# Empire Builder stopped



## Christine (Jun 1, 2011)

We're taking a family trip from Havre, MT to Chicago on Sat. June 4. Anyone hear if Amtrak is busing people around flooding in ND? For now the Empire Builder is stopped between St. Paul and Spokane, but Amtrak says everything is OK, trains will run on Sat. BUT! I REALLY don't want to go if we have to put the kids (2 and 5 years old) on a Greyhound for 8 or more hours (torture). I had to take a bus between Minneapolis and Chicago in 2001 (because of flooding in Wisc.)and that was no fun, so I'm hoping to avoid it this time and reschedule.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 1, 2011)

This year Amtrak has been choosing to cancel trains rather than provide bus bridges. So I would assume that if you get on a train you will stay on a train. That said I haven't heard a firm date as to when service will resume, although tentatively it is scheduled for Saturday. Keep in mind that if the first departure from Seattle is on Saturday it wont arrive in Havre until Sun. June 5.

The winds on Devils Lake have calmed down, but the Souris River is causing severe flooding in Minot which may affect the Empire Builder route. The water should crest in the next 24-48 hours, so it will likely be OK by Saturday if there are no washouts or bridge damage.

Mark


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## Grandpa D (Jun 1, 2011)

Also a lot of flooding in Montana. Check out the pictures in the link.


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## jmbgeg (Jun 1, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> This year Amtrak has been choosing to cancel trains rather than provide bus bridges. So I would assume that if you get on a train you will stay on a train. That said I haven't heard a firm date as to when service will resume, although tentatively it is scheduled for Saturday. Keep in mind that if the first departure from Seattle is on Saturday it wont arrive in Havre until Sun. June 5.
> 
> The winds on Devils Lake have calmed down, but the Souris River is causing severe flooding in Minot which may affect the Empire Builder route. The water should crest in the next 24-48 hours, so it will likely be OK by Saturday if there are no washouts or bridge damage.
> 
> Mark


I spoke with Amtrak about an hour ago and was told that the Builder is cancelled through 6/7. :angry2:


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## The Davy Crockett (Jun 1, 2011)

On Amtrak's website tickets on #8/28 are showing a "problem with availability" through 6/6/11.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 1, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> On Amtrak's website tickets on #8/28 are showing a "problem with availability" through 6/6/11.


What does Amtrak do for those PAX with reservations from SEA & PDX to WGL or WGL to SEA &PDX? Anything?


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## jmbgeg (Jun 1, 2011)

Christine said:


> We're taking a family trip from Havre, MT to Chicago on Sat. June 4. Anyone hear if Amtrak is busing people around flooding in ND? For now the Empire Builder is stopped between St. Paul and Spokane, but Amtrak says everything is OK, trains will run on Sat. BUT! I REALLY don't want to go if we have to put the kids (2 and 5 years old) on a Greyhound for 8 or more hours (torture). I had to take a bus between Minneapolis and Chicago in 2001 (because of flooding in Wisc.)and that was no fun, so I'm hoping to avoid it this time and reschedule.


http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/jun/01/flooding-halts-amtrak-between-spokane-st-paul/


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## fairviewroad (Jun 1, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> This year Amtrak has been choosing to cancel trains rather than provide bus bridges.


Not in every case. Two relatives of mine were bussed between Havre and Whitefish in March

due to a freight derailment.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 1, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > This year Amtrak has been choosing to cancel trains rather than provide bus bridges.
> ...


I'm assuming that the train was en route when the derailment happened, in which case the only options were buses or returning to the point of origin. I still think it's unlikely that Amtrak will restart service with a planned bustitution in ND.

Mark


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## N.T. (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm wondering why trains #8 or #28 are only going as far as SPK and not further into Glacier Park tourist area (WHF, WGP, ESM, or GPK)? How far east into Montana would the trains have to go before they could be turned (assuming they're not going to go all the way to MOT)? Also wondering if anybody has any ideas how to go ONE-WAY from SPK (assuming we get that far) to the Kallispell airport where we are suppose to depart.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 1, 2011)

As far as I can tell, Amtrak will only service and turn trainsets in Seattle, Portland, Spokane, St. Paul, and Chicago. They will turn trains in other places in emergencies, but they won't plan on it.

All in all, I'd say Amtrak, like many government organizations, has a limited amount of operational flexibility and a limited desire to go the extra mile (travel costs, overtime pay, buses) to keep the customer satisfied. I can understand cancellation when blizzards shut down a whole state or region. But cancelling service across 1000 miles of track when less than 200 miles are affected, roads are open, and demand is high strikes me as a poor decision.

Mark



N.T. said:


> I'm wondering why trains #8 or #28 are only going as far as SPK and not further into Glacier Park tourist area (WHF, WGP, ESM, or GPK)? How far east into Montana would the trains have to go before they could be turned (assuming they're not going to go all the way to MOT)? Also wondering if anybody has any ideas how to go ONE-WAY from SPK (assuming we get that far) to the Kallispell airport where we are suppose to depart.


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## mwmnp (Jun 1, 2011)

N.T. said:


> How far east into Montana would the trains have to go before they could be turned (assuming they're not going to go all the way to MOT)?


Theoretically, an eastbound train could go all the way to Stanley, ND and turn around there.


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## Kaki (Jun 1, 2011)

Well.....I just got over being stressed over the CONO flooding....and now the EB is having problems :blink:

We are supposed to board the EB Chicago to Seattle on June 10th. There are 5 of us including a 3 1/2 year old. I am really hoping we won't have to drive.

I will keep checking back for updates....


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## henryj (Jun 1, 2011)

Currently from what I see on the Amtrak status maps is only the SWC, the Eagle and the Sunset are running consistently. Everything north of that is a mess.


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## jmbgeg (Jun 1, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Well.....I just got over being stressed over the CONO flooding....and now the EB is having problems :blink:
> 
> We are supposed to board the EB Chicago to Seattle on June 10th. There are 5 of us including a 3 1/2 year old. I am really hoping we won't have to drive.
> 
> I will keep checking back for updates....



Now there are service disruptions with the CZ.

http://72.148.42.113:8080/scripts/archivefinder.pl?seltrain=5&selyear=2011&selmonth=06&selday=01


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## Amtrak George (Jun 1, 2011)

_*Empire Builder Cancellation*_: I just saw a news item that there is now flooding in Minot and the train is cancelled through Sunday. Stub train Chgo to Minneapolis, bus from Spokane to Portland and Seattle.


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## Kaki (Jun 1, 2011)

Amtrak George said:


> _*Empire Builder Cancellation*_: I just saw a news item that there is now flooding in Minot and the train is cancelled through Sunday. Stub train Chgo to Minneapolis, bus from Spokane to Portland and Seattle.


Thank you for the information! Where (besides here) can I find the latest infomation. We are scheduled to leave Chi to Sea on June 10. I am worried that Amtrak will cancel day by day and at the last minute like they did on the CONO. We have had this trip planned for 6 months. Our back-up plan is to drive the 35 hours to Seattle.


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## manderson (Jun 1, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Thank you for the information! Where (besides here) can I find the latest infomation. We are scheduled to leave Chi to Sea on June 10. I am worried that Amtrak will cancel day by day and at the last minute like they did on the CONO. We have had this trip planned for 6 months. Our back-up plan is to drive the 35 hours to Seattle.


I had tickets for the EB on Sat June 4th, and was informed today that it's cancelled -- three days ahead of time.


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## Amtrak George (Jun 1, 2011)

BUILDER CANCELLATION; If you do a Google news search for 'Amtrak Empire Builder' or 'Empire Builder Minot' you will find various current news articles. It doesn't look good with problems at Minot as well as the Devil's Lake stuff. Pray for dry (and non windy) weather!


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## Kaki (Jun 2, 2011)

Amtrak George said:


> BUILDER CANCELLATION; If you do a Google news search for 'Amtrak Empire Builder' or 'Empire Builder Minot' you will find various current news articles. It doesn't look good with problems at Minot as well as the Devil's Lake stuff. Pray for dry (and non windy) weather!


Thank you!!!


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## TransitGeek (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm scheduled to be on 8(28) SEA-CHI, and this is starting to make me nervous...

(Edited because 8/28 looked more like "Eastbound _Empire Builder_ + Portland section" rather than the intended "Eastbound _Empire Builder_ departing 28 June.")


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## Ispolkom (Jun 2, 2011)

I'd say that you have nothing to worry about, but I was sure that *I* had nothing to worry about on 7(30), and boy, was I wrong. This is a uniquely bad year for the Empire Builder. At this point I'm wondering how they are going to handle the plagues of locusts and frogs that seem likely to be the next disaster to hit the Hi Line.


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## Kaki (Jun 2, 2011)

Ok, I know that Amtrak has cancelled EB through June 6th.....our reservation is June 10th Chicago to Seattle. What do you think the chances are that the train will be running by then?

AND...if we DO make the June 10th trip...we will have to worry about being stuck in Seattle for our return trip on June 23 and the posibility of renting a car for the return trip.

