# VIA Announces Service Changes



## PRR 60

From the VIA Press Release, June 27, 2012:



> *NEW SCHEDULES*
> *Transcontinental Trains*
> 
> The Canadian: The Canadian currently provides three round trips per week, year round, between Toronto and Vancouver. Demand for this service is strong and growing during the summer months; VIA has invested more than $55 million to improve service along this route, and is upgrading equipment to meet customer needs.
> 
> Demand for this service during the off-peak season, however, is much lower, and has fallen steadily for the past 15 years. Three round trips per week during the off-peak season are no longer needed to meet demand. Beginning this November, The Canadian will offer two round trips per week during the off peak season.
> 
> The Ocean : The Ocean currently provides six round trips per week between Montréal and Halifax. VIA has invested more than $25 million to improve this service, and will continue to improve the value of this service to customers.
> 
> However, the current schedule, which has been essentially unchanged since 1990, no longer reflects current ridership or foreseeable market demand – ridership has dropped consistently for 15 years as other travel options (highways, air and bus services) have improved. Beginning this November, The Ocean will operate three round trips per week year round.
> 
> *Quebec – Windsor Intercity Trains*
> 
> The Montréal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle, where the demand for efficient intercity transportation is high and growing, is VIA's busiest market. In January 2012 VIA added new frequencies, including express services, between Montréal, Ottawa and Toronto. More frequencies will be added this year, and faster trains will reduce overall trip times.
> 
> The Southwestern Ontario market includes some of VIA's poorest-performing train services, where customer demand is very low. At the same time, new air services, and expanding commuter rail services in the Greater Toronto area, are further reducing the need for some weekday and weekend VIA services. Accordingly, VIA is reducing frequencies on some routes in Southwestern Ontario and will provide better integration with other public transportation services.
> 
> Montréal-Quebec City is a high demand market, and VIA hopes to add an additional frequency on this route later this year to meet the needs of customers.


VIA Press Release


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## Devil's Advocate

30% cut to non-peak services of _The Canadian_.

50% cut to the _The Ocean_ year-round.

Sounds like a perfectly healthy operation.

Nope, nothing to worry about there.


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## jis

I hope this is not indicative of what might happen in the US next


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## Ryan

Given that ridership isn't dropping (really, 15 consecutive years!) like it is up there, I'm hopeful you're right.


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## Devil's Advocate

Maybe VIA wouldn't be as starved for funds if they hadn't pissed away millions on renovations geared toward turning their premier train into a conventional hotel room?


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## NS VIA Fan

Sorry to see the Ocean cut to 3/week but ridership is down considerably from just as few years ago. Airline competition is strong on the route especially out of Halifax...2 hrs to Toronto vs. 24 on the train and flying can be a lot cheaper too.

The Canadian has survived on a triweekly schedule for 22 years (though it’s now being cut to 2/week in the winter) and the Chaleur also survives the cuts on its tri-weekly schedule. It will be interesting to see what the new schedules will be........will the Chaleur run on alternative dates to the Ocean? This would maintain 6/week service along the portion of the route that sees the heaviest ridership. 

And I don’t imagine amenities will be cut....... you might have to adjust your schedule but you’ll probably be able to enjoy a trip on the Ocean for a few years yet on a Park Car and sleepers.


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## yarrow

i would guess there will be a lot less express deals on the canadian during the off season. i wonder what months "winter" includes?


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## NS VIA Fan

Texas Sunset said:


> Maybe VIA wouldn't be as starved for funds if they hadn't pissed away millions on renovations geared toward turning their premier train into a conventional hotel room?


Maybe thats why the Canadian isn't being cut to twice weekly year 'round.........they are providing a service the traveller wants and is willing to pay for!


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## Devil's Advocate

NS VIA Fan said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe VIA wouldn't be as starved for funds if they hadn't pissed away millions on renovations geared toward turning their premier train into a conventional hotel room?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe thats why the Canadian isn't being cut to twice weekly year 'round.........they are providing a service the traveller wants and is willing to pay for!
Click to expand...

Maybe it just needs more cowbell?







