# MBTA replacing concrete ties with wooden ties



## ACVitale (Apr 22, 2011)

According to this article....

http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-21/yourtown/29459974_1_joe-pesaturo-massachusetts-bay-commuter-railroad-weekday-trains

"Weekend rail riders will have to find alternative transportation while the MBTA replaces crumbling concrete rail ties with wood ties along 57 miles of the Old Colony line."

It seems that MBTA likes wood better then concrete.... Any comments


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## WhoozOn1st (Apr 22, 2011)

Amtrak has also had problems with prematurely crumbling concrete ties, but I don't think its solution was to revert to wood.


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## Acela150 (Apr 23, 2011)

Amtrak had problems in the NEC. The problem was cracks in the ties. Mostly in NJ. The maker who's name escapes me at the time replaced them free of charge but Amtrak got hit with most of the costs.


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## WhoozOn1st (Apr 23, 2011)

Here's the T's web page for the project:

Old Colony Commuter Rail Tie Replacement Project

"On Monday, March 14th, the MBTA resumed the project to replace approximately 57 miles of concrete cross-ties on the Middleborough and Kingston Lines of the Old Colony. The concrete ties are beginning to fail, resulting in safety speed restrictions which have caused numerous delays. [T]he concrete ties are being replaced with timber cross-ties which have a proven performance record."


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## TransitGeek (Apr 23, 2011)

WhoozOn1st said:


> Here's the T's web page for the project:
> 
> Old Colony Commuter Rail Tie Replacement Project
> 
> "On Monday, March 14th, the MBTA resumed the project to replace approximately 57 miles of concrete cross-ties on the Middleborough and Kingston Lines of the Old Colony. The concrete ties are beginning to fail, resulting in safety speed restrictions which have caused numerous delays. [T]he concrete ties are being replaced with timber cross-ties which have a proven performance record."


"On Monday, March 14th, the University resumed a project to replace approximately 57 computers in the student computing labs. The computers are beginning to fail, resulting in downtime which have caused numerous frustrations. The computers are being replaced with electric typewriters, which have a proven performance record."

I fail to see the wisdom in this project.


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## ACVitale (Apr 23, 2011)

I was under the impression (Could be wrong) that most problems with Concrete ties were due to manufactering defects/issues and that in many cases could be traced back to improper concrete make up.

I know that in SFL they have been replacing wood with concrete.

Further, I heard that composites are now the "best" option with recycled materials being made into ties that apparently hold up better then wood or concrete in testing.

Just my lack of knowledge showing itself


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## jis (Apr 23, 2011)

ACVitale said:


> I was under the impression (Could be wrong) that most problems with Concrete ties were due to manufactering defects/issues and that in many cases could be traced back to improper concrete make up.


Here is a pretty definitive timeline of what occurred. MBTA does not come out looking particularly competent in the whole affair either. But this event does not indicate anything about concrete ties as a technology. It says a lot about the utter incompetence of various parties involved in various ways.

Incidentally Amtrak has competed replacement of the defective ties from Rocla, with better manufactured concrete ties, and it has also been converting main line switches from wood to concrete ties.

MBTA clearly does not have the money, absent a settlement with Rocla to buy and install another set of concrete ties, which do cost more than wood ties.



> I know that in SFL they have been replacing wood with concrete.
> 
> Further, I heard that composites are now the "best" option with recycled materials being made into ties that apparently hold up better then wood or concrete in testing.
> 
> Just my lack of knowledge showing itself


Actually there is an environmental issue lurking there too. US still has substantial wood available. In countries like India use of wood for ties is for all practical purposes, banned, because deforestation is such a huge issue. Way before concrete ties were available they had started using cast iron and steel ties. Now it is almost exclusively concrete in India.


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## Ryan (Apr 23, 2011)

The MBTA doesn't come off looking like roses, but Rocla comes off looking like crooks. They say "These ties will last for 50 years", offer them with a 15 year warranty and then when they fail within that 15 year period claim that essentially there is no warranty because it would bankrupt the company?

I hope they lose in court and the company gets scattered to the four winds.


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## ACVitale (Apr 23, 2011)

After reading the links... Makes me think Rocla needs to go out of business and criminal or fraud charges be considered against the key corporate officers. Clearly this is a reoccuring problem.

On another note. I noticed during 4 1/2 years living in Africa that they used steel ties extensively over wood, concrete and other options. So the comments on India and SE Asia do not surprise me. In some cases the steel ties are well over 50-70 years old and are reused during refurbishment of the track..

Does make me wonder about the S FLA ties and how they will hold up. Also wondering if composite will work best. Seems that composite decking and other building materials outlast/outproform wood.



jis said:


> ACVitale said:
> 
> 
> > I was under the impression (Could be wrong) that most problems with Concrete ties were due to manufactering defects/issues and that in many cases could be traced back to improper concrete make up.
> ...


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## ACVitale (Apr 23, 2011)

Went to the Rocla website http://www.roclatie.com

No mention of any of the issues. Apparently, the largest manufacter of concrete ties and still have the same claims that hurt the MBTA project.

Wondering how with all the business and market share they have how honoring the warranty will void the warranty.


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## George Harris (Apr 23, 2011)

Wood is relatively simple and goof proof. Get the treatment right and they will last 30 plus years. In Massachusetts under light axle loads, probably a good deal longer. In Massachusetts with the level of sleaze and corruption, the species will likely be wrong and the treatment not much more than black paint and the life will probably be under 10 years. Under high volume high axle load traffic, wood is subject to plate cutting and wear around the spike holes, which can be mitigated or eliminated with a better rail fastening system. Wood ties are known entities, have been around for over 150 years and "everybody" understands them.

