# What features are important in a sleeper



## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 10, 2021)

So what features are important to you in a sleeping car?

Or what features have you seen on any sleeper car that you find quite desirable?

A little story why or what you found during your travels that just made your trip just a bit easier.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 10, 2021)

HVAC (heat ventilation air conditioning) a control panel that is A) dark when not in use. B) is by numbers and not a knob controlled. C) actually works.


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## flitcraft (Aug 10, 2021)

Soundproofing! We had a trip once on the Coast Starlight where the bedroom next door was occupied by someone with a loud, shrill laugh. She had a hilarious time the whole trip! (I became envious of my hearing-impaired husband...)


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## TheVig (Aug 10, 2021)

A/C is important to me first and foremost.


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 10, 2021)

For me, a sleeper car must have the following:

-A decently comfortable bed/mattress (this means different things to different people, but there are some that can be ruled out)

-Good climate control (not just decent). 

-good bathroom/shower service (no brainer)

-good bedding. Whatever may lack in the mattress to some, could be improved by good bedding.

-a room that’s quiet enough to sleep in. 

There are other aspects of the train and tracks (ride quality, where the sleeper is in the consist, the attendant, food offerings) that I think can’t be overlooked when evaluating a good sleeper journey. That said, I know the OP is just talking about the car itself.

The sleeper service on the NEC has ironed out some of the kinks and I think provides a nice service, especially with the new bedding, which i have to say, is really comfortable.

When COVID finally dies down, I plan to take the Caledonian Sleeper. I’ve had my eye on that train forever and really want to take it (despite some of the negative reviews of the newer rolling stock).


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## me_little_me (Aug 10, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> For me, a sleeper car must have the following:
> 
> -A decently comfortable bed/mattress (this means different things to different people, but there are some that can be ruled out)
> 
> ...



EVERYTHING in working order including bathrooms, showers, doors, tables, chairs*, P.A. system, and dividers, not just HVAC.
Rooms that don't rattle like a baby's toy.
Clean windows.
Good service. Flexible staff.
Clean restrooms.
Clean showers
Available towels in the shower 24x7
Morning coffee
* In case you wondered why I mentioned chairs, on one Southwest Chief, when we got in our bedroom in L.A., I could not get the chair to rotate and open. It took me only a moment to realize that it had been put in backwards so that it rotated while closed from facing the window to facing the door. Neither the SCA nor conductor understood what was wrong even when I explained it while they looked at it. "Luckily", the restrooms in the car did not work and while we sat in L.A. and a maintenance team came, I went outside and asked the supervisor to look at my room. He couldn't figure it out. Then when one of the workers was waiting for parts, I asked him to check it out. He took one look and rolled his eyes. He must have wondered how a shop person could have been so stupid. An hour later, we were told to move to the lounge with our baggage so they could remove and replace the car. So my chair went with it - it's probably still facing the wall.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 10, 2021)

All of the above plus a Window and more Headroom for the Top Bunk like the Viewliners have. 

Plus go bCk to having the Meals in the Diner a LA carte which has historically been the case on Trains until the 90s!

And more affordable Rooms, iincluding an in between Coach and Sleeper option like the Old Slumber Coaches!


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## Qapla (Aug 10, 2021)

If I could afford a sleeper - here are some of the things that I would want:

In the Room:

Windows large and clean enough to see the view AND take good pictures
HVAC controls that are easy to use and that work
Power outlets and USB charging ports in convenient locations and enough of them
Slightly larger roomette - they really are a bit too small
Chairs that truly recline
Comfortable bed
Door lockable from inside and outside
In the Car:

Clean restrooms and showers that work
24 Hour access beverage area that has coffee, hot water for tea and hot cocoa as well as ice and canned soda
Sufficient storage space for everyone's luggage
Helpful and pleasant attendants
Wide enough access door to get on and off easily and wider hallways
Good WiFi


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## Mailliw (Aug 10, 2021)

Obviously the most important thing is a decent bed that an adult can comfortably get a good night's sleep in. Beyond that outlets & USB ports should be plentiful, there should be a discount pod sleeper option, ensuite toilets should be enclosed, doors should be lockable from the outside, decent luggage storage, and there should be a drawing room type option where 2 adults can sleep in lower berths. I think it would be best to separate the pod sleepers and sleeping compartments into separate cars. Basically Amtrak should look to what European operators (Nightjet in particular) and adapt it to North American needs.


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 10, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Obviously the most important thing is a decent bed that an adult can comfortably get a good night's sleep in. Beyond that outlets & USB ports should be plentiful, there should be a discount pod sleeper option, ensuite toilets should be enclosed, doors should be lockable from the outside, decent luggage storage, and there should be a drawing room type option where 2 adults can sleep in lower berths. I think it would be best to separate the pod sleepers and sleeping compartments into separate cars. Basically Amtrak should look to what European operators (Nightjet in particular) and adapt it to North American needs.



After reading some replies, I figured this went without saying, but maybe Amtrak isn’t always consistent about it:
Cleanliness should be a given. Some of the sleepers I have ridden in recently have not been clean...
To me, this is unacceptable and needs to be addressed. From crumbs in the floor to stains leftover, Amtrak customers shouldn’t have any patience for this. They need to up their game.


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## Mailliw (Aug 11, 2021)

Of course cleanliness is a given, but that's a staffing & training issue; ordering new sleeping cars won't solve that. It would be like me deciding to move because my apartment is dirty.


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 11, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Of course cleanliness is a given, but that's a staffing & training issue; ordering new sleeping cars won't solve that. It would be like me deciding to move because my apartment is dirty.


I guess I was referring to the overall experience rather than just the car itself, despite the OP.

Amtrak’s fleet has aged to the point where ordering new sleeper cars would help with cleanliness (some of them are just THAT dirty, unless they’re planning to include a deep clean with their refresh that would include putting in new carpeting, paneling, and tables.

sometimes, when apartment hunting, a unit is so dirty that you’d rather not rent it in the first place, even if the landlord cleans it.


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## Cal (Aug 11, 2021)

One that I personally am OK without, but I know many want is room doors that you can lock from the outside! 

My personal list mirrors everyone elses, I Can't really think of anything else. Maybe ensuring food items are not under stocked to ensure everything is in supply for the whole trip.


