# Brightline Trains Florida update



## Anderson

It looks like the FEC got things rolling well ahead of the All Aboard Florida announcement; this blog notes a PR stating that they're expecting to have their go/no-go study done this month (i.e. June). Considering that I've never even heard of a half-decent non-poll study turning around that quickly (Two months? Really?), this tells me that they started the planning on this a while ago...I'm going to guess that they started immediately after the Orlampa project collapsed.*

Not that I can blame them for holding out this long before going public...but it suggests that they already had an idea what the study was going to say before All Aboard Florida made its announcement.

Of particular interest is the travel time from Orlando to Miami (3:02). This is just...amazing (though it's probably a shame that they couldn't find :03 to shave off so they could wave around "Less than three hours!" in a PR...but I expect we'll see a move for some sort of upgrade a year or two in that will allow this, giving them either a way to ask for money or some minor service upgrade that they get a free round of press for). This would also seem to hint at a stop-included average speed of around 80 MPH (which, IIRC, isn't too much slower than the Acela WAS-NYP)...and it would also, I believe, suggest that you might well pick up a decent bit of traffic driving from Daytona/Jacksonville Cocoa and picking up the train there.

Another thing that has me scratching my head a bit: This project is going to cost $1 billion, which I love. But if this can be done for $1 billion and (per my dinner with Daniel Lyons) Orlampa could probably be done for $400 million at 125 MPH for only a 15-minute loss, that gives a total cost of Tampa-Orlando-Miami of $1.4 billion or so. IIRC, the HSR project was supposed to run something like $10 billion for the same general route. What was the TPA-MIA travel time for that project (or, in other words, what were we going to pay $9 billion for)?

Finally, two hunches here following up on the blog's speculations:

1) The FEC will probably aim to do the passenger rail project itself entirely on their own (to keep the Feds as far out of it as possible and reduce at least some of the study requirements), and handle the crossing upgrades (which have their own merits, and their elimination has been an FRA safety priority for some time) as a nominally separate project that shouldn't require lots of environmental work.

2) I can't help but wonder if they're not hauling ASCII on the project to try and get something in if CA melts down. A ready-to-go project with an aimed completion date of 2014 or thereabouts would almost be tailor-made for that money, even if it just went to grade crossing "fixes"...though I don't know if they'd even be eligible to apply for the money.

*Either that or this study ought to be a scathing indictment of government feasibility studies taking as long as they do.

Blogpost link: http://reasonrail.bl...mi-orlando.html

Edit: This guy also did a back-of-the-envelope analysis of the ridership that's expected to be needed to make the operation work. The conclusion? About 3 million riders per year, which is about what AAF expects to attract from what I can tell.

Finally, for the kicker of the day: Apparently, the Miami Tea Party folks have backed the plan. Granted, if it works out with mostly private money (public funds only covering some odd-and-end compliance stuff)...well, Atlas Shrugged centered around a railroad.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> It looks like the FEC got things rolling well ahead of the All Aboard Florida announcement; this blog notes a PR stating that they're expecting to have their go/no-go study done this month (i.e. June). Considering that I've never even heard of a half-decent non-poll study turning around that quickly (Two months? Really?), this tells me that they started the planning on this a while ago...I'm going to guess that they started immediately after the Orlampa project collapsed.*


Their study may be far simpler than a government feasibility study which has to include alternatives, wide ranging enviromental impact analysis. The study may be just a basic business model study with minimal engineering design and input. It also should be using previous state funded studies as references.



Anderson said:


> Of particular interest is the travel time from Orlando to Miami (3:02). This is just...amazing (though it's probably a shame that they couldn't find :03 to shave off so they could wave around "Less than three hours!" in a PR...but I expect we'll see a move for some sort of upgrade a year or two in that will allow this, giving them either a way to ask for money or some minor service upgrade that they get a free round of press for). This would also seem to hint at a stop-included average speed of around 80 MPH (which, IIRC, isn't too much slower than the Acela WAS-NYP)...and it would also, I believe, suggest that you might well pick up a decent bit of traffic driving from Daytona/Jacksonville Cocoa and picking up the train there.
> 
> Another thing that has me scratching my head a bit: This project is going to cost $1 billion, which I love. But if this can be done for $1 billion and (per my dinner with Daniel Lyons) Orlampa could probably be done for $400 million at 125 MPH for only a 15-minute loss, that gives a total cost of Tampa-Orlando-Miami of $1.4 billion or so. IIRC, the HSR project was supposed to run something like $10 billion for the same general route. What was the TPA-MIA travel time for that project (or, in other words, what were we going to pay $9 billion for)?


The HSR project was going to be a new ROW from Tampa to Orlando and then to Miami, IIRC. New stations, straighter route than the CSX and TriRail tracks, which were likely the comparisons. FEC is, of course, planning to use their own tracks and the entire project to leverage their real estate holdings.

The $1 billion price tag is likely to have a lot of assumptions built into it: not having to pay outright for the 40 miles of ROW to Orlando, low interest state backed loans, speedy approval for construction permits from the state. Where will the new FEC ROW go to in Orlando? There are many, many questions about their proposal and plans, that some degree of skepticism on the final cost and their ability to start operations in 2014 from Miami to Orlando is warranted. The 2014 start date could just be pure PR BS to get public support which they know is not a realistic date, but they can blame state bureaucrats and NIMBY lawsuits when they don't start service by end of 2014.



Anderson said:


> 2) I can't help but wonder if they're not hauling ASCII on the project to try and get something in if CA melts down. A ready-to-go project with an aimed completion date of 2014 or thereabouts would almost be tailor-made for that money, even if it just went to grade crossing "fixes"...though I don't know if they'd even be eligible to apply for the money.
> 
> *Either that or this study ought to be a scathing indictment of government feasibility studies taking as long as they do.


Only the state of FL would be eligible for the HSIPR funding. I can't see LaHood, the US DOT and FRA wanting to deal with Gov. Scott at all this year. *Government feasibility studies, which are mainly done by private contractors, do take too long, but the requirements have expanded over the decades that they have to look at everything, including the kitchen sink.


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## Anderson

Ok, point taken on a narrower scoping, and the timeframe seems to be closer to three months. Still, I highly doubt that FECI jumped without doing some advance work.

As to those assumptions, my gut says that Rick Scott is going to cut through red tape like a hot knife through butter on this one. Not because he's pro-rail...but because he caught a rather sharp (and rather bipartisan) backlash on canceling the Orlampa train; as I recall, he actually had to fight some members of his party in court to make the cancelation stick. Furthermore, I suspect that the FEC has a decent bit of heft within the state. If nothing else, he's going to have a lot of pressure on him from the stance of "Ok, Rick, we dealt with your concerns, now get out of the way."

I concur on the HSIPR funding point (it was worth asking; this project is a sort of dog-caught-the-car proposal: "Ok, a private railroad wants to invest in intercity passenger rail. ...wait, WHO wants to invest in that?")...and I don't see /anyone/ wanting to deal with Rick Scott. However, the other pot of cash out there (RRIF)...FECI's eligible to apply for that, right? 'course, it's also entirely possible that (as noted) the government may simply be asked to kick in to help with closing a bunch of grade crossings (which may require bridges, tunnels, etc.), which would probably allow them to completely avoid federal involvement.


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## AlanB

Anderson said:


> as I recall, he actually had to fight some members of his party in court to make the cancelation stick.


Not only was he dragged into court, but the State Senate tried to go behind his back to get things done anyhow despite him, even meeting with Sec. Trans. Ray LaHood trying to figure out how to circumvent him.

When all of the above failed, 16 Republican State Senators joined with 10 Democratic ones to form a veto proof majority in rebuking Governor Scott for his foolish decision.


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## Anderson

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> as I recall, he actually had to fight some members of his party in court to make the cancelation stick.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only was he dragged into court, but the State Senate tried to go behind his back to get things done anyhow despite him, even meeting with Sec. Trans. Ray LaHood trying to figure out how to circumvent him.
> 
> When all of the above failed, 16 Republican State Senators joined with 10 Democratic ones to form a veto proof majority in rebuking Governor Scott for his foolish decision.
Click to expand...

I'd recalled that there was a veto-proof majority for _something_ there, but I'd forgotten exactly how the intrigue went. I remember that the whole thing was very much a back-and-forth affair, and that for a while it looked like the project might get rammed down his throat (which would have been all sorts of amusing).

With that sort of a backlash (that would be a majority of the GOP caucus voting to rebuke him), the apparent tea party support for this plan, and Scott's dismal approval rating (I've seen all of one poll putting him over 40%), it probably wouldn't be smart for him to get in the way. I also went and checked...FEC (the railway) donated close to $400,000 in 2010 to both parties, and FECI (the holding company) has been a substantial GOP donor...and, wait for it, the FEC Railroad put $25,000 towards the "Derail the Bullet Train PAC". Funny how they've jumped in here after ensuring that the potential rival for business isn't there anymore.

'course, there is room for the "actual" NIMBY objections to come up, and those can always stall a project, but even there...considering that the project is already on a railroad RoW on the FEC main line and that most of the rest of it runs down the middle of an expressway RoW, I don't see where there's going to be much of a basis for those. Actually, as funny as it sounds, the biggest fight might well come if Scott tries to cut _too_ much red tape and the project trips up because a requirement of some sort goes unfulfilled.


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## Anderson

And Mica has jumped on board with this project. Granted, it runs through his district and there's an obvious mass of popular support for rail in Florida, but I think Mica is indicative of what I suspected earlier: To the extent that any groups in the GOP opposed the original Florida HSR project, this one is _really_ hard to justify not giving every advantage, either ideologically (let's face it, this is the sort of thing that the GOP is supposed to eat up) or pragmatically (see above).


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## mfastx

Mica supports because Obama didn't propose it.


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## The Davy Crockett

I got an update from the AAFT that sure seems to indicate where they would like Orlando station to be:



> Dear [Davy],
> 
> Yesterday the Greater Orlando Airport Authority Board authorized the executive director of Orlando International Airport to work with us to develop an agreement that would bring the All Aboard Florida commercial passenger rail service to the airport's Intermodal Facility.
> 
> You can read more about the Authority's decision here. [My link to full news release]
> 
> As a supporter of All Aboard Florida, we wanted to share this news with you. We are excited about taking this first step towards selecting a terminal location in Central Florida and look forward to working with the airport's leaders to create intermodal transportation options that will be of great benefit to Central Florida's residents, businesses and visitors alike.
> 
> Thank you for your support,
> 
> All Aboard Florida Team


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## Texan Eagle

The Davy Crockett said:


> I got an update from the AAFT that sure seems to indicate where they would like Orlando station to be:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear [Davy],
> 
> Yesterday the Greater Orlando Airport Authority Board authorized the executive director of Orlando International Airport to work with us to develop an agreement that would bring the All Aboard Florida commercial passenger rail service to the airport's Intermodal Facility.
> 
> You can read more about the Authority's decision here. [My link to full news release]
> 
> As a supporter of All Aboard Florida, we wanted to share this news with you. We are excited about taking this first step towards selecting a terminal location in Central Florida and look forward to working with the airport's leaders to create intermodal transportation options that will be of great benefit to Central Florida's residents, businesses and visitors alike.
> 
> Thank you for your support,
> 
> All Aboard Florida Team
Click to expand...

I see American Airlines has nine daily non-stop flights Orlando to Miami.

7:35 am - 8:35 am American

9:00 am - 10:05 am American

10:25 am - 11:30 am American

12:10 pm - 1:15 pm American

2:10 pm - 3:25 pm American

3:30 pm - 4:45 pm American

4:30 pm - 5:45 pm American

6:30 pm - 7:40 pm American

8:40 pm - 9:40 pm American

I am not sure how much of the traffic carried by these flights is O&D vs transfers from elsewhere, but it would be interesting to see American's reaction to a Orlando-Miami train starting from the airport itself! Will they oppose the rail? Cut back the flights? Code-share with AAFT?


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## jis

For AA those are MIA hub to MCO spoke service so it is quite likely that the preponderance of passengers on those are connecting at MIA and are not O/D.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> For AA those are MIA hub to MCO spoke service so it is quite likely that the preponderance of passengers on those are connecting at MIA and are not O/D.


This. ORL-MIA is very likely a loss leader feeder route for the most part...it's such a short hop, after all (what is it, 200 miles as the crow flies?), and I suspect that the airlines would prefer to have those slots at MIA and MCO go to either longer-distance flights (say, from New York, Chicago, or even Atlanta) or international flights. It might be saved by higher load factors from tourist/business travel, but I don't see it being one of the "big winner" routes (particularly since the route is at least somewhat drivable).

Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?


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## Texan Eagle

Anderson said:


> Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?


Yes. Spirit has 2 daily non-stop MCO-FLL flights

9:47 pm - 10:45 pm Spirit from MCO

8:50 am - 9:54 am Spirit from MCO

There is nothing to Palm Beach. A random search threw up impractical options-

US Airways Orlando to Palm Beach via... Philadelphia






JetBlue Orlando to Palm Beach via... San Juan, Puerto Rico


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## Anderson

Texan Eagle said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Spirit has 2 daily non-stop MCO-FLL flights
> 
> 9:47 pm - 10:45 pm Spirit from MCO
> 
> 8:50 am - 9:54 am Spirit from MCO
> 
> There is nothing to Palm Beach. A random search threw up impractical options-
> 
> US Airways Orlando to Palm Beach via... Philadelphia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JetBlue Orlando to Palm Beach via... San Juan, Puerto Rico
Click to expand...

That reminds me of some of the options I got when looking up some relatively short flights...I think there was an option listed at one point to go from Dulles to one of the New York area airports (or to Boston from Richmond, I really can't recall) involving a connection in Toronto and costing $1200 on Air Canada.


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## PRR 60

Anderson said:


> ...
> 
> Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?


Southwest has four non-stops a day each way between Orlando and Fort Lauderdale: $87 for advance purchase.


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## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?
> 
> 
> 
> Southwest has four non-stops a day each way between Orlando and Fort Lauderdale: $87 for advance purchase.
Click to expand...

They are competing against the Ronald Reagan Turnpike and about 3 hours driving time, not very pleasant driving I might add specially at the south end.



It would be amazing if any airline seriously flew a stopping flight between Orlando and Ft. Lauderdale. An old Dakota anyone?


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## Texan Eagle

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Just wondering, but are there any flights from Orlando to the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area?
> 
> 
> 
> Southwest has four non-stops a day each way between Orlando and Fort Lauderdale: $87 for advance purchase.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are competing against the Ronald Reagan Turnpike and about 3 hours driving time, not very pkleasant driving I might add specially at the south end.  It would be amazing if any airline seriously flew a stopping flight between Orlando and Ft. Lauderdale. An old Dakota anyone? :lol:
Click to expand...

Google Maps says 3 hr 45 min driving time from MCO airport to Miami. I did this drive last summer and it was quite ordinary. I started on Florida Turnpike and there was no traffic, no turns, no scenery.. swamps and trees for miles together, sitting with cruise control put on 65 miles, I got so bored and sleepy that I had to bail out and get on to I-95 midway to get some traffic that would keep me awake 

I understand the AA flights feed into MIA hub, but what about Spirit and Southwest? If a passenger train starts right from MCO airport to Miami, will they cut down the MCO-FLL flights? Any chance of them code-sharing on trains like it is common in Europe, like, you book JFK-FLL ticket on Southwest Airlines and it includes Flight 9W-XX JFK-MCO and then "train" 9W-YY MCO-FLL?


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## jis

Texan Eagle said:


> Google Maps says 3 hr 45 min driving time from MCO airport to Miami. I did this drive last summer and it was quite ordinary. I started on Florida Turnpike and there was no traffic, no turns, no scenery.. swamps and trees for miles together, sitting with cruise control put on 65 miles, I got so bored and sleepy that I had to bail out and get on to I-95 midway to get some traffic that would keep me awake
> 
> I understand the AA flights feed into MIA hub, but what about Spirit and Southwest? If a passenger train starts right from MCO airport to Miami, will they cut down the MCO-FLL flights? Any chance of them code-sharing on trains like it is common in Europe, like, you book JFK-FLL ticket on Southwest Airlines and it includes Flight 9W-XX JFK-MCO and then "train" 9W-YY MCO-FLL?


MCO to FLL would be at least half hour less.

Said train will surely make a brief stop at Fort Lauderdale since it is on the way. At least if the Japanese pattern of HSR operation is followed there'd be some trains that would call there.

Why would Southwest use Jet Airways code 9W? Southwest would be WN-XX and WN-YY. It could happen, but then again it may not. Some airline like UA would possibly be more likely to do something like that than WN. AFAICT, and correct me if I am wrong, WN in general does not code share.


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## Texan Eagle

jis said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps says 3 hr 45 min driving time from MCO airport to Miami. I did this drive last summer and it was quite ordinary. I started on Florida Turnpike and there was no traffic, no turns, no scenery.. swamps and trees for miles together, sitting with cruise control put on 65 miles, I got so bored and sleepy that I had to bail out and get on to I-95 midway to get some traffic that would keep me awake
> 
> I understand the AA flights feed into MIA hub, but what about Spirit and Southwest? If a passenger train starts right from MCO airport to Miami, will they cut down the MCO-FLL flights? Any chance of them code-sharing on trains like it is common in Europe, like, you book JFK-FLL ticket on Southwest Airlines and it includes Flight 9W-XX JFK-MCO and then "train" 9W-YY MCO-FLL?
> 
> 
> 
> MCO to FLL would be at least half hour less.
> 
> Said train will surely make a brief stop at Fort Lauderdale since it is on the way. At least if the Japanese pattern of HSR operation is followed there'd be some trains that would call there.
> 
> Why would Southwest use Jet Airways code 9W? Southwest would be WN-XX and WN-YY. It could happen, but then again it may not. Some airline like UA would possibly be more likely to do something like that than WN. AFAICT, and correct me if I am wrong, WN in general does not code share.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant WN. I was typing something in another forum and jumbled up the codes 

Yes, I don't know any routes where WN code-shares with any airline, I was just wondering the impact an intercity train starting from a station that is right at the airport will have on short flights between the same cities.


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## jis

Texan Eagle said:


> Yes, I don't know any routes where WN code-shares with any airline, I was just wondering the impact an intercity train starting from a station that is right at the airport will have on short flights between the same cities.


Usually the problem is with checked baggage. If the train service does not have checked baggage integrated with the airline's checked baggage service it creates a breach in seamless service. But still it can be made to work in many cases.


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## CHamilton

Orlando airport eyes FEC rail link

Friday, June 22, 2012



> Officials overseeing Orlando International Airport in central Florida say they have approved a request by Florida East Coast Industries to develop plans linking the airport to the Florida East Coast Railway (FEC).
> 
> The link is a facet of FEC's announced plan to establish "All Aboard Florida" intrastate passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando, and eventually Jacksonville, using active FEC right-of-way for much of the route but expanding service to the Orlando area by adding roughly 40 miles of new right-of-way.


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## afigg

FECI planning Grand destination on downtown Miami land

More info on what the FEC is planning. Ok, so the FEC is looking to build a downtown Miami station on land that it owns. I would expect they plan have a lot of retail space in the station.

What I don't follow is that the article indicates that FECI may be looking at or considering building stations in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Why wouldn't FECI use or stop at the existing Tri-Rail stations in Ft. Lauderdale and WPB? If the Tri-Rail station facilities are not nice enough, still got to be cheaper to upgrade the existing stations than build new ones. Also, I would think the FEC service would want to have direct connections to Tri-Rail, so passengers can take Tri-Rail to the nearest FEC Miami-Orlando service station for trips to Orlando or downtown Miami.


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## jis

afigg said:


> FECI planning Grand destination on downtown Miami land
> 
> More info on what the FEC is planning. Ok, so the FEC is looking to build a downtown Miami station on land that it owns. I would expect they plan have a lot of retail space in the station.
> 
> What I don't follow is that the article indicates that FECI may be looking at or considering building stations in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Why wouldn't FECI use or stop at the existing Tri-Rail stations in Ft. Lauderdale and WPB? If the Tri-Rail station facilities are not nice enough, still got to be cheaper to upgrade the existing stations than build new ones. Also, I would think the FEC service would want to have direct connections to Tri-Rail, so passengers can take Tri-Rail to the nearest FEC Miami-Orlando service station for trips to Orlando or downtown Miami.


I suspect that FECI plans to run its service on FEC. The Tri-Rail Stations are not on FEC. There is also a plan to start a second Tri-Rail route along FEC, and of course to connect the two around West Palm Beach allowing Amtrak and Tri-Rail trains to transfer back and forth between FEC and Tri-Rail.


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## afigg

jis said:


> I suspect that FECI plans to run its service on FEC. The Tri-Rail Stations are not on FEC. There is also a plan to start a second Tri-Rail route along FEC, and of course to connect the two around West Palm Beach allowing Amtrak and Tri-Rail trains to transfer back and forth between FEC and Tri-Rail.


Ah, my bad. I was forgetting where the FEC and Tri-Rail ex-CSX routes would sort of meet up and where an FEC Orlando extension would cross over. Two separate stations in Fort Lauderdale could be confusing at the start. I'll have to look at the WPB map to see how Tri-Rail might provide connections to an FEC Miami-Orlando service.

Miami would have the Tri-Rail & Amtrak station at the Miami Intermodal Center at the airport and a FEC station in downtown Miami which should be easy for most people to keep straight which is which. (I'm envisioning someone jumping into a cab and asking to be taken to the train station and getting taken to the wrong one.)

Looking at Google Earth, the FECI site in downtown Miami looks to be very close to the Miami metrorail station which is pretty damn convenient. Two intercity train stations with different services at different stops on the Miami Metrorail system - one at the airport, the other in downtown? Would provide a significant upgrade in the usefulness of the Miami Metrorail system I would think.

There is a lot more to find out about the details of the FEC plans for their service, but it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Edit: FEC and Tri-Rail route fixes.


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## Anderson

Welcome back to the 50s, folks.

As to the stations, my guess is that the Fort Lauderdale (which has a streetcar project in process at the moment; I'm going to be shocked if FECI isn't working with them to integrate The Wave with their services in some way, but The Wave's planning seems to extend to an implied station with both FEC service and SunPort service by the airport) and Palm Beach projects will be more limited versions of the Miami project...but I don't see FEC _not_ trying to make the stations into something of a centerpiece for a modest development project. Likewise, going off the FEC tracks just _screams_ "mishandle my trains!"

Also, this interests me a _lot_:

"Cumber said the company hopes to start construction on the project in early 2013, with the line open for service the following year. He hoped to make a decision on the cars within the next 60 days and the company would make an announcement about the company that would help plan the project very soon."

I haven't seen the go/no-go report yet, but from the sounds of that the company has already made up their mind and is just trying to grab a supplier. The 2014 timeline still seems ambitious, but...well, it might just happen. I'd like to see that succeed if for no other reason than to slap the EIS process hard upside the head.

One other amusing thing: Amtrak service will go from Orlando (downtown) to Miami (airport). The FEC will be running from Miami (downtown) to Orlando (airport).


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## jphjaxfl

There is enough population along Tri Rail and the FEC to support frequent service on both lines. I think the North Miami FEC station may still exist. It was the Miami terminal for the last FEC train that operated from the Jacksonville yard in 1968. That station is also in one of the I Love Lucy shows where Lucy & Ethel hitchhike from NY to Fl.


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## Anderson

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/SFBJ_June-29-2012.pdf

Mainly a discussion on station locations, but an interesting line: "The goal is for trains to average 100 MPH".


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## jis

Anderson said:


> http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/SFBJ_June-29-2012.pdf
> 
> Mainly a discussion on station locations, but an interesting line: "The goal is for trains to average 100 MPH".


Someone is smoking something. A train that runs with MSP of 90 or less upto WPB and then 110 or less to Cocoa and the balance 40 miles at 125mph, is not going to average 100mph. And there are no trains in the world that average 200mph over any significant distance, since generally their MSP is around 200mph.


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## MattW

I have a spreadsheet that given mileage, top speed, acceleration, and number of stations, computes the best-case times and average speeds along the line.

For this specific route, I used the following mileages from Miami: Fort Lauderdale: 30; West Palm Beach: 64.03; Cocoa: 193.34; Orlando Airport: 229.7. (note, I do not know the actual mileage to Fort Lauderdale, but as long as the number isn't too close to West Palm or Miami, it won't affect the end to end numbers).

And the following speeds: Miami-Fort Lauderdale: 79; Fort Lauderdale-West Palm: 79; West Palm-Cocoa: 110; Cocoa-Orlando Airport: 125.

And assuming an acceleration and braking of 1 mile per hour per second, and 2 minute dwell time per station, and once reaching top speed, the train maintains the speed until slowing for the next station.

With these numbers, the spreadsheet calculates the average end-to--end speed of 92.393 miles per hour with a 2:29:10 run time.

Increasing the West Palm Beach to Cocoa speed to 125mph, brings the average speed to 97.778mph and drops the run time to 2:20:57.

That plus increasing the Cocoa to Orlando Airport speed to 150mph brings the average speed to 99.538mph and a run time of 2:18:28.

Increasing the Miami to West Palm Beach segments to 90mph, and leaving the West Palm Beach to Cocoa segment at 110mph gives an average speed of 95.982mph and a run time of 2:23:35

That plus increasing the West Palm Beach to Cocoa segments to 125mph gives an average speed of 101.806mph and a run time 2:15:22

To achieve an end to end speed of 100mph would require an end to end time of 2:17:49.2

So I have to agree with Jis, there's no way that at those speeds, the FEC can achieve 100mph run time, and given that it is unlikely the FEC will ever run trains at 125mph+ on their existing right of way, I highly doubt this plan will ever see trains averaging 100mph from Miami to Orlando.


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## Anderson

Matt: What if we kick out the dwell times? Assume that the FEC is using some fuzzy math and only counting "train in motion" time (which would give you about an 8-10 minute buffer), what would that offer?

By the way, while we're on the topic, could someone remind me of the Acela's average speed WAS-NYP?


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## jis

With the parameters that Matt is using, and I will add that if I was doing the computation I'd start with something similar too, one must keep in mind that he is already over-estimating the speed and under-estimating the running times. This is so because no train is actually going to run every bit of WPB to Cocoa at 110mph. There are moving bridges with Miter Rails to contend with (70mph), numerous grade crossings and curves around Melbourne and other RoW geometry matters to contend with etc. You can get some idea of the track geometry issues by paging through the detailed EIS for the FEC service. So I suspect the actual avg will be at least a good 5mph below what the rough calculation suggests.

On NEC NYP - WAS best schedule is for something like 83 or 84mph average. The commercial schedule contains 10 to `15 mins worth of contingency time, i.e. if the train had the railroad to itself with no TSRs and no interference and perfect 1 min passenger stops, it could do the run in 10 to 15 less. But that is mostly of theoretical interest since specially on NEC South there is horrendous traffic density and nothing is ever even close to perfect. Current immediate goal is to incerementally get it to 90 or so I believe.


----------



## afigg

One of the major questions for the prospects for the FEC service is what might they get for annual passenger numbers? Some numbers I found to provide some idea on the size of the potential market. I knew there were a lot of people taking cruise ships from southern FL, but would not have guessed that many.

4.3 million cruise ship passengers at the Port of Miami in 2010

3.6 million cruise ship passengers at Port Everglades in Fort Lauderdale

Miami Airport = 38.3 million passengers in 2011 (12th busiest airport in the US)

Orlando Airport = 34.9 million passengers in 2010 (13th busiest airport in the US)

Miami Metropolitan area population = 5.5 million

Orlando metropolitan area population = 2.1 million

According to the Orlando government, they claim 51 million tourists or visitors in 2010. Yikes.

If the FEC can capture even a small percentage of the cruise ship market taking people between Orlando and the ports of Miami and Everglades, some of the Miami <-> Orlando tourists, some of the resident population trips for business and personal travel, the FEC should get respectable ridership numbers.


----------



## NY Penn

If those stats are true, then the FEC could prove very popular, simply because so many people are traveling.

But one statistic in particular seems odd. Not to go OT, but how does Orlando have more tourists than NYC?


----------



## Anderson

NY Penn said:


> If those stats are true, then the FEC could prove very popular, simply because so many people are traveling.
> 
> But one statistic in particular seems odd. Not to go OT, but how does Orlando have more tourists than NYC?


Because a certain mouse ate Florida?

Joking aside, my suspicion is that Orlando's "tourist count" is slightly inflated by Disney/Universal visitor multi-counting (i.e. someone goes to EPCOT, Magic Kingdom, and Universal Studios...and gets counted 3 times as a visitor to all three). However, if one counts out-of-area visitors, Orlando might well still win.

As to the business available, I'm wondering what the baggage situation is likely to be on the FEC. I raise this because it seems that you might be able to get at least some airlines to start working flights "just" into Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, or Miami and then having you connect to a train for the balance of the trip rather than running a shuttle between Miami and Orlando and/or running flights into both Miami and Fort Lauderdale.


----------



## jis

NY Penn said:


> If those stats are true, then the FEC could prove very popular, simply because so many people are traveling.
> 
> But one statistic in particular seems odd. Not to go OT, but how does Orlando have more tourists than NYC?


When I go into NYC from Central Jersey I am typically not counted as a tourist. But when my friends in Melbourne FL go to Orlando they typically get counted as a tourist and they happen to do so dozens of times a year. It all depends on how one counts things.

Unless the highway situation gets much much worse, it is unlikely that my friends in Melbourne would give up on driving to Orlando and opt for the train, except occasionally to just ride the trains. What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?


----------



## AlanB

jis said:


> What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?


They could stand around lobbying for more local public transit options of course! 

I'm surprised you haven't suggested that yet to them! :lol:

Of course, they can't yet take the FEC to Orlando. So you'll have to start pressuring & training them now.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> If those stats are true, then the FEC could prove very popular, simply because so many people are traveling.
> 
> But one statistic in particular seems odd. Not to go OT, but how does Orlando have more tourists than NYC?
> 
> 
> 
> Because a certain mouse ate Florida?
> 
> Joking aside, my suspicion is that Orlando's "tourist count" is slightly inflated by Disney/Universal visitor multi-counting (i.e. someone goes to EPCOT, Magic Kingdom, and Universal Studios...and gets counted 3 times as a visitor to all three). However, if one counts out-of-area visitors, Orlando might well still win.
Click to expand...

Well, the mouse did take a big bite out of central Florida. Found this Orlando Sentinel news article from May, 2011 where the Mayor of Orlando announced 51.5 million visitors in 2010. NYC & Mayor Bloomberg claimed 48.7 million in 2010. Article is amusing because of the discussion on the sniping between NYC and Orlando contesting who is getting the most visitors. Orlando includes a very large area in central FL, NYC counts day-trippers for example. The visitor count is nothing more than an educated guess estimate anyway based on whatever criteria they want to use and I would expect polling the hotel chains, resorts, airports, businesses who may double or triple count some visitors.

The takeaway is that Orlando and NYC are the two top tourist destinations in the USA, running roughly neck and neck in visitor counts. Which is why both of the cities - along with Las Vegas - are prime markets in the US for high or higher speed rail service.



Anderson said:


> As to the business available, I'm wondering what the baggage situation is likely to be on the FEC. I raise this because it seems that you might be able to get at least some airlines to start working flights "just" into Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, or Miami and then having you connect to a train for the balance of the trip rather than running a shuttle between Miami and Orlando and/or running flights into both Miami and Fort Lauderdale.


If the FEC serves Orlando Airport, they would probably set up a baggage handling service to transfer bags directly between the airport and the trains in Orlando. Fly to Orlando, take the train to Ft. Lauderdale or downtown Miami and get your checked bags at the station. If the FEC is planning to serve the cruise ship business and the resorts in Orlando, yea, baggage cars or secured baggage storage areas on their trains and baggage handlers will have to be part of their operation.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> If those stats are true, then the FEC could prove very popular, simply because so many people are traveling.
> 
> But one statistic in particular seems odd. Not to go OT, but how does Orlando have more tourists than NYC?
> 
> 
> 
> When I go into NYC from Central Jersey I am typically not counted as a tourist. But when my friends in Melbourne FL go to Orlando they typically get counted as a tourist and they happen to do so dozens of times a year. It all depends on how one counts things.
> 
> Unless the highway situation gets much much worse, it is unlikely that my friends in Melbourne would give up on driving to Orlando and opt for the train, except occasionally to just ride the trains. What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?
Click to expand...

I'm actually wondering if the FEC folks have talked with Disney/Universal about making their shuttles available to train passengers in some fashion. Failing that, I'm wondering if the FEC might end up doing some sort of analysis on helping out with local funding for this and/or the North/South Light Rail line so as to boost ridership. If they _do_ eventually head west, it might also be possible to get them to consider some sort of transfer station in the Orlando area that would link them to SunRail.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> I'm actually wondering if the FEC folks have talked with Disney/Universal about making their shuttles available to train passengers in some fashion. Failing that, I'm wondering if the FEC might end up doing some sort of analysis on helping out with local funding for this and/or the North/South Light Rail line so as to boost ridership. If they _do_ eventually head west, it might also be possible to get them to consider some sort of transfer station in the Orlando area that would link them to SunRail.


If the FEC people haven't talked to Disney, Universal, and other resorts in the Orlando area, I would think they would have to before getting the funding committed for building the 40 mile extension to Orlando. I assume all of the resorts run shuttle services to the airport, so if the FEC builds a station at the Orlando airport, having the shuttles stop at the FEC station should not be a big deal. Or people walk from the train station to where the shuttles are.

Lots of question remain in all this. Will the new FEC line terminate right at the airport; have a loop at the airport so they don't have to turn their trains around; would they extend it to connect to SunRail (and CSX) in the first phase of a longer range plan to extend to Tampa? Or wait for Orlando to come through with some sweet land and tax deals to entice the FEC to extend to downtown?

If there is a loop at Orlando airport and a Wye connection off of the FEC tracks at the start, allowing connections from the north, would Amtrak run the split Silver Star (or a rerouted Meteor or new Silver service train) down and back on the extension to the Orlando airport and then to Miami? If the FEC is going to build a line to the airport and is willing to allow LD trains on their line, why not also stop at the Orlando Airport?


----------



## jis

AlanB said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?
> 
> 
> 
> They could stand around lobbying for more local public transit options of course!
> 
> I'm surprised you haven't suggested that yet to them! :lol:
> 
> Of course, they can't yet take the FEC to Orlando. So you'll have to start pressuring & training them now.
Click to expand...

Well, I am working towards moving to Florida myself, to the Melbourne area.


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## The Davy Crockett

In reading some of the above posts here are some thoughts:

It is my understanding that the Orlando airport is the planned location of the FEC terminal, and that on paper anyway, the airport has a train station capable of accomodating up to five different rail systems. Sounds like MCO has plans to be a multimodal transportation hub. (It already is when you consider the number of Disney buses and rental cars that flow through it.)

A very large percentage of visitors to Florida are from countries that have good pax rail systems, so these visitors are almost ready customers.

I agree with jis that the 'locals' won't use the system. (Except for the fun of it!  ) I spent a few days on the Treasure Coast recently and the mood there was that it was of no benefit to them.

And along this 'train of thought' hboy: : There are a huge number of grade crossings along the existing FEC. I think there is going to be pushback from local communities about running trains at the speeds the FEC seems to imply in their literature.

Speaking of which, I got an update from the FEC with the heading:



> All Aboard Florida Means Jobs & Opportunities


I thought this paragraph was particularly interesting: (emphasis added}



> Equally exciting is the boost for Florida's workforce and economy that *the country's first privately owned, operated and maintained intercity passenger rail system *will bring.


Umm... :unsure: Really? :blink: What was Amtrak formed from? :giggle:


----------



## Anderson

Another update

It looks like AAF is trickling out the news releases, but my gut says that engaging architects means that the go/no-go report came back positive, or at least isn't leaning towards a negative response.

I'm wondering if there are any thoughts on the two firms. I've never heard of either of them, so I don't know if the selections are an indication of cringe-worthy designs or decent ones.

Finally...I think there will be a decent amount of "local" (i.e. Floridian) business on the line. It won't be leisure trips, necessarily, but I think there's a leg up to be had on the business side (since you can spend the _whole_ three hours working rather than having blobs of time taken up at security or sitting on the tarmac...not to mention the unreliable nature of south Florida driving). In this vein, I would point out that you have four options with this for a Miami-Orlando business trip:

-Drive. Roughly 4:00 each way, 230-240 miles if you use the Turnpike (plus toll costs). Cost to business: $250-ish in mileage expenses plus tolls (assuming $.56/mile).

-Drive. Roughly 4:20-4:30 each way, 245 miles if you shunpike. Cost to business: $275-ish in mileage expenses plus tolls.

-Fly. Assume 1:00-1:15 en route, 45 minutes for security/check-in/boarding, 15-20 minutes for getting _out_ of the airport/getting a rental car, and about 25 minutes on each end getting to/from the airport. Roughly 3:00 total. Cost: At least $152 (AA's lowest advertised rate) plus car rental.

-Train. 3:00-ish en route, about 10 minutes less travel time to/from the airports. Cost: $100-120 plus car rental based on the estimates I've seen tossed about.

So...from what I can tell, the train has a narrow edge on cost over flying and a major one on driving versus billable mileage. I believe that the train is expected to cost around $50-60ish each way.


----------



## railbuck

Anderson said:


> It looks like AAF is trickling out the news releases, but my gut says that engaging architects means that the go/no-go report came back positive, or at least isn't leaning towards a negative response.
> 
> I'm wondering if there are any thoughts on the two firms. I've never heard of either of them, so I don't know if the selections are an indication of cringe-worthy designs or decent ones.


SOM is, as the press release says, a well-established, solid firm. They should do a fine job with a touch of class, though perhaps not with the panache of a starchitect like Calatrava.


----------



## Anderson

railbuck said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like AAF is trickling out the news releases, but my gut says that engaging architects means that the go/no-go report came back positive, or at least isn't leaning towards a negative response.
> 
> I'm wondering if there are any thoughts on the two firms. I've never heard of either of them, so I don't know if the selections are an indication of cringe-worthy designs or decent ones.
> 
> 
> 
> SOM is, as the press release says, a well-established, solid firm. They should do a fine job with a touch of class, though perhaps not with the panache of a starchitect like Calatrava.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear. My main concern is always that you get "well established kooks", so to speak...firms that have been around for a while but that throw out some _strange_ designs (such as some of the World Trade Center replacement proposals, including several versions of what was ultimately chosen).


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anderson said:


> Finally...I think there will be a decent amount of "local" (i.e. Floridian) business on the line. It won't be leisure trips, necessarily, but I think there's a leg up to be had on the business side (since you can spend the _whole_ three hours working rather than having blobs of time taken up at security or sitting on the tarmac...not to mention the unreliable nature of south Florida driving). In this vein, I would point out that you have four options with this for a Miami-Orlando business trip:
> 
> -Drive. Roughly 4:00 each way, 230-240 miles if you use the Turnpike (plus toll costs). Cost to business: $250-ish in mileage expenses plus tolls (assuming $.56/mile).
> 
> -Drive. Roughly 4:20-4:30 each way, 245 miles if you shunpike. Cost to business: $275-ish in mileage expenses plus tolls.
> 
> -Fly. Assume 1:00-1:15 en route, 45 minutes for security/check-in/boarding, 15-20 minutes for getting _out_ of the airport/getting a rental car, and about 25 minutes on each end getting to/from the airport. Roughly 3:00 total. Cost: At least $152 (AA's lowest advertised rate) plus car rental.
> 
> -Train. 3:00-ish en route, about 10 minutes less travel time to/from the airports. Cost: $100-120 plus car rental based on the estimates I've seen tossed about.
> 
> So...from what I can tell, the train has a narrow edge on cost over flying and a major one on driving versus billable mileage. I believe that the train is expected to cost around $50-60ish each way.


If they were really after the 'local' business north of West Palm, they would sacrifice total run time for at least a couple of intermediate stations. Are there 'locals' in South Florida who will use it to get to Orlando and vise-versa? Sure, but having NO stations between West Palm and Orlando is a long stretch of track. It certainly doesn't fill the need for better non-automotive transportation options up and down the east coast of Florida.


----------



## jis

The Davy Crockett said:


> If they were really after the 'local' business north of West Palm, they would sacrifice total run time for at least a couple of intermediate stations. Are there 'locals' in South Florida who will use it to get to Orlando and vise-versa? Sure, but having NO stations between West Palm and Orlando is a long stretch of track. It certainly doesn't fill the need for better non-automotive transportation options up and down the east coast of Florida.


The service is designed to be for travel only from MIA/FLL area to Orlando. It is not designed for local use and it will hardly be used as such for that reason. It is sort of like the Amtrak plan for the Super Express service on the NEC serving only Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston. Not meant for local travel. Fortunately NEC has lots of other options, and will have even more options going forward. Unfortunately, apparently Florida will have no other options. So people will just continue to use cars.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they were really after the 'local' business north of West Palm, they would sacrifice total run time for at least a couple of intermediate stations. Are there 'locals' in South Florida who will use it to get to Orlando and vise-versa? Sure, but having NO stations between West Palm and Orlando is a long stretch of track. It certainly doesn't fill the need for better non-automotive transportation options up and down the east coast of Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> The service is designed to be for travel only from MIA/FLL area to Orlando. It is not designed for local use and it will hardly be used as such for that reason. It is sort of like the Amtrak plan for the Super Express service on the NEC serving only Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston. Not meant for local travel. Fortunately NEC has lots of other options, and will have even more options going forward. Unfortunately, apparently Florida will have no other options. So people will just continue to use cars.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. It depends on what happens with the Amtrak FEC plans in particular. I know there's also substantial speculation on a Cocoa station (either now or once the project starts moving along...it is probably going to be necessary if they extend the plans to Jacksonville). A distinct possibility is that FEC does the longer-distance travel while Amtrak handles the local stuff on both Silvers running down the corridor and/or an added corridor train or two. I'm willing to speculate that FEC doing service to Orlando might actually help Amtrak in this regard. Of course, God help everyone involved if Amtrak's operations on the line are substantially profitable...if I had to guess, Silvers aside that will trigger a _real_ food fight since FEC is going to want those profits for themselves and you'll at _least_ get a war over access fees.

The other thing: If business is brisk enough (always a big "if"), once Amtrak fires up their service at FEC-owned stations (presuming they do) it seems possible that FEC might add one or two stops along there into a few schedules (not unlike the Acelas that add, for example, Metropark or Trenton). This is probably going to require the operation to be profitable and them to be willing to swap about 10-12 minutes on runtime (for two added stops, for example), but it seems quite possible as a trick for "off hour" trains. This strikes me as more of a possibility if they go for the Jacksonville extension, however.


----------



## George Harris

jis said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they were really after the 'local' business north of West Palm, they would sacrifice total run time for at least a couple of intermediate stations. Are there 'locals' in South Florida who will use it to get to Orlando and vise-versa? Sure, but having NO stations between West Palm and Orlando is a long stretch of track. It certainly doesn't fill the need for better non-automotive transportation options up and down the east coast of Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> The service is designed to be for travel only from MIA/FLL area to Orlando. It is not designed for local use and it will hardly be used as such for that reason. It is sort of like the Amtrak plan for the Super Express service on the NEC serving only Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston. Not meant for local travel. Fortunately NEC has lots of other options, and will have even more options going forward. Unfortunately, apparently Florida will have no other options. So people will just continue to use cars.
Click to expand...

It is not necessary or even desirable that all trains make all stops. If you look at the Taiwan high speed railway as an example, 210 miles end to end: Every hour there is a one-stop train, an all stops north of Taichung, no intermedate stops south, an express to Taichung, then all all stops south, then an all stops train. The fastest, 1:35, the slowest 2 hours flat.


----------



## jis

George Harris said:


> It is not necessary or even desirable that all trains make all stops. If you look at the Taiwan high speed railway as an example, 210 miles end to end: Every hour there is a one-stop train, an all stops north of Taichung, no intermedate stops south, an express to Taichung, then all all stops south, then an all stops train. The fastest, 1:35, the slowest 2 hours flat.


I agree. However, FEC plans at present do not call for such. They mention only three stops for whatever service. That is what I was commenting on.

As for Amtrak may or may not do etc. I have no clue. But my point was that the currently planned FEC service is not designed to serve areas like Brevard or Indian River County at all. No stops between WPB and Orlando planned as of this moment. Of course all that could change, but I don't have a clear enough Crystal Ball to comment on that at present.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not necessary or even desirable that all trains make all stops. If you look at the Taiwan high speed railway as an example, 210 miles end to end: Every hour there is a one-stop train, an all stops north of Taichung, no intermedate stops south, an express to Taichung, then all all stops south, then an all stops train. The fastest, 1:35, the slowest 2 hours flat.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. However, FEC plans at present do not call for such. They mention only three stops for whatever service. That is what I was commenting on.
> 
> As for Amtrak may or may not do etc. I have no clue. But my point was that the currently planned FEC service is not designed to serve areas like Brevard or Indian River County at all. No stops between WPB and Orlando planned as of this moment. Of course all that could change, but I don't have a clear enough Crystal Ball to comment on that at present.
Click to expand...

My understanding with the FEC's plans is that they have been looking into Cocoa as an additional stop. This may or may not happen in the short term; if they are serious about the Jacksonville extension (which is suggested in the plans), I think it will be inevitable so as to allow transfers between ORL-MIA trains and MIA-JAX trains (especially since I suspect that running lots of ORL-JAX trains in addition to the other two sets might be inefficient...not that there won't be _any_, but I don't think there would be the business for a dedicated hourly service on both lines at the moment).

I suspect that the best argument against lots of stops, at least on the first batches of trains, is avoiding short-distance traffic crowding out long-distance traffic. Density and traffic are likely such that at least on the "first go", traffic from Miami to various locations along the coast could block out MIA-ORL traffic.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> I suspect that the best argument against lots of stops, at least on the first batches of trains, is avoiding short-distance traffic crowding out long-distance traffic. Density and traffic are likely such that at least on the "first go", traffic from Miami to various locations along the coast could block out MIA-ORL traffic.


A capable outfit manages such things by managing inventory. Not by simply not stopping at all.


----------



## George Harris

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the best argument against lots of stops, at least on the first batches of trains, is avoiding short-distance traffic crowding out long-distance traffic. Density and traffic are likely such that at least on the "first go", traffic from Miami to various locations along the coast could block out MIA-ORL traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> A capable outfit manages such things by managing inventory. Not by simply not stopping at all.
Click to expand...

That area seems to need some work. Maybe it is better now, because my experience was in 1995, but I spent a few months working off and on in Newark NJ with nNorthern Virginia as teh alternative. I would get the "sold out train" out of Newark and then leave as early as I could using the NJT-SEPTA method. At Philadelphia there would be a masive bailout of the trains out of New York leaving it little mroe than half full going south. So . . . How many longer haul passengers were turned away because the trains was filled with short hauls on only part of the trip?


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the best argument against lots of stops, at least on the first batches of trains, is avoiding short-distance traffic crowding out long-distance traffic. Density and traffic are likely such that at least on the "first go", traffic from Miami to various locations along the coast could block out MIA-ORL traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> A capable outfit manages such things by managing inventory. Not by simply not stopping at all.
Click to expand...

Ehh...yes and no. "Not stopping" is a form of inventory management (namely, setting the inventory option for the skipped stop to zero), albeit potentially a crude one.

Let me step into the shoes of FEC's management. I'm looking at a report that says I can get a fairly high load factor on these trains at a rate of one per hour. I need to get service to within a given range of times (that is, I want trip times to be in the three-hour range) in order to attract business, meaning that I need to limit my stops as much as is practical. So I limit the stops I make as much as possible.

Moreover, those stops add to trip time...and adding too much trip time can force me to add a set or two to the route. Assuming an eight-hour cycle for a train (3 hours NB, an hour at Orlando, 3 hours SB, an hour at Miami), adding more than about 10-15 minutes to the schedule might force me to add one or two sets to the mix to make my desired hourly service. Those sets cost money (possibly $20m or more apiece, depending on the manufacturer and so on); further, those added stations also cost money. Of course, they'll also bring in additional revenue...but I might run into a space squeeze (through traffic being blocked out because of asymmetric short-haul traffic on one side of one stop or another), and simply put I might not be able to add enough additional passengers without lots of additional expense to make things worthwhile.

If I'm in FEC's shoes, I'm going to do the following:

-Miami-to-Orlando will be as we have it now, with a possible added stop in Cocoa. The problem with a Cocoa stop is that it's almost assuredly going to be a net addition for trains headed to/from Miami but not to/from Orlando, potentially gutting out a decent amount of traffic heading to/from Orlando. So I'm going to hold off there.

-If I find that there is room on the "shoulder" trains and/or off-hour trains, I'll add Cocoa but for Cocoa-Miami space almost as if it were Orlando-Miami space. Also, Cocoa won't be a stop on some of the peak-hour trains (again, managing inventory to zero on those trains). I'll probably need to have at least half of the trains make this stop to justify building a new station, etc.

-If the trains are completely full enough of the time, I'm going to have to weigh extending the sets (i.e. adding 1-2 cars), adding frequencies (which, aside from a possible "extra" at peak hours, is something I'm going to be averse to unless the operation is gushing money...I've got freight to ship, after all), or just not serving Cocoa.

-With respect to the possible Jacksonville extension, I'll add local stops on those since the Jacksonville metro area simply isn't as large (or growing as fast) as the Orlando area, let alone Orlando+Tampa...and that's probably going to force my hand on some of these trains. However, if I'm also adding Tampa, I'll probably be having to revamp my sets and order new ones to deal with added capacity issues, so I'm going to assume some sort of overhaul at this point anyway.

Finally, a worthwhile question: If the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions go in, what are the odds that Florida and the FEC seriously look at some commuter options in the relevant metro areas (with state/local subsidies to cover costs)? They're seriously looking at conneting Deland to Orlando as it is...why not Daytona and St. Augustine to downtown Jacksonville or Orlando/Kissimmee to Tampa and vice-versa? I know this is a long way off, but it does come to mind, especially given the chatter about Trirail options on the FEC.


----------



## afigg

Saw this Reuters news story link on rr.net on the FEC announcing that they will go ahead with the $1 billion project. Some excerpts.



> Reuters) - A Miami real estate and transportation company announced Wednesday that it plans to go ahead with a $1 billion project to build a privately run passenger train service between Miami and Orlando to begin operations by the end of 2014.
> Florida East Coast Industries said its "All Aboard Florida" project is financially viable without any need for federal and state grants or subsidies.
> 
> "After completing our due diligence we have decided to go through with it," said Husein Cumber, vice president of corporate development at Florida East Coast Railway, which operates the company's existing freight line.
> 
> Construction would begin in early 2013, Cumber said, and when completed the new service would be the only privately run, non-subsidized passenger rail link between two major cities in the United States. A similar private scheme has been proposed in Texas to link Houston and Dallas.


10 trainsets?



> The $1 billion cost includes a set of 10 diesel-powered trains with a 400-seat capacity offering an hourly service with First-class and Business-class seating, gourmet dining and Wi-Fi, as well as new tracks and stations in downtown Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and the Orlando airport.
> The trains would make the journey in 3 hours 3 minutes traveling at speeds of up to 110 mph at a "cost competitive" price compared to the cheapest round-trip airfare of $140-160 or the roughly $120 cost of car travel, Cumber said.


Still many questions to be answered and specifics to be filled in such as 1) where they would build and how they would fund the extension to Orlando Airport; 2) Would Amtrak run a Jacksonville to Miami Central Station corridor service train OR would Amtrak only run LD trains on the FEC while the FEC runs all corridor trains?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> Still many questions to be answered and specifics to be filled in such as 1) where they would build and how they would fund the extension to Orlando Airport; 2) Would Amtrak run a Jacksonville to Miami Central Station corridor service train OR would Amtrak only run LD trains on the FEC while the FEC runs all corridor trains?



The only real choice, AFAIK, for the routing of the line from the coast to MCO is along, or in the median of, Route 528 (formerly known as The Beeline). I know nothing about the funding, but as I believe jis brought up: If they use part of Rt. 528's ROW, and don't pay fair market value for the right, are they not getting a subsidy from the state?

Whether Amtrak or the FEC runs corridor service, is a good qustion. For the FEC, it probably depends on whether they think they can make money directly, or indirectly through real estate holdings, by doing so. In either case, hopefully the new Miami-Orlando service will generate enough interest along Florida's Atlantic coast to expedite the start of some type of corridor service before the 'newnwss' starts to fade.


----------



## afigg

An August 9 Miami Herald article on the latest announcement from the FEC on their plans.

I remain very skeptical about starting service to Orlando airport in 2014. They are going to build 40 miles of new tracks with the land and ROW acquisitions, EIS documents, building permits in 2 years? Has to be a catch somewhere. And 4 new stations as well?

If the FEC says they plan to acquire 10 trainsets with a capacity of 400 each, no time like the present to start speculating on what equipment is the FEC planning to buy and where they can get it by 2014!


----------



## MikefromCrete

afigg said:


> An August 9 Miami Herald article on the latest announcement from the FEC on their plans.
> 
> I remain very skeptical about starting service to Orlando airport in 2014. They are going to build 40 miles of new tracks with the land and ROW acquisitions, EIS documents, building permits in 2 years? Has to be a catch somewhere. And 4 new stations as well?
> 
> If the FEC says they plan to acquire 10 trainsets with a capacity of 400 each, no time like the present to start speculating on what equipment is the FEC planning to buy and where they can get it by 2014!


Well, there's two Talgo sets already built, looking for an owner. Talgo would probably be glad to crank out another eight sets to help pay for that Milwaukee manufacturing plant, they likely would be willing to negotiate a good price. The building of 40 miles of new track in less than two years seem problematic. It's unclear if the new track would use a brand new right of way or follow a utility alignment. Either way dirt should start flying pretty soon, although Florida does have a climate for year-round construction (except when hurricanes come whipping through. )


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## The Davy Crockett

Let the speculation games begin.

Isn't 397 the number of passengers the orphaned Talgos are designed to carry?

Hmmm...


----------



## Anderson

First of all, I am _extremely_ happy to see this. Yes, the times are changing.

For good or ill, If I had to guess, any attempt by Amtrak to run separate corridor trains on the FEC is going to turn into a world-class punch up when all is said and done. The LD trains won't be a problem, but a strictly corridor operation is going to cause a headache. For one thing, if the service is likely to be profitable, FEC would want those trains. Moreover, if it's _not_ profitable, current law will require Florida to back it...which FEC is probably going to try and get them not to do.

With that said, I think the solution is probably going to be that FEC cooperates on through-ticketing and might be willing to let Amtrak.com book the trains...but manages them in-house (since FEC would be handling the dispatching, probably the scheduling, and quite possibly the crewing). This would actually be the best situation for Amtrak and a local train if Amtrak could get a small commission for handling those bookings.

One thing I'm wondering: They're mentioning financing the operation with a combination of debt and equity...I wonder where the equity (i.e. stocks) will be sold, since if nothing else I _do_ want to make something of a "symbolic purchase" of a share or two to show support.


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## jis

The Davy Crockett said:


> Let the speculation games begin.
> 
> Isn't 397 the number of passengers the orphaned Talgos are designed to carry?
> 
> Hmmm...


They just need to add 3 jump seats by the toilets and Voila! 400! :lol:


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## afigg

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, there's two Talgo sets already built, looking for an owner. Talgo would probably be glad to crank out another eight sets to help pay for that Milwaukee manufacturing plant, they likely would be willing to negotiate a good price. The building of 40 miles of new track in less than two years seem problematic. It's unclear if the new track would use a brand new right of way or follow a utility alignment. Either way dirt should start flying pretty soon, although Florida does have a climate for year-round construction (except when hurricanes come whipping through. )


Remember that because FEC is privately funded, they do not have to comply with the Buy American act or buy the rolling stock from US located assembly plants. So the FEC can buy the rolling stock from who ever and where they want. The news I recall reading about the Talgo facility in Milwaukee is that Talgo was shutting it down in stages as the 4 train sets were being completed.

What the FEC could do is to buy the 2 Talgo sets from Wisconsin for so much on the dollar and then order 8 more FRA compliant identical trainsets to be built by Talgo in Spain or where ever Talgo has a suitable manufacturing plant. It costs money to start up a new plant for a limited production run. Talgo likely lost a fair amount of money on setting up the Wisconsin plant in order to comply with the US based manufacturing requirements that federal and state public agencies are subject to with the goal of getting a foothold in the US market. If FEC does buy the 2 Wisconsin Talgos, those 2 train sets should get a nickname - the Walker discount specials or something better than that.

If FEC does buy the coach cars from overseas, the cars can be delivered right to the port of Miami and the FEC tracks. A few cars would have to go to Pueblo for testing, but direct shipment to Miami would likely save the FEC a few bucks.

Edit: forgot to add this. About the route to Orlando airport, look at State toll road 528 on Google Earth (or equivalent). It is a limited access highway with a large median strip that is remarkably straight with just a few wide curves. Rt. 528 passes right over the FEC tracks in Cocoa at a location with a lot of open ground. It then passes directly north of Orlando Airport. This has to be where the FEC is planning to build the extension to the airport. Then you can see where Rt. 528 runs to I-4 which then goes to Tampa - over the route that was going to be used for the Tampa to Orlando HSR line. If the FEC builds it, we can be sure that the FEC will lock up ownership of the tracks and control of the ROW, so any future HSR line in Florida over that route in FL would be under the control of the FEC. I suspect Gov. Scott won't have any qualms about signing away the ROW and future rights for many decades to a private company.


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## Anderson

First of all, let me start by saying that I don't have a problem with FEC having the ROW as long as passenger service is "there to stay" with decent frequencies. In all fairness, this will give CSX a competitor in the central Florida market (something that hasn't really been there since the SAL/ACL merger back in the 60s). Yeah, that's freight...but I think we've agreed several times over that freight is no small part of the reason that the FEC is pursuing this.

Also, I am going to take a stab that had the Orlampa project gone through, there's a chance that had phase two started up, FEC would have gotten involved, such is their entanglement in FL politics.

As to the trainsets...10 is what I think most of us figured would be needed a while back. My only qualm is the use of sets instead of cars...it's entirely an operational decision, but I just tend to think that having a bunch of cars that can be reassembled to meet demand shifts and/or not having to pile up mileage/wear and tear on the half-empty trains at the far ends of the schedule.

So the FEC is going to be in control of any HSR in the state. Honestly, that's not a bad thing. They seem to be a competent company and it's no worse than JR Central running the high-speed trains heading west out of Tokyo. Like I indicated before, I don't know that Amtrak was even going to get the operating contract here.

What IS important here is that a private company has seen fit to put a billion dollars into a new high-speed operation, presumably without the government chipping in directly. That says something big right there.

Mind you, I strongly support government involvement in transit plans and so forth...but I've also become sorely disenchanted with the burial-by-paperwork that federal plans recieve. To offer an example, had we been stuck with the federal high speed rail program for the Norfolk line, my understanding is that we'd have been lucky to get that in 20 years (if even then). Instead, the VA-NS initiative has gotten that wrapped up in the space of about three years. The detailed requirements for EISes and so forth to get federal funding (and the fact that the Feds are the 400-pound gorilla in terms of funding, meaning that it's not practical for a local, or even local-state, initiative to go anywhere without their support in most cases because...well, think about the relative burden put on the local tax base if the Feds aren't involved vs. if they are at an 80-20 Fed-Other match) have managed to smother a lot of transit projects, and the lack of programs at higher levels to secure operating subsidies on a longer-term basis have stopped others from even getting a serious proposal.

So I hope the FEC succeeds, if for no other reason than to humiliate the DOT. Yes, I know that some of this will break bad on Amtrak (which is always stuck under those requirements), but I'm at least hopeful that if a private company can do this well, it will be a much-needed slap in the face of the federal planning process.


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## MattW

The only problem I see with the FEC is that it may prevent politicians being so keen to support projects elsewhere with governmental funding in the future. They may point at the FEC and say "if the private sector can do it, let them, don't come to us." What will be hard to make them realize however is that the FEC is a unique case, the investment in passenger service is aimed at increasing the value of their other operations and will be subsidizing the passenger service with those probably.


----------



## Anderson

MattW said:


> The only problem I see with the FEC is that it may prevent politicians being so keen to support projects elsewhere with governmental funding in the future. They may point at the FEC and say "if the private sector can do it, let them, don't come to us." What will be hard to make them realize however is that the FEC is a unique case, the investment in passenger service is aimed at increasing the value of their other operations and will be subsidizing the passenger service with those probably.


I think it both is and isn't unique. It is unique insofar as there being an operation that can offset the capital cost; I don't think it is unique in terms of being a line that can support high-frequency passenger service with a positive cash flow situation. It's also somewhat unique in that the FEC has an alignment that can be put to higher-speed passenger use (a stops-included 80 MPH average is something that even Amtrak manages to have trouble pulling off on the NEC) without massive improvements.

Still, I get your point...part of the problem, though, is that the funding in question comes with an absurd amount of red tape. I'm starting to wonder if it might not be worth serious consideration for states to simply invest in a joint venture of some sort with private companies (perhaps with certain default protections giving the state the right to either take over the line or to run the trains with Amtrak) that somehow get around the _direct_ red tape issues as much as possible.

I think this should potentially be considered in the context of the Desert Xpress/Xpress West project as well. That one is looking to succeed...but only if the Feds are willing to extend a large RRIF loan. Both lines do present possibilities...and I cannot help but wonder if SEHSR, for example, couldn't be achieved in a similar manner (i.e. Work out a deal with CSX and/or Norfolk Southern where the government pays for the new line but where everything else is up to the companies to sort out as long as they achieve a given set of service requirements). I know this isn't likely at the moment, but it is at least worth seriously considering as an approach considering the mess that a lot of rail projects seem to get bogged down in.*

*For example, I know that the WI and OH projects were scrapped after twenty years of progress...my question is why the [bleep] did it take twenty years to round up the funding and get _ready_ to build?


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> As to the trainsets...10 is what I think most of us figured would be needed a while back. My only qualm is the use of sets instead of cars...it's entirely an operational decision, but I just tend to think that having a bunch of cars that can be reassembled to meet demand shifts and/or not having to pile up mileage/wear and tear on the half-empty trains at the far ends of the schedule.


We don't know if FEC will be buying fixed consist trainsets or individual cars. The 10 trainsets with a capacity of 400 is all the news article says. Could be Bombardier Multilevel cars with reclining seats and extra leg room suitable for 3 hour trips.

Heck, the FEC could team with Amtrak on a combined buy of Viewliner coach cars for all we know. The FEC would contract the maintenance of the coach cars to Hileah. Unlikely, though, I would think the FEC would want to buy off the shelf equipment that they have full control over for maintenance and spare parts considerations.

If the FEC is looking for 125 mph capable diesel locomotives, would they buy 10-12 of the NextGen diesel units in a separate order?



Anderson said:


> Mind you, I strongly support government involvement in transit plans and so forth...but I've also become sorely disenchanted with the burial-by-paperwork that federal plans recieve. To offer an example, had we been stuck with the federal high speed rail program for the Norfolk line, my understanding is that we'd have been lucky to get that in 20 years (if even then). Instead, the VA-NS initiative has gotten that wrapped up in the space of about three years. The detailed requirements for EISes and so forth to get federal funding (and the fact that the Feds are the 400-pound gorilla in terms of funding, meaning that it's not practical for a local, or even local-state, initiative to go anywhere without their support in most cases because...well, think about the relative burden put on the local tax base if the Feds aren't involved vs. if they are at an 80-20 Fed-Other match) have managed to smother a lot of transit projects, and the lack of programs at higher levels to secure operating subsidies on a longer-term basis have stopped others from even getting a serious proposal.


I think it has become recognized by both the administration and Congress as just how long and dragged out the entire process has become from the Tier I and II EIS to a Record of Decision to getting funding approval for transportation projects. The Obama Administration announced some months ago a "fast" track program initiative for a number of road and transit projects, including the Red Line light rail in Baltimore. There is a need to reform the process without throwing away the necessary steps of environmental and financial review, but achieving a consensus on almost anything, let alone a well thought out consensus, in Congress has been impossible since the last election.


----------



## afigg

MattW said:


> The only problem I see with the FEC is that it may prevent politicians being so keen to support projects elsewhere with governmental funding in the future. They may point at the FEC and say "if the private sector can do it, let them, don't come to us." What will be hard to make them realize however is that the FEC is a unique case, the investment in passenger service is aimed at increasing the value of their other operations and will be subsidizing the passenger service with those probably.


The FEC and the XpressWest projects, as the only serious private rail corridor projects in the near term, have a major key factor in common. They are both looking to take tourists to the major recreational tourist destinations in the US: Las Vegas and Orlando. Not business travelers between LA and SF, DC and NYC, Dallas to Houston. The FEC is looking to carry large volumes of passengers to the resort complexes and conventions in Orlando where most of the visitors will have no need for a car. XpressWest is looking to carry large volumes of people from Southern California to Vegas to the casinos, the clubs, and conventions.

The resorts in Orlando and the casinos in Vegas (especially the casinos in Vegas) are good candidates for providing funding and direct support for the 2 private projects. These are both unique sets of circumstances that will be difficult to do elsewhere with private capital taking the lead on HSR or HrSR projects instead of state governments.

On the XpressWest front, I think that we may indeed see their RRIF loan application granted in the next several weeks. Congress is not in session, so less caterwauling from the Republicans in DC if a loan is announced. The DC press corps and pundits will either be following Romney's every move (or gaff) or on vacation prior to the two party conventions. Good time to announce the loan so the administration and the FRA can get the story out with less yammering from those opposed to HSR.

edit: left out a key word


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only problem I see with the FEC is that it may prevent politicians being so keen to support projects elsewhere with governmental funding in the future. They may point at the FEC and say "if the private sector can do it, let them, don't come to us." What will be hard to make them realize however is that the FEC is a unique case, the investment in passenger service is aimed at increasing the value of their other operations and will be subsidizing the passenger service with those probably.
> 
> 
> 
> The FEC and the XpressWest projects, as the only serious private rail corridor projects in the near term, have a major key factor in common. They are both looking to take tourists to the major recreational tourist destinations in the US: Las Vegas and Orlando. Not business travelers between LA and SF, DC and NYC, Dallas to Houston. The FEC is looking to carry large volumes of passengers to the resort complexes and conventions in Orlando where most of the visitors will have no need for a car. XpressWest is looking to carry large volumes of people from Southern California to Vegas to the casinos, the clubs, and conventions.
> 
> The resorts in Orlando and the casinos in Vegas (especially the casinos in Vegas) are good candidates for providing funding and direct support for the 2 private projects. These are both unique sets of circumstances that will be difficult to do with private capital taking the lead on HSR or HrSR projects instead of state governments.
> 
> On the XpressWest front, I think that we may indeed see their RRIF loan application granted in the next several weeks. Congress is not in session, so less caterwauling from the Republicans in DC if a loan is announced. The DC press corps and pundits will either be following Romney's every move (or gaff) or on vacation prior to the two party conventions. Good time to announce the loan so the administration and the FRA can get the story out with less yammering from those opposed to HSR.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the big problem isn't so much the _state_ governments funding things...it's the Feds' red tape piles. Again...in a lot of cases, for many years you've had projects where states and localities will be prepared to set money aside if they can get a match...only to have to wade through years of paperwork, studies, and legal hurdles to _try_ and get that match. Not that states aren't occasionally guilty of this themselves (witness the CA laws potentially jamming up the HSR program out there), but for the most part the problem is that the states either have to shell out 100% of the cost of a program (vs. the 90/10 match on interstate highway programs or the various other matches).

Basically, even if the state is prepared to fund a program, the burden without federal funding can be prohibitive. In VA, for a quick example of a midsized state, the DOT budget in 2010 was $3,378m. However, once you exclude Federal matches, that drops to $2,534m. Richmond-Washington HSR is, IIRC, expected to cost about $1.8bn, or an amount equal to 71% of the state transportation budget for a year. Even spread over 10 years, that would equal about 7.1% of the annual budget...something that just isn't in the cards at the state level in practical terms. So you're stuck with either a decade long process of EISes and whatnot or you just can't afford the program. I think the term "chains of gold" would apply here pretty accurately.

I'll actually say that I crossed the bridge a while back that I'm just about ready to throw the baby out with the bath water on the environmental side of things. The feasibility stuff makes perfect sense in some regards, but that can be done relatively quickly (heck, look at the apparent two-month turnaround from the FEC). What's more, on the financial side, I'd even be willing to see this cut back dramatically if the state/local folks were willing to commit contractually to fund the program for X years (where X is a rather large number) and where the burden of a flop wouldn't be _too_ bad. I'd still want _something_ here for disclosure and prioritization purposes, but the red tape is sufficiently smothering at this point that it is clearly in my sights for good or for ill.


----------



## Eric S

The Davy Crockett said:


> Let the speculation games begin.
> 
> Isn't 397 the number of passengers the orphaned Talgos are designed to carry?
> 
> Hmmm...


According to a Talgo official at a WisARP meeting back in the spring, the 2 WI Talgo sets have a capacity of 396, including 12 jumpseats.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Eric S said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let the speculation games begin.
> 
> Isn't 397 the number of passengers the orphaned Talgos are designed to carry?
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> According to a Talgo official at a WisARP meeting back in the spring, the 2 WI Talgo sets have a capacity of 396, including 12 jumpseats.
Click to expand...

I don't know where he got his number, but I got mine from Talgo HERE.


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## rrdude

Anderson said:


> First of all, let me start by saying that I don't have a problem with FEC having the ROW as long as passenger service is "there to stay" with decent frequencies. In all fairness, this will give CSX a competitor in the central Florida market (something that hasn't really been there since the SAL/ACL merger back in the 60s). Yeah, that's freight...but I think we've agreed several times over that freight is no small part of the reason that the FEC is pursuing this.
> 
> Also, I am going to take a stab that had the Orlampa project gone through, there's a chance that had phase two started up, FEC would have gotten involved, such is their entanglement in FL politics.
> 
> As to the trainsets...10 is what I think most of us figured would be needed a while back. My only qualm is the use of sets instead of cars...it's entirely an operational decision, but I just tend to think that having a bunch of cars that can be reassembled to meet demand shifts and/or not having to pile up mileage/wear and tear on the half-empty trains at the far ends of the schedule.
> 
> So the FEC is going to be in control of any HSR in the state. Honestly, that's not a bad thing. They seem to be a competent company and it's no worse than JR Central running the high-speed trains heading west out of Tokyo. Like I indicated before, I don't know that Amtrak was even going to get the operating contract here.
> 
> What IS important here is that a private company has seen fit to put a billion dollars into a new high-speed operation, presumably without the government chipping in directly. That says something big right there.
> 
> Mind you, I strongly support government involvement in transit plans and so forth...but I've also become sorely disenchanted with the burial-by-paperwork that federal plans recieve. To offer an example, had we been stuck with the federal high speed rail program for the Norfolk line, my understanding is that we'd have been lucky to get that in 20 years (if even then). Instead, the VA-NS initiative has gotten that wrapped up in the space of about three years. The detailed requirements for EISes and so forth to get federal funding (and the fact that the Feds are the 400-pound gorilla in terms of funding, meaning that it's not practical for a local, or even local-state, initiative to go anywhere without their support in most cases because...well, think about the relative burden put on the local tax base if the Feds aren't involved vs. if they are at an 80-20 Fed-Other match) have managed to smother a lot of transit projects, and the lack of programs at higher levels to secure operating subsidies on a longer-term basis have stopped others from even getting a serious proposal.
> 
> So I hope the FEC succeeds, if for no other reason than to humiliate the DOT. Yes, I know that some of this will break bad on Amtrak (which is always stuck under those requirements), but I'm at least hopeful that if a private company can do this well, it will be a much-needed slap in the face of the federal planning process.


Anderson? Twins sons from another-mutha? That's about the most PERFECT reply / response to the FEC and pax rail / HSR I've seen. Like you were reading my mind. Run for office will ya? Or better yet, run a large, profitable transportation company, and show the FEDS how to do HSR. Oh wait, you'll need political connections, so run for office, FIRST.


----------



## Eric S

The Davy Crockett said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let the speculation games begin.
> 
> Isn't 397 the number of passengers the orphaned Talgos are designed to carry?
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> According to a Talgo official at a WisARP meeting back in the spring, the 2 WI Talgo sets have a capacity of 396, including 12 jumpseats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know where he got his number, but I got mine from Talgo HERE.
Click to expand...

Eh, 396, 397, close enough. I think I received a similar handout at that WisARP meeting actually.


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## afigg

Another local newspaper article, a Sun Sentinel story titled New Miami-Orlando train service could be boon to downtowns.

The article does point this out: "For commuters, it means more than a dozen additional trains on the tracks, potentially causing delays for drivers at crossings."

Well, if FEC plans to run trains on an hourly schedule, that would imply 2 additional trains each hour during the peak periods of the day. Add a daily Amtrak LD train to/from Jacksonville and for good measure, Florida funds a twice daily JAX to Miami (Airport / Tri-Rail) train. That has to be a serious increase on traffic on the FEC tracks. Could be a lot of push-back on safety and traffic jam concerns from locals before the FEC starts service or traffic delays after the service starts.

Since the FEC is the railroad with the ROW, they may only do the minimum required to improve the grade crossings for 90 or 110 mph speeds. In the other higher speed projects, the state DOTs are taking the lead, so also being the highway department, they are using the project funds to close or separate some grade crossings or make substantial improvements to others. The FEC may be a private project, but one that is likely to result in FL DOT allocating road funds to build bridges over the FEC tracks.


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## Anderson

Well, I would assume that the Amtrak trains aren't included in the total, and neither is the Florida project. If FEC sticks to one per hour from 5 AM to 7 PM (arrivals 8 AM-10 PM), that would be 14/day _in each direction_. Whether they plan to stick to "every hour on the hour" or vary (adding an additional train or two near the peaks but compensating by having less-frequent service where using those sets creates a gap) is a good question.

...remind me how many frequencies the Surfliner has? The FEC line could start chasing that level of passenger train availability _very_ quickly.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> ...remind me how many frequencies the Surfliner has? The FEC line could start chasing that level of passenger train availability _very_ quickly.


Without double checking the schedules, I think both the Surfliners and Keystones operate at 13-14 round trips on a weekday. I would not expect the FEC to go from zero to 14 daily trains at once, but start with 3-6 per day and then grow as demand warrants.

If the goal is 14 trains a day, I see where the need for 10 trainsets come from. Figure on any given day, 8 trainsets (whether they be fixed consists or not) would in service with 2 sets of equipment out for maintenance, inspection or on standby for 80% availability. With a ~3 hour trip time, most train sets could make 2 round trips each day with quick clean & restock at each destination. Several could make 1.5 round trips for equipment moves for maintenance and to have trains available at each endpoint for the next day.

The 3 hour trip also allows the FEC to make efficient use of rolling stock for revenue. A train set making 2 round trips would be in revenue service with paying passengers onboard for 12-13 hours each day. Better than a once a day 6 hour corridor service trip which uses 2 train sets.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...remind me how many frequencies the Surfliner has? The FEC line could start chasing that level of passenger train availability _very_ quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Without double checking the schedules, I think both the Surfliners and Keystones operate at 13-14 round trips on a weekday. I would not expect the FEC to go from zero to 14 daily trains at once, but start with 3-6 per day and then grow as demand warrants.
> 
> If the goal is 14 trains a day, I see where the need for 10 trainsets come from. Figure on any given day, 8 trainsets (whether they be fixed consists or not) would in service with 2 sets of equipment out for maintenance, inspection or on standby for 80% availability. With a ~3 hour trip time, most train sets could make 2 round trips each day with quick clean & restock at each destination. Several could make 1.5 round trips for equipment moves for maintenance and to have trains available at each endpoint for the next day.
> 
> The 3 hour trip also allows the FEC to make efficient use of rolling stock for revenue. A train set making 2 round trips would be in revenue service with paying passengers onboard for 12-13 hours each day. Better than a once a day 6 hour corridor service trip which uses 2 train sets.
Click to expand...

Fair suggestion and not one that I'll disagree with (on the ramp-up), though I'd actually expect them to begin somewhere in the 5-6 range lest they wind up severely under-serving the corridor. I think a plausible guess would be that they place the order but take delivery over a few years (as they do a ramp-up).


----------



## Paulus

Anderson said:


> Well, I would assume that the Amtrak trains aren't included in the total, and neither is the Florida project. If FEC sticks to one per hour from 5 AM to 7 PM (arrivals 8 AM-10 PM), that would be 14/day _in each direction_. Whether they plan to stick to "every hour on the hour" or vary (adding an additional train or two near the peaks but compensating by having less-frequent service where using those sets creates a gap) is a good question.
> 
> ...remind me how many frequencies the Surfliner has? The FEC line could start chasing that level of passenger train availability _very_ quickly.




23/day.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

22/day for the Surfliner, practically, but the fact that the first run to SLO does not originate in San Diego throws the number off, making it 23 because rather than a SAN-SLO run, it's a LAX-SLO and SAN-LAX, even though they don't connect.


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## Anderson

johnny.menhennet said:


> 22/day for the Surfliner, practically, but the fact that the first run to SLO does not originate in San Diego throws the number off, making it 23 because rather than a SAN-SLO run, it's a LAX-SLO and SAN-LAX, even though they don't connect.



Alright...so at a full run of trains, the FEC service alone has the potential to easily meet (or even beat) this number...and that's _before_ any Amtrak trains get involved. I'd add that if this is successful, even modest service up to JAX plus Amtrak splitting both Silvers at JAX (something that I think will _very_ likely follow once one gets split...if anything, I think you'll see a serious thinning-out of demand south of Orlando/Tampa on the A-line Silvers with FEC service plus an FEC-line option to Miami from points north) could quite plausibly put the FEC right behind NYP-BOS service in terms of frequencies.

Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and _any_ separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.

So with a successful operation on the FEC, you're probably looking at a total in the upper 20s in terms of trains on the low end, and in the upper 30s on the high end.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and _any_ separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.


I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.

Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a 15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.


----------



## Anderson

rrdude said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, let me start by saying that I don't have a problem with FEC having the ROW as long as passenger service is "there to stay" with decent frequencies. In all fairness, this will give CSX a competitor in the central Florida market (something that hasn't really been there since the SAL/ACL merger back in the 60s). Yeah, that's freight...but I think we've agreed several times over that freight is no small part of the reason that the FEC is pursuing this.
> 
> Also, I am going to take a stab that had the Orlampa project gone through, there's a chance that had phase two started up, FEC would have gotten involved, such is their entanglement in FL politics.
> 
> As to the trainsets...10 is what I think most of us figured would be needed a while back. My only qualm is the use of sets instead of cars...it's entirely an operational decision, but I just tend to think that having a bunch of cars that can be reassembled to meet demand shifts and/or not having to pile up mileage/wear and tear on the half-empty trains at the far ends of the schedule.
> 
> So the FEC is going to be in control of any HSR in the state. Honestly, that's not a bad thing. They seem to be a competent company and it's no worse than JR Central running the high-speed trains heading west out of Tokyo. Like I indicated before, I don't know that Amtrak was even going to get the operating contract here.
> 
> What IS important here is that a private company has seen fit to put a billion dollars into a new high-speed operation, presumably without the government chipping in directly. That says something big right there.
> 
> Mind you, I strongly support government involvement in transit plans and so forth...but I've also become sorely disenchanted with the burial-by-paperwork that federal plans recieve. To offer an example, had we been stuck with the federal high speed rail program for the Norfolk line, my understanding is that we'd have been lucky to get that in 20 years (if even then). Instead, the VA-NS initiative has gotten that wrapped up in the space of about three years. The detailed requirements for EISes and so forth to get federal funding (and the fact that the Feds are the 400-pound gorilla in terms of funding, meaning that it's not practical for a local, or even local-state, initiative to go anywhere without their support in most cases because...well, think about the relative burden put on the local tax base if the Feds aren't involved vs. if they are at an 80-20 Fed-Other match) have managed to smother a lot of transit projects, and the lack of programs at higher levels to secure operating subsidies on a longer-term basis have stopped others from even getting a serious proposal.
> 
> So I hope the FEC succeeds, if for no other reason than to humiliate the DOT. Yes, I know that some of this will break bad on Amtrak (which is always stuck under those requirements), but I'm at least hopeful that if a private company can do this well, it will be a much-needed slap in the face of the federal planning process.
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson? Twins sons from another-mutha? That's about the most PERFECT reply / response to the FEC and pax rail / HSR I've seen. Like you were reading my mind. Run for office will ya? Or better yet, run a large, profitable transportation company, and show the FEDS how to do HSR. Oh wait, you'll need political connections, so run for office, FIRST.
Click to expand...

This is only a vaguely-related point, but I'm beginning to think that the answer is to leave federal funding in the mix but to emasculate the DOT, which is where a lot of the trouble on a number of transportation policies come from. Let them work out common railcar standards, sure, but beyond that sort of thing (which is really rather a non-binding "coordination" move), I'd like to see the DOT butt out of dealing with policies. A wonderful example here, honestly, is Miami...the city passed a tax hike and is clearly willing to commit to mass transit investments on their end, but they've been /badly/ stifled by an inability to get federal funding (when, quite frankly, that sort of commitment to a dedicated funding source for construction and operations should count for quite a bit more than it seems to).

Mind you, it's not _just_ the railroad thing driving my opinions on this...some of the automobile standards legislation out there is absolutely inane (the effective ban on Mexibugs comes to mind, even though those cars are, as I understand it, materially no different than the older VW Bugs that were imported to the US en masse), and it's resulted in other "carry-over" stupidity (such as the fact that the DOD has to scrap a lot of military vehicles rather than pulling any weapons or sensitive computer parts off and selling them).

My point is that it's not just transit policy that the DOT (and, to be fair, a good bit of the enabling legislation...this is one place where I do absolutely have to give a good deal of discredit to Congress) has screwed the pooch on.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and _any_ separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.
> 
> Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a 15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.
Click to expand...

I think that sounds reasonable. Honestly, I think the flow will be more or less flat, aside from a "hard spike" on Fridays and a dip on Saturdays. Really, I think more of the traffic along the route is going to be business traffic than a lot of folks think...especially since I suspect this is going to "clear out" quite a bit of redundant airline service where a carrier hits more than one airport in a region (to the extent that it exists in South Florida or Central Florida). Especially if they eventually put in a Cocoa station (something which they seem open to and which might get "defaulted" onto the route once the Amtrak service gets started), even without a train to Jacksonville you're going to get a lot of folks driving to Cocoa and then grabbing the train so as to avoid traffic south of there. I-95 down there is not unlike I-5 south of LAX sometimes...the travel time may post as X, but good luck actually pulling that off outside of the middle of the night.


----------



## afigg

Additional information and details on the plans for the Cocoa to Orlando Airport route and some of the issues that the FEC will have to settle. August 31 article in the Orlando Sentinel titled Final 40 miles a problem for Miami-to-Orlando train builders. The FEC is looking for Orlando International Airport Authority to kick in a lot for the facilities and tracks at the airport. Some excerpts:

Politics appears to a big factor in why the FEC does want to build a station in Cocoa.



> A stop for Cocoa also would be opposed by the Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority, one of the four property owners in talks with All Aboard Florida. The others are the state, the airport and the Mormon Church.
> The expressway authority owns much of the BeachLine Expressway, where the right of way is the most logical place for the train to lay tracks. The state also owns parts of the road.
> 
> A depot in Cocoa could end up costing the expressway money because it could siphon toll-paying motorists off the road and onto the train, said agency director Max Crumit. That likely would be a deal breaker between the authority and the train, he said.
> 
> "It would be a huge competitor," Crumit said.
> 
> Crumit has talked informally with All Aboard Florida officials and said they are seeking land for a "nominal amount," likely in the form of a long-term lease for a few dollars a year. Land is available, he said, south of the toll road.


I think the FEC would want to place the tracks mostly in the median of the toll road because that would save on elevated tracks flying over access and exit ramps.



> OIA is being asked to help pay for a garage and depot for the train that would cost more than $210 million. About 80 percent of that would be for a 3,500-space garage. But who pays for what part of that bill has not been determined.
> The airport also would be responsible for building a mile-long elevated monorail to serve the station at a cost of $181.4 million. Roads and other infrastructure costs of about $78 million would fall to OIA, too.
> 
> Ranch land long owned by the Mormons also could be needed to get the train on its final leg from the BeachLine to the airport. Ranch manager Erik Jacobsen said talks have been minimal so far.


----------



## Anderson

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)


----------



## johnny.menhennet

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and _any_ separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.
> 
> Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a *15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM* departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be nit-picky, but 15 trains would be 6A-8P.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anderson said:


> ...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).
> 
> Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?
> 
> (And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)


I don't think the Mormons are opposed. The article simply states that they are one of the landowners AAF might need land from to build the Cocoa - Orlando section.

I think Cocoa customers are likely to get thrown under (into?) the bus in the short run. AAF wants the South Florida - Orlando traffic moving ASAP. Besides, once the line is built, THEN they could focus on a Cocoa station.

The Beachline is looking out for its own interests, and is one of the downsides when a public works project becomes its own entity. The creature now aspires to be its own keeper. This should be interesting as both AAF and the OOCEA have definate ideas and objectives in the negotiations.


----------



## PRR 60

Anderson said:


> ...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).
> 
> Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?
> 
> (And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)


I'm not sure why a toll road authority wanting to be paid some measure of market value for property would make someone hate highways. The toll authority gets no tax subsidy and its primary source of revenue is tolls. The rail line is being built by a private, for profit corporation. The FEC will not just use the new tracks for the passenger service, but will use the tracks as a freight line to and from Orlando. The FEC has every expectation of making a profit from the new line. Why should they get a $1 per year deal from the toll authority for property central to their needs? Reverse the transaction and say the toll authority needed land from the FEC for a interchange. Would you expect the FEC to give the land away for free?

I don't see the toll authority as a major stumbling block. They will reach a deal after some behind closed doors give and take. Maybe a small chunk of each paid fare and each ton of freight revenue as a toll offset payment?


----------



## MikefromCrete

Anderson said:


> ...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).
> 
> Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?
> 
> (And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)


I don't see that the Mormons are opposed or favor any particular stop. The church is a landowner along the route, that's all. It's the toll road authority that's opposed to losing revenue. FEC doesn't seem interested in a Cocoa stop. So there probably won't be a Cocoa stop, at least not now. If and when a Jacksonville-Miami service develops, then there could be a Cocoa stop. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## Anderson

PRR 60 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).
> 
> Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?
> 
> (And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why a toll road authority wanting to be paid some measure of market value for property would make someone hate highways. The toll authority gets no tax subsidy and its primary source of revenue is tolls. The rail line is being built by a private, for profit corporation. The FEC will not just use the new tracks for the passenger service, but will use the tracks as a freight line to and from Orlando. The FEC has every expectation of making a profit from the new line. Why should they get a $1 per year deal from the toll authority for property central to their needs? Reverse the transaction and say the toll authority needed land from the FEC for a interchange. Would you expect the FEC to give the land away for free?
> 
> I don't see the toll authority as a major stumbling block. They will reach a deal after some behind closed doors give and take. Maybe a small chunk of each paid fare and each ton of freight revenue as a toll offset payment?
Click to expand...

And right there you have the problem...the OOCEA is acting more or less as a private business in spite of more or less being government-owned. Look, if the OOCEA was a genuinely private corporation...well, I'd complain that Florida had gone insane in handing so much stuff over to a non-public entity, but the argument would be stronger. The problem is that, quite simply put, the OOCEA is a state entity. For all intents and purposes (corporate identity notwithstanding), the OOCEA is an arm of the Florida government. Moreover, in the case of the Beeline I would point out that they've had almost half a century of toll collection on the Beeline, and that the train isn't likely to wipe out demand there.

A second angle of this, of course, is that the FEC is taking over a project that the state dumped because of cost concerns (well, at least in theory...yes, I know the picture is far more tangled, but the state still dumped it). That _also_ weighs in against the OOCEA getting involved...the state intended to use the land for a passenger rail project that someone else is taking over. Yes, there will be freight service as well...but again, I see _that _as a public good as well since it breaks the CSX monopoly in central FL and also potentially moves trucks off of the highways.

What do I think would be fair? A nominal cost lease, but with a covenant requiring:

1) The FEC to operate the passenger service as long as they hold the lease; and

2) A supplementary covenant saying that if they _do_ somehow ditch the service (say, in bankruptcy), the state or its designee has the right to operate said service and is entitled to rights over _anything_ and _everything_ else on the line.

I say this because even though the FEC is operating the passenger service on a for-profit basis, I still see its operation as creating net good for the public.


----------



## jis

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".


I actually haven't been following that aspect (or indeed heard of it). With that said, this is why I'm looking at this from a perspective of "tie the land lease to the passenger trains". Under such a deal, fail to run the passenger trains (or, frankly, try to pull an Espee with them...I'd call that "bad faith") and lose the line.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".


I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

However, I don't see how the FECI can make much money from land deals on the land they currently own if they don't follow through with a passenger service. If FECI's real objective is to get 40 miles of ROW and tracks from Cocoa to Orlando for freight business and the plans for passenger service are nothing more than a smoke screen, unless the staffs and legal departments at Florida DOT and the toll road authority are totally incompetent, they will insert requirements into the ROW lease agreements for running passenger service over those tracks for X years or the ROW reverts back to the state. Of course, there could be a back room political deal at the top with the real goal of giving the ROW to FECI regardless of whether passenger service runs on it. But I doubt it. This is a passenger corridor service that can make a real profit.

Changing subjects a bit, a question occurred to me: because FECI will be building new stations, they will have to comply with the US DOT rules for level boarding platforms. Ok, so will the FECI go with high level platforms or 15" ATR platforms? Will they build pullover tracks at each station so they can maintain full freight clearance while installing 15" or 48" ATR platforms?


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Changing subjects a bit, a question occurred to me: because FECI will be building new stations, they will have to comply with the US DOT rules for level boarding platforms. Ok, so will the FECI go with high level platforms or 15" ATR platforms? Will they build pullover tracks at each station so they can maintain full freight clearance while installing 15" or 48" ATR platforms?


I expect that the passenger stations will have run-through tracks of some kind to allow either freight running if they have an extended passenger stop and/or to allow a potential skipped stop. As to platforms, I'm guessing 48" may win the day since they don't seem to be going with bilevels.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).
Click to expand...

Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.
Click to expand...

Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> 1346894024[/url]' post='392083']
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1346892468[/url]' post='392072']
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1346886161[/url]' post='392037']
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1346728167[/url]' post='391523']Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm from Florida. Honestly I have not seen much skepticism here. If anything, the negative posts on logs and media websites have been from radical tea party anti-government types. The usual comment is "why are we spending tax dollars on a train". They really don't understand this is a privately financed project. I'm taking a neutral position. So far, this project appears to be real. Here in Florida, the Orlando and Miami media seem to support it. As the previous poster said "incredible amount of skepticism" "by many" in florida. I really must vigorously disagree with his statement. I just do not see it. Is he from Florida or looking on from afar?


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I'm from Florida. Honestly I have not seen much skepticism here. If anything, the negative posts on logs and media websites have been from radical tea party anti-government types. The usual comment is "why are we spending tax dollars on a train". They really don't understand this is a privately financed project. I'm taking a neutral position. So far, this project appears to be real. Here in Florida, the Orlando and Miami media seem to support it. As the previous poster said "incredible amount of skepticism" "by many" in florida. I really must vigorously disagree with his statement. I just do not see it. Is he from Florida or looking on from afar?
Click to expand...

Brian,

First and foremost, welcome aboard AU.

As to your point, I've even seen _support_ from some Tea Party types for this because of its private sector nature, which while a bit surprising in some regards...let's just say that I think they're seeing something that fulfills a Randian fantasy of theirs.* Still, I can see where (between the general history of passenger rail over the last 40-50 years, the big Orlampa line kerfluffle, and the Amtrak FEC service plans) a casual observer could get a bit too much of their daily exercise leaping to conclusions.

*Explanation: The first section of _Atlas Shrugged_ centers around a private company building a high-speed railroad line, and I suspect there are some more libertarian types that would see this as the living embodiment of that in some way.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and here is the shocker. These hi-level cars are Ex-ATSF and Amtrak Hi-levels. Not sure if this is what they will use, but 2014 is two years away still and things can change. Can't rule out they may purchase used cars.

http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf


----------



## pennyk

THE CJ said:


> Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and new bi-level cars.
> 
> http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf


Thanks for posting. I had not seen it and it looks pretty nice. I cannot wait to ride the train (even though I really do not want to travel to South Florida - but I will).


----------



## rrdude

Damn, that's impressive! I see a lot of designs that harken back to different configs from different RR's. Lunch-Counter seating, seats facing each other with tables, lower level lounge.

These folks have done their homework!


----------



## Caesar La Rock

rrdude said:


> Damn, that's impressive! I see a lot of designs that harken back to different configs from different RR's. Lunch-Counter seating, seats facing each other with tables, lower level lounge.
> 
> These folks have done their homework!


The train also has a seating capacity of 398 passengers. So we can't rule out they will use these hi-levels. This is site this is on.

http://ccrail.com/

http://ccrail.com/hi-level-trains/


----------



## MattW

Wow, that does look impressive. I also really like the colors they've chosen!


----------



## Anderson

Oh God, please, please, please let this be so. Those designs are _beautiful_...and I think this is the first time I've ever had such a reaction to concept art. The fact that AAF is seriously considering "proper" dining service using a "real" kitchen rather than some food cart option (or a glorified microwave) is also _very_ encouraging.

One thing to think about: If they follow through with this and it works, this should take a _lot_ of pressure off of Amtrak on the OBS front.

Edit: Edit: I looked over the reports some more...glancing at the names at the bottom:

-Salci Consult...would that be Larry Salci, of Colorado Railcar?

-Likewise, I'm not sure who the "RailPlan" folks are. Any insights, folks?


----------



## mfastx

Very nice, I like!

I also love the level platform boarding, that would be a great feature (and an improvement over most Amtrak LD trains).


----------



## afigg

mfastx said:


> Very nice, I like!
> 
> I also love the level platform boarding, that would be a great feature (and an improvement over most Amtrak LD trains).


Level boarding is a US DOT mandated requirement for ADA compliance for new stations and platforms, so All Aboard Florida has to provide that with new stations at every stop. Although a mini level boarding platform would be acceptable. Since these would be bi-level trains, that should mean 15" platforms, presumably on pull-over tracks to maintain full clearance for freight trains.


----------



## MattW

But I believe the rules still allow for 8" above top of rail platforms where there is significant freight traffic and where it would be infeasible to construct a pull-out. But 8 to 15 inches (7 inches) is still a lot better than 8 to 48 inches for Amfleet/Viewliner/Horizon equipment.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I just came across an interesting document on the Surface Transportation Board (STB) website. It is a petition by AAF to dismiss an earlier petition for exemption from STB oversight. Basically AAF is saying it is an intrastate passenger line, and not involved with interstate commerce. Therefore it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the STB. Of note, AAF has no plans to connect with Amtrak (either directly or with through ticketing). Also, this step is necessary as AAF claims in order to begin the process of obtaining financing it must get past this decision. Here is the link: http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/69bb9eca67c5047185257a920062707f/$FILE/233128.pdf


----------



## jis

Interesting. So they are promising not to use the AAF track for any interstate freight movement either. That puts a kibosh on the theory that at some point they'd use this line and extension to gain access to Tampa for their freight service.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brian_tampa said:


> I just came across an interesting document on the Surface Transportation Board (STB) website. It is a petition by AAF to dismiss an earlier petition for exemption from STB oversight. Basically AAF is saying it is an intrastate passenger line, and not involved with interstate commerce. Therefore it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the STB. Of note, AAF has no plans to connect with Amtrak (either directly or with through ticketing). Also, this step is necessary as AAF claims in order to begin the process of obtaining financing it must get past this decision. Here is the link: http://www.stb.dot.g...FILE/233128.pdf


That probably kills any theory about Amtrak operating the service too.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Interesting. So they are promising not to use the AAF track for any interstate freight movement either. That puts a kibosh on the theory that at some point they'd use this line and extension to gain access to Tampa for their freight service.


No, FECR can still do that with new freight service on new tracks. In section I on page 4, last paragraph of the section, it says AAF is contemplating entering an operating agreement with FECR to allow AAF to use FECR existing tracks and for FECR to use all newly constructed AAF tracks. It seems like a bit of legalize here, but AAF-O (operations) and AAF-S (stations) are LLC corporate entities separate from the FECR. This would in fact allow the FECR (freight traffic) to utilize all new trackage built (whether alongside the existing FECR route or the new route to Orlando or Tampa), after FECR gets approval from the STB to operate over the new trackage. Remember AAF-O and AAF-S are separate corporations from FECR. This petition only affects the AAF-O and AAF-S companies, not the FECR.


----------



## Anderson

These are all, I presume, subsidiaries of FECI? It seems that way...and that's an interesting situation (though it makes sense since it should insulate FECR from any AAF-related headaches).

Also, as far as the freight stuff goes, FECR doesn't go outside of Florida. Granted, via a trackage deal with NS there's interstate access through an interchange at JAX...but a good portion of its operations are FL-specific. I have to wonder what sorts of oversight STB permission to operate freight on the AAF lines will trigger.


----------



## jis

It still seems somewhat disingenuous to me that one gets to operate interstate freight over tracks that are not under STB jurisdiction. Should be interesting to see if STB buys it.


----------



## Anderson

Just wondering, but does the STB have jurisdiction over intrastate light rail lines and the like?


----------



## Paulus

THE CJ said:


> Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and here is the shocker. These hi-level cars are Ex-ATSF and Amtrak Hi-levels. Not sure if this is what they will use, but 2014 is two years away still and things can change. Can't rule out they may purchase used cars.
> 
> http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf


That may have been a business presentation, but I don't believe that's what they'll be getting. When they addressed the FECRS convention, they mentioned that they were in talks with two foreign companies with plants in the US for new rolling stock, which will determine when they start service (about 26 minutes in).



Anderson said:


> Just wondering, but does the STB have jurisdiction over intrastate light rail lines and the like?



No, though MAP-21 was supposed to result in giving them or someone else responsibility for equipment "safety" regs after the Washington Metro crash. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, all light rail is currently regulated by the individual states.


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering, but does the STB have jurisdiction over intrastate light rail lines and the like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, though MAP-21 was supposed to result in giving them or someone else responsibility for equipment "safety" regs after the Washington Metro crash. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, all light rail is currently regulated by the individual states.
Click to expand...

Curiously, even light rail that crosses state boundaries!

FTA has been given the charge and they are in the process of rule-making in the area of safety.


----------



## Brian_tampa

More info thanks to a quick search of the STB website. Found the other petition from AAF for exemption from STB oversight. A few surprises in the document: AAF *is* in talks with the FRA to apply for a RRIF loan to cover some, but not all of the construction costs. It mentions 16-19 daily round trip trains. Trains will be approximately 900 feet long. Maybe if someone knows the lengths of train cars and loco's of the different builders one can then deduce what trainsets they are looking at! Also maximum speed is 110mph on track north of W Palm Beach. Here is the link. http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/5c0f6ab35bc16d8d85257a9200626a97/$FILE/233127.pdf


----------



## Paulus

Brian_tampa said:


> More info thanks to a quick search of the STB website. Found the other petition from AAF for exemption from STB oversight. A few surprises in the document: AAF *is* in talks with the FRA to apply for a RRIF loan to cover some, but not all of the construction costs. It mentions 16-19 daily round trip trains. Trains will be approximately 900 feet long. Maybe if someone knows the lengths of train cars and loco's of the different builders one can then deduce what trainsets they are looking at! Also maximum speed is 110mph on track north of W Palm Beach. Here is the link. http://www.stb.dot.g...FILE/233127.pdf


9-10 car train, 85 feet's been the standard passenger railcar length since before World War II I think.

Interesting to see that they will not be offering through ticketing with Amtrak.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> More info thanks to a quick search of the STB website. Found the other petition from AAF for exemption from STB oversight. A few surprises in the document: AAF *is* in talks with the FRA to apply for a RRIF loan to cover some, but not all of the construction costs. It mentions 16-19 daily round trip trains. Trains will be approximately 900 feet long. Maybe if someone knows the lengths of train cars and loco's of the different builders one can then deduce what trainsets they are looking at! Also maximum speed is 110mph on track north of W Palm Beach. Here is the link. http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/5c0f6ab35bc16d8d85257a9200626a97/$FILE/233127.pdf


900 feet is basically 10 cars + a loco or 9 cars and two locos. Most NJT MLV sets are about 900' long (10cars + 1 ALP-46). Standard car length in the US is 85'. Only non-standard length cars in US are the Talgo set cars which are much shorter but are articulated.

BTW, falling under STB jurisdiction is an entirely different thing from falling under FRA jurisdiction. I don;t see them managing to not fall under FRA jurisdiction. I don't believe they are even contemplating not working with FRA, as evidenced above. So I don't see them managing to get around Platform standards issues. STB just handles rate setting and mergers, etc. I think they are just trying to avoid STB's regulatory powers over new line construction, and that seems to make sense.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> More info thanks to a quick search of the STB website. Found the other petition from AAF for exemption from STB oversight. A few surprises in the document: AAF *is* in talks with the FRA to apply for a RRIF loan to cover some, but not all of the construction costs. It mentions 16-19 daily round trip trains. Trains will be approximately 900 feet long. Maybe if someone knows the lengths of train cars and loco's of the different builders one can then deduce what trainsets they are looking at! Also maximum speed is 110mph on track north of W Palm Beach. Here is the link. http://www.stb.dot.g...FILE/233127.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 900 feet is basically 10 cars + a loco or 9 cars and two locos. Most NJT MLV sets are about 900' long (10cars + 1 ALP-46). Standard car length in the US is 85'. Only non-standard length cars in US are the Talgo set cars which are much shorter but are articulated.
> 
> BTW, falling under STB jurisdiction is an entirely different thing from falling under FRA jurisdiction. I don;t see them managing to not fall under FRA jurisdiction. I don't believe they are even contemplating not working with FRA, as evidenced above. So I don't see them managing to get around Platform standards issues. STB just handles rate setting and mergers, etc. I think they are just trying to avoid STB's regulatory powers over new line construction, and that seems to make sense.
Click to expand...


I agree, AAF is trying to get away from going through STB oversight and review. I thought I read somewhere (maybe when they announced they were going forward back in August?) where the AAF trains would be 7 cars and 2 locomotives (one on each end). AAF (like all US railroads) will be required to follow FRA rules. I find it interesting however, that they are allowing themselves the future possibility of having FECR run freight trains on the new track though. I wonder what amount of money they are planning to ask for with the RRIF loan application?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Another item in the STB petition, AAF says that they will not be connected to any other railroad other than FECR. I wonder what this means for the route into the Orlando airport? I am aware of the Orlando Utilities Comission (OUC) railroad that CSX operates on that runs around the south and east sides of OIA. Could one assume that this means that AAF will not be physically connected to the OUC branch line at all? I read that the Sunrail project is looking at using these same tracks to the west and south of OIA to also get to the airport.


----------



## Anderson

Thinking about the cars, it's entirely possible that AAF solicited a presentation from the Hi-Level folks to hold up next to the European builders. Even though maintenance would be a pain on the Hi-Levels, it's possible that were the Hi-Levels to only cost, say, $1 million apiece (or less), or even to be picked up on a medium-term lease, they might make sense to start things off with even with expensive maintenance if the alternative was a set of $15+ million trainsets.

Likewise, with a lease deal, AAF could order their trainsets, lease these to get their operation going, and use these until the trainsets actually get delivered. I don't know what the delivery timeline would be, but I can believe them being able to get the tracks in place by 2014 but the trainset acquisition process taking longer to get full delivery of a set of sets. The bottom line is that I wouldn't be surprised if they solicited this offer alongside planning an equipment order from someone overseas and/or at least looked at this as another option.

Shifting gears slightly, the through ticketing decision might be a temporary move (to dodge STB jurisdiction for as long as possible). It's also possible that if they go forward with expanding the operations, that JAX-MIA might end up as a nominally separate entity (they haven't had any problems dividing up their corporate persona yet, so another one, AAF-North, could happen that _would_ offer through-ticketing but might have enough separation from the other entities to keep them safe from STB oversight) with through ticketing (since that would likely involve an "actual" interchange with Amtrak whereas both MIA and ORL are set to be clunky cross-town connections that would discourage a through trip for anyone but a railfan, since the southern FL cities are almost all _also_ covered by Amtrak at a separate station at the present time).

On the 16-19 daily round trips, that would seem to imply the following (if I had to guess):

5 AM-9 PM hourly departures M-F, with an additional departure either at the half hour (7:30 AM and 5:30 PM would be good candidates) or at a "chaser" time (i.e. 7:05/7:10 and 5:05/5:10) each way during peak times. On weekends, cut back the 5 AM departure and the extra peak times and keep most of the rest of the service running (considering the tourist-heavy nature of things)...which would allow for things like a day-trip to Miami (or Orlando, especially if the line eventually gets extended out to the Disney side of town).


----------



## Nathanael

Brian_tampa said:


> I just came across an interesting document on the Surface Transportation Board (STB) website. It is a petition by AAF to dismiss an earlier petition for exemption from STB oversight. Basically AAF is saying it is an intrastate passenger line, and not involved with interstate commerce. Therefore it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the STB. Of note, AAF has no plans to connect with Amtrak (either directly or with through ticketing). Also, this step is necessary as AAF claims in order to begin the process of obtaining financing it must get past this decision. Here is the link: http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/69bb9eca67c5047185257a920062707f/$FILE/233128.pdf


This claim will probably fail utterly, unless the STB feels generous. The STB has been pretty defensive about its powers. I guess AAF will have to either find financing some other way, or give up.


----------



## Nathanael

I think the attempt to escape STB jurisdiction is completely bogus and doesn't stand a chance.

....But if AAF simply applies for the certificate from the STB authorizing the construction, it would undoubtedly get the certificate. Probably expedited. The STB is *required* by statute to issue the certificate unless there is some compelling reason not to.

I wonder why AAF is trying to escape STB jurisdiction. I doubt they'll get away with it.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering, but does the STB have jurisdiction over intrastate light rail lines and the like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, though MAP-21 was supposed to result in giving them or someone else responsibility for equipment "safety" regs after the Washington Metro crash. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, all light rail is currently regulated by the individual states.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Curiously, even light rail that crosses state boundaries!
> 
> FTA has been given the charge and they are in the process of rule-making in the area of safety.
Click to expand...

It has to do with whether the system is "connected to the general system of railroad transportation". If you maintain an isolated system (such as the vast majority of metro and light rail systems), the STB doesn't bother you. Rarely-used, gated-and-locked switching tracks for delivery of new railroad equipment doesn't affect this. But if you're connected to one of the national railroads, so that freight traffic from the national system could potentially be dispatchd onto your line, the STB does regulate you. (So the RiverLine and Newark City Subway, which both interact with freight lines on a regular basis, did have to deal with the STB. I forget exactly what the outcome of those cases was; they both got unique, one-off rules.)


----------



## jis

Nathanael said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just came across an interesting document on the Surface Transportation Board (STB) website. It is a petition by AAF to dismiss an earlier petition for exemption from STB oversight. Basically AAF is saying it is an intrastate passenger line, and not involved with interstate commerce. Therefore it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the STB. Of note, AAF has no plans to connect with Amtrak (either directly or with through ticketing). Also, this step is necessary as AAF claims in order to begin the process of obtaining financing it must get past this decision. Here is the link: http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/69bb9eca67c5047185257a920062707f/$FILE/233128.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> This claim will probably fail utterly, unless the STB feels generous. The STB has been pretty defensive about its powers. I guess AAF will have to either find financing some other way, or give up.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why they are doing what they are doing. Is it just to try to avoid a separate STB Environmental Assessment? But historically STB has worked with FRA to piggyback on FRA's NEPA work, which apparently AAF is very close to concluding.I don;t see why STB would deny their petition for STB permission anyway. Clearly there are some nuances of this that at least I don't understand.

On the business about no through ticketing with Amtrak or anyone else, why is that a good thing for the public puzzles me too.


----------



## Anderson

At least for the moment...who would they through ticket with? I can't see anyone taking FEC partway up the coast and then switching to Amtrak (assuming that project happens) or vice-versa, and a through-ticket option from Orlando to Tampa would be clunky. Only a switch at Orlando makes any sense, and there's just no connection between the airport and the present Amtrak station, nor one planned in the next few years.

Edit: I'm going to play a hunch here. FEC is trying to pull out of STB jurisdiction now so as to avoid having to deal with them them over the Tampa extension (which will likely be a more complicated project). This makes a lot more sense, IMHO...it's a preemptive move. After all, it'll be pretty hard for the STB to get involved with the project

There's one other thought that comes to mind: How much authority would the STB have with respect to setting fares and dictating service levels? There's a bad corporate history there (when the FEC was trying to dump passenger trains back in the 60s), and I don't think they want to risk having their hands tied on fares (or risk a nasty fight over a train-off on a given frequency). I'm asking on this front because I don't know...I know that a lot of the ICC's authority was gutted before it was transferred to the STB, but I don't know what the rules are regarding passenger rail service.


----------



## jis

Another reason to avoid STB is to be able to abandon service more expeditiously should such become necessary.


----------



## bretton88

And here is one option for AAF rolling stock. The proposal is to remodel the old High Levels. AAF Rolling Stock

The website is a little vague. But apparently the company, Corridor Capital owns 50 of these high levels and is proposing to rehab them for use on the FEC. Basically making these more modern California Cars with the old shells. I can see this happening, as it would probably be cheaper than buying new, and they could get them in time for start of service. The other option of tacking it onto the current corridor order is probably unfeasible as they probably wouldn't get trains in time for start of service.


----------



## Anderson

That proposal has been discussed above; my best guess is that it was a "one of many options" presentation that AAF is considering.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> That proposal has been discussed above; my best guess is that it was a "one of many options" presentation that AAF is considering.


Yup. It will depend to quite an extent on what is the metal fatigue situation in those car frames, and how much re-trucking or rehabbing their existing truck for 110mph will cost.

In the long run AAF will be better off with brand new purpose built cars. Since it is an isolated operation they would be better off buying Tier III off the shelf equipment from Europe. Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the entire length of the train at both levels, that could be really cool!


----------



## rrdude

My two-cents on the "No thru ticketing" issue. It's just to distance themselves as much as possible from Amtrak, pre-start up. Once they are running, they will eventually offer thru ticketing. Then there is no reason not to. It also keeps everything EASIER right now. Want a ticket? Go online. Just like Megabus or Bolt.

What they should really be working on is thru-ticketing with the airlines that serve Orlando and Miami. That's were a lot of traffic might be generated.

Herb / Colleen, are you listening? You two could do this in Texas! "SouthWest Expre3ss" the rail feeder for Southwest Airlines. High-speed rail serving the Texas Triangle.


----------



## CHamilton

jis said:


> Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!


I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...


----------



## Brian_tampa

AAF has been promising a startup date of no later than Jan 1st 2015. Here is a recent meeting minutes document from the Orlando Airport regarding their south airport automated people mover (APM) complex project. The project involves constructing an APM to the existing north terminal, a new hotel, a 3500 car parking garage, bus/taxi dropoff areas, and (I believe) car rental facilities. The APM complex will also be where any rail stations are to be built. This meeting was to discuss the RFP for the selection of a 'prime design consultant' for this project. In the Q and A part of the minutes of the meeting document the following was asked:

_Question 47: Regarding WS100 (Prime Designer): The anticipated project Schedule identifies a design start of February 13, 2013, and a project operational date of May 2015. A two year timeframe for completing design, permitting and construction is extremely aggressive. Is the two year timeframe set, or is there flexibility in the schedule?_

_Answer 47: These are the proposed dates._

It looks like OIA is serious about building this long talked about complex. I would think that the AAF proposal helped to kick start the schedule.

So it appears that there will be a lag time of at least 5 months between when AAF is operational and when the new complex is ready at OIA. I wonder how AAF will get passengers from what will be a pretty big construction site to the main terminal? Or will AAF have to delay the start of services until the APM is ready?

Here is the link to the document: http://orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/W-S100-101_Presubmittal_Minutes.pdf


----------



## Brian_tampa

CHamilton said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...
Click to expand...

At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.


----------



## jis

Yeah IMHO I doubt that they will go with spiffied up Hi-Level cars no matter how much that will make railfans drool,  unless of course they have a rather short horizon and do not believe that they will succeed in the long run. Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?


----------



## Trogdor

rrdude said:


> Herb / Colleen, are you listening? You two could do this in Texas! "SouthWest Expre3ss" the rail feeder for Southwest Airlines. High-speed rail serving the Texas Triangle.


I don't think Herb or Colleen have much to say about anything, since they're no longer in charge at Southwest Airlines.

The guy you need to talk to is Gary Kelly, who is busy trying to integrate AirTran while maintaining a reservations system that is woefully inadequate for the task.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brian_tampa said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.
Click to expand...

Also on the AAF website (under the FAQ section) it is clear what their plans are:

_*What kind of train will it be? Have you selected the equipment?*_

_No train operator or rolling stock has been selected yet. __All Aboard Florida__ will select modern equipment that is compliant with the Federal Railroad Administration, is certified to operate at higher sustained speeds, and utilizes clean-diesel engines that meet stringent Tier 3 federal emission standards._

I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Brian_tampa said:


> I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?


It is interesting, but it is tough to know exactly what they mean, especially if they either don't know yet themselves, are leaving themselves some 'wiggle room', are obtuse because of ongoing negotiations, or a combination of 'all of the above'.

It is also interesting that Talgo builds trainsets, cars, and is



> ...proud to be a pioneer company in providing complete maintenance solutions [including OBTs and cleaning] to railway operators all over the world since the 1950s.(from Talgo America's website HERE)


HERE is a link to Talgo N.A.'s webpage of services provided in the Northwest.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talgo has these nice double decker cars with corridors running the tnire length of thet rain at both levels, that could be really cool!
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Talgo would give them a nice deal on some unused cars from Wisconsin...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At the FECRS convention last month, the AAF representative that gave a presentation mentioned something about the lead time for obtaining 10 train sets would be 24-30 months from date of order. The last I heard was that the order would be placed by the end of 2012. I think he also mentioned 7 passenger cars in each set = 70 cars total with 20 power units (front and rear). IMHO I think AAF will go with Talgo or Siemens (or another european manufacturer). That would make a statement to showcase their project.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Also on the AAF website (under the FAQ section) it is clear what their plans are:
> 
> _*What kind of train will it be? Have you selected the equipment?*_
> 
> _No train operator or rolling stock has been selected yet. __All Aboard Florida__ will select modern equipment that is compliant with the Federal Railroad Administration, is certified to operate at higher sustained speeds, and utilizes clean-diesel engines that meet stringent Tier 3 federal emission standards._
> 
> I find it interesting they say "no train operator..." implying that AAF is not necessarily going to be the organization operating the trains. Maybe AAF is in negotiations to combine the purchase of train sets with selecting an operator? Does anyone know what manufacturer would be able to offer these services?
Click to expand...

Bombardier just got the operating contract for part of MARC's operations, ironically, the part that does not operate at 125mph. So they could possibly do equipment and operation both. I suppose Talgo could too, though they don't currently have an operating contract in the US.


----------



## AlanB

jis said:


> Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?


So that you can reenact the Amtrak plan? :unsure:

:lol: :lol:


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Yeah IMHO I doubt that they will go with spiffied up Hi-Level cars no matter how much that will make railfans drool,  unless of course they have a rather short horizon and do not believe that they will succeed in the long run. Why burden yourself with yet another equipment acquisition exercise within ten years, when you can start with a clean slate and go 25 years?


Oh, I can give you three great reasons:

1) Initial cost. New cars seem to run somewhere in the $2-3 million range, depending on a host of factors. That's going to be $14-21 million for a seven-car set, probably close to the middle of the range. Old cars can probably be had for $1 million apiece or less.

2) Depreciation schedules. It's quite possible that, given their state, the old cars could be put on an accelerated depreciation schedule (say, 10-15 years instead of 30-40 years).

3) Acquisition times. You could probably get the Hi-Levels on the road in 12-18 months vs. the 24-30 (if not more) that a new set seems likely to take.

Not that any of these would override the hassles of the older equipment, but they all seem valid reasons to look at. I'd also note that even if you think your operation is a "sure thing", it might well make sense to use the older sets, figure out what demand /really/ looks like (maybe you actually need a few sets that are longer than you thought to deal with peak-hour demand, for example), and then tailor your order. Likewise, waiting a few years on the "main" order would allow them to potentially get ten sets for MIA-ORL plus whatever would be needed for an extension to Tampa (and/or Jacksonville) in the same order, potentially avoiding extra costs associated with smaller orders.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.


----------



## rrdude

Disagree, you pump enuff money into older equipment, it will come out looking like the Space Shuttle. (Hmmm, prolly a bad ref here, since they are all in _museums_ now) anyway, you get my point.

The dome-diners and kitchen cars that we leased from Transcisco Tours for our dinner train were "Heritage Equipment", but looked and ran probably *much better* than the day they were outshopped from their builder.

Take a shell, rewire it, add new truck bodies, trucks, wheels, brakes, all the mechanicals, modern interior, AC, and VOILA! You have "new" or "modern" equipment.

I agree with JIS, I'd _love to see_ the bilevels he mentioned, with passage thru the cars on both levels. Increase capacity, EZ loading, no need to interchange with other equipment, sounds like a winner to me.


----------



## Anderson

The Davy Crockett said:


> AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.


Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modern_ized_ equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modern_ized_ equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."
Click to expand...

The fact that they say basically 2 to 3 years to acquire equipment suggest that they are setting their goals higher than just patching up some existing equipment. That's just my guess.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree with you on this. However, there's one other point I'd make: At this stage in the process, I just don't see AAF saying "We're going to use the best equipment of the 1950s!" in a pitch, even if it's true. It's probably easier to say they'll get modern equipment and then say "...er...modern_ized_ equipment. This was the best offer we found to start up."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that they say basically 2 to 3 years to acquire equipment suggest that they are setting their goals higher than just patching up some existing equipment. That's just my guess.
Click to expand...

I will agree with you. Also add in their stated goals of attracting tourists (which here in Florida means alot of international visitors from Europe) and business travelers and one could see why they would want to present modern looking (and state of the art) trains to their customers. I might be wrong, but my feeling is that AAF wants to start with alot of class and style, not just putting the cheapest and quickest equipment available out on the track. Remember we are talking Miami/S Florida here... land of people who care more about looks and appearance than most anything else! j/k LOL

Their whole idea is to move passengers *and* develop the land and buildings to maximize their investment. This will be a first class operation IMO, as they are spending considerable effort on stations and presentation from what I have read and seen.


----------



## Anderson

I feel compelled to be flip for a moment, but "new" and "good looking" not only aren't synonymous, but they're in an annoying habit of being antonyms. Likewise...well, let's just say that I've got a tainted opinion of _anything_ using LRC technology.


----------



## Nathanael

rrdude said:


> Take a shell, rewire it, add new truck bodies, trucks, wheels, brakes, all the mechanicals, modern interior, AC, and VOILA! You have "new" or "modern" equipment.


While it's true that the shells last for a very long time, a lot of the cost is in the trucks, truck bodies, brakes, wheels, mechanicals, and other underfloor equipment. I doubt it's actually worth getting old railcars if you have to replace all of that. Every time I've seen "old" cars purchased for an operation (other than a museum operation) they're complete with old (but working) trucks.

I suppose if there were a very large collection of shells in good condition it might make sense, but otherwise it's probably just cheaper to buy new cars.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> Another reason to avoid STB is to be able to abandon service more expeditiously should such become necessary.


Ohhhhh, it could be this.

The STB has no power over passenger fares. But they still have the power to prevent discontinuation of service.

Anyway, the FEC has made *two* requests:

(1) for the STB to disclaim jurisdiction entirely. I think there's no chance this will be approved.

(2) in the alternative, for the STB to agree that the construction of the line is exempt from the legal requirement of prior approval for construction of a new railroad line. There is a chance that this will be approved, but I doubt it.

The third option is that the STB can issue approval (a certificate stating that the construction of the line is in the public interest) after a short public comment period. I'm no expert on the law, but it appears to me that this approval does not require a full Environmental Impact Statement, even though it's a federal action, because (1) it is narrowly tailored to answering the question of whether the line is in the public interest, and does not exempt the line from any other legal requirements (such as the wetlands laws), and (2) the law now contains a specific statement that construction of rail lines is considered to be in the public interest by default unless proven otherwise. If someone has precedent to the contrary it would be interesting. It looks to me, though I might be wrong, as if the STB can also issue its certificate without a comment period if it determines that expedited construction is necessary....

So there's something funny about the request. It seems like the STB approval process over construction of new railway lines is practically pro forma and doesn't cause a problem, so why is FEC asking to be exempt?


----------



## CHamilton

Downtown Miami On Track For Expanded Commuter Rail Service By 2014



> A half-century after the last passenger trains pulled into Downtown Miami, plans to return rail transport to South Florida's urban corridors are moving at breakneck pace.
> 
> At least 24,000 riders would use a proposed new commuter rail line between Jupiter and Downtown Miami, reports Miami Today.
> 
> The line lies along Florida East Coast Railway's US 1 corridor tracks, which the company plans to use for its upcoming Miami-to-Orlando All Aboard Florida rail service.
> 
> Longtime South Florida commuter service Tri-Rail, which currently makes its southernmost stop near Hialeah, is hoping to utilize FEC's Downtown track for a new eastern "Blue Line," pending municipal cooperation toward station development.
> 
> Both companies have expressed mutual willingness to share the FEC tracks. All Aboard Florida would service significantly fewer stations along the corridor than Tri-Rail, which plans to add 12 new stops between Fort Lauderdale and Miami for Blue Line service:


----------



## Brian_tampa

An update to the Orlando airport station plans. In a pre-submittal presentation for project consultants I noticed that the slides show the AAF tracks coming into the new station from the north. I believe you can see this on pages 32-34 of the document. This means that AAF won't be using the OUC railroad ROW for accessing the airport from the east and south. This has to be the latest updated (for AAF) version of the original document most likely developed for the HSR project from 2010. I say this because that proposal had the trains coming into the station from the south. Here is the link to the PDF file:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/W-S100-101_Presubmittal_Presentation.pdf

By the way, the station as imagined here looks pretty nice!


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Looks great! Seems like the tracks will likely head south from the Rt. 528 corridor. So no Morman Church lands in the mix now?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Arrival from the north would allow for expansion to Disney and Tampa. Glad they are thinking ahead!

I believe this is what the FHSR project proposed as well.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Just saw on the AAF website today, not sure how long this link has been up. Must have been posted today as the document is dated Oct 31st. Here is the Environmental Assessment document (for the Miami to WPB section only) that will support their application for FRA funding (RRIF program) as noted in their STB filing earlier. LOTS of good details included with it....

http://www.allaboard...PB_to_Miami.pdf


----------



## Anderson

The downtown Miami station is probably the most interesting part of the operation. Mind you, four tracks seems like it might be one or two shy of a full order if they do a commuter line as well, but I'm _loving_ the elevated station idea.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brian_tampa said:


> Just saw on the AAF website today, not sure how long this link has been up. Must have been posted today as the document is dated Oct 31st. Here is the Environmental Assessment document (for the Miami to WPB section only) that will support their application for FRA funding (RRIF program) as noted in their STB filing earlier. LOTS of good details included with it....
> 
> http://www.allaboard...PB_to_Miami.pdf


Sweet find!

There is also an appendix located on the bottom right of their homepage. I had some trouble opening it up, but I was able to view it after right clicking and saving it to my computer. Probably the coolest part is the track chart between WPB and Miami that starts on page 116. Amtrak already released one for Jacksonville to WPB. We now have a full track chart of the FEC!

I also find it interesting that the WPB and Fort Lauderdale stations (Miami is a completely different beast itself) will be two stories with a waiting room above the tracks. This is to prevent pedestrians from crossing live tracks. They also propose a retail shop. An FEC gift shop? 

On page 288 (Page 2 of Appendix I) has daily boardings at AAF stations in 2030 (excluding Orlando).

West Palm Beach- 1,699

Fort Lauderdale- 953

Miami- 2,477

By my math that comes out to just under 1.9 million a year, and this is excluding ridership at the Orlando station.


----------



## Brian_tampa

News from today in West Palm Beach, AAF has purchased the site of their preferred station location in downtown WPB. Here is the link to the story via Palm Beach Post: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/fec-buys-land-for-west-palm-train-station/nS42g/

So for 2.5 million spent on land in WPB, I do believe that AAF is real now! also read on the AAF Facebook page that train selection will be announced at end of the year. great news and am looking forward to more coming out in the near future!


----------



## Anderson

This is going amazingly quickly compared to _anything_ I've seen in the last few years. The only project that even comes _close_ is the Norfolk extension. Actually, this might well be the fastest establishment of an entirely new passenger line since WW2, if not since the '20s.


----------



## cirdan

The Davy Crockett said:


> AAF's website states it will be modern equipment. Calling even rehabbed Hi-Liners 'modern equipment' would be a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying someone wouldn't do it, but it is a stretch.


Unless you interpret modern equipment as meaning it's not a steam train.


----------



## George Harris

chrsjrcj said:


> There is also an appendix located on the bottom right of their homepage. I had some trouble opening it up, but I was able to view it after right clicking and saving it to my computer. Probably the coolest part is the track chart between WPB and Miami that starts on page 116. Amtrak already released one for Jacksonville to WPB. We now have a full track chart of the FEC!


Maybe because it is a little big? *292.5MB*


----------



## Brian_tampa

Interesting article in the West Palm Beach paper tonight.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/passenger-train-on-track-for-south-florida-company/nS7bJ/

One item of interest is that AAF stated they will be hiring an operator for the service. I figured they would outsource this and maybe this will be part of the contract to purchase the 10 train sets.


----------



## afigg

Brian_tampa said:


> Interesting article in the West Palm Beach paper tonight.
> 
> ...
> 
> One item of interest is that AAF stated they will be hiring an operator for the service. I figured they would outsource this and maybe this will be part of the contract to purchase the 10 train sets.


Another item of interest in the article is "Launch is estimated for January 2015, ambitious for a project this size even if it already has been revised back from 2014." I'm not surprised as 2014 was really ambitious with 40 miles of new tracks to build. My take on the 2014 date is that the AAF management knew that 2014 was not realistic, but they are using the early date to create a sense of urgency to nudge the myriad local and state government agencies to get off the dime and not spend years dragging out the approval process.

i would be very surprised if AAF if launched in January, 2015. My guess would be the summer of 2015 at the earliest. 2015 could be an interesting year for passenger rail expansion if AAF starts the Miami to Orlando and Illinois starts Quad Cities and Dubuque to Chicago services.


----------



## Brian_tampa

afigg said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting article in the West Palm Beach paper tonight.
> 
> ...
> 
> One item of interest is that AAF stated they will be hiring an operator for the service. I figured they would outsource this and maybe this will be part of the contract to purchase the 10 train sets.
> 
> 
> 
> Another item of interest in the article is "Launch is estimated for January 2015, ambitious for a project this size even if it already has been revised back from 2014." I'm not surprised as 2014 was really ambitious with 40 miles of new tracks to build. My take on the 2014 date is that the AAF management knew that 2014 was not realistic, but they are using the early date to create a sense of urgency to nudge the myriad local and state government agencies to get off the dime and not spend years dragging out the approval process.
> 
> i would be very surprised if AAF if launched in January, 2015. My guess would be the summer of 2015 at the earliest. 2015 could be an interesting year for passenger rail expansion if AAF starts the Miami to Orlando and Illinois starts Quad Cities and Dubuque to Chicago services.
Click to expand...

My take on the start up schedule is for initial operations to begin in summer of 2015. This is due to the schedule for opening the new Orlando Intermodal Center at the airport. If you go to the orlando airport website, you can find construction documents where they estimate the schedule. See question 47 on page 12 of this presubmittal meeting minutes document from the Orlando Airport website:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/W-S100-101_Presubmittal_Minutes.pdf

It states an opening date of May 2015. It is my impression that the agreement between AAF and the Orlando airport will be announced soon. When that happens, we will know a great deal more about AAF and it's schedule.

Edit: also AAF said that train sets could take up to 24-30 months for delivery from date of order. That was from the YouTube video of the AAF presentation to the FEC historical society conference back in September. So either way, a January 2015 startup seems unlikely.


----------



## chrsjrcj

According to the Palm Beach Post, AAF was the only bidder to use SR 528's ROW between Cocoa and OIA.

http://www.palmbeach...ivate-ra/nTQNT/


----------



## Anderson

For the moment, I'll be hopeful that they have to accept their bid, which would do wonders for clearing FEC/AAF's path forwards. Not that it would remove _all_ the obstacles, but it would go quite a ways towards doing so.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Update to AAF getting the go ahead to negotiate with FDOT. New price tag is 1.5 billion and as I suspected (see my previous posts), startup not until end of 2015. Here is link to article from South Florida Biz Journal:

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2012/12/18/passenger-rail-company-all-aboard.html

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the increase is due to ongoing negotiations with the Orlando airport over who covers the cost of the new station as well as demands from the expressway authority for more potential bridges across future interchanges.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Update to AAF getting the go ahead to negotiate with FDOT. New price tag is 1.5 billion and as I suspected (see my previous posts), startup not until end of 2015. Here is link to article from South Florida Biz Journal:
> 
> http://www.bizjourna...all-aboard.html
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if part of the increase is due to ongoing negotiations with the Orlando airport over who covers the cost of the new station as well as demands from the expressway authority for more potential bridges across future interchanges.


It's also possible that OOCEA has pushed the cost of access up as well.


----------



## afigg

Orlando Sentinel news story on AAF getting approval "All Aboard Florida wins OK to negotiate for BeachLine right of way". This article is still staying service could start by early 2015, but the other article with a possible late 2015 date sounds more realistic to me. There are stations to build, flyovers to design and build for the Beach Line expressway route, elevated station in Miami, new station complex at Orlando Airport that has to be integrated in with the airport plans and layout.

With the projected price tag increasing to $1.5 billion and likely to go up a bit more, FECI / AAF may be dependent on getting low interest RRIF loans to cover the bulk of the construction costs for the project to proceed.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Looks like the STB in a late decision on Friday 12/21/2012 approved AAF's request for exemption from STB oversight.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/decisions/ReadingRoom.nsf/UNID/3742BD042B141CAA85257ADB0079675B/$file/42728.pdf

This should clear the way for a RRIF loan application with the FRA.


----------



## pennyk

This article was on the front page of the Orlando Sentinel, above the fold, today (12/26/12).

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-miami-to-orlando-train-20121225,0,7345804.story


----------



## Anderson

Ok, I'm just wondering...has _anyone_ pulled off an exemption from STB/ICC oversight on an intercity passenger rail line? Ever?


----------



## Nathanael

That's kind of an impressive decision to get -- the Vice Chairman's dissent seems correct to me, FWIW.


----------



## jis

STB ruled that it has no interest in the lease agreement between CSX and Amtrak for the portion of the Empire Corridor. This incidentally was no surprise to anyone and was fully expected.

(null)


----------



## Scott Orlando

As a complete newbie to AU, I posted this in the Commuter Rail section. My thoughts were more about a Sunrail connection (via the OUC tracks to the south) than the FEC AAF project. However, after finding this huge discussion on AAF, I thought (hope) its ok to repost it here.

I found this the other day...the master plan for the new south terminal of the Orlando International Airport. Very interesting. It shows a station for Sunrail commuter rail, Light Rail (which never heard of for the airport) and the shuttle train to the existing north terminal. There must be a tweaking in the works to include the FEC All Aboard Florida express train to Cocoa, West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami. Despite the fact the governor cancelled HSR to Tampa, the idea never seems to die. And there is the proposed Maglev train from Medical City-airport-convention center. It would be nice to see all modes of transport come together like the Miami Central Station at the Miami International Airport. 

Here is the link that shows the station...

http://www.orlandoai..._Renderings.pdf

and the entire web site with the MCO master plan...

http://www.orlandoai...iger4/index.htm


----------



## afigg

AAF through a LLC has brought $4 million of property in West Palm Beach to be used for the train station according to the Palm Beach Post. real money is getting put into the Maimi to Orlando corridor plan.


----------



## jis

Here is an odd twist to the Miami - Orlando passenger Rail project....

From the _Orlando Sentinel_:



> The Mormon church could stymie efforts to build a $1.5 billion train between South Florida and Orlando International Airport by not allowing tracks on land it once owned.
> 
> Attorneys for All Aboard Florida, the Coral Gables company behind the train, are trying to decide what to do about the potential problem. On Thursday, they were poring over legal documents related to the property on the south side of the BeachLine Expressway near the airport.
> 
> "We're still analyzing it. I don't have an answer to it," said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Florida East Coast Industries, a privately held real-estate outfit that owns All Aboard Florida.


You can read the whole story here.


----------



## Gratt

jis said:


> Here is an odd twist to the Miami - Orlando passenger Rail project....
> From the _Orlando Sentinel_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mormon church could stymie efforts to build a $1.5 billion train between South Florida and Orlando International Airport by not allowing tracks on land it once owned.
> 
> Attorneys for All Aboard Florida, the Coral Gables company behind the train, are trying to decide what to do about the potential problem. On Thursday, they were poring over legal documents related to the property on the south side of the BeachLine Expressway near the airport.
> 
> "We're still analyzing it. I don't have an answer to it," said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Florida East Coast Industries, a privately held real-estate outfit that owns All Aboard Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole story here.
Click to expand...

I did not see anything in the article that indicated that the Mormons were even remotely interested in blocking this project. This sounds like an attempt to create a headline more than real news.


----------



## jis

Gratt said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an odd twist to the Miami - Orlando passenger Rail project....
> From the _Orlando Sentinel_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mormon church could stymie efforts to build a $1.5 billion train between South Florida and Orlando International Airport by not allowing tracks on land it once owned.
> 
> Attorneys for All Aboard Florida, the Coral Gables company behind the train, are trying to decide what to do about the potential problem. On Thursday, they were poring over legal documents related to the property on the south side of the BeachLine Expressway near the airport.
> 
> "We're still analyzing it. I don't have an answer to it," said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Florida East Coast Industries, a privately held real-estate outfit that owns All Aboard Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole story here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not see anything in the article that indicated that the Mormons were even remotely interested in blocking this project. This sounds like an attempt to create a headline more than real news.
Click to expand...

It is news because All Aboard Florida is taking it seriously. Otherwise it would not be news. It is good to see that they are being proactive rather than being blindsided later.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an odd twist to the Miami - Orlando passenger Rail project....
> From the _Orlando Sentinel_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mormon church could stymie efforts to build a $1.5 billion train between South Florida and Orlando International Airport by not allowing tracks on land it once owned.
> 
> Attorneys for All Aboard Florida, the Coral Gables company behind the train, are trying to decide what to do about the potential problem. On Thursday, they were poring over legal documents related to the property on the south side of the BeachLine Expressway near the airport.
> 
> "We're still analyzing it. I don't have an answer to it," said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Florida East Coast Industries, a privately held real-estate outfit that owns All Aboard Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole story here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not see anything in the article that indicated that the Mormons were even remotely interested in blocking this project. This sounds like an attempt to create a headline more than real news.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is news because All Aboard Florida is taking it seriously. Otherwise it would not be news. It is good to see that they are being proactive rather than being blindsided later.
Click to expand...

When I read the story in my Orlando Sentinel newspaper, I came away with the impression that there was a potential threat to this project.


----------



## George Harris

pennyk said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an odd twist to the Miami - Orlando passenger Rail project....
> From the _Orlando Sentinel_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mormon church could stymie efforts to build a $1.5 billion train between South Florida and Orlando International Airport by not allowing tracks on land it once owned.
> 
> Attorneys for All Aboard Florida, the Coral Gables company behind the train, are trying to decide what to do about the potential problem. On Thursday, they were poring over legal documents related to the property on the south side of the BeachLine Expressway near the airport.
> 
> "We're still analyzing it. I don't have an answer to it," said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Florida East Coast Industries, a privately held real-estate outfit that owns All Aboard Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole story here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not see anything in the article that indicated that the Mormons were even remotely interested in blocking this project. This sounds like an attempt to create a headline more than real news.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is news because All Aboard Florida is taking it seriously. Otherwise it would not be news. It is good to see that they are being proactive rather than being blindsided later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I read the story in my Orlando Sentinel newspaper, I came away with the impression that there was a potential threat to this project.
Click to expand...

Having read this story on-line after in being brought up in another web site the main impression I came away with was much ado about nothing.

"Could" seemed to be the word chosen relative to most of the issues raised. The article seemed to be primarily a congolmeration of fact-free supposition and guesswork used to fill a blank space on the page.

When you read the headline, it sounds like the project would require taking of one of their major facilities in the area. But, when you get beyond the headline it is far less. All that is required is a modification of a near 50 year old agreement between a LDS church owned property and the expressway authority, which does not appear to require one additional acre of their property.

The quotes from both the Expressway Authority person and the Deseret Ranch person sound more like the cautious responses of people that were blindsided by the question tnan any form of position statement. Read the Deseret Ranch manager's statement:



> Ranch manager Erik Jacobsen, contacted by email, would say only, "We are supportive of efforts to bring rail to Central Florida as part of regional transportation opportunities and are willing to work with all parties involved."


The article went on to say, "He declined further comment." What else could he say? I would consider this statement as sounding relatively positive.

As to the thought of being able to operate by 2015: I do not know what planet these people are living on to think this possible? It would be doubtful if construciton could start today, and we are not even there yet.


----------



## Anderson

I think the "story", if there is one here, is that they might be looking to leverage their position in some fashion or another. I found the idea that they might try and leverage their position to add a stop at their planned development _particularly_ interesting.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Yesterday Feb 4th, the FRA released its decision (signed on January 30th, 2013 by Mr. Joseph Szabo) on the Environmental Assessment (EA) that was submitted for public review back around the first of November 2012. They concluded with a "Finding of No Significant Impact" (FONSI). This means that no Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) is required and also appears to clear the way for AAF to apply for a RRIF loan for the section of the project between Miami and WPB. If other federal RRIF loans are sought for other portions of the route, a similar EA review will have to be undertaken for those sections.

Here is the link to the EA report document in pdf format:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Details/L04277

Interesting paragraph from page 26, Barriers to Elderly and Handicapped:

"Further, AAF trains will be single level, fully accessible coaches, with level floor boarding from platforms. All station facilities and platforms will have elevator access, and individuals with disabilities will not encounter stairs in boarding or departing from trains. Also, there will be no stairs or other obstacles to impede movement on board trains. AAF trains will be the first-in-the-nation to have the entire train accessible to wheelchair passengers, including access to pass between coaches for the entire length of the train." _(From the FONSI report)_

What available train sets match this description? Especially the claim of wheelchair access between train cars?


----------



## chrsjrcj

This rules out any Superliner cars (passage between cars on the top level) and Amfleet (stairs to board because of low level platforms). Not like Amtrak had many to spare anyway.

Personally, I'm still holding out for the Talgo.

ETA: Hmm...page 9:



> For example,
> to operate safely and efficiently, all station alternatives would need to be situated on tangent track at
> sites that accommodate the development of high-level platforms at least 800 feet long and
> approximately 50 inches high above the top of the rail to comply with level boarding requirements of
> the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (PL 110-325).


This probably puts the Talgo out of play, but Tri-Rail wouldn't be able to share platforms with AAF since their fleet requires low level boarding. I also believe that Amtrak's Acela is fully handicap accessible (platforms and changing cars), so I'm confused when it comes to AAF's claim.

ETA 2: AAF answers pretty much all my questions on page 38:



> SFRTA endorses the Project but makes the following comments:
> 
> •The EA does not encompass the full scope of AAF’s planned passenger network.
> •The EA does not analyze the impact of AAF’s proposed operations on the existing Tri-Rail
> Commuter Rail service or AMTRAK’s intercity service, or assess the amplified benefits of
> linking AAF’s and Tri-Rail and/or AMTRAK’s operations.
> •The EA does not provide support for assertions that future freight traffic on AAF’s
> corridor will not exceed 2006 volumes.
> 
> Response: With regard to the first comment, it should be noted that the EA covers the project as
> proposed by the AAF to the FRA (see additional discussion in section 1.0 of this FONSI) addressing West
> Palm Beach to Miami, Florida, which AAF intends to pursue as an independent project. With regard to
> the second comment, commuter rail is not part of the No Build Alternative and is not part of the
> Selected Alternative. The possibility of commuter rail within the FEC corridor has been studied for at
> least 10 years. Those studies have not yet established a definite preferred alternative or
> approach. Moreover, no funding plan exists for such commuter service. Given the number of issues still
> in flux regarding the possibility of commuter rail within the FEC corridor, an agreement is not in place
> between FDOT, SFRTA and AAF for that service. However, as AAF has stated in the EA, while there are
> no current plans for shared use of the stations for commuter rail service, the option for such service will
> continue to exist even after the Project becomes operational because the stations will be developed in a
> manner that will not preclude future commuter rail service on the FEC corridor, by SFRTA, FDOT or
> others. Further, AAF representatives have publically and consistently stated their support for commuter
> rail over the last 10 years. 28
> 
> The investment grade ridership study completed by AAF assumes a fare structure that is multiple times
> the current fare structure published by SFRTA. This accounts not only for the different type of service
> that will be provided by AAF (e.g. multiple class seating, free Wi-Fi, meal service, etc.), but also allows
> AAF to target the non-commuter market that exists in the South Florida region. With intercity type oftrain sets,
> service times (one-hour headways instead of twenty minute headways in the case of Tri-Rail
> during peak hours), and service attributes, AAF will serve different market segments than Tri-Rail,
> therefore allowing both to coexist in the region. FRA agrees that continued coordination by AAF with
> FDOT and SFRTA is appropriate and has been included as one of the mitigation commitments identified
> in section 7.


----------



## chrsjrcj

It also appears to be just for the Miami to West Palm Beach section. I've been wondering if this will be Phase 1, and they'll run "express" train between Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach. Tri-Rail just recently received extra equipment (in the form of Hyundai-Rotem cars, unfortunately), so they can run trains on the FEC. Whether it's in the form of Tri-Rail or AAF, I won't be surprised to see passenger trains while I'm driving down US 1 in a few years. I think that much is certain.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Just saw today at the Orlando airport website (GOAA) the following RFQ notice:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/construction/advertisements/WS102A_Advertisement.pdf

I believe this is a recent RFQ post from the GOAA. The most interesting thing about this RFQ is located in the third paragraph:

*"The [email protected] - South Airport Intermodal Terminal will also be required to coordinate with the owner and operator of the Intercity Rail system, Florida Enterprise Corporation (FEC), and other intermodal system owners as applicable."*

Despite no public announcement that an agreement between FEC and the GOAA has been reached since negotiations started last July, this RFQ assumes that FEC (and its subsidiary AAF) are definitely going to be building and operating trains into the new South Terminal Intermodal Terminal station. Interesting news! (Even though they got the corporate name wrong!)


----------



## George Harris

Brian_tampa said:


> "Further, AAF trains will be single level, fully accessible coaches, with level floor boarding from platforms. All station facilities and platforms will have elevator access, and individuals with disabilities will not encounter stairs in boarding or departing from trains. Also, there will be no stairs or other obstacles to impede movement on board trains. AAF trains will be the first-in-the-nation to have the entire train accessible to wheelchair passengers, including access to pass between coaches for the entire length of the train." _(From the FONSI report)_
> What available train sets match this description? Especially the claim of wheelchair access between train cars?


I think any trainset currently available would require wider doors between cars.

The problem you do get is that a high level platform meeting ADA requirements (not more than 3 inch gap and within 5/8 inch of floor level) will not pass standard freight cars. The standard passenger car is 10'-0" wide at floor level and the standard AAR freight car width is 10'-8", so right there you have a 4 inch gap with ZERO clearance to the freight car standard maximum dimension. This means that for every platform, either the track has to be prohibited to freight moves, or a gantlet track installed.

The vehicle that can be used without fancy work at platforms is a car built to the Japanese Shinkansen width, which is 3380 mm (11'-1") wide. With this, you can set a platform that is 5'-7" offset from track centerline, which both meets ADA and allows a freight car to pass.

There is much to be said for using this width passenger car everwhere in the US where it can fit, which really means everywhere outside the small clearance northeast and trains that have to go there. Using the Shinkansen 3-2 seating, these cars can give you essentially the same passenger capacity as a Superliner and do it on one level, without using airplane sardine can seat width and spacing.

By the way, even though the article refers to 50 inch platform height, the car floor height is 51 inches above the rail for Acela and I think also Amfleet, For the Shinkansen cars the floor height is 1300 mm which is right at 51 1/4 inces above the rail.


----------



## Anderson

Hmm...this is just that Texas project talking, but I'm wondering if JR Central might not sell some non-MU cars in conjunction with an ongoing order. I'm wondering how much trouble it would be for them to pull off the pans and MU gear and sell a few sets that could be hooked up to diesel locos?


----------



## George Harris

Anderson said:


> Hmm...this is just that Texas project talking, but I'm wondering if JR Central might not sell some non-MU cars in conjunction with an ongoing order. I'm wondering how much trouble it would be for them to pull off the pans and MU gear and sell a few sets that could be hooked up to diesel locos?


Start with the body shell and work out. There are not powered cars in the Shinkansen sets that could be used as the basis. Put the diesel in an end unit body shell. By the way, the normal end units on Shinkansen trainsets do not have traction motors.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Orlando Business Journal:



> *GOAA, FAA in dispute over rail line location*
> 
> The Greater Orlando Aviation Authority is appealing changes the Federal Aviation Administration wants at Orlando International Airport to allow All Aboard Florida’s proposed train to travel along State Road 528 and through the northern entrance of the airport, Orlando Business Journal has learned.
> 
> The FAA was concerned the rail path would be too close to airport runways and asked the authority to require All Aboard Florida to locate the rail line six feet below ground level or move the runway by 1,020 feet.


It does mention that AAF will enter the airport from the north, which makes sense if the eventual plan is to extend to Tampa.


----------



## Brian_tampa

In tonight's online WPB Newspaper:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-confirms-west-palm-station-clea/nWZL2/

Looks like the WPB station location has been confirmed as was suspected previously. Also, a second environmental assessment will cover the rest of the route by end of 2013. AAF says it will operational by end of 2015 - no surprise given the slowness in obtaining agreements with the Orlando airport and Beachline Expy Authority.

I just want to know what rolling stock they have ordered! My gut feeling is that AAF has done alot of work so far and has yet to publicly announce it. As reported before, AAF themselves said it will take 24 to 30 months to obtain new train sets.


----------



## MikefromCrete

George Harris said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Further, AAF trains will be single level, fully accessible coaches, with level floor boarding from platforms. All station facilities and platforms will have elevator access, and individuals with disabilities will not encounter stairs in boarding or departing from trains. Also, there will be no stairs or other obstacles to impede movement on board trains. AAF trains will be the first-in-the-nation to have the entire train accessible to wheelchair passengers, including access to pass between coaches for the entire length of the train." _(From the FONSI report)_
> What available train sets match this description? Especially the claim of wheelchair access between train cars?
> 
> 
> 
> I think any trainset currently available would require wider doors between cars.
> 
> The problem you do get is that a high level platform meeting ADA requirements (not more than 3 inch gap and within 5/8 inch of floor level) will not pass standard freight cars. The standard passenger car is 10'-0" wide at floor level and the standard AAR freight car width is 10'-8", so right there you have a 4 inch gap with ZERO clearance to the freight car standard maximum dimension. This means that for every platform, either the track has to be prohibited to freight moves, or a gantlet track installed.
> 
> The vehicle that can be used without fancy work at platforms is a car built to the Japanese Shinkansen width, which is 3380 mm (11'-1") wide. With this, you can set a platform that is 5'-7" offset from track centerline, which both meets ADA and allows a freight car to pass.
> 
> There is much to be said for using this width passenger car everwhere in the US where it can fit, which really means everywhere outside the small clearance northeast and trains that have to go there. Using the Shinkansen 3-2 seating, these cars can give you essentially the same passenger capacity as a Superliner and do it on one level, without using airplane sardine can seat width and spacing.
> 
> By the way, even though the article refers to 50 inch platform height, the car floor height is 51 inches above the rail for Acela and I think also Amfleet, For the Shinkansen cars the floor height is 1300 mm which is right at 51 1/4 inces above the rail.
Click to expand...

3-2 seating, ugh.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

It looks like the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority and the FAA are working at working out their differences about the requirement the FAA wanted that the tracks be below ground level, as both have filed a stay motion in GOAA's appeal of the FAA's decision.

Details are in this article in the Orlando Business Journal from Feb. 15.

From the article:



> The FAA was concerned the rail path would be too close to airport runways and asked the authority to require All Aboard Florida to locate the rail line six feet below ground level or move the runway by 1,020 feet.GOAA concluded that sinking the rail line six feet wouldn’t work because Florida’s water table is lower than six feet and moving the runway would dramatically impact the airport.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Can't sink the rail line 6 feet because of the water table? Orlando (Disney World) has tunnels, Ft. Lauderdale has a tunnel, and Miami is building a tunnel. I'd think 6 feet is fine, but I'm not a geologist.


----------



## Aaron

chrsjrcj said:


> Can't sink the rail line 6 feet because of the water table? Orlando (Disney World) has tunnels, Ft. Lauderdale has a tunnel, and Miami is building a tunnel. I'd think 6 feet is fine, but I'm not a geologist.


I don't know about Ft. Lauderdale or Miami, but at least at the Magic Kingdom at Disney World, the tunnels are for the most part not underground. Think of the tunnels as the "first story", with the rest of the Magic Kingdom built on top of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilidor#Utilidors_at_Walt_Disney_World


----------



## cirdan

THE CJ said:


> Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and here is the shocker. These hi-level cars are Ex-ATSF and Amtrak Hi-levels. Not sure if this is what they will use, but 2014 is two years away still and things can change. Can't rule out they may purchase used cars.
> http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf


I wouldn't attach too much importance to those details for now. I may be mistaken, but to me that power point looks like somebody thinking out loud, and recoloring some graphics they downloaded from the internet. Many of the pictures look vaguely familiar so I believe I may have come across them elsewhere in a different context. They're probably not all from the same source either, as the exterior mockups don't fully match the interior ones. I thus don't belive that detail planning has actually reached this stage yet.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A short review of the status of All Aboard Florida in today's Orlando Business Journal:

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2013/03/all-aboard-execs-target-this-year-to.html

AAF is saying construction to start this year as well as ordering train sets, and completing negotiations with the FDOT.


----------



## battalion51

You know I have to wonder if Talgo is going to make a big push to sell the sets that Wisconsin was going to buy for this project. I also wonder if FEC is going to operate this independently, or if there is going to be some sort of effort to do codeshare with Amtrak...


----------



## AlanB

I don't see the Talgo's going to the FEC, since they've said that they want bi-levels and the Talgo's are single level. Additionally, two sets isn't enough to operate the service.

As for a code share, I rather doubt it, since really the only places that a transfer might be feasible are from West Palm and south. I don't see most people wanting to ride south from Orlando and other points to connect at WPB, only to go back north on Amtrak.

Now, if Amtrak ever starts running on the FEC from JAX to MIA, then things could change. And seeing as how Gene Skorpowski, the former manager of the Capitol Corridor and the genius/architect behind the huge success of said corridor, was hired by the FEC to put their passenger rail program together anything is possible.


----------



## battalion51

All good points Alan. But, as the saying goes, Money Talks. If Talgo can sweeten the pot enough, they may be able to get FEC to buy in. If you think about it, Bi-Levels could easily work on Cascades, but they decided to go with a single level fleet. Having something that's FRA approved would certainly help...


----------



## jis

Given that Skorpowski is the man who decides this stuff for FEC, I'd be quite surprised if FEC takes Talgos that are not available in sufficient numbers to cover their current needs and thus get stuck with managing two separate relatively small fleets with all the associated headaches of maintaining multiple maintenance facilities and parts inventory and all that. He is too business minded to fall for that kind of stuff. but we'll see.


----------



## Paulus

AlanB said:


> I don't see the Talgo's going to the FEC, since they've said that they want bi-levels and the Talgo's are single level. Additionally, two sets isn't enough to operate the service.


Information I have is that they are going for single level sets, not bilevel.


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## Blackwolf

So, just how many trainsets would the FEC need anyhow? Talgo has two turn-key sets right now that could me modified to FEC specs relatively easily (remember, the Wisconsin trains never had a cafe and only had one class of service.) Could Talgo, if FEC drafted up a contract for business, whip their US plant back into full-operation for an additional number of trains on semi-short-notice if asked for more sets?

I'm thinking along the lines of: "We have X $million and can contract you immediately, but you need to provide the trains in 18 months or no deal."


----------



## Eric S

I don't have the information in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure the 2 WI trainsets did/do have cafe or bistro cars. That was one of the points of contention, that the capacity of the Talgo trainsets would be less than the capacity of the current Amfleet/Horizon trains used on the _Hiawatha_. Originally, without the cafe, the capacity was to be slightly greater, but when WI changed things to add the cafe, capacity ended up somewhat less than at present.


----------



## Trogdor

The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.

One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Here is a link to the "Talgo Series 8 High Speed Passenger Car" pamphlet. Now it is a general marketing tool, but there are several things I found interesting in relation to AAF:

1) From the pamphlet:



> Talgo is equally suited to operate in straight, high speed lines, providingbenefits to the operators associated with its lightweight construction,
> 
> articulated configuration and independent wheels.


2) There is a dining car option. I don't remember if AAF wants to provide 'at seat' dining like AE FC has, but I do know they talked about having more than a bistro car.

3) From the pamphlet:



> Any conventional U.S. locomotive can haul Talgo passenger cars.


4) The "cab and auxiliary power car" has a stiking resemblence to Goofy, which would make it ideal for getting people to/from Orlando.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

They need to paint a picture of Goofy on it, then it would draw a lot of attention.


----------



## cirdan

Blackwolf said:


> So, just how many trainsets would the FEC need anyhow? Talgo has two turn-key sets right now that could me modified to FEC specs relatively easily (remember, the Wisconsin trains never had a cafe and only had one class of service.) Could Talgo, if FEC drafted up a contract for business, whip their US plant back into full-operation for an additional number of trains on semi-short-notice if asked for more sets?
> I'm thinking along the lines of: "We have X $million and can contract you immediately, but you need to provide the trains in 18 months or no deal."


I guess Talgo could whip that plant back into production. They could also source the cars from Spain (as FEC is privately financed, Buy America rules don't apply). Maybe they can also find a US partner company to build them in the US. At the end of the day, economics will decide.

Is FEC not planning to operate a cafe? That would be a big minus in my opinion, as a cafe car service is something that neither buses nor airlines can offer. It would be a huge selling point.

I also wasn't aware that FEC was planning only one class of service. Again, I wonder whether that's a sound decison as it might keep away business travellers.


----------



## cirdan

Trogdor said:


> The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
> One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.


If they chose to go that way, I hope they keep the end cars. RENFE has several short talgo sets consisting of end cars and just a handful of intermediate cars. They are added onto full-length trains when the need dictates it, such as on peak travel days. I believe they are fitted with diaphragms so passengers can access the dining car.


----------



## Anderson

I know FEC has touted planned food service (including meals), and three hours is a bit long to go without any OBS (there's a reason that Metro-North and the LIRR do still have limited OBS on a few longer runs...some NHV-bound trains and the Cannonball, IIRC). Whether they go with a dedicated cafe car, have a partial cafe/coach car, or try to get away with cart-only service is the question.

Edit:



> *Services and amenities: * The new passenger rail service will provide premium amenities, including Wi-Fi internet service, gourmet meals, reserved business and coach class seating, and will be fully equipped with easy-on/easy-off baggage compartments.


I assume the "gourmet meals" bit is likely to be slightly overblown, but it hints at decent OBS, whether handled via cart or via a dedicated car. If they go with bilevels, what I would bet on is one level of one car being given over to OBS.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Folks:



> One of the goals is to operate the trains with an overall average speed similar to the Acela Express operating on the Northeast Corridor between New York and Washington, DC, reducing the travel time between Miami and Orlando to three hours and two minutes versus the approximately four hour driving time. Trains will offer a full range of premium amenities including Wi-Fi internet service, gourmet meals and beverage service, comfortable seating, reserved business & coach service seating, luggage & bicycle accommodations and online reservations.


From this article.

High Speed? Business Class? Luggage & Bike Storage? Wi-Fi? Meal and Beverage Service? Like I said before, check out the Talgo 8 series people.


----------



## Brian_tampa

AAF has apparently applied for an FRA RRIF loan on this past Friday:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-train-loan-feds-20130318,0,946363.story

No word on how much it is for according to the article. I always expected this since it was announced last October they were considering it. I assume it is for the Miami to WPB section as that is what has been cleared through the FRA and the environmental impact report last month.


----------



## PPorro

Trogdor said:


> The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
> One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.


Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Here is an article From The Miami Herald on the latest on AAF. (Don't mind the picture of the anti-toll activist who doesn't understand that roads don't pay their way and need funding from somewhere.)

From the article:



> Originally announced in March 2012, All Aboard Florida service was expected to launch in 2014. The start date has been moved back to 2015, Cumber said in a recent interview.
> Aside from the delay, the project is on track.
> 
> The company’s $1 billion plan features 16 round trips a day from early morning to late evening with stops in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach — *with service possibly starting in late 2015*. Trains would run hourly and each one-way trip would take about three hours. (emphasis added)




Also:



> Quiet zones are perhaps one of the project’s most challenging issues, eliciting emotional reaction among residents who live near the track and demand that the train pass by quietly. Only public authorities such as cities, counties and the state can apply for authorization to build a quiet zone.“All Aboard Florida is in the process of determining the infrastructure needs for the system and we recognize that public agencies may want to explore opportunities to coordinate the construction of other improvements,” Cumber said. “We are willing to explore these ideas while we are still in the initial design phase.”
> 
> Quiet zones have already been set up along the existing stretch of the track in Miami, Cumber said. The Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council is looking into the possibility, an official said.


----------



## Brian_tampa

It seems that the Orlando airport authority has decided to not build a new south terminal, but instead focus (for now) on building the parking garage, tram, and train station. From the Orlando Sentinel:

_Orlando International Airport officials are backing away from efforts to build a new southern terminal, but they still want a $470 million monorail and parking garage for a train depot – despite opposition from the major airlines._

_Airport Chairman Frank Kruppenbacher said the train station is too important to the region's economy to be delayed. The monorail and parking garage would link to the depot paid for by the All Aboard Florida system from South Florida, with service planned to start in late 2015._

Here is the link http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-orlando-airport-board-20130320,0,2820400.story

It says that AAF would pay for the new station, while the Airport would pay for the parking garage and tram to the existing terminal.

Also of interest is this comment by the airline representative (from Southwest Airlines):

_Gillespie, who also heads a committee that represents the biggest airlines at Orlando International, said he believes construction of the train depot will set the stage for the southern terminal, making the building of both projects inevitable. He said the airlines don't consider the train a competitor for passengers._

The airlines are not being anti-train just anti-spending by the airport at this time. Maybe they can be persuaded to work with AAF.


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## MattW

I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.


----------



## Brian_tampa

MattW said:


> I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.


If I recall, Southwest has already announced service reductions between Orlando and south Florida airports that would take affect this year. That is why it would be good for the airlines to work with AAF. Although I think the STB might find that would create interstate commerce if the airlines and AAF had a code sharing or through ticketing agreement. And that would cast doubt on AAF's exemption from STB oversight that they obtained last year.


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## jis

I doubt that STB will be excited about that. Afterall AAF already plans to carry through ticketed passengers to Cruises that might call at other countries, which using the same argument should have gotten STB somewhat involved.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> I doubt that STB will be excited about that. Afterall AAF already plans to carry through ticketed passengers to Cruises that might call at other countries, which using the same argument should have gotten STB somewhat involved.


Oh I did not know about that. I had heard rumors that they might. Do you know which cruise lines? That would be very helpful getting around Florida if you are a tourist. Not sure if international travel is under the purview of the STB.


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## cirdan

MattW said:


> I would hope the airlines realize that the train is a good thing for them. Instead of handling a lot of Orlando-Miami traffic, they can replace those short-haul flights with longer-haul flights from elsewhere which should bring in more revenue. Orland-Miami at higher conventional speeds would seem to be right at the breakeven point for a person making a time-based decision on whether to fly or take the train.


It is also that people coming from intermediate places to go to the airport (and who previously wouldn't have because it was to much hassle) outweight the end to end travellers who previously caught the plane but will switch to the train. Hence both airlines and FEC benefit overall, even if on certain routes airlines will lose market share.


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## battalion51

It still seems like a waste to me to end at the airport. I could see having the airport as a station, but not as the terminal. If you look at what makes the Northeast Corridor successful it's taking people from where they are to where they want to go. It either needs to end up at the attractions area or at downtown, one or the other. Not having a link to SunRail just seems like it is going to be a waste as well. I guess it is possible that SunRail will put in a bus connection to the airport from the Sand Lake Road Station and that's just not being advertised yet, but then you're looking at a train-bus-tram-train trip...


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## Nathanael

PPorro said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
> One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.
> 
> 
> 
> Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?
Click to expand...

Same production line, same model, different configuration. I forget the differences.


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## Eric S

Nathanael said:


> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Wisconsin trains do cafes. You will more than likely see one or both heading northwest at some point, either as additional capacity, or to be broken up to provide spares/higher capacity for the other trains.
> One suggestion I'd heard that Washington/Oregon are looking into is breaking up the one odd Talgo that normally operates 510/517 (the former "Las Vegas" trainset, I forget its current name) and has one less coach than the others. The cars from that would go to adding capacity to the other four old ones. The Wisconsin sets could be sent out there and have one of the sets broken up to add capacity to the other new ones. Interesting idea, and, frankly, there really is no other use for those Talgo trains in this country, without restarting a production line.
> 
> 
> 
> Are these different from the Talgo trains that went from WI to Oregon in November?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same production line, same model, different configuration. I forget the differences.
Click to expand...

WI - 14 cars, coach class only

OR - 13 cars, coach and business classes

I think those are the key differences.


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## Anderson

A point to be had: The difference between coach and BC is likely something that could be fixed with a (relatively modest) renovation of 1-2 cars.


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## The Davy Crockett

According to this article in the Orlando Sentinel, liability concerns by the Beechline Expressway's overseers, the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority, over who would pay for what - in the event of a 'collision' - are holding up the negotiations.



> Officials at the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority said Monday that they want to be sure the agency does not have to bear much, if any, responsibility if there is a collision on the BeachLine Expressway it owns between a car and the All Aboard Florida train.



And maybe I missed this earlier, or my addled brain doesn't remember, but I found this of interest too:



> The state and Orlando agency are willing to lease the land* along the southern edge of the road *for 99 years at little or no cost to All Aboard. But Zucker said they need a resolution on what is called indemnification. Until then, no deal. (emphasis added)


Doesn't sound like AAF will be in the median.

When might the liability issue be resolved? I'm glad you asked! 



> The authority hopes to schedule more talks, officials said, but they may not take place until May, when a three-member committee involved in the agreement meets again.


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## chrsjrcj

A collision with a car? :unsure: Isn't that part of the route supposed to be grade separated anyway?


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## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> A collision with a car? :unsure: Isn't that part of the route supposed to be grade separated anyway?


The train falling off its track comes to mind. Indemnification is about any eventuality that might require payment of damages, not just collision with cars.


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## Brian_tampa

Interesting counterpoint article (to the Orlando Sentinel report about "fretting over crashes") at tollroadsnews.com regarding AAF and OOCEA. This article says:

_Michelle Maikisch, spokesman for the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) is quite indignant about the report and says she "had words with" the reporter._

Also she said there were no big holdups in the talks with AAF:

_There is no hold-up in talks, Maikisch insists, and Zucker the OOCEA lawyer did not speak in the take-it-or-leave-it terms the Sentinel suggested: "I was there I heard him speak."

*Normal discussions over details of lease*_

_She says the Expressway Authority has agreed in principle to lease a railroad company right of way along the 528 so it can build a rail line and operate trains in the corridor. And Maikisch says the Authority is having normal discussions with the lessee company about many details of the lease including liability in case of accidents._

So I guess the story is really a bunch of media invented excitment? Stay tuned...

Here is the link to the article: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6488


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## jis

Well, just because they have to agree on something and they have not gotten around to doing it yet, does not mean there is any significant roadblock necessarily. But given someone that is having a light day and is looking to make an exciting story, one can put whatever theory one wants to explain why an agreement has not been signed yet, something way juicer than say something like "the planned timeline calls for completing this task by the end of June", which is kind of boring.


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## Ryan

Brian_tampa said:


> So I guess the story is really a bunch of media invented excitment?


Say it ain't so!!!


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## Paulus

chrsjrcj said:


> A collision with a car? :unsure: Isn't that part of the route supposed to be grade separated anyway?


Although other posts have taken care of this specific claim, I would imagine it to be part of normal negotiations. Freaky stuff does happen and I can think of at least one car winding up on grade separated portions of Surfliner route in the past year (really want to say that there were two, in fact, but not sure).


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## The Davy Crockett

Wow, that seems like a pretty strong reaction by Ms. Maikisch.  "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." wrote some old washed up dude named Shakespeare. :giggle:

And of course it is always wiser to take a government official at face value than a reporter.  A good example of this would be a littile incident referred to as Watergate... If it hadn't been for those lying reporters... :huh:

If AAF was to be believed, wasn't this agreement was to have been inked last year? ^_^

Negotiations can be a delicate thing and I suspect "we the people" are being played kinda like a hockey puck.


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## pennyk

The Davy Crockett said:


> Wow, that seems like a pretty strong reaction by Ms. Maikisch.  "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." wrote some old washed up dude named Shakespeare. :giggle:
> And of course it is always wiser to take a government official at face value than a reporter.  A good example of this would be a littile incident referred to as Watergate... If it hadn't been for those lying reporters... :huh:
> 
> If AAF was to be believed, wasn't this agreement was to have been inked last year? ^_^
> 
> Negotiations can be a delicate thing and I suspect "we the people" are being played kinda like a hockey puck.


I know the reporter who wrote the Orlando Sentinel article and he is an excellent reporter.


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## chrsjrcj

FWIW: Driving through Lake Worth and Lantana today, I noticed what looked like track ballast on the westside of the mainline stretching from the northend of the Hypuluxo siding, to at least Lantana road (past that, the tracks diverge from US 1 through downtown Lake Worth).


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## Brian_tampa

Here is the link to an interview the President of AAF gave to Metro Center Outlook tv show on the local Orlando public television station WUCF this past Friday:



Of interest: AAF will have a first class car, tiered pricing for different travel times, operate 6am to 10pm with hourly service, and he mentioned 9 car trains. Also he talked about investors in AAF.

I have read AAF's application they sent to FDOT last December (for the lease negotiations with the Beachline toll road) and it also mentioned a possible investment by the rolling stock builder and/or operator in AAF. It wasn't real clear on that but seemed to imply that.

Also the presentation at the EIS open houses being held now talk about completing the environmental reviews sometime next year and obtaining a record of decision from the FRA in about a year.


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## Anderson

Taking a guess, that sounds like sets of:
(1) First Class Car

(1) Food Service Car

(7) Coach Cars

As to the tiered pricing, I'm wondering if that's going to be a "standard" set of tiers (i.e. a set of peak times and a set of off-peak times) or if it will vary based on demand (i.e. what Amtrak tends to do).

The biggest surprise for me is the 10 PM slot in lieu of the 5 AM slot, because the latter would allow business travelers to get to either downtown ahead of 9 AM, while the former is likely to put folks at their destination close to 1 AM.


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## jphjaxfl

Anderson said:


> Taking a guess, that sounds like sets of1) First Class Car
> 
> (1) Food Service Car
> 
> (7) Coach Cars
> 
> As to the tiered pricing, I'm wondering if that's going to be a "standard" set of tiers (i.e. a set of peak times and a set of off-peak times) or if it will vary based on demand (i.e. what Amtrak tends to do).
> 
> The biggest surprise for me is the 10 PM slot in lieu of the 5 AM slot, because the latter would allow business travelers to get to either downtown ahead of 9 AM, while the former is likely to put folks at their destination close to 1 AM.


Since many of those riding the trains will be going to attractions in Orlando, I can see people wanting to get a late train back to Miami at 10PM. Also Miami is a late night city where local residence operate on Cuban time. Most people in Miami don't have dinner until 9PM so they would certainly prefer a 10PM departure to a 5AM departure which would not get many takers in that city.


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## Anderson

Charlie and I were talking, and I suspect you're right. You might also get slight differences between the NB and SB schedules, too...I could see a 5:30 AM working its way into the MIA end, for example (to allow for travel time downtown once you get to ORL). I could also see a later departure from ORL on weekends timed to coincide with X-amount-of-time-after-parks-close, for the simple fact that I suspect train/bus/park deals are going to become a sellable proposition (I'm not sure what load factor a train is going to need to be considered successful, but a full bus each to Universal and Disney is probably over 1/4 of a train sold right there).

There's precedent for this on the Acelas (WAS has a 0500 departure, NYP does not; the evening times also vary between NYP and WAS, too), not to mention (presuming these times tend to be on weekends/holidays) all over the NEC.


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## jphjaxfl

Anderson said:


> Charlie and I were talking, and I suspect you're right. You might also get slight differences between the NB and SB schedules, too...I could see a 5:30 AM working its way into the MIA end, for example (to allow for travel time downtown once you get to ORL). I could also see a later departure from ORL on weekends timed to coincide with X-amount-of-time-after-parks-close, for the simple fact that I suspect train/bus/park deals are going to become a sellable proposition (I'm not sure what load factor a train is going to need to be considered successful, but a full bus each to Universal and Disney is probably over 1/4 of a train sold right there).
> There's precedent for this on the Acelas (WAS has a 0500 departure, NYP does not; the evening times also vary between NYP and WAS, too), not to mention (presuming these times tend to be on weekends/holidays) all over the NEC.





Anderson said:


> Charlie and I were talking, and I suspect you're right. You might also get slight differences between the NB and SB schedules, too...I could see a 5:30 AM working its way into the MIA end, for example (to allow for travel time downtown once you get to ORL). I could also see a later departure from ORL on weekends timed to coincide with X-amount-of-time-after-parks-close, for the simple fact that I suspect train/bus/park deals are going to become a sellable proposition (I'm not sure what load factor a train is going to need to be considered successful, but a full bus each to Universal and Disney is probably over 1/4 of a train sold right there).
> There's precedent for this on the Acelas (WAS has a 0500 departure, NYP does not; the evening times also vary between NYP and WAS, too), not to mention (presuming these times tend to be on weekends/holidays) all over the NEC.


I think AAF will be successful. I have numerous European friends who like to fly into Miami and spend a few days in South Beach, then head up to Orlando. They can't believe there is only 1 direct train from Miami to Orlando. I don't think there will be any problem filling the trains up. I think the trains will have name too. ??Service.


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## Anderson

I really don't doubt that the service as a whole will be a success of some sort (even if there will likely be a need for better transit links in ORL between the airport and downtown for the business crowd), and I'm hopeful of the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions coming to pass. In my last post I was specifically thinking of odd-hour services.


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## jphjaxfl

Anderson said:


> I really don't doubt that the service as a whole will be a success of some sort (even if there will likely be a need for better transit links in ORL between the airport and downtown for the business crowd), and I'm hopeful of the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions coming to pass. In my last post I was specifically thinking of odd-hour services.





Anderson said:


> I really don't doubt that the service as a whole will be a success of some sort (even if there will likely be a need for better transit links in ORL between the airport and downtown for the business crowd), and I'm hopeful of the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions coming to pass. In my last post I was specifically thinking of odd-hour services.


As someone who has done business in Orlando, most meetings I have had have been in office parks outside of Orlando - not in the downtown area, so business travelers will likely need a rental car or a taxi and the airport is the place for both.


----------



## Anderson

jphjaxfl said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't doubt that the service as a whole will be a success of some sort (even if there will likely be a need for better transit links in ORL between the airport and downtown for the business crowd), and I'm hopeful of the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions coming to pass. In my last post I was specifically thinking of odd-hour services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't doubt that the service as a whole will be a success of some sort (even if there will likely be a need for better transit links in ORL between the airport and downtown for the business crowd), and I'm hopeful of the Tampa and Jacksonville extensions coming to pass. In my last post I was specifically thinking of odd-hour services.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As someone who has done business in Orlando, most meetings I have had have been in office parks outside of Orlando - not in the downtown area, so business travelers will likely need a rental car or a taxi and the airport is the place for both.
Click to expand...

1) You're quoting me twice. Is that your way of saying "You can say that again!"?

2) Ok, that's a fair point. How bad is the airport taxi surcharge? Or is that "just" to the resort hotels?


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## Brian_tampa

I have seen blogs and other sources talk about the Deseret Ranch (Morman church owned) possibly wanting to change the route of AAF into the Orlando airport. Here is an article from the Orlando Sentinel tonight reporting on just that possibility. The ranch wants the state to require AAF to go through more impact studies before construction begins. The ranch claims this is for "holistic, long term planning" purposes. But as we know, here in Florida that means "how can I make money from it", especially if the one requesting it is a major landowner along the route.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-miami-train-ranch-fight-20130510,0,2645576.story

At least FDOT appears to be supportive of AAF and their present plans. We need to send our comments into the US DOT for the EIS public comment period ending Tuesday supporting the present proposed route along the Beachline. The AAF website has a link to the DOT contact email address.


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## chrsjrcj

And here is the presentation shown at the meetings. It looks like the EIS won't be completed until April 2014, but it also notes that the WPB-Miami Environmental Assessment has already been completed (which we know). It says the draft EIS will be completed in September, and AAF has said they plan to start construction at the end of the year. I wonder if once the draft EIS is out, they'll began construction on the southern portion?

I really wish I could've attended one of those meetings.


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## Brian_tampa

chrsjrcj said:


> And here is the presentation shown at the meetings. It looks like the EIS won't be completed until April 2014, but it also notes that the WPB-Miami Environmental Assessment has already been completed (which we know). It says the draft EIS will be completed in September, and AAF has said they plan to start construction at the end of the year. I wonder if once the draft EIS is out, they'll began construction on the southern portion?
> I really wish I could've attended one of those meetings.


Today AAF announced an additional meeting on May 29th in Ft. Lauderdale. Hopefully you can attend, I wish I could but living over here in Tampa makes it kind of hard to get there on a weekday. Unfortunately, due to travel for work I was unable to make it to the Orlando meeting. Let us know if you go and learn anything from the AAF representatives there.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/AAF-Fort-Lauderdale-Public-Scoping-Meeting-notification-final.pdf


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## Brian_tampa

Brian_tampa said:


> I have seen blogs and other sources talk about the Deseret Ranch (Morman church owned) possibly wanting to change the route of AAF into the Orlando airport. Here is an article from the Orlando Sentinel tonight reporting on just that possibility. The ranch wants the state to require AAF to go through more impact studies before construction begins. The ranch claims this is for "holistic, long term planning" purposes. But as we know, here in Florida that means "how can I make money from it", especially if the one requesting it is a major landowner along the route. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-miami-train-ranch-fight-20130510,0,2645576.story]http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-miami-train-ranch-fight-20130510,0,2645576.story[/url]At least FDOT appears to be supportive of AAF and their present plans. We need to send our comments into the US DOT for the EIS public comment period ending Tuesday supporting the present proposed route along the Beachline. The AAF website has a link to the DOT contact email address.


Just saw a good article in the Orlando Business Journal tonight regarding the Deseret Ranch's demands with regard to AAF. Here is a link to the letter they sent to FDOT:
http://assets.bizjournals.com/orlando/pdf/13.pdf

They basically want AAF to promise to reserve a future station for them; provide for freight service to any future development on their land; change the route to be on their property (and not on the better route alongside the Beachline); and allow for future commuter rail on the route to Cocoa from Orlando. I believe AAF is already planning on designing for future expansion and new interchanges on the Beachline - so that point should be mute. The Deseret Ranch is in my opinion asking for the world - all for their benefit under the guise of being concerned about long term planning. IMO they are looking for a way to make money off of AAF and try to pressure AAF into agreeing to their demands by holding them hostage with threats of delaying the project. The commuter train to Cocoa is a good idea and one that AAF would probably allow, but the other demands are over the top.

Edit: here is the link to the OBJ article:

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2013/05/deseret-ranches-exec-pens-letter-to.html


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## afigg

Brian_tampa said:


> They basically want AAF to promise to reserve a future station for them; provide for freight service to any future development on their land; change the route to be on their property (and not on the better route alongside the Beachline); and allow for future commuter rail on the route to Cocoa from Orlando. I believe AAF is already planning on designing for future expansion and new interchanges on the Beachline - so that point should be mute. The Deseret Ranch is in my opinion asking for the world - all for their benefit under the guise of being concerned about long term planning.


Deseret Ranch is 300,000 acres. That is a lot of land. The owners obviously have big development plans for the property, which could include building a high density core town or city around SR 528 and a future passenger rail station. Not unreasonable to request that the design leave room for a 4 track corridor - 2 AAF, 2 for future commuter line and a space to build a station with platforms, maybe tracks for a freight yard, etc. They are not looking to stop or stall AAF, but to increase the value of their property.

Talk about a gift falling from the sky for the owners of Deseret Ranch. Florida had long term plans to build a rail line in the SR 528 corridor, but nothing might have happened with those plans for decades. Here comes AAF and the FEC looking to build a Miami to Orlando passenger line through their development property. Not decades from now, but by 2015. A deal will be made here. The Deseret Ranch backers might end up using their property as leverage for investing in AAF.


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## Anderson

Now _that's_ an interesting possibility (Deseret Ranch investing in AAF). If you want a parallel to Flagler's activities, that's almost spot on, since adding an average of $1000/acre to their land value would increase Deseret Ranch's value by $300m.

I don't think it's unreasonable for DR to want an accessible stop to their property, particularly if they want to seriously develop part of it in the medium-term. The most reasonable deal, IMHO, would be to request that a four-track path be left (which, considering the commuter rail plans, seems like good planning practice anyway), a convenient station site or two be put into the plan (AAF would only want/need one, but a commuter rail operation might be well-served by a second stop as part of a development plan) and that DR would pay for any costly re-routing they want. The freight request, so long as it isn't overly intrusive to the passenger operations, is also eminently reasonable since I think the consensus is that the FEC isn't going to _just_ be doing passenger ops with this.

One thing to remember: Requests like this are a negotiating position, not a final demand. Deseret Ranch is going to ask for the sun, moon, and stars even if all they want in the end are mining rights on Phobos. The deal is going to end up being more reasonable, probably involve Deseret Ranch investing in the project, and frankly even if they lose that money they still stand to make billions in the long run off of this.


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## Brian_tampa

I agree with afigg and Anderson that there will be a deal worked out between Deseret Ranches and AAF. My concern is that Deseret Ranches also wants to include the AAF project in a proposed pilot corridor study of a new transportation corridor between the Orlando airport and the southern space coast area (Melbourne perhaps?). If that were to happen, you can forget about AAF beginning construction anytime soon. Deseret Ranches would really like to see AAF routed through the middle of their southern properties - not along the Beachline tollroad. Having lived here in Florida for 15+ years, this state has precious little undeveloped land left. The proposed corridor would impact the headwaters of two major rivers along the central east coast of Florida. We do not need to see our water supply threatened even more than it has been damaged so far.

AAF is already working with the OOCEA to ensure that future expansion and interchanges can be accommodated. So I believe Anderson is correct, this is a negotiating position on the DR part. But for a new station to be planned for in the future for DR, then I would think that AAF would demand some compensation for that. The wildcard in all this is how strong of a legal position does the Deseret Ranches have in regards to the original contract (which of course only specified a highway, not railroad use) when they donated land 50 years ago to FDOT to build the Beachline tollroad?

Edit: according to the Lease Proposal document submitted by AAF back in December 2012, the new route is planned to accommodate 2 tracks only with only certain sections getting 2 tracks immediately and 2 short segments remaining single track at each end. Allowing for 4 tracks might not be possible due to the width of the ROW in places, unless of course the DR would donate more land.

Freight service option would open the project up to STB oversight - also causing more delays! I don't think anyone wants to go there right now at this point.


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## Brian_tampa

Interesting news out of Miami regarding a new convention center plus 58 story tall hotel next to AAF Miami station. It will be directly linked to the station.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/16/3401657_p2/massive-new-convention-center.html

From the Miami Herald article:

(The convention center plan was given additional impetus by Florida East Coasts plans to build a massive train station across the street for its planned All Aboard Florida rail service, which will connect downtown Miami to Orlando. The convention center and hotel would be linked directly to the train station and the Overtown Metrorail station through sky bridges, Nichols said.

Were tying all of it together. You will be able to flow through and around this (convention center) facility and right into the station, he said.)

Sounds like a good development right next door to AAF. Also planned is the Miami World Center which is a much bigger development nearby. That will include residential, commercial, and office development. Just imagine the potential traffic from just these projects alone!

http://www.miamiworldcenter.com/

Edit: in addition, a representative from AAF told me today that they were hopeful that they could announce the rolling stock provider soon. Also, that construction of infrastructure would begin at the end of the year on the south end between Miami and WPB. That would mean station construction and track work.

Edit#2: nice little promo video from developers of hotel/convention center. It shows a good view of how it is located in regards to AAF train station:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd-s-o9idR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## chrsjrcj

^ That's great news Brian! Unfortunately, I cannot attend the Fort Lauderdale meeting because I have night classes.

I was already pretty excited for the Miami station already, but the convention center news is very exciting, especially when you include AAF's own plans for hotel and retail. Wow. All this development with Metrorail, Metromover, AAF, Tri-Rail (hopefully), all meeting at the current Government Center Metrorail station. Hopefully this can serve as a model for other cities.

A little OT: but there is a subscriber only article on the Palm Beach Post website that talks about Tri-Rail on the FEC. Basically, a memorandum of understanding was signed this week with the Palm Beach MPO, Broward MPO, Miami-Dade MPO, Southeast Florida Transportation Council, South Florida RTA, Florida Department of Transportation, South Florida Regional Planning Council, and Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council. This means next month they'll be able to begin negotiations with AAF, to plan for commuter rail in addition to AAF on the FEC Railway.

Very exciting times for Florida!

ETA: Only half up the agencies have voted on the memorandum of understanding. The Treasure Coast RPC votes tomorrow morning, and the rest voting before the end of May.


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## Anderson

Even if they don't make much above and beyond "actual expenses" on the Tri-Rail deal, I suspect that operation will be a winner for the FEC folks, since:
(1) It will allow them to disburse some AAF-related expenses onto the commuter rail account.

(2) They'll get track access fees from the commuter operations.

(3) The added traffic will enhance the value of dual-service (i.e. AAF+TriRail) stations.

(4) There may be additional station development opportunities which arise as a result of the commuter operations.

Also, on Deseret Ranch, here are my thoughts on their requests and what they are likely to actually get:
(1) A station/stop. Yes, they will get this, though it will likely be a "second phase" station that goes in with a Cocoa station.

(2) Additional tracks for commuter operations. This seems likely (even if it is "only" some limited third-track additions plus stations. My guess is you'll get a rather complicated deal, with DR offering up the land in exchange for the station(s) and some sort of stopping frequency guarantee, potentially plus investment in AAF.

(3) A re-route. Not likely. Moving the line between Orlando and Cocoa slightly is plausible, but nothing significant seems likely to happen beyond a tweak or two on this front.

(4) Freight service. Will happen, though not immediately. My guess is that they agree to work something out once the passenger operations are running so as not to screw up the project that's in process. Here, the worst case for DR would be that an extra track goes into place to act as a freight spur as part of a deal. FEC is going to want freight service on the line eventually, so this seems like a "gimme" in some form with details TBD.

Also of note: Any commuter operations along the line raise the possibility of extension(s) of service past Orlando Airport and into other areas of Orlando. This possibility is going to be interesting to see play out.

Finally: It seems like the FEC service is slowly moving towards some sort of mixed express-and-commuter operation: Tri-Rail on the southern end, possible Orlando-Cocoa service on the (current) northern end, and there have been proposals to run a JAX-St. Augustine service in the past that AAF is a plausible catalyst for. Something running Orlando-Tampa seems possible at some point as well. I'm wondering how far these networks might end up reaching out, given a decade or two (not to mention their potential additive value to any related development).


----------



## Brian_tampa

It was just confirmed to me this morning that the OOCEA Right of Way Committee unanimously approved the AAF Lease Agreement for constructing tracks along the Beachline Expressway in their monthly meeting yesterday. So the AAF project has passed another hurdle and it would appear that the Deseret Ranch issue has been put to rest. Good news indeed!


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## jis

Brian, I have not been keeping track of this as well as you. How is the EIS coming along? I presume they will need one to get a RRIF loan? Also not sure what Florida law requires in that area.

Even though they are substantially using the Beach Line RoW, there would appear to be some amount of wetland mitigation involved specially where it crosses the marshy river area, no?

Just wondering aloud. As I said, not been following this too closely.

Thanks.


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## chrsjrcj

Brian_tampa said:


> It was just confirmed to me this morning that the OOCEA Right of Way Committee unanimously approved the AAF Lease Agreement for constructing tracks along the Beachline Expressway in their monthly meeting yesterday. So the AAF project has passed another hurdle and it would appear that the Deseret Ranch issue has been put to rest. Good news indeed!


Great news!


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Brian, I have not been keeping track of this as well as you. How is the EIS coming along? I presume they will need one to get a RRIF loan? Also not sure what Florida law requires in that area.
> Even though they are substantially using the Beach Line RoW, there would appear to be some amount of wetland mitigation involved specially where it crosses the marshy river area, no?
> 
> Just wondering aloud. As I said, not been following this too closely.
> 
> Thanks.


On the AAF website they show the EIS schedule as recommending a preferred alternative by Setpember 2013 and a record of decision by April 2014. I have not heard any update on the EIS progress. It is still pretty early in the process.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/AAF-Public-Scoping-Presentation-DualScreen-FINAL.pdf

As far as mitigation efforts, it shouldn't be much more than what developers go through here to build a mall or subdivision - probably easier due to the proposed route already having been impacted 50 years ago when they built the Beachline Expressway (as all AAF work should be within the ROW). State DEP permits and local permits - nothing special required, I can't see why not. But FDOT and the other state agencies (as well as the US Army Corps of Engineers) have already publicly stated their support and willingness to 'fast track' the permitting process.

As far as I can tell, the FONSI (finding of no significant environmental impact) that AAF received from the FRA back in January for Miami-WPB segment is all they need to apply for a RRIF loan that would be used for that section. Since AAF has not disclosed any details for the loan they applied for, I would assume any current RRIF loan application would be only for the Miami-WPB segment. I might be wrong, but the EIS or FONSI must be in place before applying for an RRIF loan. So if AAF wanted to apply for a loan for the Cocoa-Orlando section, a separate EA/EIS with a record of decision would be needed as part of the loan application. But RRIF loans are a long process as DesertXpress knows all too well (AAF will probably not apply for any other RRIF loans as the EIS will not be complete until next April!). I assume AAF went for the MIA-WPB section for the loan as they knew it had the least environmental impacts and would result in the quickest turn around to apply for a RRIF loan.


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## Brian_tampa

Here is a link to an article appearing tonight in the Orlando Sentinel regarding the AAF lease agreement with OOCEA.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-train-expressway-deal-20130614,0,4921090.story

It is funny because the reporter, Dan Tracy, is the guy who tried to stir stuff up back in April (here) by saying that the OOCEA "was fretting" about possible concerns with AAF leasing their ROW. See alternate article here about the "dispute". Oh well, I guess things _DO_ get worked out in the end! Good news for AAF. The OOCEA Board meeting comes up soon. Hopefully they will approve this agreement at the June meeting. Next up will be obtaining the rolling stock and choosing an operator.


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## Bus Nut

I don't know, Anderson, but I would guess that part of that cost would be the cost of the acquisition of right of way. I think a quick review of other states' projects would be in order. Either in terms of payments made to Class 1's and/or complete acquisition costs. And then look at rebuilding costs for lines that were in poor shape when acquired. Some states do acquire lines that are not worth much in terms of freight value, but other states have no choice but to seek a lease or time-limited access to freight mainlines and must pay accordingly.

Does that $400mill figure from Orlando to Tampa include ROW? If the ROW is public, does it include the costs to move highway lanes?



Anderson said:


> Another thing that has me scratching my head a bit: This project is going to cost $1 billion, which I love. But if this can be done for $1 billion and (per my dinner with Daniel Lyons) Orlampa could probably be done for $400 million at 125 MPH for only a 15-minute loss, that gives a total cost of Tampa-Orlando-Miami of $1.4 billion or so. IIRC, the HSR project was supposed to run something like $10 billion for the same general route. What was the TPA-MIA travel time for that project (or, in other words, what were we going to pay $9 billion for)?


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## Bus Nut

jis said:


> Unless the highway situation gets much much worse, it is unlikely that my friends in Melbourne would give up on driving to Orlando and opt for the train, except occasionally to just ride the trains. What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?


Imma just drop this right here..

www.golynx.com

www.sunrail.com

Lynx runs buses from Lynx Center 24/7 to the Airport and to Disney Transportation Ctr. From Disney Transportation Ctr you can catch a bus to any of the parks or resorts. Presumably Universal is just as accessible by public transportation.


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## pennyk

Bus Nut said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the highway situation gets much much worse, it is unlikely that my friends in Melbourne would give up on driving to Orlando and opt for the train, except occasionally to just ride the trains. What will they do once they get to Orlando with the minimal local public transport options available?
> 
> 
> 
> Imma just drop this right here..
> 
> www.golynx.com
> 
> www.sunrail.com
> 
> Lynx runs buses from Lynx Center 24/7 to the Airport and to Disney Transportation Ctr. From Disney Transportation Ctr you can catch a bus to any of the parks or resorts. Presumably Universal is just as accessible by public transportation.
Click to expand...

Although I sometimes take a Lynx bus to/from the Amtrak station, getting around the Orlando area by Lynx is not a simple task. Many buses only run once an hour.


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## Bus Nut

But this is ridiculous. Because FEC is private, not public, they can bypass the normal public process giving all of the intermediate communities no leverage to demand stops and so on which you would have with a public operator. That could be good or bad--FEC is "skimming the cream" of profitable service and skipping unprofitable service which will probably be provided by the public operator (although we haven't gotten to that point). It seems like most Americans are happy with this arrangement, so it's the choice we've made. Fine. But now this private property owner is threatening very costly legal entanglements to blackmail FEC into providing them what established communities cannot get.

What happens if the state gets tired of their antics and starts eminent domain proceedings on the ROW?



afigg said:


> Deseret Ranch is 300,000 acres. That is a lot of land. The owners obviously have big development plans for the property, which could include building a high density core town or city around SR 528 and a future passenger rail station. Not unreasonable to request that the design leave room for a 4 track corridor - 2 AAF, 2 for future commuter line and a space to build a station with platforms, maybe tracks for a freight yard, etc. They are not looking to stop or stall AAF, but to increase the value of their property.


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## Bus Nut

Okay, never mind my last comment. It was dumb.

Penny, you're right--Lynx could run more frequently. The region seems poised to start investing more in mass transit going forward. Gas tax is not sustainable to fund transit operations going forward. I'm just addressing the myth that just because Orlando doesn't have a subway, there's no transit to speak of.


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## jis

The thought about subway did not occur to me. My point was and still stands is that Orlando does not have convenient usable local transit.

(null)


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> The thought about subway did not occur to me. My point was and still stands is that Orlando does not have convenient usable local transit.
> (null)


I believe that AAF is looking more for tourist and business travel. This would imply that passengers would either be going to one of the theme parks in Orlando (Disney, Universal, or Sea World) or to a meeting at a local business or the massive convention center (also served by shuttle bus from the airport). To my knowledge all three parks have very good service to and from the Orlando airport via private shuttle bus. The business traveller will rent a car at the airport no matter if by plane or train. Now I do get the point that if you are going from Miami to Orlando for pleasure, it might be easier to drive a private vehicle. But alot of businesses will be okay with the idea of using the AAF train as a substitute for a plane (or a personal car for that matter - IRS rates are 56 cents a mile I think). Even AAF admits it will take at least 3 years (in their presentation documents) before it can establish a good baseline for passenger numbers and acceptance. Look for AAF to heavily court the international and cruise passenger trips. That is where they will make their money initially.


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## Brian_tampa

Bus Nut said:


> But this is ridiculous. Because FEC is private, not public, they can bypass the normal public process giving all of the intermediate communities no leverage to demand stops and so on which you would have with a public operator. That could be good or bad--FEC is "skimming the cream" of profitable service and skipping unprofitable service which will probably be provided by the public operator (although we haven't gotten to that point). It seems like most Americans are happy with this arrangement, so it's the choice we've made. Fine. But now this private property owner is threatening very costly legal entanglements to blackmail FEC into providing them what established communities cannot get.
> 
> What happens if the state gets tired of their antics and starts eminent domain proceedings on the ROW?
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Deseret Ranch is 300,000 acres. That is a lot of land. The owners obviously have big development plans for the property, which could include building a high density core town or city around SR 528 and a future passenger rail station. Not unreasonable to request that the design leave room for a 4 track corridor - 2 AAF, 2 for future commuter line and a space to build a station with platforms, maybe tracks for a freight yard, etc. They are not looking to stop or stall AAF, but to increase the value of their property.
Click to expand...

With the announcement yesterday that the OOCEA ROW committee approved a lease, that strongly implies that all affected parties (including Deseret Ranches) are on board with the tentative agreement. All that is left is for the OOCEA Board to approve the lease agreement. The FDOT has been working behind the scenes with AAF to make this happen. FDOT is a strong supporter of intercity passenger rail here in Florida. It is just that our govenor is bit behind the times with what the average Floridian wants (except for the rural vote in northern Florida and the panhandle!). The last hurdles to clear will be the FAA negotiations on the runway obstruction issue (AAF tracks and the height of the trains lie within the hazard area defined in FAA regulations). The GOAA (airport authority) has been working with the FAA since December to negotiate a compromise on this issue. Another issue will be the GOAA versus the airlines in landing fee increases to pay for the parking garage and other improvements associated with the new AAF station at the airport. The station will be paid for by AAF along with a new maintenance facility for AAF trains to be located on the airport property. But the GOAA can unilaterally impose a fee increase as has been done at other airports - I doubt that any airline would pull out of the Orlando market over this minor issue!


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## Anderson

My guess is that once the service is up and running, if a locale is willing to spring for a station, it's possible that the FEC might end up running a few trains with different stopping patterns each day. I could see one morning train, one midday train, and one afternoon train making an additional stop or two...and it seems likely that Cocoa will get a stop eventually, even if primarily as a transfer for folks going from Orlando to Jacksonville.*

*Or elsewhere along that line...not to mention if Tampa gets service...


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## Brian_tampa

The proposed lease agreement between AAF and the OOCEA is on the OOCEA website to review. Highlights include:

AAF tracks to be located in the northern portion of the new property (100 ft linear strip on the south side of the highway) that the OOCEA is buying from the Deseret Ranches.

No freight service to be allowed unless approved by OOCEA.

Railroad to be designed and constructed to allow for freight operations, however.

No commuter service - between two points in any county.

Tracks must be maintained to a minimum of FRA Class 6 standards.

No other intercity service will be allowed on OOCEA property.

Any additional stations added north of Palm Beach County or west of Orlando must be approved by the OOCEA (traffic diversion studies to determine impact on tolls).

The Board will meet on June 26th to approve this item on their agenda.

https://www.oocea.com/Portals/0/2013%20board%20meetings/June%2026/AAF%20Lease%20Agr.pdf


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## Anderson

I find myself wishing insolvency and liquidation on OOCEA.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> I find myself wishing insolvency and liquidation on OOCEA.


Not sure why you feel that way? IMHO it seems that the OOCEA is working hard to support the AAF project. Of course, with all the legal mumbo jumbo in the lease, the OOCEA has to protect its own interests. But they are also protecting the interests of AAF by preventing any other operator coming in and using the ROW. Also, they are attempting to purchase a strip of land specifically to give AAF more room. From the original lease proposal that AAF submitted in December, AAF said they needed certain additional sections of land to guarantee that they could operate at maximum speed. Additionally, it is my impression that OOCEA and FDOT were instrumental in fighting off the Deseret Ranches demands for more studies and potential delays to the project.

I am not sure what to make of the section on page 4 that reads:

"It is understood and agreed that the passenger rail service may be expanded to other destinations beyond the current destinations during the Term of this Agreement and/or additional stops or depots may be added, but, prior to including any additional stops or depots between Orlando International Airport and West Palm Beach, Florida or any expansion west of Orlando International Airport, AAF shall satisfy the following conditions precedent thereto: (i) AAF shall provide the Authority with a reasonably detailed description of the proposed expansion and/or additional stops or depots together with associated internal and consultant studies and reports pertaining to ridership and diverted trips along State Road 528"

Why is there no mention made of stations added NORTH of Cocoa? Conceivably, trains would travel between Orlando and points north to Jacksonville if expansion were to go that way. Also, not many people from Tampa goto WPB or even Ft Pierce via the Beachline! Just speculation, but does this imply anything about where AAF plans to expand next? I have no knowledge of this so take it for what it is worth....


----------



## Anderson

My frustration is based around three points:
(1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;

(2) The bar on freight services; and

(3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.

As to stations north of Cocoa being ignored, my suspicion is that OOCEA probably doesn't expect there to be many diverted trips on such a route, even if the traffic was coming from Orlando (that traffic would likely go to I-4, not the Beeline), with the possible exception of to/from Cocoa traffic (which would be covered under this agreement).

The other possibility is that while AAF has to tender the impact reports, it is strictly a consultative process...basically, AAF has to give them information, but may not have much power to stop certain expansions. If that paragraph is the extent of the material on the matter (which it may not be), that would be my read. "You must give me information" does not mean "I can do anything with that information

As to "protecting" AAF from competition, that's a mixed bag, since it would presumably bar Amtrak operation on that corridor (something that I could see coming to pass at some point).


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> My frustration is based around three points1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;
> 
> (2) The bar on freight services; and
> 
> (3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.
> 
> As to stations north of Cocoa being ignored, my suspicion is that OOCEA probably doesn't expect there to be many diverted trips on such a route, even if the traffic was coming from Orlando (that traffic would likely go to I-4, not the Beeline), with the possible exception of to/from Cocoa traffic (which would be covered under this agreement).
> 
> The other possibility is that while AAF has to tender the impact reports, it is strictly a consultative process...basically, AAF has to give them information, but may not have much power to stop certain expansions. If that paragraph is the extent of the material on the matter (which it may not be), that would be my read. "You must give me information" does not mean "I can do anything with that information
> 
> As to "protecting" AAF from competition, that's a mixed bag, since it would presumably bar Amtrak operation on that corridor (something that I could see coming to pass at some point).


My thinking:
The commuter service ban applies only to that service operated over OOCEA property

"AAF shall not use the Property to provide freight transportation services or for commuter rail services (which for purposes of this Agreement shall mean passenger rail service between points within a single county)."

The word property in the quote above is legaleze referencing only OOCEA ROW. Not the whole AAF route.

I assume they don't want freight due to additional liabilities in case of accidents,etc... That one was a strange one to me as well.

As far as Tampa expansion, it appears that even if there is traffic diversion (which I really doubt will be much) then AAF can pay the difference as part of their rent agreement. See last sentence on page 4. Yes AAF has to supply the impact analysis and then OOCEA has to review and approve them. Then they come to an agreement, just like they did with this agreement. It was not said but implied that there is a rent payment from AAF to the OOCEA for this section to compensate OOCEA for lost toll revenue.

The idea of Amtrak running on new AAF tracks is interesting - highly doubtful as that would be like Walmart letting target open a grocery section inside a Walmart building! That is meant to protect AAF's investment in this route. This is a private venture and is profit motivated, unlike all other passenger rail operators in the USA presently (at least major operators, there may be small routes I am not aware of).

Edit: OOCEA ROW ends near the toll plaza at the airport. Any route west appears to use the proposed path that the aborted HSR project to Tampa was going to use. Meaning, FDOT owned land only. So any commuter stops (at disney and I-Drive for instance) would be allowed. Also, if you look at the GOAA airport board meeting presentation (an attachment in pdf) from this month, the location of the maintenance facility for AAF is to be located exactly where the aborted HSR shops would have been. So obviously, the airport is guiding the route thru to the west side on its own preferred route. AAF will have to follow that path. See page 5 "rail routes into OIA" on this link:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20130619_Presentation.pdf


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## Anderson

I'm not sure there's an inherent conflict between Amtrak on the route and AAF on the route, particularly if Amtrak were to run discharge-only Orlando-Tampa, and I don't think Amtrak would run anything MIA-ORL-TPA. However, Amtrak ultimately ditching the A-Line in favor of the FEC seems viable (they'd lose Palatka, Deland, and Winter Park...but likely add St. Augustine, Daytona, and so forth). Even if they went FEC to Cocoa and Orlando, and then went back to the A-line to get the train to Miami, it would be so horridly uncompetitive in terms of time that it's not even funny (not to mention that AAF is likely to gut Amtrak ORL-MIA anyway).

Edit: Page five explains this. The commuter rail connection in conjunction with this would allow through operation there (not to mention that the addition of that connection seems to immediately expand the AAF catchment area _massively_). That connection could also render losing WPK in the situation above totally moot, as you'd still have a connection to there and downtown via SunRail.


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## jis

It is starting to sound like this will just be a glorified people mover system for airports and theme parks. 

After experiencing the universal cross usability of services and many cases tickets around Berlin in Germany, this last week, I am truly distressed to learn of the direction that this passenger rail effort in FL is taking.


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## Anderson

Well, it's basically becoming a private-sector version of the bullet train. Mind you, the plans have a commuter rail connection between the airport and downtown going in, so it seems like _that_ particular concern is going to be dealt with...and of course, the Miami station is downtown. To the extent that OOCEA is responsible for this project losing flexibility on several fronts, however...score yet another frak-up of passenger rail by a government agency. The one saving grace may well be SunRail connecting to this.


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## Brian_tampa

One thing that must be remember, as Anderson alluded to in his last post, is that this is a private sector project. From the beginning AAF never said that their plans would include operating commuter service or allowing through ticketing with other rail services - meaning Amtrak, specifically. This was due to the requirements for obtaining exemption from the STB oversight. If the STB had gotten involved, then it is highly likely several years delay would have been seen and possibly AAF would have decided the additional costs associated with more government reviews and studies would not be worth it.

AAF is strictly an inter-city passenger carrier. If local governments introduce their own services, such as TriRail seems to be planning for in south Florida, AAF says they will accommodate them.


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## VentureForth

I don't understand the facination of connecting airports to each other with a train. Trains should be run into city centers and then commuter trains radiate from there, connectors to airports, local busses from the commuter trains to neighborhoods, etc.

If you're gonna have to drive far to get to a train, why not drive all the way?

If you're gonna fly to Orlando to take the train to Miami, why not fly to Miami?

I doubt seriously that the majority of the ridership that they are looking into getting will be interested in going from Miami (not at an airport) to MCO! They want to go to Orlando, and if there is nothing getting them from the terminus at the airport to Sunrail or other ground transportation (who wants to spend $50 on a cab after spending $100 to get within 20 minutes of where you want to go), the service will be a BUST.


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## Anderson

The answer is that in Miami, there's now a metro connection to the airport. In Orlando, there's a good airport hotel (the Hyatt), lots of nearby hotels, and they're planning a commuter rail connection. Given the alternative of trying to knock a rail line into downtown, which would likely be expensive and add trip time, it makes sense if you can avoid that and use an existing transportation hub.

It also doesn't likely hurt that both Miami and Orlando are horrendously spread out, and especially in the latter case you have three disparate likely destinations for visitors (Disney, Universal, and downtown).

Edit: VentureForth, there's a planned SunRail connection to MCO in the latest round of plans, estimated for 2015. I wouldn't be surprised if AAF was helping with that somehow.


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## chrsjrcj

The main Orlando destinations are the theme parks. There probably will be some type of rail connection between OIA, the convention center/I-Drive, and Disney....it might be an extension of AAF, light rail, or maglev. AAF's main market demographic has always been tourist that go to Disney, and may want to travel south to Miami. The original Florida High Speed Rail project would have also been from the Orlando Airport, but would have then gone to Miami Airport(!).

I also believe AAF will have a market for local West Palm-Fort Lauderdale-Miami business travel (think Acela Express). About a one hour travel time between the three downtowns will actually be faster than driving, especially durring rush hour.


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## Anderson

True, and you do raise another frustrating point on AAF's agreement: There are a string of cities that were in the tentative Amtrak-FEC service schedule and/or that are of substantial size that would make sense (even if they only got 4-6 trains/day) such as Melbourne, Vero, Port St. Lucie, etc. Trains running along this line to Miami would probably get a reasonable amount of business (and let's face it...even if they collectively only generated another 250k round trips, that's probably still $20-30m/yr before station development comes into the picture). They'll never be the main market, but I suspect that the added business on a few "local" trains would make up for business on the "non-local" trains that would migrate to other times...not to mention that you could run peak-hour trains as expresses and nudge those stops to the shoulder hour trains (which they'd be better-timed for).

In an ideal world, you'd get either SunRail or the FEC service extended at least as far as Disney (and frankly, get Disney to interface either the monorail or something else with it to allow a seamless transition as far as is possible) via I-Drive and simply drop the bus services from the airport. And I think that's possible if Disney does what they offered to do with the Orlampa project.

Edit: Perhaps my biggest bone with all of this is that OOCEA is a government entity. It's not a private corporation. It's board is subject to gubernatorial appointment. Yes, it has bond obligations, but it's also got a _lot_ more than the Beeline in its system, and the Beeline has been operating for decades (and so probably should be paid off by now). It is no less of an entrenched concern than, say, Southwest in Texas or Delta in Atlanta...and in a sense it is worse because it's now the government actively tying the hands of a company wanting to put in a common carrier route (which I understand these tracks to be, absent covenants to the contrary).

To put it another way, if it was OOCEA wanting to use eminent domain drop a freight-oriented highway within disused ROW next to the FEC, would anybody be batting an eye?


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## Bus Nut

I didn't quote it all, but thanks for all the detailed info, Brian.



Brian_tampa said:


> It is just that our govenor is bit behind the times with what the average Floridian wants (except for the rural vote in northern Florida and the panhandle!).


Sour grapes. But my feeling from the people I've talked to is that even people who don't live right near the proposed route are all for it. Scott canceled Orlando-Tampa on advice from some boosters/donors who were close to him, not out of any political calculation. (Had he been making a political calculation, given voter sentiment, he almost certainly would not have made the same decision.) It may be that Scott's friends were stuck in that old highway-vs-rail zero sum game mindset. Most people have figured out that it's no fun hitting a highway full of commuters who shoulda taken the train!



Brian_tampa said:


> But the GOAA can unilaterally impose a fee increase as has been done at other airports - I doubt that any airline would pull out of the Orlando market over this minor issue!


Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I've read there is resistance among the airlines to finance the building of another terminal. (GOAA swears they NEED it but I feel that the issue is highly politicized, what with elected officials, developers, boosters having something of a cargo cult mentality about big projects, that they will somehow cause the big crowds to come if they build the capacity.) They also don't like the plan to build another parking garage.

I've been in there many times lately and other than the jam-up at security it does seem like the existing terminals have unused capacity. It's not totally clear what the future of air travel will be but it is clear that regional flights (intraflorida) have struggled to make a profit. Dayjet (I believe?) went under. Now there is a new regional carrier using prop planes (which travel at slower speeds but use less fuel). But I think the majors would prefer to be well clear of such a risky business and happy to feed travellers from plane to HSR or vice versa.

From the statements I've read lately it seems like the majority of air carriers feel that they will do better partnered with American-style HSR, allowing them to hit a profit sweet spot and slough off the unprofitable short hops, than without it. This is a big contrast to their attitude in the 80s and 90s. (Which was "KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!")


----------



## Bus Nut

Anderson said:


> My frustration is based around three points1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;
> 
> (2) The bar on freight services; and
> 
> (3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.


I don't see this as a bar. What it says is that at each step they'll have to go back to the table. FEC clearly wants to keep the option open to run freights, but they'll probably have to negotiate with OOCEA about volume and such. (OOCEA may want to restrict hazmats, for example.) On the other side, there will probably be calls for locals on the line and FEC will have the right to negotiate that. Both of these stipulations protect the HSR service from being unduly encroached by other uses.

Look at NEC. It runs freight as well, time limited to when few passenger movements are occurring. Great. But due to ownership and legacy agreements, Acela service suffers where it runs up against regional rail needs. I'm sure that the Florida stakeholders don't want to see something like that happen on this line.

OOCEA can run a study on toll impacts but ultimately if Tampa wants an extension and all the parties can find the political will and money, it's going to happen. They're just protecting their interests when it happens so they don't end up in a quandary with regards to funding maintenance and security and everything that the tolls pay for (assuming it's structured that way).

As for intentions, I could see Tampa messing this up royally but overall the need for Orlando-Tampa HSR to me is greater than any sort of enhancements between Jacksonville and, well, anywhere, and furthermore, Tampa wants to be a world class city whereas Jacksonville is held back by negative attitudes that try to tear down any kind of civic improvement. The only way Jax gets HSR first is if some Jax politicians get powerful seats in Tallahassee (oops, the Jax based Lt. Gov. resigned a few months ago) or if the business community there suddenly starts to feel left out and just has to have a quicker trip to Miami now now now. And there's always the possibility of a public/Amtrak project on that corridor, maybe after a couple of House election cycles. JMHO.


----------



## Bus Nut

Apparently there is a private RR in Maine that runs excursion trains from Brunswick to Rockland, and frequently enough during the "season" that the citizens' rail advocacy group identified the operation as part of the statewide rail transportation that includes the publicly funded and operated Amtrak Downeaster, which finally extended to Brunswick last year. It isn't HSR, but from what I understand the RR is in it to make money. I think there's a Railroad.net forum devoted to it.



Brian_tampa said:


> The idea of Amtrak running on new AAF tracks is interesting - highly doubtful as that would be like Walmart letting target open a grocery section inside a Walmart building! That is meant to protect AAF's investment in this route. This is a private venture and is profit motivated, unlike all other passenger rail operators in the USA presently (at least major operators, there may be small routes I am not aware of).


----------



## Bus Nut

Anderson said:


> In an ideal world, you'd get either SunRail or the FEC service extended at least as far as Disney (and frankly, get Disney to interface either the monorail or something else with it to allow a seamless transition as far as is possible) via I-Drive and simply drop the bus services from the airport.


FTA regulated rail transportation only for me, please. The monorail was an unregulated roll-your-own railroad deal. Like roll-your-own-Linux, there may have been a few oversights in design, a few trade-offs made that don't seem so hot in retrospect. I know that the FTA LRV regs have some issues but the positives well outweigh the negatives.

Also, buyer beware--Disney is making a hash of Anaheim's rail projects and it's really kind of sad how it all went down.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Bus Nut said:


> I didn't quote it all, but thanks for all the detailed info, Brian.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is just that our govenor is bit behind the times with what the average Floridian wants (except for the rural vote in northern Florida and the panhandle!).
> 
> 
> 
> Sour grapes. But my feeling from the people I've talked to is that even people who don't live right near the proposed route are all for it. Scott canceled Orlando-Tampa on advice from some boosters/donors who were close to him, not out of any political calculation. (Had he been making a political calculation, given voter sentiment, he almost certainly would not have made the same decision.) It may be that Scott's friends were stuck in that old highway-vs-rail zero sum game mindset. Most people have figured out that it's no fun hitting a highway full of commuters who shoulda taken the train!
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the GOAA can unilaterally impose a fee increase as has been done at other airports - I doubt that any airline would pull out of the Orlando market over this minor issue!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I've read there is resistance among the airlines to finance the building of another terminal. (GOAA swears they NEED it but I feel that the issue is highly politicized, what with elected officials, developers, boosters having something of a cargo cult mentality about big projects, that they will somehow cause the big crowds to come if they build the capacity.) They also don't like the plan to build another parking garage.
> 
> I've been in there many times lately and other than the jam-up at security it does seem like the existing terminals have unused capacity. It's not totally clear what the future of air travel will be but it is clear that regional flights (intraflorida) have struggled to make a profit. Dayjet (I believe?) went under. Now there is a new regional carrier using prop planes (which travel at slower speeds but use less fuel). But I think the majors would prefer to be well clear of such a risky business and happy to feed travellers from plane to HSR or vice versa.
> 
> From the statements I've read lately it seems like the majority of air carriers feel that they will do better partnered with American-style HSR, allowing them to hit a profit sweet spot and slough off the unprofitable short hops, than without it. This is a big contrast to their attitude in the 80s and 90s. (Which was "KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!")
Click to expand...

I hope this reply goes through!

From what I have read, the GOAA wants the new South Terminal only for the expansion of future international flights (and create a new international only terminal??). I have flown from Orlando to international destinations and trust me - the customs and immigration areas are a cluster f**k! However, since the GOAA recently withdrew plans for the terminal, they have continued to plan for the intermodal station and the parking garage with its tram station connection to the north terminal. The airlines still oppose this as they see the intermodal station as a backdoor way of keeping the much more expensive South Terminal project alive. Another factor is that the leadership of the GOAA has for many years wanted to create an intermodal terminal that includes some sort of inter-city rail service. They really want to become the transportation hub for central Florida, and maybe intrude into Miami's turf!

You are correct, intra-Florida air travel is becoming less common. I believe SWA recently announced their withdrawal from MCO to WPB/FLL service all together beginning later this year. I only fly to points within Florida because I have to get somewhere else (like thru the American hub in Miami for most all Carribean flights).


----------



## Brian_tampa

Bus Nut said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My frustration is based around three points:
> 
> (1) The bar on commuter services (does that apply to operations further south...i.e. Banning Tri-Rail on the FEC?), which could potentially impact station location within the Orlando metro area (i.e. I-Drive/Convention Center, Disney, etc.) in the long term;
> 
> (2) The bar on freight services; and
> 
> (3) The potential for OOCEA to bar the Tampa expansion.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a bar. What it says is that at each step they'll have to go back to the table. FEC clearly wants to keep the option open to run freights, but they'll probably have to negotiate with OOCEA about volume and such. (OOCEA may want to restrict hazmats, for example.) On the other side, there will probably be calls for locals on the line and FEC will have the right to negotiate that. Both of these stipulations protect the HSR service from being unduly encroached by other uses.
> 
> Look at NEC. It runs freight as well, time limited to when few passenger movements are occurring. Great. But due to ownership and legacy agreements, Acela service suffers where it runs up against regional rail needs. I'm sure that the Florida stakeholders don't want to see something like that happen on this line.
> 
> OOCEA can run a study on toll impacts but ultimately if Tampa wants an extension and all the parties can find the political will and money, it's going to happen. They're just protecting their interests when it happens so they don't end up in a quandary with regards to funding maintenance and security and everything that the tolls pay for (assuming it's structured that way).
> 
> As for intentions, I could see Tampa messing this up royally but overall the need for Orlando-Tampa HSR to me is greater than any sort of enhancements between Jacksonville and, well, anywhere, and furthermore, Tampa wants to be a world class city whereas Jacksonville is held back by negative attitudes that try to tear down any kind of civic improvement. The only way Jax gets HSR first is if some Jax politicians get powerful seats in Tallahassee (oops, the Jax based Lt. Gov. resigned a few months ago) or if the business community there suddenly starts to feel left out and just has to have a quicker trip to Miami now now now. And there's always the possibility of a public/Amtrak project on that corridor, maybe after a couple of House election cycles. JMHO.
Click to expand...

In response:Also, in regards to the OOCEA agreement where it bars commuter service to any two points in a single county. Well if you look at a map, the only place that AAF will use OOCEA ROW and be bound by this part of the agreement is effectively across Deseret Ranches property! It makes me wonder if AAF put that in the lease in order to prevent Deseret from trying to use the new railroad for their own purposes? I believe you are correct in that AAF is probably wanting to ensure that their trains do not become slowed down by too many future users. Just because it is in the lease and it says OOCEA will not permit it does not always mean that it was OOCEA's idea. The lease is a two way agreement to be used by both parties for their own reasons.

Edit: now that I think about it more, the OOCEA has alot to lose by allowing a parallel transit option to any future Deseret Ranches development along the Beachline. So most likely they put that restriction in the lease agreement.

Same thing for the freight use issue. If the OOCEA wants to prevent it, why does the lease also stipulate that the track must be built for freight? Sounds like one of the lease agreement parties added the design specification part in order to allow for possible future freight use.

I agree that the city of Tampa (or Hillsborough County government more likely) could put up road blocks. Hopefully, AAF has enough political and business (meaning developer) connections to overcome that in the future. Or maybe Tampa will provide incentives like you mention, in order to make it happen. I think that AAF has seen the ridership studies that were done previously for the aborted HSR project and understands its potential. Back in 2010, several foreign companies wanted to bid on the rights to build and operate just the Orlando to Tampa section. So obviously there is good potential traffic for AAF to look at when expanding west to Tampa.

Look for Disney to be a real player in all of this as well. Remember that several AAF executives have worked for Disney in their careers. I would not be surprised if Disney does become financially involved in some way, perhaps by building their own station at their resort? But all of that is at least 5 years down the road and only if the MIA-ORL section is successful.

Edit: does anyone know of any ridership studies done for the Jacksonville to Miami or Orlando markets? I am only aware of studies done for MIA-ORL-TPA for previous HSR efforts.


----------



## chrsjrcj

This is the last passenger rail plan (that I'm aware of) by FDOT: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

For something similar to AAF, look at page 11. Though hardly as many trains as AAF wants to run, it was projected that after a two year ramp up period, the line would carry 2 million passengers. Note that the number includes Miami to Orlando and Miami to Jacksonville.


----------



## Anderson

Jacksonville has generally been omitted from studies like this, though I'm not sure why it has been so ignored. I know Tampa-Orlando-Miami was designated as the corridor, but the ommission of Jacksonville-Miami/Orlando was always a bit odd, even as a secondary point. That said, it's something of a "target of opportunity" for the FEC.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Brian_tampa said:


> Also, in regards to the OOCEA agreement where it bars commuter service to any two points in a single county. Well if you look at a map, the only place that AAF will use OOCEA ROW and be bound by this part of the agreement is effectively across Deseret Ranches property! It makes me wonder if AAF put that in the lease in order to prevent Deseret from trying to use the new railroad for their own purposes?


My thought too.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> It is starting to sound like this will just be a glorified people mover system for airports and theme parks.
> After experiencing the universal cross usability of services and many cases tickets around Berlin in Germany, this last week, I am truly distressed to learn of the direction that this passenger rail effort in FL is taking.


But the fearless leader of the U.S. House's Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials, Rep. Denham, will go to Florida and look at the AAF project as part of the reauthorization of Amtrak.

From Politico:



> T&I railroads Chairman Jeff Denham and his staff are "just starting to put language together" for the Amtrak bill that's due before October, he told MT, adding that the legislation is "definitely on track" for this summer. His panel will hold at least two more field hearings, including one in Florida to look at All Aboard Florida, a Miami-to-Orlando high-speed system that would be built and run by a private-sector company.


----------



## Anderson

Denham may be a pain; I've got a better feeling on Shuster on this front. Then again, services like AAF and/or Keystone are what Shuster does seem to want pursued.


----------



## Brian_tampa

To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.


You know, I would almost have preferred to see the state acquire the land and lease it to the FEC for a nominal price for a _very_ long, renewable period in exchange for a passenger service/track condition commitment (i.e. if FEC doesn't run the service, or allow a third party to operate it and treat them well, they forfeit the property back to the state).

To answer your question, though, I see nothing wrong with there being other rail operators, though I'd like to see a system of guaranteed interlining of tickets (and agreements on what constitutes a "guaranteed connection" between any two operators in a given city). I support Amtrak because it is, for the most part, _the_ rail operator in the US. If VIA suddenly started running trains into New England, I'd support them. If NS woke up tomorrow morning and wanted to run passenger service on their own, I'd support them. Hell, if UP was game I'd support _them_ so long as I felt it was a good faith attempt.

On a certain level, I do not give a damn who runs the trains, so long as they keep running. I support Amtrak because they run the trains, and indeed run them pretty well, at the present time. And I would still support them if there were competition within passenger rail, though I would also support the competition as well.(1) (2)

So in short, I have every reason to believe that the FEC is operating in good faith, and therefore I support them. When their new service opens up, I _will_ take it with as much frequency as I can justify.

(1) Actually, I _have_ "supported the competition" insofar as I took Metro-North to New Haven and back once with that bar car.

(2) I'm reminded of some old-time rail buffs who would purposefully divide their time between competitors with certain city pairs.


----------



## Anderson

A question comes to mind with these restrictions: What, if anything, is stopping someone from running a feeder bus to Tampa?

Edit: And what would it cost to set up an hourly bus (to meet the hourly trains) from 2-3 locations around Tampa and the Orlando airport?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Brian_tampa said:


> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.


I don't look at it as Amtrak vs. AAF. My problem is if - and I think this is likely - Rep. Denham holds the hearing in the context of AAF as an example of how to run passenger service in the United States and thus that AAF's business model is an example of what Amtrak should do, or how Amtrak could be turned into a private, for profit, business.

First of all, AAF's business model relies on some pretty special circumstances, when one considers AAF's parent company's real estate holdings in Florida. Granted Amtrak owns some prime real estate in the NEC, but Amtrak is primarily about moving people, and while some of its real estate holdings can be used in ways to generate both income and ridership, I do not believe Amtrak's land holdings are anywhere near the acreage of AAF's parent company.

But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' (  ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Davy Crockett said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' (  ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.
Click to expand...

True this! Putting the Cart before the Horse Never Works!


----------



## Bus Nut

Brian_tampa said:


> Look for Disney to be a real player in all of this as well. Remember that several AAF executives have worked for Disney in their careers. I would not be surprised if Disney does become financially involved in some way, perhaps by building their own station at their resort? But all of that is at least 5 years down the road and only if the MIA-ORL section is successful.


Hiring Disney insiders was a shrewd move by FEC. Disney can make or break projects in Orlando; hopefully with that human connection they can persuade Disney to be a partner rather than having Disney react in their usual paranoid way to try to destroy it.

(For those who don't live in Florida, Disney and Darden restaurants just killed an Orange County law that would have mandated a few days of paid sick leave a year for all workers, primarily benefiting restaurant/hospitality workers who currently don't get paid sick leave. Cue jokes about your next Disney vacation.)


----------



## Bus Nut

Brian_tampa said:


> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.


Here's the issue: most passenger rail service in this country is run at a loss. If not an operating loss (and Amtrak is very focused on narrowing this down), then a fully allocated loss when you consider capital expenses.

However, there are some opportunities for HSR corridors than can be profitable overall. Thus, we see this HSR gold rush forming, often with high cooperation from local governments than see benefits to them.

However, there's always the risk that the public interest will get shunted aside for private profit, with the public on the hook if it all goes wrong. That's why public private partnerships have to be carefully negotiated on a level playing field.

The risk is that some federal legislators, more motivated by ideology than practical concerns, will stack the deck against the public operator or even starve it of funds, allow funds to flow to private entities for private profit while cannibalizing the subsidized, public service. The secondary risk is that those communities that depend upon subsidized service will be hurt. Badly.

Government is formed to provide for the common weal. It's not a charity for would be masters of the universe to get rich quick.

If you think I'm jawboning just look at what's going on in Orlando with new bus routes being farmed out to private operators, almost like a private coach operator welfare bill. And the jeeniuses in DC are trying to take this failed model national.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jimhudson said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.
> 
> 
> 
> But hold on a minute here. Even if their real estate holdings were comparable by some measure, the success of AAF's business model exists only on paper. So should something that has not even been built, with absolutely zilch of a proven 'track record' (  ) be held out as an example of how to run a railroad? Once AAF is up and running, a comparison might be of value, but before then, IMHO, it seems to be a case of someone's ideology tripping over reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True this! Putting the Cart before the Horse Never Works!
Click to expand...

Ok. I get that because AAF has not sold the first ticket yet. However, we all know of Amtrak's track record over the past 40+ years. So should Amtrak be held out as an example of how to run a railroad either? Now all of that is not their fault. Congress has alot of blame for the current state of affairs. But that is exactly my point in bringing this up. Does anyone really expect much to change in regards to Amtrak and how well they are funded for the next 10-20 years? We as a country must demand something better than the same old crap that is touted as the best that Americans can do with passenger rail. I for one do not think Amtrak is the answer. It is too politicized and subject to the whims of congress. Amtrak is not the model that we need to duplicate as we go forward with HSR or HrSR systems in this country. Until we get our government 100% behind passenger rail, Amtrak will always be a mess. At least AAF represents hope for a better future in this country for passenger rail.

IMO AAF will serve as a good test case for whether the private sector can run trains and somehow be profitable. You say AAF is unique. Not really. All they have is 9 acres of land in downtown Miami plus a 200 mile railroad between Miami and Cocoa. Most railroads at one time (or still do) owned land in the downtowns of major cities across this country. Maybe what is different about AAF (and FECI) is that they did not sell their land back in the 1960's when most railroads got out of running passenger trains. Any smart company can figure out a way to maximize the value of real estate in any given city in the USA. It is not unique to Florida. It is a matter of motivation and desire!


----------



## Brian_tampa

Bus Nut said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> To play devil's advocate here, what is so bad about AAF versus Amtrak? I have rode Amtrak before over the past 30+ years. I do not see where they are worthy of being the only passenger rail operator in this country. IMHO I think we need more private services such as AAF. In five years from now, let's come back and compare Amtrak services in the midwest to AAF. I want improved passenger rail in this country and am willing to consider all options.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the issue: most passenger rail service in this country is run at a loss. If not an operating loss (and Amtrak is very focused on narrowing this down), then a fully allocated loss when you consider capital expenses.
> 
> However, there are some opportunities for HSR corridors than can be profitable overall. Thus, we see this HSR gold rush forming, often with high cooperation from local governments than see benefits to them.
> 
> However, there's always the risk that the public interest will get shunted aside for private profit, with the public on the hook if it all goes wrong. That's why public private partnerships have to be carefully negotiated on a level playing field.
> 
> The risk is that some federal legislators, more motivated by ideology than practical concerns, will stack the deck against the public operator or even starve it of funds, allow funds to flow to private entities for private profit while cannibalizing the subsidized, public service. The secondary risk is that those communities that depend upon subsidized service will be hurt. Badly.
> 
> Government is formed to provide for the common weal. It's not a charity for would be masters of the universe to get rich quick.
> 
> If you think I'm jawboning just look at what's going on in Orlando with new bus routes being farmed out to private operators, almost like a private coach operator welfare bill. And the jeeniuses in DC are trying to take this failed model national.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure of local bus service being privatized and how well that would work out. AAF is planning to provide a service that the government has refused to provide (remember Rick Scott?). And also, in the case of AAF the public will not be on the hook if the service fails miserably. Even in the case of the RRIF loan they applied for, AAF has to pay for it either by putting up collateral or agreeing to payment terms to ensure the loan will be paid. In the history of the RRIF program, not one loan has failed to be paid back. Maybe it is just me, but I would trust private investors more to determine whether a project will be profitable than I would ever trust government agencies that are only there to create jobs and spend money ( with the side effect of perhaps providing some kind of public service...).


----------



## The Davy Crockett

To say that FECI's only involvement in Florida real estate is 9 acres in Miami is not the case. Take a look at their website.

From their website:



> Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), is one of Florida's oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate and infrastructure companies. Headquartered in Coral Gables, Florida, FECI has a rich history dating back more than a century. Mr. Henry Flagler first established a predecessor company in 1892, which became a pioneer in the development of Florida's eastern coast. Today, FECI continues to transform Florida as the parent company to the following real estate, transportation, and infrastructure businesses within the state... [see website for list]


One from the list is Flagler:



> Flagler is one of Florida’s oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate companies. The company owns, manages, leases, or has under development more than 7 million square feet of Class-A office and industrial space located in strategic markets throughout the state. Flagler also owns 2,500 acres of Florida land with entitlements in place for in excess of 14 million square feet of development.


This information is old, bot it is interesting to see where FECI's real estate holdings were concentrated in 2000:



> In July 2000, FECI's commercial real estate unit, Gran Central Corporation, was renamed Flagler Development Company to reflect its connection with pioneering developer Henry Flagler. It then owned 55 buildings and about 19,000 acres of land, mostly in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami. Flagler, which employed fewer than two dozen people at the time, was moving into a new headquarters and opening offices in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando as its staff expanded. In September 2000, the company announced plans to borrow money for the first time in its history to fund the development of its 16 million square feet of space in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami, reported the_ Business Journal of Jacksonville._ Flagler also was buying property for development in Tampa.


Sounds pretty unique to me. It also seems to me, and I'm not the first one to say this, that AAF is a vehicle to enhance profits in other sectors of FECI's portfolio. AAF is only one portion of a large and diverse for-profit company. Amtrak is in the business of moving people. That is it. And it is not a private for-profit company. Comparing AAF and Amtrak is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that might be learned, but my point is that trying to judge one by the (proposed) characteristics of the other at the upcoming hearing seems pretty speculative and useless at this time.


----------



## Brian_tampa

The Davy Crockett said:


> To say that FECI's only involvement in Florida real estate is 9 acres in Miami is not the case. http://www.feci.com/]Take a look at their website[/url].From their website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), is one of Florida's oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate and infrastructure companies. Headquartered in Coral Gables, Florida, FECI has a rich history dating back more than a century. Mr. Henry Flagler first established a predecessor company in 1892, which became a pioneer in the development of Florida's eastern coast. Today, FECI continues to transform Florida as the parent company to the following real estate, transportation, and infrastructure businesses within the state... [see website for list]
> 
> 
> 
> One from the list is http://www.feci.com/index.php?page=companies-flagler]Flagler:[/url]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flagler is one of Floridas oldest and largest full-service commercial real estate companies. The company owns, manages, leases, or has under development more than 7 million square feet of Class-A office and industrial space located in strategic markets throughout the state. Flagler also owns 2,500 acres of Florida land with entitlements in place for in excess of 14 million square feet of development.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-history/]This information is old[/url], bot it is interesting to see where FECI's real estate holdings were concentrated in 2000:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In July 2000, FECI's commercial real estate unit, Gran Central Corporation, was renamed Flagler Development Company to reflect its connection with pioneering developer Henry Flagler. It then owned 55 buildings and about 19,000 acres of land, mostly in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami. Flagler, which employed fewer than two dozen people at the time, was moving into a new headquarters and opening offices in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando as its staff expanded. In September 2000, the company announced plans to borrow money for the first time in its history to fund the development of its 16 million square feet of space in Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami, reported the_ Business Journal of Jacksonville._ Flagler also was buying property for development in Tampa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds pretty unique to me. It also seems to me, and I'm not the first one to say this, that AAF is a vehicle to enhance profits in other sectors of FECI's portfolio. AAF is only one portion of a large and diverse for-profit company. Amtrak is in the business of moving people. That is it. And it is not a private for-profit company. Comparing AAF and Amtrak is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that might be learned, but my point is that trying to judge one by the (proposed) characteristics of the other at the upcoming hearing seems pretty speculative and useless at this time.
Click to expand...

My point is not that Flagler or FECI does not own alot of real estate in Florida. That they indeed do. It is just that if you look at the land that they own next to the FECR right of way between Miami and Cocoa is minimal. Most of it is in areas that are industrial (or office parks) and of limited development potential for passenger rail. Now having said that, i am not privy to what FECI has bought nearby to their proposed stations. my point is, is that any company could come in and buy land near a railroad corridor (and passenger stations) and profit from its development into a passenger route. If that company also chose to create a new passenger rail service to enhance its real estate holdings then more power to them. FECI surely can't be the only company in the USA to see the value in this?
My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.

I have not read what the agenda of the upcoming field hearings are on passenger rail. I do know Rep. Dedham wants to hold one here in Florida this summer. Amtrak and AAF are apples and oranges - that is my point. we need to open a discussion on how to move forward from here because how things are going is not good for passenger rail in this country. Amtrak needs to change, I do not see a possible solution forward without some sort of change happening to the way Amtrak does business.

Edit: I did not mean FECI only has 9 acres in Miami. I meant what AAF has available to develop. FECI as a whole will benefit - but AAF is responsible for the TOD around their stations. See the STB filing from October of last year in order to understand what AAF has planned. They are two separate companies, AAF-Operations and AAF-Stations.


----------



## chrsjrcj

AAF recently purchased land in West Palm Beach for the station and some TOD. Let's not forget that the proposed stations in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm will have space for retail, but I imagine Miami will be their big money maker with hotel and offices. Isn't this kind of what JR does.... developing land around their train stations?

As far as local service on the FEC, there is the Tri-Rail proposal (possibly all the way to Vero Beach), and the station proposals I've seen for it definitely incluse some TOD. Plus hopefully the state and Amtrak can finally get together to run on the FEC from Jax to WPB.

Maybe I have some naive optimism regarding the project.


----------



## Anderson

Chris: It is. IIRC, JR Central makes most of their profits off of the station-related developments. The equivalent would be if Amtrak were permitted, when a route goes in, to plan a TOD project.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
Click to expand...

I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.

Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> Chris: It is. IIRC, JR Central makes most of their profits off of the station-related developments. The equivalent would be if Amtrak were permitted, when a route goes in, to plan a TOD project.


This is an understatement. There is so much stinkin' shopping real estate at most Japanese train stations as well as relentless and countless adverts inside the train and on the platforms. Quite frankly, I love the tranquility of American stations, but it ain't makin' anyone any money.

I believe that AAF will feed FEC property that is leased at their terminal in Miami. THAT's where a good chunk of their money will be made.

There is a mindset in the US over the last 3 decades or so that dictates that every business unit needs to be self sufficient, or else it's axed. Never mind if that unit provides a function or need that generates revenue in another unit. I think nowadays American companies are beginning to realize the synergy between units is an overall positive for the corporation. This will be critical in the success of FEC's AAF. The other thing that JR does is produce electricity. They use what they make on their electrified lines and sell off any excess to the power company. If FEC was bold enough to consider electrifying the AAF, this could become a real train system.

Amtrak has done a lot of things wrong. I've been impressed with what they've been able to hold on to, though. Pension plans and unions have, in my own opinion, kept Amtrak from being a better company than they are.


----------



## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.
> 
> Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
Click to expand...

I assume that when you say state of Florida and city of Tampa you are referring to the governments of each entity? If so, that is my point. Why should the availability of rail service depend on government? And on those politicians that have the influence to bring such services to their areas (or remove it from other areas lacking the political clout)? I am saying that Tampa had 3 daily trains at one time and to my knowledge had the passenger count to show that all three were supported by the local populace. Yet because of the way Amtrak is setup being a political animal (not focused on service first but satisfying congress), 2 of the trains were rerouted or cut back.

It is my hope that AAF is a success and grows to serve all four major metro areas of Florida eventually. Being one that thinks AAF will succeed, i believe that the people here will show that we genuinely want more rail services but through a different (privately operated) way. At that point the people here in Florida will not have to be dependent on the whims of politicians and a government run organization to determine who gets rail service and what level of service. Sure I agree there are pros and cons of both, but that is what we have been handed here.

I really do not see the state or federal government doing much in the next decade to improve or expand rail service. The federal government is paralyzed. Most state governments cannot afford to spend the money necessary to deliver meaningful service. And no, once or twice a day service is not viable, especially for an area with alot of people such as Florida.


----------



## MikefromCrete

VentureForth said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris: It is. IIRC, JR Central makes most of their profits off of the station-related developments. The equivalent would be if Amtrak were permitted, when a route goes in, to plan a TOD project.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an understatement. There is so much stinkin' shopping real estate at most Japanese train stations as well as relentless and countless adverts inside the train and on the platforms. Quite frankly, I love the tranquility of American stations, but it ain't makin' anyone any money.
> 
> I believe that AAF will feed FEC property that is leased at their terminal in Miami. THAT's where a good chunk of their money will be made.
> 
> There is a mindset in the US over the last 3 decades or so that dictates that every business unit needs to be self sufficient, or else it's axed. Never mind if that unit provides a function or need that generates revenue in another unit. I think nowadays American companies are beginning to realize the synergy between units is an overall positive for the corporation. This will be critical in the success of FEC's AAF. The other thing that JR does is produce electricity. They use what they make on their electrified lines and sell off any excess to the power company. If FEC was bold enough to consider electrifying the AAF, this could become a real train system.
> 
> Amtrak has done a lot of things wrong. I've been impressed with what they've been able to hold on to, though. Pension plans and unions have, in my own opinion, kept Amtrak from being a better company than they are.
Click to expand...

Hey, blame the little guy. That's the American way.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

cirdan said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
Click to expand...

The above post has been edited in this post to reflect the correct quoted poster...


----------



## Brian_tampa

Looks like AAF will be paying $275,000 per year for the lease of the Beachline ROW per:

http://westorlandonews.com/2013/06/25/all-aboard-florida-gets-major-boost-with-new-lease-agreement/

.

[[The terms call for a 50-year lease with an option to renew for another 49 years. AAF will pay FDOT $275,000 per year, adjusting annually for inflation the appraised, fair market value of the lease. The payments are structured to allow AAF an opportunity to get the service built and operating.

"This lease is another example of how our economic policies work to create private sector jobs for Florida families and develop the best transportation and infrastructure system in the country", said Gov. Rick Scott.

"I am pleased to sign this lease between the department and All Aboard Florida in what will become the nations first privately financed, operated and maintained passenger rail system. This high speed passenger rail service will offer transportation choices for our residents and visitors traveling between Orlando and Miami at no cost to state taxpayers", said FDOT Secretary Ananth Prasad ]]


----------



## jphjaxfl

Brian_tampa said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I assume that when you say state of Florida and city of Tampa you are referring to the governments of each entity? If so, that is my point. Why should the availability of rail service depend on government? And on those politicians that have the influence to bring such services to their areas (or remove it from other areas lacking the political clout)? I am saying that Tampa had 3 daily trains at one time and to my knowledge had the passenger count to show that all three were supported by the local populace. Yet because of the way Amtrak is setup being a political animal (not focused on service first but satisfying congress), 2 of the trains were rerouted or cut back.
> 
> It is my hope that AAF is a success and grows to serve all four major metro areas of Florida eventually. Being one that thinks AAF will succeed, i believe that the people here will show that we genuinely want more rail services but through a different (privately operated) way. At that point the people here in Florida will not have to be dependent on the whims of politicians and a government run organization to determine who gets rail service and what level of service. Sure I agree there are pros and cons of both, but that is what we have been handed here.
> 
> I really do not see the state or federal government doing much in the next decade to improve or expand rail service. The federal government is paralyzed. Most state governments cannot afford to spend the money necessary to deliver meaningful service. And no, once or twice a day service is not viable, especially for an area with alot of people such as Florida.
Click to expand...

I agree with you about Amtrak service in Florida. Jacksonville had as many as 10 trains and has been down to 4 since the Palmetto was cut back to Savannah and the Sunset Limited suspended between New Orleans and Orlando. I don't believe Amtrak will ever operate a train from Jacksonville to Miami via the FEC line. I do believe that once the Miami to Orlando AAF line is operating and sucessful, AAF will expand service to Jacksonville as an intrastate operation. I think they could expand to Tampa at some point too, because the market is there. I just heard someone yesterday talking about how bad the traffic on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando was and they wished there was a fast train as an alternative. You are right that the current 1 train daily which might even by pass Tampa with bus alternative is not good service.


----------



## Anderson

The biggest issue with electrifying the FEC system is likely the cost. That's the biggest issue...though on the other hand, if the AAF project were a smash hit I could see such a plan developing over time. However, there's a second issue, namely that Florida gets smashed with enough hurricanes that they'd basically be reconstructing large chunks of the catenary every few years, with outages exacerbating service disruptions (both for freight operations and for the passenger operations). _Anywhere_ else in the US wouldn't have the same sort of (or at least, not on the same scale as you get in FL).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do see Florida as being possibly the worst candidate for electrification in the US unless you have some plan to be able to run dual-mode locomotives or have diesel backups for those periods.

As to rail service being dependent on government support, that has a lot to do with the policy decision to provide free expressways in most areas. The effect of that decision is being reduced in Florida as the highways get to be more congested, and Florida has (to their credit) emphasized toll road construction instead of freeway construction in several places.

The other issue is that if the government goes in to build a highway, they can take advantage of eminent domain, etc., and presumably have government permission. If a private operator goes in, they have to at least get the permission of the government (who could, for example, muck things up with zoning permissions and whatnot), and generally aren't going to have the benefit of eminent domain (unless there's a common carrier exception to eminent domain restrictions).

Finally, there's the fact that while the government can take steps to block a competitor to their product (either a freeway or a toll road...OOCEA, anyone?), let's just assume that you have a smash hit rail project. What's to prevent the government from swooping in and funding a "cheaper" alternative (i.e. a freeway next to a rail line, or a subsidized bus or something).


----------



## Brian_tampa

For what it's worth: here is a link to a presentation made by AAF at two separate forums (held June 14th and 26th) for minority/disadvantaged businesses:

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/AAF-%E2%80%93-Industry-outreach-event-FINAL.pdf

Most of it is old info. However, it verifies the location of the maintenance facility will be at the Orlando airport, not in Ft. Lauderdale as originally proposed last year.

Also, it lists more bridge work than the draft EA from last October did. Just a guess, but maybe AAF will be double tracking most bridges instead of just a select few?


----------



## George Harris

Anderson said:


> The other issue is that if the government goes in to build a highway, they can take advantage of eminent domain, etc., and presumably have government permission. If a private operator goes in, they have to at least get the permission of the government (who could, for example, muck things up with zoning permissions and whatnot), and generally aren't going to have the benefit of eminent domain (unless there's a common carrier exception to eminent domain restrictions).


Public utilities, and in most states a railroad is a public utility for this purpose, have the right of eminent domain. Examples: pipelines, telephone cables, electric transmission lines.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> The biggest issue with electrifying the FEC system is likely the cost. That's the biggest issue...though on the other hand, if the AAF project were a smash hit I could see such a plan developing over time. However, there's a second issue, namely that Florida gets smashed with enough hurricanes that they'd basically be reconstructing large chunks of the catenary every few years, with outages exacerbating service disruptions (both for freight operations and for the passenger operations). _Anywhere_ else in the US wouldn't have the same sort of (or at least, not on the same scale as you get in FL).


Name a single major long distance route in the US that suffers no catastrophes. For that matter, name a single major long distance route in the US that suffers anything more catastrophic and routine than Japan. All things considered if it's designed well and well maintained it should be as robust as any other conventional transportation scheme.


----------



## jis

I think hurricane is a non issue provided the ROW is kept well clear of trees. Besides going forward it would seem that the NEC might become as likely to be hit by hurricane force winds as Florida anyway. If there is willingness to maintain and run service they'll both do just fine.


----------



## Paulus

Anderson said:


> Chris: It is. IIRC, JR Central makes most of their profits off of the station-related developments. The equivalent would be if Amtrak were permitted, when a route goes in, to plan a TOD project.


This isn't actually true; at least for JR Central it's some added gravy, but by far the vast majority of their profit is from high speed rail fares. It actually seems to be on the iTunes model, being operated simply at cost with only a small profit. The main revenue draw of TOD isn't the commercial leases, its the people who take the train to it because that's by far the most convenient means of travel.


----------



## pennyk

A poll was published in today's (7/5/13) Orlando Sentinel asking the question: "Will you ride an Orlando to Miami train?"

The results were: Yes - 72%; No - 28%.  The disclaimer states that the poll results are not scientific. (but they are encouraging)


----------



## George Harris

jis said:


> I think hurricane is a non issue provided the ROW is kept well clear of trees. Besides going forward it would seem that the NEC might become as likely to be hit by hurricane force winds as Florida anyway. If there is willingness to maintain and run service they'll both do just fine.


Trees are only a small part of the problem. And, no the northeast is not as likely to be hit by a hurricane as Florida, not even close. Any look at the history of hurricane landfalls should illustrate that. Huricanes would be a disaster for overhead electrification. Don't think anybody has tried third rail above around 1000 volts, plus there are major safety issues just by having the source of major shocks so handy.


----------



## jis

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think hurricane is a non issue provided the ROW is kept well clear of trees. Besides going forward it would seem that the NEC might become as likely to be hit by hurricane force winds as Florida anyway. If there is willingness to maintain and run service they'll both do just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Trees are only a small part of the problem. And, no the northeast is not as likely to be hit by a hurricane as Florida, not even close. Any look at the history of hurricane landfalls should illustrate that. Huricanes would be a disaster for overhead electrification. Don't think anybody has tried third rail above around 1000 volts, plus there are major safety issues just by having the source of major shocks so handy.
Click to expand...

But there are plenty of eletrified railroads in areas that are as typhoon prone as Florida is hurricane prone. Yes hurricane will damage infrastructure including catenary. but it is no more a disaster for catenary than it is for houses, that was my point. But if course if you disagree, i'll simply say OK if you say so, and shut up.


----------



## George Harris

jis said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think hurricane is a non issue provided the ROW is kept well clear of trees. Besides going forward it would seem that the NEC might become as likely to be hit by hurricane force winds as Florida anyway. If there is willingness to maintain and run service they'll both do just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Trees are only a small part of the problem. And, no the northeast is not as likely to be hit by a hurricane as Florida, not even close. Any look at the history of hurricane landfalls should illustrate that. Huricanes would be a disaster for overhead electrification. Don't think anybody has tried third rail above around 1000 volts, plus there are major safety issues just by having the source of major shocks so handy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But there are plenty of eletrified railroads in areas that are as typhoon prone as Florida is hurricane prone. Yes hurricane will damage infrastructure including catenary. but it is no more a disaster for catenary than it is for houses, that was my point. But if course if you disagree, i'll simply say OK if you say so, and shut up.
Click to expand...

True. I would like to find out how they come out when one does hit. Guess I was not thinking too well, being as I spent quite a few years living in such a place. I really can't remember how long the railroad was not running after a typhoon hit compared to how everything else did. Generally not much of any thing was moving for a while, but I can't think of any problems they had that were related to the electrification without a lot of other things being down and out. But then they had lots of practice with getting things going again after a typhoon hit.


----------



## Anderson

On the typhoons: The biggest issue there is that at least in Japan (where the lines are private), a lot of the lessons learned about dealing with typhoons were learned while the government was running things.


----------



## cirdan

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think hurricane is a non issue provided the ROW is kept well clear of trees. Besides going forward it would seem that the NEC might become as likely to be hit by hurricane force winds as Florida anyway. If there is willingness to maintain and run service they'll both do just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Trees are only a small part of the problem. And, no the northeast is not as likely to be hit by a hurricane as Florida, not even close. Any look at the history of hurricane landfalls should illustrate that. Huricanes would be a disaster for overhead electrification. Don't think anybody has tried third rail above around 1000 volts, plus there are major safety issues just by having the source of major shocks so handy.
Click to expand...

If a major hurricane hits, there will be many reasons besides broken catenary why train services will be disrupted.

The question is not really, can you make a catenary that is indestructible (you probably can, but the cost would be prohibitive) but can you have an arrangement permitting damage to be located and the catenary to be repaired quickly and efficiently. This is the approach taken by power and telephone utilities.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I assume that when you say state of Florida and city of Tampa you are referring to the governments of each entity? If so, that is my point. Why should the availability of rail service depend on government? And on those politicians that have the influence to bring such services to their areas (or remove it from other areas lacking the political clout)? I am saying that Tampa had 3 daily trains at one time and to my knowledge had the passenger count to show that all three were supported by the local populace. Yet because of the way Amtrak is setup being a political animal (not focused on service first but satisfying congress), 2 of the trains were rerouted or cut back.
Click to expand...

If rail service is cut back for whatever reason, then either the local populace (by petitioning and putting pressure on their representatives to bring back that service) can do something about it (even if that involves spending tax money), or they believe that the market should decide on the required service level, and thus admit that the reduction in service they are unhappy about is actually caused by the market. If they stand by the latter philosophy, they shouldn't complain that the market is changing things. What is actually happening is that people are complaining that service isn't as frequent as they want, but they're not prepared to read out for their wallets to do something about it. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case why have they cut service to Tampa over the past 15 years from three trains a day to just one? Amtrak does not care about moving people because of its unique relationship with the government. It answers only to the whim of congress, not to market demands. IMO AAF will be more responsive to the market and able to adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.
> 
> Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I assume that when you say state of Florida and city of Tampa you are referring to the governments of each entity? If so, that is my point. Why should the availability of rail service depend on government? And on those politicians that have the influence to bring such services to their areas (or remove it from other areas lacking the political clout)? I am saying that Tampa had 3 daily trains at one time and to my knowledge had the passenger count to show that all three were supported by the local populace. Yet because of the way Amtrak is setup being a political animal (not focused on service first but satisfying congress), 2 of the trains were rerouted or cut back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If rail service is cut back for whatever reason, then either the local populace (by petitioning and putting pressure on their representatives to bring back that service) can do something about it (even if that involves spending tax money), or they believe that the market should decide on the required service level, and thus admit that the reduction in service they are unhappy about is actually caused by the market. If they stand by the latter philosophy, they shouldn't complain that the market is changing things. What is actually happening is that people are complaining that service isn't as frequent as they want, but they're not prepared to read out for their wallets to do something about it. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...

Ok so you are saying that a more powerful politician from let's say, a NE corridor state, wants to cut back service to the southeast (without increasing spending on Amtrak by the way) in order to improve or maintain NE corridor service, and his constituents don't have to pay more because the money is being shifted from Florida to say New Jersey, then that is okay in your opinion? And that the people here in Florida should just accept it because obviously it is because "the market will not support trains"? Why should people here in Florida not receive the same benefits that people in the NE do? I do remember back in the late 1990's that the Palmetto was a popular train here in Tampa. It was cut back to Savannah in order to move equipment onto the NE corridor if I recall correctly. I want to see the people in the NE corridor pay their fair share if that is the threshold that you put on other states such as Florida. And I do not believe that the NE corridor as presently run by Amtrak is anywhere near profitability. That is my main complaint with Amtrak in that it is a 100% political animal. No way around that and I believe that All Aboard Florida will show Amtrak how to really run trains.


----------



## Nathanael

Anderson said:


> As to rail service being dependent on government support, that has a lot to do with the policy decision to provide free expressways in most areas. The effect of that decision is being reduced in Florida as the highways get to be more congested, and Florida has (to their credit) emphasized toll road construction instead of freeway construction in several places.
> The other issue is that if the government goes in to build a highway, they can take advantage of eminent domain, etc., and presumably have government permission.


This is also why government has to be involved in railroads. And "private" toll roads. The problem of building railroads or through route roads without eminent domain was unmanageable.

In the 19th century, this was "solved" by the government granting eminent domain powers to private railroads -- and these rules still exist. This is a pretty unpopular way of doing things, though -- and since you don't want the private railroads to abuse their eminent domain powers, you end up establishing the Interstate Commerce Commission or the STB... and you're back to the government basically making all the decisions.

Transportation right-of-ways are a government responsibility; the government can carry it out directly or through "public-private partnerships" but it's fundamentally a government responsbility, because only government can make a sensible transportation network. The Romans understood this. Some people in power in the US today do not understand this, which makes this country less competently run than the Roman Empire, at least in the matter of transportation.



> If a private operator goes in, they have to at least get the permission of the government (who could, for example, muck things up with zoning permissions and whatnot), and generally aren't going to have the benefit of eminent domain (unless there's a common carrier exception to eminent domain restrictions).


Not generally, but see the railroad *delegated power of eminent domain*. I wonder how that looks under the "non-delegation doctrine" which the corrupt judge Janice Rogers Brown recently attempted to use to sabotage Amtrak. I wonder how the existing railroads would like to lose that power.


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## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


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> My point is that Amtrak as it currently exists is a failed model of how to run passenger trains. All i am saying is that because our government has no motivation to make sure that Amtrak succeeds is reason enough to at least begin to look elsewhere for how to grow passenger rail travel in the USA. Is Amtrak really in the business of just moving people? If that was the case
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> I think this is a two-way street. If the state of Florida and the city of Tampa genuinely wanted more rail service, I'm sure they would find a way to get it.
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> Moaning and whining to score political points is one thing. Actually delivering improvements is something else. Judge a tree by its fruits etc etc.
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> 
> I assume that when you say state of Florida and city of Tampa you are referring to the governments of each entity? If so, that is my point. Why should the availability of rail service depend on government? And on those politicians that have the influence to bring such services to their areas (or remove it from other areas lacking the political clout)? I am saying that Tampa had 3 daily trains at one time and to my knowledge had the passenger count to show that all three were supported by the local populace. Yet because of the way Amtrak is setup being a political animal (not focused on service first but satisfying congress), 2 of the trains were rerouted or cut back.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> If rail service is cut back for whatever reason, then either the local populace (by petitioning and putting pressure on their representatives to bring back that service) can do something about it (even if that involves spending tax money), or they believe that the market should decide on the required service level, and thus admit that the reduction in service they are unhappy about is actually caused by the market. If they stand by the latter philosophy, they shouldn't complain that the market is changing things. What is actually happening is that people are complaining that service isn't as frequent as they want, but they're not prepared to read out for their wallets to do something about it. You can't have it both ways.
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> 
> Ok so you are saying that a more powerful politician from let's say, a NE corridor state, wants to cut back service to the southeast (without increasing spending on Amtrak by the way) in order to improve or maintain NE corridor service, and his constituents don't have to pay more because the money is being shifted from Florida to say New Jersey, then that is okay in your opinion? And that the people here in Florida should just accept it because obviously it is because "the market will not support trains"? Why should people here in Florida not receive the same benefits that people in the NE do? I do remember back in the late 1990's that the Palmetto was a popular train here in Tampa. It was cut back to Savannah in order to move equipment onto the NE corridor if I recall correctly. I want to see the people in the NE corridor pay their fair share if that is the threshold that you put on other states such as Florida. And I do not believe that the NE corridor as presently run by Amtrak is anywhere near profitability. That is my main complaint with Amtrak in that it is a 100% political animal. No way around that and I believe that All Aboard Florida will show Amtrak how to really run trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok so you are saying that a more powerful politician from let's say, a NE corridor state, wants to cut back service to the southeast (without increasing spending on Amtrak by the way) in order to improve or maintain NE corridor service, and his constituents don't have to pay more because the money is being shifted from Florida to say New Jersey, then that is okay in your opinion? And that the people here in Florida should just accept it because obviously it is because "the market will not support trains"? Why should people here in Florida not receive the same benefits that people in the NE do? I do remember back in the late 1990's that the Palmetto was a popular train here in Tampa. It was cut back to Savannah in order to move equipment onto the NE corridor if I recall correctly. I want to see the people in the NE corridor pay their fair share if that is the threshold that you put on other states such as Florida. And I do not believe that the NE corridor as presently run by Amtrak is anywhere near profitability. That is my main complaint with Amtrak in that it is a 100% political animal. No way around that and I believe that All Aboard Florida will show Amtrak how to really run trains.
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 No, I'm not saying its OK to rob Florida to put more money into the NEC. On the contrary, I think the same rules should apply to everybody.

However, FEC as yet is still on the drawing board. If and when it does start turning a profit and delivering a better service than Amtrak, then I am okay with looking into why Amtrak can't do the same, or maybe hiring FEC managers to make proposals on what to do about Amtrak. But right now we are comparing a working railroad with something that is still a project. The proof of the pudding should be in the eating, not in what the chef promises.


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## AlanB

Brian_tampa said:


> I do remember back in the late 1990's that the Palmetto was a popular train here in Tampa. It was cut back to Savannah in order to move equipment onto the NE corridor if I recall correctly.


The Silver Palm was running in the late 90's, as I rode it several times back then. It was cut back in the early 2000's to Savannah and renamed the Palmetto. And that cut back wasn't to provide equipment to the NEC, as the NEC uses Amfleet I's and the Palm used Amfleet II's.

The cutback was because of a lack of equipment, namely sleepers & dining cars due to various accidents around the system including but not limited to the big Auto Train crash in Florida that took out 4 sleepers in one wreck. And in fact, for a brief period of time, Amtrak ran the Palm/Palmetto as coach only train. But that hurt ridership even more and took away the premium dollars from the sleeper pax, so it was cut back to Savannah.


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## jis

Under Amtrak, before the Silver Palm the train was Palmetto variously to Savannah or JAX, and was even then one of the better performing LD trains, even though the only day LD train, just like now.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> No, I'm not saying its OK to rob Florida to put more money into the NEC. On the contrary, I think the same rules should apply to everybody.
> However, FEC as yet is still on the drawing board. If and when it does start turning a profit and delivering a better service than Amtrak, then I am okay with looking into why Amtrak can't do the same, or maybe hiring FEC managers to make proposals on what to do about Amtrak. But right now we are comparing a working railroad with something that is still a project. The proof of the pudding should be in the eating, not in what the chef promises.


What is interesting though is that FEC has hired an Amtrak manager to run the show for them!
I agree that we should stop counting our chicken way before the eggs hatch.


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## Anderson

Non-delegation doctrine is a bit of a tangle, though I generally do support it (since...let's face it, regulatory agencies pulling rules out of their arse gave us _all_ sorts of goodies from the ICC), even if it's burning us in some cases. The problem in this case is the odd status of Amtrak (namely, being "private" in name only), which generates some problems insofar as letting Amtrak set government rules by which Amtrak has to operate.


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## jis

Anderson said:


> Non-delegation doctrine is a bit of a tangle, though I generally do support it (since...let's face it, regulatory agencies pulling rules out of their arse gave us _all_ sorts of goodies from the ICC), even if it's burning us in some cases. The problem in this case is the odd status of Amtrak (namely, being "private" in name only), which generates some problems insofar as letting Amtrak set government rules by which Amtrak has to operate.


Wrong thread maybe? Sounds like something that belongs in the "Court: Penalties for Poor Amtrak Handling Unconstitutional in Amtrak Rail Discussion" thread.


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## Anderson

...I was wondering where that post had gone...


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## jis

Good thing is that as Moderator you can actually fix it


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## Ryan

That's OK, just post something about the FEC in the other thread and it'll all balance out.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Good thing is that as Moderator you can actually fix it


But that would be cheating!


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## VentureForth

No matter how you look at it, FEC has a much stronger chance at success than the X-Train, Z-Train and a lot of other ventures that want to run trains on other peoples track. Even the most successful non-Amtrak one of these died a painful death - the Denver Ski Train.

FEC is a holding company with the railroad being it's foundation. They are railroaders, not model train enthusiasts, and I hope they make this thing work.


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## Brian_tampa

Looks like more behind the scenes negotiating with the Deseret Ranches people:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-deseret-orlando-miami-train-20130716,0,6956136.story

At least AAF gets a better ROW out of this that will ensure higher speeds and less construction issues (and costs). Although it sounds like some of the savings might go toward mollifying the Morman church ranch. I just hope it is done in an environmentally sensitive way!


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## Brian_tampa

Interesting goings on at the OOCEA this week (and next week). Their ROW committee met yesterday and approved the attached contract document for the purchase of land adjacent to the Beachline Expy. The OOCEA is buying a 200 ft wide strip of land for 12 million dollars from Deseret Ranches. Buried in the contract document it spells out that AAF (and perhaps others) will place no less than 38 million dollars in escrow to be used to eventually construct the extension of the Osceola Parkway onto Deseret Ranches land. See section 11 on pages 12 and 13 of the document.

https://www.oocea.com/Portals/0/2013%20board%20meetings/July%2024/Deseret%20Ranch%20Agr.pdf

This contract agreement is also an action item for approval by the Executive Board of the OOCEA at their monthly meeting next Wednesday on 7/24/13. See:

https://www.oocea.com/CorporateInformation/Administration/BoardMeetings/MeetingAgenda.aspx?meetingID=190&category=board_meeting

IMO this deal is a big giveaway to the Morman Mormon church. There are alot of conditions they have attached to this deal - this is the other shoe dropping on the lease agreement that OOCEA, AAF, FDOT and Deseret Ranches agreed to last month.


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## John Bredin

MormOn. Morm*o*n. Mormon.

Carry on! :giggle:

Sorry, not Mormon/LDS, but that misspelling was distracting. I kept thinking of mermen, though the usual Florida tourist-trap shtick is mermaids.


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## Brian_tampa

John Bredin said:


> MormOn. Morm*o*n. Mormon.
> Carry on! :giggle:
> 
> Sorry, not Mormon/LDS, but that misspelling was distracting. I kept thinking of mermen, though the usual Florida tourist-trap shtick is mermaids.


Ooops! Thanks for the spelling error catch! It was late and was a long day for me last night when I posted it. But now that I see it, it is kind of _really_ obvious!


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## Brian_tampa

I missed this other bit of news that OOCEA is working on, this is from the OOCEA's Executive Director's monthly report:for July:



> “Transmitted the Board resolution of support for passenger rail between OIA and International Drive to FDOT for preparation of an RFP.”


I assume the new RFP is going to be similar to the RFP that AAF responded to last November December 7th for the BeachLine Expressway lease. I remember that the OOCEA was designated the lead agency in overseeing the RFP and negotiating on behalf of FDOT, the Turnpike Authority and the OOCEA (since they all own pieces of the expressways in the Orlando area). I doubt if this is for the maglev train proposal between OIA and I-Drive that was presented to the OOCEA recently. An RFP is not for government projects (such as SunRail), but used for public/private ventures such as AAF. Florida just updated the laws regarding public/private projects this past session in Tallahassee. Perhaps this new RFP is the very beginning of a possible expansion westward to Disney (or maybe for a local light rail route)? It is hard to say what exactly this RFP is about due to the absence of any details.


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## Anderson

I wouldn't be surprised either way. It's quite possible that FEC did some studies and wants an extension to Disney ASAP. It's also possible that the plan is to extend to Disney/Tampa in 3-5 years, but wants to get their ducks in a row first...which would make more sense than waiting several years to start the process. Even if they decided not to go with the extension for some reason, it might well make more sense to risk abandoning a deposit than to risk losing several years to "study" delays.


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## afigg

AAF says that they are close to putting out design bids for the project according to this article Miami-Orlando train plans gain steam Excerpt:



> Managers of the project to operate a premium Miami-Orlando passenger train service say they are close to putting out bids to design the railroad corridor stretching from downtown Miami to the Orlando International Airport.
> “We will be awarding design packages for the West Palm Beach to Miami segment August or September,” Husein Cumber, executive vice president for corporate development for Florida East Coast Industries, told a meeting Thursday in Coral Gables of the Florida Transportation Commission.
> After the meeting, Cumber went further and said the design packages are for the Miami-Orlando corridor.
> “The design and engineering packages we plan to release are for varying segments of the 240-mile corridor,” Cumber said later. “We anticipate beginning construction on the rail infrastructure between Miami and West Palm Beach by the end of this year.”


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## Anderson

I'm starting to wonder if we might not see a MIA-WPB operating segment running in some form before the whole project gets finished (since MIA-WPB probably needs the least work but is getting bid out first).


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## Paulus

Anderson said:


> I'm starting to wonder if we might not see a MIA-WPB operating segment running in some form before the whole project gets finished (since MIA-WPB probably needs the least work but is getting bid out first).


It's possible and was talked about early on, but the lead time on getting the rail cars probably means not.

Relatedly, it's quite unfortunate that they're going with idiot Amtrak/airline style boarding.


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## MattW

Good grief, I bet they got leaned on by tsa or dhs or one of the other reprehensible alphabet soup components.


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## Anderson

MattW said:


> Good grief, I bet they got leaned on by tsa or dhs or one of the other reprehensible alphabet soup components.


I'm not even going to comment.


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## PRR 60

This may have nothing to do with “security.” It would not surprise me if they were planning to use transit-style ticket collection with tickets validated in and out at the stations and passengers passing in and out of secured paid areas. With properly designed stations and fare collection equipment, on-board ticket collection or scanning would not be required. That would eliminate the need to have multiple conductors on board collecting tickets. One conductor could be used to meet operating requirements, and could even be located in the cab with the engineer. The passenger cars could be staffed with a few non-op attendants.

Back in the 1960's, the FEC broke a lot of old-school train staffing barriers; even to the extent they endured a long and sometimes violent strike and hired non-union labor to operate their trains. FEC refused to sign on to the national railroad labor agreement, and that freed them from the standard work rules. One of the changes they made in the last stages of FEC passenger service was to eliminate conductors collecting tickets. This new plan would fit that thinking.


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## Brian_tampa

PRR 60 said:


> This may have nothing to do with “security.” It would not surprise me if they were planning to use transit-style ticket collection with tickets validated in and out at the stations and passengers passing in and out of secured paid areas. With properly designed stations and fare collection equipment, on-board ticket collection or scanning would not be required. That would eliminate the need to have multiple conductors on board collecting tickets. One conductor could be used to meet operating requirements, and could even be located in the cab with the engineer. The passenger cars could be staffed with a few non-op attendants.
> Back in the 1960's, the FEC broke a lot of old-school train staffing barriers; even to the extent they endured a long and sometimes violent strike and hired non-union labor to operate their trains. FEC refused to sign on to the national railroad labor agreement, and that freed them from the standard work rules. One of the changes they made in the last stages of FEC passenger service was to eliminate conductors collecting tickets. This new plan would fit that thinking.


Also remember as part of their EA report provided to the FRA, they mentioned that there would be some sort of assigned seating. It mentioned customers would be assigned to specific cars (and perhaps seats?) and they would stand at designated spots on the platform marked by numbers (electronic signage I assume). I think they are also doing the holding area process due to concerns about liability. They don't want customers on the platforms just feet away from an active freight railroad!


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## pennyk

Here is an article regarding concerns of Delray Beach residents about noisy train horns.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-07-27/news/fl-all-aboard-florida-quiet-zones-20130727_1_all-aboard-florida-quiet-zones-wayside-horns


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## Anderson

One thing to bear in mind: Enough of the business is likely to be MIA-ORL at the start (though FLL-ORL will likely run a close second, followed by both-directions business at WPB) that you'll have trains sitting in the station for a bit prior to departure. This is especially true with the Miami station (with tracks four stories up at a stub-end terminal, discussed here: http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2012/11/07/all-aboard-florida-station-layouts.php )...though I suspect if commuter operations come into the mix like I think FEC wants, four tracks may not cut it if you have a highly directional flow of traffic.


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## VentureForth

I'm sure they have this all figured out, but where is FEC getting the money to do this? I know they are sort of "Independently wealthy," but this report shows operating losses and profits that are barely modest for a company about to put out the expenditure they are.

As for kindergarten walk boarding, that's gotta go. No need for it here!

Finally, I still don't see the benefit in training into Orlando. What good is a fast journey if it takes an additional hour (public transit) or $50+ (taxi) or so to get the last 5 miles to where you're going?


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## chrsjrcj

Florida East Coast Industries (FECI), the parent company of FEC Railway, is behind the project. FECI is heavily involved in real estate in Florida.


