# Return to Denver Union Station



## lepearso (Nov 16, 2013)

Yesterday I received the newsletter for the Denver Union Station project.

I see that the hotel facility will open in the summer of 2014 and the transit center will open in the spring of 2014. But here's what threw me: they mentioned that in February they will "complete the remaining track work following Amtrak’s move out of their temporary station and platform".

Does this mean that Amtrak is planning to return to Denver Union Station in February? I did not expect them to move back so soon.

Click here to view the article.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 16, 2013)

Sure sounds like it. That is great news. The temporary station was OK, but getting back to a station accessible from LoDo is a huge plus.

That new Union Station trainshed is going to have to be an acquired taste for me. It just does not seem to compliment the old station at all, and in fact appears to visually overwhelm it. As a structural engineer, I recognize that am totally lacking in aesthetic taste (just ask any architect), but this design is a head scratcher. I've grown to kind of sort of maybe like the Cira Center behind 30th Street Station in Philadelphia (also a stark contrast in styles), so perhaps the new Denver Union Station will grow on me: or, perhaps not.


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## the_traveler (Nov 16, 2013)

I didn't know a train shed was included in the remodel. To me, it doesn't make sense.

Yes, there would be protection from the elements. One reason it doesn't make sense to me, just on the sounds of it, is that part of the CZ extends next to Coors Field next to the station and next to the platform. Would this view be blocked? :huh:


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 16, 2013)

The train shed is absolutely hideous, what were they thinking?


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## the_traveler (Nov 16, 2013)

I missed the link before. I agree the train shed is hideous!

I always thought one of the reasons for them was to protect you from the elements. But with most of the center open, including the major part over the tracks where the train(s) and buses will be, what good is it? :huh: Maybe if it looked better I might change my mind. As it is, I don't see any good - except to add to the cost!


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## Ispolkom (Nov 16, 2013)

Are those jackalopes in the first picture of the Crawford Hotel?


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## Texan Eagle (Nov 16, 2013)

That station shed seems to be inspired by Denver's iconic airport structure-







Sorry for the ignorance- are thee any plans to start local commuter service out of Denver? All those tracks are surely not for just one daily California Zephyr, are they?


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## Golden grrl (Nov 16, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> That new Union Station trainshed is going to have to be an acquired taste for me. It just does not seem to compliment the old station at all, and in fact appears to visually overwhelm it. ...this design is a head scratcher.


Ever since Denver moved its airport from intown way out east to Kansas, it's been a real pain to get to and from Denver International Airport. Cab fare to downtown can run over $75. Bus fare, for a very long ride, taking about 45 minutes and costing $10-11 from downtown. Finally, the city has gotten around to construction of a 22.8 mile light rail system from town to DIA. When the light rail eventually is finished in 2016, the combined Union Station transit center will be the gateway point for a lot of tourist [train, plane, even commuter transit] traffic for downtown Denver. So my guess is that the canoopy is meant to_ echo_ the architectural look at the other end of the light rail line at DIA. For comparison, see http://www.flydenver.com/abouttheprogramdetail?URI=tcm:8-47202&PURI=tcm:8-47069 and look especially at the rendering captioned "View of plaza - looking southwest"

For another view of how the new train hall canopy will look from a street level, see the photo of the canopy at night at http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/dus_11

At that link, also notice the statement that "Amtrak is scheduled to start operations under the canopy in February 2014."


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## Nathanael (Nov 16, 2013)

lepearso said:


> Yesterday I received the newsletter for the Denver Union Station project.
> 
> I see that the hotel facility will open in the summer of 2014 and the transit center will open in the spring of 2014. But here's what threw me: they mentioned that in February they will "complete the remaining track work following Amtraks move out of their temporary station and platform".
> 
> Does this mean that Amtrak is planning to return to Denver Union Station in February?


Or earlier! If they're going to complete the trackwork in February, Amtrak probaly has to move in January! The final section of trackwork requires demolition of Amtrak's current platform and will probably take quite a while.



> I did not expect them to move back so soon.


"January or February" was the scuttlebutt from Denver Infill Blog. The new platforms are basically ready for Amtrak now, with only a little finishing work needed.
The catch here is that Amtrak can't move back in until large portions of the updates of the historic building are finished (enough to provide ticketing, baggage handling, and a waiting room). The historic building work is being done by the hotel company, and I have heard no updates whatsoever on the status of the work the hotel company is doing. This is why I am suspicious. If the hotel company falls behind on its schedule, then Amtrak will not move back on schedule.

The companies doing the trackwork would like to get Amtrak moved ASAP so that they can finish the trackwork, but the hotel company is completely separate, so...


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## bretton88 (Nov 16, 2013)

Per the link given a few posts above, the interior of the station is supposed to be fully open for business in "summer 2014" so Amtrak will probably have its area functional earlier than that.


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## SubwayNut (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes Denver is about to start running 3 (with a few more in the works, some DMU) new electric! Commuter Rail lines including the east corridor that will go to the airport (and probably be faster than driving downtown)

I can't wait!


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## Nathanael (Nov 16, 2013)

FWIW I found an updated floor plan for the ground floor of the station (in an odd location). It looks like Amtrak will be in the south wing, minimizing the drive for the baggage trolleys.

http://unionstationindenver.com/floor-plans/


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## PaulM (Nov 16, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> I missed the link before. I agree the train shed is hideous!
> 
> I always thought one of the reasons for them was to protect you from the elements. But with most of the center open, including the major part over the tracks where the train(s) and buses will be, what good is it? :huh: Maybe if it looked better I might change my mind. As it is, I don't see any good - except to add to the cost!


From the pictures in the OP's link, it looks like there are standard umbrella type what-cha-call-its covering the platforms underneath the open center.

I for one can't wait to see it in full operation and will postpone judgment regarding its hideousness until then. My impression from the pictures was that Denver is presenting itself as a world class city, distancing itself from the cheap, shabby, woe is me, we're bankrupt mentality so prevalent everywhere today.


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## boxcarsyix (Nov 16, 2013)

Not only is the train shed is hideous, It dwarfs the building depriving the pax of a view of a classic, grand station.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

The history of the "train shed" is long and stupid. Originally it was going to be a full train shed. The architects were enamoured of the Teflon cover like that at the airport for some reason (I think the Teflon is hideous).

Complaints about the view of the station led to the really bizarre design with the hole in the middle. Complaints about the non-functionality of this for covering the passengers led to the separate, normal canopies on the middle platforms... but the architects just wouldn't give up their dream of a Teflon train shed.

So we get this. Oh well, whatever. The view of the station is all right and the ground level design is nice. If people get really sick of the trainshed maybe in 20 years it will be taken down and replaced with more conventional canopies, or replaced with a glass trainshed or something.

I'm just glad the track-and-platform design is OK. It's probably the best that could be done since the through tracks were cut decades ago, though a through-track design would clearly have been better.


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## Shawn Ryu (Nov 17, 2013)

Texan Eagle said:


> That station shed seems to be inspired by Denver's iconic airport structure-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The entire renovation was about preparing the station to handle commuter trains. So yes.

There will be a direct link to the airport now, via commuter rail.

Once finished navigating Denver without a car just got 10000 times easier.

And honestly, who cares about the train shed? I think it looks nice. But yea it does cover the grand station building.

Too bad Amtrak has no other routes to serve from Denver.


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## dabrilloman (Nov 17, 2013)

Alright then, who gets actual Amtrak service first...Denver Union Station or St. Paul Union Depot...place your bets!


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## railiner (Nov 17, 2013)

In the link that Golden grrl included to the RTD fastracks site, they mentioned that when RTD moves into the new 22 bay underground bus terminal at Union Station, RTD will be closing their current Market Street Station. I was wondering what they would do with that property....make it into a public parking garage or perhaps just demolish it?

Also wondering if Greyhound would be moving their diminished operation into Union Station bus terminal also....seems their current "white elephant" terminal at 19th and Arapahoe is a waste of a space that was designed for a much larger operation back in 1976.....


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## guest (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, architect here. First, I'll mention that I am no fan of tensile structures (aka fancy tents) such as this, and the one found at the airport, but it does serve a purpose. Having the big opening in the middle will make it healthier, safer, and marginally cleaner than a full shed would have been (I expect St. Paul to be a hell-on-earth, much like the platfrom area at CHI). If this is to be run like many Amtrak stations, with limited access to the platforms (see: CHI, SAC, PDX, SEA), most people will have little-to-no time to gaze at the station from trainside. The view of the station will be from the street side, good or bad.

