# Standardizing Business Class



## sttom (Feb 25, 2019)

So we all know business class on Amtrak isn't standardized across the system. So what would you add if a standard was set? Please keep it to corridor service business class, Business Class on long distance trains is its own can of worms (Budget Sleepers and all)

Amenities I would add are:


2+1 configuration

Legroom on par with long distance coach

Meal of some sort on trips over 2 hours.


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## Pere Flyer (Feb 25, 2019)

Yes to your ideas, and I would add:
• Faster and/or exclusive Wi-Fi
• At-seat meal/café service
• Priority boarding


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## daybeers (Feb 26, 2019)

Pere Flyer said:


> Yes to your ideas, and I would add:
> • Faster and/or exclusive Wi-Fi
> • At-seat meal/café service
> • Priority boarding


While I like these ideas, Amtrak needs to vastly improve it's Wi-FI and boarding situations before it markets them as better for BC passengers.

I like the 2x1 configuration requirement, but what kind of meal are we talking? What would you get on a Northeast Regional?


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## cpotisch (Feb 26, 2019)

daybeers said:


> but w﻿hat﻿ kind of meal are we talki﻿ng? What would you get on a Northeast Regional?


I’m thinking something along the lines of what they serve in BC on the Surfliners. Plenty of complimentary snacks and pastries and such, brought to your seat by an attendant. Not a full hot meal, but something above the standard coach offerings.


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## pennyk (Feb 26, 2019)

I assume you all know that "States" make many decisions regarding "State controlled" trains, not Amtrak, thus, there is plenty of inconsistency.


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## jis (Feb 26, 2019)

Well it is kinda hard to explain to some why Amtrak California is not really Amtrak. The fudging is intentional to some extent, but it works both ways.

Also I am not at all convinced that BC on a medium to long distance train must be exactly the same as BC on busy NEC, just like BC on a domestic flight is nothing like BC on an intercontinental flight, even when on occasions the same hard product is used.

What is important IMHO though is to use a distinct hard product to differentiate, unlike the case now. But that costs money.


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## cpotisch (Feb 26, 2019)

jis said:


> Also I﻿ am not at all convinced that BC on a medium to long distance train must be exactly the same as BC on busy NEC, just like BC on a domestic flight is nothing like BC on an intercontinental flight, even when on occasions the same hard product is used.﻿


This!

I was also trying communicate that point to [email protected][/USER] in the other thread...



cpotisch said:


> Yes, but not all trains with BC use long distance coaches, so it doesn’t really matter in those cases. All that really matters is how much of an upgrade BC is _over_the coach offerings on that train.





cpotisch said:


> What I’m saying is that all that really matters is how much of an upgrade Business Class is compared to whatever the coach offering ia on that particular train. So on a short distance route that only uses short distance _coaches_like the AM-Is or Horizons, it doesn’t really matter whether or not long distance coach on other routes has the same legroom.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 26, 2019)

jis said:


> Well it is kinda hard to explain to some why Amtrak California is not really Amtrak. The fudging is intentional to some extent, but it works both ways. Also I am not at all convinced that BC on a medium to long distance train must be exactly the same as BC on busy NEC, just like BC on a domestic flight is nothing like BC on an intercontinental flight, even when on occasions the same hard product is used. What is important IMHO though is to use a distinct hard product to differentiate, unlike the case now. But that costs money.


Perhaps using terms like "California Business" or whatever makes sense for a given region, but at least give people a consistent product business travelers can reasonably anticipate at booking.  The current "Casino Business" setup is a bit of a joke IMO.  If they're going to use the same hard product the least Amtrak could do is allow individual seat bookings with one seat blocked per row to allow single travelers to sit alone.  There are so many little improvements that could combine to make a big difference down the road.  If Amtrak had a coherent business class plan these sorts of product improvements could be hammered out at the next state/region contract negotiation.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

2 + 1 seating. 

Wi-Fi. 

Free soft drinks (limiting BC travelers to 1 bottle of water is one of the silliest things Amtrak has done IMHO.) 

Free snack(s) option. That can be a voucher or a snack box but something should be available. 

That's about it in my opinion.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

daybeers said:


> While I like these ideas, Amtrak needs to vastly improve it's Wi-FI and boarding situations before it markets them as better for BC passengers.
> 
> I like the 2x1 configuration requirement, but what kind of meal are we talking? What would you get on a Northeast Regional?


