# Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers



## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

Went to visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania who recently turned 100 via a roundtrip Amtrak trainride. There were delays at first, and a frantic peddle to the metal bus ride to catch a connection we'd missed by 8 hours, a crazy man who they didn't do anything about who wandered the train well dressed but shoeless and missing a toe making no sense and touching people inappropriately, and poorly planned out smoking stops that were shortened or cancelled due to delays. But all in all, most Amtrak on board and station employees were friendly, efficient, and helpful. They let me practice my sax twice a day in the bar car to the compliments of many other passengers and I found many interesting conversations and made new friends. The food wasn't as expensive as I'd thought in the Dining Car and the conductor who put off dealing with the toeless lunatic was even amusing as when we'd tell her, she'd come back at us with "You think that's crazy? We had a guy on here once who....." and then proceed to tell us horrific tales of lunatics on the train "....and started into swinging that sledge hammer and....", "....And there was urine all over everybody! And it was that real rancid urine too....", "And that's the tale of 'the Zephyr Succubus, or the walking dead woman of track 29", "....but it turns out the guy who'd escaped from the mental institution was on Amtrak the whole 3 weeks he was missing and didn't even have a ticket!" till finally she had a run in herself with old 9 toes and there was a two hour wait while the 911 squad came, talked him down, and hauled him away. Then there was another hour to wait as the weenie English teacher guy who was correcting everybody's grammar had a Sensitivity Melt-down over Crazy 9 toes getting hauled away. "WWwwhhhyyy?! (Suh-ahb sob sob sobbity sob sob) Wwhhyyy is the world oh so very Cuh-rue-el?! (s-s-s-s-o-o-o-b-B)" And the two Amish couples who got all hot on each other after examining a cell phone close up. It was all very adventurous.

  The return trip to San Francisco was going well....uneventful, relaxing, beautiful scenery....until the conductors changed at the end of Colorado. I'd noted two undercover cops during our Denver stop and chatted it up with them with small talk trying to feel them out and immediatly after they shook me off, they rigorously searched a Latino family who I surmised later thought I'd somehow prompted the search as I'd been seen talking with these offensive cops. I was already asleep for the night (I thought) when I woke to this Kris May new conductor shoving me into wakefulness with two of the Latino kids pointing at me. She demanded I follow her to the downstairs isolation compartment where this obsessive sneezer guy fidgeted and paced and played a banjo he admitted to having no idea how to tune or play and made me bring my bags. Why? Complaints of body odor that only she, the Hispanic family who thought I'd narced them out, and this couple who'd been annoyed at my negative assessment of their plan to sue Amtrak could smell. 

  From a sound sleep to having to explain I'm an AIDS patient but with no current opportunistic infections to cause any odor, that I'd been on the train for 3 days but had changed my underwear and socks each day, alternated 2 pairs of clean pants and two clean shirts, AND washed up each a.m. and p.m. in the tiny "cheap seats" train bathrooms so it was unlikely that I stank as accused. She noted 6 complaints (all from folks who'd thought they had a gripe against me) and got real confrontational when I ventured out of my cell for a beer a little later as evidentily I had lost my aisle and club car privledges too. She made me wait in the sightseeing car while downstairs she loudly argued insistence that her coworkers team with her against me but the bartender vouched for me against her claims I must be drunk when actually had celebrated my adventure with a Bloody Mary at breakfast time and one beer with my dinner. The new conservative male conductor who refused to give his name (Kris May only gave hers after I insisted 3 times) at least didn't think I was as bad as Ms May claimed and couldn't give a definitive answer when I asked him if I smelled bad. I had to go by my old seat each time I left and returned to my hell hole with the sneezy banjo guy which I only got to do twice.

:angry:  Each time I got to my old seat at the top of the stairs the guy who had been trying to fabricate a lawsuit against Amtrak earlier would rip into me! Finally he threatened to throw me down the stairs if I passed through again and I then went running for the conductor with him chasing behind me! He beat me to the male conductor claiming I was back there harassing the people who'd made the bogus complaints about me and the conductor made a snap judgement to put me off the train and didn't care about the guy threatening me or the fact that none of the other passengers thought I was a problem. At that we were pulling into Provo, Utah and they had the cops screeching up and the boarded to the histrionic rantings of Conductor May demanding I be removed! I cooperated and humiliated I was searched and asked leading questions but they found no reason to arrest me but made a stink when I told them I had AIDS because I should have informed them immediatly they said as I questioned why revealing this to them 10 seconds after meeting them wasn't immediate enough. They warmed up as they realized that for whatever reason; my long hair and beard? Stage name of Lucifer? My openness about my homosexuality? My frank disclosures of my AIDS status?, I had gotten a bum rap. They called me a cab and left and although the cabbie tried to keep me from riding with him by denying the $48 quote to the Salt Lake City Airport he'd given the Provo cops for me asking first if I had $65, acting annoyed that I did but steadily rose the fare (no meter) till when it hit $110 and I saw a long term parking area I bellowed "STOP THIS CAR!" threw a crumpled fifty at him and scurried like "The Fugitive" with my saxophone and two heavy packs up the steep highway embankment, sliding frantically in the landscaping cedar chips to the airport's employee lot. I begged my way onto an employee shuttle, had San Francisco friends get me a flight in a Winnebego with wings then an upgrade in Reno to a Bluebird School bus with wings, and despite the $333 airfare that I cannot afford, was grateful to get home this past Friday 4/13/07 where even after all this and a sleepless night in the airport, and running from rip off in a heavy coat dragging major poundage of belongings, I still didn't smell bad swear the friends who picked me up.

