# New AGR vs. Old AGR



## printman2000 (Dec 10, 2015)

Okay, have a trip next year (2016). It will cost us 60,000 points under the old system for two roomettes roundtrip.

Using the points estimator on the AGR site, I can get this trip for only 49,404 points.

My concern is that something will change and the actual points prices will be different than the "estimator".

Can I book the trip now under the old system, then, if the new system is actually cheaper, cancel and rebook without penalty?

Under the new system, there are penalties for canceling and I am unsure if the old system of no penalties will still be honored on an old system reservation.

Hope that is clear.


----------



## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

https://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/

Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?

A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.


----------



## printman2000 (Dec 10, 2015)

Crud. Guess my plan will not work. Guess I will have to roll the dice one way or the other.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2015)

printman2000 said:


> My concern is that something will change and the actual points prices will be different than the "estimator".


Not to mention the revenue prices themselves are likely to change over time, potentially rising by a substantial amount. In that case even if the points estimator is entirely correct on a points per dollar basis you could still end up spending more than what it _currently_ estimates through no fault of the estimator itself. My rule of thumb is that unless your future trip makes no sense under the current system, presumably because it's so short and cheap that isn't ecomoical to spend even a single zone's worth of points, it's probably best to book under the current system.


----------



## DoB (Dec 10, 2015)

BCL said:


> Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.


Highly unlikely (and probably illegal).


----------



## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

DoB said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like after Jan 24 the modification/cancellation rules will be the new ones even if booked before that date.
> ...


How would it be illegal? The thing that a lot of people don't get about loyalty programs is that the terms are not guaranteed. They're giving plenty of notice and theoretically wouldn't have to give any.

_https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/terms_

_Amtrak may, in its discretion, cancel, modify, restrict, or terminate the Program or any aspects or features of the Program at any time without prior notice._

While they don't say it outright, the wording strongly suggests that one can book under the old system, but that modification and cancellation terms will change to the new ones (i.e. the 10% penalty) on Jan 24. Or perhaps there's a different interpretation for _"unless modified or canceled on or after this date"_.

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/2016redemptionguidelines


----------



## City of Miami (Dec 14, 2015)

I just got off the phone with Guest Rewards and agent Judy clarified that the change penalties beginning Jan 24th apply to all reservations regardless of when they were made. 10% plus an additional 10% if change is within 14 days of departure.


----------



## printman2000 (Dec 14, 2015)

Thanks for the info. At least I know my plan will not work how I hoped. Now to decide which way to go.

Guess I need to get my coin ready to flip.


----------



## BCL (Dec 14, 2015)

City of Miami said:


> I just got off the phone with Guest Rewards and agent Judy clarified that the change penalties beginning Jan 24th apply to all reservations regardless of when they were made. 10% plus an additional 10% if change is within 14 days of departure.


It's still unclear what the penalty really is. The wording of the new rules seems to be that a 10% penalty will be assessed on any points due back to the member, but that if additional points are due to Amtrak, then there is no penalty.

The 10% "close-in" penalty is also 24 hours if it's not a sleeper. It's still unclear what would be the points basis for that. I was thinking it could be based on the entire booking, the value of the segment(s) modified, or maybe something else.


----------



## DoB (Dec 14, 2015)

BCL said:


> DoB said:
> 
> 
> > BCL said:
> ...


Of course, AGR is free to change the terms for any future bookings, just as they're free to change the price tag - and they're doing both next month. But if you book a trip for next summer today, under today's pricing system and today's cancellation policy, AGR can't unilaterally apply a new cancellation policy (any more than they could yank extra points out of your account because the price of your trip went up in the new system).

Now, perhaps AGR has _already changed the cancellation policy_ for trips after January 24, in which case you'd be out of luck if you book your ticket today. But they certainly hadn't changed the cancellation policy back in March, when I called to make an AGR reservation and explicitly asked about the cancellation policy, and was told that I'd get a full refund if I canceled before the it began. My trip was in May (and I didn't cancel it), but had it been in February, AGR would have been bound by the cancellation policy in effect at the time I booked my ticket, as relayed to me by the AGR agent.

