# SEPTA - considering new rail line to K of P



## AmtrakBlue (Jul 16, 2013)

http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 16, 2013)

I don't remember much traffic congestion in the area. I've taken the 99 and 124 over there. There's no quote on how much this extension could cost.

How are they gonna built the line? Extend from Norristown? That would be backtracking comapred to a branch from Hughes Park.

SEPTA does have a bunch of long bus routes. I hope they will someday convert the 23 back to a trolley, though some switches got paved over.


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## afigg (Jul 17, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't remember much traffic congestion in the area. I've taken the 99 and 124 over there. There's no quote on how much this extension could cost.
> How are they gonna built the line? Extend from Norristown? That would be backtracking comapred to a branch from Hughes Park.


The plan is that King of Prussia would be on a new branch from the Norristown High Speed Line as I recall. As for traffic, KoP is a huge mall complex for starters along with a busy jobs center and would probably get respectable passenger numbers with a NHSL spur to KoP.
The biggest problem is that SEPTA is getting near starvation levels of annual capital funding. Until the Pennsylvanian State Legislature and the local governments provide more capital funds to SEPTA, a KoP extension is going to remain in the study phase.


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## me_little_me (Jul 17, 2013)

I want you all to know that as a recent visitor with my wife to Philadelphia, we contributed our share to SEPTA. As 65+ seniors, we got free bus, subway and trolley service as well as $1pp/per trip rail to/from Paoli. Spending $4 for 5 days of travel in Philly was our contribution. 

Other than Social Security and Medicare, one of the benefits of being old.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 18, 2013)

afigg said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I don't remember much traffic congestion in the area. I've taken the 99 and 124 over there. There's no quote on how much this extension could cost.
> ...


I know about the mall, I've been there, but I still don't remember much traffic, though if the extension runs directly to the mall, I would expect good ridership, too. The NHSL uses single-unit EMUs, so they're not hugely bigger than the current buses and won't run too empty anyway.


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 18, 2013)

me_little_me said:


> I want you all to know that as a recent visitor with my wife to Philadelphia, we contributed our share to SEPTA. As 65+ seniors, we got free bus, subway and trolley service as well as $1pp/per trip rail to/from Paoli. Spending $4 for 5 days of travel in Philly was our contribution.
> Other than Social Security and Medicare, one of the benefits of being old.


As an oldster myself, I'd have to say that this isn't contributing anything to SEPTA, it's putting them deeper in the hole.


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## me_little_me (Jul 18, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > I want you all to know that as a recent visitor with my wife to Philadelphia, we contributed our share to SEPTA. As 65+ seniors, we got free bus, subway and trolley service as well as $1pp/per trip rail to/from Paoli. Spending $4 for 5 days of travel in Philly was our contribution.
> ...


You obviously missed the smiley (shown) and sarcasm (implied).

But in any case, it is not true that SEPTA loses on seniors:

http://www.dvarp.org/NPT/NPTseniors.pdf

Senior citizens make up a important part of
SEPTA ridership: 8% of transit trips and 4% on
the railroad. Their fares are reimbursed by the
state lottery fund, so they ride free on the transit
lines and for a flat $1.00 on the railroad


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## Nathanael (Jul 19, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


Didn't SEPTA have to close the river viaduct to Norristown on the NHSL recently, due to lack of funding for maintenance? Yes it did.

http://www.septa.org/media/releases/2013/6-19-13.html

And these repairs are, unfortunately, not everything that is needed for that bridge.

I don't really see an extension past Norristown getting going when the state won't give SEPTA enough money to maintain the existing line. SEPTA definitely needs more reliable funding. (Among other things -- SEPTA management doesn't have a great reputation for forward thinking, either.)


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## Nathanael (Jul 19, 2013)

Bleah. Although, looking at the map of the proposed King of Prussia line again, I begin to suspect that the plan is to redirect the line to King of Prussia permanently and close the line to Norristown.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 20, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > afigg said:
> ...


The proposal is probably for a new branch to split from Hughes Park, not to go on the bridge.



Nathanael said:


> Bleah. Although, looking at the map of the proposed King of Prussia line again, I begin to suspect that the plan is to redirect the line to King of Prussia permanently and close the line to Norristown.


What about Norristown Transit Center and all the connections there? I know the KoP mall has a big transit loop, but don't think that can replace the old bastion hub at Norristown, especially with the ex-R6 Norristown Line.

SEPTA seems to be doing surprisedly good for how strapped they are of money. SEPTA does retain frequent transit service throughout the urban area, even on weekends which is rare in most cities now.


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## benjibear (Jul 20, 2013)

I thought there was some future plans to extend SEPTA back towards Pottstown and Reading which would take it right by Valley Forge.


