# Boston - New York overnight ferry



## VTTrain (Jan 7, 2019)

I've always wondered if an overnight ferry would work between Boston and New York.  There are lots of tourists that want to see both cities.  Both cities have among the highest hotel rates in the country.  An overnight ferry would provide transportation and save on a night in a hotel.  Has anyone ever proposed such an idea in recent history? 

One problem is that the distance may be just a little bit too long to make this work.  An older cruise ship might make sense, but there is only a 130 foot clearance to get through the Cape Cod Canal.  

Historically, the trip involved a rail connection to Buzzard's Bay.  https://www.cruiselinehistory.com/the-night-boats-new-york-to-boston-the-fall-river-line/

It's frustrating to me that North America has so few ferries compared to other parts of the world.  I can understand from a geographical perspective, however.


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## cpotisch (Jan 7, 2019)

I honestly don't really see the appeal here. A bus, car, or train can get you there in well under half the time, and you wouldn't really "save on a night in a hotel", as that cost would fall on the ferry itself. In fact, depending on just how long a ferry would take, you may be able to arrive at your destination at around the same time instead by just catching an early morning train or bus the following day, instead of a ferry that night. I mean, let's say this ferry can maintain an average of 20 mph (which would be pretty high), and the distance from NYC to Boston is 250 miles. That's going to take at least 12 or 13 hours, so if this ferry were to depart at maybe 9:00 PM, you'd get in at 9:00 or 10:00 AM the next day. Meanwhile if you catch a 7:30 AM Acela the next morning, you can be in Boston by 11:00 AM, and have spent the night in your own bed, which is probably going to be a lot cheaper and more comfortable. So my take on this is that it's not a long enough trip to really count as a cruise, and not quick (or cheap) enough to effectively compete with a train, bus, or car.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 7, 2019)

And it would be of questionable value for sightseeing, with much of the trip taking place at night.

Another niche idea would be a sleeper train that runs BOS-NYP but that could be occupied until, say 7:00 a.m. at the destination. But the idea of having a train occupy a platform during the morning rush at BOS or NYP is probably DOA, not to mention finding the equipment, etc.


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## cpotisch (Jan 7, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> And it would be of questionable value for sightseeing, with much of the trip taking place at night.
> 
> Another niche idea would be a sleeper train that runs BOS-NYP but that could be occupied until, say 7:00 a.m. at the destination. But the idea of having a train occupy a platform during the morning rush at BOS or NYP is probably DOA, not to mention finding the equipment, etc.


You’d get _part of that_ if they ever add a sleeper or Bag-Dorm to the overnight Regionals. But even if they did have the equipment and space to run a BOS-NYP sleeper train, I just don’t think it would make sense to allow passengers to sleep in like that when the ride is only four or so hours. If it were an actual long distance train,  letting people stay onboard for a few extra hours wouldn’t make much of a difference, but not for a short distance ride.


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## VTTrain (Jan 7, 2019)

For the vast majority of the traveling public, a ferry would have a nicer accommodations than an Amtrak sleeper.   The sightseeing from a ferry entering either city in the morning hours would be more appealing than what you’d get from a train.

Perhaps I should not of said that a ferry would save the cost of a hotel room. A more accurate statement would be that a ferry word quite likely be cheaper than a hotel and transportation costs combined. It is a distinct possibility with the cost of an Acela ticket. Yes, you could take the bus for much cheaper but I would much rather take an overnight ferry than be stuck on an inter-city bus for several hours.   You’d also be dealing with rush-hour traffic. 

In any event, it does not sound like a viable idea or somebody would have tried it by now.


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## GBNorman (Jan 7, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> And it would be of questionable value for sightseeing, with much of the trip taking place at night.
> 
> Another niche idea would be a sleeper train that runs BOS-NYP but that could be occupied until, say 7:00 a.m. at the destination. But the idea of having a train occupy a platform during the morning rush at BOS or NYP is probably DOA, not to mention finding the equipment, etc.


That's a "been there done that". "Once upon a time (within the Amtrak era)", there was a pickup/setout NYP-WAS Sleeper. Handled on 66/7, Night Owl.  It was parked at either station from 10P to 8AM after of course it moved between the two.

