# What does a train do in heavy snow?



## Casinocim

I saw the storm warnings for New Mexico last night and thought it would be fun to be on the SWC. Mentioned this to my mom and she asked how the train handles going through the snow.

Can the SWC go through inches of snow? Does it have to wait until tracks are cleared?

Then started thinking would it be fun or a nightmare of delays?


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## Ryan

Trains are really heavy and do quite well in the snow. Train stopping snow is generally measured in feet, not inches.


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## PRR 60

Casinocim said:


> I saw the storm warnings for New Mexico last night and thought it would be fun to be on the SWC. Mentioned this to my mom and she asked how the train handles going through the snow.
> 
> Can the SWC go through inches of snow? Does it have to wait until tracks are cleared?
> 
> Then started thinking would it be fun or a nightmare of delays?


The biggest issue with trains and snow is not physically getting the train to plow through the snow (unless we're talking feet of snow), but the effects of the snow on electric power for signals and grade crossings and whether the snow or ice has caused problems with switches. Also an issue is getting crews to the train, particularly if a train is delayed to a degree that requires a new crew to take over at other than a normal crew change point.

If a storm is really bad, as in blizzard white-out conditions, then Amtrak elect might hold or cancel the train in order to ensure passenger safety. If anything were to happen to a train in a remote location in a true blizzard, getting help there could be difficult. The owner-railroad, in this case BNSF, also has a say. They may elect to shut down the tracks rather than risk having a train head out in a really bad storm.


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## Devil's Advocate

It's rare to have a passenger train completely stranded by snow but it does happen occasionally. Although these days it's probable that the dispatchers would simply hold the train short instead of sending it along like they may have done in the old days.


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## Anderson

On my first Christmas trip, we got slowed by lake effect snow near Buffalo on the LSL. So it _can_ slow things down, but I think that has more to do with _all_ of the trains getting slowed and slotting getting shot to hell than it does actual operational trouble.

I've actually sorta wanted to ride in an Acela during a decent snow, just for what I suspect would be an impressive show.


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## Casinocim

Thanks for the info everyone!


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## Mackensen

Extreme cold can be a problem too. I once lost four hours in Devils Lake, ND (four hours I'll never get back) because of a frozen switch.


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## Ispolkom

Two years ago I rode the Empire Builder from Minot to St. Paul on a night where a three-day blizzard had closed the interstates across the entire state, closed the Minot airport to any travel, led the state highway patrol to recommend no travel anywhere in the state and forced me to walk to the depot, since there was no getting a car through the 4-5 foot snowdrifts across the streets. The day before the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force had to ride a snowplow down to the train station to catch the westbound Empire Builder, since the airbase was closed.

The train, lead by a BNSF freight locomotive with snowplow and three Amtrak P42s, had no problem getting through the snow, but you could feel the cars bunch up and then stretch out again as the train punched through the snowdrifts. We were an hour late out of Minot, and two hours late to St. Paul, but I've been later in good weather. Since it was the Christmas weekend, I'm sure that there were many fewer freight trains in the system, easing our passage.


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## the_traveler

I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! (In a week!




And sleeping at the airport!



)


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## MetraUPWest

Heavy falling snow can cause electrical ground faults in the locomotive's traction and dynamic braking systems occasionally as well, they're easily reset though.


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## EB_OBS

Ispolkom said:


> Two years ago I rode the Empire Builder from Minot to St. Paul on a night where a three-day blizzard had closed the interstates across the entire state, closed the Minot airport to any travel, led the state highway patrol to recommend no travel anywhere in the state and forced me to walk to the depot, since there was no getting a car through the 4-5 foot snowdrifts across the streets. The day before the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force had to ride a snowplow down to the train station to catch the westbound Empire Builder, since the airbase was closed.
> 
> The train, lead by a BNSF freight locomotive with snowplow and three Amtrak P42s, had no problem getting through the snow, but you could feel the cars bunch up and then stretch out again as the train punched through the snowdrifts. We were an hour late out of Minot, and two hours late to St. Paul, but I've been later in good weather. Since it was the Christmas weekend, I'm sure that there were many fewer freight trains in the system, easing our passage.


Boy wasn't that the winter? There were cars and trucks that were completely buried in the Minot depot parking lot. Before they gave up trying to clear the parking lot the maintenance crew had built up a mountain of snow about 20 feet high. That was crazy.


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## Ispolkom

EB_OBS said:


> Boy wasn't that the winter? There were cars and trucks that were completely buried in the Minot depot parking lot. Before they gave up trying to clear the parking lot the maintenance crew had built up a mountain of snow about 20 feet high. That was crazy.


And that wasn't as snowy as last winter...

