# More Greyhound cutbacks and comparison with airlines



## Willbridge (Dec 6, 2022)

In November 2022, as reported in "Various Short Trips Around the Willamette Valley," Greyhound Lines discontinued serving Salem, Oregon. Salem is the state's capital city and ODOT had recently renovated a station for them. Four buses a day now call at Woodburn, half an hour north of Salem.

In other Oregon news, Greyhound has lost its last schedule between PDX and SPK. Amtrak Trains 27 and 28 are now the only direct surface route. The truck stop location at Stanfield was not pretty but permitted SEA<>Stanfield<>BOI and PDX<>Stanfield<>SPK connections. The lone I-84 Greyhound trip (PDX<>BOI) now diverges to Pasco for connections and no longer stops in Stanfield. The new arrangement keeps connections SEA<PSC>BOI but requires an overnight layover in Pasco for PDX<PSC>SPK. At Pasco they are in the publicly provided intermodal station.

Pasco, Washington


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## Trollopian (Dec 7, 2022)

My Austrian grandmother, who immigrated to America 100 years ago this summer, developed a love of travel in the post-WWII years, always by bus, preferably by Scenicruiser. I inherited a great collection of postcards. Some of scenic wonders, others of very ordinary (but now-vanished) small-town "attractions" and bus terminals. We always joked that grandma would go to the moon if Greyhound went there. We understand the economic and demographic forces behind the decline of long-distance bus travel but it would've saddened her.


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## west point (Dec 7, 2022)

Did any posters eat at greyhound bus stations? Not fun!


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## railiner (Dec 8, 2022)

west point said:


> Did any posters eat at greyhound bus stations? Not fun!


The few remaining Greyhound terminal's that have cafeteria's operated by "Greyhound Food Management", leave a lot to be desired, in both selection and quality. Going back into the '50's and '60's, most Company operated terminal's had a "Greyhound Post House" restaurant and/or cafeteria, and sometimes even a cocktail lounge. The selection, and quality was better then, but not great. They depended on a "captive audience" of passenger's, that were too timid to venture outside the terminal during rest stops, to seek a better venue for meals.
Actually, the best of these were the Post Houses that were in highway rest stops, away from cities, such as the one in Breezewood, PA.

In the mid '70's, John Teets, who led a subsidiary catering company for Greyhound, came up with the idea of converting a couple of downtown Post Houses into franchise fast food operations, a Burger King, and a Hardee's. For the first time, workers in nearby office buildings actually came into the terminal's to patronize these, and the idea was so successful, that they converted nearly all of the Post Houses, Eventually Teet's was elevated to CEO of Greyhound Corp.


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## jis (Dec 8, 2022)

west point said:


> Did any posters eat at greyhound bus stations? Not fun!


In the '70s during my grad student days I traveled a lot by Greyhound since I could not afford Amtrak. At that time I did eat quite a bit at the Greyhound station cafes. They were OK then. I have no idea what the situation is now since I have not ridden Greyhound 30+ years.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 8, 2022)

jis said:


> In the '70s during my grad student days I traveled a lot by Greyhound since I could not afford Amtrak. At that time I did eat quite a bit at the Greyhound station cafes. They were OK then. I have no idea what the situation is now since I have not ridden Greyhound 30+ years.


I used to ride Greyhound as part of my trip to and from college. Transferred to/from a flight into O'Hare. I could have just waited in Jefferson Park, but usually the schedule was such that it was more convenient to take the L downtown and go to the downtown terminal (which at the time was near Clark and Lake Sts. I never actually ate at the bus station, as I always made sure to book a flight serving a meal, but the station was quite an experience, just as nice as a big-city Amtrak station. The thing I remember is they had these little TVs mounted by some of the seats in the waiting area. You could put some coin into the TV, and watch something to pass the time. I never did that, but it was sort of interesting, and I don't think I ever say anything like that in a train station. It sure beats the big TV monitors they have in airports nowadays, where you're forced to watch cable news channels you'd really rather not wtach.


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## Trollopian (Dec 8, 2022)

west point said:


> Did any posters eat at greyhound bus stations? Not fun!


Probably a dozen times, at the Post House in Breezewood, which as railiner notes was the best-known in the system. It's approximately the halfway point in the Pennsylvania Turnpike between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. With the expansion of the interstate highway system it was also "where the Midwest turned South and the South turned West," a key connection to Washington DC. Powerful legislators actually opposed improving the interchanges because the restaurants and motels and gas stations of Breezewood thrived on the cars and trucks forced to slow down and crawl through the town (if you can call it a town). A deliberate choke point. The Post House operated between 1935 and 2004. I googled "Breezewood Post House" and found lots of paywalled articles, but here's an open-access piece: 









Breezewood - The Rise and Decline of a Highway Rest Stop


It's the Pennsylvania Turnpike Interchange most people hate - and with a passion. The Breezewood Interchange - a junction of two Interstate...




www.gribblenation.org


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> Probably a dozen times, at the Post House in Breezewood, which as railiner notes was the best-known in the system. It's approximately the halfway point in the Pennsylvania Turnpike between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. With the expansion of the interstate highway system it was also "where the Midwest turned South and the South turned West," a key connection to Washington DC. Powerful legislators actually opposed improving the interchanges because the restaurants and motels and gas stations of Breezewood thrived on the cars and trucks forced to slow down and crawl through the town (if you can call it a town). A deliberate choke point. The Post House operated between 1935 and 2004. I googled "Breezewood Post House" and found lots of paywalled articles, but here's an open-access piece:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good article...thanks for posting. Here's a view of the Breezewood Post House...



Not shown is the two bay garage to the left side, and close to camera.


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## Willbridge (Dec 9, 2022)

In my three years in the U.S. Army, the only place where I got food-poisoning was on my way home in 1971 in the Greyhound Post House in Cleveland.

