# In the golden age of rail travel...



## northnorthwest (Jul 23, 2013)

Thinking about a potential future trip I looked up what it would take to get from Birmingham, AL to Kansas City, MO. This officially requires that you first go to DC, then take another train to Chicago, and finally down on a third train to KC. Obviously this is a really backwards way of getting there. Even if you first went to NOL on your own it would be up to Chicago and then down or else transferring by bus.

Anyway...the point is this kind of trip is not practical because of the limited routes we have today. I was just wondering what this trip would have looked like at its best. What is the fastest this trip ever took (pre-amtrak) and what route was possible? Maybe in the 1930s-1940s or so? I'm sure several of you know...

I just wish we had more connections between cities...


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Jul 23, 2013)

August 1966 is the best I can do, as it is the oldest complete national guide I have. Anyway here goes, option one, board St. Louis-San Francisco Railway train 102 "The Southland" from Birmingham at 10:30 PM, which operates directly to Kansas City arriving at 7:30 PM the next day. This train operated with coaches and cafe lounge car. Trip duration 19 hours.

You can also board Louisville and Nashville train 5 "The Humming Bird" at 6:55 AM and arrive in New Orleans at 4:55 PM the same day. Lay over in New Orleans for roughly 5 hours and then board Kansas City Southern train 3 "The Southern Belle" at 10:00 PM arriving in Kansas City at 7:30 PM the following evening. Trip Duration 34 hours

Yet another option, board Southern Railway train 41 "The Pelican" at 9:00 PM headed for New Orleans, arriving at 6:05 AM then board Kansas City Southern unnamed train 10 at 9:45 AM arriving in Kansas City at 7:30 AM the next day. Train 10 carries sleepers. Duration 33 hours.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 23, 2013)

I am not sure off hand when it quit operating but the best bet historically was the Kansas City Florida Special, leave Birmingham about noon and arrive KC the next morning about 7,30 It had through sleepers and coaches and various types of dining and lounge service. It originated in Jacksonville, sometimes with a through sleeper from Miami Interestingly, it took the same route as today's Crescent from Atlanta to Birmingham

There was also the L&N Pan American from Birmingham to New Orleans

And the Southern RR Southerner (related to today's Crescent) from Birmingham to New Orleans

You could also go to KC via St.Louis by the Humming Bird.

Also three different routes via Chicago, that is , the City of Miami, Seminole (same route as City of Miami), South Wind and yet another wing of the Humming Bird

Among the connections out of Chicago would be the trains of the highly regarded Santa Fe.

I have arthritis and thus cannot type everything out in as much detail as I would like


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 23, 2013)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> I am not sure off hand when it quit operating but the best bet historically was the Kansas City Florida Special, leave Birmingham about noon and arrive KC the next morning about 7,30 It had through sleepers and coaches and various types of dining and lounge service. It originated in Jacksonville, sometimes with a through sleeper from Miami Interestingly, it took the same route as today's Crescent from Atlanta to Birmingham
> There was also the L&N Pan American from Birmingham to New Orleans
> 
> And the Southern RR Southerner (related to today's Crescent) from Birmingham to New Orleans
> ...


Besides the Kansas City Florida Florida Special, the Frisco also operated the Sunnyland between Birmingham and Kansas City. This was a slower train that carried alot of mail. It operated on a overnight schedule from Birmingham and Memphis and day schedule through the Ozarks. At one time, the Sunnyland had a Memphis-St Louis section and a Memphis -Pensacola section.


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## caravanman (Jul 23, 2013)

Hi,

Going a little bit off topic, I am just wondering if most of those rail lines still exist as freight only routes, or have the majority of tracks been torn up? Here in the UK, most lines were physicaly dismantled once passenger use finished.

Do passenger lines in the USA have any different regulations to freight lines, or can a passenger train be routed over any existing freight line today, with the permission of the line owners, in emergency, for example?

Ed


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## Ispolkom (Jul 23, 2013)

caravanman said:


> Hi,Going a little bit off topic, I am just wondering if most of those rail lines still exist as freight only routes, or have the majority of tracks been torn up? Here in the UK, most lines were physicaly dismantled once passenger use finished.
> 
> Do passenger lines in the USA have any different regulations to freight lines, or can a passenger train be routed over any existing freight line today, with the permission of the line owners, in emergency, for example?
> 
> Ed


Lots of track has been pulled up, and lots of track is no longer maintained for high or even moderate speed travel.