Frankly, Denver loves their tensile structures, and so I say let them have it. It's fine, it's kind of interesting-looking, it is functional (sun shade, protection from snow and rain), and there ARE coverings on the platform to shelter passengers without enclosing all the diesel exhaust. And these structures have a limited lifespan, so in 20 years or so when the thing is getting tatty, it will be replaced by something that hopefully will be a bit more substantial in its construction and less intrusive in its design.


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## the_traveler (Nov 17, 2013)

guest said:


> If this is to be run like many Amtrak stations, with limited access to the platforms (see: CHI, SAC, PDX, SEA), most people will have little-to-no time to gaze at the station from trainside.


The big difference between those listed and DEN is that the others are (or are mainly) the terminus of the route, so passengers will be getting off the train and then departing the platform. They may not look around at the train shed and or station from trainside, Denver on the other hand is in the middle of the route and a long stop. 
Many passengers will get off the CZ to stretch their legs or even look at the station from either trainside or enter the station during the 1 hour stop. Except for the 1 time that I actually ended my trip in Denver, I don't believe I actually ever saw the front of the station in real life. (Only from photos or on TV.) All my views of the station were from the inside of the station or from the platform - now (or soon to be) hidden!


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## Nathanael (Nov 17, 2013)

railiner said:


> In the link that Golden grrl included to the RTD fastracks site, they mentioned that when RTD moves into the new 22 bay underground bus terminal at Union Station, RTD will be closing their current Market Street Station. I was wondering what they would do with that property....make it into a public parking garage or perhaps just demolish it?


It's being demolished and I believe the current plan is to sell the property. I suppose it might not be demolished if a buyer wanted it intact. RTD wants to get rid of it.


> Also wondering if Greyhound would be moving their diminished operation into Union Station bus terminal also....seems their current "white elephant" terminal at 19th and Arapahoe is a waste of a space that was designed for a much larger operation back in 1976.....


Greyhound, last I heard, has no plans to move. And apparently they were asked back when the Union Station bus terminal was being designed, and they declined to participate. This isn't to say that they won't move some time in the future -- there are spare bays in the new bus station which Greyhound could use -- but they have no *plans* to do so.
They probably should. Most (though not all) of their routes *already* loop around to the Denver Amtrak station, and will presumably continue to do so.



guest said:


> Okay, architect here. First, I'll mention that I am no fan of tensile structures (aka fancy tents) such as this, and the one found at the airport, but it does serve a purpose. Having the big opening in the middle will make it healthier, safer, and marginally cleaner than a full shed would have been (I expect St. Paul to be a hell-on-earth, much like the platfrom area at CHI).


St. Paul doesn't have a trainshed. Look at Google Maps. St. Paul has a relatively narrow concourse (bridge) sticking out over the tracks, and it doesn't even go over one of the Amtrak tracks.



> If this is to be run like many Amtrak stations, with limited access to the platforms (see: CHI, SAC, PDX, SEA),


It won't be. The station design features pedestrian circulation around the south end of the platforms, across a bridge along the north end of the trainshed, and through a tunnel at the center of the trainshed. There will be no access control at all for most of the platforms (which are for commuter rail) -- and I doubt Amtrak is going to waste personnel to block people from all three access points to the Amtrak platform. So the platform will be open-access.

(Amtrak has a separate "servicing platform" on the other side of its track, with only one access point, which will presumably be restricted-access, a bit like the setup in Chicago with separate passenger and baggage platforms.)



> And these structures have a limited lifespan, so in 20 years or so when the thing is getting tatty, it will be replaced by something that hopefully will be a bit more substantial in its construction and less intrusive in its design.


Yeah, that's what I thought.


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## Nathanael (Nov 17, 2013)

Yeeargh, how did my quotes get messed up again?


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## afigg (Nov 17, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> The catch here is that Amtrak can't move back in until large portions of the updates of the historic building are finished (enough to provide ticketing, baggage handling, and a waiting room). The historic building work is being done by the hotel company, and I have heard no updates whatsoever on the status of the work the hotel company is doing. This is why I am suspicious. If the hotel company falls behind on its schedule, then Amtrak will not move back on schedule.
> 
> The companies doing the trackwork would like to get Amtrak moved ASAP so that they can finish the trackwork, but the hotel company is completely separate, so...


According to the FasTracks What's New at Union Station webpage: "Amtrak is scheduled to start operations under the canopy in February 2014 and RTD's commuter rail lines, including the line to Denver International Airport, are scheduled to start operations in 2016.*"* The bus terminal has a set May date. It could be that Amtrak moves back to Union Station, but with some temporary facilities or arrangements for the waiting room and baggage handling. There will be a 2+ year gap to the start of service on the regional rail lines, so Amtrak will likely have lots of room for people to wait until then.


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## PaulM (Nov 17, 2013)

afigg said:


> ... RTD's commuter rail lines, including the line to Denver International Airport, are scheduled to start operations in 2016.*"* ... There will be a 2+ year gap to the start of service on the regional rail lines, so Amtrak will likely have lots of room for people to wait until then.zz


I'm pretty sure the two year wait will only be for the airport (east) line. There are already 4 lines in operation - Mineral (south), Lincoln (southeast), 9 Mile (SE) and Golden (west); and I'm sure they will move to the new station as soon as possible.

When you say commuter rail, you must be referring to light rail. I've heard mention of commuter rail (similar to MARC, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, etc), but I'm sure that is even further out in the future. Denver needs a commuter rail line between Ft. Collins and at least Colorado Springs.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 17, 2013)

PaulM said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > ... RTD's commuter rail lines, including the line to Denver International Airport, are scheduled to start operations in 2016.*"* ... There will be a 2+ year gap to the start of service on the regional rail lines, so Amtrak will likely have lots of room for people to wait until then.zz
> ...


The line to Denver International will be true commuter rail, not light rail.


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## Sactobob (Nov 17, 2013)

PaulM said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > ... RTD's commuter rail lines, including the line to Denver International Airport, are scheduled to start operations in 2016.*"* ... There will be a 2+ year gap to the start of service on the regional rail lines, so Amtrak will likely have lots of room for people to wait until then.zz
> ...


 The four lines mentioned above are all light rail lines, and the terminus for them will stay where it is now across a plaza to the west of the train shed. They will not relocate to the train shed, which will be reserved for Amtrak and the commuter lines, including the one to the airport,


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## fredevad (Nov 17, 2013)

So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?


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## afigg (Nov 18, 2013)

PaulM said:


> I'm pretty sure the two year wait will only be for the airport (east) line. There are already 4 lines in operation - Mineral (south), Lincoln (southeast), 9 Mile (SE) and Golden (west); and I'm sure they will move to the new station as soon as possible.
> 
> When you say commuter rail, you must be referring to light rail. I've heard mention of commuter rail (similar to MARC, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, etc), but I'm sure that is even further out in the future. Denver needs a commuter rail line between Ft. Collins and at least Colorado Springs.


No, Denver FasTracks under the Eagle P3 project is building 39 miles of electrified commuter rail lines, ie heavy rail. If you look at the information on the FasTracks website and documents, the East line to the airport, the Gold line, and the Northwest line Westminister segment will all be electrified. In the Eagle P3 summer 2013 newsletter, there is a photo of one of the first 4 test vehicles. RTD is buying 56 SilverLiner Vs for those lines, built in the same plant that built the SilverLiner Vs for SEPTA. I would expect the RTD version will be modified to run off of 60 Hz catenary as they won't need legacy 25 Hz capability.

What Denver is doing in building out a large transit system is quite impressive as is the speed at which it is getting built. It will be a somewhat unusual system with a light rail network on the south half of the metro area and a electrified regional rail system on the north half with a BRT line throw into the mix. They may be calling the northern lines commuter lines, but if they run those electrified lines 7 days a week with decent service frequencies on weekends as the system matures, I would label it as a regional rail system.

As the Denver rail transit system is built out, it will be a logical step to then look at adding intercity rail service to it. Maybe Colorado would support adding Amtrak corridor services or run their own in-state service lines to Ft. Collins and Colorado Springs, although that gets tied up into getting cooperation from the freight rail companies if CO does not build all new tracks.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 18, 2013)

I agree the train shed looks ugly and disjointed in that location. However, most of the other news from Denver sounds good to me. I live in a city that's maybe twice the size of Denver and yet we have no light rail, no commuter rail, and no hope of regional rail. We have six freeways but not even a single carpool lane. Our primary link to the next big city is perpetually clogged with traffic and the brand new tollway doesn't start or end anywhere near our city limits. We also have several vacant lots and defunct gas stations the Mexican bus lines use. To be fair we do have a metro bus line that seems well intentioned enough, but also completely incapable of successfully managing our ever growing suburban sprawl. Like Denver we have lots of great ideas, but unlike Denver we seem to have perpetual difficulty putting most of them into practical use. I'd say that a big part of problem is that we have to make do with a state government run by clueless indifferent hicks like good old Rick Perry. Living in Texas can be a confusing experience in some ways, and a painful mind destroying lobotomy in others.


