# Broadway Ltd. v. Twentieth Century Ltd.



## northnorthwest (Apr 8, 2015)

The recent question about rebuilding of the B'way Ltd. reminded me of something I've always wondered about. Back in the days of true rail competition, what were the reasons people took one line over the other. Take the example of going from the East Coast (NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Washington) to Chicago. I know you had the NY Central, the PRR, the B&O, maybe some others I'm not familiar with. If you were the average traveler in one of these cities how much choice did you have in which train to take? And what helped you decide? Was it pretty much the same as today's travel decisions, things like schedules, length of trip, cost, availability of seats, etc? And perhaps there were other factors like they have better scenery on one route, or the seating or rooms are more comfortable on one, or you like a certain meal offering, or all your business partners take one route, or you like the barber on one train, etc...And did they have "frequent rider" programs to encourage patronage?

Feel free to take any aspect of this topic. I'm fascinated by all of it.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 8, 2015)

Yes to all of the above!

There were three famous Streamliners introduced in 1938 that ran from New York City Westward.. Their consist was all Pullman Sleepers with 2 Diners and Deluxe Lounge/Parlour Cars. They had very Lumited Stops and had a 16 hour Schedule between New York City and Chicago.

The 20th Century Ltd., New York Central's crack New York to Chicago train, ran out of Grand Central Terminal to LaSalle Street Station, and used the Water Level route that today's Lake Shore Ltd. mostly uses. There actually was a Red Carpet rolled out on the Platform @ Grand Central for passengers to walk on as they boarded. It was called " The Most Famous Train in the World!) See Alfred Hitchcock's excellent " North by Northwest" filmed partially aboard this train!

The PRR's crack train, the Broadway Ltd., ran from the old dearly missed Penn Station in NYC to Chicago via Philadelphia into Union Station and matched the Broadway Ltd. in all respects.

By the 1950s as passenger trains were dying, they were downgraded with Coaches, more stops and of course diesel engines replaced the steamers!

These two used to race between New York and Chicago and were heavily advertised as "The Way" to travel in style, comfort and speed!"

The third crack train train was B&Os Capitol Ltd. that ran via Washington DC and wasn't as successful. B&O also ran the National Ltd. (a very good train) out of New York which went via Cincinnati to St. Louis' Union Station. Amtrak brought it back in the 1970s but it didn't last long.


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## PaulM (Apr 8, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> B&O also ran the National Ltd. (a very good train) out of New York which went via Cincinnati to St. Louis' Union Station. Amtrak brought it back in the 1970s but it didn't last long.


Slight correction. The B&O National Ltd. ran from Baltimore to St. Louis via Cincinnati, with possibly a Washington section. I rode it in a slumber coach from BAL to STL in 1965.

But Amtrak's National Ltd. ran from NY to STL via Pittsburgh on the old Pennsylvania, with an extension to KCY at some point. In the spring of 1979 I rode it between NYP and Columbus, OH, hoping to catch up with the Tour of the Sciota River Valley, a famous two day bike ride. The engine conked out at Newark, OH, just outside Columbus; and when I finally arrived, I had to pedal like a demented monkey to catch up with the tour. I believe the train was killed that Fall.


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## amtkstn (Apr 8, 2015)

The National Limited was part of the 1979 Carter train killing.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 8, 2015)

I remember a David Morgan article where he mentioned that he tended to take the Broadway Limited when traveling to New York because he was usually traveling from Milwaukee on a Milwaukee Road train. Since both Milwaukee Road and the Pennsylvania Railroad used Chicago Union Station, this allowed for an easier transfer.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

The PRR Panhandle Route on which the Amtrak National Limited ran has been abandoned and dismantled over significant lengths.

The Washington to Cincy part of the route of the B&O National Limited was reintroduced soon after the B&O National Limited was discontinued in 1971, as Amtrak Shenandoah for a while, while the Amtrak National Limited became the PRR New York to St Louis service renamed as the National Limited. I forget what PRR called its St Louis service and I am away from my old paper timetables half way round the world.until Sunday.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 8, 2015)

I'll disagree about the National Ltd. Running from New York Paul!

