# China Hi-Speed Puts US to Shame



## guest

from The New York Times of Saturday, February 13, 2010:



> February 13, 2010China Sees Growth Engine in a Web of Fast Trains
> 
> By KEITH BRADSHER
> 
> WUHAN, China — The world’s largest human migration — the annual crush of Chinese traveling home to celebrate the Lunar New Year, which is this Sunday — is going a little faster this time thanks to a new high-speed rail line.
> 
> The Chinese bullet train, which has the world’s fastest average speed, connects Guangzhou, the southern coastal manufacturing center, to Wuhan, deep in the interior. In a little more than three hours, it travels 664 miles, comparable to the distance from Boston to southern Virginia. That is less time than Amtrak’s fastest train, the Acela, takes to go from Boston just to New York.


The full story can be found here.


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## AlanB

While I thank the guest for posting the story  ; please be aware that copyright rules prohibit reposting the entire story on our board. In the future please be sure to only quote a paragraph or two in the future, and then provide a link to the full story. Many thanks!


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## George Harris

I think the distance may be 664 *kilometers*, not 664 miles. 664 miles is about 1000 km, and would require an average start to stop of about 330 km/h, simply not possible with a 350 km/h maximum speed.


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## Green Maned Lion

George Harris said:


> I think the distance may be 664 *kilometers*, not 664 miles. 664 miles is about 1000 km, and would require an average start to stop of about 330 km/h, simply not possible with a 350 km/h maximum speed.


If its an express, running without stops, over track that permits maximum speed its entire length, without interruptions in its schedule... I think over a distance of 664 miles, it might be possible to produce that average. The longer the distance, the less time is spent, proportionally, accelerating and decelerating. Not that I need to inform you of this.

But, realistically speaking, you're probably right.


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## jis

Newspaper reporters cannot tell the difference between demonstration runs and commercial service. And they tend to be a bit fast and loose with facts that they could verify if they wanted to, but mostly don't :angry:

From a Wikipedia article, that is updated by someone I personally know and trust:



> From December 28, 2009, until Guangzhou South Station is opened in late January 2010, 28 passenger train services run on the line daily each way. Of these 28 trains, two run between Wuhan and Changsha South, five run between Changsha South and Guangzhou North, and 21 run between Wuhan and Guangzhou North.
> Two of the 21 trains are nonstop, covering the 922-km long journey in a scheduled 02h57m (Southbound) or 02h58m (Northbound). This is an average speed of 313 kilometers per hour (194 mph) between stations. Before this line was opened, the fastest commercial train service between stations was the train run between Lorraine TGV and Champagne TGV in France, averaging 279 kilometers per hour (173 mph).


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## rrdude

Here's a link to another news story, well done. China HSR


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## DET63

Is there still talk of connecting the Chinese mainland with Taiwan via high-speed rail? Besides the physical challenges involved in creating a state-of-the-art rail link over a body of water that is, I believe, over 100 miles wide, there are the political challenges that would have to be addressed between two countries that don't officially recognize each other, even as each, to some degree, claims to be the legal government over the other's territory.


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## PetalumaLoco

DET63 said:


> Is there still talk of connecting the Chinese mainland with Taiwan via high-speed rail? Besides the physical challenges involved in creating a state-of-the-art rail link over a body of water that is, I believe, over 100 miles wide, there are the political challenges that would have to be addressed between two countries that don't officially recognize each other, even as each, to some degree, claims to be the legal government over the other's territory.


Google directions from the mainland to Taiwan.


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## jis

PetalumaLoco said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there still talk of connecting the Chinese mainland with Taiwan via high-speed rail? Besides the physical challenges involved in creating a state-of-the-art rail link over a body of water that is, I believe, over 100 miles wide, there are the political challenges that would have to be addressed between two countries that don't officially recognize each other, even as each, to some degree, claims to be the legal government over the other's territory.
> 
> 
> 
> Google directions from the mainland to Taiwan.
Click to expand...

It is possible that like everywhere else politicians making bombastic claims is alive and well in China too.

It looks like as everywhere else Chinese newspapers also do not proof read and do lose a few zeros in translation as in writing the distance is 1800m instead of 180000m i.e. 180km. The latter makes the venture look much more daunting the former, so it colors the story into a world of fantasy if the credibility depends on the distance being reasonably achievable.

And of course the politics of it is interesting, and also China may be rich but I think they have already achieved overstretching their budgets to a point of non-viability unless they are talking plans over the next 100 years.


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## DET63

> The shortest distance between Xiamen and Taiwan is only 1,800 meters


I believe this is sort of true. The distance from Xiamen to Quemoy (or Kinmen) is only a few kilometers. However, while Quemoy is administered by the ROC government, it is not very close to Taiwan. It is not where the proposed high-speed railway would most likely be built.


