# detroit to ann-arbor commuter rail



## amtrakwolverine

semcog is a proposed commuter rail that will run from detroit to Ann Arbor using existing rails. stops include the detroit amtrak station derborn among others. currently all detroit has is the DPM(Detroit people mover) and intercity buses.

http://www.semcog.org/AADD.aspx

heres a quick time video on it.

http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/Progra...AAtoDetroit.mov

no word on a start up date.

another train to ride


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## zoltan

I'm all for more commuter rail. Really, commuter rail doesn't do that much for increasing access to jobs, as probably the majority of users own cars, and often drive them to the stations, as walking distance access to commuter rail usually isn't that great, and it tends to benefit those in the professions, working regular 9-5 hours. However, in terms of mitigating environmental damage and congestion by getting cars off the roads, it's the cheapest and easiest solution, one that focuses on the heaviest flows at the busiest times, one that uses existing technology, and one that is tried and tested, and proven to be effective. So I'll be happy if the present proliferation of systems and the present growth of existing systems continues.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan

I hope 1 day it will happen more and more people in Michigan are riding the trains.


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## birdy

zoltan said:


> I'm all for more commuter rail. Really, commuter rail doesn't do that much for increasing access to jobs, as probably the majority of users own cars, and often drive them to the stations, as walking distance access to commuter rail usually isn't that great, and it tends to benefit those in the professions, working regular 9-5 hours. However, in terms of mitigating environmental damage and congestion by getting cars off the roads, it's the cheapest and easiest solution, one that focuses on the heaviest flows at the busiest times, one that uses existing technology, and one that is tried and tested, and proven to be effective. So I'll be happy if the present proliferation of systems and the present growth of existing systems continues.


I agree. I say get the meat in the seats any which way you can. That means having more than the minimum number of cars, well padded comfortable chairs and even lounge cars to exploit the comfort advantage of rail. That also means building parking garages for the commuters, instead of lecturing the customers on how they shouldn't be hypocrites by driving their cars to the rail station, which is how the New Mexico Rail Runner is handling the problem.

The parking lots need to be available but as unsubsidized as possible compared to the rail. I don't have a problem with a guy driving his car to the train station, as long as he pays full freight for his parking. (For the guy who carpools, I'd give him a discount). I'm with you Zoltan, the perfect is the enemy of the good.


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## Green Maned Lion

The guy who carpools gets a discount by either splitting the cost, or alternating it based on who is driving. Why give him more?


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## birdy

Green Maned Lion said:


> The guy who carpools gets a discount by either splitting the cost, or alternating it based on who is driving. Why give him more?


Well, to minimize the number of parking places that need to be built, without externalizing the cost on the surrounding neighborhood. Also, to maximize the huge advantage rail has at the margin compared to almost any other form of transportation. The cost of carrying one extra passenger on rail is almost nil.


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## Green Maned Lion

But you aren't explaining why the inherrent cost savings are not sufficient.


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## Guest_birdy_*

Green Maned Lion said:


> But you aren't explaining why the inherrent cost savings are not sufficient.


Well, I suppose it depends on what constitutes "sufficient" in real life. My supposition is that it requires more than the normal sharing of cost to get this to happen, otherwise we would see more people carpooling than we do.

My view is that the goal should be to minimize capital investment that is not directly mass transit (i.e. efficiency) oriented. The parking garage is a necessary evil. The typical commuter has to be reasonably assured that he can find parking, otherwise, the uncertainty of being able to get to the station on time, or having his spouse drive him to the station drives up the cost of using the system.

At the same time, excessive investment in parking at 7G per space cuts against the whole idea of mass transit. So you compromise by building parking, but you price it high enough so that a space is almost always available for the single driver, but so that there is significant incentive for multiple riders in vehicles. No need for an explicit subsidy. Add a buck or two to the rate charged to the solo driver to mitigate the discount given to the carpooler.