Pre-Amtrak, this was quite customary for routes such as GCT-BOS, along with pickup/setout Sleepers on numerous routes. But Amtrak reasons "why have an Attendant there under pay when no revenue is generated? During "railroad days", to handle a "Pullman" at say Jackson, MS, Memphis. TN, Greenville, SC, and God knows wherever else, was just part of a Third Trick's yard assignment to "go down to the station and yank the Pullman off #5". Amtrak doesn't have that "utility".

So even when the V2snoozes are ever delivered, don't expect to see any pickup/setout lines.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 7, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> For the vast majority of the traveling public, a ferry would have a nicer accommodations than an Amtrak sleeper.   The sightseeing from a ferry entering either city in the morning hours would be more appealing than what you’d get from a train.
> 
> Perhaps I should not of said that a ferry would save the cost of a hotel room. A more accurate statement would be that a ferry word quite likely be cheaper than a hotel and transportation costs combined. It is a distinct possibility with the cost of an Acela ticket. Yes, you could take the bus for much cheaper but I would much rather take an overnight ferry than be stuck on an inter-city bus for several hours.   You’d also be dealing with rush-hour traffic.
> 
> In any event, it does not sound like a viable idea or somebody would have tried it by now.


It isn't a bad idea at all. The problem is there probably wouldn't be much "profitable" idea as you'd need a lot of riders to make the boat investment worthwhile. Additionally, there are  low fare bus operators along the route.

 Realistically, you have bike sharing and car sharing services to meet the ferry, so wouldn't necessarily need a car.  Additionally, if you could occupy the boat until, let say 8am, it would save hotel money. That was the appeal of the aforementioned Executive Sleeper. Maybe they could start serving breakfast around 5am for the early risers.

If we could just lure people out of their cars...........

I can't say anyone has suggested but I really like this idea.


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## VTTrain (Jan 7, 2019)

Perhaps it could be something seasonal with the ship transitioning south in the winter.


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## cirdan (Jan 8, 2019)

How about if the ferry was also a casino or something and thiu in addition to its transportation function, it could become an attraction in its own right.

This might require a shift from overnight to daytime operation, or at least a combination of evening and nightime, allowing passengers to lie in at destination

Possibly it could also capture some RoRo truck traffic, allowing drivers to by-pass congested roads while getting some sleep..

Even if none of these functions would generate enough income to keep the ship afloat, the combination/overlap  possibly would.


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## cpotisch (Jan 8, 2019)

cirdan said:


> How about if the ferry was also a casino or something and thiu in addition to its transportation function, it could become an attraction in its own right.


Gambling is illegal in New York, though, which would likely prohibit any kind of onboard casino...


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## fairviewroad (Jan 8, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Gambling is illegal in New York, though, which would likely prohibit any kind of onboard casino...


Not to mention the fact that you have existing gambling opportunities just to the north and south of NYC, easily accessible by land transport. Makes the idea of being captive on a boat for 13 hours a bit less appealing. Of course, cruises are a "thing" and this could work as a seasonal operation, but gambling or not, it would have to be about 99% cruise and 1% transportation, IMO.


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## PVD (Jan 8, 2019)

You can gamble aboard ship in international waters, the added time and cost to do that certainly would not help the practicality (or economics) in this case. Cruise ships head for "the limit" right away to get the casinos open, but Boston to NY out at sea instead of using LI Sound would likely never work. I've used the cross sound ferries, and they aren't bad, but that's about saving lots of mileage and time. (Orient Point -New London is about an hour and 20 mins / Pt Jeff- Bridgeport an hour 15 mins) They are useful for Long Island folks, further East the better, not really for NYC


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## VTTrain (Jan 8, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Gambling is illegal in New York, though, which would likely prohibit any kind of onboard casino...


Gambling is most definitely legal in New York.  It’s just heavily regulated.  New York has several commercial casinos and racinos.  Here is a list of them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casinos_in_New_York

Would gambling be allowed on a ship that does not enter international waters?  That’s highly doubtful, especially if New York had to share the revenues with other states.


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## PVD (Jan 8, 2019)

At the present time no. NY has worked against offshore casinos (which were really just gambling boats)  (operators wanted 3 mile limit, NY wanted the 12 mile enforcement which makes the trips unprofitable) in the past, but there have been situations (not in NY) where states have allowed riverboat casinos in specific locations. Some of NY's casinos have quite a bit to offer beyond gambling, Turning Stone as an example.


