# Blackout Times & Peak Rates



## newlatidude (Jan 24, 2016)

Here is some very disappointing news from the AGR representative on FlyerTalk. The "no more blackout dates" turns out not to be entirely true. Some seats will be blacked out at peak times. Others will only be available to Select Plus and Select Executive during peak times. Oh and also you may have to pay more points during peak times even when there is availability.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26073734-post328.html



> *Reward Travel Availability during peak dates/times*: While we have removed blackout date restrictions on reward travel, you may find limited availability on peak travel dates or times and it is possible that not every seat will be available for redemption. When redeeming points for trips during peak travel dates and times, some itineraries may be available only to our Select Plus and Select Executive members. For best results, we recommend that members log in to their Amtrak Guest Rewards account before searching for available itineraries. Depending on availability during peak travel times, you may find premium pricing on some departures. The peak departure may be available at a higher point cost or not available for redemption unless the member has Select Plus or Select Executive status. Members with Select Plus or Select Executive status, if not logged in, may see availability at a higher price or no availability, but if they log in they may find they are able to book the itinerary at regular point cost or at a premium.


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## Ryan (Jan 24, 2016)

That's a very airlinery thing to do. Not cool to not disclose that until now.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 24, 2016)

Ryan said:


> That's a very airlinery thing to do. Not cool to not disclose that until now.


Not cool at all. Not even 24 hours into the new program, and we already find out it is not quite as advertised. To quote a very insightful poster at Flyertalk  , pretty shoddy behavior.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 24, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > That's a very airlinery thing to do. Not cool to not disclose that until now.
> ...


Had to go look to see who this insightful poser was - and I was right in my guess.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 24, 2016)

Surprised? Gotcha!

And the hits just keep on coming in the New and Unimproved AGR2.0 that, as the roll out blurb said, will Enhance your Amtrak Travel Experience!


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## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2016)

Yup, this is very disappointing to find out now. I am very surprised they would not tell us beforehand. My travel plans would have been significantly changed had I known this earlier.


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## Anderson (Jan 25, 2016)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26075493-post340.html

With due respect to Anthony, there's a difference between being stuck as the unfortunate exponent of a bad policy (which was his status before now) and being, quite frankly, complicit in a material misleading of the traveling public. I could make a bunch of snarky remarks right now (they'll likely come), but at this point I'm going to say that, even as an SE member, I'm rather annoyed at best.


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## jebr (Jan 25, 2016)

I posted this in one of the other threads, but it's a terrible policy that is AGR trying to have their cake (having points tied to the dollar value of the ticket) and eat it too (additional surcharge only for points redemptions on "peak days.")

It's terrible and it makes me wonder if anything else is hiding in the implementation of the new AGR that we don't know about yet.


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## tonys96 (Jan 25, 2016)

Anderson said:


> http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26075493-post340.html
> 
> With due respect to Anthony, there's a difference between being stuck as the unfortunate exponent of a bad policy (which was his status before now) and being, quite frankly, complicit in a material misleading of the traveling public. I could make a bunch of snarky remarks right now (they'll likely come), but at this point I'm going to say that, even as an SE member, I'm rather annoyed at best.


I do not think it fair to single out any particular person, this seems to be a corporate decision, and Anthony's job is just to articulate what he is told to articulate, when he is told to do it.

Still seems like a bait and switch by AGR.


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## tricia (Jan 25, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26075493-post340.html
> ...


If Anthony's an honest person, he must be hating his job right now. (No disrespect intended to Anthony. Contempt certainly intended for any employer that requires employees to lie.)

Bait and switch indeed.


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## Ryan (Jan 25, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/26075493-post340.html
> ...


Seconded. That's a pretty cheap shot, from a moderator no less.


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

A fervent plea ... Please take personal bickering, specially one indulged in from a position of power even more, to pm please. Let us just discuss the inappropriateness of the process and communication used without ascribing Anthony as the specific source without any proof of such, specially about one who is a very good friend of many on this board (he is the founder of this board and this board would not even be using the word Amtrak in its name without Anthony's efforts), and who may know a little bit more of the truth than many of us.


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## printman2000 (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> A fervent plea ... Please take personal bickering, specially one indulged in from a position of power even more, to pm please. Let us just discuss the inappropriateness of the process and communication used without ascribing Anthony as the specific source without any proof of such, specially about one who is a very good friend of many on this board (he is the founder of this board and this board would not even be using the word Amtrak in its name without Anthony's efforts), and who may know a little bit more of the truth than many of us.


