# Emp Serv to GCT, LSL NYP Suspended, Other NYP Changes 2018



## Thirdrail7

Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer. The majority will be diverted to GCT while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.

Keep a sharp watch.


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## Northeastern292

Thirdrail7 said:


> Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer. The majority will be diverted to GCT while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.
> 
> Keep a sharp watch.


Last I heard is that everything south of ALB will be shuttle service with everything north and west originating in either ALB or (in the case of the Lake Shore) BOS.

Can anyone say the return of the _New England States_?


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## stappend

No NYP section of the LSL during the summer.

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/03/01/new-york-section-of-lsl-reportedly-will-be-suspended-during-new-york-penn-station-work-this-summer/

This could play into the decision making process. The diner runs out of NYP. Curious to see if they will run the entire train out of Boston, or add additional cars in Albany.


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## Steve4031

Would the platforms be long enough in Boston?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Palmetto

Steve4031 said:


> Would the platforms be long enough in Boston?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I've arrived at South Station on a 14-car _Merchants Limited,_ so I would say yes.


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## Steve4031

Ok. It would make sense then.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Blackwolf

The Cardinal is going to be a very popular train on the days it runs....


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## west point

Nothing yet from Amtrak so let us wait on final routing.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Restart the Broadway! Or get the through cars up and running!


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would the platforms be long enough in Boston?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> I've arrived at South Station on a 14-car _Merchants Limited,_ so I would say yes.
Click to expand...

I am trying to remember if there was a Merchants Limited after South Station platforms were rebuilt as shorter platforms than before.

I do think though that at least a few of them would be long enough for a typical LSL consist.


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## stappend

I looked it up, there are several in the 1200 foot range, but I couldn't find the typical length of the LSL and they could drop at least the 2nd bag car.


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## jis

LSL is minimally 5 Coaches, 3 Sleepers, Diner, Lounge, two bags and two diesels. Yes they could drop one bag. So that would be 11 cars and two engines. That should be under 1100'.

I seem to recall though that Thirdrail had mentioned that problem is not so much with platform length as with available storage and servicing track length, of which there are none that can accommodate such a long train at Southampton Street. This is what might cause a part of the train to be lopped off at Albany and services there instead of the whole thing running to Boston.


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## cpotisch

I still don’t quite understand why they would do this?

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## Ryan

Construction at NYP.


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## PRR 60

Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

PRR 60 said:


> Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.


If Amtrak were interested in temporarily doing such a thing why couldn't they just route it via Washington and a Northeast Regional?


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## PRR 60

cpotisch said:


> I still don’t quite understand why they would do this?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Reportedly, the work planned at Penn Station this summer sever access to and from the tunnel for the Empire Service line. An added complication is that the Lake Shore must not only access the west side connector tunnel, but also the East River tunnels to permit servicing at Sunnyside Yard. If the specific tracks needed for that operation are out of service for reconstruction, then the Lake Shore cannot run to and from New York Penn.


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## jis

They are also apparently going to take this opportunity to take the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge out of service and do major maintenance work on it this summer. Hence nothing will run on the Empire Connection this summer.


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## cpotisch

But the LSL is such a popular and profitable train! Why don’t they try and run it out of GCT? I know that Grand Central doesn’t have unlimited capacity to run EVERY Amtrak train, but the Lake Shore is pretty significant. Could they not slide it in?


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## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> But the LSL is such a popular and profitable train! Why dont they at least run it out of GCT? I know that Grand Central doesnt have unlimited capacity, but the Lake Shore is pretty significant.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


It can not access Sunnyside Yard easily from Grand Central, which is necessary to service a long-distance train.


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## lstone19

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the LSL is such a popular and profitable train! Why dont they at least run it out of GCT? I know that Grand Central doesnt have unlimited capacity, but the Lake Shore is pretty significant.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> It can not access Sunnyside Yard easily from Grand Central, which is necessary to service a long-distance train.
Click to expand...

From its start in 1975 until 1991, the LSL went in and out of GCT. Back then, the train was serviced in Chicago and did a same day (approx. 5 hours with the schedule then) turn at GCT.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


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## jis

But the facilities that were in place at Grand Central to turn the LSL there are no more. So it is irrelevant what happened back then.


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## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the LSL is such a popular and profitable train! Why dont they at least run it out of GCT? I know that Grand Central doesnt have unlimited capacity, but the Lake Shore is pretty significant.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> It can not access Sunnyside Yard easily from Grand Central, which is necessary to service a long-distance train.
Click to expand...

Ooooooohhh. Argh. That’s a shame. It would be so glorious to take the Lake Shore Limited out of that beautiful station.


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## dlagrua

I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.


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## Trogdor

dlagrua said:


> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.


Not when there is no way to service the train.

NY-bound passengers can transfer at ALB to an Empire Service train. It's not the end of the world. It's not really that different than the many times Amtrak had to run a shuttle/stub train ALB-BOS instead of a through train, except that now it's a different set of passengers making the transfer.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Trogdor said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Not when there is no way to service the train.
> 
> NY-bound passengers can transfer at ALB to an Empire Service train. It's not the end of the world. It's not really that different than the many times Amtrak had to run a shuttle/stub train ALB-BOS instead of a through train, except that now it's a different set of passengers making the transfer.
Click to expand...

You said the T-Word. Now New Yorkers will find out what it's like to live in Philly ... or Boston. Maybe when a bigger city is involved Amtrak will finally fix the problem once and for all.


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## fixj

If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.


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## amtrakpass

I don't think Transfering at Albany is too much of a hassle for a few months as long as the ticketing is clear and it is on the itinerary. One small question for those more familiar with Grand Central. Is there a waiting area with enough seats so people can sit down somewhere? Especially for older folks or handicaped persons who would usually get to the station plenty early for a long trip? Taking Metro North out of there I don't recall seeing a seated waiting area like penn station has but I may have missed it since I wasn't looking for it


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## cpotisch

dlagrua said:


> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.


Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.


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## frequentflyer

Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.


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## dlagrua

frequentflyer said:


> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.


The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..


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## OlympianHiawatha

If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the _*Cardina*_l and _*Cap *_to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via _*Regional*_ or _*Acela.*_


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## Eric S

Why is transferring in Albany such an unbearable burden that passengers should instead be encouraged to transfer in Washington?


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## jis

dlagrua said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
Click to expand...

If you try to book an NYP - CHI trip via WAS Amtrak offers the following:

NYP 11:35 (ET) WAS 15:11 (ET) 125

WAS 1605 (ET) CHI 08:45 (CT) 29

That appears to be about 22 hours, not 25 hours as you claim.


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the *small carry on's*. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
Click to expand...

No, you're not limited to small carry on's. I've taken the regionals to/from WAS when traveling on the CL. I've taken my big bag and other bags.


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to book an NYP - CHI trip via WAS Amtrak offers the following:
> NYP 11:35 (ET) WAS 15:11 (ET) 125
> 
> WAS 1605 (ET) CHI 08:45 (CT) 29
> 
> That appears to be about 22 hours, not 25 hours as you claim.
Click to expand...

Yes. But there’s still the hassle of going to DC and changing trains. I’m surprised Philly isn’t on this thread yet. [emoji6]


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## cpotisch

So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?

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## Eric S

cpotisch said:


> Yes. But there’s still the hassle of going to DC and changing trains. I’m surprised Philly isn’t on this thread yet. [emoji6]


Check Post #24


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## cpotisch

Eric S said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. But there’s still the hassle of going to DC and changing trains. I’m surprised Philly isn’t on this thread yet. [emoji6]
> 
> 
> 
> Check Post #24
Click to expand...

Oh. I see. [emoji50]


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## Trogdor

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> You said the T-Word. Now New Yorkers will find out what it's like to live in Philly ... or Boston. Maybe when a bigger city is involved Amtrak will finally fix the problem once and for all.



And...what problem would that be? The problem of needing to do track work which cuts off access to the station from the north for a few months?

The amount of whining and hand-wringing on this thread over what amounts to a normal, run-of-the-mill trackwork service modification is astounding.

Last year, Amtrak cut back the Crescent to Washington, DC, to accommodate a project at NYP and no elderly ladies or tiny poddles died because of the need to transfer, with luggage, to continue to New York. Amtrak regularly cuts back the Crescent at ATL several days a week in the winter because of trackwork. Many other routes, both corridor and long-distance, have had service adjustments, annulments, forced transfers (including, as I noted earlier, the LSL Boston section), bus substitutions, etc. for periods ranging from a few days to months on end to accommodate planned projects.

There is absolutely no reason to believe this would be any different. If anything, there's greater chance of difficulty for people trying to transfer from NYG to NYP if they need to make a connection from ALB to places along the NEC, yet they managed to work that out last year, too (at least, on a few trains).

So, in other words, so much ado about almost nothing.


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## Ryan

Eric S said:


> Why is transferring in Albany such an unbearable burden that passengers should instead be encouraged to transfer in Washington?


Nothing. It’s completely nonsensical.

Trogdor is the voice of reason, as always.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Chicago is a much bigger destination than Atlanta/New Orleans. It is also a feeder to anywhere west of Chicago, California, Texas, Denver, etc. You are also including Cleveland, and Toledo.


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## MikefromCrete

This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.


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## dlagrua

MikefromCrete said:


> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.


How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?
Click to expand...

Strap them together. Use a foldaway cart, red caps. Or just pack less stuff. Should they not do track work just so people aren't inconvenienced?

Edit: Or ship your big bags to your destination.


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## BuffaloBoy

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Strap them together. Use a foldaway cart, red caps. Or just pack less stuff. Should they not do track work just so people aren't inconvenienced?
> Edit: Or ship your big bags to your destination.
Click to expand...

I travel often to Texas and Virginia for extended stays and always ship a big box ahead of me to avoid lugging a big bag. So easy!


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Considering the volume of passengers this is affecting and the fact that Amtrak can operate trains between ALB and Grand Central, they may very well add a baggage car on the connecting train from Albany to New York, much like what was done with the Crescent last year.


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## dlagrua

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Strap them together. Use a foldaway cart, red caps. Or just pack less stuff. Should they not do track work just so people aren't inconvenienced?
> 
> Edit: Or ship your big bags to your destination.
Click to expand...

They do need to do the track work. No argument there but my point is that Amtrak only allows two SMALL pieces of carry on luggage on regional connecting trains.. I am not saying that the track work should not be done only that the LSL be moved to GCT. That's a big station. Surely there must a a track open at 3:45 in the afternoon. The original New York Central train that ran the water level (LSL) route departed from there. It was called the 20th Century Ltd. Seems better than taking two trains.


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## Eric S

You can carry on 2 small personal items AND 2 pieces of luggage. Just like passengers do on trains and at stations without checked baggage service.


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Strap them together. Use a foldaway cart, red caps. Or just pack less stuff. Should they not do track work just so people aren't inconvenienced?
> 
> Edit: Or ship your big bags to your destination.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They do need to do the track work. No argument there but my point is that Amtrak only allows two SMALL pieces of carry on luggage on regional connecting trains.. I am not saying that the track work should not be done only that the LSL be moved to GCT. That's a big station. Surely there must a a track open at 3:45 in the afternoon. The original New York Central train that ran the water level (LSL) route departed from there. It was called the 20th Century Ltd. Seems better than taking two trains.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I had my 28" bag on a regional once and definitely had my 22" one several times. Plus my overnight bag and a backpack. There's room at one end of the car where you can put your big bags...if there's no one with a wheelchair that needs to be there. There's also a small section dedicated to holding bigger bags.

And did you not see Jis' and others say that they can't get the train from GCT to Sunnyside to clean and restock the train?


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## PaTrainFan

PRR 60 said:


> Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.


What is the "work planned at Pittsburgh?"


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## PRR 60

PaTrainFan said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the "work planned at Pittsburgh?"
Click to expand...

A Performance Improvement Plan prepared for the Capitol Limited included a proposal to add cars to the Pennsylvanian that would be attached to the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh and continue on to Chicago. In order to do that without having a switcher and crew at Pittsburgh, an existing stub-end track at Pittsburgh station would have to be connected to the westbound through track with a new switch. This work would be done by Norfolk Southern and paid by Amtrak. For whatever reason, the work was not done, and the through car proposal died.


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## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?
Click to expand...

The same way you handle it now from your front door to the train station. It’s not like the difference in trains makes you carry *more* stuff.


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## Manny T

The LSL has had a 1 hour+ layover in ALB. Virtually all of the trips I've taken, there is a Regional in the Albany station when the LSL is there laying over, heading to NYC. I've always thought about jumping on that Regional and beating the LSL to Penn Station. Now it looks like that will happen. Long story short--transferring from LSL to a Regional heading to NYC at ALB is a nothingburger (questions of luggage aside. Pack accordingly?)


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## cpotisch

NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer. People still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and many AGAIN in CHI.


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## Hotblack Desiato

cpotisch said:


> NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer, people still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and AGAIN in CHI.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Indeed they will.

...

So what?


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## cpotisch

Hotblack Desiato said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer, people still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and AGAIN in CHI.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed they will.
> ...
> 
> So what?
Click to expand...

The answer to your question is in that post.


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## cpotisch

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## CCC1007

cpotisch said:


> Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Take a look at NYC’s existing railroad routes and try to find a routing that doesn’t need a train to turn around enroute to the yard.
Edit to add that this is an artifact from the old New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad rivalry.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## RPC

cpotisch said:


> Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


"Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.


----------



## Steve4031

One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

fixj said:


> If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.



IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.



cpotisch said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.
Click to expand...




OlympianHiawatha said:


> If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the _*Cardina*_l and _*Cap *_to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via _*Regional*_ or _*Acela.*_


And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage?








cpotisch said:


> So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum



Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out. We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.



RPC said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> "Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.
Click to expand...

If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.



Steve4031 said:


> One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. * Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


And BUF,SYR,UCA,SDY,ALB,POU and CRT. It's not like those aren't MAJOR stops or anything!


----------



## Steve4031

Thirdrail7 said:


> fixj said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.
> 
> 
> 
> IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the _*Cardina*_l and _*Cap *_to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via _*Regional*_ or _*Acela.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out. We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.
> 
> 
> 
> RPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. * Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And BUF,SYR,UCA,SDY,ALB,POU and CRT. It's not like those aren't MAJOR stops or anything!
Click to expand...

True. I said interesting from a railfan point of view. Imho the pax traveling from those cities to nyc have several choies and prefer one seat ride. Im not sure of the ridership ftom those cities to chicago.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 said:


> One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I gotta say, I think that would be even more disruptive than just leaving out NYP-ALB. There are a lot of important stops on the LSL, so I don't think a major Lake Shore route change is the way to go.


----------



## PRR 60

Posts regarding the 2018 Empire Service changes and the Lake Shore Limited NYP suspension have been merged into this topic. Posts regarding the 2017 Empire Service changes have split into a new topic and closed. The 2017 topic can be found here:

Empire Service to GCT Summer 2017


----------



## cpotisch

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?


Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.


----------



## PVD

Linen service and food for diner are both SSYD items.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.
Click to expand...

So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.


----------



## PVD

There is a way, but it is time consuming and would not be acceptable to Metro North, whose track the special move would have to take place on.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.
Click to expand...

I am sure Amtrak is run by people whoa re quite cognizant of such issues way more than you or I. However, far be it from me to take away the joys of being armchair Amtrak CEO


----------



## StriderGDM

Wow... I didn't realize this was the end of the world.

Seriously folks, you realize that the Boston Section has routinely had to change trains at Albany and... no one died.

Is it inconvenient? Sure. It's also inconvenient in the reverse.... i.e. folks in Albany who want to take say the Silver Service, Crescent or other trains where they have baggage but ALB-NYP doesn't provide it (other than the LSL which is a non-starter for same day baggage).

Will it impact ridership? I'm sure it will, a bit. But all the other suggestions, really start to complicate things even more.

People will survive and NYP will be better for it.


----------



## cpotisch

Would it be possible for the train to leave NYP through some different exit track and loop back around or something?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> Would it be possible for the train to leave NYP through some different exit track and loop back around or something?


 Asked and answered.



Thirdrail7 said:


> RPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> "Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.
Click to expand...


----------



## zephyr17

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.
Click to expand...

Kind of hard to run a train if there aren't tracks between the two points. The only way to do it would be to deadhead the train up to New Rochelle on MetroNorth, then down over the Hell's Gate Bridge into Sunnyside.

You are correct in that there will some, probably appreciable, passenger drop off. Whether or not a transfer is reasonable, a subject of discussion here, the plain fact is when you have transfers, you lose ridership.

Side question, it is reasonable to run up to Albany without food service. What about the Empire Service trains that go to Buffalo and the Maple Leaf? Those are long runs. How would they handle food service if they are running into GCT?


----------



## jis

Thirdrail can probably give a more definitive answer to the food service question, but I have heard from usually unreliable sources that the dormant commissary in ALB is going to be temporarily brought back on line. They would need to stock the NY section at ALB too if it is turned there, as was one of the plans. Again Thirdrail may have something more reliable.


----------



## PVD

That is still the most reasonable point. ADK, ML, EA, LSL, and the West of Hudson Empire Service could all pick up stock there. A single point where all of the displaced trains would still go through.


----------



## Trogdor

cpotisch said:


> I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.



What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.

Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.

As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,
> 
> The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.
> 
> The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.
> 
> Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.


A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.


----------



## stappend

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,
> 
> The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.
> 
> The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.
> 
> Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.


I don't think it could. There is a tunnel near the MA/NY border. Also, much of the CSX route isn't yet capable of carrying double stack containers, this is a project that the state of MA and CSX have been working to fix.


----------



## west point

Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk


----------



## Palmetto

dlagrua said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
Click to expand...

I did that, and I think it's a great alternative. And being in sleeper class, I used the Met Lounge in DC. If one is in a hurry, then one should not be taking the train IMHO. If Amtrak wanted to, they could put a baggage car on an NER down to DC to solve the no-baggage-problem. I think they did that recently when the Crescent was terminating in DC instead of New York.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Trogdor said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.
> 
> Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.
> 
> As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."
Click to expand...

Trogdor,

While you are correct in saying "many" LD passengers will not be impeded by making another transfer, there is something to be said for the more "local" markets. In other words, passengers traveling to/from points west of NYP headed to ALB and points north/west. That is a market that is susceptible to drop off and it is not a tiny market.

An additional transfer and a schelp to GCT may indeed be a deal breaker....particularly if it is a self transfer.



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,
> 
> The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.
> 
> The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.
> 
> Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.
> 
> 
> 
> A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.
Click to expand...

It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.



west point said:


> Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?


Where is Hell Gate Yard? What are you talking about? Are you talking about Oak Point Yard? If you are and you're talking about the Oak Point Connector, we've already discussed Metro-North is not agreeable to movements all over their territory. They are allowing access to GCT and that is it.

This goes for the Adirondack.

This goes for the Maple Leaf

This goes for the Ethan Allen

This goes for the Lake Shore Limited.



Metra Electric Rider said:


> I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk


This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.

This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Thirdrail can probably give a more definitive answer to the food service question, but I have heard from usually unreliable sources that the dormant commissary in ALB is going to be temporarily brought back on line. They would need to stock the NY section at ALB too if it is turned there, as was one of the plans. Again Thirdrail may have something more reliable.


I can guess, but as we indicated in the opening of this thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.
> 
> *Extremely likely but ** there are still logistical issues being ironed out. *





Northeastern292 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer. * The majority will be diverted to GCT **while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.*
> 
> Keep a sharp watch.
> 
> 
> 
> *Last I heard is that everything south of ALB will be shuttle service with everything north and west originating in either ALB or (in the case of the Lake Shore) BOS.*
> 
> Can anyone say the return of the _New England States_?
Click to expand...


There are still issues being worked out such as commissary, the availability of power, the forthcoming MARC cab cars (if they are still coming), crew qualifications. You may only see shuttle service GCT-ALB with everything operating North,West and East of ALB terminating and turning at ALB.

You may see cafe service filled from ALB or you may see Aramark trucked in to GCT if the trains do indeed run through. It is too early to tell...except for those who already have this entire undertaking mapped out, diverted and planned....with Superliners and mystery yards.

Perhaps you can ask them Jis.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> Perhaps you can ask them Jis.


