# Realistic Indianapolis IN - St. Louis MO schedules, rescheduling the C



## ParanoidAndroid (Feb 11, 2016)

I have rounded up the realistic schedules from the other thread (a fantasy land thread), and involves rescheduling the Cardinal, and putting an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO Cardinal to Texas Eagle connection. Maybe I'll talk about extending this new train through Ohio to connect with another Chicago-East Coast train, or something like that. I won't be talking about the Hoosier State

Philly, I will use your idea of using spreadsheets (Matt Parker anyone?) to organize the train schedules. Here we go.

CardinalSchedule.pdf

Thanks for reading!


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## Midlands Steve (Mar 3, 2016)

Closing the missing gap (IND-STL) makes a lot of sense. Yes, I would agree with a segment of the Cardinal running to STL, but I can also envision 3 or 4 other trains each way. This 240-mile segment could be a fast run. As far as I know, there is no direct air service between IND-STL. Future connections to the City of New Orleans (at EFG) and Texas Eagle and MO River Runner trains (at STL) would surely be a big plus. I had even thought about the possibility of the Texas Eagle originating in IND rather than Chicago (in order to get around the 750-mile rule and at the same reviving part of a former popular route).


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## neroden (Mar 3, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> I have rounded up the realistic schedules from the other thread (a fantasy land thread), and involves rescheduling the Cardinal, and putting an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO Cardinal to Texas Eagle connection. Maybe I'll talk about extending this new train through Ohio to connect with another Chicago-East Coast train, or something like that. I won't be talking about the Hoosier State
> 
> Philly, I will use your idea of using spreadsheets (Matt Parker anyone?) to organize the train schedules. Here we go.
> 
> ...


Start with the "changed schedule, works with connections to West Coast". *Extend it all the way to Boston*. Move the westbound back one hour so it arrives DC at 7 AM. It's now in the slot for #66/67. The consolidation of the two could be highly valuable to Amtrak in terms of equipment usage, although that's one long run.

So with this scheme, we're just handing the Chicago-Indianapolis, Chicago-Lafayette, and Chicago-Crawfordsville traffic to the daily Hoosier State (just to be clear).

Looking at the remaining top ridership & revenue pairs from the NARP datasheet, your times are good for Cincy-Chicago (very important) and Charlottesville-DC, Chicago-DC, Charlottesville-Chicago

But not Charlottesville-NY (they can take the Crescent or Lynchburger anyway).

And not for Charleston-Chicago, or Chicago-NY or Chicago-PHL (but we know anyone doing Chicago-NY is sightseeing, or they'd take the LSL).

And not for Cincy-NY, which is more problematic, though staying overnight in DC is always an option.

Let me try to count the consists:

#1 departs Chicago at 9:45 PM

#2 departs Chicago at 9:45 PM, while #1 is between DC and Baltimore

Meanwhile #1 arrives Boston at 8 AM and gets serviced

#1 departs Boston in the evening at 9:30 PM

An hour and 45 minutes later (remember time change) #3 departs Chicago at 9:45 PM, #1 is around Kingston RI

#4 departs Chicago at 9:45 PM, #1 is between Charlottesville and Staunton VA

#5 departs Chicago at 9:45 AM, #1 is between Cincy and Connersville IN

#1 arrives Chicago at 6:05 AM with plenty of time for cleaning.

So, five trainsets. As compared to 3 for a daily Cardinal and 2 for #66/67. Compared to a baseline of a daily Cardinal with a dining car and one sleeper, and #66/67 with one sleeper, Amtrak would need 2 more dining cars.

I'm not entirely convinced, but this is a very interesting concept schedule. An interesting alternative would be to terminate it at DC with cross-platform transfer to #66/67 and a through sleeper but that would require time for switching at DC.

Some other train could replace #66/67 for the Newport News-DC run.... or better, that run could be dropped and replaced with a Norfolk-DC run, since Newport News and Williamsburg seem to have awful ridership.