You can amplify this effect by exploiting the very small marginal cost of adding another rail passenger. Since the vast majority of the costs of the rail are fixed, you can afford to price the rail aggressively for marginal riders, to add as many marginal riders as possible. If it were me, I'd hand the driver of the car a free ticket if he showed up at the garage with two other riders.

So, when the smoke clears, your 750 space 6 million dollar garage accounts for maybe 1200 passengers on the train, with maybe 250 passes handed out, in return for another 250 passengers on the train who would not otherwise be there but for their recruitment by the driver.


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## amtrakwolverine

All cities on new Ann Arbor to Detroit rail line pining for new depots

http://www.pressandguide.com/stories/12170...081217004.shtml


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## trainfan

I think if Detroit is ever going to come back it needs a world class light rail system! The people mover

just dosnt do it!!! I think the old way of thinking was " We build cars why do we need public transport"

Trainfan


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## amtrakwolverine

there have been talks about expanding the people mover.


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## Joel N. Weber II

KISS_ALIVE said:


> All cities on new Ann Arbor to Detroit rail line pining for new depots
> http://www.pressandguide.com/stories/12170...081217004.shtml


The Dearborn station location probably precludes an airport station, given that a Detroit to Ann Arbor train either will go past that Dearborn station, or it will go past the airport, or it will do something rather that will make it painfully slow for trips from Ann Arbor to downtown Detroit. I guess it would be possible to have half the Ann Arbor to Detroit trains to go via the airport and half via the Dearborn station, or something.


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## Elizabeth

Ann Arbor is, I think, one of the few cities in Michigan that may experience something of job growth in the next few years, since we're going heavily into the health care/"life sciences" industry. The challenge will continue to be, how to find parking for the thousands of commuters to those jobs, PLUS the students who live here (with cars), PLUS the regular day-t-day area commercial traffic, etc. Add snow (like this weekend) and you've got tough driving situations on debatable roadways (I'm thinking US-23, primarliy, at which the WALLI train is targeted).

Getting people to/from DTX seems like a no-brainer, but you've got to make a connection in Dearborn and then shuttle, or detrain people near the NS crossing at Middlebelt, Michigan, etc., near Romulus. (Maybe Wayne would be a better connection location.)

In the current TRAINS magazine there's an article on light rail allocations for various cities:

Honolulu, 3.7 billion for 20 miles of elevated rail;

Seattle, 17.8 billion over 20 years for a 36-mile light rail system;

California, 86 million annually for this & that, incl. a new 70-mile commuter systm north of SF;

and New Mexico, 27 million annually to support the Rail Runner

(February TRAINS p.26)

In Michigan, our billions are going to loans to the auto industry. I'm not an auto industry critic -- both sides of my family came to Michigan in the 20s and made a life here because of Ford and GM. But it sure would be nice to be able to hop on the "T" into town and see the Tigers or the Lions, have dinner, and get home. And I imagine several folks might find tailgating at the Big House a little more amenable if they didn't have to drive here and park.

(Btw, in the old days, a football DID stop at Michigan Stadium, at Ferry Field.)


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## amtrakwolverine

a little off topic but i was told that a long time ago they wanted to put a subway in but couldn't do it for some reason. anyone got any info on that.


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## birdy

Build it. You won't regret it. Railrunner in puny little New Mexico is about as marginal a project as you could see, but its wildly successful. The free pass period isn't over for Santa Fe, so they had to strand a couple of hundred passengers in Albuquerque last Saturday afternoon. A couple of things I noticed:

1. Train doesn't have to be faster than car. Just competitive in terms of speed.

2. Thoughtful planning of connections at terminals helps with ridership a lot.

3. A rock-solid connection to the airport is the anchor to the system.

4. Comfort is a big selling point for the train. Don't short-change it by striving to pack them in like sardines.

5. Plan for the contingency of success. Railrunner has no practical way to collect the fares from the many riders. The two conductors are overwhelmed.

