# Light rail and street car on same tracks?



## Ispolkom (Mar 13, 2014)

St. Paul is planning a street car line on 7th Street. I have read suggestions that the line could eventually tie into or continue to Minneapolis Airport, which is already served by the Blue Line light rail.

The idea of a street car continuing on a light rail line to the airport seems wrong to me, but I'm not sure why. I know that there is no basic reason a street car couldn't use a light rail line, after all, they're both standard gauge.

Still, it seems to me that there might be problems with signalling, or something, and I can't think off the top of my head of any street cars in the US that share tracks with light rail. They certainly don't in Portland, New Orleans, or Little Rock, the only lines I've been on in this century. What about San Francisco?

I'll readily admit that my ignorance of this issue is enormous, and in any case, this is all probably academic, since the St. Paul street car is politically about as likely as the St. Paul People Mover.


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## AlanB (Mar 13, 2014)

There shouldn't be any signaling issues unless they did something really silly. And no other track issue or power issues, unless again the did something silly with the power.

Out in Portland the Streetcars don't mix with light rail normally, but they could. And in fact the lines are linked together, not so much for the purpose of commingling the routes, but rather to get the Streetcars to the maintenance facilities located along the LRT lines. And early on that is how they moved the Streetcars to the facility for heavy maintenance.

However, they started putting the Streetcars on flatbed trucks to move the cars to the maintenance facility when needed. The reason was that the Streetcars were limited to 40 MPH and putting them out on the LRT lines where the cars can go much faster caused scheduling problems. I'm sure that with a bit of better planning that they could have worked things out, but for whatever reason they chose not to.

One thing however that cannot happen in Portland is for the LRT cars to run on the Streetcar tracks. The LRT cars are heavier than the Streetcars are and the tracks and roadbed cannot handle the extra weight. So you will never find an LRT car running on the Streetcar lines in Portland no matter what.


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## CHamilton (Mar 13, 2014)

This isn't quite what you're asking, but you might find it interesting. Our local neighborhood blog published a piece yesterday on how wiring for existing trolley buses and a new streetcar are being managed.

First Hill streetcar cables join Capitol Hill’s complicated web of wiring




> (Image: Rupee Groupie via Flickr)
> With the First Hill streetcar permanently altering Broadway’s streetscape, you should also look up and take note of changes above. The power system required for the new trains has added to the already incredibly complicated web of wires that passes through the area. Intersections like this view at Pine and Broadway from earlier this winter are particularly amazing as infrastructure for the electric Metro trolley buses meshes with the new cables for the streetcar — and an amazing mess of other utilities.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anderson (Mar 13, 2014)

That tangle of wires looks like it came out of the 1940s...

...which I think a fair portion did, come to think of it.


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## MattW (Mar 14, 2014)

Atlanta is building and planning a Streetcar/light rail system. Unlike Portland however, the only real difference between the two will be how dedicated the right of way is and probably how fast they will go. In the end, it will really just end up being a light rail system with a lot of street running in the core of the city shared with traffic, with the "light rail" segments being on dedicated or semi-dedicated right of way running only with other light rail traffic.

It sounds like St. Paul is doing the same if they intend to share the track to the airport, it's a streetcar in-town, but just as capable as regular light rail on the "mainline."

Though in terms of interesting shared systems, look at the Cleveland Red/Green/Blue lines. The Red line is heavy rail that draws power through a pantograph, while the Blue and Green lines are light rail (which also draw from overhead lines). For two stations, the three lines all share the same tracks and overhead lines. The two stations have two sections each, a high level section for the red line, and a low level section for the blue and green lines.


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## cirdan (Mar 14, 2014)

AlanB said:


> However, they started putting the Streetcars on flatbed trucks to move the cars to the maintenance facility when needed. The reason was that the Streetcars were limited to 40 MPH and putting them out on the LRT lines where the cars can go much faster caused scheduling problems. I'm sure that with a bit of better planning that they could have worked things out, but for whatever reason they chose not to.


Yes, especially seeing light rail trains need to stop regularly to take passengers, whereas a streetcar running empty can just sail through such stops. The real difference in average speeds shouldn't be that big.


