# My often confusing and rarely satisfying experiences with AGR.



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

The more I deal with AGR the more confusing and annoying this whole process becomes.

So I'm bringing some of my AGR troubles to AU in an effort to better understand what is happening and maybe even how to fix it.

Let's start by trying to route SAS to SEA on Fri, Jun 29, 2012 using Amtrak.com

01. The date you want is available for your desired connection on routes 22, 5, and 14. Nice. ^_^ You see that all trains have a roomette available. _Perfect. _ 

02. You call up AGR to pay for the ticket with points. After fifteen minutes on hold you make your request and they put you on hold for another ten minutes or so. When they return you are informed that even though everyone can see the roomette as available it's actually locked or on hold or something. In any case it's not actually bookable at that moment. They suggest you try again later after it has been cleared. How much later? After midnight Eastern Time when the system releases holds or locks or whatever it does. :mellow:

03. The next day you check again and you see roomettes on all routes. Score! You figure it must be valid since the system has supposedly released and re-synced everything. Again you call AGR but they still cannot book it because the roomette remains hung up in some unexplainable way. You are advised to give it some more time. You call again a few days later but apparently it's _still_ hung up in some perpetually unfixable way. Oh well. :mellow:

04. Luckily you have a few more days to work with and you decide to move things around and to another date in order to find a roomette that's actually bookable. You request the following day of Saturday. Unfortunately that routing is not valid on Saturdays. :huh: In fact there is no routing available _at all_ in any class of service on Saturday. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. :blink: It's not that it shows up as sold out. Nor are there any exception warnings. There's just no way to travel from SAS to SEA on Saturday on any train. Period. So you inquire about your desired routing on Sunday. Nope. Monday? No. Tuesday? No. Wednesday? No. :wacko:

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I feel like I'm doing my best to show a good faith effort to work within the unwritten limitations of the AGR program, but nothing seems to be working so far. The agent helpfully suggests that I give up on the daily (but apparently unbookable) Texas Eagle departing at 7:00AM and take the Sunset Limited departing at 2:45AM instead. Um, thanks? hboy:

At this point I ask again if the routing on Friday was ever valid in the first place, and I am assured that it is. :unsure: I ask if there are any roomettes available on any of the other days, and it is explained that there are. :mellow: The only problem is that the agent is "not allowed" to combine a supposedly valid routing with any of these supposedly available roomettes. Nor will _anyone else_ I may request to speak with. Even a supervisor? I am assured there is absolutely nothing they can do to help. Prior experience tells me that she's probably right. I have no idea what a supervisor can or cannot do, but I've yet to have any of them actually resolve anything that someone below them couldn't fix. 

Sensing some mild exasperation, the always friendly and helpful AGR agent offers to *sell* me the routing I want with the accommodations I want on a day that will work for me. This only confuses me even more so again I inquire as to why this routing is only valid once or maybe twice a week by points but is apparently valid every single day of the week with cash. No further information is forthcoming. Only the friendly advice that it would probably be best to either pay with a credit card or admit defeat and take the other route. <_<

As you can see I'm not exactly getting what I want out of this program. Is there something I'm forgetting or simply not understanding about how to make this work? I realize that some folks plan their trips nearly a year in advance, but that's simply not possible for me. Not to mention that you're not going to know what sort of detours and complications might be coming down the pipe that far out. Despite my timing it really doesn't seem like it should be this difficult and confusing. If I were seeing the same routings each day and simply running into sold out trains that's perfectly understandable, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't recall airline awards being quite this confusing. Maybe my brain simply isn't wired for working with AGR.


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## trainman74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Even though you put 1 through 4 in second person, I can't relate because I've never had problems like those with AGR.

So why do _you_ have problems like those? Honestly, my guess is karma.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

trainman74 said:


> Even though you put 1 through 4 in second person, I can't relate because I've never had problems like those with AGR. So why do _you_ have problems like those? Honestly, my guess is karma.


Feel free to put your own karma to the test and book my desired route/class/dates. :lol:


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## amamba (Jun 6, 2012)

Have you tried reaching out to the AGR insider on flyer talk? This sounds incredibly bizarre. My understanding of the AGR program is that if a roomette is available for purchase with cash, it should be available for an award redemption. Clearly that is not the case as demonstrated by your situation, but I am just curious if this has happened to anyone else?

