# The Polar Vortex



## henryj (Jan 3, 2014)

If you think it's cold now, just wait. Record breaking cold by next Monday and Tuesday. 15 below in Chicago and Indianapolis. Wind chills of 50, 60 or 70 below. If you are under 40yo you have not seen this stuff before. An historic cold outbreak. It will freeze over the Great Lakes and spread all the way to the north east and New England. Unfortunately, Houston is scheduled to get a hard freeze Monday or Tuesday. Good news is it won't last long before it warms up.


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## pennyk (Jan 3, 2014)

The weather forecast for Tuesday morning in Orlando is 29.


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## GG-1 (Jan 3, 2014)

pennyk said:


> The weather forecast for Tuesday morning in Orlando is 29.


Are you challenging me 

Aloha


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## Ryan (Jan 3, 2014)

Somehow, I think Amtrak will do alright.


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## SarahZ (Jan 3, 2014)

What? I'm 36, and I've experienced windchills around -40 many times. I used to live in Marquette, MI, which is right on Lake Superior. I also spent a considerable amount of time in Houghton, MI during the winter. (Houghton is farther north than Marquette.)


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## chakk (Jan 3, 2014)

Yoopers are quite familiar with cold weather. They go Green Bay to warm up.

And sometimes they do indeed get plenty of snow. I have photos of my parents' homes (they grew up next door to each other) with snow piled up to the second story and a tunnel dug from the ground floor entry out to the street.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 3, 2014)

Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.

I blame the Weather Channel for all of this hysteria.


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## TraneMan (Jan 3, 2014)

Sounds like the Empire Builder #8 is not running on Sunday, a member on Facebook page said she gotten the call and her trip is postponed.

She dosen't know why.. Maybe due to the extream wind chill that will be going on in Northern MN on Monday. All school in MN will be closed on Monday by the governer orders.


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## afigg (Jan 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Somehow, I think Amtrak will do alright.


Amtrak is not doing very well today. The trains are running, but a lot of very late LD and corridor trains in the east and Midwest. The cold blast that is coming on Sunday and Monday may cause some route shutdowns and cancellations.


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## Dan O (Jan 4, 2014)

Hmm..it was 80 here in the So Cal (near) desert a few days ago.


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## chakk (Jan 4, 2014)

My kids had a school day cancelled in Minnesota when the wind chill hit -55. So they spent the day playing outside instead of going to school.


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## oldtimer (Jan 4, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.
> 
> I blame the Weather Channel for all of this hysteria.


Right now the Weather Channel says -15 but some of the local TV forecasters are now predicting -20 or less. Some say that the all time low of -27 is in danger. Yes I do remember the -27 as I was given the task to rewire the heat control system on an Amfleet I, out in the yard with no shelter or wind break. For those of you that don't know the temperature control panel is under the car body, and it is wired with 20 gauge wires, not much thicker than telephone wire and must be done with bare hands. Needless to say a 2 hour job took 6 hours to complete allowing time to put your hands into your pockets to warm them and a couple of trips back to the shop for coffee.

Please think about the horrible working conditions the next time a train leaves out of the yard late.

Thanks oldtimer

PS: ISPOLKOM In the winter of 82-83 I made several trips to Minot and back to protect the equipment.


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## anir dendroica (Jan 4, 2014)

afigg said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow, I think Amtrak will do alright.
> ...


Superliners don't do too well with extreme cold. Toilets start to freeze around -15. Other plumbing is vulnerable at lower temperatures, and any loss-of-HEP troubles can quickly become uncomfortable. Tension increases in the rails, and freights slow down - to 40 mph in the case of very heavy or hazardous materials trains. Speed restrictions apply to Amtrak as well (usually 60 or 65 mph), but it is the freight slowdown that really gums up the system.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.
> 
> I blame the Weather Channel for all of this hysteria.


I remember the Dec '83 cold snap. I left DE with highs around 10 to go the FL for Christams week. FL's highs were cold enough to need at least a sweatshirt, which we bought while down there. NYE at the Magic Kingdom I had on my full winter gear. But it was still warmer than DE.


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## Tumbleweed (Jan 4, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.
> 
> I blame the Weather Channel for all of this hysteria.


Greetings fellow Nordakotan! I was born and raised there, and being a Norwegian of average intelligence, I moved South to South Dakota where I thought it would be warmer...uff-da....have a son in Florida and now enjoying the 70-80 degree days for a few months during the Winter.... but I do remember the Winters during the 40's and 50's as being extremely cold and being blocked in by snow for just about a complete Winter....the train was the only way in and out of our small town....except for the farmers with horse and sled.......I think the lowest I seen was actual temp of -42.... :help:


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## Bruce-C (Jan 4, 2014)

Dan O said:


> Hmm..it was 80 here in the So Cal (near) desert a few days ago.


So true Dan, but the forecast is for a bone-chilling, below average temp. of 68° by the end of next week!


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## guest (Jan 4, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.
> 
> I blame the Weather Channel for all of this hysteria.


I blame the people who watch it.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

I recall my mom saying that in MN, winter was from Oct to Apr and in GA, summer was from Apr to Oct.


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

guest said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > Pshaw! -15 in Chicago? I can remember -26 there in the early 80s. I'm from North Dakota, where we treat this whole "wind chill" thing as an excuse for wimps. Now December '83, that was a cold snap. Nothing says Christmas like three straight days when the highest temperature was -20.
> ...


There's nothing wrong with watching it to get the forecast. What's ridiculous is their insistence upon naming every single snow system that occurs during the winter. If they start naming thunderstorms in the summer, then I'll know they've officially gone full derp.


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## TraneMan (Jan 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


I gave up on The Weather Channel, DirecTV just added WeatherNation to the line up, so now it's 24/7 weather, and no names for storms!


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

Who needs the Weather Channel when you have The Internet?


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## CaliforniaMom (Jan 4, 2014)

chakk said:


> My kids had a school day cancelled in Minnesota when the wind chill hit -55. So they spent the day playing outside instead of going to school.


Funny!


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

I don't watch TWC, but I know some people who do because they aren't comfortable with computers and smartphones.

I use the Weatherbug app on my phone. I find it's much more reliable.


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## VentureForth (Jan 4, 2014)

I was turned off weather bug because they added a bunch of bugs to my pc. They've improved, but work won't let them on because they are still considered malicious. Weather underground was my next favorite then they blocked it. Now I'm stuck with TWC and Accuweather.


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## railiner (Jan 4, 2014)

All the media love adverse weather, hoping to get concerned people glued to their sets........


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## RichardK (Jan 4, 2014)

I quit watching the Weather Channel when NBC took over. They ruined a good thing, as usual. Now, it is mostly reality series.


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## railiner (Jan 4, 2014)

My all-time favorite weather program was called "AM Weather", which aired on some PBS stations back in the seventies or eighties....

It was a 15 or 30 minute program that aired at around 0600, and was targeted towards pilots, with mostly aviation oriented weather information....such things as winds aloft, known icing, etc.

It was presented by two or three professional meteorologists, in a strait forward, no-nonsense format. Very interesting.

It was fully funded by several aviation organizations. Probably more funding than required. Wonder if PBS took some of that excess to 'cross-fund' other programs underfunded...?

Anyway, it quietly disappeared from the schedule, perhaps due to low audiences, but I'm sure not from lack of funding....


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 4, 2014)

Something called _*Weather Nation *_recently showed up on _*DirecTV*_. I've only watched a few minutes of it but they remind me of the early days of_* Weather Channel *_when it was hard weather and little else.


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## Shanghai (Jan 4, 2014)

It was 42 degrees in Lake Wales this morning. I didn't hear about the 29 degrees in Orlando.

Penny can keep her 29 and I'm OK with 42. I still take Archie to the dog park each day.


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## jimhudson (Jan 4, 2014)

Shanghai said:


> It was 42 degrees in Lake Wales this morning. I didn't hear about the 29 degrees in Orlando.
> 
> Penny can keep her 29 and I'm OK with 42. I still take Archie to the dog park each day.


That's still Cold for Florida Dick, but I bet you didnt Dress Up like an Eskimo when you took Archie to the Dogie Park! ^_^


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## pennyk (Jan 4, 2014)

Shanghai said:


> It was 42 degrees in Lake Wales this morning. I didn't hear about the 29 degrees in Orlando.
> 
> Penny can keep her 29 and I'm OK with 42. I still take Archie to the dog park each day.


"They" are now saying that Tuesday morning, our low will be 32 not 29. That is still pretty darn cold. However, Sunday "they" are saying our high will be 79, which is above normal. Boots in the morning and flipflops in the afternoon. :lol:


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## oldtimer (Jan 4, 2014)

Shanghai said:


> It was 42 degrees in Lake Wales this morning. I didn't hear about the 29 degrees in Orlando.
> 
> Penny can keep her 29 and I'm OK with 42. I still take Archie to the dog park each day.


What is a dog park? It sounds like a place where you park your dog.

:help: :giggle:


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > It was 42 degrees in Lake Wales this morning. I didn't hear about the 29 degrees in Orlando.
> ...


It's a park designed for people to come with their dogs and let them off-leash so they can interact and play with other dogs. (The park is always fenced.) They provide bags and such for waste, and there are usually lots of open, grassy areas, trees, sand pits, and things dogs can play with/on/around.

There's one in Chicago named "Wiggly Field", and I saw one in the DFW area named "Fort Woof". 

It's also a great way to meet your neighbors and their dogs.


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## roomette (Jan 4, 2014)

These Storm Con Numbers for Ion are so high!


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## Dan O (Jan 4, 2014)

Bruce-C said:


> Dan O said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm..it was 80 here in the So Cal (near) desert a few days ago.
> ...


In 1990 we actually had snow on the ground here. Maybe 2-3 inches, enough for a small snowman. Maybe 4-5 years ago the low was 19 or so and my kids "ice skated" on our patio. They ran some water, let it freeze (almost immediately) and then went out and skated around in their shoes. Then again, about 8-9 years ago it was over 90 here in January and we were having water gun/hose fights and the kids were in the play pool while the east coast was in single digits. 68 is pretty normal for winter here.


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

I cannot begin to tell you how excited this map makes me.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

So jealous.


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## pennyk (Jan 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I cannot begin to tell you how excited this map makes me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


?? Inches of what? I do not comprehend. :lol:


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

Fluffy rain.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

Ryan, I just got a freezing rain warning for tomorrow morning. Are you going to get it also?


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

Between the snow forecast and the windchill prediction, I really hope our office is closed on Monday. /crosses fingers

Although, they can't forecast Kalamazoo properly because of the valley we're in, so we usually get half of what they predict. Still, that's about 7-8".


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## _Relations_Nag (Jan 4, 2014)

pennyk said:


> The weather forecast for Tuesday morning in Orlando is 29.


I thought Amtrak would swap out Viewliners with the Silvers, to send them down to FL to thaw out.

Without that option now, how to they thaw them out?


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ryan, I just got a freezing rain warning for tomorrow morning. Are you going to get it also?