I was thinking the snack packs available on the Surfliner and maybe some sort of meal on longer trips. 



pennyk said:


> I assume you all know that "States" make many decisions regarding "State controlled" trains, not Amtrak, thus, there is plenty of inconsistency.


That doesn't mean Amtrak couldn't say "this is the minimum, you can have more but no less" 



cpotisch said:


> This!
> 
> I was also trying communicate that point to [email protected][/USER] in the other thread...


There still needs to be a worthwhile minimum. Re-branding coach with a can of soda doesn't mean much when we are talking one of Amtrak's premier routes, being the Northeast Regional. If a corridor on the west coast can do 2+1, with drinks and a $6 voucher, the NEC should have far better if we are basing this on region and usage. Your argument seems to come off as "the NEC deserves less cause....at least its not _regional _coach". 



jis said:


> Also I am not at all convinced that BC on a medium to long distance train must be exactly the same as BC on busy NEC, just like BC on a domestic flight is nothing like BC on an intercontinental flight, even when on occasions the same hard product is used.
> 
> What is important IMHO though is to use a distinct hard product to differentiate, unlike the case now. But that costs money.


My thought on long distance business is it should be some form of budget sleeper. The people that complain about how having one will hurt sleeper revenue are wrong, at least by Amtrak's estimation. If having something above coach is worthwhile to them, having a budget sleeper isn't a stretch and might be worth trying on longer routes.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

What are you calling a budget sleeper?  Slumbercoach? Pullman Sections? Lie-Flat airline style suites?


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## jis (Feb 26, 2019)

Actually lie-flat airline style seats minus the suite would be quite suitable. It could even be something on the less luxurious end of the spectrum like the pmUnited BC lie flats. Just a nice flat surface to sleep on without any bells and whistles.


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## cpotisch (Feb 26, 2019)

sttom said:


> T﻿he﻿ people that complain about how having one will hurt sleeper revenue are wrong, at least by Amtrak's estimatio﻿n


You keep on making the same claim that there are all these people here shutting your idea because they think it will hurt sleeper revenue. Can you point me to a few examples of this? Because it sort of seems like you’re just trying to support your suggestion by refuting a point people aren’t making.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> You keep on making the same claim that there are all these people here shutting your idea because they think it will hurt sleeper revenue. Can you point me to a few examples of this? Because it sort of seems like you’re just trying to support your suggestion by refuting a point people aren’t making.


Well business class being rolled out onto long distance trains. Why would it be safe, but once it lies flat holy Jesus think of the roomettes!? If you add a flat option to a line that either lacks sleepers like overnight Northeast Regionals or trains that already come close to filling up their sleepers regularly, a lower tier option wouldn't affect them much. If the point of having business class is to get coach passengers to upgrade, then a lie flat option would be an actual upgrade on a long distance train. At this point, I can spend $10 at a 7-11 and get the same experience on the Starlight's business class for coach fare. A lie flat option would get me to upgrade, and the user reviews of business that I have found are mixed.


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## cpotisch (Feb 26, 2019)

sttom said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > You keep on making the same claim that there are all these people here shutting your idea because they think it will hurt sleeper revenue. Can you point me to a few examples of this? Because it sort of seems like you’re just trying to support your suggestion by refuting a point people aren’t making.
> ...


I’m asking you, who here has argued otherwise? You just made the same claim _again_ that people are objecting to your idea “because it will take revenue from Roomettes”, but I still have yet to see any examples of that. So can you point me to any posts that make that claim, or are you just strawman-ing.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I’m asking you, who here has argued otherwise? You just made the same claim _again_ that people are objecting to your idea “because it will take revenue from Roomettes”, but I still have yet to see any examples of that. So can you point me to any posts that make that claim, or are you just strawman-ing.


Might have been on a different site, but people do think that a lie flat business option will kill the roomettes because Amtrak decided 35 years ago that they would be the budget option...in theory.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

I think you've lost me. So you want lie flat seats?  And how much more are you willing to pay for lie flat seats? I feel like the lie flat seats wouldn't be that much cheaper than a roomette cost-wise. 

I think reserved 2-1 seating with pillow and blanket and free soft drinks would be where to go.


