# 14 Rescued From HMS Bounty



## The Davy Crockett (Oct 29, 2012)

While a tall ship is not a common form of transportation these days, they still do move people - on either cruises or postioning moves. The HMS Bounty, a replica of the infamous original, is foundering off the coast of North Carolina in the approximate area known as "The Graveyard of the Atlantic." Fourteen crew members have been rescued by the Coast Guard, but two remain missing. Here is a link to an article on this tragedy: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49596412

Originally built for the 1962 movie about the events that occured on the original ship, she's wintered in St. Petersburg, FL for a while. Mrs. Crockett and I toured her a few years back and she is a beauty. I believe the ship summered in New London, CT, so I'm guessing she was headed back to her winter port. I could second guess why she was where she was, but that does no good now.


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## MrFSS (Oct 29, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> While a tall ship is not a common form of transportation these days, they still do move people - on either cruises or postioning moves. The HMS Bounty, a replica of the infamous original, is foundering off the coast of North Carolina in the approximate area known as "The Graveyard of the Atlantic." Fourteen crew members have been rescued by the Coast Guard, but two remain missing. Here is a link to an article on this tragedy: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49596412
> 
> Originally built for the 1962 movie about the events that occured on the original ship, she's wintered in St. Petersburg, FL for a while. Mrs. Crockett and I toured her a few years back and she is a beauty. I believe the ship summered in New London, CT, so I'm guessing she was headed back to her winter port. I could second guess why she was where she was, but that does no good now.


Scott - I just heard on CNN that she has now sunk. The two are still missing.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 29, 2012)

MrFSS said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > While a tall ship is not a common form of transportation these days, they still do move people - on either cruises or postioning moves. The HMS Bounty, a replica of the infamous original, is foundering off the coast of North Carolina in the approximate area known as "The Graveyard of the Atlantic." Fourteen crew members have been rescued by the Coast Guard, but two remain missing. Here is a link to an article on this tragedy: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49596412
> ...


Tom,

Thanks for the update, even if it is not good news. How sad. I hope they find the two who are missing, but it sure does not appear good for them in such heavy seas.


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## Anderson (Oct 29, 2012)

I will admit that on seeing this, I thought it was a practical joke or exceedingly out-of-date news item, but...yeesh. Not good to hear. I hate to ask, but where were they and what were they doing there in this weather? It's not like the storm came out of nowhere.


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## Ryan (Oct 29, 2012)

She was en route from New England to Florida.

According to the news right now, they've found one of the two, so they're only looking for one last person (the captain). Now that it's dark out there, chances are pretty slim.


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## leemell (Oct 30, 2012)

One is dead and one missing. The missing person is the Captain.


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## Blackwolf (Oct 30, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I will admit that on seeing this, I thought it was a practical joke or exceedingly out-of-date news item, but...yeesh. Not good to hear. I hate to ask, but where were they and what were they doing there in this weather? It's not like the storm came out of nowhere.


The best reasoning for them to have been where they were is that the ship and her crew were taking a chance. The Captain was very well aware of Sandy, and did not want to sail into the storms wrath anymore than he had to. But considering that this ship was not new, and had been in bad weather before, he likely thought this was something they could handle. Their goal was to take a route as close to shore as possible, shoot south in a hurried manner, and manage to squeak by Sandy to the west before the storm turned inland. They were using information from the National Hurricane Center to plot their course and speed, and were in regular contact with the ship's owners on land.

Had the projections for Sandy's speed and direction as originally foretasted happened, the HMS Bounty would likely still be with us and would be tying up in Florida soon. Unfortunately for the ship and her crew, Sandy sped up and turned too soon, catching the sailors before they could get past the hurricane. The rest? It is now another sad tale of the sea.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 30, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> The Captain was very well aware of Sandy, and did not want to sail into the storms wrath anymore than he had to.


From my perspective all available evidence appears to point to the opposite conclusion. Either he was unaware or he simply did not care. Which may not be much of a problem if he was the only person aboard a tiny dingy and he made no attempt to call for anyone else as he sank to his watery grave, but risking the lives of his crew and their rescue team for a trip that cannot possibly be interpreted as anything close to necessary looks like pure hubris to me.


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## Rail Freak (Oct 30, 2012)

_We will certainly miss her in theTampa Bay area!!!! _


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## Anderson (Oct 30, 2012)

Ok, I'll go ahead and call this a Monday Morning Quarterback call right off the bat, but...good Lord! Why didn't they turn in at Norfolk? Yes, this is an unfortunate accident, but especially as big as Sandy was getting while down by the Bahamas (and getting larger), this is like trying to beat a train at a crossing. Given where they were and their likely speed, it's not like Norfolk was out of reach when the storm went "off course" on them. File this one under the category of "Tried to beat train; train won".

