# OK Amtrak Apologists



## guest in the west (Jul 13, 2012)

OK. San Diego is hosting Comic-Con this week, the annual convention blockbuster of action comics, Hollywood movies, videos and the like, with 120,000 people attending. It gets bigger every year, with thousands of people, esp. young people, coming from the LA area.

So does Amtrak plan for the extra loads that happen every year on the Pacific Surfliner?

Of course not! :wacko:

Surfliner trains were jammed on Thursday, standing-room only almost the entire distance LA-San Diego.

Take just one example, the 790 at 7:30 p.m. Amfleet equipment with only TWO conductors, meaning for the hundreds of passengers one door open next to the BC-Cafe car and the other at the other end of the train. Passengers screaming that the train was going to leaved before they could get to an exit. People standing the aisles, sitting in the vestibules. No extra cars, no extra personnel, no extra provisions in the Cafe Car for those who could squeeze through.

Almost all of this line is owned by SoCal rail agencies. Freight trains run only late at night when practically all passenger service has ended. There was no weather issue. There were no other acts of God. There was just an abysmal lack of planning by Atmrak for something that happens every year about this time. How difficult is it to add a third conductor for several days, or a week, to some trains? Are there no spare coaches available anymore on the Pacific Surfliner system for certain trains? Does the commissary need a half-year to order extra items, like soft drinks, sandwiches and beer?

The two conductors were apologizing profusely for much of the way, both over the PA system and individually to discomforted passengers, for what they repeatedly called "the Pacific Surfliner" mess.

Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together, esp. when there are a lot of first-time travelers--to the point where the young adult passengers who are much more willing to put up with snafus than the persons on this forum were talking about Amtrak with disgust.

Way to go Amtrak!!


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## the_traveler (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;


The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?





The coaches used on the Surfliner *ARE* *NOT* owned by Amtrak! They are ownedby the state of California! And there are not any spares. So either have the state pay $xxx MILLION for additional cars and have them either run almost empty or sit unused for 45-50 weeks a year, or suffer some inconvenience for a few days.
To put "another 1 or 2 conductors" on the train, you first have to hire them and train them for years. Or do you want to take conductors from other routes leaving those routes short?





These are only a few things to consider.


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## RRUserious (Jul 13, 2012)

Truth is that for the most part, all train service is trapped in a budgetary box. Hardly any of it can count on the gazillions in investment money put into cars and planes. So don't ever expect the service to be as scaleable as other forms of transportation. Frankly, America is lucky to have any train service at all. If Wall Street made the decision, the stock brokers would ride to work on trains and everyone else would get to choose between driving, flying, or busing.


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## NY Penn (Jul 13, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;
> 
> 
> The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
> ...


I'm not the OP, but I'll reply to this one.

1. If there is a period where a significantly higher number of people will be traveling, you try to add cars to as many trains as possible.

2. There are no spares? So what happens when a car goes for an FRA inspection? Or when equipment breaks down?

There ARE spares, so the inspections can be rescheduled (as was done, IIRC, when the CONO received 5 extra coaches over Thanksgiving) and the extra cars sent onto the route.

3. Have you never heard of the extra list? Such as the list that conductors come from when somebody calls out sick?

So yes, if Amtrak can manage it over Thanksgiving, but can't manage it here, there's nothing but incompetence.

EDIT: RRUserious: What does money have anything to do with it? It doesn't cost that much to add a car or two to a train. While yes, the fiscal situation could be better for Amtrak, it's not relevant.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 13, 2012)

Sorry but cramming hundreds of people into a few cars is not the answer. Since this event happens every year they could add a couple superliner cars.. I don't care if it's unreserved it's not a intercity bus you don't keep shoving people in until the point the car is going to burst at the seams cause in the event of a emergency you got people clogging the doors preventing others from getting out. Amtrak can do better. or what they could do is make it reserved only during the time the event is in town.


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## TimePeace (Jul 13, 2012)

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.


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## NY Penn (Jul 13, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> >>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<
> 
> An excellent attitude to bring to the forum as a guest. We will be sure to look for other useful contributions from you.


Truth hurts, right?

With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day. It didn't, and probably discouraged quite a few people from riding Amtrak. That's purely Amtrak's fault, nobody else's.

And why does it matter whether this person is a guest? Would it matter if a long-time member posted it?


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## yarrow (Jul 13, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;
> 
> 
> The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
> ...



once again you name what you think are facts (no extra coaches, no extra staff)without having the information to back them up.


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## RRUserious (Jul 13, 2012)

Hard to really know when you ride a train for the first time WHY something is so screwed up. All you know is that the trip isn't very pleasant. Real train lovers are gonna shake it off and plan their next trip. But how far would the train routes get serving only "real train lovers"? Of course, I don't think trains are going out of business, but they could chill any hopes of growth. Every unhappy customer is a voter who'll be receptive to claims that Amtrak can't run a proper business. Just a sad political fact. I don't really care if there are " good explanations". That tends not to save businesses that drive customers away.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 13, 2012)

Nice to hear the Surfliners are SRO and got all that extra revenue. They are a very popular service, and has been for years and will continue to be as the leading corridor outside the NEC. Thanks for the good news.


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## TimePeace (Jul 13, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Maine Rider said:
> 
> 
> > >>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<
> ...


Actually, I'm sorry to say you're right, he or she fits right in with a lot of members... mostly full of complaints.

This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them. And those folks are equally welcome. So no, it makes no difference that it's a guest.

As far as discouraging new riders: I wonder how many folks have looked in here and said "nahhhh, sounds like a hassle, let's fly."

Once again, whine on folks.


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## NY Penn (Jul 13, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > Maine Rider said:
> ...


When there's no explanation, the apologists resort to accusing everyone else of whining. Typical.

There's NO EXPLANATION of why Amtrak screwed up. And that's driving lots of customers away. Of course, there are those who would ride the trains even if they traveled at the speed of a snail, with no AC/heat and rude staff, but most people are LOGICAL and choose the best service.

It's no surprise that the majority is mostly full of complaints. Although some people post trip reports after a good experience, there is more of a reason to do so after a bad trip. And given that, frankly, there's almost always something to complain about on Amtrak, there are going to be a lot of complaints.

EDIT

>>As far as discouraging new riders: I wonder how many folks have looked in here and said "nahhhh, sounds like a hassle, let's fly."<<

There are almost definitely more first-time riders on Amtrak than first-time readers of this forum (I'm going by what people on this forum have said). Even so, that has nothing to do with Amtrak's failure to provide a decent service.


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## TimePeace (Jul 13, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Maine Rider said:
> 
> 
> > NY Penn said:
> ...


To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.


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## NY Penn (Jul 13, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.


It's sad that that's your best argument.

Fact is, there's no explaining this away. It is what it is.


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## TimePeace (Jul 13, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Maine Rider said:
> 
> 
> > To reiterate: Whine on - and see if it makes your life any better.
> ...



I don't find it sad at all that you just spoke the truth. *It is what it is*. But what you need to do is learn to get used to it. Or else find a way to change it. Can you make a case that all the complaining and badmouthing of Amtrak management does any good?


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## Mackensen (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.

Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we *know* there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.

I won't accuse anyone of whining. I will, however, gently suggest that blame, if blame is to be assessed, belongs with the state agencies and not with Amtrak, unless we find out that Caltrans was ready with the money to expand service and Amtrak simply refused to do it.

Any takers?


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## GG-1 (Jul 13, 2012)

Aloha

How about considering the true situation. 12,000 people attend this event. Amtrak and the San Diego Convention Center accommodated everyone in a manner that has resulted in a multiple repeat event.


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## Paulus (Jul 13, 2012)

Mackensen said:


> I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.
> 
> Any service expansion would probably require additional funding from Caltrans, and last I heard California's got budget problems. Furthermore, we *know* there isn't extra Surfliner equipment because 798/799 runs with single-level equipment, much to everyone's annoyance.
> 
> ...


PSL equipment, with the exception of seven Superliners that Caltrans leased in exchange for repairing them, is owned by Amtrak, not the State of California.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 13, 2012)

Amtrak may not have extra surfliner cars but I'm sure they could scrounge up a couple superliner cars to handle the extra masses.It's not like this comic con happened at the last minute. It's held every year amtrak can plain ahead and find a few extra superliners to handle the extra load. Ether that or make the trains reserved so they don't become overcrowded and look like the unreserved trains in india. If amtrak can do it over thanksgiving then why can't they do it here. Also If amtrak has no spare conductors or engineers then what happeneds when a conductor or engineer calls in sick and can't make it. Does that train get cancelled cause theres no one to run it.


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## Mackensen (Jul 13, 2012)

Paulus said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that no one's picked up on the Traveler's most important point: the equipment belongs to the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans). Amtrak operates these trains under the "Amtrak California" brand but most of the money comes from California. The tracks belong to a mixture of freight railroads and Metrolink.
> ...


I'm pretty sure that's not the case, though I'm open to being proved wrong. To the best of my knowledge the "California Cars" were bought by California (using money from Prop 108 and 116) and are only used on Surfliner route. Amtrak California (which is Caltrans) thinks so too (see here and here for examples). I think I've seen a California Car outside the state once in my life.


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## Paulus (Jul 13, 2012)

I really should register one of these days.



Mackensen said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > Mackensen said:
> ...


California Cars are indeed owned by Caltrans, but they are used only on San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor. Surfliner cars are different, though built to the same plans (I think with some minor differences, not sure), and are entirely owned by Amtrak along with all the engines.


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## Mackensen (Jul 13, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Amtrak may not have extra surfliner cars but I'm sure they could scrounge up a couple superliner cars to handle the extra masses.It's not like this comic con happened at the last minute. It's held every year amtrak can plain ahead and find a few extra superliners to handle the extra load. Ether that or make the trains reserved so they don't become overcrowded and look like the unreserved trains in india. If amtrak can do it over thanksgiving then why can't they do it here. Also If amtrak has no spare conductors or engineers then what happeneds when a conductor or engineer calls in sick and can't make it. Does that train get cancelled cause theres no one to run it.


Thanksgiving is an interesting case study. It's truly an all-hands-on-deck situation; Amtrak even leases electric multiple units from New Jersey Transit for use on the Corridor.

Last year's press release.

There's interesting stuff in there. Capacity was added to the Surfliners, and they were made reservation only. Note this too:

"Anticipating the busiest travel week of the year, Amtrak, the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) and the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority (CCJPA) are planning ahead for Thanksgiving by adding extra equipment to accommodate extra passengers traveling by rail throughout California"

Apparently Amtrak and Caltrans didn't think Comic-Con was a big enough event, or there simply wasn't equipment available. Amtrak only manages Thanksgiving by operating everything it has, with little or nothing in reserve and (I think) normal maintenance cycles curtailed. 3200 extra seats on the Surfliner is pretty impressive; I'd love to know how many coaches that represents. Obviously some trainsets were turned so it's not as simple as dividing 3200 by a car's capacity. We also don't know what was used.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 13, 2012)

I HAVE been accused of being an apologist before... but I would like to say one thing about the staff. It is NOT necessary to have more than 2 Conductors on the train in order to increase staff.. you can add Coach Attendants. In fact, adding more Conductors would be a waste of money (they are paid more, and count as Operating Staff with the FRA etc.). I'm sure there are Attendants available on the Extra board in Cali... so that is one call that could of certainly been made.

I can say that this is everyday life on NJ Transit and probably countless other transit companies across the world. Have you ever seen video of the trains in Japan during rush hour? This happens when transit gets maxed out. When there is traffic do you insist that an extra lane should be added? Now I know it SOUNDS simple to "add extra cars" but as others have asked are the cars available? Are the platforms on this route long enough to handle extra cars and if so.. how many? As for adding an extra train.. that means extra locomotives, an extra trains set, an entire operating crew and scheduling the train for meets etc. Is this route capable of adding extra trains? (double track? siding? can meets work?) and who is responsible for making sure that would logistically work? I'm not saying it's possible or not.. I'm just saying it sounds alot easier then it is.


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## Exiled in Express (Jul 13, 2012)

I have 2 friends attending this event, I was briefly pushing for flights into LAX and the Surfliner down due to better timing and cost. They ended up delaying a decision and Southwest won their business to SAN directly. Gladthey opted to stay off the railway if this was the outcome, I never would have won them back to rail after that.