In 1975 I worked on the Oregon Intercity Bus Study and we surveyed passengers. We had no question about the food, so people wrote long diatribes in the margins about the Greyhound station restaurant in Umatilla. Greyhound no longer stops in Umatilla. On the other hand, the Trailways station restaurant in Salem was nice.


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## Skyline (Dec 9, 2022)

Many memories here re: the cafeteria at the Greyhound station in Pittsburgh, circa 1965. I was a young teenager, hung out in the Gameroom on weekends, became "expert" enough on a particular pinball machine to be able to play all day for a quarter if I wanted. Sometimes spectators would gather!

The cafeteria served real food. Lots of it. Affordably. Back then it operated 24 hours. Many years later it was converted to a Burger King. Boo!

In my later teens I spent weekends in DC, traveling by bus, and recall the stopover in Breezewood at the Post House. That was quite a busy operation when multiple buses all showed up at the same time. Enough to warrant two food lines if I'm recalling correctly. 

I didn't hate the Dog back then. It hadn't degraded to what it is today and the price was right. Kinda wish I had discovered train travel but that didn't happen until 1976.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 9, 2022)

I too rode many a mile on Greyhound ( and Trailways too)back in my youth.

I ate in many Post Houses all over the US,with the one in the San Antonio Station being the one I remember as having the best food.( my favorite was the Hamburger Steak with Gravy,Mashed Potatoes,Texas Toast ,"Salad" and Tea for around 85 cents!)


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## Trollopian (Dec 9, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> Powerful legislators actually opposed improving the interchanges because the restaurants and motels and gas stations of Breezewood thrived on the cars and trucks forced to slow down and crawl through the town (if you can call it a town). A deliberate choke point.


Ah, even in my dotage, my memory seems to be functioning okay. I remember friends who worked on budget stuff in the U.S. House of Representatives telling me that improvements to the notorious Breezewood interchange were systematically blocked by then-Rep. Bud Shuster, powerful member of a public-works committee. "Millions of people who travel between the Mid-Atlantic and the Midwest each year fight through Breezewood, Pa., a strange gap in the Interstate System...Although Mr. Shuster was a leading member of the House Transportation Committee and was known for steering taxpayer funds to local highway projects, he made clear that he would never permit funding for a Breezewood bypass, [Democratic state senator] Mr. Dawida recalled. (Mr. Shuster’s son, Bill Shuster, now represents that same district; his office did not respond to requests for comment.)"

Well, young Shuster finally stepped down after redistricting, and after four years without an Infrastructure Week it finally happened in a new Administration, but I have no idea whether the Breezewood Boondoggle will change.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/...n-at-the-junction-of-politics-and-policy.html (no paywall)

Capitalism and Breezewood


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2022)

Here’s an interesting link on Post House’s, including a 1955 menu.
I worked in that Omaha terminal from 1971-1973.








Menu, "Greyhound Post House Restaurant Welcomes You," Omaha, Nebraska, 1955 - The Henry Ford


Many long distance bus companies operated special restaurants to service their travelers. This 1955 menu from the Greyhound line explains that Greyhound's post houses were established to guarantee quality food and sanitary conditions for their travelers. In the days of stagecoach travel, post...




www.thehenryford.org


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2022)

Here’s a unique one, from 1952 at Greyhound Key, FL, along US-1, the “Overseas Highway” portion.


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/18134


Greyhound Post House on Overseas Highway, FloridaI’m


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## MARC Rider (Dec 9, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> Ah, even in my dotage, my memory seems to be functioning okay. I remember friends who worked on budget stuff in the U.S. House of Representatives telling me that improvements to the notorious Breezewood interchange were systematically blocked by then-Rep. Bud Shuster, powerful member of a public-works committee. "Millions of people who travel between the Mid-Atlantic and the Midwest each year fight through Breezewood, Pa., a strange gap in the Interstate System...Although Mr. Shuster was a leading member of the House Transportation Committee and was known for steering taxpayer funds to local highway projects, he made clear that he would never permit funding for a Breezewood bypass, [Democratic state senator] Mr. Dawida recalled. (Mr. Shuster’s son, Bill Shuster, now represents that same district; his office did not respond to requests for comment.)"
> 
> Well, young Shuster finally stepped down after redistricting, and after four years without an Infrastructure Week it finally happened in a new Administration, but I have no idea whether the Breezewood Boondoggle will change.
> 
> ...


There's at least one other "Breezewood" on the PA Turnpike, it's at the next exit at Bedford, where you have to exit on to US 220 for a short distance before you can get on to I 99. I-99, by the way was another brainchild of Bud Shuster.

At least, both at Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, the Turnpike exits feed you directly to the connecting Interstate.


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## railiner (Dec 10, 2022)

Skyline said:


> Many memories here re: the cafeteria at the Greyhound station in Pittsburgh, circa 1965. I was a young teenager, hung out in the Gameroom on weekends, became "expert" enough on a particular pinball machine to be able to play all day for a quarter if I wanted. Sometimes spectators would gather!
> 
> The cafeteria served real food. Lots of it. Affordably. Back then it operated 24 hours. Many years later it was converted to a Burger King. Boo!
> 
> ...


The Pittsburgh PA Post House was definitely one of the better downtown ones. 
BTW, Pittsburgh had the only one of its kind, fine dining restaurants, that was an experiment by the Post House subsidiary that lasted just a few years...
It was a top floor, windowed restaurant with great views, called "The Top of The Towers", located in the Gateway Towers condo building near The Point.

I always liked the "highway" post houses, that were not in downtown terminals, but in rural areas spaced to serve long distance routes with periodic rest stops...places like Breezewood, PA, Belvidere, NJ, Findlay, and Cambridge, OH, Effingham, and Gilman, IL, Mackinaw City, MI, Somerset, KY, etc.
These had often interesting architectural features, reflecting the area they were located, and were staffed by friendly small town staffs. There were many more...


