# Superliners on Cardinal route?



## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

I was wondering if Superliner (or cars of that height) cars could fit on the Cardinal route from CHI-WAS, because I have read that when it only ran from CHI-WAS, it would run with Viewliners or Superliners, depending on availability. Is there anything that would limit Superliner cars on that route that has been installed/demolished->(route that would accommodate Superliners).


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> I was wondering if Superliner (or cars of that height) cars could fit on the Cardinal route from CHI-WAS, because I have read that when it only ran from CHI-WAS, it would run with Viewliners or Superliners, depending on availability. Is there anything that would limit Superliner cars on that route that has been installed/demolished->(route that would accommodate Superliners).



I just want to make sure I understand what you're asking.

You're asking if anything precludes operating Superliners on the Cardinal route between CHI-WAS....after posting that you read Superliners operated on the route between CHI-WAS.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the route can handle the superliners. Of course, a search would have revealed these threads which clearly answers your question:

Superliner on 5/9 Cardinal

Cardinal surprise


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

What I was asking was "Can the current route accommodate Superliners?"


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> What I was asking was "Can the current route accommodate Superliners?"


Yes it can, though since 2002 it has been very rare to get superliners on the route.


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## greatcats (Jul 14, 2016)

The Superliners will not fit into New York Penn.


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## greatcats (Jul 14, 2016)

The platforms for Superliners are not compatible with the high level platforms of the Northeast Corridor


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jul 14, 2016)

That would not be possible unless some existing Superliners running on shortlines are released (if and when Nippon Sharyo delivers the promised bilevels) or Superliner III's are introduced (which is unlikely unless funding or other possible issues are resolved), although running Superliners can increase route revenues. For optimal improvements, the Cardinal should also be made daily. There are enough Regionals or Acelas running between DC and NYC every day. Of course, to bring the Superliner'ed Cardinal into the NEC and NY Penn, some major restructuring on the platforms that it currently stops on (NY Penn, Newark Penn, Trenton, Philly 30th Street, Wilmington, and Baltimore) so it becomes low-level platform, and raise the ceiling on some tunnels (including the problematic New York tunnels), in which such chances are slim to none.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

Run the Superliners to WAS, not NYP


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jul 14, 2016)

My bad. I meant to run the superliners into DC. I only mentioned NY Penn to state that it was impossible to run Superliners into Penn, saying what must take place before that happens.


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## saxman (Jul 14, 2016)

Amtrak collects way more revenue by running the train all the way to NYP. The train will always be single level now. Now if Amtrak could come up with another dome car, I think this route would be perfect for it. They'd have to take it off in WAS though.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

How does it get WAY more revenue, why not run an extension train with a cross platform transfer, not unlike the BOS 448/449 stub, but with a proper dining car for meals


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

A dome car would be awesome, they should try leasing some from VIA Rail


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> What I was asking was "Can the current route accommodate Superliners?"


The two links from thirdrail7 were from 2015 and 2014. Doesn't that answer your question? They can run from CHI-WAS. They cannot run from WAS-NYP


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> How does it get WAY more revenue, why not run an extension train with a cross platform transfer, not unlike the BOS 448/449 stub, but with a proper dining car for meals


Most people don't like transfers, and NYP is the single most used station in the network. The Boston train is usually not a stub, but a section similar to 7/27 and 8/28. It is usually combined with the New York section between Chicago and Albany.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> How does it get WAY more revenue, why not run an extension train with a cross platform transfer, not unlike the BOS 448/449 stub, but with a proper dining car for meals


Until the track work, 449/448 were not cross platform transfers. You stayed on the train and your car was hooked up/removed from 49/48.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 14, 2016)

I like saxman's idea of adding a dome car at WAS to the Viewliner. They have to change engines there in both directions anyway, so they could add/remove a dome car at the same time.

norfolkwesternhenry--

I understand your idea of taking the NER to WAS and then getting a Superliner, but to begin and end a trip on one of the Regionals would be a real letdown. I can avoid them going south, but have to take them going north (I'm in NJ). They are crowded, plus you're going through some of the most depressing-looking views you could imagine between New York and Philly, and (except for a few rivers), it doesn't get much better til past Washington. Much nicer to go through all that in a comfortable roomette and eating a meal (even on the Cardinal, in whatever they consider a diner and whatever they consider a meal) than sitting for several hours in what is basically glorified commuter rail.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > How does it get WAY more revenue, why not run an extension train with a cross platform transfer, not unlike the BOS 448/449 stub, but with a proper dining car for meals
> ...


 how long will the stub last?


