# What's VIA's plan for the Renaissance cars?



## Mailliw (May 14, 2021)

What is VIA's plan for the Renaissance cars? Supposedly they're going to run the Ocean with hybrid HEP/Renaissance consists, but that would require moving the transition car into the middle of the consist. And the Ocean's website only shows Renaissance equipment. If VIA does get rid of them is there any 2nd hand marked for them, or would they just be scrapped? Would they be allowed in the US?


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## jiml (May 14, 2021)

There is at least one Renaissance consist in corridor service between Ottawa and Quebec City. The coaches and VIA 1 car are very nice from the passenger perspective. If ridership recovers before the Siemens sets arrive, more will have to be deployed to get even close to the pre-Covid schedule, so we're talking at least a couple of years without even counting the Ocean. Additionally there are several sleepers in storage that have never been used. 

Being easily the newest cars in VIA's fleet they would make the much-desired impression in a new market and I certainly know where I'd send them. That said, this is all from a passenger/railfan perspective, without addressing VIA's maintenance and mechanical concerns with them. I do not believe they are approved for use in the US, if you were thinking that was an option. The sleepers would certainly fill a void in Amtrak's single-level schedule.


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## PVD (May 14, 2021)

There were serious accessibility issues with the fleet that caused quite a bit of grief (and expense) for VIA when they got sued. I thought the sleepers were gone, with most scrapped and a few others converted.


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## jiml (May 14, 2021)

PVD said:


> There were serious accessibility issues with the fleet that caused quite a bit of grief (and expense) for VIA when they got sued. I thought the sleepers were gone, with most scrapped and a few others converted.


They're alive and well (and accessible). Prior to the pandemic shutdown there were two consists on the Ocean - one was a hybrid mix of Budds and Renaissance, the other an all-Renaissance with a Park car bringing up the rear. The bad sentiments about the cars have overshadowed the fact that they are very modern in a European vibe. I have not slept in one (having a weakness for the Park car), but have showered in one. They have flaws but are very functional. The diner is my favorite - comfortable and nicely appointed.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

The Ren cars were rebuilt nearly a decade ago to provide handicap accessible accommodations in sleepers and coaches.

When the Ocean returns it will be a hybrid mix of both Budd and Ren equipment. Here's a sample consist I've seen posted:

2 F40s running back to back.
Ren Baggage (North American coupler on one end)
Ren Accessible Coach
Ren Accessible Sleeper
Ren Service/Lounge
Ren Diner
Ren Service/Lounge Car
Ren Transition (North American coupler on one end)
Budd Sleepers (up to 5)
Budd Skyline Dome***
Budd Coaches (up to 5)
Budd Baggage

***In the sample consist above a Skyline Dome is positioned between the Budd Sleepers and Budd Coaches......but this is still to be confirmed.

Personally I will always try to get a Ren Sleeper over a Budd Chateau anyday. Just a much quieter and smoother ride!

And it hasn't been a problem previously to run the transition car mid-train. At busy times VIA has run Chateau Sleepers along with the Park Car on the rear and about 3 years ago even an Skyline (that's a Ren Transition Car just ahead of the Skyline)


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## PVD (May 14, 2021)

I guess the info I'm seeing is wrong, it shows the sleepers scrapped. Good to hear that is not correct. My understanding was that accessibility was addressed, but not to US standards, and the Ren fleet is still not looked on favorably by the disability advocates. Again, it is entirely possible that is wrong.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

Renaissance Sleeper





Renaissance Diner......and there is no Kitchen. Meals are prepared 'on-shore' and reheated aboard in convection ovens in the adjacent service car.


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## PVD (May 14, 2021)

Thanks, the sleeper certainly doesn't look scrapped to me...I think I see what I misread... apparently there were 29 unfinished sleeper shell which were scrapped, but 27 finished cars were kept in the fleet....so the "scrapped" tag was not the whole lot.... that makes more sense....