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## Anderson

IIRC, the whole affair is further owned by these guys:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=fig&ql=1

Fortress Investment Group. It's a hedge fund-esque operation, so I'm guessing there's a lot of homework going on here. Also, who knows what (aside from FECR) might be owned by FIG in Florida...it's entirely possible that there's a complex set of transactions that are not entirely apparent at the present (i.e. FIG-run hedge funds owning real estate near station sites). It's also possible that this isn't the case; I have no idea which direction (above or below) the impetus is coming from. That said...from what I can tell, the project is rather competent.

On the OIA location for the terminal:
(1) SunRail is putting in a connection to the airport. This really should have been a no-brainer when SunRail started (for non-tourist trips, it's likely to be a slam dunk in terms of ridership...and for tourists not staying in the resort areas and/or locals going to the airport, it seems like a winner), but my understanding (possibly flawed) is that FEC and the Orlando folks are pushing ahead with it.

(2) OIA is where you get a rental car, can get a connection to Disney (for now), etc. In short, it's a good hub for traffic going both ways.
(3) It also makes sense in the context of wanting to go _through_ Orlando to Tampa rather than just going _to_ Orlando. Between the pre-existing HSR ROW plans and the ROW along the Beeline, there's not a bunch of expensive demolition work that'd be needed to knock a new line through town, nor a messy backup move into or out of the city (not to mention lost running time going in and out even if you could do a "quickie wye").

(4) In connection with (3), it seems likely that you're going to get the Tampa extension running by Disney...and if Disney follows through with their plans for the HSR line (i.e. to rework their shuttles and direct folks onto the train, likely just doing some limited baggage handling either at OIA or "just" at Disney "proper"), the ridership potential there (and indeed, potentially from Tampa as well) is substantial.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> IIRC, the whole affair is further owned by these guys:http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=fig&ql=1
> 
> Fortress Investment Group. It's a hedge fund-esque operation, so I'm guessing there's a lot of homework going on here. Also, who knows what (aside from FECR) might be owned by FIG in Florida...it's entirely possible that there's a complex set of transactions that are not entirely apparent at the present (i.e. FIG-run hedge funds owning real estate near station sites). It's also possible that this isn't the case; I have no idea which direction (above or below) the impetus is coming from. That said...from what I can tell, the project is rather competent.
> 
> On the OIA location for the terminal:
> 
> (1) SunRail is putting in a connection to the airport. This really should have been a no-brainer when SunRail started (for non-tourist trips, it's likely to be a slam dunk in terms of ridership...and for tourists not staying in the resort areas and/or locals going to the airport, it seems like a winner), but my understanding (possibly flawed) is that FEC and the Orlando folks are pushing ahead with it.
> 
> (2) OIA is where you get a rental car, can get a connection to Disney (for now), etc. In short, it's a good hub for traffic going both ways.
> 
> (3) It also makes sense in the context of wanting to go _through_ Orlando to Tampa rather than just going _to_ Orlando. Between the pre-existing HSR ROW plans and the ROW along the Beeline, there's not a bunch of expensive demolition work that'd be needed to knock a new line through town, nor a messy backup move into or out of the city (not to mention lost running time going in and out even if you could do a "quickie wye").
> 
> (4) In connection with (3), it seems likely that you're going to get the Tampa extension running by Disney...and if Disney follows through with their plans for the HSR line (i.e. to rework their shuttles and direct folks onto the train, likely just doing some limited baggage handling either at OIA or "just" at Disney "proper"), the ridership potential there (and indeed, potentially from Tampa as well) is substantial.


In point 4 you talked about potential ridership. Here is a table showing the projected intercity trips (all modes) between areas of Florida that was in the FDOT report labelled "2006 Florida Freight and Passenger Rail Plan" from page 5-22:

Table 5.9 Potential Travel Markets for Intercity Passenger Rail Service
Person-Trips (Millions)
Intercity Travel Markets
Existing Rail Corridor
to be Potentially Used
to Support Proposed
Markets Year 2000 Year 2020 Year 2040
Southeast Florida – Central Florida SFRC/CSXT 9.45 18.42 30.39
Southeast Florida – Tampa Bay SFRC/CSXT/I-4 4.85 8.54 14.09
Southeast Florida – Northeast Florida SFRC/FEC 1.30 2.28 3.77
Central Florida – Tampa Bay CSXT/I-4 14.16 29.16 48.12
Central Florida – Northeast Florida CSXT/I-4 3.54 7.32 12.08
Tampa Bay – Northeast Florida CSXT/I-4 1.55 2.91 4.80

Source: Florida Intercity Passenger Rail Vision Plan, Draft Executive Report, Florida Department of
Transportation, August 2006.

I know there was a later report (I can't seem to find it) that updated and expanded on this and that pretty much used the same passenger trip numbers. Also in the report on page 5-23 you will see that AAF is basically following what FDOT called the "Coastal Route" in their plans. It says to use the FECR, Beach Line, and I-4 ROW's. I am sure AAF is aware of all of these previous reports and studies - probably a big reason why they decided to research this project in the first place.

If you look at the numbers you will see that between South Florida and the combined TampaBay/Central Florida areas there are projected to be about 27 million trips in 2020. Tampa Bay to Orlando alone is also a big market too. I would use these numbers for relative comparison. But you can see how between Northeast Florida to everywhere else is about 12 million trips in 2020. This is a big reason why I personally think that AAF will work on connecting Tampa before Jacksonville, even though the cost to build will be higher. Orlando to Tampa is less than half the distance of Cocoa to Jacksonville, but requires new ROW (most likely will follow the exact same route as the proposed HSR) and tracks.


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## VentureForth

Sunrail used to have a very detailed plan for light rail. I was under the impression that this was what was to be used for the connections. Right now, I don't see anything on the site indicating any sort of Sunrail connection to the airport by rail - looks more like just taking the Lynx #50 bus or something...

Again, getting a rental car, taking a cab, riding a bus all the above defeats the primary purpose of getting somewhere quickly only to be bogged down by inefficient travel.

Hurry up, Pay up, and wait.


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## battalion51

There's a few positives to going to OIA. As mentioned you've got the huge rental car facility, and if you work out something with ZipCars that'd be even better. Also, Disney operates their Magical Express bus service for its resort guests, so that connection can be made as well (and that one is free to the guest). Orlando isn't like New York where everyone is trying to get to Manhattan, the city is spread out. Some people are trying to get to the parks, some to downtown, some to suburbia. Terminate the service somewhere neutral that won't require a bunch of additional new infrastructure to be built up. But on the flip side, consider people traveling from Orlando. You've got a huge contingent of college students just up the road at UCF. If UCF doesn't start offering bus service to this, I'm sure someone is enterprising enough to figure it out. There are so many college kids these days that don't have cars, that I'm sure there will be a bunch of South Florida parents who will love this. Besides the college kids, most folks will want to park their cars somewhere, and there isn't much of a shortage of parking at an airport.


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa,

Those numbers often miss one key point...namely, that the rail system is unlikely to capture 100% of the "potential" market. This is especially true on shorter trips, which is what I've long suspected was going to be a hassle for the Orlampa project in a vacuum (not much time is actually saved, Orlando's not that far off, and neither city has a great transit system). Of your "potential" riders, a certain share are always going to drive...notice that the ridership estimates for phase two are nowhere near those market sizes. Central FL-Tampa is the largest of those potential markets...but it's also the one likely to see some of the lowest utilization on the list since it's almost too short for intercity rail (<90 miles, <90 minutes) plus the transit issue. Especially trying to get folks to pay "intercity" rates for travel seems a bit unlikely at the moment...though if congestion gets too bad, who knows.

As part of a larger system, and with SunRail in the mix, I think the operation has promise. I just do not buy the super-high ridership estimates that have flown around many times.


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## Eric S

VentureForth said:


> Sunrail used to have a very detailed plan for light rail. I was under the impression that this was what was to be used for the connections. Right now, I don't see anything on the site indicating any sort of Sunrail connection to the airport by rail - looks more like just taking the Lynx #50 bus or something...


I've been wondering this too. Perhaps I've just missed it, but everytime I've looked at SunRail info online, I've only seen references to an airport connection as a possible, future, unplanned phase, or as being perhaps/maybe provided by another mode or operator altogether.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa,Those numbers often miss one key point...namely, that the rail system is unlikely to capture 100% of the "potential" market. This is especially true on shorter trips, which is what I've long suspected was going to be a hassle for the Orlampa project in a vacuum (not much time is actually saved, Orlando's not that far off, and neither city has a great transit system). Of your "potential" riders, a certain share are always going to drive...notice that the ridership estimates for phase two are nowhere near those market sizes. Central FL-Tampa is the largest of those potential markets...but it's also the one likely to see some of the lowest utilization on the list since it's almost too short for intercity rail (<90 miles, <90 minutes) plus the transit issue. Especially trying to get folks to pay "intercity" rates for travel seems a bit unlikely at the moment...though if congestion gets too bad, who knows.
> 
> As part of a larger system, and with SunRail in the mix, I think the operation has promise. I just do not buy the super-high ridership estimates that have flown around many times.


The ridership estimates are just that. I was using them to do a comparison of whether AAF would consider Jacksonville or Tampa for their first expansion. I do agree that any ridership study has been shown in the past to overestimate actual ridership numbers, especially in a state like Florida where public transit really is bad. That being said, I do believe that AAF has done their homework on the future potential routes. I just can't see where Jacksonville would be the next expansion target. Jacksonville to orlando is also a relatively short distance (145 miles vs 100 miles tampa bay to orlando) unlike Orlando or Tampa to south Florida. I would say the primary market will be Tampa bay/Orlando to S Florida. Jacksonville to S Florida really doesn't compare to the that market segment IMO. I am pretty much discounting the Tampa bay to Orlando market as that would be minimal as you suggest, just as I believe Jacksonville to Orlando will be as well. Maybe if Amtrak ever brings back frequent connections to the north of Jacksonville (say, to Atlanta or Charlotte perhaps as well as to traditional northeast cities?) then AAF will do well in Jacksonville. But then, AAF has stated they do not want anything to do with Amtrak. Time will tell.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa,Those numbers often miss one key point...namely, that the rail system is unlikely to capture 100% of the "potential" market. This is especially true on shorter trips, which is what I've long suspected was going to be a hassle for the Orlampa project in a vacuum (not much time is actually saved, Orlando's not that far off, and neither city has a great transit system). Of your "potential" riders, a certain share are always going to drive...notice that the ridership estimates for phase two are nowhere near those market sizes. Central FL-Tampa is the largest of those potential markets...but it's also the one likely to see some of the lowest utilization on the list since it's almost too short for intercity rail (<90 miles, <90 minutes) plus the transit issue. Especially trying to get folks to pay "intercity" rates for travel seems a bit unlikely at the moment...though if congestion gets too bad, who knows.
> 
> As part of a larger system, and with SunRail in the mix, I think the operation has promise. I just do not buy the super-high ridership estimates that have flown around many times.
> 
> 
> 
> The ridership estimates are just that. I was using them to do a comparison of whether AAF would consider Jacksonville or Tampa for their first expansion. I do agree that any ridership study has been shown in the past to overestimate actual ridership numbers, especially in a state like Florida where public transit really is bad. That being said, I do believe that AAF has done their homework on the future potential routes. I just can't see where Jacksonville would be the next expansion target. Jacksonville to orlando is also a relatively short distance (145 miles vs 100 miles tampa bay to orlando) unlike Orlando or Tampa to south Florida. I would say the primary market will be Tampa bay/Orlando to S Florida. Jacksonville to S Florida really doesn't compare to the that market segment IMO. I am pretty much discounting the Tampa bay to Orlando market as that would be minimal as you suggest, just as I believe Jacksonville to Orlando will be as well. Maybe if Amtrak ever brings back frequent connections to the north of Jacksonville (say, to Atlanta or Charlotte perhaps as well as to traditional northeast cities?) then AAF will do well in Jacksonville. But then, AAF has stated they do not want anything to do with Amtrak. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

AAF has been in a bit of a tangle because of wanting to avoid STB oversight and all that entails for their service. FEC has said they don't seem to mind Amtrak running a train or two down their tracks. If it's "just" an issue of interlining service (or not), that's not a big deal...it's always plausible that someone (maybe even Jacksonville's transit people) will get a bus between the stations and "patch" that connection; it's also possible that it'll be something private (a local coach operator would really only need one or two buses to run a "circulator" service) in the vein of the operation that ran between the stations in Chicago back in the 50s.

I don't see AAF _not_ expanding into Jacksonville, even if it's infrequent service. JAX-ORL is a marginally better market than TPA-ORL (it _is_ better if there's a connection to Disney, IMHO, since getting to Disney from JAX requires going _through_ ORL), but JAX-MIA and JAX-TPA are non-trivial markets that're long-enough distance to attract traffic. Moreover, if service to JAX starts, there's every chance that the Jacksonville folks ask to start up a commuter run down towards St. Augustine (I know there have been intermittent studies on that front). And of course, there's also the point that each destination that's added makes each subsequent destination added incrementally better. Though it's not in the AAF plan, Naples _is_ in the state's plan, and I cannot help but wonder if something might not happen there in the (rather long) long run.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa,
> 
> Those numbers often miss one key point...namely, that the rail system is unlikely to capture 100% of the "potential" market. This is especially true on shorter trips, which is what I've long suspected was going to be a hassle for the Orlampa project in a vacuum (not much time is actually saved, Orlando's not that far off, and neither city has a great transit system). Of your "potential" riders, a certain share are always going to drive...notice that the ridership estimates for phase two are nowhere near those market sizes. Central FL-Tampa is the largest of those potential markets...but it's also the one likely to see some of the lowest utilization on the list since it's almost too short for intercity rail (<90 miles, <90 minutes) plus the transit issue. Especially trying to get folks to pay "intercity" rates for travel seems a bit unlikely at the moment...though if congestion gets too bad, who knows.
> 
> As part of a larger system, and with SunRail in the mix, I think the operation has promise. I just do not buy the super-high ridership estimates that have flown around many times.
> 
> 
> 
> The ridership estimates are just that. I was using them to do a comparison of whether AAF would consider Jacksonville or Tampa for their first expansion. I do agree that any ridership study has been shown in the past to overestimate actual ridership numbers, especially in a state like Florida where public transit really is bad. That being said, I do believe that AAF has done their homework on the future potential routes. I just can't see where Jacksonville would be the next expansion target. Jacksonville to orlando is also a relatively short distance (145 miles vs 100 miles tampa bay to orlando) unlike Orlando or Tampa to south Florida. I would say the primary market will be Tampa bay/Orlando to S Florida. Jacksonville to S Florida really doesn't compare to the that market segment IMO. I am pretty much discounting the Tampa bay to Orlando market as that would be minimal as you suggest, just as I believe Jacksonville to Orlando will be as well. Maybe if Amtrak ever brings back frequent connections to the north of Jacksonville (say, to Atlanta or Charlotte perhaps as well as to traditional northeast cities?) then AAF will do well in Jacksonville. But then, AAF has stated they do not want anything to do with Amtrak. Time will tell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AAF has been in a bit of a tangle because of wanting to avoid STB oversight and all that entails for their service. FEC has said they don't seem to mind Amtrak running a train or two down their tracks. If it's "just" an issue of interlining service (or not), that's not a big deal...it's always plausible that someone (maybe even Jacksonville's transit people) will get a bus between the stations and "patch" that connection; it's also possible that it'll be something private (a local coach operator would really only need one or two buses to run a "circulator" service) in the vein of the operation that ran between the stations in Chicago back in the 50s.
> 
> I don't see AAF _not_ expanding into Jacksonville, even if it's infrequent service. JAX-ORL is a marginally better market than TPA-ORL (it _is_ better if there's a connection to Disney, IMHO, since getting to Disney from JAX requires going _through_ ORL), but JAX-MIA and JAX-TPA are non-trivial markets that're long-enough distance to attract traffic. Moreover, if service to JAX starts, there's every chance that the Jacksonville folks ask to start up a commuter run down towards St. Augustine (I know there have been intermittent studies on that front). And of course, there's also the point that each destination that's added makes each subsequent destination added incrementally better. Though it's not in the AAF plan, Naples _is_ in the state's plan, and I cannot help but wonder if something might not happen there in the (rather long) long run.
Click to expand...

FEC has been doing a lot of work on their tracks between Jacksonville and St. Augustine replacing ties etc. There has been "talk" of commuter service between Jacksonville and St. Augustine as well as Jacksonville to Green Cove Springs along the A-line, but there is no funding so I wouldn't hold my breath. Both areas have had a lot of development is recent years and commuter trains would help alieviate traffic,however, people do not support public transportation of any kind in Northeast Florida. Many don't know that Amtrak even serves Jacksonville


----------



## Bus Nut

VentureForth said:


> I'm sure they have this all figured out, but where is FEC getting the money to do this? I know they are sort of "Independently wealthy," but this report shows operating losses and profits that are barely modest for a company about to put out the expenditure they are.


Good question. You're not the only one wondering.



VentureForth said:


> As for kindergarten walk boarding, that's gotta go. No need for it here!


What is so terrible about the train queue?



VentureForth said:


> Finally, I still don't see the benefit in training into Orlando. What good is a fast journey if it takes an additional hour (public transit) or $50+ (taxi) or so to get the last 5 miles to where you're going?


The station is going to be colocated with the car rental outlets. That would work for business trips.

I expect when this service gets going some enterprising sorts will start feeder coach lines to the HSR station as well, unless the airport authority gets too greedy.


----------



## Bus Nut

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa,Those numbers often miss one key point...namely, that the rail system is unlikely to capture 100% of the "potential" market. This is especially true on shorter trips, which is what I've long suspected was going to be a hassle for the Orlampa project in a vacuum (not much time is actually saved, Orlando's not that far off, and neither city has a great transit system). Of your "potential" riders, a certain share are always going to drive...notice that the ridership estimates for phase two are nowhere near those market sizes. Central FL-Tampa is the largest of those potential markets...but it's also the one likely to see some of the lowest utilization on the list since it's almost too short for intercity rail (<90 miles, <90 minutes) plus the transit issue. Especially trying to get folks to pay "intercity" rates for travel seems a bit unlikely at the moment...though if congestion gets too bad, who knows.
> 
> As part of a larger system, and with SunRail in the mix, I think the operation has promise. I just do not buy the super-high ridership estimates that have flown around many times.
> 
> 
> 
> The ridership estimates are just that. I was using them to do a comparison of whether AAF would consider Jacksonville or Tampa for their first expansion. I do agree that any ridership study has been shown in the past to overestimate actual ridership numbers, especially in a state like Florida where public transit really is bad. That being said, I do believe that AAF has done their homework on the future potential routes. I just can't see where Jacksonville would be the next expansion target. Jacksonville to orlando is also a relatively short distance (145 miles vs 100 miles tampa bay to orlando) unlike Orlando or Tampa to south Florida. I would say the primary market will be Tampa bay/Orlando to S Florida. Jacksonville to S Florida really doesn't compare to the that market segment IMO. I am pretty much discounting the Tampa bay to Orlando market as that would be minimal as you suggest, just as I believe Jacksonville to Orlando will be as well. Maybe if Amtrak ever brings back frequent connections to the north of Jacksonville (say, to Atlanta or Charlotte perhaps as well as to traditional northeast cities?) then AAF will do well in Jacksonville. But then, AAF has stated they do not want anything to do with Amtrak. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

The main issue is that driving between Tampa and Orlando is absolute hell, whereas driving to Jacksonville is pretty easy and quick. Anecdotally, plenty of supposedly "car-loving" Floridians have expressed to me how mad they are at Rick Scott for cancelling the Tampa-Orlando project. Presumably a government project in this area would have had multiple Orlando and Tampa regional stops and pretty much not stopped in between. As for transit being terrible, really depends where it is you need to go. I would expect the regional transit to start running bus feeders into each end which would enhance potential ridership.

Also, don't discount how many of these trips have friends or family on either end who could pick up and drop off. Wouldn't be that different from the PNRs that intercity coaches in Florida use.

There are some plans being floated for light rail in Orange County and in the St Pete and HART service areas, but more progress will have to be made locally for those to go forward.


----------



## Anderson

My understanding on the Orlampa project is that it would have stopped at:
-OIA

-I-Drive

-Disney (presuming it followed one alignment that was suggested)

-Lakeland

-Tampa

There _might_ have been a second Tampa-area stop, but that was about it for the stops, and IIRC it was going to be set up so that some trains would skip Lakeland. Now, a real mess would have emerged when there was inevitably an attempt to start up commuter services on that line, in part or in whole. Let's face it, there's likely to be plenty of growth in that general area...commuter rail proposals would be inevitable, all the moreso with a working line the state presumably controlled in the region.

One other nice thing about the Orlando airport is that there's a (very fine) Hyatt right there, too. It may not be a massive plus, but the presence of an "actual" on-site hotel that will presumably be connected to the train station via the airport certainly won't hurt with the later train arrivals/earlier departures.


----------



## VentureForth

Bus Nut said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for kindergarten walk boarding, that's gotta go. No need for it here!
> 
> 
> 
> What is so terrible about the train queue?
Click to expand...

There is nothing inherently wrong with the train queue - if you are a cow. I grew up in Japan where platforms that can accomodate 1000's of people were the norm. You buy your ticket, enter the platform, and when the train doors open, you board. Much the same as most commuter service here in the US works - only we can't seem to do that with Amtrak. Varying consists, manual doors (!), reserved tickets, but not reserved seating, sleepers on the back, sleepers on the front.... I can't figure out how foreign tourists here can figure it out.



Bus Nut said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, I still don't see the benefit in training into Orlando. What good is a fast journey if it takes an additional hour (public transit) or $50+ (taxi) or so to get the last 5 miles to where you're going?
> 
> 
> 
> The station is going to be colocated with the car rental outlets. That would work for business trips.
> 
> I expect when this service gets going some enterprising sorts will start feeder coach lines to the HSR station as well, unless the airport authority gets too greedy.
Click to expand...

Why take the train then? Sure, some won't fly - but you're not going to compete with MIA-MCO air traffic; you're competing with the car. I visited NYC a couple months ago and took the train because I wanted to. I didn't need a rental car; after 17 hours of train, public transit was sufficient. After riding a train for just over a couple hours, if you have to a) rent a car, or b) ride a bus, you begin to wonder why you took the train to begin with. Might as well have flown.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, the whole affair is further owned by these guys:http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=fig&ql=1Fortress Investment Group. It's a hedge fund-esque operation, so I'm guessing there's a lot of homework going on here. Also, who knows what (aside from FECR) might be owned by FIG in Florida...it's entirely possible that there's a complex set of transactions that are not entirely apparent at the present (i.e. FIG-run hedge funds owning real estate near station sites). It's also possible that this isn't the case; I have no idea which direction (above or below) the impetus is coming from. That said...from what I can tell, the project is rather competent.
> 
> On the OIA location for the terminal:
> 
> (1) SunRail is putting in a connection to the airport. This really should have been a no-brainer when SunRail started (for non-tourist trips, it's likely to be a slam dunk in terms of ridership...and for tourists not staying in the resort areas and/or locals going to the airport, it seems like a winner), but my understanding (possibly flawed) is that FEC and the Orlando folks are pushing ahead with it.
> 
> (2) OIA is where you get a rental car, can get a connection to Disney (for now), etc. In short, it's a good hub for traffic going both ways.
> 
> (3) It also makes sense in the context of wanting to go _through_ Orlando to Tampa rather than just going _to_ Orlando. Between the pre-existing HSR ROW plans and the ROW along the Beeline, there's not a bunch of expensive demolition work that'd be needed to knock a new line through town, nor a messy backup move into or out of the city (not to mention lost running time going in and out even if you could do a "quickie wye").
> 
> (4) In connection with (3), it seems likely that you're going to get the Tampa extension running by Disney...and if Disney follows through with their plans for the HSR line (i.e. to rework their shuttles and direct folks onto the train, likely just doing some limited baggage handling either at OIA or "just" at Disney "proper"), the ridership potential there (and indeed, potentially from Tampa as well) is substantial.
> 
> 
> 
> In point 4 you talked about potential ridership. Here is a table showing the projected intercity trips (all modes) between areas of Florida that was in the FDOT report labelled "2006 Florida Freight and Passenger Rail Plan" from page 5-22:
> 
> Table 5.9 Potential Travel Markets for Intercity Passenger Rail Service
> 
> Person-Trips (Millions)
> 
> Intercity Travel Markets
> 
> Existing Rail Corridor
> 
> to be Potentially Used
> 
> to Support Proposed
> 
> Markets Year 2000 Year 2020 Year 2040
> 
> Southeast Florida – Central Florida SFRC/CSXT 9.45 18.42 30.39
> 
> Southeast Florida – Tampa Bay SFRC/CSXT/I-4 4.85 8.54 14.09
> 
> Southeast Florida – Northeast Florida SFRC/FEC 1.30 2.28 3.77
> 
> Central Florida – Tampa Bay CSXT/I-4 14.16 29.16 48.12
> 
> Central Florida – Northeast Florida CSXT/I-4 3.54 7.32 12.08
> 
> Tampa Bay – Northeast Florida CSXT/I-4 1.55 2.91 4.80
> 
> Source: Florida Intercity Passenger Rail Vision Plan, Draft Executive Report, Florida Department of
> 
> Transportation, August 2006.
> 
> I know there was a later report (I can't seem to find it) that updated and expanded on this and that pretty much used the same passenger trip numbers. Also in the report on page 5-23 you will see that AAF is basically following what FDOT called the "Coastal Route" in their plans. It says to use the FECR, Beach Line, and I-4 ROW's. I am sure AAF is aware of all of these previous reports and studies - probably a big reason why they decided to research this project in the first place.
> 
> If you look at the numbers you will see that between South Florida and the combined TampaBay/Central Florida areas there are projected to be about 27 million trips in 2020. Tampa Bay to Orlando alone is also a big market too. I would use these numbers for relative comparison. But you can see how between Northeast Florida to everywhere else is about 12 million trips in 2020. This is a big reason why I personally think that AAF will work on connecting Tampa before Jacksonville, even though the cost to build will be higher. Orlando to Tampa is less than half the distance of Cocoa to Jacksonville, but requires new ROW (most likely will follow the exact same route as the proposed HSR) and tracks.
Click to expand...

I finally found the 2006 Florida Intercity Passenger Rail Vision Plan document:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

In the report on pages 11-12 it describes a "Coastal Route" which is basically what AAF is planning with the difference being a change in routes between WPB and MIA. The first phase had service to Jacksonville as well as Orlando. It is an old report but I believe that the basic ideas in it are still valid.


----------



## Nathanael

Brian_tampa said:


> I think they are also doing the holding area process due to concerns about liability. They don't want customers on the platforms just feet away from an active freight railroad!


Insanity. If there's actually a real liability issue there, then the government should make it go away: a railroad simply should not be liable for people jumping in front of trains, or being pushed. Unless they overcrowd the platforms... and if they're doing that, then holding pens are an even worse idea as they'll also overcrowd the holding pens and violate the fire code and so on...

Nothing wrong with ticket gates, of course. The part that's very very wrong is "passengers will only be allowed on the platform 5 minutes before train arrival".


----------



## Brian_tampa

Nathanael said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are also doing the holding area process due to concerns about liability. They don't want customers on the platforms just feet away from an active freight railroad!
> 
> 
> 
> Insanity. If there's actually a real liability issue there, then the government should make it go away: a railroad simply should not be liable for people jumping in front of trains, or being pushed. Unless they overcrowd the platforms... and if they're doing that, then holding pens are an even worse idea as they'll also overcrowd the holding pens and violate the fire code and so on...Nothing wrong with ticket gates, of course. The part that's very very wrong is "passengers will only be allowed on the platform 5 minutes before train arrival".
Click to expand...

I get it that it would be nice from a railfan's perspective that unlimited access to station platforms is desirable. However, most all US passenger rail operations are run by government entities. Typically, it is much harder to successfully sue a governent agency for negligence than it is to win a case against a private corporation. As a private company, it is completely within AAF's rights to control access to their railroad. I am not aware of any law here in Florida that would exempt AAF from legal liability in a situation where a customer was either pushed or accidentally fell into the path of a train while waiting to board a passenger train. I would assume that AAF will build their stations such that any occupied waiting room will allow room for the capacity of a fully sold out train. I am not saying that I agree with their policies, just that I can understand where they are coming from. 2013 is not the same as 1943 in this country! Common sense went out the window a long time ago. About the same time that lawyers started sueing on behalf of people that refused to take personal responsibility for their actions.


----------



## Brian_tampa

As expected, AAF's RRIF loan is for the Miami to West Palm Beach segment. It is for 632 million dollars. Additional RRIF loan applications are expected for other sections. This link is to a solicitation by the GAO for "financial assessment services" related to the loan application. I assume that this means that AAF's loan application has made progress within the FRA. I had heard a couple of weeks ago that they had overcome the "buy American" hurdle that DesertXpress was unable to clear. I hope this means that AAF is one step closer to construction on this segment.

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=27aa15722f4bfe86b874abf0b4087f6a&tab=core&_cview=0


----------



## me_little_me

Hey, folks, we're talking Florida here! They will probably use the Disney method. Everyone lines up to get on and is put in rows by each door. Meanwhile those getting off the train line up before the train arrives. As soon as the train stops, everyone getting off goes out one set of doors on one side of the train then immediately the doors open for the new arrivals.

Handicapped have a special line so they enter before the regular customers.

"Those going to WPB please line up under the Mickey sign. Orlando passengers line up where Goofy is". :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


----------



## VentureForth

"Please stand clear of the doors. Por favor, mantenganse alejadro de las puertas."


----------



## Anderson

me_little_me said:


> Hey, folks, we're talking Florida here! They will probably use the Disney method. Everyone lines up to get on and is put in rows by each door. Meanwhile those getting off the train line up before the train arrives. As soon as the train stops, everyone getting off goes out one set of doors on one side of the train then immediately the doors open for the new arrivals.
> Handicapped have a special line so they enter before the regular customers.
> 
> "Those going to WPB please line up under the Mickey sign. Orlando passengers line up where Goofy is". :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


Eh, Orlando will be under Donald. Security belongs under Goofy. :giggle:


----------



## Brian_tampa

Looks like the preliminary ticket costs for MIA to ORL trip on AAF will be around 85 dollars. MIA to WPB will be around 20 dollars. Here is the link to miaimtodaynews.com article:

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/130822/story2.shtml

Also I recently saw an article where AAF is bidding on a vacant lot (2 city blocks) to build a 23 story residential/office/retail center one block west of the MIA station. Here is the link from exmiami.org at:

http://exmiami.org/index.php/all-aboard-florida-cra-application-hints-at-downtown-station-plans/

The Details are here:

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/161596245

It is a 110 million dollar development. See the picture on page 13 of the scribd.com file. It shows several large buildings on the site of the MIA station. The tall building (in white) to the far north is a new proposed convention center and hotel to be connected via walkways to the station. That is a being developed by another developer. I believe the rest of the "white ghost" buildings are part of FECI developments related to AAF. Also note the letter of recommendation on page 80 from Bank of America that FECI has "sufficient liquidity in the high 8 figures" at that bank alone.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A new contract between OOCEA and the Deseret Ranches has been written and to be presented for approval at the OOCEA board meeting next week. This is the Declaration document:

https://www.oocea.com/Portals/0/2013%20board%20meetings/August%2028/Deseret%20-%20Declaration.pdf

It appears that alot has changed since the first agreement last month. It seems that Deseret Ranches wants the right to construct an "Independent Track" for the purpose of freight and/or commuter rail services. No more than 2 passenger tracks would be allowed in the ROW. However, AAF would be allowed to use spurs that connect to the freight track, if those are built. The way it reads, AAF would not be allowed to carry passengers between Brevard county and the Orlando airport without prior approval from Deseret Ranches. Presumably that would happen if they thought it would benefit their development plans. Not sure how the OOCEA fits in with commuter service, as they have recently claimed that AAF will take away toll revenue by diverting traffic onto e train. However, FECR or CSX could be allowed to operate freight service! Sounds like ALOT of horse trading back and forth between Deseret, OOCEA, and FECI (representing the interests of both AAF and FECR).

There is also the contract document that spells out the payment of 12 million for the property by OOCEA. What is interesting is that it no longer specifically mentions AAF in regards to who pays the 58 million dollar amount to be put into escrow for the future expansion of the Osceola County Parkway. That extension would greatly benefit the Deseret Ranches development plans.

https://www.oocea.com/Portals/0/2013%20board%20meetings/August%2028/Deseret%20-%20Contract%20of%20Sale.pdf


----------



## Anderson

It sounds like Deseret Ranches is willing to put some serious money behind potential commuter service and associated developments. Considering the amount of money that they likely have at their disposal (and the value of parts of their land in conjunction with development like that), I'm not shocked.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Tri-Rail is $6.90 plus $2 Metrorail to get to downtown Miami...so $8.90 total. Hopefully AAF has enough amenities in addition to a one seat ~60 minute ride from West Palm Beach to downtown Miami (according to Google Maps, Tri-Rail+Metrorail is 140 minutes total and driving is 70 minutes + whatever delays from rush hour traffic) to attract the business commuter. Though, I imagine WiFi (Tri-Rail experimented with this in one of their cars, but I'm guessing it ended up being too expensive since it was never fully implemented), meal service, and arriving right at downtown without having to pay for parking will be pretty darn appealing.

Looks like Amtrak fares from Miami to Orlando are about half the price of what AAF expects to charge, but AAF will also be 2 hours faster (4 if you're taking the Star) and offer much more frequent service. Expedia has the cheapest flight from MIA to MCO at about $140 (plus whatever fees airlines charge). So extremely competitive there.

Hopefully the project is a success, and I'm very optimistic about the West Palm Beach to Miami market. I love riding trains (when I ride Amtrak, I ride the Star if I can, so I can get the extra 2 hours of train time), but transferring from Tri-Rail to Metrorail to get to downtown Miami is awful! Every time I do the transfer, I end up missing the Metrorail train that arrives a few minutes after the southbound Tri-Rail train, because I spent the time I could've taken to walk up the stairs, trying to buy a ticket just to enter the turnstiles (I'm an occasional rider, and the new E-Card system which supposedly eliminates the need to buy another ticket is too confusing, so I always get a paper Tri-Rail ticket). Now I'm stuck waiting for the next train during off peak hours (about 10-15 minutes), then another 20 minute ride to Government Center (which feels like an eternity making stops every minute), and finally changing to Metromover. I'll gladly spend the extra $12 or so for a one seat ride to downtown, then make the (free) transfer to Metromover.


----------



## Anderson

Two observations:
(1) The corridor is roughly comparable to the services in VA both in terms of the market situation and in terms of travel times and road conditions. The only difference is that FEC is going to be a good bit faster.

(2) Actually, in terms of distance and speed, the FEC is going to be on par with the Acelas (and would probably beat them out but for being stuck with "only" 79 MPH service for a decent part of the route).

(3) FEC's revenue is presumably somewhere in the $300 million range right now. It can't be over $400 million (that would likely push it to Class I), though from what I can tell there's some fuzzy room between the "automatic class I" range and the "automatic class II" range to avoid roads switching back and forth. This is relevant because it looks like if the service runs as planned, passenger revenue could be quite close to 50% of the railroad's income ($85*3 million passengers is $255m), and that it will likely pass 50% should Tampa come to pass. From what I've heard, historically that's almost unheard of.

I mention point 3 because if you add in access fees and whatnot for a possible Tri-Rail service as well, I think there's a good chance that FEC might end up making a transition to being primarily a passenger rail company running significant freight on the side rather than the other way around, at least in terms of the company's main revenue source. How profitable the passenger service is (in terms of operating income and in terms of capital costs alike) is to be seen...but I think there's the potential to see a very unusual transition here in historical terms. Then again, there aren't too many "independent" railroads that have the majority of their right-of-way in both the condition that FEC's is (straight, few curves, etc.) and in an area as built-up as the areas along FEC's line.


----------



## Paulus

Not all the passengers are going the full length; they were anticipating total fares around $145 million. Operating revenue in 2012 was $246.8 million with a net loss of 13.3 million.


----------



## Anderson

Point taken, but they also seem to have a lower passenger count than I had thought:



> With one-way tickets estimated in the $100 range, that would mean the Coral Gables-based company is expecting to carry nearly 1.5 million passengers between Central and South Florida within three years of its inaugural trip in 2015.



Moreover, I'm looking at Tampa-Orlando-Miami, not just Orlando-Miami...and it seems, at least from what I read in the article, that I got the ratio roughly right, just not what I needed to multiply the ratio by. $145m/1.5m is about $96/passenger.


----------



## Paulus

Anderson said:


> Point taken, but they also seem to have a lower passenger count than I had thought:
> 
> 
> 
> With one-way tickets estimated in the $100 range, that would mean the Coral Gables-based company is expecting to carry nearly 1.5 million passengers between Central and South Florida within three years of its inaugural trip in 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moreover, I'm looking at Tampa-Orlando-Miami, not just Orlando-Miami...and it seems, at least from what I read in the article, that I got the ratio roughly right, just not what I needed to multiply the ratio by. $145m/1.5m is about $96/passenger.
Click to expand...

That's just the reporter making the exact same mistake.


----------



## me_little_me

Isn't that about the same proportion as the difference between NJT or SEPTA or Metro-North vs Amtrak where both the commuter and Amtrak trains go between the same cities?

e.g. in July, we went between PHL and Paoli on SEPTA and the regular fare was, I believe, $4 each way (we paid $1 as seniors) vs $8 for Amtrak (-15% for seniors).



chrsjrcj said:


> Tri-Rail is $6.90 plus $2 Metrorail to get to downtown Miami...so $8.90 total. Hopefully AAF has enough amenities in addition to a one seat ~60 minute ride from West Palm Beach to downtown Miami (according to Google Maps, Tri-Rail+Metrorail is 140 minutes total and driving is 70 minutes + whatever delays from rush hour traffic) to attract the business commuter. Though, I imagine WiFi (Tri-Rail experimented with this in one of their cars, but I'm guessing it ended up being too expensive since it was never fully implemented), meal service, and arriving right at downtown without having to pay for parking will be pretty darn appealing.


----------



## Brian_tampa

The wonders of the Google Wayback machine! I happen to be reading today, again, AAF's website and their FAQ page. It struck me that they had changed the locomotive description to now say:

_All Aboard Florida will select modern equipment that is compliant with the Federal Railroad Administration, is certified to operate at higher sustained speeds, and utilizes clean-diesel engines that meet stringent Tier 4 federal emission standards._

Now, as of August 1, 2013 on the Google Wayback cache webpage the AAF website was saying "to meet stringent Tier 3 ... standards". I wonder if this change is because the startup date has slipped and they recognize that they will need to buy 2015 MY locomotives in any case or does it mean AAF has now made a recent decision on the train sets and they can finalize the Tier standards level their equipment will be attaining?


----------



## jis

Tier 3 allows them to potentially buy equipment that needs much less modification to meet FRA requirements than meeting the old Tier 1 standard.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Tier 3 allows them to potentially buy equipment that needs much less modification to meet FRA requirements than meeting the old Tier 1 standard.


It is my understanding AAF will buy all new equipment - meaning it will be manufactured to the model year standards it is produced in. And if it is made in 2015, then any locomotives manufactured that year will have to meet Tier 4 standards. I am aware of only one other order for passenger locomotives that meet Tier 4, I believe that was for the Southern California commuter rail operation. Here is the link, and F125 Spirit series can run at 125mph.


----------



## Anderson

It's interesting...assuming 3m passengers and $145m in ticket revenue you get $48.33 in PPR. This is obviously a rough number, but it's interesting because it implies not only a lot of WPB-MIA traffic, but a huge share of the traffic at rates well under $100/ticket.

Even absent a Tri-Rail contract, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see some sort of service addition WPB-MIA, simply due to the size of that market if this /does/ take off as a high-end, high-speed commuter service. Of interest on /this/ front is the following:
-Assuming one million passengers from the Miami area to Orlando at $100 each, you remove $100m from the $145m and remove 1m passengers from an estimate of 3m. This gives you 2m passengers on $45m in revenue, for PPR of $22.50.
-Even if we lowball the Orlando ticket price average down to $80, this would offer an average price of $32.50 (presumably inclusive of some higher WPB-ORL and whatnot fares).

Tri-Rail is currently $6.90 one-way on a weekday. To put a quick comparison down, a Trenton-NYP one-way ticket on NJT is $15.50. TRE-NYP on Amtrak is $31 with a two-week advance purchase, or $41/59/72/82 under normal conditions. This translates as $14 for an advance purchase on FEC, up to something in the $35 range. BC is another $20 for the trip. One other thing: Amtrak only drops a couple of minutes off the express NJT trains (though it's closer to 30 minutes off most of the non-expresses, to say nothing of the late-night locals). To my knowledge, Tri-Rail has no equivalent to those expresses...all the trains take around 100 minutes end-to-end (going to the Miami Airport stop from WPB).

So, for the FEC, seeing a fare of $20-ish for a ride that saves nearly an hour getting into downtown once you deal with other transfers seems likely to succeed. It also seems possible that they'd be able to sell a modest number of tickets MIA-FLL or FLL-WPB at a similar price...time savings would be closer to half an hour, but (A) you eliminate a transfer and (B) it's still half an hour or more in a lot of cases.


----------



## Aaron

jis said:


> Tier 3 allows them to potentially buy equipment that needs much less modification to meet FRA requirements than meeting the old Tier 1 standard.


It sounds like you're talking about the FRA crashworthiness standards, and Brian_tampa was talking about EPA diesel emission standards. It's confusing, because they both use "Tier 1", "Tier 2", etc.

The newest diesel emissions standards from the EPA are "Tier 4", and it's my understanding that a locomotive built in MY 2015 would have to be compliant with them.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A nice informational article about AAF and FECI. One interesting new bit of info from AAF themselves: as I and many have suspected, the interest in the MIA to Orlando route shown by construction/operator teams bidding on the failed HSR project between Tampa and Orlando was what got FECI to think about creating a passenger service for themselves.

http://www.floridatrend.com/article/16021/ticket-to-ride-on-fecis-all-aboard-florida?page=1


----------



## jphjaxfl

Brian_tampa said:


> A nice informational article about AAF and FECI. One interesting new bit of info from AAF themselves: as I and many have suspected, the interest in the MIA to Orlando route shown by construction/operator teams bidding on the failed HSR project between Tampa and Orlando was what got FECI to think about creating a passenger service for themselves.
> http://www.floridatrend.com/article/16021/ticket-to-ride-on-fecis-all-aboard-florida?page=1


Great Article, Brian, Thanks for sharing. I am looking forward to riding the train in a couple of years.


----------



## jphjaxfl

If the AAF/FECI model is successful, ,it may be tried in other areas with similar demographics. This is not a freight railroad operating passenger trains, rather, a development company that has trackage rights developing needed transportation system and the areas that access the transportation system. There is another post about "Could this save Amtrak? regarding development around Amtrak Stations. FECI is really thinking outside the box with AAF. Is Amtrak capable of doing that?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jphjaxfl said:


> If the AAF/FECI model is successful, ,it may be tried in other areas with similar demographics. This is not a freight railroad operating passenger trains, rather, a development company that has trackage rights developing needed transportation system and the areas that access the transportation system. There is another post about "Could this save Amtrak? regarding development around Amtrak Stations. FECI is really thinking outside the box with AAF. Is Amtrak capable of doing that?


Something like Baltimore?


----------



## cirdan

jphjaxfl said:


> FECI is really thinking outside the box with AAF. Is Amtrak capable of doing that?


FECI is spending their own money and developing their own real estate.

Amtrak doesn't have that much real estate, and if they set out to buy the real estate first, we would very soon have all the Amtrak haters shouting and jumping about tax dollars being used for such a venture. I think it's a "you lose if you do and you lose if you don't" scenario.


----------



## jphjaxfl

I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jphjaxfl said:


> Could they do more with what they do own?


Ummmm... like they are doing in Baltimore? (This is a link)

Why do I have deja vu all over again? :giggle:


----------



## MattW

I don't think the circumstances that allow FECI to profitably build this system exist anywhere else. Amtrak owns bits and pieces of real estate, but not much. There also aren't any other freight railroads that run through as dense an area as the Foridian East Coast AND own enough real estate to make the train worth it.


----------



## Anderson

Well, there's also the lack of meaningful Amtrak competition as well. I suspect there are places that, if they wanted to, the Class Is could make a run of some corridor services and make them work...but in most cases, it's not like Amtrak would be interested in "getting out of the way" for them.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anderson said:


> I suspect there are places that, if they wanted to, the Class Is could make a run of some corridor services and make them work...


Or maybe they still feel like James Hill, 'The Empire Builder,' did, who compared passenger trains to the male teat. 

He said that neither were functional or particularly pretty! :giggle:


----------



## George Harris

jphjaxfl said:


> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.


Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.

On the other hand, that being said, there were a lot of things they could have done better. I remember the first time I saw it in 1970 with their many manned towers being just one example, my though was, "Suddenly it is 1920."


----------



## Anderson

George Harris said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> On the other hand, that being said, there were a lot of things they could have done better. I remember the first time I saw it in 1970 with their many manned towers being just one example, my though was, "Suddenly it is 1920."
Click to expand...

Well, and in the last 40-50 years there have been a lot of shifts. I'm not sure what the situation was with the NEC for the Pennsy in the 1920s (or 1940s/early 50s), but by the time you got to the late 60s you had a hard feedback loop going that sent ridership off a cliff due to bad track, rough rides, and an inability to maintain pricing points. High labor costs and bad maintenance practices didn't help, either, and neither did the proliferation of expressways.


----------



## me_little_me

George Harris said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
Click to expand...

This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?

Per Wikipedia:

In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.


----------



## Brian_tampa

An interesting account of travel on Amtrak in south Florida and general info on AAF at biscaynetimes.com

http://www.biscaynetimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1579%3Alife-in-the-rail-world&catid=46%3Afeatures&Itemid=1

the writer has obviously done his homework and pretty much sums up where AAF is at now.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

From miamitodaynews.com:



> ... according to Rusty Roberts, vice president of corporate development [for FECI]... trains will be less than 1,000 feet long, have two locomotives and seven passenger cars...


This is the first I've heard this, though I'm not sure if it is buried in this thread somewhere.


----------



## Brian_tampa

The Davy Crockett said:


> From http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/130822/story2.shtml]miamitodaynews.com[/url]:
> 
> 
> 
> ... according to Rusty Roberts, vice president of corporate development [for FECI]... trains will be less than 1,000 feet long, have two locomotives and seven passenger cars...
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first I've heard this, though I'm not sure if it is buried in this thread somewhere.
Click to expand...

Yes it was buried alright! It was in the draft EA report on page 19 from last November (and possibly in other documents as well). See the footnote from page 19 below:
Link to EA report:

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/EnvironmentalAssessment_AAF_Passenger_Rail_Project_from_WPB_to_Miami.pdf

Page 19 footnote:

"Note that the length of 725 feet contemplates a train set consisting of two locomotives, each 65 feet long, and seven passenger cars, each 85 feet long, while the approximately 900 feet contemplates the possible addition of two passenger cars to the set."

I have seen different AAF spokesmen talk about 7 and 9 car trains. Also, they have mentioned running special event trains as well. I believe the standard platform design calls for 1000 foot long platforms for AAF trains. I don't recall where I read that off hand.


----------



## rrdude

me_little_me said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
> 
> Per Wikipedia:
> 
> In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.
Click to expand...

That's a wee bit of simplification, as the PC was formed well b4 the Staggers Act took effect, and if you really follow the lineage to Conrail, you'll see they turned things around, system-wide, quite handsomly


----------



## cirdan

me_little_me said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
> Per Wikipedia:
> 
> In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.
Click to expand...

 I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
> Per Wikipedia:
> 
> In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.
Click to expand...

 But the Pennsy of the 60s had the famed GG-1 which is the most idolized locomotive ever.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

VentureForth said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> But the Pennsy of the 60s had the famed GG-1 which is the most idolized locomotive ever.
Click to expand...

Actually the GG-1 was a product of the PARR of the '30s as it went into service in 1935.


----------



## MikefromCrete

What's the PARR? The proper reporting marks are PRR.

The Pennsylvania Railroad was the "standard railroad" of the early part of the 20th century, a massive operation that included freight, long distance passenger throughout the Northeast and Midwest and commuter operations in some of the nation's largest cities. It built iconic passenger stations everywhere it went. By the late 1960's, it was on its knees due to governmental regulations and all those passenger trains. Nevertheless, it participated in the Metroliner program, which set the tone for passenger operations ever since. Never look down on the Pennsy, it was a great railroad.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

MikefromCrete said:


> What's the PARR?


And yet it would seem someone figured out the meaning all on their own!


----------



## Anderson

That's PARR for the course.


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
> Per Wikipedia:
> 
> In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.
Click to expand...

My comment had nothing to do with Pennsy of the '20s and 30s. I was responding to the comment about "at the time of the advent of Amtrak". They dumped their passenger service but couldn't even make it in freight. Most RRs claimed the passenger service was losing money. Obviously, for the Pennsy, everything was losing money.


----------



## MikefromCrete

me_little_me said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that FECI and Amtrak are 2 different entities, but Amtrak owns facilities on the NEC and Chicago Union Station. Could they do more with what they do own? Are there other FECI models that might develop some rail transportation systems such as CAHSR, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Pennsylvania Railroad could not turn a profit on the Northeast Corridor I would regard the chance of anybody else doing so as essentially nil. I think they were close to break even on variable costs, but at the time of the advent of Amtrak were in need of major investment in both equipment and fixed facilities to keep going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the same Pennsylvania Railroad that couldn't even make it as a freight line, right?
> Per Wikipedia:
> 
> In 1968, PRR merged with rival NYC to form the Penn Central Transportation Company, which filed for bankruptcy within two years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it's wrong to equate the Pennsy of the 1920s and 1930s with that of the late 1960s. It had become a different beast entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My comment had nothing to do with Pennsy of the '20s and 30s. I was responding to the comment about "at the time of the advent of Amtrak". They dumped their passenger service but couldn't even make it in freight. Most RRs claimed the passenger service was losing money. Obviously, for the Pennsy, everything was losing money.
Click to expand...

No railroad in the Northeast was making money in the late 1960's, that's what brought about Penn Central and later, Conrail. The fortunes of railroads changed with the Staggers Act which eliminated a lot of government oversight and allowed railroads to negotiate freight rates.


----------



## Anderson

One thing to remember is that a lot of the problems with northeastern freights is that they were stuck keeping up hundreds, if not thousands, of miles of little-used tracks because they couldn't get an abandonment approved. Of the major railroads in the northeast in the mid-60s, the New Haven was probably the farthest up the creek...it's a good question whether a Penn Central without the New Haven might have been able to lurch along until Agnes, for example.

The other issue is that when the PC went bankrupt, they got to stop paying on a lot of loans...but their counterparties in the region had also loaned them money (there were loans back and forth) and _they_ still had to pay the PC on those loans. This was, IIRC, a good part of what did in either the Reading or the Erie Lackawanna.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Looks like Tri-Rail on the FEC (and FEC on Tri-Rail) is actually happening:

Federal officials on Thursday announced they are kicking in $13.75 million toward the $47.25 million cost of connecting the Florida East Coast Railway and Tri-Rail in Hialeah and West Palm Beach. The state and three rail entities have already agreed to pay for the rest of it.

The connections potentially would allow some freight trains leaving Miami to switch to the Tri-Rail tracks, which affect 72 crossings from Miami to West Palm Beach, compared with more than 200 crossings on the FEC.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/palm-beach/fl-fec-tri-rail-connection-20130905,0,7874760.story

Edited to add:

Some different details in today's Palm Beach Post.

FDOT pays $29 million

The feds pay $13.75 million

SFRTA pays $2.5 million

FEC pays $1 million

CSX pays $1 million

In West Palm Beach, phase 1 would be rehabilitating a currently unused connection that runs along 27th street. This could be ready by July 2015. Phase 2 would be a new connector along 25th street, that would allow northbound trains to go from Tri-Rail to the FEC. That would be ready by January 2017. Here is satellite view of the area: http://goo.gl/maps/gT07r


----------



## jis

Some more details of costs and where the money is projected to come from:

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/09/11/all-aboard-florida-rail-and-real.html?page=all

and here is part 2:

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/09/12/all-aboard-putting-in-just-5-of-24b.html?page=all


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Towns along the FEC have realized recently that they will need to pay the costs of upgrading 92 road crossings of the tracks. The City of Vero Beach has formed a temporary commission to get "public and business input" on this matter.

Folks who are following the progress of AAF might enjoy this pdf file of the Addendum to the City Council Meeting Agenda from 9/17/13 for the creation of the temporary commission.


----------



## Anderson

Just wondering: Are the towns on the hook because they built the crossings after the railroad went in?


----------



## Brian_tampa

The Davy Crockett said:


> Towns along the FEC have realized recently that they will need to pay the costs of upgrading 92 road crossings of the tracks. The City of Vero Beach has formed a temporary commission to get "public and business input" on this matter.
> 
> Folks who are following the progress of AAF might enjoy this pdf file of the Addendum to the City Council Meeting Agenda from 9/17/13 for the creation of the temporary commission.


Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/

***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.

All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.

“We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***

I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Brian_tampa said:


> Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/
> 
> ***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.
> 
> All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.
> 
> “We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***
> 
> I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.


Seems to me like a wise call by AAF, as working with the counties and cities AAF will pass through is certainly in their best interest.

Many in Vero Beach were looking forward to the prospect of Amtrak stopping in town. Now they are going to have lots of pax trains - but they will just be highballing through town, and the prospects for the Meteor are seen as waning. As you probably know, Vero's and especially Indian River County's politics, are 'right of center,' and many there don't see value in ANY pax trains - particularly ones that are seen as an inconvenience with no benefits - taxpayer supported or not. I'm sure the prospect of taxpayers paying for the upgrades raised more than a few hairs, even if I large percentage of the population don't have many hairs on their balding heads. :giggle:


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anderson said:


> Just wondering: Are the towns on the hook because they built the crossings after the railroad went in?


That is certainly how it seems, as it sounds that the roads were put in under easements granted by the FEC.


----------



## Anderson

The Davy Crockett said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last Thursday AAF told the WPB MPO that AAF will pay for safety improvements at railroad crossings. Here is the link to a Palm Beach Post newspaper article:
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-to-pay-for-safety-improvements-/nZ2jn/
> 
> ***FECI Executive Vice President Jose Gonzalez on Thursday told the Palm Beach Metropolitan Planning Organization that All Aboard Florida saw the community conversation “playing out as a negative” when the company believes the express passenger rail is a positive project for Southeast Florida.
> 
> All Aboard Florida will upgrade crossings to safety levels needed for the passenger rail during its track upgrades, Gonzalez said, and not hold cities responsible for that work. Afterward, municipalities will resume responsibility for maintenance.
> 
> “We see this as a true partnership,” Gonzalez said.***
> 
> I guess the negative publicity might have played a role in this change of heart. Or perhaps the ongoing EIS work also influenced this decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me like a wise call by AAF, as working with the counties and cities AAF will pass through is certainly in their best interest.
> 
> Many in Vero Beach were looking forward to the prospect of Amtrak stopping in town. Now they are going to have lots of pax trains - but they will just be highballing through town, and the prospects for the Meteor are seen as waning. As you probably know, Vero's and especially Indian River County's politics, are 'right of center,' and many there don't see value in ANY pax trains - particularly ones that are seen as an inconvenience with no benefits - taxpayer supported or not. I'm sure the prospect of taxpayers paying for the upgrades raised more than a few hairs, even if I large percentage of the population don't have many hairs on their balding heads. :giggle:
Click to expand...

It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anderson said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.


That would certainly help Amtrak's cause, but what about AAF being concerned about late s/b Meteors (and Stars?) slowing them down? Yes, FEC will dispatch, but...


----------



## Anderson

The Davy Crockett said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.
> 
> 
> 
> That would certainly help Amtrak's cause, but what about AAF being concerned about late s/b Meteors (and Stars?) slowing them down? Yes, FEC will dispatch, but...
Click to expand...

It depends on where Amtrak returns to the A-line...I can't recall where the planned connection is (only that it exists). The other aspect is that if Amtrak is stopping at set-off sidings, then a late Silver that was properly out-of-slot would just get parked at Cocoa until the relevant AAF train went by and cleared the blocks, slot in behind them, and proceed accordingly. The other option is a substantial pad at JAX SB, something that might be desirable in a vacuum.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> It's going to be interesting to see how the two plans (FEC/AAF and Amtrak) play out. I suspect that both will happen if Amtrak agrees to be R/D south of Cocoa (or thereabouts), or at least south of WPB.


But south of WPB isn't Amtrak going to be on Tri-Rail? Why would FEC care whether it is R/D or not on some other railroad? If it has to be R/D south of Coca, how will people at Melbourne for example get to Miami using rail? Afterall FEC is not allowed to stop there on their Orlando service without having an argument first with the Florida DOT.


----------



## Anderson

(1) South of WPB, Amtrak does R/D as it is, so it would be a continuuation of present practice. The only way that would change is if Amtrak were to add a state-sponsored train on the route...and that seems highly unlikely at the moment. I'd bet on a state-sponsored FEC/AAF-label train before I would a state-sponsored Amtrak train on the route.
(2) More to the point, if FEC expects to do business WPB-MIA, it seems likely that even if Amtrak is running a few blocks away (and that's really what it is in a few places...it's not like they're running miles and miles away from one another) they'd be seen as a competitor for the same traffic.
(3) That said, I could see Amtrak being allowed full service at stops between Cocoa and WPB absent FEC serving those stops. The question is whether FEC would want to sweep in a few years later and add at least off-peak service at some of those stops as well (or for that matter, start running trains all the way to JAX once the stations have been taken care of).


----------



## jis

Sure Amtrak could maintain status quo. My point was that there is no real reason for FEC to care what Amtrak does there.

I doubt that one or two Amtrak trains a day would be considered competition for anything in the way of frequent commuter service that FEC would presumably run between WPB and Miami. It would be sort of like NJT thinking of Amtrak as competition on the NEC. They don't. Or for that matter Amtrak NEC Regional/Acela thinking of Amtrak LD trains as competition. They shouldn't if they were separate organizations. They serve substantially different markets with relatively minor overlap.

For adding service to stations north of WPB to Orlando FEC will have to first negotiate with the Florida DOT regarding impact on Beach Line tolls. That is the agreement that they signed for getting to use easement along the Beach Line.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I doubt that one or two Amtrak trains a day would be considered competition for anything in the way of frequent commuter service that FEC would presumably run between WPB and Miami. It would be sort of like NJT thinking of Amtrak as competition on the NEC. They don't. Or for that matter Amtrak NEC Regional/Acela thinking of Amtrak LD trains as competition. They shouldn't if they were separate organizations. They serve substantially different markets with relatively minor overlap.


And even that minor overlap could hypothetically be turned to something positive if the will to cooperate existed.

Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.


----------



## John Bredin

cirdan said:


> Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.


Even better if the codesharing was mutual, with Amtrak's website and agents selling FEC tickets and showing FEC schedules as well as FEC's system showing connecting Amtrak schedules & ticketing. The codeshare would be as much for people traveling by Amtrak to Florida and then riding FEC to their final destination -- FEC as an Amtrak Thruway -- as for marketing a combined service within the FEC corridor.

As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be *fully* linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.


----------



## Brian_tampa

John Bredin said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just as on another thread we discussed Amtrak opening LD trains for journeys entirely inside the NEC, in a hypothetical world Amtrak and FEC might work together and FEC could take over the marketing and ticketing of Amtrak journeys entirely on its own corridor, thus making things easier for the passenger who can buy all tickets and get all schedule information from a single interface rather than having to check two unconnected sources. Think of it like a codeshare if you like. Of course their booking systems would have to be somehow linked so Amtrak knows which of its seats FEC has sold.
> 
> 
> 
> Even better if the codesharing was mutual, with Amtrak's website and agents selling FEC tickets and showing FEC schedules as well as FEC's system showing connecting Amtrak schedules & ticketing. The codeshare would be as much for people traveling by Amtrak to Florida and then riding FEC to their final destination -- FEC as an Amtrak Thruway -- as for marketing a combined service within the FEC corridor.
> As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be *fully* linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.
Click to expand...

Part of AAF's successful request last October for exemption from STB oversight was that they promised not to connect with Amtrak in any way, including cross ticketing. See page 3 of this link for the STB's formal decision back in late December.
http://www.stb.dot.gov/decisions/readingroom.nsf/UNID/3742BD042B141CAA85257ADB0079675B/$file/42728.pdf

Quoting from the STB decision:

***

In its motion to dismiss, AAF asserts that we do not have jurisdiction over its proposed construction and operation of the Line because this intrastate transportation will not be part of the interstate rail network.4 See 49 U.S.C. § 10501(a)(2)(A). It explains that the proposed Line would not connect with Amtrak or any other interstate passenger rail service provider, and that AAF has no plans to provide through ticketing with Amtrak or any other interstate rail passenger operator for transportation beyond Florida. AAF also states that, although the Lines tracks may physically cross over or connect with the adjacent tracks within the FECR freight corridor, AAF would not participate in any intrastate or interstate freight movements, and the Line would not connect with the tracks of any freight railroad other than FECR.

***

AAF does not appear to want to be associated with any part of Amtrak. They desire to be a separate entity. Maybe way in the future they will, but then they would have to explain that to the STB. In my opinion, Amtrak's pitiful service to Florida of only 2 trains each way per day will have no impact on AAF's overall passenger count if and when AAF expands to Jacksonville.


----------



## jis

I think it is also true that AAF's agreement with STB has no bearing on what FEC may or may not do with Amtrak relative to any commuter or other service it might run outside the purview of AAF. The AAF agreements do not preclude FEC from entering into separate contracts with Amtrak as long as it does not involve AAF in any way.


----------



## jebr

John Bredin said:


> As you say, the FEC & Amtrak systems (internal reservations & website) would have to be *fully* linked. As I understand it, the Amtrak website can't sell Thruway tickets, but only live & phone agents can.


Minor point: The Amtrak website can sell Thruway tickets on at least some corridors. I know my connection in Salt Lake to Greyhound (which was codeshared as an Amtrak Thruway on the route to Idaho) was bought online last year without a problem...picked my tickets up at the ticket counter.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> AAF also states that, although the Lines tracks may physically cross over or connect with the adjacent tracks within the FECR freight corridor, AAF would not participate in any intrastate or interstate freight movements, and the Line would not connect with the tracks of any freight railroad other than FECR.
> 
> ***


 That sounds extremely restrictive to me.

Are there any other examples of succesuful standalone freight rail carriers not exchanging traffic with other lines, other than maybe single-user services such as mining and industrial railroads? It sounds like a strange business decison to me.


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## jphjaxfl

The STB ruling applies to All Aboard Florida which will operate the proposed Miami to Orlando passenger trains. Florida East Coast's Freight Railroad currently does and will continue to interchange Freight with other Railroads. There is a large interchange with NS in Jacksonville. We have to remember there are 3 seperate entities: AAF which is developing and will operate the new passenger trains s, FECI which is a real estate developer and FEC railroad which will host AAF's passenger trains.


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## The Davy Crockett

I got an email update from AAF today, here is what I found to be the most interesting part:



> We are on track to share several exciting milestones by the end of 2013, including our rolling stock manufacturer and new members of our senior management team. In December, we will host another series of public meetings as part of our environmental process that’s currently underway. We also plan to announce the Fort Lauderdale station site soon and break ground on the rail infrastructure by the end of this year.


----------



## Nathanael

FWIW, the STB is definitely regretting the AAF ruling, and I wouldn't count on it sticking, especially if there's even a minor change in the AAF plans. I don't think this will have much effect, though. The STB has signalled that future cases will be handled like the California case: the STB will assert jurisdiction, but disclaim any need for significant oversight.


----------



## Anderson

Just wondering why the regret...and, of course, the source.

Edit: If they were to try and use a minor change of plans (starting time, number of frequencies, etc.) to try and assert jurisdiction, I suspect they'll end up in court rather quickly. Even a Tampa extension as a reason would likely trigger some sort of legal row.


----------



## Brian_tampa

The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf

The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.
> 
> http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf
> 
> The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.


Actually, the agreements don't flatly prohibit freight operations...they just require AAF to get permission from OOCEA first. Also, the odds of AAF actually running freight themselves seem pretty low...it'd be FEC doing that.

Of course, this raises a billion-dollar question: Whose tracks are they, anyway? Is FEC going to own the Orlando-Cocoa tracks? Will it be AAF, under an agreement with FEC? Someone else?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> The GOAA Board will consider the AAF agreement at their October meeting. This is good news as now AAF will have agreements with all affected agencies in order to build the new route into Orlando.http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_agenda.pdf
> 
> The STB looks at whether the AAF proposed service is in the public interest and benefits the public at large and if AAF is involved in interstate commerce. Remember the predecessor to the STB was the ICC (interstate commerce commission). The STB will not reverse it's decision unless AAF does something completely contrary to what their petition promised, ie something like connecting directly with Amtrak or start running freight trains on the new Orlando route. They can't anyway because their lease agreements prohibit freight operations anyways. Unlike CA HSR, AAF will not be associated in any way with interstate passenger travel. That is why the STB ruled they did not have jurisdiction over AAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the agreements don't flatly prohibit freight operations...they just require AAF to get permission from OOCEA first. Also, the odds of AAF actually running freight themselves seem pretty low...it'd be FEC doing that.
> Of course, this raises a billion-dollar question: Whose tracks are they, anyway? Is FEC going to own the Orlando-Cocoa tracks? Will it be AAF, under an agreement with FEC? Someone else?
Click to expand...

That is true but the contracts as currently agreed upon do not allow for freight operation. Also remember Deseret Ranches has an option to construct an "independent track" for freight seperate from AAF. I doubt if GOAA or OOCEA would want freight trains going through the airport. GOAA seems very protective of what they call the "Orlando Experience" at the airport. The tracks and infrastructure will be owned by AAF not FECR. The state and agencies will own the land. AAF is leasing the land.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Brian, I agree with you 100%. The is the same thing I have been reading and hearing. I don't think the FEC RR has any interest in freight operations to Orlando or Tampa. They are doing very well with JAX-MIA.


----------



## Brian_tampa

AAF has an agreement with Orlando International Airport authority (GOAA) today:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-train-airport-deal-20131003,0,1139471.story

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2013/10/02/see-how-much-all-aboard-florida-will.html

Big news is that the GOAA will be asking the state of FL for a 200 million dollar grant for construction of the station at the airport. Also, a new 50 million dollar maintenance facility will be built south of the station (pretty much in the same location as was planned for the HSR project). Eight of the ten train sets will be housed there, I assume allowing for the other two to be at the Miami terminal overnight? Also, it appears the train sets will have 6 coach cars, 1 cafe car, and 2 locomotives.

My opinion on this is that AAF and GOAA have already begun talks with FDOT regarding the $200 million dollar grant. The GOAA would not have signed off on this if the grant did not already have a good chance of happening. Maybe our conservative Gov Scott here will use it as an example of helping private investment and creating jobs. Why not? Every state and most cities use taxpayer money to lure new businesses or help existing ones to expand.

I expect to now see design and construction contracts let very soon. IMHO, AAF is waiting for all these agreements to get made before proceeding forward. Expect alot of announcements and progress to happen now.

Tomorrow, AAF and the toll road authority (OOCEA) will agree to terms with a vote by the Board. Then work can begin finally!

Edit: informative local tv news report from WESH Orlando

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/highspeed-train-to-connect-orlando-miami/-/11788162/22238756/-/w6bu4a/-/index.html


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## Anderson

8-of-10 sounds about right. MCO-MIA service would need to start earlier in the day than MIA-MCO service to make that work (they'd need 3-4 sets in MIA to time identical service starts), but it seems workable. If the first train out of MCO is at 0500, it'd get to MIA about 0800 (in time for an 0900 departure); the biggest issue is that you'd need to have only two departures prior to that to make it work.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Another bit of interesting facts about FECI is that the company has hired several vice-presidents with backgrounds in navigating the political scene in DC. In this old article from the past spring, Rusty Roberts (Vice president corporate development for FECI) is in charge of planning and launching AAF in the Central Florida region. He also happens to have been Rep. Mica's chief of staff for many years.

With smart hiring moves like this, it is easy to see why AAF has had little difficulty navigating the complex currents of negotiating with the government. I would not doubt that is why the FAA issue at the Orlando airport seems to have fallen off the radar. Having people like this will make it alot easier for AAF to convince the state of Florida to invest in this project by providing money for the airport station. If AAF does expand to Tampa, people like this will be invaluable when the time comes to build a new railroad down interstate 4.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/print-edition/2013/04/26/five-minutes-with-florida-east-coast.html?page=all

EDIT: I have since learned that AAF did not request the state money to build the train station - GOAA is requesting the money come from the government. It appears we should know more soon about the funding sources for the airport station according to a news report I read.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Details of agreements with GOAA can be found starting on page 47 of this presentation document:

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_presentation.pdf

It outlines the various agreements that AAF and GOAA concluded today. Of note - new maintenance facility will be in same proposed location for the aborted HSR project a few years ago. A new lease will have to be negotiated for any expansion southward (westbound) out of new train station. This to me strongly suggests that any future expansion to Tampa will copy the old HSR project route exactly.


----------



## chrsjrcj

> Another critical milestone has been met! Today, the Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority Board unanimously approved an easement purchase agreement with All Aboard Florida. This agreement allows All Aboard Florida to construct its rail infrastructure immediately parallel to the State Road 528 corridor.


https://www.facebook.com/AllAboardFlorida/posts/573476556033410


----------



## CHamilton

FL: All Aboard Florida Train Could Start Construction Next Year, Open in Late 2015 


> SOURCE: ORLANDO SENTINEL ...
> 
> Owned by Florida East Coast Industries of Coral Gables, All Aboard Florida is planning depots at Orlando International Airport, West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami. The trains would run on a 230-mile route.
> 
> 
> Its customers are expected to be business travelers and tourists. A one-way ticket could cost about $100.
> 
> Construction could start next year on the privately financed, $1.5 billion project because the agreements provide a place for the train at OIA, as well as right of way along the BeachLine Expressway for tracks to the airport.
> 
> A sister company of All Aboard Florida, Florida East Coast Railway, already owns about 200 miles of track from Miami to Cocoa.
> 
> The pact approved Wednesday calls for the Orlando airport to seek a $200 million grant from the state to pay for a station about a mile south of the main terminal.
> 
> "We are embarking on a new business frontier, making us the true hub of Central Florida and the true hub of the state," said Frank Kruppenbacher, airport board chairman.
> 
> The depot initially would serve All Aboard Florida but also would have space for a potential future spur of the SunRail commuter train scheduled to start operating in May and for one other train, possibly the proposed magnetically levitated system from the airport to the Orange County Convention Center.
> 
> All Aboard Florida would pay the airport $2.8 million annually for rent, plus up to $1.50 per train passenger who leaves from Orlando. The train company also would spend $50 million to build a maintenance facility at the airport and pay more than $580,000 a year to lease the land for it....


----------



## George Harris

From the trade press:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=37920

The essence:



> The agreement enables All Aboard Florida to construct rail infrastructure parallel to the State Road 528 Corridor.


This with a leases with FDOT approved in June means that



> All Aboard Florida now has secured the right of way needed to build a passenger-rail line between Orlando and Miami, All Aboard Florida officials said in a press release.



Also, on Wednesday (Oct 2,2013):



> the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority's (GOAA) board approved several agreements that will allow All Aboard Florida to develop its Central Florida station at Orlando International Airport's future intermodal facility.


----------



## Ben

AAF applied for a RRIF loan earlier this year. What if the loan does not get approved; could it stop the project?


----------



## afigg

Ben said:


> AAF applied for a RRIF loan earlier this year. What if the loan does not get approved; could it stop the project?


Possibly. Depends on whether AAF can get a commercial financing at interest rates and terms that allow the project - as a whole - to remain viable for eventually turning a profit. But I expect AAF will qualify for the RRIF loan, they have the assets of an established freight railroad and state & local support backing them up.

The issue with the RRIF loan is that most of the FRA staff is on furlough. That means there is no one processing the loan, working with a vendor to qualify and handle the loan. If the government shutdown is over by the end of the next work week that means probably a minimum of a 3 week delay in processing the application, given the days spent preparing for the shutdown and then getting back up to speed.


----------



## jis

Isn't the RRIF loan for upgrading the FEC trackage between Miami and Cocoa? Wouldn't FEC apply for that, since it is their property that they will be upgrading? Wouldn't AAF applying for an RRIF loan get them re-entangled with STB, which they just managed get disentangled from? Just curious. I don't know the answers to any of those questions.


----------



## jphjaxfl

jis said:


> Isn't the RRIF loan for upgrading the FEC trackage between Miami and Cocoa? Wouldn't FEC apply for that, since it is their property that they will be upgrading? Wouldn't AAF applying for an RRIF loan get them re-entangled with STB, which they just managed get disentangled from? Just curious. I don't know the answers to any of those questions.


The proposed passenger trains between Miami and Orlando Airport will be operated by AAF with sister company FEC RR hosting those trains between Miami and Cocoa. Because AAF's passengers trains are going to operate only in Florida and not connect with any other interstate passenger trains, they will not be subject to STB. FECI, the Real Estate Development sister company of AAF and FECRR has significant resources and stands to lose if this project is delayed too long. This project will happen with or without the loan. Look for further press releases by the end of the year.


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## Brian_tampa

Link to a nice video presentation of the new APM and AAF terminal to be built at the Orlando airport.

http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_video.htm

Looks like it will be a very nice station - AAF customers will get their own parking level in the new garage.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Brian_tampa said:


> Link to a nice video presentation of the new APM and AAF terminal to be built at the Orlando airport.
> 
> http://www.orlandoairports.net/meetings/public/board/20131002_video.htm
> 
> Looks like it will be a very nice station - AAF customers will get their own parking level in the new garage.


Brian, Thanks for posting. It looks like a nice facility. It's great that there will be exclusive parking for AAF trains. I plan to drive from Jacksonville to that terminal to take AAF to South Florida.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Found a video of a presentation AAF did a few days ago.



Not much more then what we already know. Hourly service from about 6 am to 9 pm. They have their Miami to WPB permits, and ground will break at the end of this year. WPB-Orlando EIS should be done by spring of 2014. Test runs starting at the end of 2015, revenue runs in early 2016.

Interestingly, he does mention at about 28:00 that AAF is the name of the company, not the brand name of the train. Down to two manufactures (almost one) to actually build the trains. Will be built in the USA. Factory possibly in New York or California (any ideas based on that?).


----------



## Blackwolf

chrsjrcj said:


> Down to two manufactures (almost one) to actually build the trains. Will be built in the USA. Factory possibly in New York or California (any ideas based on that?).


New York: CAF or Alstrom?

California: Siemens?


----------



## afigg

chrsjrcj said:


> Not much more then what we already know. Hourly service from about 6 am to 9 pm. They have their Miami to WPB permits, and ground will break at the end of this year. WPB-Orlando EIS should be done by spring of 2014. Test runs starting at the end of 2015, revenue runs in early 2016.


2016 is shaping up to be a busy year for expansion/restoration of passenger rail in the US. We will see if AAF can start Miami to Orlando service by early 2016.

Local news article on the $5.5 million purchase of property in West Palm beach for the railroad station and retail center: All Aboard Florida confirms ownership of 2 acres for downtown West Palm station and development.


----------



## Nathanael

Anderson said:


> Just wondering why the regret...and, of course, the source.
> 
> Edit: If they were to try and use a minor change of plans (starting time, number of frequencies, etc.) to try and assert jurisdiction, I suspect they'll end up in court rather quickly. Even a Tampa extension as a reason would likely trigger some sort of legal row.


The California ruling is controlling precedent now, making the AAF ruling bad precedent. The cases are not really distinguishable, despite some figleafs; to the extent that they are distinguishable, the AAF case (running on shared track with freights, no time separation) points towards STB jurisdiction and the California case does not, which shows you just how stone-cold dead the AAF ruling is as precedent.

And in fact I think it wouldn't trigger any sort of legal row. With the current attitude of the STB (based on the California ruling) AAF would be told "We have jurisdiction. Now we approve of your request to build passenger rail service, in accordance with Congress's statement of intent to promote passenger rail service. And we find that you are a private railroad and not subject to NEPA. Now please go do whatever you like with our blessing." This is what I'd expect to happen upon a Tampa extension request.

Since this position was AAF's backup request if its attempt to avoid jurisdiction failed, and is in practical terms the same result, AAF should be perfectly happy with it. By contrast, if AAF picked a fight in court, it could risk losing a lot worse; since the California precedent is good and the AAF precedent is just bad, the AAF precedent will collapse as soon as it's challenged. AAF doesn't want to poke it.


----------



## CHamilton

All Aboard Florida chooses station location in downtown Fort Lauderdale



> All Aboard Florida officials today announced plans to develop the future passenger railroad's Fort Lauderdale station on land next to the Florida East Coast Railway (FEC) corridor....
> 
> Planning and design is under way for the station, which will be built on land next to the FEC corridor on NW 2nd Avenue between Broward Boulevard and NW 4th Street.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Looking at the link there is also another rail project in the works. Ft. Lauderdale's the streetcar project. This is shaping up to be a Transportation Renaissance in Florida.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Siemens Rail Systems and Cummins today announce a partnership to build a new 125mph passenger locomotive in the USA for the USA market. It meets Tier4 emissions requirements and is a lighter weight design.

Could this possibly be the locomotive that AAF chooses? It does appear to match perfectly what AAF has described in their publicly available materials.

The timing of this announcement is also interesting. AAF is very close to announcing their rolling stock manufacturer. Other than AAF, what potential customer would trigger such a new locomotive design specifically for passenger service in the USA market?

http://cumminsengines.com/siemens-and-cummins-team-up-in-the-us


----------



## jis

The Midwest and California RFPs?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brian_tampa said:


> Siemens Rail Systems and Cummins today announce a partnership to build a new 125mph passenger locomotive in the USA for the USA market. It meets Tier4 emissions requirements and is a lighter weight design.
> 
> Could this possibly be the locomotive that AAF chooses? It does appear to match perfectly what AAF has described in their publicly available materials.
> 
> The timing of this announcement is also interesting. AAF is very close to announcing their rolling stock manufacturer. Other than AAF, what potential customer would trigger such a new locomotive design specifically for passenger service in the USA market?
> 
> http://cumminsengines.com/siemens-and-cummins-team-up-in-the-us


I was looking at this, and was just about to post that here. Siemens will build them in California, so it is a possibility I think.


----------



## Brian_tampa

chrsjrcj said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens Rail Systems and Cummins today announce a partnership to build a new 125mph passenger locomotive in the USA for the USA market. It meets Tier4 emissions requirements and is a lighter weight design.
> 
> Could this possibly be the locomotive that AAF chooses? It does appear to match perfectly what AAF has described in their publicly available materials.
> 
> The timing of this announcement is also interesting. AAF is very close to announcing their rolling stock manufacturer. Other than AAF, what potential customer would trigger such a new locomotive design specifically for passenger service in the USA market?http://cumminsengines.com/siemens-and-cummins-team-up-in-the-us
> 
> 
> 
> I was looking at this, and was just about to post that here. Siemens will build them in California, so it is a possibility I think.
Click to expand...

Yes they will build in CA. I suspect this might be what AAF has in mind, due to AAF over the past year talking about using a European trainset manufacturer. I don't think they will pick GE or EMD as the locomotive manufacturer. It is true this could also be for the Amtrak/CA/IL/WA state combined design/order. But that isn't due for another 2 years before actual production. I would not think Siemens would announce a newly designed loco for that program when the government has not even announced who won the bidding! This locomotive model is for something different, in my opinion.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A video of the presentation made by Rusty Roberts of AAF to the city council meeting in Ft Pierce, FL this past Monday (Dec. 2nd, 2013).

Items to note:

1. They have evidently nailed down the schedules for first and last trains from/to Miami and Orlando. First trains will leave at 6am and last trains will leave at 9pm.

2. AAF has hired consultants and engineers from several countries (not just the USA) to assist with the design of the train sets. They will be of foreign (European I think he said) design and be unlike anything in the USA.

3. AAF would consider adding Ft Pierce as a stop in the future after initial route is running for several years if the ridership numbers are there - probably not with hourly service. They could conceivably run certain trains that make more stops??

4. Construction will not begin on the south segment (MIA to WPB) until first quarter of 2014 - they are currently wrapping up contract negotiations with engineering and construction contractors.

5. Construction on WPB to MCO segment will be 3rd quarter (July-Sep) timeframe of 2014.

6. Will announce new name for service in mid-2014.

7. Beginning process with FRA in early 2014 to determine safety design requirements for every roadway crossing. This will allow for the engineering estimate and design to proceed and also let the cities understand what will be required to implement "quiet zones".

Link to video of his presentation:

http://fortpiercefl.swagit.com/play/12022013-566/#14


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens Rail Systems and Cummins today announce a partnership to build a new 125mph passenger locomotive in the USA for the USA market. It meets Tier4 emissions requirements and is a lighter weight design.
> 
> Could this possibly be the locomotive that AAF chooses? It does appear to match perfectly what AAF has described in their publicly available materials.
> 
> The timing of this announcement is also interesting. AAF is very close to announcing their rolling stock manufacturer. Other than AAF, what potential customer would trigger such a new locomotive design specifically for passenger service in the USA market?http://cumminsengines.com/siemens-and-cummins-team-up-in-the-us
> 
> 
> 
> I was looking at this, and was just about to post that here. Siemens will build them in California, so it is a possibility I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes they will build in CA. I suspect this might be what AAF has in mind, due to AAF over the past year talking about using a European trainset manufacturer. I don't think they will pick GE or EMD as the locomotive manufacturer. It is true this could also be for the Amtrak/CA/IL/WA state combined design/order. But that isn't due for another 2 years before actual production. I would not think Siemens would announce a newly designed loco for that program when the government has not even announced who won the bidding! This locomotive model is for something different, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

 I am guessing that the new Siemens diesel locomotive is evolved from the ACS-64 in the same way they evolved the Vectron diesel from their electric platform for the European market. By re-using many components, they are building on a tried and tested platform while permitting the same production line to produce both types seamlessly. So maybe as the ACS-64 production winds down, they are hoping to seamlessly transition into diesel production, first for AAF, then for the state orders plus for whatever else may appear on the horizon between now and then (including commuter systems). Of course if Amtrak is sufficiently impressed with the ACS-64, that may be a door opener to whatever will replace the P42 (although I think both GE and EMD are going to push hard for that order, which will squeeze Siemens hard).


----------



## MattW

> They will be of foreign (European I think he said) design and be unlike anything in the USA.


That's a tad unsettling. We have Talgo so that's out. What's left really? A completely articulated trainset with no real divisions between cars? Cars propelled by a thousand hamsters?


----------



## Anderson

MattW said:


> They will be of foreign (European I think he said) design and be unlike anything in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a tad unsettling. We have Talgo so that's out. What's left really? A completely articulated trainset with no real divisions between cars? Cars propelled by a thousand hamsters?
Click to expand...

I like the hamsters!


----------



## Anderson

All joking aside, Talgo would still be on the list. They have a US facility, but they're ultimately a European company (Spanish IIRC). This would also hint at Alstom (French), AnsaldoBreda, Siemens, and/or Bombardier (which has extensive European operations in spite of being Canadian). In short...lots of names we're familiar with.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> AnsaldoBreda


I hope think carefully and look at what happened to Fyra before going down that road.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

IIRC AAF said they would announce the maker(s) of the train sets by the end of the year. 

 Time is running short 

:excl: So any day now :excl:

But then again they've not made most of their self imposed deadlines.


----------



## Brian_tampa

^^ Davy Crockett -

From what I understand they have been delayed due to their efforts to obtain a waiver or an agreement from the FRA in order to run "European" design/style train sets. AAF has been working with the FRA for the better part of 2013 on this, if not longer. I think the plan is to announce the builder and the operator sometime before summer 2104 2014. By the way, they are also behind on their construction start date down in the MIA to WPB corridor as well. That was supposed to begin by end of 2013 - they have more control over construction I would suppose than the train set selection (too much government red-tape with that!). Otherwise, I have not heard much at all in the past month.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I think the plan is to announce the builder and the operator sometime before summer *2104*.


I would hope so!


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the plan is to announce the builder and the operator sometime before summer *2104*.
> 
> 
> 
> I would hope so!
Click to expand...

Nice catch! It was early and I was still half asleep when I wrote that this morning.

Sometimes it does seem like it will be 2104 when they announce the builder!


----------



## Brian_tampa

Very interesting job posting on the Siemens website today:

http://usa.siemens.jobs/sacramento-ca/commercial-project-manager-small-projects=cpmsp-for-all-aboard-florida-project/42751402/job/

AAF has been very mum about the rolling stock supplier up to this point. However this appears to not apply to any potential manufacturer. With the new job posted being based in Sacramento (site of where they build train sets for the N American market), this is most likely an indirect way of saying AAF has awarded the work to Siemens. No confirmation from AAF or FECI - just my best educated guess!


----------



## chrsjrcj

Nice find!


----------



## Aaron

It's already been removed. Looks like AAF might have got wind that Siemens was inadvertently leaking and asked them to pull it.


----------



## Anderson

Dang, you guys are _good_!

Edit: Did anyone manage to get a screencap?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson ^^^, yes I was able to save the webpage as a pdf document. I was expecting it would not stay up for long!


----------



## Brian_tampa

ConstructionJobs.com has a listing for the Orlando area for Project managers, engineers, and estimators. It has been posted since the first of the year. One of the projects listed (along with work for the I-4 rebuild in Orlando) is for AAF:

http://constructionjobs.com/jobseeker/DisplayJob/?jobpostID=200282

"All ABoard Florida: Is a high speed rail project from Orlando to Miami; the Design Build sections has a total value of $500-$600m. These projects involves major earthwork, bridges, drainage and rail."

It seems they value the Design/Build portion to be $500-600 million. I believe that this would be for the MIA to WPB section as that was where AAF was going to start construction first. And that amount is slightly less than the RRIF loan they applied for last year for the same segment ($632 million listed in public documents). Not trying to read too much into this, but does this mean that the start of work is imminent? The last I heard was that AAF was wrapping up contract negotiations with the engineering/construction firms in December.


----------



## Anderson

I suspect that the RRIF loan amount included a not-insubstantial contingency allowance and/or have gone in at the high end of the range. 10% is pretty standard from what I've seen in other planning documents, so a project in the $560-570m range might incur a loan request around $630m. It's also possible that AAF is being purposefully vague on the project range in the job listing, too.

Still, it does look like things are rapidly moving along.


----------



## cirdan

just in case anybody missed this announcement.



> Florida East Coast orders 24 GE locomotives
> 
> 31 Jan 2014
> 
> USA: Florida East Coast Railway announced an order for 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 Evolution Series locomotives on January 30.
> 
> 'These locomotives will provide the fuel-efficient power we need to support the current operations and future growth of the railroad,' said Fran Chinnici, Senior Vice-President of Mechanical, Engineering & Purchasing at FEC.
> 
> The FEC runs for 560 km along the east coast of the state from Miami to Jacksonville, serving PortMiami, Port Everglades and Port of Palm Beach.


source:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/florida-east-coast-orders-24-ge-locomotives.html


----------



## PRR 60

cirdan said:


> just in case anybody missed this announcement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida East Coast orders 24 GE locomotives
> 
> 31 Jan 2014
> 
> USA: Florida East Coast Railway announced an order for 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 Evolution Series locomotives on January 30.
> 
> 'These locomotives will provide the fuel-efficient power we need to support the current operations and future growth of the railroad,' said Fran Chinnici, Senior Vice-President of Mechanical, Engineering & Purchasing at FEC.
> 
> The FEC runs for 560 km along the east coast of the state from Miami to Jacksonville, serving PortMiami, Port Everglades and Port of Palm Beach.
> 
> 
> 
> source:
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/florida-east-coast-orders-24-ge-locomotives.html
Click to expand...

Those are freight locomotives ordered by FEC railroad. The passenger equipment will be purchased by All Aboard Florida.


----------



## edjbox

Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)


----------



## Paulus

edjbox said:


> Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove?


No.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

edjbox said:


> Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)


They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.


----------



## Aaron

THE CJ said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)
> 
> 
> 
> They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.
Click to expand...

False. The Ft. Pierce presentation linked to earlier in this thread has AAF VP of Corporate Development specifically saying "made in America". They say they are using all new designs, though, which would preclude picking up any used P40s or anything like that.


----------



## cirdan

Aaron said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will All Aboard Florida buy the GE P40s from NJT and/or the P40s from Amtrak currently at Beech Grove? (at least for the first few years)
> 
> 
> 
> They will be using European trainsets. So nothing American made for this service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False. The Ft. Pierce presentation linked to earlier in this thread has AAF VP of Corporate Development specifically saying "made in America". They say they are using all new designs, though, which would preclude picking up any used P40s or anything like that.
Click to expand...

 I assume that what The CJ calls "European trainsets" means trainsets based on, or at least inspired by, European designs. Not actually equipment imported wholesale from Europe. In much the same way you could say the ACS-64, or the AEM-7 is a European locomotive.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

All American passenger electrics are European. The AEM-7 and related ALP-44 are AseaBrownBovari, the Fast Flying Phallus ER, I mean HHP-8 was based on TGV tech from Alstom, the ALP-46 is a Daimler-Benz design, and the ACS-64 is Siemens. And the most advanced locomotive in the US, Infact probably most advanced ever produced, the ALP-45DP is a modified ALP-46, designed, engineered, and largely built in Europe.


----------



## afigg

Green Maned Lion said:


> All American passenger electrics are European. The AEM-7 and related ALP-44 are AseaBrownBovari, the Fast Flying Phallus ER, I mean HHP-8 was based on TGV tech from Alstom, the ALP-46 is a Daimler-Benz design, and the ACS-64 is Siemens. And the most advanced locomotive in the US, Infact probably most advanced ever produced, the ALP-45DP is a modified ALP-46, designed, engineered, and largely built in Europe.


All Aboard Florida will not be buying electric locomotives or EMUs, but either diesel powered locomotives or maybe even DMUs, so the origin of electric locomotives are moot point for what AAF might purchase. We will have to wait to see what AAF buys and how much of it will actually be made in the US.


----------



## Paulus

Given the F125's acceleration, please for the love of good transit let it be DMUs


----------



## George Harris

GML: Nice to see you back. Unless I have missed it, it has been quite a while since you have been here.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Looks like the new AAF station at the Orlando airport is one step closer to reality. Florida Gov. Scott to announce this afternoon a $200 million dollar state grant to the GOAA (airport authority) to construct the station. Here is a link to the Orlando Setinel article from this morning.

Update: Looks like $213 million. And not unexpected, John Mica had some words to say. Here is the link. Not sure how easy it will be to obtain the approval of the legislature.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I would like to see the presentation, but the plot thickens?

All Aboard Florida Wants more South Florida Stations, Trains

http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/aboard-florida-wants-south-florida-stations-trains/


----------



## Anderson

I don't think that AAF is trying to kill the Coastal Link...it sounds like the Tri-Rail people are trying to mess with AAF and AAF is fighting back. AAF wanting the right to run twice-hourly trains is not unreasonable (let's face it, if they're successful they could easily need additional slots at peak hours, and they _will_ need additional slots if they go to Jacksonville as well as Orlando). AAF wanting the right to add stations down the line is also not unreasonable. I'm undecided on the fare agreement...I can see an argument that if AAF is limited to twice Tri-Rail's peak fare at off-peak times, you could effectively require a fare differential of more like 4:1 than 2:1...not to mention that AAF could be forced to hike fares because Tri-Rail hikes them.

AAF is probably being unreasonable in wanting Tri-Rail to have 18 stations opened before starting, but that's about the only unreasonable point on their part. Other than that, as far as I can tell this is AAF not wanting to have their hands tied going forward.

All else being equal, it looks like SFRTA is afraid that AAF might end up knocking them for a loop down the road. I suspect they don't want to get stuck paying for a bunch of stations only for AAF to end up grabbing business, but...this just seems ridiculous on their part. I see absolutely _no_ reason that, so long as the line has the capacity for them, both sides couldn't run lots of trains. But if SFRTA wants to run a bunch of commuter trains, they should probably negotiate for the slots rather than trying to freeze out any expansion of AAF. At this point, I really wouldn't blame AAF for telling Tri-Rail to buzz off.


----------



## MattW

Good grief, 64 trains per day. Per Trains Magazine's latest (April) issue, that's more than MARC Penn Line, or SEPTA's Trenton Line, or MBTA from Providence, and more trains than Amtrak runs North of New York on the NEC!


----------



## Anderson

MattW said:


> Good grief, 64 trains per day. Per Trains Magazine's latest (April) issue, that's more than MARC Penn Line, or SEPTA's Trenton Line, or MBTA from Providence, and more trains than Amtrak runs North of New York on the NEC!


64 trains is 32 round trips. The plan at the moment is 16 round trips (i.e. 32 trains), one each hour from 0600 to 2100, but it seems that AAF wants the flexibility to double that. It sounds like more than it is in some regards because of long-term plans to go to Tampa _and_ Jacksonville...remember, trains can't go both places. It's also quite believable that, even if Jacksonville didn't happen, AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours. In this context, it isn't likely that they'd need to run all 32 round trips to Orlando...but in their shoes, I'd definitely want to have the ability to run extra trains at those hours (or to extend service by an hour or two in either direction...for example, if they go via Disney to Tampa, running a train after whenever the parks close), and the full set of 32 round trips preserves flexibility.

Edit: I'm wondering how many frequencies Tri-Rail is looking at running, etc. It seems like a viable agreement would be for Tri-Rail to basically turn into a rush hour supplement to AAF. The other thought: I know FEC/AAF explicitly wants to eventually drop cruise passengers off closer to the docks, so that would be a fourth station...and one which would be precluded by Tri-Rail's actions.


----------



## Brian_tampa

After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:

http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99

Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.

Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:
> 
> http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99
> 
> Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.
> 
> Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!


I saw the mention of that. My suspicion is that it is a highball number to ensure they don't hit a cost overrun issue.

The issue seems to be that AAF wants to plan for extra passenger capacity to avoid hitting an expensive bottleneck later on down the line. Nothing I see indicates that AAF wants to run 64 trains anytime soon, merely that they want to plan based on that potential load level. SFRTA, in turn, wants to cap AAF at their initial proposal and keep them from going further indefinitely.

If it's not clear, I think SFRTA is being overly restrictive in what they're pushing for, though there seems to be room for some negotiation here. I could see an agreement where AAF isn't restricted to 32 trains indefinitely coming to pass, but where SFRTA doesn't have to plan based on dramatically increased service levels for their proposals. Likewise, I suspect AAF will get some additional stations out of the deal if they want them...and I do believe there's a case for some infill stations that could receive limited service from AAF. On the other hand...Tri-Rail probably won't have to be set up to serve all 18 stations at the start.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours.


Or add extra evening / night service. I'm surprised at th 9pm last train. With Florida being such a big tourism magnet, it seems AAF isn't especially keen on attarcting the night entertainment crowd. If you want to go clubbing or on a pub crawl or whatever and still get home the same night I would think 12am or 1am departure to be more appropriate, if not later than that even, at least in the high season weekends.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> AAF could want to run a second hourly train at peak hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Or add extra evening / night service. I'm surprised at th 9pm last train. With Florida being such a big tourism magnet, it seems AAF isn't especially keen on attarcting the night entertainment crowd. If you want to go clubbing or on a pub crawl or whatever and still get home the same night I would think 12am or 1am departure to be more appropriate, if not later than that even, at least in the high season weekends.
Click to expand...

I was hinting at that with the Tampa extension...a "Park closing special" run at whatever hour Disney/Universal closes on a given night (presuming some coordination there), and possibly another as Downtown Disney/CityWalk close would likely be a smash hit...I can see the former supporting multiple trains some evenings at peak seasons, especially if Disney coordinates with AAF and/or some shuttles can be set up.


----------



## jis

On a fully double tracked railroad running two trains per hour in each direction is rather light traffic. The French regularly run over 10 trains per hour (allegedly, theoretically upto 15+ tph) in each direction at upto 200mph.

On a single track railroad it will take considerable planning and proper placement of passing sidings.

Just as a random example, the RiverLINE in NJ is able to run 4 trains per hour in each direction on a mix of single track and double track stretches and some additional judiciously placed passing sidings. They can run over 128 trains per day, but actually run considerably less in a real life schedule.

On the stretch between Newark and New York Penn Stations at least theoretically Amtrak is able to run over 22 tph at upto 90mph in each direction on a fully double tracked railroad. Of course what you do with such a massive flood of trains when they arrive at each end is a different matter.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> After hearing this for the first time on here about AAF wanting 32 round trips per day I found the Tri-Rail Coastal Link meeting agenda document where all this is spelled out here on page 113 of the PDF:
> 
> http://www.sfrta.fl.gov/docs/BoardMeetings/2014/Final_022814_Agenda_cb.pdf#page99
> 
> Haven't read through the whole thing as it is late and am working long hours... Maybe someone else will soon.
> 
> Edit: wow! One big shocker is on page 115 - it says AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion dollar RRIF loan!!
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the mention of that. My suspicion is that it is a highball number to ensure they don't hit a cost overrun issue.
> The issue seems to be that AAF wants to plan for extra passenger capacity to avoid hitting an expensive bottleneck later on down the line. Nothing I see indicates that AAF wants to run 64 trains anytime soon, merely that they want to plan based on that potential load level. SFRTA, in turn, wants to cap AAF at their initial proposal and keep them from going further indefinitely.
Click to expand...

When likely future extensions to Tampa and to Jacksonville are added in, 64 trains a day is arguably a bare minimum reserve for future growth given the population numbers in Florida. 48 trains a day to Orlando Airport & Tampa, 16 to Jacksonville is not that many if the train service succeeds. Hope there is forethought given to protecting the ROW for a 3rd and 4th tracks where there is existing ROW when it comes to new construction of bridges over the tracks and buildings.
As for the RRIF loan, I thought that AAF was applying for a circa $600 million loan. But they may have re-evaluated the costs and with the interest rates on the RRIF loans so low, decided to take a shot at financing the whole project with locked in low rates. However, since the Buy American requirements will apply to any rolling stock financed by the RRIF loan, that suggests AAF is going to buy US built equipment.


----------



## jis

Could AAF apply for TIGER grant? They may not wish to if they want to stay clear of the attached strings. But just as a theoretical consideration, would they be eligible?


----------



## Anderson

(1) I'm not sure if AAF could apply for TIGER or if Florida would have to send in the application in their name (or co-sign it or something).

(2) On the loan, I wonder if $1.6bn won't be enough to also fund the whole downtown development. It's also enough that they might be able to call some of their higher-rate bonds from before to free up cash flow (depending on project timing). FEC has some bonds out there in the 8-11% range, and I could see them using the chance to clear some of those from the books, directly or indirectly.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Could AAF apply for TIGER grant? They may not wish to if they want to stay clear of the attached strings. But just as a theoretical consideration, would they be eligible?


No, AAF could not directly apply for a TIGER grant. The eligible applicants are state, local governments, transit agencies, port authorities and other public entities. AAF could work with FL DOT or transit agency to submit an application, but it would probably not be with the trouble for AAF. The maximum grants in recent years have been in the $20 to $25 million range. Small potatoes compared to a $1.6 billion loan.

FL DOT received a $13.75 million TIGER FY13 grant towards the FEC and Tri-Rail connector track. I expect FL DOT and the transit agencies will apply for station and track projects that are related to the AAF plans. Perhaps grade crossing projects on the FEC to defray the costs to the local governments of the AAF upgrades?

Getting a little off topic: Checking the US DOT TIGER website, they have put up new documents on the TIGER grants. The Notice of Funding Availability for the FY14 grants which spells out who is eligible, dates, rules on how the funds will be allocated. 20% of the $600 million has to go to rural areas, project grants are between $10 and $200 million except for rural grants, up to $35 million total is to be awarded for planning studies. BTW, the website has a complete summary list of the 585 applications totaling $9 billion for the FY13 grants. Lot of road project applications from the state and local DOTs based on the project name. NJT applied for $31.9 million for "Portal Bridge: Construction Access Roads and Platforms, Timber Deck Replacement".

Edit: changed TIGER link.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could AAF apply for TIGER grant? They may not wish to if they want to stay clear of the attached strings. But just as a theoretical consideration, would they be eligible?
> 
> 
> 
> No, AAF could not directly apply for a TIGER grant. The eligible applicants are state, local governments, transit agencies, port authorities and other public entities. AAF could work with FL DOT or transit agency to submit an application, but it would probably not be with the trouble for AAF. The maximum grants in recent years have been in the $20 to $25 million range. Small potatoes compared to a $1.6 billion loan.
> 
> FL DOT received a $13.75 million TIGER FY13 grant towards the FEC and Tri-Rail connector track. I expect FL DOT and the transit agencies will apply for station and track projects that are related to the AAF plans. Perhaps grade crossing projects on the FEC to defray the costs to the local governments of the AAF upgrades?
> 
> Getting a little off topic: Checking the US DOT TIGER website, they have put up new documents on the TIGER grants. The Notice of Funding Availability for the FY14 grants which spells out who is eligible, dates, rules on how the funds will be allocated. 20% of the $600 million has to go to rural areas, project grants are between $10 and $200 million except for rural grants, up to $35 million total is to be awarded for planning studies. BTW, the website has a complete summary list of the 585 applications totaling $9 billion for the FY13 grants. Lot of road project applications from the state and local DOTs based on the project name. NJT applied for $31.9 million for "Portal Bridge: Construction Access Roads and Platforms, Timber Deck Replacement".
> 
> Edit: changed TIGER link.
Click to expand...

Well, and considering the number of grade crossings that likely need to be closed, some grants for bridges to replace crossings might also bee in order.


----------



## Anderson

I've been giving the SFRTA/AAF situation some thought, and I think the reason everyone is so jumpy is that this is the first case I can think of where a private-sector company was looking to start up (and plausibly expand) passenger rail service on an active/potentially active commuter corridor since government funding of commuter service became a "thing". I get a feeling that SFRTA doesn't know what to make of this situation.

This is interesting because, assuming 400-seat trains (as AAF has indicated a desire to run), at 16 round trips per day, AAF would have only 6400 seats available in each direction. Previous studies have put Coastal Link ridership closer to 60,000/day (which would make it one of the busiest commuter lines in North America...only the New Haven Line for MNRR, NEC line for NJT, BNSF Railway line for Metra, and probably the LIRR Main Line (I couldn't dig out a number) have more riders. Even at double that, 32 round trips, the supply of seats on AAF's trains would only be 12,800/day...and the odds of AAF selling all of those seats to local traffic seems remote. To match the projected demand on the line, AAF would have to run something like 150 trains per day to handle the internal traffic, and add more than just three infill stations.

It is true that, in theory, AAF would have an incentive to poach riders to increase revenue...and that Tri-Rail riders going from one end to the other would have a reason to jump, presuming Tri-Rail is averaging about 35-40 MPH and AAF is averaging over 60 MPH. However, there's also foreseeable way that AAF would be able to deal with the mass of traffic Tri-Rail projects for the line.

Turning around and trying to see SFRTA's perspective, they could arguably pay several hundred million dollars to add a lot of third/fourth track and build stations, only to have AAF undercut them, forcing up their subsidy costs and eventually cutting them out in favor of their own service. It seems like a paranoid scenario, but it's probably one their leadership would be remiss in not considering.

So my best guess is that SFRTA is staring at an unprecedented situation that has arisen (the closest equivalent I could think of would be if BNSF were looking at running their own service in Southern California) and is in a bit of a panic. It's honestly a bit frustrating to see this happen, particularly on what is a private sector rail line...especially when, as far as I can tell, FEC/AAF could probably just cut them out entirely.

I've got to say...this whole thing feels like it fell out of a work of alternate history. It just doesn't feel real. It's something in the vein of what a lot of us have hoped for over the decades, and it is interesting to see it playing out, but everything involved in it is just so upside down that it boggles the mind.


P.S. One other note on capacity: You can get a lot of capacity out of a line that is running all of one type of train. When you add another type (i.e. AAF plus Tri-Rail) it reduces effective capacity, and adding more types cuts capacity further.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Since I mentioned a few days ago about the SFRTA document that said AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion RRIF loan, I just saw a DOT Credit Council document saying that a new loan amount for the "Orlando extension" is for $995.5 million (as of their Dec 17th meeting). I believe the original $632 million dollar RRIF loan application was for MIA-WPB only (and it received a FONSI (no impact) for it's environmental studies). That must be where SFTRA got the $1.6 billion amount from - $995 + $632 = $1.6 billion (rounded). Does this mean that the Independent Financial Advisor has substantially completed their review of this new loan and the council is voting on approval? Or is this the first step in the process and the council hasn't even voted to begin the process? Now the DOT Credit Council wants more information - not sure what info they are looking for. Maybe it is the EIS that is due this spring (as it cannot grant approval until the environmental studies are complete)? Next meeting is on March 14th - but the DOT doesn't update their website that often I have found. I wish these documents had more detail! Here is the text of their action items from the agenda for the 12/17/13 meeting:

*DOT CREDIT COUNCIL MEETING *

*December 17, 2013 *

*AGENDA *

1. Action Items:

(a) Florida Department of Transportation’s request for indicative, non-binding terms for its $945 million TIFIA loan request for the I-4 Ultimate Improvements Project - the Council recommended approving the issuance of the indicative, non-binding term sheet to the Florida Department of Transportation for the I-4 Ultimate Improvements Project

(b) Request from the Colorado High Performance Transportation Enterprise to modify its $100 million PAB allocation for the US 36 Managed Lanes Phase 2 Project - the Council recommended to the Under Secretary of Transportation for Policy approval of a modification to the PAB allocation for the US 36 Managed Lanes Phase 2 Project

*© IFA request for a $995.5 million RRIF loan application from All Aboard Florida Operations, LLC, for the rail infrastructure improvements to establish intercity passenger rail from West Palm Beach to Orlando "the Orlando Extension" - the Council recommended to defer the vote until additional information is provided *


----------



## afigg

Brian_tampa said:


> Since I mentioned a few days ago about the SFRTA document that said AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion RRIF loan, I just saw a DOT Credit Council document saying that a new loan amount for the "Orlando extension" is for $995.5 million (as of their Dec 17th meeting). I believe the original $632 million dollar RRIF loan application was for MIA-WPB only (and it received a FONSI (no impact) for it's environmental studies). That must be where SFTRA got the $1.6 billion amount from - $995 + $632 = $1.6 billion (rounded). Does this mean that the Independent Financial Advisor has substantially completed their review of this new loan and the council is voting on approval? Or is this the first step in the process and the council hasn't even voted to begin the process? Now the DOT Credit Council wants more information - not sure what info they are looking for. Maybe it is the EIS that is due this spring (as it cannot grant approval until the environmental studies are complete)? Next meeting is on March 14th - but the DOT doesn't update their website that often I have found. I wish these documents had more detail! Here is the text of their action items from the agenda for the 12/17/13 meeting:


Your explanation of the $1.6 billion RRIF loan total makes sense. I found the webpage with the US DOT Credit Council meeting agendas and located a July 11, 2013 agenda with an action item on a $670 million RRIF loan application from AAF for rail infrastructure improvements from West Palm Beach to Miami. The Council recommended the FRA hire an IFA for application analysis. Don't know how long it takes for an financial analysis to review the applications, but there may be details that have to be settled with the FRA. Or perhaps, the recommendation by the Council to approve the loan has to wait until a Record of Decision is issued for the environmental review of the AAF projects.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I mentioned a few days ago about the SFRTA document that said AAF is applying for a $1.6 billion RRIF loan, I just saw a DOT Credit Council document saying that a new loan amount for the "Orlando extension" is for $995.5 million (as of their Dec 17th meeting). I believe the original $632 million dollar RRIF loan application was for MIA-WPB only (and it received a FONSI (no impact) for it's environmental studies). That must be where SFTRA got the $1.6 billion amount from - $995 + $632 = $1.6 billion (rounded). Does this mean that the Independent Financial Advisor has substantially completed their review of this new loan and the council is voting on approval? Or is this the first step in the process and the council hasn't even voted to begin the process? Now the DOT Credit Council wants more information - not sure what info they are looking for. Maybe it is the EIS that is due this spring (as it cannot grant approval until the environmental studies are complete)? Next meeting is on March 14th - but the DOT doesn't update their website that often I have found. I wish these documents had more detail! Here is the text of their action items from the agenda for the 12/17/13 meeting:
> 
> 
> 
> Your explanation of the $1.6 billion RRIF loan total makes sense. I found the webpage with the US DOT Credit Council meeting agendas and located a July 11, 2013 agenda with an action item on a $670 million RRIF loan application from AAF for rail infrastructure improvements from West Palm Beach to Miami. The Council recommended the FRA hire an IFA for application analysis. Don't know how long it takes for an financial analysis to review the applications, but there may be details that have to be settled with the FRA. Or perhaps, the recommendation by the Council to approve the loan has to wait until a Record of Decision is issued for the environmental review of the AAF projects.
Click to expand...

I would imagine that a ROD has to come first. Otherwise, they could in theory end up issuing a loan to a project that gets a negative ROD, which could be a _real_ mess.


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## Scott Orlando

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_13439.shtml

Always someone has to complain...but yacht owners? You would think they are planning 16 mile long freight trains going 20 mph.... :wacko:


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## Anderson

It's shocking, just _shocking_, that the railroad which was there a century ago might go back to being fully used! And of course, people moved next to that railroad expecting it to be nice and quiet...

*sighs*

I'm thinking of the jet noise mess in my area, particularly in Virginia Beach, where the once-rural area around Oceana got built up...and then the homeowners complained about the jet noise.

Another irony...it looks like FEC won't be needing any money from FL, so the only thing that FL would likely be paying for in any respect would be efforts to mitigate what's being complained about (i.e. replacing grade crossings with some bridges).

Edit: I might have more sympathy for these folks if I hadn't spent my entire life in an area that's sharply cut by a major freight track. Throw them a few bridges to offset any congestion issues, and maybe negotiate an additional stop with limited service should train frequencies be increased beyond hourly.

Edit2: I'd comment, but it's F-book linked.


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## Scott Orlando

Spot on Anderson. The NIMBY comments are off the chart and they are F-book linked but thats what alternate accounts are for. As a train lover and private pilot nothing burns me more than someone who moves somewhere, be it house,condo, boat, whatever, and goes outside and hears plane or train noise and says "we gotta change that!". They did not do their homework on where they were buying a home and suddenly are offended by their environment. Some of them I had to comment on. "they are going to cut our town in half" is a popular complaint. Really? That railroad has been there more than 100+ years. Did the railroad cut the town half or did the town grow on both sides of the railroad????

*sigh*


----------



## afigg

Scott Orlando said:


> http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_13439.shtml
> 
> Always someone has to complain...but yacht owners? You would think they are planning 16 mile long freight trains going 20 mph.... :wacko:


Well, if the locals feel that strongly about it, they could ask the state and local government to look at either building elevated tracks and higher clearance bridges for the FEC or road bridges over the FEC tracks. Sure, it will be a tad expensive, but the FEC would presumably have no objections to eliminating grade crossings that were put in place after the railroad line was built as long as it does not interfere with the FEC operations if someone else pays for it.

That the local NIMBYs have a petition to demand that AAF use an alternate route through central FL says that they have no understanding of why the FEC tracks are being used for AAF and the project.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I've been on the "Not All Aboard Florida" Facebook group and attempted to explain a number of times who is backing the project, why they are choosing the route they chose, and how the wait time for passenger trains is significantly less than the wait time for a freight train.

These are the same people who moan about any public transportation project that isn't a road. "Why can't the private sector fund it?" Well here's one...oops, can't support that one either because I might be inconvenienced for 40-120 seconds a day (or 10-15 minutes if they're a boater). The kicker is them trying to get the state of Florida to block the project. So much for being in favor of limited government and letting businesses do their thing.


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> I've been on the "Not All Aboard Florida" Facebook group and attempted to explain a number of times who is backing the project, why they are choosing the route they chose, and how the wait time for passenger trains is significantly less than the wait time for a freight train.
> 
> These are the same people who moan about any public transportation project that isn't a road. "Why can't the private sector fund it?" Well here's one...oops, can't support that one either because I might be inconvenienced for 40-120 seconds a day (or 10-15 minutes if they're a boater). The kicker is them trying to get the state of Florida to block the project. So much for being in favor of limited government and letting businesses do their thing.


Well, and it looks like the ship has sailed on FL's involvement anyway. The RRIF loan isn't an FL thing, OOCEA is already on board, and I don't see the airport people opposing this under any foreseeable circumstances. The environmental impacts should be borderline nil, and I suspect that absent something nasty there the state would be hard-pressed to restrict FEC from doing anything within their ROW that wouldn't qualify as a "taking".


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## cirdan

I've been trying to work out how the bits of AAC / FEC all fit together by following the lines on Google Maps.

I understand the site adjoining Govenment Center in Miami is the site of the original FEC downtown station in Miami, and this will also be the site of the new AAF station.

So how does that connect to the rest of the system?

I see there is still a track going north from said station site. Is this the future AAF line?

Just north of the station site there is a wye, and following the line that branches off here it runs into the port of Miami, but doesn't seem to connect to any rail yards or loading facilities. Is this line disused?

If this line is disused, then the whole line running north must also be disused as I can see no other spurs going anywhere.

The Google Maps satellite pictures show some construction work going on here. it looks as if a new siding or short section of double track is being put in. Is this for AAF?

What about the line that used to run to Key West. Did this also run through this location? If so it must have continued south out of the station. Is anything left of that? I see the tracks of the combined orange and green lines. Is this the ROW of the former Key West line?


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## jis

The original FEC line to Key West did run through this location. Don't know if anything is left of that. Don't know exactly when the line to Homestead was abandoned. I suspect the alignment was pretty much along where Dixieland Highway is today, but am not certain. The Key West Line south of Homestead was abandoned long time back.


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## chrsjrcj

The line from the Port of Miami to the wye near 71st Street is the FEC's Port of Miami branch. They just rehabilitated the line after a few years of inactivity, so that might explain the construction work on Google Earth. Continuing north from that wye is the FEC mainline to Jacksonville. This is what AAF will use until Cocoa, where it turns west toward Orlando.

FEC freight trains turn west at the wye towards Hialeah (where FEC's Miami yard is). AAF trains will not use this line.

AAF trains will use the FEC mainline from Cocoa to the wye at 71st Street. From there, it will use FEC's Port of Miami line until around I-395. The AAF line would split from the Port of Miami Branch and rise in elevation (I believe passing over Metromover) for the Miami stop (next to Government Center).

As for the Key West line, Metrorail uses the old right of way from Government Center to the end of the line (Dadeland South). From there, the old right of way is used by Metrobus as BRT to Homestead. The original plan was for Metrorail to go all the way to Homestead, but never happened ($$$).


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## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> As for the Key West line, Metrorail uses the old right of way from Government Center to the end of the line (Dadeland South). From there, the old right of way is used by Metrobus as BRT to Homestead. The original plan was for Metrorail to go all the way to Homestead, but never happened ($$$).


Thanks for confirming. This is what I suspected.


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## jphjaxfl

I lived in Cutler Ridge (South Dade County) from November, 1987 to November 1988. During that time, FEC abandoned the freight line from downtown Miami to Homestead. I used to see a local freight along US 1 until mid 1988. The FEC was given trackage rights on the CSX line from Hialeah to Homestead. When I have been back in the area, I have seen BRT right of way where the tracks used to run


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## George Harris

Scott Orlando said:


> http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_13439.shtml
> 
> Always someone has to complain...but yacht owners? You would think they are planning 16 mile long freight trains going 20 mph.... :wacko:


These weekend admirals managed to get some reduction in train frequency on the NEC line between New Haven and Providence RI because they were inconvenienced by waiting for drawbridges to open. Never forget, a yacht has been correctly descibed as a hole in the water that has to be kept full of money. The weekend admirals therefore are all guys with money and that means guys with political clout so they are the squeaky wheel that gets the first greasing. (That they are very likely greasing the politicians palms might also have something to do with it. Remember that campaign contributions are a legalized form of palm greasing. What do you think the average income is of the people that recently gathered at Obamba's $35,000 a plate dinner held for him recently in SF? Just an example of the level of people surrounding ANY politician.)

Unfortunately because river navigation and canals were here before railroads they end up having trump cards on what can be done by railroads (and roads) at river and canal crossings. Generally it is the navigation interests, whether commercial or recreational that control the span lengths and minimum vertical clearances on bridges over any waterway designated as navigatable. And you will find it surprising how small some of these waterways are. At least some of these have been taken off the list so that the drawspans have been disabled and the movable rail joints removed. There are also a lot of bridges that have been replaced in part because they have been designated as an impediment to navigation. Generally this has been done to permit wider barge lashups and sometimes higher fixed clearances. Always these have been done at government expense. The only span covered by this requirement is the one over the navigation channel. So you may have a relatively new span in the middle of a 100 plus year old bridge. An outstanding recent example of a channel span replacement was the replacement of the draw span in the Galveston Causeway.


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## Ispolkom

What I find impressive is that navigation's rights are always respected. I won't think that a hundred years ago the Great Northern would have any problem bridging the Yellowstone (I'm not sure that there was commercial traffic on it after the Battle of the Little Bighorn), but they had to build this bridge, which legend goes was opened precisely once, to prove to the War Department that it worked.


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## Scott Orlando

George I would agree that 1) A boat is a hole you pour money into 2) Yacht owner can and do grease palms of politicians and 3) River navigation rights often trump railroad rights. The thing that is troubling is that these worried locals only ever seem to think 'we gotta shut this down'. There is never thought to solutions. It is in the best interest of the local cities (Stuart in this news piece), and the state, the railroad, and the general public to work together to come up with answer instead of 'lets start a petition' or 'lets call the TV station' or 'call the Governor!'. Fixed river bridges are expensive but do not require the maintenance of movable bridges. New automobile bridges prevent 'cutting the city' and are immensely more safe, sound barriers for noise, etc. There are answers for the concerns.

Most people want great transportation, just not where the actually have to see it, hear it or be delayed by it. Until they need to use it.


----------



## jerichowhiskey

CBS12 



> More opposition mounting for All Aboard Railroad high-speed rail project Story By Jana Eschbach / CBS 12 NEWS
> 
> STUART, Fla. - Drivers brace for the impact as The Florida East Coast Railroad moves ahead with All Aboard Florida's plans for a high-speed rail to connect Orlando and Miami. Residents caught in the middle want it stopped.
> 
> In Stuart, the train is part of the traffic pattern.
> 
> If you need to go east, you learn to cross the tracks whenever you have the chance, or get stuck in traffic when a train comes. Now the train traffic is planned to go up with All Aboard.
> 
> The mighty Florida East Coast Industries' Railroad finds itself up against small grass roots groups trying to stop an already approved project.
> 
> "Do you think you guys can stop this?" we asked.
> 
> "Absolutely. You can stop anything," said Alex Larson, opposed to the project.
> 
> Today, residents from West Palm Beach to Vero Beach came to Indian River State College to give elected officials at the Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council an earful.
> 
> "Shame on you," blasted one speaker at the podium, to the elected Treasure Coast officials. "You know your towns and counties, they don't want this!"
> 
> Residents are fighting is to stop All Aboard Florida from adding 32 high speed 100-mile-per hour plus trains daily, crossing 350 intersections.
> 
> The train passes through the entire Treasure Coast and Palm Beaches.
> 
> "32 trains a day. 7 days a week," said John Castalucci, a Palm City railway opponent said. "They aren't interested in the public. They are interested in their bottom line, that's it."
> 
> The FEC's say its already moving ahead with plans to launch their privately owned, operated and maintained high-speed passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando.
> 
> The train that passes through doesn't stop in the Treasure Coast region at all.
> 
> Its first stop south of here is in West Palm Beach.
> 
> "An investment of $250 million of Florida taxpayers' money to build an elaborate terminal in Orlando, is not private," argued Martin County Commissioner Anne Scott.
> 
> "I urge all of us not to accept this as inevitable. Its is not inevitable," Scott said it was a private enterprise, subsidized by public funds, and sounded a lot like the failed investment the State made into Digital Domain in Port St. Lucie.
> 
> "A high speed train carrying a few thousand passengers a day will go through the middle of a region where hundreds of thousands of people live and work and depend on vehicles to do so," Scott said.
> 
> Today railroad officials told the council the trains will only disrupt traffic for a few minutes at a time. The time of a stoplight. And the FEC says its their investment paid for with private funds. Local leaders said that's not true.
> 
> "Yes its very private and we cant disclose our financing. Are you kidding me?" said Alex Larson, who is opposed to the rail project. "That was just revealed today we will be closing down 2 streets in West Palm Beach. Datura and Evernia, and I am like are you kidding me?"
> 
> When we asked All Aboard Florida's officials for an interview, their public relations person said they didn't have the time today, and they will be holding workshops with local residents soon to help answers their questions and address concerns.
> *
> For detailed information on both sides of the project:*
> 
> *FEC link:* www.allaboardflorida.com/fact-sheet
> *Residents Opposed to Train:* www.floridanotallaboard.com



I never like the idea of railroad crossings and regardless of the speeds these trains will be going, it'll just be asking for someone "trying" to beat them across the tracks.


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## MikefromCrete

How long do these people think they will be stopped by a high speed passenger train? Probably less than a minute.

I just tired to link to the anti-train site to give them a piece of my mind. I got a "403 Forbidden" to enter reply. I guess a lot of other people have been flooding them with replies to their idiotic stance.


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## Anderson

Try this link:
http://www.floridanotallaboard.com/

The CBS link was flawed...it spat out this:
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/www.floridanotallaboard.com


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## Caesar La Rock

These people are part of the reason why we don't have decent transportation in Florida among various reasons. If Robert Moses was still around, he would of done this project regardless of the opposition. Sure he didn't benefit public transportation in New York, but he still got things done anyway.


----------



## Blackwolf

"Damn the torpedoes, FULL SPEED AHEAD!"

FEC should not even give these guys the time of day. They're certainly not getting any train service, and I'll wager this group will likely be whining about that very lack of service "killing our town" in a few years time as AAF becomes ever more popular.


----------



## Anderson

Blackwolf said:


> "Damn the torpedoes, FULL SPEED AHEAD!"
> 
> FEC should not even give these guys the time of day. They're certainly not getting any train service, and I'll wager this group will likely be whining about that very lack of service "killing our town" in a few years time as AAF becomes ever more popular.


I agree. The question is how quickly their tune would change if FEC were giving them stops for at least some trains...which I _do_ expect down the road, assuming they go beyond once-hourly service.


----------



## Ryan

THE CJ said:


> These people are part of the reason why we don't have decent transportation in Florida among various reasons. If Robert Moses was still around, he would of done this project regardless of the opposition. Sure he didn't benefit public transportation in New York, but he still got things done anyway.


That's putting it mildly. These kind of people are the worst, denying "nice things" for the rest of us because of their selfishness.


----------



## chrsjrcj

3rd to last paragraph:



> Cumber says that if David Beckham builds his soccer stadium at PortMiami, AAF will provide train service to fans on game days across its freight rail bridge to the port.



http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/03/04/3973850/ready-to-hop-on-all-aboard-florida.html


----------



## Scott Orlando

chrsjrcj said:


> 3rd to last paragraph:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumber says that if David Beckham builds his soccer stadium at PortMiami, AAF will provide train service to fans on game days across its freight rail bridge to the port.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/03/04/3973850/ready-to-hop-on-all-aboard-florida.html
Click to expand...

I would make the trip to see my Orlando City Soccer whip up on Becks team...

This brings up something I have thought about many times. The rail line to the port has been inactive but apparently will be reopening. Miami is the busiest cruise ship port in the world. Before Port Canaveral (who is weighing options for a rail connection) had so many choices, I used to cruise out of Miami a lot. Its a pretty long drive but worse is that it is about $15 a day to park your car. Wouldn't the heavy daily cruise demand be much more worth a passenger connection to Dodge Island than the occasional soccer match? And with the new MIC terminal there could be a MIA-port train.These are the things that keep me up at night.


----------



## jis

From Miami Herald:



> *Unexpected cost could slow Miami-to-Orlando train plan*
> 
> A proposal to run 16 round-trip trains daily to and from S. Fla and Orlando faces an unanticipated hurdle: the cost of upgrading rail crossings.
> 
> ..........


Read more here:


----------



## Ryan

OH NOES!!! 32 trains will block a crossing for 30 seconds!!!

IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!


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## jis

Except for one comment by one lady in the article, I don't think it is about how long crossings will be blocked by trains at all. It is about outright elimination of many grade crossings with no reasonable replacement via overpasses, underpasses etc., that has got people worked up, which seems to be a perfectly reasonable thing to complain about IMHO, unless of course one is a pure rail bigot.

At least in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties they get service in exchange for that pain. In Brevard, Indian River, Martin and St. Lucie Counties they just get the extra cost and hassle with no service. So there is a political blowback which is slowly brewing. I am not sure how it will play out. Ironically, the primary reason for no service in those four counties is the Beach Line Toll Authority which thinks their Toll revenues will be adversely affected if service were instituted between those Counties and Orlando, and probably rightly so. But it is kind of odd that a public agency should be allowed to work against the interest of the public getting a better service that they would find more desirable.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Not so strange jis when you consider that the Republicans in Congress vote against everything that is beneficial to the vast majority of the people! Its also common in Government as agencies and departments fight turf wars and compete for more funding and expansion of their turf!


----------



## Brian_tampa

AAF to cost $2.5 billion. The $1.5 billion number is for track infrastructure only. The other $1billion is for train sets, stations, and startup costs. The RRIF loan is only for the track improvements as per the loan program guidelines. Expected start date is now mid 2016. Not unexpected as the schedule was aggressive considering the EIS would be completed as late as first of 2015. This is a more realistic date and budget than previously heard. Also, their website will be relaunched this week. Here is part of the WPB article from this evening:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-president-defends-safety-of-pas/nfbp6/

The project has been talked about for two years as a $1.5 billion endeavor. But Reininger clarified Wednesday that covers improvements to the tracks, new tracks between Cocoa and Orlando, the signaling systems and other infrastructure for the rail line. Cost of the trains, the stations, start-up and operational costs boost that to nearly $2.5 billion, he said.

Reininger said bids for the first construction projects should be released in the coming weeks. These will be small preparatory projects, and none is likely in Palm Beach County, he said.


----------



## chrsjrcj

NARP: All Aboard Florida needs your help

Opposition for the project has made the front page of the Palm Beach Post the last two days.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

It was never going to be built anyway.


----------



## jis

Allow me to strike a discordant note into this party.....

On this one I am not going to unequivocally support NARP's position. Seriously AAF and FEC need to consider adding stops between West Palm Beach and Cocoa, and make a commitment to that effect, including perhaps at Cocoa itself. Failing that I am all for a little resistance to this project in its current form.

The deal that they struck with Beach Line Toll Authority was a bad one. They should own upto it and renegotiate that.

So sorry. No help of the sort requested, from me at this moment. I will be educating people about the whole issue.

So yes, I am sending a letter to Rick Scott, who effective July 1 will be my Governor (sadly), and that letter is going to be quite different from the one that NARP proposes. And trust me I am an ardent rail advocate. Rail service for as many as possible, not just a select few that are convenient for a few. Once I get there I will be spending some time campaigning for the more inclusive approach.

This is very similar to the problem that we have with Amtrak's Next Gen HSR project in NJ. NJ basically becomes a flyover country as currently proposed for the Super Express service, and that would not be acceptable either.


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> So yes, I am sending a letter to Rick Scott, who effective July 1 will be my Governor (sadly)


Eh, you're trading Christie for Scott, that isn't too big a step down. 

I was also going to write my own - I'm interesting in reading what you end up sending if you don't mind sharing...


----------



## jis

RyanS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, I am sending a letter to Rick Scott, who effective July 1 will be my Governor (sadly)
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, you're trading Christie for Scott, that isn't too big a step down.
> 
> I was also going to write my own - I'm interesting in reading what you end up sending if you don't mind sharing...
Click to expand...

Sure. I will do this after I get back from Israel, so maybe in early May or so. The basic points I will include, I have already presented in some form or another in this thread.

Yeah, well, who the Governor is has not been a major consideration in all this. They come and go every so often, and hopefully the damage done by each can be kept relatively contained.


----------



## afigg

Did All Aboard Florida update their website recently? I had not checked in some time, but they now have a snazzy looking website.

The front page of the website has an info item on taking a maximum of 60 seconds for a passenger train to clear an intersection, so they obviously working to push back against the controversy on the grade crossings.

There is a link to a April 18 Sunshine State Q&A phone interview with the President and Chief Marketing Office of AAF: Q&A: All Aboard Florida Responds to Sunshine State News.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Congrats jis, you'll love the winters (as you know) and there's actually an honest lawyer and a competent bean counter that we all know and like for neighbors and fellow train lovers!


----------



## Paulus

afigg said:


> Did All Aboard Florida update their website recently? I had not checked in some time, but they now have a snazzy looking website.
> 
> The front page of the website has an info item on taking a maximum of 60 seconds for a passenger train to clear an intersection, so they obviously working to push back against the controversy on the grade crossings.
> 
> There is a link to a April 18 Sunshine State Q&A phone interview with the President and Chief Marketing Office of AAF: Q&A: All Aboard Florida Responds to Sunshine State News.


They did, they sent an email a few days ago about it.


----------



## Brian_tampa

From the AAF website here is their response to Rep. Patrick Murphy's letters to the FRA. It is a good letter and hopefully will educate Rep Murphy on the issues he has with AAF.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/pdf/pmurphy-response.pdf


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Allow me to strike a discordant note into this party.....
> 
> On this one I am not going to unequivocally support NARP's position. Seriously AAF and FEC need to consider adding stops between West Palm Beach and Cocoa, and make a commitment to that effect, including perhaps at Cocoa itself. Failing that I am all for a little resistance to this project in its current form.
> 
> The deal that they struck with Beach Line Toll Authority was a bad one. They should own upto it and renegotiate that.
> 
> So sorry. No help of the sort requested, from me at this moment. I will be educating people about the whole issue.
> 
> So yes, I am sending a letter to Rick Scott, who effective July 1 will be my Governor (sadly), and that letter is going to be quite different from the one that NARP proposes. And trust me I am an ardent rail advocate. Rail service for as many as possible, not just a select few that are convenient for a few. Once I get there I will be spending some time campaigning for the more inclusive approach.
> 
> This is very similar to the problem that we have with Amtrak's Next Gen HSR project in NJ. NJ basically becomes a flyover country as currently proposed for the Super Express service, and that would not be acceptable either.


*sighs*

And I wind up back in the middle of the two sides. On the one hand, I believe that AAF/FEC should look to add further stops down the line. It's fair enough to say they got a dubious deal from the expressway people, and I'll agree that more stops would be a good thing down the line.

On the other hand, I see no reason that this project shouldn't be a success as envisioned and see no reason not to support it. They got stuck dealing with a third party that stuffed some obnoxious strings into the deal, but the deal was still a decent one and how it played out might well have saved a lengthy fight. The small number of stops also likely simplified various parts of the planning process and provided a "path of least resistance" to follow.

With that said, as I see things this shouldn't be treated quite the same as an Amtrak proposal because it _is_ a largely private-sector operation. If it was FDOT or Amtrak or another public sector agency spearheading this, I'd be all for adding stops to most trains. I'd say the same if there was a government grant paying for most of it (as would be the case with the Super-Express service on the NEC). Neither item is the case, and the extent of the government subsidy is reduced interest on a loan.

Likewise, if those towns want a stop (or stops) and FEC isn't hot on it, as long as FEC is paying for the show it should be up to those towns to negotiate stops on some trains (albeit presumably with state help). If the state were stepping in to pay for those stops and pick up the tab for any incurred losses due to the trains taking longer (and/or paying for the equipment and any track improvements needed to accommodate even more passenger trains on the route), I'd be fine demanding a commitment in return. In the same vein, if the state gets stuck subsidizing the operation and/or FEC defaults on the loan, forcing additional stops onto the service would be fine.

Ultimately, FEC has taken the biggest leap in this direction that any private non-shortline has taken since the Metroliners, and I'm frankly of the opinion that forcing them to add stops that FEC doesn't want to (at least at the outset) would be akin to forcing the Pennsy to run their Metroliners as locals. As long as FEC is paying the loan, in my mind it is their experiment to run. Let them call the shots.


----------



## jphjaxfl

If the local cities want stops, they need to provide some funds to support what they want. All Aboard Florida, the entity that will operate the trains over the Florida East Coast Railroad and the Development Company have done exhaustive studies that have shown where the travel demand is and where fares will justify the cost without subsidies. Anything else besides that original plan should and would require subsidies at the state and local level. Keep in mind that a strong lobby in Florida killed a high speed rail plan that had been approved by Florida voters. It was just after I moved to Jacksonville. I couldn't believe the myths and misinformation that even local representatives were telling people to get them to sign petitions against the already approved plan in front of grocery stores and everywhere you went. I was amazed that local people were so ignorant about passenger trains in general that they believe what they heard and spread it further. Those same instigators are likely trying to kill this project even though no taxpayer funds are involved.


----------



## Anderson

Well, and as far as this particular case goes, one saving grace is that FECI is a major political donor...so that should provide some cover. I will say that it is interesting watching as one side of the spectrum attacks the bullet train while folks on the other promoted it...and then things reverse with this project. If there is a consensus in Florida, it seems to be either "We want a train...we're just not sure which one" or "We want a train...just not the one being promoted right now."


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Well, and as far as this particular case goes, one saving grace is that FECI is a major political donor...so that should provide some cover. I will say that it is interesting watching as one side of the spectrum attacks the bullet train while folks on the other promoted it...and then things reverse with this project. If there is a consensus in Florida, it seems to be either "We want a train...we're just not sure which one" or "We want a train...just not the one being promoted right now."


Actually Anderson, there is alot of support for All Aboard Florida in Florida. Besides Orlando and South Florida, Tampa and Jacksonville are definitely supportive of AAF. The noise you are hearing now is from the Treasure Coast communities. Besides being ticked off that they are not getting a stop with AAF, they have been anti-south Florida as far as development and diversity. In my 17 years living in Florida, people in Port St Lucie to Vero Beach have always talked in somewhat racist terms about people from Miami and Broward, WPB moving northward. That is the real reason why these people don't want AAF. To them AAF represents being assimilated into the larger south Florida metropolis. 
Florida is a diverse state. Central and south Florida are "progressive" whereas parts of SW Florida and north Florida and the panhandle are very much like the rest of the south. That is why it appears that FL is conflicted when it comes to so many things (including presidential elections! Hahah)


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Florida is an uninhabitable sandspit. God knows why people want to inhabit an uninhabitable sand spit. I swear Henry M Flagler was the greatest con-man real estate has ever known.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Green Maned Lion said:


> Florida is an uninhabitable sandspit. God knows why people want to inhabit an uninhabitable sand spit. I swear Henry M Flagler was the greatest con-man real estate has ever known.


LOL, that's actually really funny! :giggle:

It's starting to get humid down here again. Yuck season is here.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, and as far as this particular case goes, one saving grace is that FECI is a major political donor...so that should provide some cover. I will say that it is interesting watching as one side of the spectrum attacks the bullet train while folks on the other promoted it...and then things reverse with this project. If there is a consensus in Florida, it seems to be either "We want a train...we're just not sure which one" or "We want a train...just not the one being promoted right now."
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Anderson, there is alot of support for All Aboard Florida in Florida. Besides Orlando and South Florida, Tampa and Jacksonville are definitely supportive of AAF. The noise you are hearing now is from the Treasure Coast communities. Besides being ticked off that they are not getting a stop with AAF, they have been anti-south Florida as far as development and diversity. In my 17 years living in Florida, people in Port St Lucie to Vero Beach have always talked in somewhat racist terms about people from Miami and Broward, WPB moving northward. That is the real reason why these people don't want AAF. To them AAF represents being assimilated into the larger south Florida metropolis.
> Florida is a diverse state. Central and south Florida are "progressive" whereas parts of SW Florida and north Florida and the panhandle are very much like the rest of the south. That is why it appears that FL is conflicted when it comes to so many things (including presidential elections! Hahah)
Click to expand...

The irony is that, with that attitude, you'd think they would _want_ to get skipped since being skipped should help stall development.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, and as far as this particular case goes, one saving grace is that FECI is a major political donor...so that should provide some cover. I will say that it is interesting watching as one side of the spectrum attacks the bullet train while folks on the other promoted it...and then things reverse with this project. If there is a consensus in Florida, it seems to be either "We want a train...we're just not sure which one" or "We want a train...just not the one being promoted right now."
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Anderson, there is alot of support for All Aboard Florida in Florida. Besides Orlando and South Florida, Tampa and Jacksonville are definitely supportive of AAF. The noise you are hearing now is from the Treasure Coast communities. Besides being ticked off that they are not getting a stop with AAF, they have been anti-south Florida as far as development and diversity. In my 17 years living in Florida, people in Port St Lucie to Vero Beach have always talked in somewhat racist terms about people from Miami and Broward, WPB moving northward. That is the real reason why these people don't want AAF. To them AAF represents being assimilated into the larger south Florida metropolis.Florida is a diverse state. Central and south Florida are "progressive" whereas parts of SW Florida and north Florida and the panhandle are very much like the rest of the south. That is why it appears that FL is conflicted when it comes to so many things (including presidential elections! Hahah)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The irony is that, with that attitude, you'd think they would _want_ to get skipped since being skipped should help stall development.
Click to expand...

They want to stop the whole project completely is what they want. Their demand is that AAF build a completely new route west of their cities. Of course, that is never going to happen! Some people might be satisfied if they get a stop, but mostly they just do not want it.


----------



## jphjaxfl

There's also a lot of negatism about passenger rail in the area of the Villages, Wildwood, Ocala. They had a huge lobby to repeal the previous rail plan approved by the Florida voters. Ironically most of those against are retirees from other areas of the US.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Bunch of cranky old snowbird NIMBYs! "Get off my lawn!" LOL


----------



## Brian_Tampa

And a bunch of old snowbirds who are against spending any money on anything they don't need! It's definitely the "I got mine, so screw the rest of you" attitude. Some people are just against any and all change unless it benefits them. Ask the average old fart if he is okay with cutting his SS or Medicare benefits? A huge difference on that!!


----------



## George Harris

There is a saying in the Florida Panhandle, "In Florida, the further north you go, the further south you are." There is the general feeling that the state is getting over cluttered with Yankee retirees in the lower peninsula. Brian has it exactly right. Try to get any state spending on education past these self centered clods. They seem to desire to turn the state into a third world country where they are the ones with the money and the rest of the population becomes a bunch of low paid servants to their whims.


----------



## neroden

Unfortunately, everything south of Orlando is going to sink under the waves as the sea level rises. I am a bit pessimistic about any improvements made there. I wonder where the refugees will move to. The refugees from New Orleans apparently mostly ended up in Texas and liberalized it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

neroden said:


> Unfortunately, everything south of Orlando is going to sink under the waves as the sea level rises. I am a bit pessimistic about any improvements made there. I wonder where the refugees will move to. The refugees from New Orleans apparently mostly ended up in Texas and liberalized it.


Perhaps the people who came to Austin did but the rest of Texas is still pretty much Fixed Noise Territory with the Worst Politicians money can buy! Sigh
And apologies to our Florida AU friends but it seems that Florida isn't much better! Here in Texas we say "Thank goodness for Mississippi and Alabama, they keep us from being on the bottom on all the lists!


----------



## pennyk

jimhudson said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, everything south of Orlando is going to sink under the waves as the sea level rises. I am a bit pessimistic about any improvements made there. I wonder where the refugees will move to. The refugees from New Orleans apparently mostly ended up in Texas and liberalized it.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the people who came to Austin did but the rest of Texas is still pretty much Fixed Noise Territory with the Worst Politicians money can buy! Sigh
> And apologies to our Florida AU friends but it seems that Florida isn't much better! Here in Texas we say "Thank goodness for Mississippi and Alabama, they keep us from being on the bottom on all the lists!
Click to expand...

Jim, we, in Florida say the same thing about Mississippi and Alabama. Unfortunately, most Floridians love their cars much more than they like the environment or the well being of any future generations.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

If you think the greatest generation of old farts are a self centered bunch of pricks, just wait until the baby boomers get through with it. We'll need BNSFs entire hopper fleet to clean up the rubble.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Actually Lion the Baby Boomers are the Generation who helped stop the Vietnam War, pushed for Environmental Awareness and were the back bone of the Civil Rights and Feminist Movement?

The ones you're talking about are the rich greed heads of all ages that live in gated communities, listen to hate radio and Fixed News and vote for t-baggers that dance to the tune that the Corporations and Rich Haters like the Mooch er Kooch Brothers provide them!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

No, trust me. The baby boomers will be worse. Just cuz they did good stuff when properly bombed outta there mind on pot doesn't mean they know better now. They are wealthier and twice as selfish.


----------



## Ryan

neroden said:


> Unfortunately, everything south of Orlando is going to sink under the waves as the sea level rises.


Unfortunately? 

(I'm joking)

((mostly))


----------



## cirdan

Green Maned Lion said:


> No, trust me. The baby boomers will be worse. Just cuz they did good stuff when properly bombed outta there mind on pot doesn't mean they know better now. They are wealthier and twice as selfish.


Roll on the quote by W. Churchill (or was it G. Clemenceau?) that if a man isn't a socialist when he's 20 he has no heart, but if he's still a socialist when he's 40 he has no brain.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who smoked pot and opposed the Vietnam War when they were 20 are indeed today's racist t-baggers. Time can do strange things to people's memories.

Of course in reality the majority of voters are neither tin-hat t-baggers nor carmic hippies but just normal people in the middle whose sympathies can sometimes align with one group, sometimes with the other, and sometimes with neither.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, trust me. The baby boomers will be worse. Just cuz they did good stuff when properly bombed outta there mind on pot doesn't mean they know better now. They are wealthier and twice as selfish.
> 
> 
> 
> Roll on the quote by W. Churchill (or was it G. Clemenceau?) that if a man isn't a socialist when he's 20 he has no heart, but if he's still a socialist when he's 40 he has no brain.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who smoked pot and opposed the Vietnam War when they were 20 are indeed today's racist t-baggers. Time can do strange things to people's memories.
> 
> Of course in reality the majority of voters are neither tin-hat t-baggers nor carmic hippies but just normal people in the middle whose sympathies can sometimes align with one group, sometimes with the other, and sometimes with neither.
Click to expand...

It was Churchill, and it was a "Liberal" and a "Conservative". The context was Churchill explaining his jumps between parties (he was first elected as a Tory, switched to being a Liberal, and then switched back as the Liberals collapsed in the 20s).


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, trust me. The baby boomers will be worse. Just cuz they did good stuff when properly bombed outta there mind on pot doesn't mean they know better now. They are wealthier and twice as selfish.
> 
> 
> 
> Roll on the quote by W. Churchill (or was it G. Clemenceau?) that if a man isn't a socialist when he's 20 he has no heart, but if he's still a socialist when he's 40 he has no brain.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who smoked pot and opposed the Vietnam War when they were 20 are indeed today's racist t-baggers. Time can do strange things to people's memories.
> 
> Of course in reality the majority of voters are neither tin-hat t-baggers nor carmic hippies but just normal people in the middle whose sympathies can sometimes align with one group, sometimes with the other, and sometimes with neither.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was Churchill, and it was a "Liberal" and a "Conservative". The context was Churchill explaining his jumps between parties (he was first elected as a Tory, switched to being a Liberal, and then switched back as the Liberals collapsed in the 20s).
Click to expand...

Probably, it was both ...

or neither ...

http://katecarruthers.com/2005/02/alleged-quote-by-churchill-on-being-a-socialist-or-conservative/

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/if_youre_not_a_liberal_at_20_you_have_no_heart_if_not_a_conservative_at_40


----------



## MARC Rider

Green Maned Lion said:


> No, trust me. The baby boomers will be worse. Just cuz they did good stuff when properly bombed outta there mind on pot doesn't mean they know better now. They are wealthier and twice as selfish.


I think maybe you're overgeneralizing about "baby boomers," Not every person born between 1946 and 1964 was a pot-smoking, long haired hippie-freak with leftwing political views. I myself discovered this in the later 1970s when I attended graduate school at a large state university in flyover country after having done my undergraduate in a private liberal arts college (also in flyover country FWIW) full of shaggy leftwing types. The baby boomer generation has more diversity than lazy glib op-ed columnists would like to admit. However, it is true that there is a subset of formerly shaggy leftwing Baby Boomers who morphed into identical copies of their uptight politically conservative parents.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

No of course they aren't. But they are all selfish.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> No of course they aren't. But they are all selfish.


All Generalities are False including this one!
Not All Lion, Some! Its Human Nature not Exclusive to any Generation!


----------



## beautifulplanet

Off-topic post about a alleged Churchill quote. 



Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roll on the quote by W. Churchill (or was it G. Clemenceau?) that if a man isn't a socialist when he's 20 he has no heart, but if he's still a socialist when he's 40 he has no brain.
> 
> 
> 
> It was Churchill, and it was a "Liberal" and a "Conservative". The context was Churchill explaining his jumps between parties (he was first elected as a Tory, switched to being a Liberal, and then switched back as the Liberals collapsed in the 20s).
Click to expand...

When looking at all the existing information about this quote, and all the variations that exist of it, to most people it might be clear that the sentence above (or a variation of it) is not a Churchill quote.

For a good explanation and some research on it see here:

http://katecarruthers.com/2005/02/alleged-quote-by-churchill-on-being-a-socialist-or-conservative/

And in the following here is the statement by the Churchill Center non-profit organization based in Illinois:



> "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"


Source: https://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/quotations/quotes-falsely-attributed

It's especially confusing when this alleged quote is being used by human beings residing in the US, as then they typically would perceive the terms "liberal" and "conservative" in an American way, as those reference points on the typical US political spectrum, while even if it was ever said with these terms than it would have referred to the political parties of those names in the UK (Churchill probably would not have cared about the political spectrum of the US), and that has serious implications, as conservative in the UK (in the sense of the political party) means something completely different (support of government-run single-payer health care, support of the monarchy etc.) than what US residents might imagine when they hear "conservative".

Still it's just very likely that this is a fantasy quote, and it's weird to see it come up again and again (those it does make sense that it possibly would, though it most likely is inaccurate, as some might think the quote favors conservatism and so it makes sense that I've personally already heard it being used by objectivists and conservatives). One should probably start printing t-shirts "Churchill did not say this" in an attempt to counter the misinformation...  

Hope it is not bad that this off-topic post about the alleged Churchill quote can be found in this thread now.


----------



## jis

As I mentioned before attitudes towards AAF is tending to become more hostile in Brevard County with the realization that there is no positives for the county in the project.

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2014/04/29/commissioners-may-rethink-high-speed-rail-service/8496799/

This article from last year gives a clear indication that on the Brevard County and the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization (one of the MPOs) is quite supportive of introduction of rail passenger service, and mention is made of pushing for a possible Cocoa stop for AAF, as we ll as Amtrak service on the FEC.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/7/2/_2_train_projects_ch.html

I think it would be desirable to channel this county more towards a stance of serious negotiation with AAF for a stop in Cocoa ASAP, rather than outright opposition. Also need to use the good offices of the Governor to get the Beach Line Toll folks to back off from the restrictive conditions they have placed on AAF. That is the approach that I am thinking of taking as I prepare to become a resident of this county. It really serves no purpose at all to create bitterness over such an issue when there are possible ways of putting together a mutually agreeable solution. Of course the issue of negotiating new agreements on cost sharing responsibilities regarding grade crossings has to be handled regardless. The business about old structures being damaged by passing passenger trains when they are doing fine with passing freight trains appears to be a bogus one to me. Gotta get down there and start going to these Commission meetings to educate I suppose.

Incidentally, it is now mid 2014 and still there is not a sign of any construction of anything at all anywhere in Brevard County as far as I can tell. And certainly there is no visible sign of any construction along the Beach Line either.

and then there is of course this one about a separate high speed Maglev link between Orlando International and Port Canaveral.

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/brevard-county/officials-highspeed-rail-could-connect-oia-with-port-canaveral/24313412

Sigh. Why not a little branch off of the AAF from Cocoa to Port Canaveral? That would be too logical I suppose.

At least the Brevard MPO is actively engaged in encouraging development of rail along several corridors and urging FDOT to get on with it.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/PlanDevel/Comments/General/BrevardMPO-072308.pdf


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You know this is all smoke and mirrors, my friend.


----------



## Paulus

Green Maned Lion said:


> You know this is all smoke and mirrors, my friend.


Intended to hide what, however? And I rather doubt Gene Skoropowski would have been signed on to something that's merely smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I will believe in it the same time I believe in any new train or bus service- when it turns a wheel in revenue service.


----------



## Scott Orlando

*I am hopeful that this thread (*my favorite AU thread*) can go back to bashing NIMBYs, wondering about consists and digging up difficult to find info about AAF....and keep the politics neutral or a on seperate thread. *


----------



## cirdan

I share the concerns of some of the previous posters.

This project started with such a bang and an extremely ambitious schedule.

And now we're just looking on as month after month slips by with nothing happening.

As far as I know, no major construction work has begun. No trains have been ordered.

Even the major train terminals, which are supposed to be the money-spinning core of the project are so far just sketchy doodles on the maps.

What's going on?


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> I share the concerns of some of the previous posters.
> 
> This project started with such a bang and an extremely ambitious schedule.
> 
> And now we're just looking on as month after month slips by with nothing happening.
> 
> As far as I know, no major construction work has begun. No trains have been ordered.
> 
> Even the major train terminals, which are supposed to be the money-spinning core of the project are so far just sketchy doodles on the maps.
> 
> What's going on?


Basically, my understanding is that the RRIF loan agreements need to get straightened out. With that said, I suspect that the initial start of service date was overblown to try and generate excitement.


----------



## jis

Looks like FRA wants full 4 quadrant gates at most crossings north of West Palm beach and is sort of siding with the counties on this matter. This could get ugly since I doubt that the EIS will be approved without a resolution of this issue.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/federal-rail-official-blasts-all-aboard-floridas-s/nfS39/

And this does not even include Indian River and Brevard county crossings where trains will be operating at 110 mph.

Meanwhile, opposition in Brevard county is starting to heat up. Just heard of a big meeting of Realtors in Cocoa with opposition to the AAF proposal on its agenda, unless the realtors have something to gain from it through provision of station(s) in Brevard county, just as I had surmised would happen earlier in this thread. I am providing them info to try to get those few that want to outright oppose to a position where support is conditional upon provision of service, which has been my position all along. I know some here probably hate me for it, but that is OK by me. It is a genuine difference of opinion, and we have to learn to live with it.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Looks like FRA wants full 4 quadrant gates at most crossings north of West Palm beach and is sort of siding with the counties on this matter. This could get ugly since I doubt that the EIS will be approved without a resolution of this issue.http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/federal-rail-official-blasts-all-aboard-floridas-s/nfS39/And this does not even include Indian River and Brevard county crossings where trains will be operating at 110 mph.Meanwhile, opposition in Brevard county is starting to heat up. Just heard of a big meeting of Realtors in Cocoa with opposition to the AAF proposal on its agenda, unless the realtors have something to gain from it through provision of station(s) in Brevard county, just as I had surmised would happen earlier in this thread. I am providing them info to try to get those few that want to outright oppose to a position where support is conditional upon provision of service, which has been my position all along. I know some here probably hate me for it, but that is OK by me. It is a genuine difference of opinion, and we have to learn to live with it.


From what I understand, the "sealed corridor" design that you refer to is actually just a recommendation by the FRA. The actual responsibility for regulating safety features for trains going that fast (speeds of 90-110 mph) is left to individual states and their own DOTs. Here in FL, there are no regulations yet for higher speed trains and FDOT could go either way with this issue. Therefore, AAF will follow the direction laid out by FDOT.

The EIS report will cover safety, but since the "sealed corridor" features (such as raised medians, full quant gates, etc..) are not necessary per FRA/USDOT regulations, whether or not AAF decides to implement the "sealed corridor" will not effect the EIS report nor the RRIF application.

As far as the opposition, the opponents of AAF have really been spreading lies and misinformation the past few months. Unfortunately for them, there really is not much that can stop AAF. Their main complaint is that adding 32 more trains will "destroy" their "peaceful and tranquil" communities. As a history guide, look up the frequency of FECR freight trains over the past 20 years. Might be surprised to learn that FECR ran 2-3 times the number of daily freight trains as they do now! And the claims that future freight traffic will rise considerably (and that AAF is just a play by FECR for added trains, tracks, etc.l.) due to the new panama canal and port expansion in south FL are laughable as well. An FECR executive recently came out and said even one more Panamax boat per day would not add a single new northbound train. That is because existing trains haul so many empty containers back north. FECR appears to have plenty of capacity to fill existing northbound trains with new traffic.

For Brevard county, a station stop is going to be a tough sell as the lease agreement that AAF and OOCEA signed last year placed conditions on any additional stops in areas that serve to feed their toll road (Beachline expressway). I believe Brevard county was included (or at least the Cocoa area). Perhaps a stop could be made for southbound traffic only?


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## jis

Having sat through EIS processes I would not be as sure as you seem to be about how these things go. But of course only time will tell.

That OOCEA agreement is unconscionable and should be challenged and rescinded, and the only way that it can be done is politically, and that unfortunately may dredge in other random issues. All that the agreement says is that OOCEA must be consulted and permission gotten from them before a stop is added. So it is not like it is ruled out. With an appropriate amount of political pressure brought to bear that can be fixed, or so I am told. A public agency is not supposed to create barriers to general public good just to serve its own interests. Of course not that that would stop self perpetuating public bureaucracies trying to do so at each step. It is important to thwart such IMHO.

Yes there is a lot of nonsense flying around. But there also are legitimate issues that should be addressed. Just IMHO of course. I am just trying to strike the right balance between pointless extreme positions as I see it.

But again, considering that no shovel has yet gone into the ground for anything, and not a stitch of brush has been cleared or rail or ties delivered to any track-side site for even the double tracking work yet, and we are now getting to mid-2014 by when service was supposed to have already started, and even the revised schedule places it just over a year away, who knows what is actually going on?

In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Having sat through EIS processes I would not be as sure as you seem to be about how these things go. But of course only time will tell.That OOCEA agreement is unconscionable and should be challenged and rescinded, and the only way that it can be done is politically, and that unfortunately may dredge in other random issues. All that the agreement says is that OOCEA must be consulted and permission gotten from them before a stop is added. So it is not like it is ruled out. With an appropriate amount of political pressure brought to bear that can be fixed, or so I am told. A public agency is not supposed to create barriers to general public good just to serve its own interests. Of course not that that would stop self perpetuating public bureaucracies trying to do so at each step. It is important to thwart such IMHO.Yes there is a lot of nonsense flying around. But there also are legitimate issues that should be addressed. Just IMHO of course. I am just trying to strike the right balance between pointless extreme positions as I see it.But again, considering that no shovel has yet gone into the ground for anything, and not a stitch of brush has been cleared or rail or ties delivered to any track-side site for even the double tracking work yet, and we are now getting to mid-2014 by when service was supposed to have already started, and even the revised schedule places it just over a year away, who knows what is actually going on?In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.


The EIS and RRIF statement was based on information I was told by some people involved in the project. If the FRA doesnt mandate the sealed corridor, how can they demand that AAF install it? I dont have a history of cases previously where that was what happened. I would appreciate any info anyone may have on sealed corridors and 90-110mph operation in regards to the EIS.

Alot of the sealed corridor items would also help implement quiet zones. That has been a big issue with the Treasure Coast people as far as maintaining the crossings at government expense. IMO I think there are opponents who will never be happy and just want to see AAF stopped completely.

The OOCEA agreement also says AAF will pay for a traffic diversion study and also renegotiate the lease agreement to include extra payments for the lost revenue! Of course it will be political. From what I know, the agreement between AAF, OOCEA, Deseret Ranches and FDOT was very political as well as complex. I am sure there was alot of horse trading going on. I am actually surprised it happened.

Yes there is definitely alot of horse manure being spread! There are of course some valid concerns, but when you get people complaining of parking spaces lost (that the city of Stuart leases land for from FECR), wildlife getting killed in a state park that was created 50+ years after the railway was built, how drawbridges will be down 45 minutes of every hour... And so on and so forth. That is what drives me crazy about these NIMBYs on the east coast. Most of them do not want to work with AAF or compromise in anyway.

Personally, I think FECI/AAF really underestimated the time to go through the EIS and RRIF loan processes. And add in the 18 months of negotiations with the GOAA for the Orlando terminal. AAF will run only when the south terminal station at OIA is ready to open. That is the Achilles heel of the project. AAF has little control over the construction schedule that project. My guess is that AAF is waiting for some sign that the RRIF loans will be approved. For the NEC project you mention, when did they start their EIS process and start looking for funding?


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## jis

Brian, I do agree with your assessment overall. So don't get me wrong based on my previous comments. I just look for a more rational understanding of the reality of the situation including a reasonable assessment of the political realities. A very respected senior rail advocate that I work with from time to time always reminds me that there is very little that is technical standing in the way of anything. The hardest problems are political, always. And consequently a level headed, unemotional assessment of those is essential to help move things in the right direction.

As for the NEC project, it does not need an EIS since it is all well within the existing ROW (about as completely shovel ready as it can be!). They were funded out of HSIPR money returned by Wisconsin and/or Florida. Even they were surprised when they received the funding and had to scramble to get the project together and off the ground. I know both the executive in charge and the chief engineer personally, and it is very interesting to hear from them the story of what happened when they learned that they had got the funding. 

At present they are busy putting in foundations for hundreds of new electrification posts. One of the four tracks is being taken out of service in segments and the track is being rebuilt ground up this year. Same will be done on the other three tracks, one track each year. Haven't quite figured out what is the plan for replacing the catenary with constant tension ones, but clearly that happens after the basic support infrastructure (post, feeders etc.) is in place.

As for EISs, one EIS that has descended into a complete circus that I am aware of, is the one for Lackawanna Cutoff. Now that rare turtles or whatever has been taken care of, I guess all are waiting with baited breath to see if some rare mushroom rears its head.  OTOH, there are other EISs that sail through relatively easily. As for whether anything actually can be built sometimes becomes an issue like in case of the Empire Corridor EIS, when the owner of the property involved baulks - CSX in this case. Of course that is not a problem with FEC, but could be with Florida State or other bodies, some of which has been handled already by AAF at least for the moment.

Usually the problem in getting EISs approved is not the FRA itself but everyone else that becomes a stakeholder by virtue of being impacted by the project. FRA usually acts as an extremely political animal in how it goes about deciding on a ROD, and thus becomes more or less completely unpredictable.


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## neroden

jis said:


> In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.


And there's a huge amount going on in Michigan. And visible construction between Albany and Schenectady. And so on.


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## CHamilton

All Aboard Florida to create thousands of jobs, study says


> Construction of a passenger rail line that would connect Miami to Orlando is expected to create more than 10,000 jobs in Florida, according to a study by The Washington Economics Group.
> The All Aboard Florida project would generate $2.4 billion labor income and over $600 million in tax revenues for federal, state and local governments, according to the study. Beyond the first two years of the project, the rail line will support an estimated average of 5,000 jobs annually through 2021. Once the construction is complete, it will support over 2,000 permanent jobs.


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## jis

So does this imply that construction will continue till 2021?


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## Green Maned Lion

It would seem that way, wouldn't it?


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## Anderson

Interesting. I do wonder what that involves...further extensions, maybe (JAX/TPA)?


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> So does this imply that construction will continue till 2021?


In the economic study this quote came from, the date 2021 is meaning that the project has achieved full build out. This is not just the rail component, but also construction of all of the planned TOD under the control of AAF/FECI. The rail part is expected to fully operation sometime in 2016. 
There is nothing in the report that mentions expansion to Tampa or Jacksonville.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/files/economic-impact-full-report.pdf


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## Anderson

Ok, that makes some sense. That was really the only other guess I had, since the project taking until 2021 to start service would be a bit of a jump. It looks like the Miami project is huge (I didn't expect it to be nearly so big), and the others aren't insignificant, either.


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## afigg

All Aboard Florida is not thinking small or modest for the Miami downtown station (well, terminal to be precise). Miami Herald: Miami-Orlando train executives unveil plans for massive downtown station, shops. There are full size renderings with the article. Excerpt:



> All Aboard Florida revealed plans Wednesday for the flagship station of its proposed cross-state passenger-train service, a shimmering, four-block-long labyrinth of shops, restaurant, offices and, oh yes, tracks, perched on a floating platform in downtown Miami.
> 
> The 50-foot-tall platform is part of an 11.2-acre development that stretches from just east of Government Center to the Overtown Metrorail stop. It’s topped by three towers varying in height from 15 to 28 stories, and flanked by an 80-story skyscraper.
> 
> All Aboard Florida executives and city officials believe the station complex, about 3 million square feet, will spur commercial development for miles in all directions as well as become an iconic city landmark like the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge or New York’s Grand Central Station.


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## edjbox

Would All Aboard Florida connect to any Amtrak stations? If so, and perhaps later Amtrak uses the FEC line for one of its LD trains, could there perhaps be some joint ticketing or codeshare agreement between Amtrak and AAF??


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## Anderson

Tough question. On the one hand, in an attempt to avoid STB oversight, AAF stated that they have no plans to through-ticket with Amtrak. However, it does seem likely that there would be some connectivity in Jacksonville (should that line come to pass) whether AAF wants it or not, since the two station locations are relatively close.

As to an Amtrak train using the FEC tracks, that is another tricky question. It is highly likely that Amtrak would want to run all LD trains into their new station at the airport (and not AAF's station downtown), if only for maintenance reasons. They would _probably_ want to cross back to the present Amtrak line as far north as possible, since having one train stop at one station and another stop elsewhere would confuse people...that sort of situation hasn't been a "thing" in 40 years. AAF being at one station and Amtrak at another is one thing, but having AAF at one station, some Amtrak trains at the other...and then one odd Amtrak train at the AAF station? Cue confusion.

To be fair, in some places this would be more of an issue than others. In West Palm Beach, the FEC station appears to be planned for a site roughly 1500 feet from the present Amtrak station, so straightening out a mix-up would involve less of a walk than some airport terminals involve. In Fort Lauderdale, the distance would be more like a mile. Miami and Orlando provide the biggest messes: Miami would be around 5-6 miles, and Orlando...is roughly the same distance in terms of travel time from the Orlando and Kissimmee stations (which is to say, around 20 minutes each, depending on how they ultimately sort out the parking lots at the Orlando Airport Station...bear in mind that the airport is like 4-5 miles across, so the south entrance is closer to Kissimmee while the north entrance is closer to Orlando).


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## edjbox

First point: I think you're right about AAF not through-ticketing to Amtrak since it is a startup operation introducing new passenger service that has not had service recently. However, concerning other routes in the Amtrak system, if someone other than Amtrak successfully bids for an existing route (such as the Hoosier State), then they probably have to have access to the Amtrak Reservation system, through-ticketing, codeshare or whatever, based on the PRIIA.

Second point: I was going to say that Richmond has two train stations with LD trains heading south bypassing the Main St one, but a better example of two different train stations for different trains is Boston, with South Station serving the NEC and LSL routes while North Station serves only the Downeaster. Another even better example was in NYC with Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal until 1991.

If Amtrak ever ends up extending the Palmetto down the FEC to Miami (possibly once the Viewliner IIs are introduced), then they will have to go to AAF's Downtown Station (at least temporarily) until TriRail ever builds that rail connection to link the CSX and FEC line somewhere in South Florida. Even with the re-introduction of the sleeper, the Palmetto would probably have a much different consist than the other Florida Silver Service trains (probably only 1 sleeper if same schedule north of Savannah is kept) and means that it won't have to be maintained at Hialeah.


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## Anderson

Boston is a good example. I guess the best example there would be if you had a stray Regional or two serving BON instead of BOS.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the solution to this will end up being some clunky backup move somewhere in South Florida. I know there are connections between FEC and CSX (one is a few miles north of the West Palm Beach station), so you could back the train up from the FEC line to the CSX line and have it proceed south from there.


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## edjbox

I saw the connection between FEC and CSX on a map, but it needs some work. Based on several articles I've read, they will first rehab the existing section from CSX to FEC and then add a brand new connection from the FEC to the CSX just south on 25th street. So there won't be a need for a backup move.


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## jis

Where is there any mention of extending Palmetto to anywhere? The only mention in any official documents that I have seen for Amtrak service on FEC involves splitting one or both the Silvers at JAX. Could someone point me to any document that speaks of extending Palmetto that is sourced from Amtrak? If not I'd just treat that as someone's personal fantasy for the time being.

For reference you can see one of the several options of schedule that appear in the Service Development Plan as in the Option C Schedule.







All of the proposed schedules involve splitting either one or both Silvers at JAX to run a section down the FEC. No mention of Palmetto anywhere. There is mention of adding additional Sleepers to the Silvers. It is higky unlikely that Florida will fund anything that runs through Flroida in the middle of the night. Not until there are half a dozen daytime trains running first.

I also do not believe Amtrak will start any service on FEC until there is a crossover from FEC to CSX that is something other than using an industrial siding lead. It just ain't gonna happen. Also not to mention, there will be no service until there are stations.

BTW, this 2006 FDOT Vision Plan is interesting, specially to put the AAF project within a broader context.


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## Brian_tampa

A good discussion between Mr. Michael Reininger (AAF Pres of development) and an opponent from the Martin County Taxpayer Association:

http://www.wptv.com/news/political/elections-local/to-the-point-sunday-june-1-2014-the-debate-over-all-aboard-florida

Alot of misinformation out there in regards to negative impacts on road crossings, drawbridges, etc... But it is good to see AAF finally finding their voice and mounting their own PR campaign in the past month or so.

One bit of info that has come out several times in the past month is that with or without a RRIF loan, AAF plans to move ahead. Not sure what impact that has on the EIS if they don't get the RRIF loan. Would that mean that for the existing rail corridor up to Cocoa, that minimal studies and mitigation would be required if they used only private money? I understand that the new ROW from Cocoa to Orlando would require an EIS no matter what happens financially.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Where is there any mention of extending Palmetto to anywhere? The only mention in any official documents that I have seen for Amtrak service on FEC involves splitting one or both the Silvers at JAX. Could someone point me to any document that speaks of extending Palmetto that is sourced from Amtrak? If not I'd just treat that as someone's personal fantasy for the time being.
> 
> For reference you can see one of the several options of schedule that appear in the Service Development Plan as in the Option C Schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the proposed schedules involve splitting either one or both Silvers at JAX to run a section down the FEC. No mention of Palmetto anywhere. There is mention of adding additional Sleepers to the Silvers. It is higky unlikely that Florida will fund anything that runs through Flroida in the middle of the night. Not until there are half a dozen daytime trains running first.
> 
> I also do not believe Amtrak will start any service on FEC until there is a crossover from FEC to CSX that is something other than using an industrial siding lead. It just ain't gonna happen. Also not to mention, there will be no service until there are stations.
> 
> BTW, this 2006 FDOT Vision Plan is interesting, specially to put the AAF project within a broader context.


Yes I have been aware of this study for several years since the HSR proposal between Tampa and Orlando back in 2009. It is amazing that AAF basically is copying the Coastal Route detailed on page 12. I think phase II is what AAF will ultimately look like in another 10-15 years. I know that AAF has been in contact with FDOT in regards to ensuring that the HSR envelop on I-4 is intact between Orlando and Tampa. Several FDOT projects in the next 10 years could impact that envelop and AAF wants it to be saved.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Tough question. On the one hand, in an attempt to avoid STB oversight, AAF stated that they have no plans to through-ticket with Amtrak. However, it does seem likely that there would be some connectivity in Jacksonville (should that line come to pass) whether AAF wants it or not, since the two station locations are relatively close.
> 
> As to an Amtrak train using the FEC tracks, that is another tricky question. It is highly likely that Amtrak would want to run all LD trains into their new station at the airport (and not AAF's station downtown), if only for maintenance reasons. They would _probably_ want to cross back to the present Amtrak line as far north as possible, since having one train stop at one station and another stop elsewhere would confuse people...that sort of situation hasn't been a "thing" in 40 years. AAF being at one station and Amtrak at another is one thing, but having AAF at one station, some Amtrak trains at the other...and then one odd Amtrak train at the AAF station? Cue confusion.
> 
> To be fair, in some places this would be more of an issue than others. In West Palm Beach, the FEC station appears to be planned for a site roughly 1500 feet from the present Amtrak station, so straightening out a mix-up would involve less of a walk than some airport terminals involve. In Fort Lauderdale, the distance would be more like a mile. Miami and Orlando provide the biggest messes: Miami would be around 5-6 miles, and Orlando...is roughly the same distance in terms of travel time from the Orlando and Kissimmee stations (which is to say, around 20 minutes each, depending on how they ultimately sort out the parking lots at the Orlando Airport Station...bear in mind that the airport is like 4-5 miles across, so the south entrance is closer to Kissimmee while the north entrance is closer to Orlando).


I've always wondered why Amtrak's station of choice in Miami is the airport and not a downtown location. Do many people really connect from flights to the Silver Services? Ideally trains would serve both locations, but looking at the map I see it's pretty difficult to find a route that serves both, even if you don't mind multiple backup moves and do manage to get full cooperation of the freight railroads.


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## cirdan

afigg said:


> All Aboard Florida is not thinking small or modest for the Miami downtown station (well, terminal to be precise). Miami Herald: Miami-Orlando train executives unveil plans for massive downtown station, shops. There are full size renderings with the article. Excerpt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Aboard Florida revealed plans Wednesday for the flagship station of its proposed cross-state passenger-train service, a shimmering, four-block-long labyrinth of shops, restaurant, offices and, oh yes, tracks, perched on a floating platform in downtown Miami.
> 
> The 50-foot-tall platform is part of an 11.2-acre development that stretches from just east of Government Center to the Overtown Metrorail stop. It’s topped by three towers varying in height from 15 to 28 stories, and flanked by an 80-story skyscraper.
> 
> All Aboard Florida executives and city officials believe the station complex, about 3 million square feet, will spur commercial development for miles in all directions as well as become an iconic city landmark like the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge or New York’s Grand Central Station.
Click to expand...

Wow, if those rendering are anything like what the final structure will resemble, that will be one impressive station.

A pity there aren't any track level renderings. I wonder how many tracks they are planning to provide, and whether they will be able to handle future service expansion.


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## Caesar La Rock

It looks like this project will be split into two phases, according to this interview.

http://www.wjno.com/articles/1290-wjno-local-news-wire-120981/listen-president-of-all-aboard-florida-12421125/

So it's likely they will provide connections to and from Orlando and Cocoa.


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## jis

So Phase I is now limited to Orlando to West Palm Beach, all 79 mph railroad. As for what and when Phase II is appears to be an open ended thing. At least in this segment there was no mention about when Phase II would be completed. There was a bit of hemming hawing about what will actually be operational by 2016. It was not clear about whether it was with regard to West Palm Beach, or with regard to something north of West Palm Beach. Of course the radio guy thought that it might be the case that the whole thing to Orlando will be done by 2016 too, but then afterall he is a radio guy!


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## Anderson

The split makes sense insofar as, IIRC, the loan was splitting along those lines already and FEC was able to get a FONSI for the coastal sections. I do seriously have to wonder, though...if they're just going to Cocoa, why not run some of the trains up to Jacksonville for now (since they have that ROW squared away) and do Orlando if/when the permissions get straightened out?


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## jis

Anderson said:


> The split makes sense insofar as, IIRC, the loan was splitting along those lines already and FEC was able to get a FONSI for the coastal sections. I do seriously have to wonder, though...if they're just going to Cocoa, why not run some of the trains up to Jacksonville for now (since they have that ROW squared away) and do Orlando if/when the permissions get straightened out?


You know? I have wondered about that too. Though that would involve building at least 4 or 5 more stations on the way I suspect. Like Cocoa, Daytona, St. Augustine and Jacksonville Convention Center minimally, assuming they want to stay off of CSX entirely, and maybe Melbourne. All that could of course send the folks at Beach line into a tizzy.


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## Brian_tampa

The split is because AAF has all of the environmental approvals completed for the southern section between MIA and WPB. They received a FONSI from the FRA over a year ago. If they use their own money to build that then they could start tomorrow. A RRIF loan would require a FEIS record of decision. That won't be ready until sometime next year. So, if they don't get the loan until mid 2015, I can easily see the WPB to Orlando section not being complete until end of 2017. That pretty much fits in with the schedule for the airport station construction. I had read where that project wouldn't be complete until end of 2016 at the earliest.

Also, where would the maintenance base for the trains be at for a WPB to MIA operation? And the new Miami terminal appears to have only 3 tracks, not 4 as previously mentioned by AAF documents. You can find more renderings showing this at curbed Miami. Also, Mike Reininger mentioned in the radio interview there would be 16 trains between 7 and 10, not 6 and 9. I assume these times are first and last departures. That would definitely be better for weekend ridership I would think. Leave Miami at 10pm and be in Orlando somewhat rested at 1am vs driving. I would do that! I hate the drive on the turnpike btw especially at night.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The split makes sense insofar as, IIRC, the loan was splitting along those lines already and FEC was able to get a FONSI for the coastal sections. I do seriously have to wonder, though...if they're just going to Cocoa, why not run some of the trains up to Jacksonville for now (since they have that ROW squared away) and do Orlando if/when the permissions get straightened out?
> 
> 
> 
> You know? I have wondered about that too. Though that would involve building at least 4 or 5 more stations on the way I suspect. Like Cocoa, Daytona, St. Augustine and Jacksonville Convention Center minimally, assuming they want to stay off of CSX entirely, and maybe Melbourne. All that could of course send the folks at Beach line into a tizzy.
Click to expand...

That is one possibility, though if they were only selling tickets from Orlando to select stations (MIA, FTL, WPB, and perhaps JAX, St. Augustine, and Daytona) the odds of the Beachline folks being able to do much seem slim since most of the traffic to/from Daytona and points north is going to go to via I-4, not the Beachline.

Stations shouldn't be an issue...in a pinch, FEC could put limited stations in place and expand them 5-10 years down the line (as capital permits and demand dictates), and I think they still own some modest-sized plots in several cities that could be expanded. You could probably get sufficient stations in all of the cities for a relatively low cost ($10-20m).

The most likely explanation is that there would be significant costs associated with needed capacity and/or track condition improvements. The lack of a pre-existing FONSI might also play a role here, though getting that for Cocoa-north shouldn't be _that_ hard. Also, they'd need more trainsets to run anything from end to end...though I suspect that if they ran 2-3 trains/day north of Cocoa to a couple of FECshaks they'd still get substantial ridership, particularly if they were willing to time an early train into Jacksonville to grab the commuter market.

The second most likely explanation is that service on the whole route would get Jacksonville/St. Augustine talking about commuter rail on _that_ end as well and FEC doesn't want to deal with that on top of their little back-and-forth with Tri-Rail. I do think FEC wants to ultimately handle the commuter stuff themselves, even if it means carrying less riders for higher prices than "traditional" commuter rail.

One other thought: 0700 is _late_ to be starting trains from one end to the other. There's a reason the Acela starts at 0600 from NYP and 0500 from WAS.

Brief addendum to the above: Even assuming OOCEA wanted to be a pain about it, a one-way toll is $4.25 on the Beeline from end-to-end (cash toll; E-Pass and SunPass are $3.49). Considering the low level of diversions you'd be getting from the Beeline for points up north and so forth (not to mention that one car can hold multiple people), FEC _might _have to throw OOCEA a quarter for each ticket sold to make up for diversions if they get into a fight over this. Oh, the horror...

Cocoa is another story, but even there some sort of agreement to pay $1 or $2 per one-way ticket for the specific city pair of Orlando-Cocoa (the lower range makes more sense to me) should be doable.


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## Scott Orlando

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tough question. On the one hand, in an attempt to avoid STB oversight, AAF stated that they have no plans to through-ticket with Amtrak. However, it does seem likely that there would be some connectivity in Jacksonville (should that line come to pass) whether AAF wants it or not, since the two station locations are relatively close.
> 
> As to an Amtrak train using the FEC tracks, that is another tricky question. It is highly likely that Amtrak would want to run all LD trains into their new station at the airport (and not AAF's station downtown), if only for maintenance reasons. They would _probably_ want to cross back to the present Amtrak line as far north as possible, since having one train stop at one station and another stop elsewhere would confuse people...that sort of situation hasn't been a "thing" in 40 years. AAF being at one station and Amtrak at another is one thing, but having AAF at one station, some Amtrak trains at the other...and then one odd Amtrak train at the AAF station? Cue confusion.
> 
> To be fair, in some places this would be more of an issue than others. In West Palm Beach, the FEC station appears to be planned for a site roughly 1500 feet from the present Amtrak station, so straightening out a mix-up would involve less of a walk than some airport terminals involve. In Fort Lauderdale, the distance would be more like a mile. Miami and Orlando provide the biggest messes: Miami would be around 5-6 miles, and Orlando...is roughly the same distance in terms of travel time from the Orlando and Kissimmee stations (which is to say, around 20 minutes each, depending on how they ultimately sort out the parking lots at the Orlando Airport Station...bear in mind that the airport is like 4-5 miles across, so the south entrance is closer to Kissimmee while the north entrance is closer to Orlando).
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wondered why Amtrak's station of choice in Miami is the airport and not a downtown location. Do many people really connect from flights to the Silver Services? Ideally trains would serve both locations, but looking at the map I see it's pretty difficult to find a route that serves both, even if you don't mind multiple backup moves and do manage to get full cooperation of the freight railroads.
Click to expand...

Metrorail Orange line runs from Amtrak/MIC Airport to Downtown at Government Center, site of the AAF station. While not changing trains would be good, Metrorail is already in place and would be much faster. MIC is Amtraks station of choice because its still close to Hialeah maintenance and the station at the airport will be much better location with Tri-Rail, Metrorail, bus, rental cars and airport in one station.


----------



## CHamilton

Scott wants 'detailed conversation' on All Aboard Florida project





> Gov. Rick Scott on Monday called on developers of a private railroad project to take more steps in response to questions and concerns of residents living who may be affected by All Aboard Florida, the first passenger train service on Florida's east coast in five decades.
> 
> Scott wrote to the project's president, Mike Reininger, on the same day that the Times/Herald published a story detailing the intense level of resistance, including formal opposition by Martin and Indian River counties and several towns along the route. ...
> 
> His office has received a flurry of critical mail from constituents about the venture. Scott's press office put this headline on the news release about the letter: "The Voices of Our Communities Must be Heard."


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## Ryan

> "The Voices of Our Communities Must be Heard."


Only the voices he agrees with, natch.


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## Bob Dylan

Yeah, it would be interesting to see how many of these wealthy NIMBYS contributed to his Campaigns!


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## neroden

They'd better get this built quickly if they want to make any money from it. Everything south of Orlando is at *very severe risk* from sea level rise.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us/florida-finds-itself-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-on-climate-change.html?_r=0

How high above sea level is the FEC line from Orlando to Miami? With the rise in sea level and storm surge levels, one good hurricane may do to this line what it did to the extension to Key West. Seawalls don't work in Florida due to the water-permeable geology which extends down forever.

The railroad could always elevate, I guess, but it's going to be harder for the residents. Very few buildings, even in Miami, are designed to keep working with a big water level rise in a storm.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Stations shouldn't be an issue...in a pinch, FEC could put limited stations in place and expand them 5-10 years down the line (as capital permits and demand dictates), and I think they still own some modest-sized plots in several cities that could be expanded. You could probably get sufficient stations in all of the cities for a relatively low cost ($10-20m).


I'm not so sure.

Isn't the capitaliting on real estate in and around the stations a central part of the AAF business plan. So if they wait with developing station sites, they basically face the full running costs without having the full income.


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## cirdan

neroden said:


> They'd better get this built quickly if they want to make any money from it. Everything south of Orlando is at *very severe risk* from sea level rise.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us/florida-finds-itself-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-on-climate-change.html?_r=0
> 
> How high above sea level is the FEC line from Orlando to Miami? With the rise in sea level and storm surge levels, one good hurricane may do to this line what it did to the extension to Key West. Seawalls don't work in Florida due to the water-permeable geology which extends down forever.
> 
> The railroad could always elevate, I guess, but it's going to be harder for the residents. Very few buildings, even in Miami, are designed to keep working with a big water level rise in a storm.


There are quite a few examples of railroads running through areas that are treacherous from a hydrological point of view. It's all a question of providing adequate drainage and making structures sufficiently robust to survive the occasional pounding by high tides. It is a question of costs though and of who will foot the bill. If the sea starts to encroach on land, you always face the question of whether it is worth spending money securing and protecting that land or whether it is better to pick battles you can win and evacuate the land that's not worth saving and let the sea take it. FEC will not face the question alone but the whole city of Miami will have to think about this one at some point. The question boils down to how much property and business owners as well as the government etc are prepared to work together and contribute to any measures.


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## jphjaxfl

The Florida East Coast RR follows US 1 so is 15-20 miles west of the ocean all the way from JAX to Miami. I drive along sections of the FEC and have never noticed any flooding even during flash flood warnings. The A line of the CSX runs closer to the St. John's River at some points between Orange Park and Del and than FEC is to the Atlantic. The St. John's is a very wide river in that area, but the rail bed is built up so flooding is rarely a problem there. There is no comparison between any railroad on Florida's peninsula and the Overseas Railway that Flagler built through the Florida Keys.


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## jis

Right. I would not worry overly about the FEC in this century if the current projections hold. Next century may be a different matter though 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Caesar La Rock

This simulator shows how long an AAF train will take at a grade crossing.



49 seconds is the same length I sit at a traffic light (on a good day). The people that are making a big deal over a 49 second wait time for a train, I hope they feel stupid when they see this video.


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## chrsjrcj

Article in today's Palm Beach Post says a ticket from Miami to West Palm will cost $23.77.


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## Caesar La Rock

chrsjrcj said:


> Article in today's Palm Beach Post says a ticket from Miami to West Palm will cost $23.77.


One way I assume for the trip?


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## jis

Here is the said article which was really about the sale of bonds with an unprecedented 12% payout!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-documents-reveal-ticket-price-newspaper/ngP6L/

Here is a Reuters article on the same matter:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/20/all-aboard-pik-fortress-invest-idUSL6N0P05SL20140620


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## Anderson

*blinks*
I'm actually tempted by those bonds. The main issue IMHO is the political risk to the operation more than anything.


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## afigg

jis said:


> Here is a Reuters article on the same matter:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/20/all-aboard-pik-fortress-invest-idUSL6N0P05SL20140620


What I notice in the Reuters report is "The terms allow Fortress to buy back some or all of the bond at 112 prior to January 1 2017 with the proceeds of a government loan." So they may pay off the bond early with the funding from the RRIF loan. If the terms of the RRIF loan allow that. 12% is a high rate, but there is a high risk factor.

My take on the $405 million bond sale is that AAF got tired of waiting on the US DOT and FRA to approve the RRIF loan. Must have decided they could afford the interest on the bond sale to get the property acquisition and construction started on the MIA to WPB segment. Probably figuring the RRIF applications will get approved, but the US DOT is taking its own long sweet bureaucratic time to do so. There is a US DOT Credit Council that approves loans and the April 2014 meeting agenda has an action item on one of the AAF applications:

" (d) IFA request for a $995.5 million RRIF loan application from All Aboard Florida for the portion of the line from West Palm Beach to Orlando - the Council recommended to the FRA Administrator the hiring of an IFA for application analysis." So get an Independent Financial Analyst (I think that is what IFA stands for) to review the application and get back to the FRA whenever.


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## jis

Yes, it is essentially intended as a bridge loan.


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## Anderson

Well, I talked to my broker today, and he couldn't find anything in his system about these bonds. I'll admit that I'm sincerely interested in the issue...both for the yield (which is in obvious junk territory) and, frankly, to be able to make a clear point about putting my money where my mouth is. I wouldn't touch it if there was a high minimum investment/investment increment, but...well, if the amount was low (relatively speaking) I _would_ be willing to take a gamble on $5k for this...

(I'd just make sure I got a certificate to frame...and I've lost more on boondoggles that would have gotten me less)


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## cirdan

It's good to finally see something moving other than Nimby protests.

I do hope though that they manage to find an amicable arrangement with as many protesters as possible (as far as their objections are reasonable) because resentment is something a new enterprise can do without.


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## jis

I think that there are three types of resentment involved, of which two are easy to deal with and the third, one can do not much. They are:

1. Exclusion resentment - why aren't we getting a station? How does it help our community?

2. Genuine money issues - who is going to pay for the grade crossing upgrades?

3. We hate change of any kind - Unadulterated NIMBY

The first can be handled with some finesse if Florida DoT, FEC and Amtrak start moving along on the MIA - JAX passenger service sooner rather than later. Separate project, but the public does not really know such nuances.

The second can be mitigated some by clever use of CMAQ, TIGER and other possible fund sources (perhaps even some redirected Highway funds) to handle much of it thus unburdening both AAF and the local communities. Still there will be some impact and that is life.

The third - well..... nothing can fix that.


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## cirdan

I wonder to what extent crossing issues can be mitigated if a standard design of overpass were created, maybe even used prefabricated parts. This would avoid having to deal with each crossing as an individual project and cut back on the engineering and arcitectural costs while also creating economies of scale on the actual construction site with the same team going from one site to the next and doing exactly the same work. Such an underpass should have sufficient clearance to permit a future electrification.


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## George Harris

cirdan said:


> I wonder to what extent crossing issues can be mitigated if a standard design of overpass were created, maybe even used prefabricated parts. This would avoid having to deal with each crossing as an individual project and cut back on the engineering and arcitectural costs while also creating economies of scale on the actual construction site with the same team going from one site to the next and doing exactly the same work. Such an underpass should have sufficient clearance to permit a future electrification.


The bridges themselves are pretty well standardized. The approaches less so, nor is it practical to do so. Engineers do think regardless of what a lot of seem to believe.,


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## Anderson

Most of what I have seen seems to be #1 or #3. There's a lot of confused NIMBYism, though I suspect some of that is folks thinking they're going to see a mile-long unit train roll through town each hour. There's also obvious resentment at folks north of Palm Beach who aren't getting any stations in the current plan and have no indication of getting one in a future phase. I suspect a lot of that concern would abate if AAF either (A) clearly added a few stops in future plans for those areas or (B) indicated a willingness to offer some sort of coastal "local" service a few times per day as part of the first phase, even in exchange for some limited subsidy to cover some associated costs (for example, asking for a share of the extra cost of equipment). When I see how many towns get excited for a _single_ Amtrak train per day, or for a _second_ train when that happens on a route getting expanded, it is hard to see some of these towns not being happy for an alternative to I-95...and while a stop-heavy local service might not be profitable, running a few local trains with partial subsidies might make for a comparatively "cheap" buy-off.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Most of what I have seen seems to be #1 or #3. There's a lot of confused NIMBYism, though I suspect some of that is folks thinking they're going to see a mile-long unit train roll through town each hour. There's also obvious resentment at folks north of Palm Beach who aren't getting any stations in the current plan and have no indication of getting one in a future phase. I suspect a lot of that concern would abate if AAF either (A) clearly added a few stops in future plans for those areas or (B) indicated a willingness to offer some sort of coastal "local" service a few times per day as part of the first phase, even in exchange for some limited subsidy to cover some associated costs (for example, asking for a share of the extra cost of equipment). When I see how many towns get excited for a _single_ Amtrak train per day, or for a _second_ train when that happens on a route getting expanded, it is hard to see some of these towns not being happy for an alternative to I-95...and while a stop-heavy local service might not be profitable, running a few local trains with partial subsidies might make for a comparatively "cheap" buy-off.


I think this is the difference between railroad the government runs and one run privately.

The government seeks to please and serve as many people as possible. A private company seeks to maximise profit. All the people who moan and whine and say passenger railroading should be made profitable and transferred to the private sector and no more tax money for passenger rail need to walk the talk as they're getting what they wished for. They can't have it both ways. AAF not building a station in their town is no different to Starbucks not building a franchise in their town. I really don't have much sympathy. If they really want things changed, they should be prepared to bring money to the negotiating table. Maybe they will end up understanding why passenger rail gets subsidized in the first place.


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## Anderson

Well, and that's why I raised the specter of at least picking up part of the tab on the equipment. If a new train costs $25m, then adding even a relatively low-frequency additional local service could easily cost $50-100m (2-4 sets) even if the stations were free. At the same time, that equipment is likely to get bought sooner or later for any service expansions (either in frequency or in area).

The Starbucks analogy isn't great...there's at least some point to be made about disruptive traffic. The best example I can actually think of is a theme park...granted, part of the reason is to get people into the park to spend money, but there's a reason parks can end up offering discounted in-state passes (versus the cost of a similar pass for an out-of-state resident...when I got a year-long pass to Disney World, it cost me about $120 more than it would have if I was a Florida resident) and the like. IIRC, Busch Gardens did something similar in Williamsburg for a while (it _might_ have only been a Kingsmill thing, but I want to say they had a similar offer for local residents as well)...likely due in no small part to the traffic problems they created every day during the season until they got their own exit from the interstate.

One thing that FEC could probably do, also, is point out that a passenger operation on their lines would be _far_ less disruptive than increasing freight ops by a large amount.


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## Paulus

The one thing that really annoys me about the opposition to All Aboard Florida: 90% of those complaining wouldn't have noticed a single thing if the FEC had simply added an extra freight train every hour in each direction. It gives the impression that one should introduce passenger service as a fait accompli.


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## Anderson

Paulus said:


> The one thing that really annoys me about the opposition to All Aboard Florida: 90% of those complaining wouldn't have noticed a single thing if the FEC had simply added an extra freight train every hour in each direction. It gives the impression that one should introduce passenger service as a fait accompli.


Which they might well have done, if a federal loan had not been part of the picture. Had FEC been in a position to simply drop a bunch of passenger frequencies onto existing track without much needed in the way of upgrades, I could see a situation where they find a way to announce the service _after_ all the land acquisition is complete, development has been approved or can't really be blocked, and the cars are on order.


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## jis

Paulus said:


> The one thing that really annoys me about the opposition to All Aboard Florida: 90% of those complaining wouldn't have noticed a single thing if the FEC had simply added an extra freight train every hour in each direction. It gives the impression that one should introduce passenger service as a fait accompli.


The first problem is that FEC could not possibly run the proposed schedule on the current track. If they could they would not be constructing new tracks. Afterall they are not in the business of charity for track building contractors.
They would have noticed when grade crossings started getting modified in conjunction with double tracking. Typically people are not as stupid and uninformed as one might think, just because they happen to disagree with what I like.


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## Green Maned Lion

Jishnu, intelligent people aren't uninformed usually. The great unwashed aren't generally uninformed so much as wildly misinformed.


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## Paulus

All Aboard Florida has filed documents to confirm right of extension to Jacksonville on FEC

http://m.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/documents-filed-clerk-indicate-high-speed-rail-pla/ngTJQ/


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## Anderson

(1) Jis, FEC could have presented a freight expansion plan of some sort (possibly with "sloppy" projections) alongside a bare-bones passenger operation on track with improved condition. Something limited (like the state's Amtrak plan a few years back) wouldn't have raised too many eyebrows outside the railfan community. Then once that was more or less in place, a surprise announcement adding a bunch of passenger service to "fill unused capacity" would likely have left the communities along the line upside down. The expansion would have been mostly down to freight, and track condition improvements provide interesting options in terms of depreciation and deferring maintenance later (such as I believe BNSF has done with keeping track in Class 5 condition in some places).

(2) So...odds that a passenger train pulls into Jacksonville on the FEC before it pulls into Orlando on the FEC?


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## MikefromCrete

Orlando will definitely be first. That's the market. If you mean an Amtrak train will run on the FEC before AAF, I wouldn't bet on it. Amtrak seems incapable of making any positive changes lately. Amtrak will also probably ask for some kind of state assistance and the current governor would certainly oppose it.


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## jis

No, I would think that an FEC service between Miami and Jax will get going even if Amtrak cannot get its act together. I am hearing that it will be an FEC operation, not Amtrak. Amtrak might join the party at a suitable time of its choice hopefully. It looks like Amtrak's relevance in intra-Florida service may be a declining concept, ending up sort of like say along the lines of the way things are on Long Island or Metro North territory, or even intra-New Jersey for that matter.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Anderson

Orlando is the market, agreed. I'm just wondering about timeframes...Orlando has already become the object of much schedule slip (to the point that Fortress went and issued all those bonds last week to at least get started while the Feds look over their applications), and FEC has been talking about running trains only as far as Cocoa as a first phase. Running as far as Cocoa makes very little sense from what I can tell; depending on what they need to do north of Cocoa in terms of track improvements and station construction, my thinking is that it would make decent sense at that point to just start work on that line (which laying the pipe for land transfers hints at) while still aggressively pursuing Orlando.

Edit: To explain, the Orlando line has to be built from scratch and a terminal built at the airport, on what I believe is OIA property. The Jacksonville line will need track improvements and stations to be built, but if I'm not mistaken all of that can take place on FEC-owned property, and FEC _should_ have some servicing facilities in Jacksonville that can be used.

The other way to look at it is that once AAF/FEC get their new trains purchased, once those are delivered they go on a depreciation schedule whether they run or not. If AAF can't run trains into Orlando, better to be able to run them into Jacksonville and get _something_ out of them than to bet on being able to pass off a connecting bus at Cocoa as acceptable.


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## Anderson

Another consideration is that if you fall back to the schedules from 1956, you can easily produce an average speed of 50 MPH on the train. That's not perfectly drive time competitive, true, but it's not horridly slow like you get in a lot of places and it isn't like I-95 in South Florida is a bastion of the open road. However, once the improvements south of Cocoa are done, I'd be surprised if you couldn't beat those schedules by a significant amount. Again falling back on the 1956 timetable and using Cocoa-Rockledge station as a convenient stand-in for the Cocoa stop for AAF (not in the least because the station is likely already in use), we find ourselves at mile marker 174 south of Jacksonville. For handy reference, Miami's station is at mile marker 366 and I presume that is a fair guess as to the location of the new station as well; that gives 192 miles south of Cocoa. West Palm Beach is at mile marker 299 (67 miles north of Miami) and Fort Lauderdale is at mile marker 341 (25 miles north of Miami). Also as a handy reference, Orlando International Airport to Cocoa comes out to 38.2 miles; OIA to that station might be another few miles, depending on where the split would come in and where that station was.

AAF wants to run trains Miami-Orlando in three hours or thereabouts. Even assuming that the AAF trains could manage an average speed of 110 MPH for those 38 miles, you'd still need to take about 20-25 minutes off the travel time there to "back up" to Cocoa...which gives about 2:30-2:40 Miami-Cocoa. Looking back to the 1956 timetable, the Havana Special did Jacksonville-Cocoa in 3:16, the City of Miami in 2:56, the East Coast Champion in 2:47, and the Miamian in 2:53. I'm going to call the time 2:50 (the Havana Special was an FEC-only train that was timed not unlike the Twilight Shoreliner in terms of aiming to keep its endpoints at a decent hour), but also note that this includes stops at Ormond, Daytona, _and_ New Smyrna (with a ten-minute hold at the latter in most cases) that would likely be able to be dropped to make up for track conditions.

On the assumption that FEC could improve its northern tracks to match those times north of Cocoa, a through train should be able to do the run in about 5:30. That is _very_ competitive with the interstates (especially amid traffic roulette all along I-95) and probably makes more sense than a train terminating at Cocoa.


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## Brian_tampa

The project schedule slip IMO has been due to the lengthened time required for the EIS process to be completed. From what I have seen, AAF always planned to build the WPB to Miami section first. That is why AAF requested the EA and the resulting FONSI decision of record for this section first. Even the FRA considers it to be a segment of independent utility. Fortress had a decision to make back in early 2012: go for a RRIF loan or self fund it with investors and other private funds. Even if they don't get the RRIF loan, they will still have to follow the FEIS recommendations in regards to the mitigation requirements.

Another reason for schedule slip is that the negotiations with GOAA took much longer than what the original schedule expected. Also, AAF has no role in building the airport station at Orlando, meaning they are left exposed to whatever delays happen to that government project. The Orlando station won't be finished until 2017 at the earliest is what I have seen documented.

I believe the bond sale would have happened regardless of schedule slip.

As far as expansion of service beyond the initial Miami to Orlando route, AAF has told me that no further expansion will be considerd until they are sure that the initial route is successful. That won't be known until 2019 at the earliest. I don't expect anything to happen north of the "Cocoa curve" as AAF calls it, until the early 2020's. Also, the lease agreement AAF signed with OOCEA explicitly prohibits any passengers carried between Orlando and locations in Brevard County. I would not expect a station in Cocoa for a long time if ever. Unless they renegotiate the lease and pay more money for lost toll revenue.

Even if AAF wanted to run trains north of WPB after they take possession of the train sets they could not. The USCG would never allow that disruption to the draw bridges at Jupiter Inlet and Stuart. AAF would have to get a revised permit to operate more trains. At this point AAF would have to wait for the final EIS and also make the required changes in order to meet the USCG permit to run any trains.

FECR on the other hand can increase freight service as they are an existing operator on the route and not required to make changes. FECR used to run almost twice the number of trains as recently as 15 years ago through Stuart.


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## Anderson

A Cocoa station is likely if AAF ends up running JAX-MIA trains. Even if Cocoa-Orlando passengers aren't permitted and the Cocoa station isn't a stop on those trains (or it's an R/D stop with tickets only sold for those going south...think LD trains on the NEC), the station still makes sense.

Also, I don't expect train delivery to be finished before an EIS would be complete. Even if they placed an order Monday morning, it would probably take a year or more to get new equipment (which they've said they want to use), and the EIS is already under way for the line to Orlando. It's a good question as to how much time an EIS for the northern segment would take.

I'm going to defer to your connections with AAF for knowledge (much as I do with Charlie in the Northwest, for example), but I would ask in all sincerity when you were told that. I only ask because something said in 2012 wouldn't necessarily still hold, for example.


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## jphjaxfl

Anything beyond the initial Miami to Orlando route is, as Brian, said many years into the future. All Aboard Florida is focusing on the tourist destinations in South Florida and Orlando. Many Europeans and other foreign tourists travel to South Florida and then to Orlando before they return home. I have had friends from abroad who seriously want to travel by train from South Florida to Orlando and can't believe the Silver Meteor is the only real train and when they experience it, they are even more puzzled.


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## jis

Yup. Whenever it happens (if it does) it is likely that FEC will run an intra-Florida MIA - JAX service before Amtrak manages to get into the act. Unless of course something completely unexpected and good comes to pass.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> FECR on the other hand can increase freight service as they are an existing operator on the route and not required to make changes. FECR used to run almost twice the number of trains as recently as 15 years ago through Stuart.


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why did they lose so many trains?

I thought most railroads are now running more trains than they were 15 years ago, at least on their main lines, which is why Amtrak is facing a bit of a squeeze in terms of route capacity.


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## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> FECR on the other hand can increase freight service as they are an existing operator on the route and not required to make changes. FECR used to run almost twice the number of trains as recently as 15 years ago through Stuart.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why did they lose so many trains?
> 
> I thought most railroads are now running more trains than they were 15 years ago, at least on their main lines, which is why Amtrak is facing a bit of a squeeze in terms of route capacity.
Click to expand...

They had a major dropoff with the recession, IIRC, and for some unknown reason they didn't get the same rebound most others did.


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## Brian_tampa

Brian_Tampa

From what I know, FECR made a decision to run longer and less frequent trains. They did indeed have a major reduction in rock trains as well. Their traffic now is primarily containers and intermodal. You should see their trains and how long they are now!

Not sure if the change was due to change of ownership or also because of the recession that happened around the same time.


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## jis

Here is an illustration of how at least one Chamber of Commerce (happens to be in the town next to the one I am moving to) is trying to be proactive regarding the AAF project with the hope of getting service on the MIA - JAX project when it happens, and getting heat for it from some:

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/readers/letters/2014/07/07/letter-will-aboard-florida-open-door-amtrak/12213469/

Interesting that someone from Vero which is not even in Brevard County, is getting upset about what Melbourne is saying. Upset because it is not joining the Jupiter NIMBY bandwagon I suppose. The Mayor of Jupiter did a big dog and pony show with the Realtors of Brevard on Merritt Island several weeks back, and was apparently not received as warmly as he had hoped. My real estate agent asked me about this whole thing and I was happy to educate her and her colleagues the best I could. Niether the TPO nor the Melbourne Chamber of Commerce was ready to keel over.

And no, the Brevard TPO did not say that Amtrak operates without subsidies. It said that it would not need any ongoing operating subsidy from Brevard, beyond one time costs of setting up station etc. The operating cost of the station is going to be handled by some other means apparently, perhaps through associated real estate development for businesses, in the areas adjacent to the station.

Just goes to show that someone with their minds made up will re-interpret almost anything that is said in ways that are not necessarily connected even remotely with reality to make a point.

Here is a related story about Phase 1 progress:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fl-all-aboard-fort-lauderdale-station-20140708,0,3360730.story


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## Ryan

jis said:


> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/readers/letters/2014/07/07/letter-will-aboard-florida-open-door-amtrak/12213469/
> 
> Interesting that someone from Vero which is not even in Brevard County, is getting upset about what Melbourne is saying. Upset because it is not joining the Jupiter NIMBY bandwagon I suppose.


I'm now 50% more dumber for having read that.


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## Caesar La Rock

RyanS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/readers/letters/2014/07/07/letter-will-aboard-florida-open-door-amtrak/12213469/
> 
> Interesting that someone from Vero which is not even in Brevard County, is getting upset about what Melbourne is saying. Upset because it is not joining the Jupiter NIMBY bandwagon I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm now 50% more dumber for having read that.
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it and not read it. Last thing I need is something lowering my IQ.


----------



## Anderson

As much as I hate to say it, there is something slightly refreshing about an infrastructure project that isn't overly concerned with public input. Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of not cutting folks out...but after seeing so many projects emphasizing how much they want to include public input, it is rather nice to see a project that (to the extent it can afford to do so and which ought to have negligible negative side-effects) doesn't really give a hoot.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Here is some more news on the project.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-train-airport-delay-20140708,0,5800627.story


----------



## cirdan

It's interesting to read that installation of the second track will commence later this summer.

I wonder when construction of the new Miami station will commence. Has that been approved yet?


----------



## cirdan

Here is an interesting cross section of Miami station. It would appear there will be five dead-ending platform tracks.

I don't know if there will be additional stabling tracks nearby (I guess it might be difficult to add them as there isn't much space) so these tracks would have to handle incoming as well as outgoing trains as well as hold trains in between and trains that are being cleaned, held spare etc.

That might be ample for an inter city style service as AAF wants to be. But if ever Tr-Rail becomes serious about sharing the facility, it might get tight.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The two tracks on the left will handle Tri-Rail trains, while the two tracks on the right will handle AAF trains (high level platforms). The press release for the Miami station only mentioned 4 tracks (two for each service), but based on that cross section, it looks like a middle track would be able to handle either Tri-Rail trains or AAF trains.

Also, AAF unveiled their Fort Lauderdale station yesterday. It includes three tracks. Two for AAF, and one for freight trains.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.699720823408982.1073741828.307799652601103&type=1


----------



## chrsjrcj

A new anti-AAF group has popped up. This time called CARE (Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida).

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/new-coalition-forms-llc-fight-all-aboard-florida/ngbbd/


----------



## Anderson

This just screams "grassroots effort":
"Other members of the coalition include Frenchman’s Creek Beach & Country Club in Palm Beach Gardens, the Club at Admiral’s Cove, and Jonathan’s Landing, both in Jupiter."


----------



## Bob Dylan

Anderson said:


> This just screams "grassroots effort":
> 
> "Other members of the coalition include Frenchmans Creek Beach & Country Club in Palm Beach Gardens, the Club at Admirals Cove, and Jonathans Landing, both in Jupiter."


Yeah, a True Grass Roots People's Movement! Nothing about holding meetings @ Wal-Mart or a School! LOL


----------



## George Harris

jimhudson said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> This just screams "grassroots effort":
> 
> "Other members of the coalition include Frenchmans Creek Beach & Country Club in Palm Beach Gardens, the Club at Admirals Cove, and Jonathans Landing, both in Jupiter."
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, a True Grass Roots People's Movement! Nothing about holding meetings @ Wal-Mart or a School! LOL
Click to expand...

"Let them eat cake" is the phrase that comes to mind.


----------



## Paulus

Looks like only a bit over 200 parking spots which is a rather encouraging sign. I'm not thrilled with the aesthetic design, but that's my perennial complaint about most buildings these days. I am disappointed that it doesn't appear to have a direct connection between the bus terminal on the other side of the tracks and the station and platform itself.


----------



## edjbox

Will any new passenger trains make any stops between west palm beach and cocoa beach along the FEC?


----------



## afigg

chrsjrcj said:


> A new anti-AAF group has popped up. This time called CARE (Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida).


<sigh> I want to roll my eyes and slam my head on the table at the same time. Good grief, this is service over an existing active railroad line, not a new 8 lane wide highway. Someone in Florida needs to form an anti-CARE group. How about Citizens Against Nimby Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida. CAN CARE.


----------



## Anderson

Ok, is there a way we (or, rather, any colleagues we have in Florida) could work up some "Put up or shut up" editorials and the like?


----------



## edjbox

I could see people being upset with the CAHSR project, since it will use a new right of way, but this one basically uses existing right of way up to a point. Don't understand it


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I propose that the solution to NIMBYs is to immediately execute eminent domain on the land they live on from the rear property line to the rear of their house.

This should satisfy them since nothing will be built in their backyard, since they wouldn't have one.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Just found out that the first rail sections have been delivered to AAF/FECR for the Miami to WPB section and that they will announce the first construction contract very soon. Things are looking up for AAF and finally getting going on construction!

Anyone by chance happen to see any train activity involved in the movement of CWR sections on the FECR lately?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Brian_tampa said:


> Just found out that the first rail sections have been delivered to AAF/FECR for the Miami to WPB section and that they will announce the first construction contract very soon. Things are looking up for AAF and finally getting going on construction!
> 
> Anyone by chance happen to see any train activity involved in the movement of CWR sections on the FECR lately?


Yeah I've seen a number of articles that pretty much indicates AAF is getting a move on with construction. I'll post this, even though it has nothing to do with AAF directly, it shows the airport is going to be expanded.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/07/rep-john-mica-everything-can-start-now-on-orlando.html


----------



## Brian_tampa

@THE CJ, actually the FAA approval for the Orlando airport expansion is a big deal for AAF - without that approval, AAF would have been dead in the water for the Orlando expansion. That decision last Friday by the FAA is probably the most important thing to have happened in the past several months. That and the non-compete agreement signed back in April or early May between SFRTA and AAF for TriRail operating between Jupiter and Miami on FECR. They still need to work out the lease payment terms for running trains on the route however. Without the non-compete agreement with SFRTA, the FEIS record of decision and RRIF loan approvals would have been hard to obtain as the US DOT would not be willing to give AAF a $1.5 billion loan to compete with another DOT/FTA subsidized operation!

With the FAA approval and SFRTA being worked out, the last remaining hurdle is the EIS report and whatever it will demand of AAF to mitigate any issues. AAF has said they don't need the RRIF loan (it is one of several financing options they say they are looking at) - as proof of this, look at them beginning construction now instead of waiting another year or so for the RRIF loan decision.

The information about the rail already being delivered and the first construction contract came directly from AAF/FECI - not another news source or article.


----------



## Anderson

Well, and let's be honest: If they get the RRIF loan, they can pay off the bonds. If they don't get the RRIF loan, they can probably refinance the bonds with better rates as things move further along and the chance of the project evaporating vanishes.

As to the SFRTA situation, a serious question comes up: If there's no non-compete deal, could FEC (at least in theory) just set up a more limited commuter-ish service, price it where the market will bear, and tell Tri-Rail to stuff off? I know FEC probably wants the contract (it makes the downtown station more valuable) and they're mainly fighting over terms to give FEC more flexibility in operations with possible infill service, but as far as I can tell all that a lack of a non-compete would do is cause Tri-Rail a lot of misery.


----------



## chrsjrcj

According to Seth Bramson (FEC historian, and author of Speedway to Sunshine), there will be an* invitation only* event in West Palm Beach on Monday at 10 am. It will be held were the West Palm Beach station is going to be, so I guess this is the unveiling. I work next to the proposed station, so the temptation will be strong to sneak a peak, but I doubt I'll be allowed to venture out of work anyway. ^_^


----------



## chrsjrcj

AAF announced their plans for the West Palm Beach Station yesterday: http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/aboard-florida-takes-wraps-29m-west-palm-beach-station/

I saw work crews this morning near the station site when I went into work. Apparently there were also surveyors further south, in the Lantana area.

I heard ground breaking on the Miami station will be in September.


----------



## Paulus

I really hate their design aesthetics.


----------



## Anderson

I can't say I'm a fan, either, but then again there aren't too many "modern" designs I'm a fan of.


----------



## Paulus

Anderson said:


> I can't say I'm a fan, either, but then again there aren't too many "modern" designs I'm a fan of.


If it's not Baroque, don't build it.


----------



## CHamilton

How broadly applicable is the All Aboard Florida development strategy?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Construction is going to start in the Fall.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/MiamiDade-officials-approve-All-Aboard-Floridas-Miami-station-plan--41166?email=peterlewis2%40gmail.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews07%2F25%2F2014


----------



## me_little_me

I finally met one of those whining MIMBYs from Florida while on vacation in Nova Scotia. What a bunch of whiners! 32 more trains a day he said! Aww! And no mention that the tracks were there before he was!. (I brought that up).

I hope they put a freeway across the street from his house.


----------



## cirdan

THE CJ said:


> Construction is going to start in the Fall.
> 
> http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/MiamiDade-officials-approve-All-Aboard-Floridas-Miami-station-plan--41166?email=peterlewis2%40gmail.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews07%2F25%2F2014





> The passenger-rail system will be elevated 50 feet to align with existing public transportation systems and with retail spaces located beneath the track. The design will allow through-streets to remain open to traffic and create an atmosphere of walkability, All Aboard Florida officials said.


I wonder if this will mean that the approach line north of the station will also have to be raised, and if so, what effect that will have on the branch going out to the docks?


----------



## Brian_Tampa

Looks like this is the first visible evidence that AAF is moving beyond the conceptual/design phase:

http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/all-aboard-florida-closes-parking-lots-to-prepare-for-construction/

Can't wait to see buildings going up and track being put in place!


----------



## cirdan

Brian_Tampa said:


> Looks like this is the first visible evidence that AAF is moving beyond the conceptual/design phase:
> 
> http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/all-aboard-florida-closes-parking-lots-to-prepare-for-construction/
> 
> Can't wait to see buildings going up and track being put in place!


I've often wondered about the economics of using high-value land in a prime location for low density parking, with per day charges often being in the single digits, and indeed in said location why this continued so long. The ROI of managed parking spaces must be pretty dismal. Of course now it is fortituous that the land is still avilable but for many years nobody would have imagined that rail would ever return to this site and its thus little short of a miracle that it wasn't developed long ago. Or was there maybe a plan on the back burner for a long time but they just decided the time wasn't ripe?

And while on the topic of parking. Will there be an underground car park under the station? Or is AAf assuming people will use public transit and existing facilities?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I got an email from AAF last week asking me to tell elected officials that the NIMBYs should not prevail....

Follow the link where it says "Click here to show your support for All Aboard Florida." It takes less than a minute!



> *All Aboard Florida is moving full steam ahead. Construction on the Miami to West Palm Beach rail infrastructure and stations will start soon, and we continue educating stakeholders and spreading the facts about Florida’s most important transportation project.*
> 
> As the project progresses, it is important for governmental entities and elected officials to hear your supportive voice. We recently added a “Show Your Support” tool to our website that allows supporters to submit letters to their relevant elected officials, the Federal Railroad Administration and the Florida Department of Transportation. It takes less than 60 seconds to complete (just like a grade crossing cycle for a passenger train!), and we would appreciate your continued support by filling it out today.
> 
> We are also encouraging you to send this link to all of your contacts – family, friends and colleagues across the country (not just limited to our fellow Floridians). Passenger rail is coming back, and we’re excited that you’re part of it with us.
> 
> Click here to show your support for All Aboard Florida.
> 
> *We thank you for your continued support.*
> 
> _Please visit our website for more information and share this email with interested parties so they can receive updates from All Aboard Florida. Make sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter. _


----------



## Anderson

> It takes less than 60 seconds to complete (just like a grade crossing cycle for a passenger train!),


*snickers*


----------



## Kevin

Site work has begun

http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/photo-site-work-for-150m-all-aboard-florida-downtown-rail-terminal/


----------



## jis

Article on passenger amenities that will be available on AAF trains:

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/08/5-cool-amenities-planned-for-all-aboard-florida.html?page=all



> Dynamic WiFi: All Aboard Florida has invested into a beefed-up, high-bandwidth signal that it owns along the route, so passengers will have no problems doing work, playing games or listening to music during their ride.
> Cafe car/bar car: During the three-hour ride, of course you might get hungry or thirsty, so you’ll have the option of visiting the dining car for a snack or the bar car for a drink with friends. All Aboard Florida also is looking into apps that would allow you to order your beverage or snack to be delivered to your seat on the train.
> Seating configuration: Whether traveling with family, friends or alone on a business trip, riders can choose the type of seating configuration best suited for their party when booking tickets online. Each train will fit up to 400 passengers, and seats will be the same or larger than first-class airline seats. And you can check your luggage on the train, too.
> Fully ADA-compliant: Along with wide aisles, the trains also will have level boarding with no steps, which will allow for wheelchairs, scooters and bikes to be able to wheel directly onto the train.
> Pets: Though it hasn’t been finalized yet, All Aboard Florida is exploring the option of being able to bring pets on your trip. After all, no one likes leaving their furry family member behind!


----------



## chrsjrcj

This should "quiet" some concerns from the NIMBYs. Phase 1 of AAF will include a quiet zone for the entire corridor (WPB-Miami).

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl-all-aboard-quiet-zones-20140812,0,5394621.story


----------



## MattW

Wonderful. I hope they pad the schedules by two hours to allow for all the grade crossing collisions :angry2:


----------



## Ryan

Does there exist any data on the relative frequency of grade crossing accidents in/out of quiet zones?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Not to my knowledge. Most idiots are deaf anyway.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Thank you very much for posting this.



chrsjrcj said:


> This should "quiet" some concerns from the NIMBYs. Phase 1 of AAF will include a quiet zone for the entire corridor (WPB-Miami).
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl-all-aboard-quiet-zones-20140812,0,5394621.story


To some, this might be really good news, as it could help with neighbors to the rail tracks getting along better with the new service. Some might think rail doesn't have to be so noisy (the article mentions "110 decibels", as loud as a "jet flying over") by nature.



> With construction set to begin soon, officials hope the quiet zone, which still must get federal approval, could be in place before All Aboard Florida's trains start running.


Some might think that indeed, that would be great, if the quiet zones were finished in time for when the new service begins. For me there is one thing that still seems unclear, the article mentions to "establish a continuous quiet zone on the Florida East Coast Railway from Hallandale Beach to downtown West Palm Beach" - so what about south from Hallandale Beach to the new Miami downtown terminal? Will Florida East Coast Industries build a fully grade-separated route from Hallandale Beach to the new Miami station (as the tracks are supposed to be elevated in the new station that could not be impossible)? Seems hard to imagine 110-decibel horn blasts will continue in that part of the route.


----------



## jis

South of Hallandale Beach the track is supposed to be grade separated all the way to Miami station.

Achieving Quiet Zone over the entire length will pull the rug out partially from under the NIMBY arguments. OTOH, NIMBYs being the way they are, now they will argue that safety will be compromised, for which of course there is no real evidence.



RyanS said:


> Does there exist any data on the relative frequency of grade crossing accidents in/out of quiet zones?


If there was any FRA being the way it is, would crack down on all Quiet Zones immediately and proceed to make them non-quiet as fast as they can.


----------



## beautifulplanet

jis said:


> South of Hallandale Beach the track is supposed to be grade separated all the way to Miami station.


Thank you so much for the info!  To many, all of the track south of West Palm Beach being "quiet", that might sound good indeed. 

And maybe there is a future possibility for the track north of West Palm Beach to Cocoa as well, for example for the residents of Jupiter, Stuart etc.


----------



## jis

Hey, I get to campaign for that at my new abode in Melbourne FL, which is on the way to Cocoa from West Palm.  Although as far as I can tell there is no 110mph running through most of Melbourne according to current plans. Too many pesky curves through downtown, roughly between a mile south of 192 (New Haven Ave.) and a mile and a half north of 518 (Eu Gallie Blvd). In the downtown area it looks like there is a dozen or so railroad crossings within less than a mile!


----------



## rrdude

So JIS, you'll be one of the few "IMBY" along the route!


----------



## jis

rrdude said:


> So JIS, you'll be one of the few "IMBY" along the route!


Within less than 4 miles from the track


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Hey, I get to campaign for that at my new abode in Melbourne FL, which is on the way to Cocoa from West Palm.  Although as far as I can tell there is no 110mph running through most of Melbourne according to current plans. Too many pesky curves through downtown, roughly between a mile south of 192 (New Haven Ave.) and a mile and a half north of 518 (Eu Gallie Blvd). In the downtown area it looks like there is a dozen or so railroad crossings within less than a mile!


Cool.

Isn't that the place where FIT is?

I was trying to encourage my stepson to go and study there, but he decided otherwise.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I get to campaign for that at my new abode in Melbourne FL, which is on the way to Cocoa from West Palm.  Although as far as I can tell there is no 110mph running through most of Melbourne according to current plans. Too many pesky curves through downtown, roughly between a mile south of 192 (New Haven Ave.) and a mile and a half north of 518 (Eu Gallie Blvd). In the downtown area it looks like there is a dozen or so railroad crossings within less than a mile!
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> Isn't that the place where FIT is?
> 
> I was trying to encourage my stepson to go and study there, but he decided otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yes. FIT is within a couple of miles of my place.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I get to campaign for that at my new abode in Melbourne FL, which is on the way to Cocoa from West Palm.  Although as far as I can tell there is no 110mph running through most of Melbourne according to current plans. Too many pesky curves through downtown, roughly between a mile south of 192 (New Haven Ave.) and a mile and a half north of 518 (Eu Gallie Blvd). In the downtown area it looks like there is a dozen or so railroad crossings within less than a mile!
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> Isn't that the place where FIT is?
> 
> I was trying to encourage my stepson to go and study there, but he decided otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. FIT is within a couple of miles of my place.
Click to expand...

So is Melbourne getting a station? Being a college town it would make sense.


----------



## Ispolkom

RyanS said:


> Does there exist any data on the relative frequency of grade crossing accidents in/out of quiet zones?


I haven't found anything to do with modern quiet zones with upgraded crossings. The 1980s night-time horn ban on the FEC tripled the accident rate at controlled crossings.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> So is Melbourne getting a station? Being a college town it would make sense.


At least not in the immediate future for the Miami - Orlando service. But we'll start working on it and see what comes of it eventually. There will be a station for the Miami - JAX service when it comes to pass.


----------



## Tokkyu40

The initial stations will be at Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando.
This gives a total of twelve total city pairs, counting both directions, which are expected to generate 3,000,000 passengers a year.
Once service is established and a customer base is developed, I think they should also have stations at Fort Pierce and Melbourne, which are good size cities. This would increase the number of city pairs to 30, which would substantially increase their customer base.
And if they extend the route north to Daytona Beach, St. Augustine and Jacksonville, that would be a total of 56 city pairs.
There's a sizable potential market along that route.


----------



## jis

First the Beach Line Toll Authority will have to be beaten into submission to change the silly agreement they forced on AAF disallowing any stations between West Palm Beach and Orlando without consulting them. Some from Brevard County are already working on it.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Miami Today article with some more downtown Miami station details:

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/08/19/aboard-florida-unveils-station-details/


----------



## cirdan

Scott Orlando said:


> Miami Today article with some more downtown Miami station details:
> 
> http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/08/19/aboard-florida-unveils-station-details/





> All Aboard Florida is seeking administrative approval only for the station part of its downtown terminal. The project is to also include four buildings, including a 70-story mixed use tower. Review of the buildings is to come later. Overall, the entire project will cover about 9 acres and run from Northwest Eighth Street south to First Street. The station, however, stops at about Northwest Third Street.


Checking that out on Google Maps, it seems that of the seven blocks that the original station covered, only five will be available for trains, with the bottom two being used for other purposes.

I hope AAF isn't shooting itself in the foot with regard to preventing future expansion should they wish to run longer trains.


----------



## Paulus

It's good to see that they'll be going with only the minimum required parking (337 spaces) and a good hefty bit of TOD.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> First the Beach Line Toll Authority will have to be beaten into submission to change the silly agreement they forced on AAF disallowing any stations between West Palm Beach and Orlando without consulting them. Some from Brevard County are already working on it.


Being an entrenched bureaucracy it will take a good beating to get them to do the right thing. I'm sure there are those in Indian River and St. Lucie (as well as possibly Martin?) Counties who would like to see the beast tamed as well. One of the sad aspects of this is that having stations in St. Pierce, Vero Beach, Cocoa and Melbourne would likely help to counter some of the NIMBY noise.

jis - Do you know if there is any sort of multi-county group working on this together? Obviously the more resources to fight The Beach, the better.

Hmmm. If there is not, what is needed is someone who is recently retired, and who is knowledgeable and passionate about rail passenger service to coordinate this effort.... Hmmm, I wonder who would fit those criteria? :unsure:

Hmmm.... I wonder...


----------



## CHamilton

> While rail projects often seem to speed down a clear partisan line — left in favor, right against — this is not the case in Florida.


High-Speed Rail Muddies Florida Governor’s Race


----------



## jis

Don't look at me. I am not retired. Far from it. Actually it looks like I will be spending even more time at work. An exciting new opportunity/project just cranking up.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jis

CHamilton said:


> While rail projects often seem to speed down a clear partisan line — left in favor, right against — this is not the case in Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> High-Speed Rail Muddies Florida Governor’s Race
Click to expand...

Incidentally, left in favor right opposed, is not necessarily true in NJ either. For example, the River Line and MOM have both been opposed vigorously by the Democratic establishment. The River Line was pushed through almost entirely by the Republicans during a Republican regime. Then when Corzine came to power, his DOT spent a lot of time criticizing the project.
The Middlesex County Democrats with some side action help from one who is proclaimed to be a rail advocate, have so far successfully scuppered MOM.

It all depends on whose back yard is being gored. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Now now Jishnu, don't speak ill of the dead.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I think Scott sees this as an alternative to the high speed rail funds he rejected, while Crist is still bitter about what Scott did. Patrick Murphy (D) represents the Stuart/Jupiter area that has been most vocal against this project, which explains why he seems to be opposed. Murphy was actually a shock win against the heavyweight Republican Alan West in a Republican leaning district. With election season in full swing, I think that might be a factor as to why Murphy is opposed (though he might be in for a bit of a cakewalk this year with plenty of cash and very weak Republican opponents).

I imagine a lot of the opposition from politicians will die down after November 4th.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Now now Jishnu, don't speak ill of the dead.


Ill? Who's speaking ill? Just the truth.
Another project that has gotten stuck in limbo partly because of the same champion is the Lackawanna Cutoff beyond Andover. This time some ramshackle freight house is involved apparently instead of a whole friggin' battlefield.


----------



## Anderson

*fumes*

Did Charlie Crist get kicked in the head? There's no money available for Orlampa right now. Moreover, if he's so hot to trot about that connection, I don't see why it wouldn't make more sense to find some way to do a deal to extend the existing plan to Tampa and work out some sort of revenue split like innumerable railroads did for decades.

And...good grief, for the price of the original Tampa-Orlando-Miami project he could throw in full electrification of the FEC gratis, convert the project to Acela IIs (so you could have 160 MPH operation Tampa-Cocoa _and_ cover passenger service to Jacksonville) and have a few billion left over.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Work begins — finally — on Miami-to-Orlando fast train



> Preliminary work has begun for construction of a $2.5 billion express passenger train between Miami and Orlando.
> 
> In preparation for the project, 35,000 linear feet of new steel rails have been laid on the ground alongside existing freight train tracks at two sites in Palm Beach County just west of North Dixie Highway in Boca Raton.
> 
> Parking lots that for years were packed with vehicles next to the Miami-Dade County Hall building and Metrorail tracks in downtown Miami are now empty, closed for coming construction of the train’s Miami station.









Well, hopefully it's actually rails for the project, and not the FEC replacing rails. Though, AAF did post the article on their Facebook page.


----------



## cirdan

Will AAF actually have dedicated tracks? My understanding was they are just upgrading existing tracks for higher speeds.

In the latter case you can't really say the rails are for AAF and not FEC.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Apparently, in order to get construction started before the end of the year the FEC loaned how some of their MOW crews to AAF. I saw some work being done on the SE of the Hypuluxo siding (near Boynton Beach), yesterday afternoon.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The FEC is already Class IV track (60 mph freight, 80 mph passenger).


----------



## jis

Basically for adding AAF service what is now single track in that area will be double tracked, and eventually for Tri-Rail service along FEC between Miami and West Palm, at least in some segments a third track will be added.


----------



## afigg

The Miami Herald article, BTW, also had this about the pending AAF equipment order:



> In a recent interview at his Coral Gables office, Reininger said the company has selected the type of train it will run on the Miami-Orlando track, but wouldn’t reveal specifics.
> 
> “We can hint at it by saying that with certainty it is going to be a state-of-the-art train that will be the most technologically advanced train of its type,” Reininger said. “It will be made in the USA and it will have the newest and highest emission standards built into the technology of the train as well.”


Setting aside the hype of "most technologically advanced train of its type", any guesses on the source of the coach cars? If it is not DMU, the locomotive options would be EMD F125 or the Siemens Charger I expect.


----------



## jis

My guess is it will not be DMU. My money is on Siemens Chargers (two per consist, one at each end facing the right way  ) and possibly Valero derived trailer cars.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

How good is your money this time, JIS?


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> My guess is it will not be DMU. My money is on Siemens Chargers (two per consist, one at each end facing the right way  ) and possibly Valero derived trailer cars.


I guess you mean Velaro?

That is at least what the website has been showing, though of course that could just be a stock photograph used by a web designer without any input from real decison takers.

This opinion is strengthened by the photograph in question being of one of the older generation, not the type presently being manufactured.


----------



## jis

Yes of course. Velaro. I seem to always type it the other way round. Don;t know why.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

Semi related topic which I didnt want to start new thread for,

Is there going to be a new downtown train station for this? Can Amtrak move in to that station?


----------



## jphjaxfl

There are going to be downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Orlando's station will be in a new terminal with parking garage and other amenities at the Airport. Under AAF's agreement, they will not be able to connect with Amtrak. No through tickets can be sold.


----------



## cirdan

jphjaxfl said:


> There are going to be downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Orlando's station will be in a new terminal with parking garage and other amenities at the Airport. Under AAF's agreement, they will not be able to connect with Amtrak. No through tickets can be sold.


Although Tri-rail will serve Miami's AAF station (although AFAIK it's not clear whether this means they will be serving both stations, or will transfer all Miami service to the FEC line). There is also a distinct possibility that Sunrail could connect to Orlando airport. So interchange between AAF and Amtrak will be possible by intermediary of these systems.


----------



## jis

Tri Rail will continue to serve its current route even after they start serving the FEC route.

The point about connecting service is that no through ticketing will be allowed. Of course anyone can connect to whatever they want, however they manage to pull it off.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jphjaxfl

When will Tri-Rail start service on the Florida East Coast line? I haven't noticed any infrastructure changes except for AAF.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

jphjaxfl said:


> There are going to be downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Orlando's station will be in a new terminal with parking garage and other amenities at the Airport. Under AAF's agreement, they will not be able to connect with Amtrak. No through tickets can be sold.


Delta and AA dont sell tickets on each others flights but they still share airports, thats what I mean.


----------



## jis

Shawn Ryu said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are going to be downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Orlando's station will be in a new terminal with parking garage and other amenities at the Airport. Under AAF's agreement, they will not be able to connect with Amtrak. No through tickets can be sold.
> 
> 
> 
> Delta and AA dont sell tickets on each others flights but they still share airports, thats what I mean.
Click to expand...

But it is possible to get through ticketing on the same itinerary involving those two airlines. This is not going to be allowed involving AAF and Amtrak as a result of the agreement that AAF has with the STB.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

You are thinking too much I am just asking if Amtrak can share the train facility, not service.

Any public transit connection there anyway? Bus or even better rapid transit?


----------



## MattW

The Miami AAF station will be adjacent, if not directly connected to, Miami's Metrorail and Metromover system. I believe bus bays are also planned. The Orlando station will have whatever service already serves the airport.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

Then surely Amtrak would be better off here than next to the airport.

Or they could split and have Meteor terminate at airport and Star terminate in downtown


----------



## jis

Shawn Ryu said:


> Then surely Amtrak would be better off here than next to the airport.
> 
> Or they could split and have Meteor terminate at airport and Star terminate in downtown


Amtrak is not going to be using the Miami AAF station. There are absolutely no plans to do so, partly because Amtrak's maintenance facility is at Hialeah which is not exactly easy to get to from the new AAF station. Whether we like it or not Amtrak will be at the Airport station for the foreseeable future, that is if it does manage to get there from its current home.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Siemens it is.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/239439114/All-Aboard-Florida-Selects-Siemens-as-Train-Manufacturer


----------



## Brian_tampa

Siemens has been selected as the train set manufacturer. Press release from Siemens website and Palm Beach post.


----------



## afigg

Link to the Siemens press release.

Further link to Siemens press video and photos from the Sacramento plant which show ACS-64 frames being built (but no Amtrak markings)

Excerpt:



> The initial five trainset purchase to serve the Miami to West Palm Beach segment will consist of two diesel-electric locomotives, one on each end of four passenger coaches. These diesel-electric locomotives will meet the highest emissions standards set by the federal government. All Aboard Florida and Siemens plan to expand the initial trainsets to seven coaches, and purchase an additional five trainsets, concurrent with environmental approvals and additional financing for the segment from West Palm Beach to the Orlando International Airport.
> 
> The stainless steel passenger coaches, the first to be manufactured by Siemens in the United States, will be state-of-the-art, ADA compliant and designed for comfort, featuring special ergonomic seating and Wi-Fi. The trainsets will also be level boarding, which allows for the ease of boarding without steps and provides easier access for bikes, walkers, strollers and wheelchairs. The locomotives will meet the latest federal rail safety regulations, including enhanced carbody structure safety with crash energy management components.


 For environmental green points, try this for the Siemens Sacramento plant along with where the equipment will be serviced



> Siemens Sacramento plant, which has been in operation for almost 30 years, is up to 80 percent powered by two megawatts of solar energy and currently employs more than 800 people. The trains will be maintained and serviced in West Palm Beach and the Orlando International Airport ensuring full-time employment for more than 120 people.


----------



## jis

What did I tell you? Well actually I cheated a bit.... it was more than just an unfounded guess, but I was not at liberty to disclose that back then ...... but whatever.


----------



## afigg

Shawn Ryu said:


> Then surely Amtrak would be better off here than next to the airport.
> 
> Or they could split and have Meteor terminate at airport and Star terminate in downtown


Amtrak will be stopping at the Miami Central Station (MCS) which is part of the Miami Intermodal Center megaproject. MCS will be shared with TriRail, have direct access to Miami Metrorail, the airport car rental facility and lots of parking. So it is not as if Amtrak will be stuck at an isolated airport station.

If AAF is able to follow through on their plans, Miami will have 2 major train stations, which will be directly connected by Metrorail. Will be interesting to see how much the addition of 2 train stations with connections to the Metrorail system serve as a catalyst for restarting or resurrecting the expansion plans for the Miami heavy rail metro system. From what I have seen in the news, the current focus is on building a light rail line from downtown Miami to Miami Beach. But that could be followed by extending the heavy rail system which is also back in the public conversation.


----------



## frequentflyer

So the coaches will be new, something not seen in the states before. Single level too, or did they say?

For some reason, the link to Siemens web page will not post here, but go to their mobility site and one can see Siemens sell non DMU passenger cars


----------



## afigg

frequentflyer said:


> So the coaches will be new, something not seen in the states before. Single level too, or did they say?
> 
> For some reason, the link to Siemens web page will not post here, but go to their mobility site and one can see Siemens sell non DMU passenger cars


Yes, the cars will be single level. On the Siemens AAF announcement page, there are links to:

Intercity Passenger Coach Data Sheet (1 page PDF)

Charger Diesel-Electric Locomotive Data Sheet (2 page PDF)

The coach car will seat 66, first class car 50 seats. The car floor height is 51", car length 85', width 10'6", height 14'. So the passenger cars will match high level platforms in use on the NEC and are presumably compliant with the NEC clearance envelope. Also fully compliant with FRA requirements and Buy America rules. The basic specs match the Next Gen Single Level coach car dimensions, which I think we can all agree is not an accident. Siemens is after bigger game than just the AAF order.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I remember seeing a Siemens job announcement back in January for a "Commercial Project Manager" at their Sacramento facility to work on a "All Aboard Florida" project. That's when I knew that Siemens had been selected. Heck, AAF has been saying for almost the past year they have been working with a manufacturer on the design of the train cars. I think Siemens has had this order for quite a while now. I would not be surprised if the Charger locomotive announcement last December was associated with the AAF order. Its very possible that AAF will be the initial customer for this new class of locomotive, and not the government consortium that will get 32 of the same units.


----------



## jis

frequentflyer said:


> So the coaches will be new, something not seen in the states before. Single level too, or did they say?


Yes. Single level and also high platform I believe.


> For some reason, the link to Siemens web page will not post here, but go to their mobility site and one can see Siemens sell non DMU passenger cars


Of course.
And yes, Siemens and AAF have been working on this for almost a year now, though the actual order was placed recently, as I understand it.


----------



## frequentflyer

Which means Siemens has its eyes on the mythical NEC Amfleet replacement order. AAF hopes Amtrak picks Siemens rail cars too, lower the cost of parts.

Siemens have in short order become the defacto go to OEM for rail passenger equipment and locomotive power. GE is probably wandering how that happened.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Yes. Single level and also high platform I believe.


I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.


----------



## afigg

Brian_tampa said:


> I remember seeing a Siemens job announcement back in January for a "Commercial Project Manager" at their Sacramento facility to work on a "All Aboard Florida" project. That's when I knew that Siemens had been selected. Heck, AAF has been saying for almost the past year they have been working with a manufacturer on the design of the train cars. I think Siemens has had this order for quite a while now. I would not be surprised if the Charger locomotive announcement last December was associated with the AAF order. Its very possible that AAF will be the initial customer for this new class of locomotive, and not the government consortium that will get 32 of the same units.


The 32 to 35 Charger locomotives for the contract with the FRA and the states are scheduled to be delivered by the summer of 2017. That contract also has options for 235 additional locomotives, so it is a far bigger contract than AAF which will be purchasing a total of 20 locomotives for 10 trainsets plus how many spares AAF needs. Given the number of grade crossings on the AAF FEC route, they will need spare locomotives so they can swap them out for major repair or hold for insurance review after a serious grade crossing collision.

Given the tight schedule for the Midwest, CA, and WA order, I expect the first Chargers will enter testing and service for the government order.


----------



## Brian_tampa

afigg said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember seeing a Siemens job announcement back in January for a "Commercial Project Manager" at their Sacramento facility to work on a "All Aboard Florida" project. That's when I knew that Siemens had been selected. Heck, AAF has been saying for almost the past year they have been working with a manufacturer on the design of the train cars. I think Siemens has had this order for quite a while now. I would not be surprised if the Charger locomotive announcement last December was associated with the AAF order. Its very possible that AAF will be the initial customer for this new class of locomotive, and not the government consortium that will get 32 of the same units.
> 
> 
> 
> The 32 to 35 Charger locomotives for the contract with the FRA and the states are scheduled to be delivered by the summer of 2017. That contract also has options for 235 additional locomotives, so it is a far bigger contract than AAF which will be purchasing a total of 20 locomotives for 10 trainsets plus how many spares AAF needs. Given the number of grade crossings on the AAF FEC route, they will need spare locomotives so they can swap them out for major repair or hold for insurance review after a serious grade crossing collision.
> Given the tight schedule for the Midwest, CA, and WA order, I expect the first Chargers will enter testing and service for the government order.
Click to expand...

I enjoy your sarcasm about accidents, but I would say that AAF has stated that they plan on a late 2016 start date. This would imply that their order would be completed first. I don't disagree that the government order is larger (32 vs 20), but I would be willing to surmise that AAF has offered compensation or other deals to make their order go first. I would not be surprised if AAF will go with a build, maintain, operate contract with Siemens. Without the details, everything is speculation at this point


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember seeing a Siemens job announcement back in January for a "Commercial Project Manager" at their Sacramento facility to work on a "All Aboard Florida" project. That's when I knew that Siemens had been selected. Heck, AAF has been saying for almost the past year they have been working with a manufacturer on the design of the train cars. I think Siemens has had this order for quite a while now. I would not be surprised if the Charger locomotive announcement last December was associated with the AAF order. Its very possible that AAF will be the initial customer for this new class of locomotive, and not the government consortium that will get 32 of the same units.
> 
> 
> 
> The 32 to 35 Charger locomotives for the contract with the FRA and the states are scheduled to be delivered by the summer of 2017. That contract also has options for 235 additional locomotives, so it is a far bigger contract than AAF which will be purchasing a total of 20 locomotives for 10 trainsets plus how many spares AAF needs. Given the number of grade crossings on the AAF FEC route, they will need spare locomotives so they can swap them out for major repair or hold for insurance review after a serious grade crossing collision.
> Given the tight schedule for the Midwest, CA, and WA order, I expect the first Chargers will enter testing and service for the government order.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I enjoy your sarcasm about accidents, but I would say that AAF has stated that they plan on a late 2016 start date. This would imply that their order would be completed first. I don't disagree that the government order is larger (32 vs 20), but I would be willing to surmise that AAF has offered compensation or other deals to make their order go first. I would not be surprised if AAF will go with a build, maintain, operate contract with Siemens. Without the details, everything is speculation at this point
Click to expand...

There is no reason one order should receive absolute priority. An interleaving of deliveries would be a possibility, especially if the locomotives are to be identical in all respects other than paint livery.

AAF service may start in late 2016, but we don't know whether they wish to operate a full schedule from day one or may be able to make do with a reduced fleet initially.

Siemens is still purusing the Acela II project, so a flawless deliveryto Amtrak is very much in their interest. AAF is, I guess, very much small fry on the balance sheet.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.


FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
From what i understand the joint planning between AAF and Siemens pre-dates the FRA order for Chargers. So the schedules and resources and timelines for delivering at least part of the AAF order before the FRA order is already accounted for. For just running the Miami - West Palm service AAF does not need the full complement of ten consists. Basically they could start hourly service easily with 4 consists perhaps with one additional spare - so 8 to 10 locos is all that they would need by 2016. The rest is going to be needed most likely after 2017.

Besides it is not like Siemens is capable of producing only one locomotive at a time serially.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Four coach sets? I knew they weren't serious. I'm sad to see the confirmation though.


----------



## Paulus

Green Maned Lion said:


> Four coach sets? I knew they weren't serious. I'm sad to see the confirmation though.


Four cars on the initial runs to West Palm Beach, 7 when they're extended to Orlando with its completion. It's not a sign of lack of seriousness.


----------



## PRR 60

AAF does not have to adhere to a strict "Buy America" requirement. Siemens can build the AAF units with available parts brought in Europe as needed, while the state order will need the more value content manufactured here. The AAF order can be produced while domestic production of content is ramped up for the federally funded order.

A benefit for the state order is that the compliance testing of the design can be done with prototypes for AAF. Once the design is proven, the AAF units can be produced, then the state units should be able to simply roll off the line without any further ado.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
> 
> 
> 
> FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
> From what i understand the joint planning between AAF and Siemens pre-dates the FRA order for Chargers. So the schedules and resources and timelines for delivering at least part of the AAF order before the FRA order is already accounted for. For just running the Miami - West Palm service AAF does not need the full complement of ten consists. Basically they could start hourly service easily with 4 consists perhaps with one additional spare - so 8 to 10 locos is all that they would need by 2016. The rest is going to be needed most likely after 2017.
> 
> Besides it is not like Siemens is capable of producing only one locomotive at a time serially.
Click to expand...


Amtrak can still share the platform, just sayin.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Amtrak will have to buy some new equipment for use in Florida to be able to share platforms with AAF


----------



## chrsjrcj

The equipment that the Silvers use would be able to use the high level platforms, as they do on the NEC. It's Tri-Rail that's gonna be stuck. Not sure what they'll do in WPB and Fort Lauderdale when the Coastal project gets up and running.


----------



## bretton88

afigg said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the coaches will be new, something not seen in the states before. Single level too, or did they say?
> 
> For some reason, the link to Siemens web page will not post here, but go to their mobility site and one can see Siemens sell non DMU passenger cars
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the cars will be single level. On the Siemens AAF announcement page, there are links to:
> 
> Intercity Passenger Coach Data Sheet (1 page PDF)
> 
> Charger Diesel-Electric Locomotive Data Sheet (2 page PDF)
> 
> The coach car will seat 66, first class car 50 seats. The car floor height is 51", car length 85', width 10'6", height 14'. So the passenger cars will match high level platforms in use on the NEC and are presumably compliant with the NEC clearance envelope. Also fully compliant with FRA requirements and Buy America rules. The basic specs match the Next Gen Single Level coach car dimensions, which I think we can all agree is not an accident. Siemens is after bigger game than just the AAF order.
Click to expand...

Siemens is going very aggressively into the north american passenger rail market, which IMO is a good thing. But this sure sounds like a potential Amfleet replacement. Maybe even a commuter rail replacement.


----------



## MattW

I don't know, there was a well-written analysis on another forum that basically boiled down to: "the only single-level market left is Amtrak."

NJT wants to go all multi-level even for their EMUs, LIRR abandoned non-EMU single-levels years ago, Metro North has mentioned multi-levels as their next non-EMU purchase, MARC is going multi-level, MBTA is going multi-level, Shoreline East is unknown, but they seem happy with what they have or will use EMUs and aren't capacity-constrained anyways. All the other commuter rail operators use either Gallery cars (Metra, Caltrain, VRE, etc.) or some full-size BiLevel (Metrolink, Tri-Rail, Caltrain too, etc.). So I don't think there's much market left for single-level commuter cars, and any that exists can probably survive on the second-hand single-levels being retired by the existing systems.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
> 
> 
> 
> FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
Click to expand...

I'm still not convinced this is a good idea though. Having separate platforms may have certain operational advantages, but assuming there will never be a need to use the platform of the other system is to build in a level of incompatibility to a new system - a compatibility that mature systems are very much regretting and working toward ironing out.


----------



## cirdan

MattW said:


> I don't know, there was a well-written analysis on another forum that basically boiled down to: "the only single-level market left is Amtrak."
> 
> NJT wants to go all multi-level even for their EMUs, LIRR abandoned non-EMU single-levels years ago, Metro North has mentioned multi-levels as their next non-EMU purchase, MARC is going multi-level, MBTA is going multi-level, Shoreline East is unknown, but they seem happy with what they have or will use EMUs and aren't capacity-constrained anyways. All the other commuter rail operators use either Gallery cars (Metra, Caltrain, VRE, etc.) or some full-size BiLevel (Metrolink, Tri-Rail, Caltrain too, etc.). So I don't think there's much market left for single-level commuter cars, and any that exists can probably survive on the second-hand single-levels being retired by the existing systems.


what about South Shore?

I also think the whole single level vs double level thing is ultimately a question of fashion. Fashions swing and one thing is popular for a decade or two and then it swings back and the other thing is in demand again.


----------



## MattW

South Shore seems to be going multi-level EMU as well, but I was primarily talking about un-powered cars.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if high platform will turn out to be a good idea if they want to share tracks with Tri Rail.
> 
> 
> 
> FEC and Tri-Rail plan to share tracks, but not platforms. THE HSR station is going to be separate from the commuter station with separate platforms for each.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm still not convinced this is a good idea though. Having separate platforms may have certain operational advantages, but assuming there will never be a need to use the platform of the other system is to build in a level of incompatibility to a new system - a compatibility that mature systems are very much regretting and working toward ironing out.
Click to expand...

I was just stating a fact. Not an opinion about whether it is good or bad or indifferent. The point stilkl remains that sharing tracks and sharing platforms are two different issues, with pros and cons regarding sharing platforms or not.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I was just stating a fact. Not an opinion about whether it is good or bad or indifferent. The point stilkl remains that sharing tracks and sharing platforms are two different issues, with pros and cons regarding sharing platforms or not.


I wasn't criticizing you. I was questioning the logic behind the decision.

But it's AAF's money. Let them spend it as they wish.


----------



## George Harris

Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.


----------



## Paulus

George Harris said:


> Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.


Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?


----------



## Ryan

The NJT multilevel cars certainly do.


----------



## jis

As do the LIRR C-3s. Actually I like the LIRR C-3s a bit more than the NJT MLVs.

And yes, the TGV Duplexes would fit the NYP loading gauge.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Shawn Ryu

Superliners are insanely tall cars compared to other passengers cars guys.

They are abnormal.


----------



## Paulus

Draft EIS is now available


----------



## Anderson

(1) Every time I see a "FONSI" I keep expecting Henry Winkler to stomp his foot and turn on a jukebox.

(2) 3,470,800 is the projected 2019 ridership in the base case. That is _not_ far off of what I recall us eyeballing the projections they had to be making as some time ago. Of interest is that the Orlando-South Florida market (1,526,300) only comes in at about 44% of the total. The intra-South Florida market's ridership (1,944,500) puts about 170 passengers on your "average" train, assuming 16x daily trains in each direction. I don't know if this is quite enough to justify the service within South Florida entirely on its own, but I suspect there's a case for eating some losses here in the first few years to cultivate the market. Adding the additional 130 passengers/train going between Orlando and South Florida puts you at close to 300/train...which should be more than enough for the train to pay for itself and then some (this level of ridership is, for example, consistent with the Lynchburger).

(3) More fun with data in the "Ridership and Revenue Study Summary" (which makes no mention of revenue in the summary): https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L15932

-The "Business Plan Case", covering some marketing efforts and, more importantly, taking into account connectivity effects in South Florida. This adds about a half-million long-distance riders as well as a small bump for ridership within South Florida. Total ridership here comes to 4,013,000 (2,010,900 short-distance and 2,002,100 long-distance).

-The "Management Case", which takes into account a bunch of stuff that AAF's management is looking at doing; to quote the study (emphasis mine):



> The Business Plan Case does not include the impact of certain strategies that are commonly employed by management of similar consumer-oriented rail operating companies and that could potentially further increase ridership and/or revenue such as (i) revenue yield management strategies; (ii) frequent rider loyalty programs; (iii) block ticket agreements with resorts and educational institutions; and (iv) plans for further local transit connections not known at the time of preparation of the Business Plan Case forecast....
> 
> *Management Case estimates are presented herein to illustrate AAF management’s expectation for the operation of passenger service.*


These numbers came to 2,671,556 short-distance; 2,434,300 long-distance; 5,105,856 total. That would put average per-train ridership at 208 LD, 229 SD, and therefore about 437 total. Obviously there's some turnover implied, but assuming 400-ish seats per train (an average ridership that high borders on impossible).

--Also of interest is that post-ramp-up, ridership is expected to keep growing in line with the market. This makes sense (and the rates make sense as well), though the 2030 ridership projection under the Business Case scenario comes in at 5.45m/yr (which translates back down into 467/train). Kicking this growth over to the Management Case spits out _just under seven million_ riders per year (6.95m, to be exact), or almost 600 riders per train (at which point I think we can safely say "this is impossible under proposed service levels).

The way I read this, AAF is expecting to need to grab additional equipment down the line in some form (either running longer trains or more trains). Per the EIS, a 20% increase in frequency (i.e. 3 extra trains per day for the first iteration, for 19; 4 for the second, for 23; 4 for the third iteration, for 27; 5 for the fourth iteration, for 32) would likely trigger a 5.4% bump in ridership. Iterating this out, 23 trains/day yields 7.72m/yr (or 460/train) while 32/day yields 8.58m (or 367/train).

I draw out 23/day (as a proxy for 24/day) and 32/day because those zoom in on AAF's demands for Tri-Rail service planning. Following the logic of the Management Case (and to a lesser extent the Business Case), by 2030 AAF very much does not expect to be able to accommodate demand on 16x daily trains. 24x daily hits an assumption that some of the additional trains would be planned either to run up to Jacksonville and/or serve additional destinations along the coast or would accommodate demand from a Tampa extension. 32x daily just assumes that all of the added trains get thrown in to deal with traffic on the existing corridor.

Anyhow, I'm done for now...but the studies shed a _lot_ of light on some of the behind-the-scenes aspects we'd been seeing. Then again, a lot of this isn't telling us anything new...it's just spelling out what a lot of us already twigged.


----------



## George Harris

Paulus said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
Click to expand...

Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.


----------



## cirdan

George Harris said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.
Click to expand...

When I travel on the TGV Duplex I always try a get a first calss ticket as I find those trains very cramped in second class. Quite in contrast to Corail cars which are very comfortable and spacious in second class.


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## Anderson

Another factor which stood out in the EIS is the freight speed improvement. I'm not sure how this translates into cost savings or capacity, but there seems to be an average increase in freight speeds of about 15-20% (basically from the low/mid 30s to around 40 MPH overall) on about 180 miles of track (Cocoa to southern Broward) and a slight decline within Miami-Dade indicated (even though the "change in speed" number disagrees with the projected speed averages). It looks like FEC's freight business won't do too badly with this service.

Also as a minor disagreement...the last MCO-bound train arrives at 0010 (departing MIA at 2100) while the last MIA-bound train arrives at 2310 (departing MCO at 2000). If the start of service is 15 hours earlier this suggests that the first train will leave MIA at 0600, not 0500 (though MCO would have an 0500 departure for MIA).


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## beautifulplanet

PS: Being aware that this is a thread about the upcoming FEC passenger rail service, still the previous posts were already about New York and bi-level services, so now this post is off-topic as well. 



George Harris said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Single versus double level is not just a question of fashion. When it comes to trains into and out of New York, and probably quite a bit of other track mileage in the northeast it is a question of clearances. Bi-level cars will simply not fit. If bi-level cars are built that do fit, tall passengers will have to be prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the TGV Duplex meet the height requirements for New York?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and the interior height of each level is less than that in a superliner, much less. They could not make them any taller and fit the European loading gauge. With a quick look I did not find the interior dimensions, however this can be noted: TGV duplex is 4320 mm high = 14'-2". The Superliner is 16'-2" high. Most of that additional 2 feet would be in interior height. Another way to put it, the duplex has to have interior ceiling heights under 7 feet, probably well under 7 feet, somewhere between 6'-3" and 6'-6" would be my guess, while the Superliner would have at least 7 feet, possible some more.
Click to expand...

To some, it might seem like it's good to read that bi-level cars would fit into New York City loading gauges and that tall passengers would not have to be prohibited, as they are also not prohibited on current TGV Duplex trainsets. The national railway company of France, SNCF, before ordering any TGV Duplex trainsets, carried out intensive tests to see if using bi-level cars in high-speed service would be accepted by passengers, having a similar interior ceiling height of 194cm (so a little more than 6 feet 4 inches) that lots and lots of existing bi-level cars in regional or inter-city services in Europe already have. As they did that, the result was they received positive feedback from customers. Many might think, this is important as well, offering customers an attractive exterior and interior design, so some might think SNCF was wise, to conduct tests beforehand.



> When I travel on the TGV Duplex I always try a get a first calss ticket as I find those trains very cramped in second class. Quite in contrast to Corail cars which are very comfortable and spacious in second class.


Many might be surprised to hear "on the TGV Duplex" 2nd class is "very cramped", given that the TGV Duplex trainsets are popular with passengers and offer better comfort than many competing forms of travel, and that the seat pitch of 92cm in 2nd class is considered very generous by many. After all, that's more than 36 inches, and competing forms of travel are likely to offer much less.

While AirFrance still has 32 inch seating in economy (and in business as well, on French domestic flights, while even never more than 33 inches in business on intra-European services), AirFrance's subsidiary HOP! for domestic flights even just offers 31 inches. Then, the low-fare Transavia subsidiary that AirFrance wants to expand (also cause for the recent AirFrance pilot strikes), has as little as 29 inches of seat pitch.

In comparison, Southwest and JetBlue offer 32 inches in economy (with the "Even More Space" seats featuring 36 inches), while most US legacy airlines offer 31 or 30 inches, and while US low-fare airline Spirit just offers 28 inches of seat pitch to its customers. So even some of the Corail cars that just had a seat pitch of 87 cm (about 34 inches) should be more comfortable than that.

So it seems like no matter what one compares it to, the TGV duplex 2nd class seating might not seem to be too cramped to many, while of course the 95 cm (so more than 37 inches) of TGV duplex 1st class might be something not even offered on many competing transportation services.

To some, it might seem like a dream: dedicated high-speed rail infrastructure in the Northeast, and TGV Duplex or other modern, comfortable high-speed rail trainsets like them connecting New York City in 96 minutes with Boston or Washington D.C. respectively, and with even faster connections to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Providence and other cities in New England. Some might think it's fortunate though, that there are the US High Speed Rail Association lead by Mr. Andy Kunz, and other organizations who are advocating for this kind of service, to try to turn the vision into a reality, not only because of the benefits it would bring to all the future riders, but also because of the economic development it would bring and thus because of all the benefits to the whole country.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Another factor which stood out in the EIS is the freight speed improvement. I'm not sure how this translates into cost savings or capacity, but there seems to be an average increase in freight speeds of about 15-20% (basically from the low/mid 30s to around 40 MPH overall) on about 180 miles of track (Cocoa to southern Broward) and a slight decline within Miami-Dade indicated (even though the "change in speed" number disagrees with the projected speed averages). It looks like FEC's freight business won't do too badly with this service.


Although the advantages of that may be partly if not wholly offset by freights having to be put "in the hole" to allow passenger trains to pass.


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## beautifulplanet

Many might think that the upcoming All Aboard Florida passenger rail service will be a great new asset to the state of Florida. At the same time, some might be concerned because of a recent press report in Florida Today about the draft environmental impact statement by the Federal Railroad Administration, claiming that "All Aboard Florida expects to [...] _build a single track between Cocoa and Orlando International Airport_ and start full service in 2017" (emphasis added).


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## jis

Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.

Since the distance between Cocoa and Orlando Airport is covered in much less than half an hour and for the next decade or more the projected traffic is one train each way per hour, this is not of immediate concern. Eventually if they want to go higher than that they will have to construct a long passing siding somewhere in the middle. but at present it is impossible to justify building a double track railroad, specially when one has to spend ones own money to do so. The current EIS is for what is to be built currently and not for all future eventualities. However, as long as nothing precludes adding a second track in significant parts of the ROW we are good for now.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.
> 
> Since the distance between Cocoa and Orlando Airport is covered in much less than half an hour and for the next decade or more the projected traffic is one train each way per hour, this is not of immediate concern. Eventually if they want to go higher than that they will have to construct a long passing siding somewhere in the middle. but at present it is impossible to justify building a double track railroad, specially when one has to spend ones own money to do so. The current EIS is for what is to be built currently and not for all future eventualities. However, as long as nothing precludes adding a second track in significant parts of the ROW we are good for now.


Are there any legal restrictions to the maximum speed you may run on a track that is used in both directions?

I understand in some countries there are such laws, which is part of the reason virtually all high speed lines are double track.


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## jis

There are no restrictions with proper signaling system. NEC runs bidirectionally signaled tracks at 150mph, soon to be 160mph.

HSR systems are double tracked mainly because they are designed to carry much heavier traffic than the Miami - Orlando line is designed to carry, at least initially. It is very difficult to recoup high infrastructure costs running only 32 trains a day, which basically amount to less than 2tph on an average. Removing the non-operational hours, in case of AAF it amounts to 2tph on any section of the ROW between MCO and Cocoa.


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## Brian_tampa

the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.


Ah, good to know. Missed that part. Thanks. That should easily allow upto 8 tph, with fleeting blocks in each direction, as Amtrak does on the NEC between Secaucus and Penn Station with single tracking through the North River Tubes.The capacity goes down dramatically if you start considering multiple fleeting blocks because of te time cost of claring the single track in one direction before the fleet in the opposite direction can start. It is of course a function of the transit time of the single track block and the headway permitted by the signaling system for safe operation.


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## Brian_tampa

After looking at google maps, the single track section will be about 16-17 miles in length. I believe AAF says the overall length between Orlando-Airport and Cocoa will be about 40 miles.


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## jis

That should be under 10 minute transit time, possibly as low as 8 minutes, if done at 125 mph. I wonder what headway will be permitted by the signaling system, at 125mph.


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## beautifulplanet

Off-topic once again:



jis said:


> Compared to accommodations on Amtrak trains TGV Duplex 2nd Class is indeed quite cramped. Been there done that.


Many might think that of course it's legit to state any opinion. So in case the opinion is that someone finds TGV Duplex "very cramped in second class", then many might think that's 100% legit. There might also be someone thinking they rather fly Air France intercontinental first class with 81 inch seat pitch, because they regard the intercontinental flat-seat 55 inch business class to be very cramped. Or someone who thinks Amtrak's 42 inch coach seats on the Northeast Corridor might be "very cramped", as they don't offer the 50 inches pitch of the Superliner coach cars.

At the same time, it seems like for most people, the TGV Duplex 2nd class seats are just the opposite of "very cramped". As it might be obvious looking at the seat pitch numbers provided in the post above, many regard tight airline economy class seating as "very cramped".

Here are just some other opinions:

Rail travel website "seat61.com" advises its readers that "2nd class is perfectly comfortable so there's no need to pay for 1st class [...]".

On the FlyerTalk forum, the following are all from different posts from just one single page, it's not one and the same person speaking:

"For TGV, I have always been pleased with 2nd Class--plenty of room."

"While there is a difference between 1st and 2nd Class on the TGV, it should be noted that 2nd Class is worlds better than coach class on an airplane."

"If you are only used to air travel you will find that second class on the TGV has about as much space as first class on US domestic airlines."

"I've gone both first and second on the TGV South. I wouldn't spend more to go first again. [...]"

So it might appear to many like 2nd class on TGV Duplex is not regarded as "very cramped" by the majority of the people, instead they seem to be quite satisfied with the service.

On-topic:



> the majority of the Cocoa to Orlando airport will be double track. From what I can see (reading the OOCEA and FDOT alignment documents that are part of the DEIS) the single track section will be in the middle of the route. Approximately 7 miles east of the airport to about 4 miles west of the St Johns river bridge. #32 turnouts will be installed at each end of single track territory.


Thank you, Brian_tampa, for this information. Many might think that if this is how it will actually be built with 16 single track miles in the middle of the 40 mile Cocoa to MCO section, then it will not have such a negative effect on operating quality. The DEIS document is 500+ pages, so just browsing through all of this, it might sometimes be a little difficult to find the desired information. Some might think that if it was 40 miles of single track from Cocoa to MCO, especially without any sidings, it could have put a serious dent in operating quality, which could have seemed like a missed chance since some might think All Aboard Florida represents such a big opportunity to substantially change the perceptions of inter-city passenger rail in the US for the better, with a rail service that actually operates on modern infrastructure with tracks owned by its parent company, so instead of having huge delays like Amtrak does on a regular basis, it has the potential to be a very reliable rail system with a high on-time performance (when not cutting too many corners, f.e. because it was "impossible to justify building a double track railroad" when one is using "ones (sic!) own money to do so").


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## jis

I believe the Cocoa - Orlando section will be owned by AAF and not by FEC. That is how they got off the STB hook, so there is no going back on that.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> I believe the Cocoa - Orlando section will be owned by AAF and not by FEC. That is how they got off the STB hook, so there is no going back on that.


What did the track ownership have to do with the STB situation? I thought the STB bit had to do with no ticket interlining more than anything.

Edit: Also, AAF is a wholly-owned subsidiary. If freight stuff gets into the mix...well, what's the difference on who owns the tracks? It's like the difference between C&O, B&O, and Chessie back in the 80s.


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## cirdan

beautifulplanet said:


> Many might think that of course it's legit to state any opinion. So in case the opinion is that someone finds TGV Duplex "very cramped in second class", then many might think that's 100% legit. There might also be someone thinking they rather fly Air France intercontinental first class with 81 inch seat pitch, because they regard the intercontinental flat-seat 55 inch business class to be very cramped. Or someone who thinks Amtrak's 42 inch coach seats on the Northeast Corridor might be "very cramped", as they don't offer the 50 inches pitch of the Superliner coach cars.
> 
> At the same time, it seems like for most people, the TGV Duplex 2nd class seats are just the opposite of "very cramped". As it might be obvious looking at the seat pitch numbers provided in the post above, many regard tight airline economy class seating as "very cramped".
> 
> Here are just some other opinions:
> 
> Rail travel website "seat61.com" advises its readers that "2nd class is perfectly comfortable so there's no need to pay for 1st class [...]".


I was actually comparing the TGV Duplex to the Corail cars they replaced, not to any airliners. So I stand by my statement.

Cramped may not just be a function of seat inches, but there is also a perception of crampedness, caused for example by low ceilings, inability (in certain seats) to look out of the window, fellow passengers cluttering up the aisle with luggage etc.

The SNCF website frequently has special offers on 1st class seats and I generally buy these if the price difference is reasonable. If I have to pay a lot more, I don't bother. But if the train is a single level TGV or a Corail, I don't even bother to checvk first class prices.


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## Brian_tampa

Seems the other shoe has finally dropped on the alternative financing plan (to a RRIF loan) that AAF has been hinting at for a while. Reports tonight say that AAF will seek $1.75B in "private activity bonds" to finance the project. I assume this will also pay off the previous PIK bonds that were sold earlier at a high interest rate. The article says AAF is highly confident that the bonds will be sold.

This will help move the project along IMO and also silence some of the NIMBYS on the Treasure Coast (maybe!). One less issue to deal with now it appears.

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2014/10/06/aboard-florida-move-claims-take-heat-taxpayers/16834789/

Edit: from the AAF website - more details:

Financing
FACT: All Aboard Florida is fully financed to begin construction on the south segment. Our current RRIF loan application is still pending, however, we have decided to pursue private debt financing for the remaining capital needed. A private activity bond (PAB) allocation would represent an alternative plan to finance the project and would replace or substantially reduce the current RRIF request.


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## Brian_tampa

more details about the private activity bonds being issued by AAF later this year from the bondbuyer.com website today:

*Highlights:*

_$3.17B total will be spent on the AAF project - includes rolling stock, construction of stations and development, railroad construction, land acquisition._

Edit: I have been told that the $1.42B number "from other funds" is not correct. So the best number for overall cost is the approximately $2.5B number that has been reported in the past.

_AAF to sell bonds in November and December._

_Florida Development Finance Corporation already gave preliminary approval back in August._

_Sole payment for the bonds is revenue from the project - i.e. no public money._

_Proceeds from previous bond sale is being held in escrow. I assume AAF is using FECI money for now to cover short term expenses, until the PABs are sold or the RRIF loan is approved. Either fund would be used to pay off the cost (not the actual bond proceeds, which would be returned) of issuing the bonds last summer._

_Brevard and Miami-Dade have to modify their agreements with FDFC to allow for such a large bond amount._

http://www.bondbuyer.com/news/regionalnews/florida-passenger-train-sponsors-seek-175b-in-private-activity-bonds-1066844-1.html

BRADENTON, Fla. - All Aboard Florida, the $3.2 billion private passenger train service proposed between Miami and Orlando, applied for what may be the largest private activity bond allocation ever awarded by the Federal Highway Administration.
All Aboard requested a $1.75 billion allocation in August, and hopes to sell tax exempt private activity bonds in November and December to partly finance the 235-mile-long project, the company told The Bond Buyer.
If an allocation is approved, it also may be the first completely privately owned and operated transportation project to receive some of the $15 billion in exempt facility bonds authorized by Congress under the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act.
The FHA had authorized $10.2 billion in PABs as of Sept. 17. Of that amount, the largest, single federal PAB allocation has been $1.3 billion for a $2.45 billion light-rail project in Maryland, which could be eclipsed by the Florida passenger rail project.
To date, most - if not all - FHA private activity bond allocations have had a public sponsor and used the financing as part of a public-private partnership. Maryland, for example, expects to select a private partner next year to design, build, finance, operate and maintain its 16.2-mile commuter line.
All Aboard Florida doesn't have a public partner in development or financing of its project.
Florida officials including Gov. Rick Scott have denied that any direct state funding will go toward the rail project.
In communities along the controversial train route, particularly the congested east coast, there will be publicly funded maintenance costs for improved rail crossing safety.
At Orlando International Airport, where a $1.1 billion capital improvement plan has received some state funds, All Aboard is leasing property for its train station as part of a long-planned intermodal transit facility that will also serve local commuter rail.
AAF, whose parent company is Florida East Coast Industries, hasn't announced its finance team publicly.
"All Aboard Florida successfully secured private financing for the first phase of the project earlier this year," said Michael Reininger, president and chief development officer of All Aboard Florida. "We have therefore determined to pursue private debt financing for the remaining capital needed."
Reininger also said that investors in the tax exempt bonds to be sold are "private entities, therefore, this financing mechanism poses zero risk to the local, county, state or federal governments."
"The $1.75 billion of bonds will be marketed and sold to private investors in the capital markets," he said. "Repayment of the bonds will be an obligation of All Aboard Florida, and no other private or public entity."
AAF also applied for a $1.6 billion low-interest loan from the Federal Railroad Administration's Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Loan program that would be the largest of its kind.
While All Aboard has often said that the project is being privately financed, opponents of the project concerned about its potential safety impacts have argued that the RRIF loan could be a liability for taxpayers.
AAF said the RRIF loan application is still pending, but private activity bonds would be an alternative method to finance the project that would replace or substantially reduce the RRIF loan request.
Kevin Thompson, spokesman for the Federal Railroad Administration, confirmed that All Aboard submitted applications for the RRIF loan and the bond allocation and referred all other questions to the railroad company.
All Aboard is proposing to offer 235 miles of daily passenger service from Orlando to Miami, with stops in West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale.
A draft environmental impact statement for a portion of the line is under review at this time, and public information meetings have been scheduled for October and November
The Florida Development Finance Corp. has been asked to serve as conduit issuer for the private activity bonds if the federal government authorizes the allocation, said executive director Bill Spivey.
FDFC is authorized statewide to issue industrial revenue bonds through interlocal agreements in the counties affected by the financed projects.
The FDFC board gave preliminary approval to issue debt for All Aboard Florida on Aug. 20, so the resolution could be included in the company's federal application for the private activity bond allocation, Spivey said.
The preliminary approval also started the process for necessary documents to be developed, and the deal still requires final authorization from the FDFC board, he said.
AAF plans to make improvements in eight counties in order to build its new passenger service, but preliminarily, bond proceeds would be spent in only five of those counties, according to All Aboard's application to the FDFC for conduit financing.
The FDFC's existing interlocal agreements with Brevard and Miami-Dade counties must be amended to allow for the amount bonds that All Aboard expects to issue, according to Joseph Stanton, a partner at the law firm Broad and Cassel, which represents the Florida Development Finance Corp.
Brevard and Miami-Dade officials will be asked to amend the interlocal agreement later this month or in early November, said Stanton.
"Our disclosure documents will clearly enumerate that sole payment for the bonds is revenue from the project," he said.
Spivey said it is too soon to determine if the bonds will be publicly marketed, of if they will be sold in a private placement or limited offering.
"I think that we would want the bonds to be sold in minimum denominations of $100,000, and to institutional or accredited investors," he said, adding that similar structures are often required on other financings by the FDFC.
All Aboard's application for conduit financing said the company is in discussion with rating agencies for the proposed issuance.
The application also indicates that AAF plans to use $1.75 billion of privately placed fixed-rate bond proceeds in conjunction with $1.42 billion of other funds to finance land acquisition, construction, equipment and rolling stock.
Some bond proceeds may be used to reimburse prior expenses, including the issuance of $405 million in high-yield notes that closed on July 1 with a 12% coupon. The note proceeds are currently held in escrow, according to the application.
"Upon successful completion of an offering of private activity bonds by AAF or its affiliates, the proceeds from this $405 million debt financing will be returned to the holders thereof, and neither AAF nor any of its affiliates will receive any such debt financing proceeds," the application said.
The company said it is currently in discussion with a number of "top-tier financial institutions" and expects to select its lead underwriter shortly.
The privately owned and operated passenger rail service will be offered along a 235-mile corridor between central and south Florida with a total of 32 daily roundtrips.
The service is expected to begin in the fourth quarter of 2016 between Miami and West Palm Beach, and in the first quarter of 2017 from West Palm to Orlando.
Spivey said All Aboard's application for conduit financing helps the Florida Development Finance Corp. fulfill its purpose. FDFC has served as conduit issuer for charter schools, health care and independent living facilities, private airport and economic development projects, among others.
"FDFC's mission is to undertake financings as a conduit issuer for economic development purposes," Spivey said. "If you look at All Aboard Florida's website, they've done some economic analysis and there are some significant near- and long-term benefits to these jurisdictions."
In addition to creating thousands of jobs during construction and operation, the train is expected to result in an economic impact of $6.4 billion from rail line construction and operations, and transit oriented development, according to an AAF commissioned economic impact study by the Washington Economics Group Inc.
The project would also result in an estimated $653 million in new federal, state and local tax revenue, the study said.