There was definitely some time that Arrow was having some gliches. I had some days where it all of a sudden told me that I couldn't take the star or the meteor out of NYP on amtrak.com. It was inexplicable. Then I would wait a few days and the routing would show up again.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 6, 2012)

:wacko: As Jack says in "A Few Good Men"" "I haven't the first damn clue!" :unsure: Ive booked this trip several times Chris, both Paid and AGR Award in both directions! In fact I have it booked for August through AGR on my annual freeloading trip to the NW! The only possible explanations that comes to mind is that either Amtrak is trying to steer folks from Texas onto the Lower cost/Rescheduled Sunset in lieu of the Zephyr as part of the Mysterious Revenue Enhancement Program and/or the track work in Illinois between STL and CHI that results in the Eagle not stopping in SPI due to the Corn Fiield Reroute! :unsure:

I know its a PITA but I suggest calling Customer Relations, they usually are pretty good @ giving Explanations or getting answers for Customers, it's my thought that the AGR Agents are limited by the system as to what they can book/procedures to follow just like any bureaucracy! This is just another example of the strange world of Amtrak where the system and the written rules say one thing and actual persons that you talk with seem to want to ( or have to) do things differently! :help: :help: :help:


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## PRR 60 (Jun 6, 2012)

Is it possible they are trying to force the #22 to #5 connection at CHI? The connection time at CHI is too short and Arrow will toss it out. The allowed connection requires a bus segment between Springfield IL (SPI) and Galesburg IL (GBB). Maybe the agents are not picking that up?

That's my only thought (at least for now).


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## the_traveler (Jun 6, 2012)

The last 2 posters had my thoughts exactly.

Is your trip scheduled on one of the "detour days"?




If so, you can not meet the bus going between 22 & 5! And 22 gets to CHI too late to take 5 from there!

I hate to say it but you may have to take the "early" train from SAS!


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## amamba (Jun 6, 2012)

Oh, I wonder if its a trackwork issue with the bus bridge!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

amamba said:


> Have you tried reaching out to the AGR insider on flyer talk? This sounds incredibly bizarre.


Not yet.

One thing that makes it difficult to clarify the situation is that the results that are returned also vary from one query to the next, even when they're identical. Sometimes I see two routes on day "X" while other times I only see one route or none for the exact same day. I can't figure out why it would change like that. Sometimes a given route shows up at breakfast then vanishes at lunch and appears again at dinner. It doesn't sell out; it simply vanishes. I have heard that Amtrak has to run a manual routing process that defines which routes can be chained together for Arrow, but I figured that would be a monthly or quarterly process, not something that happens repeatedly in the middle of the day.



amamba said:


> My understanding of the AGR program is that if a roomette is available for purchase with cash, it should be available for an award redemption. Clearly that is not the case as demonstrated by your situation, but I am just curious if this has happened to anyone else?


I believe that's true for pre-built connections. However, when it comes to AGR tickets if it's not a pre-built option they won't build it themselves, even if the exact same routing is allowed on the previous day or the next day. With a revenue ticket they'll happily build whatever you want and, so long as it meets the connection minimums, they'll even guarantee it. No such luck with an AGR ticket, unless you're willing to break up each connection into a separate award. My routing is a great option for 20,000 points, but it would not be nearly as good of a value at 60,000 points each way.



amamba said:


> There was definitely some time that Arrow was having some gliches. I had some days where it all of a sudden told me that I couldn't take the star or the meteor out of NYP on amtrak.com. It was inexplicable. Then I would wait a few days and the routing would show up again.


That's kind of how it has been for me as well. Some days everything looks normal. Other times it just refuses to work with me.



PRR 60 said:


> Is it possible they are trying to force the #22 to #5 connection at CHI? The connection time at CHI is too short and Arrow will toss it out. The allowed connection requires a bus segment between Springfield IL (SPI) and Galesburg IL (GBB). Maybe the agents are not picking that up? That's my only thought (at least for now).


