# Switching from one track gauge to another



## dadonatrain (Apr 14, 2022)

I have no rail experience at all other than riding as a passenger. So I want to know how any railroad would accomplish something I read today about shipping weapons from Slovakia or Poland, etc., to Ukraine.

Apparently the rails in Slovakia, Poland, and other Western European countries are a different gauge than Russian rails. I guess I knew that. I did not know, however, that rails in Ukraine match Russian gauge. I guess, thinking about it, I’m not surprised.

Apparently there is a Slovakian city near the border with Ukraine that has a rail yard with rails of both gauges. So rail cars of western gauge carrying weapons systems, or anything for that matter, bound for Ukraine can be switched to cars with Ukrainian/Russian gauge.

How do they do that? Would a car have two sets of wheels on one axle? Would they pick a car up off one set of trucks and set it onto the other size set? I’m just curious.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2022)

The most common way is to detach the trucks, jack up the cars, slip out the trucks of one gauge, slip in trucks of the other gauge, drop the cars onto them and attach them and off they go.

For freight though, they might just tranship them from cars of one gauge to cars of the other gauge too.


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## dadonatrain (Apr 14, 2022)

jis said:


> The most common way is to detach the trucks, jack up the cars, slip out the trucks of one gauge, slip in trucks of the other gauge, drop the cars onto them and attach them and of they go.
> 
> For freight though, they might just tranship them from cars of one gauge to cars of the other gauge too.


Thx.


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## west point (Apr 14, 2022)

I have often wondered how the brakes are handled on gauge changing cars. The easiest way would be for the truck to have all the brake equipment on the truck. That way just disconnect the brake line remove truck, add other truck and attach brake air line. Now how are hand brakes handled?


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 15, 2022)

jis said:


> For freight though, they might just tranship them from cars of one gauge to cars of the other gauge too.


For traditional freight wagons a lot of work but today with containerized freight would be a lot simpler, similar to how containers are moved between truck, train and ship.

For passenger trains I wonder if carriages with adjustable wheel sets would work since the difference is only 3 1/2 inches or so. Didn't they do something like this at one time for trains going between France and Spain, which is a larger gauge difference?


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## dadonatrain (Apr 15, 2022)

I agree in theory moving sea vans from one gauge car to another gauge car makes sense. I hadn’t thought of that. Don’t modify the cars; just move the “stuff” to a different car!

As it happens, the article I read that made me think of this subject was about Slovakia moving many, many freight cars loaded with parts of a huge anti aircraft missile defense system they are “loaning” to the Ukrainian military! Somewhat different, I suspect, from normal freight handling operations!


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## jiml (Apr 15, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Didn't they do something like this at one time for trains going between France and Spain, which is a larger gauge difference?


The international transition in Spain was resolved by building most newer (and HSR) lines in standard gauge - hence the run-through of TGV trains to Barcelona, for example. Since around 2008 though they use some sort of gauge changing mechanism on Talgos. I've seen video of it on YouTube and the process is described in detail here: Automatic track gauge changeover for trains in Spain (tecnica-vialibre.es) I'm hoping to see this happen in-person next February when we make our first visit there. I believe the older rolling stock is handled as described by @jis above.


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## joelkfla (Apr 15, 2022)

An archived video in .wmv format of the gauge change in action can be found here (the 2nd one):



:: CAF - Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, we create railway solutions ::



This link was in the Wikipedia article.


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## cirdan (Apr 15, 2022)

There used to be a train ferry from
Mukran I’m Germany to Russia . The ferry itself was broad gauge and there were thus broad gauge tracks and broad gauge switching engines used within Mukran docks .

There are a fair number of border crossings between standard gauge European countries and Ukraine , Bielorussia etc . The smaller ones sometimes do not have a physical track connection but passengers walk from one train to another and freight is similarly trans shipped. The bigger ones can also switch out trucks on both passenger and freight cars . Something similar happens on the border between Russia and China .

There are also plenty of examples of gauge changing trains . The most famous of these is the talgo but there are many others . For example in Japan to permit thru running between the classical network and the Shinkansen . Also Spain has some non talgo trains that switch gauge and Switzerland has one too . Typically these involve wheels that can slide on the axles or independent wheels without an axle that can be moved by any of a number of mechanisms .


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## JontyMort (Apr 15, 2022)

jiml said:


> The international transition in Spain was resolved by building most newer (and HSR) lines in standard gauge - hence the run-through of TGV trains to Barcelona, for example. Since around 2008 though they use some sort of gauge changing mechanism on Talgos. I've seen video of it on YouTube and the process is described in detail here: Automatic track gauge changeover for trains in Spain (tecnica-vialibre.es) I'm hoping to see this happen in-person next February when we make our first visit there. I believe the older rolling stock is handled as described by @jis above.