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## jiml (Aug 11, 2021)

Cal said:


> One that I personally am OK without, but I know many want is room doors that you can lock from the outside!


Most Euro sleepers (and VIA's Renaissance cars) have that feature, however I wouldn't be surprised if the majority North American design is safety-related, opening in an emergency, etc. It seems like something that could have always been there if wanted.


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## cirdan (Aug 11, 2021)

Things I would like to see in the next generation of sleepers:

- doors lockable from outside (using QR code or similar)
- air conditioning that can be controlled and switched off and doesn't blow directly in my face
- en-suite mini-bathroom 
- USB outlets
- WiFi that actually works and does so all the time


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## Cal (Aug 11, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Things I would like to see in the next generation of sleepers:
> 
> - doors lockable from outside (using QR code or similar)
> - air conditioning that can be controlled and switched off and doesn't blow directly in my face
> ...


Instead of USB outlets, I'd rather just get at least two plugs!


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## caravanman (Aug 11, 2021)

Room mates that don't snore. (4 or 6 mixed sex berths in European sleepers!) Don't worry, private rooms are also available...


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## PVD (Aug 11, 2021)

Cal said:


> Instead of USB outlets, I'd rather just get at least two plugs!


Duplex receptacles that include USB ports for power are now readily available, and recently, they have become available on GFCI receptacles. ( if the receptacles are on the same circuit, if the GFCI the first in line it can protect the others in the chain when properly wired.)


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## PVD (Aug 11, 2021)

Legrand/Pass&Seymour a reputable mfr...


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 11, 2021)

Many interesting posts and many that I support.

For me, a comfortable bed with linens that are of decent quality and a blanket that is more substantial than the thin blue ones that I have experienced. Actual working controls for HVAC temperatures and the audio system would be appreciated. Velco that is not worn out or difficult to use on the curtains would also be appreciated. Window curtains that easily slide to cover the windows would be helpful. 

And, of course, a return to the long ago of "First Class Service". Juice or Coffee delivered with one's wake-up call; a morning newspaper; proper dining in the Dining Car with Chef prepared meals; an amenity kit available on boarding; and--how about an extra hanger--particularly when one's trip starts during the Winter and one has an outer coat, shirt/slacks. and a sweater.


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## Cal (Aug 11, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> Many interesting posts and many that I support.
> 
> For me, a comfortable bed with linens that are of decent quality and a blanket that is more substantial than the thin blue ones that I have experienced. Actual working controls for HVAC temperatures and the audio system would be appreciated. Velco that is not worn out or difficult to use on the curtains would also be appreciated. Window curtains that easily slide to cover the windows would be helpful.
> 
> And, of course, a return to the long ago of "First Class Service". Juice or Coffee delivered with one's wake-up call; a morning newspaper; proper dining in the Dining Car with Chef prepared meals; an amenity kit available on boarding; and--how about an extra hanger--particularly when one's trip starts during the Winter and one has an outer coat, shirt/slacks. and a sweater.


Yes yes and yes! Although I can go without the morning newspaper.


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## PVD (Aug 11, 2021)

Doubt you'll ever see paper newspapers again, they are much less popular than they used to be, and create quite a bit of trash, and dirt from the ink.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2021)

Cal said:


> Yes yes and yes! Although I can go without the morning newspaper.


Anyone over 40 will probably disagree with you!

I used to Love getting the Paper delivered by the SCA and would read it while having a cup of coffee and some juice before going to the Diner for Breakfast!


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## Qapla (Aug 11, 2021)

I should mention that the reason my list did not include any of the dining car and/or observation car(s) was the OP asked about the sleeping "car" not the sleeping "experience"

If we are going to include the entire experience, meals and all, YES, I would want a full return to chef-cooked meals


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## west point (Aug 11, 2021)

Any new Superliner additions upper berth has a window like V sleepers.


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## Mailliw (Aug 12, 2021)

How about blackout shades instead of curtains? My dream sleeping accommodations would able to be as dark as a coal mine even at high noon.


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## Exvalley (Aug 12, 2021)

Lots of great ideas here. 

In addition to what has already been said, what about media streaming to personal devices like the airlines have?


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## cocojacoby (Aug 12, 2021)

I do want to give kudos to Amtrak for their basic Viewliner architecture. I think it is a very successful design as is:

Lots of big windows everywhere.
Decent storage.
Two reclining window seats with folding table.
Decent size beds.

The many details have been discussed above and the Viewliner II has made a few improvements like the water pressure and number and placement of outlets. I do think one thing that really needs to be done is the addition of a door lock.

Someone above mentioned that the roomettes should be a bit larger. That would be great but I think the lacking is in the width which would be impossible to extend. My wife and I have taken the Viewliner roomette many times and it is just too tight for two people. I thought that when they removed the toilet it would open up the floorspace. Remove the toilet and add fold down steps and remove the toilet paper cabinet opposite. That is why the room was difficult for us since two people can't stand up at the same time and the contortion moves necessary and tripping around the room was getting bothersome. Open up the floor area as much as possible and the room will seem a little bigger and just a bit more comfortable.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 12, 2021)

There actually is one way to make a roomette wider. Replace the aisle wall with a heavy curtain like in the old Sections. Only got to ride like this once on the Atlantic before it was discontinued. The curtain gave you enough flexibility so that you could stand in the aisle when you dressed/undressed while maintaining your privacy. The beds were actually wider than today's roomette so two people could use them. The Section could hold up to four with the lower bed costing more than the upper. You could buy the entire section for yourself if you wanted to. Don't know how well this would be accepted nowadays.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 12, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> There actually is one way to make a roomette wider. Replace the aisle wall with a heavy curtain like in the old Sections. Only got to ride like this once on the Atlantic before it was discontinued. The curtain gave you enough flexibility so that you could stand in the aisle when you dressed/undressed while maintaining your privacy. The beds were actually wider than today's roomette so two people could use them. The Section could hold up to four with the lower bed costing more than the upper. You could buy the entire section for yourself if you wanted to. Don't know how well this would be accepted nowadays.
> 
> View attachment 23921


They still have them on the Canadian. Most comfortable bed I've ever slept in on a Train!