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## jis

The issuance of $1.753 billion worth of private bonds by FDFC required the raising of caps by Miami-Dade and Brevard Counties. Both the counties voted to do so today. So the all regulatory hindrances to the issuance of those bonds have now been addressed and cleared. In Brevard the vote was 3-2 but it did pass. At least one commissioner voted against it not because he is opposed to the project but because he believes that the whole thing should be handled by the newly elected commission. This could very well be a passing the buck exercise hoping that the next commission would behave more aligned with what he actually wants, which of course no one knows for sure.

In a few weeks of course the composition of the county commission will be changed following the elections. So who knows what will happen next. As part of this motion they also resolved to change a bunch of agreements with FEC regarding quiet zone funding (AAF and state responsibility, not county responsibility) and sealed corridor funding (100% AAF responsibility). Also the nature of the agreement between AAF and OCEA became clearer and apparently the wheels are already in motion to modify/address the concerns implicit in that agreement smoothing the way for adding a station in Brevard County. But this will not happen until after the current project goes on line. The Commissioners did not appear to have a problem with that situation, and appeared confident that what is needed will get done.


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## jis

From the _Palm Beach Post_ re: the Miami-Dade vote.

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2014/10/21/miami-dade-approves-all-aboard-florida-bond-issue/


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## Brian_Tampa

From what I have been told, a new station cannot be added at this time because it would impact the EIS process. That is the real reason why AAF has been non-committal to an additional station north of WPB. I do believe that Brevard will be the area that gets the new station. IRC and St Lucie have been so opposed to AAF. Martin County is too close to WPB. Expect to see a station to serve Cocoa and the cruise ships there is my bet.


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## Anderson

Brian:
As I understand it, they'll also have to negotiate with the expressway people to add anything north of WPB due to the terms of the deal they did with them to get access.


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## Paulus

Anderson said:


> Brian:
> 
> As I understand it, they'll also have to negotiate with the expressway people to add anything north of WPB due to the terms of the deal they did with them to get access.


Here's the agreement, relevant portion starts on the bottom of page 4.


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## jis

It is just a matter of negotiating a money amount to cover the highway Bond holders. I understand it will take the form of certain amount of revenue sharing from the additional stop for the period of the bonds, or some such. It is not as big a deal as has been made out. Alternatively the state could choose to chip in some. It is currently an open issue since nothing will happen until after the current plans are completed.

Reninger said that they have such an agreement in place for the currently planned stations.

Basically they want AAF to pay them $2 for each car that is removed from the Beachline as a result of the train. This translates to some amount less than $2 as a tax on each Orlando Cocoa/Melbourne or vice versa ticket sold. That does not sound like an insurmountable amount in any case anyway. This is how it was roughly explained in a separate meeting. The reason that it was not part of the first round of negotiations was to divide and conquer, and to keep things simple for the first round. The AAF folks have repeatedly said that for this reason and in order not to jeopardize the EIS they cannot make any written commitments at present but once the service is established they have every intention to add a Cocoa/Melbourne stop and would even be open to building a branch to Port Canavaral.

It was no surprise that the Mayor of Cocoa came out in strong support of AAF. The two Commissioners who voted against, the more vocal one is from Palm Bay - probably affected by the virulent anti-propaganda going on to their immediate south in Indian River and St. Lucie. And the other one voted against because he wanted the incoming Commission to take this up and leave it to them. He is from coastal Melbourne. I am at least happy to say that my Commissioner, who I rattled off an email to several days before the meeting, voted in favor of the motion, as did the two Commissioners from northern Brevard.


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## Anderson

In the long run, there will probably end up being a stop south of Cocoa somewhere whether the local government wants it or not. I honestly cannot see a passenger train running through about 130 miles (West Palm Beach to Cocoa is 136 miles per Google Maps) of respectably built-up area without stopping. I'd be shocked if AAF wouldn't be leaving upwards of a million trips on the table with that. My best guess is that you'll eventually see 2-4 stops along that line...but not all trains will make all stops.

Port Canaveral is going to be interesting. There, my best guess is that they'll extend in about the same time they start extending out west towards Disney. Considering that Disney was more than happy to get on board with the bullet train supplanting the "Magical Express" bus service last time around, I'm sure that AAF will be able to work something out with them.


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## CHamilton

Officials want South Florida to break off into its own state


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## jis

Yup, just like Vermont every so often passes a resolution to secede from the US too.


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## CHamilton

GE delivering Florida East Coast Railway [freight] locos




> USA: Florida East Coast Railway is about to take delivery of the first of 24 GE Transportation ES44C4 locomotives which it ordered in January.
> 
> All of the Tier 3 compliant Evolution Series locomotives are scheduled to arrive in Florida by the end of the year. The four-motored locomotives will be used to haul intermodal, wagonload, automotive and port freight traffic on the railway's 560 km Jacksonville – Miami main line.


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## jis

You may wish to be somewhat entertained by this.... Why This Treasure Coast Mom Wants To Stop ‘All Aboard Florida’ Dead In Its Tracks

Specially some of the comments are priceless.

It looks like St. Lucie and Martin County are going out on a limb to oppose. Indian River is sitting on the fence though on the whole slightly opposed is my impression, and Brevard has been generally supportive, specially the north two thirds of it. The breakdown between supporters and opponents basically lines up pretty squarely between urban and suburban supporting and relatively rural population opposing. Also the ones that are least likely to eventually get stations seem to be more opposed at this point. Although St. Lucie and Vero Beach surprise me a bit. Jupiter is a bunch of spoiled brats and I'd expect nothing less from them, somewhat like the nuisance that we have seen in the Connecticut Shore Line up north.


----------



## jphjaxfl

That lady is still clueless in her understanding of passenger rail operations. Its something new so she doesn't want it. It's a plus for the future of South and Central Florida. If it is successful, it will benefit the entire state.


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## afigg

jis said:


> You may wish to be somewhat entertained by this.... Why This Treasure Coast Mom Wants To Stop ‘All Aboard Florida’ Dead In Its Tracks
> 
> Specially some of the comments are priceless.


I was fully entertained by the article and especially the comments. I wonder if the "Treasure Coast Mom" has ever taken a passenger train in her life. Be it intercity, regional rail, commuter, even a metro or subway train?


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## chrsjrcj

Ground breaking for the WPB station today. I have a lunch "date" with the family, or I would've checked it out. Fortunately, the station is right next to where I work, so it will be fun to watch the progress.


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## jis

Construction is starting at the Orlando International Airport on 1st January which will culminate in the construction of the inter-modal terminal where AAF service to Miami will terminate. There are several other elements to the project including major enhancement of the north terminal. Total cost will be around $1.1 billion.

See http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/12/airport-kicking-off-on-600m-worth-of-projects-in.html


----------



## Brian_tampa

yesterday it was reported that construction on the second track has begun. does anyone in South Florida have or can take any pictures of this work?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-all-aboard-street-closures-20150112-story.html

In another sign the All Aboard Florida project is moving forward, crews on Monday began laying the second mainline track near Hypoluxo Road in Palm Beach County. That section should be completed by the end of January.

"This represents the first major component of track construction for All Aboard Florida," said spokeswoman Ali Soule.

Next, crews will begin building a second track in Boca Raton.

"These projects are focused on improving specific sections of track and work will therefore not move continuously along the corridor in this initial phase," Soule said. "The work will not interfere with any pedestrian or vehicle traffic."


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## jis

Some photos are starting to appear on the Facebook pages of AAF and FEC.


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## Blackwolf

Brian_tampa said:


> yesterday it was reported that construction on the second track has begun. does anyone in South Florida have or can take any pictures of this work?
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-all-aboard-street-closures-20150112-story.html
> 
> In another sign the All Aboard Florida project is moving forward, crews on Monday began laying the second mainline track near Hypoluxo Road in Palm Beach County. That section should be completed by the end of January.
> 
> "This represents the first major component of track construction for All Aboard Florida," said spokeswoman Ali Soule.
> 
> Next, crews will begin building a second track in Boca Raton.
> 
> "These projects are focused on improving specific sections of track and work will therefore not move continuously along the corridor in this initial phase," Soule said. "The work will not interfere with any pedestrian or vehicle traffic."


ALERT: Pay Wall. The article cited is not visible without subscribing.


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## chrsjrcj

Monday I took a trip by the Hypuluxo siding and saw FEC crews working on the southend. I then headed over to Bud's Chicken and Seafood on Boynton Beach Blvd. where a local freight stopped so the crew could get some takeout. About 10 minutes later a hi-rail truck stopped and the driver ordered some takeout. :giggle: I should have him asked what they were up to.

I didn't get too excited when I saw the construction work thinking it was just regular maintenance, but now that I know I'll check it out tomorrow.


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## chrsjrcj

If you Google News "All Aboard Florida" the Sun Sentinel article will pop up without the pay wall.


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## chrsjrcj

Though I wonder if the news media is a bit confused. I doubt they can finish laying a second track in PBC before the end of January. My guess is they are upgrading the existing sidings in Hypuluxo and Boca.


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## neroden

OK, with construction underway, I now actually believe they're going to open something in 2016.


----------



## jis

I am eagerly waiting to see the Viaggio derived American Comfort cars and of course ride them. I wonder if they could become potential candidates for Amfleet I replacement too. But that may be tied up with the acceptability of them as an instance of the single level design that was put together by Amtrak and FRA, as usual on their own, without talking to any manufacturers.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> I am eagerly waiting to see the Viaggio derived American Comfort cars and of course ride them. I wonder if they could become potential candidates for Amfleet I replacement too. But that may be tied up with the acceptability of them as an instance of the single level design that was put together by Amtrak and FRA, as usual on their own, without talking to any manufacturers.


I look forward to seeing how they perform under US conditions (generally rougher track, higher external temperatures (at least in FL), possibly different maintenance regime)


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## chrsjrcj

Here are a couple of pics I took near the southend of the Hypuluxo siding (at Gateway Blvd. for those familiar with the area). Right now they are only upgrading the existing siding.


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## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am eagerly waiting to see the Viaggio derived American Comfort cars and of course ride them. I wonder if they could become potential candidates for Amfleet I replacement too. But that may be tied up with the acceptability of them as an instance of the single level design that was put together by Amtrak and FRA, as usual on their own, without talking to any manufacturers.
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to seeing how they perform under US conditions (generally rougher track, higher external temperatures (at least in FL), possibly different maintenance regime)
Click to expand...

 Well, the US conditions they will be performing under will be new and completely refurbished FEC owned ROW.


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## Metra Electric Guest

FEC uses concrete ties, correct, which I'm seeing the photo, right?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Short video I filmed yesterday of the construction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7qgeH_3Ksk




Metra Electric Guest said:


> FEC uses concrete ties, correct, which I'm seeing the photo, right?




Correct.


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## Metra Electric Guest

Thanks! I gather this is because of the existing freight loading, not just rot and termites eating wood (despite the creosote, etc).


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## VentureForth

I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.


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## PRR 60

VentureForth said:


> I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.


The key is to design the concrete tie - size, concrete type, reinforcing - so that it does not crack under expected loads. This is pretty much cookbook, and the ties are basically catalog items. Railroad loadings per code should not affect a properly designed tie.

The biggest issue with concrete ties is quality control and assurance in the manufacturing process and assuring that the concrete and the specific ballast stone do not have a detrimental chemical interaction. These kinds of issues have been the cause of the premature failure of concrete ties on the NEC and in other places.


----------



## CHamilton

FL: State Misses Deadline for All Aboard Florida Comments




> Jan. 15--The state apparently has squandered its opportunity to comment on All Aboard Florida. It missed the Dec. 3 deadline, and -- nine weeks later -- still hasn't submitted its comments.
> The Florida Clearinghouse -- responsible for crafting the state's official response -- is "reviewing" All Aboard Florida's environmental impact statement, according to Dee Ann Miller, spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Protection, which runs the Clearinghouse.
> 
> For certain major projects, such as All Aboard Florida, the Clearinghouse compiles comments from regional and state agencies and uses them to draft the state's response.
> 
> Comments on the All Aboard Florida environmental impact statement from the Florida departments of Transportation, Fish and Wildlife and Environmental Protection could be discarded due to the missed deadline.


----------



## cirdan

Metra Electric Guest said:


> FEC uses concrete ties, correct, which I'm seeing the photo, right?


Not just concrete ties, but also clips rather than spikes.


----------



## jis

Can you actually use spikes on concrete ties? I must admit I am yet to see a concrete tie that did not use either the Pandrol "spaghetti" or E slips. But of course that does not mean that someone has not managed hammer spikes into concrete ties without cracking them.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Can you actually use spikes on concrete ties? I must admit I am yet to see a concrete tie that did not use either the Pandrol "spaghetti" or E slips. But of course that does not mean that someone has not managed hammer spikes into concrete ties without cracking them.


Not conventional spikes, but I have seen bolts.

One of the advantages of concrete ties is that the dimensions are so much more precise than for wooden ones. At the same time this is also their weakness as customized geometry gets very expensive so you revert to wood for such items.


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## jis

Exactly. That is when geometry is standardized as much as possible for switches, so that you can place them on standardized switch concrete ties, as is being done all over. You see a lot of that on the NEC for example as they upgrade the universal crossovers to moving frog switches and sometimes even to higher speed turnout switches.


----------



## Anderson

CHamilton said:


> FL: State Misses Deadline for All Aboard Florida Comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jan. 15--The state apparently has squandered its opportunity to comment on All Aboard Florida. It missed the Dec. 3 deadline, and -- nine weeks later -- still hasn't submitted its comments.
> 
> The Florida Clearinghouse -- responsible for crafting the state's official response -- is "reviewing" All Aboard Florida's environmental impact statement, according to Dee Ann Miller, spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Protection, which runs the Clearinghouse.
> 
> For certain major projects, such as All Aboard Florida, the Clearinghouse compiles comments from regional and state agencies and uses them to draft the state's response.
> 
> Comments on the All Aboard Florida environmental impact statement from the Florida departments of Transportation, Fish and Wildlife and Environmental Protection could be discarded due to the missed deadline.
Click to expand...

Any ideas on what the net effect of this would be on the project?


----------



## Paulus

All Aboard Florida to move “as quickly as possible” to Tampa, Jax, editor says



> In the December issue of Florida Trend magazine the executive editor’s column about All Aboard Florida makes a statement about its future that the express passenger rail service has yet to make publicly.
> 
> In his En Route column, executive editor Mark R. Howard says All Aboard will move “as quickly as possible to extend the train to Tampa and Jacksonville” once the Orlando train station is under construction.
> 
> ...
> 
> “All Aboard Florida is currently focused on developing and constructing the Orlando-to-Miami segment,” the company said in a statement when asked about Howard’s column. “Once the first phase is operational, we will work with stakeholders along the corridor and throughout the state to determine if expansion opportunities exist.”


----------



## edjbox

Jacksonville makes sense since FEC already goes there. Not sure about Tampa though- which tracks would they use?


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## jis

New track along the median of I-4.


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## Anderson

I think FEC has said they want to do Jacksonville first...probably because even if it wouldn't be free (there would presumably be some additional tracks to lay, stations and what have you), it would still be _far_ cheaper than Tampa. In theory, AAF could _probably _put some ADA-capable platforms in at JAX and a few other stations and start service in the space of a few weeks if they had the equipment (obviously, a bunch of EIS stuff would actually be at issue and the aforementioned track issues arise, but dropping 2-3 trains per day on the line should be doable given current traffic loads for FEC).

The bottom line, though, is that FEC has had to take out somewhere in the range of $1.5-2.0bn in loans (at least) to make this work, and Tampa would probably be another $1.5-2.0bn on top of that, while Jacksonville should be _far_ less.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I think FEC has said they want to do Jacksonville first...probably because even if it wouldn't be free (there would presumably be some additional tracks to lay, stations and what have you), it would still be _far_ cheaper than Tampa. In theory, AAF could _probably _put some ADA-capable platforms in at JAX and a few other stations and start service in the space of a few weeks if they had the equipment (obviously, a bunch of EIS stuff would actually be at issue and the aforementioned track issues arise, but dropping 2-3 trains per day on the line should be doable given current traffic loads for FEC).
> 
> The bottom line, though, is that FEC has had to take out somewhere in the range of $1.5-2.0bn in loans (at least) to make this work, and Tampa would probably be another $1.5-2.0bn on top of that, while Jacksonville should be _far_ less.


Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but double tracking does not purely benefit the passenger service as it also benefits their freight business, even if just as a collaterally unintended benefit.

An entirely new line would probably not see much (if any) freight and thus the ROI would have to be fully generated by passenger operations. This puts it in a higher risk bracket.


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## Brian_tampa

Another piece of the puzzle falls in place today as it is announced that Tele-Vic will supply the onboard infotainment system for the Siemens train cars:

http://www.televic-rail.com/en/AAF

http://www.televic-rail.com/en/iCoM

This same system will be installed on the new Calgary light rail cars being built by Siemens as well. Looks like AAF will definitely not be like anything Amtrak has!


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## jis

It is starting to look like AAF will be more like Heathrow Express perhaps.


----------



## Anderson

This is a sincere question, but as someone who has never been to the UK (it's on the list...) is that a good thing or a bad thing?


----------



## jis

It's a good thing in my reckoning. Fast, reliable and efficient. The other characteristic, as in frequent - every 15 mins, does not apply to AAF.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.


The key question for tie choice is, in fact, climate.

Wood ties are terrible in Florida's wet, hot, salty weather. Concrete is actually pretty bad in Florida too, but wood is much worse.


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## Brian_tampa

Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/

How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/
> 
> How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL


It sounds like AAF's attitude is that they're willing to seriously look at adding stops if the counties are willing to make the first move. Of course, I suspect that Brevard has had a bit more constructive behind-the-scenes dialogue than the other counties have. As always, there's undoubtedly stuff going on that we're not party to.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/
> 
> How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL


Suffice it to say that took some amount of footwork to make it so. Fortunately north Brevard officials are believers. Some recalcitrant south Brevard folks had to be somehow dragged along.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.
> 
> 
> 
> The key question for tie choice is, in fact, climate.
> 
> Wood ties are terrible in Florida's wet, hot, salty weather. Concrete is actually pretty bad in Florida too, but wood is much worse.
Click to expand...

Both can be designed for the climate and traffic. A properly treated wood tie can last 30 years or more in Florida. This is proven. The nominal design life of a concrete tie is 50 years, but none have made it that long yet. This is not yet proven.


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## neroden

Guest: In Florida's climate, even properly treated wood ties do not last 30 years under high tonnage. (Low tonnage, yes.) I've read a fair number of survey articles regarding this. If you believe otherwise, you need to provide citations: otherwise, yes, I'm calling you a liar.

Basically concrete ties are expected to last 1.8 times as long as wooden ties in wet climates. Wooden ties last much longer in dry climates, so concrete ties last only about 1.2 times as long. This makes the economics different.

It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days, and creosote treatment is coming under more and more criticism due to its toxicity. Untreated or lightly treated wood ties last well in dry and cold zones, and fall apart very quickly in Florida.

The economics points towards wood ties on most lines in the US, but the Florida climate is different: by most estimates of levelized lifetime costs, concrete ties are cheaper.


----------



## PRR 60

neroden said:


> Guest: In Florida's climate, even properly treated wood ties do not last 30 years under high tonnage. (Low tonnage, yes.) I've read a fair number of survey articles regarding this. If you believe otherwise, you need to provide citations: otherwise, yes, I'm calling you a liar.
> 
> Basically concrete ties are expected to last 1.8 times as long as wooden ties in wet climates. Wooden ties last much longer in dry climates, so concrete ties last only about 1.2 times as long. This makes the economics different.
> 
> It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days, and creosote treatment is coming under more and more criticism due to its toxicity. Untreated or lightly treated wood ties last well in dry and cold zones, and fall apart very quickly in Florida.
> 
> The economics points towards wood ties on most lines in the US, but the Florida climate is different: by most estimates of levelized lifetime costs, concrete ties are cheaper.


Calling someone a "liar" because maybe their assertion is wrong is more than a little harsh, don't you think?


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> It's a good thing in my reckoning. Fast, reliable and efficient.


And goes to Paddington which really is the heart of London and where all the tourists and business people want to be.

(sorry, being cynical) 

Of course once Crossrail is complete, this will change totally.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days,


I think not impossible, but just crazily expensive.


----------



## Guest

cirdan said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days,
> 
> 
> 
> I think not impossible, but just crazily expensive.
Click to expand...

Talk to Norfolk Southern. This would be news to them.


----------



## Brian_tampa

FDOT to give SFRTA $21 million for construction of TriRail station platforms at AAF Miami station. This would really help out AAF by guaranteeing additional riders and better connectivity for more locations served by the TriRail network. Total cost is estimated to be about $69 million for the whole route including track work. This shows that the state government of Florida is still very much in favor of supporting commuter rail in S FL as well as AAF. I do think this will happen, as the other three government entities that will fund it should be able to contribute the rest without any problems. The only issue is the time frame - less than 2 months for government to decide!

I am sure AAF would be willing to relent a bit if it seems likely that support for the funding will eventually pass even if the deadline passes. This is too important for AAF to take a hard line on insisting funding be finalized so quickly.

In other news, CARE put out a completely biased economic report the other day. The whole premise is based on incorrect assumptions of costs. They claimed the rail part would cost $3.1 billion when all the numbers I have heard say $1.5 billion. The economist used the inflated number to claim that AAF will fail and not be able to pay off the debt from such a large loan.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article10716959.html#tabs-b0710947-1-tabPane-2

Quote:

According to City of Miami officials, the Florida Department of Transportation has agreed to pump $21 million into the project, leaving Tri-Rail with a $48 million hole to fill.

Alice Bravo, Miami's deputy city manager, said she met with a Tri-Rail representative Wednesday. She said the public funding being discussed, if it flies, would involve funds from the CRA, with a percentage also supplied by the city and county, which also would receive a small percentage of property taxes contributed by the Miami-Orlando train project.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article10716959.html#tabs-b0710947-1-tabPane-2#storylink=cpy


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> FDOT to give SFRTA $21 million for construction of TriRail station platforms at AAF Miami station.


It seems to me that $21 million for an entirely new station in a prime downtown location that is not even on an active rail line is very good value for money.

Atlanta for example is looking at many times that figure for its proposed new station.


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## jis

AFAICT all that needs to be done is building a low level platform for TriRail trains in space that is already allocated for such in the design. Indeed, Very good and efficient use of money. It would have been a pity if they did not come up with this money.


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## Brian_tampa

The $21 million as far as I know will not cover the whole cost of the station platforms and related areas. I recall that the station portion itself was estimated to cost around $40 million according to news reports back over last summer. The other $29 million would be for track and other infrastructure improvements. I would assume the 5 block long viaduct would require widening to allow for several more approach tracks. And for installing PTC along the branch to the Hialeah yards from the mainline junction to the CSX (SFRTA) rail crossing at Iris where FDOT is building a new connection in the NE quadrant using TIGER grant money awarded back in 2013.

I guess the biggest shocker for me is that the Scott administration, which at one time wanted to defund Tri-rail completely, is now spending money for its expansion! Could this be part of their overall support of AAF more so than for helping Tri-rail? I am beginning to believe that the Scott administration really wants to see AAF succeed. Perhaps it is, in part, to blunt the widespread criticism of him for rejecting HSR funds back in 2011? Then he could say at the end of his term as governor that private business succeeded in running a higher speed passenger rail service without using billions of tax money. I would not be surprised to see Gov Scott aboard the first run of an AAF train and use it politically in early 2017!


----------



## jis

Brian, whatever the convoluted reason is for Gov Scott to be on board with AAF, it does help to blunt the ridiculous nonsense that all his ardent supporters in Indian River and Martin County are indulging in. Can you imagine what would have happened if Gov Scott helped those morons instead?


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis,

I would hate to imagine. I would think that the Orlando intermodal station would not have been funded and the lease that AAF has with FDOT for the eastern half of the beachline expressway probably would have never been done without major concessions elsewhere (such as through the treasure coast area) on AAF's part.

By the way, I looked at the 2014 elections and IRC, SLC, and Martin county all voted for Scott by a margin of around 2% in each county. I would think that translates to there being an equal amount of dems and repubs in the opposition. My feeling is that the opposition is the usual NIMBY crap, business people with a vested interest (boat marinas etc...) funding the opposition, and local politicians stirring up the opposition for their own reasons (commissioner Bob Solari of IRC anyone?). If you read the local TC Palm you will know how that media outlet has definitely fanned the flames of opposition there!

The fact that after all of the stuff happening with AAF and the opposition to it on the treasure coast, that the governor's administration still supports AAF tells a lot. AAF will happen.

What did you think of the economic report that CARE put out a few days ago regarding AAF financial viability?


----------



## jis

On that all I can say is that I trust Gene Skorpowski more than I trust CARE. He actually has his skin, well entire career on line. There are some very fundamental erroneous assumptions on which the house that CARE built stands IMHO.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> I guess the biggest shocker for me is that the Scott administration, which at one time wanted to defund Tri-rail completely, is now spending money for its expansion! Could this be part of their overall support of AAF more so than for helping Tri-rail? I am beginning to believe that the Scott administration really wants to see AAF succeed. Perhaps it is, in part, to blunt the widespread criticism of him for rejecting HSR funds back in 2011? Then he could say at the end of his term as governor that private business succeeded in running a higher speed passenger rail service without using billions of tax money. I would not be surprised to see Gov Scott aboard the first run of an AAF train and use it politically in early 2017!


I think that a succesful and profitable privately financed and operated inter city train is a great argument for the GOP in their battle against Amtrak.

So I would suspect he's ideologically behind this scheme and wants it to succeed, even if this requires bending the definition of "no state support".


----------



## jis

I think they have pretty much said that 'no state support" means "no financial risk for the taxpayer". I can live with that definition. I am glad that Scott is supporting it in other important ways for whatever motivates him. I would like to see AAF succeed, and would like to see a station built in the Melbourne/Cocoa area, so that I can take it to Orlando Airport to catch my flights, instead of driving an hour to it.

Incidentally, I would also like to see Amtrak service down the FEC, which also is not something that Scott has vocally opposed. I could even live with FEC passenger service to JAX connecting with Amtrak there.


----------



## CHamilton

Miami-Orlando train track may host Tri-Rail commuter trains to downtown



> Tri-Rail, the commuter service that has been running trains on the CSX track west of Interstate 95 between Palm Beach County and Miami since late last century, is now working on a major new plan: to run trains into downtown Miami beginning in late 2016 or early 2017.
> 
> 
> Jack Stephens, executive director of the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority, said the plan calls for running the trains on a stretch of the same track that would be used by a planned Miami-Orlando passenger service.
> 
> The plan requires construction of a spur connecting the CSX track that Tri-Rail uses to the Florida East Coast Railway track. Though the spur is slated to be built by the Florida Department of Transportation, Tri-Rail is seeking an additional $69 million — money that would be needed within eight weeks to mesh with the construction schedule set for the Miami-Orlando service, known as All Aboard Florida. The money would be used to build Tri-Rail train platforms plus other enhancements such as ticket-vending machines.


----------



## Anderson

http://media.bizj.us/view/img/5093291/aaf-friedman-report.pdf

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/02/all-aboard-florida-to-lose-millions-annually.html

On the one hand, I want to cringe. Badly. On the other hand...

1) I'm going to assume that the report represents the worst-case scenario (a baseline for performance, if you will) given that it was commissioned by an anti-rail

2) Even hiring an economist to attack the project they couldn't knock the CR under about 118%. That is, IMHO, a very good sign.

3) ...which leads to the ticket price assumptions, which on a quick read-through are almost insanely low, particularly to/from Orlando on the "leisure" side (the cost indicated is _far_ below the IRS costs associated with driving, and from what I can tell is actually below gas+tolls).

4) Also, on the ridership assumptions...without discussing the relative levels, there's no attempt to made to differentiate ridership on the basis of distance (I'll happily grant that ridership WPB-MIA is going to have a different character than that MCO-MIA).

5) The debt service assumptions seem to be more than a little high. I'll grant a fair catch here while disagreeing, in that he used the 12.5% coupon on the bonds issued earlier as the basis for his figures. I would argue for a substantially lower figure, mainly because those bonds came out before _any_ approvals had gone through IIRC (so it wasn't even clear if there would be assets to grab if they flopped), not to mention that IIRC the bonds were issued with the option for AAF to pay them in more bonds rather than cash.

--Moreover, going with the author's estimate of a cost of 5% on the bonds, the debt service would be $87.5m (not $125m); even going with the 5.9% indicated later you're only at about $103.25m.

6) Finally, taken as a whole...this is a caveat emptor for bond buyers, not an argument that the project will fail. Particularly if there are indirect benefits for FEC and/or significant development profits from the station projects above and beyond the stations themselves (he largely ignored those, but that seems likely to make a significant dent in the bottom line), there's a lot of room to improve on those numbers without touching the ridership estimates.

--On the ridership side, I'd be curious as to what the ridership figures for the closest station pairs to the AAF stations are on Tri-Rail.

--Also on the ridership side, I'd be curious as to how many riders would be choosing the train themselves versus a cruise line deciding it is cheaper to fly folks into MCO and move them on a train than to fly them into FLL.


----------



## cirdan

These reports seem to be suggesting that AAF hasn't done due diligence and run the figures.

I'm pretty sure they have.

They're backed by a succesful corporation and corporations don't get succesful by living in la la fantasy land.


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## Tokkyu40

The report was funded by CARE FL.

Who is that and why do they care about the train?


----------



## Anderson

Tokkyu40 said:


> The report was funded by CARE FL.
> 
> Who is that and why do they care about the train?


The acronym in question stands for "Citizens Against Rail Expansion". Basically, as far as I can tell, a bunch of NIMBYs.


----------



## Tokkyu40

Anderson said:


> Tokkyu40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The report was funded by CARE FL.
> 
> Who is that and why do they care about the train?
> 
> 
> 
> The acronym in question stands for "Citizens Against Rail Expansion". Basically, as far as I can tell, a bunch of NIMBYs.
Click to expand...

So you don't think they're neutral and unbiased? 

I wonder if they had the Reason Foundation create the numbers for them.


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## cirdan

This data is absolute tosh.

Amtrak is supposedly losing about 60 dollars per passenger (this is from memory, so correct me if I'm wrong).

This report is saying AAF will lose more than 200 dollars per passenger.

And this on a corridor with more favorable conditions than Amtrak's average, a densely populated corridor with lots of tourism, and using state-of-the-art equipment and high speeds?

Makes you wonder what they were smoking when they magicked those figures.


----------



## Paulus

The study predicts a loss from financial expenses with break even or small surplus operationally. That's about what I've always expected. What the study fails to do is look at revenue from the real estate associated with AAF. Bad form to ignore that in what is obviously a vertically integrated system, especially if those station construction costs are included in the capital budget.


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## Brian_tampa

Some very interesting and I think significant news. AAF has announced their intention to consider additional stops in Martin, St Lucie, and Indian River counties.

http://host.coxmediagroup.com/wpb/circulation/html/?s=all-aboard-florida-encouraging-exploration-of-more-stops.html

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-encouraging-exploration-of-more/nkJZm/#__federated=1

Quote:

All Aboard Florida is signaling its willingness to build additional stations between West Palm Beach and Orlando, offering to initiate ridership and environmental studies for communities that identify possible locations.

The move is markedly opposite statements made as recently as October when the company's president and chief development officer told the Northern Palm Beach County Chamber of Commerce that no new stops would be considered until the first phase of the express passenger rail project is completed in 2017.

But Russell Roberts, vice president of government affairs for All Aboard Florida, spoke Saturday during a special meeting of the Stuart City Commission, telling board members the Treasure Coast should consider a site analysis for a stop.

"This was contradictory to everything they've said in the past," said Stuart City Commissioner Troy McDonald, who spoke often with All Aboard Florida in his former position as mayor. "It is my belief at this time that we are not interested in negotiating a station, and I don't think the residents want us to do that."

In a statement released by the company Wednesday, Roberts said All Aboard Florida remains "open to future expansion opportunities." He pointed to the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization, which voted this month to work with the Canaveral Port Authority to find locations best suited for an All Aboard Florida stop in Brevard County.

"We support that vision and encourage the Treasure Coast to focus their resources on a similar process," Roberts said. "All Aboard Florida will work with communities that identify station locations by initiating a pre-development process, which will include analyzing ridership data and any necessary environmental studies."

An All Aboard Florida opposition group says the offer was made in reaction to last week's votes in Martin and Indian River Counties to pledge a combined $4.1 million to fight All Aboard Florida's plan to run 32 trains per day on the Florida East Coast Railway tracks.

While the project has received a mostly favorable response from areas in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, there is opposition in northern Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast, where trains will run at speeds up to 110 mph.

"The counties have now made a very big stand that they are opposed to All Aboard Florida and I think it wants to divide and conquer," said KC Traylor, a Palm City resident and founder of Florida Not All Aboard. "They want to cause a fracture, but at this point it would be committing political suicide to advocate for a station."

Mark Brechbill, a board member with the group Stuart Main Street, said All Aboard Florida could be devastating to downtown if the city doesn't get a stop, so he's open to hearing options for a station. Brechbill owns land east of the railroad tracks in downtown Stuart and plans to build a mixed-use development there.

"It's a shame in Martin County that it has become politically impossible to express any kind of positive feelings about All Aboard Florida," Brechbill said. "Most people see this as an economic disaster, but as a business person, I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion."

End quote.

It is my opinion that Tallahassee has pressured AAF into this. Remember that the state of Florida has so far refused to submit their comments on the draft EIS. The comments from various state agencies were due by the first week of December 2014. 3 months later, nothing. I now believe that this inaction was intentional. AAF needs those comments in order for the final EIS to be submitted and approved by the FRA. The PAB authorization (and RRIF loan application) that AAF is wanting is dependent on the final EIS being released. Also, the Treasure Coast has been raising a political ruckus. Gov Scott (and the Republican Party of Florida) do not need this opposition at this time.

My thoughts: Gov Scott and his administration have recently made a deal with AAF. If AAF reaches out to the counties that oppose AAF, then the state of FL will release the necessary comments on the EIS and continue to provide support and the approvals necessary for the project to move forward. I do not believe the U.S. DOT (FRA) is involved in this as they are more of a regulatory body that approves projects rather than get involved in local political dealing. The state of Florida can, however, make life very difficult for AAF at the local level.

This is such a big change in direction for AAF that I cannot think of anything else but government interference that would "persuade" them to reconsider their long standing position against additional stops. This definitely does not pass the smell test!

This is unfortunate, but perhaps a necessary reality.

The recently announced study for a stop in Brevard I believe is unrelated. That was probably a reward for Brevard approving the PAB authorization late last year. And maybe AAF sees more potential in Brevard anyways. The ever more popular cruise and cargo port at Canaveral could provide significant business for both AAF and FECR.


----------



## keelhauled

Brian_tampa said:


> Some very interesting and I think significant news. AAF has announced their intention to consider additional stops in Martin, St Lucie, and Indian River counties.
> 
> http://host.coxmediagroup.com/wpb/circulation/html/?s=all-aboard-florida-encouraging-exploration-of-more-stops.html
> 
> http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-encouraging-exploration-of-more/nkJZm/#__federated=1
> 
> Quote:
> 
> All Aboard Florida is signaling its willingness to build additional stations between West Palm Beach and Orlando, offering to initiate ridership and environmental studies for communities that identify possible locations.
> 
> The move is markedly opposite statements made as recently as October when the company's president and chief development officer told the Northern Palm Beach County Chamber of Commerce that no new stops would be considered until the first phase of the express passenger rail project is completed in 2017.
> 
> But Russell Roberts, vice president of government affairs for All Aboard Florida, spoke Saturday during a special meeting of the Stuart City Commission, telling board members the Treasure Coast should consider a site analysis for a stop.
> 
> "This was contradictory to everything they've said in the past," said Stuart City Commissioner Troy McDonald, who spoke often with All Aboard Florida in his former position as mayor. "It is my belief at this time that we are not interested in negotiating a station, and I don't think the residents want us to do that."
> 
> In a statement released by the company Wednesday, Roberts said All Aboard Florida remains "open to future expansion opportunities." He pointed to the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization, which voted this month to work with the Canaveral Port Authority to find locations best suited for an All Aboard Florida stop in Brevard County.
> 
> "We support that vision and encourage the Treasure Coast to focus their resources on a similar process," Roberts said. "All Aboard Florida will work with communities that identify station locations by initiating a pre-development process, which will include analyzing ridership data and any necessary environmental studies."
> 
> An All Aboard Florida opposition group says the offer was made in reaction to last week's votes in Martin and Indian River Counties to pledge a combined $4.1 million to fight All Aboard Florida's plan to run 32 trains per day on the Florida East Coast Railway tracks.
> 
> While the project has received a mostly favorable response from areas in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, there is opposition in northern Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast, where trains will run at speeds up to 110 mph.
> 
> "The counties have now made a very big stand that they are opposed to All Aboard Florida and I think it wants to divide and conquer," said KC Traylor, a Palm City resident and founder of Florida Not All Aboard. "They want to cause a fracture, but at this point it would be committing political suicide to advocate for a station."
> 
> Mark Brechbill, a board member with the group Stuart Main Street, said All Aboard Florida could be devastating to downtown if the city doesn't get a stop, so he's open to hearing options for a station. Brechbill owns land east of the railroad tracks in downtown Stuart and plans to build a mixed-use development there.
> 
> "It's a shame in Martin County that it has become politically impossible to express any kind of positive feelings about All Aboard Florida," Brechbill said. "Most people see this as an economic disaster, but as a business person, I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion."
> 
> End quote.
> 
> It is my opinion that Tallahassee has pressured AAF into this. Remember that the state of Florida has so far refused to submit their comments on the draft EIS. The comments from various state agencies were due by the first week of December 2014. 3 months later, nothing. I now believe that this inaction was intentional. AAF needs those comments in order for the final EIS to be submitted and approved by the FRA. The PAB authorization (and RRIF loan application) that AAF is wanting is dependent on the final EIS being released. Also, the Treasure Coast has been raising a political ruckus. Gov Scott (and the Republican Party of Florida) do not need this opposition at this time.
> 
> My thoughts: Gov Scott and his administration have recently made a deal with AAF. If AAF reaches out to the counties that oppose AAF, then the state of FL will release the necessary comments on the EIS and continue to provide support and the approvals necessary for the project to move forward. I do not believe the U.S. DOT (FRA) is involved in this as they are more of a regulatory body that approves projects rather than get involved in local political dealing. The state of Florida can, however, make life very difficult for AAF at the local level.
> 
> This is such a big change in direction for AAF that I cannot think of anything else but government interference that would "persuade" them to reconsider their long standing position against additional stops. This definitely does not pass the smell test!
> 
> This is unfortunate, but perhaps a necessary reality.
> 
> The recently announced study for a stop in Brevard I believe is unrelated. That was probably a reward for Brevard approving the PAB authorization late last year. And maybe AAF sees more potential in Brevard anyways. The ever more popular cruise and cargo port at Canaveral could provide significant business for both AAF and FECR.


----------



## keelhauled

I don't think its necessarily unfortunate. There's no reason for every train to make the added stops, if they even get built. If that is indeed what it gets to win the state's cooperation, then I think it's worth it. If the towns don't want stations, no change in plans. If they do, then just have some small subset of the total schedule make stops. The rest can keep going as planned. With 32 trains a day they have some scheduling flexibility.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Keelhauled,

I mean it is unfortunate that local politics have become involved in what is strictly a private endeavor. And if you know anything about the opposition in the counties mentioned, you would understand why I am not pleased that they are being given a chance to get a stop. They really do not deserve a stop now because of all the lies and BS they have spread over the past year. Why should they benefit from something they are trying to kill?

In a normal world, yes I do agree with you that only certain trains out of 32 each should stop and that would be a benefit. Please research the opposition and see the stuff they have been saying about AAF. I look at Martin and Indian River counties as being a threat to the rest of the state getting an alternative transportation mode. The treasure coast is 3% of the population of Florida. AAF will potentially expand to serve almost 50% of the state's population if they expand to Tampa and Jacksonville. Why should 3 small counties decide such a big issue such as this for the rest of the state?

Edit: the treasure coast counties have a combined population of about 600,000 people. The state of Florida total population is 19.9 million people.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> Keelhauled,
> 
> I mean it is unfortunate that local politics have become involved in what is strictly a private endeavor. And if you know anything about the opposition in the counties mentioned, you would understand why I am not pleased that they are being given a chance to get a stop. They really do not deserve a stop now because of all the lies and BS they have spread over the past year. Why should they benefit from something they are trying to kill?
> 
> In a normal world, yes I do agree with you that only certain trains out of 32 each should stop and that would be a benefit. Please research the opposition and see the stuff they have been saying about AAF. I look at Martin and Indian River counties as being a threat to the rest of the state getting an alternative transportation mode. The treasure coast is 3% of the population of Florida. AAF will potentially expand to serve almost 50% of the state's population if they expand to Tampa and Jacksonville. Why should 3 small counties decide such a big issue such as this for the rest of the state?
> 
> Edit: the treasure coast counties have a combined population of about 600,000 people. The state of Florida total population is 19.9 million people.


Do these counties have much leverage anyway? If AAF says they're going to run the service and the State of Florida says they can, isn't that good enough. They're not even having to do much eminent domain as they already own the tracks. Surely is a railroad owns operational tracks it is allowed to run trains on them. I don't see what the opposition can seriously do here apart from beat drums and make a lot oif noise.


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## Tokkyu40

Whether they deserve a stop or not, the fact is that if they have a large customer base, it would be good for the train to serve the market. Trains don't do well with long barren stretches of expense but no income.
A greater number of city pairs increases revenue exponentially at little extra expense. If they can get a favorable deal on a station location it would be good business to stop at the larger cities.


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## jis

I think AAF will find that they will have an opportunity to run both an Express skip stations service between Miami and Orlando, as well as a stopping service.

In Brevard County we would eventually be campaigning for two stops, one in north Brevard around Cocoa, and another in south Brevard around Melbourne by Rt 192 or thereabouts. For now figuring out and getting one stop, which will likely be the north one would be a good start.

I guess we will know where FCRP stands on such matters during their March 13 Annual Meeting in Winter Park. On the surface they appear to be too focused on Amtrak, to the exclusion of everything else (but I am hoping it is not so), but we'll see.

At the rate things are going in Amtrak LD land, it seems it will be a long time before any Amtrak comes down the east coast of Florida.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A new document out today that rebuts the assumptions made by the economist Friedman that CARE hired last month:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/documents/2015/mar/09/response-care-report-all-aboard-florida/#__federated=1

In this new memo, Louis Berger details their concerns about the false and erroneous assumptions that Friedman used in his economic study. Too bad AAF did not release this to the public back when they received it on February 20th. It would have helped them against the groups opposed to AAF.

I just don't understand why AAF has not challenged the extremely over-estimated capital expenditure costs ($3 billion for the total project including real estate vs actual $1.5 billion for only the rail infrastructure) that Friedman uses as the basis for his conclusion that AAF will not be able to meet its debt repayment obligations.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> A new document out today that rebuts the assumptions made by the economist Friedman that CARE hired last month:
> 
> http://www.palmbeachpost.com/documents/2015/mar/09/response-care-report-all-aboard-florida/#__federated=1
> 
> In this new memo, Louis Berger details their concerns about the false and erroneous assumptions that Friedman used in his economic study. Too bad AAF did not release this to the public back when they received it on February 20th. It would have helped them against the groups opposed to AAF.
> 
> I just don't understand why AAF has not challenged the extremely over-estimated capital expenditure costs ($3 billion for the total project including real estate vs actual $1.5 billion for only the rail infrastructure) that Friedman uses as the basis for his conclusion that AAF will not be able to meet its debt repayment obligations.


Probably because [A] trying to disentangle some of the train station projects would be tricky (at least _some_ of the station stuff is obviously attributable to the rail operation) and * the counter would be that AAF is assuming the debt for both the stations and the trackwork together, so they both impact AAF's viability (i.e. an overblown set of stations could, in theory, bankrupt AAF just as a number of bad real estate investments did a number on the Pennsy).*


----------



## jis

Or maybe they are just avoiding feeding the troll.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

jis said:


> Or maybe they are just avoiding feeding the troll.


I think that's exactly it, jis. AAF seems to exude a feeling of "We're set up to succeed, people, so please just deal with it."

(Amtrak could take some psychology lessons from them, but that's probably a whole other thread.)


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## Bus Nut

I think the sop to the counties is just trolling. These counties will not get their act together to get sites and approval for stations, and there isn't much of a business case. AAF is smart to say this (now that bypassing them for the short term is baked in the cake) and let them duke it out amongst themselves. It's clear from the news article that opponents perceive it's a trick, but there's not much they can do about it.

I have mixed feelings about Brevard. Their record on public transit isn't great. However, it would be mutually beneficial to put an AAF stop there. Brevard has some tourist attractions, especially Kennedy Space Center on Merritt Island which isn't very far from downtown Cocoa. Plus, I think I've heard something about access to cruise ships. Anyway, it makes sense for AAF and I think Brevard sees dollar signs so maybe they will get their stuff together on this one.

Tampa? Please. AAF is not going to pay for that. I think they jawbone it so there will be political pressure for the state to spend money and seek fed grants again. Remember, the original price tag was *one billion* for EIS and engineering. If it EVER happens it will be PPP (public-private partnership).

I think Jax will happen if Orlando-Miami is more successful than planned. That would bump up the economics of going to Jax for them. If AAF phase one is only mildly profitable it doesn't make much sense for them to do Jax, IMO.

I think AAF phase I will be very successful although it might take a couple of years to see its true potential as business travelers switch away from in-state flights and bus companies start funneling customers in (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em--bus companies helped kill FOX years ago, very short sighted of them as bus co's in NEC territory make more money than the ones in Florida, I guarantee it).


----------



## Anderson

On the withheld comments: I was under the impression that if the comments aren't delivered, it doesn't delay the process...the state just technically doesn't get to say anything in the process (hence why it was such a passive occasion when it happened; moreover, IIRC nobody at the state level indicated that the delay was intentional). The ability of a state or other entity to delay (or even completely stop) a project by simply not issuing a comment seems like an awfully passive-aggressive ability even by the dysfunctional standards of the EIS process.

Also, goofy stalls like this seem all too common and I'm not putting much stock in the delay as being related to the missed comment periods. VA has a similar stall insofar as there's a long delay in producing a scoping report on the Richmond-Washington project. FEC may be taking a slightly more "casual" approach here since they're chugging away down in South Florida.

As to Jax and additional stops, I think the business case is there for both. On the additional stops:
-If FEC can grab, say, 20 acres (or allocate the land from existing services) for a station somewhere, there's a case behind the station as TOD. That should pay for the stations themselves. As to the case for making the stops, at a bare minimum there's a case for traffic to/from OIA (and per the studies we've seen, there's space on the trains heading into Orlando to take advantage of for that traffic. I ran a quick check on car rental prices, and you save about $100 for a one-week not-paid-in-advance rental with Hertz by renting in Cocoa as opposed to renting at OIA (the airport taxes and fees on a one-week rental come to $80-100 at OIA vs. $35-40 at Cocoa), so if you're flying into OIA and then going to somewhere on the coast, taking the train out and picking up a car makes certain sense.

-More to the point, all of the signals that I saw before were that AAF didn't want to add stops to the plan lest the EIS get delayed by those changes. The fact that in their fights with Tri-Rail they specifically wanted to have the right to add more stops in South Florida (I think they wanted the ability to add at least three more) speaks to them reserving the ability to run a stopping service as well, as does their similarly-indicated reservation of the ability to add a lot more trains from Miami to West Palm Beach.

-And then there's the commuter service wrinkle itself...if FEC /does/ get some sort of commuter line going in South Florida (be it a Tri-Rail contract or something they run on their own), I think you could plausibly see them extend a limited version of the service further north if the local governments are interested. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the infrastructure is effectively all there you probably have nothing stopping you from extending a handful of trains that would terminate around West Palm up to Cocoa (I don't think that would even need an EIS).

On Jax:
-The main reason this isn't already happening is the debt load involved with getting into Orlando. I'm not sure how much they'd need to shell out for JAX-Cocoa, but it can't be anywhere near what's needed for the Cocoa-Orlando segment (which is, I believe, the bulk of the cost with AAF). AAF has already set up a company to start pursuing this ("AAF Jacksonville Segment LLC") and there's been a rights agreement put in place.

-The question is what they deem necessry to make the connection happen. Basic class 5 track shouldn't be too horridly expensive in the scheme of things...presumably they'll already have to put in PTC (albeit with some of the costs shifted to the AAF entity involved), but aside from double-tracking parts of the line (maybe not the entire line, even) the costs here should be at least controllable.

On Tampa:
-I tend to agree that AAF isn't likely to go out-of-pocket here anytime soon. At a bare minimum they'll want to discharge most of the debt load from Orlando and/or Jacksonville first (shelling out $1bn in real dollars is plausible once those debts are gone). As such, Tampa is likely to be some sort of PPP...I could see the HSR project being mostly resurrected, but with AAF as the operator (and also with a large existing network to plug into and potentially, the ability to possibly re-route Amtrak's trains in some manner, and the ability to possibly expand some segments somewhere).

Also...what was FOX?

Hertz OIA:
Compact: $305.00/$400.88 or $213.50/$291.26
Standard: $326.00/$426.03 or $228.20/$308.86

Hertz Cocoa:
Compact: $263.00/$303.12 or $223.55/$260.16
Full Size: $293.00/$335.79 or $249.05/$287.92

Format is [base rate/with taxes and fees]


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## chrsjrcj

Today was the first time I saw work being done at the West Palm Beach site, since the demolition of the Sewells Hardware building. Workers removed the Evernia Street crossing today, and it looks like they're set up to remove the Datura Street crossing tomorrow. As far as some NIMBY claims that traffic would get worse on Clematis and Quadrille after the closing of the crossings earlier this year, that appears to be false. I've noticed absolutely no change in traffic conditions. These streets were very seldom used to begin with.


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## Caesar La Rock

GE is getting involved with All Aboard Florida too.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/04/4-things-ge-transportation-is-designing-in-c-fla.html?page=all


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## VentureForth

So what's the plan for these guys? Are they going to offer "High Speed Service" from Miami ALL the WAY to West Palm Beach, then open non-stop service from WPB to Orlando sometime in the next two years?

They should at least get a stop in Cocoa and run to there until they get the ROW built between Cocoa Beach and Orlando.

But everything indicates Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm, and Orlando being the only stops. Ever.

Finally, I think it's dumb to terminate at an airport. Airports should be served by light rail. MCO has no decent infrastructure other than a single city bus and scores of expensive rental cars for transportation out of the airport. Why not fly into Orlando instead?

I'm all for private rail. I'm all about All Aboard Florida. I just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## chrsjrcj

They announced that they are working with Brevard County to add a stop after the WPB to Orlando phase is complete. Most likely because Brevard County has been mostly supportive of the project since day one.

Meanwhile, they told Treasure Coast counties that they were willing to add a stop if they worked together, but unfortunately their residents don't care and are very misinformed regarding the project.

As far as speeds, it has always been 79 mph Miami to WPB, 110 mph WPB to Cocoa, and 110-125 mph (grade separated) Cocoa to OIA. As far as I know, nothing has changed.


----------



## jis

That is correct.


----------



## VentureForth

chrsjrcj said:


> They announced that they are working with Brevard County to add a stop after the WPB to Orlando phase is complete. Most likely because Brevard County has been mostly supportive of the project since day one.
> 
> Meanwhile, they told Treasure Coast counties that they were willing to add a stop if they worked together, but unfortunately their residents don't care and are very misinformed regarding the project.
> 
> As far as speeds, it has always been 79 mph Miami to WPB, 110 mph WPB to Cocoa, and 110-125 mph (grade separated) Cocoa to OIA. As far as I know, nothing has changed.


I suppose my point is that the opening phase is very non-dramatic - just a Tri-Rail 2. I guess my question is, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to get the rail all the way up to Cocoa (all just ROW rework) and get real, new service up fast, then phase 2 would be from Cocoa to Orlando? Maybe it wouldn't make more sense, hence the question.

As for the speed, according to the FAQs on the AAF website, they will make the 235 mile trip in 3 hours. That's an average speed of 79 mph, which doesn't seem great if your two longest legs (with or especially without stops) have maximum speeds way above that.

I'm not complaining - just trying to understand. This will still be a huge improvement over the current Silvers' schedules.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> As for the speed, according to the FAQs on the AAF website, they will make the 235 mile trip in 3 hours. That's an average speed of 79 mph, which doesn't seem great if your two longest legs (with or especially without stops) have maximum speeds way above that.


It's also a question of as fast as necessary versus as fast as possible. Seeing this is a private corporation investing private money and expecting returns, they are weighing every dollar spent against the increased revenue that dollar will deliver, and if that benefit is not there, the dollar doesn't get invested.

The line will still be single track in many places as far as I am aware. Furthermore, the ROW will be shared with freights and Tri Rail. A lot of that can be disentangled with good planning and scheduling and good timekeeping. But we don't live in a perfect world. I expect recovery time is also being factored in.

To me the 79mph average actually sound optimistic. Acela does less than that.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> I suppose my point is that the opening phase is very non-dramatic - just a Tri-Rail 2. I guess my question is, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to get the rail all the way up to Cocoa (all just ROW rework) and get real, new service up fast, then phase 2 would be from Cocoa to Orlando? Maybe it wouldn't make more sense, hence the question.
> 
> As for the speed, according to the FAQs on the AAF website, they will make the 235 mile trip in 3 hours. That's an average speed of 79 mph, which doesn't seem great if your two longest legs (with or especially without stops) have maximum speeds way above that.
> 
> I'm not complaining - just trying to understand. This will still be a huge improvement over the current Silvers' schedules.


The segmentation of the project has to do with timing of available funding and permits. Upto West Palm Beach is easier to do since the permits and funding were already in place.

Initially there is going to be no station in Cocoa, so it is impossible to terminate a service in Cocoa. The funding for the WPB to Orlando depends on getting approval to get the private activity bonding authority, which is imminent. Once the funding is secured construction can begin.

Cocoa was not included in the first round because it adds an additional complication in the negotiation with the Central Florida Expressway Authority regarding protection of toll revenues on 528 Tollway where its toll income which is used to guarantee the bond payments gets affected by introduction of rail service from Orlando to the Space Coast. A small tax on a ticket between Orlando and Space Coast has to be negotiated to make the Expressway Authority whole. AAF chose to postpone that complication to after the basic service between Orlando and Miami is in place.

After service begins to Orlando a station is likely to be added at a suitable location in Brevard County. The process for selecting a location for such has been started by the County in collaboration with AAF. This is also when the toll related tx on the Space Coast ticket will be agreed upon. It is likely to be somewhere between $1 and $1.50 or so per ticket is the current guess, based on the fact that the toll on two axle vehicle for one way between Orlando Airport and the eastern end of the tollway is $2.

The railroad between Maimi and Cocoa will be substantially double track, except for single track across a few movable bridges. The MAS will be mostly 110mph with several short segments of 80 and 90mph curves between WPB and Cocoa. The E-W segment between Cocoa and Orlando will have some double track and some single track. This segment will just need to support two to four tph, so is quite manageable with substantial single track. The MAS on a large portion of this segment will be 125mph. I don't see any problem meeting the projected 79mph average speed. notice the portion where there is going to be any freight interference is mostly double track with many passing sidings. So once the train departs north from WPB it should be able to sustain 110mph and 125 mph over long distances. So I don't believe 79mph is optimistic at all. These trains will face virtually no congestion interference compared to what Acelas face, and will have more sustained high speed running than Acelas manage, specially north of New York.

Any interference with Tri Rail is in the future and as part of that project there will be addition of a third track on substantial segments between Miami and WPB. At present there is no and will be no Tri-Rail service on FEC. That requires an additional EIS and the works, together with requisite funding for enhancing the infrastructure to support such.


----------



## chrsjrcj

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/gallery/business/slideshow-all-aboard-florida-presentation-florida-/gCSHy/#7143904

Slide 16 has the travel times.

*Miami to Fort Lauderdale*- 25 miles in 30 minutes (50 mph average speed)

*Miami to West Palm Beach*- 67 miles in 60 minutes (67 mph average speed). This one is a bit weird because that means Ft. Lauderdale to WPB is 42 miles in 30 minutes which is an 84 mph average speed, higher than the 79 MAS. I wonder if they plan on running direct Miami to West Palm Beach trains?

*West Palm Beach to Orlando*- 165 miles in 120 minutes (82.5 mph average speed)

*Miami to Orlando*- 235 miles in 180 minutes (78.3 mph average speed)


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> The railroad between Maimi and Cocoa will be substantially double track, except for single track across a few movable bridges.


They could eliminate the bridges by dredging the water channels below them so the water goes along at its present level then drops under where the bridge was so taller boats can navigate then slowly rises after the bridge. :giggle: :giggle:


----------



## Tokkyu40

me_little_me said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The railroad between Maimi and Cocoa will be substantially double track, except for single track across a few movable bridges.
> 
> 
> 
> They could eliminate the bridges by dredging the water channels below them so the water goes along at its present level then drops under where the bridge was so taller boats can navigate then slowly rises after the bridge. :giggle: :giggle:
Click to expand...

Proof that humor is not dead. Just wounded.

Any bets on whether people will think that's a good idea?


----------



## VentureForth

Looks like former American Airlines CEO Robert Crandall is on the Anti-AAF bandwagon:

https://www.citizensagainstthetrain.com/content/politicians-who-support-all-aboard-florida-will-pay-price-citizens-will-remember#.VT-DGHtSVoE

Incidentally, I find it hilarious that the website for CARE opens with a slide of a DRAWBRIDGE opening over the Intracoastal Waterway. Those are SO much slower and back up traffic FAR worse than a train doing 79 MPH.

Meanwhile, it looks like Indian River, St. Lucie and Martin counties will not benefit from economic impact from AAF because they are suing against it. I wouldn't put a station there against such opposition.

In a separate Mason Dixon poll, here's an interesting question:



> QUESTION: Have you ever been delayed either in your vehicle or boat for 10 minutes or more as a result of rail traffic?
> 
> YES 67%
> 
> NO 32%
> 
> NOT SURE 1%


Don't they realize that the infrastructure improvement will decrease dwell times for freight, while passenger train waits are often less than a traffic light?

Sounds like they polled a bunch of low information individuals.


----------



## jis

They should have also asked, "Have you ever been delayed 10 minutes or more by a drawbridge?"

Additionally they should have asked "On a typical ride from home to work how many minutes are you delayed by traffic lights?"

I suspect those three counties are pretty low on the totem pole for getting a station anytime soon. Afterall, they have to engage and decide on station locations and partially fund the stations. If they spend all their money on fattening the pockets of their lawyers they are unlikely to have any money left to do anything constructive.

My guess is that before they get a station Brevard will get two stations, the second one of course in conjunction of service between Miami and Cocoa and then onto JAX.


----------



## Paulus

"Debt of All Aboard Florida, the company owned by Fortress private-equity funds that’s building the project, has lost more than 7 percent of its market value since it was issued in June"


----------



## Anderson

Considering that at the time it was over 100, the drop isn't too shocking. I'm also not surprised that there's volatility...this is likely a rather thinly-traded commodity.

Edit: There's also quite a bit of "headline risk" with all of the lawsuits flying around, and I'm going to bet that said risk/lawsuits accounts for the risk (and, frankly, a good portion of the high bond rate). In-kind payment dilution probably isn't helping, either.

Edit 2: Some of the lawsuits are borderline risible. The one from the "Old Vero Ice Age Sites Committee" should be swatted aside fairly easily (the project has such a limited impact in terms of acreage (and being almost entirely on old ROW to boot...and this isn't Hawaii, either)) that the consultation was probably unnecessary) and the EIS one should be handled by the FONSI...but good grief, I'd love to see them forced to pay Fortress' costs.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> My guess is that before they get a station Brevard will get two stations, the second one of course in conjunction of service between Miami and Cocoa and then onto JAX.


Now that we're playing in the sandbox, if they opened a station in Cocoa and Daytona, do you think that travel to JAX from ORL would be competitive to Amtrak? It would seem inefficient to go ORL-COC-DAY-JAX, and it would be even less popular if you had to change trains in COC.

There is so much potential out there. After going to Lakeland last week (by car) the traffic on I-4 hasn't gotten any better since I lived in the area 20 years ago. They NEED rail between ORL and Tampa.


----------



## MikefromCrete

VentureForth said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that before they get a station Brevard will get two stations, the second one of course in conjunction of service between Miami and Cocoa and then onto JAX.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we're playing in the sandbox, if they opened a station in Cocoa and Daytona, do you think that travel to JAX from ORL would be competitive to Amtrak? It would seem inefficient to go ORL-COC-DAY-JAX, and it would be even less popular if you had to change trains in COC.
> 
> There is so much potential out there. After going to Lakeland last week (by car) the traffic on I-4 hasn't gotten any better since I lived in the area 20 years ago. They NEED rail between ORL and Tampa.
Click to expand...

Could be close to having it by now, except for the governor's rejection of a high speed route as part of the Republicans' rejection of President Obama's high speed plans (also see Wisconsin and Ohio) because....oh yeah, because the Republicans didn't want to see Obama succeed at anything.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that before they get a station Brevard will get two stations, the second one of course in conjunction of service between Miami and Cocoa and then onto JAX.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we're playing in the sandbox, if they opened a station in Cocoa and Daytona, do you think that travel to JAX from ORL would be competitive to Amtrak? It would seem inefficient to go ORL-COC-DAY-JAX, and it would be even less popular if you had to change trains in COC.
Click to expand...

As things stand there are two possibilities..... both requiring additional construction beyond just stations. And there is an issue about construction of a station too.

1. If run via Cocoa, then a northbound connection has to be built at Cocoa, which is not part of any plan that I am aware of. Also the proposed Brevard County station location, all the ones being considered are south of the junction with FEC. So anything going north from the Orlando link via this hypothetical northbound link would miss that station.

2. There is considerable demand from Volusia County to extend Sunrail to Daytona over a new ROW which is yet to be found (perhaps substantially along the ROW of I-4). If that happens than a service from Orlando International/Sandlake Rd to Daytona via Sanford and then onto JAX would be possible.

However, so far FEC or AAF have not mentioned anything about Orlando to JAX service. They have talked about Miami to JAX service. So it is likely at present that the only northward service they are thinking of involves a change of trains somewhere in Brevard County, and that may be one of the reasons that they are more eager to get a station in place in Brevard County than anywhere else as a first step after the basic service goes on line.

Having said that, if FEC chooses to upgrade their line from Cocoa to JAX to the same standard as what they are doing between WPB and Cocoa, then possibly even going via Brevard with a train change, it might take less time to get to JAX from Orlando International than taking the Amtrak route.

Let me add that at present all this is very hypothetical. The only thing that is likely to happen in the next 10 years is the Miami to JAX service on the FEC.



> There is so much potential out there. After going to Lakeland last week (by car) the traffic on I-4 hasn't gotten any better since I lived in the area 20 years ago. They NEED rail between ORL and Tampa.


That may or may ot happen depending on how the core service to Orlando plays out. AAF has talked about the possibility at times, but that's about it for now.


----------



## xyzzy

Anyone buying AAF-related debt, either the bonds already issued or the bonds to come, knows the risk. Or should know. Heaven help us if this debt is being peddled to "widows and dentists" as Gordon Gekko put it.


----------



## Anderson

As far as I can tell, almost all of the sales were institutional sales. Lord only knows that I actually asked my broker to find out if any were for sale and he couldn't find any.


----------



## me_little_me

VentureForth said:


> Looks like former American Airlines CEO Robert Crandall is on the Anti-AAF bandwagon:
> 
> https://www.citizensagainstthetrain.com/content/politicians-who-support-all-aboard-florida-will-pay-price-citizens-will-remember#.VT-DGHtSVoE
> 
> Incidentally, I find it hilarious that the website for CARE opens with a slide of a DRAWBRIDGE opening over the Intracoastal Waterway. Those are SO much slower and back up traffic FAR worse than a train doing 79 MPH.
> 
> Meanwhile, it looks like Indian River, St. Lucie and Martin counties will not benefit from economic impact from AAF because they are suing against it. I wouldn't put a station there against such opposition.
> 
> In a separate Mason Dixon poll, here's an interesting question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUESTION: Have you ever been delayed either in your vehicle or boat for 10 minutes or more as a result of rail traffic?
> 
> YES 67%
> 
> NO 32%
> 
> NOT SURE 1%
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they realize that the infrastructure improvement will decrease dwell times for freight, while passenger train waits are often less than a traffic light?
> 
> Sounds like they polled a bunch of low information individuals.
Click to expand...

I'll bet few of them actually waited 10 minutes. Most people dramatically overguess their wait time at lights and crossings.

I was directing traffic for the local sheriff's office and after one woman was forced to wait about 30 seconds to go, she complained she had waited five minutes. I was letting traffic out of an event and giving them priority because of the number of vehicles and the small amount of traffic on the main road. At the time, she was the only person. I would check my watch and insure that nobody on the main road would have to wait longer than that before I would allow man road traffic and stop the exit traffic.

At 10mph, a mile long train crosses a point in 6 minutes.


----------



## afigg

me_little_me said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The railroad between Maimi and Cocoa will be substantially double track, except for single track across a few movable bridges.
> 
> 
> 
> They could eliminate the bridges by dredging the water channels below them so the water goes along at its present level then drops under where the bridge was so taller boats can navigate then slowly rises after the bridge. :giggle: :giggle:
Click to expand...

Actually, there is a Dutch proposed design to build a tilting sluice lock type system under bridges to provide a few meters of additional clearance for sailboats and ships. See Ingenious new sluice uses tilting action to avoid slow cycling of water for renderings and a video. Yes, it is ingenious, but strikes me as rather expensive to build and also expensive to maintain over the long term. But, if the boating community along the AAF route is upset about the issue of not being able to open the movable bridges whenever they want to, someone could pass this on as a possible solution. One they or Florida would have to pay for, not AAF. (saw this link on railroad.net).


----------



## Alex M.

Since these bridges seem to have some age to them, How soon would they need to be replaced?


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## Ryan

Fancy infrastructure not needed:


----------



## Palmetto

Hilarious!!


----------



## jis

Alex M. said:


> Since these bridges seem to have some age to them, How soon would they need to be replaced?


Just because a bridge is old does not mean it has to be replaced. it can be overhauled and made to be pretty close to new with proper maintenance.


----------



## chrsjrcj

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/05/04/all-aboard-florida-construction-to-close-some-roads-in-downtown-wpb/

Road closures in downtown West Palm Beach. I wonder if they are adding the second track because 3rd street is north of where the proposed station site is supposed to be, and is the last railroad crossing before AAF's proposed layover facility. I imagine the real PITA will be doing the Okeechobee crossing, since it's probably the busiest road in Palm Beach County (other than I-95). Fortunately there are two crossings for Okeechobee (eastbound and westbound) with side streets connecting both, so it shouldn't be too bad of a mess.


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## chrsjrcj

According to David Shelley (longtime FEC hogger) on the FEC Yahoo Group, AAF sent a work train from West Palm Beach to Hialeah to take rails north. The train number was AF1-07.

I guess that may answer the question about whether the road closures involved adding a second (third?*) track.

*I believe the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach stations will be triple tracked, so freight trains can bypass the high level platforms.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> *I believe the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach stations will be triple tracked, so freight trains can bypass the high level platforms.


That is correct. All passenger stations on the FEC will have at least one bypass track for freight.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Not my video. Apparently the rear of the train is part of the AAF work train. Did see part of it blocking the Banyan Street crossing this afternoon. They dropped off a section of track next to Hibiscus Street for what I assume will become the second main line.


----------



## Anderson

Out of curiosity, does anyone recall if the FEC ROW is wide enough to be mostly quad-tracked? I know there was double-tracking on most of it and I know Flagler was pretty good at planning for capacity needs, but there was enough variation in practice that I can't recall if they kept enough space to quad-track Miami-West Palm Beach (which is going to be necessary if you get tons of AAF trains running alongside a Tri-Rail operation).


----------



## jis

Current plans are for three tracks, not four. Three tracks with passing sidings at major stations should be quite sufficient with an adequately capable signaling system and some judicious time tabling, for running 16tph in each direction with a few freights mixed in during low traffic hours. A time when more throughput than that would be required is quite far away by all reckoning, specially if 10 or 12 car trains are used.

Just to provide some perspective for the time being AAF is talking of between 1 and 2 tph. Tri Rail at most might throw in 4tph only during the max rush hour. FEC freight traffic is less than 1tph.


----------



## Alex M.

I read where FEC plans to run freights over the Tri Rail line (formally CSX ) up to West Palm Beach. Are there any plans, stated or otherwise, for FEC to partner with CSX to route freight to the CSX terminal at Winter Haven?


----------



## jphjaxfl

Alex M. said:


> I read where FEC plans to run freights over the Tri Rail line (formally CSX ) up to West Palm Beach. Are there any plans, stated or otherwise, for FEC to partner with CSX to route freight to the CSX terminal at Winter Haven?


Florida East Coast has no need to run freight trains on the CSX and I doubt very seriously CSX would allow that as they are fierce competitors. I have friends that work for both Railroads here in Jacksonville and they had a good laugh about running over each others lines.


----------



## cirdan

Furthermore, I think the bottleneck to more capacity is not necessarily going to be the line itself but the terminus at Miami.

If FEC and TriRail get two station tracks in Miami each as is currently planned, that puts a cap on the number of trains you can turn in an hour.

I don't know if FEC are planning to clean and re-stock trains while standing in the station (which would block them there for a while, and prevent other trains from using that track) or run them to some nearby facility (which would further comsume track capacity) but either way you're not going to be turning trains very quickly.

Maybe Trirail can turn trains more quickly as they do not need to be cleaned or re-stocked after every turn. But even so you need some buffer in the waiting time to recover from delays etc. You also need some place you can hold a train that is failed, damaged or otherwise unfit for service.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I believe the current plan is for Tri-Rail to run every other train to downtown. So about every hour during rush hour and every two hours during off peak/weekend. Not ideal, but better than nothing.


----------



## VentureForth

What is all this chatter about Tri Rail running on FEC nonsense? The CSX tracks are, on average, about 1 mile apart from the FEC tracks and run parallel almost the entire distance from WPB to Miami. There are no connections between the CSX tracks and the FEC. Why would Tri Rail want to build redundant facilities?

The entire beauty of AAF is that A) It isn't Amtrak and B) It isn't Tri Rail.


----------



## Palmetto

VentureForth said:


> What is all this chatter about Tri Rail running on FEC nonsense? The CSX tracks are, on average, about 1 mile apart from the FEC tracks and run parallel almost the entire distance from WPB to Miami. There are no connections between the CSX tracks and the FEC. Why would Tri Rail want to build redundant facilities?
> 
> The entire beauty of AAF is that A) It isn't Amtrak and B) It isn't Tri Rail.


Nonsense? It's not fantasy. Take a look:

http://tri-railcoastallink.com/

or

http://www.tri-railcoastallinkstudy.com/about.php

And there IS a planned connection between the current Tri Rail ROW and the FEC at Iris interlocking.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The Northwood connection in West Palm Beach is set to get upgraded later this year. This will mainly be for freight but could potentially allow Tri-Rail to serve Jupiter and maybe beyond (where CSX doesn't come close). The Iris crossover will have a connection for freight and Tri-Rail. Right now downtown Miami is a 30+ minute metrorail ride from Tri-Rail. It makes a whole lot of sense for commuter trains to go downtown (where most people work).

As far as AAF construction, work is under way for the second track in downtown West Palm Beach. Interestingly, it will be on the east side of the existing FEC rails. Right now there is a siding that starts just north of downtown, but that is on the west side of the main line.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The only good thing about the current Tri-Rail route is that it's close to the 3 major airports in S. Florida (though the FEC route is close to FLL). There is TOD around Boca and Cypress Creek stations, but outside of that there is a lot more to gain using the FEC line.

A couple of years ago when the federal grants were announced for the Northwood and Iris connections, I read that the FEC would use the Tri-Rail tracks (no longer CSX, they don't even dispatch it anymore) so Tri-Rail could use the FEC tracks. Not a bad idea.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is all this chatter about Tri Rail running on FEC nonsense? The CSX tracks are, on average, about 1 mile apart from the FEC tracks and run parallel almost the entire distance from WPB to Miami. There are no connections between the CSX tracks and the FEC. Why would Tri Rail want to build redundant facilities?
> 
> The entire beauty of AAF is that A) It isn't Amtrak and B) It isn't Tri Rail.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense? It's not fantasy. Take a look:
> 
> http://tri-railcoastallink.com/
> 
> or
> 
> http://www.tri-railcoastallinkstudy.com/about.php
> 
> And there IS a planned connection between the current Tri Rail ROW and the FEC at Iris interlocking.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are definite plans for (a) running TriRail trains from the current TriRail line to Miami Central Station, and (b) in the future, run TriRail service on FEC between Miami Central and West Palm Beach (at least, and perhaps further north too. S

o no, it is not nonsense. Just ignorance on the part of a few.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Maybe Trirail can turn trains more quickly as they do not need to be cleaned or re-stocked after every turn. But even so you need some buffer in the waiting time to recover from delays etc. You also need some place you can hold a train that is failed, damaged or otherwise unfit for service.


When planning the ARC stub end station under 34th St, NJT used 10 minutes as the time needed to turn a train and get it out of there in rush hours to hit the 24tph figure. many of the turned trains would have gone out empty so that turnaround could be even shorter than 10 mins. But on an average they assumed 10 mins. That would be 6 per platform track, or 12 tph in case of Miami Central for TriRail.


----------



## chrsjrcj

If anyone is interested, I've been trying to document some of the major construction milestones for AAF in Palm Beach County. I work very close to the future station site, so I'm pretty much at ground zero. Before I went into work this morning, they started tearing up Hibiscus Street. When I left work, they had the second track installed. I'll try to post a video that has a few short clips of the construction work, probably by Wednesday.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1176011182414062.1073741835.100000155733512&type=1&l=f3fe4ef9d7


----------



## Brian_tampa

@chrsjrcj

I believe that the new track is actually the freight bypass track to be installed east of the new platform. It makes sense to install this first as that clears the original track for long closure periods while the platform and station are being built. There is plenty of room west of the existing track to accommodate the new mainline track. Like you mentioned, the siding north of downtown is west of the existing track. It appears the original second track was in this alignment as well. I believe the AAF website (or was it the city of WPB?) has posted detailed general arrangement drawings showing the relative placement of structures, roads, and tracks in the ROW near the WPB station.

Or I could be wrong and the freight bypass track is much shorter than I thought and not part of the construction pictured. Not sure why AAF wouldn't install both new tracks at the same time? Maybe two short closures approved versus a longer one that the city wasn't agreeable with is why?

As was posted before, I too am also looking forward to how okeechobee blvd is handled! What a nightmare that will be!

By the way, I work in Boynton beach near the tracks on a project there and was told by AAF recently that double tracking in that area would commence around July.

Definitely keep the photos coming! I haven't been up in downtown WPB in several weeks and already there is a lot of construction that wasn't there just 3 weeks ago.


----------



## chrsjrcj

AAF's website has the station renderings. http://www.allaboardflorida.com/stations/west-palm-beach

If that image is still correct, it's 3 tracks (two station tracks plus the freight bypass) at least just before Fern Street. I guess we'll see next week if Gardenia Street has 3 or 2 tracks. I was driving over 3rd Street (last crossing in downtown heading north) on Sunday, and noticed that some shrubs had been cleared out on the far eastern side of the FEC ROW. I almost wonder if they're doing a track realignment for that curve. I'll try to get a better look tomorrow. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> AAF's website has the station renderings. http://www.allaboardflorida.com/stations/west-palm-beach
> 
> If that image is still correct, it's 3 tracks (two station tracks plus the freight bypass) at least just before Fern Street. I guess we'll see next week if Gardenia Street has 3 or 2 tracks. I was driving over 3rd Street (last crossing in downtown heading north) on Sunday, and noticed that some shrubs had been cleared out on the far eastern side of the FEC ROW. I almost wonder if they're doing a track realignment for that curve. I'll try to get a better look tomorrow. Time will tell I guess.


That's an interesting rendering. A really good find!

It is also interesting that the explanatory text mentions Flageler's vision. It's good to see corporations show awareness of their history.

I wonder how many original Flageler-era station buildings survive, and whether there is any possibility that any will be restored to their intended use rather than being replace dby new builds.


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> I believe the current plan is for Tri-Rail to run every other train to downtown. So about every hour during rush hour and every two hours during off peak/weekend. Not ideal, but better than nothing.


My understanding is that Tri-Rail intends to set up a more complicated tangle of service...but (per mentions of doubling ridership or more abound) you'd add a _lot_ of trains to the mix. About half of the trains originating up in Magonia Park or thereabouts would run to downtown, but there's another "line" that originates at Pompano that would also run on the current tracks. Additionally, those trains being redirected into downtown are on a third "line" originating further north (up in Jupiter), which probably means a few more trains there as well. And all of this is aside from the FEC-only trains running from WPB down to Miami.

If the ridership projections in the 2011 report are anything to go by, what you have is as follows:

-FEC Local (Magonia Park to Downtown) 4 TPH peak/2 TPH off-peak

-Seaboard Flyer (present service) 1 TPH peak/1 train every two hours off-peak

-Flagler Flyer (Jupiter to Downtown) 4 TPH peak/2 TPH off-peak

-Airport Flyer (the Pompano-originating service) 4 TPH peak/2 TPH off-peak

So in total, downtown would see 8 TPH peak/4 TPH off-peak while the airport would see 5 and 2.5. If the plan were to stick, it seems quite plausible that FEC would push to add Pompano to their system (at a bare minimum, since that station would serve all three high-frequency lines and be sending out Tri-Rail trains every 5 minutes at peaks...the transfer ridership from the Airport Flyer and the local stopping trains would probably be substantial), especially since AAF wants to reserve the right to add stops in South Florida. Considering the sheer amount of time the trains will take from end-to-end compared to AAF, I suspect that you'll see a lot of transfer traffic feeding in...particularly around WPB.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

On train counts, those TPH numbers would probably work for Tri-Rail. With AAF, a lot depends on where they handle the servicing. Also, while AAF is saying "hourly service", if their numbers are any indication there are strong hints of planning for up to four AAF trains per hour: First, their ridership projections don't quite work with once-an-hour service (I ran the numbers a while back and you couldn't jam enough people onto their trains for the numbers to fit, especially south of WPB). Second, they've explicitly wanted to plan with Tri-Rail for up to 64 trains per day. Third/finally, they seem strongly inclined towards adding Jacksonville in reasonable order (doing so is probably cheaper than Orlando is, even if ridership is lower) and adding JAX would inherently add pax (yeah, I couldn't resist)...and with it, more trains.

So my guess is that, assuming all of this holds, AAF+Tri-Rail would probably be looking at 10-12 total TPH into Miami Central Station down the line. Tri-Rail's 8 TPH should be fine on two tracks as long as the track layout works well to avoid bottlenecks into/out of the station (I'll grant them this much). AAF is the more complicated customer, depending on how AAF wants to handle restocking and how long they want to be able to have the train in the station for people to board in advance. Additionally, if they service the trains elsewhere, that means additional movements in and out of the station.

However, I suspect this much traffic is probably going to mean that a few stations (Pompano comes to mind) will need to go to 5 tracks (I'm thinking two north, two south, and one through track without a platform for freight). I don't think you'd need more anywhere but Pompano (where the turns of the Airport Flyer become an issue...there you have 8 Tri-Rail trains running through, 4 terminating and turning, and then AAF doing...whatever AAF chooses to).

Edit: There appears to be a third connector track in Miami in the plans, albeit without much stated use...so it is quite possible that _another_ "line" might come into use (probably Magonia-Downtown via CSX almost all the way).


----------



## Alex M.

If successful, both ridership and financially, what would be the likelihood of AAF taking over Tri-Rail operations?


----------



## jis

Alex M. said:


> If successful, both ridership and financially, what would be the likelihood of AAF taking over Tri-Rail operations?


Very low to none. At least that is the impression I got talking to the AAF folks the last time I talked to them. They really do not want to be in the business of running anything other than their own higher speed service(s).


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Alex M. said:
> 
> 
> 
> If successful, both ridership and financially, what would be the likelihood of AAF taking over Tri-Rail operations?
> 
> 
> 
> Very low to none. At least that is the impression I got talking to the AAF folks the last time I talked to them. They really do not want to be in the business of running anything other than their own higher speed service(s).
Click to expand...

This is my feeling as well. This isn't to say that you might not see some interlining deals of some kind or another, but the management would probably be separate.

AAF adding 2-3 more stations in South Florida doesn't mean they're going to magically be running commuter trains (and neither does it mean that all trains will make all stops). Moreover, Tri-Rail will likely be priced below profitability for political reasons (expect a running clash over fares between them...Tri-Rail tried to get AAF to agree to lock their lowest fares to a multiple of Tri-Rail's fares, and AAF will probably want the opposite).


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## jis

Basically TriRail will set fares that politics can bear, whereas AAF will set fares that market will bear while covering their costs and hopefully making a decent return.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Basically TriRail will set fares that politics can bear, whereas AAF will set fares that market will bear while covering their costs and hopefully making a decent return.


If (as has repeatdely been stated) AAF operations are just a lever to improve the performance of FEC's real estate portfolio, then surely having Tri-Rail share the Miami terminus (and maybe in future other sites too) is just an additional leverage in bringing in additional clients and hence boosting the value of said real estate portfolio. And seeing that in contrast to AAF, TriRail is not costing FEC anything, it's ultimately the more attractive half of the proposition.

Although maybe on the other hand AAF clients are a richer demographic, and hence more likely to spend big dollars while waiting for their train. Only time can tell.


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## VentureForth

Thank you for all pointing out that Tri Rail is wanting to run on FEC. That's not what I called nonsense. What is ridiculous is that they feel the need to run a 2nd line just a mile apart from their existing line. Granted, that distance spreads when you get closer to Miami, and the current line is limited to the airport.

But as mentioned above, I wouldn't think FEC would want Tri Rail to foul their high speed ops with their commuter traffic. If I were FEC, I'd gently ask them to keep their dirty wheels off my track.

Sounds like a grand plan by government to take over private business - or bully them into cooperating. Interestingly, according to that 2nd link to the Tri Rail Coastal Link, the Green Line would go up to Jupiter - one of the major opponents to the AAF project.

This would also add 18 stops between WPB and MIA and 5 more North of WPB. Is FEC going to build a high speed bypass at EVERY one of those stations so they don't stay cluttered while tring to run AAF every 30 minutes?


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## Palmetto

Venture Forth has an interesting perspective. Anyone know if a scheduling matrix has been done to see how mixing Tri-Rail and AAF would work out.


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## Anderson

Palmetto said:


> Venture Forth has an interesting perspective. Anyone know if a scheduling matrix has been done to see how mixing Tri-Rail and AAF would work out.


I think there was some (unpublished) poking at this...and it resulted in AAF _seriously_ ramping up demands for track improvements. Hence my earlier ask on fourth tracks and the like.


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## jis

AAF will have one tph (well maybe eventually two) in each direction. Tri rail will have 2 to 4 tph in each direction. They will be required to add a third track for their service. They could run 2 to 4 tph in each direction purely on a single track with passing sidings if need be. It really does not take the figuring out of a huge scheduling matrix to see that triple track for about 5.5 tph (0.5tph for freight) is way more than adequate. We are talking of basically a non-existent problem. If 5 tph on triple track were a problem for 1to 2 tph of 100mph train mixed in with 4 tph of commuter trains, all of NEC would be at a standstill due to congestion today.

For some reason people simply refuse to believe what is know to be part of the plan and cook up problems based on contrived setups so that we can have a fun discussion I suppose.

Frankly there will be mutiny in the towns that FEC passes through due to excessive time spent in closed grade crossings due to too many trains before there is a congestion problem due to lack of track capacity on the FEC if they build out according to current plans.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> AAF will have one tph (well maybe eventually two) in each direction. Tri rail will have 2 to 4 tph in each direction. They will be required to add a third track for their service. They could run 2 to 4 tph in each direction purely on a single track with passing sidings if need be. It really does not take the figuring out of a huge scheduling matrix to see that triple track for about 5.5 tph (0.5tph for freight) is way more than adequate. We are talking of basically a non-existent problem. If 5 tph on triple track were a problem for 1to 2 tph of 100mph train mixed in with 4 tph of commuter trains, all of NEC would be at a standstill due to congestion today.
> 
> For some reason people simply refuse to believe what is know to be part of the plan and cook up problems based on contrived setups so that we can have a fun discussion I suppose.
> 
> Frankly there will be mutiny in the towns that FEC passes through due to excessive time spent in closed grade crossings due to too many trains before there is a congestion problem due to lack of track capacity on the FEC if they build out according to current plans.


Jis,

I got my train counts off of two sources. One is this:

http://tri-railcoastallinkstudy.com/docs/%283.14.1%29_SFECC_Final_Alternative_Analysis.pdf

The other is the demands FEC put out there when SFRTA raised the issue in the last year or two.


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## jis

Yes. Even if they manage to do every service that they talk about it will be at most 10tph (including AAF's 2tph assumed) on FEC. 3 mains tracks plus passing tracks at judiciously chosen stations would be way more than adequate to handle net net 6 min headway in each direction. Though typically the 4 tph will most likely be in the prevailing rush direction for each of those service and not in both direction. They would probably be better off keeping the freights away during the rush hours. FEC will definitely require a third main for any Tri-Rail service tog et on FEC. This I have heard in no uncertain terms. As for whether they will require a fourth track in certain places is an open issue. But given the traffic that people are talking of, such is probably not required. Even Indian Railways with pretty antiquated signaling system manages to run 10 tph on three tracks with a mix of slow stopping EMUs and fast non-stop expresses over similar route lengths.


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## Brian_tampa

AAF to build even if it can't obtain tax exempt bonds. This is AAF's way of telling the Treasure Coast that they won't stop the project!

From the TC Palm this afternoon:

http://www.tcpalm.com/franchise/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/all-aboard-florida-well-build-even-if-taxexempt-bonds-are-blocked_42798460

Indian River Countys effort to derail All Aboard Florida by blocking its financing wont stop the project, according to court documents. It only will make it more expensive.

All Aboard Florida and the U.S. Department of Transportation on Monday asked a federal judge to deny Indian River Countys attempt to temporarily block the sale of $1.75 billion of tax-exempt bonds. That money would fund most of the $3 billion project.

The county previously claimed that All Aboard Florida and DOT, which in December gave preliminary approval to bond issuance, violated environmental laws by approving the financing before receiving final federal approval.

The countys March 31 lawsuit asks the court to invalidate DOTs decision and prevent sale of the bonds until the federal requirements have been met.

A hearing on the preliminary-injunction request is set for May 29 in Washington, D.C.

An injunction, depending on its duration, could permanently block tax-exempt funding for All Aboard Florida. DOTs approval is conditional on All Aboard Florida selling its bonds by July 1.

All Aboard Florida previously has called the $1.75 billion of private-activity bonds the linchpin of the project. In Mondays court documents, however, attorneys said the bonds are the best, but not the only option available.

All Aboard Florida already has invested hundreds of millions of dollars, according to the defendants response.

If denied private-activity bonds, All Aboard Florida likely would seek traditional bonds at an increased cost of $277 million to $394 million, according to the defendants filing.

Government agencies also are deeply invested theyve contributed to station infrastructure and track-crossing safety upgrades and also would see increased costs if the private-activity bonds are denied.

All Aboard Florida plans to run 32 trains a day between Miami and Orlando by 2017. It previously said it would use bond financing to purchase equipment and upgrade and build new tracks.

Edit: my thought is that the same potential buyers of PABs have been offered a traditional bond but with higher yield. It appears that AAF has buyers lined up for the whole $1.75B bond sale - reports say the PABs will be sold by June 8. That is why AAF knows the cost differential. Expect to see either type of bond sale to take place quickly in the next month.


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## chrsjrcj

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/in-the-news/press-releases/2015/05/21/media-advisory-fern-street-in-wpb-to-close-(5-25---5-28)

If I am to understand the media advisory, the new track they are installing is the new freight bypass which will be necessary for when station work begins (and I'm assuming once it completes too). I assume they will be re-configuring the existing mainline track once the bypass is up and running.


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## Paulus

A high speed train between South Florida and Orlando would eventually attract 7 million riders a year and generate $400 million in revenue, according to report released today by All Aboard Florida.

Anyone able to track down a link to that report?


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## Brian_tampa

Here is the link to the full 150+ page report. Thanks to TC Palm linking to it on their online story this afternoon:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2089512/aaf-projections.pdf

It is a rather impressive detailed report of how they came up with the numbers. Most interesting was the ridership breakout toward the end showing where the riders would come from. They have special events, South American visitors, UCF students, and others broken out for each year and by area of travel. Definitely a good read. It has cleared a lot of things up for me.


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## Brian_tampa

Just saw this online tonight. This is the most detailed information about AAF financing I have seen yet:

http://www.eb5visa-program.com/all-aboard-florida-project.php

The segment between WPB and Miami will cost $1.3 Billion according to this investor site involved with raising money for AAF. $252 million is for the rolling stock - not sure if that is for the initial order for 5 train sets or for all 10 train sets? And Siemens is loaning AAF $141 million as well. Will the ultimate train operator also contribute equity to the project I wonder?

The stations costs are also $250 million or so. Rail infrastructure upgrades are $217 million and "rail easement costs" are $343 million. Would that be the cost that AAF is paying back to FECI/FECR to use the ROW? That seems rather high... Maybe it's a way that FRCI/Fortress can protect their investment by demanding such a large amount from AAF?

Seems like a major source of financing is through the EB5 visa program where wealthy investors in projects in the USA can obtain green cards or citizenship through their investments. A Canadian company (CanAm Enterprises, LLC) is raising $300 million in funds to go toward AAF initial segment. No word on what the second phase north to Orlando will cost!

This is definitely very interesting stuff!


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## Paulus

I'm thinking it must be for all ten sets. Great find.

If it's for all ten sets, it comes out to ~$2M even for the coach cars. More likely I suspect that the $141.3 million equals 100% financing for the coach cars.


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## Anderson

I've spent the last few hours devouring a good portion of the AAF report. Honestly, it looks solid (even if there are a few areas that we all know the numbers can be fudged in the assumptions). One of the oddball surprises in the report was mentioning 14x daily r/t instead of 16x daily r/t (with departures starting at 0500 and running until 1900) with a time of 3:15 en route versus 3:00 which I believe had been touted before. I /know/ the frequency reduction is a change; I'm slightly less certain on the time increase, but I'd still put my certainty at about 75% (if for no other reason than I recall us crunching numbers and getting average speeds of about 80 MPH).

Mild comic relief shows up in asking people about "intercity rail" and getting lots of folks talking about commuter rail or subways (the latter probably being people not distinguishing between "intercity" and "inner city"; FWIW, that distinction would have been lost on me long ago so I'm not exactly surprised that it was an issue. Best thing they migh have done there is asked for people to name the intercity rail folks had taken in an attempt to be more clear).

The ramp-up estimates look good...the Eurostar is the better comparison than the Acela because the Acela was built on a pre-existing high-frequency service (the Metroliner); the Lynchburger likewise behaved a lot like the Acela (though it only had one trip per day, it was "doubling" the Crescent over its run and there was some immediate ridership shuffling).

On fares, it's interesting looking at where AAF expects to fall...namely, right around comparalowble-distance Regional fares. It is also interesting seeing Amtrak's yield factors plotted out...and seeing cases on the left side of the chart where it is pretty obvious that Amtrak is shoving fares into the stratosphere in an attempt to avoid having short-hop traffic crowd out longer-haul passengers. Of note, AAF does much the same in the MIA-FLL market (where lower fares would risk "crashing the system" with demand).

Something worth noting is that Fort Lauderdale tends to be an "expensive" air market compared to Orlando (Miami, due to its international gateway status, is a different animal entirelt). It seems that AAF is serious about making a play for getting passengers to consider flying to MCO instead of FLL and then using a train to bridge that last link. At least quickly punching in some options from Virginia to MCO/FLL, Orlando does tend to have more options than Fort Lauderdale (there are about 20% more flight takeoffs/landings at MCO than at FLL, with about 50% more passengers).

Moving onto the ridership projections, it's pretty clear that the results correspond roughly to the "Management Case" in one of the previous reports. With that in mind, let's have some fun, shall we?

2020: Going off of a 400-seat train with 14x daily round-trips (or put another way, 28x daily one-way trips) running 365 days per year there are 4,088,000 seats available on any single segment of the route throughout the year [1]. In 2020, AAF's ridership figures kick out load factors of 61.99% MCO-WPB, 91.22% WPB-FLL, and 71.80% FLL-MIA. [2] To be quite frank, I find a load factor of over 90% to be almost totally unbelievable. 
2030: Again going off a 400-seat train with 14x daily round-trips/28x daily one-way trips running 365 days per year, there will still be 4,088,000 seats available on each segment. Going with AAF's figures again, the load factors are 86.36% MCO-WPB, 119.15% WPB-FLL, and 93.41% FLL-MIA. The MCO-WPB and FLL-MIA numbers are borderline fanciful while the WPB-FLL figures would imply that even though two objects cannot occupy the same space, AAF is expecting two passengers to occupy the same seat quite a good share of the time.

The short version is that the ridership stats do not line up with the space that AAF would have available. Assuming that a practical limit on overall load factors for the service is around 85% in the peak WPB-FLL segment (and a bit lower on the other segments), AAF would need about 300,000 extra seats in 2020 and 1.64m extra seats in 2030 to make this work out. I think 85% is a bit on the high side to be honest, but it seems within the realm of possibility; part of the issue, of course, is that many riders simply are not able to randomly move their reservation to the 0500 train or the 1900 train on the basis of space availability; I'm also looking at the fact that (on the basis of experience in the Northeast but accounting for FL being at least somewhat different) ridership tends to be a bit lower on Saturdays and Sundays (as well as some holidays) and there's some seasonal variation that you can't get around (e.g. look at NE Regional ridership in January versus July). Again, FL is not the Northeast...but while some of those trends will smooth out and/or get inverted, such variations will always be present.

My best guess is that (A) AAF will edge its way back up to 16x daily round-trips and/or (B) AAF will seriously look into running additional MIA-WPB trains. In particular, the possibility of running at least an extra 4-6x daily round-trips on this segment not only seems plausible, it seems almost more likely than not...especially since if the first train leaves MCO at 0500, it won't get to WPB until around 0700 and there's probably a market for an earlier departure or two; the same holds for evening returns out of MIA...if there's a market for a 2215 arrival into MCO there's probably a market for a departure or two after 1900 from MIA bound just for WPB. In particular, extra peak-period trains MIA-WPB would allow AAF to clear out space for MCO-bound pax on the through train with higher short-hop prices while not losing those riders to do so. Please note that in considering some of these stats, I'm ignoring

To be fair, going to 500 seats per train would go some distance towards solving the load factor issue...but without adding frequencies, AAF is still looking at a load factor of 95.32% WPB-FLL...and I just don't buy that high a load factor over all 365 days of the year (and frankly, over 14 hours of departure most days; the Acela doesn't exactly have the 0500 departure leave WAS slam full, after all). Of course, with the report explicitly noting the ridership potential of "special events" it is quite possible that AAF is planning to have significant service outside of their baseline hourly service.

[1] The calculation is (400)*(28)*(365).
[2] Ridership numbers are 2,534,100 on the MCO-WPB segment (which equals the long-distance ridership), 3,729,000 on the WPB-FLL segment (which loses the MCO-WPB ridership but adds WPB-FLL and WPB-MIA), and 2,935,300 on the FLL-MIA segment (which loses the MCO-FLL and WPB-FLL ridership but adds FLL-MIA).

Edit: Brian, brilliant find on the visa stuff...and points to the hedgies over at Fortress for coming up with that one!


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## cirdan

Thanks Anderson for that very detailed analysis.

I'm guessing special events means either extra cars attached to trains or even special trains being run, which would explain capacity figures of over 100%.

They may also be planning on a hybrid model of seat reservations as SNCF has. Basically you cannot board a TGV if you don't have a seat reservation and this way they can do yield management and use prices to manage occupancy, a bit like airlines do. But in addition, SNCF has the concept that under certain conditions you can board anyway, even if you don't have a reservation. For example if you are a season ticket holder or have a certain loyalty card status. In this case you can either walk through the train and look for an empty seat, or if you don't find one, sit in the bar car (which is what many people do anyway, even if they have a reserved seat elsewhere) or sit on one of the jumper seats in the vestibules. On a busy say such a train can thus have an occupancy of maybe 120%.


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## jis

I also wonder whether it is etched in stone that past 2020 they will stick with exactly 10 trainsets and exactly 14 roundtrips and nothing else. I would find that somewhat astounding if the projected ridership numbers actually pan out.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> I also wonder whether it is etched in stone that past 2020 they will stick with exactly 10 trainsets and exactly 14 roundtrips and nothing else. I would find that somewhat astounding if the projected ridership numbers actually pan out.


Extra round trips can be added at short notice. What takes long term planning is having the rolling stock and track capacity available. Thus extra peak hour runs may be impossible without a long lead time to be able to order the extra trains and maybe add track capacity. But off peak or early morning or late night services can be added without any capex or significant lead time. Their details thus do not need to be set in stone this far in advance.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder whether it is etched in stone that past 2020 they will stick with exactly 10 trainsets and exactly 14 roundtrips and nothing else. I would find that somewhat astounding if the projected ridership numbers actually pan out.
> 
> 
> 
> Extra round trips can be added at short notice. What takes long term planning is having the rolling stock and track capacity available. Thus extra peak hour runs may be impossible without a long lead time to be able to order the extra trains and maybe add track capacity. But off peak or early morning or late night services can be added without any capex or significant lead time. Their details thus do not need to be set in stone this far in advance.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Looking at their consist allocation plan, or as much of it as I can work out from limited info, it seems they have enough slop to allow them to run e.g. many addition RTs between MIC and FLL if needed. Even track capacity wise it should not be a huge issue.


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## Anderson

Well, assuming 3:15 runtime MIA-MCO, they're presumably planning to have 8 sets in use at all times (which allows 45 minutes to deboard, clean/restock, and board the train at each end and/or change out the train with one in the yard) with sets 9 and 10 as a mix of protect sets and sets that are out of service for the normal cycle of inspections. To be fair, the 90-day inspections can happen on a weekend; it's the longer annual inspections that are an issue here. Even then, though, that's two 3-day periods per year and I wouldn't be surprised if those end up happening buried within some odd weekends (President's Day is a candidate, for example) and other slow periods. With a ninth set in use you could easily boost either MIA-WPB or FLL-WPB by a round-trip per peak period.

Of course, I expect that the equipment order probably has options for a few extra sets; considering that they're already working on the paperwork for the Jacksonville extension, I'd expect them to basically roll the needed options into this order and have a decent back-end time for that.


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## Alex M.

I am curious if AAF would take a leaf from California and team up with a bus operator to offer a thruway bus system with through ticketing from, say, Ocala to Orlando for the train ride to south Florida.


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## jis

Yeah, I think the plans beyond 2022 or so are pretty fluid at present. Lot of possibilities being explored in the background as we speak.

I would not tie the 2030 ridership estimates to the current train set availability for 2020. I would vies the 2030 ridership projections more as an estimate of what is possible given enough equipment rather than one that assumes this equipment. The time to turn around from placement of order to getting equipment into service is surely never going to be more than 3 years, at least with Siemens. And as I have mentioned before, track capacity is not going to be an issue even to double frequency as things stand. But generally learning to to crawl before waling and running is a good idea. Take well defined achievable steps, one step at a time to ramp up.


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## Anderson

Alex M. said:


> I am curious if AAF would take a leaf from California and team up with a bus operator to offer a thruway bus system with through ticketing from, say, Ocala to Orlando for the train ride to south Florida.


Well, they've said that they intend to do this within South Florida (with a 2x daily bus from Miami to Key West, and probably to at least some intermediate destinations)...so I suspect that teaming up elsewhere (e.g. Tampa) is definitely plausible.


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## CHamilton

All Aboard Florida Unveils Plans for Residential Tower Next to West Palm Beach Station


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## Alex M.

In the late 19th century on into the early 20th, early suburban communities were developed with the developer building a streetcar line to entice the sale of the houses. Once that was accomplished, the streetcar system was sold to another party, or turned over to the city as part of their transit system. I wonder if we are seeing a 21st century variation of that? I, for one, hope not. I would like to see this flourish as a private entity. That way, it would not end up as Florida's Amtrak: A ward of the state with meddling politicians.


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## jis

Transportation and meddling politicians go hand in hand whether public or private, and this has been so since the inception of transportation infrastructure in the modern sense of the word. When the political meddling is in line with our desires we celebrate it, indeed we invite it, and when it goes the other way we wish that there was no meddling. but make no mistake. Today's rail network in the US would not have come to being in this form without an exceedingly large amount of political meddling that was put in place to encourage its construction. Some even here would argue that setting the infrastructure free in the hands of private entities after funding its construction was a colossal mistake. So I am afraid there is no unanimity of opinion about whether it would be a good or a bad thing if a developed entity lands up this way or that.


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## Anderson

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/06/10/all-aboard-florida-martin-indian-river-counties-lose-battle-to-block-bonds/

https://cmgpbprealtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/allaboarddecision.pdf

Still reading the article, but per the headline it looks like the two counties got laughed out of court on standing grounds (i.e. they couldn't even show that they really had grounds to sue).


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## cirdan

Alex M. said:


> In the late 19th century on into the early 20th, early suburban communities were developed with the developer building a streetcar line to entice the sale of the houses. Once that was accomplished, the streetcar system was sold to another party, or turned over to the city as part of their transit system. I wonder if we are seeing a 21st century variation of that? I, for one, hope not. I would like to see this flourish as a private entity. That way, it would not end up as Florida's Amtrak: A ward of the state with meddling politicians.


If it means the state gets the present of a well built and modern rail system serving a real purpose, then surely that is better for the state than having the state build the same with its own money, especially taking into account the states ability to turn such things into pork barrel spending, waste and inefficiency.

Many private sector products will by law full into state hands after a certain number of years. For example it was written into the Channel Tunnel's statute from day one that after something like 80 years it will be given to the state. That gives the private sector sufficient time to recover its costs (well, maybe the Channel Tunnel is a big example here) whil in the longer term the state isn't losing its silver.


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## jis

Anderson said:


> http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/06/10/all-aboard-florida-martin-indian-river-counties-lose-battle-to-block-bonds/
> 
> https://cmgpbprealtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/allaboarddecision.pdf
> 
> Still reading the article, but per the headline it looks like the two counties got laughed out of court on standing grounds (i.e. they couldn't even show that they really had grounds to sue).


Yup, they basically got laughed out of court.
In other good news, Rep Posey's (R-Florida) anti-AAF amendments to the THUD bill failed miserably thus clearing another hurdle for AAF. The Treasure Coast NIMBY's are livid, but it has not occurred to those morons yet that it is their money they are pissing away based on their decisions, so they have no one else to blame.

Posey incidentally has a 100% record of always voting against Amtrak and passenger rail. He is a poster child of the Tea Party. And incidentally he represents the constituency that I am in.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/06/10/all-aboard-florida-martin-indian-river-counties-lose-battle-to-block-bonds/
> 
> https://cmgpbprealtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/allaboarddecision.pdf
> 
> Still reading the article, but per the headline it looks like the two counties got laughed out of court on standing grounds (i.e. they couldn't even show that they really had grounds to sue).
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, they basically got laughed out of court.
> 
> In other good news, Rep Posey's (R-Florida) anti-AAF amendments to the THUD bill failed miserably thus clearing another hurdle for AAF. The Treasure Coast NIMBY's are livid, but it has not occurred to those morons yet that it is their money they are pissing away based on their decisions, so they have no one else to blame.
> 
> Posey incidentally has a 100% record of always voting against Amtrak and passenger rail. he is a poster child of the Tea baggeres. And incidentally he represents the constituency that I am in. :
Click to expand...

You know, I can get Rep. Poser voting against Amtrak...but with a lot of those guys my patience is running a little thin over AAF given that it is a private sector project.

With a little bit of luck these guys will seethe and, once the project is finished, they'll finish kvetching and start asking for stations. I kind of want to see AAF's reaction then...Cocoa notwithstanding (and then mainly for transfer value) there's a part of me that would like to see a "Georgetown approach" to them while another part just wants to see everyone get train service as a way of dealing with this sort of problem in the longer run.


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## Brian_tampa

It looks like the opponents actually plan to appeal! CATT or citizens against the train, had this to say:

All Aboard Florida officials said they were very pleased by the judges decision while Phyllis Frey from Citizens Against the Train (CATT) fired back with, We will appeal.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/federal-judge-shoots-down-challenge-all-aboard-florida-bonds

on what basis will they appeal? Well, an article in the TC Palm website gives a hint. Opposition lawyer Stephen Ryan says he will be searching for more evidence to prove that AAF really needs the PABs to complete the project. I thought that was his job leading up to this first lawsuit? I guess he has to say something in order to suck more money out of the taxpayers. LOL

They are also hinting that they will sue the FDFC or State of Florida by claiming the board members appointed by Gov Scott are not in good standing, meaning the decisions they make on AAF can be overturned. This lawyer is a typical, well, lawyer. He promises he can do big things then it turns out he is more of a marketing genius than actual railroad lawyer. I hope they continue to sue and fight so that AAF can countersue for millions in damages. That way the taxpayers of Martin and Indian River counties will directly be impacted. They deserve nothing less in my mind.


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## Caesar La Rock

In the meanwhile, construction has begun on the Miami Central Station.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> Posey...is a poster child of the Tea baggers.


I find that statement rather offensive. I have Tea Party ideals, but the term Tea bagger is a very vulgar term. Even outside of the vulgar context, I don't think that 100% voting record against rail is a Tea Party ideal. We generally look to reduce the amount of interference government imposes on private enterprise so that it is private ownership that takes the risk and realizes the gain or loss from their endeavor, rather than continuously take private money and sink it into something that [relatively] few people benefit from. To that definition, your representative is not a Tea Party wonk, but rather what we conservatives call an "establishment Republican".

A conservative Republican should be cheering on AAF.

In other news the Long Beach Post is reporting a crying nimby who wants to have his own stake in the matter:



> “As a landowner living close to the Florida East Coast Railway, the same site that All Aboard Florida trains would use, he believes that his property will lose substantial value due to the many, noisy high-speed passenger trains moving on these tracks, the danger that they will create at the many two-lane graded crossings that (he) must use to get to the nearby town and cities as well as the major highways, the road gridlock that will result and the life-threatening harm that will follow will slower response times by emergency personnel and vehicles,” the motion said.


The same arguments - Land prices dropping (they typically don't), gridlock (often shorter times than a red light), life-threatening harm (what if the ambulance comes by when a pre-existing, slower, longer freight is coming through?) SAME exact arguments. Same exact crap.

Aren't these attorneys paid enough to know when one set of arguments get laughed out of court that perhaps a different strategy is necessary?


----------



## Ryan

But alas, they are not as the core philosophy of Republicans of all stripes (Tea or establishment) seems to be "oppose vigorously anything supported by a Democrat. Perhaps best expressed by Sen McConnell's "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." in November of 2010.

I'd love for the Republican party to return to a more sane "The single most important thing we want to achieve is to make America the greatest nation that it could be".

I'm not hopeful, given the clown car of idiots lining up for 2016.


----------



## Anderson

A lawyer is paid for two things. The first is for his advice and the second is, within certain limits, to do as he is instructed. I have little doubt that advice has been offered to these folks that their chances of success are slim...but at their direction, their counsel has come up with a theory (or set of theories) to toss at a court.

Frankly, I suspect that if counsel is being honest with itself they know this is likely to go nowhere...but I'm reminded of the fact that some US Attorney a few months back was stuck arguing that an elderly nun somehow represented a "grave threat to national security" (she had been involved in a "raid" on Oak Ridge, IIRC, which involved painting graffiti on the walls, chipping a bit of cement, and offering brownies to the guards who showed up an hour or so into the incursion; IIRC the greatest threat to security was that they showed that the facility's security was inept)...and there are plenty of cases where lawyers are stuck offering risible arguments over "grave and irreparable harms" to meet the standards of various laws.

To put it another way, lawyers can be paid very good money to give sound advice and then not follow it.


----------



## VentureForth

The situation with the nun had more to do with the fact that she broke through security lapses that otherwise terrorists could have severely exploited. So, yes, they got her on trespass, but I don't think anyone thinks she was a threat to national security, rather the holes in security were a huge threat to national security.

In other non-relevant news, I discovered an abandoned planned community this weekend while out driving. One of the streets is named "Nimby Rd".

Sheesh.


----------



## Bob Dylan

NIMBY Road! That's excellent, every city needs one of those!

They kept Austin from expanding its light Rail by teaming up with the Asphalt and Toll Road Lobby, but meanwhile the traffic grows worse as the developers rape the town!!


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> The situation with the nun had more to do with the fact that she broke through security lapses that otherwise terrorists could have severely exploited. So, yes, they got her on trespass, but I don't think anyone thinks she was a threat to national security, rather the holes in security were a huge threat to national security.
> 
> In other non-relevant news, I discovered an abandoned planned community this weekend while out driving. One of the streets is named "Nimby Rd".
> 
> Sheesh.


(The way it came across was that they threw charges at her because they were embarrassed at what she was able to do)

And...I love that. Nimby Rd. indeed!


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## VentureForth

Again, that development was abandoned in a very nice, posh, gated golf community. I guess the nimby's didn't even want a NEIGHBORHOOD there!


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## Caesar La Rock

Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378


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## jis

The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.


----------



## rrdude

THE CJ said:


> Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.
> 
> http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378


I swear, sometimes I actually get butterflies in my stomach when I'm reading about AAF. Then I have to remind myself, it could still get killed.

I think it won't, and THAT will be a great day. An even BETTER DAY if they can turn a profit, any how they can. Land, leases, services, even hauling passengers.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

rrdude said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the maintenance facility will be at Orlando International Airport.
> 
> http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2015/06/all-aboard-florida-chooses-train-maintenance-firm.html?ana=e_orl_bn_newsalert&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1435687378
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, sometimes I actually get butterflies in my stomach when I'm reading about AAF. Then I have to remind myself, it could still get killed.
> 
> I think it won't, and THAT will be a great day. An even BETTER DAY if they can turn a profit, any how they can. Land, leases, services, even hauling passengers.
Click to expand...

I keep in mind that the project is already under construction. There isn't much that those NIMBYs can do about it. That's why I'm really not worried about AAF. I'm moreover concerned with how Lynx and Sunrail will handle the increase in passengers, once AAF is fully operational by 2017.



jis said:


> The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.


This is going to be interesting. If the cars turn out to be a success with AAF, Amtrak could potentially order them. They may even discontinue the Viewliner line entirely, if they're happy with the Viaggio Comfort Cars.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.


You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, shouldn't all railroads outside of Amtrak be maintaining their tracks up to high standards anyway? Preventing accidents from happening is important after all. We can agree that when a freight train derails, the railroad in question loses money on whatever was damaged or destroyed in the accident.


----------



## xyzzy

THE CJ said:


> With all due respect, shouldn't all railroads outside of Amtrak be maintaining their tracks up to high standards anyway? Preventing accidents from happening is important after all. We can agree that when a freight train derails, the railroad in question loses money on whatever was damaged or destroyed in the accident.


The simple answer is, No. First, there are many things that cause freight trains to derail. Track faults are only one reason and probably not the major one. Derailments happen on high-quality track, too. Second, as is the case for the Interstate highway system, the expense of maintenance is proportional to the standard of maintenance. In fact it's disproportionately expensive. Rail transportation is a fundamental input into the economic matrix of the nation. Over-maintained track is an economic hit for everyone.

The FRA system of track classification and speed limits (http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/track-classifications) has worked quite well since it was introduced ~40 years ago. The better question is, how diligent is enforcement of these standards.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Coaches in the Siemens consists will be based on the Viaggio Comfort Cars, which from the description (and actually having ridden one recently) appear to be better cars than anything that Amtrak has so far come up with based on the Viewliner platform. With the availability of these cars essentially off the shelf, and possibly cheaper than the Viewliner based cars, due to worldwide volume production, I wonder what this might portend for the future of Viewliners when it comes time to order Coaches for next gen Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to bear in mind that in Europe the tracks are mostly maintained to a smoother standard then in the USA. So if you are experiencing a smoother ride there it may not necessarily be down to the car you're riding in. I understand AAF track will essentially be of a high standard, but when it comes to Amtrak I don't think this can be seen as a given. I would be careful making any predictions until such cars have actually been tested under real world conditions.
Click to expand...

I was not considering ride quality of ride that much except in the context of speculating ride quality on similar tracks.. Even I understand that track has an impact on that. I was talking of general creature comfort, ambiance and simple things like sealed doors and corridors, large windows etc.

I would expect Amfleet Is to mostly operate on the NEC and its immediate vicinity. The replacement for Amfleet IIs would be the ones that would run all over the place. NE Regionals mostly run on at least as high quality tracks as AAF will ever have, so the track argument for cars that will mostly run on the NEC and related branches which mostly have relatively high quality track too, makes that argument somewhat irrelevant. but as I said that was a secondary consideration. Perhaps it is time to consider real higher speed train sets for NEC and decouple that from the cars that have the misfortune of having to run elsewhere.

Besides the ride quality of the current Amtrak cars on even good quality track as it stands is nothing to write home about. If we assume that excellent qua.ity track is equivalent to so so quality track in Europe, even then those cars come out ahead even in ride quality.

And whose making predictions? We are just discussing possibilities. 

BTW, FRA track classification has more to do with safety than ride quality. For a good quality riding track it has to be maintained somewhat better than just meeting FRA requirements. That is unlikely to happen outside of the primarily passenger corridors.


----------



## xyzzy

As someone who rides European trains often, I want to point out that relatively few rail lines in Europe carry the daily weight of freight that many rail lines in the U.S. do. Most of the European high-speed lines carry no freight. Heavy freight (at the limit of axle loading) is very punishing to track components. Furthermore the primary routes of the U.S. railroads are longer in length than the primary routes of western European railroads, western Europe being what Americans generally think of when they refer to Europe.

I agree that Amfleet I/II ride quality is not great, but the designs of those cars reflect 1960s engineering.


----------



## jis

For Regionals we are talking only of NEC and its extensions where 170kph to 200kph is allowed. We are really not talking of high speed lines at all in the sense they are used in Europe. We are also not talking of lines away from the Northeast which are limited to 125-130kph. The Viaggios are really not designed for high speed line operations. They are for standard European main line, many of which allow speeds upto 200kph or a little higher.

Yes US has a heavy axle loading problem not only with freights but even surprisingly, with their passenger diesels - witness the MPI36s for example, not to mention the ALP45-DPs. Consequently, my expectations of getting passenger service in the US with the smoothness of ride experienced in Europe is slim to none, even on the NEC.

Having said all that, we are yet to see what tweaks Siemens will have to or choose to make to Viaggios to adapt them to US conditions. Afterall even FEC carries plenty of freight on the lines (at 100 to 110kph) on which the AAF trains will run (limited to about 170kph). AAF will run at 200kph only on dedicated track with no freight. So we will know for sure how these cars work out in American conditions once they get deployed on AAF, and then we can extrapolate from that. Until then it is all speculation and random what if questions that are fun to discuss in forums like this.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I was talking of general creature comfort, ambiance and simple things like sealed doors and corridors, large windows etc..


Maybe things like window sizes are dictated by the platform, but most of the other ambiance and comfort criteria are not dicacted by the manufacturer or platform but by the customer's specs and wishes. It's the customer who can decide whether they want something spacious and tasteful or something cheap and ugly. And this in turn may be dictated by the type of service the car is intended for. You wouldn't expect the same creature comforts on a glorified commuter train than you would on an LD trip.


----------



## jis

I have not taken any LD trip in Europe recently though. They were all glorified commuter trips, even the ICE ones, and they are mostly presented as such. But notwithstanding that they have generally better creature comforts than Amtrak's glorified commuter trips (read NEC Regionals). Although in general Amtrak seats are probably better in many cases, specially compared to open carriages, as opposed to compartmentalized carriages. Of course Amtrak does not have the latter as an option at all.


----------



## xyzzy

I agree that axle loads on U.S. passenger locomotives are high. At the other end, U.K. passenger locomotives have a terrible time in the autumn when wet leaves fall on tracks.

But most of the damage to tracks is caused not by locomotives but the repetitive pounding from heavy freight cars, e.g. 120-car coal trains at 130 gross tons per car.


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## Alex M.

I rather doubt that Amtrak would be interested in these cars, even if they do exceed expectations for AAF. It may be just another oddball set of rolling stock using different parts. Where a potential market might be is in the state sponsored trains like the Piedmonts.


----------



## Paulus

Alex M. said:


> I rather doubt that Amtrak would be interested in these cars, even if they do exceed expectations for AAF. It may be just another oddball set of rolling stock using different parts. Where a potential market might be is in the state sponsored trains like the Piedmonts.


Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleets soon, so they wouldn't be "just another oddball set of rolling stock."


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## xyzzy

It's difficult to imagine that Congress will fund 600 new passengers cars anytime soon.


----------



## jis

Congress has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.

But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.

In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Congres has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.
> 
> But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.
> 
> In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.


absolutely, if Siemens pull this off smartly, they could do very well on this. I suspect that FEC is to some extent a door-opener to them and that they are pricing aggressively to get into and prove themselves in the North American market.


----------



## Paulus

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congres has pretty much said that Amtrak has to use RRIF and other private means for financing new equipment.
> 
> But of course, that is for the time being. political winds could change.
> 
> In acquiring replacement for Amfleet Is Amtrak will need to balance the cost savings from buying off the shelf equipment with minimal modification for US adaptation against building a relatively small run of completely different cars from anything available off the shelf. I don;t know where the balance falls on that. As for oddball cars, any batch of 400 to 600 cars will not be oddball by any stretch of imagination. The Talgos are way more oddball than that any day.
> 
> 
> 
> absolutely, if Siemens pull this off smartly, they could do very well on this. I suspect that FEC is to some extent a door-opener to them and that they are pricing aggressively to get into and prove themselves in the North American market.
Click to expand...

It's a pretty bottom barrel price, quite possibly at cost, and they're financing the entire car purchase as well.


----------



## Palmetto

I have not seen anything about food service on AAF. Anyone know?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Palmetto said:


> I have not seen anything about food service on AAF. Anyone know?


It's mentioned that food and drinks will be provided, according to their website.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/about-us/all-aboard-florida


----------



## VentureForth

Being such a short run, time wise, I think it would make much more sense to offer as little real estate on board for food service. A couple vending machines should be fine. 3 hours max journey won't leave anyone starving. That being said, it's always a lure to the train. But if NO ONE can make it profitable and if it's a huge drain on cash, then it'll be the first thing to go.

A snack trolley would be sufficient.


----------



## jis

All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.

According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be



> Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.


I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.


----------



## VentureForth

More power to them. If their bottom line can absorb it, I definitely wish it well.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Archer Western will be building the tracks and structure for the OIA segment of AAF.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-train-orlando-archer-western-20150707-story.html

This is also the same company who built the Sunrail corridor and they did one hell of a job, in my opinion.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.
> 
> According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.


----------



## jis

It just goes to show that Gene Skorpowski knows what he is doing, and the success of the Capitol Corridor in California was no accident.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> All Aboard Florida plans to have a Lounge/Food Service Car in each train.
> 
> According to a FEC/AAF web site among the services provided will be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nourishing, tasty meals and beverages — When you ride on an All Aboard Florida train, you can enjoy food and beverage options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have also heard that (hearsay) First Class service will include high quality food service. I have also heard that they do not plan to try to make the food service an independent business with its own P&L, i.e. they do not plan to make it separately profitable necessarily.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.
Click to expand...

Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.


Depending on AAF's business model.

If they can convince some airlines to codeshare with them, this would indeed be an attarctive proposition. If on the other hand the airlines chose to close the door on negotiations, I doubt many travellers would go to the lengths of booking the train journey as a separate leg, especially if the booking restricts them to a given train and a delayed incoming flight might invalidate their train booking.

This relates to Orlando to Miami traffic of course. If you're looking at traffic from Orlando to intermediate points the story is different.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, or to supplement a flight with a rail leg. There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on AAF's business model.
> 
> If they can convince some airlines to codeshare with them, this would indeed be an attarctive proposition. If on the other hand the airlines chose to close the door on negotiations, I doubt many travellers would go to the lengths of booking the train journey as a separate leg, especially if the booking restricts them to a given train and a delayed incoming flight might invalidate their train booking.
> 
> This relates to Orlando to Miami traffic of course. If you're looking at traffic from Orlando to intermediate points the story is different.
Click to expand...

That is, of course, going to depend on the airline as much as anything. You have 41 airlines serving Orlando and 51 serving Miami...but in a lot of cases those are foreign carriers only doing one or two flights per day to the airport in question. Here's a chart (going by the websites of the airlines):

Airline MIA FLL PBI MCO Total
Aer Lingus X 1
Aeroflot X 1
AeroGal X 1
Aerolineas Argentinas X 1
Aeromexico X X 2
airberlin X 1
Air Canada X X X X 4
Air Europa X 1
Air France X 1
Air Transat X X 2
Alitalia X 1
Alaska Airlines X X 2
Allegiant Air X X 2
American Airlines X X X X 4
ArkeFly X 1
Aruba Airlines X 1
Avianca X X X 3
Avior Airlines X 1
Azul X X 2
Bahamasair X X X X 4
BoA X 1
British Airways X X 2
CanJet X 1
Caribbean Airlines X X X 3
Cayman Airways X 1
Condor X 1
COPA Airlines X X X 3
Delta Air Lines X X X X 4
Eastern Air Lines X 1
Emirates X 1
Frontier Airline X X X X 4
GOL X X 2
IBC Airways X X 2
Iberia X 1
Icelandair X 1
Insel Air X 1
Insel Air Aruba X 1
Interjet X 1
Jetairfly X 1
JetBlue X X X 3
LAN Airlines X X 2
Lufthansa X X 2
Magni Charters X 1
Miami Air X X 2
Norwegian X X 2
Qatar X 1
Santa Barbara Airlines X 1
Silver Airways X X X 3
SkyBahamas X 1
Southwest X X 2
Spirit X X X 3
Sun Country X X 2
Sunwing X X 2
Surinam Airways X 1
Swiftair X 1
Swiss International X 1
TAM Brazilian X X 2
TAP Portugal X 1
TAME X 1
Thomas Cook X X 2
Tiara Air Aruba X 1
Transaero X 1
United Airlines X X X X 4
Virgin America X X 2
Virgin Atlantic X X 2
Volaris X X 2
WestJet X X X 3
World Atlantic X X 2
Xtra Airways X 1
XL Airways France X 1

In general, I suspect that a _lot_ of those carriers would love nothing more than to consolidate down from serving multiple airports (if only to cut basing costs), but this is going to apply doubly for a lot of the foreign carriers. Additionally, a number of foreign carriers only serve a single airport...so code-sharing with AAF will make sense since it will allow them to advertise increased reach without having to set up a second base for one or two flights per day.


----------



## jis

For AAF to be seamlessly code shareable with the majors they have to have checked baggage service. I have not heard anything pro or con on that issue, but AFAIK they do not have a baggage car in their currently planned consists.


----------



## Brian_tampa

If I remember correctly, the new intermodal terminal at Orlando airport will have baggage check-in capabilities for departing airplane passengers. I would assume that would also mean the ability to pick up baggage at the train station for arriving airplane passengers who will be departing the airport on AAF or Sunrail.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> For AAF to be seamlessly code shareable with the majors they have to have checked baggage service. I have not heard anything pro or con on that issue, but AFAIK they do not have a baggage car in their currently planned consists.


When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it.

There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.


----------



## jis

The problem is that people who check their bags do it for a reading, and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service. Real easing a bag from checked state at an airport is not a problem.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The problem is that people who check their bags do it for a reading, and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service. Real easing a bag from checked state at an airport is not a problem.


Quite often the reason people check luggage is that

a) it may contain items you're not allowed in a carry on

b) the luggage exceeds the dimensions that the airline allows for a carry on

As trains are far less restrictive on both measures, I don't think checked baggage is a must.


----------



## jis

In customer surveys that United has done on people who could use the code share through Newark one thing that came out as an issue was no checked baggage on trains. Originally they had thought of expanding the code share considerably apparently, but then held off on it since they found they had to maintain their NEC connecting flights from Newark anyway or lose customers. So the jet and turboprop puddle jumpers in addition to mainline 737 flights continue to serve both the residual air market beyond Amtrak and the connecting passengers market. I would hasten to add though that checked baggage is not the only issue in lack of seamlessness. There are a couple other issues too apparently between United and Amtrak, one being the lack of sufficient integration between reservation systems. For example DB and Lufthansa is able to do a much more seamless operation in that area in Frankfurt. So there are ways to mitigate problems with seamlessness in areas other than checked baggage to make the overall experience attractive enough for people to use significantly.

Ideally if the code share worked truly seamlessly in Newark, Continental and now United should have been able to dispense with the need for deploying any of its own equipment for connecting to anywhere on the NEC reachable with a train ride of 3 hours or less. but that did not come to pass.

Of course things could be different in Orlando and I would certainly hope so, since it is not burdened with past traditions and possible lack of capacity and equipment and such as the whole New York area seems to be drowning under at present. In Orlando they have the possibility of thinking anew and building something better. Whether they will do that is to be seen.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cirdan said:


> This is exactly the sort of thing that will convince business travellers and up-segment leisure travellers to consider switching from the airlines.


In areas of the world where trains compete successfully with aircraft the primary attraction is speed and dependability. Food service is often minimal or non-existant.



Anderson said:


> There are plenty of cases where a flight to one of the relevant airports (MCO, WPB, FLL, MIA) will be far cheaper than one's ultimate destination, and especially when MCO is the cheap one (MIA and FLL have "expensive" reputations from what I recall while MCO has a "cheap" one) there will be plenty of cases where AAF can "steal" a passenger bound for South Florida from the airports there and get them to fly into MCO instead.


MCO, SFB, TPA, and FLL are all fairly cheap compared to MIA.



jis said:


> People who check their bags do it for a [reason], and they tend to avoid situations where they suddenly have to drag their checked bags along with them on what is supposed to be a leg in an itinerary that is supposed to be providing checked bag service.


Exactly. I don't check bags but I often travel with folks who do and lack of through checking is going to seriously impact their decision. If they get stuck carrying checked luggage for more than a short interchange, such as between a taxi and check-in desk or between customs and recheck, they won't be coming back. Luggage transfer needs to be as close to seamless as possible to keep things running smoothly.



cirdan said:


> When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.


Through checking needs to be in place to keep things running smoothly or else everything gets bogged down and counteracts the goal of poaching connecting travelers. The outbound check-in process is already among the most tedious and stressful stages of air travel. If the train is going to woo substantial numbers of through passengers they need to offer a seamless luggage handling experience. The recheck process is generally pretty simple because it's designed and staffed to handle rechecks that have already been reviewed for compliance and loaded into the tracking system. It is not designed or staffed to handle large numbers of new luggage checks.


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't follow your line of reasoning here. I'm no expert on luggage processing but I've seen a lot of what works and what doesn't over the years and I feel I have a good understanding of where the divisions occur.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't quite understand the point being made either. Actually, the airlines do the transfer of bags from just outside of the C&I checkpoint to the plane. There is a bag dropoff area, which is nothing like checking the bag in. They taker the bag, scan the tag and send it on its way. No checkin required. I do this multiple times a year in Newark both Terminals B and C. After dropping off the checked bag at the C&I checkpoint you proceed to whatever gate your flight is at with just your hand baggage, so the distance you have to drag your checked bag is just from the bag belt to the dropoff point, through the Customs checkpoint. This incidentally is standard procedure in many countries (and Schengen which is not quite a country) at the first port of entry, not just the US, as long as the subsequent flight is an domestic flight.

A person arriving by United whether it be international or domestic into Newark and connecting to an Amtrak code share basically has to reclaim their bags and then drag it up the escalators or elevators to the AirTrain, drag it into the AirTrain, go to the NEC station, drag it from the AirTrain to the Amtrak train and then find a place for the bags in usually what is an overcrowded train where you often have to walk through multiple cars to even find a seat (remember, Amtrak does not reserve assigned seats unlike say DB out of Frankfurt). It is a wholly unattractive and borderline painful experience. Given a choice between Amtrak code share and a puddle jumper to Philly, I know many choose the puddle jumper, even though that is also not the best of experiences. But at least the airline will handle your baggage for you all the way. The train connection is a worse experience.

For this reason, I believe as long as AAF does not provide checked baggage, many of the MCO - MIA flights will continue as is, perhaps downsized a bit. But they will not just disappear. If AAF provides European style assigned seat reservation, that will mitigate the pain quite a bit and will tilt thing a bit in favor of AAF, since you at least know precisely where you need to drag the bag to.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> When flying into the USA from a destination abroad (as I assume most of the airlines on your list are doing), unless I am mistaken, the procedure is that you collect your baggage at the first US airport you arrive, take it through customs and then re-check it. There would thus be no need for AAF to transfer checked baggage to or from airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't follow your line of reasoning here. I'm no expert on luggage processing but I've seen a lot of what works and what doesn't over the years and I feel I have a good understanding of where the divisions occur.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, I don't quite understand the point being made either. Actually, the airlines do the transfer of bags from just outside of the C&I checkpoint to the plane. There is a bag dropoff area, which is nothing like checking the bag in. They taker the bag, scan the tag and send it on its way. No checkin required. I do this multiple times a year in Newark both Terminals B and C. After dropping off the checked bag at the C&I checkpoint you proceed to whatever gate your flight is at with just your hand baggage, so the distance you have to drag your checked bag is just from the bag belt to the dropoff point, through the Customs checkpoint. This incidentally is standard procedure in many countries (and Schengen which is not quite a country) at the first port of entry, not just the US, as long as the subsequent flight is an domestic flight.
> A person arriving by United whether it be international or domestic into Newark and connecting to an Amtrak code share basically has to reclaim their bags and then drag it up the escalators or elevators to the AirTrain, drag it into the AirTrain, go to the NEC station, drag it from the AirTrain to the Amtrak train and then find a place for the bags in usually what is an overcrowded train where you often have to walk through multiple cars to even find a seat (remember, Amtrak does not reserve assigned seats unlike say DB out of Frankfurt). It is a wholly unattractive and borderline painful experience. Given a choice between Amtrak code share and a puddle jumper to Philly, I know many choose the puddle jumper, even though that is also not the best of experiences. But at least the airline will handle your baggage for you all the way. The train connection is a worse experience.
> 
> For this reason, I believe as long as AAF does not provide checked baggage, many of the MCO - MIA flights will continue as is, perhaps downsized a bit. But they will not just disappear. If AAF provides European style assigned seat reservation, that will mitigate the pain quite a bit and will tilt thing a bit in favor of AAF, since you at least know precisely where you need to drag the bag to.
Click to expand...

@jis
They will provide assigned seating. There was mention a long while ago from AAF that digital displays will be on the platforms to show where to line up for each train car.

Edit: I found two references online saying that AAF will indeed provide checked luggage on board. Between this and the Orlando intermodal station having baggage check-in counters for air travelers, I would suspect that AAF could code share with airlines if they can come to an agreement.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/08/details-revealed-about-all-aboard-florida-jobs.html

From the article:

Crew members with a strong hospitality background will be needed to help enhance the guest experience, as well as work on the train in positions ranging from luggage handling to dining car service.

http://palmbeachcivic.org/news/top-stories/1320-civic-association-directors-meet-with-all-aboard-florida-president-michael-reininger

From the article:

Amenities

These will be state-of-the-art trains, said Mr. Reininger. Think the new private Italian train line, not what we are used to here. From the All Aboard Florida website:

Dynamic WiFi: All Aboard Florida has invested into a beefed-up, high-bandwidth signal that it owns along the route, so passengers will have no problems doing work, playing games or listening to music during their ride.

Cafe car/bar car: During the three-hour ride, of course you might get hungry or thirsty, so youll have the option of visiting the dining car for a snack or the bar car for a drink with friends. All Aboard Florida also is looking into apps that would allow you to order your beverage or snack to be delivered to your seat on the train.

Seating configuration: Whether traveling with family, friends or alone on a business trip, riders can choose the type of seating configuration best suited for their party when booking tickets online. Each train will fit up to 400 passengers, and seats will be the same or larger than first-class airline seats. And you can check your luggage on the train, too.

Fully ADA-compliant: Along with wide aisles, the trains also will have level boarding with no steps, which will allow for wheelchairs, scooters and bikes to be able to wheel directly onto the train.

Edit: I like the possibility to order food or drinks from your phone while riding! That would be so cool! No need to get up and wait in a line in the cafe car. Wow this will be impressive service!


----------



## VentureForth

I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.

Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport.

If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours.

If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami?

Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.


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## Ryan

Rental cars and hotel shuttles.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Ideally if the code share worked truly seamlessly in Newark, Continental and now United should have been able to dispense with the need for deploying any of its own equipment for connecting to anywhere on the NEC reachable with a train ride of 3 hours or less. but that did not come to pass.


I doubt it would have gotten that far (the direct market into Washington would have survived, if nothing else, and I can't say where they were elsewhere on the JFK/LGA map), but I agree that a paring back would likely have happened.

As noted...I'm not sure how they're planning to do it, but the mention of checking luggage (but no baggage car) raises questions. Still, as noted, there are plenty of cases of folks checking a bag mainly because airlines have reeled back on the allowable "hand luggage"/carry-on luggage limits rather substantially over the years (and/or the wacky security rules have struck).


----------



## Caesar La Rock

VentureForth said:


> I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.
> 
> Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport.
> 
> If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours.
> 
> If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami?
> 
> Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.


There are bus routes that do connect to theme parks from the airport. Link 42 services Florida Mall, Orlando Premium Outlets International Drive, Wet N Wild, and other places on I-Drive.

111 also services Florida Mall, before jumping on the 528 to head to Destination Parkway and Seaworld. Now moving aside from that, the airport being the terminus will be interesting. I think the Orlando station will be similar to the Newark Liberty International Airport station in New Jersey.


----------



## jis

In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.


So the Maglev is actually happening. That's good to know; I know the plans had been on the table for a while but at the same time they were always a bit nebulous and seemed to be pushed by an oddball businessman IIRC.

Edit: To be clear, this would mean your transit options are as follows for major destinations:

Disney: Has their own system of buses from OIA to the parks and resorts.

I-Drive: Maglev to Convention Center, I-Drive Circulator, and/or hotel buses.

Downtown, Winter Park, etc.: SunRail (once the airport connector is finished).

Kissimmee: Possible SunRail-to-SunRail connection?

I suspect that at least some hotels will pull shuttles back from OIA and move them to Maglev stops for much of the day (it'll save them what can be a rather long trip from hotels not right around the airport).


----------



## Devil's Advocate

VentureForth said:


> I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly. Orlando airport has LOUSY public transportation. One (or two?) busses that service the NE portion of the city, and don't even connect to the major theme parks. For those, you take Mears at a hefty premium. Or even a cab has to charge extra from departing from the airport. If I want to go to Miami, I'd fly to Miami - not MCO then take the train for another three hours. If I live in Orlando, do I drive to the airport and pay their expensive parking to take a three hour trip to Miami? Lots of this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it'll all work out in the end. The Miami terminal makes sense to me - just not MCO.



Orlando is a poorly zoned and largely unplanned soulless suburban amoeba typical of modern US cities. There is no 34th street equivalent and even if there was there is no method for pedestrians to move between attractions without assistance.

MCO may be a sad little airport that is disconnected from virtually everything and yet it can still make the most sense out of what's available to choose from. As already mentioned at MCO you have easy access to rentals and shuttles, which are the only solutions I've found for moving around Orlando at a reasonable speed. Orlando also had Uber last I checked but thanks to the taxi mafia that solution is unlikely to last. Although buses do run through Orlando they appear to exist primarily to serve people who work low paying jobs at the numerous theme parks and resorts. Trying to use the Orlando bus system as a tourist can be amazingly frustrating and time consuming, regardless of where you begin your journey.

Bottom line is that there is very little in the way of realistic alternatives that are likely to succeed in areas where MCO is likely to fail. Not to mention that actionable incentives for future solutions will remain strongest at MCO for the foreseeable future. Personally I've had my fill of Orlando. I've done the perpetually packed theme park thing, I've done the resort hotel thing, I've done the big business event thing, and I've tried to find the "real" Orlando in between. So far as I can tell what you see is what you'll get because there's little if anything to find beneath the tacky plaster surface.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Penny could probably give you the inside dope on the real Orlando Chris!

She's lived there a long time and stays,away from the tourist stuff!( and her Limo Service and Hi-Rise Condo are nice perks for visiting AUers! Orlando could work on their food choices though, Burger King is where she takes visitors! 

And our New Jersey ex-pats that live in the area really like living in Florida, especially in the Winter!

Unfortunately Austin seems to be following the Orlando model, it brings to mind the old Country Song; " You'll Lose a Good Thing!"


----------



## Ryan

jimhudson said:


> Burger King is where she takes visitors!


I didn't even get that!


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> In addition a dedicated monorail/Maglev connection is being built from the Orlando Airport Intermodal Center to I-Drive, and eventually SunRail will have a link to the same center. It is part of a huge plan, and does not just stand isolated by itself.


I'd like to see more info on this. Where is there info that the monorail is actually being built? I read an article in Orlando Business Journal, but it was vague. Details are sketchy but they expect to start construction in July and service in 2016? And, as of the April article, they haven't received their permits yet? 
When I see an article about ground moving, I'll move from skeptic to supporter.

But this doesn't exactly look like Shanghai's maglev. Maybe a modern monorail using some maglev tech. And solar power in the event of a power failure? Why not just keep the batteries charged with real electricity while it's on?

A lot of this sounds like save the baby seal enthusiasm without a lot of reality. Forgive my skepticism; at least FEC owned the ROW where they plan to start and the trials for getting the rest have been expected and documented.

This looks more like a half baked plan to copy Las Vegas' failed (yet somehow still existing) monorail.


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## jis

I don't know when or if this specific one will get built. But it is what Orlando's master plan says. That's all. Eventually something will get built. This is Florida, so one cannot say anything about anything until it happens.

Devil's Advocate has already provided most of the reason why MCO makes more sense than anywhere else in Orlando. I suppose somewhere near Disney would have been another alternative but it would lack the other inter connectivity facilities already available and planned at MCO.

So that is the way it is. There is no alternate plan and there is no real plan to revisit this decision so carping about it at present is mostly whistling in the wind.


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## Ryan

Which is what AU can specialize in.


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## xyzzy

Lots of invective about Orlando. I have no connection to the city and haven't been there in five years. But I hear the same invective about sprawl and poor zoning from lots of people about other cities, too. Raleigh, for one, where I do live. The fact is, these cities are sprawling because (some) people do want to live there. Otherwise the cities wouldn't be sprawling more! Maybe these cities are not for everyone. I understand that. If someone wants the intensely urban environment, there are plenty to choose from. But I suggest a bit of tolerance. I don't disparage the highly urbanized areas for being noisy, filthy, unfriendly, generally dilapidated, and often crime-ridden. It's just a choice -- for people who have the resources to choose where they live, that is -- and the choice has consequences. Likewise for the suburban-oriented areas. Anyone who voluntarily moves to outer Raleigh and intends to depend on public transit needs a brain MRI.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> I don't know when or if it will actually this specific one will get built. But it is what Orlando's master plan says. That's all. Eventually something will get built. This is Florida, so one cannot say anything about anything until it happens.
> 
> Devil's Advocate has already provided most of the reason why MCO makes more sense than anywhere else in Orlando. I suppose somewhere near Disney would have been another alternative but it would lack the other inter connectivity facilities already available and planned at MCO.
> 
> So that is the way it is. There is no alternate plan and there is no real plan to revisit this decision so carping about it at present is mostly whistling in the wind.


I think I've said this before, but I do think there will be a Disney station eventually. The "eventually" bit is largely down to if/when the Tampa extension happens (I'm thinking "not within the next decade"), but given Disney's attitude towards the HSR plan they're presumably going to be open to working with this (and likely willing to pay for a station, though not the tracks and whatnot).


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## VentureForth

I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.


Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd_ tentatively_ be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.

Of course, if the Tampa extension to FEC goes through my instinct would be to try and "do a deal" to split all the Florida trains at OIA into a Miami section and a Tampa section (either via through cars or via full, separate trains).


----------



## Eric S

xyzzy said:


> Lots of invective about Orlando. I have no connection to the city and haven't been there in five years. But I hear the same invective about sprawl and poor zoning from lots of people about other cities, too. Raleigh, for one, where I do live. The fact is, these cities are sprawling because (some) people do want to live there. Otherwise the cities wouldn't be sprawling more! Maybe these cities are not for everyone. I understand that. If someone wants the intensely urban environment, there are plenty to choose from. But I suggest a bit of tolerance. I don't disparage the highly urbanized areas for being noisy, filthy, unfriendly, generally dilapidated, and often crime-ridden. It's just a choice -- for people who have the resources to choose where they live, that is -- and the choice has consequences. Likewise for the suburban-oriented areas. Anyone who voluntarily moves to outer Raleigh and intends to depend on public transit needs a brain MRI.


Wow! Seriously?

Noisy, filthy, unfriendly, dilapidated, crime-ridden.

Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

VentureForth said:


> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.


You can start to advocate that sooner then you think, since I found the routing for the proposed Maglev. Though I'd wait until construction starts then you can go in that direction.


----------



## Anderson

That strikes me as a somewhat odd routing. Unless it's _really_ being done on the cheap, I'd think that the Disney leg is _extremely_ indirect and rather excessive in length. Really, the only explanations I can think of are that either (1) WDW and/or Universal didn't want a direct link to one another or (2) the Maglev folks were worried that putting lines to both destinations out of the north side of OIA would overwhelm the system.


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## cirdan

Many European railroads that supposedly offer airline luggage check-in in reality offer something else.

You normally drop off your bag at the station the day before your flight (or if you're lucky you drop it off at the hotel reception and they take it for you). The bag doesn't go as checked luggage on the same train you are on. For that you would need dedicated baggage cars on assorted trains with appropriate security which most railroads do not have. Instead the bag is sent to the airport by van.


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## xyzzy

Eric S said:


> Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.


But that's just projecting blame into a nameless, faceless, malevolent government disconnected from the will of the alleged majority. Ultimately government is we ourselves. In most cases, jurisdictions that pursue anti-sprawl policies are simply bypassed -- if not locally, then nationally. That's the push of the free-market economy.

I agree that policies have intermediate-term influence one way or the other, but the influence is finite in scope as well as being subject to the long-term wishes of the electorate. Driving a dagger completely through the heart of sprawl generally means restricting the rights of outlying property owners to develop their real estate, and if taken too far such a policy is subject to being invalidated by the courts.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> I'm still completely befuddled why they are putting the Orlando terminal at MCO. The entire beauty of taking the train to New York is stepping out on 34th street, not at JFK's terminal. If I wanted to go to JFK, I'd fly.


Amtrak seems to think serving Miami airport is as good as serving downtown Miami. Until AAF came along, Tri-Rail thought the same.

If you're assuming most people are driving to the train, downtown stations are not necessarily the best option.

Orlando (in my eyes at least) still has very much of a car-based culture. More so than Miami. So what worked for Miami should work for Orlando.

Besides which, there is a project to extend Sunrail to the airport there.


----------



## cirdan

xyzzy said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Suburban sprawl does not simply occur because people choose to live there. It occurs, in part, because of specific government policies and actions. Policies that often prevent and prohibit traditional development and require sprawling suburban and exurban development. Policies that make transit service nearly impossible (or at least extremely costly). Policies that essentially prohibit lower-income housing, essentially relegating the poor to live in older urban neighborhoods instead.
> 
> 
> 
> But that's just projecting blame into a nameless, faceless, malevolent government disconnected from the will of the alleged majority. Ultimately government is we ourselves. In most cases, jurisdictions that pursue anti-sprawl policies are simply bypassed -- if not locally, then nationally. That's the push of the free-market economy.
> 
> I agree that policies have intermediate-term influence one way or the other, but the influence is finite in scope as well as being subject to the long-term wishes of the electorate. Driving a dagger completely through the heart of sprawl generally means restricting the rights of outlying property owners to develop their real estate, and if taken too far such a policy is subject to being invalidated by the courts.
Click to expand...

Government interference can hurt both ways. In many downtown areas for example, construction and zoning laws are preventing urban rebirth by, for example, mandating a minimum ratio of parking spaces to office space, and hence tying up vast amounts of land and real estate that could be developed more efficiently in a transit based culture.


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## Ryan

xyzzy said:


> Ultimately government is we ourselves.


How incredibly naive.

Even if it were true, sprawl happens because people don't have to pay for all the negative externalities that come along with it. Raise the gas tax to reflect the true cost of driving and you'll see sprawl virtually disappear. But hey, as long as you can be a free rider and spew as much pollution as you care to, there's no reason not to keep on spreading out.


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## Eric S

I profoundly disagree that suburban and exurban sprawl occurs because of the free market at work. However, I'll leave it at that, since this is getting far astray from FEC/AAF.


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## xyzzy

My family has been in government and politics for a long time. What's naive is to blame behind-the-scenes forces for why things are the way they are without making the electorate accountable -- or without being open to the possibility that the electorate actually has what the majority of it wants. Of course there are political actors involved, some of whom do push for vertical growth and mass transit because it's in their self-interest (especially when a proposed rail line would run adjacent to properties they've purchased on spec), many of whom push for horizontal growth and no mass transit because it's in their self-interest. There are always political actors. They come and go. But if you think votes don't count or will not ultimately override the agendas of political actors, run for office or get involved in a campaign or the apparatus of a local political party (either red or blue). I have that t-shirt.

To bring this back to trains and FEC/AAF, it's fun to see a private-sector initiative for passenger rail give it a go. Maybe it succeeds, maybe it fails. With respect to Amtrak, if the American public really wanted a superior passenger train network, we'd get it. Projects like SEHSR would be funded instead of being studied and studied and studied without any progress toward implementation. But at present and for the last 40 years, the majority of Americans have shown tepid support for passenger trains and thus we see the consequences.


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## Caesar La Rock

Getting this back on topic. Speaking of the Orlando stop.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-train-ridership-orlando-20150712-story.html


----------



## Paulus

Anderson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd_ tentatively_ be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.
Click to expand...

But why would FEC be in favor of it? It's a significantly slower train that can't keep a schedule worth a darn and that will be directly competing with their own trains.


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd_ tentatively_ be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But why would FEC be in favor of it? It's a significantly slower train that can't keep a schedule worth a darn and that will be directly competing with their own trains.
Click to expand...

What is more important is that the current SunRail plans for connecting to the Orlando Airport Multimodal Center is to a stub end station with no connection to AAF. We heard this from the proverbial horse's mouth when we visited the unRail operations and maintenance center in Debary earlier this year.Indeed, it is not clear why AAF would want such a connection. They have stated several times that they have no interest in going to Tampa, and yet we keep insisting here that that is what they want to do all along. Oh well....

Anyway, forget about Amtrak run-through onto AAF tracks.Won't happen, and there is absolutely no logical reason to make it happen. It would be going against the agreement that AAF had to keep STB off their backs. Besides, Paulus' question is very apt. What exactly is in it for AAF to get a headache of a slower train on their 125mph tracks? Also, Amtrak would not want to have their own toll negotiations with Central Florida Toll Authority now, would they?  If Amtrak is to run on FEC they should simply run JAX to Miami.

And BTW, it is Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida south of Mangonia.Park No CSX anymore. The tracks are owned by FDOT and managed by SFRTA and operated by Tri-Rail (reporting mark TRCX). Similarly around Orlando, between Deland and Poinciana, there is no CSX anymore. That segment is dispatched and operated by SunRail from their Debary base. CSX is just another tenent like Amtrak, on that segment. We from the Florida Passenger


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd_ tentatively_ be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But why would FEC be in favor of it? It's a significantly slower train that can't keep a schedule worth a darn and that will be directly competing with their own trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is more important is that the current SunRail plans for connecting to the Orlando Airport Multimodal Center is to a stub end station with no connection to AAF. We heard this from the proverbial horse's mouth when we visited the unRail operations and maintenance center in Debary earlier this year.Indeed, it is not clear why AAF would want such a connection. They have stated several times that they have no interest in going to Tampa, and yet we keep insisting here that that is what they want to do all along. Oh well....
> Anyway, forget about Amtrak run-through onto AAF tracks.Won't happen, and there is absolutely no logical reason to make it happen. It would be going against the agreement that AAF had to keep STB off their backs. Besides, Paulus' question is very apt. What exactly is in it for AAF to get a headache of a slower train on their 125mph tracks? Also, Amtrak would not want to have their own toll negotiations with Central Florida Toll Authority now, would they?  If Amtrak is to run on FEC they should simply run JAX to Miami.
> 
> And BTW, it is Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida south of Mangonia.Park No CSX anymore. The tracks are owned by FDOT and managed by SFRTA and operated by Tri-Rail (reporting mark TRCX). Similarly around Orlando, between Deland and Poinciana, there is no CSX anymore. That segment is dispatched and operated by SunRail from their Debary base. CSX is just another tenent like Amtrak, on that segment. We from the Florida Passenger
Click to expand...

I can think of two reasons why AAF would want separate Sunrail platforms at the airport station:
1. It would allow AAF trains unimpeded access to their primary maintenance facility just south of the airport. No worrying about Sunrail trains getting in the way of deadhead moves to and from the maintenance facility.

2. Run through tracks for AAF that are not part of Sunrail will enable future expansion to tampa. A look at the track plans for the maintenance facility shows what appear to be possible mainline tracks that bypass the yard and shops there and go directly from the airport station to the west end of the facility.

3. AAF seems to want to control access to their platforms. Look at the Miami arrangement with TriRail. No shared platforms there either.

I don't think they have stated that they have no interest in going to Tampa. Just not at this time or until they see how successful the initial segment is. I am aware that they have had discussions with FDOT regarding keeping the former HSR right of way "envelop" in the median of I4 intact between the convention center in Orlando and downtown tampa. This despite FDOTs I4 ultimate construction in Orlando and FDOTs future "Lexus" lanes planned for I4 between Lakeland and Tampa. Also, there has been ongoing communications between AAF/FECI and the leadership here in Tampa over the past years. It is my understanding that Tampa/Hillsborough County understands what needs to be done to facilitate AAF expanding into Tampa.

Also, the Sunrail tracks would be separated from the AAF tracks at all times. There would be no commingling of the two systems.

I would put the chance of a Tampa expansion at equal to expansion to Jacksonville, but only if the first segment is successful.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will say this. MCO is a better location for transfers than Amtrak's ORL. If the monorail happens, and if it connects with Sunrail at Sand Lake Rd., then I'll be the first to advocate moving the Orlando Amtrak station there, whether the current location is historical or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, if you can get the CSX-airport connection going (e.g. the planned SunRail connection) and you could successfully platform and run through Amtrak's trains at the planned OIA station, I'd_ tentatively_ be in favor of re-routing Amtrak over the new FEC tracks. The problem is that (A') you'd lose several stations (Sebring is more important than Okeechobee); (B') you'd need to split trains to serve Tampa; and (C') you'd lose Tampa-Miami intrastate traffic, which is a non-trivial consideration. The offset is that you'd knock about two hours off of the Orlando-Miami time, maybe a bit less if you switch back to CSX/Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But why would FEC be in favor of it? It's a significantly slower train that can't keep a schedule worth a darn and that will be directly competing with their own trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is more important is that the current SunRail plans for connecting to the Orlando Airport Multimodal Center is to a stub end station with no connection to AAF. We heard this from the proverbial horse's mouth when we visited the unRail operations and maintenance center in Debary earlier this year.Indeed, it is not clear why AAF would want such a connection. They have stated several times that they have no interest in going to Tampa, and yet we keep insisting here that that is what they want to do all along. Oh well....
> 
> Anyway, forget about Amtrak run-through onto AAF tracks.Won't happen, and there is absolutely no logical reason to make it happen. It would be going against the agreement that AAF had to keep STB off their backs. Besides, Paulus' question is very apt. What exactly is in it for AAF to get a headache of a slower train on their 125mph tracks? Also, Amtrak would not want to have their own toll negotiations with Central Florida Toll Authority now, would they?  If Amtrak is to run on FEC they should simply run JAX to Miami.
> 
> And BTW, it is Tri-Rail tracks in South Florida south of Mangonia.Park No CSX anymore. The tracks are owned by FDOT and managed by SFRTA and operated by Tri-Rail (reporting mark TRCX). Similarly around Orlando, between Deland and Poinciana, there is no CSX anymore. That segment is dispatched and operated by SunRail from their Debary base. CSX is just another tenent like Amtrak, on that segment. We from the Florida Passenger
Click to expand...

Frankly, the issue is that Amtrak is going to lose...I'd say probably about 80% of their "native" south-of-Orlando business at a minimum (e.g. passengers traveling from ORL to points south), if not more. A bus-to-OIA connection to Tampa for FEC would probably make a substantial dent in Amtrak's TPA-MIA business as well. Unlike WAS-NYP (which Amtrak excludes from the LD trains to avoid being swamped with local traffic), ORL-MIA is likely to end up as basically a "ghost town" for the trains if AAF is successful.

Ergo, I can see a strong argument for Amtrak to make Winter Park (or Deland...or maybe some added stop in the northern part of the Orlando area) the last boarding station on the SB trains. I find it kind of hard to see either Beeline or AAF viewing a train that is _exclusively_ carrying passengers from northern Florida and beyond to Miami as a competitor to their trains.

Edit: There's another question that comes to mind. If AAF has "no interest in going to Tampa" then why did they have a map showing Tampa as a planned extension? The link below, though on another site, is _their_ map:

http://www.tampabay.org/sites/default/files/styles/scale_880w/public/images/blog/All-Aboard-Florida-map.jpg?itok=akxXf26g

I'm all open to hearing that they decided to _drop _Tampa (though I'd be curious as to why), but they initially said that after Orlando they intended to extend to Jacksonville and Tampa...so really, we're "insisting" on it because they said it numerous times and have never given a public indication that they were dropping it (indeed, one of the support quotes on their website mentions Tampa as well). That most of the material on the site is focused on Orlando-Miami isn't a shocker since that's what is underway.


----------



## jis

I don't think Central Florida Toll folks would care too much about what Amtrak does. A train or two a day which already exists going another way, specially if it does not stop north of WPB would be a wash for them. Although I understand they did extract a small bit of blood out of AAF for their projected MCO - WPB traffic, but then we are talking 32 higher speed trains running highly reliable clockface schedule, which is a different ballgame altogether. I am sure they plan to extract more blood for MCO to Cocoa/Melbourne traffic when the Brevard stations comes into being. It is all based on figures that they had used in the Bond issuing document, so it does make sense.

But I still cannot see why AAF would want to have Amtrak run on the MCO - Cocoa segment. There literally is no positive in it for them and only some amount of dispatching pain. I think Amtrak would be better off concentrating on running JAX to Miami on FEC, even though that too adds dispatching pain for FEC. But I think they might be willing to live with that since there is little that is negative for them otherwise, even if the decided to run their own trains to JAX.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> I don't think Central Florida Toll folks would care too much about what Amtrak does. A train or two a day which already exists going another way, specially if it does not stop north of WPB would be a wash for them. Although I understand they did extract a small bit of blood out of AAF for their projected MCO - WPB traffic, but then we are talking 32 higher speed trains running highly reliable clockface schedule, which is a different ballgame altogether. I am sure they plan to extract more blood for MCO to Cocoa/Melbourne traffic when the Brevard stations comes into being. It is all based on figures that they had used in the Bond issuing document, so it does make sense.
> 
> But I still cannot see why AAF would want to have Amtrak run on the MCO - Cocoa segment. There literally is no positive in it for them and only some amount of dispatching pain. I think Amtrak would be better off concentrating on running JAX to Miami on FEC, even though that too adds dispatching pain for FEC. But I think they might be willing to live with that since there is little that is negative for them otherwise, even if the decided to run their own trains to JAX.


IIRC the "small bit of blood" AAF has to pay comes to...I think it was something like $1 or so per one-way ticket (so probably $1-2m/yr if only applied to WPB-MCO tickets, and more if applied more generally).

The dispatching pain would seem to be limited IMHO. As set up right now, that's a passenger-only corridor with no more than two trains per hour really foreseeable. Worst case, Amtrak has to wait 10-15 minutes or "hop in" behind an AAF train. I think Amtrak could pull some net gains in terms of reduced costs if they shift to FEC's tracks, if only by getting rid of a few stations.

On the JAX front, I think it is generally accepted that AAF wouldn't quite be running hourly service that far up (at least not to start with), and to be fair if the Palmetto/Silver Palm were to be run down those tracks the hours would be so far off of FEC's main operating ones (even assuming the train were slowed down so as not to cause freight problems) that it is hard to see it as a competitor. The other two trains (Star and Meteor) might be a slightly different story (Amtrak has estimated that such operations would likely be revenue-incremental for the Silvers IIRC), but even there...a pair of vaguely-reliable trains primarily catering to a different market would likely not be an issue, and I think FEC could probably work out an agreement with Amtrak to not undercut them on price and/or restrict local ticket sales to reduce other issues.

I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.


AAF and SunRail may have the same gauge but the platform heights are different. So it wouldn't make much sense for them to try and share platforms.

There may well be some emergency track connection, permitting for example the transfer of track maintenance trains. But such would be by mutual agreement bettween the two railroads.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.
> 
> 
> 
> AAF and SunRail may have the same gauge but the platform heights are different. So it wouldn't make much sense for them to try and share platforms.
> 
> There may well be some emergency track connection, permitting for example the transfer of track maintenance trains. But such would be by mutual agreement bettween the two railroads.
Click to expand...

Point taken. I'm frankly so used to "everyone uses the low platform" station situations with Amtrak (at least, from WAS southwards) that this didn't even jump to mind.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.


Perhaps the fact that they have different height platforms, and also that they approach the station from two completely different directions have any bearing on this?

Also why would you unnecessarily put in additional switches and signals where none are really needed for the currently planned operational pattern. By keeping them separate, the SunRail side can be dispatched from Debary and the AAF side from wherever they dispacth AAF and the two centers do not need to do any coordination. That would seem to be a significant simplification and money saver.

So for me, if they did connect at MCO that would have been more of a facepalm than what they are doing now. But then again, I guess I am more of a "what does it take to operate this efficiently while providing the best service" kinda guy.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the fact that they have different height platforms, and also that they approach the station from two completely different directions have any bearing on this?
> Also why would you unnecessarily put in additional switches and signals where none are really needed for the currently planned operational pattern. By keeping them separate, the SunRail side can be dispatched from Debary and the AAF side from wherever they dispacth AAF and the two centers do not need to do any coordination. That would seem to be a significant simplification and money saver.
> 
> So for me, if they did connect at MCO that would have been more of a facepalm than what they are doing now. But then again, I guess I am more of a "what does it take to operate this efficiently while providing the best service" kinda guy.
Click to expand...

Explorations on Google Earth and in real life show that when two railroads approach one another, and there isn't already a connection some way further up or down, that there is often a physical connection between the two at the easiest location. I guess in the bigger picture of things extra switches don't cost much and you never know when you might need them. If such switches are padlocked and clipped they don't interfere with anybody's signals and you can dispatch both sides as if there wasn't a connection but still transfer stuff when an emergency or special situation arises. Sometimes you even find spurs connecting museums or metros to freight railroads. Apart from maybe the once in 30 years delivery of new trains, I cannot see any purpose in that.

So in this case the question would be

1) what is the use case, under what circumstances and how often during the lifetime of the equipment is this likely to occur?

2) what are the alternatives and how long a detour would be required?

I don't have enough local knowledge to answer either of these questions, but my gut feeling is that it's a no.

But maybe with the AAF/Siemens maintenance plant being nearby, there might be a use case for delivering supplies or equipment, but this depends on the viability of alternative routeings.


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.
> 
> 
> 
> AAF and SunRail may have the same gauge but the platform heights are different. So it wouldn't make much sense for them to try and share platforms.
> 
> There may well be some emergency track connection, permitting for example the transfer of track maintenance trains. But such would be by mutual agreement bettween the two railroads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Point taken. I'm frankly so used to "everyone uses the low platform" station situations with Amtrak (at least, from WAS southwards) that this didn't even jump to mind.
Click to expand...

 But the same argument goes for working with Tri Rail. They use low platforms like SunRail.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.
> 
> 
> 
> AAF and SunRail may have the same gauge but the platform heights are different. So it wouldn't make much sense for them to try and share platforms.
> 
> There may well be some emergency track connection, permitting for example the transfer of track maintenance trains. But such would be by mutual agreement bettween the two railroads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Point taken. I'm frankly so used to "everyone uses the low platform" station situations with Amtrak (at least, from WAS southwards) that this didn't even jump to mind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the same argument goes for working with Tri Rail. They use low platforms like SunRail.
Click to expand...

AAF is probably going to tell Tri-Rail to spring for low-level platforms at various stops (and/or work out agreements to add high-level platforms if/when AAF seeks to add infill stations).

jis: My inclination is "how do I reduce costs while not seriously impacting service". SunRail and AAF using entirely separate tracks strikes me as a situation where you're going to end up with several miles of underused double-tracking (SunRail will probably want/need it if their service frequencies go over twice-hourly; AAF seems inclined to double-track the approaches as well...but four tracks on approach seems both unnecessary and probably a waste of space (of which I'm not sure how much they have to work with...I haven't seen detailed site plans for the station yet, but most maps seem to imply a northerly approach for both systems).


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to say...the idea of two same-gauge rail systems on more or less the same level entering the same station from the same side and not connecting is truly facepalm-worthy. At least when this is done with, say, a subway system it's usually because the lines are on separate levels. I would really think it would make more sense to have AAF and SunRail use a single double-track line to access the station...it isn't like either of them would likely ever have the traffic to overload such a line.
> 
> 
> 
> AAF and SunRail may have the same gauge but the platform heights are different. So it wouldn't make much sense for them to try and share platforms.
> 
> There may well be some emergency track connection, permitting for example the transfer of track maintenance trains. But such would be by mutual agreement bettween the two railroads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Point taken. I'm frankly so used to "everyone uses the low platform" station situations with Amtrak (at least, from WAS southwards) that this didn't even jump to mind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the same argument goes for working with Tri Rail. They use low platforms like SunRail.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AAF is probably going to tell Tri-Rail to spring for low-level platforms at various stops (and/or work out agreements to add high-level platforms if/when AAF seeks to add infill stations).
> jis: My inclination is "how do I reduce costs while not seriously impacting service". SunRail and AAF using entirely separate tracks strikes me as a situation where you're going to end up with several miles of underused double-tracking (SunRail will probably want/need it if their service frequencies go over twice-hourly; AAF seems inclined to double-track the approaches as well...but four tracks on approach seems both unnecessary and probably a waste of space (of which I'm not sure how much they have to work with...I haven't seen detailed site plans for the station yet, but most maps seem to imply a northerly approach for both systems).
Click to expand...

@anderson

The new third track (being construction at this time) for freight bypass around the FTL and WPB station sites looks like it could be used as a second track for a low level platform for TriRail. AAF is saying the third track is to divert freight trains around the station site during construction, but it is a permanent track meant to be used for freight trains in the future.

At Orlando, the Sunrail approach is from the south. They will use the existing OUC spur branch and branch off of it south of the new AAF maintenance shops complex. As I have previously stated, AAF does indeed want to design their system to allow for future expansion to Tampa. That is why the track plans I have seen for the maintenance facility appear to have two main tracks at the far northern edge of the facility that go nowhere but towards the west end of it. Of course, that is where the connection from AAF to the OUC spur is planned. I believe if the Tampa extension gets built, it will follow the same planned route as the cancelled HSR project, which is exactly where the two main tracks I refer to are headed to.

There is plenty of room south of the the new station at the airport for two sets of double track. I would not rule out a future interlocking between the two systems. Where things get cramped is north of the new station where a AAF has to make its way just to the east of the existing terminal. The maglev or light rail system will run parallel AAF to the north through the airport property and then head west.


----------



## jis

SunRail will use the existing ROW used by the power station lead. So I will be surprised if they have a northerly approach since that track skirts the airport to its south, AFAIR just north of 417 but way south of the airport. The siding to the power house passes under 528 quite a ways to the east of the 528/417 interchange. There will be a lead built from it to the west of 417 to get to the station is how it was explained to me by the SunRail folks during our Debary visit. So I can't visualize where the two would run parallel for several miles. Also I got the impression that the airport connection will be a single track possibly even single stub end platform thing to keep the need for scarce funds to the minimum. Nobody knows where it is going to be funded from as of now apparently.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> SunRail will use the existing ROW used by the power station lead. So I will be surprised if they have a northerly approach since that track skirts the airport to its south, AFAIR just north of 417 but way south of the airport. The siding to the power house passes under 528 quite a ways to the east of the 528/417 interchange. There will be a lead built from it to the west of 417 to get to the station is how it was explained to me by the SunRail folks during our Debary visit. So I can't visualize where the two would run parallel for several miles. Also I got the impression that the airport connection will be a single track possibly even single stub end platform thing to keep the need for scarce funds to the minimum. Nobody knows where it is going to be funded from as of now apparently.


I didn't realize this. This makes me understand your previous statements better and indeed I agree it is unlikely that there will be a track connection.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> SunRail will use the existing ROW used by the power station lead. So I will be surprised if they have a northerly approach since that track skirts the airport to its south, AFAIR just north of 417 but way south of the airport. The siding to the power house passes under 528 quite a ways to the east of the 528/417 interchange. There will be a lead built from it to the west of 417 to get to the station is how it was explained to me by the SunRail folks during our Debary visit. So I can't visualize where the two would run parallel for several miles. Also I got the impression that the airport connection will be a single track possibly even single stub end platform thing to keep the need for scarce funds to the minimum. Nobody knows where it is going to be funded from as of now apparently.


I find the odds of it not at least having either a double platform or a passing siding to be...well, let's just say that not doing so would present real operational issues.

As to the line being used...sorry, I was looking at another of the lines in that part of Orlando (southern Orlando is littered with tracks and I've never been able to mentally place the power plant vis-a-vis the airport...all I know is that I can see it from McCoy's).


----------



## jis

I think practically speaking they will have a single platform with two tracks at MCO. At least initially there will probably not be a passing siding enroute from the SunRail main line to MCO since an hourly service can be operated without one.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> I think practically speaking they will have a single platform with two tracks at MCO. At least initially there will probably not be a passing siding enroute from the SunRail main line to MCO since an hourly service can be operated without one.


That makes sense. Only having a single track at a single platform seems (A) like it is being _overly_ cheap and (B) runs into all sorts of room for an operational meltdown since you can't get a train inbound until the last one that came in drops off its passengers and more or less gets back to Sand Lake.


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## jis

The junction is quite a bit south of Sand Lake and it is a Wye junction. The pattern will most likely be Deland - Airport - Poinciana and vice versa for those trains that go to the airport. There will be addition through trains bypassing the airport on the main Lin most likely specially during rush hours.


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## cirdan

Talkng about the (potential) Tampa extension, I only kust realized by looking at the map that Tampa is actually slightly south of Orlando.

Miami to Tampa via Orlanda is thus going to be a bit of a dog leg, with the advantages of high speed being negated by the detour required.

Maybe this is why AAF are not actively pursuing thsi right now.

Tampa to destinations north makes much more sense though, so maybe Tampa won't start geting serious until after the Jacksonville part has been achieved.


----------



## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Talkng about the (potential) Tampa extension, I only kust realized by looking at the map that Tampa is actually slightly south of Orlando.Miami to Tampa via Orlanda is thus going to be a bit of a dog leg, with the advantages of high speed being negated by the detour required.Maybe this is why AAF are not actively pursuing thsi right now.Tampa to destinations north makes much more sense though, so maybe Tampa won't start geting serious until after the Jacksonville part has been achieved.


Downtown Tampa to downtown Miami is about 4:30-4:45 hours by car. The problem with driving is that if going to Miami (not so much Ft Lauderdale or WPB), the traffic is horrible the last 20 miles into Miami. I've been in traffic jams on 826 more than I care to remember. Not to mention that on weekends, I-75 can be very busy with congestion from around Ft Myers to Naples. 
The dogleg isnt too bad if AAF can run at 125 mph between the Orlando airport and downtown Tampa and have only 1 stop. It is about 80-85 miles which means about 45 minutes. So a 3:45 trip via Orlando on AAF vs 4:30 is competitive with driving.

The main negative to expanding to Tampa is the lack of a good bus system here. And honestly, Orlando is only marginally better for bus service I've been told by friends there. Here, we need to increase frequencies and extend service later at night on more routes. One positive is that a main bus hub is right next to the likely location of any train station downtown.

AAF has told me they aren't considering any expansion (Tampa or Jacksonville) until the first route proves to be successful. So we have at least 3 years before any serious discussion of expansion.

Edit: actually the estimated downtown Tampa to WPB schedule time of 2:45-3:00 hrs on AAF is also about half hour faster than driving via hwy 60 and the turnpike.


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## Anderson

Brian,

Thanks for the info there. I'm trying to sort out the tea leaves on this and what I'm thinking is the following:
(1) AAF is going to get their Orlando-Miami line running. At the same time they'll probably run a feasibility study (not too expensive and it gets it out of the way) on the Jacksonville line (since that requires almost no new ROW, just re-double-tracking the existing line).

(2) Once Orlando-Miami is running, and assuming that it ramps up roughly in line with what they're shooting for, they'll focus on making Jacksonville happen (EIS, etc.). This will probably be accompanied by some feasibility work on Tampa.

(3) Assuming that Jacksonville gets going (I figure that will only take 2-3 years...unlike Orlando, where there's new ROW and all, Jacksonville probably won't involve much construction south of Cocoa, so the room for NIMBY objections is going to get a bit thin) and also performs well, the Tampa EIS process will begin.

So we're probably looking at about a decade, at least, before Tampa gets service. Jacksonville might get it by 2020/21 (again, I think the Jacksonville process will be comparatively smooth...the politicians on the northern end of the line seem to be pretty well-disposed towards AAF, particularly in the hope that they can somehow use it to link up with Central Florida) but Tampa...2026-2030 seems like the timeframe you're looking at.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian,
> 
> Thanks for the info there. I'm trying to sort out the tea leaves on this and what I'm thinking is the following:
> 
> (1) AAF is going to get their Orlando-Miami line running. At the same time they'll probably run a feasibility study (not too expensive and it gets it out of the way) on the Jacksonville line (since that requires almost no new ROW, just re-double-tracking the existing line).
> 
> (2) Once Orlando-Miami is running, and assuming that it ramps up roughly in line with what they're shooting for, they'll focus on making Jacksonville happen (EIS, etc.). This will probably be accompanied by some feasibility work on Tampa.
> 
> (3) Assuming that Jacksonville gets going (I figure that will only take 2-3 years...unlike Orlando, where there's new ROW and all, Jacksonville probably won't involve much construction south of Cocoa, so the room for NIMBY objections is going to get a bit thin) and also performs well, the Tampa EIS process will begin.
> 
> So we're probably looking at about a decade, at least, before Tampa gets service. Jacksonville might get it by 2020/21 (again, I think the Jacksonville process will be comparatively smooth...the politicians on the northern end of the line seem to be pretty well-disposed towards AAF, particularly in the hope that they can somehow use it to link up with Central Florida) but Tampa...2026-2030 seems like the timeframe you're looking at.


My thoughts are these:
1. AAF has previously said that ramp up for ridership is expected to take 2-3 years. So a decision on success of the first route won't be completely known until late 2020 at the earliest.

2. If a ridership/feasibility study shows the Jacksonville route to be good, then any environmental permits/requirements could take as little as a year or as long as 3 years. Remember, AAF only went the EIS route because they thought they needed a RRIF loan. PABs do not require a full EIS. I was told that they could have done just environmental assessments (EA) for the Miami to Cocoa portion of the route with specific Coast Guard and DEP permits where required. Perhaps they will do this for any future expansion to Jacksonville? Maybe they have learned a lesson from the Treasure Coast opposition - An EIS opens your project up to lawsuits and delay. Miami to WPB was just an EA with a finding of no significant impact, I suspect because it is an existing railroad route with no additional land needed. The Jacksonville extension would be very similar to Miami to WPB. Only snag might be the drawbridge over the St Johns River.

3. Jacksonville construction could begin as soon as 2022 and maybe running by 2024 at the earliest.

4. Tampa - the whole route that AAF will most likely use already has had a FEIS and a Record of Decision from the FRA for the never built HSR project. Therefore, only an update to the existing environmental reviews would be needed. That will reduce the time needed for approval since this will be all new railroad ROW. Also, the NIMBY opposition will be a lot less as the route passes through industrial and commercial areas before it meets one of the toll roads in Orlando. The rest of the way is in the middle of I-4 so there shouldn't be any opposition.

5. If ridership/feasibility studies show Tampa to be good, I can actually see AAF starting on Tampa about the same time as Jacksonville. I don't see a real requirement to do Jacksonville or Tampa first before the other. If the first route to Orlando is successful, then that will be proof that rail ridership exists as predicted by their studies. The limitation will be how much money they can raise (PABs for Jacksonville mainly and RRIF/PABs for Tampa?) based on the success of the first route.

6. Tampa could begin construction by 2023 if environmental studies are begun in 2021. Trains running by 2026 at the earliest.

Of course, a big unknown to us on the outside is how much does potential development around station sites impact AAF/FECI's decision on where and when to build. If either extension has more development opportunities than that might swing the decision that way. I personally think AAF is more about development than running trains as that is where the profit is. Therefore if Tampa and Jacksonville can come up with plans to improve local transit and have areas big enough for a major TOD project around the station sites, then AAF will expand.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Meeting in Orlando set for August 5 (one week from this Wednesday) for the FDFC to approve the issuance of PAB's for AAF.

Nothing heard recently about the lawsuit against the FRA giving approval for the PABs. So if AAF can start issuing bonds immediately on August 6 and the court hasn't ruled against the FRA (and AAF) by then on the latest appeal (opponents claiming that AAF needs the PABs to go forward), does that mean the lawsuit is moot? AAF has been soliciting for the bond sale since end of last year. I heard that AAF had investors lined up to sell the full $1.75 billion amount as of several months ago.


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## jis

Brian, wouldn't the northern leg of the wye in Cocoa require some further land acquisition for the connection from the new Orlando - Cocoa line to the FEC main line to go towards JAX at Cocoa? I suspect there may be some land acquisition involved in JAX too possibly.

Also, I understand that EIS's are good for 10 years from ROD to beginning of construction. If construction has not begun within that period then a fresh EIS has to be done. Have you heard any concern along those lines for reusing the FEIS for Orlando - Tampa?


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Brian, wouldn't the northern leg of the wye in Cocoa require some further land acquisition for the connection from the new Orlando - Cocoa line to the FEC main line to go towards JAX at Cocoa? I suspect there may be some land acquisition involved in JAX too possibly.
> 
> Also, I understand that EIS's are good for 10 years from ROD to beginning of construction. If construction has not begun within that period then a fresh EIS has to be done. Have you heard any concern along those lines for reusing the FEIS for Orlando - Tampa?


If they were to build a wye at Cocoa, the question becomes: does that small portion of needed land trigger a project wide EIS? Or could that still be done within the confines of an EA? The land at the wye location appears to be occupied by a rock/gravel material supply operation wth industrial buildings and railroad tracks. I would think that it would require minimal or no mitigation and likely result in a FONSI. in WPB and FTL they purchased additional land for their station buildings without having to go through a full EIS review. I am thinking that the wye and any land needed for the station in Jacksonville could be done with an EA only if no impacts are found.

Regarding the FEIS for the HSR. Thanks for clarifying that as I knew the ROD was good for 10 years but assumed that since the 2010 FEIS relied in part on an earlier EIS that would mean it could be done again. Now that you say that, the earlier EIS was from 2005 or so if I recall. Still, even with a fresh EIS, it should not take long and be much easier than the EIS being performed for the section north of WPB. From my knowledge of the route to Tampa, not much has really changed along the route since the original EIS a decade ago.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brian, wouldn't the northern leg of the wye in Cocoa require some further land acquisition for the connection from the new Orlando - Cocoa line to the FEC main line to go towards JAX at Cocoa? I suspect there may be some land acquisition involved in JAX too possibly.
> 
> Also, I understand that EIS's are good for 10 years from ROD to beginning of construction. If construction has not begun within that period then a fresh EIS has to be done. Have you heard any concern along those lines for reusing the FEIS for Orlando - Tampa?
> 
> 
> 
> If they were to build a wye at Cocoa, the question becomes: does that small portion of needed land trigger a project wide EIS? Or could that still be done within the confines of an EA? The land at the wye location appears to be occupied by a rock/gravel material supply operation wth industrial buildings and railroad tracks. I would think that it would require minimal or no mitigation and likely result in a FONSI. in WPB and FTL they purchased additional land for their station buildings without having to go through a full EIS review. I am thinking that the wye and any land needed for the station in Jacksonville could be done with an EA only if no impacts are found.
> 
> Regarding the FEIS for the HSR. Thanks for clarifying that as I knew the ROD was good for 10 years but assumed that since the 2010 FEIS relied in part on an earlier EIS that would mean it could be done again. Now that you say that, the earlier EIS was from 2005 or so if I recall. Still, even with a fresh EIS, it should not take long and be much easier than the EIS being performed for the section north of WPB. From my knowledge of the route to Tampa, not much has really changed along the route since the original EIS a decade ago.
Click to expand...

If I'm FEC, then in this situation what do I do? I initiate JAX-MIA service and then make the wye a second, detached, small project.


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## chrsjrcj

Grade crossing work has begin in areas outside of the station area. Can't get up close to the first one in Lake Worth, but it looks like a second track is being added on the west side of the main line (where I believe the original second track also was). I'm going out of town tomorrow, so won't have any good pictures until work is done on Wednesday (when another crossing further south shuts down for a few days).


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## Brian_tampa

The FDFC has very nicely made available to the public a document for the bond offering that gives many details about the project all in one place. Starting at pdf page 131 it goes into great detail on the project. Too many to list but here are some particular items of interest:

First 2 Siemens locomotives to be delivered July 2016.

Café cars to come later in 2018.

First 5 trainsets to be delivered May-July 2017. Second 5 trainsets for delivery Feb-June 2018. Ultimate configuration is 5 coach cars and 1 café car on each train.

https://www.enterpriseflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/FDFC-Agenda-Packet-2015-08-05.pdf


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## jis

For some unknown reason I was unable to load the document from that URL. However, if you go to http://www.enterpriseflorida.comand then select Events from the top and select "August FDIC Meeting" you can get hold of a copy of the agenda from there which contains the material referred to above.


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## Brian_tampa

Final EIS documents released today!

https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L16955


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## cirdan

I wonder why the cafe cars are coming later.

I would have thought this is an essential part of thes ervice.


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## Anderson

cirdan said:


> I wonder why the cafe cars are coming later.
> 
> I would have thought this is an essential part of thes ervice.


My best guess is that they don't see on-board food service as necessary between Miami and West Palm Beach (nobody's on the train for more than an hour and change).


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## jis

The private bond issue to finance AAF was approved at the hearing today.


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## Caesar La Rock

Yep.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ap-all-aboard-florida-vote-20150805-story.html


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## Anderson

An *ahem* amusing tidbit from the article:



> Opponents came mostly from the Treasure Coast counties of Martin, Indian River and St. Lucie. They do not have a stop and vowed to continue fighting the train, though it was not clear what they intended to do next.
> 
> Melanie Treewind of the St. Lucie Historical Society suggested people might sue _or even lay down on the tracks to stop All Aboard Florida_.


Good Lord, I thought we left _that_ sort of nonsense in the 60s. Then again, knowing Florida I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who did it in the 60s would be doing it again.


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## jis

At this rate they will either land up in jail or dead. Sigh....


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## chrsjrcj

The Gregory Road railroad crossing in West Palm Beach/Lake Worth has reopened with a second track. Took some pictures yesterday- https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1176011182414062.1073741835.100000155733512&type=1&l=f3fe4ef9d7(the last 15 pictures in the album). Crews are now doing 22nd ave just south of that crossing. Looks like double tracking on the FEC corridor is about to begin.


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## jis

AFAICT there was no one higher than county level folks from the Treasure Coast who spoke against it, while there were quite a few Florida legislature and of course Congresspeople who spoke in favor of it, including a statement submitted in absentia by Rep Mica.

Apparently a lot of speakers were confused about the remit of FDFC which was to determine whether there was enough net positive for the state coming from the project to justify selling the bonds. People spoke about all kinds of other stuff, which while nice to know, has little effect on the question in front of the commissioners.

Anyway, it appears that the bond issue is more than fully subscribed. So as soon as it hits the market in a few days, they will all be sold.

Here is an article from a newspaper from the center of the opposition which is Indian River, Martin and St. Lucie Counties. In general everyone else except one Commissioner of Brevard seemed to be for it. A mayor of a city in the area of the said Brevard Commissioner, however, spoke in favor of it.

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/08/05/all-aboard-florida-bonds-get-vote-today/


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> An *ahem* amusing tidbit from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opponents came mostly from the Treasure Coast counties of Martin, Indian River and St. Lucie. They do not have a stop and vowed to continue fighting the train, though it was not clear what they intended to do next.
> 
> Melanie Treewind of the St. Lucie Historical Society suggested people might sue _or even lay down on the tracks to stop All Aboard Florida_.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Lord, I thought we left _that_ sort of nonsense in the 60s. Then again, knowing Florida I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who did it in the 60s would be doing it again.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we abandoned _that _sort of nonsense and replaced it with _new_ nonsense based on impotent rage and cynical indifference. Although these folks appear to be highly confused and easily manipulated at least they're taking part in the process. It's hard for me to hold that specific aspect against them. Sometimes even ignorant controversy can serve as a catalyst for improved outcomes.

For instance, when the largely discredited anti-vaccine movement successfully removed unnecessary mercury from vaccine solutions I still considered it a positive development. It's entirely possible that trace levels of mercury are not especially harmful, but since you cannot legally (or morally) test the effects of mercury poisoning on an infant I would prefer to play it safe rather than sloppy.


----------



## Anderson

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> An *ahem* amusing tidbit from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opponents came mostly from the Treasure Coast counties of Martin, Indian River and St. Lucie. They do not have a stop and vowed to continue fighting the train, though it was not clear what they intended to do next.
> 
> Melanie Treewind of the St. Lucie Historical Society suggested people might sue _or even lay down on the tracks to stop All Aboard Florida_.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Lord, I thought we left _that_ sort of nonsense in the 60s. Then again, knowing Florida I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who did it in the 60s would be doing it again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, we abandoned _that _sort of nonsense and replaced it with _new_ nonsense based on impotent rage and cynical indifference. Although these folks appear to be highly confused and easily manipulated at least they're taking part in the process. It's hard for me to hold that specific aspect against them. Sometimes even ignorant controversy can serve as a catalyst for improved outcomes.
> 
> For instance, when the largely discredited anti-vaccine movement successfully removed unnecessary mercury from vaccine solutions I still considered it a positive development. It's entirely possible that trace levels of mercury are not especially harmful, but since you cannot legally (or morally) test the effects of mercury poisoning on an infant I would prefer to play it safe rather than sloppy.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between engaging in the process legitimately (e.g. attending meetings, voting, and various forms of non-intrusive protest) and doing so in a manner intended to inconvenience as many people as possible with an aim of forcing folks to concede to your demands (e.g. laying down on the railroad tracks, shutting down a city with protests for days on end, rioting). I'll grant that you can make a case in some narrow circumstances about dysfunctional systems...but those are necessarily few and far between and in most cases there's an underlying unwillingness to engage.

In a case like this the problem is, to my mind, an unwillingness to accept that a fight was lost and move on (Honolulu comes to mind as another example of this issue). Of course, I think we've also seen plenty of immediate post-defeat bluster followed by acceptance of the defeat over the ensuing weeks and months...witness the lawsuit in this case getting dropped quietly.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> An *ahem* amusing tidbit from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opponents came mostly from the Treasure Coast counties of Martin, Indian River and St. Lucie. They do not have a stop and vowed to continue fighting the train, though it was not clear what they intended to do next.
> 
> Melanie Treewind of the St. Lucie Historical Society suggested people might sue _or even lay down on the tracks to stop All Aboard Florida_.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Lord, I thought we left _that_ sort of nonsense in the 60s. Then again, knowing Florida I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who did it in the 60s would be doing it again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, we abandoned _that _sort of nonsense and replaced it with _new_ nonsense based on impotent rage and cynical indifference. Although these folks appear to be highly confused and easily manipulated at least they're taking part in the process. It's hard for me to hold that specific aspect against them. Sometimes even ignorant controversy can serve as a catalyst for improved outcomes.
> 
> For instance, when the largely discredited anti-vaccine movement successfully removed unnecessary mercury from vaccine solutions I still considered it a positive development. It's entirely possible that trace levels of mercury are not especially harmful, but since you cannot legally (or morally) test the effects of mercury poisoning on an infant I would prefer to play it safe rather than sloppy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's a difference between engaging in the process legitimately (e.g. attending meetings, voting, and various forms of non-intrusive protest) and doing so in a manner intended to inconvenience as many people as possible with an aim of forcing folks to concede to your demands (e.g. laying down on the railroad tracks, shutting down a city with protests for days on end, rioting). I'll grant that you can make a case in some narrow circumstances about dysfunctional systems...but those are necessarily few and far between and in most cases there's an underlying unwillingness to engage. In a case like this the problem is, to my mind, an unwillingness to accept that a fight was lost and move on (Honolulu comes to mind as another example of this issue). Of course, I think we've also seen plenty of immediate post-defeat bluster followed by acceptance of the defeat over the ensuing weeks and months...witness the lawsuit in this case getting dropped quietly.
Click to expand...

Something else to keep in mind is that the folks who _actually_ laid down on tracks were fighting battles over potentially life altering or life ending events such as nuclear contamination and proliferation. They were _not_ fighting over theoretical property values and potential impact to real estate investments. I seriously doubt that any of these people will be lying down on any tracks over something like this.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I agree with Chris that the 60s and 70s protestors were doing important business in trying to stop the craziness that was going on in the world and STILL IS!!

Wealthy Nimbys and Anti- Government Zealots, egged on by Real Estate Developers, are not the same thing, but they do have rights, as long as they exercise them peacefully we should be happy that they still can!!


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## neroden

Anderson said:


> There's a difference between engaging in the process legitimately (e.g. attending meetings, voting, and various forms of non-intrusive protest) and doing so in a manner intended to inconvenience as many people as possible with an aim of forcing folks to concede to your demands (e.g. laying down on the railroad tracks, shutting down a city with protests for days on end, rioting). I'll grant that you can make a case in some narrow circumstances about dysfunctional systems...but those are necessarily few and far between and in most cases there's an underlying unwillingness to engage.


Yeah... direct action may be appropriate if you're facing a wholly corrupt system. When the Native Americans in the Toronto area block the roads and tracks which go through the land which was *stolen from them*, exercising their legal rights to the land despite the refusal of "white man's" governments to honor those rights... I can't really argue with that. Everyone who's looked into it honestly, including the Supreme Court of Canada, knows about the land theft, and they've been demanding compensation continuously for over 200 years, but the land still hasn't been paid for. Similarly, I understand when the Senecas shut down I-81 through the reservation, because they never approved its construction, it was subsequently built illegally, and they're *still* fighting for compensation. You can't tell them to go to the courts, because the US courts have been infamously and blatantly corrupt when it comes to them, actually preventing them from appearing in court for roughly 150 years, and then saying 'well, it's been too long to complain' (despite the fact that the delay was *entirely the courts' fault*).

And I understand when people blockade a project which has imminent risk of poisoning the water supply, like fracking, or causing an irreversible sinkhole, or... you know, things which you can't be compensated for at *all*.

This? It's freaking passenger trains on *existing tracks*. It's not going to cause irreversible environmental damage. It isn't an case of fighting for self-evident rights to land which was stolen from them. It's just not the sort of thing which anyone would consider worth fighting the entire system for.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Something else to keep in mind is that the folks who _actually_ laid down on tracks were fighting battles over potentially life altering or life ending events such as nuclear contamination and proliferation. They were _not_ fighting over theoretical property values and potential impact to real estate investments. I seriously doubt that any of these people will be lying down on any tracks over something like this.


Exactly.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, as the old Folk Song from Woddie Guthrie goes: "..some people Rob you with a fountain pen.."


----------



## me_little_me

Devil's Advocate said:


> Something else to keep in mind is that the folks who _actually_ laid down on tracks were fighting battles over potentially life altering or life ending events such as nuclear contamination and proliferation. They were _not_ fighting over theoretical property values and potential impact to real estate investments. I seriously doubt that any of these people will be lying down on any tracks over something like this.


Actually, they'd be more likely to hire some poor people to do that for them. Wouldn't want to get germs from those dirty tracks. :giggle: :giggle:


----------



## Paulus

The number of seats that AAF is planning for their trains is just absurdly low. I don't know how they plan on hitting their ridership goals with them.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

How many seats in each coach? I poked around but couldn't find the answer--thanks.


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## jis

The current train lengths being talked about are initial deployment lengths. There are options in place to add at least two more cars per consist, in addition to the food service car as far as I understand it. You have to be careful about the ridership projections. i have been trying to get info on specific ridership projections on specific deployment cycles, and have not been able to. It is one thing to say that the potential ridership is so much, and another thing to say that with this set of deployed equipment we expect to carry this much ridership. Maybe I am missing something, and need to take a closer look at the piles of documentation.


----------



## Anderson

Well, a couple of things jump to mind here:
-3.5m riders is NOT the Miami-Orlando ridership. It is the total of the six city pairs.
-Load factors are expected to peak between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.
-Ridership splits roughly half-and-half between the "local" traffic on the southern end and traffic to/from Orlando.

With this in mind...the equipment allocations seem plausible to start with, but it seems like they're going to end up extending the sets (or at least some of the sets) sooner rather than later. The cafe situation is going to be interesting, seeing as they're apparently going with a part-cafe part-coach car AND apparently aiming to serve all BC pax a full meal; my best guess is that the BC cars will be not unlike the Acela FC cars.

FWIW, I ran load factor calculations...and on the higher cases, AAF simply isn't going to be able to make things work as-is. Either they'll be adding frequencies or they'll be lengthening trains...or both. Worth asking: If AAF wants to add another batch of frequencies, how much of this dog-and-pony show will they have to do all over again?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Well, a couple of things jump to mind here:
> 
> -3.5m riders is NOT the Miami-Orlando ridership. It is the total of the six city pairs.
> 
> -Load factors are expected to peak between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.
> 
> -Ridership splits roughly half-and-half between the "local" traffic on the southern end and traffic to/from Orlando.
> 
> With this in mind...the equipment allocations seem plausible to start with, but it seems like they're going to end up extending the sets (or at least some of the sets) sooner rather than later. The cafe situation is going to be interesting, seeing as they're apparently going with a part-cafe part-coach car AND apparently aiming to serve all BC pax a full meal; my best guess is that the BC cars will be not unlike the Acela FC cars.
> 
> FWIW, I ran load factor calculations...and on the higher cases, AAF simply isn't going to be able to make things work as-is. Either they'll be adding frequencies or they'll be lengthening trains...or both. Worth asking: If AAF wants to add another batch of frequencies, how much of this dog-and-pony show will they have to do all over again?


From what I recall, AAF has stated that they can increase train lengths to 9 passenger cars. Initial full build out will start off with 7 passenger cars. These train car counts include the cafe care.

Also, in the bond offering document that is available on the FDFC website, AAF states that they have the ability to order more locomotives and passenger cars if needed.

IMO, AAF will increase train length before adding trains. Their biggest issue has always been the draw bridges since the very beginning. They need USCG permits/approval for operation/changes of the bridges over navigable waterways. Everything else is inconsequential as far as delaying or stopping the project. Expect to see the NIMBYS on the Treasure Coast file lawsuits against the USCG and USACE in the near future. It is going to get ugly. But AAF should prevail as they can show their service provides a public benefit and need. And AAF has political backing as well.


----------



## Anderson

While I don't have the technical information for as-yet unbuilt stations, I have to wonder if it would be easier to extend platforms than fight with the USCG (since the Coast Guard fights will give the NIMBYs yet another place to fight if they're adding more than just one or two rush hour trains).


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The current train lengths being talked about are initial deployment lengths. There are options in place to add at least two more cars per consist, in addition to the food service car as far as I understand it. You have to be careful about the ridership projections. i have been trying to get info on specific ridership projections on specific deployment cycles, and have not been able to. It is one thing to say that the potential ridership is so much, and another thing to say that with this set of deployed equipment we expect to carry this much ridership. Maybe I am missing something, and need to take a closer look at the piles of documentation.


I guess that AAF will not be releasing all details. They are after all a private company and this sort of data is of strategic value. You don't get bus companies or airlines realeasing detailed break downs of their projected ridership and revenue for coming years either. At best you get an aggregate projection and you can speculate from there.


----------



## jis

Yeah, I don't expect them to provide any further details. Which of course leaves open the opportunity to speculate away here. I was just pointing out that the EIS and similar documents do not necessarily give the details of projected traffic based on specific consist compositions. They are really sort of like an median upper bound kinda thing. Adequate equipment may be able to carry that many. How the growth of provisioning of said equipment will take place on what timeline is usually not covered, or even if covered is not very reliable They are however very important for armchair make believe rail executives


----------



## chrsjrcj

Freight bypass in Fort Lauderdale was supposed to go live on Monday, but delayed because of Erika. With the storm looking like less of a threat to SE Florida, hopefully there isn't much of a delay.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/fl-all-aboard-florida-construction-update-20150828-story.html


----------



## jis

Thought I'd share this very nice Powerpoint slide set that I chanced upon. It clearly shows the location of the Intermodal Station relative to the current location of the North Terminal Future plans puts a 6 satellite South Terminals C and D with the Intermodal Station as its central anchor. Of course the North and the South terminals will be connected by a people mover system. IOW the Intermodal Station is not a random bulding in the middle of a field as it appears presently, but it is a central anchor for a huge air terminal which will possibly be larger than the current North Terminal when fully built out.

Incidentally what is shown in Slide 5 as the light blue "Future SunRail" is what I explained to folks a little while back in this thread. In some other planning diagrams that same alignment is also shown as the ROW for use as a connection to a future HSR to Tampa. It is not clear which way the proposed Monorail/Maglev will approach OIA from these diagrams, in a separate document on the OIA - I-Drive Transit Corridor, the routing is shown to be along the same ROW as the AAF from the Intermodal Terminal to 528, and then running along 528 and Sandlake Road to I-Drive.


----------



## Anderson

Thinking back to that, I think I mangled the approaches for Sunrail versus the I-Drive project. Then again, Orlando has had a rather stunning ability to make me dizzy with these projects (I seem to recall an abandoned "North-South Light Rail" project of some kind that was thrown in and then thrown out).

Back to the airport and AAF...I've seen the sprawling construction on the south side of the terminal/hotel (I've been in that hotel more than I care to remember...it's convenient and, at least for the moment, it's reasonably cost-effective for me to stay down in FL for a day, visit friends and one of the parks, and then do the F-word to LAX on VX versus going out of Washington). I don't recall, though...is that a fifth terminal (and AAF will be a sixth line in/out of the terminal complex) or is it the station that I'm seeing under construction? Also, it looks like the AAF line will run by the hotel...which means that (if it's on the side of the hotel I think it will be) I'll be begging a window seat at McCoy's in the future.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Thought I'd share this very nice Powerpoint slide set that I chanced upon. It clearly shows the location of the Intermodal Station relative to the current location of the North Terminal Future plans puts a 6 satellite South Terminals C and D with the Intermodal Station as its central anchor. Of course the North and the South terminals will be connected by a people mover system. IOW the Intermodal Station is not a random bulding in the middle of a field as it appears presently, but it is a central anchor for a huge air terminal which will possibly be larger than the current North Terminal when fully built out.
> 
> Incidentally what shown in Slide 5 as the light blue "Future SunRail" is what I explained to folks a little while back in this thread. In some other planning diagrams that same alignment is also shown as the ROW for use as a connection to a future HSR to Tampa. It is not clear which way the proposed Monorail/Maglev will approach OIA from these diagrams, in a separate document on the OIA - I-Drive Transit Corridor, the routing is shown to be along the same ROW as the AAF from the Intermodal Terminal to 528, and then running along 528 and Sandlake Road to I-Drive.


Thanks for that phenomenal find.

This is the first time I see a map of the proposed new terninal at Orlando and the various rail alignments around it.

the FEC approach from the north seems rather torurous to me, especially that very tight curveas it goes from heading north to heading east.

It's also interesting to see the line cut through the middle of the existing north terminal. I bet that must imply quite a bit of disruption during the construction phase. I wonder whether they considered building the FEC terminal here instead?

Also, returning to our earlier discussion about whether there would be a rail connection between the FEC side and the Sunrail side, this map does make that look extremely likely. I wonder if it would make sense to share Sunrail's tracks to the maintennace facility or build a completely separtate spur alongside?


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## Chucktin

You believe that that Maglev thing will actually happen?


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Thinking back to that, I think I mangled the approaches for Sunrail versus the I-Drive project. Then again, Orlando has had a rather stunning ability to make me dizzy with these projects (I seem to recall an abandoned "North-South Light Rail" project of some kind that was thrown in and then thrown out).


The original plan circa 2012 showed the ROW currently proposed to be used for AAF and the Monorail Maglev to be a Light Rail ROW

It also showed the ROW proposed to be used for SunRail as the ROW for the Orlando - Tampa HSR.



> Back to the airport and AAF...I've seen the sprawling construction on the south side of the terminal/hotel (I've been in that hotel more than I care to remember...it's convenient and, at least for the moment, it's reasonably cost-effective for me to stay down in FL for a day, visit friends and one of the parks, and then do the F-word to LAX on VX versus going out of Washington). I don't recall, though...is that a fifth terminal (and AAF will be a sixth line in/out of the terminal complex) or is it the station that I'm seeing under construction? Also, it looks like the AAF line will run by the hotel...which means that (if it's on the side of the hotel I think it will be) I'll be begging a window seat at McCoy's in the future.


It is the initial part of the South Terminal with 16 gates, many A380 capable. It will become the International Terminal, with Terminals A and B becoming purely domestic.



cirdan said:


> Thanks for that phenomenal find.
> 
> This is the first time I see a map of the proposed new terminal at Orlando and the various rail alignments around it.
> 
> the FEC approach from the north seems rather torturous to me, especially that very tight curves it goes from heading north to heading east.
> 
> It's also interesting to see the line cut through the middle of the existing north terminal. I bet that must imply quite a bit of disruption during the construction phase. I wonder whether they considered building the FEC terminal here instead?


It is not really through the middle of the terminal. It is to the east of the terminal main building, on the east side of the eastern approach road on what is now pretty unoccupied ground between the terminal building and the airside modules 2 and 4, basically passing under the people mover tracks, where allowance was made for the ROW when they were constructed. The expected disruption is something between none to minimal.

There isn't enough space available in that area to build a terminal. The ramp for the people mover from the North to the South Terminal was built in as a part of the North Terminal construction. You can see the unused ramp from the Hyatt Hotel, if you know where to look.

The portion of AAF within OIA property is something like 4 miles as far as I can tell. BTW, the original plan showed the light rail ROW mentioned by Anderson cutting through the parking lot that sits in the southeast quadrant of the Rt 528 - Semoran Blvd intersection. But the current plans leaves the parking lot as is and the ROW closely follows the ramp from Semoran Blvd North to Rt 528 East. That is where you see the sharp curve. Clearly a cost optimized solution which has minimal impact on total running time.



> Also, returning to our earlier discussion about whether there would be a rail connection between the FEC side and the Sunrail side, this map does make that look extremely likely. I wonder if it would make sense to share Sunrail's tracks to the maintennace facility or build a completely separtate spur alongside?


AAF will be fully built and in service before SunRail starts construction to the airport according to current timelines.



Chucktin said:


> You believe that that Maglev thing will actually happen?


Something will be built. The Maglev people claim that they will start Maglev service in late 2016 in the circulator part of it in the I-Drive/Sand Lake Road area and then extend it to the airport in the 2018 timeframe provided the Intermodal Terminal is ready by then. The type of Maglev they are proposing is not rocket science, so technically there is nothing that makes it unfeasible. They are in the process of getting permits and acquiring necessary real estate, so they do intend to build something, that is clear.

BTW, I am sorry that this has gone a bit beyond just FEC discussion, but it occurred to me that there was a lot of misunderstanding of the broader context within which AAF enters into the picture at OIA/MCO, which needed the introduction of some clarity. Hopefully the Mods will indulge us, and I thank them for such indulgence.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, jis. That is the first PowerPoint presentation I have ever enjoyed looking at!


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## Caesar La Rock

It hasn't opened yet, but the All Aboard Florida project just won an award.

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/09/14/all-aboard-florida-wins-international-design-award/


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## chrsjrcj

Looks like crews were finally laying down ties and tracks for the freight bypass in WPB today. Probably be done by the end of next week? Then the heavy station work begins.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

A Facebook post from All Aboard Florida states the passenger cars are being built.


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## chrsjrcj

Freight bypass done in WPB. Will be interesting to see the original main line get ripped up so the station can be built.


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## Caesar La Rock

Here is a video showing the progress.


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## jis

Here is an article about the progress in the construction of the South Terminal, including the AAF and future SunRail station at Orlando International Airport:

Work Under Way for New Orlando Airport Terminal Complex

See the slide set in http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/48373-fec-update/page-55&do=findComment&comment=621851for broader context.


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## Fan Railer

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/news/local/all-aboard-florida-to-release-first-images-of-its-/npJKm/



> All Aboard Florida will release the first images of its trains on Monday, as part of a marketing event the company said it will hold to “unveil” its passenger service between Miami and Orlando... All Aboard Florida plans to run 32 trains a day along the FEC tracks with stops in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando. It plans to launch service between Miami and West Palm Beach in 2017. The West Palm Beach-to-Orlando span is expected to begin by the end of 2017... Work has begun at all four station sites, and construction crews are working throughout Palm Beach County to clear land along the Florida East Coast Railway corridor to make way for a second track. The new track will run parallel to the FEC line, allowing two trains to pass each other.


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## jis

The AAF Service will be named _Brightline_.

http://ccrail.com/usa-today-all-aboard-florida-now-will-be-known-as-the-brightline/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2015/11/09/florida-express-train-travel-miami-orlando/75179722/


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## Mystic River Dragon

I love both the name and the colors!  I think an Orlando to West Palm Beach trip is in my future in a couple of years.


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## Eric S

The USA Today article that can be reached via the link Jis included has a number of photos and renderings of both the locomotives and cars that Siemens is building as well as the stations in Fort Lauderdale, Miami, Orlando, and West Palm Beach.


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## jphjaxfl

This is very exciting for Florida! I am looking forward to driving to OIA to catch the train to South Florida and maybe someday Brightline will come to Jacksonville.


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## cirdan

I like the design and branding. I hope it turns into a success.


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## Anderson

The bright yellow makes me wince a little bit and some of the styling is a bit more "futuristic" or "post-modern" than I might prefer...but it's all quite well done and even in the aspects I like least, I'll readily concede that they seem to have avoided the worst excesses of that sort of design.

(I'll concede that I am not a fan of the lots-of-glass school of design...but that's also just me)


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> (I'll concede that I am not a fan of the lots-of-glass school of design...but that's also just me)


Neither am I, but they don't do Beaux Arts skyscrapers any more these days, and when they do try the result usually looks tacky.

And I've definitely seen far uglier stuff than what AAF is proposing. So I'll be happy to go with it.


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## jis

jphjaxfl said:


> This is very exciting for Florida! I am looking forward to driving to OIA to catch the train to South Florida and maybe someday Brightline will come to Jacksonville.


I am looking forward to the addition of a stop in Brevard County. As soon as that happens I will become a regular user of it to get to both Miami and Orlando. No more drives to Orlando Airport to catch flights! Though it is possible that the lack of train schedules later in the evening might force me to drive anyway. 



Mystic River Dragon said:


> I love both the name and the colors!  I think an Orlando to West Palm Beach trip is in my future in a couple of years.


I do like the livery and the copious use of colors other than dull blue and dull red as in the Phase IV of Amtrak.

It looks like the FEC Chargers will look somewhat different from the run of the mill Chargers that the midwest and western states will get. looks like Siemens is working hard to make the AAF trains look like genuine integrated consists rather than just a rag tag circus of cars and locomotives slapped together.


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## jis

For this of you that have a Facebook account, you may find this page interesting as they post more info there:

https://www.facebook.com/GoBrightline/

And here is a little video ad:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/oDo0IBZY2ME


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## jphjaxfl

If the first Brightline route from OIA to Miami is successful and I believe it will be, I have no doubt that other routes and additional stops will be forthcoming. I think that eventually even the NIMBYs from Cocoa to West Palm will change their opinion.


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## Caesar La Rock

Can't wait to see what the passenger cars will look like. Can't wait for this to operate.


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## jis

jphjaxfl said:


> If the first Brightline route from OIA to Miami is successful and I believe it will be, I have no doubt that other routes and additional stops will be forthcoming. I think that eventually even the NIMBYs from Cocoa to West Palm will change their opinion.


What NIMBYs from Cocoa? I think Cocoa and Melbourne were the two major supporting communities in Brevard County Commissioners meeting, even though they are not immediately getting a station. Some of that support does involve a quid pro quo of being given the first new station beyond the original project it would seem. Indeed Brevard County is already working with AAF to agree upon the location of a stop in North Brevard County. Most likely it will be somewhere between Cocoa and Melbourne, perhaps in Rockledge or some such.

So yeah, the NIMBY is mostly in Indian River, St. Lucie and Martin Counties where they are actually using Taxpayer money to legally try to oppose, and so far failing miserably, pissing away millions of dollars that could have been gainfully used elsewhere. There are some elements in South Brevard. For example the South Brevard County Commissioner is against it but the Mayor of Palm Bay, the largest incorporated community in South Brevard is for it. North Brevard has been for it for at least 18 months now. They have done some hard nosed negotiation with AAF to get grade crossing improvements funded etc., but that IMHO is a reasonable discussion to be had.

Frankly, Cocoa and Cape Canaveral want a spur built to Port Canaveral some day to capture the Orlando to Port Canaveral traffic and such.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I really like the name and color scheme(s) that they have chosen. I think the Brightline name was known for awhile (at least in online forums and at the TC Palm) ever since one of the opponents to AAF discovered it last year not long after AAF applied for a trademark.

I agree with jis above that the NIMBYS are a problem mostly in Indian River, St Lucie and Martin Counties. Brevard wants a station and is willing to work with AAF to get one, unlike the 3 counties just to their south.

As far as future expansion, AAF has hinted recently that it would be considered as soon as the original route is operating. I know that AAF/FECI have been watching developments in Tampa (transit plans and a lot of downtown real estate development projects in the next 5-10yrs) as well as along the I-4 corridor (in regards to FDOT future plans) for some time now. Jacksonville is also on their radar. So it would not surprise me to see either route chosen for their next expansion leg.

It was interesting that AAF and the boaters in Ft Lauderdale have come to an agreement just recently over the New River drawbridge. Also, the sale of bonds has been reported to taking place this week sometime. Reuters had an online article about the bonds last Friday. So a lot seems to be coming into place quickly now. I do need to get to the Orlando airport soon to check out construction. I was last there in July and they were moving a lot of earth and starting some foundation work on roads and canals/ponds.


----------



## jis

You may or may not agree with all of it but I found this documentary to be quite uplifting. It was released today by its creator Dimitrius Villa in conjunction with the AAF/Brightline announcements. It is about the All Aboard Florida with a historical perspective and a broader modern context. Among others Gene Skorpowski participates in it. Give it a shot. you might enjoy it. It is about 28 minutes long.


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## Palmetto

Good show. Thanks for linking it!


----------



## jphjaxfl

Excellent video! Thanks for the link.


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## Steve4031

Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.


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## chrsjrcj

Was on LinkedIn and saw that this job opening popped up 12 days ago: https://jobs.usa.siemens-info.com/jobs/144810?sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE&source=LinkedIn(Wrap)



> Job Description
> Rolling Stock Maintenance Superintendent
> 
> The Rolling Stock Maintenance Superintendent has primary responsibility for the safe and profitable execution of the long term maintenance contract for a brand new fleet of high-tech rolling stock. This rolling stock consists of Tier 4 compliant high-horsepower locomotives in a push-pull configuration with elegant coaches intended to deliver a high-end customer experience. These trains will operate up to 125 mph from Orlando to Miami 7 days a week.


----------



## Anderson

Steve4031 said:


> Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.


In Miami? Plausible; I could see AAF runnig something like a DMU shuttle (or a back-and-forth run with one or two sets) between MiamiCentral and the port.

In Canaveral? Not a bloody chance. You'd have to put in a very high bridge over the Indian River and another one over the Banana River. However, I _think_ the old Cocoa FEC station is roughly at US1 and SR528...which would be a pretty good place to stage shuttle buses. I believe FEC has hinted that they're pursuing this option, especially since if their system is fully fleshed-out you'd have four destinations to take cruise pax (Jacksonville, South Florida, Orlando, and Tampa) for flights and/or other parts of a package.


----------



## jis

Or two drawbridges. But that won't happen either. Suffice it to say though, two 50' high fixed span bridges on a passenger railroad is quite feasible and probably way cheaper in this day and age. After all significant parts of the Delhi Metro is built 50' or 60' high elevated structures and they are visually not that horrible either.

And BTW anything to do with passenger service is FECI via AAF and not FECR the railroad. They are both separate subsidiaries of the Fortress Group. Oddly AAF has no direct corporate relationship with FECR other than through specific arms length contracts.


----------



## A Voice

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-12/junk-deals-derailed-as-high-yield-muni-funds-pull-in-less-cash

From the linked article:

_The Florida Development Finance Corp. this week postponed a $1.75 billion unrated bond sale for All Aboard Florida, a passenger railroad backed by Fortress Investment Group LLC, that underwriters have been marketing since August._


----------



## Alex M.

Maybe they should call the Chinese or the Japanese since they are sinking big money in US high speed rail. Since Siemens is a German company, perhaps Germany could be enticed to invest.


----------



## jis

FECI has basically said they will fund it themselves if none of the plans for getting additional debt funding pan out. There is of course the RRIF loan yet to fall back on, leading to another set of political firestorm first.


----------



## neroden

Hmmm. Miami to the cruise ship terminal? this might be a case where extending the silly Metromover would make sense, given how short the trip is.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Hmmm. Miami to the cruise ship terminal? this might be a case where extending the silly Metromover would make sense, given how short the trip is.


There is an LRT proposal moving along for exactly that sort of thing, to the cruise terminal and also to South Beach.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Just got back from a drive from North Florida back home to West Palm Beach. Full service for this thing cannot come soon enough! Over $10 in tolls on the Turnpike (with SunPass) plus $30 for a tank of a gas...oh and $200 for a new windshield because debris from a truck cracked it. :angry:

Anyway, I took a quick trip to downtown to see the latest happenings since I've been gone and saw that a third track is being added. It's really part of the double track for the passenger trains into the station, but I was surprised to see double tracking at the station happening already, especially considering that freights won't ever be able to use it and passenger service is still more than a year off.


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> Just got back from a drive from North Florida back home to West Palm Beach. Full service for this thing cannot come soon enough! Over $10 in tolls on the Turnpike (with SunPass) plus $30 for a tank of a gas...oh and $200 for a new windshield because debris from a truck cracked it. :angry:
> 
> Anyway, I took a quick trip to downtown to see the latest happenings since I've been gone and saw that a third track is being added. It's really part of the double track for the passenger trains into the station, but I was surprised to see double tracking at the station happening already, especially considering that freights won't ever be able to use it and passenger service is still more than a year off.


Well, do bear in mind that:

(1) Building the track is (relatively) easy;

(2) Most of that year is going to involve building stations, permits, etc.; and

(3) It may well be easier to build the station(s) with the new track in place first, lest something get messed up by a few inches and a lot of money (Hope, AR comes to mind).


----------



## jis

It is supposed to be early 2017 for West Palm Beach service anyway is what I am hearing.

The third track at the stations is to bypass the freights around the station while the station is built. Or so I hear from the AAF folks. We will get a first hand report from AAF on the 19th and then we'll know a bit more.


----------



## jis

Brightline Project moves ahead; Brevard seeks stops



> Four Brevard County communities — Cocoa, Melbourne, Palm Bay and Rockledge — have submitted proposals to the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization, detailing where they believe the ideal site for a passenger train station in their communities would be. Cocoa submitted four sites, and the others one apiece.
> 
> The Transportation Planning Organization and its consultant plan to meet with representatives of the four cities, then present their findings to the TPO's 19-member governing board in February. That board then will be asked to recommend a single site to All Aboard Florida for consideration.


Now if only the three counties to our south will stop being gratuitously obstructive and start asking for station(s) instead of sitting grumpily on the sideline complaining about random things.


----------



## Anderson

I suspect they'll come around...about the time the first trains start blowing through without stopping.

Also...if I had to guess, AAF will be adding more stops in the long run than initial plans indicate...though they'll probably be keeping an hourly "express" service intact and other stops won't be getting "full service".


----------



## jis

Mind you there is no CSX involved at all south of WPB. It is all either Tri-Rail or FEC.

Meanwhile things are moving along in AAF-land:

http://www.growthspotter.com/projects/brightline/gs-all-aboard-florida-gains-easement-talks-jacksonville-20151203-story.html

BTW, Miami Central Station will have three platform tracks for AAF and two for Tri-Rail.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Here's a link to an article about the testing of the upcoming station lights. The article stew that some of the employees formerly worked for Disney, so this could result with very good station facilities.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-tests-lighting-for-its-stations/npmDX


----------



## me_little_me

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here's a link to an article about the testing of the upcoming station lights. The article stew that some of the employees formerly worked for Disney, so this could result with very good station facilities.
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-tests-lighting-for-its-stations/npmDX


Oh great!

It will be a Mickey Mouse operation.

Goofy will be the station agent.

Food prices will be sky high.

Ticket prices will be even worse. You'll be encouraged to buy a ten ride ticket to save money.

You'll have to show up hours ahead of time because the parking will be so far away, you'll have to take the shuttle.

Wait until the nightly electric light parade through the station occurs! No seating will be provided.

Every tree, flower and blade of grass will be perfect.

Animatronic guides will show you to your train.

Your train will not stop at the station but will keep rolling, You will be on a moving walkway to get on.

Dumbo will take up half the space in your rail car.

You'll never believe what the electric cart that helps handicapped passengers is going to look like.

No train songs in the station - just "It's A Small World" played over and over.

The station will look like a castle or a Death Star.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.
> 
> 
> 
> In Miami? Plausible; I could see AAF runnig something like a DMU shuttle (or a back-and-forth run with one or two sets) between MiamiCentral and the port.
> 
> In Canaveral? Not a bloody chance. You'd have to put in a very high bridge over the Indian River and another one over the Banana River. However, I _think_ the old Cocoa FEC station is roughly at US1 and SR528...which would be a pretty good place to stage shuttle buses. I believe FEC has hinted that they're pursuing this option, especially since if their system is fully fleshed-out you'd have four destinations to take cruise pax (Jacksonville, South Florida, Orlando, and Tampa) for flights and/or other parts of a package.
Click to expand...

Anderson, think again.  For you pleasure I present to you:

http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/9/3/brevard_county_railr.html

Yeah, there is a some jousting that will take place. But I think there i a very good chance that a spur at least for freight to Port Canaveral will be built and possibly along SR 528. A 50' above MSL railway bridge is not an unheard of thing in this day and age, and over the long run might be cheaper to operate than a lower alignment with two drawbridges.

BTW, the Cocoa AAF station if there is one (it is not a given, there are four plausible locations in Brevard County being explored and many believe Rockledge is a better location in North Brevard), it will be considerably south of SR 528, since the station has to be in a location after AAF comes off the ramp connecting to the Orlando ROW, They also have to design the whole thing keeping open the possibility of a junction with the future Cocoa to Port Canaveral link along SR 528, so very unlikely that there will be a station at or near SR 528 - US 1 intersection.

At the FRPC meeting yesterday three people from AAF came to give us an update about AAF. We asked many questions privately after the presentation. Some interesting tidbits that I gathered:

i. At present they are focused on getting the MIC - OIA service up and running. Even when they extend service from WPB to OIA they will not immediately do a local WPB tunr between MIC and WPB, or FLL or any such. Such might happen in the future depending on how things go.

ii. The next thing to do after service to OIA is station in Brevard County where negotiations on station location are in advanced stages.

iii. They are definitely protecting all rights to extend service to JAX, but currently no firm plans.

iv. They may consider Tampa at some point but it is too far away to talk any semblance of route details and such. They declined to answer a specific question about whether they would use the I-4 ROW.

v. They are currently on track to start MIC to WPB service mid 2017.

vi. They just got full access to the Cocoa - OIA ROW last week with the lease transfer of the last bit between SR 417 and OIA, and are now ready to start work on construction of the new track on the new ROW.

All this did not stop some in the audience from waxing poetic about "when AAF begins service to Ocala" and what not.  Jokingly the guy said something like 2075 for that. 

Abbreviations used:

BTW: By The Way

AAF: All Aboard Florida

FEC: Florida East Coast - used as a short form to refer to Florida East Coast Railway (FECR).

FRPC: Florida Rail Passenger Coalition

ROW: Right Of Way

MIC: Miami Central

OIA: Orlando International Airport

WPB: West Palm Beach

FLL: Fort Lauderdale

JAX: Jacksonville

SR: State Route

US: US Highway

I: Interstate Highway


----------



## jis

The Wave Streetcar system will connect to Bridghtline Service in Fort Lauderdale

http://www.wavestreetcar.com/


----------



## jis

More news from AAF:

All Aboard Florida testing lighting for its stations.



> ......
> On Wednesday night, the company completed testing light colors, tones and brightness in the lighting that will ultimately shine at its stations from Orlando to Miami, including West Palm Beach. Brightline even hired a lighting firm out of New York, Domingo Gonzalez Associates, to help make decisions.
> 
> "We all worked for Disney so there is a particular passion for attention to detail," said Scott Sanders, Brightline executive vice president for development and construction.
> 
> Sanders said lighting was no small detail in Brightline's massive construction program. Not only does the company expect colorful and aesthetically pleasing lighting will make the stations signature buildings in each city's skyline, but appealing lighting also helps branding and even create awareness among passengers as they travel through the stations.


----------



## Brian_tampa

This might help clear up item 4 below. Having talked to several AAF people over the years and with the previous head of FDOT, Ananth Prasad, you can be assured that the I-4 median 'HSR rail envelop' (in FDOT parlance) is most definitely being preserved both in the Orlando and Tampa areas. FDOT is designing their Orlando 'I-4 Ultimate Project' and the future 'Tampa Bay Express' toll lanes so that AAF can be constructed in the median of I-4 basically following the exact same route as the old HSR proposed route.

Of course AAF won't publicly talk of this but initial planning (preserving the ROW, etc..) for any potential Tampa extension is indeed underway. They have no other viable route other than the I-4 median. This has to be decided now as these are multi-decade long highway projects. From my understanding, AAF recognizes the importance of expanding their system from the original MIA to MCO route. They won't say so, but I would be surprised if AAF does not expand to Tampa and/or Jacksonville. Look at the 2006 FDOT report on future passenger rail - the potential is there for a lot of passengers between Tampa-Orlando-Miami. AAF is following that report to the letter by choosing the coastal route detailed in the report.

And the issues with PAB financing are not a show stopper. AAF will get built to Orlando. The NIMBYS of the Treasure Coast have lost. They know it and I suspect it is why their local newspaper (TC Palm) has come around to not trying to stop AAF but is now saying to work with AAF.



jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.
> 
> 
> 
> In Miami? Plausible; I could see AAF runnig something like a DMU shuttle (or a back-and-forth run with one or two sets) between MiamiCentral and the port.
> In Canaveral? Not a bloody chance. You'd have to put in a very high bridge over the Indian River and another one over the Banana River. However, I _think_ the old Cocoa FEC station is roughly at US1 and SR528...which would be a pretty good place to stage shuttle buses. I believe FEC has hinted that they're pursuing this option, especially since if their system is fully fleshed-out you'd have four destinations to take cruise pax (Jacksonville, South Florida, Orlando, and Tampa) for flights and/or other parts of a package.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anderson, think again.  For you pleasure I present to you:
> http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/9/3/brevard_county_railr.html
> 
> Yeah, there is a some jousting that will take place. But I think there i a very good chance that a spur at least for freight to Port Canaveral will be built and possibly along SR 528. A 50' above MSL railway bridge is not an unheard of thing in this day and age, and over the long run might be cheaper to operate than a lower alignment with two drawbridges.
> 
> BTW, the Cocoa AAF station if there is one (it is not a given, there are four plausible locations in Brevard County being explored and many believe Rockledge is a better location in North Brevard), it will be considerably south of SR 528, since the station has to be in a location after AAF comes off the ramp connecting to the Orlando ROW, They also have to design the whole thing keeping open the possibility of a junction with the future Cocoa to Port Canaveral link along SR 528, so very unlikely that there will be a station at or near SR 528 - US 1 intersection.
> 
> At the FRPC meeting yesterday three people from AAF came to give us an update about AAF. We asked many questions privately after the presentation. Some interesting tidbits that I gathered:
> 
> i. At present they are focused on getting the MIC - OIA service up and running. Even when they extend service from WPB to OIA they will not immediately do a local WPB tunr between MIC and WPB, or FLL or any such. Such might happen in the future depending on how things go.
> 
> ii. The next thing to do after service to OIA is station in Brevard County where negotiations on station location are in advanced stages.
> 
> iii. They are definitely protecting all rights to extend service to JAX, but currently no firm plans.
> 
> iv. They may consider Tampa at some point but it is too far away to talk any semblance of route details and such. They declined to answer a specific question about whether they would use the I-4 ROW.
> 
> v. They are currently on track to start MIC to WPB service mid 2017.
> 
> vi. They just got full access to the Cocoa - OIA ROW last week with the lease transfer of the last bit between SR 417 and OIA, and are now ready to start work on construction of the new track on the new ROW.
> 
> All this did not stop some in the audience from waxing poetic about "when AAF begins service to Ocala" and what not.  Jokingly the guy said something like 2075 for that.
> 
> Abbreviations used:
> 
> BTW: By The Way
> 
> AAF: All Aboard Florida
> 
> FEC: Florida East Coast - used as a short form to refer to Florida East Coast Railway (FECR).
> 
> FRPC: Florida Rail Passenger Coalition
> 
> ROW: Right Of Way
> 
> MIC: Miami Central
> 
> OIA: Orlando International Airport
> 
> WPB: West Palm Beach
> 
> FLL: Fort Lauderdale
> 
> JAX: Jacksonville
> 
> SR: State Route
> 
> US: US Highway
> 
> I: Interstate Highway
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

FDOT has been remarkable in preserving highway ROWs for rail. Witness the width of the ROW that they have preserved along most of I-95 too. If anyone ever want to build a true HSR along the east coast that ROW still remains a candidate given how much of relatively straight segments it has. The FEC line will never have trains travel on it any faster than 110mph. What they are building for the Miami - Orlando projects is at about the bleeding edge of what is achievable on that ROW, and we are all keeping our fingers crossed about the grade crossing issue that will inevitably crop up given the lack of driving skills of average Florida drivers.


----------



## Brian_tampa

That is my fear too. There are too many vehicle-train collisions in this state. I'm amazed at how Amtrak trains seem to act like a magnet! I hope that with the sealed corridor infrastructure, that dumb Florida drivers won't be able to collide with AAF trains.

Having been on I95 in St Lucie and Martin Counties recently, it appears that there is no more median available for the areas south of Port St Lucie. I don't know how true HSR would ever get built in South FL. Even in SW Florida between Ft Myers and Naples, the I75 median is being consumed by more roadway lanes.

Maybe the turnpike would be better in areas south of Ft Pierce?

As far as Tampa goes, I do know that there is ongoing conversation between the government leaders here and AAF. But it will all come down to ROI and how much the cost will be to build to Tampa. I did a very rough calculation using generic, publicly available cost numbers for bridge and track components and came up with a number of around $1.3B to build from Orlando to Tampa assuming mainly single track with four 10 mile long passing tracks and 125mph infrastructure.



jis said:


> FDOT has been remarkable in preserving highway ROWs for rail. Witness the width of the ROW that they have preserved along most of I-95 too. If anyone ever want to build a true HSR along the east coast that ROW still remains a candidate given how much of relatively straight segments it has. The FEC line will never have trains travel on it any faster than 110mph. What they are building for the Miami - Orlando projects is at about the bleeding edge of what is achievable on that ROW, and we are all keeping our fingers crossed about the grade crossing issue that will inevitably crop up given the lack of driving skills of average Florida drivers.


----------



## jis

Yeah. We in Central Florida tend to forget what an unholy mess it already is in South Florida! Last time I drove down to West palm beach I did get a taste of it. And it just gets worse as you get closer to Miami. The again the technique used all over Asia is still available. A lot of the new rail infrastructure is being build suspended way above crowded ground in urban and semi-urban areas. Typically they are being built on relatively aesthetic elevated structures 50' to 70' above the ground, so they do not block too much of the sky. The highway corridors can still be used in that way, though it does increase the cost of construction by quite a bit. But still it is much less than trying to acquire land in such areas.


----------



## Anderson

Jis,

You said that FEC won't have trains going faster than 110 MPH on a segment. Was that due to shared-use limits on the East Coast Line (or the added cost of breaking 110 MPH with grade crossings) or limits of their equipment (and if it's the latter, why spend on the 125 MPH infrastructure if they can't use it unless there's a plan for a "next gen" equipment set)?

And what Brian's saying all makes a _lot_ of sense to me. Considering the constraints they're operating with, they've got good reason to manage expectations (not to mention not rattling bondholders with the possibility of another $2bn bond issue for those two projects).


----------



## jis

There is absolutely no way to get a fully sealed corridor along the FEC alignment. That is why. No one is going to put up with massive grade crossing impenetrable gates anywhere along that ROW, and in most places there is not enough space to build overpasses, and underpasses will be underwater. The equipment (Chargers + Viaggio)is fine for 125mph, but they will never get track infrastructure along the shore on which 125mph will be allowed by the FRA because the necessary changes will not be accepted by the communities. FEC knows this very well and that is why they are managing expectations ratehr than leaning against impenetrable windmills.

They can and will run at 125mph once they gate onto the new grade separated infrastructure between Cocoa and OIA.


----------



## MattW

Is there enough un-crossed RoW south of Cocoa to allow anything greater than 110 for long enough stretches to make sense? Obviously with something silly like a mile between grade crossings, there's no reason to put the limit any higher, but any stretches with 5? 10? 20 miles between crossings?


----------



## jis

No.


----------



## MattW

Mmm, I could have probably answered that for myself, it looks like after Cocoa, the development never gets sparse. Even north of the Space Coast there are only a handful of areas of sparser development.


----------



## Anderson

Yeah...I went and looked and the only sort-of-plausible area would probably be north of Daytona...at which point you're fighting over _maybe_ 2-3 minutes on something like a five-hour run.


----------



## jis

The only way we will ever get 125mph or higher railroad along the east coast is if a new line is built along the I-95 (and perhaps Turnpike south of WPB) ROW. It will most likely have to be a continuous elevated structure ike the original Shinkansen was at many places. Fortunately, probably not many people will mind an elevated structure it the rail ROW is properly sound barriered.


----------



## Anderson

Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks. I _think_ he said they were pretty well set with funding (they'd do it internally if all else failed).


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks. I _think_ he said they were pretty well set with funding (they'd do it internally if all else failed).


I have heard such a rumor too. The holdup apparently is getting agreement on stations, where, who funds and how. Getting agreements in place with the towns is muddied in some places by the bad blood on Orlando service. I suspect it is on the shelf unto 2018 or 19.


----------



## MattW

That's pretty impressive that they want to fund it themselves. Of course, by "fund" I assume they basically mean the capital improvements, which looking from the business perspective, means the FEC (or FECI, or whoever own who this weeK) gets its properties a direct rail link to the northeast with little more than an initial investment, that will be eclipsed by any potential COC-JAX improvements as well as providing a reason to jump-start that end of the corridor, and possibly receiving Federal aid since we're talking an interstate route here.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Check it out everyone, the first passenger car shell completed.

http://gobrightline.com/press/press-releases/2016/01/26/brightline-trains-taking-shape-siemens-completes-first-passenger-coach-shell


----------



## jis

Cool! Looks really good. Very European!


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Cool! Looks really good. Very European!


Ditto!


----------



## Palmetto

Ah well. The leadership in Martin County is meeting to decide whether they should authorize spending yet more money on opposing Brightline.


----------



## Anderson

Nice-looking shell. I wish it was fluted (I don't think I'm alone), but it looks nice and I'm glad to see the windows look decent-sized. I will say, due to exposure bias, my immediate thought was "looks Acela-ish".


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Here are some more pics from Siemens.

http://news.usa.siemens.biz/blog/mobility/photos-first-look-brightline-trains-taking-shape-siemens-rail-manufacturing-hub-sacram


----------



## MikefromCrete

It will be interesting to see how long it takes this order to be completed. I bet Brightline gets its entire order before CAF can finish hte Amtrak Viewliner order.


----------



## jis

The first tranche is 20 or 25 cars plus ten AAF Chargers. They will be kept as Semi-married sets of four or five cars and two locos each.

So it really shouldn't take that long. AAF probably needs something by year end to start testing and familiarization. Siemens maintenance crew at West Palm Beach also need to get trained. The maintenance facility at WPB is supposed be commissioned this August.


----------



## Palmetto

Will all the double-tracking and station construction fall into place on time? Seems ambitious.


----------



## jis

Every bit is now actively under construction. Only time will tell.


----------



## jphjaxfl

In 2 years or so, Brightline will be speeding passengers from Miami to Orlando International and reverse. Seems very efficient considering the various negative encounters they have been subject. I and others in Florida look forward to our first ride on a truly modern rail passenger system.


----------



## jis

In terms of amenities and ambiance, though not in maximum speed, it promises to give the Acela service run for its money, possibly at a somewhat lower price point. The latter has to do with what the market will bear in Florida.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks. I _think_ he said they were pretty well set with funding (they'd do it internally if all else failed).


what are platform lengths like? Would it even be possible to handle such a train without doing lots of modifications?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Another nice photo of the Brightline car shell from Siemens. Yes, the windows seem large enuff!

http://www.railwayage.com/media/k2/items/cache/682741b117791827941232da57754db7_XL.jpg

Brian_FL posting at cahsrblog.com says it shows Gene Skoropowski (famed for the Capitol Corridor success before getting hired to do All Aboard Florida) is 4th from left.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks.


That's nice. Once FEC/AAF/Brightline is up and running, Miami-Orlando business on Amtrak will evaporate. Amtrak needs to think carefully about the Florida market situation at that point. Perhaps the Meteor should have a section on FEC and a section to Orlando (serviced at Sanford), with no section taking the current route to Miami, for example. The Silver Star could continue to serve the inland route until AAF builds a Tampa extension, at which point more thought would need to be put into reconfiguring the network.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice. Once FEC/AAF/Brightline is up and running, Miami-Orlando business on Amtrak will evaporate. Amtrak needs to think carefully about the Florida market situation at that point. Perhaps the Meteor should have a section on FEC and a section to Orlando (serviced at Sanford), with no section taking the current route to Miami, for example. The Silver Star could continue to serve the inland route until AAF builds a Tampa extension, at which point more thought would need to be put into reconfiguring the network.
Click to expand...

At that point I think the best option would be to return to the "old" splits, with an Orlando-Tampa section which terminates in Tampa (Orlando-Tampa traffic wouldn't be great, but Elsewhere-Tampa traffic would still be a thing) and add service to the OIA station (yes, it would involve a backup move...but I think you'd add significant traffic, especially as there's actually _parking_ at OIA).


----------



## jis

It would also involve Amtrak funding the construction of an additional platform at OIA. Nothing comes for free.  The primary platform reachable from the Sandlake Road side or the Poinciana side will be a SunRail platform. I would love to see a cost justification for bringing one Amtrak train per day to OIA when that connection can be provided for nothing by SunRail. And no AAF will not allow its platform to be used for anything else at OIA. I have asked that question.


----------



## jis

First Chargers for AAF to roll out in May....

http://gobrightline.com/buzz/2016/02/01/brightline-and-siemens-speeding-toward-the-future-of-train-travel

Here is a short video from Siemens about the Viaggio package. It shows an electric set. AAF's will be the first diesel powered Viaggio (Comfort America).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6-6ywfQZKk


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> AAF's will be the first diesel powered Viaggio (Comfort America).


First anythings make me very nervous.

And, point of order, there is no such thing as OIA. The official ICAO code for Orlando International Airport is MCO. Though I will concede that OIA will pull up Orlando International Airport on search engines...



neroden said:


> That's nice. Once FEC/AAF/Brightline is up and running, Miami-Orlando business on Amtrak will evaporate.


Nah. Don't think so. Amtrak will continue to be the low cost, single seat option for trips beyond Orlando. I really think Brightline will be an all new market. Like, say, from the Florida Fun Train! 

On a more sentimental note, I must say how deeply bummed I am that I didn't have the passion I have today for trains in my younger adult life.

I lived in Kissimmee during the time of the FFT and even went to Miami - by car - during that time.

I got to see the Denver Ski Train, but unfortunately never got to ride it.

In college, Amtrak came right through Longview, yet I took a dumb Greyhoud to Dallas (in the scary(-ier?) years.

I've been lucky to ride Mexico's passenger rail service from Zacatecas overnight to Nuevo Laredo the year before it was abandoned.

Been on the Georgetown Loop before it was abandoned, but it came back. Same with the Texas State Railroad between Palestine and Rusk.

Been ALMOST coast to coast on Amtrak with that nagging section between Dallas and Albuquerque (yes, I know they don't connect) eluding me.

OK. Don't mean to hijack this thread. Sentimental Journey over...


----------



## jis

You may like it or not, doesn't really matter. Orlando International Airport is very often referred to as OIA and seldom as MCO in Orlando.


----------



## jis

Some more news about Jacksonville extension of AAF at some later stage....

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-dec-high-speed-rail-project-has-its-eye-jacksonville


----------



## chrsjrcj

I made a trip on the Florida Fun Train. Wasn't a bad ride, and I loved the huge sightseeing windows.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Looks like we won't be hearing "Mind the gap" or "Watch the gap" for Brightline.


----------



## Palmetto

The folks in Martin County are spending $850,000.00 more on fighting Brightline. Somebody's making a lot of money on this fight, don't you think?


----------



## jis

Meanwhile the emergency workers in Martin County haven't had a raise in years and are leaving for other places. Someone in Martin County government really does not care much to serve his or her constituents' basic needs much.


----------



## neroden

The problem with terminating a Silver Service train in Tampa is that there's no servicing location there; this means Amtrak cannot terminate a train there. It really would have been better if the Tampa-Orlando Florida HSR project had been built.


----------



## Eric S

neroden said:


> The problem with terminating a Silver Service train in Tampa is that there's no servicing location there; this means Amtrak cannot terminate a train there. It really would have been better if the Tampa-Orlando Florida HSR project had been built.


What did Amtrak do in the past when there were separate Miami and Tampa sections of various Silver Service trains? Was there once some sort of servicing facility?


----------



## jis

Yes, Tampa had a servicing facility back then. You can still see remnants of it around Tampa station.


----------



## jis

From Florida Today:



> MELBOURNE — City leaders hope the future Brightline express trains operated by All Aboard Florida will pick up and drop off passengers at a station located downtown, in South Melbourne or adjacent to Orlando Melbourne International Airport.
> 
> Tuesday night, the Melbourne City Council unanimously targeted a trio of potential station sites for All Aboard Florida — or a future commuter rail service.


See more at: http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2016/02/24/melbourne-leaders-eye-all-aboard-florida-station-sites/80549998/


----------



## jis

Yesterday (3/4/16) an AAF representative came to the FRPC Meeting in Winter Park and gave us an update. Here are some salient point:

1. Construction is in full swing for all of Phase I (Miami - WPB). The basic building structure for Miami Central should be in place by late this year. We were invited to hold a meeting down there late this year. Service is still expected to begin late 2017.

2. Two full train sets are currently under construction by Siemens in California. They will be delivered late this year for testing and certification, the remaining three sets for Phase 1 will follow in first half or so in 2017. (My note: This would suggest that AAF will likely receive ten Chargers by late 2017 as part of the five trainsets for Phase I. They will receive the other 10 by late 2018.))

3. Seats will be reserved assigned seating. Got some more details on the automatically deploying bridge plates at each door. Neat thing. It is designed to work with variation in platform height of several inches.

4. Food service will be buffet style in the Cafe, no Diner style at table service.

5. AAF has a meeting with Brevard County this coming week to begin the process of site selection with the County for the Brevard County station, which is now said to be part of Phase 3 (the phase after service to Orlando goes on line (which is Phase 2).

6. The station in Brevard County will be funded primarily and owned by AAF, (My note: I would expect there to be some significant commercial development by AAF in the area around the station.)

7. Construction of the OIA intermodal station and the people mover connecting it to the current North Termnal is already in full swing.

8. Construction north of WPB is expected to begin late this year. All the land needed for construction between Cocoa and OIA is now in possession of AAF. There are still legal issues to resolve in Martin and Indian River Counties. (My note: Remember that those NIMBY's also delayed construction of I-95 by 20 years. So worst case service to Orlando may have to begin with operation on upgraded current track at a slower speed initially, while they carry on with their obstruction. But it is a matter of time. They will ultimately not prevail because the property is already owned by FEC and it is already zoned for railroad.)

9. Service to Orlando is now slated for late '18/early '19.

TAFN


----------



## Caesar La Rock

The fact that the WPB to OIA section is delayed until late 2018 to early 2019 isn't surprising, considering the obstacles the project has faced as a whole. Glad the delay isn't too significant. As for OIA's intermodal station, that's great.


----------



## Palmetto

Jis-

Was there any evidence of the "oppositionalists" from Martin County in attendance?


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Jis-
> 
> Was there any evidence of the "oppositionalists" from Martin County in attendance?


None of them are members of FRPC so no none were present at the meeting.


----------



## me_little_me

Caesar La Rock said:


> The fact that the WPB to OIA section is delayed until late 2018 to early 2019 isn't surprising, considering the obstacles the project has faced as a whole. Glad the delay isn't too significant. As for OIA's intermodal station, that's great.


Speak for yourself. At my age a year's delay may be a lifetime.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that the WPB to OIA section is delayed until late 2018 to early 2019 isn't surprising, considering the obstacles the project has faced as a whole. Glad the delay isn't too significant. As for OIA's intermodal station, that's great.
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself. At my age a year's delay may be a lifetime.
Click to expand...

It's all probabilistic. But a five year delay is more likely to be a lifetime than a year's delay, won't you agree?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Looks like they are about to start double tracking in Palm Beach County. This is looking south from the Okeechobee crossing in downtown West Palm Beach:


----------



## chrsjrcj

Went by the Mimi station site today and it's certainly a site to see. Vertical columns that will soon carry brightline trains over downtown streets are being installed. You can definitely start to see how trains will make their ascent to the station.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

chrsjrcj said:


> Went by the Mimi station site today and it's certainly a site to see. Vertical columns that will soon carry brightline trains over downtown streets are being installed. You can definitely start to see how trains will make their ascent to the station.


Did you snap any pictures of it?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

http://gobrightline.com/buzz/2016/04/04/brightline-train-construction-update


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Caesar La Rock said:


> http://gobrightline.com/buzz/2016/04/04/brightline-train-construction-update


Nice! I can't wait to see the locos and cars once they're complete!


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> Went by the Mimi station site today and it's certainly a site to see. Vertical columns that will soon carry brightline trains over downtown streets are being installed. You can definitely start to see how trains will make their ascent to the station.


Does the descent start immediately on leaving the station, or does the vidauct keep going for a bit.

I can imagine the latter option would help remove crossings whereas the former would help trains accelerate while saving fuel, while also help them slow down on arrival while saving brake pads.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Check out the progress on the construction of the West Palm Beach station.

http://gobrightline.com/buzz/2016/03/30/brightline-west-palm-beach-station-construction-progress

https://youtu.be/d2skHp7xriE


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Any more progress news?


----------



## jis

Get the latest update yourself from http://www.gobrightline.com/  About half way down the page are all the specific updates.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Will the coaches have Roller Bearing trucks like most American equipment, or Journal Bearing trucks?


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Will the coaches have Roller Bearing trucks like most American equipment, or Journal Bearing trucks?


Roller bearings are standard now, much more efficient and less likely to catch fire.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Will the coaches have Roller Bearing trucks like most American equipment, or Journal Bearing trucks?


Does anyone actually manufacture any new passenger rolling stock with journal bearing anymore? For that matter is any modern freight car using journal bearings?

The Viaggios are modern cars with roller bearings.


----------



## frequentflyer

Question, FEC would not do this if it was not profitable, so how is FEC is making money on this Pax operation where Amtrak struggles?


----------



## jis

FECI is not depending on the Brightline Service being exceedingly profitable all by itself. It is looking at the whole All Aboard Florida package which involves a huge real estate component at each station which is supported by the passenger rail service. Remember FECI's history. It is primarily a real estate operation with a railroad attached to serve the real estate by bringing people to the properties. They are following the same model by providing efficient transport avoiding the perennial south Florida traffic jams. That is the big difference with Amtrak.

Again as a reminder, FEC Industries (FECI) and FEC Railroad (FECR) are two subsidiaries of Fortress Group. All Aboard Florida (AAF) which is developing the Brightline Service, supporting infrastructure and over two million square feet of associated real estate is a subsidiary of FECI.

This is also the reason that the starry eyed folks who think that the FECI experiment can be duplicated easily elsewhere or that FECI will someday extend its service to Atlanta or such are going to be sorely disappointed. After doing Cocoa to JAX, and as an outside chance Orlando to Tampa, they will be happy to milk it all for all it is worth and not bother to go elsewhere, unless they happen to get into a huge real estate deal somewhere else.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> This is also the reason that the starry eyed folks who think that the FECI experiment can be duplicated easily elsewhere or that FECI will someday extend its service to Atlanta or such are going to be sorely disappointed. After doing Coca to JAX, and as an outside chance Orlando to Tampa, they will be happy to milk it all for all it is worth and not bother to go elsewhere, unless they happen to get into a huge real estate deal somewhere else.


I would even venture to say that I'll believe JAX and Tampa when I see them. Initailly they will run from Miami to West Palm Beach. After that they may probably do Orlando and beyond that they may well say, if you want more service your government will have to subsidize it. Does FEC have any notable real estate in Tampa or JAX? If not, what's the point in them going there?


----------



## jis

The thing about JAX is, they have as much as said that they will eventually go there, and I don't have a reason to disbelieve them. And yes, they do own some significant develop-able property adjacent to the FECR RoW and elsewhere in JAX apparently. Similarly they do own develop-able property in Daytona and also around St. Augustin and whole pile of it around their big facility in New Smyrna.

The first thing that will happen after service is extended to Orlando is addition of about three stations between WPB and Orlando, one of them most likely at Cocoa.

JAX will come sometime after that. Tampa, I have my doubts.


----------



## Alex M.

How many properties, if any, does FEC own in the vicinity of the Osborn Convention center AKA the old Jacksonville Terminal? I have seen plans of passenger rail service returning there. If so, could Brightline run the east coast section of one of Amtrak's Silver trains if and when they split at JAX under contract?


----------



## jis

All sorts of exciting possibilities open up indeed. However, at present it is too early to tell.

Jacksonville City wants to get the train station back by Osborne Center. However, that would reinstate the need for backup moves for trains that operate between New York or New Orleans and Orlando and call at Jacksonville, due to the layout of the links into the area, that are almost impossible to change.

BTW, there already is a DEIS for extending sections of the Silver Service down FEC to Miami.

So we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Palmetto

Would Amtrak be able to call at that station? Seems the current one is akin to Staples Mill Rd in Richmond [too far out of center-city].


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Would Amtrak be able to call at that station? Seems the current one is akin to Staples Mill Rd in Richmond [too far out of center-city].


They would be able to do so as all Seaboard trains did. You just have to back out of it a little ways, or back into it, since both the line towards New York and Orlando head out towards the north from that station.

As I said before, the City of Jacksonville does want to reincarnate that station by what is now the Convention Center, and located close to downtown.


----------



## Anderson

The other thing is that the Brightline model is based on the following factors:
(1) Density of service. Service is expected to start at hourly trains all day, not unlike the Acela or Regional services; it is quite believable that trains could end up running a bit more than hourly at peak times.

(2) Density of population and the size of the existing markets. Yes, there's a gap between WPB and MCO, but South Florida and Orlando are both major population centers at about the right distance to make this work, and there's a not-insignificant amount of traffic already between these markets...as well as within South Florida (where the traffic just sucks).

(3) High average speed and reasonable runtime. End-to-end runtime should be around 3:00 (which is about as long as you want a train trip to be so it can compete with other modes) with an _average _speed of about 80 MPH. Only the Acela (and only south of NYP) reaches this average speed. Within South Florida, the runtimes are quite short (I think it's about 1:00 or 1:15 Miami-West Palm Beach, versus 2:00 or so on Tri-Rail).

(4) Ability to operate with limited expected interference. The business model inherently presumes that the passenger trains will be given high priority on the Miami-Cocoa segment (and have exclusive use of the Cocoa-Orlando segment), something Amtrak can rarely point to elsewhere.

As a general rule, Amtrak routes with a good host railroad and fast, frequent service tend to do pretty well (notwithstanding non-market pressures to cap fares). It's once-daily (or less) operations that have to support a dozen stations which have the most trouble.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

So this happened, even more good news for this project. 

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/in-the-news/press-releases/2016/05/04/brightline-final-plans-approved-for-brevard-indian-river-and-all-the-treasure-coast


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would Amtrak be able to call at that station? Seems the current one is akin to Staples Mill Rd in Richmond [too far out of center-city].
> 
> 
> 
> They would be able to do so as all Seaboard trains did. You just have to back out of it a little ways, or back into it, since both the line towards New York and Orlando head out towards the north from that station.
> As I said before, the City of Jacksonville does want to reincarnate that station by what is now the Convention Center, and located close to downtown.
Click to expand...

Or just leave Amtrak where it's at, let Briteline come into the Osborne station, and extend the stupid people mover 4 miles to connect to the existing Amtrak station (which they should have done when they built the thing).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> Or just leave Amtrak where it's at, let Briteline come into the Osborne station, and extend the stupid people mover 4 miles to connect to the existing Amtrak station (which they should have done when they built the thing).


What benefit is that? Is there any reason to extend the people mover to the Amtrak station OTHER than for Amtrak passengers?

If not... just run a dedicated bus from the Convention Center to the Amtrak Station around the Amtrak call times.


----------



## jphjaxfl

crescent-zephyr said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or just leave Amtrak where it's at, let Briteline come into the Osborne station, and extend the stupid people mover 4 miles to connect to the existing Amtrak station (which they should have done when they built the thing).
> 
> 
> 
> What benefit is that? Is there any reason to extend the people mover to the Amtrak station OTHER than for Amtrak passengers?
> 
> If not... just run a dedicated bus from the Convention Center to the Amtrak Station around the Amtrak call times.
Click to expand...

Jacksonville Transit Authority currently runs a bus from the Amtrak Station to downtown Jacksonville all day Sunday through Saturday. It wouldn't be very cost effective to extend the "Skyway" people mover to Amtrak. There is a need for better transportation to JIA, but no existing rail lines go close so very expensive to build.


----------



## VentureForth

I'm just a fan of taking the train as far as you can. There really wouldn't be a benefit - other than to the people mover itself which is pretty useless as-is (though ridership is growing, so long as it's free).


----------



## Caesar La Rock

The Fort Lauderdale station is about to rise.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-brightline-update-20160513-story.html


----------



## chrsjrcj

The West Palm Beach station is well on its way. Here are some photos I took a few days ago:

http://imgur.com/hMSN4mw

http://imgur.com/YPr6yQr

http://imgur.com/4AN0hrf


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Well Tri-Rail will connect with Brightline at the Miami Central station.

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2016/05/17/tri-rail-connection-new-miamicentral-station-advances/


----------



## City of Miami

Caesar La Rock said:


> Well Tri-Rail will connect with Brightline at the Miami Central station.


This is different from the airport station where Tri-Rail goes now?


----------



## jis

City of Miami said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Tri-Rail will connect with Brightline at the Miami Central station.
> 
> 
> 
> This is different from the airport station where Tri-Rail goes now?
Click to expand...

Yes. This is the FEC All Aboard Florida station in downtown Miami. Not the station at the airport where TriRail goes now.


----------



## City of Miami

jis said:


> Yes. This is the FEC All Aboard Florida station in downtown Miami. Not the station at the airport where TriRail goes now.


OK, where in downtown Miami is it located.......as in cross-streets?


----------



## jis

Google is your friend 

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/stations/miami-central


----------



## City of Miami

jis said:


> Google is your friend
> 
> http://www.allaboardflorida.com/stations/miami-central


It looks like it is a couple of blocks north of the current govt center station for MetroRail and the mover. In March I was in this area several times and I did not notice any particular heavy construction; of course, I didn't know what to look for. It's all so close together why is it advantageous for Tri-Rail to move? Especially since they parallel each other pretty much the entire length of Tri-Rail. One walks further than that for many NYC subway connections.
It also looks like there is a RR line that comes down from the north to that area and then veers east to the Port area. Is this the trackage they will use.


----------



## jis

The track coming from the north is the FEC main line that will be used by AAF Brightline. Eventually there is a plan to run TriRail on it all the way to Jupiter for now. But at present TreRail will cross over from its current route to join the FEC along the FEC branch that heads west and intersects with TriRail near Hialeah Market.

Here is the future plan for the eastern corridor:

http://www.tri-railcoastallinkstudy.com/

Here is an article on the TriRail Miami Central connection

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article18291674.html


----------



## City of Miami

Thanks. This is why I ask questions - to bring the picture into focus. I liked Miami and expect to return by next winter.


----------



## cirdan

City of Miami said:


> It also looks like there is a RR line that comes down from the north to that area and then veers east to the Port area. Is this the trackage they will use.


That spur is used by FEC to serve the port.

I understand the line was out of use for quite a stretch due to hurricane damage to one of the bridges, but this was recently repaired, I think with the help of some TIGER money.

I'm not sure how intensively the line is used. Looking at Google Earth there doesn't appear to be space to load more than one train at a time. I think in the past there used to be more rail spurs in the port area but these have not been put back.

Presently the port traffic has the line to itself but it is being upgraded for Brightline, who will be the main user.


----------



## jis

FEC is in the process of reactivating its Port Miami access in a very big way. Here is an article describing some of what is going on: http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/05/07/seaport-rail-expand/

Here is a brief description from Port Miami: http://www.miamidade.gov/portmiami/rail-restoration.asp

Another one from Port Miami and FEC: http://www.miamidade.gov/portmiami/on-dock-rail.asp


----------



## chrsjrcj

Now hiring- locomotive engineers

I'll be curious to see what type of folks do they go after. Current FEC train crew, Amtrak crew, Tr-Rail crew? I imagine a mixture of both. I also suppose that depends on how competitive the pay is (which isn't listed, and is probably negotiable depending on experience).


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> Now hiring- locomotive engineers
> 
> I'll be curious to see what type of folks do they go after. Current FEC train crew, Amtrak crew, Tr-Rail crew? I imagine a mixture of both. I also suppose that depends on how competitive the pay is (which isn't listed, and is probably negotiable depending on experience).


I'm surprised they're looking for fully trained engineers.

I guess there aren't too many of those in Florida sitting around in Florida looking for a job,

So either they'll have to poach them from other employers / Railroads (Amtrak, Tr-Rail, CSX, etc) which will only work if they offer significantly better pay or working conditions.

Or they will have to train them themselves, which I would have considered the more logical path.


----------



## Palmetto

It's likely the larger railroads have furloughed some engineers due to the downturn in freight traffic.


----------



## cirdan

Palmetto said:


> It's likely the larger railroads have furloughed some engineers due to the downturn in freight traffic.


good point.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

So this is happening.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-orlando-airport-south-terminal-traffic-20160602-story.html


----------



## jis

I just drove by there the other day. Amazingly massive construction! You can already see the rail right of way coming in from the north into the station that AAF will follow.

Of course it is more than just a rail station. It involves a huge parking structure and starting construction next year is the South Air Terminal Complex Phase I with twenty something gates, part of which will become the International Terminal when completed.

And then, SunRail will come in from the South and a Light Rail line will be built to I-Drive area allegedly. Of course the inter terminal people mover is already under construction to connect the current North Terminal Complex to the new South Terminal Complex and Intermodal station.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Kind of going off topic, but a provision for light rail (or some sort of rail system), which I recently heard might also happen soon. Not sure how soon, but I was told it could be running by 2019. Some of the proposed stops are:

- Universal Orlando 

- Kirkman Road 
- Destination Parkway
- SeaWorld Orlando

Source for this information came from someone who works at a theme park, which could be getting the said service.


----------



## jis

Caesar, the catch has been getting funding for the LRT. The owners of the various theme parks and the City of Orlando and FDOT have been playing range chicken. Of course, under mister baldy in Tallahassee FDOT is a mere sideline observer. So it is between the parks and Orlando as to who blinks and puts money on the table. If the parks bring enough money on the table to justify Orlando to bring in some matching funds it could happen quickly. But without the financial participation of the parks, I am afraid we will wait quite a while.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> Caesar, the catch has been getting funding for the LRT. The owners of the various theme parks and the City of Orlando and FDOT have been playing range chicken. Of course, under mister baldy in Tallahassee FDOT is a mere sideline observer. So it is between the parks and Orlando as to who blinks and puts money on the table. If the parks bring enough money on the table to justify Orlando to bring in some matching funds it could happen quickly. But without the financial participation of the parks, I am afraid we will wait quite a while.


You gave a very good explanation as to why this is project hasn't happened any sooner. Anyone that has been following LRT proposals in Orlando, the idea has been all talk and no action since no funding was provided.

They're basically addressing a transportation bottleneck that has plagued places like I-Drive since the early 90s. As for whether this will finally happen it's too soon to tell, but lightning has already struck twice if you know what I mean.


----------



## jis

The first Brightline Charger ... taking shape at Siemens ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkXu4UhUYAE5iP0.jpg


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The first Brightline Charger ... taking shape at Siemens ...
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkXu4UhUYAE5iP0.jpg


Good find.

This engine actually looks even smarter in the blood than it did on artist's impressions.


----------



## AG1

_"Good find._

_This engine actually looks even smarter in the blood than it did on artist's impressions."_

Google and I have never heard that expression before. Please translate "smarter in the blood" for us.


----------



## jis

I think he means *smarter in real life* than in the artist's impression pictures.


----------



## CCC1007

RRRick said:


> _"Good find._
> 
> _This engine actually looks even smarter in the blood than it did on artist's impressions."_
> 
> Google and I have never heard that expression before. Please translate "smarter in the blood" for us.


I would guess they mean "better in reality than the artist impressions.


----------



## CCC1007

RRRick said:


> _"Good find._
> 
> _This engine actually looks even smarter in the blood than it did on artist's impressions."_
> 
> Google and I have never heard that expression before. Please translate "smarter in the blood" for us.


I would guess they mean "better in reality than the artist impressions.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

RRRick said:


> _"Good find._
> 
> _This engine actually looks even smarter in the blood than it did on artist's impressions."_
> 
> Google and I have never heard that expression before. Please translate "smarter in the blood" for us.


I take it to mean "in real life" aka a live picture rather than a drawing.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

That engine is absolutely gorgeous!

We are in the middle of a downpour where I am, and it really cheers things up.

I want to see it even more in real life, like riding a car in back of it right now, with coffee being served at my seat  . Well, maybe I should wait til they put the glass and the lights in first! 

Also, not having paid much attention to train tires, I don't have a frame of reference, but they look a bit small--are they just the core of the tires and more will be added later?


----------



## jis

Those are not the final trucks with traction motors etc. that it is standing on. Those are temporary trucks for moving around the shop I think. The final trucks will be essentially very similar to the ones we see on the Sprinters, and they will have the external yaw dampers and all that paraphernalia for stable ride, which will be clearly visible.

But as far as final height goes, it won't be a very tall locomotive. It will be the same 12' 6" height as the Chargers and the Sprinters.

But yes, I truly love the looks of it. Looks much much better than the run of the mill Chargers that the states are getting.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Oh, of course--silly of me to not realize it was being moved around the shop--thanks, jis.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Trains don't have "tires" except toy ones Patty! The correct terminology is Wheels! ( as in "..Steel wheels keep on turning.. ")


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, Jim. I have now embarrassed myself twice! :blush:

After all the things I have learned here, just shows how much more there is to learn! (and I am not going to admit I don't remember who those lyrics were from--Doobie brothers?)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thanks, Jim. I have now embarrassed myself twice! :blush:
> 
> After all the things I have learned here, just shows how much more there is to learn! (and I am not going to admit I don't remember who those lyrics were from--Doobie brothers?)


You should hop on the AEM-7 Farewell Excursion train and then you'd get to go to the Wilmington Shops and see the wheels and other neat stuff...and of course, engines.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

It is tempting, and I thought about it, but it would make me sad.  I love the AEM-7s and don't want to say goodbye to them. I'm sure there will be another shop tour somewhere sometime, and I will go on one eventually.


----------



## afigg

Railway Gazette has an article on the Siemens Brightline equipment under construction with a photo of one of the coach car frames along with the photo of the locomotive: Brightline unveils Siemens locomotives and coaches.

Excerpt:



> The stainless steel passenger coaches are the first to be manufactured by Siemens in the USA. Fully-compliant with ADA accessibility requirements and designed for level boarding without steps, they will be painted in bright colours and will offer wi-fi, power sockets, bicycle and luggage space and be ‘pet friendly’. Siemens will maintain the fleet at a new depot in West Palm Beach.


The Charger locomotive in the photo looks good. Although Brightline should stock up on replacement noses given the number of grade crossings on the route and the demonstrated propensity of Florida drivers to try to beat the train....


----------



## MattW

Bob Dylan said:


> Trains don't have "tires" except toy ones Patty! The correct terminology is Wheels! ( as in "..Steel wheels keep on turning.. ")


Well, actually, trains can have tires: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_tire


----------



## Brian_tampa

Per Trains newswire today, even Amtrak's Joe Boardman is impressed with the Siemens train cars.

Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman saw the Brightline cars in early June when attending an event marking delivery of the final ACS-64 locomotive and remarked on the new equipment.

“I’m not going to sell for Siemens, but I was tremendously impressed with what they are doing with coaches that they are building for All Aboard Florida — they are [accessible for people with disabilities] moving anywhere in the coach and the train — I’m very, very interested in that,” Boardman said.

Link:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/06/09-brightline-unveil


----------



## Alex M.

Since they are being built in California and used first in Florida, would Rep. Denham and Mica steer Amtrak to buy any future short distance cars from Siemens, without running afoul of conflict of interest rules of course.


----------



## afigg

Boardman won't be in charge whenever Amtrak and the eastern states get around to placing orders for single level coach cars, but with an active production line, Siemens is in a position to lobby the key players in Congress. Some campaign donations won't hurt either.

Another report by Trains magazine on the Siemens coach cars, this one on passing the 800,000 pound compression test: So Far, So Good.

Wonder if the Siemens design engineers re and re-checked the design and construction work after the Nippon-Sharyo test failure to be sure their coach car would pass?


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> Wonder if the Siemens design engineers re and re-checked the design and construction work after the Nippon-Sharyo test failure to be sure their coach car would pass?


I don't think Nippon Sharyo's design has anything to do with Siemens' single level design.

The issue with NS's design was they failed to design properly for a center sill-less car and that caused the failure.

Siemens is building normal cars with both center and side sills which have already passed European high speed buff strength requirements, and strengthening the sills for US is a trivial upgrade design-wise. In short they had nothing new to design, just change a few parameters in a pre-existing design, unlike what NS had to do.

But of course, in general it is prudent to check and recheck designs irrespective of what misfortune befalls a competitor.


----------



## chrsjrcj

It probably doesn't take much to impress Mr Boardman, considering a few of his LD trains are running without a real diner (or none at all)


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> It probably doesn't take much to impress Mr Boardman, considering a few of his LD trains are running without a real diner (or none at all)


I am told that it is a bit more than just Boardman getting impressed. There were other Amtrak operations people present who also were impressed. AAF apprently faught a bit of a battle with the engineers and finally got their way on several issues where the engineers wanted to cut corners at the expense of passenger comfort. of course we will have to wait and see what the outcome looks like.

Of course Boardman may be many things good or bad, but he is not a magician. The reason that trains are running without Diners primarily because delivery of new Diners is years behind and old Diners had had their periodic maintenance discontinued based on a delivery plan that CAF failed to meet. So it is not clear that these two issues have any connection with each other except as a joke


----------



## jis

Here is a relatively long video from CNBC on the Brightline trains being manufactured by Siemens in Sacramento...

https://www.facebook.com/cnbc/videos/vb.97212224368/10154390039979369/?type=2&theater

It is on Facebook but should be accessible by all, even those with no account on Facebook.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thanks, Jim. I have now embarrassed myself twice! :blush:
> 
> After all the things I have learned here, just shows how much more there is to learn! (and I am not going to admit I don't remember who those lyrics were from--Doobie brothers?)


I'm not finding "steel wheels keep on turning." But "big wheel keep on turning" was a phrase in "Proud Mary" by John Fogarty of Credence Clearwater Revival, covered by, among others, Tina Turner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJGoNeM3WzY

Edit: Well, look at that. Always before I just do a link and can't get it to embed. Now here, OFF TOPIC as I am, the Amtrak Unlimited system posts the whole dayum video. LOL. But I don't have the heart to delete it.


----------



## afigg

More photos, including several photos of the interior from what looks to be a mockup or first article coach car, and info from the tour at Siemens in Railway Age: Brightline trainsets taking shape.

Excerpts:



> Brightline trainsets are fully accessible train, “exceeding ADA compliance standards and addressing the needs of passengers by providing end-to-end mobility for all travelers,” Brightline said. “To do this, Brightline trainsets feature high-level boarding, utilizing retractable platforms that are integrated into the door systems. Prior to the doors opening, the platforms will extend up to 12 inches from the train and pivot to create a flush surface for passengers to cross, making it easy for those with mobility challenges, pushing strollers or luggage to board Brightline. Once on board, passengers will find Brightline aisles are 32 inches wide, providing ample space for wheelchairs and strollers to easily glide throughout the coach with access to all areas, including the restrooms. Interior vestibule doors will also slide open and close automatically.”


----------



## Brian_tampa

More pics of AAF trains being built from USA today

http://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/2016/06/09/inside-the-siemens-train-factory-where-brightline-is-being-built/85651690/


----------



## Brian_tampa

This is very good news... those asses on the Treasure Coast deserve this! I hope Indian River county commissioner Bob Solari is run out of office. He is a major factor in IRC fighting AAF. What jerks they are... Good for AAF!

I don't even feel bad for the taxpayers there for having wasted millions of their tax money. I wonder what excuses they will have? LOL

http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/06/10/all-aboard-florida-says-lawsuit-dismissed/


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> Here is a relatively long video from CNBC on the Brightline trains being manufactured by Siemens in Sacramento...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/cnbc/videos/vb.97212224368/10154390039979369/?type=2&theater
> 
> It is on Facebook but should be accessible by all, even those with no account on Facebook.


USA Today link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2016/06/10/brightline-florida-passenger-train-rail-cars/85651126/


----------



## Woodcut60

Very interesting. I was in Florida last month, on the Silver Service, but I'd love to ride this train.


----------



## Karl1459

Bob Dylan said:


> Trains don't have "tires" except toy ones Patty! The correct terminology is Wheels! ( as in "..Steel wheels keep on turning.. ")


Mostly correct in modern practice. Most steam locomotive driving wheels are two piece with an inner wheel and an outer tire. Some antique rail cars had tires during the transition from iron to steel, and also experiments with other materials (including pressed paper) for the wheel to dampen vibration. I believe but cannot confirm right now that some European stuff (French likely) have some composite wheel sets.