The Paris-Barcelona overnight Talgo - and I think there was a Geneva-Barcelona one too - used gauge-changing sheds at Port Bou from the 1970s onward. I‘m not sure when this ceased. Mere mortals got turfed off the standard gauge train in Port Bou for a change of train. Going north, the same happened at Cerbère on the French side of the border. The tunnel between Cerbère and Port Bou is double track - one standard gauge, the other Iberian.
As jiml says, the new high speed lines in Spain are all standard gauge.


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## George Harris (Apr 15, 2022)

cirdan said:


> For example in Japan to permit thru running between the classical network and the Shinkansen .


I don't think this is correct. There is at least one section of the traditional 1067 mm gauge network that was regauged to 1435 mm (standard 4'-8 1/2") to allow through running, but I understand that they have to use special narrower equipment on it as the lateral clearances are insufficient to pass a standard width Shinkansen coach. There are several places where cross platform connections do occur, frequently with very short times allowed for people to cross the platform. One we participated in allowed 8 minutes between arrival on a conventional train and departure of the connecting Shinkansen train. Everyone involved went through this process as the expected normal. Although at the time we rode it, it only had 1067 mm gauge tracks, the Seikan Tunnel between Hokkaido and Honshu had clearances and track bed to permit operation of Shinkansen trainsets, just requiring a third rail to be installed. I believe that segment of Shinkansen has since been built. 

As an aside, to have a track able to carry both narrow and standard gauge trains by use of a third rail is relatively easy and simple. Turnouts are considerably more complex, but do not represent a step into the unknown. Such a system is not practical between standard gauge and Russian gauge as the difference is too small. With the difference being only 3 1/2 inches and a standard rail head width being between 2 3/4 and 3 inches, there is insufficient room left for passage of the wider gauge train's wheel flanges.

I understand that it is no longer in place, but at one time there was at least one section of three gauge track in Australia. It had four rails. the middle two were 3'-6" apart, the outside rail on one side gave you standard gauge in relation to the inside rail opposite, and the outside rail on the other side gave you Irish gauge (5'-3") when mated with the other inside rail.


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## George Harris (Apr 16, 2022)

jis said:


> The most common way is to detach the trucks, jack up the cars, slip out the trucks of one gauge, slip in trucks of the other gauge, drop the cars onto them and attach them and off they go.


This is done between Russia and China, although I think it may actually be, for at least one route between China and Mongolia for a train or trains going through to Russia. These trains may be limited to certain specific cars built to allow easy disconnects between wheelsets and car body. I am reasonably certain that the engines do not run through.


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## Gemuser (Apr 16, 2022)

George Harris said:


> I understand that it is no longer in place, but at one time there was at least one section of three gauge track in Australia. It had four rails. the middle two were 3'-6" apart, the outside rail on one side gave you standard gauge in relation to the inside rail opposite, and the outside rail on the other side gave you Irish gauge (5'-3") when mated with the other inside rail.


Correct. It was rendered redundant in 1970 with the completion of standard gauge between Sydney & Perth in 1970.


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## toddinde (Apr 16, 2022)

A little off topic for freight, but Spain has broad gauge as well. Talgo makes trains with trucks that easily change gauges. The technology is definitely there to do it.


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## cirdan (Apr 16, 2022)

JontyMort said:


> The Paris-Barcelona overnight Talgo - and I think there was a Geneva-Barcelona one too - used gauge-changing sheds at Port Bou from the 1970s onward. I‘m not sure when this ceased.



By the early 2010s there were (from my recollection) the following cross-border Talgo trains between Spain and France.

Night trains:
- Madrid - Paris
- Barcelona - Paris
- Barcelona - Geneva - Zurich
- Barcelona - Milano

The first two were daily and the second two were thrice weekly.

Day trains
- Cartagena - Alicante - Barcelona - Portbou - Montpellier (Talgo Mare Nostrum)
- Barcelona - Portbou - Montpellier (this was the remaining stub of the former TEE Catalan Talgo that originally ran Barcelona - Geneva)

All of these transitioned from the broad to standard gauge at Portbou, expect the Madrid train which went via Irun.

The night trains to Zurich and Milano were discontinued in late 2012
The other two night trains followed a year later, that is in 2013.
Another year on, that is in 2014, the two day trains were also discontinued or cut back to domestic portions.

There are however still plenty of gauge changers within Spain used for domestic services.

