# Lockheed L-1049 Constellation and other propeller planes of mid-20th century



## west point (Nov 2, 2022)

How he connies were flown.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 9, 2022)

I remember my only flight in a Connie. Thanksgiving Eve 1967, I had taken the bus from Bethlehem PA (where I was a freshman at Lehigh University) to Newark NJ to fly the Eastern Air Shuttle home to Boston. Normally the shuttle used Lockheed Electra turbo props but that day due to the passenger load they pulled out a Connie. I remember before takeoff how they would start up each engine with lots of black smoke then after taxiing run up the engines to full power to check everything out before takeoff. My last flight in a 4 engine recip until my Air Force days when I got acquainted with C-118's and other recip transports still in use into the 1970's.


----------



## Palmland (Nov 9, 2022)

Great flashback, thanks. The last time I saw a constellation when we stopped at Philadelphia airport for a quick dinner (in the days when that was easy to do (1966) and one of these was sitting at the gate. Of course no security so you could wander around. My father had to travel a lot for business on Eastern and he disliked them more than trying to sleep on an overnight train!


----------



## Maglev (Nov 9, 2022)

I don't think I ever saw a "live" Connie. But this is in front of Seattle's Museum of Flight:


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 9, 2022)

Maglev said:


> I don't think I ever saw a "live" Connie. But this is in front of Seattle's Museum of Flight:
> 
> View attachment 30353


I only flew on a "Connie" one time.

It was a TWA Flight, and the Flight Engineer was my Uncle, now deceased, who later became a Captain flying 707s out of JFK!

In those days one could visit in the Cockpit, and I still remember sitting in the Jump Seat during my visit and observing the Crew operate the Complicated Systems that the Plane had.


----------



## PVD (Nov 9, 2022)

A Connie was brought through NYC for a "visit" on its way to its place outside of the Terminal 5 Hotel (old TWA Terminal) at JFK. (I really didn't look to see if it was a super Connie, but it wouldn't matter to too many folks.


----------



## Asher (Nov 9, 2022)

I worked graveyard shift cleaning planes for United Airlines at LAX back in the day of piston powered aircraft. Most of the time you tell the difference from a Douglas DC 6 or 7 from a TWA Constellation on final. It was too dark to see the plane but you could hear that Cyclone engine barking. (Backfiring) going over the threshold . Another long gone happening, TWA flight engeneers always walked out on the wing and sticked the fuel tanks before a flight.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 10, 2022)

As a kid growing up in Levittown New York (which at one time had three small General Aviation airports) the Connie was just about worshiped between my brother and me. Seen heading to Idlewild (prior to 1964 now JFK) we’d watch them on a hot summer day until they were out of site.

We compared the tri-rudder Connie with the twin tail B-25 Mitchell that our Dad flew in WW2. When my Dad was ten the idea of seeing Lindbergh’s plane takeoff - biking 20 miles, Bayside to Roosevelt Field - was nixed by his Father. For a couple decades Roosevelt Field was the epicenter of aircraft development. 25/30 years after the Spirit of Saint Lewis flight - the Connie become in use along with Boeing 707 - another biggie.! 

Airplane sitings were fun and you’d ask “Was it a Connie?” But the ultimate siting was on the only Day ever my brother and I accompanied my Dad to his workplace, yet on a Saturday in the early 60s. As we were walking downtown NYC my Dad stopped us in our tracks. “Listen” “Lookup” he said. The airplane engine noise became more and more pronounced. It then was DIRECTLY overhead - it was a B-25 flying out of the Brooklyn Navy Yard airport.

It would be last time for my Dad to see a B-25 Mitchell in military service. Although this one was converted to be a passenger plane from bomber. So, there the three of us, somewhat stunned, somewhat overjoyed headed to a surprise my Dad was keeping / lunch at the Horne & Hardart Automat.

BUT WAIT there’s more. Minutes after the siting and happily on the way to the Automat - a pigeon swoop over me and bombed the heck out of my head. My Dad and bro couldn’t stop laughing. Fortunately my Dad had a handkerchief in his suit pocket. Then later I clean up at the Automat ... and that’s the rest of the story!


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 10, 2022)

Another interesting aspect of the film was seeing the state of Air Traffic Control / Navaids in 1953. Looks like they were still using the low frequency ADF's with VOR's still in their infancy. No Air Route Traffic Control Center, the plane was more or less on its own until it contacted Approach Control. The use of the Precision Approach Radar (PAR) with course and glide slope monitoring, I think at least in commercial aviation that was phased out early on in favor of better ILS systems. In the USAF we were still doing PAR approaches, I witnessed some of them at our RAPCON when I was in Communications Maintenance at Cannon AFB, Clovis NM. I recall we still had a low frequency beacon as the T-33 trainers had an ADF as a backup to the TACAN system (military version of the VOR) but none of the other aircraft used ADF anymore and it was decommissioned when the T-33's were retired.

Thanks for posting the link to the film BTW.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 10, 2022)

In the late 1980s while working on an airborne surveillance system at Hanscom AFB, Mass. a workmate and I used to brag about our Dads’ military experience/ my Dad in the B-25/WW2 and hers with the C-121 super constellation of the Korean War.

During the time we worked with each other, sadly her Dad passed away and a C-121 Connie was ordered for a flyby. In a typical Airforce mix-up the Connie flew over the wrong cemetery!


----------



## jis (Nov 10, 2022)

IIRC I saw them in regular use on Eastern Shuttle back in the mid-'60s at Boston Logan.


----------



## PVD (Nov 10, 2022)

jis said:


> IIRC I saw them in regular use on Eastern Shuttle back in the mid-'60s at Boston Logan.


