# Empire Builder-Spring 2015



## montana mike (Mar 9, 2015)

Looks like BNSF is starting things early this year. With good weather, almost no snow cover and a lot to do on the Hi-Line in 2015, travel delays appear to be starting early. Two of the EBs are way behind today (#8, still plugging away in Wisconsin for example, will be over 6 hours late into CHI).

I booked myself an eastbound connection with the CL next month (figuring 2 hours and 45 minutes would be doable given the decent timekeeping until recently), but my BNSF friend just told me I better have Plan B in place, as he thinks the 3-5 hour arrival delays into CHI-town may be coming back sooner rather than later. Rats!!!!!

He also told me BNSF has let Amtrak know what THEY think the delays will be and had suggested that Amtrak consider adjusting the schedule again for the construction season or just eliminate all of the connections for the EB's again. So far no response from Amtrak HQ on this.


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## TraneMan (Mar 10, 2015)

The late EB in WI was a loco issues, and the late EB in MT was a late start out of CHI.


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## montana mike (Mar 10, 2015)

I realize that today, however, BNSF has given Amtrak notice of their work schedule and possible delays AGAIN this year. Hopefully BNSF will do everything they can to mitigate these delays, but you know as well as I do, when they are planning to spend several hundred million in track resurfacing, replacing tracks and even adding more tracks, the work schedules of these projects often interfere with everyday operational schedules. It has for over three years now. This is why BNSF has been discussing ways with Amtrak to limit the impacts of this year's construction and maintenance efforts.

I will let you know if I make my connection next month........


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## neroden (Mar 10, 2015)

Unfortunately, in recent months, CP delays have been almost as bad as, or even worse than, BNSF delays. And I expect them to get worse, thanks to a certain hostile CEO. :-(


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## Phil S (Mar 10, 2015)

On #27 over the weekend, I saw many miles of roadbed ready for double track At least some of it seemed too long to be sidings. Bridges were in but so far no signals have been moved. Any word on how much of this they plan to do this spring? Just curious. Far fewer unit oil trains than I'm used to seeing. The stacker traffic east-bound over the mountains was non stop.


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## Palmetto (Mar 10, 2015)

My understanding is the BNSF plans to double-track as far west as Snowden, MT. If so, that will bring them past the furthest-most Bakken oil loadout which is Trenton on the Glasgow Subdivision and Dore, ND on the Sidney Line Sub. West of there, it'll be the current single track with sidings AFAIK.


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## oregon pioneer (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks for letting us know, Mike. Interested to see about your connection success...


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## OrionsGate (Mar 12, 2015)

Any idea if they will be doing a complete directional routing system again in North Dakota with eastbounds travelling the Devils Lake/Hillsboro and the westbounds travelling the KO?


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## NW cannonball (Mar 12, 2015)

OrionsGate said:


> Any idea if they will be doing a complete directional routing system again in North Dakota with eastbounds travelling the Devils Lake/Hillsboro and the westbounds travelling the KO?


No clue here about that. If the last-year scheduled projects completed, there will be two new passing sidings on the FAR-GFK line -- which would help the EB from last years several total tie-ups on that part of the route. BUT that 90 mile stretch FAR GFK is , has been, and will be, subject to floods, frost heaves and being not so important for freight.MOT-GFK might be more important to BNSF, for crude trains, but really, not even Warren B has a clue, and I don't think Rose or anybody else at BNSF has a clue, about what BNSF needs, given the crazy oil-price situation, given the lcoal politics --

Don't bet on anything out there in Dakota.

It's anybody's guess how that whole thing plays out, and me, I need the EB to visit my kids, and I'll allow an extra day, just to be safe


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## montana mike (Mar 12, 2015)

Just a quick update from my local BNSF contact today: He said BNSF has told Amtrak that they should expect 1-2 hour delays in eastern ND into western MN from now thru August as they finish up construction work in that area. Also, Amtrak could experience 1-2 hour delays in MT (throughout most of the state) as a number of smaller projects begin shortly. No big delays in any one area, just a lot of slow orders and intermittent stoppages from time to time.

I think the 3-5 hour estimated delays over the entire EB route, as suggested by my other BNSF friend may come to pass, especially as we get into the height of the construction season (June thru Sept).


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## Steve4031 (Mar 12, 2015)

WellTrained said:


> On #27 over the weekend, I saw many miles of roadbed ready for double track At least some of it seemed too long to be sidings. Bridges were in but so far no signals have been moved. Any word on how much of this they plan to do this spring? Just curious. Far fewer unit oil trains than I'm used to seeing. The stacker traffic east-bound over the mountains was non stop.


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## montana mike (Mar 12, 2015)

BNSF has allotted $162 million in MT for construction and maintenance. A decent amount. I expect that these efforts should be in full swing within the next 45 days and last thru much of the Fall.


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## SantaFeFan (Mar 12, 2015)

Does anyone know when construction will start on the La Junta subdivision?


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## Palmetto (Mar 12, 2015)

Sounds like a temporary schedule adjustment is called for owing to the construction delays.


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## montana mike (Mar 13, 2015)

Note that #8, currently in MN (and 3 1/2 hours behind today), lost ALL of that time thru eastern ND and MN last night. The very area my BNSF guy has told me will be one of the slow order areas in 2015. This coincides with several projects that started last week. Could be a challenge for me to make that 2 hour and 45 minute connection in April. Rats......now I know why Amtrak would not let me book a connection on the CL.


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## jebr (Mar 13, 2015)

montana mike said:


> Note that #8, currently in MN (and 3 1/2 hours behind today), lost ALL of that time thru eastern ND and MN last night. The very area my BNSF guy has told me will be one of the slow order areas in 2015. This coincides with several projects that started last week. Could be a challenge for me to make that 2 hour and 45 minute connection in April. Rats......now I know why Amtrak would not let me book a connection on the CL.