6. Standard-gauge is the way to go if your topography permits.


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## Joel N. Weber II

birdy said:


> 6. Standard-gauge is the way to go if your topography permits.


Are you claiming BART would have been better off with a narrower gauge than was actually used?


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## birdy

Joel N. Weber II said:


> birdy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Standard-gauge is the way to go if your topography permits.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming BART would have been better off with a narrower gauge than was actually used?
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying don't use light rail where standard gauge rail works, because of the scalability advantage of standard gauge. I don't want to call it " heavy rail", because I know that there is a weird,yet official, definition of what constitutes light rail that can encompass what most people consider to be full size trains.

By the way, the'free' period has been pretty pernicious. They promised three months, so now the operators have painted themselves into a corner. It would have been better had they had, say, three days free period and then an indeterminate "reduced fare" period where they could have charged enough to keep the train from stranding people at the station, which creates the worst possible scenario: ticked off passengers, no revenues, no real idea as to where the demand lies. The strandings took place Saturday. One might think that this would be an indication that there is more weekend demand than expected and that perhaps service should be offered on Sunday. (The line held a photography contest and someone entered a picture of a bald eagle flying by the train). But most of the passengers were joy-riders, so who knows? To add insult to injury, some of the stranded passengers of course, were on the Albuquerque side of the line, where there was no free fare. Those fare-payers had the privilege of paying for a ticket and then getting left on the platform. Anyway, even if the system charged the Santa Fe passengers $2 a ticket, certainly a token amount, they would collect maybe half a million dollars during the three month trial run period. I figure the system burns maybe $4,000 of diesel a day, so they ought to at least try and recover that, even during the trial period.

On the plus side, the promoters evidently bought a reasonable amount of rolling stock, so they have a fair amount of latitude to adjust service.

Finally, a small matter, but the livery of the Railrunner (locomotive is the head of the roadrunner, cars, are the body and tail) is the best ever since the Santa Fe (the railroad, I mean) in War Bonnet livery. We have to look at it for the next fifty years, so I'm glad they paid a couple of bucks to have someone design something nice.


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## George Harris

birdy said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> birdy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Standard-gauge is the way to go if your topography permits.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming BART would have been better off with a narrower gauge than was actually used?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm saying don't use light rail where standard gauge rail works, because of the scalability advantage of standard gauge. I don't want to call it " heavy rail", because I know that there is a weird,yet official, definition of what constitutes light rail that can encompass what most people consider to be full size trains.
Click to expand...

Birdy,

I don't quite know what you are thinking here, but I don't think it is track gauge.

Most light rail system tracks in this country are built at standard gauge. (4'-8 1/2") Generally, the axle load on these cars is in the same range as that of the "heavy rail" systems such as WMATA, which is also built at standard gauge.

BART is a world of its own, track gauge is 5'-6", but the axle load of their cars is very light.

By the way, 5'-6" is the same as the Indian broad gauge system.


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## AlanB

Actually Light Rail refers more to the capacity of the rail car to carry passengers, as in they carry a lighter load than a traditional heavy rail car. Additionally light rail systems can interact with traffic on city streets. Heavy rail on the other hand typically does not have grade crossings, never runs in a traffic lane, and is generally a closed system in that it does not interact with any other trains. NYC's subway, Chicago's El, LA's subway, and BART are all examples of heavy rail.


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## Joel N. Weber II

AlanB said:


> Actually Light Rail refers more to the capacity of the rail car to carry passengers, as in they carry a lighter load than a traditional heavy rail car. Additionally light rail systems can interact with traffic on city streets. Heavy rail on the other hand typically does not have grade crossings, never runs in a traffic lane, and is generally a closed system in that it does not interact with any other trains. NYC's subway, Chicago's El, LA's subway, and BART are all examples of heavy rail.


