# VIA Rail ex-Skeena Jasper-Prince George



## Swadian Hardcore

I'm planning to ride the old Skeena route this summer from Jasper to Prince George, as part of my Western Canada loop in conjunction with Greyhound. I'm going for one of the runs without Touring Class because that way I can pay a Coach (Economy) fare and still get access to the dome.

But I have second thoughts after hearing the non-touring Skeena consists may be operated with RDC's. Since RDC's likely lack the power to haul a Skyline Car around, rumours are rampant that it will just run as two RDC's with no Skyline Car. Then I heard that the RDC testing on the Skeena was "unsuccesful" so it's still led with a F40PH-3 (for now).

I have a few questions about this train:

1. Any news on the Skeena RDC's?

2. If the Skeena does not use RDC's, what is the likely consist for a summer Skeena with NO Touring Class?

3. What are the most scenic sections of this route?

I would really like to know that consist, I've done research on scenery and it appears to be lots of trees with mountains jutting out from them, plus quite a few bridges. The consist is interesting though, a lot of pictures show HEP2 Budd Coaches second-hand from the US with rebuilt interiors. You rarely hear about these cars, it's always about the original CP Budds. Any info?

Thanks for any information.


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## NS VIA Fan

I haven’t heard anything recently about the RDC’s being used on the Skeena. But if I were you, I would confirm that there will be a Dome in the consist on days when Touring Class is NOT operating. Otherwise you might end-up with a F40 hauling just a couple of coaches.

I know you are coming a long way......so to be sure of the dome......go for a day that Touring Class will be offered. You have to splurge every now and then! 

As for scenery.......Great! Especially west of Jasper where Mount Robson (highest peak in the CDN Rockies) will be just to the north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Robson

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The HEP2 Coaches and First (Business) Class cars are from the second HEP rebuilding programme in the 1990s and come from such varied roads as Amtrak, Western Railways of Alabama, Louisville & Nashville, Southern, Pennsylvania etc.

The HEP1 programme was mostly the xCPR Budd cars.

The HEP2 cars can be distinguished by the Blue/Yellow band above the windows. The HEP1s have a solid blue band.

The HEP2s were rebuilt with LRC type interiors and are used extensively in the corridor.

HEP2 Coach 360deg view:

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/360/Stainless_steel_Economy_corridor/index.html

HEP2 First (Business) Class

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/360/Stainless_steel_car_Business/index.html

VIA uses the HEP2 coaches on the Skeena as they have a Galley for meal preparation.


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## NS VIA Fan

The RDC’s were in Jasper when I passed through on my VIA Canadian trip in early December but I haven’t heard of their status since. Here’s a shot On Dec 3:







If the Skeena run wasn’t successful, perhaps the RDCs will head east. The run to Jonquiere and Senneterre, Quebec would be great spot for them. It would make for an easy split/combine operation at Hervey Jct.

.......and also an opportunity for me to ride a “Railiner” again (as CN then VIA called them). Rode them just about every Friday and Sunday evening when I was going to college. They were used extensively in the Maritimes:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Aw man, I'm already paying enough money on this trip, so I won't splurge for Touring Class. Heck, I hear it's not worth it, overpriced for the bad food.

Do you have to book in advance for VIA Rail Coach or can you just buy close to departure? I could just wait until June when the summer non-Touring consist starts rolling out and see if railfans report it with a dome or now.

I never even heard about Western Railways of Alabama, let alone their streamlined Budd cars. What routes did they have?

Are the 4000-4009 ever used on the Skeena? I see that they use 4100-4125. How do the Corridor Coaches compare to the Long-Distance Coaches?

Ugh, information on the Skeena is really sketchy.

BTW, great pics again!


