# Commuter Rail from Las Cruces to El Paso



## DesertDude (May 8, 2016)

Conversations on commuter rail service to El Paso begin

I definitely think Las Cruces is a good candidate for rail service (see my other thread here). In a perfect world, a daily Sunset Limited could take NMSU students to Los Angeles and Houston and the major cities in between. I'm not sure LC-EP is a good corridor for frequent commuter service, but I'm impressed that locals are expressing support for the idea.


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## Palmetto (May 8, 2016)

Nice idea, but you're involving Texas in this plan, and unfortunately, Texas is pretty much an anti-passenger rail state. And I agree with you: I have doubts that the corridor would be a viable one. If Santa Fe to Alburquerque is struggling, it's pretty much a given that this one will struggle even more.


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## Shawn Ryu (May 8, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Nice idea, but you're involving Texas in this plan, and unfortunately, Texas is pretty much an anti-passenger rail state. And I agree with you: I have doubts that the corridor would be a viable one. If Santa Fe to Alburquerque is struggling, it's pretty much a given that this one will struggle even more.


DART is not too shabby and they are supposed to build Cotton Belt line soon.

Although I don't know if they got the green light for that.


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## Bob Dylan (May 8, 2016)

This is a good idea! According to friends that live in Las Cruces lots of Students and Locals go to El Paso for Shopping, Partying ( Juarez used to be Great till the Cartel War turned it into Murder Central) and to catch Planes and the Sunset Ltd.

The Long Dog runs between El Paso and Albuquerque thru Las Cruses but the connection times with the Sunset suck!

I've always wondered why the Sunset is routed along the border instead of through Las Cruses? UP runs it's Freights that way, perhaps they could be flip-flopped and the Sunset would benefit by running through a Growing College town instead of the Ghost towns it serves in the desert!???


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## VentureForth (May 9, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Nice idea, but you're involving Texas in this plan, and unfortunately, Texas is pretty much an anti-passenger rail state. And I agree with you: I have doubts that the corridor would be a viable one. If Santa Fe to Alburquerque is struggling, it's pretty much a given that this one will struggle even more.


Go to Dallas and tell me that again.

With the TRE, a HUGE Dart system, The A Train, the Heartland Flyer, the Texas Eagle, and Sunset Limited, I would hardly call Texas "Anti Passenger Rail".

What Texas IS against is spending MILLIONS of dollars on an infrastructure that no one will use.

TEXAS probably could care less about a train between Las Cruces and El Paso. But if El Paso and Las Cruces want it, they can make it happen.

Texas just isn't as stupid as Bill Richardson who crammed a poorly conceived and even worse executed rail plan, putting the state into even more debt, possibly totally screwing up the Southwest Chief, and leaving all the mess in the hands of his successors while he galavants in North Korea saving idiots who shouldn't have gone there in the first place.


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## Palmetto (May 9, 2016)

I'll concede things are moving along in the big Texas cities, and it's about time don't you think? Let's consider outside the Metroplex and Houston, though. There's a certain MPO in Southmost Texas that isn't even aware of the State's rail plan, which includes extending passenger rail services into its territory.

There is intercity rail service in the country's fourth largest city only three times a week. There is ONE train that runs north to OKC daily. That does not make a corridor. Three plus trains per day does, though.

Texas has a long way to go vis-a-vis rail transit, and Dallas is the oasis in the transit desert.

I would really like to find a source that cites the actual annual figure that Texas contributes towards its current passenger rail. I'll work on that.


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## jis (May 9, 2016)

Isn't the Heartland Flyer in serious risk of getting canned due to shortage of funding in the coming year?

Yeah, a good commuter network is not the same as good intercity service. Texas does not have much of the latter, and has only one and a half of the former.


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## Bob Dylan (May 9, 2016)

Jis is correct about about the Heartland Flyer being in danger of disappearing and the lack of most Texas politicians interest, or outright opposition, to anything rail in Texas.

We miss Kay Bailey Hutchison in the Senate, our current Senators are the Grey Ghost Cornyn and Terrible Ted Cruz, and the Congress Critters are focused on preventing Anything from passing that might make Obama look good.

