# New York Pennsylvania Station



## Bill Haithcoat (Nov 27, 2009)

Just received my January 2010 TRAINS today. Pretty good article on Penn Station. Many of you will probably like it.

Says a train arrives there every 67 seconds. Eight page article.


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## GG-1 (Nov 28, 2009)

Aloha

That's a lot of trains and Passengers for a station that many don't like.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 28, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> That's a lot of trains and Passengers for a station that many don't like.


Well it's not like you have a choice in NY but I guess you can always get off in Jersey like during the Republican Convention in MSG in 2004 when they wouldnt let the trains into NYP! It is a good article, of course Im the one that always quotes Betty Davis: "What a dump!" :lol:


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 28, 2009)

Both Old and New Penn are anything but "crap".


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## Neil_M (Nov 28, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Both Old and New Penn are anything but "crap".


More opinion being passed off as fact then?

Been there twice, stinking cesspit. IMHO.


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## GG-1 (Nov 28, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Both Old and New Penn are anything but "crap".
> ...


Aloha

Neil, what would you do to improve it remembering close to 60 trains per hour per the trains article.

Eric


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 28, 2009)

Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?

I assume it included subways.


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## tp49 (Nov 28, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?
> I assume it included subways.


The majority of that would be the LIRR.

They wouldn't count the subways in that at all.


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## tp49 (Nov 28, 2009)

Another thought here as well. Old Penn Station and its destruction did have a positive effect in that it essentially angered the preservationists enough for them to mobilize and save Grand Central Terminal. Thus old Penn didn't die in vain.


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## AlanB (Nov 29, 2009)

tp49 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?
> ...


The subways don't arrive at Penn Station. They arrive at their own stations, that in turn are connected to Penn Station via passageways. So no, that train count does not include the subways.

And while the LIRR does indeed put the most trains into and out of Penn, it's probably not too much more than a simple majority. While NJT does send less trains, many of it's trains actually arrive twice, since they are sent to Sunnyside to turn around before heading back to Penn to pick up passengers headed for NJ. Throw in Amtrak, and combined they probably represent at least 40% of the arrivals, if not even a bit more.


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## AlanB (Nov 29, 2009)

tp49 said:


> Another thought here as well. Old Penn Station and its destruction did have a positive effect in that it essentially angered the preservationists enough for them to mobilize and save Grand Central Terminal. Thus old Penn didn't die in vain.


Yes it did. One of the biggest names involved in saving GCT was Jackie O. Many people credit her with actually saving the station, since she helped to lead the charge to get GCT declared a land mark and her name and status helped to push that status through.


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## Neil_M (Nov 29, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> Neil_M said:
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Not a lot, short of knock it down and start again. It is what it is.

Somewhere like Berlin Hbf manages 1800 trains a day and still manages to look fetching.


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## MrFSS (Nov 29, 2009)

We were told when we were in Cologne Germany that their station sees an arrival or departure every 33 seconds. I thought it was a beautiful station.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Nov 29, 2009)

AlanB said:


> tp49 said:
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> > Another thought here as well. Old Penn Station and its destruction did have a positive effect in that it essentially angered the preservationists enough for them to mobilize and save Grand Central Terminal. Thus old Penn didn't die in vain.
> ...


Jackie not only helped save GCT but that actually jump started a move all across the nation, as indicated,to salvage all sorts of historic buildings,bridges, etc not just railroad stations. For which we can all be thankful.


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## Shanghai (Nov 29, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> GG-1 said:
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> > Aloha
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I traveled into and out of NYP twice during the Republican Convention.

I was on both NJT & LIRR. The most difficult part of the security was when

I left the station on 7th Ave. Streets and Avenues were blocked within a 5

block area of the station.


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## jis (Nov 30, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?
> I assume it included subways.


Wouldn't it make sense to actually bother to read the article before making assumptions on what it says? 

It does not include subway counts. it does count all X trains though, and documents everything in great detail. Do read it. It is very informative, even for those railfans who think they know it all 

Additionally you get a completely authentic track diagram spanning all the way from Secaucus Junction to Harold as displayed in PSCC in the lead page picture of PSCC.


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## jis (Nov 30, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Not a lot, short of knock it down and start again. It is what it is.Somewhere like Berlin Hbf manages 1800 trains a day and still manages to look fetching.


Yes, but it has way more than 6 tracks feeding it. Doing 1800 trains with the kind of unconstrained flow that is available at Berlin Hbf is not a challenge at all. The challenge in NYP is that it is rife with conflict points and clearly has insufficient capacity in the 6 tracks that connect into it. That is what makes the traffic that is carried through NYP an amazing feat.

Finding the kind of real estate space that Berlin Hbf occupies in Manhattan could be a rather challenging venture, legally, financially and socially.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 30, 2009)

jis said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?
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I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy


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## jis (Nov 30, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy


Go to http://www.trainsmag.com and subscribe to it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks Jis


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## GG-1 (Nov 30, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> jis said:
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Aloha

If you have a Barns and Nobel, they carry Trains, but the Honolulu store usually only bring in 5 copies.


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## MrFSS (Nov 30, 2009)

GG-1 said:


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See this *link* for subscription info.


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## Neil_M (Nov 30, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy


I will buy you one in my local branch of WH Smiths, in Richmond, West London,England, UK,Europe and mail it to you!


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## Neil_M (Nov 30, 2009)

jis said:


> Neil_M said:
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> > Not a lot, short of knock it down and start again. It is what it is.Somewhere like Berlin Hbf manages 1800 trains a day and still manages to look fetching.
> ...