Every county to the North and East, but not us yet. May make getting to church interesting.


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## hessjm (Jan 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I cannot begin to tell you how excited this map makes me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not happy with that picture when I saw it this morning. I had to make a special trip to the store to make sure I had supplies to last until Tuesday.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

Hey, the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared"! I'm good for a while, bring it on!


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## JayPea (Jan 4, 2014)

Since this thread has turned into the weather forecast :lol: I can say the Pacific Ocean is my friend.  Even though I live 300 miles from the ocean, we are getting the effects of our weather off the ocean instead of out of the north. We've had temps in the 40's and even into the 50's this week. No snow now or really all winter. It is supposed to cool way down tomorrow, though.  All the way to below freezing for a high!  But later in the week it's supposed to be near 40 again, right where it's supposed to be as far as I'm concerned. Right now it has been so dry this winter that already the gloom-and-doomers are predicting the entire state of Washington will be reduced to one giant cinder this summer due to extreme fire danger. But then, they do that when we have a much more typical wet winter and spring. The one time we had any snow to speak of, all the local (Spokane) TV stations of course had to way overblow it. Where I live, 60 miles south of Spokane, we were predicted to have up to 10 inches of white garbage.  We had maybe 3 inches, if that, and at that they were more accurate than usual. Such as the time last year we were supposed to get 16 inches of snow and we missed that by about 15 1/2 inches.  And with this "big" snow we had a couple of weeks ago, all the stations interrupted regular programming for a flake-by-flake description of the snowfall, and hyping it to a fare-thee-well.  They even had the audacity to interrupt Judge Judy! :angry2: :angry2: How dare they!!! :angry2: :angry2: .

I loooove snow....so long as it falls someplace else. :lol: Seriously, those affected by the snow and cold, stay safe!!


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

hessjm said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot begin to tell you how excited this map makes me.
> ...


Brent decided to go shopping as usual today. I told him to stay home since we have enough food and such to last the whopping 48 hours it'll take to clear the roads. He ignored me and then texted me a few hours later to say he was stuck at Meijer with a ton of people. They had every checkout lane open, and they were still 5-6 people deep in every line. Haha. 

I have a bottle of wine leftover from NYE and a bunch of new books to read, so bring it, snow.


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## hessjm (Jan 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> hessjm said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


When all Meijer lanes are clogged, you know everyone is panicking. You folks may get more snow than me, so you might lay in some extra supplies. Kzoo looks to be in the sweet zone for snowfall. I'm headed for cold - much colder than the -13 I recorded last week.


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## AlanB (Jan 4, 2014)

_Relations_Nag said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > The weather forecast for Tuesday morning in Orlando is 29.
> ...


Well it is warmer in Miami where the Silver trains end, so they'll still thaw out down there even if it doesn't start in Orlando or Jacksonville.

On Tuesday they're expecting a high of 67.


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## leemell (Jan 4, 2014)

Dan O said:


> Bruce-C said:
> 
> 
> > Dan O said:
> ...


In 1949 we a real snow storm. It started snowing about 10 PM and by 6 AM there was 12-14 inches on the ground in the San Fernando Valley. The cold weather (teens and twenties) hung around for three days before the snow began to melt. First and only "snow days" I ever had --- school or work (military service does not count, they don't have snow days --- ever).


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## leemell (Jan 4, 2014)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Something called _*Weather Nation *_recently showed up on _*DirecTV*_. I've only watched a few minutes of it but they remind me of the early days of_* Weather Channel *_when it was hard weather and little else.


Don't get used to it, Direct TV is using weathernation to leverage The Weather Channel. They are in access negotiations over the cost --- of course.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan, I just got a freezing rain warning for tomorrow morning. Are you going to get it also?
> ...


Which is why we went tonight.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

Us Presbyterians don't do that.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Us Presbyterians don't do that.


Which is why I like being a Catholic...choices of Masses to attend.


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## tricia (Jan 4, 2014)

Any thoughts about how trains running through places that don't usually (or ever) get so dang cold might be affected by weather over the next few days?

We're looking at a forecast of minus 4 degrees here in NORTH CAROLINA on Monday night, with 35 mph winds. Yeah, we're in the mountains near the border--but the bordering state is Tennessee! Southern states don't usually get this kind of cold. Expect that I'll be putting firewood in the stove as fast as it can burn, and that getting our spring-fed water system through this without damage and/or days without water will be quite a challenge!


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

tricia said:


> Any thoughts about how trains running through places that don't usually (or ever) get so dang cold might be affected by weather over the next few days?
> 
> We're looking at a forecast of minus 4 degrees here in NORTH CAROLINA on Monday night, with 35 mph winds. Yeah, we're in the mountains near the border--but the bordering state is Tennessee! Southern states don't usually get this kind of cold. Expect that I'll be putting firewood in the stove as fast as it can burn, and that getting our spring-fed water system through this without damage and/or days without water will be quite a challenge!


We in DE are having near record temps ourselves.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

I just can't get my head wrapped around this - a 40 degree swing on Monday?


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## Big Iron (Jan 4, 2014)

The Polar Vortex........sounds like a Clive Cussler novel.

I'm breaking out the union suit and my flask, I'll be just fine.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I just can't get my head wrapped around this - a 40 degree swing on Monday?


Yep, that's what they've been warning us about here in DE. Luckily it "warms" up again on Weds.


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## pennyk (Jan 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I just can't get my head wrapped around this - a 40 degree swing on Monday?


Is 2 degrees a record low Ryan? My sister has lived in that area for almost 30 years and I do not recall ever hearing it being that cold.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2014)

Good question.

The record low for January 6 is +5 degrees, set in 1904. The weather station in DC is next to the river and near a bunch of pavement at DCA, so it's tough to set record lows. We've got a shot at breaking it at BWI and IAD, I'm not too hopeful of setting the record at DCA.

Sunday's record (which isn't in danger, since it's before the cold arrives) is +1, going all the way back to 1877.


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## CHamilton (Jan 4, 2014)

Dang. You know it's serious when the Weather Service's official forecast starts like this.



> Incredibly Cold and Possibly Record Breaking Temperatures, Heavy Snow and Ice Are Expected for the Eastern Two-Thirds of the Country Through Next Week.
> Potentially record breaking cold temperatures will continue dropping through the northern-tier states today. As the airmass moves into the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley, moderate to heavy snow will be possible on Sunday. With cold air already entrenched over much of the eastern U.S., freezing rain is possible from the Deep South, along the Appalachians into New England for the next couple of days.
> Read More...


They're even using exclamation! points!!



> Wind chill warnings are in effect for many areas with wind chills on the order of -30 to -50 degrees expected! Afternoon highs on Monday for parts of the Midwest states and the Ohio Valley will fail to reach zero degrees!


But...



> The good news is that it will be a quick event, and moderating temperatures are expected to return by Wednesday.


Much as I hate to say it, stay the heck off trains, and stay inside and warm, folks. Those of us on the mild west coast will be thinking about you.


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## the_traveler (Jan 4, 2014)

The thing I remember about that time was that my mother was sitting in a restaurant in Tampa and questioned why people are setting off fireworks in the daytime. She saw the Shuttle explosion from the other side of Florida! 



AmtrakBlue said:


> I remember the Dec '83 cold snap. I left DE with highs around 10 to go the FL for Christams week. FL's highs were cold enough to need at least a sweatshirt, which we bought while down there. *NYE at the Magic Kingdom I had on my full winter gear. *But it was still warmer than DE.


You've been hanging around Penny too much! :giggle:


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## SarahZ (Jan 4, 2014)

hessjm said:


> When all Meijer lanes are clogged, you know everyone is panicking. You folks may get more snow than me, so you might lay in some extra supplies. Kzoo looks to be in the sweet zone for snowfall. I'm headed for cold - much colder than the -13 I recorded last week.


Which is strange since you usually get hammered and we get a small amount. We'll see how it all pans out.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 4, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Dang. You know it's serious when the Weather Service's official forecast starts like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What scared me about the NWS forecasts was about 2 days ago when they started using, not the exclamation points! but the phrases like "for once, all models agree" and "high confidence".

Looks like no snow coming to Minnesota, but when this mother of all cold fronts hits the warm moisture from the Great Lakes and Gulf and warm North Atlantic

Like the song says *"Look out Cleveland!"* - and all points East and Southeast from Chicago!

It was actually one degree above freezing here in Saint Paul at about 4 AM with no wind. Now it's 2F with wind chill -13F and expecting at least 15 degrees downward by morning. Then 3 days of really cold.

The NWS probably has records for 24-hour temperature drops around the country.

*DO *look at the NWS and your local emergency websites for advice if you are not familiar with snow and the unusual cold. *Never *try to heat your home with a cook stove or a charcoal grill. :excl: Official warning here

And *do *keep in touch with your neighbors.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 5, 2014)

Penny, ready for a windchill of 24 on Tuesday?


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## CollegeAgeTrainFanatic (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm just glad I'm leaving the Northeast before the extreme cold sets in. Boston wasn't too bad, but there's no way I was sticking around to find out. From what I was hearing, this week would have made me miss Minnesota temps


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## tim49424 (Jan 5, 2014)

NOAA Weather Forecast for Marshfield, WI (located a little over an hour north of the Empire Builder stop at Tomah, Wisconsin).

Today: Mostly sunny and cold with a high near -4. Wind chill values between -25 and -30. North northwest wind 11 to 15 mph, with gusts as high as 23 mph.

Tonight: A chance of flurries after midnight. Mostly cloudy, with a low around -27. Wind chill values between -45 and -55. Northwest wind 14 to 17 mph, with gusts as high as 26 mph.

Monday: A chance of flurries before 9 am. Mostly cloudy and cold, with a high near -17. Wind chill values between -45 and -55. West wind 14 to 17 mph, with gusts as high as 26 mph.

Monday Night: Mostly cloudy, with a low around -24. Wind chill values between -45 and -50. West wind 14 to 16 mph, with gusts as high as 22 mph.

Tuesday: Mostly sunny and cold, with a high near -6. West wind 9 to 14 mph, with gusts as high as 21 mph.

Tuesday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around -18.


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## henryj (Jan 5, 2014)

Well the Polar Vortex just arrived in Houston(actually Katy) and the temp dropped from 60's to 44 right now in just a few minutes and the wind is gusting to 31mph. Forecast is for 26 tonight and 19 tomorrow. They keep lowering it. I am bringing in what plants I can and covering the ones I really want to save. All outdoor faucets are covered now and tomorrow I will have to keep the water running and the pool pumps going. Rail service here in Texas is minimal, but I see yesterday's Eagle was delayed and No.1 is running late, but at 60mph. 22 still hasn't left San Antonio. The HF left on time and is running 79mph. No. 21 is running about 21 min late, which is not bad considering. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 5, 2014)

Despite the historic worsening cold the _*Heartland Flyer *_has been passing the house almost to the advertised the past few days. When I drove past the Norman station yesterday I didn't see thousands of people slung out on cots or the floor


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## pennyk (Jan 5, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Penny, ready for a windchill of 24 on Tuesday?


