# Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train



## nsaspook

You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.

Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train


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## Everydaymatters

Doesn't Amtrak have some kind of a policy for removing disorderly people from the train? Coming back to Chicago from LosAngeles, I was on a train where a disorderly passenger was removed at a station with the police waiting there for him.


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## AlanB

Everydaymatters said:


> Doesn't Amtrak have some kind of a policy for removing disorderly people from the train? Coming back to Chicago from LosAngeles, I was on a train where a disorderly passenger was removed at a station with the police waiting there for him.


I thought so too, that if the train wasn't at a station, then they had to call the police to kick someone off the train. But I guess that either they don't have to do that, or someone didn't follow policy.

And of course if it isn't a policy already, it may well be after this incident.


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## AmtrakWPK

Something just doesn't make sense here. The police saw him, at the crossing, but they couldn't catch a 65 year-old man who was going into diabetic shock, who simply ran into the woods, in their terrotory? What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't say they ran after him, or that they tried to find him, does it? Amtrak, right or wrong, removed him from the train, but apparently waited until the police were on the scene. Maybe their diagnosis was faulty, but it sounds like they at least left him in the presence of the police, who then let a 65 year-old diabetic going into shock outrun them......... We're missing some relevant pieces of the narrative, I think.


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## nsaspook

AmtrakWPK said:


> Something just doesn't make sense here. The police saw him, at the crossing, but they couldn't catch a 65 year-old man who was going into diabetic shock, who simply ran into the woods, in their terrotory? What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't say they ran after him, or that they tried to find him, does it? Amtrak, right or wrong, removed him from the train, but apparently waited until the police were on the scene. Maybe their diagnosis was faulty, but it sounds like they at least left him in the presence of the police, who then let a 65 year-old diabetic going into shock outrun them......... We're missing some relevant pieces of the narrative, I think.


I would hope someone on the crew would have called for medical advice first before calling the cops and dumping him on a crossing in the woods. It's the diabetics responsibility to maintain but a little education goes a long way in helping someone in need. HYPOGLYCEMIA AND "INSULIN SHOCK"


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## AlanB

Nsaspook,

I'm not sure how or why, but on both posts you've somehow left off the last one or two letters in the link. On your first post, the "ml" go cut off in the "html" part of the link. In the second post, the "m" got cut off from "htm". I've fixed both for you, but you might want to look into why both times the last few letters got cut off.


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## AmtrakFan

This story made CNN, tonight.


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## daveyb99

From the article:

Amtrak personnel told police dispatchers that Sims was drunk and unruly.

 

When officers arrived at the crossing, police said, Sims ran into the woods, leaving his luggage and medication behind.

 

Cell phone records show that Sims' phone was last used in Litchfield Park, Ariz., 180 miles from Williams.

 

Williams police told CBS 5 that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing as a drop-off site in the past. Graham said that whether drunk or not, no one should be dropped off there.
​


OK, so AMTRAK contacted the Williams, AZ Police Department, who met the train at the crossing (as they likely have done in the past, per Williams PD) and AMTRAK discharged this person into Police custody.

So, what is the problem.

The Sims family said Sims is diabetic and was going into shock.
​


First off, how would the Sims family know this if they were not there. He might be diabetic, but maybe - just maybe - he was drunk.

Also, notice no mention of any Medical Bracelet, ID Tag, or records of any kind in the luggage. I am sure AMTRAK folks are trained to look for that info. I know we were at the Fort Worth, TX PD. Drunk vs. Diabetic is very difficult to detect for a non-medic, especially if the person is unruly.

There usually is more to the story than the headlines, and this is a good example.


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## GG-1

Aloha

Reading this thread leaves me very confused

1 when set off the train were the police there to receive him?

2 What was the time interval between the decision to remove the passenger and actually removing the Passenger?

3 Was this location decided by Amtrak crew or the Police?

4 Why were the Police unable to control the individual?

5 Any additional information?

Mahalo


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## RailBirder

Here is a copy of a post to TrainOrder.com

Date: June 28, 2007 22:31

Diabetic man lost on train trip(new facts alter story)

Author: Diddle_E._Squat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As expected, the initial news story implying that Amtrak just dumped the guy alone at a crossing was BS. Apparently what actually happened was the man and the conductor were waiting at the station platform for the police to show up, and when the squad car arrived the guy took off running into the woods. The man had just been diagnosed as diabetic the day before the train trip. Family speculates that perhaps he went into diabetic shock and didn't know how to handle it, but OTOH if he was just diagnosed wouldn't it be likely that the nurse or doctor had at least briefly gone over the risk of shock, what it is, how to recognize it, and how to deal with it? Or perhaps it was all a bit overwhelming and hard to take in at once?

Hearing such a life-changing diagnosis could be quite a mental shock, so it isn't inconceivable that he might actually have been drunk at the time the conductor came to that conclusion. Or maybe not. No way for any of us here to know for sure, so blaming the conductor and Amtrak may be a bad idea, or at a minimum premature. How about just leaving it as a sad story for now?

----------------------------------

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories...y.23d67705.html



> Roosevelt Sims, 65, had finally retired.
> So for his first vacation ever, the steel mill worker hopped on an Amtrak train in St. Louis and headed to Los Angeles to visit his family.
> 
> He would only get as far as Williams, Ariz., when, according to an Amtrak spokesperson, the conductor determined Sims was intoxicated.


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## George Harris

We need to also realize that there are many levels of "diabetic." It can vary from complete insulin dependency to partial controlled by diet alone, or diet and pills, It can be stable or "brittle," that is unpredictible. We know none of this relating to this case. There are many ways that people deal with it. Some can treat it as something they have do deal with as part of living, others act like it is the end of the world for them. We know none of this relating to the case. And, he really could have been drunk, as well. It happens. It is extraordinarily stupid for dibetics to drink, but if he was recently diagnosed, this mayh not have sunk through yet, either.

Since diabetes has been know for centuries, and has been something that people are able to live with for years since the 1920's for people that deal with the public regularly to be clueless about it is highly unlikely. although it does occasionally happen.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan

When a conductor removes a passenger from a train the Police will meet the train to escort the person off Amtrak just doesn't drop passengers that are geting thrown off at stations or crossing's.

And sometimes the police will meet the train at a crossing or the conductor will wait for the next station depending on how the person is acting.

And how was anyone suppose to know that this person had a medical problem if Amtrak was not told.

Thats why when passengers are removed from the train the police are there to assist in case the person is having a medical problem.


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## guest_AmtrakCrescent20

I guess this deserves a new topic: article from local news

This article still seems to imply that Amtrak let the person off in the middle of the forest.......


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## Not an Amtrak Fan

nsaspook said:


> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train


This reminds me of another thread:

Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers

Amtrak should be held accountable!


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## Irv

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
Click to expand...


"Upon arrival of authorities, the passenger fled into nearby woods."

Either that's an outright lie (in which case they'll be held accountable), or it's the truth.

I have friends with diabetes. They get weak, shakey, unable to stand, much less able to run into woods.

Maybe he does have diabetes - so what? So do lots of people. Even if it's true, it's just being used as an excuse

to make people feel sorry for him. And if he does have diabetes, why was he drinking alcohol?

But then, I guess "Not an Amtrak Fan" would have an axe to grind, even if he had to go borrow one.


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## yarrow

i may not have read the article and posts carefully enough but i have a couple questions. how does a conductor establish someone is drunk or that a person is not suffering from a medical condition? if the man did over imbibe did he bring his own supply with him or did the lounge car attendant keep serving him to excess? it sounds like this is just a bad situation but i think amtrak does bear some responsibility and should make public what their criteria are for being "drunk" and how they distinguish that from conditions which could mimic drunkeness and what their policy is on serving customers in the lounge.


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## caravanman

I think there are a couple of good idea's in these postings. It would be good to know which conditions us drunks could pretend to have in order to prevent being "asked to leave"...

If the retirement age was raised to age 70, and this was the guys first retirement trip, then maybe the police would be able to catch him when he ran off...

I thought Chief Wiggum was a made up character, but I guess he is based on the Williams police dept?