We head to Minot on #7 on Friday night. This Christmas Minot has bare ground and highs in the 30s. That's just weird.


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## SarahZ

the_traveler said:


> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! (In a week!
> 
> 
> 
> And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.


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## Devil's Advocate

Sorcha said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
Click to expand...

Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.


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## AlanB

> What does a train do in heavy snow?


It turns white! :lol:


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## GG-1

AlanB said:


> What does a train do in heavy snow?
> 
> 
> 
> It turns white! :lol:
Click to expand...

Except in NYC, because of the slush.  :giggle: :lol:

Aloha


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## SarahZ

Texas Sunset said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.
Click to expand...

That is true. I should have qualified my statement. We leave from Chicago, so we have multiple options if Amtrak is delayed/canceled.


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## Exiled in Express

Ispolkom said:


> We head to Minot on #7 on Friday night. This Christmas Minot has bare ground and highs in the 30s. That's just weird.


Came back to town last weekend by air and the pilot announced it as believe it or not 45 degree Minneapolis. I and seemingly 150 of our neighbors will be joining you Friday night, going to be a packed and hopefully timely train.


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## Shortline

Sorcha said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! (In a week!
> 
> 
> 
> And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
Click to expand...


Doesnt always work-I had a trip back to CHI from Minot last Feb, where the Builder was late 19 hours due to snow. I went back to bed, woke up the next morning, and caught a Delta flight to Ohare befoer the Builder even GOT to Minot. No more business travel for me on Amtrak unfortunately, having to bite the bullet and buy a last minute plane ticket cured me!


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## AlanB

GG-1 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does a train do in heavy snow?
> 
> 
> 
> It turns white! :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except in NYC, because of the slush.  :giggle: :lol:
> 
> Aloha
Click to expand...

Hey, even here in NYC the snow is white when it first falls. Depending on the amount and the temps, it may take a day or two before we have slush.


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## Bob Dylan

AlanB said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does a train do in heavy snow?
> 
> 
> 
> It turns white! :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except in NYC, because of the slush.  :giggle: :lol:
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, even here in NYC the snow is white when it first falls. Depending on the amount and the temps, it may take a day or two before we have slush.
Click to expand...

Is that cause all the Snow Removal Workers call in Sick when it snows in the City???!1 :lol: :lol: :lol: (Mayor Bloomberg just hates that!!!!)


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## me_little_me

The real question you should ask yourself is "what should I do if the train gets snowbound". Here are some measures:


Ask the SCA if there is someone named Hercule Poirot in your car. If so, ask the conductor to move you to another car because Agatha Christie might make you the one whose murder Hercule has to investigate.
Ask The LSA about food availability. If he/she says it is limited, lock your door (or lock yourself in a restroom if in coach) to protect yourself and look around for tasty passengers. Do NOT encourage the frindship of anyone carrying around a knife and fork or hatchet.
If you are expecting snow, be sure to keep the spare firewood in your carry-on luggage. It is rare that conductors will be willing to go to the baggage car to get yours unless he/she is really cold.
Amtrak rules prohibit soliciting contracts for freezer storage service. It would not be a good idea to get thrown off the train at that point for violating rules.
Don't order the ice cream for dessert at dinner time. It will never thaw.
Don't be suckered by someone on the train trying to sell you cold sore medicine. While it helps cold sores, it does NOT keep you warm.
Don't let your husband/boyfriend convince you he is being a gentlemen by telling you it is "Women and children first" when volunteers are needed to look for rescue.
When boarding, claim your St. Bernard is a service animal just in case. But don't hang a bottle of Tequila around its neck especially if it is just a stuffed animal.It will never fly.
Bring a shovel as carry-on. Better yet, bring a bulldozer or Sno-Cat.


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## A.J.

just last night I had a rather vivid dream about being snowbound on a train. the sleeping compartments were beautiful, old-fashioned cars with wood paneling. it was a marvelous dream!


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## Texan Eagle

Anderson said:


> I've actually sorta wanted to ride in an Acela during a decent snow, just for what I suspect would be an impressive show.


Oh yeah! I had the opportunity to ride a Northeast Regional from Phila to DC in January this year after my flight was cancelled by Delta two days in a row due to a heavy snowstorm that hit the entire Northeast. Though not Acela, here are two video I took showing pretty close to that, my NE Regional merrily sprinting at 100-120 mph through Pennsylvania and Delaware right through inches of snow on the tracks! It may not be clearly visible in the video but there was snow flying all around and the view from the window was just amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkJQBvY-50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkeBNBG80no

Well, its a different story that an hour after these videos were taken the HHP-8 decided to die in the middle of nowhere between BWI Airport and Washington and after waiting in the cold of half hour we were "rescued" by the Carolinian that came and stood on adjacent track and everyone hopped across to that train


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## the_traveler

Texas Sunset said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.
Click to expand...