As was said, the Political leaders in the Metro-Plex ( Hi Tony!) are a pleasant exception. The so called Progressive leaders here in the Traffic Choked People's Republic of Austin are sadly MIA when it comes to Rail matters.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 9, 2016)

VentureForth said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Nice idea, but you're involving Texas in this plan, and unfortunately, Texas is pretty much an anti-passenger rail state. And I agree with you: I have doubts that the corridor would be a viable one. If Santa Fe to Alburquerque is struggling, it's pretty much a given that this one will struggle even more.
> ...


Go to San Antonio, where passenger rail is uniquely restricted from receiving public funding or even the use of public land, and tell me what Dallas has to do with the rest of the state.



VentureForth said:


> What Texas IS against is spending MILLIONS of dollars on an infrastructure that no one will use.


Are you really talking about the same state that is in the process of bailing out poorly conceived, illogically constructed, and extremely expensive private toll roads with public taxpayer debt relief?



VentureForth said:


> Texas just isn't as stupid as Bill Richardson...


Please tell me more about the incredible genius of Rick Perry, Greg Abbot, Ted Cruz, and Ken Paxton.



VentureForth said:


> With the TRE, a HUGE Dart system, The A Train, the Heartland Flyer, the Texas Eagle, and Sunset Limited, I would hardly call Texas "Anti Passenger Rail".


Maybe that's because you casually deflect honest questions with irrational nonsense and intentionally twist the facts to fit an inherently dishonest position.


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## Palmetto (May 9, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


His home state isn't much better, either, by the way. They've been talking about commuter rail out of Atlanta for who knows how long.


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## Bob Dylan (May 9, 2016)

Yep, gotta agree that Georgia isn't exactly New York or California when it comes to Rail!

But with the exception of Senator Kay Bailey Hutichison, who is greatly missed, and the DFW Metroplex Politicians (including an AU Member!), Texas is hopeless when it comes to any kind of Rail.

This includes Austin and San Antonio, supposedly two Progressive cities in a State that vies with Alabama, Georgia and Ohio as those that have the most anti-Rail Politicians!


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## me_little_me (May 9, 2016)

As someone who lived in one of those small communities south of Cruces for 12 years and who still has friends there, I say it is a waste to spend the money on studies as it will never happen. Not in the 21st century.


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## VentureForth (May 10, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Go to San Antonio, where passenger rail is uniquely restricted from receiving public funding or even the use of public land, and tell me what Dallas has to do with the rest of the state.


If that's what the people want.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Are you really talking about the same state that is in the process of bailing out poorly conceived, illogically constructed, and extremely expensive private toll roads with public taxpayer debt relief?


If you're talking about SH 130:



> “The filing will have no financial impact on the state of Texas,” Orol said. “It’s business as usual for our customers, employees, vendors, and surrounding communities during these proceedings.”


No one can predict usership.
How 'bout them states up in the Northeast who have huge tax burdens and STILL have to pay tolls just about everywhere they go? I mean Boston, the Bastion of Liberalism did GREAT with the Big Dig, didn't they?



Devil's Advocate said:


> Please tell me more about the incredible genius of Rick Perry, Greg Abbot, Ted Cruz, and Ken Paxton.


I dunno... But since Ann Richardson, residents seem to be pretty happy re-electing conservatives over and over and over and over and... 



Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe that's because you casually deflect honest questions with irrational nonsense and intentionally twist the facts to fit an inherently dishonest position.


Actually, I was being quite relevant to the OP's position on commuter rail, not deflecting, making comparative notes as to why Texas shouldn't be in the business of failing commuter rail lines.
If the New Mexico Railrunner (of which I'm a huge fan, despite only having seen phase one implemented in person) could have been more successful, my thinking could be skewed. But we're not talking about connecting huge population centers here. El Paso is huge, but not LC.

I think it's a shame that there isn't better rail connectivity between Dallas - Austin - San Antonio - Houston. You can blame Southwest Airlines. A lot of good that'll do ya. But if and when the Florida Briteline becomes successful, you will see a renewed interest in intrastate rail (but that's not what started this conversation).

Texas isn't Anti-Rail - they are against taxing heavily and spending foolishly. They aren't perfect at it, but show me who is.


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## John Bredin (May 10, 2016)

> Texas isn't Anti-Rail - they are against taxing heavily and spending foolishly. They aren't perfect at it, but show me who is.


