# National Dining Car Specials/New Menus (April '17)



## KmH (Apr 12, 2017)

I'm booked next month for a 5000 mile Amtrak train ride.

What have they recently been offering as Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner specials.

Do I remember right that they often make menu changes at the end of April?


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## KnightRail (Apr 12, 2017)

KmH said:


> Do I remember right that they often make menu changes at the end of April?


Actually, today is the day.


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## seat38a (Apr 12, 2017)

All of the new info are up on http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/. Not sure about the taste but the items seem to be an improvement. Now they have shrimp and steak entree. The lemon tart looks good in the photo.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 12, 2017)

seat38a said:


> All of the new info are up on http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/. Not sure about the taste but the items seem to be an improvement. Now they have shrimp and steak entree. The lemon tart looks good in the photo.


 I just checked out the items for my next Amtrak journey on the Empire Builder and am very pleased with what I saw being offered. The photos of the items looked good. And, I am really glad that Railroad French Toast will still be offered for Breakfast. I agree that the lemon tart is a dessert that ought to be tried.


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## Palmland (Apr 12, 2017)

Is the link to menus current? It shows the Signature Steak on the Silver Star- which has only a cafe car.


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## niemi24s (Apr 12, 2017)

It appears (based on the three I checked) the menus here have also been updated this month... https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241305537990 ...and there's no menu shown for the Silver Star.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 12, 2017)

These look like some of the best menu offerings in several years-just hope the quality of the chow is as good as the description.


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## Blackwolf (Apr 13, 2017)

What a difference a month makes. Wish I had this menu back in March, looks like substantial improvement over the old menu.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 13, 2017)

Looks like the Chef Inspired meals are making a comeback of some sort. If they're as tasty as the ones that were previously featured in years past this could be a good sign for improving culinary standards in the future.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2017)

Oh my God that looks good...I'm actually suddenly tempted to run up to DC and back to try out one of these menu items. (If the Meteor hadn't been sold out SB for today as of last night, I would've likely been on it today on a "stress relief run").

The "Field and Sea" combo not only sounds delicious, it's also the cagiest accounting gambit I've seen from F&B since...pretty much ever. I doubt the dish costs $11 more than "just" the steak but they've just managed to probably pull another few hundred grand or so out of the sleeper account.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 13, 2017)

I was starting to develop a hankering for some rail related travel and this change in the menu might be enough to get me off high center. The new menus aren't perfect. Most of the meals are duplicated across routes, most of the meat is still precooked, and several items that would benefit massively from fresh preparation (such as salsa and guacamole) are stocked as generic pantry knockoffs instead. That being said, the previous chef inspired meals were precooked and reheated and still tasted good anyway. I managed to find several items that looked interesting enough to try on my next trip. No guarantee I'll like any of them but I'm willing to give them a shot.


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## Larry H. (Apr 13, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I was starting to develop a hankering for some rail related travel and this change in the menu might be enough to get me off high center. The new menus aren't perfect. Most of the meals are duplicated across routes, most of the meat is still precooked, and several items that would benefit massively from fresh preparation (such as salsa and guacamole) are stocked as generic pantry knockoffs instead. That being said, the previous chef inspired meals were precooked and reheated and still tasted good anyway. I managed to find several items that looked interesting enough to try on my next trip. No guarantee I'll like any of them but I'm willing to give them a shot.



Agreed, the food service is one of the most enjoyable parts of the trips so long as its made decently. I hope they get their acts together. I wrote my congressman the other day about the proposed elimination of the long distance trains an mentioned the folly of having almost no decent food service on board.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2017)

From my (vegetarian) point of view, my only complaint is that the two meatless dinner options - the "vegetarian Asian noodle bowl" and the "healthy choice: Chinese rice noodles with veggies & cashew sauce" - look very similar. If they're going to drop from stocking two "healthy choices" to just one, you'd think they could pick one that offers some contrast to what's already on the menu.

Other than that, it looks good. The southwestern lunch salad looks nice and substantial, and I like the option to get guacamole on the veggie burger. I'm looking forward to trying these on my trip on the EB in a few weeks.

The $36 surf and turf worries me, though - I hope we don't see too much of a spike in sleeper fares to cover this "cost."


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## denmarks (Apr 13, 2017)

I just looked at the new menu for the CZ menu and it looks good. I just want to verify what comes with a sleeper.

I assume you can have any single entree on the menu. That includes the new Field & Sea Combo for $36. Dinner comes with a salad and roll. You can order a single side for breakfast.

Do you also get any desert and a beverage (non alcoholic)?

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/331/568/California-Zephyr-Dining-Car-Menu-0417.pdf


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2017)

Yep, your non-alchol beverages, including juice,coffee and a breakfast meat with Breakfast are included, as are non-alcohol drinks and deserts with Lunch and Dinner meals.


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## KmH (Apr 13, 2017)

In the past we had to ask for the salad, and the salad is also included at lunch.

At breakfast I always get orange juice *&* coffee.

At lunch I have sometimes had 2 servings of soft drinks.


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## dlagrua (Apr 13, 2017)

A step in the right direction. As Wick Moorman has said the food (dining car) is an integral part of the service. Now please bring back the ice in the sleepers and the 50 cent rose on the dinner table. BTW,anyone know when those long delayed dining cars will be delivered?


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## JayPea (Apr 13, 2017)

Oh boy.  There IS ice in the sleepers, for crying out loud in the morning. All you have to do is ask the SCA. And I have had occasions, mainly on the eastern sleepers, where ice was out and available. No need to ask.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 13, 2017)

Step in the wrong direction to me... the pasta dish is no longer vegetarian so that's one less veggie option. There is no actual fish entree... just the Shrimp. Lots of people eat fish but not shellfish for a variety of reasons. I'm not really sure what I would order on the new menu.... honestly I would probably get a veggie burger for dinner, I may try the shrimp but I doubt I will think it's good enough to want to order it again.

On the previous menu the Cod and the Pasta were pretty good.


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## bretton88 (Apr 14, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Step in the wrong direction to me... the pasta dish is no longer vegetarian so that's one less veggie option. There is no actual fish entree... just the Shrimp. Lots of people eat fish but not shellfish for a variety of reasons. I'm not really sure what I would order on the new menu.... honestly I would probably get a veggie burger for dinner, I may try the shrimp but I doubt I will think it's good enough to want to order it again.
> 
> On the previous menu the Cod and the Pasta were pretty good.


I may not love surf n turf, but it's definitely seen as a higher end option, so it's definitely an overall step in the right direction.
Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## RSG (Apr 14, 2017)

JayPea said:


> Oh boy.  There IS ice in the sleepers, for crying out loud in the morning. All you have to do is ask the SCA. And I have had occasions, mainly on the eastern sleepers, where ice was out and available. No need to ask.


Only on the Viewliners is ice available as a self-serve option. Presumably this is because it they have a wet bar set up where it can be kept in a semi-secure environment and is therefore not "exposed" as health codes would define it. On the Superliners it remains a beg-for ask-for item, subject to the whim and memory of the sleeper attendant.


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## dlagrua (Apr 14, 2017)

JayPea said:


> Oh boy.  There IS ice in the sleepers, for crying out loud in the morning. All you have to do is ask the SCA. And I have had occasions, mainly on the eastern sleepers, where ice was out and available. No need to ask.


An optimistic view is always appreciated but we were unable to get ice on Amtrak for at least the last three years. We were able to get it only once on a Cardinal trip. Drinking warm orange juice is just not the way to go. Yes you can ask the SCA and they are usually good about it but if he/she is busy making up the rooms, you will enjoy a nice warm juice. We now take a cooler with us on all trips. If we have a layover in CHI before the next train leaves we walk 5 blocks to Greektown and pick up a bag of ice at Mariano's to refill. Ice costs very little to supply. Denying ice to sleeper passengers is not the way to increase profit.


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## niemi24s (Apr 14, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> Drinking warm orange juice is just not the way to go.


Maybe for you, but that's exactly the way I prefer it. Like it had just come off the tree.

But it _was_ refreshing to see a thread about Amtrak food go for 12 whole posts before the negatives started to creep in.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 14, 2017)

bretton88 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Step in the wrong direction to me... the pasta dish is no longer vegetarian so that's one less veggie option. There is no actual fish entree... just the Shrimp. Lots of people eat fish but not shellfish for a variety of reasons. I'm not really sure what I would order on the new menu.... honestly I would probably get a veggie burger for dinner, I may try the shrimp but I doubt I will think it's good enough to want to order it again.
> ...


I would hesitate to call something offered by Golden Corral and Denny's as a "Higher End Option."

But that really wasn't my point... It's fine if they want to offer shrimp as an entree... but don't make that the only seafood entree and then make the pasta dish non-vegetarian as well. That's extremely limiting for many diets. As long as the Veggie Burger and Entree Salad are available for Dinner service everyone should be able to get something to satisfy though.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 14, 2017)

I have always wondered if a variable in amenities availability is the attitude of the person requesting it. I always get what I ask for, and I always give tips, when I give them, when I disembark, so that's not part of it.


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## niemi24s (Apr 14, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would hesitate to call something offered by Golden Corral and Denny's as a "Higher End Option."


I wouldn't hesitate at all. Never had anything I'd even call mediocre at either place. But then, I'm not a food snoot.


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## seat38a (Apr 14, 2017)

I swear, whatever Amtrak does to the menu the whining and bitching seems to never stop.


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## JayPea (Apr 14, 2017)

seat38a said:


> I swear, whatever Amtrak does to the menu the whining and bitching seems to never stop.


Some people aren't happy unless they're not happy.  I for one am looking forward to the new menu and will get a chance to try out the EB menu next month. Ironically one of the first meals I will be able to partake of is the boxed meal, a very good offering, as I will be departing from Portland.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 14, 2017)

seat38a said:


> I swear, whatever Amtrak does to the menu the whining and bitching seems to never stop.


hmm... mentioning how the new menu is more limiting for those of us on special diets is whining and b*ing?

I was pretty content with the past menu.. I would mostly have the Cod for dinner, and if I got tired of it, or they were out, the Vegetarian Pasta Dish was a decent choice.


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## Maglev (Apr 14, 2017)

I think this new menu is mostly an improvement in terms of more diverse selections for dinner, although it does seem to have limited offerings for those with special diets. The return of Rail Road French Toast was much needed. I regret the demise of the spinach salad--spinach is so much more nutritious than romaine lettuce. The Chicken, Bacon and Cheese Quesadilla was the lunch "special" offered on the _Empire Builder _in January--I thought this was an extremely unimaginative culinary creation, and I'm surprised it is now on the menu.


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## Bjartmarr (Apr 14, 2017)

Looks like they fired their proofreader. What is "smoke-died chipotle"? And are they calling them "first class meal packages" now?


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## Rockymtnchris (Apr 14, 2017)

RE: ice on LD trains...

My diabetic father has been able to get ice on Amtrak by telling staff he needed it for the mini cooler where he stores his insulin. Perhaps someone could try this approach should they run into a reluctant attendant. For my CZ coach trip next week I'm freezing a few bottles of Aarohead water and taking along an insulated "sippy" cup and several flavourings to put in the water I'm keeping in a small insulated collapsible. This should give me cold beverages all the way from Denver to Sacramento. If I want carbonation, I'll drop a tablet of Alka Seltzer into my mixtures.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 14, 2017)

Rockymtnchris said:


> RE: ice on LD trains...
> 
> My diabetic father has been able to get ice on Amtrak by telling staff he needed it for the mini cooler where he stores his insulin. Perhaps someone could try this approach should they run into a reluctant attendant. For my CZ coach trip next week I'm freezing a few bottles of Aarohead water and taking along an insulated "sippy" cup and several flavourings to put in the water I'm keeping in a small insulated collapsible. This should give me cold beverages all the way from Denver to Sacramento. If I want carbonation, I'll drop a tablet of Alka Seltzer into my mixtures.


I don't like your suggestion about lying to get ice. If people do this often enough and the SCAs catch in it could mean they'll give diabetics a hard time about getting ice. It equates to people with fake service dogs making it harder for people with real service dogs.


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## Rockymtnchris (Apr 14, 2017)

That's exactly why I'm freezing some of my bottles, so I have plenty of ice and cold drinks without imposing on anyone. The only reason I mentioned the diabetic situation at all would be for someone who was up against uncooperative staff _after_ properly making a request for ice. BTW, I happen to work in an industry where we have to deal with the housepet=service/companion animal on an everyday basis and are no longer allowed to question per ADA.


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## A Voice (Apr 14, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > I would hesitate to call something offered by Golden Corral and Denny's as a "Higher End Option."
> ...


I particularly like the portion sizes at Golden Corral. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > I swear, whatever Amtrak does to the menu the whining and bitching seems to never stop.
> ...


No, not at all. However, the menu selection on a train is necessarily going to be limited, and while you can offer something for everyone, changing one item often comes at the expense of another. Naturally, some people (and some tastes and diets) are going to prefer certain menu variations over others.


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## niemi24s (Apr 14, 2017)

From your blather in Post #34 it seems you have missed AmtrakBlue's point. To recap, the following....



Rockymtnchris said:


> My diabetic father has been able to get ice on Amtrak by telling staff he needed it for the mini cooler where he stores his insulin. Perhaps someone could try this approach should they run into a reluctant attendant.


...advocates lying to an SCA just so you can get some ice to keep your juice box cool. Totally unacceptable.


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## Chessie (Apr 14, 2017)

So ice is not always obtainable?


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## PVD (Apr 14, 2017)

Apparently some people have had trouble at some times because it wasn't immediately available, and they did not wish to wait. Also, there are some attendants that fall short. and while I've never had a problem, and don't believe I've ever seen a person turned down for medical reasons, but that does not mean someone else hasn't.


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## KmH (Apr 14, 2017)

Ice is pretty much always attainable, from one on-train source or another, and without lying.

When in a Superliner sleeper, if the TA-SC can't get it for me I get ice, one Amtrak cup full at a time, from the dining car staff and/or the Café Attendant.

In a couple of weeks i'll be in coach for a couple of consecutive nights and will have a small soft-sided cooler with me that I expect I'll be able to get ice for - one Amtrak cup full at a time- from the Café Attendant (LSA-Lounge).


