# Bus drivers union calls Denver Union Station a "hellhole."



## Chas (Dec 2, 2021)

This is more about the bus service than Amtrak, but Amtrak passengers will experience some of the same stuff.








RTD union calls Denver Union Station a ‘lawless hellhole’


The union that represents RTD and First Transits, RTD’s largest fixed-route contractor, is alerting the community of unsafe and unhealthy conditions at Denver Union Station.




kdvr.com


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## daybeers (Dec 2, 2021)

RTD seems really mismanaged and has misplaced priorities. They have spent billions upon billions building extremely expensive commuter rail to parking lots in the middle of nowhere. Most of it is honestly a fancy road project with upgrades, overpasses with the rail line, etc. And the light rail is quite slow. They want to spend more money because they had cost overruns. Maybe try reducing the width of the roads/stroads/highways in the metro area first and spending a fraction of it on housing and job services. Clearly the people who are camping out in the bus terminal don't have anywhere else to go. Colorado's housing problem is an epidemic and I saw it firsthand two months ago.


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## TheVig (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm not familiar with the station. Does Greyhound operate out of there? If not, they are probably missing out on an untapped customer base.


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## sttom (Dec 2, 2021)

Public transit in Colorado contains some of the weirdest agencies and plans that I have come across. Beyond FasTracks not working as planned and it costing more despite the promise of the P3 was it would be cheaper than if RTD did the whole thing themselves. Union Station was a glamour project and I'm surprised the transit workers union was the first to mention anything. Given that Union Station is basically a mall with a bus station in the basement, I'm surprised "important people" haven't said anything sooner. Lets hope they clean the place up before the high speed Amtrak line opens, if Colorado Springs doesn't kill it.


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## Chas (Dec 2, 2021)

TheVig said:


> I'm not familiar with the station. Does Greyhound operate out of there? If not, they are probably missing out on an untapped customer base.


The station is served by Amtrak (California Zephyr) plus the RTD [Regional Transporation District] buses and light rail, such as the train out to Denver International Airport. No intercity bus service that I am aware of.








Rail & Bus Transportation to Denver | Denver Union Station


A multi-modal transit hub in the heart of the Mile High City, Union Station is home to both Amtrak rail & RTD bus and rail services, connecting you to the Denver area.




unionstationindenver.com


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## Saddleshoes (Dec 2, 2021)

I had an afternoon to kill at Denver Union Station this past Aug. I wandered around a bit. I did feel a bit uncomfortable on the west end of the bus station. There were small groups camped out in corners of the place. I made it my business not to look into their business and moved on by. 

At the time I thought Denver is looking like the station in Seattle.
(One wonders if the legalization of recreational marijuana in both states has anything to do with the similarities????)


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## Willbridge (Dec 2, 2021)

The article missed several things.

Greyhound moved into the RTD station as part of their national downsizing. The underground bus station was not designed to handle their operation. It was especially not designed to handle passengers who might have to wait many hours camped out on the few benches.

The City and County of Denver closed Civic Center Park which had become a focal point for all the negative activities that are mentioned. The lawns look a lot better at Civic Center now but the people who were rousted just moved to the other end of the Mall.

Ironically, one reason that the homeless people like Union Station is because it has better security than the Civic Center area. Unfortunately, an hour of security costs about the same as an hour of bus service, so every time a security improvement is promised that's a cutback promised as well.

There are real problems but the author of the LinkedIn post is a disgruntled former RTD operator and union activist who leans toward strict enforcement of behavior rules. I would read his anger at management for not sending security out on buses to enforce mask rules and then get on a train and see the operator chatting with colleagues who were not masked. Palmgren never criticized his union brothers and sisters.

A future problem is that the governor has been kicking around the idea of offering free transit service. Previous experience with this is that it will draw more social problems.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 2, 2021)

Chas said:


> The station is served by Amtrak (California Zephyr) plus the RTD [Regional Transporation District] buses and light rail, such as the train out to Denver International Airport. No intercity bus service that I am aware of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to quibble, but the trains I saw in Denver looked more like heavy commuter rail, especially since the Hyundai Rotem cars are nearly identical to the Silverliner Vs used by SEPTA in Philadelphia for its commuter rail system.


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## Chas (Dec 2, 2021)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Not to quibble, but the trains I saw in Denver looked more like heavy commuter rail, especially since the Hyundai Rotem cars are nearly identical to the Silverliner Vs used by SEPTA in Philadelphia for its commuter rail system.