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## joelkfla (Aug 12, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> There actually is one way to make a roomette wider. Replace the aisle wall with a heavy curtain like in the old Sections. Only got to ride like this once on the Atlantic before it was discontinued. The curtain gave you enough flexibility so that you could stand in the aisle when you dressed/undressed while maintaining your privacy. The beds were actually wider than today's roomette so two people could use them. The Section could hold up to four with the lower bed costing more than the upper. You could buy the entire section for yourself if you wanted to. Don't know how well this would be accepted nowadays.
> 
> View attachment 23921


Then you'd have an open section, not a private room.


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## jpakala (Aug 12, 2021)

Full-height ceilings as in Viewliners. Standard single beds rather than narrow; Pullman roomettes (always for one person) had them, first with a zippered curtain outside the door so you could stand in the doorway to raise the bed into the wall when using the toilet, later with a narrower section of the bed toward its far end so that it accommodated that without needing to be raised. More space than mere inches between the lower berth and the wall with sink in bedrooms. Solid construction like Pullman (in a Superliner upper berth I had a squeaky bed and the ceiling was so close I could reach up and push it to halt the squeak, but not while sleeping). Real chairs in bedrooms. I suppose the little place (accessible from the aisle as well as your room) to put shoes for shining during the night (by the Pullman porter) are forever gone.


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## Maglev (Aug 12, 2021)

For me, the width of the bed is very important. I like that the lower berth in a Bedroom (at 3' 4" wide) is big enough for me to at least visit my wife. But I think that even the lower berth in an open section, at 3' 7" wide, is not big enough for me to comfortably sleep with my wife.

I have selected a Family Bedroom for my next trip, which will be me alone (Bedrooms were too expensive at $1,500 each way; Family Bedroom was $800 and Roomettes were $600). We have a king bed at home, and I am accustomed to spreading out when I sleep. I find that in a Roomette (with a mattress width of 2' 4"), part of me is always against the wall.

I dream of someday going with my wife in Prestige Class across Canada, which I think has a bed as wide as a queen bed (60" wide).


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## Qapla (Aug 12, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> a morning newspaper





Cal said:


> Although I can go without the morning newspaper





Bob Dylan said:


> Anyone over 40 will probably disagree with you!



For the record .. I am over 40 by many years - and I already do without a newspaper and would not need/want one on the train either.

My wife recently quit her job working for a newspaper. She worked there for 17+ years and has experienced the decline of the newspaper industry first-hand.





cocojacoby said:


> Someone above mentioned that the roomettes should be a bit larger. That would be great but I think the lacking is in the width which would be impossible to extend.



If the aisle only ran down one side switching sides halfway down you could make the rooms and the hallway wider. Too much emphasis is put on squeezing out maximum dollar of revenue per square inch of the car to give real value for the price charged ... it's just that people have gotten used to the cramped roomettes so they think it is tolerable.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 12, 2021)

Qapla said:


> If the aisle only ran down one side switching sides halfway down you could make the rooms and the hallway wider. Too much emphasis is put on squeezing out maximum dollar of revenue per square inch of the car to give real value for the price charged ... it's just that people have gotten used to the cramped roomettes so they think it is tolerable.



Now you're talking a bedroom taking up the space of two roomettes and costing twice as much.


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## Mailliw (Aug 12, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Then you'd have an open section, not a private room.


Open sections could be a viable mid-tier option; they're basically the North American equivalent of couchettes. A modern version could have amenities like outlets and a window for the upper berth. I think you could fit 32-36 berths in while still leaving space for an ADA bedroom.


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## Cal (Aug 12, 2021)

I think the roomettes are a good use of space, and I think, while they are cozy, they are acceptable.


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## joelkfla (Aug 12, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Open sections could be a viable mid-tier option; they're basically the North American equivalent of couchettes. A modern version could have amenities like outlets and a window for the upper berth. I think you could fit 32-36 berths in while still leaving space for an ADA bedroom.


But that's a whole different discussion, which has also been had with the yea and nay camps set firm in their opinions -- like the roomette with/without toilet question.


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## Qapla (Aug 12, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Now you're talking a bedroom taking up the space of two roomettes and costing twice as much.



That need not be the case. There is more to offering a good sleeping car experience than maxing out the number of passengers that can fit in the limited space ... after all, the question in the OP was 


Just-Thinking-51 said:


> what features *are important to you* in a sleeping car?


so I see no reason I can't express my opinion even if it doesn't maximize profit per square inch.

Think about it this way (bear with me while I get there), in a plane all the meals are served from a very small galley and delivered to the seats. There is no dining room or self-serve.

On a train many who take a LD train mention how they like to ride in the observation car or sit in the dining room. Well, these cars are NOT revenue producing cars ... why have them on the train? It would be entirely possible to design/build a car that could be placed between the sleepers and coach that could serve sleeper meals that are delivered to the sleepers and serve "café" food to the coach ... since it could actually be done by only using half the car, instead of putting in non-revenue producing tables for people to eat at, let the sleeper passengers eat in their room and let the coach passengers eat at their seats and build half of the galley car with coach seats ... and while we're at it, why not make the coach seats narrow enough to add a middle seat on each side - like airlines do.

This way, you are gaining square-inch revenue from the "wasted space" taken up by the lounge/observation/ cars that do not have revenue producing seats in them and remove any cars that do not directly produce revenue in the way of seats. If you want the baggage car(s), charge for checked baggage like the airlines do - that way, even the baggage car is revenue producing.

OR

Give people more space, better service, clean trains, efficient and gracious employees - and quit jacking the prices ... Amtrak is Gov't owned and should be operated like a Gov't service, like the Interstate Highway system ... no one expects for the highways to make a profit. That doesn't mean Amtrak should offer free rides, but they should be affordable like car tags are - think about it, if we all had to pay a "profit" rate for our tags, way less people would drive cars because tags would cost too much.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 12, 2021)

Qapla said:


> If the aisle only ran down one side switching sides halfway down you could make the rooms and the hallway wider. Too much emphasis is put on squeezing out maximum dollar of revenue per square inch of the car to give real value for the price charged ... it's just that people have gotten used to the cramped roomettes so they think it is tolerable.