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## Willbridge (Dec 10, 2022)

As Greyhound withdraws from its own stations, that's gone better in some cities than others. Knoxville which was important to both Greyhound and Trailways has had some difficulties.









Knoxville would charge Greyhound $600,000 to use the public downtown bus terminal


The city and the company are at an impasse after the bus line has moved its stations three times since selling its Knoxville terminal.



www.knoxnews.com





In Cincinnati they're not.



'An unfair burden.' Greyhound leaves downtown Cincinnati, moves station to suburbs



In Jackson, MS they solved the problem by suspending service. Meridian is picking up, an interesting difference in attitude vs. Knoxville.









City looks to outsource Union Station security


Nov. 30—An uptick in travelers moving through Union Station has the city council looking at hiring private security to keep the area safe. In a Nov. 22 work session, Community Development's Terrence Davis and Scott Sollie met with the city council to discuss the higher than normal traffic volume...




news.yahoo.com


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## west point (Dec 10, 2022)

One Christmas eve arrived at Ft. Wayne. Got to hotel at 1900. All restaurants closed after hotel had checked for us except Greyhound station restaurant diagonally across street. Went there against better judgment and finally gave up as food not edible. Starved until about 1400 and joined a Hilton Christmas lunch that was beyond belief. We had to take late time due to all city folk had earlier reservations. That reinforced my hate of post resturants.


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## railiner (Dec 10, 2022)

I blame the overall degradation of the intercity bus industry to deregulation. It wouldn't have happened under the old system, at least not this bad. 
The newest owner's of Greyhound, FlixBus, has accelerated this, if nothing else....


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## MARC Rider (Dec 10, 2022)

railiner said:


> I blame the overall degradation of the intercity bus industry to deregulation. It wouldn't have happened under the old system, at least not this bad.
> The newest owner's of Greyhound, FlixBus, has accelerated this, if nothing else....


Do you mean bus industry deregulation or airline deregulation? I think the long-distance bus companies got hammered when it became really cheap to fly. The remaining really strong markets for bus travel is for really short trips, sold really cheap. They don't even need to bother with terminals, just a bus stop on the sidewalk. And they're doing good business, too. Why should they spend the money for frills their passengers aren't demanding?



The New York Terminal for Megabus.



The New York Terminal for FlixBus, right across the street from Moynihan Train Hall.


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## joelkfla (Dec 10, 2022)

railiner said:


> Here’s a unique one, from 1952 at Greyhound Key, FL, along US-1, the “Overseas Highway” portion.
> 
> 
> https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/18134
> ...


Is that a rooftop dining area?


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## joelkfla (Dec 10, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> As Greyhound withdraws from its own stations, that's gone better in some cities than others. Knoxville which was important to both Greyhound and Trailways has had some difficulties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In Kissimmee FL they abandoned their station at the Intermodal Station in the historic gentrified downtown, with connections to Amtrak, SunRail, and several county bus routes, for a gas station off the Turnpike surrounded by not much more than a bunch of fast food restaurants. That's one less mode at the intermodal.


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## railiner (Dec 10, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Is that a rooftop dining area?


I don't know, but I see the umbrella and railing...could just be a sundeck for hotel guests. I doubt they would serve meals up there....


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## Willbridge (Dec 10, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> In Kissimmee FL they abandoned their station at the Intermodal Station in the historic gentrified downtown, with connections to Amtrak, SunRail, and several county bus routes, for a gas station off the Turnpike surrounded by not much more than a bunch of fast food restaurants. That's one less mode at the intermodal.


That sort of thing has been going on for about three decades, since the end of Continental Trailways. but I don't know if anyone has done a study of whether the saving in operating costs is greater than the loss in revenue from smaller centers versus revenue earned in big cities by faster endpoint travel times. Recently, after First Transit gave up, the moves have accelerated. It's first year high school algebra, but that doesn't mean in a large corporation that they're looking beyond operating costs.

The funny thing is that GL just has thrown Trailways out of the Albany, NY station because they now consider it a competitor. Greyhound over its life has swung back and forth between the "good dog" and "bad dog" approach, but this seems like a gunfight in a lifeboat.









Editorial: Get moving on that transit hub, Albany


The city's newest 'bus station' illustrates the need for a real downtown transportation hub.




www.timesunion.com


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## Willbridge (Dec 10, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Do you mean bus industry deregulation or airline deregulation? I think the long-distance bus companies got hammered when it became really cheap to fly. The remaining really strong markets for bus travel is for really short trips, sold really cheap. They don't even need to bother with terminals, just a bus stop on the sidewalk. And they're doing good business, too. Why should they spend the money for frills their passengers aren't demanding?
> 
> The New York Terminal for Megabus.
> 
> The New York Terminal for FlixBus, right across the street from Moynihan Train Hall.


Actually, there are still long-haul customers and Greyhound's problem is that they have most of them. On a Denver<>Las Vegas trip a couple of years ago I met a passenger from Newark, NJ who was traveling with his wheelchair to Vegas. He was on the northernmost transcontinental Greyhound schedule (New York City > Denver > Las Vegas > Los Angeles.).

The station problem is that not everything can connect in time with everything. The curbside carriers -- a status to which GL aspires -- can't run a network unless they can sponge off of a public facility at connecting points. If it has limited hours of operation (see Knoxville story), then there still is a problem.

The station problem was going on since the 1970's. In the mid-1970's, as an economy measure, they began getting rid of the field representatives who worked to set up local agents. In that period, they got rid of at least the Oregon part of their Teletype network -- long before e-mail could substitute for it. Way back, we touched on the downward trajectory of the intercity bus industry as politely as we could in the 1975 Oregon Intercity Bus Study.

