# 1st Class Bus Lines



## TVRM610 (Jan 5, 2015)

I'm very interested in the future of 1st class aka "Luxury" bus lines. I currently only know of 3,

Red Coach USA in Florida http://redcoachusa.com - the "First Class" busses they operate offer 2-1 seating, only 27 seats per coach, and of course free wifi. Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, etc.

Vonlane in Texas http://vonlane.com - operates only first class busses that offer 2-1 seating, only 16 seats plus a 6 seat conference room per coach, and an attendnant serving snacks. Currently operating from Dallas to Austin only.

Vamoose in the NE http://vamoosebus.com - the "Vamoose Gold" offers 2-1 seating, 36 seats per coach. Operates NYC south to Lorton VA.

Does anyone know of any others in the USA?


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## metrolinecoach111 (Jan 5, 2015)

TVRM610 said:


> I'm very interested in the future of 1st class aka "Luxury" bus lines. I currently only know of 3,
> 
> Red Coach USA in Florida http://redcoachusa.com - the "First Class" busses they operate offer 2-1 seating, only 27 seats per coach, and of course free wifi. Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, etc.
> 
> ...


Great topic! Here are a few others - both intercity and regional:

Limoliner (NY-Boston) http://limoliner.com: offers a first class 28-seat coach with 2-1 seating and an attendant

C&J (NY-MA-NH) http://dartmouthcoach.com/index.php/new-york-service.html: offers a first class 30-seat coach with 2-1 seating, no attendant

Dartmouth Coach (NY-NH) http://dartmouthcoach.com/index.php/new-york-service.html: offers a first class 28-seat coach with 2-1 seating, no attendant

Campus-2-Campus (NY State) http://transportation.fs.cornell.edu/coach/; Offers a first class 28-seat coach with 2-1 seating, no attendant, operated exclusively for the Cornell University community to connect their NYC and Ithaca, NY campuses

Royal Sprinter (NY-DC) http://royalsprinter.com; offers a 7-seat sprinter van equipped with personalized entertainment options and angled seating for more leg and arm room

Hampton Ambassador (NY-LI) http://www.hamptonambassador.com/: offers a first class 28-seat coach with 2-1 seating and an attendant

LuxBus America (LA-LV): http://www.luxbusamerica.com/: don't know how many seats, but offers many of the same amenities as the other carriers.

I hope this helps.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 5, 2015)

great list metroline!

I found LuxBus online but didn't include them in my list since I really don't know if they are standard busses with snacks or truly 1st class. Either way they deserve a mention.

LimoLiner is a great find! That's the exact type of service I'm most interested in.


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## metrolinecoach111 (Jan 5, 2015)

Glad I could help.

Limoliner helped revive this concept in 2002-2003 (first class service, attendant on board). It was first started in this country with Continental Trailways in the 50s and 60s - might be worth a Google search to learn more if you're interested.

You might also be interested in looking up Red Arrow in Canada. They led this new round of enchanced intercity motorcoach operations in the late 70s before Hampton Jitney created Ambassador in the 90s.

Also, here is a NY Times article about the rise of said services published last year: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/26/business/for-harried-travelers-the-coach-awaits.html?_r=0

Just curious - any particular reason why you're interested?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 5, 2015)

LuxBusAmerica doesn't really count because they simply use regular H3-45s with the regular 56-seat configuration. They have less legroom than Greyhound, LOL.

Most of these luxury bus lines in North America use H3-45s. Red Arrow also uses H3-45s. They're good coaches with long driving range, albeit very tall and are thus not very fast and relatively easy to roll over, according to drivers. The good thing about H3-45s is that that have a flat floor all the way, allowing 2-1 seating to be installed without a custom floor. The MCIs and Van Hools have a depressed aisle in the front, so they must have an equal amount of seating on both sides of the aisle.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 5, 2015)

Thanks Swadian... yeah 56 seats isn't luxury! ha.

metroline, to answer your question I travel alot and while train travel is my first choice, sometimes it's not available. I do use Mega Bus & Jefferson Lines and have had fine experiences, Greyhound I will use when necessary... but I really like the idea of First Class Bus lines.

I work in the live entertainment industry (mostly as Lighting Designer..) so I have ridden many many Entertainer Coaches and now how comfortable bus travel can be... so that's part of it as well.

Add in my fascination and support of public transit in general and here we are!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 5, 2015)

Aw yeah, those Entertainer coaches like the H3-45 VIP! I'm sure you are very familiar with any H3-45.

How's Jefferson? I've heard good and bad about them. Their Pitbulls (D4505s) seem better than Greyhound Pitbulls but I don't like that model in general. I'm pissed at Greyhound's Pitbulls but I know Megabus, overall, has worse drivers and worse equipment (I really don't like riding those cramped double-deckers).