<_<  I figure Amtrak AT LEAST owes me an apology for forever scarring what will probably be my last ever visit with Gramom, $333 for airfare, and $50 for the cab. What an absolute nightmare.


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## jg greenwood (Apr 16, 2007)

Lucifer said:


> Went to visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania who recently turned 100 via a roundtrip Amtrak trainride. There were delays at first, and a frantic peddle to the metal bus ride to catch a connection we'd missed by 8 hours, a crazy man who they didn't do anything about who wandered the train well dressed but shoeless and missing a toe making no sense and touching people inappropriately, and poorly planned out smoking stops that were shortened or cancelled due to delays. But all in all, most Amtrak on board and station employees were friendly, efficient, and helpful. They let me practice my sax twice a day in the bar car to the compliments of many other passengers and I found many interesting conversations and made new friends. The food wasn't as expensive as I'd thought in the Dining Car and the conductor who put off dealing with the toeless lunatic was even amusing as when we'd tell her, she'd come back at us with "You think that's crazy? We had a guy on here once who....." and then proceed to tell us horrific tales of lunatics on the train "....and started into swinging that sledge hammer and....", "....And there was urine all over everybody! And it was that real rancid urine too....", "And that's the tale of 'the Zephyr Succubus, or the walking dead woman of track 29", "....but it turns out the guy who'd escaped from the mental institution was on Amtrak the whole 3 weeks he was missing and didn't even have a ticket!" till finally she had a run in herself with old 9 toes and there was a two hour wait while the 911 squad came, talked him down, and hauled him away. Then there was another hour to wait as the weenie English teacher guy who was correcting everybody's grammar had a Sensitivity Melt-down over Crazy 9 toes getting hauled away. "WWwwhhhyyy?! (Suh-ahb sob sob sobbity sob sob) Wwhhyyy is the world oh so very Cuh-rue-el?! (s-s-s-s-o-o-o-b-B)" And the two Amish couples who got all hot on each other after examining a cell phone close up. It was all very adventurous.   The return trip to San Francisco was going well....uneventful, relaxing, beautiful scenery....until the conductors changed at the end of Colorado. I'd noted two undercover cops during our Denver stop and chatted it up with them with small talk trying to feel them out and immediatly after they shook me off, they rigorously searched a Latino family who I surmised later thought I'd somehow prompted the search as I'd been seen talking with these offensive cops. I was already asleep for the night (I thought) when I woke to this Kris May new conductor shoving me into wakefulness with two of the Latino kids pointing at me. She demanded I follow her to the downstairs isolation compartment where this obsessive sneezer guy fidgeted and paced and played a banjo he admitted to having no idea how to tune or play and made me bring my bags. Why? Complaints of body odor that only she, the Hispanic family who thought I'd narced them out, and this couple who'd been annoyed at my negative assessment of their plan to sue Amtrak could smell.
> 
> From a sound sleep to having to explain I'm an AIDS patient but with no current opportunistic infections to cause any odor, that I'd been on the train for 3 days but had changed my underwear and socks each day, alternated 2 pairs of clean pants and two clean shirts, AND washed up each a.m. and p.m. in the tiny "cheap seats" train bathrooms so it was unlikely that I stank as accused. She noted 6 complaints (all from folks who'd thought they had a gripe against me) and got real confrontational when I ventured out of my cell for a beer a little later as evidentily I had lost my aisle and club car privledges too. She made me wait in the sightseeing car while downstairs she loudly argued insistence that her coworkers team with her against me but the bartender vouched for me against her claims I must be drunk when actually had celebrated my adventure with a Bloody Mary at breakfast time and one beer with my dinner. The new conservative male conductor who refused to give his name (Kris May only gave hers after I insisted 3 times) at least didn't think I was as bad as Ms May claimed and couldn't give a definitive answer when I asked him if I smelled bad. I had to go by my old seat each time I left and returned to my hell hole with the sneezy banjo guy which I only got to do twice.
> 
> ...


 

So many replies to your......questionable experience comes to mind!! Have you ever considered writing works of fiction?


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## Grill Master (Apr 16, 2007)

Theres 2 sides to every story. Sounds like there might be 4 or 5 sides to this story.


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## jccollins (Apr 16, 2007)

You describe so many "issues"... yet you seem to be at the heart/the source of each of them. It sounds as if the crew treated you as humanely as possible given your condition on board the train.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

Guest said:


> jg greenwood said:
> 
> 
> > Lucifer said:
> ...


If you are questioning the validity of my claim sir, then I am offended. I realize this site is full of Amtrak Train lovers and for some, this love may be blind but know how very crushed I feel, as a train lover myself, to be treated as badly as I was treated.