Concrete requires proper design, materials selection, and manufacturing. There are more things that can go wrong, be done wrong, or be done dishonestly, which I would suspect the last to be the case in Massachusetts. There is a very detailed discussion and set of design guidelines in the Manual of the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance of Way Association (AREMA Manual), that if followed will give you a good product that may last the advertized 50 years. However, concrete is inherently less tolerant of poor ballast and support conditions than wood. Concrete ties have been around for 60 plus years with verying levels of success. They have frequently been oversold by their promoters. (Remember, it was the publicists, not the designers and builders that called the Titanic unsinkable.)

Steel ties are mainly used in tropical areas where the termites carry chain saws and getting quality concrete is somewhere between difficult and impossible. They are major headaches in signaled tracks because insulation is required between rail and tie for the signal system to work and the insulation is difficult to keep good. They have a tendency to move around to much in the ballast and will bend if the ballast support is too uneven.

Composites: Quite a few types of these have come and gone over the last 50 plus years. There is a new version out now that looks promising, but some of the previous versions did also. Some versions of these will burn with much greater enthusiasm than creosoted wood ties. Some claim to not support combustion. These things also tend to be oversold by their promoters.

Formerly wood ties were significantly cheaper than concrete or composites. The difference is now much smaller due to restrictions on the use of preservatives. Wood is the ultimate in renewable resources, as trees continue to grow, reach maturity and will reach the point where they will either die or be cut. I would consider the application of wood in this instance to be a reasonable decision.


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## ACVitale (Apr 23, 2011)

Makes sense. The places I saw the steel ties used were not where there was ANY kind of signalling...

I suspect composite would definately have burn issues had not thought about that as I know wood/creosote is very flamable.

Thanks for the insight.


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## GlobalistPotato (Apr 29, 2011)

From what I had read, the concrete ties had the highest failure rates around grade-crossings, which get salted during the winter. The salt degraded the concrete and... yeah...


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## Nexis4Jersey (Apr 30, 2011)

What about Rubber or plastic ties , there cheaper and seems to work just as well as concrete. Although there better for lighter loads....like Light Rail or Subways....


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## George Harris (Apr 30, 2011)

GlobalistPotato said:


> From what I had read, the concrete ties had the highest failure rates around grade-crossings, which get salted during the winter. The salt degraded the concrete and... yeah...


What salt usually does to concrete is not to degrade the concrete itself, but if poor in quality allows the salt water to get to the rebar and cause rust. Rust has a larger volume that the steel that is rusted and therefore breaks the concrete around it.

Likewise, if the concrete is poor in quality, read porus, water is absorbed into it and when it freezes, increasing the volume of the water, it pops off or crumbles the surrounding concrete. (Remember, if ice did not have a larger volume than the frozen water it contains, ice would not float.)

Either way, it would suggest somewhat poor quality concrete. The concrete in concrete ties is supposed to be in the range of 7,000 psi plus. For compparison, the concrete in your driveway or basement is probably in the range of 3,000 psi minus.



Nexis4Jersey said:


> What about Rubber or plastic ties , there cheaper and seems to work just as well as concrete. Although there better for lighter loads....like Light Rail or Subways....


Many alternatives to wood have been tried over the years. None truly successful so far. They either are too expensive or do not work as advertized. As to ties in rubber, that is news to me. Any references? There are several plastic or composite ties that are out there in small quantities, but so far none have stood out.

Hint: the guys that sell these things usually moan about the lack of willingness to try new things on the part of the railroad track guys. That is really not true. They are always on the lookout for a way to do things better, easier, cheaper, but promises do not equal performance. The general method is buy a few and try it out. Since the normal life of a good wood tie is 30 years plus, that is a fairly high bar for the substitutes to leap over.

If somebody truly has a good product, they try to sell it on its merits, not by disparaging the current material. The guys that work with the stuff are well acquainted with the disadvantages, as well as the advantages of the materials currently in use. Another little point: If the guy with the new product calls on the management types rather than the engineering types, he probably has nothing worth selling and should be treated accordingly.


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## Nexis4Jersey (May 5, 2011)

A Few Light Rail systems are trying them at Bridges and Curves...


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## ACVitale (May 8, 2011)

Not quite the same but.....

Was here in Washington DC for National Train Day. In the course of the evening entertainment I took the Metro around the VA. DC area. I noticed at the King Street station nearly every attachment point on the metro tracks on the Northbound side had significant cracking, missing bolts, loose bolts, etc. Left me feeling very uncomfortable as clearly the strength of the rail attachment points was compromised.

I wonder about the quality of inspections and the opportunity for derailment given the poor quality of the maintenance.


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## Nexis4Jersey (May 8, 2011)

ACVitale said:


> Not quite the same but.....
> 
> Was here in Washington DC for National Train Day. In the course of the evening entertainment I took the Metro around the VA. DC area. I noticed at the King Street station nearly every attachment point on the metro tracks on the Northbound side had significant cracking, missing bolts, loose bolts, etc. Left me feeling very uncomfortable as clearly the strength of the rail attachment points was compromised.
> 
> I wonder about the quality of inspections and the opportunity for derailment given the poor quality of the maintenance.


There having issues , read below for more...WMATA budget not a crisis thanks to leadership, though some harmful cuts remain Take Metro in a wheelchair, just once


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