# Desert Express Victorville to Vegas



## mj_2341

About the Desert Express, is there any firm update on the project? Is it REALLY going to start construction in March of this year (2010?)

Is this really going to happen, or what?

(Of course, I am in FULL support of it!)

http://www.desertxpress.com


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## DowneasterPassenger

mj_2341 said:


> About the Desert Express, is there any firm update on the project? Is it REALLY going to start construction in March of this year (2010?)
> Is this really going to happen, or what?
> 
> (Of course, I am in FULL support of it!)
> 
> http://www.desertxpress.com



I had several hours to contemplate High Speed Rail to Vegas yesterday, _while I was riding the Amtrak Thruway bus to Las Vegas on I-15_.

Before we get HSR, DesertXPress, or Maglev or whatever, just, please, Amtrak, get a train running again on the tracks already there!


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## GG-1

SanJoaquinRider said:


> mj_2341 said:
> 
> 
> 
> About the Desert Express, is there any firm update on the project? Is it REALLY going to start construction in March of this year (2010?)
> Is this really going to happen, or what?
> 
> (Of course, I am in FULL support of it!)
> 
> http://www.desertxpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had several hours to contemplate High Speed Rail to Vegas yesterday, _while I was riding the Amtrak Thruway bus to Las Vegas on I-15_.
> 
> Before we get HSR, DesertXPress, or Maglev or whatever, just, please, Amtrak, get a train running again on the tracks already there!
Click to expand...

Aloha

I we constuucted a pole that let people vote their choice I expect the Desert Wind would lead as that could start the fastest, the the Higher sooe choiced being next

If somebody realy wanted Amtrak operating, Amtrak could be operating in a weeks time.


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## Rob_C

As long as Indian gaming has a powerful lobby in California, there is just no way the state is going to get behind a new Desert Wind. That's why the private Desert Xpress is the closest we've come so far, and true HSR is the only other contender with Federal Funds. Anything quick and state supported will get killed in committee before it can even reach the floor.

It's just politics. If I ran a casino outside of San Diego or Palm Springs I sure wouldn't want to make it easier for people to go gamble in Vegas. Not when my casino is pumping so much money back into California's economy. And you can bet our state legislators don't want to upset one of the state's biggest taxpayers and campaign financiers!


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## MikefromCrete

At a meeting sponsored by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association in Chicago last year, a representative of the California high speed program said that because of heavy lobbying by the Indian casinos in California, the California high speed rail project would never plan or operate a line to Las Vegas.


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## leemell

MikefromCrete said:


> At a meeting sponsored by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association in Chicago last year, a representative of the California high speed program said that because of heavy lobbying by the Indian casinos in California, the California high speed rail project would never plan or operate a line to Las Vegas.


That may be, but they have signed an agreement to cooperate with DX to connect the spur from Victorville to Palmdale.


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## gswager

leemell said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> At a meeting sponsored by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association in Chicago last year, a representative of the California high speed program said that because of heavy lobbying by the Indian casinos in California, the California high speed rail project would never plan or operate a line to Las Vegas.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be, but they have signed an agreement to cooperate with DX to connect the spur from Victorville to Palmdale.
Click to expand...

A train to nowhere? (A bridge to nowhere in Alaska)


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## DET63

gswager said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> At a meeting sponsored by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association in Chicago last year, a representative of the California high speed program said that because of heavy lobbying by the Indian casinos in California, the California high speed rail project would never plan or operate a line to Las Vegas.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be, but they have signed an agreement to cooperate with DX to connect the spur from Victorville to Palmdale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A train to nowhere? (A bridge to nowhere in Alaska)
Click to expand...

Now, now. Who's calling Victorville and Palmdale "Nowhere"?


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## leemell

gswager said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> At a meeting sponsored by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association in Chicago last year, a representative of the California high speed program said that because of heavy lobbying by the Indian casinos in California, the California high speed rail project would never plan or operate a line to Las Vegas.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be, but they have signed an agreement to cooperate with DX to connect the spur from Victorville to Palmdale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A train to nowhere? (A bridge to nowhere in Alaska)
Click to expand...

Just in case you are not being sarcastic <_< the CA HSR will stop at Palmdale and Metrolink already does.


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## gswager

That's doable as long as the Palmdale Line will meet the arrival/departure schedule of HSR Desert Express.


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## leemell

gswager said:


> That's doable as long as the Palmdale Line will meet the arrival/departure schedule of HSR Desert Express.


I believe that was part of the agreement.


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## Rumpled

I live in OC and that arrangement just doesn't work.