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## jis (Nov 18, 2013)

fredevad said:


> So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?


It is still a stub end station.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 18, 2013)

I didn't realize that Denver was buying Silverliner V's. Those are not the most attractive cars on the rails, but they have been well received in Philadelphia and are comfortable. It will be odd to see what up to now were strictly east coast rail cars operating with the Rocky Mountains in the background.

The rail line will be a huge plus for Denver International. Access in and out of the city, a chore now, will be a breeze. I suspect the local cab drivers will be less thrilled.


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## jis (Nov 18, 2013)

I suspect that the door design and interior furnishing will be different from the Silverliner V cars for the Eagle P3 Service. I will also be surprised if they are called Sivlerliner V in their incarnation in Denver.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 18, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The rail line will be a huge plus for Denver International. Access in and out of the city, a chore now, will be a breeze. I suspect the local cab drivers will be less thrilled.


I believe someone said airport taxi fares can run $75 each way or $150 round trip from the Denver airport. Even here in San Antonio where we still have one of those rare in-city airports it's $50 each way or $100 round trip to reach downtown. Even for a cynic like me this kind of government sanctioned price gouging is rather shocking. These days I try to offer rides whenever I can so nobody has to fund the Taxi Mafia.


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## afigg (Nov 18, 2013)

jis said:


> I suspect that the door design and interior furnishing will be different from the Silverliner V cars for the Eagle P3 Service. I will also be surprised if they are called Sivlerliner V in their incarnation in Denver.


There is a video of the RTD pilot test cars operating under power in Korea. Comparing the video to pics of the Silverliner V, the door design looks to be strictly high level which makes sense as RTD is building an all new system with same height platforms. Otherwise looks very similar to the SEPTA Silverliner Vs. I also would not expect the Denver cars to be called Silverliner Vs as that would mean nothing to the Denver market. Maybe RTD will have a naming contest for the new EMU line.

But someone taking a SEPTA Silverliner V to the Philly airport, then flying to Denver, and getting on the train to Union Station in 2016 may notice that the train cars look oddly familiar. Skimming the FEIS documents, BTW, the 18 mile North Metro rail line (aiming for a 2018 completion) will be electrified with EMUs while the 42 mile Northwest rail line beyond the electrified ~6 mile segment that is under construction will use DMUs. So, unless the miles include overlapping lines, my math says that Denver is building ~57 miles of electrified commuter/regional rail lines which may be the most new miles of electrified commuter lines we've seen in the US in some time.


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## PaulM (Nov 18, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> The line to Denver International will be true commuter rail, not light rail.


Looking at their website I see that now.


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## PaulM (Nov 18, 2013)

Sactobob said:


> The four lines mentioned above are all light rail lines, and the terminus for them will stay where it is now across a plaza to the west of the train shed. They will not relocate to the train shed, which will be reserved for Amtrak and the commuter lines, including the one to the airport,


Bad news as far as I'm concerned. I guess I was making the assumption that the new station/transportation center wouldn't be a step backwards from when light rail terminated at the station. Its gate was just past the Chief Connection gate (just joking).


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## Nathanael (Nov 18, 2013)

afigg said:


> Skimming the FEIS documents, BTW, the 18 mile North Metro rail line (aiming for a 2018 completion) will be electrified with EMUs while the 42 mile Northwest rail line beyond the electrified ~6 mile segment that is under construction will use DMUs. So, unless the miles include overlapping lines, my math says that Denver is building ~57 miles of electrified commuter/regional rail lines which may be the most new miles of electrified commuter lines we've seen in the US in some time.


The NW rail line is completely up in the air, and in fact has been repeatedly threatened with cancellation. It has extremely strong support from the cities along the line so I think it will eventually get done. But I wouldn't make any bets on how it will be operated when it finally gets built. Current funding would only finish it in 2042, and the cost benefit analyses for electric vs. diesel are gonna look really different by the time ground is broken for an extension past Westminster.
Anyway, the North Metro line will probably be completed partway (to 124th Ave) by 2018, since contracts are due to be signed later this month. East Rail and Gold Line and the stub of NW Rail to Westminster, and the light rail "I-225" extension are all fully contracted and due to open in 2016. West Rail light rail has already opened. There is a little overlap in the lines but not much, all near Union Station. So yeah, Denver is *massively* expanding electrified rail, the single biggest expansion in any city in the US.


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## SubwayNut (Nov 19, 2013)

Anyone know if RTD will be allowed to run there EMUs OPTO or will they have to have a conductor?

The reason I ask is of the new DMU commuter rail lines that have popped up I know that the riverLINE, Spinter Austin's MetroRail are OPTO but Portland's West Coast Express, much to my surprise has both a conductor and an engineer. Don't know of new systems where RTD's Commuter Rail falls into.


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## railiner (Nov 19, 2013)

jis said:


> fredevad said:
> 
> 
> > So will the CZ still have to back in to the new station?
> ...


Even when it wasn't...when the tracks crossed the Cherry Creek and continued south, the CZ still had to either wye before or after arriving. The only route accessible from the south end was the Joint Line toward Colorado Springs and Pueblo.


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## June the Coach Rider (Nov 19, 2013)

I am on the CZ in early February, just wondered if the move would be done so I could see the new stuff.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 19, 2013)

June the Coach Rider said:


> I am on the CZ in early February, just wondered if the move would be done so I could see the new stuff.


Looks like you might be the one telling us.


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## eblkheart (Nov 19, 2013)

As a local, the thing that concerns me is where the Union Station parking will be. I know that the old parking lot is going to be changed to a plaza of some sort, but I can't find anything else on it. Anyone know?


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 19, 2013)

eblkheart said:


> As a local, the thing that concerns me is where the Union Station parking will be. I know that the old parking lot is going to be changed to a plaza of some sort, but I can't find anything else on it. Anyone know?


I can understand the concern. Here in San Antonio we have a very attractive train station that lacks even a single parking spot for Amtrak passengers. The closest overnight parking spot is several blocks away, costs $10 per day, and comes with no promises and no legal liability to protect you if anything happens to your car. Hopefully Denver is not dumb enough to end up in the same situation as us. At a minimum you'll also have buses and commuter rail to work with. Here in San Antonio we don't have anything but the train and the Taxi Mafia at our station.


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## SubwayNut (Nov 19, 2013)

What about VIA Bus in San Antonio?

I took it down from your one youth hostel that I was staying in to catch the early morning Texas Eagle. It did the job.


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## Nathanael (Nov 20, 2013)

I think you'll have to use one of the extremely numerous public pay parking lots within a few blocks. Or, as noted, take a train or bus in from an outlying point.


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## Shawn Ryu (Nov 22, 2013)

Kinda OT but will Denver's commuter rail share its track with freight trains like Metro North and LIRR does? Albeit those two do it rarely, during rush hour.


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## railiner (Nov 23, 2013)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Kinda OT but will Denver's commuter rail share its track with freight trains like Metro North and LIRR does? Albeit those two do it rarely, during rush hour.


One of the lines mentioned, was the BNSF line to Westminster.....it continues to Boulder, Fort Collins, Cheyenne, and joins BN's heavier route further north. I don't believe there are very many frieight trains at all on that route. Should not be a problem sharing it with commuter trains....


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## Shawn Ryu (Nov 23, 2013)

What about on their electrified lines?

I believe freight trains run on Metra electric line tracks. Or only on the parallel non electrified tracks?


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## railiner (Nov 23, 2013)

I just took a thorough look at their Fastrack website, and it appears that none of their projected routes use the busier freight train routes out of Denver....the 'Gold Line' is the route of mainly beer trains to Coors Brewery in Golden. The 'North Line' is a little used UP secondary line north. And the 'East Line' probably only shares part of the UP Kansas right of way, probably will have its own tracks parallel until it swings north towards the airport...

The busiest freight lines don't seem to have any commuter trains planned....those would be the BNSF and UP routes that the CZ uses, the UP mainline toward Cheyenne, and the Joint Line going south....


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## rickycourtney (Dec 11, 2013)

Amtrak's new timetable for the California Zephyr mentions the move back to Denver Union Station:



> New Denver Station Location
> 
> Amtrak will move the California Zephyr from the current Denver location at 21st and Wewatta Streets into Denver Union Station,1701 Wynkoop Street in February 2014 on a date to be announced.


