# Empire Builder flood disruptions



## anir dendroica (Apr 8, 2011)

I see all #7/#8 trains are in "service disruption" status once again after a few weeks of trouble-free operations. Per a reliable source on the Empire Builder Yahoo group, high water between Rugby and Minot will force a re-route between Fargo and Minot on the Surrey cutoff. Depending on what happens with Devils Lake, this could be permanent - time will tell if Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks saw their last Amtrak train this morning.

#7(7) left Rugby this morning but never reported into Minot, so I'm wondering if that train got stuck on the wrong side of the high water...

Mark


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## EB_OBS (Apr 8, 2011)

#7(07) is on its way back to Fargo, ND to take the KO sub to Minot. Currently estimated into Minot, ND about 17 or 18 hours late.


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## jmbgeg (Apr 8, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> I see all #7/#8 trains are in "service disruption" status once again after a few weeks of trouble-free operations. Rumor (i.e. the Empire Builder Yahoo group) has it that high water between Rugby and Minot will force a re-route between Fargo and Minot on the Surrey cutoff. Depending on what happens with Devils Lake, this could be permanent - time will tell if Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks saw their last Amtrak train this morning.
> 
> #7(7) left Rugby this morning but never reported into Minot, so I'm wondering if that train got stuck on the wrong side of the high water...
> 
> Mark


Where do you get permanent out of this???


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2011)

If the water never recedes, it'll be permanent.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 8, 2011)

This water will recede, since it's the Mouse River. If Devil's Lake rises enough this spring, though, the line between Minot and Grand Forks might never be reopened because the tracks will be flooded near Church's Ferry, which is east of Rugby. Same spring thaw, same railroad line, but two different watersheds.

I'm probably the only person who would have liked to have been on this #7, probably the longest Amtrak trip through North Dakota ever. No accounting for taste, since most people seem to want to cross the Great Plains as fast as possible.


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## Tumbleweed (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm rooting for a New Rockford stop as we have relatives there and it would be a perfect launching station.


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## bretton88 (Apr 8, 2011)

New Rockford has supposedly set up a station for Amtrak, just waiting for the inevitable.


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## Eric S (Apr 8, 2011)

bretton88 said:


> New Rockford has supposedly set up a station for Amtrak, just waiting for the inevitable.


New Rockford *has actually* constructed a station? Or, as has been reported in the past, New Rockford has been mentioned as a possible/likely stop if/when the _Empire Builder_ is permanently re-routed?


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## Ispolkom (Apr 8, 2011)

Eric S said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > New Rockford has supposedly set up a station for Amtrak, just waiting for the inevitable.
> ...


I imagine that they're planning to rehab the station in the background of this photo. I've not been in New Rockford in many a year, but I dimly remember it still standing.

Edit: According to this Web site "New Rockford: The passenger railroad station originally built by the GN here remains."


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## Tumbleweed (Apr 9, 2011)

I believe the old GN depot in New Rockford is still standing, but has been moved to their Steam

Threshers park as part of a pioneer building display.....


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## jmbgeg (Apr 9, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> I see all #7/#8 trains are in "service disruption" status once again after a few weeks of trouble-free operations. Per a reliable source on the Empire Builder Yahoo group, high water between Rugby and Minot will force a re-route between Fargo and Minot on the Surrey cutoff. Depending on what happens with Devils Lake, this could be permanent - time will tell if Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks saw their last Amtrak train this morning.
> 
> #7(7) left Rugby this morning but never reported into Minot, so I'm wondering if that train got stuck on the wrong side of the high water...
> 
> Mark


Here is an article: http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/6866/


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## Ispolkom (Apr 9, 2011)

You are right, I was wrong to rely on my increasingly foggy memory. According to the New Rockford paper, they plan to build a new station if the Empire Builder is rerouted.


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## TraneMan (Apr 9, 2011)

It's not sounding pretty right now on that train.. A guy posted on FB and he's pretty upset.


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## busboy (Apr 9, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> It's not sounding pretty right now on that train.. A guy posted on FB and he's pretty upset.


What is "FB"???


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## TraneMan (Apr 9, 2011)

busboy said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > It's not sounding pretty right now on that train.. A guy posted on FB and he's pretty upset.
> ...


Amtrak's Facebook Page.


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## Trainmans daughter (Apr 9, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> It's not sounding pretty right now on that train.. A guy posted on FB and he's pretty upset.


I just read all the posts. Poor Claude is having a rough time. Complaining that the conductor wouldn't let him off the train when it stopped 3 miles short of Minot, no free food, why didn't Amtrak plan ahead for the flooding, blah, blah, blah. I feel soory for him, but Amtrak didn't cause the flooding. They are just trying to get him safely to his destination. Also, he doesn't seem to understand that the freight company owns the track and pretty much tells Amtrak when and where to stop or detour.

I'd love to be on that train for the extra train-time and the adventure. But I'd hate to be sitting next to Claude!


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## TraneMan (Apr 9, 2011)

Trainmans daughter said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > It's not sounding pretty right now on that train.. A guy posted on FB and he's pretty upset.
> ...


Yeah, I wouldn't mind the extra time... and wouldn't want to be next to him.


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## BWE (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm currently on the 7-8 train, and there is some interesting radio traffic. Apparently, there will soon be an issue with the Amtrak engineers hours. However, there is a BNSF engineer aboard (picked up during a BNSF crew swap, I believe), with enough hours remaining to allow him to get the train further along, to a better stop....rather than stopping the Amtrak cold, and trucking out a new Amtrak engineer. The dispatcher and conductors are going through the rule books, and apparently a BNSF engineer can operate the Amtrak engine/equipment under the direct supervision of an Amtrak engineer.

Their question is - does that supervising Amtrak engineer also need to be within their hour limit? The rule book apparently doesn't spell that contingency out, so they are asking for a "higher up" ruling.

From the tone of the conversation, it appears that the BNSF dispatcher and Amtrak really want to work out a solution to the delays, and not hold up the Amtrak any longer than necessary.

Just an observation.

Brad.


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## amamba (Apr 9, 2011)

Interesting, I don't think Claude is being unreasonable in his posts on the amtrak FB page. What is the standard protocol in terms of providing food for coach pax with very long delays? I can sort of see his point in that what was supposed to be a 9 hour train ride has now turned into a 32 hour ordeal. What if he didn't bring any food or money because he thought he could go nine hours without eating? It is also very frustrating when the train stops just short of a station so that trapped pax could choose to disembark early if they wanted.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 9, 2011)

Cross-posted from the Empire Builder Yahoo group:



> Update:
> Train 7-7 that was stopped by high water near Norwich, and ran all the way back
> 
> to Grand Forks and Fargo this morning is by Selz, ND, 62 miles east of Minot, at
> ...


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## Steve4031 (Apr 9, 2011)

Today 4/9/11 I'm on 7 which us operating as a stub train to msp. 4 sl coaches and a sightseer and 2 engines. I'm traveling Chicago to Columbus.


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## sttsxm (Apr 9, 2011)

amamba said:


> Interesting, I don't think Claude is being unreasonable in his posts on the amtrak FB page. What is the standard protocol in terms of providing food for coach pax with very long delays? I can sort of see his point in that what was supposed to be a 9 hour train ride has now turned into a 32 hour ordeal. What if he didn't bring any food or money because he thought he could go nine hours without eating? It is also very frustrating when the train stops just short of a station so that trapped pax could choose to disembark early if they wanted.


I was told by a crew member that over 4 hours late (IRC) you get free emergency snacks and after 6 hours they break out the free dinty moore beef stew but my brain is a little furry today!

i was bussed twice on the EB in the past few months.....between Whitefish and Havre and Havre and Minot......we got a free sandwich after 10 hours (5 hours on the bs from Whitefish, hen 5 hours in the Havre station...YIKES) but otherwise, it would have been 10 hours without easy access to food. (ye there is food in Havre but that day was very messy, and not many people wanted to walk...)

IMO, at that time, the EB was having service disruptions so often that Amtrak should have been better able to deal with things like food for the passengers. Yes weather and freight trains are not under their control, but the reaction TO the situation is fully under their control. However, we got to where we were going and I did call and got a very nice travel voucher ......my issue was more about the actual lack of organization and the poor attitude of the sleeper attendant....