Think about it this way. If you buy a widget from a store with a prominently posted 90-day return policy, and a week later the store cuts that back to a 30-day return policy, they can't legitimately deny your return 60 days later. Not only didn't you agree to the new policy, you possibly didn't even know about it (just as someone who booked a ticket in March for next February might have no idea that the AGR program is changing in January - not everybody follows this stuff as closely as we do).


----------



## BCL (Dec 14, 2015)

DoB said:


> Of course, AGR is free to change the terms for any future bookings, just as they're free to change the price tag - and they're doing both next month. But if you book a trip for next summer today, under today's pricing system and today's cancellation policy, AGR can't unilaterally apply a new cancellation policy (any more than they could yank extra points out of your account because the price of your trip went up in the new system).
> 
> Now, perhaps AGR has _already changed the cancellation policy_ for trips after January 24, in which case you'd be out of luck if you book your ticket today. But they certainly hadn't changed the cancellation policy back in March, when I called to make an AGR reservation and explicitly asked about the cancellation policy, and was told that I'd get a full refund if I canceled before the it began. My trip was in May (and I didn't cancel it), but had it been in February, AGR would have been bound by the cancellation policy in effect at the time I booked my ticket, as relayed to me by the AGR agent.


That wasn't the question. The question was about doing so when the terms are already out there, which were made available in late August.

However, I'm not so sure that they're going to honor the previous cancellation terms if a booking for this March was made perhaps last June. There are a lot of things that can be odd, such as someone purchasing a membership in a fitness club chain because there's a convenient location nearby, but then they close that location during the membership term. I'm not sure that AGR agents are going to be able to handle dealing with two different cancellation policies once Jan 24 rolls around. Perhaps there's some manual tweaks that an agent (or supervisor) can do.


----------



## DoB (Dec 14, 2015)

BCL said:


> That wasn't the question. The question was about doing so when the terms are already out there, which were made available in late August.
> 
> However, I'm not so sure that they're going to honor the previous cancellation terms if a booking for this March was made perhaps last June. There are a lot of things that can be odd, such as someone purchasing a membership in a fitness club chain because there's a convenient location nearby, but then they close that location during the membership term. I'm not sure that AGR agents are going to be able to handle dealing with two different cancellation policies once Jan 24 rolls around. Perhaps there's some manual tweaks that an agent (or supervisor) can do.


There are two sets of terms out there now: one set effective through January 23, 2016, and another set effective after that date. If you book a ticket at any point through January 23, the old set applies. If you wait until January 24 or later to book (or if you modify a reservation made under the old set), the new set applies. The new terms are simply not relevant to anybody reserving tickets before that date.

The current terms are a bit weasely: "Amtrak travel reward trips may be modified or canceled if applicable. Points will not be refunded if the redemption trip is not cancelled prior to the time of departure ("no-show"). All modifications to redemption trips are subject to availability and Point/monetary penalty. Cancellations of redemption travel are subject to applicable point penalty." Yet I don't see the penalty defined anywhere. So perhaps the current policy allows for whatever penalty AGR wishes to charge (kind of like this), but AGR has been generous up until now in opting to not charge one. But that certainly isn't what my agent told me in March!

Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.

Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.

AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.


----------



## BCL (Dec 15, 2015)

DoB said:


> Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.
> 
> Every fitness club chain spells out in its terms what happens if a branch closes. And fitness clubs are welcome to change their terms for new membership and for renewals, but they can't impose more restrictive terms on memberships that are already under way.
> 
> AGR's technical issues are AGR's problem, not the customer's. If the customer is entitled to a full refund (because an AGR agent confirmed that he'd be entitled to a full refund if he canceled his trip), then it's on AGR to find a way to provide a full refund.


They're talking about the difference between the program rules (what it costs to earn/redeerm) and cancellation/modification rules.