----------



## Northeastern292

I'm impressed. I still don't see how viable AAF/Brightline will be until the West Palm Beach-Orlando link is finished. AAF is competing with Tri-Rail on that route, and while AAF's run will be faster, will it be woth the extra cost? I would not be surprised if AAF offers a commuter pass for West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale to Miami customers (which would work well). Still, I'm glad things are coming along and there's been talk of even expanding to Tampa (heck, I hope both Jacksonville and Orlando see Brightline service).

Remember, if you build it, they will come.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Here are some photos I took of the progress made during the last month or so.

May 28/29 signal gantry installation - West Palm Beach

July 3rd - West Palm Beach station

July 7th - Forest Hill Signals 

Just south of the Forest Hill Blvd. crossing in West Palm Beach.

July 7th - West Palm Beach (C-51) Canal Crossing

This canal forms the border between West Palm Beach and Lake Worth city limits.

July 7th - Pine Street Crossing Lantana

It appears this crossing had significant work done to the existing mainline. The rails now appear to bank over the crossing (no doubt to allow for higher speeds). I also believe the existing mainline was realigned to reduce what was a 2.8 degree curve to 1.3 degrees (based off the last track map I saw.

Also, just for fun, here is a picture of my plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt parked across from a FEC local train waiting for permission to proceed through the work zone in West Palm Beach. All rail(construction?)fanning today was CO2 emissions free.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> All rail(construction?)fanning today was CO2 emissions free.


Or at least the emission took place somewhere else to generate the electricity used to charge up the plugin


----------



## chrsjrcj

jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> All rail(construction?)fanning today was CO2 emissions free 3x more energy efficient than my last vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> Or at least the emission took place somewhere else to generate the electricity used to charge up the plugin
Click to expand...

:hi:


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> Here are some photos I took of the progress made during the last month or so.
> 
> May 28/29 signal gantry installation - West Palm Beach
> 
> July 3rd - West Palm Beach station
> 
> July 7th - Forest Hill Signals
> 
> Just south of the Forest Hill Blvd. crossing in West Palm Beach.
> 
> July 7th - West Palm Beach (C-51) Canal Crossing
> 
> This canal forms the border between West Palm Beach and Lake Worth city limits.
> 
> July 7th - Pine Street Crossing Lantana
> 
> It appears this crossing had significant work done to the existing mainline. The rails now appear to bank over the crossing (no doubt to allow for higher speeds). I also believe the existing mainline was realigned to reduce what was a 2.8 degree curve to 1.3 degrees (based off the last track map I saw.
> 
> Also, just for fun, here is a picture of my plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt parked across from a FEC local train waiting for permission to proceed through the work zone in West Palm Beach. All rail(construction?)fanning today was CO2 emissions free.


Nice shots - I love how the Palm Beach views go from clouds in the background to bright sun and fluffy clouds - not nearly as hazy as Chicago at the moment.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Here is an update on the construction of the trains.

http://gobrightline.com/progress/brightline-trains-construction-update/


----------



## jphjaxfl

Caesar La Rock said:


> Here is an update on the construction of the trains.
> 
> http://gobrightline.com/progress/brightline-trains-construction-update/


Very Exciting! Thanks for posting. Looking forward to riding Brightline.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Tri-Rail has posted a few photos of MiamiCentral construction on their Facebook page- https://www.facebook.com/trirail/posts/1735730706686608


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Anyone who plans on traveling on this from Orlando to Miami, I'll see you there on that day. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2016/07/all-aboard-florida-on-track-for-construction-to.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2016-07-19&u=le1O48c4zijx0ETR5Sf%2Fng0d04608e&t=1468958156&j=74987882

First new tracks in Central Florida in 100 years. Does double tracking Sunrail count as new tracks or am I being glib about that?


----------



## jis

Well, there is plenty of double tracking of FEC going on too. However, laying new track on a completely new virgin right of way is certainly very different from merely double tracking along a pre-existing right of way.


----------



## chrsjrcj

https://www.facebook.com/GoBrightline/posts/1575623849410145


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Well, there is plenty of double tracking of FEC going on too. However, laying new track on a completely new virgin right of way is certainly very different from merely double tracking along a pre-existing right of way.


Is the new ROW going to start with double tracking?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is plenty of double tracking of FEC going on too. However, laying new track on a completely new virgin right of way is certainly very different from merely double tracking along a pre-existing right of way.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the new ROW going to start with double tracking?
Click to expand...

As I understand it some of it will be double track but not all of it. It is unnecessary to have double track all the way to run upto half hourly service, and initially it will only be hourly service.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is plenty of double tracking of FEC going on too. However, laying new track on a completely new virgin right of way is certainly very different from merely double tracking along a pre-existing right of way.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the new ROW going to start with double tracking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I understand it some of it will be double track but not all of it. It is unnecessary to have double track all the way to run upto half hourly service, and initially it will only be hourly service.
Click to expand...

It's not just the AAF service but also freight.

I'm guessing that the capacity has been similated with software and this gives them a pretty good idea of how much double track is needed - and where - to be able to absorb unforseen late running or other disruptions.

Also, adding a second track later may be costlier than doing stuff right from the start. For example because this may involve suspending service at certain points during the construction cycle and this would be very disruptive if you are trying to ramp up patronage. I am assuming that a certain level of capacity future proofing is already included in the initial operating segment to avoid having to do this.


----------



## jis

There will be no freight on the Cocoa to Orlando section. AAF has said so in their filing with STB to gain exemption from STB oversight.


----------



## jis

IRJ needs to get a better copy editor who would catch simple mistakes like calling All Aboard Florida All Aboard America in part of the article. other than that it is a very nice article:

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/all-aboard-florida-a-new-approach-for-us-passenger-rail.html


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> https://www.facebook.com/GoBrightline/posts/1575623849410145


Those are nice looking locomotives - the trainsets are going to be very smart looking!


----------



## jis

Progress o construction of Miami Central. You can now clearly see where the tracks will go and the building superstructure is just starting to come in place. The basic framework is scheduled to be completed by September.

http://www.thenextmiami.com/325-construction-workers-site-every-day-miamicentral/


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> ... a better copy editor would catch simple mistakes like calling All Aboard Florida All Aboard America in part of the article


The bean counter consultants wanted to chop all the copy editor jobs at the magazine company where I worked. They explained, "Now you have SpellCheck to handle that work".

Well, jis, "America" was spelled correctly in "All Aboard America". So what's your point? LOL.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Woody,

I am a copy editor (and very lucky to work for a place whose authors appreciate someone catching their errors and making their writing better). I find it very difficult to read magazines or newspapers now, because I just want to scream at the errors.

On a more cheerful note, I love looking at the brightline photos and am so excited about this new train that I will forgive them for not spelling their name with an initial cap!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Woody,
> 
> ... very difficult to read magazines or newspapers now, because I just want to scream at the errors.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Online text is even worse.
> 
> Not to mention that putting text into narrow, readable columns was so cumbersome for early word-processing software that it's not done anymore -- see, Amtrak United, for example. Now sentences must march for five or six inches across a page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love looking at the brightline photos ... I will forgive them for not spelling their name with an initial cap!
Click to expand...

Better than BRIGHTLINE in all caps!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edit: Sorry, I don't have the skills to Quote and insert comments.


----------



## jis

"brightline" is a trade mark. Normal capitalization rules often do not apply for those. Remember at&t?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Woody,

I can post quotes from some computers but not others, so it's not you. The tech experts on here will know what the difference is.

jis,

I forgot about it being a trademark. I actually put that sentence about brightline in just to get back on the subject, so I wouldn't drag us all off to another topic  .


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis,
> 
> I forgot about it being a trademark. I actually put that sentence about brightline in just to get back on the subject, so I wouldn't drag us all off to another topic  .


Yeah. The company that owns the trademark is All Aboard Florida, which is a subsidiary of FEC Industries (not FEC Railway). Both FECI and FECR are owned by the Fortress Group.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

First trainset will arrive in the Fall.

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/08/29/all-aboards-first-brightline-train-set-to-arrive-in-wpb-this-fall/


----------



## jphjaxfl

Caesar La Rock said:


> First trainset will arrive in the Fall.
> 
> http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/08/29/all-aboards-first-brightline-train-set-to-arrive-in-wpb-this-fall/


Brightline will have their new train before Amtrak takes delivery of the Viewliner II Dining Cars and Sleepers


----------



## Gulfwind2

Expect the speedy delivery of these trains to boost the likelihood that the Siemens plant in Sacramento will see future business building coaches similar to what Brightline is going to use in the future.


----------



## Andrew

Gulfwind2 said:


> Expect the speedy delivery of these trains to boost the likelihood that the Siemens plant in Sacramento will see future business building coaches similar to what Brightline is going to use in the future.


So maybe that makes it more likely for Amtrak to eventually go with Siemens for both their Amfleet 1 and Amfleet 2 replacements?


----------



## jis

When Amtrak issues those RFPs it is very likely that Siemens would bid. As for who gets picked, that is a different matter.


----------



## Andrew

jis said:


> When Amtrak issues those RFPs it is very likely that Siemens would bid. As for who gets picked, that is a different matter.


I wonder when Amtrak will issue those RFP's, and if they would go for one massive Amfleet replacement order (Amfleet 1's and 2's) or first the 2's, and then in a separate RFP/Contract, the older Amfleet 1's?

If it is a separate RFP, then maybe Amtrak could have CAF build the new Amfleet 2's, and make them look like the new baggage cars?

I bet that companies that will bid on the new Amfleet's include Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Kawasaki, and Siemens.


----------



## jis

Oh brother! My fault. Shouldn't have mentioned anything about Amtrak. This is afterall an FEC thread.

Mods: Please feel free to remove the Amtrak stuff from this thread.

Meanwhile.... Here is a neat additional piece of info from the Brightline folks:

http://gobrightline.com/trains/


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Oh brother! My fault. Shouldn't have mentioned anything about Amtrak. This is afterall an FEC thread.
> 
> Mods: Please feel free to remove the Amtrak stuff from this thread.
> 
> Meanwhile.... Here is a neat additional piece of info from the Brightline folks:
> 
> http://gobrightline.com/trains/


It happens to the best of us.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

So they are going for the Braniff thing of each trainset a different color or is that just artistic license?


----------



## jis

Looks like all the power heads will be the same livery. The cars of each consist will initially be a consist unique color. Since they are integrated sets, they will probably remain that way except on rare occasions when a substitution may be come necessary I suppose. But considering that Amtrak manages to keep the Acela sets as they were delivered, it is likely that so will AFF with the Brightline sets.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

We'll get people saying "I was on the blue train today" (wonder if they'll be consistent with each color being at the same time?) in the future.


----------



## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> wonder if they'll be consistent with each color being at the same time?


Probably not. That would be too constraining to get best equipment utilization I would think.


----------



## cirdan

I guess with maintenance being mileage based, and with the same cars remaining together, that an entire set would come up for maintenance at the same time and spares thinking would thus be in terms of holding a spare set rather than spare cars. The locomotives would of course have a different maintenance rythym.

This is more or less what happens in the Uk to the HSTs, with the same cars remaining together over long periods but the power heads being switched out more frequently.

This is why you are far more likely to see a power head in a non matching color scheme than a car in the middle of a consist having the same.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

And the first Brightline locomotive completes testing at Siemens.

http://gobrightline.com/brightlines-first-locomotive-completes-initial-testing-siemens-rail-manufacturing-hub/


----------



## Caesar La Rock

And here is a video.


----------



## jis

So one thing that we learn from the video is that the consists will most likely be semi-permanently coupled together using non standard draw bar connectors, like the Acela consists. Look at the coupler at the rear end of the locomotive, or rather lack thereof.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

That looks to be the case, semi-permanently coupled trains for this service.


----------



## acelafan

Title didn't show up first time around.

"All Aboard Florida’s plan for passenger train service from Miami to Orlando in jeopardy"

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article100979637.html


----------



## jis

Not a major issue. This has been going on for a while. Worth watching but I am told not a huge concern yet.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Wasn't this discussed earlier? From the article I gather that there was an Environmental Impact Analysis/Statement prepared and not acted upon by the state. If I recall, the gist of discussion here was that because it was not acted upon it became moot, i.e. not acting within a certain time-frame meant that the state had bungled and lost their ability to stop the project.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

A few days old, but this is cool nonetheless.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-brightline-topping-out-20160916-story.html


----------



## chrsjrcj

So now they have travel times between the 3 S. Florida stations as 26 minutes each (Miami-Ft Lauderdale and Ft Lauderdale-West Palm Beach). They estimated 30 before.

Even at a premium price, this will blow driving between the 3 cities out of the water.


----------



## Palmetto

But the key will be to have good on-going transit options once you arrive at the station. There's always Uber, I suppose.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> But the key will be to have good on-going transit options once you arrive at the station. There's always Uber, I suppose.


I have heard that Brightline plans to make it possible to book an Uber or something like that, as part of buying a Brightline ticket. At the Orlando en they might have a standing deal with Mears.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Any chance of SunRail connecting with Brightline at Orlando in the future? Or is that not in the plans for one or the other?


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Any chance of SunRail connecting with Brightline at Orlando in the future? Or is that not in the plans for one or the other?


At Orlando Airport. It is in the plans. The station is being built with space allocated for both as we speak.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, jis--that is excellent news!


----------



## jis

More from Fort Lauderdale....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-brightline-topping-out-20160916-story.html


----------



## jis

A nice article with a very useful photo showing the five elevated track layout of Miami Central station taking shape, in an aerial photo ...

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2016/09/27/brightline-passenger-rail-service-65-built/

The three track on the right are for exclusive AAF use and the two track structure on the left is for Tri-Rail. If by chance Amtrak ever makes it to this station it would most likely be on the two tracks on the left.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> A nice article with a very useful photo showing the five elevated track layout of Miami Central station taking shape, in an aerial photo ...
> 
> http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2016/09/27/brightline-passenger-rail-service-65-built/
> 
> The three track on the right are for exclusive AAF use and the two track structure on the left is for Tri-Rail. If by chance Amtrak ever makes it to this station it would most likely be on the two tracks on the left.


Are the platforms long enough to handle Amtrak trains?

Wasn't this the issue at Hialeah?


----------



## cirdan

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> A nice article with a very useful photo showing the five elevated track layout of Miami Central station taking shape, in an aerial photo ...
> 
> http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2016/09/27/brightline-passenger-rail-service-65-built/
> 
> The three track on the right are for exclusive AAF use and the two track structure on the left is for Tri-Rail. If by chance Amtrak ever makes it to this station it would most likely be on the two tracks on the left.
> 
> 
> 
> Are the platforms long enough to handle Amtrak trains?
> 
> Wasn't this the issue at Hialeah?
Click to expand...

 sorry, too much shorthand.

What i meant of course was the issue that prevented Amtrak moving from Hialeah to Miami Airport.


----------



## jis

As planned the platforms are long enough to accommodate Tri-Rail trains for the Tri-Rail tracks. There are no plans for Amtrak to ever get anywhere near this station at the present time. Considering that even when there is a plan for Amtrak to get to a station it does not quite make it there, it would seem highly unlikely that Amtrak will ever roll into this station.

However, this station and MIC at Miami Airport are connected by Metro so it should not be as big a deal, provided Amtrak makes it to MIC. Of course there will always be the alternative to change to Tri-Rail at Hollywood or some such and take it to Miami Central too.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> As planned the platforms are long enough to accommodate Tri-Rail trains for the Tri-Rail tracks. There are no plans for Amtrak to ever get anywhere near this station at the present time. Considering that even when there is a plan for Amtrak to get to a station it does not quite make it there, it would seem highly unlikely that Amtrak will ever roll into this station.
> 
> However, this station and MIC at Miami Airport are connected by Metro so it should not be as big a deal, provided Amtrak makes it to MIC. Of course there will always be the alternative to change to Tri-Rail at Hollywood or some such and take it to Miami Central too.


Granted, but it was a hypothetical question and it would be interesting to see if anybody had run at least the hypothetical scenario.


----------



## neroden

The phrase "long enough to handle Amtrak trains" is vague. The Pere Marquette is short; the Auto Train is long.

The Silver Star and Silver Meteor are on the very long side, and as demand increases they are only going to get longer. It is not likely that Miami Central (downtown) will ever have platforms long enough for them. The station is elevated and has a track sloping down to ground level on the north end. I don't think the flat section of the elevated station is long enough to handle the Star or Meteor, so it would require an elevated extension to the south.

If Florida suddenly decided to fund some sort of local Amtrak corridor train to Tampa (or Redland), that would fit.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance of SunRail connecting with Brightline at Orlando in the future? Or is that not in the plans for one or the other?
> 
> 
> 
> At Orlando Airport. It is in the plans. The station is being built with space allocated for both as we speak.
Click to expand...

Is there any more recent news on this?

Will it just be a connecting shuttle, meaning people need to change trains twice. or will it actually run thru to Sunrail destinations beyond Orlando?


----------



## jis

Phase III of SunRail has not been specified in that great a detail yet I think. We don't even know the details of the operating plan of Phase IIa to Poinciana yet either.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Phase III still has no funding but - with a trial Saturday service about to begin (October to January) and the new station and phase II construction progressing nicely - I think we will hear more rumbling to put it on the front burner. When announcing the trial service Mayor Dyer said that Sunrail would have to go to daily service to compliment the airport (and therefore Brightline) service. It really would be the missing piece that would make Sunrail a much more useful public transportation choice.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Here are some photos I've taken during the last week.

September 29, 2016 - West Palm Beach (C-51) Canal Crossing

Nothing too exciting here since my last visit. Work slowly continues on the canal crossing.

September 30, 2016 - West Palm Beach Station 

These were taken the day of the topping out ceremony (hence the flag). Work coming along quite nicely. I'll eventually get some pictures of the eastside of the station, which has glass windows installed.

October 3, 2016 - MiamiCentral Station

Wow. Work has really come along since I was last here a few months ago. Very encouraging to see. This station will be YUUGE :giggle:


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Interesting seeing this.

http://www.railresource.com/content/?p=35208


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> Here are some photos I've taken during the last week.
> 
> September 29, 2016 - West Palm Beach (C-51) Canal Crossing
> 
> Nothing too exciting here since my last visit. Work slowly continues on the canal crossing.
> 
> September 30, 2016 - West Palm Beach Station
> 
> These were taken the day of the topping out ceremony (hence the flag). Work coming along quite nicely. I'll eventually get some pictures of the eastside of the station, which has glass windows installed.
> 
> October 3, 2016 - MiamiCentral Station
> 
> Wow. Work has really come along since I was last here a few months ago. Very encouraging to see. This station will be YUUGE :giggle:


Nice pictures, the Miami Central Station is impressive!


----------



## Palmetto

Caesar La Rock said:


> Interesting seeing this.
> 
> http://www.railresource.com/content/?p=35208


_Prior to joining Brightline, Goddard worked at Trust Hospitality as the chief operating officer in charge of the business portfolio of more than 35 properties around the world and has experience with opening new hotels, many of which have been launched in South Florida. He was president and managing director of Ocean Blue Hospitality, a consultancy firm specializing in hotel openings and sales, marketing and revenue management for independent hotels. Goddard also held management positions with Rosewood Hotels, Loews Hotels, Hilton Hotels, Jurys Hotels and other independent hotels and restaurants in Europe._

I'm curious to know how this background qualifies the man as Vice-President of Operations.


----------



## jis

Brightline is a hospitality service primarily. That is going to be its primary focus. This fellow will have a rail operations person who will report to him who will be in charge of making sure the trains run properly, that is the T&E side, which is an enabler but not the primary business in their view. A fundamentally different approach. This is my speculation that is line with the choice of COO.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Palmetto said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting seeing this.
> 
> http://www.railresource.com/content/?p=35208
> 
> 
> 
> _Prior to joining Brightline, Goddard worked at Trust Hospitality as the chief operating officer in charge of the business portfolio of more than 35 properties around the world and has experience with opening new hotels, many of which have been launched in South Florida. He was president and managing director of Ocean Blue Hospitality, a consultancy firm specializing in hotel openings and sales, marketing and revenue management for independent hotels. Goddard also held management positions with Rosewood Hotels, Loews Hotels, Hilton Hotels, Jurys Hotels and other independent hotels and restaurants in Europe._
> I'm curious to know how this background qualifies the man as Vice-President of Operations.
Click to expand...

As jis mentioned, AAF (Brightline) is primarily a hospitality/service driven service unlike Amtrak and most other passenger rail services for the past 50 years. VP of Operations isn't just about making sure the AC and toilets work. It's also about the overall customer experience, which in my opinion has not been a priority for passenger rail services here.

AAF has always said they are not just providing basic public transportation to get from point A to B. I think their focus is on providing a premium modern service. It won't be like the Hoosier State train which is old tyme railroading in my opinion. It will be more like what you see in Europe and will bring a much needed boost to passenger rail in the USA.


----------



## Seaboard92

Also it will make Fortress Investment Group some major profits on land sales near the stations. Seeing correct me if I'm wrong they own the land. If enough people use the services the value goes up.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Brightline is a hospitality service primarily. That is going to be its primary focus. This fellow will have a rail operations person who will report to him who will be in charge of making sure the trains run properly, that is the T&E side, which is an enabler but not the primary business in their view. A fundamentally different approach. This is my speculation that is line with the choice of COO.


Isn't the primary source of income going to rent from real estate, especially at the Miami site. Therefore I would think they need somebody who understands real estate and can sell the opportunity to the most suitable and best paying tenants. I don't see what value a guy who understands hotel operations can bring in here.


----------



## jis

No. Not for AAF. True for FECI the owners of AAF. AAF's primary P&L is Brightline and its station buildings. Not the rest of the development.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Prepare for the arrival.


----------



## jis

Yep. Rusty Roberts (of AAF) informed us at the NARP meeting that the first set will be coming in late October/early November and Amtrak will transport it from California to Florida.

Thirdrail, have you heard anything about testing of the set to 125mph on the NEC? Or are they not going to do that for now and wait until,next year or the year after?


----------



## Carolina Special

How would the rumored sale of FECR impact the Brightline project? Seems like CSX and Norfolk Southern are not going to be enthusiastic supporters of passenger rail, if the Feds allowed either to win the bidding. They're interested in freight traffic.


----------



## CCC1007

Carolina Special said:


> How would the rumored sale of FECR impact the Brightline project? Seems like CSX and Norfolk Southern are not going to be enthusiastic supporters of passenger rail, if the Feds allowed either to win the bidding. They're interested in freight traffic.


Hasn't CSX been pulling out of south Florida?


----------



## jis

Carolina Special said:


> How would the rumored sale of FECR impact the Brightline project? Seems like CSX and Norfolk Southern are not going to be enthusiastic supporters of passenger rail, if the Feds allowed either to win the bidding. They're interested in freight traffic.


I have tried to explain before that FECR is already treated as a distinct arms length corporation by AAF, and they have long term contracts for supporting AAF in place. FECR and AAF are not subsidiaries of the same entity one level up. AAF is a subsidiary of FECI. FECR is a subsidiary of the Fortress Group as is FECI. Fortress has always wanted to focus on real estate and hospitality. It is quite unlikely that either CSX or NS will be allowed to acquire FECR anyway by the feds, and as mentioned CSX is actually in the process of getting out of South Florida anyway. Irrespective of all that the framework for operation is already in place, and AAF will actually provide a significant proportion of the revenues for FEC, and pay actual cost of operation, unlike Amtrak does to freight roads.

Someone that claims FECR is interested only in freight traffic clearly does not know much about FECR's business model today. They are struggling with under-performing freight revenues, which is incidentally a problem that most other freight railroads are struggling with today too.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thirdrail7 said:


> Prepare for the arrival.


At least we've all had ample time to prepare ourselves. 

Much thanks for this heads up.


----------



## Seaboard92

Any idea if they will move in a special movement or be tacked on the rear similar to private cars? That might be worth me getting up at two AM to see the Meteor head south.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Any idea if they will move in a special movement or be tacked on the rear similar to private cars? That might be worth me getting up at two AM to see the Meteor head south.


Thirdrail might know the answer to that one. Outside of Amtrak, Siemens and AAF it is unlikely that anyone knows.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> Any idea if they will move in a special movement or be tacked on the rear similar to private cars? That might be worth me getting up at two AM to see the Meteor head south.


Unless something changes, it will be a special move that travels on its own.


----------



## Seaboard92

Thirdrail7 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea if they will move in a special movement or be tacked on the rear similar to private cars? That might be worth me getting up at two AM to see the Meteor head south.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something changes, it will be a special move that travels on its own.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'll keep my eyes open for it.


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## Brian_tampa

From a Broward County meeting agenda from today, I learned that AAF is wanting to construct an additional station at the Ft Lauderdale airport. It will be located near where the runway bridge is over the FECR tracks. Not sure if the station and platform will be constructed immediately or will come later as part of a possible Wave trolley expansion or airport project. Per the meeting agenda attachments, the high level platform will be 860 ft long with grade level pedestrian crossing of the outside platform track (the westernmost track, which will be new or relocated). I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this neat little addition to the AAF system!

http://205.166.161.204/agenda_publish.cfm?id=&mt=ALL&get_month=11&get_year=2016&dsp=agm&seq=23321&rev=0&ag=519&ln=91091&nseq=&nrev=&pseq=&prev=#ReturnTo91091

Also, tomorrow is when the US DOT is supposed to approve AAF'S new PAB plan. Two separate bonds one for $600M and another for $1.15B. This is being done to increase the appeal to bond buyers primarily but also it conveniently causes the lawsuits brought by treasure coast counties against AAF/USDOT/FDFC to go away!


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## Seaboard92

That Fort Lauderdale airport has a decent amount of international departures and routes. So adding a stop makes loads of sense. I'm surprised it wasn't on the original draft. I would even try to offer codeshares with the airlines to destinations similar to how DBAG does between Frankfurt and Düsseldorf.


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## Brian_tampa

An additional thought on the station location. It may just be a platform with minimal facilities. Also, it's impact on travel time will be minimized as the curve it's located on is one of the slowest sections of the AAF route. I wonder if AAF did some sort of traffic study before deciding to add this stop?


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## Mystic River Dragon

I'm assuming most people flying in will be going on a cruise, so they wouldn't need brightline at the airport. If they are coming to Fort Lauderdale on brightline, I did the google maps to Port Everglades (the cruise port) from the already being built brightline station and from the airport. The driving time from the original station is about 20 minutes, and from the airport is about 30, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be of stopping there--it would be just slightly faster to get a cab to/from the cruise port from the original brightline station.

Having been to Fort Lauderdale several times to visit a friend, this surprised me. Perhaps because the airport seems to take over a great chunk of the town, it looks like it is close to everything (we had to drive around it to get somewhere, and it seemed to take forever), and the brightline station to the north seems like it would be much further away.

I have just succeeded in confusing myself completely :unsure: , so someone please help me out and explain the benefits of an airport station--thanks  .

I would have posted this earlier, but I tend to go off on tangents, and I had to take a virtual detour to look at the Port Everglades webcam and see what was going on at the cruise port!  (Not much today--just a couple of small boats--the liners must all be out on their travels  .)


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## jis

Looks like they may be keeping the option open to build something in the future rather than building something immediately. They want to place the track at the right place for it, so that they don't have to fiddle around with the tracks when the time comes to construct. I will know more about it on Friday from the AAF guy who usually attends the FCRP Meetings. One is scheduled for this Friday.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Ah, I see--thanks, jis.


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## cirdan

I just checked this location out on Google Maps and was surprised by the very elongated and elegant bow the rail line makes to avoid the airport. I guess the tracks must have been moved to make room for the airport.

I wonder if any thoughts were given to creating a passenger station at the time. It definitely looks like an easy win, with the tracks being so close to the terminal buildings.


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## Palmetto

I believe that area was re-worked to make room for an extended runway at FLL.


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## Caesar La Rock

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/11/29/all-aboard-federal-officials-move-to-end-lawsuit-over-tax-exempt-rail-bonds/


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## jis

Basically they just shifted $600 million of internal funding from Phase I to Phase II back filling it with bond for Phase I.

I suspect they will use internal funding for construction in Martin and Indian River County and issue additional bonds through a separate process to cover construction or parts thereof in Brevard and Orange counties. Martin and Indian River County will not have a standing to challenge things that do not touch the counties possibly.

Just my speculation based on nothing.


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## chrsjrcj

Local media did an exclusive on the station in WPB. Not a bad piece: http://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/brightline-high-speed-rail-from-wpb-to-miami-70-percent-complete

Also:






That is a screenshot from this video:



From my understanding, the date for the arrival of the first trainset is still up in the air (I was optimistic for before Christmas). Right now, the repair facility in West Palm Beach is still not 100% complete. I suppose once that is done, we will get the first trainset, then one set every month after that. Initial testing will be between West Palm Beach and Boca Raton.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Basically they just shifted $600 million of internal funding from Phase I to Phase II back filling it with bond for Phase I.
> 
> I suspect they will use internal funding for construction in Martin and Indian River County and issue additional bonds through a separate process to cover construction or parts thereof in Brevard and Orange counties. Martin and Indian River County will not have a standing to challenge things that do not touch the counties possibly.
> 
> Just my speculation based on nothing.


I hope you are right.

It would be sad if the scaremongering by opponents were to reduce confidence in the market and lead to the bonds not being fully sold.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

chrsjrcj said:


> Local media did an exclusive on the station in WPB. Not a bad piece: http://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/brightline-high-speed-rail-from-wpb-to-miami-70-percent-complete
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a screenshot from this video:


 Lookin' good! I can't wait to see them in action!


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## VentureForth

Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?

Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.

I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?
> 
> Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.
> 
> I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?


This has been explained a few times, but apparently you missed the somewhat extensive discussion.

Orlando is very spread out and there really is no single place in Orlando, other than the airport where all modes come together, including SunRail in the near future and the future LRT terminal. That is why it terminates at the Airport. Also going anywhere else will involve acquisition of much more expensive land, which the AAF folks are not interested in. So it is convenient for them and not terribly inconvenient for the passengers since connectivity to rental cars (one of the most common modes of transport for visitors to the Orlando area), Disneyland connection (the second most common transport for visitors, if not the first), and Cruise line bus connections, are all right at the airport. In the near future SunRail will provide connectivity to Kissimmee and downtown. Until then there is Lynx Bus connection again from the airport. it meets the needs of the vast majority of people.


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## CCC1007

Not to mention that not all airlines serve both Orlando and Miami, such as allegiant air which has a hub at Orlando.


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## A Voice

It is being reported on Train Orders that the first Brightline trainset will depart the factory within the next couple days, shipped by Union Pacific and CSX via New Orleans to Jacksonville (oh, the irony...).

I thought Amtrak was handling the move to Florida? Is this still a special Amtrak move, but taking this route?


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still wondering why connecting to the airport... If they are going to fly into Orlando to take the train, why not just fly into Miami?
> 
> Riding the train into Orlando will be a pain as Mears OWNS transport in and out of the airport. Can't even Uber. Lynx is a joke and Sunrail won't connect.
> 
> I am excited, though, and can't wait to see it happen. Any chance they'll ever get the Ft. Lauderdale - Cocoa Beach/Daytona a faster rated track?
> 
> 
> 
> This has been explained a few times, but apparently you missed the somewhat extensive discussion.
> 
> Orlando is very spread out and there really is no single place in Orlando, other than the airport where all modes come together, including SunRail in the near future and the future LRT terminal. That is why it terminates at the Airport. Also going anywhere else will involve acquisition of much more expensive land, which the AAF folks are not interested in. So it is convenient for them and not terribly inconvenient for the passengers since connectivity to rental cars (one of the most common modes of transport for visitors to the Orlando area), Disneyland connection (the second most common transport for visitors, if not the first), and Cruise line bus connections, are all right at the airport. In the near future SunRail will provide connectivity to Kissimmee and downtown. Until then there is Lynx Bus connection again from the airport. it meets the needs of the vast majority of people.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember all the conversations that were had months and years ago. Hence, why I started with the words, "I still".

The three or four Lynx busses that service MCO are horribly inefficient.

Airport property is amongst the most expensive to lease in any metro area.

Sunrail comes close, but not quite to the airport. It would make more sense to have a stop at the airport, then a service facility/junction at Sand Lake road.

The reference to connecting to Kissimmee is irrelevant as you have to get to the Sunrail station anyway. Besides, it's not really about going to Kissimmee as much as Kissimmeians getting out.

As for cruise lines, more cruises, other than Disney Cruise Lines offer better value, scheduling and flight connections out of Ft Lauderdale and Miami than Orlando to Port Canaveral.

Finally, for the handful of airlines that serve Orlando or Miami but not the other, would it still be cheaper than just picking another airline to get to the airport you want to get to?

Finally, I would sincerely like to add more intelligent input to this conversation, but my work has blocked any webpage developed on Word Press, which is like 80% of websites. Ugh.


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## jis

SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline. It will then have hourly service both to Kissimmee and at least through Orange County including Orlando Amtrak. That is why I said near future.

No one has to acquire any land at the Airport since the Orlando Aviation Authority already owns the land and it is they that are building and will run the OIA station. AAF will simply lease space there. The OIA station is an integral part of the new South Terminal Complex being constructed by the Orlando Aviation Authority.

On this whole business of cruise terminals and airline flights ... I don't think AAF really cares too much about cruise line passengers or intra-Florida aviation passengers (except when they choose to travel by road between Miami or Orlando and points in between at least initially. Those are mostly obsessions of armchair planners far removed from AAF or Florida as far as I can tell. Primarily, it is trying to skim off just 2% to 5% of the road traffic between Miami and Orlando and points in between. If they can pull 2% off they become profitable, is their claim. It is reducing load on roads that brings the Floridians on board. They don't really care what the cruise and air passengers do, as long as they stay off the roads  In this context they potentially open up some possible usage for passengers arriving at one of the airports and planning to use a cruise terminal closer to one of the Brightline station than to the airport of arrival. But as I said, that is a secondary concern. Of course they would be happy to pick up any refugees from intra-Florida aviation too. But at least initially that is not their focus. or at least that is the distinct impression one gets from their business plan.

As for providing any meaningful input on determining the Orlando location of the Brightline station, that time is well past. At this point there is not much to add to the conversation of the location of the AAF/Brightline station in Orlando. it is a settled fact and contracts are in place. It is under construction, clearly visible even from the North Terminal Complex, as is the entire ROW on airport property connecting from the station to the airport border where AAF construction will take over for constructing the SR528 component between airport boundary and Cocoa FEC, in the next 12 to 18 months.


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## neroden

jis said:


> SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.


Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
(P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)


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## cirdan

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.
> 
> 
> 
> Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
> (P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)
Click to expand...

I guess Brightline are OK with Tri-Rail sharing their tracks at the Miami end as they are not really competitors and Tr-rail is siphoning additional riders into Miami station and boosting its real estate value.

But would Brightline be fine with Amtrak running on their tracks and poaching their riders? Especially seeing Amtrak probably won't serve Brightline's Miami station (platforms probably not long enough) and will probably continue running to Hialeah or the airport or wherever and thus not add any value to Brightline's prime location.


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## A Voice

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.
> 
> 
> 
> Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
> (P.S. It would be wise if Amtrak did some new market analyses for the Silver Service after Brightline opens to Orlando. Brightline will presumably take nearly all local Miami-Orlando traffic. With Tri-Rail connecting Miami to Amtrak stations as far north as West Palm Beach, and Sunrail connecting Orlando to stations from DeLand (eventually) to Kissimee, the intrastate ridership on the Meteor service is going to collapse. It might make sense to reroute the Silver Meteor entirely onto the FEC (presuming negotiations could be completed), which should beef up Florida-to-the-north ridership if it's done right. Silver Star service to Tampa will probably be unimpacted or helped by Brightline & the commuter rail, and could probably handle most of the passengers who currently take the Meteor and aren't served by Brightline or either commuter rail.)
Click to expand...

Placing the _Silver Meteor_ - a long distance train - onto the FEC route would miss the important and busy destination of Orlando (Walt Disney World). Further, people tend to not like changing trains; Passengers from origin points north of Deland aren't going to disembark Amtrak just to get on Brightline to south Florida (or to Disney), and regardless the trains take different routes (and stations) to Miami. More trains to more places on increased frequencies tend to attract more passengers overall; We've seen this before. I'm not certain effects on the _Meteor_ will be what you think.


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## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> SunRail Phase III extends SunRail to the Airport Station which it will share with Brightline.
> 
> 
> 
> Any news on funding for this? We could be sitting for years with broken connectivity. Such a short extension...
Click to expand...

Sunrail Phase III has passed the first funding hurdle. It is now on the list of projects eligible for FTA funding. Ahead of it though is Sunrail Phase IIb which is also awaiting funding. OTOH, Sunrail Phase III is entirely within Orange County, and indeed entirely within Orlando City. Moreover a significant part of its total funding need can be met from the Orlando Airport ticket fees, i.e. for everything that is within airport boundary, including the station which the airport authority owns and will operate, leasing space to both Brightline and Sunrail. So the only external funding needed is for upgrading the existing track connection from Sunrail to the airport boundary. There can be various means of funding from potentially copious sources within Orlando City involving resort surtax and such, this which may avoid the need for any federal funding, should push come to shove. OTOH, the same sources will also need to be tapped for operating subsidies. So we'll see how it pans out.

The bottom line though is that at present there is no targeted funding outside of the airport. I expect it will be a few years before that becomes an issue, since even Brightline is unlikely to get to OIA before late 2019.


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## jis

According to usually reliable sources on the internet, the first Brightline train set is departing Siemens plant in Sacramento today (8 Dec 2016) headed for Florida by way of Colton, Sunset Route to New Orleans, CSX from New Orleans to Jacksonville, and then down the coast on FEC to West Palm beach. I wish I could find out when it will pass by here in Melbourne FL.


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## jis

Brightline consist departing for Florida from the Siemens plant.


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## jphjaxfl

jis said:


> Brightline consist departing for Florida from the Siemens plant.


Great Video! Thanks for posting.


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## jis

From information heard from various defect detectors en route the max speed at which it is operating is 69mph.

Around 4:30am EST of 12/9/16 it passed Mojave CA en route to Colton where it joins the Sunset route to New Orleans.


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## MattW

Interesting. I know 49, 59 and 79 are special as far as signal speeds on the railroads, but why is 69 special vs 70? Some other random regulation I'm unaware of?


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## jis

The max allowed is probably 70. So far reported speed by various equipment detectors has been 69. that may be just by chance.


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## jis

Just West of Indio at 10:50 EST on 12/9


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## Anderson

(1) I know all the stuff about Orlando, but I was rather surprised to see a connection to Disney_land_. Then again, given how many visitors think they parked in the "Mickey" parking lot at Magic Kingdom (hint: Said parking lot is in Anaheim) maybe such a connection would be useful?;-)

(2) Serving the Fort Lauderdale airport makes a _lot_ of sense. There are plenty of cases of airlines not serving both airports (or only having thin service at one or the other; for example, as of this moment Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, Air France, and Lufthansa don't serve Fort Lauderdale), and FLL tends to be more expensive than MCO (but also have better service). An example is that JetBlue will be adding Mint service to FLL but not MCO, and Virgin America presently has substantially more flights to FLL than MCO. Finally, serving FLL offers passengers a stronger alternative to using MIA to get to Miami (MIA being one of the most expensive airports to fly into, not to mention in my recollection having often-swamped Customs desks) as well as access to West Palm Beach (PBI being a far smaller airport than the others). So this puts a lot of options on the table.


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## chrsjrcj

jis said:


> According to usually reliable sources on the internet, the first Brightline train set is departing Siemens plant in Sacramento today (8 Dec 2016) headed for Florida by way of Colton, Sunset Route to New Orleans, CSX from New Orleans to Jacksonville, and then down the coast on FEC to West Palm beach. I wish I could find out when it will pass by here in Melbourne FL.


FEC most likely will be under the cover of darkness. Brightline wants to unveil the equipment at their own time.


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## jis

Not to worry. We know people at the right places in ASF. Of course the information may come with a request that the information not be posted, and if so, the request will be honored, like such requests always are, at least by me.


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## jis

Brightline consist zipping through Arizona.


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## neroden

cirdan said:


> But would Brightline be fine with Amtrak running on their tracks and poaching their riders?


I don't think Amtrak would be poaching their riders; I think the ridership would be entirely separate. Heck, Amtrak could make every single station on the FEC discharge only southbound and receive only northbound. And skip most of them, for speed ("get off at WPB and change to Brightline for onward travel").
Brightline is going to take the intra-Florida traffic because Amtrak trains are coming from NY and therefore may be highly delayed, and Brightline trains won't be. However, this will only increase the number of people coming by Amtrak from *outside* Florida to Florida.

As for Disney World, you already have to get a taxi or an extremely slow bus. Getting a taxi from Cocoa isn't particularly worse than from downtown Orlando. I'd be worried more about connectivity to Orlando proper. The Silver Star already goes to Orlando already, though.


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## jis

Disney customers who book a Disney trip through Disney get picked up by Disney buses at OIA, and those are hardly slow. They get straight onto SR417 through the South Entrance to the airport and zip over to Disney avoiding all of the Orlando downtown and I-4 traffic.

Disney actually prefers capturing its customers as soon as they get off the plane, onto their own transport. The Disney experience begins at the airport. That is why they have resisted building public transport from airport to Disney properties. Same will be true with Brightline. Amtrak simply does not carry a sufficiently large number of people to Disney for Disney to worry about it too much. They would be and are OK with random Lynx buses running to Disney. But they would not be OK with a truly high capacity service that is not in their sole control, running service to Disney. Go figure.


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## jis

Some neat graphics from AAF brightline Branding...

http://www.evanallen.com/brightline/hunw134tqffmercr9onmac46n0wudd


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Disney actually prefers capturing its customers as soon as they get off the plane, onto their own transport. The Disney experience begins at the airport. That is why they have resisted building public transport from airport to Disney properties. Same will be true with Brightline. Amtrak simply does not carry a sufficiently large number of people to Disney for Disney to worry about it too much. They would be and are OK with random Lynx buses running to Disney. But they would not be OK with a truly high capacity service that is not in their sole control, running service to Disney. Go figure.


Interesting observation.

But surely Disney doesn't consider itself a transportation company. It's not as if you need to come to Disneyworld on a Disney bus to be able to enjoy it properly. I would assume the real reason they don't leave transportation to others is that they don't trust others to do it right. Poor experience in transportation might reflect poorly on the overall experience.

But if somebody would come in and offer a consistently high standard of service, maybe higher than Disney themselves could reasonably provide, would Disney still be opposed to that?


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## jis

So far they have been opposed to anyone else providing service to Disney. They do not want to lose their Parking Fees franchise for those that come in by cars and anyone coming in by public transport, they want them to arrive sufficiently far away where they can pick them up in their own transport, the fee for which is included in the integral Disney experience package charges. It is all about money. They do not want to hand over that money to someone else. It is a pretty significant profit center.

I suppose if someone compensates them for each parking fee lost they might be willing to play ball, sort of similar to how Beach Line Expressway Toll folks have negotiated a toll surcharge from AAF for each passenger using the Beach Line segment of Brightline. But unfortunately, in case of Disney daily parking charges that is a rater enormous amount, nit piddly two dollars or less as in case of the highway toll.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> So far they have been opposed to anyone else providing service to Disney. They do not want to lose their Parking Fees franchise for those that come in by cars and anyone coming in by public transport, they want them to arrive sufficiently far away where they can pick them up in their own transport, the fee for which is included in the integral Disney experience package charges. It is all about money. They do not want to hand over that money to someone else. It is a pretty significant profit center.
> 
> I suppose if someone compensates them for each parking fee lost they might be willing to play ball, sort of similar to how Beach Line Expressway Toll folks have negotiated a toll surcharge from AAF for each passenger using the Beach Line segment of Brightline. But unfortunately, in case of Disney daily parking charges that is a rater enormous amount, nit piddly two dollars or less as in case of the highway toll.


Ok, I understand. So basically the Disney bus does make a worthwhile profit for Disney.


----------



## A Voice

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disney actually prefers capturing its customers as soon as they get off the plane, onto their own transport. The Disney experience begins at the airport. That is why they have resisted building public transport from airport to Disney properties. Same will be true with Brightline. Amtrak simply does not carry a sufficiently large number of people to Disney for Disney to worry about it too much. They would be and are OK with random Lynx buses running to Disney. But they would not be OK with a truly high capacity service that is not in their sole control, running service to Disney. Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting observation.
> 
> But surely Disney doesn't consider itself a transportation company. It's not as if you need to come to Disneyworld on a Disney bus to be able to enjoy it properly. I would assume the real reason they don't leave transportation to others is that they don't trust others to do it right. Poor experience in transportation might reflect poorly on the overall experience.
> 
> But if somebody would come in and offer a consistently high standard of service, maybe higher than Disney themselves could reasonably provide, would Disney still be opposed to that?
Click to expand...

The buses which transport guests from the airport to the Walt Disney World Resorts, and also the Disney Cruise Line buses, are both actually operated by Mears transportation under contract.

The motor coaches utilized for the service, however, are branded for either the Disney Cruise Line or Disney's Magical Express.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far they have been opposed to anyone else providing service to Disney. They do not want to lose their Parking Fees franchise for those that come in by cars and anyone coming in by public transport, they want them to arrive sufficiently far away where they can pick them up in their own transport, the fee for which is included in the integral Disney experience package charges. It is all about money. They do not want to hand over that money to someone else. It is a pretty significant profit center.
> 
> I suppose if someone compensates them for each parking fee lost they might be willing to play ball, sort of similar to how Beach Line Expressway Toll folks have negotiated a toll surcharge from AAF for each passenger using the Beach Line segment of Brightline. But unfortunately, in case of Disney daily parking charges that is a rater enormous amount, nit piddly two dollars or less as in case of the highway toll.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I understand. So basically the Disney bus does make a worthwhile profit for Disney.
Click to expand...

I don't know if Disney bus makes a profit in and of itself. Disney's claim is that if you book a Dsiney package, they will take care of everything once you set foot off the plane. That is done via contract with Mears, and that service carries just Disney arrivals and departures by air passengers between Disney and OIA.

What really makes profit is the parking fees. Or at least so I have been given to understand. And as soon as you let in an external - extremely convenient and fast general public transport access which you cannot charge a compensatory fee equivalent to the lost parking fee, you lose your margins. unless of course this new service brings in so much more custom that it balances out. Apparently their studies and simulations so far suggest that would not be the case. hence no public transit access to Disney.

So m y speculation is that if Disney ran out of parking space on sight, they might set up a remote parking lot somewhere in St. Cloud or such, and run Disney branded shuttles (possibly run by Mears) to shuttle passengers from there to Disney, but will resist setting up an HSR station at Disney. Just my guess, having observed their behavior in Orlando area transportation planning. Evidently they are happy to treat Brightline like another airline bringing passengers to the airport. they will have a checkin desk at the South Terminal and it is entirely possible that Brightline will set up some joint arrangement with Disney for integrated packages, with Disney provided bus connection from OIA like for air passengers. But the bottom line will be that anyone who has not purchased such a package will not be transported by Disney buses nor will Disney allow any convenient general public transport to haul them over. Slow Lynx buses ar OK I suppose. Their preference for those guys is to buy the Disney package with parking and rent a car at OIA. 

At least this is how I understand their overall philosophy.

Surprisingly there are similarities between this and the Port Authority of NY and NJ which insists on charging a huge markup for anyone using the convenient rail connection to Newark and JFK, a charge which is effectively covering for lost parking revenues to some extent. Slow clunkylocal buses are OK and are not charged the huge markup.


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## Caesar La Rock

That reasoning with Disney, coupled with competition by Mears (who coincidentally got hired as a contractor for Lynx back in 2014) is why Lynx's proposed express route from OIA to Disney World has been put on hold for the time being. Lynx buses aren't really slow, they travel vast distances and on roads heavily prone to traffic, making the journey times longer as I've seen first hand.

I've been riding the system for 21 years, the morale of the system hasn't changed in 21 years. Its funding structure is still the same as Tri-County Transit's funding was back in 1992 and it doesn't have enough buses to pull off increased service for its 2,500 square mile service area. Only when that changes is when Lynx will be more adequate to handle ridership from both Sunrail and Brightline trains.


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## Seaboard92

Well the other thing about Disney is they brand themselves as an experience and they want to control as much of that as they can. So the shuttles they contract out to Meers makes sense but likely keep designated equipment on it that is of a very high standard. And of course there is big money blocking any sort of public transit to Disney as well. Being Meers as that probably brings them a lot of money.


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## cirdan

Yes, it makes sense. I didn't realize it was that complicated.

But just to imagine a hypothetical parallel universe. If there was a Brightline station right slap in front of Disney's main entrance, Disney could codeshare its customers onto Brightline trains coming from Miami and other Brightline stations. They could then charge whatever beefed up premium fare they wanted. If Brightline agreed not to sell tickets to the Disney station, everybody getting off there would be a Disney passenger and there wouldn't really be a competition situation, but the same trains would be used by passengers between non Disney destinations. Basically not having to switch from a train to a bus would make the overall experience more attractive.

That probably would never happen as I guess Disney doesn't really get trains and management see priorities elsewhere. But in a hypothetical parallel universe.


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## MARC Rider

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far they have been opposed to anyone else providing service to Disney. They do not want to lose their Parking Fees franchise for those that come in by cars and anyone coming in by public transport, they want them to arrive sufficiently far away where they can pick them up in their own transport, the fee for which is included in the integral Disney experience package charges. It is all about money. They do not want to hand over that money to someone else. It is a pretty significant profit center.
> 
> I suppose if someone compensates them for each parking fee lost they might be willing to play ball, sort of similar to how Beach Line Expressway Toll folks have negotiated a toll surcharge from AAF for each passenger using the Beach Line segment of Brightline. But unfortunately, in case of Disney daily parking charges that is a rater enormous amount, nit piddly two dollars or less as in case of the highway toll.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I understand. So basically the Disney bus does make a worthwhile profit for Disney.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know if Disney bus makes a profit in and of itself. Disney's claim is that if you book a Dsiney package, they will take care of everything once you set foot off the plane. That is done via contract with Mears, and that service carries just Disney arrivals and departures by air passengers between Disney and OIA.
> What really makes profit is the parking fees. Or at least so I have been given to understand. And as soon as you let in an external - extremely convenient and fast general public transport access which you cannot charge a compensatory fee equivalent to the lost parking fee, you lose your margins. unless of course this new service brings in so much more custom that it balances out. Apparently their studies and simulations so far suggest that would not be the case. hence no public transit access to Disney.
> 
> So m y speculation is that if Disney ran out of parking space on sight, they might set up a remote parking lot somewhere in St. Cloud or such, and run Disney branded shuttles (possibly run by Mears) to shuttle passengers from there to Disney, but will resist setting up an HSR station at Disney. Just my guess, having observed their behavior in Orlando area transportation planning. Evidently they are happy to treat Brightline like another airline bringing passengers to the airport. they will have a checkin desk at the South Terminal and it is entirely possible that Brightline will set up some joint arrangement with Disney for integrated packages, with Disney provided bus connection from OIA like for air passengers. But the bottom line will be that anyone who has not purchased such a package will not be transported by Disney buses nor will Disney allow any convenient general public transport to haul them over. Slow Lynx buses ar OK I suppose. Their preference for those guys is to buy the Disney package with parking and rent a car at OIA.
> 
> At least this is how I understand their overall philosophy.
> 
> Surprisingly there are similarities between this and the Port Authority of NY and NJ which insists on charging a huge markup for anyone using the convenient rail connection to Newark and JFK, a charge which is effectively covering for lost parking revenues to some extent. Slow clunkylocal buses are OK and are not charged the huge markup.
Click to expand...

When we did the Disneyworld trip, we stayed at a Disney hotel and the parking was free. And free bus/boat/monorail transportation to all points on the property. Except the last day when we were flying out in the afternoon and had to spend $20 to park.


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## jis

According to some reports the Brightline consist was delivered to New Orleans by UP ahead of schedule, yesterday (12th) instead of the scheduled early morning today (13th).


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## jis

Somewhat reliable source unofficially has it that it arrives into Bowden Yard in JAX sometime this afternoon.

It will be run as a special move from there to WPB following the normal nightly run of FEC train #121 tonight (12/13/16).


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## PRR 60

Those who stay on-site at a WDW hotel get free parking, not only in the hotel lot, but in any of the general parking lots at the theme parks. A hotel guest can use the internal transportation system (bus, monorail), or can drive from park to park as they "park hop." Your resort ID gets you parking access in all general lots.

As for transport to and from MCO, shared-ride van is limited to the Disney service (contracted to Mears), but other non-Disney-branded services are available from cabs to Mears flat-rate vans and limos. Some of those options can be reasonable depending on the number in the party. I would assume that when Brightline opens at MCO that the situation will be similar.

For many, if not most business purposes for visiting Orlando, the MCO airport station is probably more convenient than a downtown stop. For better or worse, most business meetings that take place in "Orlando" actually take place at International Drive, Sea World and WDW venues. Even the Orange County Convention Center is located on International Drive. I've probably had a dozen or more meetings to attend in Orlando, and only one was located sort of in center city. From that aspect, Brightline making MCO their Orlando terminal makes sense.


----------



## cirdan

PRR 60 said:


> For many, if not most business purposes for visiting Orlando, the MCO airport station is probably more convenient than a downtown stop. For better or worse, most business meetings that take place in "Orlando" actually take place at International Drive, Sea World and WDW venues. Even the Orange County Convention Center is located on International Drive. I've probably had a dozen or more meetings to attend in Orlando, and only one was located sort of in center city. From that aspect, Brightline making MCO their Orlando terminal makes sense.


Agreed. But then airport to International Drive is still a bit of a trek. Lynx is OK but not that frequent and you need a lot of time. Taxi is expensive and quickly relativizes the savings of catching a train in the first place.

In the longer term I think it would make sense to extend Sunrail beyond the airport and have a stop in the broader International Drive sort of area. .


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## jis

Maybe you missed the bit about Brightline doing combined ticketing including Uber/Lyft for the last mile at both ends.

There really is very little business case for spending enormous amounts of money to acquire the real estate to put the station anywhere else as far as AAF is concerned.

If I am going for a business trip to Orlando, neither SunRail nor Lynx is anywhere near the top of my list of transportation to use locally, and that will remain the case for decades as far as I can tell. It is always some combination of Taxi/Uber/Lyft/Rental Car.

Maybe you don't understand the lay of the land given that you suggest extending SunRail from the Airport to I Drive. There is a plan to build some rail based system between the airport and I Drive at some point in the future. But it is neither SunRail nor AAF. It will most likely be an elevated system LRT/Monorail/Maglev whatever other comes to people's mind. Haven't heard Hyperloop mentioned yet LOL!


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## Anderson

Jis,

When the bullet train was still on the table, I remember Disney being potentially cooperative with that (they indicated that if the train went via one of the options on the table they'd cut their Mears service). This at least suggests that there is a viable price (probably not $2/ticket, but perhaps $5-7, given the roughly $20/day parking charge for non-passholders and given that they'd be cutting a substantial amount of bus service in the process). I suspect had it been a total non-starter Disney wouldn't have bothered to entreat the option and would've just argued for a different routing, perhaps not even formally, and probably would have gotten it.

Then again, the prospect of there being a stop potentially convenient to Universal/Sea World (at International Drive, though I don't know _where_ at I-Drive) but not WDW might also have played a role in that proposal as well.


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## jis

The first Brightline consist crossing the St. Johns River in Jacksonville enroute to FEC's Bowden Yard today.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/12/13-brightline-on-fec-rails#.WFBZ7csgxv8.facebook


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## Mystic River Dragon

Oh, what a lovely photo--with the water and boats and blue sky, it looks right at home there in Florida!  (It looked a bit out of place going through the desert!)


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## jis

Anderson said:


> Jis,
> 
> When the bullet train was still on the table, I remember Disney being potentially cooperative with that (they indicated that if the train went via one of the options on the table they'd cut their Mears service). This at least suggests that there is a viable price (probably not $2/ticket, but perhaps $5-7, given the roughly $20/day parking charge for non-passholders and given that they'd be cutting a substantial amount of bus service in the process). I suspect had it been a total non-starter Disney wouldn't have bothered to entreat the option and would've just argued for a different routing, perhaps not even formally, and probably would have gotten it.
> 
> Then again, the prospect of there being a stop potentially convenient to Universal/Sea World (at International Drive, though I don't know _where_ at I-Drive) but not WDW might also have played a role in that proposal as well.


As I said, nothing is ever a total non-starter. There is always a deal that can be made for an appropriate sum of money changing hands. The question is, is it really worth the money in question to the one that has to hand the money over to someone else. AAF couldn't really care less locating a station at a place that will cost them an arm and a leg to acquire the property to even get there, let alone then pay salutations to someone else for the right to runt rains to there. As long as it was Uncle Sam's largess involved, of course everyone could line upto the trough and try to suck in as much as they could. And why not? 

But as far as AAF is concerned, given the financial and regulatory environment that it is working within. OIA provides an ideal location which already has connectivity toe everywhere in Orlando in place and more of it in the plans. If they should wish to grow towards Tampa, there is an ROW available to get them to I-4 ROW. And all this at the right price. Anything else will cost an order of magnitude more and the incremental cost would probably never be recovered. AAF has been told in no uncertain terms that the only thing that Florida State will support is possibly issuance of favorable terms bonds, and some help in negotiating access to ROW, but preferably with no use of eminent domain, and no direct state funding. That is a pretty constrained environment to work in.I don;t see that changing until there is a sea change in Tallahassee


----------



## jis

Brightline consists arrives in West Palm Beach

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154869699054602&set=a.90311689601.103783.537714601&type=3&theater


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> But as far as AAF is concerned, given the financial and regulatory environment that it is working within. OIA provides an ideal location which already has connectivity toe everywhere in Orlando in place and more of it in the plans. If they should wish to grow towards Tampa, there is an ROW available to get them to I-4 ROW. And all this at the right price. Anything else will cost an order of magnitude more and the incremental cost would probably never be recovered. AAF has been told in no uncertain terms that the only thing that Florida State will support is possibly issuance of favorable terms bonds, and some help in negotiating access to ROW, but preferably with no use of eminent domain, and no direct state funding. That is a pretty constrained environment to work in.I don;t see that changing until there is a sea change in Tallahassee


Let's wait until Brightine has been up and running for a few years and there are real tangible and visible benefits along the route and changes in commuting and genberal travelling behavior and preferences.

Attitudes, in politics, in business and by individuals do change over time, especially if evidence changes, and then many of the points you mention will be open to reconsideration.

And it's then that projects that are shovel ready, as in somebody has already done some preliminary planning and has some ridership foreacsts and costs on the table that will clearly have an advantage over those who have been in denial and have been claiming trains are bad bad bad.

I actually know the I-drive area because I used to attend a once yearly work-related convention there. The convention has actually been relocated to a more transit friendly location precisely because there was negative feedback from participants from places like Germany and Japan where it is considered totally normal that you can ride transit from the airport to the convention and back.


----------



## jis

There is a plan to construct a transit link from OIA to I-Drive. There is space set aside in the South Terminal internmodal station together with the ROW to be used on airport property to get it to connect to the planned routing along SR528/Sandlake Road.Most recently there was talk of some kind of a Maglev, but that seems to have died down for now, and according to latest reports, is pretty much dead. OIA Board of Directors decided back in Dec 2015 to start negotiating with an LRT project (run by the same guy who was trying to build the Maglev, which got shot down on technical grounds) on details of the ROW on airport property, which is broadly set aside along the west side of the AAF ROW from the intermodal station to SR528. However, even that effort seems to have stalled since Morris failed to bring a final agreement to the Board to vote on by mid 2016.

However, the plan as far as the MPO of Orlando is concerned is still to build some kind of local transit system between OIA and I-Drive/Convention Center. The original plan called for high speed light rail roughly along Sandlake Road to I-Drive and then down to the Convention Center along I-Drive, possibly on an elevated structure. But this being Florida, one never knows if anything will ever get built at all, until it actually happens.

Whatever is built, according to impression gathered from private conversations with folks at AAF so far, will not be AAF. If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.


Should AAF ever build in the Interstate 4 ROW, the route would pass directly through Walt Disney World property, so for those dreaming of a possible Disney station, that would be the (slim) possibility. Again, as Jis noted, that's a really big if. Frankly, despite assurances financing will not derail the project, I'm not completely convinced AAF will ever reach Orlando, let alone further expansion. In their defense, I didn't think they'd get as far as they have already either, so we'll see.


----------



## jis

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.
> 
> 
> 
> Should AAF ever build in the Interstate 4 ROW, the route would pass directly through Walt Disney World property, so for those dreaming of a possible Disney station, that would be the (slim) possibility. Again, as Jis noted, that's a really big if. Frankly, despite assurances financing will not derail the project, I'm not completely convinced AAF will ever reach Orlando, let alone further expansion. In their defense, I didn't think they'd get as far as they have already either, so we'll see.
Click to expand...

Oh either they will reach Orlando or they will shut down entirely. Long term, they don't really have a business case without reaching Orlando, unless they are able to capture an extremely unexpectedly high proportion of traffic between Miami and WPB. Heck, anything is possible I guess. The beauty of their approach is that the real estate developments around the train stations will not necessarily crash and burn if the trains cannot be run profitably. The net profitability will be significantly lower due to horrendous traffic etc.

There really is no particular reason that they won't reach Orlando. The rearranging of the bond into tranches is ll about increasing the ease of getting there and making the construction through Martin and Indian River Counties entirely independent of any bond issuance. They are using bond money to finance the West Palm beach segment instead post facto, and transferring internal money to construct through those two counties. They should not have any difficulty with county specific bond issuance for Brevard or Orange counties.

If they build to Tampa, they won't be on I-4 median north of the SR417 intersection, so they will be far from Walt Disney World Property, which is mostly to the north of there.

There is very little that stops them from reverting the whole thing to a Miami - JAX service, in the remote case that Orlando fails to materialize. That expansion is relatively cheap, possibly cheaper than the Cocoa - Orlando segment if they already have the segment upto Cocoa even halfway in place. It does not require double tracking all the way, just a bunch of judiciously placed crossing sidings and a few stations on their own property with associated real estate development to fund most of it.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.
> 
> 
> 
> Should AAF ever build in the Interstate 4 ROW, the route would pass directly through Walt Disney World property, so for those dreaming of a possible Disney station, that would be the (slim) possibility. Again, as Jis noted, that's a really big if. Frankly, despite assurances financing will not derail the project, I'm not completely convinced AAF will ever reach Orlando, let alone further expansion. In their defense, I didn't think they'd get as far as they have already either, so we'll see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh either they will reach Orlando or they will shut down entirely. Long term, they don't really have a business case without reaching Orlando, unless they are able to capture an extremely unexpectedly high proportion of traffic between Miami and WPB. Heck, anything is possible I guess. The beauty of their approach is that the real estate developments around the train stations will not necessarily crash and burn if the trains cannot be run profitably. The net profitability will be significantly lower due to horrendous traffic etc.
> 
> There really is no particular reason that they won't reach Orlando. The rearranging of the bond into tranches is ll about increasing the ease of getting there and making the construction through Martin and Indian River Counties entirely independent of any bond issuance. They are using bond money to finance the West Palm beach segment instead post facto, and transferring internal money to construct through those two counties. They should not have any difficulty with county specific bond issuance for Brevard or Orange counties.
> 
> If they build to Tampa, they won't be on I-4 median north of the SR417 intersection, so they will be far from Walt Disney World Property, which is mostly to the north of there.
> 
> There is very little that stops them from reverting the whole thing to a Miami - JAX service, in the remote case that Orlando fails to materialize. That expansion is relatively cheap, possibly cheaper than the Cocoa - Orlando segment if they already have the segment upto Cocoa even halfway in place. It does not require double tracking all the way, just a bunch of judiciously placed crossing sidings and a few stations on their own property with associated real estate development to fund most of it.
Click to expand...

I agree about the rearranging of the PAB tranches in order to avoid funding the Treasure Coast. However, I don't think they will build the Jacksonville to Cocoa (or Miami if Orlando isn't built) section anytime soon as the traffic is not there to support the 300 miles of upgraded track. However, the Tampa expansion seems more doable based on potential traffic between SE Florida and Tampa as well as the heavy local traffic between Tampa and Orlando. Even at 3 lanes each direction, I-4 is packed almost 7 days a week no matter the time of day. I have copied the trip numbers between each region of Florida below from the 2006 Florida Rail Vision plan. Although a bit dated, it shows that trips between Tampa and SE Florida alone are half of Orlando to SE Florida. Additional trips between Tampa and Orlando are very high and would add to the total traffic on any Tampa expansion. Trips to/from Jacksonville/NE Florida are not that significant in comparison.

I haven't heard anything before now about AAF using 417 to get to I-4. Is that what AAF unofficially has told you? I had always assumed they would follow 428 to the convention center area (along the old proposed HSR route) and try to pick up a stop around Universal or WDW versus 417 which skips those areas as you state.

http://www.fdot.gov/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

Florida Intercity Travel in Selected Markets

Market Total Person Trips (2000) Total Person Trips (2020) Total Person Trips (2040)

S.E. Florida - Central Florida 9,446,524 18,420,722 30,394,191

S.E. Florida - Tampa Bay 4,850,862 8,537,517 14,086,903

S.E. Florida-N.E. Florida 1,304,613 2,283,073 3,767,070

Central Florida-Tampa Bay 14,156,497 29,162,384 48,117,933

Central Florida-N.E. Florida 3,537,194 7,321,992 12,081,286

Tampa Bay-N.E. Florida 1,545,914 2,906,318 4,795,425


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Whatever is built, according to impression gathered from private conversations with folks at AAF so far, will not be AAF. If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.


I agree that it's unlikley that AAF will go to Tampa, at least not within the next 20 years or so. Maybe at some point the Florida HSR might get revived but this is a very big maybe.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> There is a plan to construct a transit link from OIA to I-Drive. There is space set aside in the South Terminal internmodal station together with the ROW to be used on airport property to get it to connect to the planned routing along SR528/Sandlake Road.Most recently there was talk of some kind of a Maglev, but that seems to have died down for now, and according to latest reports, is pretty much dead. OIA Board of Directors decided back in Dec 2015 to start negotiating with an LRT project (run by the same guy who was trying to build the Maglev, which got shot down on technical grounds) on details of the ROW on airport property, which is broadly set aside along the west side of the AAF ROW from the intermodal station to SR528. However, even that effort seems to have stalled since Morris failed to bring a final agreement to the Board to vote on by mid 2016.
> 
> However, the plan as far as the MPO of Orlando is concerned is still to build some kind of local transit system between OIA and I-Drive/Convention Center. The original plan called for high speed light rail roughly along Sandlake Road to I-Drive and then down to the Convention Center along I-Drive, possibly on an elevated structure. But this being Florida, one never knows if anything will ever get built at all, until it actually happens.


At the end of the day, whether its full rail or a monorail or light rail or even BRT is something that matters to foamers but less to the actual systemic connectivity and having a working system.


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## Scott Orlando

Another trackside video

https://youtu.be/eEqmZy1nAb0


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## jis

Regarding what AAF said, officially their position as far as I can tell is that if an opportunity presents itself sometime in the future they might look at Tampa.

What I am speculating here are just my speculations based on informal chats with individuals, not with AAF, so it should be taken with an appropriate pinch of salt.

My speculation, based on some random conversations with people who shall remain unnamed is that once the Miami - Orlando thing is in place and running, doing a Jacksonville add-on is a trivial well constrained and understood problem with a relatively modest pricetag which involves almost no property acquisition issue. Everything that is needed is already owned by the Fortress Group (FG) in some way shape or form. It fits the FG model of building real estate developments and a railroad to connect them together. So most likely it is just a question of when, not if. In addition Jacksonville is already planning on it and setting aside access routes and such to the Transportation Center that they are building by the Convention Center, the old train station. They would really like both FEC and Amtrak to operate out of there.

Orlando - Tampa is an entirely different kettle of fish that is way outside the normal FG pattern. It involves others properties that have to be acquired and it presents relatively little opportunity for FG to build out huge real estate projects on its own property to justify for them the expenditure of putting a railroad together. So that one is a big "if" question first. Does this mean that no one will build Orlando to Tampa? Of course not. But it does mean that FG is likely to be much more circumspect about it. As Brian_tampa mentioned, one factor in favor of a Tampa project is the potential of a huge ridership, and that might indeed help answer the "if" question favorably even though FG has little property to develop in that part of Florida as far as I can tell. Certainly any significant windfall in the way of infrastructure development support from the private industry focused administration in Washington could help a lot there too.

BTW, did you know that the guys who were peddling the Maglev system (now defunct) for OIA to Convention Center had grand plans to then extend it to Tampa? Of course there was no funding for any of it beyond a dream and a prayer or two. 

Again, no, no one from AAF said this or anything else that I have been babbling on out. It is my observation looking at past and present behavior patterns of the Flagler descendant operations which Fortress seems to be following. Their primary interest is in the Real Estate development and feeding business to them. So much so, that they are willing to sell off the FECR freight operations while retaining the underlying real estate property. My conjecture is that people who think the Brightline model can be replicated elsewhere and Fortress will do it, are in for a disappointment. Someone else might do it, but I don;t really see Fortress doing it in the near to medium term future. An interesting tidbit that many don;t realize, or forget, is that AAF and FEC Railroad are not even within the same subsidiary of the Fortress Group. FECR is a direct subsidiary of FG whereas AAF is a subsidiary of FEC Industries, which is a subsidiary of FG. The relationship between AAF and FECR is truly arms length, and recently there have been rumblings in the industry about FG trying to peddle FECR to short line operators. That also partly explains why they have kept AAF and FECR very seperate when dealing with regulatory matters too.


----------



## bretton88

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever is built, according to impression gathered from private conversations with folks at AAF so far, will not be AAF. If AAF is built out to Tampa - very big if at this point, it will exit the airport near the south exit, and then follow SR417 ROW to I-4 Median. It is going to be a much more expensive project overall than the Cocoa - OIA link, and will not be constructed unless there is money forthcoming from the state, the feds or both.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that it's unlikley that AAF will go to Tampa, at least not within the next 20 years or so. Maybe at some point the Florida HSR might get revived but this is a very big maybe.
Click to expand...

The reason it's so expensive is to make Tampa service viable, you start talking about speeds above 125mph, which means electrification. Since it wouldn't make sense to force a transfer at OIA, they'd be looking at having to re-upgrade the entire route. I would think that AAF must not see a stand alone Tampa to Orlando route as being viable or they'd be pursuing it.


----------



## jis

Fortress Group does not have significant real estate holdings along the Tampa - Orlando route, so in general they would have a tendency to not pursue it. They are not a transport company. They are a real estate company that would build transport corridors to make their real estate more valuable, just like their predecessors the Flagler folks did. AAF simply does the bidding of their owners, like most others.

BTW, there is no reason that the route from Orlando to Tampa has to necessarily be over 125mph. The distance is 85 miles. That distance takes 40 mins at 125mph, 27 mins at 186mph and 23 mins at 220mph. Of course that assumes that the entire distance is run at that speed, which will never be the case. So the differences will be even less, One has to start asking seriously what is the "bang for the buck", Don;t get me wrong. I am all for electrification, but with the exorbitant cost of electrification in the US these days, one has to have a good enough reason to invest that amount, specially if one has to fund it privately.

Even for traveling from Miami to Tampa, whether it takes 3 hours and 41 mins or 3 hours and 27 mins seems to not make that much of a difference.

Meanwhile as we speak, already dual mode articulated tilting train sets are being conceived for operating under electric power at 180mph and diesel power at 125mph elsewhere in the world. So nothing requires electrifying the entire route given the advancement of technology.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> Fortress Group does not have significant real estate holdings along the Tampa - Orlando route, so in general they would have a tendency to not pursue it. They are not a transport company. They are a real estate company that would build transport corridors to make their real estate more valuable, just like their predecessors the Flagler folks did. AAF simply does the bidding of their owners, like most others.
> 
> BTW, there is no reason that the route from Orlando to Tampa has to necessarily be over 125mph. The distance is 85 miles. That distance takes 40 mins at 125mph, 27 mins at 186mph and 23 mins at 220mph. Of course that assumes that the entire distance is run at that speed, which will never be the case. So the differences will be even less, One has to start asking seriously what is the "bang for the buck", Don;t get me wrong. I am all for electrification, but with the exorbitant cost of electrification in the US these days, one has to have a good enough reason to invest that amount, specially if one has to fund it privately.
> 
> Even for traveling from Miami to Tampa, whether it takes 3 hours and 41 mins or 3 hours and 27 mins seems to not make that much of a difference.
> 
> Meanwhile as we speak, already dual mode articulated tilting train sets are being conceived for operating under electric power at 180mph and diesel power at 125mph elsewhere in the world. So nothing requires electrifying the entire route given the advancement of technology.


Makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if after the extension to Jacksonville happens (which will be a success since the train will take about 4 hours versus at least 5 hours of driving), Tampa will start putting pressure on the state to figure out how to link them into brightline. They'd definitely stand out as a major point not linked by quality rail service.


----------



## jis

That is a very plausible scenario. The Orlando - Tampa Corridor is part of the Florida State Passenger Rail Plan - yes such a thing does exist. So at that level it does not need any selling. It is just that attitudes need to change in Tallahassee to get the Florida DOT to pay attention to its own plans that are gathering dust on a back shelf these days due to a transit hostile Governor.

Not only to Tampa, but there is a link from Tampa all the way down to Fort Myers that appears in it too. But that may be a bit of a stretch.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Again, no, no one from AAF said this or anything else that I have been babbling on out. It is my observation looking at past and present behavior patterns of the Flagler descendant operations which Fortress seems to be following. Their primary interest is in the Real Estate development and feeding business to them. So much so, that they are willing to sell off the FECR freight operations while retaining the underlying real estate property. My conjecture is that people who think the Brightline model can be replicated elsewhere and Fortress will do it, are in for a disappointment. Someone else might do it, but I don;t really see Fortress doing it in the near to medium term future. An interesting tidbit that many don;t realize, or forget, is that AAF and FEC Railroad are not even within the same subsidiary of the Fortress Group. FECR is a direct subsidiary of FG whereas AAF is a subsidiary of FEC Industries, which is a subsidiary of FG. The relationship between AAF and FECR is truly arms length, and recently there have been rumblings in the industry about FG trying to peddle FECR to short line operators. That also partly explains why they have kept AAF and FECR very seperate when dealing with regulatory matters too.


But surely the success of AAF depends on good scheduling. Spinning off the freight operations, track maintenance and dispatching to a shortline seems counter intuitive to me.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> But surely the success of AAF depends on good scheduling. Spinning off the freight operations, track maintenance and dispatching to a shortline seems counter intuitive to me.


Being owned by a railroad company is going to be worse than being owned by a random holdings umbrella company? It is not like selling it means dismantling it. Sales can take place with associated long term contracts and resource commitments. I don't see how it implies anything with regard to contract driven provision of service at specified quality level for specific agreed upon guaranteed income for a long time. It does not imply dismantling the running operation into multiple pieces and doling them off at all. My guess is that FECR whether owned by FG or someone else, will continue to be FECR just like it has been through its previous acquisitions etc.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> But surely the success of AAF depends on good scheduling. Spinning off the freight operations, track maintenance and dispatching to a shortline seems counter intuitive to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Being owned by a railroad company is going to be worse than being owned by a random holdings umbrella company? It is not like selling it means dismantling it. Sales can take place with associated long term contracts and resource commitments. I don't see how it implies anything with regard to contract driven provision of service at specified quality level for specific agreed upon guaranteed income for a long time. It does not imply dismantling the running operation into multiple pieces and doling them off at all. My guess is that FECR whether owned by FG or someone else, will continue to be FECR just like it has been through its previous acquisitions etc.
Click to expand...

Often when companies structure their activities into subsidiaries, or as in this case, susbidiaries of subsidiaries,this does not mean there are concrete walls between thos subsidiaries. Subsidiaries are often created from an accounting or taxation perspective more than an operational perspective. If say AAF trains are being delayed because the dispatcher at FECR is priorizing freight, a senior AAF guy can walk across the corridor and lean on some people there and demand change. People within the same family of companies don't really say "you're not my boss, you can't tell me what to do", but if it's a separate company and the agreement isn't 100% watertight somebody will find and use the loophole because your own bottom lne matters more then the other guy's business. This is one of the reasons the Uk rail system was in such a mess for the first decade or so after privatization. It was all about the interfaces between different stakeholders not being sufficiently well defined and clarifyinfg whose resposnibility stopped where led to a lot of creative legalisms and people worming and squirming and passing the buck to others wherever they could. And furthermore, divisions within the same group may be fluid. It may make sense to keep AAF in a separate box during the construction and ramping up stage because that's not a core buisness for a freight railroad, but in the longer term real estate companies don't really want to run railroads and I can imagine AAF being transferred at some later point.


----------



## jis

AAF is owned by the real estate company FECI. Significant part of income from AAF's operation is expected to be from real estate leasing and hospitality sub leases. FEC Railroad is owned by the umbrella holding company FG. This reorganization happened when FECI was given AAF. At that point FECR was moved out of FECI to the holding company FG. I have no clue why. Also I have no idea what their plans may be except for what they have stated publicly.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> AAF is owned by the real estate company FECI. Significant part of income from AAF's operation is expected to be from real estate leasing and hospitality sub leases. FEC Railroad is owned by the umbrella holding company FG. This reorganization happened when FECI was given AAF. At that point FECR was moved out of FECI to the holding company FG. I have no clue why. Also I have no idea what their plans may be except for what they have stated publicly.


I'm sure it will all be revealed in due time.


----------



## chrsjrcj

http://malled.blog.mypalmbeachpost.com/2017/01/10/all-aboards-brightline-to-unveil-first-passenger-train/

Media unveiling of the train is tomorrow. Should hit the test track (I believe it is from just north of Belvedere Rd. to just north of Hypoluxo Rd. in Palm Beach County) on MLK day.


----------



## chrsjrcj

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/take-look-all-aboard-brightline-unveils-first-passenger-train/9hOtiavIcohs3VrsZrwEvN/

"BrightBlue" was unveiled today. Some really clever marketing on the train too. You can tell that they are really big on branding.

When all is said and done, this is going to be a really nice train. On par with the Acela (at minimum) IMO.


----------



## neroden

In regards to Tampa-Orlando service, the I-4 median is vacant, clear, and ready for tracks and stations from Universal Studios Orlando to 34th St. in Tampa. There's probably lots of land speculation which could be done around there.

I don't remember where the HSR line was supposed to go east and west of there. The toll road median (417) in Orlando is also pretty empty, though, which is one way to get to the Orlando Airport.

So I hope AAF are keeping in touch with the state government and tollway authority. They may be able to make some kind of deal (land for trains)...


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/take-look-all-aboard-brightline-unveils-first-passenger-train/9hOtiavIcohs3VrsZrwEvN/
> 
> "BrightBlue" was unveiled today. Some really clever marketing on the train too. You can tell that they are really big on branding.
> 
> When all is said and done, this is going to be a really nice train. On par with the Acela (at minimum) IMO.


Being about 20 years newer than Acela, and with a lot of progress having been made since then, I think it wiould be fair to expect it to be better tha Acela.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> In regards to Tampa-Orlando service, the I-4 median is vacant, clear, and ready for tracks and stations from Universal Studios Orlando to 34th St. in Tampa. There's probably lots of land speculation which could be done around there.
> 
> I don't remember where the HSR line was supposed to go east and west of there. The toll road median (417) in Orlando is also pretty empty, though, which is one way to get to the Orlando Airport.
> 
> So I hope AAF are keeping in touch with the state government and tollway authority. They may be able to make some kind of deal (land for trains)...


The ROW is being preserved. Beyond that nothing will happen until mid-twenties at the earliest, and it is also not clear if AAF will be involved in such, though they have aspirations of getting there some day, but not really soon. As I have mentioned before, a tentative ROW following 417 to I-4 (roughly) to get from the airport to the I-4 corridor has been discussed off and on, but that is about where things stand. Nothing concrete.


----------



## jis

Video of a Brightline person explaining the features of a Brightline Select (First) Class Car.


----------



## AG1

Another partial screen vertical orientated video. Does anyone have a vertical aspect computer screen that this displays well on ? Come on people, *please *

take horizontal video so we can see the whole shot ! Rant over.


----------



## MARC Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/take-look-all-aboard-brightline-unveils-first-passenger-train/9hOtiavIcohs3VrsZrwEvN/
> 
> "BrightBlue" was unveiled today. Some really clever marketing on the train too. You can tell that they are really big on branding.
> 
> When all is said and done, this is going to be a really nice train. On par with the Acela (at minimum) IMO.


Hmm, they'll be 4 car trains, at least at first. Not quite up to NEC Standards of 8 car trains.


----------



## chrsjrcj

In fairness, the NEC has been around decades longer than Brightline.


----------



## CCC1007

MARC Rider said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/take-look-all-aboard-brightline-unveils-first-passenger-train/9hOtiavIcohs3VrsZrwEvN/
> 
> "BrightBlue" was unveiled today. Some really clever marketing on the train too. You can tell that they are really big on branding.
> 
> When all is said and done, this is going to be a really nice train. On par with the Acela (at minimum) IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, they'll be 4 car trains, at least at first. Not quite up to NEC Standards of 8 car trains.
Click to expand...

It's not like the train sets are designed to accommodate more cars...


----------



## jis

Acelas are 6 car trains. So NEC standard is not necessarily 8 cars. It is often the case that NER trains are 8 cars. But even for those, some are 7 or even 6 cars and others are 9 cars. So frankly there is no NEC standard.

In passenger facilities and ambiance arguably the Brightline trains will be way better than anything that runs on the NEC today. That should not be surprising considering that everything that runs on the NEC is from the last century.


----------



## cirdan

CCC1007 said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/take-look-all-aboard-brightline-unveils-first-passenger-train/9hOtiavIcohs3VrsZrwEvN/
> 
> "BrightBlue" was unveiled today. Some really clever marketing on the train too. You can tell that they are really big on branding.
> 
> When all is said and done, this is going to be a really nice train. On par with the Acela (at minimum) IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, they'll be 4 car trains, at least at first. Not quite up to NEC Standards of 8 car trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not like the train sets are designed to accommodate more cars...
Click to expand...

2 locomotives for 4 cars seems somewhat excessive.

It only really makes sense if you consider it a temporary and transitional phase in the buildup to full service with more and longer trains.


----------



## jis

The Miami - WPB service is temporary using four car trains. Their target is six cars initially for the Orlando service, eventually growing to eight cars.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> The Miami - WPB service is temporary using four car trains. Their target is six cars initially for the Orlando service, eventually growing to eight cars.


I thought it was going to be 7 once the corridor is complete.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Miami - WPB service is temporary using four car trains. Their target is six cars initially for the Orlando service, eventually growing to eight cars.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was going to be 7 once the corridor is complete.
Click to expand...

It is changeable easily and they will be tested for upto 8. What they will actually operate is a different matter which will be determined by demand. But it is true that the color coordinated sets will be 7 cars long initially.


----------



## VentureForth

That includes a dining car?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> That includes a dining car?


No Dining Car. First Class gets meal service at their seat. There is a Cafe/Lounge Facility in one of the car, for the whole train


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> That includes a dining car?
> 
> 
> 
> No Dining Car. First Class gets meal service at their seat. There is a Cafe/Lounge Facility in one of the car, for the whole train
Click to expand...

but only in the full build sets.Right?

The initial short sets are seating only.

Even if you serve meals at people's seats, you still need a small kitchenette area so you can prepare stuff (even if it's just preheating) and store it.

Or am I mistaken?


----------



## jis

The First Class Car has food prep area built into it, just like in the Acela First Class. The food delivered in First Class does not require the presence of the Cafe/Lounge Car.

I am not sure what Cafe facility is planned for Coach Class initially. Will know more about it in detail in a couple of months when we hold the FRPC Meeting hosted by Brightline.


----------



## chrsjrcj

There is a section for food and beverage carts in the end cars (both car 1 and car 4). I'm assuming the food is prepared at a commissary area at the West Palm Beach station (there is no commissary area at the RRF), where the carts will be loaded on to the train.

There is also a microwave in each end car.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

An interesting story regarding the Orlando International Airport station.

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/230723-orlando-building-train-station-not-sure-trains-will-arrive


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to Tampa-Orlando service, the I-4 median is vacant, clear, and ready for tracks and stations from Universal Studios Orlando to 34th St. in Tampa. There's probably lots of land speculation which could be done around there.
> 
> I don't remember where the HSR line was supposed to go east and west of there. The toll road median (417) in Orlando is also pretty empty, though, which is one way to get to the Orlando Airport.
> 
> So I hope AAF are keeping in touch with the state government and tollway authority. They may be able to make some kind of deal (land for trains)...
> 
> 
> 
> The ROW is being preserved. Beyond that nothing will happen until mid-twenties at the earliest, and it is also not clear if AAF will be involved in such, though they have aspirations of getting there some day, but not really soon. As I have mentioned before, a tentative ROW following 417 to I-4 (roughly) to get from the airport to the I-4 corridor has been discussed off and on, but that is about where things stand. Nothing concrete.
Click to expand...

Good to know. Bluntly, it looks easy. The west end of the preserved right-of-way is not at a very good location for a Tampa station, but apart from that issue, I can't think of a simpler place to build a fully grade-separated line. I'm sure AAF is focused on getting to Orlando, but it just looks so simple to lay tracks down that median.


----------



## jis

I don't think they will do Tampa on their own without help in the form of at least significant public funding for the infrastructure. They need to get a few years of successful operation to Orlando and most likely progress made to JAX first.


----------



## VentureForth

Are there any graphical representations of how the Briteline track will enter MCO? http://allaboardflorida.com/stations/orlando still says construction into MCO will begin in 2017. They seem to be years off target...


----------



## chrsjrcj

I'm pretty sure the terminal that Brightline will stop at has already begun construction. Rail infrastructure won't start until phase 1 begins revenue service.

Also, quite sure that Brightline will enter the new South terminal from the north, going along the eastern boundary of the Nortb terminal.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Are there any graphical representations of how the Briteline track will enter MCO? http://allaboardflorida.com/stations/orlando still says construction into MCO will begin in 2017. They seem to be years off target...


They always said that construction of Phase II will begin after Phase I service starts, which happens middle of the year. We will have to wait until then to see what is going to happen with Phase II construction, won't we?



chrsjrcj said:


> I'm pretty sure the terminal that Brightline will stop at has already begun construction. Rail infrastructure won't start until phase 1 begins revenue service.


Yes construction of the station is well past the halfway mark and on airport property right of way is being graded.



> Also, quite sure that Brightline will enter the new South terminal from the north, going along the eastern boundary of the Nortb terminal.


Yes. From the north. It goes past the North Terminal, ducks under the south connecting road to 417 and enters the station from the north.

The people mover connecting the North Terminal to the Multimodal Center and the South Terminal is also well advanced in its construction. meanwhile a ten gate South Terminal got funded so its construction is starting up.

Take a look at this post way up in this thread to find a Powerpoint presentation that contains a slide showing the lay of the land.


----------



## cirdan

Just supposing the worst happens and Phase 2 either never gets built or gets postponed to point in the distant future.

Is phase 1 sufficient as a self sustating operation? Obviously it's not going to break even as such but with all the real estate interests included, will it be rational? Or do the investors need phase 2 for this to make sense?

In other words, to me it seems that Phase 1 is just a glorified commuter operation. Will that still work?


----------



## jis

I have asked that question and the official answer from Brightline has always been that it is an irrelevant question since Phase II is going to be built irrespective of what happens with the bond situation.

Anything else beyond that would be idle speculation based on nothing on my part.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> I have asked that question and the official answer from Brightline has always been that it is an irrelevant question since Phase II is going to be built irrespective of what happens with the bond situation.
> 
> Anything else beyond that would be idle speculation based on nothing on my part.


Really, what else are they going to say? They can't really admit phase II may not happen without killing prospects for financing (which does appear to be a problem, regardless of what Brightline says publicly) and investment in the overall project. Notably, the Orlando Aviation Authority (responsible for the new airport station) has admitted the expected trains may never arrive.

It is indeed just speculation, but I don't really expect the new construction to Orlando to ever be completed. However, in fairness I didn't think the project would ever get this far, either. _Maybe_ some sort of extension north to Cocoa and Jacksonville, because in theory that could be done with minimal investment (wouldn't be high speed), but again, just informed speculation.


----------



## Anderson

I've got to wonder what the numbers would look like with a Cocoa-Jacksonville extension but no Orlando extension. On the one hand there's a _very_ good chance they could, if they wanted, milk Amtrak access, both to tracks and to stations, for a decent bit of cash (Amtrak estimated the net pax addition from an FEC operation on the Star to be about 100k; my best guess is that such a number would translate into $5-7m in revenue (though I don't know what the cost profiles would look like). I also can't say whether the Meteor would do better or worse. On the other hand, I also have to wonder about the financial profile of a 90-110 MPH train. Technically it wouldn't be HSR and they'd probably be stuck with a bus to Orlando.


----------



## MikefromCrete

The numbers won't be there for a Jacksonville-Miami service. The whole Brightline plan is designed to tap into the two largest markets in Florida. Having trains run up and down the coast won't provide enough revenue. Having to connect to a bus to get to Orlando won't attract anybody. If Brightline doesn't go to Orlando, it won't go anywhere.


----------



## jis

Yup, if they don't get to Orlando they will just abandon the whole thing and walk away, is my guess. Maybe they'll keep the WPB thing running for a bit. There will be no just Miami to Jacksonville thing run by them without government subsidy.


----------



## neroden

Looks to me like the only delays on the Palm Beach - Orlando construction are bogus NIMBY lawsuits.

Maybe someone can notify Trump of the government paperwork delays which are hindering private business construction.

Anyway, with the regulatory changes already made by *Obama*, Brightline should be able to construct and operate almost everything from WPB to Cocoa without asking anyone's permission, as long as they don't create new obstructions to waterways, don't have in-water work, and don't threaten endangered species. There's a new set of Categorical Exclusions for work on existing railroad rights-of-way. I think this can be done since all the rivers are small; it should be possible to build clear spans over them which don't even go into the riverbanks.

It might be politically necessary to separate the Cocoa extension from the Orlando Airport extension; once the Cocoa extension is a fait accompli, it's probable that the NIMBYs will give up when it comes to the airport extension.


----------



## jis

There is no NIMBY opposition to construction of the Cocoa - Orlando section. There are still some "who is going to pay for grade crossing improvements?" Issues in Brevard County ( that is between Micco and Cocoa) that will get resolved relatively easily when the time comes. The NIMBY opposition is mostly in Martin, St. Lucie and Indian River Counties with some spillover into South Brevard County - specifically Mucco, Barefoot Bay, Valkaria and Grant - all rural areas. And then there is the new State Senator from South Brevard to contend with - Debbie Mayfield. But eventually I think it will get done.

The bottom line is if it is built to Cocoa, building it to Orlando will face no opposition from anyone. Indeed, if it is even built upto Sebastian the rest will pretty much flow through relatively easily in spite of small NIMBY pockets.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Yes. From the north. It goes past the North Terminal, ducks under the south connecting road to 417 and enters the station from the north.
> 
> The people mover connecting the North Terminal to the Multimodal Center and the South Terminal is also well advanced in its construction. meanwhile a ten gate South Terminal got funded so its construction is starting up.
> 
> Take a look at this post way up in this thread to find a Powerpoint presentation that contains a slide showing the lay of the land.


Nice route for extending to Tampa as a single line (no reversal). Here's hoping they can get past the NIMBY explosion and finance it. A Tampa-Orlando-Miami run is an extremely sound route.


----------



## neroden

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/11/29/all-aboard-federal-officials-move-to-end-lawsuit-over-tax-exempt-rail-bonds/

OK, from what I know about how the law works, DOT just blew away the major lawsuit against the bond certification. If DOT authorizes the second set of bonds (with the EIS now complete), the plaintiffs won't be able to run the same bogus lawsuit tactics.

The morons at Indian River and Martin Counties are still trying to fight this, but the fact is that the only argument they had was premised on the bonds being authorized before the EIS. With that gone, they have no argument. It's an open question whether the new Transportation Secretary will approve the bonds for Phase II, but it *does* seem like the sort of thing you'd *expect* her to approve based on her background.

One of the permit lawsuits (from Indian River) is down, as well:

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/12/02/indian-river-county-drops-permit-challenge-for-all-aboards-brightline-project/

And the Indian River government seems to be giving up.

These were bogus lawsuits filed to attempt to delay the project. It looks like they're failing, thank goodness. I'm not sure how many more lawsuits there are left to knock down (Martin County water permit lawsuit looks like it's the last one), but the legal progress seems to be going well.

...and it looks like the recently elected Martin County Commissioners are sick of wasting money on frivolous lawsuits, even though they are officially "leaving All Aboard Florida out of that discussion".

http://www.tcpalm.com/story/opinion/columnists/rich-campbell/2016/12/02/rich-campbell-martin-county-commission-makes-180-degree-turn-warp-speed/94661308/

OK, so now, just line up the bond investors. Heck, I'd invest if I didn't have much better investment opportunities available this year.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

neroden said:


> Maybe someone can notify Trump of the government paperwork delays which are hindering private business construction.


This is not a political post, so both mods and members don't treat it as one.

The protections against action in our constitution, our laws, and our regulations are always a double edged sword so be careful what you wish for.

Donald Trump, like him or not, is a fast-change leader- that's probably the only thing both sides can agree on.

All of the perceived good things that Trump's supporters believe he will do for our country, those are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the slowing gum of that regulatory system. Whatever good he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.

Flip side: All of the perceived bad things that Trumps detractors believe he will do for our country, those things are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the gum of that same regulatory system. Whatever bad he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.

As you can see from my identically worded presentation I am not taking sides on our President at this time. I personally feel I should let him have the same 100 days as every other president to judge him (although I believe people should voice (and more so mount) all opposition to specific issues they have. He has been in office for 17 days. I am inclined to give him the the remaining 83 before taking an overall position.

Especially since, as far as I can tell, both sides of the Trump debate seem to be actually totally clueless as to the mans intentions. E.G. There are members on this board who support Trump because they feel certain his intention is to greatly improve transit, while others detest him because they feel certain his intent is to obliterate it.

I personally don't have a clue. And my experience is that this is the case either when the perpetuating subject is clueless- or has a carefully devised plan that he is hiding because no matter how good the plan may or may not be, somebody will object to it, and he wants to implement it before people figure out what it is. I favor the latter, for better or worse.

My main point is that we should be careful when we object to the gummy works of our government. For as many things that we want that it slows or spoils, it slows or spoils things we don't want.

Mods: if you think parts of my post are unjustified, feel free to delete anything you see as excessively political. But please leave the first five paragraphs and the one above this instruction. I think it is too important a point.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good post Lion! I despise the guy and all he campaigned on, ( George Wallace and Nixon's playbook)but as you say the system moves slow (which is the genius of our founding fathers)so extremes usually don't prevail in Washington, in the long run the old Watergate saying "Follow the Money"and an even older one "Money talks,and BS walks!" will be the course of State.

President come and Presidents go, but the System is forever and let's not forget that in Sodom on the Potomac the 2018 and 2020 Elections are already underway!


----------



## jis

As a sage philosopher said, the main purpose of governing laws is to keep a bad government from doing too much harm


----------



## Ziv

GML, I am a Realtor, and when I have a client looking at buying a house in a Home Owners Association, I tell them "The great thing about an HOA is it doesn't allow your neighbors do anything really stupid to the outside of their home. The negative aspect of an HOA is that it doesn't allow you to do a lot of really cool things to the outside of your property." And then I grin at them. Most of them laugh.

Gridlock is kind of similar in a way. It hampers your team and that feels like a negative, but it also hampers the other team in their efforts to do "stupid" things, so it kind of balances out.

I just want to see Brightline up and running, and from Miami all the way to Orlando would be outstanding. I have been so irritated by the NS and CAF fiascos, any movement forward on rail is doubly welcome.

If memory serves, the FECR extends from Miami to Jacksonville. Now THAT would be a cool route for Brightline to cover, eventually. I drove from College Park MD to Key West back in 1984 for Spring Break. The half way point was about 60 miles north of the Florida line, if memory serves. Florida is a huge state. Having a decent train serving north to south would be a great transportation option.



Green Maned Lion said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe someone can notify Trump of the government paperwork delays which are hindering private business construction.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a political post, so both mods and members don't treat it as one.
> 
> The protections against action in our constitution, our laws, and our regulations are always a double edged sword so be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Donald Trump, like him or not, is a fast-change leader- that's probably the only thing both sides can agree on.
> 
> All of the perceived good things that Trump's supporters believe he will do for our country, those are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the slowing gum of that regulatory system. Whatever good he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.
> 
> Flip side: All of the perceived bad things that Trumps detractors believe he will do for our country, those things are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the gum of that same regulatory system. Whatever bad he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.
> 
> As you can see from my identically worded presentation I am not taking sides on our President at this time. I personally feel I should let him have the same 100 days as every other president to judge him (although I believe people should voice (and more so mount) all opposition to specific issues they have. He has been in office for 17 days. I am inclined to give him the the remaining 83 before taking an overall position.
> 
> Especially since, as far as I can tell, both sides of the Trump debate seem to be actually totally clueless as to the mans intentions. E.G. There are members on this board who support Trump because they feel certain his intention is to greatly improve transit, while others detest him because they feel certain his intent is to obliterate it.
> 
> I personally don't have a clue. And my experience is that this is the case either when the perpetuating subject is clueless- or has a carefully devised plan that he is hiding because no matter how good the plan may or may not be, somebody will object to it, and he wants to implement it before people figure out what it is. I favor the latter, for better or worse.
> 
> My main point is that we should be careful when we object to the gummy works of our government. For as many things that we want that it slows or spoils, it slows or spoils things we don't want.
> 
> Mods: if you think parts of my post are unjustified, feel free to delete anything you see as excessively political. But please leave the first five paragraphs and the one above this instruction. I think it is too important a point.
Click to expand...


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## jis

Ziv, we at the halfway point between Miami and Jacksonville on the FECR are looking forward eagerly to the Orlando service, mainly because we have been given to understand that any further expansion of service depends on a successful operation of the Orlando service. If that does not happen then all bets are off. So far it looks promising in spite a of a few skeptics around like The Voice. But with these things you really never know until the proverbial fat lady sings.


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## Steve4031

GML. That was well stated. As was the HOA analogy. Hopefully the process results in continuing improvements in the infrastructure of our country.


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## cirdan

Sorry if this is a stupid question.I'm getting a bit confused here.

The real purpose of AAF is to boost the real estate holdings of Fortress Investment Group.

That means, they want to leverage the value of the site at Miami so they can charge high rents.

AAF is also developing stations at WPB and Fort Lauderdale. Whereas these sites will also generate some rental revenue, I'm assuming that is just incidental. The real cherry on the cake here is Miami.

Now at the Orlando end, Fortress doesn't own the land and doesn't own the terminal. In fact AAF will pay rent to the airport authority. And seeing the airport is forfeiting taxi and parking income, the charges for the station are not exactly going to be cheap.

So what we have here is a real estate company paying to rent somebody else's real estate.

In other words, Miami is going to have to be so profitable that it can offset all the costs at Orlando, plus the costs of running a railroad, plus make a profit.

Is that realistic?

Or are they maybe secretly planning to stop when Phase 1 is done? Will the combined effects of Brightline and Tri Rail provide sufficient leverage that the reral estate business in Miami can fly?


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## jis

As far as I have heard from them they expect Brightline service to be profitable by itself, and help enhance the value of their properties. My understanding is that they do not expect to reach profitability of Brightline by itself until they have service up and running to Orlando.

Cost of Orlando has to be borne completely by Brightline in their plans. Their business plan assumes that rail operations will not need subsidy from real estate when it is up and running completely, but will require startup subsidy for several years.

I don't understand how Orlando Airport will forfeit taxi and parking income for AAF. In fact it will be getting additional taxi and parking income from those who come to the airport to ride on Brightline.

Wih the railroad they are trying to capture some 2-4% of the total travel market between Miami Metro Area and Orlando. That is where the money is in the travel market.


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## Ziv

Cirdan, everything I have read seems to indicate that Fortress is a real estate company first and foremost, as you note. But, I think Miami won't work nearly as well without traffic from Orlando. Having a railroad with just one major destination would be a recipe for mediocrity, or for a small, one line commuter service. Having the two very different cities/counties as hubs/destinations would make Brightline the tie that binds, so to speak.

IF, and that is a major qualifier, if Fortress thinks they can work Tampa or Jacksonville in profitably, they may do so. Orlando brings a huge amount to the table at a reasonable price. I am not sure that Tampa does.

It is possible that a Jacksonville route would be profitable for Fortress by increasing their land values in northern Florida, with a relatively moderate investment on Fortress' part.


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## Eric S

I would think that Orlando Airport could potentially lose parking and taxi income from improved and expanded local/regional transit services (whether a SunRail commuter rail extension or the proposed light rail line) but that Brightline intercity rail service would, at worst, have a negligible negative impact and would quite likely have a positive impact on such income for the airport.


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## cirdan

Eric S said:


> I would think that Orlando Airport could potentially lose parking and taxi income from improved and expanded local/regional transit services (whether a SunRail commuter rail extension or the proposed light rail line) but that Brightline intercity rail service would, at worst, have a negligible negative impact and would quite likely have a positive impact on such income for the airport.


This is an interesting discussion.

People might drive from all over the Orlano metro area to park their car in Orlando airport and then ride Brightline to Miami. That is a net positive for the airport.

But then there may also be people in places like West Palm Beach who presently drive to Orlando to park and catch a plane, who may in future use Brightline.

Then there is also the question of how well Brightline is marketed to tourists. So a tourist who doesn't know Brightline exists may well book a rental car in advance and then use that from Orlando. But if that tourist is aware of Brightline in advance and Brightline goes where they want to go, the airport is losing out (especially if Brightline can convince rental car companies to establish offices at Brightline's other stations).


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## jis

cirdan said:


> But then there may also be people in places like West Palm Beach who presently drive to Orlando to park and catch a plane, who may in future use Brightline.


That is a very small proportion. WPB is not considered to be within the catchment area of MCO at all. They tend to go to West Palm beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami Airports from the Palm Beach area rather than to Orlando, Melbourne or Sanford.



> Then there is also the question of how well Brightline is marketed to tourists. So a tourist who doesn't know Brightline exists may well book a rental car in advance and then use that from Orlando. But if that tourist is aware of Brightline in advance and Brightline goes where they want to go, the airport is losing out (especially if Brightline can convince rental car companies to establish offices at Brightline's other stations).


Orlando Airport is not very worried about it, neither should you be  . As I mentioned above AAF is hoping to capture maybe tops 5% of the overall Orlando - Palm Beach - Miami market. 95% will still continue dong what they do. The impact of Brightline on overall usage of the facilities that are worrying you will be at the margins at least for the next decade. Attitude towards trains may change and a more connected network might develop some day to change the situation. but it will take a long time in Florida.

As it turns out a small percentage of an enormous market may prove to be adequate to self-support the operation. or that is what Gene Skorpowski and Co's projections and business plans say.

And yes, Brightline will be establishing relationships with rental car companies as well as Uber/Lyft to provide a seamless experience to its customers. So that is not an "if". That is a certainty. But still skimming off 5% from a relatively fast growing and huge market does not seem to concern any of the airports. Orlando Airport actually seems to believe that what they gain in high value customers through access provided by Brightline from WPB will far outweigh any losses to the same access. Remember, Orlando Airport is also a big mall and a hotel, and will be more so with its own growth, adn access of any kind is a good thing. That is why they don;t mind SunRail either.


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## jis

An interesting article in NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/travel/places-to-go-transit-2017.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FHigh-Speed+Rail+Projects&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0


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## neroden

cirdan said:


> In other words, Miami is going to have to be so profitable that it can offset all the costs at Orlando, plus the costs of running a railroad, plus make a profit.
> 
> Is that realistic?


Yes, at least until Miami sinks under the waves. The passenger service is probably roughly a breakeven operation, probably a bit better than breakeven, maybe a bit worse. The value of the real estate in Miami will shoot up when it's connected to Orlando and to to the Orlando airport which has more flights than the Miami Airport IIRC.
It might even make sense to extend it to Tampa just to attract visitors from Tampa to Miami.

If I were them, I'd actually be selectively buying up property along potential station locations on the route to Tampa, probably through a vaguely-named subsidiary.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, Miami is going to have to be so profitable that it can offset all the costs at Orlando, plus the costs of running a railroad, plus make a profit.
> 
> Is that realistic?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, at least until Miami sinks under the waves. The passenger service is probably roughly a breakeven operation, probably a bit better than breakeven, maybe a bit worse. The value of the real estate in Miami will shoot up when it's connected to Orlando and to to the Orlando airport which has more flights than the Miami Airport IIRC.
> It might even make sense to extend it to Tampa just to attract visitors from Tampa to Miami.
> 
> If I were them, I'd actually be selectively buying up property along potential station locations on the route to Tampa, probably through a vaguely-named subsidiary.
Click to expand...

While I would really like to see it extended to Tampa, I doubt they will be able to buy much if any real estate along that route. It is in a highway median, largely through already developed areas. In addition, Brightline seems to prefer to have an express service, so it is possible Tampa would be the only stop. If Tampa Union Station is used, there is some available real estate nearby, although it's urban location will likely make it expensive. While the routing into the station must be figured out, Union Station seems like the logical location to terminate potential future Brightline service. The only areas other than Tampa that I could possibly foresee getting a station on a Tampa extension are Lakeland and near Disney World.


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## Metra Electric Rider

Aren't they more concerned with developing land they already own rather than newly purchased property?


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## Brian_tampa

It's been a while since I posted, but here goes.

To the thought that Jacksonville is guaranteed first expansion city before Tampa, consider this. Maybe the access agreement that AAF signed with FECR was done with the knowledge that Fortress was considering selling FECR to a separate entity and Fortress wanted to protect AAF'S future expansion by signing an agreement with a sister company? On the other hand, AAF has been closely working the past few years with FDOT to preserve the rail ROW in the median of I4 between FL528 near Orlando and downtown Tampa...

Orlando expansion will happen before Jacksonville. As other posters have stated, the project is not doable without the traffic that Orlando will generate. Remember the invester grade report that FECI commissioned back in 2012? That wasn't for nothing folks. They know where the passengers are going to be. It isn't necessarily Miami to Jacksonville, sorry.

@Metra Electric Rider yes, FECI owns alot of land in S Florida and along the FECR. But, I've done research a couple of years ago and can say that AAF/FECI has bought ALOT of additional properties within a mile of their stations in FLL and WPB. FECI is a real estate development company. They aren't going to just sit on what they have.

In regards to Tampa, they will NOT ever use TUS as their terminal. It's hard to gain access to, and given CSX'S recent history with the TECO streetcar crossing, they are very opposed to additional passenger trains on or crossing their line through Ybor City to Lakeland. AAF will build a station closer to I275 and Florida Ave where there is alot of state and city owned empty land. I can foresee some deals made between FECI/AAF and the governments to redevelop that area. It's the last relatively empty part of downtown Tampa left that has easy access to the rail ROW in the median of I4. And the local bus transit center/hub is next door, along with the potential for a future light rail line going west to the airport and Pinellas County and the beaches.

One last observation, on the construction plans for the Orlando segment why is the new AAF right of way referenced with mile markings that show Mile 90+ something at the Orlando airport? And the numbers increase going east! I've always wondered if that meant anything and where exactly would Mile 0 be?


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## Brian_tampa

On a side note, I just read this article in the WPB paper about impacts on traffic and trains caused by Trump's visits to his mansion on Palm Beach island.

http://postonpolitics.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/02/08/president-trump-to-arrive-in-palm-beach-county-during-rush-hour-friday/

Obviously this will impact Brightline as well as FECR for the next 4 years. It already has caused delays for TriRail. Can you imagine closing 8 lane I95 down in both directions during a Friday afternoon rush hour for at least 30 minutes? Wow.... what is Trump thinking? Lol


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Brian_tampa said:


> One last observation, on the construction plans for the Orlando segment why is the new AAF right of way referenced with mile markings that show Mile 90+ something at the Orlando airport? And the numbers increase going east! I've always wondered if that meant anything and where exactly would Mile 0 be?


Considering that FEC is headquartered in the Jacksonville area, that is probably mile 0. Since the tracks will curve away from mile 0 at Cocoa, it makes sense to have the numbers increase rather than decrease.


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## jis

Just a reality check ...

Distance between Jacksonville and Cocoa is 152 miles by road

Distance between Cocoa and Orlando is about 38 miles by road

Distance between Tampa and Orlando Airport is about 84 miles by road

So I have no idea where the 90+ comes from.

Incidentally Cocoa to New Smyrna Beach where FEC has a large establishment is about 52 miles, which added to the 38 miles to OIA brings the number close to 90. Just an observation, nothing more.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> Just a reality check ...
> 
> Distance between Jacksonville and Cocoa is 152 miles by road
> 
> Distance between Cocoa and Orlando is about 38 miles by road
> 
> Distance between Tampa and Orlando Airport is about 84 miles by road
> 
> So I have no idea where the 90+ comes from.
> 
> Incidentally Cocoa to New Smyrna Beach where FEC has a large establishment is about 52 miles, which added to the 38 miles to OIA brings the number close to 90. Just an observation, nothing more.


According to Wikipedia, St. Augustine to Cocoa is 136 miles by rail. That would put OIA at 98 miles. I believe FEC was once headquartered in St. Augustine so it is possible that St. Augustine could be milepost 0.


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## Brian_tampa

On the drawings I'm referring to, the miles increase as the route goes toward Cocoa. That's what I'm confused about. Unless they are assuming tracks to Tampa will be built sometime later. The drawings are in the FEIS.

Edit: drawings not in FEIS, I have them saved somewhere so I will find them. It might have been part of a presentation to the GOAA board.


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## jis

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> According to Wikipedia, St. Augustine to Cocoa is 136 miles by rail. That would put OIA at 98 miles. I believe FEC was once headquartered in St. Augustine so it is possible that St. Augustine could be milepost 0.


Now I am completely confused. If St. Augustine to Cocoa is 136 miles, how would OIA be at 98 miles? Are you sure you have got your geography straight?
Interestingly St. Augustine to Cocoa is 119 miles by I-95. I had no idea that FEC was windy enough between those two points to add 17 additional miles!



Brian_tampa said:


> On the drawings I'm referring to, the miles increase as the route goes toward Cocoa. That's what I'm confused about. Unless they are assuming tracks to Tampa will be built sometime later. The drawings are in the FEIS.


That is mot definitely a very interesting observation!


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia, St. Augustine to Cocoa is 136 miles by rail. That would put OIA at 98 miles. I believe FEC was once headquartered in St. Augustine so it is possible that St. Augustine could be milepost 0.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I am completely confused. If St. Augustine to Cocoa is 136 miles, how would OIA be at 98 miles? Are you sure you have got your geography straight?
> Interestingly St. Augustine to Cocoa is 119 miles by I-95. I had no idea that FEC was windy enough between those two points to add 17 additional miles!
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the drawings I'm referring to, the miles increase as the route goes toward Cocoa. That's what I'm confused about. Unless they are assuming tracks to Tampa will be built sometime later. The drawings are in the FEIS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is mot definitely a very interesting observation!
Click to expand...

I got 98 miles because if Brightline tracks to OIA only connect going south at Cocoa I thought maybe they would count down from Cocoa to Orlando since it is railroad north. That would allow no milepost changes all the way from Orlando to Miami. I realize that Orlando is not 98 miles from St. Augustine. Orlando is 38 miles from milepost 136, making it 98. Basically the mileposts revolve around Cocoa even though it is not Mile 0. I don't know if a railroad has ever designed mileposts in this way or not.


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## jis

The miles are marked from 99 (Orlando Airport Intermodal Center) to 138.5 (Cocoa junction with FEC), and The Cocoa Junction is at about mile 170 of FEC, which is clearly miles from JAX.

So where that 99 to 139 comes from for the East - West track still remains a mystery. The closest I can figure is Tampa Airport to Orlando Airport which is about 92 miles by road. It is conceivable that the feasible high speed rail alignment would be 7 miles longer for some reason.

I guess I will have to ask Rusty about it the next time I speak to him.


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## jis

The owner of FEC Railroad and AAF/Brightline (via FECI) - Fortress Group, was just purchased by the Japanese SoftBank. Impact of this on things like Brightline can only be positive is the general scuttlebutt, since SoftBank has huge amounts of investment money parked waiting to be deployed. The connection between this and the Abe-Trump meetings is also potentially interesting.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/softbank-buy-fortress-investment-3-000453567.html


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## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> The owner of FEC Railroad and AAF/Brightline (via FECI) - Fortress Group, was just purchased by the Japanese SoftBank. Impact of this on things like Brightline can only be positive is the general scuttlebutt, since SoftBank has huge amounts of investment money parked waiting to be deployed. The connection between this and the Abe-Trump meetings is also potentially interesting.
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/softbank-buy-fortress-investment-3-000453567.html



Were YOU dining at Mar-a-Lago that fateful night, JIS?


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## jis

My lips are sealed


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## VentureForth

Well, the Japanese are extremely knowledgeable about integrating retail and railroad, though Softbank only had a stint with railroad communications early in its life.


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## cirdan

This is early days and we don't yet know why Softbank bought Fortress Group and what they want to do with it.

Quite possibly this has nothing whatsoever to do with Brightline and it may not have any effect whatsoever.


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## jis

Article on Brightline in Trains Magazine with some nice photos ...

http://trn.trains.com/photos-videos/2017/02/behind-the-scenes-with-brightline


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## jis

According to reliable source posting on trainroders, the second Brightline train set will leave Sacramento tomorrow (Thursday 3/2/17) and head by the way of Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Jacksonville to the Brightline West Palm beach facility. Most of the move will be on UP until it is handed over to FEC at Jacksonville, with power change happening most likely at Bowden Yard.


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## Anderson

cirdan said:


> This is early days and we don't yet know why Softbank bought Fortress Group and what they want to do with it.
> 
> Quite possibly this has nothing whatsoever to do with Brightline and it may not have any effect whatsoever.


Whether it has anything to do with it or not is a different question than what impact it will have. FIG was, as far as I can tell, comparatively strapped for cash and so their ability to self-finance was limited. As a note, per their last filing period Softbank had about $22bn in cash and equivalents in the bank while FIG never had more than about $400m.


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## chrsjrcj

jis said:


> According to reliable source posting on trainroders, the second Brightline train set will leave Sacramento tomorrow (Thursday 3/2/17) and head by the way of Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Jacksonville to the Brightline West Palm beach facility. Most of the move will be on UP until it is handed over to FEC at Jacksonville, with power change happening most likely at Bowden Yard.


Looks like it won't depart until Monday now.


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## jis

A neat video ...

https://youtu.be/tlS8IsPuC9c


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## jis

Bright Pink, the second consist, is on its way to Florida...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1766080723710350&set=pcb.1345408942186816&type=3&theater


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## Mystic River Dragon

jis said:


> Bright Pink, the second consist, is on its way to Florida...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1766080723710350&set=pcb.1345408942186816&type=3&theater


Beautiful!  And among all this glamour, I'd like to give a thank you to the UP workhorses bringing Brightline across the country  They may not be glamorous, but they are doing a lot of work!.


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## prc

Forgive me for barging in like this, I've never posted here before (I tend to keep my mouth shut and my eyes/ears open)...

Is there any way to tell when this consist will be brought south from Jacksonville? I'm in Melbourne and would love to watch it pass through.

Thanks.


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## jis

prc said:


> Forgive me for barging in like this, I've never posted here before (I tend to keep my mouth shut and my eyes/ears open)...
> 
> Is there any way to tell when this consist will be brought south from Jacksonville? I'm in Melbourne and would love to watch it pass through.
> 
> Thanks.


Not really, other than following reports from on line railfans reporting passing times at various places. The last time there was a report out of JAX when it arrived there.

BTW, greetings from a fellow Melbourne resident here!


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## jis

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/08-brightline-new-ceo


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## chrsjrcj

I think the biggest takeaway from this is that operations are getting close to reality. Mr. Reininger will now focus on Phases 2 and 3 (which appears to be confirmed as Tampa not Jacksonville).


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## jis

He will be fully occupied trying to get Phase II done. There are still some significant political challenges to overcome.


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## Brian_tampa

chrsjrcj said:


> I think the biggest takeaway from this is that operations are getting close to reality. Mr. Reininger will now focus on Phases 2 and 3 (which appears to be confirmed as Tampa not Jacksonville).


Great news for us here in Tampa! I feel vindicated in a sense as I was about the only one who kept saying Tampa would (or should) be next after Orlando. Everyone else thought that Jacksonville was next due to the FECR railway ROW and agreement with AAF. But AAF/FECI is a business out to make money. Tampa offers many more potential passengers to other cities along the AAF system compared with Jacksonville. I must keep referring back to the 2006 Florida State Transportation Planning Report (updated in 2010) that detailed their analysis of travel patterns and included the rail template that AAF is following regarding routes, number of tracks, and even level of service!


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## jis

The Japanese acquisition of The Fortress Group with the Specific purpose of acquisition and development if American Real Estate changes the entire financial picture and strategy substantially. My guess is they would now be willing to actually make substantial real estate acquisitions even where they currently do not have a footprint, and a railroad might come along with it given the progressively more horrid state of the highway system and traffic.

Tampa is the first beneficiary of this change as TFG now has the money to justify the building and operating of that segment without any outside help provided they can get enough real estate to do the typical development around their station.


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## A Voice

Partial service to begin in July:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-start-service-july-between-wpb-and-lauderdale/u251adut2TnzPrHpV0YOiM/


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## jis

The third set has left the factory and is one its way on UP in California.

The second set is due into New Orleans this (Saturday 3/11) evening. What CSX will do after that is unknown.


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## jis

Bright Pink crossing the St. johns River at Jacksonville on its way to Bowden Yard for handover to FEC to West Palm Beach and its AAF home.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10212231182925014&set=gm.1351387444922299&type=3&theater


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## jis

Article on Debbie Mayfield's NIMBY Bill in the Florida Senate....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-mroped-rail-safety-bill-florida-20170319-story.html


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## A Voice

jis said:


> Article on Debbie Mayfield's NIMBY Bill in the Florida Senate....
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-mroped-rail-safety-bill-florida-20170319-story.html


Obviously All Aboard Florida opposes this bill, but they do go a bit over the top in their arguments:



> The collateral damage of this bill for Florida will be no future for passenger rail within the state.





> SB 386 is about killing AAF, and passenger rail in Florida dies alongside.


I know the intent is to obstruct Brightline (not really necessary if it fails on its own...), and I'm not saying the new rules are necessary or appropriate, but what specifically about these regulations does AAF find so onerous?


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## neroden

They're trying to make AAF pay for city roads across their property (not legal, and a seizure) and they're trying to introduce a lot of bureaucratic hassle to prevent the system from being constructed at all.


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## jis

Ferromex is negotiating with the Fortress Investment Group to acquire the FEC Railroad. AS we have discussed here before Fortress has put FECR on the market several months back.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/27-ferromex-negotiating-deal-to-acquire-florida-east-coast-railway


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## CHamilton

jis said:


> Ferromex is negotiating with the Fortress Investment Group to acquire the FEC Railroad. AS we have discussed here before Fortress has put FECR on the market several months back.
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/27-ferromex-negotiating-deal-to-acquire-florida-east-coast-railway


Here's the original Reuters article quoted above.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-floridaeastcoastrailway-m-a-ferromex-idUKKBN16Y297


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## cirdan

jis said:


> He will be fully occupied trying to get Phase II done. There are still some significant political challenges to overcome.


Do you believe Phase II is now a question of when it will get done, or is there still a question of if it will get done?

I don't think the NIMBYs can genuinely stop this project, but they can still bloat costs with special demands and concessions. There comes a point that that bites the business case.


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## CHamilton

Grupo Mexico to acquire Florida East Coast Railway Holdings Corp.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/short_lines_regionals/article/Grupo-Mexico-to-acquire-Florida-East-Coast-Railway-Holdings-Corp--51189


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## Anderson

Can somebody please remind me which of the tangle of companies surrounding FEC this one is and what (if any) role they have in the AAF project?


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## CHamilton

Anderson said:


> Can somebody please remind me which of the tangle of companies surrounding FEC this one is and what (if any) role they have in the AAF project?


All Aboard Florida remains with Fortress after FEC sale

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/28-all-aboard-florida-remains-with-fortress-after-fec-sale


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## chrsjrcj

Anderson said:


> Can somebody please remind me which of the tangle of companies surrounding FEC this one is and what (if any) role they have in the AAF project?



Fortress owned both Florida East Coast Industries (FECI) and Florida East Coast Railway (FECR). FECI and FECR became separate entities under Fortress after the purchase. All Aboard Florida (Brightline) falls under the FECI umbrella. Basically, only the freight trains were sold off. Now, I also believe that the actual railroad ROW is owned by FECI (and remains with them?).

Fortress receives $2.1 bn from the deal. Can these funds be used to expand Brightline to Orlando (and beyond)?

It also appears that the bill to regulate Brightline has stalled in the Florida House- http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-brightline-bill-may-die-in-house-20170328-story.html

I find it encouraging that Tampa's mayor has also spoken out against the bill. All this, plus Mr. Reininger saying Tampa is a definite, makes me believe that Tampa won't be that far behind Orlando.

Of course, maybe I'm reading too much in to all of this.


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## Anderson

Depending on what is "needed" for Jacksonville, I still suspect it's a toss-up as to which of them gets service first: The business case is probably stronger for Tampa (Tampa-Orlando does come off as a strong market, and I suspect that while Tampa-Miami might not be massive, Tampa-Fort Lauderdale/West Palm won't be anything to sneeze at...and adding traffic which discharges at WPB/FLL would actually help with load factors) but you could probably start up something passable to Jacksonville for the cost of installing PTC and re-timing some signals. TBH I figure that both happen in pretty close succession.


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## cirdan

Article from trains here

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/28-all-aboard-florida-remains-with-fortress-after-fec-sale

The article doesn't say much that hasn't alraedy been said on this thread. But one interesting remark can be found towards the end where it says "Brightline is a separate company that has dual ownership of the corridor"

It's the first time I hear of the dual ownership thing. I had previously assumed Brightline just had usage rights.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Please forgive me if I missed it in the fine print somewhere, but who is the other half of the "dual" in dual ownership? I would think that Brightline having a good relationship with them would be crucial.


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## chrsjrcj

I'm quite sure FEC Industries (still with Fortress) owns the ROW.


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## neroden

Sounds like there may be a pretty complicated ownership structure between FECI and FECR now. Anyone want to check the STB website for filings to figure out exactly what the situation is with ownership of ROW, track, signal, power, dispatching rights, freight operating rights, freight operating obligations, passenger operating rights, passenger operating obligations, etc. etc.?


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## Anderson

...why do I think this is going to end up with some very wealthy lawyers down the line?


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## VentureForth

Is there going to be a station planned in Cocoa? Why not have a Phase 1.5 that goes all the way up the coast while they finish the Cocoa-MCO segment?


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## jis

The final station location choice from the three candidate locations presented by Brevard County is imminent. So yes, there will be a station in the Cocoa/Melbourne area. I mention both because the three candidate locations are spread that far apart.

There will be no phase 1.5 doing anything until the service to Orlando is inaugurated according the last pronouncements of Mr. Reninger via his spokesperson Rusty. They ought to know since they run the show.


----------



## jis

The Debbie Maynard bill died an ignominious and well deserved death in the committee.

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/234848-high-speed-rail-regulation-bill-dies-house-committee


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> The final station location choice from the three candidate locations presented by Brevard County is imminent. So yes, there will be a station in the Cocoa/Melbourne area. I mention both because the three candidate locations are spread that far apart.
> 
> There will be no phase 1.5 doing anything until the service to Orlando is inaugurated according the last pronouncements of Mr. Reninger via his spokesperson Rusty. They ought to know since they run the show.


It probably wouldn't hurt to have 2 of the 3 - one in Melbourne and one in Cocoa. Where's the 3rd? I supposed just sort of a 'wish'. Seems like the Orlando segment is delayed, so I would think that getting the portion up to Cocoa/Melbourne (which I'm sure you would appreciate  ) would make the final stretch into Orlando that much smoother.

Have they actually started construction to MCO? Again, my work has blocked just about every site pertinent to Brightline and the FEC.

Looking at Google Street View, it looks like there is a lot of work being done on a people mover on the south side of the airport. Does this mean that there will then be a backup move and a Y to go to Tampa? How inefficient for a "high speed" rail service!


----------



## jis

The station at MCO is past the 50% complete mark in its construction and the construction of the ROW to it on airport property and the Automatic People Mover connection between the North and South Terminals, the South Terminal end of which is at the station.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brightline will approach OIA from the north and exit to the south (where their heavy maintenance facility will be).

The only construction is on the terminal. Track work north of WPB has not started.


----------



## VentureForth

OK - I thought they were going to come in from the South. It makes more sense to come in from the North and that would help the further expansion to Tampa.

Perhaps the terminology "South Terminal" and "North Terminal" are awkward to me. I thought there was only a single terminal with A & B, A serving a North and South satellite and B serving a North and South satellite. Where I see the people mover going is to the South long term parking lot.


----------



## jis

Apparently you either don't read my detailed responses to your questions or have a short memory.

In response to your past questions I have posted a diagram showing the route of the railroad on the airport property, and the fact that the South Terminal is a new terminal that is under construction far removed from the current North Terminal. I guess we can expect to get this same question and confusion from you in another three months again?


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> OK - I thought they were going to come in from the South. It makes more sense to come in from the North and that would help the further expansion to Tampa.
> 
> Perhaps the terminology "South Terminal" and "North Terminal" are awkward to me. I thought there was only a single terminal with A & B, A serving a North and South satellite and B serving a North and South satellite. Where I see the people mover going is to the South long term parking lot.


If you drive out the south end of OIA you'll find a big-ass building being built. Guess what that is


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Wasn't sure where the Brightline station was, but I did take these pictures of the construction at the airport in February onboard a Lynx bus (FastLink 407). I'll do another ride onboard the 407 to take more shots of the construction soon.


----------



## Anderson

Ding! The people mover goes in right behind the "Intermodal Terminal Facility" per the article below.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/02/14/touring-oias-new-intermodal-complex-photos.html


----------



## jis

An article on AAF/Brightline by the Mayor of Cocoa:

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/01/brevard-brightline-station-could-mean-development-jobs/99844848/

There are many of us in Brevard County who utterly reject the nonsensical bill being pushed by Debbie Mayfield to pander to the NIMBYs of Martin and Indian River Counties.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> An article on AAF/Brightline by the Mayor of Cocoa:
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/01/brevard-brightline-station-could-mean-development-jobs/99844848/
> 
> There are many of us in Brevard County who utterly reject the nonsensical bill being pushed by Debbie Mayfield to pander to the NIMBYs of Martin and Indian River Counties.


This verges into politics, but...

Given that district, my opinion (and it being just that, an opinion) is that there needs to be a concerted effort to primary her. The seat is a safe deep red one (she won by close to 2:1) so you're not going to get rid of her in the general election.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Apparently you either don't read my detailed responses to your questions or have a short memory.
> 
> In response to your past questions I have posted a diagram showing the route of the railroad on the airport property, and the fact that the South Terminal is a new terminal that is under construction far removed from the current North Terminal. I guess we can expect to get this same question and confusion from you in another three months again?


Indeed, I missed your response to my query back in January, and, I was not able to see the ppt from September 2015 because it's blocked on my work PC, as are, unfortunately, Cesar LaRock's images from three posts ago.

Thank you for your patience.


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> An article on AAF/Brightline by the Mayor of Cocoa:
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/01/brevard-brightline-station-could-mean-development-jobs/99844848/
> 
> There are many of us in Brevard County who utterly reject the nonsensical bill being pushed by Debbie Mayfield to pander to the NIMBYs of Martin and Indian River Counties.
> 
> 
> 
> This verges into politics, but...
> Given that district, my opinion (and it being just that, an opinion) is that there needs to be a concerted effort to primary her. The seat is a safe deep red one (she won by close to 2:1) so you're not going to get rid of her in the general election.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of Red politicians that support rail transport. Heck, Debbie may even believe in it herself. But she's supporting what her constituents want. Perhaps by a 2:1 margin. Mr. Parrish's piece in Florida Today makes perfect economic sense, and hopefully it will either persuade her people or at least keep them from getting their own stinkin' way.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> An article on AAF/Brightline by the Mayor of Cocoa:
> 
> http://www.floridatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/01/brevard-brightline-station-could-mean-development-jobs/99844848/
> 
> There are many of us in Brevard County who utterly reject the nonsensical bill being pushed by Debbie Mayfield to pander to the NIMBYs of Martin and Indian River Counties.
> 
> 
> 
> This verges into politics, but...
> Given that district, my opinion (and it being just that, an opinion) is that there needs to be a concerted effort to primary her. The seat is a safe deep red one (she won by close to 2:1) so you're not going to get rid of her in the general election.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are plenty of Red politicians that support rail transport. Heck, Debbie may even believe in it herself. But she's supporting what her constituents want. Perhaps by a 2:1 margin. Mr. Parrish's piece in Florida Today makes perfect economic sense, and hopefully it will either persuade her people or at least keep them from getting their own stinkin' way.
Click to expand...

As much as I hate to hit on this, the question isn't "do my voters support X", it is "how much do they care about X" and "in what context can I frame X". Moreover, in the context of the Florida legislature (with its heavy term limits) she's arguably only risking a single far-off re-election for a project that (1) is likely to end up being popular down the line, (2) which quiet inaction would probably not attract much notice, and (3) where she could probably get away with a line to the effect of "Look, I'm not a fan of this project but it isn't the job of the legislature to throw arbitrary roadblocks in the way of a private company using their property legitimately." I _highly_ doubt she was elected solely, or even primarily, on the rail issue.


----------



## jis

I don't know where the 2:1 support for opposing Brightline comes from. It is just a random number perhaps derived from her vote margin and is nonsensical. But again this lune if discussion is a bit off base in this thread I think.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth was, AFAICT, extrapolating. Extrapolation is always dangerous, as we know...

Anyhow, my point was more getting at the fact that this is likely a low-salience issue and I'm hard-pressed to excuse her actions on "representing her constituents" on what is likely a low-salience issue that has a good chance of flipping in the space of 3-4 years, particularly with the presumed likely addition of a station or two between West Palm Beach and Orlando. I've just got a hard time excusing something like this in context...really, a harder time than I do have excusing some of the CAHSR stuff because there I can at least see the reaction to the price tag and mismanagement (apparent and actual) and misrepresentation of the cost from the start.

Edit: To be fair, I've seen surveys which hint at strong opposition in a few of those counties, but I don't recall the methodology or sample sizes.


----------



## jis

If you follow the money and see who funded her, the reason might become a bit more obvious  she is no different from any other politician left or right or center.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Honest, true, and selflessly serving her constituents to the detriment of large corporations and special interest groups?


----------



## VentureForth

Well, my point in extrapolating the margin was to bound the probable limits of the opposition. Again, I don't doubt that there are plenty of NIMBY's who would rather wait for the droll of a 35 MPH freight train fouling the grade crossings that have been there for 100 years than a sleek new 25 second inconvenience of a superfast, sleek, new train. I think that despite the efforts of Ms Debbie, the long term success of Brightline will be well received.

Now - how does Amtrak feel about Brightline stealing market share - not just from Orlando to Miami, but taking the main purpose of the Silver Star away?

Anyone have any cost/speed comparison estimates?

Currently, the Star makes the trip from Miami to Tampa (146 miles) in nearly 6 hours without delay (5 hours, 47 minutes) with fares ranging from $35-$57 (I'm almost upset how cheap folks can ride in FL!).

Miami to Orlando on the Meteor is 5 hours 25 minutes (265 miles) and cost ranges $37-59.

Brightline MIA-TPA will be around 315 miles. Wonder how long it'll take and what the cost will be?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I would suspect that Amtrak would prefer to run a 5-sleeper, 2-diner (or diner/table), 8-coach (16 is the limit, right?) Silver Meteor than the pair of trains.

Actually, I think the route would probably best be served by a Coast line New York - Savannah day train (Palmetto) a Miami - Florence NC day train, and a Washington-Orlando day train, all running coach, business, baggage, and a cafe like the Silver Star's and a night train that ran from New York to Miami (bag, 5 sleepers, diner, table, lounge, 8 coaches) on the Silver Star's schedule to Miami, but skipping Tampa (assuming something else serves Orlando/Tampa).

Then you would have 4 frequencies on the route, one more in total than now. You would triple the frequency between Florence and Orlando, lose no specific service, still have a night train on the only schedule that actually makes sense, and I haven't done the math carefully but I don't think you'd need extra cars.- you might even need less, until your ridership ramps on intermediate traffic due to a more convienent schedule between Florida and other southern states.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

VentureForth said:


> Well, my point in extrapolating the margin was to bound the probable limits of the opposition. Again, I don't doubt that there are plenty of NIMBY's who would rather wait for the droll of a 35 MPH freight train fouling the grade crossings that have been there for 100 years than a sleek new 25 second inconvenience of a superfast, sleek, new train. I think that despite the efforts of Ms Debbie, the long term success of Briteline will be well received.
> 
> Now - how does Amtrak feel about Briteline stealing market share - not just from Orlando to Miami, but taking the main purpose of the Silver Star away?
> 
> Anyone have any cost/speed comparison estimates?
> 
> Currently, the Star makes the trip from Miami to Tampa (146 miles) in nearly 6 hours without delay (5 hours, 47 minutes) with fares ranging from $35-$57 (I'm almost upset how cheap folks can ride in FL!).
> 
> Miami to Orlando on the Meteor is 5 hours 25 minutes (265 miles) and cost ranges $37-59.
> 
> Briteline MIA-TPA will be around 315 miles. Wonder how long it'll take and what the cost will be?


I think Brightline will take away the purpose of the SM more than the SS, even if it goes go Tampa. If Amtrak could get FEC to agree to it, I think it would make sense to operate the SM discharge/recieve only down the FEC (I seriously doubt FEC would allow Amtrak to carry intra-Florida passengers). Then the SM could be the Miami express train and the SS could be the Tampa and Orlando train. The only adjustment that would probably be necessary is to move the SS an hour earlier northbound so it could connect to the CL (I think this should happen even with the current set-up).

As to the Brightline Tampa extension, I doubt it would be more than an hour and a half to Orlando which would put the entire route to Miami at four and a half hours, over an hour faster than Amtrak. It would also stop in the South Florida downtowns and have far more frequencies. The only way Amtrak could compete is if the tickets were priced significantly lower or if Brightline consistently sold out. Also, Tampa to Miami is about 246 miles, not 146.


----------



## Anderson

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my point in extrapolating the margin was to bound the probable limits of the opposition. Again, I don't doubt that there are plenty of NIMBY's who would rather wait for the droll of a 35 MPH freight train fouling the grade crossings that have been there for 100 years than a sleek new 25 second inconvenience of a superfast, sleek, new train. I think that despite the efforts of Ms Debbie, the long term success of Briteline will be well received.
> 
> Now - how does Amtrak feel about Briteline stealing market share - not just from Orlando to Miami, but taking the main purpose of the Silver Star away?
> 
> Anyone have any cost/speed comparison estimates?
> 
> Currently, the Star makes the trip from Miami to Tampa (146 miles) in nearly 6 hours without delay (5 hours, 47 minutes) with fares ranging from $35-$57 (I'm almost upset how cheap folks can ride in FL!).
> 
> Miami to Orlando on the Meteor is 5 hours 25 minutes (265 miles) and cost ranges $37-59.
> 
> Briteline MIA-TPA will be around 315 miles. Wonder how long it'll take and what the cost will be?
> 
> 
> 
> I think Brightline will take away the purpose of the SM more than the SS, even if it goes go Tampa. If Amtrak could get FEC to agree to it, I think it would make sense to operate the SM discharge/recieve only down the FEC (I seriously doubt FEC would allow Amtrak to carry intra-Florida passengers). Then the SM could be the Miami express train and the SS could be the Tampa and Orlando train. The only adjustment that would probably be necessary is to move the SS an hour earlier northbound so it could connect to the CL (I think this should happen even with the current set-up).
> 
> As to the Brightline Tampa extension, I doubt it would be more than an hour and a half to Orlando which would put the entire route to Miami at four and a half hours, over an hour faster than Amtrak. It would also stop in the South Florida downtowns and have far more frequencies. The only way Amtrak could compete is if the tickets were priced significantly lower or if Brightline consistently sold out. Also, Tampa to Miami is about 246 miles, not 146.
Click to expand...

With Brightline, my best guess is that Tampa-Miami will clock in at 3:55-4:00 (give or take a few based on stopping patterns, etc.). Why?

(1) Miami-Orlando is, IIRC, set for 2:55 or so over 240 miles.

(2) Presumng that the alignment from the Orlampa project were to be used, that would be 84 miles. It might be possible to "shave" this by a few miles if you don't turn around and head north to the OCCC...so call it 80-85 miles. That puts a project total at 320-325 miles.

(3) The Orlampa project was projected to cover 84 miles in 64 minutes. On the one hand, that was using faster trains (168 MPH vs 125 MPH); on the other hand, that also had three intermediate stops whereas I suspect Brightline would start with either zero or one. My guess is that the two factors would probably wash or come out slightly in Brightline's favor (the stopping-and-going on the Orlando end of the HSR project looks to have been a real killer...the average speed from OIA-Disney was only 54 MPH, dragging the overall average speed down to about 79 MPH).

Presuming that Brightline could nudge the average speed just over 80 MPH they should be able to run the last leg in about an hour; with 125 MPH trains on a "fresh" corridor that was originally planned for even faster trains, an average speed in the 80-85 MPH range should be doable.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

As to Amtrak on the FEC line, I think there may be a bit more room for nuance depending on the relevant Amtrak timetable. I'll tentatively agree that Brightline probably doesn't want competition, but if Amtrak were running a train through at an awkward hour of the night I don't think they'd mind. Even presuming they get an operation to Jacksonville, it isn't clear what level of frequency they'd be running at. In Brightline's shoes what I'd probably do is allow "local" pax boarding on the northern end subject to Amtrak paying a per-passenger fee and agreeing to not undermine me on prices. I'd actually be tempted to use Amtrak to cover properly "local" service to keep local governments off my back (e.g. I can see the Meteor/Star making about a dozen stops along the way while Brightline only makes 4-5) and possibly help cover some station costs. Basically, I would want (limited) Amtrak service because it's a potential cash cow and if (for example) I can hit Amtrak for $10/passenger plus some sort of track-usage fee and then get some cash off of those passengers on top of that (for parking, in-station revenue, etc.), that's probably a few million dollars in the bank each year for me.


----------



## A Voice

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my point in extrapolating the margin was to bound the probable limits of the opposition. Again, I don't doubt that there are plenty of NIMBY's who would rather wait for the droll of a 35 MPH freight train fouling the grade crossings that have been there for 100 years than a sleek new 25 second inconvenience of a superfast, sleek, new train. I think that despite the efforts of Ms Debbie, the long term success of Briteline will be well received.
> 
> Now - how does Amtrak feel about Briteline stealing market share - not just from Orlando to Miami, but taking the main purpose of the Silver Star away?
> 
> Anyone have any cost/speed comparison estimates?
> 
> Currently, the Star makes the trip from Miami to Tampa (146 miles) in nearly 6 hours without delay (5 hours, 47 minutes) with fares ranging from $35-$57 (I'm almost upset how cheap folks can ride in FL!).
> 
> Miami to Orlando on the Meteor is 5 hours 25 minutes (265 miles) and cost ranges $37-59.
> 
> Briteline MIA-TPA will be around 315 miles. Wonder how long it'll take and what the cost will be?
> 
> 
> 
> I think Brightline will take away the purpose of the SM more than the SS, even if it goes go Tampa. If Amtrak could get FEC to agree to it, I think it would make sense to operate the SM discharge/recieve only down the FEC (I seriously doubt FEC would allow Amtrak to carry intra-Florida passengers). Then the SM could be the Miami express train and the SS could be the Tampa and Orlando train. The only adjustment that would probably be necessary is to move the SS an hour earlier northbound so it could connect to the CL (I think this should happen even with the current set-up).
> 
> As to the Brightline Tampa extension, I doubt it would be more than an hour and a half to Orlando which would put the entire route to Miami at four and a half hours, over an hour faster than Amtrak. It would also stop in the South Florida downtowns and have far more frequencies. The only way Amtrak could compete is if the tickets were priced significantly lower or if Brightline consistently sold out. Also, Tampa to Miami is about 246 miles, not 146.
Click to expand...

Any Amtrak operation over Florida East Coast, both now and prior to Brightline plans, must be done in a manner which preserves (at a minimum) the current level of service to the popular leisure travel market at Orlando. Ideally the service would return to the former model of splitting trains at Jacksonville; There's no longer a Tampa servicing facility, but there is at Sanford (terminate a section in Orlando).

Just thinking out loud, but service to Tampa would seem to be best provided by a section sent down the S-line, and from there terminating at either Miami or Orlando.


----------



## jis

It would be a miracle if there is ever an LD passenger operation through Ocala again. But hey, who knows?


----------



## jis

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-orlando-opposes-brightline-bill-resolution-20170410-story.html


----------



## jis

More on Brightline train delivery. Orange and Green will be delivered together in a few weeks ...

http://gobrightline.com/progress/tale-two-trains-brightorange-train/?utm_source=brightline&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=brightorange_brightgreen&utm_content=cta


----------



## jphjaxfl

It would be nice if Amtrak could have its new cars delivered as efficiently as the Brightline's beautiful new trains


----------



## A Voice

Siemens is going to get that _completed_ BrightGreen train off shop trucks prior to delivery, right?


----------



## MattW

A Voice said:


> Siemens is going to get that _completed_ BrightGreen train off shop trucks prior to delivery, right?


You mean those wouldn't be good for 110mph?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thanks, jis.



jis said:


> More on Brightline train delivery. Orange and Green will be delivered together in a few weeks ...
> 
> http://gobrightline.com/progress/tale-two-trains-brightorange-train/?utm_source=brightline&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=brightorange_brightgreen&utm_content=cta


This info from the Brightline site linked above may be old news to any who follow this project closely. But for the rest of us, a nice summary:



> All of Brightline’s trains are being built by nearly 1,000 employees at Siemens 60-acre rail manufacturing hub in Sacramento, California. To build the coaches, Siemens opened a new 125,000 square foot expansion of its rail manufacturing hub, including a new state of the art welding site. The trains are 100 percent Buy America compliant, utilizing components from more than 40 suppliers across 20+ states. As an example, the guest seats are being manufactured near Chicago, the vestibule doors in Littleton, Colorado and the large windows in Emporia, Virginia.
> 
> Each trainset consists of two diesel-electric locomotives, one on each end of four passenger coaches. These locomotives are Tier IV compliant, meaning that they meet the highest emissions standards set by the federal government.
> 
> The stainless steel passenger coaches are the first to be manufactured by Siemens in the United States. Brightline’s coaches include many innovations and are designed for guest comfort and convenience. These innovations include level boarding, touchless bathrooms, full accessibility, large, comfortable seats, onboard wi-fi, storage for luggage and bicycles and more.


The more American tourists ride these trains, the more people will ask, "Why can't Amtrak have nice trains like this?" Well, Congresscritter, what's the multi-Billion dollar answer?

About $10 Billion for enuff new, additional equipment to add a sleeper and 1 or 2 coaches to every LD train. About 70 more Viewliner IIs; then replace and add to single-level cars, giving the fleet 1,000 coaches and lounges for service east of the Mississippi; replace and add cars to bring the bi-level fleet to about 900 units for the West; more bi-level coaches for corridor services (beyond the current stalled order); and get new locomotives to use all over the country. So a mere $2 Billion per annum for 5 or 6 years to completely re-equip Amtrak.

And at least $75 Billion for upgraded infrastructure for more and better corridor services. At $7.5 Billion a year for 10 years, this amount is about double what was proposed in rail-friendly budgets in recent years.

All my estimates may be on the low side, but with at least $85 Billion, Amtrak could increase its service levels much closer to those of the Brightline.


----------



## cirdan

WoodyinNYC said:


> The more American tourists ride these trains, the more people will ask, "Why can't Amtrak have nice trains like this?" Well, Congresscritter, what's the multi-Billion dollar answer?
> 
> .


But it could equally backfire.

People might think, this is what a private company can do. It looks way nicer than what Amtrak has to offer. So its time to split up and defund Amtrak.

That would be a catastrophe.


----------



## jis

This is way outside the scope of this thread, but I think what is important is to get a national transportation strategy and plan in place that includes passenger rail as an equal participant. Whether the actual implementation is via Amtrak or a collection of state agencies or a mix of private and public is an issue that needs to be dealt with under that broader framework, in order for everything to not be just ad hoc tinkering, which is the case right now.

What would be important within such a strategy would be to keep the Long Distance business within a single entity and fund it adequately. Just like Commuter systems have already been separated out, it is conceivable that intrastate or regional services are handled by an organization separate from the LD one. What is important is to have a common fare instrument and performance KPIs driving a well structured contract between the funding agency and the service providing vendor. At least I do not view protecting the current Amtrak edifice as the highest priority within such a broader scope approach. Keeping Amtrak in its present form alive and well will remain the highest priority however, as long as it is the proxy for a currently absent national strategy for transportation that includes rail as an equal player.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> At least I do not view protecting the current Amtrak edifice as the highest priority within such a broader scope approach. Keeping Amtrak in its present form alive and well will remain the highest priority however, as long as it is the proxy for a currently absent national strategy for transportation that includes rail as an equal player.


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Oh damn.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-airport-train-station-uncertain-20170423-story.html


----------



## Brian_tampa

Caesar La Rock said:


> Oh damn.
> 
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-airport-train-station-uncertain-20170423-story.html


I would not be too concerned as AAF has been saying since last year there will be a 30 month construction schedule for phase 2. And they have been saying lately that phase 2 construction wont begin until after phase 1 is operational. So service to Orlando 30 months from October 2017 puts the start up date sometime spring 2020. They are quietly accumulating all the required permits for phase 2. So the opponents can only stop phase 2 if, and only if, AAF has no other source of funding other than the Private Activity Bonds (PAB's). But Mr. Reininger (Executive Director of FECI, former CEO of AAF) has said that AAF will obtain financing, implying it might not be PAB's.


----------



## jis

I concur with Brian. That article is mostly about difficulties being faced by SunRail. It is not saying anything new about Brightline and is not indicating any schedule slippage, though it is trying mighty hard to imply something bad to make it a better clickbait.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I concur with Brian. That article is mostly about difficulties being faced by SunRail. It is not saying anything new about Brightline and is not indicating any schedule slippage, though it is trying mighty hard to imply something bad to make it a netter clickbait.


True.

And there does not appear to be much synergy between Sunrain and Brightline, unlike the hosting of Tri-rail by FEC in Miami.

I don't think Sunrail happening or not happening will have much impact on Brightline one way or the other.

I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving. But I don't think Sunrail need necessarily be the base of that, or is necessarily the best tool for the job.

If you can do that sort of thing for less with BRT or Maglev or whatever, I would welcome that too.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I concur with Brian. That article is mostly about difficulties being faced by SunRail. It is not saying anything new about Brightline and is not indicating any schedule slippage, though it is trying mighty hard to imply something bad to make it a netter clickbait.
> 
> 
> 
> True.
> And there does not appear to be much synergy between Sunrain and Brightline, unlike the hosting of Tri-rail by FEC in Miami.
> 
> I don't think Sunrail happening or not happening will have much impact on Brightline one way or the other.
> 
> I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving. But I don't think Sunrail need necessarily be the base of that, or is necessarily the best tool for the job.
> 
> If you can do that sort of thing for less with BRT or Maglev or whatever, I would welcome that too.
Click to expand...

The plans call for some sort of monorail or maglev going to International Drive and possibly eventually Disney World as well as SunRail going to downtown and northern suburbs such as Sanford. In order to have a fully developed and effective rail-based transportation system, I believe both are necessary. Whereas one could theoretically extend SunRail along the Maglev route, the costs would be prohibitive to its effectiveness. The same goes for the Maglev on the SunRail corridor, as a heavy rail corridor is in place with stations already in place. However, increased frequencies would be necessary for a SunRail service to the airport. I also believe it makes sense to have all of these systems converge at OIA, as it could serve as a transfer point for all except Amtrak, which would be by far the least trafficked of the trains. I have also heard of plans to have the Maglev/monorail connect to SunRail instead of having SunRail stop at the airport, which could also work. However, I would not prefer this option as the more transfers that are added, the fewer passengers who are willing to ride.


----------



## MARC Rider

_"I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving."_

You've obviously never visited San Antonio, Texas.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The existence of a circumstance is not suggestive of its sanity.


----------



## VentureForth

MARC Rider said:


> _"I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving."_
> 
> You've obviously never visited San Antonio, Texas.


The only alternative to driving in San Antonio is floating down a river.... And it's not attractive.
From Cesar's article:



> Maglev president and CEO, Tony Morris, said last week that his company’s goal is to start train service in late 2019 for the fall convention season.


They're gonna spend $400M in two years without even having a municipally approved plan yet? ROFLOL


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> _"I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving."_
> 
> You've obviously never visited San Antonio, Texas.


Or Austin either!


----------



## jis

Delivery special for Brightline sets three and four is on its way.


----------



## jis

Fort Lauderdale Station ...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/transportation/fl-reg-brightline-station-lauderdale-20170509-story.html

So looks like Brightline will have some amount of Security check before entering the station platform area.


----------



## chrsjrcj

They'll have a screening check for bags. To what extant, I don't know. The whole station will be limited to ticket holders only. They'll have subway style turnstiles where you scan your ticket, before taking the escalator up to the waiting room.


----------



## City of Miami

Bob Dylan said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"I still believe that sooner or later there is going to be a rail-based (or lets call it non-highway, as it could be BRT) urban publc-transportaion system in the Orlando area just because it's just crazy for a multi-centric metro area of that size and significance not to have any attractive alternative to driving."_
> 
> You've obviously never visited San Antonio, Texas.
> 
> 
> 
> Or Austin either!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what either of you is saying since you don't actually say anything  but I lived in both cities for six and a half years without a car (or truck ). Both cities have affordable extensive public transit if one takes the trouble to understand how to use it.


----------



## jis

Brightline - two sets on delivery run on the FEC in Jupiter FL ...


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Now that's a nice looking train!

(was that bridge once fully double tracked?)


----------



## chrsjrcj

Yes, I believe all the drawbridges were once double tracked. The New River bridge in Fort Lauderdale still is.

Surprised this hasn't been posted yet, new photos of the West Palm Beach station: https://therealdeal.com/miami/2017/05/23/brightlines-west-palm-beach-station-nearly-completed-photos/

I drive by it every few days. The parking garage/apartment complex is massive. I can see the two cranes a couple miles away when I'm approaching downtown.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

The station is rather striking - why weren't the tracks roofed as well?

Is the statement about highway infrastructure true or a bit hyped up?


----------



## cirdan

The station looks impressive. I wish them every success with this.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Metra Electric Rider said:


> The station is rather striking - why weren't the tracks roofed as well?
> 
> Is the statement about highway infrastructure true or a bit hyped up?


The traffic through the West Palm Beach to Miami corridor on both I-95 and the Florida Turnpike which is further west but parallels I95 can be extremely congested all hours of the day specially in the winters months. Brightline has been needed for years.


----------



## jis

Congestion on the highway is actually getting pretty bad even north of West Palm beach, all the way to Jupiter and even St. Lucie.

FDOT projects that by 2025 traffic congestion will stretch all the way north to the Melbourne-Palm bay area on I95, even in spite of the frantic addition of a third lane in each direction all the way to Cocoa. Already we have traffic blocked somewhere or the other in Brevard County more than one day a week due to accidents, often fatal, on I-95. Which of course plays havoc on local roads too as clueless people try to find ways around the blockage.


----------



## Palmetto

Florida is one of those states that still thinks they can pave its way to mobility.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Good transportation plans include paved roads. Also tracks and feet. Integrated solutions are best.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Palmetto said:


> Florida is one of those states that still thinks they can pave its way to mobility.


And it's backfiring real quick. I can't walk two miles in either direction without seeing roadside memorials. That's just in Orlando, I heard its worst in South Florida.


----------



## me_little_me

Going to Ft Lauderdale in November on a cruise. We get back to FTL at 7AM but don't want to trust that we can get off and over to the Amtrak station for an 8:30AM Meteor so we'll stay a night in FTL. If Brightline is running, would give us a good chance to take a round trip to Miami to try it out!


----------



## jis

By November Brightline should be running the entire Phase I route between Brightline WPB and Miami Central.


----------



## jis

Caesar La Rock said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Florida is one of those states that still thinks they can pave its way to mobility.
> 
> 
> 
> And it's backfiring real quick. I can't walk two miles in either direction without seeing roadside memorials. That's just in Orlando, I heard its worst in South Florida.
Click to expand...

Yeah. FDOT thinks that their entire participation in the NOL - ORL service development should consist of sending an occasional FOIA tog et access to all documents of the Southern Rail Commission, as if they are holding back anything from the public in the first place. Idiots.


----------



## Anderson

So, are we hearing anything about a start date? They've said July several times and I know they've got several trainsets in possession now (how many do they need to make the MIA-WBP service a go? Three or four?), but I'm getting antsy...I'll make a minor mess of some travel plans in July to be down there if I can, but that also sort-of requires that I know where I need to be and when I need to be there.


----------



## jis

July is only WPB - FLL. MIA is a couple of months later as I recall. Haven't heard anything further about either of the start dates.


----------



## west point

Yes the Jupiter river bridge was double track. In fact at one time most of FEC was double track right hand running. Some track near Jacksonville was single track. No CTC As I recall until after the FEC strike. Plans are the have whole line Miami - Cocoa 2 main tracks bi-directional CTC. Single track CTC with sidings ( spacing unknown ) Cocoa - Orlando


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Yes the Jupiter river bridge was double track. In fact at one time most of FEC was double track right hand running. Some track near Jacksonville was single track. No CTC As I recall until after the FEC strike. Plans are the have whole line Miami - Cocoa 2 main tracks bi-directional CTC. Single track CTC with sidings ( spacing unknown ) Cocoa - Orlando


You need to go and read the AAF EIS more carefully


----------



## jis

Inauguration of service on Brightline between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach is slated for late July, followed by a late August extension of service to Miami Central

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Floridas-Brightline-passeng[email protected]optonline.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews3/13/2017


----------



## VentureForth

Hmmm... Should I try day one of the inaugural service at 46 miles, or wait 'til Miami begins at 71 miles...


----------



## A Voice

VentureForth said:


> Hmmm... Should I try day one of the inaugural service at 46 miles, or wait 'til Miami begins at 71 miles...





VentureForth said:


> Hmmm... Should I try day one of the inaugural service at 46 miles, or wait 'til Miami begins at 71 miles...


What, you're only riding once.....


----------



## VentureForth

A Voice said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... Should I try day one of the inaugural service at 46 miles, or wait 'til Miami begins at 71 miles...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... Should I try day one of the inaugural service at 46 miles, or wait 'til Miami begins at 71 miles...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What, you're only riding once.....
Click to expand...

Lol! Good point!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Inauguration of service on Brightline between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach is slated for late July, followed by a late August extension of service to Miami Central
> 
> http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Floridas-Brightline-passeng[email protected]optonline.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews3/13/2017


Is that basically just to test things a bit more with passengers on board?

I can't see much of a business case for a train not going to Miami.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Inauguration of service on Brightline between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach is slated for late July, followed by a late August extension of service to Miami Central
> 
> http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Floridas-Brightline-passeng[email protected]optonline.com&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews3/13/2017
> 
> 
> 
> Is that basically just to test things a bit more with passengers on board?
> 
> I can't see much of a business case for a train not going to Miami.
Click to expand...

Yes. They even say on the article that there will only be one grand opening in September after MIA-WPB is open. So it's like a soft opening in two phases.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


----------



## Anderson

Frankly, it's smart. They might burn a few hundred thousand dollars running mostly-empty trains but it beats having OBS who are still learning the ropes under real-world conditions on some presumably packed trains at the grand opening.


----------



## Steve4031

I definitely will be making a pilgrimage to Miami to ride the route from Miami to wpb.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I keep wanting to spend a night at the Fontainebleau myself...


----------



## VentureForth

Martin County bowed out of their NIMBY lawsuit. Still claims "Victory".

http://www.wptv.com/news/region-martin-county/martin-county-pulls-out-of-brightline-lawsuit-challenging-phase-2-funding-still-claims-victory


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Martin County bowed out of their NIMBY lawsuit. Still claims "Victory".
> 
> http://www.wptv.com/news/region-martin-county/martin-county-pulls-out-of-brightline-lawsuit-challenging-phase-2-funding-still-claims-victory


They had filed the lawsuit to block the sale of Bonds. AAF decided to withdraw the Bond offering and sold a different set of Bonds that are not being used for anything in Martin County. The lawsuit thus became irrelevant and the judge threw it out. Martin County had a choice to appeal, which they chose not to and withdrew the whole thing instead, since there is no relevance or need for the suit anymore. They have already managed to block the use of Bond money in Martin County and have no standing to challenge the use of Bond money in other counties. so in some sense they did indeed succeed in their limited goal, such as it was. It is yet to be seen how AAF proposes to fund the necessary construction work in Martin County in Phase 2.


----------



## VentureForth

Sounds like a face-saving comment on their part to me. Fact is, they don't want the train. They tried a legal maneuver to prevent funding, hoping it would kill the effort. It didn't. They failed. In all honesty, I'm OK about the whole thing - less public money involved, the better.

I guess the July soft-open was cancelled. Still no word on ticket prices?


----------



## Carolina Special

Sprint is suing All Aboard, claiming $646k in unpaid bills for fiber optic work next to the tracks. Likely not a big deal, although of more personal interest to me.


----------



## jis

I visited the Miami Central station site two weekends back. I would be very pleasantly surprised if it is ready for opening by September.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I'd be pleasantly surprised if WPB to FTL is running by September.


----------



## cirdan

Has testing and staff training commenced yet?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Has testing and staff training commenced yet?


Yes. Started about 6-8 weeks back.


----------



## VentureForth

First fatality and they haven't even started with passengers yet.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/florida/articles/2017-07-25/woman-killed-after-being-struck-by-brightline-train


----------



## Caesar La Rock

http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12354928/all-aboard-florida-has-requested-175b-federal-loan-would-likely-default-opponents-say


----------



## Pere Flyer

Caesar La Rock said:


> http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12354928/all-aboard-florida-has-requested-175b-federal-loan-would-likely-default-opponents-say


 Thank you for sharing this. The fact that neither AAF nor DOT commented and that the opposition groups had several qualms make it sound like speculation with few hard facts. Roping in the President's finances and security and talking crap about AAF? It shows how deep in the mud the opposition groups are willing to go to discredit AAF and the growth of passenger rail in FL.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Pere Flyer said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12354928/all-aboard-florida-has-requested-175b-federal-loan-would-likely-default-opponents-say
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for sharing this. The fact that neither AAF nor DOT commented and that the opposition groups had several qualms make it sound like speculation with few hard facts. Roping in the President's finances and security and talking crap about AAF? It shows how deep in the mud the opposition groups are willing to go to discredit AAF and the growth of passenger rail in FL.
Click to expand...

Honestly, this most recent attack should discredit any credibility CARE had (very little to begin with). Trump's motorcade uses Southern Blvd, direct from the airport to Mar-a-Lago. Southern Blvd is actually grade seperated over both the South Florida Rail Corridor (Tri-Rail/CSX/Amtrak) and the FEC Rwy (Brightline). Not to mention that trains are stopped in the area before, during, and after the motorcade. Now if you want to complain about "bomb trains", your issue is with the freight carrier, not Brightline.

Now on the other hand, Fort Pierce is becoming serious about pursuing a stop. Note that the city never funded any opposition efforts, and I seem to remember St. Lucie County backing down early.

http://www.tcpalm.com/story/opinion/columnists/rich-campbell/2017/07/27/yay-fort-pierce-pursuing-brightline-train-stop-rich-campbell/509444001/


----------



## jis

It is mostly Martin County and to a lesser extent Indian River County that is still being obnoxious.


----------



## me_little_me

So will we be able to be on it?

The latest seems to be near the end of the year. We'll be in Ft. Lauderdale taking a cruise and only have Nov 25th and 26th to try it out as we return via Amtrak on the 27th. We'd sure love to take a spin in it.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> So will we be able to be on it?
> 
> The latest seems to be near the end of the year. We'll be in Ft. Lauderdale taking a cruise and only have Nov 25th and 26th to try it out as we return via Amtrak on the 27th. We'd sure love to take a spin in it.


I have no idea. Hopefully I'll know more about it after 23rd of Sept FECRS Convention which will have a major set of tours and events with Brightline.

My guess, after a quick visit to the construction site of Miami Central Stations, is that Miami Central still has at least a couple more months of construction work to go before it becomes ready for prime time.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> So will we be able to be on it?
> 
> The latest seems to be near the end of the year. We'll be in Ft. Lauderdale taking a cruise and only have Nov 25th and 26th to try it out as we return via Amtrak on the 27th. We'd sure love to take a spin in it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea. Hopefully I'll know more about it after 23rd of Sept FECRS Convention which will have a major set of tours and events with Brightline.
> 
> My guess, after a quick visit to the construction site of Miami Central Stations, is that Miami Central still has at least a couple more months of construction work to go before it becomes ready for prime time.
Click to expand...

Thanks. We'll be happy with FTL to WPB if they decide to open that before Miami is finished.


----------



## VentureForth

So I'm sure this has been discussed already somewhere in the previous 80 pages, but I understand the initial consists will be two locos and four coaches? First class and a diner a part of this? The most important question is, how many coaches can the platforms hold? And, if, say they can only hold 10 max, is there room beyond the platform for the loco's to overhang for a 10+2 consist should demand require it in the future?


----------



## jis

No Diner.

Can't answer the second question for another few weeks. Will know the details after attending the FECRS Annual Conference in Miami third weekend of September.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I would assume an actual diner is not anywhere in the plans, although I assume eventually snack service will become available when the route expands to Orlando or Jax.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Brightline's already got pictures of snacks, but I've been wondering how you could fit even a snack into the time it takes to get, say, from West Palm Beach to Fort Lauderdale. I know we're not used to getting anywhere so fast (on Amtrak) that there's no time for a dining car meal, but no way we can do it on Brightline--this will be completely new territory for us!


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> I would assume an actual diner is not anywhere in the plans, although I assume eventually snack service will become available when the route expands to Orlando or Jax.


That is my understanding. But I will know more after attending the FECRS Annual Meeting the third weekend of Sept. 
For the WPM - MC service there is no food service car.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I think, although I might be wrong, that they were showing pictures of snacks they would hand out to first-class passengers (not a food service car, just an attendant handing out the snacks). But even then, that would be hard to do in a half-hour trip unless they throw the snacks out after you as you detrain  .


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I think, although I might be wrong, that they were showing pictures of snacks they would hand out to first-class passengers (not a food service car, just an attendant handing out the snacks). But even then, that would be hard to do in a half-hour trip unless they throw the snacks out after you as you detrain  .


If they're getting snacks I don't see why the passengers travelling 1 1/2 hours+ on the A train in New York can't also get food service.[emoji12] 
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## Ryan

They can.

Just as soon as NY state decides to pay for the service.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Not to go off topic, but we'll be lucky if the Second Avenue Subway even gets completed in our life time. Although, technically food service for the subway is more or less covered by news stands at select subway stations, if you consider candy and snacks food along with sodas, juice, and water for drinks. It's not exactly glamorous, but it's what the MTA can do at it's current form.


----------



## me_little_me

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think, although I might be wrong, that they were showing pictures of snacks they would hand out to first-class passengers (not a food service car, just an attendant handing out the snacks). But even then, that would be hard to do in a half-hour trip unless they throw the snacks out after you as you detrain  .
> 
> 
> 
> If they're getting snacks I don't see why the passengers travelling 1 1/2 hours+ on the A train in New York can't also get food service.[emoji12]
> Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

As soon as you pay as much for the A train as you will for Brightline, you will get food included.


----------



## jis

Here is the program for the FECRS Annual Convention this coming weekend:

http://mailchi.mp/7a73cf301f3e/fecrs-convention-registration-is-open-178505

Unfortunately the tours are now closed, fully subscribed. We have an entire day of tours covering Brightline, including visit to their WPB Shops including train sets, as well as the WPB Station.

While at it I am acquiring my own head gear, protective eye gear and safety vest, as well as a Convention shirt of course.

Will keep all posted on what I see and learn.

BTW, FECR and AAF have created a jointly owned subsidiary named Florida Dispatch Company, which is taking over all dispatching duties on FECR and AAF trackage.


----------



## jis

Here are some pictures that I took at the Brightline facilities in West Palm Beach.

Brightline rolling stock at their maintenance facility:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214953387373390&set=pcb.10214953390853477&type=3&theater

Brightline West Palm Beach Station:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214969979028171&set=pcb.10214969983468282&type=3&theater

Hopefully the photos are visible to all.


----------



## VentureForth

Very nice! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## jis

Bright red is on its way from California to Florida....

http://gobrightline.com/fifth-brightline-trainset-traveling-cross-country-south-florida/


----------



## MattW

Thanks for the pics Jis, I can now confirm I will never ride brightline. Not going to put up with tsa-style antics.


----------



## bretton88

MattW said:


> Thanks for the pics Jis, I can now confirm I will never ride brightline. Not going to put up with tsa-style antics.


This is starting to become more common for High Speed Services in Europe (thanks to terrorism fears). It's an incredibly painless process, especially compared to TSA. You put your baggage on the belt and pick it up on the other side, you personally don't get checked. Hopefully they make it painless.


----------



## MattW

The caption indicates they're using millimeter wave scanners, no reason to use that technology except on people.


----------



## jis

bretton88 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pics Jis, I can now confirm I will never ride brightline. Not going to put up with tsa-style antics.
> 
> 
> 
> This is starting to become more common for High Speed Services in Europe (thanks to terrorism fears). It's an incredibly painless process, especially compared to TSA. You put your baggage on the belt and pick it up on the other side, you personally don't get checked. Hopefully they make it painless.
Click to expand...

The bags go through standard X-ray scan on the belt. You walk between two innocuous looking posts that are about four and a half to five feet tall and that is the millimeter wave scanner. You can walk through it without emptying your pockets or anything like that. See the photo that I have at West Palm Beach station that has the bag belt in it. The posts next to it is the mm wave scanner. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## MARC Rider

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Brightline's already got pictures of snacks, but I've been wondering how you could fit even a snack into the time it takes to get, say, from West Palm Beach to Fort Lauderdale. I know we're not used to getting anywhere so fast (on Amtrak) that there's no time for a dining car meal, but no way we can do it on Brightline--this will be completely new territory for us!


I have purchased stuff from the cafe car on the Northeast Regional on trips between Washington and Baltimore.

Back in 1975, I used to ride the Merchant's Limited between Philadelphia and New York and was able to have a full sit-down dining car meal served to me while the train was traveling between Trenton and Newark.


----------



## jis

For the initial service there is no cafe car. Any food or drink service will be at seat - possibly cart service.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Caesar La Rock

A few days old, but another victory.

https://therealdeal.com/miami/2017/09/30/treasure-coast-loses-another-bid-to-stop-extension-of-brightline-to-orlando/


----------



## Green Maned Lion

What precisely is the objection of all these Alta kockers?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Very good news to report, it appears that work on phase 2 is about to begin. A permit has been applied for just yesterday to construct storm water structures along the Beachline Expressway SR528 at the Dallas Blvd. Toll plaza.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/10/12/brightline-starts-site-work-for-2b-orlando.html?ana=RSS%26s%3Darticle_search&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bizj_orlando+%28Orlando+Business+Journal%29

"Coral Gables-based All Aboard Florida on Oct. 11 applied for permit that would allow work to begin on Phase 2 of the Miami-to-Orlando passenger train. Construction already is under way on the Miami-to-West Palm Beach portion of the train system."

"All Aboard is seeking the permit so it can begin construction of stormwater treatment swales along the rail corridor and modify existing stormwater ponds at the Dallas Boulevard toll plaza. The project also will involve installation of new fiber optic cable."


----------



## Brian_tampa

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/10/19/exclusive-brightline-to-start-moving-construction.html

More work on phase 2 scheduled to begin soon, but this time at the Orlando airport. Beginning by end of 2017, AAF construction crews will be working on the new station at the airport as well as related track work starting in January. This work is dependent on AAF obtaining a construction permit. From the OBJ news article:

_It looks like the $3.5 billion Miami-to-Orlando rail system soon will start creating its new station at the Orlando International Airport._

_Brightline operator, Coral Gables-based All Aboard Florida, will begin moving construction crews into the airport's new Intermodal Terminal Facility in December, Greater Orlando Aviation Authority COO Stan Thornton told Orlando Business Journal on Oct. 19._

_Then in January, workers will begin interior train station buildout and building a new rail that will connect into the terminal, Thornton said. The project is scheduled for an midyear 2020 completion, he said._


----------



## Scott Orlando

The news I have been dreaming about...

A long while back on this thread there were links to architectural diagrams of the SR528 segment. Those links are dead. Does anyone know links for the architectural schematics for this segment are? Its fascinating and I cant wait to see real progress


----------



## me_little_me

This topic aught to be broken up into three - one until Miami to WPB construction is finished (at which point it will die), one on Brightline operating issues and one on development of the Orlando segment.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Here's a current seven page magazine article with news and October dated progress photos of the project.

http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-oct-privately-funded-high-speed-rail-project-nears-finish/page/


----------



## VentureForth

Been over a month without a post in this thread. Any updates?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Their Facebook post last week said limited service between West Palm and Fort Lauderdale is planned (with an emphasis on planned) to start by the end of December. Should start simulated testing next week for two weeks, and if the stars allign the FRA will give the okay.


----------



## GBNorman

Along with many another at railroad discussion forums, I have followed this saga of All Aboard Florida/Brightline.

I'm not "per se" opposed to this initiative, and even though there are tangible things - shops, rolling stock, and tracks - in place to suggest this initiative will move forth, I remain skeptical.

At first, I held the initiative was a ploy to "fatten the steer" for a sale of the railroad to the State. With the "heap big wampum" the State has invested in maritime ports, particularly the Port of Miami, the State would be a party in interest to assure the FEC would remain an open "gateway" handling the Port's traffic for interchange at JAX to either NS or CSX. I based this assumption knowing that the FEC was "taken private" by FEC Industries with a leveraged buyout. As with any leveraged transaction, if the "going is good" the return on investment is magnified, but if "not so good"; look out!

Public disclosure of FEC Financial Statements is spotty, but 2010 Statements showed the railroad with Operating Income but a Loss after debt service. As the recovery has moved forth subsequent years have surely shown an improvement.

I now readily concede that I was mistaken regarding sale of the FEC to the State. However, both FEC Industries, of which AAF is a subsidiary, and the Railway have been sold to separate foreign interests - Industries to Japanese; Railway to Mexican.

By now, all parties know that substantial outside financing - as in the B's - will be needed to complete the project. Such financing is hardly a "done deal". While the municipalities to the North along the so-called Treasure and Space Coasts, have had little success in the Judiciary blocking the project, thirty two additional trains moving through at 100mph will represent a public nuisance - someone, regardless of how negligent, will get "taken out" at an X-ing. That is a given. There are no plans to provide service to any of these municipalities - the cry "public nuisance without public benefit" will be heard.

The inauguration date continues to be pushed back. True, they were talking about "this year" for their trial Ft Lauderdale-West Palm service, there are only now 28 days left to meet that target. Bet's anyone?

But the biggest new hurdle to me is the sale of Industries/AAF to Japanese and Railway to Mexican. Industries has other things "on the plate" namely how to invest the proceeds from the sale of the railroad. The railroad is in one set of hands and AAF is in another. This becomes analogous to the Amtrak/Class I clash of interests - and AAF has no Federal mandate in a lawful requirement to provide access on which to hang its hat.

No question whatever, the redevelopment of the FEC property at "First and First" is moving ahead with Miami Central complete with rail access. The inaugural service of a Miami-West Palm "Super Shuttle" could well start next year, but really volks, anybody give that a prayer of financial success?

I hold that the full Miami-McCoy (MCO; Orlando Airport) chance of completion is quite nil.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Depends on how you define financial success. If you are talking about a net profit over a reasonable recovery time including all capital and operating expenses, but no ancillary income relating to real estate development or such, you right, damned skippy.

If you are talking direct operating the trains profit, I am unsure.

But include the rest of the venture? The real estate development, and that stuff. Its been nearly a hundred years since Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo lampooned the land swindle that is Florida. And guess what? Plenty of people, even some that are otherwise very intelligent, keep moving to that god forsaken uninhabitable sand spit.

I think all things added up, they are going to do just fine.


----------



## GBNorman

Mr. Lion, Miami Central WILL do just fine - with or without AAF.

Should AAF be limited to a sure-to-fail Miami-West Palm "Super Shuttle", the rail access remains and could easily handle Tri-Rail (also Amtrak; but don't bet on that one) by building a connecting track through the NE quadrant of Iris X-ing, and that's in a low rent industrial neighborhood. I can't think of anything that would be more of a "shot in the arm to their ridership.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The NE connection at Iris is a done deal, and was recently completed. The only thing holding up Tri-Rail is installing compliant PTC on their equipment and (of course) completion of MiamiCentral. I do also agree that we'll likely never see Amtrak on the FEC (at least south of West Palm).

I was walking around downtown West Palm Beach last night, and of course walked by the Brightline station (you can walk right up to the glass now, but of course can't go inside). It really struck me how convenient the station is to the heart of the city. While the WPB to Miami "super shuttle" might not be a smashing success (and WPB to Fort Lauderdale even less so), I do eagerly await Orlando as I think it will be a huge draw for both Brightline (or whatever service takes its place) and the city.


----------



## GBNorman

Thanks Mr. Crs, for the update on the Iris X-ing. To me it appears Tri Rail has simply limped along through its 28 year life - not a loser like the Nashville train, but simply not a "breakthrough".

Serving Downtown Miami could be the game changer.

There is one thing that concerns me; and that is having to answer why was the station at the Airport built if the intent was to serve Downtown Miami and a bus transfer from Metro Transfer would have worked just as well?

To offer off peak hourly service to BOTH the Airport and Downtown would simply be "overservice"; for that matter, so would to offer service along the FEC/Brightline. While the decision made over thirty years ago to route Tri Rail over the SAL (Amtrak) could well have been faulty, it was the decision from which there is "no turning back".


----------



## cirdan

GBNorman said:


> Thanks Mr. Crs, for the update on the Iris X-ing. To me it appears Tri Rail has simply limped along through its 28 year life - not a loser like the Nashville train, but simply not a "breakthrough".
> 
> Serving Downtown Miami could be the game changer.
> 
> There is one thing that concerns me; and that is having to answer why was the station at the Airport built if the intent was to serve Downtown Miami and a bus transfer from Metro Transfer would have worked just as well?
> 
> To offer off peak hourly service to BOTH the Airport and Downtown would simply be "overservice"; for that matter, so would to offer service along the FEC/Brightline. While the decision made over thirty years ago to route Tri Rail over the SAL (Amtrak) could well have been faulty, it was the decision from which there is "no turning back".


I don't know why, but maybe part of the problem was that FEC owned the ROW and wouldn't let Tri Rail run into downtown.

On the other hand, seeing the site of the downtown station was retained intact over all these years and never parcelled out or built on, does suggest that there was some plan in the background that allowed for at least the possibility of passenger trains of some description returning to the site.

Does anybody know?


----------



## jis

GBNorman said:


> But the biggest new hurdle to me is the sale of Industries/AAF to Japanese and Railway to Mexican. Industries has other things "on the plate" namely how to invest the proceeds from the sale of the railroad. The railroad is in one set of hands and AAF is in another. This becomes analogous to the Amtrak/Class I clash of interests - and AAF has no Federal mandate in a lawful requirement to provide access on which to hang its hat.


For what it is worth, I had a chat with the CEO of AAF about this matter. According to what he explained, AAF's rights are substantially protected in the contract that exists between FECR and AAF.

Unlike the situation between Amtrak and the Class Is, FECR does not dispatch the railroad in question any more. There is an AAF/FECR 50/50 jointly owned subsidiary - Florida Dispatching Company, which is in charge of all dispatching on both FECR property and on the new AAF property under construction in Phase II. I was shown extensive plans with full simulation of path diagrams for mixed freight and passenger operation and contingency plans for those times when things break down. I have never seen anything like that even from Amtrak for their owned properties on the NEC.

However, the proof of the pudding as always in eating it, so we will see. But I just wanted to point out that certain assumptions being made here are at variance with reality.

Also the only County that constitutes the "Space Coast" - Brevard County, is in active negotiation with AAF for construction of a station at a site that has been selected in Cocoa/Rockledge, with construction to begin soon after introduction of service to Orlando. So to claim that the County is opposed to AAF is at variance with known facts. Are there a few NIMBYs? Of course there are, specially in the sticks in the deep south part of the county adjacent to Indian River County, where there is significant opposition from even some county officials. The main State level opposer is in the State Senate in the form of Debbie Maynard of Vero Beach, part of whose district includes southern Brevard County too.

Those who are really interested in learning more should join the FECR Society. Their meetings and newsletters provide a treasure trove of quite reliable information both on FECR and AAF. All that one sees in the press is marketing fluff and NIMBY posturing mostly with next to zero technical content by which to judge the viability or lack thereof.



cirdan said:


> I don't know why, but maybe part of the problem was that FEC owned the ROW and wouldn't let Tri Rail run into downtown.
> 
> On the other hand, seeing the site of the downtown station was retained intact over all these years and never parcelled out or built on, does suggest that there was some plan in the background that allowed for at least the possibility of passenger trains of some description returning to the site.
> 
> Does anybody know?


There was no station and no one willing to fund construction of it at that site until the Fortress Group decided that they needed to boost returns from all the downtown property that they own.

Running a service from the FECR to anywhere in Miami would have required much greater amount of public funding and access to a lot of property owned by the FEC even to construct other stations on the route. FECR or its then owners were unwilling to make such available at any reasonable rate. Hence what was built was long the CSX route which eventually CSX was willing to sell off.

It should be noted that AAF and FECR have stated to the County Transportation Planners in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties that if a local service is developed on the FECR property in those two counties, AAF intends to do so before they will let anyone else in. So I doubt that any TriRail will run south of West Palm Beach and north of Miami Central, on FECR property for quite a while yet. Apparently the contract between FECR and AAF gives AAF the first right of refusal for running passenger service on FECR.

The various FEC related outfits, Fortress Group as its latest umbrella incarnation, is about real estate and transportation following the Flagler tradition. I don't think they necessarily knew what they were going to do with the downtown site until they decided to use it for a joint real estate/transportation development. Part of it would have continued to host the link to the Harbor, irrespective of what real estate development they chose for it. I am not sure anyone has systematically recorded what their internal decision making process was. But when they hired Gene Skorpowski it became obvious they were quite serious about rail passenger service.

Incidentally, I had a long chat will Gene at the RPA meeting in Chicago. He had several interesting insights to share, which would probably not be appropriate to discuss in a public forum.


----------



## jis

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1690122501044671&set=gm.1551810341576620&type=3&theater

December 6th it is for starting simulated test running of the schedule. If FRA gives clearance, revenue passenger service can be expected to start in two weeks.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1690122501044671&set=gm.1551810341576620&type=3&theater
> 
> December 6th it is for starting simulated test running of the schedule. If FRA gives clearance, revenue passenger service can be expected to start in two weeks.


Best piece of news in a long time.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this performs.


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## jis

Some more from Brightline:

https://www.facebook.com/GoBrightline/photos/a.1484552041850660.1073741827.1484550728517458/1756683537970841/?type=3&theater

A small fair quote from _Jim Kovalsky_ of _FECRS_:



> _ABOUT BRIGHTLINE SERVICE:_
> 
> PLEASE READ BELOW.
> 
> You've been seeing posts that say Brightline is "starting service". This does NOT MEAN they are carrying passengers yet. At the same time this all part of the process of getting the service running. ALL of these steps must be completed, and they must be completed in order. Every single step is a milestone towards the goal.
> 
> As we've seen over the last couple of years, starting a brand new express passenger service is a complicated endeavor, especially when your opponents resort to fear tactics and outright lies in an attempt stop you.
> 
> What I understand is that over the next couple of weeks you will see Brightline trains running a regular schedule between West Palm and Fort Lauderdale -- but they are not yet open for business. The system has to be proven -- everyone needs practice integrating all of the final pieces together BEFORE passengers are onboard.
> 
> . . . . .


 You can see his entire post on the FECRS page on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/fecrailway/


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## Anderson

Keeping my fingers crossed on this...it looks like I may have an unplanned trip to South Florida in my future. I actually got to snap a picture of one of the trains down in Boca last month.

I know the plan was to open Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach first and then add Miami-Fort Lauderdale sometime (presumably not too long) thereafter...but that was before the unexpected delay (I think we're at about five months?) at the end of the summer. Is there any discussion as to when service into Miami is likely to start?


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Keeping my fingers crossed on this...it looks like I may have an unplanned trip to South Florida in my future. I actually got to snap a picture of one of the trains down in Boca last month.
> 
> I know the plan was to open Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach first and then add Miami-Fort Lauderdale sometime (presumably not too long) thereafter...but that was before the unexpected delay (I think we're at about five months?) at the end of the summer. Is there any discussion as to when service into Miami is likely to start?


No announcment that i am aware of.

And I guess Brightline are playing it cautiously. Nothing worse than trumpeting an opening date and building expectation and then having to backtrack because there is some minor issue holding it up. The naysayers are going to pounce on stories like that and embellish them for all they're worth as it gives credence to their narrative that Brightline is riddled with problems and is going to be an expensive and disruptive white elephant.


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## JRR

Saw the train going by the other day at the Palmetto Park crossing in Boca!

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## jis

http://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2017/12/15/brightline-seems-preparing-begin-phase-2-passenger-rail-which-includes-service-through-treasure-coas/953619001/

Looks like AAF got an FRA loan approved for $1.6 Billion to start work in earnest on Phase 2

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## Woodcut60

Can't wait to visit Florida again and hop on this train. I hope by then that Amtrak has reopened the line New Orleans-Orlando again. That would be nice.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> http://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2017/12/15/brightline-seems-preparing-begin-phase-2-passenger-rail-which-includes-service-through-treasure-coas/953619001/
> 
> Looks like AAF got an FRA loan approved for $1.6 Billion to start work in earnest on Phase 2
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


The article's phrasing was odd...it sounded like they got approved to _apply _for a loan.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2017/12/15/brightline-seems-preparing-begin-phase-2-passenger-rail-which-includes-service-through-treasure-coas/953619001/
> 
> Looks like AAF got an FRA loan approved for $1.6 Billion to start work in earnest on Phase 2
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> The article's phrasing was odd...it sounded like they got approved to _apply _for a loan.
Click to expand...

Maybe they did. i guess applying for such a loan involves jumping through muliple hoops, each one of which is an approval for the next.

And as long as Brightline don't actually have that cash in their hand, it is theoretically possible that there will be some snag and they won't get it. But with every hurdle they clear that probability diminishes.

It's a bit like negotiating with the bank to get a mortgage to purchase a property. They set multiple requirements you have to flufil and documents you have to produce. And with every box you tick that loan becomes more tangible. But nothing is given 100% until the day they actually give it to you.


----------



## jis

Meanwhile they also got approval to sell another one point something billion worth of bonds. For the first tranche of $600 million that they sold, the issue was oversubscribed by a factor of three or so and they got a price better than they had anticipated!

Meanwhile, construction has already started along the Beachline Expressway (State Rte 528). Exits are being built now with flyovers across the AAF ROW, and some water management structures work has been making progress. Actual construction of trackage will being in 1Q2018.

The Terminal C parking Lot adjacent to the Brightline Station at Orlando Airport seems to be on the verge of being put into service together with the APM connecting Terminal C to Terminal A/B. That will ease the parking space crunch at OIA considerably.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Meanwhile they also got approval to sell another one point something billion worth of bonds. For the first tranche of $600 million that they sold, the issue was oversubscribed by a factor of three or so and they got a price better than they had anticipated!
> 
> Meanwhile, construction has already started along the Beachline Expressway (State Rte 528). Exits are being built now with flyovers across the AAF ROW, and some water management structures work has been making progress. Actual construction of trackage will being in 1Q2018.
> 
> The Terminal C parking Lot adjacent to the Brightline Station at Orlando Airport seems to be on the verge of being put into service together with the APM connecting Terminal C to Terminal A/B. That will ease the parking space crunch at OIA considerably.


They haven't received approval from FDFC yet for the remaining portion of the $1.75B allocation that FDFC gave them back in August 2015. In fact the emergency meeting that was to be held today in Jacksonville by the FDFC board was cancelled at AAF's request. Mike Reininger has said in the past that AAF plans on using several sources of funding. So I can see them applying for a RRIF loan and selling more PABs. RRIF will carry a lower interest rate and probably more favorable terms. However, not sure if the FRA has officially re-allocated the $1.15B back to AAF yet.

Yes, the PAB sale was oversold by 3.77X and resulted in a reduction of the interest rate from 5.875% to 5.625%.

I was at the Orlando airport yesterday and used the new parking garage and APM. I believe it opened right before Thanksgiving. I didn't see any activity by AAF, but did spot what I believe will be Brightline's main entrance on level C5 in the beautiful new main hall. It is huge (50ft ceiling and several hundred feet long) and will be extended west to connect with the new Terminal C which is to open in 2020. Parking was very easy. It works well for me as I use SR417 and enter the airport from the south.


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## Brian_tampa

Pictures of the new ITF and APM. Last picture is where I think the Brightline entrance will be, behind the blank overhead sign at what is now a big empty wall which will lead to their check-in and waiting areas. It appears there is also a level C4 they can use as well. The APM does not have level C4, only C3, which is the track level for both AAF and the APM.


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## cirdan

Wow, that terminal certainly looks very nice.

Will the entrance / ticketing / waiting area be shared with Sunrail (if that extension ever gets built) or will they have a separate facility?


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## Green Maned Lion

That is one extremely sterile environment. I hope I never have to visit it.


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## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> That is one extremely sterile environment. I hope I never have to visit it.


Ditto! Looks like an Airport!


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## jis

It is an airport terminal (Terminal C) that this station is attached to.


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm assuming mister Dylan was being sarcastic.


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## jis

As am I


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## frequentflyer

What is phase 2?


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## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Wow, that terminal certainly looks very nice.
> 
> Will the entrance / ticketing / waiting area be shared with Sunrail (if that extension ever gets built) or will they have a separate facility?


If I remember right, Sunrail will have separate station platforms and interior areas. Much like TriRail at Miami Central. I don't believe any Sunrail related infrastructure has been built at the ITF. That would include the approach embankment and bridge over the exit road from the garage.
As to being airport-like, I will take this over Washington DC or Newark, NJ or Penn Station NYC anyday!


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## Brian_tampa

frequentflyer said:


> What is phase 2?


The section between WPB and Orlando, including the main Vehicle Maintenance Facility at the Orlando airport. Also called the North Section in some documents.


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## Green Maned Lion

Brian_tampa said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that terminal certainly looks very nice.
> 
> Will the entrance / ticketing / waiting area be shared with Sunrail (if that extension ever gets built) or will they have a separate facility?
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember right, Sunrail will have separate station platforms and interior areas. Much like TriRail at Miami Central. I don't believe any Sunrail related infrastructure has been built at the ITF. That would include the approach embankment and bridge over the exit road from the garage.
> As to being airport-like, I will take this over Washington DC or Newark, NJ or Penn Station NYC anyday!
Click to expand...

I get NYP, and I can sorta understand WAS. But NWK is one of the most beautiful stations I have ever seen. Whats wrong with you?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Green Maned Lion said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that terminal certainly looks very nice.
> 
> Will the entrance / ticketing / waiting area be shared with Sunrail (if that extension ever gets built) or will they have a separate facility?
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember right, Sunrail will have separate station platforms and interior areas. Much like TriRail at Miami Central. I don't believe any Sunrail related infrastructure has been built at the ITF. That would include the approach embankment and bridge over the exit road from the garage.As to being airport-like, I will take this over Washington DC or Newark, NJ or Penn Station NYC anyday!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I get NYP, and I can sorta understand WAS. But NWK is one of the most beautiful stations I have ever seen. Whats wrong with you?
Click to expand...

The main hall in Newark is very nice looking I agree, but the overall flow within the station is not good and the rest of the station leaves alot to be desired. To get to the train platforms from the waiting room is somewhat of a maze of passageways if you are not familiar with it. When I was there last in 2009, the signage was not the best. Also, and I know this is a local issue, there were alot of homeless people camped out in the station waiting room. Overall, I am responding to comments made saying that the ITF at Orlando is too sterile looking. Based on my experience at Newark I would much prefer the look and layout of the Orlando station.


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## Green Maned Lion

Its not a maze of passageways at all. You can access all the tracks from the hallway leading right off the great hall, and everything is very well labeled. Sterility and open concourses have no geshmack.


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## Brian_tampa

Green Maned Lion said:


> Its not a maze of passageways at all. You can access all the tracks from the hallway leading right off the great hall, and everything is very well labeled. Sterility and open concourses have no geshmack.


Delightful? Guess we will have to agree to disagree lol in my case, I transferred from PATH to both NJT and Amtrak at Newark, perhaps it is more straight forward if boarding NJT/Amtrak directly from the great hall.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that terminal certainly looks very nice.
> 
> Will the entrance / ticketing / waiting area be shared with Sunrail (if that extension ever gets built) or will they have a separate facility?
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember right, Sunrail will have separate station platforms and interior areas. Much like TriRail at Miami Central. I don't believe any Sunrail related infrastructure has been built at the ITF. That would include the approach embankment and bridge over the exit road from the garage.
> As to being airport-like, I will take this over Washington DC or Newark, NJ or Penn Station NYC anyday!
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying.

What makes a good station in my book is that its compact and that waiting and that those airport style long travellators and things are kept to a minimum. If I need to allow half an hour to get to the train, that negates much of the advantage of the train's speed.


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## VentureForth

Will Brightline have open platforms, or kindergarten walks?


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Will Brightline have open platforms, or kindergarten walks?


Open platform. The ticket will have information about exactly where the door closest to you assigned seat will line up. You will be able to just go to that location when the boarding is called, which typically will be well ahead of the arrival.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will Brightline have open platforms, or kindergarten walks?
> 
> 
> 
> Open platform. The ticket will have information about exactly where the door closest to you assigned seat will line up. You will be able to just go to that location when the boarding is called, which typically will be well ahead of the arrival.
Click to expand...

If only Amtrak could figure that out...


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will Brightline have open platforms, or kindergarten walks?
> 
> 
> 
> Open platform. The ticket will have information about exactly where the door closest to you assigned seat will line up. You will be able to just go to that location when the boarding is called, which typically will be well ahead of the arrival.
Click to expand...

But there will still be ticket barriers of some description, right? Or will platforms be genuinely open to all? That makes it easier when you're picking up or seeing off relatives. But the risk is that you also attract panhandlers and such.


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## Ryan

IIRC, ticket barriers and security before you can get to the platform.


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## jis

Ryan said:


> IIRC, ticket barriers and security before you can get to the platform.


Ticket barrier and security before you get to the departure lounge, like at airports. you can go through the security barrier pretty much as long as you have a ticket for a train that day. There is no barrier between the lounges and food stalls and the platform(s).

In effect, the only check of ticket happens at the ticket barrier, like in many European systems. There will be customer service agents available to help anyone that needs help, but there will be no organization of boarding queues and such. Presumably people will learn to read the platform position on the ticket and match it with a similar mark on the platform edge to position themselves by the door closest to their assigned seat before the train arrives and after the boarding is called.



cirdan said:


> But there will still be ticket barriers of some description, right? Or will platforms be genuinely open to all? That makes it easier when you're picking up or seeing off relatives. But the risk is that you also attract panhandlers and such.


No. You have to have a ticket to get to the platform. Of course you could get to the platform by creatively trespassing, but I suspect that if you do that you'd be liable to be charged with trespassing.

Arrivals can be met at a meet and greet area just outside the security/ticket barriers.


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## Steve4031

Similar to the shinkensen system in Japan. The car number was on your ticket. And the car number was on the platform.

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## Acela150

Any ideas on when a service commencement date will come? Along with tickets being available for purchase? I believe they are running test trains on a simulated schedule now.


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## Green Maned Lion

Id like to know. Ive been planning a stay at the Fontainebleau, and I would like to ride that.


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## Anderson

I'd like to know as well, since I'd _like_ to be able to plan to pop down for opening day...

(The only thing I'm not looking forward to is the security horse manure, which I expect to hold in more contempt than airport equivalents, particularly since anyone who wants to cause a "problem" merely needs to get a pickup truck or an SUV full of cement and get it in front of the train somewhere between Miami and either West Palm Beach or Cocoa...at least with airports there's a pretense of limited access to the airplanes at the origin and destination.)


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## A Voice

With less than a week left this year, to even make that deadline, it'll be little more than "in name only".


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## jis

Official start date for West Palm Beach - Fort Lauderdale service has been announced. It is the 8th of January, 2018.

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## Anderson

Well, crap...Magfest doesn't end until that evening. It _would_ be at about the only time I'm hard-locked into being somewhere in the course of about a three-month period.


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## Acela150

I'd expect tickets to go onsale next week. Which to me is baffling. When Acela revenue service was announced ticket sales began about 2 weeks prior to the commencement of service.


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## jis

I am going to hold off myself until service to Miami begins.

I am not really surprised with just one week notice since this is just a preliminary incomplete service.

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## Mystic River Dragon

jis said:


> Official start date for West Palm Beach - Fort Lauderdale service has been announced. It is the 8th of January, 2018.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Just about when we are supposed to get a Nor'easter up here. Drat--I can't go down there this winter because I spent what I would have used for my Florida trip on the cross-country trip to the Gathering instead




.


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## Anderson

You know what? Screw it. If I can, I'll pull the strings I have to so I can make it (I can probably slide a shift around at Magfest or otherwise get it covered). This is the first private-sector intercity train (sorry, Mr. Ellis, but the SNCC doesn't cut it and the Hoosier State was under a Amtrak contract) being run in 35 years and the first new one since the Auto-Train Corporation started in the early 70s.

Does anyone know which end of the route the train is starting from and/or what time they're looking at?


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## jis

They will announce it when they announce info about timetable and ticketing and the new customer web site. Until then hold onto your hats.

I will not be riding it before sometime in February, mainly because I am in India before that. [emoji57]

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----------



## VentureForth

Kinda surprised they can't (won't?) open West Palm to Miami all at once...

Phase I, I.5, II, II.75, etc?


----------



## Anderson

My theory has been that it's a form of a "soft open" so they can work out any OBS-related issues in the first few weeks on low(er) ridership. With that being said, as much as FLL-WPB has been delayed, I'm a little surprised that MIA-FLL and FLL-WPB haven't effectively been rolled together.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> My theory has been that it's a form of a "soft open" so they can work out any OBS-related issues in the first few weeks on low(er) ridership. With that being said, as much as FLL-WPB has been delayed, I'm a little surprised that MIA-FLL and FLL-WPB haven't effectively been rolled together.


I think it's a question of getting the best of both worlds.

The advantage of a soft open is that they can sort out any problems and continue training staff without too many people in the know if anything goes wrong.

But by not opening into Miami until all is perfect, and then when it is, pulling off the opening with a big bang with all the media attention they can get, they can generate a lot of publicity.


----------



## jis

Anyone who has been to Miami Central construction site lately can clearly see why Miami Central is not being inaugurated yet. Construction is simply not completed enough to start service to Miami Central yet.


----------



## VentureForth

So what's the delay at Miami Central? I would figure getting the [existing] rail infrastructure would be the slow point, and that the stations could be completed on time. With the huge delays on the "easy" part of the route, I can't imagine the delays they'll face going on to Orlando.


----------



## jis

Construction of the station building is not complete, unlike the construction of the Orlando station building, which ironically is complete [emoji57]

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----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Construction of the station building is not complete, unlike the construction of the Orlando station building, which ironically is complete [emoji57]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Is that a project overrun, or was it never intended to be complete by this point?


----------



## jis

It is a project overrun caused by various factors including a hurricane or two and a huge political flap about the ramp upto the station. It was intended to be completed in 3CQ17.


----------



## jis

https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/friends-and-family-get-to-test-out-brightline

First ride for invited guests.


----------



## Anderson

Words cannot describe how annoyed I am at this point...tickets still aren't on sale and schedules aren't listed for an initial run that's supposed to happen sometime this week.


----------



## VentureForth

So, while we're waiting, let's hit the water cooler conversation street and review some old topics again...

First, let's compare the two services between Miami and West Palm Beach (Note: Amtrak doesn't allow travel between these two points).

Tri Rail has a scheduled time of between 1 hour and 45 minutes and 1 hour and 55 minutes. Brightline advertises 1 hour: 30 minutes between WPB and FTL and 30 minutes between FTL and MIA. According to the Amtrak timetable upon which steel ribbon Tri Rail plies, it's 43 miles from WPB to FTL, and 22 miles from FTL to MIA. Judging the distance of US-1, it's roughly 42 miles between WPB and FTL, and 26 miles between FTL and MIA. Thus, it takes 1:04 from WPB to FTL and 36 minutes from FTL to MIA.

If Brightline claims 42 miles in 30 minutes, that's 84 mph vs Tri Rail's paltry 40 mph to cover the same distance. I didn't think FEC was going to go faster than 79 mph South of WPB. If that's the case, the MINIMUM time to get from West Palm to Ft Lauderdale on Brightline would be 32 minutes. On both routes, the last 20 miles average between 35-40 mph on each route. Hopefully a refined timetable on BL will spread this more evenly.

Next, Tri-Rail costs $6.90 for the full length. Brighline originally claimed $11 back in 2015, and now I'm seeing price guestimates closer to $16-17. Again, probably worth it for the full route. The price would almost have to be the same, though, between MIA and FTL. More than a buck or two difference would be too much - but of course, it makes a difference if you're trying to get downtown or to the airport.

Another question: Is Tri-Rail still trying to get a train on FEC's line? If so, WHY?

Obviously with the 18 stops Tri-Rail makes vs two on Brightline, the services are geared towards very different markets. It does make one kind of wonder why Amtrak only allows discharging and receiving passengers only from WPB, South.

Finally, I thought that Brightline was going to incorporate shopping centers as part of their station scheme, marrying retail with rail travel. This may be the case in Miami, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of that from what I can see at either of the other two stations. I guess Fort Lauderdale is only a few blocks from the Tarpon River and the park/shopping area there. But I don't see much at West Palm.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Tri-Rail doesnt go to downtown Miami. Thats an additional 20 minute Metrorail ride. If the trip is on a weekend, forget it since Metrorail runs every 30 minutes. Brightline will be a huge benefit for heading to downtown. It should be a nice ride to see Marlins games (err...until they traded away half the team).

Tri-Rail will serve the Miami Brightline station. The city of Miami worked overtime making sure they secured the funds in time. The Iris connection just south of the Metrorail transfer station is complete. The hold up is the completion of the station, and Tri-Rail implementing PTC. www.tri-raildowntownmiamilink.com

From the tentative schedule I saw, the travel time from WPB to Fort Lauderdale was just shy of 40 minutes. Of course, that was before simulated service.

The only extra Brightline development, outside of Miami, is the 10 story luxury apartment complex being built on top of the West Palm Beach station parking garage. The station is also located right next to Clematis street (huge nightlife) and it should be a benifit to the CityPlace shopping district.


----------



## VentureForth

I get that _transferring _from the airport to downtown takes about 20 minutes or so, but end to end, each line is approximately the same distance. It would be a matter of your destination needs. I was under the impression that Tri-Rail wanted to route a whole system on the FEC. The connection is good, though. So, is it Tri-Rail's fault that service to Miami isn't going to start imminently?





Also, the structure above the platform - is that the main air conditioned ticket/office/waiting area? Nice to be able to wait in the sweltering heat and/or rain in comfort.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I dont know the reasoning behind the hold up (beyond what jis has already mentioned). Maybe Ill take a trip down there this week to see how construction is progressing.

As far as Tri-Rail on the rest of the FEC, there is definitely a desire to run on the FEC from WPB north to Palm Beach Gardens (PBG supports this) and from downtown Miami to Aventura in north Dade County, but Brightline has put a moratorium on any further discussions until Brightline to Miami is running.

Yes, the structure above the platform is the main waiting room. Will be quite the railfan spot while waiting for your train.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Finally, I thought that Brightline was going to incorporate shopping centers as part of their station scheme, marrying retail with rail travel. This may be the case in Miami, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of that from what I can see at either of the other two stations. I guess Fort Lauderdale is only a few blocks from the Tarpon River and the park/shopping area there. But I don't see much at West Palm.


Me too. I thought the train was just an enabler for the real estate. So I was expecting them to develop all real estate to the maximum.

But maybe they will do so in a future phase.

Although all the station sites have some potential, Miami is obviously the jewel in the crown in terms of value and potential rental income, so maybe they want to pool their efforts there for now, and come back to the other locations later. If they are smart they will have been queitly buying real estate around the sttaions before the hype sends land value through the roof.


----------



## jis

The main money earner in real estate is Condos and Apartments, not shopping centers. Indeed, in Florida, of the two, shopping centers are a worse crap shoot by a long shot considering how much vacancy is still around outside of the Miami Metroplex. Keep that in mind



Ideally, if I was a real estate developer, I would want someone else to take the risk on shopping malls though I would encourage them to set such up next door to my residential development. That appears to be the route that they are taking at West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale to quite an extent.

Incidentally, I did get invited to the friends and family event on Sunday, bu as it turned out I had other family event engagements in Melbourne that day so I politely declined the invite from Brightline. Given my other commitments, it will be mid February before I will find time to ride Brightline. I simply don;t have any weekday or weekend day free between now and then while I am in this geographical area.


----------



## Bob Dylan

If you were a Real Estate Developer you could run for President!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> If you were a Real Estate Developer you could run for President!


Only if all your projects keep going bankrupt



and need to be bailed out by Russian oligarchs?


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, I thought that Brightline was going to incorporate shopping centers as part of their station scheme, marrying retail with rail travel. This may be the case in Miami, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of that from what I can see at either of the other two stations. I guess Fort Lauderdale is only a few blocks from the Tarpon River and the park/shopping area there. But I don't see much at West Palm.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too. I thought the train was just an enabler for the real estate. So I was expecting them to develop all real estate to the maximum.
> 
> But maybe they will do so in a future phase.
> 
> Although all the station sites have some potential, Miami is obviously the jewel in the crown in terms of value and potential rental income, so maybe they want to pool their efforts there for now, and come back to the other locations later. If they are smart they will have been queitly buying real estate around the sttaions before the hype sends land value through the roof.
Click to expand...

Well, bear in mind that we're looking at what they're doing _now_. It's entirely possible that once things get rolling they'll expand some further development around the non-Miami stations (particularly if they add 2-3 more over time...Cocoa is already on their radar, and it seems quite probable that at least one more will get added on, particularly if they go to Jacksonville as well). Keep in mind that the Miami station, with its skyscrapers, was _not_ cheap to build and there's only so much capital to deploy.

(Also, the proposal was 60 minutes MIA-WPB and 30 MIA-FLL, and 30 FLL-WPB, not 30 MIA-FLL and 90 FLL-WPB).


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> As far as Tri-Rail on the rest of the FEC, there is definitely a desire to run on the FEC from WPB north to Palm Beach Gardens (PBG supports this) and from downtown Miami to Aventura in north Dade County, but Brightline has put a moratorium on any further discussions until Brightline to Miami is running.


Right. AAF has asserted first right of access for all passenger service on FECR. It is part of the contract between FECR and AAF



> Yes, the structure above the platform is the main waiting room. Will be quite the railfan spot while waiting for your train.


Each station has several great railfan spots.

BTW, AFAICT the plan is for a one hour schedule from WPB to Miami Central. Of that the run between WPB and FLL will be something like 35-38 mins with a minute or two stop at FLL

I talked to Jim Kovalsky of FECRS who has been on several scheduled runs, and he has timed the run from WPB to FLL consistently at below 34 mins, so say roughly 75mph start to stop. So it seems that they should have no problem doing WPB to Miami Central in an hour including the stop at FLL. BTW averaging 75 mph with a 79mph top speed is pretty commendable. I wish Amtrak could pull off something even close to that ratio on the middle section of CHI - STL or Porter K'zoo.


----------



## AGM.12

Looking at the plans for the Miami complex, there seems to be a hotel incorporated in it. I would wonder if they could offer vacation packages of hotel room, ticket on Brightline and admission to Disney world or some such special around concerts or sporting events. I'm sure travelers from abroad would find this option attractive.


----------



## Anderson

AGM.12 said:


> Looking at the plans for the Miami complex, there seems to be a hotel incorporated in it. I would wonder if they could offer vacation packages of hotel room, ticket on Brightline and admission to Disney world or some such special around concerts or sporting events. I'm sure travelers from abroad would find this option attractive.


Something like that seems to be implied in the "Business Case" figures that Brightline rolled out. I would expect them to, for example, probably contract with someone to offer tourist packages that would allow you to take the train from Miami/Fort Lauderdale up to Orlando and then catch a bus to one of the parks (WDW, Universal, etc.) for a day trip (or even for a weekend/several days), just as I expect there to be packages that deal with you catching Brightline down to Fort Lauderdale to catch a cruise ship (or to do an "Orlando add-on" to a cruise). Brightline will probably work with third parties for a lot of this (think Amtrak Vacations versus Amtrak) and stick to running their trains for the most part, but I think they're planning to do as much as they can in this respect.


----------



## VentureForth

"No transit system is profitable" is the mantra we keep hearing, right? So who is going to offset the operating costs of Brightline? FECS? Through real estate leases? Since the sale to Softbank, I am really confused who is going to be responsible for Brightline's losses. Didn't the sale essentially separate the real estate from the railroad businesses?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> "No transit system is profitable" is the mantra we keep hearing, right? So who is going to offset the operating costs of Brightline? FECS? Through real estate leases? Since the sale to Softbank, I am really confused who is going to be responsible for Brightline's losses. Didn't the sale essentially separate the real estate from the railroad businesses?


Brightline (AAF) is on the Real State side, and falls under FECI. It is not part of the railroad business. It is part of the hospitality business. FECR is the railroad and logistics business and is now owned by Grupo Mexico.

There nothing called FECS.

AAF and FECR jointly own FDC (Florida Dispatching Company) which dispatches the joint operation of the railroad.

Incidentally, if London Underground Deep Tube Lines were viewed as a separate business within TfL, it is quite profitable. So “No transit system is profitable” is just a convenient slogan in support of a political fight in the US and not necessarily supported by facts anyway.

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## Green Maned Lion

Its no transit SYSTEM is profitable, not no transit LINE. Complete functional systems have sections that are profitable on their own, sections that provide a net boost to profit but are not profitable on their own, and sections that arent profitable but are part of an overall socially useful system.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> Incidentally, if London Underground Deep Tube Lines were viewed as a separate business within TfL, it is quite profitable. So “No transit system is profitable” is just a convenient slogan in support of a political fight in the US and not necessarily supported by facts anyway.


Yeah - I've been citing JR in Japan as examples for years. But their business model includes other transport (busses, ferries), real estate, and retail. Your explanation of binding Brightline with FECI makes sense, so long as their relationship with FECR remains strong. Will FECR build and maintain the track from Cocoa to Orlando? If there won't be a freight component, will it be built for FECI?
Onto a new topic - here are some nice photos posted: https://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/taste-and-see/photos-inside-look-of-the-new-brightline-trains#id0

There was one interviewee who talked about how fast 79 MPH was. Amtrak hits that every day and another 50%+ in the NEC. Does Tri Rail not hit 79?


----------



## jis

Tr-Rail hits 79 momentarily here and there like Amtrak hits 150 for bragging rights.

The special thing about Brightline that people are finding remarkable is that it averages 75mph start to stop between WPB and FLL. that is close to what Amtrak manages on the NE with a few exceptional segments. WPB to Miami Central will average around 72-73mph including a stop. And this is the lower speed segment in the overall Miami - Orlando plan.

Bottom line is no one except railfans care what maximum speed a train hits. What they care about is end to end running times and timetable reliability, which is a known issue even on the NEC and is a serious issue in most other routes that claim to hit all sorts of speeds for a few miles here and there. The TGV or ICE style sustained running at even 79mph, let alone something north of 100 is not very common on the corridors. There are a few segments in the LD network where such happens freight railroads willing.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I would make the case that along with competitive travel times, on time performance means just as much to the general public. They will decide with their money whether or not Brightline succeeds. No matter how excited we as railfans get over maximum speed, or other technical facts, if they can't provide clean, competitive, and on time operations they won't make it.


----------



## chrsjrcj

In my non-expert opinion, the Miami to MCO will come close to an operating profit (if not break even).

In 2006, FDOT prepared a passenger rail plan- www.fdot.gov/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf that AAF seems to be following (at least the coastal route proposal). Phase 1 showed an operating ratio of 1.07, albeit with more stops including Jacksonville and the Orlando Convention Center/I-Drive area.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Why is the newswoman in the video wearing a winter coat and hat when she is in South Florida and it says 53 degrees down in the corner of the screen?






Sorry, just couldn't resist.





Now back to serious technical stuff....


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Why is the newswoman in the video wearing a winter coat and hat when she is in South Florida and it says 53 degrees down in the corner of the screen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, just couldn't resist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now back to serious technical stuff....


53 is COLD in Florida Patty! Penny layers up in Orlando when it gets below 70!!!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Ha! It got to 40 degrees here yesterday, and some people were wearing shorts!





Back to the real topic--any news on when the first passenger run will be? (Their website still says this week, but there's a news article about some mayor down there still discussing a quiet zone with them, so maybe that's the holdup?) Seems odd that they were (or seemed) so organized for so long and are not at this stage.


----------



## jis

The trains are running a full schedules with invited guests and families this week. Departure apparently is at 55 mins past the hour from both ends. I saw the schedule in the invite I got late last week. One needs to RSVP to a specific telephone number to get an invitation ticket.

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## Mystic River Dragon

Oh, good--that is promising. Thanks, jis, for being the messenger for those of us not high up enough in the world to have been invited!


----------



## jis

Almost every rail enthusiast in Florida got an invite, since you just had to be a member in good standing of either FECRS or FRPC.

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## Mystic River Dragon

Another excellent reason to move down there!


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## chrsjrcj

Brightline ticket and schedule information is now available on their website. Service starts Saturday.

gobrightline.com


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> Brightline ticket and schedule information is now available on their website. Service starts Saturday.
> 
> gobrightline.com


That website still needs some work. I tried to make a trial booking but ran into a bug and crashed my browser.


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## chrsjrcj

I was finally able to get it to work. Did everything but go through with purchase a ticket. A few notes:

1) Looks like there is a 10% discount for NARP members, Seniors, and Military

2) After entering passenger information, it takes you to the payment page. If you look at the top of the screen, you can go back and select seats.

3) The direction of travel on the seat selection page may be wrong. The Select coach is at the south end, but it looks like it displays it at the north end. Of course, I could be looking at it wrong.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline ticket and schedule information is now available on their website. Service starts Saturday.
> 
> gobrightline.com
> 
> 
> 
> That website still needs some work. I tried to make a trial booking but ran into a bug and crashed my browser.
Click to expand...

Browsers should really not crash. Time to file a bug report to the purveyors of the browser too I am afraid.


----------



## VentureForth

Yeah - It opens for me, and the site crashes when I try to pull in reservation request. I expect a few bugs today. Seems to be just a a teaser shell of a site.

I'm most interested in initial fares...

Interestingly, on the schedules pages, there is a link (inactive, of course) "To track an actual train". I dunno about others, but this seems to indicate a very low expectation to ontime service. Just more typical "American style railroading".


----------



## cirdan

Interesting that journey time is 40 minutes rather than the announced 30 minutes. I wonder if this be tightened up later, or whether the 30 minutes announced were more a ballpark sort of estimate?

Also interesting that the schedule appears to be houly throughout the day, with only two (consecutive) turns missing in the early afternnon.

Lunch break for the operating staff maybe?


----------



## jis

Yup. Heavy on graphics, but light on functionality that actually works, at present, for sure. Though, the basic functionality of purchasing tickets and selecting seats works fine.

It does crash Firefox under certain circumstances. but then many things crash Firefox these days, even when it is not in one of its memory leak cycles, which sometimes brings it to a standstill - often triggered by Facebook!

I doubt the WPB - FLL running time will ever be less than 33 minutes or so, since that would require running faster than the speed limit. The schedule time from WPB to Miami Central I believe will be one hour, when that starts up.

The schedule is currently hourly on weekdays, except the two turns midday that are missing, and every 90 minutes on weekends.

The fare is $15 Select, $10 Smart one way irrespective of day of journey.


----------



## Palmetto

They've acknowledged the problems with accessibility by a post on Facebook.


----------



## VentureForth

There are a lot of available seats on the trains tomorrow.....

But holy crap! Hotels are from $150+++ EXPENSIVE for a Red Roof Inn!


----------



## chrsjrcj

It looks like Brightline CEO Dave Howard is out, and COO Patrick Goddard is now President and COO. This news flew under the radar.

https://gobrightline.com/about-us/



> The private rail service also announced yet another leadership change. COO Patrick Goddard will take over as president, replacing former sports executive Dave Howard, who joined the company in March as CEO. Howard replaced Mike Reininger, who became executive director of Brightline parent FECI.
> 
> "As we launch this new service, Patrick Goddard will lead Brightline as the President and COO. Dave Howard was instrumental over the past year in transforming the company into the vibrant operation you see here today," said a Brightline spokesman via a statement. Howard is no longer with the company, he said.


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article194068174.html


----------



## Anderson

The good news: I'm on the first train (WPB-FLL, 8:00 AM on Saturday) and the ticket was $13.50 (really not a bad deal for a 2-1 seat).

The bad news: Now I need to get down _to_ Florida to take that train...which is presently involving a horribly-delayed JetBlah flight (you know it's bad when I'm thinking "I should have just flown American...").


----------



## Palmetto

I thought tickets were either $15 or $10, depending on the class of service. And Jet Blue was just given the dubious honor of being the worst airline in the country by the WSJ, if you can believe that.


----------



## chrsjrcj

POTUS is coming to town this evening. If you're flying into PBIA, that certainly doesn't help. Also be wary of the traffic on Southern.

Of course, if there are any movements from Mar-a-lago to the Trump Golf Course this weekend, Brightline, I-95, Tri-Rail, side streets all stop until the motorcade passes. It will be interesting to see if there is any interference on the 1st day of service.


----------



## me_little_me

They want your date of birth? I couldn't see any way around that.


----------



## GBNorman

OK everybody; the AAF site appears to be "up and running" and I have taken the occasion to plot out an AAF joyride for Sunday January 28:

Station----------Time-- -Carrier

Arsht Center-----910A----Metro Mover
Govt Center------925
-----------------934-----Metro Rail
Airport----------948
----------------1017-----Tri Rail
Ft Lauderdale---1105
FTL AAF Stn-----1225P----AAF
WPB AAF----------105
-----------------200
FTL AAF Stn------240
Ft Lauderdale-- -356-----Tri Rail
Airport----------450
-----------------516-----Metro Rail
Govt Center------531
-----------------545--- -Metro Mover
Arsht Center-----600P

Nine hours on my only free day; tempting if I were more the railfan; otherwise "too much".


----------



## Anderson

I flew into FLL. My flight was about an hour and a half late. Mom and Dad are going to drive me to the WPB station in the morning and then pick me up from the one at FLL (we're going to time how much longer it takes them to get to FLL than it takes the train), I'm going to take the train, and then I'm on an early-afternoon flight home.

JetBlah's Mint product is amazing; otherwise, they really just specialize at "not sucking in coach" (and if the prices hadn't been in walk-up nosebleed territory, I'd rather have been up front on AA or DL than anywhere on a mid-haul B6 flight).


----------



## Caesar La Rock

This didn't take long.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Woman-Struck-Killed-by-Brightline-High-Speed-Train-in-Boynton-Beach-469074483.html


----------



## Palmetto

This is becoming a daily event in Florida, it seems.


----------



## VentureForth

Are you onboard, Anderson?



Palmetto said:


> This is becoming a daily event in Florida, it seems.


Meanwhile, on the left side of the state, a man was attacked by a bear.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I too was on the first run, round trip. Bright Red both ways. Light load in the Smart coaches, but it looked like the Select coach was sold out. I clocked us 35 minutes from end to end both ways.

I didnt see an advantage to Select for such a smart trip, but maybe when Miami or Orlando happens it will be worth it.

The security check point is not invasive at all, and does not compare to entering a sporting event or concert. You simply walk through the waist high posts. No taking anything out of your pockets. If youre not carrying a bag, youd probably wouldnt even notice you went through it.


----------



## Anderson

@Chriscrj: I was onboard, but I was up in Select with my parents. It was an extra $4.50/seat each way, and the mix of lounge access and a set of free drinks did make it worthwhile to me. The nicer seats helped, too.

I'll concur with your comments about the security checkpoint, but it really raises the question of "Why bother?" at some point. I presume that the posts could pick up a gun or a large explosive, but I'm not even sure what else they'd catch.

I checked the run on my phone...we got up to about 80 (the GPS said 83 MPH once each way, but I think that's noise) and the average speed each way was about 72 MPH...so I figure it'll probably end up being around 70 MPH West Palm-Miami including the Fort Lauderdale stop. One thing I can't recall is if they intended to have top speeds at 79 or 90 on the section north of Fort Lauderdale (I don't recall whether 90 was talked about at one time or another). I know they're gunning for 110 on the FEC main and 125 on the Orlando-Cocoa segment.

Still, 35 minutes end-to-end is _amazing_ (it's 42 miles or thereabouts) and I think once they extend to Miami they'll be able to bump fares up with higher load factors.


----------



## Pere Flyer

Pardon me if I sound like a fool. Does Brightline now have exclusive ROW on its routes? (i.e. no freights or Amtrak?)

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----------



## me_little_me

Caesar La Rock said:


> This didn't take long.
> 
> https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Woman-Struck-Killed-by-Brightline-High-Speed-Train-in-Boynton-Beach-469074483.html


Weak story. Another place mentioned it was the third person to be killed by a Brightline train, including one that was deemed to be a suicide. The article mentioned four died in separate incidents before Tri-rai started up. I guess there are those that are so desperate to be first, they want to be first at anything.

We are all born ignorant. Some die stupid. Sad for her family and friends as well as the crew and first responders.


----------



## AGM.12

I am curious if any Amtrak officials, maybe Mr. Anderson himself will sample this ride? Perhaps DOT people from North Carolina, Virginia, and other states that support regional passenger rail might wish to see for themselves what kind of service Brightline offers. It may give them ideas going forward.


----------



## Anderson

I heard some discussion that at least some folks from NC came down to ride the "VIP" trains earlier in the week for just those reasons.


----------



## me_little_me

Anderson said:


> I heard some discussion that at least some folks from NC came down to ride the "VIP" trains earlier in the week for just those reasons.


If NC asked CSX to run a similar train, it would be called "All night line".


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard some discussion that at least some folks from NC came down to ride the "VIP" trains earlier in the week for just those reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> If NC asked CSX to run a similar train, it would be called "All night line".
Click to expand...

Why? [emoji848]

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## cirdan

Pere Flyer said:


> Pardon me if I sound like a fool. Does Brightline now have exclusive ROW on its routes? (i.e. no freights or Amtrak?)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


The track Brightline uses is a different one than Amtrak uses. But there are freights on that line.


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## VentureForth

Pere Flyer said:


> Pardon me if I sound like a fool. Does Brightline now have exclusive ROW on its routes? (i.e. no freights or Amtrak)


Not at all. This entire venture was originated by the Florida East Coast railroad, using their own money, using their real estate and tracks. Now, there's been some shakeup in the parent company, but they all seem to be cooperating with each other. There are freight trains, but no Amtrak (though Amtrak probably wish otherwise).

In other words, FEC as a whole will be responsible for their own success.


----------



## VentureForth

me_little_me said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard some discussion that at least some folks from NC came down to ride the "VIP" trains earlier in the week for just those reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> If NC asked CSX to run a similar train, it would be called "All night line".
Click to expand...

NC runs a tight system for a government co-op with Amtrak. And most of their track is on their own ROW purchased from NS.


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## VentureForth

I know that these have been discussed before, but I'd like to bring these up again.

First of all, it seems like having two locomotives is good for redundancy but the extra weight leads to extra fuel consumption that is unnecessary. I will say though that the consists look very sharp and homogeneous unlike other diesel locomotive hauling sets. Any comments on that?

Also, how much longer can the consists grow? Is there room that if there is ever the need for the platform to hold ALL passenger cars only that the locomotives and perhaps the snack car can "hang off the ends" of the platform?

It seemed from the just the couple of videos that I saw that the interest and ridership seemed particularly low. Not a lot in the news other than that lady getting herself killed, and the trains were hardly "sellouts".


----------



## PRR 60

This post got lost in the approval system. Apologies to GBNorman.



GBNorman said:


> OK everybody; the AAF site appears to be "up and running" and I have taken the occasion to plot out an AAF joyride for Sunday January 28:
> 
> Station----------Time-- -Carrier
> 
> Arsht Center-----910A----Metro Mover
> Govt Center------925
> -----------------934-----Metro Rail
> Airport----------948
> ----------------1017-----Tri Rail
> Ft Lauderdale---1105
> FTL AAF Stn-----1225P----AAF
> WPB AAF----------105
> -----------------200
> FTL AAF Stn------240
> Ft Lauderdale-- -356-----Tri Rail
> Airport----------450
> -----------------516-----Metro Rail
> Govt Center------531
> -----------------545--- -Metro Mover
> Arsht Center-----600P
> 
> Nine hours on my only free day; tempting if I were more the railfan; otherwise "too much".


----------



## VentureForth

Seems like Brightline's social media presence is anemic at best. Really - no real new posts since the beginning of service. There is more news about the lady who got herself killed while trespassing than about opening day.

If they can't be excited, how long can our excitement last?

There is one youtube video that's "ok" showing the stations and the ride. I tried to make it down there, but just couldn't pull it off. 6 hours is a long way to drive, and with the MLK weekend, hotels were expensive.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> I know that these have been discussed before, but I'd like to bring these up again.
> 
> First of all, it seems like having two locomotives is good for redundancy but the extra weight leads to extra fuel consumption that is unnecessary. I will say though that the consists look very sharp and homogeneous unlike other diesel locomotive hauling sets. Any comments on that?
> 
> Also, how much longer can the consists grow? Is there room that if there is ever the need for the platform to hold ALL passenger cars only that the locomotives and perhaps the snack car can "hang off the ends" of the platform?
> 
> It seemed from the just the couple of videos that I saw that the interest and ridership seemed particularly low. Not a lot in the news other than that lady getting herself killed, and the trains were hardly "sellouts".


Having two locomotives is potentially more costly in terms of extra weight needing to be moved (although you need to factor in that if you had a single locomotive it would probably need to be more powerful and thus heavier).

Also, unless you have a cab car, you would need to switch the consist around at the end of the trip. The layout in Miami doesn't allow for that, and I think this is by design as they wanted to optimize the commercial space.

I don't know if train lengths will ever outgrow platform lengths. If ridership were to hit such heights, it would probably be better actually to run more trains than to run longer trains.

Maybe also the next generation of Brightline trains will be dmus rather than locomotives and cars, thus providing more capacity for the same train length.

I don't think it will be easy to extend the platforms at Miami as at one end there is a building in the way and at the other there is a viaduct. Of course with sufficient money, anything is possible.


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## chrsjrcj

I believe it has been discussed here before, but the 2 locomotives are for when service to Orlando begins. This will allow the longer consists to reach speeds of 110+ mph, like is done in Michigan.

The select service has been selling out almost every trip, and I heard one of the afternoon trains were completely sold out yesterday. The WPB to FTL market is small. Most of the riders are just trying out the new train service. When things settle down and Miami service begins, we'll get a much better picture on ridership. Even then, Orlando will be the money maker.


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## VentureForth

Yes - it's been discussed here before, but unfortunately this site lacks a quality search function. Again, aesthetically, the consist rivals the Acela. I appreciate the redundancy, and perhaps the real answer is for the higher speed to Orlando. But were talking practically zero grade (even when MIA to ORL is fully operational) and a six to 10 car train - hardly something these 4,400 HP engines would be phased by. I would have probably opt't for a cab car (but one that was identical to the loco, not like the Bombardier ones). That being said, there is stability realized whenever a train is pulled rather than pushed. Would be interesting to know if only the lead loco in each direction is actually the driver.

FWIW, the New Mexico Rail Runner Express only uses one 3,600 HP MP36PH 3C (which has a separate HEP engine), and it has considerable grades, albiet shorter consists. It maxes out at 79 MPH.

According to Wikipedia, they only plan to expand the five coaches to a maximum of seven. If this thing takes off, that could be a bit short sighted.

I'm glad to hear that there was excitement on site. Wish I could have been there!


----------



## chrsjrcj

My guess is they want some redundancy with the two locomotives, especially once Orlando happens and there is a 180 mile gap between the Orlando station and West Palm Beach station. I believe both locos are powered up, even for the WPB to FTL trip. I figured they'd just power up one loco and have the other act as a control unit, but these guys have decades of experience compared to my 0




. That said, the train really takes off when you leave the station.

I agree aesthetically it does compare to the Acela, and even the entire experience as a whole compares to riding the Acela (minus the hot meals!).


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Pere Flyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon me if I sound like a fool. Does Brightline now have exclusive ROW on its routes? (i.e. no freights or Amtrak)
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. This entire venture was originated by the Florida East Coast railroad, using their own money, using their real estate and tracks. Now, there's been some shakeup in the parent company, but they all seem to be cooperating with each other. There are freight trains, but no Amtrak (though Amtrak probably wish otherwise).
> In other words, FEC as a whole will be responsible for their own success.
Click to expand...

Just to set the record straight again ... Actually Brightline was conceived by Florida East Coast Industries, with the blessing of their owner Fortress Group, which also happened then to own Florida East Coast Railroad, but does not anymore, and not Florida East Coast Railroad.
There currently is no FEC as a whole. FEC Railroad is owned by Grupo Mexico. The Fortress Group is owned by Softbank, and hence so is FECI and AAF of which Brightline is a dba. There are established contracts between FECR and AAF enabling operation of both AAF passenger trains and FECR freight trains on FECR property with enhancements to it that are owned by AAF. Dispatching of the railroad both the existing FECR and any enhancements made by AAF, including new exclusive passenger trackage between Cocoa-Rockledge and Orlando Airport is being and will be done by the Flroida Dispatching Company which is an equally jointly owned subsidiary of FECR and AAF.

AAF and FECR have to stand individually on their own and succeed or fail. I understand there are all sorts of exception clauses in their contracts to cover for cases where one side screws up etc., but have no clue what the details are.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> Yes - it's been discussed here before, but unfortunately this site lacks a quality search function. Again, aesthetically, the consist rivals the Acela. I appreciate the redundancy, and perhaps the real answer is for the higher speed to Orlando. But were talking practically zero grade (even when MIA to ORL is fully operational) and a six to 10 car train - hardly something these 4,400 HP engines would be phased by. I would have probably opt't for a cab car (but one that was identical to the loco, not like the Bombardier ones). That being said, there is stability realized whenever a train is pulled rather than pushed. Would be interesting to know if only the lead loco in each direction is actually the driver.
> 
> FWIW, the New Mexico Rail Runner Express only uses one 3,600 HP MP36PH 3C (which has a separate HEP engine), and it has considerable grades, albiet shorter consists. It maxes out at 79 MPH.
> 
> According to Wikipedia, they only plan to expand the five coaches to a maximum of seven. If this thing takes off, that could be a bit short sighted.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that there was excitement on site. Wish I could have been there!


They only have "plans" to extend the trains to 7 coaches, but that's on the basis of the existing car order (4 cars at the moment, 5 when they extend to Miami, and 7 when they extend to Orlando). IIRC the station platforms are set up to accommodate 9-car trains (which is a reasonable maximum in the near term; really, the fact that we often end up talking about Regionals [1] needing to go to 10+ cars [2] outside of peak-of-the-peak periods is arguably a symptom of capacity problems and not a good sign...ideally you'd probably want to see Amtrak adding additional trains to cover that capacity since doing so would offer some mix of added customer flexibility (and thus induced demand) and added operational flexibility (e.g. slipping another station or two onto a few trains' timecards)).

Do remember that it is very likely that if the service to Orlando is successful enough to make them want to push for even longer trains, they'd probably be moving _very_ quickly to extend service to Jacksonville...and that right there gets you an extra slug of trains between Miami and Cocoa to move capacity onto. Stuffing a passing siding or some limited double-tracking onto the Cocoa-Orlando segment would probably also not be the toughest thing in the world, either, so simply pushing up to two TPH at peak hours between Orlando and Miami (or between West Palm Beach and Miami) probably wouldn't take _too_ much longer than it would take to order and take delivery on a few new trainsets. Do remember that in their wrangling with Tri-Rail they wanted any Tri-Rail service to presume that Brightline would use up to four trains per hour (IIRC the number was 64 daily round-trips), so this _is_ something they've considered.

In some wild scenario where Brightline service is swamping four TPH worth of capacity, I _very_ strongly suspect that all of the stations save for Miami could probably have their platforms extended to 11-12 cars without an extreme amount of engineering being needed. Miami is only complicated because the platforms are something like 4-5 stories above street level. However, the levels of ridership required to achieve this would be stunning. [2]

[1] Not necessarily LD trains, which are their own complicated kettle of fish and which have reasons to be longer.

[2] And here I'm specifically referring to cars in the size range of a "standard" Amfleet, Horizon, etc. and in use on an intercity, not commuter, run. If you're looking at Talgos or something like that, you'd expect a higher car count, while commuter runs have their own quirks and there are often reasons to let those trains be a bit longer.

[3] Ok, going with the current equipment you have 49 seats in the Select carriage and 66 in each Smart carriage. Presuming that a 9-car train would have two Select carriages (2*49=98), I'm going to also presume 6 "regular" Smart carriages (6*66=396) plus the ninth carriage having reduced capacity due to some sort of food service station (probably not a full cafe). Let's figure you get 26 seats out of the food carriage (losing 40 to food service space), though I could easily see getting 46 seats out of it (or even getting a full seventh carriage and the food service space coming out of the second Select carriage...this is what you have on Great Western over in the UK, by the way). So you've got 520-540 seats per train. Four TPH in each direction gives 4160-4320 seats per hour...and overall capacity depends on just how many hours you run at those levels. Six hours at those levels and ten hours at half of them gives somewhere around 45,000 seats per day. If you're going with that on weekdays and two TPH service on other days (I'm presuming 250 "standard" weekdays and the remaining 115 days as "standard" weekends), you'd have 15.27m seats per year and you'd probably be looking at overall ridership in the range of 10-15m riders per year (remember, you've got a number of station pairs to work with here, so there's going to be some seat turnover). Considering that the current projections hover in the range of roughly 3-5m riders per year if everything is running smoothly, I think we're a decent distance off from that...but truth be told, if this were paired with Tri-Rail service, improved connections at the stations, and perhaps half of those trains making a few more stops I could see it in the long run.


----------



## daybeers

Very interesting post, Anderson! Thanks for the detail. Also, I believe you meant to put [3] after your third paragraph instead of [2].

As for the number of engines per trainset, you would think it would be more cost-effective and fuel-efficient to only run one per trainset, but maybe they decided to go with two because Siemens was already pumping out the Chargers and passenger cars but didn't have an assembly line for cab cars? I could be completely off base: I'm just brainstorming.

On another note, does anyone know anything about the areas around the stations? How close/far are they from restaurants, local attractions, hotels, etc? Walking distance, or will there have to be a shuttle? I'm just wondering if this can also be used for folks wanting to, say, have dinner in another city.

Also, I was just looking on Brightline's website and it looks like they're listing 40 minute running times instead of the claimed 30, which is funnily displayed right above the schedules. I recall first-hand accounts said actual times were 33-35 minutes?


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## VentureForth

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that the 30-30 from West Palm Beach to Miami is a marketing ploy and a Perry dumb one at that. More likely, 35-25 or possibly 40-20. Just didn't look good on a billboard I guess.

But since most folks probably don't care about West Palm to Ft Lauderdale, I suppose the 60 minutes to Miami is the takeaway.

Still, frustrating to numbers people.

Totally different question: are test trains running to Miami? Is the station the only holdup?


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Totally different question: are test trains running to Miami? Is the station the only holdup?


I don't know about the station, but maybe it's also a question of equipment and staff. They can probably cover the present service with two sets. To run to Miami would need at least 4 sets, more likely 5.

Maybe the train sets are delivered, but are they already commissioned and fully fit for service? Has the staff been trained?

I guess it is easier to have a small pilot operation so that managers can keep a closer eye on what's happening and identify problems and scope for improvement.


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## chrsjrcj

Miami only requires 3 trainsets, and I believe all 5 trainsets have been commissioned by this point. Also, MIA to WPB will only be the current 4 coaches. When Orlando happens, they are expected to add 1 smart coach, 1 select coach, and some type of cafe car (I don't know if they determined the exact configuration they want to go with. Maybe the new Midwest/California order will give a clue.)

I know that before December, they were running all the way to just before where the ramp up to the Miami station starts. They may have run a couple of trains that way since then. I still don't believe construction on the station is finished. This blog has been taking pictures regularly of the construction progress- https://www.goldenduskphotography.com/blog/2017/12/4/miamicentral-construction-photos?rq=MiamiCentral


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## VentureForth

Was there bilingual signage in Spanish?


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## chrsjrcj

Actually, none that I noticed. The automated announcements are all done in English. Comparatively on Tri-Rail, there are certain announcements in English, Spanish, and Creole.


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## Anderson

@Chriscrj: That makes sense. I couldn't recall if there was going to be a "dedicated" food car or not (e.g. I expected some dedicated food service space, particularly if but the form that was to take wasn't entirely certain). I think there might have originally been a plan to have another coach on the WPB-MIA run and they revised the plan. I figured they'd need some space to store the meals they indicated would be included with Select on the run to Orlando, but beyond that I didn't know what they'd actually need (or if their needs had changed since the planning phase started).


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## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> Actually, none that I noticed. The automated announcements are all done in English. Comparatively on Tri-Rail, there are certain announcements in English, Spanish, and Creole.


The platform number signs at the platforms have Spanish “Linea” as I recall from my private tour back in September with the FECRS folks. Don’t recall anything else off the top of my head. 
Given that it is Miami-Dade they should probably have more Spanish signage.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## VentureForth

Wow... With regards to the woman struck and killed on Friday night...

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/local/update-woman-killed-brightline-train-was-with-man-who-made-across/ilc8GKw5jn21G2jSEp7T3O/

What a man!



:angry2:


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## CSXfoamer1997

Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!


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## Ryan

It would be notable if it wasn't happening.

People are stupid/suicidal. No great surprise.


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## me_little_me

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!


If you can figure out how to do it, be sure and contact FRA. Nobody has been successful yet. Tri-Rail has had 40 deaths.

Suicide by train.

Inattention

People just not realizing how fast a train is and how far to get across the tracks.

Impatience

Stupidity.

All are causes. None will ever be cured IMHO.


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## MattW

Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.


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## PerRock

MattW said:


> Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.


The UK has fenced off it's entire rail network (or just about all of it) in urban areas they're using fencing like this. Sure it isn't pretty, but it's a lot harder to cut or climb over.






_(Image found on Google, sorry about the size)_

peter


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## VentureForth

MattW said:


> Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.


If only it was affordable.


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## Ryan

That sounds prohibitively expensive.


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## Anderson

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!


I agree...people need to stop trying to "beat the train". Every major railroad has pedestrian strikes/trespasser incidents and, to a lesser extent, vehicle hits at grade crossings. You can try fencing off chunks of the network (I'm not sure of the benefit or utility of trying to do so in tens of thousands of miles of rural areas, but at least in urban-ish areas it's theoretically an option), but dealing with all of the grade crossings in every significant city in America would be absurdly expensive, not to mention grossly disruptive to many towns (e.g. Ashland, VA).


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## MattW

I didn't say it'd be cheap, I said that's how you do it. Another alternative is to slow all the trains down to 5mph and surround them with 20ft of foam rubber and bubble wrap...but that's what PTC is for.


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## VentureForth

This may be a way to recycle rail. https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6793644,139.5184709,3a,75y,332.44h,91.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swpvOM8qT7aGUi_WwYKgFBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This is close to my school when I was growing up in Japan. Notice on the street side, they are using old rail with rebar through them. On the other side of the tracks are concrete pylons with concrete ties, but there is a string of barbed wire at the top. Neither are that tumultuous to climb over. I suppose it's a cultural thing. But they get their fair share of suicides in Japan as well. Not as many trespasser incidents, but enough intentional infractions. But even that has taken a bit of a downward curve, as families are billed for cleanup by the railroad. As selfish an act suicide is, this burden causes many to think before they dishonor their family.


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## WoodyinNYC

The plan is to fence off the 110-mph Lincoln route St Louis-CHI in its second phase, if there ever is such a thing. All the work to date was built leaving space for the desired fencing. But even in phase one they bragged that a good many miles are already fenced off.


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## jis

MattW said:


> I didn't say it'd be cheap, I said that's how you do it. Another alternative is to slow all the trains down to 5mph and surround them with 20ft of foam rubber and bubble wrap...but that's what PTC is for.


The best alternative I think is to stop trying to run trains and invest in something with better returns.






It is completely ridiculous to expect that one can realistically come up with a scheme to stop people who go around every form of possible protective warning system to put themselves in front of moving trains. Where is any vague attempt at instilling the sense of personal responsibility among individuals?


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## chrsjrcj

I did another round trip "joyride" during the midday today. Select was again sold out, and there was a decent amount of passengers spread out between the three other coaches. In fact, I notice Select was sold out for most of the trains today. Even though Select was available when I booked my ticket, I opted for Smart again. I don't find the free drinks and snacks to be worth the $5 on a short trip, and besides, a free small bottle of water is offered to Smart coach passengers.

The good news is it looks like most people are actually using the service as intended, rather than just a joy ride. Brightline is still working on the street connection between the WPB station and Clematis Street which will make the service easily accessible to Clematis Street patrons that want to use the train. I know many business owners on Clematis Street have been eagerly anticipating the opening of the service, and judging by the amount of people using Brightline during the last two weekends they shouldn't be too disappointed. I guess it will remain to be seen how long the buzz holds up with curious travelers between WPB and FTL.

As far as the trains, both runs were done in under the 40 minutes scheduled. On the return trip, I did notice a woman in Boynton Beach holding a cardboard sign that read "Death Train." Her time would've been better spent educating pedestrians and motorists about the dangers of trying to beat the train. Other than that, a smooth uneventful trip.


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## VentureForth

Brightline is plagued by another trespasser who tried to race the train. Doesn't Amtrak and perhaps Tri Rail hit 79 mph just a mile away?


----------



## AGM.12

Regardless of whether it is freight or passenger, anytime a new service is started up there will be fatal collisions because the public is not used to that service running. Near where I live, NS started a new intermodal service to Atlanta from Charleston, SC about 30 years ago. During the first month there were, I believe at least two crossing collisions that killed four people simply because they were so used to there not being any trains running during that time of day.


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## CSXfoamer1997

I've been wondering for a long time. Are the sets semi-permanently attached or are they detachable?


----------



## Blackwolf

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> I've been wondering for a long time. Are the sets semi-permanently attached or are they detachable?


I believe they are semi-permanently attached.


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## jis

Yes. They are semi-permanently attached, like the Acelas.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## VentureForth

So, once again, Congress-Critters are shooting before taking aim. Last year, in South Florida, there were 23 fatalities, spread amongst CSX, FEC, Tri-Rail and Amtrak: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-reg-train-deaths-rise-20171218-story.html

I think the Feds are upset that a private business could possibly succeed with better, cleaner, faster service.


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## Green Maned Lion

?


----------



## VentureForth

!


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## MattW

Ok, I pretty much hate brightline's guts over their imposing airport-style security theater and thinking every passenger is potential hair-trigger lunatic, but this is positively NUTS! http://floridapolitics.com/archives/254332-brightline-safety-improvement-tab

Why aren't they demanding the same of Tri-Rail which runs at the same speeds?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Senator Mayfield wants to make sure the mantra of "no costs to the taxpayers," is followed when it comes to funding the necessary improvements for this "private" enterprise.

Florida senator says Brightline high-speed rail is not taxpayers' responsibility
Mayfield's proposed legislation calls for safety without 'stopping progress'



> Unlike what would have occurred if Scott had accepted the Obama money and built out a high-speed system, All Aboard Florida already had rights to the tracks, so their startup costs were much lower and could be privately funded with no cost to taxpayers.
> 
> Sort of.
> 
> State Sen. Debbie Mayfield (R-Melbourne) said All Aboard Florida’s Brightline trains will cost taxpayers. Specifically, more trains on the tracks means more maintenance, especially at rail crossings. When maintenance is done on public at-grade crossings, FEC passes all of those costs onto local municipalities, counties and the state.“It’s inappropriate,” Mayfield said. “All Aboard Florida should bear the cost of maintaining the equipment they’ve installed to run their trains and not push that cost off on the taxpayer.”
> 
> On the same day News 6 met with Mayfield, she had just finished a meeting with a representative of one municipality that had recently received a $400,000 bill from FEC for track maintenance.“That's a cost that a lot of the taxpayers don’t understand,” Mayfield said. “The railroad kind of just gives them a bill and says, ‘Here's your bill, this is what you owe us.’”
> 
> Mayfield told News 6 she wants to make sure maintenance and safety costs for Brightline and any other high-speed rail is not dumped on the taxpayers, who “receive no financial benefit from the rail system.”SB 572, The Florida High-Speed Passenger Rail Act, introduced by Mayfield and co-sponsored by state Sen. George Gainer ® Panama City, is expected to be heard in Tallahassee this session.The bill would require any company operating a high-speed passenger rail system in the state “to be solely responsible for certain maintenance, improvement and upgrade costs.”
> 
> Those areas include being accountable and repairing “railroad roadbed, track, and railroad culverts within the confines of the public street or highway,” and “streets or pedestrian grade crossings lying between the rails and for a distance outside the rails of one-foot beyond the end of the railroad tie.”Mayfield’s office calculated that there are 349 at-grade public crossings between Miami and Cocoa affecting approximately one million taxpayers living in those areas.
> 
> “You know, when this train leaves Palm Beach it will not stop until it gets to Orlando,” Mayfield said. “So the train will just be coming through (those communities) without any stops.”


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## chrsjrcj

MattW said:


> Ok, I pretty much hate brightline's guts over their imposing airport-style security theater and thinking every passenger is potential hair-trigger lunatic, but this is positively NUTS! http://floridapolitics.com/archives/254332-brightline-safety-improvement-tab
> 
> Why aren't they demanding the same of Tri-Rail which runs at the same speeds?


The security is far less intrusive than airports, and even less intrusive than attending a concert or visiting a theme park. You don't have to take any objects out of your pockets, you simply walk through waist high posts.

This same state senator has been trying to push this bill for years now. As it is, municipalities pay for the costs of the railroad crossings, so the $400k bill she's whining about happens with or without Brightline. It's also interesting that the bill changes the definition of high speed rail to include "passenger trains that travel faster than 80 mph that wasn't carrying passengers prior to January 1, 2017." Brightline argues that the bill unfairly targets them, as the only railroad in the state that meets that definition. This is clearly another attempt to shutdown Brightline, or prevent it from traveling through the Treasure Coast.


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## jis

MattW said:


> Ok, I pretty much hate brightline's guts over their imposing airport-style security theater and thinking every passenger is potential hair-trigger lunatic, but this is positively NUTS! http://floridapolitics.com/archives/254332-brightline-safety-improvement-tab
> 
> Why aren't they demanding the same of Tri-Rail which runs at the same speeds?


I beg to disagree with your assessment. It is clear that you have not been anywhere near Brightline and are just being an armchair jockey on this matter. [emoji6]
There is nothing airport style about the minimal security process.

One has to remember that this is Florida where I have to go through a security checkpost and wanding to get to my doctor’s office in a hospital building to make sure that some lunatic carrying a gun does not manage to get in there. [emoji53]

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## VentureForth

MattW said:


> Ok, I pretty much hate brightline's guts over their imposing airport-style security theater and thinking every passenger is potential hair-trigger lunatic, but this is positively NUTS! http://floridapolitics.com/archives/254332-brightline-safety-improvement-tab
> 
> Why aren't they demanding the same of Tri-Rail which runs at the same speeds?


Glad you aren't hair-triggered...


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## crescent-zephyr

I had to get from Fort Lauderdale to Orlando yesterday so I took Brightline to west palm and walked over to catch the Star from there.

Super impressive operation... If they continue as is, I think it will be extremely popular. Brightline at 79 mph compared to the star at 79 mph is crazy... The Brightline train is crazy smooth.

The operation is very modern... Security is a bit over the top... But such is life.

Stations are awesome with seating areas, charging ports everywhere, a coffee shop / market, even some souvenirs available.


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## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> I had to get from Fort Lauderdale to Orlando yesterday so I took Brightline to west palm and walked over to catch the Star from there.
> 
> Super impressive operation... If they continue as is, I think it will be extremely popular. Brightline at 79 mph compared to the star at 79 mph is crazy... The Brightline train is crazy smooth.
> 
> The operation is very modern... Security is a bit over the top... But such is life.
> 
> Stations are awesome with seating areas, charging ports everywhere, a coffee shop / market, even some souvenirs available.


How is security over the top?
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## Anderson

I think it's "over the top" in the sense that for all intents and purposes, many of us have never seen a railroad with more security than a ticket barrier and a K-9 team. I'm really not sure what that security is _for_...I'm sort-of wondering what would actually set off those posts, though the bag scanning might be more effective.

That said, I remain worried that since the checkpoints exist, they create a place where it would be easy to implement some lousy security theater later.


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## jis

If the risk profile is perceived to increase, say with a few bombs going off on trains, rest assured security theater will increase even if there is nothing in place at present.

In places where there is significant perceived risk one gets to go through metal detectors and get wanded to enter malls and cinema houses too. And this happens in places where there are footfalls beyond anything that most Americans have ever seen. So the argument that to many people etc. does not really stand a chance.

At present all that it will prevent is someone getting into the system with a gun or such.

The fact of the matter is that mainland US is still a relatively safe environment with only stray incidents, and there is very little systemic risks to worry about yet. But that could change as civil society disintegrates, not that it is imminent, but it is within the realm of possibilities. And the danger is going to be primarily from indigenous folks and not from outsiders, but still outsiders will be blamed, since no one likes to admit that they themselves are screwed up.


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## crescent-zephyr

It's just a lot of security for a glorified commuter rail operation. They are all over the place. Security officers were at the entrance where you buy tickets, obviously at the security screening, in the waiting room, and one on each end of the train when boarding / detraining.

The baggage check itself is fine... I was pretty much the only person with a suitcase (I was actually traveling long distance with my transfer ha) and they treated me so nice. They lifted my bag on and off the belt and were very friendly.

Walking through the posts is just.. walking through posts... Hard to complain about that ha.


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## VentureForth

Though I disagree with Crescent-Zephyr's description to be over the top (Excessive presence may be one thing, but personal intrusion would be my personal over the top factor), I would say that it would be much easier to sabotage a railroad from the outside than from the inside.

I would caution Brightline preventing people from legally carrying a gun onboard the train in a state where it is legal to do so. What's someone going to do? Hold up a train and get off at the next station? Pull the emergency? Seriously, I don't think there's been a train robbery in over 100 years.


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## chrsjrcj

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack


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## GBNorman

I did take the joyride outlined earlier at this topic.

I must agree that Brightline is a Class Act. While I haven't been on Acela this decade, I think Brightline has it topped.

But simply because they are Class hardly means that they are providing meaningful transportation offering joyrides. As I write, I am looking at the construction site called Miami Central. Volks, it ain't going to.be ready anytime soon - and who knows when or if it will move forth to Orlando. There are too many barriers

That there have been three fatalities in about as many weeks. I cringed when the train bisected an entertainment district at Delray Beach at track speed. Someone with a bit too much firewater is going to have things go bad - and that is going to cost AAF some whopper bucks.


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## cirdan

Is the security in-sourced?

It can make big difference whether the securty people are trained to be courteous and helpful, or whether the job has been outsourced to the lowest cost rent-a-cop outfit with bad attitudes and who believe that the customer is their enemy..


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## crescent-zephyr

I think it's in house. The security at the bag check were extremely friendly. The security on the platforms were a bit strict... Others wanted to take photos of the locomotive and were not allowed to go past the last door of the consist that was open. They were just doing their job....


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## Steve4031

What's the delay with Miami Central. I thought it was supposed to be done by the end of March.

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## VentureForth

GBNorman said:


> That there have been three fatalities in about as many weeks. I cringed when the train bisected an entertainment district at Delray Beach at track speed. Someone with a bit too much firewater is going to have things go bad - and that is going to cost AAF some whopper bucks.


There is a CARE meeting in Stuart, FL tonight at the Lyric Theater in Stuart. CARE is hell-bent on stopping Brightline. Here's my rub with the politics of this nonsense. From Miami to West Palm, there is a parallel track about a mile west offering nearly the same speeds by Amtrak and Tri-Rail. In fact, between CSX, FEC, Brightline (pre-revenue), Amtrak and Tri-Rail, there were 23 fatalities south of West Palm. Only 2 of those were Brightline. The rest were scattered amongst the others.
There will be bad PR. There will be Nimby's crying in their latte's. There will be deaths, which as unfortunate as they are, may help people realize that trains are big, fast, and very very lethal.


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## cirdan

It baffles me that anybody would treat a railroad crossing so lightly.

There is a crossing near where I live, It's been abandoned for years. But I look left and right every time I cross. I can't always keep up with all the news, so maybe some usage might have come back, Or seeing there are still some abandoned freight cars out there, maybe one day an engine will venture out to recover them.

And even if not, it's just a good reflex to have.


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## jis

This is Florida. It is almost like you have to go through an intelligence test and if you score higher than a low threshold you are not admitted. [emoji51]

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## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> This is Florida. It is almost like you have to go through an intelligence test and if you score higher than a low threshold you are not admitted. [emoji51]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Is that how you got in?






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## cirdan

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Florida. It is almost like you have to go through an intelligence test and if you score higher than a low threshold you are not admitted. [emoji51]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Is that how you got in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Our jls is so smart that he can fake any IQ test to get whatever score he needs



.


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## GBNorman

On my joyride, I did not find the AAF security to be intrusive. At FTL, I walked through waist high metal detector, overseen by a guard who I cannot recall if he was armed.

The return from WPB, there was a very courteous armed security guard. All she said was "may I have a peek in that handbag?". "Sure" says I. When she saw all there in there was a parka in case it rained and my New York Times, a smile and wave.

Not intrusive at all.

Even at Arsht Performing Arts Center, there are guards dressed in Tuxedos and metal detectors in place. They wanted your pockets emptied.

At Salzburg Fespialhaus last Summer, courteous English speaking "Polizei" wanted a peek in anything carried before entering.

Why Orchestra Hall in Chicago does not have more direct security surprises me.

To me it seemed that MIA TSA was "Keystone Kops" compared to the efficiency at ORD. I'm surprised after the Naperville incident last June that stronger direct security is not part of boarding any Amtrak train at any station.

Volks, get used to it.


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## VentureForth

You know, I was doing some Google Maps surfing, and I can really begin to see where the public criticism lies. There is no comparison with the number of at-grade crossings along the FEC as compared the the CSX routing. Most major roads on the CSX mainline are overpasses. The FEC is literally littered with crossings - through RV parks, golf courses, and neighborhoods. I'm sure many have been closed or rerouted since the Google Images were made, but the sheer number is mind boggling for a Class 4 track.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> Our jls is so smart that he can fake any IQ test to get whatever score he needs
> 
> 
> 
> .


Exactly! You just produce a score that meets the requirements for the current goal.





I rode it for the first time yesterday. The ride of those Siemens cars is rock solid, and they are remarkably quiet, as are the engines. You can hardly hear anything in the car adjacent to the engine.

Snacks and beverages including adult ones are complementary in Select (First) Class and can be purchased from trolley service in Smart (Coach) Class. Since there is no ticket collection or checking on board,the OBS is dedicated to serving snacks and beverages.

There was a Brightline Manager riding with an FRA observer on the northbound run. I chatted with them for a while. The FRA guy was apparently observing the operation of the service in mixed traffic with freight. We did overtake a freight in each direction, and also crossed a Brightline going in the opposite direction in each run. The FRA guy, like me, though that maintaining an almost 75mph start to stop average speed with a maximum speed of 79mph is very impressive. The sheer power assigned to the train allows it to perform almost like a distributed power electric train, and yet its acceleration and deceleration is imperceptible and smooth. Many people were walking around holding onto nothing even though each row of seats has hand hold on both sides of the aisle for anyone to grab, should a need arise.

Before boarding there are some complementary snacks and beverages available in the Select lounge which one enters by opening the entrance gate using ones ticket. In addition there is a more elaborate set of snacks and beverages available for purchase at a central kiosk.

On the whole I was very impressed with the operation and the ride and so were apparently all my co-travelers. All are eager for it to take them to Miami, though even with this limited service the trains were pretty full, and even at the low traffic time mid-afternoon, the trains was half full. Rumor has it that service will get extended to Miami in about two months, give or take a week.


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## cirdan

Do you get a seat number allocated with your ticket? Or can you sit where you want?

It makes sense that right now the OBS doesn't need to check tickets seeing platform access is only possible through ticket barriers, and there is only one destination.

But I guess once they start serving multiple destinations, some level of ticket checking would be needed, to prevent people over-staying.

Or do you also need to scan your ticket to leave the platform on arrival? That would be the only way to get by completely without on-train checking.


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## jis

All seats are assigned when you purchase the ticket. You get to choose your seat at the point of purchase. Subsequently you can change your seat assignment through the internet or at a kiosk before checking in. Platform access will always be possible only through ticket barriers. No station will have open access.

No you cannot sit where you want. You sit at your assigned seat and people seem to love the fact that you don’t have to run around trying to get a seat while boarding.

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## cirdan

Thanks for that info.

is it known whether Brightline will be offering season tickets? I guess for people communiting for work, this would be an attractive option.

I guess season ticket holders would still have to select a seat using the kiosk (or app?). I wonder if there would be a way to authomate that and save some time?

For example you could tell Brightline your preferences and the seat would be allocated automatically on passing the barriers.

I understand SNCF has a "right to travel" option on some TGV lines. So if you have a season ticket plus this right to travel card, you can walk up to any TGV on that line and you are guaranteed a right to travel, even if you don't have a seat reservation. You can look for an empty seat or if push comes to shove sit on the floor (actually, they have foliding jumper seats in the vestibules). Of course a normal mortal would never be allowed to do that on a TGV so it can be touted as being a massive priveledge that people willingly pay for.

I guess the next step up on that would be an app that automatically allocates you a seat at the last minute so you don't have to look for one.


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## jis

I have seen many normal mortals use the vestibule jump seats on TGVs though.

BTW, I discovered that at the Brightline checkin gate actually gets the latest update from the central computer if needed, when you scan the boarding pass. So even a very last minute seat change will be detected and if different from what is on the boarding pass one is asked to go to a kiosk and get an updated boarding pass, so that the latest seat assignment appears correctly on it. It is important to have the right seat info on the boarding pass, since a human has to read it and match it with the numbers on the platform and on doors and seats in order to actually find ones seat. Until we have eprfected the update to the brain patch to be able to feed it directly to ones brain, we are stuck with printed paper or Smartphone App documents.

As for what Brightline's plans are, I have no idea and they are not willing to talk about much of it at present. their canned response is, first we get to Orlando. Then we can talk about enhancements. So my guess is that not much will change until late 2020 at the earliest.


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## jis

https://www.thenextmiami.com/miamicentral-completion-6-8-weeks-brightline-eyes-tampa-jacksonville-beyond/


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## Caesar La Rock

Glad Miami Central will be completed soon. I need to check the station in Orlando, I think that station is almost finished or close too. They just need to lay track up there. I'm not too far from the airport.


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## Anderson

The interest in the bond issue is a bit of a surprise given the earlier hurdles, but I also suspect that as it's become clear that this is actually happening in some form (and the legal issues have been knocked down bit-by-bit) interest has risen...so I probably shouldn't be shocked.


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## bretton88

Anderson said:


> The interest in the bond issue is a bit of a surprise given the earlier hurdles, but I also suspect that as it's become clear that this is actually happening in some form (and the legal issues have been knocked down bit-by-bit) interest has risen...so I probably shouldn't be shocked.


Rising interest rates have helped pick up the bond market a bit too, though that does mean a little more cost to AAF.


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## Anderson

The overpriced stock market (in my opinion, at least) probably has something to do with it as well...there just aren't many good values to be had elsewhere.

I will say, with those tickets, that given where the printers are (e.g. downstairs), if Brightline is going to force you to get a new ticket they should have a printer at the checkpoint (not unlike airports have at the gates). It _shouldn't_ matter, but I can easily imagine where someone having to go downstairs, wait in line to mess with the touchscreens (they're good technology but they can take a few moments to deal with) and then come back upstairs turns a tight "make the train" run into a narrow miss. 2-3 minutes _shouldn't_ matter, but it easily can.

That minor kvetch (which is all it really is unless/until traffic loads hit a certain level...if we get down the line to where they're running lots and lots of trains I could see lines in the station being an issue at peak hours) aside, it was fun trying to explain Brightline to some west coast-based foamers on the last PPC trip:

Me: "They're between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, and going to extend to downtown Miami in a few months."
Them: "Well, they're going to have to find a way to get their trains from there to the airport station."
Me: "No, it's privately run."
Them: "So, it's Amtrak? Why is Amtrak on another line down there?"
Me: "No, it's being run by a private company. FEC is behind the effort." [1]
Them: "Oh, so it's a state-supported train? I didn't know Florida did that. But won't they have to get over to the airport station."
Me: "No, it's being privately financed. The state isn't involved. It's on the _other_ tracks in South Florida."
Them: "Ahhh...so, why is Amtrak running two separate lines down there?"
Me: *facepalms and more or less gives up, realizing that a lot of folks don't have the _context_ for this*

This is not verbatim for the conversation, but it is scarily representative of it.


[1] Oversimplification and inaccurate, I know, but it was the easiest way to explain it.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> BTW, I discovered that at the Brightline checkin gate actually gets the latest update from the central computer if needed, when you scan the boarding pass. So even a very last minute seat change will be detected and if different from what is on the boarding pass one is asked to go to a kiosk and get an updated boarding pass, so that the latest seat assignment appears correctly on it. It is important to have the right seat info on the boarding pass, since a human has to read it and match it with the numbers on the platform and on doors and seats in order to actually find ones seat. Until we have eprfected the update to the brain patch to be able to feed it directly to ones brain, we are stuck with printed paper or Smartphone App documents.


Many (most?) airlines already offer the option that you don't need a printed boarding pass but can scan either a stored pdf, or use an app to pass the gates.

The advantage of an app is that they can update information in real time, so strictly speaking there is no need to send you back to a kiosk.

If the app is GPS enabled they can even use it to check whether or not you have boarded the train, and no-show bookings can be released for the benefit of passengers boarding at subsequent stations.


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## jis

With a paper there is. With an app there is not. I was using paper.


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## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> https://www.thenextmiami.com/miamicentral-completion-6-8-weeks-brightline-eyes-tampa-jacksonville-beyond/


OK, I'll bite, do you know anything more about the purported "beyonds" in the links (Georgia, Texas, etc)?

Brightline, Broward & Beyond?


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## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thenextmiami.com/miamicentral-completion-6-8-weeks-brightline-eyes-tampa-jacksonville-beyond/
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I'll bite, do you know anything more about the purported "beyonds" in the links (Georgia, Texas, etc)?
> 
> Brightline, Broward & Beyond?
Click to expand...

I know about beyond West Palm Beach upto Orlando

Construction is beginning as we speak on Phase 2 north of West Palm Beach. There has been some drainage work that is already under construction along SR 528 in Orange County. Construction is about to begin in Brevard County.

Beyond Phase 2, station location in Brevard County is in discussion between Brightline and the County Commissioners - most likely somewhere in Rockledge or Cocoa as it looks now, though Melbourne and Palm bay are in the set of locations under consideration too.

Recently Fort Pierce has started discussion for a station there.

Beyond Orlando I don;t know anything beyond what the article says other than some easement and other applications that were submitted in connection with a potential service to Jacksonville over the last six months. There is currently no timeline for such.

AFAIK Georgia, Texas etc. are just aspirational, though given the deep pockets of SoftBank, their participation in some way shape or form with the Texas HSR cannot be ruled out I suppose.


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## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> AFAIK Georgia, Texas etc. are just aspirational, though given the deep pockets of SoftBank, their participation in some way shape or form with the Texas HSR cannot be ruled out I suppose.


Thanks, that was the part I was most interested and intrigued by - it seems a long shot.


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## crescent-zephyr

I wonder if Brightline would pay for part of the Sunrail connection at Orlando for exchange of trackage rights that would get them on the way to Tampa?


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## chrsjrcj

I'm not sure they would need the SunRail connection to the airport. They could just use 417 from the Airport to I-4, which was one of the alternative alignments for the original Florida HSR project.


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I wonder if Brightline would pay for part of the Sunrail connection at Orlando for exchange of trackage rights that would get them on the way to Tampa?


No. Since the plan for Tampa does not require any trackage rights. It is all new trackage along the SR 427 - I-4 Corridor.

The SunRail connection would be along the existing spur to the power station.


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## crescent-zephyr

Oh nice... Where did you see this plan? I hadn't read that yet.

The existing CSX alignment sure seems pretty good to me.


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## cirdan

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh nice... Where did you see this plan? I hadn't read that yet.
> 
> The existing CSX alignment sure seems pretty good to me.


But would CSX let Brightline play on their tracks?

I wonder if Brightline will be able to dust off any of the planning and pre-engineering work that went into preparing the abroted Orlando to Tampa HSR project? Or whether they're starting over from scratch.


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## GBNorman

Volks, although I'm not going to a concert at Kravis this year while I'm "down below" Feb 18-20 (the Chicago Symphony will be performing there, but it will be the same program that I heard last Friday at Orchestra Hall). I could possibly put Brightline to use to get from Ehh to Bee.

Here's how: drive to Ft. Lauderdale (from the Holiday Inn at Turnpike Exit 75), park at the "intro-free" garage, take Brightline to WP, walk to Ruth's Chris adjacent to Kravis, early Dinner (on my own; like to be gone from restaurants before they fill up), take Brightline back to FTL (that gives an hour to get .02 BAC out of me from any Grape Juice I had), drive back to hotel. Maybe I'll go Business NB and have a "comp" Grape Juice aperitif, SB Coach so "I'm led not into temptation".

I've now booked a ticket for my Feb 19 "joyride to chow". Up 355P in Select. Back 7P in Smart. Booking went very smooth.

What's another $22.50 when I've already laid out an "only sort of refundable" $814 for Auto-Train!!!

I have to give them credit for a smooth rollout. I'm not opposed to AAF; I'm just skeptical. They haven't a prayer if all they build is MIA-WPB (after seeing MIA first hand last week, I say a year to go, even if they are saying next Quarter, i.e by June 30) and only a slight one if MIA-ORL is ever completed.

All I ask is keep the Delray Beach "revelers" away from my trains. Anyone else around here know of that entertainment district at Atlantic Ave? The Late Randy Resor (not sure if he was over here) once did as his Mother lived in Delray. He pointed out to me how it parallels the FEC and said before Brightline was ever dreamed of "there's going to be a moose-goosing here one of these days".

Again I say; "get on down" and get your joyrides in.


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## GBNorman

ANOTHER "WHACK-A-MOLE":

 Miami Herald 

Fair Use:



> The man injured by a Brightline train in Wilton Manors on Thursday had attempted to kill himself when he walked along a stretch of tracks and lay on the metal awaiting an approaching train, police said.
> 
> The 48-year-old Broward County resident, whom police have not identified, endured non-fatal injuries when he was struck by the passenger line around 8 p.m. in the 1200 block of  Northeast 24th Street. He was taken to Broward Health Medical Center to receive medical treatment and mental health assistance, according to a statement releaed by Wilton Manors Police.


Oh well, at least this one was non-fatal


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## JRR

Amazing that he wasn’t killed. I heard one of our local elected officials declare on the news that “we just have to spend more effort to educate the people about the danger of high speed trains!”

It seems we need to educate her!

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## Anderson

So, of the five "incidents", IIRC two have been...shall we say, intentional. As wacky as this sounds, it almost seems like the message is getting through to well...


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## chrsjrcj

Brightline has increased prices on the Select fare for certain trains because of high demand. It looks like it only effects the midday trains during the weekends.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-tickets-selling-prices-increase/


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## VentureForth

Dang. They're going to out price it fit me before I can get to try it out.






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## VentureForth

Now 6: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/local/new-brightline-train-hits-car-stopped-tracks-boca-raton/GopBHlViryhfjcOv6XOomN/

This one is trickier. Man was allegedly stopped at a light when the gates came down. Perhaps bad street-signal/Crossing timing? Of course, one should NEVER stop on the tracks, regardless, but could this have been [more] preventable?


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## AGM.12

Doesn't PTC have a feature that would let the engineer know if there is a vehicle in the trains way if it is on the crossing?


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## jis

AGM.12 said:


> Doesn't PTC have a feature that would let the engineer know if there is a vehicle in the trains way if it is on the crossing?


Even if there were such a feature, a vehicle getting in front of the train just before it arrives at the crossing, which is usually the case, would not leave enough time and distance to prevent a collision.

PTC itself does not specifically address grade crossing and other incursions. but there are other overlays that can be plugged into the system to help, just as the same can be done with any cab signaling system with speed enforcement..


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## JRR

There are signs all over that intersection telling you not to stop on the tracks. I go by there almost every day and see people doing just that.

I am on the 97 right now, just left Sebring. Got on in Winter Park and as the train was pulling into the station, two people ran across the tracks after going around the gates with the train no more than 20 feet from them when they made it across.

No accounting for stupidity!

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## VentureForth

Well, apparently Operation Lifesaver and Brightline and Amtrak and CSX and FEC all together lack the funding to blitz radio and TV for a week.


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## chrsjrcj

I heard Operation Lifesaver/Brightline radio adverts a year before operation began. There were also signs posted along the ROW and education campaigns at nearby schools. This was all done right when Blue started testing.

Freight trains have long used the FEC corridor and Tri-Rail runs 50 trains a day only a few miles to the west. These types of incidents occured before Brightline, and will continue unless the entire ROW is grade seperated.


