# Is the Montrealer coming back or just the Vermonter?



## Fenton

I'm slightly confused, I'm hearing several different things about either the Vermonter or Montrealer routes coming back this year...

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/07/18-amtrak-montrealer

Also from another source on Youtube.

So which is it, or are both of them returning? 

I remember that good overnight ride in the Montrealer. Is it gonna return?


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## Just-Thinking-51

No to both.

Montreal is now in final design planning for the new custom pre-clearance. With a schedule build date of 2021.

No planned overnight service by anyone, other than the railfan community.

With a small chance of the Vermonter returning to Montreal some day.


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## Mailliw

If Canada and/or Quebec kicked in some subsidies it would increase the odds of a Montrealer revival. An overnight train to Montreal grom NYC would make it a much more convenient tourist destination for Northeasterners.


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## jiml

Not going to happen anytime soon. Don't know how things are in your part of the world, but governments here are all broke.


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## railiner

I can't see Canada ever subsidizing Amtrak unless Amtrak offers service between two or more Canadian points, which they no longer do, not since the old Niagara Rainbow ceased operating....they don't even help VIA Rail that much....


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## jiml

When things return to "normal" I suspect the only cross-border services will be the Cascades in the short term. If the northwest "bubble" of Washington, Oregon and British Columbia develops as expected the Cascades will be the first, possibly joined by the Adirondack in November or December unless there is a second wave. The Maple Leaf may be a lost cause. When regional transit (GO) ramps back up in the fall they will have 4 daily trains to Niagara Falls, ON - 3 of which could connect to Empire Services. 

As @railiner has pointed out, the Feds aren't exactly "Pro-VIA" outside corridor services at the best of times. This is not the best of times, so they'll be looking for money somewhere and passenger trains are an easy target. As bad as the impending cuts to Amtrak are, expect them to be proportional here and that's going to be a lot more visible on a system that was much smaller to start with.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> When things return to "normal" I suspect the only cross-border services will be the Cascades in the short term. If the northwest "bubble" of Washington, Oregon and British Columbia develops as expected the Cascades will be the first, possibly joined by the Adirondack in November or December unless there is a second wave. The Maple Leaf may be a lost cause. When regional transit (GO) ramps back up in the fall they will have 4 daily trains to Niagara Falls, ON - 3 of which could connect to Empire Services.
> 
> As @railiner has pointed out, the Feds aren't exactly "Pro-VIA" outside corridor services at the best of times. This is not the best of times, so they'll be looking for money somewhere and passenger trains are an easy target. As bad as the impending cuts to Amtrak are, expect them to be proportional here and that's going to be a lot more visible on a system that was much smaller to start with.


Sorry to hear that! I've probably ridden the Maple Leaf 200 times between various NY Cities and Toronto( Oakville).Really liked the Biz Class 2x1 Seating in the Cafe Car.


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Sorry to hear that! I've probably ridden the Maple Leaf 200 times between various NY Cities and Toronto( Oakville).Really liked the Biz Class 2x1 Seating in the Cafe Car.


Only my opinion, reinforced by a call to VIA Rail for a potential fall trip. They told me to check out GO Transit since there were "no plans" to resume VIA service to Niagara Falls. To be very specific, we did not discuss Amtrak or the Maple Leaf by name.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> Only my opinion, reinforced by a call to VIA Rail for a potential fall trip. They told me to check out GO Transit since there were "no plans" to resume VIA service to Niagara Falls. To be very specific, we did not discuss Amtrak or the Maple Leaf by name.


Thanks, as you know the Maple Leaf I'd a Hybrid Train, Amtrak Equipment and Crewed by Amtrak staff NYP- Niagara Fslls,ON.

Then a VIA Train with VIA Crew and Cafe items NIagara Falls to Toronto.

Guess well see next year, hopefully itll return along with the other Daily LD Trains!!!


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## NS VIA Fan

I remember reading that provisions made for a combined customs facility when Amtrak's new Niagara Falls station was built. The new Border agreement (the same one that will permit the new pre-clearance facility in Montreal) would allow Canadian CBSA agents to work in the US at the combined facility. 

Passengers should be getting off the trains at Niagara Falls, NY to clear either US CBP or Canadian CBSA inspections. But once all-day GO service begins.....terminate the Maple Leaf just like any other Empire Service train on the US side and extend GO across the border to interface with Amtrak. With some tweaking of schedules there probably could be a couple of services offered each way per day with a change of trains in Niagara Falls NY.

I realize the platforms at NF NY are high level and GO cars are low.....but certainly not an insurmountable issue.

VIA should not be in the Niagara Falls market once all-day GO service begins. At 89 miles it's already commuter territory!


