# Hoosier State in Jeopardy



## TML (Sep 21, 2012)

It has been reported that due to funding disagreements between Amtrak and the State of Indiana, the Hoosier State could be eliminated as early as next October.

I just hope that this will somehow serve as a "wake up call" to pave the way for increased frequencies on the Cardinal...


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## Shanghai (Sep 21, 2012)

I assume that when you say next October, that means October 2013.

I'm booked on the Hoosier State this October!!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 21, 2012)

Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.


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## afigg (Sep 21, 2012)

Shanghai said:


> I assume that when you say next October, that means October 2013.
> 
> I'm booked on the Hoosier State this October!!


Yes, the deadline is October 1, 2013. This is not coming as a surprise because Indiana has shown no to little interest in providing the soon to be required operating subsidy for the 4 day a week service.

There is an IndyStar newspaper article on the funding situation: Lafayette may lose daily Amtrak service next year. Excerpts:



> LAFAYETTE, Ind. -- The northern Indiana city of Lafayette could lose its daily Amtrak passenger service next year unless a funding dispute between state and federal officials is resolved.
> The Journal & Courier reports Amtrak has confirmed that it plans to end the Hoosier State route that runs from Lafayette to Chicago effective Oct. 1, 2013.


IN DOT surprisingly appears to be confused about the situation because the requirement for state support of trains was set in the 2008 PRIIA act. Amtrak is working out the operating support amounts with all the other states.



> As for the dispute itself, Amtrak maintains that states are responsible for fully funding routes shorter than 750 miles and that the funding methodology was established by Congress in 2008.
> The Indiana Department of Transportation doesn't agree.
> 
> "Our understanding is that the methodology was a discussion and was not a commitment to subsidize the Hoosier State," Will Wingfield, INDOT spokesman, told the Journal & Courier. "There was no money provided along with the federal mandate. It is still not entirely known what Amtrak is requesting of Indiana."


The best near term solution is a daily Cardinal service but there are track capacity issues with CSX and the Buckingham Branch Railroad. The longer term solution would be for Indiana to support a multiple daily frequency corridor service between CHI and Indianapolis with major track upgrades, but that won't happen anytime soon.


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## Gratt (Sep 21, 2012)

Honestly, the Hoosier state in its current incarnation is a waste of a train set.

I "get" why its schedule is tied with the Card but it does not make the timing any better. Either create a real daily Hoosier independent of the Card or use the train set to increase service where there is demand.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 21, 2012)

Well, PRIIA is pretty clear in my book and as a resident of state with state supported trains, while I wish there was more federal support, it at least levels the playing field. If ID(i)OT didn't understand it, my thought is they weren't paying attention until they got the official notification.

With that said, if Indiana has to pay for it, they ought to get better times at Indiana points, a quicker schedule navigating through Chicago, and separate it from the Cardinal. And a cafe car. The present incarnation of the Hoosier State is pretty pathetic.


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## Amtrak George (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm confused (I hate it when that happens): I didn't think the Hoosier State was ever one of those state supported trains. It is not listed thus in the timetable although many others are.

I guess Amtrak is looking at this situation saying, well, the law says states are supposed to support shorter runs within those states. But has Indiana ever paid for this train, or is this a new request? If this is a new request, maybe it would have been better for Amtrak and Indiana to discuss things before releasing this to the media (unless they already did). :blink:

Most of us know the main reason Amtrak needs the Hoosier State is to shuttle cars back and forth between Chicago and Beech Grove shops near Indianapolis. What will they do about that if they discontinue the Hoosier State? :help:

Well, if the state pays for it the train needs a better schedule and some kind of food service. OR Amtrak just needs to run the Cardinal daily IF they can get host RR permission.


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## AlanB (Sep 21, 2012)

Amtrak George said:


> I'm confused (I hate it when that happens): I didn't think the Hoosier State was ever one of those state supported trains. It is not listed thus in the timetable although many others are.


The HS is not currently a State supported train. It came into being when Amtrak cancelled the Kentucky Cardinal. Amtrak was willing to take the losses on the train because they wanted two things. One, they wanted to hang onto the daily time slot that the K-Card had given them. This is helpful towards eventually running daily the whole way to NY.

Second they wanted the daily ability to shuttle cars to/from Beech Grove.

PRIIA rules say that the HS cannot continue to exist anymore, unless Indiana or by some odd miracle Illinois suddenly steps up to cover the losses. There is nothing Amtrak can do at this point as it's been taken out of their hands by the law. I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.


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## Amtrak George (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks, Alan. I'm unconfused now!


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## MrFSS (Sep 21, 2012)

AlanB said:


> I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.


If you are talking about the train that ran between Chicago and Louisville (actually just across the river in Indiana) then that is about 300 miles as the highway runs. Maybe a little longer the way the train ran.


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## Anderson (Sep 21, 2012)

MrFSS said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not even sure if restoring the K-Card would get them over the 750 mile mark, at which point they could keep it running.
> ...


It looks like the only way to stitch that together would be to run all the way to Nashville (or something like that). That's not happening...Amtrak just doesn't have the cars for such an operation, and a dead-end run into Nashville would (IMHO) be a thinly-patronized run given both likely track speeds and the lack of anything to connect to outside of CHI.

One thing I _do_ wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that _something_ can be preserved in that slot.


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## johnny.menhennet (Sep 21, 2012)

Anderson said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


hits BB at Clifton Forge


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## AlanB (Sep 21, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


And that's 710 miles from Chicago. So that doesn't help, even if it made sense to terminate there.


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## Amtrak Cajun (Sep 21, 2012)

It would be easier to make the Cardinal daily than to keep the HS going at this point.

If the HS does terminate, the extra cars *and engines* could be used as spares on other routes that would need *or could use* the capacity. Not sure what those routes are, but the opportunity is there. If the Cardinal *even at current schedule* can manage to serve adequately then great, I know we would all love to see the Cardinal go daily, myself included.

As the old saying goes, when one door closes, another one opens, there could be better opportunities ahead, daily Cardinal being one of them. Just my opinion.


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## afigg (Sep 21, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I _do_ wonder about, though...where does the Card hit the BBRR? I can't help but wonder if there's not some way to get a full service that "pairs" with the existing Card (say, a resurrected Hilltopper or something on the Powhatan Arrow's old route) so that _something_ can be preserved in that slot.
> ...


The Cardinal route branches off from NS to the BB RR at Orange, then to Gordonsville to Charlottesville to Staunton to Clifton Forge. BBRR's website has a handy system map. As I have noted before, Virginia is providing a respectable amount of funding for track maintenance and signal system replacement to the BBRR via the state Shortline Railway Preservation and Development program in increment through FY2015 for the BB North Mountain and Orange subdivisions. So the BB tracks should be getting in better shape in the coming years.

Virginia would benefit from a daily Cardinal service because it would mean a daily CVS to WAS/NYP service with afternoon arrival/departure times. Daily service from VA to WV should attract a much larger customer base than a 3 day a week schedule oddity. How CSX feels about daily service through WV and on the BB is another matter.


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## Anderson (Sep 22, 2012)

Honestly, I think the "easy" option might be to look at a reroute via LYH, ROA, and Bluefield, at least for the "other" days. If you could run _that_ daily, I'd be inclined to keep the existing Cardinal as a connecting "day train" and run the other as an overnight train that connects with it in Cincy (potentially with through cars). Basically, you'd have daily service over the CIN-CHI section of the Card's route, and over the NYP-CVS portion. NYP-CIN is a long enough run to be an LD train; likewise, you could set things up whereby the CVS-CIN section breaks off, runs through WV, and rejoins the "main" train at CIN with whatever hold is needed to make that work while implicitly forcing the CIN-CHI times later by a few hours (and potentially offering decent times for CIN, something that the current route is probably too short to manage).

What this would do for losses on the resulting tangle of trains is anyone's guess. On the one hand, I suspect you'd get a modest increase; on the other hand, having a spaced-out NYP-LYH/ROA connection _should_ increment a lot of revenue to the route (and give the Lynchburger a modest bump as well by offering the "backwards frequency" talked up at times). Better CIN-CHI times WB would also likely help (as might an earlier EB arrival in Indianapolis...sorry, but 11:50 PM is going to register as "no sale" for a lot of people). On the other hand, the CVS-CIN section may end up going to hell in a handbasket in terms of ridership (though it would presumably still have the EB traffic from CIN and points east).

Mind you, this has always been a problem for the Cardinal (and its predecessors)...the route is an awkward merger of two routes that end up being too long for good one-night service while keeping connections in CHI, and far too short to do anything else. In general, I can't help but ponder whether it might not simply be more effective to treat each end (CHI-CIN and CVS-NYP) as a corridor and time it to offer service to those cities while stretching out the middle as needed.


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## Amtrak George (Sep 22, 2012)

I agree that adding routes would be great, but right now with Amtrak hanging on for dear life financially, it is more feasible to change to daily operation on the Cardinal. The crews, facilities, etc. are already in place. I have tried several times to get sleeper space on the Card and it is ALWAYS sold out. I used to ride it in Superliner days when you could get sleeper space on reasonable notice.

I sure hope CSX and the Buckingham Branch RR will agree to daily frequency. The Cardinal will do even better if so, in spite of the slow times and weird hours.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 22, 2012)

Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are_* Hoosier State*_ pax able to access the_* Cardinal*_ Lounge Car? And I guess on non-_*Cardinal*_ days it is Coaches only with no service.


