# points for bedrooms and other travel going up 4/1/12



## manderson (Jan 4, 2012)

I just noticed this -- it's going to take more points to redeem a bedroom award. Check out the "redeem for Amtrak travel" page, there's a link to the specifics.


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## amamba (Jan 4, 2012)

I seriously JUST saw this and was coming over here to post about it!!!

But it looks like roomettes will stay the same, just bedrooms are going up. Plus acela travel.


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## amamba (Jan 4, 2012)

Here is a link to the info on the AGR website:

https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/info/news/redemptionchange


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## Jim G. (Jan 4, 2012)

Looks like the increase is a heck of a lot more than that 3.6% Social Security increase for 2012.


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## amamba (Jan 4, 2012)

Jim G. said:


> Looks like the increase is a heck of a lot more than that 3.6% Social Security increase for 2012.


Sure, but don't forget that they haven't raised redemption levels since 2006.

Plus how many working stiffs got a 3.6% or more raise last year?


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## rrdude (Jan 4, 2012)

Saw this on FlyerTalk, by AGR Insider, and then looked at my AGR account, and "sure enuff".

https://amtrakguestr...edemptionchange

or


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks for breaking this out into its own thread, and thanks to Amamba for bringing it up in her thread.

Surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 4, 2012)

This, more than anything else Amtrak has done (or not done) in recent memory, will negatively impact my willingness (and ability) to ride. I hope they know what they're doing.


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## lthanlon (Jan 4, 2012)

Roomette redemption is unaffected?


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## jmbgeg (Jan 4, 2012)

rrdude said:


> Saw this on FlyerTalk, by AGR Insider, and then looked at my AGR account, and "sure enuff".
> 
> https://amtrakguestr...edemptionchange
> 
> or


Interesting how the rate of increase varies:

One zone bedroom: +25%

Two zone bedroom: +33%

Three zone bedroom: +20%

Any ideas on why these variances exist?

As a sidebar, it would be interesting to see how much rail fares and accomodations have increased over the same period. Don't those increases offset the higher cost of redeemed rewards?


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## TimePeace (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks for posting. This will probably not impact me at all. As long as roomette fares stay the same I'm happy - and for shorter coach trips (Northeast zone) I'd rather pay cash and save my points for LD roomettes.


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## rrdude (Jan 4, 2012)

Ryan said:


> Thanks for breaking this out into its own thread, and thanks to Amamba for bringing it up in her thread.
> 
> Surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet!


Ryan, as soon as I saw it, I checked FlyerTalk, and AGR-Insider had _just_ posted it moments earlier, so that's what gave me idea to post here.....


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## Anderson (Jan 4, 2012)

Has there been any mention of roomette/LD coach changes?

As to this happening...eh, something like this has probably been "due" for a bit. Look how much fares and PPR have gone up in the last 5-6 years.

As to the percentage increases, those are because Amtrak likes to do those big things in 5,000 point lumps, I think.


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## JayPea (Jan 4, 2012)

It was inevitable, I suppose. I have a trip in the works with my uncle, per usual, and we usually get the details nailed down before the 1st of April anyway. I will probably be unable to accumulate enough points/year for a bedroom from now on, but can still do roomette. As long as it's sleeper accomodations, I'll take it!


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## Rail Freak (Jan 4, 2012)

Well, we all knew it was coming. Just like the coming of the rise in the price of AGR Points, some day!!!

Having Fun Aint Cheap!!!

RF


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## Ispolkom (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm quick to mock AGR for its generally shambolic relationship to business, but this is as classy a devaluation as I have seen. We have nearly three months to book travel, there are still no capacity controls, and we can book travel for eleven months ahead. Compare that to what British Airways and Hilton have done in the past couple of years. Really, while I'm not happy about the increase, I'm pleasantly impressed by how it was done.

