# New Dining Car Menus Nov. 4



## AmtrakLKL (Nov 3, 2015)

New national dining car menus go into effect tomorrow, November 4. They do not appear to be loaded on Amtrak.com, yet. My observations:

Breakfast


French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.
Lunch


Chipotle Black Bean Burger has been replaced with a Gardein Black Bean Burger
Panko Chicken has been replaced with Smokey BBQ Pork Shanks
Dinner


Vegetarian Stuffed Shells replaced with Six Cheese Lasagna
Light & Heathy Asian BBQ Chicken replaced with Bowl of Pad Thai Noodles or Black Bean Vegetable Enchiladas, both of which are vegan.
Salmon replaced with shrimp-crab cakes.
Prices appear to remain the same except the light & healthy dinner entree which was reduced $2.


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## keelhauled (Nov 3, 2015)

AmtrakLKL said:


> French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.


NOOOOO!!!!


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## yarrow (Nov 3, 2015)

at least, it appears, the tilapia as the dinner fish is gone


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 3, 2015)

AmtrakLKL said:


> French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.


Hopefully these aren't the same dry and tasteless microwave pancakes they served previously.



AmtrakLKL said:


> Chipotle Black Bean Burger has been replaced with a Gardein Black Bean Burger


One frozen hockey puck replaced with another frozen hockey puck?



AmtrakLKL said:


> Panko Chicken has been replaced with Smokey BBQ Pork Shanks


Fake liquid smoke shanks. Yum?



AmtrakLKL said:


> Vegetarian Stuffed Shells replaced with Six Cheese Lasagna


Might be worth a try.



AmtrakLKL said:


> Light & Heathy Asian BBQ Chicken replaced with Bowl of Pad Thai Noodles or Black Bean Vegetable Enchiladas, both of which are vegan.


Pad Thai and enchilada's are awesome when prepared fresh but they do not lend themselves to frozen commissary meals.



AmtrakLKL said:


> Salmon replaced with shrimp-crab cakes.


This might be worth a try as well.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 3, 2015)

Hate to sound cynical, but this sounds like that World Famous Chef John Mica might have had a hand in coming up with the New and Improved Menus.

The Crab Cakes used to be good to ex ellent depending on the train and the chef, but the past couple of years the Salmon has consistently been the Best thing served on the Dinner Menu in my expierence!

What in the world is Smokey BBQ Pork Shanks? Hope they're better than the Fake Ribs ( McRibs) that used to be served! Why not return to the Excellent Lamb Shanks that after a well cooked Steak was the best Dinner item on the Menu. (or even the lesser Turkey Shanks?)

I'm guessing that the pancakes will be McDonald quality. ( not a positive!)

The Chipotle Black Bean Burger was excellent when served as a "Cheater Burger", ie with Cheese and Bacon!

Guess time will tell, hopefully there will be Chefs and Diners on All ofthe LD Trains to prepare these Meals!


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 3, 2015)

Being someone who loves meat and regular eating but due to cancer treatments has had meat among other things cut out of my diet, I will miss the French Toast. The Chipotle burger had enough spices to be ok with lettuce and tomato, garden burger sounds like the spices have been removed. My grand-daughter who loves the train and travels with me frequently, loved the salmon (when not cooked to death). Six cheese lasagna sounds good, though if my wife was with me I would be having the black bean enchiladas (frozen sounds like a Tex-Mex TV dinner).


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Nov 3, 2015)

keelhauled said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.
> ...


No Railroad French Toast? In both directions? Oh, the humanity! :help:

*Traditional thick slices of egg batter dipped toast,*

griddled to a golden brown, dusted with powdered

sugar and served with syrup and fruit topping :wub:


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## AmtrakLKL (Nov 3, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.
> ...


Menu description says griddled to order. I hope that means fresh batter poured on the griddle vs. dropping a pre-made pancake to reheat.



Lonestar648 said:


> Being someone who loves meat and regular eating but due to cancer treatments has had meat among other things cut out of my diet, I will miss the French Toast. The Chipotle burger had enough spices to be ok with lettuce and tomato, garden burger sounds like the spices have been removed. My grand-daughter who loves the train and travels with me frequently, loved the salmon (when not cooked to death). Six cheese lasagna sounds good, though if my wife was with me I would be having the black bean enchiladas (frozen sounds like a Tex-Mex TV dinner).


It is still a spiced black bean and corn veggie burger. Gardein is the new brand being carried.

I noticed another change, the steak at dinner will now be accompanied with caramelized onions instead of a peppercorn sauce.


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## PVD (Nov 3, 2015)

My experience with the Gardenburger line has been decent, I have a box of their Chipotle and Black Bean in my freezer now. If prepared well, they aren't bad.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 3, 2015)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakLKL said:
> ...


To me the previous pancakes looked, felt, smelled, and tasted just like frozen microwave pancakes. But maybe they found a "fresh" batter that somehow forms a perfect replica of a microwave pancake? I remember a television show that followed a McDonalds sauce replacement trial where they consulted with multiple specialized vendors to find less expensive alternatives that tasted just like the original artificial sauces but with even cheaper fillers. It was quite amazing how much effort they went into to find just the right mixture of low grade byproducts and specially tailored artificial flavors. I was shocked that they allowed cameras and a narrator to film the process of how much effort they spend in giving us less value for the dollar.


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## KmH (Nov 3, 2015)

Fresh pancake batter?

Is pancake batter that gets put on the train as a dry mix that water is added to "fresh" pancake batter?

Heck the pancake batter may get put on the train in gallon jugs with the water already added to a dry mix at the commissary.

Inquiring minds want to know.

How much of the prep work is done by the commissary?

Someone said the bacon is partially pre-cooked at the commissary. Are some of the other foods also pre-cooked by the commissary?

This would be fresh pancake batter sufficient for several servings:

2 cups sifted all ­purpose flour

3 tsp. baking powder

1 tsp. salt

2 tbsp. sugar

1 egg

1 1/2 cups milk

3 tbsp. oil

I seriously doubt an Amtrak dining car kitchen is stocked with the ingredients needed to make 'fresh' pancake batter.

Or maybe it's my definition of what "fresh" means.


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## OBS (Nov 3, 2015)

There is no cooking done in any Amtrak Commissary.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 3, 2015)

OBS said:


> There is no cooking done in any Amtrak Commissary.


I suppose that means the precooked meals are prepared at the packing plant?


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## Palmetto (Nov 3, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > There is no cooking done in any Amtrak Commissary.
> ...


 No different from the airlines I'd guess. There are catering services for this sort of thing.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 3, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > OBS said:
> ...


The difference is that I don't travel on a single aircraft for days on end without access to other restaurants. Airline food may be terrible but it doesn't impact me in the same way because I can easily pick something up before boarding and again before my next connection. Where I live there are no other options anywhere near the train station and the trains depart in the early morning hours when nothing is open anyhow. In other words it's a huge difference that's not easy to mitigate.


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 3, 2015)

When I had a restaurant, we found a pancake batter that we just added water to and that our customers loved. Key was that we only made it up for a couple hours and kept it refrigerated. The batter jar had a lid with a handle that allowed for making perfect dollar or normal sized pancakes. The batter is key as well as how you keep the prepared batter once it has been made up. In the DC kitchen, making up a jar or two of batter at 6:30 AM for use for a couple hours makes sense, though I would suspect they will make it up about 6:00 AM with enough to cover the entire breakfast service, thus what is made at the end may or may not be the same quality as the beginning.


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## Train2104 (Nov 3, 2015)

KmH said:


> This would be fresh pancake batter sufficient for several servings:
> 
> 2 cups sifted all ­purpose flour
> 
> ...


The first few ingredients listed are all dry things that they can pre-measure and pre-mix.

Eggs and milk and oil are already available for the other things that they serve.

I can't imagine combining them to a batter and putting it on a griddle to require anything that making omelets wouldn't require...though there's the condemnation problem if you make a bunch of servings and only a couple people order the pancakes.


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## niemi24s (Nov 3, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Where I live there are no other options anywhere near the train station. . .


That's too bad. I'm blessed.with lots and _lots_ of options cuz it's a six hour drive to the closest station.

But I'm sad to see that salmon is off the menu as it was usually good.- except one time when it was all dried out. If the pancakes aren't great, the real maple syrup I always carry when traveling will make them that way. And as long as the Hebrew National hot dog is still on the kid's menu the change in the ersatz hamburger (_hamburger_?) won't matter.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 3, 2015)

Well Chris, there's always Dennys on East Commerce where all the elite eat!


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## tommylicious (Nov 3, 2015)

French toast gone???? Ridiculous.


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## Palmetto (Nov 3, 2015)

Well, the French toast I had on 98 on one trip was pretty bad. The bread seemed stale, and it was tough. Go figure.


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## Yumacool (Nov 3, 2015)

My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.

Unadulterated fish always made for a great past option and I wish they would bring it back. She already can't eat most things on the menu ...


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## TylerP42 (Nov 3, 2015)

darn it. Salmon is gone? not good for someone with shellfish and wheat allergies.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 3, 2015)

Wonder if the crab-shrimp cakes will also contain Garlic? One of our members ( Hi Penny!) always liked the Salmon because it didn't have any Garlic!


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## Eric308 (Nov 3, 2015)

Yumacool said:


> My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.
> 
> Unadulterated fish always made for a great past option and I wish they would bring it back. She already can't eat most things on the menu ...


Just be aware that the majority of tilapia we get in the US is farm raised in China and their primary diet is feces.


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## BCL (Nov 3, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> Yumacool said:
> 
> 
> > My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.
> ...


Kind of an overstatement. Tilapia is farmed in the US and Canada. In China there have been farms feeding the fish animal waste (they can survive on almost anything) to save money, but it's not always the case.


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## blondninja (Nov 3, 2015)

Yumacool, you know you can call Amtrak after you book with your wife's specific dietary restrictions? Tell them she's gluten free and apparently they'll accommodate her.


