# Train whistle (horn) Question



## Hanno (Feb 19, 2013)

I am currently on the Auto Train heading south. After a relatively good night of rest punctuated with the faint sound of the persistent horn blowing at crossings, a question comes to mind. Does the engineer have to manually blow the horn at each crossing or is it done automatically, perhaps by a signal buried in the tracks ahead of the crossing? Just curious.

Thanks!


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## jis (Feb 19, 2013)

The Engineer has to manually blow the horn.


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

Alerted to do so by a sign that usually looks something like this:







Also, unlike the last ship that I was on where you could hit a button to sound a preset signal, the whistle is completely manual, the engineer has to tap out the long-long-short-long themselves.


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## jis (Feb 19, 2013)

Since the length of the sequence and when to start blowing depends on the speed of the train, it is hard to automate that simply. It would do no good if you are done blowing the sequence and your still 200 yards away from the actual road that it was meant for!


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## Shortline (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't know about passenger engines, but some freight locomotives do have a horn sequencer, a peddle on the floor the engineer can put his foot on to blow the - - 0 - crossing signal. It just repeats until its released. Most engineers do not care for it though, and properly blow the crossings using the horn. It is handy though in those instances where you need a 3rd hand though!


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## benjibear (Feb 19, 2013)

Shortline said:


> I don't know about passenger engines, but some freight locomotives do have a horn sequencer, a peddle on the floor the engineer can put his foot on to blow the - - 0 - crossing signal. It just repeats until its released. Most engineers do not care for it though, and properly blow the crossings using the horn. It is handy though in those instances where you need a 3rd hand though!


when your trying to put on your makeup while texting and drinking a cup of cappuccino from Starbucks?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 19, 2013)

The "horn of choice" for most Amtrak engines is the _*Nathan K5LA *_and if you've got an extra $1,500 or so lying around and a large enough vehicle you too can have one! The guy in this video has his tuned in just right:


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## Trogdor (Feb 19, 2013)

Shortline said:


> I don't know about passenger engines, but some freight locomotives do have a horn sequencer, a peddle on the floor the engineer can put his foot on to blow the - - 0 - crossing signal. It just repeats until its released. Most engineers do not care for it though, and properly blow the crossings using the horn. It is handy though in those instances where you need a 3rd hand though!


Amtrak equipment (including cab cars) have the same feature.

A few engineers use it, but most don't.


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## the_traveler (Feb 19, 2013)

As said previously, it is hard for the sequence to be totally unto mated, due to different speeds of freight and passenger locomotives. Even with passenger locomotives, you may have a (say) 40 MPH slow order area on a 79 MPH stretch. That alone would mess up the sequence/timing.

On a grade crossing, the sequence is long-long-short-long. The final horn blast *MUST* be when the locomotive is at the grade crossing. That's why you may hear more than 4 blasts sometimes!


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## Carolyn Jane (Feb 19, 2013)

Are there different protocols for crossings without signals/gates? CJ


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## KrazyKoala (Feb 19, 2013)

That video is too funny :giggle: :giggle:


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## Shanghai (Feb 19, 2013)

With a horn on your car like the one in the video, one could scare the (blank)

out of other drivers on the road!!


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

If I had the funds, I would totally rock a train horn on my car.



Carolyn Jane said:


> Are there different protocols for crossings without signals/gates? CJ


Not that I'm aware of.


Trogdor said:


> A few engineers use it, but most don't.


Probably why I didn't realize they were in there. Thanks, learn something new every day.


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## the_traveler (Feb 19, 2013)

I want a horn like that! 

Maybe I'll hook it up to my walking stick! That should get people out of my way in cities! :giggle:


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## rusty spike (Feb 19, 2013)

Hanno said:


> I am currently on the Auto Train heading south. After a relatively good night of rest punctuated with the faint sound of the persistent horn blowing at crossings, a question comes to mind. Does the engineer have to manually blow the horn at each crossing or is it done automatically, perhaps by a signal buried in the tracks ahead of the crossing? Just curious.
> Thanks!


In an effort to control the almost continuous noise of train horns (over 100/day) some communities like Flagstaff, Az, have installed crossing gate-mounted wayside horns with speakers directed up and down the roadway instead of down the tracks as the locomotive horn does. It still sounds the the appropriate signal (- - o -) repetatively until the train enters the crossing. (Other crossings in downtown FLG have been equipped with street and pedestrian gates and no horn is sounded at all.).Engiineers including Amtrak, are prohibited by from sounding the locomotive horn except for emergencies, which by then,in most cases, is too late.


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 19, 2013)

Shanghai said:


> With a horn on your car like the one in the video, one could scare the (blank)out of other drivers on the road!!


Wow, I agree completely. I'd think that sort of horn should be illegal for use off the railways. The whole point of that loud, recognizable sound is to alert you that you're near a grade crossing with a train nearby. If I heard a horn that loud and that close, I'd probably stop the car for fear of hitting a train. Perhaps I'm biased because I live & drive near a lot of unmarked crossings, but I think this is a really bad / dangerous idea.


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## jsreeves (Feb 19, 2013)

With a horn that loud, he's going to get a ticket in most any city/state in the US.


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## ScottC4746 (Feb 19, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Alerted to do so by a sign that usually looks something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A former engineer friend of mine told me, and I am sure things have changed, but it is two longs and a short repeated twice i. e. - - . - - . with a break or rest between repeates and then after the second repeat just blow until the engine is half way across the grade crossing.


