# Tucson Streetcar: Public service starts tomorrow, possible expansions



## beautifulplanet (Jul 24, 2014)

This being the "Commuter Rail/Subway/Light Rail" forum, now there is a post about the Tucson Streetcar.  

So far, I was not able to find a thread about the Tucson streetcar. Many might be excited, as tomorrow (Friday, July 25) is the first day of public service.

Here is the link to the streetcar's official website:

http://www.sunlinkstreetcar.com

For the first three days, so starting tomorrow, rides are free.

On Friday, the SunLink streetcar starts public service around approximately 10 a.m., after several celebrations in the morning at different locations.

On Saturday, SunLink operates from 8 a.m. to 2a.m., and on Sunday from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.

The frequencies are as follows:

Friday:
service start (normally 7 am) - 6 pm: every 10 minutes
6 pm - 10 pm: every 20 minutes
10 pm - 2 am*: every 30 minutes

Saturday:
8 am - 10 pm every 20 minutes
10 pm - 2 am* every 30 minutes

Sunday:
8 am - 8 pm* every 20 minutes

*Start time for last trip of the day

To many, the Tucson streetcar so far might seem like a success story: the different levels of government worked together, the project did not go through a series of long delays like f.e. the H Street project in Washington D.C., and the total cost to bring it into operation remained around that $200 million mark that was originally projected.

In addition, it is being reported that the Tucson streetcar also was successful when it comes to economic development along the route:

"The cities which have already built a [streetcar] line have seen hundreds of millions of dollars in new development.

Even before it's finished, Tucson has seen $800 million in downtown investment both public and private."

source:
Sun Link Streetcar debuts
Posted: Jul 22, 2014 12:22 AM
Updated: Jul 22, 2014 5:00 AM
By Bud Foster
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/26074292/modern-street-car-makes-its-debut


Many might like the route chosen for Tucson's initial modern streetcar line: The nearly 4 mile long lines connects several interesting spots.

From the west to east it begins west of the river, on some land in the Mercado area that sat vacant since the 1980s, that now is planned to be redeveloped with Transit Oriented Development, so a mix of single-family homes, as well as multi-story multi-use buildings with ground retail, undergrund parking, and affordable apartments.
Due to the 2008 economic downturn due to the housing bubble, most of this new construction has not been carried out yet, still it is still in the plan and many hope it will be carried out as soon as possible.

After crossing the Santa Cruz river on a beautiful bridge towards the east, the route passes by two hotels, the Greyhound bus terminal and the convention center.
Then it goes through downtown, where many offices and jobs are located, and also has stops not far away from the Amtrak station.

After passing through underneath the railroad tracks the line goes right up the popular 4th Ave business district, with its many shops, bars and restaurants, heavily frequented by tourists and locals alike.

The route turns east again to slowly approach the university property on University Blvd, with a stop just a block from the huge Marriott hotel.
On the university campus, it has several stops, not only giving access to the Tucson State Museum but also to the Medical Center at the very end of the line, in the north east of the campus.

To many, it might seem like a route that includes a lot of interesting destinations and trip generators within just nearly 4 miles of route.

Also at least to some, it seems laudable that the whole line will be double-tracked (as in other cities other systems currently planned might not be), and that there was a survey that was being conducted with the businesses along the route about what is important to them regarding the streetcar. As part of the outreach process, the operating hours were determined as well, as f.e. Thursdays to Saturdays the bars and restaurants are still frequented even late in the night, so there will be a streetcar to get home even at 2 a.m.

To some, it will be exciting to see how the start of service will be like this weekend, and what the experience of the inhabitants and visitors of Tucson this weekend will be like.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 24, 2014)

Late night service on weekends is a tremendous idea. I assume bars are supposed to close at 2am or earlier in Tucson.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 24, 2014)

Thank you very much for your post.



Shawn Ryu said:


> Late night service on weekends is a tremendous idea.