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## Notelvis (Dec 11, 2013)

Here's what it looked like in February 2013 -


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## rickycourtney (Dec 11, 2013)

Passed through Denver on 6 earlier this week... the trainshed looks great and the station looked almost ready to open. A huge change from the last time I saw the station in October 2012.

But it was -10°F outside so I didn't look at it for long!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 11, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Amtrak's new timetable for the California Zephyr mentions the move back to Denver Union Station:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Look forward to Seeing it next time I ride the Zephyr ! And Goodbye to the Temporary Amshak Across the Street!


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## Blackwolf (Dec 11, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak's new timetable for the California Zephyr mentions the move back to Denver Union Station:
> ...


You have to admit, as far as AmShack's go, Denver had one of the best! Really, that station and platform was constructed better than 50% of what Amtrak uses as _permanent_ stations around the country. :help:

Very much waiting for the return to Denver Union though. And the best part will be the connections to regional light and heavy passenger rail when its all finished!


----------



## bgiaquin (Dec 11, 2013)

Shawn Ryu said:


> What about on their electrified lines?
> 
> I believe freight trains run on Metra electric line tracks. Or only on the parallel non electrified tracks?


Denver's electrified line will run parallel to UP's Limon Sub and then turn off to the airport. Metra Electric's Line runs parallel to CN but the freights have their own tracks.


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## Nathanael (Dec 12, 2013)

railiner said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> > Kinda OT but will Denver's commuter rail share its track with freight trains like Metro North and LIRR does? Albeit those two do it rarely, during rush hour.
> ...


None of the line segments under construction will share track with freight. The line to Boulder (planned but not under construction past Westminster) is the only one planned to share track with freight, and actually, that line carries a lot of freight for a single-track line, so BNSF has asked for a *lot* of money for track-sharing.


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## railiner (Dec 12, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > rickycourtney said:
> ...


It is very likely the reason that the 'temporary' station was so well built, was that Amtrak probably had nothing to do with its funding. It was up to RTD and it's contractors to furnish Amtrak with reasonable accommodations during their period of displacement from their permanent home.....


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## ACS-64 (Jan 3, 2014)

Amtrak returns to Denver Union Station February 15th. 5(14FEB) and 6(14FEB) will be the first trains to stop there.


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## Notelvis (Jan 3, 2014)

Hooray.

Looks like Denver is going to beat St. Paul.


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## the_traveler (Jan 3, 2014)

I feel a trip on the CZ coming up!


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 3, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I feel a trip on the CZ coming up!


Can't be to the gathering...it would be too direct, unless you mean taking it eastbound to get to the west coast. :giggle:


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## the_traveler (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm going to take the Desert Wind to connect to the CZ! :giggle:


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 3, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I'm going to take the Desert Wind to connect to the CZ! :giggle:


Probably more like the Sunset Ltd./Texas Eagle to LAX, the SWC to Raton, an AmBus to Denver, then the Zephyr to EMY! :lol: (The "Short Way!")


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## CHamilton (Feb 14, 2014)

Union Station Renovation To Be A Game Changer For Denver



> DENVER (CBS4) - Renovations to Denver’s Union Station are nothing short of a game changer. The project is being talked about across the nation and it will benefit Denverites for years to come....
> 
> The transportation project will include heated concrete to melt ice in the underground terminal, and vastly improved acoustics within the station. They call it an “urban living room”....
> 
> ...


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## Ryan (Feb 14, 2014)

10,000 new jobs?


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## Eric S (Feb 14, 2014)

Even counting job-years, rather than jobs, I find the 10,000 new jobs figure hard to believe.

Maybe they're counting job-days. :giggle:


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## eblkheart (Feb 14, 2014)

They maybe counting all of the other RTD rail construction as well going on in the metro area here in Denver. There's a bit of it going on for the past 5-7 years. But _10,000_... that's stretching it but I know someone in a engineering firm here that might be able to tell me if that's really realistic. In regards to the station as well, I think it's interesting what they are doing, but I wish they had kept in the classic sense. But they are trying to make that connection to Kansas, I mean, DIA, but to me it's a stretch. I may swing by there in the next week or so and check it out to see how it looks so far (and yes, post pics).


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 14, 2014)

10,000 Jobs!  Whoever was thne Honcho for this needs to be Flown to Washington ASAP (Air Force One would be a Good way to get them there if the Zephyr and Cap are too Slow! ^_^ ) and get busy helping create Jobs all over the Country!

Sounds like CoC Boosterism!!!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 14, 2014)

One guy on the job site hitting nails.

A runner bring supply to the workers.

A on-site supply manager.

A on-site clerk to keep track of paperwork.

Account payable clerk for the job.

Deliver driver to bring nails to work site.

A warehouse forklift operator.

A warehouse picker.

A warehouse shipping clerk.

A warehouse billing clerk.

A warehouse in-bound recv clerk.

A warehouse accounts payable clerk.

A warehouse maintainer.

A warehouse inside housekeeper.

A warehouse grounds keepers.

A warehouse manager.

A warehouse buyer.

A deliver driver (Over-The-Road).

A mech to fix the truck.

A parts clerk.

A Shop supervisor.

A clerk to charge warranties.

Oh the list will keep growing into it reach 10,000.


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## June the Coach Rider (Feb 15, 2014)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> One guy on the job site hitting nails.
> 
> A runner bring supply to the workers.
> 
> ...


Plus I would think they would hire many more than 1 person to hammer nails.


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## ACS-64 (Feb 19, 2014)

ACS-64 said:


> Amtrak returns to Denver Union Station February 15th. 5(14FEB) and 6(14FEB) will be the first trains to stop there.


UPDATE: Amtrak returns to Denver Union Station February 28th. 6(27FEB) will be the first train to stop there.


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## Nathanael (Feb 19, 2014)

*crosses fingers* Here's hoping no more snags come up!

If ACS-64 is correct about the exact timing, the 28th could be an entertaining day for taking photos near Denver Union Station.

#5 should come through and stop at the temporary station in the early morning. As soon as it departs, the station will be closed and the staff will move everything over to Union Station. In *daylight*. At which point Union Station would open up, prior to the evening arrival of #6.

Does that sound like the plan, ACS-64? If so, it would provide gobs of photo opportunities. (A mess would result if #5 were delayed, of course.)


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## rrdude (Feb 19, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I feel a trip on the CZ coming up!


I feel a trip TO Denver is in the _making_!

First time there in 75 or 76, (whenever JAWS came out) I was heading to Cali from summer ski camp at A-Basin, and had time to kill the day BEFORE my Rio Grande Zephyr was due to leave Denver. As a high school kid, and at the time the station was not well maintained, I had free reign to EXPLORE. I think the lunch-counter cafe closed a year or two later, it was just like walking around in a time warp...

One KNEW everything one was seeing was just "hanging on", (Like when I visited Detroit's old Michigan Central Station, when they still had a cafe, shoe shine, etc.... but yet I KNEW it was likely to be gone before I caught a train home......) even the staff was old and ready to say "Goodbye".... or so it seemed. Doom was in the air, or so it seemed.

So I roamed the different levels, even got up in the catwalks, since there was virtually no security, and got a good "tour" of Denver Union Station, on my own.

Saw the movie JAWS that night, had a 2% or 3% Coors (or two) that night, took Denver's Transit bus to Denver Union Station the next day to catch the Rio Grande, and damn if the buses weren't running on time.........

Once I got to the station, I ran up to the gate agent, showed him my ticket, and he said, "That train sliding out of the station right now is _probably_ the train you had tickets on..................." Grrrrrrrrrr. I ended up changing my ticket to ride Amtrak up thru Cheyenne, and thought I'd never get a chance to see the beauty of Glenwood Canyon, but luckily, several years later I did.

So, after that maudlin story, I'm ready to see the "New" Denver Union Station" first hand.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 19, 2014)

Amtrak has posted "Station News" on their website saying the move is official now.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251625597891,1241267361381

Oh, boy do I ever have the itch for a sudden trip on train #6(27) right now... Roomettes from SAC are running $272; $603 for two people with railfare included. Of course, burning 15K AGR points comes up too...


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## ACS-64 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> #5 should come through and stop at the temporary station in the early morning. As soon as it departs, the station will be closed and the staff will move everything over to Union Station. In *daylight*. At which point Union Station would open up, prior to the evening arrival of #6.