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

As I understand it (and others in this thread have said), --o- is the correct pattern with the short coming just before the train gets to the crossing and then the last long sounding as the locomotive goes through the crossing.


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## roadman3313 (Feb 19, 2013)

It is true quite a few crossings are being modified with "NO TRAIN HORN" signs due to noise complaints. The roadway is completely blocked by gates (usually two gates instead of one in the direction of travel) and a center median installed so there is no way to go around the gate directly in front of it. Also on Caltrain they moved the horn position around too times as it was "too loud" for people living nearby. But then it became "too quiet" to meet the regulatory requirements. So it was moved yet again.

Personally, unless a train track was built when one lived in a certain place or rail service was just established, people should (hopefully) understand that there will generally be noise if one lives next to rail road tracks!


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## crescent2 (Feb 19, 2013)

Let's hope those automatic gate horns function properly! Seems less safe than the engineer sounding the horn from the train. Machines do malfunction sometimes.

I love the sound of train horns in the distance. I live just within earshot of a track.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 19, 2013)

I have known folks who put a locomotive airhorm on their pickup hooked up to compressed air they had in the bed. It was VERY loud...


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 19, 2013)

jsreeves said:


> With a horn that loud, he's going to get a ticket in most any city/state in the US.


From what I understand of how these work, if you reduce the air pressure, the volume will drop. Of course the horn won't sound as "ballsy."


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## Trogdor (Feb 19, 2013)

ScottC4746 said:


> A former engineer friend of mine told me, and I am sure things have changed, but it is two longs and a short repeated twice i. e. - - . - - . with a break or rest between repeates and then after the second repeat just blow until the engine is half way across the grade crossing.


I don't know the full history of whistle rules, but it has been long, long, short, long for a long (not short) time, on pretty much every railroad in the country. A bit of a web search into the history suggests these have been standard since the late 1800s. So, unless your former engineer friend was running steam before the automobile was invented, or unless he worked for some railroad that, for whatever reason, had a different set of whistle regulations, then the above is probably incorrect.


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## AlanB (Feb 19, 2013)

roadman3313 said:


> Personally, unless a train track was built when one lived in a certain place or rail service was just established, people should (hopefully) understand that there will generally be noise if one lives next to rail road tracks!


One would hope for that, but alas it's far from the reality.

People buy houses next to airport runways; and then complain about the noise. So we find pilots now doing stunts that would make a fighter pilot proud, like throttling back their power seconds after leaving the runway and making sharp turns all to prevent someone from hearing too much noise. I don't recall if that's O'Hare or Midway in Chicago where they have to perform that nonsense, but regardless it's a dance that pilots should never have to do!

And we spend billions in this country erecting sound barriers alongside highways because someone brought a house without considering how loud the highway would be. 

So I'm not at all surprised that people buying a house next to a train track never consider the noise associated with it. And then of course it becomes a problem that someone else should solve for them, as it couldn't be their poor decision that caused the issue.


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

Sadly, you're right.

Here's one of the more entertaining examples:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/28414-dinah-wont-u-blow-yur-horn/


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## railiner (Feb 19, 2013)

I believe there is one automatic feature.....when the engineer blows the horn, I believe the locomotive bell will also start ringing for some interval, not sure just how long.....


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

Ditch lights too, I think...


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## Amtrak Cajun (Feb 19, 2013)

Yep, the ditchlights will activate *flash* when the horn is sounded, and the bell will ring as well. They also have a separate bell button. I've heard it on the Pac-Surf vids I've seen on Youtube, they will start ringing the bell as they take off.


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## the_traveler (Feb 19, 2013)

AlanB said:


> roadman3313 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, unless a train track was built when one lived in a certain place or rail service was just established, people should (hopefully) understand that there will generally be noise if one lives next to rail road tracks!
> ...


Another example of "airport acrobatics" is Washington National Airport. Due to the restricted airspace over DC and the Pentagon, aircraft must do much twists and turns and follow the Potomac River when taking off or landing on the north. And that runway is in line with some of the restricted airspace immediately before landing or takeoff!


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## tonys96 (Feb 19, 2013)

The city where I serve as an elected official has "quiet zones" which are all the way through the city along the UP track between DAL and FTW. We installed full street crossing arms, along with an 8' high curb in the middle of the opposing traffic lanes. Thw wayside horns are in fact bells that travel down the streets, not down the tracks. We also have installed grade crossing cameras, similiar to red-light cameras, that will cost you 75 bux if you run under the arms after the lights come on and the arms begin descending down!


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## Ryan (Feb 19, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > roadman3313 said:
> ...


River Visual is one of the most awesome approaches you can fly.


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## X (Feb 19, 2013)

railiner said:


> I believe there is one automatic feature.....when the engineer blows the horn, I believe the locomotive bell will also start ringing for some interval, not sure just how long.....


Until they hit the bell off button.


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 20, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> Another example of "airport acrobatics" is Washington National Airport. Due to the restricted airspace over DC and the Pentagon, aircraft must do much twists and turns and follow the Potomac River when taking off or landing on the north. And that runway is in line with some of the restricted airspace immediately before landing or takeoff!