Many might agree and think that it is great that Tucson actually made it happen. Because in other cities it doesn't happen (yet), f.e. downtown Orlando has lots of of restaurants, bars and clubs, still with the local commuter rail system there is no weekday downtown rail service after 9.25 p.m., and no rail service at all on weekends, and it would currently be impossible to introduce service after midnight there, as SunRail needs to be completely off the corridor by midnight because of a deal with a freight rail road company. So some might think the riders in Tucson are fortunate, because the city of Tucson doesn't only own the right-of-way without restrictions and can run streetcars whenever they want, but the city also actually did some market research and came up with a schedule that reflects demand.



Shawn Ryu said:


> I assume bars are supposed to close at 2am or earlier in Tucson.


The assumption seems to be correct, as the official Visit Tucson website by the Metropolitan Tucson Convention & Visitors Bureau states:



> Most clubs and entertainment venues close by 2 a.m.


source:

http://www.visittucson.org/things-to-do/restaurants/nightlife/


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 24, 2014)

Sounds great!,Tucson seems to have their act together and as a growing Sunbelt City that appeals to Tourists, Retirees and Students should find plenty of riders for this system!


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 25, 2014)

There seems to be a growing support for intracity public transit system in the US.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 25, 2014)

Shawn Ryu said:


> There seems to be a growing support for intracity public transit system in the US.


To many, it might seem like this could be an interesting topic to discuss. In order not to be off-topic, it might be better to have a thread of its own about it in the rail advocacy forum.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 25, 2014)

Some might be thrilled to hear, that even as the Tucson Streetcar did not even start operating in public service, already there are discussions about how to expand the system.

To many, the current nearly 4 mile route seems like a good route to start with. Still normally streetcar systems are pretty limited in length, and pretty much restricted to downtown areas and possibly areas in direct vincinity, but proposals heard recently could change that for Tucson, with calls to possibly build a 7 mile south expansion to the airport, another 7 mile route towards the north to Tucson Mall, and possibly in addition even an expansion along Broadway to El Con mall (approx. about 2 and a half miles).

Many might think, f.e. a connection from the airport to both downtown and the university might be very popular, as many students in town or visitors of the city travel into and out of it that way (rather than by car, or by train), and at the same time, the streetcar would serve a huge portion of the city along 6th Avenue.

Here's an except about some recent press report:



> They envision branching into a much broader rail system, from Tucson Mall to Tucson International Airport, and maybe east bound too.
> 
> State Senator Steve Farley has been pushing rail transit for about 13 years. Farley says private investors are already thinking of paying for the line he envisions because the streetcar lines will do so much to enhance real estate values.
> 
> ...


source:

Could Tucson’s streetcar system get much bigger?
By Craig Smith.

Jul 21, 2014

http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/Could-Tucsons-streetcar-system-get-much-bigger-268034151.html

To some, it might be hard to imagine that private investors will built streetcar lines for the city including coming up with all of the funding - no strings attached.

Still to many, it might be encouraging to hear the statements from a variety of officials, like in the following news report:



> Today was a day to dedicate the streetcar and acknowledge the people who were instrumental in making it a reality.
> 
> Former Tucson Mayor Bob Walkup who was the cheerleader, who went to Washington to urge the Vice President to approve the Tiger Grant loosening up $63 million and who, as an engineer, has plenty to say about how it was built.
> 
> ...


It may seem like the government body responsible for further planning is less enthusiastic, but at least still thinking about expansions though:



> The Regional Transportation Authority is already considering other routes to connect communities and spur development.
> 
> Down Sixth Avenue, to the Airport, maybe down Broadway to El Con mall or to the Tucson Mall.
> 
> The RTA says it will enjoy this day and think about where it might go next tomorrow.


source:

Sun Link Streetcar debuts
Posted: Jul 22, 2014 12:22 AM
Updated: Jul 22, 2014 5:00 AM
By Bud Foster

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/26074292/modern-street-car-makes-its-debut


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## XHRTSP (Jul 25, 2014)

It's hard to imagine a streetcar system or any rail meeting it's critical mass without hitting the airport. That should be one of the first priorities.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 25, 2014)

Like in New Orleans?


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## jis (Jul 25, 2014)

XHRTSP said:


> It's hard to imagine a streetcar system or any rail meeting it's critical mass without hitting the airport. That should be one of the first priorities.