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## cpotisch (Feb 26, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think you've lost me. So you want lie flat seats?  And how much more are you willing to pay for lie flat seats? I feel like the lie flat seats wouldn't be that much cheaper than a roomette cost-wise.
> 
> I think reserved 2-1 seating with pillow and blanket and free soft drinks would be where to go.


He wants lie flat seats of some kind for long distance Business Class, and 2x1 seating for short distance. So there would be two total Business Class products.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> He wants lie flat seats of some kind for long distance Business Class, and 2x1 seating for short distance. So there would be two total Business Class products.


I did initially say that business on long distance trains would need a pin in it. Mostly because I assume someone would think a lie flat business seat on a long distance train should be considered something else. For example an open section/slumber coach/single roomette/lie flat seat could be an option for a budget sleeper but historically weren't considered business class as we currently conceive of it. I was hoping to keep this discussion to regional trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

Well... what more was there to discuss about regional trains? ha. 

What has always bothered me the most is "Business Class" on the Acela which offers nothing more than standard coach.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

But Acela trains have their own equipment and coach is on Amfleets et all so its totally different


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## jis (Feb 26, 2019)

They should have called it Acela Coach or some such.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

jis said:


> They should have called it Acela Coach or some such.


Or Standard Class, or 2nd Class. Business Class anywhere else in the Amtrak system gives you at least a free bottle of water and free coffee. And most offer at least slightly more.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

Acela First Class is more what business class should be across the system, but minus a few things to keep Acela a premiere service. Like having a lower tier meal option rather than the full service with a menu on the Acela.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2019)

I disagree. Having Meal service and all drinks included would drive the price up higher than I would want to typically pay. I like paying a small premium to get 2x1 seating, typically quieter surroundings, and lounge access in chicago. 

Now of course in a perfect world I would have Iowa Pacific business class on every train. Now THOSE were the days. Only rode it twice... should have made a few more trips.


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## sttom (Feb 26, 2019)

Doesn't have to be every drink, maybe 1 per scheduled hour of run time and a meal if the trip is more than 2.5 hours, under that and you should get at least a snack pack.


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## wwchi (Feb 26, 2019)

2+1 configuration for sure and PLEASE let me pick a seat on line when I book the trip!


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## Acela150 (Feb 27, 2019)

While I don't know what I would like to see in a "Standardized BC". This was one of the things that I was really hoping that Richard Anderson would take a stance on and do something about. Oh well.


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

He still could, assuming Congress doesn't try to fire him for ringing their collective bell.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 27, 2019)

He hasn’t done much to improve the customer experience so far that’s for sure.  Closing stations, closing the legacy lounge in Chicago, ending the ppc’s, and ending the full service diners on 2 trains. And that’s so far.   Now must of that is related to long distance but I haven’t seen any improvements to Acela and regional trains either.


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## PVD (Feb 27, 2019)

The Am1 interior refresh is a .pretty significant plus in regional service. A similar project is set for Acela to refresh them until their already ordered replacements show up.


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## jis (Feb 27, 2019)

PVD said:


> The Am1 interior refresh is a .pretty significant plus in regional service. A similar project is set for Acela to refresh them until their already ordered replacements show up.


Yup. Also the improved Cafe offerings with Boar's Head etc. Everyone that I have talked to among my NJ/NY acquaintances that ride Amtrak pretty regularly on the Corridor seem to love that and feel Amtrak has improved service on the NEC in the last two years.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 27, 2019)

Oh that’s good.  I did forget about the interior refresh for the amfleet I’s.


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

My idea with the recent news is (or at least hope) is that he gets some sort of flexibility with existing funds to "make Amtrak more financially solvent" and finally gets Congress to pony up adequate funding to keep the long distance trains going. More corridor services would bring in more ridership and allowing them to use their existing billion to do that would be a big step along with Congress finally getting their bluff called. As much as they want to kill Amtrak, they never do. But that is for a different post.


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## daybeers (Feb 27, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh that’s good.  I did forget about the interior refresh for the amfleet I’s.



I would imagine this project was in planning far before Anderson was hired.


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

Business class from a different angle. Which one is business though?


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## cpotisch (Feb 27, 2019)

sttom said:


> Business class from a different angle. Which one is business though?View attachment 12681
> 
> 
> View attachment 12682


Top is Business Class, bottom is Coach. I figured that out even before I noticed the “Business Class” sign in the top one.