I'm hoping for them to restore it in order to get to Rockville (instead of WAS.) The current connections are terrible (get into WAS at 12:30 AM, after the Metro closes, and almost 12 hours later than the CL would.) I'm half tempted to fly or bus to Chicago if the connection isn't restored, because losing that much time is terrible.


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## montana mike (Mar 13, 2015)

I will let you know if I make my connection. I have my doubts now (the local Amtrak stationmaster says 50-50 at best), given the increasing delays that BNSF construction efforts along this route will cause this Spring and Summer. My local contact said BNSF is really ramping up the construction given the mild and generally dry weather along the Hi-Line (essentially no snow from the Rocky Mtn front to MSP-amazing). Frustrating that they can't set up thru service with a "supposed" 2 hour and 45 minute connection time, but that's the reality of the moment I am afraid.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 14, 2015)

Yeah, the EB connections in CHI -- bad - the connections WB to the CS -- bad.

BUT - for those of us, like possibly a majority if EB users west of MSP and east of SPK --

The train still works good. The timing - not so much -- the connections -- not good.

But driving US 2 -- worse.


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## montana mike (Mar 14, 2015)

Agree about the connections issue. It was interesting that BNSF urged Amtrak to adjust the EB schedules slightly to try to meet connections, but Amtrak said no!! So basically all EBs just go point to point with no connections on the west coast and very few opportunities in CHI to continue eastbound. At least BNSF is being honest about their ability to push the pax trains thru their still clogged Hi-Line route. They made it clear what options Amtrak had and it was Amtrak senior management that chose to go back to the old schedule, even though BNSF told them that the delays would still continue, albeit somewhat less than before (3+ hours vs 6+ hours over the past couple of summers). With the early start of the construction season and very little chance for any major flooding in ND and MN it should be a very active construction and maintenance season for them, which hopefully will mean better timekeeping NEXT year.


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## neroden (Mar 14, 2015)

The trouble is, if you adjust the intermediate points schedule, then if you do arrive early, you have to sit and wait. :-( And the dispatchers may still delay you.

This can make performance even WORSE. There have been no instances in the past where adding slack to the schedule on a Class I has helped OTP, and many where it made it worse, so Amtrak has probably learned from experience.

I don't suppose BNSF offered to pay Amtrak a large sum in compensation for using an alternative schedule.

Given the history here, I would have made the same decision Amtrak did. Hopefully enough improvements and BNSF will be able to start running trains on time next year.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 14, 2015)

The point MM mentioned about "no likely flooding this year"

That seems likely, no floods foreseen on the route this year, and it is a big plus. (what years this century didn't flood parts of the Hi-Line?)

Hope a drier year helps BNSF with their upgrades this year. And the lower crude prices may temporarily take some traffic off the line - good? bad? for who?

Anyhow, hoping for a good construction season, but delays will be part of the game, no doubt.


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## montana mike (Mar 15, 2015)

#8 in MN lost over 2 1/2 hours going thru ND last night, which is what BNSF has predicted will be happening. Rats.

:-(

Note sure what happened to #7 after Libby, MT, but now showing a service disruption. The Hi-Line jinx is alive and well in 2015.


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## SteveSFL (Mar 15, 2015)

Looks like westbound connections in PDX to southbound CS are still being allowed.


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## montana mike (Mar 17, 2015)

#8 in MN now over 4 hours behind. I wish Amtrak had listened to BNSF.


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## montana mike (Mar 17, 2015)

Given the current lateness of today's #8 now just into WI (over 4 1/2 hours behind), it looks like it will miss all connections except for the LSL, and even that is in jeopardy. Meanwhile westbound #7 is now running 90 minutes behind, losing that time in ND/MT, the area that my BNSF contact told me that BNSF informed Amtrak that the EBs would lose 1-2 hours daily from now until the Fall.

Amtrak was so intent on putting the EBs back under the old schedule they ignored the realities of what they were told would happen during the 2015 construction season. So I would expect 2+ hour delays westbound and 3+ hour delays eastbound being the norm from now until late Fall.

Maybe next year................


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## mwmnp (Mar 17, 2015)

There's not much construction going on yet. Most of the delays are related to slow orders due to the ground thawing out. Look, in particular, at the delays adding up between Minot and Fargo - that stretch is infamous for spring frost heaves year after year after year, going back to the Great Northern days.

On a different note, if you make a reservation involving one of the EB connections that is currently allowed, but Amtrak then suspends the connection before your travel date, what happens to your reservation?


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## jebr (Mar 17, 2015)

If the 2014 "extended" schedule was put back in place as-is, would that absorb much of the delays? (As in are those buffer zones still the best places to put them?)

If so, I wouldn't mind an extended schedule if it meant good enough OTP to restore the Cap, Card, Wolverine, and Illinois Zephyr connections. Amtrak must be losing out on a fair amount of connecting business there...that's quite a few connections. (The current arrival into WAS is terrible with the connection from the LSL to a NER...gets in at 12:30 AM, after the Metrorail closes five out of seven days! It's actually making me look into flying or busing into Chicago and taking the CL from there.)


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## montana mike (Mar 17, 2015)

I have followed the slow orders thru ND and MT, while BNSF does slow the EBs down modestly in several spots, especially ND (although the delays the past several days in MT do not appear to have had much to do with the Spring thaw cycle-since I noticed several times where EBs just sat on sidings for 30-45 minutes), a significant reason for the delays are for several reasons: BNSF is mobilizing crews, stockpiling materials and this has likely had a slowing effect, plus there has been recent increase in Inter Modal freight as well as BNSF is moving a lot more traffic to the west coast after the settlement of the dock strike. Yes, if Amtrak had accepted BNSF's recommendation and adjusted the schedules (perhaps not has much as last year), the delays into CHI perhaps would have allowed for connections to all eastbound pax trains, something that was pointed out to Amtrak management, but obviously was not acted upon, therefore incoming EB pax at CHI have no choice but to stay overnight or take a shot (a long one perhaps) at catching the CL or LSL as the only options.

C'est La Vie.

