# Why doesn't Amtrak extend the Auto Train to NYC area?



## SandraW (May 16, 2013)

Why doesn't Amtrak extend the Auto Train to New York City area? Is there some technical reason not to?

A lot of New Yorkers driver 4 hours just to catch the Auto Train in Virginia.... there must be a lot of NY-FL traffic, no?


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## the_traveler (May 16, 2013)

Yes there is. The tunnels in Baltimore on the NEC (and not really relevant to this thread, the tunnels into NYP) will not fit Superliners. (Thats why any train going into NYP operate with single level equipment!) Also there is also the issue of real estate needed for a terminal.


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## Alexandria Nick (May 16, 2013)

Also, its right south of the point where you can funnel all the car traffic from a swath ranging from Cleveland to Boston without causing large numbers of potential customers to doubleback to get to the Auto Train hub. Population on the I-95 corridor drops pretty hard after Lorton. Yeah you still have the extreme DC suburbs, Fredericksburg, and Richmond, but those are tiny potatoes compared to what's North.


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## John Bobinyec (May 16, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> Yes there is. The tunnels in Baltimore on the NEC (and not really relevant to this thread, the tunnels into NYP) will not fit Superliners. (Thats why any train going into NYP operate with single level equipment!) Also there is also the issue of real estate needed for a terminal.


Why would the train have to travel on the NEC through Baltimore and Washington? Surely there's another route that could be taken to avoid those tunnels.

jb


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## MikefromCrete (May 16, 2013)

The train's present terminal allows for an overnight trip without stretching out the travel. As someone said, Lorton serves as the bottom of the funnel to allow people from all over the Northeast to access the train. That's also why the train terminates in Sanford and not Miami. Easy road access to the state's top attractions.

As an alternate the train could use CSX north of Washington, but I that would also have height problems with a different set of tunnels in Baltimore. The Auto Train has worked well for more than 40 years as both a private enterprise and part of Amtrak. No need to mess up a proven winner.


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## afigg (May 16, 2013)

John Bobinyec said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Yes there is. The tunnels in Baltimore on the NEC (and not really relevant to this thread, the tunnels into NYP) will not fit Superliners. (Thats why any train going into NYP operate with single level equipment!) Also there is also the issue of real estate needed for a terminal.
> ...


When this question of extending the AT north to NJ/NYC comes up, the focus is typically on the NEC and the Baltimore tunnels. Which is mis-directed, because if the clearance was there for the car carriers, the AT would run on CSX. But from what I have observed, the clearance issues for the NEC are not just the Baltimore tunnels, but any number of overpass bridges and other obstructions to NJ as well as the catenary.

As for CSX, the first clearance obstruction north of Lorton is the Virginia Avenue Tunnel in DC. Which is why the AT station was located in Lorton VA, not Maryland between DC and Baltimore, which would have captured I-70 traffic & been closer to PA, NJ, NYC, New England. CSX will rebuild the Virginia Avenue Tunnel by 2015/2016 to provide doublestack clearance for 2 through tracks. CSX will have clearance for double stack container trains to the south side of Baltimore by 2015/2016. However, the clearance restrictions of the Howard Street tunnel in Baltimore and the CSX tracks through northern MD and Delaware will remain. The FRA has studied replacing the Howard Street tunnel with a Plate H clearance tunnel to run parallel to the proposed B&P tunnel replacement, but CSX does not appear that interested in spending a billion dollars on a new tunnel in Baltimore. If the feds and Maryland were to pay the lion's share of the cost for a new freight tunnel in Baltimore, that might change CSX's mind. But in the foreseeable future, there is no viable route for a AT with tall autoracks through Baltimore and northeastern MD.

There is a lengthy 2011 FRA report titled "BALTIMORE’S RAILROAD NETWORK: ANALYSIS AND RECOMMENDATIONS" on the Baltimore tunnels and replacing the B&P tunnel available on the FRA website which will tell most more than they wanted to know about the clearance restrictions in the Baltimore region. Google should turn it up.


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## xyzzy (May 16, 2013)

There is a question of accommodating a second AT at the Sanford terminal. Unless someone wants to spend big money there to increase capacity, a second NE-Florida AT would have to be scheduled around the times when the Sanford terminal is currently quiet. This was an issue in 1973 when the original AT intermittently operated a second daily departure. Their answer was an 8 pm departure with an 11:30am arrival at both ends.

But this raises another question. In 1973 AT had a 15:30 running time, at least in theory. These days the AT is booked for a 17:30 running time. Add 2.5 hours for the train to get somewhere north of Wilmington, and you're looking at 20 hours running time. Amtrak would not be able to turn around the equipment for a same-day return, so now we're talking about a lot more cars.