At the time, they were still tightly regulated. There were state and federal differences, but one of the reasons for the regulation in the first place was the terminal problem. It's not surprising that the Union Bus Depot in Portland, Oregon opened in 1937, when federal regulation was taking hold. Before that there were Knoxville-style fights all over the country.

The regulatory system began to break down before deregulation, thanks to the interstate highway system. The regulatory concept was used to cross-subsidize small town service with revenue from linking big cities. That revenue was cut into by the new ease of operation for irregular services, legal or illegal. It became easier for regulated independent charter companies to operate over a much larger range under their existing authority without needing relief drivers. The expanding services of truck stops made it easier for unregulated charters to eat into the business. It made it easier for lower income folks to drive a round-trip to drop someone off and then return deadheading to home.

All of that was going on without the help of discount airlines, which added to the problems. I also should mention package express, which bloomed dramatically with the end of railway mail service and the bankruptcy of Railway Express and then lost out to better service offered by FedEx and UPS. Deregulation in some cases just recognized what was going on. By the time we did the Oregon study we had concluded that it would be more honest to say that society needed to subsidize some defined essential services rather than expect cross-subsidization to survive. (I'm sorry that I did not save the information, but there was a British libertarian economist who supported the same idea.)

Regarding stations, the Knoxville and Meridian examples illustrate choices for municipalities. They can either punish the traveling public by not tackling the issues or they can try to take advantage of it to become a better city. Well, there's also Albany, NY - do studies and then wait.

In this 1977 photo at the Portland Union Bus Depot, the Special in the background is a solid package express trip.


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## Skyline (Dec 11, 2022)

There is no longer a reason to force travelers


Trollopian said:


> Ah, even in my dotage, my memory seems to be functioning okay. I remember friends who worked on budget stuff in the U.S. House of Representatives telling me that improvements to the notorious Breezewood interchange were systematically blocked by then-Rep. Bud Shuster, powerful member of a public-works committee. "Millions of people who travel between the Mid-Atlantic and the Midwest each year fight through Breezewood, Pa., a strange gap in the Interstate System...Although Mr. Shuster was a leading member of the House Transportation Committee and was known for steering taxpayer funds to local highway projects, he made clear that he would never permit funding for a Breezewood bypass, [Democratic state senator] Mr. Dawida recalled. (Mr. Shuster’s son, Bill Shuster, now represents that same district; his office did not respond to requests for comment.)"
> 
> Well, young Shuster finally stepped down after redistricting, and after four years without an Infrastructure Week it finally happened in a new Administration, but I have no idea whether the Breezewood Boondoggle will change.
> 
> ...


That boondoggle NEEDS to change! A direct Turnpike interchange to and from I-70 is long overdue, the Shusters and their ilk be damned. But it wouldn't be cheap and it would be a lengthy construction project.

The Breezewood business district would need to survive just like all the others that are a few miles from a Turnpike exit. Fortunately, there is a large constituency of long haul truckers that would likely save Breezewood from itself if entry and exit points are reimagined for them. But more likely, a new and more efficient business district would develop nearby concurrent with a new I-70 interchange.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 11, 2022)

Skyline said:


> There is no longer a reason to force travelers
> 
> That boondoggle NEEDS to change! A direct Turnpike interchange to and from I-70 is long overdue, the Shusters and their ilk be damned. But it wouldn't be cheap and it would be a lengthy construction project.
> 
> The Breezewood business district would need to survive just like all the others that are a few miles from a Turnpike exit. Fortunately, there is a large constituency of long haul truckers that would likely save Breezewood from itself if entry and exit points are reimagined for them. But more likely, a new and more efficient business district would develop nearby concurrent with a new I-70 interchange.


I used to drive through there regularly during the period 2005 - 2018, and except for once during the Christmas holiday season, I never found it a real problem. There are two traffic lights you have to pass through, that's all. It's true that ever since they expanded the Midway Rest area on the Turnpike a few miles west of the interchange, there's a little more variety in the food offerings, but if you want to be served by a waitress or waiter, you still have to get off and patronize the Gateway. Plus, I have a Sheetz card, so I like to buy the discounted gas at the Sheetz in Breezewood. I think the state would be better off using the money to improve public transportation.


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## UserNameRequired (Dec 11, 2022)

Skyline said:


> There is no longer a reason to force travelers
> 
> That boondoggle NEEDS to change! A direct Turnpike interchange to and from I-70 is long overdue, the Shusters and their ilk be damned. But it wouldn't be cheap and it would be a lengthy construction project.
> 
> The Breezewood business district would need to survive just like all the others that are a few miles from a Turnpike exit. Fortunately, there is a large constituency of long haul truckers that would likely save Breezewood from itself if entry and exit points are reimagined for them. But more likely, a new and more efficient business district would develop nearby concurrent with a new I-70 interchange.


Those Shusters sound like they could be shiesters  I visited the area 7 years ago to walk on the retired interstate and go into the tunnels. It is very surreal to walk on an interstate and the weeds are growing in the cracks and the shoulders are overgrown with shrubs/trees as far as one could see in any direction. Very post-nuclear Twilight Zone vibe. I think the tunnels had a railroading past but I have to go to church now…


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## jis (Dec 11, 2022)

UserNameRequired said:


> Those Shusters sound like they could be shiesters  I visited the area 7 years ago to walk on the retired interstate and go into the tunnels. It is very surreal to walk on an interstate and the weeds are growing in the cracks and the shoulders are overgrown with shrubs/trees as far as one could see in any direction. Very post-nuclear Twilight Zone vibe. I think the tunnels had a railroading past but I have to go to church now…


You can read about how the Pennsylvania Turnpike came to use the right of way of a railroad that was never built....