Really? How about Denver (RTD)? Newark Light Rail (NJT)? HBLRT (NJT)? RiverLINE (NJT)? Even in Salt Lake City, the TRAX airport line is not even close to being the most heavily used line, specially at its airport end.


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## Paulus (Jul 25, 2014)

The frequencies on the Tucson streetcar are so abysmal that there's no point to having built it in the first place. At least it looks to be POP.



XHRTSP said:


> It's hard to imagine a streetcar system or any rail meeting it's critical mass without hitting the airport. That should be one of the first priorities.


Airport lines perform absolutely terribly.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 25, 2014)

Thank you for your post.



Paulus said:


> The frequencies on the Tucson streetcar are so abysmal that there's no point to having built it in the first place.


In which way are the frequencies "abysmal", when there's a streetcar coming every 10 minutes Mondays to Fridays from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. - should the frequency during that time of day be improved to every 7.5 minutes, every 6 minutes, possibly every 5 minutes, or should the service on nights and weekends just include more runs?

For many it would probably be interesting to hear more about ideas for improvements.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 25, 2014)

So - today's the day... 

Here is another recent article by Inside Tucson Business about how the streetcars is beneficial for many businesses along the route, and for development of the city in general:

Tucson’s $197 million streetcar becomes reality

Posted: Friday, July 25, 2014 4:00 am

by Hillary Davis

http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/tucson-s-million-streetcar-becomes-reality/article_1b30dd28-1365-11e4-b4e0-0019bb2963f4.html

Already the subheading of the article sounds interesting: "There are an estimated 850 businesses on four-mile streetcar route downtown" - many probably would not have thought there were so many businesses along the route of less than 4 miles...


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 25, 2014)

Some might think, the list of all the events created to celebrate the new Tucson streetcar this weekend looks pretty nice - as can be seen in the following news report:

Celebrating Tucson's new modern streetcar
Posted: Jul 25, 2014
By Tucson News Now Staff
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/26111862/events-to-celebrate-the-modern-streetcar


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## jebr (Jul 25, 2014)

Paulus said:


> XHRTSP said:
> 
> 
> > It's hard to imagine a streetcar system or any rail meeting it's critical mass without hitting the airport. That should be one of the first priorities.
> ...


That's as broad of a generalization as saying that it'll do terribly without the airport.

If an airport is relatively close to the urban core (I'm thinking specifically about MSP,) it should be on the rail line when feasable. Sure, if you're building a 20 mile line just to serve an airport (with green space or low density residential housing,) you'll have problems. But if you have a strong urban core and good population base between the urban core and the airport, it's worth building the line. Airports can drive plenty of traffic to the rail system if the rail system gets them where they want to go.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 25, 2014)

More Airports need Rail transportation like Philadelphia, St Louis,Chicago, San Francisco, Washington National and BWI,Seattle, Portland etc. have!

All are heavily used because they are affordable and convienent!


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## XHRTSP (Jul 25, 2014)

Well I am looking at the issue from an air traveler's prospective, and it does bum me out pretty bad when I fly into somewhere that doesn't have a fast direct shot rail line from the terminal to downtown. Working at O'Hare has definitely spoiled me.

So maybe the airport line doesn't have to be the first priority. But it should be within the next phase or two if the engineering and financials make sense. If you want people to visit, make it easy for them.


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## afigg (Jul 25, 2014)

XHRTSP said:


> Well I am looking at the issue from an air traveler's prospective, and it does bum me out pretty bad when I fly into somewhere that doesn't have a fast direct shot rail line from the terminal to downtown. Working at O'Hare has definitely spoiled me.
> 
> So maybe the airport line doesn't have to be the first priority. But it should be within the next phase or two if the engineering and financials make sense. If you want people to visit, make it easy for them.


Yes. for an airline rail transit connection to be really useful, there has to be at least a decent rail transit system for visitors arriving at the airport to connect to. A system with a single light rail line that runs from the airport out in the outer burbs to downtown or near downtown with few major destinations in-between is of limited value. The emphasis should be on first building out a local transit system that connects the major business and destination centers in the city metro region first for the locals to use. Once that is in place, then extend a line to the airport. Of course, much depends on the local geography and location of the airport with respect to the city layout.