As I noted, there are a lot of things that change, and I'm not quite sure that anyone is really going to grandfather the rules. For instance, United Club changed their rules to that saying that after a certain date that one is required to show a ticket for travel. However, there are those who purchased/renewed their memberships before the announcement. I'm guessing United still feels they're subject to those rules. One with a membership used to be able to get a pass to get through security, but now it probably wouldn't make any sense. This may even affect some AGR members who might be able to get past security on a gate pass to accompany someone else, but then decide to visit a United Club before leaving.


----------



## ain't no Metroliner (Dec 15, 2015)

I just booked a rewards trip for February and was told that the old rules will apply if I need to cancel my trip. I would get all my points back.


----------



## printman2000 (Dec 15, 2015)

ain't no Metroliner said:


> I just booked a rewards trip for February and was told that the old rules will apply if I need to cancel my trip. I would get all my points back.


Well that muddies the water.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Dec 15, 2015)

Yep, call in five times, get five different answers! It's Amtrak!


----------



## willem (Dec 15, 2015)

To paraphrase Zach from The Big Bang Theory (who was talking about science rather than Amtrak): "That's what I like about Amtrak--there is no one right answer."


----------



## BCL (Dec 15, 2015)

I suppose we really won't know until someone actually tries it. I also suspect that if anyone manages to suffer a penalty on an AGR redemption reserved before the , that it could be overridden or perhaps restored at the discretion of a supervisor.

At this point it doesn't sound as if anyone really knows what's going on.


----------



## DoB (Dec 15, 2015)

BCL said:


> DoB said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, these two sentences in the new terms are contradictory: "The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, reward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date." Drop the words "or canceled" and they no longer contradict. But with those words, the first sentence agrees with me and the second agrees with you.
> ...


The cancellation/modification policy is part of the program rules. The cancellation/refund policy is always determined by when the purchase is made, because that's when the purchaser agrees to the terms. The terms can't be changed after that point without the purchaser's consent, and simply waiting for January 23 to come and go cannot be construed as consent.

This isn't a question of grandfathering. This is a question of simply honoring the terms that Amtrak and the traveler mutually agreed to when the purchase was made.

For some people, a generous cancellation policy is important. Somebody who books a ticket because of a generous cancellation policy has every right to expect that full cancellation policy to be upheld; otherwise, he might have booked a Flexible fare in cash or flown Southwest (which also has a generous cancellation policy for redemptions and a generous change policy for everyone).



printman2000 said:


> Well that muddies the water.


Not at all - it confirms what I've been saying all along. If you book a trip today, today's cancellation policy applies. If you book a trip on or after January 24, the new cancellation policy applies.


----------



## PRR 60 (Dec 15, 2015)

When Amtrak imposed a new and stricter cancellation and refund policy for paid reservations on March 1, 2014, the policy was applied to all reservations, including those made prior to the change. It would not surprise me if that was the case here as well. I certainly do not see anything from Amtrak that says that existing reservations will not be subject to the penalties.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Dec 15, 2015)

I agree with Bill, Amtrak and AGR, as with all Loyalty programs, are under no obligation to honor pre-exisiting rules and regulations. As the saying goes, everything is subject to change without notice!


----------



## BCL (Dec 15, 2015)

DoB said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Well that muddies the water.
> ...


Again, that seems to be your interpretation. Amtrak's written policy is pretty clear that there will be something different in the cancellation/modification policy regardless of when the reservation was made. At the very least it would be legally defensible given that the policy change was announced last August.


----------



## TinCan782 (Dec 16, 2015)

From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...

_Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?_

_A: The new program rules will take effect for any reward tickets booked on or after January 24, 2016. Therefore, r*eward tickets booked prior to January 24, 2016 will not be affected by the new redemption policy unless modified or canceled on or after this date.*_

http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/


----------



## PRR 60 (Dec 16, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> I agree with Bill, Amtrak and AGR, as with all Loyalty programs, are under no obligation to honor pre-exisiting rules and regulations. As the saying goes, everything is subject to change without notice!


To AGR's credit, that have given lots of notice with these changes.