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## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> Dang. They're going to out price it fit me before I can get to try it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


I'm glad to see that they're in a position to bump the fare a bit. I hate to say it, but $15 for 2-1 seating, lounge access, and potentially a glass of wine thrown in was a steal and IIRC they were having issues where Select was running full while Smart was running relatively empty. Bear in mind that the $5 price difference was less than a decent drink at a bar.


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## crescent-zephyr

Well those fares have always been advertised as "introductory" - they want the curious to come see what it's like so when they start running the full route, people will already know how it works. The prices will go up quite a bit in the next few years I'm sure. This operation is so different than anything else operating in this country that I can't imagine this not being a huge hit once the Orlando - Miami operation is open.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dang. They're going to out price it fit me before I can get to try it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad to see that they're in a position to bump the fare a bit. I hate to say it, but $15 for 2-1 seating, lounge access, and potentially a glass of wine thrown in was a steal and IIRC they were having issues where Select was running full while Smart was running relatively empty. Bear in mind that the $5 price difference was less than a decent drink at a bar.
Click to expand...

I agree.

Much as I hate price hikes when I'm talking about my own wallter, objectively speaking, the ability to riase prices shows the market is able to bear higher prices.

The profitability implications of that are good news for investors eyeing privately funded mixed real-estate and intercity rail projects, not just in South Florida, but anywhere.


----------



## GBNorman

From Holiday Inn Express Boca Raton--

I did take the trip on Brightline outlined earlier. For Northbound in Select, the car was substantially full, and the trip was without incident. I still fear a WHACKAMOLE at Delray Beach - it will be some hotshot lawyer whose family will "take em for everything".

The Select Attendant, Miss Brooke, was exceptionally courteous - kind of like a Flight Attendant you remember for good reasons.

I realize this is an introductory period. The trains are new and the staff enthusiastic. But this enthusiasm does not translate into a sustainable private sector operation. Obviously no one can hold "they're making it" during this "intro" phase. While their fares planned "post intro" are a State secret", I think them to be double the "intros".

Returning on the Southbound, I had the Smart Coach as good as to myself - the joyriders have moved on to other things. As I was returning from Dinner walking North on Rosemary from Okeechobee, I met a couple with a young child "who was letting his presence known" in Select heading Northward. That turned out to be the return trip from their "excursion to Ft. Lauderdale".

Access to Miami will certainly give them business beyond joyrides. With the Miami location right with the Miami judiciary, some Palm Beach attorneys will find it convenient.

I continue to hold the only "prayer" they have for private sector operation is to complete the route to MCO. They could well have a B-School Model showing "them making it", but did such contemplate the funding they would need and the "junk bond" rating translating to higher debt service costs than anticipated.

Even if they choose not to lay the 40 miles of track to MCO and offer a bus transfer in it's place, will that cut it?

Sure I've enjoyed these joyrides on an outfit that puts customer service on a plateau with air travel during the '50's, but I still say "get on down and get your joyrides in".


----------



## VentureForth

3 MiamiCentral opened today as the first building to do so at MiamiCentral station. I would have hoped it would be the station. lol


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I've already gotten my first joy ride in. Likewise I got my joyrides in on the Hoosier State and "Pullman Rail Journeys" while I could as well. While I had hoped the Hoosier State and Pullman would have lasted longer than they did... the Brightline model shows so much promise in comparison. I'm not sure why Venture doubts the completion of the Orlando line but Orlando to Miami sure seems like a can't miss corridor.


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## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> I've already gotten my first joy ride in. Likewise I got my joyrides in on the Hoosier State and "Pullman Rail Journeys" while I could as well. While I had hoped the Hoosier State and Pullman would have lasted longer than they did... the Brightline model shows so much promise in comparison. I'm not sure why Venture doubts the completion of the Orlando line but Orlando to Miami sure seems like a can't miss corridor.


I don't ever recall doubting completion to Orlando other than the massive continued schedule slips. I'm excited about it. My only consternation was that it was going to the airport rather than a more centric transit hub. But the development of a transit hub at the airport has quieted me down some...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## jis

They have started doing preparatory draining and other mitigation construction along SR528 between Cocoa and Orlando, in preparation to start actual earthwork for the ROW. One major intersection on SR528 has been completely modified to grade separate the entry-exit ramps from the Brightline ROW. ROW work should begin mid year this year once the drainage structures have been put in place.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> They have started doing preparatory draining and other mitigation construction along SR528 between Cocoa and Orlando, in preparation to start actual earthwork for the ROW. One major intersection on SR528 has been completely modified to grade separate the entry-exit ramps from the Brightline ROW. ROW work should begin mid year this year once the drainage structures have been put in place.


What do you mean by drainage structures.

Does this mean temporary drainage to permit construction work? Or is there going to be some permanent drtainage system to keep the tracks dry? Isn't the normal way to build railroads across a virgin swamp usually to dump massive amounts of crushed rock to provide a stable foundation, which, once it has settled, doesn't need specific drainage? Crushed rock being pretty much self-draining.

Or are you talking more about diverting, protecting or accomodating existing drainage ditches that cross the future track bed? For example by building culverts?


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## crescent-zephyr

Sorry venture! It was GBnorman's post, not yours, that seemed to doubt the completion.

I agree with the central transit hub but where would that be? The Lynx station? The Amtrak station? The airport is as much of a transit hub as anything in Orlando I think.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> What do you mean by drainage structures.
> 
> Does this mean temporary drainage to permit construction work? Or is there going to be some permanent drtainage system to keep the tracks dry? Isn't the normal way to build railroads across a virgin swamp usually to dump massive amounts of crushed rock to provide a stable foundation, which, once it has settled, doesn't need specific drainage? Crushed rock being pretty much self-draining.
> 
> Or are you talking more about diverting, protecting or accomodating existing drainage ditches that cross the future track bed? For example by building culverts?


Permanent drainage management structures, includes drains and some culvert work too, but not any major bridge/viaduct work yet, like the ones needed for crossing the St.Johns or the Econlockhatchee River basins.

Both the Dallas Blvd and the International Corporate Park Blvd exit ramps have been/are in the process of being rebuilt with grade separation from the Brightline ROW.


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## VentureForth

Totally off topic - but I was reading through some of the earlier posts in the thread from 2012. Interesting history!

But I came across a name I haven't seen in a while, and it was confirmed the he hasn't been on this site for three years. Anyone know whatever happened to Mr. George Harris?

Meanwhile, I wish I had the time to read all 96 pages of history, but I don't, and for some reason the search function doesn't work with this browser at work. So, please indulge me if already asked: Will the deviation from Cocoa to the airport be single or double tracked?


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## jis

George got sick of folks on AU and left.




In real life he is still around AFAIK.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> George got sick of folks on AU and left.
> 
> 
> 
> In real life he is still around AFAIK.


I hope so. I think he was as knowledgeable from an engineering standpoint as you, but had a politically different viewpoint.
Anyway, hope he is well.


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Meanwhile, I wish I had the time to read all 96 pages of history, but I don't, and for some reason the search function doesn't work with this browser at work. So, please indulge me if already asked: Will the deviation from Cocoa to the airport be single or double tracked?


It will be double track except for a 7 mile single track section between a mile or two west of Dallas Rd and Narcoussee Road. AFAICT even there most of the ROW will have space for two tracks but initially there will be a single track. The only part where things are really tight is about two miles where SR528 intersects SR417 between the Toll Plaza on SR528 and Narcoussee Road.

This is based on 2015 Track Charts. I don't know if things have changed since then. They have not filed any changes with FRA since then, so I presume not. But actual construction is still probably six to nine months away in that area. I believe originally the single track was a cost saving measure in an area that will require lots of over and under passes to get around the tangle of ramps at the SR528/SR 417 interchange.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, I wish I had the time to read all 96 pages of history, but I don't, and for some reason the search function doesn't work with this browser at work. So, please indulge me if already asked: Will the deviation from Cocoa to the airport be single or double tracked?
> 
> 
> 
> It will be double track except for a 7 mile single track section between a mile or two west of Dallas Rd and Narcoussee Road. AFAICT even there most of the ROW will have space for two tracks but initially there will be a single track. The only part where things are really tight is about two miles where SR528 intersects SR417 between the Toll Plaza on SR528 and Narcoussee Road.
> 
> This is based on 2015 Track Charts. I don't know if things have changed since then. They have not filed any changes with FRA since then, so I presume not. But actual construction is still probably six to nine months away in that area. I believe originally the single track was a cost saving measure in an area that will require lots of over and under passes to get around the tangle of ramps at the SR528/SR 417 interchange.
Click to expand...

Intersting. Thanks for that explanation.

The new section is going to be 125mph. Is that correct?

Will that speed be attainable throughout the length of the new section? Or will the snaking that will probably be required to fit between the various highway ramps impose lower speeds?

What about the turnouts at the transitions between the double and single track sections. Will these be 125mph enabled?


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## jis

From East to West it is 110mph from Cocoa to just east of I-95, 125mph from thence to about a mile west of SR417 interchange, 90mph from thence to close to Goldenrod Rd. and then slowing down in steps through 80, 50, 35 and 30 down to 20mph entry into the station through the Airport property. The station will have three platform tracks on two platforms.

The transition from double to single track at the eastern end of the single track is at 125mph through a high speed switch. At the west end it is at 90mph.

In short there will be quite a long stretch of continuous grade separated 125mph running.


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## VentureForth

I don't know if y'all read the comments to the final environmental impact study (FEIS), but they were released back in December and man, this makes for some wild reading. Seriously, if these folks let AAF just proceed, and spend their time and energy making it safe... Sheeesh.

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/17653<--opens PDF

I personally like the comments by Indian River County, Florida; Martin County, Florida; and CARE FL: "Alternatives Analysis Needs to Consider Hyperloop One Project"

ROFLOL


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## jis

The level of idiocy in those counties is quite unquestionable


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## Metra Electric Rider

Once Chicago builds a Loop O'Hare hyperloop everybody will be doing it!


----------



## frequentflyer

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/silencing-brightline-one-fourth-crossings-get-improvements/sa5ntuDPjSNXF0AI2Zbs1O/


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## Pere Flyer

frequentflyer said:


> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/silencing-brightline-one-fourth-crossings-get-improvements/sa5ntuDPjSNXF0AI2Zbs1O/


The headline is misleading, but the article is quite balanced.


> “The infrastructure in place will provide a safe environment for those who abide by the law,” [Malissa] Booth said.


Thank you, Ms. Booth, for providing the voice of reason!

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## Brian_tampa

https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2018/03/07/brightline-president-train-ridership-3x-expected.html

Ridership 3X what they expected and Miami to open by end of April. Great news and this shows that Florida will support passenger trains if done right (frequent, on-time service, and good employees such as I have experienced with Brightline).


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## JRR

The hysteria over the accidents to date is ridiculous. The people who caused the accidents all went around the gates. I favor law enforcement strictly enforce the law.

Unfortunately, the line is of no benefit to me in Boca.

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## me_little_me

frequentflyer said:


> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/silencing-brightline-one-fourth-crossings-get-improvements/sa5ntuDPjSNXF0AI2Zbs1O/


“The infrastructure in place will provide a safe environment for those who abide by the law,” Booth said.

Isn't that nearly the whole problem? People don't abide by the law. I, for one, have NEVER seen police parked near a crossing to give out tickets to the idiots. And so many cities have red light cameras and send tickets to violators but how many have crossing cameras and do the same. Just like red light cameras (with all their faults) have reduced the number of people running the lights, crossing cameras can do the same for violators without any of the same downsides.


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## cirdan

me_little_me said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/silencing-brightline-one-fourth-crossings-get-improvements/sa5ntuDPjSNXF0AI2Zbs1O/
> 
> 
> 
> “The infrastructure in place will provide a safe environment for those who abide by the law,” Booth said.
> 
> Isn't that nearly the whole problem? People don't abide by the law. I, for one, have NEVER seen police parked near a crossing to give out tickets to the idiots. And so many cities have red light cameras and send tickets to violators but how many have crossing cameras and do the same. Just like red light cameras (with all their faults) have reduced the number of people running the lights, crossing cameras can do the same for violators without any of the same downsides.
Click to expand...

This, absolutely

OTOH, I beleive that for rail lines with frequent trains and higher speeds, full segregation should be a long term objective.


----------



## JRR

me_little_me said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/silencing-brightline-one-fourth-crossings-get-improvements/sa5ntuDPjSNXF0AI2Zbs1O/
> 
> 
> 
> “The infrastructure in place will provide a safe environment for those who abide by the law,” Booth said.
> Isn't that nearly the whole problem? People don't abide by the law. I, for one, have NEVER seen police parked near a crossing to give out tickets to the idiots. And so many cities have red light cameras and send tickets to violators but how many have crossing cameras and do the same. Just like red light cameras (with all their faults) have reduced the number of people running the lights, crossing cameras can do the same for violators without any of the same downsides.
Click to expand...


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## JRR

Great idea. While red light cameras do have some negative results re: accidents, the cameras would be a great use of them without any negative consequences that I can think of.

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## MattW

They're also flagrantly unconstitutional and nothing more than an attempt at profiteering by local governments. I'm all for increased rail safety, but not like that. Two things need to happen for increased rail safety. One, increased enforcement by actual police. Ticket cars and pedestrians alike for violating the crossing. Not to the level of true zero tolerance, but close. Second, go after the people and estates of the people that cause this. This is two-fold. At the scene, release the train as soon as the relief crew is there, no more "investigating." The local Barney Fifes can play Joe Friday all they want once the passengers have disembarked at the terminal and the train is in the yard. Then sue the victim if they live or their family/estate if they don't.


----------



## jis

MattW said:


> They're also flagrantly unconstitutional and nothing more than an attempt at profiteering by local governments. I'm all for increased rail safety, but not like that. Two things need to happen for increased rail safety. One, increased enforcement by actual police. Ticket cars and pedestrians alike for violating the crossing. Not to the level of true zero tolerance, but close. Second, go after the people and estates of the people that cause this. This is two-fold. At the scene, release the train as soon as the relief crew is there, no more "investigating." The local Barney Fifes can play Joe Friday all they want once the passengers have disembarked at the terminal and the train is in the yard. Then sue the victim if they live or their family/estate if they don't.


Whether they are unconstitutional or not is currently an open issue and not a settled one. Of course each can have their own opinion on the matter, but that is of little value in a legal discourse. So until the Courts rule otherwise, they are just fine.


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## JRR

It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:




An actual Police presence.

As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.

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----------



## Blackwolf

JRR said:


> It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4294.jpg
> 
> An actual Police presence.
> 
> As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Is the Porta-John a new arrival as well? Because if it is, maybe they actually intend on having someone there for more than a few minutes.

Coffee and pastries often lead to an accute need for facilities.


----------



## JRR

Don’t know the answer as I don’t usually go by here but went by earlier this morning and saw the cop there with his bible gum machine on and when I came back an hour later, he was still there and snapped the picture while stopped at the light at Dixie Highway.

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----------



## Anderson

JRR said:


> It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4294.jpg
> 
> An actual Police presence.
> 
> As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Legally, I wonder if _Brightline _(or FECR) could put up a camera and work with a contractor to file trespassing complaints?

(That's actually a point worth pursuing...could the railroad try to have trespassing charges filed for folks ignoring the gates?)


----------



## me_little_me

Anderson said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that perhaps Boca Raton is doing something. See the attached picture of the Dixie Highway / Spanish River crossing this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4294.jpg
> 
> An actual Police presence.
> 
> As to whether a camera at rr crossings would be constitutional or not, I don’t believe that there had been a court determination of that use.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Legally, I wonder if _Brightline _(or FECR) could put up a camera and work with a contractor to file trespassing complaints?
> 
> (That's actually a point worth pursuing...could the railroad try to have trespassing charges filed for folks ignoring the gates?)
> 
> That would mean Brightline's representatives (or their contractor's) would have to show up in court to testify to prove the time was correct, the camera correctly recorded the incident, the gates were legitimately down and they correctly identified the right perps. And trying to get back the cost of all that would be a problem. On the other hand, if the municipality does it, the railroad doesn't have to get involved.
Click to expand...


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## JRR

Just an update to Boca policing. I was advised by others that several other Boca crossings had police “observers” last week.

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## VentureForth

According to the last couple months, the FHP should be up in the Boynton Beach area monitoring the crossings.


----------



## VentureForth

MattW said:


> They're also flagrantly unconstitutional and nothing more than an attempt at profiteering by local governments. I'm all for increased rail safety, but not like that. Two things need to happen for increased rail safety. One, increased enforcement by actual police. Ticket cars and pedestrians alike for violating the crossing. Not to the level of true zero tolerance, but close. Second, go after the people and estates of the people that cause this. This is two-fold. At the scene, release the train as soon as the relief crew is there, no more "investigating." The local Barney Fifes can play Joe Friday all they want once the passengers have disembarked at the terminal and the train is in the yard. Then sue the victim if they live or their family/estate if they don't.


They aren't "flagrantly" unconstitutional because they still exist. It's a form of civil law enforcement. Sure, there are challenges to it, but being in public means you are no longer in private. Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.


----------



## willem

VentureForth said:


> Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.


There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

willem said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.
Click to expand...

Only if it's concealed rooftop areas of Amtrak stations.....


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## Anderson

@me_little_me: Fair point, though I suspect that if the local courts were amenable they could arrange for all of the summonses to land on the same docket (much as most officers will have one day every few weeks that they go in). Having a representative show up one or two days a month (probably only one; I'm not expecting a huge number of cases, especially once some stick is being put about) isn't likely to be insanely expensive. Even if they have the local governments handle it, they would still likely need to either totally outsource the process (e.g. the cameras would basically be a municipal operation) or have a technician send in an affadavit.

Moreover, knowing how *ahem* cooperative one or two counties have been (Martin and Indian River to varying degrees), I wouldn't want to bet on them being particularly aggressive in this sort of enforcement; I'd probably be doing some of this in South Florida as a trial run (no pun intended) for expecting to have to do it further north to work around incalcitrant counties.

To be clear, I'm mainly thinking of license plates (not facial recognition); in those cases, I think you'd be on better ground than a red-light camera would be, especially seeing as the railroad probably predates every crossing...so trespass would seem to be at issue.


----------



## VentureForth

willem said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.
Click to expand...

It was in response to the comment that cameras are flagrantly unconstitutional. I don't think they are unconstitutional, but I don't think cameras should be used in a facial recognition way (ie: identifying trespassers to go around gates). Cameras identifying vehicles, which are regulated by the State are fair game to capture and identify (by license plate number). Prosecuting the driver will always be extremely difficult because anyone could be driving the car regardless of to whom it is registered. That's a whole 'nother issue.


----------



## jis

Apparently various branches of DHS want to use cameras in a face recognition way in a big way



including for identity verification at immigration checkpoints, instead of or in addition to using things like finger prints as is done at Global Entry kiosks today.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Toll Roads and Casinos depend on the use of Cameras and/or Scanners to ID users.

Facial recognition software,developed for intelligence/military usage, is now standard in Casinos and also some Government buildings.

Technology increasingly takes leaps and bounds, while Laws and Ordinances lag behind in trying to strike a balance in protecting individual rights versus collective security.

I have no problem with cameras in public areas, they've proven to be excellent tools for dealing with crime and terrorism in many places.

Morons that shouldn't be driving is another topic that has been covered here many times, but the use of Cameras @ grade crossings should be a No brainer!


----------



## me_little_me

Many of the red light camera issues have to do with the fact that some communities have reduced yellow time where there is a camera, issues of outsourcing that task to private companies the right to bill/collect money, and the fact that in least some communities, an officer has to review and decide whether the camera was triggered even when someone made a full stop then legally proceeded to turn right on red. There have been cases where the officer got it wrong but the person charged is no longer in the community and can't argue their case or even "prove" it without a local lawyer.

These should not be permitted to be the case for RR crossing violations. As few trains as there are (compared to number of times a traffic light turns red) should allow video triggered by the gate lights (i.e. video on all the time but deleted automatically unless crossing warning activated if something is detected in the death zone) in which case prior 30 seconds or so saved. Video more accurate than single photo. Far less data involved. Third party outsourcing of data gathering, decision making and any billing , IMHO, should ALWAYS be prohibited. Either the RR does it and files civil/criminal trespassing suit or municipality does it.


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## JRR

More effective solution than posting police cars at each crossing.

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## willem

VentureForth said:


> willem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I'm NOT for facial recognition of trespassers, but driving is a privilege, not a right when exercised under the law.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a segue here that I do not understand. Trespassing is neither a right nor a privilege.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was in response to the comment that cameras are flagrantly unconstitutional. I don't think they are unconstitutional, but I don't think cameras should be used in a facial recognition way (ie: identifying trespassers to go around gates). Cameras identifying vehicles, which are regulated by the State are fair game to capture and identify (by license plate number). Prosecuting the driver will always be extremely difficult because anyone could be driving the car regardless of to whom it is registered. That's a whole 'nother issue.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the explanation.


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## cirdan

In theory, isn't a railroad crossing actually railroad property, over which road traffic (including pedestrians) merely have a right of way.

The railroad should therefore be within its rights to deploy cameras on its own property.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Back to riding on Brightline--I have two questions for anyone who has taken it:

Is there a luggage area, or is it specifically for business/leisure travel? (In other words, if I went down there on vacation and had my suitcase, would I be able to carry it on and have a place to put it without getting dirty looks?)

Also, have they started the free snacks/beverages yet? Just curious as to how they are going to serve everyone on such a short trip!


----------



## chrsjrcj

They offer checked luggage and you can carry on. I think they have the size limit for the carry on. Despite the short trip, I have seen people bring luggage on board.

There are complimentary snacks and beverages in select and in the select lounge. Theyre pretty good getting everyone even when Select is close to full. Snacks and beverages are purchased in Smart, so less time is spent actually serving people. Only during opening weekend when Smart was packed and everything was complimentary did I see them struggle to serve everyone.


----------



## cirdan

If they offer checked luggage, does this imply there is a luggage compartment in one of the cars?

maybe I didn't look closely enough, but on the pictures and movies I've seen of the trains so far I never noticed such a thing.


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## chrsjrcj

In the last coach there is a section at the end accessible only to crew. This is where the luggage carts (what Brightline places checked luggage) should go.


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## jis

Yup last coach at the end where the locomotive is attached. It is afterall a permanently coupled train set with unique cars in their unique positions in the consist.


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## GBNorman

At about 12:30 within the link is a focus on the Delray Beach Atlantic Avenue X-ing at which I am fearful "something bad" is going to happen:

https://youtu.be/PhaOVwG9eTM

This X-ing I think represents a far greater hazard than do either illustrated in Ft. Lauderdale. Broward Blvd is immediately South of the station, so any BL train has stopped, and when the Miami service begins (I still hold such will be closer to Xmas than Easter), the NB trains, Freight and Passenger, will be approaching the station at a Restricted speed. While nothing beyond their self-centered idiocy, can explain those "not exactly homeless or on welfare" folk from climbing over the freight train at 1st St SE, any train is moving over that X-ing at Restricted speed.

Despite my absolute astonishment that I have held throughout these pages, AAF is moving forward. Actually serving Miami, as well as inevitably charging "market" fares (my guess for Miami-WP will be $45 Coach, $65 Business each way), the hemorrhage the operation has to be experiencing will be stemmed to some degree.


----------



## jis

Here is an interesting proposal for extension to Tampa that I am sure AAF planners will take as input when they start designing the Orlando - Tampa project:




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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Here is an interesting proposal for extension to Tampa that I am sure AAF planners will take as input when they start designing the Orlando - Tampa project:


This proposal goes against alot of what AAF has said that they require in order to be successful. First this proposal loops off into Disney World adding time and additional construction costs. Second it detours into Lakeland using the existing CSX A Line route through downtown. Finally, it uses Tampa Union station. All of these require new environmental reviews and new routes to be built along private property.
First with the proposed Disney world route. My own personal belief is that AAF will follow the old FLHSR route from the airport to Disney via SR528 Beachline to I-4. The next phase of I4-Ultimate by 2025 will clear the I4 median from SR528 to US27 for AAF. Currently there are many bridge structures in the I4 median as it traverses Disney world that are in the way of constructing a rail corridor at grade level there. Alternatively, AAF could choose the Central Florida Greenway SR517 (owned by CFX) to get to I4. The CFX authority has big plans to expand this road west of the airport. I doubt AAF could build in the median from what I have read. Perhaps adjacent to the SR417 but that would involve aquiring land in order to run at fast speeds by reducing the curvature. SR417 is curvy along this section.

The lakeland detour sounds good on paper. Yet it also involves alot of slow speed running to get to downtown lakeland. And a very unwilling partner in CSX. It is not about to let go of the lakeland Auburndale route - it's backbone of Central Florida. I could see a lakeland stop being built by AAF but in North Lakeland along I4.

The proposed route in Tampa to the old Union Station (TUS) defies FECI/AAF desire for transit oriented development. This site is not ideal for new development integrated with the station. There are potential sites west and north of TUS but nothing like AAF has built in S Florida so far. Also, using TUS involves more slow speed trackage and costly viaducts. A potential station on the site of the FL HSR project site near I275 has alot of available government owned land south of I275 and near the station site. Also, the HART bus transit center is very close.

The fastest and least expensive route is to use SR528 to I4 and then west to Tampa using the median of I4 until downtown Tampa. If they use the median of I4 they can run from tampa to the orlando airport in under an hour at 125 mph with one stop. This would allow for less than 4 hours travel time from Tampa to Miami, downtown to downtown. 3 hours to WPB from Tampa. That would be competitive with driving and should be very popular as driving to downtown Miami from Tampa via I75 is not pleasant at all! As the 2006 FL Rail Plan showed, Tampa Bay to Central FL and Tampa Bay to S Florida are 2 of the 3 most heavily traveled city pairs within Florida. Central FL to S Florida is #2. TPA to CFL is #1. TPA to SFL is #3.


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## chrsjrcj

It looks like Brightline will go the route of named trains, but don't expect a return of the Champion and Havana Special.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-selling-naming-rights-stations-trains/



> Brightline stations may soon be renamed by a corporate sponsor.
> 
> Patrick Goddard, president and COO of the company, told the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce that negotiations were in progress to sell station and train naming rights, according to Miami Today.
> 
> Other details revealed:
> 
> 
> Tickets to and from Miami will start at the same promotional prices ($10 for Smart, $15 for Select), but only for the first month. Prices will rise from there, although discounted passes and packs will be sold
> The number of daily round trips, currently 10 or 11, will rise to 16
> Work on the Orlando segment will start in the coming months
> Bicycle, taxi and other services will be integrated into the stations
> Delay of the start of service to Miami is being caused by construction issues


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> The fastest and least expensive route is to use SR528 to I4 and then west to Tampa using the median of I4 until downtown Tampa. If they use the median of I4 they can run from tampa to the orlando airport in under an hour at 125 mph with one stop. This would allow for less than 4 hours travel time from Tampa to Miami, downtown to downtown. 3 hours to WPB from Tampa. That would be competitive with driving and should be very popular as driving to downtown Miami from Tampa via I75 is not pleasant at all! As the 2006 FL Rail Plan showed, Tampa Bay to Central FL and Tampa Bay to S Florida are 2 of the 3 most heavily traveled city pairs within Florida. Central FL to S Florida is #2. TPA to CFL is #1. TPA to SFL is #3.


Talking very informally I get the impression that AAF would like to exit the Airport to the South, not the North. They apparently wish to use the SR417 alignment to get to I-4. This is a shorter route, with run through at the airport station rather than requiring a reversal.

Beyond that the impression I get is that they want to follow I-4. They don't care much about stopping at Lakeland. So that eliminates all the jiggery pokery with CSX that is discussed by the proposer of the scheme above. Additionally their inclination would be to place their station in the vicinity of Tampa Airport rather than at TUS. The TUS bit is a Railfan's dream that is unlikely to materialize, for the reasons you state.

AAF's style is to minimize risk for maximum transport advantage, and that would cause them to avoid downtown Lakeland and TUS. But of course, we will see. If they had owned a huge parcel of land in the downtown Lakeland, that would have changed the equation I suppose.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fastest and least expensive route is to use SR528 to I4 and then west to Tampa using the median of I4 until downtown Tampa. If they use the median of I4 they can run from tampa to the orlando airport in under an hour at 125 mph with one stop. This would allow for less than 4 hours travel time from Tampa to Miami, downtown to downtown. 3 hours to WPB from Tampa. That would be competitive with driving and should be very popular as driving to downtown Miami from Tampa via I75 is not pleasant at all! As the 2006 FL Rail Plan showed, Tampa Bay to Central FL and Tampa Bay to S Florida are 2 of the 3 most heavily traveled city pairs within Florida. Central FL to S Florida is #2. TPA to CFL is #1. TPA to SFL is #3.
> 
> 
> 
> Talking very informally I get the impression that AAF would like to exit the Airport to the South, not the North. They apparently wish to use the SR417 alignment to get to I-4. This is a shorter route, with run through at the airport station rather than requiring a reversal.Beyond that the impression I get is that they want to follow I-4. They don't care much about stopping at Lakeland. So that eliminates all the jiggery pokery with CSX that is discussed by the proposer of the scheme above. Additionally their inclination would be to place their station in the vicinity of Tampa Airport rather than at TUS. The TUS bit is a Railfan's dream that is unlikely to materialize, for the reasons you state.
> 
> AAF's style is to minimize risk for maximum transport advantage, and that would cause them to avoid downtown Lakeland and TUS. But of course, we will see. If they had owned a huge parcel of land in the downtown Lakeland, that would have changed the equation I suppose.
Click to expand...

To clarify, I meant that they would likely use the old FL HSR route south through the airport and then northwest towards the Orlando convention center meeting back up with SR528 somewhere east of I4. Although they could easily use SR417 as the way to get to I4. They already have experience negotiating with CFX and FDOT to gain access to the ROW.
I had not heard of them being interested in a stop further west in Tampa near the airport. There isn't much land available for new TOD and a station in that area of Tampa. What is available will be expensive as westshore is one of the most popular business districts anywhere with high rents and very high occupancy rates. The section of north downtown close to I275 offers more vacant lots or low quality structures that could be bought cheaply and easily be torn down to build TOD and a station.

Of course they have to first get to Orlando! Otherwise, this talk is all napkin drawing we are engaging in haha

Edit: the heavy maintainence facility will be built south of the airport. The design shows mainline tracks on the north edge of the facility curving to the west.


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## jis

I might run into someone from Brightline at the FRPC Meeting this Friday. If I do I'll ask and most likely s/he will say that s/he doesn't know.






I am not sure they know for sure what they might actually do between Orlando Airport and I-4 at this time. Various options are being or will be considered possibly, sort of like it was about getting to SR528 from the FEC alignment. I have not seen much evidence that they hae started any serious work on it so far. I think they have done more concrete work related to Jacksonville than Tampa at present.

I am almost certain that they do not have any fixed plan for what they will do in Tampa, except maybe some general principles that are similar to those used to select the station locations in their current project. I suspect whatever they choose will have rather good local transport connectivity, and if possible connectivity to the airport via some form of efficient shuttle bus or some such. I doubt they will build a station in the middle of a residential neighborhood or at a place where it is hard to get good local transport connectivity. And finally, they will choose the most cost effective option.


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## Brian_tampa

The reason why I think SR528 to I4 using the old FLHSR route is still in play is that I know that AAF has been working with FDOT during the design of portions of the I4 Ultimate project that will impact the median of I4 between SR528 and US27. FDOT has basically cleared the median for AAF to use west of SR528 once I4 Ultimate is fully built.

I agree with what u say about their process of choosing station sites. The north downtown site next to I275 is adjacent to the Marion Transit Center for busses in Hillsborough County. There are long term plans to build a rail connection from downtown to the airport using the I275 median through West Tampa.

But the main determining factor for both Jacksonville and Tampa is what city will bring in the most profit. That will include potential TOD at each terminal. There are pros and cons for both cities. Cons: Tampa has higher costs to construct the new route. Jacksonville has limited TOD potential due to the convention center and already planned transportation infrastructure in the preferred station location area.

Pros: Tampa has better ridership potential and more TOD possibilities. Jacksonville is cheaper to construct and easier to get running.


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## Anderson

(1) I think there's a case for a Disney World stop if Disney is inclined to cooperate (which might involve some sort of "sidebar" off of I-4; frankly, a good candidate would be roughly where the Casting Building is or the gas station next door...it's not at one of the parks [1] but it's within the general network of the Disney bus system.

(2) Going via SR-528/I-4 also includes the not-insignificant advantage of being able to potentially add an OCCC/Sea World stop (at least for some trains). I don't see this as a short-term item, but I could see it as a longer-term thing. TBH this looks like a better option than running a streetcar/light rail line to the airport (or probably than running Sunrail to the airport on its own...in the end it might just be cheaper and better to build some sort of track interchange and let Brightline dictate frequencies).

(3) Lakeland is probably an incidental concern. It's not the smallest city in the region, but playing all of those games to move the line from two miles outside of downtown (probably with much better TOD options; you've got a lot of open space out by I-4, so there's room to really grow a development in some places and other places you could probably acquire and repurpose some neighboring land...and looking at an overhead shot of the I-4/US-98 interchange, the interstate's median widens substantially, almost like it was...I dunno, planned to have a station there?) to downtown with limited TOD.

(4) Ok, Tampa. You have a wide preserved median on I-4 that could easily fit a station out by Ybor City. Same thing west of downtown. There's a mile or three of area between these stretches on I-4 and I-275, however, that doesn't look like it has a decent ROW. Also of note is the fact that the Marion Transit Center is here.

Looking at Tampa Union Station, /if I wanted to use it/ I'd stay on I-4 until Nuccio Parkway/12th Avenue (conveniently about where the wide median ends) and then cut over that way. You're probably looking at about a 1500-2500' connection there. The problem is getting /past/ Union Station, since the tracks run down the middle of Polk Street and you have both one overhead footbridge and a parking garage stradding the tracks to deal with. Between that and the fact that those tracks are CSX's access to Port Tampa, I think you have a very real problem here...but at the same time, the I-4/I-275 interchange might be enough of a mess that this is more feasible to work with. I guess the other question is whether, if this were happening regardless, Tampa/Hillsborough County would look to piggyback a commuter rail operation on this (a la Tri-Rail)? If they're interested (much as if Jacksonville is interested in something towards St. Augustine), that might pick up some of the tab.

Ideally, I think Brightline would want two stations in Tampa (one somewhere vaguely near downtown and one at the airport) since I see the airport as sort-of an afterthought here. I think stub-ending near Ybor City might also be a viable short-term solution, too, since dealing with that chunk of freeway mess and/or downtown is a nightmare (and a stupidly expensive one at that) in my mind. I just don't see any particularly good options for dealing with that.

Finally, I think Jacksonville will come first. It is cheaper, they already own the whole ROW, etc. There's more ridership to be had on the Tampa line, but there's also a lot more work and expense involved.


[1] I actually think a station at one of the parks is a questionable idea for various reasons, not least of which is that grade crossing in the Epcot idea. However, I also think this comes back to "How will Disney interact with us?" insofar as if WDW were willing to commit to cutting most or all of the DMX buses it might help take some sting out of any messing with the routing.


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## Pere Flyer

If/when all phases have been built out, would we see any reduction of Amtrak Florida service? Perhaps through ticketing and/or connecting services?

Also, what might the infill stations be on a WPB-JAX stretch? I can see Gainesville as a contender.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## chrsjrcj

Pere Flyer said:


> If/when all phases have been built out, would we see any reduction of Amtrak Florida service? Perhaps through ticketing and/or connecting services?
> 
> Also, what might the infill stations be on a WPB-JAX stretch? I can see Gainesville as a contender.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Amtrak and AAF will have no through ticketing, it's one of the ways they got around STB regulations. Besides, there are only 2 long distance trains serving Florida and they serve an entirely different demographic.

Gainesville is over 50 miles away from the FEC. In fact, it's been decades since a railroad mainline ran through Gainesville.


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## jis

Pere Flyer said:


> If/when all phases have been built out, would we see any reduction of Amtrak Florida service? Perhaps through ticketing and/or connecting services?
> 
> Also, what might the infill stations be on a WPB-JAX stretch? I can see Gainesville as a contender.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


There is absolutely zero chance that Gainesville will be served by AAF. Might be a good time to crack open a map of Florida to refresh geographical knowledge relevant to this discussion.

We know that Brevard County is negotiating with AAF for initially one and eventually possibly two stations. The re are three candidate locations that have been shortlisted from an original list of nine. The most likely location for the first station appears to be in the Cocoa/Rockledge area where FECI owns a large parcel of land. We know that Fort Pierce has started talking to AAF

North of Cocoa when/if service is extended to JAX I would suspect Daytona and St. Augustine as lead candidates in addition to JAX, but those will come after the Orlando service commences and the fillin station(s) between WPB and Orlando Airport go into service.


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## VentureForth

Disney is a paradox. On one hand, it would give Brightline more passengers than it world ever need to remain solvent. On the other hand, it would be REALLY crowded, particularly on short routes, potentially log jamming availability for through passengers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## jis

The other paradox that I have heard about from a few people familiar with Disney's business practices is that Disney actually may not want them there, and may actually prefer picking their customers up at the airport, as they consider that as part of the Disney experience. I have no idea about the veracity of that, but this has been stated by several including at least one person from AAF.

Of course with a non-cooperative Disney, there is close to zero chance of getting a station at Disney.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> The other paradox that I have heard about from a few people familiar with Disney's business practices is that Disney actually may not want them there, and may actually prefer picking their customers up at the airport, as they consider that as part of the Disney experience. I have no idea about the veracity of that, but this has been stated by several including at least one person from AAF.
> 
> Of course with a non-cooperative Disney, there is close to zero chance of getting a station at Disney.


As a former WDW employee, I can attest that used to be the case. They don't seem to care that much any more (Mears was certainly no Disney experience but operated exclusively for decades). They go in phases from wanting to control everything to nothing. It's like Space Mountain - wandering in the dark. I will almost guarantee one thing, though. They will want a piece of any action on their property. They will assuredly be on the receiving side of cash.
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## cirdan

jis said:


> The other paradox that I have heard about from a few people familiar with Disney's business practices is that Disney actually may not want them there, and may actually prefer picking their customers up at the airport, as they consider that as part of the Disney experience. I have no idea about the veracity of that, but this has been stated by several including at least one person from AAF.
> 
> Of course with a non-cooperative Disney, there is close to zero chance of getting a station at Disney.


Attitudes can change over time.

Paris Disney has a TGV sttaion, and the next stop along is the airport, so the overall situation is pretty comparable.


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## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other paradox that I have heard about from a few people familiar with Disney's business practices is that Disney actually may not want them there, and may actually prefer picking their customers up at the airport, as they consider that as part of the Disney experience. I have no idea about the veracity of that, but this has been stated by several including at least one person from AAF.
> 
> Of course with a non-cooperative Disney, there is close to zero chance of getting a station at Disney.
> 
> 
> 
> Attitudes can change over time.
> 
> Paris Disney has a TGV sttaion, and the next stop along is the airport, so the overall situation is pretty comparable.
Click to expand...

Disney's number one asset is their very private property. If they even get an inkling they'll lose control over their real estate, they will fight.
The international locations, I can't comment on, other than Tokyo. That's a franchise park and it took 10 years to get a station adjacent and another 10 for their monorail.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## jis

in my experience what happens in Europe generally provides a very poor model for what might happen in the US, specially when it relates to the rail transport mode.


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## AGM.12

One thing not noted is that quite a few of the AAF executives have ties, either directly or indirectly, with Disney. These connections could be an asset no matter the route Brightline takes.


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## jis

AGM.12 said:


> One thing not noted is that quite a few of the AAF executives have ties, either directly or indirectly, with Disney. These connections could be an asset no matter the route Brightline takes.


Exactly, and those ties could be used to establish either an additional station, or a seamless interoperating connectivity to Disney Shuttles at the Airport station.

The latter would appear to be a much less expensive alternative, and easily put in place from day 1. Any build out from Orlando Airport is many many years away, maybe even a decade away.


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## Brian_tampa

Don Robinson and Mike Reininger had previous jobs at Disney and maybe one or two others at AAF did as well. Don left over a year ago and Mike is leaving once they open the Miami station.

However, there are several left at AAF who worked on the FL HSR project and probably had knowledge of or involved in the early negotiations with Disney for a stop at WDW along I-4. AAF could still have a stop in the median of I4 at WDW no matter if they choose to use SR417 or SR528 to get from the airport to I4.

If AAF ever does expand to Tampa, serving WDW shouldn't be too hard even if the stop proves very popular. An additional trainset could be used for local round trips between the Airport and WDW with a train every 30 minutes. Perhaps with some incentives/agreements, it could be a Disney branded train running on AAF tracks.


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## Brian_tampa

Just saw this in the Orlando Business Journal.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/03/22/orlando-international-airport-exec-share-more-on.html

Fair use excerpt:

The $3.5 billion Brightline train will soon be moving into the airport's Intermodal Terminal Facility where it, along with SunRail and an undetermined light rail, will be housed.

Stan Thornton, Greater Orlando Aviation Authority COO, said the crew will be moving in as early as next week. "They are going to start setting up in their office in the Intermodal Terminal Facility that they've been constructing out. Planning and engineering officers are going to be down in there," said Thornton.

Thornton added that with the latest conversations between the airport and Brightline officials, it looks like they will be ready to start construction on the property in June/July where there will be physical construction on the airport's property. "What they've told us is that from the time they actually start, they have a 30-month construction schedule to get that done," Thornton said.


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## chrsjrcj

To back that up, the FEC Industries website lists 6 openings in Orlando- www.feci.com/careers-employment-listings.php


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## chrsjrcj

Did a quick round trip this morning to take advantage of the 50% off promo. Only a handful of people going south on the first train of the day. Coming back north on the first train out of Fort Lauderdale there were 150 people on board: Select class was sold out plus another 100 people in Smart. Most were going to the boat show. I wonder how many people took advantage of the promo?

Brightline is running a free shuttle from the station to the Palm Beach Outlets Mall (5 to 10 minutes away), but I didn't see anyone taking advantage of it. The Easter Bunny was also onboard, passing out free candy and taking pictures with other riders.

With snowbird season winding down, I imagine ridership will drop off a little. That said, when Miami opens, I can see this thing really take off. This weekend is also the Miami Ultra music festival, and Tri-Rail has been running an extra late night train leaving Miami after 1:30 am to accommodate attendees. I imagine Brightline will do something similar next year, and with Miami Heat games.


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## GBNorman

Something tells me that when I "come on down" next January (I'm already booked at Marriott "catty corner" to Arsht Center in Miami) for a Cleveland Orchestra concert, I will be able to take a joyride right from Miami Central.

I know both here and at other sites at which I participate, I have been highly skeptical of this initiative. If they do build it out to McCoy, who knows if they will make any $$$ at doing so, for being privately held, AAF can be completely opaque "about everything". Maybe they believe they can justify higher rents and occupancies at the properties parent FECI has or will acquire in the vicinity of the three Southern stations (not much chance for that at MCO); but the public will never know because "we don't have to tell you".


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## Brian_tampa

Mr. Norman, AAF is already making plans to start construction to Orlando in July 2018. They have already been hiring professionals and management to oversee the construction of phase 2. There will be 4 construction areas with separate project managers responsible for overseeing work in each area. AAF has also been laying the groundwork to get to MCO by recently agreeing to pay for a land transfer between the CFX, GOAA, and the city of Orlando near the airport. This is in the latest GOAA Board meeting agenda for next week for their approval. They have also paid out monies to GOAA for other miscellaneous items such as security fencing and to an account set up by FDOT to help construct the new Wekiva (edit: is the Osceola Parkway, my mistake) parkway east of the airport that is on the Mormon church land (Deseret Ranch). That was part of the complex deal reached in 2013/14 so that CFX could obtain another 200ft of land from Deseret Ranch along SR528 that AAF has already paid CFX $12M for. All I am saying is that phase 2 is happening now even if it might not be visible to the general public.

Also, AAF Stations LLC owns the TOD at each south Florida station, not FECI. AAF Operations LLC operates the trains and is responsible for any rail related expenses or profits. I know (through the property appraiser office records search) that AAF affiliated companies have bought additional property in FTL that is not part of the immediate station and garage development area. There are more opportunities for AAF Stations LLC than just at the stations.

Edit: Re Miami station- I read somewhere that crews were working hard to get the north half the station open first in order to meet the deadline of April. That is how they will open the station so soon even though it looks like it isn't ready.


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## Brian_tampa

Unrelated, the GOAA board is also to consider an agenda item to officially name the ITF center at MCO the "Rick Scott and Ann Scott ITF". I guess that when Gov Scott approved spending several $100M of state monies on the ITF, it was an important decision personaly for Gov Scott. I will have to stomach seeing that name every time I go there in return for it being built! LOL


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Unrelated, the GOAA board is also to consider an agenda item to officially name the ITF center at MCO the "Rick Scott and Ann Scott ITF". I guess that when Gov Scott approved spending several $100M of state monies on the ITF, it was an important decision personaly for Gov Scott. I will have to stomach seeing that name every time I go there in return for it being built! LOL


In all fairness, we're only talking about this project having _happened_ because he put a fork in the previous HSR project, giving AAF an opening.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unrelated, the GOAA board is also to consider an agenda item to officially name the ITF center at MCO the "Rick Scott and Ann Scott ITF". I guess that when Gov Scott approved spending several $100M of state monies on the ITF, it was an important decision personaly for Gov Scott. I will have to stomach seeing that name every time I go there in return for it being built! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> In all fairness, we're only talking about this project having _happened_ because he put a fork in the previous HSR project, giving AAF an opening.
Click to expand...

Yes and that fork quite possibly could have been tainted (See Hollingsworth). There was bipartisan support in the FL legislature for HSR and it would have been built but for one man. Scott was very divisive during his first 2 or 3 years in office. He has led the charge against good growth management regulations as well as environmental laws in general. Even previous Republican governors in recent history have never rolled back rules and signed new laws in such a way that benefit developers at the expense of the environment here. I could go on about how much harm he has done. AAF is probably one of the few good things to come out of his being Governor.


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## jis

And frankly even on AAF he had to be brought to the table kicking and screaming. I would actually love to see some day what the quid pro quo was.


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unrelated, the GOAA board is also to consider an agenda item to officially name the ITF center at MCO the "Rick Scott and Ann Scott ITF". I guess that when Gov Scott approved spending several $100M of state monies on the ITF, it was an important decision personaly for Gov Scott. I will have to stomach seeing that name every time I go there in return for it being built! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> In all fairness, we're only talking about this project having _happened_ because he put a fork in the previous HSR project, giving AAF an opening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes and that fork quite possibly could have been tainted (See Hollingsworth). There was bipartisan support in the FL legislature for HSR and it would have been built but for one man. Scott was very divisive during his first 2 or 3 years in office. He has led the charge against good growth management regulations as well as environmental laws in general. Even previous Republican governors in recent history have never rolled back rules and signed new laws in such a way that benefit developers at the expense of the environment here. I could go on about how much harm he has done. AAF is probably one of the few good things to come out of his being Governor.
Click to expand...

Yes...given that it's a political animal and given how broad the support was for HSR, I remember (after the courts said he had the ability to reject the money...IIRC the view more or less said that the legislature couldn't just jam a bill through over his veto on the topic) wondering what would have happened if the legislature had decided to throw him out a month into office over the decision (treating an impeachment like a VONC...something that I truly think we'd be better off if we saw happen more often in this country).

I digress, though: Back in January I got to see something happen that I've seen people lack the _context_ to comprehend. I'm actually hopeful that we'll see a decent system get built up in FL, and it won't be buried in mountains of red tape and state/federal fights and subject to Robert Moses-style financial planning. So even if he blundered his way into a positive contribution, I'm just as happy to let his name go on the frakking station.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> I digress, though: Back in January I got to see something happen that I've seen people lack the _context_ to comprehend. I'm actually hopeful that we'll see a decent system get built up in FL, and it won't be buried in mountains of red tape and state/federal fights and subject to Robert Moses-style financial planning. So even if he blundered his way into a positive contribution, I'm just as happy to let his name go on the frakking station.


I think AAF will expand (or at least announce it) to Tampa and/or Jacksonville eventually by 2025, which is what they need to become a truly viable and useful system for Florida. Let's face it, the Orlando station at the airport by itself is not the best situation for them either, other than it is a source of alot of passengers. AAF is primarily a real estate development entity that runs trains to or near its properties. AAF needs more TOD in the Tampa and Jacksonville downtown areas as that is where the real money to be made is with any expansion. 
The Orlando airport could become the hub of a future Florida passenger rail network. It is centrally located and offers connectivity to the rest of the world - something that is only seen in Asia and Europe with the level of integration between modes that is planned at MCO. The Brightline station will be at the heart of the new international terminal when it gets fully built out in 15 or so years.

Because Florida has historically been, and still is, greatly influenced (some would say run) by developers, there is little chance that the state would get in the way of AAF expanding after Orlando has been connected. Look at how the Treasure Coast has lost almost every effort they have made to stop phase 2? There is a reason for that. The same reasons HSR had bipartisan support: it means more tourists and RE development for Florida in general.


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## jis

In other news Orlando International just became the busiest airport in Florida beating out Miami International for the first time, and that is even before any of Terminal C is in service.

OIA (MCO) has upto 10+13 new gates in the works for the immediate future and huge room to grow (physically) as against the space constrained Miami International. I wonder if there are any implications of this on AAF down the line, in a manner of speaking.



Anderson said:


> I digress, though: Back in January I got to see something happen that I've seen people lack the _context_ to comprehend. I'm actually hopeful that we'll see a decent system get built up in FL, and it won't be buried in mountains of red tape and state/federal fights and subject to Robert Moses-style financial planning.


The would be not for the lack of trying though by many Republicans and even a few Democrats in the State Legislature. But then again, it is Florida afterall, the land of random political skullduggery


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brightline has moved personnel into the ITF station at MCO. Things are moving along quite nicely in Orlando for AAF.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/03/28/whats-next-now-that-brightline-crews-have-moved.html

On another subject, with Amtrak seeming to discontinue running charter and special trains, Brightline is now looking like they are the only ones who know how to run good passenger rail service in this country. BL is offering to run charters and special trains for events such as ball games and other major festivals that go late into the night. If they can keep this promise and maintain hourly service all day and evening, they will become a vital and needed service here in Florida. Unlike Amtrak that has two once a day trains in Florida that are of not much use to most people.


----------



## AGM.12

Looking ahead, Brightline mentioned that one market for its services would be Atlanta to Charlotte. Once they get to Charlotte, theoretically, would they be in a position to bid on running the North Carolina supported services currently operated by Amtrak? It would seem to be a logical extension to go all the way to Raleigh and tap into that real estate market. Who knows? maybe get a piece of the SEHSR action and head for Richmond and on north.


----------



## Brian_tampa

As far as expanding to the SE HSR corridor between Atlanta and Raleigh... well let's just say that Wes Edens (Founder of Fortress Investment Group, and he seems to actively support the concept of HrSR with TOD) is friends with one of the biggest RE developers in the Carolinas. I don't recall the name of the developer but he specifically mentioned wanting to have a BL type of service for the Atlanta to NC market. So who knows what the future may bring? IMO it is all about what terms that AAF/FECI can reach with the potential host railroads. If AAF can bring upgrades such as double tracking and increased speeds to the route in exchange for performance guarantees (like what they have with FECR), then I can definitely see AAF working with NS on this particular route.

I think BL Florida will be isolated operationally for many decades. I can instead see isolated corridors that will be developed independently from each other. Maybe sharing trainset types and other efficiencies much like Southwest Airlines takes advantage of with a single type of plane.


----------



## blueman271

https://www.facebook.com/groups/fecrailway/permalink/1736809049713468/

According to the Florida East Coast Railway Society group on facebook, Brightline started running test trains to MiamiCentral yesterday.


----------



## pennyk

I was told today, while at the WPB station, that service to Miami will start in mid-April. That employee also informed me that service to Orlando should start in 18 months (which I do not believe).

The Select class car was full from Ft. Lauderdale to WPB, however, it was virtually empty on my return trip back to Ft. Lauderdale.

I was impressed with the stations, the train and the employees.


----------



## jis

By their own admission construction completion is 18 months from July. [emoji57]

So expect service some three to six months after that.

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## Anderson

I'm trying to remember where Brightline mentioned that particular city pair...IIRC, Atlanta-Charlotte is one of the "big" city pairs that are ripe (along with some of the Texas pairs).

I tend to agree that we're likely to see the growth of some disconnected lines/limited systems.

As to the start schedule, I find that to be believable. That would put start-of-service in late spring 2020...which, I feel compelled to note, is less time than some _studies_ have taken as well as having dealt with both frivilous lawsuits and not having had on-hand federal money to work with.

Edit: The mid-April timeline feels reasonable. Sigh...looks like I'll be taking another trip to Florida this spring;-)


----------



## GBNorman

pennyk said:


> I was told today, while at the WPB station, that service to Miami will start in mid-April. That employee also informed me that service to Orlando should start in 18 months (which I do not believe).


Ms. Penny K, if that was "Sunshine Gal", or otherwise the Station Manager at West Palm, I had a meet up with her myself on my January joyride.

Note the photo linked by Mr. Blueman in his immediate posting. Note the hard hats, the safety mesh, and that the non-rail structure could hardly be called complete. Even if rail has now been laid into the station (I could not tell waiting at the Government Center Metro station through a delay - and the apprehension I was feeling over the growing possibility of missing my flight home from MIA), that hardly makes it ready to handle revenue passengers. AAF has had enough safety issues (party at fault notwithstanding) since service started; need they add one arising from a revenue passenger injury?

But the gal at WP is a spokesman for AAF, and apparently the "party line" is now two more weeks for Miami Central service.

Ask me, and the answer will be closer to Xmas than Easter.


----------



## pennyk

GBNorman said:


> Ms. Penny K, if that was "Sunshine Gal", or otherwise the Station Manager at West Palm, I had a meet up with her myself on my January joyride.
> 
> But the gal at WP is a spokesman for AAF, and apparently the "party line" is now two more weeks for Miami Central service.


The person to whom I spoke in WPB was a male employee and not a "gal" (woman). I believe he was a rank and file employee just checking on those of us in the Select waiting area. He was very friendly and went around asking waiting passengers if we had any questions.


----------



## jis

A dude instead of a gal eh?

So should we believe someone who has a stake in it or someone who has spent all his time saying only negative things and until yesterday firmly believed it won’t run at all? [emoji848] [emoji57]

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## VentureForth

This is what I could see of the Miami from the neighboring light rail platform. If they open this month, it'll be a miracle.


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## jis

Since they just started testing last week, I would guess at the earliest by the end of the month, more likely sometime in May.

I don't think they plan to have the entire station concourse done when they start service. They will most likely have the lounge area and adequate number of platform access points done, and will finish the rest of the business area of the concourse in due course and have the businesses move in when ready.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Hm, I believe the two most western tracks (the side closest to Metrorail/Metromover) will be designated for Tri-Rail. Maybe they're focusing on the Brightline side (three eastern tracks).

If we're making a forum betting pool, I put my money on July. The sooner, the better. I look forward to taking Brightline to see the Marlins (better known today as the Yankees' farm team) and the Heat play.


----------



## GBNorman

Mr. Venture, it should be noted the photo within your immediate posting was taken from platform at the Metro Rail Government Center station, which is "heavy rail" to the same extent as is the Atlanta system, MARTA ( a system I use when there to get from "Ehh to Bee"). It is important to distinguish at that station as same is also served by Metro Mover; an automated "people mover"system.

As I've noted earlier in the topic, last January I had a "mite bit" more of a peek at what you photographed than I would have cared for. Metro Rail had "one of their delays" and I was getting quite apprehensive about making my flight home (it was OK - even if TSA at MIA is "Keystone Kops" when compared with ORD).

But "cutting to the chase", your photo is simply additional confirmation that opening by end of month is some kind of fantasy. I still hold "closer to Xmas than Easter". My January 2019 MCS-WP joyride is already planned.


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## VentureForth

In Miami with my fam on vacation, and wife won't let me carve out time to ride even FTL-WPB.





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## Steve4031

VentureForth said:


> In Miami with my fam on vacation, and wife won't let me carve out time to ride even FTL-WPB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Grounds for divorce.

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## Mystic River Dragon

Good grief, VentureForth, where are their priorities? Perhaps we will have a Gathering down there someday, and you'll be able to ride it then.

I'm betting on July for that part to open, because it seems everything I would love to be on the first ride of down there opens when it's too hot to visit!





Also, just planning ahead--what do people dress like on Brightline? Is it dressy? Corporate? Vacationer?


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## jis

When I rode it I was wearing my Cargo Pants, a typical Florida Bush Shirt and White Sneakers.

Just wear whatever comfortable clothes you would normally wear to hang out in Florida

BTW, speaking of Brightline service to Miami, the RPA/NARP plans to hold its Fall Meeting in Miami with several Brightline related events included, detail being decided.


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## Mystic River Dragon

It would be nice if there was a way to know ahead of time what color the train would be. (Oh, the pink train--I'll wear my pink shoes! Oh, the green train--now where did I put those green slacks?



)

Also, can you go to that meeting even if you don't live in Florida? Do you know the dates yet, jis? If it's late enough in the fall that it won't be too hot, I might think about it and combine it with a visit with my retired priest friend who lives in FTL. (I was going to go to the one in Philly next weekend, but one of my cousins has decided to visit then.)


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## jis

It is usually sometime in October. The dates will be officially announced at the upcoming Spring Meeting in Alexandria I think.


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## GBNorman

At the Ft. Lauderdale station:


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## GBNorman

Brightline attire (on sale $12.99 at the station Gift Shoppe):


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## jis

Tri-Rail Downtown Miami Link


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## MattW

Are they going to search Tri-Rail passengers too?


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## Anderson

Based on the layout, it seems quite possible (and probably likely) that they'll have security for Brightline but not for Tri-Rail (if only because this would be the only "secured" Tri-Rail station). Also possible is semi-random security screening for Tri-Rail, but that would probably be problematic given the relatively low frequency (e.g. someone missing the hourly walk-up commuter train because of random security is not likely to be a happy camper...or a repeat customer).


----------



## Anderson

Looking at the map for the Tri-Rail line (and trying to recall the Tri-Rail-on-FEC proposals), is there any proposal for a station anywhere between Miami Central and 79th Street down the road?


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## blueman271

Anderson said:


> Looking at the map for the Tri-Rail line (and trying to recall the Tri-Rail-on-FEC proposals), is there any proposal for a station anywhere between Miami Central and 79th Street down the road?


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe something in the vicinity of 36th Street to serve the Wynwood, Edgewater and Beverly Terrace neighborhoods.


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## jis

MattW said:


> Are they going to search Tri-Rail passengers too?


I believe that the concourses for Brightline and TriRail are entirely separate. but we'll see. Specifically I do not think that the TriRail passengers will ever come in touch with any Brightline operating staff or facility at the station.



Anderson said:


> Looking at the map for the Tri-Rail line (and trying to recall the Tri-Rail-on-FEC proposals), is there any proposal for a station anywhere between Miami Central and 79th Street down the road?


If Brightline has its way, there will be no TriRail on FEC south of West Palm Beach. The commuter operation there will be operated by Brightline using separate Commuter equipment. Naturally there will be many more stations than the ones used for Brightline Express service.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they going to search Tri-Rail passengers too?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the concourses for Brightline and TriRail are entirely separate. but we'll see. Specifically I do not think that the TriRail passengers will ever come in touch with any Brightline operating staff or facility at the station.
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the map for the Tri-Rail line (and trying to recall the Tri-Rail-on-FEC proposals), is there any proposal for a station anywhere between Miami Central and 79th Street down the road?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If Brightline has its way, there will be no TriRail on FEC south of West Palm Beach. The commuter operation there will be operated by Brightline using separate Commuter equipment. Naturally there will be many more stations than the ones used for Brightline Express service.
Click to expand...

Ok, this is the first I'm hearing of this...is Brightline gunning to actually run their own (internally-financed and internally-controlled) commuter service? Or are they shooting to get a contract with SFRTA? The second one seems most likely, though it would seem odd to have the same agency paying for two commuter lines that don't "talk" to one another. The first one actually made me a little dizzy to even _think_ about, though given that all they would seem to need would be the trains, operating crews, and perhaps some additional sidings it doesn't seem to be the usual leap to comprehend (even if I'd be surprised to see them be able to make money off of that).


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## jis

Service subsidized by the counties. The Brightline contract gives Brightline the first right to run any passenger service on FECR or something to that effect, and they have asserted their right to use that.

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## VentureForth

jis said:


> Service subsidized by the counties. The Brightline contract gives Brightline the first right to run any passenger service on FECR or something to that effect, and they have asserted their right to use that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I still don't get it. Tri Rail is literally a mile to the West. It makes plenty of stops. More trains-whoever operates it-will hurt Brightline. 
I do agree with a joint terminal for transfers.

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## chrsjrcj

Tri-Rail serves car-oriented suburbs along 95, while the FEC corridor is more transit friendly. Cities along the FEC have done a lot of work over the last couple of decades toward more pedestrian friendly and less car oriented development.


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## jis

How will running more trains that takes twice the time hurt an Express service eventually to Orlando? Does NJ Transit hurt Amtrak on the NEC? The fare differential would be similar too I suspect. Yeah Tri-Rail may be hurt a bit with Commuter Service run by Brightline on the FECR. But that is the right that they have managed to enshrine in their agreement with FECR for investing in the FECR infrastructure, and sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to do

FECR is attractive for commuter service because it runs through the down town of each town that it runs through. Tri-Rail is often significantly west of the downtown area and is more oriented towards serving auto-centric suburbia to access the Miami CBDs and Airport.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> How will running more trains that takes twice the time hurt an Express service eventually to Orlando? Does NJ Transit hurt Amtrak on the NEC? The fare differential would be similar too I suspect. Yeah Tri-Rail may be hurt a bit with Commuter Service run by Brightline on the FECR. But that is the right that they have managed to enshrine in their agreement with FECR for investing in the FECR infrastructure, and sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to do
> 
> FECR is attractive for commuter service because it runs through the down town of each town that it runs through. Tri-Rail is often significantly west of the downtown area and is more oriented towards serving auto-centric suburbia to access the Miami CBDs and Airport.


Exactly. More trains at half the speed would require significant passing tracks in addition to 100% double track. Perhaps passing tracks at commuter stations would be logical like at most Shinkansen stations. It just seems like they would be adding significant bottlenecks to a very busy line. It also doesn't help that the FEC has about 3x as many grade crossings.
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## jis

They actually have a neat simulation showing how it will work, and what additional passing tracks will need to be built. It does not bottleneck at all. If you cannot operate 3tph plus an occasional freight, in each direction on a mostly double track railroad with passing sidings at strategically placed location I suspect you do not know what you are doing.


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## Anderson

Also, something to bear in mind is that the commuter service would act as a "feeder" for the Orlando service and the presumed service to Jacksonville. In particular, I'd note that in Brightline's more aggressive projections, the FLL-WPB segment looked like it was rather "over capacity", so bleeding off some of the local traffic might help save space there (so you don't block out MIA/FLL-Orlando pax with FLL-WPB pax). Also worth considering is that any agreement would probably give Brightline the ability to stop at several of the stations of their choosing (they've indicated that they want the right to stop at six stations in South Florida in negotiations with Tri-Rail).


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Anderson said:


> Also, something to bear in mind is that the commuter service would act as a "feeder" for the Orlando service and the presumed service to Jacksonville. In particular, I'd note that in Brightline's more aggressive projections, the FLL-WPB segment looked like it was rather "over capacity", so bleeding off some of the local traffic might help save space there (so you don't block out MIA/FLL-Orlando pax with FLL-WPB pax). Also worth considering is that any agreement would probably give Brightline the ability to stop at several of the stations of their choosing (they've indicated that they want the right to stop at six stations in South Florida in negotiations with Tri-Rail).


Another thing I think they should advertise once the extension to Orlando opens is the fact that the West Palm Beach station is within walking distance from the Tri-Rail/Amtrak station, so connections could be made to local stations on Tri-Rail from Orlando.


----------



## Anderson

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, something to bear in mind is that the commuter service would act as a "feeder" for the Orlando service and the presumed service to Jacksonville. In particular, I'd note that in Brightline's more aggressive projections, the FLL-WPB segment looked like it was rather "over capacity", so bleeding off some of the local traffic might help save space there (so you don't block out MIA/FLL-Orlando pax with FLL-WPB pax). Also worth considering is that any agreement would probably give Brightline the ability to stop at several of the stations of their choosing (they've indicated that they want the right to stop at six stations in South Florida in negotiations with Tri-Rail).
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing I think they should advertise once the extension to Orlando opens is the fact that the West Palm Beach station is within walking distance from the Tri-Rail/Amtrak station, so connections could be made to local stations on Tri-Rail from Orlando.
Click to expand...

That may well come up. TBH they should consider running a shuttle of some sort: At the risk of losing some business MIA/FLL-WPB (and some parking revenue), I think the number of folks who are going to be inclined to meet the "wrong" train out of Miami to save a few bucks is likely to, at peak hours, be far outweighed by folks who either couldn't get a ticket or who're traveling from one of the other stations. Also, it would allow a "full" transfer from Miami International (where Tri-Rail terminates) to Orlando International, and I think there _is_ a market for that, depending on faring rules and the like.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Article with good photos of the Miami station interior:

https://www.thenextmiami.com/sneak-peek-inside-brightlines-terminal-at-miamicentral/


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## blueman271

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/04/17/tri-rail-wont-roll-into-downtown-miami-this-year/

Looks like Tri-Rail wont get to Downtown Miami until sometime in 2019.


----------



## VentureForth

blueman271 said:


> http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/04/17/tri-rail-wont-roll-into-downtown-miami-this-year/
> 
> Looks like Tri-Rail wont get to Downtown Miami until sometime in 2019.


How are they routing Tri-Rail?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

VentureForth said:


> blueman271 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2018/04/17/tri-rail-wont-roll-into-downtown-miami-this-year/
> 
> Looks like Tri-Rail wont get to Downtown Miami until sometime in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> How are they routing Tri-Rail?
Click to expand...

Trains will operate the normal route south to Metrorail Transfer where they will turn east via a newly built connection to a line that runs east to the FEC tracks, at which point Tri-Rail will turn south again to run alongside Brightline into Downtown Miami.


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## jis

The actual connection to FEC is south of Metro Transfer at CP Iris.

At the point Tri-Rail turns south, it basically joins the Brightline tracks to run up the ramp into Miami Central Station. Tri-Rail is assigned the westmost two tracks. Brightline has exclusive access to the eastmost three tracks at Miami Central Station.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brightline has a new schedule that goes in effect this Saturday.

My guess is they are operating dry runs to Miami, while still carrying passengers between WPB and FTL.

Also, you can't book a ride for any date starting May 12th. My guess, service is penciled in to start that date.


----------



## jis

As long as it starts before May 26th, we are good for our ride during the FECRS Annual Convention in West Palm Beach. It involves a round trip to Miami and a visit to the various facilities at Miami Central Station, similar to what we did at the West Palm Beach station last year.

New schedule in prep for extension of service to Miami:

https://gobrightline.com/trip/schedule/?utm_source=brightline&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EINFPRC1&utm_content=CTA


----------



## Anderson

...well, it looks like I might be more-or-less living in Florida next month at this rate.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

I'm going to be there to ride it on May 27th so hopefully it is open. Does anyone know what the fares are going to be yet?


----------



## GBNorman

I certainly agree that the photo spread featured at The Next Miami site reveals a darned attractive station - just as I hold about everything else coming from my two round trip joyrides this year.

Now shifting to Tri-Rail, no question whatever that to serve Downtown Miami will be a "shot in the arm" to its usefulness in providing needed transportation through the region.

Possibly, this should be addressed at a different topic, but how can both the Airport and Downtown be served efficiently and without "overservice"?

My thought is a "Hollywood Shuttle" serving alternately both terminals and same for the regular trains.


----------



## GBNorman

Adding to my "Hollywood Shuttle" thought, last week riding Atlanta's MARTA, after an Atlanta Symphony concert, from Arts Center to Dunwoody, there was a "change at Lindbergh".

During off peak hours, MARTA sees no need to have two trains chasing one another all the way from the Airport to both Doralville (Yellow) and North Springs (Red). So the late evening Red trains originate at Lindbergh immediately South of where the lines diverge.

It wasnt that inconvenient - even for an out of town rider like myself.


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## jis

It will be sometime in 2019 that Tri-Rail actually starts serving Miami Central. At least nine or ten months away, maybe more.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

As I understand it, trains will alternate between Downtown and the Airport. One difference between MARTA and Tri-Rail is that Lindbergh Center has a dedicated turn-around track and platforms on both sides of the train. Even if the infrastructure is available for such an operation, it would occur at Metrorail Transfer where it is already possible to transfer to another train to reach Downtown. For this reason and the fact that more passengers will likely go downtown than the Airport, it would make sense to have the trains from the north go downtown and the shuttles go the airport. This would mean that a large new train station with 4 platforms would be served by only shuttles. My guess is that the trains will just alternate between terminals for the foreseeable future.


----------



## GBNorman

Tri-Rail simply must continue to offer rail service into Miami Airport, for the inquiries, and resulting ranting of "waste", into why was that Intermodal Center ever built would be heard from Key West to Tallahassee (anyone ever REALLY think Amtrak was going to make use of it?)

True, a Metrorail Transfer-Airport shuttle would save train miles over Hollywood and accomplish the same purpose. It seemed to me there was more available real estate at Hollywood to build the necessary infrastructure outlined by Mr. McDonnell as exists at MARTA's Lindbergh station.


----------



## jis

If Tri-Rail is to be believed, they have already said that trains will alternate and there will be a connecting shuttle to the MIC (from Metro Transfer presumably, though it could be from further up line for operational conveience) from the trains going to Miami Central. The shuttle would actually be operated Hialeah Yard to MIC I think. So there will be more frequent service to MIC than Miami Central according to that plan. Of course 9-12 months is a long long time to change the plans a few times.

Keep in mind that there are trackage access (for FECR) and possibly other costs (e.g. dispatching fees charged by the Florida Dispatching Company) involved for Tri-Rail to go to Miami Central which it does not have for going to MIC.


----------



## chrsjrcj

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I'm going to be there to ride it on May 27th so hopefully it is open. Does anyone know what the fares are going to be yet?


Introductory will still be $10 for Smart and $15/$20 for Select (depending on demand).


----------



## jis

And we hit 100 pages on this one!


----------



## Anderson

Woohoo!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.

Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!




)

Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.
> 
> Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?


The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.

Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks for the updates, jis!


----------



## jis

> *Brightline Adds Miami Into Schedule, Service Starts Within Weeks*
> 
> Brightline’s new schedule which includes a Miami stop will begin this weekend.
> 
> Paying passengers will not yet be boarding in Miami as testing continues, but will be able to within a few weeks.
> 
> Testing has already been underway in Miami for a few weeks, but this is the first time that trains to Miami will be added to the regular schedule. In total, eleven departures per day between each city are planned.
> 
> . . . . .


https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-adds-miami-into-schedule-service-starts-in-weeks/


----------



## Brian_tampa

PB Post did a nice story on ridership today. Of 44 random trips their reporters made last month, they found an average of 50 riders per train. Or 20% load factor. Trips were made on trains at all times of day, every day of the week. Nice ridership for an initial segment between two stations 45 miles apart. I figure once Miami opens, those numbers will double or maybe triple initially. Looks good so far, no wonder they are happy with the numbers. When Orlando opens in 2021 they might have 75% plus load factors. Of course this is with reduced fares, so we shall see what happens when they raise the prices.

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-trains-look-empty-post-counts-how-many-were-board/WeNuCY7pgphQYy7Ywv6jFO/


----------



## chrsjrcj

SunFest is next weekend too, and even without Miami it should boost ridership.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most beautiful train photos I have ever seen was of the blue set, crossing the river at Jacksonville, with water and sky that lovely Florida blue, and with boats on the water in the background. It is dated December 13, 2016, and was the first to arrive.
> 
> Have they all arrived now? (I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere, but 100 pages is a lot to scroll through!
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Have they taken a class picture yet (like NS did for its Heritage series)?
> 
> 
> 
> The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
> Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.
Click to expand...

I thought that I remember reading that the WPB repair/maintenance facility could handle the longer 7 car trains. It was to be converted to a running repair/maintenance facility only after Orlando opens. The major repairs would take place in Orlando whereas WPB would handle the minor stuff as well as interior cleaning/stocking. It appears that each of the 4 tracks in the WPB facility are around 1000 feet long. Damn I wish I could keep track of all the information I have learned over the past 6 years!
Remember, once Orlando opens AAF will have to keep at least one or two trains overnight in WPB in order to allow for early departures north the next morning from Miami. Also, AAF has designed their operations to not waste money so why would they build WPB to not handle 7 car trains?


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## chrsjrcj

Well the two most western tracks, track 3 and 4, typically handle two of the trainsets with room to spare. The only issue would be the pit under track 1 which is only long enough for the current trainset length. When Orlando opens, theyll do the heavy maintenance cycles there. The pit isnt necessary to do a daily inspection on the train, but does make it a lot easier.


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## Caesar La Rock

Speaking of Orlando I took these today of the airport terminal via a bus. It looks really good.


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## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> Well the two most western tracks, track 3 and 4, typically handle two of the trainsets with room to spare. The only issue would be the pit under track 1 which is only long enough for the current trainset length. When Orlando opens, theyll do the heavy maintenance cycles there. The pit isnt necessary to do a daily inspection on the train, but does make it a lot easier.


That is what I meant. The heavy repair shop for the full consists will be in Orlando. You can certainly park several full length trains at the WPB facility.


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## GBNorman

The article appearing in Cox's Palm Beach Post linked by Brian-Tampa within his immediate, is "interesting" and, sorry volks, not surprising.

Naturally, this "introductory period" could only have low ridership, and I'm certain that AAF management was ready to accept low ridership during such. But unfortunately at this time, I can only conclude the history of AAF is that it's providing "Disneyland rides on the cheap" - and, party at fault notwithstanding, killing people in the process. The opening of Miami Central, which could happen closer to Easter than Xmas and contrary to my prediction, could well produce enough passengers actually using the service to get from "Ehh to Bee" and to justify it's continuation as a public accommodation rather than what could well at present meet the legal standard of Public Nuisance.


----------



## me_little_me

chrsjrcj said:


> SunFest is next weekend too, and even without Miami it should boost ridership.


Would it be better to have a separate thread for operational/ticketing/pricing issues vs future station/extension issues on Brightline? Now that Brightline is operational, it is no longer just one issue.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Some recent photos of the MCO station.

1- Facing south towards the future maintenance facilty

2,3,4- Platform pics

5- my son in front of the future station entrance


----------



## Anderson

I'm quite alright with seeing the thread start to split...right now we're approaching 2000 posts; more to the point, we have a "live" service that (as noted above) may be subject to all sorts of issues.

On the article: I tend to agree that WPB-FLL is a dubious "viable segment" as a stand-alone service, though it's also worth noting that taking 50 riders per train, presuming 22 trains/day (11 round-trips), and multiplying by 365 gives an annual ridership of just over 400k riders (and annual revenue in the range of about $5.5m, based on ridership distribution...I'm having to guess at revenue figures just a little bit, but $17.50/Select ticket and $10/Smart ticket at the ratios given in the article gives $5,339,950). I cannot speak to costs, but this is almost definitely not covering them. Worth noting is that Brightline has already bumped Select pricing; there will probably be further bumps (closing in on a "full" dynamic pricing model).

_However_, it does seem likely on this basis that MIA-FLL-WPB should bump those levels much closer to a million riders per year (WPB-MIA in an hour _is_ a very substantial offering), something which would probably at least get the service reasonably close to break-even (since I'm going to guess that per-passenger revenue would also bump substantially).

Edit: Let's play with some numbers, shall we? Let's presume that, with three-station service, Brightline gets the following breakdown in ridership:

-350k WPB-FLL (a modest reduction from current numbers)

-350k FLL-MIA
-400k WPB-MIA

Select pricing goes to $15-30 WPB-FLL (average price $22), $15-25 MIA-FLL (average price $20), and $20-40 MIA-FLL (average price $30). Overall, Select ridership drops to about 25% of ridership (though it's closer to 35% for the full-length market).
Smart pricing becomes slightly dynamic, going to $10-15 for either WPB-FLL (avg $12.50) or FLL-MIA (avg $12.00) and $15-20 WPB-MIA (avg $17.50).

By segment, we'd get the following:
-WPB-FLL: 75k Select ($1.65m), 275k Smart ($3.44m)

-FLL-MIA: 60k Select ($1.20m), 290k Smart ($3.48m)

-WPB-MIA: 140k Select ($4.20m), 260k Smart ($4.55m)
Overall revenue would be sitting at $18.52m/yr at that point.

I have no idea how reasonable this is or how far it would go towards covering costs.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
> 
> Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.


So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?

_Is that_ a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
> 
> Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.
> 
> 
> 
> So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?
> 
> _Is that_ a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?
Click to expand...

I suspect it was never intended to be permanent. In an ideal world, Brightline would have been able to roll out service on the whole route all at once. Obviously, among other issues, the holding-up of the loans to cover the Orlando segment slowed down construction.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
> 
> Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.
> 
> 
> 
> So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?
> 
> _Is that_ a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect it was never intended to be permanent. In an ideal world, Brightline would have been able to roll out service on the whole route all at once. Obviously, among other issues, the holding-up of the loans to cover the Orlando segment slowed down construction.
Click to expand...

I guess if a commuter service ever runs on those tracks, this would be a good place to maintain the trains for that.


----------



## jis

Interesting development regarding grade crossings maintenance costs....

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2018/05/01/brightline-pay-some-crossing-maintenance-but-not-treasure-coast/566451002/

I knew that AAF and Brevard County already has an agreement in place.


----------



## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The five short sets that were scheduled to arrive for use in the Miami - West Palm Beach Service have all arrived on property quite a while back.
> 
> Eventually there will be five more sets and all sets will get lengthened to at least 8, maybe 9 cars, by 2021. The longer sets will start arriving after the tracks are built out to Orlando Airport and the maintenance facility at Orlando Airport has become functional. long sets can only be serviced there. The West palm beach facility can only handle short sets.
> 
> 
> 
> So the WPB facility cannot be extended / modified to handle longer sets?
> 
> _Is that_ a total lack of foresight, or was this facility never intended to be permanent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect it was never intended to be permanent. In an ideal world, Brightline would have been able to roll out service on the whole route all at once. Obviously, among other issues, the holding-up of the loans to cover the Orlando segment slowed down construction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess if a commuter service ever runs on those tracks, this would be a good place to maintain the trains for that.
Click to expand...

According to AAF documents I have have seen, the WPB "workshop b" facility is permanent and will eventually be used as a running repair facility. The 4 tracks at WPB can hold 7 or 8 car trains. I am not sure how long the pit is on the east track (track 1?) Or how many cars can be positioned over it at one time. 
Workshop b has to remain in service, otherwise how do the trains get serviced overnight to allow for early morning trips north out of Miami? Last train into Miami will be close to midnight and first train out will be around 6am. I don't think you can (or would want to) do daily inspections, clean, and restock the trains at MiamiCentral station. Workshop b also has the warehouse for supplies and parts needed to keep the trains running. Using WPB for servicing trains leaves about 4 hours time between 1am and 5am to get the servicing and inspections done.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Interesting development regarding grade crossings maintenance costs....
> 
> https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2018/05/01/brightline-pay-some-crossing-maintenance-but-not-treasure-coast/566451002/
> 
> I knew that AAF and Brevard County already has an agreement in place.


I have read the letter that the General Counsel for AAF, Myles Tobin, sent Rep. Mark Meadows that Lisa Broadt briefly referenced. It is odd how Ms. Broadt (and the TC Palm in general) intentionally misrepresent or do not report on certain things. Most of the letter, which was sent as a formal response to the subcommittee members questions during the hearing, was a rather strong defense of the PAB allocation approval and the reason why AAF thinks counties should pay for grade crossing maintenance. The legal points made by Mr. Tobin tore apart the opposition's argument against allocating PABs to AAF and not paying for grade crossing maintenance.
I am so tired of so-called 'news reporters' injecting personal opinion, bias, and slanting the coverage of news instead of just reporting the facts! Ask Ms. Broadt why she did not report on the contents of the rest of the letter.


----------



## jis

TC Palm being partisan? - and incompetent in reporting? I am utterly shocked.... shocked


----------



## GBNorman

Ladies and Gents, if Jennifer Sorentrue reports it in Cox's Palm Beach Post, then believe it as news. So far as Treasure Coast sources such as TC Newspapers go, take their reporting with a "grain of salt". They and their readers have "an agenda".

Take Opinion from either source as just that: Opinion.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Anderson said:


> I'm quite alright with seeing the thread start to split...right now we're approaching 2000 posts; more to the point, we have a "live" service that (as noted above) may be subject to all sorts of issues.
> 
> On the article: I tend to agree that WPB-FLL is a dubious "viable segment" as a stand-alone service, though it's also worth noting that taking 50 riders per train, presuming 22 trains/day (11 round-trips), and multiplying by 365 gives an annual ridership of just over 400k riders (and annual revenue in the range of about $5.5m, based on ridership distribution...I'm having to guess at revenue figures just a little bit, but $17.50/Select ticket and $10/Smart ticket at the ratios given in the article gives $5,339,950). I cannot speak to costs, but this is almost definitely not covering them. Worth noting is that Brightline has already bumped Select pricing; there will probably be further bumps (closing in on a "full" dynamic pricing model).
> 
> _However_, it does seem likely on this basis that MIA-FLL-WPB should bump those levels much closer to a million riders per year (WPB-MIA in an hour _is_ a very substantial offering), something which would probably at least get the service reasonably close to break-even (since I'm going to guess that per-passenger revenue would also bump substantially).
> 
> Edit: Let's play with some numbers, shall we? Let's presume that, with three-station service, Brightline gets the following breakdown in ridership:
> 
> -350k WPB-FLL (a modest reduction from current numbers)
> 
> -350k FLL-MIA
> 
> -400k WPB-MIA
> 
> Select pricing goes to $15-30 WPB-FLL (average price $22), $15-25 MIA-FLL (average price $20), and $20-40 MIA-FLL (average price $30). Overall, Select ridership drops to about 25% of ridership (though it's closer to 35% for the full-length market).
> 
> Smart pricing becomes slightly dynamic, going to $10-15 for either WPB-FLL (avg $12.50) or FLL-MIA (avg $12.00) and $15-20 WPB-MIA (avg $17.50).
> 
> By segment, we'd get the following:
> 
> -WPB-FLL: 75k Select ($1.65m), 275k Smart ($3.44m)
> 
> -FLL-MIA: 60k Select ($1.20m), 290k Smart ($3.48m)
> 
> -WPB-MIA: 140k Select ($4.20m), 260k Smart ($4.55m)
> 
> Overall revenue would be sitting at $18.52m/yr at that point.
> 
> I have no idea how reasonable this is or how far it would go towards covering costs.


I think the real question is how are their real estate investments doing.


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## blueman271

Brightline service to MiamiCentral starting May 19.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article210916549.html


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## AGM.12

I wonder if the Brightline people considered contacting the Gold Coast railroad museum to maybe spot one of their FEC pacifics next to a Brightline train, or some other appropriate display?


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## brianpmcdonnell17

The current West Palm Beach-Miami schedule appears to be 80 minutes, which is well over the promised 60 minutes.


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## jis

You will find me on the 11am out of WPB on the 19th, in case any of you happen to be riding that day. I am in Smart.

BTW, for now you may want to avoid using the iPhone iOS 11 Brightline App for buying tickets, and use the web site instead. I discovered a few interesting bugs that causes it to simply crash and lose all info at the most inopportune moments (as if there are opportune moments for such).

One thing that was refreshing is that I got to talk to someone knowledgeable about the bug, and at least the App works with a preexisting ticket for bringing it up for display at the gate etc.


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## Anderson

Jis,

I'll be coming back into WPB then. I'm on the 0700.


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## Anderson

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The current West Palm Beach-Miami schedule appears to be 80 minutes, which is well over the promised 60 minutes.


I am seeing that as well. There seems to be padding for OTP (I noticed that we cleared WPB-FLL in 35 minutes back in January). they can probably pull a few minutes out once they're confident of timely boarding, etc.


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## jis

I think there is much more padding between FLL and Miami. I believe the best possible time between WPB and FLL is around 32 mins or so without violating speed limits, pushing the trains to their max capability with precise acceleration and deceleration.


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## Anderson

So, I've checked the timetables for Monday (21 May) and then checked Friday (25 May). Here's what I get:



Code:


 WPB  |   A FLL D   |  MIA  |
0515  | 0555 | 0557 |  0635 |  
0700  | 0740 | 0742 |  0820 |  
0800  | 0840 | ---- |  0900 |  
1100  | 1140 | 1142 |  1220 |  
1200  | 1240 | 1242 |  1320 |  
1500  | 1540 | 1542 |  1620 |  
1600  | 1640 | 1642 |  1720 |  
1800  | 1840 | 1842 |  1920 |  
2100  | 2140 | 2142 |  2220 | Fri

 MIA  |   A FLL D   |  WPB  |
0710  | 0743 | 0745 |  0830 |
0910  | 0943 | 0945 |  1030 |
1010  | 1043 | 1045 |  1130 |
1310  | 1343 | 1345 |  1430 |
1410  | 1443 | 1445 |  1530 |
1710  | 1743 | 1745 |  1830 |
1810  | 1843 | 1845 |  1930 |
2010  | 2043 | 2045 |  2130 |
2310  | 2343 | 2345 |  0030 | Fri

Looking at this, they've nominally achieved the 60-minute timing on the 0800 from West Palm Beach. I am very tempted to pop down during the week to mark time on that train, but seeing as Fort Lauderdale is discharge-only they probably have a little more confidence in that. I'm not quite sure I buy 20 minutes FLL-MIA, but I /do/ buy 25 minutes (which you basically have given probable time-keeping WPB-FLL). For reference, weekend service is a "straight" every-other-hour service (odd hours on the hour depart WPB southbound, odd hours plus 10 minutes depart MIA northbound).

The reduction in service from the initial schedule doesn't entirely shock me, but it does surprise me a little bit. I can't blame them for shedding some off-hour services (according to one news article, some of those were running near-empty), but I'm still a little surprised that it's 8x daily (9x Fridays). I'm also a little surprised at the one train skipping boardings at Fort Lauderdale (I would personally think that the 0900 arrival in downtown Miami would be the best train to pull in commuter traffic on that segment).

On weekdays, the current timetable only requires three sets to operate (it needs two for most of the day, but there's an "extra" morning train and an "extra" evening train that can't turn in time) out of the five sets. On weekends, I think it only needs two sets.

I'm going to stand by my expectation that 5-10 minutes may come out of the timetable in a few months (once they have a better feel for pax turnover on the platform at FLL) but I think achieving near-100% OTP is vital to them. I can't blame them.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I think there is much more padding between FLL and Miami. I believe the best possible time between WPB and FLL is around 32 mins or so without violating speed limits, pushing the trains to their max capability with precise acceleration and deceleration.


Acceleration will decrease later when additional cars are added.

So maybe they don't want to create a situation where an existing service is degraded, and are thus already using the acceleration enevelope of future full length sets for sceduling purposes?


----------



## Anderson

@Cirdan: That is possible, but let us presume that 35 minutes is the "floor" under a heavier train for the 42-43 miles on the West Palm-Fort Lauderdale route. I find it hard to believe that it would take an additional 40 minutes to get to MiamiCentral, which is only about 26-27 miles further. I find it further hard to believe that it takes 60 minutes with a "tap and go" at FLL (e.g. still stoping but without timetabled pax pickups) but 80 minutes with passenger loading. I would frankly find it hard to believe that adding the stop would add 20 minutes (I'd think around 5-7 minutes would be a reasonable guess...5 minutes for deceleration/acceleration and 2 minutes for the stop per the timetable; I'd allow 10 without a fight to be on the safe side).

Like I said, my best guess is that Brightline wants a timetable they _will_ keep. I can understand this. However, I also think they've over-padded versus what is needed since it seems clear they don't want to deliver pax late to Fort Lauderdale in either direction. 70-72 minutes would seem to be sufficient given the equipment and distances. If the timetables are still sitting at 80 minutes in five months, I'll be quite curious indeed as to the reason. I'm also inclined to ride the "express" once or twice and "clock" it to see if it's making the run in 60 minutes, and I'm going to try and "clock" the first run as well (the first trip back in January did its run in 35 minutes, for reference).


----------



## Brian_tampa

I have also been told that there is a bit more track work ongoing at this time. New crossovers being installed over the whole WPB to MIA route. So that is part of reason for the slower schedule. I heard that the reason for the gaps in the schedule is to allow for local freights to have access during the afternoon until the crossovers get installed.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Yup, still missing a crossover south of WPB at least.

The 8:00 super express was a scheduling mistake. It’s been fixed now.


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## jis

We will know quite a bit of the real lowdown the weekend after Memorial Day weekend, at the FECRS Annual Convention in West Palm Beach, which has an entire day with Brightline - visit to facilities and train rides.


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## chrsjrcj

Unfortunately out of town for that weekend (Ill actually be on the Cap/SM). Ironic since its in my hometown. Ill only learn whats passed down through social media afterwards.


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## jis

Article about Quiet Zone in West Palm Beach....

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/new-all-eyes-brightline-now-west-palm-quiet-zone-starts/RVWGWHte2JFrNt6JhbYIBL/


----------



## chrsjrcj

As of this posting, the 7 am, 9 am, 11 am, 1 pm, and 3 pm southbound departures are completely sold out for 5/19. I wonder if it makes any economic sense for BL to schedule a 3rd trainset for opening weekend.


----------



## Anderson

Economic sense? No. They put low fares into place to encourage ridership. In terms of PR it might make sense to grab all of the equipment they can and run it, but the odds of a sold-out train covering its costs at $3/5 per seat are pretty low (revenue per run would run somewhere in the range of $850-950, depending on whether there's any significant turnover at FLL; 48 Select seats and 198 Smart seats filled at $5 and $3, respectively, provides $834 in revenue), though it would probably still be at least passable cost recovery. After taking the NARP discount, I paid a whopping $9 round-trip in Select WPB-MIA (which is, in terms of cost-per-mile, one of the cheapest train tickets I've ever purchased...I'm used to yields in the range of $0.20-0.50 in coach, $0.40-1.00 in Business, or $1.00-2.00 in First on the Acela, and this shakes out to about $0.065/mile in Business).

Don't forget, on opening day in January they were charging $15 in Select and $10 in Smart for one way WPB-FLL, so they knocked the fares by 2/3 for Miami's opening day.

Right now, I'm showing Select sold out southbound on every single train FLL-MIA. Smart is sold out until the 1820 departure from FLL. The 1742 departure, as of this writing, has six seats available. The 1942 has about a third of its Smart seats left (I think I counted 85 available). 2142 only has about 25 seats taken (so something like 170 seats available).

Between WPB and FLL, Select is sold out on three trains (1100, 1300, and 1900). 0700 shows 24 Select seats available, 0900 shows 16 Select seats available, 1500 shows 10 Select seats available, 1700 shows 10 Select seats available, and 1900 shows 10 Select seats available.

Northbound, Select is also sold out MIA-FLL. There's Smart space available on the 0910 (69 seats), 1110 (26 seats), 2110 (62 seats), and 2310 (50 taken, so 148 available).

FLL-WPB, the first three departures are sold out in Select. 1545 shows 10 seats available, 1745 shows 10 seats available, 1945 shows 21 seats available, 2145 shows 23 seats available, and 2345 shows 39 seats available. NB that these are all on trains where MIA-FLL is sold out.

There are no trains showing Smart sold out FLL-WPB, though in a few cases the pickings are getting slim.

Please note that this is getting pretty high up in terms of load factors: Select is at 100% FLL-MIA/MIA-FLL, 81.8% WPB-FLL, and 73.1% FLL-WPB. In terms of raw load factor (and presuming 44 miles WPB-FLL and 26 miles FLL-MIA), Select is at 85.8% (46,148 seat-miles are filled out of a potential 53,760 seat-miles). FWIW I don't see this going much higher, given that you're effectively getting a lot of FLL-MIA tickets blocking out WPB-MIA sales as well as sold-out trains one way blocking a possible round-trip. Overall, you have 71.2% 85.6% of all available seats into Miami sold out four days out...and of the 566 available seats, 318 are on the late-night round trip and another 69 are on that first train out (which I'm on only because I need to be back in Dunnellon ASAP...otherwise, yes, I would've probably booked at least one more round trip over the course of the weekend).

However...this is only for Saturday. Sunday is looking not-that-far-off, however: Several trains are already sold out all the way through, though there are also still 11 Select seats available on the 0700 WPB-MIA.

Edit: Something else to bear in mind is that, given the lack of finished crossovers and the like, shoving another set (or two) into service might come close to shutting the FEC down. However, putting that equipment into service might also (ironically) sell some more tickets on the later existing trains...one thing quite possibly hurting the late trains' load factors is the fact that you can't get in or out of Miami for a good chunk of the day now (though some "joyriders" might be nudged into those odd hours by the fact that you can only get a seat then).

Edit 2: I found this:
https://www.fitchratings.com/site/pr/1032927

So, let's compare notes here. As of a few weeks ago, per the newspapers, ridership was aiming for about 400,000/yr strictly on WPB-FLL. Brightline is projecting 1.1m in 2018 while Fitch put together a less rosy possible scenario of 587,000 for their base case and 907,000 for their "rating case". On the basis of the WPB-FLL ridership, I think it is safe to say that the rating case is probably on the lower edge of what is likely (presuming they can bump some of the midday frequencies back into the mix) with Brightline's numbers on the high side. I'm comfortable that we won't end up in the base case scenario.

Edit 3: Another observation worth considering is that even at the deep-discount fares, revenue for the weekend should be up on last weekend. Going from, say, 25% of seats filled at $15/10 to 85-90% filled at $5/3 still puts you ahead.

Edit 4: So, the cases that Fitch examined all made _ridership _assumptions. None of them made _pricing_ assumptions aside from what Brightline put out. I do wonder if Brightline might not end up making the ridership targets, but be stuck with modestly lower pricing until the Orlando segment opens up.


----------



## Anderson

So, looking further into the Fitch data and trying to look at what is likely:
-As I noted, Fitch fiddled with ridership assumptions but not ticket pricing. Multiplication is commutative, so either lever can be adjusted to produce a revenue result.
-Per Fitch, break-even ticket revenue is about $60.09m/yr (0.56*107.3m).
-To get what you need to break even at this level:
--I presume the current consist (198 Y, 48 J), which gives you 246 seats per set. I think this technically hits 250 seats due to wheelchair seating, but I'm setting that aside for the moment.
--I presume 16 round-trips per weekday (250 weekdays per year) and 12 round-trips per weekend day (115 weekend days per year). This won't be exact...I'm adjusting for holidays and the like through considering them weekends, and there's a good chance that Friday may have an additional train or two while Sunday may come up shorter than expected.
--I also presume a 70-mile corridor.

All told, this gives roughly 185,287,200 seat-miles per year (which I'll be rounding off to 185.3m/yr). With costs of $60.09m/yr, this gives CASM of $0.3243/mile. Brightline is presuming $0.5791/mile under this scenario. This is not far off of their stated fare assumptions (not to mention not being _that_ far off of non-Saver fares on the RVR-WAS trains).

From what I can tell, running back-of-the-envelope numbers off of the FY16 report from Amtrak, RASM on the Acela was $0.5696 (I got this by dividing fully-allocated profits by fully-allocated profit per seat mile to get raw seat miles, and then dividing revenue by seat-miles to get RASM). I think this /might/ be doable (it isn't far off of standard mileage rates, and obviously there's the Y/J price difference to consider as well), but practically speaking Brightline has to be presuming higher load factors than the Acela (which hovers in the low 60s)...which is probably doable on a three-station service in a way you can't manage on a 6-8 stop service (even if the pattern for Brightline's stops isn't far off a putative NYP-PHL-WAS train...and MIA-FLL-WPB seems to have a similar ridership pattern, too).

Of course, this is all quite "off" if Brightline is presuming that the trains will be longer: Going to the seven-car sets (with the cafe unstaffed) would give you 271.1m seat-miles and, accordingly, knock break-even RASM down to $0.2216 and Brightline's estimated RASM down to $0.3957.


----------



## Seaboard92

I saw an article yesterday talking about Brightline Expansion with routes they were possibly eyeing. On them the two that stood out most to me.

1. Dallas to Houston which is the route Texas Central wants to operate.

2. Atlanta to Charlotte which I think arguably would be their better choice. Both are large cities with a fairly crappy level of service with a decent medium sized city in the middle (Greenville) and a large college (Clemson). So in theory that makes it a fairly good route. The next thing it has going for it from a passenger standpoint is a connection to Raleigh with the Piedmonts running multiple times a day.

Lastly Atlanta makes a far better hub if you are building a network because you can easily hit Macon/Jacksonville, Macon/Savannah, Birmingham, Montgomery, Chattanooga/Knoxville, Chattanooga/Nashville, Augusta/Columbia. The connectivity would make it a fairly good little system.


----------



## Anderson

I think this is the article:
http://www.floridatrend.com/article/24532/brightline-texas-brightline-examines-expanding-outside-florida

Dallas-Houston is probably the most obvious market...but that's why Texas Central jumped in there first. I actually think that in some respects, Brightline might have the better product from a public policy perspective insofar as it doesn't require total separation from other railroad operations (so you could probably work something out to use existing tracks on the endpoints...for example, accessing downtown Houston or connecting over to Fort Worth).

Atlanta-Charlotte and Chicago-St. Louis both make sense to me, though the latter would probably need Illinois to support them by not having a head-to-head fight with the Lincoln Service trains. As strangely awesome as it would be to see Amtrak forced to go head-to-head with a private operator, I'd be worried about a cannibalized market situation. An Atlanta hub actually raises the prospect of actually connecting to the Florida operation in the long(er) term.

And I kind of can't believe we're actually getting to have this discussion.


----------



## JRR

Heading to Atlanta Friday. Unfortunately in my pickup truck. Just can’t get there from Boca on the train in any reasonable way.

Would be nice to have a Florida Atlanta train option.


----------



## jis

More on the West Palm Beach Quiet Zone...

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/sound-silence-brightline-tiptoes-through-west-palm-quiet-zones/mYmJ3MZX1w8SBDT7gfwHfK/


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I think this is the article:
> 
> http://www.floridatrend.com/article/24532/brightline-texas-brightline-examines-expanding-outside-florida
> 
> Dallas-Houston is probably the most obvious market...but that's why Texas Central jumped in there first. I actually think that in some respects, Brightline might have the better product from a public policy perspective insofar as it doesn't require total separation from other railroad operations (so you could probably work something out to use existing tracks on the endpoints...for example, accessing downtown Houston or connecting over to Fort Worth).


Seeing the present FEC service more or less sprang up from the ashes of the scuppered Florida HS project, maybe there is a precedent here should Texas Central fail.

Or even for FEC to use their lobbying arm to, um ... er ..., make it thus.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Atlanta-Charlotte and Chicago-St. Louis both make sense to me, though the latter would probably need Illinois to support them by not having a head-to-head fight with the Lincoln Service trains. As strangely awesome as it would be to see Amtrak forced to go head-to-head with a private operator, I'd be worried about a cannibalized market situation. An Atlanta hub actually raises the prospect of actually connecting to the Florida operation in the long(er) term.


Either that, or they are maybe thinking they could take over the Lincoln Service from Amtrak.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I think Brightline captured lightning in a bottle with Fortress owning a real estate company and a railroad (now sold off). I can't see how expanding outside of Florida wouldn't result in a similar outcome to the AutoTrain after they opened their Sanford to Louisville route.

I suppose they could become an operator like Herzog, Keolis, Iowa Pacific, etc., but that requires having more Gene Skoropowskis (who retired last year) and less Disney people.


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> I think Brightline captured lightning in a bottle with Fortress owning a real estate company and a railroad (now sold off). I can't see how expanding outside of Florida wouldn't result in a similar outcome to the AutoTrain after they opened their Sanford to Louisville route.
> 
> I suppose they could become an operator like Herzog, Keolis, Iowa Pacific, etc., but that requires having more Gene Skoropowskis (who retired last year) and less Disney people.


Maybe they can establish themselves more as a service company. They can talk to people who own a lot of real estate at strategic locations and offer to provide their know-how to increase the value of said real estate by adding a rail service. Either with the real estate owners contracting for the train servioce wholesale and not needing to get involved in the details, or just by Brightline being a middle.man or consultant and teaching them how to build such a service..


----------



## jis

I think all the talk of anything outside Florida is very pie in the sky, in the same category as Amtrak adding another LD train at this moment. Aspirations yes, but nothing beyond that yet.


----------



## Brian_tampa

According to the GOAA monthly board meeting agenda and presentation from Wednesday, May 16, "AAF is working diligently" on obtaining financing for phase 2. In the presentation it says AAF plans to close on the financing deal by August/September 2018 and it will be 40% equity and 60% debt. Also, $200M has already been spent on phase 2. I would assume most of this amount is for the 5 new trainsets required for phase 2 operation.

Up through late April (?) It also claimed that 100,000 riders have used Brightline since it opened.

Main construction of phase 2 will begin in fall of 2018 with early construction work at MCO starting in July. That would include utility surveying and land preparation for the vehicle maintenance facility. AAF will have around 30 construction management employees based out of the ITF once construction ramps up.

Board_Presentation_20180516 (1).pdf


----------



## Anderson

On the first train out of Miami, waiting for departure.

One note: The trains are listed as sold out WPB-FLL. That is patent nonsense as of the 0700 departure. A friend in Smart FLL-MIA said his coach was about half empty, though Select was slam full. Brightline may have fluffed their numbers a little on the outlying departures...I find it hard to believe they have sold out the late evening round trip (ridership dymamics being what they are).

Also, the vouchers for food/drink this weekend are a bit odd...not sure why they didn't just charge $9.99 for Select and cut that out.


----------



## jis

Something to do with the mystical marketing symbolism of 305 I presume [emoji57]

The 11am out of WPB had some free seats to FLL, but from FLL it was completely full.

Now waiting to board my 3:10pm return trip from Miami.


----------



## Anderson

...right. $3 or $5. Go figure....


----------



## daybeers

...and how was it?


----------



## jis

I was on the 11am out of WPB on Saturday. The train left WPB probably about 80% full. Quite a few got off at Fort Lauderdale, but many more got on and the train appeared to leave Fort Lauderdale close to 100% full.

This time I was traveling in Smart, a first for me, since all my previous trips were in Select. Smart was actually surprisingly good.

There is a lot of track work still going on between Fort Lauderdale and Miami with all sorts of speed limits here and there. Interestingly, all grade crossing in Miami City limits were protected by flagmen, in addition to the regular barriers, suggesting that the barriers were not working reliably that day.

The climb up the ramp to the station was very slow. Only the extreme North end of the complex is currently open for operating the trains. The rest of the complex, including the entire planned commercial area/Mall is still under construction.

The Metromover Station Wilkie D. Ferguson Jr. is the most convenient to the Brightline Station, a walk of a short block from it. Currently no covered walkway, but upon completion of construction, there will be. The Metro Station Lyric Theater is adjacent to the Brightline Station, though there is no covered walkway connecting to it.

I took the Metromover to downtown and got a good lunch. It was drizzling off and on so not much chance to walk around without getting wet. Hence I took the opportunity to explore the entire Metromover system, before returning to the Birghtline station for my 3:10pm return trip to WPB.

The departure from Miami was again very slow, though exactly on time. Lot of stop and go for the first couple of miles. Then it picked up speed and arrived Fort Lauderdale just about on time. The train emptied out some there though there were significant number of hoardings there too. After a very solid run at track speed all the way to WPB we arrived there a good five minutes ahead of schedule.

It was a pleasant day of train riding. Brightline is in general a class operation so far.

Incidentally, four of the five consists were in circulation on Saturday. Two ran in the morning, and two others were apparently switched in in the afternoon.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Nice update--thanks, jis.

I realize it is smart to get tickets online ahead of time. But if someone wanted to go for a ride on impulse, can you buy a ticket at the station from an agent that day? Or is it all online?


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Nice update--thanks, jis.
> 
> I realize it is smart to get tickets online ahead of time. But if someone wanted to go for a ride on impulse, can you buy a ticket at the station from an agent that day? Or is it all online?


Yes. All stations are staffed and also have ticket kiosks, so you can get them either from a person or from a machine. It is kind of different selecting your seat as you buy the ticket. You even know before hand how much of a real window your seat will have.

If you happen to have a Smartphone, you can also buy and display your e-ticket on the phone.


----------



## Anderson

I made many comments about their service back in January. Those remarks more-or-less all hold true. The Miami station is quite a sight inside (I didn't get outside as the weather went bad while I was there); the Select lounge is about twice the size of the relevant lounges in FLL and WPB, but it also seems to be about the right size for handling the future Orlando traffic. I wish I had been able to spare some more time at Miami, both to poke around the station and for a chance to step outside the station.

There was obvious slow-running in a few cases:
-There were some inexplicable holds on approach to Miami. My best guess is that they held so as to time the arrival for everyone in the station to be in position.
-There was also a lot of slower running FLL-WPB than in the opposite direction. Basically, we were doing about 60 on the way north where we had been doing 79 on the way south. The fact that there's an extra 5 minutes on the timecard NB than SB suggests that /something/ is up here. What it is, I don't know.

We also ran 39 MPH for the first few miles out of Miami heading back; I think the tracks there aren't done.

The food options on the train are rather limited, but the Good to Go operation in the station provides some solid choices. I had a beef empanada at Miami and found it quite satisfying. The coffee was solid as well.

I do think they whiffed it with the F&B coupons. While you could use those more flexibly than the straight "complementary on board" options, both OBS personnel and passengers alike were confused (there was particularly intense confusion as to whether it was "one item per one-way ticket" or "one item per round trip").

I still find the claim that they sold out the late-night Saturday trains (particularly the FLL-WPB leg that boards just before midnight) to be nigh-on incredible, and the claims involving the first train into Miami (let alone its FLL leg) being 100% sold out do not line up with what my friend saw in Smart.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Is there anything to do near the West Palm Beach station? I am thinking that, if I visit my friend in Fort Lauderdale next winter, I will probably have a day to myself and could do a round trip. I would be a bit afraid to go to Miami by myself so would go to West Palm Beach. I would be happy to just go up and come back, but if there was something near there to go look at, that would be nice. Also not sure how safe West Palm Beach is?


----------



## chrsjrcj

I think West Palm Beach is very safe. The neighborhood north of Clematis Street (the north end of the station) is low income and has all the issues associated with a low income neighborhood, but I always feel safe on Clematis Street which has restaurants and bars. CityPlace is just to the south which has some high end shopping and more restaurants. If youre coming at night, Clematis Street is typically pretty active until 1 or 2 am during the weekend, so that shouldnt be an issue either.

Both areas are within easy walking distance to the train station. There is also a free trolley route that runs along Clematis Street to CityPlace.


----------



## jis

You can also take a short three block walk to the lagoon, and a slightly longer walk to the South Cove Natural Area, if you like that sort of thing. From the station take Evernia make a left on Rosemary and then a left on Fern and follow it to the end.

As mentioned by chrsjrcj most of the food places are either on Clementis to the north or Rosemary south of Fern.

All quite safe in my experience.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

When I transfereed from Brightline to the former Seaboard / Amtrak station in west Palm I felt like I was in a safe area the whole time. I stopped in at the Jamba Juice on my way.

The Brightline stations themselves are really nice and have very comfortable waiting rooms with outlets, wi-fi, coffee shop etc all within the security gates. So if you wanted to just ride to Miami and stay in the station, it's a nice place to hang out for a bit.


----------



## jis

And you can even get reasonable food and drinks from the self serve cafe in the station.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good advice from those in the know Patty! Go for it!

BTW- Miami and South Beach are highly Overated,Expensive and Overhyped IMO.Youre not missing much!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thank you all for the excellent suggestions





. I have a feeling I will probably plan a nice energetic walk to the lagoon, persuade myself it is too hot, and go to City Place instead



. (I see there is a Panera and a Cheesecake Factory there, so I will feel right at home



).

Jim--

My friend who lives in Fort Lauderdale loves Miami, so I have been there with him, but I agree with you--I did not care for it and only went there because my friend likes it. However, I might take the suggestion of crescent-zephyr, and just go down there for the ride, stay in the lounge for a while, and come back.

The only reason to go to Miami otherwise would be to see the ships in the port, but the hotel I stay at in Fort Lauderdale is within walking distance of the port there, so I can easily see ships there.


----------



## jis

If you are into riding as much trains as possible then do a circle trip. Go to Miami from Fort Lauderdale by Brightline. At Miami take the Metro from the adjacent Metro Station to the Airport Metro Station. Then take Tri Rail from there to West Palm Beach. Walk over to the Brightline Station and take it back to Fort Lauderdale.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

That sounds like a lovely circle trip, jis. I think I'd like to do something like that with my train-riding friends, though, instead of by myself. I mean, if I turn to some random commuter on Tri Rail and say "Isn't this fun?" they will look at me funny.



(Perhaps a nice Gathering idea if Miami is somewhere in the future?



)


----------



## chrsjrcj

Did another RT today (I have two RT vouchers that expire June 1st), and I'd say there were about 80 people heading south and maybe a little less going north. Going south our travel time was 75 minutes and north was 70 minutes. As far as I could tell, there were no additional delays (other than going north, when we slowed to 40 mph to switch tracks).

It is my understanding that the track speed from Little River (79th Street) south on the FEC Port Lead is 40 mph. Also, the east main between Fort Lauderdale and Deerfield was not upgraded until recently. The west main between Deerfield and Fort Lauderdale was the only one upgraded to 79 mph, originally.


----------



## Anderson

@Chrsjrcj: That's about where I noticed us going 39-40 instead of 79-80. The Fort Lauderdale-Deerfield track situation would also line up with what I noticed (a lot of running at 59-60 north from Fort Lauderdale). Both sections would seem to qualify as Class 3...no idea why the section south from 79th Street is 39 instead of 59.

One other thing; They had a_ ton_ of flagmen on the streets making sure traffic didn't get in the way (and/or that we didn't have a crash). I applaud the effort, but I doubt that such is economical in the longer term.


----------



## Anderson

Another thought, on top of all of the above: I took a friend with me on the Brightline trip. He dropped me off at ORL last night (where there's a 45-minute baggage policy (I was unable to check a bag because we got stuck in traffic...even though we got to the station about 20-25 minutes before departure [1]) and hand-wringing about "If your baggage wasn't delivered to the station by an hour before departure it may be delayed" versus Brightline's 10-minute requirement). HIs reaction was basically "Wow, this is night and day..."

I'm beginning to think that Brightline may do some very serious damage to Amtrak simply by making Amtrak look bad.

[1] Funny, the Conductor had no problem checking it...


----------



## chrsjrcj

Apparently Brightline has been testing 79 mph operations on the east main between Fort Lauderdale and Deerfield. I believe they updated the signal systems last week.

Starting Monday: northbound trains are scheduled 5 minutes faster between FTL and WPB and southbound trains are scheduled 3 minutes faster between FTL and Miami.


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## Anderson

They also seem to be adding two round-trips (11 M-R, 12 F).


----------



## jis

https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2018/06/07/brightline-announces-new-executive-leadership.html


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## cirdan

Any idea how the service is developing in terms of OTP and ridership?


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> I'm beginning to think that Brightline may do some very serious damage to Amtrak simply by making Amtrak look bad.


Arguably Amtrak has been making itself look bad all along, at least to those who've been to Europe or China. Brightline is simply exposing Americans who've never travelled overseas to what "normal trains" are like. But yes, I'm agreeing with you.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Any idea how the service is developing in terms of OTP and ridership?


I don't know about ridership, but I believe that OTP is pretty close to 100% on a 5-10 minute standard.


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## jis

They claim they had carried over 100,000 riders before they extended service to Miami.

I also learned that they have yet to suffer any in service failure of any of the Siemens power heads since inception of commercial operations.


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## Anderson

I remember that...Fort Lauderdale-West Palm was doing about 30,000 pax/month per their statement. I would _love_ to see results for June (since that should, at least in theory, be a good bit higher with Miami in the mix).


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea how the service is developing in terms of OTP and ridership?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about ridership, but I believe that OTP is pretty close to 100% on a 5-10 minute standard.
Click to expand...

It's getting better, but two SB trains yesterday were over 9 minutes late. A NB was nearly 30 minutes late. That's looking at endpoints, designed to absorb schedule pad, which, arguably there is 17 minutes of. They claimed a 60 minute ride from WPB to MIA and it's schedule is for 77 minutes. That's a 28% pad.
In other words, to be a premier service-first business, they should be looking to keeping timetables like they do in Europe or Japan. Apologies for being 60 seconds late. THAT's what will bring loyalty.


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## jis

No the pad is much less than 17 minutes given the realities of track work and lack of certain speed codes in ATC until it is upgraded to eATC as part of PTC deployment completion later this year. The pad is more like 5-7 minutes I am told.

I actually talked at length with the Chief of Operations at the FECRS Annual Convention, who had come to Patrick Goddard's Keynote Dinner event in West Palm Beach. He mentioned the various items that are yet to be completed including a couple of additional crossovers, PTC and upgrading of all main line tracks to 79mph before they can meet the planned 60 mins schedule. But he surmised that they will get there late this year or early next.

Nate Asplund (CEO FECR) in his Dinner Keynote address the following day mentioned the trackwork and PTC deployment that remains to be completed too. He also talked some about the work involved for Phase II which starts construction this summer.


----------



## Anderson

Brightline sent out an announcement today that they're implementing the hourly schedule on August 6. WPB-MIA time will be at 73 minutes each way at that point, with SB departures at :00 from WPB and :43* from FTL, arriving at MIA at :13 (except for a "screwball" 0530 departure from WPB to position the earliest departure from MIA, which will retain the 75-minute schedule). NB times will be at :10 from MIA and :45 from FTL, arriving WPB at :23.

SB departures will start from WPB at 0530 (the aforementioned screwball departure) and run hourly from 0600 until 2100; NB departures from MIA will start at 0710 and run until 2310. Note that this means that Friday will have the same schedule as Monday-Thursday. Weekend timetables are, as far as I can tell, unchanged.

*I think. The website isn't loading smoothly.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Great news! Now just get to Orlando by 2021. And then Tampa... lol since I live here in Tampa I would love to not drive anymore to WPB or FTL.


----------



## cpotisch

Brian_tampa said:


> Great news! Now just get to Orlando by 2021. And then Tampa... lol since I live here in Tampa I would love to not drive anymore to WPB or FTL.


Why don't you take the the Star or Meteor? It'll no doubt be cheaper...


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great news! Now just get to Orlando by 2021. And then Tampa... lol since I live here in Tampa I would love to not drive anymore to WPB or FTL.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you take the the Star or Meteor? It'll no doubt be cheaper...
Click to expand...

And much more unreliable and slower.


----------



## MattW

But without the pseudo-tsa nonsense.


----------



## me_little_me

MattW said:


> But without the pseudo-tsa nonsense.


By that time? Are you sure Amtrak won't be as bad or worse?


----------



## MattW

Amtrak has made no moves toward having permanent checkpoints at all stations. The tsa and their ilk come and run a circus every now and then, but that's it, and I haven't even heard of anything nearly as intrusive as brightline on Amtrak in quite some time.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

cpotisch said:


> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great news! Now just get to Orlando by 2021. And then Tampa... lol since I live here in Tampa I would love to not drive anymore to WPB or FTL.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you take the the Star or Meteor? It'll no doubt be cheaper...
Click to expand...

Amtrak would take over 3-4+ hours from Tampa to those end points (provided the train isn't delayed). Megabus would be able to do the trip quicker. It's not really fair to compare Amtrak long distance trains to Brightline. If Amtrak had state supported trains in this state, it would be a better comparison IMO. That's another thread though.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Mega Bus takes just as long as Amtrak between South Florida and Tampa. Actually, Amtrak is just as fast as driving between WPB and Tampa, because there is no direct interstate connection (either take the Turnpike to I-4 in Orlando or to SR 60 at Yeehaw Jct). Now if only the Star was reliable.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Caesar La Rock said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian_tampa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great news! Now just get to Orlando by 2021. And then Tampa... lol since I live here in Tampa I would love to not drive anymore to WPB or FTL.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you take the the Star or Meteor? It'll no doubt be cheaper...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak would take over 3-4+ hours from Tampa to those end points (provided the train isn't delayed). Megabus would be able to do the trip quicker. It's not really fair to compare Amtrak long distance trains to Brightline. If Amtrak had state supported trains in this state, it would be a better comparison IMO. That's another thread though.
Click to expand...

Megabus is not necessarily faster than Amtrak. Megabus advertises Tampa to Miami in 5 1/2 hours, whereas when I rode the Silver Star there it took under 5. From Tampa to West Palm Beach, the Silver Star is even more competitive as there is no direct interstate route. However, there is still a major difference in the fact that Megabus is more reliable, cheaper, and has more frequencies. Other than the cost, Brightline will be an improvement in all of these areas (as well as time savings). I would definitely use the Silver Star over other methods of transportation if I go to South Florida from Tampa again in the next few years, but it is somewhat of a niche market given all of the transportation options. If Brightline does eventually reach Tampa, at that point I would use it instead of Amtrak unless the prices were much higher, mainly due to flexibility. While the route is covered by the Silver Star at what would be considered relatively good times, for my uses they fail to maximize time as it doesn't arrive into Miami until relatively late and returns to Tampa at a time that takes up a large part of the day as well.


----------



## Brian_tampa

If Brightline does get to Tampa, and they have hourly service from 7am to 11pm, that would be the main reason I would use BL over Amtrak anyday. I could do a comfortable & relaxing round trip in a single day to S Florida which would otherwise make for a very long day if driving there instead! Also, I tend to think that BL will be more reliable - LD trains are more often late than on time. Not that it is Amtrak's fault, just the cards they have been dealt especially with Florida to NE service on CSX.


----------



## jis

https://www.wingsjournal.com/wes-edens-brightline-south-florida-commuters



> The Fortress Investment Group, which Edens co-founded and co-manages, owns the rail system. Plans for development include a station in Miami that will cover six city blocks. Shops, residences and a food hall are in the works as are connections to other transit networks. Real estate experts predict that prices along the rail system’s path will increase dramatically.
> 
> 
> 
> Wes Edens’s Brightline train has routes throughout S. Florida
> 
> According to Edens, his vision for Brightline extends “well beyond the state of Florida.” Although there is talk of service between Chicago and St. Louis in the future, Edens’ spokesman was reluctant to discuss the possibility of service between Chicago and Milwaukee. The Amtrak Hiawatha line already offers several trips each day.


----------



## jis

Public Meeting regarding environmental issues in the St. Johns and Econ River basins taking place today In Orlando...

http://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2018/06/19/brightline-passenger-rail-moves-forward-with-orlando-expansion


----------



## chrsjrcj

It looks like fares have gone up. WPB to Miami is $30 Select/$20 Smart.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

We know the outcome of Orlando service. Approved, so come 2021 looks like I'll meeting some of you.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange/os-brightline-gets-orange-ok-20180619-story.html


----------



## Anderson

Good to see that sorted out. I'm trying to remember where the bond issue is in terms of getting, well, issued...but I'm thinking that's all we have left (unless there's some random chunk of lawsuit left from one of the counties).


----------



## jis

Patrick Goddard had mentioned at the FECRS Meeting that the Bond issue, if it happens, will be in August time frame. I also got the impression that the RRIF Loan was still around as a Plan B should it become necessary.


----------



## Anderson

Thanks for the update on that...trying to follow the bond issue/RRIF loan through its travails has been a bit dizzying.

Of course, depending on the exact timing in August, that might come on the heels of establishing the initially-proposed hourly schedule.


----------



## Brian_tampa

It appears that AAF has hired the chairman of the board of the St Johns River Water Management District to work on its recent environmental permit application that was recently approved by the Orange County Commissioners. This guy, Mr Miklos, has a history of being involved in potential conflicts of interests. This will only raise more questions from the opponents as well as some supporters about why AAF chose his consulting firm over the hundreds of other competent firms that could do similar work here in Florida. In my mind, this was a self inflicted wound not unlike Mr Goddard's testimony to congress back in April.

https://www.wftv.com/news/politics/brightline-moves-forward-with-help-from-state-water-agency-head/773130481

Already this decision is being exploited by those who oppose AAF:

http://http://sunshinestatenews.com/story/should-brightline-conflict-interest-be-allowed-stand

I would not be surprised to see calls for an investigation into any permits for AAF approved by the SJRWMD and quite possibly a further delay of phase 2.


----------



## Ryan

From your first link.



> In 2016, the Florida Commission on Ethics found no probable cause when it investigated Miklos for possible conflicts of interest.


No surprise that the NIMBYs will seize at anything to try and disrupt things.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Par for the course for Florida. Welcome to the plutocracy.


----------



## jis

Yeah - I was about to say Flori-DUH!


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> Par for the course for Florida. Welcome to the plutocracy.


At the end of the day, I would happily see a dollar or two from each ticket go to a Florida Government Officials' Benevolent Fund if it makes the train happen.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brightline submitted a proposal to lease CFX and FDOT land to build to Tampa! Press release from Gov Scott's office today:

Gov. Scott: FDOT Begins Process for Privately Funded High-Speed Rail from Orlando to Tampa

TALLAHASSEE, Fla – Today, Governor Rick Scott announced that the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) has begun the process to allow for private investment in a high-speed rail connection from Orlando to Tampa. FDOT and the Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX) received an unsolicited proposal to lease property owned by the state and CFX to build a high-speed train along Interstate 4. Based on the unsolicited proposal, FDOT, on behalf of the State and CFX, is initiating an open, transparent procurement process so any interested private entities may apply. The request is for those interested in leasing FDOT and CFX owned rights-of-way to establish privately funded passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa.

Governor Scott said, “This is an exciting opportunity for Orlando, Tampa and our entire state. When I became Governor, the Obama administration was trying to use federal taxpayer dollars to pay for a rail connection that had an extremely high risk of overspending taxpayer dollars with no guarantee of economic growth. This is exactly what we’re seeing in California, a state which took this bad deal from Obama, and in Connecticut where taxpayers had to shell out hundreds of millions of dollars for their rail line. Instead of placing taxpayers on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars, our goal is for the private sector to invest in this project. Through private investment, we ensure that this major project has zero financial risk to Florida taxpayers.”

FDOT Secretary Mike Dew said, “The department is committed to creating a robust transportation system that meets Florida’s current and future needs. Privately-funded passenger rail will provide residents and visitors a transportation choice for one of the busiest corridors in the state.”

Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said, “Orlando is a destination of choice for those visiting our world-class attractions, attending business conventions or enjoying a weekend getaway. As Mayor, I have worked to ensure that we offer residents and visitors, safe, efficient and affordable transportation options. Having more passenger rail options will create more jobs and make it easier to experience our great city.”

Tampa Mayor Bob Buckhorn said, “Whether it’s visiting our pristine beaches or catching a game, adding safe and affordable private passenger rail service will provide a needed alternative for those wanting to spend time in Tampa. Establishing private passenger rail service enables more public transportation options while creating jobs and reducing congestion on our roadways.”

Orange County Mayor Teresa Jacobs said, "Throughout my two terms as mayor, the improvement and expansion of our regional transportation systems has been a top priority. As a premier global destination for guests, families and business leaders from around the world, we’re committed to the creation of transportation infrastructure – including private passenger rail - that will serve our residents and guests seamlessly.”

In 2011, Governor Scott rejected more than $2 billion in federal funds for a taxpayer funded 84-mile government train from Tampa to Orlando because the project would have exposed Florida taxpayers to millions of dollars of costs for decades. In other states that accepted funding, there were cost overruns and ongoing operation and maintenance costs. The State of California accepted federal funding for a project that current estimates indicate will experience significant cost overruns, with costs rising from approximately $33 billion to potentially $98.1 billion and with the hope of limited service beginning in 2027. In Connecticut, state taxpayers had to pay more than $560 million for their new government train.

Private intercity passenger rail service has been constructed and is currently being operated in Florida at no cost to taxpayers. This Request for Proposals (RFP) will provide an opportunity for the private sector to expand privately funded passenger rail service in the state at a zero risk to Florida taxpayers. Interested parties will have 120 days to submit proposals after the RFP is released.


----------



## jis

Any idea where they intend to place the station in Tampa?


----------



## Brian_tampa

My best guess is the same location as the planned HSR station. Just south of I275 north of downtown east of the river. This all makes sense... I always said Tampa would be next. But this is a bit earlier than I even thought.


----------



## jis

Here is an article ...

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-hopes-extend-fast-train-service-tampa/h9zvNBc4JyDG235G8VtKxL/


----------



## me_little_me

Ryan said:


> From your first link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2016, the Florida Commission on Ethics found no probable cause when it investigated Miklos for possible conflicts of interest.
> 
> 
> 
> No surprise that the NIMBYs will seize at anything to try and disrupt things.
Click to expand...

At our model RR club here in WNC, I met a man from the WPB area (we get LOTS of Floridians invading during the summer). I commented on how lucky they were to have the new Brighline. The first words out of his mouth were "Five people have been killed". I mentioned that lots have been killed by Tri-Rail and you could not stop people who want to commit suicide nor the idiots who run around gates. We said no more about the subject. I have yet to meet anyone from that area who says they like it or even that they have taken it. Uphill battle, I guess.


----------



## Brian_tampa

me_little_me said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your first link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2016, the Florida Commission on Ethics found no probable cause when it investigated Miklos for possible conflicts of interest.
> 
> 
> 
> No surprise that the NIMBYs will seize at anything to try and disrupt things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At our model RR club here in WNC, I met a man from the WPB area (we get LOTS of Floridians invading during the summer). I commented on how lucky they were to have the new Brighline. The first words out of his mouth were "Five people have been killed". I mentioned that lots have been killed by Tri-Rail and you could not stop people who want to commit suicide nor the idiots who run around gates. We said no more about the subject. I have yet to meet anyone from that area who says they like it or even that they have taken it. Uphill battle, I guess.
Click to expand...

Not sure what to say other than that your "friend" is not the brightest bulb in the bunch. Oh well.

Almost every brightline strike has been a suicide or a person ****ed up on drugs. Sorry to put it that way but it's the truth.


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## Ziv

I have no idea, but it wouldn't be out of character for Fortress to announce this a week or two after they acquired a nice sized piece of land just off of I-4 on the east side of Tampa.

;-)

Brian probably has a better real world idea of where the best spots are for it to go, but the map does make certain suggestions.



jis said:


> Any idea where they intend to place the station in Tampa?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Here is the unsolicited proposal that Brightline sent to FDOT on March 26.

Unsolicited Proposal - Intercity Passenger Rail (1).pdf


----------



## Brian_tampa

Ziv said:


> I have no idea, but it wouldn't be out of character for Fortress to announce this a week or two after they acquired a nice sized piece of land just off of I-4 on the east side of Tampa.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Brian probably has a better real world idea of where the best spots are for it to go, but the map does make certain suggestions.
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea where they intend to place the station in Tampa?
Click to expand...

My best guess is downtown because FECI/AAF is based on real estate development and attracting ridership. There are two major projects going on in downtown Tampa near the water at this time. One of them, Waterstreet, is a $3B development. https://waterstreettampa.com/ About the only place left for them is north downtown near I275 adjacent to the Marion bus transit center which is the location of the station for the cancelled HSR project. A lot of the land around there is owned by the state and city or county. Many low rise older buildings or empty lots around there too. Even north of I275 is attractive. They would have to build a bridge over I275 to build on the north side.


----------



## chrsjrcj

There is a lot of space around the Marion Transit Center that can be redeveloped (dare I say gentrified). Hopefully this gets Tampa to extend the streetcar further north and modernize it.


----------



## jadebenn

Brian_tampa said:


> As far as expansion of service beyond the initial Miami to Orlando route, AAF has told me that no further expansion will be considerd until they are sure that the initial route is successful. That won't be known until 2019 at the earliest. I don't expect anything to happen north of the "Cocoa curve" as AAF calls it, until the early 2020's.


This is an _extremely_ old post, but I feel it's relevant now. Brightline is already making a bid (literally!) for Orlando - Tampa service, despite not even having built all the way to Orlando yet. I'm actually kind of baffled by this. What happened to "we'll wait and see?"
I know they've stated that ridership on the initial phase has tripled their expectations, but I never got the feeling those expectations were very high to begin with. Are their numbers really so impressive that they're willing to fast-track to Tampa? Or is there some other motivation for accelerating their plans?


----------



## MikefromCrete

I think Brightline is just stating its intention to take part in any Orlando-Tampa route. Gov. Rick Scott all of a sudden decided to fast forward this Tampa plan, which he originally blocked. I believe he's running for U.S. senator, so this is probably part of his campaign. Any actual work is probably years away, so Brightline can complete its Miami-Orlando route and evaluate it before taking the next step. If they find the original route is lacking in profits, they can always say, thanks, but no thanks to the Tampa line.

I'd be surprised if any other company would be interested in the project, unless SNCF or Japanese interests decide to try to enter the U.S. market. I suppose that could happen, but Brightline would probably have the inside track (so to speak).


----------



## Brian_tampa

My own personal opinion is that the recent hyperloop proposals must have initiated their push to get a lease agreement settled with FDOT and CFX before the hyperloop boys got too much traction.

Of course, since AAF is a known entity with both agencies they do have the inside track. I mean, the RFP specifies an intercity *rail* service, not just any old transportation service. That alone tells me that AAF will be successful in this bid. I have seen the RFP document and it is heavily weighted towards an existing passenger rail operator.

Gov. Scott is not controlling this. He is just taking advantage of the situation. AAF initiated the whole Orlando to Tampa RFP with their proposal to FDOT back in March. As much as I personally might disagree with Gov. Scott, I feel he did the right thing by rejecting the HSR monies in 2011. Based on the reaction of the Florida Democratic Party since this announcement yesterday, it appears that we now have a Republican governor supporting passenger rail with the Democrats questioning it! What strange times we live in.


----------



## DSS&A

Progressive Railroading article:

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/high_speed_rail/news/Florida-DOT-to-consider-private-Orlando-to-Tampa-high-speed-rail-line--54965


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> My own personal opinion is that the recent hyperloop proposals must have initiated their push to get a lease agreement settled with FDOT and CFX before the hyperloop boys got too much traction.
> 
> Of course, since AAF is a known entity with both agencies they do have the inside track. I mean, the RFP specifies an intercity *rail* service, not just any old transportation service. That alone tells me that AAF will be successful in this bid. I have seen the RFP document and it is heavily weighted towards an existing passenger rail operator.
> 
> Gov. Scott is not controlling this. He is just taking advantage of the situation. AAF initiated the whole Orlando to Tampa RFP with their proposal to FDOT back in March. As much as I personally might disagree with Gov. Scott, I feel he did the right thing by rejecting the HSR monies in 2011. Based on the reaction of the Florida Democratic Party since this announcement yesterday, it appears that we now have a Republican governor supporting passenger rail with the Democrats questioning it! What strange times we live in.


I've always had mixed-bag opinions on Scott's decision in 2011...as much as I wanted to see a high-speed train there, I remember that there were many discussions about it being rather spectacularly cost-ineffective for what it was (especially with the intermediate stops hobbling your average speed). Orlando-Miami _should_ have been a workable first phase, but...ahem...well, that's what we got.

As to the "role reversal", a lot of it seems to be down to who is controlling the project. I can best describe a private-sector project like this as an outside-context problem for a lot of folks...best explained in a conversation I had in the PPC back in February about Brightline:

"So, I was on the first run of the new train between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm last month."

"Wait, doesn't Amtrak already operate there?"

"No, this was on the FEC tracks. They started running their own trains again. It's not Amtrak."

"...so the state started up their own service?"

"No, the FEC folks did."

"...so it's Amtrak?"

"..."

The idea is just so utterly alien to a whole generation of political figures that it seems to sort-of break brains.


----------



## JRR

Having a private operator initiate the service is not a new idea. Hope that it all works out. Maybe they’ll decide to run to New Orleans in the future. Now that would be great for us here in Florida.


----------



## me_little_me

DSS&A said:


> Progressive Railroading article:
> 
> https://www.progressiverailroading.com/high_speed_rail/news/Florida-DOT-to-consider-private-Orlando-to-Tampa-high-speed-rail-line--54965


It depends on one's definition of high speed. The HSR was, I believe 200+mph (correct me if I'm wrong). It seems like Brighline is a 100+mph railroad at most.

Frankly IMHO, with so little 100+ passenger service miles in this country, we'd all be better off with a lot more 100+ than we'd be with a few 200+ miles.


----------



## VentureForth

me_little_me said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Progressive Railroading article:
> 
> https://www.progressiverailroading.com/high_speed_rail/news/Florida-DOT-to-consider-private-Orlando-to-Tampa-high-speed-rail-line--54965
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on one's definition of high speed. The HSR was, I believe 200+mph (correct me if I'm wrong). It seems like Brighline is a 100+mph railroad at most.
> Frankly IMHO, with so little 100+ passenger service miles in this country, we'd all be better off with a lot more 100+ than we'd be with a few 200+ miles.
Click to expand...

There is a somewhat official definition in Wikipedia. But Shinkansen, the grandfather of HSR only started at around 150 mph. Today, the FASTEST HSR is around 300 kph, or 186 mph, so 200 Mph is beyond anything other than maglev at the moment.
Brightline hasn't really been advertised as HSR. Most they can do now is 79. The leg to Orlando I think is 110, which is what the Silver Star and every other NER does in the NEC. Not HSR, but rather HIGHER speed rail. I personally don't think 110 is anything to sneeze at.


----------



## jis

Nope. Shinkansen originally started at 210kph (130mph). Today the fastest HSR are 320kph to 350kph. TGV Est runs regularly at 320kph (199mph). China has just upped the speed on certain segments to 350kph (218mph). Time to read up a bit I suppose [emoji57]

As for Brightline. WPB to Cocoa will be 110mph and Cocoa to Orlando will be 125mph.

That would be the same as what NERs do on the NEC, but not the Silver Star.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Nope. Shinkansen originally started at 210kph (130mph). Today the fastest HSR are 320kph to 350kph. TGV Est runs regularly at 320kph (199mph). China has just upped the speed on certain segments to 350kph (218mph). Time to read up a bit I suppose [emoji57]
> 
> As for Brightline. WPB to Cocoa will be 110mph and Cocoa to Orlando will be 125mph.
> 
> That would be the same as what NERs do on the NEC, but not the Silver Star.


Ok. Brain updated.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Every country needs to find its own way to succeed. In Europe and Asia they built faster trains until they eventually reached high speed status. Here in the US we built slower goals until they eventually matched what we already had.


----------



## Anderson

The US really got socked with a "perfect storm" in many ways (the combination of the 79 MPH speed limit and interstate highway construction hitting before the railroads could sort out a new generation of trains). Move those factors by five years and I think a _lot_ more is intact by the time the Penn Central collapse gives us Amtrak. The US also got hosed by lousy regulatory schemes...for a handy example, a combination of the US having its own crash standards and the 79 MPH limit meant that Amtrak couldn't just grab a bunch of IC125s and pop them into service on the Lincoln Service (or the San Joaquins or the Florida routes). Basically, we got "unlucky" in almost every respect.

Europe and Asia also had the "benefit" of either having to start from scratch post-WW2 (Germany) being short on investment for much of the 20th century (China) so that they were, in many respects, able to "start fresh" at a higher standard than the US had (many routes in the US were good for 90-100, but many others (for example, in the South) were really only good for 50-70 because the lines were built in the late 19th century and not fully rebuilt later) or simply having enough pre-existing density to keep demand for service intact on a broad enough scale to enable a vigorous rebound in the 1990s (the UK).


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Anderson said:


> The US really got socked with a "perfect storm" in many ways (the combination of the 79 MPH speed limit and interstate highway construction hitting before the railroads could sort out a new generation of trains). Move those factors by five years and I think a _lot_ more is intact by the time the Penn Central collapse gives us Amtrak. The US also got hosed by lousy regulatory schemes...for a handy example, a combination of the US having its own crash standards and the 79 MPH limit meant that Amtrak couldn't just grab a bunch of IC125s and pop them into service on the Lincoln Service (or the San Joaquins or the Florida routes). Basically, we got "unlucky" in almost every respect.
> 
> Europe and Asia also had the "benefit" of either having to start from scratch post-WW2 (Germany) being short on investment for much of the 20th century (China) so that they were, in many respects, able to "start fresh" at a higher standard than the US had (many routes in the US were good for 90-100, but many others (for example, in the South) were really only good for 50-70 because the lines were built in the late 19th century and not fully rebuilt later) or simply having enough pre-existing density to keep demand for service intact on a broad enough scale to enable a vigorous rebound in the 1990s (the UK).


I think we also got hit with the residual anti-Robber Baron feeling against railroad companies and too much competition for dwindling passengers. In other words, a huge amount of factors converging led to the current situation.


----------



## Seaboard92

Well the thing about the German Rail network in particular. Large swaths of if were built in the 1800s and early 1900s. The Rhine valley line I want to say is from the 1850s. The Dresden-Leipzig line is from the 1830s. Yet they still manage to run a decent speed.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Well the thing about the German Rail network in particular. Large swaths of if were built in the 1800s and early 1900s. The Rhine valley line I want to say is from the 1850s. The Dresden-Leipzig line is from the 1830s. Yet they still manage to run a decent speed.


Many of them got to decent speeds after they were extensively realigned from their original rights of way to ease curves and such.

Also in general, because Europe allows much larger cant and cant deficiency than US, it is easier to operate on more curvaceous tracks at much higher speeds in Europe, provided the curve spirals are redone to accommodate higher speeds. In Switzerland it is a sight to behold how fast the Intercities zip around the spiral tunnels on the Gotthard Line.


----------



## Seaboard92

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well the thing about the German Rail network in particular. Large swaths of if were built in the 1800s and early 1900s. The Rhine valley line I want to say is from the 1850s. The Dresden-Leipzig line is from the 1830s. Yet they still manage to run a decent speed.
> 
> 
> 
> Many of them got to decent speeds after they were extensively realigned from their original rights of way to ease curves and such.
> Also in general, because Europe allows much larger cant and cant deficiency than US, it is easier to operate on more curvaceous tracks at much higher speeds in Europe, provided the curve spirals are redone to accommodate higher speeds. In Switzerland it is a sight to behold how fast the Intercities zip around the spiral tunnels on the Gotthard Line.
Click to expand...

Curve realignments I. Can understand. But the word cant is something I'm not overtly familiar with.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Curve realignments I. Can understand. But the word cant is something I'm not overtly familiar with.


Good place to start ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_deficiency


----------



## Seaboard92

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Curve realignments I. Can understand. But the word cant is something I'm not overtly familiar with.
> 
> 
> 
> Good place to start ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_deficiency
Click to expand...

So basically super elevation. It's a good thing I just work on the things and don't have to design them. I'm not hard wired for engineering.


----------



## jis

Yup. Super elevation. In this country Cant Deficiency is also known as Underbalance I think.

Europe and countries that use UIC or UIC derived standards allow both greater super-elevation and greater under balance than is allowed in the US.


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## chrsjrcj

2 MiamiCentral & 3 MiamiCentral Listed For Sale


----------



## Brian_tampa

The numbers behind the story. TC Palm, to their credit, found the Q1 numbers for Brightline.

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/all-aboard-florida/2018/06/29/brightline-financials-show-ridership-revenue-numbers/745477002/

By Lisa Broadt

Fair use excerpt:

Brightline carried 74,780 riders and collected $663,700 in ticket revenue in its first 2½ months of operation, according to financial documents released Friday.

The documents — which offered one of the first public glimpses into the private company's financials — revealed that ridership "exceeded expectations," according to Brightline, despite recent controversies over safety and use of public funding.

Ridership grew each month as a result of increased “awareness and demand for the company’s service," Brightline said in its quarterly unaudited financial statement provided to the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board.

Month-by-month ridership and revenue from Jan 19, when initial service began between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, to March 31, the end of the first quarter, was:

January: 17,800 passengers, $146,500
February: 24,100 passengers, $220,000
March: 32,900 passengers, $297,300
The financial documents — required by a continuing disclosure agreement associated with Brightline's $600 million private-activity bond offering — revealed the less-expensive Smart service ticket was more popular than the more-expensive Select ticket, but not by much. The documents also showed Select generated significantly more revenue than Smart:

Select: 34,200 passengers, $388,600
Smart: 40,600 passengers, $275,000


----------



## Anderson

I'm not going to try and hack into the likely weekday/weekend numbers, but taking into account the number of days of service in each month:
-January: 19 days of service; 17,800 pax; 937 pax/day*, $8.23/pax

-February: 28 days of service; 24,100 pax; 861 pax/day, $9.13/pax

-March: 31 days of service; 32,900 pax; 1061 pax/day, $9.04/pax

*Service started Jan. 13

This isn't really surprising: January got a boost from the initial service opening, so I expect that ridership numbers would be better for January. The February/March trend is promising. Also, presuming that the March pace held into April, passenger 100k would have ridden on or about April 23 and Brightline would have been sitting at about 125k pax carried prior to Miami service starting.

Other notes:
-Select tickets had an average price of $11.36. Smart tickets had an average price of $6.77. This is a bit lower than the nominal prices ($15 and $10), but I believe that there were a few rounds of discounts thrown in as well.

-This was (as we know) achieved with the "starter frequencies" and "starter timetables". Full-frequency service should give a bit more ridership (as should ordinary ramp-up), though I'll have to slam a big asterisk on May's ridership due to the start-of-service into Miami.

-I cannot find the underlying documents at the moment, but _boy_ should those continuing disclosures be a fascinating read.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brightline was running the bring a friend for free promo for a while, so that likely plays into it. I can not remember when it ended, but I think it was before Miami opened.


----------



## GBNorman

To my pleasant surprise, as part of the Indenture relating to the $600M Private Activity Bonds floated, AAF is required to disclose revenue and ridership for each Quarter. They released such for the First Quarter this past Friday - and look who reported them (presumably straight):

Gannett Treasure Coast Newspapers

Fair Use:

_Brightline carried 74,780 riders and collected $663,700 in ticket revenue in its first 2½ months of operation, according to financial documents released Friday._

The documents which offered one of the first public glimpses into the private company's financials revealed that ridership "exceeded expectations," according to Brightline, despite recent controversies over safety and use of public funding.

Ridership grew each month as a result of increased awareness and demand for the companys service," Brightline said in its quarterly unaudited financial statement provided to the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board.

Month-by-month ridership and revenue from Jan 19, when initial service began between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, to March 31, the end of the first quarter, was:

January: 17,800 passengers, $146,500

February: 24,100 passengers, $220,000

March: 32,900 passengers, $297,300

However, lest we forget, AAF is still offering dirt cheap "introductory fares". I highly doubt if they have compiled enough historical data to institute demand pricing, although I'm sure they want to "get there".

So their first venture into "market pricing" will be "like the old days". "Here's the fare; take it or leave it" (my guess: OW MIA-WP $50 Coach, $65 Business). Who knows what effect that will have on ridership and revenues.

Continuing with a "lest we wonder"; the Florida Turnpike will soon switch to demand pricing systemwide. The "Lexus Lanes" on the 95 are already there (BTW, this Lexus owner doesn't go near them - oh, and don't the various Authorities love EZ-Pass, Sun Pass, whatever; especially when signed up for automatic refills), so the market can certainly justify higher fares.

Finally though, a rub. The free parking at the AAF station garages is now $6/da, but that certainly is a dirt cheap rate. How they control that you actually have ridden a train, I know not - but I think they should.


----------



## frequentflyer

Have not read all 107 pages, but why do Brightline cars need a sliding plank to bridge the gap to the platform? The Amfleet and VL cars on the NEC do not have this problem.


----------



## CCC1007

frequentflyer said:


> Have not read all 107 pages, but why do Brightline cars need a sliding plank to bridge the gap to the platform? The Amfleet and VL cars on the NEC do not have this problem.


Are the platforms set further back to allow freight trains to pass through the stations?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Amtrak doesn't have this problem on the NEC, but NJ Transit certainly does. When I get on at Princeton Junction, for example, I have to climb up into the train over a gap, with no handrail close to the door to hang on to. So it seems to me that Brightline is taking care of a problem like that at stations with a similar gap before an accident can happen.


----------



## jis

CCC1007 said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have not read all 107 pages, but why do Brightline cars need a sliding plank to bridge the gap to the platform? The Amfleet and VL cars on the NEC do not have this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Are the platforms set further back to allow freight trains to pass through the stations?
Click to expand...

Not really. Even at level boarding stations generally Amtrak trains require a bridge plate for wheelchairs. Brightline's gap filler eliminates that need. You can literally just roll on or roll off a wheelchair as soon as the door opens. People who can walk normally can walk across the gap, if the filler were absent as easily as they do all the time at say Newark Penn Station.

All Brightline stations have a freight bypass track for unusual loads that do not fit the standard loading gauge. The platforms are designed to accommodate all standard loading gauges. According to the guys planning all extensions all stations will be designed with a freight bypass track wherever there is the possibility of a freight train passing through the station.


----------



## frequentflyer

Thank you for the answer, I just assumed a box car and pax car had the same spacing from the platform.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have not read all 107 pages, but why do Brightline cars need a sliding plank to bridge the gap to the platform? The Amfleet and VL cars on the NEC do not have this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Are the platforms set further back to allow freight trains to pass through the stations?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really. Even at level boarding stations generally Amtrak trains require a bridge plate for wheelchairs. Brightline's gap filler eliminates that need. You can literally just roll on or roll off a wheelchair as soon as the door opens. People who can walk normally can walk across the gap, if the filler were absent as easily as they do all the time at say Newark Penn Station.
> 
> All Brightline stations have a freight bypass track for unusual loads that do not fit the standard loading gauge. The platforms are designed to accommodate all standard loading gauges. According to the guys planning all extensions all stations will be designed with a freight bypass track wherever there is the possibility of a freight train passing through the station.
Click to expand...

This sounds as if it's only the unusual loads that are the problem, in other words, most "normal" freight cars don't conflict with Brightline platforms.

Have I understood this correctly?

Any idea, roughly, what percentage of freight trains would be considered to have unusual loads?

Unfortnately I cannot find the link now. But I once read a web page about a railroad tunnel in Germany (I think?) that was normally a double track tunnel. But for the purpose of moving exceptional loads a third track had been added down the middle later. Of course that track could only be used when the other two tracks were out of use. I guess it was only rarely required. i think they use it to bring large transformers and other gear to a power plant..


----------



## blueman271

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_track

This link will help explain gauntlet tracks.


----------



## jis

FEC does not use Gauntlet tracks at the Brightline stations. They have a track that bypasses the station. Typically there are three tracks at each run through station with an island platform between two tracks and no platform on the third track.


----------



## me_little_me

Given that you are starting brand new service with brand new trains and brand new stations, it makes sense to spend a few bucks to eliminate gaps not only for wheelchairs but for others with canes or walkers (this IS Florida, you know) and those that just aren't paying close attention or who have hungry lawyers.


----------



## VentureForth

I just saw this: https://www.thenextmiami.com/to-meet-demand-brightline-is-adding-a-lot-more-trains/

If they are only earning $670k every three months, that's only $2.6M/yr. That needs to increase by a factor of 30 to meet their $77M/yr plan.






Do they have that much excess capacity and/or ticket price demand availability?


----------



## chrsjrcj

That was before the price increase and service to Miami. Let's see how the rest of the year plays out.


----------



## VentureForth

chrsjrcj said:


> That was before the price increase and service to Miami. Let's see how the rest of the year plays out.


I get that it was the introductory quarter. One not expecting immediate profit. I know I'll see growth. But the question is, 30x?


----------



## cirdan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Amtrak doesn't have this problem on the NEC, but NJ Transit certainly does. When I get on at Princeton Junction, for example, I have to climb up into the train over a gap, with no handrail close to the door to hang on to. So it seems to me that Brightline is taking care of a problem like that at stations with a similar gap before an accident can happen.


A typical problem with legacy systems. Every piece of equipment needs to be compatible to the oldest piece of infrastructure still in use at the time that that piece of equipment was being designed, and with equipment types being produced over many years, and lasting many more years, there are loads of legacy compromises being carried forward.

Brightline had the opportunity of designing everything from scratch and could so achieve uniform dimensions for platforms and taylor the doors to that.


----------



## AGM.12

The FEC has said that it would re-route its through freights over to the Tri rail ex Seaboard line as far as West Palm Beach. Have they done this yet?


----------



## jis

AGM.12 said:


> The FEC has said that it would re-route its through freights over to the Tri rail ex Seaboard line as far as West Palm Beach. Have they done this yet?


No. They have not rerouted anything yet and have not mentioned any timeline for such either. The only Tri-Rail to FEC/AAF transfer that has a timeline (early to mid 2019) is Tri-Rail serving Miami Central station in the downtown. 
At present it is impossible to get from Tr-Rail to FECR northbound at West Palm Beach. Only Tr-Rail/CSX/Amtrak can get to FECR southbound just south of Mangonia Park. So any FECR freight rerouting is at best several years away, even if the could get FECR freights from their Hialeah Yard somehow onto Tri-Rail in Hialeah.


----------



## cirdan

AGM.12 said:


> The FEC has said that it would re-route its through freights over to the Tri rail ex Seaboard line as far as West Palm Beach. Have they done this yet?


Doesn't that mean all freights?

Or are there any local freight spurs stll being served along that section?


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## crescent-zephyr

There is a gap between Amtrak equipment and the high level platforms on the NEC and elsewhere. If im rolling a suitcase I have to lift it over the gap when boarding Amtrak. I don't have to do that on Brightline.


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## chrsjrcj

There are a number of local industries on the FEC in South Florida. In addition, a couple of freights either originate/terminate in Fort Lauderdale, or at least set off. There is also a train that sets off at the Port of Palm Beach, but that is north of the refurbished crossover.


----------



## Anderson

So, a few points:
(1) The $77m is EBITDA, not revenue. Overall revenue is pegged to be at $142m. However, 24% of that is supposed to come from "external" sources (station revenue, parking, advertising, etc.). I suspect this includes access fees for Tri-Rail. That leaves $108m to come from ticket sales.
(2) $108m/yr in ticket revenue over 2.94m tickets comes to an average ticket price of $36.73 (versus the "starting" $9.04 in March). This feels a bit high, but not entirely unreasonable. My guess, based on existing fares, is an average price of somewhere around $18-20 for Smart and $50 for Select. Compare this to the current revenue numbers (a bit under $10/passenger), which were burdened by both the short run (WPB-FLL only) and introductory fare rates.

So, moving back to "Where we are now", 2.94m pax/yr equals 245k pax/month (on average). Let's call it 250k/month. We are presently at 32,900 pax for March (about 13% of the intended amount), albeit in something a bit above a "half schedule". That, in particular, should improve things.

In theory, the plan would be to quadruple per-passenger revenue...but bear in mind that there is a good chance that simply adding Miami and nudging fares up to start with will roughly double this for June (May will be a little wonky for obvious reasons...there will be something like 10,000 tickets averaging about $4 apiece in the mix from the MIA opening weekend, so PPR will be sandbagged by a few dollars as a result).

By the way, my guess is that we'll wind up somewhere in the ballpark of 100-120k pax/month from August forward (with a full hourly schedule in place WPB-MIA). I don't think this is too out-of-sorts compared with the March numbers.

As to pricing, my guess is that Brightline is going to use a slow shift to "actual" dynamic pricing (raising prices on close-to-last-minute tickets on near-sold-out trains and then adjusting from there). My read is also that the end-to-end coach rate won't be 75% of the business class rate...it's more likely to be 50-65% of it (so, at $65 for business you'd be looking at coach between $30 and $45).


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## jis

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-adding-five-daily-departures-from-wpb-charging-for-parking/63O43UwOidlgjODmNbHt3O/

Brightline adding five runs and starting to charge for parking.


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## Anderson

Thanks for the link, Jis. I think that's just a reference to the expansion the hourly service that's been circulating for a few weeks, but I'm glad they feel comfortable charging for parking now... That does speak to a strengthening bottom line with this.

By the way, does anybody know when we should expect second-quarter ridership results?


----------



## Brian_tampa

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/High-speed-rail-firm-scouting-land-for-station-and-development-around-proposed-Rays-ballpark-site_170561134

It seems Brightline has been busy behind the scenes here in Tampa. They are already looking at various properties around downtown Tampa and near Ybor City for their station. Two of the properties are close to the old train station and more importantly, close to Channelside and Ybor City. There is a lot of planned development near these locations. I wonder how they will get to this area from I-4? That last mile will be interesting to see where there come off of I-4. In the article I linked to, it is stated that Brightline has already spent a lot of effort determining the route to the station. The other potential location being looked at is near I-275 on the site that the old HSR project had its station planned.

I wonder if Brightline knows something about the bid process for the ROW that no one else does? They seem quite confident in being able to get financing for phase 2 to Orlando in order to even plan for phase 3 now. I wonder what the opponents on the Treasure Coast think of all this? Haha


----------



## jis

The opponents on the Treasure Coast "think"?


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> The opponents on the Treasure Coast "think"?


LOL true...


----------



## Anderson

Actually, I think the cause and effect here are (oddly) upside down: Orlando-Tampa ("Orlampa") should actually "force the issue" on West Palm-Orlando. If Brightline has clearance to build Orlampa, the combined Miami-West Palm-Orlando-Tampa operation is likely to be on sturdier footing than just Miami-West Palm-Orlando.

Now, for a fun question: Presuming that this doesn't cost more than the HSR operation would have, does Orlampa work on its own? Obviously there's the potential for a substantial real estate angle, and the exact routing opens up some doors for something over by Disney (something I suspect Disney will work with, even if potentially with some reluctance), but I'm wondering just how the financial dynamics are likely to play out here.


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## jis

Brightline going to 16 trains each way per day starting 6th August. No change for weekends for now.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson, the Tampa-Orlando section might not work on its own but would be very close to being profitable. The number of trips between the two metro areas IIRC is around 100M per year. That is partly why the HSR companies that bid on the cancelled project claimed they could cover the cost to run it back in 2010. I agree that adding Tampa does strengthen the whole network and will add passengers and revenue, at least more than enough to cover the cost of building the extension! The key will be the RE development in Tampa around the station. There is so much being built in downtown now, that by the time Brightline gets here, the downtown area will not look anything like it does today.

If AAF can find the right property in downtown Tampa, it would be second to Miami in development potential. This is why I have always said Tampa would be built before an extension to Jacksonville.

I'm not sure if AAF would build a station so close to the airport station. That might impact revenue if the trains are filled with local trips between MCO and Disney World versus longer, more expensive trips to and from Tampa and the rest of the system. It also depends on if AAF chooses 528 or 417 as the route to get to I-4 from MCO. At 4 hours to Miami from Tampa, AAF would get business as that drive is not good on I-75. In perfect traffic, Tampa to Miami is 4.5 hours possibly 5+ hours with traffic in Miami on the 836 and 826.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Brian - two thoughts about previous posts.

It would seem that the Tampa Park Apartments would be the catbird seat. Of course that depends on how much surrounding property they could snatch up and at what prices. If they did, it would seem departing I4 at 12th and then south along Nuccio wouldnt be as painful as TUS. The apartments are having big problems and it would give Brightline the chance to build a modern station matching the others. I would love to go over and have Ybor, new Rays stadium, Channelside... all so close!

Second (and as a TWDC engineer this is only my personal opinion) - if there was a Disney area station...why not a convention center/I drive station (like other HSR,maglev etc wanted) and have an alternate local stopping train or even a local set.

I love thinking about this stuff and I am thrilled that Brightline is moving forward quickly.


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## Brian_tampa

Scott, they would probably come off of 15th Street at I-4. Yes the Tampa Park Apartments are mired in legal issues now. I guess they could build an elevated structure along 15th and 12th streets until they got to the apartment land. It would be ironic as that site is adjacent to TUS. At this point everything is still up,in the air.

What is a TWDC engineer? I'm also an engineer but on the industrial side. If they choose 417 then I-Drive is eliminated and only WDW can be considered. In any case, a Tampa station would have more potential of RE development than the MCO site. I think Lakeland will get a station before WDW. It is too bad they can't do anything near MCO to help revenue. But they seem to work well with Deseret Ranch along 528 east of MCO. I can see something out there in 10 years. Deseret and FECI are RE developers at heart. That will be the future for Orlando and Brightline.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Totally agree with the Deseret. The amount of property they own is staggering. And they think like Brightline toward development.

Yes, if 417 is the route then a Disney stop would have to be near Celebation and it would require Disney buses and other local transportation to integrate. A lot of ifs. (TWDC - I am a IT design engineer for the overall corporate- as opposed to parks/resorts or business unit like ABC). You probably already know we have the Magical Express bus service (contracted by Mears transport) for direct MCO to your hotel including baggage service...so maybe just for non MCO traffic?

When I suggested the Convention/I Drive that would of course be if the route followed the old HSR route - almost due west from MCO. The 417 route would cheaper to build with a faster transit time and only stop at Lakeland. With FECI oriented towards real estate and transit related development that route seems much more likely.


----------



## Anderson

(1) Remember, not all trains must make all stops. A "Disney-area" stop could be covered by some chunk of trains (possibly biasing towards off-peak hours). Also, pricing discrimination can be used to avoid too much lost revenue. With that being said, Celebration is 19-20 miles from OIA (depending on routing), so it is probably a reasonable distance from the OIA stop to add. Lakeland is another 35 miles or so down the road (so 55-ish miles from OIA) and Tampa another 35-ish miles from there (so close to 90 miles total). That stopping pattern isn't out of sorts with what Brightline has in South Florida as-is (three stations over about 70 miles versus four over 85-90 miles). Adding one or two other stops is also in line with Brightline's (apparent/hinted-at) plans for South Florida (reserving the right to three more stops).

(2) I think that if this project comes to pass, there's a decent chance that a commuter-ish component comes in on both ends. If the tracks are mostly going to be in place regardless, then depending on the routing it might make sense to just contract with Brightline to run a shuttle train service to a transfer station (whether on the same level or elevated where the lines intersect). The 15-30 minute headways proposed as part of SunRail Phase 3, plus a hypothetical 1-2 trains per hour in each direction on Brightline, don't seem to be incompatible if you double-track the line. Bear in mind that Brightline HAS to cross the A-line to get to I-4. The main question is whether the routing used is along SR528 (with the crossover up by Sand Lake Road) or SR417 (with the crossover down by Kissimmee).

I think there are also substantial real estate opportunities for Brightline, especially on the Tampa end. I know that we're talking about downtown, but (almost moreso than in South Florida) there seems to be room for Brightline to get money both coming and going if they can pitch a commuter project to the folks in Tampa while patching together substantial developments around there.

Stepping back, presuming I had a relatively blank check on SunRail's part? If the plan is to run a "connecting shuttle" (and not add a bunch of OIA-downtown trains) and wedge in a "transfer station", I'd have a very serious talk with Brightline about how to combine the projects (and just operate the "phase three" in question as part of Brightline's overall operations). This would go double if the transfer could be done up at Sand Lake Road (though I admit that SR417 may win out due to the direct routing) given the potential to expand upon this.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If Brightline is smart (and so far they seem VERY smart) they have already been talking to the Disney Company about taking over "Disney's Magical Express" Bus Service from Mears Transportation. A dedicated, branded, high speed train that serves the Orlando airport and Disney property would be a dream for their marketing.

I'm not sure how close the FEC tracks get to Port Canaveral, but Brightline could also operate the Disney World to Disney Cruise Line shuttle as well.


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## chrsjrcj

Previously, Disney said they would only direct guests to use the proposed HSR, if it used the 417 route (bypassing I-Drive and SeaWorld). I personally think there is better ridership potential to serving both Disney/Celebration and I-Drive, even if it means Disney doesn't directly tell their guests to use Brightline.


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## crescent-zephyr

That was a different system... Brightline isn't planning an I-drive / sea world stop are they?

Im suggesting a direct Airport to Disney train. It would be branded for Disney and go directly to Disney property.


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## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> That was a different system... Brightline isn't planning an I-drive / sea world stop are they?
> 
> Im suggesting a direct Airport to Disney train. It would be branded for Disney and go directly to Disney property.


They've talked about that for 40 years. A monorail initially...


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## Caesar La Rock

^
And the monorail idea essentially died last year on top of that.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> (1) Remember, not all trains must make all stops.


This is true.

But as soon as you start dropping stops you lose the ability to have a clockface timetable with the same service at every minute past every hour all day. A dropped stopped also means differing travel times which means the train will be earlier at all subsequent stops totally messing with that neat clockface.predictability

In my view dropping stops only makes sense once you go to a twice hourly service. Then you can have an express and an all stops train. But before you get there, you need the ridership that can make it work.


----------



## Anderson

I think the monorail idea died back in the 80s (there were initially plans to link the TTC at Magic Kingdom to the hotel area out by what is now Disney Springs, among other ideas, but a lot of this went away in the first half of that decade). You're probably thinking of the maglev idea that was, pardon the pun, floated over the last decade (which, while technically set up as a form of monorail, was different from the earlier project).

I was unaware that they had finally put a fork in the maglev proposal down there...not that I'm sorry to see it go (it had always felt like it had far more flash than substance).

And frankly, I think that realistically Disney would have ended up working with the HSR folks in the end either way...trying to force the SR417 route made solid business sense for them (as it would cut out Sea World/Universal from direct access), but once the tracks were in the ground I think they would probably have come around if there was a stop "in the right neighborhood". I find it particularly telling that (presuming I'm reading the discussions correctly) Disney was claiming that they would only have directed their guests to use the train if the train went by the route that actually served WDW less effectively (e.g. a stop down by Celebration is somewhat further out than one over by Disney Springs).

If they try that this time around? Well...given that this is the third segment in the project (rather than the first), Disney would probably be giving up some chunk of business coming from South Florida as well.

Edit: On the "all trains" bit, I agree...though WDW is on the "far side" of Orlando and so it'll be impacted by the nature of the Tampa operation.


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## crescent-zephyr

In regards to maglev being more "flash" that's what disney used to be all about. The Disneyland monorail replaced the tomorrowland streamliner train for the novelty of being the first monorail in the western hemisphere.


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## chrsjrcj

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> (1) Remember, not all trains must make all stops.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true.
> 
> But as soon as you start dropping stops you lose the ability to have a clockface timetable with the same service at every minute past every hour all day. A dropped stopped also means differing travel times which means the train will be earlier at all subsequent stops totally messing with that neat clockface.predictability
> 
> In my view dropping stops only makes sense once you go to a twice hourly service. Then you can have an express and an all stops train. But before you get there, you need the ridership that can make it work.
Click to expand...

Good luck adding additional trains on the FEC with the New River crossing in Fort Lauderdale. The chance of any commuter rail service on the entire length of the FEC died when Brightline Built their Fort Lauderdale station.


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## jis

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-high-speed-rail-key-to-florida-future-20180814-story.html#


----------



## jis

Interesting. Maybe the trick is to get people in positions of power sufficiently invested personally in passenger rail and stuff ancillary to it to secure the future of passenger rail. Afterall that is the way this country appears to run Coming to think of it, wasn't that always the case throughout the heyday of railroads?

https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/08/16/rick-scott-and-wife-invested-in-parent-company-bidding-on-tampa-high-speed-rail/


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## chrsjrcj

So much for believing that the state would be on the hook for cost overruns of the original HSR project that he rejected.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Interesting. Maybe the trick is to get people in positions of power sufficiently invested personally in passenger rail and stuff ancillary to it to secure the future of passenger rail. Afterall that is the way this country appears to run Coming to think of it, wasn't that always the case throughout the heyday of railroads?
> 
> https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/08/16/rick-scott-and-wife-invested-in-parent-company-bidding-on-tampa-high-speed-rail/


Looks like he's putting his money where his mouth is: in private enterprises.


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## chrsjrcj

More like putting his mouth where his money is. Remember, one of Rick Scott's advisors in 2011 had a connection to All Aboard Florida.

Rick Scott advisor had inside track to keep All Aboard Florida rail project rolling


----------



## chrsjrcj

Looking at fares, the starting price for a Select ticket appears to have gone up to $40 for the full WPB to Miami trip. I believe they were in the $30-$35 range before. Smart fares start at $20, but some off-peak trips start at $15. This is more or less the same.

$20 isn't a terrible value for Smart, but I think it's hard to justify spending $40 on a Select ticket. Of course, Brightline most think the demand is there.

Edit to add: It looks like starting October 1st, prices go up to $45/$25. Oof. Glad I got my joyrides in when I did (and trust me, I did quite a few




).


----------



## GBNorman

From Salzburg At--

A raise to the fare level immediately noted HAD to be expected. The $10-$15 was clearly set forth as introductory. Joyrides on the cheap are over; time to market the service, including parking, at a level at which, just maybe, the losses from such can be sustained until service to MCO begins.


----------



## Anderson

Well, this _is_ in line with their projected revenue model. I suspect there will be some dynamic pricing in the mix, too...it's a lot easier to get $45-50 for a ticket at rush hour than at 2300.


----------



## GBNorman

From Starbucks Salzburg Hbf (going home - "The Longest Day")--

Of course, AAF wants to develop demand pricing, but they have no model whatsoever to draw upon. Likely they have hired some high powered "Final Four" consulting outfit, but they too will be throwing darts @$5,000ea.

Expect many pricing adjustments.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Interesting. Maybe the trick is to get people in positions of power sufficiently invested personally in passenger rail and stuff ancillary to it to secure the future of passenger rail.


Isn't that what lobbying is all about.

I don't want to beat the drum for privatization, as I see many risks. But one of the strengths of a privatized industry is that they can do heavy lobbying work in a way that a government owned industry cannot, and in a way that maybe in the past the Unions were able to do, but they have long ago lost that power..


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I just got an email that they are introducing a new class: SmartPLUS. It looks exactly like Smart, except that you get a free snack and drink.


----------



## VentureForth

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I just got an email that they are introducing a new class: SmartPLUS. It looks exactly like Smart, except that you get a free snack and drink.


Makes you wonder if the snacks are worth it.


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## VentureForth

I'm not going to be able to afford my joy ride any more. One way, maybe.


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## jis

They also considerably upgraded their Select offering from what it has been

http://image.guest.gobrightline.com/lib/fe5f15707c62007e741c/m/1/070bf01f-8b66-4fa6-b3b6-a22fc2d23268.png?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BL-NewSelect-2018August24&utm_content=amenities&blid=cpteyI/ecEyKD2LO3VM6Ow


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## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I just got an email that they are introducing a new class: SmartPLUS. It looks exactly like Smart, except that you get a free snack and drink.


Is it much pricier than Smart?


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## jis

One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select

A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.

Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select
> 
> A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.
> 
> Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.


I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.


----------



## jis

Too much baseless armchair quarterbacking eh? What do you exactly know about the business models and imperatives under which Brightline operates, so as to feel empowered to use words like "dumb" to describe their marketing and management decisions, and how many for profit corporations in the hospitality and transportation business have your run to date? None, right?

How would you know what price is absurd? If the market bears it why is it absurd? isn't that how pricing is supposed to work?


----------



## VentureForth

You expect operating losses in the beginning to attract market share. The fact that they are able to raise the prices seems very promising. If they weren't meeting ridership numbers, they wouldn't be raising the prices.

I've always measured the value of something generally by how long it takes to make the money back spent on such a product. $45 for a 1 hour ride is appropriate for executives, experienced trade professionals, etc. $25 for the same ride is appropriate for a younger family crowd - maybe an income around $50k/yr.

For the rest of us looking for real value Tri-Rail is available.


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select
> 
> A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.
> 
> Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

What Brightline is doing is exactly how you make a profit. You add these amenities to attract the premium consumer, where most of the transportation profit is.


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## Mystic River Dragon

cpotisch--

Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"

In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.

Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....



)


----------



## MARC Rider

Mystic River Dragon said:


> cpotisch--
> 
> Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"
> 
> In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.
> 
> Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....
> 
> 
> 
> )


Heh, a couple of years ago, I remember certain people riding MARC, the Baltimore light rail. and even (gasp!) the Wahington Metro "just for fun."


----------



## chrsjrcj

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select
> 
> A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.
> 
> Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Welcome to private sector vs. public sector transportation.

In reality, Brightline is a 66 mile horizontal elevator connecting properties in Miami and West Palm (and soon a commercial property in Fort Lauderdale).


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## chrsjrcj

If one can only do Brightline one-way, I'd recommend boarding in West Palm Beach, riding to Miami, take Metrorail to Miami Airport (hope you get one of the new cars, if not, you'll feel like you need to take a shower), then take Tri-Rail to West Palm Beach. AlternativeIly, you can do the reverse (Tri-Rail to Miami and Brightline back). I've done both variants, and didn't really see any pros or cons to one way vs the other.

In West Palm Beach, there is a free trolley that runs from the Tri-Rail station (it boards on the eastside of the station, along Tamarind Ave) to Clematis Street which is a block away from the Brightline station. Alternatively, you can walk along Datura Street. It's about a 10 minute walk between the two stations, but there are no shade trees, so if it's hot you will be drenched in sweat (speaking from experience)!

You can park at the West Palm Beach Tri-Rail station, since it is free. If you buy a Select ticket on Brightline, parking is free in their garage.


----------



## Anderson

MARC Rider said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch--
> 
> Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"
> 
> In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.
> 
> Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> Heh, a couple of years ago, I remember certain people riding MARC, the Baltimore light rail. and even (gasp!) the Wahington Metro "just for fun."
Click to expand...

Hey, at least with the DC Metro you get an adrenaline rush of "Will Metro catch fire?" thrown in!


----------



## jis

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-considers-adding-treasure-coast-stop/uYYTjEw1dxa0yXKgW18sjI



> The Brightline rail service is considering one or more stops in the Treasure Coast, a region whose politicians have sought to stop the train from speeding through their turf en route to Orlando. Brightline has asked city managers in Stuart, Fort Pierce, Vero Beach and Sebastian to suggest possible locations for train stations, said Russell Roberts, Brightline’s vice president of government affairs.[/url]


So they are starting the process that they went through with Brevard County 18 months back. We almost have a final site selection completed.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-considers-adding-treasure-coast-stop/uYYTjEw1dxa0yXKgW18sjI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brightline rail service is considering one or more stops in the Treasure Coast, a region whose politicians have sought to stop the train from speeding through their turf en route to Orlando. Brightline has asked city managers in Stuart, Fort Pierce, Vero Beach and Sebastian to suggest possible locations for train stations, said Russell Roberts, Brightline’s vice president of government affairs.[/url]
> 
> 
> 
> So they are starting the process that they went through with Brevard County 18 months back. We almost have a final site selection completed.
Click to expand...

They oughtta just let those counties watch Briteline speed through.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Stuart is (in my opinion) the most appealing city that the FEC travels through, and may be the most successful initially. Fort Pierce is centrally located, but not a very appealing city (suburbs have really won out in St. Lucie County). I understand that Fort Pierce has been somewhat warm toward Brightline, and a Brightline stop here may spark a rejuvenation for the city, but it's also a long term commitment and risk that I'm not sure a private company would be willing to take.


----------



## jis

Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.


Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.


----------



## Anderson

bretton88 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.
Click to expand...

I think the key there is that the property is basically "on-property" at the airport. There's growth and development to be had in that part of Orlando (Lake Nona is a growing area), but they don't own the right chunks of land. I think flight paths might also be at issue for part of the land in question...a 4-5 story station building/parking complex is a far cry from a major condo/office complex.


----------



## cirdan

bretton88 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.
Click to expand...

Obviously they can't develop anything inside the airport as the airport owns that land and won't be selling it.

But it might just theoretically be imagineable that at some point in the future tehy will open a second station in Orlando (or at least the Orlano metroplex), maybe as part of the Tampa extension.

If I were Brightline, i would be keeping the proposed location secret so I can buy the land before the news sends land value skyrocketing.

I'm sure Brightline has got all the options mapped out and knows which are worth pursuing and which are not..


----------



## JRR

A little off topic, but yesterday evening, we were at the light on Dixie Hwy. in Boca Raton, waiting to make a turn West onto Palmetto Park Blvd., when the train signals started flashing and the gates came down, all of a sudden a car coming south on Dixie Hwy. traveling fast went through the redlight on Dixie, made a right onto Palmetto Park, and crashed through the lowered gate. Surprisingly, the gate didn't break but wobbled upwards and then came back down. Within seconds, the Brightline train roared through on it's northward trip to West Palm.

Incredible how stupid some people are!


----------



## Anderson

So, apparently while I was out of town Brightline finally got approval on the $1.75bn bond issue. With a little bit of luck, that will get construction moving on the Orlando segment. The usual back-and-forth seems to have ensued over Q1 ridership (I _really_ want to see June's ridership/revenue numbers more than Q2 as a whole, since Q1 was "sandbagged" both by losing the first chunk of January to not-yet-started service and by the fact that Miami service didn't start until May).


Links:

https://www.google.com/search?q=brightline+ridership&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0xKeL56HdAhXD41MKHfWfDwIQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/bond-hearing-brightline-executives-opponents-paint-vastly-different-pictures/SySqVY0ruJ5OUInRKBQ8eN/


----------



## jis

Locally I am hearing that it will take at least six months to get supplies ordered and delivered. Any visible construction in Brevard County will start early next year. That is the scuttlebutt from folks at FECRS who seem to be well connected with FECR folks.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Jis, assuming the FO relocation is nearly complete and the contractor is ready, they should be able to immediately begin earthwork to prepare the roadbed for the second track and lay down concrete ties soon after. They have Rocla in Ft Pierce that I am sure can begin producing concrete ties on short notice since that plant was built mainly for AAF. I can see the CWR and switch components taking longer to receive. I would think the longest lead time items would be the signal system and the bridge components for the two new bridge structures over waterways on the FECR. Of course the maintenance facility at MCO is a whole different matter!

I have read that they just now awarded the contract for railway construction in the past few weeks. I think this was for the FECR segment, not the new Orlando section. That section will be put out for bid this month. So part of the delay is that they did/do not have a construction company lined up. It always takes time for the contractor to hire people and begin mobilization. I recall the GOAA May 2018 meeting presentation said major work on phase 2 would begin no sooner than October 2018, if things went smoothly.

Edit: a lot of good updated information can be found here in the attached pdf file from the FDFC Meeting packet.pab_docs.pdf


----------



## Anderson

The delay in rounding up a contractor isn't a surprise...I don't think too many folks would have wanted to bid on a contract that would be contingent on a potentially dicey bond approval process. I suspect that /some/ on-the-ground work can begin (e.g. roadbed work, possibly some preparation along SR528, etc.) but a bunch will take a few months to "spool up".


----------



## jis

I was mainly referring to work along FECR. I have no idea what the situation is along 528. That is in the far other corner of Brevard County, and it is a big county. FECR is less than 5 miles from my place.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I believe they asked for proposals for the FECR segment earlier this year. FECI is always very methodical with stuff like this, so it is no surprise it took them 4-6 months to award the contract. Keep in mind that Orlando must be connected in order for the rest of the system to be profitable. They are, in my mind, at a point where they must finance phase 2 through the preferred PAB or RRIF loan mechanisms, or with higher cost private loans/equity. Phase 2 will happen no matter the outcome of the latest PAB lawsuit that the judge is considering at his moment.

I am sure the potential bidders were made aware of the risks when they were invited to bid on phase 2. I do wonder if Archer Western has the inside track now since they did the work on phase 1?


----------



## GBNorman

JRR said:


> A little off topic, but yesterday evening, we were at the light on Dixie Hwy. in Boca Raton, waiting to make a turn West onto Palmetto Park Blvd., when the train signals started flashing and the gates came down, all of a sudden a car coming south on Dixie Hwy. traveling fast went through the redlight on Dixie, made a right onto Palmetto Park, and crashed through the lowered gate. Surprisingly, the gate didn't break but wobbled upwards and then came back down. Within seconds, the Brightline train roared through on it's northward trip to West Palm.
> 
> Incredible how stupid some people are!


Scene of the crime.

S Dixie Hwy

https://goo.gl/maps/9LaUnDF1FDN2


----------



## Anderson

So, we don't have _published_ numbers for Q2 yet, but there's a nugget in this interview (where Mr. Goddard indicates that results will be released "this month"):
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/biz-monday/article217799110.html

"Our ridership increased by 42 percent in the last quarter and revenue increased by 72 percent. We are on the right trajectory."

That would put ridership at about 106,200 [A] and revenue at $1,142,000 *. Some thoughts on those (presumed) figures:*
*-Ridership being up 42% is a mixed bag depending on what those numbers actually mean: It *_*would*_* translate into Miami's opening doubling ridership (more or less), but you have about 5-6k "excess" riders during Miami's opening weekend. Likewise, Q1 had 78 days of revenue service (90 days in the quarter less 12 days in early January without service) while Q2 had 91 days of revenue service. If you "throw out" the excess from that weekend (I think this is a fair adjustment) you're probably at a hair over 100k riders...which puts daily ridership up somewhere between 3% and 10% vs March. To be fair, I'm more interested in June's ridership (no Miami startup weekend distortion), **and it's always possible that I'm misinterpreting these numbers.*

*--Also, when they added Miami they temporarily cut the number of trains on weekdays by two or three (due to trackwork). That probably knocked ridership by a bit (going from, IIRC, 11/day to 8/day), so I can allow that as a partial defense of Brightline's "soggy" numbers.*
*-Revenue-wise, I'm encouraged by the bump in yield factors. I would have expected a little bit more than the 21.2% bump there ($10.75 vs $8.88), but I think that's one place that Miami's opening weekend distorts things pretty badly. If I throw out that weekend [C] PPR is $11.47 and the yield bump is 29.2%, which is a *_*big*_* swing. I'm guessing that the post-Miami startup yield bump around 40-45% (again, half of the quarter is operating on the same terms as Q1).*

*Looking at the trend (and trying to control for Miami's opening weekend), my guess is that June's numbers are going to look something like this:*
*-Ridership: 40,000 (annual trend around 485,000)*

*-Revenue: $500,000 (annual trend around $6,100,000) to $540,000 (annual trend around $6,600,000)*

*-PPR: $12.50 (assuming a 40% bump per above) to $13.40 (assuming a 50% bump per above).*

*The good news is that revenue is trending the right way (June revenue would, under this picture, be a bit shy of Q1's revenue) and** there's definitely growth room in Q3 (with frequencies going back up and higher prices coming into play), especially if the higher ticket prices (and paid-for parking) stick. A generous interpretation might allow monthly revenue into September to be over $1m (with 16x daily frequencies and higher fares) plus an indefinite amount of ancillary revenue from F&B sales and parking. The bad news is that if I'm reading these numbers right, this is *_*way*_* below where they need to be for break-even.*

*I'm not going to lie, if the numbers I've crunched are right I'm a little bit worried about ridership. I have little doubt there will be further ramp-up, but I'd *_*really*_* like to know what they were expecting if this is exceeding expectations.*

*Edit: Ok, I checked the Fitch report from December (**https://www.fitchratings.com/site/pr/1033816**) and I'm a little less worried. Their "base case" had ridership in 2018 at 587,000 (I think we'll end up below that, but not by *_*that*_* much and I think there's a good chance we'll at least be "on trend" for that going into the fall).*

*[A] 1.42*74,780 and rounded to the nearest 100 riders*

* 1.72*663,700 and rounded to the nearest $1000*

*[C] I'm removing 9,500 riders and $33,250 in revenue. I presume an average ticket yield of about $3.50 (Select was $5 and Smart was $3) and going with 36 one-way frequencies over two days and allowing for some WPB-FLL traffic, I think 9,500 riders is a reasonable overall estimate (the 575 riders it presumes FLL-WPB is a bit low, but I think Brightline blocking out trains on the northern end despite scads of space being available probably hit ridership on that section).*


----------



## Anderson

Another, substantially different observation:
Running a search for next week, I get the following times available (by day):
Southbound, from WPB:

M T W R F S U
0530: X X X X X 
0600: X X X X X 
0700: X X X X X X X
0800: X X X X X 
0900: X X X X X X X
1000: X X X X X 
1100: X X X X X X X
1200: X X X X X 
1300: X X
1400: X X X X X 
1500: X X X X X X X
1600: X X X X X 
1700: X X X X X X X
1800: X X X X X 
1900: X X X X X X X
2000: X X X X X 
2100: X X X X X X X
NB: When searching for this week, I get fewer frequencies. Monday isn't showing an 0530 (I will blame this on it being only an hour out). Frequencies between 0800 and 1400 (inclusive) are pushed forwards by 15 minutes, and in addition to 0530, the 1100 and 1500 trains are missing (1300 is also missing, but that's standard above). Tuesday thru Thursday show the above, but with the 0530 frequency back in (again, I'm blaming when I'm running the search). Friday shows normal service.

Northbound, from MIA:

M T W R F S U
0713: X X X X X 
0813: X X X X X 
0913: X X X X X X X
1013: X X X X X 
1113: X X X X X X X
1213: X X X X X 
1313: X X X X X X X
1413: X X X X X 
1513: X X
1613: X X X X X 
1713: X X X X X X X
1813: X X X X X 
1913: X X X X X X X
2013: X X X X X 
2113: X X X X X X X
2213: X X X X X 
2313: X X X X X X
NB: There is no corresponding 15-minute shift in the northbound trains and no missing frequency to correspond to the missing 0530. However, the regularly-scheduled trains at 1113 and 1313 are also missing (corresponding to the above).

Does anyone know what's up with the 15-minute shift and/or the two "missing" round trips?

Also, the 1813 from Miami on Thursday shows Select already sold out.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Does anyone know what's up with the 15-minute shift and/or the two "missing" round trips?



No, but i would assume that in view of ongoing experience and possible problems being identified, that they are going to contiinue tweaking and fine-tuning the timetable.

I guess this is fairly normal for an all new service serving a market that was not previosuly accustomed to anything comparable.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what's up with the 15-minute shift and/or the two "missing" round trips?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, but i would assume that in view of ongoing experience and possible problems being identified, that they are going to contiinue tweaking and fine-tuning the timetable.
> 
> I guess this is fairly normal for an all new service serving a market that was not previosuly accustomed to anything comparable.
Click to expand...

Well, and of course it might be construction/track work of some sort.


----------



## Anderson

So, I got curious about the ridership numbers at this point and spent the last hour tallying occupied seats on Brightline for tomorrow. Noting that the 0530 isn't showing up for tomorrow out of WPB, I tallied up the number of occupied seats on each train. A note: Based on what I have seen, there's a good chance that Brightline is selling at least a modest number of day-of-travel and/or walk-up tickets, so these numbers may be a little on the low side (especially later in the day...as things stand, if I'm going to Miami for dinner I have absolutely no reason to pick a train back north before I get done with dinner...the chance of a sellout seems painfully remote).

There are no real surprises in the overarching ridership patterns, but the numbers are a fair bit lower than I was expecting. Overall, 578 seats show as sold (ignoring any possible wheelchair spaces). Of these, 446 (77.2%) are in Smart, 49 (8.5%) are in SmartPLUS, and 83 (14.4%) are in Select. Note that I only checked Miami-West Palm, so I don't know how many riders are for the full length versus one part or the other. Also note that it seems possible that the large group may or may not be quite that size.

If I presume that the ridership divides evenly between partial riders and full-length riders and presuming no discounts, revenue would be $7805 for Smart, $1102.50 for SmartPlus, and $2905 for Select for a total of $11,812.50. This would, in turn, generate a PPR of $20.44...but on WAY lower ridership than I would expect.

Please note that I'm going to try to run tallies for the rest of the week, as well as to check tallies in the middle of the day and/or the afternoon for later-in-the-day trains.

Seat counts:
Select (F): 48 seats (plus one wheelchair seat)
-$40 MIA-PBI, $30 MIA-FLL/FLL-PBI
Smart Plus (W): 32 seats (plus two wheelchair seats)
-$25 MIA-PBI, $20 MIA-FLL/FLL-PBI
Smart (Y): 160 seats (plus four wheelchair seats)'
-$20 MIA-PBI, $15 MIA-FLL/FLL-PBI
NB: I cannot account for the wheelchair seats, as they show as "blocked" for me as a non-handicapped pax.

Southbound, 18 Sep 18:
0600: 1 F, 2 W, 15 Y
0700: 7 F, 3 W, 52 Y
0815: 5 F, 4 W, 37 Y
0915: 3 F, 2 W, 7 Y
1015: 10 F, 4 W, 9 Y
1215: 3 F, 4 W, 9 Y
1415: 3 F, 1 W, 8 Y
1600: 3 F, 2 W, 7 Y
1700: 1 F, 0 W, 19 Y
1800: 3 F, 0 W, 13 Y
1900: 0 F, 0 W, 2 Y
2000: 0 F, 2 W, 53 Y*
2100: 6 F, 0 W, 3 Y
All: 45 F, 24 W, 234 Y

*The back car is blocked out except for one row.

Northbound, 18 Sep 18:
0713: 4 F, 2 W, 18 Y
0813: 0 F, 2 W, 12 Y
0913: 0 F, 3 W, 2 Y
1013: 2 F, 1 W, 7 Y
1213: 5 F, 3 W, 7 Y
1413: 9 F, 1 W, 9 Y
1613: 3 F, 6 W, 80 Y*
1713: 8 F, 2 W, 31 Y
1813: 4 F, 4 W, 31 Y
1913: 2 F, 0 W, 4 Y
2013: 0 F, 1 W, 1 Y
2113: 1 F, 0 W, 1 Y
2213: 0 F, 0 W, 6 Y
2313: 0 F, 0 W, 3 Y
All: 38 F, 25 W, 212 Y

*The back car is blocked out except for two seats. Looks like there's a group going north for dinner...
Amusing note: Go to the seatmap on any Brightline train and hover a cursor over a table. A picture of a table appears, alright...and if you look very closely, you can see that it's a table set for four with Empire Builder menus.


----------



## Anderson

Speaking to my suspicion that Brightline might be walkup-heavy, a check between 0538 and 0542 showed:
0600 at 0 F, 2 W, and 21 Y (-1 F, +/-W, +6 Y)
0700 at 7 F, 3 W, and 53 Y(+/-F, +/-W, +1 Y)

Given that the 0530 is apparently Schrodinger's Train, it is possible that the missing F ticket walked on to that one if it ran.

Edit: At 0550, just as the train was about to vanish from the booking system, it was up to 0/2/22 seats filled WPB-MIA. FLL-MIA is showing 1/1/22 at the moment (for the departure in about half an hour). I'm going to try to stay up for another 20-25 minutes to see how that develops.

Edit2: As of 0620, it's up to 1/1/24 out of FLL. Also, the 0713 out of Miami is up to 4/2/21 with about 40 minutes left.

Edit3: Making a final call, the 0600 seems to have ultimately produced 1 F, 2 W, and about 24 Y sales...with one third of those sales occurring in the final few hours. The 0700 (which closes online sales out of WPB in about 15 minutes) is currently sitting at 8 F, 3 W, 67 Y (so now +1 F, +/-W, +14 Y), so about 20% of those sales will have occurred in the final hour (probably close to 25%, given the room for additional FLL-MIA sales for an additional 30 minutes). The 0713 is also up to 23 Y.

Edit4: With about 2 minutes left, the 0700 is at 8 F, 3 W, and 73Y (+1 F and +21 Y from my late night check). So over a quarter of the tickets (and almost 30% of the Y tickets) were walk-ups. Out of FLL and into MIA it has 69 Y taken, but the seats taken are a bit different (there are some seats that show as taken here that weren't for the whole run and v-v). My guess is that in the end, the figure of one third of tickets selling in the 60-90 minutes prior to departure remains fairly common.

Edit5: As of 0700, here are revised tallies for the "morning rush" trains:



Code:


Southbound, 18 Sep 18:
0600:  1 F,  2 W, 24 Y FINAL     (+9)
0700:  8 F,  3 W, 73 Y FINAL/WPB (+22)*
0815:  6 F,  4 W, 41 Y           (+5)
**Add an additional +12 FLL-MIA after WPB closed sales.

Northbound, 18 Sep 18:
0713:  4 F,  2 W, 33 Y FINAL/MIA (+15)
0813:  1 F,  2 W, 12 Y

I won't be able to grab numbers for all the trains, but I'm feeling a LOT better about Brightline's numbers all of a sudden.


----------



## Anderson

So, I was tallying seats for the afternoon rush and my computer didn't properly shut down, taking the data for the trains at 4 PM out of Miami/West Palm with it. I recall roughly those numbers and was able to reconstruct them partially using data from Fort Lauderdale for a few trains.



Code:


Southbound, 18 Sep 18
1600  8 F,  7 W,  14 Y  (checked FLL-MIA)
1600  8 F,  7 W,  20 Y  (recollection)
1700  1 F,  2 W,  26 Y  (checked FLL-MIA)
1800  8 F,  3 W,  19 Y
1900  1 F,  2 W,   2 Y
2000  0 F,  3 W,  64 Y
2100  7 F,  0 W,   8 Y

Northbound, 18 Sep 18
1613 13 F,  9 W, 104 Y  (checked FLL-PBI)
1613 13 F,  8 W, 110 Y  (recollection)
1713 13 F,  4 W,  70 Y
1813  6 F,  9 W,  63 Y
1913  3 F,  2 W,  10 Y
2013  0 F,  2 W,   2 Y
2113  1 F,  0 W,   4 Y
2213  1 F,  1 W,   9 Y
2313  0 F,  2 W,   5 Y

NB: The above chart has "last-minute" checks on trains between 1600-1800 SB and 1613-1813 NB


----------



## jis

A Brightline double consist move this morning...


----------



## frequentflyer

jis said:


> A Brightline double consist move this morning...


Why?


----------



## jis

Equipment positioning deadhead.


----------



## cpotisch

Is there a reason that Brightline specifically wanted to have two locomotives on each consist? Couldn't they have put one loco on each consist and have some kind of aerodynamic cab car at the other end or something? Just seems like a bit of a waist to have two locomotives totaling 8,000 horsepower on a four car single-level consist. I mean an Empire Service can reach 110 mph with a single 3,200 horsepower engine...


----------



## VentureForth

cpotisch said:


> Is there a reason that Brightline specifically wanted to have two locomotives on each consist? Couldn't they have put one loco on each consist and have some kind of aerodynamic cab car at the other end or something? Just seems like a bit of a waist to have two locomotives totaling 8,000 horsepower on a four car single-level consist. I mean an Empire Service can reach 110 mph with a single 3,200 horsepower engine...


And with no terrain to deal with. I've thought the same. An awful amount of extra weight to carry. Even if the consists are planned to grow... In a decade...


----------



## Pere Flyer

cpotisch said:


> Is there a reason that Brightline specifically wanted to have two locomotives on each consist? Couldn't they have put one loco on each consist and have some kind of aerodynamic cab car at the other end or something? Just seems like a bit of a waist to have two locomotives totaling 8,000 horsepower on a four car single-level consist. I mean an Empire Service can reach 110 mph with a single 3,200 horsepower engine...


I’d imagine it’s for the A E S T H E T I C [emoji6]


----------



## VentureForth

Which is why I prefer equally distributed electrical power to every bogie, ala Shinkansen.


----------



## AGM.12

From www.cato.org/live there was an hour or so long broadcast of a panel discussion on the topic of Randal O'Toole's book Romance of the rails. Why the passenger trains we love are not the transportation we need. In Mr. O'Toole's opening remarks he mentioned some private passenger operations such as the Rocky Mountaineer, White pass and Yukon as well as Brightline. These were cited as examples of passenger operations that could arise if Amtrak circled the drain.


----------



## Anderson

On the consist:
Right now, the trains are four cars. Two locos is probably overkill for that (though it means there's one working if the other dies on you), but the plans are to have trains get up to about 8-9 cars (I don't think there are plans for the trains to be any longer). At that point, I think there's at least some case to be had that better acceleration is to be had with the second loco.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Equipment positioning deadhead.


Could they theoretically run this with passengers?

Some TGV services leave Paris with two sets coupled but then split at some intermediate station and go their separate ways.

Maybe Brightline could do something similar when they are running from Miami to both Jacksonville and Tampa.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Equipment positioning deadhead.
> 
> 
> 
> Could they theoretically run this with passengers?
> 
> Some TGV services leave Paris with two sets coupled but then split at some intermediate station and go their separate ways.
> 
> Maybe Brightline could do something similar when they are running from Miami to both Jacksonville and Tampa.
Click to expand...

Yes. Someday they could.


----------



## cpotisch

Anderson said:


> On the consist:
> 
> Right now, the trains are four cars. Two locos is probably overkill for that (though it means there's one working if the other dies on you), but the plans are to have trains get up to about 8-9 cars (I don't think there are plans for the trains to be any longer). At that point, I think there's at least some case to be had that better acceleration is to be had with the second loco.


So they think that it will make sense in the future to more than double capacity on each train? Why not just run more four car trains?


----------



## VentureForth

Timing is an issue. They still need to get freights through. I long to see the day capacity requires 8 double deckers.

Dallas underestimated the popularity of DART and thus some lines will never accommodate more than 2-car trains.


----------



## jis

They have a long way to go before they hit capacity issues. For the next three to five years it looks like they will stay within two tph each way for passenger. They really have capacity to go to 4 or 6 tph each way without much extra work beyond what is planned.

I don;t see going beyond that outside of Miami Central - West Palm Beach, and perhaps as far as Jupiter with the addition of hourly commuter service for the time being. They don't really have that huge amount of freight traffic either. Maybe six trains or so a day, mostly at night. That could change if miraculously significantly more Panamax traffic decides to come to Miami.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Equipment positioning deadhead.
> 
> 
> 
> Could they theoretically run this with passengers?
> 
> Some TGV services leave Paris with two sets coupled but then split at some intermediate station and go their separate ways.
> 
> Maybe Brightline could do something similar when they are running from Miami to both Jacksonville and Tampa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. Someday they could.
Click to expand...

Practicing.


----------



## daybeers

Doesn't seem like very good news to me: https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-passenger-counts-increase-still-remain-well-below-projections/C2goHqPyH4HZ4OqSoAGATM

Fair use quote:



> ..Total ridership for the first half of the year was 180,870, just 16 percent of the 1.1 million passengers Brightline told investors in December that it expected for the full year of 2018.
> 
> “They are lower than anticipated," said Stacey Mawson, director at Fitch Ratings, the only agency to issue a grade for Brightline’s $600 million bond issue. "But on the bright side, the trends do seem strong.”
> 
> In one caveat, Brightline’s projection of 1.1 million passengers was based on the service launching in late 2017. Brightline started carrying passenger in January, and Brightline didn’t ramp up its full schedule until early August, when its daily service went from 11 round trips to 16 round trips between West Palm Beach and Miami.
> 
> Fare revenue increased to $1.54 million in the second quarter, up from $663,667 in the first quarter. Brightline’s revenue for the first half totaled $2.2 million, just 9 percent of the $23.9 million in revenue it predicted for 2018.
> 
> The private rail service reported a net loss of $28.3 million for the second quarter, compared to a loss of $28.2 million in the first quarter.
> 
> Brightline reports its financial results because it sold bonds worth $600 million to investors in late 2017 to finance its service between West Palm Beach and Miami. Fitch rates the bonds BB-, a junk-bond grade that reflects “an elevated vulnerability to default risk.”….“There’s no compelling reason to believe it’s actually going to work,” said Matt Fabian, a partner at Municipal Market Analytics, a bond research firm in Concord, Mass.
> 
> Brightline seeks to raise an additional $1.15 billion to pay for its expansion to Orlando and possibly Tampa.


----------



## neroden

cpotisch said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the consist:
> 
> Right now, the trains are four cars. Two locos is probably overkill for that (though it means there's one working if the other dies on you), but the plans are to have trains get up to about 8-9 cars (I don't think there are plans for the trains to be any longer). At that point, I think there's at least some case to be had that better acceleration is to be had with the second loco.
> 
> 
> 
> So they think that it will make sense in the future to more than double capacity on each train? Why not just run more four car trains?
Click to expand...

Basics of railroading: economies of scale. It's a *lot* cheaper to run one eight-car train than to run two four-car trains. (I'm actually surprised they aren't planning ahead for sixteen-car trains, but it may have been too hard to squeeze long platforms into their design, particularly at Miami.)


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Timing is an issue. They still need to get freights through. I long to see the day capacity requires 8 double deckers.
> 
> Dallas underestimated the popularity of DART and thus some lines will never accommodate more than 2-car trains.


Never say never; I've seen large sections of light rail lines rebuilt at massive expense less than 10 years after initial construction, simply to lengthen platforms. You can expect Dallas to do so at some point.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Timing is an issue. They still need to get freights through. I long to see the day capacity requires 8 double deckers.
> 
> Dallas underestimated the popularity of DART and thus some lines will never accommodate more than 2-car trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Never say never; I've seen large sections of light rail lines rebuilt at massive expense less than 10 years after initial construction, simply to lengthen platforms. You can expect Dallas to do so at some point.
Click to expand...

Actually, speaking from memory here, the underground sttaions on DART do seem to have long platforms, so were presumably designed with future proofing.

Extending the on surface platforms shouldn't be excessively expensive (a handful of special cases aside - such as the stops on bridges or viaducts).

In this respect one shouldn't forget that everything has an expected or nomibal lifetime. So accountants will depreciate the cost of, say, a platform over 30 years. If you are expecting a longer platform to be justified after say, 25 years, then it makes more sense from an accountancy point of view of making do with the short one iniitially and then going for a longer one when the time comes.

With the oldest parts of DART now well over 20 years old and slowly beginning to feel the squeeze, I don't think its appropriate to say the initial system was under-dimesioned. Rather, it (or vital components thereof) are reaching the end of their designed lifecycle and presenting an opportunity to be rebuilt in a more high capacity form.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Timing is an issue. They still need to get freights through. I long to see the day capacity requires 8 double deckers.
> 
> Dallas underestimated the popularity of DART and thus some lines will never accommodate more than 2-car trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Never say never; I've seen large sections of light rail lines rebuilt at massive expense less than 10 years after initial construction, simply to lengthen platforms. You can expect Dallas to do so at some point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, speaking from memory here, the underground sttaions on DART do seem to have long platforms, so were presumably designed with future proofing.
> 
> Extending the on surface platforms shouldn't be excessively expensive (a handful of special cases aside - such as the stops on bridges or viaducts).
> 
> In this respect one shouldn't forget that everything has an expected or nomibal lifetime. So accountants will depreciate the cost of, say, a platform over 30 years. If you are expecting a longer platform to be justified after say, 25 years, then it makes more sense from an accountancy point of view of making do with the short one iniitially and then going for a longer one when the time comes.
> 
> With the oldest parts of DART now well over 20 years old and slowly beginning to feel the squeeze, I don't think its appropriate to say the initial system was under-dimesioned. Rather, it (or vital components thereof) are reaching the end of their designed lifecycle and presenting an opportunity to be rebuilt in a more high capacity form.
Click to expand...

So, a refresher, the DART consists have changed over the years. Initially, what was called a 2-car train was actually two sets of articulated pairs. Around 15 years ago, they added a shorter accessible section to each, now, articulated trio. So, in a sense, they did increase capacity by adding that section to the consist. Now, a two car train consists of 6 sections.
Here's the interesting part. City Place station, the only underground station in Texas, can, indeed, accommodate a train with 3 articulated trios - a 3-car train. However, the very next station to the North, Mockingbird, can only accommodate a two car train. Mockingbird is a trench-cut station where converging lines come together. Can't expand to the North because of the switches, can't easily expand to the South because of the subway tunnels, though that would be the way to go.

I can't recall how long the status are in The downtown area where platforms are limited by the length of City blocks. But whereas at the trains go through downtown, three of the four lines go through both City Place AND Mockingbird. Sometimes the head way between trains is less than 5 minutes. So, they've certainly made expansion a big challenge.

Brightline certainly had a long way to go before meeting capacity, but they also have a lot of choices as to how they meet future demand.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the consist:
> 
> Right now, the trains are four cars. Two locos is probably overkill for that (though it means there's one working if the other dies on you), but the plans are to have trains get up to about 8-9 cars (I don't think there are plans for the trains to be any longer). At that point, I think there's at least some case to be had that better acceleration is to be had with the second loco.
> 
> 
> 
> So they think that it will make sense in the future to more than double capacity on each train? Why not just run more four car trains?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Basics of railroading: economies of scale. It's a *lot* cheaper to run one eight-car train than to run two four-car trains. (I'm actually surprised they aren't planning ahead for sixteen-car trains, but it may have been too hard to squeeze long platforms into their design, particularly at Miami.)
Click to expand...

But if you run two four car trains instead of one eight car train, you get more departures and times, and no platform constraints. Is it just the fact that you need more people to run two four car trains that makes it more expensive?


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the consist:
> 
> Right now, the trains are four cars. Two locos is probably overkill for that (though it means there's one working if the other dies on you), but the plans are to have trains get up to about 8-9 cars (I don't think there are plans for the trains to be any longer). At that point, I think there's at least some case to be had that better acceleration is to be had with the second loco.
> 
> 
> 
> So they think that it will make sense in the future to more than double capacity on each train? Why not just run more four car trains?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Basics of railroading: economies of scale. It's a *lot* cheaper to run one eight-car train than to run two four-car trains. (I'm actually surprised they aren't planning ahead for sixteen-car trains, but it may have been too hard to squeeze long platforms into their design, particularly at Miami.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But if you run two four car trains instead of one eight car train, you get more departures and times, and no platform constraints. Is it just the fact that you need more people to run two four car trains that makes it more expensive?
Click to expand...

Increased fuel and increased wear on the infrastructure. If you add 4 cars but only fill one of the extra cars, you probably have made more money than that same load on a separate train. Now a lot of this assuming you don't have to add an extra locomotive to the current train.


----------



## Anderson

Brightline built platforms 4 trains that are either 9 or 11 cars long... I forget which. I think there is a fairly strong case that if they are to the point that they can pack a train that long and then some, it makes more sense to run extra trains at peak hours.

Don't forget that Brightline is using more or less fixed consist equipment. So if they are running an 11 car train at rush hour, they are also running an 11 car train at 11 at night.

Bear in mind that running a second train per hour also allows them to run two seperate timetables with different stopping patterns, and or facilitates separate trains running to Jacksonville. On top of all that, at two or three trains per hour at peak hours, you start facilitating extreme convenience in terms of walking up and getting your ticket. That cannot help but help drive ridership.


----------



## jis

It is 11 cars. They plan to run 10 cars initially on the Orlando service.

Bear in mind that the Coastal Commuter Service is still Brightline’s and that will likely cover upto Jupiter at least, if not further, with a separate class of service, possibly subsidized by the trio of Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties with some funding possibly from FDOT.


----------



## cpotisch

Anderson said:


> Bear in mind that running a second train per hour also allows them to run two seperate timetables with different stopping patterns, and or facilitates separate trains running to Jacksonville. On top of all that, at two or three trains per hour at peak hours, you start facilitating extreme convenience in terms of walking up and getting your ticket. That cannot help but help drive ridership.


Thank you! That is exactly what I was trying to say.

So could a single SCB-40 haul a four or five car train at 125 mph?


----------



## Anderson

I'm not familiar with the specs, but I think that's probably the case.

I wasn't familiar with the "ten cars to Orlando" plan, but the plan has changed a few times. I think the earliest plan I heard was to start at seven cars and then go to nine, but ten to eleven cars is totally reasonable.

While I can see some benefit to getting longer trains in the long run, I'm inclined to favour adding trains at that point...

...and yes, I know there's a separate commuter service in play as well. I'm looking forward to see how those interact.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> They have a long way to go before they hit capacity issues. For the next three to five years it looks like they will stay within two tph each way for passenger. They really have capacity to go to 4 or 6 tph each way without much extra work beyond what is planned.
> 
> I don;t see going beyond that outside of Miami Central - West Palm Beach, and perhaps as far as Jupiter with the addition of hourly commuter service for the time being. They don't really have that huge amount of freight traffic either. Maybe six trains or so a day, mostly at night. That could change if miraculously significantly more Panamax traffic decides to come to Miami.


Capacity issues can also be influenced by other constraints.

For example, when a train comnes into Miami, will it be restocked and cleaned there, or taken elsewhere for that and brough back afterwards?

One decision can make platforms your limiting factor, another decison economizes on platform capacity but the extra movements may eat into track capacity. Especially considering that station throats are typically choke points and a major cause of minor delays. You end up having to pay for it one way or the other.

Or will all stocking and cleaning be done from the outer end so that trains come into Miami leave again as soon as possible? That might imply having multiple service points, which may be less economical due to duplicated capacity.

These matters aside, I think that if you start running half hourly services, it really is most economic to have continuous double track so that you can minimize the knock on effects of one train running late on other trains.


----------



## jis

There is no servicing yard in Miami, so trains won’t be taken anywhere.

At WPB trains that are taken out of service goes to the maintenance facility and are replaced by serviced trains. So any restocking/cleaning is done in the station at both ends.

It is continuous double track with triple track at stations.

North of WPB there will be a few short single track sections.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> There is no servicing yard in Miami, so trains won’t be taken anywhere.
> 
> At WPB trains that are taken out of service goes to the maintenance facility and are replaced by serviced trains. So any restocking/cleaning is done in the station at both ends.
> 
> It is continuous double track with triple track at stations.
> 
> North of WPB there will be a few short single track sections.


Thinking this through, depending on where the numbers shake out, it seems quite probable that at least some trains will end up running WPB-MIA-ORL or v-v for operational reasons (at a bare minimum, sending the first train or two out of Miami at a reasonably early hour or not needing to return the last train all the way to Orlando...a hypothetical 0400 departure from ORL couldn't safely make it back until 1100, while a 2000 departure from Orlando wouldn't be able to make it back until something like 0300). Of course, it also seems plausible that one set will just end up parked at Miami overnight so Brightline isn't stuck running multiple "wacky hour" trains (either in revenue service or not).


----------



## jis

Theoretically, they could park upto three trains in MiamiCentral, for the early morning departures and that should be almost sufficient for smooth operations through the day.


----------



## Anderson

Point. Presuming they wanted to start operations at 0600(ish) and were still planning to initiate at least an 0600 train from WPB to Miami (this seems plausible based on early ridership numbers...the 0530 might be solely an "operational" train, but the 0600 has a reasonable amount of business), two trains at MiamiCentral would cover a departure in the 0600 hour and one in the 0700 hour (with the first train in from WPB covering the 0800 slot). My guess is that (equipment problems aside) you don't need a third train in there unless Brightline goes beyond hourly service (e.g. not anytime soon) but the first two cover you on this front.


----------



## cpotisch

So does it seem like Brightline is most used by commuters or leisure travelers, considering it currently terminates in West Palm?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

cpotisch said:


> So does it seem like Brightline is most used by commuters or leisure travelers, considering it currently terminates in West Palm?


Yes to both, I would think, with a mix of business people who live there going to work and people like us out for joy rides.






Florida has that interesting mix of being a vacation state with tourists, where other people actually live and work. I gather their roads are a total nightmare, too, so one of Brightline's best draws is to try to get commuters to get out of their cars, try the train, and never want to get back in the car.


----------



## Anderson

You also seem to have a decent chunk of riders that are "local leisure" riders on weekends (e.g. folks going into Miami for a game). Brightline has been pushing this in their marketing.


----------



## CHamilton

Anderson said:


> You also seem to have a decent chunk of riders that are "local leisure" riders on weekends (e.g. folks going into Miami for a game). Brightline has been pushing this in their marketing.


I saw two couples going to West Palm on Sunday, apparently for a birthday celebration.


----------



## jis

On the Sunday evening train from Miami to West Palm the train was quite full in Smart and relatively empty in Select. The number of people with a weekender bag and the amount of checked bags suggested that a lot of people were returning home for the work week from a weekend out in Miami.

Or maybe some were trying to avoid Miami Airport by escaping to West Palm Beach Airport.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Onward to Tampa!  Brightline submits the sole proposal to lease the ROWs required to get to Tampa. Decision 3 weeks from today. FDOT press release from late today:


[SIZE=12pt]November 7, 2018[/SIZE]



Ed Seifert, 850-414-459

[email protected]


 

*Florida Department of Transportation receives proposal to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa*

*TALLAHASSEE, FL – *The Florida Department of Transportation announced today that it has received a single proposal from Brightline in response to the Department’s advertisement for Request for Proposals (RFP).  The RFP for the leasing of rights of way owned by the Department and Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX) to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa was formally advertised on June 22, 2018.

Per section 1.67 of the RFP, the Department and CFX have appointed an evaluation committee to review proposal(s) and make recommendations to the Project Selection Committee. The evaluation committee (otherwise known as the Technical Review Committee) includes: the Department’s Freight and Rail Planning Administrator (Holly Cohen); the Department’s Director of Right of Way (Jim Spalla); and the Central Florida Expressway Authority, Director of Engineering, (Glenn Pressimone).

The proposal(s) will be reviewed by the Technical Review Committee to ensure the submission meets the requirements outlined in the RFP.  Information on proposal evaluation can be found in section 1.14 of the RFP.

Per Section 1.14 of the RFP, the proposal(s) and the Technical Review Committee evaluations will be provided to the Selection Committee. The Selection Committee consists of: the Department’s Assistant Secretary for Engineering and Operations (Brian Blanchard); the Department’s Turnpike Executive Director (Paul Wai); and the Central Florida Expressway Authority Director (Laura Kelley). The Selection Committee will meet on November 28, 2018, at 3:00 p.m. EST.

CFX and the Department’s decision will be posted on the Department’s Procurement website, at http://fdot.gov/procurement/passengerrail.shtm on November 28, 2018 by 4:00 p.m. EST.

[SIZE=12pt]www.fdot.gov[/SIZE]


----------



## the_traveler

Anyone having trouble booking for 2019?' :huh:

I’m trying to see schedules and book for January but after 12/31 (all month) says “*SOLD OUT*”!


----------



## jis

Here is an article on the Tampa extension proposal. It contains a list of locations being considered in Tampa for the Birghtline station there...

https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/Brightline-submits-sole-proposal-to-launch-Tampa-to-Orlando-passenger-rail-service_173370126?fbclid=IwAR2eT5wRXSgIO4Ysjeys1QMX1Dcnv_uYdMk6IaQVl5uFfMPmuZNqTHvZdhw


----------



## jis

the_traveler said:


> Anyone having trouble booking for 2019?' :huh:
> 
> I’m trying to see schedules and book for January but after 12/31 (all month) says “*SOLD OUT*”!


Have you considered using the chat feature on their website to pose the question to them?


----------



## the_traveler

That would be too easy! :giggle:


----------



## the_traveler

FYI - There is no “Chat”. A chat window opens, but after you type your question, it says to email CS and they will respond within 24 hours!

So why even have a chat window?


----------



## jis

Yeah, it is a bit weird. I have had someone chatting with me on that window at times, and at other times it forwards to the "send email" bot.

While you are at it, do include a complaint about the email thing in the email message too.


----------



## the_traveler

They did respond, and said reservations are not yet open past 12/31 - and try again “in a few weeks”! :blink:

I guess the trains will be very empty on 1/1/2019!


----------



## jis

the_traveler said:


> They did respond, and said reservations are not yet open past 12/31 - and try again “in a few weeks”! :blink:
> 
> I guess the trains will be very empty on 1/1/2019!


Frankly, I don't think they have a huge number of reservations this far out anyway. Typically they start filling up two weeks before departure. The fare does not change all that much either.


----------



## jis

Article on Brightline Phase II in the Trains Magazine:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/10/20-brightline-update?fbclid=IwAR3zIEsRoDNTB-qmESArjy9TDNQBkzo7M1FrfIjJwkKtBtkwB2jp2Zucl7M


----------



## PerRock

Apparently Richard Branson is dipping his hand into the US rail market. Brightline has partnered with Virgin Group, and will be rebranded as "Virgin Rail USA"

https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2018/11/16/brightline-partners-with-virgin-group-as-it-plans.html

peter


----------



## Pere Flyer

PerRock said:


> Apparently Richard Branson is dipping his hand into the US rail market. Brightline has partnered with Virgin Group, and will be rebranded as "Virgin Rail USA"
> https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2018/11/16/brightline-partners-with-virgin-group-as-it-plans.html
> peter


[emoji47] That was a sincerely unexpected move.


----------



## PRR 60

Here's an article not behind a paywall:

SunSentinal


----------



## cpotisch

PerRock said:


> Apparently Richard Branson is dipping his hand into the US rail market. Brightline has partnered with Virgin Group, and will be rebranded as "Virgin Rail USA"
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2018/11/16/brightline-partners-with-virgin-group-as-it-plans.html
> 
> peter


What the hell?! That really came out of nowhere. :huh:

And for the record, I quite like the name "Brightline" as well as its color scheme, so I'm a bit sad that it's probably about to be replaced with something like this:


----------



## Anderson

On the one hand, I'm sorry to see the Brightline branding vanish.

On the other hand, based on everything else I've seen attached to the Virgin brand, the two are a good match.  In the scheme of things, this is _probably_ going to involve some sort of tie-up with Virgin Atlantic, too, btw (if only through a shared loyalty program).  SRB is also still smarting from the Virgin America acquisition and he _did_ say he wanted back into the US market.


----------



## leemell

It is probably good news for the XW line too.  New money.


----------



## AGM.12

I had thought, or hoped, that the NEC operations would be rebranded Virgin USA.


----------



## chrsjrcj

It appears an IPO is forthcoming. Time for some to put their money where their mouth is! 

https://www.ft.com/content/dcc94a18-e9aa-11e8-a34c-663b3f553b35?fbclid=IwAR2vPfm7WbA2_iSIQR3d_f7ndr6eyCzXsR1GjZX9b8wMuwsQkB0hW2ic8do

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1737516/000114036118043289/s002218x4_s1.htm?fbclid=IwAR1SaO7KKHBXG9EGw9OdiBTKjKvYoQgwlQL2qF9TYjo5DmPxiao7VQNq5sg#tDP


----------



## Anderson

My guess is that this is tied up with the Tampa situation and/or Southern California.  Orlando-Tampa really does create a much stronger operational profile for the Florida operation (since that adds several market subsets to the picture).

Also, checking that map in the SEC filing?  I had a feeling they were going to try and steal the Surfliner as soon as the Vegas stuff got up and rolling.  Looks like they're _really_ going hard on this (though in their shoes, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on the NEC...even if I could lever operational control away from Amtrak, the SOGR shortfall there is enough to make me run very fast in the other direction).

Edit: I've packed an analysis into the other thread.  Bottom line is that the numbers are rather a mixed bag as-is.


----------



## VentureForth

Wow. All I can say is that they can sure keep a secret!


----------



## leemell

Here is an article with a Las Vegas perspective on the Virgin/Brighine: https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/richard-branson-virgin-to-partner-with-brightline-high-speed-rail-1528571/


----------



## jis

Draft of SEC filing from Virgin Trains (USA)

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1737516/000114036118043289/s002218x4_s1.htm


----------



## Brian_tampa

October ridership at 60,000. Revenue for the month at $1M

View attachment ES1215520-ES949214-ES1350042.pdf


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson? Seems to exceed even your estimates. This is good news. 

As for Virgin, 8 think the line will be Virgin Trains USA's Brightline. I don't expect to see everything going into the paint shop for a major redo.


----------



## Anderson

Technically, it didn't exceed them since my estimates were for September;-)

Looking at the numbers for Q3, this suggests another 30-50% growth quarter-over-quarter.  I have little doubt that October beat September in terms of ridership by a good bit.  One thing to note is that Brightline added additional weekend trains in October, which can't help but have helped.  I'll slap some additional notes down elsewhere, but it looks like PPR is pretty steady while ridership is moving upwards solidly.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The SEC filing says they expect the average fare between Miami and West Palm to be $50 per passenger. That's double what they charge now.    At least Miami to Orlando for $100 sounds somewhat more reasonable.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> On the one hand, I'm sorry to see the Brightline branding vanish.
> 
> On the other hand, based on everything else I've seen attached to the Virgin brand, the two are a good match.  In the scheme of things, this is _probably_ going to involve some sort of tie-up with Virgin Atlantic, too, btw (if only through a shared loyalty program).  SRB is also still smarting from the Virgin America acquisition and he _did_ say he wanted back into the US market.


Virgin's rail operations in the UK were not exactly a success and probably damaged the Virgin brand more than it leveraged it.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Virgin's rail operations in the UK were not exactly a success and probably damaged the Virgin brand more than it leveraged it.


The West Coast franchise has arguably been a success (they've had it for 21 years).  CrossCountry also didn't seem to have many issues other than the ill-fated frequency increase, while the East Coast situation has been a running problem for the last few decades and every operator has run into problems with it (not to mention that the nature of the franchise system there is a bit problematic).


----------



## jis

East Coast was also mostly First Group with Virgin holding a 10% interest. Management was entirely from the First Group side and the financial hit was also on the First Group side of things. Also there really was no complaint about the quality of service, which is what the Virgin brand was primarily associated with.

I think on the whole Virgin Trains has a positive impression in balance. The only thing that they control almost fully has done well.


----------



## AGM.12

Once Brightline is built out and proves itself successfully, I can see that Virgin will buy the rest of it and run it as Virgin. The same with Vegas to LA and any where else this model will apply.


----------



## cpotisch

The main quip I have with Virgin Trains is their absolutely hideous color scheme. :unsure:

Jishnu, you enjoyed your ride, right?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> The main quip I have with Virgin Trains is their absolutely hideous color scheme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jishnu, you enjoyed your ride, right?


Yes. Glasgow Central to London Euston stopping at Carlisle, Oxenholme Lake District, Preston, Lancaster, Wigan and Warrington Bank Quay.


----------



## Anderson

There's a good chance that Virgin will stay a minority shareholder...I doubt that SRB wants a repeat of the fight over Virgin America.  In his shoes, I'd instead try to do a deal for senior debt instead of equity and let someone else carry the equity risks.


----------



## jis

I agree. I don’t see Virgin ever acquiring the whole thing. At least not as long as Branson is the boss. Picking up unnecessary financial risk is not his style


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## Brian_tampa

the proposal is out now. Lots of interesting stuff. High points: Meadow Woods Sunrail station will get a transfer platform so that Brightline riders can take Sunrail to access much more of Orlando. Also, Sunrail riders can get to the airport (or Tampa or Miami for that matter) without taking a bus. Brightline will need expanded hours of service between Meadow Woods and MCO. No station site in Tampa shown, as expected.

One interesting operational characteristic. In Lakeland there is a hill on I-4 just west of US98 that I calculated from topo maps to be about a 4% grade of around 1500ft. With most trains not stopping at the Lakeland station, it will be fun to watch eastbound Brightline trains tackle this grade going 100mph. This will definitely put to use the 8000 hp that the two Chargers supply!

View attachment Brightline Trains FDOT Proposal Tampa to Orlando FINAL 11-5-18.pdf


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## jis

Well, looks like what I had heard and reported previously about the use of the SR417 alignment turns out to be more or less true afterall.

The Meadow Woods interchange station with Sunrail is a nice touch. I wonder how difficult it would be to simply build the other leg of the Wye and have Sunrail run half hourly service to the airport as planned for Phase III, and pay user fees to Virgin Trains. I am sure this will be revisited when the time comes, and Virgin Train's decision to route via the CFRC and OUC ROW is no accident.

I wonder where Branson thinks the Disney World Station, which he offhandedly talked about, will go. This might indicate a preference for the Blue or Green alignment along Osceola Parkway with a station at or near the intersection of Osceola Parkway and I-4. For now, the document only mentions a station at the SR417/I-4 intersection, which is a bit of a distance from the main area of Disney activity.


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## Brian_tampa

Moved to Brightline  ridership thread.


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## VentureForth

Looks like they are rethinking airport access. Pay wall.  Anyone have access?

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/11/30/brightline-proposal-potentially-changes-need-for.html

Now what?


----------



## jis

Cross platform connection from SunRail some sort of Brightline connecting train for starter. Not clear whether there will be special shuttles. Eventually the Brightline trackage could be used by Sunrail if a deal can be struck, to get to the airport. Sort of like Tr-Rail is getting to the MiamiCentral Station.


----------



## Palmland

We will be going to Florida in March for some spring training baseball. Rather than drive, I’m considering taking the Star south (and Meteor return) to West Palm or beyond. Can someone tell me if there is a hotel near a Brightline station? Prefer a Marriott or Hyatt brand. We’d then take the Meteor back to Orlando to pick up a rental car for the games.


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## VentureForth

There is a Marriott Residence Inn ("West Palm Beach Downtown/CityPlace Area") which is literally 3 blocks and a 6 minute from the station at: 455 Hibiscus Street

https://goo.gl/maps/MeNsgwEezE92

















A little further away, but about $100/night less is a Hyatt Place at: 295 Lakeview Avenue
 
https://goo.gl/maps/nozSEFz9P1Q2


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> With the parameters that Matt is using, and I will add that if I was doing the computation I'd start with something similar too, one must keep in mind that he is already over-estimating the speed and under-estimating the running times. This is so because no train is actually going to run every bit of WPB to Cocoa at 110mph. There are moving bridges with Miter Rails to contend with (70mph), numerous grade crossings and curves around Melbourne and other RoW geometry matters to contend with etc. You can get some idea of the track geometry issues by paging through the detailed EIS for the FEC service. So I suspect the actual avg will be at least a good 5mph below what the rough calculation suggests.


This.

And moreover typical driving technique for high speed trains involves accelerating up to highest speed and then allowing train to coast until speed drops by about 10kmph to 15kmph and then accelerating upward again. You can observe this for example on German trains that have speed displays in the passenger cars. You're much more efficient on fuel / electricity that way. It also creates some slack so that if you really need to make up for lost time you can stay on the throttle and to hell with what it costs. I've observed this a couple of times on the Frankfurt to Cologne run and you can easily recover 5 minutes.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I agree. I don’t see Virgin ever acquiring the whole thing. At least not as long as Branson is the boss. Picking up unnecessary financial risk is not his style


Absolutely. Virgin's whole modus operandi is to leverage other people's capital but bring in their own brand and style of management. 

I don't think they're really interested in owning anything outright, just in running it.


----------



## cirdan

cpotisch said:


> The main quip I have with Virgin Trains is their absolutely hideous color scheme. :unsure:
> 
> Jishnu, you enjoyed your ride, right?


My main quibble with Virgin's trains, such as the Vovager, is that the interior design reminds me of IKEA emulating a retro-soviet theme, the bathrooms seem to be broken quite a lot, and you can't see out of the windows very well.

I always go 1st class if I can afford it because the 2nd class is just so awful.

But then I don't know if it was Virgin that specced those trans or they just got to operate what was handed over to them.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Cross platform connection from SunRail some sort of Brightline connecting train for starter. Not clear whether there will be special shuttles. Eventually the Brightline trackage could be used by Sunrail if a deal can be struck, to get to the airport. Sort of like Tr-Rail is getting to the MiamiCentral Station.


That is, if the question of platform heights can be resolved. 

It might be easier if Sunrail just had its own platforms at Orlando airport. Whether or not the approach tracks are shared or run parallel will have to be defined by questions of priority and expected additional congestion caused by junctions, versus costs saved.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Absolutely. Virgin's whole modus operandi is to leverage other people's capital but bring in their own brand and style of management.
> 
> I don't think they're really interested in owning anything outright, just in running it.


Branson will not get to run Brightline though. That is not how the deal is set up. Brightline will be allowed to use the Virgin brand for 40 years on license provided they meet certain service criteria, which they currently surpass by a mile. The management team remains exactly the same and the control of the Board remains with Fortress. A holding subsidiary of Branson's enterprises with an unheard of name (i.e. not Virgin anything) will have an equity in Brightline of upto 10% with no control over any management or investment decisions.

Incidentally, in my experience, having ridden both Brightline and Virgin Trains UK recently, Brightline's service surpasses those of Virgin Trains UK. Indeed Virgin Trains UK could learn a  few things from Brightline.

Incidentally trains interiors and even the choice of those specific train types involved Virgin Trains quite a bit. They weer not handed anything that they did not spec.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> That is, if the question of platform heights can be resolved.
> 
> It might be easier if Sunrail just had its own platforms at Orlando airport. Whether or not the approach tracks are shared or run parallel will have to be defined by questions of priority and expected additional congestion caused by junctions, versus costs saved.


There is nothing to resolve about platform heights. Brightline and Commuter trains use different platform faces, potentially even of the same platform, with tracks at different levels to account for different train floor heights from TOR. An example can bee seen at Denver Union Station of a platform that is shared between Amtrak and RTD A Line.


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## AGM.12

Maybe the whole idea behind acquiring a stake in Brightline is so that Virgin can be influenced by Brightline and not the other way around.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> There is nothing to resolve about platform heights. Brightline and Commuter trains use different platform faces, potentially even of the same platform, with tracks at different levels to account for different train floor heights from TOR. An example can bee seen at Denver Union Station of a platform that is shared between Amtrak and RTD A Line.




absolutely, but that would have to be part of the design from day one. Trying to shoehorn that in afterwards can be quite disruptive and costly.

I don't interpret the present plans for Orlando as featuring different platform heights on the same platform.


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## jis

What do you suppose the plan would be then when trains of two different floor heights are known to require using a station that is yet to be built. Obviously the SunRail trains cannot use the Brightline platforms which are already built, and obviously the future SunRail part of the station if there ever is one, is yet to be designed and built. Have you seen a plan fro SunRail station at OIA other than in conceptual track diagrams? If so where?

As an aside how do you suppose both Brightline and Tri-Rail serve MiamiCentral station?


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> As an aside how do you suppose both Brightline and Tri-Rail serve MiamiCentral station?


Separate platforms?

Separate tracks?

Separate waiting and check-in area and separate passenger flow plans?

In fact you could almost call that two operationally separate stations that just happen to be located side by side, and just happen to connect to the same line and thus  need common dispatching.

And all that was planned as such from day one.

At least that's my understanding of what I've seen, although I'm happy to be corrected.


----------



## jis

They will be operationally separate stations - Brightline 3 platform tracks, Tri-Rail two platform tracks, completely segregated at platform level. No one has disputed that, at least not intentionally as far as I know. They do have common concourse area outside the ticket gates.

But to get back to the original point about platform heights, in each part of the station the platform height from TOR will be appropriate for the rolling stock using that part.


----------



## jis

Construction of new tracks to begin in 1CQ 2019...

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/12/19/brightlines-orlando-to-west-palm-construction.html


----------



## neroden

Two or three years of construction.  Why do these projects take so long?  I mean, I understand some of the reasons, but time is money here...

They're talking up the Meadow Woods connection, but that won't get built until the Tampa extension is approved and a station design passes through an EIS and so on and so forth...


----------



## Anderson

In this case, I think you have at least some bridges, etc. that need engineering work done.  Ideally it would be a bit quicker for obvious reasons, but given that this is a fresh ROW it doesn't seem horridly unreasonable...and if nothing else, we can hope that this isn't an over-promised timetable.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> In this case, I think you have at least some bridges, etc. that need engineering work done.  Ideally it would be a bit quicker for obvious reasons, but given that this is a fresh ROW it doesn't seem horridly unreasonable...and if nothing else, we can hope that this isn't an over-promised timetable.


Two significant river crossings(St. Johns and Econlockhatchee Rivers) and one significant causeway across wetlands (St. Johns River Swampland) plus several flyovers and duck unders at various cross roads. Also built in general on mush half of the way even where it is not on viaducts. It takes the foundation formation to settle down and stabilize.

Someone posted a photo of stacks of concrete ties that have been warehoused near the branching point at Cocoa for use on the new track, both along SR 528 and the new (restored) second track along FECR I suppose.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Found a document online today that spells out the amount of money Virgin is investing in Brightline: $30-50 million. If this reflects the 3% figure that was reported previously, then Brightline appears to be valued at anywhere from $1-1.7Billion. I am surprised that Brightline is giving up their brand and allowing 1 of the 4 board of directors for the new company to be picked by Virgin for such a small amount of cash. Of course, Sir Branson is using what appears to be a shell company (Corvina Holdings) located in the British Virgin Islands to escape paying proper taxes. I understand he is known for this sort of stuff in the UK, so it's not unexpected.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1737516/000114036118045655/s002218x8_ex10-73.htm

View attachment SEC_Document.docx


----------



## Bob Dylan

MAGA using "Dark Money"! <_< :help:


----------



## Brian_tampa

More news about airlines (probably mostly international) interested in adding flights into MCO because of Brightline having a station at the airport. I know many people disagreed with the decision to have the main Orlando station at the airport. With this news, it might end up being a very good choice in the end. Especially if they have a station adjacent to Sunrail at the Meadow Woods station to allow more connections for local passengers.

Here is the relevant portion of the Orlando Business Journal article linked below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/12/24/how-orlando-international-airport-expects-to-tap.html

_And it's Brightline that's been one of the X-factors the airport has been tapping into to keep conversations energized with potential future new destinations and carriers, said airport executives._

_"Airlines are looking for the connectivity and where they can get more from a market. That's why airlines see Brightline and consider bringing more planes into Orlando," Vicki Jaramillo, senior director of marketing and air service development at the airport, told Orlando Business Journal._

_"There's great interest in Brightline for Orlando. It would help in getting someone who flies in from Saudi Arabia to Palm Beach simpler. So we continue to push that because it's what the airlines want to do in the future," she added._


----------



## jis

And Orlando International is already the largest airport in Florida now having beaten Miami International last year. And this is even before the first phase of Terminal C is built. OTOH Miami International has nowhere to expand. 

The decision to build a station at Orlando International is the right one given the clientele they are after. Before you know it, Brightline WPB, Fort Lauderdale and MiamiCentral will get their own IATA codes. [emoji57]


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## Anderson

Oh, I assumed that would happen.  I've mentioned to a friend that I would be _shocked_ if several airlines (particularly JetBlue) weren't looking at codeshare possibilities, particularly if they could get a station at FLL since it would give them room to "add" Palm Beach and Miami without having to add flights into those destinations (particularly MIA, which IIRC has been "crowded" for about half a century).


----------



## me_little_me

I've always been a believer in eliminating short-hop flights as they take up half the landing and gate slots at major airports and contribute to major delays. All major airports (ATL, Charlotte, are you listening?) should have rail service to nearby cities with 100mph rail.


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## chrsjrcj

There were a couple flights between this year and next that I booked where I seriously considered using MCO (because it was a nonstop flight, or not a redeye) but ultimately stuck with PBI, mainly because I didn't want to have to do the 2.5 hour drive plus pay for parking. Brightline will definitely be beneficial in this regard, especially when it comes to transcontinental and international flights (JetBlue and Amtrak do a fine job moving me up and down the Eastern seaboard).


----------



## VentureForth

Just tossed Indian River lawsuit:

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/growth/2018/12/25/indian-river-lawsuit-dismissed/2411193002/


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Just tossed Indian River lawsuit: https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/growth/2018/12/25/indian-river-lawsuit-dismissed/2411193002/


 The other related thing that happened this week is that Elaine Chou ignored a fervent appeal from Reps. Mast ® and Posey ® to deny extension of the deadline for selling Private Activity Bonds, and approved an extension to June 2019.As long as people like Senator Scott (R-Florida) have a personal financial interest in the Brightline project, these lesser retrogressive Republicans on the shore have no hope of succeeding.

At one point Rubio was occasionally making anti-Brightline noises, but of late he has thankfully gone eerily silent. Maybe FECI sold his "blind" trust a chunk of indirect interest in Brightline related real estate. Juuust kidding. But then again, that is how things are mostly done in Florida, since the hoary days of Flagler. Back then there were FEC instigated Grifters who went about selling swampland by the Gallon instead of Acre as some joked. [emoji37]

Afterall, Martin County got approval to form a separate county from Governor Martin by promising him that the County will be called Martin County. [emoji1]


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## Thirdrail7

It would be nice to see a through ticketing agreement between the airlines and Brightline.


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## Brian_tampa

Q3 results out this afternoon. 159k riders and $2.9M revenue. Not much unexpected news with this.

View attachment ES1224794-ES956449-ES1357440.pdf


----------



## Anderson

No real surprises in there.  EBITDA ("Everything Before I Tricked the Dumb Auditor") losses are sitting around $14m/quarter at this point, putting direct cost recovery somewhere around 17.5%.  This is actually an improvement (last quarter was around 10%).  The operating losses _are_ closing...just not as quickly as is needed (the loss in Q3 is $2.4m less than in Q2).

Direct ticket revenue is averaging $14.39/passenger for the quarter (total revenue averages $18.36/passenger).  Of note, this means that neither interpretation over in the other thread (when trying to tease out revenue numbers) was correct.  Table time!



Code:


      Ridership    Ticket Revenue    PPR    Ancillary Revenue
18Q1     74,780   $  664,000    $ 8.80    $  104,000 ($1.39)
18Q2    106,090   $1,143,000    $10.77    $  392,000 ($3.69)
18Q3    159,586   $2,296,000    $14.39    $  634,000 ($3.97)
===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
18Q4-A  200,000   $3,000,000    $15.00    $  800,000 ($4.00)
18Q4-B  220,000   $3,630,000    $16.50    $  880,000 ($4.00)
18Q4-C  220,000   $3,960,000    $18.00    $  880,000 ($4.00)
18Q4-D  220,000   $4,290,000    $19.50    $  880,000 ($4.00)
18Q4-E  240,000   $4,320,000    $18.00    $  960,000 ($4.00)
18Q4-F  240,000   $4,800,000    $20.00    $  960,000 ($4.00)


Projection A presumes that December "returns to form" and that November was a deviation with its ridership growth.  It also makes a low estimate on PPR (barely above Q3).

Projection B presumes that December follows in the footsteps of November and presumes an additional 10% increase in PPR.  C and D use additional bumps in PPR of 20% and 30%.

Projections E and F presume that ridership in December grows again.  They also post PPR growth (20% and about 35%, respectively).

My personal guess is D.  Christmas is going to play hell with the timetables but the Polar Express trains are going to help offset that with a solid slug of "premium" revenue.  I'm hard-pressed to see them adding another 20k pax month-over-month in that context.



Code:


Actual Ticket Revenue vs Estimates
      Actual   Est.   %
Q1    $0.66m  $5.98m  11.05%
Q2    $1.14m  $5.98m  19.06%
Q3    $2.29m  $5.98m  38.29%
Q4-Low$3.00m  $5.98m  50.17%
Q4-Hi $4.80m  $5.98m  80.27%

(The tables and analysis are going in the other thread as well)


----------



## jis

How do we know how quickly the operating losses need to close? Have we seen any trustworthy statement about their planned flight path on that?


----------



## Brian_tampa

IIRC, AAF/Brightline documents from several years ago referred to a 3 year ramp up once Orlando was operational before they would be profitable. But because their plans have been scrambled due to delays, it appears that would place the final date to meet their revenue goals somewhere around 2024-25 assuming Orlando opens in 2021-22. Until Orlando is open, the currently reported numbers really are not meaningful when comparing to what is needed to be profitable. Running MIA to WPB was never expected to make a profit while they are building out, based on what I recall reading. There are several years of anticipated high losses built into their business plan.

I will try to locate the appropriate document that states this. It may have been restated in the recent IPO filing document as well, but I am sure it was part of the PAB documents that I obtained from the FDFC back in 2015. I also have documents from FDOT for both the Beachline lease and the recent I4 proposal that cover their financial plans.


----------



## jis

That is consistent with my recollection. That would imply that it is almost impossible to decide whether they are on track or not at this point in time. That was my obliquely expressed point.


----------



## Brian_tampa

See page 7 of the attached SEC document for the IPO from last month. It mentions a 2 year ramp up time before they meet their expected revenue targets after build out. Late 2023 or early 2024. The pdf can be word searched to make it easier.

View attachment virgin trains usa sec-1 form 111618-1.pdf


----------



## Anderson

The percentage data I was expressing, for the record, is as a share of projected 2018 revenue (divided over the four quarters).  There's a case to be made that they're simply pacing 6-9 months behind their projected trend.

The biggest issue, from what I can tell, is their "burn rate" (i.e. how fast they're running through cash versus the existing cash stockpile).  That's the biggest worry insofar as this goes is more the accumulated losses in the interim and the risk that all of this outpaces their budgeted amounts by a significant amount.

I think the second question/worry is whether or not they're going to be able to meet longer-term revenue projections within the southern portion of their system.  Right now they're sitting around 48,000 seats/week [1] of which they seem to be selling somewhere approaching (potentially passing) 20,000.  I know one big question is how much they can push revenue up, but either they're gonna need longer trains in service before they get to Orlando or they're going to ram into capacity issues if they can keep their ridership growing (especially since, as we all know, ridership isn't anywhere near 100% fungible).  I'm not prepared to expect that ridership will keep rising on the recent trendline, but I think quarter-over-quarter growth of somewhere in the range of 10% for the next year would be a reasonable "lowball" trendline to hope for.  I just can't see them not getting into a bottleneck pre-Orlando with "only" four-car trains (especially if they want to grow a reliable business/commuter base).

Interestingly, the Eurostar and Italo settled at about double their year three ridership.  The Acela fell short...but that has been very clearly a function of some combination of nosebleed pricing and hard capacity limits (Amtrak having clearly acknowledged the latter for over a decade).  Of course, Brightline is also complicated by the fact that while the Acela was basically Metroliner Take Two, Italo was also in a mature market, and the Eurostar was bookended with massive railway networks, there's almost nothing in Florida that's comparable (though at the rate things are going that is slowly changing).


[1] 240 seats/train (I know this is a little high) times 32 trains per weekday (7680 seats/weekday).  240 seats times 20 trains per weekend day (4800 trains per weekend day).  Five weekdays (38,400 seats) and two weekends (9,600 seats) gives 48,000 seats.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I found the 2017 PAB document, although I'm having problems uploading it here. A screenshot will have to suffice. Page 71 of the pdf file shows expected yearly fare revenue and ridership numbers based on full Miami to WPB service strating in Q1 of 2018. $32.6M revenue and 1.13M riders for 2018. Due to full service not starting until August, these will have to be prorated somehow. Not sure how to prorate this as they had a very different startup ramp than the ridership study assumed. Since the document only shows full year numbers, it would be very hard to interpolate that for the actual Q3 and Q4 numbers after full service started. Maybe one could assume Q1 2019 would be at 50% of the average for the estimated 2018 totals? This would be $16M annual revenue rate with 550k annual ridership rate. Individual predicted quarterly numbers seem to be impossible to determine since the actual numbers are increasing non-linearly during the ramp up period and we only have one reference number for the first 12 months of operation to compare with.


----------



## Anderson

My first thought on seeing the chart above?  "Well, that dog ain't gonna hunt..."

The chart indicates ridership that we're actually "on pace" for at this stage.  Yes, I realize that 80,000/month doesn't equal just shy of 1.2m...but ridership is still likely surging along and if we get over 100k/month we're there.  Ridership for the first 12 months of full operation might well reach those totals.

Revenue is a problem.  PPR for 2018 was pegged at $28.75.  Getting to $20 for Q4 relies on an aggressive set of assumptions, and getting to $28 requires nearly another 45% bump in PPR on top of that.  On the other hand, ancillary revenue is simply shot to hell compared to the numbers we've got (they're looking at $21.08/pax in 2018, falling off to $13.13/pax in 2019) and I have *no* idea what assumptions are at play there.  I'm guessing that there's some mix of rental income and Tri-Rail access fees.

The bigger problem is the ridership counts.  48,000 seats per week times 52 weeks gives 2,496,000 seats.  I realize there's room for some turnover (and a little bit of "fudge room" in my calculations), but the 2019 ridership projections (2.31m) would essentially fill every seat on every train.  2020 is substantially clear of that (2.94m), let alone allowing for a reasonable limit on load factors.  Given that ridership isn't totally fungible, that's a structural issue, and my understanding is that additional cars aren't in the pipeline until Orlando.

Of course, add two cars of Smart seating (as opposed to two Smart cars, which wouldn't be anywhere near enough;-)) to each train and you've probably got enough.  Presuming replicas of Car 3 (64 Smart seats, 2 wheelchair spaces), that does get them to a decent place (3,848,000 seats/slots on the same frequency presumptions above)...though I think that definitely requires going to nine-car sets (and/or seriously looking at extra peak-hour trains) for the Orlando extension.

Of course, I'm also looking at the numbers and wondering where the various cost/demand points are (especially if something like the proposed commuter service gets into the mix versus not getting in there).

Something interesting (and indeed I may be data-snooping to have seen this), but does anybody else notice the way the fuel costs "stair-step" in 2021, 2023, and 2025?  It's quite plausibly a modeling artifact, but I could just as easily see that being "we expect the trains to be lengthened in these years".  Notably, nothing else seems to "step" in the same way (though equipment maintenance has a *very* strange behavior...it basically goes flat for 2021-22 and then *drops* for 2023-24, only to pop back up in 2025.  The only explanation I can see is some sort of cost-sharing being anticipated with the Orlando extension (Tampa had no visible timetable until recently).  The other lines mostly track, but those two behave very oddly.


----------



## Brian_tampa

If Q3 fare revenue was $2.3M for the first quarter (actually less than 2/3 of a quarter) of full operation, then could one reasonably expect the second quarter of full operation to be somewhere north of $3-3.5M at the current rate of increase? That would be 75+% of the expected fare revenue after 6 months of full operation. And if we assume further non-linear growth in revenue, by the fourth quarter of full operation it should obtain similar percentages, i.e. about $6M (75% of the $8M expected revenue per quarter) fare revenue in the 4th quarter of full operation for April-June 2019. The question is whether this rate of growth is sustainable in order to reach their target after 3 years at $27M per quarter? I do understand there is an inflation factor of 2.8% in these predicted revenue numbers, so 3 years out does skew the numbers higher than what we see for actual 2016 dollar amounts, per the document. See attached screenshot for the notes related to the table I sent previously.


----------



## Anderson

Well, for Q4 we have reasonably hard numbers of $1.0m for October and $1.5m for November.  So December coming in around $1.5m (in line with November) would put Brightline at $4.0m.


----------



## VentureForth

Back in the beginning when everything was under one FEC umbrella, was the internet for Brightline to be completely self sustaining or a loss leader to the real estate and business improvements?

Obviously they would want the railroad to make money, but it would have been conceivable that so long as the direct operating costs were covered by direct revenue, the infrastructure costs could be borne by the economic activity in and around the stations.

This would have been consistently with how JR and many 2nd tier Japanese railroads operate around Tokyo, but the FECI FECR split would have derailed that theory.


----------



## jis

The real estate holdings along the ROW are managed by business units that are part of Brightline. The SEC filing shows that in a neat little diagram buried in there somewhere. Brightline is a Passenger Rail and Real Estate company.

Of course FECI does own vast amounts of other real estate that has nothing to do with Brightline too.

And all this has not much to do with "when it was under a single FEC umbrella". When they separated FECR from FECI they divvied up the real estate such that most of the real estate holdings along the RoW, except for the FECR RoW itself fell on the FECI side, and quite a bit of it was then transferred to AAF. So no, the FECI FECR split did not quite derail the theory. Actually it follows the theory very closely. FER is a rail infrastructure maintenance and train operating company. FDC (Florida Dispatching Company) is the train operations management company, and Brightline is the passenger rail operations and associated real estate company.

FECR is now owned by Grupo Mexico, FDC is equally owned by FECR and Brightline, and Brightline is owned by FECI, which is owned by Fortress, which is owned by SoftBank. So at the end of the day, it is a Japanese thing.


----------



## VentureForth

Another pedestrian self-killed: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-ne-brightline-accident-20190101-story.html

Likely a suicide.  Note: Certainly not caused by a quiet zone.  hboy:


----------



## chrsjrcj

Brightline added a couple additional trains today.

SB Departures now on the half hour, with an additional 6 am and 7 am southbound trip.                                                                                                                             

NB Departures are now 40 minutes past the hour (I think it was 13 minutes past before), with an additional 5:10 pm northbound trip.                                             

Weekend schedules also added a 3rd trainset (possible now that the Polar Express is no longer running). This allows for some hourly service, mixed between mostly every other hour service. 

Still missing is the 12:30 pm SB trip (previously 1:00 pm) that turns to the 2:40 pm NB trip (previously 3:13 pm). I have seen Brightline trains deadhead to the yard around lunchtime, so I imagine there is an operational reason for this.


----------



## Anderson

I poked at the schedules.  What you effectively have is the effective addition of two southbound peak-hour trains and the addition of one peak-hour northbound train (the latter accompanied by a "stretching" of the schedule slightly in the morning).  Also, the train between 2040 and 2310 moves around between 2140 and 2240 (likely depending on sports schedules).

The new schedule probably works a little bit better, with three trains for the "morning rush" south (0630, 0700, 0730) and three for the "evening rush" north (1640, 1710, 1740) which also seem to be timed a little bit better than the old timetable equivalents (0800 skewed just a little bit on the late side SB, getting into Miami after 0900, while 0600 was just a little bit too early; having only 1713 (now 1710) north at the peak (1613 being workable-but-a-hair-early and 1813 being rather on the late side)).

I'm taking this as a positive development even as it represents a break from a more-or-less pure "clock" model.  I'm glad that they were able to take steps to accommodate peak-hour demand (even if I think they'll ultimately need an extra set or two vs their plans to properly handle it in the long run).

Another quirk: One train in the morning "pulse" is showing with only three cars (two Smart, one Select) available, with the normal allowance for SmartPlus.  I cannot find any equivalent train later in the day, so I don't know if this is some sort of booking quirk or if they're holding one car for commuter passholders.

Edit: It looks like they're holding coach four on the 0700 SB and 1710 NB trains for these pax.  Coach four is "missing" from both trains and coaches 1-3 correspond to the "standard" coaches 1-3.


----------



## cpotisch

Can someone explain why they don't have train numbers? I mean I get that they only have three or four consists in use at a given time, and that there are currently only three stops, but it still gets confusing/tedious to have to figure out which train is which. For example, let's say I am taking the 12:00 from West Palm to Miami, and want to meet up with a friend who is boarding in Fort Lauderdale. To really make sure we're on the same train, I either have to pull up the Brightline schedule and see when my train departs Fort Lauderdale, or search for WPB-FLL in the booking engine, and from there determine what time my train departs FLL, and therefore which train my friend has to pick. I'll concede that that's not the end of the world, but it would just be much easier if each train was numbered.


----------



## Anderson

Brightline does have train numbers (I once caught a glimpse of an internal timetable), but they are only used internally.  If I recall correctly, the numbers start at 201.

I can't blame them for not using numbers in public, at least while they're fiddling with the timetable. It would be very confusing for plenty of people if those numbers kept changing (like with the latest change...do they renumber half of the trains or have a few "screwball" trains with "wrong" numbers?).  I suspect that numbers may get used once they extend service to Orlando.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Anderson- According to a post on FB, Brightline has a trainset with only 3 coaches instead of 4 due to an incident with an automobile.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> Anderson- According to a post on FB, Brightline has a trainset with only 3 coaches instead of 4 due to an incident with an automobile.


An automobile crashed into the side of a Brightline train in Boca Raton last week damaging one car, which is temporarily grounded as repairs are made, and that consist is running one car short. But the timetable was prepared before that happened. So I am not sure that the two are connected.

OTOH, Brightline reservation system is quite dynamic, and it will reflect the effect of using the shorter train in its rotation on seat availability accurately.


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> Anderson- According to a post on FB, Brightline has a trainset with only 3 coaches instead of 4 due to an incident with an automobile.


That sort-of makes sense, but I'm still a little surprised that there's no other frequency using that set.  Mid-afternoon would be a good time to use it based on my data from September.


----------



## jis

The consist involved was Bright Blue. The car involved is Coach 4. In the reservation system it is showing up either as absent or sold out on all turns that uses this consist, until the car is repaired and restored to the consist. Damage to the underskirt and a truck.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> The consist involved was Bright Blue. The car involved is Coach 4. In the reservation system it is showing up either as absent or sold out on all turns that uses this consist, until the car is repaired and restored to the consist. Damage to the underskirt and a truck.


Bright Blue, huh? That sort of hits close to home. :unsure:


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Bright Blue, huh? That sort of hits close to home.


Indeed it does, doesn’t it? [emoji52]


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> An automobile crashed into the side of a Brightline train in Boca Raton last week damaging one car, which is temporarily grounded as repairs are made, and that consist is running one car short. But the timetable was prepared before that happened. So I am not sure that the two are connected.
> 
> OTOH, Brightline reservation system is quite dynamic, and it will reflect the effect of using the shorter train in its rotation on seat availability accurately.


You mean "Train cuts off car on road causing accident! Was conductor who was driving responsible for deliberate road rage? News at 11!"


----------



## GBNorman

I have a Brightline joyride set for this Sunday. Leave Miami 4P arrive WP 515P return  8P arrive 915P. Select $80, so they're not giving anything away any more.


----------



## JRR

GBNorman said:


> I have a Brightline joyride set for this Sunday. Leave Miami 4P arrive WP 515P return  8P arrive 915P. Select $80, so they're not giving anything away any more.


We will miss you by one day - The Traveler, Mystic River Dragon and I, are doing Miami to WPB as part of the “Mini Gathering”. If interested PM me.


----------



## GBNorman

From Marriott Biscayne Bay Miami- 

Joyride today. Dinner at Ruth's Chris in WP, then back to here.

I was leaving tomorrow but with Chicago weather, United is waiving exchange fees so I'm going back Tuesday.


----------



## GBNorman

Aboard Brightline $? (410P MiA dp).

First, the Miami station is at 6th St and 1st Ave. The Mover station is Wilkie and not Govt Center. 

As one can see, Select passengers (whoops, Guests) are not bereft of Snacks and drink- especially the latter!!

The on-board service in Select is same as airline First.


----------



## GBNorman

From Brightline West Palm--

I have the Select lounge all to myself waiting for the 8P back to Miami. They even have Ferrari-Carrno Fume Blanc set out along with many a nibble.

No question whatever, they're trying.

On the strength of this exceptional service product. I hope they make it  but considering the costs they are addressing to "build it out",  I must continue my skepticism.

Aboard 8P SB train; on our way.


----------



## GBNorman

Also, whoever those guys are that plan a joyride on Monday Jan 28, welcome to PM me tomorrow morning. I'll probably be asleep on the Therapedic mattress at Marriott, but I'll check PM as soon as I wake up so we can take it from there.


----------



## frequentflyer

When does the Virgin branding start? New Livery.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I had the chance to ride Select this past weekend, my first time in Select since they added the amenities. My experience was similar to Mr. Norman's, although the cold meats were not offered in the Select lounge. Maybe because I rode a midday train, as opposed to later in the day. There were a little over a dozen passengers in Select traveling from Miami to Fort Lauderdale, but after Fort Lauderdale all but myself and another passenger detrained while no one else boarded. I did try the "meat and cheese" box (pictured below). It was okay. I am not much of a cheese eater, but it was something to hold me over. I think they are available for purchase in Smart (a price is listed on the menu), but of course it is included with the Select ticket. 

Personally, since I really don't care much for alcohol I do not see much value in Select. The extra space was nice, but I'm not _that_ anti-social.  :giggle:


----------



## VentureForth

frequentflyer said:


> When does the Virgin branding start? New Livery.


I thought I read something, but I can't find anything.  I think they are worried about their IPO first.


----------



## cpotisch

VentureForth said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> When does the Virgin branding start? New Livery.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I read something, but I can't find anything.  I think they are worried about their IPO first.
Click to expand...

I REALLY hope they don't change the Brightline livery. The yellow and silver scheme looks so good, whereas the Virgin Trains livery... :unsure:


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> My experience was similar to Mr. Norman's, although the cold meats were not offered in the Select lounge. Maybe because I rode a midday train, as opposed to later in the day.


Seems pretty likely. When I rode Select on a 2:30 PM train from Miami to West Palm on 12/28, we didn't see anything like that. Still, since there was a huge basket of Salt and Vinegar chips, Luna Bars, soda, etc, and I don't eat meat, I wasn't exactly complaining...


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

cpotisch--

Sounds like our nice selection of stuff on the midday Select train we took on the TPS tour. We had champagne on the train, as well, and wonderful huge chocolate chip cookies.   

I agree with you about the livery. Although, to be fair, the Brightline first car of the train set does look like the giant eye of an insect, just like the Virgin one. However, the candy cane colors more than make up for that.

It is, in part, those colors that have attracted the general public to Brightline and made it seem so cozy and cheerful and fun. Richard Branson is a smart man, and I don't think he will mess with perfect marketing, but we shall see.


----------



## cirdan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Richard Branson is a smart man, and I don't think he will mess with perfect marketing, but we shall see. ﻿


I don't think Branson gets personally involved in the ins and outs of his businesses any more. He's delegated all of that to others, and has moved into more of a big ideas type of role.


----------



## jis

Branson has only a consultant role anyway. He has very little in the way of a controlling role, and frankly Virgin Trains UK could learn a few things about quality service from Brightline, rather than the other way around. The major asset involved is the brand name.

As for the livery of trains, Patrick Goddard has publicly stated that Brightline will move away from individual color identity for train sets once they acquire more sets in preparation for extending service to Orlando. What color they will choose for the trains then is an open issue, but my suspicion is that they will probably not change the color on the power-heads much, and just go to some uniform color for the cars.

But of course time will tell.


----------



## cirdan

Branson's early ventures were all succesful. When taking on the Virgin Trains franchise (especially Cross-Country), I think he / they seriously understimated the complexity, constraints and conflicts that came with a franchise that, to be honest, was already performing poorly prior to Virgin becoming involved.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Branson's early ventures were all succesful. When taking on the Virgin Trains franchise (especially Cross-Country), I think he / they seriously understimated the complexity, constraints and conflicts that came with a franchise that, to be honest, was already performing poorly prior to Virgin becoming involved.


Also, even though the Virgin brand was used in VTEC, financially, Virgin had only a 10% stake in the thing, and it sank mostly because of over-promising and failing to meet that, rather than because there was no way to make it work at some level of service. The Rail Regulators were at least as responsible for the failure as the franchisee, though the bureaucrats love to cover their exposed rear ends by dumping on everyone else when their cockamamie schemes fail.


----------



## DSS&A

Virgin Trains (Brightline) is investigating a possible new station site in Fort Peirce.   Fort Pierce owns the downtown property and has goals for the type of development they want built on it.

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/growth/2019/02/05/virgin-trains-usa-interested-h-d-king-site-fort-pierce/2775858002/


----------



## GBNorman

That Brightline (Virgin, whatever) is apparently now planning a stop in Ft. Pierce (St. Lucie County) is a "concession" that they should have been prepared to make from the outset. Who knows, Gannett's Treasure Coast Newspapers will suddenly be in support of Brightline.

Also of note; the lawyers retained by the various anti-train factions won't exact like it. "Sob, sob" for them.

Now, as the immediately linked article notes, Ft. Pierce is where land to build the station can be had on the cheap.  All well and good and Jishnu may concur, but I would think there would be greater passenger potential "up the line" in more affluent Vero Beach (Indian River County). But wherever this intermediate stop is located, there is now potential to handle passengers to and from flights at MCO - especially if the transfer is "seamless". There seemed little potential for airport traffic at the Gold Coast stops - all have major "International" airports.

Finally, for what it be worth, when my Father and his (second) wife, resided in Vero, they did their flying from PBI.  That of course was a "drive in the wrong direction".


----------



## jis

They (Brightline) had said all along that they would add stations once they had the core Orlando service up and running. We in Brevard County negotiated a station with them based on that while the Treasure Coast threw a hissy fit about trains in general. It is gross ignorance or at least lack of understanding of the local politics to now claim that it was all just because of the lack of a station, and trying to excuse the general anti-rail obfuscation by the likes of CARE-FL, who led such opposition and who are still around but are being ignored more and more. Their position always has been “no train no station, no one needs that”. Indian River County, where Vero is located, is still firmly opposed to passenger service on FEC and is still fighting on. They will eventually lose and give up and then flow rivers of tears for a station, like the juvenile brats that they are. [emoji41] Meanwhile Stuart has not quite made up its mind yet about whether to support or oppose, but at least they are now divided, and a part of Stuart is in favor of getting a station. But they will lose out to Ft. Pierce.


----------



## Anderson

I cannot speak to the viability, but under the agreement with the Expressway folks in theory both Stuart and Fort Pierce could get stations (the rule in that agreement is, roughly, one station per county north of Palm Beach).  I'd note that Fort Pierce, by happy accident, probably limits the need to actually do anything at Vero in the near term due to its catchment area.

As to why they didn't move this earlier, I'd note that this has pretty clearly been in the works for a few years.  The problem is that once they got to a certain point, adding these stations earlier ran the risk of messing up the various environmental documents...for example, Indian River (or CARE) would probably have sued using this as grounds.  The morass of bond documents and the like would also have had to be redone at that point as well, I'm guessing, adding to the complications.  Adding them after-the-fact seems to be a safer move even if they're working on it now (since it basically lands as an extra project rather than part of the original project).


----------



## GBNorman

It's time to prepare and accept that there will be one stop in each of the "aggrieved" Treasure Coast counties.

Just a guess:

Martin; Stuart

St Lucie; Ft. Pierce

Indian River; Vero "Zero" Beach 

Brevard; defer to Jishnu

Not all trains, but enough; do the Regionals in the Corridor make all stops?


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> Not all trains, but enough; do the Regionals in the Corridor make all stops?


Some don't. Stations like Newark Airport, Metropark, BWI, and even Trenton are only served by certain trains.


----------



## jis

GBNorman said:


> It's time to prepare and accept that there will be one stop in each of the "aggrieved" Treasure Coast counties.
> 
> Just a guess:
> 
> Martin; Stuart
> 
> St Lucie; Ft. Pierce
> 
> Indian River; Vero "Zero" Beach
> 
> Brevard; defer to Jishnu
> 
> Not all trains, but enough; do the Regionals in the Corridor make all stops?


Suffice it to say that Brevard is not considered by anyone to be Treasure Coast.  The total length of coastline of Brevard is longer than that of Martin, St. Lucie and Indian River, combined, and it is known as Space Coast. The Brevard station will be at Coca/Rockledge. Ideally, there should be second station in the South Melbourne/Palm Bay area, but that is unlikely at present. For the same reason it is highly unlikely that each of the Treasure Counties will get a station.


----------



## keelhauled

According to Bloomberg, the IPO has been delayed.


----------



## Anderson

cpotisch said:


> Some don't. Stations like Newark Airport, Metropark, BWI, and even Trenton are only served by certain trains.


And there are a few stations (Princeton Junction, Aberdeen, and North Philadelphia) that get some limited additional coverage.



keelhauled said:


> According to Bloomberg, the IPO has been delayed.


Well, if this isn't a red letter day for us...sigh...


----------



## John Bredin

keelhauled said:


> According to Bloomberg, the IPO has been delayed.


They seriously started out with the "money-losing" trope?! It's a startup, of sorts. Not making money for investors *at the beginning* (as the article quotes an analyst) is par for the course. I bet no news story about the tech giants when they were money-losing *started off* with that fact.

Also, they seem to have missed that this is as much a real-estate "play" as a transportation one, which you'd think a business news source would pick up on. They had the perfect place to mention it in the paragraph on Flagler.

Not a hatchet job, but not fair reportage either, IMHO.


----------



## jis

Besides, all that happened is they found private funding to cover the expenses for now, so they do not need to go through the significant additional paperwork needed to be a publicly traded company.


----------



## cirdan

John Bredin said:


> They seriously started out with the "money-losing" trope?! It's a startup, of sorts. Not making money for investors *at the beginning* (as the article quotes an analyst) is par for the course. I bet no news story about the tech giants when they were money-losing *started off* with that fact.


In the early days of Amazon, you couldn't find any coverage of them that didn't ram the fact down your throat that they were losing money hand over fist.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Besides, all that happened is they found private funding to cover the expenses for now, so they do not need to go through the significant additional paperwork needed to be a publicly traded company.


This is an ongoing thing.  There's so much money in the hands of a few billionaires and slightly more multimillionaires, who needs to go public?  Staying private is the "in thing" on Wall Street.

Honestly I'll probably have to get into private equity soon because the public stock markets are actually disappearing.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> This is an ongoing thing.  There's so much money in the hands of a few billionaires and slightly more multimillionaires, who needs to go public?  Staying private is the "in thing" on Wall Street.
> 
> Honestly I'll probably have to get into private equity soon because the public stock markets are actually disappearing.


Another reason for going/staying private is that can limit exposure to hedge fund mismanagement (coughHunterHarrisoncough).  Sadly, no companies seem to be inclined to turn to "activist" investors and suggest that, if they are displeased with the running of the company, they find somewhere else to invest it.  I think staying private also saves a _lot_ of regulatory filings and issues.


----------



## GBNorman

I offer this ominous report in the spirit of "they sure have tried":

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190218/after-failed-ipo-brightlines-finances-troubled-experts-say    

Fair Use:



> Quote
> Financial experts say it’s unclear how long Virgin Trains USA can continue to operate after putting the brakes on a stock offering that would have raised nearly $500 million in much-needed capital.
> 
> With a cash flow of negative $6.8 million per month, the money-losing parent of the Brightline train service must look outside passenger revenue for a financial lifeline, said Ozgur Ince, a finance professor at the University of South Carolina.
> 
> “Their cash position looks very precarious,” Ince said. “With only $273,000 in cash and cash equivalents, they really needed the $500 million or so cash infusion from the IPO.”
> 
> Richard Rampell, a Palm Beach CPA and former board member of the RailAmerica freight line, also sees financial trouble down the track.
> 
> “At this rate, they could last maybe a year,” Rampell said. “Then they’re going to be in big trouble unless they can get some more capital.”


Best advice; "get on down" and "on the pronto" for a taste of what rail travel can be.

[/QUOTE]


----------



## chrsjrcj

I wonder if the XpressWest acquisition was an attempt to make Virgin look more viable and attract investors? 

It will be interesting to see if there is further delay in the start of construction for the Cocoa to Orlando segment.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Maybe I am the eternal optimist on this... case in point, Brightline has always said they expected 3 years of ramp up before they would meet their ridership projections. I take this to mean that they have planned ahead to ensure they don't get starved of cash during the ramp up period. The last ridership/revenue report by Louis Berger that came out last fall even said they could break even with just 55-60% of predicted ridership. 

Another thing to consider is what is the financial relationship between the real estate development and the train operations? The current organizational structure shows Virgin Trains USA owned by AAF Holdings LLC and Corvina (Richard Branson's company). VTUS controls Brightline Trains LLC and Brightline Property Holdings LLC (among other subsidiaries), which would seem to be the old AAF Operations and AAF Stations LLCs. How much revenue will their real estate produce? I suspect that once they get their Miami Central complex fully opened, it alone will become a good source of revenue. It is my understanding that not much has opened in Miami. Central Fare is yet to open and the apartment and office towers are not ready yet. Future expansion to Tampa and potential real estate development there will add to their S Florida real estate revenue over time. I did read that one of the reasons they want to come to Tampa is that they need a second big station development to add revenue. That is one of the issues with the MCO airport station - no other revenue sources there. Perhaps they will find enough land at an I-Drive area station site near the theme parks?

I would think that within the Fortress organization there are ways to ensure that VTUS has enough cash on hand to maintain and grow their business during the initial ramp up period. Also, since this is Wes Edens' pet project, I am quite sure he would not allow it to fail before it ever got going.

Edit: Brightline announced back in late 2018 that the NTP would be given to the construction contractors working on phase 2 (WPB - Orlando) around first of March 2019. If they miss this date then I will suspect that the "alternate financing options" are not quite there.


----------



## neroden

It's pretty clear that they got a direct infusion of private equity money.  They don't have to report how much it was or when it was or even who put the money in, so we probably won't find out unless there's another bond prospectus or something.

Dunno whether it's enough to get to Orlando or whether they'll need more.


----------



## jis

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190221/brightline-seeks-additional-950-million-in-bonds


----------



## GBNorman

From Hilton Glades Road Boca Raton--

OK, Jishnu has reported their "alternative financing".

Now, unless they have some party; hey Softbank, prepared to guarantee these issues, then I see "no hope".

If Fortress accepts that Brightline is a lost hope as a passenger transportation company, but will bring benefit to their real estate development activities in the three Gold Coast cities, then great. But they must step forward and include guarantees within the indentures, or otherwise bonds secured only by Brightline's EBIDTA, or what's there to seevice and eventually pay off the debt, or otherwise, it's "TILT; Game over".

Thanks for the memories.


----------



## neroden

The bonds will sell.  It's clear there's also a silent equity investor involved.  (They're proposing $950 million in bonds, but when dropping the IPO, said that they were trying to raise $2 billion; this says they've got a billion in equity coming down the pike.)  This is probably enough to get to Orlando.

It appears that the response they got to the IPO was a few private equity investors who said "We'll invest but only if you stay private" -- I've seen this before, recently.  It's a thing now, for whatever reason.

They aren't out of the woods even after getting to Orlando, of course.  That's just barely large enough to have a chance of breaking even.  But at this point I'm guessing they will make it to Orlando.


----------



## Brian_tampa

A year ago when they sold the initial $600M tranche of PABs they were over subscribed. They received $2.2B in offers. 

The $950M along with the $1.15B previously allocated will fully fund phase 2 to Orlando. Brightline has previously said phase 2 will require $2.1B to construct. As far as I know, Fortress did not make any promises to financially back those who bought the 2017 bonds. In fact those bonds have increased in value over the past year if you actually care to check the bond trades that are public record.

The past couple of years has been rough on bonds and IPOs in general. This is due to our current administration and it's reckless actions with trade and associated impacts on the economy. There are consequences to not having a stable environment for investors. A tax cut alone will not guarantee prosperity.

But I agree that buyers of bonds will be more interested in long term results versus those investors who buy into IPOs.


----------



## Anderson

My guess is that the increase in the bonds' value has more to do with the resolution of the legal challenges than it does the operating situation.  Indian River County getting its previous suit rejected is not a bad thing for Brightline.  As long as they get to Orlando I think they're good (and Tampa, should it come to pass, only helps that situation).

I will say that it is quite possible to envision a situation where the line goes bankrupt and ends up owned by the bondholders...and that they're able to make good in the longer term regardless.  I suspect they can still avoid that fate, but regardless of whether they do or not it seems like there's a lot to be milked out of station properties, track/station access fees, commuter contracts, etc.  I don't know for sure what's involved here.

BTW, it did just occur to me that putting the Jacksonville extention into a separate company might have been a defensive move: If the "main" project were to go bust, without that there it wouldn't be hard to see someone swooping in and attempting to "force" Jacksonville onto them, and an operation in receivership would plausibly look to offer access to Amtrak and/or any sort of Jacksonville-based commuter operations for a relative song to generate _any_ additional revenue.


----------



## GBNorman

Talk about dedication to a cause: a fellow who posts at another site, this past Saturday, flew LGA-MIA, took a taxicab to Miami Central, rode Brightline to West Palm, then reversed the route - apparently all in one day.