Like


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> A fervent plea ... Please take personal bickering, specially one indulged in from a position of power even more, to pm please. Let us just discuss the inappropriateness of the process and communication used without ascribing Anthony as the specific source without any proof of such, specially about one who is a very good friend of many on this board (he is the founder of this board and this board would not even be using the word Amtrak in its name without Anthony's efforts), and who may know a little bit more of the truth than many of us.


I agree. If we're going to blame Antony for anything we should probably keep it limited to decisions that were his alone to make. Such as handing the forum over to an invasive spam host with similar warnings as the current blackout date fiasco. Sorry for not defending our dear leader from every possible criticism but I'm still rather salty over that decision.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 25, 2016)

I agree with jis and DA on this topic!

And as others have said,( including me last year when AGR2.0 intro was rolled out) this is clearly Bait and Switch on AGR/Amtrak's part.( lets remember AGR is part of Amtrak and Anthony has many bosses who have been known to make moronic and short sided decisions!) YMMV


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

Devil said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > A fervent plea ... Please take personal bickering, specially one indulged in from a position of power even more, to pm please. Let us just discuss the inappropriateness of the process and communication used without ascribing Anthony as the specific source without any proof of such, specially about one who is a very good friend of many on this board (he is the founder of this board and this board would not even be using the word Amtrak in its name without Anthony's efforts), and who may know a little bit more of the truth than many of us.
> ...


We should probably let sleeping dogs lay where they are, but now with 20/20 hindsight, it seems the simplest and cleanest thing to do back then would probably have been simply to shut the whole thing (AU) down and be done with it, and completely avoid all the carping that goes on.  But all that is much water under the bridge now.


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## calwatch (Jan 25, 2016)

Back on topic, it seems that the different multiplier is double the number of points (i.e., 69 points/dollar instead of 34.5).

 For instance, an end to end, Chicago to DC trip:

3/24: $98 seat, $264 roomette, $498 bedroom
3,381 pts seat, 9,108 pt roomette, 34,362 pt bedroom 

3/25: $98 seat, $325 roomette, $400 bedroom
3,381 pts seat, 22,425 pt roomette, 13,800 pt bedroom

This is totally inconsistent with the intent of AGR 2.0 and is internally non consistent. So for arbitrary dates, buckets, or trips, the number of points doubles? If days were announced PRIOR to AGR 2.0 where it would be double points to redeem (or points are worth half their value, depending on how you look at it), then that would be fine. But "no blackouts" also implies that if you can pay for a ticket with cash, you can do it for points, and at a consistent ratio (otherwise, why put a fare calculator in the first place???) Obviously peak travel will cost more than non peak travel, but to mess with the ratio is wholly uncalled for.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 25, 2016)

No it just show that double points occur when there is limited availability, both actually, and historically.

AGR 2.0 is what ever Amtrak wants. The people have no say other than take it or leave it.


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

It is just more like what airlines have been doing for years. I think this should have been clarified in the transition documentation.

As for it being inconsistent with AGR's goals (a) I don't exactly know what AGR's goals are other than making Acelas competitive with airlines, and (b) even if I knew it would possibly take bit of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that it is inconsistent or even the opposite conclusion for that matter.

In some sense it stands to reason that you would want to maximize cash paid trips on heavily traveled days. The question is how far would you go to have that outcome while not shutting out reward travel entirely.

Yeah, I don't like it as it potentially affects me. But I can see the business logic behind it.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Abuse? Please. Anthony hasn't been a child for many years now so why are we still treating him like one? How old does he have to get before we can take off the kid gloves and treat him like an adult? Using Amtrak in the name of a fan forum is legitimate fair use and much of the content from Anthony's tenure is outdated anyway. That being said I don't hold AGR's fuzzy math and arbitrary rules against Anthony. Regardless of whatever role he played it's really no different than any other monkey points program. Anyone who puts their faith in a loyalty program is destined for disappointment. Earn and burn is the law of the loyalty land. They don't call our consumer economy "buyer beware" for nothing.


