# Disorderly ? passenger "ejected"



## GaSteve (Dec 18, 2011)

Passenger put off in "rural" Ashland, VA


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## Blackwolf (Dec 18, 2011)

Wait... So Amtrak ended up honoring their original tickets the following day and the two travelers were given transport to their destination? And only 24 hours later than originally scheduled? I really don't see much for grounds in terms of a lawsuit, or even a refund. They caused their own delay by being unruly, getting the boot, spending an evening in a hotel and then catching the next day's train. I'd not provide any reimbursement if I were Amtrak either, especially since my understanding is you have to be pretty darn bad to be kicked off.

Arm-chair quarterbacking, of course. But we really are only hearing the sensational reporting of one newspaper in Florida as a single side of the story.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 18, 2011)

It appears the disagreement resulteded from efforts to upgrade to a sleeper. The conductor told police the passengers were intoxicated. The police said passengers were cooperative. This should be interesting.


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

Yeah, that's going to be the interesting part...



> A police log shows that the call for help described "two drunk and disorderly passengers". It also reveals officers found the travelers to be sober and cooperative.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 18, 2011)

The type of Amtrak attendants I have seen on coach on some LD trains, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of one of them deciding to use his power to win an argument with a passenger and deciding to eject passenger midway just because s/he can. Sounds unlikely when thought of in vacuum, but in Amtrak context, I have seen they do have staff that is capable of doing something like this.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Dec 18, 2011)

IMO there needs to be more over sight over how conductors run trains ..

absolute power corrupts.... cough TSA cough ...

That said .. I am not going to put my $.2 in . on this particular case as all the data is not in here right now...

Peter


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## DivMiler (Dec 18, 2011)

From the newspaper article:



> It may seem like getting kicked off a commuter train only happens in the movies, but a South Florida woman recently found out the hard way that it happens in real life.


I wasn't aware of any commuter trains going from New York to Florida...


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## jdcnosse (Dec 18, 2011)

DivMiler said:


> From the newspaper article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha I thought the same thing.

Apparently commuter train = long-distance train.

It'll be interesting to see the details on this. If they were intoxicated, then the conductor did have the right to give them the boot if they were disturbing the other passengers. IF they weren't...well then obviously the conductor didn't have that right. I think the main thing is if they were causing a "ruckus" on the train...but this is where the legal-ness is sketchy...since it's mainly up to (and solely up to) the conductor to decide the deboarding option...

So that's my take on it. IF they were being unruly, then they don't deserve anything, and in fact Amtrak was being nice by letting them board the next day without having to pay anything extra (Planes/Greyhound...they never let you do that). Slightly off topic, but I was explaining to my girlfriend how even if you miss your train, if you're in coach you can still get up to a 90% cash refund, or a 100% refund on a voucher. She explained that if you miss your bus on Greyhound...too bad. Buy a new ticket.

But if they weren't being unruly, then yes Amtrak should compensate them.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 18, 2011)

Is Ashland "in the middle of nowhere"?  Id think not since its so close to Richmond and they were able to get a hotel and catch the Train the next day! Be interesting to see all the facts, my natural skepticism makes me think a lawyer wouldnt take a case over a few hundred dollars unless they thought they could settle the case! Ive known a few power tripping conductors and OBS myself, but doubt if this one will go anywhere, might be worth Amtraks while to just settle this nusciance suit for a thousand bucks or so and have it go away!(maybe one of our attorney members in Florida will have some insight on this matter as pertains to Florida Law versus Federal Law since it happened in Virginia in Interstate Commerce?? :unsure: ) We dont want to encourage Fortune Hunters and Ambulance Chasers to file more suits against Amtrak, there's already enough of those IF this is the case here!! :help:


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## George Harris (Dec 18, 2011)

jdcnosse said:


> It'll be interesting to see the details on this. If they were intoxicated, then the conductor did have the right to give them the boot if they were disturbing the other passengers. IF they weren't...well then obviously the conductor didn't have that right.


Not so. Being a troublemaker and unruly is sufficient, whether drunk or sober.



> IF they were being unruly, then they don't deserve anything, and in fact Amtrak was being nice by letting them board the next day without having to pay anything extra . . . .
> 
> But if they weren't being unruly, then yes Amtrak should compensate them.


This is where your confuse me. Unruly only = should have been allowed to stay on train. Kicked off for being unruly = should have been required to pay another fare to be let back on. What am I missing?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 18, 2011)

Another story of a conductor that refused to do a on-board up-grade. Bet he told the people to buy there ticket at the next train station. Bet you there frequent travelers and know the system. Conductor lazy, and got friends who will cover for him.

Too bad the Police did not charge him with file a false and misleading police report.

Maybe if Amtrak would pay the counductor a small amount of money ever time they do this type of transaction. This problem would stop.

Oh no I am getting flamed for that last one....


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## johnny.menhennet (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but how could the passengers have gotten back on the next day in the same direction if the Card is tri-weekly? Did they go back the other way?


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## jacorbett70 (Dec 18, 2011)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but how could the passengers have gotten back on the next day in the same direction if the Card is tri-weekly? Did they go back the other way?


Because it was the Meteor, train 97, not the Card, train 51.


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## jdcnosse (Dec 18, 2011)

George Harris said:


> jdcnosse said:
> 
> 
> > It'll be interesting to see the details on this. If they were intoxicated, then the conductor did have the right to give them the boot if they were disturbing the other passengers. IF they weren't...well then obviously the conductor didn't have that right.
> ...


Yes, I apologize as that was what I meant. Typically those intoxicated can be quite annoying to the rest of us, however all they have to do is disrupt the public to have grounds for dismissal.



> > IF they were being unruly, then they don't deserve anything, and in fact Amtrak was being nice by letting them board the next day without having to pay anything extra . . . .
> >
> > But if they weren't being unruly, then yes Amtrak should compensate them.
> 
> ...


I was saying that if we find out that they were disrupting the public, then the conductor had just means to boot them. If they weren't disrupting the public then they should get the compensation they're seeking for being kicked off a train and forced to spend extra money to stay somewhere they weren't expecting.

It was however nice that Amtrak honored the ticket on the next trip, even though the ticket (I'm assuming) was pulled already since they were on the train. In normal circumstances, if you get off at a station that isn't your end point (for a smoke break or whatever) and don't get back on, you have to buy a new ticket for wherever you are to your end point.

So if they were disrupting the public, then Amtrak went out of their way to allow them to continue on their trip without paying for another ticket, even if they were booted by a conductor following the "rules."


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## johnny.menhennet (Dec 18, 2011)

jacorbett70 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but how could the passengers have gotten back on the next day in the same direction if the Card is tri-weekly? Did they go back the other way?
> ...


Sorry... I didn't actually read the article, just relied on the OP's info


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## Meat Puppet (Dec 18, 2011)

GaSteve said:


> Passenger put off in "rural" Ashland, VA


This incident occurred over a month ago. You can read the victims detailed version of it here http://www.getpayback.com/railroads-trains/amtrak/


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## Anderson (Dec 18, 2011)

Yeah. 3:15 PM out of NYP is the Meteor.