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > norfolkwesternhenry said:
> ...


Until the platform upgrades are done in Albany. The track work is done, the switches are reportedly in place and ready, and the platforms are being ?lengthened? right now.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I like saxman's idea of adding a dome car at WAS to the Viewliner. They have to change engines there in both directions anyway, so they could add/remove a dome car at the same time.
> 
> norfolkwesternhenry--
> 
> I understand your idea of taking the NER to WAS and then getting a Superliner, but to begin and end a trip on one of the Regionals would be a real letdown. I can avoid them going south, but have to take them going north (I'm in NJ). They are crowded, plus you're going through some of the most depressing-looking views you could imagine between New York and Philly, and (except for a few rivers), it doesn't get much better til past Washington. Much nicer to go through all that in a comfortable roomette and eating a meal (even on the Cardinal, in whatever they consider a diner and whatever they consider a meal) than sitting for several hours in what is basically glorified commuter rail.


 NO!I mean taking a NER set, adding a dining car, and reserving it ONLY for the Cardinal passengers, business for sleeper, coach for coach


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

With the Ultradomes, would the single level "panorama" (VIA Rail's name), cars fit into NYP? My problem is that there is no SSL equivalent, so the best place is your room/seat or an Amfleet cafe car. Bring sightseeing lounges to the Cardinal!!


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > I like saxman's idea of adding a dome car at WAS to the Viewliner. They have to change engines there in both directions anyway, so they could add/remove a dome car at the same time.
> ...


why reserve an entire set just for a relatively small number of passengers?A NER set has a capacity north of 500 passengers, in just coach!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 14, 2016)

Oh, sorry Henry, I misunderstood. But trust me on this--the NER is quite possibly the most miserable of what Amtrak has to offer, and the less time you have to spend on one, the better.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> Until the platform upgrades are done in Albany. The track work is done, the switches are reportedly in place and ready, and the platforms are being ?lengthened? right now.


Trackwork is far from done. Currently ALB is operating with only two platform tracks. The middle two platform tracks are torn up and need to be relaid. It looks like that will happen after the seemingly excruciatingly slow process of extending the platforms is completed. I'll see in October when I take the LSL again if any further progress has been made.


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

jis said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > Until the platform upgrades are done in Albany. The track work is done, the switches are reportedly in place and ready, and the platforms are being ?lengthened? right now.
> ...


Thanks for the update, I thought that the Albany station thread stated that it was completed, but I may be mistaken.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2016)

I just passed through ALB earlier this week on the LSL, as usual delayed over 45 mins for nothing.


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## saxman (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> How does it get WAY more revenue, why not run an extension train with a cross platform transfer, not unlike the BOS 448/449 stub, but with a proper dining car for meals


Amtrak did some analyzing and saw that there's a big demand for people traveling on the Cardinal to go beyond WAS and into the NEC. I don't have the numbers, but it was quite the difference. Lots of passengers don't like to transfer. I had lunch with a lady who lives in Wilmington and takes the train to Chicago quite a bit. She said she only takes the Cardinal because it is the only direct train between Chicago and the cities between WAS and NYP. I even asked about taking the much faster Capitol Ltd with a quick transfer in WAS. She simply stated that she hates transferring. I know this is anecdotal, but there are others just like this. You describe a cross platform transfer, but thats just inefficient. You may as well have them take an already busy Regional. Amtrak is not going to have a cross platform transfer for a train that runs only three days a week just so they can give the Cardinal Superliner equipment. You may as well just run the cars all the way to NYP and collect the extra sleeping car revenue to boot.

I wouldn't mind see through cars added to the Capitol Ltd. to go down to Florida or something.


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## SarahZ (Jul 14, 2016)

saxman said:


> I wouldn't mind see through cars added to the Capitol Ltd. to go down to Florida or something.


Seconded.


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## PVD (Jul 14, 2016)

The best course of action can't be determined by emotion or in a vacuum. You need to take a good hard look at where the passengers come from, and where they go to. Also, as a 3 day a week train, it isn't going to see much love. Perhaps if the CL were converted to single levels and coupled with through cars from the Penn at PGH as another alternate to the LSL traffic from the corridor would be less important to the Card. Of course CL being single level would make it easier to do Florida through if it could be proven economical also.