We are already mapping out the route for the road trip.....still hoping to be able to take the train.


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## JayPea (Jun 2, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> At this point I'm wondering how they are going to handle the plagues of locusts and frogs that seem likely to be the next disaster to hit the Hi Line.


I hope it's only locusts and frogs! Just think if the firstborn of every passenger on the EB dies!! :blink: :blink: :blink:


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## Rail Freak (Jun 2, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Ok, I know that Amtrak has cancelled EB through June 6th.....our reservation is June 10th Chicago to Seattle. What do you think the chances are that the train will be running by then?
> 
> AND...if we DO make the June 10th trip...we will have to worry about being stuck in Seattle for our return trip on June 23 and the posibility of renting a car for the return trip.
> 
> We are already mapping out the route for the road trip.....still hoping to be able to take the train.


One option to solve the nerves problem, maybe to change your return to SEA-SAC-CHI (CS-CZ)!


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## anir dendroica (Jun 2, 2011)

More ND trouble....

To: All Impacted Customers

06/02/2011

Preliminary Report: Derailment near Minot, North Dakota

We have a preliminary report that automotive train V-TACLPC1-29 derailed west of Minot, North Dakota at approximately 4:50 a.m. CT on Thursday, June 02, 2011.

BNSF personnel are on site to determine the impact. At the current time we do not have an estimate on the opening of the main track. BNSF will continue to provide you with additional information as it becomes available.

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-industrial/8BE97B97E7366BB5862578A30041E69E?Open

TRAIN DERAILMENT

At 4:50 a.m. a BNSF train derailed west of Minot in the Trestle Valley neighborhood. A dozen of the 38 cars are off the tracks. They were not carrying hazardous material, and there are no injuries. The cargo consisted of new automobiles. The train was coming from Washington state heading to Chicago. BNSF has inspectors on scene but they do not know when the tracks will be clear.

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/14827077/residents-check-on-houses


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## Rail Freak (Jun 2, 2011)

We're getting closer to the Locust prediction!!! :blink:


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## The Davy Crockett (Jun 2, 2011)

JayPea said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > At this point I'm wondering how they are going to handle the plagues of locusts and frogs that seem likely to be the next disaster to hit the Hi Line.
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol: That was my first thought too! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And I rode the EB recently! :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

What a relief it is that I have no kids! :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


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## anir dendroica (Jun 2, 2011)

Update from BNSF:

"The main track is estimated to return to service at 12:00 p.m. CT June 3, 2011. Customers may experience delays of 36 to 48 hours on shipments moving through this corridor. BNSF will continue to provide you with additional information as it becomes available."

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-industrial/2D0729A8A8951BBD862578A3005F1125?Open

Probably no effect on the EB since it won't be running by then anyway...


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## tnrkitect (Jun 2, 2011)

I too am keeping a very close eye on the EB. My rescheduled trip mentioned here has my CHI-SPK leg starting the 27th of June, with the (now) GPK-PDX leg starting on the 3rd of July.

All kneeling petitions :help: are being made to those of "higher authority" on a regular basis!


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 2, 2011)

Good God! We have an Empire Builder trip scheduled in September and all this talk has me concerned already......


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## Ispolkom (Jun 2, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> Good God! We have an Empire Builder trip scheduled in September and all this talk has me concerned already......


How much do you like frogs?


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 2, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> > Good God! We have an Empire Builder trip scheduled in September and all this talk has me concerned already......
> ...


Well, I sure do like fried frog legs, so.......


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## Kaki (Jun 3, 2011)

Can't find anything new in the news this morning about the flooding or EB future status......we have been busy mapping out our road trip to Seattle and hoping we don't have to use it.

The other routes west on Amtrak are showing as sold out.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 3, 2011)

Video of BNSF derailment west of Minot. Tracks should be reopening soon. Link works in IE but not Firefox.

http://www.kxnet.com/video.asp?ArticleId=785052&VideoId=45073

I haven't heard anything new from Amtrak save for the statement in several news articles that EB departures are cancelled through Sunday. I imagine BNSF has quite a backlog of freights to clear, and given the risk of derailments on waterlogged track they may be uncomfortable running passenger trains for a few days. Devils Lake is under a wind advisory today, so wave action is probably still a concern as well.

Mark


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## Kaki (Jun 3, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Video of BNSF derailment west of Minot. Tracks should be reopening soon. Link works in IE but not Firefox.
> 
> http://www.kxnet.com/video.asp?ArticleId=785052&VideoId=45073
> 
> ...


Mark,

What is your prediction as to when the first Amtrak might run from Chicago to Seattle? I am still hoping for it to be running by the 10th. Am I being too hopeful? :unsure:

Thanks!


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## Amtrak George (Jun 3, 2011)

Kaki said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Video of BNSF derailment west of Minot. Tracks should be reopening soon. Link works in IE but not Firefox.
> ...


Kaki, you are probably wise to have a contingency plan. Are you connecting to the Builder at Chicago? If so, where does your trip originate and how much flexibility do you have on departure dates?....George


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## EB_OBS (Jun 3, 2011)

The shut down has been extended thru 6/7/11. A stub-train between CHI and MSP will continue and bus service will be provided between SEA/PDX and SPK.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 3, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> The shut down has been extended thru 6/7/11. A stub-train between CHI and MSP will continue and bus service will be provided between SEA/PDX and SPK.


But but but, I'm on my way to WGL  :angry:  :blink: :unsure: :lol: !!!

OH WELL


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## Kaki (Jun 3, 2011)

Amtrak George said:


> Kaki said:
> 
> 
> > anir dendroica said:
> ...


Our trip starts in Memphis....we have only one day of flexibility....we could leave one day later. Round trip beginning June 9 in Memphis to Seattle. Return trip beginning in Seattle on June 23.

Our backup plans are:

1. Get a refund on the whole train trip and drive round trip (4424 miles)

2. Get a refund on the June 9 trip, rent a vehicle to Seattle and take the train back on June 23. (or, rent a vehicle for the return trip if EB is not up and running by then).

There are 5 of us traveling with roomette/family bedroom. I worked really hard to plan this trip...getting about the lowest rate on all portions of the trip. We will probably end up having to drive since they only have 3 days (7th to 10th) to get the tracks inspected and ready.


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## Amtrak George (Jun 3, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Amtrak George said:
> 
> 
> > Kaki said:
> ...


I would think the freight wreck and backlog from that would be cleared in time, but the flooding in two areas is what makes it iffy....I played around with going on the Cal Zephyr/Coast Starlight or the Southwest Chief/Coast Starlight going over, and since there is only one family bedroom per car these often sell out early. What you might consider is, if by say Monday you haven't heard from Amtrak then call, ask for an agent and if the Builder is not going to run out of Chgo on the 10th, ask if you could have alternate transportation in the form of one of these other connections at the same price. You could tell them you are willing to take a bedroom or two roomettes in place of the family room...I think a roomette and a bedroom, or three roomettes total, would handle your bunch. Don't settle for 2 roomettes total...too crowded for five people. If they can't do it, you may need to get a refund of the westbound portion and drive (sigh).


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## Kaki (Jun 3, 2011)

Is it really possible that Amtrak could change us to alternate route at same price? I have played around with the different routes and just the coach seats are more than our trip with rooms.


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## Gingee (Jun 3, 2011)

Gad we came back from Seattle on the Empire Builder last week. I could tell that if there was a lot of rain, the tracks could have problems. Some of the water was very close to the tracks.


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## Amtrak George (Jun 3, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Is it really possible that Amtrak could change us to alternate route at same price? I have played around with the different routes and just the coach seats are more than our trip with rooms.


You would be entitled to a refund if the train doesn't run. As far as the alternate route, it is something (if it were me) I would ask the agent, and if they can't do it, I would ask if a customer service rep could help me. I would only do it if they could book it for me at the same price, explaining it will take longer to get there. Now, I don't think you can force them to do it, but it might be worth it to ask.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 4, 2011)

Kaki said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Video of BNSF derailment west of Minot. Tracks should be reopening soon. Link works in IE but not Firefox.
> ...


I won't make a prediction, but I would hope that service will resume next week on or before the 8th as currently scheduled. The Minot flooding should be over by then. Devils Lake will continue to be touch-and-go, with line closures during every major wind event. The original plan was to switch over to the Surrey line when the lake reached this level, but the soft track and busy freight traffic on that route has meant ~4 hour delays when the EB is detoured.

We will see in the coming months if Amtrak chooses to detour or cancel when Devils Lake is impassable, but these current cancellations are setting a dangerous precedent.

Mark


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## Kaki (Jun 4, 2011)

Just spoke to Amtrak, this mornings official update still says the EB is due to be back in service on the 8th. I will call back again tomorrow for their daily update. Online Amtrak June 8 shows EB #7 available and #27 as sold out.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 4, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Is it really possible that Amtrak could change us to alternate route at same price? I have played around with the different routes and just the coach seats are more than our trip with rooms.