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## anir dendroica (Apr 11, 2011)

No news in the past couple of days. One report that there is a sign at the St. Paul (MN) station stating no service west of St. Paul until further notice. Anyone have better information?


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## WICT106 (Apr 11, 2011)

Also, is there any truth to the rumor being reported over at TrainOrders.com that Amtrak has agreed to a permanent re-routing of the Builder via the Surrey Cutoff ?


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## Ryan (Apr 11, 2011)

I've heard the same rumor elsewhere, but nothing to substantiate it yet.


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## hello (Apr 11, 2011)

_I had to call Amtrak last night with a question about our upcoming trip ... I asked about the EB ... the agent said that they hope to have the EB running again April 14 ... not sure if that was the "official" Amtrak response, or his own thoughts._


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## anir dendroica (Apr 11, 2011)

Annulled through Wednesday substantiated on the EB Yahoo Group. The BNSF northern transcon is still open (and indeed only shut down for about half a day due to flooding), so my interpretation is either Amtrak is just being cautious or they are taking a few days to roll out a permanent switch to the New Rockford line. See this discussion on TrainOrders:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2440641

Freeway flooding near Grand Forks:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/199793/

The Red River is falling at Fargo after cresting two feet lower than 2009. Still predicted to rise five feet in Grand Forks, to within 2 feet of 1997 (and higher than 2009 there).

Mark


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 12, 2011)

amamba said:


> Interesting, I don't think Claude is being unreasonable in his posts on the amtrak FB page. What is the standard protocol in terms of providing food for coach pax with very long delays? I can sort of see his point in that what was supposed to be a 9 hour train ride has now turned into a 32 hour ordeal. What if he didn't bring any food or money because he thought he could go nine hours without eating? It is also very frustrating when the train stops just short of a station so that trapped pax could choose to disembark early if they wanted.


While I can see him being upset since it when from 9 hours to 32 hours that they should provide free emergency food like the rule state However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".


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## Ispolkom (Apr 12, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".


As I'm from the area, that's what I'd want to do if I were in coach. Heck, back up to Granville if you want (I imagine that they wyed the train there), I'll get off there and call a friend for a ride. It's not as if there was a blizzard happening, like when that Michigan train got stuck several winters ago.

If I were in a sleeper, of course, I'd just as soon enjoy the trip, no matter how long it took.


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## Gratt (Apr 12, 2011)

WICT106 said:


> Also, is there any truth to the rumor being reported over at TrainOrders.com that Amtrak has agreed to a permanent re-routing of the Builder via the Surrey Cutoff ?



That is kind of sad, you don't want to lose the third largest city in a state. Is there a way to keep Grand Forks and still avoid Devils lake? :unsure:

I know there are tracks North of devils lake, who owns them and what are the chances of switching to those instead?


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## Ryan (Apr 12, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
> ...


Amtrak should have their lawyers draw up some kind of "Trip Termination Waiver of Liability" or something. Basically says that by getting off the train you agree to not hold Amtrak liable for anything that happens to you starting the second your foot hits the ground, and (maybe) you waive any any claim to a refund or voucher of any type (perhaps refund your fare from the next station to your final destination or something). Keep a couple on the train, and if people want to set out on their own, Amtrak can wash their hands of you and send you on your way.


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## Pladdy (Apr 12, 2011)

When will 7 and 8 run again?


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## WICT106 (Apr 12, 2011)

Gratt said:


> WICT106 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, is there any truth to the rumor being reported over at TrainOrders.com that Amtrak has agreed to a permanent re-routing of the Builder via the Surrey Cutoff ?
> ...



According to my maps, the Soo line owns those tracks. The detour would start in Rugby, and then go to just east of Dewar, and then to Conway. It would be a detour on the order of over 100 miles or so. One might as well take the Surrey Cutoff. Service to GFK can be restored when service is extended to Winnipeg.


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## mwmnp (Apr 12, 2011)

WICT106 said:


> According to my maps, the Soo line owns those tracks. The detour would start in Rugby, and then go to just east of Dewar, and then to Conway. It would be a detour on the order of over 100 miles or so. One might as well take the Surrey Cutoff. Service to GFK can be restored when service is extended to Winnipeg.


The Soo Line owns the tracks in question but leases them to the Northern Plains Railroad to operate. But there's no way you could run Amtrak on them. Not only are they only good for 10-25 mph, 60 miles have been abandoned between Bisbee and Kramer, making what was theoretically once a through-route two dead end branches.

Back to the Devils Lake line, there are now rumors floating around that the concessions BNSF will want from Amtrak to make the reroute on the Surrey Cutoff permanent could make fixing the problem on the traditional route more practicable. We might have a situation brewing like in the south, with UP demanding some pretty big things from Amtrak in order to make the Sunset Limited a daily train.


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## Mackensen (Apr 12, 2011)

According to trainorders there's another break in the line at Harwood, between Fargo and Grand Forks.


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## mwmnp (Apr 12, 2011)

Mackensen said:


> According to trainorders there's another break in the line at Harwood, between Fargo and Grand Forks.


That's common when flooding is as bad as it is this year. The last train on those tracks before they were cut was the #7 that got stranded before reaching Minot and had to turn back toward Fargo.

Grand Forks is now completely without rail service, due to all lines coming into the city either cut in order to put up a dike or underwater.

Edit: here's a view from Sunday of the flooding along Interstate 29 in the Harwood area. The road has since been shut down after being completely submerged. The railroad tracks are located on the right of the road, next to the pole line.







The full gallery of images from this date is available here.


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## cav1865 (Apr 12, 2011)

BNSF today reports all rail traffic in and around Grand Forks delayed by 30 hours minimum. Source: domino.bnsf.com


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## Gingee (Apr 12, 2011)

I hope everything is well about six weeks from now. Due to take the Empire to Chicago.


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## jmbgeg (Apr 12, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> I see all #7/#8 trains are in "service disruption" status once again after a few weeks of trouble-free operations. Per a reliable source on the Empire Builder Yahoo group, high water between Rugby and Minot will force a re-route between Fargo and Minot on the Surrey cutoff. Depending on what happens with Devils Lake, this could be permanent - time will tell if Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks saw their last Amtrak train this morning.
> 
> #7(7) left Rugby this morning but never reported into Minot, so I'm wondering if that train got stuck on the wrong side of the high water...
> 
> Mark


How many days has it been since a regular transit of trains 7 and 8? You would think in that time frame a wide swath detour could have been negotiated with the freight lines.


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## Cristobal (Apr 12, 2011)

Gingee said:


> I hope everything is well about six weeks from now. Due to take the Empire to Chicago.


You and me both... 

I'm headed to Chicago the weekend prior to Memorial Day weekend.


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## conquistador74 (Apr 13, 2011)

Question, please...

If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.

Thanks in advance for any input.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 13, 2011)

Service is supposed to resume tomorrow (4/14). Conflicting reports as to whether it will travel via Devils Lake or New Rockford, but at least as of now the Devils Lake routing is still out of service.

(Credit Mark Meyer on the EB Yahoo Group and RollinB on Trainorders)

Mark


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## anir dendroica (Apr 13, 2011)

Once the snowmelt flooding in North Dakota recedes (by the end of April at the latest) there should be no major flood concerns with the exception of Devils Lake (which can be circumvented by the re-route).

Mark



conquistador74 said:


> Question, please...
> 
> If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 13, 2011)

conquistador74 said:


> Question, please...
> 
> If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.


Since your trip is in the middle of May, I wouldn't worry. By mid-May North Dakota (except for the Devils Lake area) will be dried out, and the Empire Builder will be running either on its usual route or on the Surrey cut-off, if Devils Lake is still rising. I'm on #7 on May 30, and my principal concern is whether the buffaloaf will be on the menu.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch.


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## conquistador74 (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks for the input! I have been on many routes, the Builder included (30+ hours delayed) in the winter of...I believe 95-96....what a story! Never been at this time of year, though.....super important to us to take the route for scenery, etc...so I am hopeful it will all work out! Train from east to west for a cruise to Alaska....some don't get that it is really the train trip that I am most looking forward to!

Dan


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## Ispolkom (Apr 13, 2011)

conquistador74 said:


> Never been at this time of year, though.....super important to us to take the route for scenery, etc...


You're in for a treat. The Great Plains generally look their best between mid-May and mid-June. Plus the days are longer so there's longer to sightsee.


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 13, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
> ...