I believe you are correct. Electra was prime, Connie backups, after that DC-9 prime Electra backups, eventually 727 prime DC-9 backup, finally all 727. (Well there was a period when A-300s went to Logan but not Washington)


----------



## AFriendly (Nov 10, 2022)

I am too young, but my mom told me about flying in one of these from NYC to Puerto Rico. She told me that it was loud and those big 4 piston engines vibrated the cabin a lot.


----------



## Asher (Nov 11, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> As a kid growing up in Levittown New York (which at one time had three small General Aviation airports) the Connie was just about worshiped between my brother and me. Seen heading to Idlewild (prior to 1964 now JFK) we’d watch them on a hot summer day until they were out of site.
> 
> We compared the tri-rudder Connie with the twin tail B-25 Mitchell that our Dad flew in WW2. When my Dad was ten the idea of seeing Lindbergh’s plane takeoff - biking 20 miles, Bayside to Roosevelt Field - was nixed by his Father. For a couple decades Roosevelt Field was the epicenter of aircraft development. 25/30 years after the Spirit of Saint Lewis flight - the Connie become in use along with Boeing 707 - another biggie.!
> 
> ...


Absolutely, The B25 had a very distinct sound. Very loud. I watched 17 fly out of Orange County Airport where they had been refurbished for the movie Catch 22. and were heading for the shooting location in Guymas Mexico. My brother Mike.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 12, 2022)

Asher said:


> Absolutely, The B25 had a very distinct sound. Very loud. I watched 17 fly out of Orange County Airport where they had been refurbished for the movie Catch 22. and were heading for the shooting location in Guymas Mexico. My brother Mike.
> View attachment 30389


That would be a great throw down of what’s the loudest - B-25 or a Connie. : I lifted the B-25 engine sounds from Catch22 for a war film my Dad filmed in 8mm which I’n restoring now in 10K.

Here’s Rambling Robert Sr.- stateside WW2


----------



## west point (Nov 12, 2022)

Many questions and I'll supply some answers.

The shutle started spring 1961s with Connies. Back up aircraft for a short time were Martin 404s as they were surplus when EAL sold upper NY State lines to Mohawk airlines. Back ups then went to DC-7Bs. DC-7 were quickly retired because of high maintenance of its recips. DC-6s were kept for a while longer. The Connies were surplus as the 40 Electras took connie and DC-6 routes.

By 1965 Electras became first sections wih connies extra sections. 1966 had some B-727-100s s and DC-9s took over first sections with electra 2nd sections and connies essentially 3rd sections. That due to increasing traffic due to Vietnam. Vietnam also caused a shortage of JT8d-1 & -7s engines canceling some jet flights substitueted by electras. Also the first 17 B-727-100s had a geatly reduced zero fuel weight / gross take off weight limiting range which made them ideal for the shuttle. 

Later Airbus leased 4 A300-B2ks for #1..00 each with same weight problems as the early B-727s. They were great 1st sections LGA - BOS and a few to DCA but believe NImbys put a stop ( not sure )

More later about other items for this thread.


----------



## Asher (Nov 12, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> That would be a great throw down of what’s the loudest - B-25 or a Connie. : I lifted the B-25 engine sounds from Catch22 for a war film my Dad filmed in 8mm which I’n restoring now in 10K.
> 
> Here’s Rambling Robert Sr.- stateside WW2
> 
> View attachment 30402


Nice photo


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 12, 2022)

Asher said:


> I worked graveyard shift cleaning planes for United Airlines at LAX back in the day of piston powered aircraft. Most of the time you tell the difference from a Douglas DC 6 or 7 from a TWA Constellation on final. It was too dark to see the plane but you could hear that Cyclone engine barking. (Backfiring) going over the threshold . Another long gone happening, TWA flight engeneers always walked out on the wing and sticked the fuel tanks before a flight.


Interesting…. Both the Constellation and the DC 7 had R-3350 Duplex Cyclones. The DC 6 had the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp. The R-3350 was such an interesting power plant with its turbo-compound setup of turbines driven by exhaust gas geared to the crankshaft to delivery more efficiency and power.


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 12, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Another interesting aspect of the film was seeing the state of Air Traffic Control / Navaids in 1953. Looks like they were still using the low frequency ADF's with VOR's still in their infancy. No Air Route Traffic Control Center, the plane was more or less on its own until it contacted Approach Control. The use of the Precision Approach Radar (PAR) with course and glide slope monitoring, I think at least in commercial aviation that was phased out early on in favor of better ILS systems. In the USAF we were still doing PAR approaches, I witnessed some of them at our RAPCON when I was in Communications Maintenance at Cannon AFB, Clovis NM. I recall we still had a low frequency beacon as the T-33 trainers had an ADF as a backup to the TACAN system (military version of the VOR) but none of the other aircraft used ADF anymore and it was decommissioned when the T-33's were retired.
> 
> Thanks for posting the link to the film BTW.


There are still a few places a civilian can land on a PAR approach. KSTJ St Joseph MO, KCYS Cheyenne WY, KFHU Sierra Vista AZ, KPSM Portsmouth NH, KTOI Troy AL, and KVUJ Albemarle, NC (it may not be a complete list). I have looked at trying the one into St Jo as a training exercise but it is continually NOTAMmed inop. There does seem to be at least one ASR approach in many states (radar course guidance, no glide slope just step down altitudes, higher minimums).

There are still some ADF out there but so many are gone. Even the VOR is being scaled back at this time to what the FAA calls the Minimum Operational Network. GPS uber alles.


----------



## Charles785 (Nov 12, 2022)

I'm sure my first commercial airline flight, in 1963, was aboard a Constellation - anyway it was a TWA flight from Wichita to Denver and I don't remember any discomfort from the coach seats. Would anyone know how the dimensions of those seats - and the spacing between rows - would compare to today's so-called economy seats.

