# Safety Problem



## MrFSS (Nov 20, 2008)

I had occasion to be near a freight line track yesterday (not trespassing) and saw this tie and spike. Is this common? A safety problem? Should I report it to the Railroad?


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2008)

I've seen many a spike like that, and considering the condition of that tie, it's unlikely that the spike will cause any problem.

Now the tie definately needs replacing at some point, but as long as the ties surrounding it are still in good shape, that tie is unlikely to cause any problems.


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## George Harris (Nov 20, 2008)

No, this is not a safety problem.

Spikes DO NOT hold down the rail. Gravity does that. The tie plate keeps the rail from shifting sideways and the spike keeps the tie plate from shifting sideways. If no tie plate, the spike itself keeps the rail from shifting sideways. One spike missing is no issue at all. In fact, one tie completely missing is not dangerous, either.

Go here to find the track safety standards.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49



> 213.109 Crossties.
> (a) Crossties shall be made of a material to which rail can be securely fastened.
> 
> (B) Each 39 foot segment of track shall have—
> ...


Determination of these conditions is to be make by a qualified person.

A companion to the regulation is the Track Safety Standard Compliance Manual which is a commentary on the regulations and discussion of how they are to be applied. It runs to 155 pages and can be found at www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/tss_compliance_manual_chapter_5_final_040107.pdf

To give some idea of what this means, given that the normal wood crosstie spacing is 19 to 21 inches, a 39 foot section contains 22 to 25 ties. (Why 39 feet? Form many years that was the standard length of rail produced in or for the US. Therefore, it was dead easy to figure out things by 39 foot segments by noting the locations of joint bars or welds.)

If you read the above, you will see that you can SAFELY run 80 mph passenger trains on track with near 50% ties that are defective by FRA definition. Remember, these are safety standards, not comfort standards. A track can be quite safe and ride so rough it would be hard to stand up and walk. Notice that there is nothing about spacing or grouping of defective ties in the regulation. The compliance manual states:



> Effective distribution has not been defined, but must not be interpreted by the Inspector as synonymous with equally spaced. The language is intended to address situations where all of the non-defective or defective ties exist in a group at a short area of the 39-foot segment of track in question. Evidence that crossties are not effectively distributed includes, primarily, indications of an actual deviation


Again, a determination made by a person qualified, quite frequently not alone. I am not about to try to second guess a track maintenance person who has been at it for years.

One of the things that give the public and railfans a bad name with the railroad employees and management is someone running around saying "the sky is falling" when they see something like this that in reality is not a safety issue at all.


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## MrFSS (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks - I feel much better about it all, now.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 22, 2008)

thats nothing you want to see a bad rail


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## MrFSS (Nov 22, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



That one is pretty bad!


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## George Harris (Nov 24, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



Huh? We have a lot of vertical play at a joint having one bolt missing. Train is moving fairly slow. Probably acceptable. Remember these are SAFETY standards, not "look pretty" standards.


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## Neil_M (Nov 24, 2008)

George Harris said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



If you consider that ok, then it makes you wonder what you consider not ok.

Maybe you need to get those non WW1 bond paying French over and sort out all your fairly lame track!


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## Rail Freak (Nov 24, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> I had occasion to be near a freight line track yesterday (not trespassing) and saw this tie and spike. Is this common? A safety problem? Should I report it to the Railroad?



I saw guite a few of these in Folkston,Ga. I wondered the same thing. When I asked @ the "Funnel", they said it was typical,normal,etc. but!!!!


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## Rail Freak (Nov 24, 2008)

http://flickr.com/photos/railfreak/sets/72157608381149536/

Folkston


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## George Harris (Nov 24, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



It is not a question of what I say is OK, it is a question of what the the people who's business it is to regulate track safety says is OK. That is, the Federal Railroad Administration. Go back to my first post on this subject and check the links. Here it is again:

FRA track safety standards.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49

For the case in question, one missing bolt in a joint bar in jointed rail is not an FRA defect in classes 1 though 5.