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## XHRTSP (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> A dome car would be awesome, they should try leasing some from VIA Rail


They should make and market the Cardinal as the 'Coast Starlight of the East'. Run it daily with all new Viewliner cars fresh off the assembly line, and dome cars or rear end observation cars custom made from those designs.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jul 14, 2016)

XHRTSP said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > A dome car would be awesome, they should try leasing some from VIA Rail
> ...


The new Viewliners should go to the more successful LD trains first (Florida trains and the LSL). Then if feasible bring back a BL type train or make the CL Viewliner if it helps bring the through cars off the CL back. Maybe if they have enough Viewliners to make the CL a Viewliner they can reroute the train through the Pennsylvanian route and then go south to DC. That will give a direct train to Pennsylvania and a faster direct train to Baltimore. Plus, you can ditch CSX between PGH and WAS.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 15, 2016)

Philly, please stop anti-Cardinalling everywhere you go. I see your reasoning, but please leave your anti-Cardinal arguments to other threads. Thank you.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 15, 2016)

Maybe put a lounge car & trans sleeper at the end (or front)?


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## west point (Jul 15, 2016)

Did Superliners come off Cardinal about the time the stimulus funds fixed all the sidelined single levels ( AMFLEET - 1s ) thus freeing up some SL for bilevel trains ? "IF" Cardinal goes daily maybe it can become a train much like Palmetto where coaches are added NYP <> WASH ?


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## jis (Jul 15, 2016)

west point said:


> Did Superliners come off Cardinal about the time the stimulus funds fixed all the sidelined single levels ( AMFLEET - 1s ) thus freeing up some SL for bilevel trains ? "IF" Cardinal goes daily maybe it can become a train much like Palmetto where coaches are added NYP <> WASH ?


No. It was single level much before that.


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## looshi (Jul 15, 2016)

The Superliners came off after the Autotrain wreck when Amtrak was short on cars.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 15, 2016)

maxbuskirk:

I love your new word, "Cardinalling"--it sounds like something out of an uppercrust British country house conversation:

"Do you have plans for the summer?" "Yes, I shall be sailing to the States on the _Queen Mary _and then Cardinalling in America." 

Philly,

Nobody loves the Florida trains or Pennsylvania trains more than I do (I think we are in pretty much the same area, and I'm sure I take the same PA trains you do), and I wish them all the good things they can possibly get from Amtrak. In addition, I always read your proposals with much interest (although I get a headache if I try to digest all the details at once  ). I have stayed out of the Cardinal discussion so far because I have not taken it and want to do so before expressing an opinion. However, I agree with maxbuskirk--please stop anti-Cardinalling--at least til I have a chance to take it and make up my mind (and finally get to see the New River Gorge)! (And if I'm waiting for the lounge in Chicago to get its act together so I can actually board the Cardinal instead of being put on Chicago commuter rail or something, it's going to be a while. :giggle: )


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 16, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't mind see through cars added to the Capitol Ltd. to go down to Florida or something.
> ...


 thirded


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## rrdude (Jul 17, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Philly, please stop anti-Cardinalling everywhere you go. I see your reasoning, but please leave your anti-Cardinal arguments to other threads. Thank you.


Please don't ask people to modify their own postings, or only post things YOU like.

This is not a place for PURELY Amtrak foamers and Ampologist, (though often it SEEMS like it)

If Amtrak's shortcomings are always just accepted, then at the end of the day, you won't have much left for the LD travel experience. Which is almost the point of where we are now. I used to be one of Amtrak's greatest evangelist.... Now, I'd like to think of myself as one of their biggest critics. Amtrak can do WAY more, without virtually a penny more for infrastructure or new equipment. (Though both are solely needed) It starts at the top wth MGMT, and having the right mind-set of what the customer-experience should be. NEC experience is diff than LD, which is diff than short-Hauls.... Want a perfect example? "Business Class" 100% ZERO consistently. The public wants to ride Amtrak so much, that Amtrak can provide crap, and the public still flocks to the trains. From a pure bean-counter standpoint, why spend money on a train that is usually full anyway....

If we accept crappy service, rude employees (far more polite, caring, competent employees are there, just WAY too many sucky ones still) and trains and operations that simply LOL at the times in the timetable, then, THAT IS WHAT YOU WILLGET.