Nevertheless, Amtrak trains can be diverted over freight track. It's a hassle, though, because it requires not just railroad permission but also an additional pilot crew, since the Amtrak engineer and conductor don't know the detour route. Examples of this are 1) the use of the Surrey Cutoff by the Empire Builder when the Red River floods, and 2) my recent junket up the Feather River Canyon and the BNSF Inside Gateway when the Coast Starlight's regular route was blocked by a derailment. The latter trip ended up 16-17 hours late, not just because of slow, dark track, but also because of difficulties in wrangling crews.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2013)

caravanman said:


> ..., or have the majority of tracks been torn up? Here in the UK, most lines were physicaly dismantled once passenger use finished.


A lot of the unused tracks are removed and converted into walking trails, as part of a national "Rails to Trails" movement.


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## guest in the west (Jul 23, 2013)

My oldest rail timetable books go back to 1926. These services were all on the Frisco (St. Louis-San Francisco RR) line.

In 1926:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 6m, arriving Birmingham 5:20 p.m. the next day.

It left Birmingham at 12:30 p.m., arriving KC 9:15 a.m. the next day.

The Sunnyland left KC at 9 a.m., arriving Birmingham 5:30 a.m. next day.

It left Bir at 11:30 p.m., arriving 8:25 p.m. the next day.

In 1940:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 7 p.m., arriving Bir at 1:30 p.m. next day.

It left Bir at 12:15 p.m., arriving KC at 7:10 a.m, the next day.

The Sunnyland left KC at 8:25 a.m, arriving Bir at 7 a.m., next day.

It left Bir at 10:50 a.m, arriving KC at 8:30 a.m. next day.

In 1945:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 5:20 p.m, arriving Bir at 2:25 p.m next day.

It left Bir at 1:05 p.m., arriving KC at 9:55 a.m.

The Sunnyland only operated as far north as Memphis.

In 1950:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 8:20 p.m., arriving Bir at 4:20 p.m. next day.

It left Bir at 11:50 a.m., arriving KC at 8 a.m., next day.

The Sunnyland only operated as far north as Memphis.

In 1955:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 11:25p.m., arriving Bir at 4:25 p.m. next day.

It left Bir at 12:05 p.m., arriving KC at 7:30 a.m. next day.

The Sunnyland only operated as far north as Memphis.

In 1960:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 11:15 P.M., arriving Bir at 4:25 p.m. next day.

It left Bir at 12:05 p.m, arriving KC at 7:20 a.m. the next day.

The Sunnyland ran again to KC, leaving KC at 8:05 a.m, arriving Bir at 6:45 a.m., next day.

It left Bir at 9:30 p.m, arriving KC at 8:45 p.m the next day.

In 1965:

The KC Florida Special left KC at 11:15 p.m., arriving Bir at 4:25 p.m next day.

It left Bir at 12:05 p.m., arriving KC at 7:10 a.m, the next day.

The Sunnyland left KC at 8:40 a.m., arriving Bir at 6:45 a.m next day.

It left Bir at 9:45 p.m, arriving KC at 8:25 p.m. next day.

The KC Florida Special carried sleepers until sometime between 1960 and 1965, when they were dropped as service levels declined. The Sunnyland never carried sleepers. (at least after 1926).

The last Frisco (St. Louis-St. Francisco) passenger service ended after 1967.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 23, 2013)

caravanman said:


> Hi,Going a little bit off topic, I am just wondering if most of those rail lines still exist as freight only routes, or have the majority of tracks been torn up? Here in the UK, most lines were physicaly dismantled once passenger use finished.
> 
> Do passenger lines in the USA have any different regulations to freight lines, or can a passenger train be routed over any existing freight line today, with the permission of the line owners, in emergency, for example?
> 
> Ed


In the east and midwest, where there were a lot of duplicate routes, many of those have been torn up, but even there there are many freight only mainlines.

However, with that said, in the US, freight is far and away the main business of railroads and it really always has been, even back in the heyday of passenger service. And the railroads by and large have never particularly liked passenger business, freight was and is much more lucrative. In fact, back in the heyday of railroads, James J. Hill, founder of the Great Northern, had this to say about passenger trains "...passenger trains are like a male teat, neither useful or ornamental" And that was when rail passenger service was about the only form of intercity transportation and had like 90% of the market.

The majority of track in the US has not seen passenger service in years (like since April 30, 1971, the last day before Amtrak took over most intercity passenger service, or before), and that includes super-busy mainlines like the Union Pacific "Overland Route" main through Nebraska, Wyoming and Utah(the original Transcontinenal Railroad of "Golden Spike" fame). Some of that is triple tracked now in Nebraska, which it wasn't when it still saw passenger trains. Another is the former Santa Fe "Transcon" through Amarillo. Those are just two of many, many, many examples.

