# Discussion of train names



## TheCrescent (Sep 23, 2022)

This is minor, but some train names aren’t the best for marketing.

For example, the names “Silver Meteor” and “Silver Star” don’t indicate Florida at all. Yes, those are famous names to railfans, but wouldn’t some other names be better, such as the “Florida Special”?

The worst train name of all time has to be the “Spirit of St. Louis”, named after an airplane, its competitor.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> This is minor, but some train names aren’t the best for marketing.
> 
> For example, the names “Silver Meteor” and “Silver Star” don’t indicate Florida at all. Yes, those are famous names to railfans, but wouldn’t some other names be better, such as the “Florida Special”?
> 
> The worst train name of all time has to be the “Spirit of St. Louis”, named after an airplane, its competitor.


My favorite name for a Florida Train was " The Orange Blossom Special".

The Train Name that most accurately described its Route was UPs " City of Everywhere".


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## joelkfla (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> This is minor, but some train names aren’t the best for marketing.
> 
> For example, the names “Silver Meteor” and “Silver Star” don’t indicate Florida at all. Yes, those are famous names to railfans, but wouldn’t some other names be better, such as the “Florida Special”?
> 
> The worst train name of all time has to be the “Spirit of St. Louis”, named after an airplane, its competitor.


I don't think anyone other than a railfan gives a hoot _what _a train is called. They'll just plug in their trip start and end points and see what comes up.

I can't recall ever seeing Amtrak advertise a specific train by name on media. If they throw up a blurb on the website, they might mention the name, but they'll also give some idea of where it runs.


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## TheCrescent (Sep 23, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> I don't think anyone other than a railfan gives a hoot _what _a train is called. They'll just plug in their trip start and end points and see what comes up.
> 
> I can't recall ever seeing Amtrak advertise a specific train by name on media. If they throw up a blurb on the website, they might mention the name, but they'll also give some idea of where it runs.


Amtrak markets the Auto-Train by name. Maybe calling it the “Silver Whatever” might not affect ridership much, but the name probably helps a little.


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## Northwestern (Sep 23, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> My favorite name for a Florida Train was " The Orange Blossom Special".
> 
> The Train Name that most accurately described its Route was UPs " City of Everywhere".


The Seaboard Airline all-Pullman "Orange Blossom Special, according to Beebe/Clegg, was one the most prestigious passenger trains ever. 









Orange Blossom Special - Train Inspired a Classic Country Song


The Orange Blossom Special was a luxury train that ran from New York to Miami.




is.gd





My favorite name for a train was CB&Q's "Nightcrawler", which ran from Billings to Casper to Cheyenne to Denver. It would be nice to have an Amtrak train run a north-south route in the midwest.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Sep 23, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> The Seaboard Airline all-Pullman "Orange Blossom Special, according to Beebe/Clegg, was on the most prestigious passenger trains ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An example of such a north-south route would be Minneapolis/St. Paul to Duluth (one I heard about when my daughter was applying for a job in Superior, WI); another would be Fargo, ND to Kansas City, MO (a route I traveled by car with some friends once in college).


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## Asher (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> This is minor, but some train names aren’t the best for marketing.
> 
> For example, the names “Silver Meteor” and “Silver Star” don’t indicate Florida at all. Yes, those are famous names to railfans, but wouldn’t some other names be better, such as the “Florida Special”?
> 
> The worst train name of all time has to be the “Spirit of St. Louis”, named after an airplane, its competitor.


The Spirit of Saint Louis was indeed a airplane. In no way was it in competition with rail service.


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## TheCrescent (Sep 23, 2022)

anumberone said:


> The Spirit of Saint Louis was indeed a airplane. In no way was it in competition with rail service.


Yes, it was an airplane, but it was also an Amtrak (and Pennsylvania Railroad and Penn Central) train that was named after the airplane. 

That’s like Amtrak naming a train “The Concorde” or “Boeing 787”.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Yes, it was an airplane, but it was also an Amtrak (and Pennsylvania Railroad and Penn Central) train that was named after the airplane.
> 
> That’s like Amtrak naming a train “The Concorde” or “Boeing 787”.


I think it is more parallel to naming a train something like Apollo 11. It was named after a feat of technology of the time.

Lindbergh's plane did not carry passengers. Heck, it barely carried him with enough fuel.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 23, 2022)

I am just happy Amtrak retained names. Look at VIA, the only train names they retained is the Canadian and the Ocean. Everything else is "Jasper - Prince Rupert train " or "Winnipeg - Churchill train". Sure, the Skeena or Hudson Bay train names are used informally by many, but never by VIA itself.

I'll take the "Silver Meteor" or "Silver Star" over "New York - Miami train" any day of the week.


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## railiner (Sep 23, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> My favorite name for a Florida Train was " The Orange Blossom Special".
> 
> The Train Name that most accurately described its Route was UPs " City of Everywhere".


Agree on The Orange Blossom Special!

"City of Everywhere" was not real...just railfan nickname for the remaining UP combined "Cities" train...


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## TheCrescent (Sep 23, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> I am just happy Amtrak retained names.  Look at VIA, the only train names they retained is the Canadian and the Ocean. Everything else is "Jasper - Prince Rupert train " or "Winnipeg - Churchill train". Sure, the Skeena or Hudson Bay train names are used informally by many, but never by VIA itself.
> 
> I'll take the "Silver Meteor" or "Silver Star" over "New York - Miami train" any day of the week.


Agreed although I’d like for Amtrak to give names to its new trains too, instead of “______ Service”.