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## BCL (Mar 14, 2014)

In San Francisco their streetcar system included underground stations. I thought there was a time in the early 80s when they were using streetcars and the new Boeing Vertol (what an absolute piece of junk) light rail cars on the same tracks and the same stations. I remember going to San Francisco around 1980 after the Market Street Subway was completed. They had modern looking stations along with ones that looked years old. They were using stainless steel fare gates at the new stations and mechanical fare equipment at the older ones.

San Francisco is actually one of the odder systems with stations and operators. When they stop at a station, entrance is via fare gates. At a street stop the operator will roll down their window and accept cash fares. At all stops you've got the option to use an interagency pass (Clipper) or a limited-use ticket using the same technology. If you've got that or a proof of payment that hasn't expired, one can enter via the back door (there's a reader there). If you've got a paper transfer, then they don't record that as a transaction. On top of that there are fare inspectors who may ask to see a proof of payment or check the status of the limited-use ticket/Clipper card. Then there are the tourists who are using day-use passes in the form of scratch off tickets. You're supposed to scratch off the first day.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2014)

Why do you think San Francisco is odd? It is actually a pretty typical system, with only very minor differences from Boston or Philadelphia for example.


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## BCL (Mar 14, 2014)

jis said:


> Why do you think San Francisco is odd? It is actually a pretty typical system, with only very minor differences from Boston or Philadelphia for example.


Don't have a lot of experience with other systems. Around Northern California the only other light rail systems are Santa Clara County VTA and Sacramento RT's system. The former is exclusively proof of payment based using fare inspectors. The operator closes the door and the passengers almost never see the operator. Haven't ridden the later, but I understand it's a similar setup. They only board at outdoor stations with platforms. VTA light rail even has one place where it crosses an expressway with crossing arms.

Both take Capitol Corridor transfers. Occasionally I've been asked for proof and the transfer was good enough. One time the fare inspector wrote down the date along with her badge number. Not sure what that was for other than to "cancel" the transfer. It didn't sound like standard procedures.


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## The Journalist (Mar 16, 2014)

The line between "light rail" and "streetcar" is wide and hazy; in many ways, they overlap. The Green Line in Boston is probably the best example of this; one branch of it is completely grade-separated, two are street running, and the fourth runs between lanes but has to follow traffic lights. All the branches converge and run in a tunnel through downtown. The vehicles could be called huge streetcars or tiny trains; both would be accurate. San Francisco's system is similar, with the downtown section even more subway-like. SF also runs a fleet of PCC (historic) streetcars; those can run through the "light rail" subway tunnels if necessary-in fact the first vehicles that ran in the tunnels were PCC's-though they almost never do anymore.


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## jis (Mar 16, 2014)

One of the unique systems that I have had the opportunity to ride is the Mulhouse Tram/Train/Streetcar system. Interestingly, one of its routes is what you ride to get to the French National Railroad Museum.

That line starts off as a streetcar at Mulhouse SNCF station. Then in the suburbs it runs into a grade separated LRT upto a place called Lutterbach (The museum is in this LRT section). At Lutterbach it just changes power from 750V DC LRV power to 25kV 50Hz AC mainline power and just gets on the SNCF suburban line to Thann and Kruth sharing it with regular suburban trains! The tram-trains are based on the same Siemens Avanto Low Floor LRV base model that the Charlotte Lynx Blue Line trains are based on.

Mulhouse Tram Train as Streetcar:






Mulhouse Tram Train as LRV shared with other LRT service:






Mulhouse Tram-Train on SNCF trackage under 25kV:


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## Ispolkom (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks to all for lessening my ignorance. I'm especially grateful for the comparisons to other, built-out systems.

Now let's see if St. Paul actually does something!


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## Tracktwentynine (Mar 17, 2014)

Up until 1999, Pittsburgh mixed PCC streetcars with modern LRVs, including in the downtown subway. Even today, you'll note that the older downtown stations have a low platform at one end, that is cordoned off. This is the exact same setup as in Stuttgart Germany, where streetcars (Straßenbahnen) used to share with light rail trains (Stadtbahnen) in the subway.