WOW


----------



## Anderson

GBNorman said:


> Talk about dedication to a cause: a fellow who posts at another site, this past Saturday, flew LGA-MIA, took a taxicab to Miami Central, rode Brightline to West Palm, then reversed the route - apparently all in one day.
> 
> WOW


It wasn't _that _bad, but my trips for both first runs were mildly epic:
-One of them involved flying B6 down the night before, crashing with Mom and Dad at the condo in Highland Beach, taking the train with them WPB-FLL and back, and then hopping on B6 to come back to Virginia for the rest of a science fiction convention.
-The other involved breaking away from parachuting outside Ocala for a day...drove down to WPB with a friend, spent the night, took the first train into Miami Central and then back up to WPB, then drove back up to Ocala...and jumping out of a plane that afternoon.

Mind you, these were first runs, so I'll ask for a partial bye on them.

(There was also my opening day loop on the first Norfolk train: Drove to NFK, took the train NFK-RVR-NPN, Thruway bus NPN-NFK, drove home.  Got some sleep.  Got up and took an accounting final.)


----------



## jis

https://www.thenextmiami.com/bright...planning-on-paying-off-600m-bonds-next-month/


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## Brian_tampa

Brightline/Virgin is still working on a FLL airport station. But the big news is they are talking with American, Jetblue, and Southwest about forming partnerships to facilitate travel between the different modes.

Quote:

Bhandari adds that Virgin Trains is in discussions with American Airlines, JetBlue and Southwest to offer "park, check-in, take Lyft for the last-mile" packages that allow passengers to take trains to nearby stations for travel to and from Miami and Fort Lauderdale airports.

See full article here

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...lans-airline-partners-for-orlando-air-456817/

This is the result of 20+ years of foresight and planning by the GOAA and will be well worth it in the end for the Orlando airport.


----------



## Anderson

Called it. Totally called it.

*ahem*

Enough of this was obvious that it would be hard to believe that Virgin _wouldn't_ follow this model, and I strongly suspect that Virgin will end up adding Virgin to the mix.

With all-domestic itineraries, one thing I would _strongly_ look at in Virgin's case would be through-checking bags, at least _from_ flights _to_ the train. Granted, the TSA is borderline inept, but given the relevant security screening needs that seems like a decent option to offer ("Skip the airport baggage claim!").

As to the ridership data: I'm glad to see that, and I agree that ridership may well be above estimates (though we're not yet to year-over-year comparables yet, of course) but the sticking point has been on the side of ticket prices and ancillary revenue. The latter may "take care of itself" in several respects (Tri-Rail to downtown adding track access fees, and...when is all of the retail/food in the station supposed to be operational?) but the former is still a concern, and will probably be even more of one in the context of Tri-Rail going to MiamiCentral.


----------



## Anderson

BTW, does anybody have a link to the _actual_ February ridership/revenue release for February?


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## Brian_tampa

More info from the forthcoming bond sale via the prospectus document. I am trying to get a copy of this document as well.

https://floridapolitics.com/archive...a-reveals-more-plan-details-in-new-prospectus


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> BTW, does anybody have a link to the _actual_ February ridership/revenue release for February?


https://emma.msrb.org/IssuerHomePage/Issuer?id=C44A6C3E4A6604C25DDE3C1C5C7FA2E4&type=G

Click accept terms and once the new page appears go to the disclosures tab. All monthly reports are there. There is no direct link to individual reports. The link will send you to the home page for FDFC infrastructure bonds.


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## Anderson

Brian,
Much obliged, and I apolgize in advance if I forget that post above. I'd wondered what the issue was with those links, so thanks for telling me.


----------



## neroden

I'll repeat my general observation that railroads are economies-of-scale businesses. Brightline/Virgin is not going to make a profit unless it gets *larger*. Orlando is essential and Tampa is important.


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## jis

*Virgin Trains USA's Patrick Goddard Wants to Get Americans Out of Their Cars*

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/vi...dard-wants-to-get-americans-out-of-their-cars


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## jis

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-south-florida-rail-station-future-20190329-story.html


----------



## cocojacoby

The situation in Florida is getting a bit complicated to say the least.

Tri-Rail should have always gone down the FEC in south Florida. Amtrak also should go down the entire FEC from Jacksonville. Jacksonville Union Station is seriously being considered for reactivation and that's on the FEC south of where Amtrak branches off to the west and the population centers are along the east coast. But there seems to be no plans for a NW wye so Virgin trains (and maybe even Amtrak) could run Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa which seems rather important. There also is no planned station near Cocoa and the popular Space Coast with the Kennedy Space Center and very busy Port Canaveral Cruise Port.

Amtrak should go the new Miami Airport Station or Miami Central but goes to the worst choice of the three Miami area stations out in the middle of nowhere with no services.

Serving the Port of Miami is a great idea but the physical connection makes it rather difficult since you can't easily go from Miami Central to the Port without a long timely backup move. Bus transfer would probably be quicker and would be able to serve all cruise terminals.

There are a lot of moving pieces here and putting them all together is going to be a bit of a challenge. There are now a lot of great rail assets in Florida but they just don't all fit together right.


----------



## jis

A Brightline station is in the works at Cocoa-Rockledge. It is just not as sexy a project as some of the others that we hear about all the time.

BTW, Brightline actually does not need the very expensive in real estate cost northward leg of the Wye. Since its trains can reverse easily, they can run a Tampa - Orlando - Coca - JAX service quite easily. But all of that is after the basic service starts to Orlando.

And whoever said that the same train will serve both Miami Central and Miami Port anyway?

I have very grave doubts that Amtrak will ever run on the new Brightline trackage. I can see Amtrak still operating a train or two a day along the coast original FEC line, but not to Miami Central. They will transfer over to Tri-Rail between Mangonia and West Palm Beach to the tracks they use south of WPB now..


----------



## Anderson

Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not _entirely_ sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.

(Had the DRG&W _really _wanted to, they could probably have tried a train-off for the whole route at some point and Amtrak would have been in the same boat there. Ditto Southern, had they managed to simply "dump" the _Crescent_.)

I think part of the issue has been Amtrak not getting the funding to do it, and part was FEC's folks starting up the whole Brightline thing (which plausibly killed any interest in working with Amtrak).


----------



## GBNorman

Looks like Sir Richard's first "footprint" will be the renaming of Miami Central Station to Virgin Miamicentral:

https://virginmiamicentral.com

So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.


----------



## pennyk

Orlando Sentinel Editorial (4/4/19 print edition): "Let Virgin Trains roll, just leave taxpayers out of it."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opi...rgin-trains-florida-bonds-20190403-story.html

"...On Friday, a quasi-government agency is scheduled to decide whether Virgin Trains USA — the new name for Brightline — should be allowed to sell $950 million in tax-exempt bonds to complete a rail project linking Miami and Orlando. The agency already approved $1.75 billion in bonds for the project..."


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not _entirely_ sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.
> 
> (Had the DRG&W _really _wanted to, they could probably have tried a train-off for the whole route at some point and Amtrak would have been in the same boat there. Ditto Southern, had they managed to simply "dump" the _Crescent_.)
> 
> I think part of the issue has been Amtrak not getting the funding to do it, and part was FEC's folks starting up the whole Brightline thing (which plausibly killed any interest in working with Amtrak).


There was also the minor issue of how does an Amtrak train cross over from FEC to TriRail to make it to its Miami terminal. The solution is about to be inaugurated in the form of the Northwood Connection's southbound FEC to TriRail link, just north of West Palm Beach. Until that was in place it was pretty much impossible for Amtrak to run down the FEC and get to Miami station or Hialeah maintenance facility, specially before the Iris Connection was built to get the TriRail trains to Miami Central, which just happened last year (2018).

The northbound FEC to TriRail connection was built and inaugurated last year, and is mostly for freight use now. Some day TriRail Coastal service may come up the FEC and use this to get to Mangonia TriRail station and perhaps beyond, if TriRail chooses to acquire more of the inland route from CSX and extend service on it. Though beyond Mangonia CSX leaves the coast and runs through marshes and sticks.

The new Southbound link is slated for use by TriRail for extending service on FEC to Jupiter from its own WPB station.


----------



## AGM.12

Somewhere, I read that as part of its 5 year plan, Amtrak will seek to acquire right of way. One of these mentioned was the CSX Auburndale sub. Does Amtrak plan a florida version of the NEC? If so what effect would this have on Virgin/Brightline ? Would they fight to stop Amtrak, or just ignore them?


----------



## Anderson

AGM.12 said:


> Somewhere, I read that as part of its 5 year plan, Amtrak will seek to acquire right of way. One of these mentioned was the CSX Auburndale sub. Does Amtrak plan a florida version of the NEC? If so what effect would this have on Virgin/Brightline ? Would they fight to stop Amtrak, or just ignore them?



In re the Auburndale Sub, I think the issue there is that CSX kinda wants to dump the line. There isn't really much "internal" ridership here, so the odds of it becoming a "second NEC" seem small. I also suspect that there would be some pressure against the state supporting an Amtrak route designed to fight with Brightline. An interesting side-question, however, would be whether if Amtrak did this there would be an effort to patch it together with the SunRail-owned tracks in Orlando, since if you did _that_, you'd have a stretch of track from DeLand to Miami in public ownership.

Edit: And of course, the question of extending that ownership towards either Tampa or Jacksonville then enters the picture. Looking at Florida's old rail plan, IIRC the passenger operations proposed were basically that plus the theoretical Brightline build-out. I think the question then becomes figuring out what sorts of services to run (commuter/local vs express) and whether you can get everyone serving a few good common/interchange stations in the major metro areas.


----------



## cirdan

cocojacoby said:


> Serving the Port of Miami is a great idea but the physical connection makes it rather difficult since you can't easily go from Miami Central to the Port without a long timely backup move. Bus transfer would probably be quicker and would be able to serve all cruise terminals.



Is there even space to hold a passenger train at the port of Miami? Looking at the Google Earth satellite pictures there just appears to be a set of long sidings/spurs used for transshipping containers. A passenger train would be totally lost there and it would still be a long way from where the cruise ships call.

Yes, I know there has been, and possibly still occasionally is, the occasional corporate entertainment train with private varnish that does go there. But that's not really the same as serving cruise ships.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Is there even space to hold a passenger train at the port of Miami? Looking at the Google Earth satellite pictures there just appears to be a set of long sidings/spurs used for transshipping containers. A passenger train would be totally lost there and it would still be a long way from where the cruise ships call.
> 
> Yes, I know there has been, and possibly still occasionally is, the occasional corporate entertainment train with private varnish that does go there. But that's not really the same as serving cruise ships.


I have actually visited FEC's property at Port Miami several times during the FECRS Annual Conventions, and contrary to what might surmise based on Google Earth perusal, there is actually plenty of space there. They might have to repaint a road or two differently, involving no construction, to make space for building a platform along the northern edge of the property, possibly even with Disney style Tram facilities to move passengers to the cruise terminal across the approach road.

Clearly it is not going to be something that does not require some significant investment, but space is not going to be a problem. During the FECRS Convention visits I have heard Port people discuss how they could put in a single platform passenger station to feed cruise ships there years before Branson showed up.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> In re the Auburndale Sub, I think the issue there is that CSX kinda wants to dump the line. There isn't really much "internal" ridership here, so the odds of it becoming a "second NEC" seem small. I also suspect that there would be some pressure against the state supporting an Amtrak route designed to fight with Brightline. An interesting side-question, however, would be whether if Amtrak did this there would be an effort to patch it together with the SunRail-owned tracks in Orlando, since if you did _that_, you'd have a stretch of track from DeLand to Miami in public ownership.
> 
> Edit: And of course, the question of extending that ownership towards either Tampa or Jacksonville then enters the picture. Looking at Florida's old rail plan, IIRC the passenger operations proposed were basically that plus the theoretical Brightline build-out. I think the question then becomes figuring out what sorts of services to run (commuter/local vs express) and whether you can get everyone serving a few good common/interchange stations in the major metro areas.


The real problem with the Auburndale - WPB segment of CSX is that south of Winter Haven, the population centers are small and either poor or very rich in gated communities (unlikely to ride a train). The big ridership is Tampa/Orlando to South Florida. Some entity could provide a less luxurious lower cost service and that could do well if it was reliable. But a Brightline like service would probably beat it in running time. 

The biggest promise of local service is in extending SunRail from Poinciana to Tampa. South of Auburndale, not so much. There it would be a "nice to have" thing, but probably lower in priority for Florida than additional services around Miami, Orlampa, East Coast and Jacksonville.

Some day one could dream of a north south corridor running from Sebring upto Ocala or some such, but not in the near future in my reckoning.

And at best Amtrak could be the operating contractor for some, though it could as well be SunRail or an entity like that which FDOT has more control over. The crystal ball is pretty hazy....


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## Mystic River Dragon

So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.[/QUOTE]

Well, that's a mouthful. It will take longer to say the station name than take the train ride!


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## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's a mouthful. It will take longer to say the station name than take the train ride!
Click to expand...

Miami Central will always be the anchor of Virgin Trains USA service in South Florida. There may be other terminals for specific purpose, but most Virgin (Brightline) trains will originate and terminate at Miami Central.


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## jadebenn

Anderson said:


> Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not _entirely_ sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.


The timing of the original "All Aboard Florida" announcement leads me to suspect that the causality might be reversed. I believe that the Amtrak on the FEC planning may be what initially _caused_ the FEC to become interested in running their own service in the first place. I don't think it's too unlikely to believe that the FEC hired a consultant to check if Amtrak's numbers were realistic and got a response like, "Actually we think they're _under_estimating them."

The reason I believe this to be the case is due to how quickly the FEC moved forward after the Florida HSR project was canceled. They clearly must've been doing studies even before then, and the 'go/no-go' decision must've been made prior to the announcement. Thus, I don't think it's very plausible for them to come to a decision so quickly if they _hadn't_ been looking into the issue prior to the cancellation of the HSR, though I'm certain that played into it, the timeline definitely suggests they were already looking into the idea when that happened.


----------



## Anderson

I don't think it was the Amtrak/FEC study that was the trigger (if that was, Phase II would have been Jacksonville; as-is, Jacksonville is quite a way down the track). I think it was the abandonment of the HSR project and the relevant projections underlying the ridership there (combined with their expectation of being able to do the job for less).


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## cocojacoby

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Well, that's a mouthful. It will take longer to say the station name than take the train ride!


No more so than Brightline MiamiCentral.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Oh, good point. I always just called it Brightline, being happy to be in whatever station I ended up in!


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## AmtrakWPK

Some thoughts.... Here in Orlando I was happy to see that they got approval for the Bonds for the entire project up through Orlando. From Press coverage up here, the plan is to have an actual station inside the new Terminal they are building at MCO. Also, from local Orlando TV reporting, there is now increasing interest for extending SunRail to that new MCO Terminal as well. That Terminal is still a long way from being finished, though. Right now there is only a part-time Bus Bridge between MCO and SunRail. Sunrail only runs M-F, **AND** only from just before rush hour until late at night. It is NOT 24-hour, and does NOT operate on Weekends except for rare special events. So you are really limited in when you can use it. Your return flight would have to be during a time when SunRail would be running, or you're stuck with a long taxi or Uber or bus ride. If/when they extend SunRail to MCO it would presumably go to 24/7/365. That would also be GREAT for connecting with VIrgin to Miami.


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## jis

I have actually been to the MCO Brightline station which is adjacent to the Terminal C APM station. The basic structure, concourse and platforms are complete awaiting installation of tracks. Brightline currently has a construction office in the structure.

So no, the station is not in the air terminal C concourse. It is in a structure adjacent to the C parking structure, all connected by an integral wide multi level walkway. The terminal C concourse is currently under construction. The Brightline Station, the APM C station and C parking structure are done, and the APM C station and C parking lot are open and serving. I have even parked there a couple of times.

Extending SunRail to the MCO station will involving constructing an additional platform of the correct height for SunRail. There is space preserved for it, but that part is yet to be funded and built, unlike the Brightline part, which is already done.


----------



## GBNorman

So it appears that the industry trade magazine, Bond Buyer,  reports the private placement by Morgan Stanley was successful.

Fair Use:



> The Virgin Trains USA name made a hit with qualified investors who eagerly scooped up its high-yield bonds to finance Florida’s privately owned passenger train project.
> 
> In the largest municipal bond deal of the week, the $1.75 billion of unrated private activity bonds priced Monday with the Florida Development Finance Corp. as the conduit issuer on behalf Virgin Trains USA, formerly known as Brightline.
> 
> The deal, upsized from $1.5 billion initially proposed in bond documents, priced a day ahead of schedule because of strong demand.
> 
> Morgan Stanley, the sole underwriter, said 67 participants sought orders after “very successful” roadshows in Boston and New York. In-person site visits also allowed prospective investors to ride the train service on its current route between Miami and West Palm Beach, which offers passengers wireless internet service, electrical power and USB outlets at all seats, and food and drink service.


Something tells me, these institutional investors, while enjoying their "tax free 6%", are placing their bets that if "things go South" they can take seats at the "Tallytrough" - and be fed.


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## jadebenn

Sorry for the crappy resolution, but it looks like we've finally got a look at the new livery they're going to be rolling out to their trains:





I mean, it's _okay_, but I am gonna miss the yellow-and-black when it's gone. Hoping that this is just a preliminary design, and the final design turns out better.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I have read that the new livery will include elements of the Brightline scheme. They are considering 3 different liveries.

Here are some pics of the future station area at the ITF building. I was there yesterday as part of the group of supporters that attended the FDFC meeting. Also shown is the new Virgin Trains USA shirt they handed out before the meeting.


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## GBNorman

As of this moment (0934CT 08APR), https://www.gobrightline.com is "dark"


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## jis

It is working fine for me.  As of this moment that is.


----------



## GBNorman

Jishnu. I will gladly concede you know more about this stuff than I do.

I tried my phone first through Mobile Data (Verizon) going nowhere near Comcast and got the site complete with its "Bransonizing". Then again through Comcast (with Mobile Date off) and its Chrome browser. It worked. Up to the desktop, no different through IE. Rang up Chrome, it worked. Also worked through Microsoft Edge. So I can only conclude the problem is with IE.


----------



## neroden

I just... well... Brightline is great 'n all, but Miami's doomed. In 30 years, not 50. I wish we could get this sort of service up and running somewhere which isn't gonna have permanent "sunny day flooding".


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## JRR

You mean like Holland? Whoops, they aren’t flooded.


----------



## sitzplatz17

JRR said:


> You mean like Holland? Whoops, they aren’t flooded.


]

Except the Netherlands has spent the better part of a century and billions of euros on flood management systems. Not to mention the fact that the soil in Florida is completely different than the type in the Netherlands. 

There’s a good chance that major parts of the FEC will be underwater before they ever make it to JAX with passenger service.


----------



## Anderson

Yeah...the problem with Miami (really, most of Florida) is that it's porous limestone. That's why you've got all the lakes throughout the central part of the state (and I've occasionally been able to make "sinkhole de Mayo" jokes...the stuff weathers pretty badly and you occasionally get a hole opening up underground that you don't know about until the ground collapses). If it was hard bedrock you might be able to block the sea out with some expensive seawalls assisted by aggressive pumping, but the local limestone won't really allow for that.

Credit to Henry Flagler, I've pulled the flood maps for Miami. As far as I can tell, with the exception of where it crosses a river, the FEC line is high enough to avoid landing in a puddle (so to speak). It seems to roughly track a ridge at least as far as Hallandale Beach/Hollywood.


----------



## cirdan

jadebenn said:


> The reason I believe this to be the case is due to how quickly the FEC moved forward after the Florida HSR project was canceled. They clearly must've been doing studies even before then, and the 'go/no-go' decision must've been made prior to the announcement. Thus, I don't think it's very plausible for them to come to a decision so quickly if they _hadn't_ been looking into the issue prior to the cancellation of the HSR, though I'm certain that played into it, the timeline definitely suggests they were already looking into the idea when that happened.



Cynics might speculate that the HSR project was possibly cancelled at the request of FEC.


----------



## cirdan

sitzplatz17 said:


> ]
> 
> Except the Netherlands has spent the better part of a century and billions of euros on flood management systems. Not to mention the fact that the soil in Florida is completely different than the type in the Netherlands.
> 
> There’s a good chance that major parts of the FEC will be underwater before they ever make it to JAX with passenger service.



The Netherlands aren't as simple as all that. They don't have sinkholes to contend with, but the soil is sandy down to a considerable depth meaning it isn't easy to make things stable and erosion can happen quite quickly if water does find a way in. The metaphoric hole in the dike that can be blocked by a finger could in reality soon wash out into a far bigger breach.

Another major problem the Netherlands need to contend with are the major rivers that form a delta in the south of the country. Blocking off the sea is one thing, but you've still got to ensure the rivers can flow into the sea, and seeing water only flows downhill, and the river must thus be higher than the sea to flow into the sea, and the land is lower than the sea, this means the rivers are higher than the land too in places. That means more dikes and barriers. They have enormous sluice gates with which they can close the rivers off temporarily during storms but this also means they have to be able to retain and store all that water which they do through the controlled and managed flooding of certain portions of land.

Protecting against storms is one thing, but the normal everyday erosion is also a big problem and they have put in underwater sandbanks in places to reduce the force of the waves.

So it's all very sophisticated and there isn't a one size fits all solution. Basically every bit of coast needs a customized solution that respects the peculirarities of the local situation and the interests of the local population, fishermen, shipping channels etc. If they can do, I'm sure Florida can too.


----------



## Ziv

neroden said:


> I just... well... Brightline is great 'n all, but Miami's doomed. In 30 years, not 50. I wish we could get this sort of service up and running somewhere which isn't gonna have permanent "sunny day flooding".


The most recent data I have seen is that sea level rise rate has increased from 1.5" per decade since the end of the Little Ice Age to approximately 2" per decade over the past 20-30 years. Getting 99.9% of South Florida safely to 2060 shouldn't be an issue. Or are you thinking that subsidence is the real issue? I thought that FL DEP was looking at subsidence as a spot issue, not a regional one. But I have to admit that I haven't been following it that closely.


----------



## cirdan

Ziv said:


> The most recent data I have seen is that sea level rise rate has increased from 1.5" per decade since the end of the Little Ice Age to approximately 2" per decade over the past 20-30 years. Getting 99.9% of South Florida safely to 2060 shouldn't be an issue. Or are you thinking that subsidence is the real issue? I thought that FL DEP was looking at subsidence as a spot issue, not a regional one. But I have to admit that I haven't been following it that closely.



When it comes to securing land and buildings, almost nothing is genuinely impossible, it's just a question of how much you're willing to spend.

So my guess is that if some swamps get flooded, nobody will do much to stop that. But when it comes to the extremely valuable areas such as Miami, the owners of the real estate are not going to sit back and watch that all wash away into the sea. They are going to spend money to protect their investment.


----------



## Ziv

cirdan said:


> When it comes to securing land and buildings, almost nothing is genuinely impossible, it's just a question of how much you're willing to spend.
> 
> So my guess is that if some swamps get flooded, nobody will do much to stop that. But when it comes to the extremely valuable areas such as Miami, the owners of the real estate are not going to sit back and watch that all wash away into the sea. They are going to spend money to protect their investment.


Yeah, South Beach has already started a couple projects using pumps and embankments to compartmentalize the flooding and to pump out the water. The problem, and there is always a problem, is that the ground underneath Miami Beach is sand on limestone, both of which are permeable. So any full moon you end up with flooding from the higher tides and the water table probably rises to match. But the pumps apparently remove the water faster than the soil allows it to flow in, or at least that is what it sounded like in the articles I read about them de-watering Miami Beach neighborhoods.

If the recent increase in sea level rise rate continues, it still doesn't seem like it will be all that expensive to protect most of Miami until 2080 or so. But once the rise is over a foot higher than the current levels, it seems like the cost to protect existing neighborhoods will increase relatively drastically. But how many of the buildings in the areas most at risk will be replaced with newer construction with a buildup in the ground level to protect them? Most of the larger roads are being built higher, maybe the majority of the new buildings will be built higher too? 
Some areas are probably toast, but oddly enough, one of the worst areas, South Beach and the islands nearby, is rich enough that they will probably find a way to protect it, at a cost that would be ruinous elsewhere.


----------



## jis

Having seen entire villages that are built on stilts, including roads sometimes, in SE and South Asia, it seems to me that it all depends on how long people want to live in an area, and how much resource they are willing to devote to doing so. The SE and South Asia villages are of course all relatively low resource consumption operations and they have existed successfully for many hundreds of years, even in areas that are visited by powerful typhoons every so often. Sometimes they get wiped out and then rebuild. Sound familiar?

Depending on how the sea level rise rate behaves, things could get worse. But with the current rate, I agree that Miami will be around and possibly thriving even in 2060. The map might look quite different, but then 40 years is a long time.

In the area where I live in East Central Florida in the so called Hammock country, sea level will have to rise considerably to overwhelm the Hammocks and much less so for the "vallies" between the Hammocks. For example, my house is roughly at 30' above MSL. Five miles from here there are localities in the St. Johns River flood plains on the landward side of the Hammock which is just 13' above MSL. St. Johns River is around 10' or so above MSL, and that is 180 miles from its mouth near Jacksonville. OTOH Highway 1 along the Indian River Lagoon is at place more than 10' above MSL, and FEC in most places is about that high or a little higher. 

One thing that is unheard of here is sink holes (I have sink hole insurance for $2 per year. That should tell you something!), which suggests that the geology under Brevard is different from the Florida stereotype that everyone thinks about. Indeed Brevard County has no thick layer of old hollowed out Limestone under it. Actually it does not even have Limestone everywhere and where it does it is a thin, new (around 120,000 years old), solid layer, and with the so called Anastasia Formation of Pleistocene Sediment on it, which holds the surficial aquifer which among other things feeds the source of St. Johns River, which is southwest of here, west of the City of Palm Bay. The porous, leaky and full of caverns old Limestone in other parts of the state is 20 to 25 million years old. On the east coast it is mostly south of Palm Beach and holds the Biscayne Acquifer.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Having seen entire villages that are built on stilts, including roads sometimes, in SE and South Asia, it seems to me that it all depends on how long people want to live in an area, and how much resource they are willing to devote to doing so. The SE and South Asia villages are of course all relatively low resource consumption operations and they have existed successfully for many hundreds of years, even in areas that are visited by powerful typhoons every so often. Sometimes they get wiped out and then rebuild. Sound familiar?



Things like that make you wonder why the people living there don't just give up, pack their belongings and build a new village in a more suitable location. Maybe in places poverty has something to do with it, but I think it is also largely because they do actually make a living precisely there and the benefits thus outweigh the disadvantages.

The same is true in The Netherlands. The same is true in Florida.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Things like that make you wonder why the people living there don't just give up, pack their belongings and build a new village in a more suitable location. Maybe in places poverty has something to do with it, but I think it is also largely because they do actually make a living precisely there and the benefits thus outweigh the disadvantages.
> 
> The same is true in The Netherlands. The same is true in Florida.


Indeed. They would have to leave familiar surroundings, move hundred of miles to areas that are already populated by other people, leading to all sorts of unnecessary conflicts etc. It will take way more than a few feet of water to cause anyone to move too far. OTOH for someone on a coral reef where the entire thing will be a few feet under water with nowhere to grow food or carry out any commerce, now that becomes a different issue.

And yeah, in Asia we are not talking about of 10 or 15 years. We are talking 10 or 50 generations.


----------



## Willbridge

Anderson said:


> Credit to Henry Flagler, I've pulled the flood maps for Miami. As far as I can tell, with the exception of where it crosses a river, the FEC line is high enough to avoid landing in a puddle (so to speak). It seems to roughly track a ridge at least as far as Hallandale Beach/Hollywood.



Sidebar about those rail pioneers: years ago I helped with the Oregon DOT's Lower Columbia River Study using overlays of every sort of issue. One objective was to identify locations good for industrial development with minimal impacts. We found that the best real estate was at Flavel, owned by-- BN. It was where their pier had been for Astoria--San Francisco steamship service. They had beaten everyone else to the site three generations before we worked on the study.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> Credit to Henry Flagler, I've pulled the flood maps for Miami. As far as I can tell, with the exception of where it crosses a river, the FEC line is high enough to avoid landing in a puddle (so to speak). It seems to roughly track a ridge at least as far as Hallandale Beach/Hollywood.


Yeah, he did pretty well. Around NE 20th in Boca Raton it's actually in a flood zone, though; and there are other areas which are quite close to the coastline in the West Palm Beach area. I hope they did some strategic track elevation during Brightline construction.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> If they can do, I'm sure Florida can too.



That's a nice piece of wishful thinking, but Florida is spending less than 1/10 as much on preparing for / preventing flooding as the Netherlands is. When you compare the size of the affected areas -- Florida has 5 times as much area affected and has more severe geological challenges -- you realize that Florida does not have the will to spend the money. It's not even clear that they have the money. (Certainly there are parts of Florida which are high enough and have sufficiently solid bedrock to be OK; but Miami is not one of them.)

It's also very much not like the agricultural and shipping based cities which are present in major deltas like Bangladesh or Egypt or even Louisiana; those are there because they have an economic reason to be there. Florida has very little industry which depends on its location (yeah, maybe some of the citrus and sugar, but nothing else). It's a bizarre historical accident that it has such a high population. It was a depopulated swamp for most of human history.

The big issue is keeping the water supply systems and sewer systems functioning, and they're at serious risk soon: they're not really designed to be surrounded by the pressure of salt water. Repeated rounds of flooding wrecking the water and sewer lines, and people will go somewhere more habitable -- there's no agricultural or shipping riches enticing them to stay, as there are in the long-lasting river delta communities.

People who think Miami will be thriving in 2060 are simply deluding themselves. Once you get up to Tampa and Orlando, sure, they could be OK.

Sea level rise is finally starting to show up in property values, with low-elevation coastal properties starting to take a penalty. The smart money's already getting out.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...are-scenario-for-florida-s-coastal-homeowners

Trump's disgraceful abandonment of Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria resulted in over 400,000 leaving Puerto Rico, mostly permanently. That's one event, and that's a place which *can* be defended. A similar exodus from New Orleans happened after Hurricane Katrina and the failure of the Bush administration there.

One serious failure of the water system in Miami would probably cause a similar level of permanent exodus. And expert opinion is that it's pretty much guaranteed. Septic systems will fail first, so outlying areas will have to be evacuated first.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-29/miami-s-other-water-problem

The Netherlands is spending a billion dollars a year on "water defense" already. Miami-Dade County doesn't even have $3.3 billion to connect septic-system properties to the sewer lines; they're not going to be able to protect the area.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/article224132115.html

I guess Opa-Locka will go first due to not maintaining their sewer system: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-gardens/article217790205.html

The only scientists who are saying that South Florida isn't doomed... are using politic language. When they go into details, they say that people will have to "retreat". Meaning move inland and upland. Meaning, Miami is doomed.

Well, hopefully Brightline will get that Tampa-Orlando line up and running soon.


----------



## jis

South of Palm Beach, in the area that sits atop the Biscayne Aquifer they will have to figure out some other way of getting water supply since my guess is Biscayne Aquifer will slowly become unusable due to saline incursion, possibly much before the Miami area becomes otherwise uninhabitable. But then again using desalination plants to provide usable water from sea water is a well know technology that is used to provide water to significant populations elsewhere in the world. Similarly collect, truck/barge and then process elsewhere sewage systems have also sustained huge and thriving cities like a few in the Emirates. So who knows what people will do?

One thing is for sure. Like the rest of the US, things will be allowed to get much worse before anything is done, and it is entirely possible that by then it will be too late. But that general attitude is deeply ingrained in the DNA of all of USA, not just Florida. It is just that the old farts with deeper ingrainednesses move to Florida in droves, and concentrates such attitudes in significant parts of Florida.

To the Mods: I suspect, the Florida Flood topic needs a new thread in the Lounge, so that we can get back to discussing Virgin/Brightline in this thread, assuming that at least for the next 30 years it will remain above water.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

Ziv said:


> Yeah, South Beach has already started a couple projects using pumps and embankments to compartmentalize the flooding and to pump out the water. The problem, and there is always a problem, is that the ground underneath Miami Beach is sand on limestone, both of which are permeable. So any full moon you end up with flooding from the higher tides and the water table probably rises to match. But the pumps apparently remove the water faster than the soil allows it to flow in, or at least that is what it sounded like in the articles I read about them de-watering Miami Beach neighborhoods.
> 
> If the recent increase in sea level rise rate continues, it still doesn't seem like it will be all that expensive to protect most of Miami until 2080 or so. But once the rise is over a foot higher than the current levels, it seems like the cost to protect existing neighborhoods will increase relatively drastically. But how many of the buildings in the areas most at risk will be replaced with newer construction with a buildup in the ground level to protect them? Most of the larger roads are being built higher, maybe the majority of the new buildings will be built higher too?
> Some areas are probably toast, but oddly enough, one of the worst areas, South Beach and the islands nearby, is rich enough that they will probably find a way to protect it, at a cost that would be ruinous elsewhere.


I dunno about the possibility of increasing elevations enough to save Miami - MIA Intl Airport Runway elevation was officially 7 Feet above MSL on a 1984 FAA Sectional. Unless they have laid new surface on top of that it would be lower than that now. And there are a bunch of navigable rivers that run inland from the coast across that whole area of South Florida. The whole of South Florida is FLAT. It doesn't slope up hardly at all. I have family down there and have been through there a bunch of times, and in Ft. Lauderdale you have literally HUNDREDS of lots that are canal-front and not more than 6 feet, if that, above water at high tide. It may well be less than that now - I haven't been down in that canal area for at least 15 years. It's a mini-Venice. That's a big selling point for all those properties - buy the house and you can moor your boat at your back door, jump in it and motor on down the canal to the river to the Ocean and fish or go to the Freeport for the Weekend. Same thing on the West Coast of Florida around Naples & Ft. Myers. Canals stretch inland for miles, and there are navigable rivers with locks all the way across Florida through Lake Okeechobee from the Florida West Coast to the Florida East Coast. Given all of that, I have no idea how in the world you could possibly protect more than small sections from flooding unless you arbitrarily selected areas to build a moat around and then built bridges across the moat. All the areas with canals would have to be literal Venices. Even beyond the physical "How do we save our buildings and the access to them?" comes "How do we save our drinking water?", "How do we save our sewage treatment systems?", and "How do we save our electrical and electronic signal distribution systems?"..... because those end up under salt water or, in the case of fresh water, salt water intrusion starts to poison more and more of the aquifer farther and farther inland. All modern city power, water, and signal distribution (other than cellphones and HDTV) are underground. It's a colossal mess and the clock is ticking down on it.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

[QUOTE="
Florida has very little industry which depends on its location (yeah, maybe some of the citrus and sugar, but nothing else)."
[/QUOTE]
Florida is a lot more than just some citrus and sugar. Yes, it supplies more than 50% of the U.S. production of both Oranges and Grapefruit, but Florida also produces (% of U.S Production): Cucumbers 38%, Tomatoes (Fresh Market) 34 %, Bell Peppers (Fresh Market) 32 %, Cucumbers (Fresh Market) 32 %, Watermelons, 23 %, Sweet Corn (Fresh Market, NOT for ethanol) 22 %, Snap Beans (Fresh Market) 21 %, Squash 17 %, Cabbage (Fresh Market) 11 %, Strawberries 10 % and Peanuts 9 % (2017 USDA Numbers). A great deal of that comes out of farms in South Florida. And as saltwater intrusion increases, THAT production is also threatened. My mother-in-law and some other of my late Wife's family were from the Naples, Florida area, and I have driven through South Florida on U.S. 27 and across Alligator Alley and through that whole area. There is a tremendous amount of agriculture down there. There is also, running out of Ft. Myers, the Seminole Gulf Railway, that handles freight, connecting to CSX, and has a really fun Murder Mystery Dinner Train https://semgulf.com/ - we rode it once. Fun!


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## jis

Bringing this (or at least tryingto bring it) back to topic, Indian River County has filed an Appeal of the Federal Court's decision to throw out its case regarding tax free bonds. So the beat goes on...

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...ral-lawsuit-against-virgin-trains/3428684002/


----------



## Brian_tampa

Jis, did you get a chance to read Judge Christopher Cooper's memorandum on the case back in December? It was quite weighted against IRC. I don't see how it could be easily overturned. 

Curious as to the timing of their appeal. It seems they waited to see if Brightline could sell the bonds. Now that they have proven they can, I think IRC is scrambling to throw anything into the mix to try to stop the sale. My opinion is that if the bonds didn't sell, then IRC would not have proceeded. Perhaps they know their position isn't the strongest and have a high chance of losing the appeal?


----------



## jis

Brian, I agree with your assessment. I think they will get tossed out by the Appeals Court too, and then they will try to get approval from the County Commissioners to get some more money for their lawyer friend to do something else. Thy are a relatively backward county trying to stay that way I guess, by pissing away their money on useless things.


----------



## Brian_tampa

When I was at the FDFC meeting a week ago I got to hear and see some of the opponents. The lawyer for IRC, Dylan Reingold, was not impressive. No wonder they have lost every single case so far. He tried to make a case that the FDFC should not approve the additional bond authorization because the project is not financially sustainable. Yet the FDFC board shot back in their comments that the investors have spoken loud and clear that the project is feasible. The thing is, Virgin will sell the bonds and even if the tax exemption is ruled unfavorably, Virgin is protected in that the investors were told about the risks of the lawsuit before they bought the bonds. Phase 2 is going to happen. IRC cannot stop it now. I suspect that Virgin will sell the additional $950M before the end of April. And based on today's newspaper story out of Vegas, they will have upcoming bond sales later this year for the Vegas route.


----------



## frequentflyer

From TrainOrders posted by RRBaron..................Interesting reading


When Florida's BrightLine was re-branded Virgin Trains USA on April 4, minority owner Sir Richard Branson said that his team looked at all possible money-making passenger rail routes and came to the conclusion that only BrightLine's Miami to West Palm Beach service (with future extensions to Orlando and Tampa) and a Southern California to Las Vegas, NV, route could turn a profit. When I asked him how his dyslexia disability helped him engage in business he said it actually helped him simplify decision making. Incidentally, the "Virgin" brand refers to the fact that Branson was a complete novice when he entered the business world with his first production--_Student Magazine_. As for BrightLine's unique paint scheme, that will change too. A Virgin Trains USA scheme will be painted on all the rolling stock, once the artwork is finalized. Finally, as a TO wrote earlier, Ft. Lauderdale is a good location to shoot Virgin Trains and the FEC at the current BrightLine station and CSX, Amtrak and Tri-Rail at the nearby Amtrak/Tri-Rail station.


----------



## neroden

Branson is talking his book a little bit (though not too much); there are other routes which could be profitable, but none of them are in a position to acquire ROW within a reasonable timeframe. The routes mentioned have the normally-intractable ROW problem mostly solved.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

Brian_tampa said:


> When I was at the FDFC meeting a week ago I got to hear and see some of the opponents. The lawyer for IRC, Dylan Reingold, was not impressive. No wonder they have lost every single case so far. He tried to make a case that the FDFC should not approve the additional bond authorization because the project is not financially sustainable. Yet the FDFC board shot back in their comments that the investors have spoken loud and clear that the project is feasible. The thing is, Virgin will sell the bonds and even if the tax exemption is ruled unfavorably, Virgin is protected in that the investors were told about the risks of the lawsuit before they bought the bonds. Phase 2 is going to happen. IRC cannot stop it now. I suspect that Virgin will sell the additional $950M before the end of April. And based on today's newspaper story out of Vegas, they will have upcoming bond sales later this year for the Vegas route.


If I lived in that County I think I would be bitching to the County Commissioners at their public meetings about all the taxpayers' money that they were throwing away continuing to tilt at this windmill.


----------



## jis

It appears that a lot of people in that county actually support or at least do not oppose the position being pursued by the commissioners unfortunately.


----------



## Anderson

The perception that Brightline is going to "tear a bunch of these communities apart" with trains running through town is one of the biggest issues they've had to face down.

There's also the fact that there are a lot of other things that county commissions handle, and if my potholes are filled in and my garbage collected in a timely manner I might not be interested in this sideshow.


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## chrsjrcj

For those in the area, $5 fares on the weekend of May 17th thru May 19th. Looks like it is to celebrate Brightline's one year anniversary, plus the grand opening of Central Fare. 

Central Fare did have a soft opening at the end of April. I was there last Thursday, and most of the eateries were still setting up. I can't say I was too impressed, but I'll account most of that to the soft opening. 

https://offers.gobrightline.com/offer/305-weekend/


----------



## Anderson

For various reasons, I'm really glad to see Central Fare opening up. I just have to wonder why it has taken so long...


----------



## Rail Freak

What is Central Fare?


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## jis

Rail Freak said:


> What is Central Fare?


https://virginmiamicentral.com/centralfare/


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## Anderson

Plain language: It's the food court area, which is supposed to add a good bit to Brightline/VTUS' bottom line there.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Well Brightline knows how to work a news cycle. The day after dissapointing April ridership numbers, Brightline announces that some track and signal construction has begun:

"Virgin Trains USA announced today that its team of builders has started construction on long-awaited tracks between West Palm Beach and Orlando International Airport.

Formerly known as Brightline, the privately owned passenger-rail company is beginning the expansion at the airport with the installation there of 3 miles of track, signals and related infrastructure and the development of 70 acres for a maintenance shop." ​https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0190521-gxapxfgkzzgahoc6phnccwhtu4-story.html


----------



## frequentflyer

chrsjrcj said:


> Well Brightline knows how to work a news cycle. The day after dissapointing April ridership numbers, Brightline announces that some track and signal construction has begun:
> 
> "Virgin Trains USA announced today that its team of builders has started construction on long-awaited tracks between West Palm Beach and Orlando International Airport.
> 
> Formerly known as Brightline, the privately owned passenger-rail company is beginning the expansion at the airport with the installation there of 3 miles of track, signals and related infrastructure and the development of 70 acres for a maintenance shop."​https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0190521-gxapxfgkzzgahoc6phnccwhtu4-story.html



One could call it being "media savvy". Few companies have it.


----------



## jis

Looks like the FECR grade crossing on a major highway in North Melbourne is getting replaced by a flyover. Work is proceeding apace on the flyover for the Pineda Causeway which connect I-95 to Patrick AFB.


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## John Bredin

Brightline is going to run "Havana Special Rum Train" excursions on Fridays and Saturdays June 14-20. It isn't cheap -- individual tickets $125, table seating tickets $140 -- but it comes with a fair amount of quality rum included. https://vinepair.com/booze-news/rum...-45729089&mc_cid=79d10a6b93&mc_eid=ff931ab262

The interesting thing to me is Brightline's promotion of the train outside the train travel & railfan markets. As the link tends to indicate, I received this article in an email on booze, not travel or railfanning.


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## John Bredin

Clicking through the article to Brightline's own website, the trips run from June 14 through the 29th.


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## frequentflyer

jis said:


> Looks like the FECR grade crossing on a major highway in North Melbourne is getting replaced by a flyover. Work is proceeding apace on the flyover for the Pineda Causeway which connect I-95 to Patrick AFB.



Expensive, I know but its the ultimate answer to grade crossing incidents.


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## me_little_me

frequentflyer said:


> Expensive, I know but its the ultimate answer to grade crossing incidents.


Never underestimate the stupidity of the stupid.


----------



## grover5995

Anderson said:


> Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not _entirely_ sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.
> 
> (Had the DRG&W _really _wanted to, they could probably have tried a train-off for the whole route at some point and Amtrak would have been in the same boat there. Ditto Southern, had they managed to simply "dump" the _Crescent_.)
> 
> I think part of the issue has been Amtrak not getting the funding to do it, and part was FEC's folks starting up the whole Brightline thing (which plausibly killed any interest in working with Amtrak).


Service between Chicago-Quad Cities-DesMoines-Omaha-Lincoln would be a nice corridor route, but would require upgrading much of Iowa Interstate tracks.


----------



## jis

Why Virgin Trains breaking ground in Orlando is good news for Tampa


https://floridapolitics.com/archive...king-ground-in-orlando-is-good-news-for-tampa


----------



## daybeers

On the actual ticket page, I found all tickets for all dates were $99 with an $8 fee, making each ticket $107.


----------



## jis

daybeers said:


> On the actual ticket page, I found all tickets for all dates were $99 with an $8 fee, making each ticket $107.



That is for the Havana Special.


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> That is for the Havana Special.


Yes, I know. I should have included this quote above my statement. See below:



John Bredin said:


> Brightline is going to run "Havana Special Rum Train" excursions on Fridays and Saturdays June 14-20. It isn't cheap -- individual tickets $125, table seating tickets $140 -- but it comes with a fair amount of quality rum included. https://vinepair.com/booze-news/rum-train-richard-branson-brightline/


On the actual ticket page, I found all tickets for all dates were $99 with an $8 fee, making each ticket $107.


----------



## jis

Interesting article in Railway Age about VT USA...

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/mind-the-widening-gap-amtrak/

I worry that articles like this resemble the elation of a person crossing a desert that has just seen a mirage. I would be in this mood after Virgin Trains USA manages to get the Los Angeles to Las Vegas thing up and running. Florida is a very unique set of circumstances give the FEC history there and proves nothing about the feasibility of anything outside of Florida using the VT USA model.

But in so far as it causes Amtrak management to start feeling a little uncomfortable seeing the marketing hype slides from VT USA mentioning many of the corridors that Amtrak ostensibly wants to develop too, so far so good. The customers of passenger rail may win out even if VT USA does not deliver on the entire hype itself.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> Interesting article in Railway Age about VT USA...
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/mind-the-widening-gap-amtrak/
> 
> I worry that articles like this resemble the elation of a person crossing a desert that has just seen a mirage. I would be in this mood after Virgin Trains USA manages to get the Los Angeles to Las Vegas thing up and running. Florida is a very unique set of circumstances give the FEC history there and proves nothing about the feasibility of anything outside of Florida using the VT USA model.
> 
> But in so far as it causes Amtrak management to start feeling a little uncomfortable seeing the marketing hype slides from VT USA mentioning many of the corridors that Amtrak ostensibly wants to develop too, so far so good. The customers of passenger rail may win out even if VT USA does not deliver on the entire hype itself.


I suspect some of this negative comparison will die down when Amtrak starts getting their new equipment running. That's most of the experience. Between the Acela 2s and the Siemens cars, the Amtrak experience will look very different in the next few years. Secondly, I think the only way VT gets in on these other corridors is if a state decides to put out their trains for bid, as VT would probably want a subsidy to make it work. It would probably have to be a completely clean sheet too (none of that akward partner bid that IP went into with Amtrak). I just don't see any of these other corridors bring profitable enough for VT to start on their own.


----------



## cirdan

bretton88 said:


> I suspect some of this negative comparison will die down when Amtrak starts getting their new equipment running. That's most of the experience. Between the Acela 2s and the Siemens cars, the Amtrak experience will look very different in the next few years. Secondly, I think the only way VT gets in on these other corridors is if a state decides to put out their trains for bid, as VT would probably want a subsidy to make it work. It would probably have to be a completely clean sheet too (none of that akward partner bid that IP went into with Amtrak). I just don't see any of these other corridors bring profitable enough for VT to start on their own.



Or maybe even Virgin going after existing corridor contracts as they come up for renewal and offering better terms than Amtrak?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Or maybe even Virgin going after existing corridor contracts as they come up for renewal and offering better terms than Amtrak?



I just spoke with a VT USA senior executive at the FECRS Annual Convention last week. He was quite clear that their plans currently do not include taking on any state contract. That is not their business model.

They apparently require a few things like at least 10 RT per day, significant control over dispatching, and real estate development opportunities at or close to the stations. They will look at about half a dozen potential beyond Las Vegas and Jacksonville. But realize that even Jacksonville is at least ten years away.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> I just spoke with a VT USA senior executive at the FECRS Annual Convention last week. He was quite clear that their plans currently do not include taking on any state contract. That is not their business model.
> 
> They apparently require a few things like at least 10 RT per day, significant control over dispatching, and real estate development opportunities at or close to the stations. They will look at about half a dozen potential beyond Las Vegas and Jacksonville. But realize that even Jacksonville is at least ten years away.


That's more in line with what I'd expect from them and rules out most existing Amtrak corridors.


----------



## Anthony V

Virgin Trains USA should consider starting service in Ohio's 3C corridor, as it fits their criteria of too long to drive, too short to fly, and there will be plenty of real estate opportunities for them in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati.


----------



## jis

Anthony V said:


> Virgin Trains USA should consider starting service in Ohio's 3C corridor, as it fits their criteria of too long to drive, too short to fly, and there will be plenty of real estate opportunities for them in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, and Cincinnati.



Maybe they will after they have established their Florida project to a state of stable profitability and started running the Las Vegas thing. Realistically I don’t see them taking on anything major beyond these until they have positive cashflows from these. 

The Ohio Corridors additionally do not even come remotely close to the Florida and Las Vegas - California Corridors, and it is not clear how they get the sort of dispatching control they require.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I just spoke with a VT USA senior executive at the FECRS Annual Convention last week. He was quite clear that their plans currently do not include taking on any state contract. That is not their business model.
> 
> They apparently require a few things like at least 10 RT per day, significant control over dispatching, and real estate development opportunities at or close to the stations. They will look at about half a dozen potential beyond Las Vegas and Jacksonville. But realize that even Jacksonville is at least ten years away.



Let's wait and see.

Virgin as a company, and especially its rail department, has flip flopped on questions of strategy before.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Let's wait and see.
> 
> Virgin as a company, and especially its rail department, has flip flopped on questions of strategy before.


But this is not the Virgin company that we know from the UK, either the Trains one or the Airline one. Branson has no control, small minority investor, and provider of name under contract for a period of time. The business model is completely different from that of Virgin Trains UK. This is not Virgin Rail Department. This is All Aboard Florida with a spanky new dba marketing name, still firmly owned by FECI. It still is a real estate operation with a railroad attached. I think many are missing that and juxtaposing whatever happened in the UK on this just because of the name. 

Of course no one can tell what will happen in the future, but all indications at present are that the US railfans are so elated by one maybe success of a passenger system that they are busily counting the chicken even before any eggs have been laid. Just IMHO of course. The only thing that is certain at present is the Florida operations and possibly the California/Nevada ones. Only those eggs have been laid so far.


----------



## VentureForth

frequentflyer said:


> Expensive, I know but its the ultimate answer to grade crossing incidents.


You'd like to think so. Someone could jump off the bridge onto the tracks, and it's still the train's fault.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Maybe they will after they have established their Florida project to a state of stable profitability and started running the Las Vegas thing. Realistically I don’t see them taking on anything major beyond these until they have positive cashflows from these.
> 
> The Ohio Corridors additionally do not even come remotely close to the Florida and Las Vegas - California Corridors, and it is not clear how they get the sort of dispatching control they require.



Let me be cynical here, and predict that at some time after FECI makes a fortune from real estate development adjacent to the stations, they'll all of a sudden find that actually operating the service isn't all that profitable and try to either dump the whole thing on to Amtrak or the state, or else try to extort subsidies directly to keep the service going. They are not exempt from the dynamics of high overhead and maintenance costs that apply to every other railroad operation in the world.

If running rail passenger service was profitable, we wouldn't have Amtrak and public-sector commuter operators doing it, it would be done by the private railroads.


----------



## Pere Flyer

MARC Rider said:


> Let me be cynical here, and predict that at some time after FECI makes a fortune from real estate development adjacent to the stations, they'll all of a sudden find that actually operating the service isn't all that profitable and try to either dump the whole thing on to Amtrak or the state, or else try to extort subsidies directly to keep the service going. They are not exempt from the dynamics of high overhead and maintenance costs that apply to every other railroad operation in the world.
> 
> If running rail passenger service was profitable, we wouldn't have Amtrak and public-sector commuter operators doing it, it would be done by the private railroads.



My thoughts since the first day of service. I predict that eventually, the real estate economic cycle (especially without Dodd-Frank) will put the rail operation in the hands of the State of Florida or the NRPC.


----------



## Anderson

Eh, there are cases (the Surfliners come to mind) where the operating picture is at least debatable, and at a presentation last month Amtrak Joe McHugh noted that the Hiawathas are quite close to profitability as well. So the picture is at least a little more complicated than is sometimes made out.


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## chrsjrcj

Brightline released their May numbers: https://emma.msrb.org/ES1275945-ES998481-ES1399922.pdf

85,740 passengers carried 
$1.7 million in revenue

If I am keeping track correctly, that is $20 per passenger which is down from $25 per passenger in April and March. Not too surprising considering the $5 fares they offered to celebrate MiamiCentral one weekend. 

I wonder how much that will rebound in June, considering they are offering lower fares (Summer season is slow), free companion tickets, and kids ride free.


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## MARC Rider

Anderson said:


> Eh, there are cases (the Surfliners come to mind) where the operating picture is at least debatable, and at a presentation last month Amtrak Joe McHugh noted that the Hiawathas are quite close to profitability as well. So the picture is at least a little more complicated than is sometimes made out.


"Profitability" is an extremely slippery term. That's why if you work in Hollywood, you make sure your agent gets you a cut of the gross, not a share of the profits. I think there's a term, "Hollywood accounting" that is related to that. The Surfliners and the Hiawathas may be in a position to not need a state subsidy (or maybe they're "profitable" _because_ of the state subsidy) but I find it hard to think that the revenues they generate from passengers cover all of their costs, including the infrastructure. They pay the host railroads for track slots, but as many have pointed out here, the host railroads believe that the rental rates are not sufficient to cover the costs.

Brightline/Virgin, on the other hand, has to pay the full cost for everything, because they own the whole shebang. My understanding was that they were going to cross-subsidize the operating costs with some of the revenues from the real estate development. So what are they going to do after they close their real estate deals? Are their projects going to have a long-term sustainable cash stream that can subsidize the train service? Are they going to cost-cut on the train service to the point that people won't want to ride the trains? Or has it been their plan all along to eventually off-load the whole thing on to the state or Amtrak or Tri-Rail, or whatever, and they'll just pocket the cash from the real estate deals and be on their merry way?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Okay, in the May ridership numbers it mentions that Virgin is looking at additional stations on the South Segment. In May's SFRTA board meeting, it was mentioned that Virgin is "looking aggressively at a station in Aventura." https://media.tri-rail.com/Files/Upload-Big/Preliminary_Board_Agenda_062819-cb.pdf (page 10)


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## Anderson

So, Ft. Lauderdale Airport is one location* and Aventura is another**. Both make a certain amount of sense to me.

*And one that I know I've been predicting for quite some time.
**A bit of a surprise but not really a shock to envision an additional stop on this portion. I would have expected that you'd have a stop on the northern portion.


----------



## jis

Rusty Roberts (VP Communication) is now consistently showing a Space Coast and a Treasure Coast stop in his presentations. We know that the Space Coast one will be located on VTUSA owned land in Cocoa-Rockledge. The exact location of the Treasure Coast stop is TBD at present


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> Okay, in the May ridership numbers it mentions that Virgin is looking at additional stations on the South Segment. In May's SFRTA board meeting, it was mentioned that Virgin is "looking aggressively at a station in Aventura." https://media.tri-rail.com/Files/Upload-Big/Preliminary_Board_Agenda_062819-cb.pdf (page 10)



How can one look aggressively? Sounds like something from The Godfather.


----------



## Anderson

Or the Star Wars prequels. "Aggressive negotiations?" "Negotiations with a lightsaber."

(One suspects that such might be more fruitful with Indian River County, come to think of it...)


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## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> So, Ft. Lauderdale Airport is one location* and Aventura is another**. Both make a certain amount of sense to me.
> 
> *And one that I know I've been predicting for quite some time.
> **A bit of a surprise but not really a shock to envision an additional stop on this portion. I would have expected that you'd have a stop on the northern portion.



They're going to keep adding stops until it's as slow as the Tri-Rail? OK - to be fair, the Tri-Rail has like 20 stops...


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## jis

Brightline has aspirations of running the Coastal Commuter Service in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, and that, if it comes to pass, will have substantial number of stops between Miami and West Palm Beach. They might choose to have multiple grades of express service like e.g. the Japanese do on the Tokaido Shinkansen. Just because there are stations does not mean every train has to stop at every one of them.

Incidentally, to balance things out with respect to the unbridled enthusiasm about Branson and VT USA, here is the other side of the coin as observed in the UK...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/truth-richard-branson-virgin-rail-profits

So eventually one may have to be ready to contribute some from ones pocket book to enrich Branson and Co's coffers.... 

As always the fundamental question should be - are we as a society coming out ahead through these investments, ahead enough to justify the expenditure, and not so much about whether the provider of the service is making some money in the process. We should monitor whether they are making so much as to reduce the ROI for the society at a large unacceptable levels, and if so how to fix that through governance. This is true irrespective of whether the money maker is private sector of for profit public sector company (Amtrak I am looking at you)


----------



## Anderson

Fair point, jis. I think there's a case to have an hourly (or close-to-hourly) express service with other trains making more stops (though potentially having 2-3 stopping patterns).

More to the point, I wonder how they're going to handle a mix of what I presume would be controlled-access platforms for "their service" and anything else for a commuter service...in particular, I can't see them wanting to pass on (for example) the F&B sales in the bigger stations, but I also can't think of any places in the US where I've seen controlled access to commuter rail platforms (the UK is another story entirely, of course). So that will be interesting to watch.

Also interesting will be how their station planning and development process at those intermediate stops meshes with possible developments around those stations, and which stations get built out fully (a la WPB/FLL), which ones don't, and which ones might see a "limited service" model applied (e.g. there's a cafe but it is only operated from opening until 0900 or 1000, not unlike some concession cafes at other stations...Oshawa in Ontario comes to mind).

As to the philosophy...I'll be honest, I don't have a problem with a tycoon getting a cut if the service provided is solid. I would rather throw SRB a buck each time I ride the train and get a solid product than get a cheap designed-by-committee result. Fair disclosure, I'm a big fan of most of Virgin's travel products (I'm _still_ cheesed about the loss of Virgin America...that was the first airline I ever actually _liked_ flying on and looked forward to using).


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## John Bredin

Metra used to have controlled access on the Electric line, inherited from Illinois Central's commuter operation. They dropped it in the early 2000s, partly because maintaining or upgrading '60s electronics in the turnstiles was a pain, partly because Electric passengers felt discriminated against. No other Metra line had turnstiles, and every line but the Electric has at least some stations with wide-open access to the neighborhood.


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## jis

A mix of controlled access stations in an otherwise tap on - tap off POP system is not unusual at all, and is quite workable. At the controlled access stations the barrier gates serve as the tap function, and users have no difficulty understanding that.

A recent prime example that I used was the Amsterdam system. For example the the major in city stations (Centraal, Sloterdijk, Amstel) including those shared with the Metro are barrier gated with shared gated area (Amstel), while stations like Schiphol are not. They just have tap on/tap off posts. Interestingly even within the barrier gates in shared gated area stations, there are tap posts for transferring from NS (Dutch Railways) to Metro or from NS to private lines etc. The cost of forgetting to tap off from NS can be hefty (E20). Forgetting to tap off from OV (Metro, Bus, Tram, Ferry in the Amsterdam area) is less (E4).


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> A mix of controlled access stations in an otherwise tap on - tap off POP system is not unusual at all, and is quite workable. At the controlled access stations the barrier gates serve as the tap function, and users have no difficulty understanding that.
> 
> A recent prime example that I used was the Amsterdam system. For example the the major in city stations (Centraal, Sloterdijk, Amstel) including those shared with the Metro are barrier gated with shared gated area (Amstel), while stations like Schiphol are not. They just have tap on/tap off posts. Interestingly even within the barrier gates in shared gated area stations, there are tap posts for transferring from NS (Dutch Railways) to Metro or from NS to private lines etc. The cost of forgetting to tap off from NS can be hefty (E20). Forgetting to tap off from OV (Metro, Bus, Tram, Ferry in the Amsterdam area) is less (E4).



Similar in London. For example when you ride the DLR to London City Airport there are no barriers there so you need to remember to tap out. 

I've also seen many confused tourists trying to work out how to tap out on a bus.

Generally, the more uniform a system, the less likely people are to get it wrong and the more user-friendly overall.

Switzerland is now rolling out a country-wide GPS based system that is just an app, so no need to buy or carry any additional cards or hardware. You click in using the app at the start of your journey and click out at the end and the system uses the GPS data to work out where you've been and how much to charge you. You probably can't get much simpler than that. Unless maybe you can replace the tapping in by some auto-detection that won't auto trigger just because you're standing too near or driving behind a bus.


----------



## jis

Interesting thing about Holland is that the OV Chipkarte is the fare instrument that works across the country and across multiple service providers. So much so that people by mistake carry on into Belgium or Germany only to discover that the card does not work at exit and they have to pay additional fare, if they are not already caught on the train by the Belgian or German ticket examiners.

So unless you have a personalized OV Card with a monthly pass or some such, or certain time and zone limited tourist anonymous cards, you have to tap on and off for all public transport using the same card. It is not possible to install any passes on an anonymous card, and in general it is hard for short term visitors to obtain a personal card, since it involves delivery by post to an address in Holland.

Bringing this back to Brightline, I am sure they will be able to figure out something similar, since both the SFRTA and CFRC passengers are used to the concept of RFID fare cards and tap on and tap off required to use them already. Ideally, Brightline, CFRC and SFRTA should work out a single fare card that can be used across the systems, even though it might require tap in and out to transfer fom one system to the other at transfer stations.


----------



## jis

Hans627 said:


> Being a newbie to this forum I've been reading with interest about the Florida train system being built by Brightline. We spend some time in FL and have taken the AutoTrain there several times.
> 
> A few questions:
> I assume Brightline is running today. How's it doing?


According to their claim they are ahead of their plans. Currently they are running only between Miami Central and West Palm Beach with a stop on the way at Fort Lauderdale. If you scan up this thread you will find extensive discussion of their plans and some detailed analysis of their performance so far. They just started construction on the West Palm Beach to Orlaqndo International Airport segment. Projected completion date and inauguration of service is sometime in 2022.


> Is Brightline viable for the longterm?


People who are investing in it certainly think so. OTOH there are some skeptics too as is always the case. Only time will tell.


> When is the station at WDW to be built?


My guess is 2023 or later. At present the exact location of the station is yet to be determined and funding is yet to be secured for constructing the tracks and station beyond Orlando International Airport.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Incidentally, to balance things out with respect to the unbridled enthusiasm about Branson and VT USA, here is the other side of the coin as observed in the UK...
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/truth-richard-branson-virgin-rail-profits
> 
> So eventually one may have to be ready to contribute some from ones pocket book to enrich Branson and Co's coffers....
> 
> As always the fundamental question should be - are we as a society coming out ahead through these investments, ahead enough to justify the expenditure, and not so much about whether the provider of the service is making some money in the process. We should monitor whether they are making so much as to reduce the ROI for the society at a large unacceptable levels, and if so how to fix that through governance. This is true irrespective of whether the money maker is private sector of for profit public sector company (Amtrak I am looking at you)



I think the point of the article was that Mr. Branson is making his big bucks on the basis of receiving subsidies from the UK taxpayers. If that's the case, why not just re-nationalize the whole enterprise? I spent several weeks riding British Rail in the mid 1980s, and the service was perfectly good, so I'm not sure what social benefit is gained by private ownership if the private owners are going to get rick on taxpayer subsidies. 

This is obviously not an issue with Mr. Branson's relation with Brightline, as I am not aware that any government subsidies are involved in the operation. 

As far as Amtrak goes, I suspect that the authorization language requiring it to be "profitable" means that it should be able to operate without the need of a US government subsidy, not that it should generate such profits that the CEO can be paid tens of millions of dollars per year and the US government can fund the Pentagon and Social Security/Medicare from the profits.


----------



## jis

For now the government support comes in the form of foregoing some amount of tax revenues by allowing the use of tax free bonds, and some local taxpayer contribution towards enhancing grade crossings, which in and of itself is not a bad thing provided in the future this does not become a failed enterprise that needs to be endlessly rescued by the government far in excess of value it brings to society. As I have said before, public expenditure may still be worthwhile if the net ROI to the society is positive, i.e. total economic activity generated far outstrips the money spent on it. Unfortunately, the US is singularly bad at taking such into adequate consideration, and takes a much narrower view of P&L, ignoring value of something to the society as a whole.

It is at present too early to tell whether Mr. Branson and Co. will come with open arms to collect tax money to pay for their incomes or not. I am hoping, and currently believe they won't. But some of the recent over reach language gives me a bit of a pause. Still the Florida operations I think can more than support itself. I am not so sure about some of their more exotic forward looking visions.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> They're going to keep adding stops until it's as slow as the Tri-Rail? OK - to be fair, the Tri-Rail has like 20 stops...



I hope that if they add many more stops, that they will also modify the schedule so there will be different stopping patterns


----------



## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> I think the point of the article was that Mr. Branson is making his big bucks on the basis of receiving subsidies from the UK taxpayers. If that's the case, why not just re-nationalize the whole enterprise? I spent several weeks riding British Rail in the mid 1980s, and the service was perfectly good, so I'm not sure what social benefit is gained by private ownership if the private owners are going to get rick on taxpayer subsidies.



The thinking is, that either the government can run the trains themselves, or they can pay somebody to do it for them. Of course that person will want to make a profit on it so on the surface that looks like paying more money to get the same service. But the further thinking is that people in the private sector are better at being innovative than the public sector, and so that extra cost will somehow translate into extra benefits. Whether or not that is actually true probably depends on the example you are looking at. There are rail franchises in the Uk that have absolutely not improved since BR days, but there are also franchises who have done amazing things.


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> The thinking is, that either the government can run the trains themselves, or they can pay somebody to do it for them. Of course that person will want to make a profit on it so on the surface that looks like paying more money to get the same service. But the further thinking is that people in the private sector are better at being innovative than the public sector, and so that extra cost will somehow translate into extra benefits. Whether or not that is actually true probably depends on the example you are looking at. There are rail franchises in the Uk that have absolutely not improved since BR days, but there are also franchises who have done amazing things.


And private owners can squeeze their contractors, employees and customers unlike the politicians who would give anything to anybody for a vote.


----------



## chrsjrcj

According to the Miami Herald, Hollywood and Boca Raton have been identified as candidate cities for future Virgin stations.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article232461917.html


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## jis

And then there is Fort Lauderdale Airport lurking in the wings, in a manner of speaking.


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## troo troo tcrane

Is there a good route map? I assume Miami Central is where Overtown metro rail station is? 

The FLL airport stop will be a huuuuuge draw. Trirail takes too long.


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## VentureForth

Doesn't the track pass the opposite side of the airport from the terminal?


----------



## cirdan

troo troo tcrane said:


> Is there a good route map? I assume Miami Central is where Overtown metro rail station is?
> 
> The FLL airport stop will be a huuuuuge draw. Trirail takes too long.



People mover maybe? Airports love them.


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## cirdan

Actually, looking at Google maps, the situation isn't that bad. Some of the parking lots appear to be on the other side of the tracks even.

The site looks pretty constricted though. I guess a second track would be required plus at least one platform, plus a station building. I'm sure that can all be fitted in somehow if some imagination is applied, but it's not going to be easy.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Doesn't the track pass the opposite side of the airport from the terminal?



FECR passes right next to the easternmost terminal building. GoogleMaps is you friend. Try it. [emoji57]


----------



## troo troo tcrane

cirdan said:


> People mover maybe? Airports love them.



The Brightline FLL station is already connected to the airport by people mover? I didn't know. No one talks about it here. 

I will check it out.


----------



## jis

troo troo tcrane said:


> The Brightline FLL station is already connected to the airport by people mover? I didn't know. No one talks about it here.
> 
> I will check it out.



No. The Brightline Fort Lauderdale station is nowhere near the airport. That is why no one talks about people mover. A shuttle van maybe, but I don’t think even that is there at present.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> FECR passes right next to the easternmost terminal building. GoogleMaps is you friend. Try it. [emoji57]


Thanks smart axx. I was driving and couldn't at the moment.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Thanks smart axx. I was driving and couldn't at the moment.



[emoji51] And we are to believe that you were posting on AU while driving


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## VentureForth

Yes, a short post with speech to text at a red light is not that hard.


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## troo troo tcrane

jis said:


> No. The Brightline Fort Lauderdale station is nowhere near the airport. That is why no one talks about people mover. A shuttle van maybe, but I don’t think even that is there at present.



Took a quick look and doesn't look like it is something I can use for now. Once they add an airport connection we will see.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Yes, a short post with speech to text at a red light is not that hard.



Maybe it is better to spend a little time on looking things up before shooting things off at red lights then? [emoji51]


----------



## chrsjrcj

> For June, Virgin carried 80,094 passengers and generated total revenue of approximately $1.6 million, including $400,000 in ancillary revenue. Average ticket fare for the month was $15.12.



https://www.thenextmiami.com/virgin...oca-raton-expected-to-be-operational-in-2020/

Also, stations at the PortMiami, Aventura, and Boca Raton announced for a 2020 opening (lol)


----------



## jis

I just keep wondering what their operating ratio is and hopefully it is trending in the correct direction. Just revenues don't tell the whole story.


----------



## neroden

All railroad operations are economies of scale businesses. They won't make any money, net, until they're significantly larger. Orlando might do it, but I'm not sure; Tampa should do it.


----------



## jis

Virgin Trains construction progress report:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Anderson

Going off of the June results, YTD ridership is 481,320. This is _probably_ on course to end up right around one million for the year if nothing changes (bearing in mind the ridership bump from the Christmas specials, etc.).

Revenue is harder to peg, but seems to be in the ballpark of $11m (what I get when adding the monthly numbers up), probably give or take a quarter million dollars due to room for rounding to lean heavily one way or another. My guess is that puts them on course to land somewhere in the range of $21-24m for the year if the overall trend holds, depending on pricing strategy and promotions.

As an observation, _Heat_ games seem to be responsible for 2-4% of Brightline's ridership in-season (given that they could pack post-game specials pretty full last season), so it will be interesting to see if that continues/grows at all next season.


----------



## jis

VTUSA looking for Bond sale for the L:as Vegas - California Project

https://finance-commerce.com/2019/0...-california-to-vegas-rail/?platform=hootsuite

Meanwhile, Brightline Phase II construction begins in earnest in Florida...

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...ightline-working-rail-fort-pierce/1874238001/


----------



## neroden

Looking at the status of construction, I'm actually surprised they think it'll take 36 months. On the new route, they've already finished utility relocation (which is the usual giant wildcard); on the old route, they're already sending out the rail trains to rehab the track; at Orlando, they've started the construction of the elevated platforms to stay above sea level. It may open sooner than 36 months; for once I think it's a conservative estimate.

As for Las Vegas-Victorville, Victorville is the problem. I'm surprised they're going forward with the bonds without figuring out how to finance the connection of Victorville to LA.


----------



## jis

Rails being positioned for the construction of the second track on the FECR ROW for Brightline....


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Looking at the status of construction, I'm actually surprised they think it'll take 36 months. On the new route, they've already finished utility relocation (which is the usual giant wildcard); on the old route, they're already sending out the rail trains to rehab the track; at Orlando, they've started the construction of the elevated platforms to stay above sea level. It may open sooner than 36 months; for once I think it's a conservative estimate.
> 
> As for Las Vegas-Victorville, Victorville is the problem. I'm surprised they're going forward with the bonds without figuring out how to finance the connection of Victorville to LA.


I think there's been a general view that Victorville is an acceptable endpoint. _I do not share this view_ but even in its initial phases DesertXpress was looking at that pairing as being sufficient. I think a routing over to Lancaster/Palmdale would "cut it" (presuming they could get access on Metrolink tracks into Los Angeles pending CAHSR), as would something that would get them into San Bernadino (particularly if accompanied by improvements on the San Bernadino-Los Angeles run). But who knows?


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> As for Las Vegas-Victorville, Victorville is the problem. I'm surprised they're going forward with the bonds without figuring out how to finance the connection of Victorville to LA.



My understanding was that DesertXpress don't / did't want to build all the way into Los Angeles because they are / were hoping to use the California High Speed line rather than duplicate it.

This sounds like an inherently sensible decison.

With the further development of the California project now somewhat in doubt, or at least shifted to a more distant completion date, I'm surprised this hasn't had a knock-on effect on DesertXpress .


----------



## Ziv

Wouldn't extending the route a bit further west to Palmdale make DesertXpress a lot more popular? It has been years since I spent any time in LA but it seems like Palmdale would give DX riders (and the DX train operators) a lot more transit options than Victorville alone. And Palmdale to LA Union Station is already in place, I think.
I think Palmdale to LA Union Station is rated for 110 mph if memory serves, but it doesn't seem like the Antelope Valley Line gets up to that speed for long.
Or is the cost of the Victorville to Palmdale section so high that it won't be worth it? Money seems to be the limiting factor in so many transit plans so it would be surprising if it wasn't the case here, as well. It is "only" 50 miles or so, but I imagine those would be pretty expensive miles of track to build if there aren't any already in place, or if they are rated for slower speeds. There are tracks of some sort from Sheep Creek Road to Palmdale paralleling Palmdale Road, but getting from Victorville to Sheep Creek might be problematic.
On edit: I was wrong about the 110 mph rating for the Metrolink portion of the route. I mis-read a CAHSR map. My apologies. I thought of removing it entirely, but figured explaining my error made more sense, since we discuss it below.




cirdan said:


> My understanding was that DesertXpress don't / did't want to build all the way into Los Angeles because they are / were hoping to use the California High Speed line rather than duplicate it.
> 
> This sounds like an inherently sensible decison.
> 
> With the further development of the California project now somewhat in doubt, or at least shifted to a more distant completion date, I'm surprised this hasn't had a knock-on effect on DesertXpress .


----------



## jis

Ziv said:


> I think Palmdale to LA Union Station is rated for 110 mph if memory serves, but it doesn't seem like the Antelope Valley Line gets up to that speed for long.


Really? I think this requires a citation to validate this claim - err ...thought.


----------



## Ziv

A CAHSR map link claimed that part of the rail network (Palmdale to LAUS) was Metrolink trackage rated at least partially at 110 mph. Or so it appeared. I am on my phone so will have to add the link on edit. Whether that portion is rated at 110 mph or 79, it still seems like DesertXpress would be better off if the Las Vegas to Victorville route had tracks they could use between Victorville and Palmdale, if they weren't prohibitively expensive. Which they probably would be. 


jis said:


> Really? I think this requires a citation to validate this claim - err ...thought.


----------



## jis

Ziv said:


> A CAHSR map link claimed that part of the rail network (Palmdale to LAUS) was Metrolink trackage rated at least partially at 110 mph. Or so it appeared. I am on my phone so will have to add the link on edit. Whether that portion is rated at 110 mph or 79, it still seems like DesertXpress would be better off if the Las Vegas to Victorville route had tracks they could use between Victorville and Palmdale, if they weren't prohibitively expensive. Which they probably would be.


I agree about the desirability of using Metrolink by VTUSA from Palmdale to LAX. I just don;t believe Palmdale to LAX is signaled for anything faster than 79 mph, and if one has traveled on that trackage it will become obvious that very little of it will ever be 110mph capable even if upgraded and resignaled.

VTUSA has actually mentioned their intention to build tracks to connect to Palmdale at some point. Once their updated EIS becomes available, the picture will become clearer.


----------



## Ziv

You are correct about it being rated fo speeds up to 79 mph. I took a second look at the map and it clearly showed that 110 mph was a possible upgrade for the Metrolink tracks if the CAHSR nears completion. My error. Sorry for injecting incorrect info into the conversation!


jis said:


> I agree about the desirability of using Metrolink by VTUSA from Palmdale to LAX. I just don;t believe Palmdale to LAX is signaled for anything faster than 79 mph, and if one has traveled on that trackage it will become obvious that very little of it will ever be 110mph capable even if upgraded and resignaled.
> 
> VTUSA has actually mentioned their intention to build tracks to connect to Palmdale at some point. Once their updated EIS becomes available, the picture will become clearer.


----------



## jis

No worries, we all mistakenly post something from memory that turns out to be not quite so. I have done it many times. That is why these conversations here are so important.


----------



## jis

Construction of significant new intercity 125mph trackage begins.Target in service date is early 2022.

This is the trackage of VTUSA along SR 528 (Beachline) between Orlando International Airport and Cocoa.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/site-work-begins-on-sr-528-for-virgin-train-system


----------



## frequentflyer

When will the Victorville-LAS run be operational?


----------



## jis

frequentflyer said:


> When will the Victorville-LAS run be operational?


No one knows at present.


----------



## West4th

Construction is moving along


----------



## jis

https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakem...-train-travel-is-here-with-virgin-trains-usa/


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## jis

We have heard and read a lot about the Brightline/VTUSA Station at Orlando Airport. The station is closely integrated with the new upcoming Terminal C, the Phase I of which is scheduled to open in 2021, a few months before Brightline service gets to Orlando.

Here is a short video about MCO Terminal C Phase I (on Facebook):


----------



## cirdan

Quite besides the project itself being exciting, that is one awesome piece of 3D animation rendering.


----------



## dogbert617

Speaking of the talk about Vegas-LA area train service on the last page(and it'd be nice if say that got to at least Palmdale), has anyone ever tried to ride the Amtrak Thruway connection(not sure who operates that, exactly) between McCarran Airport(leaves there around 9:30pm) to Kingman, AZ(arrives about 1am), then boarded the SW Chief slightly afterward to go east from Kingman? Myself, I've always wondered how doable of a thruway bus connection, that was to get to the SW Chief. I'm not so sure I'd want to do this the other way, since it gets to the airport at about 3am in the morning! Thanks, to anyone who could fill me in about that thruway bus connection. If I don't hear any responses about the Kingman bus connection here, I may repost this question as a different thread.


----------



## jis

City of Palmdale shows support for Virgin/Brightline rail project

http://theavtimes.com/2019/08/15/city-of-palmdale-shows-support-for-virgin-brightline-rail-project/


----------



## Anderson

Just as an aside, "SanBag" is one of the more amusing acronyms I've run across.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Just as an aside, "SanBag" is one of the more amusing acronyms I've run across.


A cute one I have come across in the UK is GOBLIN for Gospel Oak - Barking LINe, a circumferential suburban line operated by London Overground in the Northeast of London


----------



## grover5995

bretton88 said:


> I suspect some of this negative comparison will die down when Amtrak starts getting their new equipment running. That's most of the experience. Between the Acela 2s and the Siemens cars, the Amtrak experience will look very different in the next few years. Secondly, I think the only way VT gets in on these other corridors is if a state decides to put out their trains for bid, as VT would probably want a subsidy to make it work. It would probably have to be a completely clean sheet too (none of that akward partner bid that IP went into with Amtrak). I just don't see any of these other corridors bring profitable enough for VT to start on their own.



Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha Corridor could be a good candidate for fast, frequent service with Brightline equipment. Tracks are in good shape with few curves which would allow speeds up to 110mph north of suburban territory with diesel or electric power. North Shore line used to run 90 miles in 90 minutes as recently as 1962 with modified streetcars.


----------



## Anderson

I think your practical need for VT to get into something involving a UK-style franchise in the US is as follows:
-Long-term contract (7-30 years, depending);
-Limited room for the state to demand lots of or;
-Either a single private-sector host railroad or some sort of more permissive state contract with all parties involved.


----------



## Qapla

They had a spot on our local TV news the other night. Seems some of the people who are moving into a fairly new neighborhoods along the Interstate where VT is clearing ROW for their tracks are complaining. They are not happy that their "tree buffer" between them and the Interstate is being removed.

Mind you, that ROW has been designated for use by rail for way longer than any of those neighborhoods have existed. Didn't they read their land use contracts before signing on the dotted line? They will just have to live with it or move - they are not going to stop the rail now that ground has been broken.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I think your practical need for VT to get into something involving a UK-style franchise in the US is as follows:
> -Long-term contract (7-30 years, depending);
> -Limited room for the state to demand lots of or;
> -Either a single private-sector host railroad or some sort of more permissive state contract with all parties involved.



If the tracks belong to a private sector railroad, some better arrangement would be required than is currently the case with Amtrak. Such as some financial incentive for the host railroad to actually ensure schedules are respected. 

I also especially agree with your second point. One of the biggest problems affecting Amtrak is lack of long term certainty. Technically the budget can be cut at any time, or any number of new demands and restrictions can be imposed, virtually overnight. One advantage of the UK type of franchising is that you have a reliable framework of funding for the duration and the rules also remain unchanged during that period. Of course there is still exposure to unpredictables, such as maybe a massive economic recession leading to loss of ridership. But at least you are fairly resiilient to unpredictables of the type caused directly by people in power, be they motivated by malice or merely by incompetence.


----------



## chrsjrcj

July 2019 vs July 2018:
Ridership - 83,741 +61% (52,162)
Revenue - $1.7 million +73% ($1 million)

It also looks like ticket prices will dramatically increase on October 1st, likely in anticipation of snow bird season.

https://emma.msrb.org/ER1248477-ER976238-ER1377491.pdf


----------



## jis

Meanwhile on various possibilities between Tri-Rail and VTUSA beyond Tri-Rail eventually making it to MiamiCentral...

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article229002739.html

And as for more immediate additional stations...

https://www.thenextmiami.com/virgin...year-end-2019-aventura-portmiami-boca-coming/


----------



## jis

Patrick Goddard, President of Brightline/VTUSA discussing the future

https://miami.cbslocal.com/video/41...ard-joins-us-in-studio/#.XWBGLV71kgw.facebook


----------



## Palmetto

Good P.R. And Elliot likes trains!


----------



## Anderson

I think we've been expecting PortMiami as a stop for some time (in conjunction with the cruise port, if nothing else). Given the track configuration, I do wonder how that will be run (especially with the existing equipment constraints).


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> I think we've been expecting PortMiami as a stop for some time (in conjunction with the cruise port, if nothing else). Given the track configuration, I do wonder how that will be run (especially with the existing equipment constraints).


I suspect that the "Cruise Connector"s will be a service that is separate from the regular clock face corridor service, and will be explicitly timed to meet Virgin Cruise arrivals and departures.

There is ample space on the pier to install a high level platform along one of the tracks, possibly the one closest to the main road onto the pier. They'll probably have to use an army of golf carts to transfer folks from the train to the ship, specially those with mobility issues.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> I suspect that the "Cruise Connector"s will be a service that is separate from the regular clock face corridor service, and will be explicitly timed to meet Virgin Cruise arrivals and departures.
> 
> There is ample space on the pier to install a high level platform along one of the tracks, possibly the one closest to the main road onto the pier. They'll probably have to use an army of golf carts to transfer folks from the train to the ship, specially those with mobility issues.


With VTUSA buying only 3 additional trainsets for the start of the Orlando service in 2022, and with 30 minute departure schedules every morning in South florida, I find it highly unlikely that the port service will be anything more than a few trains each day to the port, if that. At least until 2025 if they decide to buy more trainsets than the 3. They plan to run at most 8 RT's to Orlando at the start of Orlando service I have been told. Based on the backlog of orders at Siemens, this limited service (compared to the 16RT service to Orlando they advertised previously) will be in place for the foreseeable future. Either VTUSA gives up their desire to be commuter rail for South Florida, or they focus on the intercity travel market to Orlando which by necessity will include the Port of Miami service. They can't have it both ways. Their new order includes 7 locomotives and 20 coaches. That makes 8 trainsets total with 5 coach cars each. So far, no cafe cars have been ordered. I think VTUSA is being very cautious on spending money for more rolling stock based on their ridership numbers so far which seem to have leveled off at 80-90k per month.

As far as the location of the platform at the port, I doubt they would use the existing container loading tracks. That is an industrial area not suitable for passengers. I suspect they will build their own track and platform north of there close to the cruise ship terminal buildings. That will also minimize any impact on FECR operations at the port.


----------



## AGM.12

If they relinquish the commuter option I am sure this will open the way for Tri Rail service on this route.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Interesting misleading blurb in today's Austin American- Real Estatesman about a Couple being Married on a 79 MPH " High Speed" Brightline Train between Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.


----------



## jis

AGM.12 said:


> If they relinquish the commuter option I am sure this will open the way for Tri Rail service on this route.


It is quite unlikely that VTUSA will relinquish anything without taking their pound of flesh out of it. Remember they own 50% of the dispatching and track management company. They indirectly get to set the trackage charges and get a cut from it.

With them setting up all these new stations in that relatively short segment, I find it hard to believe that they would entirely relinquish the commuter option. Indeed even the Miami WPB service is essentially a commuter operation in the broader context of the voerall service possibilities. It is sort of like New York to Trenton with two to five stops, like the NJT outer zone commuter trains.


----------



## Anderson

I thought they were supposed to have ten sets for the Orlando service (eight sets being the bare minimum needed for hourly service from Miami to Orlando, with the presumption of one spare "just in case")?

Of course, seeing the mention of 8x/day to Orlando, that seems doable with eight sets. In their shoes I'd probably want a ninth set for spare coverage/flexibility, but I can see eight working.

As to cafe space, in Virgin's shoes I'd probably be looking to make do with a more aggressive "snack cart" service.

One issue I see with this situation is that the train equipment is, pardon the phrase, rather a fart in a hurricane as far as the overall capex goes. A five-car trainset with two locomotives is probably...$15m for the cars and maybe $20m for the locomotives* whereas the underlying construction has run several billion dollars overall.

On the commuter front, I think that's still an open question. A 32x/day commuter run over an 80-mile corridor at $15/train-mile would kick out $28m/yr in track access fees. For reference, I believe that MARC pays something like $26/mile. But that might also come with complications for dispatch priorities and so on, to say nothing of comparative ticket prices. So while a deal is clearly desirable for both sides here, the form it might take is very much TBD.

*The order prices I've seen hover between $7-11m/locomotive.


----------



## Brian_tampa

i saw the number of trainsets spelled out in the last PAB prospectus. not sure why they aren't adding 5 as originally proposed. at the April FDFC meeting in Orlando I asked one of the brightline engineers/construction managers about this. he explained the 8RT service as the initial service with ramp up over time to 16RT each day. no timeline was given for that but I assume they want to see how the ridership is??

I also read 3 or 4 years ago that the Siemens contract for the initial 5 trainsets plus service agreement was around $400M. 
Edit- that info was on an EB5 visa investment web site. I think part of that amount was a loan from Siemens at that time. also I think this is also mentioned in the first successful PAB documents under the contracts links in the 2017 prospectus.


----------



## Anderson

Taking a stab at guessing the portions of the cost, the original five sets (four cars plus two locomotives...say, $32m/set for $3m/car plus $10m/locomotive) "should" have cost somewhere around $160m. Even "aiming high" that might have been $200m ($40m/set), which feels high. Of course, if that also comes with an all-inclusive service agreement covering something like 20 years (not an unreasonable life cycle on the locomotive side of things) that also feels like a less crazy deal. $80m/set for four-car trainsets without an included maintenance contract would be criminally bad handling.


----------



## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Interesting misleading blurb in today's Austin American- Real Estatesman about a Couple being Married on a 79 MPH " High Speed" Brightline Train between Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.


Hey, compared to the speed of the Acela Express between New Rochelle and New Haven, 79 mph _*is*_ "high Speed!"


----------



## Brian_tampa

Just saw this on another railfan website,

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4858273

Seems that there are some cancelled trains on the Hiawatha service possibly due to issues with the new Siemens Charger locomotives. Nothing specific yet but it points to spare parts availability. But is interesting how Brightline rarely cancels trains. Perhaps their full maintenance and service agreement with Siemens helps keep them running?

https://new.siemens.com/us/en/products/mobility/rail-solutions/services/maintenance-services.html

Perhaps spending more upfront to guarantee reliability actually pays off down the road for their customers? This explains the $400M contract Brightline signed with Siemens 3 years ago to purchase, maintain, and service their trainsets. Too bad Amtrak and the states could not do similar.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Last message on the TrainOrders site says locomotive wasn't the problem. Most of the posts seem to be guessing about what's happening, so I wouldn't take it seriously.


----------



## chrsjrcj

This appears to be the worst Brightline vs car incident to date (at least for Brightline)

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...iLgq4Nt_4ClQQjXZCCQrAZ27y5p9bpFOR6jdJFM0g6iCc


----------



## Qapla

From the article:

"At least one person was killed after a Brightline train struck a car that tried to cross the tracks while the gates were down in Oakland Park Thursday morning, officials said.

The car, a Maserati, was trying to move over the tracks when the crossing gates were down, officials said. ...

Witness tells me car attempted to go around downed railroad crossing arms to beat train at Dixie Hwy and NE 34 Ct in Oakland Park when @GoBrightline hit the vehicle. @Oaklandparkfire & @browardsheriff are scene now. Florida East Coast train was also passing by just after @nbc6"

Too bad the title of the news article is not something like "Man dies while trying to beat train when crossarms were down" instead of "At Least 1 Dead After Train Hits Car in Oakland Park" which makes it sound like the train is at fault


----------



## VentureForth

I'm getting bored at people complaining about headlines saying "Train Hits Car." Semantically, it is accurate. The train DID hit the car. If the car hit the train, it would have happened along the side of the train.

It's an efficient headline.

I take don't think the general public thinks in any way that it's the trains fault. Now, politicians are another story. We all know common sense doesn't work with politicians.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Qapla said:


> From the article:
> 
> "At least one person was killed after a Brightline train struck a car that tried to cross the tracks while the gates were down in Oakland Park Thursday morning, officials said.
> 
> The car, a Maserati, was trying to move over the tracks when the crossing gates were down, officials said. ...
> 
> Witness tells me car attempted to go around downed railroad crossing arms to beat train at Dixie Hwy and NE 34 Ct in Oakland Park when @GoBrightline hit the vehicle. @Oaklandparkfire & @browardsheriff are scene now. Florida East Coast train was also passing by just after @nbc6"
> 
> Too bad the title of the news article is not something like "Man dies while trying to beat train when crossarms were down" instead of "At Least 1 Dead After Train Hits Car in Oakland Park" which makes it sound like the train is at fault




Your headlines sounds a little long. The second headline is accurate. It doesn't place any blame on the train. Sounds like the driver paid the ultimate price.


----------



## Qapla

VentureForth said:


> I'm getting bored at people complaining about headlines saying "Train Hits Car." Semantically, it is accurate. The train DID hit the car. If the car hit the train, it would have happened along the side of the train.



It may be technically correct but it conveys the wrong intent. It is fine with me if you get bored as long as you allow me to not like headlines that seem to indict the wrong party - most headlines about train crashes are written in a way that place the blame on the train - especially to those people who only read headlines ...



MikefromCrete said:


> Your headlines sounds a little long.



Yes, it is a little long ... perhaps this would be better - "Driver dies trying to beat train"


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Qapla said:


> It may be technically correct but it conveys the wrong intent. It is fine with me if you get bored as long as you allow me to not like headlines that seem to indict the wrong party - most headlines about train crashes are written in a way that place the blame on the train - especially to those people who only read headlines ...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is a little long ... perhaps this would be better - "Driver dies trying to beat train"


The issue with that is that it is not immediately for sure that the driver was trying to beat the train; for example there could have been a crossing malfunction or the car could have broken down on the tracks before the gates went down. It is likely that the driver was trying beat the train, but that is not necessarily known for a fact, whereas the car getting hit by the train is. I understand your concern about the blame, as there are certainly some people who think the train is the issue in these sort of collisions, but that doesn't mean headlines should include potentially false information.


----------



## VentureForth

Qapla said:


> It may be technically correct but it conveys the wrong intent. It is fine with me if you get bored as long as you allow me to not like headlines that seem to indict the wrong party



It's only that someone mentions this Every. Single. Time.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Qapla said:


> It may be technically correct but it conveys the wrong intent. It is fine with me if you get bored as long as you allow me to not like headlines that seem to indict the wrong party - most headlines about train crashes are written in a way that place the blame on the train - especially to those people who only read headlines ...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is a little long ... perhaps this would be better - "Driver dies trying to beat train"




That's a better headline.


----------



## Ziv

The Maserati driver saw the slow freight train and thought he could beat it, and did. But he didn't see the fast Bright Rail train and got hammered. 
It is going to take a couple years for people in South Florida to see enough of these stories for it to really sink in. And maybe then, maybe, the amount of fatalities will drop a little. 
But there will always be people who are going to try to beat the train. One of the Miami news reports had a sensible guy repeating that people should, "Never try to beat a train!" I hope that message sinks in. Soon.


----------



## Qapla

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The issue with that is that it is not immediately for sure that the driver was trying to beat the train; for example there could have been a crossing malfunction or the car could have broken down on the tracks before the gates went down. It is likely that the driver was trying beat the train, but that is not necessarily known for a fact



Actually, in this case, it WAS known since there were eyewitnesses that were interviewed for the TV 

Regardless, since we all feel differently about headlines ... I will not continue to discuss this headline - feel free to carry on without me in this thread


----------



## AGM.12

Correct me if I am wrong, but were not the crossing gates and other items supposed to be designed to stop such antics as trying to drive around them?


----------



## jis

That crossing does have four quadrant gates that were working. The driver managed to get around it anyway. Apparently he had quite a sense of invincibility. [emoji57]


----------



## jis

So while Branson has been busy splashing his Virgin Trains brand in the US using a 2% investment in Brightline, he has lost his last franchise in the UK. The West Coast franchise went to West Coast Partners consisting of FirstGroup and Trenitalia replacing Virgin Trains. The Stagecoach, Virgin, SNCF bid was rejected. or rather they were not allowed to bid, because of some hanky-panky with pensions that Stagecoach was caught in. Stagecoach was to be the majority partner in that group, with Virgin holding a minority share and SNCF bringing in the HSR operating experience required in the ternder.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...tium-to-replace-virgin-on-west-coast-mainline


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## JRR

jis said:


> That crossing does have four quadrant gates that were working. The driver managed to get around it anyway. Apparently he had quite a sense of invincibility. [emoji57]



Gates can’t stop people from doing stupid things. My wife and I were facing North on Dixie Hey in Boca Raton at the intersection with Palmetto Park when the gates came down for the crossing at Palmetto Park. While we were stopped waiting to make a left turn onto Palmetto Park, a car came down Dixie headed South and turned right onto Palmetto and crashed right through the gate. He just barely cleared the tracks when the Brightline, headed north, streaked by- didn’t miss him by more than a foot or two. Surprisingly, the gates did not snag into pieces but just bounced up.

I don’t know what one can do to prevent such stupidity others than eliminate on grade crossings.


----------



## Anderson

JRR said:


> Gates can’t stop people from doing stupid things. My wife and I were facing North on Dixie Hey in Boca Raton at the intersection with Palmetto Park when the gates came down for the crossing at Palmetto Park. While we were stopped waiting to make a left turn onto Palmetto Park, a car came down Dixie headed South and turned right onto Palmetto and crashed right through the gate. He just barely cleared the tracks when the Brightline, headed north, streaked by- didn’t miss him by more than a foot or two. Surprisingly, the gates did not snag into pieces but just bounced up.
> 
> I don’t know what one can do to prevent such stupidity others than eliminate on grade crossings.



Honestly, if the press consistently took a more aggressive negative line towards folks doing the stupid stuff it might help...but that's about it.

(The Japanese attitude of "If you do something stupid, you pay for the inconvenience you cause everyone else" might be nice as well, but I know _that_ won't fly here.)


----------



## Qapla

There is a guy who is campaigning to get gates/cross arms replaced by posts that rise from the grade all the way across the road so cars cannot drive around them.


----------



## Anderson

It is a great pity that he passed, since having Harlan Ellison voice a crossing system that berates anyone trying to go around the gates would be awesome (at least, based on the AI he voiced in Babylon 5).
https://www.reddit.com/r/babylon5/comments/8uqaeo/for_those_who_dont_know_harlan_ellison_was_the/


----------



## cirdan

JRR said:


> I don’t know what one can do to prevent such stupidity others than eliminate on grade crossings.



I think in Russia they have solid barriers that are raised out of the ground hydraulically. They are ramp shaped so any car trapped on the crossing can still drive off but you cannot easily drive on.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> There is a guy who is campaigning to get gates/cross arms replaced by posts that rise from the grade all the way across the road so cars cannot drive around them.


I crossed a drawbridge the day which not only had gates to keep motorists from driving into the river, but also had a fullsized jersey barrier on wheels that swung out from the side of the road to completely block the roadway.


----------



## Ziv

Sometimes I think that if it wasn't for the inconvenience it would cause to others, we ought to just let people stumble to a Darwinian demise. Trying to beat a train by going around the crossing guard arms is simply a criminally stupid thing to do. We can build increasingly sophisticated crossing block systems, but the cost to install and the inconvenience they engender are a cost that is imposed on everyone by a minority of people who are doing things that are too stupid for words.
Sorry, rant over.





MARC Rider said:


> I crossed a drawbridge the day which not only had gates to keep motorists from driving into the river, but also had a fullsized jersey barrier on wheels that swung out from the side of the road to completely block the roadway.


----------



## jis

Construction work on the FECR ROW starts up...



> Preliminary work on Virgin Trains USA’s higher-speed rail is expected to begin Sept. 23 in Jensen Beach and Sebastian, according to Stuart officials who met for the first time Tuesday with engineers for the project.
> 
> The work schedule is the first formal plan presented to Martin County and Stuart officials.



https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...n-preliminary-work-treasure-coast/2356949001/


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## cirdan

I thought preliminary work, as in ground clearing and moving utilities had already begun some time ago.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I thought preliminary work, as in ground clearing and moving utilities had already begun some time ago.


That was between Cocoa and Orlando for constructing a new ROW along Beachline. This is about what is happening along the FECR ROW between West Palm Beach and Cocoa, and specifically in Martin and Indian River Counties.


----------



## hastybob

Checking the Florida Traffic cams, I found that construction can be seen along Fl528 on the two camera between I-95 and US 1. 

https://fl511.com/map#Camera


----------



## jis

hastybob said:


> Checking the Florida Traffic cams, I found that construction can be seen along Fl528 on the two camera between I-95 and US 1.
> 
> https://fl511.com/map#Camera



I just drove down 528 to MCO. There is clearing work going on at various spots all along the route.

Most of the clearing work so far is between Cocoa and Rt 520 intersection. There is also a long stretch by the recently rebuilt Rt 528 intersection with the Innovation Way and International Corporate Park Blvd.


----------



## chrsjrcj

hastybob said:


> Checking the Florida Traffic cams, I found that construction can be seen along Fl528 on the two camera between I-95 and US 1.
> 
> https://fl511.com/map#Camera



It's a shame those are static images, or that would make railfanning a lot easier.  

Nevertheless, it will make watching construction progress a lot easier for those of us not in the area. Good idea.


----------



## cirdan

hastybob said:


> Checking the Florida Traffic cams, I found that construction can be seen along Fl528 on the two camera between I-95 and US 1.
> 
> https://fl511.com/map#Camera



oh cool. Now I'm going to be watching those webcams every day and getting no work done.


----------



## chrsjrcj

August 2019 (2018):

Ridership: 74,312 (54,574 +36%)
Revenue: $1.5 million ($0.9 million +62%)

https://emma.msrb.org/ER1255369-ER981040-ER1382707.pdf


----------



## chrsjrcj

I do not have an article, but Miami-Dade County today agreed to pay for the Aventura station. One additional requirement is that any development on that site must be 100% workforce housing. Miami-Dade County will own the land, so Virgin does not have to be the developer of that housing per se. 

It was interesting to see the concerns of the county commissioners. For those that opposed the project, concerns included future access for Tri-Rail (recall that Brightline ended any negotiations for Coastal Link two years ago), the cost to ride the train, and the fact that county tax dollars earmarked for transit are going to a private company and not Metrorail or Metrobus expansion. I mostly agree with the concerns, and believe that this development (in addition to the Boca Raton station) is more or less the final nail in the coffin for Coastal Link. 

The vote actually failed at first, but an amendment was added to require any development on the property is 100% workforce housing which ended up swaying enough commissioners to pass. The whole meeting was broadcast on Facebook, although the last 45 minutes may be the more interesting part.


----------



## West4th

*Cruise passengers on track to ride Brightline trains to PortMiami with county station *

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article236355013.html#storylink=cpy

Plans advanced Thursday for a Brightline train station for cruise passengers at PortMiami, with Miami-Dade moving closer to approving a depot connecting the world’s busiest cruise dock to a for-profit railroad with plans to extend as far north as Orlando.

The County Commission’s Ports committee on Thursday endorsed a draft deal between the company and Miami-Dade, which involves $5.2 million in public money for a $15.4 million facility. Brightline, the for-profit rail company that’s planning to bring the Virgin brand to its trains next year, would build the seaside station and make it available to passengers for all cruise companies. Virgin, a separate company run by Richard Branson, plans to bring its first cruise ship to PortMiami in April.

The trains would run about two miles on existing cargo tracks to Brightline’s MiamiCentral station in downtown Miami, where passengers could then board the company’s express trains running to West Palm Beach. The company, a subsidiary of the Fortress Investment Group conglomerate, plans to expand the for-profit rail line to Orlando. It’s a route PortMiami sees as a new funnel for cruise passengers from the South Florida market.

“They can hand over their bags at the Fort Lauderdale station, the West Palm Beach station, the Orlando station, and the passenger won’t see his or her bags until he or she gets into their cabin,” said Juan Kuryla, the county’s port director. 

While Miami-Dade would put up money to help build the 20,500-square-foot building, the draft agreement calls for Brightline to generate millions more in rent and fees to the port. The port would collect a $2 fee for each train passenger arriving at the new station, and Brightline agreed to make up the difference if those payments don’t total $7 million after five years. From there, the fees continue and minimum amounts increase over the next 30 years. A county memo said the port should expect to collect $49 million from the fees and rent, charged at $5.75 a foot to start.

The agreement authorizes Mayor Carlos Gimenez to negotiate a final deal with the new Fortress entity, Virgin Trains USA. That contract then would come back to the commission for a final vote.

It would be the third infusion of county dollars for a Brightline station. In 2015, Miami-Dade, Miami and Tri-Rail agreed to pay about $69 million to build a Tri-Rail platform at Brightline’s Miami Central station in downtown Miami. Brightline hasn’t completed the federally required safety requirements to allow Tri-Rail rains to begin using that service.

On Oct. 11, Miami-Dade commissioners held an emergency meeting to approve spending $76 million in transit funds on a new Brightline station connecting to the Aventura Mall. The company agreed to charge Aventura passengers 65 percent of the Fort Lauderdale fare, making a one-way ticket just under $10.

No prices were discussed for the PortMiami rides. Jose Gonzalez, a top executive at Fortress subsidiary Florida East Coast Industries, said the company hopes to open the port station by the end of 2020. The initial plan is to run two trains per day, meaning four crossings through downtown Miami.

“For downtown, it wouldn’t be much delay,” Gonzalez said. “Our crossings take less than 60 seconds. It’s not like a freight train.”


----------



## Anderson

The sausage here is fascinating on Aventura. As to PortMiami, $7m translates into 3.5m pax at $2/each (given that this only covers arrivals, not departures). I question whether that's feasible, though I also wouldn't be surprised if Brightline was willing to just pencil in a bit of cash to make up the guarantee.


----------



## leemell

Virgin/Brighline has been talking/negotiating with Las Vegas and just said that they have agreed to a station near the Strip, that Virgin engineers have completed 30% of the LV/Victorville design and have put a contractor under contract.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Anderson said:


> The sausage here is fascinating on Aventura. As to PortMiami, $7m translates into 3.5m pax at $2/each (given that this only covers arrivals, not departures). I question whether that's feasible, though I also wouldn't be surprised if Brightline was willing to just pencil in a bit of cash to make up the guarantee.



I believe the agreement also says that Brightline will pay that even if passenger counts don't generate that fees. Honestly, the PortMiami deal seems to be a pretty decent deal for the county (better than Aventura, in my opinion). They get a direct passenger rail line to the Port, plus the ability to generate income from that. The only downside might be that incoming cruise passengers won't stay in Miami, and instead might hop on a train to Orlando, but that will probably be offset with the patronage that the original Orlando/Tampa to downtown Miami line will bring.


----------



## Anderson

chrsjrcj said:


> I believe the agreement also says that Brightline will pay that even if passenger counts don't generate that fees. Honestly, the PortMiami deal seems to be a pretty decent deal for the county (better than Aventura, in my opinion). They get a direct passenger rail line to the Port, plus the ability to generate income from that. The only downside might be that incoming cruise passengers won't stay in Miami, and instead might hop on a train to Orlando, but that will probably be offset with the patronage that the original Orlando/Tampa to downtown Miami line will bring.


From what I can tell, it does stipulate that. My comment was that I think Brightline may be presuming that they'll simply have to cough up some cash on that front (since accounting for a year or two of ramp-up that ridership number probably suggests they'd need to be closing in on a million pax/year at PortMiami to make the number, something I'm comfortable expressing skepticism about given their current/planned fleet situation).

Edit: To clarify, at the existing level you would basically need to average 2000 pax/day at PortMiami to make the numbers. The current trains hold 240 pax, so at a 75% load factor that would be 11 trains/day into PortMiami. I'm not sure where you find the equipment for that without seriously fouling up service to/from MiamiCentral unless those trains are going to go into MiamiCentral, back up, and then head to PortMiami. It is, of course, possible they'll come up with some dedicated services...but there's a lot of stuff I can see working for WPB-PortMiami that gets strained if you're running those trains up to Orlando.


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## Brian_tampa

New double track lift bridge proposed for the St Lucie River crossing in Stuart

http://veronews.com/2019/10/24/virgin-rail-seeks-local-support-for-costly-new-bridge/

This is very interesting news. Virgin is asking for local government support to apply for federal grants to replace the existing single track draw bridge with a new double track lift bridge. It will have 18ft clearance when closed. I assume this means a 2-3% grade on the approaches, or about 1000ft at most of raised track bed to the south. I am not sure if that will impact the furthest north road crossing in downtown Stuart. North of the river crossing, it is on a curve with no public road crossing for some distance. Would they locate the lift bridge further north of the present draw bridge to reduce the required grade? Without a doubt, FECR has already approved this and has specified the maximum grade they will allow.


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## railiner

The article cited some politician's opinion's, that Virgin Trains/Brightline originally proposed funding the entire project with private funds, and now are asking for government help. They believe that Virgin had that in mind from the beginning, to later campaign for public funding...

I am wondering... if they don't get government support, will they go ahead and fund it themselve's, anyway?


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## leemell

CA iBank approved $3.25B bonds, largest in banks history for Virgin/Xpresswest construction. https://www.reviewjournal.com/busin...ect-gets-approval-for-3-25b-in-bonds-1877582/


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## chrsjrcj

railiner said:


> The article cited some politician's opinion's, that Virgin Trains/Brightline originally proposed funding the entire project with private funds, and now are asking for government help. They believe that Virgin had that in mind from the beginning, to later campaign for public funding...
> 
> I am wondering... if they don't get government support, will they go ahead and fund it themselve's, anyway?



American capitalism at its finest.


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## leemell

From the article: "Neither Nevada or California will be on the hook for any of the money tied to the bonds."


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## Anderson

railiner said:


> The article cited some politician's opinion's, that Virgin Trains/Brightline originally proposed funding the entire project with private funds, and now are asking for government help. They believe that Virgin had that in mind from the beginning, to later campaign for public funding...
> 
> I am wondering... if they don't get government support, will they go ahead and fund it themselve's, anyway?


Well, I think they made a run at RRIF funding initially before chucking that over all of the EIS crap.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Well, I think they made a run at RRIF funding initially before chucking that over all of the EIS crap.


True. They abandoned the RRIF application, but not completely. Last I heard is that the RRIF could still be applied for but highly unlikely, unless the bond market collapses. I think they didn't go the RRIF route because that is a very political animal. Look at the stillborn proposal for the Powder River Coal route made by DM&E 15 years ago that relied on an RRIF loan. Rochester, MN blocked it with help from their friends in Washington. DesertXpress was also blocked due to their proposal to buy Chinese trainsets with the RRIF money. FECI/Brightline was smart in going with 100% Buy American compliance even when they didn't have to. They know how Washington works and have people who can navigate that arena. PABs have no conditions attached and much easier to get approval to sell them from the state financial development agencies it seems.

Edit: Brian Mast (Treasure Coast Representative) is good friends with Mark Meadows (R-NC). Any RRIF application could have been blocked by Meadows as he had power in the House up until this year. Meadows was very much against the use of PABs as well, but he could not stop that for some reason.


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## jis

Brightline did complete an EIS for Miami to Orlando. It is the most informative public document on the layout of the route that is available.


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## Brian_tampa

Yep, going through the NEPA process is one of the requirements to qualify for a RRIF loan. Brightline went as far as getting the FEIS and Record of Decision from the FRA. As I understand it, Brightline is constructing phase 2 based on obtaining all of the required environmental (DEP, EPA, WMD, etc..) and USCG permits. They are following the mitigation recommendations spelled out in the FEIS/ROD as well. They plan on refreshing/updating the NEPA documents from 2010 for the old HSR project for phase 3 work between Tampa and Disney World along I-4. I suppose they will need a new EIS for the SR417 route and along the CFRC/OUC railroad ROWs to get to MCO. But that last section might result in not needing a full study, similar to phase 1, since its planned route is on or parallel to existing railroads.


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## Brian_tampa

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...ays-replace-st-lucie-river-bridge/2456664001/

The proposed bridge will cost $100M and take two years to construct. It will create 7ft of additional clearance for boats when closed and allow for two boats to pass under the longer span. The bridge can be completed after phase 2 is complete. It will take 1 or 2 years alone to get funding most likely. I see this being completed in 2024 or so...


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## jis

Stations at Cocoa in Space Coast and Stuart in Treasure Coast gets closer to finalization in plans. 

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...n-cocoa-and-leaning-toward-stuart/4092824002/


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## railiner

I cross the FEC in Stuart 3 times a week, and IIRC, there already is a platform and canopy there...not sure about a depot. If I remember, on Monday I'll try to get a photo of it and post here....


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## railiner

So it looks like what I thought was a platform and canopy, is actually a parking lot along the



railway...


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## chrsjrcj

One interesting thing to note from the September 2019 report, the Vrgin rebranding has been pushed from the end of this year to Q2 2020. I wonder why there is a delay.


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## erierail

railiner said:


> So it looks like what I thought was a platform and canopy, is actually a parking lot along theView attachment 15396
> View attachment 15397
> View attachment 15398
> 
> railway...


So that is not the new station, correct.? No platform.


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## railiner

No...I just thought it might be when casually seeing it from the Colorado crossing...the parking lot is outside the right of way fence...I think it's for a park


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## jis

There is no new station. It is not even certain that there will be a new station there.


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## daybeers

chrsjrcj said:


> One interesting thing to note from the September 2019 report, the Vrgin rebranding has been pushed from the end of this year to Q2 2020. I wonder why there is a delay.


Maybe they want to get a solid bit of construction to Orlando done first. I was reading on another forum there may be delays. Does anyone know how much they've gotten done so far?


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## jis

They started construction four months back. How much do you suppose can be done in four months in a project scheduled for 36-40 months? [emoji57]. Say about 10%?

They have graded the base for the maintenance facility at OIA. They are in the process of clearing the RoW along SR528 and starting base work on the viaduct across the St. Johns River. They have dropped ribbon rails along the FEC RoW for the second track in places between WPB andFort Pierce, and in Indian River County.


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## Brian_tampa

Well, there is always the construction schedule to follow. This is from the last PAB offering memorandum from April 2019. This should answer any questions as to what gets built next, etc.. Of course this is the best we have and subject to conditions outside of VTUSA's control (such as weather, lawsuits, markets, etc..). The file is in PDF format and you might need to zoom in 200% to be able to read the print!


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## MikefromCrete

erierail said:


> So that is not the new station, correct.? No platform.


 
How could it be the new station? The station project was just announced. Even Brightline can't move that fast.


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## Anderson

MikefromCrete said:


> How could it be the new station? The station project was just announced. Even Brightline can't move that fast.


I think the question was initially whether this was likely a station location (potentially being an old station facility that could be partly repurposed).


----------



## west point

A question. If passengers are going to check bags directly to cruise ships will that mean Brightline will need some baggage cars? Can imagine that cruise ship trains will have many more passenger cars ? How long is the proposed port platform scheduled to be ?


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## railiner

west point said:


> A question. If passengers are going to check bags directly to cruise ships will that mean Brightline will need some baggage cars? Can imagine that cruise ship trains will have many more passenger cars ? How long is the proposed port platform scheduled to be ?


That’s a good question. If they were only going to provide for self-help carryon baggage, they could remove a few seats to place bag racks.
But for full service checked baggage, they would need a secure space or baggage car...


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## jis

They currently have checked baggage service without any baggage car. I don’t know exactly where they carry the checked baggage.


----------



## VentureForth

Without going back through over 2000 posts, anyone know of potential stops on Jupiter or Melbourne?


----------



## jis

No stop planned at Melbourne at present. The Brevard County stop will be at Cocoa.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> No stop planned at Melbourne at present. The Brevard County stop will be at Cocoa.


That would come in handy for cruiser’s sailing from Port Canaveral, but not so good for those flying from Melbourne, which does have a few commercial flights...


----------



## jis

But it will still be good for the vast majority of folks in Brevard County who fly out of Orlando. I live in Melbourne and have never flown in or out of Melbourne. Mostly you can get to Atlanta and RDU once or twice a day. Recently AA has started a flight on certain days and season to Washington National.


----------



## VentureForth

American and Delta have begun to add more and more services to smaller markets. Brunswick, GA and Hilton Head Island, SC have increased their flights.

I would honestly rather see Amtrak come down the FEC from JAX to MIA. Doubt now they would get a slot from them with Virgin running. But Amtrak would be a better choice for more intermediate stops and keep Virgin a true Premium.


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## Anderson

One Mile at a Time did a review of Brightline:
https://onemileatatime.com/brightline-train-review/


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> American and Delta have begun to add more and more services to smaller markets. Brunswick, GA and Hilton Head Island, SC have increased their flights.
> 
> I would honestly rather see Amtrak come down the FEC from JAX to MIA. Doubt now they would get a slot from them with Virgin running. But Amtrak would be a better choice for more intermediate stops and keep Virgin a true Premium.



Who is going to fund and build those one train a day Amtrak stations? Primary funding will have to come from FECR, Amtrak or Brightline. Cities might then throw in additional funding. It is only after Brightline has established hourly service that cities have been willing to pitch in. Unless the political alignments change drastically at state level there will be no help beyond tax free bonds.


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## Anderson

Brightline is now advertising "Train-to-Port" services:



The FAQ features one of the best questions I've seen in a while: "How do I redeem my mimosa?"


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Who is going to fund and build those one train a day Amtrak stations? Primary funding will have to come from FECR, Amtrak or Brightline. Cities might then throw in additional funding. It is only after Brightline has established hourly service that cities have been willing to pitch in. Unless the political alignments change drastically at state level there will be no help beyond tax free bonds.


I think you _might_ be able to get sufficient local support (and possibly some federal grants) to make some Amshacks happen, but the odds are pretty good that Brightline will have two words for such stations on their line which aren't "Merry Christmas". Something along the lines of the Norfolk station (which I see cost $3.75m) _might_ be acceptable to all parties (presuming it could be upgraded for Brightline's boarding/use practices). That's still quite a bit of money if you're looking at, say. a half-dozen additional stops ($22.5m in 2012-ish dollars, probably somewhere in the range of $25-30m now) but not utterly insane. Under a friendly administration, I could see Amtrak putting in for a RRIF loan for part of that on the basis of their ridership projections from the Silver Service PIP (or as part of a reorganization of the Silver Service...if Brightline gets to Tampa I suspect Amtrak is going to take about a 100k hit to overall ridership down there).


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> They currently have checked baggage service without any baggage car. I don’t know exactly where they carry the checked baggage.



Tongue in cheek question here.

Do they even carry the checked baggage?

I know that in Switzerland for example, there is a checked baggage service but you need to check your bags the day before you travel and they go in a van by road.

The few trains that still have baggage cars or baggage areas actually use them for bicycles, which need to be stowed there by the passengers themselves.


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## JRR

cirdan said:


> Tongue in cheek question here.
> 
> Do they even carry the checked baggage?
> 
> I know that in Switzerland for example, there is a checked baggage service but you need to check your bags the day before you travel and they go in a van by road.
> 
> The few trains that still have baggage cars or baggage areas actually use them for bicycles, which need to be stowed there by the passengers themselves.



On the Rocky Mountaineer, the bags go by truck!


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## west point

There is a problem with Amtrak using Brightline stations. Bright line station platforms when on FEC mainline tracks are about 1 foot back from Brightline train cars. Brightline cars have an extendable walkway that closes this gap. Amtrak would need some kind of bridging plate from vestibule to station platforms for every car vestibule ! 
Believe that any Brightline station off FEC mainlines do not have this gap ?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Tongue in cheek question here.
> 
> Do they even carry the checked baggage?
> 
> I know that in Switzerland for example, there is a checked baggage service but you need to check your bags the day before you travel and they go in a van by road.
> 
> The few trains that still have baggage cars or baggage areas actually use them for bicycles, which need to be stowed there by the passengers themselves.



Brightline accepts checked baggage upto 15 mins before departure and delivers them within 10 mins of arrival. So they certainly carry checked baggage. They are much better than Amtrak in handling them.


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## daybeers

jis said:


> Brightline accepts checked baggage upto 15 mins before departure and delivers them within 10 mins of arrival. So they certainly carry checked baggage. They are much better than Amtrak in handling them.


Where do they put the bags on the train?


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline accepts checked baggage upto 15 mins before departure and delivers them within 10 mins of arrival. So they certainly carry checked baggage. They are much better than Amtrak in handling them.


Yeah. A friend rode with me on Brightline one day, and then a few days later was quite bemused at the Amtrak staff at ORL refusing to take my bags within half an hour of train departure (forcing me into a trainside check from a conductor who rolled his eyes at the station staff) even though the train was running about 10-15 minutes behind on the way in (so it was over half an hour until the train got in). He commented quite frankly that Amtrak "didn't have its act together".


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## NES28

west point said:


> There is a problem with Amtrak using Brightline stations. Bright line station platforms when on FEC mainline tracks are about 1 foot back from Brightline train cars. Brightline cars have an extendable walkway that closes this gap. Amtrak would need some kind of bridging plate from vestibule to station platforms for every car vestibule !
> Believe that any Brightline station off FEC mainlines do not have this gap ?



Amtrak does use bridgeplates at high level platforms at various stations. Certainly a lot less crazy than building your own, poorly-located stations for 2 daily trains. Miami Central would be a great terminal.


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## jis

I think hell might freeze over before Amtrak uses MiamiCentral. They haven’t even been able to use MIC at the Airport yet in five years, which has a platform dedicated for Amtrak service. MiamiCentral at present has no platform suitable for Amtrak service given the operating plans of Brightline and TriRail.


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## jis

NES28 said:


> Amtrak does use bridgeplates at high level platforms at various stations. Certainly a lot less crazy than building your own, poorly-located stations for 2 daily trains. Miami Central would be a great terminal.



Amtrak uses bridge plates at Oklahoma City for Superliners on Superliner level platforms too. 

It is certainly not an insurmountable problem. 

Also gap between platform and train is certainly almost as large at places like Metropark, specially on track 4, and currently no bridge plates are used there.


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## railiner

JRR said:


> On the Rocky Mountaineer, the bags go by truck!


On the Alaska RR, there is a baggage car, but when large cruise ship groups ride, they usually use a truck(s) to take the checked bags directly to/from the ships...


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## chrsjrcj

There is a crew only area at the b-end of coach 4. I believe that is where the luggage carts are placed.


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## railiner

chrsjrcj said:


> There is a crew only area at the b-end of coach 4. I believe that is where the luggage carts are placed.


I am not familiar with Brightline consist’s...is “coach 4” at the end of the train, or is it in the middle, possibly blocking passenger pass-through?


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## chrsjrcj

Coach 4 is at the north end. Coach 1 (Select) is at the south end. The b end of the coach is the end without the bathroom. On both coach 1 and 4 the b end is closest to the locomotive. The b end on coach 2 and 3 face each other and are in the middle of the trainset (with walk through access).


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## pennyk

November 10th editorial in Sun Sentinel: Brightline's expansion threatens affordabale, accessible commuter rail



> South Florida needs coastal commuter rail service more than additional Brightline stations. The company’s expansion must allow for it, but the odds are not looking good.
> 
> Brightline’s expansion is gaining speed. The company — rebranding as Virgin Trains USA — soon will have agreements for stations in Boca Raton and Aventura. Work on a PortMiami station will begin next year. The company also wants a station at Fort Lauderdale’s international airport. It’s talking with five other Broward cities about stations and land, too.



https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinio...0191110-mljtto2knnaa5nifi2b2shdpbq-story.html


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## jis

It is not Brightline expansion, it is the very existence of Brightline and the underlying contracts between FECR and Brightline that impacts Tri-Rail Coastal. Brightline has the first right of refusal on any passenger service on FECR trackage, and will almost certainly ask for additional infrastructure to handle frequent slow stopping commuter trains to keep them from impacting the higher speed service. This has been a well known fact for three years now, so it is kind of strange for people to suddenly start talking about it. I guess they were not paying attention when it happened.

There is also the added pesky issue that Tri-Rail will require separate platform tracks from Brightline and stations which will be served by both Brightline and Tri-Rail due to platform height differences - so more cost that Brightline will not bear I am sure.

BTW, here is another vaguely related article... regarding the issue of gentrification - poorer people getting displaced due to construction of more expensive properties along a corridor with improving transportation infrastructure.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/preserving-affordability-along-floridas-brightline-rail-corridor


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## Pere Flyer

jis said:


> Tri-Rail will require separate platform tracks from Brightline and stations which will be served by both Brightline and Tri-Rail due to platform height differences - so more cost that Brightline will not bear I am sure.


It also sounds like a good reason for Tri-Rail to convert to high level equipment.
This situation demonstrates the difference between adding passenger service to a freight line and adding service to an existing passenger line. Where a freight RR’s infrastructure requests might be outlandish (see UP’s response to a daily SL), a passenger RR’s are likely required to maintain current service to those whom the additional trains will serve. From my uninformed vantage point it looks like the status quo will result in local service expansion done right.


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## chrsjrcj

I rode Tri-Rail yesterday, and on one trip I believe I witnessed around 6 or 7 people who needed to use the accessible ramp to board/detrain. This adds some time as the train must be appropriately spotted on the platform, plus the conductor must secure the ramp in addition to other duties. In one case, a group with a wheelchair, likely riding for the first time, were not standing in the correct spot for boarding which added even more dwell time. 

Ideally, Tri-Rail would use level boarding, but it would require modifications to all stations and make their recently acquired Hyundai-Rotem cars obsolete (I personally think the days of the Bombardier cars are numbered, sadly). 

Supposedly, Brightline left room at their existing stations (and are expected to leave room at the new Boca and Aventura stations) for future Tri-Rail service.


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## Brian_tampa

The GOAA (Orlando airport) monthly board meeting agenda for tomorrow has an agenda item of interest to us who follow Brightline/Virgin. Item Y is an amendment to the Rail Line Easement Agreement that extends the completion date out to April 2029. See attached agenda document on page 63. Here is the Issue:

_The Rail Company desires to defer the construction of a portion of the rail project, which includes a third set of rail tracks through the rail station building, and a second set of tracks between the rail station building and the vehicle maintenance facility. The Rail Company requests that the Aviation Authority amend the Temporary Construction License to be extended for an additional four (4) year period, specifically to allow Rail Company to complete these deferred components of the rail project. Rail Company indicates that it will be able to operate its Rail Transportation Business upon opening without the deferred infrastructure and it is not currently planning any reduction in operations as a result of deferring the infrastructure.
Rail Company has agreed to fund any additional Aviation Authority construction oversight costs associated with an extended timeframe for the deferred scope._

My best guess is this is linked to the extended period of ongoing negotiations for the ROW lease agreements with FDOT and CFX (I-4 and SR417 respectively). I can imagine there are certain construction issues that can't be overcome easily when planning to build a rail line through two active road expansion projects. The I-4 Ultimate project will not be completed until after 2025 for the section west of Sand Lake Rd. out to US 27. This is due to funding not being available from FDOT until 2021 or so. The SR417 project has yet to be designed so that is also 3-5 years away from completion.

I think all parties might have concluded it is not possible to effectively build the rail project until the road projects are mostly underway or completed. The 4 year extension would give them the time to build phase 3 to Tampa between 2025 and 2029. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

EDIT: I forgot about the planned toll express lanes to be built along I-4 in Hillsborough County between downtown Tampa to east of Plant City. The proposed design will require a section of single track around Plant City as the ROW is not wide enough there. This additional project just adds to the complexity of construction scheduling and design integration of the various projects.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> There is also the added pesky issue that Tri-Rail will require separate platform tracks from Brightline and stations which will be served by both Brightline and Tri-Rail due to platform height differences - so more cost that Brightline will not bear I am sure.



It's maybe not quite as bad as all that.

Brightline has gated platforms and seeing Tri-Rail has a different fares structure, you wouldn't want people buying the cheaper ticket and then boarding the more expensive service, so some separation of platforms and platform access will be necessary, regardless of whether the trains and platforms are actually compatible.


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## cocojacoby

I always wondered why Brightline went with high-level platforms when everything else in Florida is low level. How much money would they have saved if they went this route? Stations would be cheaper to construct and those expensive long freight bypasses would have been eliminated. The one foot gap extensions would have been adequate to allow operation of both freight and passenger trains through low-platform stations. Tri-Rail could have used the same station platforms and there would be no need for double platform stations.


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## railiner

It’s too bad that the Tri-Rail and Brightline routes couldn't have been “swapped”...
That way, the better located FEC route would be closer for transit use, while Brightline’s regional service wouldn’t matter so much, to travelers.
I suppose that FEC’s route is more valuable, from a real estate aspect, so there’s no chance of that easily happening...


----------



## jamess

cocojacoby said:


> I always wondered why Brightline went with high-level platforms when everything else in Florida is low level. How much money would they have saved if they went this route? Stations would be cheaper to construct and those expensive long freight bypasses would have been eliminated. The one foot gap extensions would have been adequate to allow operation of both freight and passenger trains through low-platform stations. Tri-Rail could have used the same station platforms and there would be no need for double platform stations.



Id argue that marketing is to play. High level trains looks more modern and fancy.


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## chrsjrcj

cocojacoby said:


> I always wondered why Brightline went with high-level platforms when everything else in Florida is low level. How much money would they have saved if they went this route? Stations would be cheaper to construct and those expensive long freight bypasses would have been eliminated. The one foot gap extensions would have been adequate to allow operation of both freight and passenger trains through low-platform stations. Tri-Rail could have used the same station platforms and there would be no need for double platform stations.



I rarely see freight trains use the bypass now, I think it was mainly constructed as a bypass around actual station construction and the occasional wideload. I don't know the costs of constructing a high level platform vs a low level platform, but the high level platforms are far more accessible to seniors/people with disabilities than low level platforms. Even general boarding is far faster than having to climb up steps. 

As far as Tri-Rail compatibility, I maintain the belief that Brightline wants to operate Coastal Link and have no intention to allow Tri-Rail on their property other than MiamCentral (which Tri-Rail help pay for).


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## Brian_tampa

I have heard of FECR trains using the bypass if the station tracks have trains on each track. But that isn't common at all. I think the original stated purpose was for high/wide load usage (as well as for during construction of the stations). The Boca Raton (very) preliminary design drawing I saw (it was on a local Boca or Broward news website last week) appears to show just one station track with platforms on either side - leaving the other track available for high/wide loads and as a bypass when trains are at the station. I didn't see an overhead pedestrian bridge to get to the island platform, however. I don't remember if there are universal crossovers north and south of the Boca raton station site that would allow for operational efficiencies.

Also, with high level boarding every door can open unlike most Amtrak trains where the number of open doors is limited due to the number of attendants (and due to safety reasons requiring attendants at each open door to assist passengers up/down). Having all doors open also makes boarding quicker.


----------



## cocojacoby

chrsjrcj said:


> As far as Tri-Rail compatibility, I maintain the belief that Brightline wants to operate Coastal Link and have no intention to allow Tri-Rail on their property other than MiamCentral (which Tri-Rail help pay for).



And how are they going to get there?


----------



## cocojacoby

Brian_tampa said:


> I have heard of FECR trains using the bypass if the station tracks have trains on each track. But that isn't common at all. I think the original stated purpose was for high/wide load usage (as well as for during construction of the stations). The Boca Raton (very) preliminary design drawing I saw (it was on a local Boca or Broward news website last week) appears to show just one station track with platforms on either side - leaving the other track available for high/wide loads and as a bypass when trains are at the station. I didn't see an overhead pedestrian bridge to get to the island platform, however. I don't remember if there are universal crossovers north and south of the Boca raton station site that would allow for operational efficiencies.
> 
> Also, with high level boarding every door can open unlike most Amtrak trains where the number of open doors is limited due to the number of attendants (and due to safety reasons requiring attendants at each open door to assist passengers up/down). Having all doors open also makes boarding quicker.



I don't quite understand why they would ever want to have a longer slower freight train pass a "high-speed" passenger train.


----------



## Brian_tampa

As part of the Brightline phase 1 project, they have installed double track with universal crossovers every 8 or 10 miles (WPB to Miami is maybe 70 miles long), so lots of places to go around trains. That will be the same for phase 2 between WPB and Cocoa on the FECR. So it is easy for them to dispatch the Brightline trains around slower freight trains. Unlike Amtrak, Brightline owns 50% of the dispatching service company along with FECR. There are no issues with priority of traffic or OTP, unlike at other class 1 railroads where they mostly seem to screw over Amtrak (there are 1 or 2 exceptions I know). In fact, the agreement with the dispatch company has OTP goals for both Brightline and FECR trains with regular meetings to review performance!

EDIT: Also unlike Amtrak, Brightline pays their fair share to maintain the track to 79mph MAS class 4 service (as well as 110mph MAS class 6 service for phase 2). This includes the PTC/signals and crossing protection as well as the track infrastructure.


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## MikefromCrete

jamess said:


> Id argue that marketing is to play. High level trains looks more modern and fancy.




It you're going to build a passenger system from scratch, which Brightline/Virgin is doing, then you work to correct problems with existing system. The high platforms are passenger friendly and meet ADA requirements. They ensure that stops can be accomplished in a faster and safer manner. With automatic doors, all doors can open at all stations, not just a couple requiring manual work by the crew. Not using high level platforms would be a big mistake.


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## jis

More on Boca Raton...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/...0191112-j2lowny6mvdlfe7lrjendthcsa-story.html


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## cocojacoby

MikefromCrete said:


> It you're going to build a passenger system from scratch, which Brightline/Virgin is doing, then you work to correct problems with existing system. The high platforms are passenger friendly and meet ADA requirements. They ensure that stops can be accomplished in a faster and safer manner. With automatic doors, all doors can open at all stations, not just a couple requiring manual work by the crew. Not using high level platforms would be a big mistake.


No reason that a new state-of-the-art double-deck train couldn't have automatic doors, gap fillers and everything necessary to offer quick ADA-compliant boarding at low level platforms.


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## jis

Conversely, there is no reason they could not have vestibules at high platform level. Afterall most double decker commuter rolling stack has the mid level and the inter-car walkway is usually at the mid level [emoji6]

Actually, ironically the requirements that are placed on low level platforms by freight railroads makes for a complex situation. The level boarding platform has to be set back quite a bit. Some have gone so far as to suggest that the easiest way is to simply use gauntlet track at platform to allow passenger trains to have truly level boarding, shades of the same issue as high level platform.


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## jiml

jis said:


> Some have gone so far as to suggest that the easiest way is to simply use gauntlet track at platform to allow passenger trains to have truly level boarding, shades of the same issue as high level platform.


Wow, there's a term from the past. I remember learning it as gantlet, although the current spelling is more descriptive - as in "running the". I recall reading somewhere that this was considered as an option when the Southern California Sprinter service was inaugurated, but they went with platform ramps instead. Any examples where these tracks are still in use? I would presume the cost of switching them to and from "live" would be a disincentive in today's reality.


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## jis

NJT’s Union station on the Raritan Valley Line, where it shares tracks with Conrail Shared Asset ex-Lehigh Valley very active freight line.


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## railiner

If you look up “gauntlet track” in Wiki, there are lots of former and active examples cited around the world...
I recall the ones they used to have in the B&P Tunnel at Baltimore to allow TOFC freight trains through...


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## erierail

cocojacoby said:


> No reason that a new state-of-the-art double-deck train couldn't have automatic doors, gap fillers and everything necessary to offer quick ADA-compliant boarding at low level platforms.


Why would you consider low level platforms? High level platforms make it easier for passengers to board especially with carry on luggage, having fewer steps are safer, results in lower accident cost. Reduces dwell tim at every station. Am I missing something here?


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## cocojacoby

Over the years we have converted many main lines to double-stack container clearance. In a fantasy world it would be an interesting if we also converted all AMTRAK routes to the Asian standard of 11 feet 2 inch width for passenger cars. California is considering it for it's high-speed rail project.

I think that would end all of the platform clearance problems, allow ADA access through the entire train consist and allow wider more comfortable sleeper rooms and roomier cafes and lounges.

It's a dream but actually may happen in California.


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## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Over the years we have converted many main lines to double-stack container clearance. In a fantasy world it would be an interesting if we also converted all AMTRAK routes to the Asian standard of 11 feet 2 inch width for passenger cars. California is considering it for it's high-speed rail project.


What Asian standard? That is not the standard at some of the largest of systems in Asia. That is something that the Japanese happen to use. But Japan is a minuscule portion of Asia, and they have the advantage of never having a standard gauge railroad until the Shnkansens were built.

The general standard in Asia is UIC and certain derivatives with minor variations.

An example interesting out of standard loading gauges in Asia other than the Japanese Shinkansen one are:

- 12' width form suburban EMUs, only on designated routes.
- 24' height for double stack on standard 4' high flat cars only on designated routes. India is doing this under 26' high catenary. Those pantographs on the locomotives cleared for the designated routes are sight to behold!



> I think that would end all of the platform clearance problems, allow ADA access through the entire train consist and allow wider more comfortable sleeper rooms and roomier cafes and lounges.


You don't require 11'2" to get level boarding. All that you require is platform tracks isolated from wide load freight traffic, which is much easier and cheaper to achieve than trying to convert everything to 11'2".


> It's a dream but actually may happen in California.


My suspicion is that even in California, the land of non-standard gauges, it will remain just a dream, since the rolling stock for California is as likely to come from Europe, and there will be way too much shared trackage with several other agencies. Maybe Texas might get there on one specific route unconnected with anything else. At the end of the day it is a pointless variation except in the minds of a few railfans who would probably go all the way to the TV series Supertrain dreams.


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## chrsjrcj

jiml said:


> Wow, there's a term from the past. I remember learning it as gantlet, although the current spelling is more descriptive - as in "running the". I recall reading somewhere that this was considered as an option when the Southern California Sprinter service was inaugurated, but they went with platform ramps instead. Any examples where these tracks are still in use? I would presume the cost of switching them to and from "live" would be a disincentive in today's reality.



The new SMART commuter train system installed gauntlet tracks at their station -


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## jiml

chrsjrcj said:


> The new SMART commuter train system installed gauntlet tracks at their station -



I see that. Thanks for the video link. Is that an area of heavy freight traffic or is the track that's farther away from the platform for faster (e.g. non-stop) moves?

I did some reading on the route that jis referenced above and freight there is definitely an issue.


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## Qapla

It would have been nice if the video had shown a train that did not move to the platform so we could see just what type of trains go straight.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> It would have been nice if the video had shown a train that did not move to the platform so we could see just what type of trains go straight.



Generally freight trains, even those that that don’t need to for clearance. Easier logistically to do it that way.


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## Qapla

I figured it was probably freight ... but it still would have been nice to see one in the video

When I was in Kissimmee waiting at the platform for SunRail I saw Amtrak show up (I have also been on the Altrak at that station) - but it also stops at that same location. All of the other SunRail trains I saw also stopped. However, I also saw a freight go by using the same tracks. 

Both the SunRail and Amtrak show up running a bit slow so they don't overshoot the stop - heading south the train comes from around a curve and you see it creep around that curve and seemingly coast up to the platform ... The freight trains - That's a different story

Since they do not stop they are moving much faster. As they come around that curve they seem to suddenly appear and rush at you. As they roar past the seating area on the platform you can feel the wind they drag with them. One moment they show up coming around that curve and the next they are quickly disappearing south leaving blast of air and any papers that were left by people catching the other trains. The attendant that is there for SunRail tells everyone to "step back" when a freight is coming so the wind doesn't grab them ... since many stand as close to the edge as is allowed when the passenger trains show up.


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## railiner

Speaking of wider passenger trains, besides the six-seats across suburban trains in Mumbai, I also saw that on the Shanghai Maglev....

Anyone recall that NBC show, “Supertrain”?
It was so wide, it had to run on double track...


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## cirdan

railiner said:


> Speaking of wider passenger trains, besides the six-seats across suburban trains in Mumbai, I also saw that on the Shanghai Maglev....
> 
> Anyone recall that NBC show, “Supertrain”?
> It was so wide, it had to run on double track...



talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build


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## railiner

cirdan said:


> talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build
> 
> View attachment 15793
> View attachment 15794


Wow! Great find, thanks for posting that...it is too bad that, that was never built, although it would have meant a 'bad' ending of WWII, if it had....


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## jamess

erierail said:


> Why would you consider low level platforms? High level platforms make it easier for passengers to board especially with carry on luggage, having fewer steps are safer, results in lower accident cost. Reduces dwell tim at every station. Am I missing something here?



With a double-Decker train, there are no stairs to access the bottom level. No luggage issues, no step issues, no dwell issues.

You CAN have level boarding with a low platform.


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## MikefromCrete

How tall are those platforms? FrontRunner basically runs on its own trackage next to UP's freight lines. Would they clear a freight train? That is the question. Outside of the high platform Metra Electric stations, all Chicago bi-levels require a step up from the platform.


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## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build
> 
> /QUOTE]
> View attachment 15794
> 
> 
> Do I see signs telling people to order at the counter and bus their own tables in that picture? Are those plastic cutlery and plastic-tasting food items?


----------



## jamess

MikefromCrete said:


> How tall are those platforms? FrontRunner basically runs on its own trackage next to UP's freight lines. Would they clear a freight train? That is the question. Outside of the high platform Metra Electric stations, all Chicago bi-levels require a step up from the platform.



No, the question was if you can do low-level with the same accessibility ease as high level. And you can!

Does it work for freight? That doesnt really matter, because if it doesnt, you would just build the same passing track you would for a high level, but still save money since a low level is cheaper.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that people associate high level with better quality, since it does cost more


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## Qapla

Maybe I'm a little dense ... but what does "low level" actually mean? It seems some are referring to "ground level" while others are referring to having a platform of some type.

It would be impossible to have something on wheels to have "ground level" boarding since it has to sit on the wheels - even getting in one of those really low cars requires some sort of stepping up.

When we get on Amtrak in Palatka we have to step up on one of those orange stools they put on the ground and climb the steps up into the viewliner coach. I have been in a station where I was able to just walk directly from the platform into the viewliner coach.

I recently rode the SunRail commuter train in Orlando. I guess it would be considered a "low level" coach since the floor is nowhere near as high as the floor in the viewliner. The SunRail uses Bombardier Bi-Level VII coaches. The platform is raised just enough to step directly into the coach.

At many of the SunRail platforms the tracks are shared with Amtrak, SunRail and CSX Freight. The Amtrak Station in Kissimmee is at the same location as the SunRail Platform. You board Amtrak just past the SunRail platform directly to the ground using the orange stool Amtrak places on the ground. SunRail's platforms are raised enough to step directly into the SunRail coach.








As can be seen, this station only has two tracks with a short fence in between. 

Freight trains use these tracks running on the same tracks as used by Amtrak and SunRail - only the freights travel much faster through the station area since they are not stopping. They clear the platforms just fine.


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## chrsjrcj

I believe low level coaches have the door 17” off the rail while high level coaches are 48”. 

Tri-Rail, SunRail, and the UTA FrontRunner (post 2664) all use the same coaches. The UTA FrontRunner appears to offer completely level boarding and does not have a step up like SunRail and Tri-Rail, but FrontRunner also has dedicated ROW that Tri-Rail and SunRail do not have.


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## cirdan

jamess said:


> No, the question was if you can do low-level with the same accessibility ease as high level. And you can!
> 
> Does it work for freight? That doesnt really matter, because if it doesnt, you would just build the same passing track you would for a high level, but still save money since a low level is cheaper.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I think that people associate high level with better quality, since it does cost more



Low level of the type in the photo upthread is fine for a commuter service but less so for an intercity service because the low level is only within the one car and you need to use steps to get into the next car. On a commuter service you typically stay in the car that you first board so that doesn't matter. But on an intercity service there will for example be a food cart or similar and although I'm sure that ingenious workarounds are possible for getting those up and down steps, it's easier if you can avoid that problem in the first place.

A Talgo set is low level and you can walk through a set end to end without steps. So it's a pretty good compromise in that respect. But I assume Brightline ran the figures and then didn't chose Talgo.


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## cocojacoby

cirdan said:


> Low level of the type in the photo upthread is fine for a commuter service but less so for an intercity service because the low level is only within the one car and you need to use steps to get into the next car. On a commuter service you typically stay in the car that you first board so that doesn't matter. But on an intercity service there will for example be a food cart or similar and although I'm sure that ingenious workarounds are possible for getting those up and down steps, it's easier if you can avoid that problem in the first place.
> 
> A Talgo set is low level and you can walk through a set end to end without steps. So it's a pretty good compromise in that respect. But I assume Brightline ran the figures and then didn't chose Talgo.



How about a train that solves all this?


https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/27033561/talgo-22


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## Ziv

Interesting. It can be a little taller than a Superliner II but it looks doable. The 3.3m width version could be problematic, the SL II is 3.1m if memory serves. This would be great for the stations with shorter platforms. The one thing that stood out for me, though, it the fact that this Talgo didn't get hit with the ugly stick.




cocojacoby said:


> How about a train that solves all this?View attachment 15804
> 
> 
> https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/27033561/talgo-22


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jiml said:


> Wow, there's a term from the past. I remember learning it as gantlet, although the current spelling is more descriptive - as in "running the". I recall reading somewhere that this was considered as an option when the Southern California Sprinter service was inaugurated, but they went with platform ramps instead. Any examples where these tracks are still in use? I would presume the cost of switching them to and from "live" would be a disincentive in today's reality.


Here's a current example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_station_(South_Shore_Line)


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## jis

Ziv said:


> Interesting. It can be a little taller than a Superliner II but it looks doable. The 3.3m width version could be problematic, the SL II is 3.1m if memory serves. This would be great for the stations with shorter platforms. The one thing that stood out for me, though, it the fact that this Talgo didn't get hit with the ugly stick.


The other thing is that this at present is what we in the software industry call vaporware.  Nice idea and possibly quite doable, but AFAICT after due consideration, Finnish Railways (VR) opted to get standard multi-level cars instead with standard trucks (boarding at lower level gangways at middle level), and passed on Talgo's pendular suspension, and Talgo Oy delivered them to VR.


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## Ziv

And reality slaps me upside the head...
LOL! 
It would be cool if they could build it, and deliver it, at a decent price point.



jis said:


> The other thing is that this at present is what we in the software industry call vaporware.  Nice idea and possibly quite doable, but AFAICT after due consideration, Finnish Railways (VR) opted to get standard multi-level cars instead with standard trucks (boarding at lower level gangways at middle level), and passed on Talgo's pendular suspension, and Talgo Oy delivered them to VR.


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## jadebenn

cocojacoby said:


> I always wondered why Brightline went with high-level platforms when everything else in Florida is low level. How much money would they have saved if they went this route? Stations would be cheaper to construct and those expensive long freight bypasses would have been eliminated. The one foot gap extensions would have been adequate to allow operation of both freight and passenger trains through low-platform stations. Tri-Rail could have used the same station platforms and there would be no need for double platform stations.


Couple reasons I can think of.

One, disability regulations regarding trains and level boarding have tightened considerably in the last decade or so. Many of the commuter rail and light rail systems as currently built would not comply with them if not grandfathered in. For example, the light rail system in my hometown of Denver uses mini full-height platforms at each end of the station to board wheelchairs. That practice is no longer permitted.

Second, high platforms result in lower station dwell time, and not just for disabled passengers (though it certainly helps them too). Normal passengers can embark and disembark slightly faster since it's as easy as walking through a door and they don't have to slow down and watch their step, and disabled passengers can treat it just like any other door as well. To use my Denver light rail example again: Under their system the train operator has to exit their cab and extend a bridge plate over the stairwell whenever a passenger in a wheelchair wishes to board, inevitably leading to them departing the station _way_ behind schedule. Meanwhile on their newer commuter lines with level boarding and high platforms, it's as easy as rolling on and off, no operator intervention required.

Finally, the advantage of going "all high" is a completely level and accessible _interior_. We here in the States are blessed with an extremely generous loading gauge, and our platform heights can make full use of it. With high platform level boarding, there are no steps between cars, no height changes to navigate. This is mainly an advantage to disabled persons as it makes the whole train accessible to them, but it also improves passenger flow.

*EDIT*: Here's a good image showing how much taller American high platforms (~48") are compared to most of the rest of the world:


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## jis

One of Brightline's tag line almost is that their entire train is accessible to a person in a standard wheel chair without requiring any assistance. Hard to achieve on a low platform boarding multi-level unless each car is equipped with a wheelchair lift inside. Brightline as far as I can tell is very unlikely to ever go low platform bi-level.


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## jadebenn

jis said:


> One of Brightline's tag line almost is that their entire train is accessible to a person in a standard wheel chair without requiring any assistance. Hard to achieve on a low platform boarding multi-level unless each car is equipped with a wheelchair lift. Brightline as far as I can tell is very unlikely to ever go low platform bi-level.


Compound that with the fact that Brightline uses an entirely different and incompatible ATC system to Tri-Rail (to the point that Tri-Rail is equipping their fleet of old F40PHs with _both_ systems for Downtown Link operations), and you can see the issues running on both systems poses.

I think that if the Coastal Link ever materializes, it would make more sense for Tri-Rail to just purchase new rolling stock that uses Brightline high platforms than attempt to run their existing rolling stock on the Brightline corridor. There would presumably be enough passenger demand to justify its procurement, and there are already barriers (such as the aforementioned incompatible PTC systems) that prevent extensive crossover with the existing Tri-Rail trackage anyway.


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## jis

Incompatible PTC is actually not as big a problem as one thinks initially. Yes, it increases cost and requires some additional cabinet space in the cab cars and locomotives. But there are now quite a few examples of equipment that are equipped with both I-ETMS and ACSES or similar transponder based systems. Tri-Rail would be such an example of I-ETMS and eATC equipped cabs and power heads. They will require a subfleet thus equipped. Or they could ditch I-ETMS on their trains and simply install eATC on their inland line. They will have to maintain I-ETMS for CSX on that route though. But even that is not all that unusual. For example NEC South of Wilmington DE is substantially equipped with both ACSES II and I-ETMS.

But I do agree that it would make sense to go fully high platform on Coastal Link with passing or gauntlet tracks at stations for freight. And of course it is pretty much a given that Coastal Link will be eATC for PTC.


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## jis

Virgin Trains Says New Stations In Aventura & Boca Raton Will Come Online October 2020, While New Station At Orlando Entertainment Park Now In Negotiation

https://www.thenextmiami.com/bright...ainment-park-in-orlando-new-being-negotiated/


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## west point

Your train cannot e taller than Superliners. Too tall for CHI Union Station


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## chrsjrcj

The most obvious "entertainment park" would be Disney World, considering the proposed route to Tampa.


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## Brian_tampa

Major news released today in the monthly report:

*However, on December 20, 2019, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed the decision of the United
States District Court that the private activity bonds (“PABs”) were properly issued and that the Federal Railroad Administration (“FRA”) complied with all NEPA requirements with respect to the Environmental Impact Statement. We expect that this ruling should conclude the PABs litigation.
*
This is great news for Virgin for both their Florida and Las Vegas projects. Finally, they have no more legal challenges!

Also, ridership for November was just over 100,000 for a year to date total of 885k riders. They will just miss 1 million passengers!

The report also mentions a memorandum of understanding for a station at WDW having been signed by Disney and Virgin last month.


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## Brian_tampa

Here is the US Court of Appeals decision on IRC (Indian River County) v. US DOT. Another slam dunk against IRC's claims.


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## jis

Indian River County is quite capable of being stupid enough to go all the way to the Supreme Court. It is quite possible that the Supreme Court may not wish to spend its time on such a case which has very little deep Constitutional issue involved.


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## Brian_tampa

I agree that the IRC commissioners aren't the brightest. I found a VeroNews article from last November that said the commissioners ignored their own attorneys who urged them to accept the deal that Virgin offered them, much like what Martin County accepted. In IRC, it must be personal to them. Why else would they act so irrationally with taxpayer money? The idea that the county is even considering another appeal says a lot. They were given good legal advise, yet chose to fight on. Will the voters there re-elect them now after wasting millions of tax dollars?


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## jis

IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area on the matter like Brightline (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.


Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!


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## west point

Not entirely stupidity but more Jerrymandering especially in NC !


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## jis

west point said:


> Not entirely stupidity but more Jerrymandering especially in NC !


Florida was basically de-gerrymandered under court order a few years back. But the constituencies in Space and Treasure Coasts were not all that gerrymandered to start with anyway. They hardly changed in the de-gerrymandering exercise. Only the corners that touched Orange and Osceola Counties changed a bit. Similarly in the south where Palm Beach County and Martin County shared constituencies probably, though I don't remember the details down there. Things changed quite a bit in Orange County which played a role in Mica getting ejected.


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## neroden

jis said:


> IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.



There's a 172-part (!!!) blog series called "My Stupid State", by "Seminole Democrat". It's about Florida voters and what they've voted for. I remember it well.


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## peteypablo

Bob Dylan said:


> Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!



I live in a red state and I vote Republican. I'm open to discussing issues with people who disagree with me and recognizing the value of the principles they espouse. It's a fine line between disagreeing and being disagreeable, but I suggest that painting people who live in red states, especially in the south, with such a broad brush, is a mistake. If you can't understand why a large group of people might think differently from you without being stupid, maybe you're missing something important. And you'll have no chance of changing their opinions about anything.


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## Ziv

Petey, I agree with you on this. And the funny thing about Indian River voters is that they are nearly evenly split between right and left. Trump got 49% of the vote there, Libertarian party got 2%, Dems got 48% and Green got 1% if memory serves. This isn't a conservative county, it is split right down the middle. But they are truly Luddites at heart, despite any which way they vote on politics.



peteypablo said:


> I live in a red state and I vote Republican. I'm open to discussing issues with people who disagree with me and recognizing the value of the principles they espouse. It's a fine line between disagreeing and being disagreeable, but I suggest that painting people who live in red states, especially in the south, with such a broad brush, is a mistake. If you can't understand why a large group of people might think differently from you without being stupid, maybe you're missing something important. And you'll have no chance of changing their opinions about anything.


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## bretton88

Bob Dylan said:


> Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!


That's pretty massively offensive what you just said. I'm a civil engineer and vote mostly R, I'd like to think I'm not stupid or an idiot. I have reasons for voting the way I do. If these are the kind of comments tolerated at AU, I might as well check out the community now.


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## Bob Dylan

bretton88 said:


> That's pretty massively offensive what you just said. I'm a civil engineer and vote mostly R, I'd like to think I'm not stupid or an idiot. I have reasons for voting the way I do. If these are the kind of comments tolerated at AU, I might as well check out the community now.


Sorry your feelings were hurt! Perhaps you live somewhere where the office holders are honest, unbigoted and care for everyone unlike most of the Southern States(I.live in Texas, one of the worst in these catorgories)

Voting however you want is how it's supposed to work in this Country,but unfortunately in too many instances the Majorities dont Win!

FYI My Post was taken down by the Moderators as being "Political", even though I stand by what I said as being true!You could looki if up!


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## neroden

I generally assume stupid voting choices are due to ignorance, not native stupidity. (Unless the area has a record of childhood lead poisoning, then I assume it's the lead.). Rick Scott was most famous for masterminding the biggest fraud ever against Medicare, for which his company was convicted; Florida voters elected him *after* that. It is unsurprising that his administration has been widely reported to operate on a "pay to play", provide a bribe or get obstructed, basis... But I assume the people who voted for him simply never did their homework and did not realize he was a fraudster.

Jis's description of Indian River County voters as rejecting anything from experts is describing a form of deliberate, learned ignorance.

Likewise the governor of West Virginia, Jim Justice, is most famous for violating mine safety laws and failing to fund rehabilitation of closed coal mines -- also for cheating mineworkers out of their pensions, not paying his taxes, and not funding the Black Lung compensation funds. He has used the governor's office to avoid paying his West Virginia back taxes and reclamation fees (other states are getting court orders to force him to pay). I have to believe that the people who voted for him simply never did their research on him.

There exist Republicans I would vote for, such as Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, who seems honorable and above-board and is actually helping the MBTA. But there are so many blatant self-dealing crooks running on the Republican Party line now that there are very few. And I have not even mentioned Trump yet.

The question of how to educate voters so they do not literally vote for people who will rob them... Is one I have not worked out a solution for. It is things like Rick Scott and Jim Justice which cause exasperated statements about the stupidity of voters in those states. If you didn't vote for them, please pardon my exasperation, it is not directed at you. If you did, uh... Do your homework next time, please.


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## JRR

neroden said:


> I generally assume stupid voting choices are due to ignorance, not native stupidity. (Unless the area has a record of childhood lead poisoning, then I assume it's the lead.). Rick Scott was most famous for masterminding the biggest fraud ever against Medicare, for which his company was convicted; Florida voters elected him *after* that. It is unsurprising that his administration has been widely reported to operate on a "pay to play", provide a bribe or get obstructed, basis... But I assume the people who voted for him simply never did their homework and did not realize he was a fraudster.
> 
> Jis's description of Indian River County voters as rejecting anything from experts is describing a form of deliberate, learned ignorance.
> 
> Likewise the governor of West Virginia, Jim Justice, is most famous for violating mine safety laws and failing to fund rehabilitation of closed coal mines -- also for cheating mineworkers out of their pensions, not paying his taxes, and not funding the Black Lung compensation funds. He has used the governor's office to avoid paying his West Virginia back taxes and reclamation fees (other states are getting court orders to force him to pay). I have to believe that the people who voted for him simply never did their research on him.
> 
> There exist Republicans I would vote for, such as Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, who seems honorable and above-board and is actually helping the MBTA. But there are so many blatant self-dealing crooks running on the Republican Party line now that there are very few. And I have not even mentioned Trump yet.
> 
> The question of how to educate voters so they do not literally vote for people who will rob them... Is one I have not worked out a solution for. It is things like Rick Scott and Jim Justice which cause exasperated statements about the stupidity of voters in those states. If you didn't vote for them, please pardon my exasperation, it is not directed at you. If you did, uh... Do your homework next time, please.



Attacking voters who vote for people you don’t like does not contribute to civil discussion. There are no perfect people who run for office and until there is such a person, there will be legitimate reasons to have differing opinions about the candidates.

What has been the remarkable and unique aspect of our republic, is that we have accepted the results of the elections and, if the results were not to our liking, worked to accomplish change for the next election.

The lack of civil discourse will ultimately result in the end of the republic.

I have no problem with criticism of any particular candidate or office holder but strongly reject the insinuation that the supporters of those with whom I disagree with are “stupid” or otherwise “less than human.”

Advocacy for or against a candidate or office holder if done civilly, adds to the discourse and general knowledge.

Complaining about the intelligence of those who disagree with you does not and, in fact, says volumes about the person raising such statements.


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## Brian_tampa

From my experience living in Florida for 22 years, it matters less your political affiliation and more about money. Developers have always controlled this state, no matter which party was in control. Virgin Trains USA is run by FECI. FECI has been a huge developer here in Florida for many decades going back to Flagler's time. Not surprisingly, Virgin Trains has received strong bipartisan support here in Florida since they conceived the idea back in 2012. There are no political headwinds for Virgin Trains here. 

Even the HSR project received bipartisan support before Gov Scott was elected. The Florida republicans in power back then approved spending a lot of state money on that project. Gov Scott won because of the 'tea party' wave that hit in 2010 that championed less government spending on everything.


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## Michigan Mom

Money has corrupted politics. 
I consider myself an independent voter, although mostly blue, I don't rule out voting for a good Republican candidate, and have voted for a few in the past. I wasn't a particular fan of the Clintons either. However, there is not a single R that would get my vote today. The things I care about: environment (clean air, land and water), safe and healthy food supply, developed infrastructure including good public transportation systems, health care, and education.
Things I don't care about: Billionaires and Wall Street.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> There are no political headwinds for Virgin Trains here.


There has just been a bit of head breeze, and continues to be from the like of Debbie Maynard and IRC. I don't think that is partisan in nature. I think it is due to a mix of concern about safety and the Treasure Coast obduracy (there I found a more obscure word than "stupidity"  ).

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs...asures-to-curb-deadly-rail-crossing-accidents

Part of the issue though is that the "developers" in Florida are more often than not a relatively deceitful bunch who will sell you water bodies as land with a smile on their face. So they are generally not trusted too much by the public at a visceral level. Quite a bit of the argument against FEC is possibly driven by that than any rational analysis.

The rational point regarding the Brightline related expansion of infrastructure is about who is going to pay for the necessary grade crossing and fencing upgrades needed. Brightline has not exactly been a good citizen when it comes to installing fencing to protect their tracks, for example. Of course that does not excuse the foolhardiness of people that attempt to cross the railroad at grade crossings when the gates are down and then manage to get killed.


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## me_little_me

Well this thread has seriously deteriorated! Merry Christmas!


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> There has just been a bit of head breeze, and continues to be from the like of Debbie Maynard and IRC. I don't think that is partisan in nature. I think it is due to a mix of concern about safety and the Treasure Coast obduracy (there I found a more obscure word than "stupidity"  ).
> 
> https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs...asures-to-curb-deadly-rail-crossing-accidents
> 
> Part of the issue though is that the "developers" in Florida are more often than not a relatively deceitful bunch who will sell you water bodies as land with a smile on their face. So they are generally not trusted too much by the public at a visceral level. Quite a bit of the argument against FEC is possibly driven by that than any rational analysis.
> 
> The rational point regarding the Brightline related expansion of infrastructure is about who is going to pay for the necessary grade crossing and fencing upgrades needed. Brightline has not exactly been a good citizen when it comes to installing fencing to protect their tracks, for example. Of course that does not excuse the foolhardiness of people that attempt to cross the railroad at grade crossings when the gates are down and then manage to get killed.


Well I meant any significant threat. As you know, every single bill against Brightline over the past 3 or 4 years that the Treasure Coast politicians have brought in the FL Senate or House has died.

As far as fencing, I am not sure that is a great idea except in areas with a lot of pedestrian traffic such as certain cities in south Florida. Some of the trespasser strikes have occurred where there was fencing, albeit private fencing not the railroad, and seems most of the strikes have been at legal roadway crossings or suicides which no amount of fencing will prevent. Also, fencing can create a funnel affect and not allow trespassers to exit the ROW as quickly.

The Treasure Coast is known to be anti-development over the decades. They stopped I-95 from being built for 25 years in Martin County! And in that part of Florida, anti-development is bipartisan. I wish it were that way in more places here in Florida (but not to the degree they have taken it!).


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## jis

Well, at least something other than Brightline bashing is getting done to address the issue...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/t...0191205-xqz22tzcuvco7lift3xwmyftau-story.html


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## chrsjrcj

To start with they can stop calling it a high speed railroad. That plays into the sensationalism and the belief that it is unsafe to operate.


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## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Well, at least something other than Brightline bashing is getting done to address the issue...
> 
> https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/t...0191205-xqz22tzcuvco7lift3xwmyftau-story.html


From the article:

_"Susan Mehiel, spokeswoman for Florida Alliance for Safe Trains in Vero Beach, said her volunteer advocacy group believes the high death rate is attributable to the trains’ speed, as well as insufficient fencing to keep trespassers away from the tracks. She believes bridges should be erected over the tracks so that pedestrians wouldn’t have to cross them at ground level.

She asserted that the spike in deaths is due to the dense populations near the tracks the trains travel over."_

So is the death rate higher than the NEC, where the train speeds are faster and population is more dense? (And the trains are more frequent.) True, there are no grade crossing on the NEC, at least not south of New Haven, but all of the other factors cited are more intense on the NEC. So why is the death rate so high in Florida?


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## Ziv

Perhaps in Florida it is a combination of a lack of habituation and a plethora of grade crossings? And a substantial amount of the fatalities seem to be suicides, is that as prevalent on the NEC? It doesn't seem to be as frequent, but I haven't looked into NEC fatalities.
People in Florida have lived with FEC trains all their lives, but I believe the rock trains travel at 40 mph, which makes trying to beat the gate "thrilling", not suicidal. Do FEC's other trains travel at 40 mph, 60 mph or 79 mph? If the other FEC train speeds are 40 and 60, then the locals have gotten used to relatively slow trains and the Bright trains simply don't give the scofflaws time to get across. It may simply take a couple years for the "gate beaters" to realize this is now a losing game, or to die learning. The suicide aspect will be a completely different problem to solve.



MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"Susan Mehiel, ... asserted that the spike in deaths is due to the dense populations near the tracks the trains travel over."_
> 
> So is the death rate higher than the NEC, where the train speeds are faster and population is more dense? (And the trains are more frequent.) True, there are no grade crossing on the NEC, at least not south of New Haven, but all of the other factors cited are more intense on the NEC. So why is the death rate so high in Florida?


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## Anderson

Ziv said:


> Perhaps in Florida it is a combination of a lack of habituation and a plethora of grade crossings? And a substantial amount of the fatalities seem to be suicides, is that a prevalent on the NEC. It doesn't seem to be as frequent, but I haven't looked into NEC fatalities.
> People in Florida have lived with FEC trains all their lives, but I believe the rock trains travel at 40 mph, which makes trying to beat the gate "thrilling", not suicidal. Do FEC's other trains travel at 40 mph, 60 mph or 79 mph? If the other FEC train speeds are 40 and 60, then the locals have gotten used to relatively slow trains and the Bright trains simply don't give the scofflaws time to get across. It may simply take a couple years for the "gate beaters" to realize this is now a losing game, or to die learning. The suicide aspect will be a completely different problem to solve.


The issue is that, per Goddard, 75% of the deaths are (probable) suicides. I think what we have here is a "suicide epidemic" (that _is_ a thing; it's quite well-documented) that is being, ironically, made worse by all of the media coverage. If you take someone who has that ideation and you hit them with a string of news stories about suicide-by-train incidents (as well as other fatal incidents, to be fair), the chance of them getting it in their mind to do that start rising. Taken to a somewhat farcical (but not exactly wrong) conclusion, the mess of anti-Brightline coverage focusing on this can be argued to be causing some of these deaths.

(I am now [morbidly] curious as to whether there's excess mortality involved or this is simply "moving mortality around". Geez, I've been playing around in data for too long...)


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## AGM.12

Where I live, Norfolk Southern instituted a new intermodal service from Charleston,SC to Spartanburg. In the first year, there were a rash of crossing collisions and fatalities. Most people were unaccustomed to a train at that time. I suspect this seems to be part of the problem with Brightline.


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## Anderson

AGM.12 said:


> Where I live, Norfolk Southern instituted a new intermodal service from Charleston,SC to Spartanburg. In the first year, there were a rash of crossing collisions and fatalities. Most people were unaccustomed to a train at that time. I suspect this seems to be part of the problem with Brightline.


That's part of it, but they've had pax service on the other line for over a century so it's not like this is an area that's never seen a passenger train. On the FEC line, perhaps, but...well, I guess I'd say that it seems there's clearly a heck of a learning curve...


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## jiml

Ziv said:


> Perhaps in Florida it is a combination of a lack of habituation and a plethora of grade crossings? And a substantial amount of the fatalities seem to be suicides, is that a prevalent on the NEC. It doesn't seem to be as frequent, but I haven't looked into NEC fatalities.
> People in Florida have lived with FEC trains all their lives, but I believe the rock trains travel at 40 mph, which makes trying to beat the gate "thrilling", not suicidal. Do FEC's other trains travel at 40 mph, 60 mph or 79 mph? If the other FEC train speeds are 40 and 60, then the locals have gotten used to relatively slow trains and the Bright trains simply don't give the scofflaws time to get across. It may simply take a couple years for the "gate beaters" to realize this is now a losing game, or to die learning. The suicide aspect will be a completely different problem to solve.


It's not just Florida. I live in an area generally regarded as law-abiding - except when it comes to level crossings. There is a level crossing a couple of minutes from my home that sees around 50 trains a day crossing a lightly-travelled minor roadway. "Running the gates" is very popular and occasionally documented via dashcam footage on social media. The problem (other than stupidity) is exactly what Ziv has mentioned above. There are several lumbering freights that plod along at 40 mph plus stack trains that reach 60. The close calls are always with the VIA trains. The pic below illustrates the problem - that's a CN speed limit sign (and yes, they still use MPH here). The top two numbers are for LRC and conventional VIA trains, the lower for freights. If a vehicle is perpendicular to the tracks, all you see coming is a locomotive and headlight during the day and only a headlight at night. It is virtually impossible to determine the type of train and its speed coming at you. People tend to assume it's freight and take a chance. It is only a matter of time before a vehicle becomes a hood ornament on a P42.


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## Anderson

You know, there's a case to be made for an extensive legal chase-down of folks posting dashcam footage of such exploits in the form of example-making (particularly since I cannot imagine that crews dealing with such antics are immune from stress from them, or that the railroads are immune from expenses from having to go into emergency on occasion because of it). One thing I'd be entertained to see is a "backed" series of lawsuits pitting not the companies but the _operating crews_ against the gate-runners (the theory being that it is probably cheaper to spend a million dollars supporting some intentionally brutal legal action than to have to shop multiple locomotives over time from either going into emergency or actually crashing).


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## neroden

IIRC Florida had the highest rate of grade crossing incidents in the US before Brightline, and has had for years, along with having the highest rate of cars hitting pedestrians and the highest rate of car crashes in general, so... Something about Florida drivers.


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## Brian_tampa

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2019/12/27/virgin-trains-tampa-to-orlando-right-of-way.html

So the FDOT sent Virgin Trains a letter on Monday announcing another 90 day extension to negotiations for ROW leasing between MCO (Orlando) and Tampa. What is very pointed in the letter is that FDOT appears to be saying that Virgin Trains has tried to pitch the idea of building MCO to Disney without completing the design or negotiations or even building the rest of the route to Tampa. This from the letter:

_The department cannot indefinitely offer a lease opportunity in the Interstate 4 corridor, one of the busiest corridors in the state, for a project with uncertain and unspecified plans and impacts on department projects, and unknown solutions to those impacts.* Nothing in this letter or the RFP commits the department to lease department right of way for a project that is not intercity passenger rail between Orlando and Tampa.
*_
Note the bolded text (added for emphasis) where FDOT actually states this. Something is not going well between FDOT and Virgin Trains. FDOT is also complaining that Virgin has not specified what land they need and has not informed DOT of progress on negotiations with CFRC and OUC (Sunrail and Orlando Utilities Commission). When negotiating for the SR528 lease, all parties worked together to conclude negotiations. It sounds like Virgin is doing separate negotiations and not treating the whole route as a single deal. I can 100% understand why FDOT is frustrated at this point after over a year into the negotiations. At the very least, Virgin Trains should have had at least a 30% design done that would allow them to specify and detail the required ROW needed. I understand that this letter may be FDOT's way of playing hardball, but it does seem like Virgin Trains has dropped the ball here if they can't even tell FDOT what they need! As mentioned in the article, there are many future expansion projects planned for I-4 between Tampa and Orlando.

Here is a portion of the article from the Orlando Business Journal today:


> _Miami-based Virgin Trains is looking to potentially explore leasing the properties along the right of way in segments as part of the deal, including a priority segment it wants to set up that would lead from Orlando International Airport to "roughly the area" of Walt Disney World Resort, according to a Dec. 23 letter from FDOT Assistant Secretary for Strategic Development Tom Byron. Virgin Trains currently has a memorandum of understanding on a station with the resort that it agreed to in November.
> 
> FDOT and Central Florida Expressway Authority both agreed to 90 additional days to allow for further development of the project, as well locating the property Virgin Trains wants to lease and the finalization of environmental planning for the route. But, there were a few areas that needed to be sorted out before negotiations could be successfully completed, Byron said in the later._



MODERATOR NOTE: to comply with copyright laws, a portion of the OBJ article has been removed from this post.


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## Qapla

And thus the reason it takes so long and costs so much to get anything done ........


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## Anderson

I think the issue is probably that Virgin thinks they could finance, design, and build the WDW segment pretty quickly. It's the sort of project that I could see being funded on pretty thin data so long as the form was clear, especially given the rest of the initiative.

Tampa is a more complicated beast (at least two more stations, track, etc.). And _compared to WDW_ it is less of an obvious winner (WDW seems like at _least_ a million-passenger slam-dunk).


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Tampa is a more complicated beast (at least two more stations, track, etc.). And _compared to WDW_ it is less of an obvious winner (WDW seems like at _least_ a million-passenger slam-dunk).


Yes, getting to Tampa is definitely much more complicated then building only to Disney/I-Drive from the Orlando airport. However, the RFP issued by FDOT for I-4 ROW leasing specifically calls for an intercity passenger rail service to be built. It is clear that FDOT intends to hold Virgin Trains to that point of qualification. It is in the state's best interest to have an entity develop true intercity service between Tampa and Orlando and not cherry-pick the best/most profitable segments. Otherwise, Virgin Trains could potentially delay building from Disney to Tampa by decades while reaping the benefits of the shorter link to Disney.


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Yes, getting to Tampa is definitely much more complicated then building only to Disney/I-Drive from the Orlando airport. However, the RFP issued by FDOT for I-4 ROW leasing specifically calls for an intercity passenger rail service to be built. It is clear that FDOT intends to hold Virgin Trains to that point of qualification. It is in the state's best interest to have an entity develop true intercity service between Tampa and Orlando and not cherry-pick the best/most profitable segments. Otherwise, Trains could potentially delay building from Disney to Tampa by decades while reaping the benefits of the shorter link to Disney.


It might be worth making long-term access conditional on the completion of the leg to Tampa within X months/years of completing the Disney leg (possibly with an exception for certain sorts of outside interference causing delays). _For example_, once Disney is operational they have three years to break ground/five years to complete the line to Tampa or "something nasty" happens (we can all come up with versions of "something nasty", but I could see anything from a default of ownership and the ability to call in another company who would legally have access at least as far as MCO to simply charging them escalating fees for non-completion to creating a "default performance" clause that essentially lets the state handle building the line and then "issuing" it to Brightline/Virgin at-cost...or making operation of X daily trains to Tampa by X date, subject to extension by mutual agreement, a condition of the lease and Brightline/Virgin gets to figure out how to make that happen but if they don't operate the trains they're in default).

Edit: To be clear, the rub is that I don't think _anyone _is served by holding up Disney access while Tampa gets sorted out. Even under the best of plans, Disney might be a 2-4 year project (once it gets approved and so on) while Tampa is probably a few years longer (due to the size, scope, etc. of the operation). Probably not quite as long as WPB-MIA to MCO-MIA, but that feels like a reasonable analogy.


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## jiml

The Brightline project as a whole is fascinating to me as an observer. I have some familiarity with the area that these new extensions will serve, so curious if the Tampa leg is totally new construction, rehab of an abandoned ROW or partial acquisition of underused (CSX?) trackage - or a combination of all three. It was easier to understand when all linked to FEC. What are the longer term implications for Amtrak service to Tampa? (I'm not sure I've seen that aspect discussed yet.)


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jiml said:


> The Brightline project as a whole is fascinating to me as an observer. I have some familiarity with the area that these new extensions will serve, so curious if the Tampa leg is totally new construction, rehab of an abandoned ROW or partial acquisition of underused (CSX?) trackage - or a combination of all three. It was easier to understand when all linked to FEC. What are the longer term implications for Amtrak service to Tampa? (I'm not sure I've seen that aspect discussed yet.)


It will primarily be new construction along the I-4 ROW.


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## west point

Star ridership from the NE portion probably will not be reduced. However Tampa - to southern Florida east coast much likely to be problematic . Now if ridership improves due to more total ridership on Amtrak and Brightline ?


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> Edit: To be clear, the rub is that I don't think _anyone _is served by holding up Disney access while Tampa gets sorted out. Even under the best of plans, Disney might be a 2-4 year project (once it gets approved and so on) while Tampa is probably a few years longer (due to the size, scope, etc. of the operation). Probably not quite as long as WPB-MIA to MCO-MIA, but that feels like a reasonable analogy.


I probably should have focused on the main problem that FDOT appears to be having with Virgin Trains (VTUSA) at this point: lack of detail or clarity regarding what land VTUSA needs from FDOT and CFX, not the actual build-out date of the rail system. FDOT and CFX have planned road projects that they want to see completed by 2025. I-4 Beyond Ultimate from US27 east to Sand Lake Rd. near Orlando and the 'Lexus Lanes' project on I_4 from Plant City west to downtown Tampa as well as SR417 expansion west of MCO towards I-4. IMO, VTUSA is being presented with a 'all or nothing' request now from FDOT. Tampa can easily get sorted out with a bit of design effort. I need to re-read the RFP to see how detailed the responses had to be to obtain a lease of ROW.

FDOT (and CFX) needs clarity so the designs of all road and rail projects planned in the next 10 years can be integrated together before any design gets too far. VTUSA has been actively considering using the I-4 ROW since early 2018 (if not before). I do not understand why they have not been able to present an accounting of ROW land required to FDOT and CFX after almost two years.

EDIT: Just thinking further... I have heard that VTUSA has been focused on their Vegas project for the past year. Perhaps this is why things aren't going real smooth with the Tampa extension? Maybe they don't have the resources to ramp up both projects?


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I probably should have focused on the main problem that FDOT appears to be having with Virgin Trains (VTUSA) at this point: lack of detail or clarity regarding what land VTUSA needs from FDOT and CFX, not the actual build-out date of the rail system. FDOT and CFX have planned road projects that they want to see completed by 2025. I-4 Beyond Ultimate from US27 east to Sand Lake Rd. near Orlando and the 'Lexus Lanes' project on I_4 from Plant City west to downtown Tampa as well as SR417 expansion west of MCO towards I-4. IMO, VTUSA is being presented with a 'all or nothing' request now from FDOT. Tampa can easily get sorted out with a bit of design effort. I need to re-read the RFP to see how detailed the responses had to be to obtain a lease of ROW.
> 
> FDOT (and CFX) needs clarity so the designs of all road and rail projects planned in the next 10 years can be integrated together before any design gets too far. VTUSA has been actively considering using the I-4 ROW since early 2018 (if not before). I do not understand why they have not been able to present an accounting of ROW land required to FDOT and CFX after almost two years.
> 
> EDIT: Just thinking further... I have heard that VTUSA has been focused on their Vegas project for the past year. Perhaps this is why things aren't going real smooth with the Tampa extension? Maybe they don't have the resources to ramp up both projects?


My guess is that some of the problem surrounds Lakeland, where the station location is uncertain as of now (and I presume that a station location would require some extra width). The other part is _probably_ the approach to I-4 from the Disney station, which would depend on (among other things) the station location.

Edit: And of course, the Tampa station situation is another open question...though there they might only need to figure out where they depart from the interstate ROW.


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## Tom in PA

This is probably a naive question, but why can't the VTUSA trains follow trackage on the current Silver Star route to Tampa from Orlando?
(But not use the back-in Tampa station.)


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Tom in PA said:


> This is probably a naive question, but why can't the VTUSA trains follow trackage on the current Silver Star route to Tampa from Orlando?
> (But not use the back-in Tampa station.)


It is owned by CSX, lacks the necessary capacity, and is slow. It also goes nowhere near Disney World. 

It doesn't matter to Brightline since they're not going there anyway, but the only reason trains back into Tampa Union Station is to reverse direction. A push-pull service would therefore not need to back in. It's basically the same setup as Denver Union Station, where the CZ backs in but the Ski Train as well as RTD trains do not need to.


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> My guess is that some of the problem surrounds Lakeland, where the station location is uncertain as of now (and I presume that a station location would require some extra width). The other part is _probably_ the approach to I-4 from the Disney station, which would depend on (among other things) the station location.
> 
> Edit: And of course, the Tampa station situation is another open question...though there they might only need to figure out where they depart from the interstate ROW.


I have not heard any details about the Lakeland station location. Although I understand that instead of using a mile long viaduct from west of the CSX A-Line to US98, like the HSR project proposed, it will run at grade in the median through that section. Related to this is a project by FDOT and CSX to replace and lengthen that railroad bridge across I-4 to accomodate rail plus expansion of I-4 by 2022 or so.
EDIT: the new CSX bridge would allow for 2 tracks vs. the present single track bridge. Also, the HSR proposal had their station elevated above I-4 at this location east of Kathleen Rd. at the same elevation as the viaduct. Not sure what VTUSA plans for Lakeland.

In Tampa, the station site I think has the greatest potential to happen is the Tampa Park Apartments location. To get there, VTUSA would exit the I-4 median around 15th Street North and then follow East 12th Avenue to get to Nuccio Parkway which borders the property along the east side. It is one of the only large single owner parcels of land that is available at a somewhat inexpensive price in the north or east parts of the downtown and Ybor City areas. It has around 10+ acres of land and the apartments are old two story buildings for the most part.

It is across the CSX (old) Port Tampa rail line and Nuccio Parkway from the Tampa Union Station site.


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## jis

My suspicion is that VTUSA will not get permission from FDOT to use any FDOT property to get to Disney, absent a full plan and agreement on the whole OIA - Tampa segment, possibly with penalties spelled out if the Tampa segment is not built within some stipulated time period. FDOT knows how things work in Florida and traditional Florida practices of promising the sky and finally delivering a mud patch if one can manage to get away with it. They will be extremely cautious. As a Florida resident I think that is a prudent thing to do.


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## Brian_tampa

VTUSA will have to use FDOT ROW as about 1/3 of the SR417 route between I-4 and MCO is owned by FDOT - the section closest to I-4. CFX owns the stretch east of there to the Sunrail tracks (and beyond, of course). Not to mention a station on the north (or west) side of I-4 at WDW is preferable I would think (meaning they would have to cross the I-4 ROW at WDW). VTUSA is kind of forced to play nice with FDOT.

I think this letter (and negotiating tactic) is FDOT's way of drawing a line in the sand, so to speak, in order to make VTUSA commit to building a true intercity service to Tampa. Of course all of this is years down the road. I just read that the initial I-4 Ultimate project is 9 months behind schedule. So the I-4 Beyond Ultimate that follows might be delayed as well. There is plenty of time to do the work, it is a matter of doing proper designing and planning around each project, of which there are at least four along I-4 and SR417! 3 road and 1 rail project. And I am sure VTUSA will have to plan around any future Sunrail extension to MCO as well. FDOT owns the Sunrail (CFRC) ROW I believe. So many moving parts here...


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## jis

Yup. FDOT indeed owns the SunRail (CFRC) ROW, and hence the entire Meadow Woods transfer station is fully tied in with FDOT and its blessings.


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## chrsjrcj

The Meadow Woods transfer station will be absolutely useless as long as SunRail offers no service on weekends and holidays. It’s not like trains run every 10-15 minutes during the week either.


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## west point

has any one accessed Sun Rail ridership figures?


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## jis

west point said:


> has any one accessed Sun Rail ridership figures?


Google is your friend...

https://www.news-journalonline.com/...ain-is-growing-but-will-it-ever-run-to-deland


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## jis

Incidentally, the Final Report (May 2016) of the Passenger Rail Station Location Study carried out by the Space Coast TPO funded by Canaveral Port Authority, for a Brightline Station in the Space Coast (Brevard County) can be found here: https://spacecoasttpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/AAF-Station-Report-final.pdf


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## AmtrakWPK

jis said:


> Yup. FDOT indeed owns the SunRail (CFRC) ROW, and hence the entire Meadow Woods transfer station is fully tied in with FDOT and its blessings.


I would HOPE that whatever VT, SunRail, FDOT, DIsney and the Airport Authority work out together ends up being at least a semi-integrated plan. We here in Orlando and Central Florida and Florida as a whole NEED it to be. Disney would benefit tremendously if people from all over the Orlando metro area could park their car at their local SunRail station and take rail all the way to Disney and return (and Lakeland and Tampa to Disney). MCO (Orlando International Airport) will be SOOO much nicer to use if we can access it from our local SunRail station. Getting to and from Tampa from a local SunRail station will also be really nice (we already can, by taking SunRail to WPK, ORL, or Kissimmee Amtrak and then taking 91 to TPA but that's just once a day, only weekdays), and hopefully several times a day on VT. And, of course, having the ability to get from your local Sunrail station to Miami and back and from Tampa to Miami and back via the VT connex. We really need them to make this an integrated whole. Good luck.......


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## AGM.12

If Virgin gets sandbagged by FDOT west of MCO, I wonder if their back up plan is simply build north to JAX?


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## jis

AGM.12 said:


> If Virgin gets sandbagged by FDOT west of MCO, I wonder if their back up plan is simply build north to JAX?



More like if Virgin fails to produce a viable proposal west of OIA in a timely manner to preserve easements for it. 

JAX will never produce anything remotely close to the ridership or revenue projected for the OIA - Tampa segment.


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## EchoSierra

AGM.12 said:


> If Virgin gets sandbagged by FDOT west of MCO, I wonder if their back up plan is simply build north to JAX?



Isn't the service to Disney World being done with Disney's blessing? I suppose maybe Disney could flex their muscles if FDOT wants to hold it hostage.


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## jis

Where did you get the idea that FDOT is holding anyone hostage? They just agreed to extend the negotiation period by 90 days beyond what was originally agreed to - an extension that became necessary because Virgin did not meet the deadline of the original MOU, a pretty odd thing for someone to do if all they wanted was to hold someone hostage. If they had ulterior motives they could have told Virgin to bug off at this point. [emoji6]


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Edit: To be clear, the rub is that I don't think _anyone _is served by holding up Disney access while Tampa gets sorted out. Even under the best of plans, Disney might be a 2-4 year project (once it gets approved and so on) while Tampa is probably a few years longer (due to the size, scope, etc. of the operation). Probably not quite as long as WPB-MIA to MCO-MIA, but that feels like a reasonable analogy.



I agree.

And the Tampa project needs to be well thought through. The siting of the station there could well be the argument that makes or breaks the line's ability to attract ridership. The other stations so far, and especially Miami and Orlando have pretty much been no brainers as any alternative site would obviously have been nonsensical. So it's not as if VTUSA even has much experience in actually picking a site in a totally open comparison.

A rushed and botched decision that could weigh down VTUSA's bottom line for decades is the last thing they need (or that the public needs).


----------



## jis

The need for fixing requirements and plans soon is more in the area where I-4 RoW is slated to see major modification in the layout of the highway lanes in the near future. Waiting for the determination of the most wonderful site in Tampa may leave one with just a wonderful station there with an inferior or no rail connection to Orlando which would be quite undesirable too.

Anyhow, at present FDOT and VTUSA are methodically working through the issues and trying to get closure on an easement agreement in place among FDOT, VTUSA and CFEA. This involves both easement and toll compensation issues, and a closure at least in Orange and Osceola Counties is essential for both the link to resorts and easement protection and preservation through complex changes in I-4 layout. 

The other point that I raised in the passing is that FDOT, and State of Florida has a fundamental interest in making sure that the entire thing to Tampa is eventually built, and not just the OIA - Resorts segment. I am sure there will be appropriate penalties and such included in the agreement that is finally entered into by the parties, and that can be done in a way that allows staged design finalization and construction. Actually raising money to do any of this will require completion of an EIS or equivalent, and if the likes of Debbie Mayfield have their way same would be required before any Florida State permits are given too I suspect.

As it turns out, as I have heard from at least one person at VTUSA, they have a core interest in the link to Tampa and a preference to serve via Resorts if they can. The high quality revenue source is the Tampa - Orlando link. Going via Resorts with a stop there just enhances its value. Just OIA and Meadow Brooks to Resorts has a potential large ridership but relatively low quality revenue, and is a very different kind of service from what VTUSA sees as its primary service niche. So bottom line is, even VTUSA will not jeopardize the link to Tampa for the sake of getting an early link to Resorts, though in the staged development plan indeed the link to Resorts may materialize earlier, somewhat like West Palm Beach - Fort Lauderdale materialized first, for the Miami Central - Orlando link.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The need for fixing requirements and plans soon is more in the area where I-4 RoW is slated to see major modification in the layout of the highway lanes in the near future. Waiting for the determination of the most wonderful site in Tampa may leave one with just a wonderful station there with an inferior or no rail connection to Orlando which would be quite undesirable too.



Yes. Makes perfect sense.



jis said:


> Anyhow, at present FDOT and VTUSA are methodically working through the issues and trying to get closure on an easement agreement in place among FDOT, VTUSA and CFEA. This involves both easement and toll compensation issues, and a closure at least in Orange and Osceola Counties is essential for both the link to resorts and easement protection and preservation through complex changes in I-4 layout.



What's this about toll compensation issues? Will VTUSA have to compensate for traffic they abstract from the highway?



jis said:


> The other point that I raised in the passing is that FDOT, and State of Florida has a fundamental interest in making sure that the entire thing to Tampa is eventually built, and not just the OIA - Resorts segment. I am sure there will be appropriate penalties and such included in the agreement that is finally entered into by the parties, and that can be done in a way that allows staged design finalization and construction. Actually raising money to do any of this will require completion of an EIS or equivalent, and if the likes of Debbie Mayfield have their way same would be required before any Florida State permits are given too I suspect.



The rumor mill is saying that the entire reason the Tampa to Orlando HSR project was scuttled was to permit conventional inter city rail on that corridor. If that is the case, it would be an act of extreme backstabbing on VTUSA's part if they now turn around and don't do their part, as the chances of anybody else stepping up and running such a service are virtually nil.



jis said:


> As it turns out, as I have heard from at least one person at VTUSA, they have a core interest in the link to Tampa and a preference to serve via Resorts if they can. The high quality revenue source is the Tampa - Orlando link. Going via Resorts with a stop there just enhances its value. Just OIA and Meadow Brooks to Resorts has a potential large ridership but relatively low quality revenue, and is a very different kind of service from what VTUSA sees as its primary service niche. So bottom line is, even VTUSA will not jeopardize the link to Tampa for the sake of getting an early link to Resorts, though in the staged development plan indeed the link to Resorts may materialize earlier, somewhat like West Palm Beach - Fort Lauderdale materialized first, for the Miami Central - Orlando link.



Sounds logical to me. Any short-haul service or opening of long-haul trains to short-haul riders will just be icing on the cake but can never spin big money simply because there is a limit to what you can charge for such a short ride and because VTUSA preferably wants to keep those seats available for long-haul riders rather than having them blocked on that section wilh little chance of re-selling them in significant numbers for,say, Resorts to Tampa.

Methinks at the end of the day if Disney wants something special they are going to have to bring theor own money to the table.

Anyway, if VTUSA genuinely didn't want to run to Tampa, I don' see why they would be going through the motions. The objective is totally genuine IMHO.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> What's this about toll compensation issues? Will VTUSA have to compensate for traffic they abstract from the highway?


The issue is with the responsibility for paying down the construction bonds for the tollways which assumed certain traffic projections. CFEA and I suppose by proxy, FDOT, which indirectly is on the hook for those has taken the position that if the underlying revenue source that supported the issuance of those bonds are adversely affected by something that uses CFEA property and uses FDOT permit, there must be mitigation for the adverse effect included, since the whole exercise must be revenue neutral to tax payers. Since higher speed rail service would divert otherwise toll paying traffic, there must be mitigation. Fortunately it is nothing huge, maybe a dollar or so per ticket, but it has to be agreed to before FDOT and CFEA will sign off on easements and permits.


> The rumor mill is saying that the entire reason the Tampa to Orlando HSR project was scuttled was to permit conventional inter city rail on that corridor.


The simple reason that the HSR was scuttled was politics, backed by a legitimate (from a certain perspective) concern that Florida did not want to pick up the subsidy tab for it that would possibly have followed as was projected in the planning documents. The more interesting rumor was that Scott and his friends preferred something in which they had an investment and could make some money off of, and the HSR project was not it. 

I tend to believe the taxpayer burden theory because Florida has also steadfastly refused to subsidize any local Amtrak run service unless it meets some relatively high cost recovery barrier. That is not to say that Scott was not also motivated by possibilities of personal gain in following a different course, which has actually turned out to be somewhat true afterall.  It is a separate discussion as to whether that is a reasonable or logical stance or not, but it is what it is.


----------



## jis

> Brightline, the high-speed South Florida rail service, surpassed the one million ridership mark for 2019, a spokesman said Monday, placing it on path to reach a goal of serving nearly 3 million customers by the end of 2021, its third full year of service.
> 
> In its most recent financial filing, the company said it crossed over the 100,000 mark in a single month for the first time in November.
> 
> Although the company has yet to formally publish its financial results for December and the full year, spokesman Michael Hicks said Brightline nearly doubled its ridership year over year on the strength of “back-to-back” record months in November and December. He added that commuter passes “more than doubled in 2019,” and that “business travel is at an all-time high.”
> 
> Hicks said the company has sufficient cash to meet its operational needs for 2020. Revenues for the 11-month period of 2019 were $19.2 million, according to the filing, an increase of 147% year-over-year.
> 
> .....


Read the whole article at...
http://enewspaper.sun-sentinel.com/...HG9yV5Phw1-Xp86Y55qR4LLDy-x2HH2YeoD9ZfBt-KUhw


----------



## NeueAmtrakCalifornia

A little bit off topic but still related to Virgin Trains, has anyone here been keeping tabs on the Victorville-Las Vegas train?


----------



## jis

NeueAmtrakCalifornia said:


> A little bit off topic but still related to Virgin Trains, has anyone here been keeping tabs on the Victorville-Las Vegas train?




https://www.reviewjournal.com/busin...-for-las-vegas-to-southern-cal-train-1911377/


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## jis

Indian River County finally gives up its opposition ...

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...lawsuit-against-virgin-trains-usa/4457291002/


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## Qapla

I really do not like trying to read an article in a link that blocks the text with a pop-up that requires me to either sign-up or turn off my ad blocker ... I was unable to finish reading the article.


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## jis

Well beggars can’t be choosers. I guess you get what you pay for [emoji51]


----------



## west point

These counties have cost FEC some and Brightline a lot of cash. A reward would be for Brightline to say when the counties come begging for a station(s) for Brightline to build to say " forget it "!


----------



## Anderson

west point said:


> These counties have cost FEC some and Brightline a lot of cash. A reward would be for Brightline to say when the counties come begging for a station(s) for Brightline to build to say " forget it "!


Eh, those stations are potentially worth millions in incremental revenue for the railroad. That being said, I suspect that what we will see is a rather frosty attitude towards coordinating with the county (more Indian River than the other one).


----------



## jis

west point said:


> These counties have cost FEC some and Brightline a lot of cash. A reward would be for Brightline to say when the counties come begging for a station(s) for Brightline to build to say " forget it "!



Whadya mean “these counties”? Only two counties are involved - Martin and Indian River. Brevard has been supportive from day one notwithstanding the carpetbagger legislator originally from Vero who now calls Melbourne home [emoji51]

Anyway Martin is most likely getting a station, and Indian River probably not, at least initially. Though Vero is a good candidate though in terms of distances from adjacent stops Sebastian may be better.


----------



## Brian_tampa

So Vero Beach wants a station stop now? what the heck! As that county and a lot of residents who live there have opposed this project and delayed it by at least 3 years, they do not deserve a stop for a very long time IMO. Their actions have cost the company much time and money and delayed VTUSA from getting to where I live near Tampa. At least Brevard County was the first county north of WPB to welcome the project.

http://veronews.com/2020/01/16/in-dramatic-reversal-vero-now-seeks-train-station/


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## chrsjrcj

lol, that's surprising to no rail advocate. 

I think maybe one problem with some of these Florida cities is that transit, where it exists, is somewhat new. There are NIMBYs everywhere, but it is hard to cultivate support in towns like Vero Beach and Stuart where transit is practically non-existent. The population along the Treasure Coast is much higher than it was 20 years or so when many retirees moved in. There may have been some council members that were reluctant to support the lawsuit, but the mob opposed to Brightline was too overwhelming to ignore. As transit becomes more established, governments and local businesses recognize the economic benefits and it provides more of a counterweight to the NIMBYs.


----------



## Rail Freak

chrsjrcj said:


> lol, that's surprising to no rail advocate.
> 
> I think maybe one problem with some of these Florida cities is that transit, where it exists, is somewhat new. There are NIMBYs everywhere, but it is hard to cultivate support in towns like Vero Beach and Stuart where transit is practically non-existent. The population along the Treasure Coast is much higher than it was 20 years or so when many retirees moved in. There may have been some council members that were reluctant to support the lawsuit, but the mob opposed to Brightline was too overwhelming to ignore. As transit becomes more established, governments and local businesses recognize the economic benefits and it provides more of a counterweight to the NIMBYs.


I forget, what's a NIMBY?


----------



## Brian_tampa

chrsjrcj said:


> lol, that's surprising to no rail advocate.
> 
> I think maybe one problem with some of these Florida cities is that transit, where it exists, is somewhat new. There are NIMBYs everywhere, but it is hard to cultivate support in towns like Vero Beach and Stuart where transit is practically non-existent. The population along the Treasure Coast is much higher than it was 20 years or so when many retirees moved in. There may have been some council members that were reluctant to support the lawsuit, but the mob opposed to Brightline was too overwhelming to ignore. As transit becomes more established, governments and local businesses recognize the economic benefits and it provides more of a counterweight to the NIMBYs.


Yep it didn't surprise me but for the fact that they made the request so fast after the appeals court ruling  They didn't wait for the ink to dry haha


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## Brian_tampa

Rail Freak said:


> I forget, what's a NIMBY?


Not In My Back Yard

I think its the same type who yell "Get off my yard!" at kids playing.


----------



## Rail Freak

Brian_tampa said:


> Not In My Back Yard
> 
> I think its the same type who yell "Get off my yard!" at kids playing.


I remember that Old Lady,LOL!


----------



## Anderson

It isn't a question of "deserving" a stop. It's a question of money. If a stop is going to add mid-six-figures worth of ridership per year (and hourly service with sufficient capacity would probably result in at least 100k riders/yr for stops with at least some distance to other stops), that's probably $2-5m/yr. At 250k riders/yr (probably not an unreasonable ballpark, depending on how many other stations are in play) that range lands from $5-12.5m/yr.

Now, what Brightline _might_ consider is demanding either reimbursement for legal expenses in some fashion (perhaps in the form of a development tax incentive of some sort...more than one way to skin a cat...) or some generous zoning permissions if they want it anytime soon (otherwise, it is at the "back of the line"). Other options would be reshuffling transit lines to act as a feeder system, etc.

Basically, the NIMBYs lost this one and I think Brightline can probably reasonably extract some lucrative concessions in a face-saving manner for the county.


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## jis

Update on additional stations ...

https://www.thenextmiami.com/bright...-this-quarter-disney-station-now-in-planning/


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## Anderson

That's about what I'm seeing from elsewhere...I think Brightline is doing a pretty good job of lining up stations to add over the next 2-3 years. From what I can tell, Aventura _should_ open first, with Boca not far behind it (though they might well start service to both at the same time if construction lines up closely so as to avoid having to repeatedly tinker with the schedule in a few weeks.


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## jis

https://www.thenextmiami.com/virgin...POIgzLhUg5XD2_xBcOiC5cKw8B-Cbhj1QBPSfEhhAkZs8


----------



## Palmetto

I wonder how the Port Miami service will work. The spur is just north of the MiamiCentral station, so not all trains will go there, for sure.


----------



## neroden

Palmetto said:


> I wonder how the Port Miami service will work. The spur is just north of the MiamiCentral station, so not all trains will go there, for sure.


Almost certain that it will only operate trains connecting to specific cruise ships. Specials.


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## west point

How Port Miami service will work may depend on how nimble Brightline can be. They need to work with the cruise shipping lines to get planned schedules. Then any change of schedules need info immediately to Brightline. For best results have a sales agent board longer distance cruise ships at last stoop. Have agent at the boarding ramp for departures for all departures. 

For ship arrivals schedule train departures from Port Miami when passengers have baggage, cleared customs and immigration factoring in boarding time . For bookings over capacity of one train depart as soon as load is full. 

For passenger schedule to depart have train arrivals starting when a ship will be ready to receive cruise passengers. Schedule any train arrivals at least 30 - 60 minutes before last call to mitigate any delays. For the inevitable train collision delays that may happen work out some solution like buses or another following train. 

Get cruise lines to add Brightline links on their web sites.


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## railiner

neroden said:


> Almost certain that it will only operate trains connecting to specific cruise ships. Specials.


Pretty certain they will serve more than just Virgin cruise ships, or else they would be discarding more than 90% of the Miami cruise market.
Don't know just where on the Dodge Island the train will stop, but all of the cruise ship terminals would be fairly close...


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## jis

The deal with Virgin has a clause that requires Brightline to get permission from Virgin before helping any competitor of any Virgin branded operation.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> The deal with Virgin has a clause that requires Brightline to get permission from Virgin before helping any competitor of any Virgin branded operation.


The definition of "competitor" is going to be interesting in that case.

Also, I suspect that said permission exists or will be granted, or I see a mild catfight brewing over the pax numbers to the PortMiami numbers (I don't see Virgin carrying 3.5m pax on their ships in the next few years:


> In exchange for the capital injection, Miami-Dade will charge Brightline a $2 fee for each departing train passenger. If the county has not received $7 million by the end of the fifth full year of operation, Virgin will pay the balance.



Presuming that Virgin can shake 5.5 years out of that agreement ("full year of operation" suggests that they might shake an extra batch of time if they start at the beginning of a year, but who knows what "full year" actually means), Virgin's ships can fit 2700 people. Presuming one sailing per week, that's 140,400/yr per ship if all spaces go. Even when you get all four ships running, assuming you get the turnaround time to "once per six days" (about 164k/ship/yr, or 657k/yr overall) there's no way they make the 3.5m pax that would be needed to pay that back even running full tilt (and they won't be able to do that for several years into the operation).

Now, "We cut you a check for $5m in a few years" might be a workable situation...but it certainly seems like Virgin would _not_ want to build a station to use it once or twice a week.

That being said, the "competitor" clause gets interesting in terms of airline codeshares. I'm going to suspect that a codeshare with Delta would work out fine (given the ownership situation, I suspect if Delta wanted that and Virgin pushed back hard there would be some shouting in a boardroom somewhere). UA or AA would be problematic (particularly AA, given the BA situation). B6 would've been fine as long as they were staying domestic (that would render them "not a competitor") and any North America-only airlines are probably safe. B6 stands out as well because they seemed to me to be primed to codeshare with Brightline. European continental airlines (_particularly_ with no service to/from the UK) would be a fun test. For example, is Condor a competitor to Virgin Atlantic given that it doesn't serve any UK destinations? So would any Asian carriers (Emirates comes to mind given the routing situation).


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> The definition of "competitor" is going to be interesting in that case.
> 
> Also, I suspect that said permission exists or will be granted, or I see a mild catfight brewing over the pax numbers to the PortMiami numbers (I don't see Virgin carrying 3.5m pax on their ships in the next few years:


Yes. It will be interesting. I was merely pointing out the existence of the no compete clause in the master agreement between Brightline and Virgin. In specific cases its interpretation may very well be in effect "preference and first right of refusal" or something like that, i.e. if there is a choice between serving a Virgin cruise ship or some other cruise ship, Virgin must get preference, or some such. Subject to that restriction anyone can be served.


----------



## railiner

Virgin has tried to carve out a rather unique niche in ocean cruises...for example, it will not board any passengers under age 18...most other lines homeported in Miami are family friendly.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Virgin has tried to carve out a rather unique niche in ocean cruises...for example, it will not board any passengers under age 18...most other lines homeported in Miami are family friendly.



Also they are advertising "all tips included" - that's a big change in the cruise industry. I'll give em a try!


----------



## jis

According to the latest issue of FECRS Magazine apparently a new dialogue has started among VTUSA, Brevard County and the City of Melbourne on planning for a a multi-modal transportation center at Melbourne International Airport, which is adjacent to the FECR RoW, and the City and Airport own significant tracts of land which they are willing to throw into the mix. The proposal is to build a VTUSA station mostly funded by the County and City on that land together with a large parking lot which will serve both the airport and the station. Additional air industry related rela estate development is part of the proposal too. Of course they will have to do something with Apollo Blvd which runs between the railroad RoW and the airport land.

Very early in the process and entirely possible that nothing will come of it. But there is a potential for something good coming out of it.

Notice that Debbie Mayfield (R) is basically being ignored by the county and city officials in Brevard county.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> According to the latest issue of FECRS Magazine apparently a new dialogue has started among VTUSA, Brevard County and the City of Melbourne on planning for a a multi-modal transportation center at Melbourne International Airport, which is adjacent to the FECR RoW, and the City and Airport own significant tracts of land which they are willing to throw into the mix. The proposal is to build a VTUSA station mostly funded by the County and City on that land together with a large parking lot which will serve both the airport and the station. Additional air industry related rela estate development is part of the proposal too. Of course they will have to do something with Apollo Blvd which runs between the railroad RoW and the airport land.
> 
> Very early in the process and entirely possible that nothing will come of it. But there is a potential for something good coming out of it.
> 
> Notice that Debbie Mayfield (R) is basically being ignored by the county and city officials in Brevard county.


I can't say I'm surprised on that last point. Mayfield has been enough of a thorn in the project's side that...well, I suspect that even if they reached out to her any efforts towards collaboration went nowhere and they decided to just cut her out. Can't say I blame them, either.

A station at Melbourne's airport would be a boon for the airport if the train eventually goes to WDW (which I presume but don't assume just yet), depending on the exact layout.

(Also, is this station exclusive with one at Cocoa? Asking because the distance between Melbourne and Cocoa shows as about 25-30 miles, which seems to be enough distance to justify stops, but this might also get tangled up with the Beeline agreement.)


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> A station at Melbourne's airport would be a boon for the airport if the train eventually goes to WDW (which I presume but don't assume just yet), depending on the exact layout.



I guess it depends.

It makes sense to connect large airports to intercity rail systems as obviously people will need to come to that airport from a large area.

When it comes to local airports, this isn't really the case. It makes more sense to connect those to local transit systems.

That is unless Melbourne has ambitions to compete head on with Miami and Orlando airports.

But on the other hand, if this can be done on the cheap, which i guess it can, seeing no extra track needs to be built for example, then there is probably not much risk either.


----------



## jis

The proposed Melbourne TC would be in addition to Cocoa, not instead of. Cocoa is needed as the interchange station for the future service to JAX, irrespective of what else happens, and FECI/VTUSA intend to create an office/residence center on their property in that area. Again, this is very preliminary and indeed nothing may come of it at the end of the day.

The County station location study had looked at a site slightly south of the currently proposed location at what used to be the location of the Hopkins station in the Melbourne area. They had rejected the location of the original Melbourne station as impractical because it is too entangled with too many downtown buildings.

Melbourne Airport is considered to be a satellite of MCO, and is called Melbourne Orlando International Airport, though it has nothing to do with the Orlando Airport Authority - which incidentally is a Florida State owned outfit, not City of Orlando owned.


----------



## jadebenn

VTUSA has decided it'd like to operate a commuter service if the city's willing to pay. Sounds like they've essentially appropriated the plans for the Tri-Rail Coastal Link.

If this actually goes through, the FEC corridor is going to become the most built-up rail ROW in the US outside the NEC. Intercity, commuter, and freight trains, triple (maybe even quad) tracking, and equipped with CTC, ATC, and PTC.

The FEC trackage was always first-class (ironic for a Class II railroad), but this would put it on a _whole_ 'nother level.


----------



## MARC Rider

jadebenn said:


> VTUSA has decided it'd like to operate a commuter service if the city's willing to pay. Sounds like they've essentially appropriated the plans for the Tri-Rail Coastal Link.



What's the benefit to the city? I'm always a bit skeptical about forking over taxpayer money to a private business. Is VTUSA taking any risk in this transaction, or does it have the potential to be one of those situation where, in a few years, a public agency is going to have to take over, and meanwhile the VTUSA executives (and possibly investors) have benefited from the taxpayer-fed cash infusion. Sounds like another case of socializing risk and privatizing benefits.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

JIS would know for sure, but I'm guessing this benefits their property investments somewhere along the route.


----------



## railiner

jadebenn said:


> VTUSA has decided it'd like to operate a commuter service if the city's willing to pay. Sounds like they've essentially appropriated the plans for the Tri-Rail Coastal Link.
> 
> If this actually goes through, the FEC corridor is going to become the most built-up rail ROW in the US outside the NEC. Intercity, commuter, and freight trains, triple (maybe even quad) tracking, and equipped with CTC, ATC, and PTC.
> 
> The FEC trackage was always first-class (ironic for a Class II railroad), but this would put it on a _whole_ 'nother level.


I thought I read that FEC and Tri-Rail were going to 'swap' routes, to run commuter trains on the former, and freight trains on the latter? Is that true?


----------



## jadebenn

railiner said:


> I thought I read that FEC and Tri-Rail were going to 'swap' routes, to run commuter trains on the former, and freight trains on the latter? Is that true?


I'm not familiar with any proposal for that.

In any case, it's certainly not viable now. SFRTA has poured too much investment in its corridor to give it up and start all over again. And can you imagine all the ticked-off Tri-Rail users who would suddenly find themselves miles away from a train stop? It'd be a political nightmare!

Likewise, I don't see what benefit the FEC would get out of a swap. They'd lose all their local customers, for one, and their interests are pretty well-served even with those pesky passenger trains on their rails. The corridor is essentially under joint ownership and management at this point; They've got a stake in what VTUSA does with their tracks.


----------



## jadebenn

MARC Rider said:


> What's the benefit to the city? I'm always a bit skeptical about forking over taxpayer money to a private business. Is VTUSA taking any risk in this transaction, or does it have the potential to be one of those situation where, in a few years, a public agency is going to have to take over, and meanwhile the VTUSA executives (and possibly investors) have benefited from the taxpayer-fed cash infusion. Sounds like another case of socializing risk and privatizing benefits.


I have some misgivings about the deal (mainly about the lack of flexibility if VTUSA proves to be a poor operator), but for the most part it seems to be a fairly standard case of outsourcing.

The most analogous situation that comes to mind is how BNSF and UP are contracted to run Chicago Metra service on lines they own and dispatch. The rolling stock and stations are the agency's, but the underlying right-of-way and the employees are provided by BNSF/UP.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I thought I read that FEC and Tri-Rail were going to 'swap' routes, to run commuter trains on the former, and freight trains on the latter? Is that true?


Only in railfan fantasyland, is what informed people in South Florida and FECR Society tell me. 

Trying to do a swap deal now involved three companies (FECR, VTUSA and FDC) and FDOT/SFRTA. The three companies involved have two masters (Ferromex and FECI/SoftBank), and the very tightly written contracts among the three companies. VTUSA cannot unilaterally do anything, nor can FECR. VTUSA also has first dibs on any passengers service on FECR. FECR is not free to trade that away either.

I think jadebenn is correct in his/her assessment.


----------



## railiner

jadebenn said:


> I'm not familiar with any proposal for that.
> 
> In any case, it's certainly not viable now. SFRTA has poured too much investment in its corridor to give it up and start all over again. And can you imagine all the ticked-off Tri-Rail users who would suddenly find themselves miles away from a train stop? It'd be a political nightmare!
> 
> Likewise, I don't see what benefit the FEC would get out of a swap. They'd lose all their local customers, for one, and their interests are pretty well-served even with those pesky passenger trains on their rails. The corridor is essentially under joint ownership and management at this point; They've got a stake in what VTUSA does with their tracks.





jis said:


> Only in railfan fantasyland, is what informed people in South Florida and FECR Society tell me.
> 
> Trying to do a swap deal now involved three companies (FECR, VTUSA and FDC) and FDOT/SFRTA. The three companies involved have two masters (Ferromex and FECI/SoftBank), and the very tightly written contracts among the three companies. VTUSA cannot unilaterally do anything, nor can FECR. VTUSA also has first dibs on any passengers service on FECR. FECR is not free to trade that away either.
> 
> I think jadebenn is correct in his/her assessment.


Makes sense...so I agree.
I don't know where I got the idea...I thought I I read somewhere that they were installing a connection to allow FEC freights to use the SFRTA route, and vice versa...and then back at the other end...
Must have misunderstood it for something else....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Makes sense...so I agree.
> I don't know where I got the idea...I thought I I read somewhere that they were installing a connection to allow FEC freights to use the SFRTA route, and vice versa...and then back at the other end...
> Must have misunderstood it for something else....


Yes the connection has been built between Mangonia Park and West Palm Beach, but it is unlikely to be used for major move of traffic. It will allow some transfer of cars destined for CSX Yard that happens to come down the FEC, and also provide some access to CSX trains to Port of Miami FECR willing.. It is unlikely to be used for FECR's hot shot trains since the way to get from Tri Rail to FECR's Hialeah Yard is a circuitous one and wil remove the hot from the hotshot.

Also the crossover will allow extension of Tri-Rail Service to Jupiter which is under serious discussion. And of course if some day Amtrak comes down from JAX via FECR, it will aloow them to get back to Tri Rail tracks tog et to their stations in the Miami area.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Yes the connection has been built between Mangonia Park and West Palm Beach, but it is unlikely to be used for major move of traffic. It will allow some transfer of cars destined for CSX Yard that happens to come down the FEC, and also provide some access to CSX trains to Port of Miami FECR willing.. It is unlikely to be used for FECR's hot shot trains since the way to get from Tri Rail to FECR's Hialeah Yard is a circuitous one and wil remove the hot from the hotshot.
> 
> Also the crossover will allow extension of Tri-Rail Service to Jupiter which is under serious discussion. And of course if some day Amtrak comes down from JAX vcia FECR, it will aloow them to get back to Tri Rail tracks tog et to their stations in the Miami area.


Oh, so that's it...thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## west point

Agree with jis. Right now to get CSX freight to FEC in Miami requires CSX to run a transfer train from Hialeah yard on TriRail to just north of Miami TriRail station . Then runs along the CSX track around the east and south side of MIA airport. Now jis will have to correct this but in the past CSX drops the freight cars at the south end of the airport rail interchange. 

Then FEC picks them up and horse shoes around runway 27left on the west side of the airport to the FEC yard. FEC originally went straight to the interchange point but when the runway was extended the FEC had to make a horseshoe around the west end of extended 27L.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Agree with jis. Right now to get CSX freight to FEC in Miami requires CSX to run a transfer train from Hialeah yard on TriRail to just north of Miami TriRail station . Then runs along the CSX track around the east and south side of MIA airport. Now jis will have to correct this but in the past CSX drops the freight cars at the south end of the airport rail interchange.
> 
> Then FEC picks them up and horse shoes around runway 27left on the west side of the airport to the FEC yard. FEC originally went straight to the interchange point but when the runway was extended the FEC had to make a horseshoe around the west end of extended 27L.


Yep, that is the traditional way. Now the other way possible is at Iris interlocking where a connection has been built from Tri Rail southbound to FECR eastbound for Tri Rail access to Miami Central Station. So there will be a bit of a long backup move involved on some very busy trackage somewhere in the process, which of course, neither FECR nor TriRail will appreciate during the busy day time.


----------



## west point

jis yes did consider Iris as not viable . However last time there it was just one track for TriRail . Have often wondered if the connection was rather tight, the second TriRail track assume was placed on the east side of the original track ? Easy to string line a long freight ? Did that connection put new track connecting to the original yard tail track ? 

With as much traffic across the Iris 4 diamonds cannot imagine the delays that occur for both FEC and TriRail. A back up FEC freight would probably be at restricted speeds across Iris.


----------



## Palmetto

Just east of IRIS, there are three tracks, the northern track seeming to be an industrial siding. There is plenty of room on the ROW to accomodate the extention of this third track eastward to accommodate a longer train., if need be. I have no idea what the length of a normal transfer train is, though. The current length of the third track might even be enough.

FEC does not run THAT many trains that an overnight move [to avoid Tri-Rail] would seem feasible to me. Moves like this often have a caboose or a plaform car for a crewman to relay signal indications and grade crossing functioning to the engineer. And it's two tracks all the way to the FEC yard from IRIS, giving further flexibility to the move.

Google Maps seems to show that a backup move of a mile or so would be necessary. Not that bad, IMO.


----------



## AGM.12

This may be off topic, but what is the word, if any, about CSX shedding the Homestead and Auburndale subs?


----------



## Palmetto

The lower part of the Homestead Subdivision is being abandoned, basically from the Gold Coast Museum south to the end of the line in Homestead. Personally, I am disappointed that the proposed commuter rail on this line did not get started. It runs right through Kendall, a highly populated area southwest of the city of Miami. And it would've provided a one seat ride to the city for those folks, as well as for residents of Florida City and Homestead.

I don't have an answer for the Auburndale Subdivision.


----------



## jis

AGM.12 said:


> This may be off topic, but what is the word, if any, about CSX shedding the Homestead and Auburndale subs?


There has been some noise in the rumor mill but nothing concrete from CSX as far as the Auburndale Sub is concerned. At one point there was a solid enough rumor about FECR+Brightline being interested in it for it to be raised at an FECRS Annual Meeting. Actually the FECR Chief Counsel was asked the question. Being a good cCounsel he gave and appropriate legal mumble mumble answer which was relatively content free but nice sounding. Nothing has been heard of it since. I can ask around and see if there has been any movement that the FECRS folks are aware of.

In that same time frame CSX dumped the Florida portion of the JAX - NOL route into the laps of a short line.


----------



## DSS&A

Ever since the Federal government built the "free" U.S. Highway system, and then the "free" Interstate Highway System, the private railroads have not been able to make money on many passenger train routes. Taxpayer funds have also been spent to pay for building the airports and air traffic control system for the private airlines, which have taken more passengers off of the private trains. (Federal taxpayer are paying 20.6 Billion of the 35 Billion cost - NextGen – FAQs ) Airlines would NOT be "profitable" if it wasn't for the HUGE taxpayer funds spent every year on aviation.

Federal tax dollars spent on competing modes of transportation necessitate the taxpayers also pay for passenger train transportation services.

Also, one of the top US Post Office officials who was involved in the project to transfer the mail off of the trains to the airlines was given a Vice-President position at one of the major airlines after the mail was switched to the airlines. This removed more profitable revenue off of the passenger trains.


----------



## jadebenn

I found a very interesting quote in this Railway Age article.



> Abrams also expressed concern that Tri-Rail would not be able to use the Miami Central Station (MCS) as planned, because of potential issues with Positive Train Control (PTC): “Now that [VTUSA] has suspended operations, SFRTA has no assurances when it will be able to access the FECR Corridor and the MCS. [VTUSA] is no longer subject to the deadline of Dec. 31, 2020 to implement the federally mandated PTC system because it is not operating its service. *Further, it is our understanding that [VTUSA] has recently elected to change the type of PTC system it was originally installing*.”



A new PTC system? Are they switching away from E-ATC? To what? Certainly not I-ETMS, I'd imagine.


----------



## sttom

I still don't get why we didn't design one PTC system for nationwide implementation other than that is not how we do things in the US. This is one of those times where you don't want an exciting and unique system. You want a boring system that works for decades without human interaction.


----------



## jadebenn

sttom said:


> I still don't get why we didn't design one PTC system for nationwide implementation other than that is not how we do things in the US. This is one of those times where you don't want an exciting and unique system. You want a boring system that works for decades without human interaction.


Few reasons:

One: Congress didn't want to hand out a monopoly by mandating a specific system.

Two: The needs of the railroads are different.

I mean reason two is the whole reason that I'd eat my hat if this was I-ETMS, because I-ETMS is a poor man's (or rather, cheapskate's) PTC. It _works_, but the whole design is centered around having as little wayside equipment as possible. Good if you're a 1,000+ mile Class I begrudgingly fulfilling a legislative PTC mandate. Not so good if you're operating outside of your typical Class I's performance envelope. There's a reason Amtrak sticks to ACSES and ITCS on their higher-speed lines. I don't think I-ETMS is even certified for speeds above 79 mph.

If we'd had a single national PTC system, I'd wager that system would've looked a lot like I-ETMS. The Class I freight railroads would've always been looking at ways to drive the cost down, even at the expense of capacity or speed, and they're the biggest stakeholders.


----------



## nullptr

jadebenn said:


> Few reasons:
> 
> One: Congress didn't want to hand out a monopoly by mandating a specific system.
> 
> Two: The needs of the railroads are different.
> 
> I mean reason two is the whole reason that I'd eat my hat if this was I-ETMS, because I-ETMS is a poor man's (or rather, cheapskate's) PTC. It _works_, but the whole design is centered around having as little wayside equipment as possible. Good if you're a 1,000+ mile Class I begrudgingly fulfilling a legislative PTC mandate. Not so good if you're operating outside of your typical Class I's performance envelope. There's a reason Amtrak sticks to ACSES and ITCS on their higher-speed lines. I don't think I-ETMS is even certified for speeds above 79 mph.
> 
> If we'd had a single national PTC system, I'd wager that system would've looked a lot like I-ETMS. The Class I freight railroads would've always been looking at ways to drive the cost down, even at the expense of capacity or speed, and they're the biggest stakeholders.




How hungry are you? 









Wabtec to implement PTC system for Virgin Trains USAWabtec to implement PTC system for Virgin Trains USA - Railway Track and Structures


Wabtec secures agreements worth $120M to implement signaling and train control systems for Virgin Trains USA. The project is a unique high-speed signaling and train control application for the North America market.




www.rtands.com





Edit to say I don't disagree with anything you said, I don't have much knowledge on PTC implementations. Just found the timing of this news amusing.


----------



## jadebenn

Well I'm eating my words. Why did they go with I-ETMS when they already had an ATC installation? Maybe they wanted to reduce the costs on the new lines? That's the only reason I can think of.


----------



## jis

jadebenn said:


> Well I'm eating my words. Why did they go with I-ETMS when they already had an ATC installation? Maybe they wanted to reduce the costs on the new lines? That's the only reason I can think of.


Basically availability of an off the shelf system and the I part becomes important as they go with inter-operation with other systems - SFRTA in South Florida and potentially CFRC in Central Florida for passenger and CSX and NS for freight interchange with run through power without needing an FEC pilot at JAX interchange for freight.

They actually withdrew their application using eATC and will submit a new application using I-ETMS. It will be a while before Brightline/Virgin Trains runs again I would imagine, depending on how soon Wabtec can get it up and running and tested between Miami and WPB. Of course I-ETMS will be an overlay on their current signaling system which is based on track circuits which I understand they are keeping in place for train detection and integrity verification.


----------



## jadebenn

jis said:


> Basically availability of an off the shelf system and the I part becomes important as they go with inter-operation with other systems - SFRTA in South Florida and potentially CFRC in Central Florida for passenger and CSX and NS for freight interchange with run through power without needing an FEC pilot at JAX interchange for freight.
> 
> They actually withdrew their application using eATC and will submit a new application using I-ETMS. It will be a while before Brightline/Virgin Trains runs again I would imagine, depending on how soon Wabtec can get it up and running and tested between Miami and WPB. Of course I-ETMS will be an overlay on their current signaling system which is based on track circuits which I understand they are keeping in place for train detection and integrity verification.


I don't think interoperability factors in much here. I don't see much potential for foreign power on the FEC, and SFRTA was previously planning to equip some of their fleet with both system for Downtown Link operations. But perhaps I'm not thinking "big picture" enough.

Will they be tearing out the underlying ATC when they're done? Or will it be a hybrid system?


----------



## jis

Now no one has to equip any fleet with both systems. FECR really had very little reason to keep their one of a kind system around. Think of this as an overall reduction of cost of operation.

They will keep the track circuit based signaling system and integrate it into I-ETMS to provide the ATC functionality. Apparently enhancing their ATC to so called eATC to comply with PTC regulations proved to be a bridge too far to do in a cost effective way. I am sure FECR, Brightline, FDC, SFRTA and FDOT sat down together and had a chat about what is the most cost effective way to put an infrastructure in place that will serve future needs, which BTW does include cross operation of freight train on FECR and on CSX (or whoever happens to be the then owner of the Auburndale to West Palm Beach Line) and of course SFRTA. That is why they spent all that money to build the two way crossover in WPB.


----------



## jadebenn

Yeah, I suppose it's rational. It's just a shame to see the end of one of the FEC's most unique features. What other Class II has a full ATC system with cab signalling, after all.


----------



## DSS&A

Railroad tracks have been installed on Orlando Airport property and news updated on Nrightline and other nearby project:









Orlando airport moving ahead with Virgin tracks, new main road entrance


Orlando International Airport has been getting major upgrades, resulting in a lot of raw dirt, construction vehicles and traffic cones, but under conditions eased by the pandemic’s reduction of travelers and traffic.




www.orlandosentinel.com


----------



## joelkfla

DSS&A said:


> Railroad tracks have been installed on Orlando Airport property and news updated on Nrightline and other nearby project:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orlando airport moving ahead with Virgin tracks, new main road entrance
> 
> 
> Orlando International Airport has been getting major upgrades, resulting in a lot of raw dirt, construction vehicles and traffic cones, but under conditions eased by the pandemic’s reduction of travelers and traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.orlandosentinel.com


At the end of the article, it says the track that has been laid to date is not for revenue service, but just between the station and the maintenance facility.

The article also says a section of track will be in a trench at surficial aquifer level. I wonder if flooding will delay reopening following tropical cyclones.


----------



## west point

joelkfla said:


> At the end of the article, it says the track that has been laid to date is not for revenue service, but just between the station and the maintenance facility.
> 
> The article also says a section of track will be in a trench at surficial aquifer level. I wonder if flooding will delay reopening following tropical cyclones.



If Brightline does it correctly they will prove some kind of flood wall, gates, pumps etc to prevent that.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> If Brightline does it correctly they will prove some kind of flood wall, gates, pumps etc to prevent that.


Yeah, in this day and age, if built properly it should be a complete non-issue.


----------



## jis

The disagreements between Miami-Dade and Virgin are starting to proceed in a direction that might result in less, not more rail service around Miami.






Commuter Trains: Can Negotiations Stay on Track?


Virgin uses TriRail as bargaining chip for deals




biscaynetimes.com


----------



## west point

Wonder if the Virgin bankruptcy will change the name of Brightline ? Virgin might have to sell the naming rights to a buyer by the bankruptcy court.


----------



## frequentflyer

Florida Luxury Train Cuts Branson Ties, Drops Virgin Name


The company had entered into a branding deal with Virgin in advance of a planned initial public offering, which was scrapped indefinitely on pricing day in February 2019.




www.bloomberg.com





Back to Brightline


----------



## chrsjrcj

It sounds like Virgin never paid Brightline even pre-pandemic. 

I prefer the Brightline branding over Virgin Trains, so I'm not sad to see it go even though operationally they still referred to themselves as Brightline and the only mention of Virgin from a passenger perspective was at Virgin MiamiCentral.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> It sounds like Virgin never paid Brightline even pre-pandemic.


Why would Virgin pay Brightline for Brightline to use the Virgin brand? It is Brightline that used to pay Virgin a licensing fee to use the brand.

A Virgin Group subsidiary invested in Brightline something like 3% of the total investment capital of Brightline, and that happened when the deal closed. It is likely that Virgin Group still holds that asset. The deal also included certain restrictions on Brightline regarding what kinds of business it could enter into or not using the Virgin brand. That part of course has gone away as has the license fee payment since Brightline is not using the Virgin brand anymore.

Virgin Atlantic's bankruptcy tainted the brand thus breaking part of the conditions of the original branding agreement between the two companies. So Brightline terminated the deal last month when they learned about the forthcoming bankruptcy application. Virgin Atlantic needed to file for Chapter 15 bankruptcy as part of a restructuring deal in the UK to keep the company together through the pandemic.

Interestingly Brightline is unlikely to operate any commercial service until sometime next year possibly, after the new I-ETMS PTC system is installed and certified. At present Brightline FDC and FECR have no application for PTC approval in place with FRA. They withdrew their previous eATC based application. They have a contract with Wabtec to install I-ETMS as an overlay on their track circuit based signaling system.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I was unsure if Virgin ever made the investment in Brightline after the IPO never happened.


----------



## joelkfla

Does this kill the cruise terminal connection?


----------



## railiner

joelkfla said:


> Does this kill the cruise terminal connection?


I don't think it should....Virgin Voyages would have represented a miniscule percentage of the total cruises from the port of Miami...
Or, from Port Canaveral, if they ever built to that...


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> I was unsure if Virgin ever made the investment in Brightline after the IPO never happened.


Ah! Got it.


railiner said:


> I don't think it should....Virgin Voyages would have represented a miniscule percentage of the total cruises from the port of Miami...
> Or, from Port Canaveral, if they ever built to that...


Building anything to Port Canaveral is an extremely non-trivial and expensive exercise which is unlikely to come to pass in the foreseeable future. Any Port Canaveral access will most likely be via bus from the Cocoa-Rockledge station.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Interestingly Brightline is unlikely to operate any commercial service until sometime next year possibly, after the new I-ETMS PTC system is installed and certified. At present Brightline FDC and FECR have no application for PTC approval in place with FRA. They withdrew their previous eATC based application. They have a contract with Wabtec to install I-ETMS as an overlay on their track circuit based signaling system.



Brightline must have very deep pockets if it can afford to wait that long without generating any revenue, all while maintaing costly assets, servicing loans, and while the clock is ticking on depreciation.

Retaining customers is also about retaining travelling habits, and the more you force them to look into alternative travel arrangements, the less likely they are to return when you need them.

If i was Brightline I would attempt to bring at least a skeletal service back asap, if only to retain vital customers and staff.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Brightline must have very deep pockets if it can afford to wait that long without generating any revenue, all while maintaing costly assets, servicing loans, and while the clock is ticking on depreciation.
> 
> Retaining customers is also about retaining travelling habits, and the more you force them to look into alternative travel arrangements, the less likely they are to return when you need them.
> 
> If i was Brightline I would attempt to bring at least a skeletal service back asap, if only to retain vital customers and staff.


They cannot run passenger trains anymore until they have PTC, which they won't until early next year at the earliest. So the question is entirely moot.

I have actually wondered if it is costing them any more in their current state with no employees and no service, vs. hundreds of employees and skeletal service with few passengers.

We have always known that they have deep pockets to lay the groundwork for better development of their real estate business, which is what this is all about. They are a real estate company with a railroad attached, as far as their Florida operations are concerned.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

cirdan said:


> If i was Brightline I would attempt to bring at least a skeletal service back asap, if only to retain vital customers and staff.




43% of the Florida's Covid 19 cases are in the counties that currently Brightline serve. I wouldn't want to be the person approving to resume the service only for large amounts of my staff to catch it. 

I think the person backing Brightline co-owns an NBA basketball team and one of the major European soccer clubs.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> We have always known that they have deep pockets to lay the groundwork for better development of their real estate business, which is what this is all about. They are a real estate company with a railroad attached, as far as their Florida operations are concerned.


Isn't that how Henry M. Flagler got started in Florida?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Isn't that how Henry M. Flagler got started in Florida?


The old tradition continues in more ways than people realize. The name of the company now is Fortress Group, instead of FEC. FECI is a subsidiary of Fortress Group and Brightline is a subsidiary of FECI.

Notice that the deal was actually between Virgin Group and Fortress Group, and apparently Fortress pulled the plug.


----------



## Eric S

McIntyre2K7 said:


> 43% of the Florida's Covid 19 cases are in the counties that currently Brightline serve. I wouldn't want to be the person approving to resume the service only for large amounts of my staff to catch it.
> 
> I think the person backing Brightline co-owns an NBA basketball team and one of the major European soccer clubs.


Wes Edens - Milwaukee Bucks


----------



## lordsigma

jadebenn said:


> Yeah, I suppose it's rational. It's just a shame to see the end of one of the FEC's most unique features. What other Class II has a full ATC system with cab signalling, after all.


It makes sense to keep and maintain the ATC with cab signaling and electronically integrate it into I-ETMS as jis is describing. In cab signal territory if you integrate the cab signals as an input into the I-ETMS on board computer cab codes can be used as the main source for wayside status on intermediate signal aspects and mainline switch position status which can cut down on the amount of wayside communications equipment you need to install for I-ETMS depending on how they decide to configure the implementation. For more info: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FRA-2010-0060-0047


----------



## jadebenn

lordsigma said:


> It makes sense to keep and maintain the ATC with cab signaling and electronically integrate it into I-ETMS as jis is describing. In cab signal territory if you integrate the cab signals as an input into the I-ETMS on board computer cab codes can be used as the main source for wayside status on intermediate signal aspects and mainline switch position status which can cut down on the amount of wayside communications equipment you need to install for I-ETMS depending on how they decide to configure the implementation. For more info: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FRA-2010-0060-0047


Seems like that wouldn't satisfy interoperability requirements. But you seem more knowledgeable about this than I do. Would there be any issue with running foreign power in lead if they chose that route?

Also, updated link:





Regulations.gov







beta.regulations.gov


----------



## jis

jadebenn said:


> Seems like that wouldn't satisfy interoperability requirements. But you seem more knowledgeable about this than I do. Would there be any issue with running foreign power in lead if they chose that route?


That would be fine as long as the back office makes sure that the equivalent information is carried in the I-ETMS protocol messages too. It is OK to provide more information to engines equipped with a more capable system than I-ETMS, as long as the I-ETMS protocol is not violated. 

This is how I-ETMS operates on some segments of the NEC. The maximum speed of I-ETMS trains are severly restricted compared to the max speed of ACSES II equipped trains. As long I-ETMS equipped engines are able to operate PTC needs are met. Does not prevent Acelas and Amtrak and other passenger trains in general not using I-ETMS and using their own system.

However, FECR I think is only retaining the track circuit based train location and integrity detection, and just feeding that information into their back office to integrate into the I-ETMS system. Signal aspects are fed from the signals into the back office.


----------



## lordsigma

jadebenn said:


> Seems like that wouldn't satisfy interoperability requirements. But you seem more knowledgeable about this than I do. Would there be any issue with running foreign power in lead if they chose that route?
> 
> Also, updated link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regulations.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beta.regulations.gov


As the document suggests the wayside segment of an I-ETMS implementation can be configured three different ways. With wayside signal interface units that use data radio, with cab signals, and through wayside to office to locomotive communications (office-connected.) If you use the cab signals approach you rely on cab signal integration to the I-ETMS On board computer for status on track circuits, intermediate signal points, mainline switchs, and anything else tied into it etc. The cab signal method of operation does still require WIUs or an office communications method to relay absolute stop/not stop status and route information at control points to facilitate the I-ETMS positive stop and civil speed enforcement through the switch along with any other switches/signals/devices that are not tied in with the cab signal system and have to be monitored. Using that approach requires the cab signal unit to be connected to the I-ETMS on board computer and I-ETMS will cut out if cab signals are cut out. Obviously that approach has interoperability limitations as equipment on that territory would have to have cab signals. You also can go with a total overlay approach and use the office connected or WIU approach with cab signal integration on top of it. All depends on what the railroad has and how much they want to spend. It sounds like FECR is probably going with an office connected approach with maybe adding the cab signal integration but not sure.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> As the document suggests the wayside segment of an I-ETMS implementation can be configured three different ways. With wayside signal interface units that use data radio, with cab signals, and through wayside to office to locomotive communications (office-connected.)



I found the following in Amtrak's PTC Implementation Plan:

On the Northeast Corridor I-ETMS® trains will be equipped with on-board cab signal
systems. A WIU will only be required at each interlocking since signal speed
enforcement can be determined by the cab signal received through the rails. The WIU at
the interlocking will provide the functionality as above.

Looks like that's the approach Amtrak took.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> That would be fine as long as the back office makes sure that the equivalent information is carried in the I-ETMS protocol messages too. It is OK to provide more information to engines equipped with a more capable system than I-ETMS, as long as the I-ETMS protocol is not violated.
> 
> This is how I-ETMS operates on some segments of the NEC. The maximum speed of I-ETMS trains are severly restricted compared to the max speed of ACSES II equipped trains. As long I-ETMS equipped engines are able to operate PTC needs are met. Does not prevent Acelas and Amtrak and other passenger trains in general not using I-ETMS and using their own system.
> 
> However, FECR I think is only retaining the track circuit based train location and integrity detection, and just feeding that information into their back office to integrate into the I-ETMS system. Signal aspects are fed from the signals into the back office.



The idiot part of I-ETMS was the attempt to rely on GPS, which isn't precise enough to be useful. If I-ETMS can be fed information from track circuits, it should actually work pretty well.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Tampa station sites finally under consideration with a MOU between Brightline and a local developer. All 3 sites are near Tampa Union Station just east of downtown Tampa. The former Tampa Park Apartments, TECO Gasworks, and the location considered for a baseball stadium a few years ago. No financial committment yet but does allow for environmental planning to begin now that potential sites have been selected.

https://www.bizjournals.com/tampaba...tline-darryl-shaw-ybor-city-rail-station.html

Fair use extract:

The MOU, which was finalized over the weekend, is non-binding and does not represent a financial commitment from either party, Shaw told the Business Journal. What it does do is allow Brightline to proceed with an environmental analysis, which must be completed before a Tampa station could move forward. 

Shaw said his ideal vision is a multimodal transit station on one of the properties under discussion — a place where rail lines, bus rapid transit, streetcar and trolley service converge.

"That area is at the intersection between downtown, Channelside, Water Street and Ybor," Shaw said. "Everything converges there and it’s approximate to Union Station and you could see some transit-oriented development there, so it all seems to come together. I’d love to see all of that come together right in that vicinity."


----------



## Qapla

The TECO site looks to be ideal since the Amtrak tracks are right there the other rails are near enough to join them to an intermodal station.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Qapla said:


> The TECO site looks to be ideal since the Amtrak tracks are right there the other rails are near enough to join them to an intermodal station.


But I wonder if the TECO site is large enough for 1000 ft long platforms and associated real estate development? Maybe that site could be combined with the site just east of it across Channelside Drive to make the infrastructure fit? That would allow for street level connections with the existing trolley running along Channelside in between the two properties. Otherwise, the Tampa Park Apartment site on the west/north side of the CSX tracks seems a better fit as it has the length to allow for 1000ft platforms and room for buildings much like the Miami Central station site does.

The article does say Mr. Shaw wants to allow for a potential future baseball stadium on his property (that was originally the site east of Channelside back in 2017, but may change now?).


----------



## Brian_tampa

Also, there is this news item from back in February when Brightline denied any involvement with the Tampa Park Apartment sale to Darryl Shaw. Seems they have indeed formed a new partnership since then.

Brightline: Reported sale of Tampa Park Apartments ‘isn’t related to us’


----------



## chrsjrcj

Surprised the Channelside site (where there is a freight yard) isn't under consideration. Lot's of development going on there. I haven't been to Tampa in about 10 years and every time I look on Google Earth there's more construction!


----------



## joelkfla

Orlando TV station reported that Brightline has received a US DOT grant for construction of a Boca Raton station.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

chrsjrcj said:


> Surprised the Channelside site (where there is a freight yard) isn't under consideration. Lot's of development going on there. I haven't been to Tampa in about 10 years and every time I look on Google Earth there's more construction!



That was recently sold last year to Tampa Bay Lightning Owner Jeff Vinik (his property group). The Con Agra plant that is there will be moved to an area south of Tampa. 









Water Street Tampa developers buy ConAgra flour mill for future expansion of their $3 billion project


TAMPA — In a deal that will sweep away one of downtown Tampa's last vestiges of heavy industry, the development company for Jeff Vinik and Cascade Investment on Friday paid $13 million to buy the...




www.tampabay.com


----------



## jruff001

What's wrong with the current Tampa Union Station? Seems to be plenty of room there and it is a bit closer to the downtown central business district than these three sites are.


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> What's wrong with the current Tampa Union Station? Seems to be plenty of room there and it is a bit closer to the downtown central business district than these three sites are.


I suspect the issue would be ownership of property and opportunity for real estate development as part of the station.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

jruff001 said:


> What's wrong with the current Tampa Union Station? Seems to be plenty of room there and it is a bit closer to the downtown central business district than these three sites are.



If they use the other sites there's a possibility that they can connect the TECO Streetcar to the station. There are plans to extend the streetcar as well through downtown and into Tampa Heights (just north of Downtown Tampa). It would travel up and down a large corridor as well (Tampa St and Florida Ave). They are updating one of the platforms at Tampa Union Station as well. Plus I could see Tampa Union Station become crowded because it would be Amtrak, Tampa's Future line from the USF Area to Downtown to South Tampa/MacDill AFB, commuter line and Brightline.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> I suspect the issue would be ownership of property and opportunity for real estate development as part of the station.


Any idea who actually owns that land?

I see a lot of development opportunity. Right across the street (Nebraska Ave.) are several huge blocks of parking lots screaming for a better use (they are on the way to downtown, too). Also seems like lots of opportunity along Nuccio Pkwy too which is a wide, underused road, and I understand the public housing on the other side of it is slated to be torn down.

Plus Union Station would tie in to the whole Water Street development better than the other sites - just a very short walk away down a very wide, walkable sidewalk along Meridian.



McIntyre2K7 said:


> If they use the other sites there's a possibility that they can connect the TECO Streetcar to the station. There are plans to extend the streetcar as well through downtown and into Tampa Heights (just north of Downtown Tampa). It would travel up and down a large corridor as well (Tampa St and Florida Ave). They are updating one of the platforms at Tampa Union Station as well. Plus I could see Tampa Union Station become crowded because it would be Amtrak, Tampa's Future line from the USF Area to Downtown to South Tampa/MacDill AFB, commuter line and Brightline.


The TECO Streetcar is frankly a joke as actual transit. More like a hardly-used tourist attraction. It is also pretty close to Union Station and could be directly connected very easily as you mentioned - instead of going down Channelside Drive from Ybor it could parallel the existing track from Ybor, go right through Union Station and then use the existing rail (or at least ROW) down Meridian to the arena area and hook up with the current route to the convention center.

In its heyday (i.e., pre-Amtrak) I think Union Station was six if not eight tracks. Plenty of room for a daily Amtrak Silver Star and a Brightline or two per hour. I don't see Tampa commuter rail happening in my lifetime - it is not realistically even on the radar yet and the local population seems dead-set against spending any money on such a nanny-state / socialist endeavor - but there would still be room for several tracks for that if/when people in the area ever wake up to the fact that lack of public transit is holding back the area from attracting more jobs.


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> Any idea who actually owns that land?
> 
> I see a lot of development opportunity. Right across the street (Nebraska Ave.) are several huge blocks of parking lots screaming for a better use (they are on the way to downtown, too). Also seems like lots of opportunity along Nuccio Pkwy too which is a wide, underused road, and I understand the public housing on the other side of it is slated to be torn down.
> 
> Plus Union Station would tie in to the whole Water Street development better than the other sites - just a very short walk away down a very wide, walkable sidewalk along Meridian.


I have no idea who owns what, except as one can guess from what the folks who have their money on the line are saying they are considering.

No amount of indignation expressed here on this board will change anyting. The only thing that can affect these decsions are (a) talking directly to someone that you know at Brightline. This worked well for us in Brevard County, or (b) take advantage of all the public reviews to bring up objections, or (c) finding someone among the local government officials who have approval/denial thereof power for permits. Though I suspecy on this one one, money may trump objections that do not come with equivalent financial package attached, based on past experience,


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> No amount of indigantoj expressed here on this board will change anyting. The only thing that can affect these decsions are (a) talking directly to someone that you know at Brightline. This worked well for us in Brevard County, or (b) take advantage of all the public reviews to bring up objections, or (c) finding someone among the local government officials who have approval/denial thereof power for permits. Though I suspecy on this one one, money may trump objections that do not come with equivalent financial package attached, based on past experience,


LOL true. I am not indignant (I think that is what the "indignantoj" typo is?) as to me it is all pie-in-the-sky anyway. I don't see Brightline ever making it to Tampa or frankly surviving at all long-term. I hope I am wrong but the financials are pretty horrible and at some point OPM (Other People's Money) runs out.


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> LOL true. I am not indignant (I think that is what the "indignantoj" typo is?) as to me it is all pie-in-the-sky anyway. I don't see Brightline ever making it to Tampa or frankly surviving at all long-term. I hope I am wrong but the financials are pretty horrible and at some point OPM (Other People's Money) runs out.


Ah, so we should not take anything your write about Brightline, other than it will collapse, too seriously then? Since if it will collapse the rest of it does not matter, does it?


----------



## McIntyre2K7

> The TECO Streetcar is frankly a joke as actual transit. More like a hardly-used tourist attraction. It is also pretty close to Union Station and could be directly connected very easily as you mentioned - instead of going down Channelside Drive from Ybor it could parallel the existing track from Ybor, go right through Union Station and then use the existing rail (or at least ROW) down Meridian to the arena area and hook up with the current route to the convention center.
> 
> In its heyday (i.e., pre-Amtrak) I think Union Station was six if not eight tracks. Plenty of room for a daily Amtrak Silver Star and a Brightline or two per hour. I don't see Tampa commuter rail happening in my lifetime - it is not realistically even on the radar yet and the local population seems dead-set against spending any money on such a nanny-state / socialist endeavor - but there would still be room for several tracks for that if/when people in the area ever wake up to the fact that lack of public transit is holding back the area from attracting more jobs.



Hardly used??? FDOT gave them a 2.6 million dollar grant so it's free to ride the streetcar until October 2021. Ridership has gone up and the service has increased from every 20 minutes to every 15 minutes. The voters did vote on the half cent sales tax increase that funds public transportation and improves roads last year. It's currently being held up as one of the Hillsborough County Commissioners decided to sue. We are waiting on the Florida Supreme Court to make a decision about it. 

Also the FRA prohibits the streetcar from using the same rails as that CSX and Amtrak use so that's out of the question. Plus the rail down Meridian is going to be pulled up one Con Agra (Ardent Mills) has been moved. So your idea of the street car stopping at Tampa Union Station wont work. They are moving the Museum of Science and Industry from the USF area to the Waterstreet area so hopefully it will bring more foot traffic. 


Here are the numbers from the this Fiscal Year 

*Month**Ridership* October 60,486November85,663December89,930January97,718February89,579March56,142April14,078May22,289June 16,472July 31,221

Pasco County has talked about running a commuter rail line from the Land O Lakes Area (just north of Tampa) to Downtown Tampa.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> Ah, so we should not take anything your write about Brightline, other than it will collapse, too seriously then? Since if it will collapse the rest of it does not matter, does it?


I think my posts should be taken as seriously as those posts speculating whether an Amtrak Chicago - Florida train should go through Evansville vs Cincinnati.  

Perhaps the rest of this discussion should be moved to the Tampa thread in the Southeast sub-forum. Can a moderator move it, if that would be appropriate?



McIntyre2K7 said:


> Hardly used??? FDOT gave them a 2.6 million dollar grant so it's free to ride the streetcar until October 2021. Ridership has gone up and the service has increased from every 20 minutes to every 15 minutes.


Yes, hardly used, even though it is free! I see them frequently, and they are often almost completely empty; sometimes maybe a couple of people are on them. They can be crowded occasionally if there is an event going on downtown or in Ybor. Other than that, in terms of anyone using the regularly to commute or something, that just doesn't happen. The routing isn't favorable for that, and they travel at literally walking speed. They are cute but useless. With the ridership numbers you posted, 60,000/month (to pick a midpoint) is only 2,000/day, and the average ride is probably what, a mile? (The whole system is maybe two miles?) Hardly a "mass transit" system.



> The voters did vote on the half cent sales tax increase that funds public transportation and improves roads last year. It's currently being held up as one of the Hillsborough County Commissioners decided to sue. We are waiting on the Florida Supreme Court to make a decision about it.


It will all go to roads. The opposition to it for transit purposes was depressing. Lack of good transit is the Tampa Bay area's Achilles heel if the region ever wants to be more than second-tier but most of the locals are too shortsighted to realize it.



> Also the FRA prohibits the streetcar from using the same rails as that CSX and Amtrak use so that's out of the question. Plus the rail down Meridian is going to be pulled up one Con Agra (Ardent Mills) has been moved. So your idea of the street car stopping at Tampa Union Station wont work.


I wasn't suggesting sharing tracks. Just run the streetcar track parallel to the CSX line from the E 3rd Ave. traffic circle in Ybor (where it now crosses CSX) to Union Station. And yes I know the plan is currently to pull up the Ardent Mills rail. I am saying change that plan (which was only announced last year I believe) and convert that track to the streetcar track. It is so head-slappingly obvious: the track and RoW are ALREADY THERE; the current user and CSX customer is closing down; the current owner (CSX) want to abandon the track once its customer stops using it; and it is early enough in the process to change the plan. Perfect opportunity! Rarely does all that come into alignment.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

jruff001 said:


> Yes, hardly used, even though it is free! I see them frequently, and they are often almost completely empty; sometimes maybe a couple of people are on them. They can be crowded occasionally if there is an event going on downtown or in Ybor. Other than that, in terms of anyone using the regularly to commute or something, that just doesn't happen. The routing isn't favorable for that, and they travel at literally walking speed. They are cute but useless. With the ridership numbers you posted, 60,000/month (to pick a midpoint) is only 2,000/day, and the average ride is probably what, a mile? (The whole system is maybe two miles?) Hardly a "mass transit" system.



I'm not calling it a mass transit system however ridership has improved since it was free. Here are the plans for the extension and modernization:



http://www.gohart.org/Board%20PDFs/Project%20Briefing%20Presentation.pdf





> It will all go to roads. The opposition to it for transit purposes was depressing. Lack of good transit is the Tampa Bay area's Achilles heel if the region ever wants to be more than second-tier but most of the locals are too shortsighted to realize it.



That is incorrect. HART gets 45% of the sales tax that can be used for expanding bus services and purchasing right of way for other types of transit. The County commission voted 4-3 to restore the amounts to what voters wanted. Now it's up to the Florida Supreme Court. 



> I wasn't suggesting sharing tracks. Just run the streetcar track parallel to the CSX line from the E 3rd Ave. traffic circle in Ybor (where it now crosses CSX) to Union Station. And yes I know the plan is currently to pull up the Ardent Mills rail. I am saying change that plan (which was only announced last year I believe) and convert that track to the streetcar track. It is so head-slappingly obvious: the track and RoW are ALREADY THERE; the current user and CSX customer is closing down; the current owner (CSX) want to abandon the track once its customer stops using it; and it is early enough in the process to change the plan. Perfect opportunity! Rarely does all that come into alignment.



While it may seem like a good option Vinik and his company are planning on using that land for retail and residential. I know HART paid over $500,000 this year just for insurance when crossing the A-Line near 4th Ave. I think local leaders want Union Station as a hub for the local and commuter rail lines (if they ever happen). I wouldn't be shocked if they put an imitative on the ballot for baseball stadium funding along with starting a local rail line.


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## neroden

Brian_tampa said:


> Tampa station sites finally under consideration with a MOU between Brightline and a local developer. All 3 sites are near Tampa Union Station just east of downtown Tampa. The former Tampa Park Apartments, TECO Gasworks, and the location considered for a baseball stadium a few years ago. No financial committment yet but does allow for environmental planning to begin now that potential sites have been selected.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/tampaba...tline-darryl-shaw-ybor-city-rail-station.html


If they're going to be THAT close to Tampa Union Station, it would make sense to use Tampa Union Station as a headhouse. (I recognize that track & platform issues would require essentially new tracks and platforms, and the tracks would have to be separate and presumably elevated to get around the freight track which heads south to Ardent Mills and the one which heads west to Port Tampa City. Elevated is a good thing in Florida in any case.) Tampa Union Station is owned by the city & a nonprofit so they'll be cooperative.

I was initially assuming they'd stay up by 21st/22nd Sts. to avoid the need for troublesome property acquisitions and flyovers, and make it easier to head west later. If they're going to work their way south to be that close to Tampa Union Station, I don't see a lot of reasons not to use it, unless they want to continue past Tampa to Tampa Airport or St Petersburg.

They'd still need this property to get there, of course.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> If they're going to be THAT close to Tampa Union Station, it would make sense to use Tampa Union Station as a headhouse. (I recognize that track & platform issues would require essentially new tracks and platforms, and the tracks would have to be separate and presumably elevated to get around the freight track which heads south to Ardent Mills and the one which heads west to Port Tampa City. Elevated is a good thing in Florida in any case.) Tampa Union Station is owned by the city & a nonprofit so they'll be cooperative.
> 
> I was initially assuming they'd stay up by 21st/22nd Sts. to avoid the need for troublesome property acquisitions and flyovers, and make it easier to head west later. If they're going to work their way south to be that close to Tampa Union Station, I don't see a lot of reasons not to use it, unless they want to continue past Tampa to Tampa Airport or St Petersburg.
> 
> They'd still need this property to get there, of course.


It would be a big departure from their current stations, which feature an upscale modern casual design. Judging by their existing stations, Brightline would probably want an exclusive controlled-access waiting area with comfortable seating and modern conveniences (like plentiful charge points), and a dedicated first class lounge. Would all that fit within the existing head house, without destroying the historical character?


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## chrsjrcj

Isn’t TUS getting high level platforms (if they haven’t already)?


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## McIntyre2K7

chrsjrcj said:


> Isn’t TUS getting high level platforms (if they haven’t already)?


The first high level platform is almost complete.


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## neroden

joelkfla said:


> It would be a big departure from their current stations, which feature an upscale modern casual design. Judging by their existing stations, Brightline would probably want an exclusive controlled-access waiting area with comfortable seating and modern conveniences (like plentiful charge points), and a dedicated first class lounge. Would all that fit within the existing head house, without destroying the historical character?


I envision entering through the headhouse, getting ticketing, and then passing from there through a corridor to the new controlled-access waiting rooms which would be built behind the headhouse (where the parking lot is now, perhaps), with the tracks and platform overhead. A new larger parking garage would have to be built somewhere anyway, perhaps across the street.

But I suppose it would work just as well to have the station across Nuccio Parkway and add an overhead enclosed pedestrian bridge providing a fully enclosed pathway to/from Union Station. Or to connect the "back end" of the Amtrak platform to a station at the TECO location, though that seems substantially worse.

There's astounding amounts of vacant / parking / redevelopable land just west of Nebraska Ave, before getting to downtown proper. The Selmon Expressway kind of wrecks the area, dividing downtown from Channelside, but it's Tampa so they won't fix that. A couple of big parking garages, which the station will need, could replace some of those parking lots and allow for lots and lots of development.


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> I envision entering through the headhouse, getting ticketing, and then passing from there through a corridor to the new controlled-access waiting rooms which would be built behind the headhouse (where the parking lot is now, perhaps), with the tracks and platform overhead. A new larger parking garage would have to be built somewhere anyway, perhaps across the street.
> 
> But I suppose it would work just as well to have the station across Nuccio Parkway and add an overhead enclosed pedestrian bridge providing a fully enclosed pathway to/from Union Station. Or to connect the "back end" of the Amtrak platform to a station at the TECO location, though that seems substantially worse.
> 
> There's astounding amounts of vacant / parking / redevelopable land just west of Nebraska Ave, before getting to downtown proper. The Selmon Expressway kind of wrecks the area, dividing downtown from Channelside, but it's Tampa so they won't fix that. A couple of big parking garages, which the station will need, could replace some of those parking lots and allow for lots and lots of development.


But then they're essentially building a new station, and just connecting it to TUS somehow. Where's the value in that, especially from Brightline's point of view? I don't see any reason for riding Brightline from Orlando to Tampa to connect with Amtrak. If Amtrak develops the JAX-Tampa corridor, they'll be a competitor of Brightline.


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## Qapla

Since the Star already goes from WPK-TPA they are already "competitors" (the Star used to travel daily) - yet both trains are well traveled by people going to/from these destinations.

With the drop to 3x week - running the Star from JAX-TPA on the days the Star does not go to NYC would be nice (won't hold my breath)


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## McIntyre2K7

I think wan


Qapla said:


> Since the Star already goes from WPK-TPA they are already "competitors" (the Star used to travel daily) - yet both trains are well traveled by people going to/from these destinations.
> 
> With the drop to 3x week - running the Star from JAX-TPA on the days the Star does not go to NYC would be nice (won't hold my breath)




I mean you might as well have the Silver Star end in Tampa and the Silver Meteor end in Miami. Let Amtrak introduce 3 new routes (Miami to Tampa, Naples to Tampa and Jacksonville/Orlando/Tampa). When getting into Orlando on the Star riders would have a choice of taking Brightline to Miami which would be faster or staying on the train and making a transfer in Tampa. The Star would arrive in Tampa an 90 minutes before the trains to Miami and Naples depart giving travelers some time to explore Downtown Tampa/Ybor City/ Waterstreet areas.


----------



## Qapla

Oops

I partially mis-spoke

It is SunRail that runs from Winter Park-Kissimmee (actually, from DeBary) and it is well used (at least before C-19 it was) as well as the Star being used for day trips from Orlando area to Tampa.

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> Oops
> 
> I partially mis-spoke
> 
> It is SunRail that runs from Winter Park-Kissimmee (actually, from DeBary) and it is well used (at least before C-19 it was) as well as the Star being used for day trips from Orlando area to Tampa.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.


I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Amtrak does stop at Winter Park, so your original statement was correct, as I see it.

My point, in response to the suggestion that Brightline use the existing Tampa Union Station, was that I don't see any advantage to Brightline in making it easy to transfer to Amtrak at TPA.

Before the pandemic, I'd toyed with the idea of a day trip on the Star to Tampa, but parking seems to be limited at ORL; KIS, which has plenty of parking, is a 40-minute drive; and I would only get 5 hours at most to spend in Tampa. Those, plus the possibility of not getting a window seat on the train, discouraged me enough that I never got around to it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Amtrak does stop at Winter Park, so your original statement was correct, as I see it.
> 
> My point, in response to the suggestion that Brightline use the existing Tampa Union Station, was that I don't see any advantage to Brightline in making it easy to transfer to Amtrak at TPA.
> 
> Before the pandemic, I'd toyed with the idea of a day trip on the Star to Tampa, but parking seems to be limited at ORL; KIS, which has plenty of parking, is a 40-minute drive; and I would only get 5 hours at most to spend in Tampa. Those, plus the possibility of not getting a window seat on the train, discouraged me enough that I never got around to it.



It’s a nice enough trip. Lots of orange groves which are fun to travel past at track speed.


----------



## Qapla

When we did day trips to Tampa we left from Palatka - about 45 minute drive for us but we can park all day for free

Usually had no problem getting a window seat

The problems come when the southbound runs late and the northbound is on time.

We also did a day trip to Kissimmee. We ate pizza there and then rode Sunrail from the southern terminus (Poinciana) to the northern terminus (DeBary) and then rode Sunrail back to Winter Park to catch the Star back to Palatka.

Both of us being seniors makes the Sunrail tickets very affordable



joelkfla said:


> I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Amtrak does stop at Winter Park, so your original statement was correct, as I see it.



Where I mis-spoke was the discussion was about "Brightline" - it is "Sunrail" that presently goes from Winter Park to Kissimmee so there is no "present" competition with Amtrak from Brightline in the Orlando area


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## jis

> High-speed rail company Brightline has pushed back the starting date of its Tampa connection to Orlando as it prepares to make a Disney station more of a priority.
> 
> Brightline is in the process of finalizing the conceptual design for the Orlando to Tampa route. The plan now is to start the work in 2022 rather than 2021 for the route and station buildout. The construction would take three years, making 2025 the completion date for the Tampa connection.





https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2020/10/23/brightline-reveals-new-timeline-details-for-tampa.html


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## Qapla

Since they basically lost 2020 - that makes complete sense


----------



## leemell

Brightline West posted this with the San Bernardino Board of Supervisors as to their current status with the Victorville to Rancho Cucomonga link. Very enlightening. Questions remain about Woodland Hills woman found alive after going missing in Zion National Park


----------



## daybeers

leemell said:


> Brightline West posted this with the San Bernardino Board of Supervisors as to their current status with the Victorville to Rancho Cucomonga link. Very enlightening. Questions remain about Woodland Hills woman found alive after going missing in Zion National Park


Was that the link you meant to post?


----------



## leemell

Sorry, https://www.gosbcta.com/wp-content/...kqFBfYxlVznA3hUbnoeuogX1QRUnYF_mJGC5c8cyMfnvo


----------



## jis

I went out yesterday to scout what Brightline has been upto in Southern Brevard County, and here is what I saw.:

1. Work continuing apace on construction of new trestles across Sebastian River and Crane Creek. Noting substantial yet on Turkey Creek and Goat Creek. Did not check Eua Gallie River.

2. 2nd track is in place except on bridges, between north bank of Sebastian River and almost upto Malabar Road. Bits and pieces in place between Malabar Road and Port Malabar Road. From thence to Palm Bay Road ROW has been prepared but no tracks. Grade crossing work for second track has been completed upto Port Malabar Road from the south. next would be Palm Bay Rd, North of that that there is second track in place in the form of siding almost upto Crane Creek.

Next I will have to go out and check Melbourne to Cocoa.


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## railiner

I think that the FEC should take you on an inspection trip in their office car....
Don’t you?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I think that the FEC should take you on an inspection trip in their office car....
> Don’t you?


There are a few from FECRS who I know who have been working with FECR to produce those nice videos of construction status. Though they tend to use regular cars an drones rather than inspection cars, but those videos are well worth watching. They appear from time to time on FECRS's public Facebook page.


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## Brian_tampa

Here are two links to documents from the latest bond re-marketing memorandum released on EMMA yesterday:

https://emma.msrb.org/P31404863-P31092183-P31501205.pdf

https://emma.msrb.org/P31404863-P31092183-P31501083.pdf

The files are too large to attach here. Here is the original webpage link

Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board::EMMA

click on the first bond issue link and then continuing disclosure from here

Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board::EMMA

I have read more of the first linked pdf and can note the following details as I was reading through (in no particular order, just as I came across them):

2024 9.9m annual pax

3.1m pax in 2024 from all 3 new stations incl Disney (which will add 800k of that total with avg fare of $102)
Disney extension to be up to $200m from bonds and another $100m from equity, loans, etc..

Family discounts for Disney destined trips

Additional track and rolling stock to cost $211m. $10m already spent on rolling stock and $65m on track

$168m of the $211m is related to additional double track and other rail infrastructure improvements

New I-ETMS PTC system to cost $22m

One reason for change from E-ATC to I-ETMS was to allow for greater fluidity and increased flexibility for future track changes and faster trip times. The two additional stations in S Florida would have added 2-3 minutes each. The new PTC system will mitigate that impact by shaving 5 minutes off the running time.

Original 5 trainsets (20 coaches and 10 Cheargers) cost $264m

Additional 5 trainsets (same configuration as original order + 1 spare Charger) $182m

First of the new trainsets to be delivered September 2021, 4th trainset in June 2022, and the 5th trainset in February 2023


Train air conditioners to get UV light filters to reduce spread of pathogens before resumption of service

Siemens maintenance agreement – letter of force majeure sent to Siemens requesting relief from the terms of the agreement during the operational shutdown period due to COVID-19. Siemens has furloughed or reassigned the majority of its staff. Brightline has suspended its Siemens maintenance related costs.

Total project cost (incl Disney extension) will cost $4.437B

Page 1216 has a plan of the Orlando VMF. Note that the OUC railroad west of the VMF will be Triple track in sections at least.


----------



## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> Here are two links to documents from the latest bond re-marketing memorandum released on EMMA yesterday:
> 
> https://emma.msrb.org/P31404863-P31092183-P31501205.pdf
> 
> https://emma.msrb.org/P31404863-P31092183-P31501083.pdf
> 
> The files are too large to attach here. Here is the original webpage link
> 
> Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board::EMMA
> 
> click on the first bond issue link and then continuing disclosure from here
> 
> Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board::EMMA
> 
> I have read more of the first linked pdf and can note the following details as I was reading through (in no particular order, just as I came across them):
> 
> 2024 9.9m annual pax
> 
> 3.1m pax in 2024 from all 3 new stations incl Disney (which will add 800k of that total with avg fare of $102)
> Disney extension to be up to $200m from bonds and another $100m from equity, loans, etc..
> 
> Family discounts for Disney destined trips
> 
> Additional track and rolling stock to cost $211m. $10m already spent on rolling stock and $65m on track
> 
> $168m of the $211m is related to additional double track and other rail infrastructure improvements
> 
> New I-ETMS PTC system to cost $22m
> 
> One reason for change from E-ATC to I-ETMS was to allow for greater fluidity and increased flexibility for future track changes and faster trip times. The two additional stations in S Florida would have added 2-3 minutes each. The new PTC system will mitigate that impact by shaving 5 minutes off the running time.
> 
> Original 5 trainsets (20 coaches and 10 Cheargers) cost $264m
> 
> Additional 5 trainsets (same configuration as original order + 1 spare Charger) $182m
> 
> First of the new trainsets to be delivered September 2021, 4th trainset in June 2022, and the 5th trainset in February 2023
> 
> 
> Train air conditioners to get UV light filters to reduce spread of pathogens before resumption of service
> 
> Siemens maintenance agreement – letter of force majeure sent to Siemens requesting relief from the terms of the agreement during the operational shutdown period due to COVID-19. Siemens has furloughed or reassigned the majority of its staff. Brightline has suspended its Siemens maintenance related costs.
> 
> Total project cost (incl Disney extension) will cost $4.437B
> 
> Page 1216 has a plan of the Orlando VMF. Note that the OUC railroad west of the VMF will be Triple track in sections at least.


Found this paragraph interesting:

"The Company continues to consider adding additional transit connectivity to its South Florida network, including service to Miami International Airport and/or Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport. For connectivity to the Miami International Airport, the Company has approximately four miles of existing east-west track and would potentially utilize its existing South Florida Rail Corridor for the approximate three mile north-south portion that connects into Miami International Airport’s already built intermodal center’s rail platform and station. For service to Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport, the Company rail corridor is already inside the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport’s perimeter, so a station would be the main addition. The Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport station may be a part of the South Florida Commuter Service, as described further below. These two stations would connect the Project to the top three airports in Florida, which had a combined 133.3 million passenger enplanements in 2019."

Maybe they're eyeing the space that had been intended for Amtrak at MIA.

BTW -- seems to me like the 2 links are to identical documents?


----------



## jis

Brightline Hiring Commuter Rail Project Manager, With Work To Begin In April On Aventura & Boca Stations


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Brightline Hiring Commuter Rail Project Manager, With Work To Begin In April On Aventura & Boca Stations
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


Throw your hat in the ring!


----------



## chrsjrcj

The job listing says Aventura to Miami, but Broward County Commissioners in January voted to go through the same process that Miami-Dade County did to have commuter rail extend to FLL Airport initially then Deerfield Beach (once an amenable solution for the New River crossing is found*). Like Miami-Dade, Broward is funding it with the 1% transportation tax passed in 2018. I wish the Broward extension would continue the few miles to Boca Raton (a far more logical northern endpoint), but...county lines means people who live/work/shop in Broward don't go to Palm Beach County and vice versa .

*Speaking of, I found this document that details 4 possibilities for an additional New River crossing. The proposals are: 1) 21' Bascule Bridge 2) 55' Bascule Bridge 3) 80' Fixed Bridge 4) Tunnel. 2019_12_19_Executive_Summary_Final_Feasibility_Study_Technical Memorandum_optimized.pdf (browardmpo.org)

Of course, tunnel is the most expensive option but my guess is the one preferred by the City of Fort Lauderdale, while FDOT may prefer the 21' bascule bridge. What's interesting is that due to the proximity to the Fort Lauderdale station, alternatives 2 and 3 would require an elevated platform, while alternative 4 would require an underground platform. It will be extremely interesting to see how this plays out over the next few years.

ETA: Also, this presentation has some artists renderings of the proposed crossings. Microsoft PowerPoint - New River Crossing 2nd Round Presentations_MPO_12_13_19.pptx (browardmpo.org)


----------



## jis

Long term the best choice would seem to be the fixed structure 80' high.


----------



## VentureForth

Maybe jis can shed some light on this...

I am impressed by the progress of the Crane Creek bridge in Melbourne. Then I noticed that there was already grade created and a 2nd track bridge already in place that I would have assumed would be easier to tear down, rebuild, move traffic to, then rinse repeat to the current mainline.

Is the new bridge going to be for BOTH sets of tracks? Wouldn't that add unnecessary earthmoving on the north side as well as introduce slowing curves?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Maybe jis can shed some light on this...
> 
> I am impressed by the progress of the Crane Creek bridge in Melbourne. Then I noticed that there was already grade created and a 2nd track bridge already in place that I would have assumed would be easier to tear down, rebuild, move traffic to, then rinse repeat to the current mainline.
> 
> Is the new bridge going to be for BOTH sets of tracks? Wouldn't that add unnecessary earthmoving on the north side as well as introduce slowing curves?


I have no idea what they are upto other than that there has been almost zero progress in whatever they are doing over the last four or so weeks.

OTOH, a lot of new second track has been laid between Sebastian and Melbourne, and grade crossing widened for two tracks etc. over the last month or two.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> I have no idea what they are upto other than that there has been almost zero progress in whatever they are doing over the last four or so weeks.
> 
> OTOH, a lot of new second track has been laid between Sebastian and Melbourne, and grade crossing widened for two tracks etc. over the last month or two.


I've seen a lot of that North of Crane Creek up to Cocoa, particularly where the track crosses Babcock (There's a Sonic there which will become an AWESOME railfan spot).


----------



## jis

The thing that they are building across Crane Creek looks really rickety for a new permanent bridge. So it might be a diversion bridge so that they can rebuild the more permanent bridge. I am not sure about it, but it is my guess looking at the flimsy thing that the thing that they building looks.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The thing that they are building across Crane Creek looks really rickety for a new permanent bridge. So it might be a diversion bridge so that they can rebuild the more permanent bridge. I am not sure about it, but it is my guess looking at the flimsy thing that the thing that they building looks.


I don't know about Crane Creek specifically, but on Roaming Railfan's videos they usually build a temporary trestle just for the construction crane to get access to the rail bridge. If the ROW for the 2nd track has been built up approaching the bridge, the temporary trestle would not line up with it, but there would be a large cleared area for construction equipment to stage on.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Maybe jis can shed some light on this...
> 
> I am impressed by the progress of the Crane Creek bridge in Melbourne. Then I noticed that there was already grade created and a 2nd track bridge already in place that I would have assumed would be easier to tear down, rebuild, move traffic to, then rinse repeat to the current mainline.
> 
> Is the new bridge going to be for BOTH sets of tracks? Wouldn't that add unnecessary earthmoving on the north side as well as introduce slowing curves?



They're increasing the maritime clearance of the bridges and reducing the number of waterflow obstructions. This means that even in cases where they already had the foundations for a double track bridge, they are completely removing the foundations and replacing them; this leads to some odd-seeming construction choices.


----------



## VentureForth

Maybe this evening I can go back and look and see if there is any rail positioned leading to the constructed bridge. I think that it would be logical to keep the current alignment. That new bridge could be just for construction, but in this case, I don't think they are raising the level of the tracks. Since this was never a draw/swing bridge, there shouldn't be maritime traffic inland of the bridge that would exceed the height requirements. Besides that, it would have to make a grade crossing nearly immediately after the bridge.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> and would potentially utilize its existing South Florida Rail Corridor for the approximate three mile north-south portion that connects into Miami International Airport’s already built intermodal center’s rail platform and station.