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## Asher (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Yes, it was an airplane, but it was also an Amtrak (and Pennsylvania Railroad and Penn Central) train that was named after the airplane.
> 
> That’s like Amtrak naming a train “The Concorde” or “Boeing 787”.


I don’t want to sound confrontational. My thought is the Spirit of Saint Louis was like a living creature involved in a happening that everyone wanted a part of.


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## railiner (Sep 23, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> I think it is more parallel to naming a train something like Apollo 11. It was named after a feat of technology of the time.
> 
> Lindbergh's plane did not carry passengers. Heck, it barely carried him with enough fuel.


Agreed...everyone wanted to be associated with "Lucky Lindy", and his heroic feat. Besides, it was just a few years later that the PRR helped promote the fledgling air line service, by teaming up with Transcontinental Air Transport (TWA predecessor), and the ATSF Railway for the joint air-rail coast-to-coast service. PRR's overnight portion from New York to Port Columbus was named "The Airway Limited"...
And other railways also got in on the action...the NYC, and UP teamed up with UAL's predessor's with a similar operation. Some railroads tried to get into the airline business, but the Civil Aeronautics Board predecessor frowned on that, and would not allow it. Just as the ICC forced railroads to divest most of their intercity bus operations.

It is really ironic how railroads promoted their future arch rival's. Southern Railway especially, helped push the development of the national network of highways, with things like its "Good Roads" train...


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## railiner (Sep 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Agreed although I’d like for Amtrak to give names to its new trains too, instead of “______ Service”.


At one time, most if not all of the regional trains around the country had individual names...


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## Joe from PA (Sep 24, 2022)

Name-wise, the Silver Star/Meteor are perfect. They have the image of speed, and hence, being on-time (joke). The Crescent is a type of roll, but I don't remember them being served on our trip to NO.


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## TheCrescent (Sep 24, 2022)

Joe from PA said:


> Name-wise, the Silver Star/Meteor are perfect. They have the image of speed, and hence, being on-time (joke). The Crescent is a type of roll, but I don't remember them being served on our trip to NO.


Fair enough. I think that the Crescent is named after the Crescent City (New Orleans).

Another terrible train name: the Mule. Named after a relatively slow alternate means of transportation (mules)?


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## jimdex (Sep 24, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Yes, it was an airplane, but it was also an Amtrak (and Pennsylvania Railroad and Penn Central) train that was named after the airplane.
> 
> That’s like Amtrak naming a train “The Concorde” or “Boeing 787”.


If memory serves me, Amtrak did not use the "Spirt of St. Louis" name. The story goes that by the time Amtrak took over, Penn Central's "Spirit of St. Louis" had such a bad reputation that Amtrak decided to call the train the National Limited, which was originally the name of the B&O's New York-St. Louis train.


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## railiner (Sep 24, 2022)

jimdex said:


> If memory serves me, Amtrak did not use the "Spirt of St. Louis" name. The story goes that by the time Amtrak took over, Penn Central's "Spirit of St. Louis" had such a bad reputation that Amtrak decided to call the train the National Limited, which was originally the name of the B&O's New York-St. Louis train.


Correct. And the National Limited name choice, although it did not travel over any portion of the B&O, did indeed have 'national' implications, since it was extended on to Kansas City, directly served five state capitols, and gained a coast-to-coast thru sleeper to Los Angeles.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 24, 2022)

jimdex said:


> If memory serves me, Amtrak did not use the "Spirt of St. Louis" name. The story goes that by the time Amtrak took over, Penn Central's "Spirit of St. Louis" had such a bad reputation that Amtrak decided to call the train the National Limited, which was originally the name of the B&O's New York-St. Louis train.


Amtrak's National Limited was a actually a Kansas City-New York train and had an LA-New York sleeper that was cut off the Super Chief/Southwest Limited that went through to New York on the National Limited. A worthy idea and one of the very few service improvements brought by AmDay.

So the fact that starting on AmDay the train no longer terminated in St. Louis may have been a factor in dropping the "Spirt of St. Louis" name. Amtrak was not shy about putting a train name on a service that was on a completely different route and railroad from the one originally holding the name.


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## railiner (Sep 25, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak was not shy about putting a train name on a service that was on a completely different route and railroad from the one originally holding the name.


Agreed. In turnabout is fair play, Amtrak for a time, rerouted its Broadway Limited (former PRR) over the former B&O between Pittsburgh and Chicago, as well as running the Capitol Limited (former B&O) over the former PRR and NYC between Pittsburgh and Chicago.
They ran the Empire Builder over the former Milwaukee between St. Paul and Chicago, as well as the North Coast Hiawatha over that and the former NP between St. Paul and Spokane. The Silver Meteor, an original SAL train, was routed over the former ACL, Richmond to Savannah....



That said, Amtrak did keep most named trains on their traditional routes.


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## MARC Rider (Sep 25, 2022)

west point said:


> Thee was a ( Burligton airlines ) BN freight airline but have no idea of what if any relationship other than naming rights. One base was out of Toledo airport.


Back in the late 1980s we used to ship water samples to the lab using Burlington Northern Air Express before our agency got a contract with FedEx. They only had service to BWI and we were sampling on the Eastern Shore, so we had to save all of our samples from the week and ship them out when we returned to the office when we drove by BWI. I think I remember a Burlington Northern railroad calendar handing on the wall in the office where we dropped our shipment.