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

Anyway coming back to the subject at hand, I am actually surprised that I did not expect this to happen. No I don't like it, but it does have some business logic to it. No wonder many airlines have practiced this sort of thing for a while now. But I am aware of none that layers this on top of fine grained fare value based points requirement.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 25, 2016)

For many years airline loyalty rules remained surprisingly relaxed and bonuses were being routinely increased. It was a great time for customers willing to learn the ropes and manage the minutia. Then airlines started buying out their competitors, reducing flights, retiring aircraft, and carefully consolidating around a handful of massive fortress hubs. That allowed them to crack down on benefits for all but their most prolific customers. Amtrak has so little direct competition that AGR members have little if any power to influence anything directly. It's either Amtrak's way or the highway at this point. Which is fine. I've already seen most of mileage I wanted to experience so Amtrak can charge as much as they want and I can either fly, drive, or stay home as the case may be. I'm a huge fan of passenger rail but I'm not so blind to the appeal that I'll put up with unlimited increases in cost in exchange for perpetually shrinking services. A relatively short Amtrak connection here or there is enough for me. The rest of my travel money is better spent on new passenger rail experiences in other countries for similar money.


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## Anderson (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


The worst part is that I'm to a point where I wouldn't entirely disagree with doing this. I know Amtrak can't really do that for practical reasons, but it feels more merciful to put a good program down while it's still good, in an orderly and dignified way, than to have it staggering along as a monstrosity. If Amtrak offered a significant fraction of AGR points as points on the airline of my choosing, as of now I'd be inclined to take it.


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## CHamilton (Jan 25, 2016)

Ah, to heck with loyalty programs. Bring back Green Stamps!


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

I was talking of shutting down AU, not AGR. That was in response to DA's mention about the selection of a, what turned out to be IMHO, not very customer sensitive or competent hosting service.

The Amtrak program has just become more like airline programs, with an interesting twist or two. I am ambivalent about it and since it does not have any lifetime status thing there is little incentive to try to collect TQP anymore, since from my vantage point the privileges of Amtrak status are not that useful any more.

Then again I have hardly ever been a prime Amtrak customer, so my absence will hardly be noticed.


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## Hal (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> I was talking of shutting down AU, not AGR. That was in response to DA's mention about the selection of a, what turned out to be IMHO, not very customer sensitive or competent hosting service.
> 
> The Amtrak program has just become more like airline programs, with an interesting twist or two. I am ambivalent about it and since it does not have any lifetime status thing there is little incentive to try to collect TQP anymore, since from my vantage point the privileges of Amtrak status are not that useful any more.
> 
> Then again I have hardly ever been a prime Amtrak customer, so my absence will hardly be noticed.


It has become more like an airline program because Amtrak has been hiring airline people and airline contractors.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Anderson (Jan 25, 2016)

jis said:


> I was talking of shutting down AU, not AGR. That was in response to DA's mention about the selection of a, what turned out to be IMHO, not very customer sensitive or competent hosting service.
> 
> The Amtrak program has just become more like airline programs, with an interesting twist or two. I am ambivalent about it and since it does not have any lifetime status thing there is little incentive to try to collect TQP anymore, since from my vantage point the privileges of Amtrak status are not that useful any more.
> 
> Then again I have hardly ever been a prime Amtrak customer, so my absence will hardly be noticed.


Well, the "not screwing you as badly" aspect is still there with upper tier status.

One thing I have to wonder: If Amtrak and AGR as we know them now had been what was in place back in 2008-10, would I have ever taken Amtrak as much as I did? I _highly_ doubt it.


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

I don't think the presence of AGR played a significant role in my decisions to take Amtrak, except for some "points runs", to fill in a few points to the next status level. Now that there is close to zero chance of reaching a status that even remotely matters - S+, is unlikely since I have not budgeted spending something of the order of $5000 on Amtrak ( that much money gets me a round trip business class ticket to India and back, which really is way more important for me), I guess we part ways amicably in a manner of speaking, since I actually doubt that my Amtrak riding habits in the Florida incarnation of me will change much. Just that AGR status won't be a goal anymore.


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## Anderson (Jan 25, 2016)

With me there would probably have been less of a push for status and so on...I first really decided that Amtrak was "worth my time" for long-haul trips due to a massive influx of points from the "Take Ten" offer (I guess that would have been in 2011). I already had a pretty pile of points at that point (from a few LD trips in 2008-10) so that put me over 20k and enabled me to plan out a nice, long Amtrak-based vacation (IIRC I got the credit card in the aftermath of that and ended up using 40k points to travel RVR-ABQ (cash ABQ-FLG) and LAX-DAL (via KCY/STL)). The remnants of that trip are still visible in my signature (when I didn't know how I was getting home).