Today in Charlotte, the Charlotte Trolley (which is a faux historic streetcar, like the Canal line in New Orleans) runs on trackage with the Lynx light rail.

San Diego runs a weekend loop line with PCC cars that shares trackage with the Blue and Orange lines downtown.

Since light rail systems evolved from streetcars, they're often compatible. But in terms of inter-operability, there are different considerations:


Power systems (Light Rail generally uses pantograph, (heritage) streetcars generally use trolleypoles, and the two aren't compatible).
Platform height (Some light rail lines use high platforms. Streetcars often can't use high platforms)
Speed (Streetcars typically have lower maximum speeds, so they can't just mix with LRVs without schedule impacts)
On the other hand, the line between streetcar and light rail isn't a hard clear line. New modern streetcar systems in Atlanta and Salt Lake City use light rail vehicles, which they call streetcars, but the same vehicles in other cities are called light rail. Light rail systems in Pittsburgh, Boston, and San Francisco evolved from streetcars, and so even though they're called light rail and run in coupled sets, they sometimes act like streetcars (like in Beechview, Pittsburgh and along Judah Street in San Francisco).


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## fairviewroad (Mar 17, 2014)

cirdan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > However, they started putting the Streetcars on flatbed trucks to move the cars to the maintenance facility when needed. The reason was that the Streetcars were limited to 40 MPH and putting them out on the LRT lines where the cars can go much faster caused scheduling problems. I'm sure that with a bit of better planning that they could have worked things out, but for whatever reason they chose not to.
> ...


Not to mention the fact that Portland light rail isn't a 24-hour system. It would easy peasy to run the streetcars along the LRT to the maintenance facilities after the LRT system shuts down for the night. Maybe you have to pay a little OT, but it would _seem_ to be a lot easier than hauling it via truck.

On a related note, up until last year Portland had a replica "vintage trolley" that ran on LRT tracks. Sadly, the service has been discontinued.


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## George Harris (Mar 17, 2014)

There are at least two places in San Francisco where the light rail lines are connected to the street car line. It appears that the two systems are interoperable. By the way, in Market Street the street car takes its power off the electric bus line overhead. Looking which line the streetcar pole goes to will tell you which is the positive wire, and by default which is the negative wire, as in both streetcar and light rail the return current is through the rail. All the San Francisco ligh rail lines beyond the Market Street tunnel that was built when BART was built started life as streetcar lines, and still operate the same as the streetcar lines, just with the light rail vehicles.


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## BCL (Mar 17, 2014)

The Journalist said:


> The line between "light rail" and "streetcar" is wide and hazy; in many ways, they overlap. The Green Line in Boston is probably the best example of this; one branch of it is completely grade-separated, two are street running, and the fourth runs between lanes but has to follow traffic lights. All the branches converge and run in a tunnel through downtown. The vehicles could be called huge streetcars or tiny trains; both would be accurate. San Francisco's system is similar, with the downtown section even more subway-like. SF also runs a fleet of PCC (historic) streetcars; those can run through the "light rail" subway tunnels if necessary-in fact the first vehicles that ran in the tunnels were PCC's-though they almost never do anymore.


The F-line (Fishermans Wharf to Castro) in San Francisco uses lots of different equipment purchased and/or loaned from systems around the world. I saw a bunch of them yesterday taking my kid out to San Francisco. They have a lot of the Peter Witt cars from Milan. I think most of the equipment is older MUNI PCC cars that have been repainted in different schemes. Last weekend I noticed a Boston Elevated pattern along with a Pacific Electric pattern from LA.

And the F-line is heavily used. I remember seeing two or three packed cars just bypass our stop. We were all looking at the cars and thinking - yeah it's probably not going to stop. Sometimes they only open the rear door to let people out. If you've already got a transfer or can use the Clipper tag then it was possible to board. When we finally got on, the operator pointed to the rear door. I wanted to pay cash, but still had to work through a packed car to the front to pay the fare.