The difference between "light" and "heavy" commuter rail is above my pay grade, although I have seen the SEPTA trains you mention. Maybe you saw the airport train? It runs frequently.


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## Chas (Dec 2, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> The article missed several things.
> 
> Greyhound moved into the RTD station as part of their national downsizing. The underground bus station was not designed to handle their operation. It was especially not designed to handle passengers who might have to wait many hours camped out on the few benches.



The last time I was in Union Station as a passenger was 2018. I saw recently that the old Greyhound station in downtown Denver was demolished, though. Maybe the Union Stationwebsite needs updating, as govt sites often do. I see that Greyhound's site says that they use Union Station.


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## ScottR (Dec 2, 2021)

Very odd. I have just recently travelled through Denver twice on the Zephyr, and saw none of this. The train from DIA to Union Station was clean, on time, and easy to get to. Union Station had a lot of good bars, restaurants and hotels within easy walking distance, and I would love to stay in the hotel inside the station (the Crawford) someday. Just did not see any of this at all. A few homeless…but nothing you don‘t see everywhere in any big city…mostly worldwide.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 2, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> The article missed several things.
> 
> Greyhound moved into the RTD station as part of their national downsizing. The underground bus station was not designed to handle their operation. It was especially not designed to handle passengers who might have to wait many hours camped out on the few benches.
> 
> ...


From the original quoted article:

*"Union Station has high crime concentration*
The Problem Solvers also found the Union Station area has Denver’s second-highest concentration of violent crime."

This is a little misleading, as there's a difference between the "Union Station Area" and Union Station itself. The other thing to realize is that there is going to be _somewhere_ in the city that has the "highest concentration of violent crime." What would be more informative is the actual rate of violent crime in these areas. Basically, what's your chances of being physically attacked? How much different is that risk compared to other areas in the city? I wouldn't be surprised that the description of the social problems is an accurate one, but how serious is the threat to public safety?


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## MARC Rider (Dec 2, 2021)

ScottR said:


> Very odd. I have just recently travelled through Denver twice on the Zephyr, and saw none of this. The train from DIA to Union Station was clean, on time, and easy to get to. Union Station had a lot of good bars, restaurants and hotels within easy walking distance, and I would love to stay in the hotel inside the station (the Crawford) someday. Just did not see any of this at all. A few homeless…but nothing you don‘t see everywhere in any big city…mostly worldwide.


I think this is the bus station, which is on a lower level. I passed through in 2015, riding the express bus that ran from the airport before they started service on the A Line train.


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## jebr (Dec 2, 2021)

ScottR said:


> Very odd. I have just recently travelled through Denver twice on the Zephyr, and saw none of this. The train from DIA to Union Station was clean, on time, and easy to get to. Union Station had a lot of good bars, restaurants and hotels within easy walking distance, and I would love to stay in the hotel inside the station (the Crawford) someday. Just did not see any of this at all. A few homeless…but nothing you don‘t see everywhere in any big city…mostly worldwide.



Admittedly it's been over a year since I've passed through Denver Union Station, but I found that while the headhouse and platforms generally didn't have any major noticeable issues (a few homeless and the like, but nothing out of the ordinary,) the bus station on the lower level has been a fair amount sketchier. I've never had any direct problems, but it definitely had that "sketchy Greyhound station" vibe to it, and it wasn't a place that I really felt like lingering for too long in.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 2, 2021)

Saddleshoes said:


> (One wonders if the legalization of recreational marijuana in both states has anything to do with the similarities????)



The drug problems cited in the original quoted article specifically mentioned meth and heroin, not cannabis. And, from what I understand, even in Colorado, where cannabis is legal, it is still illegal to smoke it in public. Which is a good thing. Even though I support, in general, the legalization of recreational cannabis, the reek of secondhand weed smoke is disgusting and unpleasant. There's a reason why some of the varieties are called "skunk."


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## Willbridge (Dec 2, 2021)

Chas said:


> The last time I was in Union Station as a passenger was 2018. I saw recently that the old Greyhound station in downtown Denver was demolished, though. Maybe the Union Stationwebsite needs updating, as govt sites often do. I see that Greyhound's site says that they use Union Station.


The Union Station website is run by the promoters.