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## jis (Sep 22, 2012)

CSX does not agree to daily service on BBRR until considerable amount of siding lengthening and other work is completed. There is absolutely zero chance of the Cardinal going daily even if the equipment was readily available to achieve that before 2015.


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## OBS (Sep 22, 2012)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are_* Hoosier State*_ pax able to access the_* Cardinal*_ Lounge Car? And I guess on non-_*Cardinal*_ days it is Coaches only with no service.


Just to be clear, these are two separate trains that operate on separate days. On days the Cardinal is running, local pax. are booked into LD coaches and have use of the Cafe/Dinette. The other days are as you suggested w/o food svc.


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## Paulus (Sep 22, 2012)

Why not see instead if Indiana would be willing to support it if the Cardinal were cancelled instead and its sets used for rather more frequent service between Indianapolis and Chicago?


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## zephyr17 (Sep 22, 2012)

Paulus said:


> Why not see instead if Indiana would be willing to support it if the Cardinal were cancelled instead and its sets used for rather more frequent service between Indianapolis and Chicago?


Indiana state government historically is fairly hostile to supporting passenger rail, so probably not. Their bureaucracy clearly was not aware of the PRIIA requirements until they got notified so they are far from pro-active on the subject, too.


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## jphjaxfl (Sep 22, 2012)

When Amtrak first started, Indiana has fairly decent service. Indianpolis has 6 through trains daily; the National LTD from Washington to St. Louis and Kansas City, the South Wind/Floridian from Chicago to Florida and The James Whitcomb Riley/George Washington from Chicago to Cincinnati to Washington and Newport News. The Penn Central was in terrible finacial shape and deferred maintenance on most of their lines through Indiana which was resulting in very late trains, temporary re-routes followed by permanant re-routes. After Conrail took over, many lines that Amtrak used were abandoned. The state of Indiana should have stepped in with some sort of subsidy to maintain the lines. Some of the lines had had respectable speed limits and reasonable schedules before the Penn Central problems. I rode Pennsylvania's South Wind in the mid 1960s when it left Chicago at 8:45AM CT and arrived in Louisville at 4:00PM ET so 6 hours and 15 min to cover 313 miles at an average speed of 50 MPH with stops at Englewood, Logansport Van Station and Indianapolis with flag stops at Seymour and Columbus and a back up move into Louisville Union Station. While going to college in those years, I worked as a desk clerk at a motel between Sellersburg and Jeffersonville, IN in the afternoon when the south bound South Wind thundered by accross the road. You could almost set your watch by time every other day timing. The north bound left Louisville at 12;55PM so I wasn't usually at work when it went by, however, the L&N was more likely to bring the northbound into Louisville late than the Pennsylvania was with the south bound. I think the trackage deterioration in Indiana had a lot to do with the present attitude of the politicians.


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## Nickrapak (Sep 23, 2012)

Question: How often does the Hoosier State run without any additional cars from Beech Grove? I'm thinking that Amtrak might be able to argue before Congress that the Hoosier State serves as a "revenue deadhead" in that the train would have to run anyway to move cars from Chicago to Beech Grove, and opening a car up to passengers serves as an offset to some of the cost of moving the cars. It might not be entirely true, but it's also not entirely a lie: just the way people in DC like it!


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## Donctor (Sep 23, 2012)

OBS said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity since I have not ridden either train are_* Hoosier State*_ pax able to access the_* Cardinal*_ Lounge Car? And I guess on non-_*Cardinal*_ days it is Coaches only with no service.
> ...


Are the IND cars no longer running on Cardinal days?


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## Anderson (Sep 23, 2012)

Nickrapak said:


> Question: How often does the Hoosier State run without any additional cars from Beech Grove? I'm thinking that Amtrak might be able to argue before Congress that the Hoosier State serves as a "revenue deadhead" in that the train would have to run anyway to move cars from Chicago to Beech Grove, and opening a car up to passengers serves as an offset to some of the cost of moving the cars. It might not be entirely true, but it's also not entirely a lie: just the way people in DC like it!


Well, and beyond that, doing so likely gives them use of the slot for a lower cost/with less hassle. Amtrak has always had trouble arranging any non-passenger moves (witness the Fast Mail headaches that Conrail was able to dish out).


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## Trogdor (Sep 23, 2012)

The Hoosier state runs with Beech Grove equipment maybe twice per week. The Cardinal, on the other hand, almost never does.

Shift the days that the Beech Grove equipment gets shuttled back and forth to days when the Cardinal runs, and the justification for running the Hoosier State pretty much disappears.


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## NE933 (Sep 24, 2012)

How many cars make a typical Hoosier train? And what are some sample average ridership station combos?


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## Trogdor (Sep 24, 2012)

One or two revenue coaches, and whatever they need to throw together to meet CN's minimum axle-count restrictions.


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## TCRT (Sep 24, 2012)

I believe a typical _Hoosier State_ consist would be two Horizon coaches (I have observed it as two Amfleet I coaches on one occasion). If the _Cardinal_ is running, they are added/removed at IND, unless the comments by *OBS* indicate that this is no longer the case. As far as I can tell via YouTube, as of late May the Horizons still appeared on the back of the _Cardinal_ from Indianapolis to Chicago on days when that train was running (

. 
I have traveled IND-CHI or CHI-IND a total of three times - twice, I was seated in one of the Horizons, as is the intended use of those cars, and once I was lucky and was placed in the long distance seating in an Amfleet II.


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## Trogdor (Sep 24, 2012)

The IND cars on the Cardinal are pretty much a just summer thing.


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## johnny.menhennet (Sep 24, 2012)

TCRT said:


> it's a _very_ short train if there are no deadheads


akin to this perhaps?







the difference is that only 1 of these cars is a revenue coach!


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## Nathanael (Sep 24, 2012)

Nickrapak said:


> Question: How often does the Hoosier State run without any additional cars from Beech Grove? I'm thinking that Amtrak might be able to argue before Congress that the Hoosier State serves as a "revenue deadhead" in that the train would have to run anyway to move cars from Chicago to Beech Grove, and opening a car up to passengers serves as an offset to some of the cost of moving the cars. It might not be entirely true, but it's also not entirely a lie: just the way people in DC like it!


Heh. I have a better one: announce a daily Cardinal service (long-distance, so exempt from PRIIA requirements) and then announce that "service has been suspended on four days a week east of Indianapolis", using the "suspended service" precedent of the Sunset Limited. Hell, it's even the same railroad (CSX)....


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 24, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Nickrapak said:
> 
> 
> > Question: How often does the Hoosier State run without any additional cars from Beech Grove? I'm thinking that Amtrak might be able to argue before Congress that the Hoosier State serves as a "revenue deadhead" in that the train would have to run anyway to move cars from Chicago to Beech Grove, and opening a car up to passengers serves as an offset to some of the cost of moving the cars. It might not be entirely true, but it's also not entirely a lie: just the way people in DC like it!
> ...


You know guys, I don't think it's that easy to thwart the law, and why would Amtrak want to? If Indiana isn't interested in the train (and the state government under Mitch Daniels and the Republicans clearly isn't), then it's gone. Hook up the Beech Grove cars to the Cardinal and carry on. Indiana has the choice. It can be enlightened like Illinois, Michigan and Missouri or backward like Wisconsin and Ohio. And they don't call the Hoosier State the "south of the north" for nothing.


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## Nathanael (Sep 24, 2012)

Yeah, that proposal was just a Sunset Limited joke.

I have to say, retaining Beech Grove is beginning to seem seriously questionable for Amtrak; it's appallingly located now. What special facilities does it have? How hard would it be to relocate the entire operation?


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## AlanB (Sep 24, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> I have to say, retaining Beech Grove is beginning to seem seriously questionable for Amtrak; it's appallingly located now. What special facilities does it have? How hard would it be to relocate the entire operation?


Hard, isn't the issue. Expense is the issue. It would cost a lot to move things.

And BEE has space, probably cheaper labor than other places, lots of shop buildings, paint shop, wheel shops and many other things that while movable it probably doesn't make sense to try to move. Especially from the $$'s side of things.


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## NE933 (Sep 24, 2012)

So this train is essentially one or two operating coaches with a locomotive, pulling sick rolling stock. The ridership, judging by the anecdotal descriptions, is generally low. Perhaps then seeing the light it does make sense to put this up to a decision. Incidentally, where are the sick cars set out, and how far is it from there to BG? Miles? Time to get there?


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## NE933 (Sep 24, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say, retaining Beech Grove is beginning to seem seriously questionable for Amtrak; it's appallingly located now. What special facilities does it have? How hard would it be to relocate the entire operation?
> ...


But the locaion of BG in relation to the system makes it strategic like no other: you want someplace that is centric so that no region would be stranded if several derailments were to afflict a particular line in a short period. Plus the place is a wizard scientist's workout room: paint and wheel shops and other crafts that have gone overseas, if Amtrak leadership messes with BG now it might be suicidal. Maybe consider something like this a decade down the road from now, if the fleet grows as desired and the environment in Congress stabilizes a bit. You never want to perform a major change when you're vulnerable.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 25, 2012)

I guess the Cardinal could be made daily CHI-CIN, then daily service extension to HUn and Charleston. They could bypass even Charleston on the old N&W route for dily servce on the entire route. How good is that line, though?


