# New direct Eurostar high-speed rail service London to Marseille



## beautifulplanet (Aug 10, 2014)

Already more than 2 weeks ago, a new high-speed rail service in Europe was announced starting next year:

Eurostar high-speed rail will offer daily service from London to Marseille, with a travel time of just 6h 15mins.

Sun-seekers from Britain and other travelers can hop on at London St. Pancras, and look out the window to see South of England and France from North to all the way to the South zooming by, in order to arrive in Marseille in the sunshine without even once leaving their seat.
Up to now, trips from London to Marseille required a transfer in France, making it more inconvenient and taking longer. On the way, the high-speed service will bypass the city center of Paris in order to save time, but it will stop in Lyon (travel time from London just 4 and a half hours) and Avignon (6 hour travel time).

As the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union (at least for now until the referendum), but is not a member of the Schengen agreement yet, travel onto the island requires an immigration check. So coming back towards the UK with the new service the travel times will be up to an hour longer, because of customs and immigration taking place at Lille (at least as long as Lyon, Avignon and Marseille train stations don't offer customs and immigration services). Many might be happy to hear that the new service will not be seasonal, but offered year-round.

The first train departs on May 1, 2015, and booking the new service should be possible starting upcoming December.

Already in the past Eurostar offered summer service to Avignon, still many might think this link to Marseille could prove to become a popular route, especially since it is offered year-round.
In the past when still having to transfer in order to get to Marseille from London, Eurostar offered specials sometimes as cheap as 69 British Pounds (approx. US$115) for a round-trip.
To some, this seemed like an amazing value since f.e. with Acela the cheapest one-way fare is $171, for travelling approx. 440mi within 6 and a half hours. The Eurostar offer included travelling approx. 780mi, in 6h 45mins, for effectively $63 one-way (half of $115 round-trip). Some might think that as it is about the distance from Providence to Charlotte - in 6h 45mins and for effectively $63 one-way - it is indeed a good value. Now many might be curious to see how the pricing for the direct service London to Marseille will be. Eurostar already announced that there will be specials for companies and business travelers.

Simon Calder of the Independent had more details about the new train service:

Trains to Europe on track at last
Saturday 02 August 2014
by Simon Calder
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/simon-calder-trains-to-europe-on-track-at-last-9641467.html

When in that article "load factors" and "thousands of empty seats" are mentioned, it might be helpful to know that Eurostar is a profitable high-speed rail company, and that its load factor is comparatively higher than that of other profitable rail companies.
F.e. Eurostar's load factor improved from 50% in 2007 to 64% in 2009, and increased even more to 70% afterwards.
At the same time, by many analysts, load factor is not seen as a key indicator for Eurostar as it is with airlines.
In addition, the load factor not being 90% on average in conjunction with the 33 inch seat pitch in standard class as well as 37 inch in standard premier leads to a comparatively better travel experience than f.e. that of low-cost airlines which in Europe often use a seat pitch of 29 inches and due to their business model can be very, very crowded.
As well as with Eurostar, all adult customers don't need to pay anything for bringing up to 2 pieces of luggage and one small item on board, while with Europe's low-fare airlines only hand luggage is free and already the first checked bag in peak travel seasons can easily cost 50 British Pounds (approx. US$84) round-trip.

Many might be looking forward to next spring's new travel option and come to the conclusion that once again, despite any political proceedings, Europe seems to grow closer together.


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## gaspeamtrak (Aug 10, 2014)

Sounds really exciting! I hope people will pick up on this great alternative to flying. I would certainly try it!


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## Anderson (Aug 10, 2014)

Longer-distance services like this are making me mourn the decision not to pursue the "Nightstar" project. 6:15 is getting towards a good overnight time en route.


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## Paulus (Aug 10, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Longer-distance services like this are making me mourn the decision not to pursue the "Nightstar" project. 6:15 is getting towards a good overnight time en route.


But overnight screws with track maintenance windows and kills intermediate ridership.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 10, 2014)

Beautiful Planet, you remind me of a song by the Allman Brothers.


