into the summer? And when they do, assuming that the 14-28 connection is broken, what will they do for the passengers who are booked for those connections?
> 
> I know the new schedule doesn't technically go into effect until 4/15, but Amtrak is well aware of the problems on the EB route. It seems to me like the longer Amtrak waits to deal with these scheduling problems, the worse it's going to be trying to fix them.


FWIW: Just did a trial reservation on Amtrak's website for EB for late September, and it's showing the old arrival times (10:10AM into PDX).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

What it's worth? That and $2.50 will get you on the New York subway.


----------



## montana mike

For those interested in the Oil Patch issues in ND and how it will effect BNSF, et. al. this current article captures what is happening in this area and the extent and timelines for the Bakken development. Note these experts expect the production to peak at a max of 1.5 million barrels per month (currently at 1 million per month) within the next five years (interestingly, to be limited by weather (6 months of frigid conditions) and competition from TX), but for drilling to continue for more than 20 years (considering the average well life in ND is projected to be anywhere from 10-30 years this makes ND a long term production player to be sure). More importantly for rail travel, more oil will move by rail and these folks estimate that it will take up to 5 years for the railroads to sort things out on the Hi-Line, which is almost exactly what my BNSF contacts have been telling me: http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/431833/


----------



## tim49424

tricia said:


> FWIW: Just did a trial reservation on Amtrak's website for EB for late September, and it's showing the old arrival times (10:10AM into PDX).


This is because the changes "expire" at the end of May. After that, the schedule reverts back to the current one.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tim54449 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW: Just did a trial reservation on Amtrak's website for EB for late September, and it's showing the old arrival times (10:10AM into PDX).
> 
> 
> 
> This is because the changes "expire" at the end of May. After that, the schedule reverts back to the current one.
Click to expand...

I've tried several other "trial" trips, and while the schedule may revert, the 14-28 connection is still broken.


----------



## montana mike

I would be quite surprised to see them go back to the old schedule before the mess is cleared up in ND. Without that 3 hour "cushion" the eastbound EBs would continue to arrive very late at night most of the time. At least they have a shot at getting in at a reasonable hour now.


----------



## rusty spike

D.P. Roberts said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW: Just did a trial reservation on Amtrak's website for EB for late September, and it's showing the old arrival times (10:10AM into PDX).
> 
> 
> 
> This is because the changes "expire" at the end of May. After that, the schedule reverts back to the current one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've tried several other "trial" trips, and while the schedule may revert, the 14-28 connection is still broken.
Click to expand...

And AGR will not reserve anything on a 14/28 same day connection before or *after May 31st.*


----------



## Tumbleweed

Can you still do the 28/14 overnight connection on your own dime?


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> I would be quite surprised to see them go back to the old schedule before the mess is cleared up in ND.


I agree. I only pointed out that the new schedule "expires" in late May to explain why trial (or actual) bookings show no changes beyond May 31, reverting back to the current schedule.


----------



## rusty spike

Tumbleweed said:


> Can you still do the 28/14 overnight connection on your own dime?


I would think so. The AGR rules read that an ongoing connection within 23 1/2 hours of the arriving train will be issued on the same reward, but hotel is at your expense.



> •Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tim54449 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be quite surprised to see them go back to the old schedule before the mess is cleared up in ND.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I only pointed out that the new schedule "expires" in late May to explain why trial (or actual) bookings show no changes beyond May 31, reverting back to the current schedule.
Click to expand...

But again, it shows the normal schedule, but won't allow 14-28 connections. If the normal schedule was actually in effect, there's no reason to block 14-28 connections anymore. So the current "ban" on 14-28 connections extends to some date beyond the current schedule change.


----------



## tim49424

D.P. Roberts said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be quite surprised to see them go back to the old schedule before the mess is cleared up in ND.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I only pointed out that the new schedule "expires" in late May to explain why trial (or actual) bookings show no changes beyond May 31, reverting back to the current schedule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But again, it shows the normal schedule, but won't allow 14-28 connections. If the normal schedule was actually in effect, there's no reason to block 14-28 connections anymore. So the current "ban" on 14-28 connections extends to some date beyond the current schedule change.
Click to expand...

I wasn't responding about 14-28 connections......I was talking about the EB schedule as a whole. I don't expect any connections will be restored at either end anytime soon.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tim54449 said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be quite surprised to see them go back to the old schedule before the mess is cleared up in ND.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I only pointed out that the new schedule "expires" in late May to explain why trial (or actual) bookings show no changes beyond May 31, reverting back to the current schedule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But again, it shows the normal schedule, but won't allow 14-28 connections. If the normal schedule was actually in effect, there's no reason to block 14-28 connections anymore. So the current "ban" on 14-28 connections extends to some date beyond the current schedule change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't responding about 14-28 connections......I was talking about the EB schedule as a whole. I don't expect any connections will be restored at either end anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Well, I can understand the connections between 27-11, and the outbound connections from 8 in Chicago, but what's wrong with the 14-28 connection? That's only a problem if 28 is still leaving 3 hours earlier than normal, correct?

I may not remember this correctly, but there was a lot of discussion on here when the 14-28 connection was broken (which happened right before the schedule change was announced) that an upcoming schedule change must be on its way, since there didn't appear to be a logical reason to break it (after all, the CS wasn't arriving late to PDX).

If the EB returns to its original schedule, people can still make the 14-28 connection. If the schedule remains changed, that connection stays broken. So, if Amtrak is 99% certain that people with existing 14-28 connections (who booked before it was broken) are going to be SOL, then the longer they wait to make the change official, the harder it will be to re-book everyone.


----------



## tomfuller

Any chance that Amtrak would go back to the bus connection that they used when the CS was often late? There were many months when they took connecting passengers from Klamath Falls north on US 97 getting to Pasco Washington to connect to the EB.


----------



## mikeschu

If everything goes well, I will be on the 14 tomorrow night, the 28 Sunday night and the 48 Tuesday night.

I'm already planning a 3-hour delay on the EB, which means I have a little time to get food outside of the train before boarding the LSL. Should I go ahead and book a night in CHI just in case there's a misconnect? Or will Amtrak take care of lodging?

Fortunately I'm in no rush to get to my destination; the forced layovers would hurt only the wallet.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

mikeschu said:


> If everything goes well, I will be on the 14 tomorrow night, the 28 Sunday night and the 48 Tuesday night.
> 
> I'm already planning a 3-hour delay on the EB, which means I have a little time to get food outside of the train before boarding the LSL. Should I go ahead and book a night in CHI just in case there's a misconnect? Or will Amtrak take care of lodging?
> 
> Fortunately I'm in no rush to get to my destination; the forced layovers would hurt only the wallet.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


As to the hotel, it depends on how & when you booked your ticket. If you booked 14-28-48 in one booking, as one ticket, then yes, it's considered a "guaranteed connection" and Amtrak should take care of a hotel overnight & probably put you on the train the next day (or, depending on your ultimate destination, they may just put you on a bus).

However, if you booked each leg of the trip separately, then you're on your own.

As to the 3 hour delay - if you check out http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/ it will show you how late the EB has been lately. It has averaged about four and a half hours late, and it has arrived as much as 36 hours late in the last month or so. You're leaving on a Sunday, and it has been better on the weekends, so maybe it won't be that bad.

Good luck!


----------



## Phil S

Anyone know what happened to today's (4/11) #28? Lost time between PDX and VAN and then again after leaving VAN. Usually that part goes really smoothly.

Thanks, Phil


----------



## gn2276

tim54449 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW: Just did a trial reservation on Amtrak's website for EB for late September, and it's showing the old arrival times (10:10AM into PDX).
> 
> 
> 
> This is because the changes "expire" at the end of May. After that, the schedule reverts back to the current one.
Click to expand...

At the end of May the schedule will be looked at again and the schedule might be changed again.


----------



## tim49424

I am sure that the schedule will be tweaked a few times until they can get it right....including a change to accommodate the opening of SPUD.

Also, ending the suspension of connections on both ends is in the best interest of everybody involved.


----------



## mikeschu

D.P. Roberts said:


> mikeschu said:
> 
> 
> 
> If everything goes well, I will be on the 14 tomorrow night, the 28 Sunday night and the 48 Tuesday night.
> 
> I'm already planning a 3-hour delay on the EB, which means I have a little time to get food outside of the train before boarding the LSL. Should I go ahead and book a night in CHI just in case there's a misconnect? Or will Amtrak take care of lodging?
> 
> Fortunately I'm in no rush to get to my destination; the forced layovers would hurt only the wallet.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> 
> As to the hotel, it depends on how & when you booked your ticket. If you booked 14-28-48 in one booking, as one ticket, then yes, it's considered a "guaranteed connection" and Amtrak should take care of a hotel overnight & probably put you on the train the next day (or, depending on your ultimate destination, they may just put you on a bus).
> 
> However, if you booked each leg of the trip separately, then you're on your own.
> 
> As to the 3 hour delay - if you check out http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/ it will show you how late the EB has been lately. It has averaged about four and a half hours late, and it has arrived as much as 36 hours late in the last month or so. You're leaving on a Sunday, and it has been better on the weekends, so maybe it won't be that bad.
> 
> Good luck!
Click to expand...

All one ticket and an award, so I should be good to go then. It's my first transcontinental train trip and I did book a roomette the entire way. I've also been watching the delays the last couple of weeks, but not closely; I'm concerned but won't be worried if we beat the average.


----------



## mikeschu

WellTrained said:


> Anyone know what happened to today's (4/11) #28? Lost time between PDX and VAN and then again after leaving VAN. Usually that part goes really smoothly.
> 
> Thanks, Phil


Saw it left PDX 53 minutes late, which is quite unusual. No delay for the 14 into PDX yesterday afternoon either.


----------



## EB_OBS

WellTrained said:


> Anyone know what happened to today's (4/11) #28? Lost time between PDX and VAN and then again after leaving VAN. Usually that part goes really smoothly.
> 
> Thanks, Phil


Freight train hit a car.


----------



## Jimmy

Why does the link HERE go to page 2? Why not page 1 or 26? The logic for page 2 escapes me. Thanks!


----------



## PaulM

rusty spike said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you still do the 28/14 overnight connection on your own dime?
> 
> 
> 
> I would think so. The AGR rules read that an ongoing connection within 23 1/2 hours of the arriving train will be issued on the same reward, but hotel is at your expense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> •Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

But isn't the problem here that 28 to 14 is no longer a PUBLISHED connection. You can do it with an overnight in PDX with the multi-city option. But AGR doesn't recognize them.

For some reason I thought that back when AGR made a big noise clarifying the rules that overnights would be permitted when there was no reasonable connection otherwise. The example given was #6 to #11.

FWIW, if NYP to ELP with a layover in NOL is published, there is no reason why MSP to SAC with a layover in PDX isn't.


----------



## rusty spike

I just made a 14/28 connection between LAX & WFH which as of April 1st is no longer a same-day "published" connection. but AGR permitted the next-day connection on the same redemption.

I am not returning on the same route, but that would be a 27/11 connection from WFH to LAX. I was not sure what you mean by a "28 to 14" connection--I was thinking you meant 27/11 since you llisted MSP to SAC as your endpoints. I haven't a clue what AGR would permit, under their "clarified" rules. What is AGR's definition of a "published route"? Those published in the timetables, or is it created as a result of entering the two endpoints on Amtrak.com? Hopefully someone can clairify AGR's "clarification".


----------



## tricia

It'd be a huge help if the on-time-performance stats on Amtrak's website indicated HOW late the EB (and other trains) have been running over the past month and past year, either on average or in some sort of graph or table display. As it stands, only info offered is what percentage of the time the train arrives on time. Not so helpful for the EB these days. :wacko:

If anyone on this list has been compiling that data, at least for arrivals in PDX, Seattle, and CHI, and can easily share it here, I'm pretty sure a good many folks would very much like to see it.


----------



## montana mike

Go to here ( http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com ) and just plug in either PDX or SEA or CHI as the station and the corresponding train and you can see how poorly those trains have been doing.

For example #7 has been running an average of 131 minutes late into SEA over the past week. And #8 running over 300 minutes late into CHI during the same time frame.

Since these delays mirror almost exactly what BNSF has told Amtrak they should expect for most of 2014, I would say they are very good indications of performance for any planned trip this year. With the addition of 90 minutes to the westbound schedule by adding a lot of padding thru ND, things should improve for #7/27 (ie. the trains arrival times in PDX and SEA will be "officially" 90 minutes later). The 3 hour bump going east is going to help, BUT, with average daily delays of over 6 hours I can't imagine that #8 will see very many "on time" arrivals, if any......and with the exception of the LSL and possibly the CONO, the EB will likely not be able to connect with any other trains out of CHI on a regular basis, even with the 3 hour earlier start times in PDX and SEA.

:-(


----------



## CHamilton

From a passenger on 8(12), posted to Facebook.



> Pole down across Hwy 2 caused eastbound to be 90 minutes late. Leavenworth is not bad place to hang out.


----------



## tricia

montana mike said:


> Go to here ( http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com ) and just plug in either PDX or SEA or CHI as the station and the corresponding train and you can see how poorly those trains have been doing.
> 
> For example #7 has been running an average of 131 minutes late into SEA over the past week. And #8 running over 300 minutes late into CHI during the same time frame.
> 
> Since these delays mirror almost exactly what BNSF has told Amtrak they should expect for most of 2014, I would say they are very good indications of performance for any planned trip this year. With the addition of 90 minutes to the westbound schedule by adding a lot of padding thru ND, things should improve for #7/27 (ie. the trains arrival times in PDX and SEA will be "officially" 90 minutes later). The 3 hour bump going east is going to help, BUT, with average daily delays of over 6 hours I can't imagine that #8 will see very many "on time" arrivals, if any......and with the exception of the LSL and possibly the CONO, the EB will likely not be able to connect with any other trains out of CHI on a regular basis, even with the 3 hour earlier start times in PDX and SEA.
> 
> :-(


Wow! Thanks for the link--really very helpful for anyone planning trip on EB in the months ahead. Knowing the likely range of "how late" makes contingency planning a lot more certain.


----------



## JayPea

From the More Things Change, the More They Stay the Same Dept.: The Spokane newspaper, the Spokesman-Review, has a feature in their Monday edition featuring photos of certain buildings from yesteryear and the same buildings today. This morning's article featured the Northern Pacific station from 1926 and today's Internal Center which includes Amtrak and Greyhound/National Trailways buses. The accompanying article said the NP reached Spokane from Seattle in 1881, and that President Ulysses S. Grant drove the Golden Spike for the transcontinental NP route in Montana in 1883. The train carrying the President and several dignitaries was scheduled to arrive in Spokane at 8AM on Sept. 9th, and an elaborate celebration was planned as the train made its way westward to Seattle. Instead, the train didn't get into Spokane until 7PM. 131 years later, nothing's changed. :lol:


----------



## lionelhoguy

I see that #7 EB from CHI to MSP was over two hours late into MSP yesterday April 13th, does anyone know why? I am taking the EB #7 from CBS to MSP on April 15th and I really do not want to get into MSP after 2am if possible.


----------



## lionelhoguy

I am still wondering if anyone knows why EB #7 was so late yesterday? Thanks,


----------



## lionelhoguy

It was a dead freight.


----------



## mwmnp

If you're looking for something to read, head on over to the Surface Transportation Board's website and have a look at all the filings made in the public hearing being held regarding "United States Rail Service Issues" such as the mess affecting the Empire Builder. Go to this page and search under Docket # EP-724-0 or enter "UNITED STATES RAIL SERVICE ISSUES" into the "Case Title" field. Expect the results to load very slowly.

Or, if you aren't interested in all the filings:


Here is Amtrak's testimony and presentation
Here is BNSF's presentation (I highly recommend looking at this one)
Apparently the only thing CP presented was this single slide about grain traffic


----------



## tricia

mwmnp said:


> If you're looking for something to read, head on over to the Surface Transportation Board's website and have a look at all the filings made in the public hearing being held regarding "United States Rail Service Issues" such as the mess affecting the Empire Builder. Go to this page and search under Docket # EP-724-0 or enter "UNITED STATES RAIL SERVICE ISSUES" into the "Case Title" field. Expect the results to load very slowly.
> 
> Or, if you aren't interested in all the filings:
> 
> 
> Here is Amtrak's testimony and presentation
> Here is BNSF's presentation (I highly recommend looking at this one)
> Apparently the only thing CP presented was this single slide about grain traffic


Thanks for posting this--especially the links to Amtrak's and BNSF's testimony.

Am I missing something, or is the only remedy (for decline in OTP) that Amtrak is suggesting here is that the government should pay attention to the stats that Amtrak gives them, and "ask" freight carriers to report to them how they're handling passenger trains?

Here's the relevant quote, at the conclusion of Amtrak's testimony:

"Amtrak services nationwide, and particularly the long
distance trains shown on this slide, are experiencing growing levels of delay on host railroads. If
this is not addressed, it will translate into significant impacts to our service, our passengers, and
our bottom line. We want to avoid that, and we prefer to address and fix this system-wide
problem by working cooperatively with our host railroad partners. We do, however, have an
obligation to provide the traveling public with the level of service mandated by the statute, and
we therefore believe that the STB could significantly assist us by monitoring the statistics
Amtrak publishes and asking the freight carriers to report periodically to the STB on their
handling of Amtrak trains. We believe this would help us to ensure that the public interest in a
safe, efficient and reliable intercity passenger rail service is safeguarded in the years to come."


----------



## montana mike

A good read! It least the info verifies what has been posted here by many people. BNSF clearly recognizes they are in a deep hole, but that it will take a couple more years to dig themselves out of that hole. I guess patience is the key.

:-(

PS-Some good news is that the Spring flooding appears to be much less than normal throughout most of the Hi-Line area


----------



## Ryan

Agreed.

Although the recent trend of all of the host roads treating Amtrak like crap is troubling.


----------



## Joe F

EB 8(15) is out of Havre only 20 minutes late, running on the new schedule.

I noticed that on the Dixieland status maps, 8 is showing up as 1008 when you hover the cursor over the marker (which still shows 8). Is this a new designation being used with the temporary schedule change? The PDF timetable on the Amtrak site still shows it as 8/28.


----------



## neroden

The host road CEOs need to be brought up on criminal charges for this. Or they could just be declared terrorists and thrown in Gitmo -- that's the way we do things these days isn't it? :-(


----------



## CHamilton

Joe F said:


> I noticed that on the Dixieland status maps, 8 is showing up as 1008 when you hover the cursor over the marker (which still shows 8). Is this a new designation being used with the temporary schedule change? The PDF timetable on the Amtrak site still shows it as 8/28.


I understand that "1008" is being used because there is still an 8 running on the old schedule that hasn't gotten to its destination yet. In a couple of days, once there are no longer two active trains on the same route with different schedules, that temporary designation will not be needed.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> The host road CEOs need to be brought up on criminal charges for this. Or they could just be declared terrorists and thrown in Gitmo -- that's the way we do things these days isn't it? :-(


What, you think that they're massively delaying their own freight trains just out of some weird spite for Amtrak? Canadian National and Canadian Pacific are facing significant fines because of their inability to move the grain harvest, the Empire Builder is just caught in the same mess as everyone else.


----------



## montana mike

Joe F said:


> EB 8(15) is out of Havre only 20 minutes late, running on the new schedule.
> 
> I noticed that on the Dixieland status maps, 8 is showing up as 1008 when you hover the cursor over the marker (which still shows 8). Is this a new designation being used with the temporary schedule change? The PDF timetable on the Amtrak site still shows it as 8/28.


The Eastbound EBs have been running pretty close to schedule thru much of MT, it is the eastern part of MT and most of ND where things go down hill rapidly. Number 7(15) is fairing terribly thru ND. Having lost well over 4 hours on the schedule so far. Amtrak only adjusted the westbound EB by 90 minutes, so this bears watching........sadly.


----------



## tim49424

CHamilton said:


> Joe F said:
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that on the Dixieland status maps, 8 is showing up as 1008 when you hover the cursor over the marker (which still shows 8). Is this a new designation being used with the temporary schedule change? The PDF timetable on the Amtrak site still shows it as 8/28.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that "1008" is being used because there is still an 8 running on the old schedule that hasn't gotten to its destination yet. In a couple of days, once there are no longer two active trains on the same route with different schedules, that temporary designation will not be needed.
Click to expand...

That would be with today's trains out of SEA/PDX which are back to being listed as 8/28.


----------



## TraneMan

Ok, 8 Made it in MOT early, and sat there for over 2 hours.. WOnder what was gong on?

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## mwmnp

I've gone through all of the filings that have been made to date in the public hearing being conducted by the Surface Transportation Board. Here are some excerpts that demonstrate the moods of some of the freight customers along the Empire Builder route.



> _BNSF's on-going service problems are estimated to cost United Sugars and its members tens of millions of dollars for the 2013 campaign.
> 
> Although BNSF has mostly attributed its service problems to a harsh winter, United Sugars believes there is a more fundamental cause. Average train speeds on the BNSF have been declining for more than one year. Average dwell time at BNSF terminals has been increasing since last summer. The winter of 2013/2014 was long and cold, but it seems clear that the poor BNSF service is much more than a "winter" problem. Given the decline in BNSF performance over the past year, and the ongoing surge in traffic on the railroad (oil, coal, intermodal), coupled with an even more aggressive capital program for 2014 (which can tend to slow trains), United Sugars harbors grave concerns that BNSF will not be able to quickly resolve its service problems and that those problems will be exacerbated once again next Winter._
> 
> -- United Sugars Corporation
> 
> _Although there have been recent signs of improving rail service, there is concern that this year's crop will not be moved before the new crop has to go into storage, which could create major problems during the upcoming 2014 harvest. There are reports of elevator operators storing millions of bushels of grain on the ground and refusing to buy more from farmers. Reports from North Dakota co-op managers indicate 85 percent of this year's corn crop is still in either onfarm or warehouse storage._
> 
> -- United States Department of Agriculture
> 
> 
> _The voluminous and very profitable PRB to PNW export coal traffic and the profitable Bakken oil traffic to the Pacific Northwest appear to be consuming most of the existing rail capacity, displacing Montana grain shippers and others, with the result of higher freight rates for other rail shippers and increasingly deteriorating service._
> 
> -- Montana Farmers Union
> 
> 
> _The last 6 months the BNSF has failed to deliver product to our 2 major Distribution Centers, one in Fridley MN and Hodgkins IL, both of these facilities are direct served by BNSF. Service times have taken as long as 33 days (normally 12 day transit). We have had several printers just cancel the order as we were totally unable to tell the printer when to expect the cars. Some of this paper is still sitting in the warehouse at our expense. We have had to move over 30 car loads to intermodal loads and pay for premium service. This extra 15 to 20% in transportation expenses has been crippling to our costs, not to mention the main carrier is JB Hunt who rides the BNSF trains and has also had service disruptions that adversely affected our customers. We have lost business due to our inability to timely service the Midwest._
> 
> -- West Linn Paper Company, Portland, OR
> 
> 
> _Although we remain concerned about coal deliveries to all of the Xcel Energy coal-fired plants, our comments are focused on rail service impacts on PRB deliveries to the Sherco generating station located roughly 45 miles north and west of Minneapolis, Minnesota. This station has three large coal fired generators, totaling just under 2,500 MWs of generating capacity. It is the third largest plant in the upper Midwest, and the tenth largest plant in the country...._
> 
> _This plant has single carrier rail service from the BNSF. Beginning in October of 2013, we saw a decline in coal deliveries to the Sherco station, receiving only 66% of the tons we nominated for delivery that month. This performance has continued through the first three months of 2014, with only 53% of the tons we nominated actually being delivered. The average train cycle times for deliveries of Wyoming and Montana PRB coal to the Sherco plant increased by over 50% for the first quarter 2014 versus first quarter 2013. From December 1st, 2013 to April 1st, 2014, the Sherco inventory has decreased by 771,000 tons, equal to 29 days of maximum bum. Substituting natural gas for coal is not an option at this station. It is essential that we restore our inventory to safe levels before the summer._
> 
> _-- _Xcel Energy
> 
> 
> _We recognize that the carriers and the Board have made some data concerning railroad service metrics available to the public and that BNSF has been taking steps to address its difficulties. However, we and our members do not believe that there has been full transparency as to the performance shortages, the underlying causes of those problems, the current level of service and related deficits, exactly what measures are being taken to address those problems, and the means by which the effectiveness of those measures may be evaluated and monitored. We ask the Board to address all of these areas._
> 
> -- American Public Power Association, Edison Electric Institute, National Association Of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, National Rural Electric Cooperative Association
> 
> 
> _Although we were being told that a substantial amount of delays were caused by abnormally cold weather and snow accumulation, it became increasingly clear that North Dakota agricultural commodities were not being given the same treatment as oil industry commodities. We believe railcars are prioritized as follo__ws: oil (with 1,600 cars per day moving out of North Dakota), coal, container shipments and then agriculture. _
> 
> _Agriculture groups had heard in previous meetings with BNSF that they were making attempts to “harmonize” agriculture and oil shipments; it appears that ag has fallen down on the list of priorities. When the oil boom was just beginning, BNSF officials seemed to believe that oil shipments would not affect agriculture shipments because oil goes south and grain goes east and west. Obviously, no one could have known the significant impacts oil would have on our rail infrastructure, as we have oil heading in all four directions._
> 
> -- North Dakota Farmers Union
> 
> 
> _Much has been said about the development of oil drilling in North Dakota. Many grain elevators believe the increased attention to oil by railroads is at the expense of grain. Tanker cars clog sidings and yards and move before anything else. This consumes power and crews._
> 
> -- Plains Grains & Agronomy
> 
> 
> _One of our biggest concerns looking forward is the likelihood of going into this fall's harvest with elevators close to full of grain and no freight to ship it. This will create some major problems, which will back onto farm storage and harvest delays._
> 
> _There is a perception that the railroads are providing preferential treatment to the movement of oil out of the North Dakota Bakken Range. This perception is reinforced when an elevator, that has been waiting months for delivery of grain cars, sees an oil train-a-day, go rolling past his facility. The BNSF has, for example, taken the unprecedented move to purchase 5000 new double hull and safer oil tankers to address the lingering safety problem associated with moving the volatile Bakken crude oil. This move only reinforces this perception of a long term commitment to oil and a persistence of unprecedented congestion on the rail network. Up until now, all oil tankers were privately owned and not railroad owned. We have witnessed first-hand, the reported 1363% increase car loadings of oil since 2010, a trend that will continue to adversely affect efficiencies on the rail network._
> 
> -- Minnesota Grain and Feed Association
> 
> 
> _As the Spring planting season quickly approaches, it is absolutely critical to get fertilizer from production and storage facilities to the fields. There is typically a narrow 60-90 day window in which to do so. But the significant service slow-downs on BNSF and CP have made these seasonal shipping patterns much more difficult. Transit times are taking longer, which has decreased equipment utilization. [The Fertilizer Institute] and its members are genuinely concerned that the fertilizer industry will not be able to deliver the fertilizer needed for crop production, particularly in major agricultural areas served by BNSF and CP. If the necessary supply of fertilizer is not available, those crops, and thus food production, will be reduced. That in turn can lead to higher food prices for consumers._
> 
> -- The Fertilizer Institute
> 
> _This past fall, we saw shuttle train cycle times dramatically slow down. Shuttles we load at harvest generally ship to the Pacific Northwest (PNW) export market via the BNSF. A typical cycle time for loading at origin in South Dakota, shipping to the PNW, unloading at a destination elevator, and then returning to South Dakota for the next loading generally takes about 12 to 13 days. Normally, a grain shuttle will load an average of 2.5 times per month and "cycle" back. However, this fall, the shuttles cycled in an average of 18 to 20 days or 1.5 trips per month. This increased cycle time, effectively reduced the amount of grain shipped by a given shuttle by 40 percent! In fact today, our cycle times still continue to deteriorate. Our current cycle times have pushed out to 24 days or only 1.3 trips per month here in early April...._
> 
> _It is soon planting time in the Dakotas, and fertilizer needs to reach my farm and others this spring. I have pre-paid for my fertilizer needs for the year, but now I'm wondering if the railroad will be able to deliver. It's yet another economic crunch that is hitting us all. Fertilizer supply is also heavily dependent on rail; for example: North and South Dakota need the equivalent of 2.5 million tons of urea nitrogen fertilizer for spring planting this year. If this moves by rail, that's equivalent to 26,000 railcars. But if we had to rely on trucks to deliver that same amount, it would require over 100,000 truckloads of fertilizer shipped from great distances in a very tight delivery window. Without dependable rail service, crop production this spring will be in jeopardy._
> 
> -- South Dakota Wheat Growers Cooperative
> 
> _During a significant portion of 2013 and continuing through now, many of the ADM facilities have been experiencing considerable rail service problems. We have been in constant communications with the carriers over their service problems, which appear to be very widespread, system-wide in nature. We are experiencing multiple issues with getting cars spotted and significantly slow transit times at many of our facilities. Among other things, these failures have caused us to cut processing (including crush reductions of up to tens of thousands of bushels a day) due to a lack of adequate rail transportation of our commodities._
> 
> -- Archer-Daniels-Midland Company (ADM)
> 
> 
> _Elevators expressed that BNSF local personnel, operating in oil field areas, have stated that servicing grain traffic (that has been moving in these areas for 100 years) is ‘annoying’_
> _Several elevators talk about the real fear of railroads ‘retaliation’ if they or their company talk to regulators. Fact: many local elevators are muzzled by their parent or financing elevator companies from appearing and testifying. Intimidation and retaliation are real._
> _Many elevator operators are showing 60 to 90+ days behind on getting cars_
> _Some grain shippers talked about the late deliveries of empty grain trains to the elevators, the slow pick up of loaded cars from the elevators (sometimes taking weeks), the delay in local yards with the shipment of loaded grain trains, “loads of wheat trains are just sitting there”_
> _“We sense favoritism, the delivery of sand and gravel cars gets access within 9 days, but 30+ days on grain cars on the same line and now 90+ days and counting”_
> _“The BNSF problems seem to be self-imposed – insufficient manpower, not enough rail cars, and not enough locomotives, Bakken oil shipment have increased by 3,000% since 2005 and six fold since 2011”_
> _MT lumber shippers were being told in summer of 2013 that they should expect service delays (that they were incurring in summer of 2013) for the next 3-5 years as BNSF repairs and increases capacity along the BNSF Hi-Line_
> _BNSF is dictating to coal companies how much inventory they can keep at their individual generating stations – “Unless your numbers (inventory or dead piles) are in single digit days, don’t bother ordering more trains.”_
> _Coal shippers continue to see the rail service meltdown as negatively affecting their operations of producing power – many power plants are faced with trying to save their stockpiles for the upcoming heavy power usage months of the summer, by reducing current generation and trying to make up shortfall power needs through purchases on the grid._
> -- Alliance for Rail Competition and Agricultural Commissions and Organizations (ARCACO)



Interestingly, and perhaps tellingly, the oil and gas industry has had very little to say so far. The only filings to date from that sector come from PBF Holding Company, which owns refineries that receive crude oil shipped through Chicago by BNSF and CP, Valero, whose concern relates purely to the shipment of ethanol from the company's Midwestern plants, and Northern Tier Energy, which operates a mid-sized refinery in St Paul Park, MN. Here is a portion of what these companies have to say.