Have you ever been in a sleeper car?


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## Qapla (Aug 12, 2021)

Yes, I have


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Aug 12, 2021)

How about affordability?


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## jiml (Aug 12, 2021)

Two comments:

First, newspapers have considerable value when you're in the middle of nowhere on a Western route with no cell service to read online.

Secondly, my wish is simply for two beds on the same level within the space, such as a VIA drawing room/large bedroom for 2 affords. Currently the best Amtrak alternative for a senior couple is two roomettes across the hall.


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## Maglev (Aug 12, 2021)

Qapla said:


> If the aisle only ran down one side switching sides halfway down you could make the rooms and the hallway wider.



If the berths were oriented perpendicular to the direction of travel, the Roomettes could be wider (or conceivably narrower) than they are now and still achieve a similar density to what we have now.



jiml said:


> Secondly, my wish is simply for two beds on the same level within the space, such as a VIA drawing room/large bedroom for 2 affords. Currently the best Amtrak alternative for a senior couple is two roomettes across the hall.



The best alternative on Amtrak is a Bedroom Suite, which is preferable to a drawing room because the lower berths are wider and you get two great windows in addition to two bathrooms.


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## jiml (Aug 12, 2021)

Maglev said:


> The best alternative on Amtrak is a Bedroom Suite, which is preferable to a drawing room because the lower berths are wider and you get two great windows in addition to two bathrooms.


If cost is no object.


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## pennyk (Aug 12, 2021)

private toilet; comfortable bed (I agree that the beds on the Canadian are the best I have experienced on a train); reasonably quiet room


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## John Santos (Aug 12, 2021)

Qapla said:


> If I could afford a sleeper - here are some of the things that I would want:
> 
> In the Room:
> 
> ...



*Roomette size and wider hallways:* Slightly larger roomette and wider hallways are completely incompatible.
Roomettes could be lengthened slightly by reducing the number of them, but I think that would be a bad idea. They could not be made wider.

*Windows:* The windows are plenty large horizontally and the double-windows (vertically) in Viewliners work fine. There is significantly less height in a Superliner and adding a second row of windows on each floor for the upper bunks or extending the windows vertically would be a major structural change, at least on the lower level. The windows on the upper level of the Superliner lounges goes all the way almost to the middle of the roof, so it should be possible to extend the windows on the SL upper level 10 to 20 inches (right where the roof starts to curve) which might be enough for the upper beds on the upper level. Can't go past that without introducing serious problems with the window curtains, which are essential in a sleeper. The lower level, not so much. A complete redesign using modern materials, like carbon composites or titanium, might be strong enough to pass the safety requirements while providing bigger windows and less space wasted for structure, but would be incredibly expensive.

*Baggage space:* Including a baggage car in every LD train, with baggage service at all stations, accessible to the on-board services staff (so passengers could request access to their luggage in mid-trip) would just be a matter of hiring enough people; no physical changes would be needed to the cars. But that would be expensive. I don't think they can allow passengers to access the baggage cars for safety and liability reasons, but maybe they could partition off the last 10 feet and put baggage shelves there, like the storage shelves on the lower level of the Superliners, so passengers could deal with their own non-checked baggage.

*WiFi: *I think if all goes well, SpaceX should have mobile high-bandwidth Internet available, at a reasonable cost, with a built-in WiFi or any cheap WiFi base station should work fine, for a few hundred dollars per month per unit. I think the market is cruise ships and maybe airplanes, but there is no reason a base station that works on either wouldn't work fine on a train. The biggest cost would be installation, not the hardware costs or the monthly fees. (Stationary base stations are already available and I have some friends who have them. The work great when there is a satellite in view, but drop out occasionally when there are none. Once SpaceX gets sufficient satellites in orbit, that problem will go away.) There are other providers (OneWeb, Bezos/Amazon, etc.), but they aren't as far along. Anyway, decent WiFi will be a total no-brainer in a few years, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I think the other items in your list are practical and good ideas.


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## Mailliw (Aug 13, 2021)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> How about affordability?


Affordability is extremely important and the only realistic way to accomplish that is with a design that maximizes the number of revenue berths. Hence open sections, couchettes, Slumbercoaches, etc.


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## Qapla (Aug 13, 2021)

John Santos said:


> I think the other items in your list are practical and good ideas.



The OP asked "what features are important to you in a sleeping car?" - He never said they had to be things that did not currently exist. I never said they needed to make the windows in a viewliner larger, I just said large windows were important to me ... I actually like the windows in the viewliner, I just wish they were much, much cleaner all the time.

As for some of the other things on my list, these are things "I" would like, I never said they should or could be done, especially with today's attitude of passenger rail in the US by those in charge.

The things on my list are no more or less unreasonable that the items on some of the other lists .... after all, in keeping with the OP - they are all "wants"

Since I don't drink coffee or alcohol (by choice not religious obligation) I could say those that want 24 hour access to coffee or free drinks with each meal are unreasonable ... but, if that is what some "want" it is fine with me for them to include it as an answer to the OP question


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## west point (Aug 13, 2021)

IMO -- There is not enough sleeper cars to meet all sleeper demand at this moment in time. Amtrak is not using all its equipment available ( V-2s on single level trains ). When the demand for sleeper space is fully met then any new sleepers might be modify from current configurations. 
Amtrak has stated it only wants one configuration for V- sleepers. These proposals are going nowhere as it means more spare parts for these one offs. these proposals IMO are not going to happen for at least 10 years. It is time for us to get behind more sleepers in the present configurations. Siemens just got another order for more European sleepers for Night Jet. configurations same for all 33 =7 car sets.

But I'll say nothing is impossible..


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2021)

Basic comfort... or lack thereof...

with recollections of discomfort caused by excessive overheating in a small area with little ventilation... 

with recollections of a a fire alarm right outside my door that kept 'chirping' due to battery problem... and I was told it was a federal regulation that if I would remove that dysfunctional battery to stop the chirping... I could face federal charges!

with recollections of excessively loud partying neighbors... 'young one's' - two partying drinking couples who stuffed themselves into the roomette next to me.

with recollections of the techie 'beeps and squeaks' of game playing neighbors - the kind of noise that is stressful.

with recollections of grumbling attendants who provide no service but complain a lot.