BTW, Dave said he's not riding _The Canadian_ until VIA starts accepting AGR points for private varnish pulling fees.


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## The Davy Crockett

Ridership is down on the Ocean, but does anybody have an idea of how much fares have increased since 1990? I ask, because I looked into taking it three years back - it was for a sleeper in July, but I was looking in March or April. but it was :wacko: *CRAZY* :wacko: expensive.

I just :wub: *LOVE* :wub: this line:



> ridership has dropped consistently for 15 years as other travel options (highways, air and bus services) have improved.


:unsure: Yeah, at the prices VIA charges...


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## johnny.menhennet

Well if this is true, then I guess I have to support this if it means more efficiency and the lesser losses can be used to support demand where it is really needed. Straight from the Trains Magazine News Wire

"Frailey said ridership on the Canadian in 2011’s third quarter was triple that in the first quarter, and revenue jumped 424 percent but costs only 28 percent, and the subsidy required fell by almost 90 percent."

Straight from the Trains Magazine News Wire.


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## CHamilton

Transport Action BC calls VIA Rail Canada cuts ‘inexplicable’ and ‘wrong to the core’

Via All Aboard Washington



> KAMLOOPS, JUNE 27, 2012 – Matthew Buchanan, president of the public transportation users and advocacy group, Transport Action BC, said that today’s announcement of yet more cuts to Canada’s nationwide rail passenger service is wrong and inexplicable given this federal government’s recent investment of $923 million in a renewal of VIA Rail Canada’s trains, stations and other assets.
> 
> “While the rest of the G20 nations invest heavily and wisely in expanding their rail passenger services, Canada’s longstanding policy of cutting VIA continues,” said Buchanan.
> 
> “These cuts are wrong to the core and the destructiveness of this latest round will soon become apparent, much to the detriment of the more than four million passengers who use VIA annually.”


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## yarrow

i know less than nothing of the canadian budget process and the needs of canada. i do recall however that the harper government is investing heavily in fancy fighter jets while cutting rail service.


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## Bob Dylan

yarrow said:


> i would guess there will be a lot less express deals on the canadian during the off season. i wonder what months "winter" includes?


In Canada Winter is after Labor Day till June!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Sounds like the Right Wingers in the Great White North are using our Anti-Rail Naysayers Playbook!!!


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## PRR 60

yarrow said:


> i would guess there will be a lot less express deals on the canadian during the off season. i wonder what months "winter" includes?


Those Express Deals and the frequent 50% off sales were probably indicators of ridership issues with the VIA long distance services. Regular fares had become kind of meaningless.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha

I don't think VIA rail has ever expanded service, looking back at the 1988 timetable I have and the one today I don't see a single expansion in service anywhere just numerous cuts such as all service minus the Chalaur and Ocean in the maritimes, the Super Continental, some service in Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec. Looking back on the 1988 Amtrak timetable and the one today, the story is a bit happier. Yeah we lost a few trains in the since then (The Pioneer, Desert Wind and Three Rivers being the major ones) but we've gained quite a bit too. The Heartland Flyer, The Downeaster, expanded Cascades service including the restoration of Seattle to Vancouver BC, more Hiawatha frequencies, expanded service in California....well improved corridor service nations wide. In a country that is supposedly anti-rail Amtrak has done quite, while VIA Rail has done poorly in a country where you would think trains would get more support. Although Ill admit my knowledge of Canadian politics is somewhat limited.


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## Devil's Advocate

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I don't think VIA rail has ever expanded service, looking back at the 1988 timetable I have and the one today I don't see a single expansion in service anywhere just numerous cuts such as all service minus the Chalaur and Ocean in the maritimes, the Super Continental, some service in Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec. Looking back on the 1988 Amtrak timetable and the one today, the story is a bit happier. Yeah we lost a few trains in the since then (The Pioneer, Desert Wind and Three Rivers being the major ones) but we've gained quite a bit too. The Heartland Flyer, The Downeaster, expanded Cascades service including the restoration of Seattle to Vancouver BC, more Hiawatha frequencies, expanded service in California....well improved corridor service nations wide. In a country that is supposedly anti-rail Amtrak has done quite, while VIA Rail has done poorly in a country where you would think trains would get more support. Although Ill admit my knowledge of Canadian politics is somewhat limited.


