# Southern Tier On Track For Passenger Rail Service (VIDEO)



## MrEd (Apr 6, 2010)

http://www.weny.com/News-Local.asp?ARTICLE3864=9153087

The Southern Tier may be one step closer to Amtrak service.

Senator Chuck Schumer commissioned a study with Amtrak on the feasibility of a rail service line from Binghamton to New York City.

The results from the study are expected in about a month.

The line would be an extension of a line from Scranton to the Big Apple, which is already being built.

The study measures demand for passenger rail service as well as construction and upgrade costs.

If the demand is there, construction could start very soon.


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## AlanB (Apr 6, 2010)

MrEd said:


> The line would be an extension of a line from Scranton to the Big Apple, which is already being built.


Well to be fair, a few miles of that route are now under contract to be built. But that won't even get the line halfway through New Jersey from where it branches off the existing line to Hackettstown to PA. No funding is in place for the rest of the line to PA, no agreement has been reached with PA regarding their share of funding to operate the trains, and considerable work needs to be done in PA to up the speeds as much as possible and again there is no funding for that yet either.

So any dream of Southern Tier service is still a long way from reality.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 7, 2010)

MrEd said:


> http://www.weny.com/News-Local.asp?ARTICLE3864=9153087
> The Southern Tier may be one step closer to Amtrak service.
> 
> Senator Chuck Schumer commissioned a study with Amtrak on the feasibility of a rail service line from Binghamton to New York City.
> ...


In 50 years, when they finally build the connection to PA (but continue studying the extension to Scranton!) maybe Schumer would find some purpose in discussing that extension. But I say the chances of the Cutoff being rebuilt in my lifetime to be about 1/1000.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2010)

As long as NJT acting as the Metro West Railroad, tries to justify construction of the Lackawanna Cutoff in terms of traffic generated to New York alone, they will never be able to justify building it. Originally the rebuilding of this line was conceived of as traffic reliever on I80 for traffic destined for Morris County,not for New York. NJT did a traffic study and concluded only 600 people will go to New York .... well duh! And they did not even bother to study possibilities with feeder bus routes and such in Morris County. So no wonder they are unable to convince anyone in NJ that NJ part of it should be an NJ funded project.

Frankly until the current NJTRO management team is completely kicked out and replaced with people who have a more comprehensive idea of what NJTRO should be as part of a multi-modal public transportation plan for and in NJ, I don't see any progress being made on anything significant within NJ. Jeff Warsh was the last time there was a reasonable NJ vision for NJTRO.Then came Warrington who just wanted to run a smaller Amtrak and freight railroad, damn the needs of the users. Vast sums of money were expended in ordering boat loads of wrong kind of equipment for fast efficient suburban service, and now a whole generation of NJ is stuck with slow pokey trains that the 19th century could be proud of. And that management team is still in place with a few cosmetic changes at the top, with one brilliant idea in their head. "RAISE FARES and CUT SERVICE". The future is bleak!


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## George Harris (Apr 16, 2010)

MrEd said:


> http://www.weny.com/News-Local.asp?ARTICLE3864=9153087
> The Southern Tier may be one step closer to Amtrak service.
> 
> Senator Chuck Schumer commissioned a study with Amtrak on the feasibility of a rail service line from Binghamton to New York City.
> ...


The key word in all the above is, *STUDY.* That is all it is folks, a study. Means that Schumer wants to look like he is doing something, and may have some contributor he want to give a little money to. It does not mean that any form of service is likely to happen in the lifetime of anybody here.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2010)

Place a microphone within stones throw of Schumer and you will hear stuff :lol: which may or may not have any relation to reality.


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## had8ley (Apr 16, 2010)

jis said:


> Place a microphone within stones throw of Schumer and you will hear stuff :lol: which may or may not have any relation to reality.


And he always seems to grab the limelight of the TV cameras when he does grab the mike...BTW, is Rankel ever going to be prosecuted ???