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## Triley (Nov 3, 2015)

blondninja said:


> Yumacool, you know you can call Amtrak after you book with your wife's specific dietary restrictions? Tell them she's gluten free and apparently they'll accommodate her.


Regarding this, here is what is posted on the website about: Low Fat, Low Cholesterol, Low Sodium, Gluten Free, Wheat Free, Peanut Free Meals

"Amtrak does not offer meals specifically designated as low fat, low cholesterol, low sodium, gluten free, wheat free or peanut free. Most dinner entrees are not prepared on the dining car. The fat, cholesterol, sodium, gluten, wheat and peanut content may vary, and cannot be controlled or modified by the chef.

Certain menu items are inherently low in fat, cholesterol and/or sodium and may be ordered from the regular menu. The dining car waiter or lead service attendant can provide guidance."


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## A Voice (Nov 3, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> Yumacool said:
> 
> 
> > My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.
> ...


I suspect most of us would find the (animal) diets of our steaks, hamburgers, and bacon also pretty revolting (perhaps not to the same degree), but that doesn't stop us enjoying them, and I have the waistline to prove it.


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## Eric308 (Nov 3, 2015)

A Voice said:


> Eric308 said:
> 
> 
> > Yumacool said:
> ...


I just think that there are so many more WILD sourced fish that are better for you. I don't eat any farm raised fish.

http://simpleorganiclife.org/never-eat-tilapia/


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## tonys96 (Nov 3, 2015)

French Toast has been replaced with Buttermilk Pancakes.

Noooo.....what a revolting turn of events.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 3, 2015)

I wish they'd bring back Blackened Catfish; I had that on the _*Sunset *_many years ago and is was very good!


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## D.P. Roberts (Nov 3, 2015)

Since the menus change every six months, one can only hope that the French Toast will be back in May.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 3, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> Well Chris, there's always Dennys on East Commerce where all the elite eat!


The last time I tried to order Denny's to go they taped two plastic plates together and pretended it was some sort of new age travel container. No thanks.



Eric308 said:


> Just be aware that the majority of tilapia we get in the US is farm raised in China and their primary diet is feces.


I'm not sure if I'm more disgusted by the feces or being sourced in China. Same difference?


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## niemi24s (Nov 3, 2015)

City slicker food purists never cease to amaze me. This yokel lives on nice clear 100+ acre Northern inland lake and occasionally amuses himself by watching fish follow ducks around for a warm meal.


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## Sauve850 (Nov 3, 2015)

I always enjoy breakfast while on the train. French toast will be missed but maybe pancakes will be good. If they are hot and you put enough syrup on them they will be fine!


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## blondninja (Nov 3, 2015)

Triley, I was told of you call it in Advance they will have a special options you can choose and they'll bring it on board and you notify your car attendant when you board.


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## TinCan782 (Nov 3, 2015)

I'm glad the tilapia was replaced with the salmon (which was pretty good) but now shrimp-crab cakes?

BTW, last summer, I had the salmon two different ways...same salmon but the presentation and sides were different...both good.


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## BCL (Nov 3, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Well Chris, there's always Dennys on East Commerce where all the elite eat!
> ...


I actually got the same from Amtrak. Well - actually foil on top of one of the plastic plates.

As for Tilapia, well yeah it can survive on a wide variety of organic materials. One nickname is "sewer fish". It's not a great idea to feed them manure, but apparently it's just part of the diet at some farms. If a fish eating feces worries you, then avoid catfish. They're bottom feeders, and guess what's at the bottom of the lake? The biggest worry should be about the condition of the farm. The worst ones concentrate way too many fish in small pens.

Heck - I eat oysters, which are filter feeders. The local oyster farms are located in areas with cattle runoff, and it's actually a nutrient. I know it sounds gross, but that's a cultural reaction because we're taught that fecal matter is gross.


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## acelafan (Nov 3, 2015)

Hate to sound cynical, but this sounds like that World Famous Chef John Mica might have had a hand in coming up with the New and Improved Menus.


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 3, 2015)

Triley said:


> "Amtrak does not offer meals specifically designated as low fat, low cholesterol, low sodium, gluten free, wheat free or peanut free.* Most dinner entrees are not prepared on the dining car.*


What a shame. I used to stalk certain trains years ago because I knew the chef created great meals.


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## JayPea (Nov 4, 2015)

i am disappointed to see the salmon go away. I love salmon and have never had a bad salmon dinner on Amtrak. I will now have to choose something else. Drat! I hate having to be flexible!!! :angry:


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## jnismith (Nov 4, 2015)

Out of about 8 meals this year on trains (CZ, Cardinal), the French Toast was the only thing that tasted fresh and that I really enjoyed. I remember (in the UK), a full English breakfast cooked to order - now that is long gone. If the food on the trains becomes total pre-packaged, then I will be long-gone as well.


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## dlagrua (Nov 4, 2015)

The great plan to ficticious dining car profitability continues. Then what happens when it is discovered that dining cars in their entire history were never profitable and can never be made profitable?


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## Triley (Nov 4, 2015)

dlagrua said:


> The great plan to ficticious dining car profitability continues. Then what happens when it is discovered that dining cars in their entire history were never profitable and can never be made profitable?


Is that what you think this menu change is about?

The menu changes across the company, including Acela First Class and Cafe cars frequently to try to bring a little variety in choices to those people who ride more than a handful of times a year. (I'm extra board and work just about everything in or out of Boston, and there are certain trains that I already expect certain passengers to be on, because they're so frequent."")


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## jis (Nov 4, 2015)

JayPea said:


> i am disappointed to see the salmon go away. I love salmon and have never had a bad salmon dinner on Amtrak. I will now have to choose something else. Drat! I hate having to be flexible!!! :angry:


If they keep going at this rate, soon the Pepperoni pizza from the Cafe will start appearing like the most attractive fare on the train   Juuuuust kidding.

Too bad the Salmon is going away. I guess the crab cake it will be. but I have no trips planned until the OTOL Fest next year. So the menu will probably change a few more times by then. The again maybe I will take a trip on the Star to celebrate re-introduction of the Diner to it come February. Nothing will happen before then anyway as far as LD train travel in the US for me goes.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 4, 2015)

Triley said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > The great plan to ficticious dining car profitability continues. Then what happens when it is discovered that dining cars in their entire history were never profitable and can never be made profitable?
> ...


After watching most long distance trains merged into a single generic nationwide menu, with fewer selections than any one train previously offered, this post sounds laughably naive.


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## Ryan (Nov 4, 2015)

So because Amtrak did one thing that reduced variability (which sucks), they can't to anything to try and maintain the last vestiges of it?


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 4, 2015)

Ryan said:


> So because Amtrak did one thing that reduced variability (which sucks), they can't to anything to try and maintain the last vestiges of it?


One thing?

01. Replaced the actual chef inspired meals with commissary chow

02. Substantially reduced the number of menu options

03. Merged all regional menus in a single generic national menu

04. Removed diner from this train, cook from that train, etc.

05. Removed some post-terminal and pre-terminal meal services

06. Introduced even more limited menus for "special circumstances"

07. Removed juice cocktails for mixed drinks and the like

08. Began rationing water, ice, coffee, and lettuce

09. Raised prices on nearly everything that remained

10. Removed the last vestiges of premium service routes


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 4, 2015)

I have had the Crab Cakes before, even a couple times when they rotated onto the Breakfast Menu, and they were good.


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## jis (Nov 4, 2015)

So far I have not faced any rationing of water, ice, juice or coffee. but I may just have been lucky to have SCAs that simply ignored the latest brainless policies.


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## TylerP42 (Nov 4, 2015)

The Cap from DC only gets about 10 pizzas, 3 out of the (10?) cafe items and about 10 of each, one case of Pepsi and one case of diet Pepsi for its Cafe car. I went down to the cafe car about 3 hrs after departure and he was almost out of everything, and informed me they would not be restocking.


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## BCL (Nov 4, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I have had the Crab Cakes before, even a couple times when they rotated onto the Breakfast Menu, and they were good.


I had them as a breakfast special once. Pretty good. However, back then beverages were included.


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## Palmetto (Nov 4, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> Yumacool said:
> 
> 
> > My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.
> ...


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## Palmetto (Nov 4, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


Not naïve for the Northeast Corridor. There is much more of a need there to rotate menus because businessmen actually ride certain trains in large numbers, and regularly.


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## SP&S (Nov 4, 2015)

BCL said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > I have had the Crab Cakes before, even a couple times when they rotated onto the Breakfast Menu, and they were good.
> ...


Yes indeed! I have had them for dinner and as a breakfast special. I've been waiting for them to come back ever since. If the new ones are anyway near the quality of the old ones, it will be a treat.


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## neroden (Nov 4, 2015)

Yumacool said:


> My wife has to be gluten free and the salmon or tilapia were always excellent choices. Crab cakes, while I enjoy them, are not a good option for her, as crab cakes contain breading. Breading means wheat, which is a no go.
> 
> Unadulterated fish always made for a great past option and I wish they would bring it back. She already can't eat most things on the menu ...


Sympathies. Because Amtrak can't even tell me what the food ingredients are (something which 99% of restaurants can do), I can't eat anything except the most obvious -- plain fish, plain meat, plain eggs, plain vegetables.

One more move to make it *impossible* for customers to eat in the diner.


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## neroden (Nov 4, 2015)

jis said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> > i am disappointed to see the salmon go away. I love salmon and have never had a bad salmon dinner on Amtrak. I will now have to choose something else. Drat! I hate having to be flexible!!! :angry:
> ...


The cafe food is already usually better than the dining car food. Which is completely ridiculous.

For one thing, it has an ingredients list.

Unfortunately, I can't get a balanced diet off the national-menu cafe. On the Acela, NE Regional, Downeaster, Surfliner, and Empire Service, I pretty much can.


