# Stolen and crashed Horizon airliner



## railiner (Aug 11, 2018)

Everyone seen this story? Incredible how he managed to pull the chocks, start it up, taxi and take off...

Suppose he learned a few things on his job, and the rest on internet flight simulators...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/stolen-plane-crashes-unauthorized-takeoff-seattle-airport-source/story?id=57141064


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## cpotisch (Aug 11, 2018)

Well that's the kind of thing you don't hear about every day.


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## JayPea (Aug 11, 2018)

railiner said:


> Everyone seen this story? Incredible how he managed to pull the chocks, start it up, taxi and take off...
> 
> Suppose he learned a few things on his job, and the rest on internet flight simulators...
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/stolen-plane-crashes-unauthorized-takeoff-seattle-airport-source/story?id=57141064


Unfortunately for him he didn't learn how to land.


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## cpotisch (Aug 11, 2018)

> Airline officials said they are not sure how the ground services worker learned to operate a plane, much less perform flying stunts.


Taking off and doing barrel rolls is pretty basic. If you have a consumer grade flight sim or even watch some basic flight tutorial videos, it won't take long before you can pull that stuff off. My point is, it's much more impressive and surprising that he was able to get into the plane and get it rolling than the fact that he was able to do some basic flying.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 11, 2018)

JayPea said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone seen this story? Incredible how he managed to pull the chocks, start it up, taxi and take off...
> ...


I think I heard speculation on the news this morning that he was planning his suicide and this was how he wanted his life to end.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2018)

It's gone viral Worldwide!

I'm never flown a Jet, but that looks like some fancy flying to me!

Just like the 911 Maniac Pilots,Landing wasn't part of the plan!


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## cpotisch (Aug 11, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> It's gone viral Worldwide!
> 
> I'm never flown a Jet, but that looks like some fancy flying to me!
> 
> Just like the 911 Maniac Pilots,Landing wasn't part of the plan!


That's not a jet. The Q400 is a turboprop. Fortunately it doesn't sound like this guy was trying to hurt or kill anyone like most other hijackers. Obviously it was a terrible idea and the guy died and destroyed a plane, but at least no one else got hurt and no other property was destroyed.


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## PVD (Aug 11, 2018)

Not to get nitpicky, but a turboprop is a jet. It just happens to use the jet engines to turn the props, as opposed to a piston engine. Q-400 is a pretty decent size plane, Only ones I've seen around here are Porter Airlines Newark to Toronto/Bishop, but its predecessor Dash - 8 is not uncommon at all.


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## XHRTSP (Aug 11, 2018)

We in the industry would refer to the Q400 as a turbine, not as a jet.


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## PVD (Aug 11, 2018)

That's reasonable, the airflow isn't providing the propulsion directly. Years ago, the term prop-jet was very common, not so much today.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2018)

Sorry bout that, the resolution on the video wasn't good on my phone and I thought he was in a Jet!( not familiar with the type)

Still some fancy flying for a novice!


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 12, 2018)

XHRTSP said:


> We in the industry would refer to the Q400 as a turbine, not as a jet.


I've never heard anyone outside the industry refer to turboprops as jets either. Well until now anyway. That being said I have heard hundreds of laypeople refer to turbofans as jets. I don't know if that's considered accurate or not but everyone seems to be on the same page about it so maybe it doesn't matter.


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## railiner (Aug 12, 2018)

So now, this will create a whole new can of worms for aircraft operating area security procedures, in an effort to prevent any recurrence's. They require a lengthy background check for all ground worker's to access the area, but perhaps they will add psyche evaluation's as well...

Not sure if this guy would have been detected that way or not, as he sounded depressed, but otherwise sane. Perhaps some system of tighter aircraft security, with no access by less than two people at a time, or something like that...


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## cpotisch (Aug 12, 2018)

PVD said:


> Not to get nitpicky, but a turboprop is a jet. It just happens to use the jet engines to turn the props, as opposed to a piston engine. Q-400 is a pretty decent size plane, Only ones I've seen around here are Porter Airlines Newark to Toronto/Bishop, but its predecessor Dash - 8 is not uncommon at all.


Firstly, American Eagle (Piedmont Airlines) and United Express (CommutAir) recently lost all their Dash 8s, which is a real shame, since I loved riding in the nine row, 37 seat Q200 a couple years ago. Now Porter is the last operator in the country, and Air Canada Jazz is the only other operator on the continent running them.

