# Trains for the Homeless



## birdy (Dec 11, 2008)

New Mexico Railrunner from Duke City to Santa Fe will start in a week. First three MONTHS will be free with state driver's license.

Don't these people know that this will turn the train into a homeless shelter on wheels? Its cold up here! Besides there needs to be at least a little price signal to get a grip on the demand for the service and the price sensitivity of the passengers.

State driver's license: The operators are determined to do all they can to make sure that no tourist ever takes the train. For example, no service on Sundays. None. Nada. Fact is, its an important market.

My final pet peeve: No lounge car. I'm not advocating selling booze you understand, but comfort is a definite competitive advantage for the train that doesn't have too many. (Its a relatively low speed train). The operators are unconsciously using NYC subway as a benchmark. The more they can make the system resemble a NYC subway car at rush hour, the better they have succeeded. Ah well.....


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## George Harris (Dec 11, 2008)

Don't see your point about the lounge car. It is a COMMUTER train.

The run time is not really that bad. 1 hour 21 minutes for a 3 stop train and 1 hour 30 minutes for a 4 stop train. Highway distance 63 miles.

On the other hand, it is not that great, either. Seems a little long for a 79 mph speed limit on a pice of railroad where they should be able to do it for most of the distance. Another thing that does not compute. The extra stop should add no more than 4 minutes, so why does it add 9 minutes?


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## the_traveler (Dec 11, 2008)

And your point about "not for tourists" - *it is a commuter train*! Most commuter trains are timed to run mainly in one direction (into the city) during the morning rush hour and mainly in one direction (out of the city) during the evening rush hour.

As an example, just yesterday I took Amtrak to Wilmington, Delaware. I had to get back to PHL. So I took SEPTA (the commuter train). Between 6:03 AM and IIRC 9:07 AM, there were *6 trains*. During the rest of the day, from WIL-PHL there were that many more trains - or even less! And if I wanted to go from PHL-WIL in the morning, I wouldn't have many choices!

Most commuters are not "tourists" - they actually have a reason to take the train - to get to work! And since most do not work on Sunday, the *commuter* trains do not run on Sundays! And most workers in New Mexico will have a New Mexico driver's license - not an Montana, Michigan or Maine License!

I think that you will find it is similar in most other cities.


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## Neil_M (Dec 11, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> Most commuters are not "tourists" - they actually have a reason to take the train - to get to work! And since most do not work on Sunday, the *commuter* trains do not run on Sundays!


What about the leisure market though? The actual reason for someone using the train is not that important as the fact they actually want to use it full stop. Seeing as the Railrunner goes to Alberqerque, even a service that connected into and out of the SWC might be a good idea....(Even at weekends)


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## George Harris (Dec 11, 2008)

birdy said:


> New Mexico Railrunner from Duke City to Santa Fe will start in a week. First three MONTHS will be free with state driver's license.


So??? What if you do not have a NM drivers license. Given the amount of federal money, that is all of us, in this project, this restriction borders on insult.


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## PetalumaLoco (Dec 11, 2008)

birdy said:


> New Mexico Railrunner from Duke City to Santa Fe will start in a week. First three MONTHS will be free with state driver's license. State driver's license: The operators are determined to do all they can to make sure that no tourist ever takes the train. For example, no service on Sundays. None. Nada. Fact is, its an important market.


Does that mean if you're out of state you can buy a ride in the 1st 3 months?


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## birdy (Dec 12, 2008)

George Harris said:


> birdy said:
> 
> 
> > New Mexico Railrunner from Duke City to Santa Fe will start in a week. First three MONTHS will be free with state driver's license.
> ...



Actually, I don't think there is a dime of federal money in it. No way does this compute with cost benefit standards of federal transportation projects--at least not before economic collapse. And, to be fair, I suppose the tourists will be able to buy a ticket. Still, charge a couple of bucks just to make the point that its not free.

Still, I stand by my criticism about lack of lounge car. Lounge car holds maybe 80 instead of 160. so its still contributing to the load. It attracts ridership. When I mentioned this to potential commuters in my office they were wildly enthusiastic. Remember, its an hour and 15 minute ride, minimum. If the train is too crowded, (partly because of the popularity of the lounge car) add another car. That's the beauty of rail, and success, no?

