# Greyhound Canada to cease operations



## jiml (May 13, 2021)

Canadian Press NewsAlert: Greyhound Canada to cut all routes, end operations


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## Willbridge (May 13, 2021)

jiml said:


> Canadian Press NewsAlert: Greyhound Canada to cut all routes, end operations


I received an e-mail on the CP article and was (bitterly) amused to see it saying "Greyhound Canada is permanently cutting all bus routes across the country..."
in reference to its residual lines in Ontario and Quebec. I understand what they meant but it reflects a certain point of view.

I've developed a theory that started with discoveries made in the Oregon Intercity Bus Study (1975). It states that traditional intercity bus service of the type run by Greyhound has one generation to live after the discontinuance of paralleled rail service*. It's a generalization that can be negatively affected by major external events such as the 55 mph speed limit, WWII, a pandemic, and positively affected by regional growth, undocumented immigrants, WWII, etc. After that generation, the service either must be completely restructured or subsidized or both. Or, abandoned.

It's harder to pin down when the rail service is drastically cut but continues as an irrelevant tourist attraction (not that tourist attractions don't have their own place in regional economies). But testing the theory, what happened with VIA Rail service in 1991 -- 1999? Or did economic growth in Central Canada delay the inevitable?

* A generation = 22 to 30 years.

In honor of Greyhound history, I'm attaching a photo from when they were expanding by buying up smaller lines. The second-hand bus was on the hourly Edmonton<>Calgary express run.


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## jiml (May 13, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I received an e-mail on the CP article and was (bitterly) amused to see it saying "Greyhound Canada is permanently cutting all bus routes across the country..."
> in reference to its residual lines in Ontario and Quebec. I understand what they meant but it reflects a certain point of view.
> 
> I've developed a theory that started with discoveries made in the Oregon Intercity Bus Study (1975). It states that traditional intercity bus service of the type run by Greyhound has one generation to live after the discontinuance of paralleled rail service*. It's a generalization that can be negatively affected by major external events such as the 55 mph speed limit, WWII, a pandemic, and positively affected by regional growth, undocumented immigrants, WWII, etc. After that generation, the service either must be completely restructured or subsidized or both. Or, abandoned.
> ...


That's a really fascinating analysis.


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## Mailliw (May 13, 2021)

Greyhound Canada is ending all of it's domestic routes this summer. Is there any possible chance VIA might be able to step in and expand service outside the Corridor?


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## jiml (May 13, 2021)

Your question has several layers to consider so there's no easy solution, but the article you've linked has an interesting omission - the Amtrak Thruway bus replacement that has travelled between Chicago and Toronto since the cancellation of the International, operated by Greyhound. I am hoping it's an oversight. 

At the risk of attracting the usual apologists, I wouldn't bet my next paycheck on VIA stepping into the void.


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## Bob Dylan (May 13, 2021)

jiml said:


> Your question has several layers to consider so there's no easy solution, but the article you've linked has an interesting omission - the Amtrak Thruway bus replacement that has travelled between Chicago and Toronto since the cancellation of the International, operated by Greyhound. I am hoping it's an oversight.
> 
> At the risk of attracting the usual apologists, I wouldn't bet my next paycheck on VIA stepping into the void.


Looking more and more like the only way for me to get to/from Ontario is going to be by Airplane directly to Pearson,, Automobile or Go Train from Niagara Falls to Oakville!


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## jiml (May 13, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Looking more and more like the only way for me to get to/from Ontario is going to be by Airplane directly to Pearson,, Automobile or Go Train from Niagara Falls to Oakville!


Just let me know when you're heading this way.


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## Bob Dylan (May 13, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just let me know when you're heading this way.


Looks like itll be 2022 before I can come back to the Great White North!


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## railiner (May 13, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I received an e-mail on the CP article and was (bitterly) amused to see it saying "Greyhound Canada is permanently cutting all bus routes across the country..."
> in reference to its residual lines in Ontario and Quebec. I understand what they meant but it reflects a certain point of view.
> 
> I've developed a theory that started with discoveries made in the Oregon Intercity Bus Study (1975). It states that traditional intercity bus service of the type run by Greyhound has one generation to live after the discontinuance of paralleled rail service*. It's a generalization that can be negatively affected by major external events such as the 55 mph speed limit, WWII, a pandemic, and positively affected by regional growth, undocumented immigrants, WWII, etc. After that generation, the service either must be completely restructured or subsidized or both. Or, abandoned.
> ...