> _PBF ships approximately 70,000 carloads per year of crude oil, petroleum products and petrochemicals by rail. It relies on consistent service and ratable deliveries to sustain its business. While the service problems this winter and spring have affected PBF as it has many other shippers, PBF believes that the railroads are working to correct the issues and that better weather will help, or at least not impede, those efforts._
> 
> _Based on the apparent focus of the hearing, and the complaints the Board has evidently been receiving from certain shippers (primarily of agricultural products and coal), PBF is concerned that the efforts to resolve the shipments of coal and agricultural products' issues not have the unintended effect of further exacerbating the service issues faced by shippers of other commodities such as crude oil. The reliable and ratable delivery of crude oil to our refineries is necessary in our manufacturing process._
> 
> -- PBF Holding Company
> 
> _We fully appreciate the difficult weather conditions that have contributed to this situation and the hard work of the rail carriers during this period. However, the lack of transparency as it relates to rail assets (crews and locomotive power) and continued poor rail service make it very difficult to operate our business and help meet U.S. demand for ethanol._
> 
> _The impact of the loss of Valero's and other Midwestern U.S. ethanol production is apparent in the marketplace. U.S. fuel ethanol inventories as reported by the U.S. Department of Energy on March 28, 2014 show ethanol inventories are 10% lower than the same period in 2013. In PADD 1 (the East Coast), average March 2014 ethanol inventories are 27% lower than average March 2013 ethanol inventories. Because of this shortage...ethanol prices in the key New York Harbor market have soared to record levels well above $4.00 per gallon, exceeding prices for RBOB (the petroleum component of gasoline). Ethanol spot prices in Chicago and Gulf Coast markets also rose above NYH RBOB prices._
> 
> _The EIA reported that logistical constraints in and around ethanol production centers in the Midwest, mainly involving railroads on which approximately 70% of ethanol is shipped, appear to be a key factor driving recent prices. These price increases are directly impacting gasoline prices and U.S. consumers as the price increases are passed through the U.S. supply chain._
> 
> -- Valero
> 
> _Beginning in late 2013, CP's switching steadily declined from seven days a week to a sporadic and irregular event to an average of almost six failures a week over that ten week span....A failure being defined as a missed switch or a failure to pick up & deliver specifically ordered cars....In March, only nine days transpired without service failure. It goes without saying that such wildly unpredictable and unreliable service greatly complicates operations, production and production cost at SPPR [st. Paul Park Refinery]._
> 
> _Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of the recent degradation of CP's switching is breakdown in communications. Of the 57 service failures recorded by SPPR and reported to CP via email between January 28th and the 7th of this month, 27 elicited no response whatsoever. Eleven of those 27 failures were missed switch movements at the Refinery. What limited responses SPPR did receive were often vague or not factual in nature, blaming crew shortages or contradicted reports from CP's interchange partners. The simple fact is, we can no longer trust CP to deliver carloads on time, or to produce realistic solutions to past service failures...._
> 
> _Without reliable service the refinery is faced with a variety of uneconomical choices, all of which hurt the fuels supply to the local community and cost the refinery in lost revenues. In recent months, service failures have resulted in a total approximate loss in revenues of $1.3 million dollars, approximately 110,000 barrels in lost fuel production or approx. 225,500 full tanks of gas in the MN area and forced the refinery to make further uneconomic operational changes to avoid a total shut down._
> 
> -- Northern Tier Energy


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> Ok, 8 Made it in MOT early, and sat there for over 2 hours.. WOnder what was gong on?
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


It's only day #2 for the new schedule, but looking at the delays piling up, things do not look good at all. ALL of the EBs are waaaaay behind even the new extra padded schedule. So much for adding time to help out. Big Time Bummer. :-(


----------



## EB_OBS

TraneMan said:


> Ok, 8 Made it in MOT early, and sat there for over 2 hours.. WOnder what was gong on?
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


The SCD crew from inbound #7(15) was not rested due to the train arriving into MOT 4:33 late.


----------



## orion

417am- Amtrak 1008 is sitting in Fargo with air flow problems in the last Portland coach car (second to last car). Also some unruly passengers being dealt with by the Fargo police. They cannot seem to catch a break at all.


----------



## montana mike

When it rains it pours on the Empire Builders it seems.

:-((


----------



## EB_OBS

#7(16) is near 4 hours late too so #8 will likely have to wait again for SCD crews to rest.


----------



## RCBev

Geez!!  My son and I want to ride the EB again in the pretty near future. We trying to talk my hubs in taking the train too. But if this continues, he will never want to ride with us.


----------



## George Harris

This seems similar to that which happened on the Sunset Route several years ago. UP has since poured a lot of money into the route to improve capacity, and there was also a significant slowing of the Sunset Limited's schedule. That route seems to now be functioning reasonably well.

All this reminds me of the saying that supposedly exists in the medical field: "All bleeding will stop." The obvious is that either the wound is closed or the body runs out of blood. Applied to the railroad issue at hand: Either the ability to haul the traffic is developed or the traffic either gives up or goes elsewhere. Put another way, if the capacity is not developed in reasonably short order, the shippers (and travelers) will give up and figure out another way.


----------



## montana mike

Well stated. My guess is the end result will be a function of both outcomes. Some customers will just leave-period-which will free up some capacity. I know that many larger agricultural firms in MT have been scrambling to look at alternatives to BNSF (there aren't any obvious options right now). If they can figure out a way (like moving the grain just a few miles north into Canada and shipping export grain via Vancouver vs US ports) this might ease their mess.

Also, intermodal has grown significantly over the past several years and I would think these shippers are looking at all sorts of alternative routes, that while perhaps a little longer, would get to their destination much quicker.

The Keystone pipeline would help some, BUT, I caution that it was not intended to move all of the Bakken oil anyway, plus moving the oil by rail gives refiners more options. This though is a long term solution. Nothing that would help in the next two years.

That's the fun about competition and a reasonably free marketplace--If there is an alternative people usually find it. Even if one is not obvious people may be able to create it!!

BNSF knows this and knows that the clock is ticking. The service for ALL customers has been abysmal and has not improved, despite the encouraging words from senior BNSF management.....


----------



## tim49424

EB_OBS said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, 8 Made it in MOT early, and sat there for over 2 hours.. WOnder what was gong on?
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.
> 
> 
> 
> The SCD crew from inbound #7(15) was not rested due to the train arriving into MOT 4:33 late.
Click to expand...

I wonder if that's what happened in MOT again tonight. #8 arrived 51 minutes early and departed 38 minutes late. They sat there for an hour and 49 minutes. Is this going to be routine with the new schedule?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

mwmnp said:


> _The last 6 months the BNSF has failed to deliver product to our 2 major Distribution Centers, one in Fridley MN and Hodgkins IL, both of these facilities are direct served by BNSF. Service times have taken as long as 33 days (normally 12 day transit). We have had several printers just cancel the order as we were totally unable to tell the printer when to expect the cars._


_ _

_
It always bothers em when I see freights being given priority over passenger trains, but at least the EB isn't running 21 days late!_

_ _

_ _

_
Well, at least not yet._


----------



## neroden

Ouch. Prioritizing oil over grain is going to get BNSF into BIG trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if the Department of Agriculture weighed in. People in government do understand that grain spoils and oil doesn't.


----------



## montana mike

tim54449 said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, 8 Made it in MOT early, and sat there for over 2 hours.. WOnder what was gong on?
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.
> 
> 
> 
> The SCD crew from inbound #7(15) was not rested due to the train arriving into MOT 4:33 late.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wonder if that's what happened in MOT again tonight. #8 arrived 51 minutes early and departed 38 minutes late. They sat there for an hour and 49 minutes. Is this going to be routine with the new schedule?
Click to expand...

Possibly crewing issues. Does anyone know for sure? This is not a pretty sight friends.

:-(


----------



## EB_OBS

There's only a little more than two hours cushion for #7's arrival in order for the crew to get eight hours rest to work #8 on-time. If #7 is any later than 2 - 2.5 hours then #8 will have to wait for the crew to rest. At least for the moment St. Cloud doesn't have the manpower to protect 8's departure with an extra crew.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

EB_OBS said:


> There's only a little more than two hours cushion for #7's arrival in order for the crew to get eight hours rest to work #8 on-time. If #7 is any later than 2 - 2.5 hours then #8 will have to wait for the crew to rest. At least for the moment St. Cloud doesn't have the manpower to protect 8's departure with an extra crew.


Oh joy Amtrak goes cheap.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I doubt it's cheapness. I think there is a general shortage or rr crew in that area.


----------



## montana mike

Looking at the performance of the EBs today under the "new" schedule I don't see ANY improvement, in fact in 3 of the four EBs currently chugging along they are as late or worse than before the 90 to 180 minute padding that Amtrak added to the schedule. I can now see why my BNSF folks wanted at least a 4 or 5 hour bump going east and two to three hours going west. Oh, well. Another frustrating summer appears to await Empire Builder passengers......

BTW-BNSF has started several smaller track maintenance projects along the Hi-Line, but a couple of the major efforts will commence in about two weeks. I was informed that May thru at least September will be quite busy as far as slow orders and construction are concerned. They are also continuing to have both locomotive and crew "challenges" as they refer to them. Better then at the depths of last winter, but not where they need to be. Trained crews and reliable power is not something that materializes overnight, as we all know.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I would expect BNSF enjoyed not bothering to run the train on time.


----------



## George Harris

I do not think prioritizing freight over passengers is what is being seen. I think what is being seen when a freight train goes by the passenger train is the passenger train waiting for a rested crew when the freight goes by.


----------



## TraneMan

as of late, seems like they get held up around the LSE/TOH area in WI lately.


----------



## anir dendroica

Two thoughts on the recent discussion:

1. I'm not sure there is a precedent for this, but it seems that BNSF would have been wise to assess its capacity to handle oil trains while keeping the system fluid. They could then have set a cap at, say, 400,000 barrels per day. There is no reason, short of financial greed, why North Dakota's oil needs to be extracted as fast as humanly possible. If the oil companies wanted to increase the cap, they would be responsible for funding capacity improvements either directly or through greatly elevated shipping costs.

2. There are four important elements to lengthening a train schedule:

A. Secure an extra trainset if turnaround times are tight.

B. Sever and/or adjust connections from other trains.

C. Negotiate a new schedule with the freight railroads.

D. Modify crew districts so that minor delays do not affect crew rest times or result in dogcatch crews.

So far we have seen A, B, and C, but no sign of D. Not surprising given the expense it would incur, but if the new schedule is to work (or if an even-longer schedule is adopted in the future), Amtrak needs to add a crew district. The current east-end crew districts are:

Chicago-St. Cloud

St. Cloud-Minot

Minot-Shelby

It is the St. Cloud-Minot crew that has to navigate the section with the most delays. One possible adjustment would be:

Chicago-St. Paul

St. Paul-Grand Forks

Grand Forks-Williston

Williston-Shelby


----------



## EB_OBS

You forgot Winona, MN.

Chicago - Winona

Winona - St. Cloud

St. Cloud - Minot

Minot - Shelby


----------



## TraneMan

I saw one of the conductor stayed the night in Minot instead of getting on 8 right away that night since he was on the late 7, and they were able to leave MOT close to on time last night. Not sure if they sent a new crew up to MOT the night before?


----------



## lionelhoguy

When we were coming from MSP down to CHI on #8 on the April 16th we had to back out of most of the sidings we were placed in due to dead freights parked in most of the sidings along the way. The station agent in CBS said that there were only two open sidings open between MSP and MKE that day.

And were slowed down even more when we had to back up all the way to Mauston to drop off a teenager that was sick. It turned out that he was faking just to get off the train to go to the hospital to get meds according to the conductor.

We ended up about 6 hours late into CHI.


----------



## Trainmans daughter

And then throw an additional 52 fertilizer trainloads into the mix--65 to 85 cars each--and see what happens. In yesterday's business section of the newspaper:

BISMARCK, N.D. | BNSF Railway Co. has told a federal oversight board that it will add 52 trains in the Dakotas, Minnesota and Montana over the next six weeks to boost fertilizer shipments.

The Surface Transportation Board this week ordered BNSF and Canadian Pacific Railway to report their plans by Friday to ensure delivery of fertilizer shipments for spring crop planting.

BNSF beat the deadline. Canadian Pacific had not filed a response by midday Thursday.

The federal board ordered the railroads to submit the plans in the wake of service disruptions. Increased crude oil and freight shipments have largely been blamed for causing the rail delays.

BNSF says in its response that it began expanding its fertilizer shipments this week and the railroad "already is seeing positive progress."


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Can we get the STB to make BNSF move Amtrak trains on time?

Can the STB force BNSF to double track the Hi-Line?


----------



## montana mike

BNSf is planning on double tracking 115 miles of the Hi-Line (out of over 1000 miles) over the next two years


----------



## NW cannonball

I am so glad I'm not in charge of prioritizing traffic on the way overloaded BNSF north.

Sheesh. Bless all the trainmasters and dispatchers.

Farmers need fertilizer to get good crops next fall, BUT already have grain backed up by the trainload from last years harvest. AND the passenger delays we all complain about. AND management wants us to totally exploit the insanely fast-growing fracking biz. AND got to get those high-revenue intermodals thru. AND the utilities are screaming about dwindling coal reserves - gotta fix that before the summer heat.

AND - every track work project to enlarge capacity means LESS capacity every shift we got to get all these trains through.

Guess it will be a while, huh?


----------



## montana mike

As BNSF says, most of their work will be finished in 2016, yup, a lonnnnnng while.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Can we get the STB to make BNSF move Amtrak trains on time?
> 
> Can the STB force BNSF to double track the Hi-Line?


As things stand the answer clearly appears to be No, and you guessed it.... No. Sadly. At least not without many years worth of litigation and many millions spent first.

The good news is that BNSF is apparently taking on the giant task of double tracking significant portions of that route for the first time. Unlike on many other routes the High Line for most parts has never ever been a double track railroad. So it was not a case of a track having been pulled up that needs to be restored. It is new construction.


----------



## Ispolkom

I just returned from a short visit to Minot. We were delayed several hours in both directions between Minot and Fargo because of slow orders, not freight traffic. The spring thaw is not doing any favors to the beat-up track on the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions, I guess.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Maybe the ex-con ex-pax was upset because there was no flower at his table during dinner? ^_^ 

From krtv.com: 



> *Passenger assaults Amtrak conductor near Whitefish*
> 
> 
> 
> WHITEFISH -- An Amtrak train was halted unexpectedly near Whitefish after a passenger was forcibly removed for allegedly hitting the train's conductor.
> 
> According to Amtrak officials, a male passenger had become unruly and BNSF police requested assistance from the Flathead County Sheriff's office.
> 
> The suspect, whose name has not yet been released, was allegedly in a physical confrontation with the train's conductor.
> 
> Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari says his officers acted quickly: "Our highest priority is the safety of our passengers and our crew and if there is someone who won't comply with directions from the conductor and if their behavior is disruptive, they will receive warnings but in the end if they still don't comply with those directions, we'll hand them over to the emergency responders whether they need medical treatment or they need to be somehow incarcerated."
> 
> [SIZE=medium]According to court documents, the suspect is already registered as a violent offender, and was taken to the Flathead County Detention [/SIZE]Center, but was not listed on the jail roster as of Friday afternoon.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I like the 1st paragraph. The trained stopped AFTER the passenger was removed.


----------



## montana mike

Monday AM: With the exception of #7, plugging along in ND and over 4 hours behind (started about 2 hours late from CHI), the other three EBs are all close to the new schedule--scary!!


----------



## Joe F

montana mike said:


> Monday AM: With the exception of #7, plugging along in ND and over 4 hours behind (started about 2 hours late from CHI), the other three EBs are all close to the new schedule--scary!!


It's strange to see EB #8 in green or yellow in Minnesota on the Dixieland map site.


----------



## tim49424

Even stranger to see yellow in Wisconsin, particularly Milwaukee (departed 54 minutes late).


----------



## Phil S

Why was 28 delayed today out of PDX -- lack of crew rest after 27 arrived late? More generally, doesn't leaving 3 hrs earlier make it even less likely crew will get enough rest?

Also, how is the padding eastbound distributed across the route? In my recent experience (27(14)) we lost at least as much time on CP track as on BNS, mostly nosing into 3 sidings and then having to back out.

What a mess.


----------



## montana mike

One week into the newly padded schedule and here are the results so far:

delays into SEA: average delay 238 minutes (this is actually worse than the long term average)

delays into CHI: average delay 169 minutes, which is a modest improvement over the last 6-9 months performance (which was nearly double this amount)

It is only one week, but it would appear that BNSF was more accurate in it's recommendations to add 4 hours (or more) to the Eastbound EB and up to 3 hours for the Westbound version. It is troubling to see the trains arriving in SEA/PDX so late on a regular basis now, with many of the delays not just thru ND/MT, but in WI and ID/WA as well. It will be interesting to see if the trend of delay reduction continues or whether it stabilizes at these levels.


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> One week into the newly padded schedule and here are the results so far:
> 
> delays into SEA: average delay 238 minutes (this is actually worse than the long term average)
> 
> delays into CHI: average delay 169 minutes, which is a modest improvement over the last 6-9 months performance (which was nearly double this amount)
> 
> It is only one week, but it would appear that BNSF was more accurate in it's recommendations to add 4 hours (or more) to the Eastbound EB and up to 3 hours for the Westbound version. It is troubling to see the trains arriving in SEA/PDX so late on a regular basis now, with many of the delays not just thru ND/MT, but in WI and ID/WA as well. It will be interesting to see if the trend of delay reduction continues or whether it stabilizes at these levels.


I"m wondering what's the deal in WI around TOH and LSE area.. On my last few trips, I noticed a newer "yard" and I am guessing that for fracking or something.. So CP maybe got things rolling there.


----------



## tim49424

TraneMan said:


> On my last few trips, I noticed a newer "yard" and I am guessing that for fracking or something..


If that was just west of the tunnel, yes, that would be for fracking. On my two round trips out that way, I noticed there was work going on there laying new track for it. Someone made an announcement on my first trip westbound informing us of what that was.


----------



## montana mike

I believe it is the "sand". Just the right stuff for what they need in ND.


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> I believe it is the "sand". Just the right stuff for what they need in ND.


That's exactly where it's headed once it's mined in Sparta, just west of Tomah.


----------



## mikeschu

Update on my EB #8 trip early last week:

Departed PDX on time and we were actually 30 minutes early heading into Shelby, MT. We only started losing time at Williston due to slow orders and ended up departing MOT about 45 minutes behind schedule due to a minor maintenance issue.

We lost two hours going through ND overnight and started making time up in Minnesota. We were 2 hr 20 min behind at Winona, but lost two hours between there and Wisconsin Dells due to CP working on track and waiting for freight to pass in the other direction.

We arrived in CHI exactly four hours late.

I think trains may lose as much time on the CP track as they do on the BNSF side for the foreseeable future.


----------



## neroden

mikeschu said:


> I think trains may lose as much time on the CP track as they do on the BNSF side for the foreseeable future.


Three words: E Hunter Harrison


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

CPR got raid by a guy who want short term increase in dividends and a stock price increase.

E Hunter Harrison just doing what the stockholders want. Profits today, who cares about tomorrow.

BNSF boss trying to get a job at BH so he focus on the short term, and fails on the long term.

Greed you can never have enough.


----------



## montana mike

Meanwhile it is interesting that if Amtrak had plugged in BNSF's recommended schedule changes, just about all of the trains chugging along today would have been "on time". Yes, I know, likely something else would come up that would just keep the delays going, but it is interesting to note......


----------



## andersone

i think the motto of the EB should be:

"Time is but a constant in our universe"


----------



## montana mike

LOL

)


----------



## CHamilton

I am on 8(23) which left Seattle 2 hours late due to a bad ordered crew car. Just left Shelby about 1:30 late. Now to run the gauntlet.


----------



## montana mike

May the Force be with you!!

Hopefully #8 will lose only 2 hours or so and will arrive in CHI tomorrow at a "reasonable" time. #8(22) lost around 90 minutes yesterday, so hope springs eternal!


----------



## CHamilton

Just left Havre 1:50 late.


----------



## CHamilton

Just left Wolf Point 1:45 late.


----------



## CHamilton

Leaving Williston 1:55 late.


----------



## CHamilton

We had been less than an hour late at Minot, but are now 2:45 late at Grand Forks.


----------



## jebr

Looks like you guys made up a half-hour in Fargo...only 2:16 down right now.


----------



## CHamilton

Just left Staples. About 2:30 late. Will meet up with jebr at SCD.


----------



## TrainLoverJoy

I'm on the 7 right now..you guys on 8?


----------



## jebr

TrainLoverJoy said:


> I'm on the 7 right now..you guys on 8?


Yep, on the 8 right now.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ryan

79 MPH HIGH FIVE!!!!

(Don't actually do that)


----------



## JoeBas

If they're both moving 79, wouldn't that be 158MPH High Five?

Wait, what am I saying. They're on the Empire Builder, they'll be lucky if ONE of them is doing more than 20!


----------



## CHamilton

Only 1:02 late at Tomah! Jebr didn't even have time for lunch before Winona. But we had good breakfast and conversation with him and his girlfriend.


----------



## CHamilton

Actually, we've seen quite a lot of 79 mph.


----------



## montana mike

Meanwhile #7 in Central MT is now more than 5 hours behind. Had a brutal run thru eastern MT and ND.

:-(


----------



## andersone

only four days until we hear the decision to keep the changes?


----------



## Ptcflyer

Well, while the train is late, great deals are available for the roomettes. I just snagged a sub $250 roomette both ways Between Chicago and Seattle. May 23 out and June 5 back.

With two people sharing, and the aaa discount, it is a lot of train time and food for the money.


----------



## montana mike

It would appear many potential travelers are not taking the Empire Builder due to the long delays. It is the in between season to be sure, but the local stationmaster had mentioned that the EBs pax loads were indeed somewhat lighter than normal lately. The EB's issues got a lot of negative press in the local media for weeks, so this may also be weighing in on the decision by many to skip taking the train. I note this AM that #7 in WA is still well over 3 hours late and #8 in MN is over 4 hours late. The padding does not appear to have helped much. Bummer. I personally can't see how Amtrak and BNSF would go back to the old schedule, which would potentially make these trains ridiculously late again. :-(


----------



## tim49424

andersone said:


> only four days until we hear the decision to keep the changes?


The changes "expire" May 31.

I would imagine further changes would be in store. As mm said the padding is not working. There will be a change next week, however, when Amtrak moves over to SPUD.


----------



## penfrydd

What's this about a decision on whether to keep the revised EB schedule being due out in four days?

I'm scheduled for a EMY to GPK trip in July. I made an additional reservation for a one day earlier trip on the CS, rather than modify my existing reservation, just in case they go back to the old schedule. It would save me a night in Portland, which seems to have rather expensive lodging, at least for my wallet.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

There is no way they are going back to the old schedule penfry. You made the right choice. It is likely they will start running even earlier out of Portland.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Ptcflyer said:


> Well, while the train is late, great deals are available for the roomettes. I just snagged a sub $250 roomette both ways Between Chicago and Seattle. May 23 out and June 5 back.
> 
> With two people sharing, and the aaa discount, it is a lot of train time and food for the money.


Wow, you snagged a good deal. Just for fun, I just looked at the same dates and it was $1300.


----------



## Green Eye

I'm on train 8 (26) and we're holding just west of Havre for a freight (second hold in 30 minutes), so we're already late. Up until these holds, we were 20 minutes early and we sat at the Shelby station for about 20 minutes.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

That the problem "Green Eye" the delay are not fixed but the timetable is. One stop your early next stop your late. No winners.


----------



## Green Eye

Yes, it will be an interesting trip. The crew is great so far and the reasons for the delays have been announced.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jane

What is the chance of bringing back the Hiawatha thru southern Mt? They talked about it before the oil boom. Seems like a good answer to the problems to me. It was a great route, close to Yellowstone and thru lots more cities with airports and no flooding issues.