It must get interesting training operators for the dissimilar equipment.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 17, 2014)

The San Francisco set-up is very interesting and amusing to understand. They system is mostly interoperable between both true street cars and LRV's, where-as streetcars can physically run on all lines served by LRV's, but not all LRV's are able to operate where the street cars can. The best example of this is the Market Street F route ran with street cars. The LRV's cannot run on the above ground Market Street tracks because power is delivered by way of trolley bus wire. The LRV pantographs would short themselves out on the parallel positive and neutral overhead wires.

The only light rail route that could not have streetcars operate in revenue service upon is the T line south of King Street, which is the location of the CalTrain terminal. This is because all of the stations from that point until the south end of the line are all high-level platforms, since this line is the only one in all of San Francisco that was built completely from the ground-up as a light rail route, complete with grade separation and signal-guarded grade crossings, and not a legacy street car route.

When the Central Subway project is finished in a few years, the T line will no longer turn at King Street and go along the Embarcadero and down into the Market Street Subway. It will instead cross King Street, continue north on 4th Street, then plunge underground around where I-80 is and continue all the way up to Chinatown beneath Stockton Street. There are also future desires to extend the Central Subway all the way to Fisherman's Wharf at some point, and have the tracks rise back out of the ground to connect with the current terminus of the F line.

Additionally, there are plans to re-activate the defunt E line, which will initially run from the 4th & King MUNI station along the length of the Embarcadero, and share trackage with the F line from Market Street north. Eventually, plans call for the E line to continue north past Fisherman's Wharf, along the original E route (the trackage is still in place) past Aquatic Park and through the abandoned tunnel beneath Black Point, then through Fort Mason and onto Marina Boulevard with a terminus at the Palace of Fine Arts. This route will be operated by historic street cars, but only double-ended ones since there is no turn-around at either end of the route.

Lastly, I beleive all of the PCC's are not simply old MUNI rolling stock, but are in fact from the cities and systems of their respective livery. Each one, if I recall, has a small card near the front with its known history written down. There are MUNI cars in use, and they wear MUNI colors. Just this last Saturday there were cars from Milan, Melbourne, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, San Diego, and San Francisco in service on the F line.


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## BCL (Mar 17, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Lastly, I beleive all of the PCC's are not simply old MUNI rolling stock, but are in fact from the cities and systems of their respective livery. Each one, if I recall, has a small card near the front with its known history written down. There are MUNI cars in use, and they wear MUNI colors. Just this last Saturday there were cars from Milan, Melbourne, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, San Diego, and San Francisco in service on the F line.


My information says that the PCC cars were MUNI original cars, along with ones obtained from SEPTA and NJ Transit that used to be in service in Philadelphia and Newark.



> http://sfmta.com/about-sfmta/our-history-and-fleet/sfmta-fleet/historic-streetcars
> 
> Nine of the Milan cars are currently in service to Fisherman’s Wharf, and others will be ready for service in the future. Seventeen PCC streetcars are in regular F Line service (fourteen from Philadelphia and three from Muni). The cars are painted in the PCC colors of Muni and other transit agencies in the U.S. as their streamlined design is attractive, and they were quieter and more economical than earlier versions of streetcars, with better motors, controls, acceleration and braking.



I'm old enough to remember when MUNI was running the green and beige cars. They were still running the PCC cars in the 80s with the new orange color scheme. I even saw a few MUNI tokens in my day. My parents operated a restaurant in SF, and a few of them ended up being mistaken for pennies.






Here's a list of the equipment they use:

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/roster.html

The info also has a listing of the ones bought from SEPTA and NJT (rewired by Brookeville Equipment) and the color schemes they've adopted. Apparently the Boston Elevated pattern I saw was bought from SEPTA as was the Pacific Electric.

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/streetcar-division.asp


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## George Harris (Mar 18, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Lastly, I beleive all of the PCC's are not simply old MUNI rolling stock, but are in fact from the cities and systems of their respective livery. Each one, if I recall, has a small card near the front with its known history written down. There are MUNI cars in use, and they wear MUNI colors. Just this last Saturday there were cars from Milan, Melbourne, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, San Diego, and San Francisco in service on the F line.