That having been said, the first time I booked DEN-SAC-PDX-MSP in bedrooms it was a one-zone award for 20,000 points. Soon it will be a two-zone award for 40,000 points. It's still a great deal, but not what it was, and with the end of transfers through Continental I fear AGR points will be harder for me to acquire.

I'll admit that I initially thought that this was a joke, given that the changes take effect April Fools Day.


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## amamba (Jan 4, 2012)

Actually manderson posted about it earlier today:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45219-points-for-bedrooms-and-other-travel/

Maybe a mod can merge the two threads?

But yeah, I think it is actually really interesting that they aren't increasing the roomette redemptions. I do have to say that I thought that it was amazing that the bedrooms weren't really that much more "expensive" in terms of AGR awards compared to roomettes. And while 60K is a lot of points for three zones, keep in mind that it can be used for multiple people and again, with no capacity controls.

I also am very appreciative that they gave us three months notice to book our travel. They would have been well within their rights to make the announcement today and make the rules effective today.


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## the_traveler (Jan 4, 2012)

I merged the 2 threads.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 4, 2012)

Supply and Demand seems to be at work here, as Bedrooms are much "scarcer" than Roomettes or Coach seats. Hence, the tighter supply coupled with the high demand means it costs more to feed the kitty


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## Anderson (Jan 5, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> I'm quick to mock AGR for its generally shambolic relationship to business, but this is as classy a devaluation as I have seen. We have nearly three months to book travel, there are still no capacity controls, and we can book travel for eleven months ahead. Compare that to what British Airways and Hilton have done in the past couple of years. Really, while I'm not happy about the increase, I'm pleasantly impressed by how it was done.
> 
> That having been said, the first time I booked DEN-SAC-PDX-MSP in bedrooms it was a one-zone award for 20,000 points. Soon it will be a two-zone award for 40,000 points. It's still a great deal, but not what it was, and with the end of transfers through Continental I fear AGR points will be harder for me to acquire.
> 
> I'll admit that I initially thought that this was a joke, given that the changes take effect April Fools Day.


I'll second this sentiment. The other point I'll make is that you're _still_ getting a solid deal almost across the board. Taking the value of a point as being $.01 (what you'd get on an efficient gift card redemption, were you to do so), you get the following:


```
Acela First:	$105.00 to $120.00
Business, NE:	$65.00  to $75.00
Coach, NE:	$30.00  to $40.00
Business, Spec:	$15.00  to $20.00
Coach, Spec:	$10.00  to $15.00
BR/One Zone:	$200.00 to $250.00
BR/Two Zone:	$300.00 to $400.00
BR/Three Zone:	$500.00 to $600.00
Rule Buster 1:	$185.00 to $190.00
Rule Buster 2:	$115.00 to $130.00
Rule Buster 3:	$55.00  to $70.00
```
In most of these cases, you're still looking at an impressive deal: A bedroom from WAS to LAX on the Cap and the Chief in the middle of the month (I picked Jan. 18) runs $1616; going from NYP-LAX on the LSL/SWC is $1787; NYP-SEA on the LSL/Builder is $1475. Even the cheapest coast-to-coast trip on that date (WAS-EMY on the Cap and the Zephry) runs $1158. By contrast, you can also book a MIA-NYP-CHI-LAX Meteor-LSL-SWC that "ought" to cost you $3134 for those rooms for that same price.

Do note that most of those special corridors are seeing major fare spikes this year, too (the Surfliner jumps to mind in particular, but it's pretty steady across the board), while that Acela First ticket still gets you a $306 fare WAS-BOS this weekend.

Is this deal "less good" than it was before? Yes. Is it still a very good deal? Absolutely, particularly if you use it right. And there is still (at least for the interim, and presumably for another year or two; I doubt we'd see a second set of increases this year) the roomette deal.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2012)

The other factor that feeds into this sort of thing is also how many unencashed AGR points are sloshing around in the system. As they become more liberal with special double and triple point and other deals, the flip side is that cost of tickets in AGR points also goes up eventually. It is just the dynamics of the market in AGR points.