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## neroden (Nov 4, 2015)

TylerP42 said:


> The Cap from DC only gets about 10 pizzas, 3 out of the (10?) cafe items and about 10 of each, one case of Pepsi and one case of diet Pepsi for its Cafe car. I went down to the cafe car about 3 hrs after departure and he was almost out of everything, and informed me they would not be restocking.


Looks like the only way to travel Amtrak is to carry your own case of food.

Since food is a medical disability-accomodation requirement for many (most?) people, it is exempt by federal law from the luggage limits. That's going to give Amtrak some fun headaches.


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## neroden (Nov 4, 2015)

blondninja said:


> Triley, I was told of you call it in Advance they will have a special options you can choose and they'll bring it on board and you notify your car attendant when you board.


Well they won't do it if your food sensitivity is at all unusual. The sole allowance I got from Amtrak is that my bag of food is noted on my tickets as being a disability accomodation and not subject to luggage limits. Which is really the legal minimum they can do.


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## Palmetto (Nov 4, 2015)

Well, it's near the end of the work day, and the May 2015 menus are still posted. When are the new ones actually going online?


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## Triley (Nov 4, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Well, it's near the end of the work day, and the May 2015 menus are still posted. When are the new ones actually going online?


The Regional menus posted are two years old, and are three revisions old. Sooo...


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 4, 2015)

For years the menus have been changed. The fish has been Salmon, blackened Cat Fish, Tilapia, Cod, Halibut, so they were trying to keep some variety, true in some cases it didn't work. Unfortunately, the never to be profitable food service operation, keeps getting streamlined with the unrealistic idea it can ever be profitable. By having the same menu across the nation, Amtrak try's to pacify those in Congress who would like to see Amtrak passengers forced from LD trains due to starvation (traveling from LAX on TE connecting to CL with no food service like some in Congress would have it would be impossible, thus satisfying grins on those in Congress.

Variety between trains is needed, just real food attracting more people to use the DC therefore increased revenue (didn't say profit, though increased revenue could somewhat reduce some of the losses). The old adage "you have to spend money to make money" is still true, even though many, many people try to go cheap and ultimately fail.


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## peconicstation (Nov 4, 2015)

Although as I type this the new menus are not posted per se, you can find the info about the revised menu items on the food facts site.

It is very worth noting that there are now 2 distinct dinner 'specials", a pork shank, and a salsbury steak.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/

Ken


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## keelhauled (Nov 4, 2015)

Changes to the Cardinal menu, as well. And at least some of the Acela options are new also. Plus the PPC menu is up on the food facts site. Rather interesting.


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## JayPea (Nov 5, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> Although as I type this the new menus are not posted per se, you can find the info about the revised menu items on the food facts site.
> 
> It is very worth noting that there are now 2 distinct dinner 'specials", a pork shank, and a salsbury steak.
> 
> ...


The salisbury steak special looks pretty good. I will have to give it a try the next chance I get, which will be in March. Provided the menus haven't changed between now and then.


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## Shanghai (Nov 5, 2015)

*If no food is prepared on the train, why is there a Chef on board?*

*What does the Chef do?*


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## andersone (Nov 5, 2015)

The Chef operates the Micahwave


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't think the position is Chef any longer, rather cook (someone who follows procedures outlined by the Chef). Also, when the Cook was taken off the TE 21 and put on 22 this summer in FTW, one of the attendants got switched to the kitchen to make up dinner for those of us using the DC south of FTW.


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## JoeBas (Nov 5, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > So because Amtrak did one thing that reduced variability (which sucks), they can't to anything to try and maintain the last vestiges of it?
> ...


You forgot the flowers. *gasp*


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## willem (Nov 5, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > After watching most long distance trains merged into a single generic nationwide menu, with fewer selections than any one train previously offered, this post sounds laughably naive.
> ...


Wait, what? Someone who rides for days on long distance trains needs no variation, but NEC riders who could eat before boarding or after disembarking need to switch things up?

"Variation" sounds like a good reason to bring back the individual route menus.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Nov 5, 2015)

I have always taken "variation" to be ordering something different from the same menu.

I mean, most fixed location restaurants, have the same menu, day-in and day-out. I get the variation I seek, by ordering different entrées each time I go there. I mean, I don't wait to go back, until they have a fully new menu.


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## seat38a (Nov 5, 2015)

I wish they would bring back the plain cheesecakes and then add whatever flavor on top. Had the current iteration of the cheesecake and was not too thrilled with it.


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## seat38a (Nov 5, 2015)

Looks like the Cardinal has the "Greek Yogurt Cheesecake." Now throw some fruit topping on that and it would be perfect.


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## D.P. Roberts (Nov 6, 2015)

1. Speaking of "variation", there's even less of it on the new menu than there used to be. On the old menu, the chicken special for lunch was a unique item. Now, the special is just a smaller portion of the Pork Shanks they're serving at dinner.

2. How many of Amtrak's meals are now just frozen dinners? Amtrakfoodfacts indicates that the new enchiladas are just Amy's frozen. They cost under $4 at Walmart or Target. I wonder how much Amtrak will charge for those.

3. I do like how some of the new breakfast specials are named after the onboard crew, like "The Conductor" or "The Engineer." I have a suggestion for a new entree called "The Bad Sleeping Car Attendant". For this entree, your server will describe all the various options available to you, going over everything in great detail and promising to be there for all your needs. After placing your order, your server will then disappear, never to be seen or heard again...


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## jebr (Nov 6, 2015)

Seeing the salisbury steak on the menu actually makes me slightly hopeful that they'll roll out the coach seat-side meal service on more long distance trains soon. The salisbury steak is the entree choice for supper with that menu. I'm taking coach next month on the Builder back home, and having that option for $12 for supper would be an almost-guarantee that I'll eat on the train (otherwise I might just stop at a grocery store or something and grab a sandwich for the road.)


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## Palmetto (Nov 6, 2015)

willem said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


I didn't mean to imply variation is not needed for long distance trains. On the contrary: I agree that individual route menus would be a good thing to bring back again for those doing a multi-day trip.


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## Lonestar648 (Nov 6, 2015)

No matter which menu is used, if you are on a LD return run back to the commissary, the DC and Café are stocked so lean, the selection this summer was down to one or two items in the DC for breakfast and lunch, then on 21 when the train was over 6 hours late, Dinner was a plate of vegetables, rice, and a salad. The menus can make the meals look good, butif the selections are gone, it doesn't mean anything.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 6, 2015)

jebr said:


> Seeing the salisbury steak on the menu actually makes me slightly hopeful that they'll roll out the coach seat-side meal service on more long distance trains soon. The salisbury steak is the entree choice for supper with that menu. I'm taking coach next month on the Builder back home, and having that option for $12 for supper would be an almost-guarantee that I'll eat on the train (otherwise I might just stop at a grocery store or something and grab a sandwich for the road.)


It was offered as a Dinner Special on the 22 _*Eagle *_last August and sounded tempting, though I ended up taking on the regular Steak, despite already being too overfed from 4 days of Diner Chow  Another person at the table ordered it and it looked good and he said it was good.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 6, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Seeing the salisbury steak on the menu actually makes me slightly hopeful that they'll roll out the coach seat-side meal service on more long distance trains soon. The salisbury steak is the entree choice for supper with that menu. I'm taking coach next month on the Builder back home, and having that option for $12 for supper would be an almost-guarantee that I'll eat on the train (otherwise I might just stop at a grocery store or something and grab a sandwich for the road.)
> ...


I saw three at seat specials on the SWC: Bacon/Egg/Cheese Breakfast Sandwich, BLT, Salisbury Steak. They put a flyer at your seat but they don't do as good a job announcing it as they do the regular diner service. I was tempted by the salisbury steak at the $12 but missed them collecting orders. I'm guessing I was in the lounge car. They should announce it in the lounge car. It would be easier to bring the food there than the seats.


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## keelhauled (Nov 6, 2015)

That's interesting, and encouraging. Originally, as I recall, it was a Coast Starlight-exclusive trial, seems it was successful enough to expand.


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## neroden (Nov 6, 2015)

Heck, some of these might be OK if the ingredients list was available. And for my fiancee, if dairy-free was possible (there's dairy in way too many things).


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## Davids (Nov 26, 2015)

This is the new pork shanks. It's pretty good but it's a little bit too sweet to my taste.


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## TylerP42 (Nov 26, 2015)

David, I can't tell, are they breaded?


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## HARHBG (Nov 26, 2015)

Just eturning to Harrisburg from Seattle. Pork Shanks were surprizingly quite good. Shrimp/Crab cakes I found edible, but that's it. Salisbury Steak looked, to me, like meatloaf. Woman across from me said she liked it and it seemed popular as they sold out before end of dinner first day out on Empire Builder.

Another woman had the Asian thing and said it was edible but could be so much more.

Pancakes for breakfast were actually good. I really liked the French Toast but the pancakes are a nice change.

Some sort of Chocolate Mousse thing. Filling okay but the "crust" is nasty. Has the texture of rubber. I ate the filling part and left the rest of it.

Day 3 Capitol Limited. Dining personel don't ask if you want a salad anymore. I was last one ordering at my table of 4 and asked for a salad then told everyone at the table a salad is part of the meal but you have to ask for it. Of course, the other 3 people also now want salads. "Miss Thing", the waiter was just livid! HA!! He really was PO'ed at me for "announcing" the salad "option". Just did her/his best spin-pirouette-whirl around and stomped away, returning with the salads and near throwing them down on the table. Everyone at my table, one couple and a single woman were first-time Sleeper Car/Amtrak riders so I enjoyed "educating" them and we all got a good laugh out of Miss Thing's "performance"..............


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## Davids (Nov 26, 2015)

TylerP42 said:


> David, I can't tell, are they breaded?


