# USA Today on Bus Travel (and Train Travel)



## rickycourtney (Apr 20, 2014)

USA Today: Bus travel gives other modes run for the money



> Buses are starting to give airlines, trains, and even cars a run for their money. With spiffed up coaches, internet reservations, and often significantly cheaper fares, bus travel is becoming an increasingly popular alternative to flying, taking the train and even driving your own car, according to a new study released Monday.
> 
> "It's a . . . mode of travel that's really shaking things up,'' says Joseph Schwieterman, director of DePaul University's Chaddick Institute which conducted the study. "The ability to hop on a bus for half the price of the next cheapest option is a game changer.''
> 
> ...





> Train travel is surging as well. A trip on Amtrak costs 55% to 73% less on average than an airline ticket, according to the DePaul University study.
> 
> And Amtrak is seeing record ridership. Last year, it ferried 31.6 million passengers, the most in its history, says Amtrak spokesman Craig Schulz. Since 2006, ridership in the northeast corridor has increased 21%, while it has risen 38% during that period on routes of less than 750 miles across the country, Schulz says.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 21, 2014)

I guess Greyhound would probably disagree with this article. They say that they are focused on competing with cars rather than with trains or planes. But they also have to fend off against other bus companies, obviously. I say this because Greyhound's biggest hubs are at Richmond and Dallas.


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## Eric S (Apr 21, 2014)

I think this study from the researcher at DePaul University has been released/updated every year or so for the last few years (maybe 5 or so). Initially it mostly focused on Megabus/BoltBus-type operations. Sounds like it may have been broadened a bit this time to also look at Greyhound and Amtrak, although I have not looked at this year's version.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 21, 2014)

I don't think DePaul University did a great job on this, they seem to be focusing on prices more than anything and not really choosing the right markets. For example, they talk about attracting younger passengers with buses, yet Greyhound doesn't seem to have that many young passengers. I'd say the mean age of Greyhound passengers is lower than Amtrak, but not lower than cars or planes.

Buses have been rising with popularity among families, and are especially effective in places of low congestion. I've seen many families with kids travelling on the Reno-Salt Lake City and Reno-Denver routes, possibly because the kids get bored on the desert and they would rather plug in to the outlets and play a game or two.

As with planes, airlines been cutting service in Reno for years, planes are in a quagmire that they can't get out of because pretty much the only reason someone wants to fly is to get somewhere fast, unless you're dealing with a rare plane with airplane enthusiasts. Punctual Greyhound overnight service to Salt Lake City saves time anyway and is very popular, especially with almost no delays.

JMO.


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## Eric S (Apr 21, 2014)

I think it's probably worth noting that the focus of this study over the years has been more the Megabus/BoltBus type operations, rather than Greyhound and similar regional intercity operations. Perhaps the demographics of the Megabus/BoltBus/etc are different from Greyhound/Jefferson Lines/etc? (Just a suggestion, not something I can back up with data)


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 22, 2014)

Eric S said:


> I think it's probably worth noting that the focus of this study over the years has been more the Megabus/BoltBus type operations, rather than Greyhound and similar regional intercity operations. Perhaps the demographics of the Megabus/BoltBus/etc are different from Greyhound/Jefferson Lines/etc? (Just a suggestion, not something I can back up with data)


I think that's one of the big flaws of this survey, they assume that all buses are created equal and all bus companies are created equal. They could not be more wrong. They assume that Greyhound is doing the same as Megabus/BoltBus. You are right, Eric, Greyhound is not Megabus, but then again they do own BoltBus.

I'd say Greyhound passengers are different from Megabus, BoltBus, Jefferson, etc. Jefferson has a lot of stops along every route ("milk runs") and also run their "College Connection". OTOH, it's almost impossible to find college kids at the Greyhound Reno, whereas Megabus is packed with college kids.

Saying that families don't ride Greyhound could not be more false, on my latest trip I saw three babies on Greyhound, saw none on Amtrak, and never seen any on Megabus, then again I haven't ridden Megabus lately because I got angry at them due to overrated, uncomfortable buses.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 22, 2014)

I think the article brings up an interesting point... on shorter trips of 100-500 miles... bus travel (and train travel) is giving air travel and cars a run for their money.

I ran into this first hand myself with a recent trip from Seattle to Vancouver... Alaska Airlines is charging a whopping $330 for the air shuttle, Amtrak Cascades was $72, Quick Shuttle is $51, Greyhound is $36 and BoltBus was $29. According to a quick calculation on the AAA's website that trip would cost you about $50 in fuel.

In that case, BoltBus was a no-brainer. As a matter of fact, any of the other travel modes are a no-brainer compared to flying.

In terms of service, I agree with Eric and Swad, Greyhound provides a very different service than the low-cost, limited stop bus companies but I don't think it's right to see them as total enemies.

The younger generations (myself included) no longer have a stigma against the bus. Megabus and BoltBus have made it "cool" to take the bus (much like Amtrak is making it "cool" to take the train). It's a great way to travel on these shorter trips. I think that Greyhound is benefiting from a "halo effect" from these companies. Many people my age no longer cringe at the thought of taking a trip from say Seattle to Portland on a Greyhound.