Ed B)


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## Guest

It doesnt mater if a person is drunk or not the conductor will make the call if he feels like a passenger is causing issues on the train the conductor will ether radio the head end to have the dispatcher call the police to meet the train or the conductor will call a station agent to contact the police upon arrival at stations.

since the conductor is in charge of the train/employees/passengers he will make the call if he thinks a person or persons are acting up.

It could mean as simple as raising your voice to them and carrying on to where they will think you are a threat to the passengers and crew.


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## George Harris

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Maybe "Not an Amtrak Fan" is "Lucifer" of "Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers." Can't see any other reason for someone to try to resurrect that irrational rant.

As someone else has said, usually someone having diabetic related problems, either hypoglycemic or high sugar is not going to be capable of running off in the woods.


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## yarrow

missing man found

i still think amtrak bears some responsibility for this for the reasons given in my above post


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## Dutchrailnut

*Maybe we all need to take a breath*, here is other article:

http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/2007/06/29/5290.html



> Roosevelt Sims, the diabetic man who was put off an Amtrak train in the middle of an Arizona forest for unruly behavior that Amtrak personnel assessed as alcohol-related, was found last night four days after his disappearance. Carrying a walking stick and wearing only his underwear, he was discovered beside a railroad track three miles south of the nearest town.
> It's a happy ending to a story that could have been tragic. The diabetes aspect of the situation, however, is less clear than initial reports indicated.


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## greatcats

Some of the information does not add up here. It says the man parked his car and tried to board the train. I have boarded the train at Williams Junction, which is indeed at a remote location a few miles east of town. Private autos are not permitted on BNSF property ( although I have driven in there myself to check the place out. ) Passengers are brought out from downtown Williams by the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel's van. Passengers check in with hotel staff in the lobby. The station patform for Amtrak is indeed in an obscure location out in the forest. There are no signs.


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## AlanB

greatcats said:


> Some of the information does not add up here. It says the man parked his car and tried to board the train. I have boarded the train at Williams Junction, which is indeed at a remote location a few miles east of town. Private autos are not permitted on BNSF property ( although I have driven in there myself to check the place out. ) Passengers are brought out from downtown Williams by the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel's van. Passengers check in with hotel staff in the lobby. The station patform for Amtrak is indeed in an obscure location out in the forest. There are no signs.


No, the man was already on the train when it pulled into Williams Junction. It was the police officer who was parking his car, so that he could pick up the man being taken off the train.


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## AlanB

I want to remind everyone of our policy regarding quoting of news stories on the board. I've edited two posts in this thread already to ensure that they meet the policy of never quoting more than a few paragraphs of the original story.

I ask everyone to please be aware of the policy and the fact that one cannot just quote an entire news story. Thanks!


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## greatcats

I have just read Arizona newspaper articles in today's papers, Flagstaff and Phoenix. Yes, the man boarded Amtrak in St. Louis enroute to Los Angeles and the police were called to Williams Junction. It appears to me that Amtrak handled matters properly, but it is perplexing as to why the local police did not find him until several days later. That station certainly is in an unusual location, out in the forest, but the arrangement for passengers works OK.


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## Not an Amtrak Fan

George Harris said:


> Not an Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. Maybe "Not an Amtrak Fan" is "Lucifer" of "Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers." Can't see any other reason for someone to try to resurrect that irrational rant.
> 
> As someone else has said, usually someone having diabetic related problems, either hypoglycemic or high sugar is not going to be capable of running off in the woods.
Click to expand...

No, I am not Lucifer, the OP of Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers, but I am a friend of his. I recently caught the story on CNN about the elderly diabetic man thrown off Amtrak in the middle of nowhere and felt my faith in humanity sink to a new low - again.

Amtrak's policy of abandoning its own paying passengers in the wilderness without regard for their health or ability to continue to their destination otherwise, should alarm and disturb every one of us. Diabetes and AIDS are life-threatening conditions. We all must agree that being selectively put off a train, in the middle of a desert or forest, at night, with no apparent way to continue the journey, and nobody around but police officers who are expecting to have to subdue an unruly stranger, must cause an incredible amount of stress. Most of us who know a person with AIDS, diabetes, cancer, or any other managed health issue, realize that their lives are stressful enough, and that when additional stress comes along that person's health suffers. This is especially true when the stress is particularly uncaring, leaving the person feeling hopeless and abandoned.

Being a friend of Lucifer's, I know that Amtrak has still not responded to his complaint. The additional money it cost him to get home after being dumped like an empty cardboard box in Provo, UT has not been refunded, and for a person on SSDI, several hundred dollars is money not easy to come by. And most importantly, after having enjoyed nearly nine months with few problems, his health took a hit from the stress caused by that incident, and I worry that the heartless, mean-spirited "handling" of the situation by the Amtrak staff has left him bitter and angry, with less reasons for him to want to recover.

In Mr. Sims' case, the crew was apparently not aware of his condition, in Lucifer's case they were. In either case, how dare they leave people who paid to get from one place to another somewhere in between, without concern about that person's ability to complete the journey - no cash refund, no travel arrangements, no notification to family or friends, not even nearby lodging to ensure that person's safety. In Mr. Sims situation I think Amtrak's behavior was appalling, in Lucifer's case I think it was contemptible.


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## Guest

greatcats said:


> I have just read Arizona newspaper articles in today's papers, Flagstaff and Phoenix. Yes, the man boarded Amtrak in St. Louis enroute to Los Angeles and the police were called to Williams Junction. It appears to me that Amtrak handled matters properly, but it is perplexing as to why the local police did not find him until several days later. That station certainly is in an unusual location, out in the forest, but the arrangement for passengers works OK.


How did Amtrak handle this situation "properly"???

According to the local police:

"Williams police told CBS 5 that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing

as a drop-off site in the past. [Lt. Mike] Graham said that whether drunk

or not, no one should be dropped off there.

'You don't put anyone off in an area like that,' Graham said."


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## Dutchrailnut

AlanB said:


> I want to remind everyone of our policy regarding quoting of news stories on the board. I've edited two posts in this thread already to ensure that they meet the policy of never quoting more than a few paragraphs of the original story.
> I ask everyone to please be aware of the policy and the fact that one cannot just quote an entire news story. Thanks!


Well we did not want to self moderate, we like to keep Americans employeed, Moderator is a job too :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## AlanB

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not an Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. Maybe "Not an Amtrak Fan" is "Lucifer" of "Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers." Can't see any other reason for someone to try to resurrect that irrational rant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I am not Lucifer, the OP of Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers, but I am a friend of his. I recently caught the story on CNN about the elderly diabetic man thrown off Amtrak in the middle of nowhere and felt my faith in humanity sink to a new low - again.
Click to expand...

Well you may not be, but the first post from "Not an Amtrak Fan" in this thread quoted directly above, did indeed come from the very same cable connection as all of Lucifer's posts. And unlike dial-up and even some DSL connections, cable companies aren't in the habit of assigning random addresses. So either you posted that first post from his computer or it was indeed Lucifer who made that first post.


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## AlanB

Guest said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just read Arizona newspaper articles in today's papers, Flagstaff and Phoenix. Yes, the man boarded Amtrak in St. Louis enroute to Los Angeles and the police were called to Williams Junction. It appears to me that Amtrak handled matters properly, but it is perplexing as to why the local police did not find him until several days later. That station certainly is in an unusual location, out in the forest, but the arrangement for passengers works OK.
> 
> 
> 
> How did Amtrak handle this situation "properly"???
> 
> According to the local police:
> 
> "Williams police told CBS 5 that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing
> 
> as a drop-off site in the past. [Lt. Mike] Graham said that whether drunk
> 
> or not, no one should be dropped off there.
> 
> 'You don't put anyone off in an area like that,' Graham said."
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that Mr. Graham is either an idiot, doesn't want the hassle of dealing with problem passengers, or is trying to deflect blame from the Williams Police department. Or perhaps it’s a combination of all three. The simple matter is that RR's having been doing just that for well over 50 years, if not longer. If an airline encounters an unruly passenger that the crew can't contain, they don't keep flying to their destination, they land at the nearest available airport that can handle them. Now I grant you that the airport isn't out in the middle of nowhere, but the simple fact is that one deals with the situation ASAP. They don't wait until the train or the plane reaches its ultimate destination.

Next, there seems to be conflicting stories here. One report has it just being a RR crossing, while other's have it happening at the Williams Junction Station. Note the references to the man running down the platform.