Of course in those days flying was still a premiere travel experience. No TSA, obviously. And onboard the service-oriented attractive young stewardesses looked like they had just stepped out of the centerfold of a fashion magazine - dressed to the nines - with, I really think I remember this - hats and white gloves.

And I know we were served a full meal on that domestic flight, and I'm remembering when they brought dessert they also included a complimentary pack of four cigarettes.

But I want to say the seating was much roomier then, and I'm even curious if the seating dimensions in coach back then could be somewhat similar to the dimensions of the seats in first class these days.


----------



## west point (Nov 13, 2022)

All Connie operators had to deal with fuel guages not very reliable. Several factors. Water in fuel and condensation always a problem. Tanks had to have tank sumps drained until no water found usually first trip of day's FE. A barrel type fuel container rolled around for emptying sumps. If fuel added after sumpng wait some time to sump again. FE had to keep track of how much fuel used from each tank duing the day usually preventing more dip stick time.. If operating tank to engine was fairly simple otherwise ---

Do not remember how FE got onto each wing but using dip stick in winter was also. More than one EAL FE lost footing slidding off wing which was fairly high off ground. Usually a maintenance man would follow FE to prevent any broken bones but it did happen. FE had to get stick reading, aircraft roll and pitch angles, and know fuel temp to calculate actual volume. Also ttrying to determine if fuel was a whole 130 / 145 Octane rating.

EAL disabled the turbo chargers whenever a trip did not need them. Shuttle was one. The turbochargers failed in a way that the engine would swallow all the parts. That is why the DC-7s were retired. Delta also retired DC-7s and kept DC-6s as freighters until they got C-130s (forgert civilian designation ) to carrry freight.

After retiring Connies from passenger service EAL kept 2 many years as freighters to carry jet engines and CV-440 recips where needed and back to MIA to engine overhaul facility. Connnies finally retired when EAL received B-727 QC pass / freighters.

Next up Navigation.


----------



## Asher (Nov 13, 2022)

UserNameRequired said:


> Interesting…. Both the Constellation and the DC 7 had R-3350 Duplex Cyclones. The DC 6 had the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp. The R-3350 was such an interesting power plant with its turbo-compound setup of turbines driven by exhaust gas geared to the crankshaft to delivery more efficiency and power.


Yeah, my memories are just from trying to guess whether it was a United landing or one of the other airlines landing. If it was barking just before touching down I thought TWA as they flew Lockheed.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 13, 2022)

Asher said:


> Nice photo


 Oh thanks, my Mom took it. (Columbia SC)

Yours too! - Did your bro Mike fly for the Movie?


----------



## railiner (Nov 13, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> - it was a B-25 flying out of the Brooklyn Navy Yard airport.


Wait...Brooklyn Navy Yard airport?? Never heard of that...could you mean Floyd Bennett Field, NAS?


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 14, 2022)

Yes it was definitely Floyd Bennett Field which the Navy used until 1970.


----------



## Asher (Nov 14, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Oh thanks, my Mom took it. (Columbia SC)
> 
> Yours too! - Did your bro Mike fly for the Movie?


Yeah, he was a co pilot. He flew with everybody, mostly Frank Tallman. Somehow he got his face on screen one time giving the thumbs up in a take off scene.


----------



## Asher (Nov 14, 2022)

west point said:


> All Connie operators had to deal with fuel guages not very reliable. Several factors. Water in fuel and condensation always a problem. Tanks had to have tank sumps drained until no water found usually first trip of day's FE. A barrel type fuel container rolled around for emptying sumps. If fuel added after sumpng wait some time to sump again. FE had to keep track of how much fuel used from each tank duing the day usually preventing more dip stick time.. If operating tank to engine was fairly simple otherwise ---
> 
> Do not remember how FE got onto each wing but using dip stick in winter was also. More than one EAL FE lost footing slidding off wing which was fairly high off ground. Usually a maintenance man would follow FE to prevent any broken bones but it did happen. FE had to get stick reading, aircraft roll and pitch angles, and know fuel temp to calculate actual volume. Also ttrying to determine if fuel was a whole 130 / 145 Octane rating.
> 
> ...


I also forget how the FE got on the wing. Maybe used the same ladder as the fuelers. Another treacherous occupation especially at night.

The B 29 bomber also had that same engine. Very unreliable. One of the main reasons for having the airfield on Ewo Jima during WW2, it was a safety net for B 29s having issues after bombing runs on Japan.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 14, 2022)

west point said:


> EAL disabled the turbo chargers whenever a trip did not need them. Shuttle was one. The turbochargers failed in a way that the engine would swallow all the parts. That is why the DC-7s were retired.


Did not know that about the turbochargers. In 1961 I rode a Pan Am DC-7C Heathrow to Boston Logan, my first ever flight by myself at 11 years old as my Dad had to return early to go back to work. We stopped at Shannon Ireland to refuel before the hop across the Atlantic. The crew took me under their wing as we went into the airport to get a snack. Upon returning to the plane they let me sit in the cockpit until it was time to leave. I recall there was a flight engineer and there may have also been a navigator, or at least a position for one. Definitely a different era.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 14, 2022)

Asher said:


> Yeah, he was a co pilot. He flew with everybody, mostly Frank Tallman. Somehow he got his face on screen one time giving the thumbs up in a take off scene.


Sooooo cool! Is he wearing a red leather cap? ... also chair scene? haha. 

I promised my Mom I’d boost the resolution of my Dad’s film (soon) - China Burma India USAAF 1944-45. On YouTube you can search “Fenny B-25 1944” for a low resolution viewing. It had been gathering dust on YT for 15 years. My Dad was happy with my intro but I was not happy with chopping up and shortening HIS video content for a AF reunion after he died. Never used it.

I hadn’t realized Connie’s were flying in the early 40s. I thought mid 50s.