Santa Fe, with its population of 75,000 is the third most visited tourist town in the US, as I recall. It happens to be a perfectly legitimate part of our economy. If you stop off at a coffee shop on the way to work, you are likely to find yourself mingling with people carrying briefcases and people dressed in ski clothes. That's just the way it is. I believe in paying attention to the market. Remember, they don't get cheap passes. They pay full freight. Anyway, I'm glad the real railroads don't just knock off on Sundays and leave their investment idle.

As to speed, I just don't get it. We aren't talking about real high speed, after all, just moving along at say, 90 mph for 25 or 30 miles during rush hour would make a big difference. The train cost $400 for the 70 mile or so length of the system so It wasn't a shoestring project.


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## AlanB (Dec 12, 2008)

The free rides are to be fair to those in Santa Fe, since everyone in ABQ got a free ride for the first three months down there. There would be howls of protest if they didn't offer the free rides to those living in SF.

As for the lounge car, yes it can carry perhaps 80 although that might be pushing it, but you can't sell those seats. People have to have some place to hang out in the lounge car after making their purchases.

Additionally, almost every commuter RR in the country has now eliminated lounge cars. IIRC, the only hold out in Metro North which runs a bar car, not a lounge car, on a few of their trains. METRA used to run some snack cars, but just this year eliminated all of them. They aren't profitable and they can't be used as coaches. Heck, even Amtrak doesn't run cafe cars on it's Keystone service and on Empire corridor trains that run between Albany and NYC. If Amtrak can't make a profit on a cafe car where people are captive for over 2-1/2 hours, I dont' see a lounge making a profit on a one hour+ run.

As for higher speeds, once you go over 79 MPH, you dramatically increase the costs to get things up and running, and keep it there.


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## George Harris (Dec 12, 2008)

birdy said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > birdy said:
> ...


While I don't have the numbers at hand, I am reasonably sure there is Federal money in the project. If not, it would be a first for a modern transit project. A good bit of the original part and the Nashville commuter system were being developed at the same time, and it appeared that Nashville was doing it on a shoestring, used almost everything, and Albuquerque was going first class with all new almost everything, with the sole advantage that thanks to the legacy of the ATSF very little really had to be done to the track.


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## PetalumaLoco (Dec 12, 2008)

birdy said:


> Santa Fe, with its population of 75,000 is the third most visited tourist town in the US, as I recall.


FYI, Santa Fe didn't make Forbes top 30 visited US cities.


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## gswager (Dec 12, 2008)

birdy said:


> New Mexico Railrunner from Duke City to Santa Fe will start in a week. First three MONTHS will be free with state driver's license.


After reading on NMRailRunner's website, only Santa Feans and Santa Fe county residents get free rides for the first three months, not any NM residents.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 13, 2008)

Are the homeless eligible for drivers' licenses? I always thought drivers' licenses normally listed a home address...


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## GG-1 (Dec 13, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Are the homeless eligible for drivers' licenses? I always thought drivers' licenses normally listed a home address...


Isn't the 3rd tree at park square an address  And Free Service is SOP for local residents getting new service.

Aloha


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 14, 2008)

The bar cars do actually make a profit for Metro North, as do the bar carts that run on various MNR and LIRR lines.

Bar car service does not make sense for commuters, but a snack car does. There would be some value in offering breakfast on in bound trips and light dinners on outbound trips.


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## Guest_birdy_* (Dec 29, 2008)

Well, the results are in. Railrunner has been overwhelmed with free-riders. although not the homeless. the trial period has been quiety reduced to end next weekend. The speed is shaping up to be acceptable, and a preferred way to get to the airport, especially in inclement weather. Many delays, without any discernible reason. Hope its new service stuff. Speed is apparently acceptable to users, being about 15 minutes longer than a car ride in good conditions.

As to commuter vs. tourist debate, the apparent (I haven't been willing to stand on a rail platform in freezing cold and snow in order to save a lousy 8 bucks, to find out) fact is, that the route is quite spectacular, with a route that follows the river, passes through two Indian pueblos and a scenic canyon up the La Bajada escarfment. The railroad simply blew off service on Dec. 26, apparently on the theory that, well, they would like to take the day off. Not exactly the Long Island Rail Road.

The great beauty of the ride guarantees that the train will be a tourist rail in spite of the demands of the command and control transportation planners that it not be. A nice problem to have. Again, I argue that a nice, retro- (think Super Chief) themed lounge car would be a hit with passengers, commuters even more than tourists, would greatly encourage ridership and would contribute to the glossy magazine spreads that will be written about the line in national magazines twice or three times per year. A ticket, especially a non-discounted ticket sold to a tourist, is still a ticket.