It seems like some of the subpar third party agency equipment that is pressed into service during the holiday period on the NEC could be repositioned for these events.


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## rusty spike (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't know about extra operating crew as in conductors, but Amtrak California is a branded entity of, and is "funded and managed" by CalTrans (California State Dept of Transportation); Amtrak is contracted only to operate the equipment provided them.

About AmtrakCalifornia.

Having said that, Amtrak will get all the blame on this, and maybe they should, but in this case we are dealing with two separate agencies, Federal & State Departments of Transportation. It's amazing it runs as smoothly as it does.


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## afigg (Jul 13, 2012)

Mackensen said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > PSL equipment, with the exception of seven Superliners that Caltrans leased in exchange for repairing them, is owned by Amtrak, not the State of California.
> ...


According to wikipedia, nearly all of the Surfliner cars and locomotives used by Amtrak California are owned by the state. Of course, that may not be the most reliable source.

But Amtrak operates the 3 services for the state under the name of Amtrak California. They should have some flexibility to shift cars when they need to. However, we simply don't know the equipment availability situation that day and whether Amtrak had enough warning to prepare. If it is all unreserved ticket sales, the sales tracking software can't flag that a train or trains have been sold out. How many of the tickets were brought at the station prior to getting on the train, thereby not giving Amtrak a direct advance warning? Easy for someone going to a convention to think that everyone else ought to be aware of it, but that is not always the case.


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## Mackensen (Jul 13, 2012)

Paulus said:


> I really should register one of these days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right, "California Cars" and Surfliners are two separate Superliner-derived equipment sets; I was wrong to conflate the two. Alstom built them in two batches; 2000 and 2002 (see http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtk-roster-cars.shtml#California). I know Amtrak owns the locomotives for the Surfliner; I thought California owned the Surfliner equipment too but apparently not. I've tracked down the original press release; Amtrak bought the sets itself: http://www.trainweb.com/2000/atk98029.html.

I stand corrected. Amtrak owns the equipment. Any additional equipment lying around in the area though belongs to California.

To address a point raised by someone else, the Surf Line between LA and San Diego is mostly single-tracked with passing sidings.


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## R30A (Jul 13, 2012)

Actually, I believe everyone is wrong so far on the ownership. Unless I am mistaken, (which I could be) the 6X0X-6X1X cars are Amtrak owned, and the 6X5X are California owned. All engines are Amtrak owned. For the cars, that is 39/49 owned by Amtrak and 10/49 by Caltrans.


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## DesertRat (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, first off, is Amtrak supposed to plan for this sort if thing? Should the organizers of the Comic-Con have reached out to coordinate with Caliornia and Amtrak to begin with?

I mean, for the annual parade my city holds every year, we have military equipment loaned as rides for the honored guests, but the city has to contact the military each year to identify the equipment needed. I would think that holds true for *any* event to coordiante support.


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## Anderson (Jul 14, 2012)

Ok, quick question here: Does Amtrak add either cars or frequencies on the Surfliners at Thanksgiving? I don't recall off the top of my head, but I _think_ they do (as I know the Cascades and NE Regionals get extra frequencies, and lots of LD trains get extra cars)? If nothing else, they could carry out a serious experiment by "shuffling" their equipment schedule and making sure that no cars are going to be out for inspection/repair that weekend and also adding any Superliner spares in LA as well.

Likewise, they could also run the weekday schedule on that particular weekend...though to be fair this wouldn't fix the Thursday problem. They could also arrange to run an extra frequency in the afternoon/evening...and though I don't know if they do this yet, they could _always_ work with SDCC to publicize any service additions during Comic Con.

And yes, Amtrak could deadhead a couple of Superliner spares out on the Chief (and, per the pending regs, probably charge a use fee to Amtrak California).

Edit: Per the above, I think this is, to some extent, a "Both of you screwed up" type of event. On the one hand, it might be good if SDCC reached out to Amtrak (or, for that matter, DragonCon or any of the other major cons did). On the other hand, most cons don't go beyond the con itself and arranging official hotels, and I think it is probably too much to expect them to make more than a courtesy call.

On Amtrak's side, if you get a regular surge in ridership on a given weekend each year, somebody in the bean counting office should note the spike in tickets being redeemed/used and/or someone should note the unusual SRO situation and make a note of it (and ask themselves what might be causing this). A little data mining can go a _long_ way, and you'd think they would "catch on".


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

I believe one of the chief differences between the northern corridor cars and the southern (Surfliner) cars are that in the Surfliner, or second, batch, all of the cafe's have the cafe itself on the bottom. The first batch had them on top. Not many other differences. I know that there aren't any upstairs cafes on the PacSurf, but I'm not sure either of whether there are any downstairs cafes on the Cap and the SJ. While I believe that almost all of the California Cars in general are Caltrans-owned, I will not make this statement without admitting I don't know so as not to be ridiculed. I do not one bit consider myself an Amtrak apologist, but these people here are going through what MANY go through every day on 784 and 785, and I don't hear so many complaints about those trains being thrown around. If the 7:30 was that bad though, I can't possibly seem to fathom how it must have been on 784. At least it was bilevel, but geez. Seriously though, there is not that much equip to spare at all.


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## Ana (Jul 14, 2012)

That's a good point Desert Rat. ComicCon would also be able to provide more accurate numbers than gestimates based on previous years. I feel like for something like this the organisers should reach out to amtrak, it's not like a holiday like thanksgiving that most everyone is celebrating.

Also, and i guess this will mean I get called an apologist but I wanted to given the perspective of someone who loves riding amtrak, who has ridden trains on a regular basis in the UK, Germany and Australia and who is a non-US resident -what's wrong with trying to look on the positive side when things go wrong? Why everyone's experience have to be perfect? I am genuinely curious because I read so many hissy fits where something goes wrong and people say 'never again' and flounce straight back to their cars. The world doesn't revolve around any of us and things can go wrong but public transportation is so much more environmentally friendly so i think a bit of inconvenience is worth it. It also helps develop a sense of community. I have met so many people on trains I would never meet in the bubble of a car. If things go wrong, well, it can be annoying but so what? I can well imagine the situation described by the OP and it sounds sucky and could've been handled better but people got there and surely werent scarred for life, frankly, it sounds no worse than an ordinary London workday morning commute.

In most of the bad experiences people describe, passengers are still comfortable and safe. Being inconvenienced isn't the end of the world. In all my journeys I've had plenty go wrong, a mix of acts if god, accidents, bad planning, over overcrowding etc. It doesn't keep me up at night now  . I remember a trip in the UK where I had to zig zag across the country in a journey 3 times longer than it shouldve been because an accident messed everything up. I had to work those out self - no one boarded my train to give me hotel and cab vouchers! Paying full price (way more expensive than the cost of a ticket between LA and San Diego) to sit on the vestibule floor in both the uk and germany. I used to be crammed in so tight on my london commuter journey I could faint and not fall down. I think Amtrak is super cushy, lots of space, checked bags, food, guaranteed connections. The staff coddle passengers like nothing I've seen anywhere else ( we don't even have to work out which platform we have to board from!) and the refund policies and guaranteed connections are really generous.

I dont mean to offend anyone,i just have a lot of trouble understanding why people feel it necessary to let a bad experience be the be all and end and stop them doing something that I think really benefits society overall (and is pretty darn fun!). Sometimes things don't go perfectly and I'm all for ranting about it, it sure makes me feel better too. Might help too, with suggestions about how things could be improved, But when I hear the 'i cannot believe I was so inconvenienced, I shall never go near a train again' type rants I can't help but think, really, you're that precious?

ETA sorry about the formatting, I can't get the paragraph spaces to show.


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## rusty spike (Jul 14, 2012)

Ana said:


> That's a good point Desert Rat. ComicCon would also be able to provide more accurate numbers than gestimates based on previous years. I feel like for something like this the organisers should reach out to amtrak, it's not like a holiday like thanksgiving that most everyone is celebrating.
> 
> Also, and i guess this will mean I get called an apologist but I wanted to given the perspective of someone who loves riding amtrak, who has ridden trains on a regular basis in the UK, Germany and Australia and who is a non-US resident -what's wrong with trying to look on the positive side when things go wrong? Why everyone's experience have to be perfect? I am genuinely curious because I read so many hissy fits where something goes wrong and people say 'never again' and flounce straight back to their cars. The world doesn't revolve around any of us and things can go wrong but public transportation is so much more environmentally friendly so i think a bit of inconvenience is worth it. It also helps develop a sense of community. I have met so many people on trains I would never meet in the bubble of a car. If things go wrong, well, it can be annoying but so what? I can well imagine the situation described by the OP and it sounds sucky and could've been handled better but people got there and surely werent scarred for life, frankly, it sounds no worse than an ordinary London workday morning commute.
> 
> ...


A very good observation Ann.

Sometimes it takes an "outsider" to present a perspective that most Americans don't or can't see. Many foreign coutries would envy our transportation system, but all we hear about is the high speed rail systems of Europe and Japan and how inferior our system is. To some 3rd world countries our system is first class. I have seen city buses so crowded in a city like Mazatlan Mexico, if a pax is lucky enough to squeeze in the entrance door, usally someone,unintentionally leaves by the back door. And their pax rail system is gone.

Thanks for your insight.


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 14, 2012)

It seems there's a lot of blame to go around here:

1. Comic Con is an annual, popular event. Amtrak should be aware of this and plan for it.

2. Are there extra Surfliner/Superliners cars laying around the L.A. yard? If there are, then they should have been added to the consist for the four-day run of Comic Con.

3. If there are not extra cars in L.A., are there any extra Superliners any where at this time of the year? There may not be. Hauling cars from Chicago or San Francisco or Seattle may be too expensive or too time consuming.

4. Putting an extra assistant conductor on a train shouldn't be that hard in L.A. It's not like finding extra staff in the middle of Montana or Kansas. They're a large enough employee pool in L.A.

5. Perhaps an extra run or two could be added to the existing schedule using existing equipment. I'm not an expert on how efficiently the existing equipment is utilized.

6. In summary, yeah, Amtrak should do a better job with these kinds of special events.

7. I wonder if the Big Bang Theory gang rode Amtrak to Comic Con. Sheldon really loves trains.


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## JayPea (Jul 14, 2012)

Ana said:


> That's a good point Desert Rat. ComicCon would also be able to provide more accurate numbers than gestimates based on previous years. I feel like for something like this the organisers should reach out to amtrak, it's not like a holiday like thanksgiving that most everyone is celebrating.
> 
> Also, and i guess this will mean I get called an apologist but I wanted to given the perspective of someone who loves riding amtrak, who has ridden trains on a regular basis in the UK, Germany and Australia and who is a non-US resident -what's wrong with trying to look on the positive side when things go wrong? Why everyone's experience have to be perfect? I am genuinely curious because I read so many hissy fits where something goes wrong and people say 'never again' and flounce straight back to their cars. The world doesn't revolve around any of us and things can go wrong but public transportation is so much more environmentally friendly so i think a bit of inconvenience is worth it. It also helps develop a sense of community. I have met so many people on trains I would never meet in the bubble of a car. If things go wrong, well, it can be annoying but so what? I can well imagine the situation described by the OP and it sounds sucky and could've been handled better but people got there and surely werent scarred for life, frankly, it sounds no worse than an ordinary London workday morning commute.
> 
> ...



Hah! Now I love this post! I couldn't agree more with it! It's always refreshing to hear the perspective of someone from other than our own country. Gives a fresh way of looking at things. And this line:



Ana said:


> But when I hear the 'i cannot believe I was so inconvenienced, I shall never go near a train again' type rants I can't help but think, really, you're that precious?


has got to be one of my all-time lines ever! :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I'm going to adopt it as my own!!!


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## DesertRat (Jul 14, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> It seems there's a lot of blame to go around here:
> 
> 1. Comic Con is an annual, popular event. Amtrak should be aware of this and plan for it.
> 
> ...