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> The RDC’s were in Jasper when I passed through on my VIA Canadian trip in early December but I haven’t heard of their status since. Here’s a shot On Dec 3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Skeena run wasn’t successful, perhaps the RDCs will head east. The run to Jonquiere and Senneterre, Quebec would be great spot for them. It would make for an easy split/combine operation at Hervey Jct.
> 
> .......and also an opportunity for me to ride a “Railiner” again (as CN then VIA called them). Rode them just about every Friday and Sunday evening when I was going to college. They were used extensively in the Maritimes:


In case there was any doubt....  ........Love them 'Railiner's'........


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, that's what your username was named after! I never knew it was "Railiners" that ran for CN. Well, do you prefer a Railiner (RDC) or a F40PH-hauled Budd consist?

I know you love Budd, I do too, as a Philadelphian railfan there could not be doubt.....


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## railiner

On a long-haul, the locomotive hauled train would be preferred--especially if it had a dome car.....

If I was going to ride the Skeena, I would just have to ride it the whole route to Prince Rupert, and then time it to connect with an Alaskan Ferry back down to Bellingham if at all possible.....


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## greatcats

The Alaska Ferry does not serve Prince Rupert going south to Bellingham. You can take a BC ferry to Port Hardy on the north end of Vancouver Island. I think there is a bus connection. I took that ferry north with my car. You could take an Alaska ferry from Prince Rupert to Ketchikan. , then southbound to Bellingham. Keep in mind that these services are anything but daily and must be planned carefully.


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## Swadian Hardcore

greatcats said:


> The Alaska Ferry does not serve Prince Rupert going south to Bellingham. You can take a BC ferry to Port Hardy on the north end of Vancouver Island. I think there is a bus connection. I took that ferry north with my car. You could take an Alaska ferry from Prince Rupert to Ketchikan. , then southbound to Bellingham. Keep in mind that these services are anything but daily and must be planned carefully.


I know, I could take the Skeena all the way to Prince Rupert then BC Ferries to Port Hardy, then Greyhound to Nanaimo, another BC Ferry to Vancouver, and Greyhound back home.

But I would like to go through the Fraser River Canyon and VIA Rail take it at night so I'll have to ride Greyhound's Prince George-Vancouver route. So I'll get off the Skeena at Prince George, overnight, cut across to Vancouver on Greyhound, overnight again, then head home.

I'll consider the Prince Rupert option with the ferry, but, uh, budget's getting a bit high.....

Anyway, can I book VIA Rail Coach at the last minute and still get the $66.15 fare? I may need to just for confirming the dome car on non-Touring trains.


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## railiner

greatcats said:


> The Alaska Ferry does not serve Prince Rupert going south to Bellingham. You can take a BC ferry to Port Hardy on the north end of Vancouver Island. I think there is a bus connection. I took that ferry north with my car. You could take an Alaska ferry from Prince Rupert to Ketchikan. , then southbound to Bellingham. Keep in mind that these services are anything but daily and must be planned carefully.


Well in that case, I would take the Alaska Ferry from Bellingham to Prince Rupert, and then take the Skeena to Jasper.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Alaska Ferry does not serve Prince Rupert going south to Bellingham. You can take a BC ferry to Port Hardy on the north end of Vancouver Island. I think there is a bus connection. I took that ferry north with my car. You could take an Alaska ferry from Prince Rupert to Ketchikan. , then southbound to Bellingham. Keep in mind that these services are anything but daily and must be planned carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> Well in that case, I would take the Alaska Ferry from Bellingham to Prince Rupert, and then take the Skeena to Jasper.....
Click to expand...

You can't buy a ticket between Bellingham and Prince Rupert, look at this: http://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/doc/fares/S13W14_SETariffs.pdf. Bellingham and Prince Rupert are parallel on the fare table, there's no fare between them!

The ferry is going to be too expensive, I'm going for the Prince George-Vancouver bus instead. Just can't do it, man!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, well, I just saw an Express Deal on VIA's website that they're selling Edmonton-Vancouver sleeper tickets for 50% off, except the offer is invalid for travel after 15 June, so I can't use it now. But the next time something like this pops up, maybe I'll got for the Canadian after all.....