:-(


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## SteveSFL (Mar 18, 2015)

mwmnp said:


> On a different note, if you make a reservation involving one of the EB connections that is currently allowed, but Amtrak then suspends the connection before your travel date, what happens to your reservation?


Good question. I'm connecting from EB(27) to Coast Starlight (11) in Portland on May 9th. If they broke the connection it would really mess my trip up because I'm connecting to the Sunset Limited in LA on the 10th and it doesn't run again until three days later.


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## Phil S (Mar 18, 2015)

montana mike said:


> . Yes, if Amtrak had accepted BNSF's recommendation and adjusted the schedules (perhaps not has much as last year), the delays into CHI perhaps would have allowed for connections to all eastbound pax trains, something that was pointed out to Amtrak management, but obviously was not acted upon, therefore incoming EB pax at CHI have no choice but to stay overnight or take a shot (a long one perhaps) at catching the CL or LSL as the only options.
> 
> C'est La Vie.
> 
> :-(


That's what I just don't understand on the part of Amtrak. Eliminate some of the extra padding in January, fine, but everyone knew the construction would start up again. The only encouraging thing about this is (it seems to me) that BNSF is trying to do things right, just making some bad predictions, like not guessing accurately how much the oil transport volumes would increase and then later decrease as nat gas prices plummet (due to Saudi intervention as best I can tell). Can't really blame them for that..Hell of a way to run a country


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## montana mike (Mar 18, 2015)

BNSF Update from my contacts:

1. The heavier freight traffic will continue for the next 3-4 weeks as the congestion from the west coast ports are cleared up.

2. The 2015 construction season will really pick up in early April in ND, mid-April in eastern MT and late April in western MT.

3. Intermodal is forecasted to increase further over the summer.

4. Oil trains will continue at a high pace thru June/July, then ease off slowly for the rest of the year, UNLESS the price of oil goes back up.

5. Not a big thaw season due to the mild and dry weather in eastern MT and ND this year. The slow orders are limited to several key (and fortunately relatively short) distances and should be lifted as we get into mid to late April.

6. More mud slide mitigation work to be done starting in May thru Sept in Washington. But this is a multi-year effort and also requires some Federal funding for parts of the work.

Looks like it will be an interesting Spring thru fall for the Empire Builders this year


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## montana mike (Mar 23, 2015)

Looking at the BNSF construction schedule for April it could be a slow month for the Empire Builders from eastern MT thru much of ND. A lot of construction ongoing and scheduled in that zone. Eastbound trains already are experiencing 2-3 hour delays as they trek thru this area (westbound about an hour). I guess it could be worse....when we think of the past 24 months of terrible timekeeping.


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## Ziv (Mar 23, 2015)

NW, I grew up on the Hi-Line and it seems like the Milk River flooded nearly every year in the 70's. We used to build rafts out of discarded materials and float from the west side of town to the east side. It was a great time and place to be a kid! The Missouri flooded as well but that was not in my neighborhood. But I remember the spillway at Fort Peck would be open and an incredible torrent would be pouring through it just about every spring. I don't think the reservoir even reached the spillway during the 90's, it was all dry land due to low water levels.

At that time the Empire Builder was still quite the "luxury" train and I got to ride it a couple times, albeit in coach most of the time. The one time I got to go sleeper it was like I was in a Cary Grant movie, it just seemed like there had to be a movie star on that train SOMEWHERE! LOL! My father worked as a brakeman for Great Northern, then as a conductor for Burlington Northern, except for a year where he was recovering from back surgery and worked for Amtrak. Not sure how that was worked out.



NW cannonball said:


> The point MM mentioned about "no likely flooding this year"
> That seems likely, no floods foreseen on the route this year, and it is a big plus. (what years this century didn't flood parts of the Hi-Line?)
> Hope a drier year helps BNSF with their upgrades this year. And the lower crude prices may temporarily take some traffic off the line - good? bad? for who?
> 
> Anyhow, hoping for a good construction season, but delays will be part of the game, no doubt.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

I live near MSP. I won't plan any trip on the EB that needs connections eastbound in CHI or westbound to connect to the Coast Starlight. I'll plan a layover at Seattle or Portland, or at Chicago.

That's just how it is. If I need connection East - I'll take the dog or the Megabus (or even an airplane) to CHI have to leave at zero-dark-whatever, but the EB won't let me connect eastbound from CHI.

Westbound - Connecting to the CS or the Cascades -- I'll ride the EB (like it) but have friends near SEA where can sleep over.

Same-day connection EB to anything? No.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

Hey man, I got 50 cousins out there on the Hi-Line - and they all say "every year is different" and "most years are worse than most years"

Floods, sure. Droughts - sure. Winters -- well, every winter is worse than the last.

Me, I'm trying to figure how the latest financier will maybe make it all better.

Yeah, there's a big-time investor pouring money in -- but over all -

Me just hoping the line keeps running -- seems probable - with delays.



Ziv said:


> NW, I grew up on the Hi-Line and it seems like the Milk River flooded nearly every year in the 70's. We used to build rafts out of discarded materials and float from the west side of town to the east side. It was a great time and place to be a kid! The Missouri flooded as well but that was not in my neighborhood. But I remember the spillway at Fort Peck would be open and an incredible torrent would be pouring through it just about every spring. I don't think the reservoir even reached the spillway during the 90's, it was all dry land due to low water levels.
> 
> At that time the Empire Builder was still quite the "luxury" train and I got to ride it a couple times, albeit in coach most of the time. The one time I got to go sleeper it was like I was in a Cary Grant movie, it just seemed like there had to be a movie star on that train SOMEWHERE! LOL! My father worked as a brakeman for Great Northern, then as a conductor for Burlington Northern, except for a year where he was recovering from back surgery and worked for Amtrak. Not sure how that was worked out.
> 
> ...