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## me_little_me

Big difference between China/Japan/Europe and the U.S.:

China was (and still is) a backward third world country with little auto, good rail or air service. It is natural for them to go for modern rail to reduce the need for the auto/air infrastructure and the lack of need to "upgrade" old rail as well as the much lower cost of "redeveloping" areas to put in rail.

Japan and Europe have a high density low auto usage history with cities close together much like the US northeast. The payback on passenger miles is very good. Again, without the well-developed in-city highway system like in the U.S., competition with autos is not as tough with rail.


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## rrdude

me_little_me said:


> Big difference between China/Japan/Europe and the U.S.:
> 
> China was (and still is) a backward third world country with little auto, good rail or air service. It is natural for them to go for modern rail to reduce the need for the auto/air infrastructure and the lack of need to "upgrade" old rail as well as the much lower cost of "redeveloping" areas to put in rail.
> 
> Japan and Europe have a high density low auto usage history with cities close together much like the US northeast. The payback on passenger miles is very good. Again, without the well-developed in-city highway system like in the U.S., competition with autos is not as tough with rail.



So how do you explain the success of the French? The county is the size of Texas, with a population about that of Florida. And they are not a third world county, they have roads,.......I'm not sticking up for the French, but the model works....


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## jis

me_little_me said:


> Big difference between China/Japan/Europe and the U.S.:
> 
> China was (and still is) a backward third world country with little auto, good rail or air service. It is natural for them to go for modern rail to reduce the need for the auto/air infrastructure and the lack of need to "upgrade" old rail as well as the much lower cost of "redeveloping" areas to put in rail.
> 
> Japan and Europe have a high density low auto usage history with cities close together much like the US northeast. The payback on passenger miles is very good. Again, without the well-developed in-city highway system like in the U.S., competition with autos is not as tough with rail.


Interesting! Have you ever been to Japan and Europe and seen their highway systems? It might come as a surprise to you that in many cases they are as good or better than ours. Remember that it is the German Autobahn system that essentially has no speed limit!

Afterall it is Germany that invented the notion of Autobahns. Eisenhower saw what Germany had during the war and came back and launched the Interstate Highway program. During postwar reconstruction, Germany proceeded to restore their Autobahn system and built further upon the base. The French Autoroutes are also excellent in most places. The High Speed Rail system is a relatively recent phenomenon which was built mostly after a relatively comprehensive highway system was in place in many areas (not all). In some case highways and HSR were built and continue to be built in parallel.

And as for Japan, many residents of Tokyo wish that you were right about the lack of urban grade separated limited access highways in Tokyo. If anything they are planning to tear a few down and shove them underground, especially in places like the Nihonbashi area where the entire top of the river is covered by the ring highway!


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## Eric S

rrdude said:


> So how do you explain the success of the French? The county is the size of Texas, with a population about that of Florida. And they are not a third world county, they have roads,.......I'm not sticking up for the French, but the model works....


Just to note: France is a little smaller than Texas (something like 550,000 sq km compared to about 650,000 sq km or so), and more than 3 times as populous as Florida (60-some-odd million compared to 18 million or so).


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Interesting! Have you ever been to Japan and Europe and seen their highway systems? It might come as a surprise to you that in many cases they are as good or better than ours.


No kidding. The simple truth is that Americans were _sold_ on the idea of needing a cars and planes to get anywhere. They can be sold on any concept you like, including train travel. Witness the TSA's new X-ray machines that subjects supposedly proudly independent Americans to naked photos for the simple infraction of boarding a domestic flight. Most folks don't argue or even ask any questions. They simply shut up and do as they're told. To make Americans ride trains you just need to buy enough government influence to make purchasing and operating a car far more expensive and difficult than alternative methods. It's really that simple. Trying to appeal to Americans with logical concerns about efficiency or the environment is a waste of time as we've all seen. There's no willingness to understand the issue and no concern for the "greater good" to appeal to. Better to just ignore their views and simply _drag_ them into a new era whether they like it or not.


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## AlanB

me_little_me said:


> Japan and Europe have a high density low auto usage history with cities close together much like the US northeast. The payback on passenger miles is very good. Again, without the well-developed in-city highway system like in the U.S., competition with autos is not as tough with rail.


The density argument is often trotted out by those opposed to rail. Yet if one looks at the Downeaster, a train that by the way isn't even high speed at 79MPH, we find that Portland, ME & the NH corridor have some of the lowest population densities around. Yet somehow they managed to find enough people to take nearly 500,000 rides on the Downeaster service last year. Portland has a population of 63,011 and a pop density of 3,029.2 people per square mile. Contrast that with for example Madison, Wisconsin where they are currently debating a train, with 223,389 people and a pop density of 3,029.8 people per sq mile.