It is 68 degrees here now and expected to get to almost 80 this afternoon.... then down to 29 Monday night/Tuesday morning. The weather forecasters are talking about a 51 degree temperature drop - which is significant for us. I may need to wear so many layers on Tuesday that I may not fit into my little car. :lol: But.... I am not complaining (too much).


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## the_traveler (Jan 5, 2014)

henryj said:


> No. 21 is running about 21 min late


21 running 21 minutes late is OK. Now if 421 is running 421 minutes late, we're in trouble!


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## FriskyFL (Jan 5, 2014)

We're expecting the dreaded Polar Vortex here in S FL on Tuesday..high in the low 60s. Might actually have to turn off the a/c, if I can find the 'off' switch.


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## Romany16 (Jan 5, 2014)

Sitting in the thick of it in Northern Minnesota. -17 ground temp -22 windchill. Forecast for tomorrow morning; -30 ground temp, -57 windchill.

BNSF freight traffic is very busy here, the full taconite cars are steaming like crazy as they go by.


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## montana mike (Jan 5, 2014)

We have to remember that passenger aircraft fly in temps that are lower than minus 30F every day with NO issues at all. Everything is relative. I used to live up in Newfoundland and we had periodic temperatures of minus 30F throughout the winter (often with winds in excess of 40mph). The cars ran, the one train on the island ran, we worked our jobs and life went on. We just bundled up, plugged our cars in (or kept them in a garage) and still had time for fun in the snow (snowmobiling, snowshoeing, ice fishing, etc...), even at those temps. I recall landing at St. johns airport in January with temps below minus 30F and other than the captain mentioning the temperature, none of the locals on the plane (a Boeing 737) showed any concern.

It's all a matter of what you are used to and prepared for..........


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2014)

Given that we're looking at record lows across much of the US, I'd say that nobody is used to this.


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)

"WINTER STORM ION" is going to be brutal on the mid west and north east. Sad


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2014)

*** is "WINTER STORM ION"?


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)

Try this really cool website I found www.google.com


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)




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## JayPea (Jan 5, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> The NWS probably has records for 24-hour temperature drops around the country.


Here are some records for the biggest temperature drops. The biggest 24 hour drop, as mentioned is 100 degrees, at Browning, MT on January 23-24, 1916.

I almost feel guilty as I live at roughly the same parallel of latitude as Quebec City, and it's in the low 30's here and that's the chilliest day of the week forecast. It's supposed to be near 40 and above starting about Wednesday.


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## JayPea (Jan 5, 2014)

roomette said:


>


I just got off the phone with my uncle, who lives near Champaign, and he says it's near whiteout conditions there. He will probably hunker down and not get out at all the next few days.


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't think they gave the winter storms names back in 1916.


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## the_traveler (Jan 5, 2014)

Winter storms only got "named" for the past 2 years. And ONLY by The Weather Channel - no one else!


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)

My favorite new website www.google.com says you are incorrect.

Naming Storms is not a new idea and it's a good one.

Clearly The Weather Channel is not the only one who thinks so. Change is good!


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2014)

The only thing dumber than naming winter storms are your "helpful" pointers to Google.


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## roomette (Jan 5, 2014)

Don't hate! Appreciate!

I didn't call you dumb.


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## SarahZ (Jan 5, 2014)

Not that it's any surprise, but schools across southern Michigan are closed tomorrow because of the snow and windchill, and many northern Michigan schools are closing due to the windchill alone. Even MSU and EMU have announced closures, which is surprising since our universities _never_ close due to snow. I'm thinking it's in anticipation of the windchill. MSU in particular is very spread out, so you can't just duck-and-run between buildings when it's that cold. The University of Toledo is closed too, but their medical center will remain open, so my friend (a med student) still has to show up.

I'm still waiting to hear about my office and WMU. My office's weather line keeps repeating, "All facilities are open and operating as normal, but we are monitoring the current weather conditions across the Midwest." I have a bet with a co-worker that we'll be closed. If we're open, I have to buy him lunch tomorrow. ^_^

We've received approximately 10" of snow in the past 24 hours and are supposed to get another 5-10" by 8:00 PM Monday. I'm stoked.  Brent's thinking about working from home tomorrow, so I told him we should go sledding if I don't have to work. This is the weather we used to get every winter when we lived in our respective hometowns; we've missed it so much.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 5, 2014)

As a Born and Bred Southerner who Dislikes Cold Weather but Lived in the NE for Many Years, I Dont understand wanting to be Outside in Weather Conditions like this!  I'm watching the Idiots, er Fans in Green Bay @ the Freezer Bowl and Some of those Fools even have their Shirts Off!  It's Sunny but 40 with a Wind Chill of 20 here due to the Strong North Wind, supposed to go Down into the Low 20s Tonight and Teens tomorrow Night with Wind Chills Below 10!!! That's Darn Cold for Austin!!! :help:

Too Bad Alan B lives so far away from Michigan! He'd Love to come Shovel your Snow! :lol:


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## andersone (Jan 5, 2014)

I live on top of a hill, which if Jackson ever solicited a Winter Olympic bid, could be used for the ski jump. Went to town this afternoon, and when I returned took the ultimate precaution, parking at the bottom of the hill. They have changed the snow prediction to less than one inch, with temps dropping to -9 tomorrow with a -29 wind chill. I just wish the damn batteries were in the backup generator,,, technology is great when it works. As I am currently working from home recovering from cancer surgery, I won't have to battle the elements, but it makes me fondly remember the brutal winters in Northern Illinois and Iowa, where four inches of snow would give you five foot drifts. And for those who need a touch of humor, remember Uncle Frank's warning "watch out where the Huskies go"

Hope all fare well through this adversity.


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## SarahZ (Jan 5, 2014)

It's the wind that's going to wreak havoc tonight and tomorrow. Those gusts are going to lower visibility and create drifts on the roadways.

I'm sorry you had to have surgery. I hope you feel better soon and that you have a good prognosis. 

Jim - our neighbor used their snowblower on our driveway and sidewalk this afternoon while I shoveled the porch and walkway. We've gotten 2-3" since then, but at least we got ahead of it. I actually like shoveling.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't mind shoveling, and, except during the night, I will shovel while it's still snowing to make it easy each go around. But I certainly did not chase away my neighbor with his snow blower the other day, especially considering how cold it was.


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## JayPea (Jan 5, 2014)

Feeling even guiltier here in the great Inland Northwest.

41 degrees currently and that is as chilly as it has been all week.


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## SarahZ (Jan 5, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> I'm watching the Idiots, er Fans in Green Bay @ the Freezer Bowl and Some of those Fools even have their Shirts Off!


1) The fans are used to cold weather, but more importantly

2) The ones with their shirts off are, most likely, drunk


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## the_traveler (Jan 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I have a bet with a co-worker that we'll be closed. If we're open, I have to buy him lunch tomorrow. ^_^


... and if it's closed, you buy lunch at work tomorrow, right?


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## SarahZ (Jan 5, 2014)

My friend posted this earlier. I laughed pretty hard.


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## tim49424 (Jan 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> Not that it's any surprise, but schools across southern Michigan are closed tomorrow because of the snow and windchill, and many northern Michigan schools are closing due to the windchill alone. Even MSU and EMU have announced closures, which is surprising since our universities _never_ close due to snow. I'm thinking it's in anticipation of the windchill. MSU in particular is very spread out, so you can't just duck-and-run between buildings when it's that cold. The University of Toledo is closed too, but their medical center will remain open, so my friend (a med student) still has to show up.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear about my office and WMU. My office's weather line keeps repeating, "All facilities are open and operating as normal, but we are monitoring the current weather conditions across the Midwest." I have a bet with a co-worker that we'll be closed. If we're open, I have to buy him lunch tomorrow. ^_^
> 
> We've received approximately 10" of snow in the past 24 hours and are supposed to get another 5-10" by 8:00 PM Monday. I'm stoked.  Brent's thinking about working from home tomorrow, so I told him we should go sledding if I don't have to work. This is the weather we used to get every winter when we lived in our respective hometowns; we've missed it so much.



I had to drive right through the worst areas of the storm (St. Joseph/Niles/New Buffalo/Northern Indiana) on the way back from Wisconsin. Thank goodness it was yesterday morning. Sounds like the first real snowstorm in the last couple of years for you guys. Our problems here in Wisconsin is the dangerously cold temps (Low here tonight is predicted -27 with wind chills the next three days -40 to -50 and below, and the next time we'll see above 0 temps is Wednesday when we hit a balmy 5). Most churches cancelled services today and most, if not all schools are closed tomorrow.

I told my mom while I was there, I couldn't wait to move to "warmer climate". She said she never heard of Holland as being referred to as that until I moved out here in 2006.


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## SarahZ (Jan 5, 2014)

WMU and my office are both closed tomorrow. Yay, snow day.


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## afigg (Jan 5, 2014)

Amtrak has posted a service alert on changes to the Chicago trains with a number of cancellations. The EB is getting shut down for 2 days. Welcome to the deep freeze of 2014!

*Amtrak Makes Additional Chicago Service Modifications for Monday, Jan. 6* Federal and State Officials Call for Reduced Travel in Severe Winter Conditions; Some Freight Railroad-Owned Routes ImpassibleJan. 5, 2014
9:00 p.m. CT

Due to severe weather conditions and decreased travel demands in several states where travel advisories have been posted by the National Weather Service and state officials, Amtrak plans to operate modified service to and from Chicago on Monday, Jan. 6. Also, some of the freight railroad-owned routes used by Amtrak in the region are temporarily closed due to weather conditions or other issues.

Passengers with plans in the region on Monday, Jan. 6, are urged to consider deferring their travel and/or confirming their train's status. Significant delays are likely. A range of tools – including Amtrak.com, smartphone apps and 800-USA-RAIL – are available to assist in travel planning.

This Service Alert will be updated by 7:00 a.m. CT on Monday, Jan. 6, if necessary. Alternate transportation is not available.

The following Chicago Hub Services will not be available on Monday, Jan. 6:
• Lincoln Service Trains 300, 301 & 305 are canceled.
(Trains 302, 303, 304, 306 & 307 and Trains 21/321 & 22/322 will maintain service on the Chicago-St. Louis corridor)
• Hiawatha Service Trains 329, 332, 333, 336, 337 & 340 are canceled.
(Trains 330, 331, 334, 335, 338 & 339 will maintain service on the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor)
• Wolverine Service Trains 352 & 353 are canceled.
• Pere Marquette Train 371 is canceled.
(Trains 350, 351, 354 & 355 will maintain service on the Chicago-Ann Arbor-Detroit-Pontiac corridor)
• Carl Sandburg Trains 381 & 382 are canceled.
(Trains 380 & 383 will maintain service on the Chicago-Quincy corridor)
• Saluki Trains 391 & 392 are canceled.
(Trains 390 & 393 and Trains 58 & 59 will maintain service on the Chicago-Carbondale corridor)


These National Network Services are also modified on Monday, Jan. 6:

Empire Builder Trains 7/27/807 are canceled from Chicago to Whitefish, Mont., with Train 27 represented by buses as alternate transportation between Spokane, Wash., and Portland, Ore.