I think that gets into whose definitions you believe. IIRC, the Federal Transit Administration divides things into commuter rail (anything that has ordinary track connections that can be used to move a whole train at once onto the tracks of a traditional freight railroad will be in this category), heavy rail, and light rail, as Alan describes. I believe the Federal Railroad Administration defines heavy rail as anything that interconnects with the freight railroads and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of their rules, and light rail as the various forms of isolated passenger only tracks.


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## George Harris

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Light Rail refers more to the capacity of the rail car to carry passengers, as in they carry a lighter load than a traditional heavy rail car. Additionally light rail systems can interact with traffic on city streets. Heavy rail on the other hand typically does not have grade crossings, never runs in a traffic lane, and is generally a closed system in that it does not interact with any other trains. NYC's subway, Chicago's El, LA's subway, and BART are all examples of heavy rail.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that gets into whose definitions you believe. IIRC, the Federal Transit Administration divides things into commuter rail (anything that has ordinary track connections that can be used to move a whole train at once onto the tracks of a traditional freight railroad will be in this category), heavy rail, and light rail, as Alan describes. I believe the Federal Railroad Administration defines heavy rail as anything that interconnects with the freight railroads and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of their rules, and light rail as the various forms of isolated passenger only tracks.
Click to expand...

Alan has it right.

As to, "the Federal Railroad Administration defines heavy rail as anything that interconnects with the freight railroads": Not correct.


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## amtrakwolverine

some more info on this. there's a video on it http://www.semcog.org/AADD.aspx



> MDOT has entered into a contract with Great Lakes Central Railroad for the leasing and refurbishing of the rail cars. The first train set is expected to be delivered in late November of 2009 with the remainder being delivered in mid-2010 for safety and performance testing prior to beginning service.


PDF file http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/Progra...ft%20Update.pdf


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## DET63

Just to confuse issues more:



> The term *heavy rail* can refer to:
> *In railway infrastructure:*
> 
> 
> The structures and vehicles of railways not falling under the description of trams, light rail, medium capacity system, or rapid transit ("metro").
> 
> 
> *In passenger railway terminology:*
> 
> _Main article: _
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_terminology_Passenger rail terminology_
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_terminology
> 
> 
> 
> An inter-city rail or commuter rail network
> 
> A rapid transit system (North America)


Wikipedia


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## amtrakwolverine

another update. they hope to have the first train set by november. there using rebuilt coaches.

http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/Progra...ft%20Update.pdf


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## Phila 30th St

I hope this works. It would be nice for carless people in Ann Arbor to be able to get to Detroit (and maybe even Metro Airport) easier.


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## amtrakwolverine

another update on progress.

http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/Progra..._A2D2Update.pdf

basically a RFP should be issued within the next couple weeks for locomotives(used locos anyway)

train schedules should be up by April and by that time feeder bus schedules will be worked to deliver passengers to there destination.


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## Eric S

Any idea what sort of equipment (cars, locomotives) they plan to use? One of the updates mentioned getting refurbished equipment from Great Lakes Central Railroad; what cars or locomotives does GLC own?


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## amtrakwolverine

Another update. The RFP was issued for locomotives and Michigan was awarded 40 million of the 833 requested.

http://www.semcog.org/AADRailRecentUpdate.aspx (PDF FILE)

http://www.semcog.org/AADRailRecentUpdate.aspx


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## amtrakwolverine

JUNE UPDATE

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2June2010UpdateTEST.aspx

looks like the locomotive might be F59PH and cars similar to those used on Chicago's METRA

and they will have manual wheel chair lifts in each car.


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## PerRock

amtrakwolverine said:


> JUNE UPDATE
> http://www.semcog.org/A2D2June2010UpdateTEST.aspx
> 
> looks like the locomotive might be F59PHI and cars similar to those used on Chicago's METRA
> 
> and they will have manual wheel chair lifts in each car.



the loco pictured is actually a F59PH (not PHI) its a fairly crappy photoshop of one of Metrolink's F59PHs. And the cars from GLC are actual ex-Metra Galley cars....based on the graphic design done on that link I'm quite scared as to what they will come up with as a paint scheme. Their logo for starters looks like it was done in MS Paint.