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## Willbridge (Dec 2, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> From the original quoted article:
> 
> *"Union Station has high crime concentration*
> The Problem Solvers also found the Union Station area has Denver’s second-highest concentration of violent crime."
> ...


The statistical area includes much of the nightlife activity and after midnight it can get rough. The residential neighbors are pressing for more control of that industry, which is fueled by adjacency to Coors Field. All of that goes into the statistics for Union Station.


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## CCC1007 (Dec 3, 2021)

Chas said:


> The difference between "light" and "heavy" commuter rail is above my pay grade, although I have seen the SEPTA trains you mention. Maybe you saw the airport train? It runs frequently.


The light rail cars are the ones that don't offer level boarding at all doors, at least in Denver.


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## Willbridge (Dec 3, 2021)

Chas said:


> The difference between "light" and "heavy" commuter rail is above my pay grade, although I have seen the SEPTA trains you mention. Maybe you saw the airport train? It runs frequently.


The classifications as used by RTD are "Light Rail" = low-level boarding, able to run in traffic, 750VDC, 55 mph top speed, regulated by FTA, PUC, municipal traffic engineers. "Commuter rail" = high-level platforms, confined to rail ROW's, 25KVAC, 79 mph top speed, regulated by FRA, PUC. All of the Light Rail lines and one of the Commuter Rail lines are run by RTD. Commuter Rail A, B, G-Lines are run under a DBOM contract.

"Heavy Rail" refers to rapid transit lines like the classic subway systems. The terms "Light" and "Heavy" refer to the degree of infrastructure investment and carrying capacity, not to the weight of vehicles.

Because Light Rail came first in Denver and an attempt to give it a cute name failed, people often refer to any RTD rail operation as Light Rail. Originally, all of the RTD rail lines were planned to be Light Rail. Some accidents elsewhere led to FRA and the Class I's demanding that the new lines adjacent to the freight lines meet FRA standards. With consultants familiar with SEPTA, and given the timing of the purchases, RTD's contractor bought the second batch of Hyundai Rotem emu cars, benefiting by not being first.


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## Chas (Dec 3, 2021)

Another TV station's take on the Union Station situation. Again, this is more about the bus part than the train part of the station. Security Guard: Denver's Union Station 'Being Taken Over' By Crime & Drugs, Is 'Major Risk For Patrons'


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 3, 2021)

So the armed security guard doesn’t feel safe?

So what happened to the transit police?

Or was the I imagining that the guys checking tickets and hanging out at the Denver Union Station were transit police to begin with?

Drug user are using there products in public space more often, so when they OD they can be spotted and helped.

Seems to be a national problem, not just in Denver.


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## Nick Farr (Dec 3, 2021)

There's three "Union Stations" to discuss here:

1) The building which is comprised of a food court and a boutique hotel.
2) The Amtrak and RTA Rail platform areas
3) The underground bus loading terminal (which might as well be another world entirely, since Amtrak passengers only see it if they're looking for it.)

Most of the problems are confined to #3. While I've seen some security incidents worth noting on the RTA platforms on my times riding through on the CZ, I've never felt unsafe in that area. I always use that opportunity to get off the train, head over to the Whole Foods or partake of the offerings in the Union Station building.


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## mlanoue (Dec 3, 2021)

Haven't been to Denver Union Station since the pandemic, but I agree that the main building with the hotel and restaurants is generally clean and safe--except for the restroom. I saw a few people hanging around in there before I went to get breakfast still in there when I came back an hour later. It all came off as pretty sketchy. So, that's pretty unfortunate. Otherwise it's a really great place.


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## BoulderCO (Dec 3, 2021)

I use Union Station proper when riding Amtrak and the adjoined RTD bus terminal for regional bus transit from Boulder. They are indeed VERY different experiences. Union Station itself is quite pleasant, and as a consequence, attracts a lot of visitors from the general public who aren't interested in either busses or trains. It enjoys a well-deserved reputation as a magnet for dining and drinking and, to a certain extent, shopping.

The point is, that since this is an Amtrak forum, readers should have no concern about unpleasant conditions during their trip. And, they would enjoy visiting Union Station while in Denver if time permits.

I agree, however, that the RTD bus concourse would benefit from increased law enforcement presence.


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## CCC1007 (Dec 3, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> There's three "Union Stations" to discuss here:
> 
> 1) The building which is comprised of a food court and a boutique hotel.
> 2) The Amtrak and RTA Rail platform areas
> ...