Yes, they can get confused on how to tie the 22 to the 5, but even after calmly mentioning the necessary bridges they still couldn't make it happen. At least not for an AGR ticket. It's not entirely clear to me if they would have actually been able to sell me the connection on a revenue ticket, but they did seem pretty confident on this point.



the_traveler said:


> The last 2 posters had my thoughts exactly. Is your trip scheduled on one of the "detour days"? If so, you can not meet the bus going between 22 & 5! And 22 gets to CHI too late to take 5 from there! I hate to say it but you may have to take the "early" train from SAS!


&


amamba said:


> Oh, I wonder if its a trackwork issue with the bus bridge!


Are we talking about Texas Eagle trains 21/421 and 22/422 from May 22 - 24 and June 1 - 9? Or the California Zephyr trains 5 and 6 from May 16 - 22 and June 1 - 7, 2012? Unless I'm mistaken neither of those issues should be affecting a ticket sometime between June 29 and July 2nd, right?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 6, 2012)

I just set up a similar SEA round trip run 23-30 JUL, only originating and ending in Norman OK which routes through SAS on the way out. Roomettes showed available and when I called in, the Agent had no trouble setting it up and doing the _*California Zephyr*_ routing on the return where she manually has to add the FTW-NOR segment which for some reason does not show up on Arrow. Again, no problems with this and she even made our _*Starlight*_ to _*Zephyr*_ connection at Martinez to eliminate a long layover in Sacramento.

On both itineraries, she then went back in and changed any Lower Level Roomettes to Upper Level. From the time I first spoke with the Agent until the itineraries were in my e-mail was 5 minutes.

In your case, I wonder if calling back and speaking with another Agent may help. It seems some Agents are better able to navigate the system than others.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I just set up a similar SEA round trip run 23-30 JUL, only originating and ending in Norman OK which routes through SAS on the way out. Roomettes showed available and when I called in, the Agent had no trouble setting it up and doing the _*California Zephyr*_ routing on the return where she manually has to add the FTW-NOR segment which for some reason does not show up on Arrow. Again, no problems with this and she even made our _*Starlight*_ to _*Zephyr*_ connection at Martinez to eliminate a long layover in Sacramento.


Hmm. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I don't see any option involving the CZ to/from Norman, OK on Jul 23 at Amtrak.com. In my experience whenever Amtrak.com doesn't show something the AGR reps won't ticket it. If I ask for something that Amtrak.com won't spit out for me they always refuse to ticket it without exception. They tell me they are forbidden from building anything on their own for an AGR award. The system must build it for them or it's not considered a valid routing for points purposes. They have been extremely clear about this every time I have asked for anything Amtrak.com didn't want to give me. It doesn't seem to matter if I'm vague or if I'm up front with my request. Or if I ask for it like a routine traveler or a clueless nobody. They will often start building a manual itinerary in order to check on occupancy or whatever, but in the end they always tell me that AGR points cannot be used that way and back it out. hboy:



OlympianHiawatha said:


> On both itineraries, she then went back in and changed any Lower Level Roomettes to Upper Level. From the time I first spoke with the Agent until the itineraries were in my e-mail was 5 minutes. In your case, I wonder if calling back and speaking with another Agent may help. It seems some Agents are better able to navigate the system than others.


I suppose it's possible that I'm just always getting the sticklers while you're always getting the bend-over-backwards types, but this is not a one-off event I'm talking about here. I'm referring to over a dozen calls that have resulted in similar dead ends so far. :help:


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## amamba (Jun 6, 2012)

Do you still want to go on June 29th?

I am seeing SAS to SEA on June 29th with roomettes available right now at amtrak.com. If it shows up at amtrak.com, AGR should be able to book it.

I agree that the AGR folks won't give you a trip if it doesn't come up on arrow. I think there have been some weird glitches going on because I was having problems getting NYP - ORL to show up on the silvers one day. I would just get an error message and then it would show me the star/meteor at a future date.


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## AlanB (Jun 6, 2012)

My bet is that one of the trains is sold out of through rooms. Most likely the Eagle, which only has 1 room left, but it is possible that it could be the CZ or the CS, both of which only have 2 roomettes left.