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## jiml

I definitely get the feeling that if the Maple Leaf were to resume it would look a lot more like the Adirondack - a solely Amtrak train that runs non-stop on the Canadian side to its final destination. However, with Amtrak already proposing extensive cuts to the rest of their system, I don't think it's a high priority for them.


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## Mailliw

The isn't a need for the Maple Leaf if travelers can take a train from NYC to Niagara Falls and transfer to GO to Toronto (or vice-versa). Ideally Empire and GO would terminate at the same station, but it's not absolutely essential.


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## jiml

Right now in the Covid world the GO trips are all buses, but before the shutdown they had 2x-3x trains daily. The morning NF-bound trip was really close to the Maple Leaf, so the writing was on the wall. What was lacking was a Toronto-bound in the evening, but apparently that was in the works. It's definitely flagged as a growth route - especially the intermediate stops which are becoming part of Toronto's never-ending urban sprawl.


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## jis

I am sure that the COVID thing has made everything quite unpredictable regarding US Canada service, at least until the dust settles a bit on COVID in a year or two.

Indeed it has thrown in quite a bit of uncertainty about manyAmtrak routes, not just the ones to Canada.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> Right now in the Covid world the GO trips are all buses, but before the shutdown they had 2x-3x trains daily. The morning NF-bound trip was really close to the Maple Leaf, so the writing was on the wall. What was lacking was a Toronto-bound in the evening, but apparently that was in the works. It's definitely flagged as a growth route - especially the intermediate stops which are becoming part of Toronto's never-ending urban sprawl.


I remember riding the GO Trains between Oakville and Toronto many,many times as a tourist,and the Trains were always crowded!


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## Woodcut60

Bob Dylan said:


> Sorry to hear that! I've probably ridden the Maple Leaf 200 times between various NY Cities and Toronto( Oakville).Really liked the Biz Class 2x1 Seating in the Cafe Car.


Did you really do that? 200 times! If you don't mind asking me, but was that for work i.e. business trips, or vacation?


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## Bob Dylan

Woodcut60 said:


> Did you really do that? 200 times! If you don't mind asking me, but was that for work i.e. business trips, or vacation?


Combination of both! I worked in the NE and my In Laws lived in Oakville,ON( Canada) and Ottawa.

When my late wife passed away( her ashes are in Oakville), I continued to visit thru the years ,and after retirement I took a couple of trips a year to Canada on Holiday on Amtrak and VIA.

I was planning to go this August, but of course now I'm hoping for 2021!


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## dogbert617

With GO trains now running frequently between Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto, do you guys think that once Amtrak service gets fully restored everywhere, that Maple Leaf won't run back to Toronto again? I would hope that one could make the Amtrak Maple Leaf to GO train connection within one station, whether that station was Niagara Falls, NY, or Niagara Falls, Ontario. It's too bad that there seem to be only like 1 or 2(in each direction) scheduled Empire Service trains which go all the way west to Niagara Falls, NY, as my memory was looking over that schedule.


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## jiml

In the current Covid world the NF to Toronto trains are buses, although I believe GO is restarting one train in a week or two. (I heard something about it today and should have paid closer attention.)


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## PVD

Normally, it's the ML early, 281 mid morning, and 283 early afternoon...If you are going as far as Depew and don't need BFX or NFL, the LSL leaves later in the afternoon...Lots of trains just to Albany....with EA or the ADK (in normal times) continuing to points North.


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## sttom

dogbert617 said:


> With GO trains now running frequently between Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto, do you guys think that once Amtrak service gets fully restored everywhere, that Maple Leaf won't run back to Toronto again? I would hope that one could make the Amtrak Maple Leaf to GO train connection within one station, whether that station was Niagara Falls, NY, or Niagara Falls, Ontario. It's too bad that there seem to be only like 1 or 2(in each direction) scheduled Empire Service trains which go all the way west to Niagara Falls, NY, as my memory was looking over that schedule.


I think it will when the current crisis settles down. If anything, more frequent GO Transit service would justify a non stop run into Toronto from the border. The problem with transfers is that they hurt ridership. And if I were a tourist and I had to switch from an Amtrak train to a commuter train, I personally wouldn't take the train. Having to put up with a mid trip customs check is painful enough, making me ride a commuter train the rest of the way is a slap in the face.


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## Mailliw

Hmm, if the Maple Leaf could run without stopping from the border to Toronto then a preclearance facility could be opened up st Toronto Union which could make a night train feasable.