These patterns were also originally developed to help reduce the impact of jet noise from DCA on the surrounding area. DCA was built before the age commercial jet aircraft. The first commercial jets were much louder than today's and when they started flying into DCA it made living under the approach and takeoff lanes rather unpleasant. I know this because I grew up listening to one very loud jet after another fly over our house.


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## Shanghai (Feb 20, 2013)

Ryan said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


The old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong was famous for the degree of difficulty for landing & take-off.

You had a mountain at one end and the harbor at the other end. In between there were high rise

apartment buildings.


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## June the Coach Rider (Feb 20, 2013)

I am traveling on the LSL at this very minute and it is indeed the two longs, a short and a long at each crossing, unless in some instances there is not enough time between crossings, then he is doing continual longs and shorts until he is past the close crossings.


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## MetraUPWest (Feb 20, 2013)

All of the automatic horns at crossing have lighted boxes facing the tracks with a red X on them. If the red X is flashing, the engineer knows the system at that crossing is working properly. If it isn't flashing that indixates a malfunction and by rule you are supposed to blow the crossing with the locomotive horn.


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## ScottC4746 (Feb 20, 2013)

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Yep, the ditchlights will activate *flash* when the horn is sounded, and the bell will ring as well. They also have a separate bell button. I've heard it on the Pac-Surf vids I've seen on Youtube, they will start ringing the bell as they take off.


I do know that bells must be rung during train movement when pulling into, through, or from a station.


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## VentureForth (Feb 20, 2013)

I believe that the ditch lights and bell ONLY go off after a manual command from the engineer.


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## jis (Feb 20, 2013)

Shanghai said:


> The old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong was famous for the degree of difficulty for landing & take-off.
> 
> You had a mountain at one end and the harbor at the other end. In between there were high rise
> 
> apartment buildings.


And the prevailing wind was usually in the direction that required landing from the mountain side. This meant using the famous "Checkerboard Approach", which consisted of aiming the plane towards a checkerboard pattern painted on the mountain near the end of the runway, essentially flying perpendicular to the runway while descending, and then almost at the last moment making a steep right angle turn over Kowloon houses to line up with the runway and land. If you had a right hand side window seat, like I did many times, you could literally look into people's living rooms it was so close. And this was regularly carried out by huge 747s one after another, landing at Hong kong Kai Tak.


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## Ryan (Feb 20, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> I believe that the ditch lights and bell ONLY go off after a manual command from the engineer.


The control desk has two buttons on it (well more than 2, but 2 important ones for this conversation), one labeled "Horn" and the other labeled "Bell".
When you hit the horn, the horn goes, the ditch lights flash and the bell rings for a short period of time.

"Bell" gets you just the ditch lights and bell.


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## Alexandria Nick (Feb 20, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > roadman3313 said:
> ...


They also do it to the south, but its more subtle.

Back on the horn thing, I live near a series of grade crossings (like...five or six in the span of a half mile) and it sounds like they just lay on the horn as long as they want to without any real pattern.


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## Aaron (Feb 21, 2013)

tonys96 said:


> ...We installed full street crossing arms, along with an *8' high curb*...


I'd say that's less of a curb and more of a wall.

Anyone who's seen _This is Spinal Tap_ will recognize the inherent problem here.


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## jmx53 (Feb 21, 2013)

Shanghai said:


> With a horn on your car like the one in the video, one could scare the (blank)out of other drivers on the road!!


This is true. Unfortunately there are several jerks on youtube who take pride in posting videos of people they have scared with their horn. :angry2:


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## jmx53 (Feb 21, 2013)

AlanB said:


> People buy houses next to airport runways; and then complain about the noise. So we find pilots now doing stunts that would make a fighter pilot proud, like throttling back their power seconds after leaving the runway and making sharp turns all to prevent someone from hearing too much noise. I don't recall if that's O'Hare or Midway in Chicago where they have to perform that nonsense, but regardless it's a dance that pilots should never have to do!





AlanB said:


> So I'm not at all surprised that people buying a house next to a train track never consider the noise associated with it.


The pilot pulling back the power and banking sharply just after takeoff is called a "Noise Abatement Procedure" and has been used for decades at many airports around the world. That and the issue of neighborhoods springing up around long established airports, then the residents complaining about noise were both mentioned in the 1968 novel _Airport_ by Arthur Hailey (Don't remember if these events made it into the movie)

As for railroads, I don't think I could handle living next to a grade crossing that trains blow for in the middle of the night. I've heard you can get used to it, and that people get used to living right next to and level with the elevated tracks in NYC or Chicago, but I don't think I ever could.

However, 2 of my favorite places I lived in the past were both near Amtrak routes:

The first was in a place on a hill that overlooked the 10 freeway East of downtown LA where the tracks run in the median...Many nights I would be out on the balcony with the freeway traffic a wash of white noise, knowing the scheduled departure time. A low throated rumble could be heard over this noise that got gradually louder until the rumble was revealed to be the sweet sound of a pair of GE P30CHs tugging the short string of Superliners that made up the Sunset Limited.

