# Canadian on CP Toronto to Winnipeg ?



## Steve4031 (May 30, 2016)

This is a possibility according to don Phillips in the most recent issue of trains magazine. This was not online so I can't post a link.


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## Palmetto (May 30, 2016)

Most of the comments I've read are very positive about this news. Scenery is better on the CP than the CN on this segment.


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## Bob Dylan (May 30, 2016)

Excellent news, I hope they do it before my next trip on the Canadian.

( my Late Wife was from Thunder Bay,ON and the route from Sudbury to Thunder Bay along Lake Superior is Much Superior to the current ".Northern Route". 

Next, the Winnipeg to Vancouver segment needs to be rerouted through Calgary and Banff ,theres really Outstanding scenery through the Rockies on this route!


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## NS VIA Fan (May 30, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Next, the Winnipeg to Vancouver segment needs to be rerouted through Calgary and Banff ,theres really Outstanding scenery through the Rockies on this route!


Not at the expense of the current Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton-Jasper-Vancouver route.

If you want to see the outstanding scenery of the Calgary-Banff-Vancouver route......just ride the Rocky Mountaineer!


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## Bob Dylan (May 30, 2016)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Next, the Winnipeg to Vancouver segment needs to be rerouted through Calgary and Banff ,theres really Outstanding scenery through the Rockies on this route!
> ...


I know the Loonie is down right now but the Mountaineer is too Rich for my Blood!


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## Steve4031 (May 30, 2016)

I would love an all CP route but would enjoy a CP/CN route as planned.


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## railiner (May 31, 2016)

If they are thinking about restoring the Canadian to its former all-CP route......well then they might as well extend it to Montreal as well.....


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## KwikEddie (Jun 1, 2016)

Grew up in Winnipeg in the 60's and took the train often to either Vancouver or Ottawa to visit relatives. It was the days when an unaccompanied minor was some guy travelling alone from Sudbury. ( obscure pun). I did get to do both CN and CP west and much perfered the southern route. I never had a chance to take the CP route east. Years later I was a long distance truck driver and for several years did Vancouver to Montreal/Toronto. Although the two main Trans Canada routes do not exactly follow the railways east of Winnipeg they follow much the same topography as the respective Hwys 11 and 17 in Ontario. The northern route is still needed as a passenger route as many of the small villages and flag stops still don't have other reliable means of transportation especially in the winter. It would be nice if they could run on both lines on an alternating schedule as this would encourage more return trips. It might even allow them to up the frequency from twice a week in the winter. I would also vote to change the route west as the CP route is spectacular. Its a shame that it is restricted to a very expensive tourist train. I also have a personel interest in that I travel from Vancouver to Calgary on a regular basis and really do not like flying. This leaves me with a 10 hour car trip which although goes through the same route, just doesn't do it judtice. With the exception of missing the summit of the Rogers Pass due to the tunnels the rail line is often well above the valley bottoms as it trys to keep the grades constant. I would recommend to anyone that thinks that they can't afford the Rocky Mountaineer to try and save up for a rail trip of a lifetime. My last memory I'll share is one as an eight year old boy travelling with his grandfather in a roomette from Wpg to Van via the CP line. To this day I still remember the silver service in the dining car with the white suited stewards. Its an experience that far too many of our children will never get to experience. The 36 hours together cemented a relationship that lasted till his passing even though we lived 1500 miles apart.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jun 1, 2016)

railiner said:


> If they are thinking about restoring the Canadian to its former all-CP route......well then they might as well extend it to Montreal as well.....


Impossible now....both CN and CP have abandoned their lines through the Ottawa Valley. CN via Brent and Pembroke and CP via Chalk River and Pembroke.

The only way a through service could be provided is by extending the Canadian to run on the Kingston Subdivision to Montreal just as it did in the 1981-1985 period when through cars were attached to a Toronto-Montreal train. (below at Brockville ON in Jan '83)


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## Anderson (Jun 4, 2016)

The CP route also has the advantage of having better access to Sudbury (and actual access to Thunder Bay). I'm guessing those two would be worth a few thousand riders per year (and maybe another $1m on the bottom line).