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## Ziv (Mar 23, 2015)

I hear you about every year in Montana being different. While I was growing up we had pretty good precipitation, both rain and snow. I remember driving down Highway 2 and snowbanks being 20 feet high on either side of the road. After I left in '82 I don't think they got more than 6" of precipitation in any year until the late 80's. It was horrible for the ranchers/farmers/boaters. I remember the marina kept building longer and longer boat ramps. Now that the reservoir is back up to full pool the bottom of the concrete boat ramp is probably 25 feet under water and 150 feet long under the water. My grandfather was buying hay from all over the west to keep his cattle fed and not just in the winter.

I don't know what is going on with the money stuff. My Mom's new ranch is in Rapelje, and there isn't a lot of outside money there, other than the Mormon Church looking to buy up land. Glasgow/Valley County is my home ground, and it is on the very western edge of what the Bakken may end up reaching. But now that the Bakken rig count is down to 102 rigs and Richland county has the only Bakken rigs in Montana, it will be a long time before any of that money/mayhem hits my town.



NW cannonball said:


> Hey man, I got 50 cousins out there on the Hi-Line - and they all say "every year is different" and "most years are worse than most years"
> Floods, sure. Droughts - sure. Winters -- well, every winter is worse than the last.
> Me, I'm trying to figure how the latest financier will maybe make it all better.
> Yeah, there's a big-time investor pouring money in -- but over all -
> Me just hoping the line keeps running -- seems probable - with delays.


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## Amfleeter (Mar 23, 2015)

You know, it's nice how BNSF actually gives a bit of a damn about the Empire Builder, and tries to give Amtrak heads up about work, and takes the EB seriously to a degree...... unlike the EB's northern cousin with CN.


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## montana mike (Mar 24, 2015)

Not looking good for BOTH #8's today. I wonder what happened to #8 leaving SEA last night, started out an hour late and is now continuing to lose time on its eastward journey. Meanwhile the delays keep creeping up thru MT and ND. The average delay is now approaching the BNSF estimate of 3 hours thru that stretch. #8 arrived in CHI yesterday just under 2 1/2 hours behind, all due to the delays thru MT/ND.

Sadly, I think I may have to rearrange my travels and forgo the increasingly slim chance to connect with the CL if this trend continues.


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## jfeucht (Mar 24, 2015)

montana mike said:


> Not looking good for BOTH #8's today. I wonder what happened to #8 leaving SEA last night, started out an hour late and is now continuing to lose time on its eastward journey. Meanwhile the delays keep creeping up thru MT and ND. The average delay is now approaching the BNSF estimate of 3 hours thru that stretch. #8 arrived in CHI yesterday just under 2 1/2 hours behind, all due to the delays thru MT/ND.
> 
> Sadly, I think I may have to rearrange my travels and forgo the increasingly slim chance to connect with the CL if this trend continues.


I'm actually on #8 right now. Train was delayed getting out of the yard at Seattle last night, something about a car being added. We lost a second hour waiting on a siding as a freight set out a car that was leaning.


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## jebr (Mar 24, 2015)

Actually, as of right now the connection could still be made quite reliably, even with the delays. I wish Amtrak would restore this connection...it appears to be able to be made reliably enough that it should be allowed.




Source


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## nemaihne (Mar 24, 2015)

Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 24, 2015)

nemaihne said:


> Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?


Yep, unless AGR allows a layover in PDX on your dime like this past year! 
It looks like another bad year for the Builder up on the Hi- Line!!


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## jebr (Mar 24, 2015)

nemaihne said:


> Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?


I'd keep it as is for now. Last year when they broke the connections AGR allowed an overnight (on the customer's dime) in order to make the connection in one redemption. If you're okay with that extra day, Amtrak should be able to ultimately get you to your destination.


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## willem (Mar 24, 2015)

> Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?


If I were in your place, I would not change the reservation yet, since buckets do not apply to an AGR trip. I might monitor the availability of the California Zephyr (by entering 8 as the number of travelers) and revisit the decision if availability drops.
You don't mention if an overnight in Portland would be onerous if allowed. It is possible that AGR will start allowing travelers to spend the night in Portland on their own dimes, and if that happens, you might want to leave a day earlier or arrive a day later.

In any case, this seems early to reschedule an August trip because of what might happen. If you were paying cash, it would be different.


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## montana mike (Mar 24, 2015)

jebr said:


> Actually, as of right now the connection could still be made quite reliably, even with the delays. I wish Amtrak would restore this connection...it appears to be able to be made reliably enough that it should be allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, missing the connection 5 times out of 30 tries I guess is better than this time last year when it was virtually a 100% miss. My concern is that the construction is just ramping up, with more job sites coming on line over the next two weeks.


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## benale (Mar 24, 2015)

We have a trip in June from LAX to Chi on 14 and 28. We are traveling to South Bend and we are taking 48 which leaves at 9:30, so barring any major delays we should make 48. The 14 to 28 connection is valid with only a little over an hour between trains, but the 28 to 48 is not,so we had to buy two coach tickets. It;s AGR from LA to Chicago. South Bend is still in the same zone as Chicago. I've tried several different AGR agents but no go. Interesting,if you leave from Portland or Seattle the 8-48 connection is valid,so it can't be about the timekeeping..


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 24, 2015)

The reason that the #8 SEA-CHI/#48 CHI- SOB connection is allowed is that you have to layover in SEA for a night on your dime!

If you use AGR Points you would have to do a One Zone Award on #14 from LAX-SEA, then a 2 Zone Award on #8/#48 from SEA-CHI-SOB.

Last year AGR allowed a layover on your dime in PDX, but when they went back to the Old Schedule for #8/#28 this went away! The Empire Builder is already off to a rough start OTP wise this year!

You may want to see if AGR will book a 2 Zone guaranteed award on #4 and #48 LAX-CHI-SOB, or #422 and #48 on the three days a week #422 runs from LAX- CHI.


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## montana mike (Mar 25, 2015)

#8 in MN now 3 1/2 hours late---arrrrgh. I wish my BNSF guy had been wrong, but it does indeed look like ND will once again be a challenge in 2015.