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## Paulus (Sep 25, 2012)

Honestly, I don't see Beech Grove as a terribly important reason to keep the Hoosier State. It's not all that terribly expensive to set up new maintenance shops and in the rest of the world, adding on a maintenance contract with a guaranteed availability rate is pretty much the norm when buying new equipment. With the requirement for a new Superliner replacement in the near future as well as the Amfleet and Acela replacements (which I'd prefer to be consolidated anyhow into a single NEC train set), it's not unlikely that you'd see new shops and whatnot built. I'd be rather surprised if California didn't opt for a shop regardless of anything else actually.


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## johnny.menhennet (Sep 25, 2012)

Paulus said:


> Honestly, I don't see Beech Grove as a terribly important reason to keep the Hoosier State. It's not all that terribly expensive to set up new maintenance shops and in the rest of the world, adding on a maintenance contract with a guaranteed availability rate is pretty much the norm when buying new equipment. With the requirement for a new Superliner replacement in the near future as well as the Amfleet and Acela replacements (which I'd prefer to be consolidated anyhow into a single NEC train set), it's not unlikely that you'd see new shops and whatnot built. I'd be rather surprised if California didn't opt for a shop regardless of anything else actually.


California has two maintenance facilities as is, with the one in LA being quite significant.


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## Anderson (Sep 25, 2012)

There are shops/yards of varying sizes at New York City (Sunnyside), Miami (Hialeah), Boston, Chicago, and Los Angeles. I'm not sure on the capabilities of all of them, however.


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## cirdan (Sep 25, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Yeah, that proposal was just a Sunset Limited joke.
> 
> I have to say, retaining Beech Grove is beginning to seem seriously questionable for Amtrak; it's appallingly located now. What special facilities does it have? How hard would it be to relocate the entire operation?


Maybe that's what Amtrak should be telling the state governor (or whoever is responsible for approving the funding).

Tell them we have this facility in your state, employing this many people, with this much tax revenue etc. Do you want us to close it or will you help us fund it?

Even if they wouldn't really move (because it would be too expensive or they risk losing skilled people etc), in politics you sometimes have to bluff.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 25, 2012)

Anderson said:


> There are shops/yards of varying sizes at New York City (Sunnyside), Miami (Hialeah), Boston, Chicago, and Los Angeles. I'm not sure on the capabilities of all of them, however.


Ideally you want a facility like this to be as central as possible to minimize overall travel time and based on that along with what is there, Beech Grove is about as good as you can get.


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## Shanghai (Sep 25, 2012)

*Maybe if the Hoosier State is eliminated, the Beech Grove repair shops could*

*be relocated to Lebanon, Kansas. It is the Geographic center of the contiguous United States!!*


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## Donctor (Sep 25, 2012)

Or, Beech Grove can be kept where it is, the Hoosier State can be discontinued, and CHI can just place things on the back of the Cardinal.


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## Nathanael (Sep 25, 2012)

Anderson said:


> There are shops/yards of varying sizes at New York City (Sunnyside), Miami (Hialeah), Boston, Chicago, and Los Angeles. I'm not sure on the capabilities of all of them, however.


I found a very interesting brochure:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/533/3/Amtrak-Mechanical-Services-201109.pdf

Amtrak considers itself to have three "major back shops" (its term): one is Beech Grove. The other two are at Bear, Delaware (which does heavy work on Amfleets and Acelas), and shops/yards at Wilmington, DE (which deals with the electric locomotive fleet). Together, Bear and Wilmington have the expertise and equipment to handle practically everything except diesel locomotives and dining cars.

I don't know if Bear or Wilmington could be expanded. Bear is the logical place to expand.

The other 12 shops have much more limited facilities. Boston, New York, DC, Chicago, New Haven, and Seattle are on fairly cramped sites and probably couldn't expand too much. Some of the others might be able to expand quite a lot, including LA.

Most of the shops are very close to Amtrak stations. Notably, Beech Grove is about as far from Indianapolis station (~6 miles) as Bear is from the NEC; but Bear is on a branch line which is probably used more for Amtrak traffic than for freight, so shuttling cars to it is easy. (The cars coming and going from Beech Grove are set out at Indianapolis Union Station on a spare track, for the person who asked.)

Beech Grove has been isolated by the repeated drops in service surrounding it. Although it could get tolerable service if CSX was willing to do the shuttling to and from Chicago, it isn't even well located on the freight network any more; most of the lines north and south out of Indianapolis have been downgraded. (Also, notice the difficulty the Cardinal has finding a good route into Chicago.) With Bear and Wilmington already present and handling most of the NEC fleet, something closer to Chicago would be a lot better. I don't know if there are any redundant railyards in the cheap land on the South Side of Chicago -- or perhaps Gary -- but that would be the logical location (lots of connections to lots of lines, not *too* far to relocate Beech Grove workers, room to expand). The freight yards seem to be expanding in that area so there may not be any available space, though.

Perhaps the thing to do *is* to warn the governor and legislature of Indiana that their failure to fund trains to Indianapolis is threatening the viability of the Beech Grove location. If that gets more trains to Indianapolis, great.

Beech Grove is no longer "as central as possible to minimize overall travel time" -- it's now located so as to maximize overall travel time.

Amtrak's shops are already having a problem with "cars not arriving as scheduled" (due to intensive use of the fleet). Accessing Beech Grove only three days a week on one of the most unreliable Amtrak trains (to Indianapolis, followed by a switcher job to Beech Grove!) can only make this problem worse! It would then generally be faster to get to shops located in *Denver*, because the Zephyr runs daily!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 26, 2012)

I guess BEE could be moved from IND to CHI or MKE, but those places don't have space or support, and I love BEE, don't want it closed.


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## Anderson (Sep 26, 2012)

CHI might have some support given what IL has been doing with their services. Moreover, CHI is the hub for eight LD trains, at least six corridor routes that are in no danger of being dropped (plus an indirect connection to the MoRR), three new proposed corridors (Quad Cities, the Blackhawk, and MN's proposed additional MSP-CHI train), and can plausibly link indirectly into at least one or two other suggested corridors (the various MO corridors and the Northern Lights Express proposal). Note that I'm excluding the Hoosier State and _anything_ involving Ohio.


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## CHamilton (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm currently on the Cardinal that left Chicago yesterday with several PV cars (5?) on the back. The conductor said that at least one of them had been totally gutted. Apparently they were taken off at IND, although I slept through it. Does BEE work on PV?


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## jis (Sep 26, 2012)

There is no need to move BEE anywhere. three trips per week is more than sufficient to do all the ferrying that is ever going to be necessary. In unusual circumstances an additional special move of a hospital train can always be arranged with the host railroad, but need for such should be few and far between.


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## Ryan (Sep 26, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Amtrak considers itself to have three "major back shops" (its term): one is Beech Grove. The other two are at Bear, Delaware (which does heavy work on Amfleets and Acelas), and shops/yards at Wilmington, DE (which deals with the electric locomotive fleet). Together, Bear and Wilmington have the expertise and equipment to handle practically everything except diesel locomotives and dining cars.


I'm pretty sure that you'd have trouble getting Superliners into either Bear or Wilmington.

I did really like your line about "temporarily suspending service" - if it works for the Sunset East, it should work for a daily Cardinal, right? 

My personal feeling is that the HS is going to go away, Amtrak will live with 3x/week shuttles from Beech Grove, and maybe we'll see a daily Cardinal at some point in my lifetime.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 26, 2012)

Ryan said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak considers itself to have three "major back shops" (its term): one is Beech Grove. The other two are at Bear, Delaware (which does heavy work on Amfleets and Acelas), and shops/yards at Wilmington, DE (which deals with the electric locomotive fleet). Together, Bear and Wilmington have the expertise and equipment to handle practically everything except diesel locomotives and dining cars.
> ...


Hoosier State has come and gone in the past. In the mid-90s it wasn't running and there was only the 3x/week Cardinal and Beech Grove survived as a major backshop.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 26, 2012)

Ryan said:


> I'm pretty sure that you'd have trouble getting Superliners into either Bear or Wilmington.


Let's see if I can get this to post without the network going down on me. :blink:

Being one with a gnat size knowledge of these things, could the Superliners come to Wilm/Bear via the Pennsy & NEC or are the catenaries a problem? I know the tunnels in Baltimore & NJ/NY are why they can't run between WAS and NYP.


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## NE933 (Sep 26, 2012)

Regarding our talks of Beech Grove, don't we have ay Amtrak folks on here who can comment on whar Joey and team are thinking?

Haha, Joey - as if he's my high school buddy..


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## NW cannonball (Sep 26, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> I'm currently on the Cardinal that left Chicago yesterday with several PV cars (5?) on the back. The conductor said that at least one of them had been totally gutted. Apparently they were taken off at IND, although I slept through it. Does BEE work on PV?


Yes, according to the brochure cited and my unreliable memory, BEE is one of the few places that PV can have their wheels turned, and more important, get their trucks re-certified. There's a 5-year old photo tour on the web that shows the Beech Grove shops re-heat-treating repaired truck frames - a service that is hard to find anywhere else. If I remember correctly getting your trucks re-certified need a shop with a totally flat 2x3 meter test plate and the four or six wheels can't be out of alignment by a half-millimeter.

I'm thinking it would be difficult and expensive to relocate the Beech Grove shops because of the unique concentration of skilled workers who have settled in there. Some functions could be easily moved - but the skills to maintain and even re-manufacture rare old parts would be difficult to re-create at another site. Because of Amtrak's limited budget for new cars, BEE has to keep the capability of maintaining and supporting a lot of ancient rolling stock.