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## caravanman (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi,

I think there may be some slight confusion over the fares quoted... The lowest return fare from London to Paris is £69, this is available by booking as much in advance as possible. Eurostar fares start off low bucket!

Just tried a random London to Marseilles fare and the lowest I could find was £59.50 (One Way) Change trains at Lille or Paris to TGV.

I did do a train trip home from Marseilles a few years back, and I remember feeling amazed that I could travel from the south of France to Nottingham in one day by train.

Ed


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## beautifulplanet (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you for your response.



Anderson said:


> Longer-distance services like this are making me mourn the decision not to pursue the "Nightstar" project. 6:15 is getting towards a good overnight time en route.


For many who would like to see as many rail travel options as possible available, the wish for night trains from London to continental Europe seems understandable. At the same time, it seem to some that the dynamics of demand for night trains are very different f.e. in the USA and in Europe. In the USA, for city-pairs where there is no rail alternative to a night train, but only a night train is operating, then of course many travelers might be "choosing" a night train. In Europe, there will nearly always be the option to choose between regular day trains and night trains. And for some, night trains in the USA are a little like museum trains, it's an experience to "travel the country like they used to", so to a considerable degree used by tourist for whom the train ride itself is part of the destination and who having no problem forking out even $1,000 or more for a sleeping compartment, in addition to the base fare. This "train experience" sleeper user segment for the most part doesn't exist with most night trains in Europe, it's mostly about getting from A to B (which is one of the reasons some travelers from the USA are disappointed when taking even the highest class of compartments in some European night trains, as it doesn't meet their expectations of service and/or at least some degree of luxury). Feeding into this is travel time, and this also would have applied to the Nightstar, which would have been powered by 87mph locomotives, which is significantly less than 186mph, so while day trains London to Marseille will have 6h 15mins, the night train would have been on the same route for possibly 10 or 12 hours, and it might not have been so attractive for many riders to spend so much additional time on the train. Feeding into this are the limited operating hours of night trains, which usually can just be used once every night, so for possibly 12 or 14 hours a day, while f.e. high-speed trainsets can be in operation for 18 or more hours a day, which might lead to more revenue for the operator. And with generally lower day train fares in many parts of Europe compared to fares in the US, f.e. discount high-speed rail QuiGo in France, being able to travel approx. 495miles - a distance like Boston to Washington D.C. - in 3h 15mins for 10 Euro (approx. US$13), it might become also more difficult to not let night train prices become too high in comparison, especially as night trains usually need more staff than day trains.

So at least some might come to the conclusion, that these aspects mentioned above are some of the reasons why night trains are a more challenging business case in Europe. As rail companies need to become profitable, or become even more profitable if they are already are profitable, it may seem like more and more night trains in Europe disappear:

In December 2009, SBB Swiss Railways stopped operating night trains to Rome.

In December 2012, SBB Swiss Railways discontinued the Zurich to Barcelona night train.

In December 2013, the Thello night train from Paris to Rome was discontinued.

Also in December 2013, the Elipsos night train from Paris to Barcelona was discontinued, as there is a convenient daytime high-speed rail alternative in place now.

And in 2013, SBB Swiss Railways and partners stopped operating the through coach from Moscow to Basel.

And for December 2014, DSB Danish Railways and Deutsche Bahn German Railways already announced that the Copenhagen to Basel "Aurora" CityNightLine train will cease to operate.

And in addition German Railways said other CityNightLine routes will be cut in coming years.

Many might think that they like the existence of night trains, because they give rail travelers more options, still it might seem like there is not much to be done about the fact that the travel market is changing. So many might think that in order to at least partially make up for that loss of travel options, more new rail services could be introduced, which currently at least in some regions in Europe seems to be the case.


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## beautifulplanet (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you for your reply.



caravanman said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think there may be some slight confusion over the fares quoted... The lowest return fare from London to Paris is £69, this is available by booking as much in advance as possible. Eurostar fares start off low bucket!