Bingo


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## SubwayNut (Feb 19, 2014)

There goes the nicest temporary station I've ever had to wait in. I'm not really complaining but the couple of times I boarded (just realized I never got off a train there) I couldn't believe what a pleasant (and permanent feeling except for the fact you have to cross the street). If only we could move that entire temporary station to Salt Lake City or some other place that desperately needs a better station. Wishful thinking. If I was a little closer to Denver and had the time (perhaps lived in Omaha or something) I think it would be quite the adventure to do a same-day turn (arrive on 5 in the morning depart on 6 that evening) and do a last to arrive and then first leave trip.


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## Nathanael (Feb 19, 2014)

SubwayNut said:


> There goes the nicest temporary station I've ever had to wait in. I'm not really complaining but the couple of times I boarded (just realized I never got off a train there) I couldn't believe what a pleasant (and permanent feeling except for the fact you have to cross the street). If only we could move that entire temporary station to Salt Lake City or some other place that desperately needs a better station. Wishful thinking.


Yeah -- unfortunately the temporary station was a real masonry building, not a portable building. A converted electrical supply store IIRC.


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## bgiaquin (Feb 20, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> > There goes the nicest temporary station I've ever had to wait in. I'm not really complaining but the couple of times I boarded (just realized I never got off a train there) I couldn't believe what a pleasant (and permanent feeling except for the fact you have to cross the street). If only we could move that entire temporary station to Salt Lake City or some other place that desperately needs a better station. Wishful thinking.
> ...


They will probably demolish it. They might want space for another one of their big fancy condo buildings.


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## Cma (Feb 20, 2014)

Will there be any special activity to mark the first train back at Union Station?


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## eblkheart (Feb 24, 2014)

I'll see about hitting Union Station. If I do, pics a plenty 

Edited to add:

I was worried about this. I just saw this on the station announcement:



> Drop-off and Pick-up Only: Parking Not AvailableAlthough there is no passenger parking at the new location, there are numerous long and short-term parking lots and garages around Union Station.


No station parking? Wha? *sigh*


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## Nathanael (Feb 24, 2014)

eblkheart said:


> No station parking? Wha? *sigh*


There are, as it says in the announcement, numerous paid long and short term parking lots and garages very close to Union Station. Including the Coors Field lots, which have a $40 *monthly* rate, and several $8/day garages. There is no need for additional parking, except perhaps for solo handicapped drivers.

http://www.downtowndenver.com/getting-around/driving-and-parking

Or you can ride one of the light rail lines, commuter rail lines (in 2016), or buses (in May), of course. There are a bunch of free lots associated with the outlying stations.

There is a plan still in place (but unfunded) to build a parking garage over the tracks to the east of the station, FWIW.

There will be dropoff/pickup, which is critical, though I have to say I'm a bit perplexed as to where they're going to put it. I'm also not clear on where the taxi stand's going to be. The Denver Union Station Master Plan Supplement claimed that taxis, limos, dropoff, etc. would be on Wewatta and Wynkoop Streets. It also claimed:



> Taxi: 15 positions
> 
> Rental Car: 30 parking spaces
> 
> ...


However, it's completely unclear to me where all this is supposed to go. I think the rental car spaces were supposed to be in the garage that isn't being built (yet), but it looks like the rest of it is all supposed to be on Wynkoop and Wewatta -- somehow. I'd be interested to see whether/how they manage to get all this stuffed into four blocks.


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## eblkheart (Feb 24, 2014)

I saw the parking across the street. Granted it's not bad for the most part for pricing. As for the drop off's, I saw that as well and wondered where the heck they were planning on something like that. Guess we'll see.


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## Tumbleweed (Feb 24, 2014)

The lack of parking is especially troublesome for pickup/dropoff when the train is late....


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## eblkheart (Feb 28, 2014)

Just an fyi, I'll be there tonight getting a few pics and such. and if I feel handy a video or two. 

Articles in various Denver outlets on the "reopening" of the station.

http://kdvr.com/2014/02/28/amtrak-returns-to-denvers-union-station/ (with video)

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25242992/amtrak-returns-union-station-friday

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/379313/346/Amtrak-returns-to-Denver-Union-Station


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## Cma (Feb 28, 2014)

Looks like the first train is going to be late. Waiting room is filling up.


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## eblkheart (Mar 1, 2014)

Quick post. This is the now used waiting room with the ticket booth. Very temporary (not sure about the ticket booth). More pics coming later including a few surprises.


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

More pics as promised. Apologies for the lateness. Note: Amtrak was using Track 4.





















Looking toward the back:


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

More pics:


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

Couple of comments about the station. Outside portion is about done. The platform feels out of place with the historic building but it works well with Amtrak with operations from what I saw. All but two are for the Light Rail. Tracks 1, 2 and I think 3 are for the DIA route. Watch your step. It's a big drop. 4 and 5 can be used by Amtrak and other passenger excursions. The waiting room is smaller then the temporary building that was used for the past few years. Getting access to the station is a little tricky, but just look for the signs and you shouldn't have issues. I did notice a taxi stand on the west side of the station so that could be a good place to drop off as well. I did use the parking garage right across from the station. Wasn't bad. Damn that was a cold night...


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## MattW (Mar 2, 2014)

Is the platform level boarding with the Superliners its whole length? It kind of looks like it's only level in one segment there in the last pic.

Do they do the kindergarden walk or are people actually allowed to wait on some of those benches I see on some of the platforms?


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

of the raised, I think there was 3, maybe 5. But there's no real issue with getting off or on. As for waiting, I am not sure. When I was there I just walked through the waiting area and I was on the platform. So I don't think there will be any escorts. I think. I could be wrong however.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 2, 2014)

I _reeeeeealy_ hope that something nicer is in store for the actual inside station room and waiting area. I understand that just about all of the former waiting room and station is re-purposed for the hotel and retail space, but if what is pictured above is the new permanent Amtrak station, Denver really just screwed the pooch. A windowless, funny-shaped florescent-lit dungeon that just screams uncomfortable to me. If its temporary, I can understand to a degree. Denver could, and should, do better after spending the millions they have on this jewel of a terminal.


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## Eric S (Mar 2, 2014)

eblkheart said:


> Couple of comments about the station. Outside portion is about done. The platform feels out of place with the historic building but it works well with Amtrak with operations from what I saw. All but two are for the Light Rail. Tracks 1, 2 and I think 3 are for the DIA route. Watch your step. It's a big drop. 4 and 5 can be used by Amtrak and other passenger excursions. The waiting room is smaller then the temporary building that was used for the past few years. Getting access to the station is a little tricky, but just look for the signs and you shouldn't have issues. I did notice a taxi stand on the west side of the station so that could be a good place to drop off as well. I did use the parking garage right across from the station. Wasn't bad. Damn that was a cold night...


Light Rail? Are you referring to the existing light rail lines (C, E, W), or the under construction/proposed commuter rail lines (Gold, Northwest, North, East/DIA)?


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## bgiaquin (Mar 2, 2014)

eblkheart said:


> Couple of comments about the station. Outside portion is about done. The platform feels out of place with the historic building but it works well with Amtrak with operations from what I saw. All but two are for the Light Rail. Tracks 1, 2 and I think 3 are for the DIA route. Watch your step. It's a big drop. 4 and 5 can be used by Amtrak and other passenger excursions. The waiting room is smaller then the temporary building that was used for the past few years. Getting access to the station is a little tricky, but just look for the signs and you shouldn't have issues. I did notice a taxi stand on the west side of the station so that could be a good place to drop off as well. I did use the parking garage right across from the station. Wasn't bad. Damn that was a cold night...


Um sir the light rail is a little bit to the north. The platforms you we on are for just Amtrak, future commuter rail, etc.


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

Okay, regarding the light rail. The ones you see directly are for Amtrak etc. There are two each for Lightrail and then the 2 (or 3) for the DIA light rail. This one is REAL deep. I was told this by an RTD official friday night. And seeing a pic of the new Lightrail made for the DIA route, yes, there is rails for that (Tracks 1, 2 and 3 (?)). Below is the pic of it:






You can see the depth difference in that and the ones that Amtrak (etc) uses.

There are 2 (?) other tracks on the northside that are also light rail near the taxi area. I also have video from friday night so I may post them sometime this week.


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> I _reeeeeealy_ hope that something nicer is in store for the actual inside station room and waiting area. I understand that just about all of the former waiting room and station is re-purposed for the hotel and retail space, but if what is pictured above is the new permanent Amtrak station, Denver really just screwed the pooch. A windowless, funny-shaped florescent-lit dungeon that just screams uncomfortable to me. If its temporary, I can understand to a degree. Denver could, and should, do better after spending the millions they have on this jewel of a terminal.


