# TEXtrak?



## Harvey-CA (Jan 17, 2014)

It appears that some aren't waiting for Amtrak to define the future of train travel:

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/money/2014/01/16/next-generation-border-crossing-first-ever-high-speed-train-to-connect-us-and/

Of course it's all predicated on U.S. participation (i.e. financing), but I see more of these type of projects popping up in spite of Amtrak's malaise.


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## Ryan (Jan 17, 2014)

> Next-Generation Border Crossing: First-Ever High Speed Train To Connect U.S. And Mexico By 2018


No way that happens.

Will something get build down there? Maybe.

Will it cross the border and be operating in 4 years? No way.


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## cirdan (Jan 17, 2014)

It would also seem to me that San Antionio is maybe an odd place for a high speed line to finish. Can it generate enough traffic to justify the line? Of course if it connected to the Texas Triangle, or in some other way accessed Dallas and / or Houston, this would be a different story.


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## Anderson (Jan 17, 2014)

Moved this to the right forum.

As to the story itself, the current Mexican government (and President) happens to be fairly pro-passenger rail and has a few domestic projects. Likewise, Carlos Slim expressed interest in investing in high speed rail, so it's possible he's wrapped up in this somehow.

Edit: As to the route, San Antonio-Monterrey is likely at least something of an air route...though how much of that involves transfers, I don't know. I'd assume, btw, that there would be a stop in one of the Laredos or the other.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 17, 2014)

How ironic that it used to take years and years in Mexico to get anything done, now the delays and stumbling blocks are in the richest and supposedly innovative Country on Earth! 

(And I'm a Doubting Thomas on this one myself, Not gonna happen!  )


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## VentureForth (Jan 17, 2014)

I've ridden the last train they ran between Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo. That was back in 1991. I would love to see a train go to SAS.



cirdan said:


> It would also seem to me that San Antionio is maybe an odd place for a high speed line to finish. Can it generate enough traffic to justify the line? Of course if it connected to the Texas Triangle, or in some other way accessed Dallas and / or Houston, this would be a different story.


Not really. It's a great place to connect to AMTRAK.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 17, 2014)

Harvey-CA said:


> It appears that some aren't waiting for Amtrak to define the future of train travel


If anyone was waiting on Amtrak to start an international connection with a country that has already killed 99% of their passenger rail network (through free market privatization no less) theyd have to be crazy. Apparently my view does not mesh with Fox News Latino (which is a mind numbing concept to begin with) but Id be hard pressed to imagine someone looking to Amtrak to build and maintain such a route while under constant political attack and suffering from a shrinking budget.



Harvey-CA said:


> Of course it's all predicated on U.S. participation (i.e. financing), but I see more of these type of projects popping up in spite of Amtrak's malaise.


So Amtraks malaise is NOT predicated on US participation (i.e. financing)?



cirdan said:


> It would also seem to me that San Antionio is maybe an odd place for a high speed line to finish. Can it generate enough traffic to justify the line? Of course if it connected to the Texas Triangle, or in some other way accessed Dallas and / or Houston, this would be a different story.


&


Anderson said:


> As to the route, San Antonio-Monterrey is likely at least something of an air route...though how much of that involves transfers, I don't know.


In any given week there are roughly fifty nonstop flights between San Antonio and various Mexican cities. There are probably a hundred weekly buses as well, although Id be surprised if anyone in the market for a bus would be able to afford traveling via HSR. Id guess a few thousand private vehicles make the same trip in a week. So Id say a vague potential for traffic would seem to be there. No idea if its practical to move enough of that over to rail to make it financially viable though. Presumably there would need to be a few years where the focus was primarily on getting the word out rather than on recovering initial expenses.



VentureForth said:


> [san Antonio is] a great place to connect to AMTRAK.


Id say the _potential_ for a great connection point is there.

The Sunset Station has two house tracks that can host two trains simultaneously, but due to the current layout only one train at a time is easily reachable by passengers. Besides trains and taxis no other transportation connects to Sunset Station directly. Well, I guess theres a selection of rental bicycles, but how are you going to take your luggage with you on those? The original station plays no role in passenger rail services and the replacement station is rather small for handling more than one train at a time.

The original International & Great Northern Railroad station remains intact and has been purchased by the local transit authority. However that station is across from the local jail, has lots of vagrants, has no routine transportation services (to my knowledge), and has no method for receiving even a single passenger train at this time. If there were a major push to create an efficient intermodal station that included trains, buses, shuttles, and taxis I think San Antonio could put one together in short order, but for now its not the sort of city that would be great to connect in.