South Pennsylvania Railroad - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## railiner (Dec 11, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Do you mean bus industry deregulation or airline deregulation? I think the long-distance bus companies got hammered when it became really cheap to fly. The remaining really strong markets for bus travel is for really short trips, sold really cheap. They don't even need to bother with terminals, just a bus stop on the sidewalk. And they're doing good business, too. Why should they spend the money for frills their passengers aren't demanding?
> 
> View attachment 30604
> 
> ...


Actually, regarding deregulation, I meant both...discount low cost airlines, for taking away most of the ultra long haul business, but more so for bus deregulation, which ended the practice of cross-subsidization and putting the cost of maintaining essential local services for those unable to drive on the taxpayers with county financed minibus services, that did not offer network connectivity to other regions.

When buses were regulated, protection from competition on mainline routes, along with the responsibility of maintaining local branch line services, resulted in reliable and predictable service, and with fares fairly based on distance traveled, rather than market supply and demand. The prices and number of schedules had to be approved by federal and state regulators, to prevent gouging, while making the service profitable enough to pay driver's and support terminal and administrative personnel a decent wage. A wage high enough, that to be a Greyhound driver, you had to be highly qualified to perform what was considered at one time the most prestigious of professional driving positions.

And on especially heavy mainline routes, the government did allow a second carrier to compete, but they competed only on equipment or level of service provided...not on fares.

Now with deregulation, there is no service to vast area's of the country formerly served, and cut-throat competition on lucrative routes, resulting in carrier's cutting costs with minimal services, low wages, sometimes sub-standard equipment and maintenance. No wonder it is so hard to find good driver's to join the industry.

Even into the early 1970's, Greyhound and Trailways nationwide were opening up new full service terminal's at the rate of one a month. Now I don't know which of the above pictured examples is worse...loading directly on the street, with zero shelter or facilities, or having an off-street parking lot, but a parasite like dependence on Penn Station for free facilities.


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## Matthew H Fish (Dec 17, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I think the long-distance bus companies got hammered when it became really cheap to fly. The remaining really strong markets for bus travel is for really short trips, sold really cheap. They don't even need to bother with terminals, just a bus stop on the sidewalk.


Sorry if this is a detour for a question that has been asked elsewhere, but how exactly, did flying become so cheap?
I mean, the basic economics of it would suggest that if a 75 seat passenger plane costs 30 million dollars, and a coach bus costs $500,000, and that if a trained pilot makes $150,000 and a bus driver makes $50,000, and that if an airplane needs an expertly engineered and maintained airport to land at while a bus needs a mostly level piece of asphalt, that air travel should just naturally be more expensive. And of course, we can fiddle with and explain some of these figures, but overall, it seems difficult to explain. Are prices for air travel lower because companies are sinking money in to obtain market share, and eventually that investment money is going to dry up, or is there something else going on?


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## Trollopian (Dec 17, 2022)

Matthew H Fish said:


> Sorry if this is a detour for a question that has been asked elsewhere, but how exactly, did flying become so cheap?



To paraphrase the old Yiddish joke, I assumed that the airlines lose money on every passenger but make it up on volume.


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## Trollopian (Dec 17, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> To paraphrase the old Yiddish joke, I assumed that the airlines lose money on every passenger but make it up on volume.


A more rigorous answer, I suppose (I'm an economist but not a transportation economist), is that flying is cheap between busy city pairs with plenty of demand. Airlines' costs are mostly fixed costs, not marginal. The airports and the airplanes are fixed investments and to make 'em pay off you have to fill them. The per-flight costs are payrolls and fuel, not trivial but incurred regardless of how full or empty the aircraft is. Hence a butt in every seat. (And "yield management," or what economists would call "price discrimination," i.e., charging people different fares for the same service depending on their price sensitivity.) Deregulation of airline fares enabled airlines to move overwhelmingly to flying the competitive routes between major markets and hub-and-spoke systems for everyone else. Like they say, wherever you're going on Delta, whether Heaven or Hell, you'll have to change planes in Atlanta. Small and medium markets were ill-served by deregulation but I suppose they were greatly cross-subsidized before that.


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## Matthew H Fish (Dec 17, 2022)

Also, this video explains that airlines lose money on flights, and the way they stay in the black is marketing Frequent Flier programs:


(This is a good channel, I don't know if this video is 100% accurate in its facts and conclusions though)


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## Willbridge (Dec 18, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> A more rigorous answer, I suppose (I'm an economist but not a transportation economist), is that flying is cheap between busy city pairs with plenty of demand. Airlines' costs are mostly fixed costs, not marginal. The airports and the airplanes are fixed investments and to make 'em pay off you have to fill them. The per-flight costs are payrolls and fuel, not trivial but incurred regardless of how full or empty the aircraft is. Hence a butt in every seat. (And "yield management," or what economists would call "price discrimination," i.e., charging people different fares for the same service depending on their price sensitivity.) Deregulation of airline fares enabled airlines to move overwhelmingly to flying the competitive routes between major markets and hub-and-spoke systems for everyone else. Like they say, wherever you're going on Delta, whether Heaven or Hell, you'll have to change planes in Atlanta. Small and medium markets were ill-served by deregulation but I suppose they were greatly cross-subsidized before that.


The shorter routes were cross-subsidized under the CAB's "all up" policy. Unlike the ICC, the Civil Aeronautics Board was mandated to encourage air travel. That helps explain the helicopter shuttles in big cities. When airline deregulation occurred, ridership on the _California Zephyr _between Denver and Lincoln increased. Air service decreased (rather completely in the case of old Frontier).

This clipping is a bit dated, but it reflects the government attitude that could only see expansion (closer to God than any other mode). There were many short haul or low patronage routes that lasted until the WWII investments wore out.


