# Wacky Pre-Amtrak Train Operations



## Anderson (Jun 24, 2014)

Since we've all seen Amtrak do odd things on occasion, and I know the various state commissions caused some "interesting" things during the discontinuation-heavy 1960s (trains running from border to border within a state, for example), I'm wondering what some of the odder results were of either railroads sticking odd trains together or keeping some "required" services in various ways.

I know this is not the craziest pre-Amtrak operation, but I came across an oddity on the Soo Line in a 1956 Official Guide. Soo Line train 64/65 apparently ran from Plummer, MN to Thief River Falls, MN for the sole purpose of serving Hazel, MN (a place which does not appear to even qualify as a hamlet...I think there might be two houses there now), a location skipped by the other two trains on the route at the time. I can't tell if this was an ICC-mandated service, some internal legacy service that had once gone further, or (given the 7:50 AM arrival in Plummer and 4:05 PM departure from Plummer) possibly the strangest commuter train I've ever seen...but it sure ranks up there.


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2014)

I remember seeing in 1970 the Georgia Railroad mixed train pull out of a makeshift station in Atlanta - I think bound for Augusta. It was a fairly modern coach with no lights. From what I have read it existed only to fulfill a state requirement and was not known to adhere to the schedule. For awhile it appeared in the early Amtrak timetables. Then, on the line that I worked for many years, starting out on Erie Lackawanna, which became Conrail, which became NJ Transit, we used to have some interesting long distance trains that I still remember. The last long distance train finished on January 5, 1970, #6, the Lake Cities from Chicago, which left there with just a baggage car and coaches, picked up a diner in Huntington, Ind., then a sleeper in Marion, Ohio, or something like that. They ran the newest sleeping cars in the east at the time. In elementary school I remember seeing in the morning two sections come through Madison, NJ, one behind the other, one from Chicago, and one from Buffalo, carrying some Nickel Plate cars. Prior to that, in 1966, with the discontinuance of the Phoebe Snow, the best known train, there were two mail train from Hoboken to Buffalo. The Owl left Hoboken around midnight, with coaches only. The return from Buffalo was called the New York Mail, which left Buffalo in the afternoon

and arrived Hoboken at 3:30 am. No diner - meal service was advertised as the station restaurant in Binghamton. I remember going on ride with my grandmother in the early 60s to Scranton, on the Scrantonion. Left Hoboken at 7:45am, with one old coach on the back of a bunch of mail cars. went up the Boonton Line making a bunch of local stops and took over four hours to reach Scranton. I remember the conductor saying it did not carry passengers past Scranton, but discontinued as a mail train to Elmira, NY. ( Isn't that where they are assembling new Amtrak sleepers? )


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2014)

That last train continued on to Elmira - then everything was discontinued!


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## railiner (Jun 28, 2014)

I think the last remnant of Erie-Lackawanna passenger service, outside of New Jersey and New York, was the single daily commuter train they ran between Youngstown and Cleveland, that lasted into the Conrail era....14 January 1977....


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## railiner (Jun 28, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Since we've all seen Amtrak do odd things on occasion, and I know the various state commissions caused some "interesting" things during the discontinuation-heavy 1960s (trains running from border to border within a state, for example), I'm wondering what some of the odder results were of either railroads sticking odd trains together or keeping some "required" services in various ways.


Yes. I remember vaguely some of those....the train would sometimes travel between major terminals, for operating convenience, but they would not let anyone ride those, except for the mandated segment, to puposely drive down ridership to the point where at the next go-round, they could win the discontinuance....


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 28, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I remember seeing in 1970 the Georgia Railroad mixed train pull out of a makeshift station in Atlanta - I think bound for Augusta. It was a fairly modern coach with no lights. From what I have read it existed only to fulfill a state requirement and was not known to adhere to the schedule. For awhile it appeared in the early Amtrak timetables. Then, on the line that I worked for many years, starting out on Erie Lackawanna, which became Conrail, which became NJ Transit, we used to have some interesting long distance trains that I still remember. The last long distance train finished on January 5, 1970, #6, the Lake Cities from Chicago, which left there with just a baggage car and coaches, picked up a diner in Huntington, Ind., then a sleeper in Marion, Ohio, or something like that. They ran the newest sleeping cars in the east at the time. In elementary school I remember seeing in the morning two sections come through Madison, NJ, one behind the other, one from Chicago, and one from Buffalo, carrying some Nickel Plate cars. Prior to that, in 1966, with the discontinuance of the Phoebe Snow, the best known train, there were two mail train from Hoboken to Buffalo. The Owl left Hoboken around midnight, with coaches only. The return from Buffalo was called the New York Mail, which left Buffalo in the afternoon
> 
> and arrived Hoboken at 3:30 am. No diner - meal service was advertised as the station restaurant in Binghamton. I remember going on ride with my grandmother in the early 60s to Scranton, on the Scrantonion. Left Hoboken at 7:45am, with one old coach on the back of a bunch of mail cars. went up the Boonton Line making a bunch of local stops and took over four hours to reach Scranton. I remember the conductor saying it did not carry passengers past Scranton, but discontinued as a mail train to Elmira, NY. ( Isn't that where they are assembling new Amtrak sleepers? )


Ironically the coach often used on the Georgia mixed was a streamlined modern coach built for the 1949/50 reequipping of the train then known as the Crescent. Bu it was not kept up at all, having no lights, heat, air. no running water.etc The day I rode that train it took 10 hours instead of four, They had no literal tickets and the price was stuck at 1971 levels, Sometimes they used an old heavyweight sleeper, no open beds of course. Sometimes they used two cabooses, one for crew and one for passengers,The crew made sure I knew what I was in for before they let me board. Great fun but it was pitiful to see what that once handsome coach came to look like. The crew told me they had about two passengers a month.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 28, 2014)

Here is something I found interesting about the Southland and the Flamingo.

Southbound they would arrive Atlanta from Cincinnati and Knoxville and with sleepers thru from Chicago and Detroit on the Southland This on the L&N at Union station.

They would leave Atlanta for Macon and Florida points from Terminal station as Central of Georgia trains. I am keeping ithe equipment details simple..

IIn otherwords they arrived at one station did, some of their business and departed from the other.Each train twice a day, in each direction. then

The timetable never gave a time for the transistion An L&N table from 1956, for example, shows the northbound Flamingo arirve Atlanta Ternminal statoin at 5,40 pm and leave L&N Union station at 7,50 pm but no time shown to make the switch


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 28, 2014)

Great to see you back Bill! These stories make me think about the Espee when they did everything they could to run off passengers on the Sunset Route

including pulling off the Sleepers and Dinerfrom the Sunset Ltd. and the Infamous Automat Food Cars! Those weren't the good old days for sure!

Hopefully the "Cut Squad"@ 60 Mass won't try to emulate those terrible ideas!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 28, 2014)

UH OH I think I misunderstood the original question, you were thinking about things which were wacky and meant to discorurage business. I just picked up on the wacky part. That thing about the Southland and the Flamingo changing stations in Atlanta was certainly wacky but not meant to discourage.business


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## Anderson (Jun 28, 2014)

I wasn't necessarily thinking of "meant to discourage business" angle, just particularly odd operational decisions (which may or may not have been valid).


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