# Silver Sleepers Sold out



## Seaboard92 (Mar 24, 2015)

The entire months of July and august are sold out. I'm guessing it's a computer glitch. Does anyone know anyway to get reservations to investigate this.


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## OBS (Mar 24, 2015)

Maybe post on twitter?


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## Ryan (Mar 24, 2015)

Not the first time this has happened.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/62227-silver-star-sleepers-january-march/


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## Palmetto (Mar 24, 2015)

The problem seems to go beyond August and well into October. I'd call the 800 Amtrak number and ask them. It's only a 91 problem. You can get a room on 97 to Orlando and then the Thruway bus over to Tampa, though.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm trying to get on 92 to go north to catch a flight


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## Terry (Mar 24, 2015)

According to Amsnag.net........Trains 91 & 92 are being shown as sold out from August 1, up until the end of January 2016. When I went ot Amtrak.com for Feb.....I searched for Feb 1, Feb 8,& Feb 21.......also all sold out.


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## chakk (Mar 24, 2015)

Maybe Amtrak is considering eliminating the sleepers on those trains effective August 1, and so has blocked all reservations for sleeper space thereafter?


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## acelafan (Mar 24, 2015)

I think chakk might be onto something.


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## Ryan (Mar 25, 2015)

No.


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## abcnews (Mar 25, 2015)

Is there any new information? Hopefully it's just a glitch in their system.


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## CHamilton (Mar 25, 2015)

chakk's theory seems very unlikely, but don't the new Viewliner sleepers have a different room configuration? If so, Amtrak may be hoping to have them in service by then, in which case the number of rooms available for sale might be different.


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## StriderGDM (Mar 25, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> chakk's theory seems very unlikely, but don't the new Viewliner sleepers have a different room configuration? If so, Amtrak may be hoping to have them in service by then, in which case the number of rooms available for sale might be different.


The new sleepers almost certainly won't be available by then and even if they were, there's only one fewer roomettes, so it would be trivial to just sell one fewer room per car.


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## 2.0 (Mar 25, 2015)

If the new Viewliner II Sleepers are being planned by Amtrak to be in revenue service starting in July, I think we should be seeing them starting to come out of the factory by now, no?


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## CCC1007 (Mar 25, 2015)

Could it be that they are thinking the dormitory cars might be ready at that time?


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## jis (Mar 25, 2015)

2.0 said:


> If the new Viewliner II Sleepers are being planned by Amtrak to be in revenue service starting in July, I think we should be seeing them starting to come out of the factory by now, no?


Correct. Think very late 2015 or 2016 for new Sleepers. They will not be available in July. This I have heard from very authoritative source within Amtrak.


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## 2.0 (Mar 25, 2015)

Could it be that some "new" travel agency has gone online, gotten carried away, and booked all the sleepers?

IMHO, Amtrak policy of unconditional refunds, makes doing such a no-loose proposition for any agency. There has to be a way to friendly to regular travelers, but not to agencies that abuse the refund system.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 25, 2015)

This thread seems to be a mixture of true insider info, supposed insider info, speculation and rumor and out and out guessing!

Based on the posts by those I know and trust, it seems to be a lock that it will be 2016 @ the earliest before the Sleepers enter service.

Its great to see the new bag cars entering service! We out here in the West look forward to seeing our first new Bag car on the Superliner trains!

My question now is which comes next, the New Diners or the Bag/ Dorm cars?? Based on posts here and other sites, my guess is the bag/dorm cars will be next, which will allow testing of the new sleeper layout, and also free up revenue space in the Viewliner Is which is badly needed!

So those of you that haven't gotten to eat in a Heritage Diner will still have time to do so!

In the meantime Indianapolis continues to rotate among routes which gives the food service staff experience and training in the new Diner! Luck of the draw for passengers who have not gotten to eat in it. YMMV??!!


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## Ryan (Mar 25, 2015)

Given that this happened a few months ago (and the space was eventually released), the VLII order has nothing to do with this.


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## dlagrua (Mar 25, 2015)

I can understand that sleeper space on the Silvers and on the Autotrain could be sold out as the snowbirds make their way back to Florida but sold out from August until January? September can be a slow month for Florida travel. The mad rush South starts in Nov. and the snowbird traffic is heavy going North in April, May and June

My best guess is that Amtrak is holding the sleepers for sale at a later date for some strange reason. In any event this appears to be highly irregular. Only someone working on the inside would know


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## trainman74 (Mar 25, 2015)

Those Palm Beach safety patrol kids must be taking a _lot_ of trips!


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## chrsjrcj (Mar 25, 2015)

trainman74 said:


> Those Palm Beach safety patrol kids must be taking a _lot_ of trips!


.My school went to DC via US Air. I was robbed


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## Bus Nut (Mar 26, 2015)

I was living in Maryland, so my class took the Metro!



chrsjrcj said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> > Those Palm Beach safety patrol kids must be taking a _lot_ of trips!
> ...


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## Terry (Mar 26, 2015)

Just got off 98 this afternoon. HOL to NYP. I asked the conductor about no sleeper accomodations available for all those months. He said maybe the rumor he has been hearing is true, that trains 91 & 92 will no longer offer sleeping accomodations. I hope this is not ture.

BTW.......veggie burgers were no longer available. Something about a new supplier and that they contain peanuts. Chicken in the lunch salad was very moist and tasty.

The dining car was blue.......was this one of the Heritage diners? We usualy get the green ones.


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## OBS (Mar 26, 2015)

Veggie burger issue is temporary, The supplier recalled them. Should be back in 30-45 days...


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## acelafan (Mar 26, 2015)

This is my theory, however far-flung it may be:

Amtrak is constantly dinged by Congress about losing money on long distance routes and that the sleepers/diners should be replaced with coaches and lounges/vending machines to save money. Obviously we all disagree with this argument. But Amtrak needs hard numbers to show that having these amenities produces better financial results for the train.

So, Amtrak may want to try an experiment where these amenities are removed to see how it affects the train’s finances. Obviously Amtrak doesn’t have 2 identical trains on the same long distance route and they don’t want to destroy a large customer base from a route by removing sleepers/diners, but Amtrak does have 2 LD trains with similar schedules which serve similar cities (Silver Star, Silver Meteor of course). Some customers could ride the train offering beautiful, brand-new sleepers.

A somewhat controlled experiment would be to remove the sleepers/diners from one train (which seems to be supported by ARROW’s reservation choices) and see how it changes that train’s bottom line. (I would really hope that the LD train with the sleepers and full dining car has better financial performance than the stripped train!)

It’s all conjecture on my part but it does seem a tiny bit plausible. If Amtrak does in fact do this, perhaps customers and train advocates will write to Congress and demand Amtrak put the sleepers/diners back on.

In any case, I’m taking the Star with a roomette soon *just* in case this comes to pass as I haven’t ridden that route yet! I hope it doesn’t happen, but the lack of reservations in ARROW is troubling to me.

Something doesn’t add up with no sleepers available on the Star all the way through February, 2016.


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## Train2104 (Mar 26, 2015)

acelafan said:


> Obviously Amtrak doesn’t have 2 identical trains on the same long distance route and they don’t want to destroy a large customer base...


Do we have any idea how many of Amtrak's customers are repeat customers? VIA has touted their extremely high retention rate before.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 26, 2015)

What makes no sense to me is the star generally can sell it's sleepers out. And with new sleeping cars coming in service soon. It's not an equipment issue


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## acelafan (Mar 26, 2015)

I don't know what percentage of Amtrak's customers are repeats and how it splits by coach vs sleepers. My few trips on overnight trains has shown me a mix of new and repeats.

It's not an equipment issue to remove sleepers from the Star. I think this is plan, if that's what it is, is purely a financial demonstration given the incessant attacks on LD trains by a good portion of Congress.


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## KmH (Mar 26, 2015)

As far as LD trains - Amtrak says sleeping car passengers account for 15 percent of long distance riders.

I would bet a majority of sleeper berth riders are repeats.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

Terry said:


> I asked the conductor about no sleeper accomodations available for all those months. He said maybe the rumor he has been hearing is true, that trains 91 & 92 will no longer offer sleeping accomodations. I hope this is not ture.


The sleepers will be on 97 and 98 only? Even with the new sleepers? 

With no sleepers, would 91 and 92 still have any need for its new dinner?


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## Ryan (Mar 26, 2015)

That isn't going to happen.

This happened before, and then the sleepers became bookable again. Something screwy with the computer, is all.


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## niemi24s (Mar 26, 2015)

Why did a vision of the children's book "Chicken Little" suddenly pop into my head?


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## chakk (Mar 26, 2015)

Vending machines for all meals? Shades of the Automat cars that Southern Pacific employed on their LD trains in the final years before Amtrak!


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## Palmetto (Mar 27, 2015)

RyanS said:


> That isn't going to happen.
> 
> This happened before, and then the sleepers became bookable again. Something screwy with the computer, is all.


It seems to be taking quite a while to fix, though, don't you think?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > That isn't going to happen.
> ...


+1

Especially since we're talking about some rather major revenue here. IMHO, someone or some agency some how booked them all, and they will only reappear when they fail to pay for them, or eventually cancel them.


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## JoeBas (Mar 27, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > That isn't going to happen.
> ...


Given how long it took to fix the "One room left" Bucket Bug, you're surprised?...


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## niemi24s (Mar 27, 2015)

Don't want to rain on anybody parade, but I just found a roomette on both Silvers for the 21st of every month from July through December, 2015.from MIA to NYP. The sky appears to have quit falling.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 27, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> Don't want to rain on anybody parade, but I just found a roomette on both Silvers for the 21st of every month from July through December, 2015.from MIA to NYP. The sky appears to have quit falling.


Screenshot please. I just looked at Oct 21 and there are not rooms listed for 92.

11:50am - 6:42pm (Oct 22)
30 hr, 52 min
92 Silver Star













---

1 Reserved Coach Seat

1 Reserved Coach Seat

None Left


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## prech786 (Mar 27, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> Don't want to rain on anybody parade, but I just found a roomette on both Silvers for the 21st of every month from July through December, 2015.from MIA to NYP. The sky appears to have quit falling.


Just checked 1 minute ago. No sleeper space shows available on the Silver Star 91-92 in either direction on _any day_ I looked at after July 1, 2015. Here's what I see. The sleeper spaces goes away on _exactly_ July 1, 2015, June 30 you can book a room; July 1, No. I looked out as far as it would let me, Feb. 25, 2016. Still no space

Interestingly Amtrak reservation doesn't say "Sold Out" in Red, it says "None Left" in Gray. In the past I've seen Red "Sold Out" announcements for sleeper space when it was truly "Sold Out" on one particular day. Is there any importance to the semantic or color message change?