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## Fenway (Dec 18, 2022)

Growing up the old Greyhound Terminal in Boston on St James Avenue was lavish compared to Trailways in Park Sq.







The one bus company I truly miss is Vermont Transit as their service between Boston and Montreal was reliable. Greyhound bought them in the 70s but kept the name until 2008.

What infuriates me are the transportation options between Boston and Bangor, Maine. There is ONE daily bus. but not to Boston

From Bangor there are flying options but not to Boston which seems absurd.




But there are not even any FLIGHT options between Burlington, VT and Boston









Flight Status


Flight Status on Arrivals and Departures from Burlington, Vermont - Fly BTV




www.btv.aero


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 19, 2022)

Fenway said:


> What infuriates me are the transportation options between Boston and Bangor, Maine. There is ONE daily bus. but not to Boston


Only one by Greyhound, but Concord Coach runs 4 direct trips daily (via Augusta) plus one via the coastal route which stops at several towns along midcoast Maine including the Brunswick Amtrak station. Two of these trips serve the University of Maine campus in Orono just north of Bangor, when school is in session.


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## Jack Davis (Dec 19, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Only one by Greyhound, but Concord Coach runs 4 direct trips daily (via Augusta) plus one via the coastal route which stops at several towns along midcoast Maine including the Brunswick Amtrak station. Two of these trips serve the University of Maine campus in Orono just north of Bangor, when school is in session.


I feel your concern; years ago I was on vacation, flew to Boston and then took a Concord bus to Bangor, Maine, where I was going to get the car rental and continue to Ellsworth for a weeks stay. The Concord schedule made one stop along the route where snacks were served to the passengers! Wow, how nice.


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## Fenway (Dec 19, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Only one by Greyhound, but Concord Coach runs 4 direct trips daily (via Augusta) plus one via the coastal route which stops at several towns along midcoast Maine including the Brunswick Amtrak station. Two of these trips serve the University of Maine campus in Orono just north of Bangor, when school is in session.


Thanks for the correction. 

I can't believe nobody flies Bangor/Boston.


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## DetroitTed (Dec 19, 2022)

Why anyone would take a bus to anywhere at anytime has always amazed me. It truly has to be the only alternative for me to take a bus in this country.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 20, 2022)

Jack Davis said:


> I feel your concern; years ago I was on vacation, flew to Boston and then took a Concord bus to Bangor, Maine, where I was going to get the car rental and continue to Ellsworth for a weeks stay. The Concord schedule made one stop along the route where snacks were served to the passengers! Wow, how nice.


Yes Concord Coach service is pretty decent. I have not used it since before the pandemic, but our last trip was from Auburn ME to Logan Airport and back. They gave out free bottles of water to all passengers.


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## jebr (Dec 20, 2022)

railiner said:


> Actually, regarding deregulation, I meant both...discount low cost airlines, for taking away most of the ultra long haul business, but more so for bus deregulation, which ended the practice of cross-subsidization and putting the cost of maintaining essential local services for those unable to drive on the taxpayers with county financed minibus services, that did not offer network connectivity to other regions.


In an ideal world, I think it makes sense for us to subsidize the bus services that will not run profitably, rather than try and cross-subsidize profitable and unprofitable routes. Having competition can lower fares for those in the markets where there's a lot of demand, and potentially lower prices to the point where it's competitive with the marginal cost to drive. Cross-subsidization also basically means that bus riders on popular routes (many of who are lower-income) are the ones paying for essential services, instead of the populace as a whole (via taxes.) Essential services should be funded by all of us.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 20, 2022)

jebr said:


> In an ideal world, I think it makes sense for us to subsidize the bus services that will not run profitably, rather than try and cross-subsidize profitable and unprofitable routes. Having competition can lower fares for those in the markets where there's a lot of demand, and potentially lower prices to the point where it's competitive with the marginal cost to drive. Cross-subsidization also basically means that bus riders on popular routes (many of who are lower-income) are the ones paying for essential services, instead of the populace as a whole (via taxes.) Essential services should be funded by all of us.


Perhaps something for Buses like the EAS program for air travel.


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## Willbridge (Dec 20, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Perhaps something for Buses like the EAS program for air travel.


There is a federal program, but it's up to each state as to whether they want to participate or not. And it is structured to favor Greyhound connections. I've never seen a list of which states participate. I know that Colorado, Oregon and Washington do. If a governor determines that there is no need, the money can be used for local transit service.


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## Jack Davis (Dec 22, 2022)

Fenway said:


> Growing up the old Greyhound Terminal in Boston on St James Avenue was lavish compared to Trailways in Park Sq.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jack Davis (Dec 22, 2022)

When I was in Bangor, I recall being at their airport and seeing the passenger plane; it was a very small aircraft, maybe a 10 passenger? Prop engines. Perhaps a plane like that would be out of place landing at Boston Airport, maybe not safe enough with all the big jets in & out of there.?


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## MARC Rider (Dec 22, 2022)

Jack Davis said:


> When I was in Bangor, I recall being at their airport and seeing the passenger plane; it was a very small aircraft, maybe a 10 passenger? Prop engines. Perhaps a plane like that would be out of place landing at Boston Airport, maybe not safe enough with all the big jets in & out of there.?


Those little planes fly out of Logan. I once flew from Logan to Auburn, Maine on one of those puddle jumpers. They did Boston - Portland - Auburn - Augusta - Waterville. Up and down, up and down. Most of them are turboprops, but once my girlfriend flew up to Augusta where we picked her up and she was flying on a DC-3. (That was back around 1975 or so.)

