# Will new cars have newer power outlet layout?



## BCL (Jul 12, 2016)

Anyone know what the future is going to be? I was just thinking about it as I had the aisle seat twice last Saturday and ended up using the outlet. My seatmate was always OK with my use of the outlet, but it certainly got awkward stringing a cable over someone else's lap or when the tray table was lowered. I suppose I could have used an extension cord and then dropped everything to the ground and back up to me, but I didn't think of bringing one.

I'm wondering if maybe we're looking at a future with seat-back or armrest outlets. Maybe even USB power-only outlets. I've seen these on newer aircraft.


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## TinCan782 (Jul 12, 2016)

Agree with BCL...Would be nice if USB power ports were incorporated with the 120VAC.


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## afigg (Jul 14, 2016)

The original joint Amtrak-CHSRA RFP for HSR trainsets specified USB 5V power outlets at each seat. No reason to think that would have changed in the following Amtrak only RFP for the 28 HSR trainsets for the NEC.

The PRIAA specs for the bi-level corridor cars only ask for 120V power outlet on the wall or floor at each pair of seats, no mention of USB power outlets at each seat. Still, nothing to prevent Nippon-Sharyo from including USB power outlets in their bid and subsequent design.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

I wonder if seat back tray tables could have outlets/USB imbedded in them, with wire concealed so kids can't eat them. That would solve the stringing wires all around, though probably costly, (and hard to maintain?) they would be very nice to have.


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## PVD (Jul 14, 2016)

AC + USB receptacles are becoming very common in the marketplace. They are somewhat more expensive, and a bit more maintenance intensive than conventional due to their more complex circuitry (Transformer, regulator, and rectifier for USB) but they have gained considerable traction in the non railcar world. They were installed in the new lounge in Chicago.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 14, 2016)

BCL said:


> I'm wondering if maybe we're looking at a future with seat-back or armrest outlets. Maybe even USB power-only outlets. I've seen these on newer aircraft.


I'm cool with them adding more outlets but please don't take away my full wattage grounded AC outlet.



PVD said:


> AC + USB receptacles are becoming very common in the marketplace. They are somewhat more expensive, and a bit more maintenance intensive than conventional due to their more complex circuitry (Transformer, regulator, and rectifier for USB) but they have gained considerable traction in the non railcar world. They were installed in the new lounge in Chicago.


The big thing now is to support USB-C at the full 100 watt specification since that will be the new charging standard moving forward.


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## PVD (Jul 14, 2016)

Coming off an AC outlet to the recptacle, there should be no problem supplying ample power, the real challenge will be in deciding what standard to apply, there is a hell of a lot of 1.1, 2.0 and 3.0 out there, I too believe C will prevail long term, but adapters and conversion cables may be the rule for a long time. Since it isn't for data, just for charging, the true advantage of C (data throughput/speed) isn't as big a factor.


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## BCL (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> I wonder if seat back tray tables could have outlets/USB imbedded in them, with wire concealed so kids can't eat them. That would solve the stringing wires all around, though probably costly, (and hard to maintain?) they would be very nice to have.


Wires plus some sort of hinge are a PITA. That's done in car doors, but doing that with full AC power could be really problematic. Right now Amtrak tray tables have thin supports and slide out on top of that. Electric power would either require something not terribly reliable and/or limits on the tray features.



Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering if maybe we're looking at a future with seat-back or armrest outlets. Maybe even USB power-only outlets. I've seen these on newer aircraft.
> ...



First I don't see USB-C being likely at this point. Regular USB is so ubiquitous, including higher current 2.1 A outputs. I don't really imagine AC power in aircraft, especially on international flights. However, 5V USB is pretty universal around the world.

Still - on a train I'd be surprised if they eliminated AC power to passengers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 15, 2016)

BCL said:


> First I don't see USB-C being likely at this point. Regular USB is so ubiquitous, including higher current 2.1 A outputs.


Despite their ubiquity USB-A jacks were never intended or designed to survive thousands of routine insertions in a high volume public power port location. Technically neither are standard NEMA-5 power jacks, but that is a much more entrenched standard which is used by devices that last much longer between replacement. USB-C connectors benefit from a softer design methodology and a lower insertion force which should lead to more dependable connections and a longer service life. USB-C is also intended to eventually replace all the various USB-B connections as well, including the ubiquitous Micro-B, which means both ends of the connection should benefit from easier use and improved longevity.



BCL said:


> I don't really imagine AC power in aircraft, especially on international flights.