The state of Virginia might go for this schedule change.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 3, 2016)

neroden said:


> maxbuskirk said:
> 
> 
> > I have rounded up the realistic schedules from the other thread (a fantasy land thread), and involves rescheduling the Cardinal, and putting an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO Cardinal to Texas Eagle connection. Maybe I'll talk about extending this new train through Ohio to connect with another Chicago-East Coast train, or something like that. I won't be talking about the Hoosier State
> ...


I'd rather extend a Florida train up to Boston than the Cardinal. And the two times I suggested so people said it couldn't be done due to capacity limitations. I don't see the Cardinal being any different.


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## neroden (Mar 3, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'd rather extend a Florida train up to Boston than the Cardinal. And the two times I suggested so people said it couldn't be done due to capacity limitations. I don't see the Cardinal being any different.


I just told you -- it's *replacing #66/67*, so no capacity limitations. I'm not sure Max noticed that when he designed his schedule, but it was the thing I found most fascinating about it!


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 4, 2016)

Ah well, I never thought this would happen!

CIN-NYP would be the connection to CLE to the LL, or the OSL as discussed in the other thread "Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio". Ohio isn't cooperative, though, so maybe thru cars is an option if the LL is used (most likely).

IND-NYP would be Hoosier State to CHI then LSL or something to NYP.

CHW (Charleston) - CHI is good. CHW-NYP is not, but if it's really important, then extend a CIN-CLE down to CHW or something (IDK, haven't thought out schedules for that)

So . . there are ways to get around the NYP is bad timing thing.

The only problem is not connecting to any of the Florida trains, but I'm not sure how many people are actually interested in that. Only CIN and HUN/CHW would suffer from the unconnectivity, b/c they'd have to go up to CLE, then to PHL then back down or stay the night in WAS.

So basically this is truncating the Cardinal to WAS, but by coincidence, it can replace 66/67.

If ridership to Newport News and Williamsburg is bad (and I can see why and Norfolk would probably want more service), then going to Norfolk is better.

Another thing is IND-STL.

Cardinal 215A/300A

IND 245A

STL 845A/915A

KCY 255P?

As an afterthought, the Missouri River Runner has only 1 hour turns!

Eastbound, this connection doesn't work.

KCY 400P

STL 940P/1000P

IND 600A

KCY 815A

STL 155P

STL 700P

IND 300A

Cardinal 350A/359A


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 4, 2016)

If the whole premise is rescheduling the Cardinal to allow for starting a IND-STL leg, how can that happen with your schedule that arrives/leaves IND in the graveyard shift? Compared to the current Cardinal schedule, you've essentially taken CIN out of the graveyard shift only to put IND in it (as well as NYP and PHL). Yes, IND would have the Hoosier State to CHI but what about heading east? And how about going to/from PHL? CIN can leave at a good time but they'd be arriving/leaving NYP in the middle of the night and PHL at bad times. You've taken away two attractive destinations from them (as well as from CVS). Not to mention, CIN-IND should be a decent city pair under normal circumstances due to the short distance. As for combining with the Night Owl, you've added BOS as a stop. I don't see anyone going to CHI on this train and requiring two overnights. They're probably not going to IND to arrive in the middle of the night. So you really own gain BOS-CIN with the Night Owl/Cardinal combo.

To me, the Cardinal has just an obvious hole in the middle with low population (West Virginia) that having the train travel anywhere else during the graveyard shift will hurt ridership in a major market. As much as I want to give CIN better times, I don't want to screw three major cities (including one of the two largest unique markets to the Cardinal) to do so.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 4, 2016)

It's just a coincidence that it can replace 66 67 and if it runs on this schedule, it basically will.

And this is why I gave up on this schedule in the other thread, but neroden mentioned that it was interesting. Not good, but interesting.

CHI 1145P

IND 550A/629A

CIN 947A/957A

HUN 139P/146P

CVS 940P/949P

WAS 1249A

NYP 428A

BOS 1130A

That will most definitely not work. . .

Unless the Pocahontas route is used 

*Philly grumbles in irritation*

Actually no route will work with this.