Yes, it might already be known to many that Eurostar fares start off low bucket, just like Amtrak fares or fares of most rail companies do. The 69 British Pounds round-trip advance-purchase fare is available for London to Paris indeed, and many might think this is already a really good deal in itself. 



caravanman said:


> Just tried a random London to Marseilles fare and the lowest I could find was £59.50 (One Way) Change trains at Lille or Paris to TGV.


Correct, 59.50 british pounds one-way might be the cheapest current fare. The reference above 69 british pounds round-trip was a special-offer during a past summer to the south of France.



caravanman said:


> I did do a train trip home from Marseilles a few years back, and I remember feeling amazed that I could travel from the south of France to Nottingham in one day by train.
> 
> Ed


Wow. Many might think that this is amazing indeed - Marseilles to Nottingham in one day, by rail!


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 10, 2014)

I found the Eurostar service to be fast, fun, and extremely practical. In fact the only real problem is making sure you book early enough to still have a seat. Even though trains were leaving every hour it wasn't uncommon for coach cabins to be sold out for days at a time. This is really just beginning to my understanding. In the future sixteen car Eurostar trains carrying around 900 people and traveling roughly 200 MPH are expected to be whisking passengers to cities such as Cologne and Amsterdam. New services from the likes of Deutsche Bahn could add even more cities like Frankfurt and Rotterdam.

According to Deutsche Bahn the Travel times from London look like this...

Brussels: 2:00

Amsterdam: 4:00

Cologne: 4:00

Frankfurt: 5:00

Rotterdam: 3:00

When it comes to passenger rail in Europe the future is looking bright.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 10, 2014)

Overnight = 0 Hours Wasted. Daytime HSR = A few hours wasted depending on the distance.

This ride would be fun, but 0 hours wasted would be more convenient. Can't see why Europeans are killing all the conventional trains and replacing them with daytime HSR.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 10, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Overnight = 0 Hours Wasted. Daytime HSR = A few hours wasted depending on the distance. This ride would be fun, but 0 hours wasted would be more convenient. Can't see why Europeans are killing all the conventional trains and replacing them with daytime HSR.


When I've traveled on European trains folks were doing business, having meetings, working on computers, eating, reading books, playing games, etc. That doesn't sound like wasted time to me. They tried the sleeping on trains thing for decades and decided to give it up. My guess is that they know better than us what works in their culture.


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## jis (Aug 10, 2014)

Depends on what one considers wasted time. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 10, 2014)

But it's really useful if you are going on vacation. Then you can get somewhere without taking an extra day of leave.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 10, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But it's really useful if you are going on vacation. Then you can get somewhere without taking an extra day of leave.


In Europe most of the working class has guaranteed time off. Few people are sweating a couple hours here or there on the way to a three or four week holiday. Here in the US there is no such thing as guaranteed vacation. Most of us have to scrape and scratch just to get a few days off in a row. Yet most our passenger rail network is slower, less frequent, and less dependable than other first world countries. Which is to say if anyone needs to worry about the speed and scheduling it's us and not them.


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## xyzzy (Aug 11, 2014)

Eurostar fares can be quite low if you book in advance. But if you're traveling on business and you decide on Wednesday afternoon that you want to travel from London to Paris the next morning, your ticket will be lots of quid.


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## caravanman (Aug 11, 2014)

I have enjoyed several overnight train rides in Europe, some of which no longer seem to show up as options on searches.

Paris to Rome return, Paris to Toulouse return, Paris to Madrid return, as well as Amsterdam to Copenhagen, and one or two others. Most of these have cost around 60 to 80 Euro's each way in a 4 berth compartment. The Amsterdam to Warsaw sleeper is on my "to do" list, I think that is around a 15 hour

sleeper ride.

While I can certainly understand the wish for ever faster trains, and I enjoyed the high speed TGV's, for me the journey is part of the fun, so having the view outside the window pass in a blur at several hundred MPH is not an actual incentive.