Comic Con is nowhere as massive an event as Thanksgiving or the Super Bowl. Can Amtrak really be expected to plan some kind of information about the demand without some kind of input from the planners? Hopefully data mining will provide better service but really should we expect the same level of planning as they do for the holidays (public events that affects the entire national system) or major sporting events (private but affects major city systems including service to nearby cities???)


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 14, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them.


I agree that this forum is easily divided into two groups. First there are those who have jobs and responsibilities that require them to be at a specific place at a specific time and can only take Amtrak if they're willing and able to plan everything else around the train. Second, there are the folks who are retired or otherwise unencumbered and don't really care when or if they arrive at a specific time or a specific place so long as they never touch a plane or bus in the process. :lol:



Maine Rider said:


> Once again, whine on folks.


We'll get started just as soon as you finish. hboy:



TVRM610 said:


> I can say that this is everyday life on NJ Transit and probably countless other transit companies across the world. Have you ever seen video of the trains in Japan during rush hour?


Japan is home to around half of the size of the entire US population living on a landmass roughly the size of California. The vast majority of these people ride trains on a regular basis. Now, try to imagine _Amtrak California_ moving nearly half of _all Americans_ between home, work, and recreation with barely a few seconds of delay. In Japan you won't get very far blaming the train for making you late, just like in America you won't get very far claiming the train arrived _exactly_ when scheduled. :lol:



DesertRat said:


> Comic Con is nowhere as massive an event as Thanksgiving or the Super Bowl. Can Amtrak really be expected to plan some kind of information about the demand without some kind of input from the planners? Hopefully data mining will provide better service but really should we expect the same level of planning as they do for the holidays (public events that affects the entire national system) or major sporting events (private but affects major city systems including service to nearby cities???)


In my view Mike was making a series of perfectly reasonable points. Even if you have an answer for one or two of them it's hard to simply explain them all away with a single stroke. But your reply seems to be based on the idea that the only thing that matters is size. Last I checked Comic-con was the size of five or six Barstow California's in a city the size of fifty Barstow's in a metro the size of 150 Barstow's. And yet that didn't stop you from comparing it to your local military appreciation parade in another post. So maybe size isn't the whole story after all. In my view you have this whole issue completely backward. I'm perfectly willing to give Amtrak *more* of a pass during periods such as Thanksgiving and the winter solstice holidays simply because there is only so much you can expect when everything and everyone is already spoken for. On the other hand, what _exactly_ is competing with Comic-con for available resources? If you can come up with an answer for that then maybe we'll be getting somewhere.


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## Trogdor (Jul 14, 2012)

The OP cites one example and assumes that must apply to everything. Train 790, like it or not, is such with single level equipment due to the lack of bi-level cars. In fact, there are two single-level sets running right now. Why? Because the cars from one of the regular sets have been redistributed to add capacity to the other sets.

It will probably remain that way through the end of the summer because of Del Mar starting up in a week (oh, that must be impossible because Amtrak never plans for things).

It's summer, aka peak season throughout the system. Cars are assigned to trains right now. You can't defer maintenance on the cars forever, and you don't want to bring your reserves down to absolute zero, in case something does break. Amtrak tried that a few years ago with disastrous results (look up the Warrington years for info).

Could they have added staff on the trains to work the doors? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what their staffing level was like on Thursday. However, many crew bases are short staffed, and if it comes to adding someone to one train to help with doors, or putting them on another train that is short-staffed, then you have to make those choices.

Extra trains can't be added with existing equipment because they require not only extra crews, but also railroad approval which isn't easily forthcoming.

As for food provisions, there's only so much storage space in a Horizon club-dinette. I don't think people realize how limited it is (yet many of the same folks ***** about cafe tables being taken up by "crew junk").

It's not an ideal situation by any means, but it is what it is. That's the passenger rail system we have in this country because nobody wants to pay the cost of something better.

P.S. I like how the OP automatically assumes anyone who knows what's going on is an apologist. Great way to encourage a mature debate.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> The OP cites one example and assumes that must apply to everything. Train 790, like it or not, is such with single level equipment due to the lack of bi-level cars. In fact, there are two single-level sets running right now. Why? Because the cars from one of the regular sets have been redistributed to add capacity to the other sets.
> 
> It will probably remain that way through the end of the summer because of Del Mar starting up in a week (oh, that must be impossible because Amtrak never plans for things).
> 
> ...


Agreed with what you say at the bottom. Is it true though that two of the 7 Surfliner sets are single-level? Doesn't actually sound good to me at all, because you need at least 8 single-levels (including the cafe) to equal the capacity of just a 5-car bilevel, most of which are 6 cars. The only single level set that I've seen has been 5 cars, including the cafe, which means only 3 coaches. it's a mess because only 3 of the doors or so can be opened. Because of the auto doors, larger capacity, and comfort of the bilevels and the fact that generally, there will not be standees on most of these trains, I don't support AT ALL single level sets. To me and most of us out here, they're evil.


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## Joeker (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanksgiving holidays happen every year too. On the busiest travel days ( Wednesday and Sunday) at least in the Midwest and East Amtrak does add extra cars often using commuter agencies equipment. In addition, they do schedule extra runs at the peak hours. Also they make every train ( as most are) reserved only.

Now the Comic-Con planners could have worked with Amtrak or the State of California rail authority to insure that sufficient notice of the anticipated local traffic from LA and and other points could be accommodated. I don't know how many spare sets of equipment was available but if Amtrak did haul all those people to the convention without any extra cars and some tickets may not have been lifted then its the customers gain and Amtrak's pain. Amtrak certainly should share some of the blame because it had the perfect opportunity to showcase its service and equipment with advance planning with the respective convention planners and local commuter agencies.


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## caravanman (Jul 14, 2012)

Hi,

I have never understood myself why Amtrak/Surfliner etc staff only open one or two train doors, in most of the world we are treated as adults, not sheep, who can enter and leave through any available train door without needing the slightest heavy handed supervision.

It might be good if organisers of events co-operated by notifying Amtrak of large crowds, and both then made a joint effort to serve the customers well.

We are rail fans on this site, but encouraging new customers to ride the train by misleading positive, "It's never Amtrak's fault" responses is just as bad as being unjustly negative.

Lets try to be honest and open!

Ed


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## me_little_me (Jul 14, 2012)

I see a lot of heat being generated along with the issues being discussed.

Yes, I think Amtrak could and should have made more of an effort for a known big local event. This would mean additional cars, if available, and additional people. Possibly at one of the stops, have a truck with additional supplies. So why didn't they?

One reason could be that the issue is local. Unlike Thanksgiving which is national and gathers national attention, it is possible that upper level management had no idea what comic-con was or is. Local management may not have cared or decided it wasn't worth the effort for a lot of non-locals. Putting on a "maximum effort" is a strain on both people and resources. Is Amtrak getting additional funds from revenue. After all, more cars mean more comfortable passengers but Amtrak still collects the same ticket revenue whether you stand in the aisles or sit comfortable in an additional car. It is more a matter of public relations than financial gain for them for an annual one-time event.

Are Amtrak people compensated or rewarded for such an above-and-beyond effort? Amtrak's attitude (and railroad union rules) often seem to be at odds with such extra-effort needs. Are there attempts in the midst of snowstorms to "maximum effort" the affected cities? I don't know but my guess is the answer is negative.

Does Amtrak even have plans in place for localized "maximum efforts" so that when they occur unexpectedly or on short notice, they can be pulled out and used?

Has management decided that such events simply overtax people, finances and equipment for a very small ROI? Are they using such events as a bargaining chip? "See, if you gave us more money, we'd be able to handle that!" is often used to get additional resources in any government and industry area.

Possibly some of the Amtrak insiders here can give us more insight. And possibly some of the posters can express their opinions and turn down the heat. It is already too hot this summer.


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## Trogdor (Jul 14, 2012)

To j m, there are nine sets required for Surfliner operation. Normally eight bi-levels and a single level. Right now, it's seven and two. Don't know for sure, but I think they have four regular coaches. Need to double-check.

To caravan, the cars have manual doors and heavy traps that can only be opened from the inside and can injure you if you're not careful. They need to be operated by a crew member.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> To j m, there are nine sets required for Surfliner operation. Normally eight bi-levels and a single level. Right now, it's seven and two. Don't know for sure, but I think they have four regular coaches. Need to double-check.
> 
> To caravan, the cars have manual doors and heavy traps that can only be opened from the inside and can injure you if you're not careful. They need to be operated by a crew member.


Oh ok. Thank you for clarifying. I didn't know that. So with 21 of the bilevels coming to the Surfliner in 2016ish, I assume the single level will be replaced with a set of 7 and all of the others will become 7 or 8 cars? Either that or they remove the Superliners and make all 6 or 7, which is not that big an improvement. I really thought that there were 7, and I wish there were, because that means we can beef up the consists more with the bilevel order.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2012)

At the end of the day, would that not be Amtrak California's (an organization distinct from Amtrak) call to make, being that it is their budget that would have to cover the extra staffing, and of course collect the extra fares too?


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## DesertRat (Jul 14, 2012)

I thougt it was.


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## Paulus (Jul 14, 2012)

DesertRat said:


> Comic Con is nowhere as massive an event as Thanksgiving or the Super Bowl. Can Amtrak really be expected to plan some kind of information about the demand without some kind of input from the planners? Hopefully data mining will provide better service but really should we expect the same level of planning as they do for the holidays (public events that affects the entire national system) or major sporting events (private but affects major city systems including service to nearby cities???)


Consider, however, that Amtrak is a business which, in theory at least, is supposed to make money. Their marketing and management folks should be proactive about this. Saying "Well, ComicCon should have told Amtrak!" is really missing the mark, especially given that Amtrak is under a lot of pressure from Caltrans to make more money and improve their cost recovery (which is barely better than the commuter lines sharing LOSSAN). Marketing should have sat down periodically throughout the year, took note of the major conventions and concerts, and contacted them to highlight Amtrak (even a simple listing of "Or take Amtrak to San Diego Santa Fe and bus/trolley/walk/whatever" in addition to normal driving directions) and then made sure that the best equipment was on hand to deal with expected passenger loads. Instead, they completely dropped the ball on this.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2012)

Paulus said:


> California Cars are indeed owned by Caltrans, but they are used only on San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor. Surfliner cars are different, though built to the same plans (I think with some minor differences, not sure), and are entirely owned by Amtrak along with all the engines.


Amtrak does not own a single Alstom manufactured Surfliner car. Those are all owned by Caltrans.

Surfliner operations are managed by Caltrans with the actual operation of the trains contracted to Amtrak. So any decision involving additional money being spent for special service would be a decision for Caltrans to make as the manager of the service.

The P32-8 and F50PHIs used to power the service are all owned by the State of California too.


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## Trogdor (Jul 14, 2012)

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > California Cars are indeed owned by Caltrans, but they are used only on San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor. Surfliner cars are different, though built to the same plans (I think with some minor differences, not sure), and are entirely owned by Amtrak along with all the engines.
> ...


That is not true. Amtrak does in fact own some of the Surfliner coaches. Also, all of the F59s in Surfliner service are Amtrak. Caltrans owns the CDTX 2000 series engines (Capitol Corridor and San Joaquin), but the Surfliner (and Cascades) engines are all in the AMTK 450-470 series.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 14, 2012)

Amtraks in the business to make money. If you keep turning away 1st time customers do to shoddy service your not wining back any returning riders. Adding a car or 2 would increase revenue cause now more people can ride. this comic con happens every year and amtrak should be smart for once and use the crowds to there advantage. during the 10-10-10 Chicago marathon the wolverine had 7 cars instead of 5 and during the stl gathering the Missouri river runner went from 3 cars to 5 or 6 for the beer fest they had. If amtrak can plain for that then they can plain for comic con or any other cons that come up and try and get more people to ride the train. You can't make money on shunning people away. The platforms can handle 1 extra superliner to the PS trains quit making it harder then it is. If amtrak could find out in advance on what dates the con is going to be held then can adjust the maintenance and fra inspections by having it done sooner so they have a couple extra cars to run.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Paulus said:
> ...


OK I stand corrected regarding the locos. Would you happen to have a list of which Alstom manufactured Surfliner cars exactly are owned by Amtrak? Or are you just talking about the Superliner wreck repaired ones? Note that my statement was only about the Alstom manufactured cars.