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## dogbert617

sttom said:


> I think it will when the current crisis settles down. If anything, more frequent GO Transit service would justify a non stop run into Toronto from the border. The problem with transfers is that they hurt ridership. And if I were a tourist and I had to switch from an Amtrak train to a commuter train, I personally wouldn't take the train. Having to put up with a mid trip customs check is painful enough, making me ride a commuter train the rest of the way is a slap in the face.



I'd be okay if Amtrak chose to cut the scheduled stops inbetween Niagara Falls, ON and Toronto myself, and make the Maple Leaf run express between those 2 stations. Since as we all know, people could transfer to a GO commuter train for service to Hamilton, Oakville, Mississauga, etc.


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## jiml

There's been a few key moments in the recent history of the Maple Leaf on the Canadian side. VIA used to have two trains on this route as recently as 10 years ago, as shown in this timetable excerpt:





There were a number of factors that brought about the demise of the second train, including a fatal derailment in 2012. Low ridership and lack of equipment were also factors at the time. Once the morning and evening "commuter runs" were gone, the only thing left was their participation in the Maple Leaf operation. GO was rapidly expanding and was expected to step into the void a lot sooner than they have. Niagara Falls was not the priority however, but rather the intermediate stations of St. Catherines and Grimsby, which were developing into bedroom communities for Toronto. Service started up on weekends only with support of the Niagara Parks Commission - an odd move for a service dependent on commuters, but again this is when GO had "spare" equipment available. The train was somewhat of a success and expanded to daily in 2019, where it became quite popular. Before Covid service had expanded to 2-3 trains daily (varied) with plans for a 4th. All but one were extensions of Hamilton trains that ran express to/from Toronto during rush hours. (I won't go into more detail here, but GO served two stations in Hamilton on different routes meaning not all trains could continue to Niagara Falls.)

A major bridge project truncated the Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls, NY, for several months last year. This gave all involved a chance to assess other options for Toronto connections.

While all this was happening at VIA and GO, the decade-long reconstruction project continued at Union Station. At one time a US Customs preclearance facility was proposed, but like Montreal's it faced monetary issues. One problem was solved when the Union-Pearson express train was up and running, since US officers could easily attend only when needed. This went quiet for a long time, but I believe the final nail in its coffin was the election of the current provincial government. Part of their platform was beefed-up rail service in Southwestern Ontario, including trains to Detroit. Formalities for these would be done in Windsor, ON. That left too many "ifs" for a once-a-day train to Niagara Falls that would have to run non-stop in Canada to be practical. I understand the space originally allocated has been used for other purposes.

As Stage 2 of reopening spreads here, GO has announced major restoration of services and train lengths to meet demand, including one frequency to Niagara Falls, with more details to come. Like most places in the US, who knows whether demand will reach previous levels? Couple that with a border some think may remain closed until year-end and the future of the Maple Leaf as we know it or a replacement commuter service are anyone's guess.


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## PVD

Out of curiosity, what is the passenger load crossing the border and continuing on? Is the existing setup, with VIA taking the train after the border, with the change in crew, cafe stock swap, and revenue/ticket sharing worth it for Amtrak and/or Via? It is always sad to talk about giving something up we have, but is it really viable? I don't know the passenger counts, I've never ridden past BFX on the Leaf.


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## jiml

I have wondered the same thing. I'm not sure O&D numbers exist for that train. While I have certainly ridden the train between Toronto and New York several times, I'm not sure why any sane person would do it. You can drive it in 2/3 of the time and fly in just over an hour. It's hard to determine how many people actually cross the border and how far they go on either side. I'm sure Amtrak has numbers for the US-only ridership and VIA has theirs for the local service they treat it as.


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## sttom

Other than equipment shortages, the Maple Leaf is also a good route to make into an overnight route. Off topic, but it would make more sense than a day time train, at least for end to end travel.


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## jiml

sttom said:


> Other than equipment shortages, the Maple Leaf is also a good route to make into an overnight route. Off topic, but it would make more sense than a day time train, at least for end to end travel.


Amtrak figured this out briefly, as documented by one of the historians here not that long ago. A rendition of the Niagara Rainbow was a sleeper out of Toronto to New York. Without looking it up I think it was a slumber-coach and single coach leaving Toronto late on weekends. If timed correctly nowadays it could be connected to the eastbound LSL and detached on the return. That may have been the previous concept - not sure.


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## PVD

Right now the Leaf is the early AM NYP to points past Albany.. If they changed it to overnight, they would need to add an early train. I'm pretty sure NYSDOT mostly pays for it, they would need to buy in, adding the AM train and continuing to pay for the Leaf means spending more money, NYS would have to agree as well as VIA.