In a any case as of 9:22 AM CDT 3/27/15 no sleeper space shows available on the Silver Star 91-92 in either direction on _any day_ I looked at after July 1, 2015


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## niemi24s (Mar 27, 2015)

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle! 92's rooms disappeared for 21 Oct!! Rooms are, however, available on 98. So I guess the sky is still falling a little bit. Methinks the Amtrak computer needs a good hard poke with the custodian's mop handle.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 27, 2015)

Curious if anyone has called to try booking a room on the Silver past June. I believe a few AUers may have already booked rooms on the Silver for October and I don't think they've been notified of any changes.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 27, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Curious if anyone has called to try booking a room on the Silver past June. I believe a few AUers may have already booked rooms on the Silver for October and I don't think they've been notified of any changes.


Yes, I checked TRE to WPK for the first week of December and the Star says "None left" under the roomette/bedroom category. And that is usually a slow travel week. The Meteor seems to be fine.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 27, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Curious if anyone has called to try booking a room on the Silver past June. I believe a few AUers may have already booked rooms on the Silver for October and I don't think they've been notified of any changes.
> ...


Did you call? That is what I'm asking. I know the website shows none left.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 27, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...


Oh, I'm sorry--I misunderstood. No, I've never booked by calling, so will leave it to someone who is better on the phone to find out.


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## Paulus (Mar 27, 2015)

From @Amtrak



> It appears that our corporate office is currently holding the sale of sleepers due to some upcoming adjustments.


So it isn't a bug in the system at least.


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm on the Northbound Meteor in May, and of three of us (who have two separate reservations since I paid for mine using Guest Reward Points), I got an email showing the schedule changed to approx. 15 minutes earlier.


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## Palmland (Mar 27, 2015)

I suspect this has much to do about reducing expenses, not about improving service. The Star becomes a long distance coach / cafe (perhaps with BC) train eliminating personnel and saving the expense of a diner and crew -more like the Palmetto than the Meteor.

But the Meteor gets bulked up to look more like an A-T with 4-5 sleepers and a fully staffed dining car along with a new bag-dorm. Maybe this is one of the reasons Amtrak reduced their Viewliner bag-dorm order.


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## Rail Freak (Mar 27, 2015)

This could be another reason for Time Table delays! (Just A Thought)


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## afigg (Mar 27, 2015)

Palmland said:


> I suspect this has much to do about reducing expenses, not about improving service. The Star becomes a long distance coach / cafe (perhaps with BC) train eliminating personnel and saving the expense of a diner and crew -more like the Palmetto than the Meteor.
> 
> But the Meteor gets bulked up to look more like an A-T with 4-5 sleepers and a fully staffed dining car along with a new bag-dorm. Maybe this is one of the reasons Amtrak reduced their Viewliner bag-dorm order.


But the Silver Star is an overnight train which serves Raleigh, Columbia SC, and Tampa. which the Meter does not do. The Star also has a longer route than the Meteor.

Finally, the House just passed a multi-year re-authorization bill which maintains the entire LD network with acceptable annual funding levels to keep it running, so long as Congress appropriates in each FY amounts close to the levels authorized in the bill. The re-authorization bill still has to be passed by the Senate with its own version and then presumably back through the House, but the Amtrak LD network has survived the acid test for support on Capitol Hill.

So a wholesale cut of service for the Silver Star does not make sense. There is a simpler explanation. The sky is not falling (not yet anyway).


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## jebr (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah, I doubt the sky is falling. (Though I've been wrong before.)

It's probably some sort of re-tooling that went wrong. Maybe for the new Viewliner IIs, maybe some upgrade to the server, or something else. (Maybe they'll be dropping a sleeper, though removing it entirely seems stupid.)


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## DryCreek (Mar 27, 2015)

jebr said:


> Yeah, I doubt the sky is falling. (Though I've been wrong before.)
> 
> It's probably some sort of re-tooling that went wrong. Maybe for the new Viewliner IIs, maybe some upgrade to the server, or something else. (Maybe they'll be dropping a sleeper, though removing it entirely seems stupid.)


Well, I heard from a Conductor Trainee* that they were holding all equipment used on that route until they could get all-matching paint schemes.

* - on a Disney fan forum, this would be the equivalent of saying that you heard a rumor from one of the bus drivers.


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## Bus Nut (Mar 28, 2015)

DryCreek said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I doubt the sky is falling. (Though I've been wrong before.)
> ...


Maybe one of their contract bus drivers, an off-duty Lynx driver perhaps? :giggle:

Could "upcoming adjustments" mean time card changes significant enough to alter potential travel plans? That was my first thought.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 28, 2015)

Bus Nut said:


> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> > jebr said:
> ...


But they're still selling coach seats, so that wouldn't make sense.


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## xyzzy (Mar 28, 2015)

The Silver Star and the Silver Meteor differ in their passenger mix. Many Meteor passengers ride between NEC points and Florida points. The Star tends to be heavy New York - Raleigh and heavy intra-Florida but light between Raleigh and Jacksonville. That's not always true but it often is.

In addition, CSX has often sought to downgrade track and eliminate signals between Cary, NC and Fairfax, SC. The Star is the only thing that prevents CSX from doing so. I can't imagine that CSX has any enthusiasm to install PTC Cary-Fairfax.

Without starting rumors, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Star's sleepers moved to the Meteor. Nor would I be surprised to see the Palmetto re-converted to the Silver Palm and extended south of Savannah, using the Star's sleepers and diner. Nor would I be surprised to see the Star split into two day trains, one from Raleigh northward and the other from Jacksonville southward. The only stations that would be sacrificed in such a split are Southern Pines, Hamlet, Camden, Columbia, and Denmark. Of those, only Columbia has significant population -- but one can argue that a single train calling at 2 am and 4 am isn't much for Columbia to lose.


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## 2.0 (Mar 28, 2015)

DryCreek said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I doubt the sky is falling. (Though I've been wrong before.)
> ...


I wonder if this is the same bus driver that mentioned that the old Viewliners sleepers were scheduled to be temporarily taken out of service for a much needed "refreshing" when the new Viewliner II sleepers came into service. The Viewliner II sleeper scheduled delivery has been delayed over the years, but the "refreshing" schedule was never adjusted to match. So, we're seeing the old Viewliners being taken out-of-service without the new Viewliners ready to backfill.

You know, I don't trust bus driver rumors, but it does sound like a very Amtrak'ish thing to do.


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2015)

xyzzy said:


> The Silver Star and the Silver Meteor differ in their passenger mix. Many Meteor passengers ride between NEC points and Florida points. The Star tends to be heavy New York - Raleigh and heavy intra-Florida but light between Raleigh and Jacksonville. That's not always true but it often is.
> 
> In addition, CSX has often sought to downgrade track and eliminate signals between Cary, NC and Fairfax, SC. The Star is the only thing that prevents CSX from doing so. I can't imagine that CSX has any enthusiasm to install PTC Cary-Fairfax.
> 
> Without starting rumors, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Star's sleepers moved to the Meteor. Nor would I be surprised to see the Palmetto re-converted to the Silver Palm and extended south of Savannah, using the Star's sleepers and diner. Nor would I be surprised to see the Star split into two day trains, one from Raleigh northward and the other from Jacksonville southward. The only stations that would be sacrificed in such a split are Southern Pines, Hamlet, Camden, Columbia, and Denmark. Of those, only Columbia has significant population -- but one can argue that a single train calling at 2 am and 4 am isn't much for Columbia to lose.


I was thinking something very similar myself. Doesn't sound like a half bad plan.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 28, 2015)

RyanS said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > The Silver Star and the Silver Meteor differ in their passenger mix. Many Meteor passengers ride between NEC points and Florida points. The Star tends to be heavy New York - Raleigh and heavy intra-Florida but light between Raleigh and Jacksonville. That's not always true but it often is.
> ...


Well, I would respectfully disagree. How would the folks from Raleigh to Denmark go south to Florida?

jb


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2015)

I object because I live in this section of line. Columbia generally boards about eighty people in both trains every night. With an equal amount coming off (80 is the confined number). Besides amtrak already has a day train from RGH.


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## acelafan (Mar 28, 2015)

I'd hate to see any Amtrak LD train lose sleeping service unless there is a thoughtful and improved subsequent service - but no matter how you slice it some customers would lose out.


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## xyzzy (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't disagree that there would be impacts, but I truly believe Cary-Fairfax is doomed to become unsignaled FRA Class II track regardless of the consequences. The Star was nearly pulled off this line 15 years ago. Maybe it happens this year, maybe 5 years, maybe 10 -- but it's inevitable. Or looking at it differently, the next hurricane that washes out this line will force the question.

What might make South Carolinians happier is a day train Greenville (or Spartanburg) - Columbia - Charleston, but South Carolina would have to fund it just as North Carolina has.

It's true that NC already has a day train from Raleigh north, but NC provides funding for the Carolinian not just the Piedmonts. SC doesn't pay squat. Maybe you don't always get what you pay for, but you rarely get what you don't pay for.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2015)

Now if we added a day train up the S Line. I think ridership would increase between all points


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## Chaz (Mar 28, 2015)

Here's a post from the Trains Magazine forum (Passenger Forum) Friday night the 27th

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/245879.aspx

Still cryptic eh?

*"Got this reply from a source at Trains.*


'Thank you for your inquiry, which was forwarded. Please see the following response author Bob Johnston:

(Amtrak spokesman) Marc Magliari told me that Silver Star sleeping car inventory has been temporarily withdrawn from Arrow “connected with equipment manipulation” and it will be put back for all departures within the next couple of days. No plans to drop the service.
Sincerely',

(The posterr added")
*Now what in the world is " Equipment manipulation " ?*
------------------------------
A slightly different answer was posted at TrainOrders: last bight as well:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3701085

"I saw on another site that Amtrak responded to someone that ;...the corporate office is currently holding the sale of sleepers due to some upcoming adjustments.' It was from an Amtrak representative.

So, what does that mean? Apparently "corporate" is not adjusting coaches. Just sleepers."


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## Palmland (Mar 28, 2015)

Don't write off the SAL line thru Columbia. Lots of customers in Columbia area that funnel out to Hamlet on a daily 100 car daily freight with haz mat included. Several locals in all segments plus unit coal trains from Columbia (from eastern KY) heading south via Fairfax/ SAV, CSX just completed a track maintenance program north of Columbia incl some new rail.

But, yes a day train like the Palmetto from Columbia to NEC would be good. Of course we once had that: SAL's Palmland.


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## Dental Wiz (Mar 28, 2015)

Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com. They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015 on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.

That's it folks, directly from Amtrak.


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## chrsjrcj (Mar 28, 2015)

Dental Wiz said:


> Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com.* They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015* on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.
> 
> That's it folks, directly from Amtrak.


Not gonna lie, just reading that sentence stopped my heart until I got to computer glitch, then I still had to re-read the sentence to make sure I was reading it correctly.