As for the comment "Airport lines perform absolutely terribly", airport stops usually don't get the high passenger counts of the downtown stations. For the DC Metro, Reagan National Airport is somewhere in the lower middle of the pack for weekday passenger numbers as I recall. But the raw number of passengers at airport stops is not the important metric, it is instead the economic value those passengers mean to the city and regional economy. Visitors that arrive at the airport and use the transit system to stay at hotels in the city and use the transit system to get to business meetings put money into the local economy. Sometimes a lot of money for the city if they stay at $200 to $400 a night hotels and eat at the expensive restaurants in the city center over getting a rental car at the airport and staying at a hotel way out in the burbs because there is no local transit system.

As for Tuscon, a 4 mile streetcar line is a start and a short line at that. A light rail or commuter line to the airport can wait until there is a more extensive transit system to connect to.


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## afigg (Jul 25, 2014)

Shawn Ryu said:


> There seems to be a growing support for intracity public transit system in the US.


Depends on the city and state. There are an impressive number of transit projects and lines under construction or in advanced planning across the US, more than people might realize. LA and Denver are in the midst of a major transit expansion blitz with multiple lines under construction. The 2009 stimulus money and TIGER grants have kick started a number of streetcar projects across the US. Most cities with good transit systems have expansion projects underway.

But while there are new lines being built for LA, Denver, Twin Cities, DC, SF, NYC, etc, there are the cities where proposals and plans for transit systems face heavy opposition. In Cinncinati, the Governor and leading members of the state legislature made concerted efforts to kill the streetcar project, although fortunately they failed. Indianapolis was blocked by the state legislature from considering light rail for a city transit system. Even in the DC region, Phase 2 of the Silver Line for the DC Metro was in jeopardy for a while two years ago due to a close vote in the newly elected Loudoun County council to proceed with the project. Opponents used all the fear mongering tactics they could to try to block Metro from reaching Loudoun county including placing "Metro is Evil" signs on telephone poles and along the roads.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 26, 2014)

Many people might be excited, to see the reports of the launch day of Tucson's modern streetcar service.

In an article on the website of KJZZ radio some first-day riders explain how the streetcar is beneficial to them (besides the article featuring some nice pictures of the situation yesterday):



> One of the riders was Eleanor Leon. She’s a local artist and has a shop downtown called La Fashionista. She is looking forward to the positive economic impact she believes the trolley will have on downtown businesses.
> 
> “I have waited patiently for a year and half, this is the day that I ride this modern streetcar and have people drive right by my shop,” Leon said.
> 
> ...


source:

Long-Anticipated Streetcar Opens In Downtown Tucson
By Kate Sheehy
July 25, 2014

http://kjzz.org/content/39113/long-anticipated-streetcar-opens-downtown-tucson

The Arizona-Daily Star reported about some aspects not mentioned in other press reports:



> Tucson Bus Rider Union members, however, held signs beseeching city officials to not skimp on bus service to pay for the streetcar.
> 
> “We just want to make sure that the bus money stays with buses and they do the trolley on their own budget,” said Bus Rider Union member Jim Thomas.﻿ “Ninety-nine percent of public transportation in this town is done on buses.”


At least some might agree, that the bus funding should remain at the same level, though already in the last weeks there have been some reports about possible upcoming cuts in Tucson. Many might think it might not be good to cut funding to some public transportation in favor of other, unless the same service is actually being replaced by another transportation mode, still in most cases it might be that bus services remain important, especially as they complement rail systems and often act as feeders.



> Others think downtown has gotten too fancy.
> 
> “There are too many restaurants geared to a certain type of status,” said downtown resident Jorge Ruiz﻿, 47.
> 
> Ruiz said while he’s glad the streetcar’s here, he’s concerned lower-income folks don’t have a place in downtown’s renaissance.