I'd _love_ to see the discovery on this one. My _best_ guess is that the conductor didn't want to do the upgrade, the passengers got argumentative when he didn't want to (and I know that some people can get _very_ sore when they don't get their way), the conductor assumed that they'd gotten drunk and put them off as a result. However, I don't know what happened...this is a guess and nothing more.


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## pennyk (Dec 18, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Is Ashland "in the middle of nowhere"?  Id think not since its so close to Richmond and they were able to get a hotel and catch the Train the next day! Be interesting to see all the facts, my natural skepticism makes me think a lawyer wouldnt take a case over a few hundred dollars unless they thought they could settle the case! Ive known a few power tripping conductors and OBS myself, but doubt if this one will go anywhere, might be worth Amtraks while to just settle this nusciance suit for a thousand bucks or so and have it go away!(maybe one of our attorney members in Florida will have some insight on this matter as pertains to Florida Law versus Federal Law since it happened in Virginia in Interstate Commerce?? :unsure: ) We dont want to encourage Fortune Hunters and Ambulance Chasers to file more suits against Amtrak, there's already enough of those IF this is the case here!! :help:


If I was a personal injury lawyer, I would not take the case. Most PI lawyers take cases on a contingency and accept a percentage of the recovery as their attorney fee. Attorneys generally evaluate the case based on the amount of damages and liability. I do not see a large amount of damages suffered by the complaints, but then again, I am not privy to all the facts and I am not a personal injury lawyer.


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## Anderson (Dec 18, 2011)

pennyk said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Is Ashland "in the middle of nowhere"?  Id think not since its so close to Richmond and they were able to get a hotel and catch the Train the next day! Be interesting to see all the facts, my natural skepticism makes me think a lawyer wouldnt take a case over a few hundred dollars unless they thought they could settle the case! Ive known a few power tripping conductors and OBS myself, but doubt if this one will go anywhere, might be worth Amtraks while to just settle this nusciance suit for a thousand bucks or so and have it go away!(maybe one of our attorney members in Florida will have some insight on this matter as pertains to Florida Law versus Federal Law since it happened in Virginia in Interstate Commerce?? :unsure: ) We dont want to encourage Fortune Hunters and Ambulance Chasers to file more suits against Amtrak, there's already enough of those IF this is the case here!! :help:
> ...


No, but if they get a "good" venue, they might be able to get a lot of money on the punitive side of things. And there's a case for the venue to be:

-Virginia (where the incident happened)

-Florida (presumably their residence)

-DC (Amtrak's HQ)

I could see any of the three prevailing.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 18, 2011)

Texan Eagle said:


> The type of Amtrak attendants I have seen on coach on some LD trains, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of one of them deciding to use his power to win an argument with a passenger and deciding to eject passenger midway just because s/he can. Sounds unlikely when thought of in vacuum, but in Amtrak context, I have seen they do have staff that is capable of doing something like this.


However making a false police report is a felony so Just cause the attendant thinks they can abuse their power they can't abuse the law. Attendant says to police the passengers are drunk unruly etc police say different that can be classified as making a false report or lying to police.


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## rrdude (Dec 18, 2011)

Well, I just read the report form the link in this thread, written by the passenger. And sure, "Monday morning quarterbacking" is EZ, both for the writer of the report, and the conductor. But even given that, I've witnessed so many similar instances over te years, I'm going with the passenger on this one............... Plus the "fact" that the writer reports the police were so cooperative........ "Assuming" all that the passenger writes is true, why does this conductor even HAVE a job today?


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## amamba (Dec 18, 2011)

Very interesting to read the pax's version of this.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 18, 2011)

The conductor is GONE. Even the crew didn't have her back. If management does any kind of investigation they can get rid of this person.


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## sechs (Dec 18, 2011)

"My mother is in the dining car with chest pains. I'll go searching the train for the conductor to get a sleeper." Am I missing something?

On my last trip on the Chief, I saw a guy suddenly get very civil when the police came aboard to escort him off the train.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 19, 2011)

I can totally believe the story. I've seen an Amtrak Conductor get a police escort for a passenger who argued with her about not opening another coach up for passengers. While he was a bit argumentative, he had not done anything to deserve to be thrown off the train. Anyone else have any stories about this "Mellisa Rose" ?


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## tp49 (Dec 19, 2011)

Anderson said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > jimhudson said:
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Regardless of the venue the law of the Commonwealth of Virginia would be used in deciding any case on its merits. Though I don't think it would ever get that far.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 19, 2011)

Meat Puppet said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> > Passenger put off in "rural" Ashland, VA
> ...


Thanks for the link. Left me feeling sick after read the passengers report. Hope the conductor gets fired. Some crews are so good, others well they need to meet the unemployment line.

Edit for spelling. Lack of or need for more coffee


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## pennyk (Dec 19, 2011)

This story is reported in today's (12/19) edition of the Orlando Sentinel print edition on the front page of the business section. The story still refers to the train as a "commuter train." There is a photo of the passengers at the end of the story, on page 4. It is likely that the exact story was picked up from the initial newspaper, which may also be a Tribune newspaper.


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## VentureForth (Dec 19, 2011)

99% of the time, I'd side with the conductor on this. But if there was a train on which I've been where the conductor has been less than reasonable, less than compassionate, less than cooperative, it would be on the Silver Service. I've been absolutely refused a sleeper upgrade on this train, too, though I can't verify that it was Melissa Rose - though come to think of it, it could have been.

There comes a time, though, that the customer just needs to back off. Recognize you are dealing with someone who is not capable of being dealt with and count your losses.

On thing that really irritates me about Amtrak is the total lack of professionalism during "down time".

When I worked at Disney, we were trained that we were ALWAYS working when we were "on stage," which was any area where guests could see us. If I had a name tag on, and I was anywhere a guest was, my professionalism and courtesy was always expected - whether I was on the clock or not.

This obviously doesn't happen at Amtrak. About the most professional employee I've seen on an Amtrak train is the SCA. I've rarely seen them outside of their car unless they were dining. But conductors, assistant conductors, LSAs, SAs, coach attendants, chefs, cafe car attendants - the lot of them - I've seen taking up guests' spaces and completely ignoring the fact that they are supposed to be professsionals.

Could the detrained and his mother avoided being kicked off the train? Certainly. They could have backed off. Should they have had to? Absolutely not.

Any one out there riding the Silvers soon, willing to get kicked off, that would like to record a dialog with Melissa Rose in an upgrade conversation?

If she is as vindictive with everyone as she was with the victim, there should be some sort of matrix that shows that she upgrades the least number of rooms and has the highest number of service disruptions. Someone in management must know.... Of course the ones who do probably just left in the massive Voluntary Separation Incentive Program.


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## Ryan (Dec 19, 2011)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Meat Puppet said:
> 
> 
> > GaSteve said:
> ...