If Texas isn't anti-rail but only excessive public spending (though entirely coincidentally  highway projects are never excessive, only rail and transit), explain the opposition to the privately-funded Texas HSR proposal.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 10, 2016)

VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Go to San Antonio, where passenger rail is uniquely restricted from receiving public funding or even the use of public land, and tell me what Dallas has to do with the rest of the state.
> ...


It's really more that the rural folks and politicians don't want passenger rail but unfortunately that's all it takes.



VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Are you really talking about the same state that is in the process of bailing out poorly conceived, illogically constructed, and extremely expensive private toll roads with public taxpayer debt relief?
> ...


Texas requested and eventually secured $400 million of American taxpayer money for use in building into SH130 that is now at risk of repayment, which by definition includes Texan taxpayers as well.



VentureForth said:


> No one can predict usership.


In reality it was widely panned and predicted to fail from the start. I live in the target area for this project and everyone I knew in South and Central Texas took one look at the distant routing and said it made no sense for folks traveling between major cities where most of the traffic originates. Lo and behold the project failed to gain anywhere near enough traction to be economically viable.



VentureForth said:


> How 'bout them states up in the Northeast who have huge tax burdens and STILL have to pay tolls just about everywhere they go? I mean Boston, the Bastion of Liberalism did GREAT with the Big Dig, didn't they?


What on earth does any of that have to do with passenger rail in Texas?



VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Please tell me more about the incredible genius of Rick Perry, Greg Abbot, Ted Cruz, and Ken Paxton.
> ...


Yeah, Texans are happy to elect some of the least intelligent and most unreasonable politicians in the country. Maybe in your view intelligence is determined by political ideology rather than mental prowess, but that's not how I see it.



VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe that's because you casually deflect honest questions with irrational nonsense and intentionally twist the facts to fit an inherently dishonest position.
> ...


In reality your response is nothing but another course in dishonest deflection from someone who either has no idea what they're talking about or thinks their audience is too ignorant to see the fundamental flaws in their logic. Keep talking nonsense and I'll keep poking holes in your erroneous pseudologic.


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 10, 2016)

VentureForth said:


> I mean Boston, the Bastion of Liberalism did GREAT with the Big Dig, didn't they?


I think long term Boston did pretty well by the big dig, they got rid of a huge elevated freeway, gained parkland and are getting transit extensions (slowly but surely, very slowly) and improvements.


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## VentureForth (May 10, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> In reality your response is nothing but another course in dishonest deflection from someone who either has no idea what they're talking about or thinks their audience is too ignorant to see the fundamental flaws in their logic. Keep talking nonsense and I'll keep poking holes in your erroneous pseudologic.


I'm thrilled to know you are the most smartest person in the whole wide world and sorry to hear that everyone who disagrees with you are amongst the least intelligent and unreasonable. If mental prowess is defined by your acceptance, then I'm happy to be ignorant.

The point of this thread is primarily that there is discussion about a possible rail link between Las Cruces and El Paso.

Whereas the citizens of New Mexico are gung ho about the idea, Texan's are not.

Texans were declared to be anti-passenger rail.

I submitted that they aren't. Texans are against wasteful spending without benefit.

If you can show some economic sense why a rail link between a town of 100,000 and another city of 600,000 would benefit a group of people large enough to make it viable, I'm all ears.

Meanwhile, as much as I enjoy Amtrak, the Heartland Flyer is a FAILURE. I'm quite surprised it's lasted this long.


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## Chaz (May 10, 2016)

Since Boston's transportation issues are mentioned in this thread...

Interesting article - just out - on how by getting back to basics and leaving out frills may just allow Boston's Green Line extension to proceed.

Contrapunally the author mentions the extravagant new station just opened in Lower Manhattan.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2016/05/10/frequent-service-not-escalator-access-is-what-attracts-transit-users/


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## Devil's Advocate (May 10, 2016)

VentureForth said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > In reality your response is nothing but another course in dishonest deflection from someone who either has no idea what they're talking about or thinks their audience is too ignorant to see the fundamental flaws in their logic. Keep talking nonsense and I'll keep poking holes in your erroneous pseudologic.
> ...