I want better.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 17, 2016)

Outstanding post Jerry! 

If only we could get the Suits @ 60 Mass and their "Managers" in the field to read and act on this, but sadly, with Boardman on the way out the door, the rats aren't deserting the sinking ship!(just the good staff) 

The beancounters are in charge!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 17, 2016)

rrdude said:


> maxbuskirk said:
> 
> 
> > Philly, please stop anti-Cardinalling everywhere you go. I see your reasoning, but please leave your anti-Cardinal arguments to other threads. Thank you.
> ...


The problem with your logic is we may as well abandon topics and have a free for all format. There are topics for a reason. When you constantly hijack topics and take them off course, it has an enormous impact on people that actually try to search for information.

This is a topic about Sueperliners on the Cardinal. Technically, the question has been answered. The Broadway or Three Rivers have nothing to do with the topic and just adds to the confusion if someone is actually looking for information on the Broadway or Three Rivers

As for off topic rant about management, people like yourself often leave out that Amtrak is largely controlled by the people that finance it. Therefore, business class is going to have zero consistency when different states pay for different cars and want different services. Even something as simple as positioning the train in the consist can be subject to the whims of the states. Not too long ago, one state wanted to change the positioning of the cafe car. When Amtrak did it, another state who ultimately gets the set complained. So, now there was a big thing over what will happen to the set. When you're dealing with the LD or NEC, you're depending on what Congress appropriates, what Amtrak rations and what may work on a particular route. In other words, what may fly on the Cardinal may not pass muster on the Silver Meteor or Pennsylvanian. What may work on the Vermonter east of New Haven, may not fly west of New York, yet it is the same equipment.

Things always look cut and dry from the outside but when you deal with multiple entities with multiple interests, you have multiple scenarios that require multiple solutions.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 17, 2016)

^^ LIKE ^^


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## jis (Jul 17, 2016)

Thirdrail hit the nail on the head. Many of the realities of actually running system with multiple masters is probably well beyond the comprehension of armchair philosophers who have cut and dried solutions for hypothetical simple problems fantasizes about. And it sometimes shows.  But at least it does lead to some lively discussions from time to time, sometimes well out in the la la land too.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 18, 2016)

My fearless forecast is that Clinton will win in November, the Democrats will win a lot of seats in the Senate, and a few in the House. Sanders will be yammering about infrastructure investment and that's the easiest way for Clinton to try to satisfy him. Somehow a big order for equipment gets passed and signed.

That big order for equipment will be for hundreds of single-level cars. The Siemens' coaches for Brightline is what Congress will be looking at. And sorry, Nippon Sharyo's bi-levels will not yet be available as a good example by the time Congress is signing the checks.

Of course, Amtrak needs both more single-level cars and more bi-level equipment. But Congress will only have two years to do the thing before who knows what in the 2018 elections.

Then expect the log jam to break with a big replacement order for the Amfleets, for the Regionals, the Eastern LD trains, and corridors. With options to expand the fleet down the line.

Amtrak will have to "make do" with the bi-level LD trains -- a job in which it has accumulated expertise.

When the new cars arrive, start by putting some on the _Regionals_ where Congress can see them, put some on the _Cardinal_ to go daily, replace the Superliners on the _Capitol Limited_ and the _City of New Orleans_ + the _Gulfcoaster_, and transfer the displaced Superliner equipment to the Western LD trains that need it so badly. Like to take the _Sunset Ltd_ daily.

No place in that forecast for messing with the equipment on the _Cardinal_. Take it daily, double the ridership, and move on.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2016)

^^ I could drink to that ^^


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2016)

Excellent forecasting and plan Woody!

Do you have your resume in for Boardmans and Gretchen Carlson's jobs yet? LOL


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## CCC1007 (Jul 18, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Excellent forecasting and plan Woody!
> 
> Do you have your resume in for Boardmans and Gretchen Carlson's jobs yet? LOL


There can't be a verdict on his forecast until the election at the earliest, as the election is at very least "contested." I have been trying not to comment on political issues in public, as it would seem to me that both sides are getting into flame wars and shouting matches, and that is something that I just don't want to participate in. However, since it would seem that the primary leanings of this board are to the left, I will simply remind everyone that the only times that Amtrak cut any services without a financial necessity happened during democratic presidential administrations.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2016)

Maybe that is because the Republicans always left a mess for the Democrats to clean up, just like with the current account deficits?  Juuust kidding! but hey you started it after saying your were not going to.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2016)

President Reagan and Bush 43's Budget Requests for Amtrak Funding= $ 0.