.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

0% unless real advocacy starts.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Southern Montana would be nice, but Amtrak is in a downward spiral when it comes to the Long Distance Trains. No growth planed, cutting service to the basics, even if drives customer away.

Sorry but I can wait for Boardman to retire. Not that he is the root cause of the issues, just hope the next guy will put more effort and time in the LD fleet.

Just Thinking out loud.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I frankly think Boardman is a part of the solution, not part of the problem.


----------



## andersone

well i am booked in August and i have already made my changes,,, not staying at Belton the second night but driving back to GBK for the earlier departure, My bad for confusing May 1 and May 31,,, my money is still on the expanded schedule


----------



## BrianPR3

RyanS said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Although the recent trend of all of the host roads treating Amtrak like crap is troubling.


wasn't there a law regarding that, the host railroad *HAS TO *give amtrak priority or face fines?


----------



## jis

Look, Congress and the Executive Branch together own the strategy that Amtrak is to execute. They appoint a Board of Directors to carry out said strategy. The Board of Directors appoints a guy to do it on their behalf. Anyone that thinks an Amtrak CEO is going to do anything that the Board of Directors does not approve, or is going to do something that the Board does not approve, is living in far la la land. As long as the BoD does not take a position on LD trains, whether it be expansion or whatever, trust me there will be no Amtrak CEO who will pursue such. People who get to such positions know precisely which side of their bread is buttered.

Bottom line is, given the hand that he has been served, Boardman is playing it about as well as anyone can. If anyone expects that the next guy will go rogue on the Board and start doing more for LD trains than the Board desires, they are just kidding themselves and setting themselves up for a huge disappointment. But of course this is a free country and all that.... and of course that is what keeps half the posts coming on AU too.


----------



## montana mike

So, let's see. The average delay into CHI BEFORE the new schedule was around 4+ hours. Since the new padding was added the delays into CHI have averaged 152 minutes, or a little over 2 1/2 hours. With the last several days ALL running about 4 hours behind, including today. The padding is helping a little, but by the time the summer construction season is in full swing my BNSF contacts here in MT inform me that 5+ hour delays WITH the padding may be the norm for both east and west bound EBs on many days. So we would be back to where we were before! Bummer.

Footnote: the 115 mile double tracking scheduled to be installed over the next 2 years is about 25% of what BNSF's internal needs are (just under 600 miles was requested) according to my sources. This much larger amount of track effort was pitched to senior management but rejected as taking too much capital away from projects in other areas of the country. The folks on the Hi-Line were told to resubmit any additional needs in 2016 for possible funding of track work at that time. Doesn't sound like any short term solutions are on the horizon folks......


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

It does help when a BoD has a plan.

However taken a active interest is a section of a company your in charge of does not take a BoD.

Also since when does a CEO not have the ability to ask the BoD to do something / or make a decision / policy.

With a interest and active CEO follow the guild lines set by a BoD do you think Empire Builders would be running better. Even if its just leaving the end terminal on-time. What about these delay in Minot, ND of no rested crews available. An CEO can ask question to show interest. People do work harder if someone is watching.


----------



## Ryan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> An CEO can ask question to show interest. People do work harder if someone is watching.


You know that this isn't happening?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

No I don't.

I see things.

I hear things.

I watch things.

I read things.

Sorry been saying this since the first LD manger was shown to the exit. There is a pattern of events going on, and I don't like were it going.


----------



## EB_OBS

Green Maned Lion said:


> I frankly think Boardman is a part of the solution, not part of the problem.


I have to agree. I've seen more positive progress in more areas then with the previous two CEOs. I like Boardman. When I've watched his performance before congress I've been generally impressed at his advocacy for rail travel including long distance travel. I recall the last several CEOs were not railroad men whereas Boardman has spent a career in railroad and understands the industry quite well.


----------



## Ryan

Thanks for that perspective from the inside. My observations agree with yours and GMLs.


----------



## jis

My thinking is as follows. Of course anyone is free to agree or disagree....

Until Congress and BoD decide they want a thriving LD business, there will not be one. If Congress was serious about LD business, they'd have backed the PIPs up with funding, or a clearly stated plan for funding). They did not. That should give an obvious message to anyone that is paying attention. That was singular feature that distinguished PRIIA Section 210 (which deals exclusively with LD trains) from both Section 209, which dealt with funding for non-NEC corridor trains with specific instructions on funding action (from elsewhere than the national budget, but clear instructions on what has to happen), and Section 212 dealing with NEC, again with clear instructions on what needs to be done (NEC Commission to figure out cost allocation for charge-back to all users of the NEC and discontinue all cross-subsidy - which actually in effect removes some funding from LD trains, notwithstanding all the protestations to the contrary from some) to make its maintenance and operations financially self-sufficient except for capital improvement grants.

Given this overwhelming evidence, those that keep on blaming Boardman for the plight of the LD trains, have to blame themselves for being as frustrated as they seem to be with Boardman. The target of said frustration is completely off the mark IMHO.

I do agree with the observations/opinions of GML and EB_OBS as far a Boardman goes.


----------



## EB_OBS

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> What about these delay in Minot, ND of no rested crews available. An CEO can ask question to show interest. People do work harder if someone is watching.


It takes time to staff up qualified individuals in order to expand the board and protect Minot's departure time. It's four to six months minimum to hire and train new assistant conductors and full year before they are conductor qualified. We need at least two, preferably four crew in Minot to protect as long as #7 is not going to be able to arrive less than two hours late.

Amtrak cannot force anyone to relocate or transfer even temporarily to the hi-line. Currently there is a request for conductors to volunteer to loan out to SBY and SCD crew bases. I assume it's to facilitate protecting Minot. I just heard about this last night.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yes I have been told, it can take a HR dept 6 months just a hire a person. My last job offer was in three days flat.

It seem BNSF is able to hire people in 4 months, and train them in 17 weeks for its crew base in Minor, ND. Ad post in April, start day in July for 25 conductors.

However back to Amtrak, try hiring new trainee conductors with a note that they will be assigned to a location at the needs of the company. Help with a 6 month hotel, and relocate expense. After they may bid on jobs, locations. This will take care of spot shortages. So when the host has a melt down or a change of timetable. New employees can be assigned as needed.

Pretty common in the jobs I have applied for / worked. Not sure how a. Union would feel.

Question for EB_OBS has Amtrak made it official that the temporary timetable is going to forward past May?


----------



## EB_OBS

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Question for EB_OBS has Amtrak made it official that the temporary timetable is going to forward past May?


No, unfortunately it's mostly speculation and discussion of several different scenarios, all of which have been discussed here. I haven't heard anything solid that I'd be willing to bank on.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Listen, Boardman was hired by the Board Of Directors. The Board Of Directors was hired by the President. They were hired by the President to toe his party line. So the person in charge of Amtrak's executive is the POTUS, because essentially if everyone between the POTUS and up to and including Boardman want to keep their jobs, they are going to do that which they are going to be told to do. Part of what they are told to do is facilitate the Presidents desires as much as possible while complying with Congressional mandates and working with Congress to try and make sure those mandates aren't the result of Congress being pissed off at Amtrak. (For an example of where that can be a problem, see George Warrington)

We know Boardman isn't particularly interested in killing the LD trains because there is a huge argument for why they should be killed available at his disposal. 1) Investment in new equipment would take forever to accomplish and would take forever to pay for. 2) At the current equipment levels, the system is basically at capacity. 3) The system has more or less reached its gag factor in pricing level. 4) We are sill losing money. Ipso Facto, the trains can never be operationally self-sufficient. Ergo, I issue a 180 day train off notice for the entire system.

And there is nothing in Amtrak's charter that prevents Boardman from deciding that as of May 1st (forget about plastic plates and table cloths) all Amtrak dining cars will be taken off the trains, and converted into lounge cafes. As these new lounge cafes get put into service, all sightseer lounges shall be retired because of their massive haulage and cooling costs. Meals will no longer be included in the sleeping car price, and no, there will be no price reduction. All rail fares shall double, and sleeper fares shall triple. Etc. etc. etc. Trust me, if they were really trying to kill them, they'd be dead.

If you want to take a look at a truly hostile system, look at NJ Transit under Warrington and Sarles.

Boardman is trying to reduce costs, mostly by appearance, and is trying to run the system in an efficient way. I doubt service expansions will come anywhere that said service expansion won't pay for itself.

By the way, the logical reason for removing table cloths is probably nothing to do with the costs of the table cloths. Rather, it reduces the cost of staffing. It takes a hell of a lot less time to set a table by just throwing pre-wrapped silverware napkins onto the table after quickly wiping it down with a wet cloth.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> My thinking is as follows. Of course anyone is free to agree or disagree....
> 
> Until Congress and BoD decide they want a thriving LD business, there will not be one. If Congress was serious about LD business, they'd have backed the PIPs up with funding, or a clearly stated plan for funding).


Net cost of implementing LSL schedule change recommendation according to PIP: less than zero -- improves bottom line by $1.9 millionNet cost of implementing CL-Pennsy through cars recommendation according to PIP: $700,000 (operating). And I think this estimate is pessimistic; at this point it would probably turn an operating profit.

Seriously, Amtrak should be able to implement that out of its budget without special funding. Even with the $1-2 million needed for capital improvements to make it work.

The California Zephyr PIP recommended a "customer service excellence program"g of management designed to cause *all* the CZ crews to be as good as the *better* CZ crews -- because Amtrak had solid data indicating that passengers loved some OBS crews, and hated others. I certainly hope Amtrak is still pursuing this program and expanding it to all trains, because goodness knows Amtrak needs this program.

In short, most of the stuff in the PIPs is targeted at improving the bottom line. This is not stuff which should require special funding to implement.

The rest was designed to massively improve ridership, so that the politically important "dollars per passenger", "dollars per passenger mile", and "farebox recovery percentage" numbers looked much better. For a daily Cardinal, the net costs were estimated at $2.1 million/year, and for the daily Sunset-Eagle, at $3.0 million/year. Again, the revenue and ridership numbers were pessimistic.

The various scenarios analyzed in the PIPs (the Cardinal PIP analyzed seven) should be reanalyzed using the more recent, higher ticket prices, better ridership, and changes in state funding, and Amtrak should aggressively pursue implementation of whatever scenario looks best. The LSL schedule change was considered a net positive for the bottom line already in 2011. The CL-Pennsy through cars

are probably a net positive under current conditions. At least one of the scenarios for a daily Cardinal is probably in net-positive territory by this point.

I understand that some of the PIP implementations have been stalled by things entirely other than Amtrak management; hostility from Union Pacific, for example, or lack of available rolling stock.

There is some indication of a bad attitude, however, even in the PIPs. "Full implementation of the Point of Sale system on long distance trains will be contingent on available funding." Implementing this will save lots of money every year forever after. If necessary, take out a loan to do it; it appears to be possible for Amtrak to take out loans now. Of course, this may actually be delayed by things other than money (apparently retraining all the cafe car staff has been... slow).


----------



## Green Eye

Continuing today on train 8. We arrived in Minot early and left on time. Freight trains today are mostly intermodal and unit grain.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Eye

Well, train 8 just can't catch a break! Now we're stopped at Towner, ND, about 15 miles west of Rugby. My cell phone gave me a flood warning. The conductor said that there was a track inspector in front of us checking conditions. We are under slow orders and my speedometer app says we're doing 20 mph.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## yarrow

from a post on TO: eb 7 derailed 2 cars east end of bainville, mt. 8, at bainville, is to back into culbertson and wait


----------



## greatcats

Oh joy, oh bliss, oh rapture!!


----------



## montana mike

yarrow said:


> from a post on TO: eb 7 derailed 2 cars east end of bainville, mt. 8, at bainville, is to back into culbertson and wait


Wow, it has been a long time since the EB's have had a derailment like this. Good Grief!!!

:-(


----------



## yarrow

yarrow said:


> from a post on TO: eb 7 derailed 2 cars east end of bainville, mt. 8, at bainville, is to back into culbertson and wait


 

evidently just a minor injury to a pax. no word on any injuries to equipment


----------



## EB_OBS

#7 was on the move at 5:57pm MT. Left two cars behind. #8 can't get thru until the track is repaired.

Only one minor injury reported that I'm aware of.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

Talk about adding insult to injury. The Empire Builder's fall from grace has been nothing short of disastrous. On my next trip east I think I'll travel SEA-CHI via California (and take my chances). If only the Pioneer had not be axed!


----------



## montana mike

EB_OBS said:


> #7 was on the move at 5:57pm MT. Left two cars behind. #8 can't get thru until the track is repaired.
> 
> Only one minor injury reported that I'm aware of.


Amtrak can ill afford to loose rolling stock these days.

:-(


----------



## TraneMan

Seems like 8 won't make it to MOT till 8 or so in the morning.


----------



## JoeZeppy412

So what happens to the passengers on those two cars?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Move to the Seattle section, bus from Spokane to Portland. Very light passenger load report 117. They have the space.


----------



## montana mike

Meanwhile #7 in ND today is now about 7 hours behind. It was a brutally slow run thru ND.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

montana mike said:


> Meanwhile #7 in ND today is now about 7 hours behind. It was a brutally slow run thru ND.
> 
> :-(


This AM: #7, still not in WFH-now over 8 hours behind and #8, just entering MN now about 5 1/2 hours behind. Welcome to the "new" reality of the EB this Spring. Rats.


----------



## montana mike

montana mike said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile #7 in ND today is now about 7 hours behind. It was a brutally slow run thru ND.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> This AM: #7, still not in WFH-now over 8 hours behind and #8, just entering MN now about 5 1/2 hours behind. Welcome to the "new" reality of the EB this Spring. Rats.
Click to expand...

This evening two of the EBS are now well over 9 hours late--good grief!! Another is almost 6 hours behind--and this is on the new schedule. I do not see any chance to go back to the old schedule. If anything they need to perhaps add even more time to this mess. Not looking good for the rest of 2014 for sure.


----------



## andersone

I see my vacation before me,,, scheduled arrival GPK 8:15 PM actual arrival 4:15 AM,,,,, hope I have enough of a cell signal to cancel the room at the Glacier Park Lodge,,, but what do until the rental agency opens,,, ? Canasta with the rest of the GPK souls?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I got an e-mail from Amtrak today regarding my trip on the EB this June. It's a new schedule, showing the new arrival time in PDX of 11:40 am. So, it looks like they have officially moved the extended schedule past May 31st.

After trying several sample bookings on Amtrak.com, it looks like the new schedule is now in effect through June 15th.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Nice way to screw people up.

Short notice change of timetable.


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF contacts just told me that the new schedule will likely be in effect "indefinitely". They said the construction, now gearing up along the hi-line will be creating 4+ hour delays both ways thru out much of the summer., and freight traffic levels will remain high (they also reminded me they are beginning to receive the 5000 new oil tanker cars beginning this month). Looking at the recent arrivals in both CHI and the west coast I would say their info appears to be accurate. This AM's #7 for example is over 5 hours late, with all of the time lost thru ND and MT. As they say at Amtrak Enjoy the Ride!"

:-(


----------



## rusty spike

However, Amtrak wants you to continue to be confused....

FWIW, the new System Timetable just out and effective June 9, 2014 has the EB back to it's pre-April 15th schedule. :wacko: :help:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/458/185/Amtrak-System-Timetable-Summer-Fall-2014.pdf


----------



## TraneMan

They are telling people that time can change..


----------



## montana mike

Given the performance so far under the "new" schedule, and as the BNSF people have told me now on several occasions over the past two weeks, the reality of the big time delays on the Hi-Line (if you add the current delays to the padding you come up with 7-8 hour delays off the "old" schedule, which is what was common a few months ago so no real change) this new schedule isn't going away any time soon. In fact BNSF has told Amtrak that with continued increases in freight congestion and construction delays to increase this summer the current padding is likely woefully inadequate.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

Does anyone know what has happened to 7/27, currently sitting just east of SPK? It was about 6 hours behind schedule before it stopped just outside of SPK.

:-(


----------



## orion

It seems that (4)7 is travelling the KO this morning. Anybody know what is going on?


----------



## aurbo

It looks like BNSF is setting up its directional system through ND this summer. Westbound EB will be travelling the KO with bus service to GFK, DVL, and RUG and the eastbound will be on the Devils Lake/Hillsboro sub.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Nice so BNSF makes Amtrak and the state give them money to keep a route open, and now they can only use it one way.

Has BNSF given the money back yet?

Or are they claiming it only during the construction season.


----------



## Ispolkom

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Nice so BNSF makes Amtrak and the state give them money to keep a route open, and now they can only use it one way.
> 
> Has BNSF given the money back yet?


I don't think that North Dakota ever came up with its share. At least, I never saw any appropriation past the $10 million TIGER grant, which is, of course, federal money. Also, did Amtrak actually pay money to BNSF? The last I saw (and this is almost 2 years ago) BNSF was "financing" Amtrak's share. My dear hope is that BNSF finds it politically inexpedient to dunn Amtrak and North Dakota and gets stuck with a much larger share of the $100 million project's cost.

I am lucky not to have the three bypassed cities as my destination, and I assume that the Empire Builder can be just as late on the KO sub as on the Hillsboro/Devils Lake route, so maybe on one of my trips to Minot I'll finally have the joy of going through New Rockford by train.


----------



## neroden

Ispolkom said:


> Also, did Amtrak actually pay money to BNSF? The last I saw (and this is almost 2 years ago) BNSF was "financing" Amtrak's share.


Very interesting. This ought to have shown up on Amtrak's books as a loan if it's correct.


----------



## George Harris

BNSF is spending serious money on expanding capacity. And this is THEIR MONEY, not Uncle Sugar's

Go through this: http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/class-1/bnsf-2014-capital-program-progressing-with-northern-corridor-projects.html?channel=Array&utm_source=WhatCounts+Publicaster+Edition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=5.5.14&utm_content=Full+Article+

I would like to quote large chunks of it, but think I might be treading on thin ice in the copyright world if I did.


----------



## Ryan

That's why you only quote excerpts.

The bottom line:



> "Following our record capital investment in 2013 of $4 billion, we are making the most significant capital investment in our history of approximately $5 billion this year," said Carl Ice, president and chief executive officer of BNSF. "Our capital investments along the Northern Corridor are critical to expanding our capacity to support the region's rapidly growing economy, improving our ability to meet our customers' expectations and ensuring our railroad remains the safest mode of ground transportation for freight."


I don't think anyone doubts that they're spending a pile of money. The problem is they should have done this 3-4 years ago.


----------



## yarrow

8(5) is off to a bad start. dead engine at evr awaiting a replacement. possibly will leave evr around 6:50pm. 4+ hours late


----------



## Phil S

wondered what happened. Thanks. Looks like we're doing well on the rest of the route, though - both ways.



yarrow said:


> 8(5) is off to a bad start. dead engine at evr awaiting a replacement. possibly will leave evr around 6:50pm. 4+ hours late


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> That's why you only quote excerpts.
> 
> The bottom line:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Following our record capital investment in 2013 of $4 billion, we are making the most significant capital investment in our history of approximately $5 billion this year," said Carl Ice, president and chief executive officer of BNSF. "Our capital investments along the Northern Corridor are critical to expanding our capacity to support the region's rapidly growing economy, improving our ability to meet our customers' expectations and ensuring our railroad remains the safest mode of ground transportation for freight."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone doubts that they're spending a pile of money. The problem is they should have done this 3-4 years ago.
Click to expand...

But then they were double tracking the southern transcon, and triple tracking Cajun Pass. You can't do anything at once, and as a native of the Hi Line, I'm used to living on the line that gets ignored. Plus, let's face it, most people didn't believe that the Baaken would get this big, this fast. If the guaranteed shipments had been there, pipelines would already be under construction.

Still, it sucks to be happy to only be 2-3 hours late.


----------



## yarrow

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/class-i/northwest-congestion-spurs-intermodal-shift.html

good article about hi-line problems and solutions


----------



## montana mike

Yes, very good article. And as the local BNSF folks have said all along--when BH took them over it was all about the "bottom line" and not how to best run the railroad. For the first three years cuts were made across the board on many existing and planned maintenance and track improvement projects in order to show the Mr. Buffett's minions what a great job he did in buying BNSF. BH is paying a severe penalty for their lack of vision. The only reason profits weren't down more was that rate increases partly offset a downturn in customers. I had mentioned earlier the efforts of a number of Ag Coops in MT to seek out alternative means of transportation for their grain. I do believe at least some of the grain normally shipped by BNSF will move via the Canadian railroads this Spring and Summer just because of the extreme delays that BNSF has created.

This mess will indeed be fixed at some point, just sad to see how bad things have gotten.........


----------



## JayPea

Here's an article from yesterday's Spokane _Spokesman-Review_ regarding BNSF's $235 million investment in Washington, particularly as it relates to work here in Eastern Washington.

A couple of points from the article:

1) It mentioned double-tracking near Tokio on the BNSF line from Spokane to Wenatchee. Now, nobody but myopic nerds like myself with no lives would notice this :lol: but that's in error, as Tokio is on the Spokane-Pasco line.

2) It mentioned traffic volumes are growing (no kidding!) but that they were still below the levels of 2006. I wonder if that meant locally, because I sure don't remember gridlock on the BNSF system in 2006, particularly in North Dakota. I sure don't remember any real problems with the EB as far as timekeeping goes.

Yesterday, while passing through Cheney on the way back to my mom's house from a day's outing in Spokane we noticed sidings packed with construction equipment and in fact a lot of work going on right in Cheney itself. Looked like they were geared up for a lot of work to be done. I wonder if BNSF is beginning to rue the day the then-BN abandoned (and removed the rails from)almost all of the 130 miles + of the old SP&S line from Spokane to Pasco in 1987. This line was used almost exclusively for eastbound BN traffic, (and eastbound EBs) and the current NP route was used for almost exclusively westbound traffic. I guess it's obvious though they couldn't foresee in 1987 the amount of traffic that the lines would generate 25+ years in the future.


----------



## montana mike

Ah, I knew it was to good to be true. #8 left MSP only 34 minutes late this AM, but has somehow managed to drop over 3 1/2 hours in Wisconsin today!!! It's almost as if the gremlins along this route coordinate their actions to make sure this poor train is at least 4 hours late almost every day into CHI no matter what!!

Oh, well,

:-(((


----------



## yarrow

gene poon just posted a bnsf press release on TO. highlights i saw include bi-directional running in north dakota through 9/30 and the fact that smilin' joe boardman is to visit the area later this week


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> I do believe at least some of the grain normally shipped by BNSF will move via the Canadian railroads this Spring and Summer just because of the extreme delays that BNSF has created.
> 
> This mess will indeed be fixed at some point, just sad to see how bad things have gotten.........


Alas, the Canadian railroads are in a similar mess.


----------



## CHamilton

Cars Pacific Cape and Beech Grove are behind me on 7(6) tonight. We left Chicago 20 minutes late, apparently due to issues getting the power hooked up, but we haven't lost much more time approaching LaCrosse. Oh, and I overheard one of the Chicago cart drivers say 'Hello, Mr. Gallagher.'


----------



## jimhudson

Sounds like the Amtrak Suits might actually be going up on the Hi-Line to take an eyeball look @ the ingoing Mess!

There was a thread on train orders that Joe Boardman was going up to check it out for himself! Wonder if Beech Grove has cut real dishes, flowers and gourmet food?


----------



## George Harris

RyanS said:


> That's why you only quote excerpts.
> 
> The bottom line:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Following our record capital investment in 2013 of $4 billion, we are making the most significant capital investment in our history of approximately $5 billion this year," said Carl Ice, president and chief executive officer of BNSF. "Our capital investments along the Northern Corridor are critical to expanding our capacity to support the region's rapidly growing economy, improving our ability to meet our customers' expectations and ensuring our railroad remains the safest mode of ground transportation for freight."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone doubts that they're spending a pile of money. The problem is they should have done this 3-4 years ago.
Click to expand...

Maybe their crystal ball needed a tuneup. Three to four years ago the surge in traffic was not anticipated. Also, where would the money be coming from? BNSF is not a government and cannot act like one in that they can choose to spend money they do not have.


----------



## Ryan

Berkshire Hathaway has plenty of money, they were just too tightfisted to spend it. There were plenty of BNSF folks saying the money needed to be spent and were told no.

The BH folks got greedy, and it's biting them in the ass.


----------



## Blackwolf

CHamilton said:


> Cars Pacific Cape and Beech Grove are behind me on 7(6) tonight. We left Chicago 20 minutes late, apparently due to issues getting the power hooked up, but we haven't lost much more time approaching LaCrosse. Oh, and I overheard one of the Chicago cart drivers say 'Hello, Mr. Gallagher.'


If you were on tomorrow's #7 I would suspect that the occasion was the official opening up of SPUD for Amtrak service. But perhaps, as others have stated, this really is an inspection of the line to see how things are. Keep us posted, Charlie!


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> The BH folks got greedy, and it's biting them in the ass.


Nah, they guessed wrong and it's biting in the ass.

If the demand for oil transport was so obvious years ago, why aren't there pipelines being constructed now? Several proposed pipelines didn't leave the blueprints because the proposers couldn't get guaranteed shipments, and therefore couldn't get funding. It's clear that the case for long-term demand for oil shipments from North Dakota is a hard one to make, at least with the people who matter. (That is, the ones with money.)

Couldn't the same be true for BNSF and CP?

It's way to easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.

Here's an interesting take on the issue.

For me the money quote is this:



> "Making a pipeline volume commitment is like getting married. Shipping by rail is like a one-night stand," said Baird's Mr. Bellamy. "Right now I suspect producers would rather stay bachelors."


----------



## CHamilton

7(6) is waiting for a freight somewhere south of St. Paul. The conductor announced that once it goes by, we will go to SPUD, where we will disconnect the private cars (15 minutes) then proceed to Midway for the usual smoke stop, the last scheduled passenger stop there. I believe that it will continue to be used for service stops for a while.


----------



## neroden

Whoa! Private cars at St. Paul Union? That's cool, but surprising to me, given that I'd heard in the past that private cars would be handled at Midway.

Per Amtrak's announcement, you're not quite the last scheduled passenger stop: 8(5) is going to be the last train to stop for passengers at Midway, in the morning.


----------



## gn2276

Two more cars are comming in from CHI they are the Amtrak Bussiness Cars Pacific Cape and Beech Grove with Boardman and party on board.


----------



## CHamilton

Yes, I should have said business cars rather than private cars. gn2276 is correct.


----------



## CHamilton

We finally got to SPUD after much stopping and starting. I never saw a freight, so I suspect that they haven't gotten the switching down yet. Now in the process of disconnecting the business cars, then we'll be off to Midway, probably around an hour late.

But I guess I can say that I was on the first passenger train to stop here for what? 40 years? even if we couldn't get off.


----------



## CHamilton

And we pulled into Midway Station at midnight, which seems appropriate. I won't miss its architecture or middle of nowhere location, but Midway kept Amtrak service going in the Twin Cities for a lot of years.


----------



## NW cannonball

Monday, saw a very clean westbound BNSF loco pulling a half-dozen plus BNSF biz cars (mostly named xx-PASS) rolling thru Park Junction here in MSP.

Wannna bet that consist got to SEA on time? Yeah, thought so.