This would be more excusable if he'd been way out in the middle of the ocean, but... *shakes his head* This isn't the 18th Century; there were (and are) places to drop anchor and let the storm by_. _Mind you, I don't have the mind of a mariner (it's much closer to the actuary setting the premium on his company's insurance policy), but...ugh.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 30, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Ok, I'll go ahead and call this a Monday Morning Quarterback call right off the bat, but...good Lord! Why didn't they turn in at Norfolk? Yes, this is an unfortunate accident, but especially as big as Sandy was getting while down by the Bahamas (and getting larger), this is like trying to beat a train at a crossing. Given where they were and their likely speed, it's not like Norfolk was out of reach when the storm went "off course" on them. File this one under the category of "Tried to beat train; train won".
> 
> This would be more excusable if he'd been way out in the middle of the ocean, but... *shakes his head* This isn't the 18th Century; there were (and are) places to drop anchor and let the storm by_. _Mind you, I don't have the mind of a mariner (it's much closer to the actuary setting the premium on his company's insurance policy), but...ugh.


You are right, it is Monday Morning Quarterbacking Anderson, but nevertheless, you bring up this...

From NOAA:



> 1-2-3 Rule
> 
> This is the single most important aid in accounting for hurricane forecast track errors (FTE). Understanding & use of this technique should be mandatory for any vessel operating near a hurricane. The rule is derived from the latest 10-year average FTE associated with hurricanes in the North Atlantic. While this rule was derived in the North Atlantic, it is a good technique to use in any tropical cyclone basin. Application of the rule requires information from the TCM and is extremely important to remaining clear of a hurricane at sea. See Marine Safety Rules of Thumb at the bottom of the page for details on applying this most important technique.
> 
> ...


While Sandy certainly did 'explode' from the early forecasts - one wonders what the Bounty's hurry was. But then we are second guessing what are now obviously bad choices and the captain is no longer with us to explain his thinking...


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## Anderson (Oct 30, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I'll go ahead and call this a Monday Morning Quarterback call right off the bat, but...good Lord! Why didn't they turn in at Norfolk? Yes, this is an unfortunate accident, but especially as big as Sandy was getting while down by the Bahamas (and getting larger), this is like trying to beat a train at a crossing. Given where they were and their likely speed, it's not like Norfolk was out of reach when the storm went "off course" on them. File this one under the category of "Tried to beat train; train won".
> ...


Hopefully _somebody_ will be able to explain at some sort of inquest. I guess what _really_ bugs me is that the ship sunk on Monday, while Sandy had already been in the region for well over a day. Even being quite conservative on time, that would have put them in a good range to at least pop into the Chesapeake Bay (and get out of the channel or dock if need be to avoid being a shipping hazard).

Also...



> Also, the rule does not account for the typical expansion of the wind field as a system transitions from hurricane to extratropical gale/storm.


The transition didn't catch anyone by surprise. The sheer scope, sure, but it feels like somebody wasn't even bothering to read NHC forecasts with a hurricane running around. I _really_ want to know what _wasn't_ going through his head. It's a tragedy that the captain died, but it's even more of one that somebody else died _and_ an expensive ship was lost in the process.


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## Ryan (Oct 31, 2012)

You don't want to be in port when a hurricane comes through. You'll either be pounded against the dock, or drag anchor and run aground. There's a reason that the Navy clears the harbor when a storm approaches.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 31, 2012)

Ryan said:


> You don't want to be in port when a hurricane comes through. You'll either be pounded against the dock, or drag anchor and run aground. There's a reason that the Navy clears the harbor when a storm approaches.


That's was my understanding too (and I'm marginally aware of navigate waters).

I'm sure people thought the cruise ship(s) leaving NYC right before the storm were crazy for heading out into the storm, but I figured they were going to out to avoid as much of the storm as possible and would rather take their chances on the open seas then be in port.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, out of harms way. And again, this is Mondy Morning Quarterbacking, but there is certain point where it is better to possibly lose the ship, with all crew members accounted for, then to lose the ship and crew members.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 31, 2012)

Ryan said:


> You don't want to be in port when a hurricane comes through. You'll either be pounded against the dock, or drag anchor and run aground. There's a reason that the Navy clears the harbor when a storm approaches.


Wondered if you would beat the Master Chief to this one Ryan! As somneone who has been through a Typhoon in the Pacific I can sympathize with the Crew and know how terrifying the Sea can be!  Glad I wasnt Aboard Her , the Captain probably was under Orders, but as we know the Captain always gets the Blame Anytime Something happens Aboard Ship!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 31, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> Wondered if you would beat the Master Chief to this one Ryan! As somneone who has been through a Typhoon in the Pacific I can sympathize with the Crew and know how terrifying the Sea can be!  Glad I wasnt Aboard Her , the Captain probably was under Orders, but as we know the Captain always gets the Blame Anytime Something happens Aboard Ship!