Must have been real Financial Crisises happening?

Just saying.


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## railiner (Jul 18, 2016)

Personally, I would like to see both the Cardinal and the Capitol operate with Viewliner's. I would prefer to see the Superliner's used only on the transcontinental trains. The benefits of more flexibility in running thru cars at several locations have been mentioned. Besides the Cardinal running up the NEC, the Capitol could as well (as it did at one time as a B&O train), besides the possibility of running Florida cars on it.

I like the idea of a glass top Viewliner lounge car....sort of like the old SAL Sun Lounge sleepers.....although I'm not sure if the infrastructure of the Viewliner's top could easily receive that modification.


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## PVD (Jul 18, 2016)

AC packages in the roof have become pretty popular in current generation commuter and subway cars, because of their easier maintenance. Would not be surprised to see next-gen single level passenger cars go in that direction, that would pose issues for full length roof glass, but you could certainly bring the window size up, and come up to the roof on part of the car. Likelihood is any new lounge will be an adaptation of the basic design used for corridor, ld, bc, and cab.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 19, 2016)

Yes, a real Viewliner lounge with windows to the ceiling would be great. At the moment, it's just a normal car with a cafe counter and consequently less windows.


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## PVD (Jul 19, 2016)

One of the main attractions of train travel is the ability to look out thriugh a window and see something, even if it isn't always attractive scenery. Windows on Amfleet 1 cars are very small, Am 2 is better, but there is plenty of room for improvement. What comes next in single level cars has a strong possibility of not being a Viewliner derivative.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jul 19, 2016)

railiner said:


> Personally, I would like to see both the Cardinal and the Capitol operate with Viewliner's. I would prefer to see the Superliner's used only on the transcontinental trains. The benefits of more flexibility in running thru cars at several locations have been mentioned. Besides the Cardinal running up the NEC, the Capitol could as well (as it did at one time as a B&O train), besides the possibility of running Florida cars on it.


I'd like to see a reroute of the CL through Pennsylvania and then down the NEC to WAS. That would essentially be the Three Rivers 2016 up to PHL and would give WIL/BAL a much faster direct ride. You wouldn't have to get stuck with CSX anymore. Last time I was on the CL we were literally stuck outside of WAS after the lounge had been closed at the end of each trip. You'd probably add about 2-3 hours to the trip between PGH and WAS (if the CL left PGH at 5:30am instead of 7:30am it gets to PHL by about 1pm and then WAS between 3-4pm) but you wouldn't have to deal with freight traffic east of HAR and you'd add BAL and WIL. Then the departure out of WAS would be 1pm (maybe 2pm) instead of 4pm. You'd still be able to transfer in WAS to/from the SM and Crescent with the proposed WAS times (plus you can transfer out of PHL as well). Of course this route would require VL's. Maybe if PennDOT ever got working on HSR between HAR and PGH then the Pennsylvania route would be faster than the CSX line. Supposedly PA did get money from the 2009 stimulus. Was all of it spent on the Keystone portion? I thought there were at least plans to upgrade HAR-PGH.


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## west point (Jul 19, 2016)

According to another source HVAC units will not ever be put on the roof tops. The present V-2s all have them now underneath the cars. It takes special equipment to remove roof top units where as removing under car units is very simple taking less than an hour.. For the far flung LD routes special equipment would not be financially prudent. Most baggage handling stations have the needed fork lift or can get one quickly. Of course underneath units have removal problems at most high platform stations except a few such as Sacramento. As well overhead units have the problem of removal under CAT or short clearance stations such as NYP.

Commuter agencies have servicing facilities close to any end of the line.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 19, 2016)

Amtrak should build/acquire new observation/dome cars, and install prestige accommodations for extra price, running only CHI-WAS, because that would be an excellent sightseeing car, that was where I spent all but four waking hours on my last trip on the Via Canadian


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 19, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I would like to see both the Cardinal and the Capitol operate with Viewliner's. I would prefer to see the Superliner's used only on the transcontinental trains. The benefits of more flexibility in running thru cars at several locations have been mentioned. Besides the Cardinal running up the NEC, the Capitol could as well (as it did at one time as a B&O train), besides the possibility of running Florida cars on it.
> ...