Another aspect not mentioned in most other reports: gentrification. Some might think that while of course the new development along the route is intentional, desired and welcome, still lower-income folks should not be forgotten.



> A heavy police presence was maintained throughout the celebration. But most of the officers were off-duty and getting paid from a portion of a $306,000 federal transit security grant.
> 
> As for the other costs, most of those were covered by donations from Friends of the Tucson Streetcar and other groups, city officials said.


Many might think it's always helpful in case there is a local group supporting rail, and in Tucson there is the Friends of the Tucson streetcar, here is their website:

http://www.streetcarfriends.org/

Arizona Daily Star news article source:

Fanfare and hoopla usher streetcar into daily service

By Darren DaRonco

http://tucson.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/fanfare-and-hoopla-usher-streetcar-into-daily-service/article_b78683a7-92e4-5472-8a48-247c614278e8.html

Finally, KVOA reported on the streetcar improving Tucson's nightlife and many might like the following example of a nice evening by the representative of the 4th Ave Merchants Association:



> Kurt Tallis with the 4th Avenue Merchants Associations said he expects the construction pains to pay off.
> 
> "Imagine going on date night and having, let's say, pre-drinks at Mercado," he said. "Go have dinner Downtown. Dessert on 4th Avenue. And after dinner, a little dancing at Main Gate."
> 
> ...


source:

Tucson streetcar boosts night-life

by Sam Salzwedel

http://www.kvoa.com/news/tucson-streetcar-boosts-night-life/


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## Aaron (Jul 28, 2014)

beautifulplanet said:


> Also at least to some, it seems laudable that the whole line will be double-tracked (as in other cities other systems currently planned might not be), ...


A little nitpicky here, but it's not quite the whole line that's double tracked. The easternmost quarter mile between the 2nd/Cherry stop and the terminus at Warren/Helen is single track. The tunnel under Speedway is only wide enough for a single track. So, if there's an eastbound streetcar at 2nd/Cherry, it's got to hold waiting for any westbound streetcar at Warren/Helen to get out of the stop, through the tunnel under Speedway, and back onto 2nd street before it can proceed.

It's a bit of an annoyance in what is otherwise a pretty well constructed system, but my understanding is that the current tunnel wasn't the preferred location to cross Speedway. Originally, it was going to be a surface crossing at Cherry, but there was some sort of problem with water lines at that intersection that caused them to reroute it to the already existing Warren Ave pedestrian tunnel.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 28, 2014)

Thank you very much for the correction, that not the whole system is double-tracked, as the last 0.3miles from the 2nd/Cherry stop to the Warren/Helen stop are not.



Aaron said:


> A little nitpicky here, but it's not quite the whole line that's double tracked. The easternmost quarter mile between the 2nd/Cherry stop and the terminus at Warren/Helen is single track. The tunnel under Speedway is only wide enough for a single track. So, if there's an eastbound streetcar at 2nd/Cherry, it's got to hold waiting for any westbound streetcar at Warren/Helen to get out of the stop, through the tunnel under Speedway, and back onto 2nd street before it can proceed.
> 
> It's a bit of an annoyance in what is otherwise a pretty well constructed system, but my understanding is that the current tunnel wasn't the preferred location to cross Speedway. Originally, it was going to be a surface crossing at Cherry, but there was some sort of problem with water lines at that intersection that caused them to reroute it to the already existing Warren Ave pedestrian tunnel.


Yes, this is correct, one can also see it in the Bing Maps (not the bird's eye view, but the plain aerial view is recent enough), or in the following YouTube video starting at about 7:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-2IfQh9SM

To some it might seem like, that while with the current system it might not affect the quality of the operations much (as it's just the last 0.3 miles towards the terminus, a single-tracked section in the middle of the system might have been a way bigger obstacle), this single-tracked portion might become a significant obstacle when the proposed northern expansion towards Tucson Mall is built. That expansion would see the line extented from the current terminus towards the North. Then the single-track portion would be in the middle of the line, so some might think, that then it could lead to a more frequently occuring situation of the streetcar from the North having to wait at Warren/Helen or respectively the streetcar from the South/West having having to wait at 2nd/Cherry, negatively affecting the quality of the ride.