Just remember that there are two sides to every story, and this one is told in a way to garner sympathy towards one side. There were a few things that struck me as "off" in the narrative, most notably this:



> So, I continued to express my poor opinion of her personality and professionalism. I am not proud of my outburst. I suffer from an anxiety disorder and take medication to control it. However, Melissa Rose’s attitude and extreme passive aggressiveness was more than I could handle. This woman should not hold a job dealing with the public. She is nasty, cold, unprofessional, and has an unfortunate demeanor more suited for prison guard duty in a maximum security prison.


Pretty vague, and what she said could may well be enough to get her put off the train. It's very easy to "turn it off" when the police show up and leave the impression that you've been this calm and collected the whole time.

Not saying that the conductor is right, but I'm certainly not leaping to any judgements after reading this account either.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 19, 2011)

Unfortunately, the passenger's account rings true to my experiences with Amtrak emplyees. I've learned to work around it by planning carefully. Because many conductors resist on board upgrades, I don't do them. I also am aware of pitfalls involving sca's and lsa's I and work around them too. Then I can enjoy my trip. Really, I shouldn't have to put this much energy to appease ignorant, lazy, nasty employees. But I do because I love riding trains.


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## MiRider (Dec 19, 2011)

While I may not have as many miles under my belt as a lot you do, I look at it this way...

The conductor is the captain of the train.

I would no more argue with a conductor or any attendant on the train anymore than I would with the captain or flight attendant on a plane - see how far that gets you.

The plane is getting turned around at that point and the passenger is going to be removed and/or arrested.

We've only heard one side of the story here so I'll have to withhold judgement on Melissa Rose's conduct but, based on what I've read, they questioned her authority and were out of line.

I'm willing to bet that the passenger's *outburst* that they attributed to their *anxiety disorder* led her to believe they were drunk and disruptive - she was in charge and certainly allowed to make that judgement call.

All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses.

There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.


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## haolerider (Dec 19, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> Unfortunately, the passenger's account rings true to my experiences with Amtrak emplyees. I've learned to work around it by planning carefully. Because many conductors resist on board upgrades, I don't do them. I also am aware of pitfalls involving sca's and lsa's I and work around them too. Then I can enjoy my trip. Really, I shouldn't have to put this much energy to appease ignorant, lazy, nasty employees. But I do because I love riding trains.


The shame is that you need to "work-around" the employees. Having worked for Amtrak and having ridden almost every Long Distance and Regional trains, I have to admit that the quality of the employees is not the best; however as with most customer service driven companies, the negative employees get the most attention and the high quality employees receive very little recognition, in fact in some cases they are seen as irritants to those employees who don't want to give quality service. Conductors, by the nature of their job are often times focused on the operational aspects of running the trains and have little customer service training or appreciation for the fact that the passengers are paying their salaries. In the case being discussed on this thread, I would tend to side with the passengers, since I have seen Conductors tell passengers that there are no sleepers available, when I knew there were several open. The fact that they need to call and get a price and then go through paper work seems to be a burden some of them don't want to handle, even though it means more money for the company and a satisfied customer.

What is the solution? I know additional Customer Service training is needed - for all crafts - and I have seen efforts to make this happen, but it always seems to fall short. I am an advocate of Management riding trains on a constant basis,or the development of a program that would put non-union Chiefs back on the trains; however the union has shown a strong unwillingness to allow that to happen.


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## Ispolkom (Dec 19, 2011)

One aspect I don't see addressed: were they able to upgrade on the next night's train?


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## henryj (Dec 19, 2011)

Fortunately in my travels I have not come across a 'Melissa Rose' but I know they are out there. There are also unruly and obnoxious passengers. Hopefully Amtrak will give Rose what she deserves.


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## rrdude (Dec 19, 2011)

You know what really sucked when I was an OBS, and after reading the passengers report, still appears to be a problem from time-to-time, is that certain conductors can go on "power trips" and be *just as nasty* to the OBS crew, as they are to the paying passengers.

Each line or route probably has their story to tell, but I used to avoid the Wolverine, and Saint Clair in Michigan like the plague, due to a completely off-his-rocker conductor is just seemed to hate ever employee and passenger. It didn't matter WHAT you did, this guy would yell at you for something. I think I had more passengers complain to me, a lowly LSA, about him, than on all other routes I ever worked, combined.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 19, 2011)

JoanieB said:


> I would no more argue with a conductor or any attendant on the train anymore than I would with the captain or flight attendant on a plane - see how far that gets you. The plane is getting turned around at that point and the passenger is going to be removed and/or arrested.


In one sense you're right, in that arguing with a conductor is likely to be a pointless and fruitless endeavor with someone who has no specific expectation to treat you a certain way and has the option to put you off wherever they please if you show them anything but subservience. On the other hand, it's not quite apples to apples. For instance, there is virtually no time during a flight that you'll be able to discuss anything with the captain on a plane unless they are relieved from the flight deck by another crew member. Nor is there any process or method for upgrading while aboard which the captain of an aircraft could intentionally interfere with. In other words, while I have rather specific opinions of several Amtrak conductors (both good and bad) I have virtually no opinion of most aircraft captains because I've never had an opportunity (or reason) to interact with them.



JoanieB said:


> All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses. There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.


True, but deciding to kick someone out of your store or restaurant is a relatively minor event compared to dropping them off in the middle of nowhere, potentially with no obvious means of getting home.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 19, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> It appears the disagreement resulteded from efforts to upgrade to a sleeper. The conductor told police the passengers were intoxicated. The police said passengers were cooperative. This should be interesting.


If the police report states they found the ejected passengers to be sober and cooperative, this will indeed get very interesting.

Though this has to remind of me of our other thread, discussing how does one force/make the conductor follow the manual. Getting ejected from the train, even if you were in the "right", isn't really the best course of action.


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## dlagrua (Dec 19, 2011)

It would be nice if all passengers who claim bad treatment by the crew would carry a small camcorder with them to record the incident. This way we can get the bad seeds removed from the system. This Melissa Rose character is obviously a very bitter and crass human being. Amtrak would serve themselves well to rid themselves of people who would stoop so low as to eject a sick and elderly woman from the train. Amtrak also needs to change the system concerning onboard upgrades. It cannot be left to the discretion of the conductor whether they feel like doing the paperwork or not. You should be able to call in and purchase the upgrade while en route.


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## EB_OBS (Dec 19, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak also needs to change the system concerning onboard upgrades. It cannot be left to the discretion of the conductor whether they feel like doing the paperwork or not. You should be able to call in and purchase the upgrade while en route.


That's not a bad idea. What Amtrak really needs to do is stop selling onboard upgrades at the lowest bucket. There's no reason for it anymore. If onboard upgrades were the same price as at the ticket window, people would stop waiting 'til they are on the train to get a sleeper. Station agents and ticket agents are there to sell tickets. It's 90% of what they do.

With consistent record ridership and full trains year round it's unnecessary to sell rooms at the lowest price by default.


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## Anderson (Dec 19, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > It appears the disagreement resulteded from efforts to upgrade to a sleeper. The conductor told police the passengers were intoxicated. The police said passengers were cooperative. This should be interesting.
> ...