Yet somehow at least some people in Wisconsin seem to think that no more than 3 people will want to ride this train.


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## leemell

daxomni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting! Have you ever been to Japan and Europe and seen their highway systems? It might come as a surprise to you that in many cases they are as good or better than ours.
> 
> 
> 
> No kidding. The simple truth is that Americans were _sold_ on the idea of needing a cars and planes to get anywhere. They can be sold on any concept you like, including train travel. Witness the TSA's new X-ray machines that subjects supposedly proudly independent Americans to naked photos for the simple infraction of boarding a domestic flight. Most folks don't argue or even ask any questions. They simply shut up and do as they're told. To make Americans ride trains you just need to buy enough government influence to make purchasing and operating a car far more expensive and difficult than alternative methods. It's really that simple. Trying to appeal to Americans with logical concerns about efficiency or the environment is a waste of time as we've all seen. There's no willingness to understand the issue and no concern for the "greater good" to appeal to. Better to just ignore their views and simply _drag_ them into a new era whether they like it or not.
Click to expand...

This (http://boingboing.net/2008/10/24/what-the-tsas-new-bo.html) and this (http://news.spreadit.org/body-scan-images-saved-tsa-full-body-scanners-controversy/) is what they look like, not really naked pics.


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## rrdude

Eric S said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you explain the success of the French? The county is the size of Texas, with a population about that of Florida. And they are not a third world county, they have roads,.......I'm not sticking up for the French, but the model works....
> 
> 
> 
> Just to note: France is a little smaller than Texas (something like 550,000 sq km compared to about 650,000 sq km or so), and more than 3 times as populous as Florida (60-some-odd million compared to 18 million or so).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update, I was generalizing, obviously..........


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## Eric S

rrdude said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you explain the success of the French? The county is the size of Texas, with a population about that of Florida. And they are not a third world county, they have roads,.......I'm not sticking up for the French, but the model works....
> 
> 
> 
> Just to note: France is a little smaller than Texas (something like 550,000 sq km compared to about 650,000 sq km or so), and more than 3 times as populous as Florida (60-some-odd million compared to 18 million or so).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the update, I was generalizing, obviously..........
Click to expand...

Of course.

An very interesting comparison is Spain and California. Spain is in the midst of one of the largest expansions of high speed rail anywhere. Spain is a little larger in area than California (about 500,000 sq km compared to 425,000 sq km), somewhat more populous (about 46 million compared to 37 million), and about the same population density (Spain 231 people per sq mi, California 234 people per sq mi).


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## jamesontheroad

However in none of these countries (unlike the USA) does the auto industry have such strong emotional, cultural and financial ties to the federal government or national psyche. The Big Three have the politicians and people of the USA right where they want them, absolutely hooked on their products and living in a country that is hard-wired and designed into car dependence.

(retreats to bunker  )


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## PetalumaLoco

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> However in none of these countries (unlike the USA) does the auto industry have such strong emotional, cultural and financial ties to the federal government or national psyche. The Big Three have the politicians and people of the USA right where they want them, absolutely hooked on their products and living in a country that is hard-wired and designed into car dependence.
> 
> (retreats to bunker  )


Ah, you mean Toyota, Chevy and Ford, right?

(follows him into bunker...)


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## jis

PetalumaLoco said:


> jamesbrownontheroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> However in none of these countries (unlike the USA) does the auto industry have such strong emotional, cultural and financial ties to the federal government or national psyche. The Big Three have the politicians and people of the USA right where they want them, absolutely hooked on their products and living in a country that is hard-wired and designed into car dependence.
> 
> (retreats to bunker  )
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, you mean Toyota, Chevy and Ford, right?
> 
> (follows him into bunker...)
Click to expand...

I think I will just head into the bunker without even saying anything further :hi:


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## George Harris

Use of public transportation of any kind is an acquired taste. Many people have no intention of acquiring it.

Is there still space in the bunker?


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## GlobalistPotato

Although the Chinese system is very impressive and knocks every other country's HSR system out of the water, it's something you really couldn't see coming until at least the beginning of the last decade.

During the 1990s, the Chinese government made their first plans for the current rail system we see built today. At the time, the average speed of Chinese passenger trains was around 60 km/h, or about 37 mph.