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## copyright1997 (Jan 26, 2016)

I've been a fairly long term Amtrak rider and joined Amtrak rewards around 2000. Many, many hundreds of trips (mostly, but not exclusively work related), and took the train whenever possible over driving, a bus, planes, etc. I've instilled that love of trains into my son, who has pretty much memorized the entire Amtrak route system timetables and stations (at least for all of the long distance trains). It would not surprise me at all if he eventually ends up as an Amtrak employee, and we even have a neighbor who is a conductor on Amtrak. I've also emphasized Amtrak Rewards over other programs as a "good deal" to friends and family, with not only my trips but also the Amtrak Rewards Master Card and on top of that transferring points from Starwood to Amtrak.

Having said that, with the program changes (and on top of that this latest piece of unwelcome news which to me is pretty unscrupulous ), I will pretty much wrap up my use of Amtrak (at least for longer distance travel). I still have 15k or so points sitting around, which I will use up under the new program instead of booking revenue fares. I already have booked (on the old program) one last cross country extravaganza using 60k points. Not that Amtrak is following this thread, or even cares what I do, but just as a data point they are losing someone with multiple trips/year, use of over 30k year in CC spend to them along with extra points transfers from other program. I can't control what Amtrak does, only what I do.

I guess it is time to move on, its been great while it lasted.


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## tricia (Jan 26, 2016)

copyright1997 said:


> I've been a fairly long term Amtrak rider and joined Amtrak rewards around 2000. Many, many hundreds of trips (mostly, but not exclusively work related), and took the train whenever possible over driving, a bus, planes, etc. I've instilled that love of trains into my son, who has pretty much memorized the entire Amtrak route system timetables and stations (at least for all of the long distance trains). It would not surprise me at all if he eventually ends up as an Amtrak employee, and we even have a neighbor who is a conductor on Amtrak. I've also emphasized Amtrak Rewards over other programs as a "good deal" to friends and family, with not only my trips but also the Amtrak Rewards Master Card and on top of that transferring points from Starwood to Amtrak.
> 
> Having said that, with the program changes (and on top of that this latest piece of unwelcome news which to me is pretty unscrupulous ), I will pretty much wrap up my use of Amtrak (at least for longer distance travel). I still have 15k or so points sitting around, which I will use up under the new program instead of booking revenue fares. I already have booked (on the old program) one last cross country extravaganza using 60k points. Not that Amtrak is following this thread, or even cares what I do, but just as a data point they are losing someone with multiple trips/year, use of over 30k year in CC spend to them along with extra points transfers from other program. I can't control what Amtrak does, only what I do.
> 
> I guess it is time to move on, its been great while it lasted.


Me too, all the above. Haven't traveled as many miles as you, but have chosen Amtrak over other modes whenever I could--built whole vacations around their skeletal network and thin schedule. And I've talked with dozens of people about Amtrak being a great way to travel, and AGR a "good deal." Not any more.

I particularly resent being lied to in the lead-up to this new program. Maybe not explicit "lies" but definitely misleading, unscrupulous, shabby. Such a pointlessly poor way to manage customer relations.


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## PaulM (Jan 26, 2016)

calwatch said:


> For instance, an end to end, Chicago to DC trip:
> 3/24: $98 seat, $264 roomette, $498 bedroom
> 
> 3,381 pts seat, 9,108 pt roomette, 34,362 pt bedroom
> ...


Nothing inconsistent or arbitrary about 3/25. It must be the day before Casimir Pulaski day; and the Capitol Limited originates in Chicago. Oh, and of course Casimir Pulaski devotees are much more likely to book a roomette than a bedroom.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 26, 2016)

PaulM said:


> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> > For instance, an end to end, Chicago to DC trip:
> ...


3/25 is the Friday before Easter, so it could be considered a peak day


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## Anderson (Jan 26, 2016)

Oh, agreed that it could...and it looks like we're going to see far more roomette/bedroom "inversions" as a side-effect of this if roomettes are what are usually getting hit with a "penalty price" (I'm inclined to go with that..."surge pricing", Uber notwithstanding, is a bit neutral...I'd like to stick a 50-100% surcharge with a negative term if possible).


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## rtabern (Jan 26, 2016)

Wow, seriously?? Just getting in on this conversation. So, now, sometimes sleepers are going to be DOUBLE what was initially promised with the AGR 2.0 fare calculator? SERIOUSLY??? If that is the case, then it's even more reason to burn or transfer as many AGR points as possible... and as quickly as possible.