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## had8ley (Apr 16, 2010)

Getting off the beaten path just a tad. Last week I was on a mid-day train to Morristown on NJT. The trainman told me they had 5 trainmen working that job. What do they have in rush hour?


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## dan (Apr 21, 2010)

George Harris said:


> MrEd said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.weny.com/News-Local.asp?ARTICLE3864=9153087
> ...


There is already tracks from Binghamton to Port Jervis which is the northern termination of existing commuter trains. Why not route it that way?


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## jis (Apr 21, 2010)

dan said:


> There is already tracks from Binghamton to Port Jervis which is the northern termination of existing commuter trains. Why not route it that way?


It is slow and apparently has no significant population center between Port Jervis and Binghamton. It would take between one and a half to twice the time to get to Binghamton on that route when compared to by car or bus on the slightly to the north but essentially parallel Rt 17. It was considered as an alternative and rejected for that reason.


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## goodnightjohnwayne (Apr 23, 2010)

jis said:


> dan said:
> 
> 
> > There is already tracks from Binghamton to Port Jervis which is the northern termination of existing commuter trains. Why not route it that way?
> ...


Well, the Erie did manage to pick a route that managed to miss any potential population centers. I also have the impression that there are many curves, since the route followed the low ground of the watercourse to minimize grades and building costs. I would guess that the route is closer to Class 2 than Class 3, meaning speeds of less than 30 MPH for any potential passenger service?


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## George Harris (Apr 23, 2010)

goodnightjohnwayne said:


> Well, the Erie did manage to pick a route that managed to miss any potential population centers. I also have the impression that there are many curves, since the route followed the low ground of the watercourse to minimize grades and building costs. I would guess that the route is closer to Class 2 than Class 3, meaning speeds of less than 30 MPH for any potential passenger service?


Track class has nothing to do with curvature. Track class is bsaed sole on the condition of the track itself. That is, you can have a dead straight track, and if the condition of the track is Class 2, the speed is 30 mph maximum. If hte track is up to Class 6, and you have small radius curves, train speed may be limited to 40 mph, 30 mph, or evel less, depending upon the curve despite the track condition being up to that required for 110 mph.

While saying this, Just because curvature limits speed to 30 mph does *not* mean that you maintain the track to Class 2 standards. Not at all. If there is decent trafiic volumen, you still want to go for at least class 4 or 5 for components and deviations.


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## Nexis4Jersey (Apr 25, 2010)

George Harris said:


> goodnightjohnwayne said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the Erie did manage to pick a route that managed to miss any potential population centers. I also have the impression that there are many curves, since the route followed the low ground of the watercourse to minimize grades and building costs. I would guess that the route is closer to Class 2 than Class 3, meaning speeds of less than 30 MPH for any potential passenger service?
> ...


I wasn't aware this was UC outside of Jersey , and the PA side has alot of opposition due to " Jersey / New York trash it would bring"


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## AlanB (Apr 25, 2010)

Corey said:


> I wasn't aware this was UC outside of Jersey , and the PA side has alot of opposition due to " Jersey / New York trash it would bring"


Trust me there is a fair amount of opposition within NJ to this idea too. And there is also considerable support within PA for this project. The issue is that the supporters tend to be less vocal, and therefore get less news time.


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## jis (Apr 26, 2010)

Corey said:


> I wasn't aware this was UC outside of Jersey , and the PA side has alot of opposition due to " Jersey / New York trash it would bring"


All that is UC in NJ is a line to Andover, which is along the alignment that could be eventually extended to the PA border. But first NJ has to figure out how to replenish the Transportation Trust Fund,since that and CMAQ are the sources of funding this sort of construction, now that every other penny is getting sucked into ARC.