When I first started flying internationally power connections on international commercial aircraft were a bit of a mess. Sometimes you had to bring/buy/borrow a special proprietary DC-DC adapter that only worked on certain specific airlines and aircraft. Other times you had to bring a more bulky DC-AC-DC transformer setup. These days many international widebody aircraft feature universal power jacks that feed US-spec power to all the major international plugs. The reason this works is because most international plug designs can be physically combined into a single receptacle and nearly every travel-ready device made in the last decade supports a range of voltages that includes the US-spec. Unfortunately you may not always find them at your particular seat or row or cabin.


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## Triley (Jul 15, 2016)

One _huge_ problem I could see about having individual outlets is the fact that you would now have to have seats that would not be able to rotate, which is something that would be a major inconvenience.

When Acelas layover in Boston/Washington and they sit in the station awaiting their return trip, coach cleaners come on and rotate most seat sets to face the opposite direction. Amfleet cars need to be versatile because for example if a car is on a Keystone this week, half the seats face one way, half the seats face the opposite direction, but next week that car may be put on a Regional and everything needs to be facing the same direction. I won't go in to any more scenarios that seats need to rotate, you get the idea. I'm sure there must be a solution that would be able to maintain the wiring in good condition, but I can't help but imagine that would be a good deal more expensive than just leaving the outlets where they are.

On the lighter side of things, and a bit off topic, I look at the variety of prongs used in difference countries, and I can't help but wonder which one hurts the most to step on!


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2016)

You would be better off including them in the design of the support pedestal, with each pedestal having a set facing each direction. Figuring any new design will have flexibility in both seat track and overhead service panels to accomodate higher/lower density seating.


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

Triley said:


> One _huge_ problem I could see about having individual outlets is the fact that you would now have to have seats that would not be able to rotate, which is something that would be a major inconvenience.
> 
> When Acelas layover in Boston/Washington and they sit in the station awaiting their return trip, coach cleaners come on and rotate most seat sets to face the opposite direction. Amfleet cars need to be versatile because for example if a car is on a Keystone this week, half the seats face one way, half the seats face the opposite direction, but next week that car may be put on a Regional and everything needs to be facing the same direction. I won't go in to any more scenarios that seats need to rotate, you get the idea. I'm sure there must be a solution that would be able to maintain the wiring in good condition, but I can't help but imagine that would be a good deal more expensive than just leaving the outlets where they are.
> 
> On the lighter side of things, and a bit off topic, I look at the variety of prongs used in difference countries, and I can't help but wonder which one hurts the most to step on!


I don't think Superliner seats rotate. However, there are rotating electrical connectors. It might be tough incorporating one into a mechanical base where a lot of force is used. The potential for the connection to be damaged is high. For something that doesn't have to rotate infinitely, a heavy duty wire bundle is probably better. A lot of robotics use rotating connectors to transmit power and control, but that's a precision application with extremely tight tolerances. A seat on a train is relatively clunky.

Now that think of it, would overhead outlets make sense? My main issue with the wall outlets is that it gets awkward stringing a cable across the window seat passenger.


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > First I don't see USB-C being likely at this point. Regular USB is so ubiquitous, including higher current 2.1 A outputs.
> ...


I get that it was never meant for that kind of use, but it's a de facto standard now. Heck - the original standard was for 0.5A to the point where some devices might need a special dual plug cable just to access more power. I'm pretty sure that most of these high volume applications use modular plugs that can easily be replaced.

Micro USB is an abomination. Whoever declared that it would be more durable than mini USB must not have looked at it.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2016)

Actually, most of the plugs are molded including the strain relief at the cable ends. When they fail, you buy another cable. Components are available for the make your own crowd, but the average user just buys another highly marked up cable or adapter.


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

PVD said:


> Actually, most of the plugs are molded including the strain relief at the cable ends. When they fail, you buy another cable. Components are available for the make your own crowd, but the average user just buys another highly marked up cable or adapter.


I was really thinking of a plug-in USB-A power socket. Those would need to be replaceable in any kind of public use application.

As far as cables go, there is so much overpriced stuff out there. I just buy for less than $2. Even so, my kid has destroyed several micro USB connectors by pulling out via the cord. The connector is ridiculously fragile. If not pulled out properly, the little prongs in the connector deform. I've tried to strengthen them by using super glue, but that only works to a point.

I had this really high quality one that came with a bike flashlight. It was 6 inches long. My wife asked to borrow it, but yanked it out once when she was in a hurry. Same thing happened.