So who makes service addition/enhancement decisions for Surfliners? Is it Amtrak or is it Caltrans as the manager of the service, with Amtrak just executing their decision? I think that is the crux of the matter here to determine who would be the one to decide to add cars or staff to the train.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Amtraks in the business to make money. If you keep turning away 1st time customers do to shoddy service your not wining back any returning riders. Adding a car or 2 would increase revenue cause now more people can ride. this comic con happens every year and amtrak should be smart for once and use the crowds to there advantage. during the 10-10-10 Chicago marathon the wolverine had 7 cars instead of 5 and during the stl gathering the Missouri river runner went from 3 cars to 5 or 6 for the beer fest they had. If amtrak can plain for that then they can plain for comic con or any other cons that come up and try and get more people to ride the train. You can't make money on shunning people away. The platforms can handle 1 extra superliner to the PS trains quit making it harder then it is. If amtrak could find out in advance on what dates the con is going to be held then can adjust the maintenance and fra inspections by having it done sooner so they have a couple extra cars to run.


They can handle a lot more than just 1 more car. During the races, there is always 1 set that gets 9 bilevel cars. The consist is

engine

biz class

cafe

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

cafe

biz class

engine

I understand that since the races start in a week they could've just made up that consist a little early, but it does mean that there are basically none in reserve.


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## pldenc44 (Jul 14, 2012)

Wow... I love that the Surfliner was packed... this is great news!

An alternative is to ride Metrolink's rail service to Oceanside, then board the Coaster down to San Diego. They have more frequent trains.

My question is... how did all these people get from the San Diego station (Santa Fe Depot) to the Convention center? The easiest way is to ride the trolley for $2. Was the trolley (run by MTS) able to accommodate the hoards of comic-con people?


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

pldenc44 said:


> Wow... I love that the Surfliner was packed... this is great news!
> 
> An alternative is to ride Metrolink's rail service to Oceanside, then board the Coaster down to San Diego. They have more frequent trains.
> 
> My question is... how did all these people get from the San Diego station (Santa Fe Depot) to the Convention center? The easiest way is to ride the trolley for $2. Was the trolley (run by MTS) able to accommodate the hoards of comic-con people?


The trolley is actually $2.50, but I bet you most people walked.

And Coaster is not more frequent. They have 11 RTs a day. Amtrak has 11. But the Coasters do not operate after the evening rush hour (baseball trains excluded) and so anyody wanting to leave LA after the 5:00ish would be SOL.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 14, 2012)

caravanman said:


> Hi, I have never understood myself why Amtrak/Surfliner etc staff only open one or two train doors, in most of the world we are treated as adults, not sheep, who can enter and leave through any available train door without needing the slightest heavy handed supervision.
> 
> It might be good if organisers of events co-operated by notifying Amtrak of large crowds, and both then made a joint effort to serve the customers well. We are rail fans on this site, but encouraging new customers to ride the train by misleading positive, "It's never Amtrak's fault" responses is just as bad as being unjustly negative. Lets try to be honest and open! Ed


Keep in mind that the doors on American trains are uniquely complicated and dangerous by design.


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## VentureForth (Jul 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> pldenc44 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow... I love that the Surfliner was packed... this is great news!
> ...


Wow. It took 50 posts to even bring up Metrolink and Coaster. California's problem, California's problem to fix.

Here are my observations:

Amtrak should have seen the number of unreserved ticket sales, and in conjunction with statistics from previous years, planned accordingly.

Amtrak should not sell more than 200% (or some other rational number) of unreserved capacity for any given day.

Metrolink and Coaster are just as culpable for not adding capacity, though adding trains could be a problem with the track owners. However, if Metrolink stops running after 5 pm, those trainsets should be available for lease from Amtrak. SOMEONE can make SOME arrangement with SOMEONE. Quite frankly, I don't know why Metrolink and Coaster don't partner up. Their capacity is much higher, and it would be nothing but a thing to get 10-car trains running back and forth. This is really a California & San Diego Visitors and Connections Bureau issue. They are the ones who should be doing the negotiating, with the host railroads, Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, the City, etc.

Finally, after growing up in Japan and riding extremely crowded trains daily for three years, I can tell you that I don't have a lot of sympathy for folks getting

.


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## trainfan969 (Jul 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I believe one of the chief differences between the northern corridor cars and the southern (Surfliner) cars are that in the Surfliner, or second, batch, all of the cafe's have the cafe itself on the bottom. The first batch had them on top. Not many other differences. I know that there aren't any upstairs cafes on the PacSurf, but I'm not sure either of whether there are any downstairs cafes on the Cap and the SJ. While I believe that almost all of the California Cars in general are Caltrans-owned, I will not make this statement without admitting I don't know so as not to be ridiculed. I do not one bit consider myself an Amtrak apologist, but these people here are going through what MANY go through every day on 784 and 785, and I don't hear so many complaints about those trains being thrown around. If the 7:30 was that bad though, I can't possibly seem to fathom how it must have been on 784. At least it was bilevel, but geez. Seriously though, there is not that much equip to spare at all.


Well Johnny you you are spot on with your assessment. As a regular on the 785/589 I see standing room conditions very often. Actually its been that way almost EVERY Friday for as long as I've been riding. I have heard many angry people complaining but that's the way it goes. You can take the train or wait for the next one. Some days the train is so packed and overbooked, some Biz Class people were relocated to the Cafe car. Another time it was packed like a sardine can that I estimated 30 people standing on the first floor of the cafe all the way to LAX with 10-15 sitting on the floor or luggage by the door.

I talk to the crew frequently and they have said they spoke to their managers about more equipment and more conductors. Sometimes they have 1 conductor and 2 assist. conductors and they alone have trouble handling the crowds. Do they get what is requested? Very rarely and if they do, it takes a long time (blame management not the grunts).

Since the Surfliner is managed by CalTrans, its pretty much their call, as additional crews cost money. Its not very hard to get extra crew especially at LA. Who's going to pay for that? Amtrak or CalTrans. Since the state budget is all wacky, I guess nobody want to be blamed for spending too much.

However since it says Amtrak on the side, they will always be a puncihng bag whatever is wrong, whether its their fault or not. Also CalTrans from time to time has their managers/reps ride the train to see the conditions for themselves. I rarely see any changes after their visits. However when the CalTrans people come to hand out surveys, I always fill them out with the comment "add more equipment!!!". Do we know that Amtrak approached CalTrans for adding more runs, crews or equipment? Who knows.

*Equipment *

According to the Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan there are 49 Surfliner cars, 39 owned by Amtrak and 10 owned by the state of CA.

I'm sure if there was spare equipment sitting around unused, the yard could add them to existing trainsets. Really there's not much if any spare equipment sitting at the LA yard awaiting their next assignment. There is a MAJOR shortage of equipment right now. They are short cars (OOS for repairs or maintenance) and locomotives. I'm sure they can "borrow" Superliners from the SL but they would have to be returned before the SL leaves, not an ideal situation. Since its the summer travel season. I doubt other yards have spare cars or they would be here right now.

Trains that come to LA are serviced then sent to its next assignment. One time the equipment situation was so dire that we had a Sightseer Lounge and a CCC substituted when the Cafe cars broke. Heard they "borrowed" them off the Chief. Then some equipment does get sent out for repair/refurbishment at Beech Groove. It happens frequently during the summer in anticipation of the Thanksgiving holiday. If cars are refurbished they return, all ready to go except the yard crews have to install the seats!!! Hmmmm service the cars or install seats? Won't be the first time it happened.

Someone mentioned leasing equipment from other agencies. I'm sure under extenuating circumstances Amtrak could borrow/lease/rent a set of equipment from Metrolink (SCRRA). Its happened before and I remember riding a Amtrak train using Metrolink equipment. However since Metrolink is commuter rail, I doubt they have a spare set sitting around and that its morning on a weekday that they have a set sitting around.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Jul 14, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Amtrak should not sell more than 200% (or some other rational number) of unreserved capacity for any given day.


That's not possible to do with the way Amtrak does unreserved service. Unreserved tickets are not date/train specific. They are valid on any unreserved train in either direction within the validity period of the ticket (which is often up to one year from the date of the ticket sale).


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## trainfan969 (Jul 14, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Wow. It took 50 posts to even bring up Metrolink and Coaster. California's problem, California's problem to fix.


Yup, its the states problem.



> Metrolink and Coaster are just as culpable for not adding capacity, though adding trains could be a problem with the track owners. However, if Metrolink stops running after 5 pm, those trainsets should be available for lease from Amtrak. SOMEONE can make SOME arrangement with SOMEONE. Quite frankly, I don't know why Metrolink and Coaster don't partner up. Their capacity is much higher, and it would be nothing but a thing to get 10-car trains running back and forth. This is really a California & San Diego Visitors and Connections Bureau issue. They are the ones who should be doing the negotiating, with the host railroads, Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, the City, etc.
> Finally, after growing up in Japan and riding extremely crowded trains daily for three years, I can tell you that I don't have a lot of sympathy for folks getting



I'm sure Metrolink can loan equipment or make additional runs to Orange County. Question is, who wants to pay for it? There is already a measly Metrolink schedule on the Orange County line. Metrolink will gladly run more trains, does the Orange County Transportation Authority want to pay for it? Nothing comes for free.

Also not all trains that call at LAX are done for the day. Most come into LAX to drop off and then pick up new passengers for a different route. Its not there is equipment sitting at LAX with noting to do.

10 car trains? The conductor would need to double spot the trainset at almost every stop. It would be very inefficient and time consuming to do. The longest Metrolink consist is 6 cars and that is max that _some_ stations in Orange County can handle.

I have not seen any advertising for taking Amtrak to SD or even for the event itself. I'm sure those who go each year are aware of it but not the general public.


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## AlanB (Jul 14, 2012)

trainfan969 said:


> According to the Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan there are 49 Surfliner cars, 39 owned by Amtrak and 10 owned by the state of CA.


Correct! Here is the breakdown of the last order of cars by California, and where they went.


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## AlanB (Jul 14, 2012)

I do understand, as noted by others, that it does say Amtrak on the side of the train and on the ticket. But the simple reality is that Caltrans controls everything, right down the menu in the cafe car; not Amtrak.

Amtrak cannot:

1) Decide to add extra cars

2) Add extra crew

3) Put coach attendants on the trains, something that they do not currently have

4) Run extra trains

5) Decide to go to reserved seating, from the normal unreserved

6) Raise prices

7) Change the menu

Without permission from Caltrans.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 14, 2012)

OK, we've successfully managed to push yet another complaint off of Amtrak and onto another agency.

Amtrak: 1 Solutions: 0


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## AlanB (Jul 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> OK, we've successfully managed to push yet another complaint off of Amtrak and onto another agency.
> 
> Amtrak: 1 Solutions: 0


Well then, what do you propose?

Amtrak can't add cars without Caltran's permission. Caltrans won't pay the bill if Amtrak does it without permission. And Amtrak cannot incur debt on State sponsored trains anymore. So what's the solution. Amtrak managers show up at Caltrans with guns and hold them hostage until they agree to pay for extra cars?

It's not a matter of trying to pass blame. It's reality! Short of pleading with Caltrans, Amtrak cannot fix the problem that the OP encountered.


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## Mackensen (Jul 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> OK, we've successfully managed to push yet another complaint off of Amtrak and onto another agency.
> 
> Amtrak: 1 Solutions: 0


I'm sorry, you're right. Here, I'll provide a solution: Amtrak and the state of California should buy another hundred cars from a manufacturer that doesn't exist with money they don't have. They should then double service frequencies buy double-tracking the Surf Line with more money they don't have, and use eminent domain to blow up the parts of San Clemente that stand in the way. Also, the last sixty years of transportation policy in this country should be reversed overnight by a pro-rail pro-infrastructure Congress.

This is an Amtrak forum. Says so across the top. The guest, who is long gone and wasn't interested in a constructive discussion anyway, had a problem with service under the fiduciary control of the state of California and not Amtrak.

What's your solution?


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## Paulus (Jul 14, 2012)

Question: Why the assumption that permission would not easily be forthcoming for such, especially if it was expected to be revenue positive? It's fine to blame Caltrans if they refused permission; if Amtrak never even sought permission, the blame still lies upon them.