There is the usual NIMBY opposition, but it is not insurmountable at all. The trash argument is a complete red herring and a rather honking big one when New York trash is mentioned. Even for NJ trash, there is no way for it to get to that line since NJT has made agreements with many townships on the routes that would need to be traversed for the trash to get there, that there will be no trash or freight trains on those lines, other than for local car load deliveries that Conrail has contracts to deliver. This applies to both the Morristown and Boonton lines, and there is no other way to get NJ trash from the urban areas of NJ to the Lackawanna Cutoff. If any NJ trash goes to PA by rail it will be via the Port Jervis line or the Raritan Valley Line through Philippsburg. In case of the latter Conrail Shared Assets will be happy to do the honors over the Lehigh Valley Line instead I am sure, without involving NJT in any way, and possibly already does.


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## Nexis4Jersey (Apr 26, 2010)

jis said:


> Corey said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't aware this was UC outside of Jersey , and the PA side has alot of opposition due to " Jersey / New York trash it would bring"
> ...


When i mean't by trash , was the Urban kind. unfortunately people still demonize Newark , which in recent years has come back. As for the Transportation Trust Fund , my republic representative friend said we would barrow form the Feds , while my Dem representative said we would raise the Gas tax by 10-20 cents....Its a big mess , and ridiculous , i also think NJT needs to be reorganize. They need to push for the Newark-Elizabeth LRT lines instead of the Lackawanna line , i mean how many people are going to use the Lackawanna line? 10,000-20,000 as opposed to 50-70,000 for the Newark-Elizabeth LRT. By the end of this decade do you see the Lackawanna line fully restored and possibly Electrified?


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## George Harris (Apr 27, 2010)

Corey said:


> When i mean't by trash , was the Urban kind. unfortunately people still demonize Newark , which in recent years has come back.


Wow! When I spent a few months working there 15 years ago, it was still strongly recommended to not go out after dark if you wanted to see daylight the next day.

When a college student the joke about Newark was that for proper urban renewal the only question was how many Megatons would it take?


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## Nexis4Jersey (Apr 27, 2010)

George Harris said:


> Corey said:
> 
> 
> > When i mean't by trash , was the Urban kind. unfortunately people still demonize Newark , which in recent years has come back.
> ...


LOL 15 years was back in the worst of it. Downtown , Ironbound , University Heights , South Downtown , North of I-280 are perfectly safe areas. Its a Rail , Transit , Road geekers paradise with all the Railways and highways intersecting. The City has really changed since Mayor Booker took over 4 years ago , hes up for reelection May 11. The City has a Camera system like in London.


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## AlanB (Apr 27, 2010)

The Ironbound section has really changed in the past several years. It used to be one of the absolute worst areas of Newark. I grew up in Belleville, the next town north of Newark, and as a kid the Ironbound was one section of Newark that we never ventured into as a family. Much of it was actually destroyed during the riots in 1967.

I remember that my home town had to build wooden cabs for all of our fire trucks back then, since they were all open cabs back then, to protect the firemen from being hit with bricks and rocks.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 28, 2010)

Corey said:


> When i mean't by trash , was the Urban kind. unfortunately people still demonize Newark , which in recent years has come back. As for the Transportation Trust Fund , my republic representative friend said we would barrow form the Feds , while my Dem representative said we would raise the Gas tax by 10-20 cents....Its a big mess , and ridiculous , i also think NJT needs to be reorganize. They need to push for the Newark-Elizabeth LRT lines instead of the Lackawanna line , i mean how many people are going to use the Lackawanna line? 10,000-20,000 as opposed to 50-70,000 for the Newark-Elizabeth LRT. By the end of this decade do you see the Lackawanna line fully restored and possibly Electrified?


NJ Transit certainly needs a reorganization of a fairly solid variety. However, much of the problem also relies higher up, in the governors office. People in New Jersey do stupid things, unforgivably stupid things. Like electing Republicans, doubly so dishonest scoundrels like Christie, who will support his campaign contributers to the detriment of the people of New Jersey.

New Jersey has the 3rd lowest gas tax in the entire country. Our toll roads are, admittedly like many other states, vastly underpriced. Florida's toll roads are more in line with what things should be. It should work out to about 10 cents per mile. Not just the Turnpike and Garden State, but all of the interstates and other limited-access roads such as Route-18 and the limited access section of Route 33.

