# Effect of rising gas prices on Amtrak ridership in summer of '22



## Eric in East County (Feb 11, 2022)

Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not rising gas prices will result in an increase in Amtrak ridership during the peak summer vacation months? (Out here in East San Diego County, gas is selling for over $5 a gallon!)


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## rs9 (Feb 11, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not rising gas prices will result in an increase in Amtrak ridership during the peak summer vacation months? (Out here in East San Diego County, gas is selling for over $5 a gallon!)



My guess is people who can't afford increases will simply drive less or take shorter/closer to home vacations. I'm not sure how many people would think of Amtrak for vacation travel to start with, but I could be wrong on that. I think people consider fly or drive, and that's it.


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## cirdan (Feb 11, 2022)

I think last time there were huge hikes in gas prices, I think that was around 2008 or thereabouts, that there was a noticeable increase in Amtrak ridership and I remember talking to different people who said it was their first ever train ride.


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## west point (Feb 11, 2022)

A strict one-person opinion. Find it unlikely that the present management has the will to meet demand.


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## tgstubbs1 (Feb 11, 2022)

Consider the percentage of travelers that are fortunate enough that a train is a possible option for their trip. Will Amtrak be ready for more passengers?


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## Tlcooper93 (Feb 11, 2022)

I think given the right circumstances, it could definitely increase ridership around the NEC, assuming they have promotions and good advertising. If the new Acelas arrive at least some time soon, which is unlikely, that will help too!

I think it’s unlikely that it will have any effect anywhere else. The train, as an option of travel, doesn’t really occupy the public imagination in the rest of the country, with a few mild exceptions.

The most likely outcome of high gas prices is less driving, but not necessarily alternative travel modes.


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## me_little_me (Feb 11, 2022)

Unfortunately, my experiences when talking to 90+% of American travelers is that Amtrak is not even a thought in their minds when it comes to travel. It is either pane or car but never train. So my reply is that there will be little, if any, effect on Amtrak travel if prices go up but it might encourage some commuters to take transit instead of driving.


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## jruff001 (Feb 11, 2022)

Historically I seem to recall that a sustained, significant increase in gasoline prices has resulted in higher Amtrak ridership.

So my guess is Yes (assuming there is indeed a sustained, significant increase in gasoline prices, as assumed in the question).


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## bms (Feb 12, 2022)

I think so. A lot of times people will compare Amtrak fares to the cost of driving. If they found driving to be cheaper, it's always because they ignored every cost of driving other than gas. Now, we have crossed the point where gas alone is more than an Amtrak coach fare.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 12, 2022)

bms said:


> I think so. A lot of times people will compare Amtrak fares to the cost of driving. If they found driving to be cheaper, it's always because they ignored every cost of driving other than gas. Now, we have crossed the point where gas alone is more than an Amtrak coach fare.


True that most people only think of the cost of gas and tolls when considering the cost of a trip where the cost of car ownership per mile is much higher ($20k car driven 200k miles = 10 cents a mile just for wear and tear, add in repairs, tires, insurance ...). All of the factors that affect total cost of car use are increasing - tried to buy a new or used car recently? I think in the medium to long term this will have an effect, especially in places with a decent rail infrastructure (NEC, Chicagoland, Cslifornia).


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## MARC Rider (Feb 12, 2022)

If you're taking a 1200 mile road trip and your car gets 30 mpg, you're going to be using 40 gallons of gas. At $3.00 a gallon, that will cost $120; at $3.50 a gallon, that will cost $140; at $4.00 a gallon, it will cost $160. Compared to the cost of lodging, meals, etc. on a typical vacation trip, the extra $20 - $40 for gas is small change.

We are considering taking the train to Boston and getting our car there for our summer trip to Maine this coming summer, but that's not to save on gas, rather it's to avoid the very stressful drive through the Northeast from our home. Also, if we take the Acela, we can probably get up to the cabin in a single day, thus saving lots of $$$$ on lodging. You wouldn't believe the prices of hotels and motels in the Northeast during the summer, even in places far outside of the big cities.


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## Tlcooper93 (Feb 12, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> If you're taking a 1200 mile road trip and your car gets 30 mpg, you're going to be using 40 gallons of gas. At $3.00 a gallon, that will cost $120; at $3.50 a gallon, that will cost $140; at $4.00 a gallon, it will cost $160. Compared to the cost of lodging, meals, etc. on a typical vacation trip, the extra $20 - $40 for gas is small change.
> 
> We are considering taking the train to Boston and getting our car there for our summer trip to Maine this coming summer, but that's not to save on gas, rather it's to avoid the very stressful drive through the Northeast from our home. Also, if we take the Acela, we can probably get up to the cabin in a single day, thus saving lots of $$$$ on lodging. You wouldn't believe the prices of hotels and motels in the Northeast during the summer, even in places far outside of the big cities.


Where in Maine do you go?

I think this question depends considerably on where you are in the country.


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## Eric in East County (Feb 12, 2022)

My “take away” from the comments that have been posted so far is that:

1. There is some historical precedent for raising gas prices encouraging people (particularly those who don’t like to fly) to at least consider the train for their long-distance travel.

2. It remains to be seen if Amtrak management will take advantage of rising gas prices to aggressively promote long-distance train travel to the general public and then follow through by ensuring that the necessary equipment (in good working order and properly staffed) will be available to meet an increased demand for tickets on its long-distance trains.


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## Joe from PA (Feb 12, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not rising gas prices will result in an increase in Amtrak ridership during the peak summer vacation months? (Out here in East San Diego County, gas is selling for over $5 a gallon!)


 
Please don't confuse California with the rest of the country.


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## west point (Feb 12, 2022)

Notice how this discussion resembles that of Amtrak operating costs plus fixed allocated costs?
Most persons still do not realize the total operating costs of an auto.
1. FIXED COSTS
1. How do pay for your auto?
a. do you pay cash for the car? If you do you have to count the lost money of not being able to invest that money.
b. If you finance your car then the interest either stated or hidden comes into your equation.
c, Car tags and taxes. Taxes some places depend on age 
d. Base insurance costs
e. Meals mostly fixed as need them every day.

2. Operating costs
a. Insurance operating costs based on number of miles driven.
b. Gas, oil, tires, other liquids
c, Stay at enroute motels. Maybe yes maybe no. If the vacation time is fixed that reduces end of trip time then the enroute meals and stays are not operating costs. Otherwise they count.
d. Do you replace car on fixed time intervals (Calendar or end of warranty for example) or on mileages? Fixed time then the mileage does not count.
d. Occasional breakdowns or accidents. Cannot quantify.
e. Mental costs of driving or not. Another non quantifying different for each of us.


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## thetourman (Feb 12, 2022)

I believe it depends on how far away you are from an Amtrak station on both ends of your trip and do you need a car when you get to your destination.
We visit my wife's family every year. It is a 1,067-mile drive one way. It is about 14 hours and 15 minutes for the drive not including fuel stops. With traffic I usually make it in 16 hours although it has taken as much as 21 hours. Plus our car gets around 48 mpg highway.
If we take Amtrak it is a four-hour drive to the Amtrak station. I would want to arrive two hours early just to be safe. Then the first train is 19 hours and 30 minutes. I would have a 7-hour layover in Chicago followed by a 6 hour 30-minute train ride. Then a 30-minute drive from the Amtrak station to the cottage.
Fuel prices would have to really increase to make Amtrak a good alternative. 
I used to live in a town that had an Amtrak station. I could drive to the station in under 10 minutes. In that case depending on where I was headed, I would take the train. No fuel, no wear and tear on the car, no tolls and not dealing with traffic.


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## Asher (Feb 12, 2022)

rs9 said:


> My guess is people who can't afford increases will simply drive less or take shorter/closer to home vacations. I'm not sure how many people would think of Amtrak for vacation travel to start with, but I could be wrong on that. I think people consider fly or drive, and that's it.



I plan most of my vacation around some kind of train travel. Travel to fly home or vice versa.


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## daybeers (Feb 12, 2022)

thetourman said:


> I would want to arrive two hours early just to be safe.


Why would you need that much time?


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## Train3414 (Feb 12, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Why would you need that much time?


You can probably arrive mere minutes before an Amtrak train generally. Maybe a little bit earlier at big stations (around 20 - 30 minutes or so - some large stations do cutoff boarding a couple minutes before departure so you do have to be careful at those stations.)


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## Willbridge (Feb 13, 2022)

I've been through the gas price cycles since 1973. If they last for a month or so they start affecting transit and intercity rail and bus transportation. It's harder to spot now than it used to be, thanks to pricing. In 1974, Greyhound was running three sections on the overnight PDX<>SFO schedule that imitated the _Cascade _or the early _Coast Starlight._ Now they would just begin raising fares. Similarly, Amtrak fares may move into the top buckets for a long period of time.