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## Anderson (Jan 17, 2014)

On the ticket prices, it really comes down to which side of the border supplies the OBS and crews. Assuming this is a completely new operation without direct interchange with the freights, I could see the Mexican side being paid far less than a US Class I and the US side being operated in an open shop capacity. If the maintenance is primarily performed in Mexico, there's a _lot_ of personnel cost you can chop off there.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 17, 2014)

Anderson said:


> On the ticket prices, it really comes down to which side of the border supplies the OBS and crews. Assuming this is a completely new operation without direct interchange with the freights, I could see the Mexican side being paid far less than a US Class I and the US side being operated in an open shop capacity. If the maintenance is primarily performed in Mexico, there's a _lot_ of personnel cost you can chop off there.


Excellent Post Cliff! With Texas being an Anti-Union/Right to Work State and Mexico still paying Sub-Standard Wages and Benefits, ( I would Imagine that as in the US the Engineer and Conductors will make More!) Labor wouldn't be such a Big Factor in Costs of Operation! Of course with the Current State of Mexico's Economy and the Out of Control Crime I doubt if any Americans would want to travel to Crowded,Polluted ,Crime Ridden Monterrey by Any Means, Especially through Nuevo Laredo, one of the moist Dangerous Places in North America! :help:

I'm still from MIssouri on This, it Possibly could happen in the next 100 Years!!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2014)

Anderson said:


> On the ticket prices, it really comes down to which side of the border supplies the OBS and crews. Assuming this is a completely new operation without direct interchange with the freights, I could see the Mexican side being paid far less than a US Class I and the US side being operated in an open shop capacity. If the maintenance is primarily performed in Mexico, there's a _lot_ of personnel cost you can chop off there.


In the case of buses the ticket cost is indeed very low. The maintenance, cleanliness, safety, schedule keeping, and station services are also rather poor. To be blunt, you wouldn't see me riding any of those bus lines unless I truly had no other choice. Those bus lines focus on keeping costs low while only provide the most basic of services and assurances because that's all their passengers can afford to pay for. In the case of flights the Mexican flag carrier was surprisingly similar in cost to traveling on US airlines. Charters and packages offered lower airfares but in general it was not substantially cheaper to travel on the Mexican flag carrier than flying a US carrier. Consolidation in the airline industry along with the loss of Mexicana have changed things over time. Eventually these upheavals made room for new carriers to offer limited service flights at a reduced cost. As US airlines began raising airfares the cost of traveling on a discount Mexican carrier has become cheaper relative to US airfare.

In my view it's difficult to anticipate what sort of labor savings would be realized on an HSR line that was split halfway between two countries at the opposite end of the financial spectrum. Primarily because I'm not aware of any similar projects in recent memory from which to extrapolate. While I do not doubt that Mexico's cheap labor force could provide a substantial cost reduction I also believe it's entirely possible to overestimate the significance of that savings. Mexico's cheap labor pool was of little consequence in preventing the loss of their own national passenger rail network. Reversing that decision is likely to take decades of effort at enormous cost. Not to mention that Mexico has slowly evolved from a sleepy relaxation mecca actively sought by tourists into some sort of civil war being waged by rival drug gangs wielding ever increasing power and brutality.


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## Texan Eagle (Jan 18, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> I've ridden the last train they ran between Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo. That was back in 1991. I would love to see a train go to SAS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, to get off a High Speed Rail and connect to the Tortoise Eagle for a short eight and half hour journey to Dallas or a five hour journey on the Slowset Limited to Houston. And did I mention one of these trains runs only once a day early morning and the other one has an even better frequency of running only once every *alternate* day. How convenient connections!


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## Anderson (Jan 19, 2014)

To be fair, a thought with respect to the security issue: Nuevo Laredo may have a high murder rate, if the station is secure and the tracks properly secured as well, it'll be a very comfortable ride _through_ that place. If they set things up right, the old issue of rocks getting thrown at the train should be a non-issue as well (i.e. elevated tracks, etc.).

Edit: Another point to consider is that given how messed up the border can get at some of those big city crossings, it's quite possible that the train becomes a "shortcut" for those with some cash. An interesting counterpoint to that is that if you've got a "paid" way across the border with shorter lines, border security at the other checkpoints can get even tighter.


