# Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread



## edjbox (Mar 23, 2015)

Since there is a topic for when viewliners will come on line, this topic will complement it in discussing which heritage cars are being retired. Anyone with any news please post here


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## HeritageBags (Mar 23, 2015)

Baggage car 1234 is enroute to Beech Grove via the Capitol Limited right now. A couple other 1200 series cars have gone to Beech for storage in the past few weeks. Probably some others, too. Looks like 1756 is on 851 to IND today.


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## R30A (Mar 23, 2015)

Copying and pasting from my post yesterday on RR.net trying to track the same thing:



> Considering that the Viewliner Baggage cars are said to be going into service tomorrow, I figured now is as good a time as any to start tracking the retirement of Heritage baggage cars.


The Fleet as it stood prior to the ordering of the Viewliner fleet: (Italicized are the cars retired between 2009 and now. Active cars in bold. Some retirements may have slipped by me.)

1953 ATSF Budd baggage cars:
*1159-1164, 1203-1204, 1206,* _1211_,* 1212,* _1216, 1221_,* 1234-1235, 1237, 1241-1242, 1245, 1247-1248, 1855, 1857*

1955 ATSF ACF baggage cars:
*1252,* _1253_, *1255, 1257, 1260*

1957 ATSF Budd baggage cars:
*1230-1232, 1249*

1957 Pullman Standard baggage carsACL and NP respectively)
_1132, 1135_

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Coach conversions:
*1709, 1754, 1760*

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Coach conversions:
*1702-1703, 1705,* _1707_, *1708, 1710-1712, 1714-1717, 1720, 1750, 1761*

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Coach conversions:
*1721, 1751-1753,* _1755_, *1762-1763*

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Coach conversions:
*1701, 1730-1731, 1733-1736, 1738, 1756-1759*

(Above comes from my notes, which rely heavily on Amtrak by the Numbers by Elbert Simon and David Warner, and the Wayner Car Spotters,in addition to the On-Track-On-Line website, and Passenger Train Annual 1988)


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## edjbox (Mar 23, 2015)

Which baggage car was on the Carolinian?


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## Bus Nut (Mar 24, 2015)

Surprised that Budd bags would be put out to pasture before the rattletrap coach conversions, but what do I know. (See username.)


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## edjbox (Apr 7, 2015)

Which baggage car was on the Carolinian that was involved in the recent wreck? Looked like a converted baggage/mail to me but can't tell the number


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## R30A (Apr 7, 2015)

1755 iinm


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## CREW DORM#2524 (Apr 8, 2015)

1755. It's still sitting along with E#185 in Rocky Mount.


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## Anderson (Apr 8, 2015)

Bus Nut said:


> Surprised that Budd bags would be put out to pasture before the rattletrap coach conversions, but what do I know. (See username.)


It's probably a case of Amtrak moving to retire almost all of them over the course of a few months. I count 71 baggage cars above, versus I believe 80 bags/bag-dorms Amtrak bought in the Viewliner II order (55+25 turned to 65+15 IIRC). Honestly, Amtrak is probably going to move them all to Beech Grove and then evaluate which (if any) it wants to hold as spares/backups in the event that an issue arises with the Viewliner IIs over the next 2-3 years.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 8, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> > Surprised that Budd bags would be put out to pasture before the rattletrap coach conversions, but what do I know. (See username.)
> ...


Current order: 70 full baggage cars, 10 baggage-dorm cars, 25 diners, 25 sleepers.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 18, 2015)

Just saw a 1700 series on the crescent


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## edjbox (Sep 22, 2015)

With the many new viewliner ii baggage cars now in service which old baggage cars have been retired since the spring?


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## dlagrua (Sep 22, 2015)

Anyone know how many Viewliner II Baggage cars and Baggage dorms have been deployed to date? On our last couple of trips we have only seen many Viewliner II Baggage cars and no Baggage dorms. When we left denver on Aug 9 the EB CZ arrived delivering a Viewliner II to Denver Union Station. We departed and the Baggage car remained on the far siding. We had no idea what this was all about but again we saw these cars on various Amtrak trains at that time.


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## keelhauled (Sep 22, 2015)

57 baggage cars have been delivered. 0 bag-dorms. I believe they are in service on all Eastern trains and the Empire Builder.


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## Acela150 (Sep 23, 2015)

dlagrua said:


> Anyone know how many Viewliner II Baggage cars and Baggage dorms have been deployed to date? On our last couple of trips we have only seen many Viewliner II Baggage cars and no Baggage dorms. When we left denver on Aug 9 the EB CZ arrived delivering a Viewliner II to Denver Union Station. We departed and the Baggage car remained on the far siding. We had no idea what this was all about but again we saw these cars on various Amtrak trains at that time.


You would and will know when the m

Bag dorms are released.

Delivered a VL II for training most likely.


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## neroden (Sep 24, 2015)

There's actually something slightly odd going on. There are enough Viewliner baggage cars delivered (57) to support all the trains with baggage cars (required: 51 if I'm not mistaken) plus spares. The Sunset, Chief, Zephyr, and Starlight are still using Heritage baggage cars, which is *18*. That seems really high given the number of Viewliner baggage cars available.

Maybe there's something else going on: not all the crews successfully trained on the new cars yet, or a very large number of cars out of service for mods at any given time, or something.


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## PVD (Sep 24, 2015)

I think a few of them (heritage bags) are used on trains w/o baggage service in the Midwest to bring some short consists up to minimum length required by one of the host railroads. CN comes to mind, but I might have that wrong. The number of bags in use can exceed the number of bags required for baggage service. The real number is how many are released for service, not delivered, since a bunch are still being used for training, and not all have been released from Hialeah.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 24, 2015)

R30A should have the numbers. BTW, I believe you can add 1762, 1731 and 1232 your existing count, R30a.