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## Neil_M (Nov 24, 2008)

George Harris said:


> It is not a question of what I say is OK, it is a question of what the the people who's business it is to regulate track safety says is OK. That is, the Federal Railroad Administration. Go back to my first post on this subject and check the links. Here it is again:
> FRA track safety standards.
> 
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49
> ...


All those regulations and I have yet to encounter a smooth riding railway like is found in Europe even on lightly used branch lines.

On my recent 2 week trip to the US there were several really bad jolts and lurches which would result in a speed restriction straight away.

As for that video, granted there is only one bolt missing, but the others are loose and I thought the rail was supposed to be attached to the ties? Or is that not in the regulations?

The one thing that strikes me on my visits to the US is the poor quality of much of the infrastructure, pot holed roads, rusty and poor quality bridgework, a railroad that is falling to pieces and an airport system that is creaking at the seams.

So rich yet in such poor repair...


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## George Harris (Nov 24, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> The one thing that strikes me on my visits to the US is the poor quality of much of the infrastructure, pot holed roads, rusty and poor quality bridgework, a railroad that is falling to pieces and an airport system that is creaking at the seams.So rich yet in such poor repair...


OK . . . :angry: I have counted to 10, gone away a while, and waited. Still feel the same way: If you don't like it here, don't come. Not interested in telling you how to run your country, and even less interested in hearing you tell us what is wrong with ours.


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## Neil_M (Nov 25, 2008)

George Harris said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > The one thing that strikes me on my visits to the US is the poor quality of much of the infrastructure, pot holed roads, rusty and poor quality bridgework, a railroad that is falling to pieces and an airport system that is creaking at the seams.So rich yet in such poor repair...
> ...


I do like visiting the US even if it is falling to pieces. Even your new President reckons your country is falling to bits, so I must be onto something. Maybe those "everything American is wonderful' blinkers you wear need taking off from time to time.

You can have as many regulations and rules as you like, but that don't mean the end product is any good...


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 25, 2008)

George Harris said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



its going slow due to bad track. imagine what would happened if the train was at full speed or a 79MPH amtrak train. that section was not even held down to the wooden ties how long before the bolts fell out and the tracks seperate enough to derail a train.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 25, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Neil_M said:
> ...


I fail to see any huge difference between the New York City Subway System and the London Underground, or JFK, ORD, DEN or LAX airports and LHR or LGW (and I frequent all of the above). The UK is not falling apart, and neither is the US. And don't confuse campaign rhetoric with factual information. Both sides move to the extremes for the election, say things that are only slightly based on truth, and then magically come back to the middle when it comes to running things.

Hope you enjoy your next visit to our sad, "falling to pieces" country. I know I always enjoy visiting yours (Oyster Card in-hand), particularly now that the Pound Sterling is coming down to earth. Good for me in the UK, not so good for you in the USA. Sorry, mate.


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## AlanB (Nov 25, 2008)

Ok, before this topic gets too far out of hand let me just remind everyone to please keep things in perspective and to be polite.

Let me also mention that when it comes to RR infrastructure, George does know what he's talking about. George earns his living building RR's and has done so both on US RR's and foreign RR's. In fact he just returned to the states a year or so ago from his last gig overseas.


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## AlanB (Nov 25, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> thats nothing you want to see a bad rail



And that was the point that George was trying to make. Because the track is in that condition, it's probably rated a Class I track. Therefore no train, including Amtrak, would be allowed to go fast. So while it may not look pretty, it still meets Class I standards and therefore as long as the engineer follows Class I speed standards, it is safe.

If that RR ever wants to increase train speeds, then they will certainly have to fix things up at least some. But for all we know this is some obscure branch that leads to one customer, who gets one delivery a week, and therefore it doesn't pay to make repairs to the track as long as it still meets Class I standards.

Now yes, Kiss Alive, you're correct in that were an Amtrak train to run over that at 79 MPH we would probably have one heck of a wreck. And the engineer would now be out of a job for failing to obey the speed limit.


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## George Harris (Nov 25, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Neil_M said:
> ...


To add to Alan's point: When I was working overseas, I used to tell the new arriviing foreignors much the same thing I just said to you, but in reference to the country we happened to be in. For some very spcifically that, "If the urge comes over you to tell the people here how to run their country, put your lips in firm contact with each other until the urge passes." Generally people know quite well what needs doing in their own country and what and is being done and you have no idea of their daily realities or what is being done why and where. You are there as an invited (or maybe even uninvited) guest. Act like one.