Outside the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak mostly runs over the privately owned freight railroads by contractual agreement, Amtrak with a few exceptions does not have its own lines. The freight railroads do agree to detours in case of derailment, or maintenance, but Amtrak often bustitutes instead of detouring, too. The only place revenue passenger trains cannot go by regulation is FRA "Excepted Track" which doesn't conform to even the lowest of FRA standards. Other than that it is by arrangement and agreement with the freight railroads, whose attitutes toward Amtrak generally range from resignation to outright hostility, but nearly always includes opposition to new Amtrak routes.


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## George Harris (Jul 23, 2013)

The Sunnyland carried a Memphis - Birmingham sleeper until sometime in the mid 1950's. The KC-Florida Special carried sleepers and a diner until sometime around 1964. The sleeper and coaches were streamlined cars, the sleeper a 14-4, that is 14 roomettes, 4 double bedrooms. The Diner-Lounge was a heavyweight car that had been modernized to the extent of having fluted sides added, sealed windows in the diner part, but not the kitchen, and painted to match the streamlined cars. It still rode on 6 wheel trucks. The head end cars were all heavyweights. By the early 60's it was two coaches, the diner-lounge and one sleeper. It was still through to Jacksonville until sometime around 1964 when Southern discontinued the last segment into Jacksonville. The track over which it operated B'ham to Kansas City is all now BNSF, and all still very much main line. This line was and is always heavy on freight. It was never that fast, and would not be as fast now as then because superelevation has been reduced in the curves.

There were two alternatives that no one has mentioned as yet. I would not have counted going by either Chicago or New Orleans as reasonable.

There would be two ways to do it through St. Louis. One would be the L&N's Humming Bird, which had a St. Louis section. You would go Birmingham - Nashville - Evansville, Ind. - St. Louis. Youw would leavy B'ham about 6:00 pm and arrive St. L at about 8:00 am. From there you could take either the Missouri Pacific or Wabash to Kansas City. Schedules I don't remember. About a 5 hour run, I think it was. Another way would be to take the Illinois Central's Seminole which went to Chicago via Jackson TN and Carbondale IL. You would not have to go to Chicago, as there was a connection out of Carbondale to St. Louis. There was a sleeper out of B'ham to Chicago, but I don't know about one to St. Louis, if ever, and if so when it dissapeared. This left B'ham about 7:00 and arrived St. L about 8;00 am. It was not a streamliner. Every other day there was also the City of Miami on the ICRR. It left B'ham about 4:00 am and got you into St. L at about 4:00 pm. I think this connected with an afternoon train on both MoPac and Wabash to KC which got there about 9:00 pm, enabling you to make it all in one day. The ICRR route was a very interesting stitched together routing. It was B'ham to Jasper AL on trackage rights over the Frisco, then Jasper AL to Haleyville AL on trackage rights over Southern RR, then on their own rails to just north of Corinth MS, and then on trackage rights over the GM&O until just south of Jackson TN, then back on their own tracks for the rest of the trip. The Frisco trains did not last until Amtrak, but the The City of Miami did. It was the last passenger train to run on Frisco rails, and the last passenger train to run on the pre-Alton takeover GM&O.

The L&N track between Evansville and St. Louis is partly abandoned. The rest, B'ham, Nasville, Evansville, and on to Chicgo is still there and well used. Much of the ICRR line between Haleyville and Corinth is gone. The part north of Corinth to Fulton KY is stil there, but now a secondary line, and I think with the signals removed. Therefore, what was the fastest route is no more.


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## DivMiler (Jul 23, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Other than that it is by arrangement and agreement of the freight railroads, whose attitudes toward Amtrak generally range from resignation to outright hostility, but nearly always includes opposition to new Amtrak routes.


I thought I read somewhere (maybe Amtrak Unlimited) that by law passenger rail has higher priority (over freight) on a road. Am I misremembering (or remembering incompletely)?


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## zephyr17 (Jul 23, 2013)

There is a legally mandated priority but didn't really provide a mechanism. PRIIA finally provided an enforcement mechanism. The law is still in effect, but the ability to enforce it through the STB provided by PRIIA was recently overturned, on the grounds that a "private" corporation (Amtrak) couldn't create standards for a government regulator (STB) to enforce. Had the law been written that the STB formulated the standards itself, chances are it would have been upheld as part of STB's role as regulator.