One thing that is clear here is that the crew would have no way of knowing that they were dealing with a diabetic, since he had by his own families admission, just been diagnosed the day before. I doubt that he was carrying any type of identification that would have alerted the crew to his condition or any medication for it. Then there is the idea that a man who was going into diabetic shock could run down the platform and away from a police officer. Couple that with the fact that he somehow managed to survive in the wilderness for 4 days with no food or medicine. If it was a sugar imbalance problem, he should have gone into shock and died by that time. I'm certainly not wishing that on him or anyone suffering from diabetes but again the facts don’t add up.

Finally, I for one can’t believe that the train totally ran out of food in both the café car and the dining car at that point in its journey. Especially since Amtrak now loads emergency food kits onto every train and in the case of major delays, makes arrangements to board food at stops down the line.


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## RailFanLNK

The "running out of food" thing had me perplexed. Isn't the SWC one of the better performing trains for OTP?Was the train that the man was on way behind? Now I can see it getting "low on food" if its a day late or 1/2 day late, but isn't Arizona right in the middle of the route? I could see it happening if its at the end of the route or wherever they replenish the food items. I'm wearing my Amtrak t-shirt today and already gotten two smart remarks. One from my sister who caught the story on Olberman. Another at a restaurant but I brought up some remarks from the forum that had that person questioning it as well. I majored in journalism (broadcasting) in college and walked away from the profession because even 25 years ago, you could "dog" something, be wrong and then never have a follow up story saying, "we were wrong".


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## AlanB

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> Amtrak's policy of abandoning its own paying passengers in the wilderness without regard for their health or ability to continue to their destination otherwise, should alarm and disturb every one of us. Diabetes and AIDS are life-threatening conditions. We all must agree that being selectively put off a train, in the middle of a desert or forest, at night, with no apparent way to continue the journey, and nobody around but police officers who are expecting to have to subdue an unruly stranger, must cause an incredible amount of stress. Most of us who know a person with AIDS, diabetes, cancer, or any other managed health issue, realize that their lives are stressful enough, and that when additional stress comes along that person's health suffers. This is especially true when the stress is particularly uncaring, leaving the person feeling hopeless and abandoned.
> Being a friend of Lucifer's, I know that Amtrak has still not responded to his complaint. The additional money it cost him to get home after being dumped like an empty cardboard box in Provo, UT has not been refunded, and for a person on SSDI, several hundred dollars is money not easy to come by. And most importantly, after having enjoyed nearly nine months with few problems, his health took a hit from the stress caused by that incident, and I worry that the heartless, mean-spirited "handling" of the situation by the Amtrak staff has left him bitter and angry, with less reasons for him to want to recover.
> 
> In Mr. Sims' case, the crew was apparently not aware of his condition, in Lucifer's case they were. In either case, how dare they leave people who paid to get from one place to another somewhere in between, without concern about that person's ability to complete the journey - no cash refund, no travel arrangements, no notification to family or friends, not even nearby lodging to ensure that person's safety. In Mr. Sims situation I think Amtrak's behavior was appalling, in Lucifer's case I think it was contemptible.


Whether such polices are right or wrong is a debate that could go on for a very long time I suspect. However, Amtrak's policy is no different than any other transportation company. I quote first from Amtrak's terms of travel.



> Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers:
> Who have not paid the applicable fare.
> 
> Whose conduct is objectionable (e.g., under the influence of alcohol or narcotics).
> 
> Whose personal hygiene makes them offensive.
> 
> Who pose a health or safety hazard to other passengers or employees.
> 
> Who refuse to comply with safety rules or with instructions of Amtrak personnel.
> 
> Who would require Amtrak personnel to provide personal care services or otherwise do not meet the essential requirements for the receipt of Amtrak services.
> 
> Amtrak employees or other authorized carrier representatives may remove such a passenger from the train at any inhabited place, as necessary under the circumstances, for any of the above reasons.


Those terms can be found on Amtrak's website by clicking here and all time tables distributed.

Now here's Delta's:



> F) Passenger’s Conduct or ConditionDelta will not refuse to provide transportation to an individual with a disability, as defined in 14
> 
> C.F.R. § 382.5 and 382.31, based upon his or her disability, except as provided in Rule 35(G),
> 
> below. Delta will not refuse to provide transportation based upon race, color, national origin,
> 
> religion, sex, or ancestry. Subject to those qualifications, Delta may refuse to transport any
> 
> passenger, or may remove any passenger from its aircraft, when refusal to transport or removal
> 
> of the passenger is reasonably necessary in Delta’s sole discretion for the passenger’s comfort
> 
> or safety, for the comfort or safety of other passengers or Delta employees, or for the prevention
> 
> of damage to the property of Delta or its passengers or employees. By way of example, and
> 
> without limitation, Delta may refuse to transport or may remove passengers from its aircraft in
> 
> any of the following situations:
> 
> 1) When the passenger’s conduct is disorderly, abusive or violent.
> 
> 2) When the passenger is barefoot.
> 
> 3) When the passenger appears to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs.
> 
> 4) When the passenger attempts to interfere with any member of the flight crew in the pursuit of
> 
> his or her duties, or fails to obey the instruction of any member of the flight crew.
> 
> 5) When the passenger has a contagious disease that may be transmissible to other passengers
> 
> during the normal course of the flight;
> 
> 6) When the passenger has a malodorous condition;
> 
> 7) When the passenger is unable to sit in a seat with the seatbelt fastened;
> 
> 8) When the passenger requires an onboard stretcher kit;
> 
> 9) When the passenger’s behavior may be hazardous to himself/herself, the crew, or other
> 
> passengers;
> 
> 10) When the passenger is seriously ill, and fails to provide a physician's written permission to
> 
> fly.
> 
> 11) When the passenger is traveling in an incubator.
> 
> 12) When the passenger’s conduct creates an unreasonable risk of offense or annoyance to
> 
> other passengers.
> 
> 13) When the passenger’s conduct creates a risk of harm or damage to the carrier’s aircraft
> 
> and/or property, or the property of other passengers.


Delta's terms can be found here.

Now again, I'm not suggesting one way or the other that Lucifer's case did or did not warrant his being thrown off the train. In Mr. Sims case, while things still aren't 100% clear, the evidence seems to be suggesting that he was indeed drunk, and not dealing with a low blood sugar condition. But the reality is that right or not, Amtrak's rules are quite clear and they are no different than any other company's rules.


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## Not an Amtrak Fan

AlanB said:


> Whether such polices are right or wrong is a debate that could go on for a very long time I suspect. However, Amtrak's policy is no different than any other transportation company. I quote first from Amtrak's terms of travel.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers...
> 
> 
> 
> Now here's Delta's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta will not refuse to provide transportation to an individual...except...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now again, I'm not suggesting one way or the other that Lucifer's case did or did not warrant his being thrown off the train. In Mr. Sims case, while things still aren't 100% clear, the evidence seems to be suggesting that he was indeed drunk, and not dealing with a low blood sugar condition. But the reality is that right or not, Amtrak's rules are quite clear and they are no different than any other company's rules.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information, I've shortened your lengthy quotes here to comply with your rules, and to highlight what I think is the real difference in these policies.

While Delta's policy states that it will NOT REFUSE to provide transportation except under certain conditions, Amtrak's policy flat out states that it MAY REFUSE to carry passengers under certain conditions. Delta's policy puts Delta staff on the defense immediately, stating that they are not to refuse to provide transportation and if they do, they must have a very good reason. Amtrak, however, appears to be providing a list of excuses their staff can use whenever they don't want to deal with someone.

I also noted that Delta's policy covers providing transportation, while Amtrak's only covers carrying passengers. Does this mean that Amtrak must provide other transportation for the disabled persons it so regularly dumps from its passenger trains? The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 sec. 12143 seems to say that it does.


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## gswager

As an EMT, if you smell a fruity smell (not alcohol) from his breath, then it's not drunk, it's diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) which is high blood sugar. It requires immediate emergency transport to the hospital.

