# Engineer Career?



## mom (Oct 6, 2012)

Help? My son says he's interested in seeking a career as a train engineer. He wants to go to a technical school to become a engineer. He thinks he can go directly into the position once he finishes tech school but from information I have viewed on this forum he would have to be hired as a conductor first and then apply two years later to become an engineer. The kicker to all this is my son suffers and migraines accomplanied by vertigo. Doesn't riding a train involve alot of motion sensory side effects? So I'm trying to convince him that maybe he should go to college first and then tech school if he's still interesting in becoming an engineer. Any input from train personel on this matter would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you! mom


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## the_traveler (Oct 6, 2012)

First - This forum is not affiliated with Amtrak.

Second - I am moving this thread to a more appropriate forum, where many more members can see your question, and I hope provide an answer.

Good luck to him!


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## George Harris (Oct 6, 2012)

Just as there are many things to do on an airline other than be a pilot, there are many things you can do working for a railroad other than be an engineer. Reality of being an engineer can be quite different than the expectations. When you are on the low end of the seniority roster your working hours can be very unpredicitable. There are many people that decide they want out after the reality begins to sink in. The responsibility can be huge, along with the level of blame when things go wrong.

I would suggest that you look into information on the industry in general and the companies individually. It is a business, not a game or hobby. There are accounts, lawyers, engineers of the civil, mechanical, and electrical varieties. There are people working in technical fields and trades in track maintenance, equipment maintenance, multiple clerical jobs, etc., etc.


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## Shortline (Oct 6, 2012)

It depends...there ARE schools you can pay for training, and come out a certified engineer. Getting a job as one however, is much more difficult. As you said, 90+% of railroads hire conductors entry level, whether or not you paid for certification as an engineer. I did recently find out Amtrak hires off the street into engine service, but I have to believe they prefer experienced also. Something to consider, currently the only "medical standards" to be a loco engineer (or conductor ) are hearing, and vision requirements. I fully expect that to change in the next year or two, the FRA is currently working on new medical standards, that we assume will add a lot of restrictions, and limitations on Railroaders, similar to those of an airline pilot who must pass a Class 1 flight physical. May be something to consider....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Oct 6, 2012)

It's not easy to be an engineer, or to find a job. I hear that most start as conductors then get proomoted to engineer. As long as he keep[s in it he should get somewhere, but if you mess up big then your career is pretty much done for. Amtrak also prefers college graduates as engineers.

Trains actually don't have much motion sensory side effects, AFAIK. Note that different railroads use different signals and some locomotives are totally different to operate from others. He rewally needs to do some research if he wants to do this.


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## Exiled in Express (Oct 7, 2012)

My father and 2 of my uncles were engineers for Conrail many years ago. Seniority rules and crap runs down hill; nights, weekends, and layoffs were the stories I hear 30 years later. Demographically it is probably not a bad time to get into the career with rail freight expanding and retirements looming.


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## caravanman (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi,

My own son is 19, and I think he has unrealistic expectations of employment. I am paying for a short training course for him, but without much hope, these days any good jobs are hard to find.

There are many "training" schools which encourage enrolement, as this is their way of generating income... no guarantee of walking into a job afterwards !!!

This website is for amateur train enthusiasts to chat, so few actual engineers will be responding to your questions.

You know your sons health, the degree of his medical situation, do you think you would feel ok with him at the controls of a passenger train at speed?

Putting "an old head on young shoulders" is hard to do, we parents have to allow our kids to make their own mistakes in life,

so no matter what "facts or evidence" that you put in front of him, he may not take your well meant advice on board.

Is there an Amtrak staff newspaper, that could be the place to ask your questions, or take him to a freight rail depot and ask for the supervisor... best to get info direct to your son, he will tend to accept it more from a third party, if he is anything like mine!

Good Luck!