I am pleased to say we are entitled to a minimum of 28 days paid leave each year... I guess all the union bashers on this forum are happy with no statutory leave at all in the USA... 

Ed


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## jis (Aug 11, 2014)

caravanman said:


> I am pleased to say we are entitled to a minimum of 28 days paid leave each year... I guess all the union bashers on this forum are happy with no statutory leave at all in the USA...
> 
> Ed


I get 26 in the US of A, and am also eligible to buy upto 5 more days per year, which I usually do. But you have to work for many years to earn such privileges.


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## beautifulplanet (Aug 11, 2014)

Thank you for your participation in this conversation about rail services. This seems to be getting more and more off-topic from London-Marseilles direct services...



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Can't see why Europeans are killing all the conventional trains and replacing them with daytime HSR.


Of course it might be understandable for many, that when being used to North American rail travel, one might come to this statement.

It refers to night trains as the "conventional" trains. F.e. with Amtrak offering several long-distance services as night trains (many might be happy that Amtrak does offer these rail services and might fight politically for Amtrak to be able to continue to do so), one might think this is the norm. But while already in the US there are many Amtrak day trains, in many countries of Europe there is such a dense rail network, both local and long-distance, that these day trains would be the conventional trains. Night trains are rather special services in Europe. Also in Europe, the distances between many major cities are shorter. In the US, establishing day train service between f.e. Chicago and Los Angeles would be more challenging than day train service f.e. between Paris and Marseilles. By using the term "conventional train" in Europe, that would commonly refer to (day) trains that are not dedicated "high-speed" services. So it might seem like it, at least to some, that it's definitely sure that Europeans are not "killing all the conventional trains".  Instead several night trains were discontinued, and probably some more will be in the future, due to the changing markets. The "conventional trains" often even remain in service (if maybe not with the same frequency) when new high-speed rail services is starting, because often the conventional trains serve cities along the route that are being bypassed by new high-speed services. Not to speak of all the corridors where no high-speed rail exists yet, and never might be, because the cities served would be too small. So it might seem like conventional trains will survive... 

About the particular demise of the night trains, maybe the following example explains it quite good.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Overnight = 0 Hours Wasted. Daytime HSR = A few hours wasted depending on the distance.
> 
> This ride would be fun, but 0 hours wasted would be more convenient.


Sure it is legit to see it that way. Still it seems like there are a growing number of European residents and visitors who see it differently.

Many might already come to the conclusion, that all rail companies are facing competition, even if there is no rail company serving the same route: air travel, car travel and long-distance buses. And that's what has made it difficult for night trains.

The effects can be concretely illustrated f.e. with the example of Paris to Barcelona, and the route's discontinued night train.

It left Barcelona at 8.43p.m. and arrives in Paris at 8.37a.m.

The cheapest fare was 76 Euro (or 86 Euro more during summer and Easter), for a bed in a 4-bed Tourist sleeper.

At the same time, there is an easyJet flight leaving Barcelona airport 8.55p.m., and arriving Paris CDG airport 10.55p.m.

The flight costs 26 Euro.

Despite the impression expressed above "Overnight = 0 Hours Wasted", some travelers might think that using the plane they would get 1 day more out of their vacation, and using the night train they just arrive in Paris the next day, in addition to the flight being cheaper (at least it's perceived by many that way, though it might not be so much cheaper, because of baggage fees, payment fees, transportation to and from airport etc). With leaving in the evening, one would still have to get a hotel in Paris, so possibly the night train might not be much more expensive compared to flights + hotel. In case to want to save, one could take a Ryanair flight out of Barcelona airport at 6.30a.m. and arrive Beauvais-Tille Airport 8.35a.m. for 27 Euro. Or go for an extra inch of seat pitch and a nicer arrival airport and take Vueling at 6.00a.m. at Barcelona, arriving already 7.50a.m. at Paris Orly for 57 Euro. In both cases the traveler arrives in Paris nearly at the same time, but saves money, and still gets to spend the night in the comforts of the traveler's own bed.