For hypoglycemia, it can shown symptoms of a mimic of alcohol intoxication. The biggest difference is the absence of alcohol breath (not always, depending on consumption of alcohol. Best way to find out is to get information from bystanders (in case, passengers) who were around him over the period of several hours. That is the probably best way to diagnosis on patient's behavior. If in that case is diabetic, you can give him orange juice or other high sugar food such as soda, apple juice, raisins, honey, Lifesavers, etc. Again, you cannot give him his medication unless he's able to do it by himself, unless by trained professionals such as doctors, EMTs, etc.

I am still unclear if the police was already at the scene when the train arrived or the train was waiting for the police while the "unruly" passenger was outside of train or not. I believe it's the conductor's job to stay with him until the police tell the conductor that the police is taking over officially. That's where it's a clear define of who is in possession.


----------



## AlanB

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> While Delta's policy states that it will NOT REFUSE to provide transportation except under certain conditions, Amtrak's policy flat out states that it MAY REFUSE to carry passengers under certain conditions. Delta's policy puts Delta staff on the defense immediately, stating that they are not to refuse to provide transportation and if they do, they must have a very good reason. Amtrak, however, appears to be providing a list of excuses their staff can use whenever they don't want to deal with someone.


I note that you left out this critical part of the Delta terms:



> By way of example, and without limitation, *Delta **may** refuse to transport or **may** remove passengers * from its aircraft in any of the following situations:


That directly precedes the list of 13 reasons that Delta can refuse to transport passengers and it's language is not vastly different than Amtrak's.



Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> I also noted that Delta's policy covers providing transportation, while Amtrak's only covers carrying passengers. Does this mean that Amtrak must provide other transportation for the disabled persons it so regularly dumps from its passenger trains? The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 sec. 12143 seems to say that it does.


One finds Amtrak's policy under the "Terms of Transportation" link.


----------



## Guest

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not an Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. Maybe "Not an Amtrak Fan" is "Lucifer" of "Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers." Can't see any other reason for someone to try to resurrect that irrational rant.
> 
> As someone else has said, usually someone having diabetic related problems, either hypoglycemic or high sugar is not going to be capable of running off in the woods.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I am not Lucifer, the OP of Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers, but I am a friend of his. I recently caught the story on CNN about the elderly diabetic man thrown off Amtrak in the middle of nowhere and felt my faith in humanity sink to a new low - again.
> 
> Amtrak's policy of abandoning its own paying passengers in the wilderness without regard for their health or ability to continue to their destination otherwise, should alarm and disturb every one of us. Diabetes and AIDS are life-threatening conditions. We all must agree that being selectively put off a train, in the middle of a desert or forest, at night, with no apparent way to continue the journey, and nobody around but police officers who are expecting to have to subdue an unruly stranger, must cause an incredible amount of stress. Most of us who know a person with AIDS, diabetes, cancer, or any other managed health issue, realize that their lives are stressful enough, and that when additional stress comes along that person's health suffers. This is especially true when the stress is particularly uncaring, leaving the person feeling hopeless and abandoned.
> 
> Being a friend of Lucifer's, I know that Amtrak has still not responded to his complaint. The additional money it cost him to get home after being dumped like an empty cardboard box in Provo, UT has not been refunded, and for a person on SSDI, several hundred dollars is money not easy to come by. And most importantly, after having enjoyed nearly nine months with few problems, his health took a hit from the stress caused by that incident, and I worry that the heartless, mean-spirited "handling" of the situation by the Amtrak staff has left him bitter and angry, with less reasons for him to want to recover.
> 
> In Mr. Sims' case, the crew was apparently not aware of his condition, in Lucifer's case they were. In either case, how dare they leave people who paid to get from one place to another somewhere in between, without concern about that person's ability to complete the journey - no cash refund, no travel arrangements, no notification to family or friends, not even nearby lodging to ensure that person's safety. In Mr. Sims situation I think Amtrak's behavior was appalling, in Lucifer's case I think it was contemptible.
Click to expand...

(sigh) OK, let's recap what was printed clearly in every news story: the man was NOT "abandoned", he was standing with beside the conductor waiting for the police to arrive (they saw the man before he ran). Just because this man was a "Paying passenger" does NOT give him the right to impair the safety and security of the train or its passengers, or even to interfere with safe and timely operation of same. Amtrak policy is that such removals are a last resort, and given the man's ability to run off into the forest, he was not some feeble old man. He had clearly presented an immediate threat to the safe operation of the train, and Amtrak personnel were completely within their rights, and doing the sensible thing for all concerned, to remove him.

Also, as alluded to before, no one in any kind of true diabetic shock would be able to make that dash; in addition to having a diabetic brother-in-law (type 1) and a late diabetic grandmother (type 2), I was on train 2 a year or so ago when a man behavin similarly was removed at Palm Springs - through a 2nd level window, due to the fact that he couldn't be squeezed down the stairwell on the gurney, and had passed out after cussing out everyone within earshot. Upon inspection of his personal things, police and fire department personnel found bags with dozens of prescription medications, and a bottle of vodka...an EMPTY bottle of vodka...I'm just saying...


----------



## daveyb99

Not an Amtrak Fan said:


> No, I am not Lucifer, the OP of Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers, but I am a friend of his. I recently caught the story on CNN about the elderly diabetic man thrown off Amtrak in the middle of nowhere and felt my faith in humanity sink to a new low - again.


LET THIS TOPIC DIE.

No one will ever talk sense to people who can never take personal responsibility.

LET IT DIE


----------



## Lucifer

George Harris said:


> Not an Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nsaspook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. They dropped the guy off in a forest.
> 
> Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another thread:
> 
> Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers
> 
> Amtrak should be held accountable!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. Maybe "Not an Amtrak Fan" is "Lucifer" of "Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers." Can't see any other reason for someone to try to resurrect that irrational rant.
> 
> As someone else has said, usually someone having diabetic related problems, either hypoglycemic or high sugar is not going to be capable of running off in the woods.
Click to expand...

Hello....Lucifer here. "Not an Amtrak Fan" is my partner of sorts and was indeed posting from my computer last p.m. He's usually a very "let's not make waves" kinda guy and for him to get as upset as he's been over what I was put through by Amtrak, is a good measure of how wrongly I was treated. Sorry if you found my "rant" irrational but at the time I was upset and wanted to make sure all the facts were stated before I forgot them.

"Not an Amtrak Fan" saw the case of Mr Sims being thrown off the train in a forest as similar enough to mine to comment. As an RN I know that the symptoms of insulin shock and of blood sugars that are way too high historically are often mistaken in patients as drunkeness. There's sometimes an acetone smell to their breath or a fruity sweet smell that is mistaken for alcohol consumption. Even if Mr Sims had one or two drinks, as a newly diagnosed diabetic he may not have realized his new inability to process alcohol as easily also.

I realize that most on this forum are very pro-Amtrak and I am too in many ways. Your tendency to become ultra defensive and protective of a railsystem you love doesn't help it survive though. On the contrary, glossing over these issues lets more and more incidences like mine and Mr Sims' happen and chips away at the entire company.

1. Viable and realistic and creative problem solving techniques were certanly not used in my case and I doubt that they were in the Sims case either.

2. Traveling on a disability discounted ticket needs to ensure that the patient's medical needs are addressed! A licensed physician is the only qualified person cabable of determining what the patient needs and this policy of letting CONDUCTORS with no medical training make judgement calls involving passenger health. If a passenger does not disclose his disability to Amtrak staff, this is another story entirely but in my case and I believe in the Sims case, Amtrak staff was made very aware of our compromised health status. Just because I may "look okay" to some conductor taking issue with me, doesn't mean I can be expected to endure the physical and emotional consequences of being removed from the train the same as "healthy" or even "average" passengers. I'm not allowed because of my health to work so why was I expected to be strong enough to scramble home from Provo to San Francisco after being ripped from a sound sleep and forced to terminate the trip I'd already paid for? And indeed I still suffer the consequences physically, emotionally, and financially more so than a guy my age without my debilitating diagnosis would have. Same with Mr Sims! Only a doctor should be allowed to decide what a disabled passenger is capable of tolerating, not an under educated train worker!