If an airport is shut down, is is very likely that all flights on all carriers will be cancelled also!



And airlines no longer pay (or give vouchers) for hotels! And if it is snowing so bad that an airport is shut down, would you really want to rent a car and drive on the snowy highways to your destination?





I remember a few years back when MKA was shut down by heavy snow. The smart people who were going to STL got there that day!



How?



They didn't drive - they took Amtrak, and arrived on time!





And just because it's sunny an 80º in SAS and LAX, that doesn't mean the flight could not be cancelled due to snow! That flight may be arriving from JFK, and JFK is shut down due to snow!


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## PRR 60

the_traveler said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If an airport is shut down, is is very likely that all flights on all carriers will be cancelled also!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And airlines no longer pay (or give vouchers) for hotels! And if it is snowing so bad that an airport is shut down, would you really want to rent a car and drive on the snowy highways to your destination?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember a few years back when MKA was shut down by heavy snow. The smart people who were going to STL got there that day!
> 
> 
> 
> How?
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't drive - they took Amtrak, and arrived on time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just because it's sunny an 80º in SAS and LAX, that doesn't mean the flight could not be cancelled due to snow! That flight may be arriving from JFK, and JFK is shut down due to snow!
Click to expand...

Airports are rarely "shut down" by snow, as defined as no runways open for arrivals or departures. It is usually the airlines that pre-emptively cancel flights due to snow to avoid getting equipment stuck there. During major snow storms, the FAA ATC website will often show airports open with minimal delays, when the reality is that the absence of delays is due to no flights using the airport. While airlines do not usually offer vouchers for weather-related delays, airlines still give vouchers for delays due to mechanical, crew availability, or other issues within their control.

My problem with using Amtrak long distance trains in winter is that the train reliability is affected by the weather all along the route. A blizzard in the Sierras or a rockslide in the Rockies can cripple the Zephyr, but will have no impact on a flight from San Francisco to Chicago. If the point of the travel is riding the train, and you build your itinerary with lots of cushion and alternate plans, then winter train rides can be fun. However, if I really have to get somewhere and I only need transportation, then I avoid Amtrak LD's in winter.

Two years ago my wife and I were heading from Philadelphia to San Francisco. The day we were leaving a major blizzard was moving up the east coast. We got out less than two hours before the storm hit (I was sweating bullets all day). When we got to SFO, the terminal was a zoo. All the red-eye's heading for the east coast were cancelled. Boy, were we lucky, but at least once we got off the ground, were in the clear. We flew over the storm while having dinner. Even if Amtrak had been a viable transportation option for PHL-SFO, it would not have mattered. The storm was in the path of the westbound trains and Amtrak had already cancelled everything heading that way.

[smartA**]

I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.

[/smartA**] :lol:


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## Anderson

Texas Sunset said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.
Click to expand...

True, but most "layover cities" (CHI, WAS, NYP, LAX) have stations in downtown amidst piles of business hotels.

As to business travel on Amtrak...I'd happily do so in the East, but once you get into those Western run-from-CA/WA/OR trains, it's probably too chancy.


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## Devil's Advocate

the_traveler said:


> If an airport is shut down, is is very likely that all flights on all carriers will be cancelled also!


I have hundreds of individual flights under my belt and yet I can count the number of times I been "stranded" on one hand. Even in those cases there were other carriers, other routes, and other airports that could still get me where I was going.



the_traveler said:


> And airlines no longer pay (or give vouchers) for hotels!


A couple years ago I received a hotel voucher three meal vouchers and a $600 flight voucher for being delayed out of SFO on UA when it was the airline's own issue that caused it. When it's the not the airline's problem and no other in-network options are available I can either purchase another ticket on another carrier or travel to another airport or get a room or rent a car or what have you. These options are likely to be expensive but they do exist.

These days San Antonio's Amtrak station does have hotel rooms and taxis nearby, but that's about it. There are no other trains or other carriers with alternative routes that can get me to wherever I'm going. Amtrak is the only game in town for passenger rail. They only have between one and three trains a day, none of which would work as a practical substitute for either of the others. In at least two directions there are only three trains a week, so your options are even more limited. When was the last time you saw a million-plus sized city with a single airport that had no more than three flights a day? Our airport has _hundreds of flights_ a day for Pete's sake.



the_traveler said:


> And if it is snowing so bad that an airport is shut down, would you really want to rent a car and drive on the snowy highways to your destination?


Where I live we only get super snowy highways maybe once a decade and our airport probably hasn't closed due to heavy snow since the 1980's. 



the_traveler said:


> I remember a few years back when MKA was shut down by heavy snow. The smart people who were going to STL got there that day! How? They didn't drive - they took Amtrak, and arrived on time!