Empire Builder Train 8 will operate from Seattle to Whitefish, without service east of Whitefish. Empire Builder Train 28 will be represented by buses as alternate transportation between Portland and Spokane, connecting with Train 8.

Lake Shore Limited Trains 48 & 448 from Chicago to New York/Boston are canceled.
Lake Shore Limited Trains 49 & 449 from New York/Boston to Chicago are canceled.

(Service between Chicago and Cleveland will be maintained by Trains 29 & 30 and service in upstate New York will be maintained by Empire Service and other trains.)


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## Guest_From_Abroad (Jan 6, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> It was actually *one degree above freezing *here in Saint Paul at about 4 AM with no wind. Now it's 2F with wind chill -13F and expecting at least 15 degrees downward by morning. Then 3 days of really cold.


Naive question from someone who grew up on the more logical Celsius scale of temperature- when you guys say "above freezing" or "below freezing", whose freezing point is being referred? Are temperatures below 32 F called "below freezing" since that's where water freezes, or when the temperature actually drops below 0F its called "below freezing"? Because the latter does not make any sense, after all 0F is defined as the lowest temperature an arbitrary guy was once able to achieve using brine :unsure: It is not the freezing point of anything common :help:


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## montana mike (Jan 6, 2014)

Below 32F is below freezing


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

NW probably meant "below zero", not "below freezing".


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## Nathanael (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't think I've ever seen a preemptive LSL cancellation before. The tracks between Buffalo and Cleveland are going to stay open no matter what, so I find it a bit odd... perhaps there is worry about the equipment not being able to handle the cold (since the Empire Service and Capitol Limited, which are still running, both use different types of cars)?

There has been brutal weather lately, particularly for Michigan. Lansing, Michigan is just recovering from the ice storm.


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## Nathanael (Jan 6, 2014)

OK, so I notice that Amtrak has been substituting Superliners for single-level equipment due to freezing...

What exactly is the story with the "freezing problems" on each different types of rolling stock? These problems are supposed to be addressed with the Viewliner II design, right? (So as soon as Viewliner coaches replace Amfleets and Horizons all will be well?  )


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## NW cannonball (Jan 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> NW probably meant "below zero", not "below freezing".


Damn the Standard Units confusion

Saturday 0400 CDT was above freezing was 33F 0C

Now - too cold to think about -- -21F -29C and wind chill is -46°F (-43°C)

What worries me is not the cold - we MT, ND, MN, WI, north IL. MI are used to this.

The border states - southern IL, OH. WV, and Kentucky, Tennessee that have no Amtrak service -- and will be freezing their tails off -

"what? gramps? you say a water line can freeze solid? Naah!

Not really Amtrak related - but - hoping for rail service in Tennessee and Kentucky - and hoping this "big freeze" kills as few people as can in the unprepared border states.


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## tricia (Jan 6, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > NW probably meant "below zero", not "below freezing".
> ...


I too, hope for rail service in TN and KY! Preferably all the way down the I-81 corridor, from Harrisburg, PA, through VA to eastern TN! From where I sit in western NC, I can just about see the TN border across the Spring Creek valley. Or could if it weren't snowing so hard right now.

As for "unprepared": Here in the border states, those of us living in so-called primitive conditions, with limited modern "conveniences," are perhaps BEST prepared to cope with the weather we're having this week.

For example: We heat with wood, and have plenty of firewood stacked up, ready for me to feed into the woodstove. Electricity? We're a mile from the nearest power lines ... and our PV panels will do just fine once the sun comes out tomorrow; until then, we've got a generator for back-up.

Our iffiest infrastructure is water: friends from Maine and Michigan laugh at our spring-fed system, with pipes barely buried, and a short length actually exposed  to open air where the spring pools. Works fine for us nearly all the time. Remains to be seen how our usual cold-weather workaround will work at MINUS 4 (which definitely calls for all CAPS hereabouts). When that exposed bit of pipe freezes, we usually run a spare length from spring to underground water tank, fill tank, disconnect and drain pipe ... and repeat daily as needed. We're not at all sure that spare won't freeze solid this week--it's never been this cold here! In any case, I've got MANY gallons of water stockpiled inside the house, in case needed.

More detail than y'all probably need on a train-oriented forum. But since this thread seems to be primarily about weather (and not the only thread here where trains are only semi-related  ) I thought a post about how some of us in the southern mountains are coping with the weather wouldn't be too out of place. Aside from some grumbling about "if I wanted to live in the North, I'd move there," so far so good.


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## Ryan (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks for sharing - sounds like you're good to go.


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2014)

So Amtrak, and the rest of the US, knows about this Polar Vortex days in advance, and does WHAT? Canx trains. That is SUCH B.S.

I'm sorry, it truly is. You can claim "Host RR suggested we do so" all day long, but unless the host RR actually _prohibit _Amtrak from running, Amtrak should run, not hide under the covers.

Make staff work over-time, run trains late, but RUN them, load extra provisions. PLAN for disasters and crew changes...

Back in the winter of 78, there was a massive blizzard in Michigan, but Amtrak RAN, 5 hours late, but they RAN. Roads/Interstates were closed, airports closed, but the RAILROAD RAN.

I blame staff attorneys and PR type(s). Many companies are just TOO G.D. cautious these days, afraid of thier own farts. Yeah, the train will be late, it might even be cold, but it WILL GET YOU THERE.

No more. Amtrak wimps out at the slightest FORECAST of "improper weather". Since this IS the only National Rail Passenger company, with no competition, it makes it EZ to say, "In the interest of our employee's (and because it's the EZ way out) safety, we've decided to roll over and play dead during this latest weather incident......."

"The public won't raise a ruckus, because there is NO OTHER rail option, so they will think, 'we must be right'....."

Railroads used to be a dependable form of transportation when all other modes were shut down. Now, just another chicken-sh%t excuse to take a day off. (That's a bit of an extreme statement, but that's the emotion I feel when I read about these train canx, due to weather...)

Apologist, feel free to pile on with the reasons.............


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## VentureForth (Jan 6, 2014)

So - it's smart to run a train that you KNOW will be so late that you'll have to reimburse everyone on the train, essentially making it a free ride? If they had a chance at keeping within a 2 hr window of the schedule, I'd agree. And what do PR types have to do with this? Attorneys, I can understand.

The Cardinal just got stuck outside Indianapolis. Trip is truncated. Think the passengers are happy about that? Happy about a bustitution? Happy about paying out of pocket for accomodations? Maybe stuck on a train for 5 hours without moving?

I dunno - I think I'd rather be inconvenienced at home rather than inconvenienced enroute...

...unless I was in a sleeper.


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2014)

Venture: Most carriers today have no responsibility if weather forces their hand, that is if the train is five hours late, at least they are there. (Years ago, I chose NOT to get on the Twilight Limited in Kalamazoo, my roommate did, and I was "stuck" in Kalamazoo for three days, while he was home with his parents in Ann Arbor, albeit 5 hours late...)

So yes, unless there is "imminent danger" to the train, crew, or pax, run the damn thing. I know my view is not-politically correct.

If things continue along the same path, someday soon the USPS will stop delivering the mail, if the forecast calls for a "chance of showers..........." (If US Mail delivery is still relevant in the future)


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## montana mike (Jan 6, 2014)

According to my MT BNSF contacts BNSF is running a "close to normal" schedule of freight movements today on the Hi-Line.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 6, 2014)

tricia said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Yeah - sorry if my post implied that border states people have no clue about weather - how stupid would that be -- or that us "Northern honcho winter masters" are the only people that have a clue about weather.

"If I wanted to live in the South" with all the damned bugs --

yeah yeah.

No really, I do worry with this "ION" thing that people on the edge of the storm don't know how to deal with the cold and wind.

And I really hope that the benefits of passenger rail transport reach Kentucky and Tennessee.

Paducah is on my "got to visit" places.


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## RRUserious (Jan 6, 2014)

In MSP, I think Amtrak is worried about the health of passengers. Though frankly, Union Depot would be a great shelter from the bitter cold. If the train doesn't come there yet, then the little station on Transfer, if open, could hold a lot of freezing people. I'd probably call a cab if I HAD to go, but my last experiences with Empire Builder timeliness assures I wouldn't take train trips in January. A train would be a very bad place to be in any sort of power failure scenario.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 6, 2014)

Hopefully Amtrak and the Host Railroads will use this Event as a focus to come up with a Gameplan for when it happens again and be much more ready with a system wide response that will see more trains running their full routes at least close to on time. Freight will get through and so will passengers.

These Winters are going to continue to worsen and most Climatologists who are honest to their science and not politics will confirm this.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 6, 2014)

At MSP it is "seasonably cold" -19F -28C -- totally normal. No snow falling (if there was snow it would be worthless, too cold to make snowballs or snowmen)

No reason whatever to cancel trains. Totally normal winter weather.

No "event". Cold - sure. Use 3 layers of clothing - as always.

Me honcho Norwegian macho -- not really -- normal winter weather here -

Southeast from here may be people unaccustomed to freezing temps. This too will pass. No biggie.


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## Ryan (Jan 6, 2014)

montana mike said:


> According to my MT BNSF contacts BNSF is running a "close to normal" schedule of freight movements today on the Hi-Line.


"Normal" normal or "Massive trafficjams and delays" normal?


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## Anderson (Jan 6, 2014)

RyanS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > According to my MT BNSF contacts BNSF is running a "close to normal" schedule of freight movements today on the Hi-Line.
> ...


Well, the latter seems to be the new normal, so...


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## MikeM (Jan 6, 2014)

Yesterday's Toledo newspaper had a front page article talking about travel delays, primarily flights. However, it did interview a gentleman who had came in on the LSL because his flights were cancelled. The train was late to Toledo, and they took an extended stop in Cleveland to allow everyone to use the restroom. Apparently all but two of the train toilets had frozen up. That may have something to do with the cancellation, they're trying to thaw cars out.

On another front, has anyone heard anything about a train being stranded in Missouri today or yesterday with both engines "frozen up"? My wife had heard a news story about this earlier today but wasn't sure which train it was. Per the story, Amtrak was trying to get an engine to pick up the train, meantime hopefully passengers have been moved off. Not sure if Amtrak keeps spare engines in KC or not?


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 6, 2014)

I read the post from the employee who used to repair wiring with his bare hands in subzero weather (because the wiring work couldn't be done with gloves on) and yes, even trains are affected by temp extremes, although not as much as airplanes are. I don't think Amtrak is using adverse weather as an excuse to "give people a day off." In fact the employees on duty end up working much harder for longer hours. Finally, there are regs affecting crew rest for those who work onboard.. if it's anything like the airlines, there is a minimum rest period and when delays start to pile on, the crews will start to time out. Maybe the public doesn't care about this and maybe some will see this as being an "apologist" but I remember that by the time airline crews run up against their duty limits... that's not much rest they are getting. I imagine it's similar for the rail crews. At some point it does become a safety issue, which is another thing I think a lot of people don't think about until an accident happens.