 No, they are not breaded


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## yarrow (Nov 26, 2015)

HARHBG said:


> Day 3 Capitol Limited. Dining personel don't ask if you want a salad anymore. I was last one ordering at my table of 4 and asked for a salad then told everyone at the table a salad is part of the meal but you have to ask for it. Of course, the other 3 people also now want salads. "Miss Thing", the waiter was just livid! HA!! He really was PO'ed at me for "announcing" the salad "option". Just did her/his best spin-pirouette-whirl around and stomped away, returning with the salads and near throwing them down on the table. Everyone at my table, one couple and a single woman were first-time Sleeper Car/Amtrak riders so I enjoyed "educating" them and we all got a good laugh out of Miss Thing's "performance"..............


i don't understand the salad. it's supposed to be available for lunch and dinner. have never had the server offer it for lunch. when i have asked i sometimes have received it and sometimes been told they only have enough for dinner. about half the time for dinner we have been asked did we want salad and half time not though when asked have received one at dinner


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## niemi24s (Nov 26, 2015)

HARHBG said:


> Dining personel don't ask if you want a salad anymore.


Nothing is absolute. Some do, some don't. And I suspect some don't in an effort to reduce the mess that some diners, like me, can make with their salads. I find the lightness of the plastic salad bowls can contribute to the launching of salad ingredients if the rim is accidentally bumped - especially when sawing though one of those little rock-hard tomatoes. Wife says I remind her of the Pig Pen character in the Charlie Brown cartoons.


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## TylerP42 (Nov 26, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> HARHBG said:
> 
> 
> > Dining personel don't ask if you want a salad anymore.
> ...


I got a good laugh at this post. I love the visual that goes along with this post.


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## Davids (Nov 26, 2015)

And here is the picture of crab cakes dinner.


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## HenryK (Nov 27, 2015)

For what it's worth, I took the Capitol Limited to Washington a couple of weeks ago, and at dinner the server asked if I wanted a salad. That was a good diner crew.


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## OBS (Nov 27, 2015)

Henry, what happened? fall asleep at computer?

FWIW, as I recall, the salad is to be served UPON REQUEST only...not "offered" by server... Per Amtrak F&B directions...


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## TylerP42 (Nov 27, 2015)

OBS said:


> Henry, what happened? fall asleep at computer?
> 
> FWIW, as I recall, the salad is to be served UPON REQUEST only...not "offered" by server... Per Amtrak F&B directions...


That may be the case but I was offered a salad on the Capitol Limited on Sunday.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 27, 2015)

Davids said:


> This is the new pork shanks. It's pretty good but it's a little bit too sweet to my taste.


 Can you confirm if those are powdered potatoes?



Davids said:


> And here is the picture of crab cakes dinner.


Can you confirm if those are frozen veggies?



OBS said:


> Henry, what happened? fall asleep at computer? FWIW, as I recall, the salad is to be served UPON REQUEST only...not "offered" by server... Per Amtrak F&B directions...


 Yeah, why offer to serve a perishable product when you can simply hold it back and use it again next trip. Oh, wait...


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## TinCan782 (Nov 27, 2015)

What am I missing here? Spot checking menus on Amtrak.com, the menus (PDFs) I see are all coded "0515", the CONO is "0715".

The menu items themselves are the same as I experienced last August on the TE, CL and SWC.

Have they not updated the website?


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 27, 2015)

OBS said:


> Henry, what happened? fall asleep at computer?
> 
> FWIW, as I recall, the salad is to be served UPON REQUEST only...not "offered" by server... Per Amtrak F&B directions...


I've been on several trains this year, and I would say the majority of the time the server has asked about salads. For what it's worth, when table mates have asked for side salad at lunch it was served no problem, except for one time when the waiter very apologetically, said they didn't have any left. (Last day of a trip on the zephyr).

Side salad is pretty obvious on the menu, I don't think the waiters really need to point it out to people, I don't mind either way.

Sounds like you had a less than stellar crew, I rode the Capitol in October and had one of the best dining car crews I've ever had on any train. Seriously I would rate them higher than VIA rail and Pullman Rail, they were that excellent. I was surprised... They must be new. Ha!


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## Montreal Ltd (Nov 27, 2015)

Maybe the salads were offered on the CL because of the short trip. One breakfast and one dinner each way. Less likely to run out.


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## yarrow (Nov 27, 2015)

OBS said:


> FWIW, as I recall, the salad is to be served UPON REQUEST only...not "offered" by server... Per Amtrak F&B directions...


so soon perhaps knife and fork or napkin or whatever will be served "on request". brilliant administrative move. too bad there is no one left at amtrak to say "enough of this bs"


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## Davids (Nov 27, 2015)

Devil said:


> Davids said:
> 
> 
> > This is the new pork shanks. It's pretty good but it's a little bit too sweet to my taste.
> ...


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 27, 2015)

Davids said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Davids said:
> ...


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 27, 2015)

I'm not personally a vegetarian, and probably never will be, but I was raised to appreciate and even enjoy vegetables as part of my upbringing. As an adult I've also learned that the easiest and most positive impact you can choose both for your body and for the planet is to eat less meat. It's unfortunate that Amtrak continues to treat vegetables as a distant afterthought rather than a core ingredient that greatly benefits from fresh sourcing and quality preparation. This isn't the 1940's anymore. There is no need to rely on boxed, canned, or frozen vegetables. We are quickly approaching 2016 and these days even generic hotel chains and dowdy old airports like London's much maligned Heathrow are stocking freshly prepared healthy selections packaged and ready for you to pickup and take on the next leg of your journey.

Meanwhile the freshness and nutritional content of Amtrak's food continues to struggle to match convenience store standards in developing countries. If Boardman is in genuine agreement with the likes of Mica and Shuster, that the food and beverage service needs to break even or better in five (four?) years or less, then the the least he can do is start selling nutritious and freshly prepared foods in major stations along the way. How often do you think Boardman eats this low nutrition, highly caloric, and heavily processed food? How about John Mica or Bill Shuster? I don't expect the kind of five star dining they're more accustomed to, but I do expect an acknowledgement that they're falling further and further behind in a world that is rapidly becoming more and more aware of where our food comes from, how it's processed, and how much harm it can do if we don't take our choices seriously. It would also seem to be good business sense to offer something genuinely fresh and tasty.


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## johnm (Nov 27, 2015)

Rode the Chief from Los Angeles to Chicago this week. We had no issue in the diner, salads upon request at lunch, Sam Sullivan and his crew in the diner did an excellent job, kept us fed and happy. And by gosh, they let folks sit side by side!

With the exception of the final crew leg into Chicago, the train crew honored the hat off passing through the diner, some traditions still continue.

john


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 27, 2015)

I'll be honest I prefer the pancakes to the French toast. And I always have. Maybe because that used to be breakfast from my dad every Sunday morning. And the Amtrak ones were better then his. But the atmosphere helped those


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## Palmetto (Nov 28, 2015)

Has anybody had the bacon recently? I always find it just a tad too crisp. Some people love it that way, though.


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## Palmland (Nov 28, 2015)

On our recent western trip we skipped dinner out of LA on the SWC and out of Chicago on the City of New Orleans. We knew we had many meals to on the train and didn't want to overload. The dinner we picked up at the new market in LAX (dinner salad and an hors d'oeurve tray) was outstanding. Ok, we tried the new bakery there too for desert - so good. Too many good restaurants in Chicago to eat the abbreivated CONO dinner.

But, on a positive note, the continental breakfast and chicken salad at lunch on the CONO were quite good. We had to save our selves for the wonderous food in New Orleans!


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## neroden (Nov 28, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not personally a vegetarian, and probably never will be, but I was raised to appreciate and even enjoy vegetables as part of my upbringing. As an adult I've also learned that the easiest and most positive impact you can choose both for your body and for the planet is to eat less meat. It's unfortunate that Amtrak continues to treat vegetables as a distant afterthought rather than a core ingredient that greatly benefits from fresh sourcing and quality preparation. This isn't the 1940's anymore. There is no need to rely on boxed, canned, or frozen vegetables. We are quickly approaching 2016 and these days even generic hotel chains and dowdy old airports like London's much maligned Heathrow are stocking freshly prepared healthy selections packaged and ready for you to pickup and take on the next leg of your journey.
> 
> Meanwhile the freshness and nutritional content of Amtrak's food continues to struggle to match convenience store standards in developing countries. If Boardman is in genuine agreement with the likes of Mica and Shuster, that the food and beverage service needs to break even or better in five (four?) years or less, then the the least he can do is start selling nutritious and freshly prepared foods in major stations along the way. How often do you think Boardman eats this low nutrition, highly caloric, and heavily processed food? How about John Mica or Bill Shuster? I don't expect the kind of five star dining they're more accustomed to, but I do expect an acknowledgement that they're falling further and further behind in a world that is rapidly becoming more and more aware of where our food comes from, how it's processed, and how much harm it can do if we don't take our choices seriously. It would also seem to be good business sense to offer something genuinely fresh and tasty.


100% agreed. Basic greens are a core component of any balanced, healthy diet, and the US government has been telling us this since the 1930s (with the Four Basic Food Groups) and much more so since the 1980s (with the Food Pyramid). Amtrak needs to make veggies readily available. Not having a salad is deeply unacceptable.

I raised holy hell about this on a trip last year when the servers refused to let me buy a salad (apparently salads were understocked and they were "saving" them for sleeper passengers, but fergodssake if someone is specifically trying to order and pay for a salad... I even pointed out that I needed it for medical reasons on my doctor's advice...). One of the other diners at my table gave me her salad. The servers did not get a tip from anyone at our table, because their behavior was grossly unacceptable. I also reported it to Customer Relations.


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## TylerP42 (Nov 28, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Has anybody had the bacon recently? I always find it just a tad too crisp. Some people love it that way, though.


Agreed. I hate super crispy bacon, but that's just my preference


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## MikefromCrete (Nov 28, 2015)

TylerP42 said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Has anybody had the bacon recently? I always find it just a tad too crisp. Some people love it that way, though.
> ...


What! There are people who don't like crispy bacon! That sounds un-American to me. I demand an investigation! (Before everyone gets all tipped off, I'm just being sarcastic _- and a I love crispy bacon, the crispier the better!)