Even ones that sort of work can be bent. My wife would place something weight on one so it sort of worked. However, I've seen quite a few where the metal part pulled out of the molding, where the little wires bent, and where the whole thing got scrambled.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2016)

same problem with many thumb/stick drives


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

PVD said:


> same problem with many thumb/stick drives


I've never had one fail before. I've certainly had a few where the flash memory was starting to go crazy, but not where the physical connection had any issues.

I was really thinking that the outlets should be some sort of modular receptacle that can be replaced relatively easily. Something like the standard ones for an electric range or maybe like a standard AC receptacle. Maybe something where the cover is removed, the damaged socket pulled out, and maybe just a connecting harness reattached to the replacement part. Of course the sockets are soldered on to most consumer products, but they typically don't go through the same stresses as commercial equipment. What's the expected life of an aircraft or train receptacle? The photo shown looks like the entire module can be replaced.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 15, 2016)

Triley said:


> On the lighter side of things, and a bit off topic, I look at the variety of prongs used in difference countries, and I can't help but wonder which one hurts the most to step on!


 UK plugs. No question. Not only are they extremely painful to step on but they are also more likely than other cables to land with the prongs facing up. According to what I've read they're safer than NEMA plugs from an electrical perspective but always be sure to keep your feet away from them.



BCL said:


> I get that it was never meant for that kind of use, but it's a de facto standard now. Heck - the original standard was for 0.5A to the point where some devices might need a special dual plug cable just to access more power. I'm pretty sure that most of these high volume applications use modular plugs that can easily be replaced.


Since power delivery and plug/jack design are separate aspects of the USB specifications you could theoretically have a USB-A jack that provided 30W or more when used with converter cable to a USB-C device. That would be good enough for me.



BCL said:


> Micro USB is an abomination. Whoever declared that it would be more durable than mini USB must not have looked at it.


That was true for the original USB2 Micro-B HS but USB3 Micro-B SS jacks largely resolved the issue. USB3 Micro-B SS jacks came with a larger contact area to the PCB, additional solder connections, and more obvious orientation leading to fewer misconnects and less physical damage over time. The best portable data/power connection I've ever used is Apple's Lightning cable and USB-C is following a similar path except for the fact that it's inverted. In other words the inner connecting tab is located inside the device instead of inside the cable. Personally that seems like a less durable decision to me, but it may also be a requirement Apple imposed in order to make one or more of their connector patents available for widespread low cost use.


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Micro USB is an abomination. Whoever declared that it would be more durable than mini USB must not have looked at it.
> ...


I only have a few devices with USB3 - just portable hard drives. Once I lost the cable and didn't have a replacement, but bought a new one from an Amazon seller for about $3. That thing is a little bit odd though. It's not all that secure, which can be an issue when doing some large file transfer.

As far as Lightning goes, I have a variety of different cables including licensed versions. I've never had a connector totally fail, although once I told my kid to just pull out the cable to use a device, and the (licensed) cable got separated from the shrink-wrap type strain relief. Now I can see the internal wires and it flops a bit where the wire is exposed. I'm not sure how long it's going to last before the wire cracks from fatigue. I am thinking of using some electrical tape to shore up the cable, although it will be a bit stiff. I've also had one (a really nice Lenmar 6 ft cable when it worked) completely fail. Nothing seemed to fail mechanically on the outside, but when I plugged it in nothing happened. I have a few USB power supplies that light up when working properly, and when I plug that in the light shuts off to indicate some sort of fault condition. I don't know if maybe the internal circuit is failing or perhaps there's a short somewhere. Still - it's the only Lightning cable I've had fail in two years, when my USB micro-B cables have mostly failed within a few months.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2016)

With the rapidly evolving connector situation, since we are talking about charging only, not data transfer, maybe you just go with a duplex receptacle, and the traveler brings whatever kind of tap or adapter they desire. Since you can't make everyone happy, and the minority will be pretty substantial, why even try.


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## BCL (Jul 15, 2016)

Still - USB-A power ports seem to be rather ubiquitous these days. I remember being at a United Club (thank you AGR Select+) and the tables all had pop-up 120V outlets alongside the power ports. I've seen them on the back of aircraft seats, although one time my port didn't work. Even the normal waiting areas at airports have these plugs. These have even become reasonably available in hotel rooms. I find them nice and I don't think they're terribly expensive in the long run. They might even be more reliable than the average user plugging in something to 120V mains that may malfunction and cause an issue with the power system.


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## jis (Jul 16, 2016)

The USB ports also provide an interesting vector for attacking the device while masquerading as a charging port.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 18, 2016)

Instead of an USB or an USB-C for simply providing power, I would much rather see a wireless charging pad, probably built directly into the fold-down tray. Even cars and Ikea furniture are moving toward offering a built-in wireless charge pads (Qi).