 I was one of the few passengers defending Amtrak after the Eastbound portion of my trip as all others were swearing never to ride Amtrak again. I explained that this would be giving into the bullies. The freight Lines who now own the tracks that Amtrak rents from them could be alot more cooperative about scheduling their Freight Trains that take priority over the passenger trains, around the needs of travellers and the strong airline lobbyists should be considered less agreeably by an administration that okays the continued cutting of Amtrak staff. Most recently I'm told that the Brakemen were let go and I am amazed that remaining staff has done such a good job of assuming the work of positions now cut. The company as a whole is left to answer for the outrageous treatment I recieved sure, but only the two Utah Conductors as individuals were out of line. It's Amtrak's responsibility to prevent people like this from harming passengers like these 2 harmed me.


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## TransAtlantic (Apr 16, 2007)

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

Grill Master said:


> Theres 2 sides to every story. Sounds like there might be 4 or 5 sides to this story.


Yeah....and my side was never even heard until now. They didn't WANT to hear my side. They wanted to name me as the source of their problems....one guy. An easy mindset, mob mentality, and this was very much a witch hunt. In their minds if they made it all my fault, when they got rid of me all of their problems should have gone with me.

I was in seemingly good standing with everyone on board before the two Utah Conductors weren't able to see past their own prejudices. I'm thinking that maybe while I slept I might have passed some gas but still, their behavior was over the top.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

TransAtlantic said:


> I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!


And legally how can they insist you not leave the train for whatever reason and with a ticket, get right back on? No company can make you stay within their jurisdiction. And it's none of their business what people do while off the train.

I was rolling with these expected inconveniences though. It was the way they handled the problem at the end that they failed miserably on. If I was as stinky as they claimed, then why didn't they offer me a shower? That certainly would have been a much more reasonable solution than to let so many people be disrupted and a bully who threatened to throw me down the stairs only gets rewarded for his thuggery? Crazy. So he'll go on to bully somebody else...why not? This behavior seems to pay off for him.Or why didn't they offer or suggest I move to the other coach car that was as empty as the one I was riding? Into the car where the people voiced support of my passenger status? By the time that solution occurred to me it was too late and it's the conductor's JOB to be familiar enough with train travel to come up with solutions like these and they didn't.


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## Grill Master (Apr 16, 2007)

> I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!


Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2007)

Lucifer said:


> TransAtlantic said:
> 
> 
> > I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!
> ...


It's not a matter of legality, it's a matter of people not understanding that wandering away from the train will probably mean that they get left behind. And it does happen, despite the warnings from the crew. On my trip last June on the Coast Starlight, one passenger didn't obey that warning and walked into the station. Five minutes later I heard the station manager calling the train on my scanner and asking the conductor to find and secure that passenger's luggage, since his luggage was still on it's way to Seattle, even the the unfortunate passenger was no longer on his way to Seattle.


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2007)

Grill Master said:


> Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak


Well rent might be the wrong word, but Amtrak does nonetheless pay the freight companies for passage, and under the law Amtrak does have the right of both passage on the tracks and priority over freight. Now it can easily be argued that Amtrak doesn't pay enough for passage, but they do nonetheless pay for passage.


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## Grill Master (Apr 16, 2007)

True, your right.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

jccollins said:


> You describe so many "issues"... yet you seem to be at the heart/the source of each of them. It sounds as if the crew treated you as humanely as possible given your condition on board the train.


I was sound asleep when the trouble started. I'd gotten along well with everyone on board until then. I was even invited down to the bar car by the bartender! repeatedly! to practice sax after the first night of practice. I defended Amtrak through the smoking issues, the delays, the crazy guy with a missing toe, the problematic English Teacher who had to be comforted after the toe guy was hauled off. How am I the center of any of those issues? The people who seemed to have a grudge and acted on it were the guy and gal who were trying to cook up a story they could use to sue Amtrak because some "mystery passenger" had supposedly pushed past the girl hard enough to make her fall and scrape her elbow and I only voiced that they couldn't possibly expect to win a case against the railroad for the supposed rudeness of a non Amtrak employee. And the unfortunate Hispanic Family who seemed to assume I'd prompted the plainclothesmen to search them just because I'd spoken to the cops out of my own curiosity and had no clue that anyone was about to be searched. The crew INhumanely shook me out of a sound sleep and would not take any fair measures to solve the problem at hand. Even if the the small handful of people just didn't like me and signs of potential conflict were everywhere, why did they put me in a downstairs seat that was right there among the people who detested me with the only way in or out of the new seat was to walk past them? And I only left and came back twice and I wasn't challenging anyone but was being hassled and threatened! I was silent until I was confronted with threats of physical violence.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> > TransAtlantic said:
> ...


But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.

I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

Grill Master said:


> > I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!
> 
> 
> Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak


That's what the conductor outta Chicago told us as a group. She even described the Freight Train folks as Amtrak's landlords.


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## Mike S. (Apr 16, 2007)

I might have a problem with someone playing a sax on the train. I'm sure it sounds nice, but it's not my thing.