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## Manny T (Apr 14, 2017)

Love the fact that in this thread entitled "National Dining Car Specials/New Menus (April '17)" we're up to post #40 and NO ONE has actually sampled any of said specials or has any personal first hand information to report about them.

Seems like most of the convo is about ice.

But do carry on. Imho this is a hoot.


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## zepherdude (Apr 14, 2017)

Manny T said:


> Love the fact that in this thread entitled "National Dining Car Specials/New Menus (April '17)" we're up to post #40 and NO ONE has actually sampled any of said specials or has any personal first hand information to report about them.
> 
> Seems like most of the convo is about ice.
> 
> But do carry on. Imho this is a hoot.


We get side tracked sometimes! The menu does look pretty good. But I liked the last one too! I don't care about ice and I am easy going!


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## DooBdoo (Apr 14, 2017)

MODERATOR NOTE: THIS TOPIC (regarding new menu and new diner on Silver Meteor) WAS MERGED WITH THE EXISTING TOPIC REGARDING NEW NATIONAL MENU. 

Quesadillas- excellent...
Signature dessert - meh.

Steak and Shrimp - superlative!
Lemon tart - very tart!!! Delicious.

Staff asking " How was it? What did you think?"


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 14, 2017)

Glad to hear on the Lemon Tart... I may not like the seafood and pasta options... But a veggie burger and lemon tart can make a fine dinner! Ha.


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## seat38a (Apr 15, 2017)

DooBdoo said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: THIS TOPIC (regarding new menu and new diner on Silver Meteor) WAS MERGED WITH THE EXISTING TOPIC REGARDING NEW NATIONAL MENU.
> 
> Quesadillas- excellent...
> 
> ...


It sounds like even the staff are excited about the new menu.


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## seat38a (Apr 15, 2017)

Just realized that except for 1 or 2 trains, the ice cream is not a dessert option anymore. As far as I can remember, there has always been ice cream, but at the same time, since they replaced it with the blue bunny crap, I won't miss it.


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## Chessie (Apr 15, 2017)

Granted I am far from a foodie but the menu looks more than adequate to me. 

So am I right to assume the items are the same on all LD trains and if I book a sleeper they are all included?


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 15, 2017)

Longhai said:


> So ice is not always obtainable?


 Self service ice used to be available around the clock on most of my trips. Then some rule or regulation or enforcement changed and now it's not nearly as simple. Sometimes the SCA will get ice for you. Some SCA's are quick and other SCA's will get to it if and when they feel like it. Some SCA's will simply tell you to go get it yourself. Depending on the staff for that particular train this could potentially mean having to buy something from the snack car or having the dining car tell you that the SCA is supposed to handle it.



PVD said:


> Apparently some people have had trouble at some times because it wasn't immediately available, and they did not wish to wait.


On most of my trips between 10pm and 6-7am there is no ice availability whatsoever. Maybe it's just me but 8+ hours seems like an extended delay for something that was previously available nearly all the time. I know many forum members bring lots of luggage including coolers and such but my trips tend to involve at least one flight and that means I cannot bring igloos and kitchen sinks on most of my trips.



seat38a said:


> Just realized that except for 1 or 2 trains, the ice cream is not a dessert option anymore. As far as I can remember, there has always been ice cream, but at the same time, since they replaced it with the blue bunny crap, I won't miss it.


Yeah, I stopped caring once they replaced the ice cream with Blue Bunny brand cool whip balls.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 15, 2017)

Longhai said:


> Granted I am far from a foodie but the menu looks more than adequate to me.
> 
> So am I right to assume the items are the same on all LD trains and if I book a sleeper they are all included?


The notable exceptions being The Cardinal, The City of New Orleans, and the Lake Shore Limited.

The Lake Shore continues to run without a full diner, but has a more complete menu than The Cardinal, or City, which continue with their limited offerings.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/767/590/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-111516.pdf


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## ehbowen (Apr 15, 2017)

seat38a said:


> It sounds like even the staff are excited about the new menu.


It wouldn't surprise me to find that the attitude of [most of] the staff is, "Give us something decent to work with and we'll run with it!"


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like even the staff are excited about the new menu.
> ...


What makes this menu more "decent" than the past several? It's all the same stuff...


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2017)

Oh... on a closer look I do see that the Asian Stir Fry is possibly a good Vegetarian option... I assumed it was the same Amy's microwave dinner that Amtrak serves as "Healthy Choice." So while I still think they should have a non-shellfish fish entree', if the Stir Fry takes the place of the Vegetarian Pasta my previous comments are not quite as harsh.


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## Chessie (Apr 15, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Longhai said:
> 
> 
> > So ice is not always obtainable?
> ...


That is indeed unfortunate.



Maverickstation said:


> Longhai said:
> 
> 
> > Granted I am far from a foodie but the menu looks more than adequate to me.
> ...


Thanks! How about the Silver Star? Did it regain the full diner now?


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## PVD (Apr 15, 2017)

Regulations being enforced is not a problem, but non responsive staff is. As long as they aren't doing anything else, or on a break, they should be attending to passengers needs. If they are on a break, they should let people know politely. Overnight hours I have mixed feelings about, 10PM is a little early for a cutoff, but at a certain point, staff is entitled to sleep.


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## WoodyinNYC (Apr 15, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> ... BTW, anyone know when those long delayed dining cars will be delivered?


*Are we there yet?*

LOL.

When we get solid reports of the next batch of Viewliners, we'll be awakened by sirens and clanging church bells all over this site.


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## ehbowen (Apr 15, 2017)

WoodyinNYC said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > ... BTW, anyone know when those long delayed dining cars will be delivered?
> ...


 Sometimes I think that we are more likely to hear Gabriel's horn than see a dozen completed Viewliner II sleepers from CAF....


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## Tennessee Traveler (Apr 15, 2017)

Just got off the CZ yesterday and we had the new menu I had the seared shrimp and the pork slider's. I really liked both. Disappointed still no ice cream.


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## Train2104 (Apr 15, 2017)

Just saw this thread...interesting. Comparing the menu with my Zephyr ride a year ago:

Breakfast looks like the same thing just with puffed up phrasing and the added egg bowl.

Lunch - I liked the original chicken salad, it was great since you were sitting on the train all day. I'm not sure I'd go for this "Southwestern" version with guacamole though. And it's probably preprepared so you can't ask for it without it.

Dinner - Better the ACAT chef stuff than the supermarket TV dinners, although that still seems to be on the menu. The shrimp looks like an interesting choice, and the $36 combo looks like it costs Amtrak nothing in terms of space since it's the same ingredients as the steak and the shrimp entrees separately. Accounting gimmick it is.

I notice the note about lunch items being available for dinner is no more.

No more ice cream?


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## seat38a (Apr 15, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh... on a closer look I do see that the Asian Stir Fry is possibly a good Vegetarian option... I assumed it was the same Amy's microwave dinner that Amtrak serves as "Healthy Choice." So while I still think they should have a non-shellfish fish entree', if the Stir Fry takes the place of the Vegetarian Pasta my previous comments are not quite as harsh.


We get it, your upset about the fish. Can you let it go already or are you going to point out the lack of fish every time you respond?


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2017)

seat38a said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Oh... on a closer look I do see that the Asian Stir Fry is possibly a good Vegetarian option... I assumed it was the same Amy's microwave dinner that Amtrak serves as "Healthy Choice." So while I still think they should have a non-shellfish fish entree', if the Stir Fry takes the place of the Vegetarian Pasta my previous comments are not quite as harsh.
> ...


Umm... It would appear that you are more bothered by me mentioning fish than I am about the fish missing from the menu. Oops... I mentioned it again.
Perhaps Amtrak could serve salmon ice cream and satisfy both me and all of those who miss the ice cream!


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## OBS (Apr 15, 2017)

Train2104 said:


> Just saw this thread...interesting. Comparing the menu with my Zephyr ride a year ago:
> 
> Breakfast looks like the same thing just with puffed up phrasing and the added egg bowl.
> 
> ...


The guacamole is provisioned separately, so presumably could be served without and/or on the side.


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## RSG (Apr 15, 2017)

Train2104 said:


> Breakfast looks like the same thing just with puffed up phrasing and the added egg bowl.


Not quite. You'll notice that the vegetable medley is gone from the omelet, replaced by salsa and/or guacamole. The cheese selection has changed slightly from Swiss to Monterey Jack, presumably in keeping with the southwest/Tex-Mex theme. There has also been for the past two years, a choice of a whole wheat biscuit or a croissant; now it's just a croissant. As someone who aims for better nutritional choices in dining, this is a downgrade of sorts for breakfast.


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## RSG (Apr 15, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > I would hesitate to call something offered by Golden Corral and Denny's as a "Higher End Option."
> ...


At the risk of going further afield and off-topic, a brand-new Denny’s opened up last year near me after a 15-year absence from the area. There are plenty of interesting dishes for lunch and dinner and while few things are prepared from scratch on site, they are still tasty and there are now more options for sides than five different ways to destroy a potato.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2017)

So whats wrong with Guacamole, a real delicacy?


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2017)

RSG said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Oh you can for sure get good food at Denny's... I just don't think they have any higher end menu items. 
But that varies I suppose. It's a very clever money idea for Amtrak to add the surf snd turf.


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## RSG (Apr 15, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> So whats wrong with Guacamole, a real delicacy?


Not a dang thing...I just happen to like mine with a side of tortilla chips (made on-site please, if possible). I enjoy Southwest/Tex-Mex cuisine as much as anyone else who partakes; I just don’t want to eat it three times a day. As such, I prefer to have my eggs without salsa, guac, or Tabasco.

Also, I love avocados, but the Avocado Board (and the Mexican growers association) have gone a bit overboard on the marketing in the past couple of years. It’s almost as bad as “Angus beef”---after the hide is removed from the carcass, few can tell what breed the steak or burger came from without a DNA test. Yet thanks to great marketing by the Angus producers associations, most consumers automatically assume it is high quality and the only type of beef they should expect to have served. Sometimes I long for the days when produce items were truly seasonal and therefore awaited with great anticipation instead of forced upon us thirteen months a year.


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## Chessie (Apr 16, 2017)

I have to agree fish would have been a smarter idea than shrimps.


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## PVD (Apr 16, 2017)

I'm a "neutral" since I don't eat regular fish or shellfish. But a legit downside of shellfish choices, is that more people are allergic to them, thereby limiting choices for a real reason, not just a preference.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 16, 2017)

Longhai said:


> I have to agree fish would have been a smarter idea than shrimps.


Ditto!
Not being a fan of Shrimp, I miss the Salmon,Trout and the Catfish, but not the Tilapia!


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 16, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Longhai said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree fish would have been a smarter idea than shrimps.
> ...


Agreed. Did you ever have the mahi mahi from the summer menu about 4 years ago? It was right up there with the Lamb Shank as one of the best Amtrak Dinner entrees on my personal favorites list.


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## dlagrua (Apr 16, 2017)

Amtrak could never please everybody but the dinner menu has been greatly expanded and there are more choices. Focusing on the positive it is an overall improvement, probably Wicks idea, to keep the kitchen advisory staff working. He also did remark that the dining car was part of the service. We didn't hear anything like that for a while.


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## JayPea (Apr 16, 2017)

When I think of Amtrak food, I recall an article from the student newspaper about our campus dining hall at the university I was attending. All I remember was the last (and bottom) line. The gist of it was "It (the food) may not be like mom makes at home, but mom didn't have to cook for 5,000 people." And that's how I feel about Amtrak food too.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 16, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> So whats wrong with Guacamole, a real delicacy?


Throw a little QUALITY hot sauce in with it and I'll kill a tub of it and a whole bag of chips before I even get started! And yet I absolutely HATE avocados when they are served alone!


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## gatelouse (Apr 16, 2017)

Had the new menus on a recent trip on 30.

The Shrimp entree nets you about 10-12 cocktail sized (or a tad smaller) peeled shrimp in a generic seafood spice that's similar to what was on the cod loin. Not bad at all.

You can tell that the enchiladas were prepared off the train. Lots of beans and a bit of minced chicken. Order something else.

French toast was...unavailable on my trip. At least the omelette is still grilled in the kitchen.


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## jebr (Apr 16, 2017)

A couple posts have been hidden due to personal attacks.

A reminder that personal attacks are not allowed on the site. We also encourage responses to have some semblance of relation to the topic at hand.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2017)

Still no ingredients list. Still violating ADA as a result.


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## PVD (Apr 16, 2017)

The ADA does not impose an absolute requirement to provide an ingredients list. 4. Does the ADA require that all public accommodations that serve food, like restaurants, also serve gluten-free or allergen-free food?

From FoodAllergy.org, regarding DOJ rulings:

 A: No. The ADA does not require that every place of public accommodation that serves food to the public provide gluten-free or allergen-free food.  5. What might a restaurant or other similar place of public accommodation need to do to accommodate an individual with celiac disease or other food allergies?  A: A restaurant may have to take some reasonable steps to accommodate individuals with disabilities where it does not result in a fundamental alteration of that restaurant's operations. By way of example only, this may include: 1) answering questions from diners about menu item ingredients, where the ingredients are known, or 2) omitting or substituting certain ingredients upon request if the restaurant normally does this for other customers.


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## RSG (Apr 16, 2017)

JayPea said:


> When I think of Amtrak food, I recall an article from the student newspaper about our campus dining hall at the university I was attending. All I remember was the last (and bottom) line. The gist of it was "It (the food) may not be like mom makes at home, but mom didn't have to cook for 5,000 people." And that's how I feel about Amtrak food too.


That’s a great quote. It is so very true. It is extremely difficult to do institutional food that approaches anything like either ‘home-cooked’ or fine dining. The saving grace is that there are food storage and packaging processes available today that make the ingredients stay fresher and closer to what they were at the time of packaging so that the end result is a more palatable menu item.
On a side note, institutional foodservice has gotten a lot better over the years. The local college near me contracts with the multinational conglomerate Sodexo for their foodservice needs and their offerings are actually quite good---on par with any decent commercial cafeteria. Occasionally a friend & I will eat there on our way to other activities. They also welcome outside patronage.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 16, 2017)

RSG said:


> On a side note, institutional foodservice has gotten a lot better over the years. The local college near me contracts with the multinational conglomerate Sodexo for their foodservice needs and their offerings are actually quite good---on par with any decent commercial cafeteria. Occasionally a friend & I will eat there on our way to other activities. They also welcome outside patronage.