I think there is no doubt that it would be technically feasible to run a Brigfhtline train into Miami Airport.

I don't think anybody who knows anything about how trains work ever doubted that.

The more pertinent question would be, how would that fit in with service patterns?

Would alternative trains branch off and go to the airport instead of Miami Central? Or would trains run a dog leg to the airport before or after arriving at Miami Central? Would resulting travel times still be attractive?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I think there is no doubt that it would be technically feasible to run a Brigfhtline train into Miami Airport.


It would be feasible without involving a direction reversal after the southeast quadrant connector at Iris is built. That involves condemnation of several properties which will take its usual time. It is more or less unlikely to happen until then.


----------



## VentureForth

So long as there is contiguous standard gauge track, anything is possible. But will Brightline want to mess with getting rights on the various tracks it takes to get there? I dont think they share with anyone else at the moment... Would they want to?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> So long as there is contiguous standard gauge track, anything is possible. But will Brightline want to mess with getting rights on the various tracks it takes to get there? I dont think they share with anyone else at the moment... Would they want to?


Brightline runs on FECR tracks. So of course they pretty much share most of the track they run on.

To get to the airport they would run on FECR (dispatched by jointly owned FDC) to Iris and then on TriRail to the airport. Getting access should not be difficult at all. The biggest impediment is the a connection facing in the correct direction at Iris.


----------



## VentureForth

Okay - so they share with FECR because they split up a few years ago, but the original concept was running FEC trains on FEC track. I understand that relationship is severed and stitched, but my intent was that Brightline currently only uses one company's tracks. 

Where is Iris?

It does look like a pain in the butt to take Miami Dade Transit from Miami Central to the Airport. Another connection is required and an uncomfortable 15 minute wait at Earlington Heights. This seems to be something that Miami should fix.


----------



## chrsjrcj

There's also a bottle neck between the Miami Airport and Hialeah Market stations where trains have to cross a single tracked 95 year old drawbridge over the Miami River (err canal). It's supposed to be replaced/an additional track added, but I doubt Tri-Rail will be too eager to add additional trains to that section until then.



VentureForth said:


> Okay - so they share with FECR because they split up a few years ago, but the original concept was running FEC trains on FEC track. I understand that relationship is severed and stitched, but my intent was that Brightline currently only uses one company's tracks.
> 
> Where is Iris?
> 
> It does look like a pain in the butt to take Miami Dade Transit from Miami Central to the Airport. Another connection is required and an uncomfortable 15 minute wait at Earlington Heights. This seems to be something that Miami should fix.



Iris is just south of the Metrorail transfer station at 79th Street. 







Hopefully as Miami-Dade Transit service returns to normal, they'll reinstate the entire Orange Line and it will be a 1 seat ride.


----------



## VentureForth

Oh wow. That junction was brand new in 2019. Who uses it primarily?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Okay - so they share with FECR because they split up a few years ago, but the original concept was running FEC trains on FEC track. I understand that relationship is severed and stitched, but my intent was that Brightline currently only uses one company's tracks.


Brightline happened after FECR was separated from FECI, of which AAF was a subsidiary, never of FECR. They have always been separate companies which organizationally met at the top at the Fortress Group. But somehow railfans are forever confused about it.

Since Tri-Rail uses Brightline tracks to get to Miami Central, it should be no problem for Brightline to get access to Tr-Rail tracks to get to Miami Airport MIC, specially should Miami Dade want it.


> Where is Iris?


Where FECR main line to Hialeah Yard crosses TriRail


> It does look like a pain in the butt to take Miami Dade Transit from Miami Central to the Airport. Another connection is required and an uncomfortable 15 minute wait at Earlington Heights. This seems to be something that Miami should fix.


Why would you not take the direct Metro ride from Miami Central (Metro: Historic Overtown/Arean right next to the Brightline Miami Central station) to the Airport? There is nothing to fix really as far as getting to the Airport from Brightline Miami Central goes. If they are running just a shuttle to the Airport, they should perhaps restore the direct service.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> Hopefully as Miami-Dade Transit service returns to normal, they'll reinstate the entire Orange Line and it will be a 1 seat ride.


Reinstate? There has been no Orange Line before the pandemic except on paper. It will get started maybe late this year, maybe early next.


----------



## blueman271

VentureForth said:


> Oh wow. That junction was brand new in 2019. Who uses it primarily?


The junction itself is not brand new, it’s been around forever. The track connection, allowing southbound Tri-Rail trains to head east on the FEC, is new.


----------



## blueman271

chrsjrcj said:


> There's also a bottle neck between the Miami Airport and Hialeah Market stations where trains have to cross a single tracked 95 year old drawbridge over the Miami River (err canal). It's supposed to be replaced/an additional track added, but I doubt Tri-Rail will be too eager to add additional trains to that section until then.
> 
> 
> 
> Iris is just south of the Metrorail transfer station at 79th Street.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully as Miami-Dade Transit service returns to normal, they'll reinstate the entire Orange Line and it will be a 1 seat ride.


As Jis said the Orange Line has never actually run, it’s still a plan on paper. And MDT doesn’t have any real say on when or if it ever starts. Tri-Rail is run by the South Florida Regional Transit Authority, which is made up of representatives from the three counties it serves. It has a governing board which is distinct from the transportstion agencies within the three counties.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The Orange line certainly did exist pre-pandemic. I've taken it numerous times between Miami Airport and Government Center (and further south) without having to change at Earlington Heights.



jis said:


> Reinstate? There has been no Orange Line before the pandemic except on paper. It will get started maybe late this year, maybe early next.





blueman271 said:


> As Jis said the Orange Line has never actually run, it’s still a plan on paper. And MDT doesn’t have any real say on when or if it ever starts. Tri-Rail is run by the South Florida Regional Transit Authority, which is made up of representatives from the three counties it serves. It has a governing board which is distinct from the transportstion agencies within the three counties.



I'm well aware of Tri-Rail and the SFRTA. The holdup to MiamiCentral is Brightline implementing PTC.

I think the confusion here is y'all think I'm referring to the map, when I was quoting VentureForth regarding Metrorail to the Airport. The map was intended as a visual for where the Tri-Rail branches off to downtown.


----------



## west point

The pandemic certainly saved Brightline from having to announce service postponed due to inoperative PTC.. Did any of the first attempt remain or did all have to be removed first then install the replacement. ?


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Maybe this evening I can go back and look and see if there is any rail positioned leading to the constructed bridge. I think that it would be logical to keep the current alignment. That new bridge could be just for construction, but in this case, I don't think they are raising the level of the tracks.


The newer bridges have shallower decks than the old ones. So they can keep the track at the same level but raise the overhead clearance for boats.

The main effect of this is that when they rebuild the bridges on the same alignment, they are completely replacing the foundations, which requires the "temporary bridges" on the side both to reroute rail traffic while rebuilding, and also as an access point for cranes.


----------



## neroden

chrsjrcj said:


> There's also a bottle neck between the Miami Airport and Hialeah Market stations where trains have to cross a single tracked 95 year old drawbridge over the Miami River (err canal). It's supposed to be replaced/an additional track added, but I doubt Tri-Rail will be too eager to add additional trains to that section until then.


Unlike the freight railroads, Tri-Rail are not jerks. They'll happily add the trains and just line up the schedule carefully.


----------



## neroden

west point said:


> The pandemic certainly saved Brightline from having to announce service postponed due to inoperative PTC.. Did any of the first attempt remain or did all have to be removed first then install the replacement. ?


I believe the very basic signalling systems which underlie both PTC systems remain in place but basically they had to remove the first attempt.


----------



## west point

Last time there the draw bridge only raised occasionally. Just one customer west of draw left. Maybe TriRail hopping the need for draw will pass.


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> Unlike the freight railroads, Tri-Rail are not jerks. They'll happily add the trains and just line up the schedule carefully.


Doesn't CSX still own most if not all the track Tri-Rail operates on?


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> The Orange line certainly did exist pre-pandemic. I've taken it numerous times between Miami Airport and Government Center (and further south) without having to change at Earlington Heights.
> 
> I'm well aware of Tri-Rail and the SFRTA. The holdup to MiamiCentral is Brightline implementing PTC.
> 
> I think the confusion here is y'all think I'm referring to the map, when I was quoting VentureForth regarding Metrorail to the Airport. The map was intended as a visual for where the Tri-Rail branches off to downtown.


So you post a map that shows an Orange Line and Blue Line and then talk about some other Orange?

You are correct about the confusion caused by your post. We were all talking about the Tri-Rail lines as shown in the map you posted, and in that context we were correct in stating that the Orange Line shown on the map did not exist. And none of us contested that the Metro Airport Line existed, since none of us were talking about it. So I guess you love to argue with yourself 



VentureForth said:


> Doesn't CSX still own most if not all the track Tri-Rail operates on?


No. It is owned by SFRTA/FDOT and at least initially it was dispatched under contract by Amtrak. I don't know its current status as far as dispatching goes.


----------



## VentureForth

I think i have it figured out now. Tri-Rail has no spurs. Airport to Magnolia. Metrorail has a green line and an orange line. Orange line is essentially same as green line except spurs from Earlington Heights to the airport. Since Covid, it ONLY runs between Earlington Heights and the airport, leaving only the Greenline for the rest of the system. Therefore, all trips to the airport require a transfer. This can add up to 15 minutes to what would have otherwise been about a 15 minute single seat ride from downtown to the airport. Don't know why Covid necessitated this change, but Metrorail doesn't have any end in sight to this modification.

Back to the Tri-Rail/Brightline partnership. I think the intent is for Tri-Rail to use Brightline track, not the other way around, right? So there would really be no incentive for Brightline to go up past Iris then back up to MIA just to serve the airport. the 15 minute transfer at Miami Central is still the most logical connection in my opinion.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Back to the Tri-Rail/Brightline partnership. I think the intent is for Tri-Rail to use Brightline track, not the other way around, right? So there would really be no incentive for Brightline to go up past Iris then back up to MIA just to serve the airport. the 15 minute transfer at Miami Central is still the most logical connection in my opinion.


Yes. 

Currently there is no plan for Brightline to venture onto Tri-Rail tracks. 
There are plans actively being worked for Tri-Rail to serve Bridhtline Miami Central. 
There is an active plan for Brightline Commuter to serve Miami Central to Aventura for now, maybe extended to Fort Lauderdale or even Boca Raton some day.
There is also a lukewarm plan for Tri-Rail to be extended from West Palm Beach to maybe upto Jupiter on FECR/Brightline tracks using the new crossover at Northwood (between West Palm Beach and Mangonia Park stations of Tri-Rail). But that is a long range "maybe" category thing.


----------



## cocojacoby

jis said:


> Yes.
> 
> Currently there is no plan for Brightline to venture onto Tri-Rail tracks.



Brightline is all high-level architecture. I don't think they have traps necessary for Tri-Rail low-level station platforms


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Brightline is all high-level architecture. I don't think they have traps necessary for Tri-Rail low-level station platforms


In the unlikely event that Brightlline ever needs to get to Miami Airport, there is space to build another two track platform, presumably with a high level platform there, currently occupied by a parking lot and the Megabus bus bay. It is highly unlikely that Brightline trains would ever call at any other Tri-Rail station.


----------



## VentureForth

Do Tri-Rail trains have trap floors to allow usage at high level platforms? I don't recall that any of the Bombardier Bi-Levels do, but I guess they can get new equipment if they get new service.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Do Tri-Rail trains have trap floors to allow usage at high level platforms? I don't recall that any of the Bombardier Bi-Levels do, but I guess they can get new equipment if they get new service.


No. They will not be using high level platforms anywhere.


----------



## chrsjrcj

jis said:


> So you post a map that shows an Orange Line and Blue Line and then talk about some other Orange?
> 
> You are correct about the confusion caused by your post. We were all talking about the Tri-Rail lines as shown in the map you posted, and in that context we were correct in stating that the Orange Line shown on the map did not exist. And none of us contested that the Metro Airport Line existed, since none of us were talking about it. So I guess you love to argue with yourself



I was making a separate response to the end of VentureForth's post:



> It does look like a pain in the butt to take Miami Dade Transit from Miami Central to the Airport. Another connection is required and an uncomfortable 15 minute wait at Earlington Heights. This seems to be something that Miami should fix.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Actually what I said in that statement is absurd. What I meant to say is 20 trains per day each way, which really amount to maybe 1.3tph on an average each way, but is really likely to be more like 1tph each way, and about 16 trains per day each way.
> 
> I have corrected it in the original.


Yeah, that's what I thought it meant.


----------



## west point

Cane Creek bridge strike. Great presentation.

Crane Creek Bridge Strike on the Florida East Coast Railway and Brightline Bridge Construction - YouTube


----------



## jis

Brightline West bond effort pushed back to 2022 - Trains


LAS VEGAS, Nev. — The effort to finance the Brightline West high speed rail line between Las Vegas, Nev., and Victorville, Calif., will wait until 2022. The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports Brightline spokesman Ben Porritt said the plan to seek funding through private activity bonds was being...




www.trains.com


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Actually what I said in that statement is absurd. What I meant to say is 20 trains per day each way, which really amount to maybe 1.3tph on an average each way, but is really likely to be more like 1tph each way, and about 16 trains per day each way.
> 
> I have corrected it in the original.


20 trains/day would probably translate into something like 16-17 trains on a "clock" schedule plus 3-4 additional frequencies at peak hours. Witness the pre-pandemic schedules in South Florida, where they wedged an extra frequency in SB in the morning/NB in the afternoon (and, I believe, one train on each end of the schedule was pushed to meet a "magic" time).

Based on (pre-pandemic) operations in South Florida, I think what you'd see is first departures in the 0500-0600 range in each direction. The main question is the evening...especially once they've extended to Disney Springs, I suspect they'll be inclined to time some trains later than we'd normally "expect" to align with park closing times. There's precedent for this (they were running extra late-night trains both at New Year's, on some weekends, and after some basketball games).


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline West bond effort pushed back to 2022 - Trains
> 
> 
> LAS VEGAS, Nev. — The effort to finance the Brightline West high speed rail line between Las Vegas, Nev., and Victorville, Calif., will wait until 2022. The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports Brightline spokesman Ben Porritt said the plan to seek funding through private activity bonds was being...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com


_groans_
Given the room we have for interest rates to start spiking, I wish they could force the (not-really)cooperating agencies to get off their arse.


----------



## VentureForth

So the road that the cement truck hit the trestle girder on is going to be closed for a year now to finish the Crane Creek Bridge. This has sparked local Nimbys into action on local Facebook pages claiming the sacrifices we have to make for big rail to make money off our backs with no return.

Melbourne mayor Paul Affrey was quick to share the economic benefit of all the construction workers eating and lodging in the area. Reminded them that railroad can pretty much do what they want without concent of the city.

If Brightline ever decides to build a station here, our cooperation or resistance will be remembered.

The mayor also mentioned that they met with the Brightline execs recently and it was a good meeting. Public meetings have had no big opposers.


----------



## neroden

As an investor, I do think they'll have better luck selling bonds for the Vegas line in 2022 than this year.... if they get the Florida line up and running again this year as they plan to.


----------



## west point

We do not know the scheduling timing of Brightline. That means that any departures will be locked in depending on the passing sidings between Cocoa and Orlando airport. Also the single track section between the airport and Disney Springs.


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> We do not know the scheduling timing of Brightline. That means that any departures will be locked in depending on the passing sidings between Cocoa and Orlando airport. Also the single track section between the airport and Disney Springs.


In debates with the Hunters Point NIMBYs, they have stated that service between MCO & WDW will be hourly. They might get locked into that as a maximum if they enter into a settlement.


----------



## Anderson

Presuming they'll put up a wall between the tracks and the houses, I wonder how many folks will be able to actually hear the trains in a meaningful way. I ponder this because if it is "only" (say) 500 homes, it might be easier and cheaper to "settle" by paying them money (though I would be curious as to what the property value impact would be...).

Of course, I say this still feeling that the International drive routing is probably the better one in terms of driving ridership in the long run.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Presuming they'll put up a wall between the tracks and the houses, I wonder how many folks will be able to actually hear the trains in a meaningful way. I ponder this because if it is "only" (say) 500 homes, it might be easier and cheaper to "settle" by paying them money (though I would be curious as to what the property value impact would be...).
> 
> Of course, I say this still feeling that the International drive routing is probably the better one in terms of driving ridership in the long run.


Considering that this is Florida, this may have nothing to do with property value and more to do with pay-offs from interest groups that wish to try to force a routing of it via SR528-I-4 alignment. Of course the additional price tag of a billion dollars makes that a very high bar to leap across merely by 500 (or whatever the number is) households complaining about noise, and having heard nothing about the complaints of those whose properties will have to be outright condemned to get to the other route. And interestingly, none of this is within the city of Orlando, once the airport perimeter is exited more or less.


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> Presuming they'll put up a wall between the tracks and the houses, I wonder how many folks will be able to actually hear the trains in a meaningful way. I ponder this because if it is "only" (say) 500 homes, it might be easier and cheaper to "settle" by paying them money (though I would be curious as to what the property value impact would be...).
> 
> Of course, I say this still feeling that the International drive routing is probably the better one in terms of driving ridership in the long run.


That's what bugs me. The pols keep saying thousands of people in Hunters Point would be affected, and I keep wanting to yell back at them that the vast majority of those homes are too far away to hear a thing.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Hard to believe a train would add much more noise pollution than the existing highway it will parallel. NIMBYs gonna NIMBY.


----------



## west point

latest Scotus decision on eminent domain may be a set back to NIMBYS ?


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> In debates with the Hunters Point NIMBYs, they have stated that service between MCO & WDW will be hourly. They might get locked into that as a maximum if they enter into a settlement.



being limited to an hourly service might mean an end to any plans to, at some point in the future, have an interlacing pattern of faster and stopping trains,


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> That's what bugs me. The pols keep saying thousands of people in Hunters Point would be affected, and I keep wanting to yell back at them that the vast majority of those homes are too far away to hear a thing.


In Florida, where land at one time was sold by the gallon as they say, pols will say anything that seems convenient for the moment with complete disregard for any remote attachment to any facts in evidence.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Considering that this is Florida, this may have nothing to do with property value and more to do with pay-offs from interest groups that wish to try to force a routing of it via SR528-I-4 alignment. Of course the additional price tag of a billion dollars makes that a very high bar to leap across merely by 500 (or whatever the number is) households complaining about noise, and having heard nothing about the complaints of those whose properties will have to be outright condemned to get to the other route. And interestingly, none of this is within the city of Orlando, once the airport perimeter is exited more or less.


Oh, I agree that this is 100% the case. The flip side is that in terms of a lawsuit, this seems to be a misfire since it might literally be cheaper for Brightline to just buy folks out...I don't know how it would play in court, but I wouldn't want to be the plaintiff's attorney trying to go to trial asking for specific performance over an alleged (future) noise complaint for a railroad with no grade crossings theoretically on behalf of folks already living next to an expressway, especially if a bunch of the neighbors happily take a payoff for (say) 5-10% of their home's value.

(Again, assuming a few hundred homeowners are "at issue", the home prices in the area seem to hover between $350-600k...paying $10-20m for an agreement that locks folks out of future complaints and more-or-less kills off any class action arrangement might well be worth it; structure the payments as conditional on the line getting approved and you might suddenly be setting the cat among the canaries.)


chrsjrcj said:


> Hard to believe a train would add much more noise pollution than the existing highway it will parallel. NIMBYs gonna NIMBY.


I can see a situation where folks on whichever side the train would be running might be impacted. The ROW seems to be about 400 feet wide, all told, so that's going to make a big difference.

(The annoying thing is that there's the question of being sold the access rights. If this was simply a matter of running the trains on owned land, I think the response would be much closer to "We'll see you in court, and we'll probably get an order letting us proceed since you'll likely just be arguing damages".)

Of course, this also reminds me of the total mess that Ashland has been in VA...


----------



## nullptr

Anderson said:


> Oh, I agree that this is 100% the case. The flip side is that in terms of a lawsuit, this seems to be a misfire since it might literally be cheaper for Brightline to just buy folks out.



Some of the comments by Brightline make me think they basically agree with you. The issue is that right now they don't really need to convince Hunters Creek of anything, they need to convince Central Florida Expressway Authority to lease them the land before the end of July. It would be hard to come to any agreement on settlement in that short of time, so Brightline is trying to convince Central Florida Expressway Authority to just offload the liability onto them (Brightline) and finish the lease agreement.

Here is a quote from an article about it



> Cegelis said an agreement between Central Florida Expressway and Brightline likely would include protections for the authority, and Brightline may be responsible for the payout of claims as part of an agreement.



(Cegelis is a Brightline VP)

But all this relies on the complaint being made in good faith and not an attempt to force Brightline to use the SR528 option, as others have stated might be the case.

The article I'm referencing is here


https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/05/13/orlando-groups-oppose-brightline-extension-route.html


----------



## Anderson

I mean, if the claim is being brought in bad faith that's something that can be sorted out later. I'm not sure what the dynamics are for breaking up a class of complainants to settle with some, but if they can get the lease that's the path I'd be looking at.

But the lease with CFEA is the sticky point.

(As far as I'm concerned, if someone was able to come up with most of the difference then SR528 makes more sense...but that half-billion to billion dollars is an issue.)


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> But the lease with CFEA is the sticky point.


Point of info: they go by CFX, or sometimes CFXway. (I had to stop & think for a moment on who you meant by CFEA.)


----------



## neroden

It's pretty clear that most of the CFX people are just looking for a payout. The question is whether some are being pressured by someone else to obstruct/kill the project entirely; DeSantis seems to be looking, like his predecessor Scott, for any excuse to kill the project.

I agree that if someone was willing to actually fund it SR528 makes more sense but none of the complainers have put up so much as one red cent. Counterfactual: if Orange County were offering money and Sea World were offering money and so on, Brightline might be willing to try to put up part of the extra cost itself, but none of the entities which want it to go on SR528 (or claim to want it to) seem to be willing to put up any money.


----------



## Brian_tampa

neroden said:


> It's pretty clear that most of the CFX people are just looking for a payout. The question is whether some are being pressured by someone else to obstruct/kill the project entirely; DeSantis seems to be looking, like his predecessor Scott, for any excuse to kill the project.
> 
> I agree that if someone was willing to actually fund it SR528 makes more sense but none of the complainers have put up so much as one red cent. Counterfactual: if Orange County were offering money and Sea World were offering money and so on, Brightline might be willing to try to put up part of the extra cost itself, but none of the entities which want it to go on SR528 (or claim to want it to) seem to be willing to put up any money.


You do realize that it was Gov. Scott who approved the $113 million in state monies to build the ITF at MCO back in 2013 or 2014. In actuality (having been in contact with several people within Brightline/FECI over the years), the support for Brightline has been bipartisan for the most part at the state level (and in the US Congress in the House). The only negative pushback has been from state and congressional elected officials from Indian River County and Brevard County areas along with the congressman Brian Mast who represents St Lucie County. DeSantis, as far as I can tell, and have been told, has been neutral on this project so far. He might not support it, but he doesn't actively oppose it either. There is nothing new about the conditions Brightline has to satisfy for the Tampa extension that were not required for the Orlando phase 2 extension. Both require (required) studies on impacts on toll road revenue and future highway expansion plans. I've been told a big proportion of the issues with the Tampa extension plan involve FDOT not having final design plans ready for their beyond the ultimate I-4 rebuild/expansion project west of Orlando to US 27 until recently. That work is scheduled for mid 2020's. Not to mention the Tampa Bay area Lexus Lane plans for I-4 between Lakeland and Tampa in about 8 years time.


----------



## Brian_tampa

As far as the I-Drive/Convention Center route goes, it won't ever happen with Brightline unless Orange County, Orlando, and Universal step up and fund it. Perhaps in the future it will happen but not now. My belief is that if not 417 to WDW, then the extension to WDW and Tampa will not happen and Brightline is serious about that demand. But there are powerful interests in Tampa and Disney that want the 417 corridor to happen. It is a power struggle now.


----------



## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> As far as the I-Drive/Convention Center route goes, it won't ever happen with Brightline unless Orange County, Orlando, and Universal step up and fund it. Perhaps in the future it will happen but not now. My belief is that if not 417 to WDW, then the extension to WDW and Tampa will not happen and Brightline is serious about that demand. But there are powerful interests in Tampa and Disney that want the 417 corridor to happen. It is a power struggle now.


I tend to agree that Brightline could just walk away from Tampa if they can't get an acceptably priced ROW.

I wonder whether they would then turn their attention to JAX? It would probably take into the 2030's, since no engineering studies have been done. But they might have a much easier time piggybacking on FECR and double-tracking MCO to Cocoa, and no FLDOT or local toll agencies to deal with.


----------



## Brian Battuello

When I worked as a programmer, we occasionally had senior managers drop in on our weekly status meetings. Our team leader said that we were not allowed to use abbreviations like CICS or DB2. It made the meetings much more understandable.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I tend to agree that Brightline could just walk away from Tampa if they can't get an acceptably priced ROW.
> 
> I wonder whether they would then turn their attention to JAX? It would probably take into the 2030's, since no engineering studies have been done. But they might have a much easier time piggybacking on FECR and double-tracking MCO to Cocoa, and no FLDOT or local toll agencies to deal with.


They will still have to update their agreement with CFX on the toll compensation for carrying passengers from new origin points to Orlando along the Beach Line (SR528) ROW. It is written into the agreement for using that ROW.

They will have to double track FECR more than needing to double track Cocoa to OIA (Orlando International Airport), afterall if all that they add is net 2tph to pre-existing 2tph, there is no need to double track anything. The double tracking or adding many many more passing sidings on the FECR is necessitated by the coexistence of freight and passenger trains running at vastly different speeds.

Also, there will be a reversal of direction involved at Cocoa for trains running from OIA to Jacksonville.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> They will still have to update their agreement with CFX on the toll compensation for carrying passengers from new origin points to Orlando along the Beach Line (SR528) ROW. It is written into the agreement for using that ROW.
> 
> They will have to double track FECR more than needing to double track Cocoa to OIA (Orlando International Airport), afterall if all that they add is net 2tph to pre-existing 2tph, there is no need to double track anything. The double tracking or adding many many more passing sidings on the FECR is necessitated by the coexistence of freight and passenger trains running at vastly different speeds.
> 
> Also, there will be a reversal of direction involved at Cocoa for trains running from OIA to Jacksonville.


Yes, I assumed double tracking FECR would be required, but it's on existing ROW, so should be much less expensive that building all new track to Tampa. And they already have a history of peaceful coexistence.

I would expect some change to the configuration of the Cocoa junction that would allow trains to transition directly from the Orlando line to FECR to the north, perhaps a trestle over the edge of the cement plant or something like a balloon loop south of the junction. (I haven't looked at the map to see how that might fit in.)


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Yes, I assumed double tracking FECR would be required, but it's on existing ROW, so should be much less expensive that building all new track to Tampa. And they already have a history of peaceful coexistence.


FECR and Brightline already jointly own traffic planning and dispatching through their jointly owned company named the Florida Dispatching Company, which is chartered to carry out those functions. It is equally owned with equal votes in its Board. So yes, that should be easy.


> I would expect some change to the configuration of the Cocoa junction that would allow trains to transition directly from the Orlando line to FECR to the north, perhaps a trestle over the edge of the cement plant or something like a balloon loop south of the junction. (I haven't looked at the map to see how that might fit in.)


That seems like a completely unnecessary expense given the bidirectional nature of the trains. It should not take them more than a few minutes to change ends test brakes and be on their way. Also that would cause the Jacksonville train to miss the Cocoa stop, which also seems unnecessary.

In reality, at least initially if they institute a Miami JAX hourly service they would probably just do a cross platform transfer from the Orlando Miami train by scheduling things cleverly anyway. They are a frugal company. Or they could even initiate service to JAX with a Cocoa - JAX shuttle connecting with the Miami - Orlando service. Anyhow this is all speculation based on very little at least on my part.


----------



## cirdan

So far they seem to be investing much more in getting to Tampa than they are investing in getting to Jacksonville . And this despite Jacksonville probably being the easier option as the ROW is given.

i assume there must be a good reason for doing it that way round rather than going for the easy one first . Probably because they predict more ridership on a Tampa line than on a Jacksonville line . Maybe because if the overall journey gets too long it ceases to be competitive with airlines . This is just a guess on my part . Jacksonville is considerably larger population wise than Tampa and there are also plenty of potential intermediate stops that would be good traffic generators . So the choice of Tampa does not seem totally obvious to me .


----------



## Qapla

Perhaps statistics show that more people fly between Tamp and Miami that do between Jacksonville and Miami.


----------



## Eric S

Tampa MSA (3.2 million ish) is approximately twice the size of Jacksonville MSA (1.6 million ish).


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> So far they seem to be investing much more in getting to Tampa than they are investing in getting to Jacksonville . And this despite Jacksonville probably being the easier option as the ROW is given.
> 
> i assume there must be a good reason for doing it that way round rather than going for the easy one first . Probably because they predict more ridership on a Tampa line than on a Jacksonville line . Maybe because if the overall journey gets too long it ceases to be competitive with airlines . This is just a guess on my part . Jacksonville is considerably larger population wise than Tampa and there are also plenty of potential intermediate stops that would be good traffic generators . So the choice of Tampa does not seem totally obvious to me .


They are not investing anything at present for Jacksonville. There is no active project, just a “maybe some day” aspiration. There just isn’t as much potential traffic as Orlando to Tampa.


----------



## cirdan

Eric S said:


> Tampa MSA (3.2 million ish) is approximately twice the size of Jacksonville MSA (1.6 million ish).



my mistake. I was misinformed.


----------



## VentureForth

Tampa has Stanley Cup, Super Bowl, and World Series champions. Jacksonville has a couple cruise ships, which, Tampa has as well.


----------



## Bob Dylan

VentureForth said:


> Tampa has Stanley Cup, Super Bowl, and World Series champions. Jacksonville has a couple cruise ships, which, Tampa has as well.


Now that the Raiders have left the Black Hole of Calcutta( Oakland Mausoleum) for Vegas,Jacksonville is the arm pit of the NFL, Noone can figure out why they were awarded an NFL Franchise! 

Urban Meyer and Tim Tebow are the only ones who want to be there!


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## Anderson

jis said:


> FECR and Brightline already jointly own traffic planning and dispatching through their jointly owned company named the Florida Dispatching Company, which is chartered to carry out those functions. It is equally owned with equal votes in its Board. So yes, that should be easy.
> 
> That seems like a completely unnecessary expense given the bidirectional nature of the trains. It should not take them more than a few minutes to change ends test brakes and be on their way. Also that would cause the Jacksonville train to miss the Cocoa stop, which also seems unnecessary.
> 
> In reality, at least initially if they institute a Miami JAX hourly service they would probably just do a cross platform transfer from the Orlando Miami train by scheduling things cleverly anyway. They are a frugal company. Or they could even initiate service to JAX with a Cocoa - JAX shuttle connecting with the Miami - Orlando service. Anyhow this is all speculation based on very little at least on my part.


My guess is that MIA-JAX would be run separately, likely with the cross-platform arrangements (as mentioned). From what I can tell about the projected ridership numbers, MIA-JAX would take at least some pressure off of the MIA-ORL trains (IIRC load factors peak FLL-WPB on MIA-ORL operation; I have no idea what adding Disney Springs or Tampa does to that structure, but I can see running an extra train per hour that's heading to JAX helping with that. Mind you, I'm just going with what was in some of the older filings as I recall them some years later...but that's what I recall seeing.

(The biggest issue with running a "shuttle" train is that Cocoa-Jacksonville is a 2+ hour run, and there's plenty of evidence that you lose a decent pile of ridership if you force folks to change trains...so you probably want to run the trains through to either Orlando, Tampa, or Miami. Of the options, running the trains JAX-MIA makes more sense AFAICT than does running them JAX-Cocoa-Orlando/Tampa since Cocoa-Orlando is basically an empty leg while going south picks up all of those other stations. Tampa _might_ make sense, depending on expected loads west of OIA, but I don't think we have any work from Brightline on that front.)


----------



## railiner

Whatever they finally decide on, I hope they run at least one daily all-stops "accommodation" from Jacksonville to Miami. Would be the first time for that on the FEC since 1968...


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## jis

Hmmm 4 hours from Miami to Cocoa Rockledge. In the brave new world that will be around 2.5 hours. I suppose Miami - JAX will be around 5 or less, if and when it happens with maybe 5 stops on the way.


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## cirdan

railiner said:


> Whatever they finally decide on, I hope they run at least one daily all-stops "accommodation" from Jacksonville to Miami. Would be the first time for that on the FEC since 1968...
> 
> View attachment 23518



what was “North Miami “ ?


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Hmmm 4 hours from Miami to Cocoa Rockledge. In the brave new world that will be around 2.5 hours. I suppose Miami - JAX will be around 5 or less, if and when it happens with maybe 5 stops on the way.


Just musing here .
At 5 hours you will get some patronage but maybe not enough to carve a significant share out of the airlines’ market share .

if Jacksonville happens, wouldn’t there be more potential in going for the Jacsonville to Orlando or even Tampa markets ?

in which case most trains would be routes that way and a connecting train for Miami would probably be good enough


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## railiner

They would probably get some connections from/to Amtrak at Jacksonville, even if passengers had to arrange it themselves…
Interesting that Port St. Lucie was almost non-existent back then….


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## railiner

cirdan said:


> what was “North Miami “ ?


See below


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## railiner

Found this…


https://digitalarchives.broward.org/digital/collection/greatdays/id/131


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## cirdan

Fascinating find . Thanks for sharing .

Interesting that the train would have started from there rather than the downtown station .


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## Eric S

Someone can check me on the dates but FEC ended passenger service during a strike in the 1960s and demolished the downtown Miami station. Then a court ordered passenger service to resume and FEC used the North Miami station as the southern terminus for however long passenger service survived.


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## Scott Orlando

If you actually flew MIA-JAX, which I did once pre-911, you are likely to invest equal or more time into travel to the airport, airport shenanigans, TSA, the actual flight - than you would on the train. Also is the consideration that the JAX airport location is highly inconvenient. Just a consideration to throw out there. 



cirdan said:


> Just musing here .
> At 5 hours you will get some patronage but maybe not enough to carve a significant share out of the airlines’ market share .
> 
> if Jacksonville happens, wouldn’t there be more potential in going for the Jacsonville to Orlando or even Tampa markets ?
> 
> in which case most trains would be routes that way and a connecting train for Miami would probably be good enough


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## Qapla

My understanding is that, if Brightline comes to JAX, it will be to the new downtown intermodal terminal 



not the northwest side Amtrak station




the JIA is considerably north of Jacksonville and not convenient to downtown at all - going from JIA into Jacksonville adds about 45-60 minutes to the trip.


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## Anderson

The plan has been to go to downtown. There's been intermittent mention of doing _something_ to link the downtown station to the Amtrak station, but I think the most likely option is to simply add a stop for the Silvers at the downtown station and then "eat" a backup move (versus extending a few Brightline trains to the existing Amtrak station...or fully moving Amtrak downtown, which is probably the second-most-likely option [if there's space]).


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## railiner

Or they will have separate stations in Jacksonville, as they do in Miami. That's why I mentioned "even if passengers had to arrange it themselves", regarding connections between the two companies...


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## Ryan

Qapla said:


> the JIA is considerably north of Jacksonville and not convenient to downtown at all - going from JIA into Jacksonville adds about 45-60 minutes to the trip.


Maybe when traffic is insane. Every time I've done it, it's taken ~30 min. It's 15 miles.


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## Qapla

I have driven in the area for many, many years and, yes, it can be done in 30 minutes if you start counting the time when you are actually on I95 ... counting from the parking areas can take longer - especially when traffic is heavy or there was an accident ... not to mention that some of the parking lots are quite a walk/trip from the terminal.

The new downtown facility is "walk out the door and you are downtown" ... especially if you are going to the Prime Osborne Convention Center and within walking distance of CSX.


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## cocojacoby

The original Jacksonville Terminal is still standing. There has been interest in turning it back into Jacksonville's train station.



https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-lost-jacksonville-union-terminal


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## jis

Only an annex might become the station for Brightline and JAX Commuter service some day. Amtrak will need a backup move to use the possible station adjacent to the Prime Osborne Convention Center.



https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-dec-high-speed-rail-project-has-its-eye-jacksonville/page/


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Only an annex might become the station for Brightline and JAX Commuter service some day. Amtrak will need a backup move to use the possible station adjacent to the Prime Osborne Convention Center.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-dec-high-speed-rail-project-has-its-eye-jacksonville/page/


This article gave me a chuckle when I saw it say that service between MIA & ORL would start by 2017.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Only an annex might become the station for Brightline and JAX Commuter service some day. Amtrak will need a backup move to use the possible station adjacent to the Prime Osborne Convention Center.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-dec-high-speed-rail-project-has-its-eye-jacksonville/page/


Great story! Thanks for posting that link...


----------



## blueman271

Eric S said:


> Someone can check me on the dates but FEC ended passenger service during a strike in the 1960s and demolished the downtown Miami station. Then a court ordered passenger service to resume and FEC used the North Miami station as the southern terminus for however long passenger service survived.


The strike was in 1963, a court ordered passenger service restored in ‘65, and it was ultimately discontinued in ‘68. I haven’t been to that part of Miami in a long long time (probably 15 years or so) but the train station minus the tracks and platforms was still there when I was growing up. My dad pointed it out to me once and told me the whole story about the FEC passenger services.


----------



## Anderson

railiner said:


> Or they will have separate stations in Jacksonville, as they do in Miami. That's why I mentioned "even if passengers had to arrange it themselves", regarding connections between the two companies...


I mean, I can't see Amtrak _not_ running at least a Thruway...

...okay, let me rephrase this: I can't imagine a competent version of Amtrak not at least running a Thruway. I can totally see Amtrak leaving perhaps 5-10k pax/year on the table that running a Thruway ought to get them (at a _minimum_...366 miles [per two old timetable JAX-MIA...note that the new Brightline station is exactly where the old one was, and IIRC the proposed Jacksonville station is about where the old one was] should measure out to somewhere in the ballpark of 5-6 hours depending on the average speed you manage to get...70 MPH seems feasible if they maintain a MAS of 110 most of the way from WPB to Jacksonville, which would correspond to about 5:12 or so vs the 8:40-11+ hours on the Silvers...and adding a slew of stations [and better-placed stations, particularly in the case of Miami] won't hurt there). Even allowing for an hour or two of "padding" at the JAX station in either direction, you're still likely to come out ahead in terms of time...


----------



## Anderson

joelkfla said:


> This article gave me a chuckle when I saw it say that service between MIA & ORL would start by 2017.


Hey, it still took less time to start the MIA-WPB service than it's taken VA to complete the Washington-Richmond service _study_...


----------



## VentureForth

cocojacoby said:


> The original Jacksonville Terminal is still standing. There has been interest in turning it back into Jacksonville's train station.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-lost-jacksonville-union-terminal


That article actually choked me up a little bit.


----------



## VentureForth

Starting to see some grade crossings in Melbourne finish up their double tracking and all but one of the girders for the I-95 bridge are in place.


----------



## joelkfla

CFXway Board is currently meeting to consider Brightline alignments between MCO & WDW (on cable channel 488 in the Orlando area.) Here is the 3rd party (4th party?) report on the disputed alternate alignments. It includes detailed descriptions of the proposed alignments, and impacts by the I-4 Beyond Ultimate project.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> CFXway Board is currently meeting to consider Brightline alignments between MCO & WDW (on cable channel 488 in the Orlando area.) Here is the 3rd party (4th party?) report on the disputed alternate alignments. It includes detailed descriptions of the proposed alignments, and impacts by the I-4 Beyond Ultimate project.


Thanks for posting the document. Very clear presentation of the alternatives. Now if CFX and Buddy Dwyer can come up with a billion or so dollars we would be all set with CFX's dreams.


----------



## joelkfla

So the CFX board essentially kicked the can further down the road again, approving a resolution to continue discussions with Brightline about alignments. I had thought FL DOT was requiring a firm commitment in order for Brightline to retain it's right to the I-4 ROW to Tampa, but Orlando Mayor/CFX chair Dyer seemed to say this would satisfy them.

But before that, there were 2 hours of comment primarily orchestrated by the Hunters Creek HOA, and the I-Drive Chamber of Commerce in cahoots with Universal. They both unabashedly circumvented the 3-minute per person limit on public comment by coordinating tag teams of commenters.

The Hunters Creek team included residents painting horrific pictures of Brightline trains derailing and exploding next to schools and parks, trapping children with no way out (seriously). What's more, all the fine first responders living in the community would be trapped and unable to respond. And then there was the allegation of a hidden agenda to run freight trains in the future. They closed with a glowing account of all the wonderful and noble things Hunters Creek residents have done for the county, and how the county OWES them.

The I-Drive/Universal team mostly continued to speak as if Brightline were a commuter system, not intercity rail. They also continued the attack on the 417 alignment, including a lawyer telling the board that they had no right to approve a rail line on the 417 ROW. As before, there was no recognition of the fact that Brightline has absolutely no obligation to build a line along 528 if the 417 alignment is scuttled.

BTW, the Orlando Sentinel revealed in a recent article that one of the governor's appointees who's been leading the charge against 417 was recently an executive of the Golf Channel, a subsidiary of -- NBC Universal!


----------



## jis

I had mentioned here quite a while back that most of this was usual Florida political skullduggery with associated hand wringing, shedding of crocodile tears and tooting ones own horn, often substantially disconnected from anything grounded in physical reality, while committing no actual funds. This is very typical in Florida.

Interesting alignment of interest between Buddy Dwyer - a Democrat, and DeSantis' henchmen if what is mentioned is true, and all this may just be incidental alignment of interests for the moment, rather than any coherent plan. Typically transactional.


----------



## Bob Dylan

joelkfla said:


> So the CFX board essentially kicked the can further down the road again, approving a resolution to continue discussions with Brightline about alignments. I had thought FL DOT was requiring a firm commitment in order for Brightline to retain it's right to the I-4 ROW to Tampa, but Orlando Mayor/CFX chair Dyer seemed to say this would satisfy them.
> 
> But before that, there were 2 hours of comment primarily orchestrated by the Hunters Creek HOA, and the I-Drive Chamber of Commerce in cahoots with Universal. They both unabashedly circumvented the 3-minute per person limit on public comment by coordinating tag teams of commenters.
> 
> The Hunters Creek team included residents painting horrific pictures of Brightline trains derailing and exploding next to schools and parks, trapping children with no way out (seriously). What's more, all the fine first responders living in the community would be trapped and unable to respond. And then there was the allegation of a hidden agenda to run freight trains in the future. They closed with a glowing account of all the wonderful and noble things Hunters Creek residents have done for the county, and how the county OWES them.
> 
> The I-Drive/Universal team mostly continued to speak as if Brightline were a commuter system, not intercity rail. They also continued the attack on the 417 alignment, including a lawyer telling the board that they had no right to approve a rail line on the 417 ROW. As before, there was no recognition of the fact that Brightline has absolutely no obligation to build a line along 528 if the 417 alignment is scuttled.
> 
> BTW, the Orlando Sentinel revealed in a recent article that one of the governor's appointees who's been leading the charge against 417 was recently an executive of the Golf Channel, a subsidiary of -- NBC Universal!


----------



## VentureForth

Is it just me, or does the approach from the southern route options into Disney seem to require a backup move to get out towards Tampa? I think the Northern route is the best, commercially, but at 2-3x the price. Maybe Hunter's Creek should pay to get it out of their back yard.


----------



## jis

Board: Brightline expansion between Orlando International Airport, Tampa approved


Brightline is still working with the Florida Department of Transportation for the corridor’s final leg that would connect Orlando and Tamp with a high-speed rail.




www.wesh.com


----------



## cocojacoby

I think the northern route is the way to go with stations closer to the Convention Center and Universal. There must be some money there if they really want it.


----------



## VentureForth

As I've posted just a couple posts above, commercially, the I-Drive to I-4 routing would make the most sense, but it would also invite HUGE short distance crowds between MCO - I-Drive - Disney Springs. The nice thing about Brightline (and I hope they maintain this with their Aventura and Boca stations) is that the platforms are gated - no access without a ticket. This is pretty rare in this country for heavy rail, but for security, they need to keep the crowds under control.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Is it just me, or does the approach from the southern route options into Disney seem to require a backup move to get out towards Tampa? I think the Northern route is the best, commercially, but at 2-3x the price. Maybe Hunter's Creek should pay to get it out of their back yard.


Both alignments have the same single entry-exit point with a stub-end station. But Brightline trainsets have locos at both ends and 50-50 seating, so it's just a reverse of direction, not a backup movement.


----------



## joelkfla

Brightline has said they are not interested in carrying local traffic. Whether they are speaking truth, or just throwing that up as an argument because they don't want to pay for the more expensive 528 route, I don't know.


----------



## neroden

Frankly, Brightline would be happy to do the northern route if someone else paid for it, but nobody has stepped up to pay for it. 

If they're funding it themselves, they don't have a choice other than attempting to optimize financially; passenger rail is generally an unprofitable business, and even if they do very well they won't be gushing cash, so they can't afford to blow half a billion for much less increase in ticket sales than that. You'd think Universal or the county would recognize this and offer up the cash if they really wanted the 528 route -- and they haven't.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Both alignments have the same single entry-exit point with a stub-end station. But Brightline trainsets have locos at both ends and 50-50 seating, so it's just a reverse of direction, not a backup movement.


Do they? I didn't see any close up of the intent at Disney Springs West of the I-4, 417 interchange, but the high-level show that the 417 alignment crosses the interchange then turns North vs the 528 which shows the route coming straight down I-4 and just stopping at the interchange. And, yes, I know the trains are bi-directional, but are the seats fixed? Are they all reset to face forward at the end points? Or are they all club seating or half and half forward and backward? Would be odd to travel facing forward for a chunk then facing backward without moving.


joelkfla said:


> Brightline has said they are not interested in carrying local traffic. Whether they are speaking truth, or just throwing that up as an argument because they don't want to pay for the more expensive 528 route, I don't know.





neroden said:


> Frankly, Brightline would be happy to do the northern route if someone else paid for it, but nobody has stepped up to pay for it.
> 
> If they're funding it themselves, they don't have a choice other than attempting to optimize financially; passenger rail is generally an unprofitable business, and even if they do very well they won't be gushing cash, so they can't afford to blow half a billion for much less increase in ticket sales than that. You'd think Universal or the county would recognize this and offer up the cash if they really wanted the 528 route -- and they haven't.


And this is the paradox. The shorthaul passengers can generate a TON of revenue but at the cost of losing space OR diminishing the experience of the target long distance market.


----------



## Chris I

VentureForth said:


> Do they? I didn't see any close up of the intent at Disney Springs West of the I-4, 417 interchange, but the high-level show that the 417 alignment crosses the interchange then turns North vs the 528 which shows the route coming straight down I-4 and just stopping at the interchange. And, yes, I know the trains are bi-directional, but are the seats fixed? Are they all reset to face forward at the end points? Or are they all club seating or half and half forward and backward? Would be odd to travel facing forward for a chunk then facing backward without moving.
> 
> 
> And this is the paradox. The shorthaul passengers can generate a TON of revenue but at the cost of losing space OR diminishing the experience of the target long distance market.


If the ROW permits, why not just make this section 3 or 4 tracks and run a shuttle service? This could be a big money-maker, given the cost of cabs from the airport.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Do they? I didn't see any close up of the intent at Disney Springs West of the I-4, 417 interchange, but the high-level show that the 417 alignment crosses the interchange then turns North vs the 528 which shows the route coming straight down I-4 and just stopping at the interchange. And, yes, I know the trains are bi-directional, but are the seats fixed? Are they all reset to face forward at the end points? Or are they all club seating or half and half forward and backward? Would be odd to travel facing forward for a chunk then facing backward without moving


The firm that did the comparison of the alignments said in their verbal presentation that the portion on Disney property would be "essentially the same" between the 2 alignments (actually 3 alignments in that area, as the I-4 portion of the northern alignment could be either in the I-4 median or elevated above the roadway, depending on how FL DOT decides to build "I-4 Beyond Ultimate".) Also, concept art previously released shows a stub-end station with platforms on the upper level. I suppose that could change, but I think Disney would want to minimize the amount of elevated track structure for aesthetic reasons. And IMHO it's going to be tough shoehorning a station into that area with tracks at one end, let alone through tracks.

The railcars have fixed 50-50 seating, as is common in Europe. It's also pretty common in Europe for a train to pull into a stub-end station and continue it's trip with the opposite end at the head.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Frankly, Brightline would be happy to do the northern route if someone else paid for it, but nobody has stepped up to pay for it.
> 
> If they're funding it themselves, they don't have a choice other than attempting to optimize financially; passenger rail is generally an unprofitable business, and even if they do very well they won't be gushing cash, so they can't afford to blow half a billion for much less increase in ticket sales than that. You'd think Universal or the county would recognize this and offer up the cash if they really wanted the 528 route -- and they haven't.


I think in an alternate universe where the parks weren't dealing with the aftermath of a virus scrambling planned capex, this might be a thing. Right now, they're mostly "out" the international tourist market with no clear timeline on that coming back in full (heck, Canada is only _just_ backing off the border closure there).


joelkfla said:


> Brightline has said they are not interested in carrying local traffic. Whether they are speaking truth, or just throwing that up as an argument because they don't want to pay for the more expensive 528 route, I don't know.


Brightline is not interested in doing "local" traffic on their own dime. If someone waltzes in with a check to buy the space or to buy another few equipment sets and cover disruptions, Brightline would probably run just about anything. I also _highly_ doubt that Brightline is going to "run off" MCO-Disney Springs traffic...enough folks will disembark at the airport that I can't see them _not_ want to turn over the seats. Once they run through to Tampa...who knows?


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Brightline is not interested in doing "local" traffic on their own dime. If someone waltzes in with a check to buy the space or to buy another few equipment sets and cover disruptions, Brightline would probably run just about anything. I also _highly_ doubt that Brightline is going to "run off" MCO-Disney Springs traffic...enough folks will disembark at the airport that I can't see them _not_ want to turn over the seats. Once they run through to Tampa...who knows?


If what is happening in South Florida is any indication, Brightline will ask the Counties/Cities to run the local service perhaps as a SunRail service - essentially the Western half of the proposed East-West Corridor. I don't think they will run it themselves. There is more to it than just buying a few pieces of equipment. The local service part of the stations will become a maintenance responsibility for the Counties as well, in addition to providing any subsidy needed to cover the gap between farebox takes and the actual cost of operations. Funds really don;t grow on Palm Trees, not even in Florida.


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> If someone waltzes in with a check to buy the space or to buy another few equipment sets and cover disruptions, Brightline would probably run just about anything.


True, as they have done in contracting to run some commuter service in the Miami area.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> True, as they have done in contracting to run some commuter service in the Miami area.


Brightline will not actually be operating those local trains. They will be TriRail trains using TriRail rolling stock with low platform boarding. The local stations will be low platform only. The joint use stations will generally have an island high platform for Brightline trains and outside the track low platforms for TriRail use. Local passengers will be segregated from Brightline Passengers. Local passengers will not have access to the Brightline lounge areas.

This will also help avoid confusion about branding and ticketing. Local passengers will use standard TriRail and Joint Miami-Dade-Broward fare cards. Brightline will be ... well Brightline. No one will confuse one for the other or get on the wrong train by mistake.


----------



## Mailliw

joelkfla said:


> True, as they have done in contracting to run some commuter service in the Miami area.


This is actually a pretty good strategy. Assuming they can negotiate decent terms why leave money on the table if governments want to contract work out to them?


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> This is actually a pretty good strategy. Assuming they can negotiate decent terms why leave money on the table if governments want to contract work out to them?


All that they are doing in the Miami area is renting out slots to TriRail, which is a very reasonable thing to do. They are not taking on any financial risk for the operation of the local service. And as a matter of detail, they are really doing so on behalf of the Florida Dispatching Company since that is the outfit that doles out slot usage to both FECR and Brightline too.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> CFXway Board is currently meeting to consider Brightline alignments between MCO & WDW (on cable channel 488 in the Orlando area.) Here is the 3rd party (4th party?) report on the disputed alternate alignments. It includes detailed descriptions of the proposed alignments, and impacts by the I-4 Beyond Ultimate project.


That is extremely clear, actually: Brightline says in so many words:

"Brightline's firm conclusion is that a northerly alignment remains cost prohibitive and is not cost feasible. Brigthline continues to welcome consideration of the Taft Vineland route in partnership with the public or private sector to fully bridge this $780 million to $1.8 billion gap."

I don't think you can get much clearer than this. They'll do the Taft Vineland Route if someone else pays for it, whether Universal or the counties, and not otherwise.

They go into detail regarding the costs, too! The main issue is the need for more bridges to grade separate from the roads. Therefore, if those were all funded out of the government road budgets, which is totally legit, the funding issue would be solved. The governments are simply not willing to pay for it, and that's the bottom line. 

Pearls of Brightline being set before swine of Florida governments. I hope Brightline goes somewhere they're appreciated next -- maybe they'll be treated better in LA and Las Vegas.


----------



## cocojacoby

Just to throw a small monkey wrench into this. Universal is building a giant new Theme Park close to the northern route option:


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## jis

Where is the new money wrench? This has been known for quite a while and Universal has been trying to stir up anyone that it can to get someone else to pay for access to it as best as they can.


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## Scott Orlando

Its a shame that the public officials can’t see the huge potential victory here. The 417 route doesn’t help them with something they’ve been trying to do for decades: rail service between mco-i drive/convention center/universal- Disney. It could be a win-win. Brightline intercity and Sunrail local on the 528 route. I understand that the cost is enormous and they say they have no money…there is always a solution.


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## jis

Scott Orlando said:


> Its a shame that the public officials can’t see the huge potential victory here. The 417 route doesn’t help them with something they’ve been trying to do for decades: rail service between mco-i drive/convention center/universal- Disney. It could be a win-win. Brightline intercity and Sunrail local on the 528 route. I understand that the cost is enormous and they say they have no money…there is always a solution.


Said public officials have tried almost every gadget bahn snake oil trying to get the snake oil vendor to pay for it, and of course they did not and all went bankrupt or walked away. Now they have been told in no uncertain terms that it could happen if they pay for it. My guess is they won't and let the chips fall where they may or may not.

The northern route was supposed to be a fast light/regional rail line with many stops actually serving a lot of people. This is round 4 in the search for a sucker who will do it without any funding provided to them to do so. Musk is yet to step in with his Teslas in little tunnels. Fort Lauderdale has biitten on that one already.


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## cocojacoby

I have not seen any proposal for a transportation hub station located as central to everything as possible and having each company run their own bus shuttles. As proposed now, even though the Disney Springs station is going to be on Disney Property, you would still need to board a bus to get your family and luggage to your particular hotel. Landing at a very busy shopping/restaurant complex really doesn't seem ideal when you are trying to get settled into your hotel ASAP to start your expensive vacation.

And even if you just happen to be going to Disney for the day (without luggage) once you get off the train at Disney Springs you would still need to board a bus to get to the individual Theme Parks. 

Maybe they could even have a user fee so any hotel in the area would contribute to the construction and maintenance cost of the facility.


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## joelkfla

cocojacoby said:


> I have not seen any proposal for a transportation hub station located as central to everything as possible and having each company run their own bus shuttles. As proposed now, even though the Disney Springs station is going to be on Disney Property, you would still need to board a bus to get your family and luggage to your particular hotel. Landing at a very busy shopping/restaurant complex really doesn't seem ideal when you are trying to get settled into your hotel ASAP to start your expensive vacation.
> 
> And even if you just happen to be going to Disney for the day (without luggage) once you get off the train at Disney Springs you would still need to board a bus to get to the individual Theme Parks.
> 
> Maybe they could even have a user fee so any hotel in the area would contribute to the construction and maintenance cost of the facility.


We don't know what Disney plans to do. Maybe they'll run buses from the station; maybe they'll leave it taxis, Uber, Lyft, and their overpriced in-house rideshare service: Minnie Vans. The Disney resort hotels could provide luggage transfer from the station, as they do now for guests transferring between hotels.

Currently, there are no buses from Disney Springs to the parks, and only limited service to Disney resort hotels until after 11 a.m.


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## neroden

If Disney had sense they'd build gadgetbahns from each park to the Disney Springs station, suitably-themed for each park, but... they don't have Walt's sense of style any more.


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## west point

Can the public be able to pick up arrivals at Disney Springs ?


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## Anderson

joelkfla said:


> We don't know what Disney plans to do. Maybe they'll run buses from the station; maybe they'll leave it taxis, Uber, Lyft, and their overpriced in-house rideshare service: Minnie Vans. The Disney resort hotels could provide luggage transfer from the station, as they do now for guests transferring between hotels.
> 
> Currently, there are no buses from Disney Springs to the parks, and only limited service to Disney resort hotels until after 11 a.m.


The issue here is parking: If you ran buses from Disney Springs to each of the parks, I think you can guarantee that you'd have a few thousand people willing to put up with a 20-minute bus transfer to save $20+ on parking. For Magic Kingdom, there's a "hotfix" in the form of the Monorail Resorts (and by extension, this _sort-of_ applies to Epcot).


neroden said:


> If Disney had sense they'd build gadgetbahns from each park to the Disney Springs station, suitably-themed for each park, but... they don't have Walt's sense of style any more.


The issue isn't style, it's expense. For various-and-sundry reasons, the cost of building these gadgetbahns has generally exceeded the rate of inflation by a substantial amount. I suspect that if you could do something for $20-25m/mile, Disney might go for it. Up at $75-100+ million per mile, it gets trickier to justify. Also, extending service to anywhere with free parking raises the issue of folks circumventing theme park parking prices...and Disney Springs _needs_ free parking to work.


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## Anderson

west point said:


> Can the public be able to pick up arrivals at Disney Springs ?


We're still 3-4 years away from this, but I'd be shocked if there was not at _least _a kiss-and-ride area.


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## VentureForth

cocojacoby said:


> Just to throw a small monkey wrench into this. Universal is building a giant new Theme Park close to the northern route option:





joelkfla said:


> We don't know what Disney plans to do. Maybe they'll run buses from the station; maybe they'll leave it taxis, Uber, Lyft, and their overpriced in-house rideshare service: Minnie Vans. The Disney resort hotels could provide luggage transfer from the station, as they do now for guests transferring between hotels.
> 
> Currently, there are no buses from Disney Springs to the parks, and only limited service to Disney resort hotels until after 11 a.m.


Kinda relevant to both quotes... I was driving Uber last Saturday in the area. I had a passenger who worked at Universal telling me about the big landgrab at Lockheed, keeping Lockheed's operation in place. I think they said that Universal originally owned that land, but then sold/leased to Lockheed. Lockheed only uses a portion, and that portion isn't going to be disturbed. Universal then reclaimed/repurchased the rest of the land. I don't think they are going to worry about transit between the two parks, expecting most guests to self transit or spend the whole day in one park. Universal didn't have the same element of surprise Disney had when he bought 46 square miles of contiguous property from farmers, but they are piecing together one heck of a footprint.

There have never been transportation from Disney Springs to the parks. Transportation at D.S. (heck, all Disney transportation) is intended for Disney resort guests only, but they don't check. At any point, they can turn on Verify to Ride. Since parking at Disney Springs is free, why lose that $20 ($25) revenue? Side note, when I worked at Disney in the 90's, it was $5... I don't know about a pickup/dropoff kiss and ride at DS, but I haven't looked. There's a great place for Uber drivers to pick up passengers closest to Saratoga Springs. You wouldn't believe how many people want Ubers to take them from one place to another inside the park.


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## cirdan

What percentage of Disney visitors would be arriving by train anyway?

Maybe Brightline is betting on the wrong horse here and should just push for an optimal route to Tampa, only serving Disney if it happens to be possible anyway.


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## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> What percentage of Disney visitors would be arriving by train anyway?
> 
> Maybe Brightline is betting on the wrong horse here and should just push for an optimal route to Tampa, only serving Disney if it happens to be possible anyway.



If you build it, they WILL come.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> What percentage of Disney visitors would be arriving by train anyway?
> 
> Maybe Brightline is betting on the wrong horse here and should just push for an optimal route to Tampa, only serving Disney if it happens to be possible anyway.


It is not just Tampa. This is also entangled with the SunRail East-West Corridor. That is why all the hand wringing about the Northern Corridor option, since it makes a lot of sense for a SunRail East-West Corridor. Actually Brightline is not terribly opposed to the other routing as long as someone else pays for it. They have stated so quite openly.

On the whole it will be difficult for them to get all the permits without at least spending quite some time bringing various parties on board around Orlando.









Brightline, SunRail explore partnership in Florida


Brightline provided WESH 2 News with a map projection that would share a corridor of SunRail, extended to Walt Disney World and the airport.




www.wesh.com


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## cocojacoby

cirdan said:


> What percentage of Disney visitors would be arriving by train anyway?



Disney now provides free bus transportation from the Orlando Airport directly to your hotel. This service is extremely convenient taking your entire party and their luggage door to door. Disney has also recently started to charge $25 a night to park at your hotel even though you are already paying exorbitant prices at some of their resorts. So the "Magical Express" is a great perk.

However, they say that they are planning to end this service and are touting the "new train" as a suitable replacement. With two transfers it of course is nowhere near as convenient.

Disney has no problem raising prices and lowering services. They are still packed every day and probably always will be.


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## jis

cocojacoby said:


> Disney now provides free bus transportation from the Orlando Airport directly to your hotel. This service is extremely convenient taking your entire party and their luggage door to door. Disney has also recently started to charge $25 a night to park at your hotel even though you are already paying exorbitant prices at some of their resorts. So the "Magical Express" is a great perk.
> 
> However, they say that they are planning to end this service and are touting the "new train" as a suitable replacement. With two transfers it of course is nowhere near as convenient.


Disney Magical Express service is being discontinued starting Jan 1, 2022. Brightline extension to WDW, comes 4-5 years after that anyway. At present Disney mentions Uber and Lyft, and not Brightline so much. In any case the actual service between MCO and WDW if and when it materializes is going to be quite distinct from the Brightline inter-city service.









Disney World Ending Magical Express Airport Shuttle


Walt Disney World is ending its Magical Express shuttle service to resorts from Orlando International Airport. This comes after the company "temporarily suspended" Extra Magic Hours, FastPass+, the Dining Plan, and more. All of this




www.disneytouristblog.com


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## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> The issue here is parking: If you ran buses from Disney Springs to each of the parks, I think you can guarantee that you'd have a few thousand people willing to put up with a 20-minute bus transfer to save $20+ on parking. For Magic Kingdom, there's a "hotfix" in the form of the Monorail Resorts (and by extension, this _sort-of_ applies to Epcot).


The solution is to run buses from the station, not from the existing DS bus depot. Brightline has secured platforms and waiting areas. If buses were to load within the security perimeter, they would be accessible only to train riders.

It gets more complicated if SunRail joins the party, since they currently don't have secured platforms. I don't know whether SunRail tickets have a QR code or something that would make it easy for them to also secure their platforms.


cirdan said:


> What percentage of Disney visitors would be arriving by train anyway?
> 
> Maybe Brightline is betting on the wrong horse here and should just push for an optimal route to Tampa, only serving Disney if it happens to be possible anyway.


I believe that is just what they are doing. The 417 to I-4 route is the best route to Tampa. They're making a small detour to Disney because they think there will be enough passengers headed to Disney from Miami & Tampa to make it pay off.


cocojacoby said:


> However, they say that they are planning to end this service and are touting the "new train" as a suitable replacement. With two transfers it of course is nowhere near as convenient.


I have not seen anything from Disney touting the train as transportation to and from the airport. That's being done by Disney fans who don't understand Brightline.


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## VentureForth

cocojacoby said:


> Disney has no problem raising prices and lowering services. They are still packed every day and probably always will be.


Sadly, they haven't had the financial need like Amtrak to do that. Just maximizing revenue based on demand. Used to be that if you stayed in any of the official resorts you could park for free, and you could park at the parks for free. But to be fair, Disney was amongst the last to add on what hotels around the world have been doing for decades with their resort and parking fees.


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## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Sadly, they haven't had the financial need like Amtrak to do that. Just maximizing revenue based on demand. Used to be that if you stayed in any of the official resorts for free, you could park at the parks for free. But to be fair, Disney was amongst the last to add on what hotels around the world have been doing for decades with their resort and parking fees.


Theme park parking is still free for Disney resort guests, but they have to pay a nightly resort parking fee.


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## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Theme park parking is still free for Disney resort guests, but they have to pay a nightly resort parking fee.


Even though I fixed the quoted post, I think you know what I meant. To reiterate, as a resort guest parking for free at the resorts, they could park at the parks for free. Past tense was for not paying at resort. Paying for parking at the resort doesn't mean not paying at the toll plaza going into a park is free. You pay at the resort. AFAIK, anyone can pay once at any park and still go to any of the other parks without paying again.

Just more nickel and diming.

Amtrak on the other hand thinks, If we can sucker someone $2000 for one bedroom, then we don't have to bother with selling 4 for $500 each.


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## Ryan

That logic makes sense when you only have one bedroom to sell.


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## Anderson

Amtrak's problem is that at any "reasonable" price point, demand will tend to outstrip supply for sleepers. _Unfortunately_, Amtrak hasn't asked Congress for so much as a penny for more sleepers, so...


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## joelkfla

Just got this email:





We’ve missed you… a lot. But it’s officially official: Brightline service will resume *this November*, and we can’t wait to welcome you back aboard. We’re busy getting our trains squeaky clean and our stations in tip-top shape — here’s a sneak peek:


Regular service between Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach starts again in November.


----------



## Qapla




----------



## Qapla

Latest Update


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## Qapla

Another Update


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## Qapla

Here's the latest update


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## Qapla

Another Airport update


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## Qapla

The latest video


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## Ryan

Thanks for sharing these. Great updates.


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## cirdan

It is interesting to see that even the single track portion of the Orlando extension is being built so as to allow double-track later.

I am guessing the connecting curve to the CSX main line is only temporary for use during construction. I cannot imagine any long time justification for such a track.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> It is interesting to see that even the single track portion of the Orlando extension is being built so as to allow double-track later.
> 
> I am guessing the connecting curve to the CSX main line is only temporary for use during construction. I cannot imagine any long time justification for such a track.


What CSX main line? Do you mean the SunRail main line or the CSX power house siding?


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## Scott Orlando

jis said:


> What CSX main line? Do you mean the SunRail main line or the CSX power house siding?



The reference is the connection to the OUC branch by the power plant


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## jis

Scott Orlando said:


> The reference is the connection to the OUC branch by the power plant


That's what I suspected. Not a main line by any stretch of imagination. Basically a long siding to get fuel to the power plant.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> That's what I suspected. Not a main line by any stretch of imagination. Basically a long siding to get fuel to the power plant.



I guess it's that then. It wasn't clear from the video.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I have been told by folks at FECI that the agreement with Deseret Ranch (aka the Mormon church) includes a provision for a separate track for freight along their property. Of course a new lease agreement will have to be had for the FDOT section further east. 

Nothing is ever as it seems I have come to realize.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I have been told by folks at FECI that the agreement with Deseret Ranch (aka the Mormon church) includes a provision for a separate track for freight along their property. Of course a new lease agreement will have to be had for the FDOT section further east.
> 
> Nothing is ever as it seems I have come to realize.


Very relevant specially if it should come to pass that CSX decides to abandon Poinciana - Tampa and FECI acquires that and leases freight operation to FECR or some such complex arrangement among those three actors, which they seem to be experts at.


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## Brian_tampa

Look at the Innovation Way junction. Why do you think the bridges are built to allow for a third track south of the Brightline tracks?


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## Brian_tampa

The freight track agreement is actually in the lease document. I need to look it up as it's been some time since I read it. It's there. Just unnoticed by most people. But it is important. My contacts at FECI do not discount it either.


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## Brian_tampa

I doubt CSX will abandon Tampa. I can see FECR going to Orlando somewhere around the airport area to build an intermodal yard. Brightline would happily take money from FECR for access rights.


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## Brian_tampa

And this intermodal yard would be built off the OUC Railway. Not brightline near MCO.


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## Scott Orlando

This is pretty fascinating. I would wonder if they would be happy getting the OUC branch (since they are already planning on taking part of it) and run freight south of the airport.


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## Scott Orlando

Brian_tampa said:


> And this intermodal yard would be built off the OUC Railway. Not brightline near MCO.



ha - you posted this a few seconds before I posed that question


----------



## west point

If FEC wants to provide freight service to the Orlando IM terminal or either on to Tampa the OUC bypass would be a natural so no freight routed thru the airport. Thinking of Haz Mat. The answer would be if CSX has exclusive freight rights on the OUC track or not. That might go down to who built the OUC track. 

Brightline has and is using the OUC part from the airport to the Sun Rail tracks to bring in both freight including construction material to the Maintenance facility and ferry in the next few passenger train sets.

Several of videos mention these activities.


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## Anderson

I seem to recall that I projected that FEC accessing Orlando/Tampa for freight purposes was likely part of the equation here (even if it was being done with temporal separation or something else to allow smooth pax operation). So this is...really not a surprise to me. The only unexpected thing is how long it took for it to come out.


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## jis

If this (freight to Tampa on the Orlando - Tampa segment) becomes too publicly known I suspect the Hunters Creek folks will have an order of magnitude larger conniptions and the I-Drive contingent may at least start scratching their heads.  

Of course there is also a new set of negotiations to be had with CFEA too since the current agreement does not say anything about freight. Also the relationship, or lack thereof with the STB may need to be revisited too. None are necessarily show stoppers, but they have to happen nonetheless.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> If this (freight to Tampa on the Orlando - Tampa segment) becomes too publicly known I suspect the Hunters Creek folks will have an order of magnitude larger conniptions and the I-Drive contingent may at least start scratching their heads.
> 
> Of course there is also a new set of negotiations to be had with CFEA too since the current agreement does not say anything about freight. Also the relationship, or lack thereof with the STB may need to be revisited too. None are necessarily show stoppers, but they have to happen nonetheless.


Well, and if I had to guess, they'll get the passenger service up and running (possibly all the way to Tampa) first. At that point it'd be a _lot _harder for the Hunters Creek folks to throw a fit given the lack of grade crossings and the like. TBH, NIMBY-ism is probably the strongest case for why they were doing this "one piece at a time": Objections start looking...quite dubious at some point. "You have 50 passenger trains per day and we built a sound wall; what's a few intermodals running through a quiet zone?"


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## VentureForth

Unlike NIMBYs who live to 150-year old ROWs, Hunter's Creek folk have a stronger standing for opposing new development in their backyard. 

But you're right. If the track is elevated, no grade crossings, sound barriers are installed (but still allowing views from onboard), they may just have to suck it up.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> If this (freight to Tampa on the Orlando - Tampa segment) becomes too publicly known I suspect the Hunters Creek folks will have an order of magnitude larger conniptions and the I-Drive contingent may at least start scratching their heads.
> 
> Of course there is also a new set of negotiations to be had with CFEA too since the current agreement does not say anything about freight. Also the relationship, or lack thereof with the STB may need to be revisited too. None are necessarily show stoppers, but they have to happen nonetheless.


Actually, CFX has already been aware of it in the multi-party lease negotiations that took place back in 2013 or so. It was mainly something that Deseret Ranches allowed as the land to be used was not originally owned by CFX. It is part of the 200ft wide strip that Deseret sold to CFX that then leased it to Brightline. Deseret wanted the ability to also develop industrial uses for their land near the 528.

I am only aware of a third freight only track being allowed along SR528. Not sure if Tampa will ever see freight, or for that matter, anything past the western end of OUC tracks.

The eastern portion owned by FDOT would be better for shared purpose track. No local industry will ever be located along the stretch. And I doubt if FDOT would even care if freight was run along that section of 528, seeing that they didn't oppose it along the Deseret section. I don't think CFX opposes it either. It maybe be in the FDOT lease documents which I haven't read in years


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> I seem to recall that I projected that FEC accessing Orlando/Tampa for freight purposes was likely part of the equation here (even if it was being done with temporal separation or something else to allow smooth pax operation). So this is...really not a surprise to me. The only unexpected thing is how long it took for it to come out.


My only surprise is that they don't have the hysterical opposition to high platforms which most of the US freight railroads have. Why, perhaps it is actually possible to run freight trains past standard high platforms without problem. CSX and NS should take notes and learn how.


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## Brian_tampa

I also just thought of something preventing (or making it very unlikely) for freight service to Tampa. Isn't the Disney station supposed to be a stub end design from everything i have read? That's good for short 1000ft passenger trains but obviously not sure about 5-10k ft long intermodal trains. And highly doubtful Disney would allow freight trains on its property.


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## west point

About freight service.
1. FEC already has full plate "H" clearances JAX - MIA. So no problem for service to at least Cocoa.
2. There are no overhead structures Cocoa - OUC track except the 528 underpass that was stated as a 40 foot rough construction opening so plate "H" on to Orlando .
3. The OUC rail as I recall has no overhead structures to past the Airport maintenance facility so again plate "H".
4. Not quite sure about clearances airport to Sun Rail ? Seems like at least one road overpass ?
5. Sun Rail good clearances as well.
6. Sun Rail to I-4 unknown as route not determined.
7. I-4 to Tampa. There was talk when the cancelled HSR line was proposed that some overpasses would needed raising for CAT ? Now diesel ???

The Cocoa to Orlando and maybe Tampa RR track is going to be class 7 track. Brightline owning it would need for freight cars to have nearly perfect wheels so the cars will not damage the 125 MPH track requiring extra surfacing work. FEC already has a WILD that rejects any bad order cars before cars are accepted at JAX. Bright line might want a WILD just before Cocoa to check any freight cars. Another possibility would be only allowing lighter weight cars such as Intermodal cars that as a rule do not have flat wheels. 

Note" WILD = Wheel Impact load detector.

Posted elsewhere Brightline is to receive a passenger train set soon. Believe it will be routed to the airport maintenance facility ?


----------



## joelkfla

IIRC, it was explicitly stated at the CFX board meetings that there would be no freight traffic on the southern alignment between Meadow Woods & Disney. I think they said it was prohibited in the proposed lease agreement.

That wouldn't preclude freight between Cocoa and the CFX interchange east of the airport.


----------



## VentureForth

Freight is where the money is. But it seemed like they already had trouble sticking to the timetable while sharing the ROW with the freight just between MIA and WPB. They have been FAR from being able to maintain a consistent schedule which will be imperative when the extension begins. So much more can snowball when you have that much trackage.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Freight is where the money is. But it seemed like they already had trouble sticking to the timetable while sharing the ROW with the freight just between MIA and WPB. They have been FAR from being able to maintain a consistent schedule which will be imperative when the extension begins. So much more can snowball when you have that much trackage.


Construction related TSRs had been a much bigger issue than freight interference on the West Palm Beach service, that is when road traffic interference is taken out of the equation of course. This according to some of the dispatchers that I had the chance to chat with at one of the FECRS gatherings. 

Of these, on the FECR section road traffic interference will most likely remain as intense as ever, and construction TSRs will most likely mostly go away until the grade separation and bridge/tunnel work begins in Fort Lauderdale and perhaps elsewhere too.

I don;t think there will be any issue on the SR528 segment, even if they throw in a freight or two. Afterall it will be carrying just 2tph of passenger traffic, with each occupying that segment for less than 20 mins.


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## neroden

Watching the latest Roaming Railfan video, SR520 and the St Johns River Bridge are the only two bridges on the extension which are still sinking piles; the others are all into putting beams up or beyond. The panel tunnel is having the dirt moved over it already. This confirms my belief that the extension will have its civil construction pretty much done by the end of the year, and that the upgrades/replacements of bridges from WPB to Cocoa are the critical path on the Gantt Chart, the thing which is taking the longest. Due to the need to keep traffic moving, some of the bridge replacements effectively involve building four bridges, one after another (including the "temporary work trestles") so it's a much slower process than the brand-new bridges on the extension.


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## jis

I noticed they finally reopened Babcock Street grade crossing in Melbourne, to traffic after many days of closure for Brightline related construction.


----------



## Qapla

Another video update


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## jis

In addition to starting regular West Palm Beach service in November, they will also run the Polar express several times in December...



All aboard! THE POLAR EXPRESS™ Train Ride - Miami.


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## neroden

Reviewing my previous assessment of the critical path after watching the latest videos. This is what I wrote before:



> TLDR: It looks like the critical path for finishing construction runs through one of the following. I have ordered this list from most likely to least likely to be on the critical path:
> 
> Eau Gallie River bridge in Melbourne -- construction trestle barely started (two spans), pilings for first new track not started (trestle must be finished first)
> 
> Turkey Creek bridge in Palm Bay -- temporary construction trestle not even started as of end of May (but this is a short bridge... so should be quicker than Eau Gallie)
> 
> Sebastian River bridge in Sebastian -- construction trestle present, about half of pilings for first new track in place
> 
> SR 520 bridge on extension to Orlando -- still working on pilings, but most are at least partway in
> 
> Crane Creek Bridge in Melbourne -- piers for one track are done
> 
> Loxahatchee River Bridge in Jupiter -- old piers will be reused



So, I still think this is in order, with most likely to be the critical path on the top:

Eau Gallie River bridge in Melbourne -- temporary trestle in, just starting pilings for first new bridge for first new track. There's a whole second bridge for the second track which has to be built after that one is done (see Crane Creek).

Turkey Creek bridge in Palm Bay -- Temporary trestle in, first pilings for new bridge started (but this is a short bridge... so should be quicker than Eau Gallie)

Sebastian River bridge in Sebastian -- first new track is more than halfway through installing pilings, about a quarter of the way through beams. Longest bridge on the route. There's a whole second bridge which has to be built after this (see Crane Creek).

SR 520 bridge on extension to Orlando -- one of only three bridges on the extension which doesn't have beams yet. Still working on pilings, but most are at least partway in

Crane Creek Bridge in Melbourne -- dismantling temporary trestle #1, first new bridge is 90% done (still working on road bridge and last segment which requires full removal of temporary trestle) -- then they have to build temporary trestle #2 for the second new bridge.

Loxahatchee River Bridge in Jupiter -- not in latest videos; reusing old piers so should be quicker than most of this.

St Johns River bridge on extension: one of only three bridges on the extension which doesn't have beams yet. Pilings look like they're mostly in.

Econlockhatchee River bridge on extension: one of only three bridges on the extension which doesn't have beams yet. Short.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> I noticed they finally reopened Babcock Street grade crossing in Melbourne, to traffic after many days of closure for Brightline related construction.


I think New Haven is almost done, too, if not already completed. These along with NASA Blvd and Strawbridge were the most important to get out of the way. I highly commend the quality of work that has been done in all the rail crossing upgrades. Crossing the tracks in my car are barely noticeable.

Melbourne Ave is slated to be closed for a whole year. Easy enough (now) to get around it. Those first few days after the truck hit the girder was a mess all around that area.

I can't wait to see passenger trains coming through town!

On a completely different note, there has been a lot of discussion about Jacksonville. As far as connecting big cities go, Jacksonville is low on the priority list. I get that. And I also understand the need for high demand to justify the cost of infrastructure and the business case.

Most here know that I enjoy moonlighting as an Uber driver. I picked up a woman just south of Melbourne in Palm Bay. She paid close to $250 for a trip from Palm Bay to Jacksonville - about a 2.5 hour drive. Now, she could have taken Greyhound (limited availability, 4 1/2 hours, but as low as $21). Could have taken Amtrak from Kissimmee, but getting there would have still cost $100 and taken an hour PLUS the $39 (min) and 4 hours on the train. And flying? Foggetaboutit. Pricier than an Uber and no way to get the trip in less than 4 hours.

As much as I appreciated the business, I did lament that this was really the most viable choice for this lady of modest means. Greyhound, I guess, but ... it's Greyhound.


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## jis

Incidentally Amtrak's Harris informed us in passing at the RPA meeting that Florida DOT has reached out to Amtrak to follow up on the ConnectUS proposal for additional Florida intra-state train(s) connecting JAX, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. This is indeed a great development considering how terrible Florida DOT has been with regard to supporting any Amtrak service in Florida. We'll see what unfolds. Apparently they expect not to lose all ridership to Brightline given the fare differential that is likely to exist.


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## me_little_me

jis said:


> Incidentally Amtrak's Harris informed us in passing at the RPA meeting that Florida DOT has reached out to Amtrak to follow up on the ConnectUS proposal for additional Florida intra-state train(s) connecting JAX, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. This is indeed a great development considering how terrible Florida DOT has been with regard to supporting any Amtrak service in Florida. We'll see what unfolds. Apparently they expect not to lose all ridership to Brightline given the fare differential that is likely to exist.


Any way to run a train from downtown Jacksonville to the present Jacksonville station then to Miami? If that train had multiple runs and some of those coordinated with the Silvers, people could get to/from downtown Jacksonville to the rest of the country.

Of course, that is still a dream for the Floridians. I could care less.


----------



## Qapla

For going south it would almost make more sense to go from downtown Jacksonville to Palatka if you want to connect with Amtrak - as going from downtown to Amtrak JAX would take you north before going south


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Incidentally Amtrak's Harris informed us in passing at the RPA meeting that Florida DOT has reached out to Amtrak to follow up on the ConnectUS proposal for additional Florida intra-state train(s) connecting JAX, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. This is indeed a great development considering how terrible Florida DOT has been with regard to supporting any Amtrak service in Florida. We'll see what unfolds. Apparently they expect not to lose all ridership to Brightline given the fare differential that is likely to exist.


I missed that at the RPA meeting. I'll believe Florida DOT is in serious conversations with Amtrak when they convince Amtrak to move Miami station to somewhere useful; at the moment I doubt it's real. Maybe some individual in DOT who doesn't represent the whole department.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> My only surprise is that they don't have the hysterical opposition to high platforms which most of the US freight railroads have. Why, perhaps it is actually possible to run freight trains past standard high platforms without problem. CSX and NS should take notes and learn how.


Well, the thing is that they're "starting fresh" and most stations have built-in bypass trackage. I suspect that if Amtrak went to every Class I and offered to pay to either (1) build a no-reduced-speed-needed bypass or (2) offered to move the station off the main line in such a way as it didn't interrupt mainline service when their trains came into the station, most of those objections would vanish. FEC also doesn't have a lot of freight traffic to begin with versus (say) the BNSF transcon, so "juggling" that traffic is far less of a problem...which of course leads back to the fact that the resulting operation on FEC is likely to be approaching half-and-half pax business and freight.


----------



## VentureForth

Qapla said:


> For going south it would almost make more sense to go from downtown Jacksonville to Palatka if you want to connect with Amtrak - as going from downtown to Amtrak JAX would take you north before going south


Yeah - but Amtrak JAX is a service station, with like a 30-45 minute dwell time. Much easier to coordinate with connections, even if they are running late (they still dwell for quite sometime). I would prefer Amtrak JAX to downtown, then down the FEC.



neroden said:


> I missed that at the RPA meeting. I'll believe Florida DOT is in serious conversations with Amtrak when they convince Amtrak to move Miami station to somewhere useful; at the moment I doubt it's real. Maybe some individual in DOT who doesn't represent the whole department.


They did. Miami Airport. Ooops.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> My only surprise is that they don't have the hysterical opposition to high platforms which most of the US freight railroads have. Why, perhaps it is actually possible to run freight trains past standard high platforms without problem. CSX and NS should take notes and learn how.


They don't need to worry about high level platforms clashing with freight trains because all high platform stations existing and planned on Brightline where the route is shared with freight have or will have a freight bypass track, and that is their general plan. The platforms for TriRail only stations are all low platform.

My information from Brightline suggest that there will be no freight traffic on new Brightline trackage through the airport. Only freight traffic on trackage partly on airport property will be on the OUC trackage like is the case now.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> My information from Brightline suggest that there will be no freight traffic on new Brightline trackage through the airport. Only freight traffic on trackage partly on airport property will be on the OUC trackage like is the case now.


...Using that new little joggle they created by International Corporate Park Blvd? It's current condition is certainly no better than to accommodate construction equipment. Looks way too curvy. It didn't look like they prepped that construction junction to accommodate freight without a complete redo. Not saying that means they won't, but it doesn't seem to be part of the imminent plan.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> Well, the thing is that they're "starting fresh" and most stations have built-in bypass trackage. I suspect that if Amtrak went to every Class I and offered to pay to either (1) build a no-reduced-speed-needed bypass or (2) offered to move the station off the main line in such a way as it didn't interrupt mainline service when their trains came into the station, most of those objections would vanish. FEC also doesn't have a lot of freight traffic to begin with versus (say) the BNSF transcon, so "juggling" that traffic is far less of a problem...which of course leads back to the fact that the resulting operation on FEC is likely to be approaching half-and-half pax business and freight.


Well, that does seem to be the CSX policy (have a station siding and they're happy), as demonstrated in Rochester and Buffalo. Interesting given CSX's notoriously uncooperative behavior and gratutitously dishonest, frivolous legal filings in other matters. Due to the history of Superliner use, UP and BNSF haven't been asked to have high platforms, so who knows what their opinions are. I'm not sure whether NS is really following the same policy as CSX on this, but maybe.


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Well, that does seem to be the CSX policy (have a station siding and they're happy), as demonstrated in Rochester and Buffalo. Interesting given CSX's notoriously uncooperative behavior and gratutitously dishonest, frivolous legal filings in other matters. Due to the history of Superliner use, UP and BNSF haven't been asked to have high platforms, so who knows what their opinions are. I'm not sure whether NS is really following the same policy as CSX on this, but maybe.


It's hard to tell. The two new Amtrak stations on NS tracks in recent years are both off of a double main. Norfolk is a low platform, Roanoke is a high platform, but in both cases you can relatively easily get freight around without going close to the platform. To the extent that Charlottesville got an overhaul, it's a low platform from a little while back IINM.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I suspect that if Amtrak went to every Class I and offered to pay to either (1) build a no-reduced-speed-needed bypass or (2) offered to move the station off the main line in such a way as it didn't interrupt mainline service when their trains came into the station, most of those objections would vanish.



Be careful what you wish for.

If a train is on the main line, dispatchers know they have no choice but to keep it moving.

If they can move a train into a hole, there is a danger they will leave it there and let everything else overtake, which means punctuality goes ever further downhill.

It's OK somewhere like FEC where passenger trains have strong support. But I'd hate to think what some of the more lukewarm railroads could do.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> ...Using that new little joggle they created by International Corporate Park Blvd? It's current condition is certainly no better than to accommodate construction equipment. Looks way too curvy. It didn't look like they prepped that construction junction to accommodate freight without a complete redo. Not saying that means they won't, but it doesn't seem to be part of the imminent plan.



I agree.

Not to mention the question of whether there are any significant freight flows wort pursuing here. You don't build tracks on the off chance that somebody will find a use for them.

My guess is this spur is provided purely for construction access and will be dismantled when construction is complete.


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## jis

Brightline high-tech trains for Orlando service roll off production line in California


The first train set will depart the factory Monday for a cross-country excursion from Sacramento to Brightline's West Palm Beach station



www.floridatoday.com


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> If a train is on the main line, dispatchers know they have no choice but to keep it moving.
> 
> If they can move a train into a hole, there is a danger they will leave it there and let everything else overtake, which means punctuality goes ever further downhill.
> 
> It's OK somewhere like FEC where passenger trains have strong support. But I'd hate to think what some of the more lukewarm railroads could do.


Yes, but they already _do_ this in places where it's the only train that can fit into a passing siding (because the intermodals are too long to go there)...or in places where they can just use a convenient siding. I don't see how this notably makes things worse; if anything, if the train is going into the hole for half an hour, I'd rather it be in a town where you could DoorDash some food to the train or step off to stretch your legs than in the middle of nowhere.

Also, more frequent passing sidings (if only by adding them in the form of a station siding) means that you can potentially reduce those wait times when the train _does_ go into the hole.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline high-tech trains for Orlando service roll off production line in California
> 
> 
> The first train set will depart the factory Monday for a cross-country excursion from Sacramento to Brightline's West Palm Beach station
> 
> 
> 
> www.floridatoday.com


Fascinating that Brightline's trains are rolling off within a few days of VIA's first one. That's one busy production line...but it sounds like the orders are probably also in some sort of alternating order.


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## Qapla

Interesting Update Video


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> Fascinating that Brightline's trains are rolling off within a few days of VIA's first one. That's one busy production line...but it sounds like the orders are probably also in some sort of alternating order.



I doubt that Siemens are building complete trains production-line style, but rather that individual cars and locomotives are being built each at their own pace on different berths, and finished cars are accumulating until there is sufficient equipment on site to call it a train and make a transfer viable.

I guess Brightline also prefers to have them delivered that way as there is not much they can do with individual cars coming in one by one, but a complete train can be used for testing or crew training or even as a spare set for use in passenger service on the operating segment. 

And of course it also make better press to announce they have received a first full train rather than explaining they have received a car or a batch of cars.


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## west point

Although the cars are not identical has Brightline line determined if their cars do not have the lead potable water problem ?


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## VentureForth

Does WPB have enough room to store new trainsets? What do they have now? 4? This makes 5? I suppose they can integrate it with the WPB-MIA route for a while, but they can't even test the route up to Cocoa for several more months.


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## jis

west point said:


> Although the cars are not identical has Brightline line determined if their cars do not have the lead potable water problem ?


Yes.


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## VentureForth

Is that as in "the lead car" or is it a problem with "lead" in the potable water system?


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Does WPB have enough room to store new trainsets? What do they have now? 4? This makes 5? I suppose they can integrate it with the WPB-MIA route for a while, but they can't even test the route up to Cocoa for several more months.


They had 5 sets from the previous tranche. This tranche is another 5 sets with the same color set, so at the end they will have two sets of each color. The existing sets interiors are being upgraded to match the new sets' apparently.

At the end of delivery of this tranche they will have ten identical sets with options for adding upto five more cars per set over time.

I believe there is plenty of space to store ten 5 car sets in WPB since it is designed to home 5 ten car sets.

Speaking of testing there is no second track to be found at all around Port Malabar Road. I guess they will get there after taking care of stuff in Melbourne. Lot of second tracks to be laid yet.


----------



## Palmland

If Brightline does come to JAX, best station is to restore the old Jax Union Terminal as the station. It was discussed many times when we lived there but never happened. The head house nicely preserved as a convention center but extensive track work needed. It would require a back up move for any train going via Orlando but good head on connection if the Meteor continued south via FEC/Brightline. There was an Amtrak demo train that tested that in the early 2000’s. It’s downtown location provides good local transit options including the skyway system.


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## VentureForth

Palmland said:


> If Brightline does come to JAX, best station is to restore the old Jax Union Terminal as the station. It was discussed many times when we lived there but never happened. The head house nicely preserved as a convention center but extensive track work needed. It would require a back up move for any train going via Orlando but good head on connection if the Meteor continued south via FEC/Brightline. There was an Amtrak demo train that tested that in the early 2000’s. It’s downtown location provides good local transit options including the skyway system.


It would pass there anyway if an ultimate goal would be to have a cross (or same) platform transfer to Amtrak at their JAX station. I remember the test train. Wish it happened then. But I would prefer Brightline to run to JAX rather than Amtrak.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> It would pass there anyway if an ultimate goal would be to have a cross (or same) platform transfer to Amtrak at their JAX station. I remember the test train. Wish it happened then. But I would prefer Brightline to run to JAX rather than Amtrak.


Brightline is unlikely to run on CSX rails, so it is a fair bet that they will build a station somewhere around the old station. There are are plans for such. As for whether Amtrak might or might not serve it, that is harder to predict than whether a hurricane will make landfall in JAX next year


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## joelkfla

No mention of a food service car, so I guess the rumors of one being added to the Orlando trains were false.

I noticed that the class of service is painted on the outside of the cars; I don't recall seeing that on the earlier trainsets (or I missed it if it was). And it looks like "Select" class has been renamed "Premium Service".

Hadn't Brightline said earlier that the new trainsets would be delivered directly to the new heavy maintenance facility at the airport, via the OUC lead? Perhaps future ones will be if the facility is ready and the connection tracked by then.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> No mention of a food service car, so I guess the rumors of one being added to the Orlando trains were false.


Sometime back they had said there will not be any food service car in the initial service to Orlando. The food service cars appear in the optioal additional five cars for each set which are to be added at some point in the future, I suppose if growth in traffic justifies such.


----------



## Mailliw

I wonder if Brightline will just stick with at seat service like VIA?


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> I wonder if Brightline will just stick with at seat service like VIA?


That is their plan. It will be complementary in Premium Class and for a reasonable cost in Standard Class. It is also likely that a Service upgrade will be sold as a package to Standard Class passengers. They have not quite laid this out yet, but this is close to what was there before the COVID shutdown.


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## Mailliw

It helps that Brightline isn't locked into the same on-board staffing model as Amtrak.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> That is their plan. It will be complementary in Premium Class and for a reasonable cost in Standard Class. It is also likely that a Service upgrade will be sold as a package to Standard Class passengers. They have not quite laid this out yet, but this is close to what was there before the COVID shutdown.



Agreed, but there would still need to be some sort of kitchenette or servery to be able to store and heat food, no matter how compact and minimalistic. So without a car that has space set aside for that purpose they will only be serving cold snacks.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> Agreed, but there would still need to be some sort of kitchenette or servery to be able to store and heat food, no matter how compact and minimalistic. So without a car that has space set aside for that purpose they will only be serving cold snacks.


Since it was a trolley service back then and there is no different on board facility, I presume it will still be trolley service, and whatever can be served out of them for the time being. I have not seen anything that says that they intend to serve more than snacks in the initial service offering to Orlando.


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## neroden

For a relatively short service which adheres to its timetable, it is less essential to have on-board kitchen facilities than to have suitable commissary facilities at the key stations. It is perfectly possible to load the trolleys at Orlando and at Miami.


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> For a relatively short service which adheres to its timetable, it is less essential to have on-board kitchen facilities than to have suitable commissary facilities at the key stations. It is perfectly possible to load the trolleys at Orlando and at Miami.


Personally, I don't so much tare about full meal service, but rather to have a lounge car where I could stretch and hang out with a cup of coffee (or something stronger). 

The Venture cars are very comfy, but over 3 hours it would still be nice to have some place to walk to for a change of environment from time to time. That's part of the appeal of trains over planes.


----------



## Qapla

Another Update Video


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Personally, I don't so much tare about full meal service, but rather to have a lounge car where I could stretch and hang out with a cup of coffee (or something stronger).
> 
> The Venture cars are very comfy, but over 3 hours it would still be nice to have some place to walk to for a change of environment from time to time. That's part of the appeal of trains over planes.


These guys are in it to turn a profit. Every seat should be revenue generating. Everything else is wasted space. Honestly, it looks like the seats are comfortable enough to go three hours with plenty of room to stretch and work. Windows are all the same size. It's not like this train is traversing the Rockies or Denali. First Class is always an option for more comfort and imbibements.

The Shinkansen got rid of its dining cars decades ago. The typical less than 3-hr jaunt was just too quick to effectively serve enough meals to generate the income required to offset the expenses. Many travelers would purchase lunch boxes at the station or from the onboard trolley service. Adult beverages are always available, and even with trolley service, vending machines are abundant both on and off trains.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> These guys are in it to turn a profit. Every seat should be revenue generating. Everything else is wasted space. Honestly, it looks like the seats are comfortable enough to go three hours with plenty of room to stretch and work. Windows are all the same size. It's not like this train is traversing the Rockies or Denali. First Class is always an option for more comfort and imbibements.
> 
> The Shinkansen got rid of its dining cars decades ago. The typical less than 3-hr jaunt was just too quick to effectively serve enough meals to generate the income required to offset the expenses. Many travelers would purchase lunch boxes at the station or from the onboard trolley service. Adult beverages are always available, and even with trolley service, vending machines are abundant both on and off trains.



Sadly, you are probably right.

Furthermore, most Brightline riders probably don't have that much experience with passenger trains of any description and won't know what they're missing and thus won't be demanding it.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Roaming Railfan reporting that the first work train has arrived at the Stanton OUC branch - 528 mainline junction. The train has moved out onto the 528 siding and becomes the first train ever on the line. Pics on FB. 

Photo credits to The Roaming Railfan


----------



## JWM

Call me skeptical, but hopeful, as Brightline turning a profit would be a shock to me, but they did studies etc. The market is huge though and good luck to them. Onto Tampa and, yes, even St. Pete would be another huge plus.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Connection of the big markets is obviously the goal - its hard to imagine getting financial backing for trains, stations, double tracking wpb- cocoa , and the enormous expense of cocoa - MCO without proving this is very viable. 

I am an optimist about this but I also have worked for two of the biggest companies in the world. Investors are rarely optimistic


----------



## Qapla

Scott Orlando said:


> Roaming Railfan reporting that the first work train has arrived at the Stanton OUC branch - 528 mainline junction. The train has moved out onto the 528 siding and becomes the first train ever on the line. Pics on FB.
> 
> Photo credits to The Roaming Railfan



Here is the video of this



Watching that load negotiate the curve and the bends was really nifty - the rails are 1600' long ... the length of the train - they were held to 5MPH


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## joelkfla

*Bright Red now has a twin, and they’re coming home. *

No in-transit shots, just a collection of construction scenes.


----------



## Qapla

The newest update - some really nice shots and insight on how the various cars are made


----------



## George Harris

VentureForth said:


> The Shinkansen got rid of its dining cars decades ago. The typical less than 3-hr jaunt was just too quick to effectively serve enough meals to generate the income required to offset the expenses. Many travelers would purchase lunch boxes at the station or from the onboard trolley service. Adult beverages are always available, and even with trolley service, vending machines are abundant both on and off trains.


In Japan, the box lunch is standard fare everywhere. They are good. Even with a dining car, it is entirely likely that a lot of the passengers would rather have a box lunch. Relaxing in your seat with a good lunch box is by most considered better than traipsing up and down the train to a dining car.


----------



## Qapla

Brightline sighting for Florida bound consist


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> Brightline sighting for Florida bound consist



Why are the car lights on?


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## west point

Car lights ? Visibility ! Anything to keep stupid drivers from running into the side of the train.


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## VentureForth

There is a Brighline crew "living" aboard the train during transit. There is a vlog on Facebook, but I can't link it from my work computer.


----------



## joelkfla

I guess that yellow line cutting across the bottom of the windows is part of the livery -- the "bright line", perhaps. At first, I thought they had stretched an extension cord the length of the train.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> I guess that yellow line cutting across the bottom of the windows is part of the livery -- the "bright line", perhaps. At first, I thought they had stretched an extension cord the length of the train.



it does look a bit messy, doesn't it?

but if making the train look hipsterish helps business, then so be it.


----------



## jis

George Harris said:


> In Japan, the box lunch is standard fare everywhere. They are good. Even with a dining car, it is entirely likely that a lot of the passengers would rather have a box lunch. Relaxing in your seat with a good lunch box is by most considered better than traipsing up and down the train to a dining car.


Indeed! The so called Ekiben (Railway Station Bento) is an integral institution associated with train stations. They are available almost everywhere and are used by many traveling by train. And the food in them is actually very good and tasty with lot of variety available.

But it works because stations serve many trains, not one train per day. Though in the US they would probably be rejected as yet another version of Flex Meal if anyone tried to deploy them on Amtrak.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Indeed! The so called Ekiben (Railway Station Bento) is an integral institution associated with train stations. They are available almost everywhere and are used by many traveling by train. And the food in them is actually very good and tasty with lot of variety available.
> 
> But it works because stations serve many trains, not one train per day. Though in the US they would probably be rejected as yet another version of Flex Meal if anyone tried to deploy them on Amtrak.



The interesting thing about Ekiban is that most (certainly not all) are sold cold. We seem to have a much greater demand for "hot" foods here in the US.


----------



## Qapla

A look inside the new train


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> Indeed! The so called Ekiben (Railway Station Bento) is an integral institution associated with train stations. They are available almost everywhere and are used by many traveling by train. And the food in them is actually very good and tasty with lot of variety available.
> 
> But it works because stations serve many trains, not one train per day. Though in the US they would probably be rejected as yet another version of Flex Meal if anyone tried to deploy them on Amtrak.


I think they would work great on the NEC/Empire Service/Keystone Service. Then they could turn the cafe cars into real bar/lounge cars with bartenders and mixed drinks and maybe make a lot more money, as it seems to me that most of the cafe car customers are purchasing mainly booze.

For the long-distance trains, if they could run reliably on schedule, they could have land-based caterers prepare the meals and load them on board at intermediate stops. For instance, dinner on the Capitol Limited Westbound could be prepared by a caterer in the Martinsburg, WV area, and loaded on the train and served after Harpers Ferry or Martinsburg. The meals could be delivered to one's seat or room, but passengers could take them to the Diner-Lounge if they wanted to a change of scenery for dinner.


----------



## MARC Rider

VentureForth said:


> The interesting thing about Ekiban is that most (certainly not all) are sold cold. We seem to have a much greater demand for "hot" foods here in the US.


The ekiben article on Wikipedia shows a picture of a sukiyaki ekiben that has "heating capabilities" I guess you buy it cold, and when you're ready to eat it, you activate some sort of chemical heater that heats up the package.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> The ekiben article on Wikipedia shows a picture of a sukiyaki ekiben that has "heating capabilities" I guess you buy it cold, and when you're ready to eat it, you activate some sort of chemical heater that heats up the package.


Just add water.


----------



## Qapla

Another view of the interior


----------



## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> For the long-distance trains, if they could run reliably on schedule, they could have land-based caterers prepare the meals and load them on board at intermediate stops.



If they could run reliably on schedule lots of other problems would be fixed too.


----------



## Qapla

Here's another look at Brightline heading through Chattanooga then Georgia on the way to Florida


----------



## VentureForth

That same UP unit is pulling it all the way from CA!


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> Another view of the interior



I am amazed that they gave these random railfans a VIP tour of both the passenger car & the engine in the middle of nowhere! What if one of those oldsters had fallen while climbing up the ladders?

Nevertheless, an excellent video with a wealth of heretofore unheard factoids. It's clear that the Brightline personnel on board are excited and proud of their equipment.


----------



## Qapla

Another interesting article about Brightline ...


----------



## Palmland

And yet another article in the Orlando newspaper

Brightline


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> I am amazed that they gave these random railfans a VIP tour of both the passenger car & the engine in the middle of nowhere! What if one of those oldsters had fallen while climbing up the ladders?
> 
> Nevertheless, an excellent video with a wealth of heretofore unheard factoids. It's clear that the Brightline personnel on board are excited and proud of their equipment.



it looks to me as if it was some sort of press event. Sometimes having a blog or a video channel qualifies for being allowed into such events. 

Sensible intelligent railroads know rail fans are likely to say positive things about them if they treat them well .


----------



## jis

The new train set (BrightRed) arrived at the West Palm Beach maintenance center on 10/14/21 pulled by an FECR locomotive.

It left Bowden Yard earlier in the day after a change of power from the UP unit to the FECR unit. Too bad I had no idea when it went by Melbourne. But of course these will become a common daily site in Melbourne when the Orlando service gets going.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> it looks to me as if it was some sort of press event. Sometimes having a blog or a video channel qualifies for being allowed into such events.
> 
> Sensible intelligent railroads know rail fans are likely to say positive things about them if they treat them well .


That was the one by Roaming Railfan, yes. The one by Casey Jones1970 was just a group of railfan friends who were taking pictures when the train happened to stop for traffic, and asked if they could come on board for a look around.


----------



## Qapla

joelkfla said:


> That was the one by Roaming Railfan



And he just posted another one of "BrightRed" in Florida being pulled by Florida East Coast Railway GP40-2


----------



## joelkfla

Just for the record, this YouTube animation of the proposed Brightline alignment along 417 was posted under a fictitious name by the I-Drive Chamber of Commerce.

They claim it's running through neighborhoods and "destroying precious wetlands". I didn't see any of that in the video. The last turn towards Disney does run past what looks like an apartment complex and crosses what appears to be a stretch of wetlands, but IIRC Brightline said they hadn't decided on the exact approach to Disney.

It's telling that they made up a false name to post it under, blocked comments, and linked to a website that has no contact links. It's only under "About Us" on that website that they finally reveal their identity.


----------



## Anderson

joelkfla said:


> Just add water.


So, basically like an MRE...

...though presumably better-tasting.


----------



## Qapla

Here's a good news coverage video of the new Brightline Red


----------



## VentureForth

Anyone know if the entire trackage between Cocoa and Miami is supposed to be double tracked? I know they can't do it all at once, but I was crossing the FEC at Eau Gallie in Melbourne and noticed there was no effort started to double the crossing. Didn't even see any grading or prep for a 2nd track in either direction. Maybe just a matter of time...


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Anyone know if the entire trackage between Cocoa and Miami is supposed to be double tracked?


Yes.


> I know they can't do it all at once, but I was crossing the FEC at Eau Gallie in Melbourne and noticed there was no effort started to double the crossing. Didn't even see any grading or prep for a 2nd track in either direction. Maybe just a matter of time...


Eau Gallie bridge is one of the slowest items on the route. I suspect in this case they will not build the crossing until the bridge is further along. They have been using the future ROW for the second track as a staging area for bridge construction with most of the bridges.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Anyone know if the entire trackage between Cocoa and Miami is supposed to be double tracked?


All of it in Brevard County will be double track. There will be a short segment on the St. Lucie River Bridge in Stuart that I believe will remain single track for now (at least that is what the FEIS says, and no revision has been issued so far making any changes). All the rest will be double track.


----------



## Qapla

Roaming Railfan just posted another update


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Crane Creek Bridge Construction - October 17, 2021*


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Simulated Service and Running Repair Facility*


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> All of it in Brevard County will be double track. There will be a short segment on the St. Lucie River Bridge in Stuart that I believe will remain single track for now (at least that is what the FEIS says, and no revision has been issued so far making any changes). All the rest will be double track.


About that...









Virgin Trains says it will replace the St. Lucie River railroad bridge


The higher-speed railroad, formerly known as Brightline, announced Friday it will replace the bridge that has been a flash point of controversy for years.



www.tcpalm.com





Yeah, it's a separate project and Brightline may start running before it's done. But they're double-tracking it.


----------



## VentureForth

> Virgin Trains says it will replace the St. Lucie River railroad bridge
> 
> 
> The higher-speed railroad, formerly known as Brightline, announced Friday it will replace the bridge that has been a flash point of controversy for years.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tcpalm.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's a separate project and Brightline may start running before it's done. But they're double-tracking it.



Two year old article. Think they'll go through with it now with Virgin no longer a partner?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Two year old article. Think they'll go through with it now with Virgin no longer a partner?


Since Virgin was contributing almost absolutely nothing other than Branson's bright smile, and mostly about collecting fees from Brightline for using the trademark, their absence should have no impact on what Brightline does. It is not very widely known that it is Brightline that kicked Virgin out and not the other way round. Virgin has since sued Brightline for damages and apparently not much has come of it either. I suspect when Virgin lost its last rail franchise in the UK the relationship became worth nothing for Brightline, and they exited at the first opportunity that presented itself.


----------



## neroden

County backs replacement of Stuart trestle


Martin County struggled to balance seeking grants and meeting its lawsuit settlement obligations with Virgin Trains



www.hometownnewstc.com





More recent. Brightline is looking for federal grant funding for that bridge, so they haven't started picking out contractors or anything yet.


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> County backs replacement of Stuart trestle
> 
> 
> Martin County struggled to balance seeking grants and meeting its lawsuit settlement obligations with Virgin Trains
> 
> 
> 
> www.hometownnewstc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More recent. Brightline is looking for federal grant funding for that bridge, so they haven't started picking out contractors or anything yet.


A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?


$100 million in an overall $3 billion to $4 billion project? And it is to improve overall performance. I would not bellyache over it.

There is a much larger state/federal funded project, possibly running up close to a billion even, if the tunnel option is chosen, which is what the boat owners prefer, coming up at Fort Lauderdale. But that is to a large extent to make rich boat owners happier. 

Frankly at Stuart they should spend some extra money and build a higher structure parallel to the Rte. 1 Highway bridge with eased curve allowing higher speed, if they are going to build a new bridge. I have no idea what they actually plan to do at present


----------



## VentureForth

MARC Rider said:


> A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?


That bridge has more than just Brightline implications. It affects the community, the boaters, the railroad infrastructure (FEC's freight ops), etc. A Federal grant to upgrade a bridge is hardly asking them to pay for and operate the private railroad. And it's really not like it'll cover all the costs, afaik....


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I suspect when Virgin lost its last rail franchise in the UK the relationship became worth nothing for Brightline, and they exited at the first opportunity that presented itself.



Virgin's UK rail franchise was not exactly a credit to Virgin and probably damaged the brand more than it strengthened it, so I don't really see how that would have brought any magic gold dust to the project.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Virgin's UK rail franchise was not exactly a credit to Virgin and probably damaged the brand more than it strengthened it, so I don't really see how that would have brought any magic gold dust to the project.


You’ll have to ask Patrick Goddard what they thought they were going to get out of it. But they did get out as soon as Virgin lost its rail franchise(s) in UK.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?


Sounds like Brightline is content to live with the existing bridge, but the local governments are the ones who want it replaced.

The commissioner quoted said that too much *federal *money had been spent, and then went on to list money contributed by local entities for stations in their area, but not a thing about federal monies. I think she knows not the difference between local funds and federal funds.


----------



## jis

Indeed, there are a lot of ancillary projects springing up along the FECR as a result of the Brightline investment, and these are all pushed by local governments. The biggest one so far is the SFRTA North East Corridor initiative, funded by the local governments for starting suburban service by Tri-Rail on the FECR corridor upto Aventura for now, possibly to be extended to at least Fort Lauderdale after the bridge situation is resolved in Fort Lauderdale.

Similarly, in Orlando people are seriously talking about the SunRail East-West Corridor even before almost anything has been built at all, not to mention trying to get a route via SR528-I-4 which is estimated to cost a billion dollars more to build, instead of the route that Brightline prefers.


----------



## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> A "Federal grant," eh? What's this about Brightline being totally funded by glorious private capital?


Well, they decided they don't need the double track bridge for Brightline proper and are doing it more as a favor to marine (boating) interests. So really, it's the federal government subsidizing recreational boating, which has been going on for a long time...


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> Well, they decided they don't need the double track bridge for Brightline proper and are doing it more as a favor to marine (boating) interests. So really, it's the federal government subsidizing recreational boating, which has been going on for a long time...


So the political culture in Florida had no problem with Federal subsidies of recreational boating, but passenger rail is only tolerated if it's done entirely with private capital?


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> So the political culture in Florida had no problem with Federal subsidies of recreational boating, but passenger rail is only tolerated if it's done entirely with private capital?


Then again the same Florida culture funds Tri-Rail and SunRail including acquiring rail RoWs and taking on the burden of rebuilding and maintaining them, that have proved to be of use to Amtrak too. So I guess it is again a strawman season? 

Incidentally, it is Brightline that has tried very hard to keep control of their project by staying clear of government entanglements wherever they could get away with it, and that is the source of the "no public money" propaganda more than anything that the admittedly brain dead governments at various levels in Florida could make stick.

As Brightline gets more established as a concept and accepted all around money from various places will trickle in. Notice what is happening with the North East Corridor project in Miami, and the developing conversation about the Orlando East-West Corridor. That is all government money to develop new corridor along Brightline trackage, that was instigated by the so called private money Brightline project.


----------



## jis

Brightline Unveils Brightline+


----------



## Qapla

*South Florida Brightline Construction - October 2021*


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction Michigan Ave 4 track 10 20 21*

Updating the crossing to *4 tracks*


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Brightline Unveils Brightline+


Hope they get this working well; I am quite sure it would be extremely effective in the LA and Las Vegas market.


----------



## daybeers

neroden said:


> Hope they get this working well; I am quite sure it would be extremely effective in the LA and Las Vegas market.


Not like there are already solutions for moving train loads of people efficiently that don't involve single-occupancy rideshare vehicles...


----------



## neroden

daybeers said:


> Not like there are already solutions for moving train loads of people efficiently that don't involve single-occupancy rideshare vehicles...


In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.

Miami is far more of a sprawl-mess. :-(


----------



## daybeers

neroden said:


> In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.
> 
> Miami is far more of a sprawl-mess. :-(


Downtown Miami isn't too sprawly, I don't see why you need ride share vehicles to get to your destination if it's downtown.


----------



## jis

Rideshare vehicles are for increasing the catchment area. They can be justified almost irrespective of the state of public transit in almost all connurberations


----------



## west point

How are the almost daily to weekly changes in dispatcher displays and openings of new CPs and track segments.? Are the dispatcher displays set up for the final track design with the sections not in service blocked off ?


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> In Las Vegas, *most* of the attractions are in a line, but then there's an ugly mess of sprawl on every side, containing most of the housing. Having taxis to the station seems wise, and having the railroad company operate the taxis makes sense.



I'm not really convinced that the railroad has to operate the taxis. This is just one more thing that absorbs management attention and one more startup investment and potential liability that the company will have on its books.

In most areas where there is a need for taxis, local taxi businesses and / or Uber rise up and meet that demand without the railroad having to organize it or worry about it unduly.

Which is not to say the railroad shouldn't work with those service providers and, for example, provide / integrate a booking portal of some sort.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> I'm not really convinced that the railroad has to operate the taxis. This is just one more thing that absorbs management attention and one more startup investment and potential liability that the company will have on its books.
> 
> In most areas where there is a need for taxis, local taxi businesses and / or Uber rise up and meet that demand without the railroad having to organize it or worry about it unduly.
> 
> Which is not to say the railroad shouldn't work with those service providers and, for example, provide / integrate a booking portal of some sort.


They don't *have* to. It's offered as a service upgrade for cost. I'm sure they are betting on the upgrade revenue to exceed costs. It's a business decision. The last mile has always been an issue, everywhere. _Offering_ to integrate it is genius.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> How are the almost daily to weekly changes in dispatcher displays and openings of new CPs and track segments.? Are the dispatcher displays set up for the final track design with the sections not in service blocked off ?


Dispatcher displays are on large computer driven displays. The hard wired displays of yore are well, left in the yore. Displays can be changed to conform with the most current reality quite easily now.

Some of the more recent dispatch centers seem to de-emphasize huge wall displays and trend towards large desktop displays allowing individuals to focus on their area of concern while being able to get a more global view when needed. Where there are huge wall displays, the new ones are on huge flat panels, and are in some sense "soft", rather than the old hard wired and sculpted ones.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Rideshare vehicles are for increasing the catchment area. They can be justified almost irrespective of the state of public transit in almost all connurberations


I do think it's funny that "taxis" have been renamed "rideshare" in public discourse


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Dispatcher displays are on large computer driven displays. The hard wired displays of yore are well, left in the yore. Displays can be changed to conform with the most current reality quite easily now.
> 
> Some of the more recent dispatch centers seem to de-emphasize huge wall displays and trend towards large desktop displays allowing individuals to focus on their area of concern while being able to get a more global view when needed. Where there are huge wall displays, the new ones are on huge flat panels, and are in some sense "soft", rather than the old hard wired and sculpted ones.


Pretty-big wall displays are still used fairly often, so that there can be a global view, but because everything is in software, you can have the big picture up on the wall, while simultaneously each dispatcher has their local area up on their personal large desktop screen. Or several personal large desktop screens.

The redundant information is good. It means that every dispatcher can see the state of the entire system, while also focusing in on control of the section they're actually dispatching.

It was pretty cool to have a tour of a modern dispatching center. The software replicates more-or-less what you would have seen on a hardwired board, but it's all software, so it is really quite straightforward to change it as needed to correspond with the physical changes in the track and signals.

From a quick google search, here's an example of what one of the actual dispatcher screens looks like.








NOT Train Dispatcher 3


Here's the real thing: A digicon work station showing BNSF's Pasco East Territory between Lakeside Jct. and Pasco, Washington. Red lines are track occupancies (trains, with ID's referring to legend on bottom of screen), green lines are routes lined.




railroadforums.com





Don't get me wrong; rewiring the actual safety-critical track circuits, making sure the insulated block joints are in the right places, building the signal cabins and setting up fiber-optic connections to the dispatching center, etc. is still a huge amount of work, but the dispatchers-office end of things is trivial to change now.


----------



## west point

talk of software changes always makes one cringe. A missed colon or a simple typo might not show up for 6 months. Something occurring 100 miles away might cause a hiccup.


----------



## neroden

They do have a whole testing protocol every time they change something. It's not instant, it's old-style deployment & testing (which seems to have stopped in most of the software industry back in the mid-1990s).


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> They do have a whole testing protocol every time they change something. It's not instant, it's old-style deployment & testing (which seems to have stopped in most of the software industry back in the mid-1990s).



having spent three years of my life in automated software testing and quality assurance I can assure you that even with very thorough testing procedures there will always be a glitch or two we will have missed.

Nobody sells software with the promise that its perfect. Standards authorities merely lay down the required levels of integrity and testing.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brightline wants another billion in PABs.

Brightline wants another $1 billion in financing for Miami to Orlando

It includes an additional $310M to be spent in Brevard, $180M in Orange, and $90M in Palm Beach counties.

The presentation document lists additional track and bridges construction, but no details of it. I recall that after the last PAB tranche was sold in 2019, Brightline said that would complete the financing for phase 2 WPB to MCO.

What changed?

This is the link to the presentation I have attached.

https://ca5cce56-0e6c-4988-82a7-748...d/b1b27e_7eeb09ba8be04eb18a339ebd91117e62.pdf

you can also look for it on this web page link NOTICES | fdfc


----------



## neroden

This is basically improvements. The extra bridge which isn't strictly needed, the extra stations probably.


----------



## cirdan

Isn’t this a bit late ? Now that the line is virtually complete and the trains are being delivered ? I guess this is upgrade work to improve the line subsequently and not something needed to complete the original line .


----------



## jis

Brightline considering upto a total of 12 stations in Florida


----------



## Scott Orlando

Seems like there could be a supply of revenue with maybe a few more.
The stations:
Obviously- half the list

- Miami
- Ft Lauderdale
- WPB
- Aveventura
- Boca Raton
- Orlando

….to Tampa
- Tampa
- Disney Springs

….so that leaves possibly
- Cocoa
- Ft Pierce or Stuart
- Lakeland
- Orlando Convention/I Drive (if 528 route)

It seems like they are (very smartly) not making anyone promises beyond the first 8. The last four seem like the best choices
(Disclaimer: I think BL needs to get I Drive hotels , Florida government, Universal, Sea World, OIA, onboard to make 528 happen. I work for Disney so we are a no brainer, but a station at both would benefit everyone)

The goal is both ridership and near station land development for BL/FECI. Every train doesn’t have to stop at every station. The FEC Tri Rail plan is a brilliant commuter route. So would an East-West Sunrail route in Orlando,...Thoughts??


----------



## VentureForth

I think what they really want to avoid is local traffic between I-Drive and Disney. It would clog up a lot of seats preventing availability for through travel.

I wonder which would be better? Separate or shared Sunrail service for that local traffic? Even though presumably Brightline would have different platforms and ticketing than Sunrail, the additional traffic could hinder Brightline's prime customer base. But, it looks like they have that figured out in the Miami-WPB corridor, with freight, too.

I did my time at WDW. Where are you at, Scott? Feel free to IM if you don't want to make it a public convo.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Corporate IT in Celebration


----------



## VentureForth

Scott Orlando said:


> Corporate IT in Celebration


Nice. I was just a full time hourly guy back in the 90's. Did everything from central reservations, minibars, bouncer at Pleasure Island, Jungle Cruise skipper, etc. Also had 5 years at Tokyo Disneyland in the 80's. Would have loved to take the engineering I'm doing now and using it there. Had a friend in industrial engineering at the main office next to Casting, but I guess most corporate stuff has moved to celebration.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> I think what they really want to avoid is local traffic between I-Drive and Disney. It would clog up a lot of seats preventing availability for through travel.
> 
> I wonder which would be better? Separate or shared Sunrail service for that local traffic? Even though presumably Brightline would have different platforms and ticketing than Sunrail, the additional traffic could hinder Brightline's prime customer base. But, it looks like they have that figured out in the Miami-WPB corridor, with freight, too.
> 
> I did my time at WDW. Where are you at, Scott? Feel free to IM if you don't want to make it a public convo.


I mean...I feel like the solution would be to either handle I-Drive-to-Disney with pricing/capacity controls or to (potentially) run some Airport-to-Disney trains with a different configuration. If they're running 1-2tpa Orlando-Tampa, another 1-2tpa wouldn't likely foul the line _too_ badly...


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> I mean...I feel like the solution would be to either handle I-Drive-to-Disney with pricing/capacity controls or to (potentially) run some Airport-to-Disney trains with a different configuration. If they're running 1-2tpa Orlando-Tampa, another 1-2tpa wouldn't likely foul the line _too_ badly...


Is tpa trains per hour? If so, that'd be fine, especially since this is an all new, exclusive ROW. I'd say that 10 minute headways in each direction should be fine with current technologies. 

If it hasn't been considered already, any new trackage between MCO and Disney should be as grade separated as Cocoa to MCO. There are just too many bad drivers when you get thousands of folks in from outside the US who are not used to driving here.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> If it hasn't been considered already, any new trackage between MCO and Disney should be as grade separated as Cocoa to MCO. There are just too many bad drivers when you get thousands of folks in from outside the US who are not used to driving here.


It will be completely grade separated as will the Disney Springs to Tampa segment be.


----------



## jiml

Not an ideal return:
Brightline Hits Car in Pompano Beach on 1st Day High-Speed Train Returns – NBC 6 South Florida (nbcmiami.com)


----------



## Qapla

The car turned onto the tracks while trying to turn right onto the road ... this was not the fault of the train.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 1: Narcoossee Road, SR 417, Innovation Way - Oct/Nov 2021*


----------



## jiml

Qapla said:


> The car turned onto the tracks while trying to turn right onto the road ... this was not the fault of the train.


No argument but, according to the media, it's always the fault of the train. You'd think it leaves the tracks and hunts down innocent victims. There were several worse headlines describing this incident.


----------



## Qapla

I have commented several times about this disparity in reporting and the way the media phrases things.


----------



## Cal

Qapla said:


> The car turned onto the tracks while trying to turn right onto the road ... this was not the fault of the train.


Is it EVER the fault of the train?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Cal said:


> Is it EVER the fault of the train?



There was an incident with Tri-Rail a long time ago where the train crew did not flag a crossing they were supposed to and struck a truck.


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> There was an incident with Tri-Rail a long time ago where the train crew did not flag a crossing they were supposed to and struck a truck.



When I learn to drive, which admittedly was many many years ago, I was told to always look both ways before crossing any rail tracks, and not to blindly trust any warning lights or other mechanisms.

My driving instructor would go ballistic if he thought I hadn't looked properly so I made a point of making sure he had seen I was looking.

Once we crossed a track that I knew (as a local railfan) that was not only disused but not connected to anything because tracks had been removed and built on in both directions. When I told him so he still went ballistic and said that's no reason not to look. You never know he said, because things might change.


----------



## JoshP

But the thing is Brightline had accident yesterday hitting a car and hurt a mother/child.


----------



## cirdan

Scott Orlando said:


> The goal is both ridership and near station land development for BL/FECI. Every train doesn’t have to stop at every station. The FEC Tri Rail plan is a brilliant commuter route. So would an East-West Sunrail route in Orlando,...Thoughts??



The problem with not having every train stop at every station mean

1) individual stations get less service overall
2) the schedule gets much more complex to understand and may involve having to change trains and long waits which will make it less attractive overall

Unless there is a massive increase in overall train frequency I think skipping stops is not a good idea. This sort of thing appeals to railfan foamers who like to see complex operations and intricate schedules with trains overtaking all over the place, but they don't appeal to the average travelling public.

If a stop is not worth serving it shouldn't be built.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> The problem with not having every train stop at every station mean
> 
> 1) individual stations get less service overall
> 2) the schedule gets much more complex to understand and may involve having to change trains and long waits which will make it less attractive overall
> 
> Unless there is a massive increase in overall train frequency I think skipping stops is not a good idea. This sort of thing appeals to railfan foamers who like to see complex operations and intricate schedules with trains overtaking all over the place, but they don't appeal to the average travelling public.
> 
> If a stop is not worth serving it shouldn't be built.


I disagree. Station stops should depend on ridership patterns and counts.

If trains are running on 30-minute headways during peak hours, I see nothing wrong with alternating between express and local trains, as long as the express won't catch up to the local.

If a station has ridership in the peak times but virtually no riders during midday, I think it's OK to serve it peak times only, or perhaps stopping every 2 hours instead of each hour during midday.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> I disagree. Station stops should depend on ridership patterns and counts.
> 
> If trains are running on 30-minute headways during peak hours, I see nothing wrong with alternating between express and local trains, as long as the express won't catch up to the local.
> 
> If a station has ridership in the peak times but virtually no riders during midday, I think it's OK to serve it peak times only, or perhaps stopping every 2 hours instead of each hour during midday.


I agree to a point. However, it can create less demand during peak times if service is too sparse during non peak times. For example, in Dallas, I would ride the TRE from Dallas to Fort Worth for some reason in the morning during the morning rush. But I needed to return in the middle of the day. But the frequency during the middle of the day was around 2 hours (this was way back in the early TRE days). So, I opted to drive instead. Some of the stations don't even have a place to sit or shade from the sun. Very uncomfortable.

I think a compromised approach would keep ridership and temper the costs.


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> The problem with not having every train stop at every station mean
> 
> 1) individual stations get less service overall
> 2) the schedule gets much more complex to understand and may involve having to change trains and long waits which will make it less attractive overall
> 
> Unless there is a massive increase in overall train frequency I think skipping stops is not a good idea. This sort of thing appeals to railfan foamers who like to see complex operations and intricate schedules with trains overtaking all over the place, but they don't appeal to the average travelling public.
> 
> If a stop is not worth serving it shouldn't be built.


NYC has been able to survive with express trains that skip stops and local ones that don't. So does Amtrak with both Acelas and Regionals. Not every stop needs to have every train.


----------



## VentureForth

me_little_me said:


> NYC has been able to survive with express trains that skip stops and local ones that don't. So does Amtrak with both Acelas and Regionals. Not every stop needs to have every train.


Brightline as a whole can have express trains and "local" trains.
The ROW can accommodate another service, ie: Sunrail and Tri-Rail with their own stops that Brightline has nothing to do with.

In the first scenario, this will only be useful if there are bypass stations. IE: Want an express from MIA to MCO with a stop in FLL? That's fine, but if you don't pass any other trains along the route, you'll still get to Orlando after the previous train no matter how long the ride takes.

In the second scenario, you will have completely incompatible platforms, if I understand correctly. You don't want a closed-gated train using the same platforms as an open-gated train. That, and commuters use low platforms and Brightline uses high platforms.

I guess, because by definition, shared commuter/Brightline stations will have different platforms, these will be passing stations so Brightline can hop scotch over Tri-Rail. If Tri-Rail thinks they are going to get 18 stations within Brightline's 3/4 between MIA and FLL, then just about every exclusive Tri Rail station may need a bypass track for Brightline. Maybe not all; depends on the scheduling and frequency of each.

Back to the first scenario - moot point until they decide on the new stations, but Boca and Aventura should be places where the "express" could overtake the "local" along with perhaps Jupiter and Cocoa.


----------



## JoshP

Check this video:









Passenger Trains of North America | Facebook


Share photos and videos of US/CA/Mex passenger trains from the beginning to modern day. All railroads from the US and Canadian and Mexican railroads that run business trains and handle commuter...




www.facebook.com





Car accident with Brightline


----------



## Qapla

@JoshP - It would be more accurate to say that the car hit/blocked the train since it was the car that was at fault ... not Brightline


----------



## neroden

Brightline's objections to the I-Drive/Universal route are NOT about local traffic. They'll take it! 

The objection is financial. Brightline, like any private passenger train service, has a pretty narrow model for breaking even and covering capital costs. They can't afford the extra cost; the extra local traffic would not cover it, and it would threaten their already fragile financial model. As they have said repeatedly, if someone else (like Universal, the city, or the county) pays the difference in cost, Brightline will go for the I-Drive/Universal route in a heartbeat, because *then* the local traffic is free money to them.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> I guess, because by definition, shared commuter/Brightline stations will have different platforms, these will be passing stations so Brightline can hop scotch over Tri-Rail.


Not necessarily. In Orlando, stations that are shared by Amtrak & SunRail have 2 tracks with end-to-end side platforms. At the Orlando & Kissimmee stations, the slightly higher SunRail platforms were built north of the low-level Amtrak platforms.

I've seen a similar arrangement on YouTube where stations are shared by commuter trains and light rail; I think it was in the Hague.


----------



## Barb Stout

jiml said:


> Not an ideal return:
> Brightline Hits Car in Pompano Beach on 1st Day High-Speed Train Returns – NBC 6 South Florida (nbcmiami.com)


So how many train tracks/road intersections are there without warning lights and guard rails are there on Brightline's route? In the embedded image in this report of another crash that was fatal, it didn't look like there were any. How can that be? Or did those just get cut out of the frame of the video?


----------



## jis

Here is where the incident took place. It is a protected crossing:









NE 3rd St · Pompano Beach, FL


Pompano Beach, FL




www.google.com





All street crossings on Brightline are protected.

This one may have been a case of someone who lost situational awareness and thought that the railroad tracks were Flagler Avenue...


----------



## Scott Orlando

All good points. Not stopping everywhere reduces scheduling complexity. But an express skipping Aventura or Stuart or Cocoa keeps that higher speed rail - well …higher speed.

Secondly, the 528 route would be grade separated and double tracked. That’s enough capacity for Sunrail and Brightline. SR can could do a Airport- Transfer station- Convention/Idrive/SeaWorld/Universal and Disney Springs and BL the intercity.

The sr417 plan has them sharing tracks (and a station) at grade. It much more cost effective, of course, going 417 vs 528 but the 528 route seems so much more effective.


----------



## Qapla

The intersection where the accident happened:



As can clearly be seen - there are lights and cross arms - the car turned onto the tracks instead of the road. This was NOT the fault of Brightline


----------



## Devil's Advocate

> Pompano Beach spokesperson Sandra King said a 71-year-old grandmother and a 1-year-old were in the car when the grandmother tried to make a right turn and somehow ended up on the tracks.


Maybe advanced age should come with probation licenses and annual retesting instead of a blind presumption of immortal driving prowess.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> This one may have been a case of someone who lost situational awareness and thought that the railroad tracks were Flagler Avenue...


First, it was daytime as seen in the video. How does one mistake two tracks and a zillion RR ties below them for a road on a nice day?

Secondly, it was Florida. That answers it all.

The woman probably thought that she was turning onto Anti-vaxxer Road in an attempt to avoid getting the vaccine on Flagler Avenue.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> First, it was daytime as seen in the video. How does one mistake two tracks and a zillion RR ties below them for a road on a nice day?
> 
> Secondly, it was Florida. That answers it all.
> 
> The woman probably thought that she was turning onto Anti-vaxxer Road in an attempt to avoid getting the vaccine on Flagler Avenue.


I think the 71 year old woman probably had other issues and should not have been driving. But of course looks like you guys already know more than me having already completed the investigation on what happened and formed an opinion


----------



## west point

As far as the accident goes. Does the woman have cataracts ? that is a vision impairment that really needs more attention by driver's licensees outfits, DOT physicals, and FAA medicals. It can be subtle and otherwise not detectable. Often they impair your side vision which is not checked by most vision checks..

The infrastructure bill includes funds for Sun Rail to go to Orlando airport. Finally that missing link will be closed.


----------



## daybeers

me_little_me said:


> Secondly, it was Florida. That answers it all.
> 
> The woman probably thought that she was turning onto Anti-vaxxer Road in an attempt to avoid getting the vaccine on Flagler Avenue.


Not helpful.


----------



## Cal

west point said:


> The infrastructure bill includes funds for Sun Rail to go to Orlando airport. Finally that missing link will be closed.


How is that gonna work?


----------



## Cal

daybeers said:


> Not helpful.


But it did get a chuckle out of me.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Cal said:


> How is that gonna work?


The airport phase of Sunrail:
acquiring the OUC branch from the current north-south line to where it now connects at the Brightline maintenance facility, upgrading and doubling the track , signaling, etc. The station was designed with this plan.
This could be accomplished much quicker than a 528 east-west route that wouldn’t be a one seat ride


----------



## jis

I wish they would complete the Deland extension too.

The OIA station would need a new low level platform with two platform tracks. There is room set aside for that in the original design, so that should not be a problem. Just need to build it. And of course they will need to acquire a bunch of new rolling stock too. Wish they'd consider FLIRT or similar DMUs instead of the cumbersome energy inefficient, slow, lumbering stuff that they run now.


----------



## Scott Orlando

jis said:


> I wish they would complete the Deland extension too.
> 
> The OIA station would need a new low level platform with two platform tracks. There is room set aside for that in the original design, so that should not be a problem. Just need to build it. And of course they will need to acquire a bunch of new rolling stock too. Wish they'd consider FLIRT or similar DMUs instead of the cumbersome energy inefficient, slow, lumbering stuff that they run now.



Allegedly, double track construction to DeLand starts in January. I don’t understand why they would go that far and not have a station in Orange City.
how cool would it be to have a Orange City/Blue Springs station?
The tracks are on the park border


----------



## Barb Stout

jis said:


> I think the 71 year old woman probably had other issues and should not have been driving. But of course looks like you guys already know more than me having already completed the investigation on what happened and formed an opinion


I imagine she and/or her family will plan on her not driving anymore.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> I wish they would complete the Deland extension too.
> 
> The OIA station would need a new low level platform with two platform tracks. There is room set aside for that in the original design, so that should not be a problem. Just need to build it. And of course they will need to acquire a bunch of new rolling stock too. Wish they'd consider FLIRT or similar DMUs instead of the cumbersome energy inefficient, slow, lumbering stuff that they run now.


I'm just not convinced that there's enough demand between OIA & downtown to support that service at a frequency that would make it viable. IMO it has run at least every 20 minutes to be attractive. I don't know what percentage of OIA arrivals are destined for downtown, but my gut feel is that it's fairly low; maybe I'm wrong.

Rail service to OIA is a good thing, but it has to go where people want to go.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I'm just not convinced that there's enough demand between OIA & downtown to support that service at a frequency that would make it viable. IMO it has run at least every 20 minutes to be attractive. I don't know what percentage of OIA arrivals are destined for downtown, but my gut feel is that it's fairly low; maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> Rail service to OIA is a good thing, but it has to go where people want to go.


Maybe it is so or maybe not. I have no opinion on that side of things. I am merely focused on the technical detail of it. 

Service will be possible at whatever frequency they want to fund it. It will never be supportable by a farebox in terms of percentage of cost recovered. The question would then be how much subsidy one wants to apply to it and how well it gets used. So targeting running every 20 mins is quite feasible track capacity wise, provided they want to fund it at that level.



Scott Orlando said:


> Allegedly, double track construction to DeLand starts in January. I don’t understand why they would go that far and not have a station in Orange City.
> how cool would it be to have a Orange City/Blue Springs station?
> The tracks are on the park border


Ah! Just found the blurb on the Phase II North project...





__





Northern Expansion Stations | SunRail Corporate







corporate.sunrail.com





I suppose at present they are just working on the original Phase II. Maybe we rail advocates should start a campaign for your idea, which I think is a good one. Of course the finances of SunRail are still a bit shaky. What is needed is a guaranteed source of operating subsidies after the State aid disappears.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> I think the 71 year old woman probably had other issues and should not have been driving. But of course looks like you guys already know more than me having already completed the investigation on what happened and formed an opinion


Not true. I'm also willing to consider other possibilities equally:

Brightline tricked her in to thinking the tracks were a road.
The grandkid was driving.
She saw a red track signal in the distance and thought it was the next intersection.
The microchip in the vaccine she took confused her


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 2: Dallas Blvd to State Road 520 - Oct/Nov 2021*


----------



## Brian_tampa

https://www.theledger.com/story/news/local/2021/11/12/brightline-project-gets-support-polk-commissioners/66384696001a

Polk County Commission supports Brightline's expansion to Tampa. Specifically a yet to be pursued grant per the Lakeland Ledger:

And as private company Florida Brightline
(Home Page | Brightline) LLC prepares to apply for a federal grant to help
fund the extension, the Polk County Commission has agreed to offer a supportive
hand.

Calling it a "vital" program that could reduce congestion and accidents on I-4, the
commission voted Friday to send a letter to U.S. Department of Transportation
Secretary Pete Buttigieg endorsing funding for Brightline through the Consolidated
Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements grant program.

The company plans to apply for a federal grant by Nov. 23 seeking $31.8 million in
funding to stretch the rail into Tampa. The letter from Polk will be included as part of
the grant application.

The company vows to leverage an additional $15 million in private funding to
implement "the long-awaited goal for the state of Florida," the letter says.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I’m honestly surprised that Polk County is so supportive of Brightline even going so far as to support Federal grants to get the line extended to Tampa.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> I’m honestly surprised that Polk County is so supportive of Brightline even going so far as to support Federal grants to get the line extended to Tampa.


Now only if they (Polk County) would wake up and take CSX's offer of use of trackage from Tampa to St. Pete for Commuter Service. The project (Tampa Commuter Rail) is mentioned in FDOIT's updated Rail Plan from 2018, but at that time no MPO owning it.


----------



## Brian_tampa

From my understanding of local politics, Polk has also been supportive of previous HSR efforts along I-4 as well. For them to get a stop in the county (most likely the Lakeland area) would be a big deal. Also, for me it would help as I live 25 minutes east of downtown Tampa for which the Tampa station would not help me as it adds too much time to any trip on Brightline to Orlando or S Florida. I can get to WPB from here in 3 hours or so - driving West to then go east and south is not good for many people in eastern Hillsborough County and the Lakeland areas. I once calculated about 750k people in my area (Eastern Hillsborough & Western Polk Counties) would benefit from a Lakeland station vs using Tampa.

As far as CSX selling trackage, that plan does not involve Polk County as far as I have heard. The lines north and west of Tampa are what CSX proposed selling a few years back. The A and S Lines east from Tampa are not for sale. I have read that CSX was considering selling the A Line west/south of Poinciana to Lakeland at one time for SunRail though.

Edit: the recent Intermodal terminal built south of Winter Haven has driven CSX's opposition to using the lines east of Tampa for commuter rail (and other additional passenger service). It requires the use of the A Line between Lakeland and Auburndale.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> The intersection where the accident happened:
> View attachment 25421
> 
> 
> As can clearly be seen - there are lights and cross arms - the car turned onto the tracks instead of the road. This was NOT the fault of Brightline



If the gate was down, how did she get past it on to the tracks?


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> If the gate was down, how did she get past it on to the tracks?


I would think she turned onto the tracks before the gates were down and was unable to get the car off. As we've seen so often on the Asheville railcam, once a car is off the crossing and onto the tracks, it's pretty difficult to get back up on the pavement without some outside help.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> Now only if they (Polk County) would wake up and take CSX's offer of use of trackage from Tampa to St. Pete for Commuter Service. The project (Tampa Commuter Rail) is mentioned in FDOIT's updated Rail Plan from 2018, but at that time no MPO owning it.


Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but why would Polk County have anything to do with a Tampa to St Pete route (which would be in Hillsborough and Pinellas Counties and go nowhere near Polk)?


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but why would Polk County have anything to do with a Tampa to St Pete route (which would be in Hillsborough and Pinellas Counties and go nowhere near Polk)?


You’re right. My mistake 

If anything Polk would perhaps be involved in a future Tampa - Fort Meyers service if it follows currently available ROWs


----------



## cirdan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe advanced age should come with probation licenses and annual retesting instead of a blind presumption of immortal driving prowess.



In terms of safety I am 100% with you.

Sadly there is another problem though. Take older people's cars away and they lose their independence and social contacts, which in many cases may be all they have.

What is really needed is decent public transit so they have an alternative. Or failing that at least socially priced taxi services.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> You’re right. My mistake
> 
> If anything Polk would perhaps be involved in a future Tampa - Fort Meyers service if it follows currently available ROWs


I remember a spokesman for the local FDOT district here telling me (this was 3 or 4 years ago) that they were going to maintain a transit "envelope" in the median of I75 in Hillsborough and Manatee Counties. This was in response to a question I had sent to them regarding future HOV/Lexus lanes that FDOT is planning for along I75 in 10-15+ years time. I don't recall if Sarasota County was included.


----------



## Qapla

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe advanced age should come with probation licenses and annual retesting instead of a blind presumption of immortal driving prowess.





cirdan said:


> In terms of safety I am 100% with you.



Making blanket statements or presumptions is a little much. Exactly what is "advanced age"? My brother is 74 (will turn 75 in a couple months) and drives a box truck for a living without any accidents or near misses.

I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cirdan said:


> In terms of safety I am 100% with you. Sadly there is another problem though. Take older people's cars away and they lose their independence and social contacts, which in many cases may be all they have. What is really needed is decent public transit so they have an alternative. Or failing that at least socially priced taxi services.


Where I live people who cannot drive can take a bus. Passengers unable to navigate a bus can take a shuttle. It's not idea but if that's not what they wanted in old age they should have supported some other solution during their productive years.



Qapla said:


> Making blanket statements or presumptions is a little much. Exactly what is "advanced age"? My brother is 74 (will turn 75 in a couple months) and drives a box truck for a living without any accidents or near misses.


If he's as safe as you say he'd still have a license under my proposal. It's not like an FAA commercial license that simply expires at age 65.



Qapla said:


> I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.


I agree and if it were up to me driving licenses would be harder to earn and keep for everyone.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine..



Hi! that's me!! And I do have the sense to stop a grade crossings when the lights are flashing and the arms are down.


----------



## UserNameRequired

Devil's Advocate said:


> …
> If he's as safe as you say he'd still have a license under my proposal. It's not like an FAA commercial license that simply expires at age 65.
> …


 Noting you are only restricted to not operating Part 121 at age 65 and after. Pilot certificates have no expiration date whether Private, Commercial or ATP! You no longer have Currency if you don’t have a current medical and a flight review. This is how they get you. Once you are a pilot, you are a pilot for life.


----------



## VentureForth

UserNameRequired said:


> Noting you are only restricted to not operating Part 121 at age 65 and after. Pilot certificates have no expiration date whether Private, Commercial or ATP! You no longer have Currency if you don’t have a current medical and a flight review. This is how they get you. Once you are a pilot, you are a pilot for life.


Very true. That's how they got Bob Hoover. Sad. I'm not even 50 and lost my medical because of the diabetes meds I'm taking. Working to get that reversed now.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Not necessarily. In Orlando, stations that are shared by Amtrak & SunRail have 2 tracks with end-to-end side platforms. At the Orlando & Kissimmee stations, the slightly higher SunRail platforms were built north of the low-level Amtrak platforms.
> 
> I've seen a similar arrangement on YouTube where stations are shared by commuter trains and light rail; I think it was in the Hague.


See also Cleveland Red/Green/Blue lines at several stations. Height difference is huge: Green/Blue are low-floor, Red is high-floor


----------



## cirdan

Qapla said:


> .
> 
> I know many others in the late 60's - early 80's that drive just fine as well as knowing some who are under 50 I would not ride with. I'm not sure age alone should be the defining factor in retesting drivers.



my dad is 83 and has afaik not been in any accident for 30 years and even then it was the other driver who was at fault


----------



## cirdan

Devil's Advocate said:


> . It's not idea but if that's not what they wanted in old age they should have supported some other solution during their productive years.



you can’t blame individuals for stupid things the government did.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 3: State Road 520 to Cocoa - Oct/Nov 2021*


----------



## Bob Dylan

VentureForth said:


> Very true. That's how they got Bob Hoover. Sad. I'm not even 50 and lost my medical because of the diabetes meds I'm taking. Working to get that reversed now.


I couldn't pass my Medical due to Diabetes @ age 50, sure miss flying the plane myself!


----------



## neroden

Getting back to this...



Anderson said:


> The issue here is parking: If you ran buses from Disney Springs to each of the parks, I think you can guarantee that you'd have a few thousand people willing to put up with a 20-minute bus transfer to save $20+ on parking. For Magic Kingdom, there's a "hotfix" in the form of the Monorail Resorts (and by extension, this _sort-of_ applies to Epcot).
> 
> The issue isn't style, it's expense. For various-and-sundry reasons, the cost of building these gadgetbahns has generally exceeded the rate of inflation by a substantial amount. I suspect that if you could do something for $20-25m/mile, Disney might go for it. Up at $75-100+ million per mile, it gets trickier to justify.



Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!



> Also, extending service to anywhere with free parking raises the issue of folks circumventing theme park parking prices...and Disney Springs _needs_ free parking to work.


Dammit parking! I see the issue: Disney's profit structure is based on parking prices, and so extending attractive mass transit to anywhere with free parking is a problem.

Maybe Disney shouldn't have asked for the Disney station to be at Disney Springs? They could have asked Brightline to put the station at ESPN Wide World of Sports, or even EPCOT with a slightly longer route.

Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.


----------



## neroden

Qapla said:


> *Brightline Orlando Line Construction Part 3: State Road 520 to Cocoa - Oct/Nov 2021*




Explicit confirmation that the SR-520 bridge is the critical path (last to be completed) on the Orlando Extension. Econlockhatchee River is the only other bridge on the new-build section of line where the piers still seem to need significant work, though he didn't get a good photo of it.

The bridges on the existing line still look likely to be completed even later than the SR-520 bridge.

My previous attempt, some months ago, to assess what was taking the longest:



> I have ordered this list from most likely to least likely to be on the critical path:
> 
> Eau Gallie River bridge in Melbourne -- construction trestle barely started (two spans), pilings for first new track not started (trestle must be finished first)
> 
> Turkey Creek bridge in Palm Bay -- temporary construction trestle not even started as of end of May (but this is a short bridge... so should be quicker than Eau Gallie)
> 
> Sebastian River bridge in Sebastian -- construction trestle present, about half of pilings for first new track in place
> 
> SR 520 bridge on extension to Orlando -- still working on pilings, but most are at least partway in
> 
> Crane Creek Bridge in Melbourne -- piers for one track are done
> 
> Loxahatchee River Bridge in Jupiter -- old piers will be reused



The SR-520 bridge is moving very slowly and may take a while. I still expect the whole Orlando Extension will be done significantly before the Eau Gallie River bridge; it'll be a race between the bridges to see which ones are done last. Hopefully we'll get some more updates soon, but I do wonder whether Brightline will start running trains before all the bridges on the existing line are finished; there might be strong incentives to do so.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.


Overnight parking is prohibited at the DS garages. They might give you one night grace to accommodate the Guests who got drunk and wisely chose not to drive back to their hotel, but I think your car will be gone the 2nd night.


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!


For every Walt, there's a Roy. For every dreamer, a realist. It's not a whole lot different now - except that the bean counters are going from making dreams financially feasible to making dreams reach their maximum ROI.



neroden said:


> Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.


Joel is right - what possible incentive would one have to park and ride to MCO from Disney Springs? They are not a 24/7 operation and would likely tow anything that seems abandoned for more than a day. You can already park there and get to the parks for free, but it takes a packed bus to a packed resort then another packed bus to the park. No single rides from DS to any park. So, not likely anyone would have any incentive for any reason to keep car there past, say 3 or 4 AM.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> Getting back to this...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!
> 
> 
> Dammit parking! I see the issue: Disney's profit structure is based on parking prices, and so extending attractive mass transit to anywhere with free parking is a problem.
> 
> Maybe Disney shouldn't have asked for the Disney station to be at Disney Springs? They could have asked Brightline to put the station at ESPN Wide World of Sports, or even EPCOT with a slightly longer route.
> 
> Disney Inc. chose Disney Springs, which actually perplexes me a little -- what business model do they have in their heads here? With a Disney Springs station, they're also at risk of having people use Disney Springs as a free park-and-ride for the Orlando airport! The parking issue is serious.


The parking may be expensive from an individual perspective but I doubt it is super lucrative for Disney . They have bigger fish to fry . If the parking income was lost it might be a dent in their budget but not a life threatening one . The increased number of visitors that bright line can bring probably more than offsets that


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Overnight parking is prohibited at the DS garages. They might give you one night grace to accommodate the Guests who got drunk and wisely chose not to drive back to their hotel, but I think your car will be gone the 2nd night.


Ah, thanks for explaining!


----------



## VentureForth

First time to ride Brightline today on a free round trip promo.

By the way, don't go to the platform until the train is called. Don't ask me how I know.

This country is frustrating. Either all access to everyone, ticketed or not or airline TSA Fort Knox. What's the harm in allowing ticketed folks to the platform early? I'm all about order, but hypercontrol is irritating.



These are the street legal golf carts to get you the last mile if you pay extra.



The tail end of Brightline Green



Interesting ramp to mind the gap.


----------



## VentureForth

Onboard...



Ain't gonna lie. It's going to hopefully attract many people. As for me, I found it too uncomfortable. So much so I decided to turn around and go back to WPB when I got to FLL.

Seats were hard. Recline didn't seem to work but I think I figured it out. Very warm cabin with no air gaspers. 

Some employees were super nice, others seemed to be ambivalent to their surroundings. 

I just can't see myself sitting there for 3 1/2 hours in Select class from Miami to MCO.

Which is a shame. I hope they succeed. I hope they grow. But for now, I think I'm really looking forward to my annual ride on the Piedmont with my grandkids.


----------



## Qapla

*Aerial Look at Siemens Sacramento Rail Rolling Stock Factory*


----------



## Qapla




----------



## chrsjrcj

Re VentureForth’s post about the seats- 

I can’t tell if you were in a trainset with the new seats or the old seats. When I rode last week I had a set with the old and a set with the new. I found the new seats to be far more comfortable than the old. 

I also had an issue getting the recline to work (with the new seats), and had to play with it for a few minutes before it finally worked.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!


For somebody who had no idea about cost control, he did pretty well for himself, no?


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Onboard...View attachment 25602
> View attachment 25603
> 
> 
> Ain't gonna lie. It's going to hopefully attract many people. As for me, I found it too uncomfortable. So much so I decided to turn around and go back to WPB when I got to FLL.
> 
> Seats were hard. Recline didn't seem to work but I think I figured it out. Very warm cabin with no air gaspers.
> 
> Some employees were super nice, others seemed to be ambivalent to their surroundings.
> 
> I just can't see myself sitting there for 3 1/2 hours in Select class from Miami to MCO.
> 
> Which is a shame. I hope they succeed. I hope they grow. But for now, I think I'm really looking forward to my annual ride on the Piedmont with my grandkids.



I'm sad to hear that. I've not managed to ride myself yet (it's a bit off my beaten track) but I was hoping this would be a flagship project that could show how rail is done properly and can inspire others (whether private or not).

I hope they listen to passengers and get the issues sorted sooner rather than later.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> For somebody who had no idea about cost control, he did pretty well for himself, no?


As was pointed out, Roy was his very effective partner.

Nowadays the company has a lot of Roys and no Walts, which is a bad balance.


----------



## VentureForth

chrsjrcj said:


> I can’t tell if you were in a trainset with the new seats or the old seats. When I rode last week I had a set with the old and a set with the new. I found the new seats to be far more comfortable than the old.
> 
> I also had an issue getting the recline to work (with the new seats), and had to play with it for a few minutes before it finally worked.



I rode Green and Pink, whatever category that put them in. I finally got the seat to recline on Pink but it was less useful than recline on a Spirit jet.



cirdan said:


> I'm sad to hear that. I've not managed to ride myself yet (it's a bit off my beaten track) but I was hoping this would be a flagship project that could show how rail is done properly and can inspire others (whether private or not).
> 
> I hope they listen to passengers and get the issues sorted sooner rather than later.


Me, too. No way I could handle a 3 hour ride from Miami to Orlando much less 5 hours to Tampa.

It's been a long time since I've been on the Shinkansen, but I don't think there was a recline feature, but the cloth seats seemed softer.

And it's not the leather, either. I recall being quite ok with most Bombardier commuter sets. Idk... just not what I hoped for. I hope you are right that they figured this out and have already addressed it.


----------



## Cal

VentureForth said:


> I rode Green and Pink, whatever category that put them in. I finally got the seat to recline on Pink but it was less useful than recline on a Spirit jet.
> 
> 
> Me, too. No way I could handle a 3 hour ride from Miami to Orlando much less 5 hours to Tampa.
> 
> It's been a long time since I've been on the Shinkansen, but I think there was no recline, but the cloth seats seemed softer.
> 
> And it's not the leather, either. I recall being quite ok with most Bombardier commuter sets. Idk... just not what I hoped for. I hope you are right that they figured this out and have already addressed it.


I just hope Amtrak's interiors are better, one of the (few?) good things about Amtrak coach is the large, comfortable seats.


----------



## VentureForth

Got a nice, canned response saying thank you for the email and that they would elevate it. Not expecting anything from anyone important but if I do, I'll share.


----------



## chrsjrcj

VentureForth said:


> I rode Green and Pink, whatever category that put them in. I finally got the seat to recline on Pink but it was less useful than recline on a Spirit jet.



Green was the set I was on that had new seats (and a malfunctioning recline). I found them to be more comfortable, my mother did not. Guess I’m in the minority on this one


----------



## cirdan

chrsjrcj said:


> Green was the set I was on that had new seats (and a malfunctioning recline). I found them to be more comfortable, my mother did not. Guess I’m in the minority on this one



It seems odd to me that they should be throwing out seats on sets that are still so new and low mileage. It would suggest there was something wrong with them.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> It seems odd to me that they should be throwing out seats on sets that are still so new and low mileage. It would suggest there was something wrong with them.


I don't know that they are being thrown out, but I would support that if they are not comfortable. Of course, I could be in the minority along with Chrsjrcj's mom.  

They've had nearly a year of usage prior to Covid, and the alleged "more comfortable" seats on Green could have been installed that way based on customer feedback. That being said, I don't have a clue in which order the trainsets were delivered.


----------



## Qapla

Not exactly an "update" but this is one of the bridges being rebuilt for Brightline

*Florida East Coast Railway Trains 105 and 206 Crossing the Crane Creek Bridge - November 24, 2021*


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Aventura and Boca Raton Station Construction - November 2021*


----------



## Anderson

neroden said:


> Getting back to this...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Walt had no sense of cost control. He was totally going for stuff which was not reasonably priced or financially justifiable. Style first!


Yeah...between my brother and I, I'm the one who figures out how to make the household budget work. There's a reason I'll sarcastically call him Walt when he goes off and does something "cool but not in the budget" (usually met with "Alright, Roy...").

To be fair, Disney World was likely always going to be a success and he _did _plan additional resorts early on to make the numbers work well.

[Now, whether the EPCOT concept could have ever been made to work is an open question. I think there _was _something there, but not quite as Walt saw it.]


----------



## Scott Orlando

I drove the 528 yesterday.

- Several miles of track is down
- The airport is really looking good
- The 520 bridge is still just pilings , far behind the others


----------



## Qapla

*Florida East Coast Railway Train 105 Across the Turkey Creek Bridge - December 3, 2021*


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: The 8th Bridge Edition - Brevard County Bridges Nov/Dec 2021*


----------



## Qapla

The latest video is


----------



## jiml

From Simply Railway:


----------



## neroden

Love Roaming Railfan's videos. I would still lay bets that Eau Gallie River bridge is the critical path on the entire project -- they've finally started putting in the pilings for the piers for the first new bridge. Started.

We'll see whether the SR520 bridge finishes before or after it; but the SR520 bridge has all its pilings in, and Eau Gallie doesn't even have all the pilings in for the first of two bridges, so I bet Eau Gallie takes a lot longer.

There are a few other candidates for critical path. Sebastian River has half its beams in on the first bridge, but it is a much, much longer bridge; Eau Gallie might catch up with it, so this is the second-most-likely candidate. Loxahatchee River Bridge is reusing the piers, but has hardly started construction, so it's hard to tell how fast it will go. Turkey Creek, being a short bridge which only needs two piers, is already closer to completion than Eau Gallie, so I'm pretty sure it isn't on the critical path. I'd bet on Eau Gallie River.

I fully expect the entire Cocoa to Orlando segment to be finished and running test trains before the West Palm Beach to Cocoa bridges are done; once the Eau Gallie, Turkey Creek, Crane Creek and Sebastian River bridges finish their current bridge under construction, they have to do it all over again for bridge #2.

I do think if Brightline finishes the first new bridge on each of these, cuts traffic over, and finishes the Cocoa to Orlando line, they will have a very strong incentive to try to open to Orlando and start collecting revenue even if not all the second-track bridges are open, which they probably won't be. I am curious to see what will happen.


----------



## chrsjrcj

In other news…









Delayed for years, Tri-Rail’s Miami station has a new problem: The trains won’t fit


Tri-Rail on Friday revealed another setback to launching the $70 million tax-funded extension to downtown Miami’s Brightline depot: the trains are too wide for the station, and may be too heavy as well.




news.yahoo.com





It’s not like Tri-Rail has gotten new trains since All Aboard Florida was announced. Not surprising to see a private company cut corners. I was highly skeptical of any intent for Brightline to run commuter service, and what better way to prevent that than building infrastructure that won’t support it.


----------



## jis

Seems more like plain old incompetence and/or carelessness to me since potentially it affects the Brightline side too, specially as far as the viaduct structure goes.

Here is the original Miami Herald article which has the same content as the Yahoo published version of it, except for a few corrections.

Delayed for years, Tri-Rail’s Miami station has a new problem: The trains won’t fit

Also it provides a link to the consultants report (a large PDF document) which I provide a reference to below:

South Florida Regional Transportation Authority Report of Survey, Load Rating & Bridge Inspection Tri-Rail MiamiCentral Station

Seems like quite a phenomenal cluster foxtrot which might cost more than a pretty penny to fix, even on the Brightline side of the station.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> From Simply Railway:



I saw it, and enjoyed it. Now I actually am curious to see how Brightline West will be, as I'd actually be able to ride it. Unfortunately I doubt Amtrak will ever be able rival that type of service.


----------



## west point

The report is too much to absorb at once. There definitely are some clusters. Bright line will have to worry about what their insurance carrier says once the carrier sees this report.
EDIT. Also the Miami building and inspection department.


----------



## neroden

Next question is who the subcontractor was who actually *built* the incorrectly-built platforms, because they're gonna get sued.


----------



## jis

South Florida train network, Brightline, updates Polk leaders on expansion plans into Tampa


While construction is underway to Orlando, Brightline is pursuing a $38 million in federal money to help fund its extension from there to Tampa.



www.theledger.com


----------



## McIntyre2K7

I really thought that Brightline would have just avoided the stop in Lakeland just to make the travel time from Tampa to Orlando faster. There's a patch of land near the corner of I-4 and Bella Vista St where they can create Transit Oriented Development (Dark Blue). The Yellow line is Brightline. Green would be the SunRail extension to Lakeland. It would stop at the Lakeland Amtrak Station before ending at the Brightline station. I wouldn't mind an express train that bypasses Lakeland so that people can get to the theme parks before they open in the morning.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> South Florida train network, Brightline, updates Polk leaders on expansion plans into Tampa
> 
> 
> While construction is underway to Orlando, Brightline is pursuing a $38 million in federal money to help fund its extension from there to Tampa.
> 
> 
> 
> www.theledger.com


If that reporting is accurate, looks like the opening of the Orlando extension has slipped again, from 1st qtr 2023 to "sometime in 2023".

I tried to find a meeting video, but was unsuccessful. Found it!


https://reflect-polk.cablecast.tv/vod/7290-TPO-Meeting-20211209-024215-v1/vod.mp4


Brightline presentation starts at 1:46:00

ETA: Very short presentation, nothing very significant. Just that no Polk Co. station is in the current plans, but they intend to look at it in the future. As for startup of Orlando service, she said "within 18 months", so 1st to 2nd qtr 2023 by my calculation. The reporter was not very accurate.


----------



## neroden

Watch the bridges (particularly 520, Eau Gallie, Sebastian, & Loxahatchee) if you want to know when it's going to open. I've found the best way to guess opening times on projects like these is to follow the critical-path items.


----------



## Ziv

Cool video by Simply Railway, thanks for the link! 
Quick takeaway, the seat pitch looks to be ok, not really good. When you recline the seat the front of the seat moves forward taking precious space and legroom with it... That is probably necessary but this is in the Select/First Class section, what is the Smart/Coach class like?
The table seating area looks really nice, kudos to Brightline on that. The ease of access to the power plug and USB looks good.
The soundproofing for the railcars looks to be well done, the sound at 70+ mph was a low hum and restful. Almost miss the sound of jointed rail but that is another story...
The bathroom looks outstanding. I was just on the Acela (for the first time!) and the Acela looks way dated by comparison. So surprise given the age of the Acela cars. I am glad I saw the part about flushing the toilet by waving a hand in front of the green light. I am the guy that would spend 5 minutes wondering where in the world the flush mechanism is.
Final thought is simply that Amtrak ought to look at Brightline and adopt as much of their look as possible. Those Siemens cars look outstanding so Amtrak choosing the same type of Venture rail car for their next purchase was a step in the right direction.
And the shot of the jet flying overhead as the transit was leaving Miami Station at 7:50 was a nice touch!



Cal said:


> I saw it, and enjoyed it. Now I actually am curious to see how Brightline West will be, as I'd actually be able to ride it. Unfortunately I doubt Amtrak will ever be able rival that type of service.


----------



## enviro5609

What is it with train stations in Miami and these kinds of mistakes? Just a festival of ineptitude all around. 

This is the second Miami station built with taxpayer funds in less than a decade that cannot physically accommodate the trains it was supposed to accommodate. Amtrak is still stuck in Hialeah because the platform is too short at Miami Intermodal. And now this? Amtrak, TriRail and Brightline all at three different stations without any real connections. Its like a regression to the times before union stations.


----------



## JWM

enviro5609 said:


> What is it with train stations in Miami and these kinds of mistakes? Just a festival of ineptitude all around.
> 
> This is the second Miami station built with taxpayer funds in less than a decade that cannot physically accommodate the trains it was supposed to accommodate. Amtrak is still stuck in Hialeah because the platform is too short at Miami Intermodal. And now this? Amtrak, TriRail and Brightline all at three different stations without any real connections. Its like a regression to the times before union stations.


Concur. The original Seaboard station was out of the way, the FEC one looked impressive on an old post card, but what you saw was Miami City Hall, but at least it was downtown. Philadelphia is a much better example of what can be done when tracks run through and stations are spaced properly. FEC, with few exceptions, had pretty "blah" wooden stations. Jacksonville Terminal, a "union" station, was really spectacular.


----------



## cirdan

Cal said:


> I saw it, and enjoyed it. Now I actually am curious to see how Brightline West will be, as I'd actually be able to ride it. Unfortunately I doubt Amtrak will ever be able rival that type of service.



Who knows?

If anybody else can run a better service than Amtrak, what's to stop Amtrak copying them or hiring their managers or consultants or whatever?

I think the issue here is that these are probably special cases in special situations that cannot easily be replicated. Otherwise somebody would have already done this long ago.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> Who knows?
> 
> If anybody else can run a better service than Amtrak, what's to stop Amtrak copying them or hiring their managers or consultants or whatever?
> 
> I think the issue here is that these are probably special cases in special situations that cannot easily be replicated. Otherwise somebody would have already done this long ago.


Your 3rd paragraph seems to be in conflict with your 2nd paragraph.

What is special or not easily replicated about purchasing comfortable, up-to-date, accessible coaches from the leading railcar supplier in America? It just takes money and lead time.


----------



## jis

Oddly enough many of Brightline's middle to senior management specially on the technical and operations side came from Amtrak's NEC! The ones I have spoken to remember their work on the NEC fondly, but almost universally have a low opinion of the upper management there, though there are a few specific individuals they talk about fondly. And this from allegedly the most favored part of Amtrak. Anyway, let's not digress. These are the people that helped design the interior of the Brightline equipment and also the overall passenger experience package. An illustration of how the same seeds can bloom different ways under different environments I suppose.


----------



## Scott Orlando

neroden said:


> Next question is who the subcontractor was who actually *built* the incorrectly-built platforms, because they're gonna get sued.




What is it with platforms and Miami? First MIC now Central….


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Northwood Signal and Track Cutover - December 5, 2021*


----------



## Cal

cirdan said:


> Who knows?
> 
> If anybody else can run a better service than Amtrak, what's to stop Amtrak copying them or hiring their managers or consultants or whatever?
> 
> I think the issue here is that these are probably special cases in special situations that cannot easily be replicated. Otherwise somebody would have already done this long ago.


It’s also a matter of funding. I mean I doubt they would pay for free rides to finish the last mile problem.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> It’s also a matter of funding. I mean I doubt they would pay for free rides to finish the last mile problem.


None of Birghtline's last mile rides are free rides. They are complementary rides, i.e. the cost is hidden away in the ticket price, which going forward is not going to be cheap by any means. They will charge as much as they can using yield management to the hilt. They are very good at it.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> Your 3rd paragraph seems to be in conflict with your 2nd paragraph.
> 
> What is special or not easily replicated about purchasing comfortable, up-to-date, accessible coaches from the leading railcar supplier in America? It just takes money and lead time.



This, and the fact that Brightline is part of a broader real estate deal and also just happens to be run in partnership with a highly supportive railroad. 

Those are conditions that cannot easily be replicated.


----------



## west point

I have a worry. Once Brightline is built out and real estate deals finalized what is there to prevent of FEC holdings selling the FEC RR to NS? Then what happens to passenger service?


----------



## Qapla




----------



## jis

west point said:


> I have a worry. Once Brightline is built out and real estate deals finalized what is there to prevent of FEC holdings selling the FEC RR to NS? Then what happens to passenger service?


FECR is not directly involved in any real estate deals. All the real estate operations are under FECI, and some of them are in Brightline, which is a subsidiary of FECI. 

There is nothing called FEC holdings. Fortress Goup sold off FECR to Ferromex some time back. Ferromex loves FECR as a money making going subsidiary. Even then, should they wish to sell it to someone else, Brightline is well covered by long term contracts for the rest of our lives and beyond.

The joint operations between FECR and Brightline are actually managed by Florida Dispatching Company an equally and jointly owned subsidiary of FECR and Brightline.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> Who knows?
> 
> If anybody else can run a better service than Amtrak, what's to stop Amtrak copying them or hiring their managers or consultants or whatever?
> 
> I think the issue here is that these are probably special cases in special situations that cannot easily be replicated. Otherwise somebody would have already done this long ago.


Amtrak's biggest obstacle to operating a world class system is... Amtrak.


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> Next question is who the subcontractor was who actually *built* the incorrectly-built platforms, because they're gonna get sued.


Depends on the engineering. You must follow the engineering. If you aren't "fit checking" along the way, you aren't realizing there is an error in the engineering. The poor souls pouring concrete don't have a clue. Quality control typically checks what is engineered vs what is built. Liaison engineering, on the other hand, corrects engineering along the way if something can't be built per the engineering or if it conflicts with the intended function - this part which seems to be the offending factor.

All that to simply say, the subcontractor could have built it correctly to bad engineering. If the engineering was correct, then the sub would be contractually obligated to rework their mistakes and maybe need to get better QC.


----------



## Qapla

I had a friend some years back that was a "model builder" for the construction industry. They used to commission scale models to be built according to the prints. By doing so, these types of errors were caught during the model build. However, when money started to get tight, model building was one of the first expenses they cut from a large project like this.

Only thing is, when an error of this magnitude is caught during a model build, it is much easier and cheaper to rectify than having to change it after the actual structure has been built. But ... when they are cutting costs, they only look at the times the model didn't find any errors and decide it is an expense they can cut - and then something like this happens - although they will never admit that a model build would have saved millions had they just spent the thousands for it.


----------



## Qapla

*Florida East Coast Railway Train 105 in Grant, FL December 16, 2021*

The second track here was recently added as part of the Brightline double tracking project. It is not in service yet but should be cutover into service soon.


----------



## west point

Qapla: What model drone and what is it operating range? You certainly cover a lot of aerial distance.


----------



## jis

Letter from Brightline CEO says car modifications are easiest solution to clearance issues at station - Trains


MIAMI — Tri-Rail and Brightline are each suggesting the other party is at fault after Tri-Rail management told the agency’s board last week that the commuter agency’s trains would not clear the platform at Brightline’s MiamiCentral station [see “Tri-Rail service to Brightline’s Miami station...




www.trains.com


----------



## Qapla

west point said:


> Qapla: What model drone and what is it operating range? You certainly cover a lot of aerial distance.



I am not the "Roaming Railfan" - just like his videos ... I do not know what drone he uses


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Orlando International Airport Passenger Rail Construction Update - December 2021*

(posted 2 hours before I posted it here)


----------



## VentureForth

Qapla said:


> *Brightline Orlando International Airport Passenger Rail Construction Update - December 2021*


So it looks like, at least for now, everything is outside TSA. I can see a time where they may add it somewhere between Brightline and the APM. Wish I had time last weekend when I was there to explore this!

For anyone interested in an aerial view, Bing has more recently updated maps than Google.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Letter from Brightline CEO says car modifications are easiest solution to clearance issues at station - Trains
> 
> 
> MIAMI — Tri-Rail and Brightline are each suggesting the other party is at fault after Tri-Rail management told the agency’s board last week that the commuter agency’s trains would not clear the platform at Brightline’s MiamiCentral station [see “Tri-Rail service to Brightline’s Miami station...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com


So these platforms were made exclusively for Tri-Rail at the Brightline Miami Central station, right? Interestingly, and really irrelevant, the Siemens cars Brightline use are 8 inches wider than the Bombardier Bi-Level coaches (10'6" vs 9'10"). Just weird. And, yeah, I don't see Tri-Rail taking the torch to reduce the width of their coaches. Is Michael Reininger that thick?


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> So it looks like, at least for now, everything is outside TSA. I can see a time where they may add it somewhere between Brightline and the APM. Wish I had time last weekend when I was there to explore this!
> 
> For anyone interested in an aerial view, Bing has more recently updated maps than Google.


Seems unlikely. The APM station at the main terminal is outside security. They potentially could reconfigure it to be inside security for Airsides 2 & 4, but travelers going to Airsides 1 & 3 would then need to go thru security twice, as would anyone wanting to shop or eat in the unsecured area before going to the gate. It would also make it difficult to access the in-terminal hotel from the Multimodal Facility.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Seems unlikely. The APM station at the main terminal is outside security. They potentially could reconfigure it to be inside security for Airsides 2 & 4, but travelers going to Airsides 1 & 3 would then need to go thru security twice.
> View attachment 26295


Trying to recall - I just don't remember. I thought security was already separated by gates, one for terminals 1/3 & and the other for terminals 2/4. When I came home last weekend, I came into A but my wife drove to B, and it wasn't anything to switch over to the B side before leaving the secure area. So, I think as it is now, you would already have to go through security again if you transferred from 1/3 to 2/4.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> So these platforms were made exclusively for Tri-Rail at the Brightline Miami Central station, right? Interestingly, and really irrelevant, the Siemens cars Brightline use are 8 inches wider than the Bombardier Bi-Level coaches (10'6" vs 9'10"). Just weird. And, yeah, I don't see Tri-Rail taking the torch to reduce the width of their coaches. Is Michael Reininger that thick?


Yeah the widths are indeed irrelevant since the platforms are at completely different heights.

If it was LIRR they'd probably just say <expletive> it, and then kncok the platform edge back six inches and then screw the necessary number of appropriately cut wood planks to fill a bit of the gap and then dare ADA to sue them etc. 



VentureForth said:


> Trying to recall - I just don't remember. I thought security was separated by A/B. But when I came home last weekend, I came into A but my wife drove to B, and it wasn't anything to switch over to the B side before leaving the secure area. So, I think as it is now, you would already have to go through security again if you transferred from B to A - or - 1/3 to 2/4.


You do not have to cross any security barriers to go from the A side to the B side of the terminal building, and also you do not have to cross any security barrier to go from A-B to C or Brightline. All of that is on the land side. 1-3 APM station is in one secure area and 2-4 APM station is in the other. So you have to cross two security barriers to go from the 1-3 APM station to the 2-4 APM station.

There is no plan to place the APM connection to terminal C within any secure area.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Trying to recall - I just don't remember. I thought security was already separated by gates, one for terminals 1/3 & and the other for terminals 2/4. When I came home last weekend, I came into A but my wife drove to B, and it wasn't anything to switch over to the B side before leaving the secure area. So, I think as it is now, you would already have to go through security again if you transferred from 1/3 to 2/4.


You would if you were arriving on a flight on one side and departing on one on the other side, but that's no different than transferring between terminals at most airports that don't have some sort of airside shuttle or walkway. It's still just once thru security at each airport.

Landside A & Landside B are in the same building, and you can just walk across on the top level. On the lower levels, they're separated by the baggage handling area, so you have to go upstairs to cross over.

But the secured areas are not segregated by A & B; each secured area has 1 airside on the A-side and 1 airside on the B-side. If I've got my directions right, A & B are on the north and south sides of the terminal, while the secured areas are divided by east and west.


----------



## VentureForth

Are there any functions/attractions that were a part of the Florida Fun Train that you could see being incorporated onto Brightline? I'm thinking like a 50's diner or the TikiBarCar, kids space, etc.

At first, I thought to myself that would be ridiculous, seeing FFT went under barely when they got started. But the short time I rode last month, there are a ton of kids that seem to ride. Anything more for kids to do...


----------



## Scott Orlando

VentureForth said:


> Are there any functions/attractions that were a part of the Florida Fun Train that you could see being incorporated onto Brightline? I'm thinking like a 50's diner or the TikiBarCar, kids space, etc.



—A cafe and bar would be ideal for the Orl-Mia segment. Utilize that car to its maximum with a kids area. Everyone wins. The fun car. 

—Ok y’all…I am confused about this platform issue. The Brightline platforms are high level. Obviously their trains fit perfectly. Tri Rail is low. This issue Tri Rail has stated is that their steps from their cars can’t fit into the platform. But the platforms are low  Am I missing something here? Is it the approach? Are the steps so low that it interferes? Are the platforms not low enough? Is this a width issue or a height issue? 

The article says “some spots” at one point, but later says the entire platform.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline implements new technology to help monitor railways*


----------



## cirdan

Scott Orlando said:


> —A cafe and bar would be ideal for the Orl-Mia segment. Utilize that car to its maximum with a kids area. Everyone wins. The fun car.
> 
> —Ok y’all…I am confused about this platform issue. The Brightline platforms are high level. Obviously their trains fit perfectly. Tri Rail is low. This issue Tri Rail has stated is that their steps from their cars can’t fit into the platform. But the platforms are low  Am I missing something here? Is it the approach? Are the steps so low that it interferes? Are the platforms not low enough? Is this a width issue or a height issue?
> 
> The article says “some spots” at one point, but later says the entire platform.



The article also says the viaduct is strong enough to handle bi-level cars.

That this should even be an issue sounds strange to me as surely that should be a given.

Maybe something was lost in translation here and the steps of the bi-level cars foul something on the ground while transitioning from the flat bit to the ramp on the viaduct because the vertical curvature of said transition is too extreme, and this can maybe be fixed by shaving a little bit of metal off those steps. Which sounds like a better solution than rebuilding the viaduct. Just an idea.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Are there any functions/attractions that were a part of the Florida Fun Train that you could see being incorporated onto Brightline? I'm thinking like a 50's diner or the TikiBarCar, kids space, etc.
> 
> At first, I thought to myself that would be ridiculous, seeing FFT went under barely when they got started. But the short time I rode last month, there are a ton of kids that seem to ride. Anything more for kids to do...


I don't think they'll do anything on an ongoing basis, but they are running the Polar Express, and I think they have run other special event trains in the past, so they might run other kid-targeted special trains from time to time.


----------



## Palmland

As newcomers to the area and having used OIA recently, I'm still trying to understand all the access routes and terminals. The new terminal C sounds like it will be big quite nice. Does anyone know which airlines will use it. I was interested in the OIA website description of the new intermodal terminal. I knew it would have space for Brightline and Sunrail, but this suggests there may be a third option.
***********
The Intermodal Terminal Facility (ITF) consists of approximately 1.3 million square feet of terminal space accommodating the South APM and up to three regional rail systems (SunRail commuter rail, BrightLine inter-city rail, and possibly a third system serving the International Drive/Convention Center area). It will also support ground transportation activity including taxis, shuttle buses and public bus operations.



Intermodal Terminal Facility Interior


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> As newcomers to the area and having used OIA recently, I'm still trying to understand all the access routes and terminals. The new terminal C sounds like it will be big quite nice. Does anyone know which airlines will use it. I was interested in the OIA website description of the new intermodal terminal. I knew it would have space for Brightline and Sunrail, but this suggests there may be a third option.
> ***********
> The Intermodal Terminal Facility (ITF) consists of approximately 1.3 million square feet of terminal space accommodating the South APM and up to three regional rail systems (SunRail commuter rail, BrightLine inter-city rail, and possibly a third system serving the International Drive/Convention Center area). It will also support ground transportation activity including taxis, shuttle buses and public bus operations.
> 
> 
> 
> Intermodal Terminal Facility Interior


It is designed to have space for a airport to downtown I-Drive LRT/Monorail/Maglev/Hyperloop/Gadgetbahn (you name it). There have been three vaporware attempts to get it going so far, but to no avail. The original plan called for an LRT, but these days, specially in a place like Orlando, that is too 20th century or 19th century or something in the minds of some, and Disney style Monorail is way too slow.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Palmland said:


> The new terminal C sounds like it will be big quite nice. Does anyone know which airlines will use it.



Jet Blue will be the first airline. 

This is planned to be massive and the goal is that all international flights will use this terminal in the future.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> It is designed to have space for a airport to downtown I-Drive LRT/Monorail/Maglev/Hyperloop/Gadgetbahn (you name it). There have been three vaporware attempts to get it going so far, but to no avail. The original plan called for an LRT, but these days, specially in a place like Orlando, that is too 20th century or 19th century or something in the minds of some, and Disney style Monorail is way too slow.



It seems to me that the classic application of any fixed transit system (regardless of the technology platform adopted) is in a densely built type area in which driving is not attractive and that is large enough to justify some internal transit system, and can then also have tentacles extending some way into adjoining lower density areas and/or connecting outlying park and ride facilities.

Orlando doesn't really fit into that template, and I think if a downtown type circulator ever gets built it will be a vanity project rather than one driven by hard demand.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Vital Tri-Rail snafus due a fast airing


Miami-Dade County’s commissioner representative on Tri-Rail’s governing board, Raquel Regalado, has insisted on a meeting being held before the holidays to discuss major issues Tri-Rail is facing in bringing its commuter service into downtown Miami. Miami’s




www.miamitodaynews.com





Another article on the Central Station platforms
More details in the issues….


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Frontenac Improvement Project & Cocoa Junction - December 2021*


----------



## neroden

Brightline is a classier operation than Florida deserves. (I expect a friendlier reception in Nevada and California.) I wonder if they will consider moving into a third location where they might be appreciated, perhaps in the Northeast or Northwest.


----------



## jis

In the Northeast everything seems to get bogged down in politics even when they are able to avoid the federal aspect of it. At least the last time I talked to anyone at Brightline I got the impression that they would not touch the Northeast with a ten foot barge pole. But of course things can change over time.


----------



## Tlcooper93

neroden said:


> Brightline is a classier operation than Florida deserves. (I expect a friendlier reception in Nevada and California.) I wonder if they will consider moving into a third location where they might be appreciated, perhaps in the Northeast or Northwest.


I get what you're saying.
Every time I turn around, there is some facebook comment on Brightline related news with someone (from FL) exclaiming some silly, unresearched, thoughtless anti-rail mantra that really doesn't even make sense in the first place: "_our tax dollars wasted on something I'll never use" _is the usual one, as if what they think they'll use is the final judgement of waste vs. usefulness (also ignoring that Brightline is only partially government funded).

The Northwest makes a lot of sense to me. The Cascade corridor seems like a great choice, as they aren't at capacity, and there is a need of additional service.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Tlcooper93 said:


> Every time I turn around, there is some facebook comment on Brightline related news with someone (from FL) exclaiming some silly, unresearched, thoughtless anti-rail mantra that really doesn't even make sense in the first place: "_our tax dollars wasted on something I'll never use" _is the usual one, as if what they think they'll use is the final judgement of waste vs. usefulness.



I love this argument. They probably will never use I-5 in Los Angeles but their tax dollars are going for that. For that matter, this person may not ever travel on I-10 in Northern Florida. And technically Bightlie isn't tax supported. There are hundreds of thousands of such exaples.


----------



## Scott Orlando

PaTrainFan said:


> I love this argument. They probably will never use I-5 in Los Angeles but their tax dollars are going for that. For that matter, this person may not ever travel on I-10 in Northern Florida. And technically Bightlie isn't tax supported. There are hundreds of thousands of such exaples.



There seems to be a never ending supply of keyboard warriors who regurgitate this nonsense. They would never criticize a highway or airport but automatically assume rail is fully government supported , instead of doing a little research into Brightline.

and as far as “Florida deserving this”?

Yes we do

it’s long overdue


----------



## jis

Scott Orlando said:


> There seems to be a never ending supply of keyboard warriors who regurgitate this nonsense. They would never criticize a highway or airport but automatically assume rail is fully government supported , instead of doing a little research into Brightline.


It is the low energy goto line to appear knowledgeable about stuff about which typically they know nothing.


> and as far as “Florida deserving this”?
> 
> Yes we do
> 
> it’s long overdue


Absolutely. 

Besides they really are a Florida company, so it is somewhat natural that they are trying to build something in home territory. And as it turns out, the state government has been surprisingly supportive of them even though some of the local in the hicktown part of the coast have been less so, carrying on their long standing tradition on such matters. Remember that Martin County delayed the construction of I-95 through there by almost ten years. So it is not just rail.


----------



## Brian_tampa

From this side of the peninsula, there has been nothing but support locally in Hillsborough (and the city of Tampa) and Polk (and the city of Lakeland) Counties. The only opposition to phase 3 to Tampa has been from Universal Resort/I-Drive hotels and the NIMBYs along 417 in the Hunters Creek development.

And I agree with jis, the State government as well as congressional representatives have been overwhelmingly supportive over the past 10 years (Republican and Democrat, except for the few in Indian River, Martin, and Brevard Counties). Even Gov. Scott helped make the ITF at MCO Airport happen.


----------



## jis

Tri-Rail Now Expected to Begin Service To MiamiCentral In Late 2022


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Central Brevard County Progress - December 2021*

Brightline construction progress in Central Brevard County, FL including Cocoa, Rockledge, Viera, Suntree, and Pineda


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## neroden

As I watch these I am noticing how many small local industries FEC still bothers to serve. I wish they could take over management of the lines owned by CSX and NS, who have been trying to eliminate online traffic for stupid reasons.


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## Brian_tampa

Since hundreds (over 700 in 2020) of pedestrians are killed each year in Florida, this local news report being among the latest, why does Brightline get such negative press? And why is Brightline "forced" to spend tens of millions of dollars to protect people from themselves, whereas road safety (or lack of) and fatalities are considered the cost of having mobility by auto? I think state and local governments should assist with the costs to implement safety improvements for Brightline - as hundreds of millions are spent each year nationwide on highway safety improvements for pedestrians. 









Land O’ Lakes woman, 71, struck and killed crossing U.S. 41, troopers say


The collision occurred at about 6:55 p.m. near where School Road splits off to the west from the six-lane, divided highway.




www.tampabay.com






*Land O’ Lakes woman, 71, struck and killed crossing U.S. 41, troopers say*
LAND O’ LAKES — A 71-year-old Land O’ Lakes woman was struck and killed by a car as she walked across U.S. 41 on Sunday evening, the Florida Highway Patrol said.
The collision occurred at about 6:55 p.m. near where School Road splits off to the west from the six-lane, divided highway. There is no traffic light at the intersection.
A 20-year-old Tampa man was driving south on U.S. 41 when the pedestrian crossed from west to east into his path, the Highway Patrol said. The Land O’ Lakes woman died at the scene.
The driver and a passenger, a 16-year-old Tampa boy, were not injured.
The Highway Patrol did not release the names of those involved in the collision.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I haven't ridden since 2018, so I am not sure how true this article is. To those who have ridden in premium class, is it true there have been downgrades and a limit on the number of coffee refills per trip? Seems pennywise but pound foolish to me, if true.

The Brightline Train Is Back, But Not Necessarily Better

From Forbes:

The downgrades start in the Premium lounge. It’s the type of nickel and dime cuts you expect from the airlines. You know, give them one olive in the salad instead of two, and eventually, just do away with the lettuce when they start complaining about the salad.

There is an automated pour machine instead of the previous assortment of attractive wine bottles resting in a tub of ice. The contraption limits you to two drinks, and while I didn’t partake, a couple who was attempting to do so found it a frustrating endeavor.

The previous buffet spread of lavash bread and quality crackers, cheese and salami slices have been replaced by small plastic containers of rice, noodle, pasta and potato salads. There are cookies and cakes, but they hardly shine. Onboard, the downgrades continue. Gone are the snack boxes with hummus, olives and pita slices, replaced with 7-Eleven type junk such as mini-cans of Pringles and chocolates. Okay, there are basic granola bars.


----------



## VentureForth

Brian_tampa said:


> I haven't ridden since 2018, so I am not sure how true this article is. To those who have ridden in premium class, is it true there have been downgrades and a limit on the number of coffee refills per trip? Seems pennywise but pound foolish to me, if true.


Heck, I wasn't impressed with Select class. Glad I didn't "splurge". When I rode last month, I peeked into the Premium area. Didn't seem like anything I'd want to spend extra money on. Acela First it is not.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I'm not sure about the coffee machine, but it looked like the beer machine required you to scan your Select ticket to use it. The coffee machine looked like the same one I've seen in the Amtrak sleeper lounge in Portland, but I didn't bother trying the Brightline one.


----------



## jiml

Another reviewer checks out Brightline:


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Another reviewer checks out Brightline:



I saw, makes me wanting to get on it even more.


----------



## Qapla

*Florida East Coast Railway Train 105 Crossing the Sebastian River Bridge - December 27, 2021*


----------



## neroden

Probably the critical path for the entire project, that bridge is


----------



## Scott Orlando

Brian_tampa said:


> I haven't ridden since 2018, so I am not sure how true this article is. To those who have ridden in premium class, is it true there have been downgrades and a limit on the number of coffee refills per trip? Seems pennywise but pound foolish to me, if true.
> 
> The Brightline Train Is Back, But Not Necessarily Better
> 
> From Forbes:
> 
> The downgrades start in the Premium lounge. It’s the type of nickel and dime cuts you expect from the airlines. You know, give them one olive in the salad instead of two, and eventually, just do away with the lettuce when they start complaining about the salad.
> 
> There is an automated pour machine instead of the previous assortment of attractive wine bottles resting in a tub of ice. The contraption limits you to two drinks, and while I didn’t partake, a couple who was attempting to do so found it a frustrating endeavor.
> 
> The previous buffet spread of lavash bread and quality crackers, cheese and salami slices have been replaced by small plastic containers of rice, noodle, pasta and potato salads. There are cookies and cakes, but they hardly shine. Onboard, the downgrades continue. Gone are the snack boxes with hummus, olives and pita slices, replaced with 7-Eleven type junk such as mini-cans of Pringles and chocolates. Okay, there are basic granola bars.



Forbes has their agenda. They will trumpet Covid (which is a serious concern) but when BL makes attempts to be cautious… they are giving “one less olive on the salad”. Basic granola bars. And if there was a buffet - they would say BL is risking public safety.

I have enjoyed all of my trips , regardless of class. They do a great job. This is nonsense.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Southern Brevard County Progress - December 2021*

Brightline construction progress in Southern Brevard County, FL including Melbourne, Palm Bay, Grant, and Micco


----------



## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> Heck, I wasn't impressed with Select class. Glad I didn't "splurge". When I rode last month, I peeked into the Premium area. Didn't seem like anything I'd want to spend extra money on. Acela First it is not.



What didn't impress you?


----------



## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> What didn't impress you?


Kinda talked about it earlier. Perhaps not so much about Smart (Note: Incorrectly called it Select earlier) per se, but Brightline overall. The cliff notes is that you still get the cattle call to the platform, the platforms and the trains don't have digital displays, so when two trains arrive simultaneously, you have to rely on employees to ensure you pick the right train (if you get disoriented by North/South - obviously only an issue in FLL). Seats were uncomfortable for a 30 minute ride, so I'd consider them unbearable for a 3-hour Miami-Orlando ride. Trolley service offers Takis. Com'on, man. Really? Vending machine food belongs in a vending machine. Why not offer some of their more "premium" offerings that they give to Premium passengers as sale items?


----------



## keelhauled

Scott Orlando said:


> Forbes has their agenda. They will trumpet Covid (which is a serious concern) but when BL makes attempts to be cautious… they are giving “one less olive on the salad”. Basic granola bars. And if there was a buffet - they would say BL is risking public safety.
> 
> I have enjoyed all of my trips , regardless of class. They do a great job. This is nonsense.


Forbes isn't really a publication you can assign a motive to, it's just a hodgepodge of random people publishing under a well known name. For better or worse they have no editorial board to lean in any direction; like it says in the byline, "Opinions expressed by Forbes contributors are their own."


----------



## me_little_me

VentureForth said:


> Kinda talked about it earlier. Perhaps not so much about Smart (Note: Incorrectly called it Select earlier) per se, but Brightline overall. The cliff notes is that you still get the cattle call to the platform, the platforms and the trains don't have digital displays, so when two trains arrive simultaneously, you have to rely on employees to ensure you pick the right train (if you get disoriented by North/South - obviously only an issue in FLL). Seats were uncomfortable for a 30 minute ride, so I'd consider them unbearable for a 3-hour Miami-Orlando ride. Trolley service offers Takis. Com'on, man. Really? Vending machine food belongs in a vending machine. Why not offer some of their more "premium" offerings that they give to Premium passengers as sale items?


Then again, no Lounge Dragons to make one miserable, no "we only put out six cans of soda at a time so people don't take more than one" in a lounge with 100 passengers, outstanding on-board attendants who want to help you find what you need and speeds that, while the seats might not be as nice as Amtrak's, the 3 hour trip would be 6-8 hours on Amtrak so the overall comfort is comparable as Brightline is not noted for sitting on sidings waiting for freights.


----------



## Scott Orlando

keelhauled said:


> Forbes isn't really a publication you can assign a motive to, it's just a hodgepodge of random people publishing under a well known name. For better or worse they have no editorial board to lean in any direction; like it says in the byline, "Opinions expressed by Forbes contributors are their own."


Point taken. The opinion piece was exactly that. We all have our opinions. I believe that BL provides good service and a good price


----------



## cirdan

Scott Orlando said:


> Forbes has their agenda. They will trumpet Covid (which is a serious concern) but when BL makes attempts to be cautious… they are giving “one less olive on the salad”. Basic granola bars. And if there was a buffet - they would say BL is risking public safety.
> 
> I have enjoyed all of my trips , regardless of class. They do a great job. This is nonsense.



This.

Furthermore, you can't really compare the pampering that goes on in business class on long-haul flights (both in lounges and on board) where most people have easily spent a 4-digit sum with a rail service like Brightline and expect the same quality of perks


----------



## MARC Rider

cirdan said:


> This.
> 
> Furthermore, you can't really compare the pampering that goes on in business class on long-haul flights (both in lounges and on board) where most people have easily spent a 4-digit sum with a rail service like Brightline and expect the same quality of perks


At this point Brighline's main competition (aside from driving your own car) is a commuter railroad, Tri-Rail. I've never ridden Tri-Rail, but I suspect that the perks on Brightline far exceed what Tri-Rail offers. We'll get a better idea of the value of a Brightline ride when they start service north of West Palm Beach, and, in that case, we should compare it with the offerings of other intercity corridor rail services, not premium class on a long-haul overseas flight.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> At this point Brighline's main competition (aside from driving your own car) is a commuter railroad, Tri-Rail. I've never ridden Tri-Rail, but I suspect that the perks on Brightline far exceed what Tri-Rail offers. We'll get a better idea of the value of a Brightline ride when they start service north of West Palm Beach, and, in that case, we should compare it with the offerings of other intercity corridor rail services, not premium class on a long-haul overseas flight.


Actually then the direct rail competition will be Amtrak Silver Service. 

Additionally it would be compared to other corridors of similar length of journey. 

It will win some and lose some. If they do an hourly service that would be a big win compared to most existing medium distance corridors in this country outside the NEC and a few California corridors.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I don’t even see Tri-Rail as a competitor since Tri-Rail has more stations in different locations too.

Even when I take public transportation to Palm Beach County (I try not to voluntarily head to Dade County) the Tri-Rail stations are closer to my origin and destination. Thought about Brightline, but Tri-Rail offers more trains (and starts earlier) and is much cheaper. Don’t have to mess around with a security checkpoint or trying to book/reserve a seat on an app either. 

Now if I attended a concert in Downtown Miami, Brightline would be the obvious choice. As early as Tri-Rail starts, I always thought their evening schedule was lacking. Maybe they’ll revisit that once service to downtown Miami starts (if it ever does).


----------



## Mailliw

Amtrak's service is too limited and unreliable to be a major competitor to Brightline.


----------



## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> I don’t even see Tri-Rail as a competitor since Tri-Rail has more stations in different locations too.
> 
> Even when I take public transportation to Palm Beach County (I try not to voluntarily head to Dade County) the Tri-Rail stations are closer to my origin and destination. Thought about Brightline, but Tri-Rail offers more trains (and starts earlier) and is much cheaper. Don’t have to mess around with a security checkpoint or trying to book/reserve a seat on an app either.
> 
> Now if I attended a concert in Downtown Miami, Brightline would be the obvious choice. As early as Tri-Rail starts, I always thought their evening schedule was lacking. Maybe they’ll revisit that once service to downtown Miami starts (if it ever does).


Sounds like you just made the case (in 2nd paragraph) for Tri-Rail being Brightline's competition.


----------



## chrsjrcj

joelkfla said:


> Sounds like you just made the case (in 2nd paragraph) for Tri-Rail being Brightline's competition.



As I rambled on I thought the same thing. Brightline is great for downtown to downtown travel in the 3 cities. Tri-Rail is better at going to places I like to go though


----------



## me_little_me

chrsjrcj said:


> As I rambled on I thought the same thing. Brightline is great for downtown to downtown travel in the 3 cities. Tri-Rail is better at going to places I like to go though


It's like comparing a bus to the LIRR. The bus has more places it stops and is cheaper because it provides less in the way of comfort and "service" but the RR is more expensive because it is faster and more comfortable for the longer distance. They don't compete. The complement each other.


----------



## Qapla

me_little_me said:


> They don't compete. The complement each other.



If you could only get more people to understand this - the same holds true for air and road travel as well as freight


----------



## cirdan

me_little_me said:


> It's like comparing a bus to the LIRR. The bus has more places it stops and is cheaper because it provides less in the way of comfort and "service" but the RR is more expensive because it is faster and more comfortable for the longer distance. They don't compete. The complement each other.



You could get philosophical about this. Ultimately every corporation in the world and even every individual is in some way in competition with every other individual as far as we are seeking the same limited resources, even if in a roundabout way.

At the same time every corporation and every individual is also in cooperation with every other because its the same world and we play by the same basic rules and pursue the same overall broad ideals.

So cooperation and competition and not absolutes but a sliding scale.


----------



## neroden

The updates continue to be interesting: the bridge construction is preventing the rebuild of the grade crossings nearest the bridges on the north and south sides, so the bridges remain the critical-path item for scheduling.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Cocoa Junction Update - January 5, 2022*


----------



## Brian_tampa

Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.

Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.


----------



## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.
> 
> Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.


I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?


----------



## Brian_tampa

joelkfla said:


> I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?


I suppose it is better to start early and familiarize crews with the track layout and speed restrictions even as it is modified over the next year. Makes sense as it gives them more time to learn versus a quick process at the end.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I do wonder if these qualification runs will be integrated into the PTC testing effort that will be required on this route? Since this will be 110mph MAS territory, which is not too common in the USA, hopefully they won't have too many PTC related issues to resolve before revenue service starts in 2023.


----------



## neroden

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.
> 
> Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.



That... doesn't seem entirely possible. Some of the bridges aren't there yet. I suppose these are training runs -- but I'm not sure they qualify formally as route familiarization / qualifying runs (for the regulatory requirements) until the route actually exists.

The press release is mixing up a bunch of different terms and seems quite imprecise, so I suspect this is the situation.


----------



## west point

60 MPH max speed? That sounds like not all grade crossing signals are yet programed for higher speeds. There may be needed programing and maybe some hardware to allow 110 MPH? 60 sounds like max freight speeds that FEC has programed for the grade crossings?

EDIT: Previous update videos of construction showed some crossings with older gates and mechanisms.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> 60 MPH max speed? That sounds like not all grade crossing signals are yet programed for higher speeds. There may be needed programing and maybe some hardware to allow 110 MPH? 60 sounds like max freight speeds that FEC has programed for the grade crossings?
> 
> EDIT: Previous update videos of construction showed some crossings with older gates and mechanisms.


Not all grade crossing have been double tracked yet either, in my neck of the woods. There are single track grade crossing with second track in place on one or both sides and there are double track crossing with the second track not present on one or both sides.

Port Malabar Rd is due to shut down next week for crossing upgrade, and then the next adjacent crossing will be handled. They are orchestrating it carefully so fire departments continue to have reasonable access across the tracks through the process.

So programming of crossing is not something that is currently being pursued in a big way. There are many other things that remain to be done in Brevard County. They do have the second track in operation further south, from WPB to Jupiter, I am told.


----------



## Qapla

Watching this short video reinforces the fact that there is no reason for anyone to try to "beat the train" - Brightline goes by so quickly there is not much of a delay and impatience is just not worth risking a life.


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> Watching this short video reinforces the fact that there is no reason for anyone to try to "beat the train" - Brightline goes by so quickly there is not much of a delay and impatience is just not worth risking a life.



Obviously, I would never encourage going around a gate. But from a typical yahoo's POV, there's no way of knowing whether it's gonna be a Brightline or an FECR freight.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Obviously, I would never encourage going around a gate. But from a typical yahoo's POV, there's no way of knowing whether it's gonna be a Brightline or an FECR freight.


Once Brightline starts running its full schedule, it would not be a mistake to assume it is Brightline during the day. FECR freights are few and far between and even fewer during daylight hours. Hopefully the "typical yahoos" will learn and get used to it.


joelkfla said:


> I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?


They are currently qualifying them to operate a train on that segment under current conditions of course. After qualification they will be able to legally operate a Brightline set under current operating rules between WPB and Cocoa.

When the upgraded tracks are ready they will have to upgrade their qualification for that situation, as will the freight train operators even for freight trains. The theory is that since they will already be intimately familiar with the geographical lay of the land, that process will take less time. I don't see any fallacy in that.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> The theory is that since they will already be intimately familiar with the geographical lay of the land, that process will take less time. I don't see any fallacy in that.


That seems reasonable. I mean, it's going to look a bit different with new bridges, and the signals will be relocated... but why not get started?

Thinking about it, I think there may be another aspect to this.

If they're training brand-new engineers -- people who aren't qualified as engineers anywhere yet -- I believe there's a rather long timeline of practice runs under supervision before they're allowed to operate trains on their own. Many months longer than the timeline for a qualified engineer to qualify on a particular territory. Those practice runs can be done on *any* territory.

Amtrak would of course simply do those practice runs on some other operating line, but Brightline doesn't have a lot of operating lines to choose from. Once they have a couple of engineers qualified to run on this line in its current state (which FEC certainly does), they can start using this line to train brand-new engineers, rather than doing all that training on Miami-WPB.

We know that there's enough of a shortage that all agencies (Amtrak, commuter railroads, etc.) are currently training brand-new engineers, so I would assume Brightline needs to do the same.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Work Train on the Orlando Line - January 10, 2022*
a look at a work train at work on Brightline’s new Orlando line between Cocoa and Orlando International Airport


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> I suppose it is better to start early and familiarize crews with the track layout and speed restrictions even as it is modified over the next year. Makes sense as it gives them more time to learn versus a quick process at the end.



Might also be used to get some "burn-in" on the new trains and iron out any teething troubles without inconveniencing passengers.


----------



## west point

Can we expect with only one R/T a day that will not interfere with the various bridges construction?


----------



## Qapla

The FEC trains have continued to run their daily schedule and that has not interfered with the bridge constructions - surely another train or two a day would not have any real impact on the work.


----------



## west point

Qapla said:


> The FEC trains have continued to run their daily schedule and that has not interfered with the bridge constructions - surely another train or two a day would not have any real impact on the work.


Have noticed with the overhead videos that the cranes are inactive whenever a train is crossing a bridge. Maybe a 10 - 15 minute break? Also the track work as well?


----------



## jis

FECR has like 4-5 freights a day, some of which are at night through this section. This will be one additional train. It won't cause much disruption to work.


----------



## west point

jis said:


> FECR has like 4-5 freights a day, some of which are at night through this section. This will be one additional train. It won;t cause much disruption to work.


Absolutely !


----------



## Scott Orlando

VIDEO: Brightline begins running trains on new rail system, paving way to connect Central, South Florida







www.wftv.com


----------



## Qapla

*First Brightline Train in Brevard County - January 20, 2022*


----------



## jis

Another new Brightline set is apparently slated to depart the Siemens plant in Sacramento headed to Florida today (1/25/22). Routing is via UP Overland Route. It will generally follow the same route that the previous set followed.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Another new Brightline set is apparently slated to depart the Siemens plant in Sacramento headed to Florida today (1/25/22). Routing is via UP Overland Route. It will generally follow the same route that the previous set followed.


Any reports on how much damage the existing sets received from the most recent trespasser events? Are they going to immediately put these new sets into the WPB-MIA service?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Any reports on how much damage the existing sets received from the most recent trespasser events? Are they going to immediately put these new sets into the WPB-MIA service?


I have not heard anything. But then I seldom hear anything after the grade crossing incidents. They have become too routine I suppose.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Is the new set going to WPB or MCO?


----------



## VentureForth

Still no tracks completed to MCO yet, so my assumption is MIA.


----------



## Scott Orlando

The maintenance facility is connected to the OUC branch


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Still no tracks completed to MCO yet, so my assumption is MIA.


Well actually the maintenance facility at WPB. There is nothing in MIA to do any maintenance. The two maintenance and storage facilities are at WPB (now) and OIA when it comes on line.



Scott Orlando said:


> Is the new set going to WPB or MCO?


Haven't heard anything about which facility it is going to. I guess unless the OIA facility has been staffed, there is no point in sending it there, other than just to store. Acceptance testing at present has to be on the FECR until more of the Cocoa OIA link is up and running.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Well actually the maintenance facility at WPB. There is nothing in MIA to do any maintenance. The two maintenance and storage facilities are at WPB (now) and OIA when it comes on line.
> 
> 
> Haven't heard anything about which facility it is going to. I guess unless the OIA facility has been staffed, there is no point in sending it there, other than just to store. Acceptance testing at present has to be on the FECR until more of the Cocoa OIA link is up and running.


A couple of Brightline execs were on local ORL TV this weekend, and one of them said the new Heavy Maintenance Facility would be receiving a trainset in a few weeks. Maybe this is the one.

The video is a 21-minute update on Brightline:








Central Florida Spotlight: Brightline







www.wftv.com





(Need to click on the speaker icon to turn on audio)


----------



## joelkfla

Press release about Boca station:





Press Release


Brightline ticket booking




www.gobrightline.com


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Test Train and Florida East Coast Railway in Southern Brevard County - January 24, 2022*


----------



## west point

Question about the hopper cars. Soe appear to have a much longer wheel base. The hoppers do appear to all be the same size. Any idea why the longer wheelbase? Only thought was that originally cars were cobbled from another longer base car?


----------



## Anderson

So, apparently they broke ground on the Boca Raton station on Monday. I'm staying at the Hyatt Place across the street [I think it'll technically be closer to the Boca station than the HR at MCO will be to the station there], so I'll try to stick my nose over there.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I have not heard anything. But then I seldom hear anything after the grade crossing incidents. They have become too routine I suppose.



I didn't hear anything but I believe the nose cones on the Siemens locomotives are some sort of plastic or composite and are designed to be detached and replaced easily and I would assume they have spares in stock so I don't expect that the train will spend much time out of use.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> A couple of Brightline execs were on local ORL TV this weekend, and one of them said the new Heavy Maintenance Facility would be receiving a trainset in a few weeks. Maybe this is the one.
> 
> The video is a 21-minute update on Brightline:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Central Florida Spotlight: Brightline
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wftv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Need to click on the speaker icon to turn on audio)


That OIA Maintenance Center as shown in the video does not really look like it is ready to receive a train though.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> That OIA Maintenance Center as shown in the video does not really look like it is ready to receive a train though.


I'm pretty sure that's file footage, from several months ago. It looks very familiar.


----------



## VentureForth

How many different colors are they going to have trainsets of in the end? Are they going to run out of "Bright" colors when they operate to Tampa?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> How many different colors are they going to have trainsets of in the end? Are they going to run out of "Bright" colors when they operate to Tampa?


At present they plan to have ten train sets, two of each of the five colors. What happens with the 11th train? Who knows? Stay tuned when it happens


----------



## Scott Orlando

At Disney, we have all the monorails with a unique color. All 13 look great but then you start to get to Teal, Coral, Peach, etc. idk….It fits the tourist narrative….

It will be interesting to see if they stick with this scheme or develop something entirely new. It was easy with five.


----------



## Chris I

Have they shared plans to lengthen the trains at some point? It seems so odd to see two engines and just 4 passenger cars.


----------



## jis




----------



## chrsjrcj

Chris I said:


> Have they shared plans to lengthen the trains at some point? It seems so odd to see two engines and just 4 passenger cars.



I’m curious about this as well. FDOT released drawings for the Fort Lauderdale Coastal Link/Broward Commuter Rail station and showed Brightline requiring a 500’ platform. When questioned why the proposed platform is shorter than the existing platform FDOT said this is what Brightline indicated they required.

Based on how the Tri-Rail platforms at MiamiCentral are going, it’s hard for me to take Brightline at their word. (And somewhat unrelated, the Director of Tri-Rail has announced his resignation over this issue).


----------



## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> I’m curious about this as well. FDOT released drawings for the Fort Lauderdale Coastal Link/Broward Commuter Rail station and showed Brightline requiring a 500’ platform. When questioned why the proposed platform is shorter than the existing platform FDOT said this is what Brightline indicated they required.
> 
> Based on how the Tri-Rail platforms at MiamiCentral are going, it’s hard for me to take Brightline at their word. (And somewhat unrelated, the Director of Tri-Rail has announced his resignation over this issue).


I thought I'd heard that the new trainsets were going to be longer, but obviously they're still just 4 coaches. However, Brightline does have an option to order an additional 30 coaches, according to an article about the current order.


----------



## Scott Orlando

chrsjrcj said:


> I’m curious about this as well. FDOT released drawings for the Fort Lauderdale Coastal Link/Broward Commuter Rail station and showed Brightline requiring a 500’ platform. When questioned why the proposed platform is shorter than the existing platform FDOT said this is what Brightline indicated they required.
> 
> Based on how the Tri-Rail platforms at MiamiCentral are going, it’s hard for me to take Brightline at their word. (And somewhat unrelated, the Director of Tri-Rail has announced his resignation over this issue).



Isn’t this just a commuter stop and not intended for full length Orl-Mia trains?

In addition- I was under the impression that Orl-Mia will be 6-8 cars with 2 Chargers


----------



## jis

The current PD&E documents are pretty preliminary. I would wait until the EIS happens. That tends to be much more concrete.

With FDOT involved I would actually worry more about what happened with Amtrak at Miami International Airport than the shoddy construction at Miami Central. Anyhow, I suspect that when it comes time to do the EIS, they will figure out exactly who needs how long platform.

Right now they don't know who will operate it and what rolling stock will be used for it. These are all YTBD, and some of that has impact on what sort of platforms will be needed.

In any case even with a 500' platform they would be able to platform 6 cars minus one end door.


----------



## west point

It seems that actual demand for "local" trains is a great unknown. The number of trips, how their first mile/ last mile is handled, access for both originations and destinations, number of persons with autos, etc. IMO it will take actual service to start. One item the west Palm <> MIA attracted more passenger than was anticipated.


----------



## jis

It is surmised that the ridership on the Coastal Link will be at least as high as and possibly much higher than the ridership on the current Tri-Rail service, because the coastal link stations are/will be in downtown areas with much larger walk in possibilities than the current service has, where stations are not as easily accessible from populated areas absent a car/shuttle/bus ride.

At present there is no immediate activity to extend it all the way to WPB and beyond, though there are future desires. The current more detailed planning and permitting activity is in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties only. As things progress I am sure service extension to Jupiter likely frist from Tri-Rail and later on the Coastal Link will happen.


----------



## jis

BTW, you can see the latest material posted about the Broward County Plans for the Coastal Link in the county:






BCR viewing room - BROWARD COMMUTER RAIL PD&E STUDY







bcrviewingroom2.graph-code.com


----------



## Scott Orlando

ok… this does show a Brightline station at FLL …which makes sense bc it would be a huge traffic generator. The only info I saw in the report was 1000’ platforms for BL and 500’ for TR. As we know, they have to be separated with BL being high and TR low…. Unless the Coastal equipment is different - which seems unlikely


----------



## NES28

I don't why everyone assumes that commuter rail in the coastal corridor will use equipment with doors requiring low level platforms. Commuter service would benefit from high level platforms, as in NEC. It would also save building separate platforms. Does Brightline not want to share their stations?


----------



## joelkfla

NES28 said:


> Does Brightline not want to share their stations?


Probably not, as Brightline platforms are controlled access via the station house. Brightline passengers have to scan their ticket and pass thru a security check to enter the boarding lounge, which provides the only access to the platform.


----------



## Qapla

*Brightline Construction: Indian River County & St Lucie County Progress - December 2021/January 2022*


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> It is surmised that the ridership on the Coastal Link will be at least as high as and possibly much higher than the ridership on the current Tri-Rail service, because the coastal link stations are/will be in downtown areas with much larger walk in possibilities than the current service has, where stations are not as easily accessible from populated areas absent a car/shuttle/bus ride.
> 
> At present there is no immediate activity to extend it all the way to WPB and beyond, though there are future desires. The current more detailed planning and permitting activity is in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties only. As things progress I am sure service extension to Jupiter likely frist from Tri-Rail and later on the Coastal Link will happen.



Do you think that eventually Tri-Rail might transfer to the coastal line entirely, or would there still be sufficient justification for the present route once a coastal service was operational. I mean is there anything the present line can do that the coastal line cannot, and if so, is it sufficient to justify the service's continuation?


----------



## VentureForth

NES28 said:


> I don't why everyone assumes that commuter rail in the coastal corridor will use equipment with doors requiring low level platforms. Commuter service would benefit from high level platforms, as in NEC. It would also save building separate platforms. Does Brightline not want to share their stations?



Sharing stations, OK. Sharing platforms, no. Even in Japan, most stations that have more than one company sharing the same station, use separate control access to the specific company's platforms. Even the one station I transferred at on my way to school that used to be a cross-platform transfer to a different company has since been isolated from the other company (JR vs Seibu).



cirdan said:


> Do you think that eventually Tri-Rail might transfer to the coastal line entirely, or would there still be sufficient justification for the present route once a coastal service was operational. I mean is there anything the present line can do that the coastal line cannot, and if so, is it sufficient to justify the service's continuation?



The nice thing about Tri-Rail being on the former CSX line is that there are very few grade crossings compared to the FEC line. Partly why you almost never hear about any trespasser incidents. I can see how more and more traffic being added to the FEC will annoy the locals with more and more crossing activations. That being said, the FEC seems to service a population more conducive to transit passengers, even though the two lines average barely a mile apart.

Also, if they abandon the current routing, I would assume they would lose convenient access to MIA airport.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Do you think that eventually Tri-Rail might transfer to the coastal line entirely, or would there still be sufficient justification for the present route once a coastal service was operational. I mean is there anything the present line can do that the coastal line cannot, and if so, is it sufficient to justify the service's continuation?


I don't think they will abandon their own owned and operated line. It is not even clear who will operate the Coastal Link service using what equipment yet. There are hopes, dreams, posturing etc., but no decisions yet.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Buzz is that Bright Blue 2 is in ATL and will A line to MCO probably Wednesday


----------



## Scott Orlando

New buzz …. Leaving Manchester (1 hour south of ATL) in 20 minutes from now (0115) for the A Line.


----------



## Scott Orlando

W99827 - Blue 2 coming down the S line this morning. Interesting change.


----------



## joelkfla

Scott Orlando said:


> W99827 - Blue 2 coming down the S line this morning. Interesting change.


At what location?

I'm not familiar with the lines, but the map on Wikipedia seems to indicate they'd need to be on the A line in FL.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> At what location?
> 
> I'm not familiar with the lines, but the map on Wikipedia seems to indicate they'd need to be on the A line in FL.


I suspect once they get to Jacksonville, they'll switch over to the FEC.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> I suspect once they get to Jacksonville, they'll switch over to the FEC.


If they're going to the new facility at OIA via the OUC connection, don't they need to be on CSX? Would they have to come thru downtown Orlando, or is there a connection to the east?


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> If they're going to the new facility at OIA via the OUC connection, don't they need to be on CSX?


Yeah - I know that's been discussed here, but I don't see the point in sending a train to be completely inactive at MCO just for training. They can train the crew at the current maintenance base and actually use the train in revenue service. Now, if they don't have enough room to store it, then, yeah, park it at the Orlando airport. I'm 100% ok with being totally wrong here. Just my perception of common sense, but I don't know what they need operationally.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Yeah - I know that's been discussed here, but I don't see the point in sending a train to be completely inactive at MCO just for training. They can train the crew at the current maintenance base and actually use the train in revenue service. Now, if they don't have enough room to store it, then, yeah, park it at the Orlando airport. I'm 100% ok with being totally wrong here. Just my perception of common sense, but I don't know what they need operationally.


But they don't need another train to maintain their WPB-MIA schedule, and the Brightline CEO (or similar mucky-muck) said on TV that a freshly arriving train would be placed in the new facility shortly (within weeks, specifically, and that was a couple of weeks ago.)


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> But they don't need another train to maintain their WPB-MIA schedule, and the Brightline CEO (or similar mucky-muck) said on TV that a freshly arriving train would be placed in the new facility shortly (within weeks, specifically, and that was a couple of weeks ago.)


I believe that muckety-muck was the CEO of Brightline Holdings, Michael Reininger who at one time was the Chief Development Officer at AAF (All Aboard Florida). I have met him and talked to him briefly a couple of times at a couple of FECRS (FEC Railway Society) Meetings over the years.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Now at the siding in Davenport. Holding short of CFRC

idk why they would have wanted to go S Line, then back up the A line. Seems like a much longer route.


----------



## jis

Scott Orlando said:


> Now at the siding in Davenport. Holding short of CFRC
> 
> idk why they would have wanted to go S Line, then back up the A line. Seems like a much longer route.


CSX staying on its own tracks as much as they can?


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Yeah - I know that's been discussed here, but I don't see the point in sending a train to be completely inactive at MCO just for training. They can train the crew at the current maintenance base and actually use the train in revenue service. Now, if they don't have enough room to store it, then, yeah, park it at the Orlando airport. I'm 100% ok with being totally wrong here. Just my perception of common sense, but I don't know what they need operationally.



Maybe they want to recruit crews at different locations along the route so people don't have to travel too far to start work. So it would make sense to be recruiting crews in the Orlando area and also training them there.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Credit: Jeff Myers FB CFRC group


----------



## joelkfla

@RoamingRailfan clearly has an excellent relationship with Brightline's PR folks. I expect he'll give us a look at the trainset inside the maintenance facility. Might even be on the scene to film its arrival. (It's probably too close to OIA to shoot from a drone.)


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> @RoamingRailfan clearly has an excellent relationship with Brightline's PR folks. I expect he'll give us a look at the trainset inside the maintenance facility. Might even be on the scene to film its arrival. (It's probably too close to OIA to shoot from a drone.)


Yeah. It is on OIA grounds almost adjacent to the up and coming Terminal C, and between approaches to various runways.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Yeah. It is on OIA grounds almost adjacent to the up and coming Terminal C, and between approaches to various runways.


He might be able to (with Brightline's permission) fly the drone *indoors* in the maintenance shop, since that's not under FAA jurisdiction.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Enroute to MCO now


----------



## joelkfla

Told ya' so! 


Looks like he did get permission to fly.


----------



## Cal

Does is bother anyone else that the specific colors (in this case blue) don't extend to the engines?


----------



## VentureForth

First off, glad I'm wrong about the trainset going to MCO. I can't wait to see the line finished! Nice to see that brand new track being used by a passenger trainset.



Cal said:


> Does is bother anyone else that the specific colors (in this case blue) don't extend to the engines?


Not really. I think the color gradient fades to the end of the passenger coach in a nice way to have a "colorless" engine that can then be reassigned if necessary without upsetting the overall look.


----------



## joelkfla

Cal said:


> Does is bother anyone else that the specific colors (in this case blue) don't extend to the engines?


Bright Grey?


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Told ya' so!
> 
> 
> Looks like he did get permission to fly.



You can get exceptions to the "restricted flight zone" rules around airports by filing requests in a particular system. I assume he said "I'm gonna be this far away from the runaways and I'm only gonna be 100 feet in the air" and they said yes.


----------



## Scott Orlando

First Brightline train arrives in Orlando


The trains are built in California and brought to Florida.




www.mynews13.com


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> You can get exceptions to the "restricted flight zone" rules around airports by filing requests in a particular system. I assume he said "I'm gonna be this far away from the runaways and I'm only gonna be 100 feet in the air" and they said yes.



Wow, I wouldn't have thought it was that easy. Airport authorities tend to have a reputation for having zero trust or patience, understandably so when you consider the potential risk that a drone could cause, even if by incompetence rather than malice.


----------



## joelkfla

I'm not sure now whether the drone shots were taken by @RoamingRailfan or by Brightline. I saw footage similar to the photos on a local newscast attributed to Brightline. One or the other filmed it and shared it with the other.


----------



## Mailliw

joelkfla said:


> I thought I'd heard that the new trainsets were going to be longer, but obviously they're still just 4 coaches. However, Brightline does have an option to order an additional 30 coaches, according to an article about the current order.


I believe that once Orlando is open the trainsets will be extended to 7 coaches.


----------



## UserNameRequired

neroden said:


> You can get exceptions to the "restricted flight zone" rules around airports by filing requests in a particular system. I assume he said "I'm gonna be this far away from the runaways and I'm only gonna be 100 feet in the air" and they said yes.


FAA UAS Data on a Map, Federal Aviation Administration, for KMCO area. Note really sure where Brightline is though:




__





ArcGIS Web Application







arcg.is


----------



## jis

UserNameRequired said:


> FAA UAS Data on a Map, Federal Aviation Administration, for KMCO area. Note really sure where Brightline is though:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Web Application
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arcg.is


The Brightline facility appears to be in a 50' quadrilateral. Even though it is right under the approach to 36R it is far enough displaced from the threshold to be in a 50' ceiling zone.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> Wow, I wouldn't have thought it was that easy. Airport authorities tend to have a reputation for having zero trust or patience, understandably so when you consider the potential risk that a drone could cause, even if by incompetence rather than malice.


I just spent some time browsing articles about it; according to what I've read, they aren't complete jackasses about it, and once you are out of the "0' ceiling" zones they will give limited permissions. Roaming Railfan has a long record of responsible behavior, and in this case has a large company backing him up in any request he might have made.


----------



## joelkfla

I'm surprised nobody has posted this link yet:


----------



## VentureForth

Stepped out of work for lunch and caught Brightline crossing NASA then Babcock near US-1 in Melbourne today.

Unfortunately too far away to pull out camera and get to it.

Locals are mixed about BL flying through here. Many upset it exists, many upset there isn't a stop, many don't give a poo.



joelkfla said:


> I'm surprised nobody has posted this link yet:


I mean, to be fair it was only posted a couple hours prior.


----------



## jis

Way back when the Brevard County Council had its first meeting regarding AAF (the then name of Brightline), the real estate agent who helped me with the purchase of my residence in West Melbourne, was an active voice in the Council Meeting. She knew about my interest and knowledge about railroads and hence asked me for my expert opinion about what the real estate folks in the County should be worried about and what position they should take, in my opinion. I filled her up with ideas about what position the real estate industry in the county ought to take and what they should push for, including a station in the county. This was over eight years back. Most of the significant conversation took place over a very long lunch at The Grill on the Indian River by the Pineda Causeway.

I have no idea what she and her real estate industry folks made of it, but it was satisfying to see that other than individuals with a loud voice here and there (Debbie Mayfield I am pointing at you), generally the Council has been supportive of the project and has worked with AAF and Brightline towards getting a station in the County including running a County funded project to propose a prioritized list of possible station sites, from which Brightline has selected one.

This is in contrast with the shenanigans that every county between Brevard and Palm Beach have pulled over the years only to be finally beaten into submission in the last couple of years.


----------



## neroden

I found Roaming Railfan's second-from-most-recent update quite interesting because of the drawbridge construction. They're, as usual, building new piers, but this time underneath the existing spans. It looks like it's going to mostly follow the usual procedure of "remove old west track bridge spans -- place new west track bridge spans -- remove old east track bridge spans -- place new east track bridge spans" but I really wonder what they're going to do with the actual drawbridge component. Probably a big replacement with a couple of days' track closure?


----------



## jis

Brightline has completed the construction of the 3.5 mile approach track to the Orlando International Airport station (with lots of photos). Click the link below...





__





Brightline completes first major construction zone leading to OIA






www.msn.com


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Brightline has completed the construction of the 3.5 mile approach track to the Orlando International Airport station (with lots of photos). Click the link below...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline completes first major construction zone leading to OIA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


Thanks for the post. 5 days without an update on this thread and I was beginning to get Brightline withdrawal.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Thanks for this! (I was having BL withdrawals too). 

I haven’t had the chance to drive across town lately. I am wondering if the station is finally connected to the VMF.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I took this picture of fenced in tracks as our bus was taking us from the airport to WDW. It wasn’t too long after we left and I wondered if they might be the Brightline tracks.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> I took this picture of fenced in tracks as our bus was taking us from the airport to WDW. It wasn’t too long after we left and I wondered if they might be the Brightline tracks.
> View attachment 27195


They are Brightline tracks.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Brightline completes complex tracks at Orlando airport


The most intense portion of Brightline's extension has been 3½ miles through the heart of Orlando International Airport.




www.orlandosentinel.com






Answering my own question….


----------



## VentureForth

Well, this is in the news again. 

3 Brightline train crashes in 4 days in Palm Beach County (wptv.com)


----------



## joelkfla

Aerial tour of Brightline Vehicle Maintenance Facility at OIA:


----------



## jruff001

VentureForth said:


> Well, this is in the news again.
> 
> 3 Brightline train crashes in 4 days in Palm Beach County (wptv.com)


This is going to be a HUGE problem as the schedule increases. I can't believe they are going to have so many grade crossings.


----------



## CCC1007

jruff001 said:


> This is going to be a HUGE problem as the schedule increases. I can't believe they are going to have so many grade crossings.


It's simply a matter of cost of removing the existing crossings (No new crossings opened on the mainline for the Brightline service) vs the costs of the disruptions that collisions cause.


----------



## neroden

Perhaps more aggressive anti-car measures -- spikes, bollards rising out of the ground, etc. -- are the way to go.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> Perhaps more aggressive anti-car measures -- spikes, bollards rising out of the ground, etc. -- are the way to go.


This was on the existing trackage. I think all of the crossings on the new double trackage north of WPB are getting 4-quadrant gates, which will make it impossible for cars to go around unless they crash through a gate.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> This was on the existing trackage. I think all of the crossings on the new double trackage north of WPB are getting 4-quadrant gates, which will make it impossible for cars to go around unless they crash through a gate.



In my view this is at best a temporary fix as they don't remove the problem of people stopping on the tracks, which tends to happen especially if there is an intersection adjacent to the rail crossing.


----------



## Joe from PA

Way too many grade crossings= more chance to run into an idiot. When we rode this train years ago, they were "gun shy" over 4 recent accidents, We crawled though every grade crossing, turning the 45 minute trip into 2 hours.


----------



## VentureForth

Certainly removing grade crossing improves safety. But it also hurts public relations where citizens (and first responders) get mighty testy about adding a couple miles to their journey. The problem is almost all psychological - people are engrained with the belief that as soon as the red lights start flashing, they will be stuck for 10 minutes. I commend CSX for grade separation and almost no grade crossings along their route in this area. FEC was a 2nd tier rail carrier. They didn't have the need to reduce crossings with the few trains they had. 

I've actually seen in Japan where they were able to raise the tracks above the grade to remove crossings. I've also seen them completely move a track underground - both of these tasks without ever stopping service. Talk about expensive. But they deemed it worthwhile. In the meantime, Darwin will have his pick of the litter.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Shouldn't the people who live along the Brightline tracks realize by now that taking a chance may cost your life. Are all these people really that stupid?


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> In my view this is at best a temporary fix as they don't remove the problem of people stopping on the tracks, which tends to happen especially if there is an intersection adjacent to the rail crossing.


I believe they were also talking about intrusion detectors, but I don't know whether they were installed or if so how extensively.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Certainly removing grade crossing improves safety. But it also hurts public relations where citizens (and first responders) get mighty testy about adding a couple miles to their journey. The problem is almost all psychological - people are engrained with the belief that as soon as the red lights start flashing, they will be stuck for 10 minutes. I commend CSX for grade separation and almost no grade crossings along their route in this area. FEC was a 2nd tier rail carrier. They didn't have the need to reduce crossings with the few trains they had.
> 
> I've actually seen in Japan where they were able to raise the tracks above the grade to remove crossings. I've also seen them completely move a track underground - both of these tasks without ever stopping service. Talk about expensive. But they deemed it worthwhile. In the meantime, Darwin will have his pick of the litter.



I believe that in Japan there is actually a fund for this type of thing and local municipalities can somehow apply for money for this type of project.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I believe that in Japan there is actually a fund for this type of thing and local municipalities can somehow apply for money for this type of project.


There are a few relevant grant programs under the FRA and FHA:






Grade Crossing Safety and Trespass Prevention Grants | FRA


The following funding programs facilitate efforts to improve safety at grade crossings. Click on the title of each section to learn more about each program, including applicant and project eligibility, how to apply for funding, and application deadlines.




railroads.dot.gov





Here is a bit on on program administered by the FHA for grade crossing upgrades...






Grade Crossings - Federal-aid Program Administration - Federal Highway Administration







www.fhwa.dot.gov


----------



## jis

> There is also an opportunity for Brightline to capture an entirely new ridership base, if the railroad is willing to add a specific new line of service.











Brightline: Progress, Potential, a Whole New Market? - Railway Age


Brightline, Florida’s private-sector passenger railroad, is progressing in its effort to extend service north to Orlando International Airport (OIA) and beyond. There is also an opportunity for Brightline to capture an entirely new ridership base, if the railroad is willing to add a specific new...




www.railwayage.com


----------



## Trogdor

joelkfla said:


> I believe they were also talking about intrusion detectors, but I don't know whether they were installed or if so how extensively.



Intrusion detection systems might work in cases where vehicles get stuck on the tracks. But it seems most collisions are the result of people trying to race the train and the race ending in a tie.


----------



## joelkfla

Trogdor said:


> Intrusion detection systems might work in cases where vehicles get stuck on the tracks. But it seems most collisions are the result of people trying to race the train and the race ending in a tie.





joelkfla said:


> I think all of the crossings on the new double trackage north of WPB are getting 4-quadrant gates, which will make it impossible for cars to go around unless they crash through a gate.


If a vehicle is detected on the tracks when the gate on the exit side of the crossing closes, is there enough time for the PTC to stop the train before reaching the crossing? In the onboard camera video of this accident, it took 30 seconds from the time the car entered the tracks until full stop. There's some engineer reaction time in there, and I don't know whether he went into full emergency braking.

This is the camera footage, which was posted earlier:


----------



## cirdan

The only consequence of there not being enough time to stop would be gates closing earlier, which would obviously be very unpopular.

Maybe a campaign could aim at connecting these two topics and telling motorists, if you feel frustrated about excessively long waiting times, don't blame the train but blame the idiots who race the train.


----------



## chrsjrcj

It doesn’t look like there were quad gates at that crossing. While it certainly doesn’t absolve the driver of any guilt and it won’t completely eliminate all collisions, I do think the local MPOs should look at funding improvements at crossings without quad gates and also fencing.


----------



## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> It doesn’t look like there were quad gates at that crossing. While it certainly doesn’t absolve the driver of any guilt and it won’t completely eliminate all collisions, I do think the local MPOs should look at funding improvements at crossings without quad gates and also fencing.


I don't recall hearing that Brightline plans to upgrade crossings on the existing trackage to quad gates. The max speed on that segment is only 79 mph, while they've announced a max speed of 110 mph on at least parts of the trackage now being upgraded between WPB & Cocoa.

It certainly would be good PR for Brightline to upgrade them at their expense, or at least offer a 50-50 split with the locals.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Quad gates and fences is the answer to this problem. And perhaps photo equipment at the most notorious crossings.


----------



## cirdan

Scott Orlando said:


> Quad gates and fences is the answer to this problem. And perhaps photo equipment at the most notorious crossings.



I don't think photo equipment discourages bad driving, but it maybe makes it easier to produce evidence afterwards.


----------



## Ryan

It will if they come with significant fines. Similar to school bus cameras, I'd be supportive of impoundment of the vehicle for a period of time for repeat offenders.


----------



## west point

Red light cameras are a start. Sooner or later a repeat offender will be in a crash. That person should have the book thrown at them. Maybe some passengers can sue the causer for endangering them?


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> Shouldn't the people who live along the Brightline tracks realize by now that taking a chance may cost your life. Are all these people really that stupid?


I assume that's a rhetorical question. Yes, they are.


----------



## Willbridge

I looked into the subject of grade crossing accidents and one-car accidents in Alberta years ago as it was an issue on the punctual Edmonton<>Calgary _Dayliners _and not on the CN and CP transcons. It looked as though some of the accidents were disguised suicides and that local authorities were reluctant to study them in detail out of "concern for the families." It also appeared that a lot of publicity about the specific rail line being dangerous (as compared to generic crossing safety campaigns) encouraged one-vehicle, one person crossing accidents.

Florida has plenty of academics. It would be worthwhile for a professor and some students to delve deeper into the accidents to see what patterns turn up.


----------



## VentureForth

I think it's already been determined that many of the deaths related to Brightline were suicide related. But the cars running around crossing gates is just Darwin deselecting from the species.


----------



## Palmland

An article this morning in the Orlando Sentinel talks about a new Icelandic airline, PLAY, brining discount fares to Europe. According to their CEO one of the reason they chose Orlando is Brightline! -

“ Jónsson said his three-year-old company evaluated Florida’s major airports, including at Miami, Fort Lauderdale and Tampa. A reason the airline chose Orlando was the coming passenger service by Brightline Trains between Orlando and South Florida, starting in about a year. “I’m not going to say it’s a deciding factor but it’s a major factor,”


----------



## VentureForth

Palmland said:


> An article this morning in the Orlando Sentinel talks about a new Icelandic airline, PLAY, brining discount fares to Europe. According to their CEO one of the reason they chose Orlando is Brightline! -
> 
> “ Jónsson said his three-year-old company evaluated Florida’s major airports, including at Miami, Fort Lauderdale and Tampa. A reason the airline chose Orlando was the coming passenger service by Brightline Trains between Orlando and South Florida, starting in about a year. “I’m not going to say it’s a deciding factor but it’s a major factor,”


The European travel agency TUI is starting 787 flights into our little Melbourne airport starting in March. Even though, as a full service travel agency, TUI offers connections and ground transportation, they are talking about bringing 100,000 tourists through Melbourne each year. It would be nice to have a Brightline stop in Melbourne AND Cocoa to facilitate. I would really like to see Brightline start talking about a "local" service.


----------



## jis

> Brightline’s Miami to Orlando train service is one step closer to completion, while service to Tampa is also moving forward.
> 
> The company announced last week that it has completed construction of one of four zones needed to start service between Miami and Orlando.
> 
> Brightline also told investors last week that it has now completed negotiations with the Florida Department of Transportation for right-of-way access to build an extension to Tampa, and expects to execute a final agreement with the agency in early 2022.











Brightline Completes Construction Work On First Orlando Zone, Finalizes Tampa Negotiations


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTES: Post about Melbourne International Airport have been moved to their own little thread under Non-Rail Transportation Forum.






Melbourne International Airport (MLB)


Melbourne airport. As I remember it there was 1 somewhat E=W runway with a small terminal building in the SE corner. If it has not changed how in the world could it handle a 787 full of passengers?




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## joelkfla

Here's a trip report video with a look at the Miami Central Premium Lounge and the Premium coach:


----------



## VentureForth

Been thinking about the Disney Springs expansion and how they plan on doing that...

I think that the maximum train length being considered for station design is going to be 10 cars + 2 locos? or 8+2? That's about 850-1000' train set. What's the minimum turning radius for that trainset? 

I know that the platform doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but the curvature of Buena Vista Dr is opposite of the way the train would be coming in/out of I-4/FL-417. I'd assume you'd want the train to stop as close to the Disney Springs area as possible, so that would be the North side of BV Dr. Currently, the two parking garages are 700-750' long. You could extend past that and co-habitate a station there. Maybe they would build over the current Disney bus terminal. That'd probably make more sense, and and elevated station could go 1,000 feet, but it would cross over the streets on either side of the bus area. It would make for a nice "intermodal" station.

But back to the minimum turn radius. Are they going to try to do a through train or a terminating stub and reverse direction? I've never liked the stub and reverse idea, because people generally prefer to sit viewing forward. But these trainsets are such that half the seats face forward and the other half face backwards, so it's already set up to be a bit more conducive than a trainset where all the seats face the same direction. I would think though, that people would easily get confused if they are going one direction then suddenly a different direction (not detraining at DS).

Has the decision to come up 417 been solidified? I seem to have read a report that it had been...


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Been thinking about the Disney Springs expansion and how they plan on doing that...
> 
> I think that the maximum train length being considered for station design is going to be 10 cars + 2 locos? or 8+2? That's about 850-1000' train set. What's the minimum turning radius for that trainset?
> 
> I know that the platform doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but the curvature of Buena Vista Dr is opposite of the way the train would be coming in/out of I-4/FL-417. I'd assume you'd want the train to stop as close to the Disney Springs area as possible, so that would be the North side of BV Dr. Currently, the two parking garages are 700-750' long. You could extend past that and co-habitate a station there. Maybe they would build over the current Disney bus terminal. That'd probably make more sense, and and elevated station could go 1,000 feet, but it would cross over the streets on either side of the bus area. It would make for a nice "intermodal" station.
> 
> But back to the minimum turn radius. Are they going to try to do a through train or a terminating stub and reverse direction? I've never liked the stub and reverse idea, because people generally prefer to sit viewing forward. But these trainsets are such that half the seats face forward and the other half face backwards, so it's already set up to be a bit more conducive than a trainset where all the seats face the same direction. I would think though, that people would easily get confused if they are going one direction then suddenly a different direction (not detraining at DS).
> 
> Has the decision to come up 417 been solidified? I seem to have read a report that it had been...


I haven't seen anything about the route selection since last summer, except for the formation of a lobbying organization by the I-Drive interests. The last I heard, no decision had been made.

Both proposed routes appeared to have a stub-end station.

I don't think the actual location has been revealed, but I seem to recall an early statement by Disney or Brightline about elevated tracks over a ground-level headhouse. There was a lot of discussion on a Disney fan board about where the station might be located, but nobody claimed to have any inside knowledge (which is often claimed on Disney fan boards.)

ETA: There is enough room for a station perpendicular to BVD over the parking lots west of DS. You might also fit one in parallel to BVD on the south side. I can't see how one would fit parallel on the north side, unless it were elevated way over the tops of the garages.


----------



## VentureForth

Well, that's about what I've heard, too. I was hoping someone would have some inside knowledge!


----------



## Scott Orlando

As a CM I can tell you (a) there is nothing being said definitively (b) If knew and I told you I would have to kill you . There are rumors that one possibility for a through station could be the area between Team Disney and the Grapefruit garage, south of BV Drive. Another is a stub station in the parking area south of Cirque du Soleil (a stub station). Of course much is up in the air with no route choosen


----------



## joelkfla

Scott Orlando said:


> As a CM I can tell you (a) there is nothing being said definitively (b) If knew and I told you I would have to kill you . There are rumors that one possibility for a through station could be the area between Team Disney and the Grapefruit garage, south of BV Drive. Another is a stub station in the parking area south of Cirque du Soleil (a stub station). Of course much is up in the air with no route choosen


Those sound like bus driver rumors.  
(I was a Disney bus driver once upon a time.)


----------



## VentureForth

Com'on, man! Legacy CM OG here. lol

Next to Team Disney seems to be a good spot for a stub station, but I think an intermodal facility where the current bus farm is would be best for a through station. 

I remember when elevated garages were poopoo'd by WDW. Suddenly, they're everywhere!


----------



## Scott Orlando

joelkfla said:


> Those sound like bus driver rumors.
> (I was a Disney bus driver once upon a time.)



Lol. They are kinda bus driver rumors. I work for corporate and its still not clear if this is corporate or WDPR. Probably parks and resorts, the only presence corporate has is the Team Disney building 
(Outside the Celebration offices ). Disney Springs mostly a mix of WDPR and private leases. As you know Disney is a rumor mill that 99% are bs. Heck, at one time there was a rumor that the part of I4 that widens with a forest in the middle (directly behind my office) was going to be a station location (in the I4 median) with bus and or monorail station. I love great Disney rumors. 

The monorail people I know say expansion is extremely unlikely. Ever.


----------



## VentureForth

The nice thing about re-doing the bus hub and co-locating it with the train station is that it would provide a simple transfer to resorts. Currently, though, there is no transportation to the parks from DS (for obvious reasons - keeping people from free parking and headed to the parks). That may have to change with Brightline sharing a sort of "Union Station".

Hey - I kinda like that. Old fashioned, but "Disney Union Station" has an interesting ring to it.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> The nice thing about re-doing the bus hub and co-locating it with the train station is that it would provide a simple transfer to resorts. Currently, though, there is no transportation to the parks from DS (for obvious reasons - keeping people from free parking and headed to the parks). That may have to change with Brightline sharing a sort of "Union Station".
> 
> Hey - I kinda like that. Old fashioned, but "Disney Union Station" has an interesting ring to it.


If you have arriving train passengers using Disney Transport, you have to provide some way for them to get their bags to the resort. Officially, luggage is not allowed on Disney Transport (though that wasn't the internal policy when I was driving.)

One solution to that would be to provide dedicated motor coach transfer from within the station's secured perimeter to Disney resorts. That would solve the luggage transfer problem, with bags going in the underfloor compartments. Then they could also provide direct transportation to the parks, restricted to train passengers.

But now that Disney has abandoned Magical Express, they may be content letting everyone just find their own way.


----------



## UserNameRequired

Open KDWS back up and have real intermodal!


----------



## jis

UserNameRequired said:


> Open KDWS back up and have real intermodal!


Could you perhaps be a little less pithy please? Some of us have no clue what your talking about.


----------



## UserNameRequired

jis said:


> Could you perhaps be a little less pithy please? Some of us have no clue what your talking about.


Sorry, green font means joking, KDWS is the closed Lake Buena Vista STOLport at Walt Disney World. All of the WDW talk and transportation options there reminded me I missed my chance by decades of being able to land/depart from there, maybe on my way to get on the Brightline! Just dreaming…


----------



## joelkfla

Why cars are turning onto the tracks:


----------



## Coltflyer

joelkfla said:


> Why cars are turning onto the tracks:



Most major level crossings in the UK (grade crossings in the US) where there is a identified difficult issue for vehicle traffic to cross are lit up at night. What would make this crossing much safer is a pair of down floodlights fully illuminating the crossing plus good street lighting on the approach to and departure on the street highway. I’m sure this would completely cut the vehicle/rail interface incidents at this crossing.


----------



## joelkfla

Is it legal and feasible to put gates across the tracks, which would normally be in closed position and raise when the roadway gates lower? In the event of a malfunction, a locomotive would breeze thru a closed breakaway gate without damage.

I've seen videos of manually operated crossings in other countries where the gate is swung from the tracks to the roadway, but I don't think I've ever seen an automatic gate blocking tracks.


----------



## jis

Frankly they could start with just painting a bright Yellow line along the edge of the road at crossings so that people know very visibly and obviously where the road ends. I am surprised that this has not been a requirement already, but apparently it is not.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Frankly they could start with just painting a bright Yellow line along the edge of the road at crossings so that people know very visibly and obviously where the road ends. I am surprised that this has not been a requirement already, but apparently it is not.


I think yellow is reserved for the left side of a roadway, so it would have to be white.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I think yellow is reserved for the left side of a roadway, so it would have to be white.


Anything nice, bright and reflective. White would be fine too as would Bright Pink if all existing colors in the standard is inappropriate for some reason.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> Is it legal and feasible to put gates across the tracks, which would normally be in closed position and raise when the roadway gates lower? In the event of a malfunction, a locomotive would breeze thru a closed breakaway gate without damage.
> 
> I've seen videos of manually operated crossings in other countries where the gate is swung from the tracks to the roadway, but I don't think I've ever seen an automatic gate blocking tracks.



Such swing gates were quite common in Britain in the past but had virtually been eliminated by about the 1980s, other than a few examples on heritage lines.

They were typically hand operated though, which required crossing keepers (unless there was a station nearby whose staff could operate them).

I don't know why they were not automated


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Anything nice, bright and reflective. White would be fine too as would Bright Pink if all existing colors in the standard is inappropriate for some reason.





Looks like there is a white line, but it's poorly maintained and does not extend over the tracks. Perhaps the crossing was replaced, and the locality didn't bother to repaint them. 

I don't know what's up with those black markings: whether they're intended to highlight that there are tracks there, or they're part of the crossing material structure. Anyhow, I think they would make the white line (if it were there) harder to follow.


----------



## jis

I get the impression that the design of visible markings on crossing roads and setting standards for them has been a relatively neglected area, and localities and railroads just do whatever they please or not.

Unfortunately, more often than not this is what a crossing looks like in Florida... no markings of anything on the road.


----------



## west point

Do not know there but the markings here are metal borders of the concrete panels.
why not put the white lane reflective markers on and outside the lane markings? The DOT here put a gaggle of yellow reflectors on the end of the inside lane of I-85. You cannot miss them.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Do not know there but the markings here are metal borders of the concrete panels.
> why not put the white lane reflective markers on and outside the lane markings? The DOT here put a gaggle of yellow reflectors on the end of the inside lane of I-85. You cannot miss them.


The key is for whatever marking is used, to be very clearly visible at night. Macadam to metal transition is not all that visible at night in their natural state, except perhaps when the Macadam is very fresh which may last for a few weeks after it is laid.


----------



## west point

The reflectors need to be the raised kind, They are glued to the road surface and rise about 1 inch above the pavement.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

cirdan said:


> Such swing gates were quite common in Britain in the past but had virtually been eliminated by about the 1980s, other than a few examples on heritage lines.
> 
> They were typically hand operated though, which required crossing keepers (unless there was a station nearby whose staff could operate them).
> 
> I don't know why they were not automated


My hometown of South Benfleet had swing gates that were electrically powered and operated from a nearby signal box (interlocking tower in US-ese). They were eliminated in the 1960's when the busy road (only connection to Canvey Island) was rebuilt with an underpass.
But as noted these types of gates are no longer in use AFAIK.


----------



## George Harris

joelkfla said:


> Looks like there is a white line, but it's poorly maintained and does not extend over the tracks. Perhaps the crossing was replaced, and the locality didn't bother to repaint them.
> 
> I don't know what's up with those black markings: whether they're intended to highlight that there are tracks there, or they're part of the crossing material structure. Anyhow, I think they would make the white line (if it were there) harder to follow.


The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.


west point said:


> The reflectors need to be the raised kind, They are glued to the road surface and rise about 1 inch above the pavement.


This would work in Florida, and is used in quite a few places to mark lanes or edges or other factors, but would not work in any area were snow plows are used. I think the reason for that would be obvious.


----------



## joelkfla

George Harris said:


> The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.


That occurred to me, and it's what I meant by part of the structure. I just didn't think the panels used at crossings were that small. Perhaps the thick lines are panel edges, and the thin ones built-in expansion joints?


----------



## George Harris

joelkfla said:


> That occurred to me, and it's what I meant by part of the structure. I just didn't think the panels used at crossings were that small. Perhaps the thick lines are panel edges, and the thin ones built-in expansion joints?


I have no clue. Thick ones do look about right for length of panel segments. For something this short you do not need expansion joints, so I do not know what the thin lines are. These are not usual in the ones I have seen.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

George Harris said:


> The "black markings" are not markings at all, but the edges and ends of the crossing panel segments. Based on the nice exact end of the paint at the edge of the crossing panels, it is fairly certain that the paint job predates the crossing panel installation. Chances are the next time the lane lines are painted they will paint across the crossing, or possibly not have any lane lines at all, but large wide stop lines across the lanes as is commonly done at intersections.
> 
> This would work in Florida, and is used in quite a few places to mark lanes or edges or other factors, but would not work in any area were snow plows are used. I think the reason for that would be obvious.


Up north we have recessed reflectors on at least our highways.


----------



## west point

AmtrakBlue said:


> Up north we have recessed reflectors on at least our highways.


Recessed reflectors and lights are used on airport runways and taxiways so sweepers can clear area faster.


----------



## VentureForth

could they possibly be magnetic sensors?


----------



## Brian_tampa

In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday Wednesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.

Brightline sets sights on future expansion to Disney Springs, Tampa

Edit: here is the link to the TPO meeting video. The Brightline presentation begins around minute 47


----------



## wildchicken13

Brian_tampa said:


> In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.
> 
> Brightline sets sights on future expansion to Disney Springs, Tampa


Wow, that's the fastest speed in the U.S. outside of the Northeast Corridor!


----------



## Cal

Brian_tampa said:


> Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers,


I don't think that's how it works.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Cal said:


> I don't think that's how it works.


I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Perhaps they're considering hopping on the dual mode power bandwagon and electrifying the OIA to Tampa section.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!


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## wildchicken13

Brian_tampa said:


> I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!


Easy, just remove the limiter.


----------



## west point

150 will require changing the traction motor to axel ratio to obtain that speed. Can chargers even accelerate quick enough to any speed as higher ratios require more power to traction motors More important charger probably have been tested only to the 125 FRA speed which is 137 MPH. 150 will require testing to 165 for both locos and passenger cars.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I have been able to confirm from one of my contacts at Brightline that they will indeed use their Chargers to reach 150mph. Not sure how they can modify the Chargers for this higher speed, maybe there is an unknown feature of the Charger design they have been aware of and are now going to try to implement? This is surprising news for sure!


Of course they will need to get those certified for both higher speed which is probably achievable changing the gear ratio and Tier III buff strength architecture. Thos etrains are incredibly over powered, so changing the gear ratio may be feasible.

Then there is the issue of making them Tier III to be certified for operation above 125mph. The cars already appear to be architected with CEM and it may be possible that they are already Tier III capable. Then there is the issue of making the power heads Tier III if they are not.

If they manage to do 150mph then AFAIK these will become the fastest regularly operating diesel trains.


----------



## George Harris

Brian_tampa said:


> I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.


People, people, this is not how it works. Even if the equipment cannot run faster than 125mph, you should NOT build an alignment that limits you to that speed. Alignments you are stuck with. Equipment can be replaced or modified. If it were me doing it, I would be looking toward an alignment that could handle 175 to 200 mph, even if the current equipment and train control could not go past 110 or even 79 mph. Technology changes. Alignment revisions vary from very expensive to impossible for all practical purposes. For the case here, my initial statement concerning alignment development is, "A straight line has no speed limit." They are probably saying 150 mph for the sake of saying to these people, we can and likely will in the future run faster than we do now. 150 mph is probably as high a number they dare use that does not flip the locals circuit breakers.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Of course they will need to get those certified for both higher speed which is probably achievable changing the gear ratio and Tier III buff strength architecture. Thos etrains are incredibly over powered, so changing the gear ratio may be feasible.
> 
> Then there is the issue of making them Tier III to be certified for operation above 125mph. The cars already appear to be architected with CEM and it may be possible that they are already Tier III capable. Then there is the issue of making the power heads Tier III if they are not.
> 
> If they manage to do 150mph then AFAIK these will become the fastest regularly operating diesel trains.


Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.


----------



## Brian_tampa

George Harris said:


> People, people, this is not how it works. Even if the equipment cannot run faster than 125mph, you should NOT build an alignment that limits you to that speed. Alignments you are stuck with. Equipment can be replaced or modified. If it were me doing it, I would be looking toward an alignment that could handle 175 to 200 mph, even if the current equipment and train control could not go past 110 or even 79 mph. Technology changes. Alignment revisions vary from very expensive to impossible for all practical purposes. For the case here, my initial statement concerning alignment development is, "A straight line has no speed limit." They are probably saying 150 mph for the sake of saying to these people, we can and likely will in the future run faster than we do now. 150 mph is probably as high a number they dare use that does not flip the locals circuit breakers.


The government Florida HSR project from 2010 would have had a maximum speed of 168mph along I-4. That included some significant work on modifying the I-4 highway lanes along certain segments around curves as well as utilizing electric powered locomotives. I agree that maximizing the alignment for the highest speed is great. In the case of Brightline, being privately funded also means it has to justify every expenditure, so I get it that they might not want to increase the construction cost significantly at this time to save a few minutes run time. They have to work within the confines of what FDOT will allow in their ROW. That being said, I have not seen the design plans for phase 3 to Tampa along I-4 to verify what they are going to build along I-4.


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## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.


The lady at the meeting actually said they were "looking at opportunities" to run at 150mph. That's a very nebulous statement. It may be something they aspire to but is just in the investigational phase.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Doesn't 125-160 operation require Tier II certification? Tier III is for 160-220mph I think. But Brightline must be aware of a somewhat cost effective path to get the trainsets certified for 150mph operation. That is why they must know the potential maximum speed capabilities of the trainsets and what is required to get them to run at the higher speed. What would prevent them from running at 150 MAS between Orlando and Cocoa? That section is actually straighter for a longer distance than any section along I-4.


Tire II is history. It did not have CEM done properly, hence the tanks that we got for Acela Is. Nobody in their right mind will build another Tier II anything. Roughly speaking the old 800 Klb/1 Mlb buff strength now applies to the safety cage within the car and not the entire carbody. The carbody is allowed to collapse in places designed for such, to absorb energy while preserving the safety cage undeformed, and softening the blow inside considerably by reducing the overall deceleration experienced for things inside the safety cage.

The new standard for that is Tier III. It is basically an adaptation of European HSR construction standard. The Acela 21s are Tier III, not Tier II.

The Venture cars are already structurally capable of being upgraded to Tier III relatively easily, if need be, apparently.


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## west point

one thought. Maybe bright line will work out some kind of adaptation of the proposed Amtrak power car arrangement? Doubt it but who knows?


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## McIntyre2K7

Brian_tampa said:


> In a news report out of Orlando this evening, the spokeswoman for Brightline was saying that trains might reach 150 mph on certain straightaway sections of the I-4 ROW. This was during a presentation given by Brightline to the local Hillsborough County Transportation and Planning Organization on this past Tuesday Wednesday morning here. Maybe the trains can run at 150mph with two Chargers, but I wonder about the PTC system capabilities. Florida is flat and there are stretches of I-4 that are straight and long enough to accommodate these speeds.




Will Brightline add a Lakeland Station? I know the plans from the one from the 2000's had a Lakeland Stop? I know this is a private company and I can see them just bypassing Lakeland all together.


Below is a link to a map I created with a Brightline route from Orlando to Tampa with some added stops.

Disney
Lakeland Intermodal Center (connection with SunRail)
Florida Fairgrounds/Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino (Just in Case the Tampa Bay Rays do Move to the Florida State Fairgrounds.
Two Downtown Tampa options for the stations. One is to the east of Tampa Union Station and one is west of the Station. The one to the east of Tampa Union Station also has a brand new connection with the TECO Streetcar.
For SunRail I have new stations in Haines City, Auburndale and Lakeland. For SunRail, I know they are questioning funding when the counties take it over in 2024? Is it possible for the 4 counties to just hand it over to Amtrak and have Amtrak establish the Tampa to Jacksonville route?









Brightline Tampa to Orlando - Google My Maps


Brightline Tampa to Orlando




www.google.com


----------



## joelkfla

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Will Brightline add a Lakeland Station? I know the plans from the one from the 2000's had a Lakeland Stop? I know this is a private company and I can see them just bypassing Lakeland all together.
> 
> 
> Below is a link to a map I created with a Brightline route from Orlando to Tampa with some added stops.
> 
> Disney
> Lakeland Intermodal Center (connection with SunRail)
> Florida Fairgrounds/Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino (Just in Case the Tampa Bay Rays do Move to the Florida State Fairgrounds.
> Two Downtown Tampa options for the stations. One is to the east of Tampa Union Station and one is west of the Station. The one to the east of Tampa Union Station also has a brand new connection with the TECO Streetcar.
> For SunRail I have new stations in Haines City, Auburndale and Lakeland. For SunRail, I know they are questioning funding when the counties take it over in 2024? Is it possible for the 4 counties to just hand it over to Amtrak and have Amtrak establish the Tampa to Jacksonville route?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline Tampa to Orlando - Google My Maps
> 
> 
> Brightline Tampa to Orlando
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


Lakeland is not in the current plans. They are planning to run down the median of I-4. I don't know whether there would be enough room to build an infill station within or over the median in the future. Diverting off of I-4 would require additional elevated tracks and be expensive. Either option would also likely require approval from FL DOT.


----------



## Scott Orlando

It interesting that BL doesn’t talk about Lakeland anymore. If I recall correctly, they were in the original plan but not any more. As Joelkfla said, “where do you put the station”. Unless there is a wide spot in the median- which there are a few- it wont work. In addition, its cost ineffective to deviate. And we know they want to own and develop land near stations. 

Polk County is one of the fastest growing areas in Florida. But I believe they are “meh, maybe later” like Cocoa and Stuart.


----------



## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> I know... that's why I am a bit confused about this statement. I've always thought the Chargers had a maximum speed of 125mph. I understand all of the mechanical and engineering design reasons why they should not be able to run faster than 125mph. But yet we have this video with Brightline saying they are exploring the idea of running at 150mph. This doesn't square with all I have known so far.



Maybe they are talking about the next generation of equipment.

As ridership increases and the system grows (to Disney, Tampa etc) many more trains will be needed and it could well be they are considering a different train type, maybe cascading the present trains to stopping services while the new trains run the super express services.

Just a wild guess of course.


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## cirdan

west point said:


> one thought. Maybe bright line will work out some kind of adaptation of the proposed Amtrak power car arrangement? Doubt it but who knows?



I doubt that Brightline has the in-house expertise to actually make any major technical adaptations, let alone develop a new train.

But I am sure several of the major train manufacturers would be happy to propose the appropriate technology to them.


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## west point

Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?


----------



## cirdan

west point said:


> Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?



I don't think the frame should be the problem but operational dynamics of the trucks plus also weight.

There has as far as I know never been a commercial diesel locomotive designed for more than 125mph, and even speed records stop in the mid 140s. So a 150mph diesel locomotive would be breaking new ground. The challenge would be to extract more power without adding weight or pushing costs up excessively.


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## jis

The path between "looking at opportunities" and actually doing it is often strewn with all kinds of obstacles. So at present my thinking is that the intention is noble, but wait till the proverbial fat lady sings.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> The path between "looking at opportunities" and actually doing it is often strewn with all kinds of obstacles. So at present my thinking is that the intention is noble, but wait till the proverbial fat lady sings.



ROI is also a big factor.

150mph trains will be considerably more costly, both in purchase and in maintenance, than 125mph trains.

If that extra speed just shaves a minute off the schedule here and two minutes there, I don't think its worth it. If they can translate the extra speed into notable time savings, which would require longer stretches of continuous speed running, there might just possibly be a different argument.

I very much doubt it though.

Law of diminishing returns and all that.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> ROI is also a big factor.
> 
> 150mph trains will be considerably more costly, both in purchase and in maintenance, than 125mph trains.
> 
> If that extra speed just shaves a minute off the schedule here and two minutes there, I don't think its worth it. If they can translate the extra speed into notable time savings, which would require longer stretches of continuous speed running, there might just possibly be a different argument.
> 
> I very much doubt it though.
> 
> Law of diminishing returns and all that.


I completely agree with you.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

Scott Orlando said:


> It interesting that BL doesn’t talk about Lakeland anymore. If I recall correctly, they were in the original plan but not any more. As Joelkfla said, “where do you put the station”. Unless there is a wide spot in the median- which there are a few- it wont work. In addition, its cost ineffective to deviate. And we know they want to own and develop land near stations.
> 
> Polk County is one of the fastest growing areas in Florida. But I believe they are “meh, maybe later” like Cocoa and Stuart.



I mean there's a wide section of the median at I-4 and US Highway 98. There's open land as well so they can also develop it as well. I mean this is probably the best area where this would probably work in Lakeland. My first option I had in a earlier post would not work as I went back to check and the medians might not be wide enough.


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## Brian_tampa

McIntyre2K7 said:


> I mean there's a wide section of the median at I-4 and US Highway 98. There's open land as well so they can also develop it as well. I mean this is probably the best area where this would probably work in Lakeland. My first option I had in a earlier post would not work as I went back to check and the medians might not be wide enough.


Several years ago I did a quick survey of census data for the eastern Hillsborough (Tampa) and western Polk (Lakeland) Counties areas. I estimated there were about 600k people within 20 miles or a 30-40 minute drive of a station located at I-4 and US98 as depicted above. The 30 minutes is critical for this part of Florida. If the drive to the closest station is more than 30 minutes away, it is quicker for people living in these areas to get to any place by car that has a Brightline station such as those cities in south Florida.

The Tampa station location for us is such that it adds 20-60 minutes drive time plus additional time on the train (20 minutes from Tampa to the Lakeland station location) to go back east passing our homes. The Orlando station is very inconvenient even more so due to the horrendous traffic on I-4 as well as the frequent crashes.

I wrote letters to my contacts at Brightline explaining how they are overlooking this market. They promised to keep Lakeland on the list of future station sites.

Also, FDOT and Brightline are working together to keep any wide areas in the median intact for a station site near Lakeland over the next decade's worth of highway projects along I-4.


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## west point

Railway age article of bridge at Juipter. We expect the roaming railfan to document this exclusive.
Watch: Crews prepare to tackle complex drawbridge project on Brightline's Orlando route - Railway Track and Structures (rtands.com)


----------



## jis

Article about the WDW station...









Everything We Know About the High-Speed Train Station Planned for Disney World | the disney food blog


Here's everything we know about the new mass-transit train that was supposed to connect Disney World to the Orlando International Airport.




www.disneyfoodblog.com


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Article about the WDW station...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything We Know About the High-Speed Train Station Planned for Disney World | the disney food blog
> 
> 
> Here's everything we know about the new mass-transit train that was supposed to connect Disney World to the Orlando International Airport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.disneyfoodblog.com


There is one outright error: the orange area on that map is not the possible locations for a station, it's the envelope of possible routings for the approach to WDW.

While it does discuss some issues, the rest of the article is mostly speculation.

DFBlog does a great job on covering food and strategies for visiting WDW, but this feels like filler to meet a deadline.


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## cirdan

The article says:

"Brightline is a train company that has trains in both Florida and California. "

because some of the equipment has not yet been delivered and is still with Siemens in Sacramento?



or if its Brightline West they are thinking of, it's hardly accurate to describe the present status of that as "having trains in California"


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## VentureForth

Honestly not a bad article. Looks like they are honest in the information they offer - stating they don't have an answer when they don't. Nothing new to those of us here (ie: routing, how to deal with baggage, etc), but it's an accurate "preview" of future operations.

What I noticed to be inaccurate was their usage of the term "High Speed". Even though they acknowledged that the speed between MCO and DS will likely be slower than HSR, they are wrong to imply that the rest of the route is. Irrelevant to MCO, my peeve is their invocation of the Narita Express to Tokyo, then the Keiyo line to Maihama (my high school "home station") is not provided by Disney and only one of a plethora of ways to get to the park from the Airport. Narita is also a cool hour away vs 20 minutes in Orlando. But there are faster (and much cheaper) ways by rail than what was in the article.

Side note (and I think I've brought this up years ago), there was actually a "Shuttle Maihama" that actually ran direct from Tokyo to Maihama for no additional express fee. It ran most my Senior year and so happened to match perfectly with my commute home.




It had unique seating in each of the three cars - one was traditional club seating (blue), one had bench seating the entire length of the car all facing the bay (red; other side of the train was pretty much high rise apartments). I forgot what the third car was like (yellow).


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Honestly not a bad article. Looks like they are honest in the information they offer - stating they don't have an answer when they don't. Nothing new to those of us here (ie: routing, how to deal with baggage, etc), but it's an accurate "preview" of future operations.
> 
> What I noticed to be inaccurate was their usage of the term "High Speed". Even though they acknowledged that the speed between MCO and DS will likely be slower than HSR, they are wrong to imply that the rest of the route is. Irrelevant to MCO, my peeve is their invocation of the Narita Express to Tokyo, then the Keiyo line to Maihama (my high school "home station") is not provided by Disney and only one of a plethora of ways to get to the park from the Airport. Narita is also a cool hour away vs 20 minutes in Orlando. But there are faster (and much cheaper) ways by rail than what was in the article.
> 
> Side note (and I think I've brought this up years ago), there was actually a "Shuttle Maihama" that actually ran direct from Tokyo to Maihama for no additional express fee. It ran most my Senior year and so happened to match perfectly with my commute home.
> 
> View attachment 27669
> 
> 
> It had unique seating in each of the three cars - one was traditional club seating (blue), one had bench seating the entire length of the car all facing the bay (red; other side of the train was pretty much high rise apartments). I forgot what the third car was like (yellow).


The definition of HSR is purely technical. The average citizen has never heard of "Higher" Speed Rail, and has no idea of what is the speed threshold for HSR, which even varies among countries and organizations. And Brightline itself has sometimes thrown around the term indiscriminately. So that's forgivable.

The biggest sin was assuming that Brightline will be a practical way to get from the airport to WDW when Brightline has not said they are interested in that business, and in fact has hinted that somebody else should provide the service.

I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> The definition of HSR is purely technical. The average citizen has never heard of "Higher" Speed Rail, and has no idea of what is the speed threshold for HSR, which even varies among countries and organizations. And Brightline itself has sometimes thrown around the term indiscriminately. So that's forgivable.
> 
> The biggest sin was assuming that Brightline will be a practical way to get from the airport to WDW when Brightline has not said they are interested in that business, and in fact has hinted that somebody else should provide the service.
> 
> I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.


I get what you're saying about "HSR", but people are applying it where it's not even referenced (Brightline doesn't explicitly mention HSR on their website). But they do plan on WDW. They are showing Disney Springs as a future stop WELL before the Orlando leg is even finished and before they even publicly mention any potential stops between MCO and WPB. 

In all fairness, the article does list all the potential downfalls to using Brightline as an MCO/WDW connection. But, yeah, it's intended audience (Disney FANatics) are well served with the info.

FWIW - I just did something for the first time ever.... Just BOUGHT my family our first Annual Passes to WDW. I had so many comp tickets from my time there, then a cast member friend pass'd us in once, and all that got used up.

Now I wish Brightline was up and running all the way to Tampa and had a station at Melbourne AND Disney Springs. LOL


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> I suppose someone who hadn't been following the subject might gain some info of which they weren't aware, but they also might have had false hopes risen.



At the end of the day its welcome good news and free publicity for an innovative and unique train service.

And who can have an issue with that?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> At the end of the day its welcome good news and free publicity for an innovative and unique train service.
> 
> And who can have an issue with that?


Yup. The details will take a while to work themselves out anyway. Do we even know exactly what route will finally get selected?


----------



## George Harris

west point said:


> Does anyone have comparison of ALC-44s and ACS-64s? If running gear is same for both then it might be possible to run ALCs at 150. That is trucks, wheels, traction motors and maybe frame. Maybe frame is different?


Remember, a diesel locomotive is basically an electric locomotive that is carrying the source of the electricity on its back. The question really gets down to weight per axle. Generally electric locomotives, in addition to carrying the equipment to convert 25kV AC to motor appropriate current have weight added to provide for effective adhesion. If carrying the diesel engine makes the whole thing too heavy, then the issue is to lighten the power plant or to have more axles. So, to say that an engine is speed limited solely because it is diesel powered is actually an error in concept.


----------



## jis

George Harris said:


> Remember, a diesel locomotive is basically an electric locomotive that is carrying the source of the electricity on its back. The question really gets down to weight per axle. Generally electric locomotives, in addition to carrying the equipment to convert 25kV AC to motor appropriate current have weight added to provide for effective adhesion. If carrying the diesel engine makes the whole thing too heavy, then the issue is to lighten the power plant or to have more axles. So, to say that an engine is speed limited solely because it is diesel powered is actually an error in concept.


More so when you are doing an articulated train set and are able to use what amounts to tenders to spread out the weight and of course potentially powered axles too.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Yup. The details will take a while to work themselves out anyway. Do we even know exactly what route will finally get selected?


Nope -- no news for months.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Tri-Rail plans arrival in downtown Miami by Nov. 1


“We are showing a revenue starting date of Nov. 1,” said Steven Abrams, executive director of the South Florida Transportation Regional Authority, about Tri-Rail service into Miami Central Station. The long-awaited service that would finally bring




www.miamitodaynews.com


----------



## Palmland

Looks like politics is affecting Brightline plans. Brightline wanted a more direct and less costly route from MCO to Disney. The infrastructure money was irresistible to those who want to route it via International Drive , Universal, and the Convention Center. This afternoon’s Orlando Sentinel (digital) had this article (paywall):

“ Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airport to SunRail’s current north-south tracks, the Orange County Convention Center and south International Drive. “I’m calling this the ‘jobs train,’” said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who hosted dozens of private meetings in recent months between Universal Studios, Brightline and others to resolve what had been a deadlock over the route from the airport across southwest Orange County. Under a vision emerging from those meetings, Brightline would lease rights to use that east-west SunRail corridor and would build its own tracks from Disney to Tampa.”

But if Sunrail service can be improved I’m all for it. Seems a good use for infrastructure dollars as long as Brightline can continue to Tampa from
Disney without more hurdles. May actually be a good compromise.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Compromise plan could extend Brightline toward Tampa, SunRail in Orlando


SunRail east-west line? Check. Convention Center station? Check. Brightline Disney station? Check. Doable? TBD.




floridapolitics.com


----------



## joelkfla

IMHO, this puts a WDW station up in the air. It sounds like Disney has not bought into the new plan, and may not have even been involved in the meetings. In past proposals, Disney refused to participate in any route that would stop at I-Drive as well as WDW.