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## Mailliw (May 14, 2021)

I asked about the Renaissance cars being usable the US because I was daydreaming about the Montreal Yrain Hotel proposal. Aside from the accessiblity concerns the Renaissance car layouts seemed idea for such a night train.


NS VIA Fan said:


> The Ren cars were rebuilt nearly a decade ago to provide handicap accessible accommodations in sleepers and coaches.
> 
> When the Ocean returns it will be a hybrid mix of both Budd and Ren equipment. Here's a sample consist I've seen posted:
> 
> ...


Thanks. The Skyline Dome seems pretty essential as a barrier, otherwise they'd They be too much coach traffic through the sleepers. The Ocean is on my bucket list and I kinda like the idea of traveling in Budd sleeper. It's the closest I can get to the Golden Age of Rail and I can see for myself what a Pullman berth is really like.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

PVD said:


> Thanks, the sleeper certainly doesn't look scrapped to me...I think I see what I misread... apparently there were 29 unfinished sleeper shell which were scrapped, but 27 finished cars were kept in the fleet....so the "scrapped" tag was not the whole lot.... that makes more sense....



Some of the unfinished Sleeper shells were used for the Ren Diners (the original British Rail configuration did not have diners) If you look at the Ren Diner in my photo above you will see some windows spacings are closer together than the others...and where the photos are on the wall between windows....this is where the toilet annex would have been located in a bedroom layout.

The Ren Baggage Cars and the Transition Cars are also former Sleeper shells. In the photo below the windows in the Baggage car are plated over with a steel panel.






The Transition Cars did keep a couple of windows from the old sleeper configuration....


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## Bob Dylan (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The Ren cars were rebuilt nearly a decade ago to provide handicap accessible accommodations in sleepers and coaches.
> 
> When the Ocean returns it will be a hybrid mix of both Budd and Ren equipment. Here's a sample consist I've seen posted:
> 
> ...


No Park Car on the Consist???


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> No Park Car on the Consist???



No....The Ocean can no longer be turned in Halifax and VIA has already decided it will be a bi-directional train with the F40s just running around the cars to the opposite end in Halifax. If a Park Car was used it would be running backwards in one direction right behind the locomotives. 

In the proposed consist I posted above a Skyline Dome was shown but it has not been confirmed yet that it will be included.


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## Willbridge (May 14, 2021)

Anything new or different will get a thorough ransacking by the FRA so it would be unlikely that they could get into the United States.


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## Cal (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> No....The Ocean can no longer be turned in Halifax and VIA has already decided it will be a bi-directional train with the F40s just running around the cars to the opposite end in Halifax. If a Park Car was used it would be running backwards in one direction right behind the locomotives.
> 
> In the proposed consist I posted above a Skyline Dome was shown but it has not been confirmed yet that it will be included.


I'm unfamiliar with VIA operations, why can they no longer turn it in Halifax?


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

Cal said:


> I'm unfamiliar with VIA operations, why can they no longer turn it in Halifax?



VIA turned the Ocean on a Loop Track at the Container Terminal near the station. Shipping and container traffic has increased so the area where the loop track was located is no longer available. There is also no Wye Track near Halifax where a train could be turned so the locomotives will now just run around to the opposite end of the train at the station.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2021)

Cal said:


> I'm unfamiliar with VIA operations, why can they no longer turn it in Halifax?




Here's the Ocean on the Loop Track in the Halifax Container Terminal.





It pulls forward......then backs down into the VIA Station.


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## Bob Dylan (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> No....The Ocean can no longer be turned in Halifax and VIA has already decided it will be a bi-directional train with the F40s just running around the cars to the opposite end in Halifax. If a Park Car was used it would be running backwards in one direction right behind the locomotives.
> 
> In the proposed consist I posted above a Skyline Dome was shown but it has not been confirmed yet that it will be included.


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## Bob Dylan (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Here's the Ocean on the Loop Track in the Halifax Container Terminal.
> 
> View attachment 22356
> View attachment 22357
> ...


Thanks for the update, the Park Car is my favorite VIA Car!