Why are you starting with 1988? Isn't that arbitrarily ignoring nearly half of Amtrak's entire existence? It starts to seem like you're simply walking the data backward from your conclusion at that point. Even in this excessively limited example you're still much closer to describing a wash than a healthy and growing passenger rail network. Not to mention that some of those improved regional services are in the process of forever losing their federal funding. I can understand the desire to cast Amtrak's future in a positive light, but if America were a truly pro-rail country then why are our passenger rail services still stick with speeds, comforts, and technology from four decades ago?


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## NorthCoastHiawatha

I started in 1988 because I don't have and can't find any VIA timetables from before then. So suffice to say in the past 20 odd years Amtrak has done better than VIA in many respects.


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## NS VIA Fan

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I don't think VIA rail has ever expanded service, looking back at the 1988 timetable I have and the one today I don't see a single expansion in service anywhere just numerous cuts........................... Looking back on the 1988 Amtrak timetable and the one today, the story is a bit happier. Yeah we lost a few trains in the since then (The Pioneer, Desert Wind and Three Rivers being the major ones) but we've gained quite a bit too..


When VIA was formed it inherited the entire existing passenger systems of both CN & CP complete and has been trimming the route structure ever since. 

Unlike Amtrak........ where overnight on April 30/May 1, 1971 the existing US passenger system was slashed to a bare bone structure which Amtrak was to begin with.


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## johnny.menhennet

NS VIA Fan said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think VIA rail has ever expanded service, looking back at the 1988 timetable I have and the one today I don't see a single expansion in service anywhere just numerous cuts........................... Looking back on the 1988 Amtrak timetable and the one today, the story is a bit happier. Yeah we lost a few trains in the since then (The Pioneer, Desert Wind and Three Rivers being the major ones) but we've gained quite a bit too..
> 
> 
> 
> When VIA was formed it inherited the entire existing passenger systems of both CN & CP complete and has been trimming the route structure ever since.
> 
> Unlike Amtrak........ where overnight on April 30/May 1, 1971 the existing US passenger system was slashed to a bare bone structure which Amtrak was to begin with.
Click to expand...

But it was predominantly CN trains on CN trackage, correct? I know that CP was in there a little bit, but it was kinda CN's thing, right?


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## Eric S

What do you mean by "expanded service?" Route mileage that did not exist in 1988 (or 1977, VIA's start) but does exist in 2012? Or additional frequencies, over what existed in 1988 (or 1977)? Or both?

Since 1977, the _Atlantic_ has gone away, come back, gone away again. Same thing, I believe, with the _Canadian_ (treating the current _Canadian_ as the _Super Continental_).

I would have to review some VIA Rail timetables from the 1970s and 1980s to confirm, but I know frequencies on the corridor services in Ontario and Quebec have changed over the years, and recently been increased in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridors.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha

I was trying to say it seems Amtrak has weathered its cuts better than VIA has.


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## Anderson

From what I recall, the only major "expansion" of VIA service was when Mulroney forced the Super-Continental (I think) back into service following Trudeau's cuts.

There are two addendums to this:

1) To some extent, the problem is that transportation is largely a provincial bailwick, and I do not believe that any of the provinces have ever made a major investment in intercity rail (whereas in the US, let me rattle off all of the states that have come up with cash for services at various times: ME, VT, MA, CT, NY, NJ, PA, VA, NC, FL, IL, MI, MO, WA, OR, CA, OK, and AK have all funded major services while we came close to adding OH, IA and WI to the list recently...and might get there yet with IA). By comparison, Ontario Northland notwithstanding, I don't think that Ontario has seriously thrown in for longer-distance services (though I think the Toronto commuter network has been creeping in that direction). Most of the other services out there are more in the vein of Metra or Metro-North than anything, from what I can tell.