Additionally, not all delivered bags have been accepted for service at this time and mods are still underway on some of the accepted bags.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 24, 2015)

keelhauled said:


> 57 baggage cars have been delivered. 0 bag-dorms. I believe they are in service on all Eastern trains and the Empire Builder.


I believe they're also in service on the Capitol Ltd. At least I see one on the Superliner trainset setting in the Ivy City yard every morning on the way to work.


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## PaulM (Sep 24, 2015)

HeritageBags said:


> Baggage car 1234 is enroute to Beech Grove via the Capitol Limited right now.


I saw a derelict on the back of what I presume was the CL as I was boarding the south bound Illinois Zephyr in Chicago yesterday. But how would that get it to Beach Grove?


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## R30A (Sep 24, 2015)

As of now, I have active:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159-1164, 1204, 1206, 1237, 1241, 1247-1248

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster)

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230-1231

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709, 1754, (1760)

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1705, 1708, 1710-1711, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1701, 1730, 1733, (1735), 1738, 1756-1757

Cars in parentheses are those with reported future retirement dates having passed, without any report of an actual retirement. 
Sources remain the same, with the addition of ThirdRail7's contributions.
I may have missed a few here, Shout out if you see an error!


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## neroden (Sep 25, 2015)

Wow. That's 39 still in service. I guess some of them are padding out the consists running on CN.


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## ronkstevens (Sep 29, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> > Surprised that Budd bags would be put out to pasture before the rattletrap coach conversions, but what do I know. (See username.)
> ...


The way that they are chopping up the AEM-7's, I doubt it. Probably check them out and see if there are any worth selling and scrap the rest as soon as they can.


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## west point (Sep 29, 2015)

Some Heritage bags may be kept in CHI for the CN requirement of a certain number of axels on Amtrak trains on its tracks.


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## edjbox (Nov 1, 2015)

Looks like 3 heritage baggage cars are in Wilmington, based from information and pictures from the nec fb group


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 1, 2015)

edjbox said:


> Looks like 3 heritage baggage cars are in Wilmington, based from information and pictures from the nec fb group


They would be the cars listed below:



Thirdrail7 said:


> R30A should have the numbers. BTW, I believe you can add 1762, 1731 and 1232 your existing count, R30a.
> 
> Additionally, not all delivered bags have been accepted for service at this time and mods are still underway on some of the accepted bags.


They have found new life as training equipment. A lot of the heritage bags are being used as axle count cars. I continue to hope they will keep a few scattered along the NEC repair points for use as rider cars to expedite engine movements. This was done years ago. Keep them until the wheels run off.

BTW, R30A, the 1709 and 1735 remain active but you can scratch the 1160,1162,1163,1204,1711 and the 1754 from your list. the 1248 has its own issue but I doubt you'll see it again.


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## edjbox (Nov 1, 2015)

What are axle count cars?


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 2, 2015)

edjbox said:


> What are axle count cars?


This small thread should help.


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## neroden (Nov 2, 2015)

Updating R30A's list with ThirdRail's information

As of now, I have active:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159, 1161, 1164, 1206, 1237, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:

1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster)

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1230, 1231, 1232

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1709, 1754, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1702-1703, 1705, 1708, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761, 1762

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1751-1752-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1701, 1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1756-1757

so... 37 or 38 cars.


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## R30A (Nov 2, 2015)

I think you need to delete 1709 from the 1953 ATSF Budd 48 seat conversion line.


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## neroden (Nov 2, 2015)

Why yes, yes I do.

I wonder how long these cars will last in their new service as "axle count cars". I'm honestly surprised the conversions are even functioning at all, since apparently baggage load damaged most of their suspensions.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 8, 2016)

This looks better and reflects what is still in revenue service.



neroden said:


> Updating R30A's list with ThirdRail's information
> 
> As of now, I have active:
> 
> ...


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## railiner (Feb 9, 2016)

What about other (non-baggage) cars still running? Any heritage diner's or coaches?


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## neroden (Feb 9, 2016)

I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".

Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:

4 or 5 Pacific Parlour Cars

1 Great Dome

Metroliner cab cars

some of the "Company Service" cars (I don't know the histories on most of these)

North Carolina owned cars

Most of these didn't go through the Heritage rebuild program specifically so don't technically qualify as Heritage cars, but you were probably curious anyway.

PS. I believe among the Company Service cars, 10020, 10021, 9800, and 10501 are former Heritage cars. 10001 through 10004 are not. I have no idea about 10005, 10400, 10404, and 10405.

And I forgot the Anniversary Train, which has one Heritage ex-sleeper and three Heritage ex-baggage cars.

Oh -- if you haven't looked at On Track On Line's Amtrak Roster, it's my main source of information here.


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## jis (Feb 9, 2016)

As one of the moderators of the OTOL Forum I should point out that for those interested, the On Track On Line rosters can be found at http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml


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## railiner (Feb 9, 2016)

neroden said:


> I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".
> 
> Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:
> 
> ...





jis said:


> As one of the moderators of the OTOL Forum I should point out that for those interested, the On Track On Line rosters can be found at http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml


Wow....what a great resource guys....thanks for posting!

So if I read it correctly, the only pre-Metroliner single level coaches still in use are those owned by North Carolina? I believe the ex-KCS cars are considered the last new standard coaches built for any railroad....


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 9, 2016)

They are the last single level coaches built I believe. And I think but don't quote me they might have some ex Union Pacific cars. They also own an observation car or used to but haven't operated in Raleigh yard


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## R30A (Feb 10, 2016)

neroden said:


> I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".
> 
> Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:
> 
> ...


10020,10021, and 10405 are former UP 10-6 Pacific series sleepers, which ended up as Crew Dorms. Most heritage cars had ADA rebuilds. These did not. 9800 and 10005 are both former Metroliners(I suppose you could go either way as to whether they are "Heritage"- Although they did not go through the 1970s-1980s HEP rebuild program). 10501 and 10400 are former Army Hospital cars, like the NCDOT combines, and 10404 is a former baggage car, Probably ATSF(but I have not looked it up).



railiner said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".
> ...





