# Greyhound seats and fleet questions



## Swadian Hardcore

Probably not the best place for Greyhound wuestions, but here goes:

1. I can't find anywhere the seat pitch and width for a standard Greyhound 102DL3. I know they're getting refurbed, but any info works. Please say if it's before or after refurb. I was going to compare it with Amtrak and United Airlines seating.

2. I cannot find exact information on Greyhound's fleet. Do they still have these buses?

96A3

102A3

102D3

MC-9

Eagle 15

Anywhere I can find more info? CPTDB does not provide enough.


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## lo2e

I don't have an answer for #1, but for #2 I googled "Greyhound bus fleet" and got this page: http://www.greyhound.com/en/about/factsandfigures.aspx

So I guess the answer is at least yes on the 102D3, not sure about the others. That page I linked says that the majority of the fleet are the ones listed but doesn't say they are exclusive.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Probably not the best place for Greyhound wuestions, but here goes:
> 
> 1. I can't find anywhere the seat pitch and width for a standard Greyhound 102DL3. I know they're getting refurbed, but any info works. Please say if it's before or after refurb. I was going to compare it with Amtrak and United Airlines seating.
> 
> 2. I cannot find exact information on Greyhound's fleet. Do they still have these buses?
> 
> 96A3
> 
> 102A3
> 
> 102D3
> 
> MC-9
> 
> Eagle 15
> 
> Anywhere I can find more info? CPTDB does not provide enough.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

lo2e said:


> I don't have an answer for #1, but for #2 I googled "Greyhound bus fleet" and got this page: http://www.greyhound...andfigures.aspx
> 
> So I guess the answer is at least yes on the 102D3, not sure about the others. That page I linked says that the majority of the fleet are the ones listed but doesn't say they are exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not the best place for Greyhound questions, but here goes:
> 
> 1. I can't find anywhere the seat pitch and width for a standard Greyhound 102DL3. I know they're getting refurbed, but any info works. Please say if it's before or after refurb. I was going to compare it with Amtrak and United Airlines seating.
> 
> 2. I cannot find exact information on Greyhound's fleet. Do they still have these buses?
> 
> 96A3
> 
> 102A3
> 
> 102D3
> 
> MC-9
> 
> Eagle 15
> 
> Anywhere I can find more info? CPTDB does not provide enough.
Click to expand...

I know that page. The big problem is that they's don't say all the buses. They don't even talk about the 102D3, which I am pretty sure is still in service. Also, I think the MC-12 is still in service as well.


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## railiner

Okay, in answer to your question on Greyhound seat pitch and width....

Today I took a tape measure to Prevost X3 number 86010. The seats are approximately 18 inches wide. That is for the cushion. If you measure the space for the pair from the wall to the outer edge of the armrest on the aisle, the total width is about 39 inches. They are 'pitched' approximately 33.5 - 34 inches apart.

Hope that answers your question....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> lo2e said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have an answer for #1, but for #2 I googled "Greyhound bus fleet" and got this page: http://www.greyhound...andfigures.aspx
> 
> So I guess the answer is at least yes on the 102D3, not sure about the others. That page I linked says that the majority of the fleet are the ones listed but doesn't say they are exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not the best place for Greyhound questions, but here goes:
> 
> 1. I can't find anywhere the seat pitch and width for a standard Greyhound 102DL3. I know they're getting refurbed, but any info works. Please say if it's before or after refurb. I was going to compare it with Amtrak and United Airlines seating.
> 
> 2. I cannot find exact information on Greyhound's fleet. Do they still have these buses?
> 
> 96A3
> 
> 102A3
> 
> 102D3
> 
> MC-9
> 
> Eagle 15
> 
> Anywhere I can find more info? CPTDB does not provide enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know that page. The big problem is that they's don't say all the buses. They don't even talk about the 102D3, which I am pretty sure is still in service. Also, I think the MC-12 is still in service as well.
Click to expand...

The fleet currently consists of MCI MC-12's, 102D3's, 102DL3's, D4505's, G4500's, and Prevost X-3's. Eagles, MC-9's, and other old MCI's are gone. I have heard they have a handful of Van Hools, but have never seen any in a long while. And GLC, up in Canada has a few other 'orphans' like Prevost H3-45's, XL II's, and MCI E4500's.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Okay, in answer to your question on Greyhound seat pitch and width....
> 
> Today I took a tape measure to Prevost X3 number 86010. The seats are approximately 18 inches wide. That is for the cushion. If you measure the space for the pair from the wall to the outer edge of the armrest on the aisle, the total width is about 39 inches. They are 'pitched' approximately 33.5 - 34 inches apart.
> 
> Hope that answers your question....


Oh, wow, I never saw this. Great to know.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lo2e said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have an answer for #1, but for #2 I googled "Greyhound bus fleet" and got this page: http://www.greyhound...andfigures.aspx
> 
> So I guess the answer is at least yes on the 102D3, not sure about the others. That page I linked says that the majority of the fleet are the ones listed but doesn't say they are exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not the best place for Greyhound questions, but here goes:
> 
> 1. I can't find anywhere the seat pitch and width for a standard Greyhound 102DL3. I know they're getting refurbed, but any info works. Please say if it's before or after refurb. I was going to compare it with Amtrak and United Airlines seating.
> 
> 2. I cannot find exact information on Greyhound's fleet. Do they still have these buses?
> 
> 96A3
> 
> 102A3
> 
> 102D3
> 
> MC-9
> 
> Eagle 15
> 
> Anywhere I can find more info? CPTDB does not provide enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know that page. The big problem is that they's don't say all the buses. They don't even talk about the 102D3, which I am pretty sure is still in service. Also, I think the MC-12 is still in service as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fleet currently consists of MCI MC-12's, 102D3's, 102DL3's, D4505's, G4500's, and Prevost X-3's. Eagles, MC-9's, and other old MCI's are gone. I have heard they have a handful of Van Hools, but have never seen any in a long while. And GLC, up in Canada has a few other 'orphans' like Prevost H3-45's, XL II's, and MCI E4500's.
Click to expand...

Right now it looks like the MC-12s are either sold or in storage and the same for the 102D3s. Some have been transferred to Canada. Don't know why they retired the latter so quickly. I just checked some FMCSA information on Greyhound, and that confirms that those buses are gone. Van Hools are probably gone too, not sure but it's fine because I never liked them on other companies.


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## railiner

The MC-12's, a few anyway, are still around. Saw them this week in NYC. More than one of the New York drivers loves driving them over the newer equipment.

In the main Amtrak category, we discussed Bangor and Aroostook RR(Highway Division) coaches. This would be a better place, as some folks get disgruntled over there when buses are discussed....

Bangor and Aroostook had deeper pockets than many similar bus lines of like size, so was able to afford the latest equipment as they came to market. They didn't really have that many different types....Mostly all GMC, until GMC exited the market, than MCI.

It was always a treat working in the Port Authority back then to see the "exotic" pool partner buses that Greyhound would bring in from far corners of the country, when they really operated an extensive nationwide route network. The PD4501 Scenicruiser's were very seldom used on any but all-Greyhound routes. Greyhound did use them on a few pool routes, where that companies operators received special training and qualification on their operation. In most cases, 'regular' 35 foot GMC's were used of different generations....

Besides the uniqueness of the 4501's, there was no comparable bus for the pool partners to reciprocate with. In the rare cases I mentioned, They would use the 4501's on one pool and use the other carriers equipment on another pool to balance the mileage....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey railiner, have you spotted any 102D3s in NYD? I can't confirm if they're gone or not but I've never seen any refurbished ones and haven't ridden one in quite some time.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey railiner, have you spotted any 102D3s in NYD? I can't confirm if they're gone or not but I've never seen any refurbished ones and haven't ridden one in quite some time.


There were two of them (1100 series) parked in Academy's Lot No. 3 in Hoboken this morning. Unrefurbished. I don't think I've ever seen a refurbished one...


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey railiner, have you spotted any 102D3s in NYD? I can't confirm if they're gone or not but I've never seen any refurbished ones and haven't ridden one in quite some time.
> 
> 
> 
> There were two of them (1100 series) parked in Academy's Lot No. 3 in Hoboken this morning. Unrefurbished. I don't think I've ever seen a refurbished one...
Click to expand...

Academy's lot? Are they being sold to Academy? Why won't Greyhound refurbish some of them? They are probably better for the less popular routes.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey railiner, have you spotted any 102D3s in NYD? I can't confirm if they're gone or not but I've never seen any refurbished ones and haven't ridden one in quite some time.
> 
> 
> 
> There were two of them (1100 series) parked in Academy's Lot No. 3 in Hoboken this morning. Unrefurbished. I don't think I've ever seen a refurbished one...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Academy's lot? Are they being sold to Academy? Why won't Greyhound refurbish some of them? They are probably better for the less popular routes.
Click to expand...

Greyhound and Trailways of New York rent parking space at Academy's Hoboken lot. Trailways has for many years, Greyhound more recently, since they lost their lease to the 29th Street and 30th Street lots in NYC. Academy is not buying them.

As for Greyhound's reasoning, I cannot answer. I can only speculate that they don't want to invest anymore in the older, smaller buses in their fleet, especially if they have no wheelchair lift....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey railiner, have you spotted any 102D3s in NYD? I can't confirm if they're gone or not but I've never seen any refurbished ones and haven't ridden one in quite some time.
> 
> 
> 
> There were two of them (1100 series) parked in Academy's Lot No. 3 in Hoboken this morning. Unrefurbished. I don't think I've ever seen a refurbished one...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Academy's lot? Are they being sold to Academy? Why won't Greyhound refurbish some of them? They are probably better for the less popular routes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greyhound and Trailways of New York rent parking space at Academy's Hoboken lot. Trailways has for many years, Greyhound more recently, since they lost their lease to the 29th Street and 30th Street lots in NYC. Academy is not buying them.
> 
> As for Greyhound's reasoning, I cannot answer. I can only speculate that they don't want to invest anymore in the older, smaller buses in their fleet, especially if they have no wheelchair lift....
Click to expand...

I know you don't know, but they're refurbishing the 102DL3, so why not the 102D3? Besides, Greyhound coaches are far newer than Amtrak equipment. Even the MC-12s are pretty new compared to Amfleets/Superliners or, OMG, the Heritage cars.

New question just popped up, does GLI still use the G4100?


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## railiner

Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.

I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.

Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.
> 
> I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....


How did you get to share GLi's dispatch booth?

I agree about the G-series, my worst Greyhound ride was on a G4500.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.
> 
> I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get to share GLi's dispatch booth?
> 
> I agree about the G-series, my worst Greyhound ride was on a G4500.
Click to expand...

When Adirondack started pooling with GL, we moved into their booth along with Peter Pan. A few years ago, we moved our operations back to the South Wing.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.
> 
> I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get to share GLi's dispatch booth?
> 
> I agree about the G-series, my worst Greyhound ride was on a G4500.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When Adirondack started pooling with GL, we moved into their booth along with Peter Pan. A few years ago, we moved our operations back to the South Wing.
Click to expand...

Oh, you work for ADI! You guys are great, I've taken ADI before, I even got on a MC-9 once recently, do you guys still have MC-9s?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.
> 
> I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get to share GLi's dispatch booth?
> 
> I agree about the G-series, my worst Greyhound ride was on a G4500.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When Adirondack started pooling with GL, we moved into their booth along with Peter Pan. A few years ago, we moved our operations back to the South Wing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, you work for ADI! You guys are great, I've taken ADI before, I even got on a MC-9 once recently, do you guys still have MC-9s?
Click to expand...

Thanks, for the compliment.

I wish we still had MC-9's, but we sold our last one over ten years ago...miss the 'stick time', except when stuck in Lincoln Tunnel traffic, that is. :lol:

By the way, we abbreviate the carrier code as "ADT"......


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad passenger cars are built more substantially than buses, and can last two to three times as long, or even longer as you noted, than buses do.
> 
> I have not seen any G4100's in years here, but did see a G4500 recently. When we were sharing GL's dispatch booth, I could access their BOSS computers and see what was where, but no longer have that ability....only see some of what passes thru, or is parked in Hoboken.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad the G's are mostly gone, at least from this part of the country....
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get to share GLi's dispatch booth?
> 
> I agree about the G-series, my worst Greyhound ride was on a G4500.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When Adirondack started pooling with GL, we moved into their booth along with Peter Pan. A few years ago, we moved our operations back to the South Wing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, you work for ADI! You guys are great, I've taken ADI before, I even got on a MC-9 once recently, do you guys still have MC-9s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, for the compliment.
> 
> I wish we still had MC-9's, but we sold our last one over ten years ago...miss the 'stick time', except when stuck in Lincoln Tunnel traffic, that is. :lol:
> 
> By the way, we abbreviate the carrier code as "ADT"......
Click to expand...

Wait, I had an ADT bus but it borke down, so I got transferred to a MC-9 with Trailways on the side. If not ADT, who did it belong to?


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## Swadian Hardcore

New question: Why did Greyhound cancel some of its LD services? Some of them were very popular but still got cancelled.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> New question: Why did Greyhound cancel some of its LD services? Some of them were very popular but still got cancelled.


A very good question. Part of it may be in what I commented on in the 'Cross-Country' thread....A few years ago, GL's CEO in their company newspaper stated that Greyhond was basically re-inventing themselves from a long distance carrier to concentrate on 300-400 mile maximum trips radiating from their largest markets.

Greyhound has abandoned some very popular routes that took them years to build.

A can imagine the great Greyhound founders spinning in their graves at what became of their once proud American icon.... :angry2:


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Why did Greyhound cancel some of its LD services? Some of them were very popular but still got cancelled.
> 
> 
> 
> A very good question. Part of it may be in what I commented on in the 'Cross-Country' thread....A few years ago, GL's CEO in their company newspaper stated that Greyhond was basically re-inventing themselves from a long distance carrier to concentrate on 300-400 mile maximum trips radiating from their largest markets.
> 
> Greyhound has abandoned some very popular routes that took them years to build.
> 
> A can imagine the great Greyhound founders spinning in their graves at what became of their once proud American icon.... :angry2:
Click to expand...

Here is where I don't udnerstand. So the CEO is do what he said he would do. But those runs were popular so he still shouldn't have done it, IMO. After all, he's probably not doing it just to fulfill his statement, there are other reasons too.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Why did Greyhound cancel some of its LD services? Some of them were very popular but still got cancelled.
> 
> 
> 
> A very good question. Part of it may be in what I commented on in the 'Cross-Country' thread....A few years ago, GL's CEO in their company newspaper stated that Greyhond was basically re-inventing themselves from a long distance carrier to concentrate on 300-400 mile maximum trips radiating from their largest markets.
> 
> Greyhound has abandoned some very popular routes that took them years to build.
> 
> A can imagine the great Greyhound founders spinning in their graves at what became of their once proud American icon.... :angry2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here is where I don't udnerstand. So the CEO is do what he said he would do. But those runs were popular so he still shouldn't have done it, IMO. After all, he's probably not doing it just to fulfill his statement, there are other reasons too.
Click to expand...

As I don't speak for GLI, I cannot answer your question. From what I have heard, they are not actively going after long haul business, as the economics don't yield what the shorter hauls do. For example....suppose they could fill a bus in NYC with a solid load of passengers going all the way to Los Angeles. At first glance, that would seem good, right? But to get that business, they would have to offer a fare low enough to lure passengers from low cost air carriers, in most cases it would take a very low fare to do that. So they have all the terminal, driver, fuel, and other expenses to pay to get that bus with 50 passengers across the country.

The fare to go 300-400 miles would be almost as high as the coast to coast fare, with good yield management in place, with a much lower cost of operation, hence a much greater profit. At least that's a theory.....in practice, who knows?

Why don't you pose some of your questions directly to GLI corporate offices, and see if they give you any explanation?


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Why did Greyhound cancel some of its LD services? Some of them were very popular but still got cancelled.
> 
> 
> 
> A very good question. Part of it may be in what I commented on in the 'Cross-Country' thread....A few years ago, GL's CEO in their company newspaper stated that Greyhond was basically re-inventing themselves from a long distance carrier to concentrate on 300-400 mile maximum trips radiating from their largest markets.
> 
> Greyhound has abandoned some very popular routes that took them years to build.
> 
> A can imagine the great Greyhound founders spinning in their graves at what became of their once proud American icon.... :angry2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here is where I don't udnerstand. So the CEO is do what he said he would do. But those runs were popular so he still shouldn't have done it, IMO. After all, he's probably not doing it just to fulfill his statement, there are other reasons too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I don't speak for GLI, I cannot answer your question. From what I have heard, they are not actively going after long haul business, as the economics don't yield what the shorter hauls do. For example....suppose they could fill a bus in NYC with a solid load of passengers going all the way to Los Angeles. At first glance, that would seem good, right? But to get that business, they would have to offer a fare low enough to lure passengers from low cost air carriers, in most cases it would take a very low fare to do that. So they have all the terminal, driver, fuel, and other expenses to pay to get that bus with 50 passengers across the country.
> 
> The fare to go 300-400 miles would be almost as high as the coast to coast fare, with good yield management in place, with a much lower cost of operation, hence a much greater profit. At least that's a theory.....in practice, who knows?
> 
> *Why don't you pose some of your questions directly to GLI corporate offices, and see if they give you any explanation?*
Click to expand...

i got no answer.


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## Swadian Hardcore

New question: Is there any way to see what equipment Greyhound will use for a run? Right now I just go to the station and bet it's not a G4500.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> New question: Is there any way to see what equipment Greyhound will use for a run? Right now I just go to the station and bet it's not a G4500.


It would depend somewhat on where you were going, but in general from New York it's most likely going to be a Prevost X-3, or a refurbed MCI DL-3. Equipment are grouped in numbered "pools", that carry all the required licenses and permits for the territory they will operate. The maintenance supervisor will select any convenient bus from the proper pool to fulfill each schedule. They are not on a 'loop type' pool like was used at one time, where buses were assigned a 'home garage', and followed a specific rotation of schedules until returning to their home garages for maintenance. Back then, you knew in advance which buses were likely to show up. Now it is more random.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Is there any way to see what equipment Greyhound will use for a run? Right now I just go to the station and bet it's not a G4500.
> 
> 
> 
> It would depend somewhat on where you were going, but in general from New York it's most likely going to be a Prevost X-3, or a refurbed MCI DL-3. Equipment are grouped in numbered "pools", that carry all the required licenses and permits for the territory they will operate. The maintenance supervisor will select any convenient bus from the proper pool to fulfill each schedule. They are not on a 'loop type' pool like was used at one time, where buses were assigned a 'home garage', and followed a specific rotation of schedules until returning to their home garages for maintenance. Back then, you knew in advance which buses were likely to show up. Now it is more random.
Click to expand...

Is there any way to know which buses go in what pool?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Is there any way to see what equipment Greyhound will use for a run? Right now I just go to the station and bet it's not a G4500.
> 
> 
> 
> It would depend somewhat on where you were going, but in general from New York it's most likely going to be a Prevost X-3, or a refurbed MCI DL-3. Equipment are grouped in numbered "pools", that carry all the required licenses and permits for the territory they will operate. The maintenance supervisor will select any convenient bus from the proper pool to fulfill each schedule. They are not on a 'loop type' pool like was used at one time, where buses were assigned a 'home garage', and followed a specific rotation of schedules until returning to their home garages for maintenance. Back then, you knew in advance which buses were likely to show up. Now it is more random.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there any way to know which buses go in what pool?
Click to expand...

Sure, if you have access to a GL 'BOSS' computer terminal, that is.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh, well, I'm not a hacker, so I guess it's just too bad.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now that I think of it, Greyhound may have axed LD service because each bus needed too many permits in one pool, making things hard to manage and costing more money. I do wonder, how much does it cost for a operating license?


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, well, does anybody know where the G4500s and D4505s are? I can't access their dispatch computers but at least I can get some spotter reports. I usually see 102DL3s all the time, not much else.

Thanks!


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now that I think of it, Greyhound may have axed LD service because each bus needed too many permits in one pool, making things hard to manage and costing more money. I do wonder, how much does it cost for a operating license?


On the contrary, assigning buses to pools reduces licensing costs, as only the number of buses required, plus a few spares are licensed to fulfill schedule requirements.

As to costs, I cannot anwer.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OK, well, does anybody know where the G4500s and D4505s are? I can't access their dispatch computers but at least I can get some spotter reports. I usually see 102DL3s all the time, not much else.
> 
> Thanks!


I don't know where "Praven" is located, but here in The City, we see equally DL3's, and X-3's, and occasionly MC-12's, G4500's, D4505's, or 102D's, although the latter mentioned are seen less and less. I have heard the G's are mostly 'out west' (thank goodness)....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, well, does anybody know where the G4500s and D4505s are? I can't access their dispatch computers but at least I can get some spotter reports. I usually see 102DL3s all the time, not much else.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know where "Praven" is located, but here in The City, we see equally DL3's, and X-3's, and occasionly MC-12's, G4500's, D4505's, or 102D's, although the latter mentioned are seen less and less. I have heard the G's are mostly 'out west' (thank goodness)....
Click to expand...

Thanks for trying to help. Unfortunately I still need to know about other areas, since I mainly ride buses where trains are too expensive or poorly timed, but anyway, I've also wondered if Greyhound has a Northern Division. Apparently they don't. If so, why not?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, well, does anybody know where the G4500s and D4505s are? I can't access their dispatch computers but at least I can get some spotter reports. I usually see 102DL3s all the time, not much else.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know where "Praven" is located, but here in The City, we see equally DL3's, and X-3's, and occasionly MC-12's, G4500's, D4505's, or 102D's, although the latter mentioned are seen less and less. I have heard the G's are mostly 'out west' (thank goodness)....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for trying to help. Unfortunately I still need to know about other areas, since I mainly ride buses where trains are too expensive or poorly timed, but anyway, I've also wondered if Greyhound has a Northern Division. Apparently they don't. If so, why not?
Click to expand...

Not sure just what you mean by 'Northern Division'....

Greyhound Lines, Inc., has been a single 'division', since the last consolidation of Greyhound Lines East, and Greyhound Lines West, in the mid 1970's. Prior to that were four...Eastern, Southern, Central, and Western, and prior to that many more.....

I suppose you could consider Greyhound Lines of Canada its 'northern division', but in reality, a separate company with a common owner (FirstGroup).


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Just to clarify. D4500's are the older buses.

D4505 *note the 05* is a new bus type.The D4505's have the G4500 style headlights, and the J4500 style running lights on the top cap. I got to ride one of them recently on my return from New Orleans to Lafayette, It was a nice ride. They ride better than the older D4500 units, which I find a bit harsh. Although GLI doesnt tend to maintain their equipment very well. I recently saw one of their 2009 Prevost X-3 units, and it looked like hell.

Along with the Prevost X-3's that GLI is using now. I got to ride one of these from Binghamton NY, to Syracuse to catch the LSL after visiting my girlfriend. The X-3 rode well, but the seats werent all that comfortable, and after speaking with the driver, he didnt find the seats comfortable either. Although I guess having gotten used to the Amtrak seats, no bus will ever be that comfy.

An updated fleet for Greyhound are the D4500's *older units, currently being refurbed by GLI with the new paint scheme and seats* G4500's *blech, I hate these* , D4505 *new buses*, Prevost X-3 *new buses*.

The G4500's will be replaced as well, as there have been issues with that series. Fires and whatnot. Every driver that I know personally hates the G models. They only drive them because they have to. 

They are slowly replacing the fleet with the newer buses. The new D4505's are going to replace the older D4500 units.

Here in Lafayette, Im seeing more and more of the D4505's and Prevost X-3's as they phase out the older units.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Just to clarify. D4500's are the older buses.
> 
> D4505 *note the 05* is a new bus type.The D4505's have the G4500 style headlights, and the J4500 style running lights on the top cap. I got to ride one of them recently on my return from New Orleans to Lafayette, It was a nice ride. They ride better than the older D4500 units, which I find a bit harsh. Although GLI doesnt tend to maintain their equipment very well. I recently saw one of their 2009 Prevost X-3 units, and it looked like hell.
> 
> Along with the Prevost X-3's that GLI is using now. I got to ride one of these from Binghamton NY, to Syracuse to catch the LSL after visiting my girlfriend. The X-3 rode well, but the seats werent all that comfortable, and after speaking with the driver, he didnt find the seats comfortable either. Although I guess having gotten used to the Amtrak seats, no bus will ever be that comfy.
> 
> An updated fleet for Greyhound are the D4500's *older units, currently being refurbed by GLI with the new paint scheme and seats* G4500's *blech, I hate these* , D4505 *new buses*, Prevost X-3 *new buses*.
> 
> The G4500's will be replaced as well, as there have been issues with that series. Fires and whatnot. Every driver that I know personally hates the G models. They only drive them because they have to.
> 
> They are slowly replacing the fleet with the newer buses. The new D4505's are going to replace the older D4500 units.
> 
> Here in Lafayette, Im seeing more and more of the D4505's and Prevost X-3's as they phase out the older units.


I knew that the D4500s are the older buses. They are simply reclassified 102DL3s. The 102DL3/D4500s are far from getting retired, Greyhound's refurbishing them so they will probably stay for at least six more years. The MC-12s and 102D3s are the ones getting retired. Personnaly I don't like the G4500 or X3-45, but the other guys are all OK or great. Love the D4505s.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.

The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.

Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.
> 
> The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.
> 
> Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.


About the J4500, it's apparently designed as a tour bus, not fr line-haul. I also prefer the D4505, I like the more rounded look, especially at the top of the windshield.

Then the H3-45, I've never really liked Prevosts, mainly for the big "glass box" at the front with no bar at the top. Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.

But anyway, I've really wanted to know why others hate the G4500. Everybody that knows about American buses seems to hate the G4500. I don't like it for the faulty mechanisms and poor ride quality. What about you guys?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.
> 
> The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.
> 
> Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> About the J4500, it's apparently designed as a tour bus, not fr line-haul. I also prefer the D4505, I like the more rounded look, especially at the top of the windshield.
> 
> Then the H3-45, I've never really liked Prevosts, mainly for the big "glass box" at the front with no bar at the top. Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.
> 
> But anyway, I've really wanted to know why others hate the G4500. Everybody that knows about American buses seems to hate the G4500. I don't like it for the faulty mechanisms and poor ride quality. What about you guys?
Click to expand...

The 'G' models were not designed in house by MCI, but were a derivative of Mexican builder Dina's Viaggio bus, from that era when Dina briefly owned MCI...

Most of us think they are junk.... a low cost attempt to offer a 'Euro-style' coach.

As for H-3 versus X-3 Prevost's....try to stuff the baggage and 'kitchen sinks', that college students bring with them when starting the new school year in an X-3's two shallow bays....it is mission, impossible. Often have to depart with empty seats, as there is simply no more room for baggage below. From a driver's standpoint, I will say that the lower X-3 handles somewhat better. And regarding the J4500's....again from a driver's standpoint, never felt 'at home' behind the wheel in those, and the ones my company purchased have never been popular with the driver's....we even prefer the much older 102D's over them,

As for seating comfort....the newest seats are designed for crash 'containment', with or without seatbelt use, derived from those used in school buses. And the seat power outlets when located at the bottom preclude you from sliding your legs very much forward, (you hit your shins). So all in all less comfortable than the older model seats.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.

The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.

As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.

Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.


----------



## railiner

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.
> 
> The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.
> 
> As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.


Your best chance of getting an H-3 between Syracuse and Binghamton would be on a thru trip between Toronto and New York that is operated by New York Trailways. They are assigned to the first section most of the time. This would be the 13:25 departure from Binghamton to Syracuse, and the 15:15 departure from Syracuse. You may also get one on the Greyhound 19:45 departure from Syracuse, as that trip is assigned a Trailways pool bus normally.....

There are some other trips that may get one, but a less likely chance. If there are two or more sections on the trip, the thru bus may bypass Binghamton, and anything else, such as a J4500, or an XL-II may operate it...


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Thanks for the tips on the H3-45 scheduling railiner. Im going to keep that in mind.  Im going to write those down for future bus schedulings!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.
> 
> The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.
> 
> Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> About the J4500, it's apparently designed as a tour bus, not fr line-haul. I also prefer the D4505, I like the more rounded look, especially at the top of the windshield.
> 
> Then the H3-45, I've never really liked Prevosts, mainly for the big "glass box" at the front with no bar at the top. Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.
> 
> But anyway, I've really wanted to know why others hate the G4500. Everybody that knows about American buses seems to hate the G4500. I don't like it for the faulty mechanisms and poor ride quality. What about you guys?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 'G' models were not designed in house by MCI, but were a derivative of Mexican builder Dina's Viaggio bus, from that era when Dina briefly owned MCI...
> 
> Most of us think they are junk.... a low cost attempt to offer a 'Euro-style' coach.
> 
> As for H-3 versus X-3 Prevost's....try to stuff the baggage and 'kitchen sinks', that college students bring with them when starting the new school year in an X-3's two shallow bays....it is mission, impossible. Often have to depart with empty seats, as there is simply no more room for baggage below. From a driver's standpoint, I will say that the lower X-3 handles somewhat better. And regarding the J4500's....again from a driver's standpoint, never felt 'at home' behind the wheel in those, and the ones my company purchased have never been popular with the driver's....we even prefer the much older 102D's over them,
> 
> As for seating comfort....the newest seats are designed for crash 'containment', with or without seatbelt use, derived from those used in school buses. And the seat power outlets when located at the bottom preclude you from sliding your legs very much forward, (you hit your shins). So all in all less comfortable than the older model seats.
Click to expand...

Oh, so that's how the G4500 came to be. I saw a Nor Cal Bus Fans newsletter saying it was actually a D-series with the look of a Renaissance. It lloks like most MCI buses have big luggage bays, though, at least in my expierience.



Amtrak Cajun said:


> Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.
> 
> The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.
> 
> As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.


I do like the H3-40s better than the other foreign buses. It's my favourite foreign bus, beating the X3-45, C2045, TD925, Viaggio, or whatever. Though I still don't like the "glass box."

What would you say is a driver's favourite bus?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.
> 
> The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.
> 
> Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> About the J4500, it's apparently designed as a tour bus, not fr line-haul. I also prefer the D4505, I like the more rounded look, especially at the top of the windshield.
> 
> Then the H3-45, I've never really liked Prevosts, mainly for the big "glass box" at the front with no bar at the top. Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.
> 
> But anyway, I've really wanted to know why others hate the G4500. Everybody that knows about American buses seems to hate the G4500. I don't like it for the faulty mechanisms and poor ride quality. What about you guys?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 'G' models were not designed in house by MCI, but were a derivative of Mexican builder Dina's Viaggio bus, from that era when Dina briefly owned MCI...
> 
> Most of us think they are junk.... a low cost attempt to offer a 'Euro-style' coach.
> 
> As for H-3 versus X-3 Prevost's....try to stuff the baggage and 'kitchen sinks', that college students bring with them when starting the new school year in an X-3's two shallow bays....it is mission, impossible. Often have to depart with empty seats, as there is simply no more room for baggage below. From a driver's standpoint, I will say that the lower X-3 handles somewhat better. And regarding the J4500's....again from a driver's standpoint, never felt 'at home' behind the wheel in those, and the ones my company purchased have never been popular with the driver's....we even prefer the much older 102D's over them,
> 
> As for seating comfort....the newest seats are designed for crash 'containment', with or without seatbelt use, derived from those used in school buses. And the seat power outlets when located at the bottom preclude you from sliding your legs very much forward, (you hit your shins). So all in all less comfortable than the older model seats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so that's how the G4500 came to be. I saw a Nor Cal Bus Fans newsletter saying it was actually a D-series with the look of a Renaissance. It lloks like most MCI buses have big luggage bays, though, at least in my expierience.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.
> 
> The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.
> 
> As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do like the H3-40s better than the other foreign buses. It's my favourite foreign bus, beating the X3-45, C2045, TD925, Viaggio, or whatever. Though I still don't like the "glass box."
> 
> What would you say is a driver's favourite bus?
Click to expand...

If you mean currently, I think the X-3's or its predecessor, the XL-II. If you mean of all time, then it would easily be a GMC PD 4106. At least IMHO.....


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

You know, I tend to like Prevost buses over MCI *except for the New D4505*.

The first time I ever rode a Prevost bus was when I was going to see my girlfriend in Pennsylvania back in 2007. I took Greyhound the whole way up to Pennsylvania. Well, when we hit Williamsport, I ended up riding on a Susquehanna Trailways Prevost Le Mirage XL, one of the older ones. That thing rode like butter compared to the MCI D and G models I had up until that point, I got to ride the same bus to Harrisburg, switching back over to GLI equipment there.

Thats where my love for Prevost started. The new X3-45 pretty much gave me the same ride experience. I hope Greyhound buys more of the X3's, they are quite nice.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see Greyhound get the J4500's, those would look awesome in the new paint scheme. Also, Id like to see the Prevost H3-45's like New York Trailways has. I know Im dreaming on the J and H3 models, but oh well.
> 
> The D4505's do ride very nicely. I enjoyed my trip back from New Orleans to Lafayette on it. Another thing I noticed between the D4505 and the D4500 is that the newer buses have much better headlights, they are bigger and cast more light. The driver said he prefers the D4505 because they can see farther down the lane than with the smaller square headlights.
> 
> Im gonna make you laugh, the driver and I were discussing bus models, and comparisons. He was like, hey, do you work for GLI? I said no, Im just an avid train and bus fan. He says, you should hire on as a dispatcher, you know your models quite well. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> About the J4500, it's apparently designed as a tour bus, not fr line-haul. I also prefer the D4505, I like the more rounded look, especially at the top of the windshield.
> 
> Then the H3-45, I've never really liked Prevosts, mainly for the big "glass box" at the front with no bar at the top. Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.
> 
> But anyway, I've really wanted to know why others hate the G4500. Everybody that knows about American buses seems to hate the G4500. I don't like it for the faulty mechanisms and poor ride quality. What about you guys?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 'G' models were not designed in house by MCI, but were a derivative of Mexican builder Dina's Viaggio bus, from that era when Dina briefly owned MCI...
> 
> Most of us think they are junk.... a low cost attempt to offer a 'Euro-style' coach.
> 
> As for H-3 versus X-3 Prevost's....try to stuff the baggage and 'kitchen sinks', that college students bring with them when starting the new school year in an X-3's two shallow bays....it is mission, impossible. Often have to depart with empty seats, as there is simply no more room for baggage below. From a driver's standpoint, I will say that the lower X-3 handles somewhat better. And regarding the J4500's....again from a driver's standpoint, never felt 'at home' behind the wheel in those, and the ones my company purchased have never been popular with the driver's....we even prefer the much older 102D's over them,
> 
> As for seating comfort....the newest seats are designed for crash 'containment', with or without seatbelt use, derived from those used in school buses. And the seat power outlets when located at the bottom preclude you from sliding your legs very much forward, (you hit your shins). So all in all less comfortable than the older model seats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so that's how the G4500 came to be. I saw a Nor Cal Bus Fans newsletter saying it was actually a D-series with the look of a Renaissance. It lloks like most MCI buses have big luggage bays, though, at least in my expierience.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.
> 
> The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.
> 
> As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do like the H3-40s better than the other foreign buses. It's my favourite foreign bus, beating the X3-45, C2045, TD925, Viaggio, or whatever. Though I still don't like the "glass box."
> 
> What would you say is a driver's favourite bus?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you mean currently, I think the X-3's or its predecessor, the XL-II. If you mean of all time, then it would easily be a GMC PD 4106. At least IMHO.....
Click to expand...

That makes me remember, what's the difference between a PD-4104 and a PD-4106?

Personally, I've never been a career bus driver, but as a passenger, I can comfortably say that my top ten favourites are all MCI, Eagle, or GM models.  On MCI buses I really like the bar at the top of the windshield, I don't like light shining directly from the front. Really useful on the long runs I'm accustomed to where trains don't operate.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, well, does anybody know where the G4500s and D4505s are? I can't access their dispatch computers but at least I can get some spotter reports. I usually see 102DL3s all the time, not much else.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know where "Praven" is located, but here in The City, we see equally DL3's, and X-3's, and occasionly MC-12's, G4500's, D4505's, or 102D's, although the latter mentioned are seen less and less. I have heard the G's are mostly 'out west' (thank goodness)....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for trying to help. Unfortunately I still need to know about other areas, since I mainly ride buses where trains are too expensive or poorly timed, but anyway, I've also wondered if Greyhound has a Northern Division. Apparently they don't. If so, why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure just what you mean by 'Northern Division'....
> 
> Greyhound Lines, Inc., has been a single 'division', since the last consolidation of Greyhound Lines East, and Greyhound Lines West, in the mid 1970's. Prior to that were four...Eastern, Southern, Central, and Western, and prior to that many more.....
> 
> I suppose you could consider Greyhound Lines of Canada its 'northern division', but in reality, a separate company with a common owner (FirstGroup).
Click to expand...

Argh, I totally did not see this! I meant the 1960 divisions. Sorry about that.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 'G' models were not designed in house by MCI, but were a derivative of Mexican builder Dina's Viaggio bus, from that era when Dina briefly owned MCI...
> 
> Most of us think they are junk.... a low cost attempt to offer a 'Euro-style' coach.
> 
> As for H-3 versus X-3 Prevost's....try to stuff the baggage and 'kitchen sinks', that college students bring with them when starting the new school year in an X-3's two shallow bays....it is mission, impossible. Often have to depart with empty seats, as there is simply no more room for baggage below. From a driver's standpoint, I will say that the lower X-3 handles somewhat better. And regarding the J4500's....again from a driver's standpoint, never felt 'at home' behind the wheel in those, and the ones my company purchased have never been popular with the driver's....we even prefer the much older 102D's over them,
> 
> As for seating comfort....the newest seats are designed for crash 'containment', with or without seatbelt use, derived from those used in school buses. And the seat power outlets when located at the bottom preclude you from sliding your legs very much forward, (you hit your shins). So all in all less comfortable than the older model seats.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so that's how the G4500 came to be. I saw a Nor Cal Bus Fans newsletter saying it was actually a D-series with the look of a Renaissance. It lloks like most MCI buses have big luggage bays, though, at least in my expierience.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive seen a number of engine fires reported with the G4500, due to as railiner stated, faulty electronics. The G models rode rough, and the hard seats didnt help either.
> 
> The H3's luggage bays are like houses compared to the X-3's haha. In fact, when I was in Binghamton ready for departure on the X-3, an NY Trailways bus pulled up next to us, and the luggage bays had as much baggage as ours, but more room to store them neatly.
> 
> As far as for the J4500's, yeah, I realize that they arent built for line run duty, but Peter Pan uses them for their runs. So they cant be too bad.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to ride one of the H3-45's when I move to Syracuse. Ill be going back and forth between there and Binghamton, where my girlfriend picks me up at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do like the H3-40s better than the other foreign buses. It's my favourite foreign bus, beating the X3-45, C2045, TD925, Viaggio, or whatever. Though I still don't like the "glass box."
> 
> What would you say is a driver's favourite bus?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you mean currently, I think the X-3's or its predecessor, the XL-II. If you mean of all time, then it would easily be a GMC PD 4106. At least IMHO.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That makes me remember, what's the difference between a PD-4104 and a PD-4106?
> 
> Personally, I've never been a career bus driver, but as a passenger, I can comfortably say that my top ten favourites are all MCI, Eagle, or GM models.  On MCI buses I really like the bar at the top of the windshield, I don't like light shining directly from the front. Really useful on the long runs I'm accustomed to where trains don't operate.
Click to expand...

The PD-4104 was built from 1953 to 1960. The 4106 replaced it in 1961, and was built through 1965. Main difference appearance-wise, was the '06 was more angular, less curved. Big mechanical difference was the replacement of the Detroit Diesel straight 6-71 engine with the new 8v-71. The new engine was much more powerful, eliminating the need to have a separate auxiliary gas engine to drive air conditioner, and freeing up more underfloor baggage space. Other than that, they were pretty similar, just minor differences...side windows a bit taller on the newer coach, elimination of emergency door except where mandated by local law (N.J.), new dashboard, seats, other minor differences. You can find photo's online....

I would have to agree on windshields. I feel a lot more comfortable with a smaller windshield, too. Not only for less bother from light, but also less chance of a large bird or a rock breaking it. Love the small windshields on MC-5's and MC-7's.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

I have a funny story about an MC-12.

I was coming home from California in 2003, and in Houston, they had an MC-12 on the run from Houston to Mobile *as per the destination sign on the bus*. We load up, and we go to hit the onramp to I-10 Eastbound, this poor MC-12, the driver had it floored!! The engine was literally racing to try and get us up the onramp. Im glad they took them out of service. That kinda scared me a bit, although it was funny afterwards.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I have a funny story about an MC-12.
> 
> I was coming home from California in 2003, and in Houston, they had an MC-12 on the run from Houston to Mobile *as per the destination sign on the bus*. We load up, and we go to hit the onramp to I-10 Eastbound, this poor MC-12, the driver had it floored!! The engine was literally racing to try and get us up the onramp. Im glad they took them out of service. That kinda scared me a bit, although it was funny afterwards.


Well, it was an improved MC-9 designed when Greyhound had financial trouble.

OK, it seems that the G4500s are running on 509 and 502.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OK, it seems that the G4500s are running on 509 and 502.


Are you refering to the Timetable numbers? 502=Spokane-Portland, 509=Seattle-Stanfield/Missoula........?

I think they should run 'em on their Tex-Mex services.....from where they originated.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, it seems that the G4500s are running on 509 and 502.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you refering to the Timetable numbers? 502=Spokane-Portland, 509=Seattle-Stanfield/Missoula........?
> 
> I think they should run 'em on their Tex-Mex services.....from where they originated.
Click to expand...

Yup, timetable numbers. I don't think all the G4500s are here, though. I just have many, many pieces of evidence that they are around here, like:

1. Google Street View with G4500 arrving in Seattle.

2. YouTube videos showing buses in Moses Lake and in Montana, so that must be on the 509.

3. Flickr picture of G4500 in The Dalles, I think. Roll sign says Spokane so must be 502.

4. Got some other pictures, too, just can't remember.


----------



## railiner

Interesting....I had heard they were pretty much 'out West', your info, if the views are recent, confirms that.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Interesting....I had heard they were pretty much 'out West', your info, if the views are recent, confirms that.


It would be really nice to know where the other G4500s are. There can only be a few on the 502/509, as those routes don't need many buses. Maybe 601?

Anybody that knows please respond, if you don't know it's OK.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

I hear that they tend to run G4500's between Seattle and Vancouver BC.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I hear that they tend to run G4500's between Seattle and Vancouver BC.


OK, so it looks like G4500s are based in sEattle. I would assume they run to Portland too becuase they were spotted on 502 Portland-Spokane.

Greyhound isn't upgrading the G4500s, are they? There's a picture of one in the new livery on Greyhound's site, but nothing elsewhere. I haven't spotted one in Neoclassical Blue either.

Maybe the one Greyhound repainted for the pictures got burned already.  That's considering how many G4500s have already burned.


----------



## lthanlon

I'm enjoying this thread about Greyhound -- and especially the LD routes. Sometime soon, I'm hoping to ride Greyhound across most of the Trans-Canada Highway. I do recall reading recently that there's a move afoot to cut back on some bus service in our neighbor to north. Any word on whether LD routes might be affected?

Much of my interest in such a trip is fueled by

.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lthanlon said:


> I'm enjoying this thread about Greyhound -- and especially the LD routes. Sometime soon, I'm hoping to ride Greyhound across most of the Trans-Canada Highway. I do recall reading recently that there's a move afoot to cut back on some bus service in our neighbor to north. Any word on whether LD routes might be affected?
> 
> Much of my interest in such a trip is fueled by


As someone who has ridden a Canadian Greyhound from Vancouver to Winnipeg, let me urge you to limit your Bus trip to the Vancouver to Calgary or Vancouver to Edmonton part of the Trans Can! It's a Loooooooooooooong way across the Praries in Canada, Nebraska X 4 would be a good Comparison and if you want to experience the Great Shiled in Ontario and the Praries ride the Caandian from Toronto to Edmonton, then consider taking the Long Dog to Vancouver! Trust me, youll be glad you did! :excl: :excl: :excl:


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Well, they are refurbing the fleet that they have. I have seen a G-45 in the new livery passing through. It was being used as an extra bus on a run westbound to El Paso *that is a heavily used route here *New Orleans to El Paso*. The body itself was in bad shape, its seen a wreck or two obviously. That poor bus got "dogged". If anyone wants to slap me for that lame pun, I understand completely haha.

The G4500's are no longer produced at all, so once they are either burned up, wrecked, or destroyed from lack of maintenance, then thats it, no more G4500's.

The new D4505's and X-3's are the new replacements. Greyhound stated that they will be replacing the entire fleet eventually. Greyhound also stated that they are starting to build more intermodal terminals so passengers can connect with Amtrak and other train services as well.


----------



## railiner

lthanlon said:


> I'm enjoying this thread about Greyhound -- and especially the LD routes. Sometime soon, I'm hoping to ride Greyhound across most of the Trans-Canada Highway. I do recall reading recently that there's a move afoot to cut back on some bus service in our neighbor to north. Any word on whether LD routes might be affected?
> 
> Much of my interest in such a trip is fueled by


Hey....thanks so much for providing that link! I watched a couple, and had to tear myself away, or I would not get anything else done! Will go back and watch some more when I get a chance.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting....I had heard they were pretty much 'out West', your info, if the views are recent, confirms that.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be really nice to know where the other G4500s are. There can only be a few on the 502/509, as those routes don't need many buses. Maybe 601?
> 
> Anybody that knows please respond, if you don't know it's OK.
Click to expand...

Well a couple of them were in 'The Port' today....7038 and 7142 or 3, IIRC....

One of them was out of service for some reason. Maintenance supervisor told me he can't wait to get rid of them..,


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

I cant wait to see them disappear either. Once Greyhound places more orders for the new X'3's and D4505's, you will see the G models get phased out. I talked to a female driver the other day who pulled up in an X-3 here at the terminal, and I asked her how she liked the X-3, she smiles and says "Its alot better than those G series, thats for sure!", we both laughed. I wished her a safe run in the X-3 and off she went.

Im not sure how quickly Greyhound can place orders with MCI and Prevost, but apparently they are ordering the new buses as quickly as they can. Im starting to see the newer buses more and more as the months roll by.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Does the G4500 run on any LD routes? If they do then that's gonna be horrible!


----------



## GG-1

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Does the G4500 run on any LD routes? If they do then that's gonna be horrible!


Aloha

What is the definition of a long "Distance Route"?


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Eric, as per Greyhound, anything over 350 miles is considered Long Distance. For example, there is a run from New Orleans to Shreveport Louisiana, this is considered a Local run. its 341 miles, so almost an LD run but not quite.

There is no real way to know where Greyhound will stick buses, except in certain cases *Bolt buses will stay in the Northeast* that sorta thing.

Most of the time, the decision is made based on whats available in the pool of buses waiting in the lot, out of the ones that arent in need of maintenance.

Lets say there are 4 buses available for the New Orleans to El Paso run. an X3, a D4505, a D4500, or a G4500..

If the G4500 needs maintenance, then that bus is not considered, so one bus down.

Lets say the D4500 got a transmission complaint by the driver upon its return from another run, well that bus isnt going anywhere because it will need to be looked at. *maintenance mode* Two buses down.

Now its between the X-3 and the D4505. Which one can be cleaned, inspected, and cleared to roll? If its the X-3, then that is the one chosen.

Now, if both buses are ready to roll, are there enough passengers to send both the X3 and the D4505 out on the same run? If yes, then the D4505 will be set up as the extra bus.

If the D4505 is spoken for on another run for instance New Orleans to Miami run, then so be it, the X3 goes it alone from New Orleans to El Paso.

I have seen Greyhound pull a bus out of Baton Rouge as an extra. I have also seen buses get completely replaced at Baton Rouge for various technical reasons.

I have driver friends who explained this as best as they could.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Eric, as per Greyhound, anything over 350 miles is considered Long Distance. For example, there is a run from New Orleans to Shreveport Louisiana, this is considered a Local run. its 341 miles, so almost an LD run but not quite.
> 
> There is no real way to know where Greyhound will stick buses, except in certain cases *Bolt buses will stay in the Northeast* that sorta thing.
> 
> Most of the time, the decision is made based on whats available in the pool of buses waiting in the lot, out of the ones that arent in need of maintenance.
> 
> Lets say there are 4 buses available for the New Orleans to El Paso run. an X3, a D4505, a D4500, or a G4500..
> 
> If the G4500 needs maintenance, then that bus is not considered, so one bus down.
> 
> Lets say the D4500 got a transmission complaint by the driver upon its return from another run, well that bus isnt going anywhere because it will need to be looked at. *maintenance mode* Two buses down.
> 
> Now its between the X-3 and the D4505. Which one can be cleaned, inspected, and cleared to roll? If its the X-3, then that is the one chosen.
> 
> Now, if both buses are ready to roll, are there enough passengers to send both the X3 and the D4505 out on the same run? If yes, then the D4505 will be set up as the extra bus.
> 
> If the D4505 is spoken for on another run for instance New Orleans to Miami run, then so be it, the X3 goes it alone from New Orleans to El Paso.
> 
> I have seen Greyhound pull a bus out of Baton Rouge as an extra. I have also seen buses get completely replaced at Baton Rouge for various technical reasons.
> 
> I have driver friends who explained this as best as they could.


Good job. Wait, what happens when both buses are ready to roll and there's no room for an extra? I bet it happens a lot, so what happens?

Really though, what I'm trying to find out is where the G4500s are pooled. I just don't wanna get on a bus that'll catch fire in a pinch. Sure, I can't access a BOSS computer, but at least some spotter info would help.

One thing I've always wondered, can you call a dispatcher and see what bus is on your run?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Really though, what I'm trying to find out is where the G4500s are pooled. I just don't wanna get on a bus that'll catch fire in a pinch. Sure, I can't access a BOSS computer, but at least some spotter info would help.
> 
> One thing I've always wondered, can you call a dispatcher and see what bus is on your run?


As much as I dislike the G's, I would not be overly concerned about one catching on fire while I was aboard. It is just not that common an occurence...

If it were, the Federal Highway Administration would "ground" them, until the problem was cured.