I was a "saver"... and had over 300,000 AGR points built up when the announcement came. I burned about half that on an 11-day bedroom cross-country trip for late April and early May 2016. We will be going from Chicago to DC to Florida to New Orleans... back to Chicago... to LA... upto PDX... and back to LAX. This will really be our last time ever doing something like this in a bedroom.

I have 150K points left --- and --- after reading this --- just transferred 50K to Choice Hotels --- which will be changed to 45K Southwest Airlines Rapid Reward Points.

A 45K point transfer like that counts towards the Companion Pass --- so open a credit card for 50K --- and you are most of the way towards earning the Companion Pass. We did that for 2016 and it's an awesome perk. We will be well on our way towards our 2017 Companion Pass with that nice transfer out of AGR points. (Note you have to be S+ or SE to transfer to Choice --- 50K cap for S+ and unlimited for SE)

I still have 100K left --- I will probably transfer another 50K out to Choice between 1/1/17 and 2/28/17 --- and then just burn off the remaining 50K on the Hoosier State and other travel.

It's sad to see such a great program end, but it was almost too good to be true. As I have said, my attitude is Amtrak and AGR felt like it had to do what was best for it -- so it had every right to make the changes it did. Reciprocally, we will do what is best for our travel needs and our family... and that will be to dramatically reduce our Amtrak travel immediately (or after we take our trip in April/May 2016).

The hardest pill for me to swallow was the 100 point minimum cut. So instead of earning 300 points (200 rail + 100 S+ bonus) from Chicago to Glenview, IL under AGR 1.0 -- I will be earning just 40 points under AGR 2.0. That is almost a 90% reduction in the number of points one can earn. Yes, I would purposely do short runs to earn Select Plus status for access to the Met Lounge in Chicago and the Club Acela out east.

With the above mention cut, it means an end to my Select Plus status and lounge access -- which I have had for 10 years --- effective 2/28/17. I am just not as inclined to travel on Amtrak without the nice lounges to wait in and the free drinks and snacks -- but especially the priority boarding privileges. And no, it's not worth it to pay $40 for my wife and I to board via the Legacy Club. And, guess what? Even if you opt to pay the $500 for the annual pass to the Legacy Club... you are going to have to still pay an additional $10 per use of priority boarding!!! No way!!!

Now, under AGR 2.0, you have to pay basically $5,000 to keep your Select Plus status. That was versus $800.00 under AGR 1.0 by doing "point runs". I love Amtrak and my trips --- but if I have a spare $5,000 to drop on a train trip --- it's certainly not going to be on Amtrak. I am going to ride the Canadian or a private rail car trip where the food is much better --- I'm not limited to coffee and free juice for just 5 hours in the morning --- my water isn't limited to just two bottles for upto a 3 night, 4 day trip --- etc., etc.

And yes, maybe I am a "train snob", but we only really like traveling overnight in a bedroom -- where we can sleep next to each other and have more space -- especially for anything more than a 1 night trip. I'd rather fly than do coach or even a roomette most of the time.

People who are married or like to travel with someone are also burned even more with AGR 2.0 --- so now my companion will cost me extra points?

In the end, maybe some will feel we "played the system" with short point runs and then redeeming them for bedrooms. Oh, well. We were still paying $6-10 per ride on the Hiawatha for each trip -- and bumping up the ridership stats on that train by 100-200 riders per year for each of the last 10 years we have been doing AGR.

Yes, just stinks all around. Again, Amtrak and it's AGR employees have to do what they want and what is best for them -- and we will do what is best for us. Just that simple. I will always remember and treasure the rides that we did on Amtrak and the great deal we got under AGR 1.0, but as they say -- all good things come to an end. We will focus our efforts on doing trips with the Southwest Airlines Companion Pass and saving 50% on every flight that we take now... so more flying and visiting National Parks -- and less time on the train. Everyone else who likes AGR 2.0 -- that is cool -- enjoy your shorter rides that are a better value sometimes.


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## City of Miami (Jan 26, 2016)

PaulM said:


> Nothing inconsistent or arbitrary about 3/25. It must be the day before Casimir Pulaski day; and the Capitol Limited originates in Chicago. Oh, and of course Casimir Pulaski devotees are much more likely to book a roomette than a bedroom.


Spring Break. Flying is expensive that week too.....I know, I'm trying to get back from MIA.


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## jis (Jan 26, 2016)

Actually you have to spend $4000 if you travel exclusively by Business Class to make Select+. Don't forget the 25% TQP bonus for BC.