The Second was near the Eugene Yard where it has a slight bend in the middle. I had a clear view of the yard across a couple hundred yards of a large field and a road. The main is welded rail there, but there is one joint that was audible when trains rolled over it, must be for signal insulation between blocks. Both the twice a day Starlight and the 4x a day Cascades trains were very distinct in sound after the locomotive noise had faded and you could hear the car wheels rolling over the joint....clickity clack clickity clack for the Starlight and clack, clack, clack for the Talgos followed by the clickity clack of the NPCU if it was trailing. The passenger trains were noticeably lighter sounding than the run-through freights that passed. The Eugene Yard is lightly used by freights now, but occasionally there would be a freight that would start out from a dead stop in that part of the yard and it was music to the ears to hear that slack action going left to right or right to left across that field as the train got moving.

Thankfully neither of these places was near a grade crossing so I never heard train whistles except the occasional short toot-toot startup signal from a freight about to move.

The place I live now is at least a couple miles from the nearest tracks and grade crossing. Sometimes in the still of the wee hours of the night when the city is sleeping, I can clearly hear the faint roar of locomotives notched up and the whistle blowing for crossings even across that distance when I am indoors with the windows closed. When the city wakes up, I can't hear them at all even if I'm outside.

One thing I find interesting though. I've watched train vids from around the world and many other countries don't seem to use the train whistle at all for crossings, even where there is no crossing arms or gates. There seem to be few if any crossing accidents like we have here in the US, or perhaps we just don't hear about them.


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## Ryan (Feb 21, 2013)

Or people in other countries are smart enough not to drive in front of a moving train.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 21, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Or people in other countries are smart enough not to drive in front of a moving train.


Or stop on tracks. The other day I saw two cars that I believe would have been hit, even if they were not directly on the track, if a freight train came at that moment. They were stopped because of a stopped garbage truck on the other side of the track. I'm not even sure they could see what the hold up was because I think there was a big truck in front of them. From one direction, the engineer would not even see them till he was almost at the crossing as he would be coming around a curve and have a building blocking his line of sight. Cars have been hit at this crossing in the past. Actually it's two crossings right next to each other as the road splits there.


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## SarahZ (Feb 21, 2013)

Does the W sign with another sign with "MX" under it mean "multiple crossings"? I see that along the tracks near my house, as the train passes several intersections within just a few blocks. The train whistle blows pretty much constantly along that stretch.

Also, it's probably just my imagination, but when the Wolverine(s) are late and don't arrive until after 10:00 PM, the horn seems quieter. Do they have "quiet hours"?

I like hearing the horn. I'm used to it by now, and it lets me know (roughly) what time it is. When I hear the two Wolverines between 9:00 and 10:00 PM, I know it's getting late and I need to think about heading to bed.  They usually pass within 15-20 minutes of each other, so the first train is the warning, and the second train is "GO TO BED".


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## Ryan (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> Does the W sign with another sign with "MX" under it mean "multiple crossings"?


Yes ma'am!

Gold star for you!


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## SarahZ (Feb 21, 2013)




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## tonys96 (Feb 21, 2013)

Aaron said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > ...We installed full street crossing arms, along with an *8' high curb*...
> ...


Great catch....of course, I meant 8"


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## MetraUPWest (Feb 22, 2013)

Amtrak engines all have a 2 stage horn- if you only push the button halfway down the horn won't blast at full volume- push all the way down and it will. I'm not sure if there is a rule saying they must blow quieter at night- I'd guess the engineer is just being nice.


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 28, 2013)

Alexandria Nick said:


> Back on the horn thing, I live near a series of grade crossings (like...five or six in the span of a half mile) and it sounds like they just lay on the horn as long as they want to without any real pattern.


I'm curious where this is. The closest to ALX that I'm aware this exists is MSS.

Edit: Unless, on second thought, you mean the soon to be abandoned and now seldom used spur track to Robinson Terminal and the decommissioned power plant..


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## Veleka (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm considering taking the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to Los Angeles.  I slept very poorly on a trip from New Orleans to Chicago because of the near constant sound of the horn.  So I have two questions about the Sunset Limited.  First, is there anywhere on the train far enough away from the horn that I wouldn't hear it?  And second, on the journey from New Orleans to Los Angeles, are there stretches of land at night when there is no horn?


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## tim49424 (Mar 1, 2019)

Veleka said:


> I'm considering taking the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to Los Angeles.  I slept very poorly on a trip from New Orleans to Chicago because of the near constant sound of the horn.  So I have two questions about the Sunset Limited.  First, is there anywhere on the train far enough away from the horn that I wouldn't hear it?  And second, on the journey from New Orleans to Los Angeles, are there stretches of land at night when there is no horn?


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## Rasputin (Mar 1, 2019)

Ear plugs would certainly help.  

Also, the Texas Eagle sleeper, which operates in the Sunset three days a week between San Antonio and LA is usually located at the rear of the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and LA.  That would be a quieter place to ride if you got a room in that car. I have ridden in this car a couple times and I found it to be nice and quiet.  Since it is at the end of the train, there aren't many people walking through the car either.  Of course that wouldn't help between New Orleans and LA. 

Most of the trip in west Texas, New Mexico and Arizona would have fewer road crossings and would also be quieter.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 1, 2019)

The city of New Orleans is unique in that it operates with 1 locomotive and no baggage car. That means if you are in the transdorm there is nothing in between you and the lead engine. (Usually the transdorm is 1 locomotive and 1 baggage car away). That makes a big difference in the noise level. I wouldn’t worry about it too much on other trains. I remember being in the transdorm (as close as you can get to the engines) on the sunset and not noticing the horn much.