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## Barb Stout

jiml said:


> I have wondered the same thing. I'm not sure O&D numbers exist for that train. While I have certainly ridden the train between Toronto and New York several times, I'm not sure why any sane person would do it. You can drive it in 2/3 of the time and fly in just over an hour. It's hard to determine how many people actually cross the border and how far they go on either side. I'm sure Amtrak has numbers for the US-only ridership and VIA has theirs for the local service they treat it as.


Is the scenery on the route pretty? If I lived over there, that would be a reason for me to take it over flying and driving.


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## the_traveler

Much of the route from SYR to ALB is right along the shore of the Mohawk River, and then much of the route from ALB to NYP is right along the shore of the Hudson River!


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## NS VIA Fan

Barb Stout said:


> Is the scenery on the route pretty? If I lived over there, that would be a reason for me to take it over flying and driving.



When you cross the Niagara River.......you can see the mist but not the Falls a mile or so away. 

It's 89 miles from Niagara Falls to Toronto and mainly an urban landscape although you do pass through orchards in the Grimsby area.


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## toddinde

jiml said:


> Not going to happen anytime soon. Don't know how things are in your part of the world, but governments here are all broke.


Trillions in tax cuts for big corporations, millionaires and defense doesn't support the poverty narrative. Dick Cheney was right; deficits don't matter. Growing GDP diminishes the importance of the debt. The Amtrak subsidy is hardly a rounding error in the federal budget. There is plenty of money to expand rail, and it will come.


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## Woodcut60

Bob Dylan said:


> Combination of both! I worked in the NE and my In Laws lived in Oakville,ON( Canada) and Ottawa.
> 
> When my late wife passed away( her ashes are in Oakville), I continued to visit thru the years ,and after retirement I took a couple of trips a year to Canada on Holiday on Amtrak and VIA.
> 
> I was planning to go this August, but of course now I'm hoping for 2021!


I'm sorry to hear that, that you can't visit now due to Covid-19. We're all hoping for 2021!


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## jiml

While necessary, the border closing remains sad. I have a lot of friends in the US - at least one who really needs a visit. On a clear day I can see NYS from my deck and we're running low on stuff we usually buy there. I'll be glad when things get back to normal.


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## PVD

My friends in Plattsburgh miss their Canadian regulars, too.


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## the_traveler

Why is it “really” necessary? Do the germs in the air stop at the border, because the border is closed? Or do they go thru Customs?


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## PVD

The border is not closed, it is open for commerce and trade, and a bunch of other categories. It is closed for leisure, recreation, and that sort of thing.


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## jiml

the_traveler said:


> Why is it “really” necessary? Do the germs in the air stop at the border, because the border is closed? Or do they go thru Customs?


If one accepts the position that the germs can only travel 6 feet, then yes.


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## MARC Rider

sttom said:


> Other than equipment shortages, the Maple Leaf is also a good route to make into an overnight route. Off topic, but it would make more sense than a day time train, at least for end to end travel.


From reviewing my timetable collection, it seems that at the end of the Penn Central era (1971), the NYP - Toronto service was an overnight train.


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## jiml

MARC Rider said:


> From reviewing my timetable collection, it seems that at the end of the Penn Central era (1971), the NYP - Toronto service was an overnight train.


Amtrak briefly tried an overnight train on the route as well, reviving the oft-used _Niagara Rainbow_ name. Details were given in a couple of other threads here in the past.



The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## NS VIA Fan

The original overnight train......the _Ontarian_ was gone by 1970 and replaced by a daytime run.....a year before Amtrak.

After Amtrak took over Penn Central's other Intercity passenger trains this was an anomaly......a Penn Central train that didn’t make it into Amtrak but continued to operate: It was jointly operated by PC-TH&B-CP Rail between Buffalo and Toronto. At Buffalo an across-the-platform connection was made with Empire Service trains.

The train used CP RDC _Dayliners_ but operated with Penn Central crews on Penn Central track between Buffalo and Welland, Ontario. (PC and later Conrail crews alternated with TH&B crews)

Amtrak timetables showed it as a Penn Central and later a Conrail train. After VIA assumed operation of the CP-TH&B portion, it was shown as a Conrail train to Welland and a VIA train beyond.

The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)

The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)

The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)

Eventually this train became the jointly operated Amtrak-VIA _Maple Leaf_ between New York and Toronto but now operating on CN via Niagara Falls in April 1981.

And a couple of CP Rail timetables from that era:


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## me_little_me

the_traveler said:


> Why is it “really” necessary? Do the germs in the air stop at the border, because the border is closed? Or do they go thru Customs?


No but people carry them through.