Maybe I should get my act together and send them my designs 





peter

ps: I should mention that my design was done before they announced the name will be MITrain (that doesn't roll off the tongue that nicely either)


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## Eric S

PerRock said:


> ps: I should mention that my design was done before they announced the name will be MITrain (that doesn't roll off the tongue that nicely either)


I wonder if that is pronounced like "my train" or some other way?


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## PerRock

Eric S said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> ps: I should mention that my design was done before they announced the name will be MITrain (that doesn't roll off the tongue that nicely either)
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if that is pronounced like "my train" or some other way?
Click to expand...

You know I was wondering that as well....

peter


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## rrdude

From their web site, " The actual locomotive will be *stainless steel*, matching the passenger cars.........."

Now I'd like to see THAT again. The old Burlington Zephyr, and what motive power were actually stainless?

Another quote from the same web page. "The trucks are the “wheels” of a rail car............" Really? I thought the "wheels" were the wheels of the rail car?

Two errors on the front page, got my confidence up about SEMCOG!


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## amtrakwolverine

trucks are what the rail car wheels are called.


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## George Harris

A truck is the complete assembly of wheels, axles, side frames, crossmembers, springs, bearings, brake shoes and rigging attached to the, and onything else I have not thought of that is below the point at which the thing is attached to the car body.


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## rrdude

amtrakwolverine said:


> trucks are what the rail car wheels are called.


Wheels r called "wheels", and 4 wheels, or a "wheel-set" r mounted 2 the truck assembly


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## amtrakwolverine

*Detroit-to-Ann Arbor commuter rail on hold; SEMCOG suggests raising gas tax to fund it*



> The highly-anticipated commuter rail line planned to run between Detroit and Ann Arbor appears to be stuck in the station.
> The Detroit News reports the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments today indefinitely suspended the project after coming up $40 million to $50 million short on funding needed to get things rolling.


http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/04/detroit-to-ann_arbor_commuter.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+StatelineorgRss-Michigan+%28Stateline.org+RSS+-+Michigan%29

Nice comments they posted from twitter lol.


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## PerRock

amtrakwolverine said:


> *Detroit-to-Ann Arbor commuter rail on hold; SEMCOG suggests raising gas tax to fund it*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The highly-anticipated commuter rail line planned to run between Detroit and Ann Arbor appears to be stuck in the station.
> The Detroit News reports the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments today indefinitely suspended the project after coming up $40 million to $50 million short on funding needed to get things rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mlive.com...S+-+Michigan%29
> 
> Nice comments they posted from twitter lol.
Click to expand...

I like the comments on the site about the article. 

Hell I'd love to see it come to play, sure use the gas tax!

peter


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## DET63

amtrakwolverine said:


> All cities on new Ann Arbor to Detroit rail line pining for new depots
> 
> http://www.pressandguide.com/stories/12170...081217004.shtml


Broken link.

Would the cities on the proposed line settle for Amshacks, at least for a while? Usually commuter rail stations don't have to be fancy: a (partially) sheltered platform, ticket vending machines, and arrival schedules are usually enough. Nobody is likely to be taking a lot of baggage, so a staffed station with personnel to check luggage is completely unnecessary.


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## jis

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I think that gets into whose definitions you believe. IIRC, the Federal Transit Administration divides things into commuter rail (anything that has ordinary track connections that can be used to move a whole train at once onto the tracks of a traditional freight railroad will be in this category), heavy rail, and light rail, as Alan describes. I believe the Federal Railroad Administration defines heavy rail as anything that interconnects with the freight railroads and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of their rules, and light rail as the various forms of isolated passenger only tracks.


