# Atlanta mayor proposes HSR to Savannah



## CHamilton (Nov 28, 2012)

> Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed dreams of high-speed rail to Savannah
> 
> In the past several weeks, Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed has been floating a grand new vision for Georgia — connecting Atlanta and Savannah with high-speed rail.
> 
> ...


----------



## xyzzy (Nov 28, 2012)

I think he's right, but there are others who argue that Atlanta-Charlotte or commuter rail into Atlanta should be given priority.

The current view of HSR is to run Atlanta-Jesup-Savannah. A jog through Jesup allows a faster connection from Atlanta to Florida, and it's more palatable to the people who live near Brunswick.


----------



## jphjaxfl (Nov 28, 2012)

The fact that it is in Georgia means it really is only a "dream ". 10-15 yrs ago they were dreaming of High speed rail from Atlanta to Chattanooga. In 1995, they were dreaming of trains between Athens and Atlanta for the Olympics. In the past 10 years, they were dreaming of commuter trains between Atlanta and Macon which was cut back to Forsyth. They have been dreaming of an intermodal terminal in the center of Atlanta because they demolished 2 perfectly good train stations and the current Amtrak Peachtree Station is inadequate and few people know where it is. Until I can step on a high speed train in Atlanta, it will be just a dream like the others.


----------



## George Harris (Nov 28, 2012)

T A L K - I S - C H E A P


----------



## Anderson (Nov 28, 2012)

1) 200 MPH _average_ speed? The newspaper people need to get a better idea of train speed limits.

2) I'll believe in it when either funding is formally allocated for a _project_ and not a _study_, or when ground is broken on something meaningful. That or Delta goes insolvent (and removes a major local political obstacle), which I don't see happening.


----------



## jis (Nov 28, 2012)

I think Hizzoner needs to first focus on ficxing things in the domain that he controls, i.e. fix the transit system in Atlanta and grow it to provide better coverage, and while at it work on resolving the issue of Amtrak Station.


----------



## Anderson (Nov 28, 2012)

True. Even improving transit links to the existing station and getting it an actual parking lot would be an improvement. I think the jam _there_ is explaining why you're putting money into a station serving one train per day in each direction which lacks any capacity to add passengers. It would probably be easier to get money for a station if there were one or two other trains seriously being looked at.


----------



## me_little_me (Nov 29, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> The fact that it is in Georgia means it really is only a "dream ". 10-15 yrs ago they were dreaming of High speed rail from Atlanta to Chattanooga. In 1995, they were dreaming of trains between Athens and Atlanta for the Olympics. In the past 10 years, they were dreaming of commuter trains between Atlanta and Macon which was cut back to Forsyth. They have been dreaming of an intermodal terminal in the center of Atlanta because they demolished 2 perfectly good train stations and the current Amtrak Peachtree Station is inadequate and few people know where it is. Until I can step on a high speed train in Atlanta, it will be just a dream like the others.


Good summary of the history of Atlanta rail from 15 years ago to the present. More like a fantasy than a dream.


----------



## Nathanael (Nov 29, 2012)

Indeed, while I have no doubt that the Mayor of Atlanta is serious about this, I seriously doubt he has the taxing authority to fund it. And unfortunately, this being Georgia, the state won't help fund it, and neither will any of the governments in between Savannah and Atlanta. The government of Savannah might not even want to take part.

There have been instances of extremely politically powerful and rich cities building railroad and other infrastructure outside their own jurisdictions without needing state support, but Atlanta is not that city, not right now.


----------



## xyzzy (Nov 30, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> they demolished 2 perfectly good train stations


I lived in Atlanta at the time, and it was more complicated than that. It was Amtrak, not the City of Atlanta, who decided to drop the one remaining train that used Union Station and the one remaining train that used only Terminal Station. Southern was happy to use Brookwood for the Southern Crescent and the Piedmont because Southern wanted to sell the land underneath Terminal Station -- which would have been grossly oversized for one daily train. Running the Southern Crescent and Piedmont in and out of Union Station would have required new track work and some time-consuming equipment moves. Plus, the area around Union Station was going to be impacted severely by MARTA rail construction within a few years.