2) In keeping with #1, there's not much of a network to be had. Part of the problem is that the Prairie cities are probably too far apart to run anything but super-fast trains at a speed that would attract ridership at the present time, and Edmonton-Calgary aside (where, incidentally, I've heard hearsay of a train proposal being mooted), the cities off the network in Ontatio and Quebec just aren't that big. For example, the only theoretically viable links from Winnpipeg would be Regina (roughly 350 miles) or Saksatoon (close to 500 miles), both of which are probably too far away for a corridor to work (and neither route has any intermediate markets of note).

-Extending a bit further, Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton or Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary are both over 800 miles. Not bad for a /really/ long day train or an overnighter...but those are pretty hard sells, transportation-wise, at the moment. Winnipeg-Toronto is just under 1000 miles...and only has Sudbury and Thunder Bay along the line.

-Elsewhere, everything in BC more or less piles onto Vancouver except Victoria (where the strait makes a hash of any connection), there's nothing else on the plains. All of your other cities either have populations that aren't terribly large or that are separated by distance/track issues.

Basically, outside the corridor itself, I'm hard-pressed to see how you make a train system work in the way that Amtrak does unless you ramp up the speeds and run nonstop expresses at 90 MPH most of the way...and even then, the picture really isn't that clear. The cities just aren't large enough to provide the necessary ridership you'd need to support the investment required for an HSR system of any sort.

In short, Canada really sucks for passenger rail at the moment. I can see something eventually coming together in Alberta with the right government, and I could possibly see some expansions in Ontario and Quebec, but nothing else seems to work.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This is not good at all. I really liked VIA for it's classic equipment, but now I fear that they will soon end up like Mexico, with no passenger trains whatsoever. I hope this will not happen to Amtrak, because riership has been growing for years. Amtrak is finally overcoming the poor reputation and severe competetition. I'm not saying that Amtrak must kill all the domestic flights and interstate, I just want them, and VIA, to survive.


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## Hotblack Desiato

Canada will not end up "like Mexico, with no passenger trains whatsoever." The Windsor-Toronto-(Ottawa)-Montreal-Quebec corridor will survive, as will the various commuter lines that exist.


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## Guest

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Canada will not end up "like Mexico, with no passenger trains whatsoever." The Windsor-Toronto-(Ottawa)-Montreal-Quebec corridor will survive, as will the various commuter lines that exist.


Predicting that only the corridor services will survive is too pessimistic. Significantly no remote services were cut, a point that was made in the media release. Via also stated that the Canadian's traffic is growing during the peak season, but falling during the off season. Highly seasonal traffic patterns are nothing new on Canadian transcontinental trains; that was the case 50 years ago when I started riding. The difference is that then the trains were the mode of choice for a majority of travellers. Today with hourly flights from Toronto to Vancovuer that is no longer the case, hence the tour train personna. Still the Canadian fulfills a remote service mandate in Northern Ontario, even though it is not classified as such by Via.

The cutback to the Ocean is more worrisome, but the declining traffic pattern is clear, the result of improved road and air services in what a low population, economically challenged region.

As far as trimming the corridor services are concrned, the cuts will be to low usage evening or weekend services, or to trains which duplicate commuter services available on Go Transit. Some connections will be lost, but in the overall scheme of things the reductions were quite minor, notwithstanding what the railfan community has been saying.

Via says that it wishes to redeploy assets and is promising new services in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle once the track improvments are finished later this year. Canadian railfans are noting, correctly, that the prospect of additional frequences has been more talk than action so far. In the end getting additional trains will depend on the economy, as Via will be held to its budget, and it faces intense competition in the eastern triangle with the entry of regional carrier Porter Airlines.


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## jis

I think the Quebec City - Montreal - Ottawa - Toronto Corridor will do much better with more evenly distributed regular service than the episodic service that it has right now.


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## Devil's Advocate

Looking over VIA's history, it's hard not to see numerous similarities with Amtrak.

Is there any national passenger railway in the Americas that is NOT struggling just to remain politically and financially viable over the long term?