Coachways was not so small...its routes extended all the way from Calgary to Fairbanks, at one time. I rode them from Edmonton to Fairbanks in 1970.


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## jebr (May 13, 2021)

jiml said:


> Your question has several layers to consider so there's no easy solution, but the article you've linked has an interesting omission - the Amtrak Thruway bus replacement that has travelled between Chicago and Toronto since the cancellation of the International, operated by Greyhound. I am hoping it's an oversight.



I think that's run by Greyhound USA - so that and the few other cross-border services may still operate when the border reopens.


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## Willbridge (May 13, 2021)

railiner said:


> Coachways was not so small...its routes extended all the way from Calgary to Fairbanks, at one time. I rode them from Edmonton to Fairbanks in 1970.


I used to wonder who rode Coachways Ltd and Alaskan Coachways between Edmonton and Fairbanks! If I recall correctly the travel time was about the same as Edmonton to New York City. Most of their other routes were replications of CPR and CNR branch lines.


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## Willbridge (May 14, 2021)

What often happens in cases like the demise of GLC is that someone steps in and claims to take it off the government's hands but only restores the most productive service or the parts that fit with their existing system. Ironically, that's what GL did when it took over Continental Trailways and Pacific Trailways.

This carrier, originally set up to replace Saskatchewan Transportation Company, is promising to replace GLC in Ontario and Quebec.

Rider Express


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## Willbridge (May 14, 2021)

jiml said:


> That's a really fascinating analysis.


I wish someone would prove that it's wrong. In the 1975 study we looked back to the beginning of intercity bus service in Oregon, even a bit into the stagecoaches that preceded them. A lot of the bus routes were set up by the railways to replace money-losing branch and local main line trains.

We hypothesized as to what caused the one-generation phenomenon but never formalized it because of a change in administration. When I lived in Alberta I began to see the same thing. Then I moved to Colorado and it was like going to a movie that I had seen before. (The reason for the timing is that Oregon was ahead on its paved highway program and then its interstate highway construction, so it developed the consequent problems sooner.)

There is an urban transit parallel, although colored by more intense politics. It was rarer in Canada due to so many streetcar systems already being owned by governments or electric utilities. In the U.S., however, the interval between the end of streetcar service and the collapse of the replacement privately-owned bus company was about a generation.

There are long-term ironies in this story. Trudeau pere was in charge for the 1977-1981 rail cutback. Trudeau fils is in charge now. And I can't recall a train-off case where the availability of competing bus service wasn't cited as a justification.


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## railiner (May 14, 2021)

jebr said:


> I think that's run by Greyhound USA - so that and the few other cross-border services may still operate when the border reopens.


Chicago<>Detroit is Greyhound Lines, Inc. (USA). Detroit<>Toronto was GLC. They pooled for through service. At one time, they also ran thru service all the way from Chicago to Montreal, Toronto<>Montreal link operated by Voyageur Colonial, which GLC later acquired...


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Greyhound Canada is ending all of it's domestic routes this summer. Is there any possible chance VIA might be able to step in and expand service outside the Corridor?



What was left of Greyhound Canada was already closely paralleled by VIA in the corridor including Toronto-London-Windsor in southwestern Ontario along with Toronto-Ottawa and Ottawa-Montreal...but the main Toronto-Montreal route through Kingston is Mega-Bus. 

Greyhound does not run east of Montreal.....that's Orleans Express and Maritime Bus in NB, NS and PEI.

Greyhound's Transcontinental routes were discontinued a couple of years ago and Ontario Northland can get you to Winnipeg now.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

railiner said:


> Coachways was not so small...its routes extended all the way from Calgary to Fairbanks, at one time. I rode them from Edmonton to Fairbanks in 1970.




Here ya go.....from October 1978:


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## jiml (May 14, 2021)

jebr said:


> I think that's run by Greyhound USA - so that and the few other cross-border services may still operate when the border reopens.


That's what I thought too, but it was not mentioned in the list of only five trans-border routes in the article linked in Post #4 - hence my comment.


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## jiml (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Ontario Northland can get you to Winnipeg now.


Ontario Northland still maintains some really diverse bus routes, including a connection with VIA in Ottawa and alternating north and south routes between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg, with the latter reaching Fort Frances, ON/International Falls, MN. They're obviously heavily subsidized, but generally well-regarded. I have a friend who has done some consulting work for them, although mostly on the rail side.


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## Exvalley (May 14, 2021)

At least pre-Covid, Quebec seemed to have pretty decent non-Greyhound coverage with several regional companies.