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## Joe from PA (Sep 25, 2022)

Speaking of the Broadway Limited. Because NYC was the first or last stop, the news media took the original train name "Broad Way Limited", and kept calling it "Broadway". In doing that, people thought the train was named after the famous street in NYC. In fact, the PRR named it because 4 tracks ran this route, and compared to 2-track routes, it was a broad way. This way, the Limited had the inner two tracks clear all the way.


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## Northwestern (Sep 25, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> An example of such a north-south route would be Minneapolis/St. Paul to Duluth (one I heard about when my daughter was applying for a job in Superior, WI); another would be Fargo, ND to Kansas City, MO (a route I traveled by car with some friends once in college).


I see Minnesota has killed the proposed "Northern Lights Express" train from Duluth to St. Paul/Minneapolis:









Minnesota Senate kills Twin Cities-Duluth passenger rail proposal - Trains


ST. PAUL, Minn. — Minnesota’s state Senate has blocked efforts to launch passenger rail service between the Twin Cities and Duluth, passing a budget amendment by a senator who said the idea was “like asking us to spend money on buggy whips.” Minnesota Public Radio reports the amendment by Sen...




is.gd


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 25, 2022)

My favorite name:

Orient Express

Mystery, intrigue, luxury, exciting destinations 

And Hercule Poirot!


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## jphjaxfl (Sep 25, 2022)

Right before Amtrak started on May 1, 1971, there was a press release stating that Amtrak would be doing away with names for trains, rather just numbers. I was in college in the Louisville. Ky area. The Courier Journal had a picture of the Southwind crossing the Ohio River on the Pennsylvania Railroad Bridge in late April and it stated the train which was going to be the only train left in Louisville would be #15 and #16 which were the L&N numbers for the train. The names staid, but after a couple of years, the name was changed to the Floridian and in 1979 it was discontinued.


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## railiner (Sep 25, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> My favorite name:
> 
> Orient Express
> 
> ...


I like this “Orient” train, better…






The Oriental Limited |







streamlinermemories.info


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## railiner (Sep 25, 2022)

And speaking of names with “exotic” destinations, how about this one?









"Panama Limited" (Train): Schedule, Consist, Stops


The Panama Limited was the premier streamlined passenger train offered by the IC. It was inaugurated in 1911 and was canceled in 1971.




www.american-rails.com


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## Willbridge (Sep 25, 2022)

One good reason for naming trains or naming corridor services is that if the railway doesn't do it, the employees or public will. And the name may not be complimentary.

That said, there are lots of examples of name changes that borrowed or reshaped names. For example, the _Orient Express _spawned the _Direct-Orient _and the _Balt-Orient. _And the glamor/glamour train of the novels and movies was the Direct-Orient.

I included _Pioneer Limited _on a list of possible names for the new Seattle<>Portland<>Boise<>Salt Lake City train in 1976, thinking that the previous user, the Milwaukee Road, had other things on its mind. Someone at Amtrak chose _Pioneer _and the name has outlasted the train.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 25, 2022)

railiner said:


> That said, Amtrak did keep most named trains on their traditional routes.


Except when Santa Fe wouldn't let them.

After Santa Fe pulled permission to use their trademarked "Chief" names due to poor service quality on 3&4, Amtrak renamed it to Southwest Limited, a similar name to NYC's NY-St Louis Southwestern Limited competing with Pennsy's Spirit of St Louis that kicked off this discussion, and the exact name of a Milwaukee Road Minneapolis-KC train. While Santa Fe restored Amtrak's use of their trademarked Chief names after Superliners were introduced (about 1983, IIRC) Amtrak never did go back to the traditional names. A good thing, calling the current iteration of 3&4 the Super Chief or even just the Chief would have me vomiting for about a week straight.


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## railiner (Sep 25, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> Except when Santa Fe wouldn't let them.
> 
> After Santa Fe pulled permission to use their trademarked "Chief" names due to poor service quality on 3&4, Amtrak renamed it to Southwest Limited, a similar name to NYC's NY-St Louis Southwestern Limited competing with Pennsy's Spirit of St Louis that kicked off this discussion, and the exact name of a Milwaukee Road Minneapolis-KC train. While Santa Fe restored Amtrak's use of their trademarked Chief names after Superliners were introduced (about 1983, IIRC) Amtrak never did go back to the traditional names. A good thing, calling the current iteration of 3&4 the Super Chief or even just the Chief would have me vomiting for about a week straight.


Yeah...Santa Fe CEO John Shedd Reed, took a very strong interest in Amtrak's operation of their former pride and joy. He was one of two railroad execs that reluctantly handed their passenger service to Amtrak, due to stockholder pressure. The other was SCL's William T. Rice. 
Besides renaming the Super Chief the Southwest Limited, Amtrak renamed the Texas Chief the Lone Star, until it was canceled.


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## MccfamschoolMom (Sep 26, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> My favorite name:
> 
> Orient Express
> 
> ...


My kids just attended a dinner-theater "dinner and a mystery" performance of Murder on the Orient Express with their godmother this weekend!


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## Palmland (Sep 26, 2022)

Certainly one of the all time great names was the ‘20 Century Limited’. For me it just symbolizes a classic streamliner with impeccable service and superb equipment especially when it ran with steam power and the 1938 version. North by Northwest helped immortalize it. I still remember hearing it had been downgraded to a utilitarian train from the owner of the Colorado RR museum in Golden around 1967?

Some would argue that in those later years the Broadway Ltd was the superior train as it retained its all Pullman status with observation until the late 60’s. I still think Amtrak should have used that route (at least the eastern portion) for its best east coast to Chicago train.