If space is available on an alternate route then Amtrak will generally offer that space to passengers effected by cancellations. AFAIK, at no additional charge. It's best to speak with an agent.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 4, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Just spoke to Amtrak, this mornings official update still says the EB is due to be back in service on the 8th. I will call back again tomorrow for their daily update. Online Amtrak June 8 shows EB #7 available and #27 as sold out.


Yes the first several days out of Seattle, Portland and Chicago the trains are going to be sold out with re-accommodating passengers from the cancelled days.


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## Exiled in Express (Jun 5, 2011)

FWIW, the stub train was pretty much on time into Saint Paul last night, 3 coaches and a sightseer. I was out and about down by the river and happened to be near the tracks as it passed.


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## Joaninha (Jun 5, 2011)

Am half -way through a trip from Seattle- New England-Seattle, and have sleeper reservations on the EB from Chicago on June 11 ( via connection from Ohio that) morning. So far we have not been able to reach Amtrak by phone to discuss situation nor any alternatives, endless waits on hold. Last week we did get a call that the leg from Boston to Toledo had a service change, that we will be bussed from Boston to Albany to catch train. Our question is about what kind of alternate plans we can make via Amtrak, as arranging last-minute flight would be very difficult not to mention very expensive. Since we booked a sleeper, any tips on how best to negotiate with Amtrak? Bus from CHI to SEA is not possible for us for health reasons.

Want to be prepared for worst case scenario.

Thanks.


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## Amtrak George (Jun 5, 2011)

Joaninha said:


> Am half -way through a trip from Seattle- New England-Seattle, and have sleeper reservations on the EB from Chicago on June 11 ( via connection from Ohio that) morning. So far we have not been able to reach Amtrak by phone to discuss situation nor any alternatives, endless waits on hold. Last week we did get a call that the leg from Boston to Toledo had a service change, that we will be bussed from Boston to Albany to catch train. Our question is about what kind of alternate plans we can make via Amtrak, as arranging last-minute flight would be very difficult not to mention very expensive. Since we booked a sleeper, any tips on how best to negotiate with Amtrak? Bus from CHI to SEA is not possible for us for health reasons.
> 
> Want to be prepared for worst case scenario.
> 
> Thanks.


From the most recent news articles I have seen, as well as playing with Amtrak reservations on the website, it looks like they plan to resume service June 8. Hopefully you will be okay. If they do cancel I would inform them of your physical issues and ask for an alternate route. They could send you by the Cal Zephyr to Sacramento (or even into Emeryville) and Coast Starlight to Seattle, or Southwest Chief to LA thence Coast Starlight. Ask them if they can do the change to the other route without extra charge since it is not direct and will take you longer.

If they won't do this (or space is unavailable) then you may have to get a full refund and then rent a car or fly.


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## Kaki (Jun 6, 2011)

I just talked to Amtrak. June 8 is still the scheduled day to resume the EB. I am hoping the tracks will be good when they inspect......


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## Kaki (Jun 6, 2011)

The latest news on the Empire Builder is: The tracks were open to freight at the end of last week and Amtrak is waiting for the back-log of freight to clear before they resume on June 8th.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks for the daily updates! Would it really be so hard for someone "in the know" at Amtrak to post this stuff on their website, or on Facebook, or Twitter, or somewhere? It's very strange in this digital age that we have to call an agent to find out what the problem is and when the trains will be running :angry2:

Mark


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## Kaki (Jun 7, 2011)

Finally an update on Amtrak's website. It's really amazing that just this morning there was a news release quoting an Amtrak representative saying that the tracks were open at the end of last week to freight and would open to passenger traffic June 8th after the freight had a chance to clear.

Time for a road trip


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## visitor_stateside (Jun 7, 2011)

Kaki said:


> Finally an update on Amtrak's website. It's really amazing that just this morning there was a news release quoting an Amtrak representative saying that the tracks were open at the end of last week to freight and would open to passenger traffic June 8th after the freight had a chance to clear.
> 
> Time for a road trip


The word is service resumes East tomorrow CHI bound. Freight traffic cleared?


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## anir dendroica (Jun 7, 2011)

Article from Grand Forks: http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/205983/group/homepage/



> High winds and flooding are threatening BNSF-owned tracks in the Churchs Ferry, N.D., area of the Devils Lake Basin.
> “We’re taking it two days at a time,” Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said. “There are very high winds across the lake again today.”





> In recent weeks, Amtrak has shifted its train to its Surrey-cutoff route between Fargo and Minot — bypassing Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby.
> However, Amtrak is not using that detour route right now, because of traffic congestion and repairs that are being made, according to Magliari.





> BNSF officials have been inspecting the bridges and the railbed, to make sure they are safe for travel.
> Once it passes inspection, Amtrak will resume service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby, according to Magliari.
> 
> “They have to get out there to inspect it,” Magliari said. “We’re carrying people across there.”


Mark


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## Joaninha (Jun 8, 2011)

Talked to Amtrak last night, and got same news that others have reported: EB will resume today, June 8. Will advise ho it works out. Agree also that Amtrak did a very poor job of communicating, so dismissive of major and potential disruption of travel plans of customers. While I am not a believer in conspiracy theories, one has to wonder why such utter disregard for their "best customers." I too was told I'd be on my own to make any alternate travel plans.

In other news, we got a call yesterday advising that Train 449 would again run out of Boston > CHI today, instead of bus we'd been told to expect.

Good luck to everyone. I may not be able to post again until

back in Seattle next week.


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## guest (Jun 8, 2011)

EB is not running today. Amtrak tells me it is scheduled to start again on Saturday. Has anyone heard anything else? I have a trip scheduled for Sunday and will have to drive instead, leaving on Saturday, if the EB isn't running by then.


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## TraneMan (Jun 8, 2011)

guest said:


> EB is not running today. Amtrak tells me it is scheduled to start again on Saturday. Has anyone heard anything else? I have a trip scheduled for Sunday and will have to drive instead, leaving on Saturday, if the EB isn't running by then.


On Amtrak's Web page, they are starting up on Thursday the 9th.


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## julie (Jun 8, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > EB is not running today. Amtrak tells me it is scheduled to start again on Saturday. Has anyone heard anything else? I have a trip scheduled for Sunday and will have to drive instead, leaving on Saturday, if the EB isn't running by then.
> ...


Their website is not correct. They cancelled all trips through Friday-at least west-bound. Saturday is the 1st day they will run.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 8, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > EB is not running today. Amtrak tells me it is scheduled to start again on Saturday. Has anyone heard anything else? I have a trip scheduled for Sunday and will have to drive instead, leaving on Saturday, if the EB isn't running by then.
> ...


No, the website says that the trains are canceled through the 9th. This would mean that they might run on 10th, but I've heard Saturday the 11th is more likely.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 8, 2011)

Amtrak.Com shows all the Western trains as SOLD OUT until Monday, 6/13/11 with a few Exceptions in Coach, You are unable to Book the EB and CZ before this Saturday. 6/11.

Id think that it will be this way for a Long time as the New Flooding affecting the CZ will put Even More Pressure on the SWC/TE-SSL and the EB!!! Looks like a Hard/Pricey Summer on the Western Trains!! :help:


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## TraneMan (Jun 8, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > guest said:
> ...


Ok, my bad. Thanks for catching this.


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## julie (Jun 8, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Amtrak.Com shows all the Western trains as SOLD OUT until Monday, 6/13/11 with a few Exceptions in Coach, You are unable to Book the EB and CZ before this Saturday. 6/11.
> 
> Id think that it will be this way for a Long time as the New Flooding affecting the CZ will put Even More Pressure on the SWC/TE-SSL and the EB!!! Looks like a Hard/Pricey Summer on the Western Trains!! :help:


Jim, What's your guess on if the EB will actually start running again on Saturday? My trip to glacier is planned to leave on Sunday. Wondering if I should make alternate plans. thanks


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## Sue (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm scheduled to leave on the EB from Portland to Chicago on June 15. Think that will really happen? If so, what's the chances of getting to Chicago on time (if there's no more flooding)?

Thanks for any any advice from everyone's experience.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 8, 2011)

Just FYI, I haven't heard anything to the contrary, yet. We all know BNSF and Amtrak are evaluating this on a daily basis. I can say that it's been raining here, in north central Montana, all day today and most of yesterday. I'm sure the additional rain isn't helping to get things moving again.


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## Bridget (Jun 9, 2011)

I called Amtrak this morning and the agent said that late last night they decided to extend the current Empire Builder cancellation through the 13th. Our trip was on the 11th, so we're getting a refund and looking at plane tickets. I appreciate all the updates posted so far by everyone in this forum, so I figured I'd extend you all the same courtesy!


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## dan72 (Jun 9, 2011)

They need to update the web page. Right now, it is still saying the 9th.

My wife and I are (hopefully) heading to Seattle on the 20th. Keeping fingers and toes crossed.