We cannot possibly disagree that there is extreme entertainment value at least.

I particularly liked the bit about the Hell Gate Yard and the Superliners to Boston. Maybe we could sell tickets for viewing when Superliners run to Boston, should be some good fireworks.


----------



## Blackwolf

All this talk about being diverted onto a GCT shuttle... And not a peep about the FL9's coming back from the dead to lead it all.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Thirdrail7 said:


> It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.



Yet another city the Superliners don't work in. Great.



Thirdrail7 said:


> This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.
> 
> This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?



It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.


Don't know about Philadelphia. They are a bit weird in the Brotherly Love place anyway.





But I, who lived in NJ for over 40 years and am still on the Board of NJ-ARP, have had difficulty finding any Amtrak customer in New Jersey that cares enough to be worried about the lack of a train to Chicago via Philly. Most (i.e. those that are not hopping abroad the Cardinal), simply get on NJT and go to NY to catch the LSL, or if they want to do it cheaper, catch Amtrak and got to Washington to catch the Cap. Literally, at NJ-ARP we have tried multiple times to get anyone excited about the Pittsburgh through cars in NJ, and beyond a few dyed in the wool railfans no customer of Amtrak seems to care.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.


Get what? You're so fixated on your defunct train that your state refused to pay for that it has clouded your vision.

However, if you want to boss off, I'm always happy to oblige.

It would be a GREAT SHAME if all of these passengers had to arrange another transfer. After all, New York State SUPPORTED the operation of their long distance train. New York State and Vermont SUPPORTED their day train. New York and Amtrak LEASED FREIGHT TRACKS for 99 YEARS and raised the speed to support and maintain their route. With help from New York, Amtrak took over the Post Road Branch to make sure the Lake Shore Limited had a route to BOS. NYS is funding improvements from ALB-SDY as well various other places to ROC.

What has PA done?

Wait...I hear those pesky crickets again.

So, while some people are looking for options, NYS has put their money and interests first...instead of lip service. So, if those members want to complain, it won't help, but at least they can say they've tried.

What about you and PA? How is that letter to Stephen Bloom going? Remember him? His district is just across the river from Harrisburg! Did you get him to stop complaining about the expense of the second Pennsylvanian yet?


----------



## StriderGDM

BTW... unless you want all your passengers taking a pretty long walk... ALB can't do Superliners anymore (I mean in theory it could, but it'll be a walk along the brand new high-level platform to a ramp to the cars).

And again, this is all mental masturbation.


----------



## jebr

jis said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to book an NYP - CHI trip via WAS Amtrak offers the following:
> 
> NYP 11:35 (ET) WAS 15:11 (ET) 125
> 
> WAS 1605 (ET) CHI 08:45 (CT) 29
> 
> That appears to be about 22 hours, not 25 hours as you claim.
Click to expand...

The 11:35 departure from NYP doesn't show up as a suggested itinerary for most destinations beyond Chicago. It'll show for Dallas, but won't for Kansas City, Denver, Milwaukee, or St. Paul. Those passengers are pushed to the 9:35 AM regional instead. Either Amtrak doesn't really want to push that 11:35 connection for some reason (worried about reliability, although then why allow it at all?) or they don't see the need to build that connection.

It's the same in reverse to some extent; if you're just going from Chicago Amtrak will put you on the 3:05 PM Regional north, but from MSP you have to wait for the 4:02 PM train if you're going with the default connection. That one makes even less sense; there's some argument that maybe Amtrak doesn't want to have to rebuild a full cross-country itinerary just because of an hour-late Regional, but when the Regional's the last leg of the trip it really doesn't matter where you're starting from. (Of course, even with the later departure time you're still only arriving an hour later than the LSL, and it's almost certainly a more consistent arrival time since 90+% of the time the 30 > 178 connection is made and the 178 rarely arrives more than a few minutes late. The same can't be said for the LSL.)

Sure, you might be able to eke out an itinerary with the multi-city tool, but Amtrak explicitly states that connections aren't guaranteed if the itinerary is booked with that tool. Thus, for someone connecting beyond Chicago, assuming guaranteed connections you'll add an extra 6 hours to the journey to connect via WAS instead of taking the LSL on its standard timetable. (That's also the area where the hour earlier arrival into CHI doesn't shorten the journey at all, as that time simply becomes extra layover time in Chicago.) I'll admit that I'm currently planning to do NER - CL - EB both ways versus the LSL as the points savings is worth the time, but it's annoying to see that the layovers could be shorter if Amtrak would allow it.


----------



## me_little_me

Thirdrail7 said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.
> 
> Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.
> 
> As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trogdor,
> 
> While you are correct in saying "many" LD passengers will not be impeded by making another transfer, there is something to be said for the more "local" markets. In other words, passengers traveling to/from points west of NYP headed to ALB and points north/west. That is a market that is susceptible to drop off and it is not a tiny market.
> 
> An additional transfer and a schelp to GCT may indeed be a deal breaker....particularly if it is a self transfer.
> 
> 
> 
> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,
> 
> The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.
> 
> The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.
> 
> Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is Hell Gate Yard? What are you talking about? Are you talking about Oak Point Yard? If you are and you're talking about the Oak Point Connector, we've already discussed Metro-North is not agreeable to movements all over their territory. They are allowing access to GCT and that is it.
> 
> This goes for the Adirondack.
> 
> This goes for the Maple Leaf
> 
> This goes for the Ethan Allen
> 
> This goes for the Lake Shore Limited.
> 
> 
> 
> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.
> 
> This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?
Click to expand...

You're no fun at all. AUers have it all figured out so Amtrak should do what is suggested in this forum - even if everyone here disagrees with everyone else. Amtrak should try all of the recommendations. By that time the summer will be over.


----------



## west point

Here is what we did for CHI connections. Checked out departures out of CHI and found 2 consecutive days open. Then booked to CHI with a 1 day layover. When on the in bound to CHI it became apparent that we could make a same day connection called Amtrak agent and changed to same day connection. After some explaining got connection without any extra charge although we planned for paying as much more as the CHI hotel charge.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Experiment (Maybe make this a permanent experiment?)

Floridian (Superliner): 29/30: Combine Capitol Limited and Silver Star schedules, CHI-MIA. One seat ride between the cities.

Broadway Limited (Viewliner): 40/41: CHI-NYP via PGH/PHL

So instead of the Star between WAS-Florida, we send the CL down and use the spare Viewliner as a CHI-NYP train. We lose a NYP-Florida train but we'd still have the SM. We could extend the Palmetto to MIA in the meantime if we wish (that was suggested in the PRIIA).


----------



## jis

And where do you find the extra Superliners needed for the two additional consists?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

<foamer_mode=“on”>

Obviously by cancelling the Empire Builder. Nobody rides that dog anyways, and the poor people that live out there don’t deserve Amtrak service anyways. If it doesn’t run through major cities, it’s crap.

</foamer_mode>


----------



## StriderGDM

Ryan said:


> <paf_mode=“on”>
> 
> Obviously by cancelling the Empire Builder. Nobody rides that dog anyways, and the poor people that live out there don’t deserve Amtrak service anyways. If it doesn’t run through PHL, it’s crap.
> 
> </paf_mode>


That is true. I can safely say I've never seen anyone, including myself, ride the Empire Builder!


----------



## Trogdor

Heres my idea, dont know if its doable or if its just crazy:

Run the Lake Shore CHI-BOS with a connecting train in ALB that runs to New York. Do it for 2-3 months, then return everything back to the way it was when the work is done.

Oh, and convert one of the Acela power cars to diesel so it can run through from Springfield, MA, all the way to Florida.


----------



## jis

Trogdor said:


> Oh, and convert one of the Acela power cars to diesel so it can run through from Springfield, MA, all the way to Florida.


And rebuild Flagler's Key West connection and run it all the way to Key West and then on a ferry to Havana


----------



## Eric S

jis said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and convert one of the Acela power cars to diesel so it can run through from Springfield, MA, all the way to Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> And rebuild Flagler's Key West connection and run it all the way to Key West and then on a ferry to Havana
Click to expand...

May as well extend it on the north end as well. Perhaps recreate the _Gull_ and run it to Halifax?


----------



## jis

PRR60, I think this subthread needs to go to one of the Amtrak fantasy threads.


----------



## cpotisch

Could Amtrak possibly run an Empire Service GCT-ALB with a guaranteed connection to the LSL? So that if that train is late, the LSL would wait and passengers would always make the connection (and the same thing the other direction)?


----------



## Ryan

That wouldn’t work, transferring between trains in impossible.

(Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> That wouldn’t work, transferring between trains in impossible.
> 
> (Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)


Has Amtrak ever done something like that during service disruptions? Or do they always just risk a missed connection and rebook pax if need be?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn’t work, transferring between trains in impossible.
> 
> (Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)
> 
> 
> 
> Has Amtrak ever done something like that during service disruptions? Or do they always just risk a missed connection and rebook pax if need be?
Click to expand...

May we draw your attention to what was done at Washington DC for the Crescent last summer during the disruption?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn’t work, transferring between trains in impossible.
> 
> (Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)
> 
> 
> 
> Has Amtrak ever done something like that during service disruptions? Or do they always just risk a missed connection and rebook pax if need be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> May we draw your attention to what was done at Washington DC for the Crescent last summer during the disruption?
Click to expand...

Could you remind me?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldnt work, transferring between trains in impossible.
> 
> (Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)
> 
> 
> 
> Has Amtrak ever done something like that during service disruptions? Or do they always just risk a missed connection and rebook pax if need be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> May we draw your attention to what was done at Washington DC for the Crescent last summer during the disruption?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could you remind me?
Click to expand...

Passengers were booked on existing Northeast Regional trains which operated with a baggage car during the Crescent termination at Washington.


----------



## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldnt work, transferring between trains in impossible.
> 
> (Serious answer, yes anything is possible. More likely that an existing scheduled train will be used, and Amtrak will treat the connection just like any other connection)
> 
> 
> 
> Has Amtrak ever done something like that during service disruptions? Or do they always just risk a missed connection and rebook pax if need be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> May we draw your attention to what was done at Washington DC for the Crescent last summer during the disruption?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could you remind me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Passengers were booked on existing Northeast Regional trains which operated with a baggage car during the Crescent termination at Washington.
Click to expand...

Don't some NERs normally operate with a baggage car otherwise?


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> Don't some NERs normally operate with a baggage car otherwise?


65/66/67.


----------



## zephyr17

Only the overnight 66/67


----------



## Ryan

zephyr17 said:


> Only the overnight 66/67


The post above yours correctly includes 65.


----------



## cpotisch

65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?


Yes, 66 is the daily northbound while 65/67 are the daily southbound, with the number depending on if it is a weekday or weekend.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?


You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself
Click to expand...

Elementary questions answered. Didn't know about that page.


----------



## blueman271

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself
Click to expand...

God forbid somebody come to an Amtrak forum and ask questions about Amtrak. How dare he!


----------



## jis

blueman271 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> God forbid somebody come to an Amtrak forum and ask questions about Amtrak. How dare he!
Click to expand...

Couldn't come up with anything to contribute but still had an urge to post eh?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> blueman271 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> God forbid somebody come to an Amtrak forum and ask questions about Amtrak. How dare he!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Couldn't come up with anything to contribute but still had an urge to post eh?
Click to expand...

I gotta say, not to be a crybaby (though I guess I am), but if someone asks a question (me in this instance), they might appreciate a friendlier response. If they already know the answer to their question, or how to easily get that answer, why would they bother asking it here? So you could have said "Go here for the timetables and route info." or "They run between Virginia Beach an Boston."

I hope this post doesn't come off as disrespectful, and apologize if it does.


----------



## frequentflyer

So this inconvenience is going to take place between Memorial Day and Labor Day..........................Does anyone else have a problem with that? The work couldn't be scheduled for March- May or September -November?

Yes, the work must be done, but in the midst of peak travel? Did this thought come up in the planning meetings?


----------



## jis

Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..


It is peak for the Chicago trains.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
Click to expand...

2 trains vs how many commuter trains? 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2 trains vs how many commuter trains?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Yes, thousands. But this track work sabotages all Empire Corridor trains. And those trains have peak ridership in the summer and early fall. Obviously this isn’t gonna happen, but wouldn’t winter be the ideal time to close those tracks?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2 trains vs how many commuter trains?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, thousands. But this track work sabotages all Empire Corridor trains. And those trains have peak ridership in the summer and early fall. Obviously this isn’t gonna happen, but wouldn’t winter be the ideal time to close those tracks?
Click to expand...

Sabotages? Nobody is sabotaging those trains. Track work is seriously needed and Amtrak, who knows its ridership, seems to think this to be the best time to do the track work. No matter when the track work is done, passengers are going to be inconvenienced.


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Yes, thousands. But this track work sabotages all Empire Corridor trains. And those trains have peak ridership in the summer and early fall. Obviously this isn’t gonna happen, but wouldn’t winter be the ideal time to close those tracks?


Poppycock! It does not sabotage any Albany train. They just run from GCT.

Only trains affected are four beyond Albany trains which includes the Lake Shore Limited.

I am sure the well being of the 428 other movements in Penn Station per day are considered to be way more important by all the stakeholders of Penn Station, including Amtrak. I am sure Amtrak would hate to lose movements on the NEC due to track failures, and even the Empire Corridor and Lake Shore Limited users will be displeased with unscheduled outages due to problems with the Spuyten Duyvil bridge, if it is not given the TLC of preventive maintenance in a planned shudown. That sort of thing is done by all responsible owners of infrastructure everywhere in the world.

The problem with closing in winter is that typically very little work gets done in the winter, so it is very inefficient to try to get such work done in the winter.

In short my friend, you are whistling in the wind.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
Click to expand...

[citation needed]

If you can’t manage a time table, I’m going to have to see the data behind that assertion.


----------



## Ryan

blueman271 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 65/66/67 are all overnights from BOS to NPN, right?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? You could crack open a timetable at amtrak.com and get these elementary questions answered for yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> God forbid somebody come to an Amtrak forum and ask questions about Amtrak. How dare he!
Click to expand...

Give a man a fish, and he’ll be hungry in a few hours. Teach him to fish and he’ll be able to fend for himself.

The kid is wandering around like a small child that wanders into a theater in the middle of the movie and asked incessant questions about what’s going on. Time to be a big boy and learn for yourself that which is simple.


----------



## Train2104

jis said:


> I am sure the well being of the 428 other movements in Penn Station per day are considered to be way more important by all the stakeholders of Penn Station, including Amtrak. I am sure Amtrak would hate to lose movements on the NEC due to track failures, and even the Empire Corridor and Lake Shore Limited users will be displeased with unscheduled outages due to problems with the Spuyten Duyvil bridge, if it is not given the TLC of preventive maintenance in a planned shudown. That sort of thing is done by all responsible owners of infrastructure everywhere in the world.


Especially given that many people use more than one stakeholder's trains, and if the mental association of "Amtrak" is "the guys who ruin my commute", said person is not likely to consider using Amtrak for their intercity travels. There's enough such people, let's not make more.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
Click to expand...

Which is why they are still running the train. Just like they ran the Crescent and shuttled the passengers. I'm not sure what the big deal is....particularly since not ONE of the people in this thread (myself included) have the final plan.

I'm sure you're fine with the crews trying to work on an underground tunnel and a movable bridge that is 118 years old during the the short, cold days of the winters. However, you tend to get more work done when you have the long days of summer....which is why most major track projects occur in the summer.

The funny thing is you're second guessing and criticizing a plan that isn't even made. Meanwhile, the passengers for the Adirondack, Maple Leaf and Ethan Allen haven't uttered a peep.

This is why nothing gets done.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is you're second guessing and criticizing a plan that isn't even made. Meanwhile, the passengers for the Adirondack, Maple Leaf and Ethan Allen haven't uttered a peep.
> 
> This is why nothing gets done.
Click to expand...

Are they being forced to change trains? That's why.

And if the Broadway were still running, CHI-NYP passengers wouldn't have to change trains either.


----------



## StriderGDM

So if I'm following the logic here... because a 100-200 passengers a day may be forced to change trains in ALB, Amtrak should scuttle this plan and more inconvience the 1000s of commuters going in and out of NYP every day.

And as has been pointed out, some of the work is to be done on the Spuyten Duyvil bridge. Amtrak should postpone that to what, the winter?

You know, I suspect if as much time spent hand-wringing over this was spent on lobbying for more money, Amtrak would be flush with cash.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is you're second guessing and criticizing a plan that isn't even made. Meanwhile, the passengers for the Adirondack, Maple Leaf and Ethan Allen haven't uttered a peep.
> 
> This is why nothing gets done.
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being forced to change trains? That's why.
Click to expand...


Although the plan is subject to change, let's see what the FIRST TWO POSTS of this thread stated:



Thirdrail7 said:


> Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer. *The majority will be diverted to GCT  while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.*
> 
> Keep a sharp watch.





Northeastern292 said:


> Last I heard is that everything south of ALB will be shuttle service* with everything north and west originating in either ALB* or (in the case of the Lake Shore) BOS.



So, YES Phillyfan, if things hold, those passengers MAY have to transfer as well.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> And if the Broadway were still running, CHI-NYP passengers wouldn't have to change trains either.


They don;t have to. Thanks to Senator Byrd, The Cardinal is around to help them out! It's a good thing he was elected, instead of your neighbor, Stephen Bloom who doesn't even want to fund another Pennsylvanian....let alone another long distance train.


----------



## bms

I think it would be worth the slight inconvenience of changing trains in Albany, if that means getting to use Grand Central instead of Penn Station. Perhaps at Grand Central, they'll even have a reasonable boarding process.


----------



## west point

Until Amtrak announces its plans were are just yelling into the wind !


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

bms said:


> I think it would be worth the slight inconvenience of changing trains in Albany, if that means getting to use Grand Central instead of Penn Station. Perhaps at Grand Central, they'll even have a reasonable boarding process.


If you prefer Grand Central you could always change to Metro-North at Poughkeepsie or Croton-Harmon.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Summer is actually not peak travel at Penn Station New York apparently. It is more like slow traffic time with schools off and people off on vacations elsewhere and such. That summer peak traffic is more of an LD thing. Not for commuter service, which is most of the traffic into and out of Penn Station..
> 
> 
> 
> It is peak for the Chicago trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is why they are still running the train. Just like they ran the Crescent and shuttled the passengers. I'm not sure what the big deal is....particularly since not ONE of the people in this thread (myself included) have the final plan.
> 
> I'm sure you're fine with the crews trying to work on an underground tunnel and a movable bridge that is 118 years old during the the short, cold days of the winters. However, you tend to get more work done when you have the long days of summer....which is why most major track projects occur in the summer.
> 
> The funny thing is you're second guessing and criticizing a plan that isn't even made. Meanwhile, the passengers for the Adirondack, Maple Leaf and Ethan Allen haven't uttered a peep.
> 
> This is why nothing gets done.
Click to expand...

Clearly the weight of evidence is against me. I should have done more research/thinking before posting. So I do apologize for that.


----------



## JoeBas

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> bms said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be worth the slight inconvenience of changing trains in Albany, if that means getting to use Grand Central instead of Penn Station. Perhaps at Grand Central, they'll even have a reasonable boarding process.
> 
> 
> 
> If you prefer Grand Central you could always change to Metro-North at Poughkeepsie or Croton-Harmon.
Click to expand...

Change... trains? Do those words go together without one of the Horsemen making an appearance?


----------



## RPC

There's plenty of historic precedent for this. Until the West Side Connector was built all these trains (including the LSL) ran into GCT. Amtrak managed to stock the cafe cars and LSL diner and ran a shuttle bus all day between the NYC stations. It was awkward, but it worked. (BTW, back in the day the Amtrak designations for the NYC stations were NYG and NYP - should we use those again?)


----------



## Seaboard92

Actually the three New York City codes are

NYG-Grand Central Terminal.

NYP- Pennsylvania Station.

NYS- Sunnyside Yard

And here is a bonus one.

HUD- Hudson Tower in New Jersey. It's a PV destination.


----------



## jis

Grand Central is still NYG. It never changed to anything else. And of course Penn Station is still NYP. That also has never changed. NYC is not a station code (nor a specific airport code either).