----------



## PVD (Nov 14, 2022)

Connies first flew 43 USAAF 45 TWA


----------



## Asher (Nov 15, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Sooooo cool! Is he wearing a red leather cap? ... also chair scene? haha.
> 
> I promised my Mom I’d boost the resolution of my Dad’s film (soon) - China Burma India USAAF 1944-45. On YouTube you can search “Fenny B-25 1944” for a low resolution viewing. It had been gathering dust on YT for 15 years. My Dad was happy with my intro but I was not happy with chopping up and shortening HIS video content for a AF reunion after he died. Never used it.
> 
> I hadn’t realized Connie’s were flying in the early 40s. I thought mid 50s.


For sure I’ll check out Fanny B -25. Thanks. 
no, he wasn’t the guy in the leather cap, I think that guy was an actor.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 15, 2022)

Asher said:


> For sure I’ll check out Fanny B -25. Thanks.
> no, he wasn’t the guy in the leather cap, I think that guy was an actor.



Of course. Thanks
While my Dad was in Fenny (northeast India) - Steven Spielberg’s dad, Arnold, was in NW India (a B-25 (radio operator) and lived to 103
==================


First flight C-121, January 1943 (1min)


----------



## jis (Nov 15, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Of course. Thanks
> While my Dad was in Fenny (northeast India) - Steven Spielberg’s dad, Arnold, was in NW India (a B-25 (radio operator) and lived to 103


Is Fenny the same as Feni near Chittagong in Bangladesh today?


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 15, 2022)

Yes, Fenny India, as a result of the 1973 war, is now Feni Bangladesh near Chittagong.


----------



## jis (Nov 15, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Yes, Fenny India, as a result of the 1973 war, is now Feni Bangladesh near Chittagong.


Well before the 1971 war it was in East Pakistan. It was in India before 15th August 1947.


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 15, 2022)

jis said:


> Well before the 1971 war it was in East Pakistan. It was in India before 15th August 1947.


Thank you - 1971. In 1973 I have down as when the former USAAF Fenny airfield was bombed and rendered unusable. Much of it - made of bricks - is still in place today.


----------



## west point (Nov 15, 2022)

PVD said:


> Connies first flew 43 USAAF 45 TWA


That was the -049 a very short airplane that required the tri tail to provide more yaw stabilization. The tri tail was so popular that it was kept thru all versions.
more later


----------



## railiner (Nov 15, 2022)

west point said:


> That was the -049 a very short airplane that required the tri tail to provide more yaw stabilization. The tri tail was so popular that it was kept thru all versions.
> more later


There were several other airliner's that also had the "tri tail"...including the earliest Douglas DC-4(E), and most notably, the Boeing 314 "Clipper's".


----------



## jis (Nov 15, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Thank you - 1971. In 1973 I have down as when the former USAAF Fenny airfield was bombed and rendered unusable. Much of it - made of bricks - is still in place today.


The story of USAAF airfields in Bengal during the Second World War is a subject that can be discussed at length, but not in this thread. I am born and brought up in my very young days in Bengal and have studied them in the area around Kolkata in India. You can see many of the remnants in Google Earth if you know where to look. There are dozens of them around, most abandoned. What is Kolkata International Airport today, used to be the HQ of USAAF deployed in India then known as Dum Dum Air Base. General Curtis Le May visited there. But I digress from this thread.

But just as a teaser, here is what remains of the old Feni Airport:









23°02'06.0"N 91°23'37.0"E · Majlishpur, Bangladesh


Majlishpur, Bangladesh




www.google.com


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 16, 2022)

Nice detail! In 2007 for a reunion for my Dad’s Fenny unit I found a Google Earth image much less detail.

Here’s another video - the AF1 Connie built for President Eisenhower. (3 min)



As Air Force One the Constellation received much prestige associated with President Eisenhower. It certainly had the range and safety.


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 16, 2022)

railiner said:


> There were several other airliner's that also had the "tri tail"...including the earliest Douglas DC-4(E), and most notably, the Boeing 314 "Clipper's".


The Capelis XC-12 had quite an interesting biplane tri tail too. As seen in Flying Tigers and Five Came Back.


----------



## Asher (Nov 19, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> Nice detail! In 2007 for a reunion for my Dad’s Fenny unit I found a Google Earth image much less detail.
> 
> Here’s another video - the AF1 Connie built for President Eisenhower. (3 min)
> 
> ...



I’ve visited the museum at Dayton where one of the three Eisenhower Constellations is part of the array of presidential plane’s. 

Another multi tail aircraft, this is a 1947 Bellanca Cruisair. Landing at Hawthorne with a 747 in the background on finale for LAX.


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 19, 2022)

Nice Ballanca! 
I have seen the two Connies at Pima Air and Space Museum next to Davis Monthan. One of them was also one of Eisenhower‘s.








Lockheed L-049 - Pima Air & Space


Lockheed C-69 (L-049) Constellation The Lockheed Constellation is widely regarded as one of the best of the post-World War II piston-engine airliners. Originally designed in 1939 for Trans World Airline the first “Connies” flew in 1942. The first aircraft were impressed by the Army Air Forces...




pimaair.org












Lockheed VC-121A - Pima Air & Space
 

Lockheed VC-121A Constellation After the commercial success of the L-049 Constellation, Lockheed produced a slightly improved version designated L-749. This aircraft attracted the attention of the U.S. Air Force which bought ten of them for long-range VIP transports and designated them VC-121A...




pimaair.org


----------



## Asher (Nov 22, 2022)

This is a link to a Constellation that had severe engine issues on a overseas flight.
*








20-Foot Waves. All Engines on Fire. 900 Miles From Land—The Miraculous Ocean Landing of Flying Tiger 923 — Popular Mechanics


How Flying Tiger 923 and its “miracle pilot” made an impossible ocean landing.




apple.news




*


----------



## Rambling Robert (Nov 22, 2022)

Asher said:


> This is a link to a Constellation that had severe engine issues on a overseas flight.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


What a great story for starting the Thanksgiving holiday! So many peoples stories on one website. My brother called the Connie the best tri-motor ever made.