Same with the big University near me. When I went there, the dormitory cafe was basically a slop house, although they did sling some pretty good SOS! Today, it is a culinary delight with different themed serving stations catering to just about any type of appetite. And it is open to the public; something like $7-10 for all you can hold depending on the time of day.

Even though food service has become more standardized since the halcyon days of rail travel, with a little care, the little Diner kitchens can turn out some good stuff.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 16, 2017)

JayPea said:


> When I think of Amtrak food, I recall an article from the student newspaper about our campus dining hall at the university I was attending. All I remember was the last (and bottom) line. The gist of it was "It (the food) may not be like mom makes at home, but mom didn't have to cook for 5,000 people." And that's how I feel about Amtrak food too.


Fair enough, but if that's the case why do we use IHOP or Applebees or Chili's as comparisons when in reality Amtrak is much closer to generic school cafeterias? Even the local Denny's is easily a full step or two above Amtrak's breakfast offerings.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 17, 2017)

I have to disagree about the Breakfast Comparison between Dennys and an Amtrak Diner Chris.( IHOP is better than Dennys IMHO)

I still eat an breakfast at a local Dennys before early work days, and while the prices are right, and the food OK to good, I still consider Breakast to be the overall best meal served in Amteak Diners, especially when considering Bang for the Bucks.

I haven't eaten off the New Menu with the changes but can honestly say I haven't ever had a bad Breakast on Amtrak in my 40+ years,of riding except for the infamous "French Toast Sticks" on the Cardinal. YMMV


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## niemi24s (Apr 17, 2017)

In all these discussions about Amtrak food, the viewpoint of the diner should be considered. As I see it, here are two viewpoints:

• One is the viewpoint of those who spend a lot of time riding LD trains because they ride the train a lot to and from work (and thus accumulate lots of points), can easily board the train close to home and therefore take lots of "points runs". Part of this group is also the retired contingent living close to a station who ride as sort of a hobby - regardless of the cost or points accumulated. This group of LD train riders does a lot of eating on the train and can easily, methinks, regard themselves as qualified food critics, sort of like Anton Ego in the animated feature film Ratatouille shown on the left, below:




• The other viewpoint is that of those who seldom ride the train but who really enjoy LD train travel. That infrequent LD train ride (perhaps every two to five years) becomes a genuine and much-anticipated treat. Also, because of where they live, there may not be many eateries available other than fast food joints. As such, the rider may overlook or not even notice any of the shortcomings in a meal. I liken this group to Emile in that same movie (above, right). He'll stuff down any old food scrap and and enjoy it immensely.

These are, I admit, the extremes of the spectrum of Amtrak diners but they help me understand why some posters seem to constantly grumble about their train food and others (like me) who say they've never had a bad meal on a train.

Perspective. Plain and simple. Perspective.


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## tricia (Apr 17, 2017)

I think your analysis is flawed. Those of us who live 2-3 hours or more from the nearest Amtrak station, and who thus don't take the train very often, might have higher rather than lower expectations. (If I'm going to have to contort my schedule to take the train, I want the experience to be a good one.) And those of us who live, say, an hour or more from the nearest McDonalds might, being unaccustomed to fast food, have a lower tolerance for it.

Or maybe different tolerances for mediocre-or-worse food vary from one individual to another, without much of a correlation to where each individual lives.


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## niemi24s (Apr 17, 2017)

Mine might not be flawed - perhaps just a perspective that differs from yours.

We are, after all, not talking about quantifiable absolutes but mere opinions. Opinions about food as well as opinions about those who eat it. And opinions are like belly buttons - everybody's got one.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 17, 2017)

I also don't agree with your opinion though  joking. Ha

As someone who has ridden Amtrak for many years... The food has been fine ever since the Bob Evans Breakfast Scramble days! (You couldn't fresh scrambled eggs, or grilled to order steak during that time...) about 4 years ago Amtrak was doing great. The Lamb, crab cakes, mahi mahi, were all truly excellent entrees that you would expect to order in a high end restaurant. while the sides and salads still had room for improvement... Over all things were looking great with several trains using the ceramic plates and glassware.

Things have taken a turn for the worse since then, but on most trains it's remained decent.

Everyone has different expectations... I sat with a family a few years ago who were saying the empire builder dining car was "a little better than a McDonald's" - that was with a good crew and in the China / glassware days. I was shocked.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 17, 2017)

Ingredient lists are STARTING to be included on the Food Facts site.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w432/h340/AMFF-SPRING-2017-39.pdf

Ken


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 18, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> I have to disagree about the Breakfast Comparison between Dennys and an Amtrak Diner Chris.( IHOP is better than Dennys IMHO) I still eat an breakfast at a local Dennys before early work days, and while the prices are right, and the food OK to good, I still consider Breakast to be the overall best meal served in Amteak Diners, especially when considering Bang for the Bucks. I haven't eaten off the New Menu with the changes but can honestly say I haven't ever had a bad Breakast on Amtrak in my 40+ years,of riding except for the infamous "French Toast Sticks" on the Cardinal. YMMV


Let's take a look at the current omelet...




That is among the sorriest looking "omelets" I've ever seen. As is usual for Amtrak the "egg" has the exact same hue and texture across the entire plate. Real eggs vary in color and texture because they're not perfectly uniform after conventional beating. Only high pressure pasteurized egg syrup is anywhere near this consistent. Denny's may be a low grade restaurant but at least you can order your eggs however you please. I haven't seen eggs that were genuinely _made to order_ on Amtrak in decades.


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## jis (Apr 18, 2017)

Do they even carry any real uncracked eggs in Amtrak Diners any more? I though they only carry the syrup stuff. Otherwise why would they be unable to serve eggs over easy and such?


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## Maverickstation (Apr 18, 2017)

Amtrak trains with full diners use fresh eggs. Your only option is scrambled due to the limited staff they operate with.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 18, 2017)

jis said:


> Do they even carry any real uncracked eggs in Amtrak Diners any more? I though they only carry the syrup stuff. Otherwise why would they be unable to serve eggs over easy and such?


&


Maverickstation said:


> Amtrak trains with full diners use fresh eggs. Your only option is scrambled due to the limited staff they operate with.


From looking at the pictures and reading the descriptions it would appear that the scrambled eggs meal comes from two whole shell eggs while the omelet is made from three eggs worth of egg syrup.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 18, 2017)

Well one of you is gonna have egg on their face. And you haven't even had breakfast on the train.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 18, 2017)

The previous menus omelettes appeared to fresh and made to order.


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## niemi24s (Apr 18, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Let's take a look at the current omelet...


What's the source of the screenshot of that omelette in Post #86?

[Edit: Disregard, I found it. It's from the Amtrak food facts website.]

However, based on the menu description of the omelette...

...the photo doesn't seem to show anything inside or mixed in with the eggs. Don't omelettes usually have ham, cheese, bacon, onions, tomatoes or some other ingredient mixed in? I guess the big question is...

Q: Does the omelette you actually get in the dining car look like the square yellow thing in the photo?


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## Chessie (Apr 18, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Longhai said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree fish would have been a smarter idea than shrimps.
> ...


Yep, I also prefer salmon, trout and cod over tilapia. 
Personally I like shrimp but I think fish would have a wilder audience hence a smarter choice from a consuner's pov because some people have shell fish allergies or religious reasons to avoid shrimp, and the health conscious generally prefer fish for its higher omega 3 and lower cholesterol.

I suspect cost and ease of storage and better tolerance to freezing might be the reasons Amtrak opted for shrimp. Certainly valid reasons too from the operating side.


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## jis (Apr 18, 2017)

The difference between the two beaten egg scenarios is rather subtle I must say.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 18, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Let's take a look at the current omelet...
> ...


You must have updated just as I was clicking the quote button. In any case for those who are curious and want quick access here is a link...

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/links.do?c=0&t=59&h=SunsetLimited.html&g=0&dsmxs=09327784C86B64BBC8485BAB70FDCD94474A9962&link=http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w432/h340/AMFF-SPRING-2017-3.pdf


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## PVD (Apr 18, 2017)

One of the hotels I frequent has a comp breakfast buffet, with an omelette bar. For speed, they use pasteurized eggs in cartons, and they pour them into a stainless steel container that sits in ice, and ladle the eggs into round forms laid out on the flattop. After they start to set, they drop on whatever items you requested and when done fold the omlette in half which is probably a more common shape. So it is possible to cook to order and come up with a standard shape, but my choice would not be square.


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## jis (Apr 18, 2017)

In my mind eggs that are already outside the shell in a vat are really not fresh eggs. But well ... whatever.


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## RSG (Apr 18, 2017)

PVD said:


> One of the hotels I frequent has a comp breakfast buffet, with an omelette bar. For speed, they use pasteurized eggs in cartons, [...]


Known in the trade as “liquid egg product” (though I must say I like the term ‘egg syrup’). In institutional settings where time is of the essence, this is best way--in terms of production--to turn out an egg dish that approximates the real thing. This is the only way to go for hotel breakfast bars when you have one or two people responsible for production and a limited time frame in which to serve the meal. This is the setup of most hotel breakfast/omelet bars---and Amtrak. Places like Denny’s, IHOP, etc can have 3-4 people for their breakfast rush to make eggs any way you want (and to handle reorders when someone complains their ‘over easy’ egg is “hard as a rock”) and then do prep work in the down times. The alternative to ‘egg syrup’ is powdered scrambled eggs---a solution I guarantee no one is going to think worthy of a $12.95 menu price (whether paying for it directly or not).
Heretofore the omelets/egg orders I’ve had in the diners have been real eggs, since many times they are barely scrambled (a pet peeve of mine). Assuming that is still the case, I’m going to say that the square omelet in the food facts pic was simulated for publishing purposes. Food photography is an art in itself and when the day came to photograph items for the new menu, either the photographer was rushed and didn’t have time to do a lot of retakes, or else the ‘authentic’ omelets didn’t hold up to the demands of the photo shoot and so they used the LEP for the usable picture published online. This might be one case in which the real thing looks better than the picture---something that would work in favor of the dining car service.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 18, 2017)

As a regular participant on the Cruise Critic web site as well as an occasional one here, I find it interesting that the "liquid egg product" discussion is now taking place on an Amtrak oriented web site. The use of, taste of, desirability of, and "is the stuff really made of eggs" has been discussed thoroughly on at least the HAL Message Boards of Cruise Critic. This is particularly true with the omelets prepared in the Lido Restaurants of HAL ships. (I don't follow other cruise line Message Boards so closely, but I would not be surprised that there have been discussions about this First World issue on them as well.)

Personally, I order Lido Restaurant omelets on HAL ships and have been pleased. I have ordered omelets--no chance to try the new menu as yet, but it is coming--on Amtrak. I have enjoyed all that were prepared and could not discern any difference between what may have been "liquid egg product" and the real egg.


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## niemi24s (Apr 18, 2017)

RSG said:


> . . .I’m going to say that the square omelet in the food facts pic was simulated for publishing purposes. Food photography is an art in itself and when the day came to photograph items for the new menu, either the photographer was rushed and didn’t have time to do a lot of retakes, or else the ‘authentic’ omelets didn’t hold up to the demands of the photo shoot and so they used the LEP for the usable picture published online. This might be one case in which the real thing looks better than the picture---something that would work in favor of the dining car service.


I'm going to assume the same thing. A friend of mine makes a part-time living at taking food pix, and the one of the omelette in Amtrak Food Facts looks quite amateurish in comparison. We may have been fooled by the picture, but will have to wait for somebody to post something about what an actual omelette served on a train looks like. Keep your fingers crossed!


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## neroden (Apr 18, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> Ingredient lists are STARTING to be included on the Food Facts site.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w432/h340/AMFF-SPRING-2017-39.pdf
> 
> Ken


OH MY GOD. THANK YOU.

You have no idea what this means to me. While I can't actually eat that particular dish (I can't tolerate serrano chiles), if they did this on every dish, I'd have a much wider selection of food to choose from on Amtrak and I'd be *very* pleased.

This is what I've been asking for for the last several years.

Unfortunately, I just went and checked the LSL menu and so far none of them have ingredients lists, so I guess it'll be a while...

They probably still won't detail the bread ingredients, sadly (and that's where the worst allergen for me usually is -- guar gum is a common bread additive). But I can hope. And even without bread it still gives me a lot more options.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 18, 2017)

Just had dinner on the Meteor. Had the surf and turf. I liked the shrimp, they weren't overcooked and had a good oceanic taste that shellfish should have. The steak was cooked excellently, just like I like it. Baked potato was Ok. Veggie medley was fine, not overcooked, but it cake waswas a bit heavy on the starches with corn and edamame (soybeans). Salad was tolerable, at least they use romaine lettuce, but I wish they'd have a wider choice of dressings. Cheesecake was good, but the presentation is terrible.

Definitely an uptick in food quality. Service was also good.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 18, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> Just had dinner on the Meteor. Had the surf and turf. I liked the shrimp, they weren't overcooked and had a good oceanic taste that shellfish should have. The steak was cooked excellently, just like I like it. Baked potato was Ok. Veggie medley was fine, not overcooked, but it cake waswas a bit heavy on the starches with corn and edamame (soybeans). Salad was tolerable, at least they use romaine lettuce, but I wish they'd have a wider choice of dressings. Cheesecake was good, but the presentation is terrible.
> 
> Definitely an uptick in food quality. Service was also good.


It's good to hear a personal report, and I'm glad you thought it was good, and great to hear the service was good. But why do you say the food is an uptick in quality? Salad, Cheesecake, Baked Potato, Veggies, and Steak all sound exactly as they were before... and I'm guessing the Shrimp is the same quality as the previous Seafood Dishes.. which was pretty decent. So what changed in quality?