I believe there is also a gauge changing Talgo from Berlin to Moscow via Minsk.


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## George Harris (Apr 16, 2022)

jiml said:


> The international transition in Spain was resolved by building most newer (and HSR) lines in standard gauge - hence the run-through of TGV trains to Barcelona, for example. Since around 2008 though they use some sort of gauge changing mechanism on Talgos. I've seen video of it on YouTube and the process is described in detail here: Automatic track gauge changeover for trains in Spain (tecnica-vialibre.es) I'm hoping to see this happen in-person next February when we make our first visit there. I believe the older rolling stock is handled as described by @jis above.


I hope that if India starts building high speed lines, they do not do this, but stick with Indian standard broad gauge for the high speed tracks. There is nothing magic about any particular track gauge. My thought for India would be to use Shinkansen concept trainsets with the bogies simply being built for the wider track gauge. Shinkansen trains are far more oriented toward quick movement of large numbers of people than any of the European concept trains. Also the use of EMU concept provides better adhesion for acceleration and high speeds than the end of train power units common in the European trains.


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## jis (Apr 17, 2022)

George Harris said:


> I hope that if India starts building high speed lines, they do not do this, but stick with Indian standard broad gauge for the high speed tracks. There is nothing magic about any particular track gauge. My thought for India would be to use Shinkansen concept trainsets with the bogies simply being built for the wider track gauge. Shinkansen trains are far more oriented toward quick movement of large numbers of people than any of the European concept trains. Also the use of EMU concept provides better adhesion for acceleration and high speeds than the end of train power units common in the European trains.


Indian HSR is being built using Standard Gauge. The first project currently under construction will use Shinkansen train sets (E5 Series capacity 1250 per trainset), pretty much out of the box with no significant modifications.


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## Willbridge (Apr 17, 2022)

jis said:


> Indian HSR is being built using Standard Gauge. The first project currently under construction will use Shinkansen train sets (E5 Series capacity 1250 per trainset), pretty much out of the box with no significant modifications.


Sounds like a wise choice. For four years people in Edmonton kept asking us how we could think that our 1978 LRT line could possibly open on time and on budget when important places like Toronto (LRV's), BART, WMATA, MARTA, etc. were so far behind and/or over budget. At unrelated public meetings somebody would always bring them up and all that I could say is that ours is a really big electric train set that came in a box (literally, in containers from Germany). We had learned that the place and time to start experimenting is on extensions or new lines, not the inaugural operation.

We did make a few changes. Upholstery and glazing were done locally, and we replaced the German safety signs! Hopefully, the signage for the Indian HSR will be in the appropriate languages.


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## jiml (Apr 17, 2022)

Given how few issues Brightline has had with their Siemens coaches vs. Amtrak Midwest, it makes you wonder if they went with "out-of-the-box" as opposed to custom.


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## George Harris (Apr 17, 2022)

jiml said:


> Given how few issues Brightline has had with their Siemens coaches vs. Amtrak Midwest, it makes you wonder if they went with "out-of-the-box" as opposed to custom.


Possibly true, also possible that issues were resolved quietly without publicity since Brightline is a private entity.


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## billosborn (Apr 19, 2022)

A few years ago, I traveled from Hungary to the Ukraine on an overnight train. At the border (Zahony on the Hungarian side, Chop on the Ukrainian side, the gauge changeover took about two hours. I am not sure what the process involves in changing the bogies, because I was trying to sleep - which got interrupted periodically with our carriage lurching back and forth, left to right.


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## jis (Apr 20, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTES: A number of posts about ferries have been moved to the pre-existing thread on Ferries:






Ferries, Ferries, and still more Ferries


Can't beat the still free Staten Island Ferry...a great ride across Upper New York Bay.....




www.amtraktrains.com





Further discussion of ferry should be done in that thread. Please refrain from ferry discussion in this thread.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


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## TinCan782 (Apr 20, 2022)

See This Train Switch Track Gauges Without Stopping
It’s only natural that the country famed for some of the world’s best watches can make its trains do the unthinkable.









Watch a Train in Switzerland Change Track Gauges Without Stopping


It's only natural that the country famed for some of the world's best watches can make its trains do the unthinkable.




www.thedrive.com


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## cirdan (Apr 22, 2022)

Talgos also switch gauge without stopping. They have specially designed locomotives that can also change gauge.

There is one such gauge changer near Tarragona and if you travel on the Euromed-branded train from Barcelona to Valencia, the first portion of the trip is on the high speed line at HSR speed and after transitioning to the broad gauge you continue on the upgraded classic line with some sections at regular speeds and some sections at speeds that are only slightly lower than HSR. The transition itself is at low speed. I would estimate a bit faster than a fast walking pace.