I tend to agree. My inclination would have been to turn my camera's video/audio option on, hand it to a friend, and then have the discussion. If things went poorly, an email to management with a link to a non-public YouTube video would have been in the offering...and of course, that's if I didn't try to chat up the next conductor and work on them (bad hours of the night notwithstanding).

It seems clear to me that there were at least two outbursts on that trip, and that would have probably "done it" for the conductor. My best guess still stands on what happened...though I'm also left wondering: If a conductor tries to call the police for a non-drunk and disorderly passenger (basically, a thin-skinned conductor on a power trip), could the police simply say "We will not remove that passenger" if no clear cause (such as D&D) is given?


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 19, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> What Amtrak really needs to do is stop selling onboard upgrades at the lowest bucket.


I think they already have. <_<

But then maybe I've been reading different articles and riding different trains than you have. hboy:


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## haolerider (Dec 19, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
> ...


Actually there are restrictions regarding filming or taking pictures of crew members, plus what would you do if someone came to your workplace with a complaint and began filming your response? Not a good idea!


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## henryj (Dec 19, 2011)

More of what I am reading in this confrontation is that these two people knew each other from other trips. Apparently this women had done this on board upgrade many times before always hoping to get the low bucket price. Otherwise she would have just reserved the room before boarding or when she bought the ticket. So what I get out of it is that the Conductor Rose had just had enough of this and refused to sell her a room causing the subsequent blow up. What Rose did wrong is taking it upon herself to do this. Remember in the retail busines the customer is always right and if Amtrak allows on board upgrades then you have to do it whether or not you like it or the customer. Of course if this women had been a reader on here she would have known to just get on line and make a reservation from the next stop and picked up her new ticket then the conductor would have no choice but to let her into her room. From what I read today on Bruce Richardson's blog, Amtrak is disintegrating anyway so you may see more of this behavior.


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## Big Iron (Dec 19, 2011)

Could it be the Conductor did not want to do the upgrade until Richmond due to the possiblity that it was her crew change point and it would be the next Conductor's item to deal with? I know Regional crews change in RVR but don't know about LD crews.

It seems to me that the function of accommocation upgrades should be with the SCA/LSA. While they certainly contribute to the safe operation of the train it is not their primary task and could deal with it better than the Conductor.


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## MattW (Dec 19, 2011)

haolerider said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
> ...


Actually, as far as I know, the only restrictions posted by Amtrak publicly are that on-board photography/videography must comply with crew member instructions. The only place you [should] run into trouble is if the state you're in is a two-party consent state (Illinois or Massachusetts are the two main ones) although recent court rulings may be to our favor in that regard.

(bolding mine) That's the same argument police officers have used many times to justify their illegal orders for people to shut their cameras down and delete the images or footage. Public servants in public spaces should not be in that position if they have a problem being filmed.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 19, 2011)

Big Iron said:


> It seems to me that the function of accommocation upgrades should be with the SCA/LSA. While they certainly contribute to the safe operation of the train it is not their primary task and could deal with it better than the Conductor.


That sounds pretty logical to me. But I'm sure we're just a few posts away from hearing how it would be impossible for Amtrak to improve efficiency and delegate tasks because of some obscure rule based on an ancient tradition that has nothing to do with anything going on in the world today. -_-



MattW said:


> Public servants in public spaces should not be in that position if they have a problem being filmed.


Try telling that to Shirley Sherrod.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 19, 2011)

henryj said:


> Apparently this women had done this on board upgrade many times before always hoping to get the low bucket price. Otherwise she would have just reserved the room before boarding or when she bought the ticket. So what I get out of it is that the Conductor Rose had just had enough of this and refused to sell her a room causing the subsequent blow up. What Rose did wrong is taking it upon herself to do this.


Do the Amtrak "rules" require the conductor to sell an on-board upgrade? Or is it at the discretion of the conductor?

Seems the power-play between the passenger and this one conductor has been building for a while, across many train runs.

While the "customer is always right", there are certainly many businesses that ban certain people from their stores, simply because they are high-maintenance.


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## Ryan (Dec 19, 2011)

The service standards manual says (page 8-99):



> The Conductor or Assistant Conductor must take the following steps to upgrade a passenger from Coach to Sleeping Car accommodation.


It isn't clear if the "must" refers to the fact that the conductor must process the upgrade if available, or that IF they do process the upgrade, these are the steps that they "must" take.


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## gdj (Dec 19, 2011)

Aside from customer service considerations, if this thing winds up down at the courthouse in VA, I've wondered what impact will the fact that in VA conductors are conservators of the peace with arrest authority? The court could very well treat the conductor's testimony as that of a law enforcement officer in any he said she said situation.

Gary


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## Steve4031 (Dec 19, 2011)

I think the upgrade process is the problem. Passengers in the know try to beat the system. Conductors tired of the process resist. IMHO Amtrak could set up a process for coach passengers to upgrade at low bucket on day of a departure. This is a win win.


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## Railroad Bill (Dec 19, 2011)

Having experienced a few Amtrak employees with less than stellar people skills, I can see how this episode escalated into a confrontation. It sounds like this particular conductor needs to have some retraining in her job. Or if she is really unhappy, perhaps pursue something that is less customer oriented 

But it does seem like the passengers should look into getting a sleeper from NYP or WAS on their return trips to Florida. This certainly would have lessened the opportunity for this conductor to play havoc with their trip.  I can't believe they saved that much money by upgrading onboard and they sure would have avoided the "ulcers"/

I would agree with the earlier post that it is unfortunate that conductors are burdened with these onboard upgrade responsibilities and that this could be made the responsibility of the car attendants, LSAs, etc. Most conductors see their positions as one of trainmen and not of the onboard staff. Since their tenure on the train is limited to the mileage between their crew change points, they probably have less interest in the needs of the long distance passengers in sleepers. :mellow:

The worst part of this whole incident is that it becomes another black eye for Amtrak in the press, giving those who want Amtrak to fail more ammunition.

Nonetheless; we will be on the Meteor next month and hope we don't see Ms Rose on our trip :help:


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 19, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> I think the upgrade process is the problem. Passengers in the know try to beat the system. Conductors tired of the process resist. IMHO Amtrak could set up a process for coach passengers to upgrade at low bucket on day of a departure. This is a win win.


The idea that passengers are "trying to beat the system" by following it to the letter doesn't make any sense to me. If the conductors are secretly upset at selling a room for too low of a price (a claim which is common but has yet to be substantiated in any way whatsoever) then isn't it their responsibility to take it up with management instead of blaming the passenger?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 19, 2011)

Conductors are union, so why can't there union step up, and get this policy changed?

This event would of been a non-starter if the Conductor did her job in a timely manner, in which she get pays to do.

So yes this is a experence traveler, but most of us on this web site are too. Does this mean we can not ask for a room by its number, or get a Red Cap to board early so we can get a seat on a certain side of a train.