Dispatcher's numbers are private, for employee use only. And even if you could call, they don't always have the bus assigned until the last moment.

If you were boarding a long distance bus enroute, you might be able to find out what bus started the trip, but even then, the bus could be 'cut', and another substituted for whatever reason at servicing points along the way.

Sorry I could not help more.....


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Exactly railiner. A bus can be taken out of, or put into service at any point in route.

I had a bus out of El Paso that was supposed to go all the way to Los Angeles, but got changed out in Phoenix due to oil pressure problems. A bus can break down in route, so the bus that arrives into a city may not be the intended bus, it could be a replacement bus sent to rescue stranded passengers as well.

Greyhound changes things frequently and without reason, so spotters can only tell you what we see after a bus reaches our terminals.

For example Swadian, lets say you lived in Houston, and I knew you were catching a bus on a Tuesday evening westbound for San Antonio TX. Well, I can go down to the terminal here in Lafayette Tuesday morning, and spot the westbound buses coming through, and I could message you and say, Ok, there are no G models heading to Houston. Its an X-3, D4505, and another X-3 heading your way. Being that this decision is made in New Orleans *beginning of the run*, all I can do is tell you whats rolling through at this point. Even if you had a spotter in New Orleans terminal, they still could only tell you what buses are departing there, which would be the same buses rolling through Lafayette as well that day.

Greyhound also tends to shift their pools as need be, so I could tell you that G's are "pooled" in X city, but next month, GLI can move them to Y city and pool them there.

I hope I didnt confuse anyone here. Haha.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?

How common are extras? I seldomly see one.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.


Not sure what you mean in your first sentence...

As for extra section's....come and visit us at The Port during most weekends, and especially during holiday's!

During Canadian holiday's, we sometimes run seven or more extra sections on a schedule. Or whenever the colleges go on recess.

As for selecting which bus to run....they are selected from whatever is readily available from the proper pool. Equipment wise, you can have both X-3's or D4500's in the same pool, so it is just random luck. And when it really gets busy, we run whatever we can, proper pool or not. This leads to sometimes 'exotic' and rare buses showing up at strange locations. For example, at various times, New York Trailways buses are pooled with Greyhound on schedules in New York state. Once in a while, they may end up 'off-pool', on a Boston-Albany-Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago trip. A rare sight to see a NY Trailways bus in Boston or Chicago, not on a charter.

And if hard pressed for equipment, it could even go beyond those points, until things return to normal, and is sent back 'home'.

Regarding the G's that show up in NYC now, they are mostly sent 'back' on New York-St. Louis/Denver trips.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean in your first sentence...
> 
> As for extra section's....come and visit us at The Port during most weekends, and especially during holiday's!
> 
> During Canadian holiday's, we sometimes run seven or more extra sections on a schedule. Or whenever the colleges go on recess.
> 
> As for selecting which bus to run....they are selected from whatever is readily available from the proper pool. Equipment wise, you can have both X-3's or D4500's in the same pool, so it is just random luck. And when it really gets busy, we run whatever we can, proper pool or not. This leads to sometimes 'exotic' and rare buses showing up at strange locations. For example, at various times, New York Trailways buses are pooled with Greyhound on schedules in New York state. Once in a while, they may end up 'off-pool', on a Boston-Albany-Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago trip. A rare sight to see a NY Trailways bus in Boston or Chicago, not on a charter.
> 
> And if hard pressed for equipment, it could even go beyond those points, until things return to normal, and is sent back 'home'.
> 
> Regarding the G's that show up in NYC now, they are mostly sent 'back' on New York-St. Louis/Denver trips.
Click to expand...

Wait, you mean the G4500s regularly run NYD-DEN or just for shuttling around the country? I guess they can get from NYD to PUT by running NYD-DEN-PUT. I know there's many in the Northeast.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

New question: Greyhound says that, "Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited." So does that mean it is prohbited to photograph Greyhound buses from the exterior?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> New question: Greyhound says that, "Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited." So does that mean it is prohbited to photograph Greyhound buses from the exterior?


Now that's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too...

I looked at the Greyhound website to find where you saw that quotation. That's a new one on me....Looks like something their lawyers insisted be included to protect themself, 'just-in-case', of what, I don't know. Or perhaps it's "security theater", to make people think Greyhound is like airports or railway lines.

As far as photographing from the outside, if you are not on their property, I don't think there is any way they can stop you. And if you are aboard their bus, what objection could they possibly have if you shoot the scenery thru the windows?

They only possible scenario I think they would object to is someone shooting the driver doing something wrong (like texting while driving, etc.), and then putting it on youtube, thereby causing them embarrassment, and/or hurting them if there happened to be an accident as a result.

I don't think there are any proprietary procedures or trade secrets that they have to fear others from discovering...


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean in your first sentence...
> 
> As for extra section's....come and visit us at The Port during most weekends, and especially during holiday's!
> 
> During Canadian holiday's, we sometimes run seven or more extra sections on a schedule. Or whenever the colleges go on recess.
> 
> As for selecting which bus to run....they are selected from whatever is readily available from the proper pool. Equipment wise, you can have both X-3's or D4500's in the same pool, so it is just random luck. And when it really gets busy, we run whatever we can, proper pool or not. This leads to sometimes 'exotic' and rare buses showing up at strange locations. For example, at various times, New York Trailways buses are pooled with Greyhound on schedules in New York state. Once in a while, they may end up 'off-pool', on a Boston-Albany-Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago trip. A rare sight to see a NY Trailways bus in Boston or Chicago, not on a charter.
> 
> And if hard pressed for equipment, it could even go beyond those points, until things return to normal, and is sent back 'home'.
> 
> Regarding the G's that show up in NYC now, they are mostly sent 'back' on New York-St. Louis/Denver trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wait, you mean the G4500s regularly run NYD-DEN or just for shuttling around the country? I guess they can get from NYD to PUT by running NYD-DEN-PUT. I know there's many in the Northeast.
Click to expand...

Those trips operate to and from the North Wing, so I rarely get the chance to see them come and go. If I remember next time, I'll try to slip over to see....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> New question: Greyhound says that, "Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited." So does that mean it is prohbited to photograph Greyhound buses from the exterior?
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too...
> 
> I looked at the Greyhound website to find where you saw that quotation. That's a new one on me....Looks like something their lawyers insisted be included to protect themself, 'just-in-case', of what, I don't know. Or perhaps it's "security theater", to make people think Greyhound is like airports or railway lines.
> 
> As far as photographing from the outside, if you are not on their property, I don't think there is any way they can stop you. And if you are aboard their bus, what objection could they possibly have if you shoot the scenery thru the windows?
> 
> They only possible scenario I think they would object to is someone shooting the driver doing something wrong (like texting while driving, etc.), and then putting it on youtube, thereby causing them embarrassment, and/or hurting them if there happened to be an accident as a result.
> 
> I don't think there are any proprietary procedures or trade secrets that they have to fear others from discovering...
Click to expand...

Whaqt if you photograph a bus from inside the stationthat you are about to board? Is that illegal? What about the insterior of a bus?



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean in your first sentence...
> 
> As for extra section's....come and visit us at The Port during most weekends, and especially during holiday's!
> 
> During Canadian holiday's, we sometimes run seven or more extra sections on a schedule. Or whenever the colleges go on recess.
> 
> As for selecting which bus to run....they are selected from whatever is readily available from the proper pool. Equipment wise, you can have both X-3's or D4500's in the same pool, so it is just random luck. And when it really gets busy, we run whatever we can, proper pool or not. This leads to sometimes 'exotic' and rare buses showing up at strange locations. For example, at various times, New York Trailways buses are pooled with Greyhound on schedules in New York state. Once in a while, they may end up 'off-pool', on a Boston-Albany-Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago trip. A rare sight to see a NY Trailways bus in Boston or Chicago, not on a charter.
> 
> And if hard pressed for equipment, it could even go beyond those points, until things return to normal, and is sent back 'home'.
> 
> Regarding the G's that show up in NYC now, they are mostly sent 'back' on New York-St. Louis/Denver trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wait, you mean the G4500s regularly run NYD-DEN or just for shuttling around the country? I guess they can get from NYD to PUT by running NYD-DEN-PUT. I know there's many in the Northeast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those trips operate to and from the North Wing, so I rarely get the chance to see them come and go. If I remember next time, I'll try to slip over to see....
Click to expand...

North Wing? What are you talking about?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too...
> 
> I looked at the Greyhound website to find where you saw that quotation. That's a new one on me....Looks like something their lawyers insisted be included to protect themself, 'just-in-case', of what, I don't know. Or perhaps it's "security theater", to make people think Greyhound is like airports or railway lines.
> 
> As far as photographing from the outside, if you are not on their property, I don't think there is any way they can stop you. And if you are aboard their bus, what objection could they possibly have if you shoot the scenery thru the windows?
> 
> They only possible scenario I think they would object to is someone shooting the driver doing something wrong (like texting while driving, etc.), and then putting it on youtube, thereby causing them embarrassment, and/or hurting them if there happened to be an accident as a result.
> 
> I don't think there are any proprietary procedures or trade secrets that they have to fear others from discovering...
> 
> 
> 
> Whaqt if you photograph a bus from inside the stationthat you are about to board? Is that illegal? What about the insterior of a bus?
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, you mean the G4500s regularly run NYD-DEN or just for shuttling around the country? I guess they can get from NYD to PUT by running NYD-DEN-PUT. I know there's many in the Northeast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those trips operate to and from the North Wing, so I rarely get the chance to see them come and go. If I remember next time, I'll try to slip over to see....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> North Wing? What are you talking about?
Click to expand...

I work in the South Wing, where New York State and Canadian trips operate, so I don't see the rest of the schedules that operate from the North Wing...

As for clarification on the photography policy....I'm afraid you will have to try to get an answer directly from Greyhound....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a good question. I'd like to know the answer to that, too...
> 
> I looked at the Greyhound website to find where you saw that quotation. That's a new one on me....Looks like something their lawyers insisted be included to protect themself, 'just-in-case', of what, I don't know. Or perhaps it's "security theater", to make people think Greyhound is like airports or railway lines.
> 
> As far as photographing from the outside, if you are not on their property, I don't think there is any way they can stop you. And if you are aboard their bus, what objection could they possibly have if you shoot the scenery thru the windows?
> 
> They only possible scenario I think they would object to is someone shooting the driver doing something wrong (like texting while driving, etc.), and then putting it on youtube, thereby causing them embarrassment, and/or hurting them if there happened to be an accident as a result.
> 
> I don't think there are any proprietary procedures or trade secrets that they have to fear others from discovering...
> 
> 
> 
> Whaqt if you photograph a bus from inside the stationthat you are about to board? Is that illegal? What about the insterior of a bus?
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, you mean the G4500s regularly run NYD-DEN or just for shuttling around the country? I guess they can get from NYD to PUT by running NYD-DEN-PUT. I know there's many in the Northeast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those trips operate to and from the North Wing, so I rarely get the chance to see them come and go. If I remember next time, I'll try to slip over to see....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> North Wing? What are you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I work in the South Wing, where New York State and Canadian trips operate, so I don't see the rest of the schedules that operate from the North Wing...
> 
> As for clarification on the photography policy....I'm afraid you will have to try to get an answer directly from Greyhound....
Click to expand...

Oh, I understand now. I'm not falimiar with PABT.

What's the differece between New York/Adirondack/Pine Hill Trailways anyway?


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

They used to be seperate bus lines, but now they are all consolidated into New York Trailways.


----------



## railiner

Amtrak Cajun said:


> They used to be seperate bus lines, but now they are all consolidated into New York Trailways.


Close, but they are legally separate companies that have common ownership. Each has a separate union contract and seniority. Drivers for Adirondack Transit Lines, dba Adirondack Trailways, and Pine Hill - Kingston Bus Corp., dba Pine Hill Trailways are represented by the United Transportation Union. Passenger Bus Corp. dba New York Trailways, are represented by the Teamster's.

ADT and PHK are owned jointly by the grandson and grandaughter of the founder. NYT is owned solely by the grandson, as he started that company himself when he took over the routes, driver's, and a few buses from the former Empire Trailways in the mid 1990,s.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Thats what I meant, they are commonly owned. Thanks for the clarification though.


----------



## lthanlon

As long as you're not a nuisance and avoid annoying people, discreet photography probably isn't a problem. Check out this guy's wonderful set of Flickr photos, Riding the Dog.


----------



## Ryan

railiner said:


> As far as photographing from the outside, if you are not on their property, I don't think there is any way they can stop you.


Nope. If you're not on their property, you can take pictures of whatever you'd like and there's not a thing they can do to stop it.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> They used to be seperate bus lines, but now they are all consolidated into New York Trailways.
> 
> 
> 
> Close, but they are legally separate companies that have common ownership. Each has a separate union contract and seniority. Drivers for Adirondack Transit Lines, dba Adirondack Trailways, and Pine Hill - Kingston Bus Corp., dba Pine Hill Trailways are represented by the United Transportation Union. Passenger Bus Corp. dba New York Trailways, are represented by the Teamster's.
> 
> ADT and PHK are owned jointly by the grandson and grandaughter of the founder. NYT is owned solely by the grandson, as he started that company himself when he took over the routes, driver's, and a few buses from the former Empire Trailways in the mid 1990,s.
Click to expand...

What about Carolina Trailways? What happened to them?



lthanlon said:


> As long as you're not a nuisance and avoid annoying people, discreet photography probably isn't a problem. Check out this guy's wonderful set of Flickr photos, Riding the Dog.


Thanks for the link!


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> They used to be seperate bus lines, but now they are all consolidated into New York Trailways.
> 
> 
> 
> Close, but they are legally separate companies that have common ownership. Each has a separate union contract and seniority. Drivers for Adirondack Transit Lines, dba Adirondack Trailways, and Pine Hill - Kingston Bus Corp., dba Pine Hill Trailways are represented by the United Transportation Union. Passenger Bus Corp. dba New York Trailways, are represented by the Teamster's.
> 
> ADT and PHK are owned jointly by the grandson and grandaughter of the founder. NYT is owned solely by the grandson, as he started that company himself when he took over the routes, driver's, and a few buses from the former Empire Trailways in the mid 1990,s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What about Carolina Trailways? What happened to them?
> 
> 
> 
> lthanlon said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you're not a nuisance and avoid annoying people, discreet photography probably isn't a problem. Check out this guy's wonderful set of Flickr photos, Riding the Dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the link!
Click to expand...

Greyhound purchased them, and finally fully absorbed them into GLI, along with other subsidiaries like Vermont Transit, a few years ago. There are still several Carolina buses in the fleet. They are numbered in the 85000 series...


----------



## railiner

lthanlon said:


> As long as you're not a nuisance and avoid annoying people, discreet photography probably isn't a problem. Check out this guy's wonderful set of Flickr photos, Riding the Dog.


Thanks for the link.

A wonderful set indeed, that really captures the essence of Greyhound long distance travel today. Great people portraits. Too bad many of the photo's were way out of focus.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> 
> They used to be seperate bus lines, but now they are all consolidated into New York Trailways.
> 
> 
> 
> Close, but they are legally separate companies that have common ownership. Each has a separate union contract and seniority. Drivers for Adirondack Transit Lines, dba Adirondack Trailways, and Pine Hill - Kingston Bus Corp., dba Pine Hill Trailways are represented by the United Transportation Union. Passenger Bus Corp. dba New York Trailways, are represented by the Teamster's.
> 
> ADT and PHK are owned jointly by the grandson and grandaughter of the founder. NYT is owned solely by the grandson, as he started that company himself when he took over the routes, driver's, and a few buses from the former Empire Trailways in the mid 1990,s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What about Carolina Trailways? What happened to them?
> 
> 
> 
> lthanlon said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you're not a nuisance and avoid annoying people, discreet photography probably isn't a problem. Check out this guy's wonderful set of Flickr photos, Riding the Dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the link!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greyhound purchased them, and finally fully absorbed them into GLI, along with other subsidiaries like Vermont Transit, a few years ago. There are still several Carolina buses in the fleet. They are numbered in the 85000 series...
Click to expand...

Argh, it's not good to see more Big Reds go!

Another question, why are destination signs often misinformative? They sometimes don't display anything when on a revenue run or display the wrong destination.


----------



## GG-1

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Another question, why are destination signs often misinformative? They sometimes don't display anything when on a revenue run or display the wrong destination.


Aloha

Interesting comment. On my recent trip between LA and LV one direction was labeled "Local" they made the same stops but neither had destination signs. If one did not pay attention to the boarding location announcement one would go to the wrong city.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

GG-1 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another question, why are destination signs often misinformative? They sometimes don't display anything when on a revenue run or display the wrong destination.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Interesting comment. On my recent trip between LA and LV one direction was *labeled "Local"* they made the same stops but *neither had destination signs*. If one did not pay attention to the boarding location announcement one would go to the wrong city.
Click to expand...

This dosen't make sense. You say that one bus was signed (labeled) "LOCAL" but neither had destination signs. So how was the bus signed if it does not have signs? :help:


----------



## GG-1

Swadian Hardcore said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another question, why are destination signs often misinformative? They sometimes don't display anything when on a revenue run or display the wrong destination.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Interesting comment. On my recent trip between LA and LV one direction was *labeled "Local"* they made the same stops but *neither had destination signs*. If one did not pay attention to the boarding location announcement one would go to the wrong city.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This dosen't make sense. You say that one bus was signed (labeled) "LOCAL" but neither had destination signs. So how was the bus signed if it does not have signs? :help:
Click to expand...

Aloha

The bus heading to LA was in loading bay 5. The bus to LV was in Loading Bay 1. Neither had signs for their destination. I forget which direction, but one of them has a sign that said "LOCAL", but the stops in both directions were the same. Not in order but Victoville, Barstow, a race track in Calif, another city in LA, the Amtrak station LAUS, and the LA Greyline Terminal. The dispatchers anounced which loading bay for each destination. In LA, 2 buses for Bakersfield were in bays 5 & 6.


----------



## railiner

Destination Signs?

Oftentimes, they are not working. They are a low-priority maintenance item. And drivers lifting tickets should not board you, if it is the incorrect trip.

In terminals, since you board by assigned gates, they really are not necessary. Only for curbside loading are they truly useful. And yes, sometimes the driver simply forgets to display proper sign, or receives the bus late for some reason, and just doesn't take the time to change it...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Destination Signs?
> 
> Oftentimes, they are not working. They are a low-priority maintenance item. And drivers lifting tickets should not board you, if it is the incorrect trip.
> 
> In terminals, since you board by assigned gates, they really are not necessary. Only for curbside loading are they truly useful. And yes, sometimes the driver simply forgets to display proper sign, or receives the bus late for some reason, and just doesn't take the time to change it...


I hope they will iimprove this over time. BTW, what do you work as for ADI?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Destination Signs?
> 
> Oftentimes, they are not working. They are a low-priority maintenance item. And drivers lifting tickets should not board you, if it is the incorrect trip.
> 
> In terminals, since you board by assigned gates, they really are not necessary. Only for curbside loading are they truly useful. And yes, sometimes the driver simply forgets to display proper sign, or receives the bus late for some reason, and just doesn't take the time to change it...
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they will iimprove this over time. BTW, what do you work as for ADI?
Click to expand...

The new electronic display signs are an improvement over the curtain type signs...

I am a dispatcher for ADT. What is your occupation?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Destination Signs?
> 
> Oftentimes, they are not working. They are a low-priority maintenance item. And drivers lifting tickets should not board you, if it is the incorrect trip.
> 
> In terminals, since you board by assigned gates, they really are not necessary. Only for curbside loading are they truly useful. And yes, sometimes the driver simply forgets to display proper sign, or receives the bus late for some reason, and just doesn't take the time to change it...
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they will iimprove this over time. BTW, what do you work as for ADI?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The new electronic display signs are an improvement over the curtain type signs...
> 
> I am a dispatcher for ADT. What is your occupation?
Click to expand...

Oh, so _you_ are dispatcher. That explains your comment about sharing Greyhound's BOSS computers.

As for me, I'm a historian, specializing in the High Middle Ages. I'm also interested in the Renaissane, but that is just an interest, not a profession.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I think someone should do us all a favor and start a discussion forum on LD bus transportation.


----------



## lthanlon

The Davy Crockett said:


> I think someone should do us all a favor and start a discussion forum on LD bus transportation.


Great idea!


----------



## Bob Dylan

When it comes to LD Bus Travel whatever the Company, IMO it's like S&M, some people Like it but most think its really Uncomfortable and Wouldnt be caught Dead (no Pun intended)doing it! What in the world would make someone even think about riding a LD Bus across the US or even worse, Canada???


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jimhudson said:


> When it comes to LD Bus Travel whatever the Company, IMO it's like S&M, some people Like it but most think its really Uncomfortable and Wouldnt be caught Dead (no Pun intended)doing it! What in the world would make someone even think about riding a LD Bus across the US or even worse, Canada???


Hmm, an enthusiasm for buses? Because I'm OK with it but I must have a rest in a hotel somewhere in between.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

About buses, I saw some Greyhound 102DL3s in the new livery but they don't have wheelchair lifts and they still have roll signs. Do these buses have the new seating?

I mean ones like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/4733181311/

BTW, apparently a rookie driver with the yellow vest on.


----------



## lthanlon

jimhudson said:


> When it comes to LD Bus Travel whatever the Company, IMO it's like S&M, some people Like it but most think its really Uncomfortable and Wouldnt be caught Dead (no Pun intended)doing it! What in the world would make someone even think about riding a LD Bus across the US or even worse, Canada???


You've got that right. You wouldn't believe the reaction of my family when I suggested I wanted to ride Greyhound across Canada. Yup. They rolled out the crazed cannibal story. When I correctly pointed out that the cannibal decapitation was an anomaly, they trotted out warnings about bedbugs.

What the heck is it with bedbug hysteria these days? A friend at work told me last week that because her mother had read about bedbug problems in New York City, that when her brother visited from Manhattan, he wasn't permitted to enter the house until he had gone into the garage, secured his baggage in plastic garbage bags and then taken off his clothes for quick laundering.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

IMHO: hboy: While a few people like being packed like sardines in a metal container, most people don't. While it is true most folks will tolerate it when flying - in the name of quickness - it takes a special kind of masochist to enjoy it at groung level for days upon days upon days without seeing an end in sight. h34r:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The Davy Crockett said:


> IMHO: hboy: While a few people like being packed like sardines in a metal container, most people don't. While it is true most folks will tolerate it when flying - in the name of quickness - it takes a special kind of masochist to enjoy it at groung level for days upon days upon days without seeing an end in sight. h34r:


Dude, DL3s aren't that bad!


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Then go find a website for bus freaks, we are train freaks here.


----------



## GG-1

The Davy Crockett said:


> I think someone should do us all a favor and start a discussion forum on LD bus transportation.


Aloha

As one of the voting members of the moderators, I do not support a special forum for Long distance Bus discussions. I do feel that this Forum for Non-Rail Transportation covers this subject. But since a lot of our members do like LD Bus discussions, I would support a pined LD Bus Thread.

Les see how other Mod's and members respond.


----------



## lthanlon

GG-1 said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think someone should do us all a favor and start a discussion forum on LD bus transportation.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> As one of the voting members of the moderators, I do not support a special forum for Long distance Bus discussions. I do feel that this Forum for Non-Rail Transportation covers this subject. But since a lot of our members do like LD Bus discussions, I would support a pined LD Bus Thread.
> 
> Les see how other Mod's and members respond.
Click to expand...

A thread would be nice.


----------



## lthanlon

The Davy Crockett said:


> Then go find a website for bus freaks, we are train freaks here.


There's the Yahoo group that I know of. If there's an actual website, as well, I haven't found one.


----------



## the_traveler

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 1350598171[/url]' post='400107']Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.


I'm not sure about now, but back in the 70's and 80's when I lived in upstate New York State, if there were more passengers than the bus would hold, many bus stations had extra buses on standby to carry those extra passengers. When I lived out west in the 90's, I expected the same thing. I took a bus from LV to my home in Laughlin, NV. The bus was at midnight, but when that bus filled up they said "Next bus is at 5 am"!






But being downtown LV, there were many things to occupy the wait! (Casinos I mean!



)


----------



## the_traveler

GG-1 said:


> 1351284694[/url]' post='402020']
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1351235629[/url]' post='401896']I think someone should do us all a favor and start a discussion forum on LD bus transportation.
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> As one of the voting members of the moderators, I do not support a special forum for Long distance Bus discussions. I do feel that this Forum for Non-Rail Transportation covers this subject. But since a lot of our members do like LD Bus discussions, I would support a pined LD Bus Thread.
> 
> Les see how other Mod's and members respond.
Click to expand...

I agree with what Eric said. I also feel this forum covers all subject not rail related.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The Davy Crockett said:


> Then go find a website for bus freaks, we are train freaks here.


I know, I tried, but at least this is the Non-Rail Transportation section. I'm a train enthusiast, too, I just ad some questios about buses. If you can check, you will find that most of my posts are still in the Amtrak Rail Discussion and directly relevent to trains.



the_traveler said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, what about when two buses are ready with no room for an extra? Which one is used?
> 
> How common are extras? I seldomly see one.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about now, but back in the 70's and 80's when I lived in upstate New York State, if there were more passengers than the bus would hold, many bus stations had extra buses on standby to carry those extra passengers. When I lived out west in the 90's, I expected the same thing. I took a bus from LV to my home in Laughlin, NV. The bus was at midnight, but when that bus filled up they said "Next bus is at 5 am"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But being downtown LV, there were many things to occupy the wait! (Casinos I mean!
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...



Too bad Greyhound dosen't many buses sitting around anymore! Drivers, too!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, I know this is an old thread, but I have a question and I don't want to start a new thread bucause it's not too significant.

Anyway, apparently buses cannot drive on the Henry Hudsin Parkway, so how does Greyhound 104/105/108 get out of NYD north to BOS? Do they go north on Eighth Avenue or do they go through the tunnel, then back on the George Washington Bridge? I haven't taken one of these runs in quite a long time because I don't live near NYD.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Well, when I rode out of NYP in September on Greyhound, we had other buses following us through the tunnel, because you end up on I-95, and then when you merge onto I-95N, you have a choice. You can continue on I-95N, or you can merge onto I-80W *which my bus did towards PA*. I watched other buses split onto I-95N.

Im sure they have other ways out of NY as well, but that seems to be the easiest way onto I-95.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Well, when I rode out of NYP in September on Greyhound, we had other buses following us through the tunnel, because you end up on I-95, and then when you merge onto I-95N, you have a choice. You can continue on I-95N, or you can merge onto I-80W *which my bus did towards PA*. I watched other buses split onto I-95N.
> 
> Im sure they have other ways out of NY as well, but that seems to be the easiest way onto I-95.


I meant the buses to Boston. If you go on ID-80 westbound, wouldn't you end up in Cleveland? If you keep going on one of the Dual-Duals northbound you would cross the GW Bridge back to New York. That sounds like a waste of time, fuel, and tolls.

BTW, can buses go on the Henry Hudson Parkway?


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

My bus took the I-80W split, but I saw other motorcoaches taking the I-95 split. When you depart NY via the tunnel, there are signs as you merge onto I-95N that say No tolls, keep moving.

I found something quite interesting though, as you exit the tunnel going WB, you go around this loop, and I thought to myself, whoever created this loop must have been drunk. Yep, we are just gonna make a tight loop here, that should give the bus drivers some fun. Haha.

Maybe next time Im up there I will do an experiment, I will board a Boston bound bus, and tell you how they exit NYC  Now you have me curious as to how many exits they have out of NYC. Thanks alot Swadian


----------



## AlanB

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I found something quite interesting though, as you exit the tunnel going WB, you go around this loop, and I thought to myself, whoever created this loop must have been drunk. Yep, we are just gonna make a tight loop here, that should give the bus drivers some fun. Haha.


That loop was the only way to shoehorn the tunnel into the existing available space there and still have a grade that trucks & buses could climb to reach the top of the hill, better known as the Palisades a line of steep cliffs/low mountains. The only other option would have been to bring the tunnel up on the other side Palisades much like Amtrak's tunnels come up on the western side of the Palisades. But that would have meant that people living right in that area would then have to drive west, in order to go east via the tunnel.

As for buses from the PA Terminal, they cannot use the Henry Hudson Highway/West Side Highway combo. They could however run up any avenue they like to I-95, they could go out the Midtown Tunnel almost opposite on the other side of Manhattan and to Queens, or they could go up to either one of the free bridges to the Bronx or the Triborough/RFK toll Bridge to Bronx and then on to 95 from there.

I have no knowledge of what they actually do, but knowing traffic in NYC, I can say that it would be faster for the buses to just go out the Lincoln Tunnel and then up the Turnpike and back over the George Washington Bridge. It's the more expensive way to go; but generally it would be the faster way to go.

One other final though on the buses that you saw going that way. In addition to bus service in that area of NJ, they could have also been headed to the 175th Street/George Washington Bridge PA Bus Terminal right at the end of the GWB. In fact, just like downtown, there are direct ramps to/from the upper level of the GWB to the bus terminal. It's not as busy & popular as the 42nd Street terminal, but it still does serve a fair number of buses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

It really stinks that the Henry Hudson Parkway cannot be used by buses. That would shave 10 or 15 minutes off the current route and Eighth Avenue dosen't seem that cogested anyway. Argh, whatever.


----------



## AlanB

There are plenty of times during the day that the HHP is nothing more than a parking lot.

One bit of trivia however, when riding Amtrak's Empire Connection just after popping out of the tunnel going north, you can see the HHP immediately to your left. The tracks gradually ramp down and go under the HHP. The HHP is once again partially overhead just before reaching the northern tip of Manhattan and crossing the river.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Thanks for the info on that loop. It makes sense. Curiosity fulfilled.

So, the buses do have a few ways to get out. Interesting.


----------



## railiner

Greyhound exits the North Wing onto 41st Street, turns north on 10th avenue which becomes Amsterdam Avenue, turns east on 110th Street, turns north on 7th Avenue which becomes Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Avenue, turns east on 135th Street, turns north onto Madison Avenue onto the bridge, turns South on I-87 (Major Deegan Expwy) until it curves around becoming Bruckner Expwy, and continues east on that until it runs into I-95 north the New England Thruway.

There are a few options thru Harlem, and also sometimes schedules will go north on I-87 onto the New York State Thruway up to I-287 the cross Westchester expwy east to I-684 north to I-84.....

Peter Pan uses the same basic routes. An interesting exception is Peter Pan's Bonanza division.....they use the Lincoln Tunnel to I-495 west to the New Jersey Turnpike north to

I-95 North over the George Washington Bridge then to I-87, 287, and 684.....

Anytime traffic conditions warrant it the driver's will use whatever option is forecasted as the best.....

The only carrier's that go thru Queens I believe are the Chinatown operators that use the Williamsburgh Bridge and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway to the Triboro Bridge....


----------



## railiner

Amtrak Cajun said:


> My bus took the I-80W split, but I saw other motorcoaches taking the I-95 split. When you depart NY via the tunnel, there are signs as you merge onto I-95N that say No tolls, keep moving.
> 
> I found something quite interesting though, as you exit the tunnel going WB, you go around this loop, and I thought to myself, whoever created this loop must have been drunk. Yep, we are just gonna make a tight loop here, that should give the bus drivers some fun. Haha.
> 
> Maybe next time Im up there I will do an experiment, I will board a Boston bound bus, and tell you how they exit NYC  Now you have me curious as to how many exits they have out of NYC. Thanks alot Swadian


That "loop" refered to locally as "The Helix", is also designated as I-495. It connects the Lincoln Tunnel with the New Jersey Turnpike and also NJ-3. It has a few local exits and a parallel service road at surface level. It runs from Weehawken, thru Union City toward Secaucus. As AlanB explained, it is designed to ease the grade from river level up to cross the Palisades. All long haul buses from New York City to and from points south, west, and north, use it. In the morning rush hour, there is a contra-flow bus only lane.

For first-time traveler's to New York City, if arriving during daylight or evening dusk, it offers one of the most dramatic entrances to any city. You are traveling thru a depressed highway below street level.....on your left side is the outcropping of the Palisades, until suddenly, you are in the clear, and get a brief, spectacular vista of the entire midtown and downtown Manhattan skyline, the Hudson River and New York Harbor. All too soon you plunge into the Lincoln Tunnel....

Sometimes driver's may elect to use the 'low road' (service road), if the helix is backed up too much....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Greyhound exits the North Wing onto 41st Street, turns north on 10th avenue which becomes Amsterdam Avenue, turns east on 110th Street, turns north on 7th Avenue which becomes Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Avenue, turns east on 135th Street, turns north onto Madison Avenue onto the bridge, turns South on I-87 (Major Deegan Expwy) until it curves around becoming Bruckner Expwy, and continues east on that until it runs into I-95 north the New England Thruway.
> 
> There are a few options thru Harlem, and also sometimes schedules will go north on I-87 onto the New York State Thruway up to I-287 the cross Westchester expwy east to I-684 north to I-84.....
> 
> Peter Pan uses the same basic routes. An interesting exception is Peter Pan's Bonanza division.....they use the Lincoln Tunnel to I-495 west to the New Jersey Turnpike north to
> 
> I-95 North over the George Washington Bridge then to I-87, 287, and 684.....
> 
> Anytime traffic conditions warrant it the driver's will use whatever option is forecasted as the best.....
> 
> The only carrier's that go thru Queens I believe are the Chinatown operators that use the Williamsburgh Bridge and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway to the Triboro Bridge....


Why don't they just go on 10th until 125th Street then east to the Robert Kennedy Bridge and then Bruckner Expressway? Or just loop around PABT and use 8th Avenue. It seems weird to have to switch over to 7th Avenue because 135 Street is blocked west of it.


----------



## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound exits the North Wing onto 41st Street, turns north on 10th avenue which becomes Amsterdam Avenue, turns east on 110th Street, turns north on 7th Avenue which becomes Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Avenue, turns east on 135th Street, turns north onto Madison Avenue onto the bridge, turns South on I-87 (Major Deegan Expwy) until it curves around becoming Bruckner Expwy, and continues east on that until it runs into I-95 north the New England Thruway.
> 
> There are a few options thru Harlem, and also sometimes schedules will go north on I-87 onto the New York State Thruway up to I-287 the cross Westchester expwy east to I-684 north to I-84.....
> 
> Peter Pan uses the same basic routes. An interesting exception is Peter Pan's Bonanza division.....they use the Lincoln Tunnel to I-495 west to the New Jersey Turnpike north to
> 
> I-95 North over the George Washington Bridge then to I-87, 287, and 684.....
> 
> Anytime traffic conditions warrant it the driver's will use whatever option is forecasted as the best.....
> 
> The only carrier's that go thru Queens I believe are the Chinatown operators that use the Williamsburgh Bridge and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway to the Triboro Bridge....
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't they just go on 10th until 125th Street then east to the Robert Kennedy Bridge and then Bruckner Expressway? Or just loop around PABT and use 8th Avenue. It seems weird to have to switch over to 7th Avenue because 135 Street is blocked west of it.
Click to expand...

Because the RFK bridge is a toll bridge and the Madison Avenue bridge is free. And 125th Street is a very busy street, often backed up. And 10th Avenue is generally faster than 8th Ave.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound exits the North Wing onto 41st Street, turns north on 10th avenue which becomes Amsterdam Avenue, turns east on 110th Street, turns north on 7th Avenue which becomes Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Avenue, turns east on 135th Street, turns north onto Madison Avenue onto the bridge, turns South on I-87 (Major Deegan Expwy) until it curves around becoming Bruckner Expwy, and continues east on that until it runs into I-95 north the New England Thruway.
> 
> There are a few options thru Harlem, and also sometimes schedules will go north on I-87 onto the New York State Thruway up to I-287 the cross Westchester expwy east to I-684 north to I-84.....
> 
> Peter Pan uses the same basic routes. An interesting exception is Peter Pan's Bonanza division.....they use the Lincoln Tunnel to I-495 west to the New Jersey Turnpike north to
> 
> I-95 North over the George Washington Bridge then to I-87, 287, and 684.....
> 
> Anytime traffic conditions warrant it the driver's will use whatever option is forecasted as the best.....
> 
> The only carrier's that go thru Queens I believe are the Chinatown operators that use the Williamsburgh Bridge and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway to the Triboro Bridge....
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't they just go on 10th until 125th Street then east to the Robert Kennedy Bridge and then Bruckner Expressway? Or just loop around PABT and use 8th Avenue. It seems weird to have to switch over to 7th Avenue because 135 Street is blocked west of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the RFK bridge is a toll bridge and the Madison Avenue bridge is free. And 125th Street is a very busy street, often backed up. And 10th Avenue is generally faster than 8th Ave.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Apparently Greyhound equipment is getting more predictable. Greyhound 540 has been reported with almost only G4500s. Refurbished 102DL3s had been spotted on this route but not anymore. Pax coming to SFD from the east will now have to endure a ride on the worst Greyhound bus!

601, 502, and 509 are now exclusively G4500s. The MC-12s that used to run up there got moved to Canada.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Say, if I ever gotta ride a G4500 again, what should I do to not turn it into a horror story?

Last time I was on a totally full G4500 back when they weren't all moved to the West and the trash can outside the restroom plus an unstable ride made this the first and only Greyhound bus I ever hated!


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just found out that Greyhound transferred its last MC-12 and 102D3s to Canada. They were reported all gone by November 2012. They're also shifting some refurbed DL3s to Canada, I don't know why. The Canadian network is cutting service and already has plenty of buses.


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## railiner

Greyhound has to be 100% ADA compatible in the States now.......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

But why did they send 60 rufurbished 102DL3s to Canada? If they need improved buses up there, they could refurbish the Canadian 1000-series.

I guess all the non-rufurbed DL3s were built with lifts, the ones from pool 251 I think. Or was it 254?


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Greyhound is working on buying new buses, they are going to slowly replace the entire fleet with the new D4505's and X3-45's. That is why they are getting rid of the older buses. Im glad too. After a while, all you are going to see are the new blue and silver buses.

They are also working to update their terminals, but they really need to improve their staff. I have run across some rude GLI employees in my travels. Those are the ones that leave the worst impressions. I have seen some terminals in the system that really need to be either rebuilt, or remodeled badly. If they can accomplish that, then Greyhounds reputation may improve.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Greyhound is working on buying new buses, they are going to slowly replace the entire fleet with the new D4505's and X3-45's. That is why they are getting rid of the older buses. Im glad too. After a while, all you are going to see are the new blue and silver buses.
> They are also working to update their terminals, but they really need to improve their staff. I have run across some rude GLI employees in my travels. Those are the ones that leave the worst impressions. I have seen some terminals in the system that really need to be either rebuilt, or remodeled badly. If they can accomplish that, then Greyhounds reputation may improve.


They need more buses instead of retiring buses. And they haven't retired any undamaged DL3s, only sent some to Canada. They're not even that old, the oldest one is from 1998. Look at those 1994 Flxible Metros that still run for TriMet.

What they need to get rid of are the G4500s, not the DL3s.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Well, I just read on Greyhounds news page that they just placed a major order with MCI and Prevost as of 4/01. They are ordering 220 new buses. The breakdown is 130 MCI D4505's, and 90 Prevost X3-45's. The first arrival of this new order will be in May of 2013, with the rest arriving in 2014.

The problem with the older DL3's though Swadian is that Greyhound is running them into the ground. Lets face it, they run their buses very hard. They dog them. Pun intended. They just dont do as much maintenance on them as they should. I had a friend that drove for Greyhound, I dont know if he is still driving, I havent seen him in a while. He told me unfortunately, Greyhound will turn and burn *meaning run them back and forth* without really giving them the thorough attention they need.


----------



## railiner

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Well, I just read on Greyhounds news page that they just placed a major order with MCI and Prevost as of 4/01. They are ordering 220 new buses. The breakdown is 130 MCI D4505's, and 90 Prevost X3-45's. The first arrival of this new order will be in May of 2013, with the rest arriving in 2014.
> The problem with the older DL3's though Swadian is that Greyhound is running them into the ground. Lets face it, they run their buses very hard. They dog them. Pun intended. They just dont do as much maintenance on them as they should. I had a friend that drove for Greyhound, I dont know if he is still driving, I havent seen him in a while. He told me unfortunately, Greyhound will turn and burn *meaning run them back and forth* without really giving them the thorough attention they need.


I must agree with you on this....GL doesn't even have a garage in NYC any longer. If there is a problem that the mechanics assigned to the Port can't remedy with their extremely limited resources, they will try to work the bus to Atlantic City, or some other location where GL has a garage, if at all possible. Overall, GL on a nationwide basis, has a fraction of the garage facilities that they used to.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Eventually, their whole fleet will be D4505's and X3-45's. Thats their plan. As the older buses give up the ghost, they are being replaced with the newer fleet. I hope Greyhound also continues to refresh and update their terminals, thats where they really need the improvement.

With the new buses also comes the expansion of their Express markets. which is good for everyone, less stopping and a quicker trip overall.

Also, one thing I noticed about the leather seating on my return trip from New Orleans recently. I had 2 older D4500's that were remodeled, new paint and whatnot, and the leather seats they used were different *different type* than the leather/suede seating used on the D4505's and the X3-45's. I personally found these seats to be more comfortable and more supportive than the newer bus seats. It had more lumbar support and more padding it seemed to me. I was actually "gasp* comfortable!!


----------



## railiner

Possibly because the rebuilt buses also had reupholstered and recovered older seat types--not sure of that.......the newest buses come with what are 'containment' seats, DOT mandated. They are similar to school bus seats in that they offer better protection and containment in a major wreck, even if the occupants don't use the integrated seatbelts.

The downside is they aren't much more comfortable than school bus seats, either, although they are individual and reclines somewhat....


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

That makes sense. I even talked to a few of the drivers, and they didnt even like the newer seats. They pretty much told me these new buses arent as comfortable to drive because of the seating, but he smiled and said we deal with it, they order it, we drive it lol.

I actually didnt try the seatbelts on the Prevost X3 that I got to ride on. If I get to ride another one, I will give them a try, but I ride Amtrak more than I do the dog.  

Not to say that the new seating is bad per se, because its still softer and more comfy than the older blue seating that Greyhound had before. The leather/suede combo is actually quite nice to the touch


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Are you sure they were actually D4500s? Only the 6600s are D4500s, even though they are it's the same thing as the 102DL3. A big problem with the Expresses is that a lot of routes use Express buses but are not branded as Express, even though they skip many stops.

BTW, I got to measure the seats on the G4500. They have a pitch of 32'' and a width of 17''. They will probably be replaced with the new order of 220 units as there are about that number remaining. Last one should leave 2015 or 2016. The 102DL3 will stay until 2020-2022.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Yep, they were both 66XX numbered.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Amtrak Cajun said:


> Yep, they were both 66XX numbered.



Wow, those are rare. I guess those are D4500s.


----------



## railiner

Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......


I don't know if that is new or from the first order. I think all the 86300s were built 2009-2010. Where was it going?

I just rode 86397. It was running Reno-Denver. I had come from San Francisco on a stinking 7104. Obviously the second bus was much better. I actually got some decent sleep with eye patches and made up some more after SLC. We took the scenic route, US 40.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if that is new or from the first order. I think all the 86300s were built 2009-2010. Where was it going?
> 
> I just rode 86397. It was running Reno-Denver. I had come from San Francisco on a stinking 7104. Obviously the second bus was much better. I actually got some decent sleep with eye patches and made up some more after SLC. We took the scenic route, US 40.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. You may be right. It just looked fairly new, and it was parked on the "wall", between assignments.

By the way, that ride on US 40 from SLC to Denver, I think is one of the most scenic bus routes anywhere.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if that is new or from the first order. I think all the 86300s were built 2009-2010. Where was it going?
> 
> I just rode 86397. It was running Reno-Denver. I had come from San Francisco on a stinking 7104. Obviously the second bus was much better. I actually got some decent sleep with eye patches and made up some more after SLC. We took the scenic route, US 40.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. You may be right. It just looked fairly new, and it was parked on the "wall", between assignments.
> 
> By the way, that ride on US 40 from SLC to Denver, I think is one of the most scenic bus routes anywhere.....
Click to expand...

That route sure is nice. The Denver-Las Vegas is good too, through the San Rafael Swell.

Most G4500s are in the West. Spotted loads in San Francisco. Every non-express was a G, and even some expresses got subbed one. Maybe they are refurbing the G instead of retiring them, a driver said some of them got new seats while keeping the old Road Rainbow. Sounds weird.

Do you guys (Adirondack) still have the 102B3, C3, and D3? If so, on which routes? Now that I think of it, that "MC-9" I rode was probably a 102B3.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I just found out that some G4500s have been fully refurbished instead of just repainted or with new seats. This means they won't be getting retired anytime soon, but the most damaged ones may still get scrapped. Then I found this picture from good old Birmingham: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9201639403/in/pool-go_greyhound/

I didn't know they still had G4500s running east of Dallas. I'm waiting to see how these buses run now, but I don't except anything spectacular. Might not have solved the problem of fires, breakdowns, broken restrooms, etc.

I also found a few pictures of the few new Van Hools Greyhound got, but the links bugged out. It was 83808, with a sliding door instead of the classic sedan doors.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if that is new or from the first order. I think all the 86300s were built 2009-2010. Where was it going?
> 
> I just rode 86397. It was running Reno-Denver. I had come from San Francisco on a stinking 7104. Obviously the second bus was much better. I actually got some decent sleep with eye patches and made up some more after SLC. We took the scenic route, US 40.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. You may be right. It just looked fairly new, and it was parked on the "wall", between assignments.
> 
> By the way, that ride on US 40 from SLC to Denver, I think is one of the most scenic bus routes anywhere.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That route sure is nice. The Denver-Las Vegas is good too, through the San Rafael Swell.
> 
> Most G4500s are in the West. Spotted loads in San Francisco. Every non-express was a G, and even some expresses got subbed one. Maybe they are refurbing the G instead of retiring them, a driver said some of them got new seats while keeping the old Road Rainbow. Sounds weird.
> 
> Do you guys (Adirondack) still have the 102B3, C3, and D3? If so, on which routes? Now that I think of it, that "MC-9" I rode was probably a 102B3.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't see this question earlier.....Adirondack has traded in all the older MCI's.....the only ones still in the fleet are the J's and a trio of D4505's.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I just found out that some G4500s have been fully refurbished instead of just repainted or with new seats. This means they won't be getting retired anytime soon, but the most damaged ones may still get scrapped. Then I found this picture from good old Birmingham: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9201639403/in/pool-go_greyhound/
> I didn't know they still had G4500s running east of Dallas. I'm waiting to see how these buses run now, but I don't except anything spectacular. Might not have solved the problem of fires, breakdowns, broken restrooms, etc.
> 
> I also found a few pictures of the few new Van Hools Greyhound got, but the links bugged out. It was 83808, with a sliding door instead of the classic sedan doors.


We still see an unrefurbed G here and there. Last week we had an older Van Hool that came from one of the Texas GL subsidiaries, not sure if Valley Transit or Americanos...

I wouldn't exactly call the Van Hool's entrance door a sliding door, although it appears to operate as one. It is actually a one-piece, plug type door that makes a seal as good as a 'sedan' door. It is similar to the two-piece plug type doors that MCI commuter buses have, as well as the old Eagles in our fleet, years ago.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw a new D4505 in the Port today. It was 863xx....forgot the last two digits......
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if that is new or from the first order. I think all the 86300s were built 2009-2010. Where was it going?
> 
> I just rode 86397. It was running Reno-Denver. I had come from San Francisco on a stinking 7104. Obviously the second bus was much better. I actually got some decent sleep with eye patches and made up some more after SLC. We took the scenic route, US 40.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm. You may be right. It just looked fairly new, and it was parked on the "wall", between assignments.
> 
> By the way, that ride on US 40 from SLC to Denver, I think is one of the most scenic bus routes anywhere.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That route sure is nice. The Denver-Las Vegas is good too, through the San Rafael Swell.
> 
> Most G4500s are in the West. Spotted loads in San Francisco. Every non-express was a G, and even some expresses got subbed one. Maybe they are refurbing the G instead of retiring them, a driver said some of them got new seats while keeping the old Road Rainbow. Sounds weird.
> 
> Do you guys (Adirondack) still have the 102B3, C3, and D3? If so, on which routes? Now that I think of it, that "MC-9" I rode was probably a 102B3.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry I didn't see this question earlier.....Adirondack has traded in all the older MCI's.....the only ones still in the fleet are the J's and a trio of D4505's.
Click to expand...

Never seen those D4505s. I sure wish they would trade in the J4500s and buy more D4505s. The Js have probably run a million miles each by now. Are Adirondack coaches all capital leased from MCI or someone else? Which routes do the D4505s operate?



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just found out that some G4500s have been fully refurbished instead of just repainted or with new seats. This means they won't be getting retired anytime soon, but the most damaged ones may still get scrapped. Then I found this picture from good old Birmingham: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9201639403/in/pool-go_greyhound/
> I didn't know they still had G4500s running east of Dallas. I'm waiting to see how these buses run now, but I don't except anything spectacular. Might not have solved the problem of fires, breakdowns, broken restrooms, etc.
> 
> I also found a few pictures of the few new Van Hools Greyhound got, but the links bugged out. It was 83808, with a sliding door instead of the classic sedan doors.
> 
> 
> 
> We still see an unrefurbed G here and there. Last week we had an older Van Hool that came from one of the Texas GL subsidiaries, not sure if Valley Transit or Americanos...
> 
> I wouldn't exactly call the Van Hool's entrance door a sliding door, although it appears to operate as one. It is actually a one-piece, plug type door that makes a seal as good as a 'sedan' door. It is similar to the two-piece plug type doors that MCI commuter buses have, as well as the old Eagles in our fleet, years ago.
Click to expand...

There's still plenty of unrefurbished G4500s in the West. As I saw hordes of the old Road Rainbows in San Francisco in early June. I don't know how fast Greyhound's gonna refurb them, it better be fast. I just hope they won't burn up or break down nearly as much as they used to.

Of course the pair of G4500s I rode on my leg to SFD were all in the old config. 7278 had a bunch of the lengendary duct tape around the windows and parcel racks. 7104 in Charter Services livery was even worse, paint falling off, the lavatory door wouldn't shut, smelling up the whole, bus, AC malfunction made it worse, and the axles screeched like a drill every time we made a turn. A huge amount worse than the D-series I rode on from Denver.