Dan


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## Rail Freak (Jun 9, 2011)

Bridget said:


> I called Amtrak this morning and the agent said that late last night they decided to extend the current Empire Builder cancellation through the 13th. Our trip was on the 11th, so we're getting a refund and looking at plane tickets. I appreciate all the updates posted so far by everyone in this forum, so I figured I'd extend you all the same courtesy!



Thanx, I guess instead of going from the CS to the EB, I'll be touring Portland rather than Glacier Park. I'll be catching the CZ to DEN to fly home, got lucky on that route, I Hope!!! (keeping fingers crossed). This has been one hell of a year. I wonder who pissed off Mother Nature?

Gonna Have Fun No Matter What!!!


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## Jerott (Jun 9, 2011)

I was supposed to depart for Spokane from Wisconsin today, but my reservation was pushed back to tomorrow initially, and now until Tuesday of next week. I'm leaving to do a summer internship, but at this point it's way more money to take a plane out there due to me buying the tickets last minute. Thankfully the internship isn't a particularly strict one, and the guy I'm working with has been very laid back about it.

"Get here when you can get here." Pretty awesome.

Anyway, this has been very frustrating. I've taken this route before with no problems like this. I'm sure it's not common.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 9, 2011)

Sooner or later Amtrak is going to have to accept that Devils Lake is a lost cause and schedule trains on the detour route. At the moment (given freight congestion, planned tie replacement, and soft track slow orders over saturated soil) that means accepting a few hours of delay between Fargo and Minot. I assume most passengers would find that preferable to no train at all.

From Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group:



> BNSF's KO subdivision has remained open, albeit with slow track conditions thatare being reduced daily, but are still in the vicity of a couple of hours.
> 
> Due to the volume of traffic, BNSF will not guarantee Amtrak any priority over
> 
> ...


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## dan72 (Jun 9, 2011)

While moving the schedule around isn't practical, I agree with the Yahoo poster's sentiment that Amtrak needs to accept the fact that trains will be running behind schedule for the time being. This is one of the busiest times on the Builder and the revenue loss has got to be significant already.

I hope they are not trying to pull some sort of stunt by resorting to holding 75% of the EB route hostage until funding comes through for Devil's Lake improvements. To me, that is playing with some dangerous political fire. I don't think that's the case, but it makes one wonder.

If anything, they need to right now be more diligent with their web page updates.

Dan


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## Joaninha (Jun 9, 2011)

Very bad news made worse by Amtrak communication failure. We finally arrived in Toledo at 2 pm today 8 hrs late via train 449/49 coming from Boston 4 hrs spent at Albany station. So I called Amtrak just now to ask bat how to deal with Amy delays when we leave on 11 th to catch EB back to Seattle. Agent informed that EB is now canceled thru 13th and we are on our own to make other plans. Next sleeper seats are on 21 next coach on 14. Won't work for us. When I asked why no heads up from Amtrak agent said they were not planning to notify pages for Sat until tomorrow!!! Trying to figure out flight home. F for customer service


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## Mackensen (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't see what Amtrak can do with the EB's schedule right now. Here's the issue (as I see it):


EB leaves Chicago earlier: lose connections with East Coast trains

EB arrives in Seattle/Portland later: can't turn train around in time

EB arrives in Chicago later: no connections to East Coast trains


The only fix I see is adding another consist to mix (which Amtrak probably doesn't have) so that the eastbound sections don't have to wait for the eastbound trains to arrive. Moving to the KO sub isn't a panacea: you'll replace flood-induced slow orders with freight interference.


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## JayPea (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm scheduled to take the EB from Spokane to Seattle on the 21st, the CS to Portland on the 24th, and back to Spokane on the 24th on the EB. The window for the EB to start up is narrowing considerably. The EB I'd be on departs Chicago the 19th. In the event the EB is still not running by the 19th, I'm going to cancel my Amtrak reservations, rather than being bustituted to and fro, and just take the Thruway bus to and from Seattle, forgetting about Portland, because there's no way to take a Thruway bus from Portland to my hometown. Not only does the Thruway bus make a stop in my town, but the stop is literally right outside my front door. And it leaves at a decent hour, 7:30 AM. The idea of staying up all hours, driving an hour to Spokane, paying for parking, and drag my fat carcass on to a bus at 2:15 AM does not appeal to me. Now, staying up all hours, driving an hour to Spokane, paying for parking, and dragging my fat carcass on a train at 2:15 AM is different; it's FUN!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: If I'm going to be taking a crappy bus anyway, might as well make it easy and catch it right outside my door. I will then get to haggle, no doubt, with AGR about getting my points (the buses are 8000 series and I seem to remember a post about someone being told 8000 series buses are not eligible for points, though that isn't true), but that's the way it goes sometimes. I'm going on a Victoria Clipper whalewatching cruise on the 22nd, with nonrefundable boat tickets, and I can't change my vacation dates, so I go when I go. I feel for those folks who have lost homes and valuables in the flooding; my possibly riding a bus instead of a train is of no consequence in comparison to those folks. And it certainly pales in comparison to those who have had EB trips planned, months in advance, only to see those get changed or cancelled altogether.


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## saxman (Jun 9, 2011)

Except that these cancellations are not due to Devils Lake flooding.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 9, 2011)

saxman said:


> Except that these cancellations are not due to Devils Lake flooding.


They are, actually. The recent record rainfall and flooding in Montana and western North Dakota gives Amtrak a way to blame Mother Nature for a situation that they have seen coming for the past 10 years. Aside from flooding in the basement of the Minot station and various soft-track slow orders, most of the route has been unaffected by flooding. BNSF trains continue to roll. The trouble spot is a two-mile stretch of track near Church's Ferry that, due to the relentless rise of Devils Lake, has become a causeway with the top of the rail barely a foot above water. Throw in 50 mph winds, and five-foot waves are swamping the track and washing away the ballast. BNSF has been dumping ballast at a fevered pace to keep the line open, but it seems they may be giving up.

Amtrak and BNSF have been playing a game of political chicken over paying the cost of raising the track (estimated at $75 million), and so far neither entity has committed to pay for it.

"Guest_Rider" mentioned that the EB starting on the 14th has several "enroute bustitutions." I'm guessing that means they will be running on the Surrey Cutoff, with bus service to Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks. If that is the case, I would wager that 1) the service restoration date will not be pushed back farther, and 2) the reroute may be permanent this time. If anyone talks to an Amtrak agent, I'd like to hear if the train will be bypassing Devils Lake.

I'm on the EB PDX-MSP June 25, still optimistic that I will have a train to ride.

Mark


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## JayPea (Jun 9, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> "Guest_Rider" mentioned that the EB starting on the 14th has several "enroute bustitutions." I'm guessing that means they will be running on the Surrey Cutoff, with bus service to Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks. If that is the case, I would wager that 1) the service restoration date will not be pushed back farther, and 2) the reroute may be permanent this time. If anyone talks to an Amtrak agent, I'd like to hear if the train will be bypassing Devils Lake.
> 
> I'm on the EB PDX-MSP June 25, still optimistic that I will have a train to ride.
> 
> Mark


I hope that's right. I'd much rather get to Seattle by train than bus. One way or another, I'll be in Seattle on the 21st regardless.


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## Amtrak George (Jun 9, 2011)

_*Not a good situation*_: Amtrak should not keep cancelling the train just because it can't run on time. Most of us would accept a late train rather than no train. Why not simply notify passengers that train 7 will run late due to slow traffic on the Surrey Cutoff detour; and that due to late arrival in Seattle of number 7, train 8 will be leaving, say, four hours after timetable departure from Seattle and that there will be no guaranteed connections to East Coast trains in Chicago until the situation normalizes; and if someone is unhappy they can have a refund.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 9, 2011)

http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=49833

6/9/2011

Amtrak service continues to be temporarily suspended west of St. Paul, Minn., due to a BNSF Railway Co. track closure between Devils Lake and Rugby, N.D. This suspension includes the daily originations of the trains from Portland, Seattle and Chicago through Monday, June 13.

Amtrak Empire Builder service will be maintained daily with trains between Chicago and St. Paul. Between Spokane, Wash., and both Portland, Ore., and Seattle, trains and/or chartered motorcoaches will be provided. On June 10 & 13, Train 28 will operate as far east as Whitefish, Mont., arriving there on the mornings of June 11 & 14, with Train 27 departing those evenings westbound to Portland/Seattle via Spokane. Alternate transportation in both directions will be provided for stations between Whitefish and East Glacier Park, Mont., on June 11 & 14.

No other Amtrak service is available for these days in Minnesota (except Winona, Red Wing & St. Paul), in North Dakota, Montana and Idaho.