Ed


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## RampWidget (Oct 7, 2012)

mom:

Some of the major freight RRs have moved all of their training back "in-house." There was a period where some of them preferred applicants that had gone to one of the tech schools first. The two Eastern majors (NS & CSX) seem to have moved back to almost 100% "in-house" training. As other posters have mentioned, most locomotive engineers start off as conductors first, then are selected for remote control locomotive operators, then for locomotive engineers, in that order. I can't speak directly about medical issues. Whether or not that would be a disqualification would be up to the medical department of the hiring RR.

Train & engine service is one of the few occupations left on RRs that does not require a college degree. However, as other posters have said, all RRs, due to demographics, will be needing many different types of employees in the near future, and most of those positions are at minimum "degree preferred" and most are "degree required." I suggest you see if he's willing to hedge his bet and go to college, get a four-year degree, and then seek RR employment. He can still be hired as a train & engine service employee with a college degree if that's what he still wants to do, and that also is a good foundation should he later decide to go into management.

Watch the career sections of the individual RR's Web sites (BNSF.com, etc) and good luck to both of you.

Edit: typo


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## stonesfan (Oct 7, 2012)

I can only agree with the sentiments here. He needs to make sure he has a plan b, because even if he makes it onto the footplate, he may decide that actually working as a train driver isnt as much fun as some seem to think it is. I'd always had a healthy interest in railways and wanted to be a train driver as a boy. Once I'd got through my teens unscathed, I got a job on the railways in the ticket office. After a year, I managed to switch to train as a driver. I loved the technical side and actually 'driving' the train. However, the unpredictable hours, the crap rolls down hill effect and generally not having the bodyclock to be able to deal with it, I soon started to dislike my job. After less than 8 months I asked to be withdrawn from training and as a result lost my job on the railways altogether.

Quite a few wannabee airline pilots who have always dreamed of making it to the cockpit often pay loads of money to get their licenses, but once earning a living as a pilot find certain parts of the job is simply not for them. No matter how much you like aviation, it soon wears thin if you are tired all the time.

However, going to technical school is a GOOD thing because it will give him something to fall back on should he make the grade but decide driving isnt for him. Either way, good luck and should he make the footplate and enjoy it, thats a great result!


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## gn2276 (Oct 7, 2012)

With Amtrak you have to work at lest 2 years as a condutor before you can become an engineer.


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## rms492 (Oct 7, 2012)

What about a light rail transit/subway operator? Does that count? what does it take to be one of those? A bus operator first? Has he considered that?

Could that help with experience for railroads? I have no clue.


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## gn2276 (Oct 7, 2012)

No you have to work at lest 2 years as an Amtrak conductor before you can become an Amtrak engineer.


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## Nathanael (Oct 7, 2012)

I will say that financially, avoiding college loans (which can't be discharged in bankruptcy) is well worth it. If he can go to college without getting loans, then college is well worth it, but if he can't... getting education in a way which doesn't require loans is going to leave him far, far better off.


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## George Harris (Oct 7, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> I will say that financially, avoiding college loans (which can't be discharged in bankruptcy) is well worth it. If he can go to college without getting loans, then college is well worth it, but if he can't... getting education in a way which doesn't require loans is going to leave him far, far better off.


The best way to either avoid or minimize college loans is to go to school as cheaply as possible and live as cheaply as possible while going. First and foremost avoid the "party scene" Aside from blowing lots of money, it is counterproductive educationally. Start with a local state junior college, preferably one where you can live at home. If you gotta have a car, get a cheap one that is a few years old. Are there still student jobs? If so, go for one.

In some fields there are co-op programs where you alternate school and work. These can also give you some reality on what the work, or for that matter any work will be like.