Similar gauge changers are used in many places in Spain.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 22, 2022)

An interesting side note about gauges with Russian Gauge. It started out as 1524 mm (60 inches) but in the Soviet era they tightened it to 1520 mm. Neighboring Finland and Estonia kept the original 1524 mm gauge. Trains do run between Russia and Finland/Estonia e.g. St. Petersburg to Helsinki (at least before COVID) and I guess the tolerances are such that the 4 mm difference is not an issue.


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## cirdan (Apr 22, 2022)

That reminds me of the Glasgow streetcar system that had a track gauge that nominally was 3/4 inch narrower than standard gauge specifically so that freight cars from the mainline railroad could be forwarded to industries. The thing being that regular freight cars could not be run on standard gauge streetcar tracks of the type adopted as the rail groove was both too shallow and too narrow, but they could be run with the tips of their flanges running on the bottom of the groove.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> An interesting side note about gauges with Russian Gauge. It started out as 1524 mm (60 inches) but in the Soviet era they tightened it to 1520 mm. Neighboring Finland and Estonia kept the original 1524 mm gauge. Trains do run between Russia and Finland/Estonia e.g. St. Petersburg to Helsinki (at least before COVID) and I guess the tolerances are such that the 4 mm difference is not an issue.


Before COVID they had the VR operation between Helsinki and St. Petersburg, and they also had the RZD operation of the Leo Tolstoy between Helsinki and Moscow overnight.

I had traveled on the Leo Tolstoy after the Soviet gauge tightening. There was no discernible difference in the ride between Finland and Russia.


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## JontyMort (Apr 22, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> An interesting side note about gauges with Russian Gauge. It started out as 1524 mm (60 inches) but in the Soviet era they tightened it to 1520 mm. Neighboring Finland and Estonia kept the original 1524 mm gauge. Trains do run between Russia and Finland/Estonia e.g. St. Petersburg to Helsinki (at least before COVID) and I guess the tolerances are such that the 4 mm difference is not an issue.


Similarly the nominal gauges in Spain and Portugal were originally different by 8mm - not enough to worry about.


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## George Harris (Apr 22, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I guess the tolerances are such that the 4 mm difference is not an issue.


It is not. Think 5/32 of an inch, or just a little over 1/8 inch. This is within construction tolerance. Then, also are we sure this was really 60 English system inches exactly? Not all inches and feet are equal around the world, even when those names are used.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 22, 2022)

jis said:


> Before COVID they had the VR operation between Helsinki and St. Petersburg, and they also had the RZD operation of the Leo Tolstoy between Helsinki and Moscow overnight.
> 
> I had traveled on the Leo Tolstoy after the Soviet gauge tightening. There was no discernible difference in the ride between Finland and Russia.


Was there service between Russia and Estonia before the "event" (and no, I don't mean that lil' war thing, but the big C over the past couple years) or recently in general?


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 25, 2022)

George Harris said:


> are we sure this was really 60 English system inches exactly?



60 inches x 25.4 mm/inch = 1524 mm

The 1520 mm gauge comes out to 59 and about 27/32 inches (59.8435+)


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## George Harris (Apr 25, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> 60 inches x 25.4 mm/inch = 1524 mm
> 
> The 1520 mm gauge comes out to 59 and about 27/32 inches (59.8435+)


You missed my point entirely. I have always heard the Russian five foot track gauge, but until I ran into a dimension defined as a foot locally in another country did it hit me that a "foot length" as defined in one country may not be the same length as a "foot length" as defined in another country. So my question was, is a Russian foot the same in actual length as an English foot, that is 25.4*12=304.8 mm? Apparently the answer is yes, but is that about the same or exactly the same?


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## JontyMort (Apr 25, 2022)

George Harris said:


> You missed my point entirely. I have always heard the Russian five foot track gauge, but until I ran into a dimension defined as a foot locally in another country did it hit me that a "foot length" as defined in one country may not be the same length as a "foot length" as defined in another country. So my question was, is a Russian foot the same in actual length as an English foot, that is 25.4*12=304.8 mm? Apparently the answer is yes, but is that about the same or exactly the same?


In the Russian case, yes it seems so. But your point that a “foot” might mean almost anything is supported by the origins of Iberian gauge - six Castilian feet and five Portuguese feet respectively - at least as suggested by wiki.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 26, 2022)

This is why the metric system was adopted by so many countries (not the US unfortunately).


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