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## Davids (Nov 28, 2015)

Here is the picture of chicken pad Thai dinner light


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## TylerP42 (Nov 28, 2015)

Curios if that is rice pasta or if it has wheat...


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 28, 2015)

Looks like a Ramen meal that college students live on! No thanks!


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## BCL (Nov 28, 2015)

TylerP42 said:


> Curios if that is rice pasta or if it has wheat...


Pad Thai is rice noodle. Typically dry rice noodle that has to be soaked before frying. It typically would have peanuts, but the photo doesn't show any.



Bob Dylan said:


> Looks like a Ramen meal that college students live on! No thanks!



Never had real ramen? Good ramen is amazing - especially with the right broth. Instant or dry is cheap and meant to be. That being said, many Asian cultures love instant noodles because it's comfort food.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 29, 2015)

One thing I'm noticing which makes no sense to me is the Express Menu. What train is that on. I've never heard of it


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## johnm (Nov 29, 2015)

Tonight i left Chicago and headed back to Socal on American Airlines. You know, even with the plastic plates and all the other gripes folks have.... I still prefer Amtrak dinners in the diner over this first class dinner on the plane....did i have an enjoyable conversation with any the passengers other than my lovely wife?.


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## JayPea (Nov 29, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


Same here! I love crispy bacon. I don't want the bacon still oinking at me when I try to eat it! :lol:


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 29, 2015)

johnm said:


> Tonight i left Chicago and headed back to Socal on American Airlines. You know, even with the plastic plates and all the other gripes folks have.... I still prefer Amtrak dinners in the diner over this first class dinner on the plane....did i have an enjoyable conversation with any the passengers other than my lovely wife?.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is what a Coach Meal looked like back before Deregulation. And even if you were flying shorter haul, say from OKC-ORD during Meal time, you likely would have been served. But I fully agree I'll take an Amtrak Diner Meal any day.


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## GaSteve (Nov 29, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> One thing I'm noticing which makes no sense to me is the Express Menu. What train is that on. I've never heard of it


One place I know of is the #19 Crescent southbound into NOL. They serve the Express Menu so the crew will have time to get the car ready for a 7:30 PM arrival. There is usually one seating at 5:00 PM.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 29, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> One thing I'm noticing which makes no sense to me is the Express Menu. What train is that on. I've never heard of it


You also have an Express Menu ( "Limited )on #4 for Dinner out of LAX, on #30 for "Brunch" out of PGH, #22 for Lunch out of SPI and on the "No Chef" Trains,the Cardinal #50/#51 and the CONO #58/#59.

Since I don't ride LD as much anymore, I'm sure there are others also!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Nov 30, 2015)

Does the Silver Meteor have the new menu? I will be traveling on it soon and like to plan ahead so as not to hold up the servers or the other people at my table. (I don't want to look over all the choices online and then find it's the old menu and have to decide quickly.)


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 30, 2015)

Actual Pad Thai looks more like this...






I’ve never once seen anything on Amtrak that looks anything like that. Sometimes it's better to aim low and succeed than to aim high and fail miserably. Nonetheless thanks for the actual images as prepared on Amtrak. It's always best to know in advance what's waiting for you.



BCL said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like a Ramen meal that college students live on! No thanks!
> ...


Freshly prepared ramen is indeed very tasty. I had some in Japan yesterday. I’m not sure when or if Amtrak ever prepared a made-from-scratch soup on board a train. All I know is that I’ve never seen such a thing in all my years of traveling on Amtrak.



Seaboard92 said:


> One thing I'm noticing which makes no sense to me is the Express Menu. What train is that on. I've never heard of it


I believe the Express Menu is technically possible on any long distance train and which menu you receive appears to be based on the whims of the dining crew. I've even had them hand me the regular menu and then take that one out of my hands and replace it with the Express Menu without explanation.


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## pennyk (Nov 30, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Does the Silver Meteor have the new menu? I will be traveling on it soon and like to plan ahead so as not to hold up the servers or the other people at my table. (I don't want to look over all the choices online and then find it's the old menu and have to decide quickly.)


I believe the Silver Meteor does have the new menu. Shanghai traveled on the Meteor last week and I believe he mentioned the new menu.


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## rrdude (Nov 30, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> Looks like a Ramen meal that college students live on! No thanks!


That would be an IMPROVEMENT over what some crews push outa the diner kitchen. So sad, beautiful equipment, so VASTLY underutilized. A full size kitchen, with enough cooking, prep, and storage space to make any dinner train operator salivate uncontrollably. Toasters? Oh, long, long, long, gone. Eggs cooked to order? Bye-bye long time ago..........

Those who mock the "Slippery Slope" argument, when "minor ammenities" (flowers, coffee all-day) are lost, take note.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Nov 30, 2015)

Thanks, Penny, for the information on the Meteor.

I have looked over the menu, and the chocolate tart is a definite yes and the noodle dish is a definite no. Probably will just stick with the tried-and-true (whatever of those dishes are left).


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## PaulM (Nov 30, 2015)

I've had the express lunch on the eastbound CZ when it was 3+ hours late and no excuse whatsoever. I submitted a QA report regarding the rogue operation and received a suitable stipend for my service.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 30, 2015)

Last Summer on either the_* Meteor*_ or _*Lake Shore*_ (I cannot recall off hand) the Chef would periodically stand where he could look over the Dining Room and as I prepared to cut into my Steak, I managed to catch his eye. He watched with anticipation and after the first bite, I gave a SOLID Thumbs Up and he smiled and replied with the same. Now that is service!


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## willem (Dec 1, 2015)

That is service in both directions!


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## fillyjonk (Dec 1, 2015)

I had the pancakes coming back after Thanksgiving (going up, the TE had French toast...go figure. Guess they were using up leftovers?)

The pancakes were not terrible but not great. But I am picky about pancakes because I usually make my own from scratch.

I also had the steak, it now comes with caramelized onions (which I really enjoyed) instead of some kind of brown sauce (which I never did).

I will say I wish they were more consistent in veggie prep - I've had green beans that were *perfect,* but more recently it seems like they're either cooked hard or way too mushy. (I can't eat the carrots - have a food intolerance to them. So I pick out the green beans and leave the carrots)

I SUPPOSE the common menu might have some economies of scale but it's not very attractive for someone to take a cross-country trip on several lines (e.g, TE to EB) if they know it's gonna be the same four or five entrees for every night of the trip.

I also wish they'd some day bring back the peanut butter pie they used to have, I really enjoyed that.


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## Palmetto (Dec 1, 2015)

Filly,

You have to remember what's printed on packaging for cooking directions. "Oven vary...."


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## oregon pioneer (Dec 1, 2015)

FrensicPic said:


> What am I missing here? Spot checking menus on Amtrak.com, the menus (PDFs) I see are all coded "0515", the CONO is "0715".
> 
> The menu items themselves are the same as I experienced last August on the TE, CL and SWC.
> 
> Have they not updated the website?


Current menus are not found on the individual train pages, but all may be found on the Amtrak Food Facts page.



Mystic River Dragon said:


> I have looked over the menu, and the chocolate tart is a definite yes and the noodle dish is a definite no. Probably will just stick with the tried-and-true (whatever of those dishes are left).


When I first had the chocolate tart on my eastbound CZ trip last month, I told the server I would be eating it at every meal where offered, until I reached Chicago or they ran out. Some may not like the texture of the crust, but I thought of it as "fudgy." The filling, of course, is divine.



fillyjonk said:


> The pancakes were not terrible but not great. But I am picky about pancakes because I usually make my own from scratch.


Yep, me too. No white flour pancake ever measures up to my whole grain sourdough, so I just get the Continental with oatmeal.


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## TEREB (Dec 1, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Does the Silver Meteor have the new menu? I will be traveling on it soon and like to plan ahead so as not to hold up the servers or the other people at my table. (I don't want to look over all the choices online and then find it's the old menu and have to decide quickly.)


We just got off the Meteor on Saturday. Yes, they had the new menu. By the way, the crab cakes were SHRIMP and crab cakes. I thought they were not too bad. Not as good as the original. Didn't care for the sauce that came with it. I bring my own little packets of tarter sauce. Chocolate dessert was actually pretty good, a little too sweet, but good.

Water in sleepers was a brand called Roxane. From upstate NY. This water was vile. I have two meds that I have to take with a full glass of water, and this water made me gag.


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## BCL (Dec 1, 2015)

TEREB said:


> Water in sleepers was a brand called Roxane. From upstate NY. This water was vile. I have two meds that I have to take with a full glass of water, and this water made me gag.


Roxane is a French company. The US subsidiary is called CG Roxane, and their best known brand name is Crystal Geyser Alpine Spring Water. Apparently they have a variety of different labels, along with different water sources.

Their NY plant seems to be their latest. I have absolutely no issues with their water from their Mt Shasta source - ironically enough bottled in Weed, CA.

http://www.fccrg.org/fulton-county-news/spring-water-bottler-c-g-roxane-opens-crystal-geyser-plant-in-johnstown-ny/

Sometimes I see a bottle that lists as many as 6 different sources, and some have some odd taste while some are pretty good. You never know what you're going to get, although it's supposedly safe enough to drink.


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## TEREB (Dec 1, 2015)

BCL said:


> TEREB said:
> 
> 
> > Water in sleepers was a brand called Roxane. From upstate NY. This water was vile. I have two meds that I have to take with a full glass of water, and this water made me gag.
> ...


And Crystal Geyser tastes pretty good to me. Too bad they didn't stick with it. Thanks for the information.


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## BCL (Dec 1, 2015)

TEREB said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > TEREB said:
> ...


I think it depends on their source, and I suppose the taste could change depending on conditions at the source. This is from a West Virginia health agency and lists name brands, the company, and known sources. They have both Roxane and Mountain Roxane listed.

http://www.wvdhhr.org/phs/bottledwater/brands/rptbwbrandnames.pdf

These are Crystal Geyser's source:

http://www.crystalgeyserasw.com/resources.html

http://www.crystalgeyserasw.com/docs/ASW_Bottled_Water_Report_Johnstown.pdf

Their newest is Johnstown, NY.