----------



## railiner

Adirondack is going to begin trading in the J's soon. The three D4505's were funded by the State of New York, and are restricted to operate only on line runs within the state. So no runs to Montreal or Toronto. The only variance is that they are allowed to travel down Route 17 thru New Jersey enroute to New York City. They are used mostly on Albany-Westchester- Long Island runs, all within the state. Also on locals from Albany to Kingston, or up to Warrensburg. They are okay, but are lacking in baggage space at peak college travel times due to the wheelchair lift taking up a lot of space....The company is not planning to purchase any more of them, but rather, Prevost H3's. NYT is also getting H3's, while Pine Hill is getting Van Hool Co2045's.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Adirondack is going to begin trading in the J's soon. The three D4505's were funded by the State of New York, and are restricted to operate only on line runs within the state. So no runs to Montreal or Toronto. The only variance is that they are allowed to travel down Route 17 thru New Jersey enroute to New York City. They are used mostly on Albany-Westchester- Long Island runs, all within the state. Also on locals from Albany to Kingston, or up to Warrensburg. They are okay, but are lacking in baggage space at peak college travel times due to the wheelchair lift taking up a lot of space....The company is not planning to purchase any more of them, but rather, Prevost H3's. NYT is also getting H3's, while Pine Hill is getting Van Hool Co2045's.


Now it seems that luggage space is becoming a huge issue with every bus. If the D4505, X3-45 both lack luggage space, then I assume the orginal D-series buses with a wheelchair lift also get packed with bags.

I know the H3-45 is very tall, allowing much space for the hold, but I thought it was designed for charters and tours. Is there really any bus out there that's designed for line-haul _and _has good luggage capacity?


----------



## railiner

The original DL's, and XL's without wheelchair lifts were just adequate for the most part, if carefully packed, when college students returned or headed to school. When the lifts were mandated, it sometimes became necessary to leave seats empty, as the cargo bays filled up before the seats did. This could have been prevented, if the carrier's strictly enforced the tariff limits on baggage and what should have been carried as 'express'. However, we are usually very liberal with our allowance, to gain good customer will, and also because for much of the time, our cargo bays are barely used, especially when on 'commuter' runs. It all sort of balances out.

As for good line coaches....for all their other faults, the 'J's' have good room, due to their height, as well as the rear location of the lift. the 'J' also has a very useful overhead compartment. Similarly the Van Hool's do well, due to their rear lift location. Neither of those two lifts encroach baggage space. The H3 does well, due to its tall height. The H3 makes a pretty good long haul line coach, although perhaps not as suitable for a commuter line coach account the extra steps to floor level....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> The original DL's, and XL's without wheelchair lifts were just adequate for the most part, if carefully packed, when college students returned or headed to school. When the lifts were mandated, it sometimes became necessary to leave seats empty, as the cargo bays filled up before the seats did. This could have been prevented, if the carrier's strictly enforced the tariff limits on baggage and what should have been carried as 'express'. However, we are usually very liberal with our allowance, to gain good customer will, and also because for much of the time, our cargo bays are barely used, especially when on 'commuter' runs. It all sort of balances out.
> As for good line coaches....for all their other faults, the 'J's' have good room, due to their height, as well as the rear location of the lift. the 'J' also has a very useful overhead compartment. Similarly the Van Hool's do well, due to their rear lift location. Neither of those two lifts encroach baggage space. The H3 does well, due to its tall height. The H3 makes a pretty good long haul line coach, although perhaps not as suitable for a commuter line coach account the extra steps to floor level....


This sure is confusing. So in the end there's not much difference between the J4500, H3-45, and C2045? I have ridden all three, and I think the H3-45 is a great tour coach, the J4500 left a bad impression becuase of multiple AC failures, and the C2045 had was unstable, which made me feel a bit sick.

That's just my observations, maybe the J isn't so bad, but I've heard many sotries about it's AC failing and other electrical problems. Not nearly as bad as the G4500, but not a great reliable coach. If the H3-45 is a good LD coach, then Greyhound should have bought that, not the X3-45. But the Greyhound DL3 luggage holds I've seen always have empty space and I rarely saw college students riding Greyhound on the LD services running from Denver.

Edit: Does bus speed and acceleration factor into this as well? I'd imagine that faster buses with better grade performance would be good for those long Western highways that cross mountains and deserts. I think buses with a longer wheelbase might have high top speed but poor grade performance. The D-series does go quite fast uphill, I hear it can go 50 up Berthoud Pass and 75 up Golconda Summit. In fact, I remember riding a DL3 that quickly passed three trucks in a row when going uphill, and I don't think much buses can do that.


----------



## railiner

I was only addressing the baggage capabilities in my opinion above.

For drivability, ride, and handling, my favorite among the current choices is the X3. The D would be my next choice, followed by the H3, then the 'J' and the Van Hool would be at the bottom....but JMHO......

(I can't comment on the Setra, having never driven one, but after a very short ride (just 3 miles), I would compare it to a Van Hool......)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I was only addressing the baggage capabilities in my opinion above. For drivability, ride, and handling, my favorite among the current choices is the X3. The D would be my next choice, followed by the H3, then the 'J' and the Van Hool would be at the bottom....but JMHO......
> 
> (I can't comment on the Setra, having never driven one, but after a very short ride (just 3 miles), I would compare it to a Van Hool......)


Actually, that's very similar to my opinions! I do doubt how a bus with the very long wheelbase combined with the wide air bellows of the X3-45 would perform in mountainous terrain, plus the X3-45 dosen't seem as durable as the D. This MCI fan will admit that the X3 rides extremly smoothly. 

Now it seems that everyone hates Van Hool! I wonder what Mr. F. V. H. has to say about this!

Edit: And hey, the irony is that Megabus is trying to advertise on this page for the most hated coach in America!


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## railiner

If you ever notice, the first choice of entertainer's, and other's owning top level motorhome conversions has been the Prevost XL for quite some time. These folks literally live in these million-dollar rolling palaces, so they are very demanding, and the Prevost is their favorite. They even make a special edition of the XL for conversions, with a raised roof, that ends up being as tall as an H3....

I got a chance to see NASCAR favorite Jeff Gordon's coach a few years ago, while it was getting factory service at the Prevost dealer in New Jersey. Unbelievable inside!


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> If you ever notice, the first choice of entertainer's, and other's owning top level motorhome conversions has been the Prevost XL for quite some time. These folks literally live in these million-dollar rolling palaces, so they are very demanding, and the Prevost is their favorite. They even make a special edition of the XL for conversions, with a raised roof, that ends up being as tall as an H3....I got a chance to see NASCAR favorite Jeff Gordon's coach a few years ago, while it was getting factory service at the Prevost dealer in New Jersey. Unbelievable inside!


Yes, I noticed that. I thought that the H3-45 would be a better option. Is the conversion XL that you mention derived from the LeMirage series or the X3-45? I though the XL-II was a version of the LeMirage? This gets even more confusion because one could argue that the X3-45 is derived from the original LeMirage.

I'm sure weathy folks prefer a faast bus over slower ones, so does that mean the Prevost X is the fastest coach available? I think it would be the X or the MCI D for the speed trophy because all the other coaches seem too tall or unstable to run fast.


----------



## railiner

Even the President travels in a luxury Prevost conversion for certain events. There was controversy when it won out competition for the honor over the MCI 'J', because it wasn't 'American made'. Well the MCI has Canadian origins as well, but I suppose more of it is made here than the Prevost....

The Secret Service made the selection based on certain undisclosed features of the Prevost construction, that they said made it easier to 'fortify' for the mission....

The Prevost catalog lists the H3-45 and the X-3 for bus use. It lists the H3-45VIP, the X3-45VIP and the XLII. for motorhome conversions or 'entertainer' coaches. I can't see the difference between the last two in the specs, although the XLII bus version , replaced by the X-3 had a shorter wheelbase than the X-3. The conversion XLII seems to have the longer wheelbase of the X-3. You are correct...the X-3 was derived from the XLII, which did bear the moniker LeMirage XL previously, And before that was the 40 foot LeMirage, and a long line of 40 footers going way back.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Even the President travels in a luxury Prevost conversion for certain events. There was controversy when it won out competition for the honor over the MCI 'J', because it wasn't 'American made'. Well the MCI has Canadian origins as well, but I suppose more of it is made here than the Prevost....The Secret Service made the selection based on certain undisclosed features of the Prevost construction, that they said made it easier to 'fortify' for the mission....
> 
> The Prevost catalog lists the H3-45 and the X-3 for bus use. It lists the H3-45VIP, the X3-45VIP and the XLII. for motorhome conversions or 'entertainer' coaches. I can't see the difference between the last two in the specs, although the XLII bus version , replaced by the X-3 had a shorter wheelbase than the X-3. The conversion XLII seems to have the longer wheelbase of the X-3. You are correct...the X-3 was derived from the XLII, which did bear the moniker LeMirage XL previously, And before that was the 40 foot LeMirage, and a long line of 40 footers going way back.


MCI used to be confusing with their D, E, F, G, and J at the same time in 2001, but now Prevost models are all messed up with all these derivatives and versions! The H3-45 even got shortened from the original H3-60! Prevost looks like it can't design an original coach right, but after some modifications, they become great succeses!

I think the flatter parts of the Prevost H3-45 might have made it easier to armour then the rounded-nose J4500. I'm not a Prevost hater, their H3 products are pretty good because of their high capacity and decent other features. X3 is a smooth, effieciient SD coach, too, despite the luggage problems. I'm just a MCI fan, and as you know, Eagles never get along with Giants!

BTW, I would still like to know the fastest intercity bus in service, since there's talk about fast planes, trains, and automobiles all the time, and it's about time the bus gets some attention, too!


----------



## railiner

Top end speed is limited in carrier fleets to approximately 72-73 mph by road speed governors. Occasionally you may find one that will exceed that. Motorhome conversion's often are not limited as severely, and are quite capable of 80+ mph....

Off-the-line, the Allison automatics will leave any 'automated manual' (like a ZFastronic or Volvo I-drive) in the dust. In the mountains though, the multi-speed automated manuals have the advantage with up to 12 speeds to choose from as opposed to the 6 speed Allison.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I know about the governers, I've ridden some units with 75 mph governers, that's about the highest I know of. Why do some units get governed at 72 mph, when no speed limit is actually that?

Since my relocation, I've been riding the G4500 a lot more and it's been easier to compile information about them. I might post some info when I can confirm their accuracy.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just got the latest rumour in the bus industry: Greyhound will remove all G4500 units from California after refurbishment due to California Emission Standards.

Now, how are they supposed to do this when at least 100 of these buses operate in California? And why after refurbs, when they could get a new engine?

Anyone know about this? I can't log on to Greyhound Through Express, so I'm just saying it here.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Just did some spotting at GLI-RNO. Saw four G4500 units, nothing else. Numbers 7234, 7238, 7241, and 7280. This just dosen't seem right, I've been so accustomed to DL3s, and now I can't find any! All these four were running Route 540 to SFD. They were all in Road Rainbow. 7234 and 7280 was heaviliy beat up. Not a great situation.

None of these were refurbished. Some still had the original blue rear end. I might post the details of each bus later.


----------



## railiner

Keep those 'G'unkers out your way, please.....the few we see are a few too many......


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Keep those 'G'unkers out your way, please.....the few we see are a few too many......


They're still no match for a Junkers! :huh: This is a bas situation with hugely high Amtrak fares and terrible Greyhound buses! Not a D in sight, it's just Gunk, Gunk, and more Gunk! :blush:

Edit: Just thought I would tell you about 7280. This thing had a HUGE 6-foot-long horizontal tear in the right side main panel, right where the passengers sit. It was covered with a crazy load of duct tape. Looking down, the right baggage hatches for Compartments 1 and 3 had both detached and were replaced with plain white hatches that stood out as gaps in the Road Rainbow. In the front, part of the bumper was also damaged. Distination sign was totally gone, it wasn't just broken, it was GONE!

_BUT_, the left side looked almost perfect! You could never realize this horrible piece of Gunk without coming to the right. Anyways, I couldn't see the back, since I was strolling around the loading area and the bus was nosed in to Gate 2.

Now there's my report, sire!


----------



## railiner

Yep....'G's should all come with baling wire, zip ties, and duct tape as standard equipment.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Yep....'G's should all come with baling wire, zip ties, and duct tape as standard equipment.....


Ha, yes! Looks like Greyhound isn't too happy at California or the West in general. I think that story about California Emission Standards is total bogus, how is Greyhound supposed to remove scores of G4500s holding down all service in the area? Too bad that CA dosen't care about Greyhound, in their transport maps they mention everybody except Greyhound!

At least the runs east of here to SLC and Denver are still D-exclusive. I just didn't see any last time because they were parked up in the garage that was locked up.

Situation is pretty bad in other terms, lots of smoke everywhere around and a huge sinkhole in the middle of I-80 dosen't help either. I don't know what Greyhound's doing right now, maybe using Beckworth Pass. No service alert right now.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why did Greyhound switch from the old reliable 4-digit unit numbers to the new 5-digit 86000 numbers? Makes no sense, just like the new planes going with -8, -9, and -10 instead of the old -100, -200, and -300.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why did Greyhound switch from the old reliable 4-digit unit numbers to the new 5-digit 86000 numbers? Makes no sense, just like the new planes going with -8, -9, and -10 instead of the old -100, -200, and -300.


That's a good question.....back in the good ole days, of GL, they had 6,000 coaches in their fleet, and did very nicely with four digit numbers. Now they are only about a third of their former size, and they have added those five digit numbers...... :huh:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Greyhound switch from the old reliable 4-digit unit numbers to the new 5-digit 86000 numbers? Makes no sense, just like the new planes going with -8, -9, and -10 instead of the old -100, -200, and -300.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good question.....back in the good ole days, of GL, they had 6,000 coaches in their fleet, and did very nicely with four digit numbers. Now they are only about a third of their former size, and they have added those five digit numbers...... :huh:
Click to expand...

I know right? It dosen't make sense. According to the DOT, Greyhound Lines only operates 1,323 units now. Sure, a fair bit more would come with the new order, but it's still nowhere near enough to justify a 5-digit number.

I never saw those days of 6,000 Greyhounds running on the road. By the time I was born, they were down to around 4,000.

I think the largest bus fleet under a single operator is 28,000 units operated by Beijing Public Transit. Could be others, but of course BPT needs 5-digit numbers!


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## railiner

Our combined fleet of about 150 buses also have five digit numbers---simply a carryover from the Continental Trailways-National Trailways days when the first two digits were used to identify the company....the 85,000 series GL buses are also part of that carryover, the '85' identifying them as former Carolina Trailways buses......


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Our combined fleet of about 150 buses also have five digit numbers---simply a carryover from the Continental Trailways-National Trailways days when the first two digits were used to identify the company....the 85,000 series GL buses are also part of that carryover, the '85' identifying them as former Carolina Trailways buses......


I can understand using 5-numbers for subsidiaries, like 30000 for TNM&O, 40000 for Vermont Transit, or 60000 for Americanos, but now all the new buses are 86000s, which is quite pointless.

For that matter, I managed to ride 52672 a few months ago, that DL3 used to be operated by Golden State Lines and no bus fans has spotted it in twelve years! Feels just like any other refurbished DL3. I heard it had a different engine, a Version P instead of Greyhound's standard Version R, but I'm not sure if it got the R engine after so many years.

I don't know the power ratings of these two engines, do you know?


----------



## railiner

To continue from the other thread......PD4104's, '06's, '07's.....all had optional power steering. The Eagles were later offered with power steering, as well.

There is no longer bus service across "The Loneliest Road in America"--Nevada US-50.....

I have driven it, and it was more desolate than even the AlCan Highway....We went over 100 miles on one stretch, and did not meet a single vehicle coming the other way!

Cell phones were useless. You could not even pick up a broadcast station on the radio. Only satellite communications would work out there...There were ample warning signs to be sure your vehicle was prepared to go 100 or more miles with no services available.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our combined fleet of about 150 buses also have five digit numbers---simply a carryover from the Continental Trailways-National Trailways days when the first two digits were used to identify the company....the 85,000 series GL buses are also part of that carryover, the '85' identifying them as former Carolina Trailways buses......
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand using 5-numbers for subsidiaries, like 30000 for TNM&O, 40000 for Vermont Transit, or 60000 for Americanos, but now all the new buses are 86000s, which is quite pointless.
> 
> For that matter, I managed to ride 52672 a few months ago, that DL3 used to be operated by Golden State Lines and no bus fans has spotted it in twelve years! Feels just like any other refurbished DL3. I heard it had a different engine, a Version P instead of Greyhound's standard Version R, but I'm not sure if it got the R engine after so many years.
> 
> I don't know the power ratings of these two engines, do you know?
Click to expand...

Do not, sorry....the only difference in our old 'D's, was some had the Detroit 60 series, and some had CAT's......the Detroit's were better for buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> To continue from the other thread......PD4104's, '06's, '07's.....all had optional power steering. The Eagles were later offered with power steering, as well.
> There is no longer bus service across "The Loneliest Road in America"--Nevada US-50.....
> 
> I have driven it, and it was more desolate than even the AlCan Highway....We went over 100 miles on one stretch, and did not meet a single vehicle coming the other way!
> 
> Cell phones were useless. You could not even pick up a broadcast station on the radio. Only satellite communications would work out there...There were ample warning signs to be sure your vehicle was prepared to go 100 or more miles with no services available.


You know, you can cross-quote from another thread with the "Multi-Quote" option. I remeber accdently making that mistake on another thread and ended up having to edit it out.

I'm pretty that road is the loneliest in America. It's basically nothing at all from Fallon to Ely, with some tiny towns like Austin. Could be great if you want to see a desert sunset, but it's probably very dangerous to get stranded there overnight unless you're prepared to survive. Would be good for a Man vs. Wild episode, despite all its faked parts.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our combined fleet of about 150 buses also have five digit numbers---simply a carryover from the Continental Trailways-National Trailways days when the first two digits were used to identify the company....the 85,000 series GL buses are also part of that carryover, the '85' identifying them as former Carolina Trailways buses......
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand using 5-numbers for subsidiaries, like 30000 for TNM&O, 40000 for Vermont Transit, or 60000 for Americanos, but now all the new buses are 86000s, which is quite pointless.
> 
> For that matter, I managed to ride 52672 a few months ago, that DL3 used to be operated by Golden State Lines and no bus fans has spotted it in twelve years! Feels just like any other refurbished DL3. I heard it had a different engine, a Version P instead of Greyhound's standard Version R, but I'm not sure if it got the R engine after so many years.
> 
> I don't know the power ratings of these two engines, do you know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do not, sorry....the only difference in our old 'D's, was some had the Detroit 60 series, and some had CAT's......the Detroit's were better for buses.
Click to expand...

Ah, that's too bad. I'll have to ask a mechanic unless the drivers know. The nearest Maintainence Center is Los Angeles, 500 miles away, so it's not easy to ask right now. I wish I could log on to Greyhound Through Express (the forum) but it dosen't seem to work for some reason.

I don't think MCI still offers any Detroit Diesels in their current D4505. Not very familiar with the Cummins ISX. Seems to offer good power at least, 425 hp is good compared to those teeny ISL with only 330 hp.

All I found from a search was this: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f19/detroit-diesels-series-60-r-rates-no-2-10-best-diesel-engines-ever-list-34955/. it sure feels like a good engine, the DL3 runs really smooth with them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Also, DesignLine just filed for bankruptcy: http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2013/08/16/charlotte-hybrid-busmaker-designline.html.

Don't know what NJT is going to buy now. Maybe they could try out the X3-45 Commuter or a New Flyer Industries deisgn. NFI has been known to make good transit buses, so maybe they can enter the intercity market. Greyhound needs all the buses it can get, and I would much rather them buy good New Flyers than the Van Hools. NFI is turning into a powerhouse by buying NABI. That basically secures the Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Miami transit markets.


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## railiner

Funny if New Flyer goes into the coach market. After all, their predecessor, Western Flyer, started as a coach builder, then ceased building coaches and switched to building transit buses around 1967......


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## CHamilton

FYI, New Flyer recently won the contract to build electric trolley buses for Seattle and MUNI.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Isn't New Flyer the only Buy America company that still build trackless trolleys? Gillig dosen't seem to build them anymore and the other ones have all gone bankrupt or stopped building buses altogether.

New Flyer sure has a monopoly, they better watch out for the trust-breakers. Orion was terrible, I'm glad they're done for.


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## CHamilton

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Isn't New Flyer the only Buy America company that still build trackless trolleys? Gillig dosen't seem to build them anymore and the other ones have all gone bankrupt or stopped building buses altogether.


I haven't been able to find any information about who else was in the running for the Seattle procurement, but I'm pretty sure they had some other bidders.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Orion was terrible, I'm glad they're done for.


Why do you say that? From a passenger standpoint, the Orion hybrids are pretty comfortable, and the drivers I've talked to love them.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

CHamilton said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't New Flyer the only Buy America company that still build trackless trolleys? Gillig dosen't seem to build them anymore and the other ones have all gone bankrupt or stopped building buses altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to find any information about who else was in the running for the Seattle procurement, but I'm pretty sure they had some other bidders.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Orion was terrible, I'm glad they're done for.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you say that? From a passenger standpoint, the Orion hybrids are pretty comfortable, and the drivers I've talked to love them.
Click to expand...

Orion VII NG CNGs I've ridden have all been slow, very loud, and bumping all over the place. The Orion V high-floors are a lot better IMO. I don't know the other bidders, I don't really follow transit bus news that much.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So, about Greyhound, why do they have a bunch of "uneven" runs that don't have a returning run? For example, there's a through coach running Houston-Miami (Schedule 1262) but there's no Miami-Houston. Also, San Francisco-Reno Freiday special (Schedule 8322) does not seem to return to SFD. Yet another example would be the Portland-Seattle Friday/Sunday special (Schedule 6540) which doesn't have a returning equivelent.

Any sense out of all this? Deadheads are the only solution I can think of. Waste of units, might as well run another revenue service.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So, about Greyhound, why do they have a bunch of "uneven" runs that don't have a returning run? For example, there's a through coach running Houston-Miami (Schedule 1262) but there's no Miami-Houston. Also, San Francisco-Reno Freiday special (Schedule 8322) does not seem to return to SFD. Yet another example would be the Portland-Seattle Friday/Sunday special (Schedule 6540) which doesn't have a returning equivelent.
> Any sense out of all this? Deadheads are the only solution I can think of. Waste of units, might as well run another revenue service.


There have always been some seemingly anomalies in GL's schedules. Without researching in detail the specific examples you cited, I will say that sometimes the 'employee timetable" which is the master bid sheet, will have built-in 'second sections' on certain runs in the other direction that would result in balancing a timetable.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, about Greyhound, why do they have a bunch of "uneven" runs that don't have a returning run? For example, there's a through coach running Houston-Miami (Schedule 1262) but there's no Miami-Houston. Also, San Francisco-Reno Freiday special (Schedule 8322) does not seem to return to SFD. Yet another example would be the Portland-Seattle Friday/Sunday special (Schedule 6540) which doesn't have a returning equivelent.
> Any sense out of all this? Deadheads are the only solution I can think of. Waste of units, might as well run another revenue service.
> 
> 
> 
> There have always been some seemingly anomalies in GL's schedules. Without researching in detail the specific examples you cited, I will say that sometimes the 'employee timetable" which is the master bid sheet, will have built-in 'second sections' on certain runs in the other direction that would result in balancing a timetable.....
Click to expand...

I'll try to do some Sautrday Spotting to see if the 8322 bus going back to SFD. The most popular run westbound is _usually_ Schedule 8315, afternoon local to SFD. I'm thinking the 8322 bus might go back as another section of the 8315, or I could just ask a driver at the station.

Another possibility is that the second section is run on Sunday afternoon as 8315 to get those weekend gamblers back home. Don't know about the 6540 coming back to SEA.

I still don't make sense of the Houston-Miami since there's no returning bus at all. I believe that bus comes back as the Orlando-Houston and it's probably ferried Miami-Orlando as an extra section on this popular segment of the Miami-Altanta through services.

Lastly, I found out that Greyhound might be considering a J4500 order. Found this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9206334776. I enlarged the picture and the bus appears to have all the new amenities of Greyhound but it has a 4-digit humber (6994). This number is confusing becuase 6977 is a D and 6990-91 is a G, plus 6998-99.


----------



## railiner

I believe I did once see a GL 'J' here, but it was an older one, probably acquired from one of the subsidiary companies.....the one in that photo is not the newest edition either, although it does have the current paint scheme....possibly 'refurbed'? Greyhound Canada has several from some other companies. We used to get them occoasionally during holiday weekends from Toronto. "ChaCo" and PNWC I believe they were lettered......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

It's puzzling that this one dosen't have a subsidiary number, it has a regular 6994 number. I can't find anything about where it came from. Even Greyhound Through Express has no reports.

Didn't MCI make the new J4500 look like the E4500? This one has the old "bald head" fornt end. I don't think the E is in prodcution anymore.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Here's a better pic of a refurbished G4500: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9437897219/. As much as this bus sucks, it does look pretty good in the blue colours!


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Didn't MCI make the new J4500 look like the E4500? This one has the old "bald head" fornt end. I don't think the E is in prodcution anymore.


Just looked at MCI's site. You seem to be correct.....they have dropped the low-selling 'E' from production. There really wasn't much difference appearance-wise in the E and the J, the E had the extra band of glass above the windshield, different taillight assemblies, dashboard, and more sophisticated electronics. It also had steerable tag axle which is now offered as an option on the J........


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't MCI make the new J4500 look like the E4500? This one has the old "bald head" fornt end. I don't think the E is in prodcution anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Just looked at MCI's site. You seem to be correct.....they have dropped the low-selling 'E' from production. There really wasn't much difference appearance-wise in the E and the J, the E had the extra band of glass above the windshield, different taillight assemblies, dashboard, and more sophisticated electronics. It also had steerable tag axle which is now offered as an option on the J........
Click to expand...

So what is that black bar above the windshield of the DL3? It dosen't look like glass, it looks like a thing piece of metal or some type of special composite material. And what about those big black rubber fairings around the wheels?

Edit: I remember now, the huge black "fairings" are called "skirts."


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Argh! Greyhound's website is undergoing maintainence right now. So I can't check today's loads. I think they're installing that new yield-management system. This should drastically reduce overbookings.

As far as loads go, to SFD, Sunday's afternoon and evening runs were all sold out, presumably the Friday special bus also went back to SFD as the "scheduled extra." Monday's afternoon Limited was sold out. No eastward buses were sold out, but the loads are usually not too bad either.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound is sending their new Van Hool demonstrators to YO! Bus, I found this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C1kuKE0f4.

At least this way, they'll be relegated to SD service. I would not trust a Van Hool for LD running.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

More weird rumours. On the Wikipedia page about Greyhound Lines, someone wrote "New Exclusive Information" that due to a fleet shortage caused by MC-12 retirement and ADA issues, Greyhound is now buying second-hand J4500s. They're looking for any on sale, checking it up, and pressing it into service. Maybe they'll buy some of those Adirondack J4500s that get turned in. These buses aren't very durable, I wouldn't place much trust on second-hand J4500s.

The fleet shortage seems to be making Greyhound desparate, they're trying Van Hool demonstrators, Setra demonstrators, and now outright buying any J4500 they can find in good condition. Next thing you know they might go for the H3-45. Man, Greyhound needs help!


----------



## railiner

Adirondack has not traded in any of its 'J's as yet, but will in the near future....

As for H3-45's....GLC has had a handful in their fleet, not sure how many....we see them rarely now. Last time they came down was over Thanksgiving holiday.

If Greyhound is so short of equipment, wonder why they don't refurb more of their DL3's, and install lifts into those not equipped. We installed lifts into the XL-II's and H3-45's in our fleet that didn't have them (we took them to ABC Bus in Minnesota for the work).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Adirondack has not traded in any of its 'J's as yet, but will in the near future....
> 
> As for H3-45's....GLC has had a handful in their fleet, not sure how many....we see them rarely now. Last time they came down was over Thanksgiving holiday.
> 
> If Greyhound is so short of equipment, wonder why they don't refurb more of their DL3's, and install lifts into those not equipped. We installed lifts into the XL-II's and H3-45's in our fleet that didn't have them (we took them to ABC Bus in Minnesota for the work).


Greyhound's doing their best with the DL3s. A driver told me that have been trying to rebuild everything they can, not only at Nappanee but also in their own Louisville and Richmond Maintainence Centers. I don't know about Richmond, it seems pretty busy without the rebuilding already, but Louisville has no O&D schedules so they have plenty of room to rebuild then send the units out on extra sections.

Back in January Greyhound rolled their 500th rebuild (#6977) into Indianapolis and ran east to New York. Seven monthes have passed, so I'm pretty sure they have 600 rebuilt now. They have about 800 DL3s in their fleet, so everything should be running line-haul soon. Greyhound lost dozens of DL3s that didn't have wheelchair lifts, the rest are only for Travel Services, no line-haul.

Further desparate attempts to counter the fleet shortages include rebuilding all the G4500s which _*were*_ slated for early retirement. In addition, spotters have photographed Van Hool, Setra, and Dina demontrators, all painted in base white with Greyhound decals. If any of them pass the tests, Greyhound could be forced to buy more of those to supplement the large order of 130 Model D and 90 Model X units being delivered right now.

I just saw #6247, a DL3 with no lift parked at the terminal here. It's got the older livery from 2004, but not the _oldest _original DL3 livery. It drove off somewhere running empty, I'm not sure where, probably to Indy for a rebuild. Hopefully they actually install the lift instead of just rebuilding the bus and sending it to Canada.

All this basically shows that Greyhound is doing every last thing they can to get more buses on the road. The progress isn't too bad, a fresh rebuild is getting on the road about every day and a brand new bus is getting delivered about every 2 days. Plus the influx of demo buses, second-hand buses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

More spotting today. Here in RNO today, 4 G4500s and 1 D4505. The units were 7028, 7165, 7190, 7268, and 86378. I arrived just at the right time to see the 2:50 PM Local departing to SFD. It was 7028, that bus wan't in great shape, but the load was good. 7165 was terribly damaged, the bumper was about to fall off, the door had a crack open, the trimming was all ripped up, a baggage hatch was missing, and paint was peeling off. 7190 was pretty good except for a bit of missing trimming and minor bumper damage. 7268 was also missing a baggage hatch and trimming. 86378 was the D, it was of curse immaculate. I think that one ran to Denver tonight.

I did notice that 7268 had its door wide open and its engine running but no one was in the loading area watching it. I walked right up to the bus for a picture and could have swiped it right under Greyhound's nose. Even the driver of 7028 was nowhere to be seen even though the bus was loaded and ready to go.

Another thing I saw was that all the buses had the correct destination sign, 7028 read SAN FRANCISCO and 7268 reno RENO. Pretty good job for two damaged buses.

A question I've had for a while: what's the difference in Greyhound lingo between a Limited and an Express? Which one is faster?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> More spotting today. Here in RNO today, 4 G4500s and 1 D4505. The units were 7028, 7165, 7190, 7268, and 86378. I arrived just at the right time to see the 2:50 PM Local departing to SFD. It was 7028, that bus wan't in great shape, but the load was good. 7165 was terribly damaged, the bumper was about to fall off, the door had a crack open, the trimming was all ripped up, a baggage hatch was missing, and paint was peeling off. 7190 was pretty good except for a bit of missing trimming and minor bumper damage. 7268 was also missing a baggage hatch and trimming. 86378 was the D, it was of curse immaculate. I think that one ran to Denver tonight.
> 
> I did notice that 7268 had its door wide open and its engine running but no one was in the loading area watching it. I walked right up to the bus for a picture and could have swiped it right under Greyhound's nose. Even the driver of 7028 was nowhere to be seen even though the bus was loaded and ready to go.
> 
> Another thing I saw was that all the buses had the correct destination sign, 7028 read SAN FRANCISCO and 7268 reno RENO. Pretty good job for two damaged buses.
> 
> A question I've had for a while: what's the difference in Greyhound lingo between a Limited and an Express? Which one is faster?


I always thought both terms meant similar--less imtermediate stops. In current GL usage, 'Express' is sort of a sub-brand name for mostly non-stop service between two major points, requiring a ticket specifically for a certain trip. I haven't seen the use of 'Limited' for a long time. They used it mostly in the 1930's to 1960.s on certain long distance runs on thru routes that only made limited stops, a way to afford some 'prestige' akin to railway limiteds of the period. They also used it on some so-called 'VIP XL Limited' trips in a few markets such as St. Louis to Kansas City non-stop, with personal radio service and other amenities around 1970.

Back in the late 1960's, the newly delivered MC-5 Challenger's roll signs for the Eastern Greyhound Lines division, had the regular city, and then a repeat followed by 'Non-Stop'. They strongly promoted their non-stop services during that era, especially on all the heavy corridor routes out of New York City. The 'world's longest non-stop bus route', was the New York City to Chicago trip via the Lincoln Tunnel, the New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Ohio Turnpikes, the Indiana Toll Road, and the Chicago Skyway toll bridge.

It made the trip in 16 hours or less, including three rest stops and two driver changes at turnpike plaza's. Later on, one of the plaza's was replaced by the then brand new Breezewood, Pa. Post House, so technically it was no longer a true non-stop. Eventually, I-80 replaced the NJ and Pa turnpike route, and with its shorter route, they added Cleveland as a stop, yet could still almost maintain the fast schedule. The Scenicruiser held down that trip until MC-7's eventually replaced them. Rarely was an MC-5 used on that trip except as a second section....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> More spotting today. Here in RNO today, 4 G4500s and 1 D4505. The units were 7028, 7165, 7190, 7268, and 86378. I arrived just at the right time to see the 2:50 PM Local departing to SFD. It was 7028, that bus wan't in great shape, but the load was good. 7165 was terribly damaged, the bumper was about to fall off, the door had a crack open, the trimming was all ripped up, a baggage hatch was missing, and paint was peeling off. 7190 was pretty good except for a bit of missing trimming and minor bumper damage. 7268 was also missing a baggage hatch and trimming. 86378 was the D, it was of curse immaculate. I think that one ran to Denver tonight.
> 
> I did notice that 7268 had its door wide open and its engine running but no one was in the loading area watching it. I walked right up to the bus for a picture and could have swiped it right under Greyhound's nose. Even the driver of 7028 was nowhere to be seen even though the bus was loaded and ready to go.
> 
> Another thing I saw was that all the buses had the correct destination sign, 7028 read SAN FRANCISCO and 7268 reno RENO. Pretty good job for two damaged buses.
> 
> A question I've had for a while: what's the difference in Greyhound lingo between a Limited and an Express? Which one is faster?
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought both terms meant similar--less imtermediate stops. In current GL usage, 'Express' is sort of a sub-brand name for mostly non-stop service between two major points, requiring a ticket specifically for a certain trip. I haven't seen the use of 'Limited' for a long time. They used it mostly in the 1930's to 1960.s on certain long distance runs on thru routes that only made limited stops, a way to afford some 'prestige' akin to railway limiteds of the period. They also used it on some so-called 'VIP XL Limited' trips in a few markets such as St. Louis to Kansas City non-stop, with personal radio service and other amenities around 1970.
> 
> Back in the late 1960's, the newly delivered MC-5 Challenger's roll signs for the Eastern Greyhound Lines division, had the regular city, and then a repeat followed by 'Non-Stop'. They strongly promoted their non-stop services during that era, especially on all the heavy corridor routes out of New York City. The 'world's longest non-stop bus route', was the New York City to Chicago trip via the Lincoln Tunnel, the New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Ohio Turnpikes, the Indiana Toll Road, and the Chicago Skyway toll bridge.
> 
> It made the trip in 16 hours or less, including three rest stops and two driver changes at turnpike plaza's. Later on, one of the plaza's was replaced by the then brand new Breezewood, Pa. Post House, so technically it was no longer a true non-stop. Eventually, I-80 replaced the NJ and Pa turnpike route, and with its shorter route, they added Cleveland as a stop, yet could still almost maintain the fast schedule. The Scenicruiser held down that trip until MC-7's eventually replaced them. Rarely was an MC-5 used on that trip except as a second section....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Greyhound still has the modern version of that old New York-Chicago non-stop route, now it stops at Cleveland, Toledo, and South Bend, but it only has two rest stops and the driver change is at Cleveland. That is pretty fast, taking just over 17 hours.

Have you ever seen that bus? What equipment does it use nowadays?


----------



## railiner

Today's arrivals:

Sked 4414-01 6485

Sked 1604-01 6404

$$$

Both DL-3's.......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Aww, I miss them DL3s! :blush: Haven't seen one since I saw 6247 in June! I think those you saw were rebuilt, too.

I remembered to take a look at the people lining up to board that bus. Nor a single college student. A bunch of seniors, a bunch of poor people, a bunch of bule-collar workers, a few travellers/wanderers, and a few suspicious passengers. But no college students. Zero. Nil. None at all.

What's that -01 behind the schedule number? I'm assuming it means the only section? What about the $$$? I'm probably acting real dumb right now, but I just want to know.


----------



## railiner

Today's arrivals......

Sked 4414-01 86078

Sked 1604-01 86237

$$$

Both X-3's.....

You are correct....'-01' indicates section number. Things are really slow this week. Even Sunday night only had the one section. They set up for two, but the 'double' was not needed.

As for '$$$', I did that from an ancient habit from the early 1970's when I was an Operations Supervisor for Greyhound at Omaha....whenever we entered a schedule movement into the ancient 'Greycom' computer (via paper tape!), that is how we ended the data entry...a far cry from B.O.S.S.........

Old habits die hard....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Woah, 86237 is brand-new 2013 X3-45! I looked up the schedules, 1604 comes from Chicago and 4414 comes from Detroit.

Schedules aren't very crowded here either. But as always, all the sunday afternoon skeds to San Francisco were sold out. I'm pretty sure they sent extra sections. There's always the weekend spare here from the Friday special in case all the skeds get overwhelmed. We also have loads of casino charters that are contracted to send gamblers here from California with fare included in the casino prices. I've seen three G4500s making rounds to the casinos. Must be good guarenteed weekend traffic for the Hound. Of course they always get the crappiest G4500s like 7104, 7165, or 7280 because Greyhound has no risk of losing casino traffic. Haven't seen 7104 in quite some time, maybe they sent that trash can for a rebuild.

About that rebuild, I hear they're going to gut the whole bus and give it a new Volvo D13 engine. I'm pretty sure that engine fits the CA Emission Standards, so they're probably not removing them from the West anytime soon.

What I'm wondering is whether the rebuild will stop the fires. I know there's engine fires, but what about the tag axle fires or electrical fires? Do you think the rebuild will prevent those, too?


----------



## railiner

I don't know that much about them to venture an informed opinion....

There were three ratty-looking 'G's in the Hoboken lot early Tuesday morning....

As for light loads....because of that, this has always been my favorite time of the year for vacation travel. The weather is usually quite nice, the children are in school, and for pass traveler's, it is usually wide-open. Also, popular tourist destinations are usually less crowded.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I don't know that much about them to venture an informed opinion....
> 
> There were three ratty-looking 'G's in the Hoboken lot early Tuesday morning....
> 
> As for light loads....because of that, this has always been my favorite time of the year for vacation travel. The weather is usually quite nice, the children are in school, and for pass traveler's, it is usually wide-open. Also, popular tourist destinations are usually less crowded.....


Yep, that's why I'm going on another trip in October. Should be nice for a short hop to California. Loads aren't light around here though, we got plenty of sell-outs. The following skeds were sold out today: Sked 8311 RNO-SFD afternoon Express, Sked 1436 SAC-PUT overnight Local, Sked 1431 PUT-SAC overnight Limited, Sked 6848 LAD-SFD overnight Express, and Sked 6749 SFD-LAD overnight Express.

Not as much as the weekends though, often a lot of the SAC-LAD buses are sold out too. But not too bad. I think the SFD-LAD is an Express and PUT-SAC would be Limited, not sure.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Check out my Flickr bus pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/with/9944741196/. John is not my real name, I'm Torsten, or Tor.


----------



## railiner

Thanks for posting...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

This is Friday now, so there's a bunch of sell-outs today. Sked 8309 RNO-SFD morning Express, Sked 8315 RNO-SFD afternoon Local, Sked 8308 SFD-RNO afternoon Express, Sked 8322 SFD-RNO Friday Night Special, Sked 1436 SAC-PUT overnight Local, Sked 6846 LAD-SAC evening Express, Sked 9606 LAD-SAC Cruceros overnight Local, Sked 6840 LAD-SFD day Local, Sked 6862 LAD-SFD overnight Express, Sked 6876 LAD-SFD overnight Express, Sked 6725 SFD-LAD scenic route day Local, Sked 6771 SFD-LAD day Express, Sked 6855 SFD-LAD day Express, Sked 6845 SFD-LAD day Express, and Sked 6849 SFD-LAD overnight Express.

The *SIZE* of that list indicates that this had been a *VERY *succesful weekend for Greyhound Lines here along the West Coast. I haven't checked PNW loads but I'm pretty sure they're good too. Today's SFD-LAD runs will carry about 600-700 passengers in total with 12 buses scheduled. Yeah, business is good even though college riders are virtually nonexistent. And of course the Friday Night Special is packed tonight, otherwise there would be no reason to run the special and pay the station crews overtime.

Now I'm hoping to ride a rebuilt G4500 in October. Have never seen any of those with my own eyes, let along ridden them.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Why does Greyhound have all these circuitous routes? I can just think of so many off the top of my head, NYD-PGH, ATD-DET, ATD-JAX, SLD-PHX, SFD-LAD, SFD-ARC. What's going on here?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why does Greyhound have all these circuitous routes? I can just think of so many off the top of my head, NYD-PGH, ATD-DET, ATD-JAX, SLD-PHX, SFD-LAD, SFD-ARC. What's going on here?


What do you mean by 'circuitous'?

They seem like ordinary point to point routes to me....some of them are a segment of a longer route, such as New York - Pittsburgh...part of a New York to St. Louis or beyond route. At one time thru from New York to Los Angeles......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Greyhound have all these circuitous routes? I can just think of so many off the top of my head, NYD-PGH, ATD-DET, ATD-JAX, SLD-PHX, SFD-LAD, SFD-ARC. What's going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by 'circuitous'?
> 
> They seem like ordinary point to point routes to me....some of them are a segment of a longer route, such as New York - Pittsburgh...part of a New York to St. Louis or beyond route. At one time thru from New York to Los Angeles......
Click to expand...

I've got some time right now so I can think about this, NYP-PGH sometimes detours throguh PHL, ATD-DET detours through NAS, ATD-JAX detours through CLG, SLD-PHX detours through Lambart Field and Glendale, SFD-LAD sometimes detours through SJO, SFd-ARC detours through OAK then doubles back.

Meanwhile, I've heard a bunch of crazy Greyhound stories today that I'll probably share in a different post, not this one.


----------



## railiner

I wouldn't call those you mentioned as 'detours'......they are just station stops on a thru route. Not all trips, especially longer ones, are non-stop. There is insufficient market for doing non-stop in all cases, and there is market need to serve intermediate points.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I wouldn't call those you mentioned as 'detours'......they are just station stops on a thru route. Not all trips, especially longer ones, are non-stop. There is insufficient market for doing non-stop in all cases, and there is market need to serve intermediate points.


I'm thiniing that NYP-PGH could just go directly to HAR on Interstate-78, ATD-DET could take Interstate-75 to CIN instead of going through NAS, ATD-JAX could just go through Macon, SLD-PHX could just bypass those two minor stop, SFD-LAD would only serve SJO if taking the Coast Route, Central Valley services should not go south to SJO then go across the mountains through Coalinga, and SFD-ARC could just go north across the Golden Gate Bridge and make a stop in Novato.

To replace the lost stops, just add ACY-PGH expresses, DLD-DET, more ATD-CHD, a MEM-MID, make ATD-NOD stop ot CLG, make the SLD-KCD stop at Lambert Field, make PHX-LVG stop at Glendale then run strainght to Kingman instead of detouring through Flagstaff, SJO would still be served by SFD-LAD Coast Route schedules, and the OAK pax could connect to ARC through SFD. Not that complicated if you think about it.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anyway, I heard something really weird happened at the Greyhound station yesterday, the DEN-RNO through schedule 1347 was apparently dispatched by OSC to run as the connecting schedule 8309 RNO-SFD. So the DL3 arrived here yesterday morning, then immediatly departed again, running through to SFD. There was no tire check or anything, it just got refuelled and sent back onto the road. It's very rare that we have DL3s west of here, and this time the bus basically ran through from DEN to SFD.

I also heard a rumour that the previous Friday Night Special G4500 had its lavatory door cave in on top of the toilet. I'm not sure what to say of that but it may have forced the aforementioned DL3 to run as Sked 8309.

How often does this happen with Greyhound? Why do you think that DL3 ran all the way to SFD? At least the through pax didn't need to get on another bus.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call those you mentioned as 'detours'......they are just station stops on a thru route. Not all trips, especially longer ones, are non-stop. There is insufficient market for doing non-stop in all cases, and there is market need to serve intermediate points.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thiniing that NYP-PGH could just go directly to HAR on Interstate-78, ATD-DET could take Interstate-75 to CIN instead of going through NAS, ATD-JAX could just go through Macon, SLD-PHX could just bypass those two minor stop, SFD-LAD would only serve SJO if taking the Coast Route, Central Valley services should not go south to SJO then go across the mountains through Coalinga, and SFD-ARC could just go north across the Golden Gate Bridge and make a stop in Novato.
> 
> To replace the lost stops, just add ACY-PGH expresses, DLD-DET, more ATD-CHD, a MEM-MID, make ATD-NOD stop ot CLG, make the SLD-KCD stop at Lambert Field, make PHX-LVG stop at Glendale then run strainght to Kingman instead of detouring through Flagstaff, SJO would still be served by SFD-LAD Coast Route schedules, and the OAK pax could connect to ARC through SFD. Not that complicated if you think about it.
Click to expand...

Most of the examples you cited are run as they are, because the schedule department determined that to serve the most traffic on the route, the stops were made as shown.

Where there are multiple trips on a route, some variances are made. For example on table 202--New York to Pittsburgh and beyond, most of the trips operate via Philadelphia and Harrisburg, and some other intermediate points, However, there is one schedule that operates via Easton and Allentown, to serve that market, (and that one then goes local via State College and Altoona), and there is a night express that does use I-78 also, but makes only a highway rest stop between New York and Pittsburgh.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyway, I heard something really weird happened at the Greyhound station yesterday, the DEN-RNO through schedule 1347 was apparently dispatched by OSC to run as the connecting schedule 8309 RNO-SFD. So the DL3 arrived here yesterday morning, then immediatly departed again, running through to SFD. There was no tire check or anything, it just got refuelled and sent back onto the road. It's very rare that we have DL3s west of here, and this time the bus basically ran through from DEN to SFD.
> 
> I also heard a rumour that the previous Friday Night Special G4500 had its lavatory door cave in on top of the toilet. I'm not sure what to say of that but it may have forced the aforementioned DL3 to run as Sked 8309.
> 
> How often does this happen with Greyhound? Why do you think that DL3 ran all the way to SFD? At least the through pax didn't need to get on another bus.


I am sorry to see the lack of thru schedules, with no change of bus, that was the hallmark of both Greyhound and Trailways systems back when....

You used to be able to go from coast to coast, and border to border over numerous and interesting thru routes. Often these thru routes were pool runs over one or more independent carrier's, and you sometimes got to see 'exotic' equipment on these runs, far from their home territory.

The reason for not running this way any longer, besides the fact that most long haul passengers fly these days, (even budget traveler's), is that there is but a shadow of the former network of maintenance bases that once were, and they cut all or most trips that do pass thru one of these. For example, between New York and points south, almost all trips require a change of buses at Richmond. Years ago, it was just the opposite.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call those you mentioned as 'detours'......they are just station stops on a thru route. Not all trips, especially longer ones, are non-stop. There is insufficient market for doing non-stop in all cases, and there is market need to serve intermediate points.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thiniing that NYP-PGH could just go directly to HAR on Interstate-78, ATD-DET could take Interstate-75 to CIN instead of going through NAS, ATD-JAX could just go through Macon, SLD-PHX could just bypass those two minor stop, SFD-LAD would only serve SJO if taking the Coast Route, Central Valley services should not go south to SJO then go across the mountains through Coalinga, and SFD-ARC could just go north across the Golden Gate Bridge and make a stop in Novato.
> 
> To replace the lost stops, just add ACY-PGH expresses, DLD-DET, more ATD-CHD, a MEM-MID, make ATD-NOD stop ot CLG, make the SLD-KCD stop at Lambert Field, make PHX-LVG stop at Glendale then run strainght to Kingman instead of detouring through Flagstaff, SJO would still be served by SFD-LAD Coast Route schedules, and the OAK pax could connect to ARC through SFD. Not that complicated if you think about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of the examples you cited are run as they are, because the schedule department determined that to serve the most traffic on the route, the stops were made as shown.
> 
> Where there are multiple trips on a route, some variances are made. For example on table 202--New York to Pittsburgh and beyond, most of the trips operate via Philadelphia and Harrisburg, and some other intermediate points, However, there is one schedule that operates via Easton and Allentown, to serve that market, (and that one then goes local via State College and Altoona), and there is a night express that does use I-78 also, but makes only a highway rest stop between New York and Pittsburgh.
Click to expand...

There's a schedule department? What's it called? I didn't realize there was a specific schedule department.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I heard something really weird happened at the Greyhound station yesterday, the DEN-RNO through schedule 1347 was apparently dispatched by OSC to run as the connecting schedule 8309 RNO-SFD. So the DL3 arrived here yesterday morning, then immediatly departed again, running through to SFD. There was no tire check or anything, it just got refuelled and sent back onto the road. It's very rare that we have DL3s west of here, and this time the bus basically ran through from DEN to SFD.
> 
> I also heard a rumour that the previous Friday Night Special G4500 had its lavatory door cave in on top of the toilet. I'm not sure what to say of that but it may have forced the aforementioned DL3 to run as Sked 8309.
> 
> How often does this happen with Greyhound? Why do you think that DL3 ran all the way to SFD? At least the through pax didn't need to get on another bus.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry to see the lack of thru schedules, with no change of bus, that was the hallmark of both Greyhound and Trailways systems back when....
> 
> You used to be able to go from coast to coast, and border to border over numerous and interesting thru routes. Often these thru routes were pool runs over one or more independent carrier's, and you sometimes got to see 'exotic' equipment on these runs, far from their home territory.
> 
> The reason for not running this way any longer, besides the fact that most long haul passengers fly these days, (even budget traveler's), is that there is but a shadow of the former network of maintenance bases that once were, and they cut all or most trips that do pass thru one of these. For example, between New York and points south, almost all trips require a change of buses at Richmond. Years ago, it was just the opposite.....
Click to expand...