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## Dustyroad (Aug 13, 2021)

A deeper water bottle holder and a padded closet. I totally agree with the outside door lock. Make it a 4 didgit key pad.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 13, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> A deeper water bottle holder and a padded closet. I totally agree with the outside door lock. Make it a 4 didgit key pad.


I do believe the Viewliner II has deeper cup holders. A closet takes up a lot of room and hanging your cloths on the wall works well. I did leave my jacket in a bedroom closet once so I personally like the "open closet" design. Yes to the door lock.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 13, 2021)

Maglev said:


> If the berths were oriented perpendicular to the direction of travel, the Roomettes could be wider (or conceivably narrower) than they are now and still achieve a similar density to what we have now.



NO!

As I mentioned above, I like the Amtrak Viewliner design. The base room orientation with longitudinal beds, gives you the ability to have large multiple windows all around which makes the rooms brighter and less claustrophobic. The European design, where the beds are all perpendicular, gives you a long claustrophobic narrow space with one tiny window at one end. Two people can't even look out the window together. I don't want to look at a wall for my journey. Amtrak did the right thing here.

USA trains are a lot more about the scenery and enjoying the travel. Most European style sleeper trains are designed for shorter overnight trips that travel mostly in darkness perhaps, but if I was going to take a train through Europe, I would definitely prefer a Viewliner style sleeper.


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## Lana J C (Aug 13, 2021)

Cleanliness is #1, and a good car attendant. These are always the most important to me


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 13, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> NO!



Hah



cocojacoby said:


> USA trains are a lot more about the scenery and enjoying the travel. Most European style sleeper trains are designed for shorter overnight trips that travel mostly in darkness perhaps, but if I was going to take a train through Europe, I would definitely prefer a Viewliner style sleeper.



I don’t think it’s so cut and dry in terms of room orientation.

A lot of European sleepers are oriented this way, and still manage to have decent window viewing (Italian and British trains comes to mind), and enjoyment for passengers.

A lot of east coast Amtrak trains are less about the scenery than west coast trains. Silver Service, NE Regional, and LSL don’t exactly have scenic routes (especially compared with out west); I know sometimes it’s enjoyable, but those trains are less of land cruises than western routes. Amtrak could easily get away with Euro style utility sleepers on those routes.

Night Owl isn’t scenic at all. It’s dark the whole time....


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## Maglev (Aug 13, 2021)

With the perpendicular orientation, having one walkway between two stacks of bunks is another way to increase density. But as @cocojacoby says, I am not necessarily in favor of this for all trains. I like to look out my window from the bed!


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2021)

Maglev said:


> With the perpendicular orientation, having one walkway between two stacks of bunks is another way to increase density. But as @cocojacoby says, I am not necessarily in favor of this for all trains. I like to look out my window from the bed!


Exactly what the rail enthusiast... including myself... enjoys! Nothing is better than propping up at midnight to see the surreal views of a station alive with action... then the train begins to slide forward... platform lights left behind... and slumbering once again!


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

Qapla said:


> Amtrak is Gov't owned and should be operated like a Gov't service, like the Interstate Highway system



Amtrak isn't government owned, it's a private corporation still technically owned by those who hold the stock given to legacy carriers.

Amtrak is essentially controlled and funded by its Federal and State government partners.

The reason this is important is that the will to do these things, to create "shareholder value" just isn't there like it is in a normal service entity.

That the train always stops in Ottumwa, IA as a point of pride for Iowa's 2nd district congressperson is actually more important for Amtrak than clean roomettes.

Throughout the world, passenger rail is only profitable when it's the fastest, most convenient or an epic/luxury experience.

There's enough edge markets to keep the existing services full even as the old cars start to age themselves out of service.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

How about a screen similar to what's available on aircraft? 

When idle, it just sits there to let you know where you are in the journey, point out highlights of the trip, let you know of delays, etc.

How about one place to allow you to set the desired temperature of your room, let you know what announcements you want to hear, let you *order* drinks/meals from your SCA, let you set your reservation time, etc.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> How about a screen similar to what's available on aircraft?
> 
> When idle, it just sits there to let you know where you are in the journey, point out highlights of the trip, let you know of delays, etc.
> 
> How about one place to allow you to set the desired temperature of your room, let you know what announcements you want to hear, let you *order* drinks/meals from your SCA, let you set your reservation time, etc.


Wouldn't that be nice! Unfortunately I have found that Superliner temperature controls just don't work and the heating cooling systems are antiquated and faltering. I don't think that the 'refresh' program will replace those systems [but wouldn't that be nice!]

It seems that newly approved funding is going to the very basics such as restoration of real food, basic furnishings, etc. So while the TE goes without the basic SSL and real food it is hard to imagine a tech miracle such as control screens in each room and at each seat being funded at this time. With European rail being so far ahead of us... they don't have these touch screens either.

But not a bad idea for the Superliner replacement in a few years.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 13, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> How about a screen similar to what's available on aircraft?



Wait, that's it. You know the Disney cruise ships have fake "Magical Portholes" in their interior cabins that are really LED screens that show live cams of the outside view. How about we do that in the rooms so we can get a 360 degree view of the surroundings? Pseudo cab rides anyone?


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## sttom (Aug 13, 2021)

For me it depends on why I'm riding. If I'm riding for transportation, I'd be fine with a section just so I can lay down. Capacity is also a big one. Amtrak needs more trains running so the prices don't get outrageous. As for quality, I've heard people complain about the quality of the bed and the lack of outlets. But since a sleeper is unaffordable for me, I don't have a point of reference.


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## Trogdor (Aug 13, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Amtrak isn't government owned



Page 9 of this document would like to disagree:



> The United States government (the Federal Government) through the Secretary of the United States Department of Transportation (the DOT) owns all issued and outstanding preferred stock.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Wouldn't that be nice! Unfortunately I have found that Superliner temperature controls just don't work and the heating cooling systems are antiquated and faltering.



They don't really work for anything but heating.


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## Dustyroad (Aug 13, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I do believe the Viewliner II has deeper cup holders. A closet takes up a lot of room and hanging your cloths on the wall works well. I did leave my jacket in a bedroom closet once so I personally like the "open closet" design. Yes to the door lock.