ARROW has this weird quirk that if for example a room #3 is available SAS-DAL & room #5 is available DAL-CHI, it will show up via the online system as having 1 room for sale. However, when you actually go try to pull the room from inventory ARROW can't get 1 room all the way through, so it blows up and fails on the reservation and the agent cannot book it. And it doesn't matter if it's a paid reservation or a an AGR reservation. Heck, if you tried to book it online it will fail before you can enter the credit card info.

The only way that you're going to be able to make this res is to find out what city pairs make up that non-trough room. Then the AGR agent can book you, like say in the above example, SAS-DAL & DAL-SPI. If you get a nice agent on the phone, they'll do the shopping for you. If not, you may have to do it yourself and it won't be easy. Or if you know an agent at the SAS station, visit with them during an off time and have them pull up the car inventories and figure out where you'd have to move from one room to the other. Then go call AGR with that info.


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## AlanB (Jun 6, 2012)

Ps. I used a simple example above. I've also seen one on the Crescent where it was 3 rooms combined that created 1 through room. NOL-ATL, ATL-CLT, CLT-WAS.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

amamba said:


> Do you still want to go on June 29th? I am seeing SAS to SEA on June 29th with roomettes available right now at amtrak.com. If it shows up at amtrak.com, AGR should be able to book it.


I'm guessing that's the same useless mirage the site has been showing for several days now. I've even tried buying it with a card and it always fails at the payment stage. I'm not sure what's wrong with the website, but it doesn't look like it's going to be fixed anytime soon. When I've asked if anyone was going to take a look at it I was assured it would probably "fix itself" eventually, possibly even before the train left the station.



amamba said:


> I agree that the AGR folks won't give you a trip if it doesn't come up on arrow. I think there have been some weird glitches going on because I was having problems getting NYP - ORL to show up on the silvers one day. I would just get an error message and then it would show me the star/meteor at a future date.


That's when you need people who are willing to look at what's actually going on and use their own judgement to determine if you're really trying to use them or just trying to make use of your points legitimately. Unfortunately that's not how AGR works. You ask them for anything that may require some sort of manual intervention or override and they drop you like a hot potato. End of story. Never gotten them to do anything beyond the upsell pitch at that point. Maybe I'm just not calling them enough times to get the guy who doesn't care what the computer says or just doesn't know what the rules are.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 6, 2012)

AlanB said:


> My bet is that one of the trains is sold out of through rooms. Most likely the Eagle, which only has 1 room left, but it is possible that it could be the CZ or the CS, both of which only have 2 roomettes left. ARROW has this weird quirk that if for example a room #3 is available SAS-DAL & room #5 is available DAL-CHI, it will show up via the online system as having 1 room for sale. However, when you actually go try to pull the room from inventory ARROW can't get 1 room all the way through, so it blows up and fails on the reservation and the agent cannot book it.


That's a good point, and in fact I've had something like that happen to me a few years ago. I made three calls to three separate agents for a SAS-CHI roomette booking that all told me it was completely unavailable. However, the fourth agent did eventually agree to run through some test bookings to see if there was any way to get around the problem and with a little manual intervention things worked out eventually. However, that was a top-bucket revenue ticket. For this non-rev ticket I've called AGR five times about the trip so far and none of them have shown any interest in moving beyond the first or second attempt at booking the Eagle.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 6, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Hmm. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I don't see any option involving the CZ to/from Norman, OK on Jul 23 at Amtrak.com. In my experience whenever Amtrak.com doesn't show something the AGR reps won't ticket it. If I ask for something that Amtrak.com won't spit out for me they always refuse to ticket it without exception. They tell me they are forbidden from building anything on their own for an AGR award. The system must build it for them or it's not considered a valid routing for points purposes. They have been extremely clear about this every time I have asked for anything Amtrak.com didn't want to give me. It doesn't seem to matter if I'm vague or if I'm up front with my request. Or if I ask for it like a routine traveler or a clueless nobody. They will often start building a manual itinerary in order to check on occupancy or whatever, but in the end they always tell me that AGR points cannot be used that way and back it out. hboy:


There is a quirk in Arrow that allows booking SEA-FTW via the _*Cal Zephyr*_ but not on to Norman, even though that is a perfectly legal connection in FTW. Both times I have requested this the Agent said no problem and booked it; so maybe it shows on their screen or they already know about it.