I guess I could always purchase or AGR a ticket for the following day out of CHI and cancel at the last minute if I miss my CL connection?


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## willem (Mar 25, 2015)

> The reason that the #8 SEA-CHI/#48 CHI- SOB connection is allowed is that you have to layover in SEA for a night on your dime!


I believe the point that benale was making is that LAX-CHI via 14 and 28 is a published route and PDX-SOB via 28 and 48 is a published route, but LAX-SOB via 14, 28, and 48 is not a published route. Since the 14-28 connection is guaranteed and the 28-48 connection is guaranteed, there is no reason other than the limitations of the booking system for 14-28-48 not to be available.


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## CHamilton (Mar 27, 2015)

North American Railroads Caught by Speed of Crude-Oil Collapse


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## EB-dependent (Mar 27, 2015)

It's unfortunate that BNSF can't take advantage of the short-term advantages of floodless dry spring in ND and lower than expected Bakken shipments to accelerate HI-line upgrades.

I'd take another hour delay on the EB now, if the infrastructure improvements cold go faster.

If only BNSF could move fast enough to take adavantage of the lower Bakken shipments this season. There's plenty of laid-off oil-workers in ND who would be happy to work for BNSF short-term.

Like "C Hamilton" posted link



> BNSF Railway Co., the railroad owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc., posted a 4.5 percent drop in petroleum products in the last four weeks after a gain of 12.4 percent last year.


Shipments down 4.5% in a month? after only plus 12.5% in a year? Ouch!

not that this will help the EB on-time much.

Expect - like MM posted - 2-4 hour delays, possible misconnects , yeah the same old story.


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## benale (Mar 28, 2015)

Jim Hudson, the 28-48 connection is valid from PDX, but not from California coming up on 14. It just doesn't make sense, but of course we are dealing with published routes for AGR. We just want to finish out our two zone roomette award on 48, which is in the same zone as Chicago, but multiple AGR agents won't let us do it. It's only $31 for two coach tickets to South bend, but I don't understand why we just can't continue on to SOB on our two zone award. Coming in on 4, 6 and 21,the connection is guaranteed. but not on 8/28, unless you leave from PDX or SEA.


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## montana mike (Apr 5, 2015)

Anyone know what happened to #7 in eastern MT this afternoon? It was chugging along, about 2 hours behind schedule (not bad considering it left CHI 2 hours late), but now has been stopped for the past several hours east of Malta, MT and Amtrak updated arrival time for Malta to be over 4 hours late now.

#8 going eastbound appears to still be making good time though.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 5, 2015)

Looks like problems at Glasgow, MT


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## pdxjim (Apr 5, 2015)

Hope you find out Mike. I am waiting for 7/27 in Essex. Email from Amtrak says nothing.

Jim


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## Agent (Apr 5, 2015)

Did the train stop or did the status updates stop coming in? There seems to be a problem with that tonight.


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## pdxjim (Apr 5, 2015)

Well, 7/27 left Havre. Glad I ate dinner at the Izaak Walton Inn since the diner will be long closed by the time it arrives in Essex. ETA at this point after 11pm.


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## montana mike (Apr 6, 2015)

At least it's moving again, now just under 4 hours late. Sorry it will arrive so late at Essex.


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## montana mike (Apr 6, 2015)

I see #7 in WA is about 4 1/2 hours late now (bummer), and #8 in MN is now running 3 hours late. The delays in line with what BNSF said these trains would experience going forward this Spring and Summer. Rats. I guess yesterdays on time arrival in CHI may have been an anomaly. I am off on my #8 adventure tomorrow. We shall see if I may my tenuous CL connection on the evening of the 8th.


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## willem (Apr 6, 2015)

> the 28-48 connection is valid from PDX, but not from California coming up on 14. It just doesn't make sense, but of course we are dealing with published routes for AGR. We just want to finish out our two zone roomette award on 48, which is in the same zone as Chicago, but multiple AGR agents won't let us do it. It's only $31 for two coach tickets to South bend, but I don't understand why we just can't continue on to SOB on our two zone award. Coming in on 4, 6 and 21,the connection is guaranteed. but not on 8/28, unless you leave from PDX or SEA.


On the FlyerTalk AGR forum, "AGR Insider" addressed this issue some time ago. (Sorry, I have no citation.) As I recall, he said that in a situation such as this, where the routing made sense but did not appear, a reader could send a private message to him and he would work to get the routing added to Arrow.

Probably it is too late for this trip, but someone who is a member at FlyerTalk could send the suggestion that connections from south of Portland to points east of Chicago via the Empire Builder be added as published routes.


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## oregon pioneer (Apr 6, 2015)

montana mike said:


> I see #7 in WA is about 4 1/2 hours late now (bummer), and #8 in MN is now running 3 hours late. The delays in line with what BNSF said these trains would experience going forward this Spring and Summer. Rats. I guess yesterdays on time arrival in CHI may have been an anomaly. I am off on my #8 adventure tomorrow. We shall see if I may my tenuous CL connection on the evening of the 8th.


Good luck, Mike! Looking forward to your "on-the-scene" reports.


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## George K (Apr 6, 2015)

Planning a round-the-country trip with D4 for spring 2016. I know no one has a crystal ball, but does BNSF still predict those types of delays for _next_ year?


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## pdxjim (Apr 6, 2015)

Terrific...bustitution from Pasco to PDX. We missed the BNSF maintenance window.


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## pdxjim (Apr 6, 2015)

Oh lovely. The crew knew in Spokane. I would have gone coach to Seattle and take Cascades to Portland. Now I get a 3 1/2 hour bus ride.

Jim


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## Palmetto (Apr 6, 2015)

George K said:


> Planning a round-the-country trip with D4 for spring 2016. I know no one has a crystal ball, but does BNSF still predict those types of delays for _next_ year?


Well, next year, the double tracking is going to be done between West Williston and West Snowden, so hang onto your hat. That, plus traffic levels, which we can't predict right now. Further east, delays will become less possible between Detroit Lakes and St. Paul due to double-tracking and putting in a lot of CTC which is beginning this year, AFAIK.