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## TEREB (Dec 1, 2015)

BCL.... Very interesting links. Thanks for posting.


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## blondninja (Dec 1, 2015)

Read this yesterday and thought it appropriate.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/11/30/airline-food-american-delta-united/76445822/

Too bad Amtrak seems to be going in the opposite direction.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 2, 2015)

blondninja said:


> Read this yesterday and thought it appropriate.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/11/30/airline-food-american-delta-united/76445822/
> 
> Too bad Amtrak seems to be going in the opposite direction.


From the article...



> Delta is making its domestic first class offerings more healthful and varied, going from roughly a dozen to 24 different options on flights that travel between 900 and 1499 miles. Among the possible entrees: grilled shrimp with roasted corn and tomato salad, or lemongrass chicken with Japanese cobb salad. The change reflects a renewed approach to food the airline first served on its international service, says Delta spokesman Michael Thomas. And he adds that the larger menu will hopefully keep frequent fliers from becoming bored with the same choices flight after flight. “Essentially if you are a frequent flier with us, it will be several months before you would have a duplicate meal,’’ Thomas says.


^ Compare that with Amtrak's philosophy of _waiting_ several months to avoid yet another duplicate meal.

The main saving factor for me is that regardless of your class of service many airports now have improved selections for food compared to the past. It's not exclusively frozen junk food anymore and in many cases you can find freshly prepared and tasty food if you take the time to look beyond your own gate area. For domestic flights I rarely need a meal because they're not long enough for me to get that hungry, but on Amtrak's LD network most trips are a long and involved process that is greatly impacted by the quality and variability of the food. Unfortunately in the case of Amtrak the lack of options, adverse schedule keeping, and poor calling times at many train stations means you're limited to whatever they bothered to stock on board. Which largely remains stuck in the frozen and precooked junk food era which is then warmed over and dumped on a plate.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 2, 2015)

Along the lines of Menu changes, are there any reports of Turkey Dinners showing up in LD Diners on Thanksgiving?


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## fillyjonk (Dec 2, 2015)

I always liked the Ozarka water they used to have. (I have now taken to carrying my own tap water in a metal bottle - you can't always trust there WILL be bottled water, even in the sleepers). I had the Roxane on the last trip and found nothing objectionable about it. I suppose it depends on the source where it was bottled.

A bit more on the pancakes: I will say they were better than (at least my local) IHOP. I'm actually kind of disappointed in IHOP, for a place with "pancakes" in its name, the ones I've have had are not that good.

Also, on the trip up, I had lunch - I got the mac and cheese. Nothing objectionable about it but it was pretty clearly Kraft. Also not served with veggies and I thought it was going to be.

Of the "new" desserts, I like the chocolate tart but it is EXTREMELY rich. I think I'd prefer to have half of one.... Unlike some other folks here, actually like the strawberry cheesecake, too, though I admit I liked the traditional cheesecake better.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 2, 2015)

I was on the Silver Meteor for dinner yesterday and breakfast today (the train was on time, so no free lunch--darn!) It turned out to be a very pleasant surprise. Flowers in vases on the tables (not sure if they were real, I didn't want to be rude and pick them up and check)--real or not, they were attractive. The four of us at the table were asked if we wanted a salad, and the server actually seemed disappointed that two of us said no.

We all stuck to the safer basics (steak for everyone), and all of our meals were hot and prepared well. We varied on dessert (two cheesecakes, one ice cream, and one chocolate cream tart--that last was me, of course  ) . Everyone enjoyed their desserts.

For breakfast, I had a cheese omelet with the potatoes and a croissant (plus dessert and coffee). It was the tried-and-true again, but it was fine, and the omelet was done nicely.

I've seen this dining crew before--they are professional, polite, and efficient and do a good job. My wonderful sleeper car attendant (Jean) was in the dining car at dinner and helping the dining car crew (a full train, with four sleepers!)


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## Narrow Margin (Dec 3, 2015)

I thought the chicken, pork shanks and steak were all pretty decent on the Coast Starlight up to Portland a couple weeks ago. I would say an improvement over the same chicken and steak dishes that were served on the Southwest Chief when I rode back in May.


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## TylerP42 (Dec 3, 2015)

I think the chicken got worse. I used to love it. When I had it a few weeks ago, it was way over seasoned.


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## Davids (Dec 3, 2015)

Here are some pictures taken from train 850 on Nov 30. The meals were blue plate dinner specials.


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## willem (Dec 3, 2015)

TylerP42 said:


> I think the chicken got worse. I used to love it. When I had it a few weeks ago, it was way over seasoned.


Tastes vary, of course, but I thought the half-chicken was way over-salted when I had it a couple of years ago.

If most dishes are being mass produced off-train, I suppose the chance of a significant variation between servings is reduced.


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## yarrow (Dec 3, 2015)

Davids said:


> Here are some pictures taken from train 850 on Nov 30. The meals were blue plate dinner specials.


yeah, well amtrak couldn't, yeah,well do anything, yeah,well like that. on account of being scared of the big bad mica and on account of management being pretty clueless and yeah,well look at the food they serve on "beech grove". nothing to complain of there


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## Manny T (Dec 7, 2015)

In my understanding Aramark runs Amtrak's commissaries; whether the food comes onto the train pre-cooked, uncooked, or flash-frozen must vary from item to item, and be based on the kitchen's menu and capacity.

For some background on Aramark, they stock prisons and high schools as well as trains. At the present time students at Roosevelt High School in Chicago have started a lunchroom boycott because of the poor quality of Aramark's meals. In addition the students are publishing a website with details of their boycott, featuring the meals in pictures, complaints, suggestions etc. Interesting reading alongside this forum. https://rhsschoollunch.wordpress.com/

Question: can Amtrak's riders can learn any lessons from the high school students in Chicago?


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## Big Iron (Dec 7, 2015)

Manny T said:


> In my understanding Aramark runs Amtrak's commissaries; whether the food comes onto the train pre-cooked, uncooked, or flash-frozen must vary from item to item, and be based on the kitchen's menu and capacity.
> 
> For some background on Aramark, they stock prisons and high schools as well as trains. At the present time students at Roosevelt High School in Chicago have started a lunchroom boycott because of the poor quality of Aramark's meals. In addition the students are publishing a website with details of their boycott, featuring the meals in pictures, complaints, suggestions etc. Interesting reading alongside this forum. https://rhsschoollunch.wordpress.com/
> 
> Question: can Amtrak's riders can learn any lessons from the high school students in Chicago?


With Aramark you get what you pay for. Aramark had the contract for the cafeteria at my former employer and the food was quite good. They also handled the Executive dining room and staffed a private Chef. That food was extremely good in both quality and presentation. Sodexo replaced Aramark at the contract renewal and Aramark was missed.


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## Manny T (Dec 7, 2015)

"With Aramark you get what you pay for." That implies an honest business and a fair honest trade. But the students at Roosevelt High School did their research and this is what they found: 

"We learned that Aramark is a company with a laundry list of corruption and scandals a mile long. They may not know how to keep us happy, but they certainly keep their investors happy."


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## Palmetto (Dec 7, 2015)

The students at good ole Roosevelt High School have the option of bring their own lunch, like in former times. If you don't like the product, don't eat the product. Maybe they should talk to a few of their peers in Bangladesh who are begging on the streets for food.

Sorry for the rant, but frankly, I think we're spoiling the youngsters in the country. This from a person who was in education for 43 years until recently.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 7, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> The students at good ole Roosevelt High School have the option of bring their own lunch, like in former times. If you don't like the product, don't eat the product. Maybe they should talk to a few of their peers in Bangladesh who are begging on the streets for food. Sorry for the rant, but frankly, I think we're spoiling the youngsters in the country. This from a person who was in education for 43 years until recently.


So if you don't appreciate Aramark's product and don't approve of their business decisions for moral and ethical reasons then in your view the counter argument is that Bangladesh is worse? What kind of educator criticizes students for failing to accept the status quo or trying to change anything? Ranting about Bangladesh is Godwin's Law level laziness. When it comes to identifying shared problems, finding a path forward, and enacting real change American students need all the help and motivation they can get. Compared to citizens in other industrialized democracies Americans almost never speak out or disrupt anything en mass and our culture continues to suffer for it.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 7, 2015)

Ditto to Chri's post! We need more students and young people, hell people,getting involved!

Apathy and defending the status quo are the worst things in the world, for they allow evil and greed to triumph!


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## GaSteve (Dec 7, 2015)

I wonder if we can get back on topic here.


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## BCL (Dec 7, 2015)

Big Iron said:


> With Aramark you get what you pay for. Aramark had the contract for the cafeteria at my former employer and the food was quite good. They also handled the Executive dining room and staffed a private Chef. That food was extremely good in both quality and presentation. Sodexo replaced Aramark at the contract renewal and Aramark was missed.


Aramark is a large company. They previously ran the stadium concessions where I watched baseball. They also operate a variety of national park or similar concessions. They recently got the contract for Yosemite, which will include dining, lodging, stores, and services (like tours and the park shuttle).

For the most part it will be the local employees and management that will make the difference.


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## fillyjonk (Dec 8, 2015)

Most "cafeteria service" plans have different levels of service (on my campus, we have Sodexho, and they have a, b, and c levels).

the "everyday" level - the cheap level, where stuff is most likely to be crummy - is the level served in the cafeteria on any average day.

the "b" level is sometimes served on special occasions, or when there are prospective students on campus (at events like Honors' Day). It is a cut above the "c" service.

the "a" service is pulled out and used when there are prospective donors, or parents, or other dignitaries on campus.

So you can see a really wide range of variation in the quality of the food. I would not choose to eat the "c" level cafeteria food if I had other options (I do - I bring my own lunch). But I would eat the "a" level food if I knew that was what was being offered.

The question is, which level will Amtrak use, and will they decide to ratchet back a level or two in the future in the name of "cost savings"?