I found this website helpful since I no longer have the  News App.









Flying Tiger 923


Commemorating the crash of Flying Tiger Lines Flight 923 on September 23, 1962.




flyingtiger923.com


----------



## Mike G (Nov 22, 2022)

Post WW II Lockheed made a poor business decision not to move towards commercial jet transports. They were pleased with the Connie. This decision took them out of the large commercial aircraft market. Boeing and Douglas recognize that this was the future of aviation. It should be noted the only jet transports Lockheed built were the C-141, C-5 and The L-1011. In 1959 Department of AF ask for design and bids for 284 aircraft that became the C-141. From a business perspective it was a money loser to Boeing and Douglas. Boeing had a huge backorder of B-52s, KC-135s, B-707s and B-727s, and the B-737 on paper. Douglass had the same back order issues with their D-8 and DC-9 family of jets. Their design teams were busy with B-747 and DC-10. 300 aircraft was the magic number ( and still is ) to break even financially. So without dragging this out Lockheed won the contract by default. I few the C-141A & B for 10,054 hours as a FE, it was a fine fine aircraft. C-5 wasn’t and still isn’t any better than 62% reliable. During the C-5 design and development funding was funneled into the L-1011 design. Again poor business decision by Lockheed, choosing the Rolls-Royce engine when Pratt and Whitney and GE engines were already flight certified. RR was in bankruptcy during the time that delivery was needed and there was a two-year delay on receiving the engines which they lost many orders to the DC-10. With only 250 made and the C-5s total of 131 A models and a 2nd run of 80 some B models all 3 aircraft were below the break even magic numbers. Martin Marietta basic took them over, and other than a few C-130Js a year they are a fighter company in the Aviation division now. Another note. Lockheed notoriously has poorly design flaws in their wing boxes, require major cost in replacement.


----------



## Mike G (Nov 22, 2022)

The Connie used a R-3350 compound engine. It was the final production model. To straighten a few things out. It had a supercharger internally below the throttle body that was operated by engine oil pressure to force the intake air to the cylinders. It was 2 speed controlled by the FE. The throttle body had the appearance of a carburetor, but all that it did was regulate the airflow to the internal supercharger. It was fuel injected. So what you had was 18 cylinders with 2 spark plugs per cylinder. 2 magnetos one on the left fired the front s/plugs and like wise on the right back s/plugs. There were 2 fuel injector pumps each servicing 9 cylinders. Now …… the magnetos and injection pumps required timing to a master cylinder at a precise degree before top dead center on compression stroke, not easy to do !!! It also had 3 power recovery turbines aka PRT that 6 cylinders exhaust manifolds discharged to and the turbine turned a shaft connected to the crankshaft by a oil pressure coupler to assist. The dirtiest, nasties thing you could imagine to change.




The back fire heard wasn’t back fire, alway misidentified. It was AFTER FiRE, unburned fuel air mixture from the cylinders, giving a slight pop and a orange flame appearance. BACK FIRE is the fuel air mixture burning backwards through the induction system, causing a violent internal explosion normally caused by intake valve not closing completely. 

Engine conditioning.

This was from lessons learned with the B-29s. Every X number of hours this was accomplished. Each cylinder was compression checked, the valve timing was checked using the master cylinder, mag timing and fuel injection pumps timed. 

Extremely high maintenance engines. 

I spent my 1st 5 years as a Recip Engine mechanic in the Philippines working MAC Enroute. West Virginia and Wyoming AirGuard flew Connies, R4360s on the C-124 was so much easier period !! 

Oh, yes COOPER RUN OUT. The R-3350 was notoriously over heading. Between the bottom of the spark plug and the cylinder spark plug port, what is the copper ring, with the appearance of a washer, but actually, it was a gasket. The cylinder would get so damn hot copper would melt migrate down through the threads and caused cylinder failure in turn engine failure. 

Compared to the R-4360, the R-3350 was a giant pain in the a** !


----------



## railiner (Nov 22, 2022)

Mike G said:


> Post WW II Lockheed made a poor business decision not to move towards commercial jet transports. They were pleased with the Connie. This decision took them out of the large commercial aircraft market. Boeing and Douglas recognize that this was the future of aviation. It should be noted the only jet transports Lockheed built were the C-141, C-5 and The L-1011. In 1959 Department of AF ask for design and bids for 284 aircraft that became the C-141. From a business perspective it was a money loser to Boeing and Douglas. Boeing had a huge backorder of B-52s, KC-135s, B-707s and B-727s, and the B-737 on paper. Douglass had the same back order issues with their D-8 and DC-9 family of jets. Their design teams were busy with B-747 and DC-10. 300 aircraft was the magic number ( and still is ) to break even financially. So without dragging this out Lockheed won the contract by default. I few the C-141A & B for 10,054 hours as a FE, it was a fine fine aircraft. C-5 wasn’t and still isn’t any better than 62% reliable. During the C-5 design and development funding was funneled into the L-1011 design. Again poor business decision by Lockheed, choosing the Rolls-Royce engine when Pratt and Whitney and GE engines were already flight certified. RR was in bankruptcy during the time that delivery was needed and there was a two-year delay on receiving the engines which they lost many orders to the DC-10. With only 250 made and the C-5s total of 131 A models and a 2nd run of 80 some B models all 3 aircraft were below the break even magic numbers. Martin Marietta basic took them over, and other than a few C-130Js a year they are a fighter company in the Aviation division now. Another note. Lockheed notoriously has poorly design flaws in their wing boxes, require major cost in replacement.