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## train rider (Apr 6, 2015)

Did the 7 from MKE to MSP on Thursday and was on time and the return trip on Sunday and was only 15 minutes late! The 7 was full with big numbers on and off at each station to MSP, where they did a total passenger turnover of over 300. Sunday was very light and my car had maybe 8 people in it -- other cars had more but everyone had plenty of room.


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## andersone (Apr 6, 2015)

Dinner at the Izaak Walton,,, MEMORABLE


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## pdxjim (Apr 6, 2015)

Yes it was! Chicken was great; huckleberry cobbler priceless!


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## Palmetto (Apr 6, 2015)

Do they still have the baked garlic in currant sauce? That really caused me a "problem" the next morning. hboy:  :excl: :excl:


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## montana mike (Apr 6, 2015)

Looks like #8/28 has departed quite late from SEA/PDX today-after the westbound #7/27 arrived over 4 hours late this afternoon. Does this mean that the extra train set has been pulled from this route?


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## NW cannonball (Apr 7, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> > Planning a round-the-country trip with D4 for spring 2016. I know no one has a crystal ball, but does BNSF still predict those types of delays for _next_ year?
> ...


Hadn't heard about double-track or siding projects between DLK and MSP. Good news, I guess.

I've almost always been asleep on that part of the EB route (maybe one very late Eastbound exception)


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## Palmetto (Apr 7, 2015)

Off topic, but the new track will allow for an easier extension of Northstar commuter rail service to St. CLoud, a goal that was part of the original plan, IINM.

There's a 10-mile stretch of single that's getting done this year.


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## montana mike (Apr 7, 2015)

Given the regular 2+ hour delays thru eastern ND almost every day now, BNSF desperately needs to get this done asap. Their construction schedule is full of both small and several significant projects from now thru early November.


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## TraneMan (Apr 7, 2015)

montana mike said:


> Looks like #8/28 has departed quite late from SEA/PDX today-after the westbound #7/27 arrived over 4 hours late this afternoon. Does this mean that the extra train set has been pulled from this route?


Yes, I've read else where the extra set has been removed. When, not sure when it took place.


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## pdxjim (Apr 7, 2015)

Palmetto: I did not see garlic on the menu. I tried the beef stroganoff and the pan fried chicken breast.. For breakfast, the huckleberry pancakes were wonderful.

Jim


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## mwmnp (Apr 7, 2015)

NW cannonball said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Well, next year, the double tracking is going to be done between West Williston and West Snowden, so hang onto your hat. That, plus traffic levels, which we can't predict right now. Further east, delays will become less possible between Detroit Lakes and St. Paul due to double-tracking and putting in a lot of CTC which is beginning this year, AFAIK.
> ...


This year in Minnesota, BNSF plans to reinstall the second main track between Big Lake and Becker that was taken out as part of a unwise cost-cutting move in the 80s. A little Farther north, they plan to, in effect, extend sidings between Little Falls and Lincoln to create a mostly double track line along what has always been a single track segment. Though there will still be roughly 10 miles, I think, of single track remaining, including the crossing of the Mississippi River in Little Falls. From what I've heard construction won't truly begin until late summer or early fall, which means if winter comes early this year, some of the work might have to be pushed into next year.


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## Palmetto (Apr 7, 2015)

To put it simply, by the end of the construction season of 2017--and if all goes according to plan--the BNSF is going to have a two main track, CTC railroad from Chicago to West Snowden, MT. No single track, and no more track warrants. It's not known as the Northern Transcon for nothing, I guess.


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## Gemuser (Apr 8, 2015)

>the BNSF is going to have a two main track, CTC railroad from Chicago to West Snowden, MT.

According to Google maps there is no such place as West Snowden MT! Can you tell me where its near?

Thanks


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## Palmetto (Apr 8, 2015)

Gemuser said:


> >the BNSF is going to have a two main track, CTC railroad from Chicago to West Snowden, MT.
> 
> According to Google maps there is no such place as West Snowden MT! Can you tell me where its near?
> 
> Thanks


That's interesting. I found "Snowden" on Bing Maps, though. Snowden is about 25 west of Williston, ND. Sorry about the confusion.


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## Gemuser (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks


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## benale (Apr 10, 2015)

Being persistent pays off. I wrote earlier that I could not get AGR to extend my two zone reward to South Bend from Chicago using 28. After many attempts I finally got an agent who said she would speak to a supervisor about adding that extra leg to the trip. It's not a published route, but you can transfer from 28 to 48 leaving Portland,but not from any point on 14. After numerous tries with AGR, I finally got what I wanted. It's only a short run,but we wanted to end our trip nicely,and the $31 I paid for the tickets can now be used for "point runs" during the remaining month of double points.


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## montana mike (Apr 11, 2015)

We are on our delayed journey on the Empire Builder today. So far so good. The Builder arrived in WFH ten minutes early this morning!! We still expect the slowdowns in ND, but keeping our fingers crossed for a reasonably decent arrival into CHI tomorrow.


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## willem (Apr 11, 2015)

> Being persistent pays off. I wrote earlier that I could not get AGR to extend my two zone reward to South Bend from Chicago using 28. After many attempts I finally got an agent who said she would speak to a supervisor about adding that extra leg to the trip. It's not a published route, but you can transfer from 28 to 48 leaving Portland,but not from any point on 14. After numerous tries with AGR, I finally got what I wanted. It's only a short run,but we wanted to end our trip nicely,and the $31 I paid for the tickets can now be used for "point runs" during the remaining month of double points.


Congratulations! I'm glad it worked out for you, and I'm glad that someone at AGR showed enough flexibility to take the reasonable action. May the pattern continue.