I used Google to look up my info in my Post and all of the sites I checked indicated the National Ltd. ran from 1925 out of New York with stops in Baltimore, Washington, Cincinnati and St.Louis.( some schedules even had KCY as the terminus) It was the first all Air Conditioned/ All Pullmsn train on this route and ran on various schedules till it was discontinued in 1971. Amtrak later ran a version that used a different route out of Baltimore (as well as the Capitol Ltd out of WAS) but was killed in the Carter cuts!


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

It was discontinued in 1971 and then a truncated portion of it between Washington and Cincy was introduced as the Shenandoah a couple of years later. AFAIR it died in '79.


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## FormerOBS (Apr 8, 2015)

For reference, I discussed some of these routes this morning in the "Broadway Ltd. Route Being Rebuilt" thread. This might give some context re. the possible future use of some of these routes.

The less glamorous old Erie route is often overlooked, and I'm sure it'll never return. I recall riding the Erie Lackawanna's Lake Cities in the 1960's when Agnes Moorehead was aboard. She took her meals in her room and I never saw her. I suspect she preferred that route because the train's Chicago terminal was Dearborn Station. She could easily transfer to Santa Fe's Super Chief without changing stations.

Tom


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## railiner (Apr 8, 2015)

The Broadway Limited and the Twentieth Century Limited ran what was perhaps the fiercest rivalry on the rails, during the "Golden Age" of rail passenger travel....

they both started out as heavyweight standard all-Pullman trains at the turn of the 20th century. Both were re-equipped with modern streamlined passenger cars and steam locomotives in 1938, with similar features and amenities.. Famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy for the Pennsy, and Henry Dreyfuss for the Central. Both ran on identical timings from end to end. As a matter of fact, they used to "race" each other for the several miles departing the Englewood station, before their routes diverged, each day, to the delight of their passengers.

They were both re-equipped with modern postwar equipment around 1949. All-Pullman service ended on the Century in 1957, when coaches were introduced. The Broadway remained all Pullman until the end of the PRR in 1968. When it became Penn Central, the Broadway was ended, and The General, was renamed The Broadway, and had coaches in the consist. At that time the former NYC trains on that route lost their names, and were identified only by numbers. When Amtrak started, they selected the Broadway to serve NYC - Chicago. Later on, the Lake Shore was started. And most of you are aware of the demise of the Broadway in more recent Amtrak history....

The B&O's Capitol Limited, was a much weaker contender in the competition, with a longer and slower route. The B&O service to New York (actually Jersey City then ferry or bus connection to the city) ended around 1958. Then trains originated in Baltimore and usually went via Washington on their way to Chicago, rather than using the old original B&O line. Towards the end of B&O service, trains originated in Washington, with an RDC connection to/from Baltimore.

B&O's National Limited ran from its eastern terminus to Cumberland, but then left the route to Pittsburgh and Chicago for Clarksburg, Parkersburg, Cincinnati, Vincennes, and St. Louis. The Amtrak National Limited took over the route of the former PRR Spirit of St. Louis from New York to St. Louis, and extended on to Kansas City over the Missouri Pacific. For a while, it had a thru section from Washington (as did the Amtrak Broadway Limited); and it also had a thru New York to Los Angeles sleeper that was switched to the Super Chief or Southwest Limited at Kansas City.

Other contenders were the Erie from Jersey City to Chicago, also much slower, and with less amenities than the first three. Another option was the Lackawanna or Lehigh Valley to Buffalo, with connections, and sometimes thru cars with either the Nickel Plate Road, or the Wabash, from Buffalo to Chicago. Later, the Erie merged with the Lackawanna, and moved its operations into Lackawanna's Hoboken terminal.

Less direct were using the C&O, the N&W, or even the Grand Trunk Western for east-west travel......

Each line had its partisans....and of course, did serve different places in-between the end points. As far as speed goes...the PRR wins that one...it briefly ran the Broadway in only 15 hours and 30 minutes, eastward...

I am not aware of any 'loyalty reward program' in that era.