Seaboard92 said:


> Actually the three New York City codes are
> 
> NYG-Grand Central Terminal.
> NYP- Pennsylvania Station.
> NYS- Sunnyside Yard
> 
> And here is a bonus one.
> HUD- Hudson Tower in New Jersey. It's a PV destination.


Isn't Sunnyside SSYD or something like that?

HUD is the code for Hudson NY Amtrak station on the Empire Corridor. So the code for Hudson tower is some secret designation which probably confuses folks a bit too. Not something that is visible to the public through any reservation system.


----------



## nferr

Palmetto said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did that, and I think it's a great alternative. And being in sleeper class, I used the Met Lounge in DC. If one is in a hurry, then one should not be taking the train IMHO. If Amtrak wanted to, they could put a baggage car on an NER down to DC to solve the no-baggage-problem. I think they did that recently when the Crescent was terminating in DC instead of New York.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I live in CT 60 miles out of NYC. Been through Chicago many times and most often take the NEC-CL alternative mostly because it's easier to find roomettes on the Capital over the LSL. The timing is not much different. For me catching the train in Bridgeport it's still one transfer either in NYP for the LSL or WAS for the CL.


----------



## Thirdrail7

JoeBas said:


> Change... trains? Do those words go together without one of the Horsemen making an appearance?



Either the Horsemen or the words Broadway, Pittsburgh and/or Limited seem to appear.







jis said:


> Grand Central is still NYG. It never changed to anything else. And of course Penn Station is still NYP. That also has never changed. NYC is not a station code (nor a specific airport code either).
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the three New York City codes are
> 
> NYG-Grand Central Terminal.
> 
> NYP- Pennsylvania Station.
> 
> NYS- Sunnyside Yard
> 
> And here is a bonus one.
> 
> HUD- Hudson Tower in New Jersey. It's a PV destination.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't Sunnyside SSDY or something like that?
> 
> HUD is the code for Hudson NY Amtrak station on the Empire Corridor. So the code for Hudson tower is some secret designation which probably confuses folks a bit too. Not something that is visible to the public through any reservation system.
Click to expand...

SSYD is the currently used. NYS was used in the past but the Hell Gate Line is designated NYS for instructions and operations. It caused confusion.

The same goes for Hudson Yard. For private cars, HUD is often used on the manifests. However, to avoid confusion with Hudson, New York, the proper designation is XHU. This caused problems for Hunter (the former XHU), which is now X94.


----------



## KnightRail

Add the Cardinal into the discussion.

Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.


----------



## OBS

KnightRail said:


> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.


Here come the Superliners.....(again)?


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.


As predicted and eluded to:



Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the _*Cardina*_l and _*Cap *_to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via _*Regional*_ or _*Acela.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage? *
Click to expand...


I see it will not have connections, which is what plagued the CHI-NYP via WAS operation in the past. Once the decimation of the popular city pairs is complete, PhillyAmtrakFan may have his wish....by the end of the summer.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.


I don't see that on the site. Could you please post the link or page?

EDIT: On the booking page, the Cardinal indeed does not seem to be operating past WAS, but don't see it actually listed as a service alert.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that on the site. Could you please post the link or page?
Click to expand...

Perhaps it was in an internal memo. But I can verify it as someone posted on FB that their IND-PHL (or somewhere north of WAS) rez for sometime this summer showed only IND-WAS on the ticket.


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Here come the Superliners.....(again)?
Click to expand...

The booking page says Viewliners. If that was the plan but not finalized, would they keep it listed as Viewliner/Amfleet on that page?


----------



## OBS

cpotisch said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Here come the Superliners.....(again)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The booking page says Viewliners. If that was the plan but not finalized, would they keep it listed as Viewliner/Amfleet on that page?
Click to expand...

You are probably right....I was just speculating...


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Here come the Superliners.....(again)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The booking page says Viewliners. If that was the plan but not finalized, would they keep it listed as Viewliner/Amfleet on that page?
Click to expand...

Just because the website says something doesnt mean its a fact. It may hold true or it may not. There has been a lot going on lately and updating the website to say whether the Cardinal is running with Superliners or Viewliners is far from priority #1.


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the Cardinal into the discussion.
> 
> Starting with 50(29MAR2018) & 51(01APR2018), the Cardnial will not operate North of Washington until further notice.
> 
> 
> 
> As predicted and eluded to:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the _*Cardina*_l and _*Cap *_to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via _*Regional*_ or _*Acela.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see it will not have connections, which is what plagued the CHI-NYP via WAS operation in the past. Once the decimation of the popular city pairs is complete, PhillyAmtrakFan may have his wish....by the end of the summer.
Click to expand...

Apologies. Havent been following this one too closely since there seems to be much uncertainty and fluidity.


----------



## west point

Check reservations and your can get at least a 60% probability of what will operate. Now if still single level maybe there will be cut off cars in WASH for Silvers and Crescent ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Check reservations and your can get at least a 60% probability of what will operate. Now if still single level maybe there will be cut off cars in WASH for Silvers and Crescent ?


You are quite the dreamer, aren’t you? [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## greatcats

Within the last hour I read the above posts that starting in April the Cardinal will not operate north of Washington. I have a reservation for 2 in a roomette PHL-Chi on May 16. The booking page shows no connection from PHL. To Was. Called Amtrak- it seems this just came out and nobody has an answer as to how this is going to be handled and to call back Tues. in my opinion, they should put us on an Acela to DC.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## daybeers

greatcats said:


> Within the last hour I read the above posts that starting in April the Cardinal will not operate north of Washington. I have a reservation for 2 in a roomette PHL-Chi on May 16. The booking page shows no connection from PHL. To Was. Called Amtrak- it seems this just came out and nobody has an answer as to how this is going to be handled and to call back Tues. in my opinion, they should put us on an Acela to DC.


That would be a great PR and customer service move, but in reality you'll probably get put on a Regional from PHL to WAS.


----------



## cpotisch

daybeers said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the last hour I read the above posts that starting in April the Cardinal will not operate north of Washington. I have a reservation for 2 in a roomette PHL-Chi on May 16. The booking page shows no connection from PHL. To Was. Called Amtrak- it seems this just came out and nobody has an answer as to how this is going to be handled and to call back Tues. in my opinion, they should put us on an Acela to DC.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a great PR and customer service move, but in reality you'll probably get put on a Regional from PHL to WAS.
Click to expand...

That would be pretty ridiculous. Someone pays for first class and a direct ride, and in turn gets coach on an NER. Greatcats, if that happens call Amtrak as many times as is necessary to get them to comp you and put you on Acela (try for First Class). If the agent refuses, talk to a manager and explain that you paid for a roomette on the Card and will not accept coach on an inferior train.


----------



## PVD

Getting credit may not be a problem, but Acela FC may not be the best option. Generally, on trips I've taken using CL to Chicago, the system prices differently for a WAS connection vs the PGH connection because of the decreased sleeper time. For connection in WAS Acela, NER BC, or Coach, can be selected at different pricepoints. NYP to WAS or vice versa on an NER may be more than adequate. They may just offer the connection with choices, and refund the balance. That is way more likely than them not making an adjustment. You paid for a roomette to NY, and regardless of the way they you get from WAS to NY, you are entitled to the difference if any.


----------



## greatcats

Thank you for your input about our Cardinal trip. Yes, they may balk at putting us on an Acela, but I might settle for Business Class on the regional. While the lady I spoke with last night was nice enough, I was annoyed that they made these changes and did not yet arrange a connection and nobody seemed to know what to do with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## greatcats

Another alternative is to take 43 to Pittsburgh, which is a nice ride, but I would not care for getting on 29 at midnight. If they can’t provide me a satisfactory arrangement, then I will tell them to put me on the Capitol from DC. Not really a big deal- I am preceding this with a cultural river cruise in France!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

Are you on the Cardinal for the experience, or was there some anomaly that led it to price better than the CL? The CL arrival/departure in WAS certainly presents more options in terms of potentially switching trains towards NYP in Club Acela to an earlier one. It would likely get you to NYC much earlier. CL usually prices better, although that is not 100% foolproof. Of course, if you are checking bags, the time to pick it up or drop it off now has to be considered.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I is my suspicion that Amtrak is not providing a connection to NYP. The pax will be responsible to book their own.

My 50 was truncated at WAS after the Philly accident. I was notified that it would terminate at WAS. I called and they put me on a regional at no extra cost.

They may do the same for pax who already booked to NYP or from NYP when the call.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

When this occurred last year, appropriate arrangements were made. In this case, they have much more lead time to do it. I don't think they have an official list of what will be cancelled, truncated, or combined yet. There is a lot going on because of the need to shift some services to Grand Central....


----------



## niemi24s

The following Service alert was seen today on a query for CHI to BAL departing 3 April 2018:




A little fiddling with Arrow shows the Eastbound Cardinal truncated at WAS through 10 Nov 2018. That's about 7 months. Didn't check the Westbound Cardinal. Have a current sleeper reservation from CHI to BAL on the 22 May 2018 Cardinal but have yet to receive any change notice from Amtrak.


----------



## PVD

Looks like they are starting to make things "official"


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I would suggest a new thread for this topic to keep it separate from the Empire Service/Lake Shore.


----------



## cpotisch

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I would suggest a new thread for this topic to keep it separate from the Empire Service/Lake Shore.


I very much agree.


----------



## Thirdrail7

A Moderator or Administrator has changed the title to accurately reflect the impact of the various track projects that will impact the NYT district. That being said, we might as well throw in the cancellation of train 153 and 152. 127 and 110 will likely remain off the schedule until November.



AmtrakBlue said:


> I is my suspicion that Amtrak is not providing a connection to NYP. The pax will be responsible to book their own.
> 
> My 50 was truncated at WAS after the Philly accident. I was notified that it would terminate at WAS. I called and they put me on a regional at no extra cost.
> They may do the same for pax who already booked to NYP or from NYP when the call.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Even though the Cardinal is now temporarily truncated at Washington, it's still operating using Viewliners, right?


----------



## Triley

ParanoidAndroid said:


> Even though the Cardinal is now temporarily truncated at Washington, it's still operating using Viewliners, right?


No one knows. Nothing has been said either way, and has been covered in this thread.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## cpotisch

Wouldn't the only benefit of converting the Card to Superliners be to increase capacity? 'Cause it's not a very popular or high demand train, and capacity wouldn't DRASTICALLY increase by using Superliners. Additionally, switching Cardinal equipment and therefore accommodation types just adds to list of possible customer complaints (for those already booked). While most people probably won't care about it, some might complain and ask for some kind of compensation if the equipment is different: "I DON"T HAVE A WINDOW FOR MY ROOMETTE UPPER BUNK! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!". That example would be ridiculous and Amtrak obviously wouldn't do that, but my point is that the more stuff they change, the more complaints and hassle Amtrak has to deal with.


----------



## Ryan

1) Depends on how many cars you use.

2) They absolutely would do that if there were operational benefits to doing that (see: the fact that they have done so in the past).


----------



## Anderson

...wow, I stumbled into this discussion.

Serious question: The LSL clearly ran NYG-CHI back in the 70s/80s/early 90s. I know NYS isn't easily accessible from NYG (it's doable, but it involves a messy tangle of connections), so how was the LSL serviced back then? I am presuming at some facility that doesn't accommodate Amtrak equipment regularly now, but beyond that I have no idea.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

ParanoidAndroid said:


> Even though the Cardinal is now temporarily truncated at Washington, it's still operating using Viewliners, right?


The earlier discussion was there were no spare Superliners so they don't really have a choice then. If they do have spare Superliners and this frees up Viewliners you know what I'm going to do next (although this would only free up two sets per week and it looks like they are trying to keep trains out of Penn Station not add more trains to it.


----------



## willem

cpotisch said:


> Wouldn't the only benefit of converting the Card to Superliners be to increase capacity? 'Cause it's not a very popular or high demand train, and capacity wouldn't DRASTICALLY increase by using Superliners. Additionally, switching Cardinal equipment and therefore accommodation types just adds to list of possible customer complaints (for those already booked). While most people probably won't care about it, some might complain and ask for some kind of compensation if the equipment is different: "I DON"T HAVE A WINDOW FOR MY ROOMETTE UPPER BUNK! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!". That example would be ridiculous and Amtrak obviously wouldn't do that, but my point is that the more stuff they change, the more complaints and hassle Amtrak has to deal with.


If I had booked a Viewliner roomette and Amtrak switched me to a Superliner roomette, that would be a big deal. Your example is not ridiculous, because of the window but even more because of the headroom difference. The Viewliner roomette is vastly superior to the Superliner roomette.


----------



## cpotisch

willem said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the only benefit of converting the Card to Superliners be to increase capacity? 'Cause it's not a very popular or high demand train, and capacity wouldn't DRASTICALLY increase by using Superliners. Additionally, switching Cardinal equipment and therefore accommodation types just adds to list of possible customer complaints (for those already booked). While most people probably won't care about it, some might complain and ask for some kind of compensation if the equipment is different: "I DON"T HAVE A WINDOW FOR MY ROOMETTE UPPER BUNK! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!". That example would be ridiculous and Amtrak obviously wouldn't do that, but my point is that the more stuff they change, the more complaints and hassle Amtrak has to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had booked a Viewliner roomette and Amtrak switched me to a Superliner roomette, that would be a big deal. Your example is not ridiculous, because of the window but even more because of the headroom difference. The Viewliner roomette is vastly superior to the Superliner roomette.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly agree with you.




I think we're in the minority, though, given all the people who despise the toilet layout.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Triley said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though the Cardinal is now temporarily truncated at Washington, it's still operating using Viewliners, right?
> 
> 
> 
> No one knows. Nothing has been said either way, and has been covered in this thread.
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

It is still being mulled even though they are programming single level equipment.



Anderson said:


> ...wow, I stumbled into this discussion.
> 
> Serious question: The LSL clearly ran NYG-CHI back in the 70s/80s/early 90s. I know NYS isn't easily accessible from NYG (it's doable, but it involves a messy tangle of connections), so how was the LSL serviced back then? I am presuming at some facility that doesn't accommodate Amtrak equipment regularly now, but beyond that I have no idea.


It was largely serviced in GCT. Remember, GCT had a heavy presence in those days. However, if there were major issues, cars would swap at ALB.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though the Cardinal is now temporarily truncated at Washington, it's still operating using Viewliners, right?
> 
> 
> 
> The earlier discussion was there were no spare Superliners so they don't really have a choice then. If they do have spare Superliners and this frees up Viewliners you know what I'm going to do next (although this would only free up two sets per week and it looks like they are trying to keep trains out of Penn Station not add more trains to it.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are a couple of reasons to go to Superliners. One major reason is they clearly aren't planning to have connections from north of NYP. As such, that eliminates a large swath of your travel. You wouldn't really need a big set of Superliners to accomplish this. You could probably knock it out with 4 cars and a bag.

The second reason is a bit morbid. Remember, that accident in Cayce knocked out a single level set. You won't see the salvageable equipment in service for quite some time. That will make things tight during the peak season, particularly in the case of the Cardinal. It has been running with an additional viewliner for a couple of years now...and you just lost two.

So, I can see a good business case for a small Superliner set. it would not "free up" a single level set or free up viewliners. It would merely compensate for the set that was lost in Cayce.


----------



## cpotisch

Interestingly, while the Cardinal's truncation is listed all over the place on amtrak.com, there is no mention of the Lake Shore. The booking page still shows the LSL as running NYP-CHI, and there's no service alert. Has anyone on here with a pre-existing reservation been notified of a change to their ticket?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Interestingly, while the Cardinal's truncation is listed all over the place on amtrak.com, there is no mention of the Lake Shore. The booking page still shows the LSL as running NYP-CHI, and there's no service alert. Has anyone on here with a pre-existing reservation been notified of a change to their ticket?


Why would they mention the LSL or any other service to GCT when there has been no confirmation? Let's take this back to the beginning:



Thirdrail7 said:


> *Now that things are firming up, **there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this **summer.* The majority will be diverted to GCT while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.
> 
> Keep a sharp watch.



Note the term "firming up."

Additionally, it was asked when this may occur and the YOU asked is this confirmed. I will quote the answers below:



Thirdrail7 said:


> fixj said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *IF this occurs, it will happen at some point** after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.*
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> *So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out.* We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.
Click to expand...

Try to keep up with your posts, Cpotisch.


----------



## niemi24s

Thirdrail7 said:


> While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.


When using "Modify Trip" for my pre-existing reservation (not rezzy) on the Cardinal from CHI to BAL the following was displayed: "A portion of your trip has been canceled. For Assistance, contact an Amtrak representative at 1-800-USA-RAIL (800-872-7245) for assistance." 

I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, while the Cardinal's truncation is listed all over the place on amtrak.com, there is no mention of the Lake Shore. The booking page still shows the LSL as running NYP-CHI, and there's no service alert. Has anyone on here with a pre-existing reservation been notified of a change to their ticket?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would they mention the LSL or any other service to GCT when there has been no confirmation? Let's take this back to the beginning:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer.* The majority will be diverted to GCT while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.
> 
> Keep a sharp watch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Note the term "firming up."
> 
> Additionally, it was asked when this may occur and the YOU asked is this confirmed. I will quote the answers below:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fixj said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.*
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> *So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out.* We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try to keep up with your posts, Cpotisch.
Click to expand...

I just found it surprising that things hadn't firmed up with the LSL, at this point.


----------



## Ryan

We are three months out, in your experience when do you expect to see something like this firmed up?


----------



## PVD

We shouldn't forget that the moves of anything to Grand Central involves discussions with and the approval of an outside party, MTA/MNRR. That is not the case with WAS-NYP trains. Even if Amtrak knew what it wanted to do, nothing can be official until MNRR signs off.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PVD said:


> We shouldn't forget that the moves of anything to Grand Central involves discussions with and the approval of an outside party, MTA/MNRR. That is not the case with WAS-NYP trains. Even if Amtrak knew what it wanted to do, nothing can be official until MNRR signs off.


That is key. There are major issues involving the Park Avenue Tunnel and as the article mentioned, the need to have the FL9s available to pull the the trains through the tunnel. There were also talks about borrowing cab cars. All of that will help determine how many trains (if any) actually make it to GCT.

Dutchrailnut has a better grasp of the needs and progress on that front...I hope.

Where are you Dutchman?


----------



## Anderson

niemi24s said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.
> 
> 
> 
> When using "Modify Trip" for my pre-existing reservation (not rezzy) on the Cardinal from CHI to BAL the following was displayed: "A portion of your trip has been canceled. For Assistance, contact an Amtrak representative at 1-800-USA-RAIL (800-872-7245) for assistance."
> 
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
Click to expand...

Uh, there's MARC service WAS-BAL (quite heavy on weekdays) and if you arrive early you could probably swap onto an earlier Regional if you're not checking bags. Even if you are, under the circumstances you could probably short-check to WAS.

Edit: BTW, lemonade from lemons on this but if the LSL _does_ either run as a full train to BOS or runs out of NYG, I do want to take that this summer for the novelty. Ditto if we get a Superliner Cardinal..._that_ is always a treat.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.
> 
> 
> 
> When using "Modify Trip" for my pre-existing reservation (not rezzy) on the Cardinal from CHI to BAL the following was displayed: "A portion of your trip has been canceled. For Assistance, contact an Amtrak representative at 1-800-USA-RAIL (800-872-7245) for assistance."
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
Click to expand...

66 was probably chosen to cover late 50’s. As someone suggested, check MARC’s schedules between WAS & BAL.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

I believe 66 is one of the rare NER trains with checked baggage, that also makes it a good choice as a guaranteed connection. But an on time Cardinal is in Washington with ample opportunity to switch to earlier trains, you could be almost 2 hours late and still make an ontime Palmetto w/o any trouble if you aren't moving checked bags...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

PVD said:


> I believe 66 is one of the rare NER trains with checked baggage, that also makes it a good choice as a guaranteed connection. But an on time Cardinal is in Washington with ample opportunity to switch to earlier trains, you could be almost 2 hours late and still make an ontime Palmetto w/o any trouble if you aren't moving checked bags...


Yes, 66 does carry checked bags. In fact, it is the only northbound NER that does.