Seaboard92 said:


> They are the last single level coaches built I believe. And I think but don't quote me they might have some ex Union Pacific cars. They also own an observation car or used to but haven't operated in Raleigh yard


Yes!

The NCDOT fleet consists of three groups:

The 1965 KCS Pullman fleet which never was Amtrak.

The 1960/1964 UP St. Louis fleet which was Amtrak.

The ~1953 Army St. Louis fleet some of which was Amtrak.

Each fleet was rebuilt from a variety of different configurations, although they were all the same when built, and are largely the same today.


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## railiner (Feb 13, 2016)

I am looking at a photo of one of those KCS car interior's when new....do they still have those 'mosaic' tile floors in them? (Kind of doubt that  ).....


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## R30A (Feb 13, 2016)

I'll be on one tomorrow, and will check it out! 

That said, I do know that they have been heavily rebuilt many times in the last 51 years.


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## jis (Feb 13, 2016)

Of the Heritage Diners I do like the Timoinsa rebuilds a lot. The others are in various levels of sad shape.


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## railiner (Feb 13, 2016)

Not surprised....very few railcars look as they did that long ago. Some notable exceptions are the original PATCO Lindenwold cars with their open operator's cabs when I rode them in 2014, but I believe they have since been rebuilt...

and the NY MTA R-32 subway cars are only slightly modified, aesthetically speaking....

Those KCS cars in the photo I have looked more like commuter cars than long-haul inside, except for their reclining seats....


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 14, 2016)

It really depends on the car seat wise. There are some 52 or 56 seaters and some that are around 70 if I remember correct. Longs tend to get the 52 seat cars. Shorts are in the other


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## R30A (Feb 17, 2016)

The KCS cars have 66 seats, while the UP cars have 56. Both are similar in decoration, although the lighting for the UP cars has been modified, while the KCS cars retain 1950s style commuter lighting (reminded me of the old LIRR diesel fleet/Metro North ACMUs). Flooring in both types is mostly green carpet. The seat frames are of the kind recently installed in Superliners. Both consists last weekend were 4 cars.
Engine- Cafe/Bag- 66 seat coach- 56 seat coach- 56 seat coach


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## neroden (Feb 20, 2016)

OK, any updates to this list?

Former baggage cars believed to be in service, but used only to "make up the axle count":
1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751-1752-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1757

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):

1762, 1232

-----------
Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:
8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:
8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:
8551 -- CB&Q 194 "Silver Diner" -- built Budd 1948, "grill" conversion 1987, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8504 -- CB&Q 195 "Silver Restaurant"-- appears to be sister car to 8551 (it's an educated guess that this is the build date), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1948/1949 Southern Budd:
8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948
8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949
8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

1950 CB&Q Budd:
8502 -- "Silver Cuisine" CB&Q 198 -- built Budd 1950

1950 Southern Pacific Budd:
8528 -- Southern Pacific 10213 -- built Budd 1950
8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s
8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:
8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:
8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:
8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s
8552 -- Northern Pacific 461 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----
So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.
The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?
The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.

Anyway, any updates on which cars have been retired?


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 21, 2016)

neroden said:


> Anyway, any updates on which cars have been retired?


The 8528 is finished as a whole car. Additionally, the 1762 and 1232 bags which are not on your list are still active. They found new lives as training cars.


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## neroden (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks, updated.

If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 9, 2016)

1231 and 1752 are no longer in revenue service, but will remain active. They have new roles.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 10, 2016)

neroden said:


> OK, any updates to this list?
> 
> 8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s


Another one bites the dust. I expect another dining car retirement prior to the summer.



neroden said:


> Thanks, updated.
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???


They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.


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## neroden (Apr 10, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.


OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 10, 2016)

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.
> ...


A coupler is a coupler, and an air hose is an air hose. These parts haven't changed much in about a century.


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## neroden (Apr 10, 2016)

Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.

Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:

1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1709, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1751

1752 (now "training car")

1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1757

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):

1762, 1232, 1231

-----------

Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:

8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:

8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:

8551 -- CB&Q 194 "Silver Diner" -- built Budd 1948, "grill" conversion 1987, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8504 -- CB&Q 195 "Silver Restaurant"-- appears to be sister car to 8551 (it's an educated guess that this is the build date), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1948/1949 Southern Budd:

8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948

8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949

8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

1950 CB&Q Budd:

8502 -- "Silver Cuisine" CB&Q 198 -- built Budd 1950

1950 Southern Pacific Budd:

8528 -- Southern Pacific 10213 -- built Budd 1950

8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s

8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:

8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:

8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:

8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

8552 -- Northern Pacific 461 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----

So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.

The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?

The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.


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## neroden (Apr 10, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


Aha. That makes sense.  Even if these did originally have different parts -- and they might have -- they would have been retrofitted for compatibility at some point anyway.
(Worth noting: although the Janney coupler is from the 19th century, one of the dining cars actually predates the type H tightlock coupler which was only standardized in 1947. I haven't found detail on the history of air hose connectors, but I strongly suspect they've been changed too -- but the 1950s hoses would have died of rubber fatigue and been replaced in the meantime anyway.)


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 10, 2016)

neroden said:


> Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.
> 
> Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:
> 
> ...


The list still accurate. The 1260 is indeed active, being used as a rider car as recently as Friday. The 1248, still lingers in limbo. It hasn't been officially retired, but it hasn't been used in years.



neroden said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > neroden said:
> ...


Additionally, the electrical components in terms of HEP are pretty much the same. Changing a 480 cable on this and cutting out the actual trucks are quite similar to a Horizon coach.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 9, 2016)

This looks a lot better to me:



neroden said:


> Updated list. Probably still inaccurate. I'm still wondering about #1260.
> 
> Former baggage cars believed to be in passenger service:
> 1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
> ...