----------



## rrdude (Dec 16, 2015)

FrensicPic said:


> From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...
> 
> _Q: What about my reward trip that I have already reserved?_
> 
> ...


I don't this this helps with this disagreement. I think the question is, "I made my rezzy under the OLD system, (and in theory, "terms and conditions") but what if I MODIFY or CANCEL _*after*_ January 24th......."


----------



## printman2000 (Dec 16, 2015)

DoB said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Well that muddies the water.
> ...


Yes it does. Two people have called and got opposite answers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2015)

rrdude said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > From the AGR website, seems pretty clear...
> ...


Looks like it gives us Amtrak's written position on what will happen.



printman2000 said:


> DoB said:
> 
> 
> > printman2000 said:
> ...


This dispute mainly seems to revolve around what is right vs. what is legal, which are almost entirely unrelated if you really think about it. Let's say Amtrak somehow forgets to cover all their bases with fine print and breaks the law by penalizing you illegally. Who is going to pay your legal bills as you take Amtrak to court and spend many times the value of the original penalty on the hope that maybe you'll eventually get some tiny fraction of your total expenses back again? Even if you take Amtrak to small claims court you could be looking at a year or two of effort just to break even, assuming you prevailed at all.


----------



## I always rode the Southern (Dec 17, 2015)

DoB said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > DoB said:
> ...


No, it muddies the water. I called a few days ago to book a trip in April and was told that if I wanted to modify or cancel on after Jan 24th, the penalty would apply. If I modified before that date, no penalty. What I didn't ask to be clarified was what that penalty would be assessed on. I just assumed it would be the worst case, that the points you spent would be returned to your account minus 10%, no matter what (2,500 loss on 25,000 pt BR.) and then you would buy at the new rate and have a greater loss if the bucket is cost is higher. So I hope everyone is correct in assuming that the penalty is only if the new bucket rate is lower. :unsure:


----------



## BCL (Dec 17, 2015)

I always rode the Southern said:


> No, it muddies the water. I called a few days ago to book a trip in April and was told that if I wanted to modify or cancel on after Jan 24th, the penalty would apply. If I modified before that date, no penalty. What I didn't ask to be clarified was what that penalty would be assessed on. I just assumed it would be the worst case, that the points you spent would be returned to your account minus 10%, no matter what (2,500 loss on 25,000 pt BR.) and then you would buy at the new rate and have a greater loss if the bucket is cost is higher. So I hope everyone is correct in assuming that the penalty is only if the new bucket rate is lower. :unsure:


Of course here are the guidelines:

https://amtrakguestrewards.com/info/2016redemptionguidelines

The cancellation policy seems pretty clear.

_* For cancelations on one-way, round-trip or multi-segment reward travel, the following will apply:_


A 10% points penalty is assessed for any refund (redeposit) back to the member account.
_If canceling a non-sleeper ticket within 24 hours prior to departure, or a sleeper ticket within 14 days prior to departure, an additional "close-in" penalty of 10% of the points redeemed will be collected (waived for Select Executive)_
It's a straight up 10% of the total amount, plus a 10% additional close-in penalty if cancelled too late.


----------



## printman2000 (Dec 18, 2015)

I have confirmed from a very solid source that the new program rules will apply to ALL reservations after January 24th, 2016, regardless of when they were reserved.


----------



## TinCan782 (Dec 18, 2015)

Several weeks ago I booked a "zone" based AGR trip. The representative asked if I understood that penalties may apply if I modified or cancelled 1/24.

I think everyone should count on the penalties under the new system. If, for some reason, someone escapes that, consider yourself lucky and enjoy!


----------



## benale (Dec 19, 2015)

I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.

I booked the longest 20,000 point roomette reservation I could find for March. If I had to cancel after Jan 24 it would cost me 55,000 points for the same itinerary.


----------



## HARHBG (Dec 19, 2015)

As for those who have written, I can attest to the fact that Amtrak indeed _*makes up rules as they go along or when it benefits Amtrak*_. In redeeming the six upgrade coupons I've received, I've gotten five different "interpretations" of the rules. The last one was not being able to redeem the upgrade coupon from Business to First on Acela because I had a "Disability Fare"....Amtrak justified this under the very last line of the conditions paragraph as "Other conditions may apply"...............and when asked specifically for a list of all "other conditions" Amtrak agent mumbled, "I don't have time for that now."...............