Lets just stick to the original plan unless something is so great about this one.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 4, 2016)

Another thing is STL to IND. If we delay the Southwest Chief at KCY for a couple hours, then stuff might work. I'll ask over on the other forum for stuff.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 4, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Another thing is STL to IND. If we delay the Southwest Chief at KCY for a couple hours, then stuff might work. I'll ask over on the other forum for stuff.


I'm not in favor of that because the westbound arrival into KCY is late (10:11pm) already. CHI-KCY is actually the #1 city pair on the SWC and KCY contributed 69,922 passengers to the SWC in 2014 so I would be against hurting it. Maybe you can push it back an hour or an hour but two hours back pushes it after midnight (90 minutes back, assuming the same layover time is required, pushes the westbound departure to LAX after midnight).

http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf

http://narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/cities_2014.pdf


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 4, 2016)

Ok. I asked Seaboard92 for any STL to IND schedules to see how many hours the trip takes for real.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 5, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Ok. I asked Seaboard92 for any STL to IND schedules to see how many hours the trip takes for real.


I haven't gotten a message. What routing are you looking at? I'll check the timetables in the office tomorrow morning for you.


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## jis (Mar 5, 2016)

Pending more upto date info from Seaboard, here is the timetable of that route for the National Limited, when it ran:

Indy: 10:25

Terre Haute: 11:50

Effingham: 13:00

St. Louis: 15:30

St. Louis: 13:35

Effingham: 15:30

Terre Haute: 16:35

Indy: 18:15

Note that in April Indy and Terre Haute are effectively in Central time, i.e. there is no time zone difference between Indy and St. Louis as noted in the timetable. See: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19780430&item=0033


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 5, 2016)

Thanks Seaboard!

I meant Indianapolis IN - Terre Haute IN - Effingham IL - St Louis MO. It took 5 hours before it got discontinued, but it's likely even slower today. I estimated 7 hours and Philly estimated about the same, but I wanted to see how long it takes for real.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 5, 2016)

I know I sound like a homer but are there any east-west tracks going through Champaign/Urbana? If a STL-IND train went through there, you'd have more business than through Effingham although Effingham if scheduled appropriately would allow connections to/from the CONO.


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## jis (Mar 5, 2016)

Isn't the route via Effingham the current premier CSX freight route from Indy to St. Louis? It should be extremely good condition. Unless there are congestion issues due to removal of trackage, it should be able to sustain speeds similar to what was done back then. Of course if trackage has been removed it is a different story.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I know I sound like a homer but are there any east-west tracks going through Champaign/Urbana? If a STL-IND train went through there, you'd have more business than through Effingham although Effingham if scheduled appropriately would allow connections to/from the CONO.


Not if you want to go through Indy from the east. You can theoretically doit I suppose, involving a complex backup move in Lafayette. But it would also involve some serious gymnastics to get onto a line headed towards St. Louis from Campaign. Simply not worth it. Take a look at map IL 19 and 20 in SPV Great Lakes West, and IN 9 and 10 in SPV Great Lakes East maps and you will see what I mean. And all this is addition to the fact is Champaign is way too far north to be used by any Indy - STL service even if there were usable tracks and connections. Again, please look at maps before Homering away.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 5, 2016)

Ok I've taken a look at the Great Lakes Division Timetable. The route has currently a 60 mph speed limit across 80-85 precent of it. And the lowest speed limit is 40. I don't have the run times on stations yet. As I need the mileposts on the towns. But I'll get that a bit later. And 60 would put that at FRA track Class 4. Which is 60 for freight and 80 for passenger. So the run times might not be that bad.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 5, 2016)

But now that has me curious about a NYP-BUF-CLE-IND-STL run. I'll come up with a timetable for that a bit later


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 6, 2016)

If the speed limit is 60mph, then the STL-IND run is, amazingly, 4.5 to 5 hours long.

So,

Cardinal 1115P/1200N

IND 1215P

STL 415P/430P

KCY 1010P

SWC would be 1041P/1115P.

Coming back doesn't work unless some schedules are shifted.