The Waiting area is very temporary.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 2, 2014)

It's Commuter/Rail Rail, are the other tracks, not light rail that will use the other platforms and require high-level platforms. If an RTD employee called it Light Rail, there starting to use new terminology that's not standard. It's commuter rail because its FRA compliant. It's really nice to see that for the commuter rail lines they simply sunk the track beds instead of having platforms of different lengths. It's so rare to see that! The lines will use the same Silverliner Vs as SEPTA Regional Rail Lienes except without traps and different doors.

The website of the developer of Union Station, even calls it travel to RTD Light Rail Networks. No reference to Commuter or Regional Rail. The RTD talks about the P3 Partnership building 3 new Regional Rail Lines. Perhaps its turning into a terminology issue in Denver.

Those are Commuter Rail/Regional I've been following the RTD building boom and it was


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

SubwayNut said:


> It's Commuter/Rail Rail, are the other tracks, not light rail that will use the other platforms and require high-level platforms. If an RTD employee called it Light Rail, there starting to use new terminology that's not standard. It's commuter rail because its FRA compliant. It's really nice to see that for the commuter rail lines they simply sunk the track beds instead of having platforms of different lengths. It's so rare to see that! The lines will use the same Silverliner Vs as SEPTA Regional Rail Lienes except without traps and different doors.
> 
> The website of the developer of Union Station, even calls it travel to RTD Light Rail Networks. No reference to Commuter or Regional Rail. The RTD talks about the P3 Partnership building 3 new Regional Rail Lines. Perhaps its turning into a terminology issue in Denver.
> 
> Those are Commuter Rail/Regional I've been following the RTD building boom and it was


Sounds like this was explained to me wrong or I misunderstood. I was just amazed how deep tracks 1-3 are compared to the others. (4 and 5).

Btw, here is a pic of Track 7:


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 2, 2014)

Never been to Denver by train so I am confused here- how many different types of trains is this station going to serve? Is it three?

1) Regular Amtrak - Superliner, low level platforms

2) Some light rail (RTD?) low level platforms

3) Some commuter rail with high level platforms similar to NE Corridor?

Is this correct? If so, where will 2) and 3) each go to?


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## eblkheart (Mar 2, 2014)

Texan Eagle said:


> Never been to Denver by train so I am confused here- how many different types of trains is this station going to serve? Is it three?
> 
> 1) Regular Amtrak - Superliner, low level platforms
> 
> ...


Here's some information:



> Denver Union Station (DUS) will serve as a multimodal transportation hub, integrating light rail, commuter rail, and intercity rail (Amtrak), as well as regional,
> 
> express, and local bus service, the 16th Street Mall shuttle, Free MetroRide, and intercity buses, taxis, shuttles, vans, limousines, bicycles and pedestrians.


(source: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/dus_1)


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## railiner (Mar 2, 2014)

eblkheart said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > I _reeeeeealy_ hope that something nicer is in store for the actual inside station room and waiting area. I understand that just about all of the former waiting room and station is re-purposed for the hotel and retail space, but if what is pictured above is the new permanent Amtrak station, Denver really just screwed the pooch. A windowless, funny-shaped florescent-lit dungeon that just screams uncomfortable to me. If its temporary, I can understand to a degree. Denver could, and should, do better after spending the millions they have on this jewel of a terminal.
> ...


I should hope that waiting room shown is temporary.....I could just imagine what would happen if due to delays, both Zephyr's are at the station together.....I'd bet some of the overflow passengers would 'migrate' over to the adjacent plush hotel lobby to wait.....


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## Eric S (Mar 3, 2014)

Texan Eagle said:


> Never been to Denver by train so I am confused here- how many different types of trains is this station going to serve? Is it three?
> 
> 1) Regular Amtrak - Superliner, low level platforms
> 
> ...


(2) is somewhat removed from the core Union Station area, roughly 2 city blocks northwest, along the freight mainline. The light rail line/station/platform was constructed (or reconstructed?) a couple of years ago IIRC. (1) and (3) will be (or now are) next to the historic Union Station building. I think it was mentioned earlier that Tracks 1-3 are high level for commuter rail and Tracks 4 and 5 are low level for Amtrak. Not sure how many tracks/platforms there are, or whether the light rail tracks/platforms are numbered as well.


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## bgiaquin (Mar 3, 2014)

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7545592,-105.0019997,805m/data=!3m1!1e3 google map of Union station. It clearly shows were the light rail and commuter rail/ Amtrak platforms are and how they are separate.


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## neroden (Mar 3, 2014)

There are eight stub-end tracks numbered from the station outward.

It's a bit confusing, because there are four platforms. Two of the tracks -- #3 and #6 -- are on "bay" platforms. Final platform allocations for Gold Line & NW Rail seem to be undecided, as I've seen several different versions.

Here's the diagram. The bumping blocks are on the left.

(PLATFORM)

Track 8 (Gold Line / NW Rail)

Track 7 (Gold Line / NW Rail)

(PLATFORM) Track 6 (Gold Line / NW Rail)

PLATFORM

Track 5 (Specials, Amtrak)

SERVICE PLATFORM

Track 4 (Amtrak)

PLATFORM

(PLATFORM) Track 3 (spare)

Track 2 (North Metro)

Track 1 (East Metro)

PLATFORM

STATION BUILDING

All the platforms are at (roughly) the same height, but the *tracks* aren't. Tracks 4 and 5 are elevated above the other tracks, so that they have "low level boarding", while tracks 1-3 and 6-8 have "high level boarding".

When the hotel construction is finished in June, the Great Hall will become the waiting room for Amtrak again.


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## neroden (Mar 3, 2014)

MattW said:


> Is the platform level boarding with the Superliners its whole length? It kind of looks like it's only level in one segment there in the last pic.


Bizarrely, they seem to have level "mini-highs" for some cars (and not others). This seems like the result of a miscalculation to me.

The rest of it is still very very close to boarding level, though; less than the height of one step on a normal staircase. I haven't been there, but looking at it, I think this might only be a 3 inch difference. People with canes and so forth will have no problem. At spots without the mini-highs, people in wheelchairs will probably need a small bridgeplate/ramp, but shouldn't need a lift.

I would say "This should save a lot of time on boarding", but the train sits for a long time at Denver anyway so it probably doesn't matter. :-/

I'm glad to hear that people are allowed to wait on the benches on the platform. As it should be.

Worth noting: although it will probably never happen, if Amtrak ever needs to run single-level equipment to Denver, it could theoretically be platformed in tracks 1-3 or 6-8 and have level boarding. The "commuter rail" which is using tracks 1-3 and 6-8 is basically the same rolling stock as what SEPTA uses in Philadelphia (including electrification), and SEPTA stops along the Northeast and Keystone Corridors are shared with Amtrak.


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## getbent (Mar 3, 2014)

Is there any parking whatsoever at the station? We'll be taking the CZ at the end of the month and will be dropped off/picked up based on what the autocall from Amtrak told us about parking. I guess I assumed it would still have a mini-lot like the temp station had. I might rethink our plans regarding getting to the station if that's the case.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 3, 2014)

getbent said:


> Is there any parking whatsoever at the station? We'll be taking the CZ at the end of the month and will be dropped off/picked up based on what the autocall from Amtrak told us about parking. I guess I assumed it would still have a mini-lot like the temp station had. I might rethink our plans regarding getting to the station if that's the case.


It appears there is some accommodation for drop off and pick-up, but not for parking.

Here is what Amtrak says:



> *Drop-off and Pick-up Only: Parking Not Available*
> 
> Although there is no passenger parking at the new location, there are numerous long and short-term parking lots and garages around Union Station. For more information on where to park, visit http://www.downtowndenver.com/getting-around/driving-and-parking.


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## getbent (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks!

I'm used to parking down there for Rockies games, so I'm thinking I might consider just parking myself and avoiding the "mom guilt" factor if our train comes in late on our return and my mother has to find a place to park.


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## eblkheart (Mar 3, 2014)

There's a parking garage right across the street from the station (1600 Wynkoop). Small, it worked out friday night.


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## getbent (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks!

That might work for her. Since posting, I remembered we are returning via coach and I might not have all my faculties about me when we arrive at 7AM for the 2 hour drive home.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 3, 2014)

Seems like having a cell phone waiting lot would help make pickup/dropoff a bit more practical.


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## getbent (Mar 3, 2014)

Since LoDo has many a free parking lot just outside of it (not IN LoDo), I imagine we're going to play it by ear rather easily. I can call when we're close and she can be ready. Heck, I can call when we get off the train. For instance, once you go over the bridge at Speer Blvd, there is a Starbucks nearby with handy parking and coffee to be had. I hazard she could even, since it is still winter, loiter down by Elitch's (the local amusement park) with no problem.