As mentioned in the Where are all the dining cars going? thread, it is unlikely you will see the 8502, 8504, 8551,8552 or the 8558 in revenue service again. T


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## gmo1515 (Jul 10, 2016)

neroden said:


> 1948/1949 Southern Budd:
> 
> 8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948
> 
> ...


I wonder if one of these cars might be a good grab for someone like TVRM? Strip the striping off, put some Southern lettering back on it and you're in business (of course I know its not that simple, but hey...).

-Jason


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## neroden (Jul 23, 2016)

gmo1515 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > 1948/1949 Southern Budd:
> ...


Given their decrepit state, it would be wisest for a museum to buy all three and attempt to build one good car out of the combination!


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## KnightRail (Aug 3, 2016)

The list with some strikes



> 1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
> 
> 1159
> 
> ...


Reclassified for Maintenance of Way:1231, 1237, 1705


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Nov 10, 2016)

Let's make some updates to this list, shall we?



KnightRail said:


> The list with some strikes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is current reflection of what is in revenue service:



> 1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
> 1159
> 1248**
> 
> ...





> 1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
> 1730
> 1731*
> 
> ...


----------



## Seaboard92 (Nov 10, 2016)

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Nov 10, 2016)

Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 10, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.


Without having seen the insides of one, I do believe you are correct. Airlines use the interiors of various planes (often constructed as part of a "brick and mortar" classroom) in their fleets to train FAs and others on, as that presents a more accurate setting, especially in dimensions, of the work environment. This is especially critical in safety training.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Nov 10, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Can I ask a dumb question. What are the training cars used for? I'm assuming a class room.
> ...


From this very thread:



neroden said:


> Thanks, updated.
> 
> *If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???*





Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, updated.
> ...








Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > CCC1007 said:
> ...


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Dec 16, 2016)

...and then there were 9. The 1750 is out of the running. I expect a few more to follow. Get your pictures while you can.


----------



## KnightRail (Dec 16, 2016)

Surprising given the current need of axle count cars


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Dec 16, 2016)

KnightRail said:


> Surprising given the current need of axle count cars



Indeed...you can disregard me previous message. I figured it out after staring at your post, seeing the alert about the "temporary reversion" and checking 316.

Thanks.


----------



## KnightRail (Feb 22, 2017)

Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761

Their number should actually be increasing as many arise from the deadlines needed to meet the increased axle count demand. The 1700s are not ready to ride off into the sunset just yet.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Feb 22, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761
> 
> Their number should actually be increasing as many arise from the deadlines needed to meet the increased axle count demand. The 1700s are not ready to ride off into the sunset just yet.


What a waste of the 10031. I can think of a few more uses for these bags, particularly when it comes to power moves. I guess someone decided it wasn't worth the costs.


----------



## rtabern (Feb 23, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> > Only about four bags remain...for now, 1750, 1751, 1753, & 1761
> ...


Is 10031 still running as an axle count car to Carbondale... closed to the public?

That is horrible! There has to be other cars available besides one of the oldest cars in your fleet and the best observation car. Who makes these decisions?? Then when they really need it and advertise it on a run its pulled for emergency wheel repairs or something.

If they need it for an axle count car then fine... atleast open it up for people to enjoy for crying out loud!

My support for Amtrak and its bone head moves continue to dwindle. 10 years ago I would use almost all my vacation time to ride trains. Maybe did 15-20 nights a year in a sleeper. This year... 2.


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## ScouseAndy (Feb 23, 2017)

Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc


----------



## jis (Feb 23, 2017)

ScouseAndy said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc


Because CN apparently cannot get their signaling system to detect anything with less than their specified (large) number of axles.


----------



## PRR 60 (Feb 23, 2017)

jis said:


> ScouseAndy said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc
> ...


With CN, the (alleged) issue is train detection for grade crossing protection. There is also a minimum 30-axle requirement imposed by the Union Pacific on the route of the River Runner in Missouri that was triggered by an Amtrak train dropping of the dispatch board back in December. That one is for general CTC signaling.

For the uninformed (not jis  ), most railroad signaling is based on an electric circuit applied to the two rails. When a train occupies a section of track, the metal wheels and axles short (shunt) the circuit between the two tracks, and the signal and control system interprets that as a train occupying that section of track.

A problem can develop if the rails get a little rusty. The voltage applied to the rails is low (typically about 9 Volts), so even a light coating of rust can create an insulation layer that prevents the wheels from shunting the circuit. The more axles a train has, the greater the likelihood that the lead axles will clean the rails of rust, the following axles will then shunt the circuit, and the signal or crossing protection will "see" the train. Why here and not there? Why CN, only a section of the UP, and no where elsewhere? Who knows.

The 30 axle minimum is interesting. Almost all Amtrak equipment has four axles. Four does not divide evenly into 30. That means that Amtrak must run at least one locomotive and seven cars (32 axles) to meet the 30-axle minimum. However, one Amtrak car has six axles - the old dome car. If that car is available, then they only need the locomotive and six cars. Thus, the dome occasionally shows up solely to meet the minimum axle count.


----------



## jis (Feb 23, 2017)

Maybe Amtrak should acquire a few of those special load move 10 axle cars, just to meet the axle count. There are interesting possibilities to equip those cars with a semi-open observation deck for use in the summer and such too. Says he with a smirk and dripping sarcasm


----------



## PRR 60 (Feb 23, 2017)

Replace the transformer with a block of concrete, and we're ready to rumble. Twenty axles in one shot. I bet cranking that bad boy up to 79 mph would be interesting. 




By terry cantrell - originally posted to Flickr as CPOX820, CC BY-SA 2.0


----------



## Seaboard92 (Feb 23, 2017)

The other option that could work but I doubt the owners would go along with it. Tack private cars on for axle count in exchange for free parking for the month. You might get some takers.