The original 1970 law creating the NRPC (DBA: Amtrak) provided for Amtrak to have the right to run passenger trains on any route that had passenger service just before the act came into effect for any railroad which joined Amtrak. Further, Amtrak could require its trains be run at the same speed as the fastest train on the route in 1971 and the railroads would be required to provide whatever infrastructure would be necessary to meet that. That is how trains such as the Desert Wind and Pioneer came into existence. That provision lapsed in 1996 when the 25 year period of the original National Railroad Passenger Act of 1970 expired. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult to start new service now, there is no longer a mandate that the railroads are required to host Amtrak trains where they do not currently run as well as why people are concerned that if a route is terminated, it can never come back because of either outright refusal or heavy monetary demands on the part of the railroads to host what would now be a "new" service.


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## guest in the west (Jul 23, 2013)

George Harris said:


> The Sunnyland carried a Memphis - Birmingham sleeper until sometime in the mid 1950's. The KC-Florida Special carried sleepers and a diner until sometime around 1964. The sleeper and coaches were streamlined cars, the sleeper a 14-4, that is 14 roomettes, 4 double bedrooms. The Diner-Lounge was a heavyweight car that had been modernized to the extent of having fluted sides added, sealed windows in the diner part, but not the kitchen, and painted to match the streamlined cars. It still rode on 6 wheel trucks. The head end cars were all heavyweights. By the early 60's it was two coaches, the diner-lounge and one sleeper. It was still through to Jacksonville until sometime around 1964 when Southern discontinued the last segment into Jacksonville. The track over which it operated B'ham to Kansas City is all now BNSF, and all still very much main line. This line was and is always heavy on freight. It was never that fast, and would not be as fast now as then because superelevation has been reduced in the curves.
> There were two alternatives that no one has mentioned as yet. I would not have counted going by either Chicago or New Orleans as reasonable.
> 
> There would be two ways to do it through St. Louis. One would be the L&N's Humming Bird, which had a St. Louis section. You would go Birmingham - Nashville - Evansville, Ind. - St. Louis. Youw would leavy B'ham about 6:00 pm and arrive St. L at about 8:00 am. From there you could take either the Missouri Pacific or Wabash to Kansas City. Schedules I don't remember. About a 5 hour run, I think it was. Another way would be to take the Illinois Central's Seminole which went to Chicago via Jackson TN and Carbondale IL. You would not have to go to Chicago, as there was a connection out of Carbondale to St. Louis. There was a sleeper out of B'ham to Chicago, but I don't know about one to St. Louis, if ever, and if so when it dissapeared. This left B'ham about 7:00 and arrived St. L about 8;00 am. It was not a streamliner. Every other day there was also the City of Miami on the ICRR. It left B'ham about 4:00 am and got you into St. L at about 4:00 pm. I think this connected with an afternoon train on both MoPac and Wabash to KC which got there about 9:00 pm, enabling you to make it all in one day. The ICRR route was a very interesting stitched together routing. It was B'ham to Jasper AL on trackage rights over the Frisco, then Jasper AL to Haleyville AL on trackage rights over Southern RR, then on their own rails to just north of Corinth MS, and then on trackage rights over the GM&O until just south of Jackson TN, then back on their own tracks for the rest of the trip. The Frisco trains did not last until Amtrak, but the The City of Miami did. It was the last passenger train to run on Frisco rails, and the last passenger train to run on the pre-Alton takeover GM&O.
> ...


Yes the Sunnyland carried a least one sleeping car between Atlanta and Memphis until 1960, when it no longer appears in the consist listed in the timetables. The sleeper never ran between Memphis and Kansas City, even during the years when the Sunnyland itself extended as far west as Kansas City.

The schedule for the KC Florida Special for 1950 shows two sleepers in the consist, one between Kansas City and Jacksonville, with 10 secs, two bedrooms and one compartment, and a Kansas City-Miami sleeper with 12 roomettes, two single bedrooms and three double bedrooms. There was also a diner between Kansas City and Miami and a lounge car except for the portion between Birmingham and Atlanta. The 1950 Sunnyland consist had three sleepers, one between Memphis and Birmingham with 10 secs, one drawing room and two compartments, a sleeper between Memphis and Atlanta with 10 secs, one double bedroom and two compartments, and a Frisco Sleeping Car between Memphis and Pensacola with six secs and two double bedrooms. It also had a buffet diner between Memphis and Birmingham and a diner between Birmingham and Atlanta.

By 1955, the KC Florida special had three sleepers, a 14 roomette-4 double bedroom between Kansas City and Miami, an eight section, five double bedroom between Kansas City and Jacksonville, and a 10 sec, two double bedroom, two compartment between Kansas City and Birmingham. The Sunnyland was done to a single sleeping car between Memphis and Atlanta with 12 secs and two double bedrooms, and a dinette coach between Birmingham and Atlanta. The trains ran on Southern trackage between Birmingham and Atlanta.