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## cpotisch (Mar 1, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The city of New Orleans is unique in that it operates with 1 locomotive and no baggage car. That means if you are in the transdorm there is nothing in between you and the lead engine. (Usually the transdorm is 1 locomotive and 1 baggage car away). That makes a big difference in the noise level. I wouldn’t worry about it too much on other trains. I remember being in the transdorm (as close as you can get to the engines) on the sunset and not noticing the horn much.


The (CHI-SAS) Texas Eagle is the same story, with one loco and no baggage car, so the CONO isn't totally unique.

[email protected][/USER] Will you be traveling in coach or a sleeper?


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## cpotisch (Mar 1, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> Also, the Texas Eagle sleeper, *which operates in the Sunset three days a week between San Antonio and LA *is usually located at the rear of the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and LA.  That would be a quieter place to ride if you got a room in that car. I have ridden in this car a couple times and I found it to be nice and quiet.  Since it is at the end of the train, there aren't many people walking through the car either.  Of course that wouldn't help between New Orleans and LA.


You know that the Eagle through-cars operate every day the Sunset runs, right?

Also, the Eagle coach and sleeper are _always_ at the back of the Sunset between SAS and LAX, not just "usually". I think the big question here, as I asked in the above post, is whether the OP is traveling in a coach or a sleeper. If she's traveling coach, she'll be at the back of the train and it's extremely unlikely that the horn would be anything close to loud enough to be an issue. If she's getting a sleeper, things get interesting because the Sunset's Trans-Dorm and sleeper are at the front of the train, and she'll probably hear the horn. Now I still really doubt that the horn would be so loud that it's an issue, but if she just doesn't want to hear it at all, it might make sense to go coach to San Antonio, and then switch to the Eagle #422 sleeper, since it's at the back of the train.


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## fillyjonk (Mar 1, 2019)

My parents' town is a "No Train Horn" town (my mom commented on how it's weird to see "horn" on the signs because she thinks of it as a whistle). I guess people complained. I don't know. In my town, I live about 3/4 of a mile from freight tracks. I hear trains. They are on a regular schedule. I don't mind them at all - in fact, some early mornings if I hear one of the horns, I know it's almost time to get up. The whistles are not loud enough to bother me.

But you can BET if one of my jackwagon neighbors got a train horn on their car and blew it in my neighborhood, I'd be filing a noise complaint. That's too darn loud too close....and it would scare the daylights out of me if someone did that when I was out on the road. It's kind of like the super-bright headlights: the owner of the car might feel safer but it makes everyone less safe because it sensorily overwhelms the other drivers.


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## LookingGlassTie (Mar 1, 2019)

One thing I've leaned is to relate the horn sequence to which car I'm in on the train, and how far that car is from the locomotive.   What I mean is that sometimes I've heard the full sequence and THEN the car I'm riding in passes the crossing.


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## SarahZ (Mar 1, 2019)

While earplugs do help, they're still fairly useless when the sleeper is only 2-3 cars back from the locomotive. I got absolutely zero sleep on the CONO and TE, despite using earplugs combined with headphones playing white noise. Thank goodness those were both one-night trips.


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## cpotisch (Mar 1, 2019)

SarahZ said:


> While earplugs do help, they're still fairly useless when the sleeper is only 2-3 cars back from the locomotive. I got absolutely zero sleep on the CONO and TE, despite using earplugs combined with headphones playing white noise. Thank goodness those were both one-night trips.


Wow. We didn't have any issue at all during the two nights we were on the TE last year (in the revenue sleeper, right behind the Trans-Dorm and baggage car). Would you say it was particularly loud or was it just the nature of the sound that made it impossible to sleep?


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 1, 2019)

I’ve been able to sleep in the transdorm on the city but I also do agree the horn is quite a bit louder there.


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## SarahZ (Mar 1, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Wow. We didn't have any issue at all during the two nights we were on the TE last year (in the revenue sleeper, right behind the Trans-Dorm and baggage car). Would you say it was particularly loud or was it just the nature of the sound that made it impossible to sleep?


I have insanely good hearing, and I'm a light sleeper. Even in a fairly quiet hotel, I tend to wake up every hour or so.

At home, I sleep with a box fan running, which helps cover up some of the neighbor activity and building noises. I find it incredibly hard to sleep without a fan. When I'm in a hotel that doesn't have a loud enough fan setting on the HVAC, I put in my soft earbuds and play this YouTube video. I often listen to this when I need to relax, too.


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## TinCan782 (Mar 1, 2019)

SarahZ...you might like this...

https://www.noisli.com/

Create your own mix of sounds including, of all things, a train!

The airplane white noise video you posted is nice.


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## tim49424 (Mar 1, 2019)

SarahZ said:


> I have insanely good hearing, and I'm a light sleeper.


As do I.......weird enough, I was placed in the transdorm on the TE from FTW-CHI back in the fall of 2015 and didn't have a problem at all with sleep.....w/o plugs  It could be because I was so extremely exhausted from that trip.  I went from Holland to LA on the SWC, to SD and back to LA, then back home on the Eagle when we were stranded in San Marcos, TX as our train was terminated due to massive flooding, then we were bussed to FTW after 30 hours at San Marcos.  I made a vow at that point, never to take a LD trip without a hotel break of some sort again.  I don't suggest that sedative but it sure did work being so close to the front of the train. I only suggested the ear plugs because they do work for some people, including myself.  I had to use them when traveling with my late mother because she had sleep apnea.