The last LD trip I took had the shallow water bottle holders with longer bumpy distances. I wonder if they are deeper now? And I kept hearing a rattling noise until I figured out it was the hangers in the closet. It was a easy fix by taking them out. Is the open closet design on the long distance trains now?
Yes you are right about a bigger closet taking up more space. But the locks out side the door should have been in the plans for the new features in my opinion. Hopefully some day it will happen.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Wouldn't that be nice! Unfortunately I have found that Superliner temperature controls just don't work and the heating cooling systems are antiquated and faltering.



Assuming we're stuck with the Superliners for a while, what can be done is adding a bit of extra control equipment in each room. Lever controls on the vents that lead to each room, as well as on the heating elements combined with temperature sensors in each room could work until new cars go into service.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> Page 9 of this document would like to disagree:



This class of Preferred Stock does not confer ownership rights. Generally, only Common Stock confers ownership rights. Preferred Stock is generally an instrument used, as in this case, to provide a priority to or a guarantee of dividends. This preferred stock is convertible at the option of the holders, so the government could come in and "own" Amtrak whenever they wish.

See Page 50 of the FY 20 Management Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations and Consolidated Financial Statements with Report of Independent Auditors, a section of which I quote here:

"The Amtrak Reform and Accountability Act of 1997 (the Act) resulted in significant modifications to Amtrak’s capital structure. The Act abolished the voting rights and the liquidation preference of the preferred stockholder and abolished the requirement that additional preferred stock be issued by Amtrak in exchange for federal grants received"

The common stock with the voting rights is still largely held by the original roads or their successors.

Combined with the fact that Amtrak runs at a huge deficit and that, by law, the Federal Government is not responsible for Amtrak obligations creates a unique arrangement by which nobody really "owns" Amtrak in any conventional sense nor do its customers have any effective control over Amtrak.

It's really a business dictated to but not owned by the governments that fund it.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Wait, that's it. You know the Disney cruise ships have fake "Magical Portholes" in their interior cabins that are really LED screens that show live cams of the outside view. How about we do that in the rooms so we can get a 360 degree view of the surroundings? Pseudo cab rides anyone?



This technology exists. The interior windows could be equipped with this kind of interactive screen, providing the ability for 360 views, programmable wake up lighting and the added benefit of a true "blackout" and privacy screen in lieu of a curtain.

The exterior windows could be fitted with just the blackout tech to make the room truly, truly dark for sleep.


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## Mailliw (Aug 13, 2021)

west point said:


> ...Siemens just got another order for more European sleepers for Night Jet. configurations same for all 33 =7 car sets.
> 
> But I'll say nothing is impossible..


The new Nightjet cars don't all have the same configuration; each trainset will have 2 sleeping cars, 3 couchette cars, 1 coach car, and one multifunction car (luggage hold, accessible compartment, & coach seating). If/when Amtrak orders new sleeping cars it seems perfectly reasonable to have basic and "deluxe" configurations like they did with the Superliners IIs. The overnight Northeast Regionals are an ideal route for sleeping pod type or neo-Slumbercoach accommodation.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Wait, that's it. You know the Disney cruise ships have fake "Magical Portholes" in their interior cabins that are really LED screens that show live cams of the outside view. How about we do that in the rooms so we can get a 360 degree view of the surroundings? Pseudo cab rides anyone?


Great idea but needs a lot of $$$ cents!


sttom said:


> For me it depends on why I'm riding. If I'm riding for transportation, I'd be fine with a section just so I can lay down. Capacity is also a big one. Amtrak needs more trains running so the prices don't get outrageous. As for quality, I've heard people complain about the quality of the bed and the lack of outlets. But since a sleeper is unaffordable for me, I don't have a point of reference.


This makes sense!


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## DCAKen (Aug 13, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Can't go past that without introducing serious problems with the window curtains, which are essential in a sleeper.



A solution to curved windows would be to use window shades instead of curtains. This would also provide blackout capability.


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## Trogdor (Aug 13, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> This class of Preferred Stock does not confer ownership rights. Generally, only Common Stock confers ownership rights. Preferred Stock is generally an instrument used, as in this case, to provide a priority to or a guarantee of dividends. This preferred stock is convertible at the option of the holders, so the government could come in and "own" Amtrak whenever they wish.
> 
> See Page 50 of the FY 20 Management Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations and Consolidated Financial Statements with Report of Independent Auditors, a section of which I quote here:
> 
> ...



I’m curious: where do you get the idea that preferred stock confers no ownership?


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## jis (Aug 13, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> I’m curious: where do you get the idea that preferred stock confers no ownership?


Does it even really matter in case of Amtrak, except for the basis of a 20 page pointless to and fro on AU? Afterall neither the common stock holders nor the preferred stock holders really control anything anyway. The control structure is now defined quite independent of that, and none of those get to vote to select the Board of Directors. So who gives a fork?


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2021)

jis said:


> Does it even really matter in case of Amtrak, except for the basis of a 20 page pointless to and fro on AU? Afterall neither the common stock holders nor the preferred stock holders really control anything anyway. The control structure is now defined quite independent of that, and none of those get to vote to select the Board of Directors. So gives a form?


According to 'Investopedia' and other reliable sources:
Amtrak is a state-owned enterprise. This means that Amtrak is a for-profit company, but that the federal government owns all its preferred stock. Amtrak made $2.4 billion in 2020. Amtrak provides rail service to over 500 destinations in 46 states and three Canadian provinces.









How Amtrak Makes Money


Last year, Amtrak transported 31.7 million Americans. However, the rail company relies on government subsidies and faces significant challenges ahead.




www.investopedia.com













Why You Can Blame the U.S. Supreme Court for Amtrak's On-Time Performance Over the Next Couple of Ye


The court ruled that the passenger rail service is indeed a government entity. But the details of how it will be allowed to manage its on-time performance could take years to resolve.




www.bloomberg.com


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## jis (Aug 13, 2021)

But the preferred stocks don’t have a vote and their liquidation value has also been essentially set to zero. So who cares who owns them?


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## Nick Farr (Aug 13, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> I’m curious: where do you get the idea that preferred stock confers no ownership?