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## abcnews (Jan 5, 2012)

So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?

BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).


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## PRR 60 (Jan 5, 2012)

abcnews said:


> So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?
> 
> BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).


Yes, regardless of the trip date (can be up to 11 months in advance), AGR trips booked prior to April 1 will get the old rates. However, if a trip booked prior to April 1 is modified on or after April 1, the change will require imposition of the new rate. If you book a bedroom Chicago to Seattle on March 29 for 30,000 points and on April 2 decide to change the date of travel, you will have to ante-up the additional 10,000 points to make the change.


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## dlagrua (Jan 5, 2012)

One thing that I've always considered unfair is that it takes a two zone 10 hr AGR trip to get from PGH to CHI but you can also go from CHI to LAX for the same two zones and two nights.


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## the_traveler (Jan 5, 2012)

I agree that east coast to CHI is a 2 zone trip, while Portland, ME to MIA is a 1 zone trip - and the Portland to MIA trip is *MUCH* longer!


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## fairviewroad (Jan 5, 2012)

abcnews said:


> So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?
> 
> BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).


Yes, seasonal redemption variations would seem to make a lot of sense and relatively easy to implement.



dlagrua said:


> One thing that I've always considered unfair is that it takes a two zone 10 hr AGR trip to get from PGH to CHI but you can also go from CHI to LAX for the same two zones and two nights.


Ah, but this bites in both directions as we all know. And furthermore the same pattern is true for airline tickets. Airlines want the same 25,000 frequent flyer miles for a high-dollar cross-country flight between small obscure airports as they do for a regional high-frequency, low-cost route. It's up to us to figure out what makes the best sense. The logical alternative for airlines and for Amtrak is for them to tie the number of points/miles you need to redeem to the going rate of the ticket. But I'm pretty sure most of us would hate that idea.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 5, 2012)

Another thought: as much as I love those special route redemptions, this will (mostly) close the loophole that allows passengers to purchase the points needed for a special route redemption for less than the actual cost of the ticket. (See the Cascades corridor, for instance...much cheaper to buy points from PDX-VAC than to pay cash for the ticket). With the higher redemption rates it will make sense less often to buy the points, which I suppose is a logical (though disappointing) move by Amtrak.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 5, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Taking the value of a point as being $.01 (what you'd get on an efficient gift card redemption, were you to do so), you get the following:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


In my view the "value" of a point is what Amtrak charges you to buy one, in which case we would have something more like this...


```
Bedroom - One Zone       $550 becomes  $688 
Bedroom - Two Zones 	 $825 becomes $1100
Bedroom - Three Zones 	$1375 becomes $1650
```
While that is still cheaper than paying Amtrak's current ticket cost, in many cases it's already more expensive than first class airfare. It's true that you can fit an extra person or two tiny people in a bedroom so sometimes you may get ahead there, but I was still able to find two and even three first class tickets for a similar price as a single Amtrak bedroom on Orbitz. The family room beats first class airfare, but with only one of those per sleeper they're not likely to be free.



Anderson said:


> In most of these cases, you're still looking at an impressive deal: A bedroom from WAS to LAX on the Cap and the Chief in the middle of the month (I picked Jan. 18) runs $1616; going from NYP-LAX on the LSL/SWC is $1787; NYP-SEA on the LSL/Builder is $1475. Even the cheapest coast-to-coast trip on that date (WAS-EMY on the Cap and the Zephry) runs $1158. By contrast, you can also book a MIA-NYP-CHI-LAX Meteor-LSL-SWC that "ought" to cost you $3134 for those rooms for that same price.


I'm not sure how impressive of a deal it is. Amtrak's _paid_ bedroom fares have already become just about the most expensive way to travel outside of a private jet or rock star bus. But yeah, I guess compared to that it's a steal.