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## Gratt

I would be more optimistic about these cuts if VIA was planning on using the excess equipment to run new trains. Bringing back The Atlantic on a three day a week schedule would be a good example.

At the rate things are going I predict the Canadian will be cut west of Winnipeg in the next 10 years. Service though the Rockies will be contracted to a private company which will default on the line several years latter.

I guess it is time to really start planning a trip on the Canadian.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Davy Crockett said:


> :unsure: Yeah, at the prices VIA charges...


Quite a bit more expensive than Amtrak, much too epxensive for the average person, much too expensive for me!



NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I was trying to say it seems Amtrak has weathered its cuts better than VIA has.


I agree with you. VIA has cut a lot of routes and probably struggle (a lot) more than Amtrak.



Anderson said:


> Basically, outside the corridor itself, I'm hard-pressed to see how you make a train system work in the way that Amtrak does unless you ramp up the speeds and run nonstop expresses at 90 MPH most of the way...and even then, the picture really isn't that clear. The cities just aren't large enough to provide the necessary ridership you'd need to support the


I heard than VIA trains usually run at 70 mph, which is even slower than Amtrak!



Texas Sunset said:


> Is there any national passenger railway in the Americas that is NOT struggling just to remain politically and financially viable over the long term?


Not that I can think of. Panama might be doing all right, but the ones in S.A. are not doing too well except maybe PeruRail. I don't know much about Cuba but I don't think it's part of the Americas. It looks like Amtrak may actually be the best in both continents for passenger trains! :blink:


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## Anderson

Swadian,

I know that VIA may well run slower; I was strictly observing what would be needed for such a service to likely "sell" to a lot of folks and take enough of the regional travel market to get the trains reasonably full.


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## johnny.menhennet

Cuba is indeed part of the Americas, but I am not sure of the status of their passenger network at all.


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## Anderson

johnny.menhennet said:


> Cuba is indeed part of the Americas, but I am not sure of the status of their passenger network at all.


My understanding is that it is decent, and reasonably well-used. However, it is also quite "well worn" and most of the equipment is older, and OTP isn't always so hot.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard than VIA trains usually run at 70 mph, which is even slower than Amtrak!


 

Don't know where you heard that but there's lots of track in the corridor in the 95 > 100mph range and outside of the corridor……..many areas where speeds are in excess of 70mph:

Long stretches across the prairies where it's quite a sight to see a 25 car stainless steel Canadian rolling along in the 85mph range. 

And on the Ocean/Chaleur route……in the Maritimes in CTC territory it will be in the 80 plus range and there's lots of high speed running west of Rivier-du-Loup.

Here's a high speed combined Ocean/Chaleur at Saint-Basile-le-Grand, Quebec.


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## rrdude

Texas Sunset said:


> Looking over VIA's history, it's hard not to see numerous similarities with Amtrak.
> 
> Is there any national passenger railway in the Americas that is NOT struggling just to remain politically and financially viable over the long term?


Well, Mexico's national passenger rail system hasn't seen any cutback in YEARS, it has stayed status-quo for some time. That's good, right? Wait. OMG. Who killed Mexico's passenger trains? (It is a good read btw)

But truly, there haven't been any _cutbacks_ lately!


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## johnny.menhennet

NS VIA FAN, that is a really good video. That train was ABSOLUTELY over 70, probably closer to 90 IYAM. Thanks for posting.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard than VIA trains usually run at 70 mph, which is even slower than Amtrak!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know where you heard that but there's lots of track in the corridor in the 95 > 100mph range and outside of the corridor……..many areas where speeds are in excess of 70mph:
Click to expand...

I heard the 70 mph limit on a Trainweb trip report. He said that crewmembers told him the Canadian runs at 70 mph max..


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## bretton88

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard than VIA trains usually run at 70 mph, which is even slower than Amtrak!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know where you heard that but there's lots of track in the corridor in the 95 > 100mph range and outside of the corridor……..many areas where speeds are in excess of 70mph:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the 70 mph limit on a Trainweb trip report. He said that crewmembers told him the Canadian runs at 70 mph max..
Click to expand...