And the reason they don't let passengers into the dome when it's an axle count car is actually good business. With only one car you can't guarantee it'll be on the train every day. And you don't want people anticipating an amenity that you can't run on every train or every departure of a certain number. People don't like equipment substitutions especially if it is an amenity they were planing on. But then again most passengers don't care about domes they just want to go to their destination safely, and on time. The railfans do but they make up such a small part of the market I wouldn't worry about them. Amtrak wouldn't miss railfans disappearing as they make up such a minority of passengers.


----------



## A Voice (Feb 23, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> The other option that could work but I doubt the owners would go along with it. Tack private cars on for axle count in exchange for free parking for the month. You might get some takers.
> 
> And the reason they don't let passengers into the dome when it's an axle count car is actually good business. With only one car you can't guarantee it'll be on the train every day. And you don't want people anticipating an amenity that you can't run on every train or every departure of a certain number. People don't like equipment substitutions especially if it is an amenity they were planing on. But then again most passengers don't care about domes they just want to go to their destination safely, and on time. The railfans do but they make up such a small part of the market I wouldn't worry about them. Amtrak wouldn't miss railfans disappearing as they make up such a minority of passengers.


I'm not sure I agree with the common refrain here on the forums that most passengers don't care much for domes. The 'modern' interpretation of the Superliner sightseer Lounge certainly seems to be popular with a varied clientele (and corresponding complaints the Amfleet II lounges don't measure up). It is hardly just (or even primarily) railfans who enjoy watching the countryside.

Regardless, whenever Amtrak schedules the dome on other trains, and thus is expected by passengers, they have no more backup than they would now. It is not good business to leave it closed off - it is a waste. The 'fine print' should always note anyway that specific amenities (the dome) are not guaranteed and equipment substitutions may be made without notice, that's common. I can recall several Southern Railway excursions where I was surprised to find a diesel hauling the train instead of the advertised steam locomotive. Life, and the trip, went on.

The Heritage baggage cars can better fill the role of axle-count cars, but it shouldn't even be necessary. Rusted track isn't exactly a new phenomenon, and other roads seem to cope without such restrictions. Gee, how did they ever manage in the days of the Rail-Diesel Car (RDC)?


----------



## Agent (Feb 23, 2017)

This video uploaded three days ago by YouTube user Female Railfan shows _Ocean View_ and two Viewliner II baggage cars being used as axle cars in Kankakee, Illinois.


----------



## rtabern (Feb 23, 2017)

Does anyone know why Amtrak is doing this? As in, running their one and only Great Dome Car as an empty axle-count car back and forth from Chicago to Carbondale for the past couple of weeks now? (610+ miles round-trip per day) I find this aggravating to a degree because I have tried to ride the car several times on advertised runs when it was supposed to be open to the public -- just to have the car pulled for emergency maintenance repairs (bad wheels, axles, etc.) Unless someone can come up with a good explanation -- you think you'd want to limit the mileage and the wear/tear on such a special car. Especially since replacement parts for it are non-standard and would cost more than replacement parts for the baggage cars, coaches, or whatever else they could run instead.

I don't know a lot about mechanics and classic vehicles -- but I think if you're going to take a long road trip somewhere and put a lot of wear and tear or something (either a car or a train car!) you are probably going to take your new Camry vs. your classic '57 Chevy... right? Same thing here.

At the very least -- open the frigin' car for passengers. If it's going to cost the conductors more to work an extra car -- then close off one of the horizon coaches and open the dome up for people to enjoy as regular seating.

Just seeing if anyone has a good explanation for this what appears to be a very bone-headed waste of an awesome heritage car.



Agent said:


> This video uploaded three days ago by YouTube user Female Railfan shows _Ocean View_ and two Viewliner II baggage cars being used as axle cars in Kankakee, Illinois.


----------



## railiner (Feb 23, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> However, one Amtrak car had six axles - the old dome car.


Too bad Amtrak didn't keep the old Hi-Level Diner's.....those cars also had six axle's


----------



## edjbox (Feb 23, 2017)

I wish those viewliners can be used for revenue baggage service along that route. It's a good way to get extra $ for amtrak and they could use the extra cash.


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## KnightRail (Feb 23, 2017)

It's very simple why the car is not "open". These are state supported routes. That means they are operated under a contractual agreement with defined terms, requirements, equipment etc. If the dome were to be "opened", it's going to require an amended agreement. Totally possible as has happened before and how the Adirondack and Downeaster come to agreements to pay to have the car on their routes. How can those states be expected to pay to host dome service and then it be offered here with no agreement. Talk to the states that support the routes you want the dome on and "open". They are the ones who have to make it happen. From a practacle standpoint, it's already been explained why it makes sense to use the dome for axle count. It has two extra axles compared to everything else. To meet 30, that's one car less required.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Feb 23, 2017)

If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.

Win-win!


----------



## MikefromCrete (Feb 24, 2017)

jis said:


> ScouseAndy said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc
> ...


Strange how every other U.S. railroad manages to operates its signaling without such a requirement. Typical CN arrogance.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Feb 24, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.
> 
> Win-win!


Now that's a winning solution. I'm not a hundred percent positive how to MU a unit. But if you could MU it to run push pull you can save time turning the train. So in reality three wins


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Feb 24, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.
> ...


They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.


----------



## west point (Feb 24, 2017)

> They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.



Believe ACs will DCs will not. When converting DC to AC control went from what was called P to the standard 8 position throttle..


----------



## rtabern (Feb 24, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> It's very simple why the car is not "open". These are state supported routes. That means they are operated under a contractual agreement with defined terms, requirements, equipment etc. If the dome were to be "opened", it's going to require an amended agreement. Totally possible as has happened before and how the Adirondack and Downeaster come to agreements to pay to have the car on their routes. How can those states be expected to pay to host dome service and then it be offered here with no agreement. Talk to the states that support the routes you want the dome on and "open". They are the ones who have to make it happen. From a practacle standpoint, it's already been explained why it makes sense to use the dome for axle count. It has two extra axles compared to everything else. To meet 30, that's one car less required.


Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?

Now the other point you brought up might be the real answer... it wouldn't surprise me at all that Amtrak would put on the dome car -- but then refuse to open it up to the public (essentially holding it hostage) unless the State of Illinois paid them X-amount of money. That is honestly really sad!! Amtrak isn't going to be out anymore money if people are enjoying the dome car or not. If you are going to run the dang thing -- then just let people enjoy it, huh? Why not? What does it hurt? This gets back in it being a real bone-headed move on Amtrak. They would rather lock people out of the dome car than just open it up and lets folks enjoy!

Hey, here is an idea -- the Parlour Cars also have an extra axle and aren't used in the winter on the Coast Starlight anymore. Let's bring them to Chicago and run the hell out of them, but lock everyone out, in January and February between Chicago and Carbondale -- so that they crap out a lot the rest of the year.


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2017)

Sorry, I don't believe the Pacific Parlor Cars, which were the Hi-Level Lounge cars, have six axles...only the diners, which were much heavier....


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## jis (Feb 24, 2017)

Right. The Pacific Parlour Cars are four axle cars. I have no idea where _rtabern _got the idea that they are six axle.

Have a look at this in case you remain unconvinced. Get a copy and enlarge it enough to see for sure.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Sonoma_Valley_PPC.jpg/1920px-Sonoma_Valley_PPC.jpg


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## KnightRail (Feb 24, 2017)

rtabern said:


> Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?


What do Amfleet, Horizon, & Superliner coaches all have in common that allow them to be used interchangeably in this example? They are all revenue coach cars where seats can be sold. If there are a fixed number of cars that are "open" and a fixed number that are "closed"/axle count, closing off a coach and opening the dome you have just significantly reduced the number of tickets you can sell. Why not just open every car on the train and let people go everywhere? Well there are labor agreements that dictate crew size based on the number of open cars. Increase crew, increase costs. Why not sell tickets in the dome so it's a revenue car? Well for one it's not ADA accessible...


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 24, 2017)

west point said:


> > They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.
> 
> 
> Believe ACs will DCs will not. When converting DC to AC control went from what was called P to the standard 8 position throttle..



You can believe what you wish. However, that does not make it any closer to reality. Shall I tell my Drew Barrymore story?



KnightRail said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?
> ...



To expand on KnightRail's response, contracts vary. While you mention cars being interchangeable, it really does depend on the contract. There are certain contracts that specify the EXACT equipment that can be used and there can be repercussions for substitutions. Additionally, certain services have specific pools of equipment instead specific consists.

The thing about axle count services is you fail to consider the reimbursement costs under PRIIA. If a state contracts for a certain amount of seats but the host requires a certain amount of axles, that can be an issue. How are the costs divided? That is why you often see non revenue cars as axle count riders. As Knight Rail mentions, if you start opening non-revenue cars (like the dome) which will result in additional crew members, that state must be informed. If they do not approve, Amtrak would eat the costs if they decided to do so on their own.

This isn't a matter of holding someone hostage. There are real considerations involved.


----------



## neroden (Feb 25, 2017)

We're back to "Class Is undermaintain their railroads". The *correct* solution is for the Class Is to keep their signal system in good working order by keeping the rails shiny. This is actually what A-Train in Denton did faced with the same problem, making sure a train runs through polishing the rails regularly.

Theoretically the FRA could go after CN and UP for failure to keep their signal system in good working order, as failing to do so is a violation of FRA rules. But they won't.


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## KnightRail (May 27, 2017)

Here is what is still rolling:



> Axle count bags:
> 
> 1159
> 
> ...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 27, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Here is what is still rolling:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?


----------



## KnightRail (May 27, 2017)

Yes all 11 of those heritage diners are still very much active. Ten out of the eleven have all seen revenue service and served meals within the past two weeks, and the eleventh only hadn't because of some rogue trees on the Crescent earlier this month. Aside from scheduled maintenance there are so many more appliances and fixtures than can break in a diner compared to a coach that there needs to be a high protect count.


----------



## A Voice (May 27, 2017)

Are all remaining baggage cars now just in axle count service? Pending delivery of the baggage-dorms, I would have expected some to still be needed in actual baggage service.


----------



## AmtrakLKL (May 28, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?


"Unreliable" is such a harsh word. More like "frequently receives extra attention."  I've seen cars make a single, four-day round-trip and be bad ordered on return.


----------



## KnightRail (May 28, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Are all remaining baggage cars now just in axle count service? Pending delivery of the baggage-dorms, I would have expected some to still be needed in actual baggage service.


Yes all remaining active heritage bags are generally exclusively in axle count service. They can be used as in service baggage when needed and one made a trip on the zephyr recently. There are even a few 61000 series bags used to fulfill axle count needs.


----------



## Anderson (May 28, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> > Here is what is still rolling:
> ...


Remember, you need 11 "live" diners (4 Meteor, 4 Crescent, 3 LSL). You then need at least one more as a maintenance spare and another as a protect in NYP. The other two are probably in CHI and MIA.

(Bear in mind that you've got four "spare/protect" cars covering a base of 11, but if you were running 22 diners on the same combo of routes you'd probably only need one added spare. Such is the nature of fleet scaling efficiency that you can go from 80% of your fleet in service to around 88-90% since protect equipment needs rise on a scale that is much closer to logarithmic than linear...and while your maintenance cycle is pretty linear, unless you're going to short your protect set you're always going to need at least one car in there.)

Edit: Wait, wouldn't 11 active Heritage diners mean there were 13 in service? There's only Indianapolis and Annapolis in use at the moment IIRC (the "diner lite" doesn't count IMHO...it's a "pure" protect car...and 13 would mean 11 "live", a protect in NYP, and one car expected to be down for maintenance at any given time).