This is correct. These cars are from and painted in the livery of their previous owners. There are quite a few Pacific Electric's, have also seen Louisville Street Railway, cars from Birmingham, and others I don't remember right now. These of course all predate the concept of air conditioning and don't have it, but in San Francisco where you need heat something like 51 weeks a year that is not an issue. When in the PCC cars, think about how far ahead technologically for the time of their design. They are also far simpler mechanically than the light rail cars, a lesson which should be learned by today's vehicle designers. It was said that when the last PCC car was built, in 1947, when it was delivered all that was done was roll it off the flatcar, get it under the wire, raise the pole and go.


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## cirdan (Mar 18, 2014)

George Harris said:


> This is correct. These cars are from and painted in the livery of their previous owners. There are quite a few Pacific Electric's, have also seen Louisville Street Railway, cars from Birmingham, and others I don't remember right now. These of course all predate the concept of air conditioning and don't have it, but in San Francisco where you need heat something like 51 weeks a year that is not an issue. When in the PCC cars, think about how far ahead technologically for the time of their design. They are also far simpler mechanically than the light rail cars, a lesson which should be learned by today's vehicle designers. It was said that when the last PCC car was built, in 1947, when it was delivered all that was done was roll it off the flatcar, get it under the wire, raise the pole and go.


The PCC is in many ways an optimal design. Some of the various cities that had them tried to do things to them over the years to improve them but almost invariably ended up reverting to the original configuration as there was simply no beating that for simplicity, reliability and also being pleasing on the eye.


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## George Harris (Mar 18, 2014)

cirdan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > This is correct. These cars are from and painted in the livery of their previous owners. There are quite a few Pacific Electric's, have also seen Louisville Street Railway, cars from Birmingham, and others I don't remember right now. These of course all predate the concept of air conditioning and don't have it, but in San Francisco where you need heat something like 51 weeks a year that is not an issue. When in the PCC cars, think about how far ahead technologically for the time of their design. They are also far simpler mechanically than the light rail cars, a lesson which should be learned by today's vehicle designers. It was said that when the last PCC car was built, in 1947, when it was delivered all that was done was roll it off the flatcar, get it under the wire, raise the pole and go.
> ...


It was designed by people that had operating and maintenance experience running streetcar systems. They wanted modern, simple, look good vehicles the incorporated the best known most reliable and rugged technology at that time. (1933) and it was obviously wildly successful. Only the financial realities of the time prevented a lot more being built and the design being further tweaked. (Hint: many things in American track are still done that way.)


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## BCL (Mar 18, 2014)

George Harris said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Lastly, I beleive all of the PCC's are not simply old MUNI rolling stock, but are in fact from the cities and systems of their respective livery. Each one, if I recall, has a small card near the front with its known history written down. There are MUNI cars in use, and they wear MUNI colors. Just this last Saturday there were cars from Milan, Melbourne, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, San Diego, and San Francisco in service on the F line.
> ...


Again, the complete roster of F-line cars from streetcars.org claims that nearly all their PCC cars were in service on MUNI (including some bought from St Louis), or bought from NJT (from Newark and before that Minneapolis-St Paul) and SEPTA. They list a few bought from other sources, but those aren't currently operational. A couple of the Minneapolis-St Paul/Newark cars have the livery of those services, and one of the original Philadelphia cars (was in regular service before with MUNI) was repainted in Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company colors.

Here's what they say about 1061:



> http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/1061/
> 
> Muni No. 1061 is painted in the red, orange, and silver livery of the PE PCCs, inspired by the ‘Daylight’ train colors of PE’s big brother Southern Pacific. Today, every F-line trip passes SP’s old headquarters at One Market Street.


And San Diego was mentioned:



> http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/1078/
> 
> *San Diego, California*
> 
> ...


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## AlanB (Mar 18, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


That's when they do track work & power work, so they don't want to be moving the Streetcars at that time.

Yes, I know that they could work around that and that exceptions could be made. But for whatever reason, the powers that be have decided that it's just easier to truck the cars instead.


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