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## Lucifer (Apr 16, 2007)

Mike S. said:


> Who the F plays a sax on the train? I'd be irritated if I had to listen to that. Two words "Checked Baggage"


I play well, play softly,was willing to stop if anybody voiced even the slightest problem with it, the bartender going west kept inviting me to play, my playing seemed to bring in business to the bar car, and I got nothing but positive feeback about my music. So it seems you would have been the only person who'd have a problem with it. And I'll tell you who the F plays sax on the train. Good musicians! That's who. Good musicians who stick to a rigorous rehearsal schedule. Oh....and my sax is in the key of E flat, not F.


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## AmtrakCrescent20 (Apr 16, 2007)

Wooooooooow!!!!! I'll say I've never heard of anything like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First about the crazy people: I've read many horror stories about lunatics- and it does seem that that guy was a mild case.

Second, I've never heard of being kicked off the train for body odor!!! Anyone who say takes a trip from LA to NYC and is on the train for 3 nights would naturally have body odor. They certainly couldn't arrest you for that, unless I've really missed something.

As for the person supposedly lying about harrassment...I really don't have anything to say but what suprisingly no one here has mentioned-talk to Amtrak. This is such an unusual situation that it is beyond just an email or simple phone call.


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2007)

Lucifer said:


> But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.


If you're flying on an airplane from say New York to Dallas, but your plane goes through Chicago, are you allowed to get off to smoke? I think not. Yes, other people get off because they wanted to go to Chicago. But unless you have to change planes, they aren't going to allow you to get off just to smoke.

Are you being held against your will? I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure, but I would tend to think that it could be reasonably argued that you agreed to those terms of transportation when you purchased your ticket.

And the other side of the coin is that this is being done in part for safety, in part because no passenger has the legal right to delay a train. In fact you can be arrested for doing so without a good reason. Should 250 other passengers have to be delayed just because 5 want to smoke? Additionally this also comes back around to protecting the passenger who does want to smoke. What do you think is going to happen if someone does get off to smoke and they weren't told not to do so, and the train then pulls out without them?

They are going to be mad. They are going to insist that Amtrak both compensate them and still get them to their destination. Whereas if they are told not to get off and do so of their own volition, then they have no one to blame when they get left behind.

Now, all that said, I a non-smoker still do wish that Amtrak had not changed its policy and removed the smoking penalty boxes (as they were called) from the lounge cars on the single level cars and from some of the coaches on the bi-level cars. Yes part of the reason that those rooms were removed was because of complaints by some non-smokers. However, the smokers themselves do share some of the blame for their removal too. Some smokers would prop the door open, since aparently they couldn't handle having the smoke around them after they exhaled. This of course then spread the smoke through the car. I know many attendants that would have to repeatedly remove things holding the door open.

Additionally I'm sad to say that some were pigs in that penalty box. That cost Amtrak extra money to have to keep cleaning the rooms, sometimes almost needing to hose the darn room down.

So unfortunately for smokers, because some couldn't follow the rules and play nice, the penalty boxes were removed from all the cars and Amtrak went non-smoking, with the exception of the Auto Train. Now smokers must wait for the appointed station stops that have enough time to permit people to get off the train. But when most stops are supposed to be under 2 to 3 minutes, by the time you get the people who are disembarking there off and those boarding on, it doesn't leave extra time for an anxious smoker to be jumping off and back on, as well as huffing and puffing for a minute.


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## AmtrakWPK (Apr 16, 2007)

On a train from, say, New York to Miami, there is a strong inference that you are expecting to get on at New York and get off at Miami, otherwise you would have bought a ticket to an intermediate destination. There will be some stops that are normally long enough in duration (crew changes and refueling) where you could probably expect to be able to get off and stretch your legs for a few minutes. At most other stops you can reasonably expect that if you get off the train you will have to make alternate arrangements to continue your journey, because the train will have departed that station without you. An admonishment not to get off or you will be left behind is not being kept against your will any more than a flight attendant who kept you from opening an emergency exit and walking off the airplane at 30,000 feet altitude would be keeping you against your will. The trains typically already are running late from freight interference, and they don't need the assistance, in running additionally late, that waiting for a passenger who was told not to get off at that station but got off anyway, would provide. As a fellow passenger, I would be ready, willing, and able to give such a passenger a piece of my mind (well, a very small piece, I can't afford to give away a large piece :lol: ), for being a sufficient jerk that he or she made the rest of us that much later than we already were, simply because of a substance addiction that they were unwilling to break. I don't care if he has AIDS or athlete's foot or three heads. That passenger's addiction cannot be allowed to affect the proper operation of the train and to further muck up the schedules of a hundred or so fellow passengers.


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## daveyb99 (Apr 17, 2007)

With all due respect, this is one of the most disjointed and rambling stories I have ever heard.

But let me summarize:

A sax-player with long hair, a beard and AIDS traveling with two heavy packs (but only one change of clothes) on a three-day Amtrak trip delayed by a nine-toed lunatic is tossed off in Provo by a Conductor with histrionic rantings about the accused made by some Latino children and a slip-and-fall expert then stiffs a cab driver for $65 for a 50-mile $110 cab ride.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I, too, would love to hear the REST of the story..................