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## Shortline (Oct 7, 2012)

Tell you what-I don't want to discourage your son. If he thinks he wants to do this, then, it's what he should do. I still stand by my position that the upcoming medical standards may hurt him, but, I am not in any position to judge his condition and his suitability. I have been in the industry more than a decade, and, in retrospect, I frankly think I could have chosen a better profesion-There are certainly easier ways to make money. However, I frankly can't imagine doing anything else, and it's been a good life for me and my family. As long as Washington will keep their hands of RR retirement, (like Social Security, except paid by me, and my employer...) it will pay off in the long run. It's hard getting started-Low seniority means the worst jobs, the worst hours, and only when you're not cut off and unemployed. But, play your cards right, plan ahead, know where you want to go, and make it happen and you can make your way up into the management ranks. It's not for everyone for sure, but, it's been good for me. I still get to run trains, but on my schedule, I still travel, but I make my arrangments-There is a good life potential for engineers with management potiential and good communication and computer skills. So, my advice? Go for it. But, bypass those "pay to play" engineer training programs. Hire on with a freight RR, even a shortline RR, who will pay YOU to train. Work as a freight conductor, learn the ropes, learn the rules, learn the industry, THEN make a plan after a few years. It worked very well for me. I have run everything from 79 MPH passenger trains, to 10 MPH branchline locals, and it's all been good. Just know, it's more than a job, it really is a way of life-a way of life completely foriegn to most people. Some can adapt-Some decide to move on to other pursuits, but, he won't know, until he knows....Good luck. At least for now, they can't outsource the jobs!


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## RailFanLNK (Oct 15, 2012)

I live in Lincoln NE where there's a large amount of BNSF employees and just 50 miles from UP headquarters in Omaha NE. I have known alot of guys/gals who work for the railroad. The guys/gals in the shop have more stable hours. They may not be great hours but they pretty much know what there shift is and how long etc. All my friends who have been engineers seem to never have a life....at all! Tied to the pager (25 years ago) and tied to the cellphone now. I would HATE that lifestyle and applied with BNSF back in the early 80's when it was just BN. I never got on and am grateful I didn't. I would've loved the money and benefits but I know this guy would've hated the lifestyle. I learned in the mid-80's when I worked for an aviation company that I didn't like working nights, weekends, holidays, being called in at the drop of a hat after working all day etc. They job I have now I work 10-12 hours every day but am home every night and never work on the weekends or holidays. My family life has suffered (been divorced once) and there's alot of guys where I work that are on second and third marriages, but that is the trade off I guess. I deliver for a major package delivery company that has been around since 1907. They've been working people to death since 1907 and they're not going to change for me! :giggle:


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 15, 2012)

The other Posters have mentioned the Pros and Cons of being a Railroader, IMO it's not just a Job but a Calling! It gets in your Blood, the Willie Nelson Song about "Nightlife" applies to Railroading, "..It's not a Good life, but it's my Life..!" Go for it, You Only get One Go Around in Life! When it comes to earning a Living, might as well do what Interests us and what we Love!


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## Braniff747SP (Oct 16, 2012)

RailFanLNK said:


> They've been working people to death since 1907 and they're not going to change for me! :giggle:


Sounds like UPS runs you hard!


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## Ryan (Oct 17, 2012)

gn2276 said:


> No you have to work at lest 2 years as an Amtrak conductor before you can become an Amtrak engineer.


Not if you have prior experience.


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## lthanlon (Oct 18, 2012)

It's been mentioned here many times that the conductor is in charge of the train. Why aren't conductors required to be engineers first and then promoted from those ranks?


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## Shortline (Oct 18, 2012)

lthanlon said:


> It's been mentioned here many times that the conductor is in charge of the train. Why aren't conductors required to be engineers first and then promoted from those ranks?



It's kind of complicated....part of it's tradition, part of it's common sense, part of it makes no sense. Here's the deal, in a nutshell-Back in the day, when there were multiple crafts in T&E (Train and Engine Service) there were really two separate career paths.

Train Service-You hired on as a Brakeman/Switchman, (of which, depending on the RR, may have had it's own heirarchy....i.e. Rear Brakemen may get promoted to Head Brakeman, Switchman may have been higher than the Brakeman, etc etc. Again, different railroads, different methods). After several years working as a Brakeman or Switchman gaining operating experience eventually you could test and be promoted to Conductor. This was a BIG deal back then, and could take many years. The Conductor was TRULY in charge of the train back then.