I am all for a CHI-PGH-PHL-NYP train, but I don't think it makes sense to reroute the entire CL via PHL. Service would be completely cut to Connellsville, Cumberland, Martinsburg, Harpers Ferry, and Rockville. It would also not add stops to any currently unserved stations. Also, the majority of people on the CL are going to WAS, and this proposal would add hours to the route time to WAS. The shortest current route to BAL is WAS, so a direct train via PHL would save an hour at most against transferring to an Acela, NER or MARC. WIL is not that large of a city, and is a short Amtrak or SEPTA ride from PHL. I think the added ridership at WIL and BAL would not offset the lost stations, not to mention lost riders at WAS. If anything were to be routed HAR-PHL-WAS, it should be a Keystone. While it would have an indirect routing, there is not much competition presently in the that market. Driving takes about 2.5 hours and a train could probably make it in 4.


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## PVD (Jul 19, 2016)

I can't imagine an A/C unit being swapped anywhere other than at a maintenance point, the units come up with standard lifting equipment, unless you build an overhead crane into a car barn. and right now, nobody's changing an A/C enroute on any route. It is spec'd as a roof unit in the "Next Gen Single Level Car Committee Report Specs" Of course that is subject to change, but it's what is most currently supported.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 19, 2016)

Say a train via PHL to WAS would depart PGH at, say 7:00am and 42 to NYP would depart at 8:00am or something. Put cars on the first one and send it to WAS, stopping at HAR and PHL and others along the way. Pennsylvanian 42 wouldn't have cars from the CL and it'd get into NYP at 5:20pm. Now, only passengers to Trenton and Newark from west of PGH would have to transfer.


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## jis (Jul 19, 2016)

PVD said:


> I can't imagine an A/C unit being swapped anywhere other than at a maintenance point, the units come up with standard lifting equipment, unless you buil an overhead crane into a car barn. nobody's changing an A/C enroute on any route. It is spec'd as a roof unit in the "Next Gen Single Level Car Committee Report Specs" Of course that is subject to change, but it's what is most currently supported.


I agree. The concern about accessing AC units en route to fix them is mostly bogus. no one does that. They get fixed at the maintenance facilities where there is equipment to do such stuff.

The Acelas already have the units on the roof. Almost all new commuter equipment has them on the roof. Saying that Amtrak would be unable to handle such is completely bogus IMHO. Afterall the far flung networks all over the world are able to handle AC units on the roof. There is no exceptionality of inability or incompetence in America in this respect I think.


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## PVD (Jul 19, 2016)

The PRIAA Committee specs HVAC as 2 package units in the roof. It is the industry standard for most new cars passenger, subway, and commuter all over the world. That is not likely to change.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 19, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Yes, a real Viewliner lounge with windows to the ceiling would be great. At the moment, it's just a normal car with a cafe counter and consequently less windows.


At the moment, it's not even a Viewliner lounge, it's an Amfleet.


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## afigg (Jul 19, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'd like to see a reroute of the CL through Pennsylvania and then down the NEC to WAS. That would essentially be the Three Rivers 2016 up to PHL and would give WIL/BAL a much faster direct ride. You wouldn't have to get stuck with CSX anymore. Last time I was on the CL we were literally stuck outside of WAS after the lounge had been closed at the end of each trip. You'd probably add about 2-3 hours to the trip between PGH and WAS (if the CL left PGH at 5:30am instead of 7:30am it gets to PHL by about 1pm and then WAS between 3-4pm) but you wouldn't have to deal with freight traffic east of HAR and you'd add BAL and WIL. Then the departure out of WAS would be 1pm (maybe 2pm) instead of 4pm. You'd still be able to transfer in WAS to/from the SM and Crescent with the proposed WAS times (plus you can transfer out of PHL as well). Of course this route would require VL's. Maybe if PennDOT ever got working on HSR between HAR and PGH then the Pennsylvania route would be faster than the CSX line. Supposedly PA did get money from the 2009 stimulus. Was all of it spent on the Keystone portion? I thought there were at least plans to upgrade HAR-PGH.


You know that Philly is not the center of the universe and not all eastern trains need to run through Philly, right? Converting the CL to single level and running it through PHL would add roughly 3 hours to the trip and a lot of miles. Not a winner for CHI/CLE/PGH to WAS travelers. Believe it or not, there are also people who take the CL to and from Harpers Ferry, Martinsburg, Cumberland, Connellsville. Rockville as well, but Rockville is a DC Metro stop on the Red Line, so one can take the Metro to DC Union Station from there.