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## Joaninha (Jun 10, 2011)

FYI just read article in June 6 issue of Business Week on EB status, quoting Amtrak rep saying that disruption in service is due to backlog of freight trains that were delayed by flooding that floodedtracks are no longer the problem. Very different spin from that which Amtrak gives to customers like myself who are being stranded en route

Newest Amtrak site msg is ambiguous.....sad to see they don't come out and say service cancelled only some local news outlets are doing so. And now at 10:30 am EDT still no call from Amtrak telling us status of our reservation

Letter writing time when home in Seattle of course

BTW I shared this forum with a number of interested passengers of train 49

Cheers from Toledo


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## colobok (Jun 10, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> Amtrak Empire Builder service will be maintained daily with trains between Chicago and St. Paul. Between Spokane, Wash., and both Portland, Ore., and Seattle, trains and/or chartered motorcoaches will be provided. On June 10 & 13, Train 28 will operate as far east as Whitefish, Mont., arriving there on the mornings of June 11 & 14, with Train 27 departing those evenings westbound to Portland/Seattle via Spokane. Alternate transportation in both directions will be provided for stations between Whitefish and East Glacier Park, Mont., on June 11 & 14.


Interesting... If they can run trains to Whitefish on June 10 & 13 then why they couldn't do this on other days???

How flooding in ND can affect service between Spokane and Whitefish???

We have a trip on EB scheduled in July, but I am already worried...


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## EB_OBS (Jun 10, 2011)

colobok said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak Empire Builder service will be maintained daily with trains between Chicago and St. Paul. Between Spokane, Wash., and both Portland, Ore., and Seattle, trains and/or chartered motorcoaches will be provided. On June 10 & 13, Train 28 will operate as far east as Whitefish, Mont., arriving there on the mornings of June 11 & 14, with Train 27 departing those evenings westbound to Portland/Seattle via Spokane. Alternate transportation in both directions will be provided for stations between Whitefish and East Glacier Park, Mont., on June 11 & 14.
> ...



Because the majority of passengers are going thru all the way to MSP, Chicago and beyond. Without those passengers aboard, the train is mostly empty. With cancelled trains and a group or two going to Whitefish and Glacier Park, it's feasible to run a train and turn it in Whitefish, just not every single day.


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## colobok (Jun 10, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Because the majority of passengers are going thru all the way to MSP, Chicago and beyond. Without those passengers aboard, the train is mostly empty. With cancelled trains and a group or two going to Whitefish and Glacier Park, it's feasible to run a train and turn it in Whitefish, just not every single day.


REALLY??? So let's say if I am a passanger who booked a trip to Whitefish on June 5 - Amtrak doesn't have any responsibility to take me to the destination point only because they "think" not many people will go to Whitefish on that day??? Using this logic they may cancel any train at any point whenever they want. I thought we pay Amtrak from Gov.budget to move people, not to cancel trains simply because they don't have desire to run.

Plus I checked ridership numbers:

Whitefish - 66k passengers per year - 183 per day - say at least 250 per day in the summertime

3 stations in Glacier Park - 30k passengers per year - 82 per day (mostly in summertime) - so say about 150 per day in the summertime

So you are saying Amtrak doesn't want to run few more stops only because they think 400 passengers is too low number to run the train and they prefer to leave people stranded???


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## EB_OBS (Jun 10, 2011)

colobok said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > Because the majority of passengers are going thru all the way to MSP, Chicago and beyond. Without those passengers aboard, the train is mostly empty. With cancelled trains and a group or two going to Whitefish and Glacier Park, it's feasible to run a train and turn it in Whitefish, just not every single day.
> ...


You can check ridership numbers. The people making these decisions are looking at the actual daily train manifests. The train cannot get through the entire route. That's beyond Amtrak's control. Running a train consist out part way and turning it around mid-route in Montana or North Dakota is not done as routine.

The BNSF has to allow Amtrak to park a train somewhere during the day for it to sit and wait for a departure in the reverse direction. Again, that's not Amtrak's call. With the amount of freight congestion clogging up the Highline right now, I imagine they've said no. Additionally, there are only two stations in Montana that the train can be serviced, albeit incompletely, on a daily basis.

The flooding, track closures and resulting freight congestion is effecting a lot of northern and western North Dakota as well as some of eastern Montana. It's not possible to run a bus bridge for 700 miles between Havre, MT and Fargo, ND every day. Just as some passenger would rather get to their destination no matter how, there are equal number of passengers who don't want to sit on a bus for 700 miles.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 10, 2011)

colobok said:


> So you are saying Amtrak doesn't want to run few more stops only because they think 400 passengers is too low number to run the train and they prefer to leave people stranded???


Not daily, thus the two scheduled runs to Whitefish, MT with continuing on motor coach service to Glacier Park, and BTW, 400 passengers is a full train. I can assure you, if 400 passengers were bound for only as far as Whitefish and/or Glacier Park, then Amtrak would run the train there somehow. I know the people I work for. They are just as disappointed and frustrated by the situation as you. There are also now a lot of people who've not worked for almost two weeks. Add that to the amount of missed trips in April. Believe me, Amtrak employees want to be running a train to wherever we can.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 10, 2011)

Grand Forks Herald article:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/206279/



> Devils Lake Basin flooding continues to plague passenger rail serviceWith Amtrak’s Empire Builder suspended passenger rail service through North Dakota entering its second consecutive weekend because of flooding in the Devils Lake Basin, a meeting is planned in Washington next week to discuss the threatened line’s future.


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## AlanB (Jun 10, 2011)

colobok said:


> REALLY??? So let's say if I am a passanger who booked a trip to Whitefish on June 5 - Amtrak doesn't have any responsibility to take me to the destination point only because they "think" not many people will go to Whitefish on that day???


As EB OBS pointed out, Amtrak doesn't "think", they know exactly how many people are schedueled to Whitefish on any given day. That info is readily available to them in ARROW.



colobok said:


> Plus I checked ridership numbers:Whitefish - 66k passengers per year - 183 per day - say at least 250 per day in the summertime
> 
> 3 stations in Glacier Park - 30k passengers per year - 82 per day (mostly in summertime) - so say about 150 per day in the summertime
> 
> So you are saying Amtrak doesn't want to run few more stops only because they think 400 passengers is too low number to run the train and they prefer to leave people stranded???


You're forgetting that probably half, if not more of those 400 people are coming from the Chicago side. They're not all coming from the western end of the run. Additionally those numbers are both boardings and alightings. If people can't get there, then they're not leaving from there when their trip is over. So that further reduces the number of people that would be riding the stub train from Seattle/Portland.

On a good day, barring a group, I'd be surprised if the stub train were carrying more than 50 to 60 people into those stops and maybe the same back out. It probably doesn't pay to run the train for that.


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## The Crazy Vacationer (Jun 11, 2011)

I just talked to a ticket agent at MSP (I walked in), and he said the EB is now cancelled through Wednesday.


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## The Chief (Jun 11, 2011)

The Grand Forks _Herald_ reported that the state's congressional delegation, governor and local officials will meet with the administrator of the FRA and *Amtrak*'s CEO Joe Boardman Wednesday 15 June, concerned that Amtrak's service suspension through North Dakota is entering its second consecutive weekend.


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## colobok (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> You're forgetting that probably half, if not more of those 400 people are coming from the Chicago side. They're not all coming from the western end of the run. Additionally those numbers are both boardings and alightings. If people can't get there, then they're not leaving from there when their trip is over. So that further reduces the number of people that would be riding the stub train from Seattle/Portland.
> 
> On a good day, barring a group, I'd be surprised if the stub train were carrying more than 50 to 60 people into those stops and maybe the same back out. It probably doesn't pay to run the train for that.


Ok, I agree to reduce that number in half, so let's say 200 passengers per day bought tickets to and from Whitefish/Glacier on the western segment. Is flooding in ND an excuse for not providing service to those passengers???

"It probably doesn't pay to run the train for that." - We all know that running Amtrak on almost every route doesn't pay for that. So can we shut down all routes now?

I am not asking to turn train in ND, I don't know if they can do it (although I think they can), but they definitely can turn the train in Whitefish because they run it on other days. So what is the problem to go to Whitefish every day? "It doesn't pay" is a very lame argument, it reminds me of Sunset East.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 11, 2011)

I checked the EB from chi to sea and it shows sold out till wed. Is that due to flooding and other issues. What happened to the backup route BNSF offered amtrak to use?


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## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

colobok said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > You're forgetting that probably half, if not more of those 400 people are coming from the Chicago side. They're not all coming from the western end of the run. Additionally those numbers are both boardings and alightings. If people can't get there, then they're not leaving from there when their trip is over. So that further reduces the number of people that would be riding the stub train from Seattle/Portland.
> ...


First, let's remember that this is all hypothetical. I was just pointing out that 400 was definately wrong. We don't really know how many people would be on that train. It could be that only 1/4th come from the west to that area and the rest come from the east.

Next, there is a difference between losing 50% which is probably the average for the LD's and loosing 80% or even 90%. Remember, we're talking coach only. No sleeper revenue.