There is an often overlooked fourth portion of the station, the three track Light Rail platform area on the other end of the Bus terminal, next to the BNSF/UP joint line bypass of downtown.


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## Lonnie (Dec 3, 2021)

A few days ago we took a break in the Denver station while headed for Chicago in the CZ. While there were some characters in the area between the platforms and the station whom we chose to avoid, we found the hustle and bustle inside to be a welcome change from the desolation and abandonment one finds in so many current or formerly glorious stations like the tragedy of Buffalo's Central Terminal. However, we noticed that about a third of the post-Thanksgiving crowd in there were not wearing masks at all, so we made a quick exit.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 4, 2021)

From what I’ve seen at DUS, I’ll take the issues there and around the station over many others including Seattle, Portland, St. Paul, Los Angeles, Dallas, St. Louis, San Antonio, and a number of other stations that I‘ve visited. I actually felt quite safe the times I’ve been there.


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## KeepItGoing (Dec 4, 2021)

In November I took a bus to DUS. It let me out at the very end of the bus area, so I had to walk the whole length of it. It is long! I am recovering from an illness that has created a lot of fatigue for me, so the unexpected walk was quite unwelcome, and yes, it wasn't a really comfortable place.

Worse, though, was that when I wanted to leave the bus area and go up a level to the platforms, the elevator was broken, so I had to go up some long stairs. Then it wasn't clear how to get to the Amtrak track; I worried a while before I figured out that the tracks ended here so I could walk _around_ them.

I guess I never made it into the station itself.

So overall I was uncomfortable, but I never felt really unsafe.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 4, 2021)

Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 4, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.


Oh joy, this might be getting out of hand.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 4, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.


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## basketmaker (Dec 5, 2021)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Not to quibble, but the trains I saw in Denver looked more like heavy commuter rail, especially since the Hyundai Rotem cars are nearly identical to the Silverliner Vs used by SEPTA in Philadelphia for its commuter rail system.


The "letter" trains like the "A-train" 25 miles to the airport are heavy rail and electrified. There is a fairly extensive light rail system also.


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## basketmaker (Dec 5, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So the armed security guard doesn’t feel safe?
> 
> So what happened to the transit police?
> 
> ...


As for the armed guard not feeling safe... Life in prison for man who shot and killed RTD security guard


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## jis (Dec 12, 2021)

More on the bad situation at Denver Union Station Bus Concourse.





__





Report Shows RTD Union Station Problems Festering For Years: 1/3 In Survey Feel Safety At Risk When Using RTD






www.msn.com


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 13, 2021)

Too many lower payed security guards, and not enough transit police. Oh wait the transit police have limited powers.

Sorry if the armed security guards can not legally do anything, the transit police are legally prevented from doing anything. So why not contact out to Denver Police Department for a officer. One person on duty 24/7 required 5 people to fill that slot. You team the Denver police officer with a transit police officer and plant them at station. Problem immediately gets better. Simple solution.


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## jis (Dec 13, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Too many lower payed security guards, and not enough transit police. Oh wait the transit police have limited powers.
> 
> Sorry if the armed security guards can not legally do anything, the transit police are legally prevented from doing anything. So why not contact out to Denver Police Department for a officer. One person on duty 24/7 required 5 people to fill that slot. You team the Denver police officer with a transit police officer and plant them at station. Problem immediately gets better. Simple solution.


My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 13, 2021)

jis said:


> My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.



Or just a small elephant like the Denver Police Union feeling threaten by Transit Police. That why my solution was a single Denver Police officer 24/7. I would think renting a PD officer is very expensive in the Denver Metro. By matching them with a transit officer maybe the Police Union will get enough feedback to change the restrictions on the transit police.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 13, 2021)

jis said:


> My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.


This is happening in lots of Cities, it seems to have started with San Francisco and spread all over as local politicians in "Woke Cities" took over Micro Managing Law Enforcement.

Has there ever been a more poorly named Political idea than " Defund the Police??"

Disclaimer: Better Slogan: "Reform the Police!", it's badly needed in most Cities!


