# Hudson tunnel closures



## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 7, 2016)

What will happen to when one or both of the Hudson tunnels needs to be shut down?

Will NJ Transit stop operating trains into NYP?

Could Amtrak use the PATH tracks?

Will LD trains be stopped in NJ with PATH transfer?

Will there be through trains in NYP?

Will Gov Christie finally see that Amtrak should get money?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 7, 2016)

While it would be scenic crossing over in a bridge, I doubt there is enough space for them to descend into Penn Station without signifigant reconstruction. NJT would stop using the tunnels before Amtrak, because Amtrak owns the tunnels and NJT has Hoboken. Amtrak could probably keep current levels of service with just one tunnel open (6 tunnel slots per hour). And no, Amtrak could not use the PATH tunnels, they are rapid transit just like the subway.


----------



## CCC1007 (Aug 7, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> What will happen to when one or both of the Hudson tunnels needs to be shut down?
> 
> Will NJ Transit stop operating trains into NYP?
> 
> ...


PATH has too many trains and too tight of clearance, so that isn't an option, and since NJT is a tenant on those tracks, it would stand to reason that there would only be ~8 round trips per hour in the remaining tunnel, so there is going to be quite a bit of a squeeze of capacity into the station.


----------



## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 8, 2016)

with the steep gradient on the bridge, what would that grade be? Could trains with a high power to weight ratio make it or would it be nearly impossible, even with station operations moved the James A. Farley post office?


----------



## CCC1007 (Aug 8, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> with the steep gradient on the bridge, what would that grade be? Could trains with a high power to weight ratio make it or would it be nearly impossible, even with station operations moved the James A. Farley post office?


The bridge must be high enough to clear ship traffic, a draw bridge is out of the question due to high traffic levels on the tracks and the water, and the tracks for the station are a long way down below river level, so the tracks would need to descend 100+ feet in less than a mile, so 2+% grades, probably closer to 4%, and there would also have to be demolition of several blocks of buildings to allow for the bridge to be there. It's not practical, but it is possible if there is pressing enough of a need for the bridge to be built.


----------



## jis (Aug 8, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> What will happen to when one or both of the Hudson tunnels needs to be shut down?


There will be no main line trains operating between NJ and New York if both tunnels are shut down.

If one tunnel is shut down, the speculation is Amtrak will operate about 2tph between NJ and NYP. NJT will operate 6tph adding up to the available 8 slots on an average.

The balance of 18tph during rush hour that NJT operates would probably get distributed to three turning points - Newark Penn, Hoboken and Secaucus in some feasible proportion.



> Will NJ Transit stop operating trains into NYP?


Yes, if both tunnels are out, and so will Amtrak from the south/west (except for those that come in via the Empire Corridor, and from Boston/New Haven. See above.

No. If one tunnel is open.



> Could Amtrak use the PATH tracks?


No.



> Will LD trains be stopped in NJ with PATH transfer?


This was discussed at length in a previous thread. If both tunnels are out, the general consensus was that LD trains will be terminated in Philadelphia and turned there. Of course the LSL can still continue to run to NYP.

If one tunnel is out, it should be possible to continue to operate the four LD trains that operate through NJ all the way to NYP.



> Will there be through trains in NYP?


If both tunnels are out then No. Not between Washington and Boston. There could be through trains from the Empire Corridor to the north/est through NYP.

If only one tunnel is out there should be no problem operating an hourly through train through NYP.



> Will Gov Christie finally see that Amtrak should get money?


He will be too busy polishing Trump's shoes and fetching Big Macs for him, to worry about such mundane things 

More seriously, Christie (or the then NJ Governor, which by then is unlikely to be Christie) will need to come up with a couple of billion from somewhere. As usual probably both the NY and NJ Governor will go and milk their private piggy-bank - the PANYNJ some more.  They will find the money if the feds find their share.

One can rest assured that no bridge will get built across the Hudson below the George Washington Bridge except in the feverish fantasy of a few whose entire contribution to humanity appears to be to add confusion and waste everyone's time and drain scarce resou8rce by adding one more study by inserting nonsensical ideas into the discussion.

BTW the last choice "go around Manhatten and use the Hell gate bridge and East river tunnels" is absurd nonsense and shows a certain lack of familiarity with the geography of the New York area and what facilities exist.


----------



## afigg (Aug 8, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> What will happen to when one or both of the Hudson tunnels needs to be shut down?
> 
> ......
> 
> Will Gov Christie finally see that Amtrak should get money?