VentureForth said:


> Metrolink and Coaster are just as culpable for not adding capacity, though adding trains could be a problem with the track owners. However, if Metrolink stops running after 5 pm, those trainsets should be available for lease from Amtrak. SOMEONE can make SOME arrangement with SOMEONE. Quite frankly, I don't know why Metrolink and Coaster don't partner up. Their capacity is much higher, and it would be nothing but a thing to get 10-car trains running back and forth.


Metrolink and Coaster have been working on doing some some joint trains (though it does appear that the agencies will remain separate). In addition to having more timed connections at Oceanside, there should be some LA-SD commuter trains later this year or early next year. That will likely suck up a lot of riders who are currently taking Amtrak between Irvine and Solano Beach.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm not disputing that there are many limitations and barriers that make nimble use of our perpetually limited resources rather difficult. That being said this does seem like it should be a solvable solution, even though the solution may not be as obvious as originally envisioned. I am not an expert on California's passenger rail systems. However, I _have_ seen numerous other systems that did not suffer the long lived ambiguity and malaise that our own mass transit systems do. How about we start with Amtrak making a formal request to Caltrans. If they already have and Caltrans is unable or unwilling to allocate additional resources due to lack of funding or whatever then perhaps Amtrak can include that information as part of their apology address. Although this change will not directly resolve the primary complaint it will at least inform the passengers that this issue is not being ignored on purpose and will let them decide if they want to do anything about it the next time they have a chance to vote on a proposition affecting mass transit funding or to vote out an anti-rail budget hawk. As for the delay in boarding and disembarking is there really no way to speed it up? If the doors can truly only be opened from the inside isn't that some sort of safety issue? Maybe I'm just naive, but I'm not quite ready to admit permanent defeat on this one.


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## guest in the west (Jul 14, 2012)

Mackensen said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > OK, we've successfully managed to push yet another complaint off of Amtrak and onto another agency.
> ...


Oh I'm still here, Mr. Mackensen, so please leave an characterization of my motives out of your grab-bag of generalizations, please.  I have been reading with great interest all the replies, from the usual Amtrak apologists (who admittedly span a spectrum from Amtrak-never-wrong to more reasonable types) and those more impatient with self-inflicted wounds.

For your information, I have been riding the LA-San Diego route at least twice weekly for 36 years, from the time it was called the San Diegan and there were three trips daily in each direction, with two Amfleet I cars connected with a snack car/lounge.

In that length of time--three and a half decades-- the number of instances when either Amtrak or Caltrans showed marketing nimbleness on ANY matter can be counted on the fingers of one hand. And I know enough about this line, and about Caltrans in general, to accept the argument that Amtrak is just putty in the hands of Caltrans. Nonsense. They work together all the time, they argue with each other a lot of the time, but the service at the end of the day is a shared responsibility.

But to the bottom-line point: If Amtrak/Caltrans knows of a regular-occurring spike in demand, even if it is only for one or two trains, then there is plenty of time to react--assuming that the managers are thinking like those in private enterprise. Of course there are assistant conductors on the extraboard who could be placed on certain trains, and enough who want and need the extra cash. Of course the cafe car could be stocked with extra provisions (the stories abound from cafe car attendants about the many, many times that the cars go out not provisioned with a third or more of the listed menu items, just because someone forgot or was lazy or whatever). Of course a service manager in LA could be stationed at in the tunnel where the ramps run up to the trains, explaining (and perhaps even apologizing in advance) for what will be a standing-room-only train.

None of this is brain surgery. It requires a little planning, some imagination, creative marketing and a willingness to think outside the government box that too many Amtrak (and for that matter, Caltrans administrators) feel comfortable remaining in.

Again, where I probably erred grievously, and have been doing so for 36 years now, is assuming that government agencies or quasi-government agencies are able to think creatively like private business, because they're going to get paid anyways.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

Paulus said:


> Question: Why the assumption that permission would not easily be forthcoming for such, especially if it was expected to be revenue positive? It's fine to blame Caltrans if they refused permission; if Amtrak never even sought permission, the blame still lies upon them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I sure hope not. That would kill Amtrak. If that happens, I would actually love to see Amtrak take the SCRRA and NCTD to court to fight against through trains. It would murder Amtrak California and the Surfliner patronage. I'm perfectly fine with timed transfers that cost less, and I know I'll hear blowback from people about the court money but seriously it wouldn't be more than they would lose over the long term. I'm fine with what Metrolink did last year, running a 10 car train down the OC Line to SOlana Beach on the weekends for the races. The downside was that they parked on Track 2 all day and that made a few trains wait, but it's not a big deal. I'm sure that they must have paid NCTD something for that. The RT price from anywhere (LA, Fullerton, Anaheim, etc. all the way to OSD) down to Solana was $28, which is one dollar less than a one-way ticket on Amtrak LAX-SOL! I was almost tempted to just cancel my Amtrak ticket and buy a Metrolink to SOL, then not get back on for the next part of the RT. Anyway, I WILL murder if Metrolink starts taking more of Amtrak California's precious money.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 14, 2012)

trainfan969 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > I believe one of the chief differences between the northern corridor cars and the southern (Surfliner) cars are that in the Surfliner, or second, batch, all of the cafe's have the cafe itself on the bottom. The first batch had them on top. Not many other differences. I know that there aren't any upstairs cafes on the PacSurf, but I'm not sure either of whether there are any downstairs cafes on the Cap and the SJ. While I believe that almost all of the California Cars in general are Caltrans-owned, I will not make this statement without admitting I don't know so as not to be ridiculed. I do not one bit consider myself an Amtrak apologist, but these people here are going through what MANY go through every day on 784 and 785, and I don't hear so many complaints about those trains being thrown around. If the 7:30 was that bad though, I can't possibly seem to fathom how it must have been on 784. At least it was bilevel, but geez. Seriously though, there is not that much equip to spare at all.
> ...


Cool. That makes a lot of sense. That means for the 8 sets that SHOULD be Surfliner, there would be about 4-5 owned by Amtrak (biz class, cafe, bag-coach, then one or two other coaches) and 1 for each set of a CA-owned refurbed Superliner coach. Meaning all 5 or 6 car trains, which is what we have. Even though there might be two single levels going around, I sure have not seen a beef up in consist.


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## PaulM (Jul 14, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> This forum seems pretty well divided into two groups: those who like riding on trains - for all their shortcomings - and those that mostly complain about them.


You don't really believe that do you? Even when the topic is a snafu, the range of responses is a lot more sophisticated than that.


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## Paulus (Jul 15, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I sure hope not. That would kill Amtrak. If that happens, I would actually love to see Amtrak take the SCRRA and NCTD to court to fight against through trains. It would murder Amtrak California and the Surfliner patronage.


I'm not sure that it would really kill Surfliner ridership; it would be about a 3.5 hour trip on quite uncomfortable seats to go LA-SD. It's that intermediate area that will have a lot of ridership lost, but that's not too terrible.

Anyhow, Amtrak has no grounds for a lawsuit and would most likely be booted out of the Surfliner if they tried suing. They are a contracted operator, hired by the state (but soon by a LOSSAN group similar to CCJPA). Word is that they're already in a bad odor with the various agencies as it is.


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## AlanB (Jul 15, 2012)

Paulus said:


> Question: Why the assumption that permission would not easily be forthcoming for such, especially if it was expected to be revenue positive? It's fine to blame Caltrans if they refused permission; if Amtrak never even sought permission, the blame still lies upon them.


We don't know if it would have been revenue positive, unless of course you just mean increased revenue. But we don't know if they would have covered the extra expenses of adding cars & more personnel. And remember, it's not just a one way trip. Those cars & personnel have to return back to the starting point, and will be mostly unused. Yes, if they had a few extra trainsets, then maybe they could have parked the extended consist until the return trip for the crowd. But I don't think that they have that luxury.

We also have no idea if Amtrak was even aware of the convention, but certainly one would figure that the State should have been aware of it. We also don't know that if indeed Amtrak was somehow aware, that they didn't ask for permission.


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## AlanB (Jul 15, 2012)

guest in the west said:


> In that length of time--three and a half decades-- the number of instances when either Amtrak or Caltrans showed marketing nimbleness on ANY matter can be counted on the fingers of one hand.


Yes, there are times that Amtrak doesn't respond with nimbleness, but there are also times that it does manage to do so. Which is why I for one at least question if they even knew about this. But Amtrak adds stops for state fairs in some states. They run extra cars on the Missouri River Runner for special events. In fact, the members of this forum who attended the Gathering in St. Louis got to see this first hand. Between our group booking close to 40 seats on the train to Kansas City and back, plus a major event in a local town along the way, they added a car to this train to handle the load.

They also made sure to load extra food onto the train, and even sent down a supervisor from Chicago to St. Louis to help out in the cafe car that day.

So while I'm not going to promise that they always manage to respond to special things, if they have enough warning and if they can free up equipment, they do try. I've seen it first hand.



guest in the west said:


> And I know enough about this line, and about Caltrans in general, to accept the argument that Amtrak is just putty in the hands of Caltrans. Nonsense. They work together all the time, they argue with each other a lot of the time, but the service at the end of the day is a shared responsibility.


They may work together, but when it comes to increasing costs by adding cars & personnel, that's all on Caltrans.



guest in the west said:


> Of course there are assistant conductors on the extraboard who could be placed on certain trains, and enough who want and need the extra cash.


Yes, there are always extras on the extra board. But it's not quite that simple. First, they have to be fully rested under FRA rules in order to be called to work. Second, you can't just grab everyone off the extra board for something like this, because if you do that and then someone goes out sick, you now have an entire train that cannot run.

Are the odds good that they could have found someone on the extra board? Absolutely! But I just want you to be aware that it's not as simple as just picking a name on the list and calling them in. There are other considerations that must be dealt with!



guest in the west said:


> Of course the cafe car could be stocked with extra provisions (the stories abound from cafe car attendants about the many, many times that the cars go out not provisioned with a third or more of the listed menu items, just because someone forgot or was lazy or whatever).


Save the failure of a vendor to deliver some item(s) to the commissary, this is unacceptable!

That said, at least in the distant past here on the NEC, there were LSA's in the cafe who claimed that they didn't have something because they didn't want to be bothered preparing that item. Not sure if that's part of what you're seeing out there or not. Hopefully not; but I sure won't hold my breath either.



guest in the west said:


> Of course a service manager in LA could be stationed at in the tunnel where the ramps run up to the trains, explaining (and perhaps even apologizing in advance) for what will be a standing-room-only train.


While a nice touch, I suspect that one manager would have been totally overwhelmed by the crowds you describe and would have been lucky to speak to even 20% of the people riding.



guest in the west said:


> None of this is brain surgery. It requires a little planning, some imagination, creative marketing and a willingness to think outside the government box that too many Amtrak (and for that matter, Caltrans administrators) feel comfortable remaining in.


I can't speak at all for Caltrans. But of late, Amtrak has been trying to change that culture and to do a better job of thinking outside the box. Could they be improving faster? Sure! Thinking further outside the box? Sure! Heck, even getting a bigger box to think outside of would be good. But it's also not easy to change things and you can't just fire everyone and start over without creating another disaster.

But again, they are trying! Even if things are coming slower than many of us would prefer.



guest in the west said:


> Again, where I probably erred grievously, and have been doing so for 36 years now, is assuming that government agencies or quasi-government agencies are able to think creatively like private business, because they're going to get paid anyways.


It's a tough thing to overcome!


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## Anderson (Jul 15, 2012)

Just looking at this, it seems that the flaw is that Amtrak and Caltrans don't have a "contingency budget" in place to allow fixes for something like this. In an ideal world, the Caltrans Amtrak budget would include a few hundred thousand extra dollars to cover the capital and fuel charges associated with incidental equipment additions, either for something like this or in the event of (for example) major highway-closing construction or a washout so that they don't have to rehash things every time an opportunity like this comes up.