The other planned expansions don't include using the eastern-most part of the current 2nd Ave line, so it likely wouldn't affect them, see below:







source of image: http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/Tucson-streetcar-gets-rolling-expansion-eyed-268130452.html


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 29, 2014)

To many it might seem like the Tucson streetcar had a very successful first weekend, at least that's the way Tucson News Now is wording it:



> The Tucson Modern streetcar is winding up a very successful weekend.
> 
> Lots of people flocked to the downtown area to check it out for the first time. The total from Saturday alone was 25,000 passengers. That is almost a 1,000 more than those who rode it on Friday, when the streetcar started taking passengers on the rails for the first time.
> [...]
> Numbers for the three day free weekend totaled 60,000 riders - 17,000 on Friday, 25,000 on Saturday and 18,000 on Sunday.


source:

Successful first weekend for streetcar, will the trend continue?
Posted: Jul 28, 2014 4:32 PM
Updated: Jul 28, 2014 5:44 PM
By Carissa Planalp

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/26129049/successful-first-weekend-for-streetcar-will-the-trend-continue

In the following, this is a link to a TV report by KGUN9 from opening day:

First public riders board the streetcar
By Rikki Mitchell.

CREATED Jul 25, 2014

http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/First-public-riders-board-the-streetcar-268674852.html


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## Aaron (Jul 29, 2014)

beautifulplanet said:


> To some it might seem like, that while with the current system it might not affect the quality of the operations much (as it's just the last 0.3 miles towards the terminus, a single-tracked section in the middle of the system might have been a way bigger obstacle), this single-tracked portion might become a significant obstacle when the proposed northern expansion towards Tucson Mall is built. That expansion would see the line extented from the current terminus towards the North. Then the single-track portion would be in the middle of the line, so some might think, that then it could lead to a more frequently occuring situation of the streetcar from the North having to wait at Warren/Helen or respectively the streetcar from the South/West having having to wait at 2nd/Cherry, negatively affecting the quality of the ride.


My guess is that if the system were expanded to include a line running up and down Campbell, the Campbell corridor would be a separate service with transfers occurring at the existing Warren/Helen stop. Either that, or the tunnel and the Warren/Helen stop would be eliminated, and the streetcar would just continuing running down 2nd to Campbell where it either goes north or south or transfers to a separate Campbell line. If you had a Campbell line, you don't really need to go under Speedway any more. If you think about, the whole going under Speedway to the Warren/Helen stop is only done to provide service to University Medical Center, which it does, but only after a little bit of a hike. If you have the line continue up Campbell or connect to a Campbell line, you can get people right up the UMC front door.


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## beautifulplanet (Jul 29, 2014)

Thank you very much for your post.



Aaron said:


> My guess is that if the system were expanded to include a line running up and down Campbell, the Campbell corridor would be a separate service with transfers occurring at the existing Warren/Helen stop. Either that, or the tunnel and the Warren/Helen stop would be eliminated, and the streetcar would just continuing running down 2nd to Campbell where it either goes north or south or transfers to a separate Campbell line. If you had a Campbell line, you don't really need to go under Speedway any more. If you think about, the whole going under Speedway to the Warren/Helen stop is only done to provide service to University Medical Center, which it does, but only after a little bit of a hike. If you have the line continue up Campbell or connect to a Campbell line, you can get people right up the UMC front door.


Some might think, when looking at the little map of the proposed expansions above, that it might look like the current line would continue north, and at the same time there is no indication of a line going down Campbell towards the south from Speedway or Helen. And in addition many might think, it might be good in case a connection from Warren/Helen to Tucson Mall was built, if it was one line, not two separate lines Mercado - Warren/Helen, Warren/Helen - Tucson Mall requiring a transfer, as that might seem like an unnecessary inconvenience. And in the end, some might think, even though it would be desirable to have the single-track bottle neck removed as well, what would be even more desirable is not have those expansions built, in order to connect more parts of the city to frequent rail transportation, even if it was with permanent portion of 0.3 mi of single-track between Warren/Helen and 2nd/Cherry.


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