----------



## PRR 60

The full BNSF Press Release:



> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 
> May 6, 2014
> 
> BNSF Contact
> 
> Amy McBeth
> 
> AMTRAK EMPIRE BUILDER DETOURS IN NORTH DAKOTA TO SPEED BNSF RAILWAY TRACK & SIGNAL IMPROVEMENTS
> 
> Chartered buses to represent westbound train in three cities; Amtrak CEO Boardman to visit affected region later this week
> 
> CHICAGO - Amtrak has agreed to a request by BNSF Railway to temporarily detour the westbound Empire Builder (Train 7/27) in North Dakota to speed the improvement of BNSF infrastructure between Fargo and Minot, N.D. Chartered buses will cover the missed Amtrak stations in Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby through Sept. 30, 2014.
> 
> The use of an alternate route for the westbound Empire Builder will enable BNSF to accomplish work in shorter time. The eastbound Empire Builder (Train 8/28) will operate normally and serve all scheduled stops. A Passenger Service Notice is attached.
> 
> Amtrak has been notifying affected passengers and public officials. In addition, Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman is visiting the affected region later this week and the lengthy delays the Empire Builder has incurred will be a major topic in meetings with leaders in each of these North Dakota communities.
> 
> "Local community and business leaders prize the Empire Builder and see Amtrak service as an important public transportation link," said DJ Stadtler, Amtrak Vice President, Operations. "BNSF needs to speed repairs and upgrades in order to return the Empire Builder to its previous reliability as fast as possible. We fully expect this work to be done by the end of September -- at the latest."
> 
> BNSF has announced it is investing approximately $400 million in North Dakota to expand, replace and maintain its infrastructure, and for the implementation of Positive Train Control (PTC).
> 
> This includes three siding projects between Grand Forks and Minot and four siding projects between Fargo and Grand Forks. Other work along the route involves installation of new turnouts, high speed surfacing/shoulder ballast cleaning, replacement of ties, rail relay and signal upgrades.
> 
> "We are committed to investing in our infrastructure to support the region's growing economy and to better serve all of our freight customers and Amtrak's passenger service," said DJ Mitchell, AVP Passenger Operations, BNSF Railway. "This plan will allow the work to occur more efficiently and will benefit everyone."
> 
> About BNSF Railway
> 
> BNSF Railway is one of North America's leading freight transportation companies operating on 32,500 route miles of track in 28 states and two Canadian provinces. BNSF is one of the top transporters of consumer goods, grain and agricultural products, low-sulfur coal, and industrial goods such as petroleum, chemicals, housing materials, food and beverages. BNSF's shipments help feed, clothe, supply, and power American homes and businesses every day. BNSF and its employees have developed one of the most technologically advanced, and efficient railroads in the industry. We work continuously to improve the value of the safety, service, energy, and environmental benefits we provide to our customers and the communities we serve. You can learn more about BNSF at www.BNSF.com.


----------



## Ryan

Ispolkom said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The BH folks got greedy, and it's biting them in the ass.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, they guessed wrong and it's biting in the ass.
> If the demand for oil transport was so obvious years ago, why aren't there pipelines being constructed now? Several proposed pipelines didn't leave the blueprints because the proposers couldn't get guaranteed shipments, and therefore couldn't get funding. It's clear that the case for long-term demand for oil shipments from North Dakota is a hard one to make, at least with the people who matter. (That is, the ones with money.)
Click to expand...

Your continued defense of BH baffles me. From way back on page 5:



montana mike said:


> He also stated, for the record, that senior management was well aware of the increased traffic forecasts well over two years ago and chose to "bank current profits" then and not invest in the infrastructure that was needed to support the forecasts at the time. He said this decision was made not by BNSF, but by their Berkshire Hathaway owners. Mr Buffett is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.


This wasn't a surprise nobody saw coming. The forecasts were there, the BNSF folks saw the need, asked for money and their corporate masters said "no". Now we all have to live with the consequences.


----------



## montana mike

It has been a matter of both great pride and frustration on the part of the long time BNSF people that no one at BH appeared to listen to their entreaties about what was happening to their system. I guess when you are part of a much larger corporate entity, whose main reason for existence is profits for the owner(s) and not planning for the future to serve the customers this sort of thing will happen. It is interesting to note that a number of BH "suits" who were initially put in charge over BNSF segments have been removed in favor of "rail" people over the past year. A tacit recognition that perhaps BH made a big mistake in trying to run a railroad without the requisite experience and understanding of what was needed.

Oh, well. The long delays go on--both ways--and will do so for the foreseeable future. I have been told that once all of the work has been completed (18-24 months) that the hi-Line will function much more reliably as it once did for many years........


----------



## CHamilton

PRR 60 said:


> The full BNSF Press Release:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 
> May 6, 2014
> 
> BNSF Contact
> 
> Amy McBeth
> 
> AMTRAK EMPIRE BUILDER DETOURS IN NORTH DAKOTA TO SPEED BNSF RAILWAY TRACK & SIGNAL IMPROVEMENTS
> 
> Chartered buses to represent westbound train in three cities; Amtrak CEO Boardman to visit affected region later this week
> 
> CHICAGO - Amtrak has agreed to a request by BNSF Railway to temporarily detour the westbound Empire Builder (Train 7/27) in North Dakota to speed the improvement of BNSF infrastructure between Fargo and Minot, N.D. Chartered buses will cover the missed Amtrak stations in Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby through Sept. 30, 2014. .
Click to expand...

I am on 7 west of Fargo now, going slowly past lots of freight. Google maps says we're North of Valley City. So is this the regular route or the detour? No announcement has been made on the train yet.


----------



## Ryan

Detour. The regular route follows I-29 out of Fargo up to Grand Forks.


----------



## TraneMan

CHamilton said:


> I am on 7 west of Fargo now, going slowly past lots of freight. Google maps says we're North of Valley City. So is this the regular route or the detour? No announcement has been made on the train yet.


you are on the Detour KO Sub.


----------



## CHamilton

Yes, we are now equidistant between Devils Lake and Jamestown. I think this is new mileage for me, although it's hardly rare these days. And it has better cell service than the regular route does!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Charlie, you've been on so many trains the past 2 weeks, it's not surprising you're lost.


----------



## CHamilton

I'm not lost, but the EB might be 

And a question for John B. from my friend in St Paul :

'Interesting: amtrak.com shows the arrival/departure times from Midway last night -- arrived 11:58, departed 12:20 (we heard the whistle at departure from Midway). statusmaps.net apparently shows the arrival/departure times from SPUD -- arrived 11:11, departed 11:36. Must be doing some stuff behind the scenes with station codes.'


----------



## CHamilton

Oh, joy. The crew of 7(6) just announced that we 'may' make Minot before they run out of hours. That may happen as long as we don't get delayed by freight traffic. If we make it, we'll be 2 hours late. If we don't, we'll lose another half hour.


----------



## CHamilton

'The BNSF dispatchers have managed to part the sea for us... Arriving Minot, 10 minutes.'


----------



## CHamilton

And after Minot, now we are being told to expect more delays due to freight.


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> Your continued defense of BH baffles me. From way back on page 5:
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> He also stated, for the record, that senior management was well aware of the increased traffic forecasts well over two years ago and chose to "bank current profits" then and not invest in the infrastructure that was needed to support the forecasts at the time. He said this decision was made not by BNSF, but by their Berkshire Hathaway owners. Mr Buffett is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> This wasn't a surprise nobody saw coming. The forecasts were there, the BNSF folks saw the need, asked for money and their corporate masters said "no". Now we all have to live with the consequences.
Click to expand...

I'm not defending BNSF. I'm saying that they are acting the way the railroad always has. They act with impunity, concerned solely with making money regardless of its effects on customers, as long as those customers have no recourse.

My problems with the *montana mike *quote are two-fold. 1) what does "stated for the record" mean for a quote of an anonymous person by another anonymous person on a railfan Web site? I'm a pedant, so I often supply links to back up my statement. 2) the statement isn't exactly correct. BNSF *has *invested in its infrastructure. It's just that most of that investment was on the southern transcon.

BNSF has a limited amount of money to invest in capital improvements. Its operating divisions have nearly limitless demands, which, I am sure, are all backed up with traffic forecasts. Management has to choose, and I still don't see that they haven't made the right choice.

1) BNSF makes money on all this new oil traffic. Sure it moves slowly, but what choice do the oil shippers have? CP wouldn't be any faster, I'll bet

2) BNSF continues to make money from bulk shippers, who have no other choice. What can a grain elevator operator in Stanley do? Ship grain by truck at today's diesel fuel prices?

3) I'm sure that there's some diversion of container traffic from the Hi Line, but wouldn't much of that be diverted to the southern transcon? BNSF makes money either way.

I still think that oil traffic is a temporary phenomenon on the Hi-Line. Either the Baaken field will go bust (not the first time that's happened in North Dakota), or pipelines will get built to transport the oil. In either case rail transport won't last and BNSF is smart to maximize their revenues while not overbuilding the infrastructure for the long term. Remember that quote, that shipping oil by train is like a one-night stand. Can you blame BNSF for not buying an expensive wedding dress if she might be jilted at the altar?

BNSF and its predecessors never offered better service than they had to. Why should they start now?

If I were a shareholder of Berkshire Hathaway, I'd approve of how they acted. Instead, I'm a unhappy frequent passenger on the Empire Builder. Just because my interests are being harmed, though, doesn't mean I can't see why BNSF acts the way it does.


----------



## jebr

At Union Depot, a celebration of a failed transportation option



> Today is a big day at Union Depot where Amtrak will make its first passenger stop since the time when it was actually a dependable mode of transportation.
> 
> For the sake of the TV crews covering the event, Amtrak brought in a train to show what a passenger train looks like.
> Theoretically, the party could’ve just waited for the eastbound Empire Builder, the only passenger train that zips through Saint Paul twice a day, but it’s missing in action. Again.
> [...]
> Make no mistake. Union Depot is a magnificent edifice and the renovation opens up tremendous possibilities – commuter rail from the southeastern suburbs, and an interconnection with local bus routes and light rail. But today’s Amtrak celebration is more about nostalgia than possibilities. The local politicians said all the right things today, but none of them is ever going to actually take the Empire Builder, unless they’re going someplace they really don’t need to be.
> [...]
> If you wanted to take a train from Boston to New York this afternoon, you have nine different trains you can take and you can be there faster than the time it takes the Empire Builder to travel to Saint Paul from St. Cloud. Three days a week, the passenger load on the Acela northeast corridor train is 100%.
> Here? The Empire Builder traffic is down 15 percent from a year ago.


----------



## Ryan

Ispolkom said:


> I'm not defending BNSF. I'm saying that they are acting the way the railroad always has. They act with impunity, concerned solely with making money regardless of its effects on customers, as long as those customers have no recourse.


You're still missing my point. I'm not saying that you're defending BNSF. You're defending Berkshire Hathaway. That's an exceedingly important distinction.

BNSF is *NOT* acting "the way the railroad always has". The BNSF people saw this coming and wanted to do something about it. The non-railroad people ignored the experts and said "no".

If I were a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder, I'd be pissed. I'd want them to listen to the experts that work for them and take their advice, which is what it finally sounds like is happening. If they had listened years ago, this would be a lot less messy. There would be a lot more freight moving, and they'd be making lots more money.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'd agree that it really is about the money as it always is but since Railroads are such a special kind of business, the BH Finance Sharks should have listened to the RR Suits and things wouldn't be in such a mess !

Warren Buffet didn't become so wealthy by putting up with incompetent execs so I'm sure he's kicked ass and taken names and as Ryan said it will be made right but it will take time and well all suffer until then!


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> BNSF is *NOT* acting "the way the railroad always has". The BNSF people saw this coming and wanted to do something about it. The non-railroad people ignored the experts and said "no".
> If I were a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder, I'd be pissed. I'd want them to listen to the experts that work for them and take their advice, which is what it finally sounds like is happening. If they had listened years ago, this would be a lot less messy. There would be a lot more freight moving, and they'd be making lots more money.


Objectively, they are acting the way they always have. Great Northern and Burlington Northern after them always provided the minimum of service at the maximum of cost to the shipper. Look at the network itself. The branch lines running north to the Canadian border, the so-called Picket Fence, were only built after the Soo Line built its Wheat Route parallel to the Hi Line. The Surrey cut-off was only built after the Soo Line built a similar line. As long as there was no competition, there was no investment.

Every time there is a big harvest the railroad is tardy with the delivery of grain cars, because shippers have no choice. I can find you decades of pictures of grain piled next to overfilled elevators, long before there were oil shipments. Why should it be any different with shipments of a different product?

Given the way the railroads treated the state as a colony, it's not accidental that North Dakota's PUC was traditionally very antirail, and that the Nonpartisan League called for a state takeover of the Great Northern.

How can you say that BNSF should have diverted investment from the southern transcon to the Hi Line? How much greater would be the ROI?

How do you know that the present surge in oil shipments isn't temporary? Why won't pipelines be built, if there are significant long-term prospects for oil shipments? Is it in BNSF's interest to overbuild the Hi Line infrastructure if the oil shipments by rail are going to decline? What will be the ROI then?

It's not clear to me if this is a Havre vs. Fort Worth thing, or a Fort Worth vs. Omaha thing. One thing I'll bet, though, is that it's a matter of balance sheets that we don't have access to.


----------



## Ryan

Ispolkom said:


> How can you say that BNSF should have diverted investment from the southern transcon to the Hi Line? How much greater would be the ROI?


Where did I say such a thing?



> How do you know that the present surge in oil shipments isn't temporary?


Personally, I don't. But the trained professionals whose job this is believed that it wasn't temporary and that money needed to be invested more than 2 years ago. That's good enough for me. Now they are in objectively worse shape. They still have to invest the money, they're probably paying a premium for the rush nature of the jobs, and they're missing out on revenue while doing it. If the suits at BH had listened to the railroad people years ago, things would undoubtedly be better. But these are the things that happen when you prioritize short term profits over everything else.


----------



## CHamilton

Re Jeb's link several posts back:

Of course, the things that Mr. Collins says are true. But what does he propose to do about it? <crickets> Have everyone stay in their cars and their airplanes until every ounce of fossil fuel is gone, then freeze for lack of propane like the poor woman in today's Minot Daily News?

I'm tired of seeing these sorts of comments from smug do-nothings. Close this site down and call your elected representatives. Tell them that we need rail options that work!


----------



## CHamilton

7(6) just left Wolf Point 3:45 late. We crossed all of ND at 59 mph or less. There weren't too many stops, but it's evident that we were behind freights the whole way across the state.


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you say that BNSF should have diverted investment from the southern transcon to the Hi Line? How much greater would be the ROI?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say such a thing?
Click to expand...

You wrote, "The BNSF people saw this coming and wanted to do something about it. The non-railroad people ignored the experts and said "no"." The money to something about it had to come from somewhere. BNSF has a finite pool of money for route improvements. More for the Hi Line means less for someplace else. Where would that place be, except the southern transcon?



> They still have to invest the money, they're probably paying a premium for the rush nature of the jobs, and t*hey're missing out on revenue while doing it.* If the suits at BH had listened to the railroad people years ago, things would undoubtedly be better. But these are the things that happen when you prioritize short term profits over everything else.


How are they missing out on revenue? How else is the oil being shipped out of North Dakota? Sure, CP gets some, but they looked to maxed out at a very low rate. BNSF can improve its track at its own schedule, and ship out stuff at whatever rate it finds most advantageous to itself. If shippers don't like it they can either get the government involved or go and pound sand. Grain shippers have done both for decades, with mixed results.

I'll agree that if BNSF had invested money earlier things would look better on the Hi Line, but would they have made as good a return on investment not just now, when the boom is on, but in decades to come? I sure don't know, and I can't see how one could say, without looking at BNSF's books.

One thing I do know, is that the west is littered with the remains of boom railroads that went bust.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I've been in business running my own show in different areas for a long time. In fact, all of my adult life and some of my teenage hood. So let me resolve this little concept that involves misunderstanding the way business works. Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly listed holding and investment company. They are owned by, I suspect, millions of people. Including me, by the way.

As such a company, Berkshire Hathaway is not a railroad, or a power generation company, a seller of insurance (GEICO), a maker of boots (Chippewa), or manufacturer and seller of what is both the best and perhaps the second most overpriced (after the Rainbow) vacuum cleaner (Kirby). They aren't in business to do any of that stuff. They don't focus, nor do they particularly micromanage any of those businesses. They are in business to make money for their shareholders. Period.

Managers are in business to maximize production based upon metrics and predictions. That is what they are supposed to do. Each manager's personal job is to fight for what they believe is best for their division. The job of the person in charge of a company's job is to decide which divisions get what. The job of Warren Buffet and the so-called Suits is to decide which of those companies under Berkshire Hathaway's umbrella get what in reinvested profits. A percentage of that profit needs to be skimmed off the top and returned to the investors. Dividends are why people invest in it. I don't know why you think there is such greed in a little old lady who put a portion of the life savings she has in her retirement fund in Berkshire Hathaway getting the dividends she expects and desperately needs to pay her bills.

It is the job of the "suits" to make sure their investors, which include little old ladies who either own BH stock or own shares of mutual funds who own BH stock, get the money their investors expect when the company has made money on the scale to which it has been accustomed. After that is taken off, the rest of the pot gets reinvested. I'm sure Chippewa wants money to build new boot designs, Kirby wants to replace the bloody awful Sentia with something more akin to their awesome Legend, GEICO wants to make sure there are more lizards reminding you that 15 minutes get you 15% or more, and so on ad nausea.

With a limited pot of money to reinvest in your myriad companies, and all of them proffering good, meaningful, useful projects, which they claim will provide great profit, which one do you put your money in? Come on, decide.

You don't know for sure which investments make sense and which ones don't. You have to make an educated guess. Sometimes you guess wrong. Thats not greed, thats just a mistake, or rather, a bad guess.


----------



## CHamilton

The above is why privately owned railroads and the 'public good' of a passenger rail system have always been uneasy bedfellows at best, and fierce antagonists at worst. Nothing short of a separately owned, exclusive passenger rail network will change that. But since such a system is a fantasy, we have to do our best with what we have. It's about carrots and sticks : providing incentives to the private railroads while enforcing accountability.


----------



## CHamilton

7(6) just left Havre 4 hours late. The freight yards there are packed, with stack trains on every track. We've seen lots of tankers, too.


----------



## PRR 60

Berkshire Hathaway (BRK) does not and never has paid shareholders a dividend. No portion of profits is returned to investors. Although it is a "public" company, Warren Buffett holds 34.4% of the aggregate voting rights of the Class A and Class B shares. Directors and executives, as a group, hold 38.5% of the voting rights. While little old ladies and even some rail advocates may own shares directly or through institutional ownership, the BRK show is run by Buffett.

Interestingly, BRK reported what analysts felt was disappointing first quarter earnings. Reduced profits in railroad operations was noted as a driver. I have no idea if that is in any way related to the issues in North Dakota. Don't feel too sorry for BRK or Warren. BRK still had net income of $4.7 billion for the three months.

By the way, one share of BRK Class A stock will set you back a cool $191,550 based on today's close (no, I did not miss a decimal point). Warren owns 336,000 of those bad boys - market value a tad over $64 billion.


----------



## TraneMan

Ok, what's going on here? I never seen the train go this way before?? 


-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Direction running with a bus make the missed stops.

.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

PRR 60 said:


> Berkshire Hathaway (BRK) does not and never has paid shareholders a dividend. No portion of profits is returned to investors. Although it is a "public" company, Warren Buffett holds 34.4% of the aggregate voting rights of the Class A and Class B shares. Directors and executives, as a group, hold 38.5% of the voting rights. While little old ladies and even some rail advocates may own shares directly or through institutional ownership, the BRK show is run by Buffett.Interestingly, BRK reported what analysts felt was disappointing first quarter earnings. Reduced profits in railroad operations was noted as a driver. I have no idea if that is in any way related to the issues in North Dakota. Don't feel too sorry for BRK or Warren. BRK still had net income of $4.7 billion for the three months.By the way, one share of BRK Class A stock will set you back a cool $191,550 based on today's close (no, I did not miss a decimal point). Warren owns 336,000 of those bad boys - market value a tad over $64 billion.


Don't you just hate Facts.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Stuff that I have read, but have not fact check myself.

Last year it was report BNSF gave (BRK) 1.5 billion in dividends. That a lot of double tracking that is needed today, system wide not just on the high-line.

It was also report (BRK) is sitting on more than 10 billion cash. No need to borrow money on the open market when your parent company is that cash flush.

The problem is greed. Pure and simple greed.


----------



## gatelouse

Folks, enjoy this brief break from the economics discussion for this....


----------



## mwmnp

TraneMan said:


> Ok, what's going on here? I never seen the train go this way before??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1399520865.351112.jpg
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


Looks like the westbound EB took main two into St. Paul, whereas normally it would have taken main one (the red line).

For those unaware, that image is from the St. Paul Park/Cottage Grove area southeast of St. Paul. The two mains are separated by over a mile here because technically CP owns one set of tracks while BNSF owns the other, and both lines were built at different times. Both tracks are operated as one entity, effectively creating a double track line out of two single track lines.


----------



## jebr

And now 8(6) is stuck in New York Mills with a crew going out to catch it from St. Cloud. Almost tempted to cut my losses and head back home instead of going to SPUD today.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## CHamilton

And 7(6) arrived in Spokane at 5 am, just a few minutes less than 2 hours late.


----------



## CHamilton

Just pulled out of Spokane 2 hours late. We are now being told ETA Seattle 1:30.


----------



## TraneMan

jebr said:


> And now 8(6) is stuck in New York Mills with a crew going out to catch it from St. Cloud. Almost tempted to cut my losses and head back home instead of going to SPUD today.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


That sucks. :-(

Did they say why it was stuck up there??


----------



## jebr

TraneMan said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now 8(6) is stuck in New York Mills with a crew going out to catch it from St. Cloud. Almost tempted to cut my losses and head back home instead of going to SPUD today.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> That sucks. :-(
> 
> Did they say why it was stuck up there??
Click to expand...

I didn't hear why.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> If I were a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder, I'd be pissed.


I am a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder, and I am pissed.
But there are things I'm more pissed about. Warren Buffett has been burning shareholder money by buying Wells Fargo stock. Wells Fargo is actually a criminal operation which hands out manuals for creating forged legal documents to its staff (Google "Wells Fargo foreclosure fraud manual"). They've been caught violating court orders repeatedly in order to charge fraudulent fees to their borrowers. Wells Fargo is actually insolvent and covering it up by fraud and theft. This isn't a good investment. Buffett is not doing his due diligence any more. I have to consider whether to dump the stock.


----------



## neroden

Green Maned Lion said:


> I don't know why you think there is such greed in a little old lady who put a portion of the life savings she has in her retirement fund in Berkshire Hathaway getting the dividends she expects and desperately needs to pay her bills.


You're a bit confused. Berkshire Hathaway doesn't pay dividends. There was a shareholder ballot measure asking them to at this year's annual meeting, but Warren refused.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> It is interesting to note that a number of BH "suits" who were initially put in charge over BNSF segments have been removed in favor of "rail" people over the past year.


Good sign.


----------



## CHamilton

7(6) is waiting at Interbay for train 8 to leave SEA. Both trains will need to back up, since one of the main lines in the tunnel is closed for track work. The conductor announced that the technical term for this is a 'kerfuffle,' although I suspect he had another term in mind.


----------



## George Harris

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting to note that a number of BH "suits" who were initially put in charge over BNSF segments have been removed in favor of "rail" people over the past year.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sign.
Click to expand...

Whenever you see someone in the business world do a takeover of a business that is not in or at the least closely related to their business and living in similar economic realities, and then dump their management in favor of their own, treat it like the redneck joke when the guy says, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this." Back way up. In other words, if you have stock in either one, dump it fast because a complete screw up is coming.


----------



## Blackwolf

CHamilton said:


> 7(6) is waiting at Interbay for train 8 to leave SEA. Both trains will need to back up, since one of the main lines in the tunnel is closed for track work. The conductor announced that the technical term for this is a 'kerfuffle,' although I suspect he had another term in mind.


Hehehe... In my line of work, I believe the term is "Charlie Foxtrot" (no offense, Charlie! :giggle: )


----------



## zephyr17

George Harris said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting to note that a number of BH "suits" who were initially put in charge over BNSF segments have been removed in favor of "rail" people over the past year.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whenever you see someone in the business world do a takeover of a business that is not in or at the least closely related to their business and living in similar economic realities, and then dump their management in favor of their own, treat it like the redneck joke when the guy says, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this." Back way up. In other words, if you have stock in either one, dump it fast because a complete screw up is coming.
Click to expand...

BH doesn't really have a "business" per se other than being a holding company. BH already owned an incredibly diverse portfolio of companies before acquiring BNSF, from See's Candy to GEICO. BH originally, before Buffett, was textile manufacturing company. Buffett went heavily into insurance, then into anything that was profitable, undervalued and well-managed in Buffett's and Munger's analysis.

Buffet's approach has always been to let the existing management run the company, stand back, and leave it alone. Part of their acquistion strategy is that they evaluate the management in place and consider that management part of the assets they are buying. I know BNSF's management was left in place. BH itself has a tiny, tiny staff, deliberately, and really doesn't have the capacity or the desire to dig in and closely run any of it's acquired companies. It doesn't have very many "suits".

So this talk about BH interfering with BNSF isn't consistent with Warren Buffett's MO. Not to say it isn't true, I know no details here, but it is certainly inconsistent with Buffett's philosphy and track record and makes me wonder about that theory.

One thing that is generally expected is that every concern owned by BH take care of its own capital needs. Getting money from BH happens, but it is more the exception than the rule. BNSF not getting additional funds from BH beyond what it had access to on its own, and prioritizing accordingly, rightly or wrongly, I would believe.

Disclaimer, I bought BH stock when buying B shares became affordable with the big split they did to acquire BNSF. In many ways BH is more like a mutual fund managed by Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger than a regular company. That's how I consider it, anyway.


----------



## George Harris

zephyr17 said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting to note that a number of BH "suits" who were initially put in charge over BNSF segments have been removed in favor of "rail" people over the past year.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whenever you see someone in the business world do a takeover of a business that is not in or at the least closely related to their business and living in similar economic realities, and then dump their management in favor of their own, treat it like the redneck joke when the guy says, 'Here, hold my beer and watch this." Back way up. In other words, if you have stock in either one, dump it fast because a complete screw up is coming.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Buffet's approach has always been to let the existing management run the company, stand back, and leave it alone. Part of their acquistion strategy is that they evaluate the management in place and consider that management part of the assets they are buying. I know BNSF's management was left in place. BH itself has a tiny, tiny staff, deliberately, and really doesn't have the capacity or the desire to dig in and closely run any of it's acquired companies. It doesn't have very many "suits".
> 
> So this talk about BH interfering with BNSF isn't consistent with Warren Buffett's MO. Not to say it isn't true, I know no details here, but it is certainly inconsistent with Buffett's philosphy and track record and makes me wonder about that theory.
> 
> One thing that is generally expected is that every concern owned by BH take care of its own capital needs. Getting money from BH happens, but it is more the exception than the rule. BNSF not getting additional funds from BH beyond what it had access to on its own, and prioritizing accordingly, rightly or wrongly, I would believe.
Click to expand...

Zypher: I think you have it right. I was mainly commenting on Montana Mike's statement. My knowledge of BNSF is relatively limited. with that related to operations to being about a once a month passenger on the San Joaquin trains, where their ability to move a heavy volume of traffic over a mostly single track line is fairly impressive.


