# Proof of payment



## BCL (Mar 31, 2015)

It was always rather odd to me when transit systems went to various proof of payment/fare/pass system. I remember when I could buy a ticket on Caltrain, which I had to do on weekends when the ticket windows were closed at certain stations or when they went to stops where there were none. Then they installed machines, which gets interesting because there's the occasional event only stop where there is none. I've arrived just in time for the train, but not in time to buy a ticket or use the interagency fare card that I forgot at home. San Francisco's MUNI went to proof of fare, even for buses, as well as light rail and streetcars. The supposed advantage is that one can board from any door, but then they need to have fare inspectors for their entire system. Santa Clara County's VTA really only goes to proof of payment for light rail. The operator locks the door to the control room and generally doesn't interact with passengers.

It seems almost like an employment/revenue scheme where people get paid and they extract fines.


----------



## BCL (Mar 31, 2015)

Sorry about the double post. I had spotty WiFi that cut out and I wasn't sure if it had posted and clicked again.


----------



## fairviewroad (Mar 31, 2015)

One proof-of-payment system, Portland's Tri-Met light rail, is installing turnstiles at two stations on its new Orange Line:

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/03/trimet_turnstiles_orange_line.html

I don't think that's an explicit acknowledgement that the POP system is a failure...just an experiment. Many Tri-Met stations,

particularly those downtown, would require massive, expensive renovations to go to a gated/barrier system.


----------



## BCL (Mar 31, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> One proof-of-payment system, Portland's Tri-Met light rail, is installing turnstiles at two stations on its new Orange Line:
> 
> http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2015/03/trimet_turnstiles_orange_line.html
> 
> ...


San Francisco's MUNI is a hybrid system with buses, light rail/subway, and street cars. At the underground stations they do use these gates. They work automatically with the interagency Clipper Card or their own limited use cards using the system. However, one can still enter (flash to a station agent who presses a button) with a valid transfer from the surface, and all of their vehicles have transfers, even if they're not issued in the underground stations. Their operators still issue them by hand using a tear-out holder. Even so, with multiple cars one is supposed to pay for the fare in the lead car. I prefer the paper transfers because it's always more than the hard 90 minutes given by the automated system.







VTA is weird too. One can purchase a 2 hour or 8 hour light rail fare at one of the light rail stations, but it's not valid on any of the buses. However, a day pass is valid on non-express buses and light rail. And if Clipper is used, it automatically calculates the day pass rate when one maxes out. I understand it now, but it gets really confusing for someone from out of town.


----------



## Eric S (Apr 2, 2015)

Unless a system has extremely high ridership (or already has turnstiles installed), proof of payment (POP) really is the way to go. With proper inspections and fines, fare evasion is not much different that other systems. Compared to a system requiring each passenger to pay as he/she enters the vehicle (think traditional city bus), it is MUCH faster; this reduces travel times for all passengers and makes the transit system more efficient meaning it can either operate the same level of service at a lower cost or operate a greater level of service at the same cost. It also has the benefit of removing the need for the driver/operator to be involved in disputes regarding payment or nonpayment of fares.

Most new light rail systems (and I believe many of the newer commuter rail systems) in North America seem to have figured this out. Unfortunately few bus systems, with the notable exception of Muni in San Francisco, have adopted POP. And, the larger commuter rail systems in Chicago and the Northeast still use antiquated ticket practices rather than adopting POP.


----------



## MattW (Apr 2, 2015)

I don't think POP should be used except where you have very frequent headways, in other words not Caltrain or VRE.With transit, if you can't get your pass validated, you just didn't get there early enough and there's always a "next train" but on a system with sparse headways like Caltrain or VRE, you could be waiting an hour or more, or with VRE, miss your last train.


----------



## Eric S (Apr 2, 2015)

But that's not a function of POP, but rather with a specific type of fare that needs to be validated. The system could require you to "tap on" with a smart card on the vehicle itself and perhaps "tap off" when leaving the vehicle, or those readers could be placed on the platform. Or any number of other possibilities. No reason POP cannot coexist with longer headways.

Now, a separate discussion would be whether these systems should operate with such poor headways (or at least whether many of the systems should operate much more frequently).


----------



## BCL (Apr 3, 2015)

MattW said:


> I don't think POP should be used except where you have very frequent headways, in other words not Caltrain or VRE.With transit, if you can't get your pass validated, you just didn't get there early enough and there's always a "next train" but on a system with sparse headways like Caltrain or VRE, you could be waiting an hour or more, or with VRE, miss your last train.


I've been there before. I got to a Caltrain platform maybe a minute before the train arrived and forgot my Clipper card at home. There was one guy in front of me at the ticket machine, and he had no idea how to use it and got his ticket just in time to board the train. Since I was going to leave my car overnight, I decided to drive home rather than wait an hour for the next train (it was the last rush hour train).

Even ACE here has issues since all tickets have to be validated and there's a line. Even with 4 validating machines at the GAC station, it can take a minute in line. Now Capitol Corridor is more flexible. I've seen passengers who didn't have time to buy a ticket at Quik-Trak, and the conductors told them they could just buy one online with a mobile device and they'd come back later. Of course they had the option of buying straight from the conductor, but with a penalty. Once I was a table with another passenger who was new to Amtrak and didn't figure out how to use QT, and the conductor told her to buy a ticket for the next scheduled train (too late to buy one for this one) which she could use on any train for that route within a one year period.


----------

