# Thoughts on the Sunset Limited, and being proactive vs. reactive



## DesertDude (May 21, 2016)

Like many other AU members, I'm glad to see that funds are being committed to rehabilitating the Southwest Chief route. The SWC was facing an existential threat, and enough people stepped up to the plate to keep the train on the Raton Pass route. This is remarkable, given the small population base between Lamy and Garden City. I hope that everything goes as planned, and that Amtrak can serve those communities for years to come.

That being said, I worry more now about the Sunset Limited. I won't rehash all of the SL's problems here as many other threads on this forum already have. But I will say that in any sane world, the Sunset Limited from LAX to NOL would be a very successful train (and here I'm not even talking about restoring the train NOL-FL). If you count Phoenix, the SL serves 4 of the 7 largest cities in the U.S. along with several other large metros (New Orleans, El Paso, Tucson, and the Inland Empire). This route is overflowing with retirees who have time for train travel. Yet it still only runs 3 times a week, serves San Antonio at an ungodly hour, and annoyingly bypasses Phoenix and Las Cruces. These factors, among others, hurt the train's performance and make it an easier target for anti-rail politicians.

Although the SL is arguably one of the most endangered Amtrak routes, I can't find an advocacy group for the SL on Facebook or elsewhere (I'm not counting the gulf coast train advocacy group(s)). It would be nice if people were fighting hard to make the SL better BEFORE it faces a major existential threat. If we wait until the "powers that be" consider discontinuing the train, we may not be as lucky as those who've fought for the SWC.


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## Anthony V (May 24, 2016)

I believe the Sunset Limited should directly serve Phoenix again to increase ridership. It was rerouted away from PHX in 1996 because UP downgraded the West Line after they bought the Southern Pacific. To increase the chances of successfully bringing the Sunset back to Phoenix, we need to form a "Sunset Limited to Phoenix Coalition" that would advocate along similar lines (and using similar techniques) that the Amtrak Southwest Chief Coalition used that resulted in it's success in saving the present route of the SWC. The coalition's mission would be to build support for and get politicians on board to seek funds for rehabilitation of the West Line and it's long-term maintenance, and thus allow the SL to start serving the Valley of the Sun directly again.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 24, 2016)

Anthony V said:


> I believe the Sunset Limited should directly serve Phoenix again to increase ridership. It was rerouted away from PHX in 1996 because UP downgraded the West Line after they bought the Southern Pacific. To increase the chances of successfully bringing the Sunset back to Phoenix, we need to form a "Sunset Limited to Phoenix Coalition" that would advocate along similar lines (and using similar techniques) that the Amtrak Southwest Chief Coalition used that resulted in it's success in saving the present route of the SWC. The coalition's mission would be to build support for and get politicians on board to seek funds for rehabilitation of the West Line and it's long-term maintenance, and thus allow the SL to start serving the Valley of the Sun directly again.


You will need to find a different set of politicians. The ones running the Arizona state government believe in cars, and also deeply believe that passenger trains are evil socialistic boondoggles. And they believe this stuff with an ideological, cult-like passion. Good luck.


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## Palmetto (May 24, 2016)

If Amtrak were truly interested in serving Phoenix directly, I supposed they could've purchased the line from the UP. Was that ever discussed between the two parties? The precedent, of course, is Amtrak's purchase of a portion of the Michigan Line and the Post Road branch in New York.


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## bretton88 (May 24, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> Anthony V said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the Sunset Limited should directly serve Phoenix again to increase ridership. It was rerouted away from PHX in 1996 because UP downgraded the West Line after they bought the Southern Pacific. To increase the chances of successfully bringing the Sunset back to Phoenix, we need to form a "Sunset Limited to Phoenix Coalition" that would advocate along similar lines (and using similar techniques) that the Amtrak Southwest Chief Coalition used that resulted in it's success in saving the present route of the SWC. The coalition's mission would be to build support for and get politicians on board to seek funds for rehabilitation of the West Line and it's long-term maintenance, and thus allow the SL to start serving the Valley of the Sun directly again.
> ...


I don't think that's entirely the case. Phoenix has a developing light rail system, and the Arizona DOT has looked into several options for commuter rail to Tuscon. The problem for the Sunset Limited is there is very little between Phoenix and Yuma so it's never going to be very high on Arizona's priority list. It's not low hanging fruit either anymore since the UP has let the branch rot away, it's become expensive to restore it, especially for one Tri-weekly train.