In retrospect, one can say it's unfortunate that both Union Station and Terminal Station bit the dust, but at the time it seemed logical.


----------



## Anderson (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess the shame at the moment is that Brookwood can't be upgraded (or, failing that, moved while staying along the mainline).


----------



## jphjaxfl (Dec 1, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > they demolished 2 perfectly good train stations
> ...


 Southern moved the Crescent and Piedmont from Terminal Station to Peachtree Station almost a year before Amtrak started, The Southern's subsidiary Central of Georgia's Nancy Hanks continued to us a platfrom at Terminal Station but you had to get to the platform by going into the Southern Railway Office building and taking the elevator down to the platform. That arrangement continued until April 30, 1971. Even though Souther didn't join Amtrak, their subsidiary Central of Georgia did. L&N's former Georgian continued to use Union Station until April 30, 1971. Georgia Railroad's train to Augusta had already moved to the Georgia RR Freight house accross from the capital. There were always connecting track between Terminal and Union Station because trains like the Southland LTD and Flamingo stopped at both stations. The bottom line was that Southern wanted Terminal Station vacated so they could sell the land which became the Federal Building. This was done before Amtrak started and Amtrak had very little impact on it. The L&N had driven away most of the passengers on their last train to from St. Louis to Atlanta. L&N had filed to discontinue that train over a year prior to Amtrak started, but the ICC refused to allow it. The train was a 16 hour coach only train with no food service from St. Louis to Atlanta with no options for food at any station. ICC made L&N add a snack bar coach to the train instead of allowing it to discontinue. It lumbered on until Amtrak with less than a full coach of passengers on most days. I road the train a number of times and also attended ICC "train off" hearings during the last couple of years.


----------



## xyzzy (Dec 1, 2012)

Thinking southbound, a train like the Flamingo could come into downtown Atlanta on the L&N/NC&StL, enter Union Station, back up a short distance, enter Terminal Station, and then keep going straight south on the CofG.

Even if Southern had an ulterior motive (real estate $$) to get rid of Terminal Station, it's is true that dropping Terminal Station cut about 30 minutes off the schedule of the Southern Crescent for passengers south (west) of Atlanta. This would be true today as well.

My point was: if Amtrak had chosen to run Chicago-Florida via Atlanta instead of via Montgomery, Union Station probably would have survived because it wouldn't have made any sense for that train to serve Brookwood. It wasn't an option to operate the Nancy Hanks out of Brookwood because of ex-CofG labor district boundaries. Another factor was that Southern didn't want a third passenger train clogging up the mainline at Brookwood. And another factor was that many NH passengers were simply walking across the street to shop at Rich's; if the train went to Brookwood instead, it would lose most of its passengers and have even worse financials than it already did. So, Southern continued to run the NH out of the Terminal Station platforms. It would have been possible for the NH to run out of Union instead although this would have required some negotiating with the L&N.


----------



## jphjaxfl (Dec 2, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> Thinking southbound, a train like the Flamingo could come into downtown Atlanta on the L&N/NC&StL, enter Union Station, back up a short distance, enter Terminal Station, and then keep going straight south on the CofG.
> 
> Even if Southern had an ulterior motive (real estate $$) to get rid of Terminal Station, it's is true that dropping Terminal Station cut about 30 minutes off the schedule of the Southern Crescent for passengers south (west) of Atlanta. This would be true today as well.
> 
> My point was: if Amtrak had chosen to run Chicago-Florida via Atlanta instead of via Montgomery, Union Station probably would have survived because it wouldn't have made any sense for that train to serve Brookwood. It wasn't an option to operate the Nancy Hanks out of Brookwood because of ex-CofG labor district boundaries. Another factor was that Southern didn't want a third passenger train clogging up the mainline at Brookwood. And another factor was that many NH passengers were simply walking across the street to shop at Rich's; if the train went to Brookwood instead, it would lose most of its passengers and have even worse financials than it already did. So, Southern continued to run the NH out of the Terminal Station platforms. It would have been possible for the NH to run out of Union instead although this would have required some negotiating with the L&N.