MARC operates on the WAS to Martinsburg segment and Maryland does have long range plans to add a 3rd track and other upgrades to the parts of the route for expanded and faster Brunswick line service. The CL will someday benefit from those improvements on that portion of its route.

PA did get funding from the 2009 stimulus and FY2010 grants for a series of improvement projects for the eastern Keystone corridor. The last 3 public grade crossings were separated and closed, some funding for engineering and EIS studies, and $40 million in FY2010 funds for construction of a revised State interlocking at Harrisburg.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 19, 2016)

Yes, neutrino trains going through Philly 

But TBH the Cardinal isn't the fastest train and there's no others to Chicago. So I think Philly should have another LD train, or at least cars on the Pennsylvanian or something. But without sacrificing the Cardinal (ie deleting it).


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## railiner (Jul 19, 2016)

Even if there were roof mounted A/C units, those are typically at either end of the car....there would still be plenty of room for windows in between them....the duct would go down the center, like the old dome cars....

The restrooms and cafe section could be located at either end, to preserve the 'sightseer' area.....


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## railiner (Jul 19, 2016)

afigg said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to see a reroute of the CL through Pennsylvania and then down the NEC to WAS. That would essentially be the Three Rivers 2016 up to PHL and would give WIL/BAL a much faster direct ride. You wouldn't have to get stuck with CSX anymore. Last time I was on the CL we were literally stuck outside of WAS after the lounge had been closed at the end of each trip. You'd probably add about 2-3 hours to the trip between PGH and WAS (if the CL left PGH at 5:30am instead of 7:30am it gets to PHL by about 1pm and then WAS between 3-4pm) but you wouldn't have to deal with freight traffic east of HAR and you'd add BAL and WIL. Then the departure out of WAS would be 1pm (maybe 2pm) instead of 4pm. You'd still be able to transfer in WAS to/from the SM and Crescent with the proposed WAS times (plus you can transfer out of PHL as well). Of course this route would require VL's. Maybe if PennDOT ever got working on HSR between HAR and PGH then the Pennsylvania route would be faster than the CSX line. Supposedly PA did get money from the 2009 stimulus. Was all of it spent on the Keystone portion? I thought there were at least plans to upgrade HAR-PGH.
> ...


Yeah...better watch out, or they'll run a section of the Pennsylvanian down the old Port Road to serve Baltimore and Washington, and run the New York section via the "New York and Pittsburgh Subway" to save time....

Then guess what? NO train thru Philly (30th Street)..... :lol:

Don't worry....you can always use North Philadelphia..........


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 20, 2016)

Actually most passenger cars for a long time have had air conditioning units over the bathrooms. At least on most cars I've worked on


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## jis (Jul 20, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> Actually most passenger cars for a long time have had air conditioning units over the bathrooms. At least on most cars I've worked on


Actually it surprised me when they put the A/C Units in the Viewliners under the floor. The roof AC units AFAIK are sealed units that are handled as a single unit for replacement. They do not consist of multiple pieces hanging at various places. I can understand Amfleets having them where they are because the sealed AC units were not quite available yet. But Iowa pacic has gone so far as to place sealed AC units on the roof of its domes too, at least the ex Santa-Fe ones running in Saratoga and North Creek. All the new MTA EMUs have ceiling units as do most other new cars.

I guess one problem they'd have in Viewliners is that at the non-vestibule end the ceiling height would be a foot and a half or so lower, causing an incursion into the space of the end Roomettes. That could be addressed by placing the shower and the staff room in that area.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 20, 2016)

Actually most passenger cars for a long time have had air conditioning units over the bathrooms. At least on most cars I've worked on


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## PVD (Jul 20, 2016)

the next gen specs call for hermetically sealed package units, one at each end. I too was surprised by the VL order.


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## railiner (Jul 20, 2016)

The 52 year old Budd R-32 NYC subway cars have the A/C units in the ceiling at each end of the car....


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 25, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> maxbuskirk said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, a real Viewliner lounge with windows to the ceiling would be great. At the moment, it's just a normal car with a cafe counter and consequently less windows.
> ...


 I love the double windows of the Viewliners, esp. for dining cars, they make the Superliner diners look like prisons, but vice versa with the SSL vs Amfleet Cafe.