But this all being said... I have a trip from Seattle to Los Angeles on Wednesday. I (like most people my age) will be flying because I don't want to spend 28 hours on a bus, no matter how nice it is.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm not saying Greyhound is fighting other bus companies all the time, they just have different demographics. A good example is for wanderlusters like me. I ride Greyhound most of the time, and I'm willing to take long trips if I get a free ticket from Road Rewards. Greyhound is great for people with wanderlust, because you can take short rides for the same rewards credit as a long ride, then use your free ticket on a long round-trip.

So if you have wanderlust, a two hour flights is "too quick", you want a 20-hour bus ride, just because it's a 20-hour bus ride. Can't do it all the time with Amtrak due to unflexible schedules, and if you really have wanderlust, the hum of the Detroit is probably better than the HVAC on Amtrak and people commontion. When you have wanderlust, I could describe it as you _want_ to be bored, you don't want to walk around, you don't want to talk with other passengers, you just wanna "ride for a while."


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## RichardK (Apr 26, 2014)

This is serious competition to air and train travel. The fare is not a threat to Greyhound or Megabus. It seems to be marketed as executive transportation, similar to Limoliner in the northeast.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/business/New-mega-bus-lets-your-ride-in-style-256388991.html


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 26, 2014)

But it's a plastic H3-45. Don't expect those things to last in line-haul. They're better than Van Hools or body-on-frame buses, but they are supposed to be low-mileage motorhomes, not intercity buses that run 130,000 miles a year.

You could outfit an Irizar PB with massive seats, a steward, and a restroom with shower, but it's still a junk bus. At least a H3-45 is a lot better than an Irizar PB, Van Hool's and even Setra's are better than an Irizar PB.


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## RichardK (Apr 26, 2014)

Is the H3-45 a Prevost?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 26, 2014)

Yes it's a Prevost, but the X3-45 is designed for intercity work and the H3-45 is designed as a motorhome or tour bus. If they're gonna buy from Prevost anyway, might as well buy a X3-45 instead. The H3-45 is sometimes used for intercity work due to their large cargo holds but do you really think the businessmen are going to lub big bags around?

If you want a highly-reliable and durable luxury bus, you could buy something like this: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/6337-1992MCI102DL3/#imgiframediv. I know it's old but it only has 140,180 miles since it's probably been only driving executives and directors around for a company. Of course you can order a new D4500CT with those same big seats that are produced by Amaya.


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2014)

RichardK said:


> This is serious competition to air and train travel. The fare is not a threat to Greyhound or Megabus. It seems to be marketed as executive transportation, similar to Limoliner in the northeast.
> 
> http://www.wfaa.com/news/business/New-mega-bus-lets-your-ride-in-style-256388991.html


Very nice! Thanks for posting! I always like to see something new start up like this...Looks like this is even plusher than LimoLiner....

It appears that if the 6 seat conference room is not reserved for exclusive group occupancy, than the seats will be sold individually, yielding 22 revenue seats per bus.

So at the listed $100. fare, a potential $2,200. gross per trip. Compare that if the bus had standard 56 seat layout, a fare of $39.29 would equal the same. Of course, you would have to add the cost of the steward(ess), the snacks, drinks, newspaper's, sound-cancelling headphones lent, etc....so the fare on the 56 seat bus could be a lot lower to yield the same profit.

The point made is that the operator's hope to tap the business traveler market, not compete with standard or low-cost bus carrier's, but I have to wonder how well that market will work out....LimoLiner is still around, but hasn't exactly been a runaway success...they haven't really grown from their original frequencies of service...

I'll be watching this with great interest.....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 27, 2014)

The problem is, none of the these new luxury startups have been that successful. None of them have really expanded after starting up. Whereas the cheaper regular service startups have exploded around the country. This is obviously targeting business travellers, however, I cannot understand why they are using H3-45's instead of X3-45's or a more suitable bus.

Greyhound has gathered business travellers on the Reno-San Francisco route, using D4505's.


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## railiner (Apr 27, 2014)

One 'near luxury' service is that provided by C&J Bus lines between Portsmouth, NH and New York City. They operate Prevost H3-45's on the route that feature comfortable 2 and 1 seating in ten rows for 30 roomy seats. They do not have an attendant, but do have a self-serve, stocked snack bar in the rear, with a Keurig Cup hot beverage dispenser, along with the usual Wifi, video's, 110v outlets, etc. They started with one daily roundtrip, but have doubled that, and even ran more schedules for the busy holidays.

They do seem to have an affluent-appearing clientele, and don't really compete with Greyhound, but rather airline passengers....

I have to agree that low-cost service is the most popular, and fastest growning segment of the industry....In the words of Jim Kerrigan, a former Greyhound CEO, "The bus is the bargain-basement of public transportation".

As for using H3-45's.....Their design has a lot of "curb-appeal" to prospective passenger's, with their tall, "Euro-look".....

And as you acknowledged, they have awesome baggage carrying capacity.....