 No Chicago to Florida train via Atlanta existed on April 30, 1971. Amtrak was set up to take over and maintain a small percentage of exisiting trains. Actually only 1 through Chicago to Florida route existed on April 30, 1971 which was the City of Miami which ran Chicago-Carbondale-Jackson, TN-Birmingham-Columbus-Albany-Waycross-Jacksonvile. The South Wind route via Indianapolis- Louisville- Nashville- Birmingham - Montgomery- Thomasville-Waycross-Jacksonville required a change in Louisville for about a year before Amtrak started. The South Wind route was chosen over the City of Miami route because of more population. The last Chicago-Florida trains via Atlanta was L&N's Dixie Flyer which last ran through in about 1965. It died a slow death being discontinued from Chicago to Vincennes, IN first, then from Vincennes to Atlanta within a year. The ACL portion from Atlanta to Jacksonville lasted as a coach only train until 1968 because it had a mail contract. The Southern's Royal Palm and Ponce De Leon had their through service from Chicago through Atlanta to Florida cut back to Cincinnati about 1960. Amtrak started on a very limited budget and would not have had the funds to replace the passenger train infrastructure that was long gone from the Chicago-Atlanta-Florida routes.In all my Southern timetables and my official guides, the current Amtrak Station is referred to as Peachtree Street Station. Thats what the Southern Conductor would say when the train was about to make that stop on the way to Terminal Station. I know Peachtree Street Station is located in the Brookwood section of Atlanta.

Union Station was very close to Rich's big Department Store, but it was a hike from Terminal Station and the Southern Railway Building.


----------



## xyzzy (Dec 2, 2012)

I agree with the analysis of why Amtrak didn't choose Chicago-Florida via Atlanta; what started this rehash of history rehash was an idea that Atlanta is culpable for allowing the two downtown stations to be razed.

I don't think any Atlanta native calls it Peachtree Station, although that's always been the official name. Before I-85 was widened in the 1980s, there was a Brookwood Ave. that intersected Peachtree St. at the station.

Rich's was in the block bounded by Alabama, Broad, Hunter (now MLK), and Forsyth.. the same distance from Union and the Southern building.


----------



## afigg (Dec 3, 2012)

jis said:


> I think Hizzoner needs to first focus on ficxing things in the domain that he controls, i.e. fix the transit system in Atlanta and grow it to provide better coverage, and while at it work on resolving the issue of Amtrak Station.


If I may pick up on this a few days later, there is an offering web page to developers on the proposed site for the new Amtrak station in Atlanta at 17th Street and Northside Drive. The latest document on there from Nov. 13 is a cancellation notice of the Request for Quotation, so there may have been insufficient interest shown by the developers. The specifics in the offering a 1200' long platform, a layover/storage track, a pull-over track to the platform, a 16,000 square foot station facility. The station location is no where close to a MARTA station which is a big negative, but not much Amtrak can do about that.

On the subject of an Atlanta to Savannah HSR line, the past several years have made it rather clear, that going from no passenger rail service to building a HSR line is too big a hurdle in getting widespread political support for a public project. There is support in CA, the Northeast, IL for HSR because they have passenger rail service. If the politicians in Atlanta want to build a HSR corridor, they should first expand rail transit in Atlanta, start a commuter rail line or two, find the money to upgrade the tracks for a conventional intercity corridor rail service from Atlanta to Charlotte & Raleigh NC, Savannah, Jacksonville & Orlando. Once enough people in the Atlanta region discover that people will take trains, then start on proposals for true HSR. Yes, that will take a decade or two, but got to walk before you can run at 300 kph.


