# Merger of Frontier and Spirit Airlines



## jiml (Feb 7, 2022)

Frontier and Spirit Are Merging to Create Fifth-Largest Airline in the United States (msn.com)


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 7, 2022)

jiml said:


> Frontier and Spirit Are Merging to Create Fifth-Largest Airline in the United States (msn.com)


I like how they spin this as customer friendly while leaving out that it reduces customer choice and further solidifies mediocre service standards.

[post was edited to remove text no longer applicable to this new thread]


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## adamj023 (Feb 7, 2022)

I expected Spirit and Frontier to merge and was not surprised. I wonder which name they will keep. As Frontier will have the majority control I am wondering if the Spirit brand will be changed to Frontier. The Yellow spirit livery and branding is really bad. Two bad airlines combined should lead to a race to the bottom though customers will benefit from having more airplanes and routes under a single airline.


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## Cal (Feb 7, 2022)

I've heard that Spirit branding is the one that will be kept, but can't verify it.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 7, 2022)

Cal said:


> I've heard that Spirit branding is the one that will be kept, but can't verify it.



I would never, ever consider flying on either of these airlines or any combination of them!


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## me_little_me (Feb 7, 2022)

Mergers and buyouts are mostly good for executives and bad for customers and employees. I expect the same to be true for this merger.


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## flitcraft (Feb 7, 2022)

And the name chosen for the merged entity has little to do with who is the real buyer and seller--whose CEO and bigwigs run the new merged entity. See America West and US Air, which kept the US Air moniker and was run by America West corporate, and later US Air and American, which kept American's name and livery but is still America West in the boardroom, I believe. (True of Boeing, too, whose merger with Mc Donnell Douglas led to the disastrous change in leadership which led to the change in culture from an engineering-first to a shareholder-value culture, which as we now know led to the 737 Max fiasco.


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## me_little_me (Feb 8, 2022)

flitcraft said:


> And the name chosen for the merged entity has little to do with who is the real buyer and seller--whose CEO and bigwigs run the new merged entity. See America West and US Air, which kept the US Air moniker and was run by America West corporate, and later US Air and American, which kept American's name and livery but is still America West in the boardroom, I believe. (True of Boeing, too, whose merger with Mc Donnell Douglas led to the disastrous change in leadership which led to the change in culture from an engineering-first to a shareholder-value culture, which as we now know led to the 737 Max fiasco.


That was also true when TTA (Trans-Texas Airlines) which, I believe, changed their name to TIA (Texas International Airlines) bought Continental and kept the Continental name.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 8, 2022)

me_little_me said:


> That was also true when TTA (Trans-Texas Airlines) which, I believe, changed their name to TIA (Texas International Airlines) bought Continental and kept the Continental name.


Good Ole "Tree Top Airlines"!


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## Exvalley (Feb 8, 2022)

The merger makes sense as far as their route maps are concerned. 

While mergers are seldom good for the consumer as far as low prices are concerned, I am encouraged by the new LLCs that are trying to make a go of it, such as Breeze and Avelo. You also have Allegient as a strong player.

Spirit and Frontier both offer a VERY affordable premium seat. Spirit offers a domestic first class seat (2x2) without the first class services. Frontier is a traditional seat (3x3), but with lots of legroom. It will be interesting to see which model they go with after the merger. Hopefully it is the Spirit model with the 2x2 seating. It's one of the best deals out there.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2022)

According to Seat Guru both Frontier and Spirit's standard seat pitch is as little as 28 inches. So, if you run late or get displaced by IRROPS you may have an absolutely miserable flight in front of you. I flew Frontier back when they had legacy legroom but that was more than a decade ago now. The two biggest trends in flying are ultra-low-cost-carriers and ultra-long-haul aircraft. I wonder what it will be like when these two trends finally merge into a single experience.


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## me_little_me (Feb 8, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Good Ole "Tree Top Airlines"!


I had forgotten that one! Thanks.

I do remember "The Vomit Comet", "Blue Goose", "White Knuckle Airlines" and other derogatory names for various airlines.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 8, 2022)

me_little_me said:


> I had forgotten that one! Thanks.
> 
> I do remember "The Vomit Comet", "Blue Goose", "White Knuckle Airlines" and other derogatory names for various airlines.


And "Agony Airlines" (Allegeheny Airlines)


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> And "Agony Airlines" (Allegeheny Airlines)


..which was renamed as "US Scare."