----------



## TraneMan

A few video clips.

http://www.kstp.com/article/12303/?vid=5096663&v=1

I knew this one was going to happen after I saw the morning show saying something along the line of "We are live and waiting for the 8am train to be here...."

http://www.kstp.com/article/12303/?vid=5095782&v=1


----------



## neroden

zephyr17 said:


> BH doesn't really have a "business" per se other than being a holding company. BH already owned an incredibly diverse portfolio of companies before acquiring BNSF, from See's Candy to GEICO. BH originally, before Buffett, was textile manufacturing company. Buffett went heavily into insurance, then into anything that was profitable, undervalued and well-managed in Buffett's and Munger's analysis.
> 
> Buffet's approach has always been to let the existing management run the company, stand back, and leave it alone. Part of their acquistion strategy is that they evaluate the management in place and consider that management part of the assets they are buying. I know BNSF's management was left in place. BH itself has a tiny, tiny staff, deliberately, and really doesn't have the capacity or the desire to dig in and closely run any of it's acquired companies. It doesn't have very many "suits".
> 
> So this talk about BH interfering with BNSF isn't consistent with Warren Buffett's MO. Not to say it isn't true, I know no details here, but it is certainly inconsistent with Buffett's philosphy and track record and makes me wonder about that theory.


Agreed. The best hypothesis I've seen was that the "suits" at BNSF wanted to impress Warren Buffett and mistakenly thought that in order to do that, they should continue spewing out the same level (or more) of dividends to BH as before, even if it hurt their capital needs.



> One thing that is generally expected is that every concern owned by BH take care of its own capital needs. Getting money from BH happens, but it is more the exception than the rule. BNSF not getting additional funds from BH beyond what it had access to on its own, and prioritizing accordingly, rightly or wrongly, I would believe.


The problem is that BNSF continued to spin money out to BH. This was an error. The correct thing to do was to keep all the income internally for capital needs. Previously, when it floated on the stock market, BNSF had to issue a dividend for market reasons; it doesn't any more, and so BNSF should now only send money "upstairs" to BH after taking care of its own capital needs. Perhaps this shift in mentality was difficult for the people running BNSF.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Amtrak is really starting to confuse me.

There are now TWO official EB schedules on amtrak.com - one labeled "effective April 15, 2014" (the new, padded schedule) and another labeled "effective June 9, 2014" (reverting back to the old schedule). I'm fairly certain that only the April / adjusted schedule was there until recently. This makes it _appear_ that things are now going back to normal on June 9. However, Amtrak has clearly moved the "delayed" schedule past June 9 (trying to book on the website shows the delays into effect through June 15th at the moment), and we all know that there's almost zero chance that the old schedule will be put back in place.

I don't understand why they would update the site with old information that is already out of date & is, in fact, less accurate than what they already had posted.


----------



## zephyr17

neroden said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BH doesn't really have a "business" per se other than being a holding company. BH already owned an incredibly diverse portfolio of companies before acquiring BNSF, from See's Candy to GEICO. BH originally, before Buffett, was textile manufacturing company. Buffett went heavily into insurance, then into anything that was profitable, undervalued and well-managed in Buffett's and Munger's analysis.
> 
> Buffet's approach has always been to let the existing management run the company, stand back, and leave it alone. Part of their acquistion strategy is that they evaluate the management in place and consider that management part of the assets they are buying. I know BNSF's management was left in place. BH itself has a tiny, tiny staff, deliberately, and really doesn't have the capacity or the desire to dig in and closely run any of it's acquired companies. It doesn't have very many "suits".
> 
> So this talk about BH interfering with BNSF isn't consistent with Warren Buffett's MO. Not to say it isn't true, I know no details here, but it is certainly inconsistent with Buffett's philosphy and track record and makes me wonder about that theory.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. The best hypothesis I've seen was that the "suits" at BNSF wanted to impress Warren Buffett and mistakenly thought that in order to do that, they should continue spewing out the same level (or more) of dividends to BH as before, even if it hurt their capital needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that is generally expected is that every concern owned by BH take care of its own capital needs. Getting money from BH happens, but it is more the exception than the rule. BNSF not getting additional funds from BH beyond what it had access to on its own, and prioritizing accordingly, rightly or wrongly, I would believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is that BNSF continued to spin money out to BH. This was an error. The correct thing to do was to keep all the income internally for capital needs. Previously, when it floated on the stock market, BNSF had to issue a dividend for market reasons; it doesn't any more, and so BNSF should now only send money "upstairs" to BH after taking care of its own capital needs. Perhaps this shift in mentality was difficult for the people running BNSF.
Click to expand...

THAT makes sense from what I know of BH. Not that BH intruded, but BNSF management didn't take the cues for new world. Buffett expects a profit, but only after a well managed concern takes care of itself. That's part of being "well managed." That's the only way BH's very hands off style works.


----------



## zephyr17

D.P. Roberts said:


> Amtrak is really starting to confuse me.


Only starting to confuse you?  You're lucky. They confuse me all the time. The only consistency is inconsistency.


----------



## montana mike

zephyr17 said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is really starting to confuse me.
> 
> 
> 
> Only starting to confuse you?  You're lucky. They confuse me all the time. The only consistency is inconsistency.
Click to expand...

LOL

Given the fact that over the past three weeks the average delay into CHI has been 257 minutes for #8, I don't see how it would be remotely possible to go back to the old schedule and in effect lose another three hours on top of the already dismal performance under this new schedule. The Empire Builder would routinely be arriving around midnight almost every night in CHI. As several folks said, all the padding has done is allow the BNSF dispatchers to defer to the freights and keep the EB's at almost the same pace as before the extra 3 hours were tacked on to the eastbound schedule. Westbound the delays are not much better btw.

Very frustrating!!

:-(


----------



## AngusThompsom

All this discussion is getting me excited for my trip to Boston, the first leg is on the EB.


----------



## montana mike

Enjoy the many extra hours on the train--overall it is relaxing and much of the scenery is delightful. We used to be able to say have fun with the Wine and Cheese event as well, but then that's another topic of conversation!! Sounds like you will be connecting with the LSL. Even with the very late arrivals the EB does manage to make that connection, albeit with a little help by delaying the LSL from time to time to make sure all of the connecting pax make that train.


----------



## yarrow

8(10) grazed a car west of wenatchee this evening which set it back 90 minutes while the authorities arrived and investigated. no injuries,afaik


----------



## AngusThompsom

We booked back in April for our July trip, we got a room but are having "fun" discussing the timing of Amtraks "cutbacks" and our trip. 

I haven't been on the EB in 20 years and wasn't able to afford a room then.

I appreciate everyone's contribution in this forum, and look forward to doing the same in July!

Can we still get ice?


----------



## amamba

AngusThompsom said:


> We booked back in April for our July trip, we got a room but are having "fun" discussing the timing of Amtraks "cutbacks" and our trip.
> 
> I haven't been on the EB in 20 years and wasn't able to afford a room then.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's contribution in this forum, and look forward to doing the same in July!
> 
> Can we still get ice?


Yes, your attendant in the sleeper will have a styrofoam cooler full of ice for you to use.


----------



## NW cannonball

Ice, yes. Connections to the LD network, no, no, no.

Last couple months, daughter went MSP-SEA, and departed one day early (she had the free time) to make her event in SEA. Just now, she took the dog MSP to CHI to catch the Capitol Limited, because the EB does not connect any more.

The "captive customers" on the Hi-Line between MSP and SPK will ride the EB because there are no reasonably fast and cheap alternatives (same for the freight customers in the same range).

Here in MSP - the Empire Builder is the only Amtrak service. It is a severely damaged service, just like everyone on this long, long, thread has been saying for a long while. I love the ride, and the scenery, and all the places I can visit east or west from MSP on the EB. But - this route is broken, and will likely stay broken, for a couple years yet.

It is sorrow.


----------



## andersone

Well Angus I haven't been on the EB since 1973,,, and i said the right thing to the right woman at the wrong time and do I have a story about the LIbby station,,, i hope my trip to GPK in August will have far less drama,,, not only will she who must be obeyed factor into the equation,,, but


----------



## TraneMan

Wonder what happen to #8 today in MT? Was doing pretty good now after 4 hours late.


----------



## Phil S

TraneMan said:


> Wonder what happen to #8 today in MT? Was doing pretty good now after 4 hours late.


Looks like #7 got held up in about the same place. Probably just too much traffic. Nothing on TO.


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> Wonder what happen to #8 today in MT? Was doing pretty good now after 4 hours late.


Yup, sad to see that things can get so congested that it takes hours and hours for the dispatchers to untangle things. Sort of like the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago in the evening rush hour!!


----------



## Ispolkom

NW cannonball said:


> The "captive customers" on the Hi-Line between MSP and SPK will ride the EB because there are no reasonably fast and cheap alternatives (same for the freight customers in the same range).


That's pretty much it.


----------



## montana mike

Ispolkom said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "captive customers" on the Hi-Line between MSP and SPK will ride the EB because there are no reasonably fast and cheap alternatives (same for the freight customers in the same range).
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much it.
Click to expand...

I would have agreed 100% with this until recently. A few of Agro interests in ND and MT have gotten "creative" lately and have worked on alternatives to BNSF to move their products. This isn't a "palace revolt" by any means, but it does demonstrate that the railroad cannot just take their customers for granted. If the mega delays continue for these agricultural folks I would expect more and more will try other ways to move their products to market.

The pax, however, are pretty much stuck with the Empire Builder as long distance transportation. There are some airports, but fares are high and the drives to these elections often quite long.


----------



## The Whistler

Today the EB #8 train is over 6 1/2 hours late arriving into Chicago. This type of continued gross lateness is very unacceptable and something needs to be done about it.


----------



## zephyr17

The Whistler said:


> Today the EB #8 train is over 6 1/2 hours late arriving into Chicago. This type of continued gross lateness is very unacceptable and something needs to be done about it.


Um, what?


----------



## fairviewroad

zephyr17 said:


> The Whistler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today the EB #8 train is over 6 1/2 hours late arriving into Chicago. This type of continued gross lateness is very unacceptable and something needs to be done about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, what?
Click to expand...

I think that technically, "gross lateness" only applies to trains that are more than 12 hours late.


----------



## greatcats

Six and a half hours late must be a new development. How revolting! Never heard of such a thing! Heads should roll!


----------



## montana mike

LOL

Now looking like a likely arrival in CHI after midnight!!!!!

Arrgh.


----------



## greatcats

Now due at 12:38am, nearly nine hours late. Mr. Boardman must have ticked off BNSF this week. :angry: Hmmmm....


----------



## montana mike

Another brutal day for the Empire Builder to be sure-ugh!

:-(


----------



## Rob Creighton

...and when you arrive in Chicago after midnight, be assured Amtrak Police will be there to greet you and kick you out of the station into the street because "station closes at midnight." Happened to me on one of the coldest Chicago nights this winter on a very late train from Michigan. Missed my connecting Burlington Northern train by two minutes. Saw it's tail lights depart the station.


----------



## montana mike

#8 arrived 1:37 AM today!!! well over 9 hours late. Wow, that must have been a heck of an adventure!


----------



## Ryan

I disagree. Having the same conversation across a bunch of different threads is a time consuming pain in the neck.

If a newbie (or non-newbie in Dennis' case) has a question, they can ask it and get it answered before the thread lock. Dennis' question was answered, and the other thread was just covering the same ground we've already discussed here.

I think the staff got it exactly right letting the other thread live long enough to get the specific question answered and then locking it up.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

This thread has as much irrelevant and outdated information as it does useful advice. How is someone who shows up today supposed to know where the outdated information ends and the useful information begins? It just makes the subject more confusing than it has to be. Which wouldn't be that big of a deal if other threads weren't being locked so all such discussions could be dumped back into this unmanaged mess. Either curate it or allow it to fade away. Keeping this tired old thread on life support isn't making anything easier for newbies, which is who I thought we were trying to cater to.


----------



## montana mike

A challenge to be sure. The EB's troubles won't go away any time soon, and as we saw last night, aren't really getting much better, so do we start an "Empire Builder-Part II-The Sequel" or just continue to report and discuss the trials and tribulations on the original thread?


----------



## rusty spike

Since this "EB Mess" is going to carry on into the forseeable future, perhaps the Empire Builder should have its own *forum.  *


----------



## dlagrua

In view of the logjam on the BNSF segment I just wonder why Amtrak has not requested an adjustment to he EB schedule to better insure the connections at CHI. The #8 leaves SEA at 4:40 PM. If the departure time at SEA can be move to say 1:00 PM this would save a whole bunch of travelers a lot of grief. Re-scheduling could offer a short term solution.

The other question not addressed was at what point in the Eastbound trip does it become evident that the train will be X hours late? It would probably be in Montana but it could be at another point on the line. If you know the train will be late, it allows you to call Amtrak to change your travel schedule and/or to try and find hotel accommodations for the evening.

I wish that we would have known about all this 8 months ago when we booked this trip. This is our first trip West on the EB and it appears that it may be a challenging one. At least the scenery will be nice!


----------



## JayPea

They did adjust, supposedly temporarily, the eastbound departure times from both Seattle and Portland to 3 hours earlier.


----------



## greatcats

You must have been away from this website for awhile. That is what has been done ( 1:40pm ) but it does not seem to have helped much. It is still a mess. I am interested in what may have come out of Boardman's visit last week. Probably got yessed to death by some corporate hacks.


----------



## JayPea

And the trains are still hours late.


----------



## montana mike

And I see today that #8 has managed to lose around two hours in eastern MN and WI-and area where it historically was able to do a decent timekeeping job in the past. It lost about three hours in this area yesterday. Must be track work going on there.

Bummer.


----------



## Henry Kisor

Yesterday's No. 7 arrived at Seattle FIVE MINUTES EARLY. Therefore this thread is now outdated and can be locked. Right?


----------



## montana mike

Henry Kisor said:


> Yesterday's No. 7 arrived at Seattle FIVE MINUTES EARLY. Therefore this thread is now outdated and can be locked. Right?


LOL-And today's #7 is running over 3 hours late!!!!


----------



## MrFSS

All the non-topic stuff is now over in the Random Discussion Forum


----------



## montana mike

In looking at what is happening to the eastbound EB's over the past several days they appear to be losing almost as much time from MSP to CHI (2+ hours) as the dreaded MT-ND corridor. Has anyone been on an EB during this time to ascertain if this is traffic congestion or track work?


----------



## gn2276

It is probably a little of both.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> In looking at what is happening to the eastbound EB's over the past several days they appear to be losing almost as much time from MSP to CHI (2+ hours) as the dreaded MT-ND corridor. Has anyone been on an EB during this time to ascertain if this is traffic congestion or track work?


No, but it's also likely to be abusive, illegal dispatching. Remember, E. Hunter Harrison recently took over CP. When at CN, CN was especially prone to delaying Amtrak by illegally running freights ahead of Amtrak; now he's at CP, and suddenly the OTP for Amtrak running on CP crashes to new lows? Suspicious to say the least.


----------



## Phil S

Last time I was on it, a few weeks ago, we had to back out of maybe 4 sidings in a row. I think this was all CP track, at least all of it was S of MSP. It has to be track work, no? Not that I don't believe CP would ever be nasty.


----------



## neroden

Harrison was also known at CN for running trains too long for the sidings without lengthening the sidings.

Let's hope there's track improvements going on. :-(


----------



## andersone

The PHMSA/USDOT has new tank car rules driven by the Bakken ,,,,


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Sorry no law changes, just urges the shipper to use better and new design cars. No enforcement. All the USDOT 111 railcars are not permitted in Canada are now been used to move crud oil here in the US.

How many more derailments before the USDOT 111 cars are banned is the question of the day.

New policy and the emergency order by the FRA is a waste of paper.


----------



## montana mike

At least part of this mess could be solved by the darned pipeline. Lesser of two evils by far........


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Keystone not designed for Bakken crude oil, prime reason was to ship oil sands tar "crude" from Canada for export. Would help some, but not much.

Oil companies like the "one night stand" with the railroads. Pipe lines required long term commitment "we build, you must ship by us".

Nobody knows how long before this boom bust.

As a side note I really don't get why Keystone "North" has yet to be approved. I would not invest myself, however not sure why this pipe line has a political hold on it. Then again still don't understand why Amtrak is attack by the political party that formed it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

montana mike said:


> At least part of this mess could be solved by the darned pipeline. Lesser of two evils by far........


Source?


----------



## Ispolkom

Devil's Advocate said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least part of this mess could be solved by the darned pipeline. Lesser of two evils by far........
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
Click to expand...

Here's a table from the North Dakota Pipeline Authority. It shows how much quicker railroad capacity can be ramped up, compared to pipelines.

Note that the Keystone XL pipeline would only handle 100k barrels per day. Enbridge's projects, which don't require State Department approval and seem to not attract much notice, will move much more Bakken oil. For me one very interesting aspect of this table is the size of railroad projects not yet online. I know that some of them are on the former Northern Pacific line or the Soo Line (now CP), but there are lots of planned transhipping projects still being built on the Hi Line.


----------



## montana mike

Devil's Advocate said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least part of this mess could be solved by the darned pipeline. Lesser of two evils by far........
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
Click to expand...

???? When you look at etas on rail tanker car accidents vs pipeline spills there is no question that pipelines pose a far less hazard. Look at the Alaskan pipeline as an example.


----------



## montana mike

Ispolkom said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least part of this mess could be solved by the darned pipeline. Lesser of two evils by far........
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's a table from the North Dakota Pipeline Authority. It shows how much quicker railroad capacity can be ramped up, compared to pipelines.
> 
> Note that the Keystone XL pipeline would only handle 100k barrels per day. Enbridge's projects, which don't require State Department approval and seem to not attract much notice, will move much more Bakken oil. For me one very interesting aspect of this table is the size of railroad projects not yet online. I know that some of them are on the former Northern Pacific line or the Soo Line (now CP), but there are lots of planned transhipping projects still being built on the Hi Line.
Click to expand...

Good Point


----------



## montana mike

Anyone have any idea what is going on between SPT and LIB in Montana today? Both east and westbound Empire Builders lost multiple hours in this area overnight. Disappointing to see such big delays in an area that normally runs smoothly. My local BNSF guy hasn't contacted me yet on this, so not sure if this is freight related or something else.

:-((

Update: BNSf guy says they had a derailment in Bonners Ferry, ID last night-arrrrrrrgh!


----------



## Palmetto

montana mike said:


> Anyone have any idea what is going on between SPT and LIB in Montana today? Both east and westbound Empire Builders lost multiple hours in this area overnight. Disappointing to see such big delays in an area that normally runs smoothly. My local BNSF guy hasn't contacted me yet on this, so not sure if this is freight related or something else.
> 
> :-((
> 
> Update: BNSf guy says they had a derailment in Bonners Ferry, ID last night-arrrrrrrgh!


I know only some of the 3-letter station codes, and SPT is not one of them. Please tell those of us who don't know all codes just where SPT is. Oh. Oh. I think it's Sandpoint, given the context of the post. Am I correct?


----------



## Palmetto

montana mike said:


> Anyone have any idea what is going on between SPT and LIB in Montana today? Both east and westbound Empire Builders lost multiple hours in this area overnight. Disappointing to see such big delays in an area that normally runs smoothly. My local BNSF guy hasn't contacted me yet on this, so not sure if this is freight related or something else.
> 
> :-((
> 
> Update: BNSf guy says they had a derailment in Bonners Ferry, ID last night-arrrrrrrgh!


According to another forum, a grain train "fell off the rails" in Bonners Ferry, ID. Then an eastbound ran into the derailment. That would put a big dent in operations. :lol:


----------



## montana mike

Palmetto said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have any idea what is going on between SPT and LIB in Montana today? Both east and westbound Empire Builders lost multiple hours in this area overnight. Disappointing to see such big delays in an area that normally runs smoothly. My local BNSF guy hasn't contacted me yet on this, so not sure if this is freight related or something else.
> 
> :-((
> 
> Update: BNSf guy says they had a derailment in Bonners Ferry, ID last night-arrrrrrrgh!
> 
> 
> 
> I know only some of the 3-letter station codes, and SPT is not one of them. Please tell those of us who don't know all codes just where SPT is. Oh. Oh. I think it's Sandpoint, given the context of the post. Am I correct?
Click to expand...

Yup


----------



## Green Maned Lion

SPT = Sandpoint


----------



## montana mike

In the final hours of my journey on the Empire Builder (8/17). About three hours behind the "new" schedule, perhaps a bit more late over the next several hours of travel. Some observations:

1. The Minot delays are frustrating. We arrived 45 minutes early, only to sit in Minot for almost two hours because there was no fresh crew available for us to depart on time. According to our attendant this happens often---arrrrgh.

2. BNSF freight caused about an additional 1 hour delay thru ND, not really that bad considering all of the issues.

3. CP Rail has caused an additional 1 hour delta due to both some minor construction and freight traffic

4. The dining experience: Same food as before (although I was told Amtrak will eliminate many of the "specials" shortly and just stick with some basics), just on plastic plates, paper cups and paper napkins. The dining steward said they no longer have a dishwasher assigned, so everything is now "disposable". I have to wonder here, doing the math, the cost of thousands of these items each trip would appear to outweigh the cost of that person??? Plus the mountains of trash they lug off the train at each service stop is amazing!!

5. I know this is a sore subject, but gosh we miss those nice little amenities. The trip is much more boring without all of those little things, and yes the wine and cheese event. Even the dining car people lamented the loss of this fun time, even though it meant more work for them.

Oh, well........C'est La Vie'


----------



## greatcats

Well put, Mike. I certainly agree with those points. To give the perception if being frugal......what a crock.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Surprised nobody ever try to do the math on the pastic dishes. Going to ask prices next time I am at a Resturant supply company. No it will not be perfect but it will be a interesting posting.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> In the final hours of my journey on the Empire Builder (8/17). About three hours behind the "new" schedule, perhaps a bit more late over the next several hours of travel. Some observations:
> 
> 4. The dining experience: Same food as before (although I was told Amtrak will eliminate many of the "specials" shortly and just stick with some basics), just on plastic plates, paper cups and paper napkins. The dining steward said they no longer have a dishwasher assigned, so everything is now "disposable". I have to wonder here, doing the math, the cost of thousands of these items each trip would appear to outweigh the cost of that person??? Plus the mountains of trash they lug off the train at each service stop is amazing!!
> 
> 5. I know this is a sore subject, but gosh we miss those nice little amenities. The trip is much more boring without all of those little things, and yes the wine and cheese event. Even the dining car people lamented the loss of this fun time, even though it meant more work for them.
> 
> Oh, well........C'est La Vie'


i sure agree with you,mike. we will travel amtrak long distance only as an agr reward anymore as the value for the money spent is no longer there if we purchase tickets. wonder what amtrak did with all the "china" from the eb?


----------



## montana mike

Quick Update: Have lost another hour both north and south of MKE-more freight delays. Ironic that the delays caused by CPR have been greater than the BNSF issues today!


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> 4. The dining experience: Same food as before (although I was told Amtrak will eliminate many of the "specials" shortly and just stick with some basics),


Disgusting and stupid. Amtrak already eliminated my dessert spending by eliminating all the good desserts; maybe if there are enough cutbacks, Amtrak will cause me to start taking a cooler of my own food. I'm sure that will help Amtrak, not.



> just on plastic plates, paper cups and paper napkins. The dining steward said they no longer have a dishwasher assigned, so everything is now "disposable". I have to wonder here, doing the math, the cost of thousands of these items each trip would appear to outweigh the cost of that person??? Plus the mountains of trash they lug off the train at each service stop is amazing!!


Way to be wasteful and un-environmental, Amtrak.
Even if the dishwasher costs a few bucks more, the payback in reputation and customer reaction from having actual plates and washing them would be very large.

We need to keep complaining to Amtrak about this every chance we get. This is just *stupid*.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The dishwasher adds a million bucks a year to the overall trains bottom line. Keep that in your calculations.

That being said, that's odd, because the new schedule specifically says meals served on China.


----------



## greatcats

I think it has been said that those plastic plates get thrown away. How much cost is that vs. having real plates and a dishwasher?? This whole downgrading which I wrote them a long letter about recently, really has me disgusted. Superficial, but tacky, changes, to give the perception and illusion of saving money. Timetable says china - another Amtrak inconsistency. Maybe I should get my travel partner friend, who is obsessive about recycling, on their case about their waste of materials.


----------



## yarrow

Green Maned Lion said:


> The dishwasher adds a million bucks a year to the overall trains bottom line. Keep that in your calculations.
> 
> That being said, that's odd, because the new schedule specifically says meals served on China.


the plastic plates may well be made in china


----------



## neroden

Green Maned Lion said:


> The dishwasher adds a million bucks a year to the overall trains bottom line.


Honestly? I simply don't believe this. This is phony-baloney. I'd need to see a breakdown, but it sounds like the famous Amtrak accounting. If each dishwasher (2 trainsets, recall) is paid $500,000/year including benefits, Amtrak has larger problems.
Edit....oh, right, we're talking Empire Builder here, I was still thinking Auto Train. OK, I can believe $1 million a year for the Empire Builder with its six trainsets, but again, the real problem is somewhere else. Like the on-time performance preventing those six trainsets from filling up at high prices.



> Keep that in your calculations.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

It's not baloney. 6 sets of equipment. Six employees per day. With full benefits, housing cost at layover, etc etc, if it was less than a million bucks is be astonished. You need at least two teams, probably three, plus back up. 20 people. Think the cost per employee is less than $50k a year with all the basic benefits?


----------



## neroden

greatcats said:


> Maybe I should get my travel partner friend, who is obsessive about recycling, on their case about their waste of materials.


Please do. I'm pretty disgusted by the tonnes of plastic being thrown away, myself. It stomps on any attempts to advertise Amtrak as "green".

-- GML, see my edit, I was still thinking of a different train.

If you think it through, though, the problem is evidently the fact that the Empire Builder is requiring six trainsets, when it should only take five.

In short, it's horrendously expensive and inefficient to run slow, unreliable trains.

Cutting service quality is pointless.


----------



## montana mike

When we got off the train in CHI last night (4 hours late as usual) there were at least ten large bags of plastic disposables form just the lunch meal, all being tossed in the garbage that the kitchen staff had offloaded. It would indeed by an interesting exercise to see how much this costs Amtrak, not just the cost of all of the plastic, but the cost to landfill this mess, etc...not sure how they can call themselves "green" when they run a virtual disposable operation of stuff that gets dumped into the local landfills.

There was not a piece of china to be seen anywhere on the Empire Builder, so I would imagine it is a case of the marketing people not catching up with reality rather than a deliberate effort to deceive. It was strange indeed having "water" as our only amenity in the sleepers-well, I take that back the attendant asked us if we needed ice twice during the trip.......and I did see a few of the residual "amenity kits" lying around on the first day-all gone by day #2.

I do wonder about the delays on CPR. This is my second trip where CPR added a couple hours to the lateness of the EB. The conductor in this segment even mentioned that these delays were increasing and were a significant part of our overall delay into CHI. The good news for a bunch of CONO people last night was that they held that train for a few minutes so these folks could make the connection-whew!!


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> When we got off the train in CHI last night (4 hours late as usual) there were at least ten large bags of plastic disposables form just the lunch meal,


If they were disposing that in MY county that would be $2.40/bag if taken directly to the waste transfer station; $3.50/bag if picked up. I have been told that our disposal rates are underpriced and the county loses money on disposal, subsidizing it heavily with local taxes.



> all being tossed in the garbage that the kitchen staff had offloaded. It would indeed by an interesting exercise to see how much this costs Amtrak, not just the cost of all of the plastic, but the cost to landfill this mess, etc...


At $3.50 per bag of trash, 10 bags per meal, 3 meals per day per trainset, 6 trainsets, 365 days, it would be about $230,000 / year for disposal. The plastic

I expect that Amtrak is getting away with less expenses than that by dumping their trash in communities which subsidize trash disposal even more heavily. I don't respect that. At all.