The same applies to business travelers, who decades ago might have chosen night trains more often to be at the destination city early in the morning, but the rise of low-fare airlines and many new early morning arrivals, night trains might not be as popular for them as they once were.

And f.e. for people on vacation, who often don't have to happen to be so time-constrained, travel with high-speed rail might indeed be an option. And some might think could be good for the market share of rail travel, as there might be people who don't like to sleep on trains because they are light sleepers, or only rooms with 4 and 6 beds are available, but they are solo travelers or a couple, and they neither like to travel with strangers in the room, nor have the funds to buy all the extra berths without using them. So if travelers who previously had chosen flying when only having the choice between flying and a night train, now indeed take rail as high-speed rail comes into the picture, to many that obviously might seem like a good thing. And with a 6 and a half hour travel time arrival will be after noon, still it might be a nice start (or end, respectively) of the vacation to see the beautiful sea and countryside, and to avoid the hassles of air travel. And 6h 30mins is indeed shorter than the nearly 12 hours of a night train. Some might think that in order to make rail as successful as possible, high-speed rail does surely help.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Can't see why Europeans are killing all the conventional trains and replacing them with daytime HSR.


In conclusion some might think, it's the other way around, and it doesn't have so much to do with each other: Many European countries introduced high-speed rail, mainly because it makes sense economically (and not in order to replace night trains). And in case it is difficult for night trains to survive financially, due to the changing travel demands, mostly the increase in low-fare air travel, then there is not much one can do, except to advocate for them to be allowed to be subsidized, still even then at some point of time the demand for this way of traveling might be too low.

Also, some might think fortunately, there are still a considerable number of night trains left, even with the recent or upcoming discontinuations. And some also directly co-exist with high-speed rail on the same routes: F.e. between Paris to Milan (Milano) travelers have the choice of several TGV daily departures taking 7 hours (fares starting at 29 Euros) or taking the Thello night train taking 10 hours (fares starting at 39 Euros).

So many Europeans might like to travel by rail, and some might even make their voices heard in order to see continued investments in rail, to remove current arbitrarily set competitive disadvantages for rail in Europe and make rail as successful as possible to the benefit not only of the rail travelers but also of the economies of the respective European countries, and thus, for Europe as a whole.


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## caravanman (Aug 11, 2014)

I am amazed at the idea that you can buy days off work? Do you actually have to pay money to your employer ? 

Ed


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## jis (Aug 11, 2014)

Of course. The money gets taken out in equal installments out of each paycheck over the year. It happens to be one of the more popular benefits for those who have been around for a while to have some disposable income to spare. Typically one makes up way more than that in the year end bonuses so it typically is all in the noise. It is a little less in the noise if the bonuses ain't that good some year. Haven;t hit one of those in the last several years.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 11, 2014)

jis said:


> Of course. The money gets taken out in equal installments out of each paycheck over the year. It happens to be one of the more popular benefits for those who have been around for a while to have some disposable income to spare. Typically one makes up way more than that in the year end bonuses so it typically is all in the noise. It is a little less in the noise if the bonuses ain't that good some year. Haven;t hit one of those in the last several years.


Of course you've got to be making pretty good money in the first place to do this. I know I would never have been able to afford to do this during my working years. The company I worked for had a pretty good vacation policy, however, at the end I was getting 25 vacation days a week, which was more than enough. Unfortunately there's too many companies today whose business plans are based on low wages and few benefits.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 11, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> The company I worked for had a pretty good vacation policy, however, at the end *I was getting 25 vacation days a week*, which was more than enough.


While I don't doubt that was more than enough I'm not entirely sure that's actually possible. Unless you lived on a different planet or something.


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## jis (Aug 11, 2014)

It's a editorial glitch. He meant to say "year" not "week".

Yeah I basically get 25 vacation days per year + one floating holiday that I can designate on whichever day of the year I want it to be. The vacation buy is over and above that.


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