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## MrFSS (Sep 26, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> There's a 5-year old photo tour on the web that shows the Beech Grove shops re-heat-treating repaired truck frames - a service that is hard to find anywhere else. If I remember correctly getting your trucks re-certified need a shop with a totally flat 2x3 meter test plate and the four or six wheels can't be out of alignment by a half-millimeter.
> 
> I'm thinking it would be difficult and expensive to relocate the Beech Grove shops because of the unique concentration of skilled workers who have settled in there. Some functions could be easily moved - but the skills to maintain and even re-manufacture rare old parts would be difficult to re-create at another site. Because of Amtrak's limited budget for new cars, BEE has to keep the capability of maintaining and supporting a lot of ancient rolling stock.


I was at the BEE tour a few years ago, too. Pictures I took are *HERE*. You can get some idea of the size of the place, I think. Moving all that to a new location would be very difficult - and expensive.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 26, 2012)

Anderson said:


> CHI might have some support given what IL has been doing with their services. Moreover, CHI is the hub for eight LD trains, at least six corridor routes that are in no danger of being dropped (plus an indirect connection to the MoRR), three new proposed corridors (Quad Cities, the Blackhawk, and MN's proposed additional MSP-CHI train), and can plausibly link indirectly into at least one or two other suggested corridors (the various MO corridors and the Northern Lights Express proposal). Note that I'm excluding the Hoosier State and _anything_ involving Ohio.


CHI would be the only logical place to move to, IMO. I know there's a buch of wasteland around East Chicago.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 26, 2012)

This is a whole lot of speculation about nothing. Beech Grove is a big complex that would be very difficult to reproduce elsewhere. I believe it began life as the New York Central's main passenger shops. Amtrak's cars and locomotives are on wheels, they can be moved to anywhere on the national rail network. Chicago might be a better choice of a central repair facility if we were starting from the ground up, but we're not, so Beech Grove will be the main repair shops for years to come. Hook up the cars and locos to the Cardinal or run a special train, it's really not a big deal if the Hoosier State disappears. If I were running things, tracks and signals would be upgraded, a better entrance to Chicago would be launched (stay on ex-GTW to Harvey, then up the former IC main to 79th St., then on Amtrak eastern gateway route separate from the NS to Union Station), with 3 to 4 RT's a day, in addition to a daily Cardinal, but I'm not. It's up to Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels and a Republican-controlled legislature, that wants nothing to do with trains or transit in general.


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## Nathanael (Sep 28, 2012)

Well, I suspect what will happen if Indiana continues to be uninterested in passenger rail is that Amtrak will start adding more and more facilities to Chicago and LA to reduce the *need* to move things to Beech Grove. This sort of change is a slow process.... it wouldn't happen overnight, it would just be that every time Amtrak decided it needed to expand facilities, it would expand them somewhere other than Beech Grove, and then one day....


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## jis (Sep 28, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Well, I suspect what will happen if Indiana continues to be uninterested in passenger rail is that Amtrak will start adding more and more facilities to Chicago and LA to reduce the *need* to move things to Beech Grove. This sort of change is a slow process.... it wouldn't happen overnight, it would just be that every time Amtrak decided it needed to expand facilities, it would expand them somewhere other than Beech Grove, and then one day....


Neither Chicago, nor LA at the current Amtrak facilities has the real estate available to move substantial functionality to Beech Grove over there. They will have to find significant additional real estate and that will likely not be anywhere near the current Chicago or LA Amtrak facilities. I suspect Beech Grove will remain where it is and continue to serve the function it does for a long long time, irrespective of what Indiana does about passenger trains.


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## Trogdor (Sep 28, 2012)

Another possibility is that Amtrak (or whoever winds up taking over operation of state-supported corridors in the future once that bit of PRIIA goes into effect) contracts out heavy maintenance and overhaul of equipment and whoever does the work finds their own facility, and perhaps even arranges transportation of the equipment to/from said facility.


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## Bus Nut (Mar 31, 2013)

Wow, hate to say this about any train, but that's kind of ridiculous:



TCRT said:


> On non-_Cardinal_ days, it's a _very_ short train if there are no deadheads - here's a



Anyhoo, way to go Ohio Indiana. I wanted to visit relatives in Chicago (on the IC line) and friends in South Indiana (Bloomington, not klansville, mkay?). Indianapolis has a lovely airport. The feds built the state some nice highways, too, and Indiana is furiously spending on upgrading state highways even when they don't need more lanes... er... :unsure:

But try using a train or bus. You have to literally take a train, ambus, or greyhound REDEYE to get from Chicago to Indy, sleep in either downstate IL, Indy (getting in at midnight, if you're lucky), _or on the damned bus_. :help: There is a student shuttle to/from Bloomington--_if_ you're traveling when the college kids are traveling. If not, no dice. (Wrong day of the week? Oopsie.) :angry:

The only functional passenger train of any sort in the state is the blast-from-the-past South Shore [interurban] Line (apologies if I'm flubbing the name) which always blows my mind when it pulls into the station because the ancient equipment makes it look like the ghost train. It still runs despite the state's best attempts to kill it dead.

IL and IN are not that different in terms of climate and geography and the types of industry/agriculture they support, yet IL always feels different, even in the rural parts, as if there's some sort of obscure connection between functioning rail infrastructure and the entire social life of a place.

After flailing around and chasing dead ends I was about to admit defeat and buy plane tickets from O'Hare to Indianapolis, which is ridiculous, but at least I could travel at a reasonable time of day. (I would have spent more time on public transit getting to the airport than in the air.) :wacko:

My Indiana friends finally observed that they'd been looking for an excuse to visit Chicago, so instead they will be driving to join us in IL. So I was all set to spend $$ in Bloomie and Indy and instead some IN residents are going to be dropping (even more as, let's be honest, museum hopping ain't cheap) $$ in Chicago. WAY TO GO, INDIANA. Hope you like the airport! It's so ... nice ... and clean ... and *uncrowded*. :mellow:


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## Brystar41 (Mar 31, 2013)

This is just sad right when we are expanding Rail service Indiana wants it gone why in the heck would they do that, Don't they care of the people using Amtrak and other services.

What is wrong with Indiana why would they want to take out Hooiser state? this is just stupid.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 1, 2013)

Brylove7 said:


> This is just sad right when we are expanding Rail service Indiana wants it gone why in the heck would they do that, Don't they care of the people using Amtrak and other services.
> What is wrong with Indiana why would they want to take out Hooiser state? this is just stupid.


Indiana is a very "red" state, its legislature dominated by rural interests. They have no interest in public transit.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2013)

Except for somehow carrying on supporting NICTD to the extent they do.


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## Brystar41 (Apr 1, 2013)

Even if its a red state I think its still stupid they are doing that don't people want better access to places like employment, family, vacations and such why elimate a mode of transport that gives access to the people, what about people who are afraid of flying and can't drive?


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## Paulus (Apr 1, 2013)

Because as it is, the Hoosier is a crap train?


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## zephyr17 (Apr 1, 2013)

Paulus said:


> Because as it is, the Hoosier is a crap train?


Well, it is a crap train, slow with no onboard services, and cruddy times at Indy. But it is a Catch-22, maybe people would ride it more if the service was improved, but no one will invest in it unless ridership improves.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 1, 2013)

jis said:


> Except for somehow carrying on supporting NICTD to the extent they do.


I think Indiana provides about $5 million a year from its Public Transportation Fund (which is distributed to all public transit agencies in the state) to the South Shore. South Shore apparently is entitled by state law to about 12 percent of the total fund. Illinois also kicks in funding, since about 16 percent of South Shore's ridership boards at the Hegewisch station on the southeast side of Chicago.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 1, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > Because as it is, the Hoosier is a crap train?
> ...


I read a story somewhere that an Indiana transportation official said one of the reasons the state was reluctant to spend any money on the Hoosier State is that it is slow, uses a roundabout route and has low ridership. He hinted that better service might prod the state into at least considering funding, but of course, this is a classic chicken or egg situation. Any improvements would require state funding and the state doesn't want to fund a lousy service, so say goodbye to the Hoosier State. Of course, if the Cardinal ever goes daily that would eliminate the need for the Hoosier State.
One of the big problems in Indiana is that good north-south routes no longer exist after Penn Central and Conrail abandoned many routes in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. The Hoosier State/Cardinal doesn't come close to matching highway traveling time.


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## Linda T (Apr 2, 2013)

What are the odds of the Hoosier State being suspended, and the Cardinal becoming an everyday train with superliner equipment ending in WAS? I saw that suggested on FB this morning and I'll be honest -- I love the viewliner equipment and would rather the Card be daily, viewliner equipment (already on order, right?), and terminate at NYP. Any thoughts?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I didn't see it. :unsure:


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## jis (Apr 2, 2013)

Cardinal won't become a daily train anytime soon due to track capacity issues in Virginia and West Virginia. Also it will remain a Viewliner train because pretty soon there will be more Viewliners available than Superliners for this train. As it is there is a significant shortage of Superlliners without trying to convert another train to Superliner, so much so that Amtrak has considered converting one of the lower capacity Superliner trains to Viewliner/single level.


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## Linda T (Apr 2, 2013)

jis said:


> Cardinal won't become a daily train anytime soon due to track capacity issues in Virginia and West Virginia. Also it will remain a Viewliner train because pretty soon there will be more Viewliners available than Superliners for this train. As it is there is a significant shortage of Superlliners without trying to covnert another train to Superliner, so much so that Amtrak has considered coverting one of the lower capacity Superliner trains to Viewliner/single level.