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## joelkfla (May 14, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Renaissance Sleeper
> 
> View attachment 22344
> View attachment 22345
> ...


What are the sleepers like for daytime use?


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> In the proposed consist I posted above a Skyline Dome was shown but it has not been confirmed yet that it will be included.


I haven't been in a Skyline in 20 years, but have a vague recollection that they lost the "flipover" seats in the dome during one of the refurbs which would make them somewhat "unidirectional" as well. Not sure the dome would have the same novelty running backwards for anyone but railfans. (I'd be happy to be wrong about this.)


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## OBS (May 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> I haven't been in a Skyline in 20 years, but have a vague recollection that they lost the "flipover" seats in the dome during one of the refurbs which would make them somewhat "unidirectional" as well. Not sure the dome would have the same novelty running backwards for anyone but railfans. (I'd be happy to be wrong about this.)


They definitely don't have the flip over seats, but not sure if they can be turned or not.


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

OBS said:


> They definitely don't have the flip over seats, but not sure if they can be turned or not.


I had thought they were once the flip style, but lost that ability when the airline style tables were added to the seatbacks. I'd doubt there's room for the traditional pivoting seat sets found in the full-width coaches. Anyway, I plan to find out in-person as soon as the Ocean resumes.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> What are the sleepers like for daytime use?



Here's a Renaissance Double Bedroom (Cabin for 2) set up for daytime.






The rooms all have an ensuite washroom and some also have a shower.




The Ren Ecomomy Class Coaches all have 2 and 1 seating. The same cars are used for Business Class with at-seat hot meals, beer and wine service.


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## railiner (May 15, 2021)

Sorry, but I'd take a full size Budd built car any day over those cars. They remind me of narrow-guage cars....


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> I had thought they were once the flip style, but lost that ability when the airline style tables were added to the seatbacks. I'd doubt there's room for the traditional pivoting seat sets found in the full-width coaches. Anyway, I plan to find out in-person as soon as the Ocean resumes.



The Skyline (and Park Car) Domes always had the same style seating they still have. The tray-tables were added to the backs during the HEP1 rebuilding.

CP Rail did modify a couple of Skylines back in the 60s-70s with flip-over seats for use on the Atlantic Limited across Maine. (The Atlantic was not turned in Saint John NB)

I imagine if a Skyline is included in the new Ocean arrangement it will have some type of a flip-over or reversible seat installed or seats grouped in fours like the front 8 seats in a Skyline now.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

On a Bi-directional Ocean.....the Budd Coaches will all have reversible seats. The Renaissance Diners are like any other with half facing forward and half backwards. The Lounge seats are benches and grouped with a table:




In a Ren Sleeper......half the rooms are forward facing and half face the rear.

In the Budd Sleepers the Double Bedrooms have movables arm chairs so you can position as you like. The seats in the open Sections are already half and half. Only the Roomettes (Cabin for 1) have the seats in one direction only. (at night when the bed is down.....you could sleep in whatever direction you want)


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> Sorry, but I'd take a full size Budd built car any day over those cars. They remind me of narrow-guage cars....



Same size/loading gauge as any cars running on the railways in Britain today. 

VIA had mechanical issues with the Rens but they are solid and very smooth riding. The rooms are quiet with a substantial partition between rooms unlike the rattling folding partitions between Budd Bedrooms. 

And VIA had to add insulation to the cars. They were built for a milder British climate which would be similar to Halifax in winter......but by the time you reached Rimouski or Riviere-du-Loup on a January or February day......it was cold!


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Same size/loading gauge as any cars running on the railways in Britain today.
> 
> VIA had mechanical issues with the Rens but they are solid and very smooth riding. The rooms are quiet with a substantial partition between rooms unlike the rattling folding partitions between Budd Bedrooms.
> 
> And VIA had to add insulation to the cars. They were built for a milder British climate which would be similar to Halifax in winter......but by the time you reached Rimouski or Riviere-du-Loup on a January or February day......it was cold!