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## cpotisch (Feb 27, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh that’s good.  I did forget about the interior refresh for the amfleet I’s.


The AM-I refresh was arguably the best thing to happen to Amtrak’s onboard experience in a long time. I eagerly await the AM-II refresh.


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

My point is the difference is minimal. Even asking my roommate, his justification was to pick the white one cause white upholstery  = cleanliness = expensive


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## cpotisch (Feb 27, 2019)

sttom said:


> My point is the difference is minimal. Even asking my roommate, his justification was to pick the white one cause *white = clean = higher class. *


I would possibly rephrase that.  h34r:


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

Done


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## PVD (Feb 27, 2019)

An AM1 BC car has curtains and a bit more legroom. Other than on the NEC and LD, the states that pay the bills get to call most of the shots on service and amenity levels. Take NYS  sponsored trains for example:  BC is a 2+1 split car, but since NYS has elected not to staff cafes on NYP to/from Albany runs, no comp coffee or soft drinks, while trains going past Albany have it. Incosistent, yes, but not on AmtraK.


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## sttom (Feb 27, 2019)

Amtrak is still the contracted operator, they have some away in setting standard amenities on trains they run. The states could divorce from Amtrak, but I don't think the public would take too kindly to Amtrak getting canned for some other operating company because they tried to increase amenities.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 28, 2019)

Blaming the states is silly.  Amtrak simply says “in order to provide a consistent business class brand system wide, the following must be provided”  and then the states choose to pay for bc or they don’t.


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## Anderson (Feb 28, 2019)

Also, it isn't like Amtrak has gone out of their way to work with the states to adjust products.  There's a reason that several routes handle their own OBS...


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## Ryan (Feb 28, 2019)

sttom said:


> Re-branding coach with a can﻿ of soda doesn't mean much when we are talking one of Amtrak﻿'s premie﻿r r﻿outes, being the Northeast Regional.﻿


You get more than that in BC on the NE Regional.


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## daybeers (Feb 28, 2019)

Ryan said:


> You get more than that in BC on the NE Regional.


Not much more. Isn't it really just some curtains, a little bit of extra legroom, and a foot rest?


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

daybeers said:


> Not much more. Isn't it really just some curtains, a little bit of extra legroom, and a foot rest?


You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".


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## jis (Feb 28, 2019)

More importantly you get bonus AGR TQPs. That is what primarily causes me to spring for BC wherever I can.


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

jis said:


> More importantly you get bonus AGR TQPs. That is what primarily causes me to spring for BC wherever I can.


Yeah, how does that work with BC vs coach?


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## sttom (Feb 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".


You can pay extra for a better cancellation policy on most trains, the Business Class one only seems to be marginally better than the Flexible option on coach. So better, potentially, but if you aren't guaranteed to get 2+1 seating or a snack pack, you need to give someone paying for an upgrade something. 

Legroom of standard coach is 39 inches and long distance coach is around 50 inches. ~11 inches is something, but you don't even get a middle arm rest on federal equipment. Coach on California trains have a middle arm rest along with Business Class. 

The following is a picture of Business Class on the Cascade trains. Something like that is what I am talking about being the standard rather than the seats that a regular person might not be able to perceive a difference between from a picture.


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## jis (Feb 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Yeah, how does that work with BC vs coach?


I have no idea what you are asking.  In BC you get 25% additional TQP, in Coach you don't. Or are you seeking some deeper philosophy about it?


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## Ryan (Feb 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".


The knock of effect of the increased legroom is fewer people in the car, so the noise level is generally quieter. 

All small things, but not just the can of soda.


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

jis said:


> I have no idea what you are asking.  In BC you get 25% additional TQP, in Coach you don't. Or are you seeking some deeper philosophy about it?


So TQPs are directly tied to the amount of AGR points you’re earning? I thought it just had to do with how much you spent (correlation vs causation).


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## jis (Feb 28, 2019)

In Coach and Sleeper you get TQP equal to the base AGR points which is twice the dollar amount. In BC you get 25% extra TQP. You don't in Sleeper or Coach.


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

sttom said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".
> ...


Flexible Coach is usually much more expensive than Business Class. It's often more expensive than sleepers.