It seems odd that the captain of a civilian ship would be incapable of preventing disaster simply because someone who wasn't aboard decided it was worth the risk.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know about the Bounty's chain of command, but when I was on a tall ship, it was the captain who decided where we would ride out the nor'easter we encountered. (Which was in Oyster Bay, NY.)


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## Ryan (Oct 31, 2012)

It's also worth noting that had the diesels not quit, the ship would most likely come through the storm without issues.

Contrast that with the fact that the ship would have almost certainly been damaged beyond repair had she remained pierside, and the decision to get underway looks a little more reasonable. It's not unreasonable for the captain (and/or the ships owners) to assume that the ship could have weathered the storm at sea.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 31, 2012)

And one more time again, this is all Monday Morning Quaterbacking, but the fact of the matter is the diesels did quit, probably from taking on water in rough seas, the ship sank in deep water, and life was lost. Contrast that to a ship which might have been salvagable if she was in shallow water and no lives lost. Which would have been the better choice?


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## Ryan (Oct 31, 2012)

In hindsight the answer is obvious.

Given the information available at the time, as a 7 year naval officer including a 2 year tour as a Navigator where this kind of thing is my job, I get the ship underway and ride it out at sea. It sucks that it ended up the way it did, but I'll accept a low probability/high consequences risk over a near certain/major consequences risk any day of the week.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 31, 2012)

I understand your perspective, but a tall ship is not a state of the art modern navel vessel.


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## leemell (Nov 1, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> And one more time again, this is all Monday Morning Quaterbacking, but the fact of the matter is the diesels did quit, probably from taking on water in rough seas, the ship sank in deep water, and life was lost. Contrast that to a ship which might have been salvagable if she was in shallow water and no lives lost. Which would have been the better choice?


Deep water is better, the risks are higher in shallow water, especially in the North Carolina area.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 1, 2012)

High risk low probability choices are what make terms like _Titanic_ household names. Same thing with _Chernobyl_ and _Fukushima_ for that matter. When you have seven billion people living on the same tiny marble "low probability" ceases to be a trivial remainder. This particular story is nowhere near the level of a black swan event, but it's still interesting to consider what we each value the most, what we fear the least, and what we're willing to risk in the process.


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## The Davy Crockett (Nov 2, 2012)

The Coast Guard has launched a formal investigation into the sinkiing of the Bounty. HERE is a link to an article in The Christian Science Moniter.

From the article:



> “The thing that’s striking to a lot of people is why Walbridge put himself in that position … when he had another avenue out: He could’ve headed eastward into the Atlantic and waited off of Halifax or Nova Scotia,” says Sal Mercogliano, a former merchant marine who is now a maritime historian at Campbell University, in Buies Creek, N.C. “Why cross the path of a hurricane and put yourself in such a precarious position? It’s hard for a lot of people to fathom.”
> 
> One captain, Dan Moreland of the tall ship Picton Castle, expressed disbelief at Walbridge’s decision in an interview Wednesday with the Nova Scotia Chronicle Herald. “When I first heard the Bounty was out there, I thought, ‘You’ve got to be kidding.’ This is a huge system, there is no way of avoiding this, there’s no dodging and weaving around it.”


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## TimePeace (Nov 3, 2012)

Boatyard break room talk:

One of our crew was working in a yard in Boothbay about 10 years ago - the Bounty was in that shop and having extensive work done at the time. Another friend and neighbor (not working with us now) re-planked the bottom, with 3 inch thick oak. "Miles of planking" was the expression used. The frames (ribs) of the Bounty are two eight-by-eight inch solid oak side by side, in other words 16x8.

Most of the ship was very new and in very seaworthy condition.

No wooden structure so large can be entirely rigid. Hence, in heavy going, there is constant shifting and movement of the planks, so some leakage is inevitable. While incredibly strong, the hull of any wooden ship is not capable of withstanding sustained heavy weather in any way comparable to modern steel warships. Nor can it steam away from bad weather faster than the weather is moving. Modern ships often can.

While the vessel itself is often safer at sea than in port, the fact remains that the crew members are in minimal danger when in port. It might beat itself to pieces against a pier but no one has to remain on board. And if at anchor, crew is much more easily moved to safety if necessary.

When such a ship has taken on a great deal of water, as it rises to the crest of a large sea (30-foot waves in this case), and then the sea drops away, there is huge pressure bearing outward against planks which are fastened to the outside of the frames. Much of that water inside the hull is above the sea for moments, and fastenings are hugely stressed over and over.

Informal consensus (i.e. Monday-morning quarterbacking): The captain was well qualified to run that ship but his wisdom in setting out on the course he chose, with such a storm brewing, is at best highly questionable, and at worst downright stupid.

Condolences to the lost crew members' families.


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