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## City of Miami (Jan 5, 2012)

Well, I'm glad that's over! I've been dreading the inevitable - and when it comes it doesn't impact me. I have never been in a bedroom and since I always seems to travel alone roomettes are just fine. I have nearly 80K pts so four 2 zoners within reach. I was planning to take one of them next month (EMY-SAS via Zephyr/Eagle)but I was given a large Amtrak gift certificate for Christmas and it seems more advantageous to use that instead of an AGR trip to pay for it as the Zephyr is quite reasonable now and the point value would only be about $.036.


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## tonys96 (Jan 6, 2012)

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????


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## RampWidget (Jan 31, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > I'm quick to mock AGR for its generally shambolic relationship to business, but this is as classy a devaluation as I have seen. We have nearly three months to book travel, there are still no capacity controls, and we can book travel for eleven months ahead. Compare that to what British Airways and Hilton have done in the past couple of years. Really, while I'm not happy about the increase, I'm pleasantly impressed by how it was done.
> ...


Couldn't agree more that this is still a pretty good deal, even with the redemption levels going up. I might also point out that we are able, up to April 1st, to book reward travel at the OLD rates. Just booked a Bedroom on #14 LAX/SEA last night for travel April 12th... still only 20K points. Think it's time to transfer some more points into my AGR account & book some summertime sightseeing! By the way, the AGR rep on the phone last night was Gr8 to deal with... pleasant, professional, & thorough... put us in Bdrm E, 32 car, without even being asked.


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## Oldsmoboi (Feb 3, 2012)

Airfare is going up too.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 3, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> Airfare is going up too.


Depends on where you're flying. Southwest just dropped the price of my MSP-DEN flight in May by $10. I quickly reticketed.


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## Oldsmoboi (Feb 3, 2012)

As a general average I mean. Specific flights will still go up and down, but the overall trend appears to be up.


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## abcnews (Feb 7, 2012)

I was over on the AGR site, and I noticed in the Northeast zone - and the Bedroom Award.

In the past, I never though a minute about that - simply because the redemption was exactly the same as "One Zone Award". So there really was no savings - except for a Northeast zone, coach ticket (just 3,000 points). However, now I can't help but wonder... There is no mention of a redemption increase on a Bedroom in the Northeast Zone. The increase takes effect on April 1, 2012 and specifically mentions a One Zone, two zone, etc awards. But no mention of the Northeast Zone... which currently shows a specific 20,000 point award - for a bedroom anywhere in the Northeast zone (item #1047).

Not really a big deal, so that must mean that a BR in the Northeast zone will remain at 20,000? That would be OK - and honestly, very fair for all. Example - from Richmond to Syracuse - would just be 20,000 for a Bedroom - after April 1st, but Richmond to Tampa (in a bedroom) would go up (one Zone) - and it would be 25,000 points, after April 1st.


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## printman2000 (Feb 8, 2012)

tonys96 said:


> I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????


The whole point of raising the point value is to make it harder to redeem. I would think that Amtrak expects to see redemptions down.

Does not mean they will not have a bonus on points sales, though. Just depends on if they feel they can make money on it or not.


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## Shortline (Feb 8, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????
> ...



I'm not sure I completely agree....this increase might just be a trigger to get MORE redemptions in a short amount of time, to get the unfounded liability off the books. Seems smart to me to do it this way....by giving the grace period, it would encourage members with large numbers of points on the balance sheet to pull the trigger and use them, over the next year, instead of letting them pile up. I know I wasn't planning on using them this year, but due to the change, I just booked a 40,000 point redemption. By clearing off a lot of the points, it lowers their outstanding unfounded liability. Im no expert, but it's how I see it.


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## printman2000 (Feb 8, 2012)

Shortline said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > tonys96 said:
> ...


You make a good point. I just cannot see how trying to get people to redeem points is good for Amtrak. That costs them money. People stockpiling points costs them hardly anything.

