# Question on train signals



## Ronnie1a (Jan 8, 2016)

An article in a recent issue of Trains magazine went into some detail on how to read train signals, how they work, and examples of some tragedies when signals were ignored. But it did not answer some obvious questions.

What happens when a signal light burns out or otherwise is not working due to vandalism accident, etc? Does the train stop, keep going?

If a train is doing 80 and gets a red light it takes awhile for it to stop. Wouldn't it zip right past the signal for some distance before it can stop? How far away can the engineer see the average signal?


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## CCC1007 (Jan 8, 2016)

If no aspect is showing then the assumption of failure forces the engineer to assume the signal is showing the most restrictive indication that it can.


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## ehbowen (Jan 8, 2016)

Under normal circumstances a "train doing 80" should never "get a red light"...there should be a yellow "Restricted" aspect a full block before the "Stop" signal, warning the train crew to slow down. Now, it is theoretically possible to construct such a scenario...northbound train doing eighty passes a green signal seconds before a southbound train sees his green aspect drop to a yellow before entering the block...but the southbound train will be slowing to restricted speed, and the northbounder should have at least some warning before seeing the red signal. This, however, is why railroads have dispatchers and timetables; two approaching fast trains should have been made aware of each other's presence and a meet point designated in advance...they shouldn't just blunder upon each other without warning.


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## CCC1007 (Jan 8, 2016)

And around here there is a third less than clear signal indication, advanced approach, or flashing yellow. It means the next signal is yellow, the following signal is currently showing red.


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## Acela150 (Jan 8, 2016)

Ronnie1a said:


> What happens when a signal light burns out or otherwise is not working due to vandalism accident, etc? Does the train stop, keep going?
> 
> If a train is doing 80 and gets a red light it takes awhile for it to stop. Wouldn't it zip right past the signal for some distance before it can stop? How far away can the engineer see the average signal?


Question 1. We treat it as the most restrictive indication. Which would be either a restricting or stop signal. Then we report it to the dispatcher.

Question 2. If a train is proceeding on a Clear Indication at a distant signal and they get to the interlocking and the signal goes to red this is called a drop in the signal. We then stop safely and call the dispatcher. Report the occurrence and proceed according to the rule book. Signal visibility depends on many things, weather, track conditions, i.e. straight track or curved. Type of signal, location of it, and the type of lightbulb. For instance my terminal is in the process of seeing Signal Changes on the trackage rights we cover. One signal you couldn't see until you were around a curve, now that signal is visible before the curve with us being able to see the signal about 1/2 mile or a little more. Another signal was recently moved, the previous signal was high and was easy to see about half a mile before hand. The relocated it to a horrible place we can't see it until we're very close to it. And of course it's displaying stop most of the time. Another signal is visible 1 mile plus once we come around a curve. Every signal is different.


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## SarahZ (Jan 8, 2016)

Signal light burned-out:

I was on an eastbound Wolverine that ended up stopped in Indiana for about two hours. The conductor informed us that a signal "wasn't working properly", so we were stopped and awaiting instructions.

A short time later, he came through the cars to explain that a signal light had burned out and a crew was on their way to change it.

Once the crew changed the bulb and the dispatcher gave the ok, we continued along the track.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2016)

Reading distant signals, on a bright sunny day, is often difficult, That is one reason why having excellent distance vision is a primary requirement of a new-hire engineer.....


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

Acela150 said:


> Ronnie1a said:
> 
> 
> > What happens when a signal light burns out or otherwise is not working due to vandalism accident, etc? Does the train stop, keep going?
> ...


On the NEC there are exceptions to treating it as a restricting or stop signal. On some type signals only one indication is possible. In that case when only one signal is possible that indication governs. Also if all possible indicaions are better than a stop and proceed then the train may proceed at restricting.


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

Ronnie1a said:


> An article in a recent issue of Trains magazine went into some detail on how to read train signals, how they work, and examples of some tragedies when signals were ignored. But it did not answer some obvious questions.
> 
> If a train is doing 80 and gets a red light it takes awhile for it to stop. Wouldn't it zip right past the signal for some distance before it can stop? How far away can the engineer see the average signal?