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## Rasputin (Mar 1, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Also, the Eagle coach and sleeper are _always_ at the back of the Sunset between SAS and LAX, not just "usually".


In discussing railroads, I think it is dangerous to use the words "always" or "never."


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## Trogdor (Mar 1, 2019)

LookingGlassTie said:


> One thing I've leaned is to relate the horn sequence to which car I'm in on the train, and how far that car is from the locomotive.   What I mean is that sometimes I've heard the full sequence and THEN the car I'm riding in passes the crossing.


I’m theory, this is supposed to happen every time. The locomotive should be on the final long horn blast by the time it occupies the crossing, meaning they should be done sounding the horn before any passenger cars get through the crossing (obvious exception being a cab car on a train in push mode).


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## cpotisch (Mar 1, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> In discussing railroads, I think it is dangerous to use the words "always" or "never."


True, but the word "usually" implies a bit less certainty than there is here. I can not find a single example anywhere of the Eagle through-cars not being at the back of the Sunset.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 1, 2019)

I think I have something that can help you get to sleep SarahZ.

After they removed 10 hours of Cantina Band, I found this helps:


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## SarahZ (Mar 1, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> I only suggested the ear plugs because they do work for some people, including myself.  I had to use them when traveling with my late mother because she had sleep apnea.


Oh, they definitely help! I'm not arguing that. I've simply never been able to find earplugs that shut out the horn completely.

Like you, I sleep better the second/third night on a train. I also take melatonin since I'm a night owl and never manage to acclimate to "train hours". If I didn't, I'd be up super late, and I don't like missing breakfast or scenery. Train travel is about the only time you'll see me (voluntarily) awake at 6:00 a.m.  :lol:


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## Manny T (Mar 1, 2019)

From my experience, the "sleepers" are always in front on the CL. And of course other trains as well, I don't have a list.

Question, why would Amtrak EVER position the "sleeping car" in the front of the train, rather than the back where it is quieter? And should I not ask the question because hey, coach PAX have to sleep too? 

Seems that if you offer a product called a "sleeping car" with a bed etc. and charge a premium price, it would make sense to place it in the quietest possible location (rear of train).


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## tim49424 (Mar 1, 2019)

SarahZ said:


> Oh, they definitely help! I'm not arguing that. I've simply never been able to find earplugs that shut out the horn completely.
> Like you, I sleep better the second/third night on a train. I also take melatonin since I'm a night owl and never manage to acclimate to "train hours". If I didn't, I'd be up super late, and I don't like missing breakfast or scenery. Train travel is about the only time you'll see me (voluntarily) awake at 6:00 a.m.


As much as I love train travel, sleep is very much at a premium. After the aforementioned LA trip, I’ve built in at least two nights at a hotel. As like you, scenery is very important (as is breakfast) to me. I don’t do much sightseeing at many of my destinations, as whatever I see out the train window is my sightseeing. Where we differ, is the train horn is at times soothing to me and sometimes the white noise you referred to earlier. It literally doesn’t play into my sleep deprivation. It’s more the rough track in places that tends to wake me up numerous times during the night....and I rarely nap on the train because I don’t want to miss anything.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 2, 2019)

The back of the train is going to be a little rougher than the center of the train. If there are 2 locomotives, a baggage car, and a transdorm that should be plenty  to dampen the train horn noise. 

Having one theoretically non-reve car in between the engine and the 1st revenue car seems to make sense.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

Manny T said:


> From my experience, the "sleepers" are always in front on the CL. And of course other trains as well, I don't have a list.
> 
> Question, why would Amtrak EVER position the "sleeping car" in the front of the train, rather than the back where it is quieter? And should I not ask the question because hey, coach PAX have to sleep too?
> 
> Seems that if you offer a product called a "sleeping car" with a bed etc. and charge a premium price, it would make sense to place it in the quietest possible location (rear of train).


The main reason they are usually at the front on Superliners is that the Trans-Dorm needs to be at the front of the train, so it makes sense to have all the sleepers together on one side of the dining car. On Viewliner trains, the sleepers are always at the back, with the exception of the Boston section of the LSL.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> As much as I love train travel, sleep is very much at a premium. After the aforementioned LA trip, I’ve built in at least two nights at a hotel. As like you, scenery is very important (as is breakfast) to me. I don’t do much sightseeing at many of my destinations, as whatever I see out the train window is my sightseeing. Where we differ, is the train horn is at times soothing to me and sometimes the white noise you referred to earlier. It literally doesn’t play into my sleep deprivation. It’s more the rough track in places that tends to wake me up numerous times during the night....and I rarely nap on the train because I don’t want to miss anything.


Interestingly, for me it's the temperature that often makes it hard to sleep onboard. I'm okay with rough track and the sound of the horn, but those in-room thermostats aren't getting any younger, and if it gets too cold, I will end up in this unpleasant and grumpy/confused not-quite-asleep-but-certainly-not-awake interim state. That's why I always make sure to have an extra blanket and some super warm PJs when spending a night on the train.