Vegas>Palmdale DX

Palmdale>LAUS Metrolink

LAUS>Irvine Metrolink or Amtrak

What worked great was getting on Amtrak in Santa Ana and getting to Vegas.


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## The Davy Crockett

Without getting into pro and con debate, or knowing where the funding is allegedly coming from, The DesertXpress has updated their website. It is pretty smooth on the surface anyway: http://www.desertxpress.com


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## George Harris

Rumpled said:


> I live in OC and that arrangement just doesn't work.
> 
> Vegas>Palmdale DX
> 
> Palmdale>LAUS Metrolink
> 
> LAUS>Irvine Metrolink or Amtrak
> 
> What worked great was getting on Amtrak in Santa Ana and getting to Vegas.


Yes, I know this is a year old. However: *Palmdale<->LAUS* does make sense one the California High Speed Railroad is built. Current Metrolink time is 2 hours flat for about 67 miles. Calif HSR time and distance both will be much less. (Maybe about 30 minutes? I do not really know.) The HSR will go through mountains that the Metrolink track goes around, and will be running with near triple the current maximum speed of Metrolink.


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## Green Maned Lion

George Harris said:


> Rumpled said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in OC and that arrangement just doesn't work.
> 
> Vegas>Palmdale DX
> 
> Palmdale>LAUS Metrolink
> 
> LAUS>Irvine Metrolink or Amtrak
> 
> What worked great was getting on Amtrak in Santa Ana and getting to Vegas.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know this is a year old. However: *Palmdale<->LAUS* does make sense one the California High Speed Railroad is built. Current Metrolink time is 2 hours flat for about 67 miles. Calif HSR time and distance both will be much less. (Maybe about 30 minutes? I do not really know.) The HSR will go through mountains that the Metrolink track goes around, and will be running with near triple the current maximum speed of Metrolink.
Click to expand...

I know they bandy about 220 mph for the Cali system, but what's the real world top speed, excluding a few small segments for bragging rights?


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## Train2104

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know they bandy about 220 mph for the Cali system, but what's the real world top speed, excluding a few small segments for bragging rights?


Almost definitely higher than the Acela's 150, maybe even 190.


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## afigg

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know this is a year old. However: *Palmdale<->LAUS* does make sense one the California High Speed Railroad is built. Current Metrolink time is 2 hours flat for about 67 miles. Calif HSR time and distance both will be much less. (Maybe about 30 minutes? I do not really know.) The HSR will go through mountains that the Metrolink track goes around, and will be running with near triple the current maximum speed of Metrolink.
> 
> 
> 
> I know they bandy about 220 mph for the Cali system, but what's the real world top speed, excluding a few small segments for bragging rights?
Click to expand...

The projected time on the CHSRA website for LA Union Station to Palmdale is 27 minutes, but this is with 2 stops. Of course, until there are detailed engineering plans with the exact route selected, the trip time numbers are ballpark at best other than the LAUS to SF requirement.

But, as for how much of the system will be 220 mph speeds, probably a fair amount. The technical specification documents being drawn up, for those who want to read some of them, can be found at http://www.calhsr.com/resources/technical-docs/. Several of the tunnel documents are interesting because they cover how big the tunnel has to be to keep the air pressure changes to an acceptable level for a 220 mph and even a 250 mph train. The answer is pretty big, BTW. Quoting: "Using the largest train (the Shinkansen Bi-level) for the critical case of tunnel lengths of 0.6 miles to 2.2 miles gives the following results: An increase in speed from 205 mph to 220 mph requires an increase of 1’-6” in tunnel diameter, from 28’-0” to 29’-6” An increase in speed from 220 mph to 250 mph requires an increase of 3’ 6” feet in tunnel diameter, from 29’-6” to 33-0” feet". So scratch the idea of 250 mph trains through the tunnels because of cost, if that was even on the table.

The max speeds from San Francisco to San Jose will be 125 mph. The speeds from Burbank to Anaheim will also presumably be way under 220 mph. But from Sylar to Palmdale to Fresno to San Jose? The CA HSR system will be all new track, with new tunnels and bridges. There will be compromises made between costs and speed, but the advantage of building a new system from scratch means that they should be able to achieve close to max speeds through the mountains, desert, and Central valley. The Northeast corridor did not and does not have that luxury - well, not without spending a huge amount of money.

The requirement is 2:40 from LA Union Station to San Francisco. By putting it down as a hard number, it will give the project managers and engineers leverage to stop people from putting in too many slow the system down compromises.


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## George Harris

Train2104 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know they bandy about 220 mph for the Cali system, but what's the real world top speed, excluding a few small segments for bragging rights?
> 
> 
> 
> Almost definitely higher than the Acela's 150, maybe even 190.
Click to expand...