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## Mailliw

True High-speed rail between NYC and Montreal isn't on table, but what about higher-speed conventional rail with diesel-electrics or dual modes? Would it be feasible to (assuming preclearance at Gare Centrale) get travel times down to the 5-6 hour range? That would be faster than bus and competitive with driving time. It'd also allow twice daily service not just to Montreal but to everywhere north of Albany. As much as I like the idea of a night train this could be even more practical.


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> True High-speed rail between NYC and Montreal isn't on table, but what about higher-speed conventional rail with diesel-electrics or dual modes? Would it be feasible to (assuming preclearance at Gare Centrale) get travel times down to the 5-6 hour range? That would be faster than bus and competitive with driving time. It'd also allow twice daily service not just to Montreal but to everywhere north of Albany. As much as I like the idea of a night train this could be even more practical.


Current Amtrak trains take an average of 2.5 hours to cover the 141 miles between New York and Albany at decent median speed. Montreal is 240 miles from Albany on less-travelled, and therefore lower speed, trackage. Other than moving both border formalities to Montreal as you suggest, I don't see where further improvements could be made without significant investment in infrastructure.


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## the_traveler

Also, the speeds are slower since on one side is the Adirondack Mountains and on the other side is Lake Champlain. The rails basically follow the shoreline of the Lake because much of the way the mountains continue right to the Lake.


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## asherman93

So, first time poster on this site, but based on what I've skimmed here, am I correct to assume the Maple Leaf and Adirondack might not be around much longer? And that by extension, I should take the opportunity to ride these trains ASAP?


jiml said:


> The Maple Leaf may be a lost cause.


Because I got bitten by the train bug recently.


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## jiml

You should be okay with the Adirondack. Once the border re-opens it should resume. The Maple Leaf is less likely, however there should be the ability to cross a bridge at Niagara Falls, NY, and re-board another train to continue your trip. No one really knows what's going to happen when things "get back to normal". The Adirondack is by far the more scenic trip.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> You should be okay with the Adirondack. Once the border re-opens it should resume. The Maple Leaf is less likely, however there should be the ability to cross a bridge at Niagara Falls, NY, and re-board another train to continue your trip. No one really knows what's going to happen when things "get back to normal". The Adirondack is by far the more scenic trip.


I'll miss the Maple Leaf, made many a trip between New York State and Oakville,ON, where my in-laws live and my Late Wife's ashes are.

I Loved riding the Adirondack up to Montreal from NYP, especially when the Great Dome was in the consist between Albany and Montreal.


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> I'll miss the Maple Leaf, made many a trip between New York State and Oakville,ON


No one knows the exact status of the Maple Leaf - especially under the current circumstances. Every indication is that GO (Government of Ontario) Transit will provide service on a schedule remarkably similar to that of the Maple Leaf between Niagara Falls and Toronto whenever things get back to normal. A call to VIA Rail will only reveal that VIA "does not provide service between Niagara Falls and Toronto". As the eternal optimist I would like to think that means that Amtrak will run non-stop in Canada.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> No one knows the exact status of the Maple Leaf - especially under the current circumstances. Every indication is that GO (Government of Ontario) Transit will provide service on a schedule remarkably similar to that of the Maple Leaf between Niagara Falls and Toronto whenever things get back to normal. A call to VIA Rail will only reveal that VIA "does not provide service between Niagara Falls and Toronto". As the eternal optimist I would like to think that means that Amtrak will run non-stop in Canada.


Let's hope! Riding in the BC Car on the Maple Leaf( although technically it's a VIA Train and not BC as VIA defined it) between Niagara Falls,ON and Oakville( Toronto) is much better than switching to a Go Train or Bus @ the Border!


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Let's hope! Riding in the BC Car on the Maple Leaf between Niagara Falls,ON and Oakville( Toronto) is much better than switching to a Go Train or Bus @ the Border!


You're not wrong, but I have very mixed experience with Business Class on the Canadian side - like when they load all the US-bound passengers into one coach until you reach the border and you can claim your paid BC seat on the other side. I still have the letter from VIA stating they don't offer Business Class on this train.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> You're not wrong, but I have very mixed experience with Business Class on the Canadian side - like when they load all the US-bound passengers into one coach until you reach the border and you can claim your paid BC seat on the other side. I still have the letter from VIA stating they don't offer Business Class on this train.


I always had a BC ticket bought through Amtrak, not VIA, and stayed in my BC Seat in the Cafe( they used to do Customs and Immigration on the Train, now you have to get off)going, and when I boarded in either Oakville or Toronto, same thing, even though as you say,technically VIA didnt offer BC on this Train in Canada.( it was the Best Deal going, $1 between Oakville or Toronto and the Border)


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