Thanks, I do realize that. I just wanted to ask, why would Greyhound dispatch two connecting buses as a through bus? Seems bizzare to me. I've never gotten a connection replaced with a through bus.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call those you mentioned as 'detours'......they are just station stops on a thru route. Not all trips, especially longer ones, are non-stop. There is insufficient market for doing non-stop in all cases, and there is market need to serve intermediate points.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thiniing that NYP-PGH could just go directly to HAR on Interstate-78, ATD-DET could take Interstate-75 to CIN instead of going through NAS, ATD-JAX could just go through Macon, SLD-PHX could just bypass those two minor stop, SFD-LAD would only serve SJO if taking the Coast Route, Central Valley services should not go south to SJO then go across the mountains through Coalinga, and SFD-ARC could just go north across the Golden Gate Bridge and make a stop in Novato.
> 
> To replace the lost stops, just add ACY-PGH expresses, DLD-DET, more ATD-CHD, a MEM-MID, make ATD-NOD stop ot CLG, make the SLD-KCD stop at Lambert Field, make PHX-LVG stop at Glendale then run strainght to Kingman instead of detouring through Flagstaff, SJO would still be served by SFD-LAD Coast Route schedules, and the OAK pax could connect to ARC through SFD. Not that complicated if you think about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of the examples you cited are run as they are, because the schedule department determined that to serve the most traffic on the route, the stops were made as shown.
> 
> Where there are multiple trips on a route, some variances are made. For example on table 202--New York to Pittsburgh and beyond, most of the trips operate via Philadelphia and Harrisburg, and some other intermediate points, However, there is one schedule that operates via Easton and Allentown, to serve that market, (and that one then goes local via State College and Altoona), and there is a night express that does use I-78 also, but makes only a highway rest stop between New York and Pittsburgh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's a schedule department? What's it called? I didn't realize there was a specific schedule department.
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I heard something really weird happened at the Greyhound station yesterday, the DEN-RNO through schedule 1347 was apparently dispatched by OSC to run as the connecting schedule 8309 RNO-SFD. So the DL3 arrived here yesterday morning, then immediatly departed again, running through to SFD. There was no tire check or anything, it just got refuelled and sent back onto the road. It's very rare that we have DL3s west of here, and this time the bus basically ran through from DEN to SFD.
> 
> I also heard a rumour that the previous Friday Night Special G4500 had its lavatory door cave in on top of the toilet. I'm not sure what to say of that but it may have forced the aforementioned DL3 to run as Sked 8309.
> 
> How often does this happen with Greyhound? Why do you think that DL3 ran all the way to SFD? At least the through pax didn't need to get on another bus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am sorry to see the lack of thru schedules, with no change of bus, that was the hallmark of both Greyhound and Trailways systems back when....
> 
> You used to be able to go from coast to coast, and border to border over numerous and interesting thru routes. Often these thru routes were pool runs over one or more independent carrier's, and you sometimes got to see 'exotic' equipment on these runs, far from their home territory.
> 
> The reason for not running this way any longer, besides the fact that most long haul passengers fly these days, (even budget traveler's), is that there is but a shadow of the former network of maintenance bases that once were, and they cut all or most trips that do pass thru one of these. For example, between New York and points south, almost all trips require a change of buses at Richmond. Years ago, it was just the opposite.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, I do realize that. I just wanted to ask, why would Greyhound dispatch two connecting buses as a through bus? Seems bizzare to me. I've never gotten a connection replaced with a through bus.
Click to expand...

To my way of thinking, it is not bizarre, but logical to run a bus from Denver all the way to San Francisco, as they used to do, rather than terminate it in the unllikely point of Reno. Where a bus goes next, once its run is 'complete', could be anywhere that is in its pool territory. That they ran it 'thru; in the case you cited, was just coincidental, but worked out well.

Once upon a time, Continental Trailways operated their buses on a series of planned trips, in a scheduled operation, that allowed savings on licensing expenses....did not need so many mult-plated vehicles to cover a certain territory, and also, buses received very good maintenance, as they were assigned a 'home-shop' in their pool. Monthly mileages were all planned out in advance, and pool reciprocity was easier to coordinate.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry to see the lack of thru schedules, with no change of bus, that was the hallmark of both Greyhound and Trailways systems back when....
> 
> You used to be able to go from coast to coast, and border to border over numerous and interesting thru routes. Often these thru routes were pool runs over one or more independent carrier's, and you sometimes got to see 'exotic' equipment on these runs, far from their home territory.
> 
> The reason for not running this way any longer, besides the fact that most long haul passengers fly these days, (even budget traveler's), is that there is but a shadow of the former network of maintenance bases that once were, and they cut all or most trips that do pass thru one of these. For example, between New York and points south, almost all trips require a change of buses at Richmond. Years ago, it was just the opposite.....
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I do realize that. I just wanted to ask, why would Greyhound dispatch two connecting buses as a through bus? Seems bizzare to me. I've never gotten a connection replaced with a through bus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To my way of thinking, it is not bizarre, but logical to run a bus from Denver all the way to San Francisco, as they used to do, rather than terminate it in the unllikely point of Reno. Where a bus goes next, once its run is 'complete', could be anywhere that is in its pool territory. That they ran it 'thru; in the case you cited, was just coincidental, but worked out well. Once upon a time, Continental Trailways operated their buses on a series of planned trips, in a scheduled operation, that allowed savings on licensing expenses....did not need so many mult-plated vehicles to cover a certain territory, and also, buses received very good maintenance, as they were assigned a 'home-shop' in their pool. Monthly mileages were all planned out in advance, and pool reciprocity was easier to coordinate.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that DL3 was assigned the All-48-States ADA pool, so pretty much anywhere is in its pool territory. They all have only Texas plates now, no multi-plated units. There was really not much else it could have run that day, either going to SFD or, as usual, departing back to DEN in the evening.

I know they will still have to get off for servicing and refueling, like at every long service stop on a through run, but will they just be told the get back on the bus using a Reboarding Pass? Or will they need to use their original ticket for 8309, and thus having to lub their belonging off then back on?

Another weird thing happened today on the Greyhound Ticket Center, the Advance Purchase fares have been massively hiked, but the Web Only fares have been lowered to the previous Advance Purchase rates. So RNO-SFD was $10 for Advance, $12 Web Only, now it's $50 for Advance, but only $10 Web Only.

Any idea what's going on with the fares?

BTW, I finally managed to join GTE.

Edit: About the fares, I've noticed that they have gone lopsided throughout the system. Dallas-Los Angeles is $129 Advance Purchase, $95 Web Only. That's good news if you're riding that route. I'm not sure if it's still a G4500 primary, if so that would be the longest regular G4500 route at up to 38 hours.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I'm going to be riding some G4500s soon, I've noticed from previous ride that the bad smells seem to come from two locations, a vent at the front of the bus below the windshield and the lavatory at the back of the bus. The bad smells don't appear to come from the Air-Con vent below the passenger windows.

I can understand the lavatory problem when the latch on the door break, leaking the bad smells, but I don't know what's on the other end of the front vent. Someone wrote that the spare tire is behind the bumper, could that be the issue?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Another bus fan here spotted a D4505 going to SFD. This is getting really weird. Prehaps the G4500s are getting send for rebuilds. Or maybe the rumour is true, the G4500s don't fit CA Emissions so they're getting kicked out.


----------



## rickycourtney

Hey Swadian-

I'm not a Greyhound rider... But the Fresno station is right by my office.

I've noticed that over the past few weeks the station has been seeing mostly D4505 buses with very few G4500 buses.

Same story when I see buses out on the 5 or the 99.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Hey Swadian-
> 
> I'm not a Greyhound rider... But the Fresno station is right by my office.
> 
> I've noticed that over the past few weeks the station has been seeing mostly D4505 buses with very few G4500 buses.
> 
> Same story when I see buses out on the 5 or the 99.


Hey Ricky, very interesting. I'm surprised that you know the bus types even though you don't ride Greyhound. I went to the bus station this afternoon after work and I found a single bus sitting there, 102DL3 #85781, which was bought from Carolina Trailways. Then D4505 #86551 pulled in from SFD as Schedule 8306. That was a shock, since I've never heard of a D4505 running to SFD anytime recently. I noticed the number of the bus, it was a brand spanking new D4505! Talked to the driver, she says it just got delivered at the start of October. They had originally ordered 130 of them (stated in a news release), but apparently they took some more options without telling the media, otherwise the numbers would have stopped at #86536.

Talking more with the driver, she says that bus was sold out along most of the route, some pax got off at SAC and more piled on which packed all the seats, then a dozen more tried to board at RSV and one person was let on to sit right behind the driver, which is usually off-limits to pax. Then someone else managed to squeeze in at Colfax when another guy got out. Good business for Greyhound, that's for sure. Lot's of people coming over to gamble. Too bad I did not have my camera.

Now with the flood of new buses hitting the highways, I'm even more excited for my trip to Oakland next week. This is a LOT of new buses and Greyhound need every single one, because the G4500s are going out for rebuilds and business is booming. Packed buses everywhere you look.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Important Greyhound Lines schedule change: The Los Angeles-Mojave-Las Vegas route has been discountinued. Table 554, which previously displayed that route, now displays only Los Angeles-Palmdale local service, stopping at North Hollywood and San Fernando.

Please check the following site for updates to bus service: http://www.aibra.org/pdf/updates.html

Edit: Despite the above cutback, Greyhound has increased service elsewhere with their recent very large order of buses. They have reintroduced the Chicago-Dallas Limited service, once daily and a extra around the weekend. One Richmond-Dallas sked has been cut back to Memphis, but there are still two daily sked on that route plus the Cleveland-Dallas.

Greyhound has also introduced two twice-weekly schedules running Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami. These buses bypass Orlando, running along the coast. They may be increased to daily service if their is high demand.

I am glad to see Greyhound introducing a large number of premium long-distance services. This year alone they have introduced the New York-Miami, New York-Atlanta, and Chicago-Dallas. I hope to see more soon as more new buses arrive. They might be preparing for next year's 100th Anniversary after all.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Swadian-
> 
> I'm not a Greyhound rider... But the Fresno station is right by my office.
> 
> I've noticed that over the past few weeks the station has been seeing mostly D4505 buses with very few G4500 buses.
> 
> Same story when I see buses out on the 5 or the 99.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Ricky, very interesting. I'm surprised that you know the bus types even though you don't ride Greyhound.
Click to expand...

While I certainly love train travel the most... I'm a fan of all forms of transportation (planes, trains, automobiles and buses).

It's pretty easy to tell the difference from the rear end. The new D4505 have a much more modern look with LED taillights and a square air intake.

I can't tell the difference between the 102DL3 and the G4500.

What I have noticed is that some of the older models are still in use... But the D4505 buses seem to out number them 3 to 1.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Swadian-
> 
> I'm not a Greyhound rider... But the Fresno station is right by my office.
> 
> I've noticed that over the past few weeks the station has been seeing mostly D4505 buses with very few G4500 buses.
> 
> Same story when I see buses out on the 5 or the 99.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Ricky, very interesting. I'm surprised that you know the bus types even though you don't ride Greyhound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I certainly love train travel the most... I'm a fan of all forms of transportation (planes, trains, automobiles and buses).
> 
> It's pretty easy to tell the difference from the rear end. The new D4505 have a much more modern look with LED taillights and a square air intake.
> 
> I can't tell the difference between the 102DL3 and the G4500.
> 
> What I have noticed is that some of the older models are still in use... But the D4505 buses seem to out number them 3 to 1.
> 
> Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

Hmm, I think you made a mistake. The ones with the old tail end that has a big grille in the middle is the 102DL3, not the G4500.

I found some pictures. Here's a G4500 rear end: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery2/d/111200-2/DSC_0622.jpg. Here's a D4505 rear end: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5282/5199360349_944a471f81_z.jpg. And an 102DL3 rear end: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5877505262/.

I usually don't look at the rear end, it's easier to look at the nose. If it looks like a shovel, then it's a 102DL3. Very rounded at the top, then a D4505. Looks like a shark, then a G4500. Has a bubble at the top, then an X3-45.

I rode a G4500 to Oakland (#7076) and a D4505 back. The D4505 was brand new, #86549. I'll upload some pictures soon. I was told by Greyhound Security not to take pictures of the buses when I'm in the Greyhound station, but I can take pictures when I'm on the street. Weird, never heard of this. Have no idea why.


----------



## rickycourtney

I didn't make a mistake on my identification... but I didn't do a great job describing them! Haha.
The D4505 has that big flat area with a square air intake (I think that's what it is) on the top of the rear (on your picture, there is the unit number on the right side of the intake). I only see the coaches from the back because of layout of the station.

I have seen a TON of the D4505 coaches the past few weeks here in Fresno(I would guess about 60-70% of the traffic). They're good looking coaches!
The rest have been 102DL3 coaches (20-30%) with a few Crucero and Americanos coaches thrown in there. I can't recall seeing many of the G4500 coaches.

Hope that helps!

Oh and for your reading pleasure here's the restriction on photography from the "Traveling By Bus" section of the Greyhound website:



> *On Board Restrictions*
> 
> For everyone's safety and comfort, Greyhound asks that customers please follow certain restrictions while on board. Federal law does not permit smoking on Greyhound buses. We have a zero tolerance for alcohol, drugs, weapons and unruly behavior.
> 
> Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited. For your safety and the safety of those around you, passengers should remain seated while the bus is in motion. Audio, video and camera equipment should be stored with other carry-ons when not in use.
> 
> *No dogs, cats, birds, or other animals will be transported*. However, a service dog, trained for the purpose of accompanying a disabled person, will be permitted to travel with the disabled person at no additional charge.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I didn't make a mistake on my identification... but I didn't do a great job describing them! Haha.
> 
> The D4505 has that big flat area with a square air intake (I think that's what it is) on the top of the rear (on your picture, there is the unit number on the right side of the intake). I only see the coaches from the back because of layout of the station.
> 
> I have seen a TON of the D4505 coaches the past few weeks here in Fresno(I would guess about 60-70% of the traffic). They're good looking coaches!
> 
> The rest have been 102DL3 coaches (20-30%) with a few Crucero and Americanos coaches thrown in there. I can't recall seeing many of the G4500 coaches.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> Oh and for your reading pleasure here's the restriction on photography from the "Traveling By Bus" section of the Greyhound website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *On Board Restrictions*
> 
> .....
> 
> Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited. For your safety and the safety of those around you, passengers should remain seated while the bus is in motion. Audio, video and camera equipment should be stored with other carry-ons when not in use.
> 
> .....
Click to expand...

Yikes, that sucks! I've taken pictures in the station before but apparently I can't do it anymore. The drivers are usually OK if you take a picture inside the bus, it's the stations that are the problem. No one cares when you're in the bus, on the street, or at a rest stop etc.

Good to see those D4505s, the G4500s are probably all going for rebuilds. Los Angeles used to be "Gina Central", there were over a hundred of those based from the LAD garage. I guess not no more. IIRC, LAD was the first garage to get them back in 2001.

I did see a 102DL3 when I was leaving for Oakland, it was #6330 that was just pulling into the station. Our bus #7076 got delayed for the connection. Our driver said that bus was coming from "the East Coast" so it must have been the New York-Denver dispatched through to Reno. Railiner might know if #6330 ran in the East anytime recently. Greyhound is apparently doing lots of these through dispatching recently.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

On the System Timetable I just saw that Schedule 1247 is supposed to operate Orlando-Dallas. But when I try to book there is no through service for that route. I eneded up finding that 1247 actually runs Orlando-Houston. This is confusing, why would Greyhound mislabel their timetable to confuse everybody?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian-

Made a couple more observations for you:

While taking a trip down to LA on Sunday I saw a whopping 6 Greyhounds (5 D4505 and 1 refurbished 102DL3) on the 99 and I-5. Curiously on my trip back north on Monday I only spotted one Greyhound, a D4505.

Also the last few days when I've driven by the Fresno Greyhound station... I've probably seen 12 D4505 coaches sitting at the station since Monday and just one 102DL3.

Seems like the west coast is finally being treated to the nice new and refurbished equipment.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian-
> 
> Made a couple more observations for you:
> 
> While taking a trip down to LA on Sunday I saw a whopping 6 Greyhounds (5 D4505 and 1 refurbished 102DL3) on the 99 and I-5. Curiously on my trip back north on Monday I only spotted one Greyhound, a D4505.
> 
> Also the last few days when I've driven by the Fresno Greyhound station... I've probably seen 12 D4505 coaches sitting at the station since Monday and just one 102DL3.
> 
> Seems like the west coast is finally being treated to the nice new and refurbished equipment.


Hey, thanks for spotting! I don't know where Railiner went, he hasn't been active in a while. Hopefully all is well over in New York for him.

Greyhound is probably rebuilding the G4500s now, that's why they don't operate much anymore. When they're rebuilt, I really expect equipment complaints to drop heavily and OTP should improve greatly. I did see a G4500 in Sacramento, I posted a picture on Flickr. Not sure where that one was going, but taking what you say, it's probably going to Portland.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like Greyhound put some D4505s into BoltBus service based from Seattle. Found this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9240122681.


----------



## railiner

Back from vacation, (sigh).....

All is well....thanks for your concern....

I lucked out and missed a very busy Columbus Day/Canadian Thanksgiving holiday while on my annual Canada/New England cruise. Things are back to normal now until the big one (U.S. Thanksgiving). The only concern now is catching up with all the buses near their mileage limits for PM servicing, due to the busy holiday.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Glad all is well. I hope you enjoyed the cruise and vacation. You posted about that in the Ferry thread, but I forgot. I've got some more pics on my Flickr photostream if you want to check it out.

Another bus fan here _just_ messaged me (like a minute ago) that he saw #86555 running Sked 8308 from San Francisco. So Greyhound has at least bought 150 new D4505s.

False news releases.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Now that Greyhound has so many new buses, they should do something about the Sacramento-Portland. The overnight Schedule 1436 is always getting sold out, every day. Another freqeuncy is definately needed, but I can't see a good spot to slide it into the schedule. Sacramento-Portland already has four buses a day.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now that Greyhound has so many new buses, they should do something about the Sacramento-Portland. The overnight Schedule 1436 is always getting sold out, every day. Another freqeuncy is definately needed, but I can't see a good spot to slide it into the schedule. Sacramento-Portland already has four buses a day.


I would like to see them restore San Francisco- Portland service on the coast highway (101). Not likely, but it sure is scenic.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Today was extremly busy, or I would have gone to the station to see what buses they have there.

Also, snow season in kicking in, but no delays for Greyhound runs yet.

Edit: Deleted wrong info.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Recent spotters' info, yesterday's Sked 1347 which arrived in Reno today was operated by a G4500! He says it was 720?, he couldn't see the last number.
> 
> This is BAD! Railiner, see if you can spot G4500s running the Denver-New York. I want to see what's going on.
> 
> Today was extremly busy, or I would have gone to the station to see what buses they have there.
> 
> Also, snow season in kicking in, but no delays for Greyhound runs yet.


My friend made a mistake! That G4500 was actually running to San Francisco, not from Denver. The bus from Denver connects to another for San Francisco. The bus was #7209, and it was running Schedule 8309 to San Francisco, not Schedule 1347.

That clears up the confusion.


----------



## railiner

I saw a couple of G's at the Hoboken lot Wednesday AM....didn't see this in time to check what was running to DEN....if I remember, will look later....


----------



## rickycourtney

I happened to be in Seattle this weekend... apparently the Pacific Northwest is the land of the G4500. There were 5 of them at the Seattle station.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I saw a couple of G's at the Hoboken lot Wednesday AM....didn't see this in time to check what was running to DEN....if I remember, will look later....


Hey, what happened to the garage in Lower Manhattan? Around 29th Street on the west side?



rickycourtney said:


> I happened to be in Seattle this weekend... apparently the Pacific Northwest is the land of the G4500. There were 5 of them at the Seattle station.


Just what I thought. I guess Seattle is home base of them now. I used to live up there a long time ago, back then the MC-12s were new and they were the main forces in Seattle.

Anything else in Seattle?


----------



## railiner

Greyhound lost its lease on both the 30th Street lot, where buses were serviced, and repaired, and the 29th Street lot where buses were fueled and stored. They have been storing buses on the streets where possible, and over at Academy's Hoboken lot number 3. shared with Trailways of NY.

Forgot to check the equipment on the Denver run, sorry.....will try to remember tomorrow...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Greyhound lost its lease on both the 30th Street lot, where buses were serviced, and repaired, and the 29th Street lot where buses were fueled and stored. They have been storing buses on the streets where possible, and over at Academy's Hoboken lot number 3. shared with Trailways of NY.
> 
> Forgot to check the equipment on the Denver run, sorry.....will try to remember tomorrow...


Dosen't really matter, I don't like anywhere close to Denver anymore so it dosen't affect me.

You used to work in Omaha right? I'm interested, were there transcon schedules through Omaha? What about north-south schedules? Greyhound has bugged out of Omaha, the last bus left in December 2012.


----------



## railiner

I worked for GL at OMD in 1971,72, and 73....

Omaha was at one time the headquarters for 'Overland Greyhound Lines'. It was a very large hub, with mainline and branchline routes extending in all directions. It also had a large garage a few blocks from the depot. The depot, at 18th and Farnam, was an interesting 'art moderne' style, in vogue at the time of it's building in the late 1940's. It had lane style loading undercover, as opposed to sawtooth style platforms. It had the offices and restrooms on a balcony, and also had a Post House lunch counter, and several retail shops.

When I was there, Greyhound ran six thru transcontinental schedules basically on I-80 from points East, (New York or Washington) Chicago, Davenport, Iowa City, Des Moines to North Platte, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City and points West (Portland, San Francisco, or Los Angeles. In the summer months, they added three additional trips mostly going express. Also trips direct from North Platte to Denver were added. There were also a local to Grand Island via Fremont and Columbus, a local to Norfolk via Fremont, several shuttle trips back and forth to Lincoln, three more trips to Chicago via US 30, thru Ames, Cedar Rapids, and Clinton. There were five daily trips south to Kansas City, some continuing beyond KC. There were also five trips north to Sioux City, some continuing north to Sioux Falls, with connections north to Fargo and Winnipeg. There were three trips northeast to Fairmont and Minneapolis.

Even with nine trips a day west in the summertime, some of them ran in two or three sections regularly.

Not to mention, Continental Trailways also had a similar (although smaller) operation there out of their 16th and Jackson depot....

It truly amazes me how they could go from all that to what is now......

Only Amtrak remains basically unchanged from those years at OMA to what they have today....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I worked for GL at OMD in 1971,72, and 73....
> 
> Omaha was at one time the headquarters for 'Overland Greyhound Lines'. It was a very large hub, with mainline and branchline routes extending in all directions. It also had a large garage a few blocks from the depot. The depot, at 18th and Farnam, was an interesting 'art moderne' style, in vogue at the time of it's building in the late 1940's. It had lane style loading undercover, as opposed to sawtooth style platforms. It had the offices and restrooms on a balcony, and also had a Post House lunch counter, and several retail shops.
> 
> When I was there, Greyhound ran six thru transcontinental schedules basically on I-80 from points East, (New York or Washington) Chicago, Davenport, Iowa City, Des Moines to North Platte, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City and points West (Portland, San Francisco, or Los Angeles. In the summer months, they added three additional trips mostly going express. Also trips direct from North Platte to Denver were added. There were also a local to Grand Island via Fremont and Columbus, a local to Norfolk via Fremont, several shuttle trips back and forth to Lincoln, three more trips to Chicago via US 30, thru Ames, Cedar Rapids, and Clinton. There were five daily trips south to Kansas City, some continuing beyond KC. There were also five trips north to Sioux City, some continuing north to Sioux Falls, with connections north to Fargo and Winnipeg. There were three trips northeast to Fairmont and Minneapolis.
> 
> Even with nine trips a day west in the summertime, some of them ran in two or three sections regularly.
> 
> Not to mention, Continental Trailways also had a similar (although smaller) operation there out of their 16th and Jackson depot....
> 
> It truly amazes me how they could go from all that to what is now......
> 
> Only Amtrak remains basically unchanged from those years at OMA to what they have today....


Aw man, that sucks! I do remember that I once rode a throguh Chicago-Seattle, which is also dead now. Chicago Terminal has 24 gates but they are very rarely full anymore. All I can say is that with more buses rolling in, we can expect some degree of service increases over the next few years.

What do you think are likely candidates for service expansion? Following a previous trend, I think the expansions will be on more Limiteds. New York-Richmond-Nashville-Dallas, New York-Saint Louis-Denver, Saint Louis-Albuquerque-Los Angeles, and Los Angeles-Sacramento-Portland are all possible.

Something else I've noticed is that a lot of Greyhound timetables have missing schedule numbers. For example, on the Reno-San Francisco (westbound direction), Skeds 8305 and 8319 are missing "gaps".


----------



## railiner

You mentioned Chicago - Seattle.....I assume you travelled on the 'Northland Greyhound' route...that is Chicago-Minneapolis-Fargo-Billings-Butte-Spokane-Seattle.....when I worked for GL, they ran 3 thru daily trips on that route, and added an express during the summer months. At times, one of the trips ran thru from New York City. And they also ran several more trips west from Spokane, and east from Fargo and Minneapolis at the more populated ends of the route. And they had no competition from Trailways on that route.....Now most of that route is abandoned by GL. Amazing.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

The Halcyon Days of The Bus. Only today Aunt Martha takes Amtrak!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> You mentioned Chicago - Seattle.....I assume you travelled on the 'Northland Greyhound' route...that is Chicago-Minneapolis-Fargo-Billings-Butte-Spokane-Seattle.....when I worked for GL, they ran 3 thru daily trips on that route, and added an express during the summer months. At times, one of the trips ran thru from New York City. And they also ran several more trips west from Spokane, and east from Fargo and Minneapolis at the more populated ends of the route. And they had no competition from Trailways on that route.....Now most of that route is abandoned by GL. Amazing.


Yep, that was the route. Amazing limited bus service now. At least Reno still has decent service. I wish they would reintroduce Reno-Los Angeles and the Seattle-Phoenix, which are both unlikely.

I saw those Scenicruiser commercials before, I wish Greyhound still made commercials. Well, I've abandoned Amtrak in favour of Greyhound due to prohibitively high fares and poor schedules. This year's tally so far:

15 Greyhound trips, 5,400 miles, 5xD4505, 1x102DL3, 9xG4500.

0 Amtrak trips, 0 miles, 'nuff said.

It's not that I hate trains, it's just that I will NOT ride Amtrak. I'm not paying $51 one-way to go to EMY while sitting on the train for a full 8 hours. I still ride plenty of other rail. But for intercity transport in the US, Go Greyhound!

BTW, who made the current 102DL3 seats? I know G4500 has the Amaya Brazil and D4505/X3-45 has the American Seating Premier LS, what about the current102DL3 seats? I know they used to have different seats before EE refurbs.


----------



## railiner

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The Halcyon Days of The Bus. Only today Aunt Martha takes Amtrak!


What a great find.....thanks so much for posting those!

And as Louis Nye would say to Steve Allen......... Hi Ho, Steverino!


----------



## railiner

If you liked those, than you might like this.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTwXPMdGv9Y


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> If you liked those, than you might like this.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTwXPMdGv9Y


I watched that one too. I don't get the routes but I do get the meaning. I would upload some vids to YouTube if I had a video camera but I don't.

I'm still interested in those 102DL3 seats, what model are they?


----------



## railiner

Not sure what model, but I believe the DL-3's have American Seating, as well....although they might be National Seating....not sure, Perhaps you can ask GL corporate this one...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Not sure what model, but I believe the DL-3's have American Seating, as well....although they might be National Seating....not sure, Perhaps you can ask GL corporate this one...


I can't find anything like it on American or National Seating. This is really confusing, I'm looking for that dip in the middle and the rounded headrest bump at the top. All the seat pictures I've seen are either rectangular or have a separate headrest.

How do you ask corporate?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what model, but I believe the DL-3's have American Seating, as well....although they might be National Seating....not sure, Perhaps you can ask GL corporate this one...
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find anything like it on American or National Seating. This is really confusing, I'm looking for that dip in the middle and the rounded headrest bump at the top. All the seat pictures I've seen are either rectangular or have a separate headrest.
> 
> How do you ask corporate?
Click to expand...

There is a number here for the corporate office. I would tell the receptionist that you are doing research or something to that effect, and would appreciate being put in contact with someone from their purchasing department that could answer your question.......good luck! 

http://www.greyhound.com/en/contactus.aspx


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, it didn't work out! They wouldn't say what type of seat it was. Oh well, too bad.

This brings me to another question: I understand that on the 102DL3, each seat pair has its own overhead module with reading lights and a speaker. When Greyhound increased legroom on the bus by removing one row of seats, how did they make sure the modules would match up?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ah, it didn't work out! They wouldn't say what type of seat it was. Oh well, too bad.
> 
> This brings me to another question: I understand that on the 102DL3, each seat pair has its own overhead module with reading lights and a speaker. When Greyhound increased legroom on the bus by removing one row of seats, how did they make sure the modules would match up?


Wonder why they wouldn't answer....could be that they didn't know and didn't want to make the effort to research it, or possibly they weren't comfortable revealing that kind of info to someone they didn't know, or what the ultimate purpose was.....

As for the overhead modules, good question...have you actually noticed if they do match up? Perhaps they didn't bother, so now some rows have no module overhead, while the next row may have 2 modules......I'm not sure myself....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, it didn't work out! They wouldn't say what type of seat it was. Oh well, too bad.
> 
> This brings me to another question: I understand that on the 102DL3, each seat pair has its own overhead module with reading lights and a speaker. When Greyhound increased legroom on the bus by removing one row of seats, how did they make sure the modules would match up?
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder why they wouldn't answer....could be that they didn't know and didn't want to make the effort to research it, or possibly they weren't comfortable revealing that kind of info to someone they didn't know, or what the ultimate purpose was.....
> 
> As for the overhead modules, good question...have you actually noticed if they do match up? Perhaps they didn't bother, so now some rows have no module overhead, while the next row may have 2 modules......I'm not sure myself....
Click to expand...

I haven't paid much attention to the modules, I haven't gotten to ride many 102DL3s this year. If I ride one again, I'll try and see.

Greyhound also claimed back in 2001 that the G4500s had "more legroom", but I never quite understood how they created more legroom with 55 seats in a 45-footer compared to the 102DL3's old config.


----------



## railiner

I know you strongly dislike them, but the Van Hool's have better legroom than either the MCI's or Prevost's...

The reason is that their back seat is at the actual back of the bus.....the others have about a 2 foot equipment space between the rear bulkhead and the back. That is why the Van Hool's can offer an optional back window, while the other's can't. Spread that space out a couple inches to each row.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I know you strongly dislike them, but the Van Hool's have better legroom than either the MCI's or Prevost's...
> 
> The reason is that their back seat is at the actual back of the bus.....the others have about a 2 foot equipment space between the rear bulkhead and the back. That is why the Van Hool's can offer an optional back window, while the other's can't. Spread that space out a couple inches to each row.....


Oh, that's why the Van Hools can have 59 seats with a lavatory! That makes sense, but it's probably why they're so unreliable anyways, just isn't enough equipment space.

So the G4500 also had more legroom because it had smaller equipment than the 102DL3, but then again it's much more unreliable.

Pretty much every driver hates the Van Hools and Dinas (G4500) anyway.


----------



## railiner

You get no argument from me on that....the Van Hool's are considerably cheaper to purchase than the Prevost's and MCI's.

What was that saying.....'You get what you pay for'.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> You get no argument from me on that....the Van Hool's are considerably cheaper to purchase than the Prevost's and MCI's.
> 
> What was that saying.....'You get what you pay for'.....


Do you know how much it actually costs? I'm guessing about $400,000? Are you not allowed to disclose the prices? I mean, just tell me the list prices, no discounts and no extra options.

Thanks.


----------



## railiner

I'm not sure, but i believe you are pretty close. The Prevost and MCI are about 25% higher than that figure.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I'm not sure, but i believe you are pretty close. The Prevost and MCI are about 25% higher than that figure.....


Ah, I see, so a new MCI with no options would be about $500,000. Even more expensive with options. Thanks a bunch.

Any more news on the J4500s?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has posted a new Service Alert for rreroutes out of Denver due to severe weather. See: http://www.greyhound.com/en/servicealerts.aspx.

The reroutes involve the Denver-Portland buses which usually travel through Wyoming on I-80 via Rawlins. The buses now travel through Grand Junction on I-70. That's weird, I-70 weather is usually worse than I-80 because of the mountains. Pax get to enjoy the scenery I guess.

Why isn't the Denver-Reno getting detoured? It runs on US 40 which gets the worst weather.


----------



## railiner

Not knowing the actual weather,,,,there is a long distance between the two or three routes between DEN and SLC, and weather conditions can vary between each.

While I-80 is the best highway, the segment between Laramie and Rawlins via Elk Mountain, is notorious for blizzard conditions. When they built that road, the local rancher's warned the state that they were making a big mistake taking that route. Instead, they said they should build it over or parallel to US 30, the Lincoln Highway route, via Medicine Bow. Many times 80 is closed, and traffic is detoured that way.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Not knowing the actual weather,,,,there is a long distance between the two or three routes between DEN and SLC, and weather conditions can vary between each.
> 
> While I-80 is the best highway, the segment between Laramie and Rawlins via Elk Mountain, is notorious for blizzard conditions. When they built that road, the local rancher's warned the state that they were making a big mistake taking that route. Instead, they said they should build it over or parallel to US 30, the Lincoln Highway route, via Medicine Bow. Many times 80 is closed, and traffic is detoured that way.....


Why dosen't Greyhund detour vis Medicine Bow? They could still serve most of the pax along the regular route instead of going through Grand Junction. BTW, Greyhound no longer has a regular DEN-SLC route through Grand Junction, all Grand Junction buses are DEN-LVG.


----------



## railiner

Greyhound does detour via Medicine Bow, along with everyone else when schedules using 80 are affected. But in this case, perhaps the issue was more wide spread, or elsewhere along the route.

I am very surprised (I guess I shouldn't be, the way they have been abandoning routes), to see they no longer run a schedule from Grand Junction to SLC. I remember when there were four a day on that route....now the California Zephyr is the only way to go on that segment.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Greyhound does detour via Medicine Bow, along with everyone else when schedules using 80 are affected. But in this case, perhaps the issue was more wide spread, or elsewhere along the route.
> 
> I am very surprised (I guess I shouldn't be, the way they have been abandoning routes), to see they no longer run a schedule from Grand Junction to SLC. I remember when there were four a day on that route....now the California Zephyr is the only way to go on that segment.....


Argh, they did cancel that route a few years ago along with theGrand Junction-Albuquerque. They might restart the route as a Greyhound Connection route but the albuquerque route seems unlikely.

I saw on GTE that Greyhound has bought some cutaway shuttles for connection routes like the Springfield-Ottumwa. Seems like a smart idea compared to using a big 45-foot coach. Also heard on GTE that the J4500s come from Coach America and Lakefront.


----------



## rickycourtney

So speaking of Greyhounds new seats... How many people use the seatbelts?

I notice all new coaches have them (I assume it's the law). Personally I like them and I wear mine but I seldom see people using them on Amtrak Thruway routes.

Does Greyhound do a safety spiel after each major stop encouraging people to use them or is it on people to decide if they want to use them?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Nope, nobody tells you to use them, you don't have to use them or even care about them. But the good thing is, these Premier LS seats are designed to ensure safety even when passengers don't use the seat belt, they have very high seatbacks (like school buses) to cushion the impact and stop debris, the driver shield and the roof cap helps to stop debris as well.

Greyhound drivers seem more aggressive with these D4505s than G4500s, they drive faster and ride a lot smoother. I heard that if a G4500 accelerates too fast, the bus could catch on fire! Greyhound has too much padding in their schedules, the D4505s always arrive early even when there is congestion. They need to cut some of the padding. The biggest delay I had this year was 5 minutes and that was a G4500.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm still interested in those 102DL3 seats, what model are they?


I asked someone yesterday again about the seats....he says they are from Amaya.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still interested in those 102DL3 seats, what model are they?
> 
> 
> 
> I asked someone yesterday again about the seats....he says they are from Amaya.....
Click to expand...

Oh, you are the Bus Man! Big thanks! Yep, I found out on Amaya's website, those seats are Amaya-Astron Patriot PT: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/ES/productos/asientos_foraneos/patriot_pt/.

I also found this video about the modules in the rebuilt 102DL3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOjfHbR6OI. They do appear to line up with the seats.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Today a colleage got off a Greyhound from Sacramento told me he rode a "white bus that was dirty and smelled bad". I think it was a G4500, I haven't seen much 102DL3s around here and I haven't seen a white 102DL3 in a very long time.


----------



## railiner

No G's evident for a while here, but a few white DL's parked in Hoboken.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> No G's evident for a while here, but a few white DL's parked in Hoboken.....


No G at all? Where'd they go? Rebuild?


----------



## railiner

Where they went, I don't know, but wherever, I hope they just keep on going......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Where they went, I don't know, but wherever, I hope they just keep on going......


But they're bad buses, I wouldn't care less if they got scrapped. BTw, what's you Metroblue signature for?


----------



## railiner

Well now...finally!

I've been a member of this forum since March of 2009, and this is the first time someone was curious enough to ask about that....I was wondering if anyone ever would...

Back in the Penn Central era, when the new Metroliner's started operation, when the train starting rolling, there was a PA announcement for the crew that asked:

"Metro, blue?"......a few seconds later it was answered: "Okay, on the blue"....

I'm not sure, but I believe it was a check to be sure that all the trainlined doors had blue indicator lights that they were secured, or something to that effect, or perhaps all the brakes were released....it was probably the latter, because as soon as the okay was given, the engineer 'put the pedal to the metal', and we started accelerating rapidly.

Somehow, that memory just stuck in my mind thru the years and I just kind of adopted it as my signature here. I figured maybe someone would see it and know its meaning.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, I get it! I don't quite remember it, I did ride the Metroliners a few times in the 1980 IIRC. Was really small back then. Kinda like my signature, I've ridden the Hound over and over again so that operator tag got stuck in my head everytime I walked around at the rest stops. Nobody else notices it unless they're a serious bus fan.

Just like how no one notices the big air grille in the middle of the 102DL3 rear end. Even bus fans misidentify buses when they look at it from behind.

I've been trying to find an updated Greyhound roster but nobody on GTE has replied yet and the roster on CPTDB has glaring errors. Do you have a Greyhound roster that at least shows the bus types and fleet numbers? I don't need the operating pools but that would help too.


----------



## railiner

I'm on vacation (again!  ), next week, so I'll try to remember to see if I can get that for you the week after.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I'm on vacation (again!  ), next week, so I'll try to remember to see if I can get that for you the week after.....


Where to?

BTW, more bus service: http://www.timesargus.com/article/20131116/NEWS03/711169946.


----------



## railiner

A 'staycation' this time.....

Good news for Vermont....

But still not even a shadow of the service that the pre-Greyhound ownership, Vermont Transit Lines ran in its hayday......but then that statement applies everywhere, as well....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

What's a staycation?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What's a staycation?


A vacation where you stay at home or close to home.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's a staycation?
> 
> 
> 
> A vacation where you stay at home or close to home.
Click to expand...

Thanks.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I had the good fotune to spot a Greyhound running on the highway today. I had to run a quick errand after lunch and I was in another building. At about 1:09 PM, I noticed Interstate-80 out a window and then saw a MCI D4505 running westbound towards San Francisco. That must've been Schedule 8311, the 1:00 PM departure. That thing kept good pace with the other vehicles.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Since most Greyhound buses are rotated from thier home garage, I was wondering if the garage assignments are based on fleet number. For example, a lot of 6900-series 102DL3's have been seen in Dallas.


----------



## railiner

Does Greyhound in fact have "home garages" for particular buses? I thought that system ended years ago, when IFTA stickers replaced multi-license plated buses, that were plated for particular pools.... I was under the impression (perhaps in error, I will have to find out when I get back to work), that buses received their PMI and DOT inspections and services at whichever garage they happened to be near when it came due....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I'm looking through Greyhound's News Room and they have quite a few interesting releases on there. They've started a new Little Rock-Memphis locqal route via Bald Knob that will use small cutaway buses instead of full-sized intercity coaches. News Release here: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=533&year=2013.

They also announced flexible service plans for the Thanksgiving holiday season, estimating to carry over 500,000 passengers and touting their impressive nationwide OTP of 90%. News Release here: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=533&year=2013.

They've also relocated their stations in Oklahoma City, Nanaimo, and Madison, plus introducing an airport shuttle from Pittsburgh.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

railiner said:


> Does Greyhound in fact have "home garages" for particular buses? I thought that system ended years ago, when IFTA stickers replaced multi-license plated buses, that were plated for particular pools.... I was under the impression (perhaps in error, I will have to find out when I get back to work), that buses received their PMI and DOT inspections and services at whichever garage they happened to be near when it came due....


The simplest answer is that they do, but it really doesn't mean much. It's really just for accounting.

You may remember a few years back from the company newsletters that they revamped the fleet and maintenance programs. The idea was if they could section off buses to "home bases," they could have better control of mileage, service and maintenance. The program started in Seattle, found its way to LA and went East from there. They do have the general 48-states pool, but try to "plan" buses to be in their home base after x amount of miles. Fleet plans this out with feedback from the regional garages. Of course, OSC and the field dictate everything, so it hardly ever ends up the way they plan it.


----------



## rickycourtney

According to METRO Magazine 55 more Prevost X3-45 coaches are on the way in 2014.

As an outsider, what I find interesting is that Greyhound appeared to be very loyal to MCI for several decades... but since being purchased by FirstGroup in 2007, they have made a huge investment in Prevost.

By my count, 395 Prevost X3-45 coaches have been added to Greyhounds fleet between 2009-2014. In that time 218 MCI D4505 coaches were added.

It also appears that Greyhound is also being courted by Van Hool and Setra with both companies sending Greyhound some demonstrator coaches.

In my opinion, competition between motorcoach builders is great for Greyhound (lower prices, better products).

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from those of you with more knowledge of Greyhound


----------



## railiner

What you may not be aware of, is that for a long period of time, Greyhound owned MCI.....that ended in 1987 when the busline was sold off from the parent corporation...


----------



## MrFSS

What is the average price tag for one of these new buses, if you know?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I don't have Greyhound most recent fleet roster anymore but by my own count, Greyhound has ordered 365 Prevost X3-45's and 275 MCI D4505's. I'm not sure exactly how many of the D4505's but I know they start at unit 86300 and 86574 has been spotted so it's at least 275. However, Greyhound many yet order more since they obviously have the money to do it.

Each new MCI and Prevost runs about $500,000-$600,000, depending on the options and the discounts that the carrier receives. Greyhound must receive huge discount because they're buying a new bus almost every day.

OTOH, a new Van Hool C2045 costs about $400,000 list price. Since this imported coach is significantly cheaper then a US-made MCI, it most definitely uses cheaper construction, which may contribute to more accidents and more fatalities. That's why I won't ride Megabus again and that's why I'm glad Greyhound hasn't ordered any Van Hools.

Oh yeah, about that "equipment box" at the back of the MCI passenger cabin, I found out it's actually got two big air intake fans in them, not just an equipment box. So the coaches that have a rear window (and thus lack the simple air intake) must use a more complicated system that results in poor reliability and safety. This basically means any Van Hool, Setra, and most other foreign buses. Go Greyhound, No Rear Window for the Win!


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> According to METRO Magazine 55 more Prevost X3-45 coaches are on the way in 2014.
> 
> As an outsider, what I find interesting is that Greyhound appeared to be very loyal to MCI for several decades... but since being purchased by FirstGroup in 2007, they have made a huge investment in Prevost.
> 
> By my count, 395 Prevost X3-45 coaches have been added to Greyhounds fleet between 2009-2014. In that time 218 MCI D4505 coaches were added.
> 
> It also appears that Greyhound is also being courted by Van Hool and Setra with both companies sending Greyhound some demonstrator coaches.
> 
> In my opinion, competition between motorcoach builders is great for Greyhound (lower prices, better products).
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from those of you with more knowledge of Greyhound





railiner said:


> What you may not be aware of, is that for a long period of time, Greyhound owned MCI.....that ended in 1987 when the busline was sold off from the parent corporation...


It is my humble opinion, that MCI, which has had a checkered record of coach quality since its divestiture from the old Greyhound Corporation, under several different owners and a period of bankruptcy, is no longer building the great coach that they used to under Greyhound ownership. Indeed, their "Challenger's", knocked out of the business, the former "standard of the world", General Motors...albeit with some government interference aimed at their cozy relationship with Greyhound.

That said, I would agree that it is a good thing to have a choice of different manufacturer's and price ranges to select new vehicles from in general, as in any product...


----------



## rickycourtney

So going through the articles on the METRO Magazine website (which seem to be mostly regurgitated press releases, but I digress) it seems like there are 395 Prevost X3-45 coaches in Greyhound's fleet.

Here's the breakdown:

Spring 08: 50 coaches (33 to launch BoltBus, 17 for the line-haul fleet) (reference)

09/08: 140 coaches (reference)

04/12: 60 coaches (reference)

04/13: 90 coaches (reference)

11/13: 55 coaches (reference)

----------------------

Total: 395 coaches

The press release from Prevost seems to support these numbers (except they say there were 3 orders in 2013):



> Prevost announced that it has received an order for 55 more X3-45 coaches from Greyhound in addition to the two orders it received earlier in the year, for a total of 145 vehicles.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Out of the 145 vehicles ordered, 50 were delivered between April and September 2013. The 95 remaining coaches will be delivered in April and May 2014. Prevost supplied Greyhound and First Canada (both part of FirstGroup) with a total of 350 vehicles between 2008 and 2012, inclusively.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, that's 395 units. I had forgotten about the BoltBus because I was going by the Greyhound fleet numbers and BoltBus dosen't match with those numbers. But then again, Greyhound must have more than 275 D4505's because BoltBus has some too. Overall I'd say if Greyhound does another order for D4505's then they'll be matched equally with X3-45's.

I was wondering what type of engine those rebuilt 102DL3's have. The rebuilds started in 2011 so the new engines must be EPA 2010 compliant. The Detroit 60 ain't compliant so it must be something else, but I have no idea what. The options are basically Detroit 13, Cummins ISX, or Volvo D13.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was wondering what type of engine those rebuilt 102DL3's have. The rebuilds started in 2011 so the new engines must be EPA 2010 compliant. The Detroit 60 ain't compliant so it must be something else, but I have no idea what. The options are basically Detroit 13, Cummins ISX, or Volvo D13.


Here's a video from last year (Aug. 2012) on the refurb program.According to that... they're getting rebuilt Detroit Diesel Series 60 engines.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering what type of engine those rebuilt 102DL3's have. The rebuilds started in 2011 so the new engines must be EPA 2010 compliant. The Detroit 60 ain't compliant so it must be something else, but I have no idea what. The options are basically Detroit 13, Cummins ISX, or Volvo D13.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a video from last year (Aug. 2012) on the refurb program.According to that... they're getting rebuilt Detroit Diesel Series 60 engines.
Click to expand...

LOL, the seats and interior that they showed in the vid was from a D4505, not an 102DL3. And not all of the rebuilds are ADA-compliant, which is why so many got transferred to Canada.

But yes, it does answer the question about the engine. I think they rebuilt the engine to reduce emissions. The G4500 rebuilds will have a totally new Volvo D13 engine.

Thanks.


----------



## Scott

Hi I used to be able to take the greyhound bus from Palmdale ca, straight thru to Las Vegas for about a 4 hr busride.now I have to goto San Fernando then north Hollywood then LA and wait almost 2 hrs to transfer to another bus that stops at 2 other stations until I finnaly arrive in Vegas 9 hrs later.Why would they take out the service straight thru to Vegas from palmdale?

Thanks.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Scott said:


> Hi I used to be able to take the greyhound bus from Palmdale ca, straight thru to Las Vegas for about a 4 hr busride.now I have to goto San Fernando then north Hollywood then LA and wait almost 2 hrs to transfer to another bus that stops at 2 other stations until I finnaly arrive in Vegas 9 hrs later.Why would they take out the service straight thru to Vegas from palmdale?
> 
> Thanks.


Not enough Ridership? Greyhound has really cut down on Lots of its Routes that Dont run through Major Terminals!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Scott said:


> Hi I used to be able to take the greyhound bus from Palmdale ca, straight thru to Las Vegas for about a 4 hr busride.now I have to goto San Fernando then north Hollywood then LA and wait almost 2 hrs to transfer to another bus that stops at 2 other stations until I finnaly arrive in Vegas 9 hrs later.Why would they take out the service straight thru to Vegas from palmdale?
> 
> Thanks.


That service was Table 554 in the System Timetable. It operated Los Angeles-Mojave-Los Vegas, using G4500's based from Los Angeles Garage. It was cut back to Palmdale on 1 July 2013. Possibly the unreliable G4500's drove away passengers, causing Greyhound to lose money. Thus, they had to cut the route.

Prior to October 2012, the route was operated with smaller and more reliable MC-12 coaches, which did not meet the latest ADA standards, forcing their retirement.

If you wish to ride from Palmdale to Las Vegas, you can still ride to Los Angeles and transfer to Las Vegas. This is probably better for you anyway because the Los Angeles-Las Vegas route is operated with superb D4505 equipment.

Think about it this way, Greyhound saved money with the route cuts and used that money to buy more D4505 coaches, allowing the rebuild of the old G4500's.