I think Denver lucks out that, although LoDo is tight on parking, there are plenty of parking opportunities just outside of it. Yes, it is not as convenient as a waiting parking lot, but I imagine it's not as bad as in much larger cities.


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## Notelvis (Mar 5, 2014)

eblkheart -

Thanks for the pictures..... I am looking forward to seeing DUS fully reopened and with the various commuter train platforms in full use. I am sure that I will be using the line from the airport to Union Station in the not too distant future.

One question - where is this new Amtrak ticket office in relation to the original DUS waiting room?


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## railiner (Mar 5, 2014)

neroden said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > Is the platform level boarding with the Superliners its whole length? It kind of looks like it's only level in one segment there in the last pic.
> ...


While Amtrak single-level equipment could "in theory" be platformed on those high level platforms, I would say that "in practice", the RTD would probably take a dim view of Amtrak trains with their often erratic timekeeping sharing their tracks.....

Amtrak single level cars do have traps, so they could use Amtrak's own low level platforms....


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## railiner (Mar 5, 2014)

How will the switches be controlled at the station....will there be a new tower built with a train director like there used to be previously>


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## bgiaquin (Mar 6, 2014)

railiner said:


> How will the switches be controlled at the station....will there be a new tower built with a train director like there used to be previously>


Switches will be controlled by the RTD dispatcher.


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## eblkheart (Mar 6, 2014)

Notelvis said:


> eblkheart -
> 
> Thanks for the pictures..... I am looking forward to seeing DUS fully reopened and with the various commuter train platforms in full use. I am sure that I will be using the line from the airport to Union Station in the not too distant future.
> 
> One question - where is this new Amtrak ticket office in relation to the original DUS waiting room?


It's literally would be next door to it or real close to it. It's south of the main room.


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## railiner (Mar 6, 2014)

bgiaquin said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > How will the switches be controlled at the station....will there be a new tower built with a train director like there used to be previously>
> ...


In the old days, the station was the property of the Denver Union Terminal Railway Company, the tracks were governed by the Interlocking Rules of that company, and the Train Director's were employed by that company, in their tower. It seems strange to hear of an "RTD Dispatcher", but it makes sense....

Just curious how it will be controlled...will there be a "tower" at the depot, or remotely controlled from some other RTD facility?


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## railiner (Mar 8, 2014)

railiner said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Just refreshing this thread to see if anyone know's the answer to my question.......


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't know anything for sure, but towers have gone out of fashion. Most dispatchers work in windowless rooms surrounded by computer screens, some are even underground "bunkers."


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## neroden (Mar 8, 2014)

I believe that the RTD dispatchers are supposed to operate out of a "bunker" room in the basement of Denver Union Station -- probably on the east side. That was the last I heard, though it was several years ago so plans may have changed.

It seems like an excellent choice for many reasons.

RTD doesn't own very many buildings, and most of them aren't next to the railway lines, so it was Union Station or the new maintenance depot -- and the maintenance depot is on a very congested site which is smaller than RTD wanted it to be. Since all the new lines go to Union Station, it rather simplifies the laying of signal and communications cables, since they can all run from the end of their respective lines straight along until they reach Union Station. Part of the visible construction work in the past years involved digging a trench and installing cable ducts underneath the east end of the tracks, leading to the basement of the station on the east side.

Union Station is the logical location. If it's necessary to do funny things like holding trains for buses or vice versa, the dispatchers are close enough to have good, high-bandwidth communications with everyone involved. It keeps the dispatchers close to the most critical transfer point and chokepoint for the system. Given the proximity, the dispatchers will probably have video monitors watching the station tracks, and can even send someone out to find out what's going on if necessary.


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## eblkheart (Mar 14, 2014)

More information about what business will be inside Union Station here in Denver. I have to say, damn impressed.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/real_deals/2014/03/final-lineup-of-new-denver-union-station-retailers.html


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## jimhudson (Mar 14, 2014)

Any talk or plans for a Metro Lounge or First Class Waiting Area for Amtrak Passengers?


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## railiner (Mar 14, 2014)

eblkheart said:


> More information about what business will be inside Union Station here in Denver. I have to say, damn impressed.
> 
> http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/real_deals/2014/03/final-lineup-of-new-denver-union-station-retailers.html


Interesting mix of businesses...notice no major franchises included...wonder if they discouraged them, or the chains didn't think it would work for them.....


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## railiner (Mar 14, 2014)

neroden said:


> I believe that the RTD dispatchers are supposed to operate out of a "bunker" room in the basement of Denver Union Station -- probably on the east side. That was the last I heard, though it was several years ago so plans may have changed.
> 
> It seems like an excellent choice for many reasons.
> 
> ...


I know if I was a Dispatcher, or Train Director, I would rather be in a tower where I could directly see what was happening, then being down in some high-tech dungeon.....


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## Steve4031 (Mar 15, 2014)

Nice line up of stores and restaurants. Hopefully they'll be up and running by July when I go through there.


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## neroden (Mar 16, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> Any talk or plans for a Metro Lounge or First Class Waiting Area for Amtrak Passengers?


No.

The Great Hall is going to be mainly for Amtrak passengers, however. Due to public outcry, the hotel "lobby" was moved elsewhere; the RTD "Commuter Rail" lines will be frequent enough that most people will wait on the platform; the buses have their own waiting room in the underground bus facility; and the light rail passengers will be waiting way off three blocks north. This means that the Great Hall will be almost entirely for Amtrak passengers.

Which is a more luxurious environment to wait in than most of the Metropolitan Lounges, let alone the "standard" waiting rooms at places like Minneapolis/St. Paul Midway or Penn Station NY.

It's worth remembering that most of Amtrak's First Class Lounges are at Amtrak train-to-train transfer points, where many first class passengers may be sitting around waiting for a long time for their connecting trains. (Raleigh seems to be the exception?) Denver's busy, but it isn't a transfer point of this sort.

As for having the dispatchers in a tower... yeah, I'm sure they'd love it, but $$$ -- the upstairs levels of the buildings in that area are all taken by higher-priced uses than a dispatching office. The basement, on the other hand, isn't in super high demand... except for model railroad clubs (a sore point)...


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## eblkheart (Mar 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> The basement, on the other hand, isn't in super high demand... except for model railroad clubs (a sore point)...


You're not kidding sore point... *grumble*


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Any talk or plans for a Metro Lounge or First Class Waiting Area for Amtrak Passengers?
> ...


Why would the tower have to be in a surrounding building? I don't recall, but isn't there a pedestrian bridge built over the new platforms? If so, a tower would fit in very nicely above it.....


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## Sactobob (Mar 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Any talk or plans for a Metro Lounge or First Class Waiting Area for Amtrak Passengers?
> ...


I may be coming to Denver this fall and might stay at the hotel upstairs. Out of curiosity, just where will the hotel lobby be located?


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2014)

Good question....is there a floorplan of the station posted online yet?


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## PRR 60 (Mar 16, 2014)

This Site has some interior renderings and floor plans. Hotel registration will be on the second floor.


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## railiner (Mar 16, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> This Site has some interior renderings and floor plans. Hotel registration will be on the second floor.


Okay, that explains it....the hotel registration will share the open part of the second floor area over the old ticket office with the new "Cooper Lounge"...


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

Be aware, if you're looking at those floor plans. The floor plans on the Inhabitat page are still correct as far as I know *for the upper levels*. But the ground floor layout was rearranged to put the Amtrak operations in the south wing.

http://denver.eater.com/archives/2013/05/29/union-station.php

(It seems from the plans so far that RTD will not have a staffed office or counter, which is quite surprising given that Market St. Bus Station, which is closing to be replaced by the Union Station bus station, has a staffed counter and office. But the plans seem to change pretty often so maybe an RTD counter will reappear by the time the building opens.)


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

FWIW, some of the stuff coming out of the Fastracks newsletters makes me think they've decided to locate the dispatching center in the maintenance facility. (It'll be crowded there.)

Unfortunately, their new Commuter Rail Maintenance Facility is inaccessible by rail or bus. This has been a sloppy design choice of a lot of systems lately, forcing transit workers to drive to work. It creates bad attitudes among the employees, if you think about it.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 19, 2014)

Might the maintenance facility be served by special employee only stops from passing Commuter Trains? These stops are quite common. PATH has about five serving their yard, CSX's intermodal yard and a number of other almost random locations, there tiny platforms and they open one door in the font of the train. LIRR has at least two (Hillside has full length high-level platforms). The RiverLINE has one for its yard. NJT has at least one serving the Meadowlands where their operational HQ are.