LAX 510P

ABQ 1042A/1110A

LAJ 631P/641P

KCY 624A

KCY 715A

STL 1255P/110P

IND 710P

Cardinal 750P/759P

CIN 1117P/1127P

Eastbound is tighter than westbound.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 6, 2016)

Actually the track is 79 mph track with little to no improvements. CSX runs at 60 but the FRA states that with the current state of repair passengers can move at 80. So you could factor that in as well.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 6, 2016)

Well, that brings it down to 4 hours. Although possibly 3, I'm factoring in the different speeds, station stops and possible delays.

CIN 731A/741A

IND 1115A/1215P

STL 315P/330P

KCY 910P (almost current schedule)

KCY 815A (current schedule)

STL 155P/210P

IND 710P/759P

CIN 1117P/1127P

So CIN is still late at night unless everything's rescheduled by an hour, which I feel uncomfortable doing with the SWC.


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## jis (Mar 6, 2016)

I would not believe the four or three hour theory. There is more to scheduling and running a train than the MAS. It is a safe hypothesis to go with what the National Limited did as a starter.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 6, 2016)

OK, had and inkling feeling that said that.

So the SWC should be rescheduled, or the connection should just be abandoned. I'm not going to push CIN over 11:30pm.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 6, 2016)

I was going to say I can't speak for how busy it is. But it's mostly single main with some sidings. And a lot of intersecting lines. So delays a plenty. And every crossing has a thirty mph restriction on it and related interchange sidings


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## jis (Mar 6, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> I was going to say I can't speak for how busy it is. But it's mostly single main with some sidings. And a lot of intersecting lines. So delays a plenty. And every crossing has a thirty mph restriction on it and related interchange sidings


Would you happen to know if ti was double track back in the '70s? If so then maybe even the National Limited times are not feasible anymore.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 6, 2016)

According to a 1979 map in a conrail timetable most of the line was double tracked. From E St Louis to Smithboro, IL, Brownstown to Casey, and Terre Haute to IND. And I'm guessing I don't know for a fact at one time during New York Central times might have been double tracked. I might take some photos of the timetables if anyone wants to see it.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 8, 2016)

Most of the double track has been ripped up. The right of way is still there. But the second track isn't. Now Terre Haute to IND is all double track


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## Anthony V (Mar 11, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> I have rounded up the realistic schedules from the other thread (a fantasy land thread), and involves rescheduling the Cardinal, and putting an Indianapolis IN - St Louis MO Cardinal to Texas Eagle connection. Maybe I'll talk about extending this new train through Ohio to connect with another Chicago-East Coast train, or something like that. I won't be talking about the Hoosier State
> 
> Philly, I will use your idea of using spreadsheets (Matt Parker anyone?) to organize the train schedules. Here we go.
> 
> ...


Here's a better plan: First off, make the Cardinal daily. This new route could then operate as a section of the Cardinal, splitting off at IND. Next, it should go a step further and extend the new section to Kansas City, creating another connection to the SWC. The current schedules of the Cardinal and River Runner would not change. The run from IND to KCY would take about 11 hours. and would have the same stops the National Ltd. had, with an additional stop in Greencastle, IN and the River Runner. A rough schedule for the section would be:

WESTBOUND:​Dp. IND: 6:30 AM​Ar. GCS: 7:15 AM​Ar. TRH: 8:00 AM​Ar. EFG: 9:00 AM​Ar. STL: 11:30 AM​Dp. STL: 12:00 PM​Ar. KWD: 12:29 PM​Ar. WAH: 1:06 PM​Ar. HEM: 1:34 PM​Ar. JEF: 2:22 PM​Ar. SED: 3:39 PM​Ar. WAR: 4:09 PM​Ar. LEE: 4:50 PM​Ar. IDP: 5:06 PM​Ar. KCY: 5:40 PM​​EASTBOUND:​Dp. KCY: 12:00 PM​Ar. IDP: 12:19 PM​Ar. LEE: 12:36 PM​Ar. WAR: 1:19 PM​Ar. SED: 1:49 PM​Ar. JEF: 3:03 PM​Ar. HEM: 3:48 PM​Ar. WAH: 4:16 PM​Ar. KWD: 4:58 PM​Ar. STL: 5:40 PM​Dp. STL: 6:10 PM​Ar. EFG: 8:40 PM​Ar. TRH: 9:40 PM​Ar. GCS: 10:25 PM​Ar. IND: 11:10 PM​Dp. IND: 11:59 PM​​This schedule would allow for convenient connections to the CONO and IL state-supported trains, TE and SWC, and would add a midday frequency to the River Runner.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 11, 2016)

Ok, we wanted to reschedule the Cardinal to get CIN with better schedule.