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## Palmetto (Mar 29, 2015)

And Ryan can now say: "See, I told you so!"


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## PRR 60 (Mar 29, 2015)

Dental Wiz said:


> Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com. They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015 on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.
> 
> That's it folks, directly from Amtrak.


"Computer Glitch" is a catch-all term for all kinds of issues and actions that typically have nothing to do with actual data processing. It's an answer that is designed to send the questioner away.

For some reason they have pulled the sleeper inventory from 91 & 92 starting July 1. It's possible that they hope to introduce the new Viewliner sleepers on that train and want to ensure the inventory and description reflects the reduced number of sleepers and the lack of in-room toilets in the roomettes. Maybe they want to drop the sleepers at Tampa, and run coach-only between TPA and MIA since the route to MIA is already covered by the Meteor (that would save a set of sleepers, but would strand sleepers where there is presently no servicing). It is also possible that we have no clue why they did this, and maybe never will. Sometimes Amtrak acts in mysterious ways. One thing I don't think is that it is a "computer glitch" affecting just some trips of one train and they are taking days to clear it.


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## afigg (Mar 29, 2015)

Dental Wiz said:


> Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com. They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015 on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.
> 
> That's it folks, directly from Amtrak.


I buy this explanation as far more plausible over many of the ideas posted previously in this thread. We will see if the Silver Star roomettes and bedrooms are restored for sale after July 1 on Monday or Tuesday. For those planning to take the Star after July 1, the "outage" may provide an opportunity to book roomettes and bedrooms at a lower price right after they go back on sale, before the room sales push the price into the upper buckets.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 29, 2015)

That's what I'm hoping. Snag a roomette for cheep


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## Terry (Mar 29, 2015)

Dental Wiz said:


> Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com. They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015 on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.
> 
> That's it folks, directly from Amtrak.


If it's a computer glitch, it's taking them a very long time to correct it. On February 28, when we purchased our November NYP to HOL accomodations, trains 91 & 92 were being shown as sold out for months at that time. And Yes, We are snowbirds.


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## prech786 (Mar 30, 2015)

Terry said:


> Dental Wiz said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding this issue, I contacted Amtrak customer service through Amtrak.com. They promptly responded that the elimination of the sleeping car service on trains 91/92 from July 1, 2015 on was a computer "glitch" in the system and that they're working to restore it. They instructed me to check back periodically.
> ...


FYI: This was Posted on TrainOrders today; 3/30/15.

_I received a response to my inquiry to Amtrak about the sleepers on 92 being listed as "none left" beginning July 1: _

_"Thank you for contacting us regarding train 92. __Sleeper accommodations on train 92 will be closed from July 1, 2015 - Jan. 31, 2016 because pricing _ [underlining mine] _adjustments are being made." _

_I am intrigued by the English used ... the tense used ("will be" as opposed to "are") implies something quite ominous - no sleeper service in that period? _


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## Ryan (Mar 30, 2015)

No, there is not going to be "no sleeper service in that period", all one has to do is ready the whole sentence.


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## SarahZ (Mar 30, 2015)

prech786 said:


> Terry said:
> 
> 
> > Dental Wiz said:
> ...


That means they will be closed off to bookings until the price adjustments are completed.


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## Palmland (Mar 30, 2015)

Wonder if it's a pilot program to test bookings/ customer acceptance for lower sleeper fares but meals not included. Compare results (with common end points) with the Meteor during that period.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 30, 2015)

Amtrak is only interested in increasing revenue and cutting costs, not in decreasing fares, so don't look for the concept of slumber coaches to return!

If anything the buckets will probably Increase during busy periods to/from Florida, with the " deals" only happening during slow periods which seem to be fewer and fewer now a days!


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## StriderGDM (Mar 30, 2015)

Gawd, did I stumble upon conspiracy.net somewhere along the line?


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 30, 2015)

StriderGDM said:


> Gawd, did I stumble upon conspiracy.net somewhere along the line?


Nah, just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who have no idea what they're talking about.


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## printman2000 (Apr 1, 2015)

Posted by Gene Poon on a list. He tends to have some insider information...



> Okay...the ongoing rumor mill (heard from more than one place so now I can say so...the first source said not to
> 
> discuss) says that effective July 1, the Silver Star is being cut to one sleeper and no diner.
> 
> ...


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 1, 2015)

printman2000 said:


> Posted by Gene Poon on a list. He tends to have some insider information...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That could be a bit tricky. I can see the cafe car running out of food.

jb


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## keelhauled (Apr 1, 2015)

Also from what I read elsewhere the CONO will go to single level equipment, and its Superliners shuffled out west (possibly for a sixth Empire Builder trainset, which would make sense if BNSF is going to wreck havoc on its schedule this summer). The Star's diners and sleepers will presumably go to the CONO. What I don't quite understand is where they'd get single level coaches for the CONO. Unless they keep Superliner coaches and run a transition sleeper, maybe as a crew dorm so they don't have to muck about with selling Viewliner and Superliner rooms both on the same train. Of course maybe that way you don't get another Builder trainset and the CONO's sleepers just add capacity for the summer out west.

It seems to me like, if true, this kind of puts an end to the hope of bringing the Palmetto back to Florida, since the role of a coach train to Florida would be filled by the revised Star.


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## acelafan (Apr 1, 2015)

printman2000 said:


> Posted by Gene Poon on a list. He tends to have some insider information...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But it's April Fools! Right?


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## PRR 60 (Apr 1, 2015)

acelafan said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Posted by Gene Poon on a list. He tends to have some insider information...
> ...


It is April Fools day, but this info is not an April Fools joke. It may or may not be true, but it is what Gene has heard from multiple sources.


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## jis (Apr 2, 2015)

An associated rumor says that the surplus from Silver Star will be used to convert the CONO to single level releasing Supers for beefing up western LD consists. The released Diners from the Star will go to Cardinal and CONO.

Of course this is just temporary pending the arrival of the new VL2 Sleepers and Diners.


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## Bus Nut (Apr 2, 2015)

On RR.net they are predicting a Star truncated at Savannah. :giggle:


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## jis (Apr 2, 2015)

Bus Nut said:


> On RR.net they are predicting a Star truncated at Savannah. :giggle:


Haven't heard that rumor from any usually reliable source yet.
At present it is in only this Arlington guy's fantasy/speculation based on his reading of the performance reports AFAICT.


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm not sure where Gene got this one, but I think it may actually trace back to...er...me.

Ok, not me personally. I heard it from the OBS on the Star and put in a call to a friend to get a confirm/deny on it before I said anything, and there was another AUer (whose username I forget) who was there as well. I haven't heard back yet either way, or I'd have been posting in a panic about this. But since the cat is out of the bag...yeah, I've heard this as well.

Just to clarify, this isn't an April Fools' joke...and the sad thing is that it makes sense (I've been crunching the numbers in my mind on this a bit): You net out 3-4 roomettes on the Star for the diner crew and you get extra space on the Meteor (which has higher PPR, albeit likely due to the Star's PPR being diluted by Tampa-Miami traffic).


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## Ryan (Apr 2, 2015)

The CONO to go single level has been rumored for a long time, and the question was always "where is the single level equipment going to come from?"

I guess that the Superliner situation is so dire that they need this equipment now, and they can accept a temporarily reduced Star with the VL2 deliveries actually becoming reality. Perhaps this is why we saw this happen with the Stars sleepers late last year and they decided against doing this at that time.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 2, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> > Gawd, did I stumble upon conspiracy.net somewhere along the line?
> ...


 Followed by armchair referees admonishing them for daring to theorize in public without permission.


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## battalion51 (Apr 2, 2015)

Why would you convert the CONO and not the Capitol? If you convert the Capitol the future theoretical through cars to/from the Pennsylvanian would be much easier to accomplish since you don't need to transition down to single level. You get an equal number of sets since both the CONO and Capitol use three sets.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 2, 2015)

The cap is used to shuttle equipment for the auto train.


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## printman2000 (Apr 2, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> The cap is used to shuttle equipment for the auto train.


Shuttling Superliner equipment does not require Superliner equipment. A single level train can shuttle Superliners. I assume the Cardinal/Hoosier does it all the time.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 2, 2015)

If they are putting the CONO to single level. I would expect the same. Where you can't book a sleeper on it but you can. And doesn't the CONO train set turn as the Texas Eagle.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 2, 2015)

I understand that the Silver Star will be reconfigured to honor the old Georgia Railroad service out of Atlanta. It will be a mixed train with one coach that is neither heated nor air conditioned and is never cleaned. And my sources are as good as anybody else making predictions around here.


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## ScottRu (Apr 2, 2015)

I just made my annual reservations for the Meteor next January... no problem getting my usual accommodations.


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## NE933 (Apr 2, 2015)

All this doesn't make sense, given there are more sleepers coming on line, though not right away. Sorry if this wasn't mentioned already: could it be that Amtrak is blocking out / reducing the Silver Star sleepers to allow larger batches of them to be upgraded to the targeted 125mph as well as the roomette modifications? Although this obviously kinda screws Tampa, it is operationally the best plan to do this because the New York City to Miami route has some redundancy which provides a sleeper option on at least one train. Also, Auburndale to Tampa leg adds around four hours, multiplied by thirty days a month comes out to one hundred twenty hours a month, or approximately five extra days per Viewliner I car, that Hialeah has to do the necessary work.

There is a counter intuitive aspect to this plan, in that it should've been done during a non-peak time, not the summer.


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2015)

Alright, the best stuff I have (which admittedly may not be much) is as follows (and I cannot disclose my source...as is the case way too often with this stuff...though I can be honest and say that the information did _not_ originate at NARP and that the source is as trustworthy as any I've heard):
-Amtrak is planning to drop a sleeper from the Star and flip it to the Meteor. Capacity to Florida is at worst unchanged (they might even net a few roomettes on the shift).

-Amtrak is also dropping the diner. In connection with this, the sleeper fares on the Star will drop vis-a-vis the Meteor.

-This is being done as an "eliminate the losses" move...or, possibly, a "show we cannot eliminate the losses" move. The jury is out on whether Amtrak expects this to work (and have an A-train/B-train operation going to/from Florida) or backfire (and therefore justify accounting games with the diners). My best guess is that management is of two minds on this one.

As to the train being neither heated nor air conditioned nor cleaned and being a mixed train, c'mon...nobody put Warrington in charge of this project!


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## jis (Apr 2, 2015)

I don't believe that the VL1 upgrade project is currently funded. Have you found any evidence that it is?


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 2, 2015)

Very interesting Cliff! And a Big Mistake IMO! Running LD Trains without a Diner is right out of the 60s Run 'em off Playbook spearheaded by SP!!

Wonder if the Diner will be moved to the Cardinal and the Diner-Lite to the Star if the rumors about the CONO switching to Single Level Consists isn't true?


