# Amtrak in Wyoming



## railgeekteen (Mar 25, 2018)

Will Amtrak ever be back to Wyoming? If so, how?


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 25, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Will Amtrak ever be back to Wyoming? If so, how?


Whenever the Zephyr is rerouted thru Wyoming as happens for trackwork,weather etc.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 25, 2018)

There is such a demand for Denver through the mountains, the CZ will remain there. But reroutes for track work will go through Wyoming with no passenger stops.


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2018)

And it's a detour unique in that it's faster than the regular route, Denver to Salt Lake City...


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 26, 2018)

Wyoming route is definitely faster, probably much more efficient, but customer demand is for the current route, so with sold out trains during the summer the decision is obvious,


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## railgeekteen (Mar 26, 2018)

Could commuter rail ever reach Wyoming?


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## jis (Mar 26, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Could commuter rail ever reach Wyoming?


If Wyoming decides to pay for it, then maybe some day it might materialize as an extension of Denver area Commuter Service beyond Fort Collins. I would be very reluctant to hold my breath for it though


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## Eric S (Mar 26, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Could commuter rail ever reach Wyoming?


I can't really see commuter rail service ever reaching Wyoming. A Front Range intercity service, perhaps as Phase 3 or 5 or something. But commuter rail? Nah.


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2018)

It would be a Very long time, indeed, and Larimer County (Fort Collins), is not even a part of the RTD district....

Here's an article related from last Fall.... https://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/25/why-no-rail-service-denver-longmont-boulder/


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## Trogdor (Mar 26, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Could commuter rail ever reach Wyoming?


Isn't Wyoming the least populous state in the country? Hard to see any kind of commuter rail ever really getting much use under those circumstances.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Mar 26, 2018)

I could see regional rail to the Front Range, but that's about it in the mid-future.


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## railgeekteen (Mar 26, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> railgeekteen said:
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Cheyenne is not far from Denver.


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## ainamkartma (Mar 26, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Trogdor said:
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But the population density between Fort Collins and Cheyenne is indistinguishable from zero.

Ainamkartma


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 27, 2018)

I just can not see enough ridership to fill a couple cars everyday, every month. I think it is a car trip to/from Wyoming.


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## dlagrua (Mar 27, 2018)

Cheyennes beautiful stone station stands empty in great shape and there are still many nice stations along the old route of the former Pioneer.

IIRC that route traversed the Southern part of the state and also served Boise ID and Ogden , UT . I do not see service returning to Cheyenne. Although it is the most populous city in Wyoming, there is no equipment available to add another LD route.


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## Palmetto (Mar 27, 2018)

The station in Cheyenne was not used by Amtrak. Their trains ran via the Borie Cutoff, and stopped in Borie, west of Cheyenne. I think there was a van shuttle to Cheyenne from there for interested passengers. The Borie "station" was basically a single platform on the track 1 side of the railroad.


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## jis (Mar 27, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> The station in Cheyenne was not used by Amtrak. Their trains ran via the Borie Cutoff, and stopped in Borie, west of Cheyenne. I think there was a van shuttle to Cheyenne from there for interested passengers. The Borie "station" was basically a single platform on the track 1 side of the railroad.


The station in Cheyenne was used by Amtrak’s San Francisco Zephyr before they moved it to Borie. It used to involve a long backup move. Been there and done that. The move to Borie Amslab eliminated that backup move. There was an Ambus that connected Borie to Cheyenne. 

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## railiner (Mar 27, 2018)

A verrrrry long back up move.....all the way from Denver.





When No. 5 arrived in Denver, it did not wye. They cut off the Chicago motors, and added the Oakland motors to the back of the train. They pulled it backwards into Cheyenne station.

They then cut off the Oakland motors and ran them around the train, to the front, and proceeded West. The reverse, on No. 6.

Kind of reminiscent of the Pennsylvania Limited between New York and 30th Street Station, Philadelphia....also rode backwards over that segment....

(I wonder if the Pennsylvanian continues that "tradition"?)


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## jis (Mar 27, 2018)

Pennsylvanian and keystones ride backwards from New York to Philadelphia.