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## railiner

I wonder why they don't publish a fare from Bellingham to Prince Rupert? It appears to be a difference of about $35 from the fares published to points north of them. Wonder if they would sell it.....can't think of any possible restriction of traffic due to any regulations. Might be they only want to serve those going to or from Alaska.....


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But I would like to go through the Fraser River Canyon and VIA Rail take it at night so I'll have to ride Greyhound's Prince George-Vancouver route. So I'll get off the Skeena at Prince George, overnight, cut across to Vancouver on Greyhound, overnight again, then head home.


If you want a guarantee of a dome, why not ride the Canadian from Jasper to Kamloops. You’ll have access to the Skyline and with a 2:30pm departure from Jasper and the longest days of the year, there’ll be daylight ‘till nearly 10pm for mountain viewing. 

Stay overnight in Kamloops and take Greyhound the next day through the Thompson and Fraser River canyons……or just stay on the Canadian to Vancouver. A bright, moonlit night in the dome, watching the car lights ahead of a 25 to 30 car snake through the canyon, headlight on the rock walls and the signals changing is something to experience too. 

If you do stay overnight in Kamloops, you shouldn’t have any problem finding a hotel room for your budget. For a city its size, it has a huge number available being a highway and Rocky Mountaineer overnight stop. 

http://www.tourismkamloops.com/accommodations/list/index


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## Swadian Hardcore

I won't get off at Kamloops 'cause the stupid Kamloops North station is in the middle of nowhere and if the train is late I'll be getting off lost at 2 AM.

All Greyhound buses from Kamloops to Vancouver take the Coquihalla, which I might take on the eastbound run anyway to get to Kelowna, since the Penticton/Osoyoos bus via Crowsnest Highway departs Vancouver at 6:00 AM, too early for me.

Penticton-Calgary also departs at 6:00 AM the next day as a through run from Vancouver, but departs Kelowna at 8:00.

If I try riding through the Fraser River Canyon on Greyhound in daylight, I would have to ride from Prince George or take a Kamloops-Cache Creek bus then transfer to that same bus from Prince George.

I'd rather just ride the Skeena and directly then cut south on Greyhound. Plus, the Skeena seems like a nice little train and it's got a higher chance of getting cancelled than the Canadian.

Again, if the summer Non-Touring consist (Skeena) gets spotted without a dome, then I'll go for the Canadian. In that case, if I can get a good deal on a Sleeper, I'll ride all the way to Vancouver, if not, I'll ride Coach and get off in Kamloops, then try to find a hotel that's close to the station.

But that's Plan B so it's at the very back of my head. The question is, do I have to book in advance for VIA Rail coach? That's what I want to know, so I can wait for the consist to get spotted.



railiner said:


> I wonder why they don't publish a fare from Bellingham to Prince Rupert? It appears to be a difference of about $35 from the fares published to points north of them. Wonder if they would sell it.....can't think of any possible restriction of traffic due to any regulations. Might be they only want to serve those going to or from Alaska.....


Considering it's owned and operated by the State of Alaska, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.


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## tricia

railiner said:


> I wonder why they don't publish a fare from Bellingham to Prince Rupert? It appears to be a difference of about $35 from the fares published to points north of them. Wonder if they would sell it.....can't think of any possible restriction of traffic due to any regulations. Might be they only want to serve those going to or from Alaska.....


Two different ferry boats, both part of the Alaska Marine Highway system:

--one travels from Bellingham to near Anchorage, with first stop heading north/last stop south in Ketchikan, Alaska

--other originates/ends in Prince Rupert and connects only with points north, in Alaska

Ferries from Prince Rupert south are run by BC Ferries.


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## chakk

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hmm, well, I just saw an Express Deal on VIA's website that they're selling Edmonton-Vancouver sleeper tickets for 50% off, except the offer is invalid for travel after 15 June, so I can't use it now. But the next time something like this pops up, maybe I'll got for the Canadian after all.....