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## SteveSFL (Apr 3, 2015)

Family bedroom is still bookable on the CONO out to Feb 2016. None of those on single level trains.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 3, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Wonder if the Diner will be moved to the Cardinal and the Diner-Lite to the Star if the rumors about the CONO switching to Single Level Consists isn't true?


As far as I know all Amfleet II Lounges are now set up as Diner Lite cars so the Star already has one. The question will be how the car is operated... and it could be that's what Amtrak is trying to decide right now.


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## GuestChooChoo (Apr 3, 2015)

We should have answers by mid to late next week. Lots of rumors running rampant among OBS, all of which have been thoroughly covered here. Something is definitely afoot in Miami... h34r:


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## Bus Nut (Apr 3, 2015)

The interesting thing about this is that the Star and the Meteor are redundant if you're doing a Florida to NEC (or reverse) trip. Not so much if you need a stop in NC, SC, GA or parts of Southern VA. But since they run through that territory overnight, the stop level activity is probably not that great (except for Savannah, GA, where the Palmetto terminates). I guess the question is whether there's a market for a sleeper without diner on an overnight train like that, or if everyone will pile onto the Meteor (which IMO has better times if you're doing the overnight) and the Star will be dominated by shorter trips. The problem with THAT is that Amtrak makes less money on short trips.

It is kind of the perfect demonstration case because they can show a before and after and they won't be putting that many customers out. Of course, that's assuming management doesn't back away from the plan at the last minute and just leave things status quo.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2015)

SteveSTX said:


> Family bedroom is still bookable on the CONO out to Feb 2016. None of those on single level trains.


I actually do not believe the CONO rumor for a moment. I believe it to be an armchair speculation rumor given the available concrete info at this moment.


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## Anderson (Apr 3, 2015)

Jim,

I could see an experiment with the Cardinal happening. That would actually, IMHO, be a worthy experiment in some regards...especially seeing as the second sleeper on the Cardinal was a hit last year and apparently pushed the cafe to the breaking point.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 3, 2015)

I would be ok without a diner on a one-night train and the reduced price for the room. But then, I'm not as picky as some people on AU.


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## prech786 (Apr 3, 2015)

What am I missing here? Amtrak reduces the cost of sleeper space on the Star by eliminating meals. Wouldn’t that lower price typically drive up demand for space? But then the rumors are they will cut back the supply of rooms by removing one sleeper? Lower the price to increase demand but then reduce supply that then leads back to towards a higher average price. Seems to fail the ECON101 Supply/Demand test.

This assumes of course that the price of sleeper space contributes to a positive Net Income/Cash Flow by whatever “Accounting Method” Amtrak uses. If the Net Income/Cash Flow will be negative at the new price point by all means reduce the supply of money losing space. The Star's low sleeper price then becomes just a Marketing expense, loss-leader like gimmick.


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## peconicstation (Apr 3, 2015)

Remember this was a time when the Palmetto ran to Miami and Tampa as a coach train.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20020429n&item=0033

Prior to this there was a point when the Palmetto was extended to Jacksonville, then a time when it ran as a full service LD train to Tampa.

It was dropped from the schedule, and then came back as a NYP to Savannah day train, as it was in it's original Amtrak form.

Ken


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## Train2104 (Apr 3, 2015)

prech786 said:


> What am I missing here? Amtrak reduces the cost of sleeper space on the Star by eliminating meals. Wouldn’t that lower price typically drive up demand for space? But then the rumors are they will cut back the supply of rooms by removing one sleeper? Lower the price to increase demand but then reduce supply that then leads back to towards a higher average price. Seems to fail the ECON101 Supply/Demand test.
> 
> This assumes of course that the price of sleeper space contributes to a positive Net Income/Cash Flow by whatever “Accounting Method” Amtrak uses. If the Net Income/Cash Flow will be negative at the new price point by all means reduce the supply of money losing space. The Star's low sleeper price then becomes just a Marketing expense, loss-leader like gimmick.


They're probably betting on the lack of a dining car driving down demand.


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2015)

<assumption: rumor= true>

Which is a safe bet.

Also, the sleeper isn't going away, it's getting moved to the Meteor, so the supply side is unchanged for many city pairs (not all).

</assumption>


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## prech786 (Apr 3, 2015)

Train2104 said:


> prech786 said:
> 
> 
> > What am I missing here? Amtrak reduces the cost of sleeper space on the Star by eliminating meals. Wouldn’t that lower price typically drive up demand for space? But then the rumors are they will cut back the supply of rooms by removing one sleeper? Lower the price to increase demand but then reduce supply that then leads back to towards a higher average price. Seems to fail the ECON101 Supply/Demand test.
> ...





RyanS said:


> <assumption: rumor= true>
> 
> Which is a safe bet.
> 
> ...


The vast majority of today’s travelers are price sensitive not amenity sensitive. If the price point is correct demand will go up. If it doesn’t, it wasn’t priced right. It's not that the customers are holding out for a “free” steak.

No one I think is talking about a “foodless” 28-hr Silver Star trip. Rumor mill suggests a café/lounge type service. I assume like SSL and Lake Shore Ltd. café/lounge type food. Again if the price were right plenty of sleeper customers would be satisfied paying for a Salad, Cheeseburger or Pan Pizza and Soda or a Breakfast sandwich, yogurt, coffee & juice. Count me in here, LOL.

Adding an extra sleeper to the Meteor at its higher “all inclusive food” price really wouldn’t keep the “supply” the same if there were a cheaper priced sleeper alternative, i.e. Silver Star, to the same destination. It seems analogous to an airline dropping a coach flight and adding two all First Class flights and saying the “supply” is the same because the number of seats is the same. Quite a few of the coach customers would probably forego the trip, or find an alternate, rather than pay the amenity rich First Class fares. IMO that's the "discounted" Silver Star sleeper demand crowd.


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2015)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Amtrak is doing like dropping a coach flight and adding two first class flights. They're moving a full amenity sleeping car from one train to another. For most city pairs, the only thing different is the schedule.

The other sleeping car will have reduced amenities and be cheaper to reflect that.

I'm not sure what's so complicated about it.


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## Christine Yurgaites (Apr 3, 2015)

Whatever the issue (managerial, operational, political), it needs to be resolved and if customer participation is required to resolve it, we need direction. My husband and I are frequent rail (as opposed to air) passengers mostly by choice, somewhat by necessity. Any LD train without sleepers would not be possible for us as I suspect would be the case with many others.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 3, 2015)

Christine Yurgaites said:


> Whatever the issue (managerial, operational, political), it needs to be resolved and if customer participation is required to resolve it, we need direction. My husband and I are frequent rail (as opposed to air) passengers mostly by choice, somewhat by necessity. Any LD train without sleepers would not be possible for us as I suspect would be the case with many others.


There will be a sleeper on the Star. But only one, not two. And no diner but the usual cafe car.


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## Philip Frank (Apr 3, 2015)

I have roomette reservations on both 91 & 92, late August and early September (I purchased them in mid-February). While my ticket's been updated three times recently due to schedule changes, I haven't (yet) been told that my sleeper accommodations are going away. The current rumor that there will only be one sleeper could explain why I've not needed to be told that I won't have my expected accommodations. That there won't be a full diner is discouraging however, The Star's schedule fit my agenda much better than the Meteor's. But I'd consider switching trains if it meant having snack car food, otherwise.

Phil


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2015)

You haven't been told anything because there's nothing to tell yet. Just rumors at this point.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 3, 2015)

How do we know there's nothing to tell? The never ending arrogance from a handful of backseat moderators is getting really old. Nobody needs your permission to discuss this or any other topic.


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2015)

Who is saying that they need permission to discuss something?

He speculated why he hadn't been notified of a dropped sleeper, I provided a reason.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 3, 2015)

we can discuss real stuff or we can just make up stuff. Personally I like discussions based on facts, not rumors or somebody's second idea of what might happen.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 3, 2015)

Amtrak has a long history of sitting on important information from which customers could have benefited if only they knew about it sooner. It is entirely possible to caution against runaway assumptions without being overbearing and rude. These days we seem to be acting as though this forum was the official mouthpiece of some inner circle rather than an inclusive discussion that welcomed respectful commentary from all members. Maybe mild bullying and dogpile tactics passes for civilized discourse in the Northeast, but I really don't see the point of bringing that sort of attitude into a fan forum.


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2015)

Lighten up, you're jumping at shadows dude.

I do find it amusing that you accuse others of backseat moderation, while doing the same yourself. If there are specific posts you take issue with, I suggest you report them and let the staff deal with it.


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## pennyk (Apr 3, 2015)

Here is some "front seat" moderation: Please do not snipe at each other. Apparently this thread is full of rumor and speculation and everyone should take everything you read here with "a grain of salt." Thanks.

Some of the speculation/rumors are from individuals who may or may not have inside information, but it appears that there is no official public announcement from Amtrak at this time. I am sure as soon as Amtrak makes an official public announcement, it will be posted.


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## VentureForth (Apr 4, 2015)

...and at that time, confirmed ticket holders will be advised...again...


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

I don't think the proper comparison is axing coach flights and adding all-first-class flights; I think the proper comparison would be an airline running two flights on a route that are coach-and-international first and one that is coach-and-domestic first and charging, to at least some extent, accordingly.

There's also a behavioral difference between the two trains that I have noticed: The Star will regularly pack on 30-50 passengers going north from Richmond (it basically behaves as a mid-day northbound Regional in some respects here) and the southbound discharge figures aren't far off from this. Raleigh gets a good deal of turnover as well. On the southern end, the train is known to do a lot of turnover at Orlando/Tampa.

As to only running one sleeper, the issue there is that the cafe would probably be overwhelmed by the passengers from two sleepers (assuming that meals are still included...something that I expect would be retained in some fashion, even if it was some sort of "meal voucher" in the cafe). The Cardinal has run into this issue over the last year, I believe. If they ran two sleepers (or even bumped the train to three sleepers with the new equipment order) they would need the diner to deal with the food demand (though a case would probably exist for trying the "Diner-Club" idea that Amtrak floated in the PIPs...basically, run the train with only a dining car but have an "all-day menu" available outside of the main mealtimes) since a single cafe attendant can only handle but so much traffic (and I've seen some pretty impressive lines in the cafe at mealtimes in an SSL).

I would, FWIW, hope that there would be some effort made to at least slightly bump up the food selections in the cafe (I'm not quite sure how, but something akin to the Cascades service would cut it).


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## jis (Apr 4, 2015)

Interestingly when United runs International Business First hard product on domestic routes they charge the same for it as they charge for the domestic First hard product. The soft product on domestic legs is the same as domestic First irrespective of what hard product underlies it. OTOH on special domestic upper class products like the PS service they essentially use the international BF hard product with an enhanced soft product which sort of resembles the international BF product but not quite completely.