To put it simply, the enginner is going to know before the stop signall is seen that they must be prepared to stop at that signal. Before they see that signal, previous signals will indicate that they must be prepared to stop at that upcoming signal, and reduce speed approaching that signal in order to stop, if it is a stop signal.


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> Signal light burned-out:
> 
> I was on an eastbound Wolverine that ended up stopped in Indiana for about two hours. The conductor informed us that a signal "wasn't working properly", so we were stopped and awaiting instructions.
> 
> ...


That does not make sense. If it was merely the case of a burned out bulb and the signal had to be taken as a stop signal the dispatcher would be able to give permission to pass the signal.

More likely is that the signal problem was a switch ahead that could not be lined up right or falsely showed to the dispatcher as not being lined right. Or there were other signal problems. So someone had to fix that. Not change the bulb.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 9, 2016)

Sounds like that Conductor just made up a story to pacify restless riders Hal! ( we know you know your stuff!)


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

railiner said:


> Reading distant signals, on a bright sunny day, is often difficult, That is one reason why having excellent distance vision is a primary requirement of a new-hire engineer.....


New hire enginners and current engineers have to have visual acuity that meets FRA requirements. New hires have their vision tested and current enginners have their vision tested every year. It is not only distance vision. It is color vision. They can't be color blind.


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## SarahZ (Jan 9, 2016)

/shrug

I can only report what I was told. If I received the wrong info, that's on Amtrak. I had no way to fact-check it at the time.


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> /shrug
> 
> I can only report what I was told. If I received the wrong info, that's on Amtrak. I had no way to fact-check it at the time.


I believe you that the conductor told you that. I don't believe what he/she told you.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2016)

BTW, those of you that have read the article titled _Reading the Light_ on signals in the _January 2016_ issue of _Trains Magazine_, and are familiar signal rule books, I have been wondering which rule book those signal aspects that and rules that are shown on page 26 come from. After I remove some obvious typographical errors there seems to be significant divergence from the _NORAC _rules that I am familiar with. It identifies something called the "_AAR rule and name_". Is this something in _GCOR_? I honestly don't know and would like to know. Thanks.


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## SarahZ (Jan 9, 2016)

Hal said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > /shrug
> ...


I know. I'm just explaining that I didn't think to question it at the time because it sounded plausible. It never occurred to me to research it when I got home.

I could be remembering it wrong too. I remember him saying, "The crew is going to come change the bulb or whatever it is they have to do," so it could have been another type of malfunction, as you mentioned. He may have been joking around and I simply didn't pick up on it.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 9, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> Hal said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Perhaps "changing the bulb" was an easy way out (explanation-wise) for the conductor. Most of the passengers he talks to really don't have much rail knowledge.


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## SarahZ (Jan 9, 2016)

Agreed.

Most people were just "whatever" about it. That particular conductor is awesome and always keeps us informed of delays, whether due to freight, crossing gates not working, etc.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2016)

Hal said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Reading distant signals, on a bright sunny day, is often difficult, That is one reason why having excellent distance vision is a primary requirement of a new-hire engineer.....
> ...


I agree...its just that at one time, not sure if its still true anymore, but new hire's had to have perfect 20-20 or better, uncorrected vision....As they aged, it was permissible for them to have corrected to perfect vision.


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## Hal (Jan 9, 2016)

railiner said:


> Hal said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...



I don't know when that time was in the US. I don't recall that in my time which goes back a while. I don't know about 40 years ago. So it could have been so at one time. Currently 20/40 is the standard corrected. Hardly perfect. Of course a particular railroad could have more stringent requirements than the FRA requires.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## chakk (Jan 9, 2016)

My latest railfan timetable from Altamont Press lists 19 different signal indications (clear, approach, advance approach, diverging approach, stop, etc.) with anywhere from 2 to 20 aspects (number and orientation of color lights on the signal pole) valid (depending on the railroad) for each signal indication.

I have heard this week Amtrak engineers call out at least five of these signal indications over the radio on my LD train journey across the western USA.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2016)

Does it say which rule book it is basing the stuff it presents in the book on? The same signal indication can sometimes be associated with very different rule.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 10, 2016)

jis said:


> Does it say which rule book it is basing the stuff it presents in the book on? The same signal indication can sometimes be associated with very different rule.


Yes there are different rule books on the various freight lines in the USA.

BUT - the details are -- details.