Mike G said:


> The Connie used a R-3350 compound engine. It was the final production model. To straighten a few things out. It had a supercharger internally below the throttle body that was operated by engine oil pressure to force the intake air to the cylinders. It was 2 speed controlled by the FE. The throttle body had the appearance of a carburetor, but all that it did was regulate the airflow to the internal supercharger. It was fuel injected. So what you had was 18 cylinders with 2 spark plugs per cylinder. 2 magnetos one on the left fired the front s/plugs and like wise on the right back s/plugs. There were 2 fuel injector pumps each servicing 9 cylinders. Now …… the magnetos and injection pumps required timing to a master cylinder at a precise degree before top dead center on compression stroke, not easy to do !!! It also had 3 power recovery turbines aka PRT that 6 cylinders exhaust manifolds discharged to and the turbine turned a shaft connected to the crankshaft by a oil pressure coupler to assist. The dirtiest, nasties thing you could imagine to change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting history by someone obviously with first hand knowledge...thanks so much for posting!

And...thank you for your service...


----------



## Mike G (Nov 22, 2022)

Many lessons was learned from the B29s.

Engine condition as briefly describe above was a Brain Child of Curtis Lemay, and became the standard in aviation.


The B-29s lost more crews and aircrafts to engine failure and ditching from running out of fuel than from the enemy, Being the 1st pressurized aircraft it was flown at its 4 Engine Service ceiling. But the crew experienced a new phenomenon the Jet Stream. Flying from Saipan, Guam and Tinian on their bombing raids they flew as high as the 4 Engine Service ceiling would allow, however during the winter months for the northern hemisphere they experience, the jet stream blasting Eastward off the Manchurian plain. They burn so much fuel bucking the winds they didn’t have any fuel to get back. So Lemay started using weather reconnaissance in front of the raids to find these winds and their velocity. The fall of Iwo Jima was crucial, because then there was a emergency alternate, almost mathematically, halfway between the islands and Japan. So a couple factors played in to Lemay’s plan, the directional rotation of the earth is west to east the prevailing winds and jet streams are west east. So his idea was to go to target below the winds and use the wind to push them back. That too is now a aviation standard.

Lemay set the standard of flying at 3 Engine Service ceiling and once 3 engine service ceiling was 4000 feet above the current altitude doing a step climb to that new altitude. The net gain was nearly a hour of cruise feel savings. { ain’t no such thing as too much fuel } He is mostly known as the bomber general however, he was a genius in applied aerodynamics. The key word is APPLIED not some obscured theory.


I personally have flown on numerous occasions from the base in Northwest Tokyo to just West of Oakland taking off going nearly a hour South near Osaka to get in the jet stream, the normal 11 hour flight was just a little over 8 hours and 5 hours of that the throttles were at Flight Idle. Note we never mission planned using the Jet to push us. Murphy’s Law insist if you do the winds diminish.


He also is the father of ETP equal time point a mathematical calculation. If you have a 10 hour flight 5 hours isn’t the ETP. You have to mathematically use the winds to correct that 5. It is really critical calculation in the jet stream because if you have to air abort at 5 hours going east with no emergency alternate It could be 7 hours back to departure station. Do you have the fuel ?? Fortunately, I never was on the minus side of the fuel curb.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Nov 22, 2022)

Mike G said:


> Many lessons was learned from the B29s.
> 
> Engine condition as briefly describe above was a Brain Child of Curtis Lemay, and became the standard in aviation.
> 
> ...


My Late Father, a Career Air Force Man, was involved with the B-29 Program during WWII including "B-29 School" in Seattle, Test Flights all over the US and his Squadron, Stationed on Tinian, included the "Enola Gay" which dropped the first Atomic Bomb.

He and his fellow Airmen used to tell us stories about just how Complicated and "Touchy" this Airplane was, so I appreciate your Post, thanks!


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 22, 2022)

Mike G said:


> ... I spent my 1st 5 years as a Recip Engine mechanic in the Philippines working MAC Enroute. West Virginia and Wyoming AirGuard flew Connies, R4360s on the C-124 was so much easier period !!
> 
> Oh, yes COOPER RUN OUT. The R-3350 was notoriously over heading. Between the bottom of the spark plug and the cylinder spark plug port, what is the copper ring, with the appearance of a washer, but actually, it was a gasket. The cylinder would get so damn hot copper would melt migrate down through the threads and caused cylinder failure in turn engine failure.
> 
> Compared to the R-4360, the R-3350 was a giant pain in the a** !


Was it easier to change/check spark plugs only on a R-4360 as compared to a R-3350?


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 22, 2022)

Mike G said:


> ...
> 
> I personally have flown on numerous occasions from the base in Northwest Tokyo to just West of Oakland taking off going nearly a hour South near Osaka to get in the jet stream, the normal 11 hour flight was just a little over 8 hours and 5 hours of that the throttles were at Flight Idle. Note we never mission planned using the Jet to push us. Murphy’s Law insist if you do the winds diminish.
> ...



I am curious how this works? At flight idle, is that enough thrust to keep the Indicated Air Speed (not Ground Speed) high enough not to stall? Or, are their periods of updrafts as well in the Jet that allows one to nose down/idle throttle? Or something else I don't know about?


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 22, 2022)

This thread is very interesting. I never realized recips on commercial and military aircraft were so complex, all of my experience as a student pilot was with the simpler engines on one engine private planes. It's no wonder the move to turbines was so rapid - the speed being the main reason of course - much like how railroads went from steam to Diesel.