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## jis (Dec 13, 2021)

BTW, trying to steer this back to the Amtrak side of things, a few people asked me whether one has to go through the bus station to get to the LRT station. The answer is no. If you wish to get from an Amtrak train or RTD Line A Airport, you can walk on the surface to the LRT station and need not go into the "hell hole" alluded to here. Although things do leak out fro the subsurface bus facility to the surface and there have been a few spillover problems on the surface too.

BTW if you wish to avoid that entire area you can take the downtown circulator bus from one block away from the Amtrak side all the way to the LRT station too.


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## sttom (Dec 13, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> This is happening in lots of Cities, it seems to have started with San Francisco and spread all over as local politicians in "Woke Cities" took over Micro Managing Law Enforcement.
> 
> Has there ever been a more poorly named Political idea than " Defund the Police??"
> 
> Disclaimer: Better Slogan: "Reform the Police!", it's badly needed in most Cities!


The defund the police slogan comes from the notion that you need to demand something extreme to get something more workable. The actual goal is to reform the police, effectively speaking but they think you need to demand the abolition of policing to get real reforms. There are police abolitionists in the world, but most at least state they want reforms but use an inflammatory rhetoric to get noticed. The issue being that if you get too crazy, you get ignored anyways. Its kind of the same deal with some people advocating for public transit think of any rail improvement short of a 225 mph high speed line is a waste of money. 

The issue I have is why we even need transit police in the first place. They just seem to be a weird inefficiency in government that we have just accepted as being ok. For example, why can't the county sheriff's office or the state police handle issues on trains? Other than RTD being a district and districts being equal to a city in the government hierarchy and if one has cops, then so does the other. The issue I see is that Union Station as an RTD facility isn't expected to have its own water and sewer system, so why should RTD have its own cops? Especially when they tend to be ineffective compared to the police department that patrols just outside the doors.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 13, 2021)

Transit agencies having their own police force allow those officers to focus on problems involving transit. Local police department have other demands and might put any kind of transit enforcement on the back burner.

Having such police forces is quite a crazy quilt. Metra, for instance, has its own police force to protect passengers and property across a six-county area, while the CTA and Pace rely on local police. 

Got to agree with Bob that "Defund the Police" is the worst political slogan of all time.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 13, 2021)

Not sure how private railroads have gotten there own police forces. It’s a bit easier to understand how a government organization has there own police forces. Still you be amazed how how many government organizations have there own police.


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## jis (Dec 13, 2021)

Moderator's Note: This thread was moved from the Amtrak Rail Discussion Forum to here on the Commuter Rail and Rail Transit Forum to better align the content with the Forum.


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## me_little_me (Dec 13, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not sure how private railroads have gotten there own police forces. It’s a bit easier to understand how a government organization has there own police forces. Still you be amazed how how many government organizations have there own police.


I believe the NYC Transit Police were, at one time, the second largest police force in NY state, the NYPD being the largest.

They no longer exist as an independent police force, having been merged into the NYPD in '95. I had a first cousin who was a Transit Cop.


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## Willbridge (Dec 13, 2021)

Notes in understanding why the transit police in Denver are limited in their power -- RTD is classed by the courts as a state "entity" -- not a municipality or a county. It can only do what the state legislation creating it permits. The opposite is true of Denver -- it is what is constitutionally defined as a "home rule" city, which gives it quite a bit of leeway in how it does things.

Obviously, this situation needs to be corrected, but that includes labor issues. And Denver is not immune from the labor shortage. The police force is under its authorized strength.

And, although railway police and transit police exist for the same reasons, through years of lobbying the private railway police have more authority than the transit police.

Personal note: I enjoy the surface walk in good weather and go through the underground bus facility in bad weather. Either way, I've not been bothered by anyone, but I'm no longer down there late at night.


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## neroden (Dec 25, 2021)

sttom said:


> The defund the police slogan comes from the notion that you need to demand something extreme to get something more workable. The actual goal is to reform the police, effectively speaking but they think you need to demand the abolition of policing to get real reforms. There are police abolitionists in the world, but most at least state they want reforms but use an inflammatory rhetoric to get noticed. The issue being that if you get too crazy, you get ignored anyways. Its kind of the same deal with some people advocating for public transit think of any rail improvement short of a 225 mph high speed line is a waste of money.
> 
> The issue I have is why we even need transit police in the first place. They just seem to be a weird inefficiency in government that we have just accepted as being ok. For example, why can't the county sheriff's office or the state police handle issues on trains? Other than RTD being a district and districts being equal to a city in the government hierarchy and if one has cops, then so does the other. The issue I see is that Union Station as an RTD facility isn't expected to have its own water and sewer system, so why should RTD have its own cops? Especially when they tend to be ineffective compared to the police department that patrols just outside the doors.