Just finished my bucket trip on the eastbound Canadian last night (8 hours late into Toronto). Seemed like everybody in the sleepers had _at least_ 50% off on their tickets, but still there were only 34 passengers spread among the four Manor cars and Park Car for most of our journey.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This is about Greyhound, but it's for the same trip. On the way eastbound from Vancouver to Calgary, I can choose between a quick stopover at Kelowna or Penticton. The Kelowna route appears less scenic but has better timing compared to the Penticton route (which continues to Osoyoos).

After the stopover, I'll be getting on 5006 either way, which goes through Penticton first, then Kelowna, on its way to Calgary.

I pretty much scoured the entire Western Canada section of Greyhound's System Timetable and have narrowed it down to these two options.


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## railiner

railiner said:


> On a long-haul, the locomotive hauled train would be preferred--especially if it had a dome car.....
> 
> If I was going to ride the Skeena, I would just have to ride it the whole route to Prince Rupert, and then time it to connect with an Alaskan Ferry back down to Bellingham if at all possible.....


Hey, wait a minute.....I just took another look at NS VIA Fan's photo's....and it appears like in one photo, the Railiner's are hauling a dome car! 

Probably just cars parked together, but it does look interesting.......


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## NS VIA Fan

railiner said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a long-haul, the locomotive hauled train would be preferred--especially if it had a dome car.....
> 
> If I was going to ride the Skeena, I would just have to ride it the whole route to Prince Rupert, and then time it to connect with an Alaskan Ferry back down to Bellingham if at all possible.....
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, wait a minute.....I just took another look at NS VIA Fan's photo's....and it appears like in one photo, the Railiner's are hauling a dome car!
> 
> Probably just cars parked together, but it does look interesting.......
Click to expand...

The cars were together on a siding but there was a slight gap (not coupled) between the RDC's and the baggage and dome cars.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No one here has been to Penticton and Kelowna? Ah, I guess I'll go for Kelowna, the schedule times are better.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> No one here has been to Penticton and Kelowna? Ah, I guess I'll go for Kelowna, the schedule times are better.


How long of a stopover would you have in Penticton or Kelowna then I could make a suggestion. Both are lake side cities in the semi-arid Okanagan Valley.

The CPR once operated an extensive steamboat and train ferry service on the lakes of southern interior British Columbia. One Paddle-wheeler is still on display at Penticton:

http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=6777

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/ships/LandR/history.htm


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one here has been to Penticton and Kelowna? Ah, I guess I'll go for Kelowna, the schedule times are better.
> 
> 
> 
> How long of a stopover would you have in Penticton or Kelowna then I could make a suggestion. Both are lake side cities in the semi-arid Okanagan Valley.
> 
> The CPR once operated an extensive steamboat and train ferry service on the lakes of southern interior British Columbia. One Paddle-wheeler is still on display at Penticton:
> 
> http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=6777
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/ships/LandR/history.htm
Click to expand...

Not very long at all, half a day touring time and an overngiht stopover.


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## NS VIA Fan

Here’s a link to a fans page on the “Rupert Rocket” a.k.a. the “Skeena”

http://rupertrocket.com/Home_Page.php

Click on the "home page" and "Jasper-George" links and scroll down each page for some video links


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Not very long at all, half a day touring time and an overngiht stopover.


Kelowna is a good choice for a short stop-over......a nice lake-front city.

But for a longer stop, I’d pick Penticton and it location to the trail network on the old Kettle Valley Railway. Some pretty impressive trestles:

http://www.okanagantrestlestour.com/route/

http://www.kettlevalleyrailtrail.com/


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the info, NS VIA Fan, I have a short stopover so Kelowna wins over Penticton. A long stopover is impossible for the Okanagans on this trip, considering my packed schedule.

Very nice fan page for the Skeena, too bad so many of the links don't work.