Oh, and to that person in the first sentence, you have my admiration. That is even more manly than the Green Bay football team playing without sleeves last night.


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## montana mike (Jan 6, 2014)

RyanS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > According to my MT BNSF contacts BNSF is running a "close to normal" schedule of freight movements today on the Hi-Line.
> ...


))

4+ hour delays thru eastern MT and ND today


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## tricia (Jan 6, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> "If I wanted to live in the South" with all the damned bugs --
> 
> yeah yeah.


No bugs out here right now. ^_^

North or South ... I'd rather be on a train. Although maybe not in this week's weather.


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## Anderson (Jan 6, 2014)

Also, per fuel freezing at -10F? It's currently -9.8F in CHI. I suspect some fuel may be freezing.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 6, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Also, per fuel freezing at -10F? It's currently -9.8F in CHI. I suspect some fuel may be freezing.


I would hope Amtrak and the Hosts have switched over to Winterized Diesel


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2014)

So, let me ask an uneducated (on my part) question.

Is a Polar Vortex the same as an Alberta Clipper or an Artic Blast? If not, what is the difference (besides names)?

Edit: And then I find this on my local newspaper's website (not that it answers my question):

http://www.delawareonline.com/interactive/article/20140106/NEWS/140106002/What-polar-vortex-


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## NW cannonball (Jan 6, 2014)

In the Pacific Northwest - there is also the "Pineapple express"

So many names, so many weather surprises.


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## Anderson (Jan 6, 2014)

It's annoying. That should be sufficient


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## anir dendroica (Jan 6, 2014)

An Alberta Clipper is a low-pressure system that follows the northern jet stream, usually moving NW to SE out of Alberta. Typically they produce gusty winds but limited precipitation.

The polar vortex is a large region of upper-atmosphere low pressure and associated surface cold air that is generally located near the north pole. It is bounded by the northern jet stream. Arctic blasts occur as the vortex sags southward, though in most cases the center of circulation remains well north.

What is unusual in this case is that higher pressure near the pole has caused the polar vortex to move far south, splitting into a number of sub-vortices circulating much farther south than is typical, and bringing polar air southward with them. One of these sub-vortices is presently centered over Lake Michigan, though it is actually only the third strongest of the polar-derived systems at the moment. The strongest is centered over Siberia where temperatures are around -50F, and the second-strongest is centered just west of Greenland.

With the multiple centers of circulation, is not quite correct to say that THE polar vortex is centered over the US, but it is a once-a-decade event or so to have a polar circulation this far south.


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## MrFSS (Jan 6, 2014)

So much for global warming.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> So much for global warming.


But Tom, we're expecting a January Thaw this weekend.


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## Ryan (Jan 6, 2014)

Weather and climate are two different things.


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## eee (Jan 6, 2014)

Train 302 is 4:18 late north of Bloomington.

I'm scheduled to take that train tomorrow. Any thoughts on what's causing the delays (cold, snow, or freight) and whether tomorrow will be any better? It's a leisure trip, so I can cancel.

Return Thursday, and I'm assuming (maybe stupidly) things will be back to normal by then.


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## chakk (Jan 6, 2014)

railiner said:


> My all-time favorite weather program was called "AM Weather", which aired on some PBS stations back in the seventies or eighties....
> 
> It was a 15 or 30 minute program that aired at around 0600, and was targeted towards pilots, with mostly aviation oriented weather information....such things as winds aloft, known icing, etc.
> 
> ...


AM Weather was produced by a PBS station near Baltimore. The announcers were US Weather Service employees. Some were very good on camera. But others couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag. Still, it was quite a useful program that ran about 13 minutes and was repeated (re-recorded) about two or three times each weekday morning. I had my VCR scheduled to record each episode while I was asleep -- this was in the days before Tivo.


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## chakk (Jan 6, 2014)

JayPea said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > The NWS probably has records for 24-hour temperature drops around the country.
> ...


Daytime highs in 60s each day in SF Bay Area for the past 4 weeks with no rain. Forecast continues this for at least the next 7 days. Same old same old.


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## chakk (Jan 6, 2014)

rrdude said:


> Venture: Most carriers today have no responsibility if weather forces their hand, that is if the train is five hours late, at least they are there. (Years ago, I chose NOT to get on the Twilight Limited in Kalamazoo, my roommate did, and I was "stuck" in Kalamazoo for three days, while he was home with his parents in Ann Arbor, albeit 5 hours late...)
> 
> So yes, unless there is "imminent danger" to the train, crew, or pax, run the damn thing. I know my view is not-politically correct.
> 
> If things continue along the same path, someday soon the USPS will stop delivering the mail, if the forecast calls for a "chance of showers..........." (If US Mail delivery is still relevant in the future)


"Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds."

But wait. The so-called creed of the USPS makes no mention of cold.


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

We got both USPS and UPS deliveries today. I was impressed/grateful.


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## montana mike (Jan 6, 2014)

Warmer air heading to the East. I was looking at temps thru out much of central MT just now. They are anywhere from 15 to 40 degrees WARMER today than yesterday, with some places forecasted to reach near 40F on Tuesday. So the current cold wave should break in a couple days and if the long range progs are right, in about 10-12 days those places in the Dakotas which saw minus 40 last night could see temps in the plus 40 range--quite a swing!!


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## trainviews (Jan 6, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> So much for global warming.


Well the thing about global warming is that it's global. And here in Europe we just had the second warmest December ever, and January has started out even warmer.

Not that it says too much about global warming over time either, but assessing the climate from sticking your nose out the window is just plain naive.


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## Railroad Bill (Jan 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> We got both USPS and UPS deliveries today. I was impressed/grateful.


Yes, our mail just arrived. My wife is a former rural carrier and she is very glad she is retired today. 30 years of winter weather is enough.


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## montana mike (Jan 6, 2014)

My relatives IN GB didn't think it was warm. They said it was one of the stormiest and chilliest Decembers in the past several years--what a difference a few hundred miles makes I guess. Then in the Middle East they had snow in countries that hadn't seen the white stuff at Christmas time in decades--go figure!!!


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## tim49424 (Jan 6, 2014)

montana mike said:


> My relatives IN GB didn't think it was warm. They said it was one of the stormiest and chilliest Decembers in the past several years.



I live in the center of Wisconsin (about 3 hours SW of GB). I'd have to agree with your relatives (not on the stormiest but the chilliest part). I just got my electric bill. It's twice as big as it usually is after the December billing period. Usually the biggest energy bills come during the February and March periods.....I'm not overly anxious to see them.


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > We got both USPS and UPS deliveries today. I was impressed/grateful.
> ...


I understand. I delivered pizzas for several years, and I do not miss being cold and wet. We ordered last night (the pizza place is only a couple miles away, and our road was plowed, so we didn't feel too guilty), and I tipped the guy $10. He thanked me for the tip and then thanked me for having one of the few shoveled walkways. He had snow on his pants all the way up to his mid-thigh. I remember those days all too well.  I used to get snow up to my hips because people wouldn't shovel their porch and walkway all winter. :angry:


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

WMU just canceled classes tomorrow (Tuesday). I haven't heard about MSU and other major schools yet. I do know most, if not all, of the public school districts had already canceled school on Tuesday before I woke up this morning.


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## Slasharoo (Jan 6, 2014)

looking back at this weekend's adventure, even though our trip took 24 hours instead of 4, I don't think I would be sitting back in my toasty apartment without Amtrak. If I drove, I would probably be in a ditch, or unable to get back until later today. If I flew, I would probably still be in the airport waiting for the next available flight. Did Amtrak boot some of their responsibilities? I think so, but they had a lot of help, and in the end, they were the most reliable source of travel through the great lakes this weekend.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


I really feel for everyone Up North and the NE! It's going to be Below 20 Tonight Here in Austin and with the Wind Chill Near Zero which is Record Cold! Thank Goodness there's No Ice or Snow to Deal with!

Hope everyone stays Warm and Safe and all the Best to Those That Have to Work Outside!! :hi:


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

No. I like having four seasons, and I love snowy winters.  I'm as happy as a clam right now.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2014)

Most of our snow from last week is gone. Just expecting temps in the single digits tonight & teens tomorrow with windchills below 0. We will be near or in the 50's by the weekend.

I too enjoy having the 4 seasons. Can't appreciate the warm/hot without the cold & vis-versa.


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## tim49424 (Jan 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> No. I like having four seasons, and I love snowy winters.  I'm as happy as a clam right now.


You and my mom would get along great. She loves snow and I'm sure she is in seventh heaven right now. If it weren't for her and my sister, I'd be moving to much warmer climates than Michigan.


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## the_traveler (Jan 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> We got ... USPS ... deliveries today. I was impressed/grateful.


I get USPS deliveries everyday - sometimes delivered personally by the Postmaster! (I've got connections!  ) It helps that my bedroom shares a wall with the Post Office - and my sister is the Postmaster! :giggle:


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## JayPea (Jan 6, 2014)

I love snow, too, as long as it falls someplace else.  We've had about six inches of snow so far this winter and that's still too much as far as I'm concerned. :lol:


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## eee (Jan 6, 2014)

Looks like all the trains on the STL-CHI corridor are 5-6 hours late.

Does anyone have any idea how much improvement we can expect tomorrow? I can handle 2-3 hours late (on a five-hour trip). Five or six hours and I'd rather just cancel. I don't need to get there that badly.


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## Blackwolf (Jan 6, 2014)

Amtrak tweeting that the NEC between Baltimore and Philly is completely closed due to catenary failure.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2014)

The wind is picking up here tonight. Shall I run down the street to see if there are any wires down behind my neighbors' yards?  . HECK NO! I'm staying in my comparatively warm house tonight. (I keep the temp in the 60's to save $$).


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## Ryan (Jan 6, 2014)

Yeah, it's getting pretty windy here too. That and super tight catenary, it's bound to happen.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 6, 2014)

Fun job? Working catenary in 20 degree weather with wind in the dark.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 6, 2014)

Diesel fuel is good for -20 with simple treatment. The trick is not to turn off the engine in very cold weather. Diesel burn at +80 so a running engine will keep the fuel warm. Some engines use a fuel heaters in the tanks, some use a filter base heating system, but just the fuel running up to the engine block and unneeded fuel drain back to the tank, keeps the fuel in service.


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## SarahZ (Jan 6, 2014)

I just got the call. My office *might* open at 10:00 AM tomorrow. We're supposed to call at 7:00 AM to see if we're actually going to open at 10:00, 12:00, or not at all.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2014)

Sarah, Candid Camera once did a shoot at the PA/DE border & stopped cars coming into DE and told them DE was closed. And I think it was during warmer weather.