As PRR 60 says, there is a difference between reality and political rhetoric. As to his comments on LUL and other things there, I have worked with a few ex-British Rail and London Underground people over the years. It is probably best you do not know some of the realities there.


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## Neil_M (Nov 25, 2008)

George Harris said:


> As PRR 60 says, there is a difference between reality and political rhetoric. As to his comments on LUL and other things there, I have worked with a few ex-British Rail and London Underground people over the years. It is probably best you do not know some of the realities there.


Only done 28 years on BR and the railway after privatization, so fully aware of what does or doesn't go on, thanks.


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## GG-1 (Nov 25, 2008)

Aloha

I want to add to this. How many time when you see something like these potential problems do you report them, or do you like the poster on you tube hide the location. I think I first saw that video of the loose joint 2 years ago. How often can an inspector walk the entire rail network? Even if divided by the number of inspectors.


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 29, 2008)

George Harris said:


> To add to Alan's point: When I was working overseas, I used to tell the new arriviing foreignors much the same thing I just said to you, but in reference to the country we happened to be in. For some very spcifically that, "If the urge comes over you to tell the people here how to run their country, put your lips in firm contact with each other until the urge passes." Generally people know quite well what needs doing in their own country and what and is being done and you have no idea of their daily realities or what is being done why and where. You are there as an invited (or maybe even uninvited) guest. Act like one.


George, may I fairly point out, that you constantly criticize the construction of foreign rail cars in a very similar vein?


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 30, 2008)

heres another video of the bad rail

 2 years sense this video i hope CSX fixed it by now but knowing CSX i bet not


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 30, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> heres another video of the bad rail



Have there been any derailments there?

If not... then the answer is no- CSX has not fixed it.


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## GG-1 (Nov 30, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> heres another video of the bad rail


If you look at that again you see it as a repair with the rail about 1/2 car length. How long ago were those taken? And remember the quote "whatever happens ... stays on You Tube"

Aloha


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 1, 2008)

AlanB said:


> But for all we know this is some obscure branch that leads to one customer, who gets one delivery a week, and therefore it doesn't pay to make repairs to the track as long as it still meets Class I standards.


If a track is that lightly used, why would the railroad bother to meet class 1 track standards as long as those weekly deliveries are freight? Wouldn't meeting the excepted track standards be good enough? (Apparently you can even move hazmat cars on excepted track as long as you don't have more than five of them per train.)


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 1, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > But for all we know this is some obscure branch that leads to one customer, who gets one delivery a week, and therefore it doesn't pay to make repairs to the track as long as it still meets Class I standards.
> ...


Hellllloooo disaster waiting to happen!


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 1, 2008)

GG-1 said:


> If you look at that again you see it as a repair with the rail about 1/2 car length. How long ago were those taken? And remember the quote "whatever happens ... stays on You Tube"
> Aloha


January 5 2006. haven't heard of any derailments so i guess its not fixed. its on the CSX Bethlehem branch.


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## George Harris (Dec 5, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > To add to Alan's point: When I was working overseas, I used to tell the new arriviing foreignors much the same thing I just said to you, but in reference to the country we happened to be in. For some very spcifically that, "If the urge comes over you to tell the people here how to run their country, put your lips in firm contact with each other until the urge passes." Generally people know quite well what needs doing in their own country and what and is being done and you have no idea of their daily realities or what is being done why and where. You are there as an invited (or maybe even uninvited) guest. Act like one.
> ...


You are missing my point. My point is that they seem to think that what they will accept in their own country should be accepted elsewhere, particularly in the US and that in general, we have to be stupid if we do not. Works both ways. On a project that shall remain nameless untill I no longer need to work, I saw use of US standards for some items cause trouble because the speciifier did not seem to understand the climatic and other differences between where he was and where he called home. The same thing can happen within the US when someone fails to grasp regional differences.

I could say al lot about the differences in track, but I won't for now.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 9, 2008)

Point taken.


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