This I suppose has some bearing on the endless discussion of the myriads of BC hard and soft products that Amtrak provides all under the BC name. At least the Sleeper product both hard and soft is pretty consistent except perhaps for the Autotrain, definitely in terms of the hard product and mostly in terms of the soft product except in CS and Autotrain.

Incidentally I am using the terms "hard product" and "soft product" in the way it is used in the airline industry. Basically "hard product" is the hardware Cabin, seats and such), and "soft product" is the service provided (food, pillows, blanket, massage etc.) using the hardware.


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## Train2104 (Apr 4, 2015)

Anderson said:


> As to only running one sleeper, the issue there is that the cafe would probably be overwhelmed by the passengers from two sleepers (assuming that meals are still included...something that I expect would be retained in some fashion, even if it was some sort of "meal voucher" in the cafe). The Cardinal has run into this issue over the last year, I believe. If they ran two sleepers (or even bumped the train to three sleepers with the new equipment order) they would need the diner to deal with the food demand (though a case would probably exist for trying the "Diner-Club" idea that Amtrak floated in the PIPs...basically, run the train with only a dining car but have an "all-day menu" available outside of the main mealtimes) since a single cafe attendant can only handle but so much traffic (and I've seen some pretty impressive lines in the cafe at mealtimes in an SSL).


Do you think there's a nontrivial risk of the Meteor's diner not being able to handle a fourth sleeper, or is there sufficient capacity available?


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

That's a good point...even on the Regionals, the hard product of BC can vary (technically coach can as well; I was on 66/67 once back at Thanksgiving and though I got stuck in coach, BC being sold out, I was put in one of the renovated BC cars for a "normal" Regional. I've also been on a few Regionals where a cafe had the 2-1 seats (and have generally had luck asking the OBS for permission to move from the "actual" BC to the 2-1 seating).

My biggest concern is that, with a few very narrow exceptions, the hard and soft products on sleeper trains are pretty close to standard (the Auto Train is an oddball, but the Auto Train is also specifically marketed and doesn't connect with anything else). The exceptions of the Starlight (with the PPC) and the Cardinal (with a lack of a proper diner) aren't problematic...but the Starlight also gets special marketing for the PPC, really leaving the Cardinal as the stand-out...but with only a single sleeper running 3x weekly, also not a service likely to have much impact on Amtrak's brand. Making a hash of the Silver Star could cause issues for the sleeper service's branding, so to speak.

Back on the BC front, I agree that Amtrak needs to do a far better job of handling the branding there. Whether they resurrect a "Custom Class", "Club Class", or "Parlor Class" name or do something different isn't really relevant, but they really do need to work to standardize BC into one or two "products" (possibly one on the extended NEC and one elsewhere or one on short-haul trains and one on long-haul trains).

I do think this manages to (for good or ill) raise the prospect of a two-tier sleeper product (akin to VIA's distinction between "Sleeper" and "Sleeper Plus"). For what it's worth, there _was_ a similar situation back in the late 1990s/early 2000s (for a time the Silver Palm/Palmetto, Three Rivers, and Twilight Shoreliner all ran with a sleeper but no diner), so these antics _should _be survivable...but it would probably do Amtrak some merit to look into a differentiation, particularly in light of the resurrection of the Twilight Shoreliner and/or the Cap-Pennsylvanian cars.


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

Train2104 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > As to only running one sleeper, the issue there is that the cafe would probably be overwhelmed by the passengers from two sleepers (assuming that meals are still included...something that I expect would be retained in some fashion, even if it was some sort of "meal voucher" in the cafe). The Cardinal has run into this issue over the last year, I believe. If they ran two sleepers (or even bumped the train to three sleepers with the new equipment order) they would need the diner to deal with the food demand (though a case would probably exist for trying the "Diner-Club" idea that Amtrak floated in the PIPs...basically, run the train with only a dining car but have an "all-day menu" available outside of the main mealtimes) since a single cafe attendant can only handle but so much traffic (and I've seen some pretty impressive lines in the cafe at mealtimes in an SSL).
> ...


That's sorta down to the staff. They _ought_ to be able to handle it so long as they make absolutely sure to keep a 48-seater assigned to the Meteor (2.5 seatings on a 48-seat diner is 120 seats; 4 sleepers would max out at 120 passengers pre-conversion (assuming 2 per roomette and 2 per bedroom) or 112 post-conversion (one roomette per sleeper lost to the bathrooms). Using a slightly more realistic factor of 1.5/roomette and 2/bedroom and you get 22.5/sleeper (90 overall). If the dining staff cannot accommodate 90 passengers for dinner, the dining staff has a problem.

The question of how many coach pax they can fit in is an open one, but you should be able to fit in 20-30 all the same. Frankly it would behoove Amtrak to establish a "shall serve" policy (i.e. that as long as there is food available, the diner staff shall seat coach passengers in the diner even if they have to run late for it).


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 4, 2015)

The dining car on the Meteor is a tight fit as it is. I and quite a few others found ourselves waiting in the cafe car for an open spot during breakfast on my last trip. And this was with only 3 coaches (yes, I noticed more than a few passengers paying for meals).


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## OBS (Apr 4, 2015)

If the dining car is staffed properly, ie 2 people in kitchen, LSA and 2 waiters, there will be no problem accommodating additional passengers...


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

I'd like to say those comments were really helpful. I'd LIKE to say that, but alas. Oh well. Nice try I guess.


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## Palmland (Apr 4, 2015)

OBS has got it right. It's not the number of diners, its the staff that handles large crowds. Long ago, Seaboard's all Pullman Orange Blossom Special had 12 Pullmans, two Pullman lounges, and one dining car. Its staff: Steward, chef, second, third and fourth cooks and five waiters. OI course then only the finest ingredients and everything made from scratch. Even though today's food may be packaged and nuked, you can still get faster and better service with more waiters. Faster service means more customers in the same amount of time. But of course labor is no longer inexpensive.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 4, 2015)

OBS said:


> If the dining car is staffed properly, ie 2 people in kitchen, LSA and 2 waiters, there will be no problem accommodating additional passengers...


True. Based on my experience on the Silvers lately it's been 1 Chef, 1 LSA, and 1 waiter. If the Star loses its diner, maybe the Meteor gets a larger crew.


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

Palmland said:


> OBS has got it right. It's not the number of diners, its the staff that handles large crowds. Long ago, Seaboard's all Pullman Orange Blossom Special had 12 Pullmans, two Pullman lounges, and one dining car. Its staff: Steward, chef, second, third and fourth cooks and five waiters. OI course then only the finest ingredients and everything made from scratch. Even though today's food may be packaged and nuked, you can still get faster and better service with more waiters. Faster service means more customers in the same amount of time. But of course labor is no longer inexpensive.


Well, and some of it is also down to crew will and skill and equipping the diner properly in the kitchen. VIA can handle up to about 10 sleeping cars on a single diner (though 10 is their absolute limit), but that's presumably with some spaces not being used in those sleepers, the diner slammed to the max, meals being included with your ticket, and negligible coach traffic to account for. The other thing to remember is that on the old trains, there were doubtless some customers who did not eat dinner in the diner at all meals (maybe they opted for the lounge for something light instead). I do recognize that the Orange Blossom Special basically operated like a version of the Auto Train in some respects, running non-stop from (IIRC) Richmond to either Savannah or Jacksonville.

I will say that, absent space/time constraints, today the diners seem to attract about 95% of sleeper passengers and 15-25% of coach passengers at most meals (a bit lower at dinner and higher at breakfast/lunch on the coach side). If there are 200 passenger in coach, I'd expect 30-50 to opt for the diner. This is roughly in keeping with what Amtrak noticed with the Lake Shore Limited's PIP (coach passengers making up about half of the traffic in the diner but skewing towards paying less). Considering that the sleeper side of the train tends to be a lot smaller in terms of passenger count, if skewing towards longer-distance passengers, than the coach side (the only train that sort-of breaks this rule is the Auto Train due to its end-to-end nature and all meals being included).

Honestly, with meals included I think the effective maximum number of sleepers that could be accommodated in a single diner would be about six unless you run a train (or at least one of the diners) as all-sleeper (at which point I'd bump this estimate to 7-8). This assumes good staffing and equipping of the diner, though, something that Amtrak may not be set up for. Mind you this is only for a single-level train...with a bilevel train the limit is a bit lower (the Auto Train seems to define the limit here pretty well...IIRC they usually have six sleepers, but two of them are the lower-capacity "Deluxe Sleepers"...so basically you're probably able to handle about 5.5 sleepers on a bilevel train with a single dining car if there's no spill-over from coach)


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Well, and some of it is also down to crew will and skill and equipping the diner properly in the kitchen. VIA can handle up to about 10 sleeping cars on a single diner (though 10 is their absolute limit), but that's presumably with some spaces not being used in those sleepers, the diner slammed to the max, meals being included with your ticket, and negligible coach traffic to account for. The other thing to remember is that on the old trains, there were doubtless some customers who did not eat dinner in the diner at all meals (maybe they opted for the lounge for something light instead). I do recognize that the Orange Blossom Special basically operated like a version of the Auto Train in some respects, running non-stop from (IIRC) Richmond to either Savannah or Jacksonville.


I think that the VIA ratio is 5 to 6 sleepers to a dining car. I know my Canadian had 2 dining cars just for the sleepers and IIRC, we had something like 12 sleepers. And consider that the sleeper cars on the Canadian have a lower passenger capacity than Amtrak's Viewliner's. Not to mention that they have no crew dorm, which means that in most sleepers, at least 2 rooms (if not 3) are given over to crew. One goes to the attendant, the others to OBS crew. And coach pax are not allowed into the sleeper dining cars. So all of that does mean that they have fewer passengers to push through their dining cars.



Anderson said:


> Honestly, with meals included I think the effective maximum number of sleepers that could be accommodated in a single diner would be about six unless you run a train (or at least one of the diners) as all-sleeper (at which point I'd bump this estimate to 7-8). This assumes good staffing and equipping of the diner, though, something that Amtrak may not be set up for.


Personally I think you're pushing it with that many sleepers, unless Amtrak stops including meals. Otherwise I think 4, max 5, is the limit for a single level dining car.



Anderson said:


> Mind you this is only for a single-level train...with a bilevel train the limit is a bit lower (the Auto Train seems to define the limit here pretty well...IIRC they usually have six sleepers, but two of them are the lower-capacity "Deluxe Sleepers"...so basically you're probably able to handle about 5.5 sleepers on a bilevel train with a single dining car if there's no spill-over from coach)


But the AT used to do that with 1 dining car and half the lounge car for seating space. The kitchen could handle the load, but the seating capacity was the issue. Now I'm seeing reports that the only way that they can do it now with the loss of the sleeper lounge car is by having 4 seatings and really rushing people through the car. It used to be that they allowed for an hour & a half to feed the seating, with an half hour to reset for the next seating. Now they have to finish serving & eating within 1 hour so that they can reset the diner for the next seating. And based upon one recent report, I have to wonder if the kitchen is now able to handle the demand within the time allotted.