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## penfrydd (Jan 6, 2014)

I had forgotten all about "AM Weather". It really was an excellent weather program. Strictly science; no hype. The Albany public radio station also used to have a good morning 5 minute forecast with guys that taught meteorology. I just rely on NWS on the web. Or even better...I walk outside and look west!

As I recall from trips south on Amtrak in the late 70's, early 80's, during the winter, the spaces in between cars were much more open, and the snow would build up there.

A lifelong New Englander, the coldest I've ever seen was -28, and frankly, it didn't seem all that bad. When it gets that cold in New England, it's almost always calm, with no wind. I'm just glad I don't live near a body of water. River and lake towns are like tombs when it's cold.


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## RRUserious (Jan 7, 2014)

To think kids used to go out before sunrise in this type of weather to deliver newspapers. Hope they never got frostbite.


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## blueman271 (Jan 7, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> No. I like having four seasons, and I love snowy winters.  I'm as happy as a clam right now.


This. While I love Guam and am glad I got stationed here, I really miss the seasons. Fall and winter are my favorite and I can't wait to get stationed stateside again and see some snow.


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## VentureForth (Jan 7, 2014)

RRUserious said:


> To think kids used to go out before sunrise in this type of weather to deliver newspapers. Hope they never got frostbite.


That is how Mr. Walter Elias Disney got his start...
In Savannah, it's 20° right now. Supposed to be 76 by the end of the week, but not before we get chilly, gloomy rain.

It is these sort of drastic temp swings that wreak havoc on welded rail...


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## afigg (Jan 7, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Amtrak tweeting that the NEC between Baltimore and Philly is completely closed due to catenary failure.


With catenary failures reported at several locations, perhaps Amtrak can indeed get some of the $3 billion of Superstorm Sandy relief funds set aside for storm and weather resilience for catenary replacement. The weather related failures help make the argument. Team up with SEPTA and NJT to propose to replace the catenary with constant tension, outside of what is already being replaced in NJ for the high speed project, from Newark DE to Newark NJ (how's that for bookends). Price tag might be a sizable chunk of the $3 billion available though.


----------



## CHamilton (Jan 7, 2014)

The widespread disruptions show forcefully how skeletal and fragile Amtrak's network really is. Amtrak has done a phenomenal job of providing service to most of the country with ridiculously limited resources for 40+ years. But now we need to lobby for the sort of funding that is needed to provide a truly robust passenger rail system.


----------



## henryj (Jan 7, 2014)

Looking at the Amtrak Status maps, I have never seen anything like this. Amtrak is almost completely shut down. I guess you can say rail transportation is no longer the most reliable form of transport. Looks like buses take the lead now. Using hindsight now, I think what Amtrak should do next time this occurs is just annul all LD trains out of Chicago and New York and concentrate on keeping the NEC and a few other critical routes open. Forget the rest. People are staying home anyway.


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## andersone (Jan 7, 2014)

you arent kiding 

i just took this off of Hitchhiker's Guide To Amtrak







and what a wonderful resource the Hitchhiker is !!


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## afigg (Jan 7, 2014)

henryj said:


> Looking at the Amtrak Status maps, I have never seen anything like this. Amtrak is almost completely shut down. I guess you can say rail transportation is no longer the most reliable form of transport. Looks like buses take the lead now. Using hindsight now, I think what Amtrak should do next time this occurs is just annul all LD trains out of Chicago and New York and concentrate on keeping the NEC and a few other critical routes open. Forget the rest. People are staying home anyway.


My read of the Amtrak status maps show a lot of corridor trains are still running, even in the Chicago region. yes, some are running very late, but they are running. #808 (7) has departed MSP 20 minutes late; we will see how late it gets to CHI. The NEC is in bad shape because of catenary failures, but some trains are getting through. The west coast trains, except for the LD trains to/from CHI are doing ok.

There is no single place, AFAIK, to check how well the intercity buses are doing, but given the reports of numerous road closures, they are probably having a couple of very bad days as well.

It is the LD trains that are getting clobbered, mainly because the long routes through rural areas increase the odds of a snow drift, busted switches, traffic jams from broken down freight trains blocking the train. For the LD trains, Amtrak may have to be more aggressive in canceling LD trains in advance the next time a major deep freeze like this occurs, even if it leaves people stuck at the major stops..


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## Nathanael (Jan 7, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> So much for global warming.


Actually, turns out this is likely to be caused by "global warming" (which is a confusing name for global climate change). Global warming is an increase in the average global temperature: the added heat increases the chances of an unusually high pressure system at the pole, which is what pushed the air from the north pole down so far south.


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## Nathanael (Jan 7, 2014)

FWIW, I just finished a road trip to Michigan and back from upstate New York -- we got *very very lucky*, finessed the ice storm westbound, and finessed the polar vortex eastbound. Basically, if I had been driving on *any* days other than the particular ones I'd chosen, off by one day in any direction, there would have been trouble.

This is by way of saying: with the recent weather, roads aren't holding up so well for long-distance travel either.


----------



## SarahZ (Jan 7, 2014)

henryj said:


> Looking at the Amtrak Status maps, I have never seen anything like this. Amtrak is almost completely shut down. I guess you can say rail transportation is no longer the most reliable form of transport. * Looks like buses take the lead now.* Using hindsight now, I think what Amtrak should do next time this occurs is just annul all LD trains out of Chicago and New York and concentrate on keeping the NEC and a few other critical routes open. Forget the rest. People are staying home anyway.


I'm sorry, what? The police have been telling people to stay off the roads since Sunday. We've had over a foot of blowing, drifting snow, and the highways are still covered with black ice.

Also, this:



> Greyhound is experiencing cancelations and delays in the Midwest and the Northeast as a result of Winter Storms. Service on the following routes will be affected until further notice:
> 
> St. Louis, MO to Indianapolis, IN to Columbus, OH – round trip
> 
> ...


http://www.greyhound.com/en/servicealerts.aspx


----------



## June the Coach Rider (Jan 7, 2014)

railiner said:


> All the media love adverse weather, hoping to get concerned people glued to their sets........


We complain about the extent of the coverage, but there are people out there that would go out in the severe cold because they have never been in it before and without being told, they don't realize how quick frost bite can set in.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 7, 2014)

June the Coach Rider said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > All the media love adverse weather, hoping to get concerned people glued to their sets........
> ...


And I love how the reporters are out there doing just what they tell us not to do. Their faces are uncovered. I'm sure they cover them back up as soon as the camera is off of them, but it sends the wrong message.


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## henryj (Jan 7, 2014)

Well Sarah, everytime an Amtrak train gets into trouble they send buses, that is what I see. They just rescued passengers from #4 and #6 with buses to get them to Chicago. Looking at this critically, I would think Amtrak is better off just cancelling their LD trains out of Chicago. Hey the airlines don't even hesitate to cancel flights. If possible Amtrak could continue the Sunset Ltd and the Crescent for transcontinental travel and the trains to Florida seem to be still running. But why bother with the Lake Shore, the Cardinal and the Capitol. They aren't really essential. Amtrak can concentrate on the NEC, the Keystone service, Chi to Milwaukee and a few other short but critical routes and just wait until this blow over for the others. By the middle to the end of the week all this will be gone.


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## tim49424 (Jan 7, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> FWIW, I just finished a road trip to Michigan and back from upstate New York -- we got *very very lucky*, finessed the ice storm westbound, and finessed the polar vortex eastbound. Basically, if I had been driving on *any* days other than the particular ones I'd chosen, off by one day in any direction, there would have been trouble.
> 
> This is by way of saying: with the recent weather, roads aren't holding up so well for long-distance travel either.


I did the same thing but from Wisconsin to Michigan. I missed the ice storm by 48 hours, and the arctic vortex by less than 12 hours. Sadly, what was scheduled to be my final round trip on Amtrak from Tomah, WI to Kalamazoo, MI, from December 20 (the day of the ice storm) through December 28, ended up driving to Holland from Marshfield, WI on December 18 and due to illness not returning to Marshfield until this past Saturday, January 4. At least I made it safely and soundly each way with no major issues.


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## Ryan (Jan 7, 2014)

henryj said:


> Well Sarah, everytime an Amtrak train gets into trouble they send buses, that is what I see.


You must have missed the story of the stranded trains that buses couldn't reach.

On a related note:


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## fillyjonk (Jan 7, 2014)

June the Coach Rider said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > All the media love adverse weather, hoping to get concerned people glued to their sets........
> ...


Kind of like the interminable (well, to me, at least) announcements on the LD trains about "Wear your shoes, people!" and "Don't let children run the length of the train unattended."

Common sense ain't so common any more.

That said - I went out to help shovel a driveway path clear here (central IL) yesterday midday. It was cold, but not the instant-death cold I'd been told to expect. I did have a heavy wool coat, scarf over my face, hat, and mittens....I grew up in snowbelt country so I know how to dress.


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## AlanB (Jan 7, 2014)

rrdude said:


> Make staff work over-time, run trains late, but RUN them, load extra provisions. PLAN for disasters and crew changes...


I can't believe that you Jerry, of all people a former Amtrak worker, would write this without realizing that you CANNOT make the operating crew work over-time. And when you have trains running many hours late, you end up with operating crews that aren't rested and cannot be ordered to work. No operating crew; no moving train. Sure, you can order the OBS crews to work; but that still won't get the train moved.

And that's not being an Amtrak apologist; that is the reality of the laws thrust upon Amtrak and every other RR by the FRA.


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## Fan_Trains (Jan 8, 2014)

i was wondering if the extreme cold weather subsides, will Amtrak run the trains again on its normal schedule?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 8, 2014)

Why wouldn't they? Sure, they may need a few days to get things back on schedule due to track conditions, thawing out cars & engines & testing the crew (engineers & conductors).


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## VentureForth (Jan 8, 2014)

AlanB said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > Make staff work over-time, run trains late, but RUN them, load extra provisions. PLAN for disasters and crew changes...
> ...


 It looks like he meant that the OBS work overtime and the operating crews be lined up and ready to be rested and available.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 8, 2014)

Overtime means work in excess of 40 hours a week. An operating person can certainly work more than 40 hours a week on a schedule that does not violate the legal hours of service requirements.


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## rrdude (Jan 8, 2014)

AlanB said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > Make staff work over-time, run trains late, but RUN them, load extra provisions. PLAN for disasters and crew changes...
> ...


Well, I didn't go into detail Alan, I would never suggest that train crews exceed hr limits, but with advance planning, one CAN pre-Position relief crews, RR (pre-Amtrak) usedto do it regularly.

I'd just like to see Amtrak thought of as the "Go-To choice" for bad weather travel, it's one small ABSOLUTE & REAL ADVANTAGE that rail has over air. Why not exploit it?


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## CHamilton (Jan 8, 2014)

rrdude said:


> I'd just like to see Amtrak thought of as the "Go-To choice" for bad weather travel, it's one small ABSOLUTE & REAL ADVANTAGE that rail has over air. Why not exploit it?