Hopefully the two new tunnels will be completed by the time the first of the Hudson tunnels has to be shut down for an extended rebuild. The environmental and engineering studies to build the new tunnels and tracks on the NJ side are underway with promises of being expedited by the US DOT and the FRA.

Gov. Christie and Gov. Cuomo have agreed that NJ and NY will pick up 1/2 the cost of the Gateway project, although I take this to mean the two Portal bridges, the 2 new tracks in NJ, and the 2 new tunnels to NYP parts of the project. The NYP South and Moynihan station parts of the project appear to be getting split off into a different project.

However, NJ has a severe transportation and infrastructure funding crisis as the state gasoline tax, which is the lowest of all US states except Alaska, now only collects enough revenue to pay the debt service on the bonds. No money for new construction projects. Gov. Christie has been all but AWOL on the crisis while he is off having surrendered his last shred of dignity to the Trump campaign and his fading hopes for a plum cabinet job, now that Trump did not pick him for the VP spot. Gov. Christie is term limited, so he can't run for re-election in 2017 if he even were so inclined and didn't have historically terrible approval ratings in NJ. By the time NJ will have to put up serious bucks towards the Hudson tunnel project, the state will have a new Governor who will have to spend years cleaning up and fixing the fiscal mess left by Christie.

Website for the Hudson Tunnel project. Note that there are no plans for railroad bridges across the Hudson river in the name of the project nor the studies.


----------



## west point (Aug 8, 2016)

There are a couple solutions that would probably mitigate the possibility of one present bore shut down. Amtrak can combine their LD trains at PHL and run the combined train as an 18 car train. One diner one lounge, 5 or 6 sleepers, 10 coaches. Somehow qualigy Acelas to combine into two train sets. Run regionals combined especially the Harrisburg trains at PHL as 18 car trains. Scheduling opposite direction trains at NYP will take some thought.

This would certainly change many schedules some to the detriment of passenger loads.

NJT could combine NEC and the other trains at Newark.


----------



## jis (Aug 8, 2016)

west point said:


> There are a couple solutions that would probably mitigate the possibility of one present bore shut down. Amtrak can combine their LD trains at PHL and run the combined train as an 18 car train. One diner one lounge, 5 or 6 sleepers, 10 coaches. Somehow qualigy Acelas to combine into two train sets. Run regionals combined especially the Harrisburg trains at PHL as 18 car trains. Scheduling opposite direction trains at NYP will take some thought.
> 
> This would certainly change many schedules some to the detriment of passenger loads.
> 
> NJT could combine NEC and the other trains at Newark.


Amtrak LD trains are so infrequent and mostly at lowest of low traffic times that it is almost irrelevant what you do with them. NJT trains can be shuffled to get one LD train in on the rare occasion when one shows up. And of course these days one of the LD train, the Palmetto is already combined with a Regional so it does not take any extra slot.

My conjecture is that the LD trains should be able to operate almost without any change even with the loss of one tunnel. There just aren't enough of them in a day to worry about too much.

I can see 18 cars excites you. But since they would be hard to fit in Penn station, that will not happen.

NJT will not combine anything at Newark. They will either run 14 car trains or they will just run their regular 10-11 car trains. They will have an easier opportunity to divert a bunch to Hoboken since they will be able to slot them so that they do not conflict with new York trains at Dock, and on the single track section between Hudson and Meadows.

NYP already operates on a single tunnel schedule on all weekends these days.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2016)

What about returning to the olden days when Ferries were the way to get from Jersey to the Apple?

Ferries seem to work great in the Bay Area,( used to have Train Ferries from Oakland to San Fran) Seattle and Canada, as well as in the rest of the world!

This seems like a good interm solution while New Tunnels are dug or the old ones are updated one @ a time!

Of course, if a major disaster happens to the tunnels all bets are off!


----------



## jis (Aug 8, 2016)

None of the real estate that was occupied by the Pavonia, Jersey City or Exchange Place Stations are available for such use any more. Any use of ferries is limited by the capacity of Hoboken Station, and ferries (New York Waterway) are already in use in a very significant way from Hoboken to lower Manhattan WFC.

So traffic from the NJCL may be divertable via the Atlantic Highlands Ferry and possibly even a new high speed ferry service from further downline like maybe Red bank even.

That is about it when it comes to diverting traffic to ferries.

