# AnsaldoBreda disqualified from bidding on new SF LRVs



## CHamilton (Sep 17, 2013)

Muni’s Next Train Fleet: Breda Disqualified From Another Contract



> As Muni seeks its next-generation fleet of light-rail vehicles to serve the metro system, the manufacturer of its current, notoriously unreliable train cars has been barred from competing for a new contract. Italy-based AnsaldoBreda, which produced the LRVs that Muni riders use today, was the only one of four prospective manufacturers which didn’t meet the new criteria set by the SF Municipal Transportation Agency....
> 
> 
> The dispute comes at a time when the SFMTA is looking to replace its aging rail fleet of 151 train cars, the “useful life” of which is expected to end in 2021, with an even larger fleet of up to 260 cars that will be needed to serve the Central Subway when it opens in 2019. Since the Breda trains went into operation in 1996, they’ve continued to plague Muni with a host of mechanical issues and design flaws....
> ...


For some history, see this AU thread from 2003.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 17, 2013)

HIP, HIP, HOORAY! My family, who live very near - and use the J Church regularly - will be VERY, VERY glad to hear this!


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## CHamilton (Sep 17, 2013)

More history on the issue from 1998.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 18, 2013)

I was writing to my cousin anyway last night, she takes the J Church regularly, so I mentioned the 'No Breda Clause.' She wrote back to say she had heard and has happy about it. She then added that the Bredas are the only LRVs that defy gravity because "You'll stop at 24th St. [which is on a hill] and the doors won't shut even though if gravity had its way, they would!"


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 19, 2013)

I've heard of massive issues surrounding AnsaldoBreda equipment. They have been wildly criticized for their trash products. I'm glad SF Muni will not buy more from them, they have turned into the G4500 of light rail. Muni Metro is making do with some pretty bad equipment right now, maybe some of those Siemen LRVs would be better.


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## rickycourtney (Sep 19, 2013)

It's interesting Breda (before it became AnsaldoBreda) built all of LA's subway cars which have been operating for 17-20 years with no major problems.

But like San Francisco and Boston... the AnsaldoBreda LRV's have been troubled...

LA purchased 50 back in 2006 with options to purchase several hundred more. The P2550 LRV's ended up being massively overweight and at one point the delivery of the vehicles was about three years behind schedule.

Metro said no thanks to exercising its options for more LRV's. So the Blue/Expo lines keep chugging along with 25 year old equipment (that was pretty poorly maintained for a few years.)

The good news is Metro has placed an order for 175 LRV's with Kinki Sharyo (with options to buy a total of 235.) Becuse of the substantial order, Kinki Sharyo moved its headquarters to El Segundo, CA and is building a manufacturing facility in Palmdale, CA.

Hopefully both Kinki Sharyo and Siemens in Sacramento, CA will bid on this San Francisco contract. That way we can keep jobs in California... and prevent more of this Italian junk from coming overseas.

Unfortunately I'm reading that a group of politicians in SF are pushing to have the restrictions against AnsaldoBreda removed from the call for bids. (Probably thanks to large campaign contributions or AnsaldoBreda promising to bring jobs to the Bay Area.)


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 19, 2013)

Woah! Tlak about some angry Italians when they read this! But if your product is terrible, then it's terrible. I personally like the Siemens cars, I've ridden then a lot in Denver, SLC, and Portland. Very unfamiliar with Kinki-Sharyo LRVs. Japanese railcars seem pretty good but flimsy and a bit too light. Not sure, they just feel flimsy.


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## rickycourtney (Sep 22, 2013)

Not sure why you'd think they are any more or less flimsy than LRV's built by any other company. LA's Nippon Sharyo (another Japanese firm) P865 & P2020 LRV's are built like tanks. They've been abused and somewhat neglected... Yet they keep chugging along.

Boston's Type 7 LRV was built by Kinki-Sharyo and are also built like tanks. They're much more reliable than the Type 8 LRV that are 10-20 years newer that were built by (guess who!) AnsaldoBreda.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 24, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Not sure why you'd think they are any more or less flimsy than LRV's built by any other company. LA's Nippon Sharyo (another Japanese firm) P865 & P2020 LRV's are built like tanks. They've been abused and somewhat neglected... Yet they keep chugging along.
> 
> Boston's Type 7 LRV was built by Kinki-Sharyo and are also built like tanks. They're much more reliable than the Type 8 LRV that are 10-20 years newer that were built by (guess who!) AnsaldoBreda.


AnsaldoBreda is obviously the worst. I guess Kinki-Sharyo is a lot better. Siemens still feels like the best.


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## Fan Railer (Oct 10, 2013)

AnsaldoBreda is just a mess in general. Even their HSR sets in Europe were rejected and returned for failing to meet standards. I would be surprised if they land an order anywhere outside of Italy in the next decade.


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## MattW (Oct 10, 2013)

They seemed to do a good job with MARTA's rehabbed and new railcars. The rehabs don't seem to be problematic, or at least I haven't heard any, and the new ones are sweethearts to ride on!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Oct 11, 2013)

What about the Breda's operated by Washington Metro? They seem to run fine, at lease they rode fine when I was there.


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## Fan Railer (Oct 11, 2013)

Perhaps the WMATA that somehow escaped the mayhem. Even so, though, the 4k cars are troublesome now, and are being replaced along with the older 1k series with the new 7k cars. The Rehabbed Bredas are doing better only because they were rehabbed by Alstom. I'm sure they had their fair share of issues before the rehab. However, "Buffalo, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Atlanta (MARTA), Denmark, and many others have had or are having issues." Honestly, you're only going to hear about how Breda sucks rather than "what a good job they did with this order," because that simply doesn't exist. As someone else puts it, "They actually edged out CAF in Miami for their new heavy rail fleet but that was due to political connections. AB also did the same in Honolulu which will get a fully automated system. I don't get how they stay in business either. Somehow they know how to win contracts yet they grossly underdeliver on anything they do and act like used car salesmen when it comes to financial penalties. Lately, they also seem to tell cities they will establish headquarters/manufacturing plants as a ploy to gain the contracts."


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## Jay (Mar 25, 2014)

What? SF is planning to buy new cars to replace their problematic Breda cars, themselves replacements for problematic Boeing cars! Will SF never get a break? And here I thought the Muni Bredas were doing just fine!



MattW said:


> They seemed to do a good job with MARTA's rehabbed and new railcars. The rehabs don't seem to be problematic, or at least I haven't heard any, and the new ones are sweethearts to ride on!


MARTA's cars were rehabbed by Alstom, not Breda.


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