Of course, there'd still be some trash if they used washable China. Maybe as much as 1/10th as much trash.

--- more estimates follow --

I did some quick checking up on plastic plates.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/45833/plastic-plates.html

For the cheaper ones pricing seems to be a little over 25 cents per plate for 6-inch plates, or 34 cents per plate for 10 inch plates. Amtrak gets bulk discounts, but Amtrak's plates are on the sturdier side so they probably cost more than this. The average Amtrak meal ends up using at least three plates or bowls. I'd call it a minimum of 93 cents per person served. These estimates are very rough because there's such price variation.

But anyway, suppose three full Superliner sleepers and no coach passengers eat in the dining car. 126 passengers / meal * 93 cents / passenger * 3 meals / day * 6 trainsets * 365 days is about $770,000.

There's no way this is actually significantly cheaper than hiring a dishwasher.

If Amtrak has extra-cheap plates and gets away with dumping the disposal costs on localities, it might be marginally cheaper on the cost side. I could believe a total cost for plastic as low as $500,000 if I were told it. On the other side, I could believe maybe $100,000 in broken china per year, plus $1,000,000 for the dishwasher. I'm really trying to err in Amtrak's favor here. This would make a cost savings of $600,000 on the Empire Builder.

The revenue losses are going to be at least of the same order of magnitude, and probably larger. A 0.8% revenue loss (yes, that's less than one percent) would eat up the entirety of these savings.



> It's probably not sure how they can call themselves "green" when they run a virtual disposable operation of stuff that gets dumped into the local landfills.


They're not going to be able to call themselves "green". Amtrak: the wasteful, oil-dependent, trash-generating way to travel. It's hard to estimate how much this hurts Amtrak's bottom line in the long run, because the effect of marketing (and negative marketing) is always hard to estimate. Personally I think it's hurting Amtrak significantly, but it's hard to estimate.
The marketing side of Amtrak should be screaming to get the washable china restored.



> I do wonder about the delays on CPR.


I'm morally certain that what's happened is that E Hunter Harrison is ordering the dispatchers to delay Amtrak. It's too consistent.


----------



## montana mike

We can't forget about the plastic juice and drink cups, plus the paper coffee cups, vs the glasses and mugs, plus the paper napkins vs cloth napkins .

PS-#7 in MT tonight is over 6 1/2 hours late and #8 in WI is over 4 1/2 hours late--not a good day for the "new schedule" at all.

:-((


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> .
> 
> PS-#7 in MT tonight is over 6 1/2 hours late and #8 in WI is over 4 1/2 hours late--not a good day for the "new schedule" at all.
> 
> :-((


what happens in less than 3 weeks when the eb goes back to the old schedule?


----------



## CHamilton

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> PS-#7 in MT tonight is over 6 1/2 hours late and #8 in WI is over 4 1/2 hours late--not a good day for the "new schedule" at all.
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> what happens in less than 3 weeks when the eb goes back to the old schedule?
Click to expand...

No one is expecting a return to the old schedule anytime soon. Odds are that it will either stay where it is, or be lengthened even further.


----------



## yarrow

CHamilton said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> PS-#7 in MT tonight is over 6 1/2 hours late and #8 in WI is over 4 1/2 hours late--not a good day for the "new schedule" at all.
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> what happens in less than 3 weeks when the eb goes back to the old schedule?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No one is expecting a return to the old schedule anytime soon. Odds are that it will either stay where it is, or be lengthened even further.
Click to expand...

 

i don't see how the old schedule can be reinstated but a reservation from 6/9 on gives the old times and the old schedule is the one published in the summer/fall timetable. what sort of cretins are running amtrak?


----------



## CHamilton

yarrow said:


> i don't see how the old schedule can be reinstated but a reservation from 6/9 on gives the old times and the old schedule is the one published in the summer/fall timetable. what sort of cretins are running amtrak?


I have my own opinions about that...but they did not program the temporary schedule into their system beyond 5/31. When they do make a decision, you can bet that you will get a flurry of email and voice messages informing you of the "change."


----------



## montana mike

We would instantly go from 4+ hours late to 7+ hours late again--arrrrrgh!

I just saw #8 in MT lost over 7 hours around WFH. Anyone know what happened?

:-(


----------



## Phil S

I gather no one knows what happened? Nothing at TO. No news that I could find.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

BNSF is try to get the farm's fertilizer out, major traffic detour off the high line.

Trains are holding on power, lack of crews.

All over the system it seems.

Things falling apart fast.

Big Ag going to have a fit.


----------



## montana mike

Now I am confused. I went on line to look at possible reservations for #8 in mid June and they show departure times with the built in 3 hour padding (as it is now), however, when you go onto Amtrak's schedule (effective 6/9) it shows the old scheduled time without the padding. Shall I assume the time on the reservation is the accurate one and the "new" (effective 6/9) schedule is just fantasy?

BTW-#8 now shows a service disruption for this train, still just west of Glacier national park (now around 8 hours behind schedule)-at least the pax will see the Park in the daylight (one has to look on the bright side of a very gloomy situation). It lost all of this time between Libby, MT and Whitefish. Clearly something really bad happened to the EB or on the BNSF tracks to cause such a lengthy delay, bummer....This sucker is going to be one of those trains arriving as dawn breaks the day after the scheduled arrival date in CHI. I hope they have sufficient food for everyone!!!!


----------



## PRR 60

montana mike said:


> Now I am confused. I went on line to look at possible reservations for #8 in mid June and they show departure times with the built in 3 hour padding (as it is now), however, when you go onto Amtrak's schedule (effective 6/9) it shows the old scheduled time without the padding. Shall I assume the time on the reservation is the accurate one and the "new" (effective 6/9) schedule is just fantasy?
> 
> BTW-#8 now shows a service disruption for this train, still just west of Glacier national park (now around 8 hours behind schedule)-at least the pax will see the Park in the daylight (one has to look on the bright side of a very gloomy situation). It lost all of this time between Libby, MT and Whitefish. Clearly something really bad happened to the EB or on the BNSF tracks to cause such a lengthy delay, bummer....This sucker is going to be one of those trains arriving as dawn breaks the day after the scheduled arrival date in CHI. I hope they have sufficient food for everyone!!!!


The on-line booking system pulls its info from the Amtrak CRS - Arrrow, so those are the accurate times. The June 9 System Timetable page for the Builder has a warning that the schedule is subject to change.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Well it official. I don't want to hear of BNSF or Amtrak running out of crews.

Both Amtrak and BNSF have passed on hire me.

Amtrak has rejected my application.

BNSF gave me a invitation to a job interview, but only 7 days notice. (I need 9-10 days).

Glad to hear the shortage of hard working crews is over.


----------



## yarrow

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Well it official. I don't want to hear of BNSF or Amtrak running out of crews.
> 
> Both Amtrak and BNSF have passed on hire me.
> 
> Amtrak has rejected my application.
> 
> BNSF gave me a invitation to a job interview, but only 7 days notice. (I need 9-10 days).
> 
> Glad to hear the shortage of hard working crews is over.


amtrak may have rejected you feeling you don't have the requisite capacity to put up with frequent and large loads of management bs


----------



## montana mike

WellTrained said:


> I gather no one knows what happened? Nothing at TO. No news that I could find.


One of my BNSF folks just told me: Another "incident" in the area where they had the earlier derailment (he did not elaborate and I could tell he was not a happy camper today). Must have been fairly significant, since it cost #8 over 7 hours yesterday. That train is now well over 9 hours late and just heading into the worst traffic area now. I think this one is still on track for an early sunrise arrival in CHI tomorrow-bummer....


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> WellTrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> I gather no one knows what happened? Nothing at TO. No news that I could find.
> 
> 
> 
> One of my BNSF folks just told me: Another "incident" in the area where they had the earlier derailment (he did not elaborate and I could tell he was not a happy camper today). Must have been fairly significant, since it cost #8 over 7 hours yesterday. That train is now well over 9 hours late and just heading into the worst traffic area now. I think this one is still on track for an early sunrise arrival in CHI tomorrow-bummer....
Click to expand...

I read that that had engine issues and no go. So I'm guessing they had to wait for another engine.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## EB_OBS

BNSF derailment at Katka, MP 1363.3, 40 miles west of Libby, MT. Sometime before 3:30am MT this morning. #7(20) is holding at Libby, MT.


----------



## Cina

yarrow said:


> amtrak may have rejected you feeling you don't have the requisite capacity to put up with frequent and large loads of management bs


:lol:


----------



## Cina

You know what would cut down on waste? If all of the tableware were edible. Every meal served in either a bread bowl or waffle cone.


----------



## montana mike

EB_OBS said:


> BNSF derailment at Katka, MP 1363.3, 40 miles west of Libby, MT. Sometime before 3:30am MT this morning. #7(20) is holding at Libby, MT.


The Empire Builders just can't catch a break can they!!! BNSF has not had a good week either.....

:-(


----------



## pianocat

Just to confirm suspicions that EB will continue with the extra time padding for the summer.... My EB reservation for Aug. 6 has officially now been switched to reflect a 3 hour earlier departure out of Spokane [now Aug. 5] . Interesting how they 'notified' me.... new e-Tickets appeared in my inbox, without explanation. Good thing I knew this was probably going to happen, anyway - since the only change to my itinerary was the dep. on EB. An opening note/explanation would have been nice...what about the folks who have no clue about this train's abysmal on-time record?


----------



## CHamilton

Someone else with a similar itinerary on 7/16 posted on Facebook that they just got the same revisions.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Welcome to Amworld where Communication is Job 10!!! Their motto towards Customer communication seems to be send out robo mail, job done!

You're trip is still wonderful, were envious!


----------



## rusty spike

Yep, they just sent me an email with revised eticket for my July trip to WFH showing that the EB #28 will depart PDX 3 hours earlier than my original reservation made on Mar. 27. So the "temporary" schedule adjustment has "officially" been made permanent at least through July.

Of course unless it's changed again. 

No explanation or notice in the email that the ressie was revised. But I was expecting it anyway.

But what had been planned as a return trip on #7 the following week has been cancelled due to these absurd 1-3 AM departures from Whitefish when you expecting to leave at 10:46 PM. I would rather stay in my comfy hotel room, get up early the next morning and drive the rental car back to Seattle and will probably be there ahead of the EBl! YMMV.

edited for typo


----------



## neroden

Cina said:


> You know what would cut down on waste? If all of the tableware were edible. Every meal served in either a bread bowl or waffle cone.


Perhaps pure Ethiopian style dining. (Even the tablecloth is made of bread.) ;-)


----------



## JayPea

I got the same email(s) and revised eticket(s) for my June trip: Spokane-Seattle on the 23rd, Seattle-Glacier Park on the 25th, and Glacier Park-Spokane on the 28th. And for a return trip from Glacier Park to Spokane on August 11th. Funny part was that I got no such revision for my trip TO Glacier Park: Champaign-Chicago on the 4th of August, Chicago to Los Angeles on the 4th, Los Angeles to Portland on the 6th, and Portland to Glacier Park on the 7th. Since the connection between the CS and the EB on the 7th is broken, that changed the whole thing. Guess they forgot to mention that little detail in passing.  However, on the August trip to Glacier, I am traveling with my uncle and his two granddaughters. And while I am returning to Spokane from Glacier, he and his granddaughters are returning to Champaign. So he noticed the change to that reservation. Not the Chicago-Glacier Park reservation. So after he called me and hashing over our options, we decided to change our reservations for a day earlier and hope they still had bedrooms available on all three trains. He then called AGR, and was able to secure two bedrooms for all our reservations except from Portland to Glacier Park, where there was only one bedroom left. He settled for a roomette instead. So with that settled, the discussion turned to where to stay. I gave him yarrow's recent suggestion of the Econolodge, and my uncle was able to secure two rooms there. Yarrow, from Colfax to Nine Mile Falls, I thank you very much! 

So now we are all set. We still arrive in Glacier on the 8th. Our plan is to rent a car, drive to Yellowstone, and spend a few days there. I had been wondering about how this was all going to play out, knowing the schedule change was going to extend well beyond the end of this month. Only problem is come from a long, proud line of nervous Nellies, fussbudgets, stewers, and worriers on my mother's side of the family, and I now have one less thing to fuss, stew, and worry about. Drat! :lol:


----------



## montana mike

#8, still in MN is now approaching 11 hours behind schedule. Let's see if they get to CHI before the first rays of sunshine hit Lake Michigan!!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

rusty spike said:


> But what had been planned as a return trip on #7 the following week has been cancelled due to these absurd 1-3 AM departures from Whitefish when you expecting to leave at 10:46 PM. I would rather stay in my comfy hotel room, get up early the next morning and drive the rental car back to Seattle and will probably be there ahead of the EBl! YMMV.


Whitefish is such a popular destination, it's a shame to see what the schedule has done to it. It does make one wonder how many passengers Amtrak has lost on westbound trips from Montana. Other than people who have a whole lot of time on their hands, I really wonder how anyone can count on the EB as actual transportation at this point.

Amtrak's website still has the "new" schedule listed as ending on June 9. However, when booking a trip on the site, the new schedule is now in effect through September 8th.


----------



## George Harris

Not specific to the EB route, but of interest:

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/21/180000-new-cars-sitting-waiting-for-trains/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588

Picture is of a UP train, so apparently the problems go far beyond the North Coast Route


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

In the midst of the biggest domestic oil boom of the century 7 hrs is a miracle. If CSX were running the show it would be worse. We just need to accept that the most scenic route from east to west is overloaded with America's favorite fuel right now and that supplying oil is the most important thing to our country right now.


----------



## CHamilton

montana mike said:


> #8, still in MN is now approaching 11 hours behind schedule. Let's see if they get to CHI before the first rays of sunshine hit Lake Michigan!!


It did, at 2:49 am, 10h 54m late. A passenger reported on Facebook that they lost more time at the WI-IL border due to engine failure.


----------



## Mitch

Received a call from Amtrak yesterday. On our upcoming trip to SEA in June, the departure time leaving SEA has been moved three hours earlier to 1:45 PM. Hopefully this will provide some hope for making some connections East at CUS. Now they have about 6 hours padded into the schedule so we should be asking when is enough, enough?


----------



## CHamilton

Mitch said:


> Now they have about 6 hours padded into the schedule so we should be asking when is enough, enough?


That extended schedule has been in place for over a month now. I haven't run the numbers, but it seems as though it's not enough. The EB has been running anywhere from 2-8 or more hours late from the extended schedule, and there seems to be no end in sight.


----------



## andersone

JayPea said:


> So now we are all set. We still arrive in Glacier on the 8th.


i shall be a day ahead of you,,, originally schedule to arrive on the 8th, moved it up a day


----------



## CHamilton

8(21) is almost 8 hours late, and has not yet arrived in St. Cloud. jebr, here's your chance for a daylight points run


----------



## jebr

CHamilton said:


> 8(21) is almost 8 hours late, and has not yet arrived in St. Cloud. jebr, here's your chance for a daylight points run


Too bad I'm stuck inside at work, otherwise I would be!


----------



## amamba

Mitch said:


> Received a call from Amtrak yesterday. On our upcoming trip to SEA in June, the departure time leaving SEA has been moved three hours earlier to 1:45 PM. Hopefully this will provide some hope for making some connections East at CUS. Now they have about 6 hours padded into the schedule so we should be asking when is enough, enough?


Doubtful. Even with the new schedule the train is still running late and missing connections to the CL, CONO, LSL, etc.


----------



## CHamilton

Train derailment brings laughs



> A train derailment in Crossport, Idaho, left 235 Amtrak passengers stranded in Libby on Thursday morning.
> 
> 
> “There’s worse places to be stuck,” Nico Lopez, 18, said while sitting on a park bench near the delayed train. “It’s pretty here. I just spent four months working in the Bakken. It’s nothing but rolling hills out there.”
> 
> Delayed passengers were surprisingly jovial, impressed by the small-town hospitality to which they awoke. Pam Zimmerman, director of Achievements Inc., which operates Park Side Thrift Store, noticed the train as she opened shop.
> 
> “It looked pretty darn inconvenient,” Zimmerman said. “We made coffee for them and got doughnuts and cookies from Rosauers. If my family was stranded, that’s how I would want them treated.”
> 
> Fishes & Loaves Café owner, Star Phillips, provided hot dogs, hamburgers and refreshments.
> 
> Amtrak conductor Jason Berg said Libby was the most helpful town of the 10 he has been stuck in during his five years on the job.
> 
> “The police and the Emergency Management Agency showed up and gave us a lift to get more ice and milk for the passengers,” Berg said. “Libby really has our back in this.”


----------



## JayPea

I work for the Rosauers grocery chain. I can guarantee the donuts and cookies were the best they've ever had! 

Nice to see Small Town America stepping up to make a bad situation as good as possible for the passengers. I bet I know what the news from Libby will be in our next company newsletter.


----------



## amamba

CHamilton said:


> Train derailment brings laughs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train derailment in Crossport, Idaho, left 235 Amtrak passengers stranded in Libby on Thursday morning.
> 
> 
> “There’s worse places to be stuck,” Nico Lopez, 18, said while sitting on a park bench near the delayed train. “It’s pretty here. I just spent four months working in the Bakken. It’s nothing but rolling hills out there.”
> 
> Delayed passengers were surprisingly jovial, impressed by the small-town hospitality to which they awoke. Pam Zimmerman, director of Achievements Inc., which operates Park Side Thrift Store, noticed the train as she opened shop.
> 
> “It looked pretty darn inconvenient,” Zimmerman said. “We made coffee for them and got doughnuts and cookies from Rosauers. If my family was stranded, that’s how I would want them treated.”
> 
> Fishes & Loaves Café owner, Star Phillips, provided hot dogs, hamburgers and refreshments.
> 
> Amtrak conductor Jason Berg said Libby was the most helpful town of the 10 he has been stuck in during his five years on the job.
> 
> “The police and the Emergency Management Agency showed up and gave us a lift to get more ice and milk for the passengers,” Berg said. “Libby really has our back in this.”
Click to expand...

That sounds much nicer than when we were stuck in Glasgow, MT for 20 hours.


----------



## andersone

i have a story about catching the EB in Libby in the middle of the night in the 70's. Unfortunately it is not PG. But I do remember Libby fondly.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nice small town story! And lots better than when we sat on #6 without HEP for 8 Hours outside McCook,Neb after hitting a hurd of cattle @ 79 Mph!

We arrived into CHI @ 1AM after an evening meal of Amstew and Bottled Water!


----------



## CHamilton

From the Empire Builder group on Facebook:



> Sometimes the Builder just can't get a break. Already 4+ hours [late] into St Paul [8(22)], when ready to depart, a reverse moving BNSF/CP coal train derailed east of electric switch. Builder backed from SPUD to St Anthony Tower, and ran the Midway sub in its way to Chicago.


----------



## andersone

My dogma ate my mantra

just checked the new schedule effective June 9 - pushed back EB8 depature from GPK to 9:45 AM - could have stayed in Apgar another night,,, alas,,, mr. anticipatory pulled the trigger too quick,,,,


----------



## AmtrakBlue

andersone said:


> My dogma ate my mantra
> 
> just checked the new schedule effective June 9 - pushed back EB8 depature from GPK to 9:45 AM - could have stayed in Apgar another night,,, alas,,, mr. anticipatory pulled the trigger too quick,,,,


The time did not change back. Try a test booking. The timetable has not been updated with the new schedule.


----------



## montana mike

That is correct the "new" schedule that is currently in place is going to be there for quite a long time. Even some discussion for further "tweaks" if the construction projects make things even worse. It hope not.


----------



## MrFSS

montana mike said:


> That is correct the "new" schedule that is currently in place is going to be there for quite a long time. Even some discussion for further "tweaks" if the construction projects make things even worse. It hope not.


Pretty soon the SEA-CHI trip may become a three night affair!


----------



## yarrow

was reading on another site that the new dot-111 tank cars that will haul bakken crude have 14% less capacity than the current tank car. due, i guess, to thicker steel in the new cars. thus 14% more rail traffic to haul what is being shipped today. poor old hi-line


----------



## jis

If the original train was carrying 100 units of crude, with the new cars the original train would be able to carry only 86 units of crude. For capacity to get back to 100 units it will take 100/86 of the old train with is about 1.162 times, i.e. a bit over 16% more.


----------



## Stellar1

I am on a west bound EB (#27) that left Chicago on Sunday, May 25th, due in to Portland on Tuesday. May 27th. Left Chicago on time, half hour late into MSP, but departed on time. Departed Minot 35 minutes late, departed Williston almost 2 hours late, Havre departure also running 2 hours late. Made up some time, quick stop at East Glacier Pqrk, only running 22 minutes behind. The train split in Portland, Seattle portion left, we departed only 15 minutes late. Only had a few brief stops along the route so far, no long delays. Hoping we make it to Portland with no complications


----------



## CHamilton

Stellar1, thanks for the good news. Weekends still seem to be less crowded.

Meanwhile, this does not seem to have affected the EB.



> Tornado Hits North Dakota Oil Workers Camp
> by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 
> May 27, 2014 4:40 AM ET
> 
> A tornado struck a workers camp in North Dakota's oil patch on Monday, injuring nine people — one critically — and destroying at least eight trailers where workers had been living, an emergency management official said.
> 
> The twister touched down at around 7:50 p.m. at a camp about 5 miles south of Watford City, which is in the west of the state and about 30 miles southeast of Williston, the city at the heart of the state's oil boom.
> 
> McKenzie County Emergency Management Director Jerry Samuelson said crews sifted through a large amount of debris at the camp, but that he was confident that nobody was missing. He said there were a lot more trailers at the camp just a few days ago, so the situation could have been a lot worse had it happened earlier.


----------



## mwmnp

For those wondering about the service disruption on 8-25, derailments on both the Devils Lake _and_ Surrey Cutoff lines on Memorial Day closed down both of BNSF's lines east of Minot. 8-25 arrived in Minot at about 1:30 AM, but has been waiting there ever since for at least one of the lines to reopen. Likewise, 7-26 has also been delayed west of Fargo waiting for a route to become available.


----------



## andersone

am i nuts? this is from the Amtrak site effective June 9

which shows GPK to 9:45 AM


----------



## JayPea

I have a trip from Spokane to Seattle to Glacier Park and back to Spokane scheduled beginning June 23rd. Last week I got emails with attached revised etickets, reflecting the current schedule staying in place. So the above timetable is incorrect. Unless the email is....... :wacko:


----------



## andersone

I should have listened to Al Gore: don't trust anything on the internet,,,,,,


----------



## CHamilton

mwmnp said:


> For those wondering about the service disruption on 8-25, derailments on both the Devils Lake _and_ Surrey Cutoff lines on Memorial Day closed down both of BNSF's lines east of Minot. 8-25 arrived in Minot at about 1:30 AM, but has been waiting there ever since for at least one of the lines to reopen. Likewise, 7-26 has also been delayed west of Fargo waiting for a route to become available.


Via Facebook:



> Train [8] sat at Minot from 1:24 am until 11:52 am then detoured on the KO Sub. They were almost 18 hrs late out of Staples.


----------



## montana mike

And I just spoke with the #7 Builder Conductor, here in CHI (I am at Union Station waiting to depart on #7) and he said because the #8 arrived over 16 hours late the #7 will be delayed--he don't know how late (the yard refuses to give him a time), but it could be significant--arrrrgh. This route is totally snake bitten. I wonder how late our train will be by the time we supposedly arrive in WFH tomorrow. My guess is we arrive early AM on the 30th. This train has become quite an adventure in 2014.

What frustrates me is we rushed to be sure to arrive in CHI in time, but evidently the Amtrak folks knew early this AM that #7/27 would not leave on time and waited until just 15 minutes before boarding to announce the delays to the pax. The Conductor appeared to be quite frustrated at the mess......

:-(

PS-WE left CHI about 1 hour and 20 minutes late! C'est La Vie'


----------



## yarrow

we just got into pdx on 27(26) about 3:45 late. this was my first trip(spk-pdx) since the amenities cuts fully hit. traveled in coach for the day trip. no schedules available on board, no "empire builder" magazine, no newspapers scattered about the ssl by sleeper folks, coaches seemed a little dusty and ratty. little stuff, only cared about by little kids and me. beautiful trip down the columbia which is a main reason i ride but somewhat less amenities than i had grown used to


----------



## neroden

yarrow said:


> no schedules available on board,


Maybe this change is just for the Empire Builder, to remind you that it's not really running to a schedule.


----------



## aurbo

It looks like there will be no eastbound or westbound empire builders through Rug, DVL, and GFK through next Thursday( 5 Jun). Is the Devils Lake track that bad due to the derailment they cannot run traffic through? You cannot book any trips from any of those cities.


----------



## EB_OBS

There will be no service between MOT & MSP actually.

#8(31) will turn at MOT and #7(1) will turn at MSP.

This is expected to last four days and is at the request of the BNSF.


----------



## EB_OBS

aurbo said:


> Is the Devils Lake track that bad due to the derailment they cannot run traffic through? You cannot book any trips from any of those cities.


They are having problems with mud boils, don't even know what those are, sink holes, sun kinks and other track deviations that have caused derailments earlier this week.


----------



## aurbo

Wonder why you cannot book anything from GFK/DVL/RUG to MSP, but can book from FAR to MSP and MOT to MSP those days?


----------



## aurbo

and currently the (28)7 is now west of elk river going 77mph according to the Amtrak tracking site.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> There will be no service between MOT & MSP actually.
> 
> #8(31) will turn at MOT and #7(1) will turn at MSP.
> 
> This is expected to last four days and is at the request of the BNSF.


wow. will amtrak run a bus between mot and msp?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

My understanding:

Mud Boils:

Track goes up and down as train past the area (more like dipping). The ground is pounded by the motion. Mud comes shooting up. It start with just a bit, but when the tail of the train makes it past pure liquid mud is shoot up. Very noticeable. Very impressive up close. Lack of drainage is normal the cause. You find them on the sides of grade level crossings first, but can happen anywhere. Sign of poor maintance, lack of fresh ballast.

Base on some lightweight time hang out with the 1205th rail transportation company. Feel free to correct.


----------



## XHRTSP

I was going to make my second attempt to take the EB on the 1st, just found out it got cancelled. FML. Not sure yet if I should ask Amtrak to reschedule me for the 23rd, try and see if they'd get me the Zephyr for the same cost on the 1st, or just request a refund. I've been waiting years to take this train.


----------



## montana mike

On 7(28) now going nowhere on the Surrey Cutoff. Our entire trip so far on this stretch has been at about 20-25 mph. Painfully slow, now we are stopped. No word from the crew as to why, but it looks like another late run for #7 as it crosses the Hi-Line--frustrating as heck.

:-(


----------



## Ispolkom

I was on yesterday's #7, which arrived in Minot 6.5hours late. I try to be patient, but the locations of the delays annoyed me. We sat for an hour 2 miles from St. Paul Union Depot, waiting for CP to clear the switch. Worse, I went to the first call for lunch near Surrey, thinking I could always dash when we got to the Minot Depot. No such luck. Almost 3 hours later we were still stopped by the new viaduct East of town. I have never been so tempted to open the door and dash. If only I had had less luggage...

I did see a warhead convoy heading to the base, but I would rather have spent the time with my ailing mother.

We'll see what #8 is like on Saturday.


----------



## ChrisRice

So what is happening to the EB between MSP and MOT? We are scheduled for SEA-CHI leaving CHI tomorrow. What should we expect, besides the unexpected?