Then there are the added costs to Amtrak now, cleaning the train in a place where it never happens. So you have to get people out there to do that and put them up overnight. You've got to put the crew up overnight and you're not doing it under long term contracts like Amtrak would normally do, so that means higher than normal costs. You've got to arrange refueling and of course you've got to get BNSF to agree to run the train and potentially tie up some siding while it overnights in the area.


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## colobok (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> First, let's remember that this is all hypothetical. I was just pointing out that 400 was definately wrong. We don't really know how many people would be on that train. It could be that only 1/4th come from the west to that area and the rest come from the east.
> 
> Next, there is a difference between losing 50% which is probably the average for the LD's and loosing 80% or even 90%. Remember, we're talking coach only. No sleeper revenue.
> 
> Then there are the added costs to Amtrak now, cleaning the train in a place where it never happens. So you have to get people out there to do that and put them up overnight. You've got to put the crew up overnight and you're not doing it under long term contracts like Amtrak would normally do, so that means higher than normal costs. You've got to arrange refueling and of course you've got to get BNSF to agree to run the train and potentially tie up some siding while it overnights in the area.


400 was based on ridership numbers. You are right, that half of them were coming from the east, but 200 remains.

Please tell me how running few more stops may lead from 50% loss to 80-90% loss???

And what overnight stay are you talking about? EB arrives to Whitefish from the west early in the morning and departs in the evening, so no overnight stay.

By the way - Spokane (where they terminate EB on other days) is where overnight stay IS required.


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## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

colobok said:


> 400 was based on ridership numbers. You are right, that half of them were coming from the east, but 200 remains.


We don't know that. There is nothing in the info provided by Amtrak that allows us to draw any conclusions on where riders to those stations originate, nor is there any data available to us that suggests where those boarding from those stops are headed.

Amtrak probably knows, or at least could quickly figure it out. But we have no knowledge of where those people are coming/going to.



colobok said:


> Please tell me how running few more stops may lead from 50% loss to 80-90% loss???


Those extra expenses of running the trains for several hours more and associated with dealing with turning the train there.



colobok said:


> And what overnight stay are you talking about? EB arrives to Whitefish from the west early in the morning and departs in the evening, so no overnight stay.


I suspect that Amtrak under the contracts would be required to overnight the OBS crews there. And certainly the operating crews must overnight there.



colobok said:


> By the way - Spokane (where they terminate EB on other days) is where overnight stay IS required.


Spokane however would have more ridership and the facilities for servicing the trains already exist there.


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## colobok (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> > 400 was based on ridership numbers. You are right, that half of them were coming from the east, but 200 remains.
> ...


Ok, using this logic Amtrak may terminate any train at any point, for example they may terminate Silvers in Orlando if they think "not enough" people bought tickets all the way to Miami, right?



AlanB said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> > And what overnight stay are you talking about? EB arrives to Whitefish from the west early in the morning and departs in the evening, so no overnight stay.
> ...


I don't get that. If train arrives to Whitefish in the morning and goes back to SEA in the evening - how will they overnight? Will they stay to overnight in Whitefish when train goes back without crew???


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## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

colobok said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > colobok said:
> ...


No, the difference is that this situation is part of a larger service disruption that prevents the train from running as normal. What you're describing here is an arbitrary decision to just decide that they shouldn't run to Miami one day. Miami and the rest of the east coast also has many, many more passengers than do the 3 stops in Montana that we're discussing.



colobok said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > colobok said:
> ...


The train arrives into Whitefish and goes back on the same day. The crew does not. The operating crew will max out on hours before they can bring the train back to Spokane. In fact, the operating crew will max out on hours before its even time to start the run back to Spokane. Therefore Amtrak has to drive one crew out in advance, find room in the limited hotel space in that area during its peak season to put up an engineer and 2 conductors each in their own private rooms.

When the train arrives, that operating crew gets off and goes to the hotel, while the crew in the hotel heads for the train to take it back. This isn't negotiable either, as this isn't union rules, these are FRA rules.

And again, while I'm not 100% sure, I strongly suspect that the same thing will need to happen with the OBS crew, meaning still more hotel rooms that must be found and paid for. There is a chance that Amtrak could just send the OBS crew straight back, but I suspect not. Especially with the nearly 12 hour layover. Even if Amtrak can send them right back the same day, with that much down time Amtrak will still have to provide daytime hotel rooms for the crew to rest in.

Especially since there are no sleepers being run in the consist. And I also believe that Amtrak can't just add a sleeper either, as I think that union rules will demand on the ground time for such a layover. Perhaps EB OBS can speak more to the requirements that Amtrak would be facing for the OBS crews were Amtrak to operate this daily to Whitefish.


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## mwmnp (Jun 11, 2011)

I just wanted to add that, with regard to ridership statistics, NARP has in the past released more detailed information than that which can be found on Amtrak's own website. Here is the PDF that details ridership at Whitefish during FY 2010.

As the data show, the most frequent city pair for Whitefish was Seattle, followed by Portland. This includes both passengers boarding or alighting at those two stations as well as passengers connecting to or from other Amtrak services there. Spokane came in at fourth most frequent, while Everett was ranked eighth. The other five cities listed are all east of Whitefish. Unfortunately, the table that breaks down ridership into 100 mile intervals of distance in relationship to the station isn't all that useful in this case, since three of the most frequent city pairs fit into the 500-599 mile interval and two pairs each fit into the 200-299 and 600-699 mile intervals. What can be said, however, is that nearly a third (31.7%, to be exact) of passengers definitely came from, or went to, stations east of Whitefish, as this is the percentage of passengers traveling 700 or more miles to or from the station on just the Empire Builder. The farthest Empire Builder station to the west of Whitefish is Portland at 630 miles.

The rest of the Amtrak information released by NARP can be found at this website.


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## colobok (Jun 12, 2011)

AlanB said:


> No, the difference is that this situation is part of a larger service disruption that prevents the train from running as normal. What you're describing here is an arbitrary decision to just decide that they shouldn't run to Miami one day. Miami and the rest of the east coast also has many, many more passengers than do the 3 stops in Montana that we're discussing.


Service disruption in ND doesn't prevent the train from running in Montana, so it's not an excuse. Also you can change Miami to any other destination.

For example everybody knows that Crescent has more passengers between Atlanta and NYC than to NOL, so can they cancel train to NOL if "not enough riders" bought tickets beyond Atlanta?



AlanB said:


> The train arrives into Whitefish and goes back on the same day. The crew does not. The operating crew will max out on hours before they can bring the train back to Spokane. In fact, the operating crew will max out on hours before its even time to start the run back to Spokane. Therefore Amtrak has to drive one crew out in advance, find room in the limited hotel space in that area during its peak season to put up an engineer and 2 conductors each in their own private rooms.
> 
> When the train arrives, that operating crew gets off and goes to the hotel, while the crew in the hotel heads for the train to take it back. This isn't negotiable either, as this isn't union rules, these are FRA rules.
> 
> ...


You are trying to find excuses and explain why it is impossible to turn the train in Whitefish. But please explain me why it is possible to do this on 06/10 and 06/13? They don't have to stay overnight on those days? Union rules work only on certain days???


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## colobok (Jun 12, 2011)

mwmnp said:


> What can be said, however, is that nearly a third (31.7%, to be exact) of passengers definitely came from, or went to, stations east of Whitefish, as this is the percentage of passengers traveling 700 or more miles to or from the station on just the Empire Builder. The farthest Empire Builder station to the west of Whitefish is Portland at 630 miles.


Which means that 69% of Whitefish passengers came from the west. Thank you.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 12, 2011)

I've been packing for the big move all day so I wasn't able to get any time to read the forums today.

Let's not forget though, that currently, due to the horrid winter we've had, the overall really bad OTP and numerous cancellations this year, that ridership numbers for the Empire Builder are quite a bit lower than normal. A lot, and I mean a lot of passengers have opted out of traveling the highline this season.

Working in Spokane recently, when we had some cancelled trains, we looked at the numbers and on quite a few nights there were from 5 - 20 passengers destined for Whitefish. So I know the numbers have been much lower than normal this season. On the nights we did run a motorcoach to Whitefish, there were occasionally only 3 - 6 people on it. It costs like $2500 per to charter these buses. I can guarantee though that it costs a lot more to run the train.

As far as parking the train, the track it Whitefish is a main track. It's used by BNSF during the day. Spokane has three of it own tracks. Both main 1 and main 2 bypass the Station in Spokane completely. We aren't tying up a main line when the train is parked in Spokane.

Mostly everything AlanB posted about the crew and other costs it spot on too. Yes the train can be and is sometimes turned in Whitefish but there's a lot more to it than just wyeing the train.

BTW, in case you all haven't already heard, I've gotten word that Amtrak is gearing up to run both 8/28 and 7/27 on 6/14/11. Let's hope it happens.

Safe travels


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## mwmnp (Jun 12, 2011)

colobok said:


> mwmnp said:
> 
> 
> > What can be said, however, is that nearly a third (31.7%, to be exact) of passengers definitely came from, or went to, stations east of Whitefish, as this is the percentage of passengers traveling 700 or more miles to or from the station on just the Empire Builder. The farthest Empire Builder station to the west of Whitefish is Portland at 630 miles.
> ...