For a train that charges a premium and deals with so many snow birds, this plus the loss of amenities isn't sitting too well. I've seen several rumblings, including a recent one on OTOL, about people reconsidering just driving instead of the train.


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

You're slightly off in terms of VIA:

(1) I was on a Canadian with 10 sleepers and one diner back in February. Per the OBS, 10 sleepers is where they break to a second diner. Remember, adding a diner is a heavy "step cost" (i.e. one cannot add half a diner).

(2) I'll partly grant the point on sleeper capacity (a 10-6 sleeper would in theory have a capacity of 22), but I qualify that heavily with the fact that a Viewliner carrying 30 passengers is a rather mythical beast (hence why I assume 1.5/roomette...you'll get some couples taking a roomette because of the cost, but roomettes are going to skew towards single passengers because of the space issues). Sleeper capacity is a bit lower on VIA, yes, but a Manor is a modified 4-6-4 with one open section taken out (the shower) and therefore has a capacity of 22; a Chateau had 8 single rooms, 2 double rooms, 1 triple room, and 3 sections for a capacity of 21. So when you look at the functional capacity of a Viewliner vis-a-vis either of VIA's offerings the numbers shake out in the same ballpark.

As to the Auto Train, IIRC the setup was that the sleepers used one diner with no spillover while the coaches had the diner plus table car. The problem therein was that they simultaneously axed a lounge while adding a coach, overloading the dining car on the coach side. My understanding is that the sleeper side of things was not affected _quite _as badly (they lost their dedicated lounge, which didn't go over so well, and there was a loss on the menu/wine and cheese front), though there was still some damage to be had.

I will say that if the Meteor went to a 5-6 sleeping car setup I'd favor adding a dedicated sleeper lounge (which would, like the PPC, offer a slightly varied meal set...I might actually just pull the PPC menu over for it, actually) to deal with those capacity issues.


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## Ryan (Apr 4, 2015)

On the one Auto Train trip we took, we were in sleepers and definitely sat in the half of the lounge car set aside for overflow. That was 2008(?).


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## jis (Apr 4, 2015)

Anderson said:


> You're slightly off in terms of VIA:
> 
> (1) I was on a Canadian with 10 sleepers and one diner back in February. Per the OBS, 10 sleepers is where they break to a second diner. Remember, adding a diner is a heavy "step cost" (i.e. one cannot add half a diner).


Maybe their standards have really gone downhill since the times I have been on the Canadian. But back then it was 6 max per Diner. I can only imagine the mayhem that must take place with 10 Sleepers to a Diner unless of course as you say, the Sleepers are half empty.
Also back then there were no Coach passengers in Sleeper Diners. They had their own food service car. Maybe that has also changed as part of the general downgrade of the Canadian

And finally, the OBS staff gets Sleeper space since they do not have a dorm car per se on the Canadian AFAICT.

Notwithstanding all that, I do not see more than 5 Viewliner Sleepers ever being served effectively by a single Viewliner Diner, no matter how much staff you stuff into it, unless you force significant amount of in room service or some form of buffet service.


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## AlanB (Apr 4, 2015)

Anderson said:


> You're slightly off in terms of VIA:
> 
> (1) I was on a Canadian with 10 sleepers and one diner back in February. Per the OBS, 10 sleepers is where they break to a second diner. Remember, adding a diner is a heavy "step cost" (i.e. one cannot add half a diner).


That must be new.



Anderson said:


> (2) I'll partly grant the point on sleeper capacity (a 10-6 sleeper would in theory have a capacity of 22), but I qualify that heavily with the fact that a Viewliner carrying 30 passengers is a rather mythical beast (hence why I assume 1.5/roomette...you'll get some couples taking a roomette because of the cost, but roomettes are going to skew towards single passengers because of the space issues). Sleeper capacity is a bit lower on VIA, yes, but a Manor is a modified 4-6-4 with one open section taken out (the shower) and therefore has a capacity of 22; a Chateau had 8 single rooms, 2 double rooms, 1 triple room, and 3 sections for a capacity of 21. So when you look at the functional capacity of a Viewliner vis-a-vis either of VIA's offerings the numbers shake out in the same ballpark.


I've seen many roomettes with two people in them, yes, there are many singles too. And again, you forget that on the Canadian the OBS crew takes up rooms in every sleeper further reducing their capacity.



Anderson said:


> As to the Auto Train, IIRC the setup was that the sleepers used one diner with no spillover while the coaches had the diner plus table car. The problem therein was that they simultaneously axed a lounge while adding a coach, overloading the dining car on the coach side. My understanding is that the sleeper side of things was not affected _quite _as badly (they lost their dedicated lounge, which didn't go over so well, and there was a loss on the menu/wine and cheese front), though there was still some damage to be had.


No, prior to the downgrade in service on the AT, unless sleeper ridership was low (same with coach too), they always utilized space in the lounge car to feed people. The lounge cars were specially modified just for that purpose. Probably the only time that they didn't use the extra seating in the lounge was during the little bit of off season that they actually have, where they drop to just 5 sleepers; 2 deluxe and 3 regular.


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2015)

At least when I took the AT (SB on Thanksgiving Friday 2013, for the record), there was little or no use of the lounges in the sleeper diner. Granted, all three seatings were pretty full, but there wasn't spillover.

On the Canadian that may be new, but IIRC they were hosting somewhere in the range of 100-120 passengers in the sleepers (I forget the total, but I _think_ it was 118). As far as I can tell, this would be the equivalent of about 6-7 Viewliners (assuming no dedicated dorm) and no coach pax in the sleeper.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 5, 2015)

I can't remember how many sleepers were on the train but when I took the Canadian about 2 years ago there was only one dining car and coach passengers were allowed to eat in it if space was available.


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## OBS (Apr 5, 2015)

In off season (winter months especially) there is often only one diner, thus coach passengers are served in there as well. Also sometimes in lieu of adding a second diner, they will use a skyline car for meal service to accommodate additional sleeper passengers ( and as a "diner" for coach passengers as well sometimes).


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 5, 2015)

When I last rode the Canadian in Feb. of 2014, thanks to a large group of railroaders that filled the sleepers, the consist was increased to 10 Sleepers with 2 Coaches, Bag Car, 2 Domes and the Park Car but only 1 Diner.

Some of the OBS, including Food Service staff, told me that this was their first duty since Christmas as they were layed off each Winter due to lower ridership resulting in shorter consists and lower staffing!

The Canadian uses a rotating reservation system ( early lunch and dinner the first day, later meals the next, etc. ) Everyone that wanted to eat in the Diner was able to and things went smoothly! ( I can't imagine not eating in the Diner for 4 Days and Nights if riding in Coach but they did have their own Dome/Food Service Car)


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## fulham (Apr 6, 2015)

One other discussion point...if the Star loses its diner, that means Amtrak will only need 11 low-level diners (4-Meteor, 4-Crescent, 3-LSL). That leaves 14 for backup, maintenance, etc. Should the Cardinal get one, that would add 2 or 3 more to the list, but I doubt Amtrak will put a full diner and crew on the Cardinal given that it would really increase its costs, unless they plan on having it go daily and increasing capacity. Question is, if the Star does lose its diner, what will Amtrak do with the 25 new Viewliner diners coming on-board?


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## jis (Apr 6, 2015)

The Star losing the Diner is an interim thing. It will get its Diner back when the new Diners come on line and the Card will get a Diner too. So there will not be any large spare pool of Diners sitting around.


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## chakk (Apr 6, 2015)

If Amtrak were to offer a mixed train with freight cars and a single coach, I'd make a special point to ride it. Last time I got to ride a mixed train was about 10 years ago between Alamosa and Antonito, Colorado,


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## Anderson (Apr 6, 2015)

chakk said:


> If Amtrak were to offer a mixed train with freight cars and a single coach, I'd make a special point to ride it. Last time I got to ride a mixed train was about 10 years ago between Alamosa and Antonito, Colorado,


What was the story behind _that_?

(No, really, I'm wondering just what would have triggered such a service. The only thing that comes to mind is something like a freight operator running an excursion and needing to do some sort of freight move at the same time.)

As to the diner situation, what Jis said is about right:

-The Cardinal should get a diner since the regular addition of a second sleeper is likely to put a huge amount of stress on the cafe/diner lite operation they have.

-The situation with the Star raises some interesting questions. I think we had all assumed that the Star would be going to three sleepers with the new equipment, but it seems increasingly plausible that the Meteor will go to five instead. Based on ridership patterns (discussed at length elsewhere), I'm wondering if we won't see the Meteor and Star running five sleepers and three in the winter, with the Star dropping back to two sleepers in the summer (the extra sleepers coming from some mix of the Pennsylvanian sleeper(s), the LSL, and possibly the Cardinal...all services see a hit to sleeper ridership in the winter which is notably missing on the Silvers. At least in Amtrak's shoes I'd want to experiment with this in January/February.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 6, 2015)

jis said:


> The Star losing the Diner is an interim thing. It will get its Diner back when the new Diners come on line and the Card will get a Diner too. So there will not be any large spare pool of Diners sitting around.


I wonder. Assuming the rumors are true and this is an experiment to see how a lower cost food service affects ridership, revenue and cost, what happens if it works? What if the impact on revenue is minimal while the F&B costs go way down? If that happens, I could see this plan being implemented on the Star permanently, and maybe even extended to other trains.
Joe Boardman has committed to eliminating F&B loses in five years (maybe four now). This could be one way to get to that goal. It would not be my way, but it's a way. The number of dining cars around sitting gathering dust might not be a factor in the final decision.


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## jis (Apr 6, 2015)

Maybe they can then use the Diners as lounge cars  They'd be a damn site better lounge cars than the Amtube lounges.


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## Anderson (Apr 6, 2015)

Jis,

That's not as crazy as it sounds. Just because you use two dining cars doesn't mean you have to staff them both identically. Staffing and operating one as a diner and the other as a lounge (_maybe_ +1 on the OBS side; call it a "lunch counter" car or "chuckwagon" or something like that) wouldn't be that nuts, and if you could find a way to coordinate the POS systems to cross-check who had which meal you could probably let sleeper pax pick from the two cars in the event of a slammed diner.

(Actually, if the Meteor somehow went up into the 6-sleeper range I'd probably run the diner as a seasonal "PPC-type" car; on the balance of options, until the Cardinal goes daily I'd probably trim it back to a single sleeper and cafe in the off-season...which _should_ allow for the needed cars to do this)


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## jis (Apr 6, 2015)

Thanks Anderson! I was actually thinking that somewhat seriously in spite of the smiley.