Shutting down one entire tube of the Lincoln tunnel and dedicating it to buses going in loaded and coming back to NJ empty in the morning and vice versa in the evening may be an option worth exploring. Already many many more people are transported by buses from NJ to NY than are by NEC.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2016)

Thanks jis, you can tell I haven't been to Jersey in awhile except passing through on the NEC!


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Aug 9, 2016)

Not to disagree with you Jis. I know you are far more plugged into things then myself. I don't see an easy way to route NJCL traffic through either Red Bank or Atlantic Highlands. Those two areas are very much my "home turf". Getting out of Red Bank requires going under a moving bridge. Having gone under that bridge many times on a boat something the size of the Highlands Ferry would be tough to get through there. Not to mention the waters there are very tidal and even in the channel it's not impossible to see water levels of only around 3 feet. Plus the train station and the waterfront aren't terribly close to one another. A good chunk of the waterfront there is dominated by a hospital. From Atlantic Highlands you would be looking at a 10 mile bus bridge from the Hazlet train station. About the same from the Middletown Train Station to the ferry in Belford. And again in Middletown it would be some very residential roads to weave east to Highway 36.

It would certainly be a huge mess. Although I guess if it really got that poor plans would have to be created. Although the ferries are all run by private companies, and cost about $200 more a month then the railroad. I would hate to see the outcome if both tunnels went away. It would truly be a national embarrassment if we let the vital link in our only half baked excuse for high speed rail crumble into the riverbed. Although looking at the disaster of the Washington Metro I guess nothing can really be ruled out anymore.


----------



## jis (Aug 10, 2016)

I agree that ferries from Monmouth county are mostly impractical. Those ferries from Monmouth County as a significant means would become marginally practical only if all other means of getting to Manhattan became very difficult. There will still be the Route 9 bus alternative too, specially if tunnel and turnpike lanes are commandeered for bus use only, which is likely.

From Middletown, the only residential road would be to get to Route 35 (isn't that road ostentatiously named "Kings Highway"?. I used to work in the AT&T building in Middletown and watched that line get electrified from my office window  Actually any Highlands bus bridge would most likely be from Matawan which is close to the 35/36/GSP interchange. Again, I commuted through Matawan when I occasionally took the train to Chatham to get to my office when I lived down in Howell Township and did not feel like driving all the way to Chatham.


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Aug 10, 2016)

jis said:


> I agree that ferries from Monmouth county are mostly impractical. Those ferries from Monmouth County as a significant means would become marginally practical only if all other means of getting to Manhattan became very difficult. There will still be the Route 9 bus alternative too, specially if tunnel and turnpike lanes are commandeered for bus use only, which is likely.
> 
> From Middletown, the only residential road would be to get to Route 35 (isn't that road ostentatiously named "Kings Highway"?. I used to work in the AT&T building in Middletown and watched that line get electrified from my office window  Actually any Highlands bus bridge would most likely be from Matawan which is close to the 35/36/GSP interchange. Again, I commuted through Matawan when I occasionally took the train to Chatham to get to my office when I lived down in Howell Township and did not feel like driving all the way to Chatham.


Haha, As usual schooled about my own neighborhood. :giggle: :hi: I don't know why I wasn't thinking about the Matawan station. Yes that would be the easier choice. And you are right about the name of the road. My parents both worked at that AT&T facility, and actually my mom still does. She is in building A while he used to be in building E. Not sure the last time you went back there, but it is a ghost town compared to what I remember visiting as a child. At this point my mom's office is the only occupied down an entire hallway.

It is really a scary thought to imagine how things would be routed around the loss of the tunnels. It's something that would have national implications, but would probably affect my day to day life greatly. Right now when I'm at the office I find myself commuting through the empty space between the NJCL to an office a couple minutes away from Princeton Junction.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 10, 2016)

Did the proposal to build a freight tunnel via Staten Island and Brooklyn die completely? That won't be any quicker to build though.

Stupid question, but isn't PATH, although rapid transit in practice, considered a mainline railway due to connection or shared ROW/trackage somewhere?

Those extra tunnels really need to be built - and fast!

Isn't there a ferry from somewhere around Port Imperial? Or was that mentioned already? I have no idea about the specific geography of the area.