No, that's incorrect. I should have clarified that the other 68.3% came from or went to Empire Builder stations less than 700 miles away from Whitefish in either direction. There is no way of breaking that percentage down into stations either to the east or west.

I guess it wouldn't be _too_ much of a stretch to say that slightly more passengers getting on or off the train in Whitefish are coming from or going to stations to the east. The average distance traveled on just the Empire Builder by all passengers using the station in Whitefish is 747 miles, which is over 100 miles more than the farthest station west of Whitefish on the Empire Builder route. The average distance for coach-only passengers is 699 miles, which is still more than the most distant western station. For the higher-revenue-generating sleeper passengers, the average distance traveled to or from Whitefish is 927 miles and is no doubt influenced most heavily by passengers traveling in sleeper space to or from either St. Paul (1208 miles) or Chicago (1626 miles).


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## AlanB (Jun 12, 2011)

colobok said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > No, the difference is that this situation is part of a larger service disruption that prevents the train from running as normal. What you're describing here is an arbitrary decision to just decide that they shouldn't run to Miami one day. Miami and the rest of the east coast also has many, many more passengers than do the 3 stops in Montana that we're discussing.
> ...


No, I agree that the service disruption doesn't prevent them from running the train in Montana. I wouldn't argue that.

But it is because of the service disruption that Amtrak has chosen not to run to Montana. Your other random examples aren't including a service disruption as the reason for why Amtrak has chosen to drop the cities indicated in your example. You're just saying that one day Amtrak is going to decide to simply drop those cities because of low ridership period. There is a big difference between making a random decision to just drop some cities for low ridership and deciding to drop a few cities during a service disruption because those cities have low ridership.



colobok said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The train arrives into Whitefish and goes back on the same day. The crew does not. The operating crew will max out on hours before they can bring the train back to Spokane. In fact, the operating crew will max out on hours before its even time to start the run back to Spokane. Therefore Amtrak has to drive one crew out in advance, find room in the limited hotel space in that area during its peak season to put up an engineer and 2 conductors each in their own private rooms.
> ...


I'm not trying to find anything and I resent the implications. When they ran those trains on those particular days they had to bring in crews to run the trains back out. Again, the FRA isn't going to allow the same conductors and engineers to work more than 12 hours. According to the timetable it takes nearly 7 hours to get from Spokanne to Whitefish. The conductors and engineers probably got to Spokane about an hour before the departure, so already they've uses up 8 of their 12 alloted hours by the time they reach Whitefish, assuming no delays. There is no way that they can then sit around from 7:30 when the arrive until the scheduled 9:15 departure without exceeding their 12 hours!

And just sitting in the coaches for 14 hours doesn't constitute proper rest under FRA regs. Therefore they cannot operate the train back to Spokane; their service hours would expire within 4 hours of arrival. So that means that they must be sent to a hotel for rest in order to be able to operate the next day's train back to Spokane. Repeat over and over! So you can rest assured that on the days where they did run a train, Amtrak had to bus/drive in a van, an entire operating crew out to Whitefish just to drive the train back. Most likely on those days, rather than getting a hotel, the also bussed/vanned the crew that took the train out to Whitefish back to Spokanne. But if they were doing this on a daily basis, then they'd be putting them up in hotels.

The same goes for the OBS crew apparently, the crew going out will at a minimum need hotel rooms from arrival until a hour before departure. That's assuming that an overnight isn't mandated under the union contract. Frankly if I were an employee I wouldn't want to have to spend 14 hours sitting in an otherwise empty train and worse, not getting paid for it. And they wouldn't be getting paid for sitting, as Whitefish being the terminating point for that train means that Amtrak stops paying them when they get there.


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## Trogdor (Jun 12, 2011)

While I agree with most of what Alan says, one issue I must correct him on is the operating crew rest. If they have 14 hours in Whitefish, that's far more than the 8 hours rest they need. They'll just spend that time in a hotel, which is the exact same thing they would do if the train ran through to Chicago.

However, I think some of the crews are based in Whitefish anyway. But regardless of their base, the whole operating crew turns over there, so no change to operating crew procedures would be needed from what they normally do.


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## Elise Nelson (Jun 12, 2011)

I am going to be traveling on the Empire Builder on June 21. My question is will the passenger train be running? I and 3 others have a reservation from La Crosse, WI to Seattle, WA.


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## TraneMan (Jun 12, 2011)

Elise Nelson said:


> I am going to be traveling on the Empire Builder on June 21. My question is will the passenger train be running? I and 3 others have a reservation from La Crosse, WI to Seattle, WA.


Elise, I think the train should be running for sure by then (unless more rain comes!).. It's suppose to be up and going mid week this week.


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## Joaninha (Jun 12, 2011)

Trip report, of sorts

We're now back in Seattle after 23 hours of travel, only~ 3 of which were on Amtrak. At the Toledo OH station at 6 am yesterday, we learned that we were among several passengers with reservations for the EB for the 11th , who never called by Amtrak to notify us that the EB was cancelled! The Toledo station folks, who were quite helpful and cordial, said that the very latest info they had from Amtrak was that the cancellation was due to flooding. And when we subsequently called Amtrak during our wait for the 449/49 (which was almost 2 hrs. late, despite what website status checker said) we learned to our amazement that somehow we had been assigned a new reservation on the EB for June 14!!! Amtrak of course had no assistance to offer for what would have been a 3-day "layover" in Chicago for this to happen.

Upon arrival in Chicago, we did get this straightened out, cancelled our EB reservation and got a full refund. Meanwhile my husband had been able to find us last-minute flights to get home at a fairly reasonable cost, from Chicago to Phoenix and Phoenix to Seattle.

Prettyy sad scenario on the Amtrak customer serivce end of thing, We never even had an apology for the errors on their end, nor for the predicament they put us and so many others in, with callous disregard Sure unexpected things happen, but this is no way to treat their paying customers . While making last-minute plans to fly might work for those of us who have the resources and tech tools at hand, but we certainly are not typical of all Amtrak customers. There's been some talk in the past about adding rights for rail passengers to those now in effect for airline passengers, definitely time for action on this.

Maybe these links have already been posted, but as a newbie on this forum these were news to me:

http://www.unitedrail.org/2011/04/07/the-business-and-politics-of-passenger-rail-2011-04-07/

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2008/12/passenger_rights_group_conside.html

This will be a very hectic week, but I will be writing to Amtrak ( and copying to my Congress folks) and will let you know of any response.


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## TransitGeek (Jun 12, 2011)

TraneMan said:


> Elise Nelson said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to be traveling on the Empire Builder on June 21. My question is will the passenger train be running? I and 3 others have a reservation from La Crosse, WI to Seattle, WA.
> ...


IIRC, it was also supposed to be up and going mid week last week.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 13, 2011)

Locusts and frogs...



> 06/12/2011
> 
> Preliminary Report: Mudslide near Leonia, Idaho
> 
> ...


If the EB were running, this would be a problem. As it stands, the 48-hour mudslide moratorium should expire at 8 pm on June 14, so it shouldn't interfere with resuming service.

Mark


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## anir dendroica (Jun 13, 2011)

Better news:



> June 13, 2011 - BNSF's Command Center is managing our responses to flood impacts.
> The Choteau subdivision is out of service west of Power, Montana.
> 
> The Big Sandy subdivision is out of service south of Pacific Jct., Montana.
> ...


http://www.bnsf.com/customers/weather-interruptions/


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## dan72 (Jun 13, 2011)

I also see that Amtrak has taken down their service alert for time being on the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr. For now, I'll take it as a good sign (with fingers crossed, of course)! h34r:


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## dan72 (Jun 13, 2011)

dan72 said:


> I also see that Amtrak has taken down their service alert for time being on the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr. For now, I'll take it as a good sign (with fingers crossed, of course)! h34r:


I spoke too soon...back up, but no change on the date when service is to resume (still June 14th).


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## anir dendroica (Jun 13, 2011)

BNSF is still cleaning up a 30 ft. deep rockslide that closed their mainline in Idaho yesterday afternoon. Track estimated to reopen at 10 pm tonight. That means BNSF has almost 36 hours worth of freight backlog to move. I wouldn't be surprised if the EB is canceled tomorrow for reasons unrelated to flooding.

http://www.theolympian.com/2011/06/13/1685559/rockslide-blocks-rail-tracks-near.html

Mark


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## PRR 60 (Jun 13, 2011)

dan72 said:


> dan72 said:
> 
> 
> > I also see that Amtrak has taken down their service alert for time being on the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr. For now, I'll take it as a good sign (with fingers crossed, of course)! h34r:
> ...


The suspension is now through June 14. The earliest resumption of service is June 15.