Because Preferred Stock almost never implies ownership. In this case, the quoted part mentioning the voting rights being abolished along with the convertibility to common stock means ownership in the classic sense was not conferred. 

"Preferred Stock" almost never makes a claim of ownership as much as a claim to the assets and profits of the company ahead of common shareholders.

Yes, the government could come in at any time and convert its Preferred Stock to Common Stock and officially "own" Amtrak. But it stands nothing to gain by doing so.

Who owns Amtrak is functionally irrelevant. It's a funder-controlled entity and the primary (but not sole) funder is the Federal Government.


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## joelkfla (Aug 13, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> The new Nightjet cars don't all have the same configuration; each trainset will have 2 sleeping cars, 3 couchette cars, 1 coach car, and one multifunction car (luggage hold, accessible compartment, & coach seating). If/when Amtrak orders new sleeping cars it seems perfectly reasonable to have basic and "deluxe" configurations like they did with the Superliners IIs. The overnight Northeast Regionals are an ideal route for sleeping pod type or neo-Slumbercoach accommodation.


IMO, that would be a colossal waste of money. American travelers won't use them.


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## neroden (Aug 19, 2021)

jis said:


> But the preferred stocks don’t have a vote and their liquidation value has also been essentially set to zero. So who cares who owns them?


This is not correct -- maybe you mixed up preferred and common stock? The US government owns all the preferred stock. The US government has the right to claim its entire "past due" dividends on the preferred stock in the case of any attempt to liquidate or privatize Amtrak. It's essentially a lien on any money or assets in Amtrak which isn't secured by the two notes held by the government with their first liens. It was explicitly set up for this purpose when a government audit noted that the government's interests seemed to be insufficiently insured against shenanigans. So that's what the preferred stock is for: it secures the government's permanent control over Amtrak assets.

The common stock is what has a liquidation value of zero and is worthless, and we don't care who owns it. That's what's held by the former private railroads and American Premier Underwriters. There are a few weird things for which it has a vote (not much, some changes to Amtrak's charter) but the federal government could trivially convert enough preferred stock to outvote it if necessary, without really affecting their lien on all of Amtrak's assets.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2021)

neroden said:


> This is not correct -- maybe you mixed up preferred and common stock? The US government owns all the preferred stock. The US government has the right to claim its entire "past due" dividends on the preferred stock in the case of any attempt to liquidate or privatize Amtrak. It's essentially a lien on any money or assets in Amtrak which isn't secured by the two notes held by the government with their first liens. It was explicitly set up for this purpose when a government audit noted that the government's interests seemed to be insufficiently insured against shenanigans. So that's what the preferred stock is for: it secures the government's permanent control over Amtrak assets.
> 
> The common stock is what has a liquidation value of zero and is worthless, and we don't care who owns it. That's what's held by the former private railroads and American Premier Underwriters. There are a few weird things for which it has a vote (not much, some changes to Amtrak's charter) but the federal government could trivially convert enough preferred stock to outvote it if necessary, without really affecting their lien on all of Amtrak's assets.


You are correct of course. Thanks for the correction.

Amtrak did stop issuing preferred shares corresponding to each subsidy package some time back though, right?

I believe it has a vote for only charter changes proposed by the Board. But of course Congress can tweak the charter all it wants without consulting the Board or the stock holders apparently, since that is exactly what it seems to have done a few times already


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 20, 2021)

Apparently a graduate level understanding of corporate ownership and finances is important to Amtrak sleeper cars, who knew?


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## neroden (Aug 21, 2021)

jis said:


> You are correct of course. Thanks for the correction.
> 
> Amtrak did stop issuing preferred shares corresponding to each subsidy package some time back though, right?


Yep. I believe the government decided that it had enough of a security interest. The promissory note secured by the rolling stock is $1.1 billion; the one secured by all the real and personal property of Amtrak is $4 billion; the "dividends in arrears" are $5.8 billion.

I guess Congress decided in 1997 that Amtrak had less than $10.9 billion in assets and they didn't need any more security? That's when they stopped having Amtrak issue them more preferred stock. They're wrong at this point, since Amtrak now has $19 billion in assets, but they're probably not thinking about it much.



> I believe it has a vote for only charter changes proposed by the Board. But of course Congress can tweak the charter all it wants without consulting the Board or the stock holders apparently, since that is exactly what it seems to have done a few times already


Ah yes, you are correct.


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## neroden (Aug 21, 2021)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Apparently a graduate level understanding of corporate ownership and finances is important to Amtrak sleeper cars, who knew?


I like that this board allows topics to drift off topic, since I always drift off topic


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## Cal (Aug 21, 2021)

neroden said:


> I like that this board allows topics to drift off topic, since I always drift off topic


Me. Too.


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 22, 2021)

neroden said:


> I like that this board allows topics to drift off topic, since I always drift off topic


Do discussions drift “off topic,” or more often to one amorphous, but predictable, discussion usually involving complaints around dining, SSLs and lack of sleepers? (Regardless of OP topic)


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## joelkfla (Aug 22, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Do discussions drift “off topic,” or more often to one amorphous, but predictable, discussion usually involving complaints around dining, SSLs and lack of sleepers? (Regardless of OP topic)


Well, in this case, it drifted from sleeper amenities to a discussion of the ownership properties of common vs. preferred stock. I'd call that off topic.


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## jis (Aug 22, 2021)

And now it is drifting into the philosophical meta-topic of what is or is not a proper drift or not


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## sttom (Aug 22, 2021)

Since when do we not derail to the main topic?


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## Mailliw (Aug 22, 2021)

Speaking of off topic; I was in NYC this weekend and stayed at the Jane Hotel. The rooms are basically sleeping compartments and I think that setup is perfectly adequate for 1 night trains.


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## PVD (Aug 22, 2021)

Saturday was ok until the afternoon, pretty miserable after that.....


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## cocojacoby (Aug 24, 2021)

BTW - LAST VIEWLINER II SLEEPER RELEASED!

It's over friends


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## PaTrainFan (Aug 24, 2021)

Nice. And how many are actually in service and not stored somewhere out of sight and out of mind?



cocojacoby said:


> BTW - LAST VIEWLINER SLEEPER II RELEASED!
> 
> It's over friends


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 24, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Nice. And how many are actually in service and not stored somewhere out of sight and out of mind?