And yes, I'm aware of the slightly cynical way the levels are used - serving the "good stuff" only when people who have money are on campus.


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## JoeBas (Dec 8, 2015)

You should, as a student body, make a BIG DEAL about how much better the food is than the usual slop they serve, and how glad you are to see them so you can have edible food, when the Honors Day students are on campus. Something like that would get the folks' in charge attention pretty quick.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 8, 2015)

fillyjonk said:


> Most "cafeteria service" plans have different levels of service (on my campus, we have Sodexho, and they have a, b, and c levels).
> 
> the "everyday" level - the cheap level, where stuff is most likely to be crummy - is the level served in the cafeteria on any average day.
> 
> ...


At a previous employer we had Aramark chefs that cooked the scheduled monthly menu but would also make daily specials or pretty much whatever you wanted from the available ingredients. I didn't like everything they made but there were several options I found to be genuinely fresh and tasty and a few that I really looked forward to eating. On those occasions when nothing appealed to me they would make something else I liked by request. It was an easy and cheap way to avoid the lunch rush at surrounding restaurants without ever having to leave the campus. I'm not sure what official "level" those meals were considered but they were easily three levels above the impossible to modify precooked frozen food Aramark serves on Amtrak today.


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## KC Ghost Rider (Dec 8, 2015)

I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.


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## BCL (Dec 8, 2015)

KC Ghost Rider said:


> I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.


With Amtrak you're probably dealing with union issues for one. It's still going to require some sort of commissary, which Amtrak doesn't currently have, and a contractor can have economies of scale.


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## neroden (Dec 8, 2015)

Amtrak refuses to exercise any form of quality control over the commissaries provided by Aramark -- something which Amtrak is perfectly capable of doing if they want to -- to the point of refusing to even get lists of ingredients for the products (something which I can get from any Aramark-supplied hotel).

The problem here lies in Amtrak management's unwillingness to do anything approximating best practice.


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## rrdude (Dec 9, 2015)

neroden said:


> Amtrak refuses to exercise any form of quality control over the commissaries provided by Aramark -- something which Amtrak is perfectly capable of doing if they want to -- to the point of refusing to even get lists of ingredients for the products (something which I can get from any Aramark-supplied hotel).
> 
> The problem here lies in Amtrak management's unwillingness to do anything approximating best practice.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep, it's management, whether it's in-house or out-sourced, Amtrak management should be held to task, for quality.


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## OBS (Dec 9, 2015)

It has become apparent here that many people have a serious misunderstanding as to Aramark's role in relation to Amtrak. 99% of their job is Warehousing, Inventory control and train loading and unloading. The ONLY direct control they have over food products served on Amtrak is the Meal preparation in the flight kitchens of the food served on Acela FC. The menus are chosen by Amtrak Aramark just prepares the food.

All other food items are selected by Amtrak. Aramark does the purchasing and other work as indicated above. Don't like the choice , quality, variety, ingredients, quantity supplied to train, etc.? These are all managed by AMTRAK. Amtrak chooses the purveyor, brand, etc. Aramark just "makes it happen".

Until approximately 15-18 years ago, Amtrak managed the commissaries themselves. Let me assure you, the work Aramark does is "light years" ahead of the quality of work done by Amtrak managed commissaries. I mean this in terms of timeliness in loading/unloading trains, correctness in orders supplied to train, Control of theft, etc.

Hopefully this helps explain who and what in terms of responsibility...


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## zephyr17 (Dec 9, 2015)

Thanks, OBS. Can you shed any light on the pretty consistent under-supplying diners. I realize there has to be some chance of that to reduce waste, but it seems like they don't pay much attention to the actual passenger load on a given train. I've heard crew members comment to this effect.


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## OBS (Dec 9, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> Thanks, OBS. Can you shed any light on the pretty consistent under-supplying diners. I realize there has to be some chance of that to reduce waste, but it seems like they don't pay much attention to the actual passenger load on a given train. I've heard crew members comment to this effect.


Again, this is a management issue. I, also, assume it is to help reduce waste, but beyond that...I have not been directly involved with a diner in a few years...

I can say, though, that trips can be unpredictable, just like for the café service... one trip with 200 people, nobody eats, next trip w/ 200 and literally everyone eats...sometimes it is a no win situation...


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## KC Ghost Rider (Dec 9, 2015)

BCL said:


> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> > I figured it was time to add my two cents four dollars worth. Amtrak could easily run its own catering/dining services and commissary without a third party. I really have no problem with the food the dining car serves. If fact, I enjoy most items I order; especially the latest chocolate Mouse concoction...death by chocolate! However, what started out as a cost cutting move ends up costing more with a consistent mediocre product. Before someone starts asking me for the data/proof/analysis let me say it is my opinion based on my experience in the US Navy. In the early 1990's, I received orders to become the craft master of a service craft...a torpedo retriever. The humorous thing about service craft, they are not really meant for long-term habitation. Yet we would go to sea for a week or so. We had a galley (kitchen) of sorts and prepared our food underway. In 1992, I could collect about $10 per day per person and have some great meals. Fresh three cheese omelettes with raisin toast and grits for breakfast, Cheese burgers with buns and fixings and baked beans for lunch, and Panamanian rice with chicken plus salad for dinner. The menu had to rotate per order of the Naval service. Yes, we managed to bake cookies for snacks and desserts. We did not have a chef...we all had a radioman who doubled as cook and I helped plan the meals. A free crew member would help prepare and clean up. What money was left over, if any, was put into a fund for parties. If the Navy had allowed a third party service, it would have cost more in the long run and we could no longer control what was supplied. Amtrak has the equipment to cook fresh foods. The prices in the dining car ought to yield large margins on menu items. $11.50 for a hamburger...I wonder if a cook scaling the ground angus for equal patties, could produce three or for meals for that price. Amtrak could very well cut catering/dining service costs by doing some of these food preparations in house.
> ...


The cost of labor is always a large part of the total cost of any operation; union or non-union. Economies of scale help reduce the cost for all parties, but is calculated to increase the provider's margins and maximize profit.



OBS said:


> It has become apparent here that many people have a serious misunderstanding as to Aramark's role in relation to Amtrak. 99% of their job is Warehousing, Inventory control and train loading and unloading. The ONLY direct control they have over food products served on Amtrak is the Meal preparation in the flight kitchens of the food served on Acela FC. The menus are chosen by Amtrak Aramark just prepares the food.
> 
> All other food items are selected by Amtrak. Aramark does the purchasing and other work as indicated above. Don't like the choice , quality, variety, ingredients, quantity supplied to train, etc.? These are all managed by AMTRAK. Amtrak chooses the purveyor, brand, etc. Aramark just "makes it happen".
> 
> ...


Thank you for your clarification and explanation. My point is that some of these ready-to-serve and ready-to-heat and serve items might actually cost less to make on the train from raw ingredients. For example, my son loves those sweet onion Bubba Burgers and pays $15 for a 4 lb. box that yields 12 1/3 lb. patties. I bet him I could make a burger of like quality and taste for less, using raw ingredients such as lean ground chuck and sweet yellow onions. My cost for the 4 lbs. of meat was $10.64 plus one yellow onion $.69 for a total of $11.33. My 1/3 lb. patties tasted like his. This can be done if there is a will.

Ultimately this situation occurred due to a failure of leadership within Amtrak's catering/dining service. Management attempts at reducing cost just reduced service at the passenger's level. However, much could be done to properly provision a train and expand sales, thereby reducing operating loses.

Again, I do think you for elucidating the vendor's role and lines of responsibility. :hi:


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## JoeBas (Dec 10, 2015)

You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.

Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?


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## KC Ghost Rider (Dec 10, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.
> 
> Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?


I think $.31 buys me approximately 1 minute of time under the union pay scale. Personally, I can hand scale and pat 3-5 burgers in that one minute and that should cover the labor cost of a $.94 worth of raw materials that sells for $11.50. Yes, speed is important. I acknowledge there are challenges, but if Amtrak had the will it could be done. For what it is worth, just keeping with this one burger concept, the cost for the meal is: $4.49 ($.94 patty + $.60 potato chips + $.40 lettuce, tomato, onion, pickle + $1.00 bun + $1.55 for 5 minutes OBS labor). That leaves a margin of $7.01 to help off-set any variable and hidden costs...per burger. I do understand this is simplistic, but this is how a business covers costs (Amtrak's goal), becomes profitable (Business's goal), and then increases shareholder value by maximizing those profits year after year (investor's goal).

Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

KC Ghost Rider said:


> Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.


There are also issues with sanitation and cleanup. Right now it seems odd on the face of it, but there's a reason why more disposable plastic is used compared with Corelle. Having employees hand-preparing ground beef is an undertaking. It's frankly a lot more cost effective to just buy preformed burgers.


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## zepherdude (Dec 10, 2015)

BCL said:


> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, somethings are cheaper bought already prepared. I am not suggesting making Mayonnaise, as there is little to be gained there. However, in a general sense, items prepared from raw ingredients cost less. Over time the small difference add up to a large sum. I am not blind to the convenience aspect of this, but if Amtrak's goal is to reduce catering/dining service losses to the point of covering costs (IMHO this will never happen), all these things should be explored. The current strategy is reducing value for the customer and that leads to loss of business rather than increasing it.
> ...


How about unsanitary and unhealthy as can be. Raw ground meat in a hot kitchen or car exposed to flys or cross contamination and unsanitary conditions. You might eat one but not me. Amtrak sanitation is ruled by USDA guidelines and must follow specific proceedures for food preparation. Thawed ground meat sitting in blood is not my idea of saving money.


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## KC Ghost Rider (Dec 10, 2015)

zepherdude said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > KC Ghost Rider said:
> ...