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## bretton88 (Apr 19, 2017)

Definitely Moorman starting to make good on his vow to upgrade food service. These are much better options than when I took the EB in January.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 19, 2017)

bretton88 said:


> Definitely Moorman starting to make good on his vow to upgrade food service. These are much better options than when I took the EB in January.


How so? I see some additional options which may or may not be good quality. But everything looks the same to me. I rode the Empire Builder in November (same menu cycle) and had good food options.

I'm all for actual improvements... but I see none yet.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 19, 2017)

I'm pleased to see menu upgrades, but my problem is the combination of what is listed below:



Devil's Advocate said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> > When I think of Amtrak food, I recall an article from the student newspaper about our campus dining hall at the university I was attending. All I remember was the last (and bottom) line. The gist of it was "It (the food) may not be like mom makes at home, but mom didn't have to cook for 5,000 people." And that's how I feel about Amtrak food too.
> ...





denmarks said:


> That includes the new Field & Sea Combo for $36.


I understand the attempt to recover costs. However, I would resent being charged premium "fresh cooked" prices for pre-plated meals. For those prices, I want something cooked to my liking.

Well, at least grits are on some of the menus.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 19, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I understand the attempt to recover costs. However, I would resent being charged premium "fresh cooked" prices for pre-plated meals. For those prices, I want something cooked to my liking. Well, at least grits are on some of the menus.


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## Train2104 (Apr 19, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> Just had dinner on the Meteor. Had the surf and turf. I liked the shrimp, they weren't overcooked and had a good oceanic taste that shellfish should have. The steak was cooked excellently, just like I like it. Baked potato was Ok. Veggie medley was fine, not overcooked, but it cake waswas a bit heavy on the starches with corn and edamame (soybeans). Salad was tolerable, at least they use romaine lettuce, but I wish they'd have a wider choice of dressings. Cheesecake was good, but the presentation is terrible.


Am I the only one who doesn't like romaine lettuce? I like the new dinner choices, but looking at the lunch menu, I may be stuck between burger and pork sliders on my next LD trip (if this is still the menu)

Ugh fancification.


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## niemi24s (Apr 20, 2017)

I agree with you. I'm not a food snoot and was surprised to read a Cruise Critic staff review of one ship's salads grumbling because they had too much iceberg lettuce. That's my favorite kind! But, I suppose, others may turn up their noses at it.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> I agree with you. I'm not a food snoot and was surprised to read a Cruise Critic staff review of one ship's salads grumbling because they had too much iceberg lettuce. That's my favorite kind! But, I suppose, others may turn up their noses at it.


I've always wondered if anyone actually _preferred_ iceberg over actual other lettuce. It's neither nutritious nor flavorful so I never really understood the appeal myself. I guess the primary benefits are that it's crunchy and cheap and you can eat the whole head in one sitting without worrying about empty calories (or vitamins). It's also the only lettuce I've seen that you can easily cut into a wedge or any number of other shapes without falling apart. Iceberg lettuce is something like 96% water and 4% cellulose, which is similar to a cucumber, but without the flavor or nutrition.


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## keelhauled (Apr 20, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's also the only lettuce I've seen that you can easily cut into a wedge or any number of other shapes without falling apart.


I have a deepseated dislike for iceberg lettuce because the first (and to date only) time I ordered a "blue cheese wedge salad" I was under the impression that the wedge was of cheese. You can imagine my disappointment.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 20, 2017)

Just a personal opinion, but the fact that Amtrak is changing the menus is encouraging to me. Quality restaurants in my area change their menus to attract more guests as well as repeat diners who enjoy that restaurant. I think Amtrak is trying to do the same. And, if so, that is a good business model, I think.


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## RSG (Apr 20, 2017)

Train2104 said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't like romaine lettuce? I like the new dinner choices, but looking at the lunch menu, I may be stuck between burger and pork sliders on my next LD trip (if this is still the menu)
> 
> Ugh fancification.





niemi24s said:


> I agree with you. I'm not a food snoot and was surprised to read a Cruise Critic staff review of one ship's salads grumbling because they had too much iceberg lettuce. That's my favorite kind! But, I suppose, others may turn up their noses at it.


I personally don't mind Romaine lettuce, but it has to be in good condition (and I still like a lettuce blend over straight Romaine). The problem with Romaine is that it wilts quickly and has to be stored under just the right circumstances in order to remain "fresh". This is why I'm surprised that Amtrak is using it for food service. I can't imagine a supply of Romaine salad mix staying un-wilted from Emeryville or Los Angeles to Chicago in July, particularly when it may not always stay at or around 40°F (especially when pre-plated). I predict this will be one of the first items to change before the next new menus come out.

The Romaine-vs-Iceberg debate is the food equivalent of the "does the toilet paper roll go so the end is under or over" debate. There are people like DA & Oprah Winfrey who think Iceberg is barely lettuce at all. Then there are those who consider people who want only Romaine or a 'spring mix' to be food snobs. Currently in the world of foodservice, it seems the Romaine side is winning, as I notice more and more restaurants either using it either exclusively or in an Iceberg blend. I do notice that in cases where Romaine is used, about half the time I end up picking a piece or two out because it has already wilted and started to liquefy.

Another reason Amtrak may have gone to Romaine is because it tends to be "fluffier" (ie, less dense) and therefore takes up more space on a bowl or plate, thus presumably enabling an equivalent amount to go farther. Whether that would be a true economical advantage would depend of course on the actual cost of the product (as well as any losses from spoiled product unable to be served).


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## PVD (Apr 20, 2017)

Romaine keeps pretty well when kept in the sealed bags for salad mixes that are common in supermarkets. Once opened not so great. I have a bag of Dole Romaine mix in my refrigerator I opened tonight. I'll get 3 days out of it before it is either finished or "finished"


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 21, 2017)

Iceberg has a certain cool wateryness and a certain crispness (assuming it's properly served) that adds texture and such to certain things- like sandwhiches and salad. It doesn't have much flavor, and it isn't particularly nutritionally useful, but it does have its place.

It also provides for stomach filling without calories, which is nice for people with large appetites and a desire for a smaller waste size. For instance, if one likes to take bite out of a large burger, replacing some of the sandwhiches thickness with ice burg can make the burger more satisfying to bite into, and make it feel solid in ones hands, feeling like one has eaten more, while in fact substantially reducing its calorie and fat content.

So I do have a preference for ice burg here and there. But an all iceberg salad is not an example.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Iceberg has a certain cool wateryness and a certain crispness (assuming it's properly served) that adds texture and such to certain things- like sandwhiches and salad.


If crispness is the primary appeal then cabbage, carrots, and radishes are substantially crispier than iceberg.



Green Maned Lion said:


> It doesn't have much flavor, and it isn't particularly nutritionally useful, but it does have its place.


Yeah, as a dirt cheap vegetable-like filler that was bred to survive long trips in a rail car. As ice based transport was replaced with refrigerated trucks iceberg was reemployed as an easy way to make fatty heart clogging meals look healthier.



Green Maned Lion said:


> It also provides for stomach filling without calories, which is nice for people with large appetites and a desire for a smaller waste size. For instance, if one likes to take bite out of a large burger, replacing some of the sandwhiches thickness with ice burg can make the burger more satisfying to bite into, and make it feel solid in ones hands, feeling like one has eaten more, while in fact substantially reducing its calorie and fat content.


In my experience the vast majority of iceberg lettuce is served lathered with mayonnaise or drenched in ranch or bleu cheese or thousand island dressing. People who are health conscious enough to eat lettuce plain or with a low calorie topping wouldn't choose iceberg in the first place.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 21, 2017)

All right, GML vs. The Devil. This is the matchup faithful AU followers have been awaiting.


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## zephyr17 (Apr 21, 2017)

Lettuce Wars? Really?


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## PVD (Apr 21, 2017)

Both have a point. Iceberg has a legit purpose for which it is well suited. Most of the disdain seems to arise from folks using it for things it is not well suited for, usually driven by cost considerations, or ignorance.


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## A Voice (Apr 21, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't have much flavor, and it isn't particularly nutritionally useful, but it does have its place.
> ...


Just because you don't like something, or wouldn't make that choice (and when there is nothing wrong with a different opinion) doesn't mean everyone else feels the same way. Most of my salads consist of a bowl of Iceberg lettuce with the fat-free version of Italian dressing - because its just 20 calories a serving; A big bowl of Iceberg even smothered in dressing is a filling, low calorie part of the meal. I've tried Romaine and leaf lettuces but prefer Iceberg.



zephyr17 said:


> Lettuce Wars? Really?


Well, what do expect people to talk about on the "Make Vegetables Great Again" forums? Trains or something?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2017)

zephyr17 said:


> Lettuce Wars? Really?


Yes. Really.





Or, alternatively, how about something more like this...



They look like some weird grownup version of the cabbage patch kids.


----------



## A Voice (Apr 21, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Or, alternatively, how about something more like this...








There, that's better.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm not here to start wars on lettuce. Wars over a different kinds of lettuce (the type with dead presidents thereon) maybe.

You asked if anyone ever had a preference for iceberg. I am giving you some places that I do. And overall actually agreeing- it is not my general preference for salad lettuce.



Devil's Advocate said:


> If crispness is the primary appeal then cabbage, carrots, and radishes are substantially crispier than iceberg.


I said "cool wateryness" and a "certain crispness"; cabbage, carrots, and radishes have different sorts of crispnesses and are certainly not watery.



> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't have much flavor, and it isn't particularly nutritionally useful, but it does have its place.
> ...


I won't dispute you that this is mainly how it's used.



> In my experience the vast majority of iceberg lettuce is served lathered with mayonnaise or drenched in ranch or bleu cheese or thousand island dressing. People who are health conscious enough to eat lettuce plain or with a low calorie topping wouldn't choose iceberg in the first place.


I do not dispute that this is often the way it is served. That is the fault of the food preparer, not the lettuce.

If I order a burger with 1/2 lb of meat, slathered with sauces, Swiss cheese, goat cheese, and bacon, it will have more calories than if I order burger with 1/3lb of the same meat, sauces, Swiss cheese, goat cheese, bacon, and a chunk of iceberg. True or false?

As I said, it can be used to replace more caloric bulk in a food dish. So it does have uses. If we ever break bread, DA, I can assure you that iceberg is not something found in my kitchen. But I am tired of your one-size-fits-all generalizations.

Personally my favorite low cal bulk up is sauerkraut, which I've heard most people hate. It's actually quite healthy for you because of the active biological components of its fermentation.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> You asked if anyone ever had a preference for iceberg. I am giving you some places that I do. And overall actually agreeing- it is not my general preference for salad lettuce.


Fair enough, point taken.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience the vast majority of iceberg lettuce is served lathered with mayonnaise or drenched in ranch or bleu cheese or thousand island dressing. People who are health conscious enough to eat lettuce plain or with a low calorie topping wouldn't choose iceberg in the first place.
> ...


I think the difference between our positions boils down to a matter of practical vs theoretical. You can make a reasonable case that iceberg _could_ be used as a low calorie replacement for less healthy ingredients. Meanwhile I can make a reasonable case that, from a practical standpoint, iceberg lettuce is _very __rarely_ used in such a manner.



Green Maned Lion said:


> If we ever break bread, DA, I can assure you that iceberg is not something found in my kitchen. But I am tired of your one-size-fits-all generalizations.


Generalizing may not be infallible it's a lot faster than always being right. :lol:



A Voice said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Or, alternatively, how about something more like this...
> ...


Not really the same thing though. I did once see women wearing raw beef as a joke in a magazine once and... Let's just say it didn't have nearly the same appeal as lettuce bikinis.


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## WoodyinNYC (Apr 21, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm not here to start wars on lettuce.
> 
> ... my favorite low cal bulk up is sauerkraut, which ... is actually quite healthy because of the active biological components of its fermentation.


_Where were you when the lights went out?_

_Down in the cellar eating sauerkraut!_

It is a probiotic food. And I love it.

But sauerkraut does have unpleasant side effects. Glad it's not served in the confined spaces of rail cars. (Let's keep this thread On Topic, please. LOL.)

The side effects can usually be prevented with a capsule or two of Beano, the branded product which could as easily be named CabbageO, and in a store brand version of alpha-galactosidase from every major drugstore chain. The vegetable-derived enzyme breaks down complex carbohydrates in the gut and ends the production of excess gas.


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## ehbowen (Apr 21, 2017)

WoodyinNYC said:


> But sauerkraut does have some unpleasant side effects. I'm glad it is not served in the confined spaces of rail cars. (Let's keep this thread On Topic, please. LOL.)
> 
> The side effects can usually be prevented with a capsule or two of Beano, the branded product which could as easily be named CabbageO, and in a store brand version from every major drugstore chain. The vegetable-derived enzyme breaks down complex carbohydrates in the gut and ends the production of excess gas.


 Now, now, you went there first. As with most everything, there is an opposing view:





:giggle:


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## tricia (Apr 21, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Personally my favorite low cal bulk up is sauerkraut, which I've heard most people hate. It's actually quite healthy for you because of the active biological components of its fermentation.


Most sauerkraut is "dead," alas. Still tasty, but lacks probiotic benefits.

Only place to find kraut (or other pickles) with live cultures in a grocery store is in a refrigerator case. Look for a brand like Bubbies, one that says on the jar it has live cultures.

Or make your own--very easy. We usually keep a jar of cucumber pickles fermenting in our kitchen throughout the summer. When they're sour enough for our taste, they go in the fridge and another jar gets started. Yum. Looking forward to cucumbers from the garden again in a few weeks.

Sad, but understandable, that nothing this fresh is to be found in an Amtrak dining car. But, in the realm of the feasible, I do think Amtrak could do MUCH better in the fresh-and-healthful department.


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## RSG (Apr 21, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> Now, now, you went there first. As with most everything, there is an opposing view:
> 
> :giggle:


Which brings to mind a clickbait article on one of my news feeds from earlier today...you know why flight attendants take a walkthrough the plane at random times? Well, the change in air pressure results in certain things building up and therefore needing to be released. So it could be said they are spreading the love around...


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 21, 2017)

RSG said:


> You know why flight attendants take a walkthrough the plane at random times? Well, the change in air pressure results in certain things building up and therefore needing to be released. So it could be said they are spreading the love around...