There defiantly more.


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## greatcats (Mar 19, 2014)

Employee platforms are often full of defiant employees, like this poster used to be. Hehe.


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

SubwayNut said:


> Might the maintenance facility be served by special employee only stops from passing Commuter Trains?


You know, I was thinking that that wouldn't be sufficient because the dispatchers would have to get there before the trains start running and leave after they stop running....
....but it looks like Denver may be running essentially 24-hour service, which they do on several of the light rail lines. In which case it could work! (Though not for the very first dispatcher ever to go on shift!)

24-hour service, awesomely good idea. I wasn't expecting it because it's *so* rare in the US. There's something like a 2 hour gap between last train and first train on the light rail, which means to me they must have dispatchers for that around the clock.


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## CHamilton (Mar 26, 2014)

Denver Transit Hub Is a Test Case for Funding
Financial Backing Comes From Two Little-Known Federal-Loan Programs



> DENVER—When this city takes the wraps off its redeveloped mass-transit hub in May, the project will bring hundreds of thousands of passengers downtown by connecting multiple rail and bus lines there.
> Behind the scenes, Denver's revamped Union Station transit hub is venturing into unfamiliar territory: It is among the first such projects to draw much of its financial backing from two little-known federal-loan programs aimed mostly at other forms of transportation such as freight rail and highways....
> The loans came from the Federal Railroad Administration's Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing program, or RRIF, and the Transportation Department's Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act, or TIFIA.
> Typically, transit systems have financed expansion by relying heavily on special-district bonds or grants from a Federal Transit Administration program. But the bond market has been challenging for issuers, and Congress in 2012 required the FTA to rein in the amounts it grants each project.
> So Denver turned to TIFIA and RRIF, and now other cities are wading in. San Francisco is using a $171 million loan from the TIFIA program to help finance the first phase of a $1.9 billion transit center connecting 11 transit systems downtown, and the city said it might pursue a RRIF loan for the second phase. In Florida, officials behind a planned Orlando-to-Miami rail system said they are considering using RRIF financing, which oversees light-rail and bus operations in the Denver area.


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## getbent (Mar 28, 2014)

Figure while I'm here...

There is no good place for passenger drop off from Wynkoop. We got dropped at the spot reserved for the Amtrak bus and crossed the road. I imagine once construction is done it will be better.

Bathrooms are in the basement, which is creepy and cool at the same time. This really is a neat old station.

Waiting room is very small. Good practice for the roomette.


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## afigg (May 12, 2014)

Article with a bunch of photos on the grand opening of the bus terminal concourse in Denver Union Station: Denver Union Station: Transit Center Grand Opening Part 2. One very nice looking bus terminal concourse with a lot of capacity.


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## railiner (May 13, 2014)

Thanks so much for that link....I guess I'll have to 'slip over' to see it for myself. Looks very elaborate, but I have to see how the bus operation works....don't see any 'queue's' set up either inside or on the platform for passenger's to line up at each gate. I wonder what the overhead clearance is for buses....could high-level intercity coaches fit?

I wonder if they made some provision's for newstands or snack bars/concession's in the concourse, whatever....

Guess I'll just have to go see it.....


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## ABDeh88 (May 13, 2014)

I was there today checking it out! Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier or I would have taken more photos. I'll get a few pics up ASAP.


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## eblkheart (Jul 13, 2014)

May I present, the Great Hall at Union Station. Damn pretty. This was taken today, I think.







(photo credit: Colorado Rail Association)


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## railiner (Jul 13, 2014)

Awesome photo, thanks for posting!

The first thing that jumps out at me is the vast improvement in the 'chandeliers' over the former square flourescent fixtures.... The lobby looks very plush and comfortable, but too bad they didn't preserve at least some of the original benches////


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## railiner (Jul 13, 2014)

I notice the name of the elegant "Terminal Bar", which is where the ticket office used to be. Sure is a lot fancier than the local 'gin-mill' called The Terminal Bar and Cafe a block up 17th Street was...


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## neroden (Jul 13, 2014)

Another photo I found on Facebook

( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102657669700473&set=a.10100823446887693.2807130.6232754&type=1 )

shows that traditional "railroad station" benches are now set up on the other end of the station, nearer to the trackside door (behind the photographer, or maybe where the photographer is standing). These seem to have replaced the "Amtrak blue" chairs.

It looks like Denver Union Station is really open. Apparently there's still punchlist construction going on and the "grand opening" was postponed to July 26th. But it looks like the waiting room, the hotel, and all the restaurants are open as of yesterday, and it's just odds and ends being finished up.

(No news about what's in the basement; poor model train societies.)


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## eblkheart (Jul 13, 2014)

If I have time later this week, I'll swing by and get pics for the group. Have to say though I am very very happy with the look.


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## railiner (Jul 14, 2014)

neroden said:


> Another photo I found on Facebook
> 
> ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102657669700473&set=a.10100823446887693.2807130.6232754&type=1 )
> 
> ...


Thanks for that shot. Those benches do resemble the original, but are not quite as substantial...the original were higher, had light fixture's built into the tops, and had radiator's in the space between the two sides....here's a link with some photo's of the old ones....https://www.google.com/search?q=denver+union+station+interior+photos&tbm=isch&imgil=l8JZGI7JcsUz1M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcRQ2-12X1N00-ulyrcZqRWFc9EBCHymCwRWSnRhnXnW3S40LD_U%253B5184%253B3456%253BVXOdVk3axR9B4M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fretracingjackkerouac.com%25252F2011%25252F11%25252F25%25252Fwhats-all-this-browness-of-light-in-the-railroad-station%25252F&source=iu&usg=__80mk9JgfDgzj6raHaZgNjwd9gDo%3D&sa=X&ei=nX3DU5yPLYiRyASeqIKQCw&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBg&biw=1440&bih=813#facrc=_&imgdii=l8JZGI7JcsUz1M%3A%3Bg-ol3pNaUxhndM%3Bl8JZGI7JcsUz1M%3A&imgrc=l8JZGI7JcsUz1M%253A%3BVXOdVk3axR9B4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fretracingjackkerouac.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F11%252Fimg_3668.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fretracingjackkerouac.com%252F2011%252F11%252F25%252Fwhats-all-this-browness-of-light-in-the-railroad-station%252F%3B5184%3B3456


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## neroden (Jul 14, 2014)

Ah yes, I've seen that type in Sacramento. (Though the Sacramento ones have massive amounts of "Southern Pacific" decorative detail.) The in-bench radiators are pretty much obsolete tech now and expensive to run, which explains the replacement.


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## domefoamer (Jul 14, 2014)

According to the Denver Post, it was planned to re-use the old wood benches, but they contained so much asbestos that it was impractical to keep them. I'll miss them-- they were like oversized church pews.


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## darien-l (Jul 14, 2014)

Here's a full report on the Union Station re-opening, complete with lots of photos:

http://denverinfill.com/blog/2014/07/denver-union-station-update-128-the-historic-station-opens.html

Looks great, although it perhaps has more of a "shopping mall" than a "train station" ambiance.


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2014)

darien-l said:


> Here's a full report on the Union Station re-opening, complete with lots of photos:
> 
> http://denverinfill.com/blog/2014/07/denver-union-station-update-128-the-historic-station-opens.html
> 
> Looks great, although it perhaps has more of a "shopping mall" than a "train station" ambiance.


Nice link, thanks....

I don't think it is so much like a shopping mall...at least nowhere in the scale of Washington Union Station, that is.....


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 15, 2014)

It's a nice edifice. Not as nice as the big grand stations, such as GCT, Hoboken, Scranton, Washingon, or Chicago. But nice.


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## railiner (Jul 16, 2014)

It's bigger than Scranton, and perhaps even Hoboken....but then again Denver was a lot smaller than New York, Chicago, and Washington. Considering Denver's size in the period, I think it is 'grand', relatively speaking.....


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 16, 2014)

Maybe it's bigger than Scranton. But nowhere near as beautiful.


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## railiner (Jul 17, 2014)

You may have a point there, but I see Radisson didn't save any of that station's historic benches, either...http://www.radisson.com/scranton-hotel-pa-18503/pascrant


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 17, 2014)

But they do have a positively PHENOMENAL lunch buffet in their restaurant for, IIRC $10-15 a person. Best veal chops I've ever had- and the rest was excellent, too. It would be a bargain at an ambience of 0, but with the station and a live piano as a back drop...


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