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## tim49424 (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Interestingly, for me it's the temperature that often makes it hard to sleep onboard. I'm okay with rough track and the sound of the horn, but those in-room thermostats aren't getting any younger, and if it gets too cold, I will end up in this unpleasant and grumpy/confused not-quite-asleep-but-certainly-not-awake interim state. That's why I always make sure to have an extra blanket and some super warm PJs when spending a night on the train.


I’m just the opposite, I sleep better when the room temperature is cooler. The old adage plays well for this old guy....you can always put more layers on but you can only take so much off. LOL

I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a too hot sleeping environment on a train. If I’m riding coach, then I tend to get hot. But I only ride coach on day trips to Chicago.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> I’m﻿ just the opposite, I sleep better when the room temperature is cooler. The old adage plays well for this old guy....you can always p﻿ut more layers on but you can only take so much off. LOL﻿﻿


I also like sleeping when it’s colder, but not when it’s REALLY cold. My worst night’s sleep on Amtrak by far was in the Family Bedroom on the TE/SL. It was the lower-level (obviously) of a 40+ year old Superliner I, the HVAC in our car wasn’t the best, and we were literally rolling through the desert in February. It was really shockingly cold. :unsure:


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## Trogdor (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> we were literally rolling through the dessert in February. It was really shockingly cold. :unsure:




Sounds tasty.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I also like sleeping when it’s colder, but not when it’s REALLY cold. My worst night’s sleep on Amtrak by far was in the Family Bedroom on the TE/SL. It was the lower-level (obviously) of a 40+ year old Superliner I, the HVAC in our car wasn’t the best, and we were literally rolling through the dessert in February. *It was really shockingly cold*. :unsure:


It's normal for the desert to be cold at night.      https://www.climas.arizona.edu/sw-climate/sw-temperature



> he daily range between maximum and minimum temperatures sometimes runs as much as *50 to 60 degrees F* during the drier periods of the year. During winter months, daytime temperatures may average*70 degrees F*, with night temperatures often falling to freezing of slightly below in the lower desert valleys."


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> It's normal for the desert to be cold at night.      https://www.climas.arizona.edu/sw-climate/sw-temperature


I know it's normal. That's my point. I was listing all the factors that resulted in such a cold night onboard. 



> It was the lower-level (obviously) of a 40+ year old Superliner I, the HVAC in our car wasn’t the best, and we were literally rolling through the desert in February


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

Trogdor said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > we were literally rolling through the dessert in February. It was really shockingly cold. :unsure:
> ...


Interestingly I had just noticed that about a second before your post showed up. :giggle:


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## fillyjonk (Mar 2, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> I’m just the opposite, I sleep better when the room temperature is cooler. The old adage plays well for this old guy....you can always put more layers on but you can only take so much off. LOL
> 
> I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a too hot sleeping environment on a train. If I’m riding coach, then I tend to get hot. But I only ride coach on day trips to Chicago.


I have. I've been on the TE a few times where wow, they had the heat CRANKED in the sleepers. I could only figure someone complained too many times and the car attendant was like "Okay, fine, we'll put it up to 11." I suppose I could have complained to the attendant too but that's not in my nature to...

I sleep better with cold than hot. Hot makes me feel sick to my stomach...there have been a few times it was so hot I left the door to my roomette open to get a little airflow, even though I felt really insecure with doing that.


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## Amtrak706 (Mar 2, 2019)

There is a little bit of misinformation in here about how the horn/bell setup works. On most locomotives built from the 1990s to present, the bell is triggered when the horn is blown. Western railroads do not use flashing ditch lights, so only Amtrak and the Eastern roads also have the ditch lights start flashing when the horn is blown.

Modern Amtrak engines do have two stage buttons, but that is a special setup involving two Graham White valves that have been modified, and freight units do not have that setup. Older locomotives like the F40s and AEM7s had manual valves, where you could “feather” or “quill” the horn based on how hard you pulled the handle (or in the AEM7’s case, the Viloco cord).

The bell button turns the bell on and off, it has nothing to do with the ditch lights. Their flashing can only be triggered by the horn, and they stop flashing on their own after about 30 seconds. This is also separate from the light switch which can turn the ditch lights off entirely and dim the headlights for oncoming trains. On locomotives with flashing ditch lights, the light switch can be completely off and if the horn is blown the ditch lights will still turn on and start flashing, and then go dark after 30 seconds.

The horn sequencer pedal can mostly be found on GE locomotives built since the mid 90s, but I believe the feature is also included in EMD’s EM2000 control system so some of their engines might also have it. Most engineers don’t use it because it’s easier to time the last blast over the crossing if you do the sequence manually. But it is pretty distinctive when you do hear it, once you know what it sounds like you can tell it apart pretty well from an engineer blowing manually.


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## Rasputin (Mar 2, 2019)

Manny T said:


> Question, why would Amtrak EVER position the "sleeping car" in the front of the train, rather than the back where it is quieter? And should I not ask the question because hey, coach PAX have to sleep too?
> 
> Seems that if you offer a product called a "sleeping car" with a bed etc. and charge a premium price, it would make sense to place it in the quietest possible location (rear of train).


The standard tradition years ago was that the sleepers were on the rear of the train and the coaches were at the front and that is how it should be.  This was the practice on the railroads before Amtrak and in the early years of Amtrak.  It is still the practice on VIA's overnight trains and it was practice of VIA's predecessors, CN and CP.