So I guess if you're wearing a blue shirt that day Amtrak can decide, _*no upgrades for those in blue shirts today*_ and justify it by citing, "Other conditions may apply"..................


----------



## BCL (Dec 19, 2015)

benale said:


> I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.
> 
> I booked the longest 20,000 point roomette reservation I could find for March. If I had to cancel after Jan 24 it would cost me 55,000 points for the same itinerary.


I don't think "null and void" is quite the right way to express how it will all go down. Obviously cancelling before the trip starts (but on/after Jan 24) will return the points minus the 10% penalty. They won't allow for a modification that uses the old rules for point costs, but rather subject to the new rules where the points required are cash fare based.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Dec 19, 2015)

HARHBG said:


> As for those who have written, I can attest to the fact that Amtrak indeed _*makes up rules as they go along or when it benefits Amtrak*_. In redeeming the six upgrade coupons I've received, I've gotten five different "interpretations" of the rules. The last one was not being able to redeem the upgrade coupon from Business to First on Acela because I had a "Disability Fare"....Amtrak justified this under the very last line of the conditions paragraph as "Other conditions may apply"...............and when asked specifically for a list of all "other conditions" Amtrak agent mumbled, "I don't have time for that now."...............
> 
> So I guess if you're wearing a blue shirt that day Amtrak can decide, _*no upgrades for those in blue shirts today*_ and justify it by citing, "Other conditions may apply"..................


I think the disability, senior, etc fares are ALWAYS excluded because you already got a discount/special from them.


----------



## benale (Dec 20, 2015)

Yeah, I guess null and void are not the right terms to use. What i was trying to say is that I booked the longest possible trip I could take using a two zone roomette award for 20,000 points and I chose El Paso to Fort Lauderdale. Five days and four nights. I am also using two trains that have very high prices for their sleepers The Cardinal and The Silver Meteor. After the new system goes into place next month there is no way I could afford a trip like this, point wise or cash wise.. As I mentioned, the 20,000 point zone redemption I made now would be 65,000 points under the new system. Actually, I'm leaving from Los Angeles the night before and riding coach to El Paso where the zone occurs..so five nights on the train. One night in coach is fine, as the anticipation of the sleeper the next day will be with me.

With the 100point minimum soon to be history, my point runs will be gone, so I wanted this "one last hurrah" I earned about 10,000 points this past fall using $12 round trips each week at 450 points with Select.. If i were to cancel after 1/24 the 20,000 points(minus 10%)would be returned,but I would probably use them in an entirely different way.


----------



## chakk (Dec 24, 2015)

BCL said:


> benale said:
> 
> 
> > I made a zone based reservation for March earlier this month. Everything is the same until 1/24. If you cancel before that date there is no penalty. After 1/24 it is 10%. Also if you have booked a zone reservation for anytime after the new rules take effect, it will be null and void if you cancel after that date when AGR goes to a cash based system.
> ...


But, if you cancel within 24 hrs of a non-sleeper trip or 14 days of a sleeper trip, then the total penalty increases to 20%.


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

Well, my fears of the new system have been realized.

When I went to book my trip from Lamy to San Diego under the old system, I could not. We were planning to leave on July 4th which is a blackout day on the old system. So I booked the return trip on the old and figured going one way on the new would not be too bad. The calculator told me it would be around 33,000 instead of just 30,000 (two roomettes).

Now the new system. First off, the website apparently still cannot let you book anything with a transfer using points. So I plugged in Lamy to Los Angeles on July 4th. It is showing 59,340 for $860 ticket cost. That is TWICE as much as the calculator showed. I could go round trip for that amount!

Apparently, there is a huge point increase on what use to be blackout days. On July 5th, where the cost is actually MORE ($994), the point cost is only 34,293.