I agree that this a loop hole that should be change by Amtrak, but the conductor does not have the option of selling a berth to someone. It's there job.

Last question: So if the adult son was cause all the problems why was the mother kick off the train too?

I know stop thinking, but it's what I do.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 19, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the upgrade process is the problem. Passengers in the know try to beat the system. Conductors tired of the process resist. IMHO Amtrak could set up a process for coach passengers to upgrade at low bucket on day of a departure. This is a win win.
> ...


IMHO the conductor is upset by the extra paper work. I did this twice years ago and it appeared to be a laborious process. I appreciated the efforts of both conductors. Neither was happy about the work, but they did it.

The system sets up an adversarial relationship between the conductor and passenger. If the passenger checks sleeper rooms on day of departure and sees a high price, the passenger knows to wait and get the low bucket fare on the train. I don't think the conductors care about the price of the room. They just don't want the extra work. So they resist. If the conductor legitimately has to deal with train orders, meets with freights, collecting tickets, etc the passenger might not understand. Then that is unpleasant too. It's a no win situation for the conductor.

This does not excuse the nastiness of the conductor in thus case.

I think the technology already exists to sell sleepers at low bucket prices on day of departure. This might allow coach seats to open up on a sold out train. This would not create that much work for ticket agents. It would then take the conductors out of picture. I think the current system is a part of the old way of doing things before computers.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 19, 2011)

maybe amtrak should install security cameras on the trains so we can really see who is at fault.


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## PaulM (Dec 20, 2011)

JoanieB said:


> There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement ...


Count me as one of them. If there is a room available, and I have the money to pay for it, and I'm first in line, then I'm entitled to it, at least until Amtrak changes their policy.


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## Anderson (Dec 20, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
> ...


The problem with having fares "dive" on the day of a trip is three-fold:

1) Unlike airlines, the Auto Train notwithstanding, none of Amtrak's trains are nonstop. So you've got a variable number of rooms available...to take the Meteor, you might have 4 rooms to RVR, 2 from RVR-CHS, 3 from CHS-JAX, 4 JAX-ORL, and 12 ORL-MIA. What do you "down-price"?

2) Amtrak allows re-booking if room prices fall. Wouldn't a last-minute cut in fares risk a lot of money "walking out the door" with canny re-booking? With a train of canny passengers, it would _seem_ that there's the risk of a couple of thousand dollars walking out the door that way.

3) Amtrak would probably end up encouraging last-minute gambling with this...the bucket system is Byzantine enough as it is, but I don't like there being an incentive to gamble with bookings in the off-season.

The biggest problem I see with the on-board upgrade isn't the work for the conductor (which will likely get streamlined in the next few years as e-tickets go into the mix), but rather the risk of one of the super-LD trains getting oversold in the sleepers if someone upgrades and then someone else buys the room at the last minute. Now, I'll agree that Amtrak should cut the workload on the conductors as much as possible, but this is one of those cases where things do seem to work moderately well.

A thought came to mind: Does anybody know what would likely have happened if the passengers in this story had simply called customer service? I say this knowing all too well how bad reception is between WAS and RVR, but it _does_ come to mind as an option in a situation like this.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 20, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> I don't think the conductors care about the price of the room. They just don't want the extra work. So they resist. If the conductor legitimately has to deal with train orders, meets with freights, collecting tickets, etc the passenger might not understand. Then that is unpleasant too. It's a no win situation for the conductor.


Well put.

Is selling an upgrade on-board, the only task that requires the conductor to collect money? And if so, is the conductor now personally responsible for that money? Maybe the process needs to be changed such that the LSA, who is already responsible for collecting money, "sells" the upgrade?


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## The Davy Crockett (Dec 20, 2011)

One reason to wait until onboard 'The Silvers' to get a room at low bucket is that rooms on The Silvers are not cheap. That said, if you don't book a room, there is always the possibility you'll spend the trip in coach. That is a fact. The reason might be that all rooms have been sold. Or it could be because the conductor won't/can't deal with selling the upgrade. But that is the risk one takes.

Who is right and who is wrong? My experiences tell me that both are probably both, but as I was not there, how the heck should I know? :wacko:


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## Steve4031 (Dec 20, 2011)

> The problem with having fares "dive" on the day of a trip is three-fold:1) Unlike airlines, the Auto Train notwithstanding, none of Amtrak's trains are nonstop. So you've got a variable number of rooms available...to take the Meteor, you might have 4 rooms to RVR, 2 from RVR-CHS, 3 from CHS-JAX, 4 JAX-ORL, and 12 ORL-MIA. What do you "down-price"?
> 
> 2) Amtrak allows re-booking if room prices fall. Wouldn't a last-minute cut in fares risk a lot of money "walking out the door" with canny re-booking? With a train of canny passengers, it would _seem_ that there's the risk of a couple of thousand dollars walking out the door that way.
> 
> ...



These our good points. One work around is if a passenger cancels for any reason within 24 hours, there is some sort of penalty that makes it financially unattractive to cancel and rebook at a lower rate. Or maybe, just drop the fares a few hours before departure from the endpoint city.

Calling customer service from the train is useless. All that accomplishes is somebody taking the complaint and promising to get back to you. I had some serious complaints regarding an experience on the Texas Eagle. I called customer service after the trip. And nothing has happened.


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## VentureForth (Dec 20, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


I don't think there is a fare dive on the date of travel. For instance, if there is a room available from WAS to MIA and I board at NYP, calling Amtrak would result in probably the highest bucket available. It is a matter of _policy_ that makes the room on board at the lowest bucket. That being said, I don't quite know if the room is sold at the lowest bucket and then lowered even further to account for perhaps a higher bucket on the rail fare portion.

All that being said, the policy is fine. The purpose is to increase revenue where up until the moment the train left its origin, there wasn't. The risk to the consumer is no room. The benefit is the lowest rate. The snag is a nasty conductor who doesn't want to do his/her job.


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## AlanB (Dec 20, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the conductors care about the price of the room. They just don't want the extra work. So they resist. If the conductor legitimately has to deal with train orders, meets with freights, collecting tickets, etc the passenger might not understand. Then that is unpleasant too. It's a no win situation for the conductor.
> ...


No, the conductor must also collect money/take a credit card from someone who books at the last minute and boards from an unstaffed station where there is no way to obtain a ticket.

As for having the LSA do it, that would be an option if Amtrak changed the rules. But currently it is the conductor's responsibility to handle all revenue matters regarding passage on the train. Can this rule be changed? Sure! The question is does Amtrak want to change it and does it make sense for Amtrak to change it?

And in partial response to Texas Sunset, having the SCA do it is not an option, since they are not revenue agents for Amtrak. It would require additional training and several rules changes for that to happen. And frankly it simply doesn't make sense either. Why train all the SCA's to do something that an LSA already knows how to do?


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## AlanB (Dec 20, 2011)

Big Iron said:


> Could it be the Conductor did not want to do the upgrade until Richmond due to the possiblity that it was her crew change point and it would be the next Conductor's item to deal with? I know Regional crews change in RVR but don't know about LD crews.