----------



## NW cannonball

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't have Greyhound most recent fleet roster anymore but by my own count, Greyhound has ordered 365 Prevost X3-45's and 275 MCI D4505's. I'm not sure exactly how many of the D4505's but I know they start at unit 86300 and 86574 has been spotted so it's at least 275. However, Greyhound many yet order more since they obviously have the money to do it.
> 
> Each new MCI and Prevost runs about $500,000-$600,000, depending on the options and the discounts that the carrier receives. Greyhound must receive huge discount because they're buying a new bus almost every day.
> 
> OTOH, a new Van Hool C2045 costs about $400,000 list price. Since this imported coach is significantly cheaper then a US-made MCI, it most definitely uses cheaper construction, which may contribute to more accidents and more fatalities. That's why I won't ride Megabus again and that's why I'm glad Greyhound hasn't ordered any Van Hools.
> 
> Oh yeah, about that "equipment box" at the back of the MCI passenger cabin, I found out it's actually got two big air intake fans in them, not just an equipment box. So the coaches that have a rear window (and thus lack the simple air intake) must use a more complicated system that results in poor reliability and safety. This basically means any Van Hool, Setra, and most other foreign buses. Go Greyhound, No Rear Window for the Win!


Hey, Swadian -- 3 things

A lot of us here value your encyclopaediac contributions on all things bus (motorcoach)

Not inviting comments about Van Hools, you've made your (probably well-considered) opinion clear the last few years. I rode Megabus once 6 years back, will try to avoid, but won't rule out if the price is right.

What you posted about motorcoach prices seems in line with railcar costs, more or less, allowing for maintenance intervals and passenger capacity.

Have you ever considered changing your screen name to "Busmaster" (that would get a few of more tech-savvy computer geeks giggling (never mind, never mind, off-topic)

And, number 4, I ride trains, cause I like to, but a good bus is better than a train that can't get you there, or fails connection. Thanks for your ongoing contributions. Your advice has helped me.

Thanks, man


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks, you don't sound sarcastic to me. I won't change to "Busmaster" because I'm not Busmaster, I don't even have the newest Greyhound roster. A lot of my info comes from Railiner, the rest comes from research, talking to drivers, etc. I watched a video about the MCI 102DL3 and it showed the engine compartment, so I could see that there's two big air intake fans on top of the engine, whereas a Van Hool has them behind the engine.

I don't know too much about engine but I'm getting a better grasp on the basics. Very interesting pieces of machinery. Even if you don't know anything about buses, an imported bus being much cheaper than US-made just screams for suspicions.

I like to ride trains too, it's just that Amtrak's too expensive right now and their schedules don't fit my needs. But I do grab a quick rail ride whenever I can. In the meantime, I'll just stay off the rail discussions for fear of addidently threadjacking.

Besides, if I can save up enough money, I'll visit China next year and do loads of train rides at much lower cost than Amtrak. I obviously won't save enough money if I ride Amtrak everywhere.


----------



## NW cannonball

Hey, you visit China next year - get near Shangai - years back I found on the web that Shanghai was going to introduce "double bendy buses" local transit, piqued my interest. Probably that project failed, more or or less.


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## NW cannonball

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks, you don't sound sarcastic to me. I won't change to "Busmaster" because I'm not Busmaster, I don't even have the newest Greyhound roster. A lot of my info comes from Railiner, the rest comes from research, talking to drivers, etc. I watched a video about the MCI 102DL3 and it showed the engine compartment, so I could see that there's two big air intake fans on top of the engine, whereas a Van Hool has them behind the engine.
> 
> I don't know too much about engine but I'm getting a better grasp on the basics. Very interesting pieces of machinery. Even if you don't know anything about buses, an imported bus being much cheaper than US-made just screams for suspicions.
> 
> I like to ride trains too, it's just that Amtrak's too expensive right now and their schedules don't fit my needs. But I do grab a quick rail ride whenever I can. In the meantime, I'll just stay off the rail discussions for fear of addidently threadjacking.
> 
> Besides, if I can save up enough money, I'll visit China next year and do loads of train rides at much lower cost than Amtrak. I obviously won't save enough money if I ride Amtrak everywhere.


No, seriously, your posts on bus alternatives -- way way helpful. Amtrak riders and all us public transit users value your knowledge and bus expertise. Thanks for myself, and, i bet, a few thou people whom your posts here have helped.

Keep on posting. Very good info. Thanks again. Please don't minimize your valuable contributions. Lots of us readers thank you. Yeah, sometimes you be off-topic, who ain't :unsure: - but thanks again.

Yeah sometimes you wander off-topic -- you know - that happens - we all do - that happens a lot, - "{noli perspirare)"


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## railiner

NW cannonball, I agree with your sentiment....obviously Swadian is very enthusiastic about Greyhound, and enjoys helping educate others from his extensive knowledge where it can be of benefit to them.

Greyhound should be appreciative of his avid support as well, if they were aware of it....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound drivers are mostly nice but their contracted Security sucks! They keep stopping me from taking pictures of the buses. I guess BART is no better, AFAIK they also prohibit taking pictures. What's the reason of this stupid policy?

I really didn't think people were interested in this thread, for a long time it was just me, @railiner, and a few others that posted here. I'm glad to see that people are interested in Greyhound, I might make a general help thread that isn't so focused on specifics like "Where'd the G4500's go?!" But not right now.

Say, I have a question myself, how crowded is Greyhound during the New Year's travel season? I rarely travel in the winter so I'm not sure, but I expect heavy loads. I know Christmas is packed, what about the days before and after New Year's?


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## rickycourtney

BART doesn't prohibit taking pictures. Here's a summary of the policy:



> Amateur photography is allowed on BART by paying riders in the course of their travels under various conditions; permits are required for commercial photography.


 That's a pretty standard position from most public transportation agencies. What I find interesting is that Greyhound is really the only transportation provider that goes out of their way to stop people from taking pictures. Here's the official (confusing) policy:



> Photography, video or audio recording of Greyhound personnel, equipment or procedures is strictly prohibited. For your safety and the safety of those around you, passengers should remain seated while the bus is in motion. Audio, video and camera equipment should be stored with other carry-ons when not in use.


 What I don't get is that if photography "is strictly prohibited" why do they say that camera equipment should be stored "when not in use." If they're not allowed to be used... when would they be in use? Also since "passengers should remain seated while the bus is in motion", when would they use the restroom? When the bus is stopped at a station? Why not go inside and use that restroom?

What's even more confusing... is that Greyhound occasionally shares photos taken by passengers on its social media pages. Why would you tacitly approve of something that "is strictly prohibited"?

When it comes to photography Greyhound needs to lighten up and adopt a more enlightened policy. Nothing turns an excited passenger into a frustrated one faster than a contracted security guard telling them to stop taking pictures to document their exciting trip.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, it's even more annoying when you're an avid bus fan. "Come on now, I'm supporting your company, oh wait, you're not Greyhound employee....."

I don't know when Greyhound adopted that policy but I think it's basically for preventing people from badmouthing Greyhound by taking pictures of a burning G4500. They end up supporting your pics when you support them, but the contractors don't understand.

In the end, it really dosen't affect me that much.


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## rickycourtney

I think you're right... Greyhound probably instituted this policy to prevent passengers from taking disparaging pictures of their buses and terminals. But I stand by my prior remark... Greyhound needs to lighten up and adopt a more enlightened photography policy.


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## railiner

Could be simply "security theater" - post 9-11.....just like the ridiculous 'wanding' they sometimes perform on passenger's on line for departures......


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## railiner

Well we had a very busy Thanksgiving holiday here....extra sections were way up from last year. And as usual, the holiday brings out all of the 'mothball fleet'.....couldn't believe seeing an MC-12 here....22-- something or other...forgot last two digits.....thought they were all gone, but no.....there it was!

New Years holiday is fairly busy, but nothing like Thanksgiving...the days leading up to Christmas get heavy, passenger's tend to have a lot more baggage with gifts, etc., and college students carry a lot more with them than they do for Thanksgiving since school semester ends until mid January. The entire week between Christmas and New Years is heavy due to all schools closed. Lots of family travel over longer distances than Thanksgiving. Used to be heavy between here and Orlando, especially, Now, not as much due to more air travel, and GL not operating the fast thru schedules they used to. The Sunday after New Years will be heavy, but nothing like this past Sunday.

The holiday period doesn't really end until all the colleges go back mid to late January.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's interesting, 'cause I haven't seen any college students riding Greyhound in a long time. More and more individuals and family travel. Good or bad?

I thought the MC-12's were prohibited from operating scheduled service because they have no wheelchair lifts. Are you sure it was a 2200? I thought those were all scrapped or sold, they're 1993 MC-12's. Any 102D3's?


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## Swadian Hardcore

It appears that I made a mistake about those two big fans above the engine. Upon further research, it appears that those are the radiator fans, not the air intake. This really does explain why the G4500 keeps overheating and catching on fire. I'm not sure where the air intake is, but it's probably mounted somewhere close to the radiator. In fact, it could be those little openings to the sides of the engine.

Edit: This picture offers a good idea of what I'm talking about: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5995739713/sizes/o/


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's interesting, 'cause I haven't seen any college students riding Greyhound in a long time. More and more individuals and family travel. Good or bad?
> 
> I thought the MC-12's were prohibited from operating scheduled service because they have no wheelchair lifts. Are you sure it was a 2200? I thought those were all scrapped or sold, they're 1993 MC-12's. Any 102D3's?


It was indeed an MC-12. There were also several unrefurbed DL's. According to GL source, the 'white buses' are used for charter service, where they can still run without a wheelchair lift.

GL is probably the only company I'm aware of that puts their oldest buses on charters........charter service is not a primary source of revenue to them....they do very few.

That is not always true, as they recently had a large charter for a movie production here, and they held brand-new just delivered X-3's for the charter. Of course I should mention that one of them appeared in the film.... 

As for not seeing college students....that is inconceivable to me....here in the Northeast, college traffic accounts for the vast majority of GL passenger's, especially on Friday/Sunday during college session. Just check out the queue waiting on the New York City - Boston gate.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll tell ya, no college students ride around here! We don't even have much colleges around here. There is probably some college students, but either I haven't seen them or they don't look like college students. I've seen a few, but not much.

I'm pretty sure the guys with mustaches and overalls are not college students. Nor is the slouching middle-aged man with an old leather jacket. Most of the people I see on Greyhound are too old to be college students.

I could try taking a picture of the pax next time but they could get mad at me.

Edit: Oh yes, any G4500's pop up over Thanksgiving?


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## railiner

Since we were swamped, I never did get a chance to go over to the North Wing, hence did not notice any G's....(they are never used on the 'Upstate and Canada routes' that operate where I work in the South Wing).

More info on that MC-12 I had seen.....apparently it is no longer in revenue service, but has in fact been converted into a maintenance support vehicle--call it a glorified 'shop truck', if you will.....it contains various supplies and tools for mobile maintenance. It was stationed at the lot in Hoboken as a 'holiday command center', for dispatching buses and driver's , including "rental buses" from various other carrier's, contracted to supplement GL's vehicles Whenever they ran low at The Port, they would call them to send over more buses from Hoboken. They also had mechanics stationed with it. There are supposed to be some other's like it, scattered around the country.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So Greyhound definity didn't break the ADA rules by running a MC-12 in scheduled service. I thought that G4500's were used in the South Wing routes, I remember when they ran New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal. Plus, New York-Boston was one of their orignal routes.

Were there any 102D3's? Some of those have wheelchair lifts.


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## metrolinecoach111

railiner said:


> Since we were swamped, I never did get a chance to go over to the North Wing, hence did not notice any G's....(they are never used on the 'Upstate and Canada routes' that operate where I work in the South Wing).
> 
> More info on that MC-12 I had seen.....apparently it is no longer in revenue service, but has in fact been converted into a maintenance support vehicle--call it a glorified 'shop truck', if you will.....it contains various supplies and tools for mobile maintenance. It was stationed at the lot in Hoboken as a 'holiday command center', for dispatching buses and driver's , including "rental buses" from various other carrier's, contracted to supplement GL's vehicles Whenever they ran low at The Port, they would call them to send over more buses from Hoboken. They also had mechanics stationed with it. There are supposed to be some other's like it, scattered around the country.


That's hilarious. And I thought The Booth was a comedy club...

All jokes aside, its a very smart idea, especially since Greyhound doesn't have a maintenance facility in NYC.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

metrolinecoach111 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since we were swamped, I never did get a chance to go over to the North Wing, hence did not notice any G's....(they are never used on the 'Upstate and Canada routes' that operate where I work in the South Wing).
> 
> More info on that MC-12 I had seen.....apparently it is no longer in revenue service, but has in fact been converted into a maintenance support vehicle--call it a glorified 'shop truck', if you will.....it contains various supplies and tools for mobile maintenance. It was stationed at the lot in Hoboken as a 'holiday command center', for dispatching buses and driver's , including "rental buses" from various other carrier's, contracted to supplement GL's vehicles Whenever they ran low at The Port, they would call them to send over more buses from Hoboken. They also had mechanics stationed with it. There are supposed to be some other's like it, scattered around the country.
> 
> 
> 
> That's hilarious. And I thought The Booth was a comedy club...
> 
> All jokes aside, its a very smart idea, especially since Greyhound doesn't have a maintenance facility in NYC.
Click to expand...

Yes indeed, would be great to see some pictures of that old -12!

Edit: I saw your PM, but I would rather discuss Greyhound on the public board, just so that everyone can see anything about buses that comes up.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So Greyhound definity didn't break the ADA rules by running a MC-12 in scheduled service. I thought that G4500's were used in the South Wing routes, I remember when they ran New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal. Plus, New York-Boston was one of their orignal routes.
> 
> Were there any 102D3's? Some of those have wheelchair lifts.


Do you mean the unrefurbed ones? There were some in Hoboken, but I didn't see any used on the South Wing routes, which are New York State, and Canada. Every thing was either an X-3, or a refurb.(or a 'rental')....did see some D4505's, but they used them elsewhere...probably South or West routes.....

And they still have a couple of those Van Hools running...a white one and a red 'Yo Bus'.......they use those to Philly.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Greyhound definity didn't break the ADA rules by running a MC-12 in scheduled service. I thought that G4500's were used in the South Wing routes, I remember when they ran New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal. Plus, New York-Boston was one of their orignal routes.
> 
> Were there any 102D3's? Some of those have wheelchair lifts.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean the unrefurbed ones? There were some in Hoboken, but I didn't see any used on the South Wing routes, which are New York State, and Canada. Every thing was either an X-3, or a refurb.(or a 'rental')....did see some D4505's, but they used them elsewhere...probably South or West routes.....
Click to expand...

AFAIK, none of the 102D3's have been rebuilt. Some of the 102DL3's that haven't been rebuilt do have wheelchair lifts, so they can obviously be used to handle crush loads.

The D4505's probably ran to Denver, Chicago, Atlanta, or Miami, those places have quite a bit of D4505's in them, especially Denver. Looking at spottings, a lot of the D4505's in the latter two garages are GA-, LA-, and FL- owned. But I bet there's company-owned buses too.

What type of buses did Greyhound rent?


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## railiner

Oh....'D' not 'DL'...'My Bad' for missing that difference....no, did not notice any 40 footers other than the MC-12 'shop truck'....

Greyhound rents from many companies....Academy, Yankee Line, Raritan Valley, James River, and many more with just about anything you can imagine....


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## metrolinecoach111

Greyhound has contracts with most reputable regional charter companies in the US. I remember when I did rentals at Bolt I had to use the Greyhound approved nationwide rental list, even though our first step was to run upstairs to Peter Pan to ask.

On the Northeast side - they rented from Bloom, Land/Jet, Tremblays, Constitution, and Yankee to run NYD-HAR-BOS out of Boston and Hartford. Most of those sections were one ways and deadhead back. Those buses are a wide mix - some DL's, some Setras, some older Van Hools.

Thanksgiving brings a nice assortment of equipment to the North Wing


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## Swadian Hardcore

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Greyhound has contracts with most reputable regional charter companies in the US. I remember when I did rentals at Bolt I had to use the Greyhound approved nationwide rental list, even though our first step was to run upstairs to Peter Pan to ask.
> 
> On the Northeast side - they rented from Bloom, Land/Jet, Tremblays, Constitution, and Yankee to run NYD-HAR-BOS out of Boston and Hartford. Most of those sections were one ways and deadhead back. Those buses are a wide mix - some DL's, some Setras, some older Van Hools.
> 
> Thanksgiving brings a nice assortment of equipment to the North Wing


You work in the North Wing? What are the buses to Denver now?


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## railiner

Saw a G----I think it was 7171 in The Port yesterday....it was between assignments in the North Wing being cleaned. Not sure what trips it was used on....

What a difference a week makes in traffic....very quiet, as the weekend following a busy hoiiday weekend usually is.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I remember that Greyhound Canada uses thick dark blue seats, made of something feeling like wool. I haven't seen anything like it on the Greyhounds in the US. I'm trying to find out what model of seats these are. Does anyone know?

Here's a picture:

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1123_front.jpg. Yes, that's in Fort Nelson, so he might've been riding to Whitehorse.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I remember that Greyhound Canada uses thick dark blue seats, made of something feeling like wool. I haven't seen anything like it on the Greyhounds in the US. I'm trying to find out what model of seats these are. Does anyone know?
> 
> Here's a picture:
> 
> http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1123_front.jpg. Yes, that's in Fort Nelson, so he might've been riding to Whitehorse.


Nice shot....interesting that GLC used to have amenenites like doors on the overheads, and video systems unlike their US counterparts......


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember that Greyhound Canada uses thick dark blue seats, made of something feeling like wool. I haven't seen anything like it on the Greyhounds in the US. I'm trying to find out what model of seats these are. Does anyone know?
> 
> Here's a picture:
> 
> http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1123_front.jpg. Yes, that's in Fort Nelson, so he might've been riding to Whitehorse.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice shot....interesting that GLC used to have amenenites like doors on the overheads, and video systems unlike their US counterparts......
Click to expand...

Really is more of a hassle than a good amenity, the doors on the racks block larger items that could stick out and the TV's have audio that blares boring G-rated movies.


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## railiner

Well we can debate the pro's and con's of having enclosed overhead bins, but as far as the video....we always use them on line runs with the speakers turned off.....passenger's can plug in their headsets if they wish to hear the soundtrack. The speakers are there if say the bus is on a charter, and the group decides to use the speakers....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, I remember the Adirondack Trailways buses have a plugin at the back of each seat where you stick in some headphones and you can listen. I aslo remember a number with an up and down arrow, not sure what that meant.

Greyhound Canada dosen't have that AFAIK, so I guess line haul pax have to deal with the annyoning audio. Here's a back view of some G4500 seats showing the video monitors: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1199_lift.jpg

The first pic I linked was of a 102DL3 interior, the G4500 seems to have a very similar interior, except with the bigger parcel racks and a flat ceiling instead of the rounded one on the 102DL3. I would still like to know more about these seats.

I got all them pics from here, check out some of those weird interiors: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/interior/.


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## Swadian Hardcore

During Thanksgiving, were there any third sections? Obviously second sections, but what about more?

And why are Greyhound Canada buses always losing paint and getting very dirty on the outside?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> During Thanksgiving, were there any third sections? Obviously second sections, but what about more?
> 
> And why are Greyhound Canada buses always losing paint and getting very dirty on the outside?


Any third sections?....Hahaha....the 10:00 AM schedule, No. 250, from New York to Toronto and intermediate points departed in twenty seven sections! Just one schedule on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. It took two hours to load those. You would have to see it to believe it..... 

As for losing paint...just a guess, they use a lot of sand for traction on icy roads. The sand literally 'sandblasts' away paint. Dirt comes from wet roads....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yes, I remember the Adirondack Trailways buses have a plugin at the back of each seat where you stick in some headphones and you can listen. I aslo remember a number with an up and down arrow, not sure what that meant.
> 
> Greyhound Canada dosen't have that AFAIK, so I guess line haul pax have to deal with the annyoning audio. Here's a back view of some G4500 seats showing the video monitors: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1199_lift.jpg
> 
> The first pic I linked was of a 102DL3 interior, the G4500 seems to have a very similar interior, except with the bigger parcel racks and a flat ceiling instead of the rounded one on the 102DL3. I would still like to know more about these seats.
> 
> I got all them pics from here, check out some of those weird interiors: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/interior/.


When they introduced the X3-45 Greyhound made a big deal about the fact that they had eliminated in the middle seat in the last row. IMHO, that was a great move because almost everyone hates to be squeezed between two people.

But seeing these pictures... why did they leave the middle seat during the refurbishment of the 102DL3 coaches? Are these new seats just sitting on the old frames or are they leather covers over the original seats? That would be a logical technical reason for leaving them. But if these are new seats... why would they order a 3-across back row and why would they order a different seat model than what they use on the D4505 & X3-45?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, 27 sections! I bet our New Year's Eve run would have 2 buses due to the popularity of winter sports here.

Greyhound Canada buses in the old Red, White, and Blue seems to lose the red on their Maple Leaf a lot. Look at this: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1060_2.jpg. The leaf is supposed to be red but it's faded to white yet the rest of the coach looks to be in good condition.

With the help of Railiner, I determined that the 102DL3 has the Amaya-Astron Patriot PT seats. These seats were installed in the 102DL3 during the Elevate Everything refurbs conducted from 2004 to about 2008, not the latest rebuilds. During the latest rebuilds, all these seats were taken out of the bus and resurfaced with leather. Then they were put back into the bus, minus one row for extra legroom. That's why there's still the three seats in the back. Here is a view of the current 102DL3 interior: http://busride.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Napp-web-2.jpg.

The newer D4505 and X3-45 coaches have American Seating Premier LS, they don't have the middle seat in the back. But these seats are harder and less comfortable than the Patriot PT, so I still prefer the 102DL3. Interior of a D4505: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5369434956. You can see it's different from the 102DL3.

I actually like the three seats for overnight trips, if you can "take them over", you can sprawl out and sleep. Then again, I've never been squeezed into the middle.

Right now, not very happy at the hate mail against Greyhound by fans of Scania and Irizar, which are known for making luxurious but mechanically flawed buses. I would rather ride a Greyhound 102DL3 before I ride a Irizar PB Sleeper.

I'm still trying to find out the make and model of the Greyhound Canada seats.


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## railiner

Agree that the newest type seats are not as comfortable as the older type...part of it may be because they are of a DOT mandated "containment" design, similar to school bus seats, that will keep passengers from being thrown out even if they don't use the integral seatbelts......

As for the red Maple Leafs,,,,it seems that certain applications of red paint or coloring tend to 'bleach out' from the sun over time.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, I'll have to ask on GTE about the Greyhound Canada seats. Nobody seems to check GTE anymore, which is giving me problems. Even when I asked for a roster, no one replied with anything.

I wonder why that New York-Toronto was so popular, the Canadians don't celebrate Thanksgiving at the same time as us. And Sked 250 must be a daytime run, I thought the overnights were more popular.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ah, I'll have to ask on GTE about the Greyhound Canada seats. Nobody seems to check GTE anymore, which is giving me problems. Even when I asked for a roster, no one replied with anything.
> 
> I wonder why that New York-Toronto was so popular, the Canadians don't celebrate Thanksgiving at the same time as us. And Sked 250 must be a daytime run, I thought the overnights were more popular.


Schedule 250 was just chosen as an example, during the middle of my shift.....most of the travel was to Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo.....especially Syracuse.

It also served as a connection to Erie, Cleveland, and points west, as there is no Cleveland express until 5:45 PM, and this particular schedule seems to get more Cleveland's than the somewhat shorter route thru Pittsburgh.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I'll have to ask on GTE about the Greyhound Canada seats. Nobody seems to check GTE anymore, which is giving me problems. Even when I asked for a roster, no one replied with anything.
> 
> I wonder why that New York-Toronto was so popular, the Canadians don't celebrate Thanksgiving at the same time as us. And Sked 250 must be a daytime run, I thought the overnights were more popular.
> 
> 
> 
> Schedule 250 was just chosen as an example, during the middle of my shift.....most of the travel was to Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo.....especially Syracuse.
> 
> It also served as a connection to Erie, Cleveland, and points west, as there is no Cleveland express until 5:45 PM, and this particular schedule seems to get more Cleveland's than the somewhat shorter route thru Pittsburgh.....
Click to expand...

That Cleveland coach at 5:45 PM is the Limited to Detroit, right? I guess all pax to Detroit would take that run, but it's not so good for arriving in Cleveland in the middle of the night. Better off taking the Chicago Limited at 10:15 PM.

From what I can see, the Limiteds are much faster than any schedules with transfers. The Chicago Limited gets to Cleveland in a mere 8.5 hours. Greyhound should run more and more Limiteds. We need more in the West. One up to Portland should be very popular considering that route is already packed. Then Dallas-Los Angeles would be a great idea too.


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## railiner

They have another Cleveland express during the busy summer months that departs NYC at around 1 PM, so it gets most of the earler travel going that way....

As for Dallas - Los Angeles......IIRC, at one time they did run a 'Latinos's' express from Chicago to Los Angeles, that basically stopped only for rest stops and driver changes...

not that familiar with its operation other than it was obviously targeted towards migrant workers heading home...or vice-versa.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Chicago-Los Angeles?! Which route did that take? I heard about Latinos a long time ago but I thought they ran Chicago-Nuevo Laredo with 102DL3's #6200-6205. Apparently they were disbanded due to poor profits and the buses went onto other very long Greyhound routes.

I think they really need a Limited on Dallas-Los Angeles, the route is really popular. Looking at the scheduel, it should go something like Dallas-Fort Worth-Abilene-_RS Van Horn-_El Paso-Lordsburg-Tucson-Quartzsite/Blythe-Los Angeles. Considering they've already got Limiteds on other popular LD routes, this should be a natural progression.

Edit: How are the current Limiteds doing? There's quite a bit from New York, going to Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, and Miami.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, very weird stuff going on here! The morning departure to SFD (8309) is sold out, but the red-eye is also sold out! Yep, Schedule 8317, departing Reno at 8:30 PM and getting to San Francisco at 1:30 AM, is sold out! Well, looks like plenty of people want no sleep.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm still trying to find out what's behind that big rear grille on the 102DL3. It appears to be the air intake _and _the radiator. After seeing more engine vids, there's a big pipe leading from the top along the left side of the engine. That looks like the air intake pipe. I learned that radiator fans can double as the air intake. So I think I got it down now, and I'm slowly understanding why a D is more reliable than a G.


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## railiner

Holiday time!

A sure indicator of holiday time was the "exotic's" Greyhound had parked in the Hoboken lot this morning.....2245, an MC-12 "shop truck"...I took a look inside...it had 16 seats, the last two rows arranged around tables. Further back was the equipment area, and behind that a surprise...four bunks!...then another work area and the lav. On its roof was a motor home style external air conditioning unit. The coach can also be used as a mobile "command post" for operations supervisor's to coordinate large charter operations, such as shuttles for Olympic games, etc...

Also there was an old 'T' model Van Hool number 3300 something. Also an old white 40 foot D3 with a lift. Also thrown into the mix were two D4505's among the X-3's and DL3's.

No 'G's (  ).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Nice, a 102D3 with lift. Looks like Greyhound haven't retired them all yet. Why would Greyhound have a Van Hool Tourer? I thought they only had a few old C2045's.

Where's the Hoboken lot? Are you expecting heavy traffic for Christmas? Greyhound posted this on thier website: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=554&year=2013.

Since I'm travelling with three guests right before New Year's Eve, should I arrive an hour before departure?

BTW, last spotting I did was two weeks ago when I saw a 102DL3 (I think) on the highway running Sked 8311 to SFD.

Edit: Oh yes, I see that all the Sacramento-Portland schedules are sold out, but only one San Francisco-Reno is sold out. Why is Sacramento-Portland so popular? It was a G4500 route but it could have been upgraded due to high demand.


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## railiner

The Hoboken lot is Academy's 'Lot Number Three', which Greyhound shares with Trailways of New York....they jointly pay rent to Academy for its use....it is three miles from The Port,

Yes, we are experiencing heavy travel. Not as intensely concentrated as the Thanksgiving weekend, but sustained over a much longer period, as schools are closed for a week or two, and colleges for a month. Also passenger's travelling further, and with a lot more baggage and packages.

So yes....get there early!

I can't guess why one Western route is more popular than another, although I will speculate that the Reno to San Francisco route has lost somewhat from long haul travelers since Greyhound has abandoned service on I-80 for a large chunk of the country.....


----------



## rickycourtney

Interesting note from here in California's central valley... I'm starting to see the G4500 again. The D4505 is still the dominant coach used on the California routes but instead of seeing the occasional refurbished 102DL3... I'm seeing the occasional G4500.

This is probably my last report on Greyhounds in California. I'm moving to Seattle at the start of the new year.

I'll take your advice Swadian and avoid the rampant G4500's at all costs... but I'm looking forward to jumping on one of a BoltBus X3-45 and taking a trip to go visit my friend in Vancouver.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, if you move to Seattle, you could watch and see when Greyhound decides that those G4500's need rebuilding and pull them out. I'm interested in the Seattle situation right now, because those G4500's are basically flanked by D's from Vancouver Garage and D's from Los Angeles Garage.

I have two spotters here that also call themselves "Swadian" but they're not as experienced with Greyhound as me.

Railiner, I know Greyhound has lost LD pax but the Reno-San Francisco route is much shorter than Sacramento-Portland. Plus, it's cheaper per-mile and and has a lot of population density. Personally, I've observed good loads on this route except for the badly-timed schedules. Not sure what's going on to make SAC-PUT all sold out.

Today's SAC-PUT is not all sold out but most runs are. Meanwhile, SFD-RNO has one sell-out and the RNO-SFD has no sell-outs.

I'm just watching loads because I have to travel with 3 guests.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Here's a nice old Christmas bus from Greyhound Canada. It's a 102C3. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2106037188.

Merry Christmas! Go Greyhound!


----------



## railiner

Nice.....  !


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I'll be riding Greyhound again in a few days. I'll do a lot of spotting to see what's going on with the interesting situation in the West. Hopefully I can ride a 102DL3 again because I haven't ridden much this year and it's a comfortable coach.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I've always wondered what happened to the MCI MC-10 and MC-11. I think the MC-10 ended up as the 96A3 but what about the MC-11? Did that become the unsuccesful 102B3?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I've always wondered what happened to the MCI MC-10 and MC-11. I think the MC-10 ended up as the 96A3 but what about the MC-11? Did that become the unsuccesful 102B3?


The answer to that question remains unclear....only someone that designated model names at MCI could probably give the proper answer...

Logically, the MC-12 should have been designated as a MC-10 or perhaps an 'MC-9A', following their past practice assigning names to modifications or new models. But the fact that the 'letter series' came out between the MC-9 and the MC-12 probably had something to do with skipping those numbers.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wondered what happened to the MCI MC-10 and MC-11. I think the MC-10 ended up as the 96A3 but what about the MC-11? Did that become the unsuccesful 102B3?
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to that question remains unclear....only someone that designated model names at MCI could probably give the proper answer...
> 
> Logically, the MC-12 should have been designated as a MC-10 or perhaps an 'MC-9A', following their past practice assigning names to modifications or new models. But the fact that the 'letter series' came out between the MC-9 and the MC-12 probably had something to do with skipping those numbers.....
Click to expand...

I thought the MC-9A was similar to the MC-9J, the commuter version MC-9 for New Jersey Transit. But I can't find good info on the differences between the MC-9A, MC-9B, and MC-9J. I did find this: http://www.ttmg.org/pages/tmci/njt-mcie.html.

Man, I haven't seen one of these in a long time! When did NJT retire them?


----------



## railiner

Didn't know there was an MCI officially designated MC-9A, B, or J name for the "Jerseycruiser's", as NJT called them. But whatever, the MC-12 should have been designated by either the next available letter, or called an 'MC-10', following the past practices MCI employed in designating new models or major mods of existing models.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Didn't know there was an MCI officially designated MC-9A, B, or J name for the "Jerseycruiser's", as NJT called them. But whatever, the MC-12 should have been designated by either the next available letter, or called an 'MC-10', following the past practices MCI employed in designating new models or major mods of existing models.....


But I also saw somewhere that the MC-10 entered production as the 96A3, the first "letter model". So I think MCI was going to call it the MC-10 but decided to swtich the naming and call it the 96A3 and 102A3.

What I don't understand is what happened to the MC-11. And the MC-12 should have indeed been called the MC-9C or something like that, it was basically the same thing. Heck, the engine started with the same 6V-92TA that the MC-9 had ended with.

The interior did have some changes.

MC-9 interior: http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Rockland_MCI_MC9-Interior.jpg

MC-12 interior: http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Greyhound_MCI_MC12-Interior.jpg

Apparently there's the MC-9 Gold Version but I don't understand what that is.

On yeah, just for fun, I found this picture of a trackless trolley in Philadelphia: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?139073. The weird thing is, it's labeled a "PCC"! You can see the rubber bus tires.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wondered what happened to the MCI MC-10 and MC-11. I think the MC-10 ended up as the 96A3 but what about the MC-11? Did that become the unsuccesful 102B3?
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to that question remains unclear....only someone that designated model names at MCI could probably give the proper answer...
> 
> Logically, the MC-12 should have been designated as a MC-10 or perhaps an 'MC-9A', following their past practice assigning names to modifications or new models. But the fact that the 'letter series' came out between the MC-9 and the MC-12 probably had something to do with skipping those numbers.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought the MC-9A was similar to the MC-9J, the commuter version MC-9 for New Jersey Transit. But I can't find good info on the differences between the MC-9A, MC-9B, and MC-9J. I did find this: http://www.ttmg.org/pages/tmci/njt-mcie.html.
> 
> Man, I haven't seen one of these in a long time! When did NJT retire them?
Click to expand...

1998-2003 was when those MC-9s started going when the 102-DL3s arrived. Some went to Florida. One 1983 MC-9A was repowered with an 8v71N and was retired in 2006 by one of the companies down here. Man MC-7-9s were used a lot by many down here along with some Prevosts and Van Hools.


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## railiner

Swadian, didn't the MC-12 come with the new '50' series, 4 cycle, 4 cyliner Detroit Diesel? I know the ones I have seen had it, but not sure if they all did, or like you said, the first ones still had the classic 2 cycle Detroit...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian, didn't the MC-12 come with the new '50' series, 4 cycle, 4 cyliner Detroit Diesel? I know the ones I have seen had it, but not sure if they all did, or like you said, the first ones still had the classic 2 cycle Detroit...


As far as I could find, the 1992-1996 MC-12's had the 6V92TA like the late-model MC-9's and the rest had some version of the Series 50. The earlier MC-9's had the 8V71TA and sometimes the 8V71N.

That's what I could find, it may not be the most correct.

Also, it appears that Greyhound's early D4505's from 2010-2011 have the Detroit 60 while the newer ones have the Cummins ISX. I just got off one with an ISX, it seems like a pretty good engine.


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## railiner

Except for the pollution issue, I love the old Detroit Diesel classic two cycle engines....best bus engine ever built....

I like their big 'cousin's' as well....the Electromotive Division old two cycle locomotive engines.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just got off a Greyhound bus yesterday. It was my New Year's trip to San Francisco. Both ways D4505, first one was 86542 and second was 86521. I measured the seats in these buses, 36" pitch and 18" width. Quite a lot better than airline Economy. Smooth ride, good drivers, and not much suspicious passengers.

After you brought up how Greyhound is supposedly popular with college kids, I took a look at each passenger and I saw some boarding in Sacramento on the outbound leg to SFD. I saw only one college kid that got off in Reno on the return leg, no college kids got on in Reno on the outboud leg. Did see a "young professional" who sat in front of me on the entire outbound leg. He had an interest in trucks and chatted with a friendly trucker seat mate about Kenworth and fifth wheels. It seems that Greyhound is gaining popularity with California college kids but very unpopular with Reno college kids.

Greyhound needs to cut padding on the RNO-SFD. We were early to every station. On the outbound leg, we were 20 minutes early into SAC despite taking an unscheduled 10-minutes smoke break in Colfax. Would've been 30 minutes early if the driver hadn't taken that extra stop.

Both schedules were packed with passengers, but as I said, most passengers were civilized and clean. Restrooms were clean, both buses were very clean. No mechanical problems. Fun downhill and uphill rides at high speed, the drivers always kept it stable. Both drivers were aggressive, passed many cars and semis. I knew the second driver after many ride with him, he didn't both with the outside lane because he was contantly passing everybody, flooring it uphill. Weather was clear and sunny so no safety issues. Ride past Donner Lake at dusk was very nice.

My guests had some suitcases, they all arrived with no issues. They liked the Greyhound and said that they were indeed better than Eurolines (they're from Germany). They were surprised at the very high Amtrak fares I showed them but they said they were happy with Greyhound.

Tried the Greyhound Food Services at SAC since I earned discount on all food purchases with my Road Rewards card. The food was actually pretty good. Freshly prepared at the terminal, I saw them grilling my burger. It's a good deal for the price I got.

I know Greyhound's got a bad reputation, and I know people can say I'm biased because I'm a Greyhound enthusiast. But what have I got to complain about? Sure, the G4500's suck, but they're getting rebuilt fast and they're disappearing. The only complaint I have about this trip is that the schedules had too much padding.

As far as fleet types, I've been seeing huge amounts of D4505's and no 102DL3's at all. A few G4500's mixed in. All the schedules east of Reno that I saw were D4505's. I haven't seen a 'DL3 since summer, where'd they go?

Pictures coming up on my Flickr photostream, check them out as I slowly upload them.


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## rickycourtney

The D4505 is a very nice motorcoach. The Amtrak California ones I travelled on rode great, seemed to have no problem going over the mountain pass on the I-5, the MCI standard seats are comfortable (I'm sure Greyhounds are even more comfortable) and it was a quiet ride. It's a fantastic machine!

As I mentioned earlier, I just moved up to Seattle. On my way up here I drove a moving truck and was passed by just one Greyhound. It made me think of this discussion thread.

It was a G4500 and this bus represented every stereotype people have about the company. It was filthy, had duct tape holding down a baggage door, the wheelchair door was plain white and a big cloud of black diesel smoke poured out as it passed. The only upside is that the bus could still speed down the highway at 10 miles an hour over the posted speed limit.

It was a total contrast to the D4505 and their drivers I was used to seeing in Central California.

I only hope that for Greyhound's (and Amtrak California's) sake that MCI's new equipment holds up better than the G4500.

Those old dogs can't be rebuilt fast enough! (I have yet to see a rebuilt G4500 in the wild.)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yep Ricky, Greyhound should have rebuilt the G4500 before rebuilding the 102DL3. I don't know what they were thinking except that the G4500 is newer. Doesn't matter how new the G4500 is because the 102DL3 never runs like stiched-up scrap metal but 60% of G4500's have major defects!

At least the G4500 isn't a real MCI, it was made by Dina. They have derated engines (370hp) because they had too many overheats and engine fires, so they don't go as fast as the other Greyhounds. I'm surprised it went 10 mph over the speed limit.

Do you remember where you saw that G4500? I'm thinking the Sacramento-Portland route.

Regarding the D4505 seats, there's no "standard" MCI seats because MCI doesn't make seats. Whenever you buy a bus, you order the seat to preference. I saw those pictures you posted of the seats, can't really determine what seats they are. But I'm glad they're comfy.

When I say the "night and day" difference with Greyhound coaches, you can see that I'm talking about G4500 vs D4505. The former is worse is every way imaginable! That's why Greyhound had such a long lawsuit over their issues!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Any updates on the G4500 and Seattle-based schedules? I know the rebuilds are underway but what's the rebuild rate? The 102DL3 rebuild rate was/is about 1 unit per day. I assume the G4500 will be slower to rebuild because it's such a bad coach.


----------



## rickycourtney

Speaking of which... apparently Greyhound takes Washington State Route 99 into town (which passes right by my Apartment). In the past week or so I've seen about a dozen G4500 (no rebuilds, all looked beat to hell), 1 D4505 and today I spotted a rebuilt 102DL3.

I know that ABC Companies is rebuilding the 102DL3. Who won the contract to rebuild the G4500? As a matter of fact, I've never seen a press release from Greyhound (or anyone for that matter) that they are rebuilding the G4500.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Wait, they actually have _some _better coaches in Seattle now? Last I heard it was all G4500's, all schedules, all routes. Now that you're seeing the occasional D4505 and 102DL3, seems like Greyhound is slowly improving Seattle service. Or they could just be Denver-based buses that end up in the PNW after running Denver-Portland.

I heard from a Greyhound driver that they are rebuilding the G4500 with Volvo engines. No idea who got the contract, but it could just be ABC Companies. On GTE I heard that Greyhound did some 102DL3 rebuild in their own Louisville and Richmond Maintainenece Centers. There's pictures of Richmond mechanics replacing the entire powertrain and all the electric wires in a 102DL3.

Here's some pictures of a rebuilt G4500: http://www.flickr.com/search/[email protected]&q=G4500

Say, which part of 99 are you on? I used to live in Seattle, but I forgot my exact address, it's been a long time. Rain, rain, rain.....


----------



## rickycourtney

I live near the viaduct in Downtown. The buses seem to exit the 99 at Seneca and head up 1st to the terminal.

Question: on the Greyhound Wikipedia page they list 20 J4500 in the fleet... but they say they were built in 2013 while there is a photo of a 2005 J4500 in Greyhound's new livery. Also, they say there are some D4500 coaches in Greyhounds fleet (I know it's essentially the same bus as the 102DL3) but how many and when were they introduced?

I guess the answer is to get a real fleet roster...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Aha, I was just looking at Wikipedia and I saw you in the Edit History. Yeah, I don't know about those J4500's since I've never seen one. As I said before in this thread, I heard on GTE that they were bought second-hand in 2013 from Lakefront Lines and bankrupt Coach America. They were obviously not built in 2013.

I do know more about the D4500's, they're numbered in the 6600-series (built 2001) and they are exactly identical to the 6500-series 102DL3 (built 1998-2000). These buses differ from the other DL3's in that they have factory-installed wheelchair lifts with wide WC doors, the other ones have retrofitted WC lifts with much narrower WC doors. Here, pictures tell the tale:

#6357 (narrow WC door): http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/8083537239/in/set-72157625959347317

#6533 (wide WC door): http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/8535660372/

#6651 (wide WC door D4500):http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/7993874971/in/set-72157625959347317

As you can see, no difference whatsoever between #6533 and #6651. The D4505 is just a D4500 with cosmetic changes. Do note, #6660-6664 are second-hand from Michigan DOT, they have a really weird offset WC door. I've only seen it in pictures.


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## rickycourtney

Just curious what's GTE?

If it's a website what's the address?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

GTE is basically Greyhound's version of AU. But it's a Yahoo! Group, which got messed up with the new version. Having quite a bit of trouble with GTE lately.

Just go to Yahoo! Groups and search for it: "Greyhound Through Express". Right now a popular topic is about shifting manual coach transmissions.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why do some Greyhound Canada coaches drive with a black cloth pulled over their nose? A lot of these are rebuilds, I really don't think their nose is damaged already.


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why do some Greyhound Canada coaches drive with a black cloth pulled over their nose? A lot of these are rebuilds, I really don't think their nose is damaged already.


Cold weather protection, perhaps? I've noticed the same in the winter on a lot of school buses, and that's the only thing I can think of.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some Greyhound Canada coaches drive with a black cloth pulled over their nose? A lot of these are rebuilds, I really don't think their nose is damaged already.
> 
> 
> 
> Cold weather protection, perhaps? I've noticed the same in the winter on a lot of school buses, and that's the only thing I can think of.
Click to expand...

Possibly, but I still don't understand why it's a black cloth instead of a blue cloth to fit the colours of the coach. Also, the nose of these coaches are stainless steel painted blue with decal on top, do they really need a cloth over them? If so, why only on the rebuilds and not on the original 102DL3's?


----------



## Ryan

If it's the kind of cover I'm thinking of, it makes less airflow over the radiator, allowing the engine to reach operating temperature more quickly (and stay there). I've only ever seen them in black, that's probably the only color they come in. It's not mean to be good looking, it's meant to work.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ryan said:


> If it's the kind of cover I'm thinking of, it makes less airflow over the radiator, allowing the engine to reach operating temperature more quickly (and stay there). I've only ever seen them in black, that's probably the only color they come in. It's not mean to be good looking, it's meant to work.


The radiator of the coach in question (102DL3) is mounted in the rear, above the engine. The engine of this coach is in the rear, not in the front like school buses.

So why the black cover over a piece of stainless steel?

102DL3 with nose cover: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102dl3/us102dl3/030213-03039gh6048.jpg.

102DL3 without nose cover: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102dl3/us102dl3/261111-2223gh6166.jpg.

102DL3 engine and radiator at back: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102dl3/2000dl3/041211-09371gh1125.jpg.

Shouldn't be cold weather protection because there's a picture taken in April with the black cover and another picture taken in December without the nose cover.


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## Ryan

I've got nothing, then. That's really random.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just heard about this accident in 1965 that happened in Oregon: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/01/oregon_bus_crash_oregons_deadl.html. Bus looks like a GMC. It doesn't even look that badly damaged, hard to believe 14 people died.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Shouldn't be cold weather protection because there's a picture taken in April with the black cover and another picture taken in December without the nose cover.


Just a random theory... since this is the winter and those are Canadian buses... maybe they are to protect the paint on these newly refurbished buses from damage by road salt in the harsh Canadian winters.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't be cold weather protection because there's a picture taken in April with the black cover and another picture taken in December without the nose cover.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a random theory... since this is the winter and those are Canadian buses... maybe they are to protect the paint on these newly refurbished buses from damage by road salt in the harsh Canadian winters.
Click to expand...

But there's a picture of 6177 taken on 14 July 2013 at Banff heading to Calgary, with a nose cover! I'm pretty sure there's no snow in July, Banff isn't even that cold.

There's another picture of 6341 covered with snow and no nose cover!

I'll have to go to Canada and ask them myself. Or maybe GTE has some answers, if the technical issues would stop!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I found about the Greyhound Canada seats, they appear to be Amaya Torino VIP. The rebuilt Canada-original D coaches have the same seats with leather covering.

I hope someone can confirm the type of seating.

Amaya Torino VIP: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_vip/.

Greyhound Canada 102DL3 interior: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1123_front.jpg.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just heard that Greyhound #86538 had an incident in Arizona when a man tried to attack the driver and the coach swerved into the median. The coach was running Schedule 1454 Los Angeles-Dallas, signed EL PASO, TX.

Apparently the crazed attacker kicked open the driver shield but failed to crash the bus before passengers subdued him.

Article: http://www.kpho.com/story/24527349/bus-driver-praised-after-attack-suspect-idd.

Looks like Greyhound is already suffering attritional losses of their new D4505's even though they have pat-downs for every passenger at major stations and ID requirements for every passenger.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I just heard that Greyhound #86538 had an incident in Arizona when a man tried to attack the driver and the coach swerved into the median. The coach was running Schedule 1454 Los Angeles-Dallas, signed EL PASO, TX.
> 
> Apparently the crazed attacker kicked open the driver shield but failed to crash the bus before passengers subdued him.
> 
> Article: http://www.kpho.com/story/24527349/bus-driver-praised-after-attack-suspect-idd.
> 
> Looks like Greyhound is already suffering attritional losses of their new D4505's even though they have pat-downs for every passenger at major stations and ID requirements for every passenger.


What a crazy story. I covered a very similar story while working in Fresno. A guy attempted to attack the driver and drive the bus off the road but passengers stepped in to subdue the man.
Unfortunately as long as these incidents happen they will only serve to reinforce the negative stereotype of Greyhound passengers and traveling by bus. There has to be something the company to can do or better screen out the lunatics. (Maybe ID checks before boarding buses?)

It's also concerning that the "driver shield" did so little to shield the driver.

As for the D4505... The damage doesn't look too bad. I'm sure Greyhound will have it back on the road soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Foru


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## railiner

It is always disturbing to hear of these incidents. Fortunately, this one apparently was spared from any loss of lives. Due to the nature of bus transportation, it is nigh impossible to screen all passengers.

The way to prevent further incidents must rest with better securing of the driver, perhaps in a "hardened" operator compartment, along the lines of airliner cockpits....

I think that there should be a full bulkhead separating the driver and entryway from the seating area, with polycarbonate window(s) at passenger eye level to maintain front view for passengers. While loading passengers, a door from the entryway into the aisle would swing over to completely block drivers compartment, similar to the way the 'shield' does now, but with total coverage....


----------



## railiner

This incident reminded me of one back in the late '60's, that had a better ending....

This bus was proceeding down the highway, when a psychotic passenger wielding a knife charged down the aisle, screaming, The quick-thinking driver saw the pending attack in the mirror just in time to floor the brake pedal, sending the attacker crashing into the windshield and dashboard. As the bus slowed down, the driver opened the entrance door, and jerked the wheel to the left, sending the psycho down the steps and out the door. The driver proceeded down the road, to call the police, The culprit was picked up shortly and taken for medical treatment and jail.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Last time I was boarding at San Fran to head back to Reno, all us passengers were patted down with a metal detector and the driver checked each person's ID one by one.

I assume this attacker had valid photo ID and did not have any weapons, but that dosen't mean he was a normal person that wouldn't attack the driver in the middle of the night at 70 mph.

Since the attacker got past the shield anyway, he could've killed the driver if he had a weapon. At least the metal detectors at major stations help a lot because it reduces the chance of something like #6433 happenning again, on #6433 in 2001, a man stabbed the driver at night in Tennessee and the coach flipped over during the struggle.



railiner said:


> This incident reminded me of one back in the late '60's, that had a better ending....
> 
> This bus was proceeding down the highway, when a psychotic passenger wielding a knife charged down the aisle, screaming, The quick-thinking driver saw the pending attack in the mirror just in time to floor the brake pedal, sending the attacker crashing into the windshield and dashboard. As the bus slowed down, the driver opened the entrance door, and jerked the wheel to the left, sending the psycho down the steps and out the door. The driver proceeded down the road, to call the police, The culprit was picked up shortly and taken for medical treatment and jail.....


Maybe if these attacks happened by day, the drivers could've pulled off that manuever.

I guess we need full composite bulkheads for the driver now. Greyhound is pretty doing all it can to improve and they're still dealing with this.