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## Bigval109 (Jun 20, 2012)

I've just had a disturbing problem with Agr. it has happened over a period of weeks. I'm still trying to get all my points from my May vacation. I've noticed that they don't listen to what you are saying when you have missing points. I would never ask for anything that I'm not due. While I always seem to have a problem getting my points when part of my trip is by bus. But this year was the worst I've ever experience. All over 300 points. I've filed two missing points reports for the two segments that were missing. I've been on the phone for hours over these points.The supervisor all but called me liar because she said I said something I didn't, regarding points being on my screen. It when on ,then I asked for her supervisor she said she was offended and I told her I was offended by the way she talked to me like she was going to have to pay for giving me my points. Another supervisor came on the phone with a much better attitude, I told her what happened, and I remarked that people at AGR don't have to talk to people like she did to me. She said she would go over to the other office to find out whats going on because she could not access my account screen from her computer. I said I didn't want her to go through all that for my 300 points. It was a real mess. I still didn't get the points I felt I deserved, but the last lady did what she could. She also told me that as far as she could see they gave me the points under different labels. I thanked her for her time. Now I know first hand what posters are talking about difficult calls to AGR.


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## yarrow (Jul 8, 2012)

by the end of the month yarrow and i will have 40k points and are planning a roomette spk-atl. a two zone award. we did it a couple years ago and were routed spk-chi-nol-atl. thought i would call agr and check if they are using the same routing. first guy i got swore up and down that the only routing was spk-chi-was-atl and that it was three zone award (which is true)but you couldn't do the routing through nol we did in the past. called again and a different person said the routing is spk-chi-was-atl but it is a two zone award since we end up in atlanta only two zones from home. i asked "are you sure?". "yes, it all depends where you end up and atlanta is two zones from your home." i'll just wait until i have the points in the bank and call back for more fun. do the agr reps get any orientation to their job? is it a management problem in that they get a poor orientation? it's pretty silly


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## Bruce-C (Jul 8, 2012)

yarrow

Your dealings with AGR personnel was 180° of my reservation last week.

I called and made a 3-zone reservation, LAX to ALB. I requested LAX-PDX-CHI-ALB. My agent brought up the requested route, I then asked to make my roomette selection at that time. When I gave the agent my roomette selection there was a couple minutes on hold. When the agent came back on the line, only one roomette selection had to be changed. Total time from dial-up to receiving my e-mail confirmation was about 5-7 min.

I had GREAT service!!!!


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## yarrow (Jul 8, 2012)

Bruce-C said:


> yarrow
> 
> Your dealings with AGR personnel was 180° of my reservation last week.
> 
> ...


i usually have pretty good luck with agr. i don't understand though how what seem to to be basic rules of the program seem to be a mystery to a lot of agr agents


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## yarrow (Jul 11, 2012)

yarrow said:


> by the end of the month yarrow and i will have 40k points and are planning a roomette spk-atl. a two zone award. we did it a couple years ago and were routed spk-chi-nol-atl. thought i would call agr and check if they are using the same routing. first guy i got swore up and down that the only routing was spk-chi-was-atl and that it was three zone award (which is true)but you couldn't do the routing through nol we did in the past. called again and a different person said the routing is spk-chi-was-atl but it is a two zone award since we end up in atlanta only two zones from home. i asked "are you sure?". "yes, it all depends where you end up and atlanta is two zones from your home." i'll just wait until i have the points in the bank and call back for more fun. do the agr reps get any orientation to their job? is it a management problem in that they get a poor orientation? it's pretty silly


just to update. we have amassed 40k points so i called agr this morning and told the agent we wanted to book a rt 2 zone award spk-atl. he said "ok, spk-chi, then chi-was, wait that's a 3 zone..., no it's not as your are going was-atl". so we are booked with the same itinerary coming and going. we booked this itinerary as a 2 zone a few years ago and leaving it for us to discover later amtrak changed it on us (without authorization they deducted more points from our account to cover a 3 zone). don't have the extra points this time so hopefully it will stick. as another thred says "we are dealing with amtrak guess rewards"