Wow, thank you for that information.


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## Paulus (Apr 2, 2013)

Of course, if you cut the Cardinal, you could get eight daily round trips IND-CHI.


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## jis (Apr 2, 2013)

You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?


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## Paulus (Apr 2, 2013)

jis said:


> You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?


Why would anyone fund a four day a week trip? 8 daily round trips has a chance of funding, a poorly timed semi-weekly service doesn't.


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## Blackwolf (Apr 2, 2013)

Paulus said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?
> ...


Seems to me that Indiana is _actually _getting something of a bargain, that is if you look at the current situation solely on the basis of daily service but only having to pay for four days worth at the state level. The Cardinal runs the missing three days that the Hoosier State does not.

So, right now, IND-CHI has daily Amtrak service, using the same routing, serving the same stations, using two different train names and numbers. I agree, it would be grand to have multi-day service and would probably be a success in a few years time much along the same lines as the California services. But Indiana, as a state, has a looser government and a ****-poor attitude on anything funding-wise. At least they have Zero say on the Cardinal, and I do look forward to that train going daily with full diner and additional sleeping car services by the close of this decade.


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## Linda T (Apr 2, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


That's what I was hoping for, that they would have zero say on the Cardinal.


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## Trogdor (Apr 2, 2013)

Paulus said:


> Of course, if you cut the Cardinal, you could get eight daily round trips IND-CHI.


How?


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 3, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, if you cut the Cardinal, you could get eight daily round trips IND-CHI.
> ...


Simple. Take two rakes of Cardinal, separate out eight cars, attach one locomotive to each car, and run eight one-car services. What kind of car comes for your service will be decided by a lucky draw. Someday you might get just the cafe-lounge car, someday everyone gets to ride the Viewliner sleeper. Simple.


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## jphjaxfl (Apr 3, 2013)

Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 3, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.


Unfortunately, the James Whitcomb Riley route today is a short line where occasional freights plod along at 20 mph. The whole route may not even exist. PC and Conrail just enjoyed ripping out tracks in Indiana.


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## jphjaxfl (Apr 3, 2013)

Yes, I know that the former Big Four route from Cincinnati to Kankakee,Il no longer exists. It is too bad that some sort of Railroad Authority was not set up to mothball certain Railroads instead of abandoning them. If a high speed line were ever built from Chicago to Cincinnati that route would have been the most ideal. The rail lines that the Cardinal /Hoosier State uses now were hardly the ideal lines. The former Monon Line from Northern Indiana to Crawfordsville was always a slow railroad and couldn't compare with theNYC or PRR. The Peoria and Easten from Crawfordsville to Indianapolis only carried local passenger trains up until the mid 1950s. We used to ride The Corn Belt LTD from Peoria to Indianapolis to connect to other trains. The only thing limited about that train was the speed!


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## MrFSS (Apr 3, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> Yes, I know that the former Big Four route from Cincinnati to Kankakee,Il no longer exists. It is too bad that some sort of Railroad Authority was not set up to mothball certain Railroads instead of abandoning them. If a high speed line were ever built from Chicago to Cincinnati that route would have been the most ideal. The rail lines that the Cardinal /Hoosier State uses now were hardly the ideal lines. The former Monon Line from Northern Indiana to Crawfordsville was always a slow railroad and couldn't compare with theNYC or PRR. The Peoria and Easten from Crawfordsville to Indianapolis only carried local passenger trains up until the mid 1950s. We used to ride The Corn Belt LTD from Peoria to Indianapolis to connect to other trains. The only thing limited about that train was the speed!


The PRR from Chicago to Louisville (via Indianapolis) wasn't much better in the 50's. I remember many times boarding at CUS about 10:00-11:00PM and not arriving in Louisville the next morning around 8:00AM. Long trip in a coach, but I loved every minute of it.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 3, 2013)

Corn Belt Ltd! Perfect! :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


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## Bus Nut (Apr 3, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.


Agreed. I would ride. That's a 3 hr schedule, hopefully achievable after CREATE works its magic in Northern IL. Would be nice if the train hit Bloomie, too. College students are eager train riders. It's nicer than the bus (and there isn't a lot of bus to choose from in Indiana, anyway). Or you could Ambus Bloomington from Indy if the only feasible route to Cincy bypasses it.

Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?


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## jis (Apr 4, 2013)

Bus Nut said:


> Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?


Indiana has mostly refused to participate in anything to do with passenger rail. They are not even party to the PRIIA Section 209 agreements. Left to Indiana there'd be no Regional trains in Indiana other than in the northwest corner served by NICTD.


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## zephyr17 (Apr 4, 2013)

jis said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?
> ...


And there won't be, after October.


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## afigg (Apr 5, 2013)

jis said:


> Indiana has mostly refused to participate in anything to do with passenger rail. They are not even party to the PRIIA Section 209 agreements. Left to Indiana there'd be no Regional trains in Indiana other than in the northwest corner served by NICTD.


It comes down too that Indiana is not a transit oriented state under the current political leadership. Came across this news on Streetsblog.org: Why Are State Senators Holding Up Indianapolis’s Transit Plans? The city of Indianapolis is looking to hold a referendum on an income tax levy to pay for transit, not rail transit, but better bus transit to start with. But it is encountering resistance in the state legislature. It appears to be related to the IndyConnect transit plan. I have read that Indianapolis is the largest US city that has no rail (or fixed guideway) transit of any kind.

If Indianapolis were to begin to build BRT lines, or a light rail system, add a commuter rail line, it would be a more receptive environment for supporting intercity passenger rail. The Cardinal, whether it stays 3 days a week or someday goes to daily service, provides an asset in that it maintains the passenger rail link, which can be built upon when the political situation changes in the state.

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to take the Hoosier State just so they can check it off their list, they had better do so before October 1.


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## RichardK (Apr 5, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.


I agree. Even though I am a major passenger rail fan, let's get real. Greyhound and Megabus have 16 departures daily between Chicago and Indianapolis with some fares as low as $14. Either make the Cardinal daily or have a higher frequency daily service if demand and equipment availability will support it.


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## Texan Eagle (Apr 5, 2013)

RichardK said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.
> ...


Good riddance. Running a P42 with a 2 car train, taking over 5 hours for a journey that buses do in 3 hr 15 min (Megabus schedules) just does not make sense. Either improve rail infrastructure to have competitive running times and frequency, or get rid of the white elephant and instead focus on routes where rail service actually flourishes.


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## CHamilton (Sep 5, 2013)

From NARP via Facebook:
\



> Here's an excellent thorough report on the challenge of saving#Amtrak's Hoosier State, and how doing so would cost only a drop in the bucket in terms of INDOT's budget.
> 
> Amtrak has notified the state that it will begin the discontinuance process for the train unless it reaches an agreement with INDOT within two weeks. We need to step up the pressure on INDOT and Governor Mike Pence to save the train--the only feasible starting point for future service improvement. Hoosiers: click here to take action:http://bit.ly/savehoosr



Weighing the Fate of Amtrak's Hoosier State






> Indiana stands to lose its Hoosier State Amtrak line from Indianapolis to Chicago if the state fails to identify $3 million in local funding to cover the train's operating costs by a federally imposed Oct. 1 deadline.The deadline has been on the calendar for five years, since Congress passed the Passenger Rail Investment Improvement Act of 2008, which included a provision that required states with passenger rail service lines of less than 750 miles to take financial responsibility for the routes — or lose them.
> 
> As part of the PRIIA's mandate of rail-related funding equity among the states, a multi-state working group partnered with Amtrak to devise a "single, nationwide standardized methodology for establishing and allocating the operating and capital costs among the States and Amtrak."
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Sep 17, 2013)

As Deadline Approaches, Amtrak’s Indy-Chicago Line Faces Cuts



> Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All “state-supported” Amtrak routes — those shorter than 750 miles — are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.
> 
> 
> Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, ”states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent,” said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.
> ...


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## afigg (Sep 17, 2013)

> Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.
> 
> Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent, said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.
> 
> Most states seem on track to reach an agreement with Amtrak in time, although some states, including Massachusetts and Connecticut, are still negotiating and may reach out to the Federal Railroad Administration for arbitration.


The news update in the article is that 7 out of 19 agreements have now been signed. I'm not clear on "19 agreements in 15 states" part though. I come up with 18 states that have to provide subsidies to maintain corridor services.
If Gov. Pence of IN does decline to pay the subsidy, which sounds likely, then the Hoosier State is terminated and Amtrak has to decide what to do about the Beech Grove facility. The loss of the Hoosier State would provide a strong incentive to make the Cardinal a daily train in a couple of years once the Viewliner II are delivered, by working with VA DRPT to pick up the pace on Buckingham Branch improvements and to be ready to lean on CSX at the STB for clearance for daily service if need be.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 17, 2013)

afigg said:


> > Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.
> >
> > Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent, said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.
> >
> ...


Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 17, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > > Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.
> ...


You mean restart the BL? How's that gonna happen?


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## Ryan (Sep 17, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.


It does to people that live in Southwest Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Southern Ohio and Indiana!


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## afigg (Sep 17, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.


I agree that there should be a Indianapolis to Chicago corridor service. If is not going to be HSR, a major Midwest city pair such as that should at least have trip times competitive with driving and multiple daily frequencies. But if the Governor of Indiana says no and the state legislature is not going to block him, then there is little Amtrak can do and the Hoosier State goes away. At least the Cardinal will still run and keep the route open for passenger train service. Far easier to start a corridor train later if the political situation changes and there is still an active passenger service to build on.
We will see what happens in the next week or two.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 17, 2013)

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.