I'm by no means the smartest person in the world but I will say that I have lived in Texas for many years and I do not suffer foolishness lightly. If you're going to tell me how my own state works you better know what you're talking about. Echo chamber soundbites, sliding goalposts, and revisionist history will draw my ire every single time.


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## VentureForth (May 11, 2016)

Pretty familiar with Texas, too. Lived in Longview for 4 years and Greenville for 8, not to mention Irving was my stateside address the whole time I grew up in Japan. Met Kay Bailey and John Cornyn (who spent a year or so at my high school in Japan). Both understood the importance of mass transit, with Cornyn a bit more weary of how to make it viable.


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## jis (May 11, 2016)

John Cornyn is actually very supportive of the Crescent Star proposal and pushing a bit for it. This is the proposal to run a section of the Crescent from meridian to Fort Worth. But he is exceedingly hampered by the party that is in complete disarray and a state of confusion about everything at present. If Trump truly becomes the leader of the party it might start looking much more like the Democratic party when it comes to infrastructure investment, or it might simply disintegrate. We'll have to wait and see how it evolves.


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## John Bredin (May 11, 2016)

jis said:


> John Cornyn is actually very supportive of the Crescent Star proposal and pushing a bit for it. This is the proposal to run a section of the Crescent from meridian to Fort Worth. But he is exceedingly hampered by the party that is in complete disarray and a state of confusion about everything at present. _If Trump truly becomes the leader of the party it might start looking much more like the Democratic party when it comes to infrastructure investment_, or it might simply disintegrate. We'll have to wait and see how it evolves.


The faction of ideologues who consider passenger rail and transit automatically a boondoggle will not change their minds merely because Trump may think otherwise.


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## jis (May 11, 2016)

John Bredin said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > John Cornyn is actually very supportive of the Crescent Star proposal and pushing a bit for it. This is the proposal to run a section of the Crescent from meridian to Fort Worth. But he is exceedingly hampered by the party that is in complete disarray and a state of confusion about everything at present. _If Trump truly becomes the leader of the party it might start looking much more like the Democratic party when it comes to infrastructure investment_, or it might simply disintegrate. We'll have to wait and see how it evolves.
> ...


The point is that may or may not matter depending on how much coherence of position is maintained by the rag tag circus known as the Republican Party today. It is well known that it is only a relatively small group of ideologues that have been holding everyone hostage. Will they be able to wield the same kind of power after the elections? There is no way to know, because everything is getting turned topsy turvy.


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## gswager (May 11, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> I've always wondered why the Sunset is routed along the border instead of through Las Cruses? UP runs it's Freights that way, perhaps they could be flip-flopped and the Sunset would benefit by running through a Growing College town instead of the Ghost towns it serves in the desert!???


It's the geographical location. It has really steep mountains starting just north of El Paso, all the way north, somewhere south of Santa Fe. It's the Great Rift Valley where Rio Grande flows. So building track through Las Cruces is nearly impossible.


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## DesertDude (May 12, 2016)

But there *is* track from El Paso to Las Cruces; it's a BNSF corridor. If it wasn't for the lack of seamless dispatching (two other host railroads own track from Las Cruces to Deming) and the possible poor track conditions of the shortline, then rerouting the SL via Las Cruces would be a no-brainer.


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## MARC Rider (May 17, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > I mean Boston, the Bastion of Liberalism did GREAT with the Big Dig, didn't they?
> ...


I have to agree. Every time I go to Boston, I use the Big Dig. By the way, there are no tolls on the Big Dig itself, only on the tunnel connecting it to Logan Airport.


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## me_little_me (Jun 5, 2016)

gswager said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > I've always wondered why the Sunset is routed along the border instead of through Las Cruses? UP runs it's Freights that way, perhaps they could be flip-flopped and the Sunset would benefit by running through a Growing College town instead of the Ghost towns it serves in the desert!???
> ...


Huh? As someone that lived just south of Cruces for 12 years and who had to drive to Cruces to go shopping and drive to El Paso to go to work, methinks you have your hills in the wrong place. The Organ Mountains are on the east side of Cruces. They go north and east, not south so the valley where I lived by the Rio Grande is flat and easily accessible. In fact, the rails are already there. I-10 is also along that route and I never had to go over a mountain in either direction between home and those two cities.


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