The Canadian is limited to 70mph max outside of the corridor by CN. It can go up to 100 inside the corridor. But VIA has other trains that can go much faster (the corridor, and some of the east coast services).


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## amtrakwolverine

I think via limits all trains to 100MPH max or at least the P-42 is limited to that speed by VIA.


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## NS VIA Fan

bretton88 said:


> The Canadian is limited to 70mph max outside of the corridor by CN. It can go up to 100 inside the corridor.


Sorry but that is not correct.......there are places outside the corridor where the Canadian is travelling in excess of 70 mph! I've been on it and have clocked it at 85mph across the prairies with a GPS and yes, my GPS is accurate....... and no we weren't making up time!

And where does the Canadian run "inside the corridor" as you say ? Other than a mile or so on each side of the USRC in Toronto (where speeds are restricted) and equipment moves to/from the TMC it does not run anywhere in the corridor.


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## Nathanael

I am most upset by the cuts to "Southwestern Ontario" rail service. These areas are the natural extension of the Toronto-Montreal Corridor, and is also the place where VIA links to the US.

And they're popular and crowded. The Stratford and London cuts appear to be arousing particular popular complaint.

http://www.southwesternontario.ca/news/via-cuts-stratford-service/

http://www.southwesternontario.ca/opinion/rail-service-cuts-hurt-passengers-city/

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/06/27/19925256.html

http://metronews.ca/news/london/279361/london-area-hit-hard-by-nationwide-via-rail-cuts/

Though I guess some of them are less popular than others.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/06/28/via-rail-cuts-means-fewer-trains-tofrom-windsor/

I realize that the "auto factory district" of Windsor/Detroit has been declining, but cutting rail service to it is NOT the answer.

The Niagara Falls cuts are particularly awful, poorly thought-out and generally a bad idea. VIA is cutting everything but the Maple Leaf!

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2012/06/27/niagara-travelers-impacted-by-via-cuts

And now, while GO Transit plans expansions to Niagara but before they are funded or implemented, is NOT the time for VIA to be cutting service to Niagara.

The Southwestern Ontario cuts are very poorly thought out and will be disastrous, both for the region and for VIA, which will earn permanent political hostility from the region for ill-thought-out cuts to busy trains on the implausible grounds of "focusing on VIA's core business" (by eliminating runs used heavily by commuters).

Sarnia will have ONE train per day. Niagara Falls will have ONE train per day, and it's the one from New York City, which means the westbound will never be on time. Windsor and London will still have multiple departures, but fewer. VIA has apparently decided that the Corridor ends in Toronto, and Southwestern Ontario can fend for itself.

Reading between the lines, it looks like VIA is trying to get GO to take over all the Southwestern Ontario services.

http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/752237--via-rail-blames-low-ridership-for-cuts-to-kitchener-service

But GO doesn't have the funding to replace VIA's services for years to come. I suppose it might get it -- but this path leads to the elimination of VIA in

its entirety. Canada's population is very Ontario-centric and very Toronto-centric, and if GO takes over all services in Southwestern Ontario, it won't be long before GO is taking over services from Toronto to Montreal and Quebec City too, and that's it for VIA.

---

It's also worth noting that there's a sharp dropoff in demand when you reduce a train from daily service to less-than-daily service; when the Ocean goes tri-weekly, it will probably lose even more money and will likely be axed entirely. It should have been left as a daily train, even if it isn't getting great ridership. VIA is making the mistakes which Amtrak *didn't* make back in the day; it's slicing off its potential sources of political support.


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## Gord

yarrow said:


> i know less than nothing of the canadian budget process and the needs of canada. i do recall however that the harper government is investing heavily in fancy fighter jets while cutting rail service.


And a billion dollar Windsor-Detroit bridge primarily for truckers / auto manfacturers at Windsor-Detroit.

Same old problem, chickenfeed subsidy to rail = nasty, horrible, socialist subsidy, huge subsidy to private enterprise = investment. Insult to injury, Canadian taxpayers are picking up most of the bridge tab even though it benefits both countries business.

Gord


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