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## Acela150 (Jul 20, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I hope they will someday convert the 23 back to a trolley, though some switches got paved over.


Your dreaming.. I believe a decent amount of the tracks are paved over now.

As for this KOP extension.. This has been talked about since before I was born! So that dates to before 1991. I think Septa is starting to take a better look at this. But since this has been talked about for years.. I doubt it'll happen. I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime, and I'll put some serious cash on that!


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## Acela150 (Jul 20, 2013)

benjibear said:


> I thought there was some future plans to extend SEPTA back towards Pottstown and Reading which would take it right by Valley Forge.


You think NS would allow Septa to run on those tracks? Not to mention it would require diesel power that doesn't exist in Septa's fleet and the money to buy Diesel's or DMU's doesn't exist.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they will someday convert the 23 back to a trolley, though some switches got paved over.
> ...


I'm probably dreaming, but I do still hope it comes back. It's forlorn to see those tracks with no trolley. I've actually ridden the trolley a bunch when I lived in Philly.



Acela150 said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> > I thought there was some future plans to extend SEPTA back towards Pottstown and Reading which would take it right by Valley Forge.
> ...


Too bad SEPTA got ride of the RDC a lot time ago. I wish they still had Suburban Buses to Phoenixville. And the Newtown line got cut to Fox Chase, the old part now an abandoned wreck. Man, has SEPTA cut back!


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## fairviewroad (Jul 22, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What about Norristown Transit Center and all the connections there? I know the KoP mall has a big transit loop, but don't think that can replace the old bastion hub at Norristown, especially with the ex-R6 Norristown Line.


I suspect not many people connect from the NHSL to the (ex)R6 or vice-versa, so you wouldn't lose too many rail-to-rail connections. Connections from the NHSL to suburban bus routes could just as easily take place at KoP. The only thing you really lose by entirely diverting the NHSL away from Norristown is point-to-point rail service from Norristown to Upper Darby/69th Street. And I don't think that's a huge factor. You'd still have reasonably frequent rail service to Center City via the (ex)R6.

In short, I think SEPTA should--if they ever get the funds--simply make the NHSL run from 69th St to KoP. Of course, you'd have to change the name, since

NHSL would no longer be an accurate description. ("High-Speed" is kind of misleading, too!)

That said, what should _really_ be offered is a one-seat rail ride from KoP into Center City, but I don't see that happening anytime in the next 40 years.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 22, 2013)

fairviewroad said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > What about Norristown Transit Center and all the connections there? I know the KoP mall has a big transit loop, but don't think that can replace the old bastion hub at Norristown, especially with the ex-R6 Norristown Line.
> ...


They could route the ex-R6 Norristown with a branch to KoP and that would achieve your goal. I know it's commuter rail, which is always hard to get money for and then build in the US.

I think the line is called "High-Speed" because it was originally a very fast interurban line for the time with the Bullets.

Edit: Not heavy rail.


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## AlanB (Jul 22, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They could route the ex-R6 Norristown with a branch to KoP and that would achieve your goal. I know it's heavy rail, which is always hard to get money for and then build in the US.


That's commuter rail; not heavy rail. Heavy rail is the Market Frankford line or the Broad Street line.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 24, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > They could route the ex-R6 Norristown with a branch to KoP and that would achieve your goal. I know it's heavy rail, which is always hard to get money for and then build in the US.
> ...


Sorry about the error. It's still hard to get funding for a totally new commuter rail branch.


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## MattW (Jul 24, 2013)

Even so, it would probably cost just as much, if not more, to run commuter rail out to KOP as the Heavy Rail NHSL. But you'd get far less benefit since you'd be stuck on commuter rail schedules, have staffing issues and a whole new host of more stringent regulations to meet. The maps I've seen show a connection to the north from KOP. I can't speak to what the commuting patterns are like, but it looks like they're at least considering revenue service in that direction. Given the distance, I'm not sure it would be more than shuttle service.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 25, 2013)

MattW said:


> Even so, it would probably cost just as much, if not more, to run commuter rail out to KOP as the Heavy Rail NHSL. But you'd get far less benefit since you'd be stuck on commuter rail schedules, have staffing issues and a whole new host of more stringent regulations to meet. The maps I've seen show a connection to the north from KOP. I can't speak to what the commuting patterns are like, but it looks like they're at least considering revenue service in that direction. Given the distance, I'm not sure it would be more than shuttle service.


SEPTA's Regional Rail does operate quite frequently outside peak times. Even on weekends, Regional Rail operates once every hour, which is much better than many other commuter rail lines. Of course less people ride on the weekend, but it's still decent service.


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