This is really killing all the plans I have made. Sure would have been nice if they had disclosed this HUGE points markup that would happen on some blackout dates.


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

Something is wrong there, if the award travel is revenue-based at 34.5 points per dollar. This would warrant a call to AGR for clarification. But first, I would enter the information again and make sure there was no mistake in interpreting the output, such as it really being for a trip with a transfer or misreading the number of points required.


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

willem said:


> Something is wrong there, if the award travel is revenue-based at 34.5 points per dollar. This would warrant a call to AGR for clarification. But first, I would enter the information again and make sure there was no mistake in interpreting the output, such as it really being for a trip with a transfer or misreading the number of points required.


Apparently, (and other have told be this should have been obvious), they artificially jack up the points costs on what was previously blackout dates.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Jan 24, 2016)

See this on FlyerTalk. It may be a computer glitch

http://www.flyertalk...ml#post26071141


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

Could you post your exact itinerary? I just asked amtrak.com for a reservation from Lamy to Los Angeles on July 04 for two adults in two roomettes, and it asked for 48,162 points. It offered Lamy to San Diego for two adults in two bedrooms (not roomettes) for 36,639 points. I'd suggest booking two bedrooms ASAP.

Yes, for two adults in two roomettes, it said call for price, but that became moot once it offered the bedroom price.


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

When I view the screenshot I just posted, the point value is off-screen and I cannot scroll to it. Am I doing something wrong?

Here is the same screen with different cropping.


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

I did happen upon the lower points value for two bedrooms which I have been thinking about jumping on. I was hoping to talk to someone before just to check on roomette prices but have been on hold now 54 minutes.


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

Good. I'll suspend my efforts to post an image that includes all the relevant information.


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

Went ahead and tried to book the bedrooms but got an error when I submitted the final page.



> *We are unable to complete this redemption reservation on Amtrak.com*


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

printman2000 said:


> Went ahead and tried to book the bedrooms but got an error when I submitted the final page.
> 
> 
> 
> > *We are unable to complete this redemption reservation on Amtrak.com*


Tried again and got it to go through. More points that I wanted/planned to spend but oh well.


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

It sounds like there are teething problems at amtrak.com.

Did you get the bedrooms?


----------



## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

willem said:


> It sounds like there are teething problems at amtrak.com.
> 
> Did you get the bedrooms?


Yes. Still about 16,000 more points than I planned to spend. They did not even assign them as ones that can open up into a suite. May call at some point and see if they will change one.


----------



## RickIronton (Jan 29, 2016)

I checked last month for a Denver to Tampa roomette and it was 20,000 points.

Today the same itinerary is 42,000 points.

I should have booked last month before the new system took effect, which I think has diminished accumulated points by half!

It's quite a points hike, none of which is in the loyal customers favor.

Instead of increasing customers, they seem to be intent on running us off!


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 29, 2016)

Another Long Distance Whiner!

You should be glad that the NEC and others on Corridors with Biz Class get all the goodies on the New and "Enhanced" AGR2.0!

A 50% Devaluation of points for decreased service and amenities isn't that bad a deal, just ask those defending this bait and switch scam!

Those out in Flyover Country with only LD Service? Let them eat Cake!


----------



## jis (Jan 29, 2016)

Actually Florida to New York LD service often comes out better than even in AGR 2.0 too. That is why you don't see me complaining as loudly as I would otherwise. Also New York to Chicago comes out spectacularly better quite often too.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 29, 2016)

jis--

What have you found that is good on Florida to New York? I looked up points on the Silver Meteor for a date in April, WPK to TRE, and it was about 21,000 points for a roomette and about 26,000 for a bedroom. So I think that's a lot more than the roomette used to be, but just a bit more than the bedroom used to be?

Of course, if you're looking up the poor Star as Amtrak tears it apart and pretty much makes it the equivalent of depressing commuter rail (yes, I know I'm over-emoting, but I loved that train  ), I imagine it would be fewer points.

Also, which NY to Chicago train? I have not done that yet, primarily because they've all been too expensive.