----------



## Lucifer

daveyb99 said:


> From the article:
> 
> Amtrak personnel told police dispatchers that Sims was drunk and unruly.
> 
> 
> 
> When officers arrived at the crossing, police said, Sims ran into the woods, leaving his luggage and medication behind.
> 
> 
> 
> Cell phone records show that Sims' phone was last used in Litchfield Park, Ariz., 180 miles from Williams.
> 
> 
> 
> Williams police told CBS 5 that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing as a drop-off site in the past. Graham said that whether drunk or not, no one should be dropped off there.
> ​
> 
> 
> OK, so AMTRAK contacted the Williams, AZ Police Department, who met the train at the crossing (as they likely have done in the past, per Williams PD) and AMTRAK discharged this person into Police custody.
> 
> So, what is the problem.
> 
> The Sims family said Sims is diabetic and was going into shock.
> ​
> 
> 
> First off, how would the Sims family know this if they were not there. He might be diabetic, but maybe - just maybe - he was drunk.
> 
> Also, notice no mention of any Medical Bracelet, ID Tag, or records of any kind in the luggage. I am sure AMTRAK folks are trained to look for that info. I know we were at the Fort Worth, TX PD. Drunk vs. Diabetic is very difficult to detect for a non-medic, especially if the person is unruly.
> 
> There usually is more to the story than the headlines, and this is a good example.


In my case I was travelling on a disability discounted ticket and carrying the required documentation that I was never asked to present even when the trouble began and I noted my AIDS diagnosis or when the ordeal ended with me declaring "I can't believe you're throwing an AIDS patient off the train in the middle of the night 1000 miles from home! You're making a huge mistake!" They didn't care one bit what my diagnosis was and even if the physician's letter of diagnosis had said "Exposure to Utah air will cause certain death to this person" they wouldn't have cared as they refused to even look at it. I suspect the same would be true with this diabetic passenger. Once their simple undereducated minds are made up, many conductors don't want to hear anything, especially cold hard facts, that disprove their faulty conclusions.


----------



## Lucifer

daveyb99 said:


> Not an Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am not Lucifer, the OP of Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers, but I am a friend of his. I recently caught the story on CNN about the elderly diabetic man thrown off Amtrak in the middle of nowhere and felt my faith in humanity sink to a new low - again.
> 
> 
> 
> LET THIS TOPIC DIE.
> 
> No one will ever talk sense to people who can never take personal responsibility.
> 
> LET IT DIE
Click to expand...

Lucifer here and in what way do you believe I do not take "personal responsibility" and for what? I was not drunk. I was not beligerant. I was not "smelly" as per the conductor's assessment as noted by a majority of the passengers and by the people who picked me up at the airport. I was not harassing anybody but running for assistance after being physically threatened by one of the passengers who had issue with me to start with. And how can a diabetic man who's disoriented as per diagnosis be expected to take "personal responsibility" ? I'm almost suspecting you're saying you'd rather have the likes of Mr Sims and I LEFT TO DIE! How outrageous are you?


----------



## EmpireBuilderFan1976

Lucifer said:


> I'm almost suspecting you're saying you'd rather have the likes of Mr Sims and I LEFT TO DIE! How outrageous are you?


Kind of an irrational conclusion you came to there Lucifer, don't you think.


----------



## AmtrakFan

Folks,

Something doesn't add up here, claming the DIner is out of food is not true, if it was there would be a riot on the Train and we would have heard about it by now. My Guess is he was in a state of diabetic shot and didn't know there was food.


----------



## AlanB

Lucifer said:


> "Not an Amtrak Fan" saw the case of Mr Sims being thrown off the train in a forest as similar enough to mine to comment. As an RN I know that the symptoms of insulin shock and of blood sugars that are way too high historically are often mistaken in patients as drunkeness. There's sometimes an acetone smell to their breath or a fruity sweet smell that is mistaken for alcohol consumption. Even if Mr Sims had one or two drinks, as a newly diagnosed diabetic he may not have realized his new inability to process alcohol as easily also.


All of the above is true, I agree. The problem here is that if indeed this man was suffering from a sugar imbalance, how did he survive in the wilderness for 4 days with no clothes, no money, and no food or water. If his capacity to deal with sugar was that badly impaired to the point that he appeared drunk, then while I hate to say it, why isn't he dead from insulin shock? People can die within hours of experiencing a major sugar imbalance, who did he last 4 days?



Lucifer said:


> 2. Traveling on a disability discounted ticket needs to ensure that the patient's medical needs are addressed! A licensed physician is the only qualified person cabable of determining what the patient needs and this policy of letting CONDUCTORS with no medical training make judgement calls involving passenger health. If a passenger does not disclose his disability to Amtrak staff, this is another story entirely but in my case and I believe in the Sims case, Amtrak staff was made very aware of our compromised health status. Just because I may "look okay" to some conductor taking issue with me, doesn't mean I can be expected to endure the physical and emotional consequences of being removed from the train the same as "healthy" or even "average" passengers. I'm not allowed because of my health to work so why was I expected to be strong enough to scramble home from Provo to San Francisco after being ripped from a sound sleep and forced to terminate the trip I'd already paid for? And indeed I still suffer the consequences physically, emotionally, and financially more so than a guy my age without my debilitating diagnosis would have. Same with Mr Sims! Only a doctor should be allowed to decide what a disabled passenger is capable of tolerating, not an under educated train worker!


First, I rather doubt that Mr. Sims disclosed his condition to Amtrak. He was only diagnosed the day before he departed on the train. Is it possible? Sure, I have to allow for that. But again, I think it highly unlikely. In fact I rather suspect that he may well have been in denial at that point, which may well mean that he had indeed gotten himself legally drunk.

However, even if we assume that I'm dead wrong and indeed he was suffering from a sugar imbalance here's my question to you. You've already quite clearly stated that the Conductors have no medical training, which by the way I believe isn't true as they all have to take first aid courses, but even if correct, what would you have them do? They have a passenger that they aren't medically qualified to help.

If they did realize that he was suffering from low blood sugar, they can’t force him to drink juice. And they certainly can’t inject him with a dose of glucose, assuming that he was carrying one. If he had gone the other way, too much sugar, even if they find his insulin, they can't legally give it to him. And remember, he was diagnosed the day before he set out on this trip, so it’s unlikely that he was carrying anything. So what would you rather have them do, let the guy annoy all of the other passengers on the train until he collapses into a diabetic shock? Then haul off the dead body to the dining car and put it in the freezer. Or call the local police and have them deal with it?

No, I think in the case above that the correct answer is to call the police and have the man taken off so that he can be properly evaluated and treated as necessary, whether that means giving him sugar or a night in a jail cell. Amtrak can't call the hospital, since they wouldn't know what one to call and they can't legally put someone off the train into the custody of an EMT.

Second, I for one have to wonder why the police didn't give chase to the man. They were there. He didn't start running until after he saw the policeman coming his way. Even worse, the police didn't even start looking for this guy, until the next day when the family informed them of his medical condition. At least Amtrak tried to do the right thing, knowing that they couldn't properly deal with Mr. Sims regardless of what his problem was at that moment. The police just threw up their hands and said whatever. Mr. Sims was less than 15 seconds away from being in their custody, yet they washed their hands of the entire incident. For all intents and purposes, they should have considered him in their custody and pursued him vigorously.

Regardless of whether he was drunk or suffering from a sugar related problem, is it not their sworn duty to protect and serve? How are they serving, by letting a man whom they believe is drunk as a skunk run off into the woods?

Next, it is simply not possible for Amtrak to ensure that all the medical needs of a disabled passenger are met. As you pointed out, they aren’t doctors and nurses. Amtrak is required to accommodate disabled passengers, but there is a certain level of responsibility that the passenger must still assume for their own care. Amtrak is not a nursing home. On the other hand, Amtrak is actually more flexible than most airlines. For example, Amtrak routinely carries passengers who require oxygen, while airlines refuse to carry their oxygen tanks.

In Mr. Sims case, if indeed it was a sugar imbalance problem that led to his troubles, he did not ensure that he had taken the proper steps to maintain his health. Again, it is not Amtrak’s responsibility to administer any form of therapy to fix that problem. Not only is it not their responsibility, they can’t legally do it.

And just because one is traveling with a disabled ticket doesn’t give one cart blanch either. If there is a passenger sitting in a wheel chair on the lower level of the coach, who is singing at the top of their lungs at 3 in the morning and they refuse to shut up after several requests from the crew, what would you have Amtrak do? Inconvenience the other 74 passengers in that car? Or call the police and have the person removed?