----------



## railiner

I actually drove a bus one time that the driver was isolated in a separate 'cab'....it was over in Wiesbaden, Germany, and the bus was actually a 'mobile lounge', used at certain airports to transport passenger's from airport gates out to aircraft parked at outer ramp hardstands....


----------



## trainman74

The novel "Ready Player One" from a couple years ago describes an intercity bus trip in a dystopian U.S. in the 2040s -- the bus has not just an armored compartment for the driver, but also roof-mounted compartments for armed guards. (Can't remember if the author actually used the Greyhound name or not.)


----------



## railiner

MCI makes a 'prisoner transport' that could be adapted.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, in a true dystopia eveything would be armed and armoured or you would probably be dead!



railiner said:


> MCI makes a 'prisoner transport' that could be adapted.....


So, the current ISTV based on the 102DL3? They also adapted a few MC-12's into prisoner transports.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, I was looking at some timetables since I'm interested in getting up to Canada and I saw that there's a Sacramento-Portland run departing at 2:00 AM. This run originates in Sacramento, does not come from anywhere else. It's Schedule 1420.

Well, why does Greyhound even operate this? Do these weird runs get lots of passengers?

I would also like to know what equipment runs the New York-Atlanta and New York-Miami routes, if possible.

Thanks


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I was just on Flickr and I saw this weird photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12167539823/sizes/l/.

Yep, that's a Prevost H3-45 painted in Greyhound's new livery and with US operating tags. I know Greyhound Canada had some of these but in the US? More interesting is that this one was taken in Vancouver, BC, probably after a run from Seattle.

Does this mean Greyhound is buying H3-45's to replace the Seattle-based G4500's?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was just on Flickr and I saw this weird photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12167539823/sizes/l/.
> 
> Yep, that's a Prevost H3-45 painted in Greyhound's new livery and with US operating tags. I know Greyhound Canada had some of these but in the US? More interesting is that this one was taken in Vancouver, BC, probably after a run from Seattle.
> 
> Does this mean Greyhound is buying H3-45's to replace the Seattle-based G4500's?


That's a nice shot! Thanks for the link....The only Greyhound H3-45's that I've seen were the few that GLC bought in the mid nineties. They used to come down to New York from Toronto, on our pool run occasionally.

We sure would welcome those on our pool now....the X3's just don't have sufficient baggage capacity when the kids are returning to college, with everything they own...


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hmm, I was looking at some timetables since I'm interested in getting up to Canada and I saw that there's a Sacramento-Portland run departing at 2:00 AM. This run originates in Sacramento, does not come from anywhere else. It's Schedule 1420.
> 
> Well, why does Greyhound even operate this? Do these weird runs get lots of passengers?
> 
> I would also like to know what equipment runs the New York-Atlanta and New York-Miami routes, if possible.
> 
> Thanks


That schedule is 'fed' by schedule 6846 an express from Los Angeles, departing there at 1715 and arriving Sacramento at 0110 (table 630). In the past, they would run a trip like that straight thru, so passengers wouldn't have to change buses at that awful hour. It's like they're doing everything they can to discourage long-haul travel, in favor of shorter hops.....

I'll try to remember to find the answer to your equipment question tomorrow re: NY to Atlanta and Miami.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just on Flickr and I saw this weird photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12167539823/sizes/l/.
> 
> Yep, that's a Prevost H3-45 painted in Greyhound's new livery and with US operating tags. I know Greyhound Canada had some of these but in the US? More interesting is that this one was taken in Vancouver, BC, probably after a run from Seattle.
> 
> Does this mean Greyhound is buying H3-45's to replace the Seattle-based G4500's?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a nice shot! Thanks for the link....The only Greyhound H3-45's that I've seen were the few that GLC bought in the mid nineties. They used to come down to New York from Toronto, on our pool run occasionally.
> 
> We sure would welcome those on our pool now....the X3's just don't have sufficient baggage capacity when the kids are returning to college, with everything they own...
Click to expand...

But in Reno, I've never seen college kids riding Greyhound. I've seen some in California but never noticed any in Reno. And I do ride Greyhound from Reno a lot. Baggage capacity on the D4505's seem sufficient to handle even the peak loads. Off-peak, you can see packages filling in the rest of the space.

I don't know where the heck Greyhound got the H3-45's, used or new?



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I was looking at some timetables since I'm interested in getting up to Canada and I saw that there's a Sacramento-Portland run departing at 2:00 AM. This run originates in Sacramento, does not come from anywhere else. It's Schedule 1420.
> 
> Well, why does Greyhound even operate this? Do these weird runs get lots of passengers?
> 
> I would also like to know what equipment runs the New York-Atlanta and New York-Miami routes, if possible.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> That schedule is 'fed' by schedule 6846 an express from Los Angeles, departing there at 1715 and arriving Sacramento at 0110 (table 630). In the past, they would run a trip like that straight thru, so passengers wouldn't have to change buses at that awful hour. It's like they're doing everything they can to discourage long-haul travel, in favor of shorter hops.....
> 
> I'll try to remember to find the answer to your equipment question tomorrow re: NY to Atlanta and Miami.....
Click to expand...

Ah, I see now, well they might as well run it through now or the passengers can take another schedule, plenty of options. They've seemed to take my suggestion on a Sacramento-Portland Limited, since Sked 1440 now skips Grants Pass and Roseburg. It just needs to skip Corvaliss to be a true Limited. For some reason the ride still take 12:40, the same time it took before cutting the stops.

I'm having a lively conversation on GTE right now, you would be welcome to join. Finally got that $&!? Yahoo! Groups to work for me.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, with the help of GTE I was able to get Greyhound's fleet roster! Yep, I got the full fleet roster!!!!! But it's a very long 23-page PDF file. I have attempted to attach it to this post. Hopefully you all can see it now.

Edit: Item failed to attach. To access the roster, follow these steps:

1. Texas DMV website

2. Motor Carriers

3. Look up a Motor Carrier

4. USDOT #44110

5. Vehicles


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## railiner

http://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/MCCS_Frame_Insurance.asp

Thanks for the tip.....I'll check out that yahoo group later. Sorry, I forgot to see what was on the ATL and MIA trips....will try again Monday.

Back to that registration list....only 1466 vehicles? That is only 25% of what GL owned back when I worked for them in 1971,2, and 3....

Perhaps they have some registered elsewhere? (I'm not counting Canadian buses)......

And I am surprised to see that they have so many Van Hools of various vintage in the fleet, as well as Setra's...

What really caught my eye was fleet number 4000.....what in the world is that? It says manufacturer "Buscar"....the only 'Bus and Car' that I recall was the Belgian plant that built the Eagles from 1961 until 1974, when Eagle Bus opened the Brownsville, Texas plant.

And what are the Dina's listed? "Marcopolo Viaggio's', perhaps?

It looks like GL has a much more diverse fleet than I had imagined......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has subsidiary vehicles that have different registrations, for example, a large number of Americanos coaches are tagged:

OPERATOR: AMERICANOS USA LLC, ALBUQUERQUE, NM USDOT 781086

which would not be listed in the Greyhound roster since they are a separate operator, not 44110. Apparently they have 139 units to add. The other subs probably have a few more here and there.

I'm surprised Greyhound Canada has a USDOT number, 14166, even though the are based in Canada, not the US. Even more confusing, some of their coaches are tagged for BURLINGTON, ON while others display CALGARY, AB. It seems all of them have Alberta license plates.

On GTE, it was reported Americanos' roster is listed on the Texas DMV pag even though they are now based in NM, and their coaches somehow carry California license plates. Super confused right now.....

Also heard from Chris Moore that for MCI VIN numbers, 4th digit is model and 7th digit is engine.

Yeah, you would love GTE!

On yeah, rebuilt G4500 spotted in Atlanta: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/5274810/or/532537704/name/20140113_200312.jpg. Ha, if you weren't a bus fan, you wouldn't know it's an ex-POS not a D4505! #6998, weird number.


----------



## rickycourtney

That's a great list. It's just a bummer the models aren't listed.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> That's a great list. It's just a bummer the models aren't listed.


On GTE, I'm learning how to decode the model and specs through the VIN, I'm post it here once I get it all.

It's interesting to note that unit #52672 (my current avatar), is actually the last five digits of its VIN, very rarely seen on the roster.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I would also like to know what equipment runs the New York-Atlanta and New York-Miami routes, if possible.
> 
> Thanks


Checked yesterday's departures from NYD on BOSS.....

New York to Atlanta......sked 1083--86180

sked 1081--86160

New York to Miami........sked 1011--86381

Sorry I took so long to check that.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would also like to know what equipment runs the New York-Atlanta and New York-Miami routes, if possible.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Checked yesterday's departures from NYD on BOSS.....
> 
> New York to Atlanta......sked 1083--86180
> 
> sked 1081--86160
> 
> New York to Miami........sked 1011--86381
> 
> Sorry I took so long to check that.....
Click to expand...

Gee, thanks! So you can access a BOSS computer now? I thought you couldn't check Greyhound's BOSS computers. Can you check routes that don't depart from New York?

Looks like X3-45 dominant on New York-Atlanta and a D4505 to Miami, probably based from Miami. I'm looking for 102DL3's because I haven't seen one in a long time and the routes above seem to not have them either. What's the westernmost route with some DL3's?


----------



## railiner

My log sign is no longer current, so a GLI person let me check while he was logged on....can't always do that unless things are slow....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, looks like I'll have to try something else if I want to find a DL3. Are they still prominant in the East?


----------



## railiner

Lots of them here....seems like about 30-40% of the fleet used here are DL3's.....the rest are mostly X-3's, with a few D4505's and ever rarely a G...maybe see one of those in a week, usually during holiday periods one of them will slip in here, but (thankfully), getting fewer and farther between sightings.

If you want to ride DL-3's, come here....lot's of 'em. 

We also have those white and those red VanHools.

And we still have that MC-12 'shoptruck' parked in Hoboken.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Lots of them here....seems like about 30-40% of the fleet used here are DL3's.....the rest are mostly X-3's, with a few D4505's and ever rarely a G...maybe see one of those in a week, usually during holiday periods one of them will slip in here, but (thankfully), getting fewer and farther between sightings.
> 
> If you want to ride DL-3's, come here....lot's of 'em.
> 
> We also have those white and those red VanHools.
> 
> And we still have that MC-12 'shoptruck' parked in Hoboken.....


Aw, too bad. Hopefully Greyhound Canada has quite a bit when I make it up there in some months. Over here, it's about 79% D4505's and 20% G4500's, plus 1% 102DL3's. Haven't seen one in three months, I don't even know if 1% comes around here anymore. Heck, I've haven't seen a single Greyhound DL3 in California either,

On GTE it was reported that Greyhound Canada has retired all of their 900-series 102DL3's and most of their 1000-series too. The remaining 1000's get retired in a few months. They are actively rebuilding their 1100-series, however.

It seems foolish to replace Canada's own 1995-1999 DL3's (900's and 1000's) with the same model buses transferred from the US that are barely newer, instead of rebuilding them. Meanwhile they end up rebuilding a slightly newer batch from 2000-2001.


----------



## rickycourtney

I'm not sure if you're interested in this... But it's been a steady stream of old beat up G4500 coaches here in Seattle the past few weeks (I've seen at least a half dozen.) But today I saw one D4505 going southbound through downtown (couldn't see the headsign). It makes me think these are buses that are making trips from California, turning around and going back south.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I'm not sure if you're interested in this... But it's been a steady stream of old beat up G4500 coaches here in Seattle the past few weeks (I've seen at least a half dozen.) But today I saw one D4505 going southbound through downtown (couldn't see the headsign). It makes me think these are buses that are making trips from California, turning around and going back south.


That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.

Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.

I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.

Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.
> 
> Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.
> 
> I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.
> 
> Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.


I'm absolutely positive that this was a D4505. That model has very distinctive LED taillights.

I still have yet to see a rebuilt G4500 and the D4505 coaches are rare. Still mostly just really beat up looking G4500 units.


----------



## railiner

I was surprised to see a rebuilt 'G', number 7027 in The Port, yesterday.....the first one I've noticed. Was too busy to see what trip it was being used on....from my quick glance it looked pretty good, but, well......its still a 'G'........ :unsure:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting. I heard from Keegan on GTE about Greyhound's Seattle garage, he lives in Seattle.
> 
> Keegan said that Seattle has received a batch of rebuilt G4500's, while the rest are still in line to be rebuilt. It is unclear how many units are in each batch and how fast the batches are being pumped out. Seattle also received 4 ex-Coach America Phoenix H3-45's, one of them is painted blue and the rest are plain white. You may have seen these going around but you didn't know they were Greyhound because they are plain while.
> 
> I hear the D4505's only operate as far north as Portland, based from Los Angeles and Denver garages. The D4505 you saw may very well have been a rebuilt G4500 or the blue H3-45. Also, the 102DL3 only operates as far north as Portland, based from Denver garage. Apprently there are few or none 102DL3's based from Los Angeles.
> 
> Please note the rebuitl G4500 looks very similar to a D4505. Are you sure it was a D4505? I mean, there are supposed to be rebuilt G4500's in Seattle, that's why I'm confused.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm absolutely positive that this was a D4505. That model has very distinctive LED taillights.
> 
> I still have yet to see a rebuilt G4500 and the D4505 coaches are rare. Still mostly just really beat up looking G4500 units.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well, the rebuilt G4500 has LED tailights too, so, I don't know.....but if you say it's a D4505, then probably is, considering how often you spotted them in California. The D4505 has black fenders, which the G4500 doesn't, and the G4500 has a dip in the first window, which the D4505 doesn't have.



railiner said:


> I was surprised to see a rebuilt 'G', number 7027 in The Port, yesterday.....the first one I've noticed. Was too busy to see what trip it was being used on....from my quick glance it looked pretty good, but, well......its still a 'G'........ :unsure:


7027? I remember linking some pictures here to 7027, which was seen rebuilt back in March 2013.

I know it's still a G4500, but remember, the SDP40F was also rebuilt into SDF40-2's, which apparently ran quite well. It's a rebuild, not a refurb, not an overhaul, so it's supposed to be BIG major changes.


----------



## railiner

Now how does that go....?......."A Dina by any other name, is still a Dina....... 

Sorry, but I am too much a skeptic to believe the basic product could ever be improved to what I would consider acceptable....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Now how does that go....?......."A Dina by any other name, is still a Dina.......
> 
> Sorry, but I am too much a skeptic to believe the basic product could ever be improved to what I would consider acceptable....


I understand, my riding experience shows every G4500 is significantly worse than a D or X. I am skeptical too, but I've got hope that they can at least imrpove a lot. That's why I'm curious and eagar to ride a rebuilt G4500 in the near future.

I think the rebuilt G4500 would be somewhat like a J4500, it's still fiberglass junk with a high center of gravity, disappointing reliability, big luggage holds, and an underpowered radiator. That sounds reasonable to me.


----------



## rickycourtney

I'm starting to doubt the existence of a program to rebuild the G4500.

Here's my reasoning:

• With the refurbishment of the 102DL3 both Greyhound and the contractor (ABC Companies) sent out a flurry of press releases. There have been none for a refurbishment of the G4500.

• There have been very few "rebuilt" G4500 coaches spotted in the wild (I couldn't find any pictures on Flickr or Google images). The few we have seen could simply be repaints (not a total rebuild) or wreck repairs.

• If the G4500 is such a lemon with major structural problems... Why would Greyhound invest millions in a rebuild program? They could instead do what they ARE doing... Invest millions refurbishing the better used coaches they own... And buy hundreds of replacement coaches from Prevost & MCI.

Just thinking out loud...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I'm starting to doubt the existence of a program to rebuild the G4500.
> 
> Here's my reasoning:
> 
> • With the refurbishment of the 102DL3 both Greyhound and the contractor (ABC Companies) sent out a flurry of press releases. There have been none for a refurbishment of the G4500.
> 
> • There have been very few "rebuilt" G4500 coaches spotted in the wild (I couldn't find any pictures on Flickr or Google images). The few we have seen could simply be repaints (not a total rebuild) or wreck repairs.
> 
> • If the G4500 is such a lemon with major structural problems... Why would Greyhound invest millions in a rebuild program? They could instead do what they ARE doing... Invest millions refurbishing the better used coaches they own... And buy hundreds of replacement coaches from Prevost & MCI.
> 
> Just thinking out loud...


That's what I thought too. For a very long time I thought the G4500 was going to be retired as soon as Greyhound dealt with their fleet shortage and then bought enough extra buses to replace them.

But when I suggested on GTE that Greyhound might just retire them, people insisted that they are getting rebuilt, that Greyhound needs every bus it can get, and that the rebuilds will solve most of the problems.

In fact, someone on GTE posted (a while ago) a night photo of rebuilt #6998 and pointed out that you can see the seating on the inside, and indeed they were the same resurfaced Patriot PT seating as on the rebuilt 102DL3. Unfortunately I cannot find that picture right now.

Then again, #40205 was repainted into the new livery, then had all seats and interior furnishings removed, before being destroyed in The Dark Knight Rises: http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_518739-MCI-G-4500-2001.html.

But since people on the biggest Greyhound discussion site keep insisting they are getting rebuilt, not retired, I guess they are getting rebuilt. Keegan says there are a batch of rebuilt G4500's in service from Seattle, he's is an old member GTE and his information is usually reliable.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Also, the new Greyhound Canada System Timetable was uploaded today, finally combined bi-directional tables into single documents, eliminating the confusing old system of multi-section timetables for the same schedule.

It will be effective March 9, 2014: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/csked/pageset.html.

Edit: Note the trans-continental schedules are still uni-directional, but the multiple segments have been combined. Now 700 is eastbound and 701 is westbound.

Many schedule numbers have been changed which is getting me very confused. 718 now displays for Vancouver-Osoyoos instead of 701.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.


Well that only adds to my theory that the G4500 are being replaced instead of being rebuilt.

A couple of other things I've also noticed on the Greyhound.com fleet page (which appears to be recently updated):

* 769 102DL3 units are listed instead of 910.

* 291 G4500 units are listed instead of 250.

* On the listing for the 102DL3 it says "This bus model is currently undergoing a major refurbishment" there's no such mention on the G4500 listing.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looking on Greyhound's roster, it looks like they've already retired about 100 G4500's, which would be a third of that fleet. Many of these could be from wrecks and fires, but some of them appears to have been sold in blocks. Not sure what to say about this.


Say...........................THANK YOU!


----------



## rickycourtney

So as soon as I said that... I saw G4500 #7265 in the neoclassic livery in Seattle today. First one I've spotted. But again, I'm rarely by the station here.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I just found out on GTE that the G4500 retirements were done on 30 September 2008. They were going to replace the G4500's with Prevosts but a fleet shortage forced Greyhound to keep them in service.

Now I'm pretty sure the G4500's are actually getting rebuilt. I'm going to the Greyhound temrinal here in Reno today so maybe I can see a rebuilt G4500.

There are only 769 102DL3's remaining in the US fleet because a bunch of them were transferred to Canada.

I don't understand why there are 291 G4500's in the fleet if they used to have only 250. In fact, on Greyhound's roster, I could only count about

200 G4500's after all the retirements and crashes. Also, about 110 G4500's have been involved in accdents of all types, but many were repaired and returned to service. The G4500 surely has the highest accident rate in Greyhound's fleet.

I'm thinking the extra ones include subsidiary units, which were recently merged into Greyhound's fleet. The subsidiaries had about 85 G4500's in total, which, adding to Greyhound's own _200-ish_, would be reasonably 291 units.


----------



## rickycourtney

Again, there's a huge difference between fully refurbishing a G4500 and just giving it some fresh paint. I'm curious what's being done to these coaches compared to the 102DL3 (new seats, power outlets, WiFi, refurbished engines.)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I went to the Greyhound station in Reno and there were three D4505's (86317, 86378, UT86397) and one orignal G4500 (7077). I rode UT86397 from Salt Lake City to Reno last year. I think it's permanentely based around the Intermountain area. Again, no 102DL3's!



rickycourtney said:


> Again, there's a huge difference between fully refurbishing a G4500 and just giving it some fresh paint. I'm curious what's being done to these coaches compared to the 102DL3 (new seats, power outlets, WiFi, refurbished engines.)


I know they got new seats, since there are multiple pictures of G4500's with new seats. But it's weird, they have resurfaced Patriot PT seats, the same on the rebuilt 102DL3. Now, the 102DL3 had gotten those seats back in the Elevate Everything refurbs, then they were resurfaced later and had a row removed for legroom. The G4500 never had the orignal Patriot PT seats. I think the removed rows from the 102DL3 and retired MC-12/102D3 units are being put in the G4500.

On GTE, they are reported as "rehabbed", not "refurbished". I'm not sure what "rehab" means in a bus sense.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

OK, a GTE member reported New York-Saint Louis with #6514 and Saint Louis-Kansas City with #6563. So that's where the DL3's went! And they're 6500's too, with original wheelchair lifts.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

What are these "GCA" buses on the roster? They're numbered 90000-90012, with 1FVACWDTxxxxxxxxx VIN's.

Edit: I found out they are cutaway shuttle with a front engine used on some Greyhound Connect services and are painted blue. I've never seen them before but it's good that Greyhound is trying to provide more efficiennt service to rural communities.

Edit: Greyhound has started Friday/Sunday service on the Boston-Brattleboro rural route, stopping at Nashus and Keene. This may be operated with a GCA cutaway. Table 064 in the System Timetable.

Greyhound also introduced, a while earlier, a contract route from Missoula-Whitefish with a cutaway. This will be to the advantage of Amtrak as it allows train passengers to reach southern Montana and further connections to Idaho Falls and Salt Lake City. This one is not in the System Timetable, it appears.

Unfortunately, Greyhound continues to operate G4500-exclusive on the Seattle-Missoula route, while slowly rehabbing them.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Found another picture of a rebuilt G4500: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12843627224/sizes/c/in/[email protected]/. Finally upgrading Seattle!

I know this is a major rebuild now after comparing to this pic of a blue-repainted G4500: http://www.imcdb.org/i518739.jpg. The repainted one still has a roll sign and bumper lights, plus the number is written higher up on the blue section of the roof cap.

Since the rebuilt G4500 has the bumper lights removed and covered, I believe Greyhound has replaced the rest of that troublesome electircal system and installed an electronic destination sign. Also, since the numbers are in "rebuild" font (more square), not the orignal font of G4500 numbers (narrow), it's a telltale sign that #7137 has been through major work in a shop somewhere.

Another observation of lights seems to show that the rebuilt G4500 has LED's.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Found another picture of a rebuilt G4500: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12843627224/sizes/c/in/[email protected]/. Finally upgrading Seattle!


I wouldn't use that unit from the Batman movie as a baseline for anything... Grehound's shops probably didn't spend a lot of time doing it right... since they were going to destroy it a few days later.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I know this is a major rebuild now after comparing to this pic of a blue-repainted G4500: http://www.imcdb.org/i518739.jpg. The repainted one still has a roll sign and bumper lights, plus the number is written higher up on the blue section of the roof cap.
> 
> Since the rebuilt G4500 has the bumper lights removed and covered, I believe Greyhound has replaced the rest of that troublesome electircal system and installed an electronic destination sign. Also, since the numbers are in "rebuild" font (more square), not the orignal font of G4500 numbers (narrow), it's a telltale sign that #7137 has been through major work in a shop somewhere.
> 
> Another observation of lights seems to show that the rebuilt G4500 has LED's.


I have no doubt that it's been in a shop for some work but I question how "major" it is.

Painting a vehicle is always a somewhat involved work... it requires the vehicle be taken out of service for several days which is a great time to do other service requirements and upgrades as the vehicle is out of service.

It's clear from these pictures that the coach had Wi-Fi, power outlets and a LED head sign installed (I'm guessing it also has new faux-leather seats, or covers put on the old seats)... from the passenger's perspective that's a huge upgrade. (Remember, the normal passenger isn't as critical about things like the manufacturer, build location, ride quality and the engine, unless something goes wrong.) These are all things that really impress a passenger and could be done by Greyhound, in it's own shops, in a couple of days.

What's not clear is if this is a total rebuild like the 102DL3 units got. Remember ABC is replacing nearly everything on those coaches is inspected, repaired or replaced. The whole process takes 1.5 months and should keep the 102DL3 coaches on the road for another decade.

If the G4500's are such lemons, Greyhound might be just giving them a facelift until new units arrive (remember, Wi-Fi routers, new seats and head signs *could* be removed from these units and transferred to a brand new bus in a few years.)

I guess my question is... has Greyhound decided to rebuild these G4500 units... or are they just putting lipstick on a pig (err, dog).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Wait, #7137 was not the coach destroyed in Batman, #40205 was the coach destroyed in Batman. #40205 was the coach that still had bumber lights and the old sign after getting repainted. Also, this shot shows that the destroyed #40205 still had the old cloth seats: http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/20773/XOCJd.jpg.

Looking at #7137, the bumper lights have been removed, and the light on roof cap appear to be LED.

But I think I found something else about these "rebuilt" G4500's. Look at this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9440647968/sizes/k/in/photostream/. Scroll down and look at the little openings to the sides of the license plate. You can see the engine compartment inside, and the compenents there appear to be new. The yellow bars and the metal rollers appear very clean, something almost impossible in the unreliable G4500.

If the bus didn't get a major rebuild, then the engine compart would look something like this: http://busesandmore.com/images/2003-E4500-61978/Detroit-Diesel-Engine.jpg. You would not be able to see every bolt clearly on the rollers.

Also compare tailights to this G4500 original: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/10744729133/sizes/k/. The rebuilds have different lights, they look like LED's.

The timeframe for these rebuilds also fit, a large number of G4500's were taken out of service in October 2013 when more D4505's arrived. The first rebuilt G4500's entered service in Seattle during January 2014.


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## rickycourtney

Agreed... those are definitely LED taillights and the engine compartment looks clean (but it could simply be that, a cleaning. Not a rebuilt engine.)

Either Greyhound is rebuilding the G4500, hoping to keep them on the road for another decade or simply giving them a nice facelift, with plans to retire them in a few years.

But as I said earlier... at the end of the day it doesn't matter to the customers. So many of the G4500 units are among the worst looking buses Greyhound owns (I present this photo you took as evidence: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9944614706/ The plain white baggage door and warped side panels are a nice touch :blink: ). The faster Greyhound can paint these coaches in the neoclassic livery... the better!


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Agreed... those are definitely LED taillights and the engine compartment looks clean (but it could simply be that, a cleaning. Not a rebuilt engine.)
> 
> Either Greyhound is rebuilding the G4500, hoping to keep them on the road for another decade or simply giving them a nice facelift, with plans to retire them in a few years.
> 
> But as I said earlier... at the end of the day it doesn't matter to the customers. So many of the G4500 units are among the worst looking buses Greyhound owns (I present this photo you took as evidence: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9944614706/ The plain white baggage door and warped side panels are a nice touch :blink: ). The faster Greyhound can paint these coaches in the neoclassic livery... the better!


You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.

It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.
> 
> It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.


Haha. No I've never been that close to one. That's horrible and a reason to hate that bus model. Sounds like the air intake is too close to the lav.

Back in my California days I only encountered one bus with a stinky lav. But I think that was less about the model (one of the older Van Hool's) and more that someone probably forgot to pump the tank the prior night and it had been over used.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't been up close to G4500 huh? It smells horrible! The odor from that coach smells different from any other Greyhound coach, in fact it probably kicked off the term "stinking Greyhound". They can repaint the bus and clean it, but sonner or later that odor is going to come back unless they replace the faulty lavatories and air conditioning.
> 
> It does really matter to me, that odor is so bad at the front that sometimes I have to hold my nostrils together when passing through the front section. I don't know why it's always worst at the front, since the lavatory is at the back. Maybe it's coming out that big air vent in the front.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha. No I've never been that close to one. That's horrible and a reason to hate that bus model. Sounds like the air intake is too close to the lav.
> 
> Back in my California days I only encountered one bus with a stinky lav. But I think that was less about the model (one of the older Van Hool's) and more that someone probably forgot to pump the tank the prior night and it had been over used.
Click to expand...

Weird thing is, when I pass through the front, it smells different than the lavatory at the rear. The front smells like burning rubber, the rear smells like human excrement mixed with detergent. The burning rubber on some of them smells so bad that you cannot avoid gagging, then you fight to avoid vomiting on the aisle.

I hear plenty of stories from people saying they vomited in a G4500. One review said he left the bus at a stop because he couldn't bear the smell, then ended up hitchiking.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Word on the street is that Greyhound Canada plans to retire all G4500's by the end of April 2014. This has been backed up by spottings and photos of scrapped G4500's lined up in Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Vancouver. Greyhound Canada appears to have had enough with these and refused to consider a rebuild.

Retired G4500's:

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1183_1013_1228.jpg

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1211.jpg

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1209_2.jpg

Greyhound Canada has also retired some offshoot DL3's that are not standardized with the rest of the fleet. These include second-hand DL3's and CAT-powered DL3's.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound adds a stop at Saint Pual Union Depot, on Route 304 Chicago-Minneapolis. See this: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=559&year=2014.

Please check the Greyhound System Timetable for more information.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound adds a stop at Saint Pual Union Depot, on Route 304 Chicago-Minneapolis. See this: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=559&year=2014.
> 
> Please check the Greyhound System Timetable for more information.


I checked it....don't see it added yet to the 15 January timetable.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound adds a stop at Saint Pual Union Depot, on Route 304 Chicago-Minneapolis. See this: http://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=559&year=2014.
> 
> Please check the Greyhound System Timetable for more information.
> 
> 
> 
> I checked it....don't see it added yet to the 15 January timetable.....
Click to expand...

It was added to 304 on March 11, 2014. See: http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.html. Seems like they might have added more schedules too, now 5 daily and more on weekends.


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## railiner

Okay...now I see where they had a revision for that table....missed it until you pointed it out....thanks!


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## Swadian Hardcore

What does the color code mean? Yellow, turquoise, and red? I think red means discountinued but the other two?


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## beebopper

The color code indicates the regional pool that the coach is assigned ! For example pool 355 pool would be a west of Chicago based bus and Pool 047 would be 48 state fourth foot coach! They haven't been placing stickers on the new or returns, but they are all in specific pools for main shop assignments!

Sent from my Prism II using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Swadian Hardcore

beebopper said:


> The color code indicates the regional pool that the coach is assigned ! For example pool 355 pool would be a west of Chicago based bus and Pool 047 would be 48 state fourth foot coach! They haven't been placing stickers on the new or returns, but they are all in specific pools for main shop assignments!
> 
> Sent from my Prism II using Amtrak Forum mobile app


I think you got the color code of the roster comfused with the color code of the timetable. I mean the colors on the timetable, not the roster. The timetable does not display pool numbers.


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## rickycourtney

So while out exploring in West Seattle today I saw a G4500 (in the neoclassical livery) driving under the West Seattle Bridge. It appeared to be driving towards to a large lot with other intercity coaches. When I got home I did some research on Google Street view and I found a "Grey Line of Seattle" yard (4500 W Marginal Way SW, Seattle, WA 98106). It appears that Greyhound is either storing their buses there or contracting with them for bus maintenance. That would explain why I often see Greyhound buses exiting SR 99 out my window.

Also during a trip to Portland last week I spotted a G4500 in the neoclassical livery pulling into the station. Every other bus (about 6) was an old beat up G4500. There was also a BoltBus X3-45 parked along the wall. I assuming it was a layover waiting to return to Seattle that afternoon.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Nice spotting! Did you see any 102DL3's or D4505's in Portland? They are supposed to run the Portland-Denver route, which is too hard for G4500's to handle.

There's still too many old G4500's in the PNW. Three months ago I saw #7095 parked in Sacramento around 4:00 PM, probably waiting for Schedule 8313 to San Francisco which departs at 5:30 PM. Initially I thought it was waiting for 1436 to Portland or 9303 to Los Angeles but they seem too late to have been those runs. Still trying to find out what model runs Sacramento-Portland, maybe I'll have to deal with a G4500 anyway.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Nice spotting! Did you see any 102DL3's or D4505's in Portland? They are supposed to run the Portland-Denver route, which is too hard for G4500's to handle.


It was just a quick glance as me and my fiancée walked from Union Station to the Downtown area. The G4500 was the only bus in the neoclassic livery, all the rest (as I said, about 6 buses) appeared to be really, REALLY beat up G4500's in the original white livery. Definitely didn't see a D4505. I don't think there was a 102DL3, if there was it would have been in the white livery (but are there any left in the white livery at this point?)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Pretty sure none of the active 102DL3's are still in white. Apprently the last batch was rebuilt in late 2013 just before the G4500 rebuilds began. The G4500 rebuilds might be an extension of the 102DL3 rebuilds, since when the last 102DL3's were rebuilt, the first G4500's followed up into the shops.

There are still DL3's sitting around in the charter fleet but they are not for scheduled service due to lack of a wheelchair lift. All of the lift-equipped ones already got rebuilt. Greyhound Canada still has a few white DL3's but most are rebuilt already as well.

Sucks for the PNW and me, then, since if those G4500's are _really_ beat up, they might be those late-model ones that tried to solve the problems but ended up with axles falling off.

Greyhound Canada seems to be really trying to improve their image. Merely two years ago their fleet was filled with terribly beat up buses, paint falling off, angry drivers, losing business. Now they're scrapping the G4500's, and quickly rebuilding the DL3's. They have white D4505's as well.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just looked over Greyhound's roster. They took delivery of more X3-45's. Now the numbers are up to 86294. Bravo at the efforts to quell fleet shortages! Finally Greyhound has 1506 units again. They say that there's going to be something special for the 100th Anniversary, "just wait for it". Now let me take pictures instead of detaining bus photographers for questioning.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Made a new Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York-Denver_route_(Greyhound).

Ricky, you're on Wikipedia too, aren't you? Let's help increase bus knowledge!


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## rickycourtney

So here are my fleet notes from Canada:

I rode 0861 & 0868 both were Prevost X3-45 coaches in the BoltBus livery. At the Vancouver station I also saw 0860 (BoltBus X3-45) and 0889 (BoltBus D4505). I also spotted another BoltBus D4505 as we went up I-5 but I didn't catch the unit number.

As far as the Greyhound units go... you'll be happy to hear it was a sea of 102DL3 units. I spotted 1125, 1134, 6064, 6229, 6278 and 6311. Some of the coaches listed were parked behind at the bus bays, but some were parked behind the station and some were in the garage (but not on lifts). Almost all were in the neoclassic livery with one exception... there was a G4500 in the old white livery (forgot to grab the unit number). It was probably one of the better looking G4500 units I've seen... meaning that it only look beat up (not beat to hell  ). No clue where these 102DL3 were going to or coming from (but they looked like Greyhound Canada units to me.)







As far as the seats... I went back and re-read your posts and did my homework. The older Premier LS seats look great but they really leave much to be desired in the comfort category. The seat was hard and seemed to be tilted forward and I kept sliding forward in it. It was fine for a 4 hour trip with plenty of opportunities, but it would be torture to sit in this seat on a long-haul Greyhound. Also the power outlets weren't very "grabby"... and my iPhone charger would jiggle its way out every 15-20 minutes. But it wasn't all bad... I like that these seats have a really generous recline and the extra legroom is great. I also liked the center armrests, elastic cupholders and magazine straps (handy for holding customs forms too!). I also appreciate that the seats have seatbelts (I wore mine and found it very comfortable) and supposedly have better compartmentalization than other belted seats.

Here's where the homework comes in... I realized that the old Amtrak California coaches had the Amaya Patroit seats and I agree they are MUCH more comfortable. The new Amtrak California D4505 coaches have Amaya A-2TEN seats. They appear to be a updated version of the Patroit seats but with seatbelts. Personally I always thought these A-2TEN seats were more comfortable than the Patroit seats but that may just be because they were newer.

I'll post my full trip report later (with less of this inside politics of buses).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Are you sure they (old Amtrak buses) had Amaya Patriots? I think it would be great for Greyhound to order D4505's with Amaya Patriots and seat belt packs. I've never heard of Amaya A-2TEN, here's Amaya's intercity seating site: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/ES/productos/asientos_foraneos/patriot_pt/.

I cannot understand Spanish but I think "Asientos Urbanos" means "Urban bus seating", Asientos Suburbanos means "suburban bus seating", and "Asientos Foráneos" means "intercity bus seating."

Now you see why I love the 102DL3. It has those Patriot PT seats resurfaced with leather and increased legroom. It's basically the best of both, despite not having seatbelts, but I see Greyhound could easily install seat belt packs.

Very happy to see all those 102DL3's in Vancouver. Those are definitely all Greyhound Canada units. I think, and I may be wrong, but I think 1125 and 1134 run nationwide in Canada while 6064, 6229, 6278, and 6311 run the southerly highways. The former have been spotted up in Whitehorse but the latter have only been spotted on the major highways. The 6000's were transferred from the US so they are probably internally ill-equipped to run very far north.

Edit: Oh yeah, I heard the Greyhound Canada G4500's were "overhauled" around 2005. Don't know the extent of these overhauls. They are probably in better shape than the American G4500's, but they are getting retired "by April", says a member of GTE. There used to be loads of them spotted in Vancouver, most are now retired and scrapped.

I hear 1134 has Amaya Torino VIP seating, like this: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_vip/. Same seats as LuxBusAmerica, I believe. Now I also found the A-2TEN on the same site.

I'm also surprised you didn't see any GLC D4505's in Vancouver. Really interested to ride a 102DL3 with Torino VIP.


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## rickycourtney

Now that you've shown me more pictures of those Amaya Patriot seats I can say for sure that those are the ones that used to be on the old Amtrak California buses.

Looking at the website you sent me I realized that the new Amtrak California D4505 buses actually have two different models of seats. The 2012 coaches have the Amaya Torino Standard seats while the 2013's have the Amaya A-2TEN. They look very similar... but the A-2TEN has an integrated seatbelt while the seatbelt is optional on the Torino Standard (the seat comfort is about the same, but wearing the A-2TEN seatbelt is more comfortable. Humorously the fabric used on the Amtrak California D4505 coaches is the same as the seats pictured online.

Here are the Torino Standard seats:







And the Amaya A-2TEN:




It also appears that Amaya Patriot doesn't have an optional three point seatbelt. If Greyhound installed them, it would be an aftermarket thing and at that point... it's probably not worth it.

But again, I honestly think that these new Torino Standard and A-2TEN seats are just a bit more comfortable than the older Patriot seats (and a lot more comfortable than the Premier LS seats).

Also another thought from my BoltBus trip... the driver did a great job giving his spiels. He went over travel times, location operation of the bathroom, warned passengers to hold the back of the seats when the coach was in motion, operation of the air vents (he said the A/C was set at 72 but to tell him if it got too hot/cold) and the operation of the WiFi system.

About the only thing he never mentioned was using the seat belts. I'm really surprised that for liability purposes Greyhound doesn't ask drivers to say something to the effect of "while you're seated please fasten your seat belt" in their spiel. As you can see Amtrak California has a big fasten seatbelt sign embroidered into the headrests (no such thing on the older Premier LS seats).


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've never seen seat belts mentioned at all when riding Greyhound. Also, I've never seen anyone using them. Perosnally I think Patriot PT is better than the regular Patriot, Torino Standard, or A-2TEN. But that's just because the Patriot PT has a really nice pillow headrest, while the others have narrow block headrests. The Patriot PT is amazing on overnight trips, feels like there's a real pillow there.

Now I've never taken a bus with Torino VIP, AFAIK, so no idea how good those are. Since they are called "VIP", I believe they must be Amaya's top product. Greyhound Canada has a lot of them. They have winged headrests instead of block or pillow headrests, very unfamiliar with them.

Oh yeah, I told my Greyhound photoshooting story on this thread: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum/24-non-rail-transportation/. You just HAVE to check it out.


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## rickycourtney

Agreed that those old Patroit seats do have comfortable headrests. I slept through many a LA to Bakersfield trip... But I found the headrest on the A-2TEN to be just as comfortable for sleeping. I actually thought that the Torino Standard was the most comfortable because the mount for the shoulder belt was right at head level. That let me rest my head on the shoulder belt as I slept. But I'm not sure if the same layout would be comfortable for others.

But since Greyhound won't be buying anymore Patroit seats due to the lack of 3 point belts... It's my humble opinion that the A-2TEN or the Torino Standard would be a better choice than the Premier LS seats.

But that's just my 2 cents and Greyhound appears to be very committed to using the Premier LS.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound's not commited to anything right now, they're testing all kinds of bus models. I think they could be convinced to using the Torino VIP, which seems better than the Torino Standard or A-2TEN. Since Greyhound Canada already uses them, why not the US? I'm sure it's not much more expensive than Premier LS, it could even be cheaper since labour in Mexico is generally paid less.

Did I tell you they sent a Prevost here yesterday? Check this out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13677698763/in/pool-bus_pictures. #86222 "RENO, NV" sign. Could not shoot from the front, was blocked.


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## rickycourtney

I was really impressed by the X3-45. The ride was really smooth and there was very little engine noise.

So changing topics a bit... has anyone posted any interior pictures of the refurbished G4500 coaches yet?


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## Swadian Hardcore

No interior pics found yet, but did find this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13659578134/in/pool-go_greyhound

And this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13659230315/in/pool-go_greyhound/

I just uploaded my last batch of pictures before leaving.

Here's my new avatar and my favorite bus: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13686926033/

Here's the Prevost in Reno: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13686928173/in/pool-busstationsandlayovers/

Side of a D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13686930433/in/pool-busstationsandlayovers/

Overview of the fleet: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13686890305/in/pool-busstationsandlayovers/

Amtrak D4505 with the old rear end alongside a car: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13677714623/

Check out my photostream for more photos.


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## rickycourtney

Well on that note... I hope you have a great trip!

I'm sure you're going to blown away by the scenery in Yosemite. I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes and seeing pictures of the scenery and your transportation there.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the California cars & the Comet cars... and hopefully the bus gods will smile upon you and give you a 102DL3 for your trip.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, sir, I am hoping for that 102DL3. Too bad transit in Reno sucks, and I have to depart really early for my Greyhound since it takes so long to get there. Can't park at the terminal long-term. Nice station though, just bad area.

A Prevost would be interesting too but I can ride that on BoltBus when I plan to go to Pacific Northwest. Would be a nice segment on the way to Western Canada. So I just want a 102DL3 now, since it's got the best seats anyway.

Edit:: Oh, you might want to try out a G4500, just a short ride to Ellensburg or Olympia maybe, just to see what they're like. Very few of them actually smell like burning plastic, but they are made with a plastic body so they always have a "plastic" feel. You probably won't like it but then again, it's not too bad for a try. Some people actually like them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll quickly talk about my Greyhound ride for a bit. The trip report's coming. Good and bad mixed together.

Outbound first. Rode Schedule 8311 from Reno to Sacramento, it was continuing to San Francisco. Bus was 2013 MCI D4505 #86555, based from Los Angeles and equipped with a Cummins ISX12 and 50 American Seating Premier LS-1. Driver was a African-American name Ken who took along his little kid.

Departed 20 minutes late due to misplaced senior passenger, can't remeber that man's name. Driver stood up facing the pax and did his annoucements with the speaker pulled out. Good driver but very uncomfortable seats on this bus. I sat in Seat 9, left 3rd row. Seat sunk down when I sat on it. Couldn't stand up on this type of bus. Full load. Arrived on time to Sacramento. Would prefer a rebuilt 102DL3 or even a G4500 over this thing.

Way back to Reno was 1999 MCI 102DL3 #6909, unknown base, sat in Seat 5, left 2nd row, Schedule 8308 San Francisco-Reno. Much nicer seats. Excellent 51 Amaya Patriot PT. Far better than other Greyhound buses. The bus rode very smoothly but the security shield rattled a bit since it was not installed when the bus was built, later retrofitted. Didn't expect to see it in SFD but there it was. Nice driver named Juan. Took an extra stop in Colfax. Departed on time, arrived on time.

Overall, good trip and I will continue to use Greyhound for my travel needs, but I'll be hunting for more 102DL3's, and trying to avoid the X3-45's and D4505's with the original Premier LS-1. However, the YARTS D4500CT's with Premier-2 cloth covers were quite a bit more comfortable. Even better was the AC Transit D4500 with unknown old-fashioned seating.

Anyway, full report coming up with pictures. This report will come on the Amtrak Trip Reports forum as I will also include my Amtrak trip and some photos from the train.

Now if Ricky is going to read this, please do consider riding a G4500 sometime, just because it's more comfrotable than the new buses with Premier LS-1.


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## rickycourtney

This is probably the better thread to talk about the "inside baseball" of Greyhound. I'd prefer to keep my previous thread on the topic of BoltBus.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'll quickly talk about my Greyhound ride for a bit. The trip report's coming. Good and bad mixed together.
> 
> Outbound first. Rode Schedule 8311 from Reno to Sacramento, it was continuing to San Francisco. Bus was 2013 MCI D4505 #86555, based from Los Angeles and equipped with a Cummins ISX12 and 50 American Seating Premier LS-1. Driver was a African-American name Ken who took along his little kid.
> 
> Departed 20 minutes late due to misplaced senior passenger, can't remeber that man's name. Driver stood up facing the pax and did his annoucements with the speaker pulled out. Good driver but very uncomfortable seats on this bus. I sat in Seat 9, left 3rd row. Seat sunk down when I sat on it. Couldn't stand up on this type of bus. Full load. Arrived on time to Sacramento. Would prefer a rebuilt 102DL3 or even a G4500 over this thing.
> 
> Way back to Reno was 1999 MCI 102DL3 #6909, unknown base, sat in Seat 5, left 2nd row, Schedule 8308 San Francisco-Reno. Much nicer seats. Excellent 51 Amaya Patriot PT. Far better than other Greyhound buses. The bus rode very smoothly but the security shield rattled a bit since it was not installed when the bus was built, later retrofitted. Didn't expect to see it in SFD but there it was. Nice driver named Juan. Took an extra stop in Colfax. Departed on time, arrived on time.


Glad to hear you got to ride on a 102DL3.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Overall, good trip and I will continue to use Greyhound for my travel needs, but I'll be hunting for more 102DL3's, and trying to avoid the X3-45's and D4505's with the original Premier LS-1.


Well it's unfortunate you don't get a lot of say in the matter. Greyhound will give you whatever bus they have. It would be nice if they let you pick the bus (of course the un-refurbished G4500's would never get to run!)

It's a shame the X3-45's have these uncomfortable seats. I was REALLY impressed by the bus otherwise. The ride was really smooth and quiet. I know you said they have smaller luggage bins (Prevost claims they have the largest underfloor surface area in the industry) but the passenger cabin feels like it has more headroom. I didn't measure it but I'm 6'3" so I appreciate every inch of headroom I can get.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> However, the YARTS D4500CT's with Premier-2 cloth covers were quite a bit more comfortable. Even better was the AC Transit D4500 with unknown old-fashioned seating.


Wait, I've never heard of the Premier-2. Where did you read about it? I'm glad to hear they're more comfortable.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyway, full report coming up with pictures. This report will come on the Amtrak Trip Reports forum as I will also include my Amtrak trip and some photos from the train.
> 
> Now if Ricky is going to read this, please do consider riding a G4500 sometime, just because it's more comfrotable than the new buses with Premier LS-1.


I look forward to reading your report.

I really don't want to take one far but I'd consider taking a short trip down to Tacoma if I have a day free.


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## rickycourtney

Oh! I almost forgot. I was in the area yesterday and today so I walked by the Seattle Greyhound station and did a bit of bus spotting for you.

Right as I walked up on Wednesday an un-refurbushed G4500 (#7263) was pulling out of the station. This unit was a stereotypically junky G4500 (dirty, decals fading, side panels dented.) I couldn't catch the head sign but it did appear to be departing with passengers onboard.





After that, I grabbed a couple of pictures of a refurbished G4500 (#7028) as it was stopped at the station. It appeared to have finished dropping off passengers and a few minutes later it left (presumably to go back to the yard.)





Right after it left another refurbished G4500 (#7265) pulled into the station and passengers streamed off.





The next day I walked by and the same un-refurbushed G4500 (#7263) was back boarding passengers. Again I neglected to look at the head sign. I was too distracted by a unknown older model Prevost (#6668). This thing was pure white except with a silver Greyhound "running dog" logo stuck on it's nose. No "Greyhound" lettering except for the small legal copy on the side panels.





Here's the other thing... I tried as hard as possible to determine what the seats are like on these G4500's are like but I couldn't. The windows are just too darkly tinted and I didn't want to raise any suspicions at the station. But what I can tell you is that the outline of the seats appears to be the exact same as the seats on the un-refurbished. So it's possible that Greyhound simply put new leather covers over the old seats (like on the 102DL3) or they didn't bother making any changes to the seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Woah, those are some big pictures. Too bad I can't see through the windows to see what's inside. That Prevost H3-45 (#6998) is second-hand from Coach America Phoenix and operate Seattle-Vancouver, occasionally to Portland, according to Keegan on GTE. Accoridng to some Flickr photos, they are slwoly being painted blue and have leather seats inside, but are not any Greyhound fleet seats.

The Premier-2 is just the best name I could think of for the firmer Premier LS with what appears to be an American Seating 2005 seat bottom. The seatback is still no good but the bottom is better, though the footrest is gone. I thought this was the new version until I rode #86555, built in 2013, and still has the uncomfortable Premier LS.

Found this rebuilt G4500 shot, don't know if you've seen it before: https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/5274810/or/532537704/name/20140113_200312.jpg.

Seats definately look to be leather but I don't know what type. Looks to be either Patriot PT taken out from retired MC-12 and 102D3, removed rows from 102DL3 for extra legroom, or it could be the orignal G4500 seats resurfaced, that would be Amaya Brasil with leather slapped on. I know the original 12 G4500 pilot rebuilds had Patriot PT, but now that large-scale rebuilding has started, I don't know if they have enough Patriot PT left in the shops to fill them all.

The Amaya Brasil isn't too bad, I'd say about the same as Amtrak Cascades seating but more run-down along with the whole G4500 bus which is falling apart after crossing the million-mile mark. Legroom is about 32", same as the plane, until the get rebuilt with extra legroom. Of course the lift seat and "shotgun" seat have extra legroom.


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## rickycourtney

That link is dead when I click on it. Maybe you can post the image directly.