Oh yeah, all very fair points, but places like Berlin just prove that very busy stations don't have to be the unsavoury dump that Penn is. Just a pity that Grand Central is not the main station in New York, and Penn was the commuter bahnhof....


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 30, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy
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As much as I thank you for the offer, I wouldn't trouble somebody for the postage from the East Coast, much less from across the pond.


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## Neil_M (Nov 30, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> As much as I thank you for the offer, I wouldn't trouble somebody for the postage from the East Coast, much less from across the pond.


Just surprised that I can pick up a copy of Trains very easily and you have never had any dealings with it.


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## AlanB (Nov 30, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jis said:
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GCT still holds its own believe it or not. On average it sees 755 trains a day or an average of 31 an hour with only 4 throat tracks and no run through trains.

Coincidentally there was just a recent article on GCT entitled The Zoo That Is Grand Central, at Full Gallop.


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## nashscan (Dec 13, 2009)

To me, Penn station is beautiful. All the urban grit, the mysterious caverns and passageways, and the raw energy contained underneath low celings is awsome. I'd take it anyday over an open sterile European style station.


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## jerseyrob (Dec 27, 2009)

I love the grandeur of GCT and wish I had got to see the old NYP before it was torn down in the 60's. However, I am anxious to see what they do with NYP when it moves across the street to the old post office building. I really hope they turn the new NYP into a majestic station like GCT when it moves. It will also be interesting to see how the new rail tunnel from NJ affects traffic into/out of NYP when that is completed.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 27, 2009)

jerseyrob said:


> I love the grandeur of GCT and wish I had got to see the old NYP before it was torn down in the 60's. However, I am anxious to see what they do with NYP when it moves across the street to the old post office building. I really hope they turn the new NYP into a majestic station like GCT when it moves. It will also be interesting to see how the new rail tunnel from NJ affects traffic into/out of NYP when that is completed.


I think we all agree however being New York it will probably cost Billions to finish up the conversion, just hope they do a first rate job which sometimes happens in spite of the system being geared to cost cutting/bribes/changes to the contract etc. Mostly political influence causes this but also there are unions involved so it's a crap shot! I hope to live long enough to see it finished and functioning, I am 65! :lol:


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## jis (Dec 27, 2009)

jerseyrob said:


> I love the grandeur of GCT and wish I had got to see the old NYP before it was torn down in the 60's. However, I am anxious to see what they do with NYP when it moves across the street to the old post office building. I really hope they turn the new NYP into a majestic station like GCT when it moves. It will also be interesting to see how the new rail tunnel from NJ affects traffic into/out of NYP when that is completed.


NYP isn't moving anywhere. It will stay put where it is. A new concourse may be developed in the Post Office building across 8th Ave. There will be next to zero impact on that from the new 170 feet deep NY Penn Station Extension attached to the new tunnels. NYPSE will be two street and one avenue block horizontally and 170' vertically away from the Moynihan Concourse.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 29, 2009)

Not to mention that the new tunnels are not physically connected to Penn Station itself and thus can't be used by any kind of Amtrak through service in the event of a failure of one of the current tunnels.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 29, 2009)

Yesterday, I went to visit it the post office building, and am wondering where they plan on putting the concourse. The doors closest to Penn Station led to a working post office. Granted it was relatively small when you consider the size the building, but I can't see USPS just packing up and leaving. Also I was curious about how they plan to attach the new concourse to the current tracks. I'm guessing you would have to walk through another subterranean passage way and up a flight of stairs?

Thanks.


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## AlanB (Dec 29, 2009)

Part of the agreement sees the USPS packing up and leaving that area plus part of the area behind the windows. The USPS will retain the back half of the building or the 9th Avenue side last I knew, while the 8th Avenue side will go over to the train station.

As for how to connect to the tracks, that's easy. If the floor of the post office were to collapse tomorrow, it would land on the platforms and tracks. So all they need to do is makes some holes in the floor and install escalators. Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue. All other platforms reach under 8th Avenue and under the current post office. The platforms for tracks 9 through 14 almost reach 9th Avenue. Just to give you some perspective, when you see daylight and sky right before going into the tunnels to NJ, you're between 9th & 10th Avenues.


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## Shanghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Alan, I'm a bit confused by your above comment relative to tracks 1 to 4. Perhaps the platforms do not extend to 8th Avenue, but

the tracks must. Many of the NJT trains arrive and depart from tracks 1 to 4 and they must cross 8th Avenue and westward.

I always thought all of the Farley Post Office sat atop the tracks for Penn Station.


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## AlanB (Dec 30, 2009)

Shanghai,

I didn't say that tracks 1-4 didn't extend past 8th Avenue. I said:



AlanB said:


> Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue.


And yes, Farley sit on top of all tracks that serve Penn. In fact Farely even sits on top of the small yard that NJT uses for feed some of the tracks at Penn that you see to your left as you leave Penn and head for the tunnels.


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## jis (Dec 30, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Shanghai,
> I didn't say that tracks 1-4 didn't extend past 8th Avenue. I said:
> 
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The A Yard, the C Yard and the Diagonal Platform all sit under Farley. There has been some talk of converting the Diagonal platform into a usable passenger platform too. The ladder tracks to tracks 1-4 pass under Farley. According to plans, Farley will be connected to tracks 1-4 using pedestrian walkways suspended above the ladder tracks and the yards too.


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## AlanB (Dec 30, 2009)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
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Of course with NJT now out of the picture for Farley, there is really little need to connect those 2 platforms to Farely since it's rare that Amtrak would ever use one of those dead end tracks.


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