I don't think that in _FRA _terminology, what is call _heavy rail_ generally falls under FRA jurisdiction. Things like NYC Subway, BART, Boston Subway (Red, Orange, Blue) are _heavy rail_ and they are all _FTA _and not _FRA _jurisdiction, and they may only have a notional connection to a regular railway line, but typically don't anymore. There are some _heavy rail_ lines like PATH which for historical reasons are under _FRA _jurisdiction but operate mostly under waivers, and even PATH does not really have a real connection to regular railways anymore.

OTOH, _FRA _jurisdiction lines sometimes have _light rail_ service, e.g. _RiverLINE _in NJ. At present this is done using a technique called _temporal separation_. However the trend seems to be in a direction wherein eventually intermingling of light rail and commuter/freight rail will be allowed (as is general practice in Europe and Japan) provided the signaling and control system provides a feature called _positive train separation_. In this context the term _light rail_ does not include what is traditionally called _tram_ in Europe. It involves only the heavier variety of _light rail_ exemplified by equipment like the _Stadler _cars used on the _RiverLine_.

BTW, _FTA _until now does not have any uniform safety regulation that they enforce. They are in the process of crafting such, much to the consternation of some. The last round of WMATA accidents which were traced to what can charitably called gross negligence is what gave the impetus for this.


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## MattW

Yea, I don't see why a commuter station has to be more than a few bus shelters, a platform, and some ticket machines with maybe a small brick enclosure for a manned ticket window at particularly busy or tourist-busy stations.

The way I see it, the state/feds/whoever should pay for the platform, shelters and ticket machines, and if the municipalities want anything fancier, they pony up the money.


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## AlanB

DET63 said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> All cities on new Ann Arbor to Detroit rail line pining for new depots
> 
> http://www.pressandguide.com/stories/12170...081217004.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> Broken link.
Click to expand...

Not unusual for a link that is more than a year and a half old.


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## PerRock

July 2010 SEMCOG Updates on the service:

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2June2010Update.aspx

And the proposed interior design (the NEED a better graphic designer)

http://www.semcog.org/uploadedImages/MiTrain.jpg

August 2010 Updates (no crappy pictures):

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2UpdateAugust2010.aspx

peter


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## PerRock

September Update; just pictures really.

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2September2010Update.aspx

The Painted Car

peter


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## Shawn Ryu

PerRock said:


> September Update; just pictures really.
> 
> http://www.semcog.or...2010Update.aspx
> 
> The Painted Car
> 
> peter


Ugh, the Metra trains...


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## MattW

I find the Metra trains to be some of the best looking in the country right up there with Amtrak 

Though I do admit, I don't like the SEMCOG paint scheme that much...


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## amtrakwolverine

If the project was canceled due to lack of funding then why are still doing all this work?


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## PerRock

As far as I can tell it wasn't cancelled. One newpaper stated it was and the rest followed suit. There was some early talk about funding issues. But they've secured funding as far I can tell (I think the UofM stepped up and helped fill the gap).

peter


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## me_little_me

birdy said:


> Build it. You won't regret it. Railrunner in puny little New Mexico is about as marginal a project as you could see, but its wildly successful. The free pass period isn't over for Santa Fe, so they had to strand a couple of hundred passengers in Albuquerque last Saturday afternoon. A couple of things I noticed:
> 
> 1. Train doesn't have to be faster than car. Just competitive in terms of speed.
> 
> 2. Thoughtful planning of connections at terminals helps with ridership a lot.
> 
> 3. A rock-solid connection to the airport is the anchor to the system.
> 
> 4. Comfort is a big selling point for the train. Don't short-change it by striving to pack them in like sardines.
> 
> 5. Plan for the contingency of success. Railrunner has no practical way to collect the fares from the many riders. The two conductors are overwhelmed.
> 
> 6. Standard-gauge is the way to go if your topography permits.


7. Have that cool roadrunner cartoon "beep beep" for the doors! It was awesome!


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## Green Maned Lion

Wait one second, damnit. They are using... tri-fold diaphragms and cloth seating for a commuter train...? Are they crazy, or just stupid?