Also, I noticed that the refurbished G4500's all had stickers that say "Seating Capacity: 50" I guess that means that one row of seats was removed from the G4500 along with the middle seat in the rear.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Can't find the imaga now. I actually saw #7028 with the old livery in Reno back in September 2013, I guess what they did was they took delivery of those D4505's in October and sent them to Los Angeles, kicked out the G4500's to the East for rebuilds, and in January, sent those G4500's to Seattle, replacing more old G4500's for rebuilds, until they get done over and the last G4500 rebuilds will probably go somewhere else.

I saw #7077 in March but then it was spotted in the East so probably got sent for a rebuild alon with #7103 and #7170. Lots of rebuilding going on, seems like. I guess a second batch of rebuilds was rolled out around March and #7077 was probably part of the theird batch. I estimate the thrid batch to be done in May. Don't know how many in each batch but there are about 60 based in Seatle so I guess each batch is about 30 since half of the G4500's you spotted recently were rebuilt. Also, #7137 was confirmed rebuilt.

At this rate, G4500 rebuilds will be done by August 2015, in line with a 2011 Greyhound news release saying they will have an "all-blue fleet by 2016". Remember they still have some 102D3's and C2045's in the spare fleet, which will probably get retired in 2015.

Regarding 102DL3's, I found out #6909 is actually based from Los Angeles, it's one of the very few based from Los Angeles and a comfortable bus indeed. I belive it is better than the Amtrak California D4505's because this one had wide headrests, extra legroom, and leather seat covers.

Our driver, Juan, was a nice guy but openly announced that he wasn't familiar with "these old buses". He said he hadn't driven to Reno in six months and hadn't driven a 102DL3 for a long time, which showed clearly when he drove very slowly up hills, like 30 mph. I know the DL3 is great at climbing hills and shouldn't have been going so slowly, but I guess if you don't get used to the bus, then don't drive fast.

He did gave us an extra rest stop in Colfax since he said passengers would "ask for a rest stop there anyway". Also the Wi-Fi router disconnected. Well, what do you expect from moving wireless signals track down a bus at 65 mph through the mountains?


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## Green Maned Lion

Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?


Because they are easier to clean. If you have cloth seats that get stains, the stains stick. If you have the cloth seats with the little fibers sticking out, that's even worse because grime sticks to it.

I think the different models have different types of leather, the new seats appear to have worse leather since they are stiffer on the outside and softer on the inside, while the old seats are hard on the inside and soft on the outside.

Anyway, the new seats really suck, but some of the new buses have different Premier LS which is better. Though the closer than a bus comes to a train would still be the rebuilt Greyhound-spec 102DL3 with Patriot PT, and it really does feel like a small one-car train when you're on it. I don't know if the Canada-spec 102DL3 is better or worse since I've never taken it before.

See, this mix of buses and seats really ends up worsenging Greyhound's reputation since people think the old white buses (G4500) are uncomfortable and unreliable, but people think the new blue buses (D4505 & X3-45) are still uncomfortable. Very few people know that Greyhound rebuilt some old buses and pretty much kept the best of old and new together.

When it comes to Greyhound, expect surprises, and pray for the good surprises. I guess the bus gods did indeed give me that 102DL3 when it was expected to be another D4505.  Which all adds to the fun of bus travel.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?


As swadian said, leather (or bonded leather) is much easier to keep clean. You can just wipe any messes off with a wet cloth. It also is less likely to absorb any foul odors.
But first and foremost, it gives the buses a classier look.

Greyhound is trying to reinvent its brand and present a better image of its self. That's why it's been undertaking this massive program of buying new buses and refurbish older buses adding leather seats, legroom, power outlets and Wi-Fi.

Many of the major airlines have replaced fabric seats with leather seats for the same reasons (cleanliness, image.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> .....
> 
> Many of the major airlines have replaced fabric seats with leather seats for the same reasons (cleanliness, image.)


Yes, the airlines are doing that, while reducing legroom at the same time. Southwest and United are both reducing legroom, American already did it. Not sure about Delta.

I think Greyhound doing it is fine since they're inproving service overall and increasign legroom. But airlines doing it just desn't seem to fit with the rest of their actions, including route cuts, hiked fares, and reduced legroom. At least Greyhound is adding more rural routes and long-distance routes.

So here's the deal: airlines are becoming Megabus with wings, and Greyhound is becoming Southwest with wheels.


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## Green Maned Lion

Leather very much does retain odor. It's an organic material, and it gets really gross. It's probably bonded leather or possibly just a good vinyl. Leather also can not be cleaned using water- it dries it the heck out.. Those torn seats you photographed from what I could see were vinyl.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I believe the Premier LS has vinyl, while the Patriot PT has bonded leather. Buses with both seat models do smell a lot better than the G4500 with Brasil cloth seats. Note it's _Brasil_, not _Brazil_.

I have no idea what covers the Torino VIP has, which is the seating on Greyhound Canada DL3's and LuxBusAmerica.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Leather very much does retain odor. It's an organic material, and it gets really gross. It's probably bonded leather or possibly just a good vinyl. Leather also can not be cleaned using water- it dries it the heck out.. Those torn seats you photographed from what I could see were vinyl.


That's why I said that it's less likely to retain odors... especially the odors these seats are likely to pick up from stinky passengers.

Agreed. Water shouldn't be used to clean these seats... But I doubt Greyhounds cleaning crews are using the proper leather cleaners. These seats get a lot of abuse and after 5 years, the seats in the bus I was on look like they were ready for new leather covers.

I *think* they're leather... But it's definitely not expensive leather and it was definitely bonded to some sort of backing.


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## Green Maned Lion

Leather like vinyl has been getting more and more realistic which is why it's becoming more common on automobiles. Cool fact: until the mid 80s almost all Mercedes-Benz products sold in the US had vinyl 'MB-TEX' seats, even the SL roadster and the big S-Class, both of which had inflation adjusted base prices north of $100k. Insanely durable stuff, though- it's why really old and beat up MBs have almost new looking seats. Wish the springs and horsehair pads held up as well as the stuff covering them.

Vinyl is a good choice for a bus operator. It's durable and can be cleaned with a wet rag, and if it's black (a color people seem to like in leather for reasons I've never quite fathomed- if I ever get to custom order the S350 Bluetec or Bentley Mulsanne I've always wanted I'd get it with blue, green, or oxblood leather) it hides all stains perfectly.

But I wouldn't see vinyl/pleather/bonded leather as an upgrade. It doesn't breathe and to me all three seem cheap. I'd order an E-Class with it, but only because of durability and a lack of desire too maintain it (or pay $2000 for the privilege of sitting on a dead cow)


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## Swadian Hardcore

GML, for Greyhound it _is_ an upgrade, because of durability and cleaniless. With huge amounts of different passengers sitting on them all the time, they need to hide stains and be easy to clean. They are used on transcon routes where passengers buy food and eat on the bus, the oil and stains need to be easy to clean. And since a Greyhound bus runs an average of 130,000 miles a year, durability is important too. Especially if you're investing in a $500,000-plus vehicle.

From 2005 until 2010, the 102DL3's were worked very hard and many ran 150,000 plus miles a year, they were run-down and needed that rebuild when they were supplemented by D4505's. But the buses themselves held up very well, even in 2011 you could find un-rebuilt DL3's in good condition. Now they're pushing 2 million miles and expected to remian in service till 2025.

As for Greyhound's cargo services, they're important in Canada but in the US, passengers are still the main business. Greyhound US does not have mini-trailers or tractor-trailers for freight.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Video of a rebuilt G4500 right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2wEEwkc_Q&list=UUDrB9F_--MrEhJjJ8GzgoQg.

#7125 arriving in Las Vegas. You can comment and ask Josh where it was coming from. Since Josh lives in Augusta, I believe it's the Phoenix-Las Vegas route. He must've rode Augusta-Atlanta-Dallas-Phoenix-Las Vegas.

Edit: OK, looks like he was arrivng Las Vegas in the evening since it started out with a bit of light and ended when it was dark. Those seats look to be rebuilt Amaya Brasil, the original G4500 seats, not Patriot PT from retired buses.

I'm pretty sure this is Sked 6362 Phoenix-Las Vegas, and probably arrived a bit early. No idea which garage the bus is based out of, but the closest garage is Los Angeles.


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## rickycourtney

So I found this old National Bus Trader article when the G4500 was introduced: http://www.busmag.com/pdfs/2001-12_MCIG4500.pdf

It's funny... it all seems like a paid PR piece with words like "remarkable, fascinating, interesting" but it's not really a glowing review of the G4500.

Anyways... looking at the picture of the seats on page 6... that's definitely looks like the same seat I spotted through the windows of the refurbished G4500. So I'm guessing they just slapped leather covers over the old seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If you watched the video, that's exactly what they did to the G4500. I've ridden it enough to recognize those Amaya Brasil seats. Apparently "Brasil" means "Brazil" in Spanish, but Brazillians speak mainly Portugese. Don't know why they named it such.

I think they repaired those seats and slapped new covers on them, then took out a row to create extra legroom, also took out the middle seat in the back. Worked fine with the 102DL3's Amaya Patriot PT seats, don't know how it would work with the Gina.

I'll be slowly wiritng a Greyhound Guide and I'll probably post it on a new thread in Non-Rail, don't know where else to put it. I could post it on GTE except those guys are all bus geeks anyway.

How many rebuilt Ginas are you seeing in Seattle? Lots or just a few? I suspect they have a second rebuilt batch in service. Those G4500's really killing Greyhound's name in the PNW.


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## rickycourtney

Ah okay. Just watched the video. Those look like the same seat with leather covers. Looks nice!

Interesting that they're removing the middle seat at the rear of the G4500 considering it wasn't removed from the 102DL3.

I think a Greyhound guide would be good and interesting... The question comes up occasionally on this board.

What do you mean by Ginas? Are you referring to the G4500? I haven't been back to the Greyhound since I last posted.

Frankly I don't think Greyhound has cared about their image in the PNW for the last few years and since 2012 has instead focused on building up the BoltBus image. Bolt is now a big player in the Portland-Seattle-Vancouver market... giving Amtrak and the other luxury bus lines a run for their money.

To put it bluntly, in 2012 the Greyhound name carried too much baggage. No matter how nice the buses are and how fast the express schedules are... It's difficult to get someone to take a bus that says "Greyhound" on the side. "BoltBus" doesn't have the same brand problem.

Now fast forward to 2014... the G4500 coaches are being rebuilt and nationwide the Greyhound brand is slowly recovering, it may be a good time for them to consider investing in the Northwest and establishing a couple of Greyhound Express routes.

PS: I'm still looking forward to your report on your Greyhound/Amtrak/YARTS trip to Yosemite.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sorry, I almost forgot about that trip report! I've been busy lately, and to make things worse, I'm having camera troubles. I could write the report tonight but there wouldn't be many photos. Well?

Some Greyhound guys call the G4500 as the "Gina" or "McGina", short for MCI-Dina G4500. There's all kinds of nicknames circulating on the boards, I've heard "disposable bus", "plastic bus", "fiberglass junk", "dirty dog", etc. But "Gina" just sticks to me.

The two orignally-planned G4500 routes were Dallas-Los Angeles and Chicago-Seattle. Before delivery, that was expanded to include New York-Boston. While Chicago-Seattle was delayed G4500's from 2001 to 2002, then there were so many malfunctions that passengers ran away in hordes and the route was cut in 2004. So Seattle has been "G4500 home base" since 2002.

Apparently the G4500 was supposed to be retired by 2014, just like Greyhound Canada, but due to ADA restrictions, they ended up been saved for rebuilds. That's why Greyhound rebuilt the 102DL3 before the G4500, and that's why rebuilt DL3's with lifts were sent to Canada, many of which you saw in Vancouver on your trip. Now that Greyhound is almost done with DL3 rebuilds, they are rebuilding the G4500, which allows better PNW service, because Seattle doesn't have any home-base DL3's. And you can imagine the problems of switching bus models around in the midst of a fleet shortage.

Another problem right now is that Sacramento-Portland keeps getting packed in the summer. Greyhound stopped "overbooking" and uses a new system now. They are speeding up service and introducing D4505's on it, but buses are sold out all the time. More frequency is needed when the summer schedule begins.

This is what I think Greyhound needs to do:

1. Rebuild the G4500 as fast as possible.

2. Get D4505's and rebuilt G4500's on Sacramento-Portland.

3. Add two Limited schedules on the route, one daytime, one overnight (along current overnight 1440/1431).

4. Introduce Seattle-Vancouver and Seattle-Portland nonstop Expresses using rebuilt G4500's, except border crossing.

5. Put the last rebuilt G4500's onto the other PNW routes.

Railiner explained to me that a "Limited" is a long-distance Express, it's branded "Express" but actually different because it doesn't follow regular Express ops. As for the possbile SAC-PUT Limited, I think it should go: Sacramento-Redding-Medford-_RS Center Point_-Eugene-Salem-Portland.


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## rickycourtney

Yeah man I'd still love to hear about your trip even if there's no pictures. Plus I think your information on the YARTS service will be particularly helpful. You can always add the pictures to the trip report later or add them to your Flickr account.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Yeah man I'd still love to hear about your trip even if there's no pictures. Plus I think your information on the YARTS service will be particularly helpful. You can always add the pictures to the trip report later or add them to your Flickr account.


OK, uh, where should I post it?


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## rickycourtney

Travelogues/Trip Reports under Travel Resources and First Timer Info.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I got Flickr to work for me again, and found this shot of a rebuilt Greyhound G4500 in Seattle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13970158764.

Also this old 2011 shot of three beat-up G4500's in Portland: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6956902548.

Sure looks nicer than it used to be.


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## rickycourtney

So out of curiosity I did a bit of research on the American Seating Premier seat.

It appears that there have been two versions of the seat... the Premier which was built from 2008 until 2012 and the Premier LS which was introduced around March 2012.

So what's the difference? American Seating says the Premier LS has "improved seat cushion comfort, a thinner back and kick panels and reduced seat weight."

So I'm not exactly sure how Greyhound's purchasing process works, but they likely order these seats from American Seating and have them shipped to Prevost or MCI who installs them into the buses as they come off the production line. If the lead times are long enough or if Greyhound got a deal on the remaining stock of the older Premier seats... they could be on most of the 2012 buses and maybe even some of the 2013 buses.

That could explain why you found the seats on the older YARTS D4500CT more comfortable than on the newer Greyhound D4505.

I know that I was not impressed with the older Premier seats on the 2009 X3-45 I took.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wait a sec, the Premier and Premier LS are made by American Seating. The Patriot, Patriot PT, and Patriot PL are made by Amaya. So let's just forget about the Patriot right now, since they're fine, well the PT is the best version but the others are OK.

As for the Premier seats, I've ridden 2010 D4505's that didn't have footrests and felt the same as the YARTS D45' except with "leatherette" covers. So I don't know what's going on. It seems totally random, because I had ridden three 2013 D4505's before #86555, they were #86521, 86542, and 86549. None of these had footrests, but none of them sagged. And BoltBus also has 2008 X3-45's, how could the Premier be in production starting in 2008? Even more confusing, Greyhound has 18 2007 X3-45's with Patriot PT.

Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Ricky, you seem to be doing too much research into these seat types considering you haven't even ridden a "true" Greyhound.

On another note, since you saw rebuilt G4500 #7202 running SEA-MSL, looks like the G4500 rebuilds are getting done quick. See, the great thing about Greyhound is that, when the G4500 rebuilds are done, you could ride a daytime bus to Missoula, so you don't have to sleep at all. Whereas if you rode Amtrak to, say, Whitefish, you would have to sleep on the EB.


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## rickycourtney

This is why I shouldn't post before I've had my morning coffee. I meant to say that the *Premier* was introduced in *2008*.

I've gone back and edited my last post for clarity.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> This is why I shouldn't post before I've had my morning coffee. I meant to say that the *Premier* was introduced in *2008*.
> 
> I've gone back and edited my last post for clarity.


I'm still confused about the seats and I haven't sorted that out yet. Maybe I should ask on GTE. But moreover, I would like to ask you again, why do you conduct so much research into Greyhound buses when you don't ride Greyhound that much? You would think that with the amount of research you do, you'd be Road Rewards 15 already and getting free tickets every year.


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## rickycourtney

It appears that Greyhound has 4 primary seat models... Patriot, Brasil, Premier and Premier LS.

But as you pointed out, those seat types don't necessarily correspond to the model and the model year of the bus.

86555 is simply Greyhound's fleet number. It doesn't necessarly mean that it rolled off the assembly line in that order. But what is clear was that right around the time that that bus was delivered... Greyhound was switching from the Premier to the Premier LS.

From experience I can tell you that the 2009 X3-45 has the older Premier seats, they were equipped with the footrest and they were horribly uncomfortable.

As to why I do so much research on Greyhound... I'm a transportation geek. I love trains, buses, planes and cars. I prefer trains a bit more than the other forms of transportation (call it a bit of romance from my childhood growing up near the train tracks.)

I am the proud owner of an older Toyota truck that I maintain myself (mostly!) but living in Seattle I made the decision to park it at my parents house in LA and now I take public transportation everywhere (including a bus twice a day!)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Seattle does a good transit bus system. Lots of those 60-footer artic buses. If I still lived there, I would use transit too, as I always did when I was there.

As for #86555, I have Greyhound VIN's and I know in which sequence those buses rolled out of the factory. I don't think they use a full-scale assembly line, instead more like the old-fashioned grouped work in the factories.

Here are some Greyhound D4505 VIN's:

MCI 86521 1M86DMBA2DP013049

MCI 86542 1M86DMBA9EP013082

MCI 86555 1M86DMBA7EP013095

As you can see, 86521 ansd 86542 both rolled out earlier, with lower serial numbers, yet they had the better seats. I'm learning about VIN's from GTE. "1M86" is the prefix for the D4505, "1M8P" for the 102DL3, and "3BMX" for the G4500. "B" in the 7th digit stands for Cummins ISX12. And "P" in the eleventh digit stands for a Pembina-built bus.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Seattle does a good transit bus system. Lots of those 60-footer artic buses. If I still lived there, I would use transit too, as I always did when I was there.


I have enjoyed using the system. I like the artics as well, especially the New Flyer DE60LFR. Those fins on top give them a nice clean look, they're quiet and the seats are comfortable. I also really like the new Orion VII 40 footers (they're super quiet, and don't have that HVAC sound you hate.)

Metro's older buses use these horrible high back, fully upholstered seats. They look like they'd be comfortable, but you constantly slide around on them and the springs start to dig into your back and butt. They're American Seating KC548.

The newer buses all have 4ONE Aries seats... they look uncomfortable but they're actually not bad for a short ride.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.


Bravo, Swadian!!! Great video!

Even better, are some of the others linked on the YouTube....Watched that 'Highway 61' several times...and it had many other nostagic links....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_no8n79Vo


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Greyhound vid from the Calgary-Vancouver route, appears to be in Kicking Horse Canyon between Field and Golden:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38sceRUHHw. Right along the Canadian Pacific.
> 
> 
> 
> Bravo, Swadian!!! Great video!
> 
> Even better, are some of the others linked on the YouTube....Watched that 'Highway 61' several times...and it had many other nostagic links....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8_no8n79Vo
Click to expand...

Woah, the old days of Greyhound rural service! Did you ever drive a Scenicruiser? Alabama too, that's one of the few states that still have rural service, in the form of Greyhound Connect. Speaking of rural service, do you think Greyhound's ever-expanding bus sizes are working against it? Like how Greyhound gradually went from 30-footers to 45-footers.


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## railiner

I did work for Greyhound from 1971 to 1973, but not as a driver. I did however get a few chances to operate Scenicruiser's for a brief period when I was in maintenance....

I think that the larger the bus, the better....more seats equal lower expense. It costs virtually the same to operate a forty-five footer as a thirty-five footer, at least in driver and fuel expense.....

As you probably know, my current employer operates many traditional rural local routes, in addition to our express routes. The local routes amazingly still carry pretty well, even though most of the population along it have cars, many living in The City, do not, and use our service to visit there. Also the residents of the rural area's, avoid driving to The City, due to the high traffic, high expense of parking, etc., when they come down to visit or to see shows, etc. And there is little competition, as most start-ups are only interested in going after high volume express routes....


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## trainman74

Guess this is the best thread to post this -- if you advance this video clip to 1:33, you'll see a 1964 Greyhound commercial contrasting airline and bus travel, followed by a local tag with a live announcer. (Unfortunately, there's a sync issue with the videotape, so the picture is wavy.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I did work for Greyhound from 1971 to 1973, but not as a driver. I did however get a few chances to operate Scenicruiser's for a brief period when I was in maintenance....
> 
> I think that the larger the bus, the better....more seats equal lower expense. It costs virtually the same to operate a forty-five footer as a thirty-five footer, at least in driver and fuel expense.....
> 
> As you probably know, my current employer operates many traditional rural local routes, in addition to our express routes. The local routes amazingly still carry pretty well, even though most of the population along it have cars, many living in The City, do not, and use our service to visit there. Also the residents of the rural area's, avoid driving to The City, due to the high traffic, high expense of parking, etc., when they come down to visit or to see shows, etc. And there is little competition, as most start-ups are only interested in going after high volume express routes....


Doesn't a shoter bus use less fuel than a long bus though? I mean, would a 102D3 get more MPG than a 102DL3, because of the smaller size? I discovered, with help from GTE, that most Greyhound DL3's have 370 hp Detriot 60-R's, while the D3's were fine with 310 hp Detriot 60-T's. Greyhound Canada DL3's have 425 hp Detroit 60-P's to pull those trailers faster.

I guess the epitome of road efficiency is supposed to be this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/canadagood/3654373126/sizes/l/in/photolist-6yVBPd-6Dqsui-6TWczm-6TWcVN-73hwWz-74VobJ-admqPb-89GZ8t-j3GfEE-bF51cc-febT11-fdWAfk-iwjZjn-iwk8u9-8BmvuC-iFyfz2-8ffiju-a2XBYu-iFyibV-iwJ3bY-hMDTMi-iTnV4r-iTrLoo-iTnW92-eiuHQH-eiAt5U-eiuHNv-jYgRaM-8NpZiS-j3E7At-ahC5bn-ahERaG-ahERcU-ahERnu-ahERqd-ahC5oT-ahC5mi-arFYTi-84sGXd-hMCLqP-hMDBqm-hMDf9A-ahERxh-ahERff-ahC5yB-8zGEy8-9R9JXk-8pZBdx-iFAqxo-cYKfg7-hJNAPG/. Offers 50 passenger seats and 1050 sq.feet cargo space.

But that huge vechicle measures 61.5 feet long and probably guzzles fuel while not getting nearly 50 pax, so maybe a "cargo combo" would be better instead of the trailer, like a 102D3 with a T engine carrying half pax half cargo. That would be better for Whitehorse and may have been able to save the Yellowknife route. The Yellowknife route seemed fine when it used MC-9 Combos, then got cut after it started using Big D's with trailers.

What does ADI use on rural routes, and is cargo a big factor?



trainman74 said:


> Guess this is the best thread to post this -- if you advance this video clip to 1:33, you'll see a 1964 Greyhound commercial contrasting airline and bus travel, followed by a local tag with a live announcer. (Unfortunately, there's a sync issue with the videotape, so the picture is wavy.)


Nice ad, too bad for the poor quality. Surely does apply for routes like Reno to Salt Lake City, where bus travel is not impeded by congestion, and offers much better times than Amtrak, day travel, no overnight required. Most people get really bored after driving across the Great Basin. Not to mention that it always gets deluxe buses and experienced drivers. When I rode #52672 on that route and caught the high-view seat, that makes one of the best bus rides ever.


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## railiner

The longer and slightly heavier 45 footer perhaps uses a trace more fuel than a 40 footer, primarily due to the additional weight. But not nearly in proportion to the extra seats and revenue afforded by the longer bus.

As for TNY, in general, we use any bus on any route, with a few exceptions....we use our three state-funded D4505's on Albany-Long Island trips, to keep them as mandated only operating in the State of New York (our other routes may cross thru NJ or Pa, and we don't send them to either Quebec or Ontario). We use our Pine Hill Van Hools on our long local routes to Oneonta and beyond, We use our one ADT Van Hool on our last local daily trip to Albany as the run is not 'protected', and its 57 seats can come in handy...

We use our newest H3-45's on our thru trips to Canada. We use our older H3-45's, our J4500's, and our XL-II's on our commuter and other local trips....

We don't carry much GPX anymore,,,,our only need for large cargo space (for baggage), is when colleges start and end their semester's.......or during holiday's and special events like the Caribana carnival in Toronto and the similar one in Brooklyn....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Seems like Pine Hill is using the Van Hool C2045 correctly, they have a smaller turning circle so they're probably good for rural routes. I remember Byron did an old trip report on GTE, he said he rode a TNM&O C2045 from Dallas to Denver, and it was beat-up and terribly rough, presumably because they're not designed for long-haul highway routes. Would you agree?

I heard from Tom Langford that Kerriville's T2145's were "near dead" by 2 years old.

As for rural routes, do you think the Canadian remote routes are better with trailers or combos?


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## railiner

Pine Hill is only currently buying Van Hool's. Adirondack and New York Trailways are buying Prevost H3-45's. That is the owner's preference, but I am not privvy to his reasoning on that matter. Pine Hill has 2006, 2009, 2012, and 2013 model C2045's. The 2014's will be the new CX45. No plans to get the TX45, which is more like the Prevost H3-45. The CX is more like the Prevost X3-45...

So far the Van Hools in the fleet are holding up as well as any of our Prevost's or MCI's...and of course, they are cheaper to purchase...

As a driver, I would much prefer driving a combo, than a trailer....much easier and safer to handle, although the trailer might be easier to load/unload from....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Do you know why Greyhound Canada switched from combos to trailers and why Greyhound US got rid of all the combos? Seems dumb to use trailers behind a bus like the 102DL3, with their huge turning circles, I mean, the DL3 has a 47-foot circle with the steerable tag axle, but Greyhound locks them so I'm expecting something like 53 feet, then add on the trailer.

Is ADI and company willing to expand out of New York? They could reinstate the US Route 7 service from New York up to Burlington/Montreal, that rural service has potential and fits in with ADI's doctrine. Might be best for ADI instead of NYT or Pine Hiil, but is there really any difference other than name? Is one of them better than the others?


----------



## railiner

At one time, Adirondack did have a run from Albany to Rutland, via Whitehall, similar to the Amtrak Ethan Alan route, while the old Vermont Transit went thru Troy and Bennington.

At the present time, there are no plans that I am aware of to expand into Vermont. It seems that Megabus and some county services have filled some of the vacuum created when Vermont Transit seized operations a few years ago.

As far as ADT, PHK, and NYT are concerned, they are all separate companies. The founders grandchildren, a brother and sister, jointly own ADT and PHK. The grandson alone, started NYT, partly from some assets of the defunct Empire Trailways. The driver's all have separate union contracts....ADT and PHK are represented by the United Transportation Union, NYT are represented by the Teamster's. The ADT buses are primarily maintained in the Albany garage, the PHK and NYT buses in the Kingston garage. NYT doesn't have its own garage. Central Dispatch manages ADT and PHK at the Hurley, NY headquarters, while NYT is managed from the Rochester location. The owner and top executives are in Hurley.

ADT and NYT are in the "pool" arrangement with Greyhound, while PHK is not. There's a lot more to the histories, but this should tell you the basics....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks, I get it. Greyhound drivers are from the Amalgamated Transit Union, right? Didn't know there were so many other unions, I thought Trailways and Greyhound drivers were both from the ATU. It seems like ADI/NYT/PHK are one of the few old Trailways companies that didn't go to Continental Trailways.

Do you know whether it's good to leave the "MODE" button on the transmission while running on the Interstate? Heard something about that on GTE, someone said his DL3 was crawling up a hill and another one said it's actually the best bus for climbing hills. Does this have to do with the engine? I mean, is a big P engine really worth it?

I actually looked up some examples of D4500's with A engines, 280hp Cummins ISL 9, surely that's underpowered? That's what they have on the hybrids, too.


----------



## railiner

Many of the old Continental Trailways divisions were Amalgamated Transit Union. Others were United Transportation Union. The original ATU began mainly from streetcar's, while the UTU began as the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen, representing steam railways..

While Continental Trailways did own the majority of National Trailways Bus System companies at its end, before Greyhound bought them out, there were still several other independent Trailways carrier's left. Among them were ADT and PHK, Empire Trailways, Capitol Trailways of Pennsylvania, Captal Trailways of Alabama and its affiliiate Colonial Trailways, Martz Trailways, Carolina Trailways (also later bought by Greyhound), Southeastern Trailways and its affiliate Deluxe Trailways, Pacific Trailways, and a few other smaller carrier's. Since the purchase of Continental by Greyhound, and the later start of 'revenue pool' with some of the independent Trailways companies, many companies briefly joined the National Trailways Bus System (including Greyhound!), Peter Pan, but then left, seeing no real benefit of continued membership.

As a result, the Trailways association re-invented itself to survive, becoming more of a trade association, aggressively recruiting very small independent bus owner's, many of whom only ran charters, with no line runs, to join the 'system'. The new mission was no longer to 'compete' with Greyhound, but rather exploit the well known Trailways name to compete with other companies in the charter and tour business. A small company with two or three buses could paint the Trailways logo and name on their buses, and in ads in the yellow pages. People looking to charter a bus would see the ad. and think "Oh, I heard of Trailways...that's a good company",,,,,

As for the mode button....the only time I would use that to manually shift the transmission would be if there was some malfunction in leaving it shift automatically. For example, while climbing a hill, if the transmission did not downshift when needed....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Pacific Trailways? Did they have a big network around here in the West? I heard many Greyhound drivers used to be represented by the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen, but now I only hear or the ATU.

I really don't see the point of so many charter companies competing against each other, these companies probably don't get a lot of business at all. Around here, we have Amador and All-West as big charter companies, but Amador is seen more often and usually on the shuttle runs, not on charters. The other charter buses, you pretty much can't see them at all. What's the point of buying these big buses then not starting a bus line?

Regarding the bus size, do you mean fuel consumption really has to do with weight and not with the length or height of the bus? Is there any big difference between the companies, I mean, is a D4505 more efficient or a X3-45? What about the best-selling J4500, which seems to be overweight for a fiberglass bus?

I thought it was weird on #6909 when Juan crawled up the hills at less than 40 mph, previously even DL3 I'd ridden had cosistantly held 75 mph on the highway, then Juan said he hadn't driven one in about a year. I thought it was the transmission, but do you know why?


----------



## railiner

The story of Pacific Trailways (Mount Hood Stages), is a very sore chapter in Greyhound's history....here is a link to one point of view on the subject http://www.angelfire.com/80s/joycewiggins/Jon-10.html

PT ran basically from Portland via Bend to Boise, and Salt Lake City, with a few branch lines in Oregon, and pooled with Continental Trailways with runs from Dallas, Denver, Grand Junction, and Salt Lake, to Portland and Seattle...

This is not to be confused with Continental Pacific Lines, which ran from San Francisco and Sacramento up US 99 to Portland and Seattle....they pooled with Continental Western Lines (former Santa Fe Trailways) at Sacramento for points south, and with Pacific Trailways at Portland for points southeast....

Yes, fuel consumption is primarily affected by the weight of the bus, althought the height will also affect aerodynamic drag. I'm not an expert, but I don't think length really matters in that regard. Fuel consumption can vary by many factors, including the way the bus is driven, the weather, the state of maintenance,....lots of factors can make two seemingly identical buses deliver different mileage performance.

As far as climbing hills, the state of maintenance again can be a factor....sometimes buses will lose power climbing hills if the 'fuel pro' fuel filter is too full.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, so Pacific Trailways ran along US Route 20. Always thought maybe Greyhound would like to run a sked via US Route 20 or 26 between Bend and Portland. It actually has independant scheduled service from various shuttle lines. Too bad they don't ally with Greyhound.

So I guess given equal state of maintainence and driver competance, the most efficient MCI and Prevost buses would be something like:

X3-45

D4505

102DL3 & D4500

G4500

J4500

E4500

H3-45

102D3 & D4000

H3-40 & H3-41

I don't even know why the D4000, D4005, and H3-41 are even offered given they're pretty much pointless.

I also found this excellent photo of a 102DL3 (#6052): http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_6052-2.jpg. Attractive photos like this would great for Greyhound PR. But I see another DL3, #6259, parked behind it. That bus appears to be idling, with lights and destination sign on. But 6052 is not running. What the heck is 6259 doing nosed behind 6052 wasting diesel?

To make things worse, I found this shot of 6259 from the same photoshoot: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_6259-2.jpg. It's running, but it's stuck in between two other DL3's, 6052 in front and another (6341?) behind! Both other buses are not running. Why does Greyhound have a huge bus idling between two other huge buses that are not running?


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## rickycourtney

John-

Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.

http://www.altoonabustest.com


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> John-
> 
> Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.
> 
> http://www.altoonabustest.com


Thanks!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Looking at the test results, it's weird they would look at a 12-year, 500,000 miles test, when Greyhound plans to use the 102DL3 for 25 years, and 3,300,000 miles, though that is including a rebuild.

All of them use Allison B500 or B500R electric transmissions.

Here are some test results:

MCI 102D3 (aka D4000) w/ Detroit 60-P & Allison B500R: 7.62 mpg highway

MCI D4000N (aka 96D3) w/Detroit 60-P & Allison B500: 7.49 mpg highway

New Flyer D45S w/ Detroit 60-? & Allison B500R: 7.37 mpg highway

Prevost X3-45 w/ Volvo D13H435P & Allison B500: 6.85 mpg highway

MCI D4500 (aka 102DL3) w/ Detroit 60-R & Allison B500: 6.79 mpg highway

MCI D4500CT w/ Caterpillar C13 ACERT & Allison B500: 6.67 mph highway

MCI D4505 w/ Cummins ISX11.9 & Allison B500: 5.92mpg highway

MCI E4500 w/ Detroit 60-P & Allison B500: 5.63 mph highway

When comparing intercity buses, it's virtually pointless to look at the urban and arterial figures, only the commuter figures matter because those are highway figures.

No Van Hool, Dina, or Setra buses have been submitted for testing.


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> John-
> 
> Have you seen the website for the Altoona Bus Research and Testing? They have nearly every conceivable data point on all types of buses (including fuel consumption.) I think you'll find it very interesting.
> 
> http://www.altoonabustest.com


Thanks from me, too. I had forgotten of that test facilities existance...sort of a bus equivalent to the railroad's test center near Pueblo, Co.

Lot's of fascinating details to peruse.

Thanks again for the link.


----------



## rickycourtney

I *think* Altoona testing is voluntary on the part of the manufacturer... but the Federal Transit Administration requires it to be done if federal grants paid for the buses. So that means that most of the tests are done on transit buses and motor coaches that can be used by transit agencies in commuter service.

To that end, most of the tests are set up to test what transit agencies and the FTA wants to know. They give the buses a "simulated" 12-year, 500,000 miles test... which basically means they beat them to hell and back for a few months.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I *think* Altoona testing is voluntary on the part of the manufacturer... but the Federal Transit Administration requires it to be done if federal grants paid for the buses. So that means that most of the tests are done on transit buses and motor coaches that can be used by transit agencies in commuter service.
> 
> To that end, most of the tests are set up to test what transit agencies and the FTA wants to know. They give the buses a "simulated" 12-year, 500,000 miles test... which basically means they beat them to hell and back for a few months.


That makes sense, then. Most transit buses run much less miles before retirement compared to an intercity bus. Apparently transit buses take wear and tear from freuqent braking.

Look at those sample MPG results I posted, the D4505 is much less efficient than both the 102DL3 and X3-45. No wonder Greyhound orders loads of X3-45's and not many D4505's. Also, the little 102D3 is actually quite efficient, would be a great option for rural routes. I never thought the New Flyer D45S would be so good on MPG either. The E4500 is horrible on efficiency.


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## Green Maned Lion

Isn't NFI related to Ikarus?


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Isn't NFI related to Ikarus?


Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries

NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history

edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries
> 
> NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history
> 
> edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....


New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries
> 
> NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history
> 
> edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....
> 
> 
> 
> New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.
Click to expand...

New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

THE CJ said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries
> 
> NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history
> 
> edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....
> 
> 
> 
> New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.
Click to expand...

Neoplan? But didn't Neoplan USA go down anyway? Their AN340/345 were busts as well, and looked a lot like the D45S.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You are far too self-referencing when deciding good and bad.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it is NABI, North American Bus Industries, that evolved from Ikarus.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Bus_Industries
> 
> NFI, New Flyer Industries, evolved from Western Flyer....http://www.newflyer.com/index/history
> 
> edit: I just read the second link's history, and became aware that NFI purchased NABI......so you are correct....they are now related.....
> 
> 
> 
> New Flyer's now the obviously dominant transit manufacturer, but their D45S failed to sell well for some reason, despite high MPG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> New Flyer was trying to do what Neoplan was doing, which didn't work out for them. Neoplan did something right, which allowed them to produce several motorcoaches, including some double deckers that were exported.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Neoplan? But didn't Neoplan USA go down anyway? Their AN340/345 were busts as well, and looked a lot like the D45S.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about before 2006. Neoplan USA produced several AN340/345s for private companies in Florida. I wouldn't consider them a bust, they did pretty well for a manufacturer who also built transit buses. They also built double decker buses for SCRTD. Those double deckers were exported. They exported several coaches before building buses at the Lamar plant.


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## Caesar La Rock

I'm talking about before 2006. Neoplan USA produced several AN340/345s for private companies in Florida. I wouldn't consider them a bust, they did pretty well for a manufacturer who also built transit buses.

Customers included: Mears, SCRTD, Denver RTD, RTA, Grayline Tours, PAT, Kennedy Space Center, and many other operators. They exported several coaches before building buses at the Lamar plant.


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## rickycourtney

The Neoplan AN440 was fairly ubiquitous in Los Angeles for many years. At one point LA Metro operated close to 1200 units.

But that's typical of the Metro Bus system in LA. They like to buy one type of bus for as long as possible. The agency has bought NABI buses almost exclusively since 2000 (including 643 composite 45 foot buses that were custom designed for Metro). With the New Flyer buyout the agency seems to be transitioning to Xcelsiors.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.


----------



## railiner

Neoplan in the US had an interesting history. The first ones I saw, were some early model imported, double deck Skyliner sightsee'ers in Milwaukee in the late '60's.

When I lived in Colorado, in the '80's they gave the RTD a double deck, four axle, Megaliner to test on the Denver-Boulder run. Also saw those used by the SCRTD on their El Monte busway, and by TWA Services, on their Kennedy Space Center tours.

I remember well all the hoopla when Neoplan opened their new plant in Lamar, and the Denver RTD awarding them a huge contract to replace their AM General's and their MCI's.

Then in the '90's several New York area commuter and charter companies bought their futuristic looking coaches. Their model that impressed me most was the 'dual mode' articulated's they built for the MBTA Silver Line.

They now have faded away, and their current owner, MAN, doesn't seem interested in marketing in the USA any longer....


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.


Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.

We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.


I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.

The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

As for Neoplans, I rode on many Neoplans for Lynx. We had mostly AN435s, but we did have some AN440s and AN460s around (one of the 40 footers was originally suppose to go to SEPTA, originally going to be 8601). Those were built around 1984-1985, along with the first AN435s. The last Neoplans we bought were also AN435s in 1990-1991. Sorry if this went off topic.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

THE CJ said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.
> 
> The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.
Click to expand...

Do you see any Red Coach H3-45? I'm surprised there's still MC-9's and 102A3's down there. Here in Reno I see tons of Greyhound D4505's, there's also Megabus-All West TD925's, All West C2045's, CX45's, H3-40's, H3-45's, and D4505's. There's Amador 102D3's, 102DL3's, J4500's, and H3-45's. And there's various other 102D3's and H3-45's, a casino around here (I think Sands) keep driving around with a 102D3 and a H3-45 paired together.



THE CJ said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.
> 
> 
> 
> Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.
> 
> We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.
> 
> (video)
Click to expand...

Ugh, Cummins ISX, according to Altoona tests, they guzzle fuel compared to Detroit 60-T/P/R engines. The D4505 was tested and ended up using more fuel than the 102DL3, for god's sake! That's 12 years for a downgrade.


----------



## rickycourtney

So I ask you to hear me out and think my comments over before you flame away...

The more I think about it... the more I'm disturbed by what happened on that bus in Northern California that was hit by a FedEx truck.

No matter what your personal opinion of Setra is... the fact is that this was a brand new motorcoach just weeks off the assembly line. It conformed to all current safety standards.
It was being operated by Silverado Stages, a well respected operator with very good safety record.

The crash was so violent... that unfortunately fatalities were unavoidable.

But the truth is that the students onboard the bus said they:
A) Could not the door at the rear of the bus (the wheelchair loading door)
B) Had to punch out the glass to escape

At least one student died trying to help his classmates escape.

According to NTSB it appears that the wheelchair loading door was not designed to open from the inside (it's not legally required to) and that while every window was equipped with an emergency release, passengers may not have used them. Both in my opinion are tragic conclusions.

I'm shocked to hear that while wheelchair lift equipped buses are quickly becoming the norm in this country... these doors can't be used as an emergency exit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly challenging to come up with an emergency release handle that was tamper proof.

As a matter of fact, it's already been done. All school buses are required to have an emergency exit door and all newer versions are fitted with alarms that sound if they've been tampered with.

It would be nice if all existing wheelchair lift equipped motorcoaches were modified to have an emergency release handle... but I'd settle for making it a requirement for new motorcoaches.

As to the emergency escape window situation... it strikes me that I've only once been told how to properly told how to operate one. It was on a charter bus trip and I learned it watching a short welcome/safety video the driver played on the overhead monitors.

But the truth is that as most drivers depart a station they make an announcement... there is no reason why they shouldn't be required to include a safety component where they describe the proper operation of the emergency escapes windows and hatches.

Will everyone listen? No.

Will it be popular among drivers? No.

But if there's an accident... and just one person remembers what was said... it could help a lot of people quickly escape.

I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts...


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, CJ, you're from Florida? What Greyhound's do they have in Florida? As you may know, Reno has tons of D4505's.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really see a lot of Greyhound, though I do see various motorcoaches. The last Greyhound buses I saw were 102-DL3s, which was last year on I-4. They appeared to have been rehabbed.
> 
> The other motorcoaches I see from the tour companies include, 102-DL3s, X3-45, D4505s, J4500s, 96/102A3s, MC-9s, T-2145s, C2045s, T800/900s. I got a report that some Neoplan AN116/3 (cityliners) are running around as well as Ex-NJT Eagles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you see any Red Coach H3-45? I'm surprised there's still MC-9's and 102A3's down there. Here in Reno I see tons of Greyhound D4505's, there's also Megabus-All West TD925's, All West C2045's, CX45's, H3-40's, H3-45's, and D4505's. There's Amador 102D3's, 102DL3's, J4500's, and H3-45's. And there's various other 102D3's and H3-45's, a casino around here (I think Sands) keep driving around with a 102D3 and a H3-45 paired together.
> 
> 
> 
> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, the AN440 was very common in Philadelphia too, where I'm from. But that's a transit bus. As far as Neoplan intercity buses go, they pretty much failed in the US, just like New Flyer. Sure, Denver RTD and PAT use them, but compare that to the users of the X3-45, C2045, T2145, etc, which are not bestsellers either, and they don't even come close to the MCI D, J, or the Prevost H, which have always been near the top of the list.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those three are considered luxury coaches, though they can be used for transit. Same with Neoplan's motorcoaches. While not as successful as MCI or Prevost, Neoplan did a better job then New Flyer could, that's for sure.
> 
> We have C2045s running for an express route in Florida, though the buses are from Mears. They run on Lynx's Xpress 208. Currently, it's free until May 16th. The bus I was on is 4209, which uses what appears to be a Cummins ISX engine.
> 
> (video)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ugh, Cummins ISX, according to Altoona tests, they guzzle fuel compared to Detroit 60-T/P/R engines. The D4505 was tested and ended up using more fuel than the 102DL3, for god's sake! That's 12 years for a downgrade.
Click to expand...

MC-9s and 102A3s are like legends and built to last. Heck, Quality Coach still has MC-8s, MC-9s, 96A3s down here with 8V71Ns. They retrofitted them with wheelchair lifts. A 1978 MC-5C was recently sighted down here too. It's owned by a church. Red Coach does have those H3-45s and they are nice. I also see MegaBus' TD925s here too, at Lynx Central Station, where passengers can get on MegaBus.

You don't know what you will run into down here, since companies keep sticking with old buses. Some private companies around here still have GMC RTS buses. Some Orion Is and Orion VIs were spotted here and many Ex-Lynx buses, including Orion Vs are still running for these companies.

Metro Transportation just bought several Fairfax RTS buses that are now running around. Metro Transportation also has Ex-Lynx buses too and Flxibles from Palm Tran. The only companies I'm aware of that have newer buses is Disney Transport, Shades of Green, and Mears to name a few. Everyone else seems to love old buses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I agree that the wheelchair lift door should be openable in an accident. They could install a latch at the operaing end from the inside. This might not be hard with the siwinging doors, but it might prove to be a problem with the sliding doors on the newer buses. Another, simpler, way to solve the problem would be to just replace the windows on the lift doors, replace them with the same type of window as the regular passenger windows, so that the windows can be opened easily.

As for the windows, there's two main types in use. There's the old style with a big slanted bar at the bottom, you pull it up and throw it out, very easy to open. They have instructions etched into the slanted bar. This is what you see on the A3, DL3, and D4505, don't know which other buses have them.

The newer type just has a red handle on the side, so you have to reach up and it's presumably harder to open due to less leverage, but allows a slimmer windowline for the bus. These have intructions posted by the red handle on a piece of paper glued onto the window. If that paper falls off, you're screwed and tampering is easier with this type. Presumably the Setra had these, I know the G4500 does.

Like CJ said, the MC-8, MC-9, 102A3, and 102DL3 were great buses. Now the designs have all gotten screwed over and bus safety has dropped. Heck, even fuel efficiency peaked with the 102DL3, then dropped, except for the X3-45 which is the only bus in production that can rival good old DL3 effiicency.

So what I mean is that people need to go back to basics instead of messing around and causing more problems.


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> So I ask you to hear me out and think my comments over before you flame away...
> 
> The more I think about it... the more I'm disturbed by what happened on that bus in Northern California that was hit by a FedEx truck.
> 
> No matter what your personal opinion of Setra is... the fact is that this was a brand new motorcoach just weeks off the assembly line. It conformed to all current safety standards.
> 
> It was being operated by Silverado Stages, a well respected operator with very good safety record.
> 
> The crash was so violent... that unfortunately fatalities were unavoidable.
> 
> But the truth is that the students onboard the bus said they:
> 
> A) Could not the door at the rear of the bus (the wheelchair loading door)
> 
> B) Had to punch out the glass to escape
> 
> At least one student died trying to help his classmates escape.
> 
> According to NTSB it appears that the wheelchair loading door was not designed to open from the inside (it's not legally required to) and that while every window was equipped with an emergency release, passengers may not have used them. Both in my opinion are tragic conclusions.
> 
> I'm shocked to hear that while wheelchair lift equipped buses are quickly becoming the norm in this country... these doors can't be used as an emergency exit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly challenging to come up with an emergency release handle that was tamper proof.
> 
> As a matter of fact, it's already been done. All school buses are required to have an emergency exit door and all newer versions are fitted with alarms that sound if they've been tampered with.
> 
> It would be nice if all existing wheelchair lift equipped motorcoaches were modified to have an emergency release handle... but I'd settle for making it a requirement for new motorcoaches.
> 
> As to the emergency escape window situation... it strikes me that I've only once been told how to properly told how to operate one. It was on a charter bus trip and I learned it watching a short welcome/safety video the driver played on the overhead monitors.
> 
> But the truth is that as most drivers depart a station they make an announcement... there is no reason why they shouldn't be required to include a safety component where they describe the proper operation of the emergency escapes windows and hatches.
> 
> Will everyone listen? No.
> 
> Will it be popular among drivers? No.
> 
> But if there's an accident... and just one person remembers what was said... it could help a lot of people quickly escape.
> 
> I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts...


You have made some valid observations. They could indeed design the wheelchair door to also operate as an emergency door. In fact, they already are fitted with sensors that will send a visible and audible alarm to the driver, if they are not fully secured. As a matter of fact, the parking brake won't even release in that case. I don't know why they are not designed to be used as an emergency escape, but have an inkling that perhaps, and I may be totally wrong, but that they manufacturer's are worried about possible legal action in the event some child or schizophrenic person tries to open them on the move, and falls out.

As you may know, all buses used to have emergency doors years ago, but when the large pushout escape windows became prevalent, the federal regulator's deemed them sufficient, and removed the requirement for emergency doors. The State of New Jersey still required them for a few years longer, and all NJ registered buses had them...even the GMC PD-4106's registered in that state alone. Later, NJ relented, and dropped the requirement. Since that time, rear escape windows in some cases, and one or two roof hatches have added to emergency escape opportunities.

As for driver announcements, for the last couple of years, my company's driver's have been instructed to mention the various means of emergency escape in their announcements, mentioning how to open the front door, the window and the roof hatches, also the location of fire extinguisher's, etc.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, I found the Setra interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/6292964228/. That's the bus involved in the crash, and as you can see, it has the stupid red handle with the instructions sticker instead of the slanted bar. I also found out that both the Prevost X3-45 and H3-41/45 have a curved window bar, not a red handle.

Setra, Van Hool, Alexander Dennies, and Dina vehicles have the red handle, while MCI and Prevost vehicles have the slanted or curved bars.

Here you can fine more bus interiors: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/sets/72157628011613156/with/6292964228/

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/interior/

If you will excuse me for a second, but since it's obvious that the bar is better than the handle for leverage and prevention of tampering, then Up with MCI, Up with Prevost, Down with Setra, Down with Van Hool, Down with Alexander Dennis, and Down with Dina! Safety first!


----------



## rickycourtney

It appears that the Setra S 407 has the type with the red handle on one side of the window, midway up.

I've seen both that type and the type that is a bar that swings up from the bottom of the window.

Sorry to correct you John but I think that Van Hool has also (at some point) used the bar type as well. I will say that the bar type seems to be more prone to tampering (I've sat on a bus where the window "whistled" because the emergency latch wasn't fully seated.)