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## railiner (Jan 8, 2019)

This is the reason that a large ferry or cruise ship is not practical for an overnight run from New York to Boston....https://www.searoutes.com/portdistance?fromName=New York&amp;fromLocode=USNYC&amp;toName=Boston&amp;toLocode=USBOS  ...a bit too far.

Most cruises that depart from New York that call at Boston, will spend a day at Newport, RI in between, or a day at sea.   While smaller ships can use the 'shortcut' thru the Cape Cod Canal, if they did that, they would not be able to operate their casino's.   Only a smaller ship would use the East River, Hell Gate, and Long Island Sound, also no gambling.

Another barrier, is the ship would have to be US built, registered, flagged, and crewed to legally carry passenger's boarding in one US Port, and disembarking in another, under the Passenger Vessel Services Act.   They don't build large ones in the US anymore.


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## PVD (Jan 8, 2019)

Depends. Fairly large freighter and tankers are still routinely built, my brother in laws company just took 2 800 foot containerships from Aker/Philadelphia. NYC has 2 325 foot ferries under construction right now, but they are coastal not offshore. Other than riverboat stuff, not much overnight passenger action in the US flagged market.


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## cpotisch (Jan 8, 2019)

Here’s an interesting video that somewhat covers this:


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## tp49 (Jan 8, 2019)

As was said earlier gambling is legal in New York.  There's a Resorts World casino in Queens at Aqueduct.  There was a time close to twenty years ago now where a gambling boat operated from the South Shore of Long Island in Nassau County.  The boat's been defunct for years but it did exist.  I forget whether they went only three miles out or farther as time fades the memory.


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## PVD (Jan 8, 2019)

When it went from 3 miles to 12 miles they went out of business.


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## AG1 (Jan 8, 2019)

There is summer weekend ferry service from NJ/NYC to Marthas Vineyard, MA. There is also ferry service Marthas Vineyard to many points in MA and RI. They use the Seastreak ferries that are high speed catamarans which travel 30 knots, which is 34.5 MPH. The Cape Cod Canal and approaches have a maximum speed limit of 10 MPH which kills the Boston to NY travel time.

http://Routes & Schedules for NYC, NJ, Martha's Vineyard | Seastreak Ferries https://seastreak.com/ferry-routes-and-schedules/


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## Anderson (Jan 23, 2019)

The answer would probably be to get more trains NYP-BOS.  Taking that Acela timing, if an 0730 departure gets you to the other end at 1100, then an 0600 departure gets you there by 0930.  Also, a 2000 departure gets you there by 2330.  Not that hotels in New York can't be onerous, but the logistical issues cause problems that likely outweigh the benefits here.  This sort of issue sank the Enterprise up in Canada [1].

It doesn't seem utterly implausible to run something like a bus-to-ferry connection, but at that stage the run can arguably end up too short to get a full night of sleep (you don't want the ride to be less than about 8-9 hours).

[1] Well, as far as I can tell there were two issues.  The first is that the train was stuck sitting around in Kingston for rather a long time.  The second is that VIA didn't help themselves by opting _not_ to run via Ottawa, arguably giving up two supplemental markets (an evening Montreal-Ottawa service/morning reverse and Ottawa-Toronto as a market) in exchange for...er...more time sitting in Kingston.  By that token, there might well have been nothing to be lost by running through to Quebec City, but I'd consider an extension on either end to be conceptually a lot more speculative than simply bumping the train onto a different intermediate routing adding a major destination in the process.


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## PVD (Jan 23, 2019)

One thing that has happened in NYC is that a good number of additional hotel rooms have been built and brought on line in recent years. Many of them are not that fancy and pricing, while not cheap, is certainly not astronomical. With a bit of effort, good deals are usually attainable except around special event locations or peak tourist times.


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## Anderson (Jan 23, 2019)

PVD said:


> One thing that has happened in NYC is that a good number of additional hotel rooms have been built and brought on line in recent years. Many of them are not that fancy and pricing, while not cheap, is certainly not astronomical. With a bit of effort, good deals are usually attainable except around special event locations or peak tourist times.


And of course, AirBnB has helped on this front as well.  Moving a batch of travelers out of the hotels probably added even more slack to the system.


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## PVD (Jan 23, 2019)

NYC hotel occupancy rates have remained strong, the wider range of offerings has helped. Tourism has continued to be strong.  Avg rev per room night $229 occ rates just above 80%


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