So the "turn around don't drown" rule is just a myth?


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## GG-1 (Apr 13, 2011)

Aloha

I don't know if last nights news has any bearing on this thread, but it said some dam, north of here (Vegas), was releasing water, to relieve northern flooding, that would raise the level of Lake Mead and Boulder Dam, by 20 feet.


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## cav1865 (Apr 13, 2011)

Several posts talk about the "Surrey Cutoff" by-passing the flooded areas in east-central North Dakota. The name "Surrey Cutoff" comes from the town of Surrey, ND just east of Minot. The rails split at Surrey. From an eastbound perspective, one goes east to Devils Lake and to Grand Forks, the other goes southeast to Fargo. Click on the link to see a North Dakota rail map. The green (BNSF) line turning southeast just east of Minot and going almost straight to Fargo, is the "Surrey Cutoff." The Cutoff is obviously shorter and straighter than going through Devils Lake, Grand Forks, and south to Fargo. I got on Google Earth and followed the cutoff; it makes a beeline to Fargo.

http://www.business.nd.gov/uploads/resources/201/rail.jpg


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## Ispolkom (Apr 13, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> So the "turn around don't drown" rule is just a myth?


Was U.S. Highway 2 flooded that day? I don't think so. There was some water over U.S. 83 north of Minot, but the highway wasn't closed. Was every road connection between Minot and Granville flooded that day? I doubt it. Remember also how flat this part of North Dakota is. You don't get high water velocities in springtime floods. That's one of the problems, the water just sits there.

Just because the rail line is unsafe to use doesn't mean that parallel roads are. As I wrote, I know that area's geography well, having lived there for many years and having driven or bicycled over most of the roads in Ward County. I'm not foolhardy, I just have limits to how long I enjoy sitting in coach. On the other hand, I can well understand any conductor's reluctance to countenance me jumping ship, lest he be held responsible for any misadventure I might suffer. After all, he doesn't know me.


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## mwmnp (Apr 13, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> Several posts talk about the "Surrey Cutoff" by-passing the flooded areas in east-central North Dakota. The name "Surrey Cutoff" comes from the town of Surrey, ND just east of Minot. The rails split at Surrey. From an eastbound perspective, one goes east to Devils Lake and to Grand Forks, the other goes southeast to Fargo. Click on the link to see a North Dakota rail map. The green (BNSF) line turning southeast just east of Minot and going almost straight to Fargo, is the "Surrey Cutoff." The Cutoff is obviously shorter and straighter than going through Devils Lake, Grand Forks, and south to Fargo. I got on Google Earth and followed the cutoff; it makes a beeline to Fargo.
> 
> http://www.business....es/201/rail.jpg


Just to add a little bit of historical perspective, the original transcontinental rail line built by the Great Northern (known as the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba Railway at the time) is the route through Grand Forks and Devils Lake. As time went on, however, there came to be an increased desire to shorten the transcontinental line and provide a more direct routing between Fargo and Minot. Of undoubtedly just as much concern was that, up until the cutoff was built, the Soo Line had the competitive edge in central North Dakota with their main line running through the region. Given the intense rivarly that existed between the Soo Line and the Hill Lines (the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific) during the first part of the twentieth century, allowing the Soo free range over any portion of the state was seen by the Hill Lines as being completely unacceptable. In other places of the state, the Great Northern literally built a competing line next to Soo tracks just to ensure the Soo could not gain any advantage.

Construction of the new main line from Fargo to Minot began in 1910 and ended in 1912. With the railroad essentially the be all and end all of transportation and economic vitality in North Dakota back then, the construction was widely covered by the region's media. The line was soon nicknamed the "Surrey Cutoff," perhaps recognizing how Surrey, which had been founded in 1900, stood to experience an enormous boom simply by being at the junction of two important main lines.

Ultimately, the Surrey Cutoff was the last major railroad construction project undertaken in North Dakota. Additionally, while many new towns were incorporated along the tracks in the hope that some of them would greatly prosper, none of them really did. They were just too late to the game and unable to significantly compete with the older, more established towns along the Soo's line to the south. Even to this day, there is no highway paralleling the Surrey Cutoff and connecting the towns with one another. Being isolated in this way, nearly all of the them, now more or less a century old, sit quiet, slowly becoming ghost towns. The biggest exception is New Rockford, which, having been reached by a Northern Pacific branch line in 1883 and incorporated as a county seat at the same time, was already an established and vibrant town before the Surrey Cutoff came in.

Another thing to note, when trains today take the Surrey Cutoff, they take a slightly different route than the original one envisioned by the Great Northern. This is due mostly to routing changes brought upon by the merger of the Great Northern and Northern Pacific into the Burlington Northern in 1970. Starting at the Amtrak station in Fargo, the distance to the station in Minot by way of today's Surrey Cutoff is 236 miles, compared to the 278 miles listed in the Amtrak timetable by way of Devils Lake. I have highlighted the contemporary Surrey Cutoff with a thick dark green line on the state rail map below. The line proceeding directly northwest out of Fargo is the traditional route of the Surrey Cutoff and, while Amtrak could easily use this line, they probably would not, as there would be nearly 40 miles of non-signaled track, allowing a speed of no more than 59 mph, to contend with. Furthermore, the traditional Surrey Cutoff is only about 4 miles shorter than today's route. That said, if Amtrak were to completely follow today's Surrey Cutoff, there would be about 2.5 miles of 10 mph track on the west side of Fargo to operate over.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks for the history lesson! I've often wondered how that line got there and ended up serving relatively few towns. If I remember correctly from sleepy-eyed stops in Fargo, the Amtrak depot is on the ex-GN while the majority of freights follow the double-track ex-NP. Is there a way to connect back to the ex-NP route west of the depot, or will the re-route require a reverse move for the Fargo stop?

Mark


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## mwmnp (Apr 14, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Thanks for the history lesson! I've often wondered how that line got there and ended up serving relatively few towns. If I remember correctly from sleepy-eyed stops in Fargo, the Amtrak depot is on the ex-GN while the majority of freights follow the double-track ex-NP. Is there a way to connect back to the ex-NP route west of the depot, or will the re-route require a reverse move for the Fargo stop?
> 
> Mark


Yes, there's been a connecting track in place west of the depots in Fargo ever since the days of the GN and NP. After the Burlington Northern merger, a new one was built, farther to the west than the previous one, and can be seen heading from the northern (ex-GN) line to the southern (ex-NP) line on this map at Google. Ever since this new connector was built, the primary user has been coal trains that come from Montana and head north to Grand Forks in order to reach their final destination in northeastern Minnesota. The one problem is that these are the 2.5 miles of 10 mph track I mentioned in my previous post, though perhaps a higher passenger speed limit could be implemented if the Empire Builder began permanently using the tracks.

You're right about the Amtrak depot in Fargo being of GN origin, but, on a minor note, what Amtrak uses was originally the express freight depot. The larger and much more elegant passenger depot sits next door nicely refurbished, but empty, after having housed several failed dining establishments. I have heard talk in the past of potentially moving Amtrak back into this depot, but there are no concrete plans in place to make that a reality. Just a little bit to the south is the former NP depot, still standing and currently a senior center.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Apr 14, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak should have their lawyers draw up some kind of "Trip Termination Waiver of Liability" or something. Basically says that by getting off the train you agree to not hold Amtrak liable for anything that happens to you starting the second your foot hits the ground, and (maybe) you waive any any claim to a refund or voucher of any type (perhaps refund your fare from the next station to your final destination or something). Keep a couple on the train, and if people want to set out on their own, Amtrak can wash their hands of you and send you on your way.


I work in an emergency room and we have a form just like this. Its called AMA, Against Medical Advice. You sign this form and you are free to leave regardless of your condition but by signing you waive any rights you gained by becoming a patient and you release the hospital of all liabilities.

Amtrak could and should make that option available. You may be able to see the station from where you stopped but if you exit and fall, get hit by a train, or get injured in anyway, etc. its your won fault and not Amtrak's once you sign


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## JayPea (Apr 14, 2011)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak should have their lawyers draw up some kind of "Trip Termination Waiver of Liability" or something. Basically says that by getting off the train you agree to not hold Amtrak liable for anything that happens to you starting the second your foot hits the ground, and (maybe) you waive any any claim to a refund or voucher of any type (perhaps refund your fare from the next station to your final destination or something). Keep a couple on the train, and if people want to set out on their own, Amtrak can wash their hands of you and send you on your way.
> ...