If United/American/Delta flight attendants are walking by it may just be another excuse to kick knees/feet and bump shoulders/elbows on their way to another gossip session in the area that used to be a galley.


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## Steve4031 (May 6, 2017)

Breakfast on 4 this morning was good. I had the French toast. I'm intrigued by the quesadillas with cheese and bacon for lunch.


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## Skyline (May 6, 2017)

PVD said:


> "...Overnight hours I have mixed feelings about, 10PM is a little early for a cutoff, but at a certain point, staff is entitled to sleep."


Since most on board staff is awake by 5am, working about 6am, when would it be okay with you for them to go off-duty?


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## niemi24s (May 6, 2017)

Just returned from doing a CZ-CS-SWC loop. The only real disappointment was the Chicken & Bacon Fettucine Carbonara on the CZ as it was severely dehydrated to the point that the pasta was all stuck together by the dried-out cheese sauce making it difficult to eat - had to cut every bite with the fork. That same dish on the SWC was much, much better as it was moist and the pasta wasn't all stuck together.

The big surprise to me was the succotash prepared with what I initially thought were baby lima beans that were somehow tasty and tender. Learned later the beans were edamame.

The CS had no PPC, so all three menus were the same.


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## Johanna (May 6, 2017)

I enjoyed the edamame succotash on the entree salad I had on the EB the other day. Also impressed with the amount of asiago cheese that came with the salad. I was expecting just a little sprinkle, but there was a full condiment cup's worth - served on the side, so you can choose how much to use.

The new vegetarian noodle bowl on the dinner menu is delicious (if you like Asian dishes with tofu, which I do).

I wasn't terribly impressed with the desserts, though. The texture of the cheesecake is weird. The chocolate cake was dry, and I didn't care for the boozy sauce. The lemon tart was OK, I guess, but nothing to write home about.


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## Steve4031 (May 6, 2017)

Chicken quesadillas were fine. Not spicy or adventuresome.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 6, 2017)

Skyline said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > "...Overnight hours I have mixed feelings about, 10PM is a little early for a cutoff, but at a certain point, staff is entitled to sleep."
> ...


Why should that concern customers who are paying a high price for premium service.

When I book a cruise I never ask how much sleep the various employees get... I'm guessing it's very little. And I always think about that when I tip them at the end of the cruise.


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## Carolina Special (May 6, 2017)

To provide 24/7 service, sleeper ticket prices would need to go up to account for at least one more roomette taken out of service for an additional employee. Maybe the cruise lines can handle it, but Amtrak can't afford to lose the revenue.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 6, 2017)

Carolina Special said:


> To provide 24/7 service, sleeper ticket prices would need to go up to account for at least one more roomette taken out of service for an additional employee. Maybe the cruise lines can handle it, but Amtrak can't afford to lose the revenue.


Well no one is asking for 24/7 service... We are asking for beds to be turned down at 10 or 10:30 pm. Seems reasonable.


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## Palmetto (May 6, 2017)

Steve4031 said:


> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1494098130.987532.jpg
> 
> Chicken quesadillas were fine. Not spicy or adventuresome.


Bring your own jalapenos, I guess!


----------



## Steve4031 (May 6, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1494098130.987532.jpg
> ...


I kind of like them. If you want spicy bring them.


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## Dakota 400 (May 6, 2017)

Carolina Special said:


> To provide 24/7 service, sleeper ticket prices would need to go up to account for at least one more roomette taken out of service for an additional employee. Maybe the cruise lines can handle it, but Amtrak can't afford to lose the revenue.


Just a curious question as a result of your post: If there would be a Sleeping Car Attendant required to be on duty 24/7 with a Roomette being placed into revenue service, where would this individual(s) be "housed" within the Sleeping Car to provide such service?


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 6, 2017)

Steve4031 said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
> ...


Better yet, Ghost Peppers or maybe some Trinidad Scorpions


----------



## PVD (May 6, 2017)

There needs to be an attendant available for passengers to get on and off overnight. The attendant for each car has an assigned space within that car (transition car excepted), it is the room where the attendant call button annunciator panel is located. When I say the staff should have the evening to sleep, and should not be expected to provide 24 hour service, that does not include assisting those passengers boarding or departing overnight. The doors don't open themselves, and the rooms should be prepped by the attendant. They are also expected to respond in case of a real emergency. Sleeping car attendants are not butlers or personal assistants, they are certainly entitled to reasonable down time. Cruise ships have a ratio of around 1 crew to 3 passengers, it can not reasonably be compared to train travel.


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## Steve4031 (May 6, 2017)

The steak was delicious. Got double order of mashed potatoes. Skipped the sauce. I liked the cheese cake.


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## PVD (May 6, 2017)

looks pretty good.....which train?


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## Skyline (May 7, 2017)

PVD said:


> There needs to be an attendant available for passengers to get on and off overnight. The attendant for each car has an assigned space within that car (transition car excepted), it is the room where the attendant call button annunciator panel is located. When I say the staff should have the evening to sleep, and should not be expected to provide 24 hour service, that does not include assisting those passengers boarding or departing overnight. The doors don't open themselves, and the rooms should be prepped by the attendant. They are also expected to respond in case of a real emergency. Sleeping car attendants are not butlers or personal assistants, they are certainly entitled to reasonable down time. Cruise ships have a ratio of around 1 crew to 3 passengers, it can not reasonably be compared to train travel.


I have been told by staff on board Amtrak trains that service attendants will sometimes cover for each other, allowing each to get at least some downtime and sleep. This facilitates boarding and detraining, getting new passengers settled, etc. It does not necessarily mean you will have an attendant at your beck and call 24/7 to fetch ice, fluff your pillow, etc.


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## Bob Dylan (May 7, 2017)

Yep, attendants do cover for each other at night and the Conductors also help out (mostly in Coach) in the wee hours since they change every 6-8 Hours and do not sleep on duty.


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## Lonestar648 (May 8, 2017)

I have seen the Conductor board a sleeper passenger during the night, show them their room, tell them a few things like when breakfast would be, etc. but the SCA did have the room ready. Now, I have also heard the SCA changing the bed after someone got off, then when I went to breakfast the room had a new passenger in it. I have seen som SCA only close their curtain so they can be awaken should someone need them. But I have had SCAs who at 9pm close their door and don't open it again until 6am. They generally were very ridged in their vision of the rules. The coffee pot has been cleaned by 11am, turn downs are only done between 8-9, one bottle of water per person, also they refuse to handle your bags. Though most SCAs are not this way, it seems more are each year.


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## RSG (May 9, 2017)

Steve4031 said:


> The steak was delicious. Got double order of mashed potatoes. Skipped the sauce. I liked the cheese cake.


So if you "skipped the sauce", what is in the condiment cup on the left of the plate in the pic?


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## RSG (May 9, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> But I have had SCAs who at 9pm close their door and don't open it again until 6am. They generally were very ridged in their vision of the rules. The coffee pot has been cleaned by 11am, turn downs are only done between 8-9, one bottle of water per person, also they refuse to handle your bags. Though most SCAs are not this way, it seems more are each year.


 I've noticed this also. I mentioned on another thread about one SCA/TA-SC whom I inquired of to do a turn down after or around an upcoming station stop (late night, but certainly prior to Midnight), which I thought might bring on board additonal pax to the sleeper. His response was an incredulous laugh followed by a "Oh no, I'll be asleep by then!" which pretty much told me he viewed passengers as a tolerated inconvenience.


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## JayPea (May 9, 2017)

I have boarded the train in Spokane several times at O God 30 and I have seen coach attendants board sleeping car passengers. I am in Spokane now, waiting to board #7. I am joining my uncle in his sleeper. I will give a comprehensive report on how they boarded me. :lol:


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## Steve4031 (May 9, 2017)

RSG said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > The steak was delicious. Got double order of mashed potatoes. Skipped the sauce. I liked the cheese cake.
> ...


I asked and never got a clear answer. I tasted it and it was bland. I enjoyed the steak though.


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## tommylicious (May 9, 2017)

the bernaise isn't a good idea. it's hard to get bernaise right in most brick and mortar restaurants. i thought the shallot sauce was a better, more realistically executed option.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 10, 2017)

Can you get the omelet without the salsa? Southwestern food is too spicy for me, but it seems to be the food trend now.


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## niemi24s (May 10, 2017)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Can you get the omelet without the salsa?


Yes. Wife & I got them that way last week. But if the omelettes are pre-made (as they seem to be), if all they have left are the ones _with_ salsa you can't because the salsa is right in with the eggs.


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## Lonestar648 (May 10, 2017)

If that is true salsa, then freezing the hot pre made omelet with salsa inside could end up being a mushy mess. I wonder if the omelet has as flap that can be pulled back for a spoonful of salsa then do the reheat so the cheese melts with the salsa. Just a thought. I used to have a restaurant, breakfast was our big money maker.


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## JayPea (May 11, 2017)

Just got back from dinner on the EB where I had the steak and shrimp. It was good but not $36 good. The vegetable medley was nice and crisp instead of soggy and tasteless....a mix of corn, red peppers,and soybeans. The steak came prepared the same way no matter how it was ordered, which is nothing new. I will have steak anywhere between charcoal and the cow still bawling at me so it doesn't matter to me. One interesting thing: we were all started out with a glass of water whether we wanted it or not. Our waiter said it was an experiment to see if less people had pop if they were given water to begin with. Not sure if that sounds ominous or not.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 11, 2017)

JayPea said:


> I had the steak and shrimp. It was good but not $36 good. The vegetable medley was nice and crisp instead of soggy and tasteless....a mix of corn, red peppers,and soybeans. The steak came prepared the same way no matter how it was ordered, which is nothing new. One interesting thing: we were all started out with a glass of water whether we wanted it or not. Our waiter said it was an experiment to see if less people had pop if they were given water to begin with.


I've never had corn, red peppers and soybeans as a side before. How did it taste beyond the texture? Did you have an opportunity to see if the mashers were fresh or powdered? Does "glass of water" indicate the return of glassware?


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## JayPea (May 11, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> > I had the steak and shrimp. It was good but not $36 good. The vegetable medley was nice and crisp instead of soggy and tasteless....a mix of corn, red peppers,and soybeans. The steak came prepared the same way no matter how it was ordered, which is nothing new. One interesting thing: we were all started out with a glass of water whether we wanted it or not. Our waiter said it was an experiment to see if less people had pop if they were given water to begin with.
> ...


I apologize, DA, for the "glass of water" terminology. It was indeed a cheap plastic cup. I too would like to see a return to real glassware. Sorry about that!!The tablecloth was real cloth, though. So that's something!!!! The mashed potatoes were still of the spuds-in-a-box variety. The veggies were surprisingly tasty. The corn had a nice firm texture as did the soybeans. I really couldn't taste the beans, however, which was too bad as I like soybeans. But the corn and peppers had a great taste to them and the soybeans did add more texture to the mix.


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## Bob Dylan (May 11, 2017)

Nice update Jeff! Great to know the horrible veggie mush has been replaced on at least One LD Train.( remember when the Builder had Enhanced Dinning?)

Also nice that real white table cloths are back instead of the "butcher paper" coverings!


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## PaulDobbs (May 11, 2017)

After looking at the supper menu, it appears that if one does not like shrimp, and one does not like spicy foods, the only thing left is the steak!


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## JayPea (May 12, 2017)

JayPea said:


> I have boarded the train in Spokane several times at O God 30 and I have seen coach attendants board sleeping car passengers. I am in Spokane now, waiting to board #7. I am joining my uncle in his sleeper. I will give a comprehensive report on how they boarded me. :lol:


Turns out in this case it was the conductor who boarded me.


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## RSG (May 12, 2017)

JayPea said:


> It was indeed a cheap plastic cup.


Hey now, those cups ain't cheap...they're biodegradable, ya know.


----------



## Manny T (May 12, 2017)

Back to topic: Dining car specials/new menus

So I know the steak is not a new menu item. But I ordered it off the new menu on the Capitol Ltd last week. And believe it or not, there was something better about the dinner experience.

True, the salad and the soft (not crusty) dinner roll were the same. Also the 2 salad dressings were Ranch and Italian--as if there is no such thing as thousand island, blue cheese, etc. Just Ranch and Italian. Always Ranch and Italian.

The steak was very good--cooked perfectly medium-well and quite tasty. There was rice pilaf if you didn't want potatoes--your choice, quite a large tasty portion. The veggie was succotash--corn and soy beans, which I preferred to the watery canned string beans on past trips.

And the desserts were superior--a true lemon tart (very tart), and a chocolate bundt cake with a warm syrup in the center. These may or may not be to your taste, but they are superior to what has been offered previously.

So the menu seems upgraded, and that's without trying a specifically "new" offering.


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## pennyk (May 14, 2017)

I am on 98 now and Steve's posts motivated me to try the quesadillas (without bacon and salsa). They were pretty good and too much for me to eat. Thanks Steve.


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## Steve4031 (May 14, 2017)

pennyk said:


> I am on 98 now and Steve's posts motivated me to try the quesadillas (without bacon and salsa). They were pretty good and too much for me to eat. Thanks Steve.


Penny!! You left our the best parts!!!

Glad you enjoyed it.


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## priller (May 14, 2017)

On the AT, nice new menu since the last time. Not on the website.


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## Bob Dylan (May 14, 2017)

The Grilled Porkchop and the Salmon sound good, the rest blah!

Thanks for sharing!(and I notice it says "First Class"!!!!


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## tommylicious (May 15, 2017)

That looks like a pretty decent menu


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## Thirdrail7 (May 15, 2017)

For the record, the updated the menus on the trains that typically have diner lite service (48,49,50,51,58 and 59) are now posted.


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## Maverickstation (May 15, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> For the record, the updated the menus on the trains that typically have diner lite service (48,49,50,51,58 and 59) are now posted.


That they have and for these trains (Lake Shore, Cardinal and CONO) they have updated the Food Facts site.

This is important with these "heat and eat" entrees as the sodium content can be in the danger zone for a number of us.

The sodium winner (or looser I should add) is:

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w612/h408/AMFF-LSL-5-10-17-17.pdf

On the trains with full diners, the chef inspired entrees (which are also heat and eat) are also very high in sodium.