----------



## montana mike

I am on 7(28) and we have been sitting in ND, east of MOT going nowhere for several hours now. The conductor has stated its freight congestion and track construction and we also have two addition freights ahead of us that are just sitting there as well. The entire transit across the Surrey Cutoff has been at slow and slower speeds--perhaps less than 25 mph on almost the entire route, and now stopped completely for hours. Arrrrgh. We are likely to arrive over 6 hours late in MOT, perhaps more as the crew is getting perilously close to running out of time if we don't reach MOT soon. The crew gave us little encouragement about the rest of the trip, saying massive freight traffic and even more construction awaits us from MOT all the way into eastern MT!!!

This is such a total screw up it's pathetic.

Finally moving (albeit slowly), after sitting in the same spot for just under three hours. I hope the crew doesn't run out of time! We have lost a total of 6 hours trekking across ND so far (about 7 1/2 hours late overall now after leaving CHI 90 minutes late yesterday) and we are still at least an hour out of MOT--moving very slowly once again ....


----------



## montana mike

Finally arrived in MOT--about 7 1/2 hours late. :-(

Observations about the delay today so far:

1. We pulled off onto just about every siding to let one, two or three freights pass each time

2. Most of the rest of the trip was way below the normal track speed for the Surrey Cutoff

3. The "construction" delay of almost 3 hours ended up being three guys tinkering with a siding switch, trying to get it fixed

4. If things remain status quo our #7 appears to arrive in WFH at almost the same time as the #8 train tomorrow morning--around 4:46 AM--Arrrrrgh! The way things are going it would be our luck that they hold us out while they service #8!!!!!


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> Finally arrived in MOT--about 7 1/2 hours late. :-(
> 
> Observations about the delay today so far:
> 
> 1. We pulled off onto just about every siding to let one, two or three freights pass each time


Were the freights at least going in the other direction? If they were passing you in the same direction, I think that's grounds for a complaint.


----------



## montana mike

All heading East. Ironically we had made up some of the lost time overnight and had left Fargo about an hour late, only to lose 6 1/2 hours transiting the Surrey Cutoff. Interestingly, of all of the freights that passed us by, only one was oil. The others were intermodal and vehicles and one very long grain train.


----------



## montana mike

Now about 9 hours behind on 7(28) and we were informed that our crew has run out of time, so Amtrak is flying in a new crew into Williston, ND, where we have been sitting for over an hour now. This has certainly been a "wild ride"!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Maybe Financial Excellence can get rid of the T&E Crews, it sure will save a lot of money, maybe even more than the nickel and dime cuts these morons have already implemented!

Hope you get home one of these days Mike!


----------



## CHamilton

A very interesting comment posted on the Facebook Empire Builder group from someone who says they are a BNSF employee. Referring to the standards mandated by PRIIA section 207, which were voided by a court [PDF decision] because they put Amtrak in a regulatory role, the poster says:



> All these service standards were thrown out in court because BNSF knew this mess was going to happen long before the Bakken even started producing oil. Now the tracks are so bad from all the freight traffic they are closing the line due to broken rails and sink holes. It really is bad.


I can't vouch for the accuracy of the statement, but it does seem to make sense, unfortunately.


----------



## Paulus

CHamilton said:


> A very interesting comment posted on the Facebook Empire Builder group from someone who says they are a BNSF employee. Referring to the standards mandated by PRIIA section 207, which were voided by a court [PDF decision] because they put Amtrak in a regulatory role, the poster says:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All these service standards were thrown out in court because BNSF knew this mess was going to happen long before the Bakken even started producing oil. Now the tracks are so bad from all the freight traffic they are closing the line due to broken rails and sink holes. It really is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't vouch for the accuracy of the statement, but it does seem to make sense, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

BNSF controls the court system?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Warren buffet might.


----------



## montana mike

jimhudson said:


> Maybe Financial Excellence can get rid of the T&E Crews, it sure will save a lot of money, maybe even more than the nickel and dime cuts these morons have already implemented!
> 
> Hope you get home one of these days Mike!


We arrived in WFH at about 8:15 AM today--almost 10 hours late--whew!


----------



## montana mike

Anyone know what happened to #8 in SBY today? It was on time (even early) when boom--a service disruption!

Arrrrgh. I am putting my future Amtrak adventures on hold until some sense of sanity is restored to this nonsense on the Hi-Line. Both my Empire Builder segments were very late and the train is no longer has any realistic chance of connecting with any other Amtrak LD train, other than perhaps the LSL at least some of the time. Even the members of the crew on yesterday's #7 that I was on sounded down and exhausted. They did a great job, considering the extreme delays, but these folks had about two hours in CHI as a "turnaround" before heading back west.


----------



## jis

CHamilton said:


> A very interesting comment posted on the Facebook Empire Builder group from someone who says they are a BNSF employee. Referring to the standards mandated by PRIIA section 207, which were voided by a court [PDF decision] because they put Amtrak in a regulatory role, the poster says:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All these service standards were thrown out in court because BNSF knew this mess was going to happen long before the Bakken even started producing oil. Now the tracks are so bad from all the freight traffic they are closing the line due to broken rails and sink holes. It really is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't vouch for the accuracy of the statement, but it does seem to make sense, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

IMHO what the BNSF guy says is utter poppycock, to use a British phrase. The law was poorly written (as even NARP agrees) in the enthusiasm to ensure that Amtrak had full control and veto power, which it should not have been given. Someone over reached and they got slapped down. That's what courts are for. I'd have been really worried if the courts let that one through, no matter how much I want Amtrak trains to run on time. This has been my position consistently, I know, much to the chagrin of many around here.
Incidentally there was a lot of good work done as a result of PRIIA 207, which can be put into effect if someone would get off their duffs and do something about it by adopting an amended 207 as part of MAP 21 or something like that. I draw your attention to this extremely informative document to get a sense of the immense amount of collaborative work that has been done in this subject area consequent upon PRIIA 207: http://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/1511 .

One thing that stands out in the language of the document is how FRA and Amtrak are given equal footing in the standard setting activity, which is what the complaint essentially was about. Once that hindrance is removed it is very likely that a lot of the results of this work can be moved forward to deployment and execution.


----------



## CHamilton

Amending PRIIA 207 was one of the goals we had at last month's NARP Day on Capitol Hill. We asked our elected representatives for a very simple change, which would overcome the objections of the court:



> Give the Federal Railroad Administration sole authority to develop performance metrics and standards specified in PRIIA section 207, deleting the words "...and Amtrak shall jointly..."


The representatives I spoke with were very receptive to making this change. And it's my understanding that the FRA was well along in developing the standards before the court decision, so they could hopefully be implemented quickly.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Hmmm.... so the EB is almost entirely cancelled from June 1 to June 4. I have a CHI-PDX trip scheduled on 27 roughly a week or two after that time frame. On a schedule of 1 to 10 (from 1 being "don't worry" to 10 being "cancel immediately"), how concerned should I be about that trip?

I had planned a round trip on the EB, but rescheduled the eastbound portion via a different route, as that leg is more time sensitive. I couldn't care less if the westbound EB is running really late, but cancelled altogether is bad.

What does Amtrak do if a train is completely cancelled like that? Just refund you your money (or AGR points), and that's it? Even if it's half of a round trip?


----------



## CHamilton

More details on the EB cancellations from the NARP Hotline:



> Empire Builder service will be suspended between Minot, ND, and St. Paul, MN, for four days between May 31 and June 4 with no substitute transportation. Amtrak officials told NARP: “By request of BNSF Railway Company due to current operating conditions on BNSF’s railroad in Eastern North Dakota and Western Minnesota, Amtrak will be canceling service in both directions between MOT and MSP, with no alternate transportation, for four days.
> 
> “This is effective with these dates of origin: Train 7 of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th and Train 8 of the 31st, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The dates are staggered so rail equipment is in the correct location to resume service eastbound on the 4th and westbound on the 5th.”


----------



## TraneMan

D.P. Roberts said:


> Hmmm.... so the EB is almost entirely cancelled from June 1 to June 4. I have a CHI-PDX trip scheduled on 27 roughly a week or two after that time frame. On a schedule of 1 to 10 (from 1 being "don't worry" to 10 being "cancel immediately"), how concerned should I be about that trip?
> 
> I had planned a round trip on the EB, but rescheduled the eastbound portion via a different route, as that leg is more time sensitive. I couldn't care less if the westbound EB is running really late, but cancelled altogether is bad.
> 
> What does Amtrak do if a train is completely cancelled like that? Just refund you your money (or AGR points), and that's it? Even if it's half of a round trip?


I wouldn't worry.. I know I am not.. our trip is on the 23rd and return on July 1st.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## jebr

Gah, not even alternate bus transportation? Who makes these decisions? I know bus travel sucks, but seriously, Amtrak should still provide *an* option, especially since we subsidize them because they (at least claim to) offer transportation to areas that don't have many other options. But when they cancel it like that without any other options, it really kills their reputation, at least in my view.


----------



## tim49424

TraneMan said:


> I wouldn't worry.. I know I am not.. our trip is on the 23rd and return on July 1st.
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


.....and if you're not going to worry about yours, I'm not going to worry about ours at the end of July.


----------



## andersone

my sainted pappy, used to say "worry is interest on a debt that hasn't been incurred" so I shall not worry about my early August trip, even though it has been planned for almost a year with the such amenities as balcony rooms at the Many Glacier hotel waiting for us,,,,


----------



## CHamilton

Here's another story about shippers and their complaints. This group, from Albert Lea, MN, took their grievances to Sen. Al Franken.



> Franken hears rail concerns
> 
> 
> ALBERT LEA --- Rail delays cause headaches for shippers, but it's consumers and farmers who will end up paying the freight.
> 
> Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., was in Albert Lea Wednesday to discuss rail shipping with representatives of the ethanol, grain, fertilizer and energy industries. The group of eight met at the office of the Albert Lea-Freeborn County Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> Individuals took turns sharing their experiences with railroad companies as Franken listened and asked questions.
> He heard that railroad service has improved from the winter, but there's still a lot of grain inventory that needs to be hauled to markets. Complaints included a railroad that refuses to take freight into an area it doesn't want and another that unilaterally raises rates. Many shippers are fearful of stepping forward to share their shipping concerns for fear of retaliation, some said.
> Having shippers fear retaliation is not healthy, Franken said after the meeting. The United States prides itself on having open markets, and the situation he heard described in Albert Lea is anything but.
> "That's corruption," he said.
> Franken planned to take the information he learned back to the Surface Transportation Board, which has jurisdiction over railroads.


----------



## montana mike

From BNSF yesterday:

By 2016, we plan to double track 115 miles of the Glasgow Subdivision with a planned investment of $156 million for five sections of double track on this subdivision in 2014. The 2014 projects will increase capacity on the Glasgow Subdivision to 62 trains per day – an increase of 10 trains per day.

It is important to note a several things, first their confirmation that the major track work will be finished some time in 2016 (my sources say Fall of 2016). Second, the 115 miles of double tracking will of course help, but this represents a catch up to meet current demand and not projections for 2016, which internally BNSF says could reach as high as 70-75 trains a day. Something has to give here. Either BNSF reroutes traffic, as they are doing on a large scale now, or just slow everything down--likely to do both. Lastly, my own BNSF contacts say over 300 miles of Hi-Line track need to be double tracked in key bottlenecked areas as identified by their own people. So far the funding for the difference has not been addressed by the powers that be at BNSF HQ.

​

On my just completed trek on the Empire Builder it was my observation that it was not necessarily the energy trains that were the primary driver of the delays, rather it was the sheer volume of ALL traffic. I have lived in MT, and observed the traffic on the BNSF mainline thru WFH for many years now and the increase in intermodal traffic over the past 12+ months has been amazing to see. We need to keep this in mind, that while the energy boom has indeed been the "news" here, it is an all of the above issue with increases in a variety of traffic that has brought us to this tipping point. FYI-our conductor on the EB did point out to me when we were in Williston, a number of brand new, tanker cars that are the vanguard of BNSF's order of 5000 new cars for the Baaken.


----------



## yarrow

took 28 pdx-spk yesterday evening. beautiful trip. left pdx on time. arrived spk to the minute despite some freight congestion and having to wait for an 11 hour late 27 to clear the depot at psc. was sitting in the ssl when the sleeper folks trooped down around 5pm to collect their boxed dinners. exclusively a group of gray haired couples. i just wondered how much of their good humor might remain when they finally get to chi


----------



## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> Either BNSF reroutes traffic, as they are doing on a large scale now, or just slow everything down--likely to do both.


Can BNSF (or any other company) effectively kill off the EB (or another train) with slow orders?

Amtrak allowed BNSF to cancel the EB June 1-4 so that they could do track maintenance. What's to stop BNSF from saying that their track is so bad that they need to cancel for 4 months, or 4 years? Something like this: "Due to existing poor track conditions that will take years to fix, all trains on the Hi Line are limited to 25 MPH for large sections. Sure, we'll send the EB across that track just like all the other freight, but it will take you a week to get from CHI-SEA."


----------



## montana mike

Good point. It certainly could happen. My BNSF local contacts say the Hi-Line situation is sooooo chaotic that top BH people are monitoring the BNSF management's response and requiring daily updates to the situation. Additionally, there have been some pretty angry words between BNSF and several Ag Coops and LD Intermodal haulers over BNSF's horrendously poor performance in moving their goods over the past 6-9 months.

What I saw two days ago on the Surrey Cutoff was a real eye opener. To see that many freights and watch as we literally crawled along for most of the entire day was a manifestation of the heart of the matter. For almost 90 minutes, according to our attendant and conductor, we and over a dozen freights just sat on the cut off while the dispatchers tried to untangle the grid lock. We even had to back up quite a ways to a siding in order to let three additional freights go by so we could advance another 45 minutes or so at about 25 mph to the next siding, where we pulled in and again waited for multiple freights to go by. It's 260 miles or so on the cut off and normally this takes about 5 hours. It took us 13 hours!!!


----------



## PaulM

CHamilton said:


> Here's another story about shippers and their complaints. This group, from Albert Lea, MN, took their grievances to Sen. Al Franken.


A critical economic activity enjoying an unregulated monopoly.

Duh! What do you want for nothing? Your money back?


----------



## CHamilton

D.P. Roberts said:


> Can BNSF (or any other company) effectively kill off the EB (or another train) with slow orders?
> 
> Amtrak allowed BNSF to cancel the EB June 1-4 so that they could do track maintenance. What's to stop BNSF from saying that their track is so bad that they need to cancel for 4 months, or 4 years? Something like this: "Due to existing poor track conditions that will take years to fix, all trains on the Hi Line are limited to 25 MPH for large sections. Sure, we'll send the EB across that track just like all the other freight, but it will take you a week to get from CHI-SEA."


I think that Amtrak should be working on contingency plans for just such an eventuality. If the Hi-Line becomes totally blocked, they should consider moving the service further south, either to something resembling the old North Coast Hiawatha route, or if that won't work (lots of traffic there, too) to something like the old Pioneer route.

Of course, such moves would lose customers along the current EB route, but would potentially maintain enough traffic to/from the Northwest to make running these trains worthwhile.


----------



## philabos

All the letter writing, hearings, articles and general hand wringing is not going to fix this situation. Ten years ago the same was written about the Sunset Limited and the Coast Starlight. A quick perusal of the April 2014 performance stats tell me those two trains now have the best on time records of the long distance trains just like the EB did in those days. BNSF is going to have to do a lot of work to get out of this mess, just like UP did back then. You will not get up tomorrow morning and find this fixed.


----------



## yarrow

i traveled on 28 yesterday so missed the cancellations by 1 day. i wonder how long amtrak has known about this and how recently joe "let them eat cake" boardman informed folks that their graduation trips, vacations and such were ruined?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

"Run The Darn Trains"

That my response.


----------



## pianocat

Alright...another "Should I be making other plans"? intervention here. I am scheduled on EB from SPK - CHI leaving on Aug. 5. I HAVE to be back to my job on Sunday, Aug.10. Not worried about the trip south out of CHI. But if this line is taking all sorts of cavalier attitudes about informing pax re: lateness from SPK, then I have a real problem with them.. Big issue is this - I've checked, and though there are many flights out of SPK to ORD, they're mostly through SEA, and I really don't want to do this unless absolutely necessary. If i miss my Sunday, Aug. 10 commitments, so be it. Nothing is etched in stone. But why. oh WHY do they not give us an honest assessment of this line/schedule? That is something I just don't understand!.


----------



## yarrow

pianocat said:


> Alright...another "Should I be making other plans"? intervention here. I am scheduled on EB from SPK - CHI leaving on Aug. 5. I HAVE to be back to my job on Sunday, Aug.10. Not worried about the trip south out of CHI. But if this line is taking all sorts of cavalier attitudes about informing pax re: lateness from SPK, then I have a real problem with them.. Big issue is this - I've checked, and though there are many flights out of SPK to ORD, they're mostly through SEA, and I really don't want to do this unless absolutely necessary. If i miss my Sunday, Aug. 10 commitments, so be it. Nothing is etched in stone. But why. oh WHY do they not give us an honest assessment of this line/schedule? That is something I just don't understand!.


it sounds like you have a pretty tight schedule on your trip which is normal for most folks. we used to take amtrak for family trips before i retired and i had a definite date, as do working folk, i had to be back. missed it a couple times when amtrak pulled the train from under us. i would not take the eb without allowing an extra day at each end. i would not take it if i had a tight schedule. amtrak is rarely proactive in informing us lowly passengers of much of anything


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Pianocats the problem is the status changes ever day. Nobody know how bad the timetable is going to be on a certain day. A lot is construction, which is a Monday to Friday thing. Some are derailments. Amtrak should be more open about delays, but that just drive away the customer. The whole canceling of trains is mess up people plan, but Joe "Let them eat cake" Boardman is allowing that to happen.

If you need to be somewhere don't take this train.

Ouch that hurt just typing it.


----------



## pianocat

I've built in an extra day in Chicago. The assumption is it will be late enough to not make that CONO connection. Guess what I'm asking here is do I need to program YET another day into this whole plan??? Don't get me wrong I would love another day in Chicago, but I need to be back by Sunday to my job. If that doesn't work then I don't give a rat's ass. So I miss it I don't care. But sure would like to be here for my responsibility


----------



## montana mike

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Pianocats the problem is the status changes ever day. Nobody know how bad the timetable is going to be on a certain day. A lot is construction, which is a Monday to Friday thing. Some are derailments. Amtrak should be more open about delays, but that just drive away the customer. The whole canceling of trains is mess up people plan, but Joe "Let them eat cake" Boardman is allowing that to happen.
> 
> If you need to be somewhere don't take this train.
> 
> Ouch that hurt just typing it.


Actually at least a portion of the construction is ongoing 7 days a week over the summer. They are literally racing against the clock to try to get some of the stuff done so this winter won't be another disaster.


----------



## pianocat

I think I'm going to take the attitude of when I get there I get there If my church service doesn't like it they can lump it Otherwise I will worry needlessly for another two months


----------



## PRR 60

pianocat said:


> I think I'm going to take the attitude of when I get there I get there If my church service doesn't like it they can lump it Otherwise I will worry needlessly for another two months


If worse come to worse, Southwest has a non-stop from Spokane to Chicago, Midway (and several connections). It would be a viable plan if Amtrak pulls the EB completely out from under you with the dreaded "no alternate transportation."


----------



## JayPea

I was going to suggest Southwest into Midway also. Frontier offers flights to Midway as well, but their schedules are iffy, and, as I discovered last year while trying to fly out to visit my uncle, who lives near Champaign, subject to cancellation at the last minute. I live near Spokane and have flown in and out of Midway for several years.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As others have said you were wise to allow an extra day in CHI since the EB is so unpredictable and will continue to be probably for the rest of the year!

If Amtrak was to cancel you out in Spokane as was said Southwest Airlines is the way to go and Amtrak would owe you a Refund of Points or Money if they cancel your Train East of Spokane!

I personally think the extra day in CHI will ensure you catching the CONO a Lock, I wouldn't worry, life's too short!


----------



## AngusThompsom

Just got our e-mail about the two hour reschedule. Our trip is for June 28th ish, I could use some advice on how to "combat" my wife's ad version to flying. While looking forward to the journey , we do have plans with the family, everybody is busy after all and I can only schedule so many days off to "ride the rails", this is getting scary .

This obsession with domestic oil production is really harshing my mellow.

The thought of the significant other and I seeing 'Murica via Amtrak is awesome, but I don't want our 5 year vacation back east to be a tale of sorrow and woe.

I'm (we) are willing to spend to keep the economy going, and understand job creation, even spatial relation( just to make the thread cool), imagining the death throws of...wait for it... An Empire, is a bummer.

Trying to keep the glass half full yo!


----------



## The Whistler

We just changed our trip reservations on the #8 EB train for June for the second time. We were originally hoping to get the connection to the Cardinal back to PHL. Then we noticed the gross lateness of the Empire builder so to have a cushion of three hours we changed the connection reservation to the CL to WAS and the Regional to PHL. Then Amtrak calls this week and says that NO connection guarantees are being made for the EB and that its very unlikely that we will make the connection to the CL so we again change the reservation now to the LSL that leaves at 9:30PM and the Regional at NYP. Although the EB is scheduled to arrive at 3:45 PM and the LSL departs at 9:30, we still do not have a high degree of confidence that we will make the connection AND this is with the new schedule that has the EB leaving Seattle 2 hours early.

The USA really needs the Keystone pipeline or the railroad a second track system to see any change in the Fargo bottleneck. We decide to tear up the railroads years back and then we wonder why there is now no capacity


----------



## Romany16

Keystone XL will not carry Bakken Crude.

It will carry only Canadian Tar Sands oil.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## andersone

I leave LSE for GPK on August 6th and already built an extra day in. It's 1,914 miles or 29 hours by Google Maps from Jackson,,,, and just 555 miles to get to LSE,,, so plan b is leaving anther day earlier and drive it all,,,, if they cancel i will do this as the Many Glacier reservations can't be changed,,, i have two extra return days already to drive from LSE to Death Moines,, then home.

Not what i wanted, but I still will do it as I will never have the chance. May have to cancel the stop to see the twin sister of my former mother in law by marriage but that is not, in the words of REM, the end of the world as we know it,,,,,


----------



## Ispolkom

Romany16 said:


> Keystone XL will not carry Bakken Crude.
> 
> It will carry only Canadian Tar Sands oil.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Not true. The North Dakota Pipeline Authority says that if it's built it will carry 100k barrels of North Dakota crude a day.

I arrived in St. Paul this morning on the last #8 before the hiatus. There was a bus at Minot for passengers going to Rugby, Devils Lake and Grand Forks, because we took the Surrey Cut Off again. Traveling westwards last week we were 6 hours late, bucking eastbound traffic. Heading east, we traveled at 45 mph from Minot to Karlsruhe, where the freight train in front of us took the siding and gave us open track to Fargo. I don't think that we lost an hour between Minot and St. Paul. I was in the Portland sleeper, and when I walked to the dining car, it seemed to me that the coaches were less full than I'd expect for the beginning of summer.


----------



## tonys96

pianocat said:


> I think I'm going to take the attitude of when I get there I get there If my church service doesn't like it they can lump it Otherwise I will worry needlessly for another two months


This is the best attitude, by far. Worry is a payment on a debt you may never owe.


----------



## neroden

CHamilton said:


> Amending PRIIA 207 was one of the goals we had at last month's NARP Day on Capitol Hill. We asked our elected representatives for a very simple change, which would overcome the objections of the court:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give the Federal Railroad Administration sole authority to develop performance metrics and standards specified in PRIIA section 207, deleting the words "...and Amtrak shall jointly..."
> 
> 
> 
> The representatives I spoke with were very receptive to making this change. And it's my understanding that the FRA was well along in developing the standards before the court decision, so they could hopefully be implemented quickly.
Click to expand...

Good stuff, CHamilton, and I hope we can do that. I'm not sure whether there's anything I can do to help (we're gerrymandered and my Congressman is simply not responsive to my part of the district). I'm honestly not sure why the FRA was given the responsibility rather than the STB. PRIIA seems to make the STB the arbiter of disputes; did Congress want them to be separate from the standards-setting agency?


----------



## CHamilton

neroden said:


> Good stuff, CHamilton, and I hope we can do that. I'm not sure whether there's anything I can do to help (we're gerrymandered and my Congressman is simply not responsive to my part of the district). I'm honestly not sure why the FRA was given the responsibility rather than the STB. PRIIA seems to make the STB the arbiter of disputes; did Congress want them to be separate from the standards-setting agency?


You can certainly talk to your Senators, and it never hurts to contact your Congressional representative, even if they aren't too responsive. This is the sort of thing that can appeal to a wide political spectrum, since it requires almost no public funding. Also, if there are other representatives near you who are on the Transportation and Infrastructure committee, you should contact them as well.

I don't know the history of why FRA was tapped for this job rather than the STB. The FRA has seen its responsibilities expanded in recent years, in such areas as managing TIGER grants, so maybe that's related.


----------



## yarrow

i don't understand why the connection between 27 and 11 has been reestablished. 27 is operating on the modified(meaning a scheduled later arrival in pdx)schedule. in the past week 27 would have made the connection twice. i am glad connections are being reestablished but if the trains don't make them what is the point?


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Good stuff, CHamilton, and I hope we can do that. I'm not sure whether there's anything I can do to help (we're gerrymandered and my Congressman is simply not responsive to my part of the district). I'm honestly not sure why the FRA was given the responsibility rather than the STB. PRIIA seems to make the STB the arbiter of disputes; did Congress want them to be separate from the standards-setting agency?


FRA in general sets the operational standards for railroad operations. I think that may be the reason they got the responsibility to set the standard. STB has a significant role in enforcement of the standard. STB was considerably defanged when ICC was terminated, since at that time ICCs stndard setting role was seen as the villain. So STB really has never been a standard setting agency for operational matters, which running trains on schedule definitely falls into. As expected STB did get a role in enforcement and arbitration.


----------



## montana mike

I find it interesting that Amtrak is referring to the cancelled Empire Builders over the next several days as "Service Disruptions" and not cancellations???

I am sure the thousands of folks who got the rug pulled out from under them would be surprised at how Amtrak is characterizing this mess.


----------



## MrFSS

montana mike said:


> I find it interesting that Amtrak is referring to the cancelled Empire Builders over the next several days as "Service Disruptions" and not cancellations???
> 
> I am sure the thousands of folks who got the rug pulled out from under them would be surprised at how Amtrak is characterizing this mess.


I wonder how many of those 1000's of folks will say, "Never again will I ride Amtrak"?

Doesn't Amtrak understand what they are doing?


----------



## Bob Dylan

That's just it Tom, the Amtrak "Managers" that are going along with this Mess and dreaming up the scheme of the day Don't understand! If it was the Military wed call it FUBAR! (G version: fouled up beyond all recognition!)

They're riding their desk, attending meetings and when they do ride Trains (for Free!)ts in Acela FC or on Beech Grove where the Delays, Missed Connections, Cancellations and the Nickel and Dime cuts don't apply! "Let them eat cake!"

The losses on the Empire Builder will be staggering this year! Where's the budget hawks and Hi Line Congress Critters in this mess?


----------



## fairviewroad

MrFSS said:


> I wonder how many of those 1000's of folks will say, "Never again will I ride Amtrak"?


In reality, some of those folks will say "Never will I ride Amtrak."

The word "again" implies they actually made it onto the train in the first place.


----------



## Andy

My brother and I have a trip on the EB from Whitefish to Chicago and then on the LSL to Framingham beginning on Saturday. Amtrak told me (reservation line) me that starting 6/5 the Empire Builder is planned to take its entire route all the way to Chicago. Since we purchased the trip with points she sent me to Guest Rewards who said in the event the EB is cancelled they may refund our points but that's uncertain. We're already being bussed from Albany to Framingham on the LSL and that we won't receive a credit of points but an "accommodation", possibly a voucher. Yeesh. It would be AWFUl to go from a sleeper for a day and a half to being on a bus for a day and a half!!