The more I look at this idea, the better I like it. I hope to never be in that kind of situation, but if it ever came up, it could (and as stated, should) be a viable option.


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## AlanB (Apr 14, 2011)

First, I fail to see why anyone feels entitled to just get off the train when they want. You wouldn't open the door on an airplane to get off during a hold situation at the airport. You contracted with Amtrak to go from point A to point B. Until you reach point B or Amtrak says "events beyond our control prevent us from getting you to point B" you obey the rules.

Second, a waiver wouldn't work. It's not just Amtrak that you have to be thinking about. Yes, a waiver would release Amtrak from liability. But now you're walking down the ROW, tresspassing on some freight RR's property. If you fall and get hurt, or get hit, that waiver doesn't apply to the freight company. Unless you plan to print up waivers for every freight company too. And of course you'd need the freight Co's to sign off on the idea.

Or someone sees a road across some field. Well now they're tresspassing on some farmer's private property. And again, if the passenger falls and gets hurt, they can sue that farmer.

So NO, I'm sorry, you brought a ticket to go A to B, you remain on the train until such time as either you reach B or the crew makes other safe arrangements for all the passengers to leave the train.

There is only one time that anyone should ever be exiting a train on their own and that would be in the case of a life threatening emergency, like the train is on fire.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 14, 2011)

Looking at that map, it would seem to make the most sense to run the Builder straight northwest through Prosper rather than connect back south to the line through Casselton.

40 miles at 59 mph: 41 minutes

2.5 miles at 10 mph + 41.5 miles at 79 mph: 46 minutes

So even with a 59-mph speed restriction it might work out favorably to follow the Prosper line.

Mark



mwmnp said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the history lesson! I've often wondered how that line got there and ended up serving relatively few towns. If I remember correctly from sleepy-eyed stops in Fargo, the Amtrak depot is on the ex-GN while the majority of freights follow the double-track ex-NP. Is there a way to connect back to the ex-NP route west of the depot, or will the re-route require a reverse move for the Fargo stop?
> ...


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## Ispolkom (Apr 14, 2011)

AlanB said:


> First, I fail to see why anyone feels entitled to just get off the train when they want. You wouldn't open the door on an airplane to get off during a hold situation at the airport. You contracted with Amtrak to go from point A to point B.


My, such a vociferous response, considering that I carefully wrote, "That's what I'd want to do." Not, "That's what I'm entitled to do." Not, "That's what I would do." Not, "That's what I'd demand to be allowed to do." Not, "I'd pull the emergency brake and make a run for it." Expressing a desire, however unreasonable, isn't the same as demanding the item desired. Heck, I want to have steak for dinner, but I don't feel entitled to it (and in fact won't get it).

Actually, I was once on an airplane from San Francisco to Newark that ended up sitting on the tarmac at Dulles in a hold situation, because of weather, I think. After several hours, they brought out a bus and I was (with other passengers, I wasn't the instigator) allowed to flee the fetid airplane. I had a heck of a time catching up to my checked luggage, but felt bad for those people who had to stay on board. As it happened, I was going to DC on that trip anyway, and this way I saved the Amtrak fare from Newark.

I think that you are right, though, that a signed waiver wouldn't remove Amtrak's liability, and that's why any sensible Amtrak conductor wouldn't allow me to leave the train, except at a station.


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## George_B (Apr 14, 2011)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak should have their lawyers draw up some kind of "Trip Termination Waiver of Liability" or something. Basically says that by getting off the train you agree to not hold Amtrak liable for anything that happens to you starting the second your foot hits the ground, and (maybe) you waive any any claim to a refund or voucher of any type (perhaps refund your fare from the next station to your final destination or something). Keep a couple on the train, and if people want to set out on their own, Amtrak can wash their hands of you and send you on your way.
> ...


I think you also need to look at it from a publicity standpoint………Amtrak is not interested in having headlines such as “Four Amtrak passengers killed by oncoming train” or “Man and child drown after leaving stranded Amtrak train”, which is exactly how the headlines are written, regardless if Amtrak had them sign forms waiving liability as the passengers were demanding to leave the train against the Conductor’s advice.

The general public cannot fathom the idea that a train trip could involve death or injury, so why “open the door” (pun intended) to a situation where there could be negative publicity if something happens?

On a weakly-related note, I got into a nice discussion with a crewmember on the Coast Starlight a few years back and mentioned to him that the Parlour Car in our consist was in the Big Bayou Canot wreck in 1993. Even though the employee, who was not a service attendant, started 7 months after it happened, he had no idea what I was talking about. The airlines discuss accidents all of the time in training with their flight crews (at least they used to) as examples of what should and should not be done. It also keeps you mindful of safety. Even though Amtrak wasn’t at fault in Big Bayou Canot, I would think that they would at least discuss it with their crews while in training.


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## BOSMike (Apr 14, 2011)

Any news on EB running today (4/14)?


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## Ispolkom (Apr 14, 2011)

BOSMike said:


> Any news on EB running today (4/14)?


A stub eastbound #8 (a Superliner consist with a Sightseer Lounge and several coaches) left St. Paul for Chicago this morning. Mrs. Ispolkom saw it downtown, so I imagine it originated in St. Paul.


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## cav1865 (Apr 14, 2011)

BOSMike said:


> Any news on EB running today (4/14)?


Westbound EB (train 27) departs Chicago 2:15 CDT; eastbound EB (train 28) departs Portland 4:45 PDT. Fingers crossed they roll today.


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## EB_OBS (Apr 14, 2011)

BOSMike said:


> Any news on EB running today (4/14)?


It's not running today 4(14). Only the stub-train is running Chi-Msp and only buses Sea/Pdx - Spk - Wfh.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 14, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> BOSMike said:
> 
> 
> > Any news on EB running today (4/14)?
> ...


Any idea as to why it's not running? BNSF not keen on running passenger trains on the Surrey line? Amtrak not keen on using the Surrey line lest it become permanent? Performing deferred maintenance on trainsets? In the 2009 flood the EB kept rolling so long as the Surrey cutoff stayed open.

Mark


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## Rick J (Apr 14, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> BOSMike said:
> 
> 
> > Any news on EB running today (4/14)?
> ...


Any news about tomorrow (4/15)? I'm supposed to go from SEA to WFH. That's way too far for a bus ride.


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## robert bergschultz (Apr 14, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> BOSMike said:
> 
> 
> > Any news on EB running today (4/14)?
> ...


they toldmethetrain


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## Trogdor (Apr 14, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Any idea as to why it's not running? BNSF not keen on running passenger trains on the Surrey line? Amtrak not keen on using the Surrey line lest it become permanent? Performing deferred maintenance on trainsets? In the 2009 flood the EB kept rolling so long as the Surrey cutoff stayed open.
> 
> Mark


Because the detour route is also under water.


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## rrdude (Apr 14, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea as to why it's not running? BNSF not keen on running passenger trains on the Surrey line? Amtrak not keen on using the Surrey line lest it become permanent? Performing deferred maintenance on trainsets? In the 2009 flood the EB kept rolling so long as the Surrey cutoff stayed open.
> ...


C'mon, whats a little water between trains?


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## ACVitale (Apr 14, 2011)

Amtrak is waiting for the EB to get its Red Cross Water Certification... Just Kidding.

This has been a very rough year for the EB.

I fear what this is going to do to the bottom line and to customer retention on that run.

Assuming now that Devils Lake area is a lost cause at this point.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 14, 2011)

Not true:

(From BNSF)

BNSF continues to experience some flooding throughout the Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota regions. There are a few carload industries that we may not be able service due to high waters; reroutes will be established as necessary.

The BNSF Intermodal Network remains in service at all points with only minor delays (4-6 hours) on our KO Subdivision at New Rockford, North Dakota account maintenance activities related to ice damming and high water. The KO Subdivision runs between Dilworth, Minnesota to Surrey, North Dakota.



Trogdor said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea as to why it's not running? BNSF not keen on running passenger trains on the Surrey line? Amtrak not keen on using the Surrey line lest it become permanent? Performing deferred maintenance on trainsets? In the 2009 flood the EB kept rolling so long as the Surrey cutoff stayed open.
> ...