I expect you are right about federal money. they added some lights and gates to the crossings, and those almost always involve federal money. But largely, this is a state funded project.


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## George Harris (Dec 29, 2008)

Guest_birdy_* said:


> The great beauty of the ride guarantees that the train will be a tourist rail in spite of the demands of the command and control transportation planners that it not be. A nice problem to have. Again, I argue that a nice, retro- (think Super Chief) themed lounge car would be a hit with passengers, commuters even more than tourists, would greatly encourage ridership and would contribute to the glossy magazine spreads that will be written about the line in national magazines twice or three times per year. A ticket, especially a non-discounted ticket sold to a tourist, is still a ticket.


I have always had a problem with "Transportation Planners" and to a fair extent with planners in general. The biggest problem with transortation planners is that they for the most part tend to be of an elitist mindset and to not be, ever, users of the systems they plan. If these poeple were required to get out and regularly USE public transportation, if they could do it with some semblance of an open mind, it could give them a sufficiently different perspective so that a lot of the current and recent past idiocies in public transportation would begin to dissapear.

I would think tourist ridership they would encourage.

Maybe some of these guys, and gals as applicible, should visit San Francisco and go to the tourist sites, skipping the bar scene, and they would find that there are a lot of tourists, including foreign tourists running with minimal English, riding around the city on the public transportation systems.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2008)

George Harris said:


> Guest_birdy_* said:
> 
> 
> > The great beauty of the ride guarantees that the train will be a tourist rail in spite of the demands of the command and control transportation planners that it not be. A nice problem to have. Again, I argue that a nice, retro- (think Super Chief) themed lounge car would be a hit with passengers, commuters even more than tourists, would greatly encourage ridership and would contribute to the glossy magazine spreads that will be written about the line in national magazines twice or three times per year. A ticket, especially a non-discounted ticket sold to a tourist, is still a ticket.
> ...


You got that right. I talked to an Albuquerque based commuter today. She said that she would have to take the 5:30 a.m. train because that was the only way to beat the intractable problem of parking. I pointed out that if you leave Albuquerque at 5:30, there is no traffic problem on the commute. Transportation planners apparently take the position that the "idea" of train travel is to get people out of their cars. Therefore, commuters who expect parking to be reliably available at the station should be ignored in favor of people who are willing to ride bicycles at night during snow storms, I guess.

Transportation planners rigged the system so that commuters either arrive nearly a half hour early or a half hour late to work, creating additional problems. All that will change through hard experience, though.

Overall, this will be the best $400 mil the state has invested in a very long time.


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## George Harris (Dec 30, 2008)

Guest said:


> She said that she would have to take the 5:30 a.m. train because that was the only way to beat the intractable problem of parking. I pointed out that if you leave Albuquerque at 5:30, there is no traffic problem on the commute. Transportation planners apparently take the position that the "idea" of train travel is to get people out of their cars. Therefore, commuters who expect parking to be reliably available at the station should be ignored in favor of people who are willing to ride bicycles at night during snow storms, I guess.


Absolutely classic! I worked on Washington Metro design/construction in the 1970's. About mid way through that period (remember, inflation was going bezerk then) they decided they had to do a number of things to save money. One of them was, Shrink the sizes of the parking lots at the outlying stations. As a result, almost immediately on opening they were full by shortly after 6:00am if not earlier. There was a lot of archtectual gingerbreading in the stations, but somehow, none of that was a candidate for being cut, but the down escalators between mezzanine and platform turned to stairs. In the overall scope of the project, both parkning lot size and escalator to stair conversion were nickel and dime savings.


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## GG-1 (Dec 30, 2008)

George Harris said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > She said that she would have to take the 5:30 a.m. train because that was the only way to beat the intractable problem of parking. I pointed out that if you leave Albuquerque at 5:30, there is no traffic problem on the commute. Transportation planners apparently take the position that the "idea" of train travel is to get people out of their cars. Therefore, commuters who expect parking to be reliably available at the station should be ignored in favor of people who are willing to ride bicycles at night during snow storms, I guess.
> ...


Aloha George

But just think how can Politicians Dazzle us, by saving real money when they can show us the brilliance of saving nickels and dimes since they shine where paper doesn't. :lol:


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