It is worth noting that for the lake Shore they created a pre made version of the flat iron steak.

Ken


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## priller (May 15, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> The Grilled Porkchop and the Salmon sound good, the rest blah!
> 
> Thanks for sharing!(and I notice it says "First Class"!!!!


I really liked the pork chop. The beef seemed to be the most popular and very good.


----------



## Bjartmarr (May 15, 2017)

What is a Whole Gran Trout Treasure?


----------



## keelhauled (May 15, 2017)

Bjartmarr said:


> What is a Whole Gran Trout Treasure?


I think it's a misspelling of "whole grain," based on the "breaded" description. The first sentence in the discretion is a fragment as well. Have the copy editors fallen victim to cost cutting?


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## Dakota 400 (May 15, 2017)

6 Piece Trout Treasures for a child: I am not sure that this is the best child oriented menu I have seen.

What if the child does not like fish or is allergic to fish?

A Mac/Cheese or Burger/Fries option seems to me to be better options. Even a smaller portion of the vegetarian entree ought to be an acceptable option for Amtrak's young guests.

I appreciate the photos included in this thread. The pork chop entree looks much more appealing than the beef entree does.


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## Lonestar648 (May 15, 2017)

Children always like the mac/cheese, but do not need the fries to go with it. Apple sauce, veggies, etc. is better. When the kids get old enough to be pre-teen, it is special for them to order off the Adult menu. They remember forever riding the train and eating like an adult.


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## anuenue (May 15, 2017)

Aren't younger kids allowed to order from the adult menu, and vice versa? I don't think my kids ever ate from a kids menu. My mom (age 87) does though, because her appetite is smaller now.


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## Lonestar648 (May 16, 2017)

Kids can order from either menu as can adults. I always allowed, even suggested my children and my grandchildren order from the adult menu. There were times when they were in their younger years the children's menu at dinner sounded better. I let them splurge, it was just a short time, so they had dessert for Lunch and Dinner. This made their trip more memorable. Amtrak should have Children's meals that are appealing to Children, but also healthy. Even my youngest to travel didn't want a big plate of french fries with her plate of mac n cheese. She asked for apples or similar. Yes, she was young, but her sister had Type 1 at 3, so all our kids knew we all ate the same in our house and as much as possible out.


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## Bob Dylan (May 16, 2017)

Back when the Hot Dogs were still very good, (Pretzel Buns and Kosher Weiners)I would often order one for Lunch from the Kiddie Menu since Amtrak served very large portions at all meals.

Although I'm not a huge Pizza fan, on long,traveler type trips, I would order the not too bad Pizza from the Kid Menu as a change of pace.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 16, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > For the record, the updated the menus on the trains that typically have diner lite service (48,49,50,51,58 and 59) are now posted.
> ...


I like how they refer to these pre-packaged measl as "Meal Kits."


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## niemi24s (May 16, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Back when the Hot Dogs were still very good. . .


You mean they're _not_ very good anymore? I ate two of them a few weeks ago and thought they were _very _good! On no!! Don't tell me I haven't yet earned my Food Snoot badge!!! 

And Hebrew National hot dogs are no longer kosher? Oh no!! Wait - I'm Lutheran, so it's mox-nix (whew).


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## PVD (May 16, 2017)

The Hebrew National Hot dogs are still considered a good product by most. The inconsistencies in how they are nuked for service by different LSA has been pointed out here before, and it can make a big difference. I do miss the pretzel roll though, nice change of pace.


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## niemi24s (May 16, 2017)

You can tell I'm not into haute quisine - my favorite hamburger and hot dog buns are the ones you get at the gas station. My farm-girl Mom would fix me soup and a hot dog for lunch, putting the wiener in the soup to warm it up. Good stuff!


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## Palmetto (May 16, 2017)

Here's how to nuke a hot dog without shriveling it to death  : place the dog in a bun; wrap the bun and dog in a paper towel; nuke on high for about 45 seconds. Depending on the strength of your micro, YMMV. Then top with chopped onions [a must], and other condiments to your liking. Jalapeno peppers does it for me, but I live in Texas!


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## AmtrakBlue (May 16, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Here's how to nuke a hot dog without shriveling it to death  : place the dog in a bun; wrap the bun and dog in a paper towel; nuke on high for about 45 seconds. Depending on the strength of your micro, YMMV. Then top with chopped onions [a must], and other condiments to your liking. Jalapeno peppers does it for me, but I live in Texas!


I put mine in the microwave for 30 seconds and add the bun at the 20 second mark. It does depend on the dog sometimes. My current dogs I found I need to only nuke it 25 seconds (and still add the bun at the 20 sec mark).


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## neroden (May 17, 2017)

I can eat the hot dogs but not the buns at the moment. :-(


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## neroden (May 17, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> For the record, the updated the menus on the trains that typically have diner lite service (48,49,50,51,58 and 59) are now posted.


And still no ingrdients lists. Losers. Do I have to file an ADA lawsuit to get them to pay attention, or can someone suggest a better first move? Maybe a personal letter to Wick?


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## tricia (May 17, 2017)

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > For the record, the updated the menus on the trains that typically have diner lite service (48,49,50,51,58 and 59) are now posted.
> ...


Personal letter to Wick definitely. If you were to sue, that'd provide evidence that you made a good faith effort to resolve the problem without litigation.


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## PVD (May 17, 2017)

I'm not sure the lawsuit would help. It is an area where the ADA is deficient. Not bad on non discrimination in employment or services because of allergies, but just about a zero on ingredients. FDA rules on disclosure of "major food allergens" still don't help people with the less common ones.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 17, 2017)

I'm going to be on the Meteor soon and will have dinner (just a short trip, so will only be dinner this time.) Of the two noodle bowls, is one less spicy than the other? (I'm ok with spices like ginger, just not super-spicy like hot peppers.) Which would you suggest?

I have already made up my mind to have the lemon tart, so don't need dessert suggestions.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 17, 2017)

I love spicy foods myself. Especially those from Mexican and Thai cultures. I also really enjoy fresh pico de gallo and/or fresh salsa on just about anything except for sweet foods. That being said I cannot remember having anything remotely "spicy" on Amtrak. In the past I've added salad dressing to Amtrak's eggs and veggies just to give them a bit of flavor.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 17, 2017)

Well, looking more closely, I see that one of the noodle bowls has a huge amount of calories, and the other says "Made by Amy's" (glorified TV dinner?). So I may have to stop trying to be vegetarian this trip and just go back to the steak. At least I'm not going all the way to Florida and would have to look at the cows in the agribusiness farms as I'm eating steak. 

Although they seem to have ruined the steak by having soybeans in the veggies. Am I imagining it, or was there a time when broccoli was the veggie? My ideal train menu would have a broccoli omelet for breakfast and broccoli as the standard veggie, but I have a feeling I would be greatly outvoted! 

Considering that my favorite hot dog (as in the discussion above) is right off a Philly street cart, and I have just been persuaded to try something in pink sauce from the cafeteria at work, I'm not sure why I'm so fussy about my train food! :giggle:


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## MARC Rider (May 17, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Back when the Hot Dogs were still very good. . .
> ...


Actually, there is a controversy in the Jewish world about whether Hebrew National products are kosher. The rabbis of my denomination say they are. Other groups have a different opinion. If you really want the gory details, read this: http://blog.rabbijason.com/2012/06/are-hebrew-national-dogs-kosher.html

Also, for those who are really into this, there's the issue of whether the bun was made with dairy products, which would make the resulting combination not kosher.


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## niemi24s (May 17, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, there is a controversy in the Jewish world about whether Hebrew National products are kosher. The rabbis of my denomination say they are. Other groups have a different opinion. If you really want the gory details, read this: http://blog.rabbijason.com/2012/06/are-hebrew-national-dogs-kosher.html
> Also, for those who are really into this, there's the issue of whether the bun was made with dairy products, which would make the resulting combination not kosher.


Thanks for the additional info. Was totally unaware of these sorts of things.


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## Manny T (May 17, 2017)

Interestingly enough, Amtrak IS aware of these things and talks about the Hebrew national dog + bun combination in its "food facts," which I quote:

"Hebrew National Hot Dog

All-beef, hot dog produced under strict Kosher rabbinical supervision.

Note that the bun is not Kosher therefore this item can’t be considered a true Kosher menu option."


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## neroden (May 18, 2017)

PVD said:


> I'm not sure the lawsuit would help. It is an area where the ADA is deficient. Not bad on non discrimination in employment or services because of allergies, but just about a zero on ingredients. FDA rules on disclosure of "major food allergens" still don't help people with the less common ones.


Well, it's been ruled that the allergies are disabilities. Providing an ingredients list *which Amtrak already has access to* seems like a very minimal reasonable accomodation to me. I'm not even asking that they provide any food I can eat, I'm just asking them to pass on the ingredients lists they get from their suppliers so I can *tell*.

I'll try writing a letter to Wick and the board members personally, since I've tried everyone lower down in the bureaucracy already over the past few years...


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## tricia (May 18, 2017)

Manny T said:


> Interestingly enough, Amtrak IS aware of these things and talks about the Hebrew national dog + bun combination in its "food facts," which I quote:
> 
> "Hebrew National Hot Dog
> 
> ...


In this context, "the bun is not Kosher" probably means that it wasn't produced in a certified-Kosher facility, under a rabbi's supervision. It might, or might not have dairy ingredients.

In case you're not confused yet: Even if the bun were certified kosher, if it had dairy ingredients it would NOT be kosher to eat it with a hot dog. And in any case, a yeast-risen roll would NOT be kosher during the week of Passover.


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## PVD (May 18, 2017)

I don't think it is unreasonable at all to try and make a situation better for someone. I was just pointing out that it is an area where rules and regulations are weak. Allergies certainly can be disabilities, but the rules for dealing with them are not forceful for the public, more so for employment. I still hold the door for people, offer to carry packages to the car for people, and on days when my hip allows me, I'll give up my seat on the bus. The fact that we meed rules to tell people what they should want to do anyway says alot about society.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 20, 2017)

Had dinner on the Meteor yesterday--steak (very good, even if smaller than they used to be), huge baked potato, veggies that tasted better than they look. Salad brought immediately without asking (I was in a roomette, so it did come with the meal). Absolutely delicious lemon tart for dessert.


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## Shortline (May 20, 2017)

They had to swap the diner out, on 19 with the one that arrived on 20, so left NY 4+ hours late. The shrimp and steak was good, better than I expected. No rolls or salad though. Breakfast was decent too, had the omlette grits and bacon. The new croissants aren't quite as good as the old ones but they make less of a mess, not being quite as flaky. And easier to deal with, more like a biscuit than a croisant.


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## Maverickstation (May 20, 2017)

PVD said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable at all to try and make a situation better for someone. I was just pointing out that it is an area where rules and regulations are weak. Allergies certainly can be disabilities, but the rules for dealing with them are not forceful for the public, more so for employment. I still hold the door for people, offer to carry packages to the car for people, and on days when my hip allows me, I'll give up my seat on the bus. The fact that we meed rules to tell people what they should want to do anyway says alot about society.


The issue of ingredient list showed promise when the Food Facts site included them for the Chef Inspired entrees (which are all pre made, off train), but then it fails to list them

on the newer heat and eat entrees for the Cardinal, CONO, and Lake Shore.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w432/h340/AMFF-SPRING-2017-40.pdf

Consistency has never been a strong point for Amtrak's food service.

Ken


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## neroden (May 20, 2017)

PVD said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable at all to try and make a situation better for someone.


I wasn't implying that you were. For your edification:

The term "reasonable accomodation" is a term of art in disability law. In the context of being a customer of a Amtrak, this is one of the clauses in the Code of Federal Regulations to which it refers:



> §36.302 Modifications in policies, practices, or procedures.
> 
> (a) General. A public accommodation shall make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when the modifications are necessary to afford goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the public accommodation can demonstrate that making the modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations.


Amtrak, like practically any business which provides any service to the general public, is considered a "public accomodation".

The question of whether or not "the public accommodation can demonstrate that making the modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" is usually described as whether the accomodation is "reasonable" or not.

This is another one of the clauses to which "reasonable accomodation" refers:



> §36.303 Auxiliary aids and services.
> 
> (a) General. A public accommodation shall take those steps that may be necessary to ensure that no individual with a disability is excluded, denied services, segregated or otherwise treated differently than other individuals because of the absence of auxiliary aids and services, unless the public accommodation can demonstrate that taking those steps would fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered or would result in an undue burden, i.e., significant difficulty or expense.


Publishing the ingredients lists which they receive from the suppliers already is hard to construe as an undue burden.

For a long time there was a question over whether serious allergies were considered a disability (i.e. is it legal to discriminate against people who have them), but this question was apparently settled a few years ago. This is actually the question which was not clear legally speaking; by contrast, the question of whether they have to make minor informational accomodations if it is considered a disability seems cut and dried.

I'm going to pursue a couple more avenues, starting with some certified mail to the very top (also, does Amtrak have an ADA coordinator / point person? That would be another place to write). I should ask y'all to help me make sure I have the right addresses.

If that doesn't work I think I should contact a disabiilty lawyer.


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## PVD (May 20, 2017)

The DOJ is very non committal on "remedy".Perhaps it is time to poke them.

https://www.foodallergy.org/file/ada-webinar-slides.pdf

Amtrak trains are covered separately under the law from the stations, but it mostly focuses on access and mobility.


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## neroden (May 20, 2017)

Ha. Thanks for the link. This is *ammo*. From page 17:

"5. What might a restaurant or other similar place of public accomodation need to do to accomodate an individual with celiac disease or other food allergies?".

...

"By way of example only, this may include: 1) answering questions from diners about menu item ingredients, where the ingredients are known"

The ingredients are known to Amtrak's suppliers and provided to Amtrak, especially since Amtrak buys prepackaged goods. (The suppliers may sometimes be vague but I'm not asking Amtrak to go further than the information its suppliers have.)

Amtrak, as an institution, continues to refuse to provide the ingredients either at the time *or* in advance, has refused in a *written letter*, has policies and procedures to throw away the ingredients information and the sourcing information, and collects the nutritional data off the suppliers' information statements for the "food facts" website while omitting the ingredients. I know for a fact the supplier information sheets they're getting that off of have the ingredients on them, because a lot of restaurants have pulled the supplier information sheets up for me.