Granted that is an extreme case, but the person is clearly disabled. There is no need to show papers or anything else. But according to your statement above, since they’re disabled Amtrak should just let them continue on.

Finally, I believe that this case is vastly different than yours. From all accounts, Mr. Sims appeared to all on board to be visibly drunk. Whether he was really drunk or suffering from a sugar imbalance, he was indeed creating a problem for all. But it would appear from the evidence that is in, that it wasn’t a sugar imbalance or if it was, then it was compounded by alcohol. In your case, your medical condition had little to do with why you were thrown off the train. And at least from the facts in evidence, it wasn’t the entire train thinking that you were a problem.


----------



## Lucifer

EmpireBuilderFan1976 said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost suspecting you're saying you'd rather have the likes of Mr Sims and I LEFT TO DIE! How outrageous are you?
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of an irrational conclusion you came to there Lucifer, don't you think.
Click to expand...

No, I didn't "conclude" anything but by the use of all caps and a "let it die" sentiment expressed twice in response to a discussion about passengers with life threatening conditions, most rational people could "almost suspect" a desire expressed for Mr Sims and I to just die. Kind of irrational to be putting words in people's mouths there EmpireBuilderFan1976, don't you think?


----------



## George Harris

It is way past time to put a lock on this, if not simply delete a lot of it outright and then lock the rest.

My father lived with diabetes for nearly 20 years with no real complaints other than some disscussion with those involved of the matter of fact necessities of dealing with it. I also had another relative by marriage that lived with it for quite a number of years, again without making big issues of things. I have also heard others carry on like their world had ended. News flash! We were not promised a trouble free existance. Life has problems. Deal with it.

I do not believe that anybody's disease is supposed to give them a free pass for either stupid and irrational behavior or whiney mouthing off about how pathetic they are and that the world should change its point of rotation so that it revolves around them. There are probably a lot of people out there traveling and trying to avoid being an imposition to others that are in much worse condition than the main complainer here.

I could say more, but I am trying to remain minimally polite here.


----------



## Lucifer

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Not an Amtrak Fan" saw the case of Mr Sims being thrown off the train in a forest as similar enough to mine to comment. As an RN I know that the symptoms of insulin shock and of blood sugars that are way too high historically are often mistaken in patients as drunkeness. There's sometimes an acetone smell to their breath or a fruity sweet smell that is mistaken for alcohol consumption. Even if Mr Sims had one or two drinks, as a newly diagnosed diabetic he may not have realized his new inability to process alcohol as easily also.
> 
> 
> 
> All of the above is true, I agree. The problem here is that if indeed this man was suffering from a sugar imbalance, how did he survive in the wilderness for 4 days with no clothes, no money, and no food or water. If his capacity to deal with sugar was that badly impaired to the point that he appeared drunk, then while I hate to say it, why isn't he dead from insulin shock? People can die within hours of experiencing a major sugar imbalance, who did he last 4 days?
> 
> 
> 
> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Traveling on a disability discounted ticket needs to ensure that the patient's medical needs are addressed! A licensed physician is the only qualified person cabable of determining what the patient needs and this policy of letting CONDUCTORS with no medical training make judgement calls involving passenger health. If a passenger does not disclose his disability to Amtrak staff, this is another story entirely but in my case and I believe in the Sims case, Amtrak staff was made very aware of our compromised health status. Just because I may "look okay" to some conductor taking issue with me, doesn't mean I can be expected to endure the physical and emotional consequences of being removed from the train the same as "healthy" or even "average" passengers. I'm not allowed because of my health to work so why was I expected to be strong enough to scramble home from Provo to San Francisco after being ripped from a sound sleep and forced to terminate the trip I'd already paid for? And indeed I still suffer the consequences physically, emotionally, and financially more so than a guy my age without my debilitating diagnosis would have. Same with Mr Sims! Only a doctor should be allowed to decide what a disabled passenger is capable of tolerating, not an under educated train worker!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, I rather doubt that Mr. Sims disclosed his condition to Amtrak. He was only diagnosed the day before he departed on the train. Is it possible? Sure, I have to allow for that. But again, I think it highly unlikely. In fact I rather suspect that he may well have been in denial at that point, which may well mean that he had indeed gotten himself legally drunk.
> 
> However, even if we assume that I'm dead wrong and indeed he was suffering from a sugar imbalance here's my question to you. You've already quite clearly stated that the Conductors have no medical training, which by the way I believe isn't true as they all have to take first aid courses, but even if correct, what would you have them do? They have a passenger that they aren't medically qualified to help.
> 
> If they did realize that he was suffering from low blood sugar, they can’t force him to drink juice. And they certainly can’t inject him with a dose of glucose, assuming that he was carrying one. If he had gone the other way, too much sugar, even if they find his insulin, they can't legally give it to him. And remember, he was diagnosed the day before he set out on this trip, so it’s unlikely that he was carrying anything. So what would you rather have them do, let the guy annoy all of the other passengers on the train until he collapses into a diabetic shock? Then haul off the dead body to the dining car and put it in the freezer. Or call the local police and have them deal with it?
> 
> No, I think in the case above that the correct answer is to call the police and have the man taken off so that he can be properly evaluated and treated as necessary, whether that means giving him sugar or a night in a jail cell. Amtrak can't call the hospital, since they wouldn't know what one to call and they can't legally put someone off the train into the custody of an EMT.
> 
> Second, I for one have to wonder why the police didn't give chase to the man. They were there. He didn't start running until after he saw the policeman coming his way. Even worse, the police didn't even start looking for this guy, until the next day when the family informed them of his medical condition. At least Amtrak tried to do the right thing, knowing that they couldn't properly deal with Mr. Sims regardless of what his problem was at that moment. The police just threw up their hands and said whatever. Mr. Sims was less than 15 seconds away from being in their custody, yet they washed their hands of the entire incident. For all intents and purposes, they should have considered him in their custody and pursued him vigorously.
> 
> Regardless of whether he was drunk or suffering from a sugar related problem, is it not their sworn duty to protect and serve? How are they serving, by letting a man whom they believe is drunk as a skunk run off into the woods?
> 
> Next, it is simply not possible for Amtrak to ensure that all the medical needs of a disabled passenger are met. As you pointed out, they aren’t doctors and nurses. Amtrak is required to accommodate disabled passengers, but there is a certain level of responsibility that the passenger must still assume for their own care. Amtrak is not a nursing home. On the other hand, Amtrak is actually more flexible than most airlines. For example, Amtrak routinely carries passengers who require oxygen, while airlines refuse to carry their oxygen tanks.
> 
> In Mr. Sims case, if indeed it was a sugar imbalance problem that led to his troubles, he did not ensure that he had taken the proper steps to maintain his health. Again, it is not Amtrak’s responsibility to administer any form of therapy to fix that problem. Not only is it not their responsibility, they can’t legally do it.
> 
> And just because one is traveling with a disabled ticket doesn’t give one cart blanch either. If there is a passenger sitting in a wheel chair on the lower level of the coach, who is singing at the top of their lungs at 3 in the morning and they refuse to shut up after several requests from the crew, what would you have Amtrak do? Inconvenience the other 74 passengers in that car? Or call the police and have the person removed?
> 
> Granted that is an extreme case, but the person is clearly disabled. There is no need to show papers or anything else. But according to your statement above, since they’re disabled Amtrak should just let them continue on.
> 
> Finally, I believe that this case is vastly different than yours. From all accounts, Mr. Sims appeared to all on board to be visibly drunk. Whether he was really drunk or suffering from a sugar imbalance, he was indeed creating a problem for all. But it would appear from the evidence that is in, that it wasn’t a sugar imbalance or if it was, then it was compounded by alcohol. In your case, your medical condition had little to do with why you were thrown off the train. And at least from the facts in evidence, it wasn’t the entire train thinking that you were a problem.
Click to expand...

On board an already very late and full to the brim train out of Chicago on the eastward portion of my trip, there was an otherwise well dressed older man with very very gnarly feet minus a big toe, no shoes or socks, making no sense and was walking up and down the aisles of every car trying to claim other peoples' shoes. He got a bit beligerant and threatening and the conductor wound up calling an ambulance and we all waited. That was handled quite well and appropriately.