In transit planning, we found that there is a time lag before behavior changes, apparently due to people not paying attention till they get their credit card bill. Local routes aren't affected as much as long, highway coach routes. On long routes, commuters tend to begin looking at extending the lifespan of their car/s because they (the cars AND the people) can see them wearing out. Advertising aimed at that group of customers can be effective if overhead costs are brought up.

There are a lot of ways of saving on gas that people will try when alternatives are poor or non-existent. On our 2008 expedition to study the _Pioneer _route stations, my companion figured out that in rural areas couples had swapped cars. The husband was driving his wife's sedan and she was running errands with his big pick-up or SUV.

As prices peak or as supplies evaporate, political voices are raised to shrill levels. Then when serious steps are being taken (domestic production, approvals of transit and rail projects, etc.) the prices level off and in the third year, more studies are demanded. A few projects proceed, but most go back to wheel-spinning.


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## peteypablo (Feb 13, 2022)

I'm living in Italy right now, where they have excellent high speed rail, with two competing companies, very good regular rail, and moderately good metro and bus service. Gasoline is about $7 per gallon. I'm sure that a larger proportion of the population uses mass transit than in the USA, but there are still a lot of cars here, and the numbers are increasing.

I did a quick "back of the envelope" calculation. Italy is about six times as densely populated as the USA. There are some geographic realities about rail service in the USA that are not obvious, but are nevertheless present.


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## Anderson (Feb 13, 2022)

Looking back to 2008, my guess is that yes, it will result in at least a bump. Now, that's coming off of a lousy 2020-21, and there's the question of how much equipment will be available (since there are _all sorts of issues _building up on the equipment side...idle cars not kept in good shape from the 2020-21 3x/weekly mess, for example). But I suspect that, especially if it seriously impacts airfares as well (and those are still squeezed due to a lack of business travel), this will drive at least _some_ ridership.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 13, 2022)

Train3414 said:


> You can probably arrive mere minutes before an Amtrak train generally. Maybe a little bit earlier at big stations (around 20 - 30 minutes or so - some large stations do cutoff boarding a couple minutes before departure so you do have to be careful at those stations.)


I have cut it so close that I've actually purchased my ticket with the app while sitting on the train.  You gotta be fast to do that in Baltimore, because almost as soon as the strain starts moving, it enters a tunnel, and then there's no cell or wifi signal for a while.


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## joelkfla (Feb 13, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Why would you need that much time?


OP said it's a 4-hour drive, so allow some time for traffic delays. 

I think most stations require baggage to be checked 30 minutes before scheduled departure, although some probably are less strict than others. 

At some stations with limited parking (like Orlando or Winter Park FL), you might arrive at the station 15 minutes before departure and find yourself without a parking space. At Kissimmee, there's plenty of parking but it's in a municipal garage across the tracks, so you need to park your car, walk to the station, wait for the agent to give you a parking permit, walk back to your car to put it on the dashboard, and walk back to the station.


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## Train3414 (Feb 13, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I have cut it so close that I've actually purchased my ticket with the app while sitting on the train.  You gotta be fast to do that in Baltimore, because almost as soon as the strain starts moving, it enters a tunnel, and then there's no cell or wifi signal for a while.


If you want to be really last minute sometimes the conductor will sell you a ticket on the train (although you will pay for the privilege and a ticket is not guaranteed.)








Purchasing and Picking-Up Amtrak Tickets Onboard


In most circumstances, you must purchase and pay for a ticket before you board a train. In limited circumstances you may be permitted to purchase and pay for your ticket onboard.




www.amtrak.com


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## mp492_5 (Feb 13, 2022)

It won’t matter, too much trouble to see what day it runs and finding a connection and what day it runs. I’ll just drive a breath naturally.


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## thetourman (Feb 14, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Why would you need that much time?


 Due to a four-hour drive on an interstate that sees a lot of slowdowns and crashes. That would pad my schedule for traffic, parking etc.


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## cirdan (Feb 15, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I have cut it so close that I've actually purchased my ticket with the app while sitting on the train.  You gotta be fast to do that in Baltimore, because almost as soon as the strain starts moving, it enters a tunnel, and then there's no cell or wifi signal for a while.



So the system allows you to buy a ticket even after the train has left the starting station of your trip?


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## cirdan (Feb 15, 2022)

jiml said:


> Someone already touched on this and it has been discussed in other AU threads - rental cars. Unless one doesn't need transportation at the destination, I'm not sure gas prices have reached the "tipping point" yet where people will automatically abandon driving in favor of Amtrak (or flying for that matter). Rental vehicles currently aren't cheap, you still have to fuel them and there are reports of shortages when picking one up. It's something to consider in addition to your fare versus having your own vehicle with known cost, reliability, etc.



This is true.

OTOH the likes of Uber are heavily undercutting the prices of taxis, and depending where you are going and how much local transportation you will need while you stay there, this may be cheaper and less hassle than a rental car.


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## jis (Feb 15, 2022)

cirdan said:


> So the system allows you to buy a ticket even after the train has left the starting station of your trip?


I have done that out of NHV. Could not get it from the web site, but the Conductor who I had asked permission of before getting on the train had hinted that I would need to call, which I did, and got a ticket as we were passing the second MNRR station after leaving NHV. Yeah! Try that today! You'll probably be in New York before you get the ticket


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## Rover (Mar 4, 2022)

jruff001 said:


> Historically I seem to recall that a sustained, significant increase in gasoline prices has resulted in higher Amtrak ridership.
> 
> So my guess is Yes (assuming there is indeed a sustained, significant increase in gasoline prices, as assumed in the question).




I filled up last month at $3.299 using regular for the Shell ("Top Tier Detergent grade) gasoline that my car manufacturer recommends. 

TOP TIER™ Gasoline Brands


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## Willbridge (Mar 5, 2022)

I've been checking on fares for routes that I'm most familiar with and in the short run -- Sunday, March 6th, tomorrow -- there's just a hint of pricing response to demand creeping up on the _Cascades_. It's harder to watch for trends on the long-distance lines due to the weird effects of less than daily service, including after effects.

But here's the line-up for the Cascades corridor from PDX to SEA:

0700 GL $31
0800 FB $25
0820 AT $36/75
1035 FB $17
1200 AT $65/85
1300 FB $17
1556 AT $65/85/186
1845 GL $34
1915 FB $17
1925 AT $36/85

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines.

Flix also has higher fares for stops at Sea-Tac and UofW. They charge the lowest fares for the Seattle stop near King Street Station.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $47 via Seattle
0950 GL $71 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/183


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## dlagrua (Mar 8, 2022)

I do not see Amtrak ridership increasing because of high gasoline prices unless the whole system is back on a 5 day schedule.


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## Tlcooper93 (Mar 8, 2022)

dlagrua said:


> I do not see Amtrak ridership increasing because of high gasoline prices unless the whole system is back on a 5 day schedule.


Yeah, I do think there is some merit to this thought. 
Unless gas becomes utterly unreasonable (above $6pg in most states), I don't think we will see huge differences.
Cars are just too necessary in the infrastructure that America has chosen to build, and a slight monetary change won't cause the majority of people to opt for a less time efficient form of travel (in most places). 

I'd love to see rail ridership up as much as anyone, but I simply don't see it happening.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 9, 2022)

There is a lot I could say about our crazy energy policies and the misguided attempt to force a conversion away from fossil fuels before our infrastructure is ready for such a change, but this has nothing to do with Amtrak so I'll drop it.

I think that as long as we have this crazy cancellation of trains and the 5 day a week LD schedules I don't see many additional people taking the train outside of maybe the NEC where there is still some semblance of a rational service pattern.


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## Barb Stout (Mar 9, 2022)

Will the increase in oil and gas prices affect how much Amtrak charges for their trips? Will it cause an increase in Amtrak prices? Is there a built-in price differential between electrified routes and those using diesel?


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## John Bredin (Mar 9, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I think that as long as we have this crazy cancellation of trains and the 5 day a week LD schedules I don't see many additional people taking the train outside of maybe the NEC where there is still some semblance of a rational service pattern.


California? Midwest?


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## rs9 (Mar 9, 2022)

Should Amtrak keep prices stable to attract ridership despite higher fuel prices? That seems like a key question here.

What has Amtrak done in the past during severe price increases?


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## tgstubbs1 (Mar 9, 2022)

rs9 said:


> Should Amtrak keep prices stable to attract ridership despite higher fuel prices? That seems like a key question here.
> 
> What has Amtrak done in the past during severe price increases?