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## Joe from PA (Sep 26, 2022)

This 1941 movie showed the streamlined steam running, as well as interior shots. However, stupid plot. See it on Youtube.


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## Bfputtzman (Oct 14, 2022)

railiner said:


> Agreed. In turnabout is fair play, Amtrak for a time, rerouted its Broadway Limited (former PRR) over the former B&O between Pittsburgh and Chicago, as well as running the Capitol Limited (former B&O) over the former PRR and NYC between Pittsburgh and Chicago.
> They ran the Empire Builder over the former Milwaukee between St. Paul and Chicago, as well as the North Coast Hiawatha over that and the former NP between St. Paul and Spokane. The Silver Meteor, an original SAL train, was routed over the former ACL, Richmond to Savannah....
> 
> 
> ...


Correct me if I’m wrong but North Coast Hiawatha is an amalgamation of North Coast Limited (former NP) and Hiawatha (former Milwaukee), so that would fit the combined route it ran, no? To your point, the Empire Builder still runs a “non James J. Hill route” (the namesake Empire Builder) between Chicago and St Paul, so perhaps if the North Coast Hiawatha is restored, it could displace the Empire Builder back to the BN MS River route between Chicago and St Paul, and Mr. Hill can stop turning in his grave!


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## jis (Oct 14, 2022)

Bfputtzman said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong but North Coast Hiawatha is an amalgamation of North Coast Limited (former NP) and Hiawatha (former Milwaukee), so that would fit the combined route it ran, no? To your point, the Empire Builder still runs a “non James J. Hill route” (the namesake Empire Builder) between Chicago and St Paul, so perhaps if the North Coast Hiawatha is restored, it could displace the Empire Builder back to the BN MS River route between Chicago and St Paul, and Mr. Hill can stop turning in his grave!


There is a reason that Amtrak never ran its Empire Builder on BN between Chicago and the Twin City, and that reason has not gone away. So just for the sake of railfans feeling good the routing should not be changed now


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## Willbridge (Oct 15, 2022)

Prior to WW1 the _North Coast Limited _ran on the C&NW via Milwaukee. The secondary NP transcon ran via the CB&Q. After WW1 the _Soo Mountaineer _to Canadian points ran on the C&NW between Chicago and St. Paul, even though the Soo had its own pieced-together route. There were and are a lot of ways of running CHI<>MSP.


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## Willbridge (Oct 17, 2022)

I found this 1929 ad which shows the NCL brought into the Hill lines fold. The _Black Hawk _was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's _Pioneer Limited. _It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the _Western Star _and _Mainstreeter _with timetable dead-ends.


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## railiner (Oct 17, 2022)

Another clever train name, was the “Zephyr Rocket”, which was a jointly operated train between St. Louis, Cedar Rapids, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, by the Burlington (“Way of the Zephyr’s”), and the Rock Island (“Route of the Rocket’s”)…


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## cirdan (Oct 17, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> I found this 1929 ad which shows the NCL brought into the Hill lines fold. The _Black Hawk _was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's _Pioneer Limited. _It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the _Western Star _and _Mainstreeter _with timetable dead-ends.
> 
> View attachment 29957


That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.

I wonder what the story is with that?


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## jis (Oct 17, 2022)

cirdan said:


> That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.
> 
> I wonder what the story is with that?


My suspicion is that the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.

Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.


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## railiner (Oct 17, 2022)

cirdan said:


> That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.
> 
> I wonder what the story is with that?


The North Coast Limited and the Empire Builder ran combined Chicago to St.Paul, most of the time. Later, the Afternoon Zephyr (or Morning Zephyr (eastward) was also in that combination. They were separated during peak times.


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## Siegmund (Oct 17, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> The _Black Hawk _was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's _Pioneer Limited. _It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the _Western Star _and _Mainstreeter _with timetable dead-ends.



The Black Hawk still shows in the November 1969 Official Guide.
The spring 1970 BN timetable advertises a connection to the Pioneer Limited (but no mention of any assistance getting the Milwaukee station to catch it.)


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## railiner (Oct 17, 2022)

Siegmund said:


> The Black Hawk still shows in the November 1969 Official Guide.
> The spring 1970 BN timetable advertises a connection to the Pioneer Limited (but no mention of any assistance getting the Milwaukee station to catch it.)


Couldn't they connect in St. Paul? Not sure, but didn't all the roads use St. Paul Union Station? IIRC, it was Minneapolis where there were different stations...again not sure...strictly relying on my rusty memory...


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 17, 2022)

jis said:


> My suspicion is that the Empire builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.
> 
> Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.


Santa Fe ran the All Pullman Super Chief and the all Coach Streamliner El Capitan( where the Father of the Superliners first appeared) on almost Identical Schedules between LAX and CHI until Coaches were attached to the Super Chief consist.


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## uncleboots (Oct 18, 2022)

railiner said:


> Another clever train name, was the “Zephyr Rocket”, which was a jointly operated train between St. Louis, Cedar Rapids, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, by the Burlington (“Way of the Zephyr’s”), and the Rock Island (“Route of the Rocket’s”)…


The Zephyr Rocket stopped in my college town, Canton, Mo. It was discontinued 7 years before I entered college so I never got a chance to ride it. I did get the chance to ride the St. Louis to West Quincy Mo portion of the former route on a private excursion. I also go a chance to meet a gentleman from Hannibal Mo who was a Conductor on the Zephyr Rocket from the Hannibal to Burlington Iowa portion of the route. The train ran over CB&Q trackage from St Louis to Burlington and Rock Island trackage from Burlington to the Twin Cities. They would use Burlington equipment one day and Rock Island the next.