My company has a large fleet of them, we have been using H3-40, H3-41, and H3-45's since 1994, with good results.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 27, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yes it's a Prevost, but the X3-45 is designed for intercity work and the H3-45 is designed as a motorhome or tour bus. If they're gonna buy from Prevost anyway, might as well buy a X3-45 instead. The H3-45 is sometimes used for intercity work due to their large cargo holds but do you really think the businessmen are going to lub big bags around?
> 
> If you want a highly-reliable and durable luxury bus, you could buy something like this: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/6337-1992MCI102DL3/#imgiframediv. I know it's old but it only has 140,180 miles since it's probably been only driving executives and directors around for a company. Of course you can order a new D4500CT with those same big seats that are produced by Amaya.


Swadian, as a bus historian you must be as blind as that bus's original owner! That bus didn't ferry any executives. If you look at the notes, it was owned by RAY CHARLES! At that price, I want it!


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## jebr (Apr 27, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The problem is, none of the these new luxury startups have been that successful. None of them have really expanded after starting up.


There's just not many markets for them to expand to, though. A "business traveler" bus would need to provide something that Amtrak or the airlines isn't (or at a price that Amtrak or the airlines isn't.) On a short-haul trip...say Philly - NYC or Chicago - Milwaukee, the trip isn't really long enough to really "need" the business class amenities for most people. That leaves, basically, the 3-4 hour markets (any longer and flying becomes faster) or shorter markets where the Amtrak schedule isn't very conducive. (For example, a buisness traveler from MSP - CHI almost certainly won't take a luxury bus for 8 hours...they'll fly in 3-4 instead.) Once you don't compete on the sheer bargain price of a bus, you start really limiting the markets you can go into because of the limitations of bus travel for most people.

As railiner quoted, the bus is the bargain-basement of public transportation. There's nothing wrong with that, but once you start removing that factor you really limit the amount of room you have to distinguish yourself as a transportation provider.


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## railiner (Apr 27, 2014)

jebr has made some valid points, but there are some markets that can sustain slightly longer routes. Again, I will cite C&J as an example.

http://www.ridecj.com/locations/new-york/new-york-city

Their trip is five hours in length.

One benefit of having an attendant on board is, that really appeals to those sending unaccompanied minors . There is a fair sized market for that, what with many split families, etc. That was true way back when Trailways ran 'Five Star Luxury Service' over many longer routes way back when.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 27, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it's a Prevost, but the X3-45 is designed for intercity work and the H3-45 is designed as a motorhome or tour bus. If they're gonna buy from Prevost anyway, might as well buy a X3-45 instead. The H3-45 is sometimes used for intercity work due to their large cargo holds but do you really think the businessmen are going to lub big bags around?
> ...


Hey, I didn't even read that! Well you know it could be fake, you never trust the Internet until you see it. But I think it could be true, because that DL3 is 22 years old, and a DL3 turns like a battleship, so the private-bus market for it isn't very big. You want a DL3 if you're gonna start a bus line, not drive it around for fun.



railiner said:


> jebr has made some valid points, but there are some markets that can sustain slightly longer routes. Again, I will cite C&J as an example.
> 
> http://www.ridecj.com/locations/new-york/new-york-city
> 
> ...


You ought to see this: http://www.angelfire.com/al3/biged1942/ADT-5Star_TT-A.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/al3/biged1942/ADT-5Star_TT-B.jpg

Wow, that's very frequent service indeed! As for C & J, look, they seem to have X3-45's, H3-45's, and D4500CT's. That's a well-mized fleet of buses. Not the standalone H3-45's that are been used by startups. Since the H3-45 is possibly the most expensive bus in the merket, not a good idea for an initial investment.

Think about LuxBusAmerica, why don't they start Las Vegas-Phoenix? Why doesn't RedCoach start Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville, to Savannah, etc? Then again, why doesn't Greyhound start faster Las Vegas-Phoenix service?

Anyway, I don't think it's a good idea to decrease bus seating lower than 2-2, I think making the best advantage of 2-2 is the best way to run a bus company. Greyhound still attracts a few business travellers from Reno to Salt Lake City with overnight service, using 2-2, you just need extra legroom, Wi-Fi, outlets, clean restrooms, and sometimes, footrests.

I think Greyhound could try to attract more business travellers by ordering D4505's with Torino VIP seats and put a snack bar in the back, no attendant needed.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 27, 2014)

railiner said:


> .....
> 
> I have to agree that low-cost service is the most popular, and fastest growning segment of the industry....In the words of Jim Kerrigan, a former Greyhound CEO, "The bus is the bargain-basement of public transportation".
> 
> ...


Jim Kerrigan? I've heard tons of bad about him, wasn't old enough back then to understand. I know Adirondack has been succesful with H3's, but as far as I know, ADI pax have more baggage than the average business traveller. And for looks, this thing don't look bad at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiQs2luv_28.

Perosnally, I think the oldie looks better: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13524009615/in/set-72157625959347317. But it's probably not that "curb-appealing".


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## RichardK (May 4, 2014)

Another story about Vonlane with video....

http://www.kvue.com/news/consumer/A-new-first-class-bus-service-wants-to-appeal-to-Central-Texas-business-travelers-257582401.html


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## railiner (May 4, 2014)

Very nice looking seats....I wish them well......


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