Secondly, while turboprops and jets are the same under the hood, with a jet, almost all of the thrust is from the exhaust. The fan just brings the air in to "be exploded". With a turboprop (and of course with regular piston props), the thrust comes from the propeller. This is why all prop engines are measured in horsepower and all jets are measured in pounds of thrust.


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## PVD (Aug 12, 2018)

Even the 50 seat RJs seem to be fading fading pretty fast.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 12, 2018)

railiner said:


> So now, this will create a whole new can of worms for aircraft operating area security procedures, in an effort to prevent any recurrence's. They require a lengthy background check for all ground worker's to access the area, but perhaps they will add psyche evaluation's as well...
> 
> Not sure if this guy would have been detected that way or not, as he sounded depressed, but otherwise sane. Perhaps some system of tighter aircraft security, with no access by less than two people at a time, or something like that...


Redacted! Guilty to being a Troll here!


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## cpotisch (Aug 12, 2018)

PVD said:


> Even the 50 seat RJs seem to be fading fading pretty fast.


You talking about the CRJ? Because I would disagree. I see the -100s and -200s all over the place. They seem to be just as common as they've always been.


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## railiner (Aug 12, 2018)

I believe AA is pretty well getting rid of all its smaller, 37 and 44 seat ERJ's...


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## PVD (Aug 12, 2018)

You still see them all over the place because there were so many. AA went from over 200 ERJ 145 to around 80 last year Now 80 is not a small number, but they got rid of loads. Delta also. They are adding more larger RJs (E-170/175) and CRJ-700 and 900 wherever possible as contracts expire or at wholly owned subsidiaries.United a little slower, but catching up. Also, airlines may fly planes on certain routes where they make sense but eliminate them in lots of other places. I have seen plenty at both JFK and LGA, but not as many as a few years ago.


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## PVD (Aug 12, 2018)

With traffic picking up, airlines upsize their RJ fleets as their "scope clauses" permit. It's simple economics.


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## cpotisch (Aug 12, 2018)

Oh, well ERJs are a whole other story. Smaller CRJs are still pretty common,


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## PVD (Aug 12, 2018)

They are very common,but in greatly reduced numbers.


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## saxman (Aug 12, 2018)

The 50 seaters are indeed greatly reduced. They are still going to small cities though. Some regionals still operate as many as they can staff because they are really cheap now. Delta has relegated them to mainly operate in the middle of the country now. You know, can't put those coastal elites on those small torture tubes.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 13, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > So now, this will create a whole new can of worms for aircraft operating area security procedures, in an effort to prevent any recurrence's. They require a lengthy background check for all ground worker's to access the area, but perhaps they will add psyche evaluation's as well...
> ...


 I am a gun enthusiast and this is a false accusation and grave misrepresentation. Even if everyone had guns, this guy could have stolen the plane anyway since he did it covertly. If he hadn't done it covertly, he wouldn't have been able to steal it anyway. No one in the gun community is advocating for "everyone working around Airports" to be armed.



PVD said:


> You still see them all over the place because there were so many. AA went from over 200 ERJ 145 to around 80 last year Now 80 is not a small number, but they got rid of loads. Delta also. They are adding more larger RJs (E-170/175) and CRJ-700 and 900 wherever possible as contracts expire or at wholly owned subsidiaries.United a little slower, but catching up. Also, airlines may fly planes on certain routes where they make sense but eliminate them in lots of other places. I have seen plenty at both JFK and LGA, but not as many as a few years ago.


They brought back most of them into service. Now AA has 40 E140 and 121 E145 in service, but the CR2 is getting gutted. Perhaps a totally different situation at DL or UA, but the E-Jets are generally pretty nice rides. The Skywest CR7 is terrible in comparison.


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2018)

Well at least AA's smallest E135 37 seater's are long gone...

Riding those were as close to a 'corporate jet' as I ever got...


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 13, 2018)

railiner said:


> Well at least AA's smallest E135 37 seater's are long gone...
> 
> Riding those were as close to a 'corporate jet' as I ever got...


Ditto!


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2018)

Just what I was afraid of...another stolen airplane and crash....

https://abcnews.go.com/US/pilot-dies-plane-crashes-utah-home-couple-inside/story?id=57152375

While the circumstances were much different in the latter case, a licensed pilot this time, and a business aircraft, I still have to wonder what the possibility was of the news of the first event, inspiring this one....

And I certainly hope there are not any more....


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## cpotisch (Aug 13, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Well at least AA's smallest E135 37 seater's are long gone...
> ...


Amen!


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## trainman74 (Aug 14, 2018)

railiner said:


> Just what I was afraid of...another stolen airplane and crash....
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/pilot-dies-plane-crashes-utah-home-couple-inside/story?id=57152375
> 
> ...