I would guess it depends on how much fuel is part of Amtrak' s total costs. 

Not near as much as airlines fuel costs.


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## cirdan (Mar 9, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yeah, I do think there is some merit to this thought.
> Unless gas becomes utterly unreasonable (above $6pg in most states), I don't think we will see huge differences.
> Cars are just too necessary in the infrastructure that America has chosen to build, and a slight monetary change won't cause the majority of people to opt for a less time efficient form of travel (in most places).
> 
> I'd love to see rail ridership up as much as anyone, but I simply don't see it happening.



I agree.

But the original question was whether Amtrak can gain additional riders, not whether people will stop driving.

So maybe there are people who cannot reasonably switch to Amtrak, but there are probably also people who can. The question is, will higher gas prices help some of them make that switch.

I think the answer must undoubtedly be yes.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 9, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I think that as long as we have this crazy cancellation of trains and the 5 day a week LD schedules I don't see many additional people taking the train outside of maybe the NEC where there is still some semblance of a rational service pattern.


Um, NEC service has been pretty severely disrupted and curtailed, too. A lot less capacity available when the trains are only running every 2 hours instead of every hour.


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## Willbridge (Mar 9, 2022)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I would guess it depends on how much fuel is part of Amtrak' s total costs.
> 
> Not near as much as airlines fuel costs.


You hit on an important point that is often overlooked. Petroleum price increases are more important as a component of airline operating costs than railway operating costs. 
In the two 70's era oil crises, Amtrak and intercity bus lines with fixed tariffs had sell-outs and added capacity when they were able to do so. Airlines trimmed off low-productivity services.

With the development of demand-based pricing the tendency has been to just raise or lower fares. Fuel prices are capable of forcing higher air fares. That will allow surface carriers to charge more.


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## jis (Mar 10, 2022)

Moderator’s Note: A large number of posts on the general topic of what Amtrak could do to increase ridership have been moved to a new thread on that subject:






Ideas about increasing Amtrak ridership


I believe that higher gasoline prices could lead to shorter driving trips. Amtrak ridership could go up but the mentality of the American people would need to change into accepting passenger rail as alternative transportation. Most of the people that I speak with know nothing about it, and...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please limit posts in this thread to the effect of higher gas prices on Amtrak ridership, and go to the more general thread to discuss what Amtrak could do to raise ridership including how it could potentially take advantage of the opportunity presented by higher gas prices. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

This thread is now open for posting.


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## wildchicken13 (Mar 10, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not rising gas prices will result in an increase in Amtrak ridership during the peak summer vacation months? (Out here in East San Diego County, gas is selling for over $5 a gallon!)


If anything, high gas prices will simply encourage more people to buy electric vehicles. I am already starting to see more electric vehicles on the road, even before the whole oil debacle. Not just Tesla, either. Ford, GMC, Chevy, Nissan, etc. all have EV lines.

Put another way, I don't ride Amtrak because gas is expensive, I ride Amtrak because I don't have a car.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 10, 2022)

wildchicken13 said:


> Put another way, I don't ride Amtrak because gas is expensive, I ride Amtrak because I don't have a car.



I agree. I don't ride Amtrak because gas is expensive, I ride Amtrak because I hate driving on I-95, especially though the Philly, New York, and Boston metro areas.

Consider this:

The average car is driven 15,000 miles a year. At 30 mpg, that's 500 gallons of gasoline one needs to buy.

At $2.00 a gallon, that's a total gasoline cost for the year of $1,000
At $3.00 a gallon, a total gasoline cost of $1,500
At $4.00 a gallon, total gasoline cost is $2,000

As a note, my auto insurance premiums are about $2,000 a year for each of my cars.
Also note that the IRS allows a standard mileage rate that people can use to estimate the operating expenses of their automobiles used for business. This is 58.5 cents per mile. At 15,000 miles per year, that would mean that the total expenses (including gas) of operating a car would be $8,775. This is above and beyond the purchase price, interest on the car loan and depreciation losses.

I'm sure that there are many people for whom a couple hundred dollar per year increase in fuel costs could prevent them from driving, but I think that it won't have much of an effect on most drivers, except for increase in complaining. First, there aren't many alternatives, and also, if there are alternatives, the alternatives are also getting more expensive. As an example, I bought an Acela ticket Baltimore to Boston last December, it was $125. I bought an Acela ticket New York to Baltimore two weeks ago, and it was $250. Even a lot of Northeast Regional coach trips between Baltimore and New York exceed $100. Even at $4.00 a gallon, my 30 mpg car will only burn about 13 gallons for the 400 mile round trip, which would cost about $54. If gas went back down to $3.50, the fuel cost would be $46. By the way, the tolls, in each direction for the trip, are close to $40. Using the IRS standard mileage rate, the total cost for the 400 mile round trip is about $235, which means that a Northeast Regional ride might, indeed be cheaper than driving. But some of these operating costs, like insurance and maintenance are incurred whether you make the trip of not. 

In any event, this is a little convoluted, but I don't think the kind of gas price increases we're seeing are going to make too much of a difference in mode shift. Other factors are probably more important, like tolls and traffic levels.


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## Sidney (Mar 10, 2022)

Just booked a low bucket on the TE/SL from Bloomington to LA in October for $448 for a roomette. Never thought I would see that price again. 3 nights 7 meals(4 flex). With the price of gas this is quite a bargain.


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## Willbridge (Mar 11, 2022)

There are some hints in the reservation system out of PDX and a report here regarding CHI-MKE that the oil price rise is pushing rail travel. Or is it the fading pandemic influences?

I've been doing some scratch paper work that suggests that $5 a gallon puts a single traveler into the category once promoted on the PDX<>SEA Pool, where the out of pocket cost for gas was more than the rail coach or bus fare. The difference between now and then is that "then" they added rolling stock, and "now" they raise the fare.


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## John Bredin (Mar 11, 2022)

Amtrak will be able to add rolling stock in the medium-term as (1) more of the new cars come online in California and the Midwest, and (2) new hiring brings the maintenance and repair staff up to full force, but both processes are at their early stages of completion (the hiring hopefully faster than the CalIDOT cars depending on applicants' experience) and will take a few months to come to a full boil (hence my use of medium-term).


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## tgstubbs1 (Mar 11, 2022)

They cited AAA survey on the news reporting a majority of drivers will do something when fuel prices exceed $4.00/gal.

They didn't say what people would do but surely some of them will consider Amtrak.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 11, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> There are some hints in the reservation system out of PDX and a report here regarding CHI-MKE that the oil price rise is pushing rail travel. Or is it the fading pandemic influences?
> 
> I've been doing some scratch paper work that suggests that $5 a gallon puts a single traveler into the category once promoted on the PDX<>SEA Pool, where the out of pocket cost for gas was more than the rail coach or bus fare. The difference between now and then is that "then" they added rolling stock, and "now" they raise the fare.


looks like rail advocates are going to need to have the politicians push Amtrak into adding rolling stock and keeping fares low so that they can increase the rail market share and keep people out of their cars and out of the short haul air routes.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 11, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> I've been doing some scratch paper work that suggests that $5 a gallon puts a single traveler into the category once promoted on the PDX<>SEA Pool, where the out of pocket cost for gas was more than the rail coach or bus fare. The difference between now and then is that "then" they added rolling stock, and "now" they raise the fare.


I think this is already the case for Baltimore/Washington to New York, at least with regards to Northeast Regional coach. Of course, this route has some pretty stiff tolls on the highways (like ~$80 round trip) to add to the gas price, plus, of course, the "thrill" of having to drive the New Jersey Turnpike and the tunnels and bridges into New York itself.


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## Eric in East County (Mar 11, 2022)

When people plan their vacations, do they still budget how much they can afford to spend for gas, food, lodging, etc. while traveling to their destinations? If we were trying to budget how much it would cost us to drive from Los Angeles to Chicago and back next summer, we could not even begin to “guesstimate” how much gas will be selling for by then and what our fuel bill would be. Then too, with inflation the way it is today, it’s almost certain that the cost for food and lodging next summer will be higher than it is today, making them harder to budget for, too. Although our *Southwest Chief* tickets cost us considerably more than they did last year, at least we know what it’s costing us to get from Los Angeles to Chicago and back.


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## tgstubbs1 (Mar 12, 2022)

Sidney said:


> Just booked a low bucket on the TE/SL from Bloomington to LA in October for $448 for a roomette. Never thought I would see that price again. 3 nights 7 meals(4 flex). With the price of gas this is quite a bargain.


I wonder what your cost per mile is? Then throw in 3 nights accommodation...


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## west point (Mar 12, 2022)

A thought. Most persons will not change their driving habits. However, if just 1% decided to travel by Amtrak it would have every train sold out.