Engine Service-You hired on as a Fireman, or Engineer Helper or similar term (depending on when in history we're talking about, and what RR) and shoveled coal/managed the fire/water, etc, and in diesel days, took care of keeping the diesels, steam generators, and other apparatus's running while the engineer stayed in the cab and ran the train. (remember, back then the diesels weren't as reliable, and the other devices like steam generators needed a bit of coaxing from time to time to do what they were supposed to!) Again, after several years of gaining experience, when an engineer slot opened up on the board, the senior Fireman would get promoted to Engineer.

So, essentially, back when there were 5 man crews, there was a natural progression from Trainman to Conductor, and from Fireman to Engnineer. They truly were two separate crafts.

Today, that's all gone-With just two on the train in most cases, most RR's progression goes from Conductor to Engineer. (yes, Amtrak has "Assistant Conductors" but I would bet the Asst Conductor is really a conductor, the title just establishes the heirarchy and pay based on seniorty...as in, an Ast Conductor COULD work as a Conductor, if called to work that job)

So, essentially, what we have today, is a promoted Conductor, who may be brand new, in charge of the train ran by an Engineer, who may have MANY years more seniority and experience. So, who's really in charge of the train? The Conductor.....BUT, a GOOD new Conductor better know when to not push the issue, if the Engineer makes a suggestion! After a year or two, depending on the RR, the Conductor either MAY go to Engine Service and learn to be an Engineer, or he MAY stay a Conductor, depending on the Railroad. Some RR's force conductors to go to Engine Service within a specified time frame (i.e. within 5 years) some don't, some RR's an Engineer can work as a Conductor, and vice versa, some don't- just all depends.

Some RR's have tried putting people right off the street through Engineer Training, and they never work a day on the ground. I personally am not a fan of that, I really think to be a good engineer, you really need to understand what your Conductor is doing on the ground, and the best way to learn that, is to do it. I personaly think it takes 1-2 years as a Conductor, to really be ready to get in the right seat. Some places have done it with some success, but in my opinion the more experience you have, the better off you'll be-Training someone to run a train that may have 18,000 HP and weigh over 14,000 TONS (or even 2500 HP and 2000 tons, for that matter....), is something you don't want to shortcut. There's just too many rules to know, too many proceedures to follow, and too many things that can go wrong, if you haven't had the experience of watching someone else deal with them first!

Any of that make any sense at all? As I like to say, the Railroad is 150 years of history, unimpeded by progress!


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## Trogdor (Oct 18, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Today, that's all gone-With just two on the train in most cases, most RR's progression goes from Conductor to Engineer. (yes, Amtrak has "Assistant Conductors" but I would bet the Asst Conductor is really a conductor, the title just establishes the heirarchy and pay based on seniorty...as in, an Ast Conductor COULD work as a Conductor, if called to work that job)


Not exactly. New-hire assistant conductors are (generally) not territory qualified.

They go through conductor training school, then get put into service to learn the job. Eventually they will qualify on the territory, but not on day one. So, in that case they could not work as a conductor.

However, a train will only have one conductor at a time, so any extra conductors will be called assistant conductors, whether or nor they are qualified.


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## Shortline (Oct 18, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> However, a train will only have one conductor at a time, so any extra conductors will be called assistant conductors, whether or nor they are qualified.


Right, that's what I was going for, for simplicity's sake.


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## lthanlon (Oct 18, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Any of that make any sense at all? As I like to say, the Railroad is 150 years of history, unimpeded by progress!


Actually, it does make sense. Thanks for the history lesson! Reminds me of when I have to explain that at a newspaper, printers and pressman don't do the same job.


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## jonathan richardson (Nov 18, 2013)

hi um whats the requirements to be a train operator for amtrak


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