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## Willbridge (Oct 18, 2022)

jis said:


> My suspicion is that the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.
> 
> Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.


The other reason for bunching in the "golden" years was the pattern of connections. Almost every Eastern line had arrivals in Chicago stations in the morning. By the time waves of travelers got between stations the 10:45 a.m. _Comet _and 11:00 a.m. _Oriental Limited_ would be ready for boarding.

Taking a look at the total runtimes, we can also get an idea of how startling the streamliners seemed only a decade after the schedule above was considered to be good service. My dad recalls walking through the display train of the all-new (heavyweight) 1928 _Portland Rose _when he was five years old. By the time he was in high school the streamliner age had begun.


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## jpakala (Oct 22, 2022)

I rode the Zephyr Rocket twice, once from the Twin Cities to Cedar Falls, IA and once from southern MN (Albert Lea probably) to Cedar Falls. We were in coach but peeked into the Pullman and saw the 6 sections at that end of the car. When the NRHS met in Cedar Rapids some years ago I rode their fine train from Cedar Falls up to Manly and back. Last week I had a nostalgic visit to the line through Cedar Falls, a big curve across streets and blocks of backyards of homes, then down the center of a street, past the depot which had become a bank and now is something else, and then a look at the empty tracks yard where the line ends rather than continuing to Waterloo.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 23, 2022)

railiner said:


> At one time, most if not all of the regional trains around the country had individual names...


Well, yeah, back in the day, almost every train running up and down the NEC, except for the commuter runs and a few locals had names. I was a little miffed when they started calling them all either "Northeast Direct" or "Metroliner" (Now "Northeast Regional" and Acela"). But then I realized, I I really didn't care whether I was riding the "Senator" or "Morning Congressional" or "Patriot" or whatever when I was taking a ride to New York. All of these trains are really interchangeable; you pick the one you want to ride based in its schedule. They're all "Northeast Regional," which is basically 6 Amfleet I coaches, a cafe car, and a business class car. The only difference is the schedule, so it makes sense to give the service the one name rather than naming individual trains.

There may have been a time in the PRR days of yore when the names made sense -- the Congressionals offered more deluxe service than most of the other NEC trains, and the "Senator" was a through train from Washington to Boston, when most of the other trains just ran between Washington and New York, but these distinctions don't really hold anymore.


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## mcropod (Oct 23, 2022)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> My favorite name:
> 
> Orient Express
> 
> ...



And the train which captured the imagination, for sure, but with the most misleading names ever assigned a train - it didn't get within cooee of the Orient, never leaving Europe, and initially disgorging its passengers to make the last leg into present day Istanbul by boat from Romania. Istanbul is - to be sure a city in Europe *and* Asia - but the railway station was absolutely in Europe and a long way away from the Orient.

Bit like us in Oz calling the Sydney-Perth train the Scandanavian rather than the Indian Pacific.

/pedant mode off.


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## John Santos (Oct 23, 2022)

mcropod said:


> And the train which captured the imagination, for sure, but with the most misleading names ever assigned a train - it didn't get within cooee of the Orient, never leaving Europe, and initially disgorging its passengers to make the last leg into present day Istanbul by boat from Romania. Istanbul is - to be sure a city in Europe *and* Asia - but the railway station was absolutely in Europe and a long way away from the Orient.
> 
> Bit like us in Oz calling the Sydney-Perth train the Scandanavian rather than the Indian Pacific.
> 
> /pedant mode off.


/pedant mode on
I would disagree. "The Orient" is Asia, and Asia begins at the Bosporus, about a block from the train tracks. I don't know where the station was 100 years ago, but I doubt it was more than a walking distance from the ferry terminal. According to Wikipedia, one of the tunnels and one of the three bridges have railroad tracks now, but that is relatively recent. When you are coming from Paris, a few blocks is NOT "a long way."
/pedant mode off


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## railiner (Oct 23, 2022)

mcropod said:


> And the train which captured the imagination, for sure, but with the most misleading names ever assigned a train - it didn't get within cooee of the Orient, never leaving Europe, and initially disgorging its passengers to make the last leg into present day Istanbul by boat from Romania. Istanbul is - to be sure a city in Europe *and* Asia - but the railway station was absolutely in Europe and a long way away from the Orient.
> 
> Bit like us in Oz calling the Sydney-Perth train the Scandanavian rather than the Indian Pacific.
> 
> /pedant mode off.


I think that the name was more or less like the way the GN called its one time premier train, "The Oriental Limited"...had more to do with aspirations of connections to that destination than actually reaching it...
Like some roads having "Pacific" in their names...Missouri Pacific, Texas and Pacific, Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific, Saint Louis-San Francisco...etc.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 23, 2022)

railiner said:


> I think that the name was more or less like the way the GN called its one time premier train, "The Oriental Limited"...had more to do with aspirations of connections to that destination than actually reaching it...
> Like some roads having "Pacific" in their names...Missouri Pacific, Texas and Pacific, Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific, Saint Louis-San Francisco...etc.


Heck, the Broadway Limited never got any closer to Broadway than 7th. Ave. and 33rd. St.  At least the 20th Century Limited ran during the 20th Century.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Heck, the Broadway Limited never got any closer to Broadway than 7th. Ave. and 33rd. St.  At least the 20th Century Limited ran during the 20th Century.