Earlier this year, someone noted that CHI-PDX-LAX-NOL-WAS is a published route. The AGR phone watch told me it could not be redeemed as a two-zone award. Alright, that made some sense. It could also not be redeemed as a three-zone award. Well, that might make sense, too. But then, I was told that it could only be redeemed as a two-zone award plus a three-zone award, with a break at LAX. I asked about a two-zone award CHI-ELP and a two-zone award ELP-WAS and was told that one of the legs was not a published route. (I forget which, but I checked at the time, and the information was correct.) This led to the situation where an AGR member could not redeem a published route because of the circle trip prohibition, but also could not redeem the published route in a reasonable, economical (my opinion) way.


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## willem (Apr 11, 2015)

> The Builder arrived in WFH ten minutes early this morning!! We still expect the slowdowns in ND, but keeping our fingers crossed for a reasonably decent arrival into CHI tomorrow.


I see you are now due in Saint Paul in under 30 minutes, and you will probably leave less than 2 hours late and maybe only 1.5 hours down. (I hope I haven't jinxed you.) Best of luck!


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## montana mike (Apr 11, 2015)

I am on the Builder that is still in MT. We arrive in MSP tomorrow AM. I am hoping that the slight decrease in construction efforts over the weekend will help speed us thru the trouble spots.


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## montana mike (Apr 11, 2015)

Trip Update: Arrived wolf Point about 35 minutes behind, BUT just as we left Wolf Point the conductor said major BNSF "freight issues" up ahead. We have been sitting just east of Wolf point for about 30 minutes with no further updates. Rats


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## acelafan (Apr 11, 2015)

montana mike said:


> Trip Update: Arrived wolf Point about 35 minutes behind, BUT just as we left Wolf Point the conductor said major BNSF "freight issues" up ahead. We have been sitting just east of Wolf point for about 30 minutes with no further updates. Rats


Maybe you'll get lucky but #8's timekeeping east of WPT has been losing time over the past 30 days. Average DP delay of WPT is 47 minutes late, and average AR delay into CHI is 1 hr, 47 minutes late. But it did get in 14 minutes early March 14th.












Hope you get through OK...enjoy the ride!


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## montana mike (Apr 11, 2015)

Thanks for the info! We just left Williston, now running about 1 hour and 10 minutes behind. Interesting observation as to why we are losing time today. Since it is a weekend the construction efforts are much curtailed--that's the good news, the bad news is BNSF is pushing more freights thru over the weekends because of the lower construction activities. ALL of our delays today have been to wait for westbound energy trains and two intermodals going west. One train was so slow it took almost 20 minutes to pass. I could have walked faster!!!

Oh, well. I am hoping that we can pick up a little time in MOT and then again some time in MSP tomorrow AM. Yes, you are spot on with the fact that we will indeed likely lose another hour plus in that wonderful Rugby to Fargo corridor overnight. I was wondering why the west bound EBs were losing only a small amount of time, yet the eastbound EBs were taking big hits. The conductor said that since there was no additional train set in SEA and PDX anymore it was imperative that BNSF get the westbound EBs thru faster than the eastbound trains. Interesting.



(hopefully I am still smiling tomorrow morning)


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## Palmetto (Apr 12, 2015)

2H25Min down at Staples, I see. I hope you do better on the CP, but I wouldn't hold my breath there, either


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## acelafan (Apr 12, 2015)

I was just looking, too. Your delay leaving DLK and SPL is about par for the course over the last 30 days. Hopefully it won't get much worse.


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## willem (Apr 12, 2015)

> 2H25Min down at Staples, I see. I hope you do better on the CP, but I wouldn't hold my breath there, either


I'm confused, but that's becoming a common condition. The Amtrak app tells me that train 8 left Staples today 3 hours 7 minutes late, after arriving 3 hours 6 minutes late. (Dixieland says it has fallen off the face of the earth after leaving Detroit Lakes, but I suspect that Amtrak's scheduled Sunday morning computer maintenance caused that.)

Perhaps the Sunday traffic will allow the train to make up some time and not get trapped behind Metra into Chicago. Best of luck!


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## George K (Apr 12, 2015)

Here's something I don't understand:




As you say, it left SPL about 3 hours late. But the list to the left says it'll only be about 1 hour 10 min late arriving in Chicago. Do they realistically think they can make up that much time?

Also, Metra traffic in Chicago on a Sunday should not be an issue. In late morning, early afternoons, the trains only run every hour or so.


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## Train2104 (Apr 12, 2015)

George K said:


> As you say, it left SPL about 3 hours late. But the list to the left says it'll only be about 1 hour 10 min late arriving in Chicago. Do they realistically think they can make up that much time?
> 
> Also, Metra traffic in Chicago on a Sunday should not be an issue. In late morning, early afternoons, the trains only run every hour or so.


As far as I tell, the estimates are extreme best case predictions using the "pure running time" schedule and some form of accelerated layover (at MSP). For someone boarding at a downline station, you'd rather have them show up and wait than miss the train.


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## willem (Apr 12, 2015)

George K said:


> Here's something I don't understand:
> 
> As you say, it left SPL about 3 hours late. But the list to the left says it'll only be about 1 hour 10 min late arriving in Chicago. Do they realistically think they can make up that much time?
> 
> Also, Metra traffic in Chicago on a Sunday should not be an issue. In late morning, early afternoons, the trains only run every hour or so.


You can see that it makes up over an hour by the time it gets to Saint Paul, and then it makes up not quite an hour all the way to Chicago. I assume it's a demonstration of where the padding has been inserted.


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## montana mike (Apr 12, 2015)

Now about 2 hours and 45 minutes late--rats. Almost all of the delays due to freight traffic too. It is going to be a nail biter to see if we make the CL this evening. Well, I will set up Plan C (driving all the way to DC) during my travels on the EB today. The EB just stopped east of St. Cloud, waiting for more freight traffic again!!!!! Arrrrgh.


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## neroden (Apr 12, 2015)

There's big schedule padding at MSP eastbound. It's a good place to put it; recovers some of the valuable MSP-CHI traffic.