ALL RED - means - "stop your train NOW, do not pass this signal, call your dispatcher about why, but DO STOP, blocking the MAIN. losing the Company a few megabucks. but STOP NOW"

ANY YELLOW -- means various details , but the the main idea is "PREPARE for a ALL_RED stop"

Various railroads, various names for the red-green-amber combos. like "approach diverging" and "slow approach" or "diverging approach slow"

But the basic "RED=stop" " YELLOW=caution" "GREEN=get your rig up max track speed ASAP"


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## jis (Jan 10, 2016)

Yup. I wanted to know the details and apparently you don't have the information that I was seeking. Thanks for stating the obvious though. Anyway you of course do realize that your response to the material quoted is what would be characterized as "non-responsive blather ".


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 10, 2016)

Hal said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Hal said:
> ...



I remember this. It kind of fizzled out in the 80's after a flurry of equal opportunity lawsuits.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 10, 2016)

This should be useful ...

*SIGNAL ASPECT CHARTS **for assorted railroads—past, present, and fictional*

http://signals.jovet.net/rules/index.html


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## jis (Jan 10, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> This should be useful ...
> 
> *SIGNAL ASPECT CHARTS **for assorted railroads—past, present, and fictional*
> 
> http://signals.jovet.net/rules/index.html


That is wonderful. Thanks!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 10, 2016)

Here is a guide that was left out.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 10, 2016)

:lol:



Thirdrail7 said:


> Here is a guide that was left out.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 10, 2016)

So where's Page 1?



Thirdrail7 said:


> Here is a guide that was left out.


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## Hal (Jan 10, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Here is a guide that was left out.


LOL

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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 10, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> So where's Page 1?


The LSD signal ripped it out of the book before it could be scanned.


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## cirdan (Jan 11, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> Signal light burned-out:
> 
> I was on an eastbound Wolverine that ended up stopped in Indiana for about two hours. The conductor informed us that a signal "wasn't working properly", so we were stopped and awaiting instructions.
> 
> ...


I thought there was a way that a dispatcher could give a train exceptional clearance to pass a failed or stop signal. It may be necessary to pass a stop signal either due to an exceptional failure which is known by the dispatcher to be safe, or for a second train to enter an occupied section, for example to rescue a broken down train.

I'm not sure how it works in the US but in some countries this involves the dispatcher writing a written excemption and reading it to the engineer or conductor by telephone or radio. The dispatcher must write it down on paper word for word and re-read it to the dispatcher and if the wording is identical (including names of parties involved, location, date and time) this is positive proof of correct transmission and the train may proceed at restricted speed until the next signal.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2016)

Use or track warrants works more or less the same way in the US. Depending on the rule book being used the form has a specific name. NORAC I believe calls it Form D.

One of the functions of the radio link is ACSES is to release an absolute stop to allow a train to pass a stop signal with a track warrant.


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## Hal (Jan 11, 2016)

jis said:


> Use or track warrants works more or less the same way in the US. Depending on the rule book being used the form has a specific name. NORAC I believe calls it Form D.
> 
> One of the functions of the radio link is ACSES is to release an absolute stop to allow a train to pass a stop signal with a track warrant.


Yes, under NORAC it is called a Form D. Years ago a Form D would have been required to pass a stop signal. But that was rule changed was some time ago. Under the current NORAC rules the dispatcher gives verbal permission for a train to pass a stop signal. No Form D. If you have a NORAC rule book it is Rule 241. 

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## jis (Jan 11, 2016)

Hal said:


> Yes, under NORAC it is called a Form D. Years ago a Form D would have been required to pass a stop signal. But that was rule changed was some time ago. Under the current NORAC rules the dispatcher gives verbal permission for a train to pass a stop signal. No Form D. If you have a NORAC rule book it is Rule 241.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ah! Thanks for the correction.


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## Palmetto (Jan 11, 2016)

Under GCOR , dispatchers may also give verbal permission to pass an absolute signal indicating stop. [Dispatchers do not give permission to pass a stop / dark signal; trains may pass them at proceed at restricted speed to the next signal.] GCOR is used my railroads in the West.