China built their first conventional HSR line back in 2005, and by 2007, China had more miles of HSR than any other country. In 2009, they introduced the fastest scheduled train in the world, the *Wuhan–Guangzhou service, running at a max of 220 mph and an average of 190 mph, for a travel time of 3.5 hrs over 601 miles. *

You couldn't tell someone before the last 10 years that China is going to build the fastest train network in the world. They'd laugh at you. They'd see China as a 3rd world country with a 3rd world rail system.

What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.

What I find interesting is that the distances involved in the system are about as equal as the distances between major American cities. This could break the rule-of-the-thumb that HSR is only effective out to 500 miles.


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## GG-1

GlobalistPotato said:


> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.


Aloha

All the made in China stuff we buy.


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## Green Maned Lion

GlobalistPotato said:


> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.


Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.

And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.

It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.


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## AlanB

Green Maned Lion said:


> GlobalistPotato said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.
> 
> And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.
> 
> It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.


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## Green Maned Lion

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GlobalistPotato said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.
> 
> And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.
> 
> It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.
Click to expand...

The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.

Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.

We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.


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## PRR 60

From the New York Times, 2/17/2011:



> BEIJING — In his seven years as chief of the Chinese Railways Ministry, Liu Zhijun built a commercial and political colossus that spanned continents and elevated the lowly train to a national symbol of pride and technological prowess. His abrupt sacking by the Communist Party is casting that empire in a decidedly different light, raising doubts not only about Mr. Liu’s stewardship and the corruption that dogs China’s vast public-works projects, but also, perhaps, the safety, financial soundness and long-term viability of a rail system that has captured the world’s attention.


The full story is HERE.


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## GlobalistPotato

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GlobalistPotato said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.
> 
> And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.
> 
> It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.
Click to expand...

That way of doing things sounds similar to how the interstate highway system was planned and built. And look what happened there... in terms of both the good and bad.

Don't worry, the Chinese will get to that point where they can't get anything done due to red tape.

Also, GML, a dictatorship is no less likely to fall due to selfishness of the ruling party than a total mob rule of democracy.

Selfishness is the key word here. Human nature makes it that one person or group uses his selfishness in a democracy to make themselves more powerful and wealthy, then at a certain point, they become the dictator, still selfish.

The whole "good of the people" is often just to make the people (livestock, sheep, whatever you call it) more productive, and in turn, make the dictator more powerful and wealthy.


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## guest

guest said:


> from The New York Times of Saturday, February 13, 2010:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> February 13, 2010China Sees Growth Engine in a Web of Fast Trains
> 
> By KEITH BRADSHER
> 
> WUHAN, China — The world’s largest human migration — the annual crush of Chinese traveling home to celebrate the Lunar New Year, which is this Sunday — is going a little faster this time thanks to a new high-speed rail line.
> 
> The Chinese bullet train, which has the world’s fastest average speed, connects Guangzhou, the southern coastal manufacturing center, to Wuhan, deep in the interior. In a little more than three hours, it travels 664 miles, comparable to the distance from Boston to southern Virginia. That is less time than Amtrak’s fastest train, the Acela, takes to go from Boston just to New York.
> 
> 
> 
> The full story can be found here.
Click to expand...

This seems the same story already posted elsewhere on High Speed Rail discussion??


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## Shawn Ryu

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GlobalistPotato said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.
> 
> And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.
> 
> It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.
> 
> We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.
Click to expand...

Democracy creates unnecessary politics. But I'd still rather live in a democratic country,


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## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GlobalistPotato said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. Unlike the Soviets and Us, the Chinese understand the difference between talking and doing. We will sit around and debate things, and after the debate, one side will reluctantly agree to a study. Then when that comes out we scream and debate and commission a study to study the validity of the study. And then that study comes out saying the previous study was valid (duh) when that study was made, but its taken us two years to do these studies and it may not be valid anymore.
> 
> And then people cut funding, and the study goes bankrupt. And then we sit around talking about death panels for the study, in case the text gets old and might want to go belly up, and whether it is moral to have death panels for text. And so on.
> 
> It sounds like siliness, but with a bit less levity, that's how we work. In China, the bigwigs say we are going to build a rail line between X and Y. Mountains, communities, rivers, and lakes are crossed, tunneled, or eliminated entirely with less nonsensical discussion than it takes us to create an environmental study on the effect building a bridge would have on bluegreengrass algae in one of the lakes they are traversing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I don't disagree with what you've said GML, that is indeed part of the equation, part of it is the fact that the Chinese also simply don't care. There is no one to object, unless they wish to get shot or jailed, so Government just does what it wants. Additionally they see this as a status symbol, perhaps even a slap in our faces that they can do it and we can't. And they can now also point to it and say "look what we're doing for the good of our people." Whether their people are actually benefiting from it is another matter, and certainly they'd benefit more from many other things than HSR, but still the government can point to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The more I see how this country is run, the less I like the concept of democracy. Putting the self interests of every man, woman, and child first over the overall benefit of the society is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Show me an efficient government, and I will show you a dictator. The people of China are mobilizing themselves into an industrial powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen. With each year, even the average man in China becomes wealthier and more comfortable than the year before. You must look at the lifestyle of the average Chinese and compare it not to ours, for ours is unrealistic. But to what it was like 20 years ago, or even more point fully, what it was like before Mao took over.
> 
> We let people's right to be a whining [female dog] get over the general benefit of society. And I'm bloody sick of it. Its stupid. *Personal freedom to the extent we consider ourselves entitled is a luxury we can no longer afford.*
Click to expand...