----------



## Mike G (Nov 22, 2022)

UserNameRequired said:


> AmtrakMainline
> I am curious how this works? At flight idle, is that enough thrust to keep the Indicated Air Speed (not Ground Speed) high enough not to stall? Or, are their periods of updrafts as well in the Jet that allows one to nose down/idle throttle? Or something else I don't know about?


Think of a boat on a calm lake, what ever speed in put the boat will react nearly true except for the water drag.

the jet streams are large rivers of air movement I have seen as them as high as 284 kt. Take the same boat at the same motor power and go up stream in a river up you will have to over come the down stream flow. In order to Travel at that same rate requires more motor power. Go down stream with the flow it will obviously take less power for the same desired rate.

Engines at flight idle still produce the bleed required for pressurization, anti-ice and air conditioning, the generator and hydraulic pumps are driven by the CSD (constant speed drive). ideally, you’re already at cruise altitude and speed when you enter the jet stream Power is reduce till you hit the targeted cruise M number you wish to fly. So the key is keep the aircraft trimmed and in a high speed jet stream riding the river downstream.These high speeds are rare for long distance most of the time they are short burst. Near the bottom is a very rough ride and ATC will not give that to the commercial guys. Some times it would be too rough and we would fly below The jet. I few the off the West Coast as far West as the East Coast of Africa and to Antarctica to the South for 15 years. On some missions your on both sides of the equator each day. You just learn the WX and how to use it in your favor. Remember the Southern hemisphere seasons are the opposite of ours, The C-141 had over powered engines and at flight idle N1 would be near 70% and we would honk on. Now .82M was as fast as we could go because above .82M the air boundary from the leading edge of the wing would be separated causing the T -Tail to be in a vacuum and effectively stop flying and the airframe would wobble, not good, that could generate a power on stall, very well demonstrated in the simulator annually. Normally we stayed at .767M that was a nice stable platform. The aircraft had high lift wings but the down side with those and the T-Tail we were .6M slower. 

Aircraft performance is based on standard day, the up drafts are generally causEd by temperature inversions and I had indications when they were going to happen by a rapid increase in OAT. I won’t knock the commercial guys but will say we were more disciplined with our in-flight logs. Now days all this sh*t is instantly displayed on the 2 TOLD computers in real time, no more slide rule and complicated logs.


----------



## UserNameRequired (Nov 22, 2022)

Mike G said:


> ...
> 
> Engines at flight idle still produce the bleed required for pressurization, anti-ice and air conditioning, the generator and hydraulic pumps are driven by the CSD (constant speed drive). ideally, you’re already at cruise altitude and speed when you enter the jet stream Power is reduce till you hit the targeted cruise M number you wish to fly. ...
> The C-141 had over powered engines and at flight idle N1 would be near 70% and we would honk on. Now .82M was as fast as we could go because above .82M the air boundary from the leading edge of the wing would be separated causing the T -Tail to be in a vacuum and effectively stop flying and the airframe would wobble, not good, that could generate a power on stall, very well demonstrated in the simulator annually. Normally we stayed at .767M that was a nice stable platform. The aircraft had high lift wings but the down side with those and the T-Tail we were .6M slower.
> ...


Oh this part helped, I understand what you are saying now! Thanks!
I use ForeFlight for flight planning single engine land, and if you put a plan in it is using the forecast winds at each altitude for heading, computing fuel used, and time in flight, etc. It makes it so easy you get rusty doing it manually.

I think they let us crawl around inside a C-141 at the museum at Dover. I remember it beign a nice aircraft. I was there dropping off my DNA inside the base becasue they wanted it for MIA purposes. They treated me 1st class with a welcome through security and a labeled parking spot up front at their lab plus a tour!


----------



## Willbridge (Nov 24, 2022)

Mike G said:


> Post WW II Lockheed made a poor business decision not to move towards commercial jet transports. They were pleased with the Connie. This decision took them out of the large commercial aircraft market. Boeing and Douglas recognize that this was the future of aviation. It should be noted the only jet transports Lockheed built were the C-141, C-5 and The L-1011. In 1959 Department of AF ask for design and bids for 284 aircraft that became the C-141. From a business perspective it was a money loser to Boeing and Douglas. Boeing had a huge backorder of B-52s, KC-135s, B-707s and B-727s, and the B-737 on paper. Douglass had the same back order issues with their D-8 and DC-9 family of jets. Their design teams were busy with B-747 and DC-10. 300 aircraft was the magic number ( and still is ) to break even financially. So without dragging this out Lockheed won the contract by default. I few the C-141A & B for 10,054 hours as a FE, it was a fine fine aircraft. C-5 wasn’t and still isn’t any better than 62% reliable. During the C-5 design and development funding was funneled into the L-1011 design. Again poor business decision by Lockheed, choosing the Rolls-Royce engine when Pratt and Whitney and GE engines were already flight certified. RR was in bankruptcy during the time that delivery was needed and there was a two-year delay on receiving the engines which they lost many orders to the DC-10. With only 250 made and the C-5s total of 131 A models and a 2nd run of 80 some B models all 3 aircraft were below the break even magic numbers. Martin Marietta basic took them over, and other than a few C-130Js a year they are a fighter company in the Aviation division now. Another note. Lockheed notoriously has poorly design flaws in their wing boxes, require major cost in replacement.


My first trip to Europe was in May 1969 in a C-141 from McGuire AFB (Fort Dix) to Frankfurt Rhein/Main. I had the window seat if there had been windows, with ten-abreast seating. The uneventful daylight flight was run by a New Jersey reserve crew on a Saturday. "What did you do on the weekend?" Everyone else that week went on civilian charters with flight attendants.