Pennsylvanian gets the diesel at the opposite end from where the electric was bringing it into Philly from NY going westbound, and of course reverse going eastbound.

The Keystones are all push pull with an ACS at one end and a cab car at the other end. They just reverse direction at Philly.

Incidentally, somehow making backup moves over long distances is frowned upon in the US. In India there are many very long distance trains which make huge reverse moves on their complex routing. But then again it does not take half an hour to hook up an engine in India either. I think such is true in Europe too Backup moves are made as and when necessary to provide a specific service.


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## dlagrua (Mar 27, 2018)

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
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> > The station in Cheyenne was not used by Amtrak. Their trains ran via the Borie Cutoff, and stopped in Borie, west of Cheyenne. I think there was a van shuttle to Cheyenne from there for interested passengers. The Borie "station" was basically a single platform on the track 1 side of the railroad.
> ...





jis said:


> Palmetto said:
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> > The station in Cheyenne was not used by Amtrak. Their trains ran via the Borie Cutoff, and stopped in Borie, west of Cheyenne. I think there was a van shuttle to Cheyenne from there for interested passengers. The Borie "station" was basically a single platform on the track 1 side of the railroad.
> ...


I do not doubt that this was the case but what is puzzling is that Union Pacific freight trains routinely go past that station heading West. Also how did the 1940's/ 1950's trains stop at Cheyenne. I though that this was a station on a direct route West,


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## jis (Mar 27, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> jis said:
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Those trains did not go via Denver. They took off west on the trans-continental from Julesburg, instead of going southwest to Denver. Only the City of Denver (and a few other Chicago - Denver service) went to Denver. Not the trains to the west of the Rockies.


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## railiner (Mar 27, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> jis said:
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UP thru trains from Nebraska did not dip down into Denver. Only the trains from Kansas went thru Denver....

Best illustrated if you look at a railway map....


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## Palmetto (Mar 28, 2018)

True about the UP trains, but the discussion is about Amtrak trains.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

The question from dlagrua was about trains in 1940/1950 though. As far as I recall there was no Amtrak then [emoji57]

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## fairviewroad (Mar 29, 2018)

jis said:


> Pennsylvanian and keystones ride backwards from New York to Philadelphia.


Depending on where you are sitting (on the Keystones), it is the Harrisburg-Philadelphia section that rides backwards...then you go forwards to New York.


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

Actually it depends more on which end the locomotive is sitting at rather than where an individual is sitting




There are many ways to look at a situation


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## railiner (Mar 29, 2018)

IIRC, on some equipment sets, they had half the car facing opposite ways, sort of the way they did it on last years Autumn Express. So if there was room when the train changed directions at Philly, all you had to do was change seats.

(Was it the old heritage 'Clocker' cars that I recall?)


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

railiner said:


> IIRC, on some equipment sets, they had half the car facing opposite ways, sort of the way they did it on last years Autumn Express. So if there was room when the train changed directions at Philly, all you had to do was change seats.
> 
> (Was it the old heritage 'Clocker' cars that I recall?)


AFAIK all cars on Keystones have half the car facing one way and the other half the other way. That is how their consists are set up.


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## Palmetto (Mar 29, 2018)

jis said:


> railiner said:
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> > IIRC, on some equipment sets, they had half the car facing opposite ways, sort of the way they did it on last years Autumn Express. So if there was room when the train changed directions at Philly, all you had to do was change seats.
> ...


That's my recollection. I just changed to a forward-riding seat at Philly, IIRC.


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## Trogdor (Mar 29, 2018)

Is it technically a "backup move" if the engineer is on the point of the move? I'm inclined to say it isn't, so in almost all of the noted cases, trains weren't "backing up" but merely changed ends (even if the engines were run around).


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> Is it technically a "backup move" if the engineer is on the point of the move? I'm inclined to say it isn't, so in almost all of the noted cases, trains weren't "backing up" but merely changed ends (even if the engines were run around).