This!


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## cirdan (Aug 27, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> Velco that is not worn out or difficult to use on the curtains would also be appreciated.



Nothing wrong with the curtains IMHO, I actually like them, but Amtrak just needs to understand they don't last forever and needs to replace them more often, or at least replace the velcro strips.

On the whole, more regular and thorough inspections would be a good idea. Many of the minor complaints are about stuff that would be easy to fix but isn't fixed, probably because it isn't reported or reports are being ignored.

Getting new sleepers won't fix this. It needs to become part of management and corporate culture.


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## jis (Aug 27, 2021)

In my experience the VLIIs appear to have some serious ongoing teething troubles. I have ridden 6 segments on them so far, all on Silvers (naturally). Of those, in one, the toilets failed completely so we had to use the toilets in the other VLII. Fortunately it was on 97/98. Two times, the air conditioning failed partially, and no one seemed to be able to fix it. In general the finishing workmanship also leaves a bit to be desired IMHO. I just hope procurements are managed an order of magnitude better than this one. I am sure there is enough blame to go around. But I am not surprised that half the fleet at present appears to be "hangar queens".


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## Dustyroad (Aug 27, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Nothing wrong with the curtains IMHO, I actually like them, but Amtrak just needs to understand they don't last forever and needs to replace them more often, or at least replace the velcro strips.
> 
> On the whole, more regular and thorough inspections would be a good idea. Many of the minor complaints are about stuff that would be easy to fix but isn't fixed, probably because it isn't reported or reports are being ignored.
> 
> Getting new sleepers won't fix this. It needs to become part of management and corporate culture.


I totally agree about the velcro strips. I take a couple large clippies with me in case mine don't hold up in the roomette. I know they don't weigh much. but it is a bother to have to '' think out of the box '' and take extra things because of things that are not in good shape for the price we pay for the trip.


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## Cal (Aug 27, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Nothing wrong with the curtains IMHO, I actually like them, but Amtrak just needs to understand they don't last forever and needs to replace them more often, or at least replace the velcro strips.


I agree, I feel that the curtains add a sense of class.


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## neroden (Aug 27, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Speaking of off topic; I was in NYC this weekend and stayed at the Jane Hotel. The rooms are basically sleeping compartments and I think that setup is perfectly adequate for 1 night trains.


OMG, I love the bunk bed rooms. It's in an incredibly inconvenient location for me, but so cute.


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## cirdan (Aug 28, 2021)

Cal said:


> I agree, I feel that the curtains add a sense of class.



same as the bone china plates and flowers on the tables.

Unfortunately Amtrak seems to prefer saving a few pennies than offering passengers paying good money that sense of class.


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## joelkfla (Aug 28, 2021)

cirdan said:


> same as the bone china plates and flowers on the tables.
> 
> Unfortunately Amtrak seems to prefer saving a few pennies than offering passengers paying good money that sense of class.


Flowers have returned, at least for dinner. Curtains serve a purpose. 

Bone china doesn't serve any purpose higher than ordinary tableware, and most riders wouldn't know the difference. I'm happy as long as they're not using paper or plastic.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 28, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I'm happy as long as they're not using paper or plastic.



I'm sorry to report the plates on the CZ were the plastic ones they used before. The silverware is nice higher grade restaurant quality. 

That being said, it's not terribly noticeable and doesn't detract much from the upgraded experience.


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## joelkfla (Aug 28, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> I'm sorry to report the plates on the CZ were the plastic ones they used before. The silverware is nice higher grade restaurant quality.
> 
> That being said, it's not terribly noticeable and doesn't detract much from the upgraded experience.


Plastic like melamine, or single-use plastic?


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## Nick Farr (Aug 28, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Plastic like melamine, or single-use plastic?



A high quality single use plastic.

Everything about the new dining experience was very well thought-out, given the constraints. One of the things I hated about the old full-service dining on the CZ was how things appeared to be set up for the convenience of the OBS.

For example, they would store pens on each table by stabbing them through the underside of a paper cup. They had huge baskets of salad dressing that took up a lot of space at each table.

While I lament the loss of the warmed roll, the clean tables, simple flower, tablecloth, wine in glass cups and just the swirl on the dessert all indicate an extensive re-think of the entire experience.


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## joelkfla (Aug 28, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> A high quality single use plastic.


I guess that's OK. But IIRC, didn't they say back at the return of Traditional Dining that real tableware would return, but it would be at a later date? Perhaps it's still in the works.


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## Qapla (Aug 28, 2021)

I would be fine with Corelle, OFTAST, or even Melamine - something less likely to break that can still look nice


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## Cal (Aug 28, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Flowers have returned, at least for dinner. Curtains serve a purpose.
> 
> Bone china doesn't serve any purpose higher than ordinary tableware, and most riders wouldn't know the difference. I'm happy as long as they're not using paper or plastic.


Flowers for all meals, just not tablecloths 

Right now they are still using plastic plates and cups.


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## me_little_me (Aug 28, 2021)

The sad thing about plastic plates and cups is not that they are not bone china, but that they just generate waste if not re-used. Amtrak is a needless waste generator now (including flex food).


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 28, 2021)

Do the new Viewliner 2 Dinners even have a dishwasher?

Yes we’re off topic again but…


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## PVD (Aug 28, 2021)

If you don't have the staff to run it, a dishwasher is irrelevant.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 29, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Do the new Viewliner 2 Dinners even have a dishwasher?
> 
> Yes we’re off topic again but…



I think a listing of all the equipment on board a Viewliner 2 diner is very on topic!


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## denmarks (Aug 30, 2021)

Since the cost per night is more than some cruises I would like to have an entertainment center with music, TV, and WiFi. If you are single there is not much to do in the evening other than read.


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## Palmland (Aug 30, 2021)

denmarks said:


> Since the cost per night is more than some cruises I would like to have an entertainment center with music, TV, and WiFi.


I much prefer an iPad for our own entertainment (Pandora, Netflix). But we find that with the attractions out the window we use use it infrequently except at night when a good book on Kindle is all we need. The as delivered VI sleepers had a TV that didn’t last long and only annoyed other passengers.


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