----------



## KnightRail (May 28, 2017)

Anderson said:


> Edit: Wait, wouldn't 11 active Heritage diners mean there were 13 in service? There's only Indianapolis and Annapolis in use at the moment IIRC (the "diner lite" doesn't count IMHO...it's a "pure" protect car...and 13 would mean 11 "live", a protect in NYP, and one car expected to be down for maintenance at any given time).


11 Heritage

1 Viewliner I(8400/Indianapolis)

3 Viewliner II*

-----

15 total diners active

*Annapolis since 12/5/2016, Augusta since 5/21/2017, Atlanta since 5/28/2017


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## Anderson (May 28, 2017)

Ah...I'd heard that Augusta had been delivered but didn't know if it was in service. I did _not_ know about Atlanta, but that's probably because today was the first day...;-)

My guess is that Amtrak keeps the 11 remaining Heritage diners "active" thru the end of the fiscal year, at least, just in case some problem erupts with the Viewliner IIs. In this case it isn't a question of "spares" as much as it is not wanting to have an Acela-style problem break out and suddenly having _nothing_ in use.

Geez...since they've been leaning towards using these on the Meteor lately, that means there's a passing chance my last meal in a Heritage diner might've happened about two weeks ago (and it would have been the new quesadilla at lunch coming into Orlando, following a creole egg bowl).


----------



## Thirdrail7 (May 29, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?





Anderson said:


> Remember, you need 11 "live" diners (4 Meteor, 4 Crescent, 3 LSL). You then need at least one more as a maintenance spare and another as a protect in NYP. The other two are probably in CHI and MIA.
> 
> (Bear in mind that you've got four "spare/protect" cars covering a base of 11, but if you were running 22 diners on the same combo of routes you'd probably only need one added spare. Such is the nature of fleet scaling efficiency that you can go from 80% of your fleet in service to around 88-90% since protect equipment needs rise on a scale that is much closer to logarithmic than linear...and while your maintenance cycle is pretty linear, unless you're going to short your protect set you're always going to need at least one car in there.)
> 
> Edit: Wait, wouldn't 11 active Heritage diners mean there were 13 in service? There's only Indianapolis and Annapolis in use at the moment IIRC (the "diner lite" doesn't count IMHO...it's a "pure" protect car...and 13 would mean 11 "live", a protect in NYP, and one car expected to be down for maintenance at any given time).


If either of you recall, the Lake Shore hasn't carried a full dining car in almost a year. As such, you need 8 for daily service with a 11 heritage diners in service. Up until recently, there were two viewliner cars available. Now, there are four.

As for protection, it is unlikely some of them will stick around for long.


----------



## railiner (May 29, 2017)

If they can still be used , they should keep them around for extra protection. If nothing else, they could serve as "axle count cars"...


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 11, 2017)

Not unlike the AEM-7s, a bunch of the retired 1700 series Heritage Bags are bored and will head to Pueblo for their new gig.

The Chief (13) should be quite photogenic.


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## KnightRail (Jul 11, 2017)

That would explain the quadruple output on Sunday.


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## PerRock (Jul 11, 2017)

A note on the Axle counts, the Wolverine has also been having an axle-count baggage car put onto it lately. However they've been using one of the Viewliners rather than a heritage car.

peter


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 11, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> That would explain the quadruple output on Sunday.


And I just saw a video of them heading to Chicago on FB.


----------



## neroden (Jul 11, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Here is what is still rolling:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this.
I will note that most of these surviving dining cars are of NP or CB&Q origin (both of whom ordered very similar cars). Most have the Temoinsa Rebuild.

The exceptions are:

-- 8509, Northern Pacific without a rebuild. Some museum might want this one.

-- 8512, NY Central from 1948 and without a rebuild -- a truly exhausted car. A museum would be very likely to want it, though the private car market or tourist railroads might snap it up. It seems startlingly close to original condition so I hope an operating museum gets it.

-- 8527, Southern Pacific (but rebuilt)

-- 8530, Pennsy origin, possibly the car with the largest number of rebuildings ever to run on Amtrak: originally not a diner at all! Probably the least historic value of any car unless some way could be found to illustrate the process of conversion!

-- 8550, BN origin, converted to a "griddle diner"

-- 8553, NY Central from 1948 (but rebuilt)

I am vaguely astounded that the *1948* cars are outlasting many of the cars from the 1950s. They are sixty-nine years old.

I hope at least one car with a Temoinsa interior goes to a railroad museum. It's of historic value at this point.


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## A Voice (Jul 11, 2017)

Much as CAF needs to make deliveries at better than a glacial pace (and the Heritage diners days are numbered regardless), there is a part of me that would like to see one of those 1948 cars survive just six more months - seventy years of service.


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## KnightRail (Jul 12, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Not unlike the AEM-7s, a bunch of the retired 1700 series Heritage Bags are bored and will head to Pueblo for their new gig.
> 
> The Chief (13) should be quite photogenic.


3 porpoises

2 meatballs

6 old bags

Get out there people!


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## railiner (Jul 12, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Much as CAF needs to make deliveries at better than a glacial pace (and the Heritage diners days are numbered regardless), there is a part of me that would like to see one of those 1948 cars survive just six more months - seventy years of service.


Me too...like to see one of those CZ cars go to VIA Rail to be restored to serve on the Canadian...


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 13, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Not unlike the AEM-7s, a bunch of the retired 1700 series Heritage Bags are bored and will head to Pueblo for their new gig.
> ...



Please do! Pictures or videos on bridges are greatly appreciated!


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 22, 2017)

It is time for an update:

1738, 1760 and 1761 are still on patrol as axle count cars. The 1753 is down but not out and may see life again.

As for dining cars, the 8505, 8507,8510,8530,8531, 8550 and 8553 are still hanging on, probably enjoying a break while the LDSL fleet expands their numbers.