Agree on all points, but my understanding was that weather-related problems were still the root cause of VIA's decision to scrap them. Something to do with freeze-thaw cycles and corrosion as a result, weakening the overall structure. IIRC in 2017 they had a third-party company do a study into whether they should consider refurbishing and keeping them, but that didn't turn out well and the die was cast.


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> Sorry, but I'd take a full size Budd built car any day over those cars. They remind me of narrow-guage cars....


They're actually really comfortable inside and, as @NS VIA Fan has suggested, very smooth-riding at high speed - something a Budd car is not. The track between Windsor and Toronto is not the smoothest in the country and the Renaissance coach/VIA 1 cars used to be regulars on that route before being moved to Quebec for maintenance reasons. Even on the Ocean beating parallel highway traffic between Quebec City and Montreal, breakfast in the Ren diner was fine while our Park car rocked all over the place.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> Agree on all points, but my understanding was that weather-related problems were still the root cause of VIA's decision to scrap them. Something to do with freeze-thaw cycles and corrosion as a result, weakening the overall structure. IIRC in 2017 they had a third-party company do a study into whether they should consider refurbishing and keeping them, but that didn't turn out well and the die was cast.



There was corrosion from salt encountered at grade crossings (probably something they wouldn't see in the UK).......also something about the integrity after the skin was opened to add insulation. And I remember reading the warranty would be void if the shell was repainted. Guess that's how we now have VIA Ren Green!


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## jis (May 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> They're actually really comfortable inside and, as @NS VIA Fan has suggested, very smooth-riding at high speed - something a Budd car is not. The track between Windsor and Toronto is not the smoothest in the country and the Renaissance coach/VIA 1 cars used to be regulars on that route before being moved to Quebec for maintenance reasons. Even on the Ocean beating parallel highway traffic between Quebec City and Montreal, breakfast in the Ren diner was fine while our Park car rocked all over the place.


I agree. In ride quality the Budd cars could not hold a candle to the Renn cars. I have ridden Renn consists both between Montreal and Quebec City and on the Ocean. Both rides as far as ride quality goes, were about the best you can get in North America. I do expect the Acela 21s to be as good or better.


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Guess that's how we now have VIA Ren Green!


I actually really like the green. It's the best looking VIA locomotive scheme ever.


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## jiml (May 15, 2021)

One has to wonder how these cars would have fared in a warmer, more hospitable climate.


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## Bob Dylan (May 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> One has to wonder how these cars would have fared in a warmer, more hospitable climate.
> View attachment 22394


Say in the US to replace the Horizions,Talgos and the Amfleets!


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## jis (May 15, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Say in the US to replace the Horizions,Talgos and the Amfleets!


The Renns would not pass muster of FRA buff strength requirements. They would require a special waiver which would be hard to come by in the US. So no, they would never be suitable as replacements for Amfleet. Even in Canada they need those buffer cars to be acceptable.


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## Seaboard92 (May 15, 2021)

I could always be in the market for a handful of Rens. I can probably get rock bottom prices for them because no one else will want them. Then if I scrap them I make a decent profit, if I keep them I have a crash pad I can open at YYZ, and YUL. Someone let me know when they come available.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 18, 2021)

Cal said:


> I'm unfamiliar with VIA operations, why can they no longer turn it in Halifax?





NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA turned the Ocean on a Loop Track at the Container Terminal near the station. Shipping and container traffic has increased so the area where the loop track was located is no longer available.




And here's one of the reasons VIA's Ocean lost the use of the Loop Track. Just so much lay-down area needed for the Containers offloaded from a ship the size of the 'Marco Polo' In Halifax this morning and heading for New York tonight. This thing is huge!...... 

_"For the second time in less than a year, a containership operated by CMA CGM will set size records as the largest boxship to call at ports along the Atlantic Seaboard. The 16,022 TEU CMA CGM Marco Polo will set a total of seven North American big ship records in 11 days"[i/]









CMA CGM Vessel Will Set Seven Records on Atlantic Seaboard


For the second time in less than a year, a containership operated by CMA CGM will set size records a...




www.maritime-executive.com




_


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