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## sttom (Feb 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Flexible Coach is usually much more expensive than Business Class. It's often more expensive than sleepers.


Sleepers? Checking for the Starlight EMY-LAX in two weekend shows no. Also not true for Sac-SLC. I'm sure it can happen, but often? I would want to see hard numbers. 

My point is that you can pay for the policy, that it isn't an exclusive thing. I am also not sure how much the cancellation policy matters compared to the seats and perks during the trip do. 

I will agree that paying for a Flexible is a waste of money in general. Amtrak's cancellation policies are...confusing even compared to Richard Anderson's last job. Delta's tickets are either considered refundable (not subject to cancellation fees) or non refundable which either has a fee or is a ticket that can't be changed. But seat classes and cancellation policies are a different can of worms.


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

sttom said:


> Sleepers? Checking for the Starlight EMY-LAX in two weekend shows no. Also not true for Sac-SLC. I'm sure it can happen, but often? I would want to see hard numbers.


I will concede that this is for two adults, but still:


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## sttom (Feb 28, 2019)

I looked at a one person trip. Either way, I don't think the cancellation policy is the operative selling point, nor does Business class have its own policy or rather coach being classified as "non refundable" like some airlines do.


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## daybeers (Feb 28, 2019)

Ryan said:


> The knock of effect of the increased legroom is fewer people in the car, so the noise level is generally quieter.
> 
> All small things, but not just the can of soda.


I've found the opposite with the noise level, at least on the NEC. Usually all the BC passengers are on the phone yapping about, well, business. I'm not a quiet car user, but I'd much rather listen to usual conversations instead of ones about stocks and real estate.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2019)

sttom said:


> I looked at a one person trip. Either way, I don't think the cancellation policy is the operative selling point, nor does Business class have its own policy or rather coach being classified as "non refundable" like some airlines do.


You can always buy a refundable ticket in Coach on any major airline. It just costs much more. Just like Amtrak's flexible costs much more than value. There is also the extra twist in airlines about the notion of an "upgradeable fare" which is usually slightly higher than the lowest full service non-refundable but reusable for a fee fare. Of course now there is also the lowest single carryon fits under the seat fare too, that has been discussed elsewhere in this forum.


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## sttom (Mar 1, 2019)

That still doesn't answer the question of does Business having the Flexible cancellation policy sell the upgrade to most people or are the potential for amenities? I would argue what are assumed to be amenities would be what sells most people. I'm sure some people would buy a business ticket for the sake of the refund policy, but is it a significant portion?


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## jis (Mar 1, 2019)

Currently with almost nonexistent amenities it is not clear why lots of people buy BC where the hard product difference is minimal, leaving aside the Acela ambiance thing of course.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 1, 2019)

On the nec I agree.  Everywhere else (Chicago, cascades, California) it’s a notable difference.


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## sttom (Mar 1, 2019)

Only the Surfliner has Business Class and the other two JPAs have been debating adding "something" someday. What is notably different with Pacific Business Class is that you do get a snack pack and drinks. You still have similar seats to Business on the NEC.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 1, 2019)

sttom said:


> Only the Surfliner has Business Class and the other two JPAs have been debating adding "something" someday. What is notably different with Pacific Business Class is that you do get a snack pack and drinks. You still have similar seats to Business on the NEC.


Including wine. 

But you do get more leg room and a better chance of finding a seat on the crowded Surfliners.  

As much as I think there needs to be a standard you need to realize that more leg room IS enough to call it business class. Look at the airlines charging extra for barely any extra leg room in “economy plus” or delta comfort.


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## sttom (Mar 2, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Including wine.
> 
> But you do get more leg room and a better chance of finding a seat on the crowded Surfliners.
> 
> As much as I think there needs to be a standard you need to realize that more leg room IS enough to call it business class. Look at the airlines charging extra for barely any extra leg room in “economy plus” or delta comfort.


Premium Economy isn't supposed to be Business Minus, Some of Amtrak's routes would qualify as Business Minus especially the Surfuliner. My issue from a consumer advocacy standpoint is is that Business Class on some major routes are more Coach+. I would agree from a shallow cash grab stand point that calling long distance coach on a regional train as "business" but rebranding what is essentially a coach product as "business" and all you get is a drink and a slightly more forgiving cancellation policy, I have an issue with that. Given the length that some trains go, Business class on Amtrak is deficient to airlines in most of its classes on comparable length trips.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

sttom said:


> Some of Amtrak's routes would qualify as Business Minus especially the Surfuliner.