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## Lucifer (Apr 17, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> > But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.
> ...


No, I'm with you. I wasn't complaining about the the smoking situation ....much. Personally I did alright with the stops as they were. I objected to trying to make up time by cutting out some smoking stops. That barely happened though....but even once is too much when you're counting on it....and I know Amtrak reserves that right. With amtrak struggling to keep ridership up they could definitely try harder to accomodate the smokers and nonsmokers though.


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## Lucifer (Apr 17, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> > But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.
> ...


And to answer your question about being on a flight that makes a stop to let passengers off then continue on with the remaining passengers....they frequently DO let the people off for a break when they do this.


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## Lucifer (Apr 17, 2007)

AmtrakWPK said:


> On a train from, say, New York to Miami, there is a strong inference that you are expecting to get on at New York and get off at Miami, otherwise you would have bought a ticket to an intermediate destination. There will be some stops that are normally long enough in duration (crew changes and refueling) where you could probably expect to be able to get off and stretch your legs for a few minutes. At most other stops you can reasonably expect that if you get off the train you will have to make alternate arrangements to continue your journey, because the train will have departed that station without you. An admonishment not to get off or you will be left behind is not being kept against your will any more than a flight attendant who kept you from opening an emergency exit and walking off the airplane at 30,000 feet altitude would be keeping you against your will. The trains typically already are running late from freight interference, and they don't need the assistance, in running additionally late, that waiting for a passenger who was told not to get off at that station but got off anyway, would provide. As a fellow passenger, I would be ready, willing, and able to give such a passenger a piece of my mind (well, a very small piece, I can't afford to give away a large piece :lol: ), for being a sufficient jerk that he or she made the rest of us that much later than we already were, simply because of a substance addiction that they were unwilling to break. I don't care if he has AIDS or athlete's foot or three heads. That passenger's addiction cannot be allowed to affect the proper operation of the train and to further muck up the schedules of a hundred or so fellow passengers.


AGAIN! I personally did alright with the smoke stops being like they were but do think they could come up with something to satisfy both sides of the issue that are better than the present situation and that the only thing I object to is when they would cut smoking stops to make up time caused by freight delays.


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## Lucifer (Apr 17, 2007)

daveyb99 said:


> With all due respect, this is one of the most disjointed and rambling stories I have ever heard.
> But let me summarize:
> 
> A sax-player with long hair, a beard and AIDS traveling with two heavy packs (but only one change of clothes) on a three-day Amtrak trip delayed by a nine-toed lunatic is tossed off in Provo by a Conductor with histrionic rantings about the accused made by some Latino children and a slip-and-fall expert then stiffs a cab driver for $65 for a 50-mile $110 cab ride.
> ...


I too would like to hear the REST of the story because it made no sense to throw me off the train in Provo which is why I even posted here at all....looking for answers. I put in all the details hoping somebody could spot a logical reason so let ME summarize:

1. All was well between me, the other passengers, and the staff on board all the way from San Francisco to Trenton NJ despite others getting annoyed enough with the routine problems of rail travel.

2.Most of the trip back to San Francisco was fine and even smoother for me and again I was making friends and the staff and I got along fine or even great.

3.The only hint of trouble seemed to come when two undercover cops who I happened to be talking about the Denver skyline and weather with went and searched a non English speaking family's belongings and after this the family's attitude toward me changed. Then I possibly offended a guy and gal by commenting that their bogus plan to sue Amtrak probably wouldn't work.

4. I went to sleep just as two new conductors began their shift and they had next to NO interaction with me until I was harshly woken by one of the new conductors, Kris May, accompanied by two of the searched family's younger members who were pointing me out to this conductor.

5. Based on whatever the children were accusing me of, the conductor demanded I collect my things and move to a very undesirable seat in the same car but downstairs and the only people remaining in that car were the people who possibly didn't like me for reasons noted in #3 above. The conductor's harshness seemed way overblown for the reason I was given for being moved which was that I was being accused of being stinky but had changed my underwear and socks daily, washed both morning and evening, and only this conductor and the complainers during the entire trip had any problem with me.

6.Venturing twice from my new seat and back and having to pass my old seat and the complainers to do so, I was confronted with disdain and threats of physical violence to the point that I had to get a conductor's assistance and one of the complainers insisted himself on the other new conductor, would not even hear my account of being threatened and actually chased. This conductor had not any agreement from the on board staff members who'd already travelled thousands of miles with me and expressed that I had not been a problem for anybody. A much larger number of passengers than the complainers all voiced their support of me.

7. The new conductors, upon hearing the bogus accusations of the complainer who'd threatened to throw me down the stairs decided to put me off the train without even hearing a defense or my complaints over being threatened from me or to consider the support being offered me from other passengers and the staff members who'd travelled with me already for days. They'd called the Provo police who met us in Provo and they escorted me off the train thanking me for my cooperation and after determining I'd not broken any laws by interogating me and thoroughly searching both my person and belongings, became helpful by suggesting alternative travel arrangements home then called a cab for me and were quoted a fare of $48

to get me to the Salt Lake City airport.