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## me_little_me (Jan 26, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree. If we're going to blame Antony for anything we should probably keep it limited to decisions that were his alone to make. Such as handing the forum over to an invasive spam host with similar warnings as the current blackout date fiasco. Sorry for not defending our dear leader from every possible criticism but I'm still rather salty over that decision.


To lighten things up a little, let us remember that Antony is also the person that said:

_Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;_

I come to bury AGR 1.0, not to praise it.

The evil that men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones;

So let it be with AGR 1.0.


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## Anderson (Jan 26, 2016)

I never considered "exchanging out" AGR points per above, but now I'm giving it at least some consideration. Hindsight is 20/20 but had this been disclosed at the start of the whole affair I might well have cashed out the majority of my AGR points for something else (180,000 SkyPesos would get me two round-trips to London, for example)...the ability to effectively earn 6-8 points per dollar spent on Amtrak for, for example, Virgin Atlantic would at this point be more valuable than the AGR points themselves. A lot of the issue for me is just the fact that instead of having "fixed value" redemptions (e.g. the zone map) or even "clearly tied to cost redemptions" (e.g. what we were _told_ in no uncertain terms this was) there's no clear link.

I will say that in general I don't dispute AGR's right to change the program. Where I'm "over the moon" on this is the misleading presentation of the new program and on _that_ I consider their behavior to be immoral. Generally they've got the right to change the program (I'd take exception if there were a "surprise snap devaluation" but they've been pretty good about not doing that), it's misleading everyone on that front.


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## Anderson (Jan 26, 2016)

me_little_me said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. If we're going to blame Antony for anything we should probably keep it limited to decisions that were his alone to make. Such as handing the forum over to an invasive spam host with similar warnings as the current blackout date fiasco. Sorry for not defending our dear leader from every possible criticism but I'm still rather salty over that decision.
> ...


That is...painfully apt.


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## jis (Jan 27, 2016)

Oh judgement! Though art fled to Brutish beasts

And men have lost their reason

Bear with me

My heart is in the coffin there with AGR 1.0

I must pause till it come back to me.

That is the end of the first section of that speech duly modified to AGR. I used the original in declamation contests at least three times!


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## rtabern (Jan 27, 2016)

jis said:


> Actually you have to spend $4000 if you travel exclusively by Business Class to make Select+. Don't forget the 25% TQP bonus for BC.


Very true, Jis. But, $5,000 in sleeping car fares still to reach S+. Money still better spent on a better overall experience on VIA or a PV chater.


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## jis (Jan 27, 2016)

Yes of course it does change the threshold for choice points. The irony is though that this exactly may be what Amtrak was shooting for. It may be that they made a conscious decision to not give away as much as they for as little. I don't know for sure. Just positing a possibility in the realm of such.


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## JoeBas (Jan 27, 2016)

jis said:


> Yes of course it does change the threshold for choice points. The irony is though that this exactly may be what Amtrak was shooting for. It may be that they made a conscious decision to not give away as much as they for as little. I don't know for sure. Just positing a possibility in the realm of such.


The problem is that in trying to throw out the "Serial gamer" bathwater, they're throwing out the "regular traveler" baby as well!


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## neroden (Jan 27, 2016)

Hal said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I was talking of shutting down AU, not AGR. That was in response to DA's mention about the selection of a, what turned out to be IMHO, not very customer sensitive or competent hosting service.
> ...


Oh dear. That is *always* a mistake.

The airline business may have lost more money than any other business in world history, and is certainly in the top ten Warren Buffett said (not entirely a joke) that if the Wright Brothers had been shot down at Kitty Hawk it would have saved investors billions upon billions of dollars. Their customer service reputation has been zilch since the end of regulation in the 1970s. It is completely crazy of Amtrak to hire anyone from the airlines. Maybe it's not quite necessary to *blacklist* people who worked at airlines, but it should count as worthless on a resume.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 27, 2016)

Totally agree that Airline experience should be a dis-qualifier for Amtrak hiring!( pilots and flight attendants not included!)


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## me_little_me (Jan 27, 2016)

As a reminder to folks comparing prices, don't forget that Points are based on ADULT fares with no discounts - not Senior, AAA, NAARP or VA Advantage. When looking up a potential trip, I forgot that and thought the points "price" was a rip until I changed the "seniors" back to "adults" and found the explanation. Doesn't make me happy but I remember it being discussed back when. Had forgotten.