If we assume that the passenger is correctly relaying that bit of info, and I've no reason to doubt them, then yes! It is quite clear that Ms. Rose was intent on dumping the passenger's request onto the next set of conductors so that she didn't have to do the work her job requires her to do.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 20, 2011)

AlanB said:


> And in partial response to Texas Sunset, having the SCA do it is not an option, since they are not revenue agents for Amtrak. It would require additional training and several rules changes for that to happen. And frankly it simply doesn't make sense either. Why train all the SCA's to do something that an LSA already knows how to do?


Just for the record I'm fine with _anything_ that gets empty rooms sold in a quick and friendly manner. ^_^

Right now that does not appear to be the case on the trains I ride the most. -_-


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## dlagrua (Dec 20, 2011)

We regularly hear that Amtrak operates at a deficit but you would think that they would make every effort to sell every open sleeper on every train to increase revenue. Right now its left to the descretion of the conductor and in some cases lazy people in those positions do not wish to do or refuse to do the paperwork. Amtrak needs a new rule that says the train conductor must announce to all coach passengers that any available sleepers are being offered to those wishing to purchase them on a first come first serve basis. I can only guess how much revenue Amtrak loses because of incompetant staff.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 20, 2011)

The lazy conductors will simply not do it. They will find any number if ways to explain why it wasn't done.

Now if they have portable credit card/ ticketing machines that can print the ticke and take credit card payment, maybe that will work. But these machines have to also interface instantly with the reservation database. What happens when the wifi on the train fails, or there is no cell reception? We are back to square one with excuses for lazy conductors.

I'm not saying all conductors are lazy. Many will probably do their job. I'm just stating that technology won't magically solve all of the problems.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 20, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> The lazy conductors will simply not do it. They will find any number if ways to explain why it wasn't done.
> 
> Now if they have portable credit card/ ticketing machines that can print the ticke and take credit card payment, maybe that will work. But these machines have to also interface instantly with the reservation database. What happens when the wifi on the train fails, or there is no cell reception? We are back to square one with excuses for lazy conductors.
> 
> I'm not saying all conductors are lazy. Many will probably do their job. I'm just stating that technology won't magically solve all of the problems.


With e-Ticketing being rolled out over the next year, as well as those portable ticket lifters/Point Of Sale machines being distributed (the Amtrak California trains have been beta testing the machines for the past year, so there is a test-bed already in place for Amtrak to study implementation system-wide) there is real chance that this will be possible in the very near future. No, there are no guarantees that problems will not occur where the old system of paperwork would need to be substituted, but if the company can work it so that 80 to 90 percent of the business from POS transactions are processed immediately and the rest are processed automatically when system connectivity is re-established then we are on the road to resolving this issue.

There is also plenty of merit in allowing the LSA to process the transaction for on-board upgrades. But for the time being, IMHO, I think the best plan is to reserve early, use aids such as AmSnag, and grab your accommodations before getting on-board to avoid the gamble all together!


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## PaulM (Dec 20, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> While the "customer is always right", there are certainly many businesses that ban certain people from their stores, simply because they are high-maintenance.


What's high maintenance about trying to purchase a product that is for sale?


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## Steve4031 (Dec 20, 2011)

I don't think you can be kicked out for being high maintenance. I got asked to stay out of a restaurant for acting an idiot and cursing somebody out. And I probably should have been kicked out. There are other establishments that are not customer service oriented. If the employees are consistently snappy, and have a take or leave it attitude, then more customers would snap back, and some curse, and then be asked to leave. In my case it would have been better to stop going, and find a better restaurant. You cant change ignorance.


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## jdcnosse (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.

I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol

But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2011)

jdcnosse said:


> I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.
> 
> I know during arguments I've actually trained myself to try and refrain from any sort of name calling or use of profanity, thereby making me at least look like the better person. lol
> 
> But I also agree the policy needs to be changed about on-board upgrades. I'm partial to the "black/white" way. Either every conductor has to do an on-board upgrade if asked, or no conductor has to. Easier to figure out then who's at fault for not doing their job.


I'd be willing to take a "mixed" policy of some kind (i.e. "Upgrades must be offered and requests honored under the following conditions but not under these other conditions", for example requiring them to be granted in the event of a major delay), but it definitely needs to be more definitive. I even recall hearing a call to the effect of "Anybody who wants to upgrade for the night, see the conductor" on (I _believe_) the Zephyr. IIRC, this may have been in a delay-heavy winter (I'm thinking Winter, 2008), and an ambitious conductor got it in their mind to fill a bunch of unexpectedly emptied sleeping accommodations east of Denver.

When I ran into another forum member last winter, he said he'd been able to frequently get upgrades on the western trains, and the only time I asked for an upgrade was on the SWC when it was _far_ behind schedule. So I'm going to take a wild stab and say that I think the Western conductors are more open to this than the Eastern conductors are...but I think that may be due to the large number of long delays those trains have seen over the years resulting in no-shows (people "walking away" from a train that is twelve hours late), misconnects, people getting put on a night leg unexpectedly (i.e. my SWC story), and so forth.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

The passenger's side of the story is so plausible that I can easily believe it. I have personally experienced a lot of rude Amtrak employees and by now just expect at least one rude employee working on the train. I always hope for it to be the snack car attendant since they have the least effect on my trip. It is sad that I have to think that way. I kind of have the feeling that a lot of it is reverse racism for me at least, but who knows.

The bad thing is these are probably the kind of passengers that Amtrak could do well from an image point of view. They don't sound like train nuts, or scared to fly or any other group that has no other choice. These people deliberately made an informed choice and got screwed from it. Amtrak needs more non-niche passengers like this to strengthen their legitimacy, but that will never happen with rude employees. Now these people are going to swing to the other side and support killing it.


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## VentureForth (Dec 21, 2011)

Remember that conductors generally work very roughly 8 hour shifts - or perhaps more accurately, between city pairs roughly 8 hours apart.

The point is, of you don't like the conductor, and you are traveling far enough to justify it, just wait until the next conductor if you are denied.

And Texas Sunset, I know you can't seem to catch a break on your routes. It's hard. I took Amtrak from Dallas to Savannah last Summer on a rewards trip and the only leg I couldn't get sleeper on was the Texas Eagle. What can I say? The Texas trains are way popular. Though I will say the best on board upgrade I ever had was from St Louis to Mineola. $36. 

That was, however, back in 2000...


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## jis (Dec 21, 2011)

Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.

As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 21, 2011)

jis said:


> As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.


I agree that something needs to be done with the on-board upgrades, but the Cafe car is a different issue. Union works rules, pay, benefits, tips, and now were give them 1% of the gross (or some number) too?


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2011)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.
> ...


For upgrades, I might agree, but conductors on segments that are regularly sold out would probably (rightfully, IMHO) raise hell. There are routes where there's regularly going to be spare capacity in the sleepers, and then you get those routes/segments where there will be no such capacity to speak of. To offer an example, the Zephyr east of Denver is far more crowded than west of Denver (since CHI-DEN is basically an overnight run), so conductors further west would have rooms to sell while those in the east wouldn't.