----------



## niemi24s

Thanks for the suggestions and comments, but I just got a full refund for the MKE - CHI - BAL trip and used 43% of it for a non-stop two hour flight from MKE to BWI. The trip on the Cardinal will just have to wait for another day.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Anderson said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, there's MARC service WAS-BAL (quite heavy on weekdays) and if you arrive early you could probably swap onto an earlier Regional if you're not checking bags. Even if you are, under the circumstances you could probably short-check to WAS.
Click to expand...


And if you arrive late? According to Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database, from 1/1/17 to 3/10/18, 50's average delay into WAS is 1'11". On a Sunday, that places the arrival AFTER the last scheduled MARC train. Indeed, there are multiple examples of 50 not only missing the last MARC on weekdays, it also misses 66. The next train is 3:15am.

As Blue mentioned, they do appear to have a transfer built to 66. However, this is what caused the connection problems in the past. How long do you hold 66 for connections versus how long do you let the connecting passengers wait for 190?

66 DOES have SUBSTANTIAL recovery time en route but there are numerous track projects planned. Some of the recovery time will be necessary.


----------



## cpotisch

There is so much significant stuff covered in this thread. I feel like it should be pinned.


----------



## greatcats

I am interested to see what connection the cook up from PHL to 51. That should not be too difficult.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

So, one thing I can say from the ESPA meeting:

There is MAJOR work, which will take months, which will be done on the underpinnings of Spuyten Duyvil bridge, which is antique and was damaged by Sandy. They are actually going to lift the bridge span out of the way, which is necessary so that they can do the work without getting Coast Guard approval to close the water channel, which they would not get.

(They are basically doing every other piece of work they can on the Empire Connection while this is happening, for obvious reasons.)

Obviously the removal of the Spuyten Duyvil bridge prevents any train from entering Penn Station by the Empire Connection. Every other decision is determined by that and they have not finalized operational plans.

(P.S. I'm sure people here will now speculate about bringing the Lake Shore Limited into Penn via the Oak Point Link and the Hell Gate Bridge, or via New Rochelle, or by running it down the Springfield line, but I think you can see why this might not happen.)

Anyway, I hope this clarifies one thing: this time the relocation of Empire Service trains to GCT is not driven by work on the NEC, it is driven specifically by the Spuyten Duyvil work.


----------



## cpotisch

It is pretty frustrating that Amtrak would just change Cardinal pax' e-tickets without including a connecting train. Someone might not notice, and could end up stick in D.C.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> It is pretty frustrating that Amtrak would just change Cardinal pax' e-tickets without including a connecting train. Someone might not notice, and could end up stick in D.C.


Do you know for a fact that existing ticket holders have not been given a connection?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty frustrating that Amtrak would just change Cardinal pax' e-tickets without including a connecting train. Someone might not notice, and could end up stick in D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know for a fact that existing ticket holders have not been given a connection?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Didn't someone say that their Cardinal e-ticket now only showed CHI-WAS? That it didn't have a connection listed?


----------



## Train2104

Regionals 152 and 153 will not operate effective 3/24. These are not commission hour trains, they're weekend morning service. I wonder why they're affected and not others; after all NYP work on weekends is consistent across the daytime hours and so is the commuter rail schedule.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> There is so much significant stuff covered in this thread. I feel like it should be pinned.


If everything is pinned, nothing is pinned.


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is so much significant stuff covered in this thread. I feel like it should be pinned.
> 
> 
> 
> If everything is pinned, nothing is pinned.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I feel like if six things are pinned, six things are pinned. It seems like a pretty reasonable number of pins.


----------



## Ryan

What would pinning solve? It would put it at the top where it already is by virtue of the never ending stream of posts like these.

In other words, “nothing”.

Your skill as a forum administrator is matched only by your skill at railroad operations.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty frustrating that Amtrak would just change Cardinal pax' e-tickets without including a connecting train. Someone might not notice, and could end up stick in D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know for a fact that existing ticket holders have not been given a connection?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Didn't someone say that their Cardinal e-ticket now only showed CHI-WAS? That it didn't have a connection listed?
Click to expand...

Information has changed. There are now connections to corridor services, with the exception of 51 on Sundays. There doesn't seem to be a connection, probably because 65 is the only train that arrives in time to intercept.



Train2104 said:


> Regionals 152 and 153 will not operate effective 3/24. These are not commission hour trains, they're weekend morning service. I wonder why they're affected and not others; after all NYP work on weekends is consistent across the daytime hours and so is the commuter rail schedule.


They are taking multiple tracks o/o/s over the weekends. Weekends are tough with all of the tracks available since the trains all meet in NYP at the top of the hour. It is not uncommon to have every track in the station full, with others holding out for station space. Add an outage, and you're behind the 8 ball. While that would impact 152 more than 153, there needs to be balance.


----------



## Train2104

Thirdrail7 said:


> They are taking multiple tracks o/o/s over the weekends. Weekends are tough with all of the tracks available since the trains all meet in NYP at the top of the hour. It is not uncommon to have every track in the station full, with others holding out for station space. Add an outage, and you're behind the 8 ball. While that would impact 152 more than 153, there needs to be balance.


I know that. But if it's too tight at the 8am hour, it'll also be too tight at the 3pm hour, etc.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Train2104 said:


> I know that. But if it's too tight at the 8am hour, it'll also be too tight at the 3pm hour, etc.



That's just it. Even with track work, I don't believe it is too tight at 8am. The Rahway Rockets and their associated deadhead movements aren't up and running and neither are the NEC semi-express trains. That's 4 trains that aren't in the picture. Albany and Boston service have outbound departure and Keystone service leaves on the 9am hour. None of them have an inbound presence.

152 arrives with a large number of inbound trains...but not as many outbound trains and now that 147 doesn't arrive from SPG and dwell in the station, that leaves an additional rail.

If anything, 152 is the target and 152 is canceled merely for the balance. I still think it could work though. Perhaps they want to hold on to that set of equipment in case they DO divert the Empire service to GCT.


----------



## Anderson

Thirdrail7 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, there's MARC service WAS-BAL (quite heavy on weekdays) and if you arrive early you could probably swap onto an earlier Regional if you're not checking bags. Even if you are, under the circumstances you could probably short-check to WAS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And if you arrive late? According to Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database, from 1/1/17 to 3/10/18, 50's average delay into WAS is 1'11". On a Sunday, that places the arrival AFTER the last scheduled MARC train. Indeed, there are multiple examples of 50 not only missing the last MARC on weekdays, it also misses 66. The next train is 3:15am.
> 
> As Blue mentioned, they do appear to have a transfer built to 66. However, this is what caused the connection problems in the past. How long do you hold 66 for connections versus how long do you let the connecting passengers wait for 190?
> 
> 66 DOES have SUBSTANTIAL recovery time en route but there are numerous track projects planned. Some of the recovery time will be necessary.
Click to expand...

If he arrived late and got 66 as a connection then he's covered by the existing ticket; if he's early, presumably he'd just "voucher out" and take MARC (or, gods help him, Greyhound is also in WAS and has several late-night departures). As to holding 66, that's a tricky question (which IMHO should primarily be motivated by how much padding there is south of New Haven versus how much is needed for those projects), but the odds are pretty good that if 50 is _that_ late into WAS, it'll be known a few hours out.

Going with Google, your weekday options Washington-Baltimore are:

2210: AMTK 66

2240: MARC 452

2315: Greyhound

0001: Greyhound

0210: Greyhound

0310: AMTK 190

Amtrak and Greyhound are not materially equal in my mind; the question is really "How much do I prefer getting to Baltimore before 0400?" I can see a value judgment either way on this (especially since it's not like there's a decent all-night diner in that part of DC to kill time at).


----------



## greatcats

Update on altered Cardinal ticketing: Since I found out by non Amtrak means about this train being cut back to Washington, thus altering my Philadelphia to Chicago ticket for May 16, the discussion with the agent a few days ago amounted to being told to call back, as it was not known how this would be handled. Last night I saw that the connecting Corridor train is #111, leaving PHL at 7:01am instead of 8:15 on the Cardinal. I did manage to get a nice agent, Sheila, promptly on the phone just now and my friend and I are now ticketed on #111 in Business Class. While I would hav e preferred the original way, I can live with this. When I first read in these threads about the Empire Service West Side Line being closed, I wondered what this would have to do with the Cardinal. OK, so they are performing more track work in Penn Station, New York, which I am well aware tends to be a zoo. But the westbound 51 departs at 6:45am and the return trip arrives late in the evening, so I am puzzled over why they chose to omit this train and cut it back to DC. Please enlighten me, New York experts.


----------



## cpotisch

Cardinal #51 is shown as back to normal on Nov. 14 on the booking page. #50 is back on Nov. 13. Why does it seem that the Chicago trains are the only ones getting "amputated"? The Cardinal leaves through the same NYP exits as any other train.


----------



## PVD

The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....


I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.

Other idea:

Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....
> 
> 
> 
> I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
> 
> Other idea:
> 
> Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....
> 
> 
> 
> I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
> Other idea:
> 
> Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.
Click to expand...

That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.


----------



## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL has to be, all trains using the West side are, Cardinal is only 3 days a week, and anyone going to Chicago can make better time (and usually spend less money) connecting to the CL even when it runs to NY. The only imperatives for Card travel are cities where it is the only choice, it's not a Chicago thing....There are other NEC trains cut....
> 
> 
> 
> I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
> Other idea:
> 
> Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.
Click to expand...

Arggghh, good point. I do feel like it's not a huge deal if it takes longer for the Card to get from NYP to WAS, if the alternative is it doesn't go to NYP at all. But the possibility of delays going north/east could definitely screw up any attempt at corridor service.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get why the Empire Corridor trains aren't running to NYP, but given the Cardinal is only 3/week, I feel like it wouldn't get much in the way of the track work. If it ran daily, it would be occupying that many more slots and tracks.
> Other idea:
> 
> Doesn't NER #183 leave NYP for WAS the same time as the Cardinal (7:05 AM)? In which case would it be possible to combine the trains (or just extend the Card for Regional passengers), and still only use one departure slot, thus not affecting track work? The same thing could be done with #50/#186.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing #183 and #186 make a few more stops than the Cardinal does, so they would actually slow down the Cardinal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is also true, but I doubt that's the main issue. Such a combination would have low OTP eastbound which would not be popular with NEC passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Arggghh, good point. I do feel like it's not a huge deal if it takes longer for the Card to get from NYP to WAS, if the alternative is it doesn't go to NYP at all. But the possibility of delays going north/east could definitely screw up any attempt at corridor service.
Click to expand...


You aren't looking at the big picture. Everyone is focused on NYP. There are MULTIPLE track projects occurring on the NEC. That is why the Acelas aren't all leaving on the hour and had running time added to them. That is why 110/127 aren't operating and other trains are rescheduled.

51/50 is an oddball train. 51 in particular is a menace on the days it runs on the NEC. It gets in the way since it only runs a few days a week and contrary to popular opinion, slots are indeed tight at 645am, particularly as this train travels towards the WAS.

If anyone recalls (which judging by the posts, you don't) when operation of 51/50 between WAS-NYP resumed in the 2000s, they did indeed combine it with regional service. 51 was combined with 183 on WE-FR and 131 on SU. 50 was supposed to combine with 188 (which is now 186).

It tanked then and it will be an issue now.

Remember, you're attempting to combine a reserved train, long distance train, with a loading plan and baggage service, that tops out at 110mph (remember the viewliners anyone?) with a regional train, that typically has a short but multiple station stops that was scheduled to operate at 125mph. You had a 14-17 car mish-mosh train that got in the way of everything else around it. Not only was it routinely late en route, it dragged down surrounding trains as it lost time.

As for 50, i referenced it before. What happens when (not if, when) 50 is late? What are you combining it with? Are you going to hold 186 for it? You're not liekly to hold a corridor train for multiple hours waiting for a connection. As such, now you have to attempt to combine it with something else and that is not going to work out too well or you'll end up racking up the expenses by running it as an extra.

Even when it managed to be on time, you had this lumbering 14-16 car train, making a lot of stops (like Aberdeen...nothing says Aberdeen more than a 16 car train on a 3 car platform) where the train would not fit or tying up the interlocking surrounding the stations when you spotted it for loading.

It didn't work out and I wouldn't anticipate it working out well these days. That is why they operated it as a separate train.

The problem is there are MULTIPLE issues along the corridor this production season but everyone is focused on NYP and GCT.


----------



## west point

Maybe the early departure of the Cardinal would have interference problems with the work on the east side finishing up for the night ? That is unable to get from SSY to NYP


----------



## greatcats

Third rail- thank you for your information. That is the kind of insight I was seeking.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> Maybe the early departure of the Cardinal would have interference problems with the work on the east side finishing up for the night ? That is unable to get from SSY to NYP


Not likely. Perhaps you should peruse a NJT schedule and count how many trains are massing around NYP at 645am.


----------



## Anderson

@Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains _should_ be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.


----------



## JRR

Why not make the Cardinal just s DC to Chicago train and forget the NYP part?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Anderson said:


> @Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains _should_ be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.


They are capable of 125 MPH but need to be certified to operate at these speeds.


----------



## jis

Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Anderson said:


> @Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains _should_ be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.





brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Thirdrail: For some reason I thought the Viewliners were 125 MPH capable? I recall a lot of discussion to the effect that once the heritage diners and baggage cars were retired, the LD trains _should_ be able to bump up from 110 to 125. But I will admit that I could be in error on this.
> 
> 
> 
> They are capable of 125 MPH but need to be certified to operate at these speeds.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the V-Is are currently only capable of 110 mph, but the plan is to make some minor changes to bump the speed to 125. V-IIs are certified for 125 right out of the box.


----------



## PVD

I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment? Can't remember specifics....


----------



## Thirdrail7

Without driving this off topic:



jis said:


> Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


They aren't. PVD is on the right path:



PVD said:


> I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment?


The above and a few minor things would need adjustments. However, don't look for this to occur anytime soon....if at all.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Thirdrail7 said:


> Without driving this off topic:
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure that the VL-Is are 125 capable without making a few small changes?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't. PVD is on the right path:
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sort of remember something from previous discussion that they were designed for, but not certified to....is it maybe wheel profile and slight suspension adjustment?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The above and a few minor things would need adjustments. However, don't look for this to occur anytime soon....if at all.
Click to expand...

Weren't they working on certifying them a few years ago? I found this quote from you in a thread from 2015.


Thirdrail7 said:


> Actually, it is a joint test between NJT and Amtrak to get the ALP-45s and Viewliner 1s ready for 125mph.


Was this project abandoned?


----------



## west point

AFAIR The test runs were successful on modified equipment. Amtrak and NJ Transit may be waiting for all equipment to be modified before certifying them for 125 ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Was this project abandoned?


Abandoned is a strong word. Different groups have different priorities. We'll have more information towards the summer of Amtrak2.0.



west point said:


> AFAIR The test runs were successful on modified equipment. Amtrak and NJ Transit may be waiting for all equipment to be modified before certifying them for 125 ?


We're trying not to drive this (further) off topic.....remember?


----------



## west point

Wonder how many trips the Amtrak crew will have to take with pilots to get qualified on the route to NYG ?


----------



## zephyr17

Hopefully more and better than the ones they did on the Point Defiance Bypass in Washington state. Maybe not with more than a couple of people in the cab.


----------



## railiner

west point said:


> Wonder how many trips the Amtrak crew will have to take with pilots to get qualified on the route to NYG ?


Shouldnt take that much, besides, Id guess there may be some that were around before the Empire trains were rerouted to Penn Station...just a refresher for them?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

a lot has changed since the 90's, and not many of those fossils still working, but don't forget Amtrak was running trains into GCT last year and currently is running training trains in and out 7 days a week to get all their engineers on the route qualified, it is only march and schedule won't take effect till june.


----------



## railiner

"Fossil's"?

Hey!!! I resemble that remark....Do I deny it? No, I just resemble it....


----------



## west point

It may be several summers that Amtrak will have to go to NYG ? As well the SD bridge repair may take who knows how long ?.


----------



## railiner

I wonder if at some time, Penn Station track work would cause Amtrak to send some Boston trains over to GCT, as well? That would be 'nostalgic'....


----------



## PVD

Power would be an issue......


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Power would be an issue......


P32ACDMs fronted by FL-9 Cabs. Yeah it will be a mess on the whole, maybe requiring engine change at NHV.


----------



## PVD

Would their deal with NYS allow their use (the P32) for that type of service? Not sure if they have enough of them any way.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Would their deal with NYS allow their use (the P32) for that type of service? Not sure if they have enough of them any way.


They could lease from NYS or MNRR. I am not suggesting that there are any available. I am merely stating what is technically feasible. I have no way of knowing whether any arrangements can be made to get the right equipment, or if such will ever be needed. Afterall this is all hypothetical .....


----------



## PVD

​Fair point, and MN has sunk a few bucks into rebuilding theirs recently, being in good shape makes freeing a few up easier. Not sure if they are done, or are down a couple at a time for the shop. But as you point out, it is only hypothetical.


----------



## cpotisch

Don’t the Boston trains (NER) run with ACS-64s? Not P32s, right?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Don’t the Boston trains (NER) run with ACS-64s? Not P32s, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Of course they run with ACS-64s. Why on earth would they run with P32s?


----------



## Palmetto

cpotisch said:


> daybeers said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the last hour I read the above posts that starting in April the Cardinal will not operate north of Washington. I have a reservation for 2 in a roomette PHL-Chi on May 16. The booking page shows no connection from PHL. To Was. Called Amtrak- it seems this just came out and nobody has an answer as to how this is going to be handled and to call back Tues. in my opinion, they should put us on an Acela to DC.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a great PR and customer service move, but in reality you'll probably get put on a Regional from PHL to WAS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would be pretty ridiculous. Someone pays for first class and a direct ride, and in turn gets coach on an NER. Greatcats, if that happens call Amtrak as many times as is necessary to get them to comp you and put you on Acela (try for First Class). If the agent refuses, talk to a manager and explain that you paid for a roomette on the Card and will not accept coach on an inferior train.
Click to expand...

Not exactly sure if that's the case. Transferring from sleeping car at NYP on the way to Boston, the passenger is in Business Class on the NE Regional train.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t the Boston trains (NER) run with ACS-64s? Not P32s, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they run with ACS-64s. Why on earth would they run with P32s?
Click to expand...

I was confused by a couple posts I thought were saying that they did use P32s.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t the Boston trains (NER) run with ACS-64s? Not P32s, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they run with ACS-64s. Why on earth would they run with P32s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was confused by a couple posts I thought were saying that they did use P32s.
Click to expand...

Show me where I said that. We have been talking about a hypothetical situation involving diverting of a few Boston to New York trains to GCT. . Pay attention!


----------



## Palmetto

niemi24s said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.
> 
> 
> 
> When using "Modify Trip" for my pre-existing reservation (not rezzy) on the Cardinal from CHI to BAL the following was displayed: "A portion of your trip has been canceled. For Assistance, contact an Amtrak representative at 1-800-USA-RAIL (800-872-7245) for assistance."
> 
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
Click to expand...

If the Cardinal is late, #66 might be a wonderful connection.


----------



## jis

The real question is what happens when 50 is so late into WAS that 66 has already left WAS. That has happened to me on two occasions when I had a transfer to a Regional planned at Washington so as to be able to get off at Metropark. One time they managed to kindly stop the Card at Metropark to let me off, as it was running on the platform track. The other time it was running on track 2 so I was carted over to Newark to then change to 67 to get to Metropark!

I guess in this new scheme of things one gets to Amtrak's guest at a hotel in Washington waiting to catch an early morning Regional, unless of course they just let you sit in Union Station to catch the 3am Regional.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> The real question is what happens when 50 is so late into WAS that 66 has already left WAS. That has happened to me on two occasions when I had a transfer to a Regional planned at Washington so as to be able to get off at Metropark. One time they managed to kindly stop the Card at Metropark to let me off, as it was running on the platform track. The other time it was running on track 2 so I was carted over to Newark to then change to 67 to get to Metropark!
> 
> I guess in this new scheme of things one gets to Amtrak's guest at a hotel in Washington waiting to catch an early morning Regional, unless of course they just let you sit in Union Station to catch the 3am Regional.