What's more, the Sentinel article says, "The Sunshine Corridor Program calls for a SunRail schedule of a train every 15 minutes between the airport and south I-Drive." Kind of turns a cold shoulder to Disney.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> IMHO, this puts a WDW station up in the air. It sounds like Disney has not bought into the new plan, and may not have even been involved in the meetings. In past proposals, Disney refused to participate in any route that would stop at I-Drive as well as WDW.
> 
> What's more, the Sentinel article says, "The Sunshine Corridor Program calls for a SunRail schedule of a train every 15 minutes between the airport and south I-Drive." Kind of turns a cold shoulder to Disney.


But as it turns out, this plan is more aligned with the original corridors planned for access to the airport. Originally they talked about every possible gadget bahn for the Airport I-Drive segment. Given the availability of funding this one takes care of that corridor. It would be interesting to see if Disney will completely opt out of having a station if this plan proceeds. That would be unfortunate but I would not shed a tear over it. They are big boys and should know what is best for themselves.


----------



## neroden

Palmland said:


> Looks like politics is affecting Brightline plans. Brightline wanted a more direct and less costly route from MCO to Disney. The infrastructure money was irresistible to those who want to route it via International Drive , Universal, and the Convention Center. This afternoon’s Orlando Sentinel (digital) had this article (paywall):
> 
> “ Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airport to SunRail’s current north-south tracks, the Orange County Convention Center and south International Drive. “I’m calling this the ‘jobs train,’” said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who hosted dozens of private meetings in recent months between Universal Studios, Brightline and others to resolve what had been a deadlock over the route from the airport across southwest Orange County. Under a vision emerging from those meetings, Brightline would lease rights to use that east-west SunRail corridor and would build its own tracks from Disney to Tampa.”
> 
> But if Sunrail service can be improved I’m all for it. Seems a good use for infrastructure dollars as long as Brightline can continue to Tampa from
> Disney without more hurdles. May actually be a good compromise.



Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*.

From my point of view, it gets me to the theme parks on International Drive (since there is a decent bus service up and down International Drive, and although I get motion-sick on buses, a mile or two is not a big deal).

The deal with Disney may end up being that Brightline trains run from the airport to Disney nonstop, and only Sunrail trains stop at the International Drive station, or something like that. That would probably satisfy Disney's hatred of competitors. Won't cause any problems for those of us who don't mind changing trains! It would probably be smarter for Disney to run special Disney-themed trains as shuttles to the Orlando Airport but they don't seem that smart.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*


Indeed. This is all about trying to tap into the Infrastructure Funds from the feds, and will proceed only if such becomes available. SunRail has no funds of its own. The capital is all funded through federal grants, and for operating budget there is continuous belly aching among the counties and FDOT.

If there is no federal funds, none of this will happen, and Brightline will revert to whatever they were going to fund themselves. Perish the though of FDOT coming up with the whole amount. Won't happen. Of course, the fat cats on I-Drive and at Universal could change that by putting some money where their mouth is too! But it looks like their main interest is to find a trough in which they can sink their snouts to suck enough funds thus sparing their own pockets.


----------



## neroden

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but *this* is why I live in the city I live in. If we can't get federal or state funding, we *will actually just pay for it ourselves*. It's nice to live in a city which does that.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> Brightline's position has ALWAYS been that they're happy with the International Drive route if someone else will pay for it. So, this seems fine, *provided SunRail actually pays for and builds the east-west route*.
> 
> From my point of view, it gets me to the theme parks on International Drive (since there is a decent bus service up and down International Drive, and although I get motion-sick on buses, a mile or two is not a big deal).
> 
> The deal with Disney may end up being that Brightline trains run from the airport to Disney nonstop, and only Sunrail trains stop at the International Drive station, or something like that. That would probably satisfy Disney's hatred of competitors. Won't cause any problems for those of us who don't mind changing trains! It would probably be smarter for Disney to run special Disney-themed trains as shuttles to the Orlando Airport but they don't seem that smart.



To me it seems that if Disney cannot offer a one seat ride between the airport and hotels / resorts / attractions, but is offering a higher(er) speed train ride over a ridiculously short distance to an exchange terminal in the middle of nowhere with onward transfer by buses or ride shares, that's not really a big selling point versus a direct bus ride from the airport.

I don't really see what's in it for Disney, and don't believe they will be putting any big money on the table for something that is of only marginal benefit to them.

Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.


That would be highly unlikely to get past Disney's budget cutters. Disney got out of the airport transportation business as of the beginning of this year, and for now seems content to leave it to others, except possibly for their high cost and likely high profit car service which may resume when they can get enough drivers.

It's unknown, but I think Brightline was the one who approached Disney with the proposal for a WDW station, and it was to carry passengers to WDW from South FL & Tampa, not from the airport.

But if SunRail now wants to provide direct service between the airport and Universal's new park, that gives Universal a leg up, and introduces a new wrinkle into Disney's strategizing.


----------



## VentureForth

Interestingly, Disney Springs was originally designed to be a residential and retail area with a big mutli-modal transit center. Then they discovered that residents of Lake Buena Vista can vote in Lake Buena Vista, threatening the special status with the State (which doesn't seem to be a big deal with the high end homes they build on property and the proposed "low income" housing for employees).

There should have been a massive transit infrastructure installed 25 years ago.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Interestingly, Disney Springs was originally designed to be a residential and retail area with a big mutli-modal transit center. Then they discovered that residents of Lake Buena Vista can vote in Lake Buena Vista, threatening the special status with the State (which doesn't seem to be a big deal with the high end homes they build on property and the proposed "low income" housing for employees).
> 
> There should have been a massive transit infrastructure installed 25 years ago.


Golden Oak was deannexed from Lake Buena Vista.

My understanding is that the low-income housing is proposed to be rental units. I don't know whether that poses the same issue, but if it does, it will be deannexed as well. The location is on the western edge of Disney property,


----------



## MARC Rider

cirdan said:


> Much as I dislike Gadgetbahns, this is actually a situation where having a Gadgetbahn circulator built and controlled by Disney that connects all the hotels / resorts / attractions and then goes on the airport seems the most sensible solution.


Why build a gadgetbahn when they can just build a circulator using standard railroad technology? In fact, I suppose they could just build a spur line off the Brightline or Sun Rail route and make arrangements to run trains directly into the Disney properties.


----------



## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> Why build a gadgetbahn when they can just build a circulator using standard railroad technology? In fact, I suppose they could just build a spur line off the Brightline or Sun Rail route and make arrangements to run trains directly into the Disney properties.



One would have to run the figures and decide what type of gadgetbahn exactly we are comparing conventional rail to, and also expected ridership. But my impression from many Orlando area hotel complexes etc is that there aren't exactly oodles of space to build a rail alignment onto the property. But maybe a gadgetbahn that is suspended and can take tight corners can always be accomodated somehow. That and Disney's apparent willingness to re-invent the wheel every time they build a train or rail connection of some sort anywhere.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> That and Disney's apparent willingness to re-invent the wheel every time they build a train or rail connection of some sort anywhere.


That was Walt's Disney. Walt was a train lover, a futurist, and a risk taker.

Wall Street's Disney is conservative, bottom line focused, and has no particular love of rail transit. They did install the Skyliner aerial gondola transit system a few years ago, but it was not the first system of its type, not rail-based, and probably less expensive than a rail-based alternative like LRT.


----------



## jis

> Representative Darren Soto tweeted this afternoon that a deal had been reached to connect workers and tourists from the SunRail to the airport, Walt Disney World, Universal Orlando Resort, Sea World, I-Drive, and the Brightline to Tampa.



Full article at SunRail and Brightline Deal Reached for Connecting Central Florida Attractions and Orlando International Airport - WDW News Today


----------



## VentureForth

This is a bit of a shocker. Passenger train speeds from Martin County through Brevard county were released by Brightline. I really thought it was going to be 79 to Cocoa, then 110-125 from Cocoa to Orlando.

Full disclosure - I don't really see a solid chain of custody to the source data, but this is what treasurecoast.com is sharing.

Brightline releases train speeds (treasurecoast.com)


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> This is a bit of a shocker. Passenger train speeds from Martin County through Brevard county were released by Brightline. I really thought it was going to be 79 to Cocoa, then 110-125 from Cocoa to Orlando.
> 
> Full disclosure - I don't really see a solid chain of custody to the source data, but this is what treasurecoast.com is sharing.
> 
> Brightline releases train speeds (treasurecoast.com)
> 
> View attachment 28062


 It has been known for a long time that max speed will be 110mph between WPB and Cocoa.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> It has been known for a long time that max speed will be 110mph between WPB and Cocoa.


OK. I focused on the 125 from Cocoa to MCO that I missed 110 from WPB to Cocoa. Didn't think that the grade crossings they were putting in seemed suitable for 110 MPH. I really worry about New Haven and any other place where a lot of drunk people are close to the tracks.


----------



## jis

Personally I think they ought to fence much more of the ROW through populated areas, somewhat like NEC is. I think they will eventually do it but after a spate of pedestrian trespasser incidents. But who knows? Anyhow, the issue will get forced by events I think.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> OK. I focused on the 125 from Cocoa to MCO that I missed 110 from WPB to Cocoa. Didn't think that the grade crossings they were putting in seemed suitable for 110 MPH. I really worry about New Haven and any other place where a lot of drunk people are close to the tracks.


I thought they were putting in full quad gates with overhead warning lights, no?

I think the biggest problem is drivers entering a crossing when there's a red light on the other side and they don't have space to clear the tracks. But that's a problem regardless of train speed, as it has been here in Orlando for the relatively slow moving SunRail.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> I thought they were putting in full quad gates with overhead warning lights, no?
> 
> I think the biggest problem is drivers entering a crossing when there's a red light on the other side and they don't have space to clear the tracks. But that's a problem regardless of train speed, as it has been here in Orlando for the relatively slow moving SunRail.


They are. But none of the cross-lane barriers. Just seems a bit to easy (particularly for pedestrians) to wander into. The crossing where there are sidewalks have pedestrian gates, but again, seem lightweight vs consequences.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> They are. But none of the cross-lane barriers. Just seems a bit to easy (particularly for pedestrians) to wander into. The crossing where there are sidewalks have pedestrian gates, but again, seem lightweight vs consequences.


I don't think we should hold up progress or spend millions of dollars to protect drivers who are stupid and determined enough to try to beat the gate coming down on the opposing traffic lanes in the few seconds delay after the gate on the proper lanes drops. Their actions are clearly willful and reckless.

If the communities along the line want quiet zones, they may have to install mitigating measures at their own expense if the safety survey determines the risk is great enough.


----------



## jis

I think no matter what you do it will be a live experiment for a while as the new stable state of the environment is determined with the introduction of a thing that perturbs normal flow of things including stupidity.


----------



## west point

It seems that there will continue to be incidents no matter what enforcement. It all comes down to distracted driving and walking. I confess to getting distracted driving a few times including in the past at a RR crossing thankfully with no consequence. I hope that Brightline has enough spare parts for their locos and has a very competent repair force to quickly repair the locos.

That brings up the problem of legal holds after accidents. I have no idea what the tort laws are in Florida but there has been Amtrak equipment tied up for more than a year after an accident. The Cal Z accident is over what 2 + years?


----------



## jis

As far as the parts inventory for repairs goes, that at the end of the day is Siemens' problem since Brightline has contracted all that out to Siemens.


----------



## jiml

Florida videographer Danny Harmon takes an operational overview of Brightline:


----------



## VentureForth

Some of the latest developments in Video:


----------



## jis

Compromise plan could extend Brightline toward Tampa, SunRail in Orlando


SunRail east-west line? Check. Convention Center station? Check. Brightline Disney station? Check. Doable? TBD.




floridapolitics.com


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Compromise plan could extend Brightline toward Tampa, SunRail in Orlando
> 
> 
> SunRail east-west line? Check. Convention Center station? Check. Brightline Disney station? Check. Doable? TBD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> floridapolitics.com


I was halfway thru before I realized I'd already read this.  





Brightline Florida update


Remember, a diesel locomotive is basically an electric locomotive that is carrying the source of the electricity on its back. The question really gets down to weight per axle. Generally electric locomotives, in addition to carrying the equipment to convert 25kV AC to motor appropriate current...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Tlcooper93

A little off the current topic, but the number of serious incidents involving a car and a Brightline train is beginning to become ridiculous. Aside from elimination of grade crossings, what can be done here? Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?

It seems this will continue. 
I followed the complete Brightline route on google maps and the number of grade crossings is considerable - maybe even too many for a train that wants to go 79mph consistently. 

At this point, service will suffer as the number of crashes go up.


----------



## VentureForth

Tlcooper93 said:


> A little off the current topic, but the number of serious incidents involving a car and a Brightline train is beginning to become ridiculous. Aside from elimination of grade crossings, what can be done here? Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?
> 
> It seems this will continue.
> I followed the complete Brightline route on google maps and the number of grade crossings is considerable - maybe even too many for a train that wants to go 79mph consistently.
> 
> At this point, service will suffer as the number of crashes go up.



They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.


I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.

They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.
> 
> They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.


There will certainly be quad gates, and even around Melbourne, I've seen pedestrian gates. But I don't think that the pedestrian gates are capable of getting a determined soul from taking their life, or even a not-so-determined drunk person stumbling from the numerous bars that are on either side of the tracks. Not to mention, unless they aren't done yet, no adequate fencing along the ROW that I've seen.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.


Not 120 mph. 110 mph. You cannot legally go 120 mph in the US unless you have a sealed corridor with any grade crossing present protected by more or less impenetrable physical barriers across the road when gates are down. These would be similar to those used at airports to protect entry into the secured zone.

Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?



My YouTube queue has been suggesting "idiots in cars" videos a lot lately - it's surprising, yet somehow not, that people are terrible drivers and try to beat trains and lights, etc. It's surprising that there aren't more crashes from some of the insanity I've seen.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.


Yes. They are all being equipped with intrusion detectors interlinked with the I-ETMS+ system. But they are of limited help if the intrusion happens too close to the train's arrival at the crossing. But at least those that are trying to beat a 4 quad gate and get stuck on the track will probably trigger things early enough since the gates come down quite a bit before the train arrives.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?



Without being aware of the details, in my opinion one problem is that housing is being built in areas that were previously green fields and often without much thought being given to pedestrians. If you can chose between chancing it across a major highway or walking a three-mile detour in the middle of the night to use the nearest legal crossing, I think a lot of people will take their chances, especially at times of day that there isn't much traffic, which typically also coincide with times they may have had a glass too much to drink (which may be the reason they aren't driving in the first place) and as a result of that misestimate the speed of approaching cars.

So quite possibly, if you provide safe and legal crossing places (as in, over or under passes) and combine that with fencing then people will use them. But some areas have far too few of those and its always difficult to put them in retroactively . 

So people being dumb may be one part of the story, but lack of legal and safe crossings may be another.


----------



## Ziv

Cirdan, I think both you and Jis have accurately described a part of the "body elephant" that is the problem. I spend a lot of my time in my home state of Montana and at-grade crossings are everywhere and with the new long, long freight trains there is a huge temptation to "beat the train" to the crossing, despite how stupid that is. But underpasses or overpasses are expensive so little is done. The railroads have always been there but the temptation is greater now that the wait is longer.
But Jis is right, too. There are a lot of stupid people, (or people that might not have been as stupid before they drank a dozen beers), who just aren't all that capable of coherent thought with regards to how fast a train is approaching.
Then there is the final part of the equation, suicide by train, which is harder to eliminate but not impossible to reduce.
I think BrightLine is doing their best to mitigate the dearth of overpasses, since underpasses in Florida frequently encounter problems due to the water table frequently being just a few feet below the surface. But suicide prevention fencing is going to take time and I think we are going to have quite a few people killing themselves by train in Florida, intentionally or not, in the years to come. I understand BrightLine's position but the optics are really bad and they need to both spend more money and be seen as being actively trying to engage the community even more to address the issue.



cirdan said:


> Without being aware of the details, in my opinion one problem is that housing is being built in areas that were previously green fields and often without much thought being given to pedestrians. If you can chose between chancing it across a major highway or walking a three-mile detour in the middle of the night to use the nearest legal crossing, I think a lot of people will take their chances, especially at times of day that there isn't much traffic, which typically also coincide with times they may have had a glass too much to drink (which may be the reason they aren't driving in the first place) and as a result of that misestimate the speed of approaching cars.
> 
> So quite possibly, if you provide safe and legal crossing places (as in, over or under passes) and combine that with fencing then people will use them. But some areas have far too few of those and its always difficult to put them in retroactively .
> 
> So people being dumb may be one part of the story, but lack of legal and safe crossings may be another.


----------



## UserNameRequired

joelkfla said:


> I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.
> 
> They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.


Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.


----------



## jis

That is the reason that quad gates are not recommended in the absence of uncrossable dividers that stretch out quitea distance from the crossing in both directions. But of course, someone who is hell bent on getting killed will eventually succeed.


----------



## joelkfla

UserNameRequired said:


> Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.


It is possible and recommended to link the closing of the exit gate to the vehicle detection system.



http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PUBLISHED/Graphics/5326.PDF





https://railtec.illinois.edu/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf-archive/09B1-GLXS2014-1003-HORNE.pdf





https://www.fra.dot.gov/conference/row/pdf/Presentations/Design%20and%20Technology/Evaluation%20of%20Dynamic%20Gate%20Operations%20with%20Vehicle%20Detection.pdf


----------



## Brian_tampa

News from today's Sunshine Corridor workshop meeting. From the presentation given: Universal and I-Drive committed $125M using PABs for construction, Universal to donate 13 acres of land for a station; from both parties: $13M in guaranteed annual ticket revenue, and $2M towards annual maintenance costs.

Another very complicated deal to be made in Orlando! Just like the 4-way deal back in 2013 to get the train to the airport via SR528.

Personally I think they should committ $250M for construction to balance the tax money versus their private profit from having the new rail link, but the guaranteed ticket revenue is just as good as well. Especially if it is linked to inflation over the years.

Download is from Orlando Business Journals, no paywall, however adblockers are detected though.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-pledges-land-investment-in-sunrail-brig.html

Edit: here is a link to an updated Orlando Sentinel report with some more details, but is behind a paywall.

Universal, SunRail, Brightline eye $1B rail expansion from Orlando airport to I-Drive


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Tlcooper93 said:


> Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?


I would support all of that but I think the bigger issue is that we set the bar too low for acquiring licenses when we’re young and keeping them when we're old. Florida seems to be a perfect storm of spring breakers and retirees.



UserNameRequired said:


> Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.


If we go by social media videos it seems we're not doing nearly enough to train drivers on the seemingly obvious dangers and solutions around them. So many dash cam videos have left me shaking my head in confused disbelief. That being said I’ve run into my own problems when a silent (no horn) four-gate crossing malfunctioned and I realized the builders never implemented a solution for leaving the waiting zone without breaking through the gates and fouling the tracks.


----------



## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> Universal and I-Drive committed $125M using PABs for construction


Definition of PAB: Private Activity Bond (PAB)


Brian_tampa said:


> Download is from Orlando Business Journals, no paywall, however adblockers are detected though.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-pledges-land-investment-in-sunrail-brig.html


It *is *behind a paywall. After turning off my ad blocker, I got this:


----------



## Brian_tampa

joelkfla said:


> Definition of PAB: Private Activity Bond (PAB)
> 
> It *is *behind a paywall. After turning off my ad blocker, I got this:
> 
> View attachment 28359


That's different from what I got once I turned my adblocker off. Such is the internet! I also delete the website cookies and cached stuff too. Maybe that makes a difference?


----------



## Brian_tampa

Yet another vehicle versus Brightline crash tonight

Brightline train collides with tractor-trailer in Lantana

The location is at another grade crossing that is next to an intersection with a road (in this case Dixie Highway) that parallels the tracks that has no traffic signals.

And this grade crossing is in a quiet zone that does not have quad gates. How is that allowed? I thought quiet zone crossings have to have quad gates? A quick Google maps check seems to show only the major road crossings in the area have quad gates.

This location has only a stop sign at the intersection for the road that crosses the tracks. The distance between the tracks and the parallel road intersection is short - not enough for the vehicle trailer the truck was hauling to clear the tracks when stopped at the intersection. How could there be any expectation that the truck driver could stop short of the crossing and be able to safely enter the intersection?

My question is, how did this intersection get approval for the quiet zone with the lack of quad gates and signalization at the adjacent intersection? The incident on Monday was at a similar crossing with stop signs at the parallel intersections and lacking quad gates.

I am now suspecting that safety has taken a back seat in South Florida as far as grade crossing designs there go on the FECR. Seems like a lot of safety devices were not installed in order to save money.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Here is a picture of the Brightline Charger that hit the vehicle carrier earlier this evening. 3 incidents in 4 days has got to impact their ability to run normal service now.


----------



## west point

Siemens is going to need a lot of spare noses for the chargers. Palm Beach maintenance is going to become #1 for charger body work. Are they are doing more noses than the whole Amtrak people at Beech?


----------



## cirdan

UserNameRequired said:


> Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.



Cameras and AI could provide a solution here, as could (where space allows) moving the gates away from the tracks so there is a "safe area"


----------



## railiner

Seems to me that the only really safe solution would be the prohibitively expensive elevation of the FEC and total grade separation through densely developed areas.
The NEC has done that, but they had started it way back when it was financially and politically feasible…


----------



## John Bredin

Here's a Palm Beach Post columnist suggesting an old-school solution: horns.


----------



## west point

Traffic light cameras at all crossing $1000.00 minimum fine. If a policeman catches you $5k. Maybe allow cops that are off regular duty be provided with OT to get drivers. Use fines to upgrade enforcement. 
On other side, tickets must have camera enforcement.

There are locations where a parallel road to the tracks is too close to the tracks. That IMO requires a traffic light at that crossing. As well there must be a light before the crossing to stop traffic from crossing tracks until the traffic can get on parallel road. As well loops must be installed to require traffic light to give priority to any vehicle still fouling crossing.

Traffic turning off parallel must also be engineered for safety.


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> As well loops must be installed to require traffic light to give priority to any vehicle still fouling crossing.


Slightly off topic: Studies say that radar is preferrable over buried loops, for both accuracy and durability. I was surprised to read that loops are more likely to give a false indication for a vehicle in the adjoining lane.


----------



## neroden

Brian_tampa said:


> Yet another vehicle versus Brightline crash tonight
> 
> Brightline train collides with tractor-trailer in Lantana
> 
> The location is at another grade crossing that is next to an intersection with a road (in this case Dixie Highway) that parallels the tracks that has no traffic signals.
> 
> And this grade crossing is in a quiet zone that does not have quad gates. How is that allowed? I thought quiet zone crossings have to have quad gates? A quick Google maps check seems to show only the major road crossings in the area have quad gates.


It's quad gates or an unclimable divider in the median between the two directions of travel on the road. This has neither. You're right, the FRA does not normally give quiet zone authorization for this -- what's going on? 

There is a process for determining that the risk in a particular quiet zone is much less than the national average risk for crossings where horns are blown, and authorizing it that way, but it has to get reapproved every year, and c'mon, this is Florida, there is no way they qualified that way.

There are options for "alternative safety measures" but I don't see anything special here.

It might be a "Pre-Rule" grandfathered quiet zone?



> My question is, how did this intersection get approval for the quiet zone with the lack of quad gates and signalization at the adjacent intersection? The incident on Monday was at a similar crossing with stop signs at the parallel intersections and lacking quad gates.
> 
> I am now suspecting that safety has taken a back seat in South Florida as far as grade crossing designs there go on the FECR. Seems like a lot of safety devices were not installed in order to save money.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Devil's Advocate said:


> I would support all of that but I think the bigger issue is that we set the bar too low for acquiring licenses when we’re young and keeping them when we're old.



Agreed, though a symptom of a larger problem: a car dependent society. Taking away licenses from these sizable groups would render too many immobile, and it would never fly in government, as they continue to push for car dependency.


----------



## cirdan

Tlcooper93 said:


> Agreed, though a symptom of a larger problem: a car dependent society. Taking away licenses from these sizable groups would render too many immobile, and it would never fly in government, as they continue to push for car dependency.



It's a chicken and egg, or maybe carrot versus stick question.

As long as there is no viable alternative to driving, you cannot enact policies that dissuade driving.

On the other hand, outside of densely inhabited metroplex areas, said alternative systems suffer from inherently low ridership and thus cannot justify expansion.


----------



## Tlcooper93

cirdan said:


> It's a chicken and egg, or maybe carrot versus stick question.
> 
> As long as there is no viable alternative to driving, you cannot enact policies that dissuade driving.
> 
> On the other hand, outside of densely inhabited metroplex areas, said alternative systems suffer from inherently low ridership and thus cannot justify expansion.


This is true, but the US will never have a truly viable alternative to driving in places other the biggest metro areas at least in the next 50 years.


----------



## jis

The first train has apparently rolled into the Orlando Airport station from the maintenance facility there...









First Look: Brightline Rolls Into Orlando Station - Railway Age


Brightline, Florida’s private-sector passenger railroad, is another step closer to extending its 67-mile Miami-to-West Palm Beach line north to Orlando.




www.railwayage.com


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## crescent-zephyr

Tlcooper93 said:


> This is true, but the US will never have a truly viable alternative to driving in places other the biggest metro areas at least in the next 50 years.



While technically still driving, driverless cars as Uber/lyft’s could make some major changes to how get around.


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## Brian_tampa

I had heard from a source recently that test trains will be running (eventually at MAS) on the new route between Cocoa and MCO Orlando airport in September, if all stays on schedule. I wonder if the base of operations for these test trains will be the VMF? Makes sense, as the next two trainsets are to be delivered to the VMF in July/August timeframe. That way they can build up a crew base in the Orlando area. Plus, it's more efficient as the new route to test is not hours of travel away.


----------



## Fenway

I was crushed when the Tampa/Orlando high-speed project was canceled in 2011









Florida High-Speed Corridor - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





But after the initial anger, I came to realize that Governor Scott had legitimate questions, especially on local transit options once arriving in Tampa, Orlando, and Lakeland. Orlando would have worked but the other 2 cities I am not sure. 

Public transportation in Tampa Bay is arguably the worst of any major US metro region. 

I think 10 years later Uber and Lyft have changed the equation somewhat as we have seen in Los Angeles.


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## Tlcooper93

Fenway said:


> I was crushed when the Tampa/Orlando high-speed project was canceled in 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida High-Speed Corridor - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But after the initial anger, I came to realize that Governor Scott had legitimate questions, especially on local transit options once arriving in Tampa, Orlando, and Lakeland. Orlando would have worked but the other 2 cities I am not sure.
> 
> Public transportation in Tampa Bay is arguably the worst of any major US metro region.
> 
> I think 10 years later Uber and Lyft have changed the equation somewhat as we have seen in Los Angeles.


Agreed. When in St. P, I was shocked to see that the bus route I was closest to only came twice a day.
A funny anecdote and back on topic, I promise:
Upon this poor bus-performance realization, my wife and I rented a car. The first question I was asked was regarding car insurance (to which he was shocked to find out I didn't own a car or have insurance). He was subsequently even more shocked when he found out subways existed outside of NYC, specifically Boston; he was excited to ride one one day. And finally, I was shocked when he asked me where I would be placing my firearm; he was surprised when he found out I was not carrying one.

Back to on topic:
I genuinely think there is much to be learned from the work Brightline has done in the last decade. The fact that for the first time in in decades we will be seeing a true HrSR service, in FL of all places, is nothing short of extraordinary, and bodes well for the future of rail and transit in this country. In a way the CAHSR project has failed, Brightline is now a proof of concept for "fast, frequent trains." The ridership numbers alone make Brightline rival the Surfliner, and thats without an Orlando extension yet. Connecting a major class B hub will certainly change things as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the service hits 2 million a year in 5 years.


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## jis

It is not quite High Speed Rail by world standards, but nevertheless it will be conveient for those that are able to use it. They just have to capture a few percent of the Miami - Orlando market to do well financially. Although it should be noted that their equipment order suggests that they have lowered their sights somewhat from the original 10 car trains plan.


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## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> It is not quite High Speed Rail by world standards, but nevertheless it will be conveient for those that are able to use it. They just have to capture a few percent of the Miami - Orlando market to do well financially. Although it should be noted that their equipment order suggests that they have lowered their sights somewhat from the original 10 car trains plan.


Notice I wrote “HrSR,” instead of HSR
By that I mean 110-125.


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## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> Notice I wrote “HrSR,” instead of HSR
> By that I mean 110-125.


That is why I did not quote your post.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> It is not quite High Speed Rail by world standards, but nevertheless it will be conveient for those that are able to use it. They just have to capture a few percent of the Miami - Orlando market to do well financially. Although it should be noted that their equipment order suggests that they have lowered their sights somewhat from the original 10 car trains plan.


If I recall correctly from some years ago, they always spoke of a 3 to 5 year ramp up schedule before they could utilize the 10 car trainsets. Covid has delayed that schedule. The one difference I can think of from the early (pre-2016) plans is the lack of a Cafe car. Even now, no one I have talked to at Brightline will commit to them having them in service with or after the start of full service to Orlando in the next few years. The subsequent order for the 5 additional trainsets was agreed upon back in 2016/17 or so as an option to the original 5 trainset order. This agreement with Siemens was an attachment to one of the PAB investor solicitation documents. From what I recall it never has been set in stone for the 10 car trainset order once they finalized on the manufacturer in 2014.

From recent conversations I have had, they will add cars to trains as demand increases. Once demand hits a certain level (such as sold out trains limiting revenue or new requests for special event trains), expect to see new orders for more coach cars in the next year or so. I expect to see 5 or 6 car trainsets in the next 2 years based on year 2022 ridership trends.


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## Brian_tampa

Tlcooper93 said:


> Agreed. When in St. P, I was shocked to see that the bus route I was closest to only came twice a day.
> A funny anecdote and back on topic, I promise:
> Upon this poor bus-performance realization, my wife and I rented a car. The first question I was asked was regarding car insurance (to which he was shocked to find out I didn't own a car or have insurance). He was subsequently even more shocked when he found out subways existed outside of NYC, specifically Boston; he was excited to ride one one day. And finally, I was shocked when he asked me where I would be placing my firearm; he was surprised when he found out I was not carrying one.
> 
> Back to on topic:
> I genuinely think there is much to be learned from the work Brightline has done in the last decade. The fact that for the first time in in decades we will be seeing a true HrSR service, in FL of all places, is nothing short of extraordinary, and bodes well for the future of rail and transit in this country. In a way the CAHSR project has failed, Brightline is now a proof of concept for "fast, frequent trains." The ridership numbers alone make Brightline rival the Surfliner, and thats without an Orlando extension yet. Connecting a major class B hub will certainly change things as well.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the service hits 2 million a year in 5 years.


I think that once Orlando opens, the first year (2023) will see 2 million. Ridership trends are very strong so far this year. They will soon hit a limit based on available seats (4 car trainsets versus longer trainsets).


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## jis

Do we have any way of knowing what kind of RASM they are getting so far?


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Do we have any way of knowing what kind of RASM they are getting so far?


I have never seen or been told that number (revenue per available seat mile). They only provide average fare per passenger. The latest numbers for April were released yesterday and are increasing even compared to April 2019 (ridership up 32% and average fare per passenger up 4% over 4/2019).


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## Brian_tampa

Since Brightline sets fares based on demand, much like the airlines, I would imagine their RASM number might not be as meaningful as compared to transit systems that have a set fare structure. We do know their maximum number of seats available per day (or month) and even train. From that and the total ridership and average revenue numbers, we might determine how much potential revenue is available even on a per train basis. That way they know when to add additional trains and what revenue to expect from the new trains.


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## jis

RASM and CASM are always meaningful no matter how convoluted the fare structure is. That is why all airlines publish those two numbers regularly.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> RASM and CASM are always meaningful no matter how convoluted the fare structure is. That is why all airlines publish those two numbers regularly.


I'm admittedly a bit out of the loop with these numbers. Could you explain more why they are useful even with not straight forward fare structures?


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## jis

It gives a high level overview of how the transport part of the business is doing. Say if CASM is greater than RASM you know it isn’t doing all that well no matter how fast revenue may be growing.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> It gives a high level overview of how the transport part of the business is doing. Say if CASM is greater than RASM you know it isn’t doing all that well no matter how fast revenue may be growing.


Then it should be easy to determine the RASM for Brightline. Just figure out how many seats per train and the number of miles per month (or whatever time period is standard). Then take the revenue per month and divide by the available seat miles per month. CASM would definitely involve proprietary numbers that Brightline does not report transparently. At this point, I am sure their CASM is much greater than their RASM. Other than airlines, who uses these numbers?


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Then it should be easy to determine the RASM for Brightline. Just figure out how many seats per train and the number of miles per month (or whatever time period is standard). Then take the revenue per month and divide by the available seat miles per month. CASM would definitely involve proprietary numbers that Brightline does not report transparently. At this point, I am sure their CASM is much greater than their RASM. Other than airlines, who uses these numbers?


Railways use it in many places. It is a general passenger transportation thing I think. It is nothing new.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Railways use it in many places. It is a general passenger transportation thing I think. It is nothing new.


Not to open a can of worms or get away from Brightline, but are there RASM and CASM numbers available for Amtrak? I understand they have "unique" accounting practices in place.


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## west point

Has Brightline even come close to selling out their present trains? Do all their revenue trains have the same consist.? What is the capacity of these trains? If any revenue train set add a car(s) then we can know that ridership is much greater than pre Covid.


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## neroden

CASM's not usually reported at a route level, only at a whole-corporation level. Where Amtrak does report it more or less accurately. 

Part of the art of management in transportation is understanding when a high CASM vs. RASM means you want to expand to engage economies of scale, vs. when it means you want to remove weak branch routes, vs. when it means you should rearrange when your seats are available (scheduling), vs. when it means you should change market segment (pricing & amenities), vs. when it means you should reallocate resources between routes. 

Railroad managements have frequently made the wrong decision on those questions.


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## joelkfla

west point said:


> Has Brightline even come close to selling out their present trains? Do all their revenue trains have the same consist.? What is the capacity of these trains? If any revenue train set add a car(s) then we can know that ridership is much greater than pre Covid.


The trainsets are semi-permanently coupled. Each trainset is painted a different color, and each car has its position number painted on in large numerals, so no, they have not added cars. Each trainset has 1 Premium (BC) coach and 3 Smart (Economy) coaches. 1 of the Smart cars has a baggage section. Train capacity is 239.


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## joelkfla

Here it is!


----------



## Fenway

I have no doubt a Tampa/Lakeland/Disney/Orlando link would be viable - getting Pinellas County involved is not likely.


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## jis

west point said:


> Has Brightline even come close to selling out their present trains? Do all their revenue trains have the same consist.? What is the capacity of these trains? If any revenue train set add a car(s) then we can know that ridership is much greater than pre Covid.


Brightline uses fixed consists that are semi permanently coupled, like the Acelas.


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> The trainsets are semi-permanently coupled. Each trainset is painted a different color, and each car has its position number painted on in large numerals, so no, they have not added cars. Each trainset has 1 Premium (BC) coach and 3 Smart (Economy) coaches. 1 of the Smart cars has a baggage section. Train capacity is 239.


I don't think the car numbers are painted but I think they are vinyls.

So modifying the numbers should not be that much of a deal if spare vinyls are available.


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## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> I don't think the car numbers are painted but I think they are vinyls.
> 
> So modifying the numbers should not be that much of a deal if spare vinyls are available.


You're probably right.


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## jis

Some interesting developments in Brevard County (Space Coast) regarding a station in the County. Interesting to see they are now considering what ridership may get captured from Coastal Volusia and Flagler County by a potential station at Cocoa. Of course those numbers would also be needed as input to the revision of the deal with the Central Florida Turnpike Authority too.









Brightline land purchase could indicate future Cocoa station


More than 33 acres were purchased in 2021.




www.mynews13.com


----------



## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> Some interesting developments in Brevard County (Space Coast) regarding a station in the County. Interesting to see they are now considering what ridership may get captured from Coastal Volusia and Flagler County by a potential station at Cocoa. Of course those numbers would also be needed as input to the revision of the deal with the Central Florida Turnpike Authority too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline land purchase could indicate future Cocoa station
> 
> 
> More than 33 acres were purchased in 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mynews13.com


Seems odd that wasn't in the plans from the get-go. Why would you bypass Brevard County?


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## jis

PaTrainFan said:


> Seems odd that wasn't in the plans from the get-go. Why would you bypass Brevard County?


The short answer is money, or lack thereof.

This has been discussed several times before, however, it is worth presenting a short history of the effort to get a station in Brevard County again.

The original All Aboard Florida plan was for a four station service (Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando). It was not clear that even for this funding could be arranged. But even back then conversations took place about future possibilities. Brevard County has been working in the background with Brightline in station location selection and such. The tacit agreement always was that a station in Brevard County would be taken up after a successful and stable introduction of service to Orlando..

One must remember that this is not a government funded thing where you can hang every bell and whistle on the Christmas Tree from the get go and then go and twist the arms of the legislature to try to fund the whole bloated thing. There was no certainty until about four years back that anything would get built to Orlando at all.

Notwithstanding that, the County Council voted to engage with the then All Aboard Florida folks about seven years back on this and low key activity with full support of the Space Coast TPO has been going on since then. Now that Orlando is in sight I suspect there will be some motion on the Brevard County Station in three to five years. The fact that land acquisition is taking place is an indication that things are actually moving, which is a good thing.


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## PaTrainFan

jis said:


> The short answer is money, or lack thereof.
> 
> This has been discussed several times before, however, it is worth presenting a short history of the effort to get a station in Brevard County again.
> 
> The original All Aboard Florida plan was for a four station service (Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando). It was not clear that even for this funding could be arranged. But even back then conversations took place about future possibilities. Brevard County has been working in the background with Brightline in station location selection and such. The tacit agreement always was that a station in Brevard County would be taken up after a successful and stable introduction of service to Orlando..
> 
> One must remember that this is not a government funded thing where you can hang every bell and whistle on the Christmas Tree from the get go and then go and twist the arms of the legislature to try to fund the whole bloated thing. There was no certainty until about four years back that anything would get built to Orlando at all.
> 
> Notwithstanding that, the County Council voted to engage with the then All Aboard Florida folks about seven years back on this and low key activity with full support of the Space Coast TPO has been going on since then. Now that Orlando is in sight I suspect there will be some motion on the Brevard County Station in three to five years. The fact that land acquisition is taking place is an indication that things are actually moving, which is a good thing.


Good background. Thank you.


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## Brian_tampa

@jis and also doesn't Brightline have to complete a ridership study first to determine the impact to the toll revenue on the Beachline toll road? In the lease agreement with what is now CFX (nee OOCEA) it spells out that any station built in Brevard County would potentially impact revenue (and thus the bonds sold to build and maintain the highway), and therefore an impact fee would be added to each ticket sold between Brevard and Orlando (and possibly points west to Tampa I assume). Not sure if this is also the case for the FDOT (Turnpike Authority) section as well.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> @jis and also doesn't Brightline have to complete a ridership study first to determine the impact to the toll revenue on the Beachline toll road? In the lease agreement with what is now CFX (nee OOCEA) it spells out that any station built in Brevard County would potentially impact revenue (and thus the bonds sold to build and maintain the highway), and therefore an impact fee would be added to each ticket sold between Brevard and Orlando (and possibly points west to Tampa I assume). Not sure if this is also the case for the FDOT (Turnpike Authority) section as well.


Yes I mentioned that in my post above. That will determine the per ticket surcharge. I don’t think it will be a show stopper.


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## PaTrainFan

Here's a nicely done YouTube video on Brightline by HOUExplorer. His videos on all forms of mass transportation are each produced in very high quality.


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## jpakala

jis said:


> Yes I mentioned that in my post above. That will determine the per ticket surcharge. I don’t think it will be a show stopper.


It's outrageous that environmentally friendly transportation is required to help fund what is not.


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## Brian_tampa

jpakala said:


> It's outrageous that environmentally friendly transportation is required to help fund what is not.


In this case, Brightline is taking advantage of a right of way that is held by two entities in order to reach Orlando. The alternative was for Brightline to negotiate with private land owners between Orlando and the FECR tracks along the east coast. Both solutions have costs.

In the case of SR528 aka Beachline, the toll road authorities are required by law to protect the investors who bought the bonds that enabled the construction and maintenance of the toll road. This makes sense as Brightline is a recent addition to how people travel between areas served by the toll roads and will negatively impact revenue that pays for those bonds.

Why shouldn't Brightline pay a fair price to use someone else's property? Would you allow a tenant to not pay anything to make money from occupying and using land that you own?

Edit: It will potentially be the case for the lease of land alng I-4 between Orlando and Tampa. The State of Florida has invested in maintaining that land and should be compensated for its use. Why should a private for-profit entity such as Brightline benefit from what taxpayers here in Florida have paid for and maintained over the decades?


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## jpakala

Why should taxpayers pay hundreds of billions for climate damaging transportation? As to toll loss, who's to say the increase in population and incessant traffic increase will mean no significant toll revenue loss owing to Brightline? And the landuse footprint of rail is a fraction of that for highways. I would not object to paying taxes to increase rail transportation both passenger and freight.


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## daybeers

Brian_tampa said:


> In the case of SR528 aka Beachline, the toll road authorities are required by law to protect the investors who bought the bonds that enabled the construction and maintenance of the toll road. This makes sense as Brightline is a recent addition to how people travel between areas served by the toll roads and will negatively impact revenue that pays for those bonds.


Toll roads go bankrupt fairly often. Aside from the land costs and being a tenant etc, jpakala's point stands that the concept of efficient transportation subsidizing the least efficient transportation is ludicrous.


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## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> @jis and also doesn't Brightline have to complete a ridership study first to determine the impact to the toll revenue on the Beachline toll road? In the lease agreement with what is now CFX (nee OOCEA) it spells out that any station built in Brevard County would potentially impact revenue (and thus the bonds sold to build and maintain the highway), and therefore an impact fee would be added to each ticket sold between Brevard and Orlando (and possibly points west to Tampa I assume). Not sure if this is also the case for the FDOT (Turnpike Authority) section as well.


This concept seems tragically absurd to me.

When the interstates were built, nobody thought about levying a surcharge to compensate the railroads for their loss of revenue.

The airports and airlines weren't asked to pay either.


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## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> Why shouldn't Brightline pay a fair price to use someone else's property? Would you allow a tenant to not pay anything to make money from occupying and using land that you own?
> 
> Edit: It will potentially be the case for the lease of land alng I-4 between Orlando and Tampa. The State of Florida has invested in maintaining that land and should be compensated for its use. Why should a private for-profit entity such as Brightline benefit from what taxpayers here in Florida have paid for and maintained over the decades?



The good taxpaxers of Florida did not put up the money with the purpose of supporting the profitability of any one particular enterprise, but with the purpose of providing a transportation system and relieving congestion for the public good. It seems to me that Brightline is doing precisely that, so it is precisely what the money was promised for (well ... almost precisely).


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> Slightly off topic: Studies say that radar is preferrable over buried loops, for both accuracy and durability. I was surprised to read that loops are more likely to give a false indication for a vehicle in the adjoining lane.


Good point.

I also think radar is more likely to detect non-vehicle intrusions such as pedestrians or large wildlife. Also bicycles, motorcycles etc may, depending on the situation, be too small to trigger the buried loops but would show up on proximity radar.


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> The trainsets are semi-permanently coupled. Each trainset is painted a different color, and each car has its position number painted on in large numerals, so no, they have not added cars. Each trainset has 1 Premium (BC) coach and 3 Smart (Economy) coaches. 1 of the Smart cars has a baggage section. Train capacity is 239.


There are more ways to adapt capacity than by switching in and out additional cars (which, as others have said, is complicated for the Brightline consists).

For example, schedules could be adapted with extra trains being put on at times of peak demand (if sufficient spare equipment is available). This might actually be preferable to longer trains as it reduces the time to wait for the next train.


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## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> The good taxpaxers of Florida did not put up the money with the purpose of supporting the profitability of any one particular enterprise, but with the purpose of providing a transportation system and relieving congestion for the public good. It seems to me that Brightline is doing precisely that, so it is precisely what the money was promised for (well ... almost precisely).


I probably should have mentioned the elephant in the room regarding the payments to the toll road authorities here: politics. By agreeing to these payments, although it looks bad on the surface, Brightline is able to maintain widespread support from the State government. If they were perceived as not paying their fair share, then it would have been that much more difficult for them when dealing with the legislature here on other issues important to Brightline. It also allows them to maintain their stance that they do not receive public funding or subsidies, even though it is clear they at least indirectly benefit from government programs.


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## jis

In the past I have spoken, quite informally, to some extent, with people at Brightline regarding this matter of surcharge for using the tollway RoW. From the perspective of the two people that I spoke to the issue was stark. Without agreeing to that there would have been no access to that RoW, and without that there would have been no service between Cocoa and Orlando, and without that there would have been no Brightline. In the words of one of them, you keep your eye on the ball and make the best deals that you can to get there.

In other words - it is the way it is in the current environment even though it may suck a lot. Brightline has been a "touch and go" affair several times on the way to where it is now. And it is still not quite out of the woods until they actually break even on service.


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## Brian_tampa

And to add to what Jis said, Brightline *has* to work with FDOT and other state and local agencies.

For the phase 3 extension to Tampa, FDOT and Brightline have worked together to incorporate Brightline's track and infrastructure into the I-4 corridor ROW. This is no small feat as there are major construction projects along I-4 that FDOT has planned over the next 10+ years. In the past 5 years FDOT has embarked on at least 3 projects along I-4 that will directly benefit Brightline. They have rebuilt the SR559 bridge and interchange at I-4 that includes a special span for passenger rail in the median; they are currently rebuilding the CR557 interchange at I-4 including similar rail features as at SR559; and they are currently replacing the CSX single track bridge over I-4 at Lakeland with a double track long span bridge which will permit Brightline to pass underneath at grade level. This also means that Brightline will not have to build an expensive elevated structure to cross over the CSX tracks. These projects are all state funded. So in effect, Brightline has already benefited and any future toll diversion fees will be canceled out by the additional money they will not have to spend on phase 3 due to these projects.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> There are more ways to adapt capacity than by switching in and out additional cars (which, as others have said, is complicated for the Brightline consists).
> 
> For example, schedules could be adapted with extra trains being put on at times of peak demand (if sufficient spare equipment is available). This might actually be preferable to longer trains as it reduces the time to wait for the next train.


Apropos this issue, I think they have some room to play with. They are starting service with 1tph each way. Track capacity wise, given all the single track segments between Cocoa and Orlando, they may be able to go upto 4tph definitely without affecting end to end running time I speculate. But with 3+ hours running time they will need 4+4 = 8 consists to maintain hourly service, so they won't have a lot of leeway in rolling stock to add significant service. Afterall they will need some PM/BO flexibility too. But' we'll see how things develop of course.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Apropos this issue, I think they have some room to play with. They are starting service with 1tph each way. Track capacity wise, given all the single track segments between Cocoa and Orlando, they may be able to go upto 4tph definitely without affecting end to end running time I speculate. But with 3+ hours running time they will need 4+4 = 8 consists to maintain hourly service, so they won;t have a lot of leeway in rolling stock to add significant service. Afterall they will need some PM/BO flexibility too. But' we'll see how things develop of course.


But they have said in the past that they plan to increase the length of trains as ridership builds between MIA & MCO. They wouldn't be changing the length on the fly, but just adding cars once and keeping them inline. That seems more likely than adding frequency.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> But they have said in the past that they plan to increase the length of trains as ridership builds between MIA & MCO. They wouldn't be changing the length on the fly, but just adding cars once and keeping them inline. That seems more likely than adding frequency.


Yeah, I agree. I think they will first grow trains to their full 10 car complement before contemplating additional frequency. Although I won't be surprised if they start with less than hourly frequency and grow to hourly over a period of a year or two during the startup phase.

I was just pointing out the parameters that play into increasing frequency.


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## west point

jis said:


> I was just pointing out the parameters that play into increasing frequency.


You bring up several questions. Increasing frequency will mean more hiring of T&E. Exactly how is Brightline crewed? That includes is there an actual conductor and does that person also have other duties? How is on board ticking confirmed? Are there any operating openings advertised and if so, where? Since the planned time to MCO for one-way trip is about 3 hours either T&E will do a roundtrip or maybe1-1/2 RTs?


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## McIntyre2K7

Brightline was recently awarded a grant up to $15,875,000 in federal funding from the United States Department of Transportation (USDOT) Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements (CRISI) Grant Program to support the engineering activities and environmental approvals for the Orlando to Tampa section. 

It does say that the route would be double tracked. Why can't they just double track the whole section from Orlando to Tampa? 









CENTRAL FLORIDA RECEIVES FEDERAL GRANT FOR TAM


Brightline ticket booking




www.gobrightline.com


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## jis

McIntyre2K7 said:


> It does say that the route would be double tracked. Why can't they just double track the whole section from Orlando to Tampa?


Usually they design the ROW for double track but lay single track in some sections to save money. Afterall one does not really require double track to run one or two tph in each direction. They can fill in track when traffic increases, when there will be money from revenue available to do so instead of needing interest bearing bonds and such.


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## Brian_tampa

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Brightline was recently awarded a grant up to $15,875,000 in federal funding from the United States Department of Transportation (USDOT) Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements (CRISI) Grant Program to support the engineering activities and environmental approvals for the Orlando to Tampa section.
> 
> It does say that the route would be double tracked. Why can't they just double track the whole section from Orlando to Tampa?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CENTRAL FLORIDA RECEIVES FEDERAL GRANT FOR TAM
> 
> 
> Brightline ticket booking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gobrightline.com


I recall that FDOT reported that due to future toll lanes between Lakeland and Tampa along I-4, there will be a short several mile stretch of single track ROW in the median near Plant City that cannot ever be expanded to double tracks.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I recall that FDOT reported that due to future toll lanes between Lakeland and Tampa along I-4, there will be a short several mile stretch of single track ROW in the median near Plant City that cannot ever be expanded to double tracks.


Couldn't they double deck the rail track? Or would that be a bridge too far for the FDOT? That is something they do in short segments in India where there is no way nohow they can get a wide enough easement through densely occupied areas.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Couldn't they double deck the rail track? Or would that be a bridge too far for the FDOT? That is something they do in short segments in India where there is no way nohow they can get a wide enough easement through densely occupied areas.


I suppose they could do that, but a more reasonable design would be a long viaduct similar to the Selmon/Crosstown Expressway elevated express lanes in the median here in Tampa. They could even build the piers to support 2 bridge span structures but only install one span at first! The section in question is mainly east of Plant City where the parallel frontage roads are adjacent to the outside shoulder lanes with only a concrete barrier wall separating them at this time. The median is not so wide either at this point.

There have been rumors of Tampa Bay RTA, or whatever they are called now, looking into future commuter rail service on the same tracks. Although the CSX A-Line would be much more useful. But we know how CSX is towards any additional pax trains on their primary lines. The A-Line west of Auburndale is such a route.


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## Brian_tampa

Found this overview of the proposed Sunshine Corridor on another forum tonight. It is presented by FDOT and is dated May 24, 2022. Link

it says that up to $3B in grants will be applied for with the non-federal matching funds coming from Brightline's expected $3B investment in their line from Tampa to Disney.

This web page also has route information for the new corridor around Orlando as well as links to previous Sunrail and HSR proposals for service to MCO.

I have attached a PDF version as well for easier display


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## west point

How many sidings from the end of 2 main tracks at the Orlando utilities track underpass and Cocoa? Single main track to Tampa no problem at present IMO.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Couldn't they double deck the rail track? Or would that be a bridge too far for the FDOT? That is something they do in short segments in India where there is no way nohow they can get a wide enough easement through densely occupied areas.


In densely populated areas the situation is different as a bridge may be cheaper than compensating land owners for their real estate. I think this sort of thing exists in Japan as well, but only for very short stretches to work around other obstructions. Something similar exists in Spain, for example, where on the southern approach to Barcelona Sants the high speed line runs in a shallow tunnel below the regular line, again because I suppose this was cheaper or less disruptive than acquiring the adjacent land, which is densely populated with big buildings built right up onto the edge of the ROW.

But under other conditions it is still extremely expensive and hence difficult to justify. Furthermore, if you wish to equal the capability and functionality of a longer regular double-track formation you also need crossovers every so often to provide flexibility. On a double-deck line that would require up and down ramps which again would add to engineering complexity and maybe not be appreciated by the adjacent highway authority on whose ROW they would have to encroach.

I guess Brightline would prefer to stick with single track as long as humanely possible and only have this discussion when they have no alternative.


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## jis

The issue of keeping easements available as I-4 is built out is still relevant even if nothing is built immediately.


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## Brian_tampa

On I-75 starting in Pasco County North of Tampa to Sarasota County ending near North Port in FDOT district 7, the local district people told me they were maintaining a transit envelope in the median even with planned highway expansion projects over the next 15-20 years. This could be used by a future version of Brightline or by a local commuter rail/bus system. So FDOT is planning for the longer term future. I think it was back in 1992 that FDOT first came up with their new standards regarding interstate highway design to include transit envelopes in the ROW when designing new expansion projects. I-4 was the first Florida interstate highway to have this implemented on with their reconstruction projects in the late 1990s.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> On I-75 starting in Pasco County North of Tampa to Sarasota County ending near North Port in FDOT district 7, the local district people told me they were maintaining a transit envelope in the median even with planned highway expansion projects over the next 15-20 years. This could be used by a future version of Brightline or by a local commuter rail/bus system. So FDOT is planning for the longer term future. I think it was back in 1992 that FDOT first came up with their new standards regarding interstate highway design to include transit envelopes in the ROW when designing new expansion projects. I-4 was the first Florida interstate highway to have this implemented on with their reconstruction projects in the late 1990s.


That is what I thought, which of course leaves me a bit puzzled about the single track only easement situation.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> That is what I thought, which of course leaves me a bit puzzled about the single track only easement situation.


I-4 is a different issue than I-75 as it was originally built between the late 1950s and early 1970s. So the ROW is narrower in general compared to I-75 which seems to have a much wider ROW especially from Tampa south to Ft Myers. I-75 around Tampa and south, IIRC, was built-out in the 1980s.

Of course the new DOT standards couldn't alleviate all of the old bad design decisions made decade's earlier.

Since I-4 has existed for almost 60 years over a lot of its length, there were inevitably some areas that the ROW became encroached on over the years, such as near Plant City. I-75 mostly does not suffer this problem. I-75 does have some long bridges over coastal rivers and bays though that present their own issues with fitting in a rail bridge alongside them!


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## Qapla

Interesting reading:


> The portion of I-75 from Tampa northward was a part of the original 1955 Interstate Highway plans, with I-75's southern terminus at I-4's current western terminus
> Length 470.808 mi[1] (757.692 km)
> Existed 1956–present





> Construction on I-4 began in 1958; the first segment opened in 1959, and the entire highway was completed in 1965
> Length 132.298 mi[1][2] (212.913 km)
> Existed 1959–present



I understand that there is a lot of work going on with I-4 ... some of it looks like they are moving lanes to provide a wider median.


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## west point

Wife hates I-4


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## Qapla




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## daybeers

So, I'm confused. I haven't followed Brightline's funding the whole time. It's privately operated, but not completely privately funded since they're getting grants?


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## cirdan

Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?

If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.


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## cirdan

Talking about there being g only space in the interstate median for a single track in locations, didn't the original Florifda High Speed project also envisage using this median? Would that have been single track too?


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## John Bredin

cirdan said:


> Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?
> 
> If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.


Nope, a grant is not a loan and is not repaid.


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## NES28

daybeers said:


> So, I'm confused. I haven't followed Brightline's funding the whole time. It's privately operated, but not completely privately funded since they're getting grants?


To summarize the situation, Brightline was ready to pay for the link from Orlando Airport and Disney, essentially on a nonstop routing that did not go by any logical places to stop. Lots of people in both the public and private sectors wanted them to use a routing that would stop at the Convention center (close to Universal Studios). This routing will cost significantly more. Agreement has been reached to have a public agency construct this segment with Sunrail (commuter operator) to provide local service and Brightline to operate on trackage rights. Federal government has just announced a grant to pay part of the cost of of designing the alignment and stations. This will allow a more accurate cost estimate.


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## NES28

How hard would it be to construct a rail link extending Sunrail from Sanford along an I-4 routing to a new connection to FEC at Daytona creating an Orlando-Daytona-St. Augustine-Jacksonville route?


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## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> Talking about there being g only space in the interstate median for a single track in locations, didn't the original Florifda High Speed project also envisage using this median? Would that have been single track too?


Back in 2009 the plans for HSR did have 2 tracks for the full length along I-4. However, since then there have been several iterations of the long term Tampa Bay area interstate plans. Also, back in 2009 the HSR project would have had a much bigger source of funding to build their planned infrastructure. So if the I-4 ROW needed to be widened and take private property to do that (which was the case with their design), it would have happened. Brightline, however, has tried to avoid having to buy private land and has a much smaller budget.


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## daybeers

@NES28 Thanks for the great explanation! That was very clear.


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## jis

NES28 said:


> Federal government has just announced a grant to pay part of the cost of of designing the alignment and stations. This will allow a more accurate cost estimate.


Here is more on the specifics of the grant:









SunRail, Brightline, Central Florida get key federal rail grant


A $15.8 million federal grant will be matched with an equal amount by Brightline to evolve a concrete plan for Orlando-to-Tampa rail.




www.orlandosentinel.com





However, this specific CRISI Grant is not exclusively for use of the Sunshine Corridor within Orange County. It is for the entire Brightline Phase 3 OIA - Tampa Project. It is a grant that requires matching funding from Brightline. As it is a grant there is nothing to pay back, and hence there is no financial risk to Brightline beyond providing the matching funds, which is actually a pretty small portion of its original planned budget for Phase 3.

Quoting from the Railway Age article on the CRISI Grants....


> *13. Brightline (Fla.) – Tampa to Orlando High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Project: *Up to $15,875,000 will be used to advance preliminary engineering activities to support Phase 3 of the Brightline system: a 67-mile extension from the Orlando International Airport to Tampa, Fla., mostly within the right-of-way of I-4 in central Florida. Brightline currently operates from Miami to West Palm Beach, Fla. (Phase 1); its West Palm Beach to Orlando segment (Phase 2) is expected to be complete by the end of 2022 and carry passengers in 2023. The project qualifies for the statutorily required set-aside for projects eligible under 49 U.S.C. § 22907(c)(2) that support the development of new intercity passenger rail service routes including alignments for existing routes. Brightline, a privately owned intercity passenger service provider, will provide a 50% match.



At the end of the day the Sunshine Corridor proposal within Orange County depends critically on being able to snag very significant grants, maybe to the tune of even close to half a billion dollars from the feds. Without that this is unlikely to be implemented unless the funding shortfall is back filled by the local large corporate beneficiaries. 

The Deming proposed one cent sales tax can only go so far, but it also forms a critical funding component, since the feds will probably not consider an application a serious one unless CFRC somehow resolves the ongoing operating subsidy mess that exists right now. Afterall the risk of Sunrail failing to operate is significantly higher at this time than that of Brightline failing to operate.


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## Brian_tampa

I might add, the SR417 route as far as I know is not completely off the table. Brightline had recently started an EIS update to that route. Maybe Brightline is holding that option available as a stick to the I Drive and Universal supporters as well as SunRail (government sponsors) to get things done quickly. I doubt that Brightline would end phase 3 expansion plans because Orlando area groups could not get their stuff together for the I Drive people. The SR417 route is a billion dollars cheaper. So IMO, Brightline will get to Tampa either way.

Edit: I forgot that Brightline appears to have promised to provide the local matching funds for any federal grant awarded by committing the estimated $3B they will spend on the phase 3 project. (See my previous post from a few days ago regarding an FDOT presentation) So now it is in the hands of local governments to act.


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## Brian_tampa

This is from the FDOT presentation, and might help explain where things are headed as far as funding goes:

Project Costs and Funding

Up to $3 billion would be sought in Federal Railroad
Administration (FRA) Intercity Rail Funding provided in the
Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act

Brightline’s capital investments in the segment from Disney
Springs to Tampa (approximately $3 billion) would be non-
federal match for FRA funding—so no state funding would be
required for the Brightline intercity service

This project could reduce local and state funding from 50% -
100% for SunRail expansion capital costs

Brightline would pay a lease fee for intercity passenger rail
rights for access to the Sunshine Corridor segment from
Orlando International Airport to Disney to support corridor
operations and maintenance and SunRail operations

A separate New Starts Application may be required for SunRail
capital elements (i.e., trains, stations, track and maintenance
facilities) - State provides half the non-federal share


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## jis

At present I give it at best a 50-50 chance at best of landing all that federal funding.

There is no mention of where the money is going to come for Surail's ongoing operating subsidy.

Someone may be smoking something potent.

Don't you find it odd that a piece of infrastructure will be built substantially using federal grants requiring matching money from Brightline with a few hundred million, if that thrown in by a few others, and the Brightline will have the pleasure of leasing that for operating their trains? But hey, this *is* Florida afterall...


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> At present I give it at best a 50-50 chance at best of landing all that federal funding.
> 
> There is no mention of where the money is going to come for Surail's ongoing operating subsidy.
> 
> Someone may be smoking something potent.
> 
> Don't you find it odd that a piece of infrastructure will be built substantially using federal grants requiring matching money from Brightline with a few hundred million, if that thrown in by a few others, and the Brightline will have the pleasure of leasing that for operating their trains? But hey, this *is* Florida afterall...


Well....
Been here in Florida for 25 years. So yeah..

I fully expect that Brightline will come out of this not spending anymore for the I Drive route than for the SR-417 route. That's how it is here (and most places tbh).

I suspect Brightline will pay their fair share to lease the line. However, I am like you by questioning the source of the operating subsidy for SunRail. I will believe it once I see a commitment by all parties to the SunRail train. 

Like you say, it is Florida...


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## west point

Wonder what Brightline is going to have to pay for trackage rights from airport to the wye of 'Sun rail. CSX coal trains on the Orlando Utilities commision tracks will have almost all wear and tear of the track. Depending on who has the last word OUC or CSX will go a loong way to determine trackage rights costs.


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## Caesar La Rock

For the FDOT presentation, that'll be something if all goes well. I'm not someone that hopes for things, but I hope some sanity is left in this state, even when I know there isn't. I've been living in Orlando since 1995 and I've heard all the promises and plans proposed over the last 27 years (as a kid I read A LOT of newspapers and watched the news, thanks dad lol). 

Lynx doubling its bus fleet (come November they might get their chance, another topic and does involve Sunrail too with that penny sales tax). The light rail project (thanks Universal and the voters) and the Florida high speed rail. There maybe some that I missed, but those three are the ones that stick out the most for me.

If all goes smooth, I'll have to buy a bottle of wine. It'll be the few times Florida has done something that didn't warrant me to put a hole in the wall of my house with my fist....


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## Brian_tampa

Brian_tampa said:


> Well....
> Been here in Florida for 25 years. So yeah..
> 
> I fully expect that Brightline will come out of this not spending anymore for the I Drive route than for the SR-417 route. That's how it is here (and most places tbh).
> 
> I suspect Brightline will pay their fair share to lease the line. However, I am like you by questioning the source of the operating subsidy for SunRail. I will believe it once I see a commitment by all parties to the SunRail train.
> 
> Like you say, it is Florida...


I will add that perhaps Brightline has recognized that whatever fees it pays to use the new route will be more than made up for with increased revenue from the Universal/I-Drive station? I would imagine that most potential Brightline riders who are also visiting Orlando for the theme parks won't be staying inside Disney World.

For people like me, a stop very near I-Drive would be good as I-Drive does have really good public transportation along the road, whereas the previously proposed single station stop at Disney Springs would have been inconvenient for a lot of people.


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## jis

west point said:


> Wonder what Brightline is going to have to pay for trackage rights from airport to the wye of 'Sun rail. CSX coal trains on the Orlando Utilities commision tracks will have almost all wear and tear of the track. Depending on who has the last word OUC or CSX will go a loong way to determine trackage rights costs.


That trackage will be owned by CFRC or Brightline. CSX will just run their occasional coal train on one of the tracks. There will be multiple track in that ROW. Even the original Sunrail to Airport project had that track segment being bought out by FDOT and dispatched from DeBary Control Center. So CSX will not be a player. Besides they want to get rid of track ownership around Orlando and Miami as much as they can anyway.



> How many sidings from the end of 2 main tracks at the Orlando utilities track underpass and Cocoa? Single main track to Tampa no problem at present IMO.


No sidings. Only combination of 1MT and 2MT with high speed equilateral turnouts connecting 1MT sections to 2MT sections.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> That trackage will be owned by CFRC or Brightline. CSX will just run their occasional coal train on one of the tracks. There will be multiple track in that ROW. Even the original Sunrail to Airport project had that track segment being bought out by FDOT and dispatched from DeBary Control Center. So CSX will not be a player. Besides they want to get rid of track ownership around Orlando and Miami as much as they can anyway.


Since the Sunshine Corridor route will be all double track, I will assume that new double track exclusively for SunRail and Brightline trains will be built to the north of the OUC railroad track (my understanding is that CSX has trackage rights and maintains the tracks under contract with OUC, but doesn't own the tracks or land). Brightline already has a lease signed with OUC that allows them to build on and use OUC ROW and tracks. A single crossover to the existing OUC track near the wye will allow for operations from the existing SunRail route. Although a second connecting crossover (possibly a double crossover) along the CFRC (former CSX A-Line) track to the north of the wye will improve operations overall.

The interesting design problem to solve is how to get to the Taft-Vineland Road east-west ROW. I think they will have to build a bridge over the CFRC mainline tracks plus the two yard tracks for industry along the west side of the CFRC ROW near the wye.

Edit: Brightline has a lease agreement with OUC I should say. I haven't heard if it has been signed yet. Also, SunRail AFAIK does not have an agreement yet with OUC to use their ROW or tracks.


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## toddinde

cirdan said:


> Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?
> 
> If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.


A grant doesn’t get repaid. It has conditions that must be fulfilled, but if the conditions are satisfied, the money never has to be repaid.


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## VentureForth

FYI - Track is laid, and rail train led by GATX 2433(?) makes it all the way to the East toll plaza along 528. Rail is sitting on an empty roadbed for another 6 or so miles towards the East leaving around less than 10 miles with nothing on it yet. Double tracking on two major grade crossings should be complete this month (Eau Gallie & Sarno). Lot to do still, but the work is moving along!


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## NES28

jis said:


> There is no mention of where the money is going to come for Surail's ongoing operating subsidy.


The proposed 1% sales tax should be able to handle this pretty well. 

Sounds as if the pieces are falling into place nicely.


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## jis

NES28 said:


> The proposed 1% sales tax should be able to handle this pretty well.
> 
> Sounds as if the pieces are falling into place nicely.


That is a definite maybe for now. The proposed tax is for general transport and not dedicated to Sunrail. So who knows how much Sunrail will get from it and how much will remain available after the shortfalls in the current system is addressed. But it is a good start.


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## west point

When all the present proposed Sun Rail service is under construction then the rail route to the NW needs implementation. That is going to be much more difficult with all the freight service on the line.


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## VentureForth

NES28 said:


> The proposed 1% sales tax should be able to handle this pretty well.
> 
> Sounds as if the pieces are falling into place nicely.


That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.

Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.


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## MARC Rider

VentureForth said:


> That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.
> 
> Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.


As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....


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## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....


I'm not that pessimistic. As population increases and more and more areas are being built on, huge swatches of Florida are being urbanized by stealth. And in an urban environment the argument for rail and other forms of mass transit becomes more and more unavoidable by the day. This is why we are seeing Brightline among others, but also the various commuter rail schemes that have appeared over the last decades plus those that are still to come or be extended.


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## VentureForth

MARC Rider said:


> As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....


So - I'm going to appear to do a 180. I don't think that I'm being hypocritical here. The problem when government runs transit is that they do it as inexpensively as possible using freight lines that a) are in industrial more than commercial or residential zones, b) subject to the whim of the property owners, all therefore serving a small portion of the population.

I have advocated a light/commuter/mono rail system in Orlando since I recognized there was a congestion issue back in the 90s the first time I lived here. The solution at the time was rather to build more toll roads. I-4 has been in a perpetual state of construction since. A light rail along Central Florida Parkway, I-Drive, Westwood would have eased a LOT of tourism traffic through the visitors corridor.

The desire of the city to route Brightline through that area is the first step that should have been taken decades ago. 

But look at the cities with the highest public transportation - Tokyo, London, New York, Chicago .... traffic is STILL a twisted mess, and rail transit hasn't ever SOLVED the problem.

You will ALWAYS need that last mile...or 10...or 20...


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## MARC Rider

cirdan said:


> I'm not that pessimistic. As population increases and more and more areas are being built on, huge swatches of Florida are being urbanized by stealth. And in an urban environment the argument for rail and other forms of mass transit becomes more and more unavoidable by the day. This is why we are seeing Brightline among others, but also the various commuter rail schemes that have appeared over the last decades plus those that are still to come or be extended.


I'd like to be as optimistic as you are, but consider that in the Northeast Corridor, the California metropolises and Chicagoland have high taxes, are very urbanized, yet only a fraction of the population there has practical access to the existing rail infrastructure, even if it is more extensive than it is in places like Florida and urban Texas. I suppose there's a possibility that as these states become more urbanized and more urban voters demand the services and infrastructure needed for urban areas, the electorate may become more supportive of higher taxes and support of public transportation. But most people, even in the NEC, seem to be fine with driving around in heavy traffic. Anything rather than to have to share personal space with the riffraff.


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## VentureForth

MARC Rider said:


> But most people, even in the NEC, seem to be fine with driving around in heavy traffic. Anything rather than to have to share personal space with the riffraff.


Why do we have more riffraff in the US than we have in other civilized countries? I would rather be on a packed train in Tokyo than a half-full subway in NYC.


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## MARC Rider

VentureForth said:


> I have advocated a light/commuter/mono rail system in Orlando since I recognized there was a congestion issue back in the 90s the first time I lived here. The solution at the time was rather to build more toll roads. I-4 has been in a perpetual state of construction since. A light rail along Central Florida Parkway, I-Drive, Westwood would have eased a LOT of tourism traffic through the visitors corridor.


Oh, just to be clear, when I say "toll roads," I don't mean tolled freeways, I mean one could put tolls on the 4-6 lane arterial streets lined with strip development that infest our towns and cities across the country. Using open road tolling technology, it shouldn't even slow traffic down -- that's not needed, as the current traffic signals do a good enough job of that. Oh, and another thing, there shouldn't be any more free parking anywhere, at least in towns and cities, and any place that starts getting as lot of traffic should be designated as a town or city. 

As the sprawled-out development becomes economically untenable, then the opportunity arises to build more compact towns and cities where transportation needs can be better met through walking, cycling, and public transportation, and use of the automobile is restricted to weekend drives in the country and vacation road trips.


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## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> But look at the cities with the highest public transportation - Tokyo, London, New York, Chicago .... traffic is STILL a twisted mess, and rail transit hasn't ever SOLVED the problem.



I think in places like London (at least in the central area), public transit has solved the problem in as far as that congestion has becomes irrelevant because most people don't drive there anyway. Even the buses are slowly getting reserved lanes and other priorities put in that lead to better and more reliable performance, and helping fill in the gaps between the stations, so you are rarely more than 100 yards from some form of useful public transportation.


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## MARC Rider

VentureForth said:


> Why do we have more riffraff in the US than we have in other civilized countries? I would rather be on a packed train in Tokyo than a half-full subway in NYC.


That hasn't been my experience in riding New York subways, at least not since the late 1980s. My impression of my fellow Americans is that we are incredibly snobbish, and consider all sorts of people who look and dress "different" as "riffraff" who aren't really riffraff. Added to that is the fact that post World War 2, Americans, even those of modest means, had the wealth to act on their snobbishness, and so now we're all in cars.

By the way, there's plenty of "riffraff" on the road, as the surge of overly aggressive and reckless driving so well demonstrates.


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## Qapla

VentureForth said:


> That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.
> 
> Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.



Ah! to return to 6.5% ... we have had 7% in our county for many, many years. Duval county (JAX) is 7.5% as well as smaller counties like Clay, Bradford and Putnam. While Jax has some public transportation, those smaller counties do not.

Likewise, why do property owners who don't have children have to so heavily support the Public School system through property taxes - isn't that "punishment"? The same could be said of those who don't drive - yet some of their sales taxes go to the road system.

Instead of complaining about the portion of tax being used to improve transportation (public or road) why not get rid of the "pet projects" that cost millions and only benefit a few?

Expanding rail should be a statewide endeavor and come ahead of widening roads that don't really need it.


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## VentureForth

Disney tried to solve this with his original envisioning of EPCOT - Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. But even that expansive vision could only support between 30-50,000 people in an essentially socialist society where everyone had a job, and when you retired, you moved out to make room for others. Other than that aspect of it, Disney had a TON of transportation solutions envisioned, but the foresight was never realized. In fact, Disney's latest transportation system - the popular Skyliner (which I enjoy) employs the same technology that they removed from Tokyo Disneyland, Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom in the 90s (the Sky*way*) ostensibly due to it's low capacity and high maintenance costs. Even the monorail never developed into more than a gimmick to get people from the parking lot to the main gate and Epcot (though I suspect the monorail sees more passengers daily than Sunrail).


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## VentureForth

Qapla said:


> Instead of complaining about the portion of tax being used to improve transportation (public or road) why not get rid of the "pet projects" that cost millions and only benefit a few?
> 
> Expanding rail should be a statewide endeavor and come ahead of widening roads that don't really need it.


Isn't Sunrail _exactly _a pet project that cost millions and only benefit a few?


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A gentle reminder that this thread is about Brightline. If you wish to discuss general taxing policy and transit start another thread please.


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## jis

I found this Environmental Study document done in 2018 for what then was called Sunrail Phase III. The relevance of it in the Brightline thread is that it has a pretty detailed description of the routing from OIA to the CFRC line which now forms part of the compromise routing that is proposed for Brightline between OIA and WDW via the Convention Center.

3515-2018-05 Project Development and Environmental Study (PDF)


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## jis

I-Drive businesses of course like the new direction that Brightline is taking ...









Brightline Orlando-Tampa extension excites I-Drive business owners


Owners say the stop will create new foot traffic in the area




www.baynews9.com


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> I-Drive businesses of course like the new direction that Brightline is taking ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline Orlando-Tampa extension excites I-Drive business owners
> 
> 
> Owners say the stop will create new foot traffic in the area
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.baynews9.com


Brightline will need to manage the passengers from MCO to Disney Springs so that they don't block out through traffic passenger - ie: those who want to go from Miami to DS or I-Drive or from those two stops to Tampa, etc. If anyone needs to travel just between MCO and DS, it needs to be on Sunrail.


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## CCC1007

VentureForth said:


> Brightline will need to manage the passengers from MCO to Disney Springs so that they don't block out through traffic passenger - ie: those who want to go from Miami to DS or I-Drive or from those two stops to Tampa, etc. If anyone needs to travel just between MCO and DS, it needs to be on Sunrail.


Easy enough if you offer a shuttle train MCO-Tampa or MCO-DS.


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## VentureForth

Sunrail needs to be that shuttle, and they need to charge $10 per person. That will keep it under the cost of an Uber and better revenue than the existing line.


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## Brian_tampa

Wes Edens, the owner of Brightline was interviewed by the Washington Post today. Here is the link to the transcribed interview:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-live/2022/06/07/transcript-transportation-all/

It is free to access by creating an account with the paper here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/subscribe/signin?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-live/2022/06/07/transcript-transportation-all/&nid=top_pb_signin&arcId=D6RTAJIPOZGTXEVPHUTIUL4WQQ&account_location=ONSITE_HEADER_ARTICLE&itid=nav_sign_in

I have attached a pdf version of the transcripted interview. Mr. Edens is bullish on service to Orlando starting by Christmas 2022. We shall see!


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## McIntyre2K7

Brian_tampa said:


> I have attached a pdf version of the transcripted interview. Mr. Edens is bullish on service to Orlando starting by Christmas 2022. We shall see!



I hope this does happen. I hope someone who is an executive at Brightline follows college football closely. Let's just say if Miami (FL) becomes bowl eligible but doesn't qualify for a New Year's Bowl. Maybe Brightline finds a way to convince the "Cheez It" or the "VBRO Citrus Bowl" committees to have the hurricanes play a game in Orlando. Then advertise a bowl game train that would take people from Miami to Orlando. Just have a shuttle running from MCO to the Citrus Bowl.


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## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> Florida Department of Transportation - I4 and SR 557 Interchange Design in Polk County, Florida
> 
> 
> 
> links to the Polk County CR557 @ I-4 interchange project web page and the FDOT wildlife crossing video.
> 
> The new interchange will have 2 roundabouts at each end of the CR557 overpass. It will also be built to the I-4 Ultimate design standard. This standard includes HSR in the median at this location.
> 
> The new wildlife crossing, which is really needed in this area, will be immediately to the east of the interchange. Between CR557 and US27 is the last really remote and somewhat wild section of land along I-4 (edit: at least west of Orlando, not sure of east of DeBary). This wildlife crossing is critical for the Florida panther and bear populations to grow and expand territory. As the video says, there are numerous wildlife crossing in Southwest and South Central Florida already built.
> 
> Brightline was required to build a wildlife crossing along SR528 west of the St John's River Bridge as well.



Man, I thought diverging diamond interchanges were bad enough. The guys designing this monstrosity must be smoking something.


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## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....


A selling point for the sales tax is that it applies equally to tourists.


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## west point

Christmas 2022 seems to be highly unlikely. that would be great. seems that it will take 2 more months to connect Orlando to Cocoa. Then Ballasting and surfacing and settling track takes time. Then FEC tracks are not complete. But the real impediment will be all the Bridge replacements. When will all the bridges become 2 main track?

Then you have FRA certification of 110 MPH Palm Beach - Cocoa. Then 125 MPH Cocoa to Orlaando. It may be though Brightline could start slower service say 80 MPH? Then you have training all the new engineers, conductors that pppprobably just being hired. The proposed 3 hour enroute only allows for 1 or 1- 1/2 Round trips. Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?

All my Orlando relations are looking forward for service especially having to go to MIA or MIA airport. Gasoline prices may also have an effect.


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## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> That hasn't been my experience in riding New York subways, at least not since the late 1980s. My impression of my fellow Americans is that we are incredibly snobbish, and consider all sorts of people who look and dress "different" as "riffraff" who aren't really riffraff. Added to that is the fact that post World War 2, Americans, even those of modest means, had the wealth to act on their snobbishness, and so now we're all in cars.


I wouldn't necessarily use the term riff-raff, but it's not just about public transportation but any public space really. In my experience/impression you are far more likely to be approached by a panhandler of some description in a public space in the USA than in Europe. Or maybe that's just my personal impression, and I've been to all the wrong places? Of course in my experience mostly such people are not aggressive or mean and will back off and leave you alone if you indicate you are not interested. But I think maybe if you are a vulnerable person travelling alone you may feel threatened by them.


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## VentureForth

west point said:


> Christmas 2022 seems to be highly unlikely. that would be great. seems that it will take 2 more months to connect Orlando to Cocoa. Then Ballasting and surfacing and settling track takes time. Then FEC tracks are not complete. But the real impediment will be all the Bridge replacements. When will all the bridges become 2 main track?
> 
> Then you have FRA certification of 110 MPH Palm Beach - Cocoa. Then 125 MPH Cocoa to Orlaando. It may be though Brightline could start slower service say 80 MPH? Then you have training all the new engineers, conductors that pppprobably just being hired. The proposed 3 hour enroute only allows for 1 or 1- 1/2 Round trips. Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?
> 
> All my Orlando relations are looking forward for service especially having to go to MIA or MIA airport. Gasoline prices may also have an effect.


As I mentioned, the track is already ballasted from MCO all the way to the last toll plaza on 528. There are probably less than 20 miles to finish laying track and ballasting. Seems like all the base surfacing is complete. There is also some bridge work to complete along the route, notably over I-95, but it's all looking really good!

There is still a TON of double tracking and grade crossing upgrades to complete between Cocoa and WPB. But it isn't required to begin service, albeit at a presumably slower speed. And, if not for revenue, for training (which has already begun along that portion).


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## cirdan

west point said:


> Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?


I guess they could start with a reduced schedule and ramp up as train sets and staff become available.


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## Brian_tampa

More details on the I-4 wildlife crossing I mentioned last week as part of the CR557 interchange rebuild. It was in the local paper this morning.

Between Tampa and Orlando, Florida lifts Interstate 4 for animals


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## Brian_tampa

cirdan said:


> I guess they could start with a reduced schedule and ramp up as train sets and staff become available.


2 of the remaining 3 trainsets are to be delivered to Orlando in July or August. Last trainset delivered by the end of 2022.


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## cirdan

Brian_tampa said:


> 2 of the remaining 3 trainsets are to be delivered to Orlando in July or August. Last trainset delivered by the end of 2022.


but when will they be available for service?

typically when new trains are delivered they still require a fair deal of testing and detail adjustments, plus various sign-offs.

It's not really like buying a new car that you can then drive around in from day one.


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## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> A selling point for the sales tax is that it applies equally to tourists.


Tourists would have to pay the gas tax same as residents. Also tourists would have to pay tolls, and I don't know about Florida, but our electronic tolling system provides discounts for in-state residents.


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## west point

A RR does notjust lay ballast then tamp surface and forget it. Trains have to run over it and then any imprefections need surfacing again. The FEC portion can at least have heavy FEC freights but Cocoa to ORL is different.


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## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> Tourists would have to pay the gas tax same as residents. Also tourists would have to pay tolls, and I don't know about Florida, but our electronic tolling system provides discounts for in-state residents.


Only those who drive in or rent a car. They all pay sales tax on meals, hotels, etc. The county mayor estimates 51% of sales taxes are paid by tourists.

Everyone pays the same tolls in FL if they have a transponder, whether local or from out of state. E-Pass (now Uni) users can get a small rebate on tolls on CFXway roads, but it requires a monthly transaction count of at least 40, so it's effectively only for commuters who drive to and from work 5 days a week.


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## George Harris

west point said:


> A RR does not just lay ballast then tamp surface and forget it. Trains have to run over it and then any imprefections need surfacing again. The FEC portion can at least have heavy FEC freights but Cocoa to ORL is different.


This is not necessarily as long a process as you make it sound like if done properly during the construction phase. In the distant past settlement of the earthworks, as in the fill could easily be a multi-month to-year or more long process. Proper tamping of the fills as has been done now for 50 plus years essentially reduces this settlement phase to zero. However, do not forget to deal with the underlying soil conditions as the upper zone, particularly given Florida's geography may require removal and recompaction of the top layers of existing soil and installation of sand drains and other forms to reduce settlement of the existing ground due to the superimposed loads. Once this is past, the track portion can go fairly quickly. First, install a good layer of subballast or asphalt base course. Lay out track and ties, add ballast, lift and tamp with multiple cycles. Run a vibrating compactor down the line a couple times. (In years past, multiple passes of your heaviest steam engines did this job.) Run a test train or two. There should be minimal track tweaks needed if the preceding work was done properly. If the tweaks are more than minimal, put that contractor on the never again list. That process may be complex with a government agency, but with a private entity it is very simple. After the fixes, which could be as little as a couple weeks later, run empty trains at increasing speeds until you are comfortable with full speed operation. If all things track are done right, this could just be a few days. Then, invite the politicians along for a joy ride. (Having been involved in one of these it is hilarious to hear some of these people talking about how much pioneers they are to be on the first train over the line.) Now you are ready to go. You might want to run a skeleton service for a few days to a week or so with all station and on board staff but the passengers being limited to other employees and families to enable the operating staff to get familiar with the processes. This last step can go a long way to reducing embarrassment during the first few days of public operation.


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## Willbridge

Based on the LRT lines that I've been involved in, there also is a need for a clearance check with platforms, etc. after the track tamping.

Also, life for Operations and for Customer Service is much better if there are some test runs with the proposed timetable. It may be too late to fix a problem by opening day, but if something unforeseen turns up it's best to not be surprised. This is particularly important on single track lines.


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## George Harris

Willbridge said:


> Based on the LRT lines that I've been involved in, there also is a need for a clearance check with platforms, etc. after the track tamping.
> 
> Also, life for Operations and for Customer Service is much better if there are some test runs with the proposed timetable. It may be too late to fix a problem by opening day, but if something unforeseen turns up it's best to not be surprised. This is particularly important on single track lines.


First para: Which is another good reason for direct fixation, that is a concrete based track form. Can't imagine anyone NOT doing a post-tamping clearance check on ballasted track. Usually just walk your clearance trolley through the platforms. If you have multiple stuff where clearance is an issue, equip a full size car with feeler gauges end car and mid car and run it slowly past the points of concern.

Second paragraph: Yes, for single track lines particularly. Not usually necessary for double track lines unless you have fast trains passing slow trains. Is also a very good idea to check for surprises in the power system. You may not need a full day of this, but you should run loaded trains to check performance under maximum electrical demand.


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## west point

George Harris said:


> Second paragraph: Yes, for single track lines particularly. Not usually necessary for double track lines unless you have fast trains passing slow trains. Is also a very good idea to check for surprises in the power system. You may not need a full day of this, but you should run loaded trains to check performance under maximum electrical demand.


Absolutely correct. Dispatch systems as well. Any commuter system if it is going to fail will under the most heavily operating conditions. As Brightline increases service each iteration may find gliches.


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## jis

west point said:


> Absolutely correct. Dispatch systems as well. Any commuter system if it is going to fail will under the most heavily operating conditions. As Brightline increases service each iteration may find gliches.


Most of Brightline's traffic will be south of West Palm Beach. For the foreseeable future north of WPB is 1tph each way, or net 2tph. Increase in capacity will be in terms of added cars per consist.


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## George Harris

George Harris said:


> Second paragraph: Yes, for single track lines particularly. Not usually necessary for double track lines unless you have fast trains passing slow trains. Is also a very good idea to check for surprises in the power system. You may not need a full day of this, but you should run loaded trains to check performance under maximum electrical demand.


Actually getting a little off topic here mentioning power draw since Brightline will be diesel operated. Sorry about that.

As to platform clearance: The ADA requires a horizontal gap of no more than 3 inches and a vertical difference of no more than 5/8 inches. Many times people have to be reminded that these are legal limits, not design values. My usual has been to go for 2 1/2 inches horizontal and zero vertical. There are those that get nervous about the possibility of the car floor being lower than the platform, so if it makes them feel better go for a platform 1/4 inch lower than the car floor. If on a good concrete track, you could possibly reduce the horizontal to 2 inches but you should not go less due to possible wobbles in the vehicle. In any case, the ends of the platforms should be tapered out in the length beyond the end passenger door to 12 inches or so. Of course if you have curved track through the platforms these conditions cannot be met.

For wider gaps you have to have a bridge plate to use if needed. For low platforms, a lift, etc.


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## west point

George: Don't all the Brightline cars have extendable plates from the car doors that extend to the platform's edge.?


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## McIntyre2K7

west point said:


> George: Don't all the Brightline cars have extendable plates from the car doors that extend to the platform's edge.?


 You are correct. This photo is from Jeb Brooks' review of Brightline.


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## cirdan

I think settlement will always be a potential issue but of course a good contractor knows how to minimize it.


George Harris said:


> As to platform clearance: The ADA requires a horizontal gap of no more than 3 inches and a vertical difference of no more than 5/8 inches. Many times people have to be reminded that these are legal limits, not design values. My usual has been to go for 2 1/2 inches horizontal and zero vertical. There are those that get nervous about the possibility of the car floor being lower than the platform, so if it makes them feel better go for a platform 1/4 inch lower than the car floor. If on a good concrete track, you could possibly reduce the horizontal to 2 inches but you should not go less due to possible wobbles in the vehicle. In any case, the ends of the platforms should be tapered out in the length beyond the end passenger door to 12 inches or so. Of course if you have curved track through the platforms these conditions cannot be met.


Furthermore the height of the floor above rail can be reduced (minimally) by such things as reduction of wheel diameter through wear and re-profiling, and also the weight of people and baggage on board the train pressing down the suspension.


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## railiner

cirdan said:


> and also the weight of people and baggage on board the train pressing down the suspension.


I don’t know what these particular cars have, but in a properly operating air suspension, leveling valves should automatically compensate for this…


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## crescent-zephyr

McIntyre2K7 said:


> You are correct. This photo is from Jeb Brooks' review of Brightline.
> 
> View attachment 28612


I was particularly impressed with this when I took a ride shortly after Brightline opened. I had never seen this before.


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## George Harris

west point said:


> George: Don't all the Brightline cars have extendable plates from the car doors that extend to the platform's edge.?


This is the sort of thing I was talking about. It bridges the gap. Looks to be about a one inch gap left in the picture, so well under legal limit.


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## MARC Rider

George Harris said:


> The ADA requires a horizontal gap of no more than 3 inches and a vertical difference of no more than 5/8 inches.


Vertical difference of no more than 5/8 inches, eh? Seems to me that the high platforms of tracks 17-18-19-20 at Washington Union Station don't meet that criteria.


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## daybeers

MARC Rider said:


> Vertical difference of no more than 5/8 inches, eh? Seems to me that the high platforms of tracks 17-18-19-20 at Washington Union Station don't meet that criteria.


Many, many platforms in the US miss this standard by quite a bit.


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## neroden

CCC1007 said:


> Easy enough if you offer a shuttle train MCO-Tampa or MCO-DS.


Sooooo, for whatever reason, the current plans envisage a stub-end station at Disney. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Brightline ends up running Orlando Airport - Disney shuttles and a smaller number of Tampa-Disney shuttles, with the regular all-stops trains from Orlando to Tampa skipping Disney. 

I know it sounds odd, but... operationally it's going to make sense, and with Disney's "We don't want you to visit anyone else" attitude, forcing customers to backtrack to the airport in order to connect from Disney to I-Drive sounds exactly like what Disney would want.


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> Sooooo, for whatever reason, the current plans envisage a stub-end station at Disney.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Brightline ends up running Orlando Airport - Disney shuttles and a smaller number of Tampa-Disney shuttles, with the regular all-stops trains from Orlando to Tampa skipping Disney.
> 
> I know it sounds odd, but... operationally it's going to make sense, and with Disney's "We don't want you to visit anyone else" attitude, forcing customers to backtrack to the airport in order to connect from Disney to I-Drive sounds exactly like what Disney would want.


I think Brightline would want to market a single-seat trip between So. FL & WDW. They're in the business of intercity transportation, not shuttling between WDW & OIA.

The stub-end station shouldn't be a problem, since there are locomotives at both ends. It might just require a longer stop to reverse control direction and PTC. I believe that's fairly common in Europe.


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## NES28

joelkfla said:


> The stub-end station shouldn't be a problem, since there are locomotives at both ends. It might just require a longer stop to reverse control direction and PTC. I believe that's fairly common in Europe.


Why is a stub end station planned? How do we know that? Is this a done deal?


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## joelkfla

NES28 said:


> Why is a stub end station planned? How do we know that? Is this a done deal?


Probably set by Disney, to minimize intrusion and the amount of property required. Concept art released a year or 2 ago with a brief description showed it. IIRC, it's also been shown that way in the rough route maps released by Brightline when the route was planned to be along SR 417.

I haven't seen anything saying Disney has bought into the new route since it was moved north to the Sunshine Corridor, stopping at Universal.

I did see one mention of placing the station around S. International Dr., which would be off Disney property, in which case it could be a run-through station. But that might lessen the possibility of Disney participating in last-mile transportation.


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## jis

If the route runs down I-4 by Disney as would be the case with the new proposed alignment, it would be mighty awkward to try to get a stub end station on Disney property. I think that whole thing will be revisited and any siting of station for the 417 alignment is out the window at present. I am sure Disney will not make it difficult for customers to visit Disney, no matter how obtuse they wish to be.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> If the route runs down I-4 by Disney as would be the case with the new proposed alignment, it would be mighty awkward to try to get a stub end station on Disney property. I think that whole thing will be revisited and any siting of station for the 417 alignment is out the window at present. I am sure Disney will not make it difficult for customers to visit Disney, no matter how obtuse they wish to be.


Not making it difficult, but less likely to provide some sort of shuttle service between the station and Disney's 20 something hotels.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Not making it difficult, but less likely to provide some sort of shuttle service between the station and Disney's 20 something hotels.


That would provide a great illustration of the phrase "Cutting ones nose to spite ones face" 

But then again, it has also gotten out of the business of providing shuttle service from the airport to Disney as I seem to recall. So I suppose it would be par for the course. Brightline would probably cover it with its last mile service anyway, and Sunrail folks would have to fend for themselves.


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> I think Brightline would want to market a single-seat trip between So. FL & WDW. They're in the business of intercity transportation, not shuttling between WDW & OIA.
> 
> The stub-end station shouldn't be a problem, since there are locomotives at both ends. It might just require a longer stop to reverse control direction and PTC. I believe that's fairly common in Europe.


The stub end station does imply though that everything must stop there .


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## AmtrakBlue

I'm trying to get the Sunshine Flyer to pick up either at ORL or KIS or even one of the SunRail stations near MCO. So far, no luck, but they really should do it considering the buses look like train cars.









Home


Sunshine Flyer is a direct bus service from Orlando International Airport (MCO) to Walt Disney World® Resorts. MCO to Disney shuttle service with 1920s themed buses that all families love. Multiple Shuttles per day direct to Walt Disney World® Resorts.




sunshineflyer.com


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## VentureForth

Disney used to contract all transfers from the airport in their inclusive packages with the monopolistic Mears. Then, they started the complimentary Magical express service to keep the "Disney, and nowhere else" philosophy. That ended with covid and the vacuum was returned with Mears, Sunshine Flyer and rideshare being the predominate transfers.

As mentioned before, there would need to be a system to get everyone from a single point at Disney Springs to not only the umpteen Disney hotels, bit he partner hotels as well. Again, the existing system from Disney Springs isn't designed to accommodate baggage.


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## VentureForth

Why is the new track between Cocoa and MCO ballasted? Why not tie concrete ties directly into concrete bed like the Shinkansen?


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Why is the new track between Cocoa and MCO ballasted? Why not tie concrete ties directly into concrete bed like the Shinkansen?


Because that costs a lot more than what ballasted track costs, and is not necessary for running at 125mph. Birghtline has tried very hard to do the least bit necessary to meet their service goals to keep a good control over budgets.


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## neroden

joelkfla said:


> I think Brightline would want to market a single-seat trip between So. FL & WDW. They're in the business of intercity transportation, not shuttling between WDW & OIA.



Oh, that wouldn't be a problem -- what I'm saying is that the trains to Disney will probably skip all stations between Orlando Airport and Disney, including the SunRail transfer station and the I-Drive station. And that the trains from the east to Disney probably wouldn't run through from Disney to Tampa.

So if you want to go from I-Drive to Disney, they'll make you backtrack through the airport and change trains.



joelkfla said:


> The stub-end station shouldn't be a problem, since there are locomotives at both ends. It might just require a longer stop to reverse control direction and PTC. I believe that's fairly common in Europe.


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## Brian_tampa

What I think will happen is that Brightline will restrict riders who use the stations between Disney and MCO to only those whose origination or destination city is outside of the Orlando area. This will mean that Brightline will not carry any local passengers in between MCO and Disney. To me, this makes sense as this gives SunRail more revenue and would also be an incentive for people to use SunRail along their original north-south corridor. This could very well be a condition of the lease agreement for Brightline to use the Sunshine Corridor. As well, this would eliminate the potential of $20 fares filling Brightline trains between local Orlando stations and preventing the higher revenue passengers from Tampa and S Florida access to longer trips.


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## George Harris

VentureForth said:


> Why is the new track between Cocoa and MCO ballasted? Why not tie concrete ties directly into concrete bed like the Shinkansen?


Much of the Shinkansen is on ballast, They are moving toward more and more on concrete. The difference in cost is not that great, but concrete base track is more expensive. It cannot be a rigid system. A certain amount of deflection is necessary, but it would be a very long discussion as to why and how much and how to achieve which I think is inappropriate for this thread. The Shinkansen non-ballasted track system is not rigid and is not ties embedded in concrete.


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## Qapla

I have wondered, when service is finally established, how many passengers will ride from MIA-TPA (or TPA-MIA) on Brightline ... compared to those who only ride partway.


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## west point

Qapla said:


> I have wondered, when service is finally established, how many passengers will ride from MIA-TPA (or TPA-MIA) on Brightline ... compared to those who only ride partway.


Just look at the number on Amtrak that now rides TPA to south east Florida. Once again you need to look at intermediate stations as well as MIA. The Star's biggst city pairs are on this segment.


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## Qapla

west point said:


> look at the number on Amtrak that now rides TPA to south east Florida. Once again you need to look at intermediate stations as well as MIA



My question was not really about "southeast Florida" or "intermediate stations" I was specifically referring to *those who would ride from one end to the other *in a single seat trip.

To illustrate with Amtrak, counting those who ride the Star from JAX-TPA would NOT include those who got on/off at PAK even though Palatka is only about 47 miles from Jacksonville.

I'm sure Brightline is counting on the revenue from those who ride from the intermediate stops as the bulk of their income - I was just curious about the end-to-end numbers.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Because that costs a lot more than what ballasted track costs, and is not necessary for running at 125mph. Birghtline has tried very hard to do the least bit necessary to meet their service goals to keep a good control over budgets.


and furthermore, concrete track does massively reduce the odds of track moving out of alignment due to subsidence.

But if something does move it can get incredibly expensive to fix. On ballasted track on the other hand you just top up the ballast and re-tamp the track and you're good to go.


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## VentureForth

Qapla said:


> My question was not really about "southeast Florida" or "intermediate stations" I was specifically referring to *those who would ride from one end to the other *in a single seat trip.


I suspect there could *potentially* be quite a few. I'm guessing that the time frame from Miami to Tampa on Brightline would be around 4 1/2 to 5 hours. I could be way wrong - I'm not quoting anything they may have posted.

That compared to about 4:15 by car (no stops) according to Google Maps. So for an extra 15-45 minutes to not have to deal with traffic or driving? I would consider value in that.

My bigger concern is comfort. I planned to ride Brightline from WPB to MIA a few months ago. I was SO uncomfortable that I turned around at FLL. I cannot imagine riding for over an hour in those seats. The saving grace is you can get up and walk around. That's nice.

So then there's the price point. If the plan currently is to charge between $50-$75 from MIA to MCO, then I would suspect probably close to $100 from MIA to TPA. Google shows flights from MIA to TPA from $110, and only a little over an hour of flight time. Yes, you need to consider the ancillary time associated with TSA, etc. I don't consider the "last mile" because you need that to/from an airport just like you do from a train station. Not everyone needs to go downtown. I think I would rather sit in a seat on Spirit for 1 hour than a Brightline seat for up to 5 hours.

So then the final question is - are more people willing to take the train, once an hour, 365 days a year OVER flying or driving? When all paths are similar, I DON'T see a huge market share grab with the end-to-end traveler.

Oh a bit of an aside, and for the sake of equal opportunity transports, RedCoach offers bus service from MIA to downtown Tampa for $25/coach, $60/business and schedules the trip for 5 hours and 10 minutes.


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## joelkfla

Brightline is offering a $5 kid's fare for each adult fare thru the end of the summer.

A similar offer between MIA & ORL could be a real traffic driver.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

VentureForth said:


> Oh a bit of an aside, and for the sake of equal opportunity transports, RedCoach offers bus service from MIA to downtown Tampa for $25/coach, $60/business and schedules the trip for 5 hours an 10 minutes.



RedCoach no longer serves Downtown Tampa. That was one of the routes that it cut due to Covid (along with their $5 Tampa-Orlando service). It does look like FlixBus does have service starting at $25 if you book in advance. Makes me wonder if Brightline would just run hourly trains between Tampa/Orlando and West Palm/Miami with a train running the full route (Miami - Tampa) every other hour.


----------



## railiner

If the Silver Palm was still running, I think I might prefer riding it over whatever Brightline runs from Miami to Tampa...from what I have read, the Amfleet II's are more comfortable...


----------



## VentureForth

railiner said:


> If the Silver Palm was still running, I think I might prefer riding it over whatever Brightline runs from Miami to Tampa...from what I have read, the Amfleet II's are more comfortable...


There's some kind of bar in those seats that goes right across my buttox that is rather annoying. I wonder if they had that problem/solved it on the leather refurbs...

But, yeah. The Brightline ride was smooth, but the seats were like sitting on the NYC Subway.


----------



## jis

Apparently a large number of crossing violation tickets are now being doled out in Broward County...









Broward police agencies dole out 500+ citations in less than two weeks of railroad crossing enforcement


Broward County Sheriff's Office issued more than 500 traffic citations through Operation Crossing Guard. The operation ended on Friday and enforced traffic safety along railroad crossings in response to increasing motorist and pedestrian accidents with Brightline trains.




www.sun-sentinel.com


----------



## Qapla

It's about time


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> If the Silver Palm was still running, I think I might prefer riding it over whatever Brightline runs from Miami to Tampa...from what I have read, the Amfleet II's are more comfortable...


Are brightline 1st class seats the same as coach?


----------



## McIntyre2K7

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are brightline 1st class seats the same as coach?



They might be made out of the same material but the 1st class seats are 21 inches wide vs 19 in coach.


----------



## Tlcooper93

McIntyre2K7 said:


> They might be made out of the same material but the 1st class seats are 21 inches wide vs 19 in coach.


Yeah. Definitely worth paying up for those 2 inches rather than slumming it up in smart class… 

A lot of things complain about with Amtrak, but seat comfort is never among them.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yeah. Definitely worth paying up for those 2 inches rather than slumming it up in smart class…
> 
> A lot of things complain about with Amtrak, but seat comfort is never among them.


Except in AM1s( no Footrest or Curtains) and Superliner Coaches.( no Armrests)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> Except in AM1s( no Footrest or Curtains) and Superliner Coaches.( no Armrests)


And Ventures. 
Haven’t some complained about the new Talgos as well?


----------



## joelkfla

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yeah. Definitely worth paying up for those 2 inches rather than slumming it up in smart class…
> 
> A lot of things complain about with Amtrak, but seat comfort is never among them.


You're paying for 2+1 seating and hopefully a quieter, less crowded cabin -- basically same as BC on Amtrak; that may be particularly valuable if you're leaving Miami after a sporting event. But you're guaranteed a single seat if one's available, since seat selection occurs at booking.

In addition, you get snacks & beverages, including alcoholic ones, both on the train and in the station. Station snacks may not be up to the level of Moynihan, but they're far superior to other Amtrak lounges.


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> Station snacks may not be up to the level of Moynihan, but they're far superior to other Amtrak lounges.


And the vast majority of Amtrak stations don't have any lounge at all.


----------



## Brian_tampa

joelkfla said:


> You're paying for 2+1 seating and hopefully a quieter, less crowded cabin -- basically same as BC on Amtrak; that may be particularly valuable if you're leaving Miami after a sporting event. But you're guaranteed a single seat if one's available, since seat selection occurs at booking.
> 
> In addition, you get snacks & beverages, including alcoholic ones, both on the train and in the station. Station snacks may not be up to the level of Moynihan, but they're far superior to other Amtrak lounges.


Well the Miami station does have the food hall, which I hear is pretty good along with the bar there named after Flagler's two wives, Mary and Mary.

Food hall opens at Brightline Miami station: Travel Weekly


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Well the Miami station does have the food hall, which I hear is pretty good along with the bar there named after Flagler's two wives, Mary and Mary.
> 
> Food hall opens at Brightline Miami station: Travel Weekly


The food offerings at Miami Central were actually quite good when I visited it last.


----------



## daybeers

Tlcooper93 said:


> A lot of things complain about with Amtrak, but seat comfort is never among them.


I disagree. They're ergonomically terrible, often have things broken, and the tray tables are a bit of a joke. I understand Amtrak's long distance coach is some of the most comfortable hard coach product on a train in the world, but it doesn't make up for any of the other Amtrak shortcomings.

I haven't tried Brightline's offering, but when I do, I know it'll blow away anything Amtrak has to offer, including Acela First.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

daybeers said:


> I haven't tried Brightline's offering, but when I do, I know it'll blow away anything Amtrak has to offer, including Acela First.


Uhhh definitely reset your expectations.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Disney World announced that there will no longer be a brightline stop at Disney Property. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-disney-world-brightline-station.html?ana=twt


----------



## VentureForth

I wasn't comfortable.

In other news, anyone hear anything about Disney pulling the plug on the Disney Springs Station?


----------



## Tlcooper93

daybeers said:


> I disagree. They're ergonomically terrible, often have things broken, and the tray tables are a bit of a joke. I understand Amtrak's long distance coach is some of the most comfortable hard coach product on a train in the world, but it doesn't make up for any of the other Amtrak shortcomings.
> 
> I haven't tried Brightline's offering, but when I do, I know it'll blow away anything Amtrak has to offer, including Acela First.


The seats in Venture coaches are not as comfortable as your average Amfleet seats.
Maybe its just my luck, but I really have no idea what you're talking about with tray tables. Even in domestic business class on airlines, the tray tables suck, so perhaps I just have low standards.

You say it doesn't make up for the other shortcomings, but I have a feeling if you tried Venture seats for a LD route, you'd change your tune real quick...
Acela first seats are better than Brightline Select; not really a contest there.


----------



## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> Disney World announced that there will no longer be a brightline stop at Disney Property.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-disney-world-brightline-station.html?ana=twt


Well, dang, you hit that before I finished my post.

Unreal. This is Disney calling sour grapes. The 528 corridor actuality has a BETTER approach into Disney Springs.

This is Disney's Harry Potter moment all over again.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> Well, dang, you hit that before I finished my post.
> 
> Unreal. This is Disney calling sour grapes. The 528 corridor actuality has a BETTER approach into Disney Springs.
> 
> This is Disney's Harry Potter moment all over again.


I agree. A very foolish decision. :-(


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Disney World announced that there will no longer be a brightline stop at Disney Property.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-disney-world-brightline-station.html?ana=twt


I must subscribe for $4 a month to read.

But I've been saying this might happen, and everyone said "Nah, Disney isn't that stupid." Well, apparently they are.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

joelkfla said:


> I must subscribe for $4 a month to read.
> 
> But I've been saying this might happen, and everyone said "Nah, Disney isn't that stupid." Well, apparently they are.



From the article: 

“As many people who are involved in this project are aware, the new route configuration does not support a Disney Springs station and as a result, we don’t anticipate being part of this project," Disney spokesperson Avery Maehrer told _Orlando Business Journal_.




Does anyone know how much a two 10 car trainsets from Siemens would cost? I could see Disney buying two trains. With one route bypassing the Orlando Convention Center. 

Disney 1: Tampa/Lakeland/Disney
Disney 2: Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/West Palm Beach/MCO/Disney


----------



## VentureForth

McIntyre2K7 said:


> From the article:
> 
> “As many people who are involved in this project are aware, the new route configuration does not support a Disney Springs station and as a result, we don’t anticipate being part of this project," Disney spokesperson Avery Maehrer told _Orlando Business Journal_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know how much a two 10 car trainsets from Siemens would cost? I could see Disney buying two trains. With one route bypassing the Orlando Convention Center.
> 
> Disney 1: Tampa/Lakeland/Disney
> Disney 2: Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/West Palm Beach/MCO/Disney


Not on Brightline's tracks.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

VentureForth said:


> Not on Brightline's tracks.


Disney can throw money at Brightline. I don't think Brightline is going to run trains 24 hours a day. Also in this case you would just 1 round trip each day. One train leaves Miami for Orlando at 6am (vs the first Brightline Train leaving Miami just before 9am). The return trips to Orlando and Tampa would be 45 minutes after the park closes. They can run an hourly train between MCO and their station as well. This way there is no competition with Brightline. I going to assume that Disney would have owned the station anyways.


----------



## west point

Maybe back to Sun Rail? Guess Disey is going to take their crayons and go hide.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> I must subscribe for $4 a month to read.
> 
> But I've been saying this might happen, and everyone said "Nah, Disney isn't that stupid." Well, apparently they are.


Much as I want Brightline to have the greatest possible success and largest possible customer base, I can see Disney's logic here. If the train is not going to be an airport shuttle but is going to be for people coming in from further afield, then what percentage of Disney's customer base is going to be coming from Miami and stops between, and what proportion of those will be coming by rail? In the bigger picture it's going to be insignificant.


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> Much as I want Brightline to have the greatest possible success and largest possible customer base, I can see Disney's logic here. If the train is not going to be an airport shuttle but is going to be for people coming in from further afield, then what percentage of Disney's customer base is going to be coming from Miami and stops between, and what proportion of those will be coming by rail? In the bigger picture it's going to be insignificant.


It wasn't just that, though. Sure, Brightline could bring folks from Broward/Dade counties and Tampa and drop them off at Disney's doorstep. But the big sell was SUNRAIL providing local service between MCO, Convention Center/Universal/Sea World and Disney Springs on the shared ROW. This decision could probably matter less to Brightline than it will to the City trying to figure out how to increase revenue on Sunrail. Without a stop at DS, operations between MCO and South I-Drive won't be enough.


----------



## chrsjrcj

They did the exact same thing when the Florida High Speed Rail project from 10+ Years ago was also going to serve the Convention Center. Disney said they wouldn’t direct guests from the airport to use the train unless they chose the 417 route that skipped the Convention Center. When the Universal station was announced I was waiting for this shoe to drop.


----------



## VentureForth

chrsjrcj said:


> They did the exact same thing when the Florida High Speed Rail project from 10+ Years ago was also going to serve the Convention Center. Disney said they wouldn’t direct guests from the airport to use the train unless they chose the 417 route that skipped the Convention Center. When the Universal station was announced I was waiting for this shoe to drop.


Disney being petty? Disney being all about keeping everyone inside the Magic Bubble? Say it ain't so.

I don't think they are done here. The fact that the City and the Railroad were not available for comment seems to indicate they were taken by a bit of surprise by all this. Again. Chapek's Folly. FWIW, Disney stock is falling about 5x the rate of the Dow right now. Their decision making process over the last several months seem to be lacking.


----------



## joelkfla

The deal makers have talked about a station in the South I-Drive area. Assuming they still plan to run the rails down I-4, that could be in the Daryl Carter Pkwy area, or perhaps the former Crossroads Shopping Center that is being taken for the reconstruction of the I-4 - SR535 interchange, either of which is adjacent to I-4 and could be connected to WDW by a shuttle bus. It would have to be worked into the I-4 Beyond Ultimate project design, which I believe currently includes double decking parts of I-4 past Disney. 

It would be suitable for commuters, but not so attractive to tourists.


----------



## jis

Brightline, others negotiating ‘Sunshine Corridor’ to restore Disney stop


A station at Disney Springs was part of earlier plans.




www.mynews13.com


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> Brightline, others negotiating ‘Sunshine Corridor’ to restore Disney stop
> 
> 
> A station at Disney Springs was part of earlier plans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mynews13.com


Definitely didn't think the cancellation would last long.


----------



## VentureForth

Tlcooper93 said:


> Definitely didn't think the cancellation would last long.


Cancellation is real. Brightline just shifted to planning a stop "near by" off Disney property. Disney's loss, but calculated. People will still take the train to "near-Disney". Now, Disney won't have to spend a dime - which they don't have very many of these days.


----------



## jis

For one thing it will now be a through station instead of a terminus station. A terminus station never made any sense to me except for the fact that given the previous route alignments that was the only way to get a station on Disney property.


----------



## jis

Arrival of Tri-Rail in downtown Miami stalled, leader spreads blame


Arrival of Tri-Rail in downtown Miami remains delayed from a previously announced November date as the South Florida Regional Authority (SFRTA), Brightline and FEC Railway seek agreement on the need for a new dispatch desk




www.miamitodaynews.com


----------



## west point

The additional dispatcher request is difficultto figure out. The number of grade crossing incidents probably much more than anyone thought. Co ordinating with Trirail at Iris Cp may be a problem as well. Dispatchers probably cannot set up changes from one carrier to other greater than 5 minutes.
Now after 'bright line and TriRail go to bred position should be combined. Ay one know the situation of the FLL draw bridge?


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Brightline, others negotiating ‘Sunshine Corridor’ to restore Disney stop
> 
> 
> A station at Disney Springs was part of earlier plans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mynews13.com


Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.


----------



## west point

joelkfla said:


> Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf
> 
> The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.


Color coding seems to indicate Sun Rail. That is a big puzzle with limited public access. Expect Tri Rail but that would be a very expensive station with a stub end single track station. Stub needed for time for PTC reversal. Cross over turnouts would be needed from south track to north track. then turn out to stub track. Someone's pie in the sky???


----------



## blueman271

jis said:


> Arrival of Tri-Rail in downtown Miami stalled, leader spreads blame
> 
> 
> Arrival of Tri-Rail in downtown Miami remains delayed from a previously announced November date as the South Florida Regional Authority (SFRTA), Brightline and FEC Railway seek agreement on the need for a new dispatch desk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.miamitodaynews.com


I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Full size versions of the maps in that article are downloadable here: https://corporate.sunrail.com/wp-co...p-Brightline-Universal-Presentation-FINAL.pdf
> 
> The final map also shows a "Sunbridge Parkway" station east of the airport. This is the first I've heard of that. The section from there to Disney is tiger-striped, but that station is not included on the "Shared Corridor" map, so it's not clear whether that is proposed to be a SunRail or a Brightline station.


SunRail. That is the eastern terminus of the proposed SunRail East-West Corridor.

As it has been conceived I think after a full build out it will be either a single or two platform track between the two mains so that reversal will not involve any conflicts with any opposing traffic on the mains. At present that area is single track so that issue lies somewhere in the future but is easy to plan for without any disruption to anything right now.

Sunbridge Parkway area (you won't find Sunbridge Parkway there in Google Map, since it is yet to be built. Look for where Innovation Way overpass across Beach Line is) is an up and coming industrial area which makes a very reasonable place for the east end of an Orlando commuter service. It will need to be supported by a local circulator bus/van system to connect to the various business locations or clusters. The exit ramp fly overs have been designed with space for a future placement of such a station.

Incidentally, this is also very close to where the connector from the OUC siding to Brightline has been built. The one that is being used by construction material trains now.


----------



## bonzoesc

blueman271 said:


> I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?


If I had to guess, Amtrak to MIA. Tri-Rail’s trials for the downtown station have been pretty amateur hour so far, with talk about having to reshape platform edges and concerns about the stability of the big ramp with heavier trains than Brightline’s brand new sets, while Amtrak’s already doing research about blocking streets with the really long Super Star trains during station stops.


----------



## west point

blueman271 said:


> I wonder what happens first, Tri-Rail to downtown or Amtrak to the airport?


Great question. The structural problems downtown may not be fixable?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Great question. The structural problems downtown may not be fixable?


The necessary fixes are scheduled to be completed by August of this year. The work is going on at present.

The current unresolved haggling is about dispatching facilities which is yet to be resolved. The Florida Dispatching Company (FDC) which dispatches all of the railroad owned by FECR and Brightline in Florida, wants a setup that Tri-Rail thinks is unnecessary. Of course since the railroad in question is owned by the owners of FDC, Tri-Rail is unlikely to get too far into that station without resolving its differences with FDC first.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> For one thing it will now be a through station instead of a terminus station. A terminus station never made any sense to me except for the fact that given the previous route alignments that was the only way to get a station on Disney property.


The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?


Curved platforms lead to larger than usual gaps between platform and end doors on cars. That is why they are always better to avoid whenever one can. I am sure Brightline will not build a significantly curved high level platform anywhere if they can help it.

BTW, the fact that there was not going to be a station on Disney property was a foregone conclusion once it is decided to proceed from OCC to Tampa along I-4. The previous arrangement with a terminal on Disney property was an odd arrangement because it was the only way to shoehorn a station at a point where the main line would otherwise make a sharp turn to get onto the I-4 alignment.

On the whole the new alignment is a much better one serving many more people than just a Disney property stop


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Curved platforms lead to larger than usual gaps between platform and end doors on cars. That is why they are always better to avoid whenever one can. I am sure Brightline will not build a significantly curved high level platform anywhere if they can help it.


Every doorway has a built-in gap filler which extends to make the car wheelchair accessible. Maybe the gap fillers are not designed for use at a curved platform, and would leave a gap which would be ADA non-compliant.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Ay one know the situation of the FLL draw bridge?


Drawbridge Operation Regulation: New River, Fort Lauderdale, FL


----------



## bonzoesc

joelkfla said:


> Every doorway has a built-in gap filler which extends to make the car wheelchair accessible. Maybe the gap fillers are not designed for use at a curved platform, and would leave a gap which would be ADA non-compliant.


That's almost certainly the case, and only having boarding doors at ends of carriages probably makes things worse.

I feel like I've seen gap fillers on the platform side on the Berlin U-Bahn (but can't find pictures of them from Hausvogteiplatz where I would've seen 'em for sure), but NYC has had them too: Why is the Subway at Union Square Platform Curved? - Untapped New York


----------



## joelkfla

bonzoesc said:


> That's almost certainly the case, and only having boarding doors at ends of carriages probably makes things worse.
> 
> I feel like I've seen gap fillers on the platform side on the Berlin U-Bahn (but can't find pictures of them from Hausvogteiplatz where I would've seen 'em for sure), but NYC has had them too: Why is the Subway at Union Square Platform Curved? - Untapped New York


The most famous platform-mounted gap fillers on NYTA were at the old South Ferry station, which was on a very tight balloon loop. I think they were activated by the train operator pressing a button outside his window, but retraction seemed to be initiated by the side of the train either hitting a contact switch on each individual filler or physically pushing the filler back.

The station was replaced by a modern stub-end terminal maybe half a block away, but I saw a video of a recent fan trip visiting the old station.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Cancellation is real. Brightline just shifted to planning a stop "near by" off Disney property. Disney's loss, but calculated. People will still take the train to "near-Disney". Now, Disney won't have to spend a dime - which they don't have very many of these days.


Can brightline serve eminent domain on Disney . That would be a cynical way of saying we are not on Disney property but still in the same location as before ?


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> The other thing I read somewhere is that Brightline requires a station that can accommodate (for future growth) a 10-car train that is STRAIGHT. Why can't Brightline have a curved platform?


Straight platforms also make it easier for staff to visually check everybody is standing well clear for departure and no coats are caught in doors or anything like that .


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> Straight platforms also make it easier for staff to visually check everybody is standing well clear for departure and no coats are caught in doors or anything like that .


Curved platforms have been all over Japan for nearly a century. Obviously not for 100 years, they use video monitors to see around the train. I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. I understand the desire for the simplicity, but I don't see the requirement.

Note: I was looking for curved Shinkansen stations, and I can't seem to find any. That being said, the trains are so long, they still need monitors to see all the doors (which happen to be at the ends of the carriages). They also employ platform "conductors"(?) who flag the conductor that things are good to go (along with the electronic validations - lights outside doors, in-cab, etc).


----------



## Tlcooper93

VentureForth said:


> Curved platforms have been all over Japan for nearly a century. Obviously not for 100 years, they use video monitors to see around the train. I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. I understand the desire for the simplicity, but I don't see the requirement.
> 
> Note: I was looking for curved Shinkansen stations, and I can't seem to find any. That being said, the trains are so long, they still need monitors to see all the doors (which happen to be at the ends of the carriages). They also employ platform "conductors"(?) who flag the conductor that things are good to go (along with the electronic validations - lights outside doors, in-cab, etc).


I noticed this. Stations in Japan are sometimes straight but individual platforms are curved.

With google earth it’s hard to tell which platforms belong to which lines sometimes. Plenty of curved platforms, but those are often regional lines.

Brightline trains are never going to be all that long though. 10 cars at best, so it’s not a huge deal. 

Edit- check out Tokyo platforms on the eastern side. I think those are Shinkansen and they are curved.


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> I don't know when gap fillers suddenly became a big deal EXCEPT for the fact that disability access has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades.


You answered your own question there.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Can brightline serve eminent domain on Disney . That would be a cynical way of saying we are not on Disney property but still in the same location as before ?


That would seem like an absurd thing to do - to pay Disney for land that is not needed any more. Eminent domain does not make the transaction free of charge. It just forces the transaction to take place.

The same location is more or less unusable without jumping through hoops perhaps, given the new routing.


----------



## VentureForth

Tlcooper93 said:


> I noticed this. Stations in Japan are sometimes straight but individual platforms are curved.
> 
> With google earth it’s hard to tell which platforms belong to which lines sometimes. Plenty of curved platforms, but those are often regional lines.
> 
> Brightline trains are never going to be all that long though. 10 cars at best, so it’s not a huge deal.
> 
> Edit- check out Tokyo platforms on the eastern side. I think those are Shinkansen and they are curved.


Yes - I walked through Tokyo Station daily through high school. The Shinkansen platforms there are slightly curved - to a point where you can't really see the front from the back, but not greatly curved. And you're right, the shorter, regional trains (and the subways you can't really see) also have more curved platforms.

It would have been tough to get a straight or slightly curved station into Disney Springs. The stub terminal looks like it would have been the best solution, but I don't think folks like changing direction in the middle of a ride (primarily thinking about those travelling THROUGH DS rather than to/from). It also makes direction of travel a bit more confusing. I don't recall that Brightline has on-train destination boards on the coaches. That's one thing that I found quite irritating the one time I was at FLL. The NB and SB trains arrived at the same time and the kindergarten walk line leaders didn't seem to have their classes lined up properly. Lack of signage, encouragement of copious adult beverage consumption makes boarding at intermediate stations confusing already - probably more so if you were at a station where all the trains are headed out the same direction but to different destinations.


----------



## jis

Generally gentle curves can be handled with suitably adjustable bridge plates. It is sharp curves that are problematic. Even worse if the track is superelevated too. To see how bad things can get just visit the westbound platform (Track 4) of Metropark on the NEC. You have to veritably jump across a chasm.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

neroden said:


> Oh, that wouldn't be a problem -- what I'm saying is that the trains to Disney will probably skip all stations between Orlando Airport and Disney, including the SunRail transfer station and the I-Drive station. And that the trains from the east to Disney probably wouldn't run through from Disney to Tampa.
> 
> So if you want to go from I-Drive to Disney, they'll make you backtrack through the airport and change trains.


Not having a SunRail transfer point on the way to Disney is really dumb for Disney. Many thousands of Orlando-area residents would LOVE to be able to get to Disney without having to drive the slow-rolling-disaster known as I-4. Being able to get to Disney from your local SunRail station would be a WONDERFUL thing.


----------



## west point

Disney IMO is suffering from a common business madly. Middle age idea that what worked in the past will no longer work. "New Blood" says we must invent the wheel with a different design that does not have effect on its function. We hve to wonder how much the I-4 mess stops people from going to disney. 

Disney is trying to control everything that its potential patrons have to do to visit. Thanks but no thanks. After getting locked in an I-4 mess delaying what was to be a full day into a 1/2 day said forget it and have no regrets.

Now if I could park at Sanford, take Sun Rail to Disney, not have to do I-4, pay to park at Disney, then maybe could put up with all Disney's stupid marching orders.


----------



## jis

Why are people willfully ignoring the fact that the new proposed alignment pretty much makes it difficult to place a station on Disney property? A station is planned in the vicinity, but not on Disney property, and some are all worked up about it without understanding the actual lay of the land apparently. It was not anything that Disney initiated anyway. It was Mayor Buddy Dyer's efforts to get a station at OCC and success in getting all parties together on that. The new alignment actually serves many more potential customers than just a stop at Disney, and there still is a station in the Disney area. It certainly is a better alignment for SunRail service than the 417 Corridor would have been.

IMHO the original proposal to place a terminal station on Disney property was borderline crazy, enabled only by the fact that the then proposed alignment would have had to make a very sharp left turn heading towards Tampa to get on the I-4 alignment. IMHO, it is a good that that a solution has been found eliminating that.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

jis said:


> Why are people willfully ignoring the fact that the new proposed alignment pretty much makes it difficult to place a station on Disney property? A station is planned in the vicinity, but not on Disney property, and some are all worked up about it without understanding the actual lay of the land apparently. It was not anything that Disney initiated anyway. It was Mayor Buddy Dyer's efforts to get a station at OCC and success in getting all parties together on that. The new alignment actually serves many more potential customers than just a stop at Disney, and there still is a station in the Disney area. It certainly is a better alignment for SunRail service than the 417 Corridor would have been.
> 
> IMHO the original proposal to place a terminal station on Disney property was borderline crazy, enabled only by the fact that the then proposed alignment would have had to make a very sharp left turn heading towards Tampa to get on the I-4 alignment. IMHO, it is a good that that a solution has been found eliminating that.



So does Disney not own the land that's highlighted below? If so, that looks like a great place for them to build their own station. It looks like the majority of the Disney buses serve the All Star Movies Resort. So just redirect them to the new station. Have a separate hotel shuttle pick up/drop off area as well for Hotels that are not on Disney property but are nearby as well. Hotels would pay Disney a fee to use the pickup/drop off area as well.


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## Brian_tampa

McIntyre2K7 said:


> So does Disney not own the land that's highlighted below? If so, that looks like a great place for them to build their own station. It looks like the majority of the Disney buses serve the All Star Movies Resort. So just redirect them to the new station. Have a separate hotel shuttle pick up/drop off area as well for Hotels that are not on Disney property but are nearby as well. Hotels would pay Disney a fee to use the pickup/drop off area as well.
> 
> View attachment 28817


I believe the potential station site is just north of whatis shown here between West Osceola Pkwy. and Epcot Center Dr. on the east side of I-4. There is a big amount of open land there that borders I-Drive.

I believe Disney does own the land on the west side of I-4 that you highlighted in red.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Why are people willfully ignoring the fact that the new proposed alignment pretty much makes it difficult to place a station on Disney property? A station is planned in the vicinity, but not on Disney property, and some are all worked up about it without understanding the actual lay of the land apparently. It was not anything that Disney initiated anyway. It was Mayor Buddy Dyer's efforts to get a station at OCC and success in getting all parties together on that. The new alignment actually serves many more potential customers than just a stop at Disney, and there still is a station in the Disney area. It certainly is a better alignment for SunRail service than the 417 Corridor would have been.
> 
> IMHO the original proposal to place a terminal station on Disney property was borderline crazy, enabled only by the fact that the then proposed alignment would have had to make a very sharp left turn heading towards Tampa to get on the I-4 alignment. IMHO, it is a good that that a solution has been found eliminating that.


As McIntyre2k7 points out there is available Disney land further south from Disney Springs and from where I believe the preferred new station site will be.

From what I have read and been told, the original plan was to have the tracks on the west side of I-4 south of Osceola Pkwy. So it is still very doable to have a station on Disney property - maybe not the location that Disney would prefer near Disney Springs. As was reported recently, Brightline and others are still in talks with Disney regarding the south I-Drive area station site. 

I have found it interesting that Disney was not invited to join the Sunshine Corridor group. If I were to speculate, it would appear Universal Studios may have influenced the location off Disney property as an initial site.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> As McIntyre2k7 points out there is available Disney land further south from Disney Springs and from where I believe the preferred new station site will be.
> 
> From what I have read and been told, the original plan was to have the tracks on the west side of I-4 south of Osceola Pkwy. So it is still very doable to have a station on Disney property - maybe not the location that Disney would prefer near Disney Springs. As was reported recently, Brightline and others are still in talks with Disney regarding the south I-Drive area station site.
> 
> I have found it interesting that Disney was not invited to join the Sunshine Corridor group. If I were to speculate, it would appear Universal Studios may have influenced the location off Disney property as an initial site.


Indeed, as I mentioned the Sunrise Corridor thing was done by a group that did not include Disney. Disney did not get to make a choice yet about whether their land would be used or not. The original land offered became nonviable with the reroute, and Disney was not party to that decision. As for whether Disney will or will not be involved in deciding the site of the South I-Drive station remains to be seen. But that being part of the Sunshine Corridor now it is not just Disney and Brightline's decision to make. The Sunshine Corridor Consortium to use an informal name for the collective is the one that has to come to an agreement on it.

You are quite correct in speculating that Universal through the Sunshine Group may be playing its cards in the background to ensure that the station is not on Disney land. We'll see how all that unfolds.

BTW, since the current proposed station is at South I-Drive, my assumption is that it will be close to South I-Drive, which to me suggests that the tentative location proposed is between World Center Drive and Osceola Parkway on the east of I-4 and west of I-Drive. It could be further South, but then it would have nothing to do with I-Drive.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Indeed, as I mentioned the Sunrise Corridor thing was done by a group that did not include Disney. Disney did not get to make a choice yet about whether their land would be used or not. The original land offered became nonviable with the reroute, and Disney was not party to that decision. As for whether Disney will or will not be involved in deciding the site of the South I-Drive station remains to be seen. But that being part of the Sunshine Corridor now it is not just Disney and Brightline's decision to make. The Sunshine Corridor Consortium to use an informal name for the collective is the one that has to come to an agreement on it.
> 
> You are quite correct in speculating that Universal through the Sunshine Group may be playing its cards in the background to ensure that the station is not on Disney land. We'll see how all that unfolds.
> 
> BTW, since the current proposed station is at South I-Drive, my assumption is that it will be close to South I-Drive, which to me suggests that the tentative location proposed is between World Center Drive and Osceola Parkway on the west of I-4 and east of I-Drive. It could be further South, but then it would have nothing to do with I-Drive.


Yes, I see it as a struggle for power or control between Disney and the Universal/I-Drive interests. Having a station located west of I-4 near Disney does not benefit either Universal or I-Drive businesses as they would rightly see it as a stop for Disney. But I do understand why the local politicians did what they did in order to get their goal, which is an expanded SunRail system. 

That being said, the 417 route is not completely off the table yet from my understanding of things. It is the backup "Plan B" so to speak of.

And FDOT is also in the background here as well, since any route along I-4 must be approved by them. Brightline has been working with FDOT over the past several years to fit their tracks along I-4 into the final design for the expansion of I-4 west to US 27 in Polk County.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> Yes, I see it as a struggle for power or control between Disney and the Universal/I-Drive interests. Having a station located west of I-4 near Disney does not benefit either Universal or I-Drive businesses as they would rightly see it as a stop for Disney. But I do understand why the local politicians did what they did in order to get their goal, which is an expanded SunRail system.
> 
> That being said, the 417 route is not completely off the table yet from my understanding of things. It is the backup "Plan B" so to speak of.
> 
> And FDOT is also in the background here as well, since any route along I-4 must be approved by them. Brightline has been working with FDOT over the past several years to fit their tracks along I-4 into the final design for the expansion of I-4 west to US 27 in Polk County.


And of course the ability to execute the Sunsrise Plan depends crucially on bagging significant federal grants.

One interesting odd tidbbit is that even if the 417 alignment is used, by using the World Drive to I-4 the new proposed South I-Drive site remains viable.

So much can happen between now and a final decision.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> And of course the ability to execute the Sunsrise Plan depends crucially on bagging significant federal grants.
> 
> One interesting odd tidbbit is that even if the 417 alignment is used, by using the World Drive to I-4 the new proposed South I-Drive site remains viable.
> 
> So much can happen between now and a final decision.


The location for the south I-Drive station site might be a feature, not a bug. Perhaps Brightline agreed to it based on the assumption that politically, it would be difficult to move forward with the original 417/Disney Springs plan? This way, Brightline can gain some favor if the Sunshine Corridor plan does not come about. Since I do not know the current state of relations between Disney and Brightline, especially after this new Sunshine Corridor proposal, locating the station east of I-4 south of World Center Drive would be the best outcome for all in the event the 417 route is back on the table.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Why are people willfully ignoring the fact that the new proposed alignment pretty much makes it difficult to place a station on Disney property?


I’m not sure this is a fact? I don’t see how the new alignment changes the option for a station on Disney property.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure this is a fact? I don’t see how the new alignment changes the option for a station on Disney property.


Not anywhere on Disney property, but getting to the original site at Disney Springs is awkward, even ignoring the idea of having a terminal station in the middle of a trunk line.

Building somewhere else on Disney property is feasible as we have discussed above at length


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Not anywhere on Disney property, but getting to the original site at Disney Springs is awkward,


Can you explain how getting to that site is now awkward? That’s the part I don’t understand, I’m not sure what changed. I know the approach is now different but the line still goes right past Disney Springs correct?


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Can you explain how getting to that site is now awkward? That’s the part I don’t understand, I’m not sure what changed. I know the approach is now different but the line still goes right past Disney Springs correct?


It was never revealed exactly what site they were contemplating.

It looks to me like an 850' platform could be built in the cast parking lots with fairly easy access to I-4 at both ends.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

Brian_tampa said:


> Yes, I see it as a struggle for power or control between Disney and the Universal/I-Drive interests. Having a station located west of I-4 near Disney does not benefit either Universal or I-Drive businesses as they would rightly see it as a stop for Disney. But I do understand why the local politicians did what they did in order to get their goal, which is an expanded SunRail system.
> 
> That being said, the 417 route is not completely off the table yet from my understanding of things. It is the backup "Plan B" so to speak of.
> 
> And FDOT is also in the background here as well, since any route along I-4 must be approved by them. Brightline has been working with FDOT over the past several years to fit their tracks along I-4 into the final design for the expansion of I-4 west to US 27 in Polk County.


It would be wonderful if that collaboration to add Brightline would also expedite that expansion to 27 and perhaps some additional spots on the way to Tampa. That one stretch from Disney to 27 is now the absolute worst section of I-4. You could probably make a mint delivering pizzas by drones to some of the several hundred thousand drivers stranded in that stretch of I-4 every day.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> It was never revealed exactly what site they were contemplating.
> 
> It looks to me like an 850' platform could be built in the cast parking lots with fairly easy access to I-4 at both ends.
> View attachment 28822


Yeah. You are probably right. Though it seems that there are bigger political and corporate competitive forces at play, and Disney has withdrawn the offer of whatever they were offering.

At a high level what I would like to see is an alignment that admits a station in the OCCC area and another at the South I-Drive/Disney area (i.e. left or right side of I-4).

Ideally the I-Drive/Disney station would be two terminal (likely low level) platform tracks for SunRail and two through (high level) platform tracks for Brightline It would appear to be quite feasible to build that on either side of I-4 or if necessary right on top of I-4. Afterall it will all be mostly, if not wholly on elevated structure. Then the head house needs to be placed somewhere with good road access and space for a largish bus station. Of course the head house faiclities will be distinct for Brightline and Sun Rail similar to what we find in Miami Central between Brightline and TriRail.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Yeah. You are probably right. Though it seems that there are bigger political and corporate competitive forces at play, and Disney has withdrawn the offer of whatever they were offering.
> 
> At a high level what I would like to see is an alignment that admits a station in the OCCC area and another at the South I-Drive/Disney area (i.e. left or right side of I-4).
> 
> Ideally the I-Drive/Disney station would be two terminal (likely low level) platform tracks for SunRail and two through (high level) platform tracks for Brightline It would appear to be quite feasible to build that on either side of I-4 or if necessary right on top of I-4. Afterall it will all be mostly, if not wholly on elevated structure. Then the head house needs to be placed somewhere with good road access and space for a largish bus station. Of course the head house faiclities will be distinct for Brightline and Sun Rail similar to what we find in Miami Central between Brightline and TriRail.


Not likely over I-4. I-4 Beyond Ultimate plans are to elevate the main traffic lanes in that section, to make room for 4 managed lanes and 2 tracks of rail at ground level. I don't think they could squeeze in 2 more tracks and platforms.

Now that I think of it, maybe that's why they're saying it's not practical to build the station at Disney Springs. It would be much easier to veer east of I-4 before reaching the elevated section and not have to thread the tracks through all that mess.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Now that I think of it, maybe that's why they're saying it's not practical to build the station at Disney Springs. It would be much easier to veer east of I-4 before reaching the elevated section and not have to thread the tracks through all that mess.


That certainly appears to be the current plan ... station between I-4 and South International Drive.


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## rookzie

For all the reasoning that "jis" has stated.

Additionally, it should be noted that most of the opposition to the Disney Springs route has come from Orlando’s Right Rail, the community coalition (and the advocacy) sponsored by the I-Drive Chamber of Commerce, not by Brightline itself or by Disney.

This is one time that the "opposition" (to Disney Springs) makes a case with concessions, by moving the alignment to cover Taft Vineland Road (TVR) to SR 528 to the Convention Center. The rated top speed would be reduced from the proposed 120 to 90 MPH, and (according to the city leaders) it would not be as residentially intrusive as the originally planned route. The point is, indeed it's primarily political with stakeholders OTHER than Disney.









Why Mickey Mouse Won’t Get His Brightline Station - Railway Age


There is a Disney fan site called www.disneydining.com that is not affiliated with the Disney organization, but it reports news about what’s happening on and around the Disney properties. On June 27, the site




www.railwayage.com













Brightline, others negotiating ‘Sunshine Corridor’ to restore Disney stop


A station at Disney Springs was part of earlier plans.




www.mynews13.com


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## Brian_tampa

rookzie said:


> For all the reasoning that "jis" has stated.
> 
> Additionally, it should be noted that most of the opposition to the Disney Springs route has come from Orlando’s Right Rail, the community coalition (and the advocacy) sponsored by the I-Drive Chamber of Commerce, not by Brightline itself or by Disney.
> 
> This is one time that the "opposition" (to Disney Springs) makes a case with concessions, by moving the alignment to cover Taft Vineland Road (TVR) to SR 528 to the Convention Center. The rated top speed would be reduced from the proposed 120 to 90 MPH, and (according to the city leaders) it would not be as residentially intrusive as the originally planned route. The point is, indeed it's primarily political with stakeholders OTHER than Disney.


If I recall, the proposed speed reduction is not due to the new route using the Taft-Vineland corridor, but was made by the Right Rail group as a way to reduce the price of the new route by making changes to design parameters (mostly from the old FL HSR design that used Taft-Vineland at the 125mph or more speed) that were used by Brightline to estimate the $1B in additional expenses to build the Sunshine Corridor route compared to 417 (with equal max operating speeds for both routes). Right Rail came out with their engineering study showing the Taft-Vineland route would at most be $200M more than the 417 route.

I think their proposal does away with most of the bridges along Taft-Vineland that would have been needed for 120mph operation. 90mph is a compromise to use grade crossings instead of bridges. I am not sure what the final design will utilize.


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## Brian_tampa

AmtrakWPK said:


> It would be wonderful if that collaboration to add Brightline would also expedite that expansion to 27 and perhaps some additional spots on the way to Tampa. That one stretch from Disney to 27 is now the absolute worst section of I-4. You could probably make a mint delivering pizzas by drones to some of the several hundred thousand drivers stranded in that stretch of I-4 every day.


From what I have read, FDOT hasn't programmed the I-4 Beyond the Ultimate West (the expansion near Disney and west to 27) project until 2025 or so. They have to apply for matching funds based on year of construction and it is not funded yet. It might also be the reason Brightline has consistently stated a construction start date of 2025 at the earliest for Tampa (or work west of Disney area). Brightline has to work around a huge project such as the Beyond the Ultimate West that basically uses the whole ROW for miles. There will be many elevated lanes along this stretch of I-4 as well for the Lexus Lanes as well as the mainline lanes as previously noted.

Edit: Corrected name of future project to I-4 Beyond the Ultimate, which has two components. East of the completed Ultimate section and that west of the completed section which is west of Sand Lake Road.


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## Brian_tampa

Here is a link to the I-4 Beyond the Ultimate project website

Project Info & Map: Find out what’s happening in your area. - I-4 Beyond the Ultimate


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## Brian_tampa

I came across this video today of the Brightline crash several months ago involving an auto carrier truck stuck on the tracks in Lantana. I don't know if this has already been posted before here. This video should be required viewing for driver education classes, and for anyone cited for disobeying rail crossing laws.


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## west point

What did the photographer do to maybe prevent or at least reduce the severity of this incident? Did I mistake it but did he say it was stalled on the crossing for 4 minutes?


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## Brian_tampa

west point said:


> What did the photographer do to maybe prevent or at least reduce the severity of this incident? Did I mistake it but did he say it was stalled on the crossing for 4 minutes?


I don't think he did anything.


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## west point

Brian_tampa said:


> I don't think he did anything.


Unfortunately did nothing but get that video at all costs. What would any injured passengers say to that? When in FL Brightline/FEC is first on my cell contacts followed by CSX..


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## Brian_tampa

west point said:


> Unfortunately did nothing but get that video at all costs. What would any injured passengers say to that? When in FL Brightline/FEC is first on my cell contacts followed by CSX..


Myself, I would call 911 as I don't have the railroad numbers.

But, this video should also show that the Siemens Charger locomotives can definitely survive a relatively high speed crash into a large vehicle. I know there have been people who have questioned the safety of the crew in the cab of these locomotives during a crash.


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## Brian_tampa

After reading through the comments on YouTube for this video, the guy videoing the crash commented from earlier today:

Hello Themeparkfan... In theory, that would have been the ideal answer. The commentary you hear is me talking to 911 as soon as I saw the truck stuck. The driver did not exit his truck for a couple of minutes trying to get his truck to move but it wasn't going anywhere. I was hoping and thinking it would move also. But, it had no traction on its back wheels to move. He never should have gone down the road he was on. It's not a road for tractor trailers. He finally got out shortly before the train hit. In real time, there was no time unfortunately.

So I do apologize to him for making false statements about his actions. He says he did call 911 before the crash as soon as he saw the truck was stuck - it seems that 2 or 3 minutes is not enough time for 911 to contact FECR about a crossing incursion. That is what needs to be investigated.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> So I do apologize to him for making false statements about his actions. He says he did call 911 before the crash as soon as he saw the truck was stuck - it seems that 2 or 3 minutes is not enough time for 911 to contact FECR about a crossing incursion. That is what needs to be investigated.


Even though it might say FECR for the number on the sign at the crossing, the actual entity that would handle such calls is the Florida Dispatching Company, since they control the traffic on that trackage.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Even though it might say FECR for the number on the sign at the crossing, the actual entity that would handle such calls is the Florida Dispatching Company, since they control the traffic on that trackage.


I wonder how 911 centers handle calls like this? There must be a procedure they have to try to quickly contact the dispatch center for the railroad. I can understand why the guy videoing the scene did not approach the crossing, due to perceived danger, and instead chose to call 911 from his phone from across the street. The truck driver was definitely at fault here for not calling the railroad number posted on the crossing signal (and for getting stuck).


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## joelkfla

A peek inside the airport station head house under construction (pretty much just an empty shell at this point):


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## jis

Two more sets on delivery trip to Florida









News photo: New Brightline trains heading to Florida - Trains


Two more new trainsets to support Brightline’s expansion of service to Orlando, Fla., are on their way to the passenger operator. The Bright Pink 2 and Bright Green 2 trainsets, which departed Siemens’ Sacramento factory on July 8, were photographed Saturday, July 16, on CSX Transportation’s...




www.trains.com





They will be delivered to the OIA facility.


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## jis

Here is a good explanation of what transpired causing the selection of the new route. There is some new information about why CFX cannot lease the RoW along 417 without running afoul of their previous Eminent Domain agreement with Hunter's Creek, something that I was unaware of.









Why Mickey Mouse Won’t Get His Brightline Station - Railway Age


There is a Disney fan site called www.disneydining.com that is not affiliated with the Disney organization, but it reports news about what’s happening on and around the Disney properties. On June 27, the site




www.railwayage.com


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Here is a good explanation of what transpired causing the selection of the new route. There is some new information about why CFX cannot lease the RoW along 417 without running afoul of their previous Eminent Domain agreement with Hunter's Creek, something that I was unaware of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Mickey Mouse Won’t Get His Brightline Station - Railway Age
> 
> 
> There is a Disney fan site called www.disneydining.com that is not affiliated with the Disney organization, but it reports news about what’s happening on and around the Disney properties. On June 27, the site
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railwayage.com


I didn't know they were designing for 90 mph between OIA & Disney. That's rather disappointing.


----------



## west point

90 vs 125 MPH will equal what at most 2 minutes. The 417 route was planned at 125. But now we find 417 is a no go unless a very messy emminent domain fight. At first the now planned route was 125 but costs double what 417 would be. A very pragmatic decision to go with 90 IMHO>


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## joelkfla

west point said:


> 90 vs 125 MPH will equal what at most 2 minutes. The 417 route was planned at 125. But now we find 417 is a no go unless a very messy emminent domain fight. At first the now planned route was 125 but costs double what 417 would be. A very pragmatic decision to go with 90 IMHO>


More like 1 minute. I hadn't realized that the distance actually along 417 would have been only about 5 miles.


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## jis

Brightline raising the testing speed limit to 79mph in Brevard County in Melbourne and Rockledge, North of Post Road (inclusive)



https://bit.ly/3Q4mbCP


(PDF)


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## VentureForth

Drove the 528 today. There is rail on all but 2 miles of the ROW. Lots still not tied or ballasted beyond that, but looking better every week!


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> More like 1 minute. I hadn't realized that the distance actually along 417 would have been only about 5 miles.


I don’t know about speeds along the straight bit but some of those curves and zig zags look as though they may need tighter speed restrictions than that . In which case it is a legitimate question to ask what the point of accelerating is when you only need to applying brakes less than a minute later


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## jis

An unequivocal endorsement of Brightline with a reasonable discussion of public vs. private funding issues peculiar to the US.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> An unequivocal endorsement of Brightline with a reasonable discussion of public vs. private funding issues peculiar to the US.



Great report, but I disagree with his assertation that if Brightline fails, Amtrak should take it over. More like Brightline should start taking over sections of Amtrak - one line at a time. Of course, then those lines won't be transportation welfare anymore.


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## Tlcooper93

VentureForth said:


> Great report, but I disagree with his assertation that if Brightline fails, Amtrak should take it over. More like Brightline should start taking over sections of Amtrak - one line at a time. Of course, then those lines won't be transportation welfare anymore.


Transportation Welfare?

Not sure your ideology on transportation is grounded in reality or fact.
Brightline can yank service at a moment's notice if they so choose (From March 2020 till Nov 2021). Amtrak doesn't have that luxury, and rightly so.
Not sure I want Brightline running anything close to a national rail network, some parts of which are infinitely more complex (the NEC) than the current Orlando-Miami corridor.

Not saying they can't manage a small route here and there (they do so quite well), but lets not get things mixed because we have an antiquated and obsolete view that transportation related companies should make money.


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Several posts in this thread were off topic as to Brightline and were moved to a new thread:






Amtrak in Florida


Ok, I am thinking positive and Brightline will be profitable and grow. Amtrak could learn from Brightline. Customer service, equipment, catering, etc. A rational reorganization of Amtrak Florida service would add the long ago discontinued "Silver Comet" (yes, I know it went to Birmingham...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I came across this video today of the Brightline crash several months ago involving an auto carrier truck stuck on the tracks in Lantana. I don't know if this has already been posted before here. This video should be required viewing for driver education classes, and for anyone cited for disobeying rail crossing laws.



So, I do have one observation here: If they had quad gates and some sort of trigger where if the gate won't go down, the train is directed to drop its speed (there being a presumed obstacle), that might help with this sort of thing. I guess the question there would be one of false positives and so on.

[The other thought that comes to mind is having some sort of video-monitored "emergency switch" - I suggest video monitoring because I'd want to prosecute anyone pulling a false alarm - at each crossing. I know some crossings have callboxes, but I don't think it's all of them.]

Finally:
*


The red dot in both cases is where the accident occurred, and the train was going SB.*

I don't know where the engineer should have been able to see or if he'd have been able to stop in time if he'd gone into emergency if a gate smacking the truck had ordered him to do so. He was already slowing down at the time of impact (the train only went a little way past the crossing) but I don't recall if that's a 79 zone, slightly slower, etc.


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> So, I do have one observation here: If they had quad gates and some sort of trigger where if the gate won't go down, the train is directed to drop its speed (there being a presumed obstacle), that might help with this sort of thing. I guess the question there would be one of false positives and so on.
> 
> [The other thought that comes to mind is having some sort of video-monitored "emergency switch" - I suggest video monitoring because I'd want to prosecute anyone pulling a false alarm - at each crossing. I know some crossings have callboxes, but I don't think it's all of them.]
> 
> Finally:
> *View attachment 28995
> View attachment 28996
> 
> The red dot in both cases is where the accident occurred, and the train was going SB.*
> 
> I don't know where the engineer should have been able to see or if he'd have been able to stop in time if he'd gone into emergency if a gate smacking the truck had ordered him to do so. He was already slowing down at the time of impact (the train only went a little way past the crossing) but I don't recall if that's a 79 zone, slightly slower, etc.


I think there was talk of installing intrusion detectors tied into PTC at crossings on the newly reconstructed double-trackage north of WPB. I don't know whether they've gone forward with that, nor whether there were plans to retrofit crossings between WPB & MIA.

On other railroads, intrusion detectors using radar were found to be superior to ones using magnetic loops.


----------



## jis

Trains article on Brightline 79mph testing...









Brightline begins 79-mph testing on section of route to Orlando - Trains


MELBOURNE, Fla. — In another small step forward for Brightline’s planned expansion of service north to Orlando, one of the passenger operator’s trains reached a top speed of 79 mph Wednesday afternoon on an approximately 20-mile stretch of Florida East Coast Railway track between Melbourne and...




www.trains.com


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## Qapla

With the Brightline locomotives - do the engineers drive seated or standing?


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## jis

Qapla said:


> With the Brightline locomotives - do the engineers drive seated or standing?


Seated in a very comfortable chair.


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## bonzoesc

jis said:


> Trains article on Brightline 79mph testing...
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> Brightline begins 79-mph testing on section of route to Orlando - Trains
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> MELBOURNE, Fla. — In another small step forward for Brightline’s planned expansion of service north to Orlando, one of the passenger operator’s trains reached a top speed of 79 mph Wednesday afternoon on an approximately 20-mile stretch of Florida East Coast Railway track between Melbourne and...
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> www.trains.com


I've been thankful every time I go that the people of Brevard don't drive like everyone down here in the 305, but 110mph is a lot.


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## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> Trains article on Brightline 79mph testing...
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> Brightline begins 79-mph testing on section of route to Orlando - Trains
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> MELBOURNE, Fla. — In another small step forward for Brightline’s planned expansion of service north to Orlando, one of the passenger operator’s trains reached a top speed of 79 mph Wednesday afternoon on an approximately 20-mile stretch of Florida East Coast Railway track between Melbourne and...
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> www.trains.com


This article said 2023 is service start, but I’ve recently read and seen that Brightline will make its original deadline of Q4 2022. Which is it?


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## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> This article said 2023 is service start, but I’ve recently read and seen that Brightline will make its original deadline of Q4 2022. Which is it?


They will start test runs in '22, but service start date is tentatively sometime in 1CQ23. There will be a good 3 to 4 months window for testing and validation of the infrastructure.


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of general posts (not specific to Brightline) regarding protection of occupants of the engine/cab during collisions have been moved to their own thread at:






Protection for people in engine/cab in collisions


Dang. Is there a protected spot for the engineer to hunker down in when he sees that he is going to hit a truck like this? I always wonder if locomotive designers design the underside of the engineers "dashboard/workstation" with a padded/reinforced lining to protect the engineer in case of a...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue the cab protection related general discussion there, and leave this thread for discussing Brightline Florida.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> They will start test runs in '22, but service start date is tentatively sometime in 1CQ23. There will be a good 3 to 4 months window for testing and validation of the infrastructure.


They also made some noise last month about possibly getting started for the holiday season of 2022.


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## Brian_tampa

One of Florida's greatest HSR advocates and champions has passed away yesterday. C.C. "Doc" Dockery from Lakeland was instrumental in getting the Florida HSR constitutional amendment passed back in 2000. It required the state to fund a passenger rail system operating at speeds of at least 120mph between Tampa, Orlando, and Miami.

He has been in constant contact with Brightline over the years as they sought his advice. Husein Cumber was quoted in the linked story below:

_“Doc Dockery was a visionary and a champion for high-speed rail in the state of Florida. His support for expanding transportation options as a community leader and former member of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority paved the way for the state and local communities to embrace Brightline,” wrote Husein Cumber, Florida East Coast Industries, parent of Brightline, in a statement._

He will be missed. It is so sad that he never got to see his dream of HSR in Florida become reality, at least to Orlando and Tampa.


C.C. ‘Doc’ Dockery, Lakeland businessman and high-speed rail ‘visionary,’ dies at 89


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## jis

Officially early 2023 for completion provided adequate funds can be acquired. 110moh testing to start in the Fall. Interstingly Brightline claims to be studying the possibility of raising speed limit on the Cocoa - Orlando segment to 150mph. Does that imply electrification of that segment with NEC ICT style dual mode? Who knows what they are thinking?

Brightline To Soon Begin Testing At 110 MPH, Fastest Speed Ever


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Officially early 2023 for completion provided adequate funds can be acquired. 110moh testing to start in the Fall. Interstingly Brightline claims to be studying the possibility of raising speed limit on the Cocoa - Orlando segment to 150mph. Does that imply electrification of that segment with NEC ICT style dual mode? Who knows what they are thinking?
> 
> Brightline To Soon Begin Testing At 110 MPH, Fastest Speed Ever


I was told by someone at Brightline who I met in person earlier this year that the 150 mph MAS would be implemented along the Tampa extension where they have more miles of straight enough track to make it worthwhile. There are no plans to make the Cocoa to MCO segment suitable for 150mph speeds. Although they might test the concept along that stretch of track.

To get to this speed, Brightline plans to eliminate the 4000hp limit on their Chargers. I think it might be a relatively simple adjustment per my contact. 8800hp is a whole lot of power for a 4-10 car train! I don't know how true the next part of what I was told is. It seems there are what Siemens calls high speed trucks already fitted to the Venture cars and the Chargers. With some tweaking, I was told these could be made suitable for the increase in speed from the existing max truck design speed of 135-137mph to 150mph. So it appears that the Venture trainsets are capable of more than what the public specification documents reveal!


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## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> I was told by someone at Brightline who I met in person earlier this year that the 150 mph MAS would be implemented along the Tampa extension where they have more miles of straight enough track to make it worthwhile. There are no plans to make the Cocoa to MCO segment suitable for 150mph speeds. Although they might test the concept along that stretch of track.
> 
> To get to this speed, Brightline plans to eliminate the 4000hp limit on their Chargers. I think it might be a relatively simple adjustment per my contact. 8800hp is a whole lot of power for a 4-10 car train! I don't know how true the next part of what I was told is. It seems there are what Siemens calls high speed trucks already fitted to the Venture cars and the Chargers. With some tweaking, I was told these could be made suitable for the increase in speed from the existing max truck design speed of 135-137mph to 150mph. So it appears that the Venture trainsets are capable of more than what the public specification documents reveal!


I think 150mph between Cocoa & Orlando may have been a reporting error in the article. It has a link to a previous article reporting that Brightline was looking at 150mph on the Tampa extension, not the Orlando line.


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## daybeers

jis said:


> Officially early 2023 for completion provided adequate funds can be acquired


"The company is looking to raise up to $500 million in financing in the next few weeks. Construction could be curtailed or delayed if it is unable to raise additional financing, the report said." Yes this is a key issue; I didn't know there was funding missing. Maybe inflation-related?

I hope the 150 mph will come with electrification. Even so, would 150 being the top speed really knock all that much time off to be worth the substantial capital and operational funding needed? Much more expensive to maintain the infrastructure and operate the trains at 150 than 125.


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## west point

Same points as those to Amtrak. train set will have to prove operational to 165, Now Amtrak might do it first on the NEC. If Amtrak gets the ALC-Es first then it woul be prudent to test them at 165 under the wires on the NEC. Would that also pass to Brightline? Who knows.
There might be a FRA requirement for an ALC=e to do the test having the diesel running at max RPM? Would Brightline order any ALC-Es who knows? This poster suspets that just installing ACS-64 trucks on the diesel locos would suffice.


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## cirdan

daybeers said:


> I hope the 150 mph will come with electrification. Even so, would 150 being the top speed really knock all that much time off to be worth the substantial capital and operational funding needed? Much more expensive to maintain the infrastructure and operate the trains at 150 than 125.


Maybe just future proofing by aligning the ROW so that 150mph won't be a problem should ever it be required?


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## west point

There does not to seem very long distances to 150. Then you have the 2 factors requiring more energy. First is the Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass times Velocity squared. Then you have air resistance times the aerodynamic resistance which is the velocity cubed. -


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> To get to this speed, Brightline plans to eliminate the 4000hp limit on their Chargers. I think it might be a relatively simple adjustment per my contact. 8800hp is a whole lot of power for a 4-10 car train! I don't know how true the next part of what I was told is. It seems there are what Siemens calls high speed trucks already fitted to the Venture cars and the Chargers. With some tweaking, I was told these could be made suitable for the increase in speed from the existing max truck design speed of 135-137mph to 150mph. So it appears that the Venture trainsets are capable of more than what the public specification documents reveal!


I have suspected all along that the cars are fully Tier III compliant and capable of speeds above 125mph commercially without running afoul of any FRA regs.


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## west point

jis said:


> I have suspected all along that the cars are fully Tier III compliant and capable of speeds above 125mph commercially without running afoul of any FRA regs.


That is my suspenction as well. But they will have to be tested to the planned speed + 10 %. The only place they can be tested as of now is the part of the NEC between Newark and Trenton that at present supports that speed. Would love to see a Bright line train doing that. Call out the PR, general public, and railfans.


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## jis

west point said:


> That is my suspenction as well. But they will have to be tested to the planned speed + 10 %. The only place they can be tested as of now is the part of the NEC between Newark and Trenton that at present supports that speed. Would love to see a Bright line train doing that. Call out the PR, general public, and railfans.


There are two segments of track one in RI and one in Mass where they have or are about to raise the speed limit from 150mph to 160mph too, of course only for the new Acelas. The current Acelas have been running at 150mph up their since their introduction I believe.

And maybe they can do some testing in Pueblo too.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> There are two segments of track one in RI and one in Mass where they have or are about to raise the speed limit from 150mph to 160mph too, of course only for the new Acelas. The current Acelas have been running at 150mph up their since their introduction I believe.
> 
> And maybe they can do some testing in Pueblo too.


It was implied by my source (who is a longtime railroader who knows what they are talking about) that any testing for the 150mph speeds would be performed on the tracks to Tampa. I have read that the FRA can give a special waiver to operate trains above the maximum speed allowed by the class type of track that was built. In this case, could Brightline do testing at the required +10% over the proposed maximum operating speed of 150mph on the class 7 track (or maybe it will be built to higher than class 7?) to be built between Tampa and I-Drive?


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## Anderson

How would fuel consumption, etc. look for those speeds? [And what would they have to do if they wanted to bump Cocoa-Orlando from 125 to 150?]


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> How would fuel consumption, etc. look for those speeds? [And what would they have to do if they wanted to bump Cocoa-Orlando from 125 to 150?]


I believe that is what they will be looking at during their proposed tests, fuel consumption that is. Of course this is all years away so it is not written in stone yet.

I don't know exactly what the design difference is between class 7 and class 8 track is nor how easy it would be to convert class 7 track to class 8. Cocoa to MCO along SR528 is mostly class 7 except near each end.

I think the point that was made to me about the length of the straight sections on the planned Tampa route being important to Brightline, indicates that sustained running for some miles will yield a better cost/benefit ratio than a short section, as implied was the case on the SR528 route.

An increase of 25mph (from 125 to 150) over a 40 mile length decreases the travel time by just over 3 minutes (from .32 to .267 hours). No one knows yet exactly how much of the Tampa route would be suitable for 150mph speeds. 50 miles maybe 60 would be my guess... I would have to drag up the old track charts that were part of the EIS for FL HSR back in 2009/2010 to get a better idea.

So it might be that this news of running at 150 mph might be more for marketing purposes than anything else.


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## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I believe that is what they will be looking at during their proposed tests, fuel consumption that is. Of course this is all years away so it is not written in stone yet.
> 
> I don't know exactly what the design difference is between class 7 and class 8 track is nor how easy it would be to convert class 7 track to class 8. Cocoa to MCO along SR528 is mostly class 7 except near each end.
> 
> I think the point that was made to me about the length of the straight sections on the planned Tampa route being important to Brightline, indicates that sustained running for some miles will yield a better cost/benefit ratio than a short section, as implied was the case on the SR528 route.
> 
> An increase of 25mph (from 125 to 150) over a 40 mile length decreases the travel time by just over 3 minutes (from .32 to .267 hours). No one knows yet exactly how much of the Tampa route would be suitable for 150mph speeds. 50 miles maybe 60 would be my guess... I would have to drag up the old track charts that were part of the EIS for FL HSR back in 2009/2010 to get a better idea.
> 
> So it might be that this news of running at 150 mph might be more for marketing purposes than anything else.


Wasn't there also some (historic) issue with diesel locomotives getting burned out from running so hard (which is why you had things like the Turboliners worked up)?

One thing that stands out here is that if this makes sense, it sounds like Brightline might at least be able to start with a diesel-only service out in CA, with an eye towards shifting to electric when they can have an electrified line all the way into LA. Per that report they issued a few years back, this would also leave them better-positioned to make a grab at the Surfliners (since they seem to have expressed interest in that route - it was one of the six they indicated as options to pursue) if they can just run trains through.


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## west point

How about this : Schedule for 125 and when behind schedule run up to 150 to maintain japan type on time performance?


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## Brystar41

Hi Y'all!

I used Brightline yesterday going from Miami to West Palm Beach, and I have to say it's a fantastic train ride. I love the service on board, and the stations are top-notch. Also, the Siemens cars are fantastic, and I hope Amtrak orders some for its long-distance routes and keep their AC-64 for the continued runs to NYC Penn.

Anyways I am looking forward to the expansion to Orlando is much needed, and it's something I would enjoy since it will make it easier to go to the Theme parks (Disney, Universal, and such).

Also wanted to say I am from Miami, FL, but since I don't use the train much because I live way out in the suburbs so it's not an easy reach but glad to see there is another option besides Tri-Rail to get to WPB. I do like that Brightline's WPB is at the downtown section, while at Tri-Rail's station, you have to walk to get to the CBD of WPB or get one of those trolley services they have.


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## VentureForth

west point said:


> How about this : Schedule for 125 and when behind schedule run up to 150 to maintain japan type on time performance?


It's easy to maintain schedule with max speeds, if you don't have external influencers. Honestly, I'm quite surprised at how poorly the existing Brightline on-time performance between WPB and MIA is. Yes, there are freight trains, but they are fewer and further apart than our Amtrak Class I hosts typically are. and they control all their own dispatching. I don't look at them every day, so they could be improving. But scheduling a 25 MPH buffer into the schedule can only recoup a few minutes here and there, not the "really" late 15-20 minutes+ that you often see.

I think I DO know what the cause of delays on Brightline are. I think the majority is the inability to disembark and load passengers efficiently. When I rode, people sat in their seats until the train came to a full stop. This made folks on the platform think that no one was getting off. So they board and when the folks getting off are finally ready to get out, there's congestion and confusion in the vestibule. It's a cultural thing, I think - as many Americans aren't used to fast-turnaround loading and unloading on non-commuter type trains.


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## cirdan

west point said:


> How about this : Schedule for 125 and when behind schedule run up to 150 to maintain japan type on time performance?



I think the Japan type response would be to use Japan type methods to make sure trains don't fall behind in the schedule in the first place.


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## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> I think I DO know what the cause of delays on Brightline are. I think the majority is the inability to disembark and load passengers efficiently. When I rode, people sat in their seats until the train came to a full stop. This made folks on the platform think that no one was getting off. So they board and when the folks getting off are finally ready to get out, there's congestion and confusion in the vestibule. It's a cultural thing, I think - as many Americans aren't used to fast-turnaround loading and unloading on non-commuter type trains.


Maybe a solution here would be a passenger flow system, a bit like in the old PCC streetcars, in which passengers board at one door and disembark at the other so you never get a counterflow in the aisle. Or as you get on many urban buses for that matter.

Just a crazy idea.


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## bonzoesc

VentureForth said:


> I think I DO know what the cause of delays on Brightline are. I think the majority is the inability to disembark and load passengers efficiently. When I rode, people sat in their seats until the train came to a full stop. This made folks on the platform think that no one was getting off. So they board and when the folks getting off are finally ready to get out, there's congestion and confusion in the vestibule. It's a cultural thing, I think - as many Americans aren't used to fast-turnaround loading and unloading on non-commuter type trains.


My flight to Miami last week had an FA on the PA telling people to sit back down while we were still a few dozen feet from the terminal, and I can't imagine there are many Brightline passengers who haven't had that same experience.

I got a confused look from a few people on the Metrorail yesterday for choosing to stand up (under the cold air vent by the middle doors) for a two stop ride instead of sitting down, too.


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## west point

OTP not good? Is there any construction areas that have some slow orders? Especially the additional stations being built. As of now there is only one intermediate station which is Ft Lauderdale at present. Is Brightline expecting that FTL may change after full operation so is not doing anything now to speed up station dwell?


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## daybeers

OTP is not an issue I've heard with Brightline; interesting that they're sometimes 15-20 minutes late! That's too bad and seems easily avoided.


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## cirdan

If the Ft Lauderdale stop is the problem, this doesn't bode well for the future, with many further intermediate stops being added. Brightline needs to get any avoidable delays sorted asap.


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## jis

It would be interesting to see if Brightline can get laid back Floridians to start behaving like snappy North Easterners on the NEC  Or instead they will accommodate by loosening their schedules some. An interesting sociological experiment.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> It would be interesting to see if Brightline can get laid back Floridians to start behaving like snappy North Easterners on the NEC  Or instead they will accommodate by loosening their schedules some. An interesting sociological experiment.


The more they need to loosen their schedule, the greater the penalty of adding intermediate stops. I wonder if the envisaged journey times will be feasible at all.


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## joelkfla

I don't know whether holding boarding passengers back would be a net gain or a net loss, given the time to walk to the cars. I haven't been to FTL, but IIRC there wasn't a lot of space at the bottom of the escalator at WPB, so they'd either need to hold them at the top, or cordon off an area on the platform.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> The more they need to loosen their schedule, the greater the penalty of adding intermediate stops. I wonder if the envisaged journey times will be feasible at all.


Since most likely not all trains will stop at all intermediate stops this issue may not be as severe as one could think it is. I think it will be a miracle if they can stick to the promised 3 hours between Miami and Orlando. They are yet to achieve the promised one hour schedule between Miami and WPB AFAICT.

In my experience all this boarding coutnerflow etc. is not the problem. The problem is that people disembarking decide to get up from their seats three minutes after the train comes to a stop, following the standard Florida laid back protocol. If you do not try to hurry them off the train and just hold boarding passengers off instead, all that will happen is that they will rise from their seats 6 minutes after arrival 



joelkfla said:


> I don't know whether holding boarding passengers back would be a net gain or a net loss, given the time to walk to the cars. I haven't been to FTL, but IIRC there wasn't a lot of space at the bottom of the escalator at WPB, so they'd either need to hold them at the top, or cordon off an area on the platform.


I think holding departing passengers at the escalators would be a net loss. The platforms are plenty wide and the car and door positions are marked on the platform and the whole idea is to have the boarding passengers ready and positioned to board before arrival. They could manage the flow within the car possibly by assigning boarding doors in the ticket, but beyond that the problem is getting disembarking passengers out of their seats before or by the time the train comes to a stop and not a few minutes after that.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Since most likely not all trains will stop at all intermediate stops this issue may not be as severe as one could think it is. I think it will be a miracle if they can stick to the promised 3 hours between Miami and Orlando. They are yet to achieve the promised one hour schedule between Miami and WPB AFAICT.



I've said this before but I think it could be quite damaging if select trains started skipping stops. Right now headways are pretty much hourly with trains calling at the same minute past the hour which makes it easy to memorize schedules. If you start breaking through that you get all sorts of ugly and complicated things happening. It would also mean passengers using those stops would lose service and passengers going from one intermediate stop to another might have complicated connections, all of which would reduce overall attractiveness. 

Maybe if you start running a second service in parallel as a faster service rather than cannibalizing the existing service, this might work. But There won't be enough trains for that.


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## jis

And I have been saying all along that they will not make the marketing 3 hour number. So whether they miss it by 10 minutes or 20 minutes won't matter that much.

Initially there will be a single hourly service and they will make about four stops on the way. Stops other than Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach won't really have as much ridership at the Brightline fares. Those stations will have much higher ridership on the TriRail service.


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## west point

Delays getting off may be a passnger memory problem. Arlines always tell passengers to remain seated until arriving at gate, So many passengers will not feel train stopping with a good engineer. Hey no train person said we have arrived. Did not realize it before when`I know station is close I get up, gather belongings. Often am one of first to get off even even when sitting in middle or non exiting end.

EDIT: Of course there are those who should not get up until they are certain train has stopped.


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## Brian_tampa

The latest FDFC board meeting was held yesterday to authorize Brightline to sell up to $1B in private activity bonds for phase 2 only. The authorization was approved. Up to $500M for new money and $500M for refunded money.

I have attached the meeting document which includes many interesting bits of info. Especially pages 81-91 of the pdf document which describes in some detail current and future plans.

There is an organization chart just before this section that clearly shows the relationships between all BL companies and affiliates.

Of note, they mention speeds in excess of 150mph for the Orlando to Tampa segment. So maybe they are aiming for greater than just 150?

Also they have 2025 ridership projections for the Orlando to Miami route. About 2.3M  (Edit) 4.3M riders between Orlando and South Florida, over 3.5M for within South Florida destinations.


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## Sauve850

VentureForth said:


> It's easy to maintain schedule with max speeds, if you don't have external influencers. Honestly, I'm quite surprised at how poorly the existing Brightline on-time performance between WPB and MIA is. Yes, there are freight trains, but they are fewer and further apart than our Amtrak Class I hosts typically are. and they control all their own dispatching. I don't look at them every day, so they could be improving. But scheduling a 25 MPH buffer into the schedule can only recoup a few minutes here and there, not the "really" late 15-20 minutes+ that you often see.
> 
> I think I DO know what the cause of delays on Brightline are. I think the majority is the inability to disembark and load passengers efficiently. When I rode, people sat in their seats until the train came to a full stop. This made folks on the platform think that no one was getting off. So they board and when the folks getting off are finally ready to get out, there's congestion and confusion in the vestibule. It's a cultural thing, I think - as many Americans aren't used to fast-turnaround loading and unloading on non-commuter type trains.


On my many rides from WPB to both Ft. Laud and Miami I have not experienced these delays.


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## joelkfla

I don't understand. 

P.27 says, "Construction of these new stations in Aventura and Boca Raton is on track to be completed and ready for operation in the fourth quarter of 2022."

P.28 says, "The platform tower will provide our passengers access to the bridge to the train station as well as the contemplated bridge to Aventura Mall. Although the platform tower is not a part of our fourth quarter 2022 completion milestone, it is expected to be completed shortly thereafter and in advance of the contractual obligation to be completed by October 2023."

If the Aventura platform tower will not be completed in 2022, how will passengers get to and from the platform when it's ready for operation in 4Q 2022?


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## joelkfla

This is the first I've heard that there are plans for an APM connecting the Orlando station to Lake Nona Medical City. ("Preliminary Limited Offering Memorandum" p.38; PDF p.85)


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## Brian_tampa

joelkfla said:


> This is the first I've heard that there are plans for an APM connecting the Orlando station to Lake Nona Medical City. ("Preliminary Limited Offering Memorandum" p.38; PDF p.85)


I remember hearing of this some time ago. I always assumed it was "pie in the sky" dreaming much like the many monorail projects proposed to go from the airport to the convention center or Disney over the years. Not sure how likely this is to ever happen.


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## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> I remember hearing of this some time ago. I always assumed it was "pie in the sky" dreaming much like the many monorail projects proposed to go from the airport to the convention center or Disney over the years. Not sure how likely this is to ever happen.


Funny, then, that Brightline would mention a practically dead project in its bond offering.


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## daybeers

As a northeast rider, it kinda baffles me there are delays due to passengers disembarking. On any train here, there's a line halfway down the car before the train stops. Maybe because the Venture coaches are smooth and quiet? Maybe because people aren't used to quickly getting off a vehicle they're not driving (be it a plane or a train)? I just really don't understand this issue and why it exists; aren't there staff onboard that can usher people to gather their belongings and head to the end of the car earlier?

It's another world down there...


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## cirdan

daybeers said:


> As a northeast rider, it kinda baffles me there are delays due to passengers disembarking. On any train here, there's a line halfway down the car before the train stops. Maybe because the Venture coaches are smooth and quiet? Maybe because people aren't used to quickly getting off a vehicle they're not driving (be it a plane or a train)? I just really don't understand this issue and why it exists; aren't there staff onboard that can usher people to gather their belongings and head to the end of the car earlier?
> 
> It's another world down there...


Humans are essentially herd animals.

If one or two people start getting up, others will take note and do so too. It's the same on airplanes. When the plane has reached the gate position (or people assume it has) but the cabin crew have not yet said anything, or switched off the seatbelt sign, all it takes is one or two individuals to start getting up and getting their bags out of the overhead bins and many others will follow. Ditto with removing facemasks etc etc. There are psychological experiments showing people can copy even the absurdest actions if there are sufficient others doing them already. This can be used for both positive and negative behaviors.

The NEC has a lot of seasoned riders, and any newbies will be dragged along with the flow.

Maybe it just takes time until FEC has seasoned riders too.


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## VentureForth

Well, after spot checking a few trains (it's hard because they don't show previous day's data), it looks like OTP on Brightline has improved considerably since rebooting last year. But, the time is padded by around 12 minutes over their goal of 1 hour.

Honestly, I figured a great number of South Florida residents are NEC transplants and would be better versed in train etiquette and processes.


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## railiner

Just took Tri Rail back from Fort Lauderdale Airport Station (Dania), to West Palm Beach, and the local Tri Rail riders seemed to gather at the doors before the train came to various stops. It was the air traveler's, with lots of bags that hung back until the doors opened, and others got off. Our train was running late due to single tracking and signal issues, but once back on the regular northbound track, we got up to full track speed, and even managed to make up about 6 minutes of the lost time...


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## AmtrakWPK

joelkfla said:


> This is the first I've heard that there are plans for an APM connecting the Orlando station to Lake Nona Medical City. ("Preliminary Limited Offering Memorandum" p.38; PDF p.85)


Intriguing. It's about 3.5 miles as the crow flies between the MCO intermodal station (at the very south end of the airport) and the medical city at Nona, or closer to 6 miles if they parallel all the existing roads. (I spent some time with Google Maps and a Florida Atlas & Gazetteer.) The Lake Nona medical city IS a pretty large and dense area of medical installations - a large NeMours Children's Hospital, a separate NeMours Children's Health Center, the UCF Medical School, a U.F. College of Pharmacy, the UCF Lake Nona Hospital, the UCF Health Sciences Library, the Burnett School of Biomedical Sciences, a LabCorp facility, and the new V.A. Hospital, along with research facilities, plus non-medical businesses including several restaurants, food courts, hotels, Signature Flight Support (business headquarters). Within a mile of there they've already built a thousand+ residences, with support businesses like grocery stores, and I suspect that area will continue to expand even more - there's room, and it is directly served by the Eastern Beltway around Orlando (State Road 417 toll road) as well as some secondary roads. The various medical facilities are on the East side of the 417 - the far side of it from the airport, but all are within sight of the 417. There is an existing automated 'people mover' that uses the roads inside the Nona medical area - the size of a small bus or large van, with no driver, to shuttle folks between the various locations. A people mover that would provide airport access without having to drive to MCO and park there would be a HUGE boon to the Nona area, especially the residents. I could easily see a large 'park and fly' parking lot located somewhere close by.


----------



## VentureForth

AmtrakWPK said:


> Intriguing. It's about 3.5 miles as the crow flies between the MCO intermodal station (at the very south end of the airport) and the medical city at Nona, or closer to 6 miles if they parallel all the existing roads. (I spent some time with Google Maps and a Florida Atlas & Gazetteer.) The Lake Nona medical city IS a pretty large and dense area of medical installations - a large NeMours Children's Hospital, a separate NeMours Children's Health Center, the UCF Medical School, a U.F. College of Pharmacy, the UCF Lake Nona Hospital, the UCF Health Sciences Library, the Burnett School of Biomedical Sciences, a LabCorp facility, and the new V.A. Hospital, along with research facilities, plus non-medical businesses including several restaurants, food courts, hotels, Signature Flight Support (business headquarters). Within a mile of there they've already built a thousand+ residences, with support businesses like grocery stores, and I suspect that area will continue to expand even more - there's room, and it is directly served by the Eastern Beltway around Orlando (State Road 417 toll road) as well as some secondary roads. The various medical facilities are on the East side of the 417 - the far side of it from the airport, but all are within sight of the 417. There is an existing automated 'people mover' that uses the roads inside the Nona medical area - the size of a small bus or large van, with no driver, to shuttle folks between the various locations. A people mover that would provide airport access without having to drive to MCO and park there would be a HUGE boon to the Nona area, especially the residents. I could easily see a large 'park and fly' parking lot located somewhere close by.


Disney is also planning their Parks headquarters in that area. It was imminent, now pushed back a few years. But with Disney shunning Brightline, perhaps it will be used by those who appreciate it.


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakWPK said:


> There is an existing automated 'people mover' that uses the roads inside the Nona medical area - the size of a small bus or large van, with no driver, to shuttle folks between the various locations.


It's an "autonomous" road vehicle, as you said like a small van. I think the capacity was around 10, seated around the perimeter; no standees allowed. It does have a driver though, or "attendant". They don't trust it to be fully autonomous, or at least didn't when I visited last year.

The attendant parked it and pulled out from the curb at the terminals, driving with a joystick. They only trusted it to drive itself when it was out on the street, and the attendant remained ready to take control. It traveled noticeably slower than the actual APM that runs between OIA's South & North Terminals. I don't recall exactly; I think it was around 10 or 15mph. It was also quite warm; they kept the a/c on low to preserve battery power. The attendant turned it up when I commented, but it didn't make much of a difference on the short ride.

Perhaps it's become speedier and more autonomous since my visit.


----------



## west point

Sun Rail also goes to Orlando regional Health. Trama level - 1 with 6 - 8 blocks of different sprcialities.


----------



## AmtrakWPK

joelkfla said:


> It's an "autonomous" road vehicle, as you said like a small van. I think the capacity was around 10, seated around the perimeter; no standees allowed. It does have a driver though, or "attendant". They don't trust it to be fully autonomous, or at least didn't when I visited last year.
> 
> The attendant parked it and pulled out from the curb at the terminals, driving with a joystick. They only trusted it to drive itself when it was out on the street, and the attendant remained ready to take control. It traveled noticeably slower than the actual APM that runs between OIA's South & North Terminals. I don't recall exactly; I think it was around 10 or 15mph. It was also quite warm; they kept the a/c on low to preserve battery power. The attendant turned it up when I commented, but it didn't make much of a difference on the short ride.
> 
> Perhaps it's become speedier and more autonomous since my visit.


I've never used it, but I did watch the initial news report videos on local TV which indicated it was going to be autonomous with no driver. So thanks for that info. I've been down to the VA hospital a couple of times (took a fellow Vet down there for a procedure and followup) but that was several years ago, before they introduced those vehicles. I did also see news reports of the various eateries that were opening up in that medical complex area and they looked intriguing. 
I'm in Casselberry so it's quite a trip down the 417 for me to get there and with all the construction/obstruction/constriction/destruction/confusion they've been doing on the 417 I have pretty much sworn off it for the duration. I live in hopes of having that SunRail connection into MCO so I can eventually avoid the torture of driving to MCO and parking down there.


----------



## VentureForth

Hate to call this "official" news that they are pushed back to next year, but it's a published article, so here goes:









Brightline service through Vero to Orlando pushed back to next year - Vero News


Brightline won’t complete construction on its $2.8 billion extension of high-speed passenger train tracks to Orlando by the end of 2022, as once expected, a company spokeswoman said. Instead, construction … Read More »




veronews.com


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Hate to call this "official" news that they are pushed back to next year, but it's a published article, so here goes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline service through Vero to Orlando pushed back to next year - Vero News
> 
> 
> Brightline won’t complete construction on its $2.8 billion extension of high-speed passenger train tracks to Orlando by the end of 2022, as once expected, a company spokeswoman said. Instead, construction … Read More »
> 
> 
> 
> 
> veronews.com


It was divulged "officially" here: Brightline Florida update


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## VentureForth

Latest from the Roaming Railfan:


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## Brian_tampa

I recently came in possession of the appendix file showing the type and location of the various safety improvements along the FECR between Cocoa and Miami Central Station. These improvements will be funded by the recent RAISE grant of $25M along with $10M each from Brightline and FDOT. Due to AU upload file size limitations I have broken the file into two parts. The first part covers the northern half and the second part covers the southern half of the Cocoa to Miami corridor.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Download is from the Bloomberg News article which is free to access on a per month article basis:

Fortress-Backed Brightline Rail Sells $770 Million of Debt at Steep Yields

It appears Brightline will be able to complete phase 2 on schedule as this will give them enough money now, per their largest private investor as quoted in the news report.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Brightline Announces Boca Raton Station Will Open In 2022, Station Now Topped Off from NARP


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## VentureForth

danasgoodstuff said:


> Brightline Announces Boca Raton Station Will Open In 2022, Station Now Topped Off from NARP


I presume all trains all stops? Even harder to keep that 1 hr Miami-West Palm goal.


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## Brian_tampa

Edit: this was my first trip along SR528 since Brightline began construction several years ago.

I took a trip to Cocoa Beach on Tuesday, August 16 and can report the following:

Approximately 50 or more Herzog hopper cars are stored on one of the tracks north of the Orlando station. It was a mix of loads and empties.

There was a fully loaded rail train near the OUC railroad connecting track. The train actually began west of the switch near the Monument Parkway bridge.

There is a short section of ROW without ties and rail between just west of the St John's River Bridge and the junction of SR528 and SR407 (the point where you can go to Titusville or Cocoa).

The wildlife crossing just west of the St John's River Bridge has been fenced off on both sides of the crossing bridge. Not sure why. It seems that wildlife can't pass under the bridge if there are fences on either side. I need to ask Brightline why this is.

Not many workers seen along the 528 stretch on this particular day. Most were working on the east end just west of the I-95 bridge.

A lot of ballast tamping has yet to be done on the recently ballasted track sections west of the St John's River bridge.

Installation of trackside signals appears to be complete. Unknown if the fiber optic connections linking them all together are done.

One observation that struck me is how steep the approach grades are to all the rail bridges along SR528. I have never seen a heavy rail line with such grades! Only on light rail lines have I seen these kinds of grades.

Another obsevation is how weird it looks to see a rail line this close to a major highway and at the same elevation. I'm referring to the section of SR528 that is owned by FDOT. I can't recall another highway like this where the track is maybe 50 ft at most from the pavement edge.


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## VentureForth

With regards to the wildlife crossing, it's fenced of because there is no passage under 528 yet. They will have to raise 528, then they can unfence the crossing.

Pass by here weekly and I can't wait to see that last mile or so of rail put in place!


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> Edit: this was my first trip along SR528 since Brightline began construction several years ago.
> 
> I took a trip to Cocoa Beach on Tuesday, August 16 and can report the following:
> 
> Approximately 50 or more Herzog hopper cars are stored on one of the tracks north of the Orlando station. It was a mix of loads and empties.
> 
> There was a fully loaded rail train near the OUC railroad connecting track. The train actually began west of the switch near the Monument Parkway bridge.
> 
> There is a short section of ROW without ties and rail between just west of the St John's River Bridge and the junction of SR528 and SR407 (the point where you can go to Titusville or Cocoa).
> 
> The wildlife crossing just west of the St John's River Bridge has been fenced off on both sides of the crossing bridge. Not sure why. It seems that wildlife can't pass under the bridge if there are fences on either side. I need to ask Brightline why this is.
> 
> Not many workers seen along the 528 stretch on this particular day. Most were working on the east end just west of the I-95 bridge.
> 
> A lot of ballast tamping has yet to be done on the recently ballasted track sections west of the St John's River bridge.
> 
> Installation of trackside signals appears to be complete. Unknown if the fiber optic connections linking them all together are done.
> 
> One observation that struck me is how steep the approach grades are to all the rail bridges along SR528. I have never seen a heavy rail line with such grades! Only on light rail lines have I seen these kinds of grades.
> 
> Another obsevation is how weird it looks to see a rail line this close to a major highway and at the same elevation. I'm referring to the section of SR528 that is owned by FDOT. I can't recall another highway like this where the track is maybe 50 ft at most from the pavement edge.


I think I-64 and the CSX Peninsula Subdivision have similar spacing for a bit. There's also a chunk of the A-Line along I-95 in South Carolina, and there's one point where the A-Line runs right down the middle of I-195 in Richmond.

[Not to mention, the NS mainline parallels US-460 for like 50 miles.]


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## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> I think I-64 and the CSX Peninsula Subdivision have similar spacing for a bit. There's also a chunk of the A-Line along I-95 in South Carolina, and there's one point where the A-Line runs right down the middle of I-195 in Richmond.
> 
> [Not to mention, the NS mainline parallels US-460 for like 50 miles.]


I forgot about I-195 in Richmond as I have been on the Silver Palm/Palmetto from Tampa back in 1998 and 2002. Where in South Carolina does the A-Line parallel I-95?

I guess what makes the railroad next to SR528 so jarring visually is that I have always experienced that drive with just vegetation along the highway. Trust me, it is strange to see new signal gantries and modern concrete ties and 136lb rail right next to the highway!

I should clarify that the Herzog ballast hoppers at MCO were located near the existing airport terminals A & B and stretched for some distance along the northbound lanes of John Fuqua Blvd that runs through the airport.

One interesting feature is that the fencing along the CFX owned portion is the black coated fencing material whereas the FDOT portion further east which is close to the highway is the standard galvanized material. As well, all of the concrete walls are painted yellowish with some green sections along the CFX portion whereas the FDOT portion is bare concrete wall sections. I suppose Brightline had to spend extra money to abide by the CFX specifications! LOL


----------



## Qapla

VentureForth said:


> With regards to the wildlife crossing, it's fenced of because there is no passage under 528 yet. They will have to raise 528, then they can unfence the crossing.
> 
> Pass by here weekly and I can't wait to see that last mile or so of rail put in place!



A number of years back, just south of Gainesville, along US 441 at Paynes Prairie, there was a problem with alligators being on the highway while crossing from one side to the other. They decided to put some "openings" under the road so the alligators could cross under the road and alleviate the issue of car-vs-gator that had caused several accidents.

Only thing was, no one had told the alligators to use the new passages and they kept crossing on the road.

The solution was to fence the area along the road on both sides. It worked! The gators soon learned the new passages and have been using them ever since.

I'm sure, once they build a way for animals to cross under 528 that the animals will soon learn how to use it - however, they may need to leave the fences in place to force them to use the passages ... left to their own, they will continue to cross in traffic


----------



## Brian_tampa

Qapla said:


> A number of years back, just south of Gainesville, along US 441 at Paynes Prairie, there was a problem with alligators being on the highway while crossing from one side to the other. They decided to put some "openings" under the road so the alligators could cross under the road and alleviate the issue of car-vs-gator that had caused several accidents.
> 
> Only thing was, no one had told the alligators to use the new passages and they kept crossing on the road.
> 
> The solution was to fence the area along the road on both sides. It worked! The gators soon learned the new passages and have been using them ever since.
> 
> I'm sure, once they build a way for animals to cross under 528 that the animals will soon learn how to use it - however, they may need to leave the fences in place to force them to use the passages ... left to their own, they will continue to cross in traffic


That reminds me of a drive back home to Tampa from Ft Pierce about 15-20 years ago a few miles east of the Kissimmee River bridge on SR60. I had the misfortune of driving across a baby alligator that was maybe 3 or 4 feet long going across the two lane highway. There was oncoming traffic and thankfully it was not at night! 

I have also encountered loose cattle on rural highway ROW's on very dark roads in interior SW Florida as well at night...

Any other AU members from Florida have similar wildlife stories while driving around the state?


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## west point

Many years ago driving a 15 passenger window van. Never saw deer hit left rear quarter panel. Passenger did. Only evidence was 3 deer hair stuck in the metal trim. Took van to insurance agent next day to document. Cost insurance $2200.00


----------



## VentureForth

Brian_tampa said:


> Any other AU members from Florida have similar wildlife stories while driving around the state?


When we first moved to Melbourne I saw a black bear roadkill followed by an alligator roadkill on US-192 just west of I-95.

So you also mentioned the black fencing at MCO. I believe this is to mask the trains headlights from blinding oncoming traffic taking the 528 exit from Jeff Fuqua.


----------



## Brian_tampa

VentureForth said:


> So you also mentioned the black fencing at MCO. I believe this is to mask the trains headlights from blinding oncoming traffic taking the 528 exit from Jeff FuFuqua.


The black chainlink fencing was everywhere even miles east of the airport, which makes me believe it is a CFX design specification. Honestly, I do not recall the type fencing on that particular curve exiting the airport. I do think the bottom part of the barrier along the tracks was a low concrete wall. I have attached a Google maps streetview image showing a special kind of fencing installed at that curve. Note the painted concrete wall.

A similar, but broader, curve east of the St John's River bridge (on the FDOT owned section) where the eastbound lanes of SR528 curve to right with the tracks on the right has no special fencing installed.


----------



## joelkfla

Brian_tampa said:


> The black chainlink fencing was everywhere even miles east of the airport, which makes me believe it is a CFX design specification. Honestly, I do not recall the type fencing on that particular curve exiting the airport. I do think the bottom part of the barrier along the tracks was a low concrete wall. I have attached a Google maps streetview image showing a special kind of fencing installed at that curve. Note the painted concrete wall.
> 
> A similar, but broader, curve east of the St John's River bridge (on the FDOT owned section) where the eastbound lanes of SR528 curve to right with the tracks on the right has no special fencing installed.


The wall is not just painted; it has a horizontal stripe molded in. Yes, that does look typical of CFX design.


----------



## MARC Rider

Brian_tampa said:


> Any other AU members from Florida have similar wildlife stories while driving around the state?


Hey, it's not just Florida with this problem. My mother-in-law once had a collision with a deer in suburban Maryland that totaled her car. I had a number of roadrunners in West Texas fly right into the front of my car while I was driving along at 75 mph in the dark.

And if you're on the NEC, if you're heading north out of the BWI rail station at the right time in the very early evening, it's like a safari ride through deer habitat if you look out the right side of the train.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> I had a number of roadrunners in West Texas fly right into the front of my car while I was driving along at 75 mph in the dark.


Was it an Acme Motors car? <meep meep>


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I forgot about I-195 in Richmond as I have been on the Silver Palm/Palmetto from Tampa back in 1998 and 2002. Where in South Carolina does the A-Line parallel I-95?
> 
> I guess what makes the railroad next to SR528 so jarring visually is that I have always experienced that drive with just vegetation along the highway. Trust me, it is strange to see new signal gantries and modern concrete ties and 136lb rail right next to the highway!
> 
> I should clarify that the Herzog ballast hoppers at MCO were located near the existing airport terminals A & B and stretched for some distance along the northbound lanes of John Fuqua Blvd that runs through the airport.
> 
> One interesting feature is that the fencing along the CFX owned portion is the black coated fencing material whereas the FDOT portion further east which is close to the highway is the standard galvanized material. As well, all of the concrete walls are painted yellowish with some green sections along the CFX portion whereas the FDOT portion is bare concrete wall sections. I suppose Brightline had to spend extra money to abide by the CFX specifications! LOL


Between Ridgeland and Coosawhatchie


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> Hey, it's not just Florida with this problem. My mother-in-law once had a collision with a deer in suburban Maryland that totaled her car. I had a number of roadrunners in West Texas fly right into the front of my car while I was driving along at 75 mph in the dark.
> 
> And if you're on the NEC, if you're heading north out of the BWI rail station at the right time in the very early evening, it's like a safari ride through deer habitat if you look out the right side of the train.


Other Wildlife to avoid on Texas Roads are Buzzards,Vultures and Armadillos!( Old Texas Political Saying: " The only thing in the Middle of the Road are Yellow Lines and Dead Armadillos!")


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Quite a few times I've seen Sandhill Cranes crossing the middle of the roads. Very pleasant to see them especially when I'm walking about. To the credit of motorists here, they actually stop to let the birds cross. Too bad they won't stop for humans crossing at a crosswalk. I haven't seen any roadkill involving those birds as far as I can remember and I've been living in this state for a while (too long).


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## Qapla

This Brightline construction update looks at the final rail train required for Brightline’s Orlando expansion.. This was the 26th rail train total, of that 20 were used for the double tracking of the Florida East Coast Railway corridor and 6 were for the new Orlando line. The rail from this train will complete the final few miles left of the Orlando line. This train had 50 pieces of rail that are each 1600ft long


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## Caesar La Rock

I know a few years isn't a lot of time, but its incredible how quickly the second phase to Orlando has progressed. After all the remaining construction wraps up the testing phase will begin. Glad we're all here to see this.


----------



## cirdan

Caesar La Rock said:


> I know a few years isn't a lot of time, but its incredible how quickly the second phase to Orlando has progressed. After all the remaining construction wraps up the testing phase will begin. Glad we're all here to see this.


I agree.

To their advantage though, they were working almost entirely on unbuilt land owned by, AFAIK, very few different owners, who furthermore, were cooperative.

On the Tampa extension, I expect this process to get a lot more complicated. I just hope it won't run into Texas Central style nimbyism.


----------



## Ziv

Qapla said:


> This Brightline construction update looks at the final rail train required for Brightline’s Orlando expansion.. This was the 26th rail train total, of that 20 were used for the double tracking of the Florida East Coast Railway corridor and 6 were for the new Orlando line. The rail from this train will complete the final few miles left of the Orlando line. This train had 50 pieces of rail that are each 1600ft long



What kind of stress would that put on the rail bed and the bogeys as this train goes around curves? I know steel flexes but this must push it pretty hard! 
I have to admit that i am confused by this.


----------



## Qapla

Here is a video showing a rail train in action


----------



## cirdan

Ziv said:


> What kind of stress would that put on the rail bed and the bogeys as this train goes around curves? I know steel flexes but this must push it pretty hard!
> I have to admit that i am confused by this.


The curvature looks crazy in the pictures but actually it's quite moderate if you take into account how it is spread over a great length of rail.

Rail itself is that flexible.

This is why, when it's put down, it needs so many ties, and the ties are embedded in ballast. Without those ties, the rail wouldn't stay put for very long,


----------



## west point

We may see testing Cocoa <> Orlando as soon as all rail is laid, tamped, and aligned. Slow speed testing can go on as stablization of the track is completed. Note the signal system is already in place and will just requirement to connect to rails. The slow testing will find some gliches. The FRA will of course supervise the overall testing up to its 125 MPH max speed Cocoa <> Orlando airport. Now will Palm Beach <> Cocoa 110 MPH testing be complete? Unknown?


----------



## bonzoesc

cirdan said:


> The curvature looks crazy in the pictures but actually it's quite moderate if you take into account how it is spread over a great length of rail.
> 
> Rail itself is that flexible.
> 
> This is why, when it's put down, it needs so many ties, and the ties are embedded in ballast. Without those ties, the rail wouldn't stay put for very long,


This video was low key a fascinating watch, seeing this huge machine pick up the rail and ties that _the 35 ton machine is moving on_ to re-arrange the ballast rocks that hold it in place. Flexing the rail in its strong dimension, over the wheelbase of the machine even.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Looks like Florida is going to apply for $3B in grants from the FTA for Central Florida passenger rail projects. The money will also include building the Brightline route beyond Disney to Tampa. Brightline will contribute to the matching funds required for the federal grant.

Leaders put big ambitions for Central Florida passenger rail growth on paper

Excerpts from the Orlando Sentinel article linked above:

The white paper advances three options on how to turn the
transportation dream into a reality. The first two call for breaking
the rail expansion into separate pieces and steps. The third
option, and popular front-runner, calls for doing everything as an
approximately $6 billion project.

“We are pretty confident we are going to get about half of this $6
billion project,” [Rep. Darren] Soto said.

The funding formula widely anticipated, though not determined,
would have the federal government cover 50 percent, the state
paying for 25 percent and local partners, including Brightline and
Universal, on the hook for 25 percent.

“It will be in the form of multiple grants through the infrastructure
law,” Soto said of the federal contribution. “There is 10 years of
funding. I don’t expect there to be one big announcement – like
‘here is $3 billion.’"


----------



## blueman271

Brian_tampa said:


> Looks like Florida is going to apply for $3B in grants from the FTA for Central Florida passenger rail projects. The money will also include building the Brightline route beyond Disney to Tampa. Brightline will contribute to the matching funds required for the federal grant.
> 
> Leaders put big ambitions for Central Florida passenger rail growth on paper
> 
> Excerpts from the Orlando Sentinel article linked above:
> 
> The white paper advances three options on how to turn the
> transportation dream into a reality. The first two call for breaking
> the rail expansion into separate pieces and steps. The third
> option, and popular front-runner, calls for doing everything as an
> approximately $6 billion project.
> 
> “We are pretty confident we are going to get about half of this $6
> billion project,” [Rep. Darren] Soto said.
> 
> The funding formula widely anticipated, though not determined,
> would have the federal government cover 50 percent, the state
> paying for 25 percent and local partners, including Brightline and
> Universal, on the hook for 25 percent.
> 
> “It will be in the form of multiple grants through the infrastructure
> law,” Soto said of the federal contribution. “There is 10 years of
> funding. I don’t expect there to be one big announcement – like
> ‘here is $3 billion.’"


I’m confused and I can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall. Are the taxpayers funding 75% of a project that will be mostly or entirely used by private businesses? That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.


----------



## Brian_tampa

blueman271 said:


> I’m confused and I can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall. Are the taxpayers funding 75% of a project that will be mostly or entirely used by private businesses? That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.


The matching state and local funds are 50% of the total cost of the Sunshine Corridor plus the Brightline Phase 3 project to Tampa from Disney World area. I assume that whatever Brightline spends on the route west from Disney to Tampa (which could easily be 25% of $6B) will go towards the local portion of the matching funds required by the grant terms. Also, Brightline will be leasing the Sunshine Corridor for use by their trains between Disney area and MCO, so that is also a consideration here on who pays for what.

Unlike sports stadiums, infrastructure projects such as this do have a public utility to them. In this case, by building Brightline to Tampa the state saves money on expanding I-4 as well as making this area more liveable than it otherwise would be.

The projects that this grant money is for will not be used primarily by Brightline - it is going to also be SunRail's new east-west corridor between MCO and Disney.

I have requested a copy of the white paper that FDOT sent to the FTA to find out more about where the money will be spent.

PS: if your browser supports "reader mode" like Opera does, then you can bypass the firewall on this and other websites such as the NYT online version as well.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

blueman271 said:


> That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.


If tax money goes to sports stadiums why shouldn’t it go to transportation systems?


----------



## blueman271

crescent-zephyr said:


> If tax money goes to sports stadiums why shouldn’t it go to transportation systems?


Tax money should absolutely go to transportation systems. What it shouldn’t do is go to projects designed to enrich the few. If a significant portion of the price for the Tampa line is going to be borne by the taxpayers then an equal percentage of the profit needs to be returned to them in some form. If Brightline wants to be a private company they can build their railroad using private funds. 

To be clear I am 100% for using tax money to fund public transit, schools, town centers, healthcare and really anything that serves the public good. I am against using tax money to build things like sports stadiums or “private” transportation systems that privatize their profits.


----------



## cirdan

blueman271 said:


> Tax money should absolutely go to transportation systems. What it shouldn’t do is go to projects designed to enrich the few. If a significant portion of the price for the Tampa line is going to be borne by the taxpayers then an equal percentage of the profit needs to be returned to them in some form. If Brightline wants to be a private company they can build their railroad using private funds.
> 
> To be clear I am 100% for using tax money to fund public transit, schools, town centers, healthcare and really anything that serves the public good. I am against using tax money to build things like sports stadiums or “private” transportation systems that privatize their profits.


It's a complicated argument by my take is a bit like this.

When government funds something like education, you could argue the government is enabling people to get better jobs and earn more money and so the people who benefit from education should give that money back to the taxpayer.

But in some way they already do, because people with more education do typically make more salary and thus pay more taxes. So quite possibly this investment in education is producing a net positive taxflow for the government. Of course at the end of the day this depends on the quality and appropriateness of the education being offered.

Maybe it is similar with a rail link. The rail link itself may be operated privately. But the profit the operating company channels back to its shareholders totally pales to insignificance in front of the broader societal benefits of there being a rail service. Including congestion relief, environmental benefits and also people being more productive by being able to use their time more effectively.

There is in my view no reason that people shouldn't be allowed to do well by doing good.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Time to steer the discussion back to Brightline plans and execution and away from general taxation and funding philosophy.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## JWM

I have to comment about the so-called curvature noted above. There is an old civil engineering term called "super elevation". My experience with it was on Seaboard's "Silver Meteor" in the 1960's. It was used to allow the "Meteor" and "Star" to take curves at higher speed. I remember once on the "Meteor" when it had to stop with the lounge car on a super elevated curve as we all grabbed out drinks before they ended up on the floor. At higher speed, nothing happened. Brightline will do fine so long as this old practice is updated and done right.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

Caesar La Rock said:


> I know a few years isn't a lot of time, but its incredible how quickly the second phase to Orlando has progressed. After all the remaining construction wraps up the testing phase will begin. Glad we're all here to see this.


private industry is pretty incredible sometimes


----------



## VentureForth

I was away on business for three weeks. Was excited to see the progress made. There is something on the entire roadbed now, even if nothing but ties. But I would guess less than three miles remain without rail and ballast in place. 

Maybe just because it's wet from all the rain, but the ballast seems to be more of a red granite rock than white. Seemed darker than normal.


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## Qapla

Some of the newer ballast rock has come from Canada instead of Georgia - and it is a different color/shade

This was mentioned in the Roaming Railfan's videos


----------



## jis

Incidentally the new Birghtline trains come equipped with a combo setup at the doors which have traps. With the trap raised stairs deploy, and with the traps down and bridge plate deploys from the trap Kinda neat.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Incidentally the new Birghtline trains come equipped with a combo setup at the doors which have traps. With the trap raised stairs deploy, and with the traps down and bridge plate deploys from the trap Kinda neat.


Didn't know the Brightline cars even had steps. Does this include the original delivery, or just those for the SF extension?


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Didn't know the Brightline cars even had steps. Does this include the original delivery, or just those for the SF extension?


They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.

Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.


----------



## jis

The "under" view of a Brightline train.... Those of us that were equipped with safety helmets and glasses were allowed to go down into the pit at the OIA VMF (Vehicle Maintenance Facility).

The first one is fo a motor truck and the second is a view from under the locomotive looking towards the train. The underside is surprisingly uncluttered and smooth.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.


I thought the seats had just been reupholstered. Have they actually been replaced?

What's changed about the cabin layout?


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I thought the seats had just been reupholstered. Have they actually been replaced?
> 
> What's changed about the cabin layout?


They were all equipped with new seats from a different manufacturer apparently.

I am not sure what exactly changed in the cabins. Apparently had to do with installation of new partial partition plexigalss between two groups of 4 seats in the middle of the car and such. Minor changes. Nothing major. But naturally the seat numbering and layout are the same between the old and the new since they do not plan to complicate their seat allocation software to keep track of different train layouts if they can help it.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> They were all equipped with new seats from a different manufacturer apparently.
> 
> I am not sure what exactly changed in the cabins. Apparently had to do with installation of new partial partition plexigalss between two groups of 4 seats in the middle of the car and such. Minor changes. Nothing major. But naturally the seat numbering and layout are the same between the old and the new since they do not plan to complicate their seat allocation software to keep track of different train layouts if they can help it.


Thx. I should probably take a drive down to WPB one of these days to check them out. (After I get my oil changed, which is way overdue.)


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## west point

jis said:


> Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.


Makes sense. That will certainly apply to any Amtrak cars.


----------



## cirdan

Qapla said:


> Some of the newer ballast rock has come from Canada instead of Georgia - and it is a different color/shade
> 
> This was mentioned in the Roaming Railfan's videos


I wonder what the motivation for that might be?

I can't imagine that bringing in rock from Canada is cheaper economically than using more local sources.

So maybe the Canadian rock has some other advantages?


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.
> 
> Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.


Makes sense. I just wonder why they didn't do this from the start.

I was on a TGV once, many many years ago, that was stopped somewhere near Avignon far away from any station. The conductor announced there was a problem with the brakes and that they were attempting to fix this. More time passed and finally they announced the problem could not be repaired and we were being asked to leave the train. There was a contraption that the train staff assembled out of parts stored in one of the cars and that took some time to assemble as the staff had obviously not done it very often and were not sure which part went where. But finally it was put together and formed a flight of about four or five steps and a handrail on both sides that allowed us to get off the train and down onto the gravel. There was only one of these so the entire train had to get off through this one door. We were herded off the line and through a nearby gate in the security fence to what seemed to me to be an extensive area of concrete slabs between farmers' fields that had probably been created specifically for this purpose, as I could not imagine what other purpose it might have served. After some more waiting, a convoy of buses arrived to pick us up. 

Having a trap and steps might have made that entire procedure faster and less painful.

Especially if you consider that in an alternative scenario might have been a fire on the train and you would have wanted to get people off quickly.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> There was a contraption that the train staff assembled out of parts stored in one of the cars and that took some time to assemble as the staff had obviously not done it very often and were not sure which part went where. But finally it was put together and formed a flight of about four or five steps and a handrail on both sides that allowed us to get off the train and down onto the gravel.


That sounds like the portable stairs on the Acela. The instructions in the SSM for deploying it sound quite complicated.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I wonder what the motivation for that might be?
> 
> I can't imagine that bringing in rock from Canada is cheaper economically than using more local sources.
> 
> So maybe the Canadian rock has some other advantages?


Labor shortage in GA caused the source in GA to be unable to meet the schedule requirements of Brightline by a very long shot. So they found someone else that could deliver on time and within their budget, whatever that is.


----------



## Qapla

jis said:


> the source in GA to be unable to meet the schedule requirements of Brightline




Yes, The Roaming Railfan explained that in the video where he talked about the ballast coming from Canada.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.
> 
> Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.


I suspect this is also going to be useful if (for example) the BL sets have to platform at a commuter platform because of some irregularity (e.g. another train has a mechanical issue at the exact wrong moment and blocks a track/switch on the way into MiamiCentral).


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## GDRRiley

jis said:


> They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.
> 
> Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.


seems like it would be far easier to just have all new cars done this way and then mix them with the old sets. I don't see cutting the frame as easy or FRA accepting it.
so 2 cars have steps while 2 don't on all 10 sets. All new cars can be this same way when they go to expand the sets so just a handful of coaches will lack stairs


----------



## Brian_tampa

With increased flooding during Saturday's deluge, Eau Gallie business owners blame Brightline - NewsBreak

I am curious of what the local AU members from Melbourne think about this. The local businesses claim that Brightline removed a 6ft deep ditch along the FECR right of way. And that this change is now causing flooding.

From what I can tell, a 6ft deep ditch would have been around 4ft lower than the 3 culvert pipes under the FECR tracks. How would that help move water from the west side of the tracks? On Google streetview there were 3 culvert pipes in the same location and probably at the same elevation.

To my eyes, the property owners were relying on the FECR ditch to drain water off their property. In the picture it showed the main drainage ditch that flows east to the tracks (not the ditch along the tracks but that drains a large area west of their properties) as being maybe 2ft lower than their property. And the trash bin blocked the drain pipes. I suspect the trash bin came from a property very nearby that was not secured. The road west of his business has a similar culvert that would not let the bin flow under.

It would appear their land is low lying and the rain event this past weekend was recorded as a once in several hundred year event per the local national weather service office in Melbourne. But yeah, blame a retaining wall that is no different from the previous embankment as far as height and drainage goes.


----------



## VentureForth

From the mayor of Melbourne:


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0291VEZKb6Wmc1vciXWa1oqaU5xFWsnj4GKw8988iVD5j9s24GAm45HE38pkEgM5JZl&id=100057990462655





> This morning I responded to flooding complaints on Avocado Avenue and it appears the recent Brightline construction has caused major issues for Melbourne residents and businesses. Our City recorded approximately 5 inches of rain at our Mallards Landing golf course on Lake Washington Blvd.
> 
> The flooding in that area got so bad that a large commercial dumpster floated away and found its way at several businesses away, finally floating into the drainage pipes installed by Brightline, where they got stuck under their newly constructed track. A city road also flooded out from their design disabling several cars in the middle of Avocado street. Rising water was recorded as high as 28” or waist high on their construction wall. Our police department also temporarily shut down the road for safety.
> 
> I will be calling on Brightline for a comprehensive report relating to the flooding impacts that their project has caused our City and remedies to correct them. As more rain is expected today, it is imperative that we address this as this also impacts water drainage upstream.


----------



## Brian_tampa

So the mayor of Melbourne has become an engineer now and knows everything about water hydraulics and how storm water drains from the surrounding land.

Perhaps this situation has arisen because the city has allowed unfettered development to occur without proper stormwater retention areas west of Avocado Street? The 3 concrete culvert pipes have been under the FECR right of way for some time it would seem.

From looking at the area on Google maps and streetview, it seems the city has invested minimal or no money in stormwater drainage in this area. There are no drainage ditches along Avocado Street. Does the mayor expect a private entity to provide drainage to property owners in the city?

How about the mayor asks his public works department for a comprehensive report on their failure to provide drainage along the city's streets? That would be something to behold.


----------



## jis

GDRRiley said:


> seems like it would be far easier to just have all new cars done this way and then mix them with the old sets. I don't see cutting the frame as easy or FRA accepting it.
> so 2 cars have steps while 2 don't on all 10 sets. All new cars can be this same way when they go to expand the sets so just a handful of coaches will lack stairs


They are very practical. So that is exactly what they might do when things settle down.


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> From the mayor of Melbourne:
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0291VEZKb6Wmc1vciXWa1oqaU5xFWsnj4GKw8988iVD5j9s24GAm45HE38pkEgM5JZl&id=100057990462655


In line with the above - what happens if/when Brightline produces a report in line with what @Brian_tampa noted? "We note the timing of this, but most of the problems are coming from things unrelated to us. Maybe five inches of rain was going to cause flooding no matter what?"

Bonus points if they can demonstrate that their work is mostly immaterial (e.g. demonstrating that similar flooding would have occurred no matter what) or, even better, that it actually _alleviated_ some of the issues.


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## VentureForth

So this area doesn't directly affect me, and I've only been in town for about 2 years. That being said, I think that the Mayor took a safe approach and asked Brightline to determine if their earthworks caused the excessive flooding. A local resident only cares about "this didn't happen before the construction," and it is reasonable for their mayor to ask the question.

We've also had several inches of rain every...single...day for over a week. Could very easily be the rain, but I'm not the expert to say whether it is unprecedented or not.


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> I think that the Mayor took a safe approach and asked Brightline to determine if their earthworks caused the excessive flooding



That would be cool if that's actually what the mayor said.



The Mayor Actually said:


> This morning I responded to flooding complaints on Avocado Avenue and it appears the *recent Brightline construction has caused *major issues for Melbourne residents and businesses.
> 
> I will be calling on Brightline for a comprehensive report relating to the flooding impacts that* their project has caused *our City and remedies to correct them.


You seem to have phrased it in the form of a question for him, while he appears to have his mind made up already.


----------



## Anderson

Since the dates are still "late 2022", is there any word when Boca Raton is likely to open? (That's more interesting to me than Aventura. I'm also curious on Orlando, but that's a bit further out.)


----------



## Qapla




----------



## Peterg

Is it better than Amtrak ?

If you have to get just around some of Florida ?


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## VentureForth

Ryan said:


> That would be cool if that's actually what the mayor said.
> 
> 
> You seem to have phrased it in the form of a question for him, while he appears to have his mind made up already.


Take what you will from the same quote, and I will, too.



> This morning I responded to flooding complaints on Avocado Avenue *and it appears *the recent Brightline construction has caused major issues for Melbourne residents and businesses.
> 
> *I will be calling on Brightline for a comprehensive report* relating to the flooding impacts that their project has caused our City and remedies to correct them.



FWIW, I'm not a Paul Affrey constituent nor particularly a fan. But if he "will be calling on" (asks) and the report denies Brightline is responsible, it doesn't really matter what his preconceived notion is. But his responsibility is to his constituents and I don't know of a politician who would not spin the question to favor his residents.


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## pennyk

Peterg said:


> Is it better than Amtrak ?
> 
> If you have to get just around some of Florida ?


Right now, traveling in South Florida, I believe Brightline is much better than Amtrak. I do not believe commuters in South Florida use Amtrak. They use Tri-Rail or Brightline.

When Brightline expands to Orlando, I believe it will also be better than Amtrak (faster, more options, newer trains). However, for me, the Brightline Orlando airport station location is not convenient.


----------



## VentureForth

Peterg said:


> Is it better than Amtrak ?
> 
> If you have to get just around some of Florida ?


Florida is a huge state with a population that competes with Texas for 3rd place in the nation. The traffic between West Palm Bay and Miami is absolutely crazy.

To answer your question: It should be absolutely better than Amtrak with trains currently hourly and later to be twice an hour in each direction. Currently, you only have Amtrak Northbound once in the morning (two when they return both Silvers to service) and returning in the evening. These times don't even allow for a single trip to Orlando and back in the same day.

Brightline is privately owned and operated. They use pretty new equipment (less than 5 years old), though I would argue not quite as comfortable. I felt like I was sitting on a plastic bench with a layer of leather.

For trips within the major metroplex, Brightline and Tri-Rail (the local government service) are best. Again, Amtrak with one trip in each direction daily can't be relied on. Brightline will be better than Tri-Rail, but much more expensive, but with only limited stops (currently three stations total). Tri-Rail is cheap but very slow and really only useful for shorter trips within the metroplex.

When the extension to Orlando is finished, it will be interesting to see how many people will actually want to go from the WPB-MIA basin to Orlando _Airport. _Not sure if Sunrail will connect when Brightline is serving the airport. Eventually when it does, the utility will become more valuable.

When Brightline extends to Tampa, I expect to see a lot of traffic between Tampa and Orlando and Miami and Orlando. It really wouldn't make too much sense to go from Miami to Tampa or vice versa. That can also be done currently on Amtrak. It's about 5 hours and 45 minutes. Brightline may save up to an hour or so. Driving takes about 4 hours. Flying can be done for less than $100. 

So, yes. It'll be better than Amtrak, but will it have real value to Floridians? Since they are relying on their funds more than taxpayers money, they are hoping the risk will yield profit.


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## VentureForth

pennyk said:


> Right now, traveling in South Florida, I believe Brightline is much better than Amtrak. I do not believe commuters in South Florida use Amtrak. They use Tri-Rail or Brightline.
> 
> When Brightline expands to Orlando, I believe it will also be better than Amtrak (faster, more options, newer trains). However, for me, the Brightline Orlando airport station location is not convenient.


You said what I said MUCH more concisely!


----------



## Anderson

So, I'm starting to poke at spreadsheets regarding Brightline's ridership/revenue. One observation I have so far this year is that after an initial ramp-up, ridership has been flat for the last few months (hovering around 100k/month - we're 50k short of that because of lower ridership in Jan/Feb during the ramp-up, but Mar-Aug have all been around that level

I strongly suspect this is going to start rising when the Boca Raton and Aventura stations open up (if I had to guess, combined they'll add at least another 50% to this figure once they ramp up). I'm _guessing_ that both will open in December, so we won't see much until early 2023.

I'm wondering about the Orlando opening timeline (as well as the possible stations in Cocoa and Stuart/Ft. Pierce). There was one news story where Brightline's folks seemed to tease trying to get that operational before the Christmas travel season, but that seems unlikely.

For that matter, does anybody know the planned frequencies up to Orlando? They don't seem to have enough sets for hourly service - that would _probably_ require at least nine sets given that the one-way runtime is likely to be a hair over three hours and you need to allow for one to be down at any given time, be it for maintenance or for cyclical inspections. And given the number of grade crossing incidents, I'd probably want to have ten.


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## jis

They will have ten sets by the time service begins.


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## joelkfla

pennyk said:


> When Brightline expands to Orlando, I believe it will also be better than Amtrak (faster, more options, newer trains). However, for me, the Brightline Orlando airport station location is not convenient.


Might that last opinion change if and when frequent SunRail service to the airport materializes?


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Might that last opinion change if and when frequent SunRail service to the airport materializes?


It will be certainly be a more pleasant experience getting to the OIA station from downtown by SunRail than the current Bus routine.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> It will be certainly be a more pleasant experience getting to the OIA station from downtown by SunRail than the current Bus routine.


For that to work and provide an attractive connection, the trains would either have to be timed to connect, or be so frequent that it doesn't matter.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> For that to work and provide an attractive connection, the trains would either have to be timed to connect, or be so frequent that it doesn't matter.


Not like the bus is that frequent either. While they talk about half hourly service, I think they will start with hourly when they get around to it. All that is at least five years away at the rate they are going.


----------



## railiner

pennyk said:


> I do not believe commuters in South Florida use Amtrak. They use Tri-Rail or Brightline.


I do not believe commuters could use Amtrak, even in the unlikely situation they actually wanted to.
Amtrak will not sell tickets for travel wholly between West Palm Beach and Miami…


----------



## pennyk

joelkfla said:


> Might that last opinion change if and when frequent SunRail service to the airport materializes?


yes indeed!


----------



## bonzoesc

railiner said:


> I do not believe commuters could use Amtrak, even in the unlikely situation they actually wanted to.
> Amtrak will not sell tickets for travel wholly between West Palm Beach and Miami…


Every Amtrak station except the Miami Amshack is also a Tri-Rail station (and that area's served by a much less out-of-the-way combination Tri-Rail and Metrorail station), that tracks.


----------



## west point

Ridership will be hard to predict. There actually be an increase of Amtrak Florida ridership as Brightline becomes much more apparent in the public's eye. That is not a prediction as Amtrak riderrrship might decrease? 

How long it takes Sun Rail to get to MCO will make a real difference. Too bad Brightline cannot send some trains to just Sand Lake to connect there to Sun Rail until Sun Rail gets to MCO.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> They will have ten sets by the time service begins.


Gotcha. For some reason I thought it was only going to be eight and that got stuck in my mind. [Probably due to some garbling of the timeline or something.]


----------



## VentureForth

west point said:


> How long it takes Sun Rail to get to MCO will make a real difference. Too bad Brightline cannot send some trains to just Sand Lake to connect there to Sun Rail until Sun Rail gets to MCO.


What's the missing link here? I suppose it be quicker to get Sunrail to the airport than Brightline to Sand Lake. Station infrastructure is already in place at the Airport - just need tracks & signaling at the Sunrail platforms. Brightline would have to have a whole station built at Sand Lake to stay "gated". So you're right ... to bad Brightline can't go to Sand Lake.

What's the timeline for Sunrail to get to MCO?


----------



## Anderson

So, some thoughts/observations:

(1) When Orlando service starts SB, I would expect the first two trains (0510/0610 now) to originate at WPB and the third (0648 now) to originate at Orlando. The departures for the first two would be insanely early; the third isn't quite as "out there" for Orlando, but it's not horrid for Stuart/Ft. Pierce (Cocoa leaves something to be desired).

(2) I suspect an earlier NB departure will be needed from Miami, since 0648 out of MIA gets you into WPB at 0800 (not bad) but wouldn't get you to Orlando until about 1000 (and you still have to get downtown if you want to do a meeting, so I wouldn't bet on getting much done before lunch). Honestly, two earlier departures from MIA seem plausible (for arrivals in the 0800 and 0900 range), especially since even if you don't get much traffic from MIA, FLL/Boca/WPB are likely to start loading some folks on as you go.

A single NB origination from WPB (or FLL) is also at least plausible here, but I'm dubious that I'd want to give up any marginal traffic on the south end (hence FLL as an option).

(3) In the evenings, the two morning originations at WPB parallel nicely with the last two MIA departures many days (2348 wouldn't hit Orlando until 0300 [!], and 2148's arrival at 0100 or so would be dubious).

(4) An additional SB evening train (or two) seems likely - the current gap between the last two regular trains is pretty big and only allows for one departure from Orlando after rush hour (the 2208 from WPB would leave Orlando around 2000, while the 1948 would be leaving Orlando around 1740). My best guess? Add one train between the two, move the 2208 a bit earlier (2148?), and then have one last late train aiming for arriving at MIA either a bit after midnight (allowing for an Orlando departure a bit after 2100) or sync it with "last general park closing plus X" so you can pitch a "full day in the parks" trip deal and just accept probably awful arrivals. Notably, if that last train is late enough you could do a "red eye" crew which covers the first trip back north (a 2200 departure from Orlando has to be back by about 0930, but if the first train leaves MIA around 0500 and arrives in Orlando at 0800...that's quite doable).


----------



## Qapla

Latest Video


----------



## GDRRiley

brightline is so close to a pulse but not quite there. They need a few departures shifted and to fill in the weird gaps with extra trains.


----------



## Anderson

GDRRiley said:


> brightline is so close to a pulse but not quite there. They need a few departures shifted and to fill in the weird gaps with extra trains.


They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.

The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.


----------



## GDRRiley

Anderson said:


> They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.
> 
> The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.


could get more coaches and that would be fairly cheap


----------



## Anderson

GDRRiley said:


> could get more coaches and that would be fairly cheap


It's a few million per coach, and somewhat more per loco, and each train has two locos. Also, they want the sets to all be identical for operational reasons.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.
> 
> The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.


Given a choice between running a relatively full train and a relatively empty train Brightline will generally sacrifice clockface schedule. They are really not very religious about anything other than good yield management given the resources that are available. They have shown this behavior often enough for one to believe that it will be there modus operandi.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Given a choice between running a relatively full train and a relatively empty train Brightline will generally sacrifice clockface schedule. They are really not very religious about anything other than good yield management given the resources that are available. They have shown this behavior often enough for one to believe that it will be there modus operandi.


It's still early days, and I expect their philosophy will evolve with experience.

A clockface schedule presents certain advantages outside of the obvious customer-friendliness aspect, and these include rolling stock rotation and utilization, and also utilization of track capacity, especially when you have single track sections on which the location of sidings essentially dictates the schedule. Passenger railroads across the world have come to this conclusion independently. AFAIK the first railroad to introduce such a schedule was the London and South Western Railway on its electrified lines out of London Waterloo, which was pre-WW1, making the concept well over a hundred years old,


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> It's still early days, and I expect their philosophy will evolve with experience.
> 
> A clockface schedule presents certain advantages outside of the obvious customer-friendliness aspect, and these include rolling stock rotation and utilization, and also utilization of track capacity, especially when you have single track sections on which the location of sidings essentially dictates the schedule. Passenger railroads across the world have come to this conclusion independently. AFAIK the first railroad to introduce such a schedule was the London and South Western Railway on its electrified lines out of London Waterloo, which was pre-WW1, making the concept well over a hundred years old,


That is stating the obvious given a large enough temporal window of discourse and availability of resources.

I am stating what is likely to happen in the next few years when they will have precisely 10 4 car train sets and no more. Apparently people don't realize how tight a financial situation is for current Brightline development and operations. There is a reason they are not splurging on 8 car trains from the getgo. They may be owned by Softbank indirectly, but they do not have an unrestricted line of credit from them or from FECI. Unlike Amtrak, during COVID they furloughed/laid off almost everyone, other than those necessary to keep construction going. This included most of their executive suite. They truly shuttered shop for the duration. They rebuilt their staff to reintroduce service.

The single line sections is a non issue because the time table slots exist for upto 4tph. It will be a while before all of them are occupied. Meanwhile any of those slots can be used.


----------



## west point

Testing begins for 110 MPH.









Brightline to begin 110-mph testing north of West Palm Beach - Trains


ORLANDO, Fla. — For the first time, Brightline will begin test runs of passenger trains at 110 mph in preparation for its expansion of service to Orlando in 2023, the company has announced. Testing will occur on an 11-mile stretch of Martin and St. Lucie counties the week of Oct. 17 and is...




www.trains.com


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## Qapla

Latest video from Roaming Railfan
Brightline Construction: Indian River County Progress- October 2022​


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## VentureForth

Not much going on along 528. About the same state as last couple weeks. All but less than 2 miles has been ballasted. Ballast train still sits about 10 miles to the west. 

Saw some active tamping.

Can't wait to see some of the signals powered up!


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: St. Lucie and Martin County Progress - October 2022​


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts that were primarily about SunRail have been moved to one of the existing SunRail threads:






Orlando SunRail


On the 3:15 NB out of Poinciana headed to Debary. HEP went out before we left the station. Don't know why they have the mid level seats behind the cab blocked off. Security is their excuse.




www.amtraktrains.com





Please post further material that is primarily about SunRail in that thread while focusing this thread on Brightline progress.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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## Anderson

As a heads up, based on the last few months' filings, we should be getting an update in the next 1-3 days on Brightline's financials (and construction progress). The last few months' reports have all come in on the 20th, 21st, or 22nd (it was the 21st in June, and it was the 22nd in August _but _the 20th was a Saturday).

[Third quarter stuff will probably take until December, based on history.]


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## jis

Aventura station is coming along...









Brightline completes critical step towards finishing its Aventura station


Brightline has installed one of the final pieces of its Aventura station, a 131-foot-long skybridge that stretches across West Dixie Highway near Northeast 198 Street.




www.local10.com


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## Anderson

https://emma.msrb.org/P21623833-P21250716-P21675541.pdf


I don't recall if there was any ridership interruption last month from Hurricane Ian (I'd assume a marginal impact since I think they partly cut service back on one or two days).


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## chrsjrcj

Apparently Brightline is no longer considering a stop at the Fort Lauderdale Airport. 



> *15. Why is the Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport station no longer marked as a Brightline station?* In recent meetings with Broward County, Brightline advised that their intercity passenger service is no longer planned to stop at the Airport. Brightline is constructing stations in Aventura and Boca Raton and their passengers will be able to connect to commuter rail service and access the Airport via Aventura (in Miami-Dade) in the near term and via Boca Raton in Palm Beach County at a future date.





https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/projects_browardcommuterrail/bcr-frequently-asked-questions.pdf?sfvrsn=ee1a3852_4


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## chrsjrcj

Found a clip on Twitter of the 110 mph test


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## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> Found a clip on Twitter of the 110 mph test



I found it interesting that they're closing all the crossings end-to-end on the test route before the start of each test run.


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## Qapla

First Brightline 110mph Higher Speed Test Trains - October 21, 2022


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## GDRRiley

joelkfla said:


> I found it interesting that they're closing all the crossings end-to-end on the test route before the start of each test run.


I would bet the system to make sure crossing gates close correctly isn't quite ready and needs more testing.


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## Brian_tampa

GDRRiley said:


> I would bet the system to make sure crossing gates close correctly isn't quite ready and needs more testing.


I would think that this is the initial testing phase for the PTC system. How else would you test a system that has not been operational at 110mph before? I believe this will be the first Wabtec I-ETMS system that will have trains running at speeds up to 125mph. There are lots of components to test, especially at the grade crossings.


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## GDRRiley

Brian_tampa said:


> I would think that this is the initial testing phase for the PTC system. How else would you test a system that has not been operational at 110mph before? I believe this will be the first Wabtec I-ETMS system that will have trains running at speeds up to 125mph. There are lots of components to test, especially at the grade crossings.


if this is I-ETMS with ITCS on top then its been running in Michigan for 10 years at 110mph with testing done at that speed 20+ years


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## jis

GDRRiley said:


> if this is I-ETMS with ITCS on top then its been running in Michigan for 10 years at 110mph with testing done at that speed 20+ years


No ITCS here. The cab signal is FEC’s eATCS. My understanding is that I-ETMS is an overlay on FEC cab signals. The loco dashboard has both cab signals and I-ETMS display.


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## Brian_tampa

I thought the Michigan line was ITCS first as that system was installed back in the mid 1990's. Then I-ETMS came later as the defacto freight rail PTC system standard in the USA. Brightline originally went with a unique E-ATC system that they removed during their Covid shutdown. As Jis says, the Brightline I-ETMS is an overlay of the FECR ATC cab signal system. 

I might be wrong, but I-ETMS has never been operational at 125mph speeds before. Brightline intends to run at 150mph between Orlando and Tampa, I assume using I-ETMS.


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## GDRRiley

Brian_tampa said:


> I might be wrong, but I-ETMS has never been operational at 125mph speeds before. Brightline intends to run at 150mph between Orlando and Tampa, I assume using I-ETMS.


brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom


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## jis

GDRRiley said:


> brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
> and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom


ETCS is a specification, of which ERTMS (typically level 2 though there are a few level 3) is a commonly deployed implementation in Europe. Brightline has settled on I-ETMS overlay on eATC on FECR in Florida. 

There will be no ETCS anything on Brightline Florida. 

In California-Nevada the logical thing to do would be to use whatever CAHSR settles on.


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## Qapla

Regardless of where else and for how long any PTC system has been tested - this system is a new installation and needs to be tested.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Regardless of where else and for how long any PTC system has been tested - this system is a new installation and needs to be tested.


All new installations of PTC irrespective of the technology and implementation require extensive testing and certification irrespective of how many similar installations may be there elsewhere.


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## GDRRiley

jis said:


> ETCS is a specification, of which ERTMS (typically level 2 though there are a few level 3) is a commonly deployed implementation in Europe. Brightline has settled on I-ETMS overlay on eATC on FECR in Florida. There will be no ETCS anything on Brightline Florida.


I'm aware but you aren't going to get 150-160mph on I-ETMS


jis said:


> In California-Nevada the logical thing to do would be to use whatever CAHSR settles on.


its ETCS L2


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## Brian_tampa

GDRRiley said:


> brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
> and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom


Brightline did a public presentation of their intentions to operate at speeds up to 150mph at a Hillsborough County (Tampa) government meeting this past spring. The link to the meeting video from March is buried here on this thread. I also have confirmed it with Brightline people that I have spoken with since it was announced.

The Venture cars are capable of that speed, and per my conversations the Charger locomotives only need minor modifications to run at 150mph, mainly removing the imposed Brightline limit of 4000hp. Siemens built the Venture cars with high speed trucks that can run at 150 mph speeds with some slight modifications to the standard delivered car.

The reason why they won't run at 150 mph between Cocoa and Orlando is that the length of track is not long enough to make it feasible. Along I-4 to Tampa, there are many miles of potential 150 mph tracks since the straightaways are longer.


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## jis

GDRRiley said:


> I'm aware but you aren't going to get 150-160mph on I-ETMS


We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation


Standard I-ETMS is only good for 110mph at best, right? If Brightline is planning on running 125 to 150 mph on passenger train only tracks, would that make it easier to adapt the current I-ETMS system for those higher speeds? And the FECR ATC system would not matter on the line west of Cocoa (City Point) anyway.


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## GDRRiley

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline did a public presentation of their intentions to operate at speeds up to 150mph at a Hillsborough County (Tampa) government meeting this past spring. The link to the meeting video from March is buried here on this thread. I also have confirmed it with Brightline people that I have spoken with since it was announced.


I found it.
she said a very vague we are thinking about it and given the fact she doesn't know how fast amtrak runs nor could correctly say how fast they'll run north of west palm I've got a hard time believing it


Brian_tampa said:


> The Venture cars are capable of that speed, and per my conversations the Charger locomotives only need minor modifications to run at 150mph, mainly removing the imposed Brightline limit of 4000hp. Siemens built the Venture cars with high speed trucks that can run at 150 mph speeds with some slight modifications to the standard delivered car.


they aren't going to hit 160mph with 9000hp, the acela hits that with 12,400HP and their weight is pretty close per loco and per car

ventures cars being good for 150-160mph doesn't surprise me if they didn't change much from their euro design in that department


Brian_tampa said:


> The reason why they won't run at 150 mph between Cocoa and Orlando is that the length of track is not long enough to make it feasible. Along I-4 to Tampa, there are many miles of potential 150 mph tracks since the straightaways are longer.


at 40 miles its nearly the same distance as the section thats expected to be in I-4



jis said:


> We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation


I wish we had more public documents around these deployments and info about them


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## Touchdowntom9

I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.


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## jis

Touchdowntom9 said:


> I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.


Fortress does not care what speed trains run at as long as they get their real estate returns.


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## Brian_tampa

This is a video from the Brightline YT account showing their recent 110mph testing. The first several runby's are very cool. I think this is the first time I have seen the Chargers and Venture cars running at 110 mph.


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## Qapla

Must be kinda' fun running those trains up-and-down those tracks at 110mph not having to worry about hitting any cars at the crossings


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## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> Fortress does not care what speed trains run at as long as they get their real estate returns.


The point is that Fortress would not let Brightline make claims that would open them up to lawsuits for potentially misleading investors and therefore threatening their future real estate investment returns. Building next to abandoned train stations isn't their gameplan.


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## jis

Touchdowntom9 said:


> The point is that Fortress would not let Brightline make claims that would open them up to lawsuits for potentially misleading investors and therefore threatening their future real estate investment returns. Building next to abandoned train stations isn't their gameplan.


And my point is that speed claims are irrelevant unless they affect the financials in any way. No one cares if it does not affect the financials. 25mph difference in speed is not going to be a showstopper as far as that goes. There will be no abandoned stations in Tampa or Orlando for that reason.

Remember, they originally claimed service would start in 2016. No one has sued them about that yet even though it has clearly affected financials somewhat significantly. They have not met their original end to end time claims either, but no one cares about the 15-20 minutes miss and no stations are getting abandoned because of that. More are being built which will actually increase the size of the miss.

Even if they managed to run full speed between Orlando and Tampa (which they won't), the total end to end time difference between 125mph and 150 is something between 6 and 7 minutes. It will give them a little more time to turn the train around at each end, and either way it will be way faster than a car ride. It won't change the overall project significantly if they fail to reach 150mph.


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## Devil's Advocate

Touchdowntom9 said:


> I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.


Where I come from plans are not promises, comments are not contracts, and dissolution/bankruptcy favors lenders over investors.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> They have not met their original end to end time claims either, but no one cares about the 15-20 minutes miss and no stations are getting abandoned because of that. More are being built which will actually increase the size of the miss.


Here's to hoping they can accommodate local/express service with in-station leap-frogging.


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## Touchdowntom9

VentureForth said:


> Here's to hoping they can accommodate local/express service with in-station leap-frogging.


Will be interesting to see--when I rode the train they took their time pulling in and out of the stations. Curious if they will speed that up with more stops being added.


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## jis

110mph testing in Brevard County this weekend (10/29-30/22)









Still on track: Brightline testing train speeds in Brevard County


It will take place along a 13-mile section of track, spanning 18 railroad crossings




www.wftv.com


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## jis

According to posts elsewhere on various boards from usually reliable sources the timeline for work on the Cocoa - Orlando section is as follows:

- Loaded ballast train run between Orlando and Cocoa Monday - Friday and ramp up the speed to 50mph starting in December.

- Begin full corridor testing and certification in December. 

- January will be 110-125mph testing.

- Open system by Valentine's Day.


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: Aventura and Boca Raton Station Progress - October 23, 2022​


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## jis

Aventura station service inauguration imminent









Brightline Says Aventura Train Service Will Begin Within Weeks, Take 17 Minutes To Downtown


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Aventura station service inauguration imminent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline Says Aventura Train Service Will Begin Within Weeks, Take 17 Minutes To Downtown
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com



"Miami-Dade County will offer subsidized fares for a percentage of riders between Aventura and MiamiCentral."

Fascinating.


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> "Miami-Dade County will offer subsidized fares for a percentage of riders between Aventura and MiamiCentral."
> 
> Fascinating.


so much for promises that Brightline would work without subsidies.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> And my point is that speed claims are irrelevant unless they affect the financials in any way. No one cares if it does not affect the financials. 25mph difference in speed is not going to be a showstopper as far as that goes. There will be no abandoned stations in Tampa or Orlando for that reason.
> 
> Remember, they originally claimed service would start in 2016. No one has sued them about that yet even though it has clearly affected financials somewhat significantly. They have not met their original end to end time claims either, but no one cares about the 15-20 minutes miss and no stations are getting abandoned because of that. More are being built which will actually increase the size of the miss.
> 
> Even if they managed to run full speed between Orlando and Tampa (which they won't), the total end to end time difference between 125mph and 150 is something between 6 and 7 minutes. It will give them a little more time to turn the train around at each end, and either way it will be way faster than a car ride. It won't change the overall project significantly if they fail to reach 150mph.


I don't think it matters whether these things affect the financials or not.

Somebody made a false claim and investors can claim to have been mislead, and should Brightline miss any financial targets in future, and investors feel inclined to take up beef with Brightline over that, these things could get dragged out and causalities alleged even where there aren't any. This could happen even if the real reason with the dissatisfaction is something entirely different.

The best strategy is to not present any potential enemies with any easy targets and not needlessly present unfriendly lawyers with any low hanging fruit. In the company where I work every press release has to go through a strict and pedantic multi level approval precisely to avoid anything of this nature.

I have seen senior managers step back over more insignificant mistakes than this. Probably these were people who had their enemies anyway, but you don't want to be making it easy for them.


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## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> so much for promises that Brightline would work without subsidies.


I suspect this will only last until Sun-Rail moves in onto the FEC. I don't think Brightline wants to lose longer trip, higher paying passengers to short distance, subsidized passengers.


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> I suspect this will only last until Sun-Rail moves in onto the FEC. I don't think Brightline wants to lose longer trip, higher paying passengers to short distance, subsidized passengers.


Indeed! The Tri Rail NE Corridor Service which will operate on Brightline/FECR property is entirely driven by county and state subsidies. Brightline's own service will not be subsidized.

Construction of Brightline, specially through Orlando is not even Brightline's anymore. It is a complex public private partnership on which Brightline will rent space.

It all depends on how one defines subsidized/funded privately vs. publicly. Is the use of tax exempt bonds a form of subsidy?


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## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> I suspect this will only last until Sun-Rail moves in onto the FEC. I don't think Brightline wants to lose longer trip, higher paying passengers to short distance, subsidized passengers.


You mean Tri-Rail (or rather, the Miami-Dade/Broward commuter projects)?

Also, the plan (ten years ago) was for no subsidies. Ten years, a bunch of legal antics, a pandemic, and a string of interest rate hikes later there's room for Brightline to point to material changes in the business environment.

As long as the strings attached to them aren't problematic, I can't see an investor being able to make a claim that Brightline accepting subsidies (i.e. increasing revenue) is a negative. There's also a good chance that, with several years of data in hand, the subsidized tickets might not be evenly distributed across trains...but at the same time, if you look at the data they put out a few years ago, the estimate was that ridership would peak between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale...so if the county is basically paying to fill empty seats on the southernmost leg, that's also a win.


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## Qapla

Of course, we have yet to see what impact that the new storm, Nicole, may have on Brightline and/or the rail lines on the east coast.


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## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> You mean Tri-Rail (or rather, the Miami-Dade/Broward commuter projects)?


Yeah yeah.... Tri-Rail.


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## Tlcooper93

I've been pondering some numbers. Forgive me if this has already been talked about.

We've been discussing whether or not Brightline is true HSR, but of course, Brightline is, by any standard, kind of a giant success.

At 1.2 million in 2022, Brightline has more ridership than any Amtrak route except for the big 2, and that number will likely skyrocket with the completion of the Orlando extension. I do understand that its hard to compare these things, but I do think its significant that Brightline is functioning as kind of a proof on concept. 

It may not be a proof of concept for HSR, but it certainly is a proof of concept for a nice, clean (in terms of cleanliness), intercity rail service. In a way, it proves to silly naysayers (or at least people who've never heard of Japan) that rail can be relevant in the 21st century, even in America. 

Now imagine if they electrified, and eliminated grade crossings.


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## west point

IMO Brightline is not HSR. But it is definitely HrSR north of Palm Beach. 110 MPH and 125 MPH>
The biggest subsidity for either Brigntline or Tri-Rail will be the flyover over New River in FtLauderdale for just passenger trains.. Who pays for it with and how subsidity is divided will defining case.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Of course, we have yet to see what impact that the new storm, Nichole, may have on Brightline and/or the rail lines on the east coast.


Nothing that will cause any delay in construction. It is also becoming less and less likely that any service will be affected if the current trends continue.


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## Anderson

Tlcooper93 said:


> I've been pondering some numbers. Forgive me if this has already been talked about.
> 
> We've been discussing whether or not Brightline is true HSR, but of course, Brightline is, by any standard, kind of a giant success.
> 
> At 1.2 million in 2022, Brightline has more ridership than any Amtrak route except for the big 2, and that number will likely skyrocket with the completion of the Orlando extension. I do understand that its hard to compare these things, but I do think its significant that Brightline is functioning as kind of a proof on concept.
> 
> It may not be a proof of concept for HSR, but it certainly is a proof of concept for a nice, clean (in terms of cleanliness), intercity rail service. In a way, it proves to silly naysayers (or at least people who've never heard of Japan) that rail can be relevant in the 21st century, even in America.
> 
> Now imagine if they electrified, and eliminated grade crossings.


I mean, Brightline has about 17x daily trains most days. Setting the NEC Regionals aside, the only routes that have gotten close in terms of frequency are the Surfliners (usually, but it has only seven buses right now LAX-SAN), the Capitol Corridor (12x/day OKJ-SAC, plus the _Starlight_), the Empire Corridor (9x/day plus the _LSL_; the Adirondack is still not back yet), and the Keystones (13x/day plus one _Pennsylvanian_).

Looking at other corridors, some longer ones do exceed Brightline in terms of ridership - but I think that Brightline when built to Orlando is more comparable to (say) LAX-SAN than some of the longer iterations.

The gist is that if you run a decently-fast, reasonably frequent train between two decent-sized cities (with intermediate stops in a populated area), you'll generate quite a bit of ridership.


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## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> I mean, Brightline has about 17x daily trains most days. Setting the NEC Regionals aside, the only routes that have gotten close in terms of frequency are the Surfliners (usually, but it has only seven buses right now LAX-SAN), the Capitol Corridor (12x/day OKJ-SAC, plus the _Starlight_), the Empire Corridor (9x/day plus the _LSL_; the Adirondack is still not back yet), and the Keystones (13x/day plus one _Pennsylvanian_).
> 
> Looking at other corridors, some longer ones do exceed Brightline in terms of ridership - but I think that Brightline when built to Orlando is more comparable to (say) LAX-SAN than some of the longer iterations.
> 
> The gist is that if you run a decently-fast, reasonably frequent train between two decent-sized cities (with intermediate stops in a populated area), you'll generate quite a bit of ridership.


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I completely agree with the caveat that there should be limited-stop express service for the fastest end-to-end times. And schedule adherence is a MUST.


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## daybeers

Anderson said:


> The gist is that if you run a decently-fast, reasonably frequent train between two decent-sized cities (with intermediate stops in a populated area), you'll generate quite a bit of ridership.


What a concept!!


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: Loxahatchee River Drawbridge Progress - October 23, 2022​


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## jis

TriRail's arrival at Miami Central is apparently getting close...









Tri-Rail Signs MiamiCentral Training Agreement, Grand Opening Date ‘In The Very Near Future’


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


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## jis

Rail News - TriRail to begin training, testing for MiamiCentral Station. For Railroad Career Professionals







www.progressiverailroading.com


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> Rail News - TriRail to begin training, testing for MiamiCentral Station. For Railroad Career Professionals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.progressiverailroading.com


The 8-mile section is conspicuosly missing from the article.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Rail News - TriRail to begin training, testing for MiamiCentral Station. For Railroad Career Professionals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.progressiverailroading.com




The article says: 

_"One of my main goals when arriving in South Florida was to ensure we were having quality conversations with our partners at Brightline and the FEC, knowing it is the only way we are going to get through the hurdles that have been holding us up," said Executive Director David Dech, who has led TriRail since August._

Bit odd that they didn't realize that earlier?


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## jis

cirdan said:


> The article says:
> 
> _"One of my main goals when arriving in South Florida was to ensure we were having quality conversations with our partners at Brightline and the FEC, knowing it is the only way we are going to get through the hurdles that have been holding us up," said Executive Director David Dech, who has led TriRail since August._
> 
> Bit odd that they didn't realize that earlier?


Well TriRail's previous experience was to simply buy out CSX's property. They are hosted on CSX for a very short distance at the Mangonia end. The rest they are their own masters.

On the access to Miami Central and also on the Northeast Corridor they will be tenants on Florida Dispatching Company governed territory, which is equally influenced by FECR and Brightline. It is a new experience for them and the previous management could not wrap their head around it I suppose.


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## lordsigma

I Will be down in the Miami area in April and would love to check out Brightline and everything to do with it. Not sure if it will happen though given I'll be traveling with a family member that has an agenda in mind that may not make it feasible. We'll have to play it by year! If not I'll likely take a joyride in October during my annual Orlando trip. April will actually also be my first Amtrak trip south of Kissemmee station.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> I Will be down in the Miami area in April and would love to check out Brightline and everything to do with it. Not sure if it will happen though given I'll be traveling with a family member that has an agenda in mind that may not make it feasible. We'll have to play it by year! If not I'll likely take a joyride in October during my annual Orlando trip. April will actually also be my first Amtrak trip south of Kissemmee station.


If things go well you could travel from Orlando to Miami by Brightline even in April, and most certainly in October.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> If things go well you could travel from Orlando to Miami by Brightline even in April, and most certainly in October.


Something to think about - what is the most straightforward way to get from Orlando Amtrak station to the airport?


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## VentureForth

lordsigma said:


> Something to think about - what is the most straightforward way to get from Orlando Amtrak station to the airport?


Uber/Lyft.

Or, Bus 11 runs every 30 minutes. One seat ride, $2, 44 minutes on the timetable.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> Something to think about - what is the most straightforward way to get from Orlando Amtrak station to the airport?


I use Uber/Lyft. But as mentioned above you could opt for the bus. Unfortunately Lynx buses in my experience quite unpredictably get bunched up, so every thirty minute service may in actuality look like two buses after an hour


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> I use Uber/Lyft. But as mentioned above you could opt for the bus. Unfortunately Lynx buses in my experience quite unpredictably get bunched up, so every thirty minute service may in actuality look like two buses after an hour


I'll probably go the Uber/Lyft route if I do it - unsure too if I'd do it on the southern trip (would amend my 97 res to terminate at Orlando) or coming north and boarding 98 at ORL. Will have to see what the BL schedule is when they start up.


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## VentureForth

lordsigma said:


> I'll probably go the Uber/Lyft route if I do it - unsure too if I'd do it on the southern trip (would amend my 97 res to terminate at Orlando) or coming north and boarding 98 at ORL. Will have to see what the BL schedule is when they start up.


There is also a bus from the Kissimmee station. On weekdays, you can catch SunRail from either Orlando or Kissimmee to Sand Lake Road and take the bus from there, but the time may not be any more efficient.


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## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> April will actually also be my first Amtrak trip south of Kissemmee station.


I really like that section south towards Tampa where you are racing through the orange groves at 70 mph - very fun!


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## Caesar La Rock

Brightline construction update was just posted. This was done on October 29th.


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## GDRRiley

getting closer. Interesting to me FRA only requires derailers on sidings above 90mph, Europe has them on most sidings.


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## VentureForth

I've seen some lights on (The little "power" lights - amber, green) on some of the boxes along the 528. No mainline signals turned on yet. Still, getting exciting!


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> I've seen some lights on (The little "power" lights - amber, green) on some of the boxes along the 528. No mainline signals turned on yet. Still, getting exciting!


One very interesting feature on the 528 segment is that the interlockings do not have any connection from the power grid. They are entirely powered by solar panels and large battery packs capable of powering them for a couple of days without being charged. If they wished to get grid connections they would required to install many miles of transmission lines, which they thought was going to be more expensive than having battery packs that lasted many days with the highly predictable consumption, and with properly scaled solar panels to charge them.


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## GDRRiley

jis said:


> One very interesting feature on the 528 segment is that the interlockings do not have any connection from the power grid. They are entirely powered by solar panels and large battery packs capable of powering them for a couple of days without being charged. If they wished to get grid connections they would required to install many miles of transmission lines, which they thought was going to be more expensive than having battery packs that lasted many days with the highly predictable consumption, and with properly scaled solar panels to charge them.


quite a few also have diesel generators for backup if the solar+battery gets low


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## jis

GDRRiley said:


> quite a few also have diesel generators for backup if the solar+battery gets low


According to the route engineer who spoke to us during our visit to the Maintenance Facility at OIA several weeks back, these are pure Solar. No diesel. Power consumption is minuscule at the wayside signals what with LED lamps and such. Consumption is about 3 to 4x where there is a switch, but still it is not that large and Florida has lots and lots of Sun and 10-20kW batteries are not that large.


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## Brian_tampa

I am curious if these signal installations have anti-vandal measures such as fencing, motion sensors for lighting, enclosure intrusion switches, etc.. as part of their design. Some of them are rather isolated, yet not far from a major highway by foot.

And due to their location with regards to power source, solar is most likely the best design as utility power may be out for weeks after a storm if they did have external power lines installed.


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## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> And due to their location with regards to power source, solar is most likely the best design as utility power may be out for weeks after a storm if they did have external power lines installed.


More importantly, for some of those locations there is no utility power line of any sort within 5 or 6 miles. So they would have to install new lines just for the few watts that these sites would typically consume.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> More importantly, for some of those locations there is no utility power line of any sort within 5 or 6 miles. So they would have to install new lines just for the few watts that these sites would typically consume.


Speaking of power consumption, initially there is one #32 switch on the SR528 route with 5 electric motors to operate the switch points. Am curious how much power these motors require to move the switch points? And a future second similar switch will be west of the St John's River bridge I believe. Are these also solar powered or battery backup?

I think even if utility power was available without the extra cost to run power lines, solar is by far more reliable.


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## Qapla

With today's solar panels and LiFePo4 batteries they may be able to get a week of power for lights and switches with a battery bank and the proper inverters. They don't take up much space and last for a very long time.


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## VentureForth

Solar charged batteries sufficient for signaling makes sense, but for switches?


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Solar charged batteries sufficient for signaling makes sense, but for switches?


Since Railway Power Switches can be operated using 12V, 24V or 120V DC power, they could not possibly be huge consumers of power. Typical extended run backup power systems have capacity of 500W or less. Switch motors really are not all that power hungry. They have a small motor with a step down gear assembly to drive the switch throw rod. Even high speed switches with 5 or 6 switch motors would not consume a heck of a lot of power. And the consumption is only when the switch is being thrown which is a short period and relatively far between.

Here is a typical solar powered setup with or without additional backup...






Railroad Solar Power Systems - RedHawk Energy Systems, LLC


Since the early 1980's RedHawk Energy has provided hundreds of Solar (PV) Power Systems for the prime and backup power needs of wayside rail applications.



www.redhawkenergy.net


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## Qapla

LiFePo4 batteries can be used to power an entire house and/or shop including devises like miter saws, welders and plasma cutters - yes, they can handle switches


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## bonzoesc

VentureForth said:


> Solar charged batteries sufficient for signaling makes sense, but for switches?


Just gotta size the battery system to last for a number of extremely cloudy days in a row, size the panel system to put a net gain on the batteries when the switch is as busy as it'll ever be on a kinda-cloudy day, and then double those estimates.


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## Qapla

A 6-battery bank of LiFePo4 48v batteries is over 30 kWh and has more than enough to handle several switches for several days


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## Caesar La Rock

Another Brightline Construction update, this time installing the Cocoa Yard Lead South turnout. Also done in October on the 29th.


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## Brian_tampa

Caesar La Rock said:


> Another Brightline Construction update, this time installing the Cocoa Yard Lead South turnout. Also done in October on the 29th.



Nice video. I do have a question about the new intermediate signal for the east main track. Since it is positioned halfway into the yard lead switch, how will train engineers know the position of the switch? If the signal is a true intermediate signal, it would not show the switch (or route) position. I understand that FEC signals show route not speed indications. Anyone know how this switch will be signaled, if at all?


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## Anderson

Just out of curiosity, do we have a date for Aventura yet? [I'm a little bit antsy because if it's at the back end of the month I might be able to make the opening.]


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## VentureForth

I am still scratching my head over Boca and Aventura. They were marketing 60 minutes from Miami to WPB. It's 72 minutes per the schedule now. His much time is going to be needed for these two more stops? I'm guessing nominally 5 more minutes per stop, bringing the time to 82 minutes. That's almost a 40% indeed over the initially advertised timetable. Do people just not care about the speed anymore?


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## jis

Here is the most that is known publicly about the Aventura station:

Brightline Aventura Station


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## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> I am still scratching my head over Boca and Aventura. They were marketing 60 minutes from Miami to WPB. It's 72 minutes per the schedule now. His much time is going to be needed for these two more stops? I'm guessing nominally 5 more minutes per stop, bringing the time to 82 minutes. That's almost a 40% indeed over the initially advertised timetable. Do people just not care about the speed anymore?


I think it's closer to 2-3 minutes per stop - this isn't the Silver Meteor. Level boarding and so on help.

Also, I think there's a bit of slack in the timetable that they can work with. Note the Mass Transit Mag article, which seems to estimate about a 72-74-minute end-to-end runtime (56 to WPB+15 to MIA=71, plus 1-3 minutes for the Aventura stop).

Boca is less confusing to me than Aventura. The Palm Beach-Fort Lauderdale run is over 40 miles. A stop every 20 miles probably makes sense. Aventura is a little bit more tightly-placed. Also, remember - not all trains need make all stops. There's a decent chance that at least some trains skip one or the other depending on loads and the like. But the stop spacing is about every 15 minutes (again, per the article):
MIA-Aventura: 15 min
Aventura-FLL: 14 min
FLL-Boca: 18 min (32-14)
Boca-WPB: 24 min (56-32)

That's pretty decent (and even) spacing, all things considered.


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## GDRRiley

Anderson said:


> I think it's closer to 2-3 minutes per stop - this isn't the Silver Meteor.


with level boarding 90s is a reasonable target.


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## Anderson

GDRRiley said:


> with level boarding 90s is a reasonable target.


I'm accounting for some time loss due to acceleration/deceleration - that's the "real" loss in some respects.


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## Caesar La Rock

Another Construction update by Roaming Railfan on the Aventura and Boca Raton stations. This update was done in November.


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## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> I think it's closer to 2-3 minutes per stop - this isn't the Silver Meteor. Level boarding and so on help.





GDRRiley said:


> with level boarding 90s is a reasonable target.



These are good goals. At least the time I rode, it was closer to five minutes because there are a LOT of inexperienced transit riders onboard. I've mentioned this before here - people wait until the train STOPS before they stand (thinking it's an airplane) and the absence of disembarking passengers encourages those boarding to go ahead and do so. This results in a massive bottleneck in the vestibule. Despite there being constant instructions, many of the passengers aren't familiar with English or Spanish. 

I do hope that the regularity of the service will speed this up and help with the transit culture in the US (along with no smoking on the platforms - not a Brightline problem because they keep people off, but on other transit in the WPB-Miami basin).


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## railiner

VentureForth said:


> I am still scratching my head over Boca and Aventura. They were marketing 60 minutes from Miami to WPB. It's 72 minutes per the schedule now. His much time is going to be needed for these two more stops? I'm guessing nominally 5 more minutes per stop, bringing the time to 82 minutes. That's almost a 40% indeed over the initially advertised timetable. Do people just not care about the speed anymore?


On such a relatively short trip, I would use Tri-Rail, slightly longer, but a fraction of the cost, especially for Seniors…
To me, riding Brightline between West Palm Beach and Miami is an extravagance, almost like riding Amtrak Between New York and Trenton rather than NJT…


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## VentureForth

railiner said:


> On such a relatively short trip, I would use Tri-Rail, slightly longer, but a fraction of the cost, especially for Seniors…
> To me, riding Brightline between West Palm Beach and Miami is an extravagance, almost like riding Amtrak Between New York and Trenton rather than NJT…


I still don't get why this is such a big deal to go a mile west to get onto Tri Rail for local service, from FLL, north.


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## Touchdowntom9

VentureForth said:


> These are good goals. At least the time I rode, it was closer to five minutes because there are a LOT of inexperienced transit riders onboard. I've mentioned this before here - people wait until the train STOPS before they stand (thinking it's an airplane) and the absence of disembarking passengers encourages those boarding to go ahead and do so. This results in a massive bottleneck in the vestibule. Despite there being constant instructions, many of the passengers aren't familiar with English or Spanish.
> 
> I do hope that the regularity of the service will speed this up and help with the transit culture in the US (along with no smoking on the platforms - not a Brightline problem because they keep people off, but on other transit in the WPB-Miami basin).


I have ridden BL one time around 12 months ago. Oddly enough they opened all the train car doors manually with a large key from the outside. Wildly inefficient but I assume there was no rush given the train was on time if not a min or two early. Hopefully that practice has been discarded by now.


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## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> I still don't get why this is such a big deal to go a mile west to get onto Tri Rail for local service, from FLL, north.


(1) It depends on where you're going. A pair of Ubers/Lyfts can obliterate cost savings over a mile or two. Also, Brightline /is/ faster...Boca-->Metrorail Transfer is 1:06 on Tri-Rail vs 47 min. on Brightline to downtown, but Metrorail seems to be about another 20 minutes to get downtown (plus the transfer itself), so you're looking at 1:30 or so for Tri-Rail+Metro vs. 47 min. on Brightline. I think saving most of an hour is probably worth a few extra bucks.
(2) The bigger deal is on the south end, where Brightline goes into downtown Miami while Tri-Rail, at least for now, doesn't. See above for why that's a decently big deal. If you're going to Miami Beach, etc., similar caveats apply.


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## west point

But the opposite applies if a passenger is going tothe MIA airport. Tri rail to MIA airport Vs Brightline + transfer + metrp rail/


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## jis

west point said:


> But the opposite applies if a passenger is going tothe MIA airport. Tri rail to MIA airport Vs Brightline + transfer + metrp rail/


However, that is not one of the major groups that are designed to be served by Brightline, so while interesting, it is less relevant.


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: Thermite Welding at Cocoa Yard Lead North​


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## Anderson

west point said:


> But the opposite applies if a passenger is going tothe MIA airport. Tri rail to MIA airport Vs Brightline + transfer + metrp rail/


Actually, that's not _quite _the case. I think it's about break-even:
Brightline Boca-Miami is 0:47
Metrorail Overtown-Miami Airport is 0:13
So that's 1:00 plus the transfer (probably less than 15 minutes).

Tri-Rail is 1:15 Boca-Miami Airport.

So there's a very good chance that the two are a break-even proposition vs one another.
At WPB, you're looking at 1:44 for Tri-Rail vs 1:12 for Brightline, so Brightline probably has the edge there on time. I'm not sure about the relevant parking policies, but Brightline+ offers rideshare connections...so Brightline probably has an added edge there. Tri-Rail will win on price, but Brightline on comfort.


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## VentureForth

What's the Over/Under for seeing a Brightline train on the 528 corridor by the end of the year?


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## cirdan

jis said:


> One very interesting feature on the 528 segment is that the interlockings do not have any connection from the power grid. They are entirely powered by solar panels and large battery packs capable of powering them for a couple of days without being charged. If they wished to get grid connections they would required to install many miles of transmission lines, which they thought was going to be more expensive than having battery packs that lasted many days with the highly predictable consumption, and with properly scaled solar panels to charge them.


I guess in Florida sunshine is more consistent and reliable than in many other parts of the world.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> More importantly, for some of those locations there is no utility power line of any sort within 5 or 6 miles. So they would have to install new lines just for the few watts that these sites would typically consume.


But they need to run cables anyway, don't they? For the data communication between signals. Or is this communication wireless? If it is cabled, then running lightweight power cables in the same trenches would not have been a huge deal breaker.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> I guess in Florida sunshine is more consistent and reliable than in many other parts of the world.


The fact that the functionality does not require all that much power helps. The battery pack would probably last without charging for as much as a week if sized properly.


cirdan said:


> But they need to run cables anyway, don't they? For the data communication between signals. Or is this communication wireless? If it is cabled, then running lightweight power cables in the same trenches would not have been a huge deal breaker.


Communication is wireless. So no, there is no cable of any sort. They do need the wireless for PTC anyway, so why string a cable for a very low bandwidth communication when it can ride the same high capacity wireless link as just one more multiplexed channel?

Even CSX on the Atlantic Coast Line uses wireless communication to Control Points now. The service they use is provided by Verizon.


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## Asher

Qapla said:


> Brightline Construction: Thermite Welding at Cocoa Yard Lead North​



Interesting process. Lot of work goes into cutting down the klickiti klack.


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## jis

Asher said:


> Interesting process. Lot of work goes into cutting down the klickiti klack.


That is mostly a side effect of doing things to cut down on maintenance needs.


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## Asher

jis said:


> That is mostly a side effect of doing things to cut down on maintenance needs.


Yep, it’s all part of the maintenance we don’t have to Hear about.


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## Qapla

A friend of mine works for a communication service company (they install and provide wire/cable/fiber) for the Internet. They install quite a bit of it in RR Right of Way ... he said, they have some along the new Brightline tracks.


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## Brian_tampa

Qapla said:


> A friend of mine works for a communication service company (they install and provide wire/cable/fiber) for the Internet. They install quite a bit of it in RR Right of Way ... he said, they have some along the new Brightline tracks.


I would not be surprised there is also fiber optic along the new ROW. For critical systems there is always a redundant path. And for this application, I am sure Brightline has their own FO network to connect their stations and facilities between Miami and Orlando. This is probably for their enterprise network.


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## jis

Brightline Targeting Late Summer/Early Fall Miami-Orlando Rail Service


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Brightline Targeting Late Summer/Early Fall Miami-Orlando Rail Service
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


"By the end of 2022."

"January or February 2023."

"2nd qtr. 2023."

"Late summer or early fall 2023."

Believe it when you see it.


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction Bridge Edition: Installing the Final Span at Crane Creek - November 2022​


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## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> Brightline Targeting Late Summer/Early Fall Miami-Orlando Rail Service
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


It looks like what I said about Brightline service to Orlando starting in the summer of 2023 is going to happen after all. Maybe late Summer, but Summer nonetheless. I just hope the testing goes smoothly.


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## cirdan

Caesar La Rock said:


> It looks like what I said about Brightline service to Orlando starting in the summer of 2023 is going to happen after all. Maybe late Summer, but Summer nonetheless. I just hope the testing goes smoothly.


I expect it will go smoothly. The first segment is typically the greatest risk with this type of thing as afterwards they can build on experience and know what to watch out for. I think Brightline is now a well oiled machine and getting better by the day.


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction Bridge Edition: Final Girder Installation at the Eau Gallie River


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## McIntyre2K7

Brightline's latest tweet.


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## joelkfla

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Brightline's latest tweet.



11 of 18 trains are "locals" stopping at all stations, 7 are express stopping only at FTL.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> 11 of 18 trains are "locals" stopping at all stations, 7 are express stopping only at FTL.


Makes sense to have a mix of stopping patterns instead of having everything stop everywhere.


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## chrsjrcj

It looks like the stopping patterns are geared toward commuters heading to Miami in the morning and from Miami in the afternoon.


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## Caesar La Rock

Brightline update of the final girder installation at Sebastian River.


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## jis

Commuter train service under development along Birghtline route in Miami-Dade and Broward Counties...

Brightline closer to Broward Miami-Dade Commuter Rail deal

Here is the official Coastal Link web site:






Coastal Link Commuter Rail


Planning Broward County Transportation Now & In the Future for mass transit options including, buses, rail, cars, freight, and air.




browardmpo.org





Here is a quick summary slideset (PDF) including the four alternatives for the replacement of the New River Bridge in Fort Laudrdale:



https://browardmpo.org/images/WhatWeDo/Coastal_Link_Commuter_Rail/BCCC_01.12.2021_Item_42_Additional_Material.pdf


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: The Completed Frontenac Improvement Project Full Flight Overview​


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## Qapla

Brightline Aventura Station FULL TOUR & FIRST RIDE!​


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Brightline Construction: The Completed Frontenac Improvement Project Full Flight Overview​



Frontenac is in Sharpes, FL which is actually North of where the Brightline route to Orlando branches off. But the interlocking and track layout change feeds into the Cocoa Junction so is part of the Brightline related redevelopment.


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## Qapla

jis said:


> the interlocking and track layout change feeds into the Cocoa Junction so is part of the Brightline related redevelopment.



Yes, that is covered in the video


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction Bridge Edition: Turkey Creek - December 2022


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## Caesar La Rock

Another video from Roaming Railfan. He's posting almost daily now.


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## Qapla

Boca Raton mayor says Brightline's arrival in city is 'game-changer'​



If you click on the "Watch on YouTube" link it will take you to the video


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## Qapla

Brightline Aventura and Boca Raton Station Grand Openings​


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## Jovet

Brian_tampa said:


> Nice video. I do have a question about the new intermediate signal for the east main track. Since it is positioned halfway into the yard lead switch, how will train engineers know the position of the switch? If the signal is a true intermediate signal, it would not show the switch (or route) position. I understand that FEC signals show route not speed indications. Anyone know how this switch will be signaled, if at all?



It's odd that the intermidate signal is positioned _right in the middle_ of the switch. But, it's a manual-throw turnout (trains will have to stop and get out and throw it), and the turnout is not signaled. The usual practice is to put such a signal right in front of the points of the turnout, so that if it is unlocked or in the Reverse position, the signal will show its most-restrictive aspect to trains approaching the points to warn of that fact.


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## jis

Jovet said:


> It's odd that the intermidate signal is positioned _right in the middle_ of the switch. But, it's a manual-throw turnout (trains will have to stop and get out and throw it), and the turnout is not signaled. The usual practice is to put such a signal right in front of the points of the turnout, so that if it is unlocked or in the Reverse position, the signal will show its most-restrictive aspect to trains approaching the points to warn of that fact.


This point has been raised in several forums and so far we have heard nothing from Florida Dispatching Company on this matter. I will keep you posted if I hear anything from the FECRS folks who have the most contacts with FECR, Brightline and Florida Dispatching Company, who actually dispatch all of FECR and Brightline in Florida.


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## Caesar La Rock




----------



## joelkfla

Brightline seats booked to 2 different passengers. @10:50, Car attendant says the system was messed up by Aventura station not opening when planned, and the system erroneously cancelled bookings for both Aventura & Boca.


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## Touchdowntom9

joelkfla said:


> Brightline seats booked to 2 different passengers. @10:50, Car attendant says the system was messed up by Aventura station not opening when planned, and the system erroneously cancelled bookings for both Aventura & Boca.



on the bright side, seems like there is a ton of demand


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: ATC20 CP Cocoa to CP Bonaventure Complete Overview​


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## Qapla

Brightline Construction: 2022 Year in Review Complete Project Overview​


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## jis

Brightline PTC/ATC testing plans









Brightline update: PTC plans outlined for 125-mph operation - Trains


COCOA, Fla. — Brightline crews are set to resume 110-mph tests this Friday, Jan. 6, south of Fort Pierce, Fla., as part of continuing preparations for the passenger operator’s expansion of service to Orlando. The tests in Martin and St. Luicie counties, along an 11-mile stretch of the 129-mile...




www.trains.com





The PTC Implementation Plan can be found at:






Regulations.gov







www.regulations.gov


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## Qapla

Brightline Aventura Train Service Review​


----------