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## CCC1007 (May 24, 2016)

bretton88 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
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> > Anthony V said:
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There is a highway in the area that has a natural path for a railroad track to be laid next to it, and it would be about 20 miles of new track, and a rebuild of about 50 miles of track to create a good reroute for Amtrak to come back to Phoenix.


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## bretton88 (May 24, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> bretton88 said:
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> > WoodyinNYC said:
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Per the Arizona Rail Plan, it would cost roughly 75$ million because the UP is also asking the state to purchase the corridor (Phoenix to the Cattle Company). Amtrak estimates 30 million for just the rail rehab to re-open the corridor. While not wildly expensive, hard to justify for a Tri-weekly train plus the states ROW wouldnt make it to Yuma so even more costs would probably arise to make the corridor useful. Meanwhile Phoenix to Tuscon is much higher priority for ADOT.


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## DesertDude (May 24, 2016)

I see Bretton88's point. Purely from a state perspective, rehabbing the corridor for passenger rail wouldn't make as much sense. But imagine if on a daily basis, you could take an overnight train from LA to Phoenix and vice versa. I'm looking at a SL timetable from 1995, which shows the eastbound SL leaving LA at 10:30 at night, and arriving in Phoenix at 7:08 the next morning. How perfect is that? That's the kind of setup that could attract passengers who normally wouldn't take Amtrak. And even if there are plenty of flights between Sky Harbor and LA area airports, I bet both metros have enough people who dislike flying to support a daily over-night service. And I don't have to mention the better connection options via LA Union Station vs. the airport.


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## CCC1007 (May 24, 2016)

Where's that like button...


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## Bob Dylan (May 24, 2016)

Back in the real World there will be a Daily Sunset Ltd. /Texas Eagle and a New Station will be built in Maricopa, and hopefully there will also be available Shuttle transportation started between Maricopa and Phoenix.

Arizona is represented by Senator John McCain who famously said that " Amtrak doesn't serve my State!"

Plenty of other know nothings in Public Office in Arizona also!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 25, 2016)

UP want money for there right of way? Give them a dollar.

Why do railroads get to demand millions for a bike path? Time to end this rip-off.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 25, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Arizona is represented by Senator John McCain who famously said that "Amtrak doesn't serve my State!"


He was probably thinking of the 3-days-a-week _Sunset Ltd_, which doesn't quite reach McCain's home city in Phoenix.

McCain just completely forgot about the daily _Southwest Chief_, which serves Flagstaff (Grand Canyon), but not Phoenix.

A funny election ahead, and one real possible result would be a President Trump who doesn't give shucks about John McCain's opinion on anything.


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## neroden (May 25, 2016)

bretton88 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> > You will need to find a different set of politicians. The ones running the Arizona state government believe in cars, and also deeply believe that passenger trains are evil socialistic boondoggles. And they believe this stuff with an ideological, cult-like passion. Good luck.
> ...


Unfortunately, I think Woody is correct about the state politicians in Arizona. They've shown no signs of funding the Tucson-Phoenix route, or the Grand Avenue route heading west of Phoenix, or anything -- and all these projects have been on the back burner for 20 years.
However, Phoenix and Tucson are another matter. Both are gung-ho pro-rail, including most of the suburbs. I would expect that *eventually* this will filter up to the state legislature (it just hasn't happened yet) at which point we could see a sea change in Arizona state political attitudes towards rail. Importantly, Arizona was recently de-gerrymandered by ballot initiative and this has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, so once that kicks in, it's more likely that the people of Phoenix will have the voice they ought to.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 25, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> UP want money for there right of way? Give them a dollar.
> 
> Why do railroads get to demand millions for a bike path? Time to end this rip-off.


When highways are expanded, or runways extended, nobody imagines not paying for the needed property.

Pay the UP a fair price for the route, or lease it to spread the cost over many years. But let's get on with it.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 25, 2016)

DesertDude said:


> I see Bretton88's point. Purely from a state perspective, rehabbing the corridor for passenger rail wouldn't make as much sense. But imagine if on a daily basis, you could take an overnight train from LA to Phoenix and vice versa. I'm looking at a SL timetable from 1995, which shows the eastbound SL leaving LA at 10:30 at night, and arriving in Phoenix at 7:08 the next morning. How perfect is that? That's the kind of setup that could attract passengers who normally wouldn't take Amtrak. And even if there are plenty of flights between Sky Harbor and LA area airports, I bet both metros have enough people who dislike flying to support a daily over-night service. And I don't have to mention the better connection options via LA Union Station vs. the airport.