I am sure the sanitation requirements can be met. Raw meat is not sitting in a hot kitchen; it is in a refrigerator at 40° F or slightly below. It is covered and, while no kitchen totally prevents cross contamination, it is minimized using standard food safety practices. It will be cooked until reaching 160° F and held there for 40 seconds (a critical control point). Every Galley (kitchen) I worked in, or have been associated with, had zero major food safety violations. I can honestly say the ground beef never sat in blood, however, there is trace amounts...it is raw meat! Again, I will stipulate there could be microbial growth, but that can be adequately addressed by following standard food safety practices.

If you believe the boxed frozen patties are safer to eat, you really should visit a meat processing plant. I believe most people would become strict vegans afterwards. However, it is not my mission to argue about this topic. I had my opinion based on some experience catering/food service, business management, and logistics. I will maintain that there is a solution to the problem Amtrak faces with their catering/dining services. The person who thought the solution was to cut cost through decreased services to the customer, either real or perceived, will surely succeed in alienating all but the most loyal of patron.


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## tricia (Dec 10, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.
> 
> Time has a monetary cost to it as well, PARTICULARLY on an environment like an Amtrak kitchen, where space is limited, and the amount of customers fixed. In the example above, you $3.67 per 12 burgers, or an average of $.31 a burger. Care to guess how much of a union shop Amtrak OBS member's time $.31 buys?


Um, doesn't Amtrak pay on-board service staff for all their hours on board? The relevant question isn't how much time it takes to prepare fresh food, but rather how much of the time Amtrak is already paying for might (or might not) be available for this.


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## niemi24s (Dec 10, 2015)

But we don't eat the hamburger patties raw. And if my understanding is correct, all those contaminants (blood's a _contaminant_?) mentioned are neutralized when the patty is properly cooked. Of course folks will now chime in with "How do I know my patty is properly cooked on the train?" You don't - no matter where it's cooked - unless you cook it yourself (with the aid of your trusty calibrated meat thermometer, no doubt).

In my opinion, we Americans are "ate up with the dumbs" when it comes to food preparation. Remember the ban in New Jersey on eggs over easy a few years ago? And witness the horrified reactions posted by some Americans to hamburger patties with pink centers and bacon that's not incinerated in a VIA Rail diner. I like Andrew Zimmern's motto: "If it looks good, eat it!" Just my 2¢ worth. YMMV too. .


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## OBS (Dec 11, 2015)

tricia said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > You're missing a bit of the calculation in your example. And that's the time it takes you to prepare this fresh vs. the time saved buying (or stocking) pre-prepared items.
> ...


OBS staff is not paid for all hours on board. On LD trains, as long as dormitory (sleeper) space is available, OBS employees are only paid for the hours on duty...ie off payroll during evening/night time hours, and back on clock when required to start the next day.


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## BCL (Dec 11, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> But we don't eat the hamburger patties raw. And if my understanding is correct, all those contaminants (blood's a _contaminant_?) mentioned are neutralized when the patty is properly cooked. Of course folks will now chime in with "How do I know my patty is properly cooked on the train?" You don't - no matter where it's cooked - unless you cook it yourself (with the aid of your trusty calibrated meat thermometer, no doubt).
> 
> In my opinion, we Americans are "ate up with the dumbs" when it comes to food preparation. Remember the ban in New Jersey on eggs over easy a few years ago? And witness the horrified reactions posted by some Americans to hamburger patties with pink centers and bacon that's not incinerated in a VIA Rail diner. I like Andrew Zimmern's motto: "If it looks good, eat it!" Just my 2¢ worth. YMMV too. .


I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.


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## niemi24s (Dec 11, 2015)

BCL said:


> I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.


Aerosolize chicken blood? Other than whacking off the head of a live chicken and letting it run around loose or preparing raw un-bled chickens in a blender, how the heck does aerosolization occur?


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## BCL (Dec 11, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that's the issue. It's whether or not there's cross contamination of uncooked items. I recall a recommendation that raw chicken shouldn't be washed in a kitchen because it tends to aerosolize the blood, and since it's going to be cooked anyways.
> ...


It was well reported a few years ago that washing raw chicken tends to spread bacteria-laden liquid. The advice given was to just cook it thoroughly.


> http://drexel.edu/dontwashyourchicken/
> 
> DON'T WASH YOUR CHICKEN
> 
> ...


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## niemi24s (Dec 11, 2015)

Oh, now I see. Well, doing that does not produce an aerosol of blood or anything else. It simply spreads around contaminants from a chicken if it's washed like you were washing your car. IMHO, the video is nothing more than the usual "the sky is falling" blather from health pundits. Wonder _how_ they'd want me to use that soap and water to wash my hands? [That's a rhetorical question - I don't need or want to know the answer]. Again, this is only my 2¢ worth.


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## BCL (Dec 11, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> Oh, now I see. Well, doing that does not produce an aerosol of blood or anything else. It simply spreads around contaminants from a chicken if it's washed like you were washing your car. IMHO, the video is nothing more than the usual "the sky is falling" blather from health pundits.


Even so, the gist is that minimal handling of raw meats would be advisable in tight quarters. Granted a nicely seasoned patty can be made ready in a commissary or even requested from the meat supplier.

I've been to fish and meat markets, and they're often washing down and even bleaching/disinfecting the surfaces. I think another deal is that they're not actually cooking any of it near there.


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## JackieTakestheTrain (Dec 14, 2015)

Hi. No new menu posted for The Cardinal on Amtrak's website.

Can anyone offer any experiences since new menu?

Thanks!


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## TinCan782 (Dec 14, 2015)

JackieTakestheTrain said:


> Hi. No new menu posted for The Cardinal on Amtrak's website.
> 
> Can anyone offer any experiences since new menu?
> 
> Thanks!


All the posted menus I've seen on Amtrak's website are still 05/15...nothing new yet. I have yet to see a menu dated Nov 4!


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## peconicstation (Dec 15, 2015)

JackieTakestheTrain said:


> Hi. No new menu posted for The Cardinal on Amtrak's website.
> 
> Can anyone offer any experiences since new menu?
> 
> Thanks!


The Cardinal always has a different menu, as it has limited facilities and the food is all heat and eat.

The food facts site has the current offerings available on The Cardinal.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=7A78346AD5FE47F9F6EE86E679B2E833E071FE1085C26D7C&EV=2

Ken


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## Palmetto (Dec 15, 2015)

I'm surprised at the amount of salt in some of these offerings. For example, in Acela First for the scrambled eggs and bacon there's 101% of your daily requirement. Yikes!


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 15, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> JackieTakestheTrain said:
> 
> 
> > Hi. No new menu posted for The Cardinal on Amtrak's website.
> ...


At least from the pictures and descriptions the Yankee Pot Roast and Roast Chicken w. Sage Dressing look pretty good, even if the portions seem small.


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## oregon pioneer (Dec 15, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > JackieTakestheTrain said:
> ...


I traveled on the Cardinal a couple of weeks ago, and had the beef. It was good, and the chicken that others had looked good. Service was slow due to equipment limitations, but we ordered wine to help us pass the time in good spirits (hey, we didn't have anywhere else we needed to be!). Had a very good time, LOL. The crew was outstanding, and they made sure we knew the chocolate mousse tart was available too! :wub:


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## JackieTakestheTrain (Dec 16, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> JackieTakestheTrain said:
> 
> 
> > Hi. No new menu posted for The Cardinal on Amtrak's website.
> ...


Hey, thanks for pointing this out!

The photos really help. I actually had feared far worse for choices...but then again, it was already pretty bad on the Cardinal the lately. Can only improve.

Since I am traveling on Christmas Day, I am hoping my sugar-free Strawberry Jello might come with maybe some green Jello, too! Haha!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> The Cardinal always has a different menu, as it has limited facilities and the food is all heat and eat.


Besides the eggs and steak is anything on Amtrak _not_ heat and eat?


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > The Cardinal always has a different menu, as it has limited facilities and the food is all heat and eat.
> ...


It depends on your definition. If you mean totally prepared on board the train, I'm not even sure if the steak qualifies, does it actually come as raw pieces of meat? Or are they partially pre-cooked, heated, and then further cooked for well done?


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## HenryK (Dec 16, 2015)

Amtrak's suppliers use the sous-vide method of cooking. That's quite a bit more involved than just freeze-and-heat. In fact, many good restaurants use sous-vide viands.

Here's a good explanation of sous-vide cookery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sous-vide.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2015)

HenryK said:


> Amtrak's suppliers use the sous-vide method of cooking. That's quite a bit more involved than just freeze-and-heat. In fact, many good restaurants use sous-vide viands.


I believe the sous-vide preparations were limited to the meat portions of "chef inspired" meals that have since been discontinued. The sous-vide process creates an especially tender and flavorful result by lowering the cooking temperature and preventing loss of moisture. Actual sous-vide meals stand in stark contrast to the dry texture and bland flavor meals that Amtrak serves today.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2015)

Devils Advocate - im guessing you may be right, the lamb shank was the best thing I've had on any train ever. It used to be one of those specials. It was still available in the Parlor Car of the Coast Starlight this summer.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 16, 2015)

Yep, Amtrak always did Lamb well, and depending on the chef, Steak and fish also!

I too miss the lamb along with the old deserts that used to be so tasty! ( the Bourbon Pecan Pie on the Crescent and City of New Orleans was fantastic served a la mode!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 16, 2015)

Instead of which, we have Greek yogurt cheesecake on the Cardinal. Yuck.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 16, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> HenryK said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak's suppliers use the sous-vide method of cooking. That's quite a bit more involved than just freeze-and-heat. In fact, many good restaurants use sous-vide viands.
> ...


Actually, the chicken I had on the Meteor last month was moist and flavorful. The rice pilaf had a bit too much salt, though


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2015)

MARC Rider said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > HenryK said:
> ...


Sous-vide is all about coaxing the fullest natural flavor profile out of the meat itself. In my experience Amtrak's chicken entree is more about overwhelming any remaining nuances with heavy seasoning that overpowers the other flavors. I'm not anti-seasoning per se, and in fact I enjoy spicy chicken as much as the next guy, but if Amtrak's chicken is really sous-vide then I think they're completely missing the point.


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