----------



## jis (Aug 10, 2016)

Long Train Runnin' said:


> Haha, As usual schooled about my own neighborhood. :giggle: :hi: I don't know why I wasn't thinking about the Matawan station. Yes that would be the easier choice. And you are right about the name of the road. My parents both worked at that AT&T facility, and actually my mom still does. She is in building A while he used to be in building E. Not sure the last time you went back there, but it is a ghost town compared to what I remember visiting as a child. At this point my mom's office is the only occupied down an entire hallway.


We were the second group to move into the original building on the site just after it was built. We moved there from the Holmdel building, which is now finally getting repurposed after sitting unused for many years. Our move came about as a result of separation of what then was called AT&T Information System Labs, which moved to Middletown and Lincroft, from Bell Laboratories, which remained in Holmdel. Consequently, I did not go much into the Holmdel building after 1985. Only went there to enjoy lunch in the spectacular dining room they had overlooking a lake with swans in it, and also for meetings with our Bell Labs colleagues. Also used to visit Murray Hill from time to time for that, specially to meet the UNIX research gang (Ritchie, Kernighan, Thiompson, Rob Pike, Tad Kowalsy et. al.) there. I left the Middletown office and move to the AT&T UNIX Labs in Summit (200 River Road at the intersection of Rt 24 and 124) around 1990.



Metra Electric Rider said:


> Did the proposal to build a freight tunnel via Staten Island and Brooklyn die completely? That won't be any quicker to build though.


The proposed freight tunnel for which Rep. Nadler was and has been pushing was from the Jersey waterfront to Brooklyn and did not involve Staten Island AFAIR. I don't think there ever was a serious freight tunnel proposal via Staten Island, but I could be wrong.



> Stupid question, but isn't PATH, although rapid transit in practice, considered a mainline railway due to connection or shared ROW/trackage somewhere?


There are no remaining connections between PATH and mainline railroad except for one equipment transfer connection. Now it is mainly FRA unwilling to swallow a reduction in their fiefdom. There is absolutely no reason other than FRA preserving fiefdom for it to be FRA governed any more.



> Those extra tunnels really need to be built - and fast!


Yes. The Hudson ones. I am not so sure about the Nadler one.



> Isn't there a ferry from somewhere around Port Imperial? Or was that mentioned already? I have no idea about the specific geography of the area.


There are several ferries from the Jersey side to Manhattan. One is from Port Imperial in Weehawken adjacent to an HBLRT station, another from Hoboken NJT station. There is a third one from the Exchange Place area and a fourth from further south somewhere around Bayonne as I recall. And then there is of course the famous MTA Staten Island Ferry too.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 10, 2016)

Oh, no I meant the Hudson mainline tunnels.

What about the subway extension to NJ - obviously no quicker to build than the mainline tunnels - but it would be a help.


----------



## jis (Aug 10, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Oh, no I meant the Hudson mainline tunnels.
> 
> What about the subway extension to NJ - obviously no quicker to build than the mainline tunnels - but it would be a help.


NJ-ARP, of which I am a member of the Board, strongly support the #7 to Secaucus proposal. There has been a draft EIS done by Parsons. Since then not much has happened. Actually that proposal really serves the commuters better than added capacity to Penn Station, specially those that are trying to get to mid to upper east side where most of the upscale jobs are these days. The PB study actually repurposed the original ARC tunnel alignment which incidentally is not used by THE Gateway Tunnels, for this.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 10, 2016)

It always seemed to me to be a no brainer to have more subway extensions out from NYC, like Chicago and other cities have, rather than the dead, full stop at the city limits (obviously Metro North and LIRR have some urban services as well).


----------



## jis (Aug 10, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> It always seemed to me to be a no brainer to have more subway extensions out from NYC, like Chicago and other cities have, rather than the dead, full stop at the city limits (obviously Metro North and LIRR have some urban services as well).


Arguably, the Port Washington Line should operated more like a subway than as a commuter line. If New York was Tokyo, long back the Port Washington Line would have been connected into the E/F IND system in Elmhurst and made part of the Subway system. At least they did revert the New York Westchester and Boston to Subway within New York City. They should have extended it further as subway into Westchester County.

Similarly, all three cross Manhattan lines - 7, L and M should have been built out to NJ. As things stand the NY system is just partially screwed up.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 10, 2016)

Probably way off topic, but it's interesting to surmise how the region would have developed differently with even more extensive subway service.


----------



## neroden (Aug 11, 2016)

That state border is a doozy. It's proven politically impossible to send any subway extensions into New Jersey because of it.

The last subway which crossed the border was in the days of private, for-profit subways -- the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, now PATH.


----------