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## AlanB (Jul 11, 2012)

yarrow said:


> just to update. we have amassed 40k points so i called agr this morning and told the agent we wanted to book a rt 2 zone award spk-atl. he said "ok, spk-chi, then chi-was, wait that's a 3 zone..., no it's not as your are going was-atl". so we are booked with the same itinerary coming and going. we booked this itinerary as a 2 zone a few years ago and leaving it for us to discover later amtrak changed it on us (without authorization they deducted more points from our account to cover a 3 zone). don't have the extra points this time so hopefully it will stick. as another thred says "we are dealing with amtrak guess rewards"


Yes, that change came about because of the "loop hole" trips.

If you're willing to spend a night on your own dime in New Orleans, then you may be able to book a two-zone trip by doing SPK-CHI-NOL-ATL and reverse. But again, you will have to overnight in NOL on your own dime.


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## yarrow (Jul 11, 2012)

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > just to update. we have amassed 40k points so i called agr this morning and told the agent we wanted to book a rt 2 zone award spk-atl. he said "ok, spk-chi, then chi-was, wait that's a 3 zone..., no it's not as your are going was-atl". so we are booked with the same itinerary coming and going. we booked this itinerary as a 2 zone a few years ago and leaving it for us to discover later amtrak changed it on us (without authorization they deducted more points from our account to cover a 3 zone). don't have the extra points this time so hopefully it will stick. as another thred says "we are dealing with amtrak guess rewards"
> ...


i know about the end of the loopholes and a couple years ago we did do spk-chi-nol-atl as a 2 zone. but today i called agr and told the agent i wanted to do spk-atl as a 2 zone and he booked us spk-chi-was-atl rt


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## AlanB (Jul 11, 2012)

The agent booked the first thing that showed on his computer, which is via WAS. Hence the 3 zone award.

But if you request the routing via NOL, and mention that you understand that you have to pay for a hotel yourself in NOL, the agent may book it for you. Technically you could also try for SPK-PDX-LAX-NOL-ATL, but that's much more round about.


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## yarrow (Jul 12, 2012)

AlanB said:


> The agent booked the first thing that showed on his computer, which is via WAS. Hence the 3 zone award.
> 
> But if you request the routing via NOL, and mention that you understand that you have to pay for a hotel yourself in NOL, the agent may book it for you. Technically you could also try for SPK-PDX-LAX-NOL-ATL, but that's much more round about.


alan, my point is that for 40k points (a 2 zone roomette round trip) he booked us spk-chi-was-atl


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## Ispolkom (Jul 12, 2012)

yarrow said:


> alan, my point is that for 40k points (a 2 zone roomette round trip) he booked us spk-chi-was-atl


I hope that this isn't a complaint! In your case I'd thank the agent politely, hang up, and do the Happy Happy Joy Joy Dance.

This sort of result is why I'm perfectly willing to put up with AGR's oddities. Whenever it happens, it always makes me feel like I've won the lottery. I suppose that it could be legitimately said that I'm abusing the system, but I'm willing to live with that.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 16, 2012)

I have no idea if anyone is still curious about this topic, but I ended up making a sixth attempt at this and getting a date I could work with. Then my work schedule changed again and I had to call AGR a seventh time. The guy I was working with was pretty quiet and didn't say much, which was actually fine with me. This time I not only made sure that Amtrak.com showed that the route was active for the day I picked, I also made sure that there were at least TWO rooms "available" on _every single train_. I couldn't figure out how to make sure there were two seats on the bus, so I just crossed my fingers on that part. Eventually my AGR reservations agent came back to confirm my information and I requested upper level rooms. I don't really have a problem with the view from down below, but when the toilets backup I don't want to be anywhere near the bottom floor. Luckily that wasn't a problem. I thought about requesting a modification to the Sacramento connection but I couldn't remember what was considered guaranteed and I didn't want to argue with anyone today. That being said, if I wanted to purchase a nested ticket how far south can I reasonably expect to catch the Northbound Coast Starlight (Train 14) from a Westbound California Zephyr (Train 5) if I'm making my own connection?


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