And this assumes that Amtrak's preference would be NY-Florida and not something like St Louis-LA. (I didn't mention resurrecting Louisville-FL.)


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## NE933 (May 16, 2013)

Decades ago I imagined a fantasy routing of the St. George ferry terminal on Staten Island's former B&O trackage as a possible 'Northern' Auto Train terminal. Trains would thread via the north shore and over the Arthur Kill, which ultimately intersects the Corridor just north of Linden. Problem here is that any and all physical track connections are long gone.

Then I read someplace Amtrak had contemplated a 'Northern' Auto Train, using then surplus yard space somewhere near Seacaucus or Jersey City for a terminal. It obviously never got beyond the talk stage.


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## dlagrua (May 16, 2013)

Anything would be possible if Amtrak had unlimited funds but they don't. I guess that you could even build an Autotrain with single level cars and single level auto rack cars (if you wanted to) but two things stand in the way of doing this.

1. The Autotrain is already one of Amtrak's busiest and most profitable routes.

2. Even if the funds were available to build a single level Autotrain, there are so many projects with higher priorities that first need to be addressed.

In summation, you won't see the Autotrain leaving from the NY/NJ area anytime soon.


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## jebr (May 17, 2013)

Outside of the technical limitations, you'd have to find quite a bit of space, pretty close to the railroad tracks, to fit the terminal. The terminal would have to fit the number of cars traveling down the line plus room to load, which may not be easily found near the tracks, and it would almost certainly be pricey. You'd also have to place it somewhere that's relatively accesible off of I-95, I'm guessing, otherwise people will just ignore it and it won't make sense.

There's also the "problem" that there isn't much extra equipment, additional equipment is costly, and the Auto Train is currently running well as-is (so there isn't much motivation to try something new to add additional revenue or improve the train's economics.) While it would be nice to have the auto train all the way up the NEC to provide more options, I don't see it feasable in the forseeable future.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 17, 2013)

I think timing is another big reason why moving the Auto Train won't work. Or, to look at it another way, the timing of the Auto Train is one of the reasons it's so successful.

For many people, taking the Auto Train saves time. Driving from Lorton to Sanford would take about 12 hours. If you left at Lorton at 2:00 pm, you'd arrive in Florida at two in the morning, not counting stops for rest and meals - for a typical family, it could easily be 3:00 or 4:00 AM. You'd be too tired and cranky to enjoy Florida the next day.

However, if you arrive on the Auto Train, you roll into your car that morning after a good night's sleep on the train, and no time is wasted. So, anyone who can get to Lorton by 2:00 pm can save time on their drive to Florida.

If you're an early riser, and you can get your family out of bed, you could easily get 6-8 hours of driving time in and still get to Lorton on time. So, anyone within 400 miles or so of Lorton can get to the station on time. That easily includes everybody from as far west as Pittsburgh or Cleveland, north to NYC, even as far north as Boston if you're an early riser.

If you live outside that radius, you basically can't get to Lorton on time. Sure, you could move the station north, but that would just move the loading time earlier in the day. If you move the station 4 hours north, you've saved some people some driving time, but you also have to move the loading time 4 hours earlier. So, everyone still has to leave home at the same time.

So, the AT's schedule isn't just based on a population radius, it's a time radius. Moving the station north or west wouldn't help serve a larger population, or help anyone get to Florida any faster.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 17, 2013)

I live in south florida and the only reason I don't use the auto train, is because it stops so short of everything in the NE. Actually i would prefer if there was an auto train that went to the Midwest (CHI) - I understand the technical and financial reasons - just adding it to my "perfect world" Amtrak list!


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## VentureForth (May 17, 2013)

To tack onto DPR's timing issue, it also allows for sufficient time to turn the train around for operation in the opposite direction. When you get there around 9 AM, that assumes most folks are off the train and it is ready to be serviced by 11 AM. That really only gives the train 3 hours for a full inspection & maintenance before loading begins at 2 PM. When the train is late, it eats up into this buffer, but it can still be turned. If it's really late, it may take a day or two of perfect running before the schedule can be restored.



MrMattyMatt said:


> I live in south florida and the only reason I don't use the auto train, is because it stops so short of everything in the NE. Actually i would prefer if there was an auto train that went to the Midwest (CHI) - I understand the technical and financial reasons - just adding it to my "perfect world" Amtrak list!


So not driving nearly 12 hours in the middle of the night doesn't do anything for ya?


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## D.P. Roberts (May 17, 2013)

MrMattyMatt said:


> I live in south florida and the only reason I don't use the auto train, is because it stops so short of everything in the NE. Actually i would prefer if there was an auto train that went to the Midwest (CHI) - I understand the technical and financial reasons - just adding it to my "perfect world" Amtrak list!