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## spinnaker (Mar 2, 2019)

jis said:


> Since the length of the sequence and when to start blowing depends on the speed of the train, it is hard to automate that simply. It would do no good if you are done blowing the sequence and your still 200 yards away from the actual road that it was meant for!


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## spinnaker (Mar 2, 2019)

jis said:


> Since the length of the sequence and when to start blowing depends on the speed of the train, it is hard to automate that simply. It would do no good if you are done blowing the sequence and your still 200 yards away from the actual road that it was meant for!


Not really.   It would be fairly easy to automate.   In fact I am real surprised it is no being done.

The only thing that might be needed would be local sensors that the engine can pick up.   Bur that would mean more maintenance probbaly the reaon it is not done.


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## Amtrak706 (Mar 2, 2019)

spinnaker said:


> Not really.   It would be fairly easy to automate.   In fact I am real surprised it is no being done.
> 
> The only thing that might be needed would be local sensors that the engine can pick up.   Bur that would mean more maintenance probbaly the reaon it is not done.


More recent freight GEs have a smarter version of the sequencer. It isn’t exactly automated, but it uses the distance counter to space the sequence out over 1000 feet, which can be faster or slower depending on speed. It uses a push button that is pressed once, no more holding the pedal down. Still, I think engineers feel safer doing it manually since it’s really not difficult and they know they’ve given the warning they want to give.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 2, 2019)

Amtrak706 said:


> The bell button turns the bell on and off, it has nothing to do with the ditch lights.Their flashing can only be triggered by the horn


That largely applies to the P42/P42 fleet. The bells EMD engines, the cab cars and the AEM-7dcs caused the ditch lights to flash.



Amtrak706 said:


> and they stop flashing on their own after about 30 seconds. This is also separate from the light switch which can turn the ditch lights off entirely and dim the headlights for oncoming trains. On locomotives with flashing ditch lights, the light switch can be completely off and if the horn is blown the ditch lights will still turn on and start flashing, and then go dark after 30 seconds.


The diesel fleet has been or is being modified to allow the flashing ditch lights to deactivate upon demand while in the on position. You no longer have to wait 30 seconds for them to turn off automatically. The Siemens fleet and what is left of the AEM-7 fleet already have this capability.


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## Amtrak706 (Mar 3, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> That largely applies to the P42/P42 fleet. The bells EMD engines, the cab cars and the AEM-7dcs caused the ditch lights to flash.
> 
> The diesel fleet has been or is being modified to allow the flashing ditch lights to deactivate upon demand while in the on position. You no longer have to wait 30 seconds for them to turn off automatically. The Siemens fleet and what is left of the AEM-7 fleet already have this capability.


Ah, ok. Well the majority of newer freight units do work the way I’ve described. Some older EMDs work the way you are talking about which leads me to believe it has to do with the ditch lights being a retrofit.

And interesting about the Siemens units. Does this include Chargers? I’ve only been in one once and I remember the ditch lights coming on and flashing on their own with the horn even when the rest of the lights were completely off. They weren’t in revenue service yet so this could have been changed later.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 3, 2019)

Amtrak706 said:


> And interesting about the Siemens units. Does this include Chargers? I’ve only been in one once and I remember the ditch lights coming on and flashing on their own with the horn even when the rest of the lights were completely off. They weren’t in revenue service yet so this could have been changed later.


HA. They still do this!  You could bump into the horn knob or hit the horn by mistake and those ultra bright ditch lights would flash...and flash..and flash. Some of them were much longer than 30 seconds. So, Siemens came out with a mod, allowing you to toggle the ditch light switch to stop the flashing and restore it to the selected position.


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## mcropod (Mar 3, 2019)

Train horns - or in steam days, whistles - are fabulously evocative sounds.  They are also regionally specific.  As a young fellow in steam to diesel era Scotland, living close to the Aberdeen London east coast express line, I could hear the whistles and horns, as well as get to a bridge over the line to be engulfed by the steam as it passed underneath.

We'd never call the diesel pulled trains anything other than "Ba-PAP" trains because of their horn, a distinctly different signal sound from the whistles of the steam locos.

Upon moving to suburban Melbourne in Oz, we were always close to the extensive suburban service, and their electric trains had a sharp and high-pitched horn signal, mostly sounded just before station departure as a signal to passengers.  Most road crossings are and were gated, so the horn wasn't much used for that.

And then I saw the Hollywood film set in Melbourne about the end of the earth following a nuclear war in the northern hemisphere "On the Beach" which has a number of scenes where the suburban trains are featured, and their horn sound was dubbed to insert the lower USA standard tone.

What a travesty!


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## spinnaker (Mar 4, 2019)

Amtrak706 said:


> More recent freight GEs have a smarter version of the sequencer. It isn’t exactly automated, but it uses the distance counter to space the sequence out over 1000 feet, which can be faster or slower depending on speed. It uses a push button that is pressed once, no more holding the pedal down. Still, I think engineers feel safer doing it manually since it’s really not difficult and they know they’ve given the warning they want to give.


And it is every little kids dream so might as well live the dream while you can.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 4, 2019)

I would like to had that a lot of rule books tend to make you blow the same horn sequence for grade crossings and passing standing trains on an adjacent track.  That can lead to a heck of a sequence if you're passing a two mile freight train.


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## Chatter163 (Mar 6, 2019)




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