Years ago they just left people sitting in the station waiting for 190/160 (3AM). They would grab snacks and soda from Commissary and pass out to pacify people.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

Wow. I attempted to read through this topic but gave up after page 7. All I know for sure is that I had a reservation for train 51 NYP to Chicago in June and that train will now originate in Washington, DC and will require a 5:30 AM Regional connection from NYP. I was able to change my reservation to the LSL still scheduled to leave NYP 3:40 PM so I think this topic as regards the LSL to much ado about nothing.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Wow. I attempted to read through this topic but gave up after page 7. All I know for sure is that I had a reservation for train 51 NYP to Chicago in June and that train will now originate in Washington, DC and will require a 5:30 AM Regional connection from NYP. I was able to change my reservation to the *LSL still scheduled to leave NYP 3:40 PM so I think this topic as regards the LSL to much ado about nothing. *


Till Amtrak finalizes how they handle the NYP-ALB part of the LSL


----------



## jis

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Wow. I attempted to read through this topic but gave up after page 7. All I know for sure is that I had a reservation for train 51 NYP to Chicago in June and that train will now originate in Washington, DC and will require a 5:30 AM Regional connection from NYP. I was able to change my reservation to the LSL still scheduled to leave NYP 3:40 PM so I think this topic as regards the LSL to much ado about nothing.


Don’t worry. It will change or LSL will be swimming in Spuyten Duyvil creek. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

I can add something else I was told at the ESPA meeting: the "issue with the Park Avenue Tunnel" is fairly minor, though I'm sure it's causing planning headaches. The outside two tracks have no way to evacuate at the sides (this is historical: it was a two track tunnel with two very tight one-track tunnels added on either sides). Due to Amtrak's historical choice of locomotives which can't evacuate at the front or back, this means they have to borrow a Metro-North locomotive to run on the outer tracks, or run on the inner pair of tracks only.


----------



## railiner

neroden said:


> I can add something else I was told at the ESPA meeting: the "issue with the Park Avenue Tunnel" is fairly minor, though I'm sure it's causing planning headaches. The outside two tracks have no way to evacuate at the sides (this is historical: it was a two track tunnel with two very tight one-track tunnels added on either sides). Due to Amtrak's historical choice of locomotives which can't evacuate at the front or back, this means they have to borrow a Metro-North locomotive to run on the outer tracks, or run on the inner pair of tracks only.


That's interesting...I never knew about that restriction...thanks for the info.


----------



## PVD

The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.


----------



## railiner

PVD said:


> The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.


Yeah...I just took a look at photo's of the MN loco's, and see those hatches where the Amtrak units have their number's....another new bit of info for me....thanks!


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.


I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.


----------



## keelhauled

It might depend on what they do with the train at Grand Central. If they turn it on the loop track they probably don't need the cab cars. Engineer leaves through the FL9 and passengers through last coach. If they run push-pull then they need a cab car on one end with a vestibule--even if there were Metroliners to spare, most if not all have had the doors welded closed.

I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> It might depend on what they do with the train at Grand Central. If they turn it on the loop track they probably don't need the cab cars. Engineer leaves through the FL9 and passengers through last coach. If they run push-pull then they need a cab car on one end with a vestibule--even if there were Metroliners to spare, most if not all have had the doors welded closed.
> 
> I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.


But most Empire Corridor Amfleets aren't equipped for push-pull operation, right? Didn't they have to add some 'wires and hoses' to the Keystone Amfleets to run push-pull?


----------



## PVD

AM 1 including the split club/cafe/lounge are push pull compatible (per OTOL roster). The FL-9 would serve as the operating position as it is escape compatible, I am pretty sure the MARC cars have a door.


----------



## keelhauled

cpotisch said:


> But most Empire Corridor Amfleets aren't equipped for push-pull operation, right?


Right. None are so far as I know. I was just speaking in terms of an internal shuffle of Amtrak equipment.


----------



## west point

Thought it was understood that as the AM-1s went through level 2 overhaul one item would be to install wiring for push pull operation ?t


----------



## Thirdrail7

keelhauled said:


> I don't think anyone has seen either MARC can cars or the FL9s move towards Albany so it is probably up in the air still.


Yes...no one has seen them. Wait:



All AM-1s are push pull compatible. AM-2s, on the other hand are not. That is why I mentioned they _may_ need the AM-1 set from 153 and 152 for this project..


----------



## west point

Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.


----------



## cpotisch

Why are they going to MARC for cab cars when Metro North has plenty and they are literally in the same station?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Why are they going to MARC for cab cars when Metro North has plenty and they are literally in the same station?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Because Metro North does not have any spares and MARC does. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## railiner

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.
Click to expand...

The FL-9's do have a nose door....

https://www.google.com/search?q=metro+north+fl9&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&biw=1920&bih=900&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SHmUaOKGxOj7fM%253A%252CODgwIlVr3QKBcM%252C_&usg=__LPmrp6FHj_Bot_9323ysPGEO-mE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj8stbtrvXZAhWknuAKHfz6AvkQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=qW20u1f6ePEz3M:


----------



## cpotisch

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other option for running in the outer tunnels which has been the cause for much of the speculation here, revolves around the use of cab cars or revived FL-9s to provide means of evacuation for the engineer. We shall soon see. The MNRR P32 dual modes have an escape hatch in the nose, the Amtrak do not. The over versus under third rail difference is somewhat easier to tackle, it was done last year, but less trains were involved, so the outer tunnel issue was not the obstacle it will be this year.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been confused about the whole FL-9 thing. So the thinking is that they would have a cab car or FL-9 mounted in front of the P32, with the engineer controlling the train from there? That way they could escape in an emergency, since the Amtrak P32s don't have an escape hatch? But the cab cars don't have escape hatches in the nose either, so why are those necessary? Sorry if I'm way off here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The FL-9's do have a nose door....
> https://www.google.com/search?q=metro+north+fl9&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&biw=1920&bih=900&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SHmUaOKGxOj7fM%253A%252CODgwIlVr3QKBcM%252C_&usg=__LPmrp6FHj_Bot_9323ysPGEO-mE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj8stbtrvXZAhWknuAKHfz6AvkQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=qW20u1f6ePEz3M:
Click to expand...

I was asking if the MARC cab cars have nose doors, not the FL-9s.


----------



## Ryan

You’re wrong about that as well. Have you ever actually seen one?


----------



## PVD

Thank you, I was thinking about posting a picture, but you saved me from remembering proper form for attribution. I have seen a picture of them (yours I believe) on Wikipedia and it is pretty clear. No need now.....going back to my Sunday Times....


----------



## Ryan

It is easier when they are yours.


----------



## Northeastern292

PVD said:


> Would their deal with NYS allow their use (the P32) for that type of service? Not sure if they have enough of them any way.


First, Metro-North is running at max capacity. I don't think they can spare a P32 for what Amtrak is looking for. Second, the phasing of the HEP between the two batches of P32's are different. Might be 480v, but it's there. Personally, I'd like to see the MNRR fleet made universal, but MNRR likes not being the standard.

As for someone asking about capacity, GCT is a TOTALLY different animal during the Central years than what it is today. For one thing, East Side Access took care of the lower loop and Madison Yard, Grand Central North tore out a few tracks, etc. MNRR has made GCT into a commuter station with pride. When I was born, off-peak service wasn't what it was today, hourly to Poughkeepsie on weekends, no Saturday and Sunday round trip through trains between GCT and Dover Plains (Wassaic), forget that Metro-North is in general running more trains overall. The beast is different, and MNRR is glad they have the station to themselves. On some station pairs, MNRR is running a FIFTEEN MINUTE headway during rush hour. Amtrak trains don't run with Shinkansen precision. That said, MNRR is cutting back a little Harlem Line service for a few months (track and station work in Westchester County), so there might be some wiggle room.

I've argued that everything except for the Lake Shore should be a through train, but we'll be lucky to get what we get. The MTA is trying to run its commuter railroads with an attitude best reserved for rapid transit. Hell, I'd like to see Amtrak operate a few trains out of GCT permanently once Penn Station Access is opened (also contingent on ESA) and some New Haven Line service is moved to Penn, but that's another can o'worms.

TL;DR: Metro-North is protective of its railroad.


----------



## PVD

That comment was a response to the idea of Amtrak running their P32 to Boston, it was not a reference to the MNRR. But I don't see the HEP issue, in a typical US rail scenario, with a single unit providing HEP at 480V 3 phase, phase differences between units would not come into play. As long as the phases are nominally 120 degrees apart, any 3 phase equipt isn't going to care, and neither will the step down transformers for most of the trains power needs. Even duplicate units require syncing/paralleling gear, or you would have an out of phase "problem" which can be catastrophic. P32 run the power through an inverter, and phasing and frequency should be pretty consistent. I thought the 32s used the same GMG195A1 alternator, I could certainly be mistaken.


----------



## west point

The phase problem may be similar to METRA. As we understand the output on Metra trains is reversed to what Amtrak uses. You cannot run 3 phase motors back on items such as HVAC. That may be a reason there is not observed loco interchange METRA - Amtrak. However a special HEP connector that reverses the output could be used but the logistics of insuring that connector never got lost into inventory ?


----------



## PVD

So it would be a connection/hookup problem rather than something weird. Solving the A-B-C phase scenario with a connector adapter would be easy, as you indicated.


----------



## cpotisch

LSL still showing up as CHI-NYP. When is that track work expected to begin?


----------



## jld

I believe thirdrail said shortly after memorial day.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jld said:


> I believe thirdrail said shortly after memorial day.


And he said they’re still working out the details.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.



I'd be interested in seeing an Amtrak train that was operating push pull with an AM-2 in the consist. This doesn't mean a train with an engine on each end of the train in pull-pull operation (like some of the ALB trains). I'd like to say a train with an AM-2 in the consist in push pull operation because I don't recall ever seeing one. Can you link me?


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing an Amtrak train that was operating push pull with an AM-2 in the consist. This doesn't mean a train with an engine on each end of the train in pull-pull operation (like some of the ALB trains). I'd like to say a train with an AM-2 in the consist in push pull operation because I don't recall ever seeing one. Can you link me?
Click to expand...

Obviously they'd have to modify the car for it to be a proper push-pull train. That said, would it be possible to stick a locomotive on each end, and run them independently? So you wouldn't have the front engine running the rear engine, the rear would just effectively be deadheading? Or would that be incredibly inefficient or damage the locomotive or something?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing an Amtrak train that was operating push pull with an AM-2 in the consist. This doesn't mean a train with an engine on each end of the train in pull-pull operation (like some of the ALB trains). I'd like to say a train with an AM-2 in the consist in push pull operation because I don't recall ever seeing one. Can you link me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously they'd have to modify the car for it to be a proper push-pull train. That said, would it be possible to stick a locomotive on each end, and run them independently? So you wouldn't have the front engine running the rear engine, the rear would just effectively be deadheading? Or would that be incredibly inefficient or damage the locomotive or something?
Click to expand...

That should work just fine.


----------



## PVD

Basically, for trains to operate push/pull, you need to extend the control signal cables from one end to the other which involves connectors at each car end as well as cable/wiring the length of each car. To the best of my knowledge this was not done on the AM-2 series. A locomotive at each end is fine as JIS indicates, you can deadhead the back. Only one will be supplying HEP. A while back, one of the California services (Metrolink maybe) borrowed freight locos to place at one end while concerns with cab car safety were addressed. Those cars were designed for push pull, I only mention it because the HEP had to come from the passenger unit. So yes, you could do it, but where would the spare locos come from?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have observed some AM-2s with push pull capability and others not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing an Amtrak train that was operating push pull with an AM-2 in the consist. This doesn't mean a train with an engine on each end of the train in pull-pull operation (like some of the ALB trains). I'd like to say a train with an AM-2 in the consist in push pull operation because I don't recall ever seeing one. Can you link me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously they'd have to modify the car for it to be a proper push-pull train. That said, would it be possible to stick a locomotive on each end, and run them independently? So you wouldn't have the front engine running the rear engine, the rear would just effectively be deadheading? Or would that be incredibly inefficient or damage the locomotive or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That should work just fine.
Click to expand...


. Without communications between the engines, there is no way to monitor what is happening and this because a major issue when it comes to axle fault detection. So, if you do it this way versus the PVD explained, you'll need to man the extra engine...which is why it is avoided when possible.


----------



## jis

You’d have to staff both engines [emoji51]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

Which we (hopefully) all agree is neither practical from an available equipment or manpower standpoint at any reasonable cost. Like a typical conversation with senior management before I retired "no sir, I'm not giving you an excuse why we can't do that, but I've got a bunch of good reasons why we shouldn't"


----------



## west point

Source of some AM-2s having the pass thru loco control was several days observing Silver service in Orlando. Granted only the car control cable was connected. All the V-1 sleepers and V-2 diners had the connectors for the loco control. As well the AM-1 lounges did as well except on one out of 8 observed. Then the AM-2 coaches some had the connectors others did not. Maybe being installed during level 2 overhauls ?

Then maybe we did not know what we were observing ?


----------



## cpotisch

Yeah, so the only point of having independent locomotives at each end would be to avoid wying, at the cost of half the horsepower and twice the crew running them. Easier to modify the AM-IIs one time and have smooth sailing from there on out.


----------



## PVD

When you see a LD train running with 2 units, they are almost always together, either elephant style or back to back, set up for MU control, both units can run, one or both for traction, one for HEP. This eliminates the need for the train to be wired for push pull wiring, and the second crew. It does not allow for eliminating looping or wyeing. I'm not sure this is really a big issue in the running of the SL LD trains, I'm sure someone else will fill us in if it is.


----------



## Thirdrail7

niemi24s said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I suspect connecting service at WAS is off the table, I am interested in seeing how they will accommodate the passengers with existing reservations.
> 
> 
> 
> When using "Modify Trip" for my pre-existing reservation (not rezzy) on the Cardinal from CHI to BAL the following was displayed: "A portion of your trip has been canceled. For Assistance, contact an Amtrak representative at 1-800-USA-RAIL (800-872-7245) for assistance."
> 
> I've not yet called, but an Arrow query just now shows the WAS to BAL portion of the Cardinal trip replaced with NER #66 arriving BAL at 10:52pm instead of the Cardinal's original 7:16pm. Too late for this old coot, so I'll cancel and fly instead.
Click to expand...

I guess someone was feeling your pain and decided they were feeling optimistic about 50's OTP. The connecting train to 50 (615pm arrival) has been changed from 66 (10:15p) to 90 (8:30p). That's a little tight for my liking, particularly when it comes to transferring luggage and passengers. When CSX starts implementing the heat restrictions, this may delay 90, which is another long distance train that is already combined with a corridor train.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Information has changed. There are now connections to corridor services, with the exception of 51 on Sundays. There doesn't seem to be a connection, probably because 65 is the only train that arrives in time to intercept.





greatcats said:


> Update on altered Cardinal ticketing: Since I found out by non Amtrak means about this train being cut back to Washington, thus altering my Philadelphia to Chicago ticket for May 16, the discussion with the agent a few days ago amounted to being told to call back, as it was not known how this would be handled. Last night I saw that the connecting Corridor train is #111, leaving PHL at 7:01am instead of 8:15 on the Cardinal. I did manage to get a nice agent, Sheila, promptly on the phone just now and my friend and I are now ticketed on #111 in Business Class. While I would hav e preferred the original way, I can live with this. When I first read in these threads about the Empire Service West Side Line being closed, I wondered what this would have to do with the Cardinal. OK, so they are performing more track work in Penn Station, New York, which I am well aware tends to be a zoo. But the westbound 51 departs at 6:45am and the return trip arrives late in the evening, so I am puzzled over why they chose to omit this train and cut it back to DC. Please enlighten me, New York experts.



I guess someone took a good look at this whole scenario and decided they wanted consistency. To assist with the lack of a Sunday connection, it was decided that the connecting train to 51 is 89. I mean, its not like 89 doesn't already carry NEC commuters (off the cancelled 181) and luggage for its own long distance passengers. Let's stuff 50's connecting passengers in there as well...and let them make New Brunswick and Princeton Junction while we're at it. We can finally tap the lucrative Rutgers University and Princeton University to University of Virginia in Charlottesville market!!

Let the good times roll!!


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> I guess someone was feeling your pain and decided they were feeling optimistic about 50's OTP. The connecting train to 50 has been changed from 66 to 90. That's a little tight for my liking, particularly when it comes to transferring luggage and passengers. When CSX starts implementing the heat restrictions, this may delay 90, *which is another long distance train that is already combined with a corridor train.*


The Palmetto is combined with a corridor train? Which one (or are you just talking about those NYP-WAS coaches)?


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> Then maybe we did not know what we were observing ?


Probably.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess someone was feeling your pain and decided they were feeling optimistic about 50's OTP. The connecting train to 50 has been changed from 66 to 90. That's a little tight for my liking, particularly when it comes to transferring luggage and passengers. When CSX starts implementing the heat restrictions, this may delay 90, *which is another long distance train that is already combined with a corridor train.*
> 
> 
> 
> The Palmetto is combined with a corridor train? Which one (or are you just talking about those NYP-WAS coaches)?
Click to expand...


Here. This is what I mean: Amtrak replacing 2 northeast regional trains with Palmetto??


----------



## Anderson

Yeah...if I'm not mistaken, when the "toaster pop" happens at WAS, I think 89/90 drop/add some coaches in DC.


----------



## west point

This Palmetto substitution has happened before. Northbound no problem as diesels detach at WASH and ACS-64 backs onto train with as many AM-1 coaches needed. South bound due to CAT limitations max electric + 2 coaches. However Palmetto has had more coaches attached to rear that are dropped.


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> This Palmetto substitution has happened before. Northbound no problem as diesels detach at WASH and ACS-64 backs onto train with as many AM-1 coaches needed. South bound due to CAT limitations max electric + 2 coaches. However Palmetto has had more coaches attached to rear that are dropped.



Actually, they typically used 79, the Carolinian for the Cardinal's connection. Additionally, WTC can cut 4 cars and an engine off the head end.

You've been on quite the roll as of late buddy. You might want to regroup and dream it up again before you make any more posts (your spillway explanation not withstanding, of course!)


----------



## Thirdrail7

Anderson said:


> Yeah...if I'm not mistaken, when the "toaster pop" happens at WAS, I think 89/90 drop/add some coaches in DC.


This is why I'm not a fan. You're setting yourself up for failure. Sure, some people will look and say "I'm not waiting 3 hours for a connection. I'll find another mode of transportation." However, I'd rather passengers make that sort of decision than to have false hope of making a connection to an earlier train. In other words, the wait to 66 may be long but you'll likely make that schedule. If you promise them 90 and they miss it, that is bad all around. How long do you intend to delay 90 waiting for 50's transfers? How many corridor passengers will turn their nose up if this train (which is typically late anyway) becomes later?

Additionally, 66 is a small train. What happens if it is sold out. Where will you squeeze 50's passengers?

If anything, I would have preferred advertising 66 and if 50 happens to be on time, accommodating them on 90.


----------



## cpotisch

If I'm making a connection, I generally try for at least a four hour layover, since that gives me time to leave the station and see the sites, get a bite to eat, etc. A two or three hour layover is somewhat the worst of both worlds, since it's generally not enough time to see the sites, but is long enough to make the wait in the station miserable.


----------



## PVD

I agree that it is way better to have time to get out and "explore". But probably not a factor at that hour around WUS


----------



## Seaboard92

At that hour there is nothing to do in DC. Once the government closes for the day most of the sidewalks are empty. Unless you go to Georgetown


----------



## PVD

Not as bad as before, a few decent bars and restaurants walking distance to station, some stuff around the arena, but not my choice of cities to walk around at night


----------



## sitzplatz17

Actually, there’s quite a bit to do around Union Station in the evenings now. The H street NE area has a free streetcar from Union Station that runs until at least midnight on weekdays and there’s countless bars and restaurants that are open to at least 10pm on weeknights, MUCH later on weekends.

As for PVDs comments about safety, that’s completely laughable. While the area might have been somewhat concerning a couple years ago, it’s a vibrant, safe neighborhood. Just keep your usual “city wits” about you and you’ll be fine.