And while the old 'Railroad Transfer Service' did provide connections between all of the Chicago stations, some would select their train to make a same station connection.

Also for some time, the PRR, NYC, and B&O did provide thru sleepers with the principal connecting trains to the West and Southwest....the cars would even be switched between stations when necessary.....

As for scenery....they all had nice scenery, although much of the best part crossing the Alleghenies was in the dark, on most of these trains.


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## northnorthwest (Apr 8, 2015)

railiner said:


> The Broadway Limited and the Twentieth Century Limited ran what was perhaps the fiercest rivalry on the rails, during the "Golden Age" of rail passenger travel....
> 
> they both started out as heavyweight standard all-Pullman trains at the turn of the 20th century. Both were re-equipped with modern streamlined passenger cars and steam locomotives in 1938, with similar features and amenities.. Famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy for the Pennsy, and Henry Dreyfuss for the Central. Both ran on identical timings from end to end. As a matter of fact, they used to "race" each other for the several miles departing the Englewood station, before their routes diverged, each day, to the delight of their passengers.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is really interesting.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 8, 2015)

I'd vote for the Broadway Limited. It had the shorter, albeit more mountainous, route. The PRR flagship New York City-Saint Louis train was the Spirit of St. Louis. There was also the Jeffersonian all-Coach train and the St. Louisan secondary train.

The NYC also had a couple of New York City-Saint Louis trains, but I believe they were much slower. IIRC, they would have been the Knickerbocker and one other (Southwestern Limited?).


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## chakk (Apr 8, 2015)

PaulM said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > B&O also ran the National Ltd. (a very good train) out of New York which went via Cincinnati to St. Louis' Union Station. Amtrak brought it back in the 1970s but it didn't last long.
> ...


Actually, the National Limited (and many other B&O trains) ran to Jersey City, NJ (with a ferry connection across the Hudson River to New York City) until the B&O discontinued all passenger service east of Baltimore on April 27, 1958.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

That's what I was thinking but did not recall the details. Thanks!


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## chakk (Apr 8, 2015)

For most of its lifetime, both the National Limited and the Diplomat bypassed the station stop in Cumberland, MD, taking instead the Patterson Creek Cutoff south of town between Patterson Creek and Rawlings, WV. The Metropolitan Special and a few other local trains (such as the West Virginian), plus all of the passenger trains going northwest of Cumberland on the Pittsburgh Division, did stop at B&O's Cumberland station.



railiner said:


> The B&O's Capitol Limited, was a much weaker contender in the competition, with a longer and slower route. The B&O service to New York (actually Jersey City then ferry or bus connection to the city) ended around 1958. Then trains originated in Baltimore and usually went via Washington on their way to Chicago, rather than using the old original B&O line. Towards the end of B&O service, trains originated in Washington, with an RDC connection to/from Baltimore.
> 
> B&O's National Limited ran from its eastern terminus to Cumberland, but then left the route to Pittsburgh and Chicago for Clarksburg, Parkersburg, Cincinnati, Vincennes, and St. Louis. The Amtrak National Limited took over the route of the former PRR Spirit of St. Louis from New York to St. Louis, and extended on to Kansas City over the Missouri Pacific. For a while, it had a thru section from Washington (as did the Amtrak Broadway Limited); and it also had a thru New York to Los Angeles sleeper that was switched to the Super Chief or Southwest Limited at Kansas City.
> 
> <snip>


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## chakk (Apr 8, 2015)

Indeed, the Cumberland Division of the B&O was a very picturesque, and interesting, ride. A direct quote from the Division's employee timetable for October 1958: "In case of fatal accident on line of road, trains will not be held awaiting Coroner. Bodies will be moved to nearest station or some other place where information can be given the Coroner, and trains should proceed without further delay."


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## MARC Rider (Apr 8, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Yes to all of the above!
> 
> There were three famous Streamliners introduced in 1938 that ran from New York City Westward.. Their consist was all Pullman Sleepers with 2 Diners and Deluxe Lounge/Parlour Cars. They had very Lumited Stops and had a 16 hour Schedule between New York City and Chicago.
> 
> ...