8. The driver, seemingly not wanting to drive me anywhere, began changing the quoted fare up and up and up till I had to request he take me to the Provo police dept, something he's bound by law upon request to do but he instead drove me to the airport where I left him prematurely and with enough money to cover the initial quote as I scurried up a steep unstable embankment with my saxophone, my carry on bag, and the heavy bag I'd checked when I first started my trip home. An additional $333 was spent on airfare back to San Francisco.

9. The solution to satisfying the complainers and myself that the conductors came up with was obviously inadequate and better options would have been to move my seat to the next car up where the passengers all liked me and where I'd never have to walk near the complainers again


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## AmtrakWPK (Apr 17, 2007)

> the only thing I object to is when they would cut smoking stops to make up time caused by freight delays.


 When the train is running late, passengers on that train worry. Some passenger is heading to a wedding. Will he or she arrive before the wedding is over? Some passenger is traveling to an appointment with a cancer specialist. If he arrives too late for that appointment he will have to go home and wait for another two or three weeks. The cancer won't stop metastasizing during that time. Another passenger is traveling to see her father/mother/brother/son who is in the hospital in ICU dying. Will she make it before that loved one dies? She is terrified of flying, or the flight from her small town , which has train service, would have cost $800 more than she could afford. Another is going to testify at a trial. Will they make it in time to testify or will they be held in contempt because they didn't? Another is meeting a cruise ship. Will the ship sail without them? Lots of others will just be late. Any single one of those people would be completely outraged if a conductor kept the train waiting for no other reason than some smokers puffing away after "station work", the entraining or detraining passengers, was completed and the train was ready to go except for the smokers. The train exists to transport passengers. NOTHING should be allowed to interfere with that, period. Unless the train is EARLY and can't depart until it is scheduled to depart from that station, NOTHING should be allowed to hinder it's departure, as soon as possible, when legitimate station work has been completed, ESPECIALLY smokers. Conductors work very hard to shave seconds off of station stops in order to try to "catch up" with their schedule. Engineers work very hard, within the rules, to get their trains back to schedule. "Smoking stops" are conveniences for smokers that MUST fit "within" a station stop and not make that stop even ONE SECOND slower. They cannot be ADDED to it. If a smoker can't deal with that, then get in your car and drive to your destination. Don't expect a train full of passengers trying desperately to get to their destinations, for a variety of legitimate reasons, to acquiesce to your making them later to their destinations.


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## Anthony (Apr 17, 2007)

Well, I do believe him when he says he was thrown off at Provo. But I also agree with the other posters in saying that this complaint would best be directed at Amtrak Customer Service, and perhaps in a less sensational style. Lucifer, it might be helpful if you could rewrite your complaint in more of an expository, straightforward, factual style, and omit a lot of the adjectives and emphasis, sticking just to the facts. Amtrak will probably respond better to it that way... if you present a compelling case, and if the conductors truly erred in their judgment and handling of your situation, they might even give you a voucher for future travel as amends. 

Their address is:

Amtrak Customer Service

60 Massachusetts Ave NE

Washington, DC 20002


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## Lucifer (Apr 17, 2007)

Anthony said:


> Well, I do believe him when he says he was thrown off at Provo. But I also agree with the other posters in saying that this complaint would best be directed at Amtrak Customer Service, and perhaps in a less sensational style. Lucifer, it might be helpful if you could rewrite your complaint in more of an expository, straightforward, factual style, and omit a lot of the adjectives and emphasis, sticking just to the facts. Amtrak will probably respond better to it that way... if you present a compelling case, and if the conductors truly erred in their judgment and handling of your situation, they might even give you a voucher for future travel as amends.
> Their address is:
> 
> Amtrak Customer Service
> ...


Thank you already done.


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## eliyahu (Apr 17, 2007)

Lucifer said:


> I'll not settle for anything less than cab and airfare covered and have lawyers who say I could make way more than that over this.


ok, this is getting really nasty. i think the biggest problem that some members of the board have had with your posts to date is that they seem (and i stress _seem_) fictional based on the writing style. we have no way of determining whether any of this is true other than taking your word for it, and when some might read your words as hyperbole, you'll get the responses you have thus far. since i don't have anything that would contradict your story, i'll go ahead and believe your story. there have always been various 'characters' that travel coach on the long-distance trains -- one of the reasons i won't travel in a coach for more than a few hours -- so i can certainly see your story having played out as described.

there are many here who will rush to defend amtrak when it is not warranted, just as there are those that immediately come back with the 'shut 'em down' or 'amtrak is worthless' response. you'll just have to ignore that. but i seriously doubt any attorney worth his/her salt would approach this past a discovery period. they would discover that the conductors' reports will indicate you to be at fault, they would testify as such, and it sounds like any witnesses you would procure (other than your bartender friend) would not be in your favor, and that's assuming they would even respond to your suit without a subpeona. not to mention the funds amtrak could through behind this. at best some shyster is looking for a settlement because this would be a mere annoyance to a firm of amtrak's size. that's not to say it is without merit, i'm just suggesting that i doubt you would be very successful. so a threat of a lawsuit isn't going to help, and certainly not help your credibility on this board.

my hope is that amtrak will follow-up by reading the conductors' reports and then based on your letter and whatever they might say try to come up with an equitable response. i hope this experience hasn't soured you on rail travel -- although i'm not sure if i could stay enthusiastic if thrown off of a train without cause. just keep in mind that amtrak does have the right to deny service with cause at any time; it was part of the contract implied with your ticket purchase. and if you were causing a disturbance -- even if it not your fault -- that would satisfy the legal beavers out there despite the lack of fairness. best of luck in this, and let us know how it turns out.