I've actually had pretty good luck with Amtrak myself, but I almost never use them when I (or anyone traveling with me) _must_ be at a specific place at a specific time because it's quite obvious that Amtrak simply cannot provide that level of service. Airlines sometimes fail at this as well, but even when they do I'm likely to only be off by a few hours instead of a few days as may be the case with a cancelled train. There are many reasons to travel by rail, but having lots of alternative routing options and local resources available to you isn't one of them. Well, maybe in CHI or LAX or WDC it is, but for most of us it's not. I'm not trying to say everyone should fly or that flying is universally better than rail, I'm just saying we shouldn't give Amtrak credit for service levels it can't actually live up to. That's all. ^_^


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## the_traveler

PRR 60 said:


> [smartA**]
> 
> I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.
> 
> [/smartA**] :lol:


OK, my bad!



I used the Amtrak code for the airport, not the FAA code for the airport (which just happens to be the same as the Amtrak station downtown)!


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## Devil's Advocate

Hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread but I thought this video was worth the trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Yew1UQuQE

I must admit I really find this whole event rather interesting.

These Alco PA's were some of the most impressive and powerful _looking_ locomotives I'd ever seen back when I was a child.

It didn't matter that I'd only seen them in photos and made into models, the look was still impressive nonetheless.

Seeing these locomotives conquered by snow storms in the Sierras makes for a rather interesting story in my view.

If I were wealthy beyond reason I would consider fully restoring or even recreating some of these locomotives and running them through the Sierras on sightseeing tours.


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## fillyjonk

IMHO, ice is a greater problem. Two of the most difficult Amtrak trips I took involved ice: Christmas 2000, right after the East Texas/Arkansas ice storm. We were 12 hours late. (Partly because a freight had derailed ahead of us and it was a Sunday, and apparently it was hard to get a crew out to clean it up. Then our train's crew "timed out" at an "odd" place (not near a station) and we had to sit and wait on a new crew to arrive).

January 2010 - the train I was in (TE 21) hit a patch of ice in STL, the engines and the front sleeper (which I was in) derailed. Not badly; no one was hurt. But they pulled that equipment and sent all of us sleeper pax to coach for the rest of the trip. And we were 9 hours late getting in to my destination...

I also don't like flooding; had an 18 hour bustitution (unexpected) because of flooding one spring. I don't recommend emergency bustitutions. If I were doing it again, I'd rent a car and drive it myself.


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## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Airports are rarely "shut down" by snow, as defined as no runways open for arrivals or departures. It is usually the airlines that pre-emptively cancel flights due to snow to avoid getting equipment stuck there. During major snow storms, the FAA ATC website will often show airports open with minimal delays, when the reality is that the absence of delays is due to no flights using the airport.


Actually we have the famous passenger bill of rights to thank for this pre-emptive cancellation thing too. Before that 3 hour limit law airlines used to try a little harder to maintain service. But now the risk is too high. So they just pack up and sit it out as soon as they hear of an adverse weather report.

It is sort of like Amtrak having to deal with a law that says you will be fined hundreds of dollars per passenger if your train gets stuck for more than 3 hours away from a station. The rational thing to do would be to discontinue service when there is s slight chance that a train will get stuck for more than 3 hours. Coming to think of it, to some extent Amtrak already does that with the help of the host railroads.



> While airlines do not usually offer vouchers for weather-related delays, airlines still give vouchers for delays due to mechanical, crew availability, or other issues within their control.


They do indeed!



the_traveler said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [smartA**]
> 
> I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.
> 
> [/smartA**] :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, my bad!
> 
> 
> 
> I used the Amtrak code for the airport, not the FAA code for the airport (which just happens to be the same as the Amtrak station downtown)!
Click to expand...

IATA code. FAA is not in the airport or airline code business.

IATA has 3 letter codes for airports and even some train stations for which airlines can issue tickets on IATA standard compliant ticket system (e.g. JFK, EWR), and 2 letter codes for airlines and train operators(e.g. UA for United, 2V for Amtrak). ICAO on the other hand has 4 letter codes for airports (e.g. KJFK, KEWR).


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## George Harris

jis said:


> ICAO on the other hand has 4 letter codes for airports (e.g. KJFK, KEWR).


For which the default thought in my brain is that these that begin with K must be radio or TV stations in the western US. :lol:

Sometimes you can get so really long delays on international flights. During my periods of work in East Asia I had several nights courtesy of the airline, usually Northwest. My top one of those was two nights in hotels on a trip from Memphis to Taipei, one night in Seattle and the other in Tokyo.


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