Agreed. Forgive me for repeating myself, but ...



> I think that the lesson here is two-sided. Well-built, well-maintained, and plentiful passenger trains, serving a redundant network, can be inherently better at dealing with bad weather than any other form of transportation. But Amtrak has none of those features. They have managed to provide national train service for 40+ years with pitiful resources, and even this week, they have managed to do better in many ways than the airlines, the roads and the buses.
> 
> But think what they could have done with a robust system! I'm sure we'll be hearing calls for tax money to be thrown at "infrastructure," meaning air and highways, as a result of this week. It's up to us to make sure that our local, state and national elected officials know that rail is a more effective way of spending those dollars.


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## June the Coach Rider (Jan 8, 2014)

As I said on another thread, this type of extreme cold is not normal. Every other year with the cold that the mid west gets, Amtrak runs their normal schedule. This was an exception that Amtrak could not run.


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## VentureForth (Jan 8, 2014)

But Amtrak could have been better prepared for it.


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## Anderson (Jan 8, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > I'd just like to see Amtrak thought of as the "Go-To choice" for bad weather travel, it's one small ABSOLUTE & REAL ADVANTAGE that rail has over air. Why not exploit it?
> ...


Added to this, I'd like to see some "contingency operation" agreements such that if the Cap can't be run, the Cardinal gets run daily in lieu. Right now, the Card's the only option between the West Coast and the East Coast south of Canada, full stop: The Crescent can't run because of trackwork, the Cap and LSL are down for the weather, etc. Your only options are the Cardinal, the Canadian, or a Michigan-Ontario shuffle.


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## Thom Griffin (Jan 8, 2014)

Well...I have to correct my previous statement of it usually not being windy when it gets really cold, at least where I live. Last night, in Northwestern Massachusetts, it was -20, and the winds were blowing fiercely. Not a great evening for a swim.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 8, 2014)

I agree with rrdude, run the darn trains.


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## afigg (Jan 8, 2014)

According to a service alert on the Amtrak website, the Northeast routes will be back to a normal schedule on Thursday.

"Amtrak Acela Express, Northeast Regional, Empire, Keystone and other corridor services are expected to resume normal operation on a full schedule effective Thursday, Jan. 9, 2014"

Now we will see when the Midwest corridors and LD trains out of Chicago will be back to a normal schedule.


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## guest (Jan 8, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> But Amtrak could have been better prepared for it.


So could everyone else whose pipes froze, cars broke down, roofs collapsed,etc. So could the government. What's your point?

Everyone knows Amtrak could be better ANYTHING if there was real money behind it.


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## guest (Jan 8, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> The widespread disruptions show forcefully how skeletal and fragile Amtrak's network really is. Amtrak has done a phenomenal job of providing service to most of the country with ridiculously limited resources for 40+ years. But now we need to lobby for the sort of funding that is needed to provide a truly robust passenger rail system.


Yes


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2014)

Let's hope the new locomotives and coaches for the midwest are better able to tolerate the midwest cold. I know these temps are not the normal but equipment should be built to tolerate the worst possible scenario for cold.


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## AlanB (Jan 8, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> Overtime means work in excess of 40 hours a week. An operating person can certainly work more than 40 hours a week on a schedule that does not violate the legal hours of service requirements.


Bill,

Agreed. While I used Jerry's words, I should have been more clear that one cannot force the operating crew to exceed their hours of service and rest periods; which as you note do not preclude the possibility of overtime.


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## AlanB (Jan 8, 2014)

rrdude said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > rrdude said:
> ...


Jerry,

RR's (pre-Amtrak) had many, many more crews that does Amtrak. Furthermore, back then passenger service was their pride, so they could & would pull a freight crew from a freight train leaving it sitting in the yard just to get the passenger train over the road first. And the rules on hours of service have been tightened some since then too I believe.

This is not to suggest that Amtrak couldn't try to do a bit better; but they'll never be able to do what used to happen pre-Amtrak.


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## oldtimer (Jan 8, 2014)

Amtrak as a cost saving measure has cut the number of employees on an extra board. These employees would be ready to take over when the normally assigned employees come to the end of their Federally mandated 12 hours of on duty time. In addition to that the retirement of the "baby boomers" has had a great impact on all of Amtrak forces especially mechanical and operating. When you lose an employee with 30+ years of experience and only then you hire someone probably with no railroad experience as Amtrak's pay levels are the lowest among unionized railroads you have suffered a letdown in efficiency and productivity.

Oldtimer

PS Mrs. Oldtimer and I have over 70 years combined experience with Amtrak.

PPS Now both happily retired.


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## VentureForth (Jan 9, 2014)

Oldtimer - I respect your point of view and I appreciate your time in service and your wealth of experience. I don't understand how an extra board would cost a significant amount of money. To me it seems like it's only used when necessary and could, in fact, reduce double and triple overtime. Sure, keeping more employees on the books costs money in benefits, but the extra board is usually the junior crew waiting for the priviledge to serve.

As for being the lowest among unionized workforces in the RR industry - perhaps Class I's, but I don't think shortline railroad employees are getting Amtrak wages. If the pay wasn't as good, why does it appear that many in the freight industry want to work their way to pax service?

And to our anonymous guest - It doesn't have to cost a lot of money to prevent outages. Ever hear the phrase "An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure?" It's generally much cheaper to prevent damage than to fix damage.


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## OBS (Jan 9, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Oldtimer - I respect your point of view and I appreciate your time in service and your wealth of experience. I don't understand how an extra board would cost a significant amount of money. To me it seems like it's only used when necessary and could, in fact, reduce double and triple overtime. Sure, keeping more employees on the books costs money in benefits, but the extra board is usually the junior crew waiting for the priviledge to serve.
> 
> As for being the lowest among unionized workforces in the RR industry - perhaps Class I's, but I don't think shortline railroad employees are getting Amtrak wages. If the pay wasn't as good, why does it appear that many in the freight industry want to work their way to pax service?
> 
> And to our anonymous guest - It doesn't have to cost a lot of money to prevent outages. Ever hear the phrase "An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure?" It's generally much cheaper to prevent damage than to fix damage.


The reason an extra board costs a significant amount of money is that each extra board employee is a full time employee. Even if they never leave their house to come to work they are guaranteed a salary of a 40 hour work week, plus their benefits. Thus the struggle of keeping an "optimum" level of extra board in all the operating/OBS crafts at Amtrak.


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## CHamilton (Jan 9, 2014)

An interesting article on rail systems that are optimized for cold weather. http://midwesthsr.org/cold-weather-passenger-trains


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2014)

oldtimer said:


> Amtrak as a cost saving measure has cut the number of employees on an extra board. These employees would be ready to take over when the normally assigned employees come to the end of their Federally mandated 12 hours of on duty time.


Part of this is due to the skeletal nature of the network. It makes sense to have substantial extra boards in the busy NEC, or around Los Angeles where Amtrak runs Metrolink under contract, or even in Chicago maybe. But you cannot justify it in North Dakota for one-a-day, and probably not even in western NY for four-a-day.


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## greatcats (Jan 9, 2014)

There probably is a small extra board at each terminal, such as Albuquerque, NM or Shelby, MT, where the crews run in both directions. But with one train in each direction daily, there are not likely to be more than a handful of crew available. They are there to protect sick or personal vacancies and vacations, with some allowance being made for " dogcatcher " service. When the service went down the tubes this past week, they likely just ran out of crews with proper rest and some annulments had to be made.


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## VentureForth (Jan 10, 2014)

In this week's cases, I really would have expected Amtrak to have used a helicopter to fly a crew from Chicago to the disabled trains (only 80 or so miles), and let them parachute in.

Obviously kidding.

Now, I've been shot down on this in the past, but it seems like there would be a way to keep a crew technically at rest ONBOARD the train. I get it on freights that you can't just jump into a 2nd or 3rd loco, stretch a sleeping bag across the floor and be expected to be up and at 'em in 8 hours. But with a transdorm and a diner, I still can't believe that they can't have two to three operating crews ONBOARD that can rotate. I know that the Unions would never go for it, and I know that the FRA would never buy off. But it seems like it could be successful.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 10, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Now, I've been shot down on this in the past, but it seems like there would be a way to keep a crew technically at rest ONBOARD the train. I get it on freights that you can't just jump into a 2nd or 3rd loco, stretch a sleeping bag across the floor and be expected to be up and at 'em in 8 hours. But with a transdorm and a diner, I still can't believe that they can't have two to three operating crews ONBOARD that can rotate. I know that the Unions would never go for it, and I know that the FRA would never buy off. But it seems like it could be successful.


Of course the unions would, as long as it's covered in the agreements.

I'll ask the FRA what they think.

jb


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## greatcats (Jan 10, 2014)

I have been on some Trans Pacific flights, such as Air New Zealand where there are crew rest facilities up on the tail section of the 747 for the relief crew. Whether a Transdorm car would be considered a proper rest facility I don't know. What is being discussed here is pretty theoretical and not likely to happen on Amtrak.


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## Nathanael (Jan 10, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Now, I've been shot down on this in the past, but it seems like there would be a way to keep a crew technically at rest ONBOARD the train. I get it on freights that you can't just jump into a 2nd or 3rd loco, stretch a sleeping bag across the floor and be expected to be up and at 'em in 8 hours. But with a transdorm and a diner, I still can't believe that they can't have two to three operating crews ONBOARD that can rotate. I know that the Unions would never go for it, and I know that the FRA would never buy off. But it seems like it could be successful.


This actually might make a lot of sense for those long routes through the middle of nowhere. I'm sure Amtrak would have to pay "away from home" bonuses, but it might work better than having so many crew bases scattered across the Mountain West for so few trains.

Probably makes no sense anywhere where a crewbase is supporting more than one-a-day (so not even on the Silver Service route) but I think there are quite a lot of crewbases supporting only one-a-day. Perhaps something Amtrak could consider for its next BLET negotiation.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 10, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I have been on some Trans Pacific flights, such as Air New Zealand where there are crew rest facilities up on the tail section of the 747 for the relief crew. Whether a Transdorm car would be considered a proper rest facility I don't know. What is being discussed here is pretty theoretical and not likely to happen on Amtrak.


I agree with your last sentence. Also, on a TPAC flight the 747 isn't going to put down in Raratonga just to take on new crew. That would be hugely expensive and time-consuming. At least on Amtrak, the stops are being made anyway.

The obvious downside to the en route rest facility plan would be that it would take away revenue space in the Transdorm car, OR would require some sort of complicated room-sharing agreement that the unions probably would not go for.


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## Ryan (Jan 10, 2014)

You'd run into problems with the crew having to be qualified on the territory - right now they only need to know their 10 hour stretch (or maybe the 10 hour stretch in each direction from their crew base) and most of the time on the same host RR.

Going to a "rotational onboard crewing" type setup, the crew would have to be qualified from endpoint to endpoint, including all of the host RR's that the route touches..