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## BOSMike (Apr 14, 2011)

According to the Billings Gazette:

"Amtrak service held up

The floods across the Hi-Line have disrupted Amtrak service.

Passengers hoping to depart from Havre reported canceled trains on Wednesday. The interruption in service was continuing Thursday and Friday. An Amtrak spokesman in Chicago said the Empire Builder train should be running again through Montana on Saturday.

An eastbound train departing Friday from Seattle and a westbound train from Chicago are scheduled to leave on time Friday and will be passing through Montana on Saturday as planned, Amtrak said.

"


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## AlanB (Apr 14, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > First, I fail to see why anyone feels entitled to just get off the train when they want. You wouldn't open the door on an airplane to get off during a hold situation at the airport. You contracted with Amtrak to go from point A to point B.
> ...


That wasn't directed at you; but rather those who do seem to think that they have some legal right to just get off the train if it stops moving. The type that call 911 in situations like this, which only further delays the train.


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## EB_OBS (Apr 14, 2011)

Trains 7/27 and 8/28 are expected to run Friday 4(15).

Is it possible to upload a file? I have a PDF with a lot of pictures of the area.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 14, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Is it possible to upload a file? I have a PDF with a lot of pictures of the area.


I'd love to see it. Until you look at topo maps of North Dakota, you have no idea how many lakes and ponds and potholes there are. It's not accidental that pelicans fly up from Louisiana to No. Dak. to have their chicks, or that North Dakota is the source of most ducks in the Mississippi flyway. Or that there are such problems with spring floods.


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## esmeralda (Apr 15, 2011)

There might be some hope, well temporarily, for Rugby, Grand Forks, and Devils Lake.

http://www.devilslakejournal.com/newsnow/x675838043/In-search-of-100-million-to-fix-Amtrak-s-route


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## cav1865 (Apr 15, 2011)

I live in Montana where the Empire Builder is the only passenger train service. Amtrak in Chicago reports in this morning's newspaper they will try to run the EB this Saturday, 16 April along its entire route. Fingers crossed!


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## amamba (Apr 15, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


But Alan, there are many times that Amtrak does things that are really obtuse, like stop just short of a station when there is a long delay and not let people off. My husband was stuck on an NEC train once, just feet from the PVD station, for many long hours. There was no HEP (I don't know what the deal was), so they sweltered and sat with no operating toilets. The staff all went and hid, and no one was given any updates. It is a combination of being able to see the destination and absolutely no communication from the staff that infuriates pax.

I do liken it to being stuck on a plane sitting on the tarmac. At this point, the federal government has established reasonable amounts of time that the airplanes are allowed to do that. Offhand, I don't know what they are, but my understanding is that after a certain amount of time they have to provide food and/or water or return to the gate, and if not, there are fines.

I understand that there are ROW issues, and obviously it is dangerous to have tons of pax walking along the tracks, but I also feel for the pax in a situation where the conditions on the train are unbearable and the delays have been many hours. I just think sometimes amtrak needs to handle it better, and in the cause of Claude on FB, I think they should have provided free food at some point during a 23 hour delay (if I understood his post correctly, it sounds like he did not receive any complimentary food).


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## anir dendroica (Apr 15, 2011)

Photos of the Amtrak route from BNSF:

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/weather/2011-04-14.pdf

Supposedly both the Hillsboro and Devils Lake subdivisions are back in service today, but I'm guessing there will be extensive slow orders.

Adding insult to injury, much of North Dakota is getting covered by snow today.

Mark


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## EB_OBS (Apr 15, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Photos of the Amtrak route from BNSF:
> 
> http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/weather/2011-04-14.pdf
> 
> ...



Cool, that's some of the PDF I was trying to figure out how to post. The one I have has 41 photos.


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## cav1865 (Apr 15, 2011)

Empire Builder train 27 (westbound) departed Chicago today; departed Glenview, IL on time at 2:39 CDT. Let's hope it's going all the way to Portland / Seattle and not just to MSP.


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## Ryan (Apr 15, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Photos of the Amtrak route from BNSF:
> ...


And here it is for you...

http://stavely.org/ryan/files/2011_ND_Flooding.pdf


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## rick (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm getting concerned. We are ticketed on 27 on May 8th from Chicago to Portland and will connect with The Coast Starlight to LA. We made these reservations last September and chose to ride the long way to LA. I really hope things are better in three weeks. I know Amtrak calls you a couple of days ahead of time if the train won't run,but at that point I would imagine the sleepers on the other Westbound trains..California Zephyr, Southwest chief and the Texas Eagle are sold out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'll even put up with "bustitution" from Pasco to Klamath Falls if the train is running late. I just want it to be running!


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## hello (Apr 15, 2011)

_Our trip on the EB is on May 1 ... and my fingers are still crossed!! _

_ _

_It left SEA on time today ... let's just hope there are no problems through to CHI!_


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## Cristobal (Apr 15, 2011)

Ryan said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > anir dendroica said:
> ...


Looking at those pics makes one wonder why anyone ever decided that it was a good idea to run both a highway and a railway across a 'sea' of water. 

Just kidding, of course, but I had no idea that people living in that area were being subjected to those kind of conditions somewhat frequently. It really does almost looks like a huge, inland sea.


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## ACVitale (Apr 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > anir dendroica said:
> ...



WOW! That is some very clear and extensive photography that shows the real challanges being faced. I can only imagine what those who live in those communities are going thru....


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 16, 2011)

amamba said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


In that case I would get off the train if it means jumping out the emergency window. So i get arrested its better then passing out from the heat with no remorse from the crew.


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## cav1865 (Apr 16, 2011)

Eastbound Empire Builder (train 28) departed Libby, MT this morning only 11 minutes late. Fingers crossed!


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## cav1865 (Apr 16, 2011)

Westbound Empire Builder (train 27) went to Grand Forks this morning (Saturday, 16 April) and did not take the Surrey Cutoff. Train was already 90 minutes late in Grand Forks.


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## TraneMan (Apr 16, 2011)

The status map is not working??


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## michael (Apr 16, 2011)

Train #8 departed Whitefish on time today!


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## Tumbleweed (Apr 16, 2011)

More good news...... hboy:

*By Associated Press* Devils Lake Journal Posted Apr 15, 2011 @ 12:30 PM



> Devils Lake, ND — DEVILS LAKE, N.D. (AP) — Forecasters say they expect a big rise on Devils Lake in the coming weeks.The National Weather Service says coulees draining into the lake will continue flowing despite a recent cold snap. The Grand Forks Herald reports that the agency is expecting a 2-to-3-foot rise in the lake in the next three to six weeks.
> 
> The lake is at a record level and less than 6 feet from the point at which it will overflow naturally into the Sheyenne River.
> 
> Devils Lake has quadrupled in size because of a series of wet years since the early 1990s. Flooding in the region has caused hundreds of millions of dollars in damage.


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## Grandpa D (Apr 16, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> The status map is not working??


From the Status Maps website--



> *SCHEDULED DOWNTIME*Amtrak has scheduled a major upgrade to its reservation system on Sunday, April 17, 2011. During that time, it will be impossible to get train status information. That means that Amtrak Status Maps will be down also at that time.


They may have started early.

:huh:


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## Rick (Apr 16, 2011)

Train 27 was two hours late into Williston ND. Two hours I can handle. Our trip on #27 from Chicago to Portland is three weeks away. Hope the Builder will keep running on a daily basis!


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> In that case I would get off the train if it means jumping out the emergency window. So i get arrested its better then passing out from the heat with no remorse from the crew.


Passed out is better than dead. It's also better than sitting in jail with a broken leg.


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 16, 2011)

@ alanB

passed out from heat exhaustion in the middle of summer because of No HEP and 2 feet from the station I'm getting off the train if it means jumping out the window. 2 feet from the station is BS.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 16, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> @ alanB
> 
> passed out from heat exhaustion in the middle of summer because of No HEP and 2 feet from the station I'm getting off the train if it means jumping out the window. 2 feet from the station is BS.


While I certainly hope you were joking bout the window I still feel compelled to say...

If there is no immediate danger (and the AC turned off is not what I mean by immediate danger, I mean the fire is going to burn you alive, or the water is going to drown you type of danger) never ever attempt to open an emergency window.

If you were to actually remove a window because the car was "too hot" you would almost surely be arrested and charged very large fees. Not only for the damage, but for operating emergency equipment when an emergency did not in fact exist.