In my case I think but have no way of proving that my diagnosis actually contributed to the conductor's preconcieved judgements against me. For whatever reason she seemed more intent on causing problems for me than solving anybody's issues when if I indeed did smell bad to her and the handful of passengers she solicited complaints from she could have offered me a shower or moved my seat up a car where the passengers were rigorously supporting me and stating a lack of odor. No, my disability had nothing to do with why I was thrown off the train, there was no reason for me to be thrown off the train, but because of it she should have at least explored other possible ways of solving the problem without putting me through the physical strain of being dumped in Provo with an obviously stressful and rigorous trek ahead trying to get home from there. Would Amtrak leave a paralyzed passenger on the platform with no wheelchair to crawl their way home? What about a crying baby? She seemed very intent on making things as difficult as possible for me and in no way was trying to make anybody comfortable

And even if it was drunkeness that caused Mr Sims disorientation, he was disoriented none the less, and for whatever the reason should not have been "almost" handed over from one authority with first aid training to the police, generally even less educated medically, at a desolate stop in the forest.

Honestly, I'm all for more funding and staffing for what remains of America's Railways as like it or not, when given the power to make life or death judgement calls like these, these conductors should not be so over worked that they can't give these situations the time and consideration they warrant. With less staff and the remaining staff forced to pick up the slack, it makes sense that higher caliber employees both pass the company by and if they do sign on don't last long leaving less desirable employees who have difficulty obtaining and maintaining jobs elsewhere handling responsibilities that are beyond their abilities.


----------



## AlanB

Lucifer said:


> And even if it was drunkeness that caused Mr Sims disorientation, he was disoriented none the less, and for whatever the reason should not have been "almost" handed over from one authority with first aid training to the police, generally even less educated medically, at a desolate stop in the forest.


So then what's the answer? Keep the man on board for another 7 hours until the train reaches Victorville CA. (the next major stop that's not out in the forest) at 4:00 AM? All the while trying to guard him and keep him from jumping off the train if he is disorientated. Or falling down the stairs and breaking his leg. Or worse, becoming violent and hurting another passenger. The conductors can't devote that kind of time to one person for any reason.

And if he was having sugar problems, waiting until Victorville would delay getting him treatment for 7 hours.


----------



## Lucifer

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> And even if it was drunkeness that caused Mr Sims disorientation, he was disoriented none the less, and for whatever the reason should not have been "almost" handed over from one authority with first aid training to the police, generally even less educated medically, at a desolate stop in the forest.
> 
> 
> 
> So then what's the answer? Keep the man on board for another 7 hours until the train reaches Victorville CA. (the next major stop that's not out in the forest) at 4:00 AM? All the while trying to guard him and keep him from jumping off the train if he is disorientated. Or falling down the stairs and breaking his leg. Or worse, becoming violent and hurting another passenger. The conductors can't devote that kind of time to one person for any reason.
> 
> And if he was having sugar problems, waiting until Victorville would delay getting him treatment for 7 hours.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying about funding and staffing cuts to Amtrak that create such situations. With a more reasonable number of staff onboard than the present budget and current legislation allows perhaps somebody would have had the time to notice and rectify the problem sooner. If there was even one extra Amtrak employee on board, yes, he could have been monitored and isolated as best possible for the 7 hours till the next major stop. Or at least they should have made sure there was an ambulance at the isolated stop to be sure he'd be cared for properly.


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## AlanB

Lucifer said:


> That's what I'm saying about funding and staffing cuts to Amtrak that create such situations. With a more reasonable number of staff onboard than the present budget and current legislation allows perhaps somebody would have had the time to notice and rectify the problem sooner. If there was even one extra Amtrak employee on board, yes, he could have been monitored and isolated as best possible for the 7 hours till the next major stop. Or at least they should have made sure there was an ambulance at the isolated stop to be sure he'd be cared for properly.


First, the idea of paying for an extra employee just in case there is a problem on an Amtrak train, I'm sorry is simply crazy. There are far too many other areas where Amtrak needs to spend money, before they start worrying about the occasional problem. In fact, no transportation company would ever consider doing so. Amtrak is not a baby sitting service, nor is it a care facility. It is a transportation company.

Second I think that I need to better explain how things work with Amtrak, as I can see in your response that you aren't fully aware of how things work. Except for here on the East Coast between DC and Boston, Amtrak doesn't run on tracks that they own. They run on tracks owned by the freight companies. Because of that, some of the procedures for dealing with any problem aren't Amtrak's. Amtrak doesn't call the local police when there is a problem. The conductor radios the engineer, who in turn radios the host RR Company. It is up to them to call the police, ambulance, or any other type of rescue personnel.

Next, Amtrak needs permission from the host if they are stopping at any place other than a normal station. It is up to the host RR to pick that location. Amtrak can request a location, but that does not mean that they will be granted the location of their choice. The dispatcher determines the location based upon his plan to keep the rest of the railroad moving. And again that dispatcher doesn't work for Amtrak.

Finally, there is no place on an Amtrak train to "secure" and individual, especially one who is either seriously drunk or deranged by some medical condition. You can't lock them in a sleeper, since the rooms only lock from the inside. Even if you could, a man that is capable of running away from a policeman could easily remove the emergency window and jump out while the train is at track speed. There is no place in coach to secure anyone. And locking them in a bathroom would be considered cruel and unusual treatment and subject Amtrak to a lawsuit.

Therefore the passenger is put off the train at the earliest opportunity. Frankly if Amtrak did anything wrong in this case, it was that the conductor opened the door before the cops arrived. I'm far more concerned with why the cops did not pursue this man. Amtrak conducted itself within the letter of the law and made a good faith attempt to turn Mr. Sims over to the authorities. It is not their responsibility to diagnose an individual and then baby-sit him until he reaches his proper destination. And in fact they could probably be sued if they did try to restrain him. It is their responsibility to provide transportation and nothing more. The failure here lies with the officer who shrugged his shoulders and did not pursue Mr. Sims, and call for backup to help him find Mr. Sims.


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## Lucifer

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I'm saying about funding and staffing cuts to Amtrak that create such situations. With a more reasonable number of staff onboard than the present budget and current legislation allows perhaps somebody would have had the time to notice and rectify the problem sooner. If there was even one extra Amtrak employee on board, yes, he could have been monitored and isolated as best possible for the 7 hours till the next major stop. Or at least they should have made sure there was an ambulance at the isolated stop to be sure he'd be cared for properly.
> 
> 
> 
> First, the idea of paying for an extra employee just in case there is a problem on an Amtrak train, I'm sorry is simply crazy. There are far too many other areas where Amtrak needs to spend money, before they start worrying about the occasional problem. In fact, no transportation company would ever consider doing so. Amtrak is not a baby sitting service, nor is it a care facility. It is a transportation company.
> 
> Second I think that I need to better explain how things work with Amtrak, as I can see in your response that you aren't fully aware of how things work. Except for here on the East Coast between DC and Boston, Amtrak doesn't run on tracks that they own. They run on tracks owned by the freight companies. Because of that, some of the procedures for dealing with any problem aren't Amtrak's. Amtrak doesn't call the local police when there is a problem. The conductor radios the engineer, who in turn radios the host RR Company. It is up to them to call the police, ambulance, or any other type of rescue personnel.
> 
> Next, Amtrak needs permission from the host if they are stopping at any place other than a normal station. It is up to the host RR to pick that location. Amtrak can request a location, but that does not mean that they will be granted the location of their choice. The dispatcher determines the location based upon his plan to keep the rest of the railroad moving. And again that dispatcher doesn't work for Amtrak.
> 
> Finally, there is no place on an Amtrak train to "secure" and individual, especially one who is either seriously drunk or deranged by some medical condition. You can't lock them in a sleeper, since the rooms only lock from the inside. Even if you could, a man that is capable of running away from a policeman could easily remove the emergency window and jump out while the train is at track speed. There is no place in coach to secure anyone. And locking them in a bathroom would be considered cruel and unusual treatment and subject Amtrak to a lawsuit.
> 
> Therefore the passenger is put off the train at the earliest opportunity. Frankly if Amtrak did anything wrong in this case, it was that the conductor opened the door before the cops arrived. I'm far more concerned with why the cops did not pursue this man. Amtrak conducted itself within the letter of the law and made a good faith attempt to turn Mr. Sims over to the authorities. It is not their responsibility to diagnose an individual and then baby-sit him until he reaches his proper destination. And in fact they could probably be sued if they did try to restrain him. It is their responsibility to provide transportation and nothing more. The failure here lies with the officer who shrugged his shoulders and did not pursue Mr. Sims, and call for backup to help him find Mr. Sims.
Click to expand...