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## VentureForth (Feb 9, 2022)

This is like a 49.8 vs 50.2% merger with Frontier being on top, iirc.

Been on Frontier and been on Allegiant. Wife's been on Spirit and Allegiant. As long a you know what you are getting and set your expectations appropriately, not much to be concerned about - much like a national rail service we here are familiar with.

Like any merger, they will take bits from both companies. American merged its livery with UScair abandoning its trademark polished aluminum fuselage and lost recognition of having a mostly Boeing fleet when acquiring USAir's Airbus fleet.

I think "Frontier Spirit" would be a good name, but no one really likes two words.

I think it's kinda funny that Amtrak fans are critical of these two airlines' barebone services and reliability.

Even the US' top tier airlines are hated when things go wrong.

I expect withiin 10 years, Frontier Spirit will merge with Allegiant.

Final note: when I flew on Frontier every seat was taken. Up until check in, the flight looked empty based on seat selection. Saw very few carry on bags at the gate (If you pay for a carry on, you get priority boarding). Goes to show most passengers know how to ride on the cheap and willing to do so.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 9, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> American merged its livery with UScair abandoning its trademark polished aluminum fuselage and lost recognition of having a mostly Boeing fleet when acquiring USAir's Airbus fleet.


Former America West execs had no history or nostalgia for an aluminum fuselage and they were calling the shots.



VentureForth said:


> I think it's kinda funny that Amtrak fans are critical of these two airlines' barebone services and reliability.


I am a passenger rail fan. If I had a choice do you really think I would _choose_ an operator like Amtrak? Amtrak is the only option we have and I think it's kinda funny that you pretend not to notice this.


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## VentureForth (Feb 9, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Former America West execs had no history or nostalgia for an aluminum fuselage and they were calling the shots.


Mergers are a funny thing. America West took over USAir, but kept the USAir branding. Actually looking into it, the American livery was already being changed before the merger, and during the merger, the combined employees were polled (Doug Parker to let American Airlines employees decide whether to keep the new AA tail (dallasnews.com))



Devil's Advocate said:


> I am a passenger rail fan. If I had a choice do you really think I would _choose_ an operator like Amtrak? Amtrak is the only option we have and I think it's kinda funny that you pretend not to notice this.


That is the disappointment of American Rail. When there were choices, services (with a few notable exceptions) were exceptional. Yes. I understand that it's comparing apples to oranges. The irony still remains.


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## Trogdor (Feb 9, 2022)

AA’s livery was changed mainly because composite planes such as the 787s they had on order would not work with a “polished aluminum” look anyway. Also, AA had hundreds of Airbus A320s on order two years before the US Airways merger.


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## VentureForth (Feb 9, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> AA’s livery was changed mainly because composite planes such as the 787s they had on order would not work with a “polished aluminum” look anyway. Also, AA had hundreds of Airbus A320s on order two years before the US Airways merger.


True on the composites. Painted aluminum or chrome would probably look awful. Didn't know about the A320 order book. I see they did that in 2011. "American" Airlines. Ha.


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## basketmaker (Feb 9, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> This is like a 49.8 vs 50.2% merger with Frontier being on top, iirc.
> 
> Been on Frontier and been on Allegiant. Wife's been on Spirit and Allegiant. As long a you know what you are getting and set your expectations appropriately, not much to be concerned about - much like a national rail service we here are familiar with.
> 
> ...


I agree Frontier Spirit would be excellent. Frontier's tagline is "Spirit of the West" from long ago. Hopefully the animals remain and are expanded. Their HQ is a couple of miles from me. And Spirit's HQ is a couple of miles from where I grew up.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 9, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> AA’s livery was changed mainly because composite planes such as the 787s they had on order would not work with a “polished aluminum” look anyway. Also, AA had hundreds of Airbus A320s on order two years before the US Airways merger.


Bare metal was a preference that AA paid extra to source and maintain but was not an absolute requirement.


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## UserNameRequired (Feb 9, 2022)

me_little_me said:


> I had forgotten that one! Thanks.
> 
> I do remember "The Vomit Comet", "Blue Goose", "White Knuckle Airlines" and other derogatory names for various airlines.



krazO


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## basketmaker (Feb 9, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Bare metal was a preference that AA paid extra to source and maintain but was not an absolute requirement.
> 
> View attachment 27055


I love the polished look. But the paint on a commercial aircraft weighs between 600-1200#. That weight savings mean then can cram more people in and/or save fuel. Paint is also a corrosion preventative.