Wow, and I thought I was about as left-leaning as could be, you know, save-the-whale, tree-hugger, radical-commie-pinko-****, vote-for-higher-taxes-and-more-trains, Ann Arborite........... but "......luxury we can no longer afford........"

Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.

Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?


----------



## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.


And are not forced to stay if they do not want to stay. Just note which country has to work to keep their population from leaving and which one does not. And: For those to whom it applies, if you don't like living here, please leave and find someplace that you do.


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## GlobalistPotato

Green Maned Lion said:


> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.
> 
> Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?


Good point, I would agree with you.

Yes, it is a logical fallacy to believe that you want to live in some place just because you think it's better at doing something.

We didn't have to become a fascist dictatorship to build the interstate highway system even though our inspiration for that (the Autobahn) was built by **** Germany.

I don't like the political process today, but without democracy and "stubborn minorities", we wouldn't have mass transit, Amtrak, and most American cities would be gutted by freeways and brutalist architecture.






I actually think the Americanism at play here is that "we should emulate other countries' way of doing things, because it's best way of doing things, and we Americans are the best!", especially if we perceive them to be superior to us.

This forms a lot of the rhetoric from supporters of HSR and infrastructure development. You know, "We're falling behind Europe and Asia!".

But that argument doesn't always work, because not everyone wants to "dress up in other countries' clothes".

"No, just because America is classified as a developed country doesn't mean we need to be a conformist and adopt a universal health care system like other countries have."

And I feel like telling that to some of the liberals who support HSR. Because if I hear one go "Every developed country has a functional rail system/HSR except the US! We need to show how developed we are!", it actually causes a reaction in the opposition that just makes HSR into more of a Left-Right issue.





Note: I know universal health care and public infrastructure aren't the same thing, but our political process is stupid and loves lumping everything together.


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## MrFSS

*HERE* is a short (6 min) video about China's HSR. Some nice shots in and out of the trainset.


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## GlobalistPotato

MrFSS said:


> *HERE* is a short (6 min) video about China's HSR. Some nice shots in and out of the trainset.


Great video! Interesting to see how the Chinese system is very much incomplete at this time. And the first line was opened on August 1st, 2008? Wow.


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## John Bredin

GlobalistPotato said:


> I actually think the Americanism at play here is that "we should emulate other countries' way of doing things, because it's best way of doing things, and we Americans are the best!", especially if we perceive them to be superior to us. This forms a lot of the rhetoric from supporters of HSR and infrastructure development. You know, "We're falling behind Europe and Asia!". But that argument doesn't always work, because not everyone wants to "dress up in other countries' clothes". "No, just because America is classified as a developed country doesn't mean we need to be a conformist and adopt a universal health care system like other countries have."
> And I feel like telling that to some of the liberals who support HSR. Because if I hear one go "Every developed country has a functional rail system/HSR except the US! We need to show how developed we are!", it actually causes a reaction in the opposition that just makes HSR into more of a Left-Right issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: I know universal health care and public infrastructure aren't the same thing, but our political process is stupid and loves lumping everything together.


But pointing out the fact that all the other industrialized nations are doing HSR (and universal health care) isn't a matter of self-consciously and self-deprecatingly copying our "betters" or insecurely trying to be classed as a civilized or developed nation, as you portray it.

You are apparently aware of globalization, as you refer to it in your "handle".  Well, if all our serious competitors in the global marketplace are doing something and we're not, we shouldn't blindly follow but we should at least ask why they are doing it instead of defensively falling back on American exceptionalism ("America, f*ck yeah!"). A company that refuses to do what all its competitors are doing is either crazy like a fox or just plain crazy, and a potential investor would try to make damned sure which one before putting a penny into that company.

If oil prices go up, so the prices of fuels and plastics derived from oil also go up, and we are significantly more susceptible to those price increases because we have few transport alternatives to the car and the truck, then our economy will suffer worse than the competitor nations that have built real alternatives.