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## montana mike (Apr 12, 2015)

Not looking good. Sitting in MSP, now over 10 minutes and they don't look like they are going anywhere soon. Still about 2 1/2 hours late. I would say my chances of making the CL connection are lowering by the minute now. I have taken this route many times and you need to allow for 8 hours between MSP and CHI. This is assuming all goes well. The conductor was saying that a lot of freight interference can be expected between MSP and MKE today--same story on CPR as bNSF, they push more frights on weekends since there is les construction going on.

C'est La Vie'. I have already looked into renting a car for what will be a long drive from CHI to VA, with an overnight somewhere in Indiana tonight likely. Darn

Finally left after spending around 20 minutes in MSP.....


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## jebr (Apr 12, 2015)

Where in VA do you have to be? Might be worth seeing if a rebook on the LSL to a NER is possible.


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## willem (Apr 12, 2015)

In a perfect world, you probably would have left only 10 minutes earlier. In this world, that doesn't help as you sit looking at the platform and wait for movement.

The ever-optimistic Julie expects you to arrive in Chicago less than 2 hours late, which would even give you time to swing through the Metropolitan Lounge. It is not much cushion, though.

Once upon a time, we were bustituted from MSP to CHI and the bus arrived at Union Station five minutes before the scheduled departure of the Capitol Limited. As it turned out, they apparently held the train, because it left about 20 minutes late. In retrospect, I wished I had helped more fellow passengers transfer rather than being on board by the scheduled departure, but I didn't know if the train would leave on time regardless or not.


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## oregon pioneer (Apr 15, 2015)

montana mike said:


> Not looking good. Sitting in MSP, now over 10 minutes and they don't look like they are going anywhere soon. Still about 2 1/2 hours late. I would say my chances of making the CL connection are lowering by the minute now. I have taken this route many times and you need to allow for 8 hours between MSP and CHI. This is assuming all goes well. The conductor was saying that a lot of freight interference can be expected between MSP and MKE today--same story on CPR as bNSF, they push more frights on weekends since there is les construction going on.
> 
> C'est La Vie'. I have already looked into renting a car for what will be a long drive from CHI to VA, with an overnight somewhere in Indiana tonight likely. Darn
> 
> Finally left after spending around 20 minutes in MSP.....


Mike, it looks like you squeaked by. Inquiring minds want to know how it all turned out for you. And what you see down the road ahead, for performance on the Hi-line.


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## montana mike (Apr 16, 2015)

Yup, we arrived in CHI, walked into the Metro lounge to find out what gate we needed to go to and they immediately announced boarding for the CL. So no real time to spare--whew!! We made up almost an hour from MSP to CHI-likely the result of it being a Sunday. We took a fairly big risk to book the two trains, but since most times in the past several weeks the connection worked I figured we would give it a try. The CL ride was fine-arriving in WAS the next day 24 minutes behind schedule.


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## George K (Apr 16, 2015)

Glad you made it OK, Mike. I was watching the EB progress all day Sunday, and once you hit MKE, I knew that you were going to be OK.


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## oregon pioneer (Apr 17, 2015)

I'm also glad you made it. Now that you've crossed that hurdle, may the rest of the trip be pleasant and smooth!


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## montana mike (Apr 18, 2015)

Saturday: On our way back to WFH now on the EB. All was going smoothly until Williston. While we were running about 50 minutes late I was confidant at least some of that delay could be made up before we reached WFH. HOWEVER, the conductor just got on the PA system and said BNSF has shut down the track just east of Williston for "unspecified reasons" and we could be in for a lengthy delay. If anyone hears what the reason for the delay is let me know!

Never a dull moment.

:-(


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## montana mike (Apr 18, 2015)

After a 2 hour hold in Williston we resumed our journey (now about 3 hours behind). A "track misalignment" issue was the problem--whatever that is. Looking like a very late arrival in WFH tonight. Now stopped just outside of Wolf Point waiting for more eastbound freights to pass us by, likely adding to our delayed status. Since there is no "protect" consist in PDX and SEA for tomorrow's eastbound Builders it appears very likely that numbers 8/28 will begin their journey on a late note, since our car attendant said they need at least 4 hours to turn around the EBs in SEA and PDX and that will not likely be the case.


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## montana mike (Apr 18, 2015)

Interesting Footnote: since departing Williston we have maintained a top speed of 60 mph, far below the normal track speed of 79 mph. Since we are now 3 1/2 hours late, this lower speed is not going to allow us to make up any time.


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## Palmetto (Apr 18, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Sounds like a temporary schedule adjustment is called for owing to the construction delays.


Please allow me to repeat myself.


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## acelafan (Apr 19, 2015)

Looks like your #7 made up some time with the padding at Spokane, but of course that's after you left at Whitefish. Hope you had a good ride nonetheless.


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## montana mike (Apr 19, 2015)

If we took away the 2 1/2 hour delay caused by the track alignment issue, the freight delays amounted to only 20 minutes or so. BNSF appears to be trying to do what they can to help with the turnaround of 7/27 in SEA and PDX. The service on my train was excellent as it usually is. And we always enjoy meeting folks from all over the country during dining hours. I just wish we could arrive in WFH close to the scheduled time. The last 4 times we have taken the EB our delays have ranged from 3 to 12 hours. I know this delay was unforeseen but frustrating nevertheless. Of my four segments, if one was going to have a big hiccup, the last segment at least only damaged the amount of sleep we got last night. I was very pleased to see how CSX had gotten their act together on the tracks used by the CL-both trains were very close to being on time.


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## montana mike (Apr 29, 2015)

Both east and west bound Empire Builders experienced 3-4 hour delays as they went thru eastern MT and ND today. My BNSF guy is looking into whether this was a one day issue, or perhaps if this will be the norm. He cautioned that a lot of construction is scheduled for those areas from now thru October, so multi-hour arrival delays may indeed become more common.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm sure the crack Empire Builder Management has contingency plans ready to go back to the " temporary" schedule from the last Clusterflub involving delays on the Hi- Line!


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