Enjoy them if you happen to see them.


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 22, 2017)

Could you move a little faster said the swallow to the fly; there is a porpoise close behind me and he is troddimg on my tail.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 6, 2018)

Since their dates are approaching, I suspect we've seen the last of the 8505, 8507 and 8550. A few more will likely drop off by March. We're getting down to the last heritage diners.


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2018)

Hope these go to suitable museums. 8512 seems to have the most historic value IMHO.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 7, 2018)

If nothing else, I wish they would keep them as axle count or emergency training cars. Run them until the wheels are the only thing left!

Plus, let's be honest. Nothing that has appeared in the last 50 years will EVER give you the solid, comfortable ride of a heritage car.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 7, 2018)

I'll be honest nothing will ever kill a Budd built car. I have a feeling some are going to get bought by our friends in the Great White North according to some friends of mine who were wondering why they buy second hand equipment.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 7, 2018)

You must be joking. Hard to kill, yes. But Amtrak's old diners? Killed.


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## AmtrakLKL (Jan 14, 2018)

8550 can soon be struck from the active list. Left Hialeah yesterday. Currently on 51 headed for the Grove by way of Chicago.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 24, 2018)

With the 8507 and the 8531 heading to Beech Grove, pickings are getting slim.

Here's what seems to be left:

Axle Count Bags:

1159
1709
1738
1753
1760
1761

Axle Count Diners:

8505
8530
8531

In Service Diner:

8510


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## IndyLions (Mar 26, 2018)

Which one was on the back end of the Cardinal arriving in Indy this morning? I saw a Heritage Diner but didn’t catch the number.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 26, 2018)

IndyLions said:


> Which one was on the back end of the Cardinal arriving in Indy this morning? I saw a Heritage Diner but didn’t catch the number.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


It was 8507 former Northern Pacific Budd built dining car No. 463 for the North Coast Limited (Chicago-Seattle/Portland) assembled in 1957. Also one of the cars with a complete Termossia rebuild. Likely going to the deadline at Beech Grove awaiting a buyer either for scrap, pv, tourist railroad, or the great white north.


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## Northeastern292 (Mar 29, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> IndyLions said:
> 
> 
> > Which one was on the back end of the Cardinal arriving in Indy this morning? I saw a Heritage Diner but didn’t catch the number.
> ...


Had lunch and dinner in 8507 on the Fourth of July last year on the Crescent. I'm going to shed a tear with the retirement of the old diners.
Outside of axle count cars, the last run of a Heritage diner will mark the end of an era.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## cpotisch (Mar 29, 2018)

Northeastern292 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > IndyLions said:
> ...


I was on #98 on Fourth of July last year and unfortunately ended up with a V-II diner. Had I been traveling one day earlier or later I would have gotten a Heritage diner, and I was pretty heartbroken about that. Yes, the old cars were kind of run down and were on their last legs, but they were beautiful and gave me a glimpse of the 'Golden Age of Rail' so long ago.

Goodbye Heritage Fleet, I will miss you.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 12, 2018)

8510 is headed for the Grove. No more heritage dining cars are available for dining.


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## CHvision (May 12, 2018)

According to the on track roster, the heritage diners still on the rails will be on the Midwest routes as "axle-count" cars

----

10031: Dome car will remain.


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## cpotisch (May 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> 8510 is headed for the Grove. No more heritage dining cars are available for dining.


RIP. Hopefully they'll do some nostalgia run in the future.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 16, 2018)

8510 was seen on 98(17) as it makes its way to the Grove. Additionally, the 8531 is not longer being used as an axle count car. The last diner is the 8530.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 16, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > 8510 is headed for the Grove. No more heritage dining cars are available for dining.
> ...


I fear they will sit quietly on their storage track until scrapped or hopefully sold to private operators.


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## Anderson (May 17, 2018)

I got a picture of 8510 today. I was on 97, 8510 was deadheading on 98.


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## DSS&A (May 18, 2018)

PVD said:


> I think a few of them (heritage bags) are used on trains w/o baggage service in the Midwest to bring some short consists up to minimum length required by one of the host railroads. CN comes to mind, but I might have that wrong. The number of bags in use can exceed the number of bags required for baggage service. The real number is how many are released for service, not delivered, since a bunch are still being used for training, and not all have been released from Hialeah.


I saw three heratage cars (two of them were diners) on the tail end of a late running northbound Saluki on May 1st at Homewood. The seven car train had Charger 4614 on the lead.


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## cpotisch (Jul 18, 2018)

So where are the diners now? And are they being scrapped anytime soon?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 18, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> So where are the diners now? And are they being scrapped anytime soon?


Sounds like they’re being used for axle count, so doubt they’re going to be scrapped anytime soon.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 18, 2018)

Most of them are stored. The 8505 and 8530 are in axle count service. Additionally, they've reinstated some of the previously stored baggage cars to serve as axle count cars. This frees up coaches.

The 1216, 1221, 1702, 1710, 1734,1735,1750,1751,1757 and 1758 are all back on the road.


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## Acela150 (Jul 18, 2018)

The "best part" of axle count cars is that CN refuses to fix their problems.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 19, 2018)

I've heard talk from my sources inside VIA they might be eyeing some cars. But then again I'm interested in acquiring a handful as well.

I have a friend starting a project that needs fourteen baggage cars, a diner, and a crew dorm.


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## Amtrak706 (Aug 24, 2018)

Sorry to bump this but I haven't found an answer anywhere else. If anyone knows, which car made the last revenue service run as a diner, when, and on which train?


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## cuppb001 (Jun 22, 2019)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I saw an AD on trains for Wisconsin Great Northern offering an Wine and Cheese train that is using one of the recently retired/sold Pacific Parlour cars. Glad to hear at least one is continuing to live out the rest of its life in revenue/tourist service. Probably will serve the best wine and cheese that car has ever seen.


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