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## Swadian Hardcore

How's ridership and OTP on VIA Rail's Skeena? What about Greyhound in Western Canada? I'll be riding these so I would like to know. Greyhound OTP in Reno is extremely high.

I really want to know my chances of getting a seat in the dome and getting the overlooking second-row seat on Greyhound, assuming I get a DL3 which seems very common in Canada.

I'm also interested in the history along this route, I can find a lot of info about the Grand Trunk Pacific but very little about the train itself, which year it was streamlined, historic consists, schedules, etc.. All I can find is that it used to be Trains 9/10.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm also interested in the history along this route, I can find a lot of info about the Grand Trunk Pacific but very little about the train itself, which year it was streamlined, historic consists, schedules, etc.. All I can find is that it used to be Trains 9/10.


Here’s a little history:

Trains were generally a through Jasper-Prince Rupert service (first timetable below is from Oct 1960.







I did find a timetable from Oct. 1964 when Jasper-Prince George was and overnight train connecting to a daytime RDC Railiner between Prince George & Prince Rupert.






Here’s one from Oct 1975






.....and Summer 1980 along with a sample consist from that era:






VIA#10 at Jasper

CN 9176 FP9

15407 Steam Generator Unit

9482 Baggage Dorm

5548 Coach

1342 Diner

Green Hill 6-6-4 Sleeper

In November 1981, the Super Continental was discontinued, eliminating passenger service between Winnipeg and Vancouver on the route VIA’s Canadian uses today. VIA then extended the Skeena to Edmonton from Jasper.

On June 3, 1984 the “Panorama” was introduced between Winnipeg and Edmonton. Returning passenger service to the CN line via Melville and Saskatoon. It also replaced the Skeena between Edmonton and Prince Rupert......Basically a through Winnipeg to Prince Rupert train (tri-weekly west of Edmonton)






Around this time, fall/winter 1984-85, VIA leased an Amtrak Superliner consist to evaluate and used them on the Panorama between Winnipeg and Edmonton. I’ve never seen anything to indicate the Superliners ran through to Prince Rupert so a change of cars was required in Edmonton.

VIA #3 Panorama, arriving Edmonton on Sept. 28/84

Amtrak 319 F40

Amtrak 31041 Superliner Coach-Baggage

Amtrak 34030 Superliner Coach

Amtrak 38025 Superliner Diner

Amtrak 32019 Superliner Sleeper

VIA 15301 HEP Generator Car

On June 1, 1985 the Super Continental was re-launched. Replacing the Panorama between Winnipeg and Jasper and extended through to Vancouver. Returning passenger service to the CN line between Red Pass Jct. (Jasper) and Vancouver for the first time since Nov. 1981. The Skeena name returned as a through Edmonton to Prince Rupert train which was attached to the Super Continental between Edmonton and Jasper tri-weekly. (Engine+Cars+Engine+Cars) This was the way the trains were operating at the time of the Hinton disaster in Feb 1986.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinton_train_collision

In the mid 1990s, VIA split the train into the separate daylight runs it still operates as today.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How's ridership and OTP...........What about Greyhound in Western Canada? I'll be riding these so I would like to know. Greyhound OTP in Reno is extremely high.
> 
> I really want to know my chances of ...........getting the overlooking second-row seat on Greyhound, assuming I get a DL3 which seems very common in Canada.


Why not join the Canadian Public Transit Discussion Board.........They have a Greyhound Forum.

http://www.cptdb.ca


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, you really answered this one! So what are the trains with the "M" prefix? They seemed to have ran Prince George-McBride. I see there was only one train along most of the current Skeena route, except this one ran 6 time a week. Look like the "M" trains stayed around till some time between 1975 and 1980.

Those 4-8-4 and 6-6-4 sleepers are interesting too, I've heard of them a few times long ago but they seem like rare designs, though suffice to say the "Chateau" and "Manor" sleepers were probably the rarest build by Budd.