Personally, if I'm not driving all the way to Maine, I just take the train to Boston and rent my car there. The trick is to time it to get out of Boston in between the traffic jams.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 23, 2022)

Cape Air flies Cessna 402's out of Boston, about a small a plane can be and still be considered a commercial passenger plane.
I miss when they were still flying DC-3's


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## jiml (Dec 24, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Cape Air flies Cessna 402's out of Boston, about a small a plane can be and still be considered a commercial passenger plane.
> I miss when they were still flying DC-3's


Also:


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 24, 2022)

Back in the day when I traveled extensively via Plane for Work, I visited many "out of the way" Locations that involved flying into Major Airports, then taking Feeder Airline Flights to those locations.

Many were still using Older Prop Planes, the best of which were DC3-s.

But several still were flying Small Multi-Engine Planes ( 2) including Cessnas,Pipers and Beechcraft.

In general Luggage was limited to 1 Bag,a Suit Bag( this was before Cell Phone and Lap Top Days)and a Briefcase or Backpack.

The pilots were mostly Youngsters building time so as to be eligible to move up to the Major Airlines, and as a result there were many things occurred that aren't common on the Big Planes.

This mostly consisted of rough Landings, landing @ the Wrong Airport and going through Turbulence since we flew @ Lower Altitudes.

As a Commercial/Instrument Single/Multi-Engine Rated Private Pilot I generally though I could have done a better job on some of these flights, but such is the ego of pilots!

These type of "Airlines" come and go, and the ones I flew on are all among the Long gone "Fallen Flags " .


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## Matthew H Fish (Dec 31, 2022)

There are two things to consider about the topic of buses (or trains) and airlines. 
The first seems funny at first, but it is also something to take seriously. The absolute most cliche topic in stand-up comedy is airline food, and airplane travel in general. And that isn't just in stand-up comedy, but in general, the basics of airline travel are something that pop culture in the form of movies or television will use without thinking as a framing device to explain many different situations. Whether that is a film like When Harry Met Sally, where they share a flight together, or an action movie like Die Hard II, or even Home Alone, the setting of an airport or an airplane is something that most people in the United States will understand, even by osmosis. People who only fly every few years still know these things by osmosis, and so most people in the United States will look at airline travel as the most normal, standard way to travel. On the other hand, if a movie shows people travelling by bus it is probably to show that they are destitute or at least struggling. And if train travel is depicted, it will usually be depicted as being just a quaint relic.


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## Matthew H Fish (Dec 31, 2022)

And a second thing to look at, more quantifiable, is the amount of subsidies that US airports and airlines get---which is quantifiable, but sometimes hard to measure. 
There are some obvious things to look at, like the Essential Air Service program---which subsidizes around 20% of US airports in the lower 48. Of course, these airports make up a much smaller percentage of flights, but I believe the EAS is kind of a "keystone species" for air travel in the United States. As long as air travel is so ubiquitous that it seems like the only "normal" way to travel, people wouldn't consider buses or trains. And this is strengthened by, as I pointed out above, that air travel is culturally ubiquitous as well. 
EAS does have a role to play in some places where distances really are great, but if you look at a map of EAS airports, many places with very distant communities (Idaho and Nevada) don't have them, while many places have them that are not too far from major cities, for example across the Mississippi. 



https://airlinegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/EAS-Airports-lower-48.jpg


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## Willbridge (Dec 31, 2022)

Matthew H Fish said:


> And a second thing to look at, more quantifiable, is the amount of subsidies that US airports and airlines get---which is quantifiable, but sometimes hard to measure.
> There are some obvious things to look at, like the Essential Air Service program---which subsidizes around 20% of US airports in the lower 48. Of course, these airports make up a much smaller percentage of flights, but I believe the EAS is kind of a "keystone species" for air travel in the United States. As long as air travel is so ubiquitous that it seems like the only "normal" way to travel, people wouldn't consider buses or trains. And this is strengthened by, as I pointed out above, that air travel is culturally ubiquitous as well.
> EAS does have a role to play in some places where distances really are great, but if you look at a map of EAS airports, many places with very distant communities (Idaho and Nevada) don't have them, while many places have them that are not too far from major cities, for example across the Mississippi.
> 
> ...


USA Today, which intentionally covers commercial air service heavily, ran an article that provides more on the criteria for EAS.









This town of 7,500 has 2 daily flights: How the Essential Air Service keeps us connected.


The Essential Air Service, a lesser-known subsidy program, helps keep remote communities connected to the national aviation network.



www.usatoday.com


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## Matthew H Fish (Jan 1, 2023)

Willbridge said:


> USA Today, which intentionally covers commercial air service heavily, ran an article that provides more on the criteria for EAS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that the USA today article might be a little misleading. Not in a malicious way, but just that the community it talks about isn't typical of where many or most EAS airports are. For every town like Page, Arizona or Glasgow, Montana, where travel to another airport, or grand transport to a larger city, would be arduous (although Glasgow of course is on the Empire Builder route), there are many communities like Eau Claire, Wisconsin (100 miles to Minneapolis-St. Paul), Decatur, Illinois (40 miles to Springfield) or Muskegon, Michigan (50 miles to Grand Rapids) where the main purpose seems to be to save people a commute that could be done by shuttle bus. 
But to return to the main point, that is one of the things that airlines do that bus companies stopped doing: they build networks. Airlines and the air travel industry (including public parts of it, like airports), are able and willing to get money and resources to serve everyone, including by legislative programs like the EAS. Greyhound used to have a network, and a pretty good one, and a lot of that network involved having stations and running routes to places that weren't immediately profitable. Greyhound has ceased to be a network, and because it has ceased to be a network, people will stop considering it as a travel option.


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## west point (Jan 1, 2023)

Any hints what Greyhound is doing with their surplus buses? Could it be the shrinkage is because their buses are becoming only good for scrap ?.


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## Willbridge (Jan 2, 2023)

west point said:


> Any hints what Greyhound is doing with their surplus buses? Could it be the shrinkage is because their buses are becoming only good for scrap ?.