I should be able to nail them to the wall. If I keep getting stonewalled, a lawsuit may be my only option. Here's hoping someone listens before it comes to that.


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## PVD (May 20, 2017)

The whole food service industry tries to get away with as much as they can. In NYC, the industry fought salt content warnings, and the health implications of elevated sodium are a hell of a lot more widespread than food allergies, they affect everyone.


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## RSG (May 27, 2017)

neroden said:


> I'm going to pursue a couple more avenues, starting with some certified mail to the very top (also, does Amtrak have an ADA coordinator / point person? That would be another place to write). I should ask y'all to help me make sure I have the right addresses.
> 
> If that doesn't work I think I should contact a disabiilty lawyer.


 If you haven't already done so in 2017, I would contact the Customer Relations department [via snail mail] and ask for an ingredient list in the menu items you're interested in (don't go overboard and 'demand' a complete ingredient list for all prepared menu items on all trains with served-to-order foodservice facilities). Politely mention you have allergies which makes this information crucial to your health and well-being as well as overall enjoyment of the onboard service.

Give them a few weeks. Odds are you'll get a finger-in-nose response about how difficult that information is to come by given the vast amount of different suppliers and sources from which the ingredients are provided---or, surprise, you'll get most of what you requested.

If you get the former response, then request the same information in another letter and mention that you were not provided with the information when inquired of the department which originally handled it. Mention that this has ADA implications and use the previously provided information as 'ammo'. Then send it to 60 Mass Ave NE with the following address header:

ADA COMPLIANCE

LEGAL DEPARTMENT

NATIONAL PASSENGER RAILROAD CORPORATION

Odds are pretty good this will get someone's attention and the information you have requested. No need to find out the name of the ADA coordinator (who, for better or for worse, may be somewhat new to the game and think of their job as only involving mobility and accessibility issues and therefore be unaware of any food or beverage concerns) or contact Wick Moorman. And send everything via regular mail for the first request to each department. Using Certified Mail often sets off alarm bells which result in unnecessary handling or else a rubber stamped signature receipt along with placement in the mail delivery tub with everything else, including the monthly copies of _Railroad Age_.

As always, be polite, non-snarky, and operate from a position of goodwill. My bet that the reason they don't already post this information online is because Aramark can't guarantee a consistent supply of the same ingredients to all distribution points for the duration of the menu cycle. This is no excuse for not attempting, but as we know with organizations like Amtrak, information is only widely provided when it can be expected to be consistently adhered to.


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## SteveSFL (May 28, 2017)

Just got back from CHI-EMY on the Zephyr and have a couple of observations about the dining experience vs when I was on the Zephyr a couple years ago.

The salads are definitely smaller. I had one that had one carrot and one tomato.

The new "Pork Sliders" lunch entree has been discontinued, apparently because of a problem with the design of the packaging that resulted in the product spoiling and "turning green."

Train pasta still isn't as good as restaurant pasta. I had the fettuccini carbonara enteee and the pasta was rubbery. I guess this is because it is prepared beforehand and reheated on the train.

The portions seemed smaller, although that's probably not a bad thing.

The lemon tart is pretty darn good, and I probably would have had the chocolate thing more than once had they not run out.

The cheesecake was served in the round plastic tub without any extras (strawberries/whipped cream).

The Zephyr dining crews still seem to be the surliest of all the trains I've ridden. Although most of the LD train LSA's are fairly rigid in their handling of reservations and waitlists, this one was overly obnoxious about it and then didn't even follow her own rules at times.

One night we noticed people from the seating scheduled :30 after ours were already getting their food before us. One of the people at my table asked the LSA and she looked at our somewhat empty table and said "you mean you guys haven't already finished?" She then went and checked and found out the server had "forgotten to drop the tickets." There was a very brief "oops" but not a real apology. Since three of us were sleeper passengers it's not like we could ask for a free meal, but we felt that the fourth guy, who was a coach passenger from England, should have his meal comped.

I guess that's not something Amtrak will do, because they kind of just ignored the suggestion and presented him with his $30 check. And then they had the nerve to try to rush him to pay (even though there were no more seatings.). Needless to say the server did not get a tip from any of us that night. I encouraged the guy from England to call Customer Relations. He said "what good would it do?" I told him he might get a voucher which he could apply to sleeping accommodations on another segment of his railpass journey.

All-in-all not a bad experience, but not the best I've had either.


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## Maverickstation (May 28, 2017)




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## Maverickstation (May 28, 2017)

My prior post shows Breakfast as served in Acela First Class. We took at 8:10 out of Boston on Saturday morning. Just after departing BOS we were given menus and orders were taken after the BBY passengers boarded. We rode to NYP and just before there orders for lunch were taken for pax riding further south, and lunch was to be served just past Newark.


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## Dakota 400 (May 28, 2017)

Looking at the Bar Selections available, I note that there are 2 Scotches but no Bourbon or Canadian Whiskey listed. Is it possible that the Lounge Car might stock some but not list them as being available?


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 30, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1495975941.099702.jpg


So that's where my broccoli omelet is hiding--on the Acela first class!  Looks delicious.


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## bretton88 (May 30, 2017)

Looks like the food has improved. My best train meal is still the breakfast I had on VIA Rails business class.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Palmetto (May 30, 2017)

What's the omelet stuffed with? Looks like cheese.


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## Palmetto (May 30, 2017)

Dakota 400 said:


> Looking at the Bar Selections available, I note that there are 2 Scotches but no Bourbon or Canadian Whiskey listed. Is it possible that the Lounge Car might stock some but not list them as being available?


Crown Royal is there on the first class menu. Curious that's it's missing from the café menu as well as a bourbon.


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## OBS (May 30, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at the Bar Selections available, I note that there are 2 Scotches but no Bourbon or Canadian Whiskey listed. Is it possible that the Lounge Car might stock some but not list them as being available?
> ...


We had Canadian Club as well as Jim Beam in NEC for years....neither sold much. People wanted, and now receive, Jack Daniels....


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## Dakota 400 (May 30, 2017)

OBS said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Dakota 400 said:
> ...



On my most recent three LD trips (Crescent, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief), I am fairly certain that Canadian Club Reserve was available in the Lounge Cars.

I gather from what you are saying in your post that I need to quickly develop a taste for an adult beverage other than what I prefer.


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## Maverickstation (May 30, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> What's the omelet stuffed with? Looks like cheese.


Yes, Boursin Cheese to be exact, and the omelet was quite good.

Here are the (3) menus that are currently rotating in Acela First Class Service, each on is up for 2 weeks at a clip.

The second menu is the current one.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/171/386/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0417.pdf

Ken


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## Palmetto (May 31, 2017)

Boursin cheese is very savory.


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## Anderson (Jun 1, 2017)

OBS said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > Dakota 400 said:
> ...


OBS,

As someone who probably put a respectable dent in the remaining stocks of Bailey's once it was dropping off the menu (and who was successfully upsold into loving a Bailey's, cognac, and hot chocolate by a retiring employee...points to her, she got me to be willing to spend $15 or so on a drink), I'm curious...why were the cordials dropped? The sell-by dates on those would seem to be pretty long by comparison to a lot of things and while I know not a huge number seemed to be sold (bad note on Amtrak vis-a-vis VIA is Amtrak not nudging folks for drink orders) it wouldn't seem to be a shrinkage-heavy item.

(To be fair, getting some Jack in my coffee and "manually" adding cream and sugar still works well enough for me...but it's not quite the same.)


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## OBS (Jun 1, 2017)

Anderson said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


Over the last couple years, it seems like the F&B dept. has become very "numbers" focused. If something doesn't sell a certain quantity on a regular basis, it has disappeared. I agree that non perishable items should have a little more tolerance, and it may have something to do with the Aramark contract, in terms of the numbers of items stocked/provisioned,,,IDK...but I do agree that some of the decisions made are frustrating.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 1, 2017)

OBS said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > OBS said:
> ...


I have no familiarity with Canadian Club. The name makes it sound like a carbonated mixer of some sort. Jim Beam is just about the sorriest major brand I've ever tried outside of Chivas. Neither of those options will be missed. That being said, Anderson brings up a good point about stocking a selection large enough to allow for interesting cocktails and employing supply side selling to move stock. I cannot recall ever being offered a cocktail at my seat or in my room or at my table while on Amtrak. Why is that? If Amtrak is hurting for money, or could simply benefit from making more of it, this would seem to be an easy way to help improve that situation. In my experience cocktails are almost always mentioned and provided at your seat on fights, even on short hops early in the morning. It's a similar experience in restaurants, even during the first seating of a weekend brunch. And yet I honestly cannot remember the last time someone on Amtrak offered me any sort of cocktail up-sell.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 1, 2017)

Canadian Club is a bar Whiskey on a par with Seagrams 7!

If you want good Canadian Whiskey go with Crown!


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## PVD (Jun 1, 2017)

Canadian Club (rye whiskey), been around more than 150 years. Al Capone used to smuggle it in from Windsor to Detroit. Have no idea what, if anything, they are selling as a substitute whiskey

Crown is the #1 selling Canadian whiskey in the US, used to be owned by Seagrams, sold off when they dissolved.

Trivia note - It is produced in Gimli, a town best known for the "Gimli Glider" a 767 that ran out of fuel and made a safe landing at the decommissioned air base.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 1, 2017)

Actually, I happen to own a bottle of Canadian club from 1945 (meaning it was actually distilled prewar- 1939 or earlier). It is an exceptionally nice Rye whiskey, better than Seagrams VO Gold, or Crown Royal Rye. The modern stuff is garbage, though.

Actually, if you are looking for a fine Rye whiskey, I suggest Weiser's Rye.

The truth of the matter is that liquor is a drug. I'm not judging, because I happen to have a severe addiction to it. And while I happen to be a collector of fine and old liquor, I mostly drink Seagram's Reserve dry gin, because it's acceptably good, 94 proof, and cheap. And when I'm on a trip and need my nightly fix, I really don't care what it is or how much it costs.

Amtrak is taking advantage of that fact. most people can't tell Jim Beam from High West, and quite a few can't tell a Rye from an Irish from a Bourbon from a Scotch. People who buy drinks on the train do so either because they have an addiction like me or because they want to loosen up and have a good time. What they are selling allows for that at high profit margins. They sell low-mid liquor for top shelf prices. Frankly, liquor sales should be a big profit engine for Amtrak, and they should use it as such.


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 1, 2017)

Liquor, wine, and beer sales major profit centers that allow many restaurants to operate limited hours with a substantial profit. The PCC would be an excellent location for upscale sales because the Cafe's have limited room for inventory. If Amtrak took advantage of a minimal wine and beer selection at Dinner, think of the additional profits,


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 1, 2017)

Not that VIA is making money... But they are constantly pushing alcahol. The Steward comes by to take drink orders and offer his recommendations with the various entrees... The Park Car has happy hours... All things that Amtrak could do.

But no... An actual response ive heard in an Amtrak dining car-

Guest - "what kind of wines do You have?"

Server - "we have a red and a white"

Guest- "what kind of white wine is it?"

Server "you want the white wine?"

Guest "well im not sure, what kind of wine is it"

Server "do you want wine or not?"

This was a few years ago on the crescent.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 1, 2017)

I prefer a rye whiskey with Canadian Club being my choice. Crown Royal is good, of course, but not one I would choose to order if both was available. (Never heard of Weiser's Rye, probably not available in Ohio, I'd guess.)

On my up-coming EB journey, I will ask if CC is stocked. If not, I may do an experiment to see how much Club Soda I need to add to make a scotch acceptable to my palate. Never had a Bloody Mary as a pre-dinner drink, but there is a first time for everything.

If all else fails, I can fall back on a white wine. But, there is a concern there: on my Sunset Limited trip, the Dining Car ran out of single serving bottles of white wine at dinner the first night after leaving New Orleans!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 2, 2017)

Canadian Club and standard Crown Royal are Canadian Whiskeys but they are not Ryes and have not been for decades. Crown Royal makes a Rye, and it's decent. JP Weiser's is a Canadian company, they make several varieties, one of which is Rye. I can't find it in most NJ stores (Roger Wilco has it) but is readily available in better PA state stores- it is legal to import PA liquor into NJ, but not the other way around. No idea about Ohio.


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## RSG (Jun 4, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not that VIA is making money... But they are constantly pushing alcahol. The Steward comes by to take drink orders and offer his recommendations with the various entrees... The Park Car has happy hours... All things that Amtrak could do.
> 
> But no... An actual response ive heard in an Amtrak dining car-
> 
> ...


 I can see bean counter-types begin to hyperventilate at the suggestion of a happy hour onboard AMTK trains, though it raises the old sales conundrum of "do we make more from selling more at a lesser price or selling less at a higher price?" It's hard to convince even the most experienced accounting professionals to consider discounting something that they have spent considerable time projecting sales figures for at a certain price point. (For proof of this, look at the dustbin of shuttered retail establishments that convinced only themselves that paying extra for their product and alleged service and/or ambience was a worthwhile endeavor.)

As for the wine selections, I seriously believe that not even a merit pay increase would motivate some service staff to learn the difference between a Merlot and a Moscato and know a Cabernet from a Chardonnay. I've asked which wines are currently on board the train I'm riding on and on occasion the response I've gotten is indeed literally the above "we have a red and a white". I've even pressed a bit and asked "Just a red and a white? No White Zinfandel?" I have, once or twice, gotten a puzzled look in return as if the unexpressed thought is "What in the heck is an infidel wine?" As an experienced Amtrak traveler, I know that most everything is Woodbridge, save for the instances in which Sutter Home White Zin is carried, so I'm ahead of the game on that (where newbies might not), but it would still be nice for the staff to learn what has been stocked on board and to at least be able to mention the brand name. The attitude behind the dialogue above is sadly all too common. Do some OBS not understand that many people base gratuities on total value of what is served? (Hint: more sales can result in more gratuities.) Discouraging sales often results in the exact opposite.