But then the Broadway Limited name has nothing to do with that street name in New York City 

According to all documentation I have come across, it has to do with the broad rail right of way of the Pennsylvania Railroad.


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## railiner (Oct 23, 2022)

jis said:


> But then the Broadway Limited name has nothing to do with that street name in New York City
> 
> According to all documentation I have come across, it has to do with the broad rail right of way of the Pennsylvania Railroad.


I agree. It was named for the 4 track "broad way" mainline across eastern Pennsylvania. But as for Broadway in NYC...well...it does cross below Broadway going to and from Sunnyside...


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## Palmland (Oct 23, 2022)

I like trains being named for significant events. The Exposition Flyer (CZ predecessor) was named for the “Golden Gate International Exposition opened on Treasure Islandin San Francisco Bay. In response, the CB&Q, D&RGW and WP decided to operate a train that could take passengers to the event.[1] Service on the Exposition Flyer began on June 10, 1939.”

My favorite was the all Pullman Panama Limited that was one of my best train rides- “The Panama Limited was a passenger train operated from 1911 to 1971 between Chicago, Illinois, and New Orleans, Louisiana. The flagship train of the Illinois Central Railroad, it took its name from the Panama Canal, which in 1911 was three years from completion.”

And there is the not so famous New York World’s Fair Special the NYC ran the from Chicago the summer of 1964. In addition to one sleeper and sleeper lounge it had ‘New Meal-A-Mat Car’.


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## AustinTx22Pax (Oct 23, 2022)

I boarded the Sunset Ltd late yesterday in El Paso. This train's name appears logical to me.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2022)

Indian Railways named a whole class of daytime fast trains Shatabdi (Centenary) Express commemorating the birth centenary of Jawaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India. 

Additionally Indian Railways has a class of overnight fast Sleeper trains connecting each State Capital to the National Capital named Rajdhani (Capital) Express. 

The individual trains are differentiated by prefixing its destination away from the hub to the generic name e. g. Bhopal Shatabdi Express or Kolkata Rajdhani Express.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 23, 2022)

railiner said:


> I agree. It was named for the 4 track "broad way" mainline across eastern Pennsylvania. But as for Broadway in NYC...well...it does cross below Broadway going to and from Sunnyside...


Yeah, I knew that, but I was being funny.

By the way, the current mainline track across PA under the stewardship of Norfolk Southern is only 2 tracks. Even in the eastern part of the state, between Atglen and Harrisburg, it's only been two tracks, and it's been that way since the PRR built the Atglen and Suquehanna Branch for freight service.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Yeah, I knew that, but I was being funny.
> 
> By the way, the current mainline track across PA under the stewardship of Norfolk Southern is only 2 tracks. Even in the eastern part of the state, between Atglen and Harrisburg, it's only been two tracks, and it's been that way since the PRR built the Atglen and Suquehanna Branch for freight service.


I had actually seen the specific mention of the six track ROWin NJ in a couple of references. But who knows about the veracity of the details of such?


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 24, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, yeah, back in the day, almost every train running up and down the NEC, except for the commuter runs and a few locals had names. I was a little miffed when they started calling them all either "Northeast Direct" or "Metroliner" (Now "Northeast Regional" and Acela"). But then I realized, I I really didn't care whether I was riding the "Senator" or "Morning Congressional" or "Patriot" or whatever when I was taking a ride to New York. All of these trains are really interchangeable; you pick the one you want to ride based in its schedule. They're all "Northeast Regional," which is basically 6 Amfleet I coaches, a cafe car, and a business class car. The only difference is the schedule, so it makes sense to give the service the one name rather than naming individual trains.
> 
> There may have been a time in the PRR days of yore when the names made sense -- the Congressionals offered more deluxe service than most of the other NEC trains, and the "Senator" was a through train from Washington to Boston, when most of the other trains just ran between Washington and New York, but these distinctions don't really hold anymore.


Back in the day say before WW2 there were named trains which were usually faster making fewer stops and more luxurious, and trains with just numbers which were more basic and made more stops. Postwar as trains were removed, the numbered trains went first and name trains tended to be the ones remaining, although in many cases they were downgraded sometimes to coaches only despite carrying the name of a once glamorous train. This is probably why it seemed just about every train was named when Amtrak took over. I think it made sense for them to eliminate the names for the NEC regionals and Acelas as there is nothing to distinguish them. It would seem silly to have a train of 8 amfleet 1 coaches and a cafe be called "the afternoon Congressional" or "the merchant's limited" when it is no different from any other train on the route.


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## ehbowen (Oct 24, 2022)

John Santos said:


> /pedant mode on
> I would disagree. "The Orient" is Asia, and Asia begins at the Bosporus, about a block from the train tracks. I don't know where the station was 100 years ago, but I doubt it was more than a walking distance from the ferry terminal. According to Wikipedia, one of the tunnels and one of the three bridges have railroad tracks now, but that is relatively recent. When you are coming from Paris, a few blocks is NOT "a long way."
> /pedant mode off


Yes, you're correct. Asia is subdivided (to British and related audiences) as the "Near East", "Middle East", and "Far East." While it's the Far East which immediately springs to mind when "Oriental" is mentioned, all three subdivisions are quite properly referred to as "the Orient". And back in the day, once you crossed the Bosporus, you could immediately embark on trains to Aleppo and Teheran.