*alan:* maybe it might calm some ruffled feathers if we went ahead and locked this thread until there is an update re: amtrak's response? not sure what the board's policy is on threads like this.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx


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## had8ley (Apr 17, 2007)

eliyahu said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> > I'll not settle for anything less than cab and airfare covered and have lawyers who say I could make way more than that over this.
> ...


If I may interject just one comment~ I have ridden trains both as an employee and a customer and it takes a lot to be taken off a train. Sometimes I marvel at what some conductors put up with. You, sir, committed the highest of Amtrak offenses and were duly invited to find another form of transportation.

Now, that's reality...


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 17, 2007)

had8ley said:


> If I may interject just one comment~ I have ridden trains both as an employee and a customer and it takes a lot to be taken off a train. Sometimes I marvel at what some conductors put up with. You, sir, committed the highest of Amtrak offenses and were duly invited to find another form of transportation...


Okay, let's set the OP's "story" aside for a moment (which I, personally, found quite interesting and well written. I'd love to hear more).

From the conductor's point of view, let's ignore the saxaphone, the possible odor, the undercover cops, and the rest. The very last incident is the one that matters. One passenger claims to the conductor that another passenger is harassing people. If the alleged "victims" of the harassment will corroborate this, it should be an easy decision by the conductor. You have a victim and an eyewitness. So, he's guilty of harassment. End of story. From what the OP stated, it sounds like both the victims and the eyewitness disliked him for all the other reasons. A conductor, aside from his or her other duties, can't possibly expected to do a full CSI-style investigation. The victim plus an eyewitness should be enough to put someone off a train.


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## caravanman (Apr 17, 2007)

All human life is there...

I loved the original posters detailed complaint, and it is true that some Amtrak staff are high on their own power trip. I was recently ordered out of the train restroom at 1am by loud hammering on the door and a barked order "GIT OUT HERE IMMEDIATLY" She looked quite crestfallen to find a polite middle aged Engish non - smoker on the end of her summons!

Still, I feel Lucifer is perhaps bedeviled by his own demons (ho ho!)

Ed B)


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2007)

I have as of tonight cleaned up many of the more negative posts in this thread and I will continue to do so as needed. I am however not going to close this thread at this time either.

I am going to ask that *everyone please be civil and polite in this discussion.* Whether one believes Lucifer or not, is not a reason for insults, impolite remarks, or out and out criticism. While I can't prove or disprove Lucifier's story, I will say that I have learned through a clandestine source that someone (no name was listed in the report) was indeed thrown off the train in question in Provo.

So there is certainly a very good possibilty that it was Lucifer who was thrown off the train. Since none of us were there, we also only have his version of the story and the events leading up to his being thrown off the train. And as I said in another recent post, there is always two sides to every story.

I don't say this because I dis-believe Lucifer or because I do believe him. But it would certainly appear that something did go wrong on that train and that he was indeed thrown off the train.

So again I ask everyone to please be civil to one another. I'll remind people that Lucifer has responded politely to those who have responded politely to him and his posts. He has only responded negatively to those who responded negatively to him.

This forum is not supposed to be only about the good things that happen at Amtrak. This forum is supposed to be a place where people can learn about Amtrak. It is supposed to be a place where people can come to ask questions about Amtrak. It is supposed to be a place to discuss the good and the bad regarding Amtrak. And it is supposed to be a place where we can have fun and civil conversation.

Remember, a forum is only as rich as its members.  I for one, think that we need everyone of our members.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2007)

AlanB-

Thank you for your civil, honest and fair comments.  It is a habit I find on many travel sites, where one cannot voice some disatisfaction without being quickly dismissed by what others have termed "cheerleaders." Not everyone has a good experience and sometimes it has everything to do with the staff of the train and not just "acts of nature" or "acts of the freight line".

I have seen it all on Amtrak (I was on a trip where a legless man refused to go to the bathroom and so went where he sat in the lounge car, it was closed for the duration of the trip due to health concerns) but luckily I was never the one in the middle of something, just an observer and a recipient of the consequences that all passengers faced as a result.

Where's the empathy. The guy writes a quite unbelievable travel log filled with really disturbing occurances and posters bring up the protocal for smoking stops. He even said that wasn't a big issue. Lucifer, I hope you can find some resolution in this matter.