It wouldn't necessarily even be hard to structure it whereby it is an occasional appropriation of $1-2 million that is replenished by excess ridership on those trains (i.e. above and beyond some measure of normal ridership or normal capacity) up to the "fill level" with the rest accruing to Caltrans' net payment. Mind you, I think this would only rarely cover an extra trainset...but it could certainly cover a few spare cars for a few weekends.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 15, 2012)

Perhaps the better strategy is to have few Metrolink and Coaster trains run all the way to San Diego and LA respectively. Just two or three trains for the day.


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## trainfan969 (Jul 15, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Perhaps the better strategy is to have few Metrolink and Coaster trains run all the way to San Diego and LA respectively. Just two or three trains for the day.


If Metrolink and if the North County Transit District want to do that, they sure can. There isn't much Metrolink trains to Oceanside outside of the commute hours. If there were to be more trains, someone has to pay for it.

Then you have Amtrak and CalTrans who could throw a roadblock to this arrangement.


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## VentureForth (Jul 15, 2012)

It sounds like a sold out, SRO train would pay for it. The notion that trains can't make money its based on relatively low ridership coupled with extraordinary high overhead costs. When an extra train is set out with presumably locally available crew and equipment, the revenue to sell that train out should pay for the extra effort.


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## jis (Jul 15, 2012)

AlanB said:


> trainfan969 said:
> 
> 
> > According to the Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan there are 49 Surfliner cars, 39 owned by Amtrak and 10 owned by the state of CA.
> ...


AH OK. I stand corrected again.

The main point I was making is made eloquently by Alan in a later message, that Amtrak is not the business decision maker for this service. It is CalTrans. So beating up on Amtrak is not going to change one single thing regarding whether cars are added to trains or not.

BTW, it looks like currently the following trains are running with single level equipment: 761, 1761, 790, 1790, 599, 565, 572, and 583


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## guest in the west (Jul 15, 2012)

AlanB said:


> guest in the west said:
> 
> 
> > In that length of time--three and a half decades-- the number of instances when either Amtrak or Caltrans showed marketing nimbleness on ANY matter can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
> ...


You make many good points.

But 36 years is a lot of time for Amtrak to get a well-traveled line to a high, consistent level of quality. (And plenty of time for Caltrans as well, which became involved in 1978.)

I can't recall every paper survey asking about the San Diegan's nee Surfliner's pros and cons that I have filled out in my years of riding the line. I've talked four times over the years with Surfliner managers who, by chance, were aboard as observers on the same train that I was riding.

The tortoise-like progress makes for a lot of frustration on the part of riders and for much lost opportunity on the part of Amtrak/Caltrans.

I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.


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## guest in the west (Jul 15, 2012)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > trainfan969 said:
> ...


That's correct, and from what the conductors say, will last through the end of the Del Mar Racetrack season in September.

For those not familiar with the train consist numbers, the single-level trains are the early-morning LA to SLO run, the eight-hour-plus afternoon SLO to SAN run, the 7:05 a.m weekend SD to LA run, the 7:07 a.m. weekday express run from SD to LA, the 2:40 p.m. SD to LA run and the 11:10 a.m. LA to SD run.


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## rrdude (Jul 15, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I'm not apologizing for Amtrak, but take these factors into account before you blame Amtrak;
> 
> 
> The Surfliner is unreserved, meaning you can take any train. This does result in SRO conditions on certain trains at certain times. So do you put extra cars and crew on this train or the next one - and then people chose the next one, and you say "why not ad to that train"?
> ...


Dave, although your facts are correct, you "sound" A LOT like an apologist when reading this quote. For Amtrak NOT to take advantage of this, or at least acknowledge it, is just plain lame.


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## Ryan (Jul 15, 2012)

guest in the west said:


> I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.


I'd take that bet, but I'd be interested in hearing what improvements you'd make with no extra resources.


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## The Chief (Jul 15, 2012)

Sounds like they could have used a *Silver SurferLiner*,,,

Props to *Mackensen* for using the verb _conflate_ in his apology post.

Diversified *AU* forum viewpoints, complaints, suggestions, etc. on this problem may catch the eye(s) of *Amtrak* and *Caltrans* staffers, who employ ether media, to plan better.

BTW, first-time rider demographic of Comi-Con customer _probably_ would be a repeat rider after an initial good trip. That means a long-term revenue increase potential is at stake.


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## guest in the west (Jul 15, 2012)

Ryan said:


> guest in the west said:
> 
> 
> > I like to fantasize about what an operation like Southwest Airlines could do with Amtrak, just as Amtrak exists today with no more money or equipment. I would wager that somehow the management of Southwest could get a lot more out of the existing product--and in a positive way.
> ...


I'll give you two improvements right off the bat:

1. Southwest is known for its consistency of service. I have no doubt that Southwest has the management know-how and people skills to improve Amtrak's consistency of service. So you don't have one server on the Acela passing out the expected warm towels and another server deciding that he/she can't be bothered to do so on a particular trip. So you don't have the cafe car well-stocked on one run, and bereft of having half the menu items from the get-go on other runs (which has happened to me on the Surfliner, on the Adironack, on the River Runner and on the Capitol Corridor, to name four examples.) So you don't have station announcements being made on time and with full information on one run, and station announcements barely intelligible on another. So the SCA on one LD trip is available, friendly and productive in fulfilling the expectations of the sleeping car passenger paying high prices for first-class service, and the SCA non-existent, surly and producing the bare minimum on the next trip. So that a business car attendant on one Surfliner goes through the entire train picking up trash so that the turn-around at the terminus will go faster and smoother and result in a cleaner train for the next passengers, and the business car attendant on the next Surfliner fails to get out of the BC car at all. I don't believe such improvements would require Congressional appropriations.

2. Southwest is consistently up-front with passengers about delays and goes the extra mile in arranging alternatives in emergencies. Its employees are coached to sympathize with passengers, which helps curb a lot of the anger that otherwise is inevitable when delays occur.

The consistency is a result of good management, which realizes that the future of its company depends on well-trained, motivated employees. I have no doubt at all that Southwest would improve Amtrak's record in this area.

Let's be honest. There are differences from one company to another in how their employees are trained and how they treat customers. That's why some companies flourish and others in the same business barely survive. Southwest goes the extra mile today where most other airlines these days do not (and makes enough money so it doesn't have to levy outrageous bag check, seat reservation and other petty charges that other carriers require today in order to stay in business).

I'd love to see Amtrak in the rung of companies near or at the top when ranked by their customers. Sure, equipment issues are at the root of many Amtrak problems. But when a SCA goes out of her way to provide cardboard and duct tape for a balky bedroom air vent, that goes a LONG way toward minimizing (and with our actual trip last month, totally eliminating) that problem any sort of reason not to patronize Amtrak in the future or think less of the system and its employees. That's just another example of how you can improve things without throwing up your hands and bemoaning the lack of money. The Surfliner route, for example, has had a lot of additional revenue thrown its way over the years I have been riding it, but the overall level of surface has not been commensurate with the increased amount of money.

Hope that provides you with some food for thought.


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## Mackensen (Jul 15, 2012)

Just a quick note, apparently a locomotive shortage led to the Coast Starlight getting stranded on a grade in Northern California. See http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/49196-stalled-1414/.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 15, 2012)

Another brief note. A poster over on trainorders reported a "long surfliner" with 11 coaches departing LA at 11 am on Friday.


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## Nathanael (Jul 15, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Truth hurts, right?


Yes, it does. That must be why you whine so hard to deny the truth.



> With just some simple coordination, Amtrak could have added a few cars to the trains that day.


False. First of all, Amtrak didn't have any extra cars. On Thanksgiving they borrow cars from commuter railroads, because the commuter railroads run fewer cars on Thanksgiving.

The commuter railroads *don't* run fewer cars for Comic-Con... so there's nothing to borrow.

Where are you gonna buy some extra railroad cars? Being kept on a starvation budget for 40 years does prevent some things which would otherwise seem "obvious".

Amtrak has a certain number of spare Horizons and Amfleets, but moving them from the Midwest to San Diego for Comic-Con and back would probably cost more than the added revenue from running them.

The California fleet is being used pretty much flat out, with the number needing urgent repairs increasing as time goes on.

And the Surfliner route is primarily the responsibility of the State of California. So if someone should be buying extra cars, it's the State of California.

Who absolutely should have bought extra cars long ago, yes. Better late than never, though, they're buying some now.


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## LarryG (Jul 16, 2012)

I think the problem here isn't so much whose fault it is, but how the general public views it. Whether or not Amtrak or California or someone else was responsible, Amtrak is the public face, and they'll take the backlash from customers. You only get 1 chance to make a first impression and if someone who chose to ride Amtrak to Comicon was forced to stand for a long trip in very unpleasant conditions, they'd be less likely to ride the train again. Most people in that situation aren't going to investigate to see if their anger should be directed at Amtrak or Comicon or California, for them it was the Amtrak part of their experience that was lacking.

Or another example, I was taking the LSL to a job interview in Springfield, MA. This was the same day as a large Comicon type convention in Boston, and the train was filled. On top of that, equipment malfunctions forced a couple of cars to be removed in Chicago and the resulting overflow of people had to either stand or sit in the cafe car (especially after Albany when the relatively empty NYC bound cars were taken off). It was a complex set of events, some of which couldn't be planned for. But around Albany, I was forced to change my seat because of reservation problems and the number of people, and I didn't really need that stress before a job interview. The next time I'm in a similar situation, I'll just fly to New Haven. And I imagine people going to the Boston convention might think about flying into Boston as well.

People can argue about the true cause of the problems that customers had, and if Amtrak deserves the blame, but at the end of the day, customers will be upset at Amtrak for a level of service below their expectations.


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## afigg (Jul 16, 2012)

Maybe the people who went to the San Diego Comic Con were not bothered by the packed train because it was just a preview of what to expect at the convention. Came across a headline on the dcist.com blog site linking to this story about "Did The Game Of Thrones Panel Have Comic-Con's Most Insanely Long Line?".

The article claims that the line stretched for at least a mile from the convention center to get in. Half of the people in the line were not expected to to be able to get in. Why didn't those running the convention add extra space and buildings to handle the expected crowd size? If it was this bad, obviously no one will go back to the Comic Con next year!


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## VentureForth (Jul 16, 2012)

Hold Comic-Con in VEGAS next year!


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## jis (Jul 16, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Hold Comic-Con in VEGAS next year!


That way we won't need to have pages of discussion about it on AU


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## Ryan (Jul 16, 2012)

The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 16, 2012)

Ryan said:


> The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.


nahhh... as much as they want it to look bigger every year, it's not. It definitely could be, but it's not. The problem is that the convention is so popular that the 3-day passes and Saturday passes are sold out in the first 30 minutes starting in February. They could easily attract 2,000,000 (no exaggeration) over the few days if there were not restrictions on how many can attend. Even though our convention center was expanded a few years ago, solely for this convention, it could be 10 times larger. The crowds themselves have not gotten any larger, but they continue to attract more and more celebs and important vendors, making it more prominent in the national spotlight.


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## Trogdor (Jul 16, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The news coverage of this event seemed to indicate that the crowds this year were significantly larger than previous years.
> ...


Given that it's a comic con, could it be that the crowds were larger not because there were more people, but because the people, themselves, are significantly larger than in previous years?

Worst. Joke. Ever.


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## Chicago Guest (Jul 16, 2012)

Though the comments about moving ComicCon to Vegas may have been a joke, they are really telling in regards to this specific problem. Though Thanksgiving travel will happen annually, despite what's been said in this thread, ComicCon travel to San Diego every year is not guaranteed at all. Sure, the event has become so big that it will happen, but if the organizers continue to negotiate location on a year to year basis, planning is a nightmare for all in involved and extra investment a potential waste.