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## jis (Feb 10, 2022)

Frontier + Spirit is projected to have even lower CASM than the two individually have, which is some of the lowest in the industry. They are able to differentiate themselves significantly on CASM and hence are able to produce RASM above that even with very low fares.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 10, 2022)

jis said:


> Frontier + Spirit is projected to have even lower CASM than the two individually have, which is some of the lowest in the industry. They are able to differentiate themselves significantly on CASM and hence are able to produce RASM above that even with very low fares.


Any data on the percentage of customers who really fly with the "low fare" rather than end up paying more or less the same as the legacy fare after buying all the add-ons? I still think it's bait and switch. And it demonstrates that the "free market" does not produce the best outcomes, either for society or for the customer.


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## jis (Feb 10, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Any data on the percentage of customers who really fly with the "low fare" rather than end up paying more or less the same as the legacy fare after buying all the add-ons? I still think it's bait and switch. And it demonstrates that the "free market" does not produce the best outcomes, either for society or for the customer.


I have no clue, and frankly it is irrelevant to the point I was making in my post, except to observe that their RASM is generally lower than those of the legacies. The legacies would not survive if their RASM was that low. Which overall means that passengers are paying net net less per seat than on the legacies. But part of that of course is the absence of extremely pricey upper classes too, so that does not unequivocally say that each individual passenger is paying a lower fare than one on a legacy.

Whatever it is, the model works quite effectively. It has for every successful LCC and ULCC, and in some countries these are the largest and most used airlines, irrespective of what the customer actually pays. This is even more so in the more price sensitive countries. Afterall it is analog of the structure of allocation of charges that makes the private auto look better than public transit and the entire country runs on it and the entire world strives towards it. What can I say?


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## adamj023 (Feb 10, 2022)

We already know how these airlines make money as it is part of their public financial statements as Sprint and Frontier are both listed public corporations. 

The OTA stats don’t show the whole picture. The merged company just combines two companies with a similar business model and allows them to share efficiencies and economy of scale.


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## adamj023 (Feb 11, 2022)

Merging Frontier and Spirit is no different than other airline mergers as both of the airlines were already on the ULCC. Allegiant is also in that class and its unclear if it will merge with them as well. I don’t know the route overlap and so forth however. I could understand usage of smaller airports that has an exclusive with an ULCC to some degree like Trenton Mercer where Frontier has a small market and is the only carrier. But the full flights I saw were on routes that had well established carriers and that really surprises me since airline information and scheduling is open information and in these markets, Frontier and Spirit have fallen behind the competition in terms of schedule availability and frequency of flights on alternative routes if necessary via connections, customer service, and even prices paid and seat pitch. A no frills no baggage no carry on customer could theoretically get a cheaper price perhaps but the combined level of low seat pitch and everything else makes this a bad choice.

Give me a major airline like AA/Jetblue alliance, Delta, United or even Southwest if you are more budget oriented and you can connect to anywhere and have a much better overall experience.

I remember episodes on TV such as a lady missing a UK budget carrier flight and she is upset because she can’t make her flight to another closeby european nation. It was all their fault for depending on a budget airline and a low cost airport as the only way she would get there. At major airports you have loads of backup options with connections. Some carriers can even depending on the airline and situation book tickets with competitor airlines as well with no additional fees but this won’t happen with Spirit or Frontier. I have been on overbooked flights with legacy airlines and still got out since I wanted to get there but others and myself if I wanted to who got overbooked could have volunteered for the cash and seat upgrade on the next connection flight which has been offered or other incentives.


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## Exvalley (Feb 11, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Allegiant is also in that class and its unclear if it will merge with them as well.


Most analysts do not expect that to happen. While the fleet is consistent, Allegiant's route map does not fit as well.

I've never flown Allegiant, but I admire their scrappiness.


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## VentureForth (Feb 11, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> Most analysts do not expect that to happen. While the fleet is consistent, Allegiant's route map does not fit as well.
> 
> I've never flown Allegiant, but I admire their scrappiness.


If Allegiant merges with Frontier/Spirit, then there is no longer competition in the ULCC market. If they then try to raise prices, it won't take much to pit them against the Mainline carriers. I suspect their current business model will remain.

I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.


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## adamj023 (Feb 11, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> If Allegiant merges with Frontier/Spirit, then there is no longer competition in the ULCC market. If they then try to raise prices, it won't take much to pit them against the Mainline carriers. I suspect their current business model will remain.
> 
> I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.