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## fdaley (Oct 24, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> It would seem silly to have a train of 8 amfleet 1 coaches and a cafe be called "the afternoon Congressional" or "the merchant's limited" when it is no different from any other train on the route.



It seems funny now, but the names for corridor trains were evocative and added a bit of personality even though the service had been entirely standardized by the 1980s. I remember in the late '80s we had a friend from college who'd moved to Philadelphia and was taking the train up to Mass. to visit. I don't think she had ridden anything more than a commuter run before, and she was all excited about the trip. "I'm coming up on the Benjamin Franklin, and then on Tuesday I'm taking the Merchants Limited back home." I didn't want to spoil it for her by saying the trains were basically identical.

And in the Hudson Valley, Amtrak's named trains like the Hudson Highlander, Storm King, Electric City Express and Rip Van Winkle gave a nod to local history and attractions, even if the service was just a mixture of Turboliners and Amfleet consists. By comparison, "Empire Service" seems kind of dull.


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## Northwestern (Oct 24, 2022)

railiner said:


> I think that the name was more or less like the way the GN called its one time premier train, "The Oriental Limited"...had more to do with aspirations of connections to that destination than actually reaching it...
> Like some roads having "Pacific" in their names...Missouri Pacific, Texas and Pacific, Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific, Saint Louis-San Francisco...etc.


I believe the "Oriental Limited" got its name due to the train's connection with the steamships, destined for the Orient, at the Seattle shipping docks. There was a brief revival of the "Oriental Limited" in 1946, but the name soon changed to the name, "Western Star".









Oriental Limited - Wikipedia







is.gd





Another interesting name, the "Buffalo Bill", of the Colorado and Southern Railforad, which ran from Denver to Cody, WY. I wish that train would make a return.


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## jpakala (Oct 24, 2022)

Speaking of train names, I always liked seeing the secondary trains to such famous trains as the _Sunset Limited_ and _North Coast Limited_ and _Empire Builder _whose secondary trains were, respectively,_ The Argonaut_ and The _Mainstreeter_ and _The Western Star_ as I recall.


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## railiner (Oct 24, 2022)

jpakala said:


> Speaking of train names, I always liked seeing the secondary trains to such famous trains as the _Sunset Limited_ and _North Coast Limited_ and _Empire Builder _whose secondary trains were, respectively,_ The Argonaut_ and The _Mainstreeter_ and _The Western Star_ as I recall.


In some cases, the "secondary trains" had minor variations in their routing from the more famous sibling. On some roads, holders of free travel passes, as well as discounted revenue tickets were excluded from the top train.


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## railiner (Oct 24, 2022)

Discussion of train names should include those that were never operated....such as the C&O "Chessie" domeliner, or the Rock Island/Southern Pacific "Golden Rocket"...they were proposed, and some equipment purchased for them, but they were "stillborn". Their equipment was distributed to other existing trains.


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## Willbridge (Oct 25, 2022)

In the group of names that are or were geographic should go the _Taurus Express, _from Istanbul to Baghdad, connecting to Basra. Much of this was on the "Berlin to Baghdad Railway" and it was included in the Summer 1971 _Ausland Kursbuch _of the DB.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 25, 2022)

Not many named trains in the UK anymore, where trains don't even have numbers (at least none for public consumption) but identified by time e.g. the 9:50 Euston to Glasgow. I do recall back in the 1970s riding on two "named trains" the first being the "Flying Scotsman" which was the 10:00 AM departure from Kings Cross to Edinburgh and was only distinguished from it's unnamed counterparts by basically running express, it did make a stop at Newcastle which may have been unscheduled as they had to change locomotives due to an issue with the trains motive power. Note that this was done in 15 minutes, I wonder how long Amtrak would take under similar circumstances . 

The other occasion in 1971 was the Brighton Belle which ran nonstop from Victoria to Brighton using a special set of EMU Pullman cars lettered for the train. Sadly that train was withdrawn soon after as were most BR Pullman services.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> In the group of names that are or were geographic should go the _Taurus Express, _from Istanbul to Baghdad, connecting to Basra. Much of this was on the "Berlin to Baghdad Railway" and it was included in the Summer 1971 _Ausland Kursbuch _of the DB.


Geographic names abound(ed) on Indian Railways. The two older trains with geographic names were:

Frontier Mail - Bombay to Peshawar, later curtailed to Amritsar, but still running the Northwest Frontier of the country. Now it is called Golden Temple Express after the Temple in Amritsar that is holiest of holy places for the Sikhs.

Howrah-Delhi-Kalka Mail (or Kalka Mail as used colloquially) which provided transit for the officials of the British Raj from the Capital of India then in Calcutta to the Summer Capital in Simla reached from Kalka by the Narrow Gauge Kalka-Simla line. It is now called the Netaji Express, Netaji referring to Subhas Chandra Bose, a freedom fighter who collaborated with the Japanese and tried to capture India with their help, unsuccessfully of course.

Then there were the various trains like Madras Mail, Punjab Mail, Ahmedabad Mail, Assam Mail, Darjeeling Mail and Bombay Mail (two of them - via Nagpur and via Allahabad), and the Upper India Express which followed the longest possible route at the slowest possible speed between Sealdah (Calcutta) and Delhi Jn.

In my old stomping ground in the back desert of Rajasthan there were the Meter Gauge Jodhpur and Bikaner Mails connecting those cities to Delhi, run by the respective (Jodhpur and Bikaner) State Railways before they became part of Northern Railway.