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## choochoochooseme (Jul 16, 2012)

this issue is nothing new but terrible press for amtrak. passengers waiting to board the last train out of dodge last night suffered anxiety/panic attacks/crying upon fearing they couldn't board. i don't blame them; the night before overbooking happened to me so i rode my bike around the gaslamp until the first train at dawn -- talk about pee wee's big adventure!

once onboard the trip north was pretty much like every other sunday after the con -- SRO and exhausted people. i was one of several disabled on board to fight for a seat after the conductor instructed passengers to "just take them as there are no disabled riders this late" (tell that to the post-surgery grandmother who boarded at solana in horror). people were sprawled on the floor, the aisle, the stairwells, on luggage. real zombies! but my issue is that although i was not disabled then this was not my first year in that hell.

but as the drive to the con became something reminiscent of the thanksgiving socal commute it's the lesser evil.

to play devil's advocate though wasn't this amtrak's fault for dropping the train inbetween? plus i saw spare cars in the yard just last week; they needed them. though there has been some turnover lately some of the agents have been around long enough to know just how massive the con for the PS.

wholly agree with PP that metrolink + coaster should join forces. the coaster does not run enough trains on weekends but when i see ridership or lack thereof i understand why; san diego is car culture through-and-through like it or not.

also agree with the issue opening all the train doors. way to make the disabled and people overloaded with toys struggle.

re: MTA in my experience the trolley on a slow day accommodates con passengers seamlessly although, yes, many board sans fare.

every week or so i tell myself that i'm going to boycott amtrak because of constant bike woes (sister metrolink gets a pass here) and extreme poor customer service but both are topics for another post.


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## haolerider (Jul 16, 2012)

choochoochooseme said:


> this issue is nothing new but terrible press for amtrak. passengers waiting to board the last train out of dodge last night suffered anxiety/panic attacks/crying upon fearing they couldn't board. i don't blame them; the night before overbooking happened to me so i rode my bike around the gaslamp until the first train at dawn -- talk about pee wee's big adventure!
> 
> once onboard the trip north was pretty much like every other sunday after the con -- SRO and exhausted people. i was one of several disabled on board to fight for a seat after the conductor instructed passengers to "just take them as there are no disabled riders this late" (tell that to the post-surgery grandmother who boarded at solana in horror). people were sprawled on the floor, the aisle, the stairwells, on luggage. real zombies! but my issue is that although i was not disabled then this was not my first year in that hell.
> 
> ...


After reading most of this thread , I have to say that the local Amtrak Marketing group dropped the ball on this. If this is a yearly event, it is really the responsibility of Marketing to know the local market and work with the operations group to be sure there is adequate equipment for the event. Operations is not responsible for monitoring conventions, meetings, etc and Marketing is! Now, they may have alerted ops and someone dropped the ball, but it certainly did not look good for Amtrak.....no matter who owns the equipment.


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## hmy1 (Jul 16, 2012)

After having read the posts in this thread, I thought I'd chime in with my comments:

Sounds like a perfect storm occurred on the OP's train last Thursday. With the January schedule change that eliminated the 798/799, the dreaded single-level trainset can appear on a run south of LAX. And with the addition of a second single-level trainset in preparation for the Del Mar race season (which starts this Wednesday 7/18), you are more likely to encounter one. Less capacity, manual doors, steps to climb, etc. make the experience much worse compared to a regular Surfliner trainset. Understaffing a train with manual doors didn't help, either.

Comic-con draws over 120,000 visitors over four days, not 20,000 as somebody previously stated. That's a lot of people, and many of them are coming down from LA, the entertainment capital. Comi-con recently committed to staying in San Diego until at least 2015, so this is an event that can definitely be planned for, if desired. I challenge Amtrak California to do so. They've tried to address the capacity issues surround the Del Mar race track, although I am not a regular enough rider to witness how effective it is. One difference is that the race season is two months whereas Comic-con is one weekend.

Bottom line is: This was a very negative experience for riders. For first time riders, it was probably their last time, too.


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## guest--on the Pacific (Jul 16, 2012)

hmy1 said:


> After having read the posts in this thread, I thought I'd chime in with my comments:
> 
> Sounds like a perfect storm occurred on the OP's train last Thursday. With the January schedule change that eliminated the 798/799, the dreaded single-level trainset can appear on a run south of LAX. And with the addition of a second single-level trainset in preparation for the Del Mar race season (which starts this Wednesday 7/18), you are more likely to encounter one. Less capacity, manual doors, steps to climb, etc. make the experience much worse compared to a regular Surfliner trainset. Understaffing a train with manual doors didn't help, either.
> 
> ...


You and the OP responding to Ryan make very good points.


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## guest (Jul 17, 2012)

guest in the west said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > guest in the west said:
> ...


Interesting points. I find this same maddening inconsistency riding the NEC all the time! So I would agree with you that a lot of the problem with the public perception is not money but the attitudes and professionalism of a lot of employees.


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## R30A (Jul 17, 2012)

I think this thread is a prime example of railfan bickering.

There are three elements at play here-

1- The people complaining that Amtrak did not plan ahead for a forseeable event who are going on about Amtrak's ineptness.

2- The people complaining about the prior group, pointing out that Amtrak cannot forsee everything and might not have the capacity to deal with the event.

3- Amtrak, which despite the claims and statements of the prior two groups, substantially expanded capacity in preparation for the event which is occurring.

Why does everyone ignore element 3? Everyone seems to be ignoring the mentions of this made here. There were two single level sets running prior to racing season.(which is when the second set usually comes IINM) There have been trains nearly twice as long as normal spotted and photographed last weekend. I understand if we don't pick up on everything Amtrak does which is worthy of commendation, but can we at least complain about the things Amtrak actually is missing out on? I am sure other people understand my frustration here. When Amtrak hits a home run, we complain about them dropping the ball.


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## Trogdor (Jul 17, 2012)

R30A said:


> I think this thread is a prime example of railfan bickering.
> 
> There are three elements at play here-
> 
> ...


Exactly. This whole thread is based on one train's worth of experience. It's not like everybody going to Comic Con rode train 790 on Thursday. The OP happened to catch one of the two limited-capacity trainsets in operation on the route. This is because one of the normal sets was broken up to add capacity to the other trains. I mentioned this several pages back.


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## guest in the west (Jul 17, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> R30A said:
> 
> 
> > I think this thread is a prime example of railfan bickering.
> ...


Actually, the problem happened on quite a few other Surfliners as well, and has been reported in this thread.

But your comment unwittingly proves my point: why should an Amtrak experience, good or bad, vary so much from train to train? It's the consistency of service that is sorely missing from Amtrak, and IMHO, is in some cases worse than when I first began riding regularly 36 years ago.


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## the_traveler (Jul 17, 2012)

guest in the west said:


> 1342542509[/url]' post='380801']and IMHO, is in some cases worse than when I first began riding regularly 36 years ago.


For one thing most of those same cars that you were riding regularly 36 years ago were brand new - and are still in use today!


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## guest--on the Pacific (Jul 17, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> guest in the west said:
> 
> 
> > 1342542509[/url]' post='380801']and IMHO, is in some cases worse than when I first began riding regularly 36 years ago.
> ...


I would hope that someone obviously as knowledgeable about Amtrak as you are would be more cautious with broad generalizations when they don't apply to a thread.

On the Surfliner nee San Diegan line, where I have been riding for 36 years, the equipment has undergone two upgrades over the years, and in almost all cases today is very fine equipment. Perhaps your comment about old cars is true for some or most other lines, but please, address my point about service and personnel consistency, and not divert into equipment issues, if you wish to take issue with my points about Amtrak inconsistencies in service standards as a major cause of customer dissatisfaction.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 17, 2012)

guest--on the Pacific said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > guest in the west said:
> ...


No. No. No. This thread was started because 2 of the 9 Pacific Surfliner consists are using single level equipment right now, which is a problem, because they are *OLD AND LESS COMFORTABLE.* I think his response is quite fair. That equipment has been around for 3 decades.


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## Guest in the East (Jul 17, 2012)

guest--on the Pacific said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > guest in the west said:
> ...


Here's the best part of the original post:

>>Another self-inflicted wound by Amtrak on Amtrak, which can never gets it act together<<

All else is pointless discussion, once that mindset is established.


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## guest--on the Pacific (Jul 17, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> guest--on the Pacific said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


Sorry but as the person who started this thread and who has answered many questions from Amtrak supporters (see dialogue with Ryan) the main issue is not equipment but the inconsistency in service. Specifically as to the single level vs two level cars, as someone who has been riding the line for 36 years, I can tell you that there are many riders who find the actual seats on the single level cars more comfortable than the Surfliner seats. (For the same reason, that's why many riders who have BC tickets go into the older Superliner cars when they are part of the Surfliner consist. Myself, I find the seating largely a toss-up. It's a matter of preference, to be sure, but again I am uncomfortable with the grand generalizations that you easily assert.


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## the_traveler (Jul 17, 2012)

*Moderator's Note*

I think some of what's been said in this thread had gotten off the original topic. (And yes I will include my own post above.) Let's please confine all future comments to the original post.


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## hmy1 (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree that the equipment matters in the OP's case, not necessarily because it's old and less comfortable (which is true), but because:

1. It has less capacity, resulting in excessive standing room only conditions on the OP's train

2. It has narrower doors with steps that had to be opened manually, increasing loading/unloading times

3. The situation was exacerbated with just two staff members to open doors at each stop

A standard Surfliner trainset has automatically opening doors, so loading/unloading times would not be affected as much when the train is understaffed; Amtrak would just lose revenue if the conductors are unable to collect tickets from everybody due to the excessive SRO conditions. Regardless, the experience just sounds miserable for a 2 1/2 hour trip.

Based on the previous posts, sounds like Amtrak California tried to remedy the situation by sending the Del Mar trainsets out, but I guess there wasn't much they could do with the two single-level trains. Its good to have such high demand but bad to not be able to meet it in a positive way.

I like the idea of Metrolink sending an extra train or two all the way down to SAN if it can be possible, since a lot of the affected passengers probably boarded somewhere in LA or OC. They already tried that last year with the Del Mar race track, maybe it could be possible for Comic-con? Perhaps run them "express" through SD county to force the SD residents to take the Coaster? The only issue is that the Del Mar Metrolink trains ran on weekends only whereas Comic-con does covers Wednesday evening, Thursday, and Friday as well.

Or, maybe tack on some extra Metrolink cars to the existing Surfliner runs (south-bound in the morning and north-bound in the evening). This would eliminate scheduling issues with adding extra runs but brings up a host of other issues regarding mixing incompatible equipment. Just brainstorming...


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 17, 2012)

hmy1 said:


> I agree that the equipment matters in the OP's case, not necessarily because it's old and less comfortable (which is true), but because:
> 
> 1. It has less capacity, resulting in excessive standing room only conditions on the OP's train
> 
> ...


I am ok with most of your ideas. The only problem with the last one though is that it is physically impossible to attach the Metrolink and Surfliner cars. Both the Bombardier and the new Rotem cars connect via the "middle" level and the Pacifc Surfliner does not have this. If you wanted to throw them on and not grant those pax access to the cafe and other cars, then you could, but I don't think many people would be too happy with that.


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## Trogdor (Jul 17, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I am ok with most of your ideas. The only problem with the last one though is that it is physically impossible to attach the Metrolink and Surfliner cars. Both the Bombardier and the new Rotem cars connect via the "middle" level and the Pacifc Surfliner does not have this. If you wanted to throw them on and not grant those pax access to the cafe and other cars, then you could, but I don't think many people would be too happy with that.


More than just ability to access other cars in the train, depending on the type of diaphragm on the Metrolink cars, it may actually be prohibited by Amtrak rules. High-level and single-level cars can't run together unless there is a transition car or a buffer car (such as a baggage car or some other specially-equipped single-level car) in between them. Otherwise, the ends of the cars could be damaged.

Also, I'm not sure whether Metrolink even has any extra equipment. They've expanded service quite a bit in the past year, and they've also retired all of the ex-NJT cars that they were running, so they may not necessarily have the cars to spare.

One of the recurring themes in this thread is "why can't they just add....." but folks really don't realize that the fleet really is stretched thin. It's the middle of summer, so consists are running their maximum lengths right now throughout the country. It's also not like Thanksgiving, which is a peak in the middle of an otherwise slow period of travel, where lots of equipment can be cycled through for maintenance before the rush, then have everything in service (deferring non-mandatory maintenance for a couple of weeks), then recover by pulling extra cars out for that deferred maintenance. In the summer, you don't have the luxury of a low period to recover from oversubscribing the equipment for a few days. And, as others have pointed out, it's not just a "few days." The extra equipment that was running last weekend (hence the second single-level set) is going to be running for the rest of the summer due to Del Mar. There really is no other equipment available.