Similarly, if a car manufacturer in Japan or the U.K. doesn't have to worry about the health insurance costs of its employees and retirees, but an American company does (cough! General Motors cough!), then the American company is at a measurable competitive disadvantage.

This is about the economy and keeping America competitive in the marketplace, not mere feelings or waving the flag (either way: "America's so unique we follow our own path come what may" or "America must prove it's an advanced nation by doing what other advanced nations do.")


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## George Harris

GlobalistPotato said:


> You couldn't tell someone before the last 10 years that China is going to build the fastest train network in the world. They'd laugh at you. They'd see China as a 3rd world country with a 3rd world rail system.What I'd want to know is HOW the Chinese have been able to build this system so quickly.


The answer to that one is relatively easy. The Chinese have been expanding their regular railroad network like mad for about the last 30 years. In many ways, building a railroad is building a railroad. Yes, there are significant constraints on the alignment geometry. Yes, the tolerances of the track have to be very tight. Yes, the equipment has to be able to run the required speed without suspension, motor, and aerodynamic issues.

However, the differences, at least macro, are not near as large as they may appear. There was not a lot of ramping up of construction ability necessary nor a lot of transition of basic techniques necessary. In fact, the rails used on the Chinese high speed lines are exactly the same shape and weight as those used on their main lines elsewhere. The straightness and other rolling tolerances are probably significantly tighter, but the section itself is unchanged. Look at the pictures of their track. Below the rail, the track design is essentially German and has been used in Germany for quite a few years, and the major element of the track system, concrete, has been produced and placed in great quantities in China for quite a few years.

(The rail section is very close to, and an improvement of the UIC 60 - now called EN 60E1 in shape, or for those familiar with it, very close to Chessie System's 122 CB, now no longer produced as it was not up to the job, which itself appears to have been based on the UIC 60, reshaped to provide better internal stress distribution. Their spring clip appears to be based on, if not an exact knock-off of, the German Vossloh clip.)

The real surprise is that they decided to do it. That they could do it large scale should have been no surprise at all.


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## tp49

rrdude said:


> Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.


Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).

The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern

Yes, when it comes to public works projects things do get done much faster here because eminent domain involves the government saying we want it, here's some money, now leave.

Though, there are people who have protested. This is why the maglev runs only from Pudong Airport to the terminus at Longyang Road and not to People's Square where it was supposed to terminate. This is because there were protests about the extention to People's Square and that the neighborhoods they were going to run it through were filled with rich and the politically connected so it does happen.

I'm going to try to ride the high speed rail either this weekend or next weekend depending on the workload. When I do I will post pictures for sure.


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## George Harris

tp49 said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).
> 
> The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern
Click to expand...

I spent quite a few years on the other side of the strait, and understand - to a point - the mindsets of the opposite sides of the strait, but could in no way explain it.

Figure this one out: The Mainland government has basically told the government in Taiwan that they would attack them if Taiwan were to "Declare Independence", which would consist of renouncing their claim to be the legitimate government of all of China.

Don't remember the exact words on them, but when you arrive in Shanghai on an international flight you see signs defining three classifications: Chinese Citizens, Foreigners, and Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan Compatriots.


----------



## tp49

George Harris said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the web site, maybe you should look into a one-way ticket. China Airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> Heh, wrong website. China Airlines is Taiwanese which they still don't like in these here parts (I say that typing this from my office in Shanghai).
> 
> The proper airlines are Air China or China Eastern
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I spent quite a few years on the other side of the strait, and understand - to a point - the mindsets of the opposite sides of the strait, but could in no way explain it.
> 
> Figure this one out: The Mainland government has basically told the government in Taiwan that they would attack them if Taiwan were to "Declare Independence", which would consist of renouncing their claim to be the legitimate government of all of China.
> 
> Don't remember the exact words on them, but when you arrive in Shanghai on an international flight you see signs defining three classifications: Chinese Citizens, Foreigners, and Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan Compatriots.
Click to expand...

George, as we have discussed in the past I have also spent time on the other side of the strait, though not as much as you did. With the Ma regime in Taiwan, relations with China have improved greatly to the point where China Airlines and Eva Airlines and their Chinese counterparts actually are allowed to fly between Taiwan and China. Next month I'm visiting friends in Taipei flying from Hongquiao airport here to Shongshan in Taipei. I too understand the mindsets on both sides of the strait but am at a loss for how to explain it as well.

Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.


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## George Harris

tp49 said:


> With the Ma regime in Taiwan, relations with China have improved greatly to the point where China Airlines and Eva Airlines and their Chinese counterparts actually are allowed to fly between Taiwan and China. Next month I'm visiting friends in Taipei flying from Hongquiao airport here to Shongshan in Taipei. I too understand the mindsets on both sides of the strait but am at a loss for how to explain it as well.