By 1960, the KC Florida special ran with two sleepers, one between Kansas City and Jacksonville with 14 roomettes and four double bedrooms, and one between Kansas City and Birmingham with six sections, six roomettes and four double bedrooms. There were diners between Springfield, Missouri and Birmingham, between Jacksonville and Miami and between Jacksonville and Tampa-St. Petersburg. Also it still had a lounge car between Springfield and Birmingham, and then on the connections south from Jacksonville.

The 1960 Sunnyland once again ran between Kansas City and Birmingham only, with a scheduled connection to a Seabord Air Line coach only train between Birmingham and Atlanta. (Interesting because the KC Florida Special still used Southern Railway trackage between Birmingham south to Jacksonville.) There were no sleepers and only a chair-lounge buffer car between Kansas City and Springfield, Missouri

And by 1965, the KC Florida Special had no sleepers, just one chair car and one chair lounge buffet car on the route, which only ran between Kansas City and Birmingham, to connect there with Southern Railway trains south.

The 1965 Sunnyland ran between Kansas City and Birmingham with chair cars and a chair lounge buffet car between Kansas City and Springfield only.

The trains were history at the end of 1967.

The Illinois Central added sleepers by 1955 between St. Louis and Tampa/St. Petersburg on the Seminole but they did not run every day in the winter. By 1960 they were gone and the Seminole had only a single sleeper between Chicago and Jacksonville. However, the City of Miami had a sleeper between St. Louis and Miami at least from 1950 through 1967.


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## northnorthwest (Jul 24, 2013)

Wow! Thank you, everyone, for all this fascinating information. It's very interesting to read and imagine these older trip options. I wish I could go in a time machine and take a few of these trips.


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## caravanman (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks for the extra info from me too! Here in the UK also, the original purpose of the rail roads was the movement of freight, and I am aware of the "lack of repect" shown to Amtrak trains by the freight lines!

Ed


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## railiner (Jul 26, 2013)

Don't have an ORG handy, but what about a routing from Birmingham to Meridan to Shreveport to Kansas City via SR, IC, and KCS? How would that have worked out?


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## George Harris (Jul 26, 2013)

railiner said:


> Don't have an ORG handy, but what about a routing from Birmingham to Meridan to Shreveport to Kansas City via SR, IC, and KCS? How would that have worked out?


Yes. You would have had a fairly long wait at Shreveport in both directions. Leave Birmingham late evening on the Pelican. Change to the ICRR Meridian to Shreveport train at Meridian. Up until sometime about mid 1950's you could do this in a through sleeper. You get to Shreveport around noon, leave late evening and get to Kansas City early the next morning. You have made this into a two nights and one day trip. Reversing much the same way. get into Shreveport early morning, Leave early to mid afternoon on ICRR train to Meridian, then onto the Pelican and get into B'ham the next morning.

The following schedule was near unchanged from WW2 until passenger service ended. This one was taken from a SouRR timetable of 1942.

9:30pm Lv Birmingham

1:40am Ar Meridian

3:20am Lv Meridian

2:20pm Ar Shreveport

4:30pm Lv Shreveport

2:15am Ar Meridian

2:35am Lv Meridian

7:00am Ar Birmingham


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## chakk (Jul 26, 2013)

northnorthwest said:


> Wow! Thank you, everyone, for all this fascinating information. It's very interesting to read and imagine these older trip options. I wish I could go in a time machine and take a few of these trips.


Might be a better plan to talk to some of those older folks who rode on those trains to get their memories recorded on digital media.

I've was riding in coach before I can remember in the early 1950s, but I didn't take a long trip in a sleeper until I made my own journey cross-country in the late 1960s on the B&O's Capitol Limited, Northern Pacific's North Coast Limited, Southern Pacific's Cascade, the WP-D&RGW-CB&Q California Zephyr, and Penn Central's Broadway Limited.

I got a few trips in slumbercoaches (in some cases, outfitted with standard 10-6 sleepers) on the Crescent, and in more recent years, at least one overnight trip in a Viewliner sleeper and many overnight and two-night trips in Superliner sleepers.


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## railiner (Jul 26, 2013)

chakk said:


> northnorthwest said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! Thank you, everyone, for all this fascinating information. It's very interesting to read and imagine these older trip options. I wish I could go in a time machine and take a few of these trips.
> ...


I grew up riding no further on rails than the city subways, as we were strictly an auto road trip family. So I got a late start into railfandom, around 1967, and had a few short years before Amtrak to ride as many trains "while I could", culminating in an intense 'blitz' around the country in the last three months leading up to Amtrak....


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