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## RampWidget (Sep 18, 2013)

Ryan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.
> ...


Well-put, Ryan!


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## Ryan (Sep 18, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.


Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".


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## Eric S (Sep 18, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.
> ...


Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.

(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)


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## okguy0821 (Sep 18, 2013)

They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.


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## jebr (Sep 18, 2013)

okguy0821 said:


> They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.


Not sure what you're referring to. No, it doesn't unload right next to it, but it's still in downtown Chicago. It's a walk or bus ride across downtown, but it's a lot closer than either airport, and may be more convenient for some non-connecting passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 18, 2013)

Eric S said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


But not *useful* at all. Go ahead Amtrak, cut it. Just send cars to Beech Grove on the Cardinal.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 18, 2013)

okguy0821 said:


> They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.


That line dosen't have anything to do with the HS. That line runs to South Bend, going east, nowhere near Indianapolis.


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## Ryan (Sep 18, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


It's useful to the hundreds of people that ride it 4 times a week.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 18, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


So? Plenty of other transport is available. I'm hoping for them to cut it. It would be better to eliminate the worse players in Amtrak's system that are not important. The Cardinal and SL do bad, but they're important to their respective areas. The HS is not.


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## jebr (Sep 18, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


More Megabus passengers on the Van Hools? h34r:

It's true, though, that there are other options, and the current Hoosier State is really limited in its market.


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## CHamilton (Sep 18, 2013)

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012


> Real GDP increased in 305 of the nation’s 381 metropolitan areas in 2012, led by growth in durable-goods manufacturing, trade, and financial activities, according to new statistics released today by the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis. Real GDP in metropolitan areas increased 2.5 percent in 2012 after increasing 1.7 percent in 2011....
> 
> Durable-goods manufacturing continued to spur growth in many of the nation’s metropolitan areas in 2012. Strong contributions from this industry fueled growth in many small metropolitan areas where it constitutes a large portion of the area’s economy. This is especially true in the Great Lakes region where durable-goods manufacturing contributed 8.5 percentage points to growth in Elkhart-Goshen, IN, 8.3 percentage points to growth in Columbus, IN and 7.2 percentage points in Kokomo, IN. Elkhart-Goshen, IN and Columbus, IN were two of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in 2012, with overall real GDP growth of 11.4 percent and 9.6 percent, respectively.


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## RampWidget (Sep 20, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.
> 
> ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012


Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the _Hoosier State_ a moot point, IMO.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 20, 2013)

RampWidget said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.
> ...


I don't think the question is whether Indiana can afford it. The question is whether a four-day-a-week, 39mph train with no food service is worth $3 million per year (with the likelihood that the price goes up each year). If some neighborhood kids wanted $500 to mow my lawn, I could afford it. It would not be worth it. Indiana may look at $3 million and say that they have better places to spend that money than on that train.


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## MrFSS (Sep 20, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> > CHamilton said:
> ...


One of the major cities on the route says it will help with the funding.

*LINK*


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 20, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> > CHamilton said:
> ...


Great point. I agree. I can actually afford an Amtrak trip right now, but I won't beucase I'm trying to save money for a big overseas trip. The Hs is dealing with about the same situation.


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## RampWidget (Sep 21, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> > CHamilton said:
> ...


I see your point, but I look at it somewhat differently than the Hoosier State being simply a four-day-a-week service. I look at it as a fill-in for non-Cardinal days so that the Indy to Chgo route actually has _seven-day_-a-week-service. To me, that is a big difference. Tri-weekly service is not much better than no service, so having the Hoosier State to fill the "tag days" on which the Cardinal does not operate is of importance to passengers, IMO. Now all is needed is to find more passengers to fill it. Cafe service, even if it's just a food cart, would help.

Edit: additional info


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## CHamilton (Sep 24, 2013)

INDOT begins contract negotiations with Amtrak 





> _Editor's Note: At 1:44 p.m. Tuesday, NUVO received the following news release from the Indiana Department of Transportation:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## afigg (Sep 24, 2013)

So INDOT is starting negotiations with 1 week left before the first deadline? While the other states have been in meetings and discussions on the cost allocation rules for years and negotiations with Amtrak for how many months? Yes, better late than never, but seriously. We will find out if these negotiations are for real or for political show on the part of INDOT and Gov. Pence.


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## PaulM (Sep 24, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers.


Is this an emotional statement? It's only anecdotal, but while I was waiting for the IZ yesterday (weekday in

mid-September), I saw a long line waiting for 850.


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## Nathanael (Sep 24, 2013)

The problem with the Hoosier State is that it has been allowed to get so slow. Which is due to total disinterest in passenger rail from the Indiana state government for most of 40 years.

If the trackage were upgraded (perhaps bought by Indiana and then upgraded), as in Michigan, Illinois, Maine, and so many other states, the Hoosier State could be a highly successful and popular train. But it hasn't been. It shouldn't be a question of "Should Indiana spend $3 million a year for the current Hoosier State", it should be a question of "Is Indiana willing to support passenger rail", and if it is, the state should put in serious money and upgrade the route -- which would, of course, reduce the yearly operational subsidy needed, as well as providing a more useful passenger service.

However, it seems absoutely clear that the Indiana DOT wants to cut bait, and kill the train -- and probably lose Beech Grove in 5-10 years as a result, since Beech Grove will become completely economically untenable if anything happens to the Cardinal (which it might) -- and there's lots of good locations for a new heavy maintenance shop in Chicagoland.

It may be possible for the *cities* along the Hoosier State route to save it, but that's a long shot. I hope they manage to talk Indiana DOT out of its destructive attitude -- which is bad for the entire state -- but I'm not optimistic.



Bus Nut said:


> My Indiana friends finally observed that they'd been looking for an excuse to visit Chicago, so instead they will be driving to join us in IL. So I was all set to spend $$ in Bloomie and Indy and instead some IN residents are going to be dropping (even more as, let's be honest, museum hopping ain't cheap) $$ in Chicago. WAY TO GO, INDIANA.


This is the future of Indiana until the politics change. :-(



'Anderson' said:


> Beech Grove is no longer "as central as possible to minimize overall travel time" -- it's now located so as to maximize overall travel time.
> 
> Amtrak's shops are already having a problem with "cars not arriving as scheduled" (due to intensive use of the fleet). Accessing Beech Grove only three days a week on one of the most unreliable Amtrak trains (to Indianapolis, followed by a switcher job to Beech Grove!) can only make this problem worse! It would then generally be faster to get to shops located in *Denver*, because the Zephyr runs daily!


I hadn't thought of Denver; it would work. There isn't much of any free space for a railyard in Denver, though. There's actually still a certain amount of ex-railyard space in Chicago despite recent expansions. There's far more ex-railyard space in northwestern Indiana. 
And of course there's insane amounts of cheap rail-connected space in Detroit; Detroit might actually be the most sensible location, with lots of cheap, rail-connected land and multiple trains per day -- on a line which is largely Amtrak-controlled. If South of the Lake ever gets built, it would be a 100% Amtrak route to Detroit.


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## Ryan (Sep 24, 2013)

Not to mention an area with a bunch of skilled auto workers that could really use some job opportunities.


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## CHamilton (Sep 25, 2013)

Negotiations begin to save Amtrak’s Hoosier State service


> Indiana officials say negotiations have begun on a contract that could keep the Hoosier State train service alive.
> Amtrak officials have a slightly different take on things.
> 
> The Indiana Department of Transportation issued a news release Tuesday announcing that Gov. Mike Pence authorized the department to begin the talks last week.
> ...


----------



## afigg (Sep 25, 2013)

The interesting info in the Post-Tribune article is



> The state transportation department also asked for a cost-benefit analysis of the existing service as well as four options Amtrak outlined to improve the frequency of service and the departure times (the train currently leaves Indianapolis about 6 a.m. and arrives in Indianapolis about 11:50 p.m.
> 
> Results of that analysis will be presented Thursday at a joint study committee.
> 
> Amtrak’s statement noted that the railroad has provided INDOT information “regarding ways to improve the current Hoosier State service and the need for infrastructure improvements to realize those benefits,” and added: “We look forward to reviewing the draft report by INDOT’s consultant after it is released.”


Would be interesting to read the consultant report if it is made public. So, Amtrak is offering 4 options, which appears to include daily service and possible schedule changes. Much of the hostility to keeping the Hoosier State - on the rr forums and public comments in newspaper articles (ok, which are often hostile to anything) - has been the cost of keeping a slow 4 day a week train.

The odds are likely against it, but if the outcome of the PRIIA mandated state support is Indiana and the cities agree to not only provide funds for a daily HS but also some state transportation funds for track improvements to reduce trip times, that should be regarded as a very positive result. A daily HS on a different schedule would leave also the door open for a daily Cardinal. If Indiana pays for a 4 day a week HS, that could become an impediment to a daily Cardinal if the state were to withdraw the HS subsidy because then it is a LD train.

But we will see what the response is from the joint study committee meeting.


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## Anderson (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm wondering what the four options were. Assuming one is the current service and a second is a daily train, what would 3 and 4 be?


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## Nathanael (Sep 26, 2013)

I would expect that the four improvement options feature varying capital improvements allowing for different schedules.