Yeah, I think it would be great if there was a second Auto Train in the midwest. If you take a 900 mile / overnight route as ideal, both financially and schedule-wise, draw a line 900 miles northwest from Orlando & you probably end up somewhere near Louisville or Cincinnati.

Assuming people aren't willing to drive more than 4-6 hours before getting to a station at 2:00 pm, that still opens up an Auto Train market to Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Columbus, Cleveland - basically, most of the populated parts of the midwest, most of whom have too long of a drive to make the existing Auto Train work for them.

Of course, Amtrak has no lines that go anywhere near a route like this. There's an Amtrak station in Cincinnati, but no routes from there to Florida. I have no idea if there are tracks Amtrak could use to make a route like this work.


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## Alexandria Nick (May 17, 2013)

Not to take it down that road again, but I've long thought the real jewel would be something like San Diego/Oakland/Sacramento - Jacksonville/Rocky Mount/DC (pick one on each side of country).


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## ed (May 17, 2013)

D.P. Roberts said:


> MrMattyMatt said:
> 
> 
> > I live in south florida and the only reason I don't use the auto train, is because it stops so short of everything in the NE. Actually i would prefer if there was an auto train that went to the Midwest (CHI) - I understand the technical and financial reasons - just adding it to my "perfect world" Amtrak list!
> ...


There was once a mid-west Autotrain. It departed from Louisville KY and made its way South through Nashville, The year was 1977 and the AutoTrain company business was booming. Dr Eugene Garfield, the AT CEO decided that a midwesten route for the Autotrain would be the next logical step in the companies expansion plans. Passenger traffic on the Lorton to Sanford run was exploding and it was time to grow the business. By this time Amtrak was well on its way to becoming the exclusive US passenger rail carrier and the AT company made a proposal to have the Floridian carry the AutoTrain from Louisville KY to Sanford Fl. The Floridian route originated in Chicago and headed South through Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, through southern Georgia to Jacksonville and then want on the current AT route to Sanford. The A/T coupled onto the Floridian at a special yard facility west of Louiavillw. I believe that the yard is still there and used for classification, . The Midwest Autotrain was very different in that the Floridian made stops along the way. It was not successful as this resulted in a long trip to Florida like 23 hours. IMO the Midwest Autotrain was improperly run as part of an existing passenger train and some sections of track along the old L&N freight route only allowed speeds of 35-40 mph.

This new AutoTrain routel proved a disaster for both the Floridian and the AutoTrain Corporation. After only 8 months of operation the AT midwest route was abandoned. Shortly thereafter the AutoTrain Corporation declared bankruptsy and within two years the Amtrak Floridan was also gone.

So why did this all happen?

First off the AutoTrain Corporation made arrangements for Amtrak to carry it. As a result Amtrak stopped running the Floridian into downtown Louisville Union station and instead diverted through a large frieght yard outside of town to pick up the AT consist. It posed problems and Amtrak lost ridership from Lousiville because of this. Secondly the switching operations now posed by the AutoTrain at Lousiville and Sanford added two hours to the already long schedule and made the Floridian perpetually late. Last of all the track conditions on the former L & N route had deteriorated to the point where a horrific derailment caused loss of much AutoTrains RR equipment. By the end of 1977 the AT midwest route was gone and Amtrak rerouted the Floridan through Atlanta as a final attempt to keep the route viable. The new route through caused more lack of ridership and eventually was abandoned. Within a year of this AutoTrain corporation also ceased to exist.

The question remains as to whether the AT accommodation idea killed the Floridian or whether the reroute through Atlanta was the primary cause


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## railiner (May 18, 2013)

ed said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > MrMattyMatt said:
> ...


While your history of the Midwest Autotrain sounds right, I am wondering about that "reroute thru Atlanta" of the Floridian you stated. I cannot recall the Floridian ever going thru Atlanta. Most of its reroutes that I recall were between Chicago and Louisville thru the years due to poor track conditions in various parts of Indiana.


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## chakk (May 18, 2013)

SandraW said:


> Why doesn't Amtrak extend the Auto Train to New York City area? Is there some technical reason not to?
> A lot of New Yorkers driver 4 hours just to catch the Auto Train in Virginia.... there must be a lot of NY-FL traffic, no?


This was discussed in an earlier thread. If the route length is much longer than present, the train could not do a trip within 24 hours, and thus require an additional set of equipment. With 50% more equipment, Amtrak would be very unlikely to get 50% more passengers, and so the revenue to expense ratio would go down, not up.


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