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## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> Wait one second, damnit. They are using... tri-fold diaphragms and cloth seating for a commuter train...? Are they crazy, or just stupid?


They took a survey, Michigan Commuters are more civilized than commuters in other regions, hence the cloth seats. Don't know about the diaphragms....


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## MattW

Um, diaphragms? What's wrong with them? And what other types are there?


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## Green Maned Lion

If Michigan commuters sweat less than us North East types, ok. But the reason for using vinyl for the seats has nothing to do with civility. Amtrak cleans its trains frequently, and exists for providing luxury, such that it is. Therefore, Amtrak is willing to take the expense of constantly replacing seat covers.

Commuter railroads are utilitarian things, not cleaned very often, and the expense of maintaining seats to luxury levels make the politico imbeciles start talking about "money wasting" and "pork". Vinyl lasts longer, and stays useable much longer. How long have the Arrow IIIs on NJT had those ugly brown covers without much replacement? 30 years?

As for the diaphragms, there are three kinds of connecting corridor types used on rail cars in this country.

Various subways, as well as twinned MUs on many eastern railways, have open corridors.

They are completely exposed to the elements, and do not wear out from heavy switching. Perfectly fine on the trains they are used, which have no passenger traffic between those cars, and no reason to have it since they either don't have restrooms at all (Septa, subways), or those restrooms set in the pairs (MNR, LIRR) and thus people use the covered route to the bathroom.

Then there are bumper diaphragms, used on all commuter railroads currently in service. They consist of rubber tubes. They don't wear out much from heavy switching, and provide a modicum of protection from the elements and falling off the train. They allow the occasional passenger to go wandering in search of a bathroom, or to move to certain cars when the entire train doesn't platform at their stations.

Then there are trifold diaphragms, which are large, complicated, and relatively delicate things. They provide almost complete protection from the elements. The downside is they wear out and require maintenance, and also require crew members to connect them manually from the inside. Amtrak uses them- the pass through of passengers between cars on a intercity train is pretty high. Most passengers will leave their normal car at some point during the trains journey. Like the cloth seats, they make sense for intercity trains, given their market and purpose.

On a commuter train, they border on the silly.


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## amtrakwolverine

October Update.

Seams they want amtrak to run the event trains.

http://www.semcog.org/ProgramsProjects.aspx?id=88654


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## PerRock

We have F59PHs. Their actual paint job isn't as bad as the MS Paint drawing...but could be better.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs892.snc4/72579_433168522293_675942293_4991386_5950456_n.jpg

http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19460

peter


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## Shawn Ryu

iI actually like the paint scheme, blue green and white make good combo IMO.


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## amtrakwolverine

These have to be the only 5 digit locomotives out there.


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## PerRock

Shawn Ryu said:


> iI actually like the paint scheme, blue green and white make good combo IMO.


The base of the car is "stainless" not white.

peter


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## Shawn Ryu

PerRock said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> 
> iI actually like the paint scheme, blue green and white make good combo IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> The base of the car is "stainless" not white.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

stll looks ok.


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## saxman

Could this project be back in business?



> Word on Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter rail expected next weekBy Bill Shea
> 
> Organizers of a Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter rail project expect to learn next week if $200 million in federal capital funding will be approved.
> 
> The Federal Rail Administration money (via the second round of funding set aside for high-speed rail projects under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009) would be used to build new sidings, signals and make other corridor improvements, said Carmine Palombo, director of transportation planning for the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments regional planning agency.


http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20101022/FREE/101029943/-1#


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## amtrakwolverine

Any updates? nothing on semcogs website.


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## amtrakwolverine

January Update

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2January2011Update.aspx


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## DET63

> Work is nearly complete on the refurbishment of a locomotive, coach car, and cab car for the Ann Arbor - Detroit Regional Rail Project. View the photos below to see the progress that has been made on MiTrain.