There were dozens others such, too numerous to list.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 26, 2022)

jis said:


> Frontier Mail - Bombay to Peshawar, later curtailed to Amritsar, but still running the Northwest Frontier of the country. Now it is called Golden Temple Express after the Temple in Amritsar that is holiest of holy places for the Sikhs.


Do they still run the twice a week Samjhota Express that used to run in theory between Lahore and Delhi but in practice required a change of trains at the Indian border town of Attari?


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## jis (Oct 26, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Do they still run the twice a week Samjhota Express that used to run in theory between Lahore and Delhi but in practice required a change of trains at the Indian border town of Attari?


I don't know if any of the cross border service to Pakistan has restarted to Pakistan. All the suspended services to Bangladesh have restarted and an additional cross border service between New Jalpaiguri (Darjeeling) and Dhaka Cantonment has been added recently. All the trains connecting India to Bangladesh are named using various words related to the idea of friendship

Kolkata (Chitpur)- Dhaka Cantonment - Maitryee Express (Friendship)
Kolkata (Chitpur)- Khulna - Bandhan Express (Binding)
New Jalpaiguri (Darjeeling) - Dhaka Cantonment -Mitali Express (Friends)

Incidentally Kolkata (Chitpur) and Dhaka Cantonment are both equipped with full C&I facilities, eliminating the corresponding country's border inspections at the border. Only loco and staff change at the border.


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## Northwestern (Oct 26, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> This is minor, but some train names aren’t the best for marketing.
> 
> For example, the names “Silver Meteor” and “Silver Star” don’t indicate Florida at all. Yes, those are famous names to railfans, but wouldn’t some other names be better, such as the “Florida Special”?
> 
> The worst train name of all time has to be the “Spirit of St. Louis”, named after an airplane, its competitor.


 Or, the reverse. How about an airline calling itself "Northern Pacific".

BNSF sues airline over use of ‘Northern Pacific’ - Trains


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## railiner (Oct 26, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> Or, the reverse. How about an airline calling itself "Northern Pacific".
> 
> BNSF sues airline over use of ‘Northern Pacific’ - Trains


Seriously, BNSF?

What in the world could prompt them to give a hoot about some start up airline using a name long defunct (over a half-century) by one of their predecessor companies? Do they worry that anyone could possibly think they were somehow related?

I guess their in-house attorney's don't have enough to do these days...


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## jis (Oct 27, 2022)

railiner said:


> Seriously, BNSF?
> 
> What in the world could prompt them to give a hoot about some start up airline using a name long defunct (over a half-century) by one of their predecessor companies? Do they worry that anyone could possibly think they were somehow related?
> 
> I guess their in-house attorney's don't have enough to do these days...


I would be surprised if they win. They have not used that moniker on anything for ages. You cannot just randomly place a hold on a phrase that you have not used and are unlikely to use for a long time.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Oct 27, 2022)

I could be wrong, but my assumption has always been the various "orient" badged/named trains - and other transport - referred to general eastbound (or in the US, towards the 'east' - Mordor I suppose) destinations.


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## railiner (Oct 27, 2022)

jis said:


> I would be surprised if they win. They have not used that moniker on anything for ages. You cannot just randomly place a hold on a phrase that you have not used and are unlikely to use for a long time.


Thinking about it, the only possible valid reason may be that they may be marketing some nostalgia products and jealously guard their “intellectual property”,,,?
Not sure…


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## jis (Oct 27, 2022)

railiner said:


> Thinking about it, the only possible valid reason may be that they may be marketing some nostalgia products and jealously guard their “intellectual property”,,,?
> Not sure…


It must be visibly used.

That is the reason that Amtrak has one car with the word Metroliner emblazoned on it, just to maintain control of that Trademark.


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## Willbridge (Oct 28, 2022)

railiner said:


> In some cases, the "secondary trains" had minor variations in their routing from the more famous sibling. On some roads, holders of free travel passes, as well as discounted revenue tickets were excluded from the top train.


Yes, in grade school my classmate Donna had a pass that was only good on SP 19/20, the _Klamath._ Her dad was a brakeman. My classmate Paul had a pass that was good on all UP trains out of Portland except for the Streamliner. His dad was a claim agent, so Paul could ride the _Idahoan, Portland Rose, _and the UP pool train to Seattle.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 28, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Yes, in grade school my classmate Donna had a pass that was only good on SP 19/20, the _Klamath._ Her dad was a brakeman. My classmate Paul had a pass that was good on all UP trains out of Portland except for the Streamliner. His dad was a claim agent, so Paul could ride the _Idahoan, Portland Rose, _and the UP pool train to Seattle.


As a kid, I remember being able to ride with my Grandparents on SP Trains except for the Sunset Ltd, since their RailRoad Pass was only good in Chair Coach on the "Lesser" Trains .( which were still pulled by Steamers!)

However, my first ride on the Sunset Ltd ( Paid/in a Section Lower Berth)was with my Mom to visit my Dad who was Stationed on the West Coast before going to the South Pacific @ the end of WW II.


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## TheCrescent (Nov 1, 2022)

railiner said:


> Seriously, BNSF?
> 
> What in the world could prompt them to give a hoot about some start up airline using a name long defunct (over a half-century) by one of their predecessor companies? Do they worry that anyone could possibly think they were somehow related?
> 
> I guess their in-house attorney's don't have enough to do these days...


Well, from BNSF’s perspective: it owns the name Northern Pacific and someone wants to make money from the name Northern Pacific; shouldn’t BNSF get its share?

I guess if I ever make money using my screen name, Norfolk Southern may come calling…


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