# Turnstiles - Or Not - For L.A. Trains



## WhoozOn1st (May 4, 2013)

From the New York Times...

For Los Angeles, an End to the ‘Free’ Subway Ride - http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/end-of-the-free-subway-ride-in-los-angeles.html?pagewanted=1&ref=todayspaper

"This remains a work in progress. Some stations on the system have gates, some do not. Some of the gates are locked, some slip open with a simple push. The whole process has been ensnared in years of delay, reflecting the complex web of underground trains, light-rail trains and buses that form the public transit system here. Its opponents continue to question whether the supposed recovery of lost revenue would cover the $46 million installation cost, plus $103,000 a month in maintenance."

In a related development, Metrolink - the commuter train agency not to be confused with Metrorail's light rail and subways - is making its tickets compatible with the Metrorail TAP fare system for transfers to light rail and subways from Metrolink trains:

Metrolink to provide TAP-enabled tickets - http://www.metrolinktrains.com/howtoride/page/title/tap

"All Metrolink tickets with Los Angeles County destinations will be TAP-compatible, and all riders will be required to physically tap their tickets at the turnstiles and validators when transferring to a Metro Rail line. When boarding a bus, the current policy of simply showing the bus operator your Metrolink ticket will still be in effect. Tapping is not required on buses."




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​Red Line subway station at Hollywood & Vine. No turnstiles in the mezzanine!​


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## Dan O (May 5, 2013)

Thanks for the info.


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## AlanB (May 5, 2013)

Of course the best part of all this is that while it will help silence a few critics for a while, it won't stop fare evasion. The turnstiles in NYC certainly don't stop fare evasion. A semi-recent study found that an estimated 18.5 million people evaded the NYC subway fares in 2009. While I fully realize that NYC trains carry many more riders than LA does on their trains, that still represents over $41 Million in lost revenue at the price of a subway ride in 2009.

In other words, NYC lost almost as much money in one year due to fare evasion as LA spent over the last 4 to 5 years on its turnstiles that only lock down 42 of 101 station, or barely 1/3rd of the system.

One really has to wonder if the increase in revenue will ever cover the $103K per month in maintenance of the turnstiles, much less the initial capital outlay.


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## afigg (May 5, 2013)

AlanB said:


> In other words, NYC lost almost as much money in one year due to fare evasion as LA spent over the last 4 to 5 years on its turnstiles that only lock down 42 of 101 station, or barely 1/3rd of the system.
> One really has to wonder if the increase in revenue will ever cover the $103K per month in maintenance of the turnstiles, much less the initial capital outlay.


I think LA has to go to a turnstile pay system. LA is expanding both their light rail and subway system, so it is not just for the current ridership levels, but for a much larger system in 20 to 30 years with a lot more daily passengers. If people can easily cheat and many don't pay, that can have a corrosive effect on people treating the transit system and operators with some degree of respect and over time cuts the percentage of people who do pay. Poor project management of converting to a turnstile system is not a reason to not implement it.
There is a secondary benefit of a turnstile system in that it allows direct measurement of the passenger traffic through the system. More accurate and detailed data allows for better long term planning for capacity expansion where needed. Monitor the number of people entering and exiting the turnstiles at each station in real-time to respond to specific problems. Or adjust system capacity by adding extra trains in near term if there is an event going on.

The DC Metro collects data on where people enter and where they exit. That allows for detailed data on traffic levels between station pairs. May not know the complete route people took, but for a system the size of the DC Metro, one can figure what route 95% took. WMATA released data on the station pair traffic broken down by weekday, weekend, time of day (rush hour,.middle of day, evening periods) for the month of May 2012. Allowed for interesting public data mining of passenger traffic levels through the DC Metro system.


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## AlanB (May 5, 2013)

afigg said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, NYC lost almost as much money in one year due to fare evasion as LA spent over the last 4 to 5 years on its turnstiles that only lock down 42 of 101 station, or barely 1/3rd of the system.
> ...


But again, if turnstiles don't stop theft of service in NYC, then it most certainly isn't going to stop it in LA no matter how much bigger they make their system. LA would have to triple their pace of building new lines to even hope to have the system that NYC currently has before 2040.

Plus, again, 2/3rds of their stations are not getting turnstiles and can never get turnstiles as there is no way to secure many of the light rail stations.



afigg said:


> There is a secondary benefit of a turnstile system in that it allows direct measurement of the passenger traffic through the system. More accurate and detailed data allows for better long term planning for capacity expansion where needed. Monitor the number of people entering and exiting the turnstiles at each station in real-time to respond to specific problems. Or adjust system capacity by adding extra trains in near term if there is an event going on.
> The DC Metro collects data on where people enter and where they exit. That allows for detailed data on traffic levels between station pairs. May not know the complete route people took, but for a system the size of the DC Metro, one can figure what route 95% took. WMATA released data on the station pair traffic broken down by weekday, weekend, time of day (rush hour,.middle of day, evening periods) for the month of May 2012. Allowed for interesting public data mining of passenger traffic levels through the DC Metro system.


Actually much of that can also be accomplished via people counters mounted over the doors, which is how LRT systems count their passengers. And since one can't dodge a thermal camera, unlike a turnstile, their counts are probably more accurate.


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## Mark Del Monte (May 7, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Of course the best part of all this is that while it will help silence a few critics for a while, it won't stop fare evasion. The turnstiles in NYC certainly don't stop fare evasion. A semi-recent study found that an estimated 18.5 million people evaded the NYC subway fares in 2009. While I fully realize that NYC trains carry many more riders than LA does on their trains, that still represents over $41 Million in lost revenue at the price of a subway ride in 2009.
> In other words, NYC lost almost as much money in one year due to fare evasion as LA spent over the last 4 to 5 years on its turnstiles that only lock down 42 of 101 station, or barely 1/3rd of the system.
> 
> One really has to wonder if the increase in revenue will ever cover the $103K per month in maintenance of the turnstiles, much less the initial capital outlay.


Even worse the NYC MTA has station agents at least. Without station agents people will just jump the turnstyles for sure. Way to waste 46 million dollars.


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## George Harris (May 13, 2013)

Ever heard "Striving for perfection driving out the good"? That is a reality in many things that can be done in real life. The question is not will the turnstiles eliminate fare evasion, but, will it reduce it significantly and will it increase respect for the concept that passengers should be paying for their ride. As the size of the system increases it also makes in use of a distance based fare system practical.

I was in LA this past Tuesday and one problem they have it a lack of clarity in how to buy tickets on their system. Some of the fare evasion may just be an "I can't figure it out so I give up" response.

Sounds like NYC needs to work harder at preventing fare evasion.


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