Interesting. It is also interesting that the flights are going into Sungshan Airport at Taipei, as that is the domestic airport. International flights go to international airport out near Taoyuan.



> Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.


One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.


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## Phil

UPDATE 4-At least 32 die in east China high-speed train crash

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/china-train-idUSL3E7IN08J20110723

This train is really made in china


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## rrdude

STILL puts the US HSR effort to shame, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.


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## Gratt

rrdude said:


> STILL puts the US HSR effort to shame, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.


I think I would rather take a train in eastern Africa than a HSR line in China, the only nation with a worse safety record is India

What makes China so scary is its signaling system is fundamentally flawed. This is what happens when you put a quick build with unskilled labor over safety.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/07/27/general-as-china-train-crash_8588212.html

When two DC metro trains hit each other people had kittens, I doubt it would have made the news in China with their sensors. The only reason why this was made so public is because it was their brand new line, with high end customers.

So yeah, I will take Amtrak safety and speed over China any day.


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## jis

Gratt said:


> So yeah, I will take Amtrak safety and speed over China any day.


Right! And we of course don't have any design flaws by design (in spite of the seeming geniuses who build our systems), like two adjacent track segments having two signal systems that display the same aspect to mean two completely different and contrary things, that led to that P42 mounting a TOFC's rear end just outside of Chicago. 

Of course at the end of the day, anything that runs at zero speed is the safest of 'em all too


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## George Harris

jis said:


> Of course at the end of the day, anything that runs at zero speed is the safest of 'em all too


Which exactly describes the problem rail versus air in this country. The FAA is required to regulate and promote air services. The FRA has authority to regulate, but no requirement to promote.


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## Shawn Ryu

Green Maned Lion said:


> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.
> 
> Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?


Chinese government isnt efficient, its corrupt.


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## tp49

Shawn Ryu said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.
> 
> Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese government isnt efficient, its corrupt.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not the Chinese government in my personal experience is very efficient...and corrupt.


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## AC4400

George Harris said:


> One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.


Every Chinese citizen can get anywhere they want to go, including Shanghai, but if you want to settle there for more than 3 months, you must apply a "temporary resident permit" which is sometimes difficult to get.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

tp49 said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.
> 
> Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese government isnt efficient, its corrupt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Believe it or not the Chinese government in my personal experience is very efficient...and corrupt.
Click to expand...

Well depends on what area I guess. Chinese government may look efficient because its not a Democracy and few people in charge run the whole country.

But its definitely corrupt.

and honestly democracy doesnt mean inefficiency. Look at Japan and South Korea, full democracy yet they still manage to build and maintain great railroad systems.


----------



## tp49

Shawn Ryu said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I believe the Chinese have a more efficient government than we do does not mean I want to live in China. The American tendency to say "if you don't like it here, leave!" amuses me, always. Since, after all, this society was theoretically based on the idea that all people can have an share their own opinions.
> 
> Volkris wants to unleash his libertarian views on us. We aren't a libertarian country. I haven't asked him to leave. Why is Communism any worse than the sheer logical fallacy of libertarianism?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese government isnt efficient, its corrupt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Believe it or not the Chinese government in my personal experience is very efficient...and corrupt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well depends on what area I guess. Chinese government may look efficient because its not a Democracy and few people in charge run the whole country.
> 
> But its definitely corrupt.
> 
> and honestly democracy doesnt mean inefficiency. Look at Japan and South Korea, full democracy yet they still manage to build and maintain great railroad systems.
Click to expand...

Then it is hard to understand what you are trying to say. Maybe what you are referring to is governmental priorities of which in China HSR is very high on the list, unlike in the US. In this area the Chinese government is very efficient as it takes them very little time to acquire the land needed for the tracks because the government owns all the land in China and has no problem forcing people and businesses to move on their whim. In the US an eminent domain battle can and usually does take many years to complete and costs a lot of money to litigate.

The speed at which the Chinese can get the HSR lines built may lean more to lax standards or rushing to complete the project without proper checks to ensure the safety of the infrastructure but that leans more towards moving too quickly or to corruption at its worst.


----------



## dimsum

George Harris said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the Ma regime in Taiwan, relations with China have improved greatly to the point where China Airlines and Eva Airlines and their Chinese counterparts actually are allowed to fly between Taiwan and China. Next month I'm visiting friends in Taipei flying from Hongquiao airport here to Shongshan in Taipei. I too understand the mindsets on both sides of the strait but am at a loss for how to explain it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. It is also interesting that the flights are going into Sungshan Airport at Taipei, as that is the domestic airport. International flights go to international airport out near Taoyuan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.
Click to expand...