220 mph.

Look at this document:

www.tiller.net/stuff/hsr/TM%202%201%202%20Alignment%20Design%20Standards%20R0%20090326%20TM%20Excerpt%20A.pdf

pages 2 through 28, which are not posted provide some explanatory material and theoretical background for the standards given.

First paragraph of the Abstract:



> This technical memorandum presents alignment design guidance for the segments of the proposed highspeed rail line in exclusive use operation. On these segments, speeds will be above 125 mph (200 km/h)up to a maximum operating speed of 220 mph (350 km/h) and will consider that faster operation up to not less than 250 mph (400 km/h) in the future will not be unnecessarily precluded. The technical memorandum defines the geometric design requirements for basic design in order to achieve a safe and reliable operating railway that meets regulatory and CHSTP functional; programmatic, operational and performance requirements.


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## Green Maned Lion

So, George, we are really talking about considerable distances over which the trains will be traveling continuously at 220mph and perhaps eventually even greater? I ask because I know you are close to the project and that you generally don't have much puffery on such subjects.


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## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> So, George, we are really talking about considerable distances over which the trains will be traveling continuously at 220mph and perhaps eventually even greater? I ask because I know you are close to the project and that you generally don't have much puffery on such subjects.


Yes. Let's just say that if you look at the references in afigg's post, which is:

www.calhsr.com/resources/technical-docs/

Look at the ones numbered 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.4..2, and 2.4.6 for starts.

This guy has the complete TM's on his site, including the discussion of the development of the standards. As much of the system as practical is built to the full speed standards given in 2.1.2. There are very few points between about Gilroy and about Burbank where 220 mph is not possible. (GML, look at the author on these.) Recognize that a lot of things on this or any other major project have a lot of political drivers involved.


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## GG-1

Aloha from the desert

Right now there is a press conference about the current status of this train, as/if I get anything I will post it. Even if I prefer a return of the Desert Wind.


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## GG-1

Aloha

About all the evening news is saying is the environmental impact statement was approved and now the next phase begins, raising the money.


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## WhoozOn1st

GG-1 said:


> now the next phase begins, raising the money.


Rotsa ruck on THAT.


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## George Harris

Here is the FRA site to find it: www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/freight/1703.shtml

The key paragraph, to me at least is:



> This FEIS is being made available to the public in accordance with the National Environmental Policy Act and will be circulated for a 30-day waiting period commencing on the publication date in the Federal Register, Friday, April 1, 2011. Following this period, the Lead and Cooperating Agencies will individually consider adoption of the FEIS. Subsequent to agency adoption, the Lead and Cooperating Agencies will each issue a Record of Decision on the proposed project. A Record of Decision is a concise public document that formally states the decisions of the federal agencies on the project and identifies the alternatives considered, the Preferred Alternative, and the required mitigation plans and monitoring commitments. The Record of Decision will explain the Agency’s decision on the proposed project and explain factors considered in reaching the decision.


Go below this paragraph and you will find links to a series of pdf files that will give you the FEIS. Since the table of contents and executive summary runs to 55 pages, reading the whole thing would be for the involved and those with lots of time on their hands and a high pain threshold in the area of boredom. A map is on the 15th page of the TOC-Xsum part. A look at it all but screams "connect me to the California HSR at Palmdale.


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## GG-1

George Harris said:


> Here is the FRA site to find it: www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/freight/1703.shtml
> 
> The key paragraph, to me at least is:


Aloha

Mahalo George for pointing out the impact statement and your opinion. It make me a shamed of the media types that I sometimes work with and in particular for all the LV stations news services that reported that it was a done deal except for the needed financing that would become available now that the EIS was approved.

I am sure that you know for sure, but I believe that if certain people got their act, and butt's, in gear a train could run between LA & LV in a month. I am sure that 10 cars 2 engines could give twice a day service as a start, and getting maybe 500 people a day off I-15 would be a tremendous improvement.

I know it it would only save an hour round trip but with an engine on each end could it be push pull (sort of) out of Fullerton and back.


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## GG-1

Aloha

This mornings news stories about the Desert Xpress are including that public comments can be made for 30 days, like George said earlier. I also called the station to ask if they could find out why the Amtrak Desert Wind did not run. No one, in the news departmen,t knew that a train ever ran to Vegas or that there were tracks between here and LA. They promised to do more research. Lets see how they do.


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## George Harris

GG-1 said:


> No one, in the news department, knew that a train ever ran to Vegas or that there were tracks between here and LA. They promised to do more research. Lets see how they do.


:excl: :angry:  hboy: hboy:

Why am I not surprised?


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