Our gas tax is, as I said, the third lowest in the nation, and I find that to be a disgrace. It hasn't been raised in twenty-two years. In that time, transit fares have sky rocketed, especially to off-peak riders. Mark me, you people in your cars have no significant toll increase, and no gas tax increase. But I, the off peak rider? In two days my transit user fee will go up 47%. FORTY SEVEN PERCENT.

More over, needed service to people with disabilities will be cut. CUT! And how will these people get around? Well gee, they won't. But those of you fortunate enough to afford a car, and who don't give a **** about our planet, they get off scott free.

Christie to should be skinned, tarred, feathered, boiled in oil, and then dumped off a pier.


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## George Harris (Apr 28, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> New Jersey has the 3rd lowest gas tax in the entire country. Our toll roads are, admittedly like many other states, vastly underpriced.


Those must be the only low tax and underpriced items in New Jersey. My experience in NJ was like having my pockets picked (legally) and my checking account tapped. After a few months there, which is all there was, thankfully, all I wanted to see was the "Welcome to New Jersey" if there really is such a thing, sign on the other side of the road dissapearing in my rear view mirror.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 28, 2010)

Pfui. In order to provide reasonable services to people, one must be taxed. Greatest good, greatest number, from those as to their ability, to those according to their need. Only reasonable way to do anything.


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## George Harris (Apr 28, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Pfui. In order to provide reasonable services to people, one must be taxed. Greatest good, greatest number, from those as to their ability, to those according to their need. Only reasonable way to do anything.


Karl Marx being the source of this quote, if I remember correctly. Sounds good, does not work in practice. Ignores the inherent laziness of most of mankind.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 29, 2010)

George Harris said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Pfui. In order to provide reasonable services to people, one must be taxed. Greatest good, greatest number, from those as to their ability, to those according to their need. Only reasonable way to do anything.
> ...


At present, the world isn't ready for the system Karl Marx laid out. I'm not pretending it is. Someday, I think, when hell on earth has come and gone, then all that will come to pass.

However, Mr. Harris, the wise men of the world all have something to offer, from Machiavelli to Marx and every place in between. From each great man, good ideas have come, along with some not so good ideas. Just because the communist system does not work in our current world, does not mean that none of the ideas from Das Kapital are applicable.

A few are applicable. And should be applied.74


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## jis (Apr 29, 2010)

Without taking any position at all about which parts of Das Kapital would or could apply, and there are some that could and actually unbeknown to most, already does, it is worth noting that the Communist system as practiced in the Soviet Union had more to do with Lenin and Stalin than with Marx. But this is way OT.


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## AAARGH! (Apr 29, 2010)

jis said:


> But this is way OT.


This may set a record for the farthest (furthest?) off-topic a thread has ever gone! I know we like going off-topic, but this is a (albeit interesting) stretch! :blink:


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## goodnightjohnwayne (May 3, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


Marx was a poor historian, ignorant of economics, and totally clueless about human motivation, most likely because he was a complete psychopath with megalomaniac delusions. It is fairly clear that Marx was authoritarian in his sentiments.

Machiavelli was fairly perceptive, but his work pertained solely to the behavior of a successful monarch at the end of the middle-ages, in a period of transition between limited feudal monarchy and absolutism.

Neither author has anything to offer on the topic at hand.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 3, 2010)

goodnightjohnwayne said:


> Marx was a poor historian, ignorant of economics, and totally clueless about human motivation, most likely because he was a complete psychopath with megalomaniac delusions. It is fairly clear that Marx was authoritarian in his sentiments.
> Machiavelli was fairly perceptive, but his work pertained solely to the behavior of a successful monarch at the end of the middle-ages, in a period of transition between limited feudal monarchy and absolutism.
> 
> Neither author has anything to offer on the topic at hand.


Thank you for your interesting opinion.


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