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 18, 2016)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Instead of an USB or an USB-C for simply providing power, I would much rather see a wireless charging pad, probably built directly into the fold-down tray. Even cars and Ikea furniture are moving toward offering a built-in wireless charge pads (Qi).


Wireless charging is extremely inefficient, is based on proprietary designs, has patent license issues, and suffers from a total lack of backward compatibility. No thanks.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 18, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of an USB or an USB-C for simply providing power, I would much rather see a wireless charging pad, probably built directly into the fold-down tray. Even cars and Ikea furniture are moving toward offering a built-in wireless charge pads (Qi).
> ...


Ah, the future scares you a bit. That's understandable. But don't worry, we can probably put in one of these jacks for your phone. 







Though, like USB, there is still the risk of that darn wire accidentally getting tangled around something.


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## PVD (Jul 18, 2016)

On a train, that would be fun trying to get a laptop or tablet to stay in place. Many larger devices use too much power for wireless.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2016)

PVD said:


> On a train, that would be fun trying to get a laptop or tablet to stay in place. Many larger devices use too much power for wireless.


That is just a matter of designing an induction pad with adequate capacity. Afterall induction technology is able to power entire streetcars, so it is hard to believe that there is a fundamental technical limitation inherent to the technology. A simple click-on clamp to hold the device in place would solve the problem of a a moving train that is capable of spilling an entire coffee mug on your lap fro the flimsy table in Coach too.


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## PVD (Jul 18, 2016)

The problem is less on the supply side than the receive side. Not sure how much weight it would add to the body of the device. One of the few good things about external power supplies on laptops amd tablets, they keep the weight and thickness of the device down. Of course, we have made huge strides in the power density of battedries, that has been a big plus.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2016)

Then again many carry a snap on battery pack like Mophie which occasionally adds some weight and thickness. A similar snap on for inductive charging could be solution. Still avoid the wire mess.

As for the current solutions being proprietary for inductive chargers, that is just a matter of time. Work is already going on for creating standards in that area.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2016)

You electrical engineers and hi tech gurus are leaving us poor Luddites in the dark with this technical info!

It's a dirty job but someone has to do it! LOL


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## PVD (Jul 18, 2016)

At a high level, decisions will have to be made how much effort (and money) will be spent in future proofing vs backward compatibility. Whatever decisions are made we can be reasonably certain that lots of people will be unhappy, and whatever is done will be obsolete before it is implemented on a widespread basis. Of course, at the speed with which fleet re-equipping is taking place, we may be having an entirely different conversation 5 years from now..


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 18, 2016)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
> ...


It's possible that wireless charging is the future. It's also possible that it will always be a niche technology for lazy people with a fear of tangled cables.


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## BCL (Jul 18, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> You electrical engineers and hi tech gurus are leaving us poor Luddites in the dark with this technical info!
> 
> It's a dirty job but someone has to do it! LOL


Don't have a clue. I haven't thought about power electronics since college, although I did interview for a job related to wireless charging. At my heart I'm a ones and zeroes guy.


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## BCL (Jul 18, 2016)

PVD said:


> At a high level, decisions will have to be made how much effort (and money) will be spent in future proofing vs backward compatibility. Whatever decisions are made we can be reasonably certain that lots of people will be unhappy, and whatever is done will be obsolete before it is implemented on a widespread basis. Of course, at the speed with which fleet re-equipping is taking place, we may be having an entirely different conversation 5 years from now..


Providing 120V three-prong outlets would be reasonable future proof. However, I would think that a good way to future proof is to provide some some of modular outlet that operates off of 120V AC and can be replaced with any new standard.

It was mentioned that wireless charging just isn't standardized in any meaningful way. It's not as if there's a way to built a generic charging pad and to apply different electronics.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 3, 2016)

BCL said:


> Now that think of it, would overhead outlets make sense? My main issue with the wall outlets is that it gets awkward stringing a cable across the window seat passenger.


ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) is pretty strict about heights for receptacles, etc and that drives heights (and would make overhead difficult, plus cords dangling would be a hassle for the person in the window seat). I think there is a different set of regulations for transit, but I would suspect outlet height would need to be accessible.


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## PVD (Aug 6, 2016)

Part 38 sub F covers intercity rail, and they do have a height standard for receptacles in sleepers, but no mention of them in coaches. But consider that ADA requirements for seating provide for separate areas for wheelchair seated passengers and companion, if you put your receptacles appropriately there, and in the ADA restroom (1 of the 2) you aren't bound by that for regular seating. It isn't the same as how you would build a building.


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