Click on amtrakwolverine's link above for more. Note that the photos appear to be large files and thus load slowly. How many train sets will there be? Are they refurbishing one loco, coach, and cab car at a time?


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## amtrakwolverine

It appears only 1 loco 1 cabcar and 1 coach car have been refurbished. The trains will only have 2 cars. I hope they build more later cause only 1 transit is not going to cut it. What if the 1 engine breaks down. they won't have any backups. The engine came from GO transit in toronto were they did the rebuild of the loco.


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## PerRock

There is a picture of another F59PH at the shops where the 1st was refurbished. Last pictures I've seen still have it in GO paint, but it may be in line to be updated. Also GLC owns some more coaches that may or may not be refurbished at a later date for service on the MiTrain.

peter


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## Nexis4Jersey

Why aren't they buying DMU's which are cheaper and use less Fuel. There also better for low use corridors...


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## MattW

Probably because they'd be a higher initial cost, and because except for the new units Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit is buying from Nippon Sharyo, and the (now defunct) Colorado Railcar DMUs, available DMUs don't meet FRA crash standards, and because any DMU would be years away from seeing the rails.


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## Nexis4Jersey

MattW said:


> Probably because they'd be a higher initial cost, and because except for the new units Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit is buying from Nippon Sharyo, and the (now defunct) Colorado Railcar DMUs, available DMUs don't meet FRA crash standards, and because any DMU would be years away from seeing the rails.


Texas is buying DMU's for its Newer lines that share with freight. NJT runs the Riverline that shares with freight....it seems to me the FRA does not care.


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## AlanB

Nexis4Jersey said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably because they'd be a higher initial cost, and because except for the new units Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit is buying from Nippon Sharyo, and the (now defunct) Colorado Railcar DMUs, available DMUs don't meet FRA crash standards, and because any DMU would be years away from seeing the rails.
> 
> 
> 
> Texas is buying DMU's for its Newer lines that share with freight. NJT runs the Riverline that shares with freight....it seems to me the FRA does not care.
Click to expand...

NJT's Riverline cars don't meet FRA crash standards to share the tracks with active freight trains. Freight only runs on the tracks during the late night hours when the Riverline doesn't operate; something called temporal separation. Newark's light rail system also has a temporal separation with freight on the last few miles of the line in Newark & Belleville. They even have a big gate that the freight crews have to unlock before they can roll out onto the shared tracks.

And the FRA cares quite a bit. In fact if there was ever a violation of the temporal separation, some people would have some major explaining to do. And quite possible could be looking for a new job.


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## Nexis4Jersey

AlanB said:


> Nexis4Jersey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably because they'd be a higher initial cost, and because except for the new units Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit is buying from Nippon Sharyo, and the (now defunct) Colorado Railcar DMUs, available DMUs don't meet FRA crash standards, and because any DMU would be years away from seeing the rails.
> 
> 
> 
> Texas is buying DMU's for its Newer lines that share with freight. NJT runs the Riverline that shares with freight....it seems to me the FRA does not care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NJT's Riverline cars don't meet FRA crash standards to share the tracks with active freight trains. Freight only runs on the tracks during the late night hours when the Riverline doesn't operate; something called temporal separation. Newark's light rail system also has a temporal separation with freight on the last few miles of the line in Newark & Belleville. They even have a big gate that the freight crews have to unlock before they can roll out onto the shared tracks.
> 
> And the FRA cares quite a bit. In fact if there was ever a violation of the temporal separation, some people would have some major explaining to do. And quite possible could be looking for a new job.
Click to expand...

Why do we still have these 19th Century rules , time to join the rest of the planet... Aussieland has the same of trains we do and they have no issues...


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## amtrakwolverine

September Update http://www.semcog.org/A2D2_September2011.aspx


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## amtrakwolverine

June Update http://www.semcog.org/A2D2June2012Update.aspx

Could be running by the end of the year or 2013. it will run during events only. Right now the cars can run up to 40MPH. 79MPH tests to start in july.


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