That being said, since you're in Chattanooga, you probably get some single-deck Megabuses, which I could see myself riding again.


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## rickycourtney (Jan 5, 2015)

Pitbulls? You're just making stuff up now.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 5, 2015)

Actually almost all of the entertainers I've been on recently are XLII's... that's really all I see being used by entertainment now. I've been on a good number of XL's and one company I used to work for had an old MCI... it rode quite nice as well. years ago one of the artists on a tour had a leased H3 and I would go hang out with their crew now and then, I never rode on it but I always liked the feel of it.

Jefferson equipment wise is a gamble, older models in all different shape it seems. The drivers have all been very good though, and the Jefferson stations in Fargo and Siox Falls are simple but nice enough with free wifi and they feel safe. I would compare them to small town Amtrak stations, not plush, but they get the job done.

We have the double-decker Mega Bus here as well... I actually don't mind Mega Bus... I've only had one bad driver so far (Chicago to Nashville...) but I would much rather have a more luxurious option to megabus.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 5, 2015)

Yeah, I made that Pitbull up. But from the front, D4505 looks just like a pitbull. People were going around calling it an "angry mutt" on GTE, so I thought I ought to call it a Pitbull to have some fun.

Here's a pitbull: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12804434813/in/photolist-5kyjai-hyDYP2-h2R8kJ-6wNMjV-hsT43c-gZv83n-5SamQd-hyEDuY-fguxyR-dH2Uou-iVcS1F-cQpiLU-bzTqGi-kvu5nt-2gAqvx-kvucGi-bgBEU-5dyHky-kvtvy4-4zH13s-4EuyyP-d3G8hq-rwhLn-bWPN7T-gGZTeV-a9t35G-hFHSXT-5Xfvfw-aWnn9X-dUkPvz-55hD2E-eeBywG-d3G84N-7YGBMY-7A5Xsf-fvE3RC-9gPuJu-hai22s-8SGKC-efgYmE-dfCuDi-5Xfv8W-5XfvkG-ieGdfb-bpjha-axB49R-kvtTNT-7WFxew-hDQW1q-cuKxQQ. 

And here's a pitbull: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15716579997/sizes/c/.



Say, does Jefferson still have their old LeMirage XLs?


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## rickycourtney (Jan 6, 2015)

I find the idea of First Class bus lines incredibly interesting.

I know they have popular in other countries for decades, but I think this is the right time to introduce them to the US. Numerous studies have shown that millennials like myself are comfortable living without a car and want other transportation options.

I think the Pacific Northwest would be a great place to start one of these First Class bus lines... I just wish I had the money to do it myself!

Amtrak Cascades offers business class seating which is frequently sold out, showing that there is demand for this higher level of public transportation and frankly the product leaves much to be desired (while the seats are nicer, there's no onboard attendant, the trip takes 4 hours and the only real perk is a $3 off coupon to the cafe).

The other competition is Alaska who operates an air shuttle between Seattle and Portland. The flight itself is fast, but they've cut back on a lot of the perks, except that shuttle customers still get free wine/beer onboard and get to use the express security lines. Problem is that both SEA and PDX are on the outside of town, 25 minutes by cab or 45 minutes by light rail, wiping out a lot of the time savings.

If you emulated the Vonlane business model between Portland and Seattle you'd provide:

* A much higher level of service.

* At competitive speeds downtown-to-downtown. (Amtrak: 4 hrs; Air Shuttle: 3 hrs; Bus: 3.5 hrs, including pad time for traffic)

* At competitive prices (Amtrak: $50-70; Air Shuttle: $75-200; Bus: $100)

Here's the thing... I used Portland-Seattle as an example but the same would be true about almost any two large cities located about 3-4 hours apart by road (which is really the goldilocks distance for intercity bus travel).


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2015)

Sounds like an excellent idea Ricky!

But what about the traffic on I-5, its usually pretty bad most of the time based on my experience driving? And when the Tacoma by pass is finished and the rough tracks that now exist on parts of this route are upgraded the times could come down as much as an hour on this route!

Personally for close to the same fare ( of course Bolt Bus has cheaper deals) I'd just as soon ride a Cascade Train, I find Talgo Business Class and the Bistro Cars (and even Coach if not jam packed) a nice way to travel this route!


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## rickycourtney (Jan 6, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Sounds like an excellent idea Ricky!
> 
> But what about the traffic on I-5, its usually pretty bad most of the time based on my experience driving? And when the Tacoma by pass is finished and the rough tracks that now exist on parts of this route are upgraded the times could come down as much as an hour on this route!
> 
> Personally for close to the same fare ( of course Bolt Bus has cheaper deals) I'd just as soon ride a Cascade Train, I find Talgo Business Class and the Bistro Cars (and even Coach if not jam packed) a nice way to travel this route!