If you need a guide, DM me and I can give you some tips about my neighborhood.





Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

^^^ Nailed it. DC is awesome at night, provided you possess an ounce of common sense.


----------



## Seaboard92

I've never had a problem in the district at night. I've lived off 3rd NE and J street. And Walked to and from the Capitol/Union station at three am. I've also walked the full length of the mall at ten pm multiple times.


----------



## john small berries

Same for me. My wife was in DC for about 2 years for work so we visited a lot of the city on weekends, around Union Station and DuPont Circle were favorites. Even walked down the mall to the Smithsonian Metro to get back to Crystal City after dinner near the capitol on a few occasions. Just keep your eyes open and enjoy.


----------



## Thirdrail7

50's first run as a CHI-WAS is currently 6 hours down and projected to lose more time. This is will definitely miss 90 and I can't imagine them holding 66. It looks like the connections will have to board the 3:15am.

Perhaps we should start a separate thread for this operation?

What say you, Mods?


----------



## Train2104

Thirdrail7 said:


> 50's first run as a CHI-WAS is currently 6 hours down and projected to lose more time. This is will definitely miss 90 and I can't imagine them holding 66. It looks like the connections will have to board the 3:15am.
> 
> Perhaps we should start a separate thread for this operation?
> 
> What say you, Mods?


50's first run to WAS was 50 (29), which arrived WAS on time.


----------



## Thirdrail7

NYC is doomed for another ‘Summer of Hell’



> Amtrak on Tuesday announced a massive, multimillion-dollar repair project scheduled for this summer that will force changes on several commuter lines.
> 
> “Critical reconstruction” work will be performed on the Empire Tunnel, Spuyten Duyvil Bridge and Track 19 in New York Penn Station, Amtrak said.
> 
> *As a result, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Adirondack and Maple Leaf trains will be rerouted from New York Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal between May 26 and Sept. 4.**The Lake Shore Limited will only run between Boston and Chicago, with New York City and Hudson Valley travelers connecting from Empire Service trains at Albany-Rensselaer.*
> 
> The repairs will cost between $45 million and $50 million.“While the schedules have yet to be finalized, there will be fewer service impacts and schedule changes compared to Summer 2017,” Amtrak said, referring to the eight weeks of repairs that sparked a “Summer of Hell” at Penn Station.



Time is ticking and there are still issues with the GCT plan. We'll see how this turns out. Who knows? Maybe, they'll cut doors in the noses of the P32s before this is all over.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

did Amtrak not mount all Cab signal and ACSES gear in that nose ??


----------



## Thirdrail7

They actually put all of that PTC stuff in giant box behind the fireman's side seat. Still, even if they cut a door in the nose, it would probably impact something useful....like the controls and dash and there isn't a likely way to build steps.

Is the Park Avenue tunnel still undergoing work on weekends this summer Dutch?


----------



## west point

Has anything been noted if the LSL will have cut off cars at Albany ? That would save one partial consist as the inbound # 48 cars could make close same day connections to outbound LSL from BOS ?


----------



## Trogdor

west point said:


> Has anything been noted if the LSL will have cut off cars at Albany ? That would save one partial consist as the inbound # 48 cars could make close same day connections to outbound LSL from BOS ?


There’s basically no chance they could reliably service and turn the equipment same-day in Albany. If 48 was on time, you’d have maybe 3-4 hours to service, clean , inspect and restock the train. If 48 is late, you’d have even less time.


----------



## cpotisch

Well, at least it's all official. I'm tempted to catch a Maple Leaf this summer, just to enjoy a departure from Grand Central. Penn Station is a s**thole by comparison. Actually, Penn Stations is a s**thole compared to pretty much anything.


----------



## PVD

Yesterday's Albany Times Union reported that Amtrak confirmed it, but was still short of details on exactly what the final arrangements will be When we see a memo from Amtrak rather than a 3rd party report the picture will (hopefully) be clearer.


----------



## Anderson

So, a serious question: With the Adirondack being shunted to NYG, how is this going to affect transfers to/from said train?


----------



## PVD

Still awaiting official word....


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Still awaiting official word....


The LSL is official. You can no longer book anything south/east of ALB. NYG isn’t currently listed on the booking page for the other trains, but I believe is shown on the service alerts page.


----------



## PVD

By official, I was referring to what the alternate connections will be. That includes trains like ADK or EA as mentioned above.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> By official, I was referring to what the alternate connections will be. That includes trains like ADK or EA as mentioned above.


Oh. My bad.


----------



## PVD

In the VL thread I mentioned the article in yesterday s Albany paper stating Amtrak had confirmed the LSL situation, but did not offer clarity on the actual operating plan.


----------



## JoeBas

My money is on the ever-popular "Self-Transfer".


----------



## Dutchrailnut

from Amtrak : https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/amtrak-announces-summer-infrastructure-renewal-work/


----------



## Bob Dylan

JoeBas said:


> My money is on the ever-popular "Self-Transfer".


Ditto!


----------



## Northeastern292

By reading the press release, it looks as if everything except the Lake Shore Limited will run as through trains.

As for the self-transfer, there's nothing wrong with it, passengers on the Downeaster do it all the time!

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## neroden

We'll see how much this hurts LSL traffic. NY-Chicago is pretty big business on the LSL, and there's a lot of checked luggage on that city pair too. Is there a connection which allows for checked luggage transfer at Albany? I don't think people will be too happy to wait an extra day for their bags if they have to go via Boston or DC.

Anderson's new policy is to make the monthly reports less informative, so he may well conceal ridership and revenue numbers, but I predict it'll hurt. Financially.

Apart from the checked baggage issue, most people will probably tolerate the train change in Albany.


----------



## PVD

AFAIK, the only checked baggage between NY and Albany is the LSL. Boston passengers did across the platform transfer for an extended period while the work was done in Albany, I realize it involved less passengers, but the it wasn't too bad. How was baggage dealt with then?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

PVD said:


> AFAIK, the only checked baggage between NY and Albany is the LSL. Boston passengers did across the platform transfer for an extended period while the work was done in Albany, I realize it involved less passengers, but the it wasn't too bad. How was baggage dealt with then?


There was a baggage car on the Shuttle 448/449 with luggage transferred from one train to another. There is not typically any other train with baggage service over the Empire Corridor although the connecting Empire Service train could temporarily run with a baggage car like the NER did for the Crescent last year. However, an area for checked bags would need to be set up at Grand Central.


----------



## Anderson

PVD said:


> By official, I was referring to what the alternate connections will be. That includes trains like ADK or EA as mentioned above.


This is what I was wondering as well. I presume either a self-transfer or a bus connection will run (I think they've done the latter before), but seeing a ton of luggage-hauling pax making for the ACE lines is gonna be a sight.

Reading the announcements...Amtrak _staffing _Grand Central? And here I only thought they _cut _staffed stations  Boy, this is going to be an interesting summer...

(One thing I wish right now is that the Adirondack was (1) timetable-reliable and (2) ran about an hour earlier SB. To hell with making a connection over at NYP, I'd love to be able to enjoy supper at the Oyster Bar upon arrival!)


----------



## jld

I imagine checked bags will have to go to boston and then come back down the overnight regional to NYP, if GCT doesn't have the facilities...but that would be confusing if baggage is delivered other than to the ticketed terminus



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, the only checked baggage between NY and Albany is the LSL. Boston passengers did across the platform transfer for an extended period while the work was done in Albany, I realize it involved less passengers, but the it wasn't too bad. How was baggage dealt with then?
> 
> 
> 
> There was a baggage car on the Shuttle 448/449 with luggage transferred from one train to another. There is not typically any other train with baggage service over the Empire Corridor although the connecting Empire Service train could temporarily run with a baggage car like the NER did for the Crescent last year. However, an area for checked bags would need to be set up at Grand Central.
Click to expand...


----------



## cpotisch

jld said:


> I imagine checked bags will have to go to boston and then come back down the overnight regional to NYP, if GCT doesn't have the facilities...but that would be confusing if baggage is delivered other than to the ticketed terminus


That doesn't seem particularly efficient, since passengers to NYC would have to wait several hours for their bags. Probably a lot easier to just stick a baggage car on the connecting Empire Service.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine checked bags will have to go to boston and then come back down the overnight regional to NYP, if GCT doesn't have the facilities...but that would be confusing if baggage is delivered other than to the ticketed terminus
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't seem particularly efficient, since passengers to NYC would have to wait several hours for their bags. Probably a lot easier to just stick a baggage car on the connecting Empire Service.
Click to expand...

That would involve setting up a baggage office at Grand Central though. I don't think there is any plan to set up any significant establishment at GCT for operating the diverted trains there, let alone a baggage office.


----------



## PRR 60

Do the Viewliner II baggage cars have trainline cables and connections for push-pull?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine checked bags will have to go to boston and then come back down the overnight regional to NYP, if GCT doesn't have the facilities...but that would be confusing if baggage is delivered other than to the ticketed terminus
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't seem particularly efficient, since passengers to NYC would have to wait several hours for their bags. Probably a lot easier to just stick a baggage car on the connecting Empire Service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would involve setting up a baggage office at Grand Central though. I don't think there is any plan to set up any significant establishment at GCT for operating the diverted trains there, let alone a baggage office.
Click to expand...

The overnight NERs get into NYP at 2:30 AM. That would mean that pax with checked bags would have to get from GCT to NYP, wait around for probably seven hours well past midnight, and claim their bags. I doubt that would work.


----------



## cpotisch

PRR 60 said:


> Do the Viewliner II baggage cars have trainline cables and connections for push-pull?


I believe they do not.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> The overnight NERs get into NYP at 2:30 AM. That would mean that pax with checked bags would have to get from GCT to NYP, wait around for probably seven hours well past midnight, and claim their bags. I doubt that would work.


Yes. Not convenient, though they do not have to run to Penn Station and wait there for seven hours. In effect they will get their baggage the next day at Penn Station. They can go to their hotel or home and sleep the night.

One thing that Amtrak could do is something like what United offers ... shipping the bag via package service to a destination address, so that picking up at a station is not involved. Since this is just a temporary situation, a temporary contract with the likes of UPS might just work out better. But of course there is a cost involved.


----------



## Northeastern292

cpotisch said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the Viewliner II baggage cars have trainline cables and connections for push-pull?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe they do not.
Click to expand...

And with Amtrak having to do push-pull into GCT, not having that is going to be an issue. 
I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## cpotisch

Northeastern292 said:


> I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


A lot. There are more than 1500 train cars in the Amtrak system. Assuming 25% are already push-pull compatible, that leaves around 1140 cars to retrofit. I don't know the exact costs but I can't imagine that being cheap.


----------



## Northeastern292

cpotisch said:


> Northeastern292 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app
> 
> 
> 
> A lot. There are more than 1500 train cars in the Amtrak system. Assuming 25% are already push-pull compatible, that leaves around 1140 cars to retrofit. I don't know the exact costs but I can't imagine that being cheap.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. It still boggles my mind that Amtrak turns trains in DC and Boston, despite both being stub-end terminals for the most part (less so DC, with the through tracks for the trains to the South).
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## PVD

If you don't wye, loop, or run the power around, aside from the push pull wiring, you need cab cars, cabbage, npcu, or an engine/power car in sufficient quantity to run your schedule.


----------



## cpotisch

Is there a reason Amtrak rarely runs locomotives back-to-back? 'Cause that would obviously make it much easier for a train to change direction without wying.


----------



## Trogdor

cpotisch said:


> Northeastern292 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app
> 
> 
> 
> A lot. There are more than 1500 train cars in the Amtrak system. Assuming 25% are already push-pull compatible, that leaves around 1140 cars to retrofit. I don't know the exact costs but I can't imagine that being cheap.
Click to expand...

Are you just making up assumptions and numbers regarding what cars are push-pull and which aren't?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Is there a reason Amtrak rarely runs locomotives back-to-back? 'Cause that would obviously make it much easier for a train to change direction without wying.


On the NEC that Northeastern is discussing, the electric engines are double ended, so back to back or not is not an issue.

Also, since most corridor diesel trains run with a single engine, there is no possibility of running back to back. There are only a few LD trains that run with two engines, and they typically have 12 to 24 hours to turn and be serviced. They go to a service facility with a Wye or a balloon loop anyway.

In the past Metroliners were turned both in Washington and New York, in platform, by merely unhooking the engine (an AEM-7) at one and and hooking on another engine (another AEM-7) at the other end, and of course flipping the seats inside the cars. I don;t think this has been done since the Metroliners were discontinued.



Trogdor said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northeastern292 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app
> 
> 
> 
> A lot. There are more than 1500 train cars in the Amtrak system. Assuming 25% are already push-pull compatible, that leaves around 1140 cars to retrofit. I don't know the exact costs but I can't imagine that being cheap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you just making up assumptions and numbers regarding what cars are push-pull and which aren't?
Click to expand...

It is quite obvious that he is just winging it




If one wished one can get a somewhat better estimate using information from the OTOL Amtrak Roster web page.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> Is there a reason Amtrak rarely runs locomotives back-to-back? 'Cause that obviously makes it much easier to change directions.


Most of the trains with two locomotives are long distance routes where quick turn-around times are not essential. In addition, the seats would have to be turned around so the benefits would be limited.


----------



## cpotisch

Trogdor said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northeastern292 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the mechanics, but how hard would it to make the entire Amtrak fleet 100% push-pull compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app
> 
> 
> 
> A lot. There are more than 1500 train cars in the Amtrak system. Assuming 25% are already push-pull compatible, that leaves around 1140 cars to retrofit. I don't know the exact costs but I can't imagine that being cheap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you just making up assumptions and numbers regarding what cars are push-pull and which aren't?
Click to expand...

There are objectively more than 1500 cars on the roster. The vast majority of trains don't run push-pull. I was just giving a rough, approximate number as to the percentage.

EDIT: I was just looking at the roster, and it seems that around 1/3 of cars are already push-pull.


----------



## PVD

I would have guessed a bit higher, since it's virtually all AM1 are, Talgo sets run with a cab, and a pretty good number of SL-1 (in the 70 range) as well as California cars. I don't know the Horizons off the top of my head....


----------



## Trogdor

PVD said:


> I would have guessed a bit higher, since it's virtually all AM1 are, Talgo sets run with a cab, and a pretty good number of SL-1 (in the 70 range) as well as California cars. I don't know the Horizons off the top of my head....


Horizons are definitely push-pull.


----------



## mycalpal

As far as transferring from the Lake Shore Limited at Albany to take the Empire into NY Grand Central, one issue that may be problem is the small seating capacity of the Albany-Rensselaer Station. I ride the Lake Shore several times a year and when I get off at Albany, most of the NYP passengers do not get off the train, even when they split off the BOS section. In the summer the LSL typically has 4 NYP coaches and most of the people are headed to the city, I see this especially when I ride in the BOS sleeper and have to walk the length of the train to get to the diner. Hopefully, the passengers transferring won't have a long wait.


----------



## PVD

Thanks. I thought so but was not sure As many times as I have connected in Chicago, it has never been to a Horizon consist.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine checked bags will have to go to boston and then come back down the overnight regional to NYP, if GCT doesn't have the facilities...but that would be confusing if baggage is delivered other than to the ticketed terminus
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't seem particularly efficient, since passengers to NYC would have to wait several hours for their bags. Probably a lot easier to just stick a baggage car on the connecting Empire Service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would involve setting up a baggage office at Grand Central though. I don't think there is any plan to set up any significant establishment at GCT for operating the diverted trains there, let alone a baggage office.
Click to expand...

It does appear they are going to have a manned presence at GCT with some Amtrak agents in the ticket booths as well as some quik-trak kiosks - with ALL of the empire trains going to grand central this time it definitely warrant having a staff presence there. Probably just send a few employees over that normally work at Penn. Will be interesting to see what they do.


----------



## PVD

NYSDOT kicks in a good buck for Empire Service. Would not be the least bit surprised if some level of presence for ticketing and boarding assistance, as well as providing information to passengers on transfers to NYP were part of the agreements. We will know soon enough.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> NYSDOT kicks in a good buck for Empire Service. Would not be the least bit surprised if some level of presence for ticketing and boarding assistance, as well as providing information to passengers on transfers to NYP were part of the agreements. We will know soon enough.


Yup. I would be exceedingly pleasantly surprised if that includes a checked baggage facility though.


----------



## west point

All V-2s that have been observed by us have the pass thru for MU control of locos. Now that brings up -

Pure speculation. Could one of the reasons that 3 diners were skipped was CAF did not install those Mu cables ? If they were skipped that might require a major refit ? .


----------



## cpotisch

west point said:


> All V-2s that have been observed by us have the pass thru for MU control of locos. Now that brings up -
> 
> Pure speculation. Could one of the reasons that 3 diners were skipped was CAF did not install those Mu cables ? If they were skipped that might require a major refit ? .


I feel like since there are so many reasons why certain cars could be skipped, it is highly unlikely that that in particular would have been the reason. I think a more likely reason would be that there were some defects in the car bodies or something.


----------



## Seaboard92

There is something else that I'm surprised someone more like ThirdRail hasn't mentioned. The cars also have to be able to clear the electrical equipment on the track. For instance there are several PVs that can't run into NYG because of tanks, generators, etc under the car that could contact the third rail.

While Amfleets were designed with NYG in mind because it was still an active terminal then. The Viewliners were not designed with that in mind. Heritage sleeping cars handled the last sleeping line out of there.

I don't know if the Viewliners could clear the Third rail.


----------



## keelhauled

Sorry, I don't follow. If Viewliners clear Metro-North's third rail from Croton-Harmon south, why wouldn't they be able to in Grand Central?


----------



## jis

Yeah. I don’t believe any version of Viewliners have any problem with clearing third rails of various types in the Northeast.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Dutchrailnut

third rail clearance on straight rail and long switches is different than a location like GCT were switches are shorter and obstructions like signals are closer.


----------



## greatcats

If I may chime in on this topic, the LSL might not be running into GCT because since that is not an Amtrak facility anymore, there are not proper facilities or a convenient yard to service the sleepers and diners.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

greatcats said:


> If I may chime in on this topic, the LSL might not be running into GCT because since that is not an Amtrak facility anymore, there are not proper facilities or a convenient yard to service the sleepers and diners.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


That is already known, but the possibility of the connecting Empire Service carrying a baggage car is being discussed.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Allow me to make all of this easier for you:



cpotisch said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the Viewliner II baggage cars have trainline cables and connections for push-pull?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe they do not.
Click to expand...






It has less to do with that. Trains that are scheduled to operate with back to back engines are typically in place because there isn't a place to turn them. The rest of the run elephant style so if something happens to the lead unit, you're not stuck with an improperly pointed engine that would do you any good. Additionally, you can set the engine off to rescue another train if necessary.

This happens quite a bit, particularly in the south. 20 may set off an engine for 80 or 176 while 98 may set off an engine for 174, 84, 86 etc.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

If and when the LSL is on time. There will be two train set in the Albany-Rensselaer Station. Even worse if the LSL is running late there will be two set of passengers inside the station.

Going to be interesting.


----------



## Trogdor

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> If and when the LSL is on time. There will be two train set in the Albany-Rensselaer Station. Even worse if the LSL is running late there will be two set of passengers inside the station.
> 
> Going to be interesting.


Maybe you have a different definition of “on time” than the rest of us, but the eastbound should leave at 3:05 pm and the westbound doesn’t get in until 6 pm.

No different than it has been for quite some time.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Trogdor said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If and when the LSL is on time. There will be two train set in the Albany-Rensselaer Station. Even worse if the LSL is running late there will be two set of passengers inside the station.
> 
> Going to be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you have a different definition of on time than the rest of us, but the eastbound should leave at 3:05 pm and the westbound doesnt get in until 6 pm.
> No different than it has been for quite some time.
Click to expand...

However, there may be two train sets in the station and yard complex between those hours as any cars that are removed/added there will not same-day turn.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Trogdor said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If and when the LSL is on time. There will be two train set in the Albany-Rensselaer Station. Even worse if the LSL is running late there will be two set of passengers inside the station.
> 
> Going to be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you have a different definition of on time than the rest of us, but the eastbound should leave at 3:05 pm and the westbound doesnt get in until 6 pm.
> No different than it has been for quite some time.
Click to expand...