To me, the purpose seems to be a raise in points so you have to spend more to earn redemptions. The purpose of getting people to spend their points in such a short amount of time does not sound like something they would want to do.


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## Shortline (Feb 8, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> Shortline said:
> 
> 
> > printman2000 said:
> ...



Unused points are essentially debt. Amtrak "owes" X number of people x number of what essentially are real dollars. The trip I booked, if I paid for it, would have cost me over $2500. That space is now not able to be sold to someone with money, therefore it's a real cost. By Getting a lot of people to use up points now, and devaluing the rest, it lowers the amount of what is essentially debt liability. FF programs and hotel programs do this for the same reason. Let too many unused points pile up out there in the system, is like having a huge stack of IOU's. To lower what they owe, they get people to settle up, as it were, so they can better plan on what they can reasonably expect to earn from sales. I'm no economist by any means, but it makes some sense to me to keep the total potential debt down n such a manner. Ticket prices don't go down over time, they go up. So, in theory, having a lot of people redeeming at this years prices vs pricing in the future, saves them. They made money selling the points, but if not used at near term rates, the "cost" paid to those points decreases, while the equivalent cost of travel keeps increasing. That's what I think is going on.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2012)

The problem with seeing these points as "real" currency is that their value is completely arbitrary. Even a relatively small AGR balance of 20,000 points could potentially be worth anything from $20 to $2,000. That’s a huge disparity and it certainly doesn’t sound like any first world currency I’m aware of. So do we just pick a random value? The minimum or maximum possible value? The median value across all potential routings? Until the points are actually used there’s no way to know what they’re worth to us. I’m sure AGR has a calculation for how much they’re worth to them based on cost factors and transaction histories we’re not privy to, but for us on the outside the value varies wildly from account to account and trip to trip. Their worth _and usage_ can be unilaterally amended, modified, or invalidated at AGR’s sole discretion. That means they’re anything *BUT* real dollars in my book, despite what the next 1099 might have to say about it.


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## amamba (Feb 8, 2012)

While I don't see the points as real dollars, do the companies value the points at some arbitrary level and them put them on their books as a liability? I bet they do.


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## Shortline (Feb 8, 2012)

amamba said:


> While I don't see the points as real dollars, do the companies value the points at some arbitrary level and them put them on their books as a liability? I bet they do.



Exactly. Not real currency or liability to you or I, but certainly is for the RR, Airline, or Hotel program involved, and their outstanding liabilities affects their loan rates, and other financial considerations. I haven't paid for a vacation in over 5 years, using hotel points, airline miles, etc for everything. I'm late to the Amtrak game, but, in just a few months, I scored enough miles with cards, cars, and hotels to pull a OKC-FTW-SAS-NOL-CHI-FTW-OKC trip, valued at over $2500 rail, $200 rental car, and $500 hotels, easily a grand total of over $3200 if I paid for it myself at regular rates. That's money that while may not be costing the companies involved that exact amount, takes capacity away that COULD have been paid and bought at that rate, 1099 or not. When in NOL, my hotel is free, as is the rental car I'll drive over to Pensacola to stay at a beach resort with my family, also free, as is the gas card I'll fill the rental car with. Who knows, might even redeem some points for some restaraunt cards to go cost free completely! So, my premise is reasonably valid-AMTK guest rewards was due an increase, hasn't gone up in something like 6 years....it was time, and I think the "grace period" is used to encourage redemption at today's cost, vs costs in the coming years and lower their potential future outlay, thus helping by securing more favorable financing and terms. Obviously, the downside to all of that, is if I'm getting all this free travel, I'm just gone too much to be fun anymore, but, hey, it beats working!


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## Steel City Don (Feb 9, 2012)

I have never used my guest points yet.....


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## SarahZ (Feb 14, 2012)

EMTDON said:


> I have never used my guest points yet.....


How long have you had them? They expire 36 months after your last paid Amtrak trip if you don't have the Chase Guest Rewards credit card.