I disagree with this on the cafe car. However, I _very_ strongly support doing this for the diner, since I've been on a few trains where the announcement for dinner reservations more or less didn't carry into all of the coaches and the LSA didn't hit all of them when taking reservations. If anything, there should be a firm incentive to fill every table possible, to keep all of the tables available for passenger use that can be, etc.


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## Big Iron (Dec 21, 2011)

Anderson said:


> jdcnosse said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.
> ...


I can't say for sure if it is an East Coast bias against selling upgrades enroute. A thought in this case is that the Southbound Silvers typically have heavy boardings in DC and then a short distance before the stop in ALX. Also, there is a new operating crew that comes on in DC so upon departure all passenger tickets need to be checked making the Conductor very, very busy. To approach a conductor shortly upon departure from DC would not be the best time to ask. The appropriate response would have been for the conductor to say see me in the lounge 5 minutes past Fredericksburg and I will check for you then. That gives the passenger a concrete time to address the issue and some sort of consensus on next steps.


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## jdcnosse (Dec 21, 2011)

Anderson said:


> jdcnosse said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with many points I've read in this thread. I can't really remember all of them or who said them, but depending on what exactly was said during this passenger's outburst could have caused the boot. Or the conductor could have been on a power trip and is at fault.
> ...


That could work too. But either way it would still be a you have to/don't offer at all type of scenario, where it isn't exactly up to the conductor to decide.


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## tp49 (Dec 22, 2011)

jis said:


> Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.
> 
> As for selling upgrades or even food on trains, the easiest way to insentivize such is to make the selling agent a partner in the additional income. Give them 1% (or some other suitable agreed upon amount) of the amount they collect in sales. This will help sell bedrooms which are otherwise going empty. It will also help the lazy Cafe car attendants open their shop a little earlier and close them a little later to make a little more money for themselves.


That could be a very thorny issue though because it could be considered a gift of public funds.


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## jis (Dec 22, 2011)

tp49 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, I would like to hear the Conductor's side of the story before jumping to a conclusion. There are always at least two sides to any story of confrontation.
> ...


Why is it a gift. It is payment for a service provided, no? Or must all pay be completely disconnected from any quality of service or quantity of service provided issues?


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 22, 2011)

I am in the process of typing my Trip Report(NOVELETTE) for my 12/11 LAX-CHI-BAL on the SWC/CARDINAL but wanted to chime in on upgrades. I hit the POWERBALL of Conductors or was lucky, don't know which. At home I made a 4"/4" card for

each of my (4) segments (LAX-CHI, CHI-BAL, BAL-CHI and CHI_LAX) with my name, cell #, sleeper number and roomette number. Tracked BR rates up till night of departure. Boarded SWC, told SCA I was interested in upgrade to BR, called

Reservations immediately after being seated and got a list of empty bedrooms by room #/car. Put that info on my segment card. Unbeknown to me SCA told conductor about my desires. When he approached my roomette, I had tickets ready for him,

he punched them and said he understood I desired to upgrade to BR.

Here is the numbers for the SWC segment:

$354 Rail charge (LAX-CHI-BAL)

$313 roomette charge (LAX-CHI)

$613 bedroom (LAX-CHI)

Told Steve I would meet him somewhere in the middle and to proceed at "his convenience"

Fifteen minutes later he came back and asked me if $50 was fair from LAX-CHI. I almost wet my pants. Gave him my credit card and again told him to proceed at "his convenience". He came back in 10 minutes and told me to move to bedroom C in

the same car and "HE" would notify SCA about room move. I said to myself this is going too smoothly. He said something about booking it out of Fullerton, CA. I can only "assume" it may having something to do with Fullerton being the last checked

baggage station until we got to Flagstaff, AZ. And the $50, I can only "assume" the cost of my ticket $354 + $313 = $667 exceeded the cost ($613) of a BR and I got it for the $50 minimum. As I am new (last trip 1993) to AMTRAK LD, I am only guessing

how it works.

NAVYBLUE


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## Big Iron (Dec 22, 2011)

jis said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...



Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).


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## Monon81 (Dec 22, 2011)

JoanieB said:


> All I can say is that I've spent my life dealing with the public and it's not a bed of roses.
> 
> There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.


The discussion on on-board upgrades is fascinating. Evidently there are some knowledgeable travelers in this forum who know how to game the system. Nothing wrong with that. But I suspect that such gamesmanship combined with a sense of entitlement or, dare I say, arrogance can lead to some trouble.

Some close reading and comparison between the getpayback.com posting and the Sun Sentinel got my BS detectors activated. Both the story and the posting were written a month after the incident. The newspaper story was published in a Florida paper, not in Virginia, where the incident happened. The newspaper writer is a "Consumer columnist," as opposed to a reporter. The unusual term "cabin," which I associate with ships rather than trains, was used in both.

I would guess that the aggrieved passenger stewed about the incident for a week or so, contacted an attorney of the ambulance-chaser type, and, at his direction (this specialty of law is soaked with testosterone), started a publicity campaign. She wrote her lengthy story for getpayback.com and contacted the columnist from her local fish wrapper. Columnist takes down her story, makes a couple of quick phone calls to Amtrak Media Relations and Ashland Police Media Relations and gets some perfunctory responses from both. Its way too long ago to find any other witnesses, so he writes his story.

Other BS detector activators:

Newspaper story mentions her son traveling with her. In the posting, it's her mother.
Her "brief summery" [sic] was 2480 words long! That's four pages of spiteful writing, boldfacing
*the conductor's full name*
at every opportunity.
The aggrieved passenger admits that she suffers from anxiety disorder, and her writing bears that out. Police officers are pretty well trained to calm down agitated people; its a skill beyond what's expected of ordinary customer-service people. She compliments the officers; my guess is that they were able to talk her down after she was kicked off the train.

I hope she gets the help she needs, and from someone other than a lawyer.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 22, 2011)

Big Iron said:


> Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).


This would be a great model _*except*_ the amount of available inventory can vary and is often never known until the train is underway; so setting quotas would be difficult, especially on routes that are usually sold out.


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## MiRider (Dec 22, 2011)

Wow... after reading the *report* on getpayback.com and taking the points that Monon81 brings up into consideration, I've come to the conclusion that this story is just that... a story.

A story told by someone with a bigger problem than an *anxiety disorder*.

I love this part: _We found the Ashland police to be among the best we have encountered _I don't know about you but...I'm happy to say that I haven't encountered enough police officers in my lifetime to make comparisons.


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## amamba (Dec 22, 2011)

My thought regarding the discrepancy between the newspaper and the website first hand account is that it is the same two people traveling but from two different perspectives. The main character in the newspaper story is a woman traveling with her grown son. It was the grown son who then posted on the website and said he was traveling with his mother.

Makes perfect sense.


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## MiRider (Dec 22, 2011)

I don't see that at all but what I do see is two creepy sounding weirdos that, if they were anything like they sound in their *account*, deserved to be removed from the train.