While you still shouldn't do it, opening a door in a vestibule is at least not going to damage the car like removing a window. Plus the hop down is alot more manageable. Still doesn't mean its safe or legal, but alot smarter than a window.


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## cav1865 (Apr 19, 2011)

Eastbound Empire Builder (train 8) is making the journey now from Portland/Seattle to Chicago through Grand Forks; hasn't taken the Surrey Cutoff yet. Last 2 days it averages not quite an hour and a half late into Chicago.


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## hello (Apr 19, 2011)

_This is such great news!! My fingers are still crossed!!_


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## bwitt (Apr 19, 2011)

You're not the only one with crossed fingers, I've got tickets for the EB this sat. Apr 23 from CHI-PDX, hopefully it keeps running


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## hello (Apr 20, 2011)

_Good luck bwitt ... we're on the May 1 SEA-CHI._


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## cav1865 (Apr 20, 2011)

I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 20, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.


That might be happening soon. It was once reported that the Devils Lake route would close when the lake reached 1453 feet. By the looks of it the lake will reach that level very soon.

http://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=fgf&gage=dcbn8&view=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1%22

http://www.devilslakejournal.com/breaking/x132152004/Meeting-with-Sen-Conrad-reflects-stress-emotion-fighting-flooding-that-doesnt-end

The Surrey line was closed most of yesterday by a derailment. I wonder if BNSF sent any detour freights on the Devils Lake line. Probably not...

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-industrial/02467D666D28A6BD86257877003DCD5F?Open

Mark


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## anir dendroica (Apr 22, 2011)

Amtrak reportedly issued a checked baggage embargo to Grand Forks today (presumably in anticipation of bypassing the station). Devils Lake is at 1452.95 feet, will pass 1453 tomorrow.

Mark


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## cav1865 (Apr 22, 2011)

EB four hours late into Chicago yesterday. Hope Amtrak at least try the Cutoff soon. We are riding EB to Chicago on 18 May and then change to Capitol Limited same day. We have only a 2 hour 15 minute window to make the change - doesn't look good. Maybe bustitution from MSP?


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## Ispolkom (Apr 22, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.


I wouldn't be surprised if there are still slow orders because of high water on the Surrey cutoff. Changing over to the cutoff might not help on-time performance.


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## henryj (Apr 26, 2011)

Article in Trains mag says it will cost almost 100 million to raise the bridges and track across Devils lake...and the route is only used by Amtrak. That money would be better spent paying the UP to run the Sunset Limited daily and restoring service to Phoenix, a city of 4 million, vs Grand Forks 52k. Could be better spent fixing up the track west of Hutchinson, KS and over Raton Pass for the SWC.

The Builder has been suspended off and on all winter and now the floods hit. Send that equipment down south to beef up the Sunset Limited.


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## Ryan (Apr 26, 2011)

No matter how many times you repeat it, it's still a dumb idea that'll never happen.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 26, 2011)

Article on Devils Lake situation:

http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?pageNum_rsTSnews2=0&totalRows_rsTSnews2=3746&ID=0000003937

Despite abysmal 20.9% OTP in February, the Empire Builder still had the highest ridership of any long-distance train: 31,586. The Sunset Limited had the lowest: 6,598. Multiply that by (7/3) for a daily run, and it is still only half of EB ridership. The trains run where the riders are, and if LD routes are cut the EB will be among the last to go. Winters are hard in the northland. Folks complain, but they still ride the train when the alternatives are just as bad.

Mark


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## Gingee (Apr 26, 2011)

I wonder if those waters will be down in a few weeks? I don't have our times right in front of us but we will be coming into Chicago with the Empire and then transfering to our train that brings us back to Galesburg, Il.


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## Grandpa D (Apr 26, 2011)

Marc Magliari of Amtrak said:


> "We'll operate chartered motor coaches for about a month or so to represent the train to those three cities that will be losing service but in the end, we're not going to be able to sustain chartered motor coaches for a very long time. Again--along about a month--and we will operate without any scheduled stops then between Fargo and Minot."


Sounds like the Surrey cutoff may become permanent.


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## anir dendroica (Apr 26, 2011)

Gingee said:


> I wonder if those waters will be down in a few weeks? I don't have our times right in front of us but we will be coming into Chicago with the Empire and then transfering to our train that brings us back to Galesburg, Il.


Devils Lake rises and falls on a long timescale - once the line goes under water it may be six months or ten years before it reappears. But unless you are boarding/detraining in Rugby, Devils Lake, or Grand Forks, there is no reason to worry. The detour route will be as fast as the current routing - probably faster given that they are skipping three stops and traveling a shorter route between Fargo and Minot. I expect Amtrak will eventually publish an updated timetable, adding a stop in New Rockford so that folks in central ND don't have to drive 140 miles to board a train that passes right by their homes.


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## henryj (Apr 27, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Article on Devils Lake situation:
> 
> http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?pageNum_rsTSnews2=0&totalRows_rsTSnews2=3746&ID=0000003937
> 
> ...


Daily service would greatly increase the popularity and availability of the Sunset route making it more attractive. You can't just multiply by 7/3 and get a valid answer. Amtrak ignores the Southwest because of the political situation, nothing to do with economics. Nothing has been done to improve this train. It gets second hand equipment and not much of it. You can't get a reservation on it because of the limited space. The schedule is ridiculous, particularly eastbound. It doesn't serve Phoenix, a metro area of 4 million even though it stops only 35 miles from it. Not even a van or bus. Amtrak runs trains where it gets political support and pressure to do so. Even so, the Sunset had the second highest increase in ridership in Fy2010 at 16.4%. So what I am saying is if Amtrak got serious about this route it would do just fine. They just don't five a hoot.


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## George B (Apr 27, 2011)

henryj said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Article on Devils Lake situation:
> ...


You can’t say that Amtrak does not serve Phoenix. Maricopa is only 30 minutes away from downtown Phoenix during the hours that the train arrives and departs. That is like saying an airline that flies into DFW International does not serve Fort Worth because it takes at least 30 minutes to get to DFW from downtown Fort Worth. You can take a shuttle or a taxi to Maricopa from anywhere in Phoenix. I’d rather drive to Maricopa than go to downtown Phoenix anyway.

Amtrak’s biggest operational problem on the SSL and TE is the host railroad….Union Pacific. They are not easy to deal with at all.

Having lived in Phoenix a long time, my opinion is that ridership would not increase much at all if Amtrak went to daily service on the SSL. Most people in Phoenix couldn’t tell a train from a bicycle, nor do they care to. Public transportation is a joke here considering this is the sixth largest city in the US. If people here want to go somewhere, they will drive their car to the huge airport we have and fly anywhere they need to go. They consider trains and busses to be an “East Coast” thing.


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## henryj (Apr 27, 2011)

George B said:


> You can take a shuttle or a taxi to Maricopa from anywhere in Phoenix. I’d rather drive to Maricopa than go to downtown Phoenix anyway.
> Having lived in Phoenix a long time, my opinion is that ridership would not increase much at all if Amtrak went to daily service on the SSL. Most people in Phoenix couldn’t tell a train from a bicycle, nor do they care to. Public transportation is a joke here considering this is the sixth largest city in the US. If people here want to go somewhere, they will drive their car to the huge airport we have and fly anywhere they need to go. They consider trains and busses to be an “East Coast” thing.


There is nothing in Maricopa and it's in the middle of nowhere. Amtrak gives no information on how to get to Phoenix, not even a phone number to call. If you happen to get off there and haven't made any plans or arangements you are just stuck. If you fly into any major airport there are numerous options for transportation. In doing the research I have only found one firm that will meet you at Maricopa or take you there. The fee is $50+ and you have to make reservations in advance. Phoenix is making great strides in public transportation with the new light rail line. As for people's attitude about trains, you can say that about most anywhere. Even in your northeast there are people that won't use the NEC, they would rather fly. And certainly the silver trains and auto train carry only a miniscule fraction of the total passengers going to Florida. Even in Europe where they have arguably the finest passenger railroads in the world a large number of passengers just fly. When the flights were cancelled due to the volcano in iceland last year you would have thought the world ended. People just sat in the airports without a thought of taking the train. So I don't see your point other than to just trash the Sunset Limited and anyone that supports it. Ridership will increase substantially if the service ever goes daily and would increase even more if Amtrak had the equipment and advertised it. But if you are asking me if trains will ever surpass flying in the southwest I would have to say no way. So the question is then, are any long distance trains worth running or saving given tne tiny role they play in the over all transportation picture?