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## Willbridge (Mar 12, 2022)

west point said:


> A thought. Most persons will not change their driving habits. However, if just 1% decided to travel by Amtrak it would have every train sold out.


That's what we went through in Oregon in the '73-'74 crisis. And politicians who had been ignoring railways and buses were outraged that the system struggled so. By 1976, it was past history and we got on with two steps forward, 1½ steps back.


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## Willbridge (Mar 12, 2022)

Checking on fares for routes that I'm most familiar with and in the short run -- *Sunday, March 13th*, tomorrow -- there's just a hint of pricing response to demand creeping up on the _Cascades_. It's harder to watch for trends on the long-distance lines due to the weird effects of less than daily service.

But here's the line-up for the Cascades corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $32
0820 AT $55/75
0950 GL $30
1035 FB $17
1200 AT $65/*SO*
1300 FB $27
1656 AT $36/56/282
1915 FB $20
1925 AT $36/56
1950 GL $28

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines.

Flix also has higher fares for stops at Sea-Tac and UofW. They charge the lowest fares for the Seattle stop near King Street Station.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $62 via Seattle
0820 AT $*SO*/--/$384 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $78 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $76/--/$230


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## Tlcooper93 (Mar 15, 2022)

This certainly is pertinent to our conversation.
If prices to continue to rise, perhaps we will see an uptake in Amtrak ticket purchases, especially along the NEC. 

Now whether Amtrak has the ability to capitalize on that and return to full service is another question entirely.


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## irv818 (Mar 15, 2022)

Was just planning a trip to upstate NY to visit family.
Amtrak has a station in their town, but no train at present.
So train is out of the question for now.

If there _were_ a train, it would require an overnight in NYC. Hotels are expensive.

Gas at ~$5.00 / gallon would be less than half the price of two train seats, and with two people driving, it would take less time and the overnight could be done in some place less expensive than NYC.

Figuring in wear and tear on a car for a trip you make once a year is a waste of time. Owning and driving a car here is not optional. There's no train, no bus, no taxi, no Uber within 60 miles. I'm paying for the car even when it sits in the driveway, so might as well save money and use that vehicle. A couple extra thousand miles isn't going to do much damage or affect the resale value. Not to mention that with a car, I leave when ready, instead of waiting for a train at 2 a.m. at a deserted station.

So, for people like me who can drive and who compare prices, the answer is no.


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## Tlcooper93 (Mar 15, 2022)

irv818 said:


> Was just planning a trip to upstate NY to visit family.
> Amtrak has a station in their town, but no train at present.
> So train is out of the question for now.
> 
> ...


Welcome to AU!
If you want us to comment on this, it might help to be more specific. Depending on what routes/where you are going in the country, the train is much less expensive than driving in certain cases. Obviously, yours isnt the case (taking your word for it. you didn't list any routes, stations, or cities, just overall NY State).

Given what you've just written, it seems entirely reasonable that you would drive. The way this country is built, it makes sense to drive most of the time.


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## John Bredin (Mar 15, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Welcome to AU!
> If you want us to comment on this, it might help to be more specific. Depending on what routes/where you are going in the country, the train is much less expensive than driving in certain cases. Obviously, yours isnt the case (taking your word for it. you didn't list any routes, stations, or cities, just overall NY State).


Upstate NY and "Amtrak has a station in their town, but no train at present" sounds like the Adirondack route north of Ft. Edward, NY


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## jis (Mar 15, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A gentle reminder that this thread is about effect of gas price on Amtrak ridership. Please let us not turn it into another general travel advice thread or an argument over whether car is better than train or not. Thank you for you understanding and cooperation.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2022)

Although diesel and petrol have seen little or no reduction in pricing at the consumer level crude oil futures have fallen up to 30% in the last week. This is just an FYI though and spot market pricing can shoot back up and reach new highs without notice. Makes me wonder how Amtrak buys their fuel.












Oil prices dropped 30% in a week. What gives? | CNN Business


After Russia invaded Ukraine, global oil prices experienced a dramatic spike. Just over a week ago, Brent crude leaped above $139 per barrel. Analysts warned prices could touch $185, then $200 as traders shunned Russian oil, pushing inflation even higher and adding huge strain to the global economy.




www.cnn.com


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## irv818 (Mar 16, 2022)

Gas prices will have little to no effect on ridership.

If you live where Amtrak has good, frequent service, you have already decided that you will, or won't, use the train, taking into account things like traffic hassles, parking expense, convenience to work/home, car ownership, etc. All of which are a bigger factor than gas prices.

A good advertising campaign might convince some people who are unaware of Amtrak to give it a try, but few will stick with it for long.

For the rest of us, which is most of the USA, none of those factors matter very much. Only rarely can Amtrak take us were we want to go, unless we just love trains and plan our trips around them. In that case, Amtrak was already the cheapest way to travel, and also the most expensive - depending upon the level of comfort you're willing to pay for. In neither case would an increase in gas prices make a difference in your decision.

Otherwise, when Amtrak _does_ go where we need to go, it's pretty inconvenient. 
For example, I have to drive 75 miles to the nearest station, wait for a midnight train (which may be hours late) and pay for parking while I'm gone. So I figure that for any trip less than 300 or 400 miles, I'm better off just driving. Not going to do that on a regular basis, and once or twice a year isn't going to impact Amtrak's ridership.


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## west point (Mar 16, 2022)

Naturally there is many persons who cannot take advantage of Amtrak with these high gasoline prices. However, there may be only a 1% number of persons who can take advantage of Amtrak. Then Amtrak will have more demand than it can meet. The long range effect may help Amtrak to expand.


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## Tlcooper93 (Mar 16, 2022)

west point said:


> Naturally there is many persons who cannot take advantage of Amtrak with these high gasoline prices. However, there may be only a 1% number of persons who can take advantage of Amtrak. Then Amtrak will have more demand than it can meet. The long range effect may help Amtrak to expand.


Both can be true.
I’m on an chamber orchestra tour currently, and many are opting to drive, despite every city being a destination along the NEC except for Portland ME.

I’m definitely taking the train, and spreading the word. Many of them haven’t even considered the train or that with parking and gas combined, it would be cheaper to do it.


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## daybeers (Mar 16, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Both can be true.
> I’m on an chamber orchestra tour currently, and many are opting to drive, despite every city being a destination along the NEC except for Portland ME.
> 
> I’m definitely taking the train, and spreading the word. Many of them haven’t even considered the train or that with parking and gas combined, it would be cheaper to do it.


Thank you. For those that live in an area where this is possible and you feel comfortable in your recommendation please do this. In many ways it's more comfortable and easier than other modes in certain areas, but there's not enough awareness.


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## Willbridge (Mar 17, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Checking on fares for routes that I'm most familiar with and...


In the short run -- *Sunday, March 20th*, on Wednesday night -- rather than waiting for Saturday night, with Spring Break added to high gas prices.

Here's the line-up for the Cascades corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $32
0820 AT $65/*SO*
0950 GL $24
1035 FB $37
1200 AT *SO*/*SO*
1300 FB $52
1556 AT *SO*/$85/$216
1915 FB $22
1925 AT $55/$85
1950 GL $25

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.

Flix also has higher fares for stops at Sea-Tac and UofW. They usually charge the lowest fares for the Seattle stop near King Street Station.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $52 via Seattle
0820 AT $192/*SO*/$339 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $65 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT *SO*/--/$274

Note that some of these fluctuated while I was gathering them.
Also note that the bus demand ramps up later than rail. Experienced rail travelers learn (the hard way) that Amtrak may sell out. In the pre-Amtrak years, extra coaches were added for these peaks, because fares remained fixed.


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## tgstubbs1 (Mar 17, 2022)

I saw yesterday that gas prices had dropped $0.04 yesterday. Maybe that trend will continue.

If food prices continue up Amtrak might have to reduce food quality. Who knows how that will affect ridership?


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## Amtrak709 (Mar 17, 2022)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I saw yesterday that gas prices had dropped $0.04 yesterday. Maybe that trend will continue.
> 
> If food prices continue up Amtrak might have to reduce food quality. Who knows how that will affect ridership?


With respect, I hope the food quality will be not reduced below what it is now. Since I started riding trains in the 1960's, food service seems to be at an all time low. I admit my bias is due to the fact I am travelling these days on the Silvers and the Crescent and the "flex" dining that comes with that travel.

It seems, in my opinion, since the Arab oil embargo of 1973 and subsequent second oil shock in 1979 and all the many, many, many subsequent gas and oil "shocks" since then, gas prices will likely NOT alter the protocol of the driving population. I lived in California in 1973. Gas price on the day before the embargo was about $.35/gallon. Today's price: ????. None of these "shocks" seem to have a significant result. Again, my opinion.