My 3.5 hour quote includes packing for traffic. The trip with no traffic takes only 2hrs, 45min (which almost never happens).
The cascades is very comfortable but the service is nowhere to the level of some of these first class bus lines. While $3 off in the bistro is nice, an attendant serving complementary refreshments and meals is nicer.

Also, $100 is just a suggested price point (the one Vonlane uses) but could be lower to better compete. But if this is truly business travel, professionals will be able to be productive for several hours and bill clients for the time.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 6, 2015)

In the PNW, I would agree, but I really hope BoltBus gets more comfortable seats sometime soon. Most of their equipment are from 2008-2009 and the seats are already falling apart. Greyhound's own blue buses out of Seattle, made in Mexico with Spanish seats, are more comfortable but are slower for about the same price. As far as the PNW goes, Greyhound should make BoltBus more comfortable to the standard of their Spanish seats while starting Greyhound Express and speeding up service.

Another great need for express service is on the I-5 corridor further south going through Medford along the old SP Siskiyou Route, which is not served by Amtrak.

If someone does start a First Class bus line (it's not even that expensive if one can take loans and/or buy good pre-owned equipment to upgrade), the best distance should be shorter distances. Long-distance First Class bus lines don't work in the US because they will cost as much as flying and will take much longer. That's why I'm against any sleeper buses in the US, not to mention safety problems, especially in rollover accidents.

People have suggested San Francisco-Los Angeles overnight sleeper buses for business travelers, but if you think about it, get to airport, check in, fly, land, get to downtown is going to be, really, about 5 hour max. Most business travelers do this in the early morning or the late evening, more of the latter. Would they really mind saving a bit of daytime to ride a sleeper bus of questionable safety? After all, dozens of people have died in individual sleeper bus accidents abroad. Would it really be better in the US? And, with worldwide allied Frequent Flyer programs, can a sleeper bus line apply such programs on a scale nearly big enough to deter Platinum- and Gold-member flyers?

I do like the idea of comfortable overnight buses, but it has to be much cheaper than flying for people to consider it yet comfortable enough to sleep all right and safe enough to meet regulations, meaning not sleeper buses or luxury buses, but simply more comfortable regular seated motorcoaches. Business travelers wouldn't use it, but leisure travelers would to get a full day of action at either end. Over 200 miles, business travelers shouldn't be expected to do anything but fly, unless there's fast sleeper train service which is rare in the US and Canada.

My opinion of longer bus rides over 200 miles is that they should be more comfortable than a regular bus but not to the level of a luxury bus, and still cheap enough to be the cheapest mode of transport. Under 200 miles, the options balloon into all kinds of stuff from dirt-cheap Megabus Van Hools up to Vonlane luxury H3-45 High-Caps, but under 200 miles is going to get saturated sooner or later whereas over 200 miles offer possibilities for expansion with minimal other buses competing.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks, sounds like it would work then!

Would it include Lux buses to/ from Vancouver, BC which is a huge tourist market?


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## jebr (Jan 6, 2015)

I would love some sort of overnight sleeper service MSP - CHI. I don't know how many other markets are in that 8-10 hour range (SFO - LAX being another one that I can think of) but I think there'd be some market for leisure travelers for a true overnight sleeper service.

Sleeper service is done in the UK, so I'd be comfortable with it. I don't get why it shouldn't at least be tried...I'd be surprised if there was no market for it.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 6, 2015)

Like I said, it would be too expensive to compete with planes and too dangerous to comply with regulations. The new regulations call for three-point seat belts and containment in between the seats in the event of an accident. Sleeping berths cannot achieve that so they can't even meet safety regulations to get off the ground.

Most people would rather just fly, even leisure travelers. Only people that want to save money will ride the bus overnight. Saving money is a good idea, of course, because it means you can take more trips with your yearly budget. And running overnight is also a good idea because it saves vacation days. Saving time and money is a good idea for overnight buses. Saving only time but not saving money, as in with sleeper buses, would be best done with a plane.

People that want to save money but have plenty of time to spare would most likely drive their own vehicle or ride a daytime bus.

The passenger that could be riding a luxury Chicago-Minneapolis sleeper _bus _for $200, would he not rather fly for the same price and get there faster? If you're a leisure traveler, you'll likely book in advance and get a lower fare for the plane anyway. If you really wanted to save money without skimping too much on comfort, you would ride a nice seated bus, which, unfortunately, doesn't really exist. Business traveler would fly anyway unless maybe if there's a sleeper train. Sleeper works with trains because trains don't have nearly as many rollover accidents as buses do.