Please read "Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio" to get more details on that.

So connections won't work unless IND to STL is fast enough .

Sorry it wasn't explained.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 11, 2016)

80 mph running the entire way what's the distance. Miles wise


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 27, 2016)

Really, if 80 mph . . . 240 miles, so 3 hours. But likely realistic paranoia about additional delays still brings it to 4.5 - 5 hours, unless there's some good evidence that these delays are minimal and there's nothing else slowing this train down.

_______________________________

4

LAX 555P

ABQ 1127A/1155A

LAJ 716P/726P

KCY 709A/758A

CHI 330P

Thru cars 4-314-50 KCY-STL-IND

KCY 730A

STL 110P/130P

IND 730P

50

CHI 115P

IND 720P/759P

CIN 1117P/1127P

CVS 1110A/1119A

WAS 219P

NYP 558P

_______________________________

51

NYP 1230P

WAS 445P

CVS 728P/737P

CIN 716A/726A

IND 1100A/1145N

CHI 405P

Thru cars 51-313-3 IND-STL-KCY

IND 1140A

STL 340P/400P

KCY 940P

3

CHI 300P

KCY 1011P/1045P

LAJ 815A/830A

ABQ 355P/445P

LAX 815A

______________________________

Note the time change from STL-IND.


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## Palmetto (Mar 28, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> But now that has me curious about a NYP-BUF-CLE-IND-STL run. I'll come up with a timetable for that a bit later


I believe that was the routing of New York Central's _*Southwest Limited*_ or some such name.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > But now that has me curious about a NYP-BUF-CLE-IND-STL run. I'll come up with a timetable for that a bit later
> ...


What are the intermediate stops/path between CLE and IND?


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## CCC1007 (Mar 28, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > But now that has me curious about a NYP-BUF-CLE-IND-STL run. I'll come up with a timetable for that a bit later
> ...


The southwest limited is the name that Amtrak replaced Super Chief with when ATSF revoked their right to use the name due to service reduction. This train continues on as the Southwest Chief, restoring the Chief name after improved service levels got the approval of ATSF. Of course there could have been others that used the name before this piece of history but I am not aware of such trains.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


The Eastbound St. Louis - New York train was named _*The Southwestern*_. The Westbound New York - St Louis train was called _*The Knickerbocker.*_



> What are the intermediate stops/path between CLE and IND?


In the 1965 timetable the stops between CLE and IND were:

Gallion, Bellefontaine, Sidney, Union City, Winchester, Muncie, Anderson, Indianapolis

And between Indy and St. Louise were:

Green Castle, Terre Haute, Paris, Mattoon, St. Louise.

Westbound it took 4:30 from CLE to IND and 4:55 from IND to STL. Eastboung it took 4:33 for STL - IND and 6:45 IND - CLE. Why the extra time between IND - CLE, I don't know. In both directions it had a close to an hour's stop at CLE. IND was 10 to 20 mins.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 28, 2016)

I think IND was on Central time back then, so westbound would have been 5:30 and eastbound 5:45.

(I'm guessing)


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## jis (Mar 28, 2016)

You're almost right. Actually it is the difference between EST and EDT.  CLE is EDT and IND is EST, and of course STL is CDT, though the timetable quotes its time in both CDT and CST.

Corrected

Westbound it took 5:30 from CLE to IND and 4:55 from IND to STL. Eastboung it took 4:33 for STL - IND and 5:45 IND - CLE. In both directions it had a close to an hour's stop at CLE. IND was 10 to 20 mins.


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