I didn't say they should spend money for one extra person to hang out and wait for the occasional problem, I said they should have enough staff on board to spread the work out more sanely. What I saw was workloads stretched to the max, filthy bathrooms with nobody to clean them, Amtrak employees on duty for way too many hours and even complaining to passengers about it, and a disorganized clutter of snacks, condiments, and utensils in the bar car that got more and more tangled with every mile. With a staff as overburdened as they seemed to be to me, it's no wonder poor and hasty decisions get made and passenger safety is compromised. I'd be curious to know what was actually done on board to identify the problem, prevent it from escalating, and what measures were taken to rectify it as obviously this problem could've been handled alot better and if Mr Sims was handled as aggresively and judgementally as I was, I understand why he went running scared into the woods.

It's interesting to me too how quickly the conductor in April on the Zephyr after poking and shoving me awake and insisting I move to an isolated and undesirable seat felt entitled to publicly insist I'd been drinking too much when I'd had only one beer with dinner and a bloody mary some 12 hours before and had been nothing but cooperative. Her level of indignation as she leapt from her seat and intense discussion with the other new conductor upon seeing I'd left my new seat, unaware even that she had intended for me to confine myself there, was confrontational and aggresive enough to prompt the other passengers to start voicing their concerns so if Mr. Sims was forced to deal with a similar level of antagonism, his need to flee is understandable. At the very most I was incredulous as the situation unfolded and am still appalled at the rapid flip in my status from "welcome passenger and valued customer" to "troublemaker" with the change of staff while I was sound asleep!


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## Lucifer

I do appreciate Alan, your explanation of the chain of command on board that is involved in contacting local authorities, but these actions appropriate or not, are based on the assessment of the conductor, and from my experience I'm suggesting a lack of ability of overworked conductors to make such drastic judgement calls.


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## Lucifer

George Harris said:


> It is way past time to put a lock on this, if not simply delete a lot of it outright and then lock the rest.
> My father lived with diabetes for nearly 20 years with no real complaints other than some disscussion with those involved of the matter of fact necessities of dealing with it. I also had another relative by marriage that lived with it for quite a number of years, again without making big issues of things. I have also heard others carry on like their world had ended. News flash! We were not promised a trouble free existance. Life has problems. Deal with it.
> 
> I do not believe that anybody's disease is supposed to give them a free pass for either stupid and irrational behavior or whiney mouthing off about how pathetic they are and that the world should change its point of rotation so that it revolves around them. There are probably a lot of people out there traveling and trying to avoid being an imposition to others that are in much worse condition than the main complainer here.
> 
> I could say more, but I am trying to remain minimally polite here.


And minimally polite you've been indeed!

Your personal awarenes of two isolated cases of diabetics and their handling of this life threatening condition gives you authority enough to judge? My mother is diabetic and not able to easily handle her blood sugars and after working for 11 years as an ICU nurse where at any given moment approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of the patients have some degree of diabetes with complications like coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease that frequently leads to amputation, blindness, kidney disease, and stroke, I am quite familiar with the extreme range of different diabetics' bodies being able to tolerate or not tolerate varying levels of blood sugar. For some their sugars are easily managed with little to no variance, others can tolerate incredibly high or low blood sugars with no obvious distress, while others are not so lucky and slide into a coma with the same blood sugar level that other diabetics don't even call out sick from work over. Some diabetics are extremely sensitive to insulin treatment and oral medications and the same dose that barely effects one patient will sometimes kill another and for others their reactions are never the same twice.

I'm surviving reasonably well with AIDS that I contracted in 1979 when I was 17 years old before it was even identified, am quite self sufficient and not an imposition on anyone and am familiar with issues surrounding survival of a long term managable illness. Your post reminds me that prejudice, judgemental attitudes, and misinformation are ugly, unnecessary hurtles people like me and Mr Sims face. I don't ask for special treatment until it's absolutely warranted but I'll be damned if I'll be targeted to suffer uncalled for consequences BECAUSE of my diagnosis. Being thrown off a train for being accused of harassment for venturing away from a seat I was assigned to that forced me to walk past aggressive passengers who verbally insisted on trying to engage me in argument and eventually threatened me physically for ignoring their jabs, is alot harder on my body than the average person's. This hardship must be considered especially when I'm aware of other options that weren't even considered, and when there was plenty of support for my overall unoffensive demeanor from other passengers and even other Amtrak staff who'd travelled from Chicago with me that the new conductors refused to even hear! Although I tried, I wasn't even permitted to defend myself or express my legitimate fear after being threatened to be thrown down the stairs by a passenger who'd self appointed himself to dictate my seating, patrol my confinement to it, and threaten physical punishment on me if I were to leave it despite the conductor's reluctant brief agreement to allow me freedom to move about the train.

If Mr Sims was subjected to anything close to this I can understand how he panicked and was given no way to avoid trouble once the ball was rolling so I feel for the guy and know all too well how impossible it can be to even be given a fair shake with a conductor throwing around inflammatory accusations of drunkeness, harassment, & stench that a train full of strangers have only limited reason not to believe.


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## caravanman

I am often astonished at how much milage there is in some of these topics! Have any further *hard facts * come to light about the fate or condition of the athletic senior citizen who out ran "Chief Wiggum" ?

Ed B)


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## George Harris

Lucifer said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> We were not promised a trouble free existance. Life has problems. Deal with it.
> I do not believe that anybody's disease is supposed to give them a free pass for either stupid and irrational behavior or whiney mouthing off about how pathetic they are and that the world should change its point of rotation so that it revolves around them.
> 
> 
> 
> And minimally polite you've been indeed!
> 
> Your personal awarenes of two isolated cases of diabetics and their handling of this life threatening condition gives you authority enough to judge?
Click to expand...

Two examples of many, just for illustration purposes. So far as I am concerned, this conversation has ended.

GH


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## Lucifer

George Harris said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> We were not promised a trouble free existance. Life has problems. Deal with it.
> I do not believe that anybody's disease is supposed to give them a free pass for either stupid and irrational behavior or whiney mouthing off about how pathetic they are and that the world should change its point of rotation so that it revolves around them.
> 
> 
> 
> And minimally polite you've been indeed!
> 
> Your personal awarenes of two isolated cases of diabetics and their handling of this life threatening condition gives you authority enough to judge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two examples of many, just for illustration purposes. So far as I am concerned, this conversation has ended.
> 
> GH
Click to expand...

And minimally polite you remain.


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## had8ley

guest_AmtrakCrescent20 said:


> I guess this deserves a new topic: article from local news
> This article still seems to imply that Amtrak let the person off in the middle of the forest.......


I guess they would have preferred Beaumont, TX...???


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## had8ley

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> 
> And even if it was drunkeness that caused Mr Sims disorientation, he was disoriented none the less, and for whatever the reason should not have been "almost" handed over from one authority with first aid training to the police, generally even less educated medically, at a desolate stop in the forest.
> 
> 
> 
> So then what's the answer? Keep the man on board for another 7 hours until the train reaches Victorville CA. (the next major stop that's not out in the forest) at 4:00 AM? All the while trying to guard him and keep him from jumping off the train if he is disorientated. Or falling down the stairs and breaking his leg. Or worse, becoming violent and hurting another passenger. The conductors can't devote that kind of time to one person for any reason.
> 
> And if he was having sugar problems, waiting until Victorville would delay getting him treatment for 7 hours.
Click to expand...

Alan;

I had stayed out of this one as it was a no brainer no win situation. You hit the nail on the head with your reply. My only question about this whole affair is; why do these people unfold AFTER boarding. I've seen many drunks and psychos in my years on board but they seldom exhibit crazy behavior before boarding. My point being that perhaps Amtrak could weed out some of the people they wind up booting off before they get on. I realize the drunks usually don't start their tirade until they've had a few in the lounge car but some of the behavior by the general traveling public is outright crazy. Unfortunately, Amtrak does not hold the exclusive rights to obnoxious passengers. Just ask the airlines...


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