You are quite correct, as you stated, "technically" speaking. But it's just semantics....for the passenger's who suddenly find themselves riding backwards, and were not aware that was going to happen....to them, they are going "backwards"....


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## neroden (Mar 31, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Will Amtrak ever be back to Wyoming? If so, how?


Unlikely. Here's why.

(1) The entire state of Wyoming has a smaller population than most metropolitan areas. It makes more sense financially for Amtrak to run a disconnected train from Columbus to Cincinnati than it does to run a train for the purpose of serving Wyoming.

(2) There is no political support for Amtrak from Wyoming's three politicians.

The only way Amtrak returns to Wyoming is if Wyoming is "on the way". Specifically if the current mountain route from Denver to Salt Lake becomes unusable. While it's also on the way from the Pacific NW to Denver, there isn't enough land traffic between those two areas to justify a train.

Frankly we're more likely to see service return to South Dakota, which has 50% more population than Wyoming, and that's pretty unlikely too.

I'm more interested in questions like "When will Amtrak return to Scranton?" The Scranton-Wilkes Barre-Hazelton metro area has a population about the same as the state of Wyoming.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 31, 2018)

neroden said:


> railgeekteen said:
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> > Will Amtrak ever be back to Wyoming? If so, how?
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I'm originally from Wilkes Barre. Fun fact: There is a Wyoming, Pennsylvania in the Wilkes Barre area


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2018)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> neroden said:
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We've got one in New York, too....the Empire line passes just to the north of it....


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## jis (Apr 1, 2018)

There is a Wyoming Borough in Luzerne County, and in addition there is a Wyoming County northwest of Scranton.

Of course it is impossible for Amtrak to “return” to Scranton since it has never been there with any commercial service in the first place. Only Amtrak Specials have shown up at Steamtown every so often.

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## Anthony V (Apr 1, 2018)

neroden said:


> railgeekteen said:
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Reviving the Pioneer on the Overland Route would return service to Wyoming as well as fill in a major gap in the Amtrak system. Amtrak would just need to buy the necessary equipment to run the route.


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2018)

Anthony V said:


> neroden said:
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You are correct...however, it would be far less costly to just run the Pioneer from Salt Lake City to Portland/Seattle, as it did originally. That would still leave Wyoming without service, unfortunately.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2018)

And it could be run as a Coach and Cafe train as it did originally [emoji57]

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## railgeekteen (Apr 1, 2018)

railiner said:


> Anthony V said:
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Going through Wyoming is quicker however.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 1, 2018)

If you go through Wyoming, you still miss their largest city of Cheyenne, Plus would you still go down to SLC?


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> If you go through Wyoming, you still miss their largest city of Cheyenne, Plus would you still go down to SLC?


Good points!You could still go into Cheyenne and Salt Lake City, but both would add extra time to the trip, and both would require reverse moves.

You could also save even more time by bypassing Ogden, also, on the cutoff from Granger to McCammon, the route of the City of Portland. The Amtrak trains only used that as a detour on a few occasions....


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## railgeekteen (Apr 2, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> If you go through Wyoming, you still miss their largest city of Cheyenne, Plus would you still go down to SLC?


You could go through Cheyenne without a backup move if you bypass Denver.


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## railiner (Apr 2, 2018)

railgeekteen said:


> Lonestar648 said:
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Miss the largest intermediate market on the entire CZ route? I don't think so....

And if your suggesting using the UP line from Nebraska to Cheyenne to do that.....well as we like to say around here....fahgeddaboudit!


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## railgeekteen (Apr 2, 2018)

railiner said:


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This would be for a Pioneer restoration, not rerouting the CZ.


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## jis (Apr 2, 2018)

The point that some appear to be missing, and one that has been made by neroden earlier, is that the business case for Pioneer is poor as it stands. So its best hope is to unburden it of as much cost as possible. adding a run through Wyoming does just the opposite. It adds the cost of running it many hundreds of miles for hardly any additional revenue.

The best of restoring the Pioneer is in the form of a very low cost operation between Salt lake City and Seattle, as it was originally conceived, before it grew like a Christmas Tree and eventually costed itself out of existence.


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