I think many people here would dispute the claim that BC on the Surfliner counts as "Business Minus".


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## jis (Mar 2, 2019)

It depends on what one is used to. For example, on the Eurostar anything with the word business associated with it seems to include full meal service at your seat. Premier Economy (or equivalent) comes with some snacks, which is more like Surfliner Business. So it is just quibbling over words that really don;t have any universal meaning.


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## sttom (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I think many people here would dispute the claim that BC on the Surfliner counts as "Business Minus".


Without a consistent product, some scale needs to be used to compare the multiple business classes against each other. Which gets to the heart of the problem. You can get mad about 1.7 not equaling 1.9, but that doesn't make them the same.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

sttom said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > I think many people here would dispute the claim that BC on the Surfliner counts as "Business Minus".
> ...


What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.


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## sttom (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.


I'm only giving the Surfliner a minus for not being 2+1 like other trains in the Amtrak system have. I would consider most of the 2+2 "business" class cars Coach+


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

sttom said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.
> ...


2x1 seating is a VERY small part of what can distinguish the Business Class hard product, when you consider the fact that it only affects seat width. There are just so many other factors.



> Upgrade to Pacific Business Class
> 
> 
> Enjoy unique amenities when you upgrade such as a 25% point bonus for Amtrak Guest Rewards members; seating in a dedicated car with service attendant; additional leg room; a complimentary glass of wine, non-alcoholic beverages, and light snacks; access to the Amtrak Metropolitan Lounge in Los Angeles; priority boarding in San Diego; and a fully refundable ticket if canceled prior to departure.


In almost every respect other than the number of seats in a row, BC on the Surfliner is a significant bump up from coach. I just think you're getting a bit too focused on seat width, and should consider some of the other factors that can make or break Business Class.


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## sttom (Mar 2, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> 2x1 seating is a VERY small part of what can distinguish the Business Class hard product, when you consider the fact that it only affects seat width. There are just so many other factors.
> 
> In almost every respect other than the number of seats in a row, BC on the Surfliner is a significant bump up from coach. I just think you're getting a bit too focused on seat width, and should consider some of the other factors that can make or break Business Class.


I am well within my rights to consider 2+1 a defining factor of business class if just having more leg room is enough to clinch the definition for you. I would consider just 2+1 with no other amenities more or less coach+ as well. Well Coach++

Well for the sake of fun I will jot up a rating system Surfliner Business in a 2+1 would be a 5. Existing Pacific and Cascade business being a 4.  Midwest Business would be a 3. NEC and other 2+1's without amenities being a 2 and Starlight business would be a 1.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 2, 2019)

Why is cascades with 2+1 seating rated lower than Surfliner?


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why is cascades with 2+1 seating rated lower than Surfliner?


Because the soft product isn't as good.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 2, 2019)

How so? 

That snack box is ok but the cascades offers you a coupon where you can order anything you want


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## jis (Mar 2, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why is cascades with 2+1 seating rated lower than Surfliner?


I was wondering about the same thing. But then I said to myself, since the whole thing is pretty arbitrary anyway, it is what it is.


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## cpotisch (Mar 2, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How so?
> 
> That snack box is ok but the cascades offers you a coupon where you can order anything you want


It's a $3 voucher, right? The way I understand it, you get many more snacks and beverages (including one alcoholic) in BC on the Surfliner than you can from that voucher on the Cascades.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 2, 2019)

Ah I thought it was a little more than $3.  Still, the snack box relies on you actually wanting what’s in the box. 

Last time I rode the Surfliner it was implied that you only got 1 drink. I’m sure that varies based on attendants.


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## sttom (Mar 2, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why is cascades with 2+1 seating rated lower than Surfliner?


I'm saying present Surfliner and present Cascades are rated the same. Cascades have the 2+1, but Surfliner has better amenities.


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## AFS1970 (Mar 27, 2019)

I don't have much experience with BC, but would probably take it more depending on the travel time. I am taking my first Acella ride next month, taking NEC back as the Acella was sold out. 

