# HSR with low platforms?



## Shawn Ryu (Sep 11, 2013)

Having rode KTX, which uses 550mm platform, is it possible for CAHSR to use low level platform for the HSR to be interchangable with Caltrain?


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 11, 2013)

Depends on the design of their cars, I would imagine.

By the way, what is KTX?


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## the_traveler (Sep 11, 2013)

I assume "550mm" means 550 millimeter. So a 550mm platform is less than 2 feet? That's almost hard enough just to walk across. Most doors in houses are 30" - or 2 1/2 feet. Thus anyone using a walker or wheelchair could not use a 550mm platform.(they're wider than that.) Even a person using crutches would find it hard!


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## Eric S (Sep 11, 2013)

How does the platform height affect the ability to walk on it?


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## the_traveler (Sep 11, 2013)

Eric S said:


> How does the platform height affect the ability to walk on it?


I thought it meant width. High level platforms are 48" or 4 feet high. That's over 1 meter high, or 1,000 mm.


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## PerRock (Sep 11, 2013)

CAHSR wouldn't be interchangeable in the first place. Being HSR it'll have it's own dedicated ROW.

peter


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## Eric S (Sep 11, 2013)

I believe the planning for CAHSR assumes the use of Caltrain and Metrolink corridors in the SF and LA urbanized areas and new, dedicated ROW in between.


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## Texan Eagle (Sep 12, 2013)

PerRock said:


> CAHSR wouldn't be interchangeable in the first place. Being HSR it'll have it's own dedicated ROW.


Except when it won't. CAHSR envisions a "blended system" with HSR trains sharing the existing Caltrain ROW from San Francisco to Gilroy (or at least San Jose) with stops in Milbrae and Palo Alto. Both stations have low level platforms, so either CAHSR will have to be low-level compatible or Caltrain will have to get new rolling stock that allows level boarding, and increase heights of all 23 stations along the route.


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## Shawn Ryu (Sep 12, 2013)

Eric S said:


> I believe the planning for CAHSR assumes the use of Caltrain and Metrolink corridors in the SF and LA urbanized areas and new, dedicated ROW in between.


Yea, to save money I presume. Makes sense. Increase Caltrain speed too.

Whats the height for Superliners? I figure platforms made to accomodate them and similar trains are common in Cali.


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## WICT106 (Sep 12, 2013)

This could be done with a Talgo design.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2013)

One big difference between Europe and the US is that Europeans in general do not require level boarding. For example tog et onto any TGV at most stations you have to take a step up from the platform, and a step extends out of the train to get closer to the platform when the door opens.

550mm (21.6") is one of the standard platform heights in Europe. There are others.


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## Shawn Ryu (Sep 12, 2013)

WICT106 said:


> This could be done with a Talgo design.


What about TGV? Those serve 550MM height platforms.

And KTX is in S.Korea btw.

Is 550MM low platform?


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## PerRock (Sep 12, 2013)

We don't require level boarding, but we do require (as does europe) that unlevel board have a level ADA option, usually a lift.

peter


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## the_traveler (Sep 12, 2013)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Whats the height for Superliners? I figure platforms made to accomodate them and similar trains are common in Cali.


Superliners have doors that are 18" high - above the rail I mean.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2013)

Most of Europe requires you to step up into the train from the platform as in this example at Waterloo International in London back in 2000:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kde6pckvlocdj2d/Dscn0377.jpg

Of course for the wheelchair bound a bridge plate is provided by a train crew.

Also notice the huge gap between train and platform. With us dumb Americans everybody would probably be dropping through the gap, and yet Europeans seldom fall through those gaps.


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## George Harris (Sep 12, 2013)

The issue is not dumb Americans, but Americans with Disabilities Act, which says that the gap shall not exceed 3 inches horizontally and 5/8 inches vertically. The use of bridge plates and such is firmly discouraged. Use of bridge plates really increases station dwell time. Since standing still really works against high average speeds, you really want to avoid needing to do that.

The Shinkansen line platforms come very close to meeting ADA, in fact so close that the difference is all but unnoticable to those walking.

The European version of ADA is much less restrictive than the American law.

I don't think the details are worked out yet, but chances are that Calif HS trains will be using their own platforms even when running on Metrolink or Caltrain.

The first KTX cars were essentially TGV cars except the paint job. Don't know how true that is of the ones since.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2013)

Facetiously speaking.... in the American LD network it really does not matter how much time it takes to board folks apparently, since they spend 10 minutes carefully examining everyone's ticket on the platform anyway. 

Somehow the one step thing in Europe does not seem to adversely impact their dwell times too much, though of course the way the Japanese have it set up is the best by a long shot.

In Europe, partly because there is an expectation that there is a gap, or rather there is no expectation of absence of gap, people are just more careful about it. In the US there appears to be an expectation of no gap and hence the problem when there is one.

This is of course a bit orthogonal but related to the issue of legal requirements. But when a legal expectation is created of "no gap" then it has to be met no matter what the cost, because it is a legal requirement. Whereas when the legal requirement is not as tight as is the casein Europe there is more wiggle room, people understand that and behave accordingly.

As matter of reality, the legal requirement in US is more often not met than met. A quick survey of a dozen or two randomly picked station makes that abundantly evident. Nor is the legal requirement enforced very diligently by anyone apparently.


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## PerRock (Sep 12, 2013)

George Harris said:


> The issue is not dumb Americans, but Americans with Disabilities Act, which says that the gap shall not exceed 3 inches horizontally and 5/8 inches vertically. The use of bridge plates and such is firmly discouraged. Use of bridge plates really increases station dwell time. Since standing still really works against high average speeds, you really want to avoid needing to do that.


You sure that's right? cause it would mean that the majority of the Midwest Amtrak stations (including CUS) are not up to standards. Most are low level platforms with high-level cars (horizons) using them, you have to climb the steps (5 or 6 I think) to board, or request a lift. All of the non-electric Metra stations are the same.

peter


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## Trogdor (Sep 12, 2013)

PerRock said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > The issue is not dumb Americans, but Americans with Disabilities Act, which says that the gap shall not exceed 3 inches horizontally and 5/8 inches vertically. The use of bridge plates and such is firmly discouraged. Use of bridge plates really increases station dwell time. Since standing still really works against high average speeds, you really want to avoid needing to do that.
> ...


But those stations get around it by having portable wheelchair lifts (for Amtrak), or lifts built into the cars (on Metra). While I don't know the exact regulations, I'd guess that what George is saying is the requirement for level boarding (i.e. no need for lift/ramp).


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## George Harris (Sep 13, 2013)

Since my Amtrak riding in the last few years has all been in California, I can't say about the examine everybody's ticket on the platform in other places, but it does not happen here. We get on the train and the conductor comes through like my train riding experience in the US back to the 1950's.

Yes, the requirements I listed are those for level boarding. If not available, then you need a lift. The normal low level platform is 8 inches above the rail and 5'-1" offset from track centerline. With that, you obviously need the lift if the person cannot climb steps.


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