Right now, what _doesn't_ exist is a nice bus service that doesn't have a luxury price tag. That's what's really needed right now. There's luxury seated buses with luxury price tags and the sleeper buses wouldn't be anything different except more dangerous. There's Greyhound which is cheap and is sometimes great, other times $hit. There's Megabus which is dirt-cheap and has service to match. The gap between Greyhound and Vonlane is too big. We need something like the old GMC Scenicruiser instead of something like a Volvo sleeper.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 6, 2015)

having slept on ALOT of entertainers I really don't see business travelers using it. If you built some sort of slumbercoach roomette thing I suppose it might be possible to get 10 private rooms? but that would be pushing it and the rooms would be tiny.

Entertainer coaches of course just have bunks, for one you can't expect the general public to climb into a top bunk.. and who's really gonna be willing to pay for it?

An overnight luxury service would need to be like Vonlane seating (good pitch) and provide blanket, pillow, eye mask, ear plugs etc.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 7, 2015)

Yeah, it would need Vonlane-style seating to pass safety regulations. Bunk beds sure don't pass. It would need basically airline lie-flat seats which would drive the price over airfare. Business travelers wouldn't use it much (they'd rather fly there, fly back, and sleep at home), leisure travelers would use it even less (too expensive).


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## TVRM610 (Jan 7, 2015)

For what it's worth MegaBus operates sleeper service out of London... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311262/Megabus-launch-bus-beds-travel-London-Scotland-15.html the article says the bus has 42 bunks...

I still agree Swadian... Vonlane style is the way to go for overnight... but if a Megabus style deal started maybe it would work on the right route.


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## rickycourtney (Jan 7, 2015)

Right I think our last conversation regarding sleeper buses came right after the launch of the Megabus Gold sleeper buses in the UK.

The business model works on paper. You can be in your destination city right at the beginning of the day without having to wake up early for the first flight or having to pay for a hotel in your destination city. I think the safety concerns are overblown. You can use seatbelt webbing nets (like Amtrak sleepers) to restrain people in an accident or from rolling out of bed while sleeping (a much more likely scenario).

But there are a lot of things still to consider...


You need to have an ample amount single bunks (I'm NOT sleeping next to a stranger for 7 hours).
Drivers would need to be taught to drive "gently" and given additional pad time so they can drive slower. I wouldn't want to be woken up all night as the driver hits the gas, stomps on the brakes (creating that lovely jake brake sound) and swerves left to right to pass every semi and RV on the highway.
How do dozens of passengers to "freshen up" before their morning meeting? Even if you don't offer a shower (which might be a deal breaker for many) you still have to have at least 2 lavatories with running water and room to change clothes.
If you offer breakfast you need an attendant and a galley installed on the bus.
Buses that only run overnight schedules sit idle all day unless you do like Megabus Gold and offer upgraded daytime service (and hope that those converted bunks are comfortable).
You still need to get pass the "bus bias" (which might be hard when you're asked to sleep amongst dozens of strangers).


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 7, 2015)

There's a few problems I see with Megabus Gold. I get that there's not nearly the kind of "bus bias" in the UK as in over here, but there's frequent, high-quality rail service from London to Glasgow and that bus is a Van Hool. One reason it makes money is probably because it's a double-decker, but lack of luggage space and headroom could turn people off. Sleeper trains are on the way out in Europe against daytime HSR. For the buses, it's a niche market, and a really tight one at that. It's probably more like a shrunken sleeper train covering the leftover market, if you think of it that way.

The good thing about Megabus is that they also operate plenty of regular daytime services. I could see them or Greyhound doing this in the US in a few tight niches, but not a new startup company focusing on sleeper service. The market is simply too narrow and the potential routes are spread out, meaning one can't really create a network. Megabus can have a spread out network because they're backed by Coach USA.

As far as sleeping and ride quality goes, again, I find the bus, driver, scheduling, and road conditions to be more important than speed. When I rode Greyhound overnight from Los Angeles to Sacramento, I slept well because it was a smooth-riding vehicle with comfortable seats and an excellent, courteous driver. I only woke up when the bus stopped in Avenal for a break. Also, I-5 is very smooth.

When I rode Reno to Salt Lake City and back overnight, the driver was another great guy, but the bus had horrible seats and made more stops. Both vehicles rode smooth, but I couldn't sleep well at all and ended up with a headache. Of course, it would have been worse if the road conditions were bad or if the vehicle had a rough ride. I find the seats to be most important overall, followed by the ride quality. Low chance of slamming on the brakes at night though, because there's so little traffic. I like having a little bit of engine sound instead of just the HVAC blowing sound.


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