----------



## City of Miami (Jan 29, 2016)

willem said:


> It sounds like there are teething problems at amtrak.com.


Yes, there are. I had one this morning when I tried to book a trip on the Silver Star. The price in points and/or dollars on the website was quite a bit less than what the agent could see on her screen. Finally when a supervisor actually logged on to the website with my credentials and saw what I saw, he gave me the published price which the "I'm only an agent"s had denied me as impossible. That had been the price for weeks now so I don't think it was a result of the new AGR. I think probably it was a result of the adjustment in price when they decided the diner would not be back in March. It was interesting to hear the supervisor and agent struggling with the computer trying to get the program to do what they wanted. It looks like ultimately they sold the ticket at their price and then gave a manual refund of points to make up the difference. Whatever. They have my sympathies....must be a tough week at AGR.

Oh, and the price is more than 3K points less than the 15K for the same old 1-zone trip.


----------



## Anderson (Jan 29, 2016)

jis said:


> Actually Florida to New York LD service often comes out better than even in AGR 2.0 too. That is why you don't see me complaining as loudly as I would otherwise. Also New York to Chicago comes out spectacularly better quite often too.


The Star is now cheaper, but with due (dis)respect to Amtrak the "old" Star pricing (e.g. the "full" 15K roomette price) was implicitly based upon having full meal service available (on _every_ other train with sleeper space some significant form of meal is included; on the Star you don't even get a voucher in the cafe). Had the devaluation not been in the works I suspect an award price differential would have emerged between the two, at _least_ after the difference became permanent.


----------



## jis (Jan 29, 2016)

I guess my lack of need for a Diner for essentially one night service is showing  Really I simply don't care much to pay several hundred dollars more to have the privilege of sitting in the Diner a couple of times.

My preference would have been to separate the Sleeper transport price from the food price and let those that want to spend on the Diner do so. The Star situation is a bad way of achieving the separation, but trust Amtrak to choose the bad way given a choice, unfortunately.

Also my typical travel is from KIS/ORL to WAS, which is what I was commenting about. I am sure there are other city pairs separated by longer distances where my observation does not hold true. Also it is quite pointless speculating what coulda/shoulda/woulda happened if AGR 2.0 didn't.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 30, 2016)

Nailed it as usual jis!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 30, 2016)

jis said:


> My preference would have been to separate the Sleeper transport price from the food price and let those that want to spend on the Diner do so. The Star situation is a bad way of achieving the separation, but trust Amtrak to choose the bad way given a choice, unfortunately.


jis, I echo Bob Dylan--you've nailed it. I think I was most upset at not being given the logical choice to have a diner as an option. I also wish they would stop saying they've lowered the price--through comparing prices, I got a sleeper on the Star (with meals) for several years for about the same price they are charging now without them.

The one way I might take the Star is if the travel time is when I wouldn't be eating anyway--say WPK to ALX, getting a nice meal in WPK before the evening departure from WPK (getting an extra half day in WPK without paying for another hotel night), bringing fruit and a muffin for the morning, and then having a late lunch at ALX.


----------



## Anderson (Jan 30, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > My preference would have been to separate the Sleeper transport price from the food price and let those that want to spend on the Diner do so. The Star situation is a bad way of achieving the separation, but trust Amtrak to choose the bad way given a choice, unfortunately.
> ...


Oh, I agree. Basically, northbound the Star is acceptable since the WPK/DLD times are fairly late and dinner can be arranged before departure (when leaving from DLD I'd often grab something quick if the train was more than a few minutes late). Southbound, not so much since it leaves RVR at about 1700. Worth noting, if the SB Meteor and Star switched amenities either would be acceptable; as it is, I've got the worst of both worlds: I can either be on a train with no diner at dinner (that's the killer for me...a cup of noodles is fine for a late-night snack, but it doesn't cut it as a full meal) for an overnight trip _or_ I can be on a train _with_ a diner but board post-dinnertime. Cost notwithstanding it's enough for me to toy with going to RVR and catching a train to ALX so I can take the Meteor from there.