This happens in Newton, KS a lot, for example, where engines are coming out of the roundhouse to go to the yard to get on their train.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 15, 2016)

jis said:


> Yup. I wanted to know the details and apparently you don't have the information that I was seeking. Thanks for stating the obvious though. Anyway you of course do realize that your response to the material quoted is what would be characterized as "non-responsive blather ".


So, now that you have read the "norac rules"

And understood all 300 of those rules, and the at least 3 or 8 signal aspects that might mean the same rule, or not, depending on what rails your trains is on

And tried to understand the NORAC system, which tries to encode with lineside signals both speed rules, upcoming diversions, and absolute signals.

The Cab signals are a lot clearer than the NORAC rules.

You wanted the details -- I gave "non-responsive blather"

You got the NORAC rule book. 

Because -- the NORAC rules can only lead to "non-responsive blather"

The NORAC rules -- LOOK at the rules --

NORAC rules -- OK I'm an idiot -- but having 3-5 alternative signal aspect rules for "Approach medium speed then go slow and prepare diverge" -- the cab signals are so much clearer when they work.

The ancient NORAC rulebook -- at least 5 alternative wayside signals for each possible engineer response.

Lose the details, get on PTC, forget trackside signals.

BUT, if you have to run a train on the NEC -- lotsa good systems -- just learn a few incompatible systems and never forget which rules and which track you are on


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2016)

Thanks for your valuable contributions to the thread?

How long have you been a locomotive engineer?


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## jis (Jan 15, 2016)

NW cannonball said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. I wanted to know the details and apparently you don't have the information that I was seeking. Thanks for stating the obvious though. Anyway you of course do realize that your response to the material quoted is what would be characterized as "non-responsive blather ".
> ...


Sorry more pointless blather


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## Hal (Jan 15, 2016)

NW cannonball said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. I wanted to know the details and apparently you don't have the information that I was seeking. Thanks for stating the obvious though. Anyway you of course do realize that your response to the material quoted is what would be characterized as "non-responsive blather ".
> ...


What you wrote in your first post and this last one about signals do not make much sense. I gather that is because you do not understand railroad signaling.

As for the NORAC "alternate" aspects, they are not alternates. Color signals are replacing position signals. Other signals you see in the rule are dwarf versions of the high signals that are on the ground. Also there are Washington Terminal signals a regular signal and dwarf signal. If you don't operate in Washington Terminal you don't have to learn those. An Approach Medium has the same indication whichever aspect undert he rule is used. The crews only have to learn the aspects they see in their territory. By the way in NORAC, Approach Medium, the rule is Proceed approaching the next signal at Medium Speed.


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## Jovet (Jan 22, 2016)

jis said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > This should be useful ...
> ...


As the creator/owner of that site and those signal charts, I'm glad to hear they're enjoyed and useful.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Here is a guide that was left out.
> 
> _(NORAC speed signals continued)_


That is pretty funny!

But that one even omits the archaic reflective-mirror ball. When it's high, so are you.


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## Jovet (Jan 22, 2016)

By the way, as a railroad signaling guru, I encourage anyone and everyone who wants to better understand North American railroad signaling to read Al Krug's page on the subject:

_http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm_​
Mr. Krug is an engineer for BNSF, and has put together the best explanation of "signals" I've ever seen on the web. Be sure to read all the linked pages, too, which detail various signal systems.


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## Hal (Jan 22, 2016)

Jovet said:


> By the way, as a railroad signaling guru, I encourage anyone and everyone who wants to better understand North American railroad signaling to read Al Krug's page on the subject:
> 
> _http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm_
> 
> Mr. Krug is an engineer for BNSF, and has put together the best explanation of "signals" I've ever seen on the web. Be sure to read all the linked pages, too, which detail various signal systems.


Excellent!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## NW cannonball (Jan 23, 2016)

Jovet said:


> By the way, as a railroad signaling guru, I encourage anyone and everyone who wants to better understand North American railroad signaling to read Al Krug's page on the subject:
> 
> _http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm_​
> Mr. Krug is an engineer for BNSF, and has put together the best explanation of "signals" I've ever seen on the web. Be sure to read all the linked pages, too, which detail various signal systems.


Thanks - really helpful


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## Jovet (Feb 6, 2020)

Mr. Krug's excellent signaling website has disappeared off the internet since a few years. But much of it is archived: 
*Tales From the Krug (Signals) [Internet Archive]*​


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