Except there is a cross platform transfer required for the passenger. Also two trainset need a place to park and be serviced. The east bound is now stopping and turn at Rensselaer and the west bound is leaving from Rensselaer. Yes the Boston section will keep traveling, but the NY section is turned around. Very unlikely they try a 3 hour turn. So there will be two NY section present in station or yard.

Got to maintain the Viewliner and stock the dinning service at a station that does not normally work on Viewliners or has a food service. Crew base for the NY section is NYC.

No big deal, but it a few details that need to be address.


----------



## keelhauled

Where has it been written the train is getting split?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

keelhauled said:


> Where has it been written the train is getting split?


As far as I am aware, it is not official yet. However, it is unlikely Boston can handle the full length train and it would likely run mostly empty anyway.


----------



## jis

There is enough space to park two 8 car consists in ALB. I don't see that as a huge issue. Besides, if there isn't I am sure Amtrak will figure out how to send any cars that cannot be stored in ALB, all the way Boston as deadhead.


----------



## keelhauled

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where has it been written the train is getting split?
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I am aware, it is not official yet. However, it is unlikely Boston can handle the full length train and it would likely run mostly empty anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes, space at Southampton Street was the only issue I could think of. Otherwise splitting the consist seems like unnecessary work, since you can't make a same day equipment turn. Even though the train runs empty it would be simpler to just block off cars and have the associated crew leave at Albany. Boston presumably has facilities to do clean sleeping car bedding and a link to Sunnyside to send spare parts up if needed, which I have heard has been done before, neither of which is true in Albany.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

When I talked with an AGR rep she said that Amtrak had not decided but it could be a bus bridge from NYC to Albany but I should get a different corrected ticket with the details which I have not received. I would not have a problem with either bus or train to Albany if it is only about 2.5 hours. I originally had booked the Cardinal but changed when I found out I would have to catch the connecting train to DC at 5:30 AM. I have ridden the Capitol Limited several times but I am visiting friends in NYC so don't mind the connecting trip to the LSL if my large bag I was going to check can travel with me somehow. I have a roomette on the LSL.


----------



## PaulM

Tennessee Traveler said:


> When I talked with an AGR rep she said that Amtrak had not decided but *it* could be a bus bridge from NYC to Albany ...


What is the "it"? The statement makes it sound like once Amtrak decides, you won't have the opportunity to select one of the trains between ALB and NYP (oops NYG). Currently there are at least 12 trains per day, but who knows once it is decided.

More basic question: why add a bus?


----------



## jebr

My guess is that the AGR rep was speculating, maybe not 100% realizing that there's a number of Empire Service trains that run along that corridor. I doubt there's any new information there; the agent was probably just internally thinking about substitutions in general and knows that buses are an option Amtrak uses from time to time.

I'd be truly shocked if Amtrak did a bus bridge; I can't imagine they'd stop running Empire Service trains entirely, and it seems easy enough to add a few extra coach cars to an Empire Service train as needed.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PaulM said:


> Tennessee Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I talked with an AGR rep she said that Amtrak had not decided but *it* could be a bus bridge from NYC to Albany ...
> 
> 
> 
> What is the "it"? The statement makes it sound like once Amtrak decides, you won't have the opportunity to select one of the trains between ALB and NYP (oops NYG). Currently there are at least 12 trains per day, but who knows once it is decided.
> 
> More basic question: why add a bus?
Click to expand...

That's currently. There may not be 12 trains a day to GCT when this is all said and done. They may combine a few, much like how they combined 69 and 63 in the past or they may cancel a few.. Weekends is a whole other ball of wax.


----------



## pennyk

I just made a reservation today to go from Orlando to Albany in June on 98 and 295. The e-ticket shows 295 departing from NYP. I trust that my reservation will be changed by Amtrak in the near (or not so near) future.


----------



## Luvtravel

Hi guys!

Brand new member and have only been lurking for a few days. I'm Australian and I have booked trips around your country for June. Not important to the topic but I'm doing LA-NO-WAS-NY-CHI-EMY-LA. One of the dream trips was the LSL along the Hudson River. When I saw that the LSL was not going between NY and Albany, I started to worry. However, the Amtrak website says that those passengers on the LSL will be put on the Empire Service. I guess that means I will still see that part of the trip that I wanted to? Obviously, I'm looking forward to the California Zephyr but the whole trip is something that I have been planning and looking forward to since about October last year. My trip starts in June for three weeks, finishing with a few days in Las Vegas so can't wait to ride the rails!


----------



## Palmetto

Welcome! Sounds like a great trip. Be advised that you cannot get to Las Vegas by train [in case you didn't know that already].


----------



## cpotisch

Luvtravel said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Brand new member and have only been lurking for a few days. I'm Australian and I have booked trips around your country for June. Not important to the topic but I'm doing LA-NO-WAS-NY-CHI-EMY-LA. One of the dream trips was the LSL along the Hudson River. When I saw that the LSL was not going between NY and Albany, I started to worry. However, the Amtrak website says that those passengers on the LSL will be put on the Empire Service. I guess that means I will still see that part of the trip that I wanted to? Obviously, I'm looking forward to the California Zephyr but the whole trip is something that I have been planning and looking forward to since about October last year. My trip starts in June for three weeks, finishing with a few days in Las Vegas so can't wait to ride the rails!


That's my dream trip! Hope you enjoy it! The route is identical NYP-ALB on the Empire Service and LSL, so you'll be fine.


----------



## PVD

Well, not exactly. If the trip takes place during the work window, the train will originate in Grand Central. That is probably a plus since it is such a beautiful building. You do miss a small piece of Hudson River at the upper end of Manhattan, the train will join the "line up the river" just North of "Spuyten Duyvil" You want the left side for best views heading from NYC to Albany. If you arrive in NYC from WAS, you arrive at NYP. I'm assuming you are staying for a couple of days otherwise getting crosstown with luggage comes into play.....


----------



## cpotisch

So Arrow is currently showing September 3 as the LSL's first day back, GCT has yet to be listed for any trains, and the Cardinal seems to be returning November 13.


----------



## neroden

jebr said:


> My guess is that the AGR rep was speculating, maybe not 100% realizing that there's a number of Empire Service trains that run along that corridor. I doubt there's any new information there; the agent was probably just internally thinking about substitutions in general and knows that buses are an option Amtrak uses from time to time.
> 
> I'd be truly shocked if Amtrak did a bus bridge; I can't imagine they'd stop running Empire Service trains entirely, and it seems easy enough to add a few extra coach cars to an Empire Service train as needed.


Most Empire Service runs are rarely full between NY and Albany, so they probably won't even need to add extra coaches. I guess it depends which train ends up being the connecting train.


----------



## PVD

They are pretty busy certain times of day, but it still shouldn't pose a problem. I've seen add/drop cars on the ADK.


----------



## cpotisch

If they don’t change the schedule much, it seems like ES #244 would be the eastbound connecting train, departing ALB at 4:10 PM. Westbound would be ES 235, leaving _NYP_ at 3:15 PM.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

235 doesn't run weekends, it is a Mo-Fri train The EA (295) runs its schedule on Sa-Su until Albany, before it heads to Rutland...


----------



## Thirdrail7

You will need additional equipment for these moves. They'll likely have to swap AM-2s for AM-1s and as someone mentioned, you'll may need some sort of protection for a late arriving 48.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> You will need additional equipment for these moves. They'll likely have to swap AM-2s for AM-1s and as someone mentioned, you'll may need some sort of protection for a late arriving 48.


How hard, time consuming, or expensive would it be to add push-pull wiring to the affected AM-IIs?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You will need additional equipment for these moves. They'll likely have to swap AM-2s for AM-1s and as someone mentioned, you'll may need some sort of protection for a late arriving 48.
> 
> 
> 
> How hard, time consuming, or expensive would it be to add push-pull wiring to the affected AM-IIs?
Click to expand...

Even if they had the wiring, at a time with such limited capacity it may make sense to use Amfleet Is anyway since they can hold more people.


----------



## Palmetto

PVD said:


> 235 doesn't run weekends, it is a Mo-Fri train The EA (295) runs its schedule on Sa-Su until Albany, before it heads to Rutland...



What happens when 48 is running a couple of hours late?


----------



## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You will need additional equipment for these moves. They'll likely have to swap AM-2s for AM-1s and as someone mentioned, you'll may need some sort of protection for a late arriving 48.
> 
> 
> 
> How hard, time consuming, or expensive would it be to add push-pull wiring to the affected AM-IIs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if they had the wiring, at a time with such limited capacity it may make sense to use Amfleet Is anyway since they can hold more people.
Click to expand...

But don't the Empire trains generally run (as was mentioned) with plenty of seats available? So putting aside the push-pull issues, I would be surprised if the lower capacity of AM-IIs makes much of a difference.


----------



## cpotisch

So just so I understand, the likely plan is to have a MARC or ex-Metroliner cab on one end of the trains, and a P32 with an FL9 or cab car in front at the other end? So that they can run the train from both ends _and _escape in the event of an emergency? If that's the case, that'll be _some_ consist.


----------



## keelhauled

I had heard that the FL9 plan fell through and Amtrak is contemplating chopping holes in the front of their P32s.


----------



## Seaboard92

The FL9s did fall thru band stay tuned folks plenty of interesting discussions coming.


----------



## cpotisch

That's a shame. Would have loved to be able to look at the FL9s a few times this summer. I gotta say, I find rundown 20 year old GEs with the front cut open a lot less cool than a 60 year old F-unit.


----------



## Thirdrail7

keelhauled said:


> I had heard that the FL9 plan fell through and Amtrak is contemplating chopping holes in the front of their P32s.





Seaboard92 said:


> The FL9s did fall thru band stay tuned folks plenty of interesting discussions coming.



You guys are a week late to the party



:



Thirdrail7 said:


> NYC is doomed for another ‘Summer of Hell’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak on Tuesday announced a massive, multimillion-dollar repair project scheduled for this summer that will force changes on several commuter lines.
> 
> “Critical reconstruction” work will be performed on the Empire Tunnel, Spuyten Duyvil Bridge and Track 19 in New York Penn Station, Amtrak said.
> 
> *As a result, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Adirondack and Maple Leaf trains will be rerouted from New York Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal between May 26 and Sept. 4.*
> *The Lake Shore Limited will only run between Boston and Chicago, with New York City and Hudson Valley travelers connecting from Empire Service trains at Albany-Rensselaer.*
> 
> The repairs will cost between $45 million and $50 million.
> “While the schedules have yet to be finalized, there will be fewer service impacts and schedule changes compared to Summer 2017,” Amtrak said, referring to the eight weeks of repairs that sparked a “Summer of Hell” at Penn Station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Time is ticking and there are still issues with the GCT plan. We'll see how this turns out. Who knows? **Maybe, they'll cut doors in the noses of the P32s before this is all over.*
Click to expand...


I believe one is almost (if not entirely) completed. Things with the MARC cars have also taken a weird turn.


----------



## Seaboard92

Thirdrail7 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had heard that the FL9 plan fell through and Amtrak is contemplating chopping holes in the front of their P32s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FL9s did fall thru band stay tuned folks plenty of interesting discussions coming.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You guys are a week late to the party
> 
> 
> 
> :
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> NYC is doomed for another ‘Summer of Hell’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak on Tuesday announced a massive, multimillion-dollar repair project scheduled for this summer that will force changes on several commuter lines.
> 
> “Critical reconstruction” work will be performed on the Empire Tunnel, Spuyten Duyvil Bridge and Track 19 in New York Penn Station, Amtrak said.*As a result, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Adirondack and Maple Leaf trains will be rerouted from New York Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal between May 26 and Sept. 4.*
> 
> *The Lake Shore Limited will only run between Boston and Chicago, with New York City and Hudson Valley travelers connecting from Empire Service trains at Albany-Rensselaer.*The repairs will cost between $45 million and $50 million.
> 
> “While the schedules have yet to be finalized, there will be fewer service impacts and schedule changes compared to Summer 2017,” Amtrak said, referring to the eight weeks of repairs that sparked a “Summer of Hell” at Penn Station.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Time is ticking and there are still issues with the GCT plan. We'll see how this turns out. Who knows? Maybe, they'll cut doors in the noses of the P32s before this is all over.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe one is almost (if not entirely) completed. Things with the MARC cars have also taken a weird turn.
Click to expand...

If that isn't the truth. I'll probably come up to work one of those runs if Amtrak approves our move request. Of which I strongly doubt.


----------



## kdeschner

cpotisch said:


> That's a shame. Would have loved to be able to look at the FL9s a few times this summer. I gotta say, I find rundown 20 year old GEs with the front cut open a lot less cool than a 60 year old F-unit.


I would agree with you on that!


----------



## PVD

Actually, depending on which P32s get the nose job, some of them have been off to the paint shop for the "Empire Service" livery, and don't look half bad. Not sure how many have been completed.


----------



## lonewolfette9847

Thirdrail7 said:


> NYC is doomed for another ‘Summer of Hell’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak on Tuesday announced a massive, multimillion-dollar repair project scheduled for this summer that will force changes on several commuter lines.
> 
> “Critical reconstruction” work will be performed on the Empire Tunnel, Spuyten Duyvil Bridge and Track 19 in New York Penn Station, Amtrak said.*As a result, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Adirondack and Maple Leaf trains will be rerouted from New York Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal between May 26 and Sept. 4.*
> 
> The Lake Shore Limited will only run between Boston and Chicago, with New York City and Hudson Valley travelers connecting from Empire Service trains at Albany-Rensselaer.The repairs will cost between $45 million and $50 million.
> 
> “While the schedules have yet to be finalized, there will be fewer service impacts and schedule changes compared to Summer 2017,” Amtrak said, referring to the eight weeks of repairs that sparked a “Summer of Hell” at Penn Station.
> 
> 
> 
> Time is ticking and there are still issues with the GCT plan. We'll see how this turns out. Who knows? Maybe, they'll cut doors in the noses of the P32s before this is all over.
Click to expand...

So basically anyone making a connection in NY & coming into NYPenn that needs one of the GCT rerouted trains has to find their own way from NYP to GCT?

I had this scenario on May 30 but couldn't get a straight answer from Amtrak so I moved my travel earlier one week. It's my vacation & I don't want a headache like that when I'm trying to get away from the headaches at work.


----------



## Thirdrail7

lonewolfette9847 said:


> So basically anyone making a connection in NY & coming into NYPenn that needs one of the GCT rerouted trains has to find their own way from NYP to GCT?


----------



## zephyr17

Yep, about a 10 minute walk.


----------



## lonewolfette9847

Thirdrail7 said:


> lonewolfette9847 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically anyone making a connection in NY & coming into NYPenn that needs one of the GCT rerouted trains has to find their own way from NYP to GCT?
Click to expand...

Love it! Yeah... glad I changed my timing. Thank you for clarifying that.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

lonewolfette9847 said:


> So basically anyone making a connection in NY & coming into NYPenn that needs one of the GCT rerouted trains has to find their own way from NYP to GCT?
> 
> I had this scenario on May 30 but couldn't get a straight answer from Amtrak so I moved my travel earlier one week. It's my vacation & I don't want a headache like that when I'm trying to get away from the headaches at work.


You're probably better off CL to WAS. It sucks but it's the lesser of the two evils. Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.


----------



## Palmetto

zephyr17 said:


> Yep, about a 10 minute walk.


I don't think so. I've done it a few times when I lived in Manhattan. More like 20-25. The subway is even slower than 10 minutes.


----------



## Ryan

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.


All of Amtrak’s trains stop in the same station in Philly, so a cross town self transfer is nothing like what it’s like being in Philly.


----------



## kdeschner

I just hope I can have eggs and bacon on the lsl this summer....


----------



## Seaboard92

Ryan said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> All of Amtrak’s trains stop in the same station in Philly, so a cross town self transfer is nothing like what it’s like being in Philly.
Click to expand...

I think we still have a few more announcements forthcoming.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> All of Amtrak’s trains stop in the same station in Philly, so a cross town self transfer is nothing like what it’s like being in Philly.
Click to expand...

Exactly. To take the subway from GCT to NYP requires you to take the *7* or *42nd Street Shuttle* across to Time Square, and then transfer to the *1, 2, *or* 3 *down to Penn Station. Those trains are absolutely packed at any reasonable hour, and luggage makes that ride that much worse. And before you suggest getting a cab, you're in mid town and cabs cost $$$ and take forever.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> All of Amtrak’s trains stop in the same station in Philly, so a cross town self transfer is nothing like what it’s like being in Philly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. To take the subway from GCT to NYP requires you to take the *7* or *42nd Street Shuttle* across to Time Square, and then transfer to the *1, 2, *or* 3 *down to Penn Station. Those trains are absolutely packed at any reasonable hour, and luggage makes that ride that much worse. And before you suggest getting a cab, you're in mid town and cabs cost $$$ and take forever.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the fact you have to transfer at all, not that you have to go from Grand Central to Penn Station. If you want to go from Chicago to Penn Station, you can take the Capitol Limited to Washington and then an NER to Penn Station and forget about going through GCT or Albany.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to what it's like being in Philly all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> All of Amtraks trains stop in the same station in Philly, so a cross town self transfer is nothing like what its like being in Philly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. To take the subway from GCT to NYP requires you to take the *7* or *42nd Street Shuttle* across to Time Square, and then transfer to the *1, 2, *or* 3 *down to Penn Station. Those trains are absolutely packed at any reasonable hour, and luggage makes that ride that much worse. And before you suggest getting a cab, you're in mid town and cabs cost $$$ and take forever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was referring to the fact you have to transfer at all, not that you have to go from Grand Central to Penn Station. If you want to go from Chicago to Penn Station, you can take the Capitol Limited to Washington and then an NER to Penn Station and forget about going through GCT or Albany.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the only way the multiple stations is really relevant is if someone is connecting through New York. For many people going to New York, Grand Central is actually in a better location than Penn Station.


----------



## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> For many people going to New York, Grand Central is actually in a better location than Penn Station.


What makes you say that? Penn Station has more mass transit options and is in a more convenient area.


----------



## PVD

1.There is a tremendous amount of business based on the East Side.

2. The Lex and the 7 are attractive options for many.

3. MNRR is the way home for lots of folks.

4. There are a number of very good hotels on the East Side that travelers may wish to use.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> 1.There is a tremendous amount of business based on the East Side.
> 
> 2. The Lex and the 7 are attractive options for many.
> 
> 3. MNRR is the way home for lots of folks.
> 
> 4. There are a number of very good hotels on the East Side that travelers may wish to use.


1. Plenty of business is done on the West Side2. The A is the longest route in the system and goes to JFK. The 2 and 3 go deep into Brooklyn and the Bronx. The A, C, and E are 2-3 stops from the B, D, F, and M. The M gets you to the LaGuardia Airport shuttle bus. And BTW, the 7 does not have much demand after only a handful of stops into Queens

3. Penn Station has LIRR and NJT.

4. There are plenty of hotels on the West Side and around 34th street.


----------



## Trogdor

cpotisch said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For many people going to New York, Grand Central is actually in a better location than Penn Station.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you say that? Penn Station has more mass transit options and is in a more convenient area.
Click to expand...

The statement was “for *many* people...” not every person, not necessarily even _most_ people, but many people. That statement is true, and there’s no point in trying to argue the counterpoint, which was never even challenged.


----------



## railiner

The above posts suggest that the ancient PRR vs NYC rivalriies and partisans still exist....


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> The above posts suggest that the ancient PRR vs NYC rivalriies and partisans still exist....


That they do. I'm a NYC fan but I support all long distance trains regardless. Hence I've slept on a NYC car the past few nights. When the Pennsy car has better beds.


----------



## jis

NYC, the ultimate devourer and destroyer of long distance passenger service.





They did such a thorough job by the time Penn Central was formed that there was almost no real through New York - Chicago train left to run by the time Amtrak came about.


----------



## cpotisch

When Amtrak rain trains to GCT last year, did they offer any Red Cap service?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> When Amtrak rain trains to GCT last year, did they offer any Red Cap service?