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## Willbridge (Mar 18, 2022)

AMTRAK709 said:


> With respect, I hope the food quality will be not reduced below what it is now. Since I started riding trains in the 1960's, food service seems to be at an all time low. I admit my bias is due to the fact I am travelling these days on the Silvers and the Crescent and the "flex" dining that comes with that travel.
> 
> It seems, in my opinion, since the Arab oil embargo of 1973 and subsequent second oil shock in 1979 and all the many, many, many subsequent gas and oil "shocks" since then, gas prices will likely NOT alter the protocol of the driving population. I lived in California in 1973. Gas price on the day before the embargo was about $.35/gallon. Today's price: ????. None of these "shocks" seem to have a significant result. Again, my opinion.


Having been in on the action since the 1972-75 Energy Crisis, as I described in earlier messages, there is a cycle. When prices reach the level where behavior, government policies, private alternatives, etc. begin to change, then the oil prices back off. Like the tide going out, a few new energy saving measures remain on the beach, the rest are washed out to sea. For example, the _San Joaquins _and Portland LRT and the _Cascades_ are all descendants of the shock in '72-'75.

In 1974, Oregon state employees chartered buses for the PDX<>SLM commute. When I drafted the idea in 1973 it was filed because everyone knew that people would keep driving. When gas was short, interest developed, and when gas prices were allowed to rise, the operation peaked at three buses. When gas prices eased off and federal subsidies for vanpools were introduced, the chartered buses faded away. Noted passengers included the Deputy Attorney General and the Chief Justice of the Oregon Supreme Court. The Attorney General rode for a while when his license was suspended.


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## cirdan (Mar 18, 2022)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I saw yesterday that gas prices had dropped $0.04 yesterday. Maybe that trend will continue.
> 
> If food prices continue up Amtrak might have to reduce food quality. Who knows how that will affect ridership?



I for one wouldn't object to paying more for better food.

Price isn't everything.

Anyway, when you're somewhere like on a train, the raw cost of ingredients is probably tiny compared to the incremental costs caused by staffing, logistics, handling, provision of on-train cooling, storage, other facilities etc etc.

So even if the cost of raw ingredients doubled, I don't think that would make the food price rise by more than a dollar or so, all other things remaining equal.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 18, 2022)

cirdan said:


> I for one wouldn't object to paying more for better food.
> 
> Price isn't everything.
> 
> ...


That's true for all forms of commercial food service. The attitude that you're paying for the food when you go out to eat is one reason why restaurant food portions are so large and why obesity is common.


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## Willbridge (Mar 20, 2022)

Here are the end of the day departures PDX>SEA for today, Sunday, March 20th. As noted previously, trains were filling up by Wednesday, except for the last trip. The first column of fares shows offerings as of Wednesday, the second column shows what was available about 1730.

1915 FB $22 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *SO* 
1925 AT $55/$85 >>>>>>>>>>>> *SO/SO*
1950 GL $25 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $32

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.

Greyhound has the most sophisticated ticket pricing. It takes a sudden surge to sell out their buses. Predictable demand just results in higher and higher prices.

In regard to the question posed for this thread: 
*Will rising gas prices result in an increase in Amtrak ridership next summer?*

The answer is "maybe" -- gas prices right now are at the level where they usually crest. That is the level where people start looking for alternatives. From the routes that I'm following, ridership already is up. If this summer prices increase further, then the answer turns to "yes". However, the increase can't be huge because of the equipment situation.


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## Willbridge (Mar 24, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> In the short run -- *Sunday, March 20th*, on Wednesday night -- rather than waiting for Saturday night, with Spring Break added to high gas prices.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the Cascades corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...



In the short run -- *Sunday, March 27th*, on Wednesday night -- rather than waiting for Saturday night, with Spring Break added to high gas prices.

Here's the line-up for the Cascades corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $42
0820 AT $65/$85
0950 GL $33
1035 FB $32
1200 AT *SO*/*SO*
1300 FB $42
1556 AT *SO*/$85/$153
1915 FB $25
1925 AT $36/$85
1950 GL $31

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.

Flix also has higher fares for stops at Sea-Tac and U of W. They usually charge the lowest fares for the Seattle stop near King Street Station.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $82 via Seattle
0820 AT $192/$161/$359 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $62 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $76/--/$183


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## Willbridge (Mar 25, 2022)

Thursday night, 24 Mar 22

Here's what Amtrak is offering for Sunday, March 27th SEA>PDX. It's hard to tell how gas prices are affecting ridership when even premium fares can't prevent sell-outs capping ridership counts.


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## Eric in East County (Mar 25, 2022)

We’re now close enough to Memorial Day and the start of the summer vacation season for people to start making their travel plans, including making advance reservations on Amtrak trains. Is there any way for us to learn if Amtrak long distance trains scheduled for next summer are already starting to sell out? If so, will Amtrak add more coaches and sleepers to its long-distance trains to bring them back up to their pre-COVID lengths to meet the demand?


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## Willbridge (Mar 25, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> We’re now close enough to Memorial Day and the start of the summer vacation season for people to start making their travel plans, including making advance reservations on Amtrak trains. Is there any way for us to learn if Amtrak long distance trains scheduled for next summer are already starting to sell out? If so, will Amtrak add more coaches and sleepers to its long-distance trains to bring them back up to their pre-COVID lengths to meet the demand?


I think the only way to learn about sell-outs is to check in the reservations site from time to time. And, if something is sold out early, there always is a chance that someone else may cancel a booking and that space will be briefly available.

Based on experience over the years, Amtrak will not add extra cars immediately, due to:

Too small an active fleet.
Bad order cars backlogged.
Inertia.
If the high demand continues long enough, input from employees in the field, combined with input from Congress, will result in a few more cars in service. For example, there have been peak periods when an extra sleeper or an extra coach have been added to the consist of the _California Zephyr _between DEN and CHI.


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## Freddy320 (Mar 25, 2022)

I cant speak for anyone else but I hope ridership increase's. Amtrak to me isnt that bad of an option to getting somewhere or vacation purposes, and prices aren't that bad to begin with. With rising gas prices you could get a cheap ticket to your destination and rent a vehicle to run around town for how ever long and far. Gas prices nearing five dollars and up word would kill your wallet obviously stating even limiting cash for a vacation and what you may or may not do. But it all depends on the person and how they think of Amtrak.


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## Sidney (Mar 26, 2022)

Freddy320 said:


> I cant speak for anyone else but I hope ridership increase's. Amtrak to me isnt that bad of an option to getting somewhere or vacation purposes, and prices aren't that bad to begin with. With rising gas prices you could get a cheap ticket to your destination and rent a vehicle to run around town for how ever long and far. Gas prices nearing five dollars and up word would kill your wallet obviously stating even limiting cash for a vacation and what you may or may not do. But it all depends on the person and how they think of Amtrak.


We booked the Zephyr in July. It's on a Sunday,one of two days they are not currently running. Hopefully seven day service is back by then. We paid $555 from Chi to Sac. Two people. Seven meals. Two nights accomodation. With the price of gas in the stratosphere this is quite the bargain. We intend renting a car in California and head to Glacier and Yellowstone before flying back from Sac. That's where the cost factor kicks in.


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## Freddy320 (Mar 26, 2022)

Sidney said:


> We booked the Zephyr in July. It's on a Sunday,one of two days they are not currently running. Hopefully seven day service is back by then. We paid $555 from Chi to Sac. Two people. Seven meals. Two nights accomodation. With the price of gas in the stratosphere this is quite the bargain. We intend renting a car in California and head to Glacier and Yellowstone before flying back from Sac. That's where the cost factor kicks in.


that doesnt sound to bad at all, i hope you guys have an amazing trip


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## Willbridge (Mar 26, 2022)

Here's Sunday, March 27th, on Saturday afternoon -- with Spring Break added to high gas prices.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $42
0820 AT $65/$85
0950 GL $38
1035 FB $37
1200 AT SO/SO
1300 FB $37
1556 AT SO/SO/$153
1915 FB $37
1925 AT $65/SO
1950 GL $38

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO= Sold Out.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $82 via Seattle
0820 AT $192/$212/$359 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $72 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$324


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## George Harris (Mar 28, 2022)

Rising gas prices will reasonably result in more inquires, but unless and until, hopefully, they get to AT LEAST daily service on all routes and preferably two a day, it is not likely to result in much increase in ridership. Plus, how user friendly is the system to inquires as it stands right now?


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## Willbridge (Mar 29, 2022)

George Harris said:


> Rising gas prices will reasonably result in more inquires, but unless and until, hopefully, they get to AT LEAST daily service on all routes and preferably two a day, it is not likely to result in much increase in ridership. Plus, how user friendly is the system to inquires as it stands right now?