A poster earlier noted riding past LA yard and seeing "spare" equipment that could have been in service. However, just because a car is sitting in a yard doesn't mean it's available for service. It could be down for mandatory maintenance. It could have bad-ordered equipment that's being worked on (you don't want to be in a crowded coach with broken air conditioning or a clogged/overflowing toilet drain in the middle of the summer). There are many dozens of reasons why a car sitting in the yard isn't ready to go out into service.


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## Tracktwentynine (Jul 17, 2012)

Okay, let me say up front that I have not read the the comments since the first post. I'll go through them later.

I was in San Diego last week, because my significant other went to Comic-Con. I took 774 down from LA on Wednesday (the day before Comic-Con started). The line to board the train stretched all the way from the line up point across the waiting room to the far entrance 15 minutes before boarding started.

The conductors announced well before departure that due to Comic-Con, they expected the train to be extremely crowded, and to please move luggage out of seats and aisles or they'd check it for you. I did not observe any standing passengers, but almost every seat was taken. My significant other and myself were only able to sit together by asking someone to move across the aisle.

I thought Amtrak handled the crowds pretty well, considering.

On Monday morning, when I flew out of San Diego International Airport, it took me 35 minutes of standing in line just to print out a boarding pass (I wasn't checking luggage). The security line for the Southwest concourse stretched out the wing of that terminal, down the corridor to the next terminal, looped back around 180 degrees and continued all the way back to the Southwest terminal, then went outside the airport and continued down the sidewalk, out of sight.

I waited in the security line for almost an hour and didn't even get close to the checkpoint. About 30 minutes before my flight was to depart, airline representatives came through and pulled everyone out for my flight (they'd done that for the 7:55 flight as well) and put us in the Business Elite lane. I made it to the gate a little over 10 minutes before they closed the boarding door. The flight was full, and I know it was overbooked and they turned some people away.

I don't know if the airlines added any flights, but I doubt it. Since Southwest flies a uniform fleet of 737s, they probably couldn't add bigger planes, either.

The truth is that Comic-Con takes over San Diego. *Takes over*.

Let's look at some perspective:

Normally, the San Diego Trolley (light rail) transports about 91,000 trips on a weekday. That's probably representative of about 45,500 people (since most people take 2 trips a day). Comic-Con brought 140,000 people to San Diego, and a large majority of them took the Trolley. This basically means that the rider base of the San Diego Trolley triples for one week each July.

Now, admirably, the MTS added Trolley service. All trains were lengthened to run as 3 cars long. The Green Line was extended into Downtown. The Special Events Line was run (though it was signed as Green, but some trains still terminated at Qualcomm).

Despite that, every inbound train I saw in the morning and every outbound train I saw in the evening was packed to capacity. Worse that the Orange Line in Washington. Completely packed.

I'd hazard that even if MTS had doubled the service that they provided (beyond whatever increase they did give), the trains would _still_ have been crowded.

If Amtrak had added additional trains, they would have been just as packed, because more departures in the schedule would have made the trains more attractive to attendees.

Comic-Con increases the population of San Diego by 10% (and that's just counting the attendees, not the people like me who just tag along). It is impossible to really account for that madness.

I'm sorry you experienced crowded conditions. That's simply part of the Comic-Con experience. My significant other tells me that the Convention Center could barely have held another person. It was bursting at the seams. If you want to blame someone for the crowding, blame Comic-Con. They sell way more tickets than they have room for. And I'm pretty sure they use the proceeds to send the San Diego Fire Marshal on an all-expenses-paid vacation to Tahiti just to be sure.


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## trainfan969 (Jul 17, 2012)

hmy1 said:


> I agree that the equipment matters in the OP's case, not necessarily because it's old and less comfortable (which is true), but because:
> 
> 1. It has less capacity, resulting in excessive standing room only conditions on the OP's train
> 
> ...


Since Metrolink is primarily a commuter rail, they are going to need all the equipment they have during the work week. However if there was a crunch during the weekend, Amtrak could have coordinated with Metrolink and rented a trainset or two.

Another issue with a through train is 2 fold. First off, Metrolink cannot operate past a certain point as the crews are not trained for them. For Metrolink to get to Del Mar, they stop at Oceanside and another crew takes over and takes the train south to Del Mar. The other is coordination with the Coaster. If Coaster does not expand its service, it would be less than ideal.


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## trainfan969 (Jul 17, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > I am ok with most of your ideas. The only problem with the last one though is that it is physically impossible to attach the Metrolink and Surfliner cars. Both the Bombardier and the new Rotem cars connect via the "middle" level and the Pacifc Surfliner does not have this. If you wanted to throw them on and not grant those pax access to the cafe and other cars, then you could, but I don't think many people would be too happy with that.
> ...


That would be me. Literally all the equipment at the LA yard is there to be serviced for its next run or for maintenance. Under extreme circumstances have the workers borrowed or swapped equipment temporarily from the LD trains for the Surfliner sets (I recall a CCC and a Sightseer Lounge). Sometimes some trainsets have extra Superliner cars but again they are temporary since the fleet is stretched thin. In fact when the Anniversary train was in town, the loco and cabcar were used for a bit before it went to its next event.

As for Metrolink, I believe they have cars to spare but I doubt they have the motive power to spare.


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## Trogdor (Jul 17, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> On Monday morning, when I flew out of San Diego International Airport, it took me 35 minutes of standing in line just to print out a boarding pass (I wasn't checking luggage). The security line for the Southwest concourse stretched out the wing of that terminal, down the corridor to the next terminal, looped back around 180 degrees and continued all the way back to the Southwest terminal, then went outside the airport and continued down the sidewalk, out of sight.
> 
> I waited in the security line for almost an hour and didn't even get close to the checkpoint. About 30 minutes before my flight was to depart, airline representatives came through and pulled everyone out for my flight (they'd done that for the 7:55 flight as well) and put us in the Business Elite lane. I made it to the gate a little over 10 minutes before they closed the boarding door. The flight was full, and I know it was overbooked and they turned some people away.


And I'm sure all of those people will *never fly again* because of the experience they had going to Comic Con, right?


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## trainfan969 (Jul 17, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> *The conductors announced well before departure that due to Comic-Con, they expected the train to be extremely crowded, and to please move luggage out of seats and aisles or they'd check it for you. I did not observe any standing passengers, but almost every seat was taken. My significant other and myself were only able to sit together by asking someone to move across the aisle.*


I'm sure someone will seize upon that statement and exclaim that Amtrak knew about ComicCon and did nothing about it. Well truth be told, there's been a conga line for evening departures to SAN from LAX since the summer began.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 17, 2012)

To Trog,

On the issue of Metrolink not having cars, they do. They have lots and lots of extra cars, actually. Those cars: cab cars. Since replacing every trainset with a Rotem cab and possibly Rotem cars as well, there are not any Bombardier cabs left. Many of them are kept out at Moorpark and there is a string of 11 cars right outside LAUS, right at Mission Tower. I am not sure if these are cabs or not. For regular coaches though, Metrolink is in short supply. They are putting as many as possible on the consists now, so that where all used to be 3-5, they are now all 4-6. I do not know if the UTA Comets were returned to UTA or not, but I would think so.

Tracktwentynine,

You are right as well. Comic-Con is synonymous with San Diego for the weekend, they are one in the same. It does take it over. The business elite lane at San Diego is so nice as well. On time when my mom was needing to get to an important business meeting in San Francisco, she got to the airport an hour ahead, like we usually do, because that is almost always adequate at SAN. The security line was so long and the meeting so important that she called her boss and he bought her a ticket right then for Business Select and she whizzed right through, barely making it in before the flight. SAN gets pretty crazy, especially with Southwest. The Trolley is a wonderful service, truly a good system. I'm glad that it was constantly crowded, that's what the transit is for. I love the Trolley, and when it comes down to it, they provide an efficient service. The downside is that on a lot of those trains, there were a lot of people NOT paying.


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## X (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the fact that Caltrans will get 42 more cars as part of the current Bi-Level equipment order.

As for the Amfleet doors, let me add some clarification:

The doors on an Amfleet car are electrically operated, and capable of train-line operation. That is, with the press of one button all the doors on one side of the car will open simultaneously, but there's a hitch... The cars were built for the high-level platforms of the North East, the bottom of the door is several feet above track level ('Watch that last step, it's a doozy!'). However they were built to allow low-level platform operation, the floor in front of the door is actually a trap door. Opening it reveals a set of steps leading down to the ground, so no problem, right? Wrong, the trap door is a heavy, spring assisted piece of stainless steel that can only be opened manually, by someone who knows what they're doing. And remember, the trap door is also the floor when closed, if left open there will be a gap between the bottom of the steps and the top of the closed side door!


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## jdcnosse (Jul 23, 2012)

DesertRat said:


> Well, first off, is Amtrak supposed to plan for this sort if thing? Should the organizers of the Comic-Con have reached out to coordinate with Caliornia and Amtrak to begin with?
> 
> I mean, for the annual parade my city holds every year, we have military equipment loaned as rides for the honored guests, but the city has to contact the military each year to identify the equipment needed. I would think that holds true for *any* event to coordiante support.


I agree with DesertRat. Thanksgiving is a federal holiday, so it only makes sense that they'd plan ahead. People always travel during that time, and always will. Comic-Con, although happening at roughly the same time every year, is a private event. I don't see the airlines adding extra airplanes for them, or San Diego's transit system offering more intercity busses (though I could be wrong).

To just assume Amtrak is going to up and change it's plans for such an event would be poor planning. Amtrak has no idea how many people would arrive directly in SAN vs LAX, and to change the trains to reserved only would still get some people upset (because they can't do what they've always done). Now maybe next year, Comic-Con will get an arraignment going, but until then, you can't really complain for Amtrak doing what they do every other day of the year just because you've had one bad experience.


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## jdcnosse (Jul 23, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> > On Monday morning, when I flew out of San Diego International Airport, it took me 35 minutes of standing in line just to print out a boarding pass (I wasn't checking luggage). The security line for the Southwest concourse stretched out the wing of that terminal, down the corridor to the next terminal, looped back around 180 degrees and continued all the way back to the Southwest terminal, then went outside the airport and continued down the sidewalk, out of sight.
> ...


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## Anderson (Jul 23, 2012)

jdcnosse said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Tracktwentynine said:
> ...


Thanks for reminding me of the chaos at the Des Moines airport back in '04. I went out to watch the caucus and had not yet discovered the train (not to mention that I was in high school at the time; I was 16 on caucus day IIRC)...well, you can imagine what the airport looked like when the volunteers for all of the campaigns swamped the airport that morning. I got to see Al Franken get frustrated with the line, which was fun to watch and took the edge off the otherwise insane line.


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## hmy1 (Jul 23, 2012)

jdcnosse said:


> Thanksgiving is a federal holiday, so it only makes sense that they'd plan ahead. People always travel during that time, and always will. Comic-Con, although happening at roughly the same time every year, is a private event. I don't see the airlines adding extra airplanes for them, or San Diego's transit system offering more intercity busses (though I could be wrong).
> 
> To just assume Amtrak is going to up and change it's plans for such an event would be poor planning. Amtrak has no idea how many people would arrive directly in SAN vs LAX, and to change the trains to reserved only would still get some people upset (because they can't do what they've always done). Now maybe next year, Comic-Con will get an arraignment going, but until then, you can't really complain for Amtrak doing what they do every other day of the year just because you've had one bad experience.


San Diego MTS is probably the best when it comes to planning for special events. They add trolleys/buses/shuttles, extend hours, etc. for large events and Comic-con was no different. Even after adding as many cars as possible to each trolley and adding runs, many trolleys were SRO.

Amtrak doesn't have to change their plans to meet demand, but not doing so would be poor planning if they cared about attracting new customers. Well, repeat customers actually. It's not like Comic-con is new and people just started taking the train to it. Amtrak should have historical ridership data if they cared to review and act on them.


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## hmy1 (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh, and one last thing for the OP: Be sure to complain to Amtrak California. We can discuss this all we want here, but Amtrak California needs to hear about it. A conductor told me that a complaint from a customer carries more weight than feedback from their own staff. Write them for the benefit of future riders!


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