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## jimhudson (Jan 19, 2014)

Cliff; In re Nuevo Laredo: Currently the Rail Bridge that carries Freight (and in the Old days when the Aztec Eagle crossed from Laredo on the way to Mexico City) across the Rio Grande is a Single Track Bridge! The Old Rail Station in Nuevo Laredo is on a Bi-Pass SW of Town about 3 Miles from the Rail Bridge! If the proposal to Build a Safe Station and Elevated Tracks is to be Done it will Require LOTS of Money! Nuevo Laredo is Basically a Sewer! I know of no reason why Any American Tourist would want to go here or Monterrey which is a Typical Mexican City, Crowded, Polluted, Dirty, Dangerous , Boiling Hot in the Summer and Cold in the Winter! As Chris said, there are Lots of Flights out of San Antonio to Mexico and Busses, which are Cheap, Leave almost Hourly!

The Scenery between Laredo and monterrey is Mesquite Trees Growing in an Arrid Desert! This Proposal makes No Economic Sense to Me based on what Ive seen and know about this Area of the Border and Mexico, but then I'm not a Rich Venture Capitalist (Read Drug Money )with Connections to the Government Dole!


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## Anderson (Jan 19, 2014)

To counter, if the line isn't going to stop at one of the Laredos, you could move it a few miles along the river. Moving it north of the World Trade Bridge or south towards Rio Bravo wouldn't do much for the distance, and it would likely save on eminent domain/land acquisition costs. I would, by the way, be considering it a given that a new bridge would be needed.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 19, 2014)

That makes sense Cliff, but believe me getting Two Countries to agree on Customs and Immigration Stations, Jointly Built Roads/Bridges, Tracks etc, is like getting an Elephant through the Eye of a Needle! Just look how Long the Canadian/US Merry Go Round for the Adirondack Customs and Immigration Procedures has been "In Negotiation!"

If this happens, as I said, look for it to be maybe the year 2100 when it is a Done Deal!!!


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## cirdan (Jan 20, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Edit: Another point to consider is that given how messed up the border can get at some of those big city crossings, it's quite possible that the train becomes a "shortcut" for those with some cash. An interesting counterpoint to that is that if you've got a "paid" way across the border with shorter lines, border security at the other checkpoints can get even tighter.


 If border formalities on the train can be streamlined.

I don't know what they are planning.

Will the train stop at the border while border guards go through the train? That would kill off the train's speed advantage.

Or will formalities be done at the arrival or departure station (as on Eurostar)? This raises questions concerning intermediate stations and how you separate international from domestic passengers at those stations.

Or will guards walk through the train while it is actually moving (as used to happen in Europe a lot pre-Schengen)? This would depend a lot on the political goodwill to make that actually possible.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 27, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> I know of no reason why Any American Tourist would want to ... Monterrey which is a Typical Mexican City, *Crowded, Polluted, Dirty, Dangerous , Boiling Hot in the Summer and Cold in the Winter! *


To be fair, lots of tourists (as well as Amtrak) go to Chicago, which basically meets that same description. [And I say that with a great deal of appreciation for the Windy City!]

At any rate, I don't think this specific proposal is geared toward tourists.


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## cirdan (Jan 29, 2014)

The large number of low cost buses you mention probably reflect the large number of Mexican immigrants in Texas going home to visit their families etc. Now fast forward this situation 20 years or so and many of those poor and hard working immigrants will have made it into the middle classes, but still have family in Mexico they want to visit, as well as business links etc. Then they won't want to take a low cost bus any more but a high speed train might fit the bill just fine. And if you want such a train to run in 20 years time, it's time to start talking about it now, as that is about the time horizon these big projects have. Thus the idea isn't at all stupid.


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## Anderson (Jan 30, 2014)

Another pair of points to be had:

-I don't know what the Customs lines are like at San Antonio, let alone Monterrey, but based on past experience in Miami and Charlotte it seems possible that there would be a significant market for a direct air-rail transfer if the customs lines were quicker.

-As I hinted at before, border traffic is bad at a lot of the major crossings now. If you get a lot of Mexican-Americans moving into the middle class, the "cost" of spending 30-60 minutes in traffic spikes, and with that comes a demand for faster crossings. Moreover, the number of people with ties to both countries (grandparents, uncles/aunts, etc. on both sides of the border) seems set to steadily increase over time.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 30, 2014)

I remember riding the MoPac trains from St. Louis to Texas back in 1950s and 60s. Even then, there were many Mexican families on the trains in coach, particularly the Texas Eagle which directly connected with the Aztec Eagle in San Antonio. There was a through Sleeper from St. Louis to Mexico City, but coach passengers had to change in San Antonio to the through coaches from San Antonio to Mexico City.


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