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## George B (Apr 28, 2011)

henryj said:


> There is nothing in Maricopa and it's in the middle of nowhere. Amtrak gives no information on how to get to Phoenix, not even a phone number to call. If you happen to get off there and haven't made any plans or arangements you are just stuck. If you fly into any major airport there are numerous options for transportation. In doing the research I have only found one firm that will meet you at Maricopa or take you there. The fee is $50+ and you have to make reservations in advance. Phoenix is making great strides in public transportation with the new light rail line. As for people's attitude about trains, you can say that about most anywhere. Even in your northeast there are people that won't use the NEC, they would rather fly. And certainly the silver trains and auto train carry only a miniscule fraction of the total passengers going to Florida. Even in Europe where they have arguably the finest passenger railroads in the world a large number of passengers just fly. When the flights were cancelled due to the volcano in iceland last year you would have thought the world ended. People just sat in the airports without a thought of taking the train. So I don't see your point other than to just trash the Sunset Limited and anyone that supports it. Ridership will increase substantially if the service ever goes daily and would increase even more if Amtrak had the equipment and advertised it. But if you are asking me if trains will ever surpass flying in the southwest I would have to say no way. So the question is then, are any long distance trains worth running or saving given tne tiny role they play in the over all transportation picture?


Maricopa has a population of 45,000 and has quite a bit of business in and around it. I think you are remembering how it was 20 years ago when it was around 1300 people and really was nowhere. That said, I am not a fan or Maricopa at all, but at least people in Phoenix are within reasonable driving time of two East-West routes….the SWC in Flag and the SSL in Maricopa. It could be a lot worse for us.

You can say that most people in most places couldn’t care less about the trains. However, the attitude is much worse in Phoenix. They are trying to get light rail going here, but you can’t even really take a bus much of anywhere around town without it being a major hassle. Public transportation here is 35 to 50 years behind, and that is not an exaggeration.

I would love it if more people took the train, and I hope that the SSL goes to a daily schedule, as I often have to drive to Flagstaff instead to keep my trips on schedule due to the SSL’s staggered schedule. I think it would be great if there was daily rail service to and from Tucson or Flagstaff from Phoenix. But, I don’t share your opinion at all that ridership would increase. Since Amtrak is always short on capital and equipment, I can see them sacrificing route like the SSL to keep the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder going. I can’t blame them, either.

I did not ask if train ridership will ever match or surpass flying, as it is a silly question. Of course it never will. The people and the government have made it clear where they want to put their money and support…..getting there as fast and as conveniently as possible.

Are LD trains worth saving, you ask? As you have said, most of it is political. If you ever have Republicans in charge of the Senate, House, and the Presidency all at once, you can bet that most LD trains would disappear overnight. That is not a put-down of Republicans, it is just the political philosophy of that party.

I cannot stand how the government subsidizes the heck out of air travel. But, it is needed to keep the economy going. Does the national economy become weaker if they kill off all LD trains? Probably not. You can look at the state and local economies in a different way, as a decent percentage currently on LD train routes would see substantial economic loss. That’s why the Empire Builder has strong political support that starts at the local and state level.

In the end, I would bet that Amtrak looks just about the same in ten years as it does right now. I bet they will still be running the SSL on the same schedule for a number of reasons I will not get in to because this post is already too long. The problem is, I think the odds are just barely in favor of things being the same, or better.


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## Mackensen (Apr 28, 2011)

There's another article today in the _Minot Daily News_. It definitely sounds like Amtrak's going ahead with the re-route, but only as an interim measure (publicly, anyway). I think this bit might be new:



> But he said Amtrak would not be able to offer chartered bus service for a long time because of the expense.


I assume at least Grand Forks would get a Thruway connection in the event of a permanent re-route; Jefferson Lines still operates a couple buses a day between the two.


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## WICT106 (Apr 28, 2011)

Reading the exchanges here, I notice a slight similarity between the PHX - Maricopa situation and the Madison - Columbus, WI situation here in Wisconsin. I want to point out that when one doesn't stop directly in the City itself, ridership decreases, as there are those in the general public who refuse to travel to "that little town out there" in order to board the train. For those who contend that Maricopa serves PHX in a tolerable fashion, I state from personal experience that Columbus is, at best, a barely acceptable effort to serve the Madison/Dane County market.


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## eagle628 (Apr 28, 2011)

henryj said:


> Daily service would greatly increase the popularity and availability of the Sunset route making it more attractive. You can't just multiply by 7/3 and get a valid answer. Amtrak ignores the Southwest because of the political situation, nothing to do with economics. Nothing has been done to improve this train. It gets second hand equipment and not much of it. You can't get a reservation on it because of the limited space. The schedule is ridiculous, particularly eastbound. It doesn't serve Phoenix, a metro area of 4 million even though it stops only 35 miles from it. Not even a van or bus. Amtrak runs trains where it gets political support and pressure to do so. Even so, the Sunset had the second highest increase in ridership in Fy2010 at 16.4%. So what I am saying is if Amtrak got serious about this route it would do just fine. They just don't five a hoot.



Amtrak is a creature of politics and always will be. Of course they're going to operate the best service they can to the areas that have traditionally been supportive to rail service. What's the point of pouring money into a region that couldn't care less about rail service and whose politicians have always been hostile towards Amtrak? It's the same principle that led to Harley's Hornet. Why would Amtrak spend precious money on the Sunset instead of the Builder? As long as they plan to spend money on long-distance trains, does it not make sense to spend money on trains where there is existing support for them? If politicians support rail service on the Builder's route but not on the Sunset's, why would Amtrak not support the area that has supported it?


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## fairviewroad (Apr 28, 2011)

There are some of us who tune into this thread for the latest developments on the Empire Builder

situation. Can we please not turn this into another Sunset Limited thread?


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## henryj (Apr 28, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> There are some of us who tune into this thread for the latest developments on the Empire Builder
> 
> situation. Can we please not turn this into another Sunset Limited thread?


Yes, and I apologize.


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## cav1865 (Apr 28, 2011)

We're going to ride the Empire Builder from Montana to Chicago on 18 May, so I am monitoring EB's arrival and departure times on its route. I'm still surprised at how much time EB loses once it hits North Dakota. It is reasonably on time through Montana and into Minot, but it still loses over 2 hours from Minot through Grand Forks and to Fargo. Coming west, EB is always 2 hours late once it gets to Montana: again, probably from slow-order pace through North Dakota. From Grand Forks to Fargo, EB must be on a very slow-order pace to consistently lose this much time. You have to wonder when Amtrak is going to decide to take the Surrey Cutoff and bustitution from Devils Lake, Rugby, and Grand Forks. The assumption being the Surrey Cutoff can't be any worse.


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## Lynn (May 2, 2011)

After reading these posts, I am wondering if there is anyone that knows for sure if the EB is in fact using the Surrey Cutoff as of today, or if it will be using it this week? And if so- wouldn't this logically be a quicker route time and mileage wise from Minot to Fargo? I see the eastbound EB was 9 hrs late into CHI on 5/1- 9 hrs! How can anyone catch a Michigan connection train when the EB is this late into CHI? Does anyone have any concrete answers as to if the Surrey Cutoff is being used now or would be in service by May 19th? Just unreal how late the EB is arriving in Fargo.


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## Bob Dylan (May 2, 2011)

Lynn said:


> After reading these posts, I am wondering if there is anyone that knows for sure if the EB is in fact using the Surrey Cutoff as of today, or if it will be using it this week? And if so- wouldn't this logically be a quicker route time and mileage wise from Minot to Fargo? I see the eastbound EB was 9 hrs late into CHI on 5/1- 9 hrs! How can anyone catch a Michigan connection train when the EB is this late into CHI? Does anyone have any concrete answers as to if the Surrey Cutoff is being used now or would be in service by May 19th? Just unreal how late the EB is arriving in Fargo.