Kind of why the concept/philosophy of Amtrak/Congress passing financial responsibilities to the states hurts Amtrak/train service in general. The type of "red eye" service mentioned here is great. In theory a state should benefit from paying for trains that go outside of their borders as it brings in visitors from other states. I think from Arizona's point of view they'd be paying more for Arizona residents to go to California than the other way around but certainly they should be able to attract some visitors from California. But to have this desired service either Amtrak/Congress needs to spend some money to improve service nationally or states need to work together to improve service across state borders.


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## jis (May 25, 2016)

Oddly enough, a prime example of this is the North East Corridor. The feds spends a pile of money to maintain the railroad to runs its own trains. The states are quite happy to add their own trains, in much larger numbers than the feds trains leasing running slots (essentially) on the common infrastructure.

While on the NEC the feds either actually own quite a bit of it, or are contracted to provide maintenance and dispatching services on state property, other models are possible. For example a common block leasing of infrastructure which is then used some by feds and some by states might make the barrier for addition of service lower. Unfortunately the lack of a tradition of such arrangements makes the barrier to setting up the first one rather high so far.


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## neroden (May 27, 2016)

We're seeing cooperation between states in New England (Maine/Massachusetts, Vermont/Massachusetts/Connecticut, Massachusetts/Rhode Island, Connecticut/Rhode Island, New York/Connecticut, New York/Vermont... you can figure out which routes I'm talking about).

I think this sort of cooperation is easier once the states own the tracks. Of course New Hampshire has kind of a bad attitude and hasn't cooperated, but individual cities have.


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## jis (May 28, 2016)

There have been long standing collaborations between NJ and NY, NJ and PA, PA and DE, all involving their own transit agencies. In addition each had and has complex relationship with Amtrak.


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## Lonestar648 (May 28, 2016)

On John McCain, a long time ago, he said if a person didn't want to fly or go by car, they didn't need to be traveling. McCain, to me, has always had a strong dislike for passenger rail. With Phoenix a major air hub, I imagine his election fund has been well lined by the airline(s).

Before anything could be justified, the SL/TE CHI/LAX needs to be daily.


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## Anthony V (Jun 2, 2016)

bretton88 said:


> CCC1007 said:
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> 
> > bretton88 said:
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The main reason nobody's interested in bringing the SL back to Phoenix right now is because the train only runs 3x/week, which, in both politicians' and Amtrak's eyes, is no incentive to justify the costs of keeping the West Line open. Only if and when the Sunset goes daily, might there be more interest in rehabbing the West Line and bringing the SL back into Downtown Phoenix. OTOH, if you look at the history of the West Line, you will learn that it was built primarily with passenger trains in mind, so freight traffic was very limited on the line for most of its history. By 1996, however, it became clear that it was not worth it to anybody to keep the deteriorating line open for one 3x/weekly passenger train. If the Sunset was running daily back then, there might have been more desire to keep the line open and Amtrak would've never stopped going through Phoenix. Further, UP would surely rather have Amtrak be on the West Line and serve Phoenix as it would keep Amtrak off more of UP's busy transcontinental Sunset Route.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 2, 2016)

Get NARP to start a campaign for a daily Sunset. They already did for the other non daily so they should for the Sunset as well.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 9, 2016)

Over three months and still no mention of a daily Sunset Limited campaign.

People beg for a daily Cardinal. But if you think about it, Chicago/Indianapolis has the Hoosier State which combines with the Cardinal to provide a daily train between CHI and IND. And CVS to NYP doesn't have a daily Cardinal but has 176/156 and the Crescent. So in reality making the Cardinal daily means providing daily service between CVS and IND as the ends are already covered. Meanwhile, I don't believe any portion of the SL is daily and the only cities that have daily service are those that have other trains (LAX, SAS, NOL, I can't think of any others).

NARP needs to get on the ball and give equal time to both trains. Or they are doing what everyone here yells at me for ... pitting trains vs. trains. Why is one train worthy of a campaign and not the other?


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## jis (Sep 9, 2016)

NARP is not an individual. All work is done by individuals. As long as there is no individual or group of individuals willing to drive a campaign, who in NARP is exactly going to do it? The CEO?

The difference is that there are a bunch of passionate folks who are willing to spend time and energy on the Cardinal and they started the footwork and got NARP to endorse their activity. There is not any vocal individual or group who feel passionate enough about the Sunset at the present time. There is no activity on the ground and therefore nothing is happening. That is typically how organizations work. Wherever there is the squeakiest bunch of people, they get the attention.

There is no pitting of one train against another. You are the only real expert at that.


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