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## bay state bruce (Mar 21, 2012)

JayPea said:


> It was inevitable, I suppose. I have a trip in the works with my uncle, per usual, and we usually get the details nailed down before the 1st of April anyway. I will probably be unable to accumulate enough points/year for a bedroom from now on, but can still do roomette. As long as it's sleeper accomodations, I'll take it!


Have you looked into buying points now and using them before the increase.You also get a 30% bonus in points if you buy now.Visit the

AGR website for more info.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 30, 2012)

Anyone else making last-minute bookings before the increase kicks in on Sunday? I just booked a Special Routes round-trip in September, kind of a "just for fun" trip but

I figured I'd get one last redemption in at the 1000 point level. I was able to redeem my points online, but I wonder what the phone waiting times are like right now...if others

are making last-minute bedroom redemptions, etc.


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 30, 2012)

Yes, this morning I booked a bedroom from SLC to TOL with our last 30,000 points. 

The AGR agent, Roger, was very efficient and friendly and understood all the last minute manipulations going on this weekend. :lol:


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## the_traveler (Mar 30, 2012)

Sorcha said:


> EMTDON said:
> 
> 
> > I have never used my guest points yet.....
> ...


You are correct to a point, Sorcha!

The points do expire 36 months after your last Amtrak trip, but once you do take a trip, *ALL* of your points are extended for another 36 months!

Example:


You take a trip and after the trip, you have 6,236 points
You take a trip 18 months late and after you have 20,038 points - *ALL* 20,038 points are extended another 36 months!
32 months later, you take a trip and after you have 46,227 points - *ALL* 46,227 points are extended another 36 months!
3 months late, you take a trip and after you have 61,689 points - *ALL* 61,689 points are extended another 36 months!
Etc, etc...

That's how I have over 206K points!


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## RampWidget (Mar 31, 2012)

Not surprisingly, it takes awhile to get through to the AGR reps this weekend due to the redemption level changes going into effect at midnight tonight.

The AGR rep that helped me was cheerful, competent, and took care of our bedroom reservation quickly. When I asked, she said they've been busy all week but were expecting the volume.

I got through late this morning (3/31) after about a twenty-minute hold. Had tried late last night just before the AGR desk closed at midnight Eastern time and never got through.

The wait is much easier to deal with if, after you do all the phone menu stuff, just put your phone on speaker and finish your coffee & the paper while you wait. :blush:


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## Dovecote (Mar 31, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> > EMTDON said:
> ...


Do you get any notification from AGR if your points are about to expire? This is not an issue for me but some of my immediate family members have not redeemed their AGR points in awhile and possibly longer than 36 months.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 31, 2012)

Dovecote said:


> Do you get any notification from AGR if your points are about to expire? This is not an issue for me but some of my immediate family members have not redeemed their AGR points in awhile and possibly longer than 36 months.


No, AGR does not send any warning about points expiring. It is up to the member to keep track of the last date of points from Amtrak travel.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 31, 2012)

I read on face-books amtrak page some woman was saying that even though the points you paid before the increase are grandfathered it appeared she was saying that they took out more points from her account before the change date after she had already booked.


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## RampWidget (Apr 1, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Dovecote said:
> 
> 
> > Do you get any notification from AGR if your points are about to expire? This is not an issue for me but some of my immediate family members have not redeemed their AGR points in awhile and possibly longer than 36 months.
> ...


You are right - the expiration date sneaks up on you quickly. I had almost 11K vanish overnight! However... luckily, a phone call to AGR got a rep that offered to reinstate the expired points if I took a paid Amtrak trip within a few weeks (30 days, IIRC). Did that, of course, and true to AGR's word, got the points reinstated. This apparently is an unwritten exception given at the rep's discretion - it never hurts to call and ask nicely.


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## the_traveler (Apr 1, 2012)

4/1/12 is here, so I am unpinning this topic. It can still be posted to, but it will be below the pinned threads!


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