According to my 1968 PRR timetable, the Broadway Limited was still an "all private room" (not even any open section riffraff) at that time. It may have been the Penn Central that added the coaches, but even during the Penn Central era, there were still multiple LD trains on the old PRR main line.

The Broadway Limited didn't actually call at 30th Street in Philadelphia. You had to go up to North Philadelphia and catch it. However, that was the train to take to Chicago if you were traveling from Philadelphia. The Broadway also had a section that ran from Washington and Baltimore to Harrisburg (via York) where it joined the main train.

The Capitol Limited originally ran from Jersey City (or Hoboken or something) with bus connections to/from Manhattan through Philly and Baltimore to Washington before it headed west via the current route. (Though west of Pittsburgh they had a different route than today's.) By the 60's it had been cut back to terminate in Washington. It wasn't as competitive for the New York-Chicago city pair because of the longer route (and need for the bus transfer in New York). However, it was the best way to travel between Washington and Chicago. Plus, it had a dome car (and the Amtrak revival included the dome car, which I got to ride when I took the train in 1989. They didn't get Superliners until 1996 or thereabouts.)


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## jis (Apr 8, 2015)

The B&O Cap traveled on what is CSX today west of Pittsburgh, through Willard. This was the last route followed by Amtrak' Broadway Limited and the by the Three Rivers, with a transfer from what is NS today to CSX near New Castle PA. I remember that a crossover had to be put in, funded by Conrail to enable this since they did not want to handle both the Cap and the Broadway in addition to the LSL on Conrail's Ex-NYC route.


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## railiner (Apr 9, 2015)

chakk said:


> For most of its lifetime, both the National Limited and the Diplomat bypassed the station stop in Cumberland, MD, taking instead the Patterson Creek Cutoff south of town between Patterson Creek and Rawlings, WV. The Metropolitan Special and a few other local trains (such as the West Virginian), plus all of the passenger trains going northwest of Cumberland on the Pittsburgh Division, did stop at B&O's Cumberland station.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing that interesting detail....


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## railiner (Apr 9, 2015)

jis said:


> The B&O Cap traveled on what is CSX today west of Pittsburgh, through Willard. This was the last route followed by Amtrak' Broadway Limited and the by the Three Rivers, with a transfer from what is NS today to CSX near New Castle PA. I remember that a crossover had to be put in, funded by Conrail to enable this since they did not want to handle both the Cap and the Broadway in addition to the LSL on Conrail's Ex-NYC route.


And the original B&O 'Cap" used the NYC-owned Pittsburgh and Lake Erie station and trackage thru the Pittsburgh area. It was much faster than using the B&O's own route thru Pittsburgh which later was only used to the B&O's stub end terminal for Mon Valley commuter trains...

Also....when Amtrak started the current route of the Capitol, they had to finance construction of an interchange between the former B&O line, and the former PRR line just east of the Pittsburgh PRR station. The Capitol then used a segment of the B&O that had not had any passenger service long before the beginning of Amtrak....


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## railiner (Apr 9, 2015)

jis said:


> It was discontinued in 1971 and then a truncated portion of it between Washington and Cincy was introduced as the Shenandoah a couple of years later. AFAIR it died in '79.


Prior to the Washington-Cincinnati, Amtrak Shenandoah, Amtrak did run the West Virginian, and later, Potomac Turbo as far as Parkersburg. It was derisively known to railfans as "Harley's Hornet", in a reference to WVa Congressman Harley Staggers, its powerful political sponsor.


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## railiner (Apr 9, 2015)

MARC Rider said:


> According to my 1968 PRR timetable, the Broadway Limited was still an "all private room" (not even any open section riffraff) at that time. It may have been the Penn Central that added the coaches, but even during the Penn Central era, there were still multiple LD trains on the old PRR main line.


Until the end of the PRR, with the Penn Central merger, the Broadway Limited was one of only three remaining 'All-Pullman' trains...the other two were the IC Panama Limited, which also added a coach section in 1968 called the 'Magnolia Star; and the AT&SF Super Chief, which was combined around the same time, off-season, with the HiLevel coach El Capitan.


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