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## jiml (May 14, 2021)

Megabus has introduced service between Toronto and Ottawa, partially filling the void:









Megabus coming to Ottawa following Greyhound shutdown


The new Megabus service will offer routes to and from Ottawa for four days a week starting May 20.



ottawa.ctvnews.ca


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

I took Megabus overnight between Montreal and Toronto a couple of years ago (I certainly would have been on VIA's _Enterprise_ if it had still been running) It was a double-decker bus and not to busy. I had a double seat to myself and overall...not a bad ride!


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## Bob Dylan (May 15, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> I took Megabus overnight between Montreal and Toronto a couple of years ago (I certainly would have been on VIA's _Enterprise_ if it had still been running) It was a double-decker bus and not to busy. I had a double seat to myself and overall...not a bad ride!


I miss the Enterprise too, it was my favorite Corridor Train!

I've only been on Mega Bus once, Austin to the DFW Metroplex, I had one of the $5 Tickets, and the ride was as good as Greyhound or any of the Mexican Buses that use I35 on this route.


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## railiner (May 15, 2021)

When I rode the overnight Corridor train, I believe it was called The Cavalier...

As for Megabus, I strongly dislike their Van Hool double deckers. They have low headroom (5' 9") on both levels, and they ride rather hard, as compared to Prevost and MCI coaches....


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

Both names were used and I believe it ran with only a number for awhile.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> When I rode the overnight Corridor train, I believe it was called The Cavalier...




The overnight Cavalier between Toronto and Montreal was launched by CN at the end of the CN/CP Pool Train agreement in October 1965.






__





The End of the Pool Agreement


50 years ago this week.....October 31, 1965.....the Pool Train Agreement between Canadian National and Canadian Pacific ended. Although not specifically VIA.....it did lead to the establishment of what form the main Corridor routes today. Passenger train schedules and equipment between...




www.amtraktrains.com






The overnight Toronto-Ottawa train was the Capital and it was eventually combined with the Cavalier (cars were dropped at Brockville to run to Ottawa)

The Cavalier was discontinued with the big VIA cuts in January 1990.....then restarted again 10 years later in January 2000 as the new 'Enterprise' and lasted until 2005.


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## sttom (Aug 20, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I wish someone would prove that it's wrong. In the 1975 study we looked back to the beginning of intercity bus service in Oregon, even a bit into the stagecoaches that preceded them. A lot of the bus routes were set up by the railways to replace money-losing branch and local main line trains.
> 
> We hypothesized as to what caused the one-generation phenomenon but never formalized it because of a change in administration. When I lived in Alberta I began to see the same thing. Then I moved to Colorado and it was like going to a movie that I had seen before. (The reason for the timing is that Oregon was ahead on its paved highway program and then its interstate highway construction, so it developed the consequent problems sooner.)
> 
> ...


I know this is a bit late, but is there anywhere I could find a PDF of the study? I would be very interested in reading it if I could and have had trouble finding anything related to it on my own.


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## Willbridge (Aug 22, 2021)

sttom said:


> I know this is a bit late, but is there anywhere I could find a PDF of the study? I would be very interested in reading it if I could and have had trouble finding anything related to it on my own.


I have an extra copy of the many-page report and I was wondering what to do with it. If you want to send me a postal address I'll mail it to you. That would be easier than pulling it apart to scan it. If you don't want to use Amtrak Unlimited's correspondence feature you could send me a note in the Comments feature of my Wordpress website and I'll intercept it in the spam checking: www.berlin1969.com .


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## neroden (Aug 22, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I have an extra copy of the many-page report and I was wondering what to do with it. If you want to send me a postal address I'll mail it to you. That would be easier than pulling it apart to scan it. If you don't want to use Amtrak Unlimited's correspondence feature you could send me a note in the Comments feature of my Wordpress website and I'll intercept it in the spam checking: www.berlin1969.com .


But, um, I kind of want a copy too. Sttom, do you think if you get it you can scan it?


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## sttom (Aug 23, 2021)

neroden said:


> But, um, I kind of want a copy too. Sttom, do you think if you get it you can scan it?


If I do yes. I was planning on doing that if I had the honor of caring for the report. I feel like it's the least I could do.


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## Willbridge (Aug 23, 2021)

sttom said:


> If I do yes. I was planning on doing that if I had the honor of caring for the report. I feel like it's the least I could do.


In the meantime another party offered to scan it. I'll put a notice here when it is ready. It includes timetables for all the significant routes in Oregon, with Greyhound and Trailways schedules merged.


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