It's just not Flooding causing Delays, did you Catch the Video of the Blizzard Snow Storm Up that Way,  ?? Tough Winter/Spring on the HighLine and Midwest and Southeast for sure!  Everyones ready for Summer I think! (No cracks about Endless Summer in SOCO are allowed, we Won't discuss Fires/Mudslides and Earthquakes here! :lol: :lol: :lol: )


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## Hawkeye (May 2, 2011)

I am taking the EB to Chicago and then onto DC vis the CL the third week in May...what happens if we get to Chicago late and the CL has already left?


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## Ispolkom (May 2, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> It's just not Flooding causing Delays, did you Catch the Video of the Blizzard Snow Storm Up that Way,  ??


My mother in Minot grumbled this weekend that you know it's spring in North Dakota because you get *both* blizzard warnings *and* flood warnings at the same time.

Even if Amtrak switches to the Surrey cutoff, I'd not be surprised by a couple of hours delay through North Dakota. Snow is still melting (many places got all time snow records this winter), and I'll bet there are lots of soft sections of track.

Things should improve quickly in the next couple of weeks, if No. Dak. gets a break from rain and snow, and the spring melt drains more. It should be a great year for ducks and white pelicans in North Dakota, if not for farmers and railroadmen.


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## bwitt (May 3, 2011)

It was snowing pretty good up through Marias Pass on Friday morning, glad I was on that train and not the one the next day.


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## Russell (May 5, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> EB four hours late into Chicago yesterday. Hope Amtrak at least try the Cutoff soon. We are riding EB to Chicago on 18 May and then change to Capitol Limited same day. We have only a 2 hour 15 minute window to make the change - doesn't look good. Maybe bustitution from MSP?


. 
I am taking the EB Builder from Pasco to Chicago, and have a connecting train to St Louis at 5:15pm on May 21, so hopefully the Train is not delayed too bad then, though I am not keeping my hopes up at this point based on what I have been reading about on time performance in the last few months. BTW, does anyone know why the EB empire builder scheduled to depart Pasco at 5:30am on May 3 was delayed by three hours, took it between Pasco and Portland, and it was my first train ride, while the trip was enjoyable, this was just a bad way to start my train riding experience, don't ya think?  oh well, no harm, no foul, had plenty of time still to do stuff in Portland b4 heading back to PSC


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## Bob (May 5, 2011)

Really hope it all clears up by May 18, I am scheduled on the EB Builder into Chi that day, and don't wanna miss my connecting train. BTW what happens if I do, does Amtrak put me on a later train, or would it be a busituation to my Final destination, St Louis.


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## Trogdor (May 5, 2011)

If a later train is available to your destination, you will be put on it.


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## HoosierStater (May 5, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> If a later train is available to your destination, you will be put on it.


Unfortunately, in the situation given, there isn't a later direct train from CHI-WAS. The only trains running this directly are the Cardinal and the Capitol Limited, and the Cap is the later train. The options would seem to be either waiting until the next day's train(s), or taking the Lake Shore Limited (departing at 930P) and a NEC train from Penn Station to WAS.


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## Trogdor (May 5, 2011)

My response was mainly directed to the person heading to St. Louis. But, in general, regardless of city/connection, the default reaccommodation for a misconnect is the next train, if one is available.


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## cav1865 (May 6, 2011)

I'm pretty much resigned to missing our connection from Empire Builder to Capitol Limited on 19 May in Chicago. We have only a 2 1/2 hour window to make the connection, and with North Dakota flooding and slow-orders in place, EB is very late now getting into Chicago. I don't see this improving anytime soon. We booked a roomette on CL, so someone will get our reserved roomette that we won't make. My thought is next day's EB will probably be late too, so we might get a roomette on the CL originally booked (hopefully) for someone coming on that day's (and late?) inbound EB. Happy Train Day to all.


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## Gingee (May 6, 2011)

Okay we are due on the Empire Builder May 23rd from Seattle to Chicago. Then a two hour wait (hopefully a wait - not a miss) on the train to Galesburg. If the Empire is late, what does Amtrak do with us? Is there any other trains going that way? Maybe in the morning? If we have to stay overnight, do they put you up in a hotel? If not, what hotels are close?


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## cav1865 (May 7, 2011)

Gingee said:


> Okay we are due on the Empire Builder May 23rd from Seattle to Chicago. Then a two hour wait (hopefully a wait - not a miss) on the train to Galesburg. If the Empire is late, what does Amtrak do with us? Is there any other trains going that way? Maybe in the morning? If we have to stay overnight, do they put you up in a hotel? If not, what hotels are close?


If you miss a connection because your train arrived late, go immediately to the Amtrak service desk and tell them. Depending on where you are traveling, Amtrak will look at options of busing, next available train, or refund. If no options exist for that day/night Amtrak will find lodging for you at their expense, including cab fair. Don't know where in Chicago, however.


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## The Cardinal (May 7, 2011)

cav1865 said:


> Gingee said:
> 
> 
> > Okay we are due on the Empire Builder May 23rd from Seattle to Chicago. Then a two hour wait (hopefully a wait - not a miss) on the train to Galesburg. If the Empire is late, what does Amtrak do with us? Is there any other trains going that way? Maybe in the morning? If we have to stay overnight, do they put you up in a hotel? If not, what hotels are close?
> ...


Last fall I was connecting from the EB to the CL. EB was 4 hours late, so I missed my connection to the CL. AMTRAK put all of us up at the Hyatt Regency McCormick place. Gave us cab fare, food allowance and ticketed us for the next day's CL. The hotel was even nice enough to let me check out at around 2 p.m the next day. All in all AMTRAK did what they could to make it as pleasant as possible. I have no complaints as to how they handled things.


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## Gingee (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the information. I wonder if the flooding is going down yet.


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## PaulM (May 8, 2011)

Gingee said:


> Okay we are due on the Empire Builder May 23rd from Seattle to Chicago. Then a two hour wait (hopefully a wait - not a miss) on the train to Galesburg. If the Empire is late, what does Amtrak do with us? Is there any other trains going that way? Maybe in the morning? If we have to stay overnight, do they put you up in a hotel? If not, what hotels are close?


If you miss the last train to Galesburg, the 5:55PM IZ, my money is on a van or even a limo.

If for some reason, they don't put you in a van, they will give you a voucher for a hotel in the loop, plus food money and cab fare. The Carl Sandurg heads out to GBB and QCY around 7:30AM.


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## bwitt (May 11, 2011)

If you miss the Galesburg connection put your money on a white Ford van that rides really rough for 2 1/2 hours. I was on the EB on Apr 30th and we arrived about 2 hrs late missing our connection. It was somewhere just past Milwaukee when they made an announcement onboard explaining what was going to happen with missed connections and they had vans and buses going all sorts of directions that night. In Chicago they will have you wait by the customer service office until the van gets there. Overall we arrived at GBB about 45min later than we would of on the train, the only issue was that no one from CHI called the station agent in GBB to tell him a van was coming so the doors to the station were locked when we got there and he was kind of unfriendly until he called someone in Chicago and figured out what was going on.


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## davel (May 15, 2011)

I am also travelling 23rd may chicago to seattle on empire builder. What is the likelihood of it going ahead as scheduled ?


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## TraneMan (May 15, 2011)

davel said:


> I am also travelling 23rd may chicago to seattle on empire builder. What is the likelihood of it going ahead as scheduled ?


The train has been running, but just behind schedule. Today it been be around hour and half behind so far.


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## cav1865 (May 16, 2011)

My wife and I will board the Empire Builder (EB) this Wednesday, 18 May at Malta, MT bound for Chicago. We will return same route at month's end. I am taking my hand-held Garmin GPS to record EB times and speed throughout the trip to Chicago. I will report what I find. We transfer to the Capitol Limited to Washington D.C. same day in Chicago and we have only 2 hours and 15 minutes to make the transfer from the time EB is supposed to arrive and the time Capitol Limited departs. It's going to be close. If EB is late and we don't make the transfer, we'll do a day in Chicago on Amtrak's dime. Wish us luck!


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## busboy (May 17, 2011)

I just took the EB from Chicago arriving in Seattle today (Monday the 16th). The train ran slowly thru the Devils lake are it cost us about an hour, but we made up the time and arrived in Seattle exactly on time.

Had a great time and the crew was fantastic, the best I've ever had on Amtrak.


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## David Gilmour (May 18, 2011)

Hi, I just got switched from train number 305 on friday from Chicago to St Louis, to a bus instead, now they didn't tell me this on the phone, so do I exchange my ticket for the bus ticket, or is the train ticket good for the bus?


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