Oh, it started with railroads and transit systems which cross municipal and even state borders. NJT police can handle incidents on NJT whether the train is in NJ, NY, or PA. State and local police would be out of jurisdiction.

Imagine a criminal committing assault on a train in one county, the county police respond, but now the train is in another county and they have no jurisdiction.... This happened. So railways can have their own police. Goal is to keep the trains moving, which is why I am disgusted when a train is delayed for police activity for long periods .... Railroad police exist so the police investigation can continue without stopping the trains...

Less relevant in stations. Relevant on the actual trains.


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## Willbridge (Feb 6, 2022)

A follow-up from Denver.

Homelessness crisis lands at Denver airport, prompting cycle of arrests (msn.com) 

Reports are that the social workers at Denver Union Station are finding that some of the unhoused people don't want to relocate into programs to help them. This isn't news to anyone who has worked on the street, but it's a cycle that we must go through. As the linked article shows, some feeling the combined law enforcement and social services pressure at DUS have taken the A-Line out to DIA.

When we went through an economic downturn in the 1990's RTD printed a green shirt-pocket card that had the addresses for shelters and social services listed. It was so that bus drivers could try to help people who demanded to ride free or sleep overnight on buses. Instead, it worked like a magic talisman. When panhandled, I'd pull it out of my pocket and the person asking for money would swear and turn away when they saw the card.

The person quoted in the article doesn't know it, but there are ways to get to DIA at low prices using discounts that are federally mandated or just because the elected board of directors felt generous.



> *DISCOUNTS*
> 
> Discount fares are available for all seniors 65+, *individuals with disabilities*, [my boldface] Medicare recipients, and youth (ages 6-19). Children five years of age or younger ride free with a fare-paying adult (limit three children with each fare-paying adult). An income-based fare discount is available for qualifying riders who enroll in RTD’s LiVE Program. Active duty members of the U.S. military ride for free on all RTD services. Proof of eligibility is required for all passengers using discounted fare products.



My church in North Denver had a community lunch on Sundays and I'd sit and chat with some of the guys _who knew I worked back then for RTD. _They swapped tips on how to get the disabilities discount via doctors who wanted to be helpful. Or they could get tickets or monthly passes from charities trying to help them find jobs. Before the distant airport opened, the popular request of charities was for tickets to a job interview in Boulder that obtained the highest value ticket.

So, this stuff has been going on since time eternal, but the volume has been increasing and "railroad bull" methods of handling problem characters are no longer acceptable. Just to give the airport something to worry about, the governor of Colorado is on record as favoring free transit service. Right now, the airport only has to deal with the craftiest. With free service it'll look like a snowstorm crowd at the airport every night.


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## neroden (Feb 7, 2022)

Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. This was proven when Salt Lake City tried just giving them all apartments; only a few still wanted to sleep outdoors. I personally think it's worth just paying for the apartments to keep 'em off the street, along with a food & clothing stipend. 

Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.

While some others are slackers who don't want to work, I figure, if they don't want to work, I don't want them doing any work. At this time in history, most work requires some degree of skill and desire to do a good job, and people who don't want to work are just going to make a mess of it; pay them to stay out of the way, I say!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 8, 2022)

neroden said:


> Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. This was proven when Salt Lake City tried just giving them all apartments; only a few still wanted to sleep outdoors. I personally think it's worth just paying for the apartments to keep 'em off the street, along with a food & clothing stipend.
> 
> Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.
> 
> While some others are slackers who don't want to work, I figure, if they don't want to work, I don't want them doing any work. At this time in history, most work requires some degree of skill and desire to do a good job, and people who don't want to work are just going to make a mess of it; pay them to stay out of the way, I say!



I agree with house first approach. Then we can address the next set of issues. Drug, alcohol or metal issues. However there a big group of homeless that just need a place to live. A roof and a physical address will take care a very large percentage of the homeless. Those would need more can get more services after they have a roof.

As for needed a college degree it’s overrated and trade school is still a needed profession. That and quality warehouse pickers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2022)

MikefromCrete said:


> Got to agree with Bob that "Defund the Police" is the worst political slogan of all time.