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## Ryan (Jan 27, 2016)

I'm going to be crazy again and suggest that resumes be judged individually without rules like "no airline experience".


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 27, 2016)

Ryan said:


> I'm going to be crazy again and suggest that resumes be judged individually without rules like "no airline experience".


How about no ex-Naval Officers need apply?


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## Anderson (Jan 28, 2016)

Cue another session of baby-splitting, but I think it's fair to say that for certain positions "looking unfavorably towards" applications from folks who've been at transportation companies with certain cultures might not be a bad idea and/or might merit a grilling at the interview stage, if only because corporate cultures are like bacterial cultures in many ways...one being that if not properly isolated, spreading infections can develop. Not a "hard bar" but...well, let's face it, if someone wandered in from RyanAir or Spirit I wouldn't be inclined to hire them.


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## Ryan (Jan 28, 2016)

That's reasonable, and it depends on what they have to say. If they walk in and say "While I was there, I learned that their business model is terrible, no way to run a railroad", they're probably worth looking at.


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## Railroad Bill (Jan 28, 2016)

me_little_me said:


> As a reminder to folks comparing prices, don't forget that Points are based on ADULT fares with no discounts - not Senior, AAA, NAARP or VA Advantage. When looking up a potential trip, I forgot that and thought the points "price" was a rip until I changed the "seniors" back to "adults" and found the explanation. Doesn't make me happy but I remember it being discussed back when. Had forgotten.


An excellent point of reminder. I think those of us who have used the AAA & Senior discount fares are just getting used to reverting back to regular adult fares when using the new point system. Good or bad, it is the new rule so we must only seek some consistency in the new program and try to make it work. Or not ride anymore as some have suggested. I like to ride trains so we will make it work the best we can.


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## Anderson (Jan 28, 2016)

I mean...I've gotten bona fide utility out of Amtrak on the Meteor to/from Florida and both the Meteor and Star to/from Washington and New York. As to going to/from NARP meetings (well, aside from those on the East Coast)...I'll make a point of it to a point, but the "fly to a location on Virgin and then train in" option seems like a winner there.

Honestly, backing out from this whole Charlie Foxtrot a few steps what I'm going to do is cut my mentally estimated value of AGR points by about 50% (so valuing them at about 1.4c/pt) on the presumption of further damage inbound such as spreading penalty prices and other increasing restrictions. Basically, on the heels of this, presuming a worst-case scenario seems wise [1]. Considering the 4c/pt I used to value them at this is pretty catastrophic; it still values them more than redeeming for gift cards, though the specter of using them for Hilton (!) does exist and it's plausible I might pursue that down the line.

Something to note, too, is that while the various point values for AGR have always been "high", that's largely because "internal" earning (e.g. for tickets) "only" generates 2-3 points per dollar at the base level depending on the fare chosen (4-5 points per dollar at Select Executive, since I don't think SE doubles the TQP earning bonus). With the other revenue-based award programs, the value of points is generally lower (e.g. Virgin America comes to about 2-2.2c/point and Southwest at 0.9-1.1c/point) but the volume of points earned is _far_ higher (5-10 per dollar spent at Virgin America and 6-24 per dollar spent a Southwest, depending on status and fares selected). Yes, the credit card helps make up some of the difference (you get an additional three points per dollar spent with the Virgin card and two with the Southwest card versus 2-3 with the Amtrak card, so the relative impact is larger) but the point volume is still substantially lower (4-8 points/dollar with the credit cards on Amtrak versus 8-13 on Virgin and 8-26 points/dollar on Southwest).

Also, random note but the Points Estimator has vanished from the AGR site. Not that it was too useful on the redemption side, but worth noting all the same.

[1] As someone else on FT put it, the "surprise" has basically wrecked a lot of credibility on the part of the program's statements.


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## benale (Jan 28, 2016)

I've been an AGR member since 2005. Those 100 point minimums really helped me take many trips over the years without breaking the bank. Sadly,after one more trip in April using points on the old system(20,000 two zone roomette) that will probably be it for a long time. By the way,two people will be using that award. If I were to book it under AGR 2.0 it would cost 65,000 points. Yes, there are upsides to the new system. Many coach trips and sleepers for one person will be cheaper. Good example would be Cleveland-Chicago, formerly straddling two zones. 8,000 points coach,now considerably less.