They have usually sold their used buses to other carriers or entities. However, the shrinkage does fit with a steady decline in the fleet needed. In December 2015, when there were still two daily PDX<>BOI<>DEN trips, the night trip through a snowstorm in the Blues was topped off by the heat failing. We made into Boise, but a local mechanic couldn't fix it. They had to charter a bus from Northwestern to Salt Lake City. Greyhound covered SLC<>DEN on time with a spare bus without us and invited us to sleep on the station benches till the other departure. Old-timers who I've told this story are mind-boggled at the idea of Greyhound Lines not having a spare bus between Portland and Salt Lake City.

That probably won't happen again, because they've turned the BOI<>SLC segment over to Salt Lake Express and there is only one trip a day, so it reduces the chance of needing a spare bus.


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## Matthew H Fish (Jan 2, 2023)

Even though buses can get pretty expensive, I imagine in most cases that the main cost of bus companies is labor. Drivers and mechanics are both highly skilled occupations. The shrinking of the network was probably because the labor cost of keeping buildings staffed was expensive. At least, this is what I think, I don't know where I could find figures on this.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 2, 2023)

Matthew H Fish said:


> Even though buses can get pretty expensive, I imagine in most cases that the main cost of bus companies is labor. Drivers and mechanics are both highly skilled occupations. The shrinking of the network was probably because the labor cost of keeping buildings staffed was expensive. At least, this is what I think, I don't know where I could find figures on this.


As anyone who has seen the Megabus and Flixbus "terminals" Manhattan knows, you don't need staffed buildings to have a bus network. A public sidewalk does just fine, and if people need to wait somewhere for connections, well, the private sector can come in and open a coffee shop or bar for them. Of course, they still need a network of garages for mechanical work, but, heck, maybe they can outsource that, too.


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## Matthew H Fish (Jan 2, 2023)

MARC Rider said:


> As anyone who has seen the Megabus and Flixbus "terminals" Manhattan knows, you don't need staffed buildings to have a bus network. A public sidewalk does just fine, and if people need to wait somewhere for connections, well, the private sector can come in and open a coffee shop or bar for them. Of course, they still need a network of garages for mechanical work, but, heck, maybe they can outsource that, too.



I would say that Flixbus doesn't have a network. Flixbus operates point-to-point trips between the busiest hubs, but they don't really have a network. If you want to go from Manhattan to Washington, DC, you can just show up at the curb and jump on a bus without too much trouble. But say you want to go from Albany, New York to Trenton, New Jersey (looking at the flixbus website right now, Albany is listed as a station, but there are currently no trips to New York), then you do need facilities, because no one wants to wait on the sidewalk. 
But keeping those facilities open is costly, and it effects a smaller amount of passengers---there are a lot more people in New York City than in Albany. So for a business, it is a lot of overhead to maintain a network, staffing smaller stations might mean you lose money on them. But it is a loss leader to maintain ubiquity, which builds loyal customers.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jan 4, 2023)

The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol

Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me. 

Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 4, 2023)

NativeSon5859 said:


> The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol
> 
> Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.


I've done the Reno to Vegas segment on the Dawg. "There's No There There!" It's pretty desolate if done in Daylight.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jan 5, 2023)

Here in Northern New England we are basically down to 3 GL routes left, as of the December 2, 2022 timetable. 
- One round trip Boston - Portland - Bangor
- One round trip Boston - Manchester NH - WR Jct. VT - Montpelier - Burlington - Montreal PQ
- One round trip Springfield MA - White River Jct. VT (which connects northbound with the Montreal bus but not southbound)

Of course there are other alternative bus lines for some of these destinations.


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## Willbridge (Saturday at 2:57 AM)

NativeSon5859 said:


> The past two years I’ve done Greyhound NYC-LAX. Two years ago I did the northern route via Denver and Vegas… last year, the southern, via Albuquerque and Phoenix. Both had their moments of frustration but I had a great time, overall. I enjoyed seeing parts of the country from the ground that I wouldn’t typically see. I’ve started doing the bus more because I’ve ridden the entire Amtrak network probably five times over in its entirety and they’ve pretty much priced me out from taking a sleeper. But I actually like riding the bus. I even sleep better at night on a bus compared to Amtrak coach. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a kid? Lol
> 
> Anyway, next month, I’ve decided to go bigger. I’ll be doing NYC-Portland, OR via Richmond, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Boise. Then I’ll be going home to New Orleans via Sacramento, Reno, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, and Houston. 4 nights, each way, if on time. They wanted to route me via Spokane/Billings/Minneapolis on the way home but I’ve already done that route. The segment from Reno to Vegas seems really intriguing to me.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with Salt Lake Express? Seems like I’ll be riding them SLC-BOI and RNO-LAS.


Salt Lake Express seems good from what I've seen and heard. However, they've expanded very rapidly. The SLC<>BOI segment is because Greyhound Lines has reverted to the concept of dividing up long haul routes into segments, keeping through schedules, but parceling out segments to independents. So, what was the through DEN<>PDX run is now GL DEN<>SLC, Salt Lake Express for the middle part of the route, and then GL for BOI<>PDX. For some reason, it does not show in their on-line booking, sending everyone via Spokane and Billings.


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## TheVig (Monday at 5:41 PM)

Couple of years ago or so, I saw a posting looking for drivers. Greyhound was offering a whole whopping $22.50 an hour. 

No wonder they have had a nagging issue of driver shortages.

I’ve seen terminal jobs for way less than $15 an hour. Unless of course local minimum wage laws dictate otherwise. 

For grins and giggles I’ve taken Peter Pan between Philly and NYC a few times. Decent drivers and staff have been my experience. Good pricing, and my fellow riders all looked like functioning members of society. 

My home base of Charlotte has a fairly active Greyhound terminal. TV news worthy fights have been minimal in recent years.


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