As for the budget sleepers, I used BC for that once, but really because there were no sleeper cars on that train. My main reason for the upgrade was the better seats, I never even used the free drink, but I got on the train at 1am and woke up around 9am and was off by 11am. I thought of BC as a more comfortable coach than a budget sleeper but the reason was the same.


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## sttom (Mar 28, 2019)

Budget sleepers would more like these or the duplex versions (I wasn't able to find a clear picture of the duplex roomettes) 

The point of standardizing business across Amtrak would be for branding. Business class largely fills the same void on corridor trains no matter where they run.


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## seat38a (Apr 8, 2019)

*"Business Class: Business class is an increasingly popular service on the Pacific Surfliner. With a business class ticket, passengers receive a guaranteed seat; self-serve coffee, tea, and pastries in the morning; and at-seat snack and beverage service in the afternoon, as well as a dedicated business class attendant on most trains. Passengers also receive access to the Amtrak Metropolitan Lounge in Los Angeles, priority boarding at the Santa Fe Depot in San Diego, and bonus Amtrak Guest Rewards points. The LOSSAN Agency worked with Amtrak in late 2016 to initiate a pilot program to expand business class capacity in direct response to passenger demand. This was achieved by utilizing half of the Superliner longdistance car as a second business class car, separated by a curtain installed in the middle of the car. This created an increased capacity of approximately 30 business class seats, and allows for the full use of the Superliner car for business class service when passenger demand warrants. In 2017, the LOSSAN Agency also worked with Amtrak to upgrade the existing business class snack pack to a branded box with upgraded snack offerings, and also upgraded the breakfast offerings to offer orange juice, bottled water, and new pastries from a local bakery. The LOSSAN Agency also explored options for increasing refrigerator space in the business class car in order to offer expanded at-seat food and beverage service. Moving forward, the LOSSAN Agency will continue to work with Amtrak to enhance the amenities offered in business class in a cost effective manner, potentially including upgraded seat coverings and expanded at-seat food and beverage service. "*

Looks like LOSSAN is looking into expanding fridge space in the BC cars to offer "expanded" food and drink service. Regarding differentiation, Pacific Surfliner originally marketed their BC product as "Pacific Business Class" which it still says on the outside of the BC Cars but I don't think they use it in marketing anymore.


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## Willbridge (Apr 10, 2019)

sttom said:


> View attachment 13077
> 
> Budget sleepers would more like these or the duplex versions (I wasn't able to find a clear picture of the duplex roomettes)
> 
> The point of standardizing business across Amtrak would be for branding. Business class largely fills the same void on corridor trains no matter where they run.



I've written an article for general readers which adds more to this discussion. One nice touch on the Cascades that is not well known: priority boarding for the customs/immigration check in Van, BC. One not so nice touch: when a bus was substituted because the locomotive's computer wouldn't reboot, there was no effort to offer a partial refund.


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## Anderson (Apr 10, 2019)

@Willbridge: And that's when you march out a chargeback with your credit card...


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## Willbridge (Apr 10, 2019)

I was traveling on my credit card points and it was only Portland-Salem round-trip, so I didn't bother. A bigger difference, you're right.


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## Larry H. (May 2, 2019)

I ride Business Class between downstate Illinois a few times a year. For along time you got different cars, vastly varied service and condition and style of the cars. Last fall we rode it and the car was a redone version. More modernistic styling to the cafe part of the car, and reasonably comfortable seating which was sold out as it often is. They could use more than one car on that run in peak times for sure. It was almost sold out after leaving Carbondale and we had to sit at the rear where the seats don't recline. That could be fixed as well. What was infinitely better was the service. The young fellow who was working the car actually come though the seating area quite a few times offering free drinks and a snack. He was pleasant in the Cafe. When I talked with him a bit he told me that he had to go though new program about how to serve passengers well in business class. His take was either your service orientated toward the passengers or you needed to look elsewhere for a job. Now that being over six months ago I would guess that by now they may have forgotten the whole thing, but who knows. I think I will ride it in a month or so when the weather is more reliable and see how its working.


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## Eric S (May 3, 2019)

Midwest corridor trains (mostly) use a mix of Amfleet and Horizon equipment. My guess would be you rode in an Amfleet car, as those were recently refurbished. I seem to recall one of the recent plans put forth by Amtrak mentioned that Horizon cars would also be going through a similar overhaul in the near-ish future.


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