This actually reminds me of this January 2002 incident, which was apparently directly inspired by the 9/11 attacks.

(Something the Wikipedia article doesn't specifically call out is that January 5, 2002, was a Saturday, and particularly in the evening hours, the building was all but deserted.)


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## XHRTSP (Aug 14, 2018)

There was another incident a few years later where a man flew his airplane into the IRS building in downtown Austin.


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## railiner (Aug 15, 2018)

In my eye's, the most heinous of all was this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

While it wasn't as bad as the 9-11 disaster, it was not "for a cause", but rather just a suicide....

People wanting to end their lives should simply swallow a bottle of sleeping pills, and not put their misery on innocent other's....


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## cpotisch (Aug 15, 2018)

railiner said:


> In my eye's, the most heinous of all was this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
> 
> While it wasn't as bad as the 9-11 disaster, it was not "for a cause", but rather just a suicide....
> 
> People wanting to end their lives should simply swallow a bottle of sleeping pills, and not put their misery on innocent other's....


For me, this is the most disturbing one. For weeks, I couldn't stop thinking about it.


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > In my eye's, the most heinous of all was this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
> ...


Maybe that was the one I was thinking about...mixed them up....


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## JRR (Aug 16, 2018)

Some years ago, a teenager student pilot crashed his plane into an office building in Tampa. By chance he hit the office of an attorney friend of mine who happened not to be working that Saturday.

No one was hurt other than the pilot who was killed.


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## cpotisch (Aug 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


You almost certainly were. That EgyptAir flight was not a suicide. Also, since you said that someone wanting to end their life should "simply swallow a bottle of sleeping pills", wouldn't it be a bit better for them to seek help and not kill themselves, or anyone else? Just a thought.


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## PVD (Aug 16, 2018)

The NTSB ruled that the probable cause of the Eygpt Air crash was most likely the deliberate action of the reserve first officer. That would be suicide. That finding was unacceptable to Egyptian Authorities who reached a different set of conclusions..


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


Yes, they should definitely seek out help by at least calling the national suicide prevention hotline. I am just saying that if they still are determined to go though with it, they should not take innocent victims with them...


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## snvboy (Aug 18, 2018)

I am surprised that nobody - and I haven't seen it in the media either - have made reference to the 1999 Air Botswana crash, that is eerily similar to the current Horizon one. A disaffected employee, in this case a pilot who had lost his certification multiple times, stole an airplane (the same class as plane as in Horizon Q400, an ATR-42), flew around the airport for a few hours, then crashed it. In the case of Air Botswana, the pilot crashed into the other two ATR-42 on the ground, which made up the remainder of the airworthy Air Botswana fleet. This caused the already struggling airline to lease more planes, putting it even deeper into a financial hole.


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

snvboy said:


> I am surprised that nobody - and I haven't seen it in the media either - have made reference to the 1999 Air Botswana crash, that is eerily similar to the current Horizon one. A disaffected employee, in this case a pilot who had lost his certification multiple times, stole an airplane (the same class as plane as in Horizon Q400, an ATR-42), flew around the airport for a few hours, then crashed it. In the case of Air Botswana, the pilot crashed into the other two ATR-42 on the ground, which made up the remainder of the airworthy Air Botswana fleet. This caused the already struggling airline to lease more planes, putting it even deeper into a financial hole.


But in that case, the guy *crashed into the airport* and destroyed two other planes. With this Horizon incident he took it on a "joyride" and crashed into an uninhabited island. He destroyed the plane and himself, but that's it. Also, the ATR-42 isn't really the same class as a Q400. It holds about half as many passengers as the latter.


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 18, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> > I am surprised that nobody - and I haven't seen it in the media either - have made reference to the 1999 Air Botswana crash, that is eerily similar to the current Horizon one. A disaffected employee, in this case a pilot who had lost his certification multiple times, stole an airplane (the same class as plane as in Horizon Q400, an ATR-42), flew around the airport for a few hours, then crashed it. In the case of Air Botswana, the pilot crashed into the other two ATR-42 on the ground, which made up the remainder of the airworthy Air Botswana fleet. This caused the already struggling airline to lease more planes, putting it even deeper into a financial hole.
> ...


Just as a minor clarification, there are people living on Ketron Island but no one was injured on the ground.


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## PVD (Aug 18, 2018)

Modern high wing turboprop with a PW engine. The ATR-72 would be closer in size to a Q-400, but a 42 would not be unlike an earlier Dash-8


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