This reminds me of items that I omitted in my accounts of previous oil spikes or shortages. We learned that it takes longer to book a trip with new customers or when the main line is sold out than it does under normal demand. That is true of computers and agents. Breakdowns may result.

Another item: demand goes up the greatest on the lines that are already heaviest. This is partly due to the public's familiarity with the service on main lines. And main lines are likelier to have multiple trains and classes of service. It's one of the reasons that I'm following the _Cascades _in the present situation. There is more awareness of them than on many other routes, partly due to their continuity from the Pool line days.


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## Willbridge (Mar 30, 2022)

Here's *Sunday, April 3rd*, as it appears on Wednesday night -- with high gas prices and the tail end of Spring Break.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $32
0820 AT $36/*SO*
0950 GL $22
1005 FB $20
1200 AT $65/*SO*
1300 FB $20
1556 AT *SO*/$65/$186
1830 FB $22
1925 AT $36/$85
1950 GL $24

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $72 via Seattle
0820 AT $134/*SO*/$565 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $59 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $76/--/$183

Note that the 0820 and 1200 AT trips both have bus connections to Vancouver, BC and to Bellingham. The 0820 comes through from Eugene and the 1200 has a bus connection from Eugene.


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## MIrailfan (Mar 31, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not rising gas prices will result in an increase in Amtrak ridership during the peak summer vacation months? (Out here in East San Diego County, gas is selling for over $5 a gallon!)


I believe so.


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## Willbridge (Apr 7, 2022)

Here's *Sunday, April 10th*, as it appears on Wednesday night -- with high gas prices.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $22
0820 AT $36/*SO*
0950 GL $23
1005 FB $22
1150 FB $22
1200 AT $65/*SO*
1300 FB $22
1556 AT *SO*/$85/$216
1830 FB $22
1925 AT $36/*SO*
1950 GL $24

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $72 via Seattle
0820 AT $112/*SO*/$310 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $62 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 7, 2022)

Lately gas prices have moderated some, even falling below $4 around here. Perhaps due to the SPR release?
Not sure how long this will last as the effects of the embargoing of Russian oil begin to kick in.


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## Willbridge (Apr 8, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Lately gas prices have moderated some, even falling below $4 around here. Perhaps due to the SPR release?
> Not sure how long this will last as the effects of the embargoing of Russian oil begin to kick in.


So far everyone is following the script. As prices rise, they hit a plateau at which energy saving decisions start kicking in. In the meantime, politicians profess outrage and energy company officials plead for an end to regulations. Now we're at that plateau. In this case, we can switch metaphors to waiting for the other (Russian) boot to drop.

In regard to energy saving, it's fascinating to learn the ways people can save when money and/or time is involved. On our expedition from Nob Hill to Eastridge Mall in the 1974 Energy Crisis on a Saturday we found that the Santa Clara County transit system had to double-head the last bus run from the mall because of all the kids whose parents told them to take the bus instead of getting a ride. In our 2008 expedition to determine the condition of stations on the _Pioneer _route my girlfriend discovered that quilt shops all along the way were thriving. Either people were turning down the heat or they were staying home and finishing that sewing project that had been gathering dust.

One difference in this cycle is that Amtrak is the least prepared to pick up business that it's ever been since the frozen steam heat cars were retired. As the regular checks on fares and bookings reported here show, a typical price cycle is enough to result in sold out trains.


Quilt shop as seen from the former Mountain Home station site. Amtrak says
"Stay home and quilt."


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## Willbridge (Apr 10, 2022)

Here's the Sunday evening clean-up trips PDX>SEA. I'm not sure what is happening, but it looks as though Flixbus switched from demand-based pricing to adding trips and keeping the lowest fares in the market. They have been doing a lot of on-line advertising.

The first price is as of Wednesday night for this Sunday. The price to the right is as of tonight.

1830 FB $22 >>>>>>>>>>>>> $22 (bus shown "mostly full" north of Olympia)
1925 AT $36/*SO*>>>>>>>>>>> $65 / $85 one left (train shown 90% full at 1909 PDT)
1950 GL $24 >>>>>>>>>>>>> $34


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## jebr (Apr 11, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Here's the Sunday evening clean-up trips PDX>SEA. I'm not sure what is happening, but it looks as though Flixbus switched from demand-based pricing to adding trips and keeping the lowest fares in the market. They have been doing a lot of on-line advertising.



I find it interesting that Flixbus is pushing so hard to keep fares at that $22 mark instead of letting it go up based on demand. Given that they own Greyhound, any "competition" there would wind up in their pockets either way.


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## daybeers (Apr 11, 2022)

jebr said:


> I find it interesting that Flixbus is pushing so hard to keep fares at that $22 mark instead of letting it go up based on demand. Given that they own Greyhound, any "competition" there would wind up in their pockets either way.


It's the opposite approach of Amtrak, who's now blocking some Saver fares on Fridays & Sundays on the NEC even if the train is 0% full!


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## jebr (Apr 11, 2022)

daybeers said:


> It's the opposite approach of Amtrak, who's now blocking some Saver fares on Fridays & Sundays on the NEC even if the train is 0% full!



On the plus side, I noticed that's no longer a hard and fast rule. I was able to get a saver fare on a Friday in July on the NEC which was almost completely blacked out before.


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## daybeers (Apr 11, 2022)

jebr said:


> On the plus side, I noticed that's no longer a hard and fast rule. I was able to get a saver fare on a Friday in July on the NEC which was almost completely blacked out before.


There are two buckets in NEC saver fares so you probably got the higher one.


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## jebr (Apr 11, 2022)

daybeers said:


> There are two buckets in NEC saver fares so you probably got the higher one.



It was $26 NYP - BAL - not sure if that's the lower or higher of the two buckets but it's the lowest I've seen outside of the very-limited-time sales and such. I was a bit surprised to see it too as it seemed as though pricing had taken a big jump a couple weeks ago.


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## daybeers (Apr 11, 2022)

jebr said:


> It was $26 NYP - BAL - not sure if that's the lower or higher of the two buckets but it's the lowest I've seen outside of the very-limited-time sales and such. I was a bit surprised to see it too as it seemed as though pricing had taken a big jump a couple weeks ago.


Wow, you're correct in that's the lowest bucket for that trip. Good on you for finding it on a Friday.


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## MIrailfan (Apr 11, 2022)

Amtrak ridership is already up so is BART. B(ay Area Rapid Transit.


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## Willbridge (Apr 14, 2022)

Here's Easter *Sunday, April 17th*, as it appears on Wednesday night -- with high gas prices.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $27
0820 AT $36/*SO*
0950 GL $30
1005 FB $27
1150 FB $27
1200 AT $65/*SO*
1500 FB $27
1556 AT *SO*/$85/$186
1830 FB $27
1925 AT $55/$85
1950 GL $28

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $57 via Seattle
0820 AT $112/*SO*/$219 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $68 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. *SO *= Sold Out.

_Note: I've found that PDX>VAN excludes Train 28 from the choices offered. Same on Train 27, although I can understand omitting the westbound for schedule adherence reasons._


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## Willbridge (Apr 17, 2022)

Here's the Easter Sunday evening clean-up trips PDX>SEA. Flixbus switched from demand-based pricing on this corridor to instead adding trips and keeping the lowest fares in the market. The only exception has been when the bus is shown as "almost full".

The first price is as of last Wednesday night for this Sunday. The price to the right is as of tonight at 1630. The furthest right is as of tonight at 1715.

1830 FB $27>>>>>>>>>>>>>$27>>>>>>>>>>>>$35
1925 AT $55/$85>>>>>>>>>>$65/*SO>>>>>>>>>*$65*/SO*
1950 GL $28>>>>>>>>>>>>>$40>>>>>>>>>>>>$40

While the PDX<>SEA rate remains low, trips for PDX<>EUG are fluctuating as usual, resulting in higher prices than the PDX<>EUG Amtrak and Thruway trips. The opposite is true on PDX<>SEA.

The Flix ad campaign for PDX<>SEA is continuing. They emphasize the $14.99+$2.50 midweek rate.


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## Willbridge (Apr 21, 2022)

Here's Sunday, April 24th, as it appears on Wednesday night with high gas prices levelling off.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $20
0820 AT $36/SO
0950 GL $22
1005 FB $20
1150 FB $20
1200 AT $55/SO
1500 FB $22
1556 AT $65/$85/$249
1830 FB $29
1925 AT $36/$85
1950 GL $22

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $48 via Seattle
0820 AT $94/SO/$266 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $59 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

_Note that the GL website is again experimenting with showing Flixbus trips._


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## Willbridge (Apr 24, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Here's Sunday, April 24th, as it appears on Wednesday night with high gas prices levelling off.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...



Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA on Sunday, April 24th, as it appeared at about 1100. The left-hand figures are from last Wednesday. 

1150 FB $20 >>>>>>>>>>>> SO
1200 AT $55/SO >>>>>>>>> $65/SO
1500 FB $22 >>>>>>>>>>>> $39
1556 AT $65/$85/$249 >>>>> SO/SO/$282
1830 FB $29 >>>>>>>>>>>> SO
1925 AT $36/$85 >>>>>>>>> $55/$85
1950 GL $22 >>>>>>>>>>>> $37

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.


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## Willbridge (Apr 27, 2022)

Here's Sunday, May 1st, as it appears updated on Wednesday night with high gas prices levelling off.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $20
0820 AT $55/SO
0950 GL $23
1005 FB $20
1150 FB $20
1200 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $20
1556 AT SO/$85/$186
1830 FB $20
1925 AT $65/SO
1950 GL $25

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $42 via Seattle
0820 AT $113/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 GL $57 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

I'll skip doing this for a while as long as gas prices stay at the current range. As I've written before, gas prices tend to hit a plateau when the industry tries not to enter the range in which people start taking action. For example, a sharp increase might result in the national media noticing the vacant Amtrak board seats. In the 1972-75 shortage the governor of Oregon fired all but the two newest members of the Tri-Met board. In the 1979-80 shortage, Colorado voters replaced the appointed RTD board with an elected board, etc.

One question that this series has raised: what's with the Sold Out Business Class? Do the substitutes for the withdrawn Talgo VI trainsets have less seats? I can guess at several explanations but perhaps someone closer could shed light.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 27, 2022)

I'm wondering if for the long term, if gas prices continue to rise and more people switch to electric cars, given that EV's are great for shorter trips where you can be back home and charge the car in the garage overnight, but not so great on longer trips where you might have to sit at a charging station for an hour or more, whether this might encourage more train travel especially in the medium distance 200 - 500 mile range where trains can beat our air travel. This of course would require a much better medium distance corridor network that is lacking in many areas (Ohio I'm looking at you).


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## Rover (May 20, 2022)




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## Eric in East County (May 20, 2022)

There ARE those who would like to see us paying $10 or even $15 dollars a gallon for gas like people do in Europe. Their thinking is that higher gas prices will force people to give up their cars and use public transportation. My son, who lives and works in Leipzig, Germany doesn’t own a car and bicycles to work. When he travels within Europe, he takes the train.

While we would all like to see a passenger rail system in this country modeled after those in Europe, many of us wonder if Amtrak has the desire or the capability to handle an increase in ridership should the demand arise. This is why it will be interesting to see how rising gas prices will affect summer travel plans and if Amtrak is able to satisfy the needs of those who do decide to take the train rather than drive.


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## west point (May 20, 2022)

It appears but cannot confirm that Amtrak has not been able to increase the number of available passenger cars both revenue and non-revenue. If so, Amtrak cannot meet any additional demand! If that is the case suspect Amtrak will not work on as many non-revenue cars. there goes the BC, lounges, diners, Bags, Bag-dorms., to the out of service lines as various Periodic items meet time deadlines (OOS)


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## daybeers (May 20, 2022)

Some Regionals have been running with 9 instead of 8 cars recently.


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## John Bredin (May 21, 2022)

west point said:


> It appears but cannot confirm that Amtrak has not been able to increase the number of available passenger cars both revenue and non-revenue.


I'm not sure that's true. I've been watching various railcams since spring 2020 when I felt much more stuck at home than now. While I don't watch every day and haven't wrote down how long the consists were and are, I get the definite impression various long-distance trains that got really short during the worst of Covid have started getting longer again in the last few weeks. Although to your point about non-revenue cars, I've noticed mostly additional coaches and the occasional extra sleeper.


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## west point (May 22, 2022)

John: The single level trains here in the east off and on show sold out both coach and sleeper. Off and on probably cancellations that have not had time to refill. The Super Star does not have as many cars as B-4 Covid's that had the total of Meteor and Star total higher. LSL is getting closer, Crescent the other day only had 2 coaches although a few days later had 3. The Crescent's problem of not enough coach passengers south of ATL/BHM really points out the reason not having 4 or 5 coaches. The Cardinal= it is still short although does have bag - dorm as well as sleeper. But no 2nd full sleeper so far.

The new Amtrak board need to get down to the nitty gritty and let us know the actual roadworthy and passenger worthy cars each month. Then maybe management will have their feet held to the fire.


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## railiner (May 22, 2022)

Rover said:


>



It's high time the government (FTC?) requires gasoline retailer's to end the ancient practice of adding fractions (.9) to the price per gallon. That would also give the extra digit...


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## MARC Rider (May 22, 2022)

railiner said:


> It's high time the government (FTC?) requires gasoline retailer's to end the ancient practice of adding fractions (.9) to the price per gallon. That would also give the extra digit...


At least all taxes are included in the posted price, unlike most items being offered for sale these days.
Another thing the government (at all levels) could do is charge taxes at the wholesale level, which would make retailers pay the taxes when they purchased their supplies. This would give them a bit of a financial incentive to spend what it takes to prevent leaks from their underground storage tanks, as they'd be paying more for the gas, and so would have more to lose if product is lost through leakage.


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## Rover (May 22, 2022)

Gas prices in LA today:


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## Willbridge (May 23, 2022)

Eric in East County said:


> There ARE those who would like to see us paying $10 or even $15 dollars a gallon for gas like people do in Europe. Their thinking is that higher gas prices will force people to give up their cars and use public transportation. My son, who lives and works in Leipzig, Germany doesn’t own a car and bicycles to work. When he travels within Europe, he takes the train.
> 
> While we would all like to see a passenger rail system in this country modeled after those in Europe, many of us wonder if Amtrak has the desire or the capability to handle an increase in ridership should the demand arise. This is why it will be interesting to see how rising gas prices will affect summer travel plans and if Amtrak is able to satisfy the needs of those who do decide to take the train rather than drive.


Based on my following PDX>SEA reservations and fares (see earlier posts above) Amtrak is already not satisfying the needs of those who try to take the train rather than drive or take buses (Flix or GL in this case). I stopped posting it because it was so boring showing trains selling out.


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## Willbridge (May 23, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Here's Sunday, May 1st, as it appears updated on Wednesday night with high gas prices levelling off.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...


Here's Memorial Day, May 30th, as it appears on Sunday night May 22nd with high gas prices moving up again.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0700 FB $32
0820 AT $65/SO
0950 GL $28
1005 FB $50
1200 AT $65/SO
1556 AT SO/SO/$186
1830 FB $32
1925 AT $28/$56
1950 GL $27

And here's PDX to SPK:

0700 FB $62 via Seattle
0820 AT $192/SO/$594 chng at Seattle
0950 GL $77 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $46/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.


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## Rover (May 29, 2022)

Furnace Creek, Ca.









Why Does This Gas Station Have the Most Expensive Fuel in the U.S.?


In mid-March, Furnace Creek Fuel and Auto Service had regular fuel available for $8.75 per gallon and diesel for $9.99 per gallon.




www.newsweek.com


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 29, 2022)

Jeez! And I thought seeing sixes was bad in the Chicago area (I think I paid five something for mid-grade yesterday).

Edit: 5.25 in the NW 'burbs (County Cook)...


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## Rover (May 30, 2022)

I can remember a time, in the 70's, when I filled up my sedan.... for $8.00


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## billosborn (May 30, 2022)

I am not familiar with Amtrak's ridership in any given May, but it seems like the LD trains are filling up. Prior to a week or two ago, the Southwest Chief was only traveling with 2 coach cars, until they actually were temporarily overbooked and since then added a third car. I would imagine that Coach and Roomettes will sell out on every LD train through the summer.


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## cirdan (May 30, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I'm wondering if for the long term, if gas prices continue to rise and more people switch to electric cars, given that EV's are great for shorter trips where you can be back home and charge the car in the garage overnight, but not so great on longer trips where you might have to sit at a charging station for an hour or more, whether this might encourage more train travel especially in the medium distance 200 - 500 mile range where trains can beat our air travel. This of course would require a much better medium distance corridor network that is lacking in many areas (Ohio I'm looking at you).



Some years ago there were some discussions in Europe about auto-trains being equipped with charging points so cars can recharge while on the trip and arrive at destination with a full battery.

In the end nothing was done. But who knows, maybe that discussion will come back?


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## TheVig (May 30, 2022)

I saw $4.18 for regular here in Charlotte yesterday.