----------



## George Harris (Dec 3, 2012)

afigg said:


> There is support in CA, the Northeast, IL for HSR because they have passenger rail service. If the politicians in Atlanta want to build a HSR corridor, they should first expand rail transit in Atlanta, start a commuter rail line or two, find the money to upgrade the tracks for a conventional intercity corridor rail service from Atlanta to Charlotte & Raleigh NC, Savannah, Jacksonville & Orlando. Once enough people in the Atlanta region discover that people will take trains, then start on proposals for true HSR. Yes, that will take a decade or two, but got to walk before you can run at 300 kph.


Putting on a couple of trains that have average speeds in the 40 mph minus range will give you trains that nobody rides, for real, which will give the anti-train people more ammunition, not less. If you can't do a reasonably good job of it, it would be better to not start. You don't necessarily need true high speed, but you had better be able to average somewhere around 50 mph plus and parallel a fairly congested highway network.


----------



## MattW (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm on the fence about this project as a whole. I'd like to see HSR develop, and I think a 220mph Miami-Jacksonville-Atlanta-???-Chicago route would work, but I'm not sure about trying to run 220mph trains Atlanta to Savannah first, nor even running 220mph trains Atlanta to Savannah second. Macon to Savannah seems like it could be a Keystone-type operation branching off an Atlanta-Florida backbone with run-through traffic to Atlanta, rather than part of the backbone itself.

As to the station, the 17th Street Station idea seems to have fallen back again in favor of the downtown MMPT again. I personally favor a downtown station, though I'm concerned about the Crescent's operations unless the Beltline can be taken back for real railroad operations, or re-routed to go down by the Airport and through Montgomery and Mobile.

Expanded transit in and around Atlanta would be great, but the politico-socio climate doesn't currently support it. We might be able to get a rail line from Atlanta to Athens, but even local commuter rail just isn't really in the cards. Something that garners support from non metro-area politicians and citizens would be more likely to be funded, than an Atlanta-centric local system.

I agree that corridor service to Charlotte would be great, particularly once the SEHSR gets going north of Raleigh which might could allow for a day train Atlanta-New York or at least Washington. The Crescent currently does the 258 miles between Atlanta and Charlotte in five and a half hours. Or about 46 miles per hour. The Crescent 19 originating on December 2 was 25 minutes early into both stations. Not sure how early into Charlotte would affect run times between Charlotte and Atlanta, but pulling 30 minutes of padding off brings us down to 51mph average speed, pulling an hour off brings us down to 57mph.

Corridor service to Savannah with conventional equipment is a little tricker. There are two railroads from Macon to Savannah, the Georgia Central Railroad (Class III) and a Norfolk Southern route. Norfolk Southern is the obvious choice (ok, I'm guessing here) because of the potentially lesser upgrades probably needed. But in between Macon and Savannah, you have towns like Gordon, Tennile, and Millen with populations of 2k, 7k (including Sandersville), and 3.4k (12.4k total) respectively, though it does get you close to Savannah International Airport. The Georgia Central route goes through Dublin, and Vidalia with 16k and 10.4k (26.4k total) respectively. The GCR route already has double the population of the NS route. Both routes however meander a ways from the direct Macon-Savannah route, I-16.The interstate presents a third route. This gets you directly Dublin, Metter and not be unreasonable to drive to from Statesboro (Georgia Southern University). The populations are 16k, 3.8k, and 28.4k with a lot of seasonal traffic to and from Statesboro. By the time you build down I-16 however with all-new right of way, you might as well go the whole way with HSR as I can't imagine the RoW and track costs being so much more for 220mph than maybe 125mph (please correct me if I'm wrong about this). But even running 125, Macon and Savannah are 1:40ish apart, with Atlanta being another hour and a half at most from Macon (at conventional speeds). Running 220mph would put Macon and Savannah at just over an hour apart. However, running down I-16 wouldn't get you into downtown, and Statesboro would be a 15 minute drive from an I-16 station, though perhaps a new RoW could leave I-16 and have a station right at Georgia Southern before coming back toward Savannah. There would need to be a lot of eminent domain-ing of farmland, but I'm figuring this to be easier than in an urban/suburban setting.