Tell me, exactly, how you or anyone else is going to force any conductor to upgrade you to a room?

If you ask and aren't taken care of, take the hint.

You have your seat, go sit in it or pay for a room when you make your reservation.

I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.

Also, if it was the *son* posting on getpayback.com then why is the byline on that report 'Josephine Savir'?



amamba said:


> My thought regarding the discrepancy between the newspaper and the website first hand account is that it is the same two people traveling but from two different perspectives. The main character in the newspaper story is a woman traveling with her grown son. It was the grown son who then posted on the website and said he was traveling with his mother.
> 
> Makes perfect sense.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 23, 2011)

JoanieB said:


> If you ask and aren't taken care of, take the hint.
> 
> I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.


I've been called an "Amtrak Apologetic" before but c'mon. This is not "playing the system." And let me tell you, anyone experienced with Amtrak knows that Conductors like this exist.

I mean if it was me, i would have just waited for the next crew change, but it's clear that other OBS was happy to be friendly to them.


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## MiRider (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm not making excuses for Amtrak or the conductor - we still only know the story as told by the melodramatic passenger.

My experiences with conductors have been limited to having my ticket lifted and listening to their announcements.

Some of them seemed unfriendly but it never affected my experience because I've never felt the need to argue with any of them.

If I were to ask for a service and be told no, that would be the end of it on the train - there would be no argument.

Any problems I would have would be addressed with customer service and a post on Amtrak's Facebook page.

No matter how nasty a conductor is, I still think that you would have to be pretty damn out of control to be thrown off of a train.



TVRM610 said:


> 1324616534[/url]' post='336301']
> 
> 
> JoanieB said:
> ...


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## Big Iron (Dec 23, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding extra income for conductors selling upgrades, one method that would create an incentive to sell upgrades is a revenue model salespeople work under. In my world we are expected to generate a certain amount of revenue for the company, for that we get a paycheck and keep our job. Once we exceed that level then a portion of the extra revenue is given back to sales rep. Perhaps conductors could be given a revenue figure for generating upgrade revenues and then be incentivized above that. To create consistent behavior work contracts would need to be changed (how likley is that?) so that all conductors must generate X amount of revenue to keep thier jobs and enjoy x percentage of the extra revenue as commission. The same model could work for cafe/lounge attendants and the LSA in the diners. This is just a grand theory for Amtrak but it does create consistent behaviors in my world (sell or die).
> ...


If a change is desired it has to start somewhere. My sales territory is smaller and has lower per capita income that other regions yet I'm expected to produce like my peers. Lots of reasons can be stated as to why one can't reach a goal but if properly motivated to meet it wonders in revenue production can happed. It takes good leadership and hands on management but it can be done.


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## PaulM (Dec 23, 2011)

Monon81 said:


> JoanieB said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people out there who have a sense of entitlement and possess a superiority complex, especially when it comes to dealing with those in the service industry.
> ...


I'll repeat my earlier statement that the the "E" word is not applicable here. I'll add that this isn't gamesmanship, other than that there is a risk that all rooms will be sold. It's a long standing way Amtrak, and pre-Amtrak RR's for than matter, obtains more revenue. Also, not everyone learns about it from this forum. I observed my father doing it over 50 years ago. Finally, the arrogant ones are those who don't follow company rules.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 24, 2011)

Monon81 said:


> Evidently there are some knowledgeable travelers in this forum who know how to game the system. I suspect that such gamesmanship combined with a sense of entitlement or, dare I say, arrogance can lead to some trouble.


I don't think "game the system" means what you apparently think it means.



JoanieB said:


> &I know I'm not a super experienced train person but I also don't go out of my way to play the system and never will.


Can you please explain how following the rules _to the letter_ is "playing the system?"


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## VentureForth (Dec 24, 2011)

Actually, I believe that gaming the system means one takes any available loophole, without breaking any rules. It can appear be breaking rules because most casual observers are simply not aware of the rules.

Do I want to tell everyone I'm sitting by that I want an upgrade and how I'm going to get it? Not on the chance they thing it's a great idea and they beat me to it.

In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.

The nice thing about a law suit is that perhaps they can show that there were, indeed, rooms available. Then the conductor will have to explain she didn't follow policy to the point of irritating a customer and pushing them to a point of cause for removal.

Or, there were really no rooms until Richmond and the passengers were unreasonable.


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## Big Iron (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't see how onboard upgrades are gaming the system. I, as have other posters here, have heard announcements from onboard crew that upgrades were available and to see the conductor for details. My recollection was this was more common when there was the Chief of onboard services, or whatever that postion was called that has since been eliminated.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 24, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.


Exactly. If you believe that a by-the-book on board upgrade is "gaming" the system then I suppose the whole Amtrak Guest Rewards program could be considered one big financial scam. Apparently some folks can't separate their suspicions of and disdain toward a single unique incident from the program itself as a whole.


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## Anderson (Dec 25, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > In this case, though, we're not talking loopholes, or the failure of the rules to address a particular scenario. We are discussing the enforcement of a clearly defined operating rule and the [apparent] lack of desire for an employee to follow it.
> ...


I suppose I'll pull out one of my grandfather's favorite sayings: First you find out how the system works, then you find out how to work the system. On-board upgrades are nothing more and nothing less than this...and I've never seen any fault in "working the system" insofar as using the rules, as set out, to one's maximum advantage.

There's a difference between that, abusing the system as set up (as I believe that some of the more egregious "loophole" trips could have been considered, though I consider those to be a product of clumsy scheduling rules and so forth...basically, getting some combination of loopholes to combine in a way that just gets truly insane), and outright cheating. The first is perfectly acceptable, the second is a morally arguable gray area, and the third is obviously a problem.


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## chandj (Dec 27, 2011)

Attempting to upgrade to a sleeper on board is not gaming or loop holing or any other such nonsense. It is just riskier than just buying what you really want when you book. Also, just because someone with a bad experience (and I DO consider getting put off the train involuntarily a bad experience). complains doesn't make that person mentally ill. I love traveling Amtrak, but I have had my share of crappy service. I just find it is safer to shut my pie hole and wait until I can contact customer service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 27, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I believe that some of the more egregious "loophole" trips could have been considered [abusing the system]...


Yeah, loophole trips were exactly what they sounded like; obvious attempts to game the system into providing unintended results. No shock that they were eventually removed over time. On board sleeper upgrades come with clear rules and a reasonable risk/reward ratio. Those who are inclined to disagree with the terms are still free to avoid participating.



chandj said:


> Attempting to upgrade to a sleeper on board is not gaming or loop holing or any other such nonsense. It is just riskier than just buying what you really want when you book. Also, just because someone with a bad experience (and I DO consider getting put off the train involuntarily a bad experience). complains doesn't make that person mentally ill. I love traveling Amtrak, but I have had my share of crappy service. I just find it is safer to shut my pie hole and wait until I can contact customer service.


Quoted for truth. ^_^


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