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## XNWA (Apr 17, 2007)

AlanB said:


> I have as of tonight cleaned up many of the more negative posts in this thread and I will continue to do so as needed. I am however not going to close this thread at this time either.
> I am going to ask that *everyone please be civil and polite in this discussion.* Whether one believes Lucifer or not, is not a reason for insults, impolite remarks, or out and out criticism. While I can't prove or disprove Lucifier's story, I will say that I have learned through a clandestine source that someone (no name was listed in the report) was indeed thrown off the train in question in Provo.
> 
> So there is certainly a very good possibilty that it was Lucifer who was thrown off the train. Since none of us were there, we also only have his version of the story and the events leading up to his being thrown off the train. And as I said in another recent post, there is always two sides to every story.
> ...


I will not respond to the complaints of Lucifer as I do not belive this website is the place to air his bad experince. Amtrak has customer service to air ones views of their experience of Amtrak travel. I believe Lucifer is playing with the members of this website and I belive none of it.


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## Mike S. (Apr 17, 2007)

After reading Alan B's last post, I went back and revised my post. I don't think I should be critical of him playing his sax on the train. Its not my thing, but I shouldn't rag on him for doing it.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 17, 2007)

XNWA said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I have as of tonight cleaned up many of the more negative posts in this thread and I will continue to do so as needed. I am however not going to close this thread at this time either.
> ...



There have been many posts by many people describing bad trips on Amtrak. I think that it is important that these posts are not discouraged. At times, these posts have alerted me to potential problems for when I plan trips. Other times, I have seen people get advice as to how to contact Amtrak and gain resolution to their complaints. In fact, when Amtrak had the refund policy under Downs, posts on this websie helped me to advocate for my girl friend when she was repeatedly asked on a date by a crew member. She got a voucher whcih paid for another trip which she really needed at the time because she did not have money to take two trips.

As for Lucifer, I think his story is plausible. Once problems start, and emotions get going between people, the situation does get convoluted, confusing, and illogical. I work in an urban school, and have first had observations of situations that escalate quickly and then create convoluted scenarios.


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## Tracksentinel (Apr 17, 2007)

If BO is a reason for being tossed off the train there would be plenty of empty seats in Coach IMHO.


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## Lucifer (Apr 19, 2007)

AlanB said:


> I have as of tonight cleaned up many of the more negative posts in this thread and I will continue to do so as needed. I am however not going to close this thread at this time either.
> I am going to ask that *everyone please be civil and polite in this discussion.* Whether one believes Lucifer or not, is not a reason for insults, impolite remarks, or out and out criticism. While I can't prove or disprove Lucifier's story, I will say that I have learned through a clandestine source that someone (no name was listed in the report) was indeed thrown off the train in question in Provo.
> 
> So there is certainly a very good possibilty that it was Lucifer who was thrown off the train. Since none of us were there, we also only have his version of the story and the events leading up to his being thrown off the train. And as I said in another recent post, there is always two sides to every story.
> ...


Thank you


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## Lucifer (Apr 19, 2007)

Mike S. said:


> After reading Alan B's last post, I went back and revised my post. I don't think I should be critical of him playing his sax on the train. Its not my thing, but I shouldn't rag on him for doing it.


Thanks and if anybody had even slightly been bothered I would have immediatly stopped. Most of us musicians want to please the crowd, not alienate them. Thanks again.


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## Lucifer (Apr 19, 2007)

eliyahu said:


> Lucifer said:
> 
> 
> > I'll not settle for anything less than cab and airfare covered and have lawyers who say I could make way more than that over this.
> ...


Thanks but I am soured on rail travel forever. I think if I had had a traveling companion things would have been different and although there were plenty of people on the train supporting me and outraged at the way the conductors were treating me, I doubt they'll come forward. Sad state of the world that we as people don't stand up for each other more.


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## Lucifer (Apr 19, 2007)

Guest said:


> AlanB-
> Thank you for your civil, honest and fair comments. It is a habit I find on many travel sites, where one cannot voice some disatisfaction without being quickly dismissed by what others have termed "cheerleaders." Not everyone has a good experience and sometimes it has everything to do with the staff of the train and not just "acts of nature" or "acts of the freight line".
> 
> I have seen it all on Amtrak (I was on a trip where a legless man refused to go to the bathroom and so went where he sat in the lounge car, it was closed for the duration of the trip due to health concerns) but luckily I was never the one in the middle of something, just an observer and a recipient of the consequences that all passengers faced as a result.
> ...


Thanks


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## Lucifer (Apr 19, 2007)

Steve4031 said:


> XNWA said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Yes. That's exactly what was happening! It felt like a snowball rolling out of control suddenly after I'd really been enjoying the trip with all it's ups and downs before the new conductors came on. The female conductor was more into trying to get support against me than in trying to solve the problem and changing cars instead of seating me immediatly downstairs from the only people on my entire trip who had a problem with me was only encouraging more problems. And instead of being so hell bent on ruining my trip, if she had offered me a shower up in the sleeper car (if indeed I was really smelly) that would also have been a much more reasonable solution to the problem. Wish these two solutions had occured to me sooner at the time but these are not in my area of expertise as this was my first train trip in many years but as a train conductor I think she should have been more familiar with all the possible options.


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