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## MrFSS (Sep 27, 2013)

*HERE* is a new article suggesting two trains a day between Indianapolis and Chicago. That would be interesting.


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## Ryan (Sep 27, 2013)

> The study weighs four options for ­improving Amtrak’s service, and finances, by adding trains. It also explores keeping Amtrak at one train per day and reducing service to the federally funded line that runs three days a week.





> Amtrak’s current single-train service departs Indianapolis at 6 a.m. and leaves Chicago at 5:45 p.m. It draws about 37,000 riders a year and needs a state subsidy of about $2.9 million, the study found.
> 
> Adding a second daily train departing Indianapolis at 8 a.m. and leaving Chicago at 5:30 p.m., according to the study, would boost ridership to 88,000 and lower the subsidy to $2.8 million a year.
> 
> ...


So there are the options, which actually come out to 6. 4 with increased service, 1 with just finding the HS as is and 1 with having just the Cardinal.

Interesting that the option of providing a second train that leaves CHI at nearly the same time as the Cardinal/Hoosier State does better than one that leaves 2 hours earlier.


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## cirdan (Sep 27, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Interesting that the option of providing a second train that leaves CHI at nearly the same time as the Cardinal/Hoosier State does better than one that leaves 2 hours earlier.


It's odd isn't it?

It makes me suspect there's either a typo in that text somewhere, or a fundamental misunderstanding of what's being proposed.

If you've got two trains leaving Chicago at virtually the same time and following the same route, you might as well combine those to a single train.


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## MrFSS (Sep 27, 2013)

cirdan said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting that the option of providing a second train that leaves CHI at nearly the same time as the Cardinal/Hoosier State does better than one that leaves 2 hours earlier.
> ...


Could they mean it would leave the same time _The Cardinal_ leaves, but only on the days _The Cardinal_ doesn't run. Then the other train would be 7 days a week both ways. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.


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## CHamilton (Sep 27, 2013)

NARP has a link to the study, and this commentary.



> The rally [to save the train] came the same day as a 47-page report issued by the Indiana Department of Transportation that performed a cost-benefit analysis. The study looked at continuing the route as is, upgrading the service (with annual costs ranging from $3.8 million to $10.9 million), and discontinuing the train all together. Unfortunately, the study used a fairly narrow scope in determining the value of the line, focusing primarily on the benefits that could be assessed as a monetized value. While the study recognized other forms of benefits brought about by the service as real—including expenditure related economic impacts, economic impacts on land usage, freight improvements, quality of life, and social benefits—it concluded that continuing the train is a decision that must be made at a “policy” level, rather than an economic level.


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## NE933 (Sep 27, 2013)

What the heck does that mean? "Deciding on a policy level not an economic level"?


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## Ryan (Sep 27, 2013)

"We can pay for it, but we don't know if we want to because the other team supports it and therefore we must reflexively oppose it."


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## hessjm (Oct 2, 2013)

Here is the notice I saw posted in the Metropolitan Lounge yesterday. Rumor has it reservations for the train will be blocked after today if things are not resolved..


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## Railroad Bill (Oct 2, 2013)

hessjm said:


> Here is the notice I saw posted in the Metropolitan Lounge yesterday. Rumor has it reservations for the train will be blocked after today if things are not resolved..


Looks like it is time for Indiana to put up the money or the line shuts down in a couple of weeks.


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## Anderson (Oct 2, 2013)

Honestly, in some regards the Hoosier State is _only_ useful as a placeholder for future Cardinal slots. The state is being asked to produce $3 million for a train with $900,000 in farebox revenue, no OBS, and slow travel times. That's over 75% of the total cost, which I want to say is probably by far the worst ratio in the country.

That said, the four improvement options all look pretty interesting and potentially worthwhile.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 2, 2013)

From WLFI 10/2/13 - Amtrak continues Hoosier State line talks:



> Indiana and Amtrak are making progress hammering out a short-term agreement to keep a passenger line between Indianapolis and Chicago running until a comprehensive funding deal is reached, a spokesman for Indiana's transportation agency said Wednesday


And:



> Will Wingfield, a spokesman for the Indiana Department of Transportation, said the agency and Amtrak are continuing discussions with local communities on a short-term agreement that would serve as a stopgap measure for a few months until a long-term deal is reached on the line, which last year carried nearly 37,000 passengers.
> 
> "The negotiations are moving forward productively and positively on our side, and I feel that's the case with the other parties as well, so it's just a matter of coming to an agreement," he said.
> 
> ...


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## afigg (Oct 3, 2013)

> Will Wingfield, a spokesman for the Indiana Department of Transportation, said the agency and Amtrak are continuing discussions with local communities on a short-term agreement that would serve as a stopgap measure for a few months until a long-term deal is reached on the line, which last year carried nearly 37,000 passengers.
> 
> "The negotiations are moving forward productively and positively on our side, and I feel that's the case with the other parties as well, so it's just a matter of coming to an agreement," he said.
> 
> ...


That IN DOT is continuing negotiations on a short-term agreement while talking about a long term deal is a good sign. If IN DOT and the Governor wanted to kill the HS, they could have gotten to October 1 while many are distracted by the mess in DC and said, sorry, the HS is too expensive and we are ending negotiations.
The key is if a long-term agreement can be reached which has IN DOT and the local governments contributing even a small amount for capital improvements. It gets a foot in the door for IN to incrementally increase capital funds in future years for track upgrades for the HS. Then the politicians in Fort Wayne will eventually demand that they get funding to add a Chicago-Fort Wayne service. Even a minimum state subsidy deal establishes a precedent to build on.

Start small with low hanging fruit capital improvements and take it from there. Better than the arguments here that the HS loses a lot of money, so kill it and forget about a CHI-IND corridor service.


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## Train2104 (Oct 6, 2013)

NARP reports in its Headline that this sign has been seen in Hoosier State stations:


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## CHamilton (Oct 6, 2013)

Looks familiar, doesn't it? Think they asked Joe for permission to use his photo?


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2013)

No photo credit, that's for sure.

Definitely the same picture, too.


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## hessjm (Oct 6, 2013)

Ha! My very poor job of cropping did make their "lifting" of the photo pretty obvious didn't it


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## Ryan (Oct 6, 2013)

That's somewhat annoying. Enough so that I'd send them a pretty pointed email asking "***" and for a photo credit at least.


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## bretton88 (Oct 6, 2013)

I should note Amtrak is still accepting reservations for the Hoosier State after October 17th. So they must think negotiations are going fairly well.


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## CHamilton (Oct 8, 2013)

Amtrak upgrades would boost ridership, cost millions




> Improvements to Amtrak’s Hoosier State service between Indianapolis and Chicago would boost ridership and revenue, but there’s no scenario under which the line would pay for itself, according to an analysis commissioned by the Indiana Department of Transportation.
> 
> That doesn’t mean the upfront investment and ongoing subsidies couldn’t be justified, though, consultant CDM Smith Inc. concluded. The cost-benefit analysis will figure into INDOT’s negotiations with Amtrak over continuation of the Hoosier State line, and it will help cities served by the line decide whether they want to pitch in on upgrades....
> 
> ...


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## Anderson (Oct 8, 2013)

Those improvements are a bit expensive...but it's interesting seeing them split the charge over about 13 years. When were they hoping to finish the improvements in those plans again?

(Yes, I know it's a general project idea...it's just interesting seeing the cost accounted for over so much time)


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## jis (Oct 8, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Amtrak upgrades would boost ridership, cost millions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it takes $231.5 million capital improvement to just run two trains on a short corridor (~200 miles with two or three train sets on track at any given time) where one daily train effectively runs already, then it seems to me UP's need for a billion in capital improvement to run a daily train on a very very long corridor (~1800 miles) daily instead of thrice a week was perhaps not that much out of line?

OK, now I think I should duck while I can :help: :hi:


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 8, 2013)

Where did that number come from? Someone pull it out of a hat? :hi:


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## jis (Oct 8, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Where did that number come from? Someone pull it out of a hat? :hi:


The $231.5 million came presumably from CDM Smith Inc. who did the study report. So it must have been their hat.  :hi:

More seriously....

The Report alluded to I think is this one: http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_CostBenefitAnalysis_2013.pdf

The $231.5 million comes from the last page of appendix C: http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_AppendixC_2013.pdf


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 8, 2013)

jis said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > Where did that number come from? Someone pull it out of a hat? :hi:
> ...


Thanks! Looks like some fun 'light reading' for tomorrow morning!


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## Nathanael (Oct 9, 2013)

jis said:


> If it takes $231.5 million capital improvement to just run two trains on a short corridor (~200 miles with two or three train sets on track at any given time) where one daily train effectively runs already, then it seems to me UP's need for a billion in capital improvement to run a daily train on a very very long corridor (~1800 miles) daily instead of thrice a week was perhaps not that much out of line?
> 
> OK, now I think I should duck while I can :help: :hi:


The difference is that UP is already running fast freights on its line, meaning that the track itself has to be in fairly good condition. Nobody is running fast freights on the cobbled-together route of the Hoosier State, and the line is actually at constant risk of having segments shut down entirely. The price for the Hoosier State improvements is practically a price to rebuild the track from scratch -- if you look in the report, it's trackwork trackwork trackwork....


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## ruck (Oct 15, 2013)

The Hoosier State survives.