If I recall, both airlines have upgraded seat options. I don’t know the differences in the seats and difference in price between them but it does seem likely they will unify with one standard as plane interiors get modified in the future but that process will take a long time to accomplish. I can see it now, a downgrade from the current seat pitch to a stand up only flight and the airline removing seats altogether after the merger. Spirit has in the past entertained the idea of seatless flights. They probably would have done it if FAA would have allowed it. Nothing good will come of a new interior with the combined carrier. The industry trend is to cut the size of economy seats and Frontier and Spirit both had some of the smallest seats in the industry already. 

In the time period that the seat configurations remain different, I do expect unification of pricing standards after the merger.

I miss the pre merger days when you saw a lot more aircraft liveries at the airport.


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## jebr (Feb 11, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.



I agree. I fear that with Frontier taking over they'll revert to Frontier's seating, but maybe we'll get lucky and Spirit's will stick around.

I think having the ULCCs is good, _even if you never fly on them_. The legacies would not be offering as cheap of flights as they do without the pressure of the ULCCs. I hope the deal is scrutinized and that, if approved, it'll aim to make the ULCC stronger and even more of a competitor instead of simply removing a competitor that drives down prices for everyone.


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## jis (Feb 12, 2022)

This is me posting as an individual, taking my other hat off ...

I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how the Spirit/Frontier merger would be affected by the fact that ULCCs are not a pleasant way to travel (which BTW personally I do agree with) and while arguably many of them are incredibly successful businesses (which sometimes amazes me - but I guess I might have grown too elitist, what can I say?). What is the relevance of this side to and fro?

The more relevant issues would be:

1. Do the shareholders/owners come out ahead net net.

2. Can they convince the relevant regulators that they will not cause harm to competition.

3. Will they be able to keep their current customers and grow the customer base. Remember that just because you and I don't like them does not imply anything at all in this regard.

I suppose speculating on which parts of current practices of the individual airlines the the merged airline will adopt is a worthwhile exercise.

The majority owners projected for the merged airline will apparently be the Frontier side. Here is a brief description of the business terms:









Frontier and Spirit to merge, creating fifth-largest airline in U.S. in $6.6 billion deal


Frontier Airlines and Spirit Airlines have agreed to merge, creating what would become the fifth-largest airline in the country.




www.cnbc.com





The thing that caught my attention is:



> The companies didn’t announce the new name of the combined carrier, the CEO or location of the airline’s headquarters. Those questions will be answered by a committee led by Franke after the transaction closes, which is expected in the second half of the year, pending regulatory and shareholder approval. Labor unions were informed early Monday, the airlines said. Pilots at Frontier and Spirit are represented by the same union, as are the two airlines’ flight attendants.



which suggests that Bill Franke of Frontier is in the driver's seat on this.

The other thing that should be of concern, and has to do partly with the competitive landscape post merger, is what effect this merger will have on the airline industry. There is a good discussion and sharing of opinions on this subject taking place in airliners.net at:



Effects of the Spirit/Frontier merger on US airline industry - Airliners.net



And finally there is an endless space to speculate about what their consolidated route structure will be and what their hubs will be, even though they are not really a hub-n-spoke operation per se.


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## jebr (Feb 12, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> My recent experience on Spirit was excellent. They, unlike the legacy carriers, as far as I can tell, are still blocking off middle seats. At least for my two flights. And the flight attendant on one of my flights came to me to acknowledge she knew I may need assistance for my disability. She even asked if I wanted her to lower her mask so I could read her lips. That has been hit or miss on even the legacy carriers over the years for me.



Spirit isn't blocking middle seats - I flew on them a few weeks ago and they definitely had middle seats booked up. That said, I thought they handled the delay I had better than American or JetBlue - I had a two hour delay on Spirit and we were quickly informed of the delay (including how long it was) and we were proactively offered $50 vouchers for a future flight. JetBlue had a 3-hour rolling delay, and given how quickly they were boarding other planes (and wound up boarding ours) I did not feel comfortable leaving the general gate area beyond very quick bathroom breaks - even walking a few gates down for 10-15 minutes seemed too risky. No compensation was offered, even after filing a complaint online. On AA we boarded and then there was a two-hour mechanical delay on-board (in seats not a whole lot more comfortable than Spirit!) and we missed our connection, and they wouldn't rebook us on another airline and no compensation was offered there either, despite getting home 7 hours later than scheduled and having additional connections - we weren't even given a meal voucher!