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 4, 2017)

It is surprising how many servers don't want to put the effort in to sell the extras. This was a big thing when I owned my restaurant, finally I did a contest on how much add ons were sold. The Servers were shocked how their tips rose during the competition. For some reason they couldn't equate the additional items to a larger tip.


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## Johanna (Jun 4, 2017)

Though not alcohol, I've definitely had dining car servers try to "upsell" me on extras, like convincing me to have dessert when I was wavering on whether I wanted it. On my most recent trip, they were really pushing the option to have guacamole on everything. I thought it was just because it was something new - it didn't occur to me that they might have been trying for bigger tips. (Though I'm not sure how well that would have worked. The reality of the situation, for me anyway, is that I board the train with a certain supply of small bills, and the dining car staff are probably going to get all of them over the course of the trip unless they do something really offensive.)


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## Manny T (Jun 4, 2017)

Anyone who is really interested in wine, and is traveling Amtrak in a sleeper, will certainly bring a bottle of his or her preferred wine on board to uncork and drink at leisure. To expect Amtrak to have a "decent" selection, or any selection, and its personnel to have a grasp of wine beyond "red or white" is like going into a Boston Market or Applebee's with the same expectations.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 4, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> An actual response I've heard in an Amtrak dining car-
> 
> Guest - "what kind of wines do You have?"
> 
> ...


Same here and it's been that way for many years now. Rather than Amtrak training their staff to have some pride in their work the staff have simply trained the customers to lower their expectations.


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## Johanna (Jun 4, 2017)

I expect the personnel in any establishment to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the products they're trying to sell - and if they're asked for information about their products that they don't immediately know, they should be willing to go and check, rather than making stuff up or insulting the customer for asking. In a restaurant that doesn't serve wine, the staff doesn't need to know anything about wine. But Amtrak does serve wine, so the dining car staff should be aware, at the very very least, that there _are_ types of wine other than "red and white," and that passengers might want to know what kind they're getting. It's not like the dining car menu is so extensive that this kind of basic information should take that long to learn.

I watched a similar exchange a couple of years ago on the SWC. One of my tablemates at dinner was trying to get a cup of herbal tea for after her meal. She asked our server for "chamomile or something similar." The server said "Oh, so how about Earl Grey?" She cringed, and so did I. I don't expect Amtrak staff to have an extensive knowledge of Darjeelings, matchas, and formosa oolongs, let alone offer them, but is it too much to expect them to know that there's a difference between black tea and herbal tea, and that a customer who specifically asks for one is almost certainly not going to be happy with the other?


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## Manny T (Jun 4, 2017)

Yes, it is imho. As an herbal tea drinker who has been offered Lipton's black tea 100,000 times too many, I always bring a couple of my favorite herbal tea bags with me on any Amtrak journey, and ask for hot water.

The problem is relying too much on an unreliable, poorly trained, staff that provides inconsistent service across the whole of Amtrak. You will be disappointed from time to time. I hope they get the big things right (safety, transportation, on time performance, courtesy). To expect them to get the little amenities right is stretching things imho.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 4, 2017)

Manny... I'm confused by your post? Are you suggesting that it's unreasonable to want Amtrak to provide better service?


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## fillyjonk (Jun 4, 2017)

Manny T said:


> Yes, it is imho. As an herbal tea drinker who has been offered Lipton's black tea 100,000 times too many, I always bring a couple of my favorite herbal tea bags with me on any Amtrak journey, and ask for hot water.
> 
> The problem is relying too much on an unreliable, poorly trained, staff that provides inconsistent service across the whole of Amtrak. You will be disappointed from time to time. I hope they get the big things right (safety, transportation, on time performance, courtesy). To expect them to get the little amenities right is stretching things imho.


Speaking of inconsistency: I am OK with Lipton's (though should really get into the habit of carrying my own bags of a preferred brand) but several times when I've requested hot tea with breakfast, they bring out a little cup of herbal bags, all of which contain chamomile - which I cannot have (allergies). Which then I have to send back. It's never been the case that "oops, we're out of real tea," it's more like they neglect to bring it as a choice.

If I specify "tea," I mean Camellia sinensis. If I wanted herb tea, I'd SAY "herbal tea" or carry my own.

It's also always a crapshoot whether they bring a lemon wedge with it or not. I don't bother to ask if they don't because they're usually busy at breakfast and sometimes they don't even HAVE lemon wedges....also with the oatmeal, sometimes you get brown sugar and raisins, sometimes just brown sugar, sometimes nothing.


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## Johanna (Jun 4, 2017)

I guess I don't "expect" the dining car servers to know their way around the menu any more than I "expect" staff to be courteous or the trains to run on time, but I also think it's a goshdarn shame that they've let our "expectations" sink so low. (I also don't understand why it's a priori unreasonable to expect safety, transportation, punctuality, _and_ competent food service, since in most cases it's a different set of people responsible for each of those things.)

Whenever I travel anywhere, I bring a stash of teabags in varieties I like. Though they're mostly for using with hotel coffee makers, it's probably not a bad idea to start bringing a few with me to the dining car.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 4, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Guest - "what kind of wines do You have?"
> 
> Server - "we have a red and a white"
> 
> ...


Reminds me of one time a bunch of us went out to dinner...

My friend - "what kind of sodas do you have?"

Server - "we have coke, sprite, rootbeer, ginger ale..."

My friend - "ginger ale, do you know were they grew the ginger?"

Server - "you want the ginger ale?"

My friend - "I am not sure without knowing more about it."


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 4, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > An actual response I've heard in an Amtrak dining car-
> ...


To be fair... I rode the empire builder last November and the server new about the different wines and which ones were "dry" when asked by a table mate of mine.

And when riding the sunset earlier this year, I asked about the different white wines and she told me the different types and which ones came in by the glass and by the half bottle.


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 4, 2017)

Unfortunately, some of the servers, like some workers around the USA, are just there for their paycheck, unhappy they are required to do tasks during the hours on duty, so they do the absolutely minimum. At Amtrak, most of these people are protected, so they earn a good wage over $20/hr, caring little about the passengers eating in the DC. Then there are others who take pride in their work no matter what they are paid, doing their best to be knowledgeable about all the products in the DC. These are the folks that don't get paid enough for the pleasure they bring everyone they serve.


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## Manny T (Jun 4, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Manny... I'm confused by your post? Are you suggesting that it's unreasonable to want Amtrak to provide better service?


CZ, it's a question of expectations. Amtrak can certainly provide better service, and should. But I doubt Amtrak can ever provide "first class" service, the way staff in the first class or business class section of an airplane can. First class and business class flight attendants can tell you all about the wine selection on board, let you taste everything, and discuss it with you. I would never expect that on Amtrak. If they can do better than "red or white," I'd be happy. As it is, I try to go with the flow and keep my expectations low.


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## tommylicious (Jun 4, 2017)

Well...as long as you're not comparing Amtrak to United "Polaris". I flew Polaris back from Europe in April and the flight attendants were absolutely terrible.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 5, 2017)

Manny T said:


> Amtrak can certainly provide better service, and should. But I doubt Amtrak can ever provide "first class" service, the way staff in the first class or business class section of an airplane can. First class and business class flight attendants can tell you all about the wine selection on board, let you taste everything, and discuss it with you. I would never expect that on Amtrak.


Why not? Amtrak sleeper tickets often cost as much or even more than first class airfare. Amtrak trains have the benefit of more room and more load bearing capacity compared to even the largest widebody aircraft, let alone the tiny region jets that have taken over much of our domestic network. What logical reason does Amtrak have for charging more and giving less? If anything a train should be able to exceed the service levels of the best airlines.



tommylicious said:


> Well...as long as you're not comparing Amtrak to United "Polaris". I flew Polaris back from Europe in April and the flight attendants were absolutely terrible.


Oddly enough there seems to be some sort of correlation between Amtrak fans and United loyalists. I'm curious to know more but the details are sketchy and defensive. :lol:


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 5, 2017)

I found the PCC Attendants quite knowledgeable on the wines they had for the wine tasting. May be they have a good attitude, why they have the PCC, thus must have guides they read or view to be up on the wines they are serving.


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## ehbowen (Jun 5, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> I found the PCC Attendants quite knowledgeable on the wines they had for the wine tasting. May be they have a good attitude, why they have the PCC, thus must have guides they read or view to be up on the wines they are serving.


PCC Car:




PPC Car:


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry Typo, meant PPC.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 5, 2017)

tommylicious said:


> Well...as long as you're not comparing Amtrak to United "Polaris". I flew Polaris back from Europe in April and the flight attendants were absolutely terrible.


I have flown Singapore Airlines from Singapore to SFO in Business Class. While the service and amenities were somewhat better than U.S. airlines international flights that I have flown, my experience failed to meet my expectations after all of the hype I had learned about Singapore Airlines. For example, a Rib-Eye Steak that was too well done, thus tough/flavorless. (Amtrak's steaks that I have ordered have been better.)


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## BoulderCO (Jun 6, 2017)

Also keep in mind that most first class flights are only a few hours long with one meal. LD trains can be 2 or 3 days with many meals. So the incremental cost structure for AmTrak in terms of food, labor and amortized cost of the space you take up on a trip is higher than for the airlines.

I don't mean this as a total apology for AmTrak. I get sticker shock when I look at the typical sleeper ticket, given the quality of the "room", food, and often surly service provided.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 6, 2017)

BoulderCO said:


> Also keep in mind that most first class flights are only a few hours long with one meal. LD trains can be 2 or 3 days with many meals. So the incremental cost structure for AmTrak in terms of food, labor and amortized cost of the space you take up on a trip is higher than for the airlines.
> 
> I don't mean this as a total apology for AmTrak. I get sticker shock when I look at the typical sleeper ticket, given the quality of the "room", food, and often surly service provided.


Slightly off topic (please forgive), but I got sticker shock when I checked the cost of booking my Roomette on the Empire Builder in July as compared with what I paid a few months ago. The price increased by more than $400!

Booking as early as one can surely paid off for me!


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## snvboy (Jun 6, 2017)

Heck, I don't care if they don't know their red from their right. Some trips I'm just thankful they remembered that I ordered any wine at all!


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## niemi24s (Jun 6, 2017)

Dakota 400 said:


> Slightly off topic (please forgive), but I got sticker shock when I checked the cost of booking my Roomette on the Empire Builder in July as compared with what I paid a few months ago. The price increased by more than $400!


Only $400? The current difference between high and low bucket Roomette upcharges (as well as the total fares) for the entire EB route is $506.

An AmSnag search just now for CHI to SEA (first 30 days in July) shows the following availability: 7 dates with Roomettes; 1 date with Family Room; 3 dates with Bedroom available. Supply & demand at work.


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## Woodcut60 (Jun 7, 2017)

I was surprised that they have special menus, i.e. not mentioned on the Menu. On the *Capitol Limited* last year a friend of mine asked for the special and it was really delicious. We had Pork Shank with a nice sauce and mashed potatoes.


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## erinch13 (Jun 8, 2017)

Back to the food ingredient and food allergy question. My son, who is now 30, was born with anaphylactic food allergies to all milk, egg, tree nut, peanut. Even a tiny amount of whey or sodium caseinate, which are common and at that time not listed as ingredients, would require immediate epinephrine.

He almost died after eating Golden Grahams, which did not list the butter based flavoring because the FDA did not regulate flavoring. We were part of the class action suit that got the congress to require listing at least major allergens. Nonetheless, we had to check the food labels every single time we bought any food item because they change. And bread, even on the same label, may shift ingredients by factories.

I would never count an ingredient list to be accurate, unless I read the one on the packaging of the actual food item, if you are dealing with anaphylactic allergies. In particular on a train where getting to an ER after the initial 2 self administered epi-pens might be impossible.

I am not defending shoddy customer service, but food ingredient lists are not static, and are out of the control of purchasers.


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## Skyline (Jun 9, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Canadian Club and standard Crown Royal are Canadian Whiskeys but they are not Ryes and have not been for decades. Crown Royal makes a Rye, and it's decent. JP Weiser's is a Canadian company, they make several varieties, one of which is Rye. I can't find it in most NJ stores (Roger Wilco has it) but is readily available in better PA state stores- it is legal to import PA liquor into NJ, but not the other way around. No idea about Ohio.


I have been drinking Seagram's VO for decades, as I prefer it to Canadian Club. They are both Canadian whiskeys, very similar in taste, but I can tell the difference. Several on here have called CC a Rye whiskey. I agree with you -- It is not, according to labels. And it certainly does not taste like anything labelled "Straight Rye Whiskey."

The current-day Seagrams (successors to the brand) makes BOTH a Crown Royal "Blended Canadian Whisky" and a "Straight Rye Whisky" and their labels clearly state which is which.

There are a few bourbons which are often referred to as Rye whiskey. What a particular batch is called and what it is labelled should not be confused. Bourbon has a sweet, smoky ambience while Rye is a spicy, grainy, hard-edged version of bourbon.

If you live in Canada, it is a bit more confusing but since we're talking about Amtrak in the USA, let's agree that Bourbon, blended Whiskey (including those labelled Canadian which typically spell it 'Whisky"), and Rye are three distinct products. Wouldn't it be better to simply go with whatever the label says it is? 

BTW, I rode the Canadian Toronto > Vancouver last month. They did not serve Seagrams VO, but did serve Canadian Club and the bartender and her superior commented they were basically the same so Via chose CC. Hmmmm.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 9, 2017)

Skyline said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Canadian Club and standard Crown Royal are Canadian Whiskeys but they are not Ryes and have not been for decades. Crown Royal makes a Rye, and it's decent. JP Weiser's is a Canadian company, they make several varieties, one of which is Rye. I can't find it in most NJ stores (Roger Wilco has it) but is readily available in better PA state stores- it is legal to import PA liquor into NJ, but not the other way around. No idea about Ohio.
> ...


Thank you for your post and information. I continue to learn!


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## Skyline (Jun 10, 2017)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Reminds me of one time a bunch of us went out to dinner...
> 
> My friend - "what kind of sodas do you have?"
> 
> ...


Hmmmm. Nothing like the cook in a diner who got my Cheeseburger Platter order and yelled out to the counter, "Do you want CHEESE on that cheeseburger?" So glad this would never happen on a train, right?


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