_Gov. Mike Pence announced the state has reached an agreement in principle with Amtrak and local communities to keep the Hoosier State passenger rail service operating between Indianapolis and Chicago._

_Once agreements are signed and executed by all parties, monthly payments will renew the existing service for one year with an option for an additional four months, according to a news release from the governor’s office._

http://www.jconline.com/article/20131015/NEWS02/310150021/State-Amtrak-reach-agreement-Hoosier-State


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## Jld (Oct 15, 2013)

ruck said:


> The Hoosier State survives.
> 
> _Gov. Mike Pence announced the state has reached an agreement in principle with Amtrak and local communities to keep the Hoosier State passenger rail service operating between Indianapolis and Chicago._
> 
> ...


The article didn't say but any word on which of the four service improvement tracts, if any, we're agreed to?


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## jis (Oct 15, 2013)

AFAIK none. The agreement is just for maintaining current service.


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## afigg (Oct 15, 2013)

jis said:


> AFAIK none. The agreement is just for maintaining current service.


yes, it looks like IN choose the minimum option of keeping the 4 days a week service running for now. We may have to wait to see if IN DOT has any longer term plans for improving or expanding HS service.


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## Anderson (Oct 15, 2013)

My understanding is that they went with the 4-day-a-week option as a short-term fix to actually work out what to go with going forward.


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## afigg (Oct 15, 2013)

Anderson said:


> My understanding is that they went with the 4-day-a-week option as a short-term fix to actually work out what to go with going forward.


Which makes sense as IN DOT did not start negotiations and commission the study on options until very late in the 5 year window. If IN does in a year provide funding for a daily HS and establishes a multi-year program of incremental track improvement projects, that will be significant. But just supporting the 4 day a week HS is a pleasant surprise from what was the expected fate of the HS even just a few months ago.


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## CHamilton (Nov 9, 2013)

Town won’t help Amtrak






> DYER – A northern Indiana town served by an Amtrak line that runs between Indianapolis and Chicago is balking at chipping in money to a state-led plan that’s kept the line running.
> 
> The Lake County town of Dyer is the sole holdout in the deal that will keep the Hoosier State passenger line operating for at least one year in response to a recent cutoff of federal funding.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 9, 2013)

Wow! Ive heard of People that are Tight but Not Being Willing to Shell Out $1.70 per Passenger is Pretty Stingy! That Town must not have heard of "To Make Money you have to Be Willing to Spend Money!" 

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish as Ben Franklin said! Why doesn't Amtrak just Quit Stop[ping there and let Indiana know that other Citizens have to make up what those Skinflints won't Kick in?


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## PRR 60 (Nov 9, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Wow! Ive heard of People that are Tight but Not Being Willing to Shell Out $1.70 per Passenger is Pretty Stingy! That Town must not have heard of "To Make Money you have to Be Willing to Spend Money!"
> 
> Penny Wise and Pound Foolish as Ben Franklin said! Why doesn't Amtrak just Quit Stop[ping there and let Indiana know that other Citizens have to make up what those Skinflints won't Kick in?


The requested $5000 subsidy is per month, and the passenger count is for the year. The actual subsidy is just over $20 per passenger.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 9, 2013)

:blush: Opps, My Bad! Still Cheap to have 14 Trains a Week Stop in your Town including the Cardinal 6 Times a Week!


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## jebr (Nov 10, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Wow! Ive heard of People that are Tight but Not Being Willing to Shell Out $1.70 per Passenger is Pretty Stingy! That Town must not have heard of "To Make Money you have to Be Willing to Spend Money!"
> 
> Penny Wise and Pound Foolish as Ben Franklin said! Why doesn't Amtrak just Quit Stop[ping there and let Indiana know that other Citizens have to make up what those Skinflints won't Kick in?


It's not really penny wise/pound foolish, nor "cheap" to have a train stop from a per-passenger perspective.

Dyer, IN has okay call times....leaves for Chicago at 8:30 AM and arrives back at 6:58 PM. But they also have much more convenient options for getting to Chicago within 10-15 miles (with Metra Electric in Chicago Heights and the South Shore line in Hammond.) If I was going to Chicago from Dyer, I'd try to get to either the South Shore or Metra Electric, if for no other reason than because if I happen to miss the call time there's another train within a couple hours. Granted, I can't get to Indianapolis or points between that way, but if they're running the Hoosier State anyways I could take Metra to Chicago and board there (or take a bus if I was going to Indianapolis.)

From a financial perspective, it's also a pretty rotten deal. The Cardinal would still stop there if the Hoosier State left, so there's only 8 frequencies per week they're getting. Assuming that each train has an equal amount of people boarding (which actually puts more passengers on the Hoosier State than there likely is, as there's more destinations on the Cardinal), 1677 passengers get on or off of the Hoosier State at Dyer yearly, which comes out to 4-5 passengers a day. That's $35.77 per person getting on or off, or the city chipping in $71.54 per round trip passenger on the Hoosier State. That's a *lot* of money per passenger, money that the city (likely rightfully so) finds could be better spent elsewhere, even from the perspective of increasing transit availability. You could likely hire a full-time bus driver for $60,000 a year, which could be put to use both in the city and offering connectivity to nearby transit options, with the fare that the passenger pays only having to cover the cost of the vehicle. Frankly, if I was on the city council for Dyer, I would've protested that subsidy as well.

While it's good to advocate for trains and make sure that they're advocated for, it's also good to make sure we're not advocating for something that to most outside observers seems irrational, because then these outliers are used as the norm for the subsidy for rail travel by the anti-rail crowd.


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## Anderson (Nov 10, 2013)

There's also the fact that they're being asked to subsidize a "C" train that doesn't even run daily, lacks food service, etc. If this was a daily Cardinal and a daily Hoosier State we were talking about, that would be one thing, but Amtrak can't even offer Dyer a consistent product at the moment. That's not entirely Amtrak's fault, but it's still an issue.


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## MikefromCrete (Nov 10, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Wow! Ive heard of People that are Tight but Not Being Willing to Shell Out $1.70 per Passenger is Pretty Stingy! That Town must not have heard of "To Make Money you have to Be Willing to Spend Money!"
> 
> Penny Wise and Pound Foolish as Ben Franklin said! Why doesn't Amtrak just Quit Stop[ping there and let Indiana know that other Citizens have to make up what those Skinflints won't Kick in?


Well, Jim, I guess Amtrak should have the city of Austin pay $20 per passenger getting on and off the Texas Eagle. I'm sure that will encourage support for more service.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 10, 2013)

I understand ya'lls Points Guys, we'll have to Agree to Disagree on this One! Perhaps Eliminating the Stop IS the Answer to this One, I'm not sure of all the Politics and Legalities Involved ,but with the Poor OTP that the Cardinal has, Perhaps This Would Help a Little with it's Time Keeping!

As to the Austin Paying for the Eagle Point, Austin (and Texas) only get back like 50 Cents on the Dollar that they pay in Taxes to the Federal and State Governments, so I'd say They Are Paying More Than Their Fair Share of the Costs for Amtrak Trains in Texas! (All 3 of them, the Eagle, the Sunset and the Heartland Flyer/ 2 of Which Don't Serve Austin!)


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## MrFSS (Jan 3, 2014)

Opening the door to competition from private operators is the route Indiana will take in finding ways to improve the Hoosier State passenger rail service between Indianapolis and Chicago.

The state announced Friday that it has hired R.L Banks & Associates to develop a request for proposals from companies interested in operating, marketing or improving services on the line to increase ridership and decrease operating expenses for taxpayers.

Indiana, Lafayette, West Lafayette, Tippecanoe County and other communities served by the line agreed in October to pick up the $2.7 million annual cost of running the four-day-a-week train after the federal government stopped funding Amtrak routes shorter than 750 miles. 

Combined with Amtrak’s three-day-a-week, long-distance Cardinal, the trainshttp://www.amtrak.com/cardinal-hoosier-state-train provide daily passenger rail service along the 196-mile corridor.[SIZE=6.5pt].[/SIZE]

*FULL STORY*


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 3, 2014)

I Wonder Why States have Departments of Transportation if they have to Hire Consultants to Do Studies and Design New Systems?? Aren;t Career Government People by Definition Experts in their Field? Oh that's Right, the Politicians get Campaign "Contributions" from the Companies that Live on Government Contracts! Never Mind!


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## Paulus (Jan 3, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> I Wonder Why States have Departments of Transportation if they have to Hire Consultants to Do Studies and Design New Systems?? Aren;t Career Government People by Definition Experts in their Field? Oh that's Right, the Politicians get Campaign "Contributions" from the Companies that Live on Government Contracts! Never Mind!


Because they frequently don't have the relevant staffing. Caltrans Division of Rail had 14 positions and I believe has been cut down to 6 positions and California isn't exactly anti-rail.


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## Ryan (Jan 3, 2014)

Perhaps they should have the relevant staffing.


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## railiner (Jan 4, 2014)

Paulus said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > I Wonder Why States have Departments of Transportation if they have to Hire Consultants to Do Studies and Design New Systems?? Aren;t Career Government People by Definition Experts in their Field? Oh that's Right, the Politicians get Campaign "Contributions" from the Companies that Live on Government Contracts! Never Mind!
> ...





RyanS said:


> Perhaps they should have the relevant staffing.


Maybe yes, maybe no.......they may have cut staff in order save money for the taxpayers, retaining only those people who's resume is most useful on an all year round basis, and looking to outside expertise to fill in gaps on a short-time basis, for things like study's.

I am certainly not knowledgeable in this area, but just wanted to throw in this possibility. If I am correct, than they are performing with taxpayer's in mind....


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