On balance, if you wanted to take a cross country trip the longest way possible with two people sharing a roomette it costs a lot more now than it did then. Last June we used 40,000 points for two two zone awards. If we booked that same trip now for the same dates this year it would be double.

I am currently select until 2/17. That will be the end of that status. Without the 100 point minimum, there is no way I can afford these trips anymore.


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2016)

This morning I booked a CVS-BEN trip under 2.0 for 11/19, just prior to Thanksgiving. There is a relative moving out to Arizona this summer and the family plan is to meet there to celebrate Turkey Day there this year. So I've been building up points in anticipation of that. I expected to have to buy some points for the return leg, but I was ready to do that.

I picked the cheaper NER/CL/TE route. Coach/Roomette/Roomette. Price was $794 cash, but I booked online for 27,393 points. Would have been 35,000 under 1.0, I believe. That's the good part.

The return trip would have started on 11/26 from Benson, the Saturday after Thanksgiving. It is currently listed as $794 cash as well, but is not bookable online. "Call for Price", it said. I decided not to bother and to clear out my Delta Skymiles account with a flight from Tucson on that day.

Going back on implementing the 2.0 plan announced back in August is just poor business policy. If you are going to say "No Blackouts", you should mean it.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 31, 2016)

The Best Surprise is No Surprise as Holiday Inn used to advertise!

Of course, Marketing and Political Speak don't really mean what they say, we used to call them Lies.


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## PaulM (Feb 4, 2016)

Railroad Bill said:


> I like to ride trains so we will make it work the best we can.


Precisely! I subscribe to the rule just say no to sleaze. But that doesn't work if you are dealing with a monopoly. A sleazy AGR program doesn't make driving less onerous or airlines less masochistic


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## jis (Feb 4, 2016)

PaulM said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I like to ride trains so we will make it work the best we can.
> ...


And I may be the real odd one who just likes to ride trains for the sake of riding trains. I neither find driving onerous nor airlines masochistic. In fact I enjoy both immensely. Yes, each has its challenges, and for each one learns to work around the challenges. but i'll be darned if some bureaucratic **** is going to stop me from enjoying what I enjoy.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 4, 2016)

jis said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > Railroad Bill said:
> ...


Same here


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## JayPea (Feb 4, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > PaulM said:
> ...


+2. I've never believed in throwing out the baby with the bath water. One of my most enjoyable and memorable trips I've taken was last year's road trip to and from Mt. Rushmore.


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## Ryan (Feb 4, 2016)

+3.

Jishnu for President.


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## willem (Feb 5, 2016)

PaulM said:


> I subscribe to the rule just say no to sleaze. But that doesn't work if you are dealing with a monopoly. A sleazy AGR program doesn't make driving less onerous or airlines less masochistic


Thank you for putting in words the idea that has been in my mind.



jis said:


> And I may be the real odd one who just likes to ride trains for the sake of riding trains. I neither find driving onerous nor airlines masochistic. In fact I enjoy both immensely. Yes, each has its challenges, and for each one learns to work around the challenges. but i'll be darned if some bureaucratic **** is going to stop me from enjoying what I enjoy.


I agree with the "work around the challenges" and the sentiment that I will do what I enjoy, but the bureaucrat can reorganize the priorities by changing the relative enjoyment.


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## Anderson (Feb 5, 2016)

willem said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > I subscribe to the rule just say no to sleaze. But that doesn't work if you are dealing with a monopoly. A sleazy AGR program doesn't make driving less onerous or airlines less masochistic
> ...


Not to mention that while I like a good game of strategy as much as the next guy, when said game involves potentially thousands of dollars in effective stored value then *ahem* problems arise and the joy of "working around" those issues shrinks.

More to the point, though, is the fact that there's the question of _which_ game(s) to play. In the face of this nonsense (or, more properly, advance notice of it), my likely course of action would have been to haul somewhere between 100-150k of my AGR points out and kick them over to Chase (where I could use them for a number of non-Amtrak options). Also, "work[ing] around the challenges" generally implies having a system that is at least reasonably straightforward; as far as I'm concerned, AGR has become Calvinball.

That being said...flying is workable if you can find a good airline with a solid First/Business product on a large portion of their system (Virgin America, I'm looking at you) but some airlines are...not so great, to put it mildly (Delta, I'm looking at you). Driving...I honestly don't like driving to the train station, let alone a long roadtrip. I do drive, yes, but not because I want to. It is often a cost-effective and convenient way to get someplace, but it is almost never my first choice to be the one behind the wheel.


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