Regardless of fuel prices, we are riding the train anyway for most of our vacation travels.


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## Barb Stout (May 30, 2022)

Rover said:


> Furnace Creek, Ca.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This used to be the gas station that my sister and brother-in-law had to use when they were park rangers in Death Valley National Park. And the nearest grocery store was 80 miles away. They did try to get gas when they went grocery shopping because nothing was higher than in Death Valley, the lowest place in the US.


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## Rover (Jun 1, 2022)

_Energy prices are top of mind for most people now. From a couple of years ago when fuel prices were low, the rapid rise has helped put a crimp on the economy and raised driving costs for retail consumers. The signs of this rise are everywhere as service station operators adjust prices higher on an almost daily basis. The national average for 87 octane gasoline has reached $4.50 a gallon for the first time ever. Diesel is nearing $6.00 per gallon and raising shipping costs for everyone._









Where Are Oil Prices Headed? | OilPrice.com


Energy prices are breaking records, and as bullish catalysts continue to mount, they’re not likely to retreat anytime soon




oilprice.com


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## TinCan782 (Jun 1, 2022)

Barb Stout said:


> This used to be the gas station that my sister and brother-in-law had to use when they were park rangers in Death Valley National Park. And the nearest grocery store was 80 miles away. They did try to get gas when they went grocery shopping because nothing was higher than in Death Valley, the lowest place in the US.


Here's that same gas station in March 2021 during a week-long visit my wife and I made to the park. We are "topping off" the tank prior to heading back to L.A.
The high prices of 14 months ago seem tame now!


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## Willbridge (Jun 9, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Here's Memorial Day, May 30th, as it appears on Sunday night May 22nd with high gas prices moving up again.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...


Another look at Amtrak in the low capacity - high demand era. This for Sunday, June 12th, as of Thursday evening, June 9th.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $50
0820 AT SO/SO
0950 GL $27
1005 FB $50
1200 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $50
1556 AT SO/SO/$216
1830 FB $28
1925 AT $65/$85
1950 GL $26

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $82 via Seattle
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 GL $64 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$274

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.


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## Rover (Jun 14, 2022)

Northern CA gas station manager fired after 69 cents-a-gallon mistake


The manager says he's worried about getting sued by the station owners, so his family has started a GoFundMe to help re-pay the lost revenue.




abc30.com





RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. -- The manager who misplaced a decimal point at a Northern California gas station pricing premium gas for just 69 cents a gallon has now been fired.

The manager at the Shell gas station in Rancho Cordova, Calif., accidentally moved the decimal point to the wrong spot.

Hundreds of drivers ended up getting the cheap gas for several hours before the mistake was discovered costing the gas station $16,000.


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## Willbridge (Jun 18, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Another look at Amtrak in the low capacity - high demand era. This for Sunday, June 12th, as of Thursday evening, June 9th.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...


Another look at Amtrak in the low capacity - high demand era. This for Sunday, June 19th, as of Saturday evening, June 18th.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB $28
0820 AT SO/SO
0950 GL $38
1005 FB $42
1200 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $50
1556 AT SO/SO/$249
1830 FB $32
1925 AT $65/$85
1950 GL $37

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $52 via Seattle
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 GL $89 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $76/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

In following this it makes one wonder what rail ridership would be like if there was more capacity.


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## Willbridge (Jun 26, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Another look at Amtrak in the low capacity - high demand era. This for Sunday, June 19th, as of Saturday evening, June 18th.
> 
> Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:
> 
> ...


Another look at Amtrak in the low capacity - high demand era. This for Sunday, June 26th, as of Saturday evening, June 25th.

Here's the line-up for the _Cascades _corridor from PDX to SEA:

0800 FB SO
0820 AT SO/SO
0950 GL $38
1005 FB $52
1200 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $52
1556 AT SO/SO/$473
1830 FB $52
1925 AT SO/SO
1950 GL $37

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB SO via Seattle (Or wait for $50 on Monday.)
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle (Or wait for $192 on Monday.)
0950 GL SO chng at Stanfield (Or wait for $77 on Monday.)
1645 AT $127/--/$719 (Or wait for $58 on Monday.)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

The open Flixbus trips all showed "Almost full". Amtrak Train 28 showed "90%" occupancy PDX>SPK. Amtrak northbound to Seattle from Portland is the highest occupancy that I've seen in the reservation era. The previous unreserved trains permitted standees and extra cars were usually available.


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## zetharion (Jun 26, 2022)

So much potential revenue being missed out on.


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## west point (Jun 26, 2022)

When will enough Horizon cars be freeded up to ship some to the PNW? Would expect a miniumof 3 will be needed to add to a RT .


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## Willbridge (Aug 18, 2022)

Here's a look at PDX>SEA and PDX>SPK with the easing of gas prices, and before we get to the Labor Day weekend. This for Sunday, August 21, 2022.

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:

0800 FB $44
0820 AT SO/SO
0950 GL $27
1005 FB $44
1200 AT SO/SO
1230 FB $31
1500 FB $37
1556 AT SO/SO/$153
1830 FB $37
1925 AT $35/$75
1950 GL $27

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $61 via Seattle 
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 GL $69 chng at Stanfield
1645 AT $58/--/$183

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.


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## Willbridge (Sep 28, 2022)

Here's a look at PDX>SEA and PDX>SPK with the easing of gas prices, and now after the Labor Day weekend and the return to schools. This for Sunday, August 21, 2022 and then for Sunday, October 2, 2022..

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:

0800 FB $44>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$34
0820 AT SO/SO>>>>>>>>>>>>SO/SO
0950 GL $27>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$26
1005 FB $44>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$39
1200 AT SO/SO>>>>>>>>>>>>SO/SO
1230 FB $31>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$39
1500 FB $37>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$49
1556 AT SO/SO/$153>>>>>>>>SO/SO/$267
1830 FB $37>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$49
1925 AT $35/$75>>>>>>>>>>>$66/SO
1950 GL $27>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$27

And here's PDX to SPK:

0800 FB $61 via Seattle>>>>>>>>>$52
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle>>SO/SO/SO
0950 GL $69 chng at Stanfield>>>>>$72
1645 AT $58/--/$183>>>>>>>>>>>$58/--/$690

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

Note: SEA<>VAC reservations for bus and rail show a stampede across the "reopened" border. However, there is no through PDX<>VAC train as of yet. The 0820, 1200, and 1556 train departures from PDX enjoy bus connections in SEA to VAC.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 29, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Here's a look at PDX>SEA and PDX>SPK with the easing of gas prices, and now after the Labor Day weekend and the return to schools. This for Sunday, August 21, 2022 and then for Sunday, October 2, 2022..
> 
> Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:
> 
> ...


Those Amtrak prices are starting to resemble the NEC Fares! Supply can't keep up with demand!


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## Willbridge (Oct 13, 2022)

Here's a look at PDX>SEA and PDX>SPK as our frenemies adjust oil prices, and now with seasonal promotions coming into play, despite the already high demand and capacity limits. This for Sunday, August 21, 2022, and then for Sunday, October 2, 2022, and now for Sunday, October 16.

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:

0800 FB $44>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$34>>>>>>>>>>>$54
0820 AT SO/SO>>>>>>>>>>>>SO/SO>>>>>>>>>SO/SO
0950 GL $27>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$26>>>>>>>>>>>$35
1005 FB $44>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$39>>>>>>>>>>>$44
1200 AT SO/SO>>>>>>>>>>>>SO/SO>>>>>>>>>SO/SO
1230 FB $31>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$39>>>>>>>>>>>$49
1500 FB $37>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$49>>>>>>>>>>>$44
1556 AT SO/SO/$153>>>>>>>>SO/SO/$267>>>>>>SO/SO/$293
1830 FB $37>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$49>>>>>>>>>>>$54
1925 AT $35/$75>>>>>>>>>>>$66/SO>>>>>>>>>SO/SO
1950 GL $27>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$27>>>>>>>>>>>$37

And here's PDX to SPK:
0800 FB $61 via Seattle>>>>>>>>>$52>>>>>>>>>$97
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle>>SO/SO/SO>>>>SO/SO/SO
0950 GL $69 chng at Stanfield>>>>>$72>>>>>>>>>$76
1645 AT $58/--/$183>>>>>>>>>>>$58/--/$690>>>$58/--/$293

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper, FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded, GL = Greyhound Lines. SO = Sold Out.

Note: There is no through PDX<>VAC train as of yet. The 0820, 1200, and 1556 train departures from PDX enjoy bus connections in SEA to VAC.

An on-line promotion led to this site:






Amtrak Cascades


Amtrak Cascades runs from Seattle to Eugene.




amtrakoregon.com


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