----------



## Willbridge (Nov 24, 2022)

Living in Portland, Oregon we rarely saw Connies or B-25's. By 1960, though, DC-6's were available for charters. I think this was the Nixon campaign, as seen from the open-air observation deck at the Portland airport. One advantage of the DC-6 was that when PDX was closed by fog, flights could land at Hillsboro or Salem.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 24, 2022)

Sometime I will have to dig out short videos my dad took at Logan Airport in Boston in the early 1960s including various prop planes as well as my mother and brother arriving from a trip to London in 1962 in a BOAC Vickers VC-10. These were originally on 8mm film which he years later had transferred to videotape, which I recently had LegacyBox transfer to DVD.


----------



## basketmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

west point said:


> How he connies were flown.



Love this video. The air traffic controller sitting down talking on the microphone is my dad @16:10. He was an air traffic controller/supervisor at Miami International for 30 years. Though the film supposedly is New York/Newark but it is actually Miami.


----------



## basketmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> My first trip to Europe was in May 1969 in a C-141 from McGuire AFB (Fort Dix) to Frankfurt Rhein/Main. I had the window seat if there had been windows, with ten-abreast seating. The uneventful daylight flight was run by a New Jersey reserve crew on a Saturday. "What did you do on the weekend?" Everyone else that week went on civilian charters with flight attendants.


Did the reverse of that trip in '64. Had spent the summer in Augsburg, Germany with my sister and brother-in-law. Somehow when he was separated after his 4 years he managed to get me on a MATS flight as a dependent (I was 12). It was a Connie we flew back on. Though it wasn't uneventful. Weather in and around the New York/New Jersey area was horrendous. McGuire closed and we were diverted to Newark and it closed before we got there so off we went to Idlewild. Low and behold it closed so we wound up at Dover AFB, Delaware. The ride was definitely an "E-ticket" at Disneyworld. All but my sister, 2 flight attendants and I had bad bouts of air sickness. They actually had 2 big hospital buses meet the flight on arrival. Our dad was up there for the World's Fair and he bounced around airport to airport chasing us. Luckily, he was an air traffic controller and would run up to the towers and stay in communications with us. Was a fun trip!


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 25, 2022)

This doesn't have anything to do with props, but I notice a discrepancy in my note above about my brother and mother being on a VC-10 in 1962 since the aircraft allegedly didn't enter commercial service until 1964 according to Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure about the date of their trip as summer of 1962. I'll have to look at that film and see if I can verify the aircraft type.


----------



## MARC Rider (Nov 25, 2022)

My first flight when I was 8 was in a DC-7, Eastern Airlines from Baltimore Friendship (what is now BWI) to Miami. (I returned home on a jet, the Convair 880, on Northeast Airlines.) A few years later, we took a family trip to Florida, and my Dad saved money by booking us on a prop flight (4 hours) vs. a Jet flight (2 hours). Turbulence the whole way, it was like riding a roller coaster. I don't remember the airline, but it might have been United, if they flew from Philadelphia to Miami. I'm not sure what kind of prop planes United was flying in the early 1960s, and I don't remember what we flew.

Another notable trip was a Scout trip to the National Jamboree in 1969, where our local scouting council had a breakdown in making travel arrangements, and a bunch of us were stuck flying home from Spokane, Washington on a DC-4 from a local charter airline, Johnson Flying Services. That was a slow flight, 13 hours to get from Spokane to Philly, with a refueling stop in Rockford, Il. We had some pretty bad turbulence crossing the Rockies, but the rest of the flight, even over the Appalachians, was pretty smooth. We apparently dropped off the radar at one point, which caused some anxiety to parents waiting for us to arrive in Philly. When we got to Philly, the pilot, who had never been east of the Mississippi, was confused about where to take us, and wanted to drop us off at the FBO for general aviation instead of the terminal, where everybody was waiting for us.

My first wife's father was a private pilot, and he flew my then-wife and me up to Maine a couple of times. His first plane (a single engine 4-seater, which I don't remember the model) had limited range, so for our Teterboro - Maine flight, we had to stop in Concord, NH to refuel. Then he decided to fly right over the White Mountains, which were starting to cloud up. That was a bit of a thrill, seeing the ground rise up under you, and then fall off, plus flying in and out of clouds. But we were flying at 7,000 feet, so there was no chance we were going to hit any mountains. Later, he bought a Beechcraft Debonair, which was a bit bigger and faster and had more range, and figured out he could avoid the weather by flying right up the Connecticut River Vally. You'd putter along at 8 -9,000 feet in perfectly clear, smooth weather and see the clouds covering the White Mountains to the east and the Green Mountains to the west. That was in the early 1980s, and was the last time I ever flew in a piston-powered plane, though I took a few prop-jet commuter flights since.


----------



## 33Nicolas (Nov 25, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> My first trip to Europe was in May 1969 in a C-141 from McGuire AFB (Fort Dix) to Frankfurt Rhein/Main. I had the window seat if there had been windows, with ten-abreast seating. The uneventful daylight flight was run by a New Jersey reserve crew on a Saturday. "What did you do on the weekend?" Everyone else that week went on civilian charters with flight attendants.


My father flew Connies as well. He said the most impressive sight was watching them start their engines at night. It was a firey display.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 26, 2022)

The last time I flew in a multi engine prop plane would be in the USAF but the most memorable one in military plane was while I was in Air Force ROTC at Lehigh University in Bethlehem PA. We had a springtime trip down to Florida to tour the Space Center in a Air National Guard 4 engine transport, probably a C118. We left from ABE airport in Allentown PA. During the flight we all got a chance to sit in the pilots seat and fly the plane for a while. We landed at Patrick AF Base near Cape Canaveral and overnighted there. I remember eating breakfast at the Officers Club with a view overlooking the ocean. At that time the space center was at the height of the Apollo program with 9 on the launch pad and 10 and 11 in the VAB. We also toured the Gemini and Mercury sites rusting away in the Florida salt air. Then our flight home to ABE airport.


----------