I don't care if the meal is "included" as long as it is _available_.

Also worth noting: The Star is generally _more_ than acceptable as a NYP-RVR train southbound as it's basically a fancied-up Regional where I can swap a seat for a bunk and crash, work, or generally not be bothered as I desire. Northbound that gets touchy since you're quite easily running over lunch _and_ dinner periods if the train isn't on time, though at least in that case there's a good deli about two blocks from RVR where I can cover lunch with a meat pie and some hummus and chips.


----------



## neroden (Jan 30, 2016)

jis said:


> Actually Florida to New York LD service often comes out better than even in AGR 2.0 too. That is why you don't see me complaining as loudly as I would otherwise. Also New York to Chicago comes out spectacularly better quite often too.


NY to Chicago was such an exceptionally bad deal under AGR 1.0 that I was doing things like "redeem for Chicago-LA, pay cash for NY-Chicago".


----------



## Train2104 (Jan 30, 2016)

neroden said:


> NY to Chicago was such an exceptionally bad deal under AGR 1.0 that I was doing things like "redeem for Chicago-LA, pay cash for NY-Chicago".


For Chicago-LA if you're travelling alone in a roomette and taking the Chief it's actually cheaper under the new system in most cases. It's two-person reservations and roundabout routes where the old system really stood out, and Amtrak really has no business encouraging the latter.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 31, 2016)

If I don't mind cutting over to the _*Cap*_ out of Chicago and then to the _*Pennsylvanian*_ in Pittsburgh or the _*NE Regional*_ in Washington, Oklahoma to NYP can be picked up for just under 20,000 Points, a slight savings over 1.0.


----------



## Anderson (Jan 31, 2016)

What bucket(s) are you looking at? I'll concede that in some cases, lowest-bucket might be cheaper (if available)...an old $700-ish NFK-SEA trip comes to mind (the 35k points would have come to $1014). The issue is that the higher buckets...often are the only ones available and can be _far_ more expensive.


----------



## Anderson (Feb 2, 2016)

I've given some more thought to my exchange with Jis, and there's a secondary reason for my dogged patronage of the diner on the Meteor (in particular). If anyone has ever heard of the concept of the "tyranny of small decisions" (I always remember it as the "Train to Ithaca Problem" since the loss of rail service to Ithaca, NY was used as an example of the concept), that's basically what is at stake (and, considering the meal served on 97 out of WAS, at steak) in my mind. Presuming that my SB trip wasn't going to fall over dinner on 91.

Basically, there are cases (and this is a particular one) where I will patronize a service which might nominally exceed my "needs" (e.g. I could get dinner in the station and take it onboard and be similarly nourished) because I want the service to stay in existence (e.g. the ever-present risk of diner service being either slashed back to something akin to horror stories I've heard of past years, or eliminated and replaced with a cafe). I will confess that this "point of philosophy" has gotten my rear end to the dining car on MANY mornings on the Meteor (it was always a bit spottier on the Star) and plays at least some role in preferencing the PPC's food service (and indeed got me to buy several tickets to the wine tasting even though I can hardly stand most wines): I may not absolutely need X, but I place a value on the long-term presence of X and in some respects I'm prepared to "overpay" to preserve X. This doesn't mean I won't seek out value where I can, and obviously there's a limit to this, but it does weigh upon my decision-making process.


----------



## Anderson (Feb 9, 2016)

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/52891-agr-sleeper-reservations-cancellation-policy-rescinded/?p=404729

Anyone remember this little gem? It would seem that jis' gloomy predictions have mostly played out regarding AGR. I'm just glad we beat the bastards back for a few years, though as I noted on FT the answer this time was just to lie to our faces.


----------



## crescent2 (Feb 13, 2016)

Anderson said:


> http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/52891-agr-sleeper-reservations-cancellation-policy-rescinded/?p=404729


The above was one time AGR actually listened to their customers and decided to rescind an unreasonably harsh policy change. :hi:

I'd forgotten about all that and enjoyed rereading through the thread.


----------