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## leemell (Jan 10, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I have been on some Trans Pacific flights, such as Air New Zealand where there are crew rest facilities up on the tail section of the 747 for the relief crew. Whether a Transdorm car would be considered a proper rest facility I don't know. What is being discussed here is pretty theoretical and not likely to happen on Amtrak.


It used to be common almost all transoceanic flights (slower planes). I'm not sure about now, but many transoceanic flights had at least a third pilot and these planes have (have) a rest bunk in the cockpit.


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## jis (Jan 10, 2014)

Pilots don't have to be specifically qualified for every mile of the route they fly, unlike railroad engineers. So all this business about using ULH flights as an example to figure out how to manage operating staff on LD trains is grossly misguided at best.


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## greatcats (Jan 10, 2014)

Airline operations are obviously quite different. The point has to do with hours of service limitations, not qualifications.


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## jis (Jan 10, 2014)

More like definition of what counts towards hours of service methinks. The pilots on ULH flights are not allowed to be actively flying the plane beyond the standard hours of service. But the rest up in the loft above the cabin counts as break in hours of service as far as operating hours restrictions are concerned.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 13, 2014)

John Bobinyec said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Now, I've been shot down on this in the past, but it seems like there would be a way to keep a crew technically at rest ONBOARD the train. I get it on freights that you can't just jump into a 2nd or 3rd loco, stretch a sleeping bag across the floor and be expected to be up and at 'em in 8 hours. But with a transdorm and a diner, I still can't believe that they can't have two to three operating crews ONBOARD that can rotate. I know that the Unions would never go for it, and I know that the FRA would never buy off. But it seems like it could be successful.
> ...


The FRA didn't buy it. Amtrak sleepers WOULD provide sufficient rest, but only if they were *stationary*. That's what I was told.

jb


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## fairviewroad (Jan 13, 2014)

John Bobinyec said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


How could a sleeper be considered sufficient rest, what with those breakfast announcements at 06026!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 13, 2014)

So on the highway side of the DOT it ok and legal to rest in a sleeper when a truck is moving. But on the railroad side a railroad sleeper car with a dinner car available is not a legal rest location for the T/E crew.


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## Anderson (Jan 13, 2014)

I get a feeling that the airline situation evolved out of necessity: Without allowing some sort of "on-board rest", a number of routes would have been difficult-to-impossible until the 1950s (with jet engines). Even now, there would be some non-starter routes, but a lot of those could be handled "simply" by having a crew switch in places such as Hawaii, Fiji, etc.

Railroads never got into that sort of necessity situation. In the early 20th Century, the response would have been "put a town with a hotel at a crew change point"...if you didn't hit a crew change before then, which union rules at the time tended to ensure.


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## jis (Jan 14, 2014)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So on the highway side of the DOT it ok and legal to rest in a sleeper when a truck is moving. But on the railroad side a railroad sleeper car with a dinner car available is not a legal rest location for the T/E crew.


Well Highways are known to be less safe than the railroads


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## Nathanael (Jan 14, 2014)

John Bobinyec said:


> The FRA didn't buy it. Amtrak sleepers WOULD provide sufficient rest, but only if they were *stationary*. That's what I was told.
> 
> jb


This is silliness -- if it's been good enough to sell to elite passengers for 150 years, it's good enough for the crew -- but it's the FRA, home of the "make trains heavier" regulations, so what do you expect.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 14, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > The FRA didn't buy it. Amtrak sleepers WOULD provide sufficient rest, but only if they were *stationary*. That's what I was told.
> ...


I would disagree. I am one who doesn't sleep very well on a moving train, but if the train stops somewhere, I'm out like a light.

jb


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## VentureForth (Jan 14, 2014)

If you were on a train on a regular basis with a private room and fed by the crack dining team, you'd probably get used to it pretty quick and find plenty of rest before moving back up into the engine room. When I travel, I have a hard time sleeping on my first day in the train. But it's mostly out of excitement and wanting to savor every moment I paid for. By the 3rd day, I can easily get 8 hours of solid sleep. Add a good breakfast and shower, and I'm good for the day.


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 14, 2014)

Shouldn't safety always be our first concern? Having fully rested crews working on territories well know to them seems more important that an occasional blip where trains have to wait for rested crews.


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## CHamilton (Jan 17, 2014)

Return of the polar vortex: Cold, at times downright frigid for end of January; increasing snow chances



> The remainder or January is expected to be colder than normal, sometimes downright frigid. The pattern is very similar to the pattern during the first week of January when temperatures plunged more than 20 degrees below normal in the so-called polar vortex event. This time, the cold could stick around for a longer duration.
> 
> Temperatures should average well below normal starting around next Tuesday, lasting at least through the end of January.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 17, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Return of the polar vortex: Cold, at times downright frigid for end of January; increasing snow chances
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You love being a bearer of good news, don't you Charlie?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 17, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Return of the polar vortex: Cold, at times downright frigid for end of January; increasing snow chances
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This confirms the various models I have been running. There is so much Arctic cold energy built up in that region it throws off the Polar Vortexes much like the Sun periodically throws off Solar Flares or CMEs. We have a lot of hard Winter still ahead of us, a trend that many Climatologists see continuing for many years.


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## henryj (Jan 17, 2014)

See the BBC, "Has the Sun Gone to Sleep". It's the end of global warming. lol. www.bbc.co.uk/science-environment.25771510 Will New York freeze over?


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## SarahZ (Jan 17, 2014)

I don't like the way they're trying to freak people out with the whole "Return of the Polar Vortex" (dun dun dun) headline.

When I read the article and looked at our 10-day forecast, yeah, it's going to be a bit colder than normal (as they state), but not -40 to -60 like it was a couple of weeks ago. Michigan (especially northern Michigan) occasionally has temperatures just below zero during the winter, and we call it a "cold snap". It's _January, _for crying out loud. January is pretty much always our coldest month, as evidenced by my heating bills for the past 17 years. 

It's nothing to get all worked up about, but the news is certainly trying to work everyone into a fever pitch again. :angry:


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 17, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I don't like the way they're trying to freak people out with the whole "Return of the Polar Vortex" (dun dun dun) headline.
> 
> When I read the article and looked at our 10-day forecast, yeah, it's going to be a bit colder than normal (as they state), but not -40 to -60 like it was a couple of weeks ago. Michigan (especially northern Michigan) occasionally has temperatures just below zero during the winter, and we call it a "cold snap". It's _January, _for crying out loud. January is pretty much always our coldest month, as evidenced by my heating bills for the past 17 years.
> 
> It's nothing to get all worked up about, but the news is certainly trying to work everyone into a fever pitch again. :angry:


Yeah, they're saying it's going to be bitterly cold here next week. High's in the 20's and lows in the teens. Maybe for the younger set who haven't expereinced those kinds of temps, but us old folks have been through it a few times. Not saying I like the cold, but I do know how to dress for it.


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## Nathanael (Jan 17, 2014)

This is just normal cold. Actually, it's unduly warm here in upstate NY... much warmer than it should be.


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## hessjm (Jan 17, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I don't like the way they're trying to freak people out with the whole "Return of the Polar Vortex" (dun dun dun) headline.
> 
> When I read the article and looked at our 10-day forecast, yeah, it's going to be a bit colder than normal (as they state), but not -40 to -60 like it was a couple of weeks ago. Michigan (especially northern Michigan) occasionally has temperatures just below zero during the winter, and we call it a "cold snap". It's _January, _for crying out loud. January is pretty much always our coldest month, as evidenced by my heating bills for the past 17 years.
> 
> It's nothing to get all worked up about, but the news is certainly trying to work everyone into a fever pitch again. :angry:


Sarah, the last GFS model I saw for West Michigan was projecting temperatures of -10 to -14 for the beginning of next week. That is air temperature not wind chill. This mornings Area Forecast Discussion from the National Weather Service talked about even colder air for the next week. So batten down the hatches! ️


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## henryj (Jan 17, 2014)

One has to keep their sense of humor when viewing all this polar vortex stuff. Hollywood has made and people have written all kinds of doomsday scenarios about the next ice age such as the book 'The Coming Global Superstorm' and the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" about when Manhattan freezes over. Other gems are "2012:Ice Age", "Artic Blast", "Ice Twisters", "Disaster from Down Under", and "Ice, Ice Baby". Doomsday sells.

But, we might be in for some colder winters for the next decade or two. Don't throw away your heavy coats just yet. This winter was the first freeze we have had here in Houston in two or three years.


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## SarahZ (Jan 17, 2014)

hessjm said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like the way they're trying to freak people out with the whole "Return of the Polar Vortex" (dun dun dun) headline.
> ...


It's like I didn't leave the U.P. or something.  It followed me downstate.


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## RRUserious (Feb 10, 2014)

Truth is that this winter has yet to make it into the top 10 coldest winters in Minnesota. The temps have been "below normal" BUT that "normal" is only for a couple of decades.


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## SarahZ (Feb 10, 2014)

http://www.mlive.com/weather/index.ssf/2014/02/whos_ready_for_some_good_news.html


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## jis (Feb 11, 2014)

Looks like we are in for another 3" to 6" Wednesday night into Thursday afternoon. Should not be a problem around here, though space for putting the snow is starting to get a bit short, and I see some already starting to truck snow away to dump them so as to clear space for the next round.


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## jacorbett70 (Feb 11, 2014)

On the 30th St Station Solari board Amtrak referred to the "Pax Storm!" Pax is the name the Weather Channel gave to the storm in the Southeast that is expected to develop into a nor'easter later this week. Then again since "pax" is short for passengers, maybe there is another sort of storm they are bracing for.  While I was there, the status of train 91(11) changed from "Delayed" to "Cancelled" on the board.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12463629033/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12463629233/


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## fairviewroad (Feb 11, 2014)

Service Alert posted for the next storm



> Amtrak Suspends Service in the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic regions
> 
> In coordination with CSX Transportation, Amtrak will suspend service due to the latest winter storm forecast for the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic regions.
> The suspension in service is designed to maintain service on most routes while reducing exposure of Amtrak passengers, crews and rail equipment to extreme weather conditions.
> ...


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## jacorbett70 (Feb 11, 2014)

They changed the sign to take off Pax and just say winter storm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12471327075/


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## PRR 60 (Feb 11, 2014)

jacorbett70 said:


> They changed the sign to take off Pax and just say winter storm
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12471327075/


And they also changed "maybe" to "may be." Someone must have actually read the notice.


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## Ryan (Feb 11, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> jacorbett70 said:
> 
> 
> > They changed the sign to take off Pax and just say winter storm
> ...


The "maybe" bothered me more than the "pax".


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## Phil S (Feb 12, 2014)

leemell said:


> Dan O said:
> 
> 
> > Bruce-C said:
> ...


I remember that well. I was 5 years old. We lived in downtown LA near Sunset Park, on top of a hill. That morning the lawn had maybe 2" of snow. First time my younger brother, our dog, or I had seen snow.


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