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## WICT106 (Jun 11, 2016)

What happened to the CN route east of Thunder Bay, to Longlac / Nipigon ? Is it out of service ? The CP could be used between Thunder Bay & Winnipeg, but the CN has a route east of Thunder Bay, which rejoins the CN main at Longlac. Why not use that route east of Thunder Bay ?

I agree that re-routing The Canadian from the line through Armstrong, Sioux Lookout, et al, would result in those communities raising quite the fuss, as they a long ways away from alternate transportation.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jun 11, 2016)

WICT106 said:


> What happened to the CN route east of Thunder Bay, to Longlac / Nipigon ? Is it out of service ? The CP could be used between Thunder Bay & Winnipeg, but the CN has a route east of Thunder Bay, which rejoins the CN main at Longlac. Why not use that route east of Thunder Bay ?


It's gone......besides the point of the reroute is to get off CN and onto the less busy CP transcontinental mainline across northern Ontario (and a more scenic route along the north shore of Lake Superior)

To go back on CN at Longlac....(if it were possible) you'd be right back on the busy CN route defeating the purpose of the reroute.

CN also had a line (now abandoned) between Sioux Lookout and Thunder Bay....but the Canadian could still run on CN through Warroad Minnesota south of Lake of the Woods......but I dont imagine US CBP would appreciate having to process a 20 > 25 car train loaded with foreign tourists!



> I agree that re-routing The Canadian from the line through Armstrong, Sioux Lookout, et al, would result in those communities raising quite the fuss, as they a long ways away from alternate transportation.


Armstrong, Hornepayne and Sioux Lookout would probably still see a remote service similar to what VIA was obligated to operate throughout most of the 1980s.....the last time there wasnt a transcontinental passenger train on the CN route. The thru train between Capreol and Winnipeg in the following schedule consisted of a coach cafe and a baggage-dorm where the roomettes were sold to the public. (...and I imagine a rerouted Canadian would assume the current Sudbury-White River 'RDC' stops......leaving that equipment available to move to the CN line to provide a remote service)


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## WICT106 (Jun 11, 2016)

I thought the delays were on the CN line west of Longlac, and that there were few delays east of Longlac. I was up in Thunder Bay 2010 - 2012, & the CN rails are still there between Thunder Bay & Longlac, just out of service for some reason or another. As for sending the Canadian south of Lake Of The Woods, through Warroad, MN, and Rainy River, ON -- I think that is just asking for all sorts of trouble from US Customs.

If it turns out that the route will be all CP from Winnipeg east, that is fine by me.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jun 12, 2016)

WICT106 said:


> I was up in Thunder Bay 2010 - 2012, & the CN rails are still there between Thunder Bay & Longlac, just out of service for some reason or another.........


That line was out of service for several years then removed. Here's the abandoned route through Beardmore ON in June 2012

https://goo.gl/maps/rzwmTBQn9jt



> If it turns out that the route will be all CP from Winnipeg east, that is fine by me.


Operationally, I do not know what the plans are for the Canadian between Sudbury and Toronto as a portion of this route is Directional Running Territory so I assume it would remain status-quo.

All eastbound CP, CN and VIA trains run on CN for about 100 miles from the Wanup/St Cloud diamond (just south of Sudbury) to near Parry Sound. All westbound CN, CP and VIA trains run on CP and the lines are several miles apart in places. The eastbound Canadian uses the CN Station in Parry Sound and the westbound Canadian uses the CP Station.

South of Parry Sound all trains return to their respective lines for the remaining 150 miles to Toronto.

As there is no place to turn a train as long as the Canadian in Toronto (other than sending it 40 miles west to Bayview near Hamilton to wye) the Canadian currently just makes a big loop around the city. It comes directly south on CN's Bala Subdivision and enters the east side of Union Station. When it is ready to depart for Vancouver..it leaves the west side of Union Station and heads up the Newmarket Sub to Snider, backs up .then heads east on CN's York Sub to Doncaster where it regains the Bala Sub again to continue west.

Heres the Canadians current Loop around Toronto:






But now possibly with CP involvement..there's another option:

The westbound Canadian could continue to depart from the west side of Union Station but instead of looping on the Newmarket and York Subdivisions.it could switch over to CPs MacTier and Parry Sound Subs and follow this route westbound only to the start of the current directional running at South Perry....thus maintaining the required loop for operational porpoises.

.


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## railiner (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks for that diagram that makes it all so clear.....


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