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## me_little_me (Apr 6, 2015)

For those who are commenting that the talk is just rumor, it exists only because Amtrak has chosen not to be more open. While it may be justified, lack of info makes for worried and unhappy customers.


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## Ryan (Apr 6, 2015)

The majority of customers already booked don't hang out on foamer boards and have no clue that anything may be amiss.


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## frankp01 (Apr 6, 2015)

> The majority of customers already booked don't hang out on foamer boards and have no clue anything may be amiss.

I can only speak for *this* customer. While I don't hang out on foamer boards, I do travel on Amtrak a fair amount. (I usually have about 14,000 guest reward points each year). I've learned that, whether it's a hotel booking or a rail fare, when booked ahead by a significant amount, it pays to monitor the room rate/rail fare, because it sometimes goes down. I got quite a refund last year when the room I'd booked on the Sunset Limited dropped by almost $400.

And so, I'd been monitoring the fare for our trip in August. That's how I happened to stumble on the 'missing sleepers': I couldn't find a fare to compare to my original one. And that's how I also happened to stumble on this discussion of why the sleepers may have gone missing.

The most logical explanation of all I've heard, so far, is that the Star is dropping to one sleeper, dropping the diner, and will have the food costs divorced from the rail fare. However, I find it hard to believe that Amtrak will have just one train, in the entire network, where the sleeper fare does not include meals. That would become a branding nightmare. So I'm still puzzled as to what's going on. It could just be a test to see how the absence of sleepers on the Star affects bookings on the Meteor.

Phil


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## Ryan (Apr 6, 2015)

frankp01 said:


> I can only speak for *this* customer. While I don't hang out on foamer boards,


Yet here you are posting on one. Congrats, you're not the typical customer I'm talking about.


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## Anderson (Apr 6, 2015)

frankp01 said:


> > The majority of customers already booked don't hang out on foamer boards and have no clue anything may be amiss.
> 
> I can only speak for *this* customer. While I don't hang out on foamer boards, I do travel on Amtrak a fair amount. (I usually have about 14,000 guest reward points each year). I've learned that, whether it's a hotel booking or a rail fare, when booked ahead by a significant amount, it pays to monitor the room rate/rail fare, because it sometimes goes down. I got quite a refund last year when the room I'd booked on the Sunset Limited dropped by almost $400.
> 
> ...


I'm going to concur that, by definition, you're not average. The "average" customer doesn't spend what I believe on the basis of your stated AGR earnings would be $7000/yr on train travel. With that said, a large number of us are multiple standard deviations off of the "norm".

Realistically, though, even if this "sticks" for a bit there are two other trains likely to wind up in a somewhat similar position: 66/67, should it end up with a sleeper being added back; and the Pennsylvanian, if it gets the through cars. Ideally the Star would have its diner back (with meal costs included back again).


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## jis (Apr 6, 2015)

I tend to agree. If a new class of overnight trains with limited Sleeper service and some enhanced Cafe/ Lounge service (perhaps even provided using the Diner hard product) is going to be created then the prime candidates beyond the Star would be the Cardinal and of course 65/66/67 when it get its Sleeper. These need not be limited to a single Sleeper either.


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## chakk (Apr 7, 2015)

My mixed train about a decade ago was on the Rio Grande Scenic Railroad roundtrip between alamosa and antonito. The train provided connecting service to/from the Cumbres & Toltec steam train that runs between antonito and chama, new mexico. Our train had about six freight cars in front of a full-length dome and a single-level coach. Two dome attendants served snacks and beverages on the morning run to antonito. NO crew aboard the return trip -- we opened our own door and put down the step box at Alamosa, up hearing the engineer blow one short whistle after coming to a complete stop. That is the standard signal to indicate that the brakes are set. The engine crew worked sidings around Antonito with the freight cars while the steam train was out on the Chama run, and departed for Chama 15 minutes after the steam train returned to Antonito and the engine crew saw us board the coach. Too hot to ride inside the dome on the return run unfortunately.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2015)

chakk said:


> My mixed train about a decade ago was on the Rio Grande Scenic Railroad roundtrip between alamosa and antonito. The train provided connecting service to/from the Cumbres & Toltec steam train that runs between antonito and chama, new mexico. Our train had about six freight cars in front of a full-length dome and a single-level coach. Two dome attendants served snacks and beverages on the morning run to antonito. NO crew aboard the return trip -- we opened our own door and put down the step box at Alamosa, up hearing the engineer blow one short whistle after coming to a complete stop. That is the standard signal to indicate that the brakes are set. The engine crew worked sidings around Antonito with the freight cars while the steam train was out on the Chama run, and departed for Chama 15 minutes after the steam train returned to Antonito and the engine crew saw us board the coach. Too hot to ride inside the dome on the return run unfortunately.


Interesting information. Just curious. What does this have to do with whether Sleepers are sold out on the Silvers or not? Or even the usage of Diners or not n Amtrak overnight trains for that matter. Just a bit puzzled. Are you suggesting that Amtrak should operate such trains?


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 7, 2015)

I have mixed feelings about the prospect of no meal sleepers. On the one hand I could easily give up eating any more reheated frozen AmChow in exchange for a substantially lower fare. Most of the meals I previously selected have either been removed or modified in a manner which makes them even less appealing now. In addition most of my annoyances these days revolve around the routine barking, perpetual lethargy, and abrasive indifference of the dining car staff.

On the other hand most people on the forum seem to enjoy Amtrak dining so it would probably be a big loss for them. Scaling back dining options has also been a successful tactic for private railroads who wanted to scale back passenger operations of long distance services in the past. That is not something I desire to see. Not to mention that whatever discount is given is likely to be minimal and/or eroded over time until the cost for a no-meal sleeper is hardly any different from what we're paying for a sleeper with meals today.

Then there's the whole issue of redemption options. Although it's possible AGR might create a new lower redemption level for sleepers without meals it seems equally likely that redeeming for a sleeper without meals won't save you any points. Indeed the current redemption levels may end up having their meals removed with a new higher level bracket to add meals again. I'm also wondering if this development comes to pass will it end up changing any opinions about Boardman's tenure.


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## Pessimist (Apr 7, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> On the one hand I could easily give up eating any more reheated frozen AmChow in exchange for a substantially lower fare.





Devil's Advocate said:


> Although it's possible AGR might create a new lower redemption level for sleepers without meals it seems equally likely that redeeming for a sleeper without meals won't save you any points.


Being a card carrying pessimist, IMHO, sleepers w/o meals will not see any lowering of their fares, and equally, sleepers w/o meals will not see any lowering of AGR redemption points.

I base this on my feelings that part of the problem is that Amtrak isn't apportioning true meal costs against current sleeper fares. So, if meals are eliminated, there is no meal cost accounting (bookkeeping) line to subtract from sleeper fares (nor from sleeper redemption points). With nothing to subtract, there is no net change possible.

Yes, I do know that there is an actual cost of serving food in the diners to sleeper passengers, but their current meal cost accounting practice (or the lack thereof) is why the diners appear to be loosing money.


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## Big Iron (Apr 7, 2015)

chakk said:


> If Amtrak were to offer a mixed train with freight cars and a single coach, I'd make a special point to ride it. Last time I got to ride a mixed train was about 10 years ago between Alamosa and Antonito, Colorado,


Amtrak ran a mixed train, The Fast Mail.


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## CHamilton (Apr 8, 2015)

Changes Ahead for Amtrak's Silver Star?

You know the rumors are running wild when the blogs start quoting AU.


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## Anderson (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm beginning to see a bigger issue, in some respects, from the fact that Amtrak has blocked out the sleepers on the Star for over a week (I think we're closing in on two weeks) now. Regardless of what Amtrak intends to do here, they need to _do it_ and get off the pot over this one before they start losing business to the lack of listed sleeping car space on those trains. At a bare minimum, they need to "service alert" the space somehow so people at least know what's up (lest people start assuming the train has no sleeper).


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## Palmetto (Apr 8, 2015)

I agree with Anderson on this one. Nothing "official" by way of simple information leads to all sorts of erroneous speculation. Is there some military secret about all of this?


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## VentureForth (Apr 8, 2015)

The more upfront Amtrak is about this, and the quicker they resolve the issue, the less likely to lose market share to the Hound or airlines.


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## keelhauled (Apr 8, 2015)

Anyone looking to book a sleeper is not thinking about a bus. And compared to airlines there isn't any measurable market share to loose in the few thousand sleeper passengers, the vast majority of which can just as easily travel on the Meteor, which I expect is where they are in fact ending up.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 8, 2015)

I think Amtrak is still trying to decide. If they operate the Cafe car as a Diner Lite, they can still offer full service dining to sleeper passengers. If they drop all food service they must create an entire new "sleeper only" class. That's a pretty big decision to make...


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## Anderson (Apr 8, 2015)

There's no serious plan to ditch the cafe as well. Eliminating all food service would be so stunningly stupid as to defy words, but that also hasn't been considered. If nothing else, Amtrak could look at doing something like they do on the Cardinal.


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## jebr (Apr 8, 2015)

Yeah, coach is still available, so any business lost to bus companies would be so negligible as to not be worth measuring.

Airlines would be a real threat, especially if the Meteor schedule doesn't work for them or they aren't along the Meteor route. Amtrak needs to fix it for that purpose (and just to make sure that customers aren't left in the dark.)


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## TVRM610 (Apr 8, 2015)

Anderson said:


> There's no serious plan to ditch the cafe as well. Eliminating all food service would be so stunningly stupid as to defy words, but that also hasn't been considered. If nothing else, Amtrak could look at doing something like they do on the Cardinal.


Anderson... i should have worded that better, when I said "drop all food service" I meant drop all food service included in sleeper fares.


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## Anderson (Apr 8, 2015)

jebr said:


> Yeah, coach is still available, so any business lost to bus companies would be so negligible as to not be worth measuring.
> 
> Airlines would be a real threat, especially if the Meteor schedule doesn't work for them or they aren't along the Meteor route. Amtrak needs to fix it for that purpose (and just to make sure that customers aren't left in the dark.)


Well, and let's not forget that there are two reasonably major cities (Raleigh and Tampa) not directly served by the Meteor. Tampa-Miami and Raleigh-New York are both long enough (especially the latter) that you _will_ get sleeper passengers on both legs. I've run into Raleigh-bound sleeper passengers when traveling south from Richmond...from New York, the proposition of two included meals and the ability to lay down for a nap (NYP-RGH really _is _a long enough haul for folks to justify this...it's over 9:30 SB and 10:00 NB [the latter due to some padding, granted...]; MIA-TPA would be more of an "if the price is right" situation given the shorter distance, but that market is actually bigger on the Star than is NYP-RGH).