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## PVD (Jul 25, 2016)

The R-32 weren't air/conditioned when they were built. When NYC added A/C retrofits to many series of cars, the used the ceilings at both ends, and also had piping to the undercarriage that went inside of poles in the car. The R-32 (in my opinion) is one of the best series of subway cars we have had. They did a similar retrofit on some other types of cars also. Even the later subway cars purchased with A/C had equipment mostly in the ceilings, until they went to the easily removable package units they use today.


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## chakk (Jul 25, 2016)

While domes can fit on the trains running through the Washington Union Station trackage -- tunnels to the south of the station and catenary to the north, I do recall from many, MANY years ago that the B&O required that the domes on their Columbian and Capitol Limited be emptied prior to entering the throat trackage around Union Station out of concern for a wire coming down onto the dome.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 25, 2016)

Shouldn't be too hard, that happens all the time for the SSL at the end of the Superliner routes.


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## PVD (Jul 25, 2016)

In leaf season a dome runs on the Adirondack between Albany and Montreal, It is removed at Albany under the premise that it wont clear into NYP, but I don't know if that is a hard rule, or a cautious approach. I'm sure someone here will know the clearances for NYP, and the associated tunnels to SSYD and/or the Hudson River to the NEC.


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## jis (Jul 25, 2016)

The vertical clearance through the tunnels is 14'8" max though most equipment are 14'6" tall. There are also some additional restrictions on what the shape of the roof must be at the car ends.


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## railiner (Jul 25, 2016)

The Ocean View is 15', 10" tall....


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## CCC1007 (Jul 25, 2016)

railiner said:


> The Ocean View is 15', 10" tall....


In other words, 14" too tall for NYP. Who wants to make the national news for being the dumb a** that sent ocean view to the scrapers by sending it too far south?


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## jis (Jul 25, 2016)

Well at least you will have a Cabriolet convertible model out of all that


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## railiner (Jul 26, 2016)

Yeah.....you mean like Megabus a few years ago?


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## Notelvis (Jul 27, 2016)

west point said:


> Did Superliners come off Cardinal about the time the stimulus funds fixed all the sidelined single levels ( AMFLEET - 1s ) thus freeing up some SL for bilevel trains ? "IF" Cardinal goes daily maybe it can become a train much like Palmetto where coaches are added NYP <> WASH ?


The Cardinal ran with Superliners as a Chicago-Washingon train until early 2002. That's when they had an Auto-Train derailment in Florida and a number of Superliner cars were destroyed......or at least banged up to the point of not being able to continue in service without expensive repairs. The Cardinal was converted to single-level equipment at that time and it's Superliners went into the Auto-Train pool to cover the equipment put out of service by the derailment.

I have heard it reported that the now single-level Cardinal was extended back to New York shortly after the single-level equipment returned and that the train experienced a ridership increase as a result. I'm not certain of this because with Superliners they typically ran two sleepers, a diner, a lounge, and three coaches..... a consist which could accomodate more passengers than the current consist can.

Here is an eastbound Cardinal with Superliner consist running several hours late near Maysville, KY in June 1998. You have a baggage car, transition sleeper, three coaches, and sightseer lounge visible here. There is a diner and two sleepers behind the lounge. Pretty big train for one engine but the F-40's were pretty husky and pretty reliable.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 30, 2016)

Notelvis said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Did Superliners come off Cardinal about the time the stimulus funds fixed all the sidelined single levels ( AMFLEET - 1s ) thus freeing up some SL for bilevel trains ? "IF" Cardinal goes daily maybe it can become a train much like Palmetto where coaches are added NYP <> WASH ?
> ...


 why no sleepers?


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 30, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> Notelvis said:
> 
> 
> > west point said:
> ...


There are sleeper, a transition in front and 2 in the back.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 30, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> Notelvis said:
> 
> 
> > west point said:
> ...


Here is an eastbound Cardinal with Superliner consist running several hours late near Maysville, KY in June 1998. You have a baggage car, *transition sleeper,* three coaches, and sightseer lounge visible here. T*here is a diner and two sleepers behind the lounge.*


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 3, 2016)

oh, ok


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 3, 2016)

oh, ok


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 3, 2016)

oh, ok


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 3, 2016)

oh, ok


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 3, 2016)

sorry, hit button too many times with slow internet


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