Then there's also the issue of a Savannah station. Could the current one support corridor-level traffic? It's sure not very convenient to the city of Savannah. If I had my druthers, I'd put a large station right about where I-16 ends, over W. Gwinnett Street with some kind of connection to allow the Silvers access without a backing move. This location is about as close as you can get to Savannah without wrecking any neighborhoods.


----------



## xyzzy (Dec 4, 2012)

If a downtown site is chosen for a new Amtrak or multimodal station, there's no way for the Crescent to reach it except by a jog south from Howell Tower that requires a back-up move. Hell will freeze over before the old Southern mainline is put back in.

Rerouting the Crescent via Montgomery would increase running time between Atlanta and New Orleans by 2 hours, perhaps more.

Sure, the schedule for the Crescent could be tightened. This is typical for Amtrak. Just the other day, the Silver Meteor made up 1 hour 45 minutes en route. But if you tighten the schedules, a higher percentage of trains will run late. Choose your poison.

The track options in south Georgia have been studied many times. The most recent recommendation was neither the ex-CofG nor the ex-MD&S. Instead, it was to run on the ex-Southern Macon-Brunswick line as far as Jesup and then use the ex-ACL (currently used by Amtrak) to reach Savannah. The Brunswick line is relatively straight and flat, carries relatively little freight but is in good condition already, and can be reached accessed easily in Macon.

Unfortunately, I-16 and I-516 in Savannah were routed in such a way as to make a run-through station east of 516 very expensive. I can see a way to do it, using railroad right of way that was abandoned when 16 was built -- but it would require building a long bridge over one edge of the 16/516 interchange. And if you can't get east of 516, what's the point of moving the station?


----------



## afigg (Dec 4, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Putting on a couple of trains that have average speeds in the 40 mph minus range will give you trains that nobody rides, for real, which will give the anti-train people more ammunition, not less. If you can't do a reasonably good job of it, it would be better to not start. You don't necessarily need true high speed, but you had better be able to average somewhere around 50 mph plus and parallel a fairly congested highway network.


The average speed of the Downeaster between BOS and Portland and the Surfliner between LAX and SAN are both around 46 mph. The average speed of the Surfliner from Santa Barbara to San Diego drops to around 40 mph. Those trains are considered pretty successful. Both corridors have improved their trip times since they started and will reduce the trip times in the coming years.

Starting a new service in Georgia, one would prefer to start with an average speed of 45 to 50 mph, but a service with an average speed of 40 to 45 mph may be seen as successful if it is presented as phase 1 of a longer term improvement program.


----------



## jis (Dec 4, 2012)

To some extent it depends on how badly congested the alternatives are. NJT service on the M&E is miserably slow but it still works out because the highways are even slower on an average day. What may be even more important is that the transit time by highways is way more unpredictable than one by NJT.


----------



## CHamilton (Aug 15, 2014)

HSR proposals from Atlanta are back, this time to Columbus, GA. Sound familiar?

Whoosh! From Atlanta to Columbus in 61 minutes


----------



## MattW (Aug 15, 2014)

Waste of money. $3.6 Billion would just about build out a very nice commuter rail network for Atlanta out to 30-40 miles.


----------



## xyzzy (Aug 15, 2014)

Just because Columbus wants to be a bedroom community for Atlanta? Ain't gonna happen.


----------



## Shawn Ryu (Aug 16, 2014)

How about expanding MARTA service first?


----------