----------



## montana mike

Andy said:


> My brother and I have a trip on the EB from Whitefish to Chicago and then on the LSL to Framingham beginning on Saturday. Amtrak told me (reservation line) me that starting 6/5 the Empire Builder is planned to take its entire route all the way to Chicago. Since we purchased the trip with points she sent me to Guest Rewards who said in the event the EB is cancelled they may refund our points but that's uncertain. We're already being bussed from Albany to Framingham on the LSL and that we won't receive a credit of points but an "accommodation", possibly a voucher. Yeesh. It would be AWFUl to go from a sleeper for a day and a half to being on a bus for a day and a half!!


Welcome to the world of uncertainty that is Amtrak right now. It's a LD system on the edge. Not all their fault of course, but sometimes they don't help passengers out that much during a crisis. I hope your trip comes off as planed on Saturday. The LSL is the only connecting train you have a shot of making btw--good choice! We just did that entire trip (finishing in Rochester, NY vs Mass.) and even with the 5 1/2 hour official connection time in CHI we only had about 40 minutes between when the EB arrived and the LSL departed. Let's think good thoughts for an on time arrival in WFH for you early Saturday morning and a reasonably decent arrival time in CHI to allow you to make the LSL!!


----------



## NW cannonball

After about 40 minutes waiting on Julie'e agent, there may be a stub train MSP-CHI this morning or not. The agent said I could buy a ticket MSP-CHI for $96 but I declined. Yesterday's short-train CHI-MSP was listed as a "service disruption"

I'm just figuring that nobody knows *** is happening on what used to be a reliable cross-country route.

Toobad so sad,


----------



## EB_OBS

The cancellation is for MSP-MOT.

There is service MSP-CHI & CHI-MSP every day during the disruption.


----------



## tim49424

EB_OBS said:


> There is service MSP-CHI & CHI-MSP every day during the disruption.


Did 807 run last night and 808 run today? They both were listed as service disruptions and taken off the status map.

EDIT: Now I see 807 is supposed to leave from CHI today. 7 is listed there too.


----------



## montana mike

I can't see how this could get more confusing!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sounds like a Marx Brothers or Keystone Cops Movie!

As the Late/Great Vince Lombardi said: " What the hell is going on out there"!!!???


----------



## tricia

montana mike said:


> I can't see how this could get more confusing!!!


That's what I'd have thought months ago. :blink:


----------



## pennyk

I have not been following this thread because I did not think that I had any EB related questions or issues. Now, I think I do. My nephew just moved from Maryland to Eugene, Oregon and drove out there Memorial Day weekend. Before he and his wife left MD, my sister shipped a bunch of boxes via Amtrak from WAS to Eugene. The boxes should have arrived in Eugene a while ago and have not arrived. My nephew's wife was told that the delay was due to construction and to check back in a couple of days. I assume that the boxes were on the EB and I assume the "EB Mess" is the reason for the delay.

Has anyone experienced a similar shipping delay?


----------



## CHamilton

pennyk said:


> Has anyone experienced a similar shipping delay?


Last Christmas, Amazon missed a bunch of delivery deadlines (including mine) because UPS freight was stuck on BNSF Hi-Line trains. The current situation is not quite the same thing, but is certainly related.


----------



## CHamilton

A friend on Facebook posts:



> The truncated Minot-Seattle still managed to arrive King St Sta 2:38 late.


----------



## CHamilton

Via the Empire Builder group on Facebook:



> The temporary MSP-CHI Empire Builder stub consist is two P42s, two
> coaches, a coach-baggage and a Sightseer lounge.
> 
> On both 807(3) and 808(3) there was not enough passenger load to
> require opening all three coaches; one was closed and locked.
> This has been typical since June 1 when the stub train operation
> began; average load has been 65-75.
> 
> 
> Crew: engineer, conductor, assistant conductor (change
> at Winona), two coach attendants, lounge car Lead Service
> Attendant.
> 
> Through June 3, Trains 807 and 808 have been in permanent Service
> Disruption status, so that no information about their operation can
> be seen online. The Service Disruption also blocked Internet sales
> of space on these trains, though agents at staffed stations were
> still selling and ticketing the trains. Finally somebody at Amtrak
> may have realized the Service Disruption status was a mistake; Train
> 807(4) displays normally and prospective passengers can book and
> ticket reservations at amtrak.com. However, Train 808(4) still shows
> as Disrupted.
> 
> Yesterday, Train 808(3) departed St. Paul on time. It went five miles
> and then sat 100 minutes for an empty CP ethanol train. With a
> bottleneck resulting from a track out of service near St. Croix
> Jct., all intermediate sidings were occupied with freight trains,
> both live and dead.
> 
> Train 807(3) was delayed toward the end of its run after
> a nearly on-time trip; it arrived St. Paul Union Depot 26 minutes
> late. Passengers detraining at St. Paul found the Amtrak ticket
> office closed, dark and locked. Those with checked bags were looking
> for an Amtrak employee (it takes a long time for bags to arrive,
> because the tractor has to drive nearly a half mile from the baggage
> car to the bag claim area). The two on-duty Amtrak agents were found
> on a parking garage ramp; they said they were out there with the
> ticket counter closed "so we don't have to deal with all those
> people."
> 
> The train and engine crew turned the train on the Division Street
> wye just east of St. Paul Union Depot right after arrival. That is
> easier and quicker than turning all the seats and running the engines
> around the train, even if they are lined back-to-back.
> 
> A very reliable source says that through operation of Trains 7 and 8
> will resume this Friday, but warns of regular delays of up to
> six hours for the foreseeable future.


----------



## neroden

> The two on-duty Amtrak agents were found
> 
> on a parking garage ramp; they said they were out there with the
> 
> ticket counter closed "so we don't have to deal with all those
> 
> people."


OK, THEY need to be reported. I'm fairly sure they'd be fired almost immediately if this story is true.


----------



## CHamilton

I thought so too, although the use of the passive voice suggests that the poster wasn't speaking from their own experience...I hesitated to repost what amounts to a rumor, but thought it was important enough to pass on.


----------



## Henry Kisor

I don't believe that story at all. First, it's a classic third-party friend-of-a-friend story, the No. 1 indicator that a story is untrue. Second, do you really believe even the laziest Amtrak ticket agent would say "we don't want to deal with those people" knowing that the remark would become public?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

More to the point why can you not book a ticket on-line?

That a true screw up.

I sure the employees were doing something important like a meal break, not just hiding from the customer. That would never happens.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

It could happen. But I think they'd give a better excuse than that!


----------



## neroden

I've seen behavior worse than that at other organizations.

I would still be surprised to see behavior that bad at St. Paul Amtrak unless there's been a major change in staff, since the St. Paul staff were always very helpful when I was there.


----------



## montana mike

Quick BNSF Update: As folks may have noticed, even the truncated versions of the EB's have been losing 6-10+ hours on their treks over the past few days, with one of the EB's experiencing a 13 hour delay-ouch. My BNSF contacts say this may still happen occasionally, even after the full EB service is restored. BNSF has a virtual logjam of freight business ongoing and until new track construction is complete, things might even get a little worse before they get better. One tiny ray of hope, they did say the track construction was slightly ahead of schedule. BTW-The 115 mile double tracking plan for the Hi-Line finishes up in late 2016. Only a small part of this plan will be completed (less than 25%) in 2014. 2015 will be a bigger construction effort on the part of BNSF.

Both my local contacts said they have never seen things so "screwed up" on this route. Yes, the Empire Builders have been ridiculously late, but some freight traffic has been days and weeks behind and off the record has cost them some business as some customers have gotten creative in finding other ways to move their goods. The Intermodal ops are the ones that have lost the most new biz, since that is the easiest to move. Coal, agro and energy are less flexible.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> One tiny ray of hope, they did say the track construction was slightly ahead of schedule.


Well, that's good!



> BTW-The 115 mile double tracking plan for the Hi-Line finishes up in late 2016. Only a small part of this plan will be completed (less than 25%) in 2014. 2015 will be a bigger construction effort on the part of BNSF.


So BNSF should hire some more temporary gandydancers! There are lots of people out of work in this country! I understand if engineering and environmental review and buying land and ordering switchpoints manufactured and materials delivered and so forth is slowing things down, but the actual track installation isn't highly skilled labor, and it should be possible to do it pretty much all at once.


----------



## montana mike

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> One tiny ray of hope, they did say the track construction was slightly ahead of schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's good!
> 
> 
> 
> BTW-The 115 mile double tracking plan for the Hi-Line finishes up in late 2016. Only a small part of this plan will be completed (less than 25%) in 2014. 2015 will be a bigger construction effort on the part of BNSF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So BNSF should hire some more temporary gandydancers! There are lots of people out of work in this country! I understand if engineering and environmental review and buying land and ordering switchpoints manufactured and materials delivered and so forth is slowing things down, but the actual track installation isn't highly skilled labor, and it should be possible to do it pretty much all at once.
Click to expand...

It may be more about available time to do the construction. The "season" as we all know, is quite short in the northern tier of the US.


----------



## George Harris

neroden said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> One tiny ray of hope, they did say the track construction was slightly ahead of schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's good!
> 
> 
> 
> BTW-The 115 mile double tracking plan for the Hi-Line finishes up in late 2016. Only a small part of this plan will be completed (less than 25%) in 2014. 2015 will be a bigger construction effort on the part of BNSF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So BNSF should hire some more temporary gandydancers! There are lots of people out of work in this country! I understand if engineering and environmental review and buying land and ordering switchpoints manufactured and materials delivered and so forth is slowing things down, but the actual track installation isn't highly skilled labor, and it should be possible to do it pretty much all at once.
Click to expand...

To the contrary. Track installation is highly specialized both in skills and machinery. You are not going to find worthwhile track labor by wandering down to the unemployment office and grabbing the first few strong looking men you see. If you get the opportunity get out and watch such stuff as a T&S (tie and surfacing) operation or a rail replacement gang at work and you will see what I mean. The other problem involved is stopping for every train passage. That can eat up a lot of the work day on an hgih volumen railroad. Even if you do not have to clear the track since this will be on a new roadbed, it will still be adjacent to a live track, so for safety reasons work is paused while the trains go by. Also, the traisn will be passing with a slow order, to what speed I do not know for this situation.

For the most part the work should be within existing right of way. Getting material delivered and on site may be somewhat of a critical path issue, but this could have started as soon as the decision was made to do the work and go in parallel with gettin permits as needed and doing the grading and drainage work.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

I would hope BNSF is building new track on 25 foot clearance. Like the UP has done.

My understand at 25 feet MOW equipment does not impact the track next to it. Sure a slow order and ring bell is a great idea, but the MOW equipment can keep work as the train past.

25 feet between the center of both tracks.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> So BNSF should hire some more temporary gandydancers! There are lots of people out of work in this country! I understand if engineering and environmental review and buying land and ordering switchpoints manufactured and materials delivered and so forth is slowing things down, but the actual track installation isn't highly skilled labor, and it should be possible to do it pretty much all at once.


In addition to what George said, there's almost certainly union restrictions on being able to hire temporary workers.


----------



## montana mike

Looking at all of the equipment that is indeed used to lay the track I would have to agree this isn't just finding some strong backs able to wield a hammer.


----------



## MrFSS

BNSF's latest ad.


----------



## montana mike

))

I do believe the loss of revenue is having an impact. While BNSF could care less about Amtrak, potentially losing millions each month in Intermodal traffic alone has gotten the attention of the executive suite. I understand several of the TL carriers, a major container shipper from China, and one of the expedite firms (supposedly UPS) read the riot act to BNSF people over the past couple weeks. Telling them to get their act together or they are moving their biz to another carrier.

They have dug themselves such a deep hole over the past three plus years this isn't something that is "cured" in a matter of weeks or months though.


----------



## George Harris

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I would hope BNSF is building new track on 25 foot clearance. Like the UP has done.
> 
> My understand at 25 feet MOW equipment does not impact the track next to it. Sure a slow order and ring bell is a great idea, but the MOW equipment can keep work as the train past.
> 
> 25 feet between the center of both tracks.


Whether or not this is done depends upon quite a few factors, such as increased cost of earthwork, right of way, etc. The grading and drainage, which the most of the work anyway, has to go right up to the exiting track. The 25 feet is more of an advantage in future maintenance work. If you look at pictures of where the UP has done this 25 feet offset, you will see that it is in the middle of nowhere. If there are constraints on land, the track centers will come down.


----------



## CHamilton

Amtrak wraps up unexpected suspension of runs between St. Paul, Minot


----------



## The Davy Crockett

MrFSS said:


> BNSF's latest ad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4715.jpg


Maybe 'stronger than ever' as BNSF, but certainly not when the High Line was run by James Hill!


----------



## Ispolkom

Paulus said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So BNSF should hire some more temporary gandydancers! There are lots of people out of work in this country! I understand if engineering and environmental review and buying land and ordering switchpoints manufactured and materials delivered and so forth is slowing things down, but the actual track installation isn't highly skilled labor, and it should be possible to do it pretty much all at once.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to what George said, there's almost certainly union restrictions on being able to hire temporary workers.
Click to expand...

And where would you find temporary workers in the oil patch? Even if you did, where would you house them?


----------



## Bob Dylan

You could always house them in trailers like FEMA does after Hurricanes and other Natural Disasters! I'm sure BNSF could cut a deal with a Mobile Housing Manufacturer!

Other method would be having the gangs live in converted railcars like Railroads used to do when they eliminated section housing for crews!

Maybe they could use their Business Cars as housing and offer Bonuses and wages competitive with the Oil Bid since its all a tax write off anyway!


----------



## Ispolkom

jimhudson said:


> You could always house them in trailers like FEMA does after Hurricanes and other Natural Disasters! I'm sure BNSF could cut a deal with a Mobile Housing Manufacturer!


And ship them in on the uncrowded freight line? And hook them up to what water and sewer? There are already huge temporary housing areas called (I'm not kidding) "man camps" which are built as fast as they can be. Me, I like to have a basement out on the prairie, but YMMV.


----------



## NW cannonball

Ispolkom said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could always house them in trailers like FEMA does after Hurricanes and other Natural Disasters! I'm sure BNSF could cut a deal with a Mobile Housing Manufacturer!
> 
> 
> 
> And ship them in on the uncrowded freight line? And hook them up to what water and sewer? There are already huge temporary housing areas called (I'm not kidding) "man camps" which are built as fast as they can be. Me, I like to have a basement out on the prairie, but YMMV.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the "man camps" have been visible from the Empire Builder for at least the last two years. What we used to call "trailer courts" but with "hot bunking" -- sheesh - the Bakken is a "boom town" - these $30/hr (absolute minimum wage) - dishwashers get $40, laborers get much more) but pay $3500/month absolute minimum for a time-share on a narrow bunk in a single-wide. You want a room of your own, you commute from SPK or MSP, or pay twice San Jose prices for any lodgings.

It's hard to convince outsiders just what a boom-town the Williston area is. It is insane. Might be a bit like the 49'ers. It is totally insane.


----------



## PRR 60

NW cannonball said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could always house them in trailers like FEMA does after Hurricanes and other Natural Disasters! I'm sure BNSF could cut a deal with a Mobile Housing Manufacturer!
> 
> 
> 
> And ship them in on the uncrowded freight line? And hook them up to what water and sewer? There are already huge temporary housing areas called (I'm not kidding) "man camps" which are built as fast as they can be. Me, I like to have a basement out on the prairie, but YMMV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, the "man camps" have been visible from the Empire Builder for at least the last two years. What we used to call "trailer courts" but with "hot bunking" -- sheesh - the Bakken is a "boom town" - these $30/hr (absolute minimum wage) - dishwashers get $40, laborers get much more) but pay $3500/month absolute minimum for a time-share on a narrow bunk in a single-wide. You want a room of your own, you commute from SPK or MSP, or pay twice San Jose prices for any lodgings.
> 
> It's hard to convince outsiders just what a boom-town the Williston area is. It is insane. Might be a bit like the 49'ers. It is totally insane.
Click to expand...

Our daughter lives about 45 miles southwest of Williston in Sidney MT, and it is totally nuts out there. Unemployment is basically zero (anyone unemployed _wants_ to be unemployed). The local McDonalds is only open five days a week, a couple of hours a day, drive-thru only because they can't find anyone willing to work (even though that McD's is offering over $15/hour). Our son lives in Brooklyn (now, there's a contrast), and the apartment he shares there costs less than a similar apartment in Sidney. Anyone who has not seen it (on the ground, not from a train window) would not believe what it is like.


----------



## neroden

I'm just remembering how the railroads were built in the 19th century. Yeah, we wouldn't want to repeat the callous disregard for worker life, but they just shipped in huge gangs of people and built their own towns. Like the oil patch is doing right now. It's a choice to do it more slowly.


----------



## jis

In the 19th century the tracks were also of such quality that it was not uncommon for trains to quite often just fall off the track at random places too.  Fortunately speeds were low and if you were not unfortunate enough to also fall down the mountainside in the process, it was also not hard to recover from those frequent mishaps.

it really is much much easier to just be an armchair specialist, isn't it?


----------



## Ispolkom

Well to be fair, it was also bad when the bridge collapsed, or, my favorite, the train derailed off the bridge, hit the frozen river, and the resulting fire burned both the train, and the bridge.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> In the 19th century the tracks were also of such quality that it was not uncommon for trains to quite often just fall off the track at random places too.


Which seems to happen often enough on CSX, and happened on BNSF just a couple of weeks ago, didn't it?

Sorry, I'm not buying the excuses. You do roadbed preparation (bit of a pain, but it's similar to highway construction, so well understood and lots of firms can be brought in). Then you put down bottom ballast. Then you drop ties, drop rails, and attach the rails to the ties. Then you add more ballast. Thousands of miles can be built very quickly. You do the left-right geometric adjustments, which used to be very hard but is much easier with lasers. Then you start tamping. It's not rocket science; it isn't even bridge building. Switches are a bit more work.

The truth is that the old-fashioned, labor-intensive ways of building tracks are simply more *expensive*. They're perfectly capable of producing high-quality track. They just cost a great deal more than using machinery. (More than twice as much, last I checked.)

If all the machinery is already deployed, however, one should consider supplementing it by doing it the hard way. And if we were building these tracks for a military deployment, we probably would. I expect that BNSF won't consider this because it would increase its marginal costs for track installation (by a huge amount). And from their point of view, that makes sense. All about the profit margins. Go capitalism. :wacko:


----------



## Ispolkom

neroden said:


> The truth is that the old-fashioned, labor-intensive ways of building tracks are simply more *expensive*. They're perfectly capable of producing high-quality track. They just cost a great deal more than using machinery. (More than twice as much, last I checked.)


And more dangerous. And require people who know what they are doing. Hand labor is not unskilled labor, and I doubt that there are many good crew bosses sitting around unemployed in North Dakota.

In any case, expecting a corporation to do something in a manner that costs more and will take longer seems foolish to me. BNSF isn't a charity.


----------



## neroden

Ispolkom said:


> In any case, expecting a corporation to do something in a manner that costs more and will take longer seems foolish to me. BNSF isn't a charity.


I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying this is the actual underlying problem.

Privately owned for-profit railroads are a failed idea which has been abandoned in most of the world, just like privately owned for-profit roads have been abandoned in most of the world. Here in the underdeveloped US, however...


----------



## montana mike

You really seem to think our government can do this better? We need to take politics out of these discussions. Amtrak is what is is and the RR's own the tracks--period. That will almost surely NOT change. To bring into the discussion how wonderful the trains are in other countries because their government's run them (I have traveled around the world and taken trains in many countries and would strongly disagree with any blanket statement to that effect, some do run well, but many others are as bad or much worse, but that's not the point here) takes us away from the heart of the discussion. One could easily argue that if our government had not blocked the Keystone Pipeline, BNSF would not have had to add so many oil tankers to their fleet, and thus the mess we currently see on the hi-line may not have been as bad. Our federal government has also blocked some of the movement of this Baaken oil into Canada as well, which would have also been a short and easy solution to relieve some pressure on the BNSF system on the Hi-Line. Yes, BNSF is the one primarily responsible for digging this deep hole, but it was the wizard of Omaha and his minions who would not allow BNSF management to invest in their infrastructure as they had wanted and needed to. Every BNSF person I have spoken to here in MT has stated that they were totally hamstrung for three years in allocating and spending funds to upgrade the track system.


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> You really seem to think our government can do this better? We need to take politics out of these discussions.


I do. They will, if we demand it. At least they're notionally answerable to us, unlike BNSF.

You cite a need to take politics out of the discussion, but point out at every turn what a poor job you feel the government is doing. Pick one and stick with it.


----------



## montana mike

Not mutually exclusive events at all. FACT: the government is part of the problem on the Hi-Line. No one can deny that. If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south and perhaps almost as much flowing north in another pipeline into Canada.

FACT: BNSF's buy out by Berkshire Hathaway was indeed a factor, according to both public reports and BNSF's own employees BH prevented BNSF from investing in their infrastructure for the first three years of their ownership of the railroad, thus delaying needed improvements.

Our federal government is accountable to no one now. We are "ruled" by power brokers in DC and bureaucrats who are firmly entrenched in their power and no matter which party is in the WH this is the FACT. It is almost impossible to fire ANY federal bureaucrat-look at the GSA, IRS, State Dept and now the VA. Were ANY of the people involved in these scandals actually fired. NO. Not one (The head of the VA resigned, but he was a political appointee, and not actually one of the people who made those awful decisions which caused vets to wait 115 days just for an appointment to see a doctor). I was in Washington DC for over 8 years and had hundreds of very good federal employees work for me, but the ones who were dead wood or worse were virtually untouchable. It took me 3 years of diligent work to get rid of several really horrendous people. And it would have taken longer if the court suit brought by the union hadn't been thrown out.

BTW-Have you traveled trains throughout the world on a regular basis? As I said some are good, but many are as bad or much worse that our system. You also cannot compare a small country's train system, where their entire system amounts to less than what the NY city subway runs each day, with a country as vast as ours. A good example of both very good and terrible trains is in Europe. They are often fast, modern and generally reliable, until they go on strike (which they do often) or there is bad weather-in Italy for example often wind and rain will literally shut the service down for hours. Ditto in England, where London has a very good subway system but get "above ground" and things get dicey the further you get away from the City.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Really enjoy your info re the Hi Line and BNSF Mike but the Government can't do anything right mantra is old, tired and untrue! The biggest messes in our Corporate financial meltdowns. Let alone Corporate welfare. are always fixed by bailouts from the Evil Government! (Too Big to Fail!)

Disclaimer: I'm a retired Government Employee who spent 25 years in Sodom on the Potomac and an Overwhelming Majority of Government Programs and Civil Servants worked Great! It was the Micro-Managing Politicians and the "Bidness Persons" who wanted to run the Government like a Bidness that created the FUBARS! Just look @ Amtrak!

YMMV


----------



## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> FACT: the government is part of the problem on the Hi-Line. No one can deny that. If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south and perhaps almost as much flowing north in another pipeline into Canada.


This is not a fact. An increased demand for freight along the Hi Line is not the "fault" of those who would want that service. Can you blame the grain farmers who have contracts with BNSF to carry their grain? Can you blame "Christmas" for the increased demand by Amazon in December? BNSF agreed to these contracts, it is entirely their responsibility to fulfill their end of the bargain.


----------



## Dog Rancher

Interesting that my post—critical of the govt—was, evidently, removed while the "govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.

I'm starting to understand that political posts are not allowed—unless they mesh with the "Amtrak is great, it just needs more tax money" thinking.

So be it.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum


----------



## crescent2

I read your previous post and didn't find it any more "anything" than those expressing the opposite opinion. (I didn't find any of them offensive.) It's not unusual for threads to wander a little OT or even totally OT, but regardless, that would apply to both sides. I've seen a few posts removed from the forum with good reason, but I'm surprised that yours was. JMO

BTW, I think (traveling on) Amtrak is (usually) great, and it does need more money!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yours wasn't the only post removed Captain! Of course I never discuss Politics on here (LOL) so my Posts aren't deleted but seriously there is a Forum on here, Random Discussions,for this kind of Discussion and it really does cover a broad range of topics and opinions!


----------



## mwmnp

montana mike said:


> If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south


How many fewer trains would there be had the Keystone XL pipeline been built by now?


----------



## Ryan

Dog Rancher said:


> "govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.


Funny, I don't see any posts saying that.


----------



## Dog Rancher

jimhudson said:


> Yours wasn't the only post removed Captain! Of course I never discuss Politics on here (LOL) so my Posts aren't deleted but seriously there is a Forum on here, Random Discussions,for this kind of Discussion and it really does cover a broad range of topics and opinions!


I get that.

It is disconcerting, however, that the crowd clamoring for more govt funding for Amtrak and who defend the fraud and waste that is the hallmark of govt agencies and programs is allowed to post unfettered. Especially when another quasi-govt agency (USPS) is cited as a model of efficiency as compared to actually incredibly efficient companies like FedEx and UPS—both of whom I use on an almost daily basis to run my firm.

Anyway, I understand the slant of the board now.

Thanks.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Dog Rancher

RyanS said:


> Dog Rancher said:
> 
> 
> 
> "govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, I don't see any posts saying that.
Click to expand...

Actually I did—the OP mentioned FedEx and UPS by name as inefficient large corporations put to shame by the amazingly nimble USPS—who, in my experience, usually has their tracking updated within a couple of days of delivery. 
It's there but I'm not wasting my time looking for it. Too political.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

Put up or shut up. You don't get to claim "it's still there" if you can't find it. How do you know it wasn't removed?

The OP says absolutely nothing about any of this:



greatcats said:


> Now that the famed hamster has safely arrived in Syracuse, on to less pressing matters. I saw something about the EB was routed through New Rockford, ND, but yesterday's #8 just arrived in Chicago nearly 21 hours late. What messed up this time? Must have been a really fun trip.


----------



## MrFSS

Enough!!


----------



## Ryan

Sorry, Tom. You guys work too hard keeping this place running smoothly for some misinformed posters to complain about unfairness.


----------



## Dog Rancher

RyanS said:


> Put up or shut up. You don't get to claim "it's still there" if you can't find it. How do you know it wasn't removed?
> 
> The OP says absolutely nothing about any of this:
> 
> 
> 
> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that the famed hamster has safely arrived in Syracuse, on to less pressing matters. I saw something about the EB was routed through New Rockford, ND, but yesterday's #8 just arrived in Chicago nearly 21 hours late. What messed up this time? Must have been a really fun trip.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the guy who disparaged two companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people moving millions of packages daily and that still manage to make a profit without a govt hammock to support them.

The post was there. Whether it got removed or not isn't the issue. The issue, which I decline to pursue any further, is the "govt is great and they don't give Amtrak enough money" mindset.

Personally, I want NOTHING from the govt it isn't constitutionally required to provide—and this includes subsidies/bailouts for private businesses.

Pick a fight somewhere else.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Dog Rancher said:


> It is disconcerting, however, that the crowd clamoring for more govt funding for Amtrak and who defend the fraud and waste that is the hallmark of govt agencies and programs is allowed to post unfettered.





Dog Rancher said:


> The post was there. Whether it got removed or not isn't the issue.


I missed all the posts that were deleted, but you're contradicting yourself. On one hand, you're complaining that only one side of the issue is being given a voice - your posts are being deleted, and the side that you feel is opposing you remains. On the other, you admit that those opposing viewpoints may have been deleted, but this "isn't the issue"?


----------