It should have been Demilitarize or maybe Deescalate the Police but of course our corporate media will label almost any push for change as "Defunding" now.



neroden said:


> Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. [...] Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.


Even many who work can no longer afford rent thanks to the large and growing disparity between American wages and housing costs. There is little reason to think this will change anytime soon.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2022)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> As for needed a college degree it’s overrated and trade school is still a needed profession. That and quality warehouse pickers.


Yeah, but the trades, and even warehouse pickers require some skill (the trades require a lot of skill), and people doing the work need to have at least some desire to do a good job. I mean would you want to give some homeless person who's homeless because he's a slacker who doesn't want to work a job as OBS on an Amtrak long-distance train?  I mean, that job doesn't require a college degree.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Yeah, but the trades, and even warehouse pickers require some skill (the trades require a lot of skill), and people doing the work need to have at least some desire to do a good job. I mean would you want to give some homeless person who's homeless because he's a slacker who doesn't want to work a job as OBS on an Amtrak long-distance train? I mean, that job doesn't require a college degree.


If you limit support because the recipients might be slackers then you get what we have now. Is this a good solution? Should we be proud of this?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 8, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you limit support because the recipients might be slackers then you get what we have now. Is this a good solution? Should we be proud of this?



I agree with the above statement. Homeless is not a simple issue, that why I am housing first type guy.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you limit support because the recipients might be slackers then you get what we have now. Is this a good solution? Should we be proud of this?


No, I agree with neroden that even the "slackers" need to get support. I think I slightly disagree with Just Thinking, who seems to imply that that the very small percentage of people who are demotivated to work will somehow become motivated by providing them access to trade schools (which I support) or unskilled labor, like warehouse jobs. If a person is not motivated to work for whatever reason, though usually it's stuff beyond their control, how would they be motivated to do a good job, even if you throw the job in their lap? Nonetheless, letting them rot in the street comes back to bite us in the rear. At the very least, we should be giving all these homeless people basic housing. In the long run, it's probably cheaper for the rest of us and saves us all a lot of problems, aside from being a right thing to do for people with a lot of problems.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 8, 2022)

Sorry miss read on the trade school thing. I am not anti-college, just not ever job needs a college degree in Roman History. Not ever job needs trade school either.

My point is a lot of homeless have jobs, but still can’t afford housing. So I am for the housing first plan. The amount of homeless I see and deal with in greater Denver, indicates to me it’s a lack of housing affordability. The rest area just north of Denver has shut off the water so you can’t wash up at there sinks, the parking lot is full at night with people sleeping in cars, RVs. These people have jobs, they can’t afford a house. The amount of homeless in Denver (a not so warm climate) is very impressive.


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## neroden (Feb 9, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you limit support because the recipients might be slackers then you get what we have now. Is this a good solution? Should we be proud of this?


Well, that was my point actually. Far too many people want to limit support because the recipients might be slackers, and... they're wrong. If the recipients are slackers, all the more important to give them support to stay out of the way.


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## Rover (Feb 9, 2022)

sttom said:


> Public transit in Colorado contains some of the weirdest agencies and plans that I have come across. Beyond FasTracks not working as planned and it costing more despite the promise of the P3 was it would be cheaper than if RTD did the whole thing themselves. Union Station was a glamour project and I'm surprised the transit workers union was the first to mention anything. Given that Union Station is basically a mall with a bus station in the basement, I'm surprised "important people" haven't said anything sooner. Lets hope they clean the place up before the high speed Amtrak line opens, if Colorado Springs doesn't kill it.



Dallas's Union Station could be so much nicer. The last time I visited it, about 4 years ago, the air was stale and stuffy inside. It was nothing I'd brag about. But it is a station that Amtrak doesn't have to back out of.

However the Dart TRE that runs between Dallas and Ft. Worth, I don't know how they do that so that the engine is in front when leaving Dallas...


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## jis (Feb 12, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTES: Posts discussing reversal of trains at terminal stations have been moved to its own thread under "Freight, International and Other Rail" Forum:





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Trains reversing at terminal stations


There still a lot of dead end terminal in Europe. Some are getting rebuilt to for thur traffic, others have had additional tracks installed that are for thur traffic. Frankfurt am Main terminal. Stuttgart rebuild in progress. Zurich basement tracks for thur traffic.




www.amtraktrains.com


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