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## keelhauled (Apr 8, 2015)

I don't agree that losing sleeper service on the Star would be a significant detriment. And I have also seen no credible rumors (if such a thing exists) that the star will even be loosing sleeper service entirely; my understanding is that the diner is being removed and a single sleeper shifted to the Meteor.

If we look at the NARP fact sheet (http://www.narprail.org/uploads/3/0/4/0/30401991/trains.pdf), the Star essentially serves three major markets: Northeast-Florida, Northeast-NC/VA, and intra-Florida. And by ridership the top by far is intra-Florida.

The only pair which I would argue even needs a sleeper at all is Northeast-Tampa. Everything else to Florida can be served by the Meteor. Intra-Florida in no way requires sleeper service. And if people are even using the sleepers for that purpose than Amtrak in my opinion is hugely botching their pricing by allowing sleeper fares to drop low enough that people will take short haul trips within Florida, blocking off rooms for more lucrative passengers going further north. And the Palmetto and Carolinian have shown that sleepers are not required for successful mid distance day trips even further than Raleigh.


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## Anderson (Apr 8, 2015)

keelhauled said:


> I don't agree that losing sleeper service on the Star would be a significant detriment. And I have also seen no credible rumors (if such a thing exists) that the star will even be loosing sleeper service entirely; my understanding is that the diner is being removed and a single sleeper shifted to the Meteor.
> 
> If we look at the NARP fact sheet (http://www.narprail.org/uploads/3/0/4/0/30401991/trains.pdf), the Star essentially serves three major markets: Northeast-Florida, Northeast-NC/VA, and intra-Florida. And by ridership the top by far is intra-Florida.
> 
> The only pair which I would argue even needs a sleeper at all is Northeast-Tampa. Everything else to Florida can be served by the Meteor. Intra-Florida in no way requires sleeper service. And if people are even using the sleepers for that purpose than Amtrak in my opinion is hugely botching their pricing by allowing sleeper fares to drop low enough that people will take short haul trips within Florida, blocking off rooms for more lucrative passengers going further north. And the Palmetto and Carolinian have shown that sleepers are not required for successful mid distance day trips even further than Raleigh.


I disagree flatly with a lot of what you're saying. Northeast-Florida requires sleeper service, yes. However, most of your NEC-South Florida traffic winds up on the Meteor. If Amtrak can resell rooms on the Star between Orlando/Tampa and Miami then that is going to be an extra couple hundred bucks in revenue (the room charge for a roomette which I generally find is about $120 TPA-MIA, though I don't know whether that is high bucket or low). If Amtrak can sell two such spaces per train, net of meals that is probably about $200/train...or about $150k/yr in added revenue for a space that was being vacated. Likewise, if Jacksonville is a net-discharge station for the sleepers on the Silvers southbound and a net boarding station northbound (which I believe is the case) then Amtrak would do well to try and re-sell a few spaces south of there. The same thing applies north of Raleigh/Richmond: If a space is being vacated you want to sell it a second (or third) time.

"Needs a sleeper" is not the same as "a sleeper would be beneficial/net incremental for". True, you don't want to flood the sleeper with Tampa-Miami traffic and block out someone going Raleigh-Miami...but you also don't want to turn away an additional sale if doing so would improve your overall load factors and generate more revenue.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

I do agree with Anderson on this one.

Interestingly, from a revenue perspective it is probably best to be able to turn a room over a few times en route rather than carrying passengers end to end. Doing a discount sale on all the accommodation freed up southbound at Orlando may not be that bad a thing. Such space could be released late at lower rate after it is clear that not too many through passengers are being displaced. Or alternatively a quota system could be used like Indian Railways does quite effectively in such situations.


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## chakk (Apr 8, 2015)

jis said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> > My mixed train about a decade ago was on the Rio Grande Scenic Railroad roundtrip between alamosa and antonito. The train provided connecting service to/from the Cumbres & Toltec steam train that runs between antonito and chama, new mexico. Our train had about six freight cars in front of a full-length dome and a single-level coach. Two dome attendants served snacks and beverages on the morning run to antonito. NO crew aboard the return trip -- we opened our own door and put down the step box at Alamosa, up hearing the engineer blow one short whistle after coming to a complete stop. That is the standard signal to indicate that the brakes are set. The engine crew worked sidings around Antonito with the freight cars while the steam train was out on the Chama run, and departed for Chama 15 minutes after the steam train returned to Antonito and the engine crew saw us board the coach. Too hot to ride inside the dome on the return run unfortunately.
> ...


I was just responding to the comment about mixed trains on Amtrak, and how I would be willing to ride such a train to capture the "rare mileage" if one were offered. I seriously doubt that Amtrak will ever resort again to "mixed" trains -- I consider those years when some Amtrak trains carried many MHCs as "mixed" trains.


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## Hopeful rider (Apr 8, 2015)

There is considerable talk that the northbound Silver Star is losing its dining car after July 1. I hope that this is not true.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

I doubt that only the northbound would lose the Diner while the southbound does not. That would cause quite a collection of Diners at Hialeah while Sunnyside eventually runs out of them


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2015)

Hopeful rider said:


> There is considerable talk that the northbound Silver Star is losing its dining car after July 1. I hope that this is not true.


Silver Star. No more Viewliner sleepers.  No more heritage diners.  Not a very good outlook for a LD train. :angry2:

Is this permanent, or just until the Viewliner II sleepers and the Viewliner diners are available for revenue service, is the big question that needs to now be answered (hint, hint, Amtrak) ? :help:


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2015)

Who said anything about no more Viewliner Sleepers?


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## andersone (Apr 9, 2015)

Its amazing how timely accurate information eliminates rumors,,,

wait, we are discussing Amtrak


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## PaulM (Apr 9, 2015)

RyanS said:


> The majority of customers already booked don't hang out on foamer boards and have no clue that anything may be amiss.


It's a strange industry where the best customers can be ignored as weird, rather than a market segment to be catered to.


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2015)

That's an incredibly bizarre conclusion to draw from my comments.

You genuinely think that this crowd of AGR points using, loophole trip seeking folks are Amtrak's best customers?


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## DinerLite (Apr 9, 2015)

I can confirm the Silver Star will be going diner-less effective July 1 for a six month "trial". It was announced yesterday to OBS in Miami. Both sleepers are staying on the train. What I cannot speak to is what will happen to fares or meal service. All the lounges are equipped for "diner-lite" service, but I have no idea if that is the route they'll take.

As mentioned above, this is a six month trial (though I'm surprised they're trialing through two very busy holiday periods. Maybe that's part of the test.) If successful, the diner will presumably be gone forever and it could potentially extend to other eastern trains. If the trial does not succeed (read: revenue falls faster than costs and/or rider complaints soar), then the diner will return.


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## fulham (Apr 9, 2015)

Over on Trains Magazine's Passenger forum, there is a comment that the current Heritage diners are due for some work this year. Since the VII diners are (hopefully) around the corner, it does not make sense to spend money on maintenance for the Heritage diners given that they will be retired soon anyway. So it appears Amtrak is going take the diners off the Star to ensure that the LSL, Meteor and Crescent have enough serviceable diners. Once the VII's are delivered I would expect the Star will get its diner back.

Remember there are 25 VII diners on order. That more than covers the needs for the LSL, Meteor, Crescent, and the Silver Star. Unless there is a new eastern LD train in the works we don't know about, or if Amtrak is going to replace the Superliners on the CONO or the Capital, I am thinking the Silver Star will gets it diner back once the VII's are delivered.


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## AKA (Apr 9, 2015)

RyanS said:


> That's an incredibly bizarre conclusion to draw from my comments.You genuinely think that this crowd of AGR points using, loophole trip seeking folks are Amtrak's best customers?


. 
ouch


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## SarahZ (Apr 9, 2015)

AKA said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > That's an incredibly bizarre conclusion to draw from my comments.You genuinely think that this crowd of AGR points using, loophole trip seeking folks are Amtrak's best customers?
> ...


He's not wrong. The active members of this forum are a fraction of a percentage of Amtrak riders. We are not the majority. Not by far.


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2015)

Nor are we anywhere near the biggest contributors in revenue.


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## Anderson (Apr 9, 2015)

So, can someone help me draw up a "form letter" complaint to Amtrak? I'm on this train so much (no, really...the Meteor's times NB are awful in RVR if you're getting off the train) that I'm going to make it a point to file a complaint _every_ time I'm stuck with this. Which is going to be quite a bit.


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## NE933 (Apr 9, 2015)

RyanS said:


> Nor are we anywhere near the biggest contributors in revenue.


So let's do something to contribute to revenue: both Amtrak's and to our own peace of mind. Can I propose a few more gatherings around the country so for those of us who don't have time for more than one vacation from work, can attend? The National Train Day in Philly and Washington, DC of a few years ago come to mind.

Another idea I have is to pool the energy and content of this forum and have several dependable, even minded representatives of AU ask to meet with the man himself at 60 Massachusetts Ave. It's a long shot, but where else can Amtrak get free feedback, i.e., don't spend a dime on questionaires and consultants to interpret them?


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## pennyk (Apr 9, 2015)

I am on the Silver Meteor right now and asked my attendant if he heard the rumor about no dining car on the Star starting in July. He confirmed everything that the guest posted above. However, in my opinion, it is still a rumor until officially announced by Amtrak.


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## jis (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok I have just got some more popcorn. Now to sit back and watch


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## SarahZ (Apr 9, 2015)

pennyk said:


> I am on the Silver Meteor right now and asked my attendant if he heard the rumor about no dining car on the Star starting in July. He confirmed everything that the guest posted above. However, in my opinion, *it is still a rumor until officially announced by Amtrak.*


Ditto.


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## Anderson (Apr 9, 2015)

pennyk said:


> I am on the Silver Meteor right now and asked my attendant if he heard the rumor about no dining car on the Star starting in July. He confirmed everything that the guest posted above. However, in my opinion, it is still a rumor until officially announced by Amtrak.


I have some further information, but in the long tradition of these parlor games I can't say anything much until Monday. Apparently Amtrak is set to make an official announcement then, but enough of what I have is from channels that I can't disclose it publicly.


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > I am on the Silver Meteor right now and asked my attendant if he heard the rumor about no dining car on the Star starting in July. He confirmed everything that the guest posted above. However, in my opinion, *it is still a rumor until officially announced by Amtrak.*
> ...


Precisely.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 9, 2015)

Well, maybe they'll move the Star Diner to the Card since they'll be running a second sleeper this summer, no wait, the inside info is that the Star will have two sleepers also for the Diner Lite so who really knows, we'll find out soon!

I'd ride the Star to Florida IF the Roomette Prices are cut to Slumber Coach type fares but otherwise it would be the Meteor! But not Northbound due to the bad calling times as Cliff said!


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## MrFSS (Apr 9, 2015)

So - lets wait for the announcement Monday and then posting will resume.


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