There's no such thing like“internal passport" and you don't need any special permit to enter another city except for Hong Kong.


----------



## George Harris

dimsum said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's no such thing likeinternal passport" and you don't need any special permit to enter another city except for Hong Kong.
Click to expand...

OK, I will admit that it was 15 years ago, but if there is no internal passport, then what was the little book people were showing the police that came through the train before the last stop in advance of Shenzhen? Particularly interesting since the foreigners, there were 2 of us on the train, were not asked to show anything.

If it is so wonderful, then why do you need to careful how you phrase things?


----------



## jis

dimsum said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing like“internal passport" and you don't need any special permit to enter another city except for Hong Kong.
Click to expand...

Has the special paperwork needed to get into TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) been removed now?


----------



## AC4400

jis said:


> Has the special paperwork needed to get into TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) been removed now?


I haven't heard of a "TAR paperwork", probably for journalists only. Tourism to TAR is now open all year round.


----------



## George Harris

AC4400 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has the special paperwork needed to get into TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) been removed now?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't heard of a "TAR paperwork", probably for journalists only. Tourism to TAR is now open all year round.
Click to expand...

Is it for wandering around on your own toruism or guided tour tourism only? There is a huge difference. When limited to guided tours what you can see is controlled.


----------



## dimsum

George Harris said:


> dimsum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though, being in China I need to be careful about how I phrase things but I will say this. Shanghai as a city is very much like New York and very free market capitalist. I'm seriously considering remaining here for awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> One major difference: Not just anybody in the country can go there. If you are a Chinese citizen, you must have the appropriate stamp in your internal passport to be allowed into the city.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's no such thing like“internal passport" and you don't need any special permit to enter another city except for Hong Kong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, I will admit that it was 15 years ago, but if there is no internal passport, then what was the little book people were showing the police that came through the train before the last stop in advance of Shenzhen? Particularly interesting since the foreigners, there were 2 of us on the train, were not asked to show anything.
> 
> If it is so wonderful, then why do you need to careful how you phrase things?
Click to expand...

Shenzhen was a special case I guess for it was designated as a"special area". I don't remember what happened 15 years ago. Anyway, I've never been to Shenzhen.

I am a Chinese citizen(shanghai resident) and I don't have a "internal passport" for travel. And therefore, there's no internal visa except for Hong Kong and Macau. All you have to bring to travel is you photo ID.

However, if a Chinese citizen needs to stay in another city like Shanghai or Beijing for more than 3 months legally, he/she needs a permit for "temporary stay". In real world, many people living in Beijing/Shanghai without local residence don't apply for the permit and no question is asked by police. Why? Because only lower-level workers like construction workers from remote poor villages will be asked to show their permit by the police. If you have a decent job and live in a decent neighborhood, no question will be asked. This is the way law enforcement system in China works.


----------



## AC4400

George Harris said:


> Is it for wandering around on your own toruism or guided tour tourism only? There is a huge difference. When limited to guided tours what you can see is controlled.


I believe it is for any kinds of tours. My wife's cousin is currently on his way from Chengdu to Lhasa on foot and by carpooling. But I guess, special permit is required if you want to enter military controled zones, namely along China National Highway 219.


----------



## tp49

AC4400 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has the special paperwork needed to get into TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) been removed now?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't heard of a "TAR paperwork", probably for journalists only. Tourism to TAR is now open all year round.
Click to expand...

I've heard of it. It is required to go anywhere in TAR outside of Lhasa. It's treated like a "visa" to go within TAR outside of Lhasa.


----------



## AC4400

tp49 said:


> I've heard of it. It is required to go anywhere in TAR outside of Lhasa. It's treated like a "visa" to go within TAR outside of Lhasa.


Interesting. Is it for foreigners only or for anyone including Chinese citizens?


----------



## jis

AC4400 said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard of it. It is required to go anywhere in TAR outside of Lhasa. It's treated like a "visa" to go within TAR outside of Lhasa.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Is it for foreigners only or for anyone including Chinese citizens?
Click to expand...

When I was last aware of such things it was for anyone who was not a Tibetan born native. Which of course actually meant that even the Tibetans had to have different paperwork to establish they were Tibetan.

Foreigners of course require their passport and either a group visa if on a CTS sponsored tour or individual visas with a Tibet endorsement to get to Tibet. A visa to enter China does not allow you to enter Tibet in and of itself. Entering from Nepal you can get a Tibet only visa that does not allow one to enter rest of China.

Of course all this might have changed since then.


----------