AFAIK, the answer is No.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> When Amtrak rain trains to GCT last year, did they offer any Red Cap service?
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, the answer is No.
Click to expand...

Given every Empire Corridor train (except the LSL) are running to Grand Central, could it be worth it to do so this year?


----------



## PVD

From the Amtrak announcement: Amtrak will have staff and Quik-Trak ticketing kiosks at Grand Central Terminal throughout the summer.

Of course, they don't define staff, but it is somewhat more trains than last year, and it is 7 days a week...I would be surprised if they don't at least have some folks there to assist with wheelchair movements.


----------



## railiner

I'm pretty sure they would have at least a TM there to supervise train crews...not sure what station services employee's they would have...


----------



## cpotisch

Fortunately, GCT does have plenty of baggage golf carts. If GCT let Amtrak use some of those, they would have sufficient _equipment_ to offer redcap service.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Customer service personnel will be assigned.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

With all the talk about the lack of through New-York Chicago service this summer....I thought it would be interesting to post the Penn Central timetables from 50 years ago showing what was offered in April 1968.

Penn Central had just been formed in February 1968 and on the former New York Central....there was service through Canada to Detroit and Chicago or via Cleveland (today's Lake Shore Limited route)

The 20th Century Limited along with other 'Named Trains' had been discontinued the previous December....so there was now a collection of through cars switched between the two routes at Buffalo.

PDF's of the last 20th Century Ltd timetable and just about every New York Central passenger timetable are available here:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/timetables.htm


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## NS VIA Fan

And over on the former Pennsylvania side.....the Broadway Limited still ran along with the Manhattan Limited, Pennsylvania Limited and the e/b Admiral.

(FYI....I believe Erie Lackawanna still had a Hoboken-Chicago train also in 1968)


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## jld

I saw the MARC cab car, p32, amfleet and another MARC car on Sunday on a test run past Harlem into GCT -- guess qualifying sessions are getting into full swing


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> And over on the former Pennsylvania side.....the Broadway Limited still ran along with the Manhattan Limited, Pennsylvania Limited and the e/b Admiral.
> 
> (FYI....I believe Erie Lackawanna still had a Hoboken-Chicago train also in 1968)


Love it...if only we could have half of what was there, back then....(sigh)....

And yes, Erie Lackawanna's "Lake Cities" was still running until 1970 between Hoboken and Chicago Dearborn Station, via the old Lackawanna route to Binghamton, then the old Erie...

Thanks for posting that great nostalgia!!


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## WashingtonFlyer

PVD said:


> AM 1 including the split club/cafe/lounge are push pull compatible (per OTOL roster). The FL-9 would serve as the operating position as it is escape compatible, I am pretty sure the MARC cars have a door.


There are FL9s still out there that are available for use???


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## brianpmcdonnell17

WashingtonFlyer said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> AM 1 including the split club/cafe/lounge are push pull compatible (per OTOL roster). The FL-9 would serve as the operating position as it is escape compatible, I am pretty sure the MARC cars have a door.
> 
> 
> 
> There are FL9s still out there that are available for use???
Click to expand...

There are but it sounds as though that plan may have fallen through.


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## PVD

A lot has happened since I posted that comment over a month ago. But I give a new member credit for going back and reading through a thread before saying something. Unfortunately, he missed the part about the FL-9 deal failing and the mods to the noses of Amtrak P32s. Since Thirdrail (one of the most reliable members) seemed to confirm that course., I'd bank on it.


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## cpotisch

Not sure how long this has been the case, but looking on Arrow, NYG is now an option (and the only one at that) for all Empire Corridor trains this summer.


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## bratkinson

One has to ask...how many non-railfan passengers for the Lakeshore Ltd from New York would know to use *NYG* rather than *NYP* and ride coach to ALB and switch trains? Only the massacists, I presume.


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## cpotisch

bratkinson said:


> One has to ask...how many non-railfan passengers for the Lakeshore Ltd from New York would know to use *NYG* rather than *NYP* and ride coach to ALB and switch trains? Only the massacists, I presume.


They sent out emails to notify existing passengers. And now it's impossible to book NYP, so there shouldn't be much confusion going forward.


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## pennyk

Last month I made a reservation to travel in mid June from ORL to NYP on the Silver Meteor and from NYP to ALB on the Ethan Allen Express. After the new schedules were loaded into ARROW over the weekend, I was expecting to receive an email or other notification that my itinerary had been changed. As of this morning, I had not received any notification, so I went ahead and called Amtrak. I was re-ticketed from NYG to ALB with same fare, no change to Meteor segment, same reservation number and slightly different departure time on Ethan Allen (5 minutes earlier). I assume that if I had been more patient, I would have received an email or other notification about the change from NYP to NYG.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

bratkinson said:


> One has to ask...how many non-railfan passengers for the Lakeshore Ltd from New York would know to use *NYG* rather than *NYP* and ride coach to ALB and switch trains? Only the massacists, I presume.


It would be helpful if Amtrak allowed bookings from a city or region, rather than only a specific station. There are many examples of this with the airlines, such as Chicago where if the code CHI (one could also just type the city name and this option appears) is used, flights from Midway and O'Hare both appear. This could help Amtrak passengers in cases such as Boston, New York (temporarily), Buffalo, and Richmond.


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## Thirdrail7

jld said:


> I saw the MARC cab car, p32, amfleet and another MARC car on Sunday on a test run past Harlem into GCT -- guess qualifying sessions are getting into full swing


Qualifying is basically done. This was compatibility testing.



PVD said:


> A lot has happened since I posted that comment over a month ago. But I give a new member credit for going back and reading through a thread before saying something. Unfortunately, he missed the part about the FL-9 deal failing and the mods to the noses of Amtrak P32s. Since Thirdrail (one of the most reliable members) seemed to confirm that course., I'd bank on it.


They are feverishly working on the door mods while attempting to maintain service. There isn't a ton of cab cars available so I believe they'll use the cab cars on trains without the door mods ahead of the P32 until they have enough completed.



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> bratkinson said:
> 
> 
> 
> One has to ask...how many non-railfan passengers for the Lakeshore Ltd from New York would know to use *NYG* rather than *NYP* and ride coach to ALB and switch trains? Only the massacists, I presume.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be helpful if Amtrak allowed bookings from a city or region, rather than only a specific station. There are many examples of this with the airlines, such as Chicago where if the code CHI (one could also just type the city name and this option appears) is used, flights from Midway and O'Hare both appear. This could help Amtrak passengers in cases such as Boston, New York (temporarily), Buffalo, and Richmond.
Click to expand...

They new website pretty much allows for this by allowing you to type in cities. Using Richmond to New York without city codes as an example, the drop down menu listed :

Richmond, BC (RBC)

Richmond, CA (RIC)

Richmond, VA - Main Street Station (RVM)

Richmond, VA - Staples Mill Road Station (RVR)

New York yielded:

Select a station.

New York State Fair, NY (NYF)

New York, NY - Grand Central Terminal (NYG)

New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP)

As you can see, it does list the additional stops and their codes.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Thirdrail7 said:


> They new website pretty much allows for this by allowing you to type in cities. Using Richmond to New York without city codes as an example, the drop down menu listed :
> 
> Richmond, BC (RBC)
> 
> Richmond, CA (RIC)
> 
> Richmond, VA - Main Street Station (RVM)
> 
> Richmond, VA - Staples Mill Road Station (RVR)
> 
> New York yielded:
> 
> Select a station.
> 
> New York State Fair, NY (NYF)
> 
> New York, NY - Grand Central Terminal (NYG)
> 
> New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP)
> 
> As you can see, it does list the additional stops and their codes.


That's definitely an improvement but it is still not as good as they could make it. I don't know how hard it is to program that type of information into the system, but those who are not familiar with the website may become frustrated or even assume there is no service. For example, someone looking to travel from Boston to Maine may check only South and Back Bay Stations (perhaps they've traveled south on Amtrak before) and give up or at least become frustrated. In a case such as Grand Central this Summer, someone who has travelled on the Empire Corridor before or at least knows that Grand Central is commuter rail only (under normal circumstances) may not think to check it. Another case that could occur is if someone was travelling to Richmond from the south and attempts to book a ticket to Main Street Station, without realizing that they could avoid the transfer entirely by just booking to Staples Mill Road. This is not something that affects me personally, but I know a lot of people who are not experienced rail travellers and/or not talented internet users who may struggle with the current Amtrak system. At present, many of these people likely just book their reservations over the phone, but if the rumored charges for doing so come to be this becomes even more important.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

bratkinson said:


> One has to ask...how many non-railfan passengers for the Lakeshore Ltd from New York would know to use *NYG* rather than *NYP* and ride coach to ALB and switch trains? Only the massacists, I presume.


But the question is would passengers going from Chicago to New York care more about going on the Lake Shore Limited or getting off at Penn Station? Either way they are going to have to transfer. If they would rather go to Penn Station, might as well just go via the Capitol Limited.


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## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They new website pretty much allows for this by allowing you to type in cities. Using Richmond to New York without city codes as an example, the drop down menu listed :
> 
> Richmond, BC (RBC)
> 
> Richmond, CA (RIC)
> 
> Richmond, VA - Main Street Station (RVM)
> 
> Richmond, VA - Staples Mill Road Station (RVR)
> 
> New York yielded:
> 
> Select a station.
> 
> New York State Fair, NY (NYF)
> 
> New York, NY - Grand Central Terminal (NYG)
> 
> New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP)
> 
> As you can see, it does list the additional stops and their codes.
> 
> 
> 
> For example, someone looking to travel from Boston to Maine may check only South and Back Bay Stations (perhaps they've traveled south on Amtrak before) and give up or at least become frustrated
Click to expand...

Fortunately, Arrow does list connections that involve the self transfer from Boston South and Boston North. So for example, if you try to book NYP-POR, it will let you book a connection from NER/Acela to the Downeaster, with a notice at the top of the page that you need to get to Boston North. However, if you just search for BOS-POR, or NYP-BON, it says that there aren't any trains for that itinerary. It would be so easy to just tell the user that you need to book your ticket from the other station, but no.


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## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> Maybe, they'll cut doors in the noses of the P32s before this is all over.





Dutchrailnut said:


> did Amtrak not mount all Cab signal and ACSES gear in that nose ??





Thirdrail7 said:


> They actually put all of that PTC stuff in giant box behind the fireman's side seat. Still, even if they cut a door in the nose, it would probably impact something useful....like the controls and dash and there isn't a likely way to build steps.
> 
> Is the Park Avenue tunnel still undergoing work on weekends this summer Dutch?


I saw one of the GCT modified units. I guess it was the NEW PTC stuff that was mounted behind the fireman's side. The ACSES and Cab Signal is in the nose, right in the path of the your escape route. I supposed you could use it to hop up to the hatch. They did remove the number light that was in the nose and replaced it with two, reflectorized number decals on each side of the escape hatch.

It isn't for the faint of heart....or the chubby. Hell, not even for the muscular....or tall. Talk about a tight fit.

Oh well. They are starting to make the alterations to some of the third rail shoes. It will be a mad rush next week.

1 week to go!


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## brianpmcdonnell17

It appears as though the schedule of the Lake Shore Limited and been adjusted for the summer east of Albany/Rensselaer, with a shorter dwell time there allowing for a later departure from and earlier arrival into Boston.


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## RPC

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> It appears as though the schedule of the Lake Shore Limited and been adjusted for the summer east of Albany/Rensselaer, with a shorter dwell time there allowing for a later departure from and earlier arrival into Boston.


...and I'd guess lunch will no longer be offered leaving Boston.


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## ainamkartma

Question: so this summer there will be no direct service from New York City (or its cross-Hudson terminals, I guess) to Chicago. Has that ever been true before since non-stop service began, 150 or so years ago?

Just curious,

Ainamkartma


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## jis

ainamkartma said:


> Question: so this summer there will be no direct service from New York City (or its cross-Hudson terminals, I guess) to Chicago. Has that ever been true before since non-stop service began, 150 or so years ago?
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> Ainamkartma


No


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## railiner

ainamkartma said:


> Question: so this summer there will be no direct service from New York City (or its cross-Hudson terminals, I guess) to Chicago. Has that ever been true before since non-stop service began, 150 or so years ago?
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> Ainamkartma


I was going to say, the Cardinal will, tri-weekly at least....but then I remembered it is being cut back to Washington.

When you think about it, it is indeed incredible that there will be no thru service between New York and Chicago...


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## PVD

NEC to CL is pretty good, just not one seat.


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## Thirdrail7

This will aid inspections and leave a protect set.

Empire Service Train 64 Cross-Platform Transfer in Albany



> Empire Service Train 64 Cross-Platform Transfer in Albany
> Effective May 26 through September 3, 2018
> 
> Due to ongoing infrastructure renewal work in and around New York Penn Station, all Empire trains originating and terminating in New York will operate from/to Grand Central Terminal starting May 26. Trains 63 and 69 will operate from Penn Station on May 26 and begin operation from Grand Central Terminal on May 27.
> 
> Eastbound Maple Leaf Train 64 will require a daily cross-platform transfer at Albany. Passengers will be required to bring their belongings and walk across the platform to board an adjacent train that will continue to New York. Amtrak employees will be available to help passengers with the transfer, if needed.
> Business Class Service SuspendedTrains 63, 64, 238, 245 and 261 will not offer Business Class service from May 26 through September 3. Business Class will resume on Train 64, September 5.
> 
> PSN 0518-121


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## cpotisch

An Empire Service train with a MARC cab car at Harlem 125th a couple days ago:


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## Thirdrail7

Click on the link to see a brief video and pictures of the movable portion of the Spuyten Duyvil bridge being lifted and moved by the worlds largest floating crane.

Video: Amtrak uses massive crane to move railroad bridge



> NEW YORK — Amtrak workers used one of the world's largest floating cranes Thursday to move the bridge that provides train access between upstate New York and New York Penn Station.
> 
> The passenger railroad service is upgrading the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, which is a railroad swing bridge that spans the Spuyten Duyvil Creek between Manhattan and the Bronx.


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## Dutchrailnut

GCT has no option to dump and service toilets , would you ride a train that has 16 hours of **** in it already?

sending train to sunnyside would require several hours , and at least two crews plus a mn pilot crew.


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## Seaboard92

Dutchrailnut said:


> GCT has no option to dump and service toilets , would you ride a train that has 16 hours of **** in it already?
> 
> sending train to sunnyside would require several hours , and at least two crews plus a mn pilot crew.


ALB shop has the ability to do it. If the train is lingering like it normally would just dump half going one way and half the other.


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## cpotisch

Dutchrailnut said:


> GCT has no option to dump and service toilets , would you ride a train that has 16 hours of **** in it already?
> 
> sending train to sunnyside would require several hours , and at least two crews plus a mn pilot crew.


They empty the tanks in Albany and Chicago. Albany is only a few hours down the line, so it's not a big deal.


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## Dutchrailnut

do they dump them in Albany in station ? cause LSL is not going into yard in Albany.


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## jis

That would be something! Honey Wagons running helter skelter all over crowded platforms trying to do their thing ASAP [emoji51]


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## Thirdrail7

The P32s are all modified. The cab cars are returning to MARC.


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## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> The P32s are all modified. The cab cars are returning to MARC.


Darn it! I was hoping to see one of those weird consists, in person.


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## daybeers

Here are a couple videos of the MARC cab cars traveling southbound on the Springfield Line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmraTerxF1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLk4QDfG-M


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## cpotisch

daybeers said:


> Here are a couple videos of the MARC cab cars traveling southbound on the Springfield Line:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmraTerxF1M
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLk4QDfG-M


Wait, why did they have a P42 in the front and a Dash 8 in the rear, with both of them running reverse? Literally every car in that train is a cab car, and they've got locomotives on both ends, but they chose to run the Dash 8 in the front, running in reverse with limited visibility? I know there's gotta be some reason for that, but it just strikes me as the dumbest consist choice I've ever seen.


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## jis

You should apply for an Amtrak operations job and set ‘em straight


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> You should apply for an Amtrak operations job and set ‘em straight


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## Seaboard92

It's the railroad it's not supposed to make sense. If it makes sense you haven't been doing it long enough.


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## railiner

cpotisch said:


> daybeers said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a couple videos of the MARC cab cars traveling southbound on the Springfield Line:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmraTerxF1M
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLk4QDfG-M
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, why did they have a P42 in the front and a Dash 8 in the rear, with both of them running reverse? Literally every car in that train is a cab car, and they've got locomotives on both ends, but they chose to run the Dash 8 in the front, running in reverse with limited visibility? I know there's gotta be some reason for that, but it just strikes me as the dumbest consist choice I've ever seen.
Click to expand...

If I was the engineer on a route with lots of grade crossing accident potential....I think I would prefer to operate with the long hood forward....


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## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Wait, why did they have a P42 in the front and a Dash 8 in the rear, with both of them running reverse? Literally every car in that train is a cab car, and they've got locomotives on both ends, but they chose to run the Dash 8 in the front, running in reverse with limited visibility? I know there's gotta be some reason for that, but it just strikes me as the dumbest consist choice I've ever seen.


It probably has to do with the fact that the 514 was one of the only diesels that was in the area to assist with the various moves this train is going to be involved in and that was the way it was pointed when it arrived. That is why the P-32s are used in work train service. They can run either direction if necessary.


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## John Bobinyec

How's the Penn station and other work, which forced the trains to Grand Central Terminal, coming along? Will all of the trains revert back to Penn station on September 4?

jb


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## Thirdrail7

19 track is completed. Here is the latest, public progress report.

https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Summer-2018-Infrastructure-Renewal-Monthly-Progress-Report-7_20_18.pdf


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## railiner

Thirdrail7 said:


> 19 track is completed. Here is the latest, public progress report.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Summer-2018-Infrastructure-Renewal-Monthly-Progress-Report-7_20_18.pdf


Interesting...could you explain what that line about:

"Replace and lower 645 feet of the track infrastructure between the Empire Tunnel and the 157/159" is about?


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## jis

Here is a report on the recent developments at the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge

http://abc7ny.com/traffic/spuyten-duyvil-bridge-getting-back-in-place-after-repairs/3861837/


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## Thirdrail7

railiner said:


> Interesting...could you explain what that line about:
> 
> "Replace and lower 645 feet of the track infrastructure between the Empire Tunnel and the 157/159" is about?


I believe that is to help with the Empire Access plan. There is a plan to alter an overhead bridge support to allow a ladder to reach from the Empire Connection to (I believe ) 13 track. Currently, you can only go as high as 9tk. To accomplish this, they have to lower the track from the Empire tunnel to allow it to meet with the tracks that are rising from the North tube so they may join earlier.


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## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...could you explain what that line about:
> 
> "Replace and lower 645 feet of the track infrastructure between the Empire Tunnel and the 157/159" is about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that is to help with the Empire Access plan. There is a plan to alter an overhead bridge support to allow a ladder to reach from the Empire Connection to (I believe ) 13 track. Currently, you can only go as high as 9tk. To accomplish this, they have to lower the track from the Empire tunnel to allow it to meet with the tracks that are rising from the North tube so they may join earlier.
Click to expand...

I thought the plan was to extend the easternmost ladder track in the A interlocking that connects to the higher tracks, across two tracks to connect to the Empire Connection. If that is done, you'd get access all the way upto track 18 or so. Has that changed?

Looking at the track diagram of A interlocking, am at a loss as to where they would put a special crossover to connect only upto track 13.


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## Thirdrail7

That is what I believe was supposed to happen. However, I think they have amended the plan and you'll only be able to reach 13tk via the crossover on 12tk. This is was as of last month but it is hardly something I keep track of.

I can reach out to a key person and find out though. It's too bad. We were just at a retirement a few days ago. I could have asked him.


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## railiner

Is it possible that they would have to cut out some of the longer platform ends to reach the higher numbered tracks? Can't remember the layout that well....

But thanks guy's, for the explanation....I had some weird imagination of them trying to increase the clearance on the Empire Line to allow higher cars, but that doesn't make any sense...


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## jis

Right, so the high cars could come into Penn Station and then get the roofs roasted and eventually become Cabriolets


----------