When did VIA switch from the smooth-sided CN to the stainless CP equipment on the Skeena? Was it the same time the Canadian got all-stranless equipment with CN seating put in the CP cars? Also would love to see what the original interior of the CP cars were like.



NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> How's ridership and OTP...........What about Greyhound in Western Canada? I'll be riding these so I would like to know. Greyhound OTP in Reno is extremely high.
> 
> I really want to know my chances of ...........getting the overlooking second-row seat on Greyhound, assuming I get a DL3 which seems very common in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not join the Canadian Public Transit Discussion Board.........They have a Greyhound Forum.
> 
> http://www.cptdb.ca
Click to expand...

I did, but I still can't access the forums. I actually watch CPTDB's Greyhound spottings all the time, even though their roster is outdated.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Wow, you really answered this one! So what are the trains with the "M" prefix? They seemed to have ran Prince George-McBride. I see there was only one train along most of the current Skeena route, except this one ran 6 time a week. Look like the "M" trains stayed around till some time between 1975 and 1980.


These were “Mixed” trains……..Freight trains with an old coach or combination coach/baggage car on the end. 

Most were gone by the ‘70s but one still exists today in Manitoba between The Pas and Pukatawagan. It’s operated by Keewatin Railway to serve a remote First Nation Community. VIA provides the passenger cars which you’ll see around 1:20 of this video clip:






http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet/combination-baggage-coach-car


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, rare locomotives and rare railcars, that train would be very intertesting to ride if I ever get up to Winnipeg. Not on this trip, because I'm packed around Western Canada already.

Now looking at VIA Rail rosters, it seems they have lots of rare railcars, like 8130-8147, which were Budd Long Distance Coaches purchased from the US then rebuilt to the same interior as the other Long Distance Coaches. I would really like to find out some history on these, I know a few were P85D's from the Pennsy, and three were from the NYC. But a full list with history, or at least the original operator, would be very useful.


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## NS VIA Fan

[SIZE=10pt]Here's the consist of the "Skeena" departing Jasper on Friday Apr 4 (as reported in the Canadian rail news group)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]F40 6411[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]8135 Coach (xNYC, xPC, xAmtrak, xCR)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]8703 Banff Park Dome Observation (xCP)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Short and Sweet especially with that Park Car![/SIZE]


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## Swadian Hardcore

That must be a nice little train! How do the F40PH's get spread around? I thought the higher-numbered ones with 90 mph gearing run mainly in the West and the lower-numbered ones with 95 mph run mainly in the East, but I see that is not the case.


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## jis

I wonder if that train can ever get positive fare box recovery. Maybe if run by volunteer crew or some such?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore

Jishnu, don't you know that most passenger trains run at a big loss? I agree that reducing the losses will be important to the survival of the Skeena, though.

It's a day train with a big tourist market that could be exploited without the troubles of Sleeper and Diner operation, something that affects the Canadian and Ocean, presumably also what killed the Chaleur even though it was a viable tourist route.

VIA Rail needs to market the Skeena more, bring back its official name, but don't cut the already-limited amenities. Market it as a fun daytime tourist ride, different from the transcontinental "rail experience" that the Canadian is seen as.

I suggest an extension to Edmonton or a bus connection.


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## jis

Isn't Skeena run mainly as an essential service? Has it ever had a significant ridership? Tourist or otherwise?


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> Isn't Skeena run mainly as an essential service? Has it ever had a significant ridership? Tourist or otherwise?


You've hit the problem right on target. It's never really had many passengers. Probably not even in the golden days of CNR. But we need creativity to save VIA Rail, and marketing it as a tourist train could be a very successful boost that VIA Rail is missing outon by possibly focusing too much effort on the Canadian. Again, I bielive it should be marketed for "fun" rather than "experience".

I might want to tell you that Greyhound service along the Skeena route only runs overnight and has pretty much zero tourist potential since it hits Jasper in the pitch dark. On the contrary, Greyhound's Vancouver-Calgary routes have gained lots of tourists.


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