Which brings me to this:



jis said:


> 3. Will they be able to keep their current customers and grow the customer base. Remember that just because you and I don't like them does not imply anything at all in this regard.



I think they'll do a fine job keeping their customer base. Having additional frequencies that are easily able to be rebooked on will also help when there are cancellations, and given that most legacy airlines seem to care even less about most of their customers than the ULCCs, I think just as many people, if not more, will be pushed away from the legacies and willing to try ULCCs (since it's "can't be any worse" than their last American or United flight) as those pushed away from the ULCCs into full-service carriers. The ULCCs also have a huge advantage lately by focusing on leisure travel - that's picking up much faster than business travel, and leisure travelers are far more price-sensitive and somewhat less "comfort/frills"-sensitive, particularly in terms of premium cabins or nicer seats. I think that'll bode well for the merged carrier and, assuming the merger gets approved, unless they massively screw things up they have a long runway for growth available to them.


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## WashingtonFlyer (Feb 13, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> Like any merger, they will take bits from both companies. American merged its livery with UScair abandoning its trademark polished aluminum fuselage and lost recognition of having a mostly Boeing fleet when acquiring USAir's Airbus fleet.



AA had already had an order for 260 A319s/A321s on the books at the time that American And USAirways agreed to merge. A pretty significant portion of the planned fleet - most of which was designed to replace American's aging MD80 fleet. 

As to the paint scheme (or lack thereof), the bare metal aluminum skin had (with the exception of A300s and acquired jets (which eventually had paint removed)) always been part of AA's scheme. The AA Massimo Vignelli scheme that we all recognize was introduced in 1968 was the scheme for 45 years until AA announced a refresh in 2013 - before the merger with US was announced.


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## jis (Feb 13, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTE: In the interest of retaining most of the posts on various subjects posted in this thread originally we have reorganized the threads a bit as follows:

1, All posts with greatest affinity to the Merger topic have been retained in this thread.

2. Posts with greatest affinity to the experience of flying LCC, ULCC and Charter including the argument about whether there are more incidents on ULCCs or not have been given their own thread:






Flying by LCC, ULCC and Charter


While the nickel and dining of everything on Spirit kind of sucked, it did seem to serve a purpose. I've flown Spirit round-trip once, and the experience was actually quite good. Because the carry-on fee was less than the check-in fee there were very few people carrying on so there was little...




www.amtraktrains.com





3. All posts with greatest affinity to the Middle Seat discussion that had been removed as off topic have been restored in its own thread:






The Middle Seat Discussion


Spirit isn't blocking middle seats - I flew on them a few weeks ago and they definitely had middle seats booked up. Guess I should have said blocking middle seats for single travelers. I’m assuming you were traveling with your wife. When I looked online near my travel date the middle seats...




www.amtraktrains.com





So now only a few remaining posts that were removed for reasons other than off topic remain removed. Everything else has been restored in its proper place.

Hope this satisfies more people than it upsets.

All the best.


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## LookingGlassTie (Mar 21, 2022)

I remember that for a while, America West was featured as a sponsor for the game show "Jeopardy!".


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## VentureForth (Apr 6, 2022)

This may not be a done deal. Now JetBlue just offered to buy out Spirit for $3.6B!

JetBlue Offers $3.6 Billion for Spirit, Outbidding Frontier | Newsmax.com


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## jis (Apr 6, 2022)

Another article about Jet Blue and Spirit









JetBlue bids for Spirit Airlines, potentially spoiling Spirit’s merger with Frontier.


JetBlue’s offer is worth more than Frontier’s, but the combination of Spirit and JetBlue is less of a clear fit, industry analysts say.




www.nytimes.com


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 7, 2022)

I hope they don't ruin JetBlue by making it more like Spirit


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## McIntyre2K7 (Apr 7, 2022)

At least we know the CEO of JetBlue takes Amtrak.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 7, 2022)

McIntyre2K7 said:


> At least we know the CEO of JetBlue takes Amtrak.



Does Jet Blue fly between New York and Boston? If so, I wonder what Amtrak offers that causes the CEO of this airline to take the train?


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## McIntyre2K7 (Apr 7, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Does Jet Blue fly between New York and Boston? If so, I wonder what Amtrak offers that causes the CEO of this airline to take the train?



Yes. They have at least 15 flights a day between Boston and New York serving JFK, LGA, and EWR.


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