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## SBee (Jun 13, 2011)

anir dendroica said:


> BNSF is still cleaning up a 30 ft. deep rockslide that closed their mainline in Idaho yesterday afternoon. Track estimated to reopen at 10 pm tonight. That means BNSF has almost 36 hours worth of freight backlog to move. I wouldn't be surprised if the EB is canceled tomorrow for reasons unrelated to flooding.
> 
> http://www.theolympi...racks-near.html
> 
> Mark


If the EB runs on 15th will it be radically delayed due to the BSNF backlog? Would Amtrak run if they know they're going to be delayed like this?


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## JayPea (Jun 13, 2011)

SBee said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > BNSF is still cleaning up a 30 ft. deep rockslide that closed their mainline in Idaho yesterday afternoon. Track estimated to reopen at 10 pm tonight. That means BNSF has almost 36 hours worth of freight backlog to move. I wouldn't be surprised if the EB is canceled tomorrow for reasons unrelated to flooding.
> ...



I'm pretty sure they'd much rather run late, maybe very late, than not at all.


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## SBee (Jun 13, 2011)

JayPea said:


> SBee said:
> 
> 
> > anir dendroica said:
> ...


I'm scheduled on the EB on the 15th and would rather be canceled than arrive in Chicago too late to make my connection to NY.


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## The Crazy Vacationer (Jun 14, 2011)

Spoke with Amtrak Customer Service about 30 minutes ago.

Empire Builder is now scheduled to resume on Friday, June 17. I'm supposed to be on the train on Saturday, June 18.

The closer I get to my trip,

the further delayed the train becomes,

the higher the probability that I won't get to travel by train.


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## TransitGeek (Jun 14, 2011)

SBee said:


> I'm scheduled on the EB on the 15th and would rather be canceled than arrive in Chicago too late to make my connection to NY.





The Crazy Vacationer said:


> Spoke with Amtrak Customer Service about 30 minutes ago.
> 
> Empire Builder is now scheduled to resume on Friday, June 17. I'm supposed to be on the train on Saturday, June 18.


Looks like you got your wish. What's that they say about being careful what you wish for?


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## tnrkitect (Jun 14, 2011)

Looks like the EB starts running again tomorrow after all! 

Per Amtrak's Facebook Page as of 3:22 pm CDT

Amtrak services on two of three disrupted routes in the Western U.S. will be restored, starting this Wednesday, June 15. Passengers with questions about travel plans on these routes should call Amtrak at 800-USA-RAIL for additional information.

_Empire Builder_ (Trains 7/27 & 8/28)

Amtrak service for the complete route will resume following BNSF Railway Co. track restorations between Devils Lake and Rugby, N.D., and between Sandpoint, Idaho, and Libby, Mont. This resumption is effective on Wednesday, June 15, with the originations of Train 8 from Seattle, Train 28 from Portland and Train 7/27 from Chicago.

_California Zephyr_ (Trains 5 & 6)

Amtrak service for the complete route (except Omaha) will resume effective with the originations of Train 6 from the San Francisco Bay (Emeryville, Calif.) on Wednesday, June 15, and Train 5 from Chicago on Thursday, June 16.

Because of temporary levees built over BNSF Railway Co. track to help protect the cities of Omaha and Bellevue, Neb., these trains will not directly serve Omaha, but alternate transportation will be provided between Lincoln and Omaha (eastbound, Train 6) and between Creston, Iowa, and Omaha (westbound, Train 5).

_Southwest Chief _(Trains 3 & 4)

Amtrak service remains temporarily suspended between Newton, Kan., and Albuquerque due to wildfires near BNSF Railway Co. tracks in New Mexico. Daily _Southwest Chief _service between Chicago and Los Angeles is maintained using a detour route through Texas and Oklahoma. Missed stops in western Kansas, southeastern Colorado and northeastern New Mexico will be served by chartered motorcoaches or local commuter trains, as available (except Trinidad, Colo., and Raton & Las Vegas, N.M.).

Also temporarily suspended are Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach Routes 8603 & 8604 between Raton and Denver, along with the Lamy (N.M.) Shuttle.


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## anir dendroica (Jun 14, 2011)

From BNSF:



> To: All Impacted Customers
> 
> 06/14/2011
> 
> ...


With the slide cleared and the Devils Lake tracks returned to service, there are no more blockages on the EB route. There is probably a 48-hour passenger train moratorium from the slide in effect until the morning of June 16, and BNSF will be clearing out a logjam of freight trains (ever wonder if that might be part of the reason for the 48-hour rule?). After that we *should* be good to go, unless there are more slides, floods, plagues, terrorist attacks, meteor impacts, etc...

Mark


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## SBee (Jun 14, 2011)

TransitGeek said:


> SBee said:
> 
> 
> > I'm scheduled on the EB on the 15th and would rather be canceled than arrive in Chicago too late to make my connection to NY.
> ...


I'll take the trip another time, it'll be less stressful than having to worry about being stuck somewhere in the Midwest. Hope it's up an running SOON for everyone else!


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## Ispolkom (Jun 14, 2011)

Amtrak posted to Facebook that both the California Zephyr and the Empire Builder will run tomorrow. Thanks to *Leemell* for finding this and posting it to another thread.

Do locomotives still have sand distributors, to give traction when they encounter clouds of locusts? Just wondering.

Edit: both trains 8 and 28 show no inventory for tomorrow. Train 7/27 shows 1 roomette available. Take that as you will.


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 14, 2011)

Wait until this Winter around Devils Lake....they'll need the sanders to get through all the ice splashed up on the track on cold, windy Winter days.....


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## JayPea (Jun 14, 2011)

Not that it makes a huge difference, but I'm scheduled to leave Spokane in the wee small hours of the morning next Tuesday for Seattle, returning from Portland to Spokane next Friday. (And, yes, I've got a reservation from Seattle to Portland on Friday as well!) I was going to get to Seattle one way or another, but wasn't sure if it would be by bus or by train. Looks like it's the train! I didn't want to ride a crappy bus to Seattle/from Portland but that's certainly preferable to staying home.


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## SBee (Jun 14, 2011)

SBee said:


> TransitGeek said:
> 
> 
> > SBee said:
> ...


Nevermind, looks like I'm heading out tomorrow after all!


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## aurora_1101 (Jun 15, 2011)

Looks like the resumption of service may be limited. This is from the weather bureau in Grand Forks:

HYDROLOGIC OUTLOOK

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE EASTERN NORTH DAKOTA/GRAND FORKS ND

500 PM CDT TUE JUN 14 2011

...MULTIPLE PRECIPITATION EVENTS LIKELY INTO NEXT WEEK...

A PROLONGED UNSETTLED WEATHER PATTERN IS EXPECTED ACROSS EASTERN

NORTH DAKOTA AND NORTHWESTERN MINNESOTA FOR MUCH OF THE UPCOMING

SEVEN DAYS. THERE WILL BE A SERIES OF UPPER LEVEL DISTURBANCES

WHICH ARE EXPECTED TO CROSS THE AREA DURING THIS PERIOD. ALTHOUGH IT

WILL NOT RAIN EVERY DAY...THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF MULTIPLE

SIGNIFICANT RAINFALL EVENTS OVER THE PERIOD MAY LEAD TO LOCALIZED

AREAL AND RIVERINE FLOODING ACROSS PORTIONS OF THE RED RIVER VALLEY

AND DEVILS LAKE BASIN. AT THE PRESENT TIME...THE MOST SIGNIFICANT

PRECIPITATION IS EXPECTED THIS WEEKEND AND PERSISTING INTO THE

FIRST HALF OF NEXT WEEK.

SOILS ACROSS THE AREA HAVE DRIED OUT SIGNIFICANTLY FROM THE SPRING

FLOODS OF APRIL AND MAY. RAINFALL AMOUNTS FOR THE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF

JUNE ACROSS THE RED RIVER VALLEY AND DEVILS LAKE BASIN HAVE

GENERALLY BEEN BELOW NORMAL. HOWEVER...A PROLONGED PERIOD WITH

ROUNDS OF SIGNIFICANT PRECIPITATION COULD REVERSE THIS TREND AND

ONCE AGAIN INTRODUCE A POTENTIAL OF FLOODING FOR PORTIONS OF THE

AREA.

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR THIS

DEVELOPING HYDROLOGIC SITUATION AND WILL ISSUE ADDITIONAL STATEMENTS

AND FORECASTS AS THE WEATHER TRENDS BECOME BETTER ESTABLISHED.

COOPERATIVE WEATHER OBSERVERS ARE URGED TO SEND IN DAILY

PRECIPITATION REPORTS DURING THIS PERIOD AS THESE RAINFALL AMOUNTS

WILL BE VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE HYDROLOGIC FORECASTS.


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## tnrkitect (Jun 15, 2011)

This does not bode well for my segment on the EB starting on the 27th hboy: *keeping fingers crossed*


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## tnrkitect (Jun 16, 2011)

Well the first Westbound EB has passed through Devils Lake and was only running 2.5 hours late as of Rugby.

Better late than not running at all!


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