I really don't know if one type is necessarily better than the other and I really don't see the point of getting into a pissing match about who makes the better bus (especially in a topic involving fatalities.) Both types of emergency exit windows must have been cleared by the US regulators as being sufficient.

Bottom line... no matter which system is in use the passengers need to know how to use it.


railiner- I'm glad to hear your company requires that your drivers make the safety spiel... on the whole your company seems to be doing things the right way. But taking an industrywide view, it's totally inconsistent. I've been on buses where the driver mentions the safety features, but more often than not, they say nothing about them. The only way for it to become consistent is to make the safety spiel a legal requirement.


----------



## railiner

Hey, Swadian! I loved those shots of that ol' Flxiliner in the montage...... 

I used to ride them on the old Continental Air Transport between O'Hare and The Loop in the late '60's......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> It appears that the Setra S 407 has the type with the red handle on one side of the window, midway up.
> 
> I've seen both that type and the type that is a bar that swings up from the bottom of the window.
> 
> Sorry to correct you John but I think that Van Hool has also (at some point) used the bar type as well. I will say that the bar type seems to be more prone to tampering (I've sat on a bus where the window "whistled" because the emergency latch wasn't fully seated.)
> 
> I really don't know if one type is necessarily better than the other and I really don't see the point of getting into a pissing match about who makes the better bus (especially in a topic involving fatalities.) Both types of emergency exit windows must have been cleared by the US regulators as being sufficient.
> 
> Bottom line... no matter which system is in use the passengers need to know how to use it.
> 
> .....


That whistling was probably due to the long opening along the bottom with the bar type. The long opening just makes it easier to open in the case of an emergency. Do you really think a red handle a foot above your head with a sticker besides it is better than a bar right by your armrest with intructions etched onto it?

Also, it's impossible to ignore the escape instructions when you're sitting in the window seat on a bus with the bar. It's right there besides you, everybody who's ridden a MCI or Prevost window seat would know how to open it. You can't miss big capitial letter right by your armrest. You can much more easily miss the intructions sticker a foot above your head.

Even more, in an emergency, passengers may be too panicked to look up and reach up and read the intructions sticker. They need to know it throughout the trip and they need to instantly reach the window escape win an emergency. That cannot be done without a window bar.



railiner said:


> Hey, Swadian! I loved those shots of that ol' Flxiliner in the montage......
> 
> I used to ride them on the old Continental Air Transport between O'Hare and The Loop in the late '60's......


I didn't even get to notice those buses, but I think you will find these interesting: https://www.flickr.com/search/[email protected]&q=Continental%20Air%20Transport.


----------



## railiner

Thanks for that link!

Continental Air Transport evolved from the old Frank Parmalee Transfer Company, that began operations way back in 1853! They started out shuttling passengers between the various railroad terminals in Chicago in their horse carriages. They had an exclusive franchise from the city to provide that service until the mid '50's, when the service was taken over by another Chicago institution--Keeshin, dba 'Railroad Transfer Service. Passengers booking thru tickets were provided a coupon for the transfer between stations.

Parmalee reinvented itself at that time into C.A.T., running Flxibles between O'Hare and Midway to major Loop hotels, such as the Palmer House. They were loyal to Flxible until Flxible no longer built highway coaches, at which time C.A.T. went to the MC-5B. The company now is branded as Go Airport Express, part of a nationwide franchise, utilizing mainly van's, similar to Super Shuttle....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner, what do you think about the huge efficiency drop from the 102DL3 to the D4505? Why does a newer bus use much more fuel to carry the same load?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Railiner, what do you think about the huge efficiency drop from the 102DL3 to the D4505? Why does a newer bus use much more fuel to carry the same load?


Go back and look at the tests again. I think the FTA made Altoona change the way the tests were done in 2010... so you may be comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That whistling was probably due to the long opening along the bottom with the bar type. The long opening just makes it easier to open in the case of an emergency. Do you really think a red handle a foot above your head with a sticker besides it is better than a bar right by your armrest with intructions etched onto it?
> 
> Also, it's impossible to ignore the escape instructions when you're sitting in the window seat on a bus with the bar. It's right there besides you, everybody who's ridden a MCI or Prevost window seat would know how to open it. You can't miss big capitial letter right by your armrest. You can much more easily miss the intructions sticker a foot above your head.
> 
> Even more, in an emergency, passengers may be too panicked to look up and reach up and read the intructions sticker. They need to know it throughout the trip and they need to instantly reach the window escape win an emergency. That cannot be done without a window bar.


Again, both types of emergency exit windows must have been cleared by the US regulators as being sufficient... if the red handle type is truly as deficient as you say it is... why would they allow it?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railiner, what do you think about the huge efficiency drop from the 102DL3 to the D4505? Why does a newer bus use much more fuel to carry the same load?
> 
> 
> 
> Go back and look at the tests again. I think the FTA made Altoona change the way the tests were done in 2010... so you may be comparing apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

Not exactly sure what was changed, what did you find?



rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That whistling was probably due to the long opening along the bottom with the bar type. The long opening just makes it easier to open in the case of an emergency. Do you really think a red handle a foot above your head with a sticker besides it is better than a bar right by your armrest with intructions etched onto it?
> 
> Also, it's impossible to ignore the escape instructions when you're sitting in the window seat on a bus with the bar. It's right there besides you, everybody who's ridden a MCI or Prevost window seat would know how to open it. You can't miss big capitial letter right by your armrest. You can much more easily miss the intructions sticker a foot above your head.
> 
> Even more, in an emergency, passengers may be too panicked to look up and reach up and read the intructions sticker. They need to know it throughout the trip and they need to instantly reach the window escape win an emergency. That cannot be done without a window bar.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, both types of emergency exit windows must have been cleared by the US regulators as being sufficient... if the red handle type is truly as deficient as you say it is... why would they allow it?
Click to expand...

It's not deficient, it just requires more attention. Just like how a Van Hool or Setra is fine if you are not putting in too many miles. But they need more attention, otherwise you get the cracks that shut down all those minor Van Hool operators.


----------



## rickycourtney

The D4505 test has a disclaimer:

"Effective January 1, 2010 the Federal Transit Administration determined that the total number of simulated passengers used for loading all test vehicles will be based on the full complement of seats and free-floor space available for standing passengers (150 lbs per passenger)."

Not sure if this new rule applies to fuel economy testing too.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> The D4505 test has a disclaimer:
> 
> "Effective January 1, 2010 the Federal Transit Administration determined that the total number of simulated passengers used for loading all test vehicles will be based on the full complement of seats and free-floor space available for standing passengers (150 lbs per passenger)."
> 
> Not sure if this new rule applies to fuel economy testing too.


So you mean the D4500 was tested empty?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> The D4505 test has a disclaimer:
> 
> "Effective January 1, 2010 the Federal Transit Administration determined that the total number of simulated passengers used for loading all test vehicles will be based on the full complement of seats and free-floor space available for standing passengers (150 lbs per passenger)."
> 
> Not sure if this new rule applies to fuel economy testing too.
> 
> 
> 
> So you mean the D4500 was tested empty?
Click to expand...

No. The older buses were tested with the equivalent weight of a 150 person in each seat including the driver.Newer buses are tested with the equivalent weight of a 150 person in each seat including the driver *plus* 150 pound people standing in all free floor space. (In the case of the D4505 a driver, 55 seated passengers and 28 standing passengers.)

But upon further inspection I'm not sure that having standing passengers is a requirement for the fuel economy tests.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Railiner, what do you think about the huge efficiency drop from the 102DL3 to the D4505? Why does a newer bus use much more fuel to carry the same load?


I took another look at that site, and could not find a test for a 102DL-3.....only 102D-3's....a CNG and a diesel version....

anyhow....If you are comparing that to the later model, I don't know the answer...

As I've mentioned, two buses that are otherwise identical, can sometimes perform differently.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> The D4505 test has a disclaimer:
> 
> "Effective January 1, 2010 the Federal Transit Administration determined that the total number of simulated passengers used for loading all test vehicles will be based on the full complement of seats and free-floor space available for standing passengers (150 lbs per passenger)."
> 
> Not sure if this new rule applies to fuel economy testing too.
> 
> 
> 
> So you mean the D4500 was tested empty?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. The older buses were tested with the equivalent weight of a 150 person in each seat including the driver.Newer buses are tested with the equivalent weight of a 150 person in each seat including the driver *plus* 150 pound people standing in all free floor space. (In the case of the D4505 a driver, 55 seated passengers and 28 standing passengers.)
> 
> But upon further inspection I'm not sure that having standing passengers is a requirement for the fuel economy tests.
Click to expand...

That's what I mean, I've never seen a D or any other intercity bus with 28 standees in them!



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Railiner, what do you think about the huge efficiency drop from the 102DL3 to the D4505? Why does a newer bus use much more fuel to carry the same load?
> 
> 
> 
> I took another look at that site, and could not find a test for a 102DL-3.....only 102D-3's....a CNG and a diesel version....
> 
> anyhow....If you are comparing that to the later model, I don't know the answer...
> 
> As I've mentioned, two buses that are otherwise identical, can sometimes perform differently.
Click to expand...

Well, I mean the 2002 D4500, which is a rename of the 102DL3 and basically the exact same thing. It has the same VIN series except for the serial number. Since Greyhound mostly operates 102DL3's, I was just thinking that Greyhound might be doing worse with the D4505 than the 102DL3, thus suggesting that Greyhound order more D4500's instead of D4505's.

But that huge efficiency drop seems weird regardless of maintainenece, etc, especially since both were nearly new when tested, on the same track.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's what I mean, I've never seen a D or any other intercity bus with 28 standees in them!


That's because the motorcoaches you ride on are in intercity service.Remember, these tests are done primarily to benefit transit agencies. They may allow standing passengers to ride on a commuter express service... therefore it makes since to do the tests with standing passengers.

That being said... I think that most agencies would discourage standing passengers on a D4500 because you often operate them on routes for very long stretches with high speeds and no stops.

I've stood on Sound Transit's 550 from Seattle to Mercer Island at 60 mph on I-90... you get tossed around pretty good at those speeds even on a brand new bus. It's not a pleasant 7 minute trip... I couldn't imagine standing for 45 minutes on a trip between Seattle and Olympia.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I mean, I've never seen a D or any other intercity bus with 28 standees in them!
> 
> 
> 
> That's because the motorcoaches you ride on are in intercity service.Remember, these tests are done primarily to benefit transit agencies. They may allow standing passengers to ride on a commuter express service... therefore it makes since to do the tests with standing passengers.
> 
> That being said... I think that most agencies would discourage standing passengers on a D4500 because you often operate them on routes for very long stretches with high speeds and no stops.
> 
> I've stood on Sound Transit's 550 from Seattle to Mercer Island at 60 mph on I-90... you get tossed around pretty good at those speeds even on a brand new bus. It's not a pleasant 7 minute trip... I couldn't imagine standing for 45 minutes on a trip between Seattle and Olympia.
Click to expand...

But OTOH, even Sound Transit 550 doesn't use a D4500, it uses New Flyer LF Suburbans, which are significantly less stable than a D4500. Stabilty is not a problem at all for a D4500, especially at 75 mph, the D4500 feels stable the faster it goes.

The problem is, D4500's don't have transit handholds. Some of them have handles on the aisle seats, but it's nowhere near what can be put on a New Flyer Suburban. Which again backs the point that I have never seen a D4500 with standees. Even the Express Buses in New York often don't break 40 pax.


----------



## railiner

Saw a rare visitor yesterday.....Greyhound Canada 1079, an MCI 102-EL3 "Renaissance" was parked at Academy's lot in Hoboken, NJ.

I don't know if it was laying over on a GLC charter, or happenned to 'sneak in' mistakenly on a line run....

Here's a link to a photo of it at another time....http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=File:Greyhound_Canada_1079-a.jpg


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But OTOH, even Sound Transit 550 doesn't use a D4500, it uses New Flyer LF Suburbans, which are significantly less stable than a D4500. Stabilty is not a problem at all for a D4500, especially at 75 mph, the D4500 feels stable the faster it goes.
> 
> The problem is, D4500's don't have transit handholds. Some of them have handles on the aisle seats, but it's nowhere near what can be put on a New Flyer Suburban. Which again backs the point that I have never seen a D4500 with standees. Even the Express Buses in New York often don't break 40 pax.


Sound Transit has most of the metal grab bars on the New Flyer DE60LF buses removed and replaced with overhead luggage racks... Which you can hold on to... They just aren't as easy as a grab bar.
MCI also has handholds built into the luggage racks so people traveling to the rear of the coach to use the lav can stabilize themselves... Those could be used by an unlucky standing passenger.

I would say the DE60LF doesn't feel *that* much more unstable at speed than a D4505. But no bus is totally stable at those speeds. My best example is if you've tried to stand and use the lav while at speed on a D4505. The bus has a nice ride... but it moves around. That's not fun on your legs if you need to stand for anything more than a few minutes.

But in terms of stability... the long wheelbase on the X3-45 really made for a nice ride.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Saw a rare visitor yesterday.....Greyhound Canada 1079, an MCI 102-EL3 "Renaissance" was parked at Academy's lot in Hoboken, NJ.
> 
> I don't know if it was laying over on a GLC charter, or happenned to 'sneak in' mistakenly on a line run....
> 
> Here's a link to a photo of it at another time....http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=File:Greyhound_Canada_1079-a.jpg


Doesn't have a wheelchair lift. Must be a charter. Not sureprised since it's a 102EL3. Greyhound Canada sources say they are retiring soon, along with the H3-45's and heavily-damaged D3's and DL3's. Some GLC DL3's are so damaged that a rebuild is hopeless.



rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> But OTOH, even Sound Transit 550 doesn't use a D4500, it uses New Flyer LF Suburbans, which are significantly less stable than a D4500. Stabilty is not a problem at all for a D4500, especially at 75 mph, the D4500 feels stable the faster it goes.
> 
> The problem is, D4500's don't have transit handholds. Some of them have handles on the aisle seats, but it's nowhere near what can be put on a New Flyer Suburban. Which again backs the point that I have never seen a D4500 with standees. Even the Express Buses in New York often don't break 40 pax.
> 
> 
> 
> Sound Transit has most of the metal grab bars on the New Flyer DE60LF buses removed and replaced with overhead luggage racks... Which you can hold on to... They just aren't as easy as a grab bar.
> MCI also has handholds built into the luggage racks so people traveling to the rear of the coach to use the lav can stabilize themselves... Those could be used by an unlucky standing passenger.
> 
> I would say the DE60LF doesn't feel *that* much more unstable at speed than a D4505. But no bus is totally stable at those speeds. My best example is if you've tried to stand and use the lav while at speed on a D4505. The bus has a nice ride... but it moves around. That's not fun on your legs if you need to stand for anything more than a few minutes.
> 
> But in terms of stability... the long wheelbase on the X3-45 really made for a nice ride.
Click to expand...

Of course the D4505 isn't very stable, it tilts a lot more than the 102DL3 because it has modified air bellows. The DL3 is very smooth. The New Flyer DE60LF? No match. The D4505 is just not that great of a bus, but the Greyhound D4505 is a bit better because Greyhound has different specs that the Amtrak contracted D4505's. Pretty much no Ambus can match a Greyhound, with the exception of the G4500.

The DL3 has to move fast to remain stable, I believe it has to do with the air bellows and the trusses. They must drive fast to "glide" over bumps.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Of course the D4505 isn't very stable, it tilts a lot more than the 102DL3 because it has modified air bellows. The DL3 is very smooth. The New Flyer DE60LF? No match. The D4505 is just not that great of a bus, but the Greyhound D4505 is a bit better because Greyhound has different specs that the Amtrak contracted D4505's. Pretty much no Ambus can match a Greyhound, with the exception of the G4500.
> 
> The DL3 has to move fast to remain stable, I believe it has to do with the air bellows and the trusses. They must drive fast to "glide" over bumps.


I hate to break it to you... but I highly doubt that Greyhound is getting some super special version of the D4505. It's probably very similar to the off-the-shelf D4505 units that are purchased by Amtrak California's contractors. If you have proof to the contrary... I'd love to see it.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the D4505 isn't very stable, it tilts a lot more than the 102DL3 because it has modified air bellows. The DL3 is very smooth. The New Flyer DE60LF? No match. The D4505 is just not that great of a bus, but the Greyhound D4505 is a bit better because Greyhound has different specs that the Amtrak contracted D4505's. Pretty much no Ambus can match a Greyhound, with the exception of the G4500.
> 
> The DL3 has to move fast to remain stable, I believe it has to do with the air bellows and the trusses. They must drive fast to "glide" over bumps.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to break it to you... but I highly doubt that Greyhound is getting some super special version of the D4505. It's probably very similar to the off-the-shelf D4505 units that are purchased by Amtrak California's contractors. If you have proof to the contrary... I'd love to see it.
Click to expand...

It's special, but not super-special. It just has some different specs. See this: http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2010/04/mci-wins-70-d4505-greyhound-order.aspx.

As you can see, they have extra driver features, and they also have different transmission programming I believe. Pretty much every Greyhound bus has special transmission programming, the transmission is electronically controlled, so different programming means different performance at various speeds.

I'm sure you can also modify stability by changing the PSI in the tires and the air bellows.

But the truth is, the D4505 is pretty much worse than the 102DL3.


----------



## rickycourtney

So Greyhound has opted for some of MCI's added cost options that are available to all? Most of the changes are to the drivers seat and interior wiring. That doesn't exactly count as "different specs."

Most electronic transmission computers are programmable... and are programmed on the type of vehicle and type of service they'll be used for. They can also have special modes like "power" and "eco" ... hell Seattle's hybrid buses have a "hush" mode that allows them to run in an all-electric mode. It's all controlled by the transmission computer.


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## railiner

I have to agree with rickycourtney on the ride of the long-wheelbase X-3's.....probably the best riding coach on the road today. As for a ride getting better at higher speeds.....well that one puzzles me, Swadian....hitting road deformities at higher speeds surely makes for a more severe jolt than easing over them. The only thing that speed might improve, would be on a highly banked curve, where going too slow would cause passenger's to feel the 'lean'. It may be possible that a bus could feel a 'harmonic' motion at a certain speed, that would be eliminated by either slowing down or speeding up, in some cases, however...

I have to agree with Swadian, that the D4505's are a disappointment....we have three state-financed ones in our fleet, that are very trouble-prone. Bad enough to discourage our owner from buying anything from MCI for now.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I guess I'll have to admit the D4505 is worse than the X3-45 and much worse than the 102DL3. This has been further backed up by a GTE message saying "The current MCI D's are nowhere near as good as they were 15 years ago."

On another note, Melvin has photographed G4500's out in force at Chicago. One of them included the terrible #7104, which reeked of burning plastic. Hopefully the new electrical system in the rebuild has fixed this problem. If you were an Average Joe on the street and saw this coming at you: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/14002611540/sizes/l/in/photostream/, you'd think it was a brand new bus.


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## railiner

It is my opinion, that MCI, is not the company that it used to be. Back in its glory years, when its "Challenger's" 'knocked-out' the former champion, General Motors from the intercity bus manufacturing business (although the US government had a hand in that, too.....a long story); when they had most of the market, they started to decline when the former Greyhound Corporation divested the bus line. And then it really started to skid a short time later, when it too was sold to a series of different owners.

I believe that when Greyhound Lines parent corporation, owned MCI, the engineers at the bus line insisted on a good product, that did in fact improve with each new model.

But when they were separated, the new owner's of MCI, instead of investing in improving the product, their emphasis may have shifted into finding improved ways of building them with the view of reducing production costs, and consequently improving profitability. That was okay for a while, but then rival companies started building more competitive products, and MCI's dominance started to wain. They did go thru a bankruptcy, and perhaps realized the error of their ways, and seem to be trying to turn things around, but again IMHO, they have a long way to go. I wish them well, and do hope they eventually come back with better products....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I know the problems with MCI management these days, but my biggest question is: What problems are exactly causing the "trouble" experience by D4505 operators? Unreliability? Slow speed? Fuel guzzling? Too much tilt on turns?

I think the 102DL3 was pretty much the last good design MCI made (which improved over the 102C3) before the E4500 came out and everything got messed up. Or you could say the 102D3, since that came two years after the 102DL3, but it's basically just a shortened version.


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## railiner

I recently perused this interesting site, showing an expanded history of Greyhound, which is celebrating their centennial this year...

http://greyhoundhistory.com/

Only problem was the top of the screen was blocked by a banner telling me (erroneously), that my browser needed to be updated to view the site...

I could still see the majority of it....


----------



## rickycourtney

Just for fun I've been tracking the Greyhound buses I've seen around Seattle for the last few weeks... here are my notes:

6666 White H3-45, only a Greyhound logo on the nose, nothing on the sides

6668 White H3-45, only a Greyhound logo on the nose, nothing on the sides

7028 Blue G4500

7146 Blue G4500

7151 Blue G4500 (spotted this bus 3 times)

7193 Blue G4500

7203 Blue G4500

7246 White G4500, faded decals (spotted this bus 2 times)

7256 White G4500, very faded decals, luggage door was replaced with a plain white door (saw a picture of this bus on GTE in Chicago)

7262 White G4500, faded decals

7263 White G4500, faded decals

7265 Blue G4500

7273 Blue G4500


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I recently perused this interesting site, showing an expanded history of Greyhound, which is celebrating their centennial this year...
> 
> http://greyhoundhistory.com/
> 
> Only problem was the top of the screen was blocked by a banner telling me (erroneously), that my browser needed to be updated to view the site...
> 
> I could still see the majority of it....


It totally doesn't work for me. That sucks.



rickycourtney said:


> Just for fun I've been tracking the Greyhound buses I've seen around Seattle for the last few weeks... here are my notes:
> 
> 6666 White H3-45, only a Greyhound logo on the nose, nothing on the sides
> 
> 6668 White H3-45, only a Greyhound logo on the nose, nothing on the sides
> 
> 7028 Blue G4500
> 
> 7146 Blue G4500
> 
> 7151 Blue G4500 (spotted this bus 3 times)
> 
> 7193 Blue G4500
> 
> 7203 Blue G4500
> 
> 7246 White G4500, faded decals (spotted this bus 2 times)
> 
> 7256 White G4500, very faded decals, luggage door was replaced with a plain white door (saw a picture of this bus on GTE in Chicago)
> 
> 7262 White G4500, faded decals
> 
> 7263 White G4500, faded decals
> 
> 7265 Blue G4500
> 
> 7273 Blue G4500


You saw 7273? I guess they got that thing from Chicago to Seattle somehow, even though Greyhound has no service west of Chicago. I guess it drove south to Saint Louis, took over a New York-Denver sked, then went to Denver, then to Portland, then to Seattle. These G4500's are getting rebuilt very fast, lots of blue ones up and running!

I've actually been keeping track of all the G4500's I could get info on. Current spotted G4500 rebuilds:

[SIZE=12pt]6998 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]7027 7028 7043 7072 7075 7091 7094 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]7104 7125 7137 7146 7151 7155 7159 7193 7202 7203 7265 7273 30515[/SIZE]


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## rickycourtney

Glad my list was interesting to you... but my spottings are going to all but disappear in the next 2 days.

Right now it's easy for me to see the buses from my apartment and on my way to work as they travel from the depot in West Seattle to the old station in Downtown... but when the station moves to Sodo on Wednesday I'll rarely see Greyhound buses unless I happen to be taking Link and have time to jump off for a few minutes.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's OK, since the G4500's will pretty much be all rebuilt shortly. Look at your own list, in seven months Greyhound has pretty much rebuilt 75% of the G4500's already. This is backed up by Melvin's spotting from Chicago, every G4500 he has spotted in May has been rebuilt.

Looks like the G4500 rebuild rate is about 1 a day, same as the DL3, but I don't know if that means a good enough job on those things.

Edit: The latest report on GTE is copied below:

"NAPPANEE — One-hundred sixty jobs will be lost when a contract for ABC Companies ends in September. But some of the ABC employees may be able to move to new operations building double-decker buses or small and mid-sized shuttle and specialty buses. ABC announced Monday it will close its factory at 504 S. Oakland Ave, building 12, by Sept. 15. The company leases the facility from Fleetwood. The workers there have been refurbishing high-mileage interstate buses for Greyhound since 2010. The new double-decker bus contract will be fulfilled in a different, nearby factory. According to Jon Savitz, senior vice president of business development for ABC, the new contract will require about 60 workers initially. That contract is with Alexander Dennis of Edinburgh, Scotland. “This was a project to refurbish Greyhound buses that were a certain age and vintage and we have run through the entire population of those buses,” Savitz said. ABC will now begin ramping up operations for the Alexander Dennis contract this fall."


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's OK, since the G4500's will pretty much be all rebuilt shortly. Look at your own list, in seven months Greyhound has pretty much rebuilt 75% of the G4500's already. This is backed up by Melvin's spotting from Chicago, every G4500 he has spotted in May has been rebuilt.
> 
> Looks like the G4500 rebuild rate is about 1 a day, same as the DL3, but I don't know if that means a good enough job on those things."


Well that's 75% of the units I've seen... That doesn't exactly mean that Greyhound has refurbished 75% of the G4500's on their roster.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Edit: The latest report on GTE is copied below:
> 
> "NAPPANEE — One-hundred sixty jobs will be lost when a contract for ABC Companies ends in September. But some of the ABC employees may be able to move to new operations building double-decker buses or small and mid-sized shuttle and specialty buses. ABC announced Monday it will close its factory at 504 S. Oakland Ave, building 12, by Sept. 15. The company leases the facility from Fleetwood. The workers there have been refurbishing high-mileage interstate buses for Greyhound since 2010. The new double-decker bus contract will be fulfilled in a different, nearby factory. According to Jon Savitz, senior vice president of business development for ABC, the new contract will require about 60 workers initially. That contract is with Alexander Dennis of Edinburgh, Scotland. “This was a project to refurbish Greyhound buses that were a certain age and vintage and we have run through the entire population of those buses,” Savitz said. ABC will now begin ramping up operations for the Alexander Dennis contract this fall."


Did anyone ever confirm that ABC was doing the refurbishments of the G4500? Last we discussed it was still up in the air if the G4500 were getting a total rebuild with new engines or simply getting a fresh coat of paint, new seat covers and WiFi. I'm still inclined to believe they aren't getting a total rebuild.

Either way with this factory closing it means the 102DL3 mid-life rebuild project is over. Any units that remain unbuilt are likely going to be sold and replaced by coaches or confined to charters & tours service.


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## railiner

One reason that Greyhound is rather weak in the charter market, (besides their proper emphasis on their line runs), may be that they use their oldest equipment on charter's, in contrast to most charter companies that put their newest and best equipment on charter's.

From what I can observe in my area, Greyhound's charter's usually are providing multiple buses for convention shuttles, where the age, and the amenities of their buses is not all that important.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Apparently a few of the DL3's were rejected for a rebuild, and these are the ones still in white. Mainly Greyhound Canada DL3's that took heavy damage in the North. The rejects will be confined to charters. Since the shop closes in September, I think they will still get a few more batches out before DL3 rebuilds are done. I'm thinking three more batches?

As For G4500 rebuilds, it appears that they are indeed getting a reduced rebuild in Greyhound's own shops at Richmond. I'm sure many G4500's were rejected, surprised #7104 wasn't. The Canadian G4500's were probably actually in worse shape than the US ones, despite exterior appearance, so they are getting scrapped.

Greyhound Canada will retire their older DL3's due to massive damage and deffered maintainence, I assume GLC did not improve maintainence until their driver strike in 2011.

I'm thinking Greyhound will eventually come out with something like this rebuilt:

95% of US DL3's

100% of US D4500's

50% of US G4500's

20% of Canada DL3's

?% of Canada D4500's

0% of Canada G4500's

I heard that Greyhound Canada had suspended D4500 rebuilds, but then I saw this: http://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/1/1a/Greyhound_Canada_1153-a.jpg. That's really weird, looks like #1153 was rebuilt to US specs, without the trailer hitch and the Canadian bumper was replaced with a US bumper. So maybe a few more Canadian D4500's will be rebuilt, seeing they are newer than the DL3's but otherwise identical.

#1153 before rebuild: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1153-2.jpg. Wasn't that damaged I guess. I'm thinking #'s 1158, 1179, and 1181 are also good enough to be rebuilt.


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## rickycourtney

On Greyhound's website they say that there are 769 102DL3 (D4500) coaches in the fleet with "nearly 75% equipped with wheel-chair lifts."

That page is simply talking about the US fleet.

It was my understanding that during the rebuild the 102DL3 coaches were getting wheel-chair lift equipped. I'm guessing that of the 190 or so un-rebuilt coaches, Greyhound will save the best of the best for charters & tours service or company service and the rest will probably be sold (or they may be in such bad shape they get scrapped.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> On Greyhound's website they say that there are 769 102DL3 (D4500) coaches in the fleet with "nearly 75% equipped with wheel-chair lifts."
> 
> That page is simply talking about the US fleet.
> 
> It was my understanding that during the rebuild the 102DL3 coaches were getting wheel-chair lift equipped. I'm guessing that of the 190 or so un-rebuilt coaches, Greyhound will save the best of the best for charters & tours service or company service and the rest will probably be sold (or they may be in such bad shape they get scrapped.)


Remember that rebuilds are still ongoing. So I think about half of those 190 will be rebuilt and the rest were probably rejected. Greyhound used to have 911 DL3's in the US (2011), but 140 were transferred to Canada, apparently 2 of them wrecked, to leave 769.


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## Swadian Hardcore

There's something very weird going on with Greyhound's booking system. They are showing huge schedule reshuffling in the second half of June. It appears that Greyhound is explosively expanding LD routes, adding frequencies and huge amounts of through services. But none of this has been reflected in the System Timetable. Apparently Greyhound is not done writing the June 2014 timetable yet.

Basically, Greyhound is offering bookings for Los Angeles-Vancouver, Los Angeles-New York, Los Angele-Chicago, and other through runs that haven't operated for years. This is a radical departure from Greyhound's strategy over the past decade. But I don't know if it's true, because the System Timetable is not updated yet.

Ricky, with regards to Seattle, this may be a sign that Greyhound is closing their Seattle garage, since the offerings of Los Angeles-Vancouver would replace most Seattle-Portland and Seattle-Vancouver schedules.

Railiner, could you please check in New York to see if Greyhound is going to offer a New York-Los Angeles through run? Also, this would replace the New York-Denver, Denver-Las Vegas, Saint Louis-Phoenix, and some Las Vegas-Los Angeles schedules. It's truly a massive reshuffling, if it's true.

Try mock bookings for anytime after June 2014, you'll see what I'm talking about. Again, this could be a computer glitch due to the new booking system, hacking, or even a practical joke. It's not posted on the System Timetable, and there are no Schedule Bullitins or anything on GTE about it.


----------



## railiner

I am not at all familiar with the TRIPS booking system, but can't one book a ticket to anywhere on Greyhound, regardless of a thru bus, or having to make a couple of transfers?

I'll see what I can find out here, but likely, no one here will know, either, until the new TT is published....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ricky, with regards to Seattle, this may be a sign that Greyhound is closing their Seattle garage, since the offerings of Los Angeles-Vancouver would replace most Seattle-Portland and Seattle-Vancouver schedules.


Like you said in an earlier post... Greyhound doesn't operate much of a Garage in Seattle. It's mostly used for cleaning and storage. They will still need a facility of some sort for the Seattle-Stanfield/Missoula route.

But I just did a test booking and your right... you can go from Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles without any transfers. The longest stops are in Seattle (50 min), Portland (60 min) and Sacramento (75 min). The whole trip takes 31 hours bumper to bumper.

To make that possible they must've installed a fueling system at the new station in Seattle.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ricky, with regards to Seattle, this may be a sign that Greyhound is closing their Seattle garage, since the offerings of Los Angeles-Vancouver would replace most Seattle-Portland and Seattle-Vancouver schedules.
> 
> 
> 
> Like you said in an earlier post... Greyhound doesn't operate much of a Garage in Seattle. It's mostly used for cleaning and storage. They will still need a facility of some sort for the Seattle-Stanfield/Missoula route.
> 
> But I just did a test booking and your right... you can go from Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles without any transfers. The longest stops are in Seattle (50 min), Portland (60 min) and Sacramento (75 min). The whole trip takes 31 hours bumper to bumper.
> 
> To make that possible they must've installed a fueling system at the new station in Seattle.
Click to expand...

No, they can just refuel the bus in Portland and Sacramento. Any of Greyhound's buses can easily make 600 miles without refueling. Also, you've never taken Greyhound LD's, but they actually empty the trash cans at every major station and the station janitor cleans the bus restroom. So LD buses are usually cleaner than SD buses. You don't need a facility to clean the restroom and empty the trach cans, the station is enough.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I am not at all familiar with the TRIPS booking system, but can't one book a ticket to anywhere on Greyhound, regardless of a thru bus, or having to make a couple of transfers?
> 
> I'll see what I can find out here, but likely, no one here will know, either, until the new TT is published....


You just have to try a mock booking from New York to Los Angeles. Apprently the route starts on June 27th, 2014. You'll quickly find that there are two options showing "0" transfers. Look at the Schedule Details, it'll go through Saint Louis and Denver.


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## Bob Dylan

This is the very reason I don't want to ride a Bus from Coast to Coast! In 1963 I rode from San Diego to New London! Never again!

Mega Bus and the fancy new Greyhounds are OK for Regional Day Trips(say Austin to Dallas) but a week of day and night on a Bus is torture!


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## Swadian Hardcore

jimhudson said:


> This is the very reason I don't want to ride a Bus from Coast to Coast! In 1963 I rode from San Diego to New London! Never again!
> 
> Mega Bus and the fancy new Greyhounds are OK for Regional Day Trips(say Austin to Dallas) but a week of day and night on a Bus is torture!


What is the very reason? It's 65 hours, hardly a week. In 1963 Greyhound buses were narrower, louder, less stable, and much slower than today. Greyhound buses today are even much better than in 2011, let alone 1963. You don't want to ride SD buses too much, they are dirtier than LD buses and have more suspicous passengers.

Maybe I should ride that new Transcon and do a trip report myself to prove that it is fine, even though I have quoted many other trip reports about it before.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the timetable updates.


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## jebr

For a distance that long, a Greyhound seat won't cut it...that's still three nights and two days just in transit. It's still more expensive than Amtrak, too (looking at August 12, Greyhound is $228 in coach and Amtrak is $223.) The length is about the same for the afternoon departure (though Amtrak has no morning option to arrive a bit earlier.) Yes, there's a transfer for Amtrak, but I wouldn't be opposed to a longer layover on a three-night trip anyways. I'm just not sold that Greyhound will have any competitive advantage on this run versus the competition...it doesn't have the price advantage or any real speed advantage.

I wish them luck on this, but I don't see them having a lot of uptake on the long-distance buses. Maybe they enable connections that I'm not aware of (or a straight-shot for some passengers who don't have a straight shot currently and the price is competitive) and so they'll be successful there. But in the end-to-end market I'm skeptical that they'll be popular.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not at all familiar with the TRIPS booking system, but can't one book a ticket to anywhere on Greyhound, regardless of a thru bus, or having to make a couple of transfers?
> 
> I'll see what I can find out here, but likely, no one here will know, either, until the new TT is published....
> 
> 
> 
> You just have to try a mock booking from New York to Los Angeles. Apprently the route starts on June 27th, 2014. You'll quickly find that there are two options showing "0" transfers. Look at the Schedule Details, it'll go through Saint Louis and Denver.
Click to expand...

Interesting that they are restoring coast to coast thru buses after a several year hiatus....perhaps, (hopefully), they are changing their business model initiated by their former CEO to discouraging long distance travel in favor of short to medium distance 'hub and spoke' scheduling. That campaign has decimated their route map over the past twenty years or so.

The new thru route may even be a first for them.....New York-Kansas City-Denver-Las Vegas-Los Angeles, I don't believe ever happened before. Most thru buses in the past ran New York-St. Lous- Oklahoma City-Amarillo-Albuquerque-Los Angeles, with a few going New York-Chicago-Omaha-Cheyenne-Salt Lake City- Los Angeles, with a variation going from Omaha-Denver-Las Vegas-Los Angeles in later years.

Continental Trailways ran those routes, as well as one that ran New York-Kansas City-Wichita-Liberal-Albuquerque-Los Angeles.

There is no doubt that not many will utilize a bus on a coast to coast trip in this day and age of low cost air carrier's, other than the "backpacker's" consisting of European students over here on vacation, wanting to see the country at 'see-level'.....but it is kind of neat that the option will again be available.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> For a distance that long, a Greyhound seat won't cut it...that's still three nights and two days just in transit. It's still more expensive than Amtrak, too (looking at August 12, Greyhound is $228 in coach and Amtrak is $223.) The length is about the same for the afternoon departure (though Amtrak has no morning option to arrive a bit earlier.) Yes, there's a transfer for Amtrak, but I wouldn't be opposed to a longer layover on a three-night trip anyways. I'm just not sold that Greyhound will have any competitive advantage on this run versus the competition...it doesn't have the price advantage or any real speed advantage.
> 
> I wish them luck on this, but I don't see them having a lot of uptake on the long-distance buses. Maybe they enable connections that I'm not aware of (or a straight-shot for some passengers who don't have a straight shot currently and the price is competitive) and so they'll be successful there. But in the end-to-end market I'm skeptical that they'll be popular.


Check Philadelphia-Los Angeles. That's only $129. And at this point, Greyhound isn't much worse than Amtrak LD Coach. No more overbooking, buffed security, great views out both sides, impeccable bus restrooms, and to many travellers, that Wi-Fi is important. Yes less legroom, but the same recline on some buses, and the views are better with those big windows. Plus Greyhound smells a lot better than they used to.

Most importantly, Greyhound's new route doesn't parralel any Amtrak route. So a sightseer could ride Amtrak one way and Greyhound the other, seeing very different scenery.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not at all familiar with the TRIPS booking system, but can't one book a ticket to anywhere on Greyhound, regardless of a thru bus, or having to make a couple of transfers?
> 
> I'll see what I can find out here, but likely, no one here will know, either, until the new TT is published....
> 
> 
> 
> You just have to try a mock booking from New York to Los Angeles. Apprently the route starts on June 27th, 2014. You'll quickly find that there are two options showing "0" transfers. Look at the Schedule Details, it'll go through Saint Louis and Denver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting that they are restoring coast to coast thru buses after a several year hiatus....perhaps, (hopefully), they are changing their business model initiated by their former CEO to discouraging long distance travel in favor of short to medium distance 'hub and spoke' scheduling. That campaign has decimated their route map over the past twenty years or so.
> 
> The new thru route may even be a first for them.....New York-Kansas City-Denver-Las Vegas-Los Angeles, I don't believe ever happened before. Most thru buses in the past ran New York-St. Lous- Oklahoma City-Amarillo-Albuquerque-Los Angeles, with a few going New York-Chicago-Omaha-Cheyenne-Salt Lake City- Los Angeles, with a variation going from Omaha-Denver-Las Vegas-Los Angeles in later years.
> 
> Continental Trailways ran those routes, as well as one that ran New York-Kansas City-Wichita-Liberal-Albuquerque-Los Angeles.
> 
> There is no doubt that not many will utilize a bus on a coast to coast trip in this day and age of low cost air carrier's, other than the "backpacker's" consisting of European students over here on vacation, wanting to see the country at 'see-level'.....but it is kind of neat that the option will again be available.
Click to expand...

Great thing is that it actually take the most scenic route. Rolling hills and farmland in the East, then Great Plains, then the Front Range, Genwood Canyon, San Rafael Swell, Virgin River Gorge, Cajon Pass. Even better, it now offers a bunch of new connections. For example, you can now get on a Greyhound in Glenwood Springs and get off in Topeka. Or get on in Los Angeles, and get off in Saint George. Or any combination you can think of.

*Which brings me to my point: You don't have to ride New York to Los Angeles in one go.* The smart way to do it is to take advantage of the minimum 3-times-daily service along the length of the route. Once the PDF timetable gets released, it'll be easy to construct an itinerary across the entire country by hopping on and off various buses at various places, only stopping in where you want to stop, and not having to transfer anywhere you don't want to stop. And if you find the Plains boring, just "skip" over it by riding overnight. There's an option for everybody with this new route structure.

BTW, it's 2x daily New York-Los Angeles, but supported by 1x daily New York-Denver and Denver-Los Angeles, so it's really offering lots of flexibility. I'll probably start a new thread when I get a list of all the new routes. Basically, think of it as a "hop-on hop-off" tour bus across America, not as New York to Los Angeles transpportation.


----------



## rickycourtney

Sorry Swad, but I'm calling BS...

Amtrak's coach seats are 21" wide with a 50" pitch, leg rests, foot rests and a recline angle that rivals domestic first class on most airliners.

Greyhounds seats are 4 inches narrower and there's no Greyhound bus with a similar recline.

No matter how good Greyhound is getting at maintaining their "impeccable" lavatories... they're still non flushing chemical toilets with hand sanitizer. Basically one step up from a porta potty. I'll take a flushing toilet on a plane or a train over that any day.

Now the WiFi is a very nice feature and a very big advantage for Greyhound and I agree... if you want to see the country and go on an adventure... taking Amtrak one way and Greyhound the other would be a good way to go!


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## Bob Dylan

The WiFi and the new buses are a plus but you still can't get up and walk around like you do on a train or go to the cafe or diner for a drink or bite to eat! As for sightseeing out the "bigger" windows, tough to beat a Superliner whether Coach or a Sightseer Lounge!

As to the routes, Greyhound still uses Interstate Highways which are some of the most boring roads in the world! Amtrak goes lots of places where there are no roads! And they are not really price competitive when you consider the comfort levels!

As I said, I'll use Megs Bus on short day trips especially for their low fares but for overnight trips and cross country make mine Amtrak!

Everybody to their own tastes said the old maid as she kissed the cow!


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## Green Maned Lion

Swadian, when are you going to get that you have personal preferences? So you like the bus. Great. I take busses, but have no desire at all to spend three days on one. Does that make me wrong? No. Does it make your desire to do it wrong? No.

It's like you telling us that since you like pistachio ice cream, it's obviously good. If we don't like it it is either because we don't remember how good it is, or we haven't eaten enough of it to understand how good it is. Pfui. Embrace the variety of life, me boy.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, there is a Greyhound bus with similar recline to Amtrak, but Ricky and Jim have not ridden it before. The same Greyhound offers better views that a Sightseer Lounge, because you can look out the front, both sides, and at a steep upwards angle. The Sightseer has all those, except the front view. And while you think Interstates are boring, the section from Denver to Las Vegas matches the CZ. After all, it takes pretty much the same route. Don't believe me? Ride it.

Amtrak seats are bigger but have worse lumbar support. That means they're better for falling asleep but result in a highly possibility of pain upon waking up. I know because I'm tried sleeping in them before. They're even worse for sitting.

Amtrak has "better" lavatories, but Greyhound ones work fine and they don't leak out the weird smell that fills in Amtrak trains, because Amtrak trains are old and possibly have outdated HVAC. Also, Amtrak HVAC is louder and more annoying than Greyhound HVAC.

Amtrak attendants have generally been less friendly than Greyhound drivers. No surprise since it's boring to be an attendant. Amtrak doesn't offer exiciting "locking and passing" of tractor-trailers. Amtrak doesn't offer three runs a day along a transcon route. Amtrak passengers are generally richer and more arrogant than Greyhound passengers. Tehy look down on anyone that mentions "Greyhound", which includes me.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Look, let me just admit something to you. I am happier on Greyhound than on Amtrak.You don't have to agree, but I don't think riding Greyhound is torture at all, I think it's entertainment. Riding Amtrak is not just boring, but also results in tension. I come off Amtrak rides wishing I had ridden Greyhound. Despite Greyhound discouriging photopgrahy, I feel like Greyhound travel has been a part of me, and Amtrak is not.

So it's not that I don't like trains, I just don't like Amtrak. I am very much a railfan, I still take photos of trains whenever I see the chance. In fact, when I saw the CZ passing in Berkeley after almost getting mugged under a bridge, I still tried to shoot it, Didn't turn out well, but at least I tried. I like trains, I just don't like Amtrak, and I don't want to ride Amtrak again. The atmosphere on Amtrak just doesn't fit me.


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## AmtrakBlue

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Look, let me just admit something to you. I am happier on Greyhound than on Amtrak.You don't have to agree, but I don't think riding Greyhound is torture at all, I think it's entertainment. Riding Amtrak is not just boring, but also results in tension. I come off Amtrak rides wishing I had ridden Greyhound. Despite Greyhound discouriging photopgrahy, I feel like Greyhound travel has been a part of me, and Amtrak is not.
> 
> So it's not that I don't like trains, I just don't like Amtrak. I am very much a railfan, I still take photos of trains whenever I see the chance. In fact, when I saw the CZ passing in Berkeley after almost getting mugged under a bridge, I still tried to shoot it, Didn't turn out well, but at least I tried. I like trains, I just don't like Amtrak, and I don't want to ride Amtrak again. The atmosphere on Amtrak just doesn't fit me.


Then WHY are you on an AMTRAK forum? Do people who don't like Greyhound go on a Greyhound forum and keep talking about how great Amtrak is and how awful Greyhound is?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here, to stop this argument once and for all, I offer something that you may find interesting.

*If you want to ride from New York to Los Angeles, then ride Amtrak.*

*If you want to ride from New York to Pittsburgh to Saint Louis to Salina to Glenwood Springs to Las Vegas to Los Angeles, then ride Greyhound.*

*If you want to ride across the country, ride Amtrak. If you want to ride across the country and make tons of stops along the way, ride Greyhound.*

That is technically the "correct" way to use Amtrak and Greyhound, so most people should agree with it. Personally, I am totally avoiding Amtrak so I wouldn't use such a plan



AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look, let me just admit something to you. I am happier on Greyhound than on Amtrak.You don't have to agree, but I don't think riding Greyhound is torture at all, I think it's entertainment. Riding Amtrak is not just boring, but also results in tension. I come off Amtrak rides wishing I had ridden Greyhound. Despite Greyhound discouriging photopgrahy, I feel like Greyhound travel has been a part of me, and Amtrak is not.
> 
> So it's not that I don't like trains, I just don't like Amtrak. I am very much a railfan, I still take photos of trains whenever I see the chance. In fact, when I saw the CZ passing in Berkeley after almost getting mugged under a bridge, I still tried to shoot it, Didn't turn out well, but at least I tried. I like trains, I just don't like Amtrak, and I don't want to ride Amtrak again. The atmosphere on Amtrak just doesn't fit me.
> 
> 
> 
> Then WHY are you on an AMTRAK forum? Do people who don't like Greyhound go on a Greyhound forum and keep talking about how great Amtrak is and how awful Greyhound is?
Click to expand...

I told you already: Because I'm a railfan.

I didn't say Amtrak was awful, I said Amtrak is not the right transport for me. I didn't say Greyhound was perfect, they discourage photography, that's not great.

How many times do I have to say that just because I dislike Amtrak doesn't mean I'm not a railfan?! Am I the only person on this forum that dislikes Amtrak? NO! At least I'm better than pure Amtrak bashers that are NOT railfans, and even they are allowed on this forum!


----------



## Bob Dylan

I understand your fondness for Greyhound and buses and I'm impressed that Greyhound is making a comeback and running new buses and with more routes!

Any form of transportation that gets you where you're going @ a price you can afford is good!

I choose to ride Amtrak on LD trips but when a bus, whether Greyhound, Megsbus or Bolt or whatever offers cheap fares for short run buses it would interest me!

I enjoy your trip reports and your love of travel, keep on keep in on!


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## Swadian Hardcore

jimhudson said:


> I understand your fondness for Greyhound and buses and I'm impressed that Greyhound is making a comeback and running new buses and with more routes!
> 
> Any form of transportation that gets you where you're going @ a price you can afford is good!
> 
> I choose to ride Amtrak on LD trips but when a bus, whether Greyhound, Megsbus or Bolt or whatever offers cheap fares for short run buses it would interest me!
> 
> I enjoy your trip reports and your love of travel, keep on keep in on!


Thank you. Let us all enjoy travel instead of nitpicking over personal preferences.


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here, to stop this argument once and for all, I offer something that you may find interesting.
> 
> *If you want to ride from New York to Los Angeles, then ride Amtrak.*
> 
> *If you want to ride from New York to Pittsburgh to Saint Louis to Salina to Glenwood Springs to Las Vegas to Los Angeles, then ride Greyhound.*
> 
> *If you want to ride across the country, ride Amtrak. If you want to ride across the country and make tons of stops along the way, ride Greyhound.*
> 
> That is technically the "correct" way to use Amtrak and Greyhound, so most people should agree with it.


There is no "correct" way to ride any mode of transport. I can certainly take Amtrak and stop along the way as well...there's no reason why I can't, I just (for the most part) must do it in 24-hour intervals (or multiple 24-hour intervals.) I can take Greyhound from New York to Los Angeles if I wanted. And neither of those is an incorrect way of traveling on either mode of transportation. I can also follow your guideline and not be incorrect either. That's the beauty of multiple modes of transport, each person can pick what's best for them.

That being said, part of the idea of a forum is to discuss our opinions, and people will differ on their opinions. That's okay. But if you're on an Amtrak forum stating that Amtrak is not a good mode of transportation (or that Greyhound is an amazing form of transportation,) expect a lot of people to disagree with that opinion.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's why I'm on GTE as well. I have to say, the people there are tight-knit and nicer. They don't grind axes. Apparently some people on AU are bent on grinding an axe against me, for the simple reason that our opinions differ. We have differing opinions of GTE as well, but I have never seen a brawl like I've seen many times on AU.

Maybe it's because Greyhound isn't government-owned, so everything they do can be written off by, "They just need the money". People were angry that Greyhound was putting their worst buses in Seattle, but then it was easily explained by, "Why put good buses in a place that makes bad money?"

Also, the reason I would those "mode tactics" is to take advantage of both Amtrak and Greyhound. You're not taking max advantage of Amtrak if you want to stop off all over the place, and you're not taking advantage of Greyhound if you're just riding straight all the way.


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## Caesar La Rock

I haven't been on Greyhound for a while, but I've seen some of the buses they have. I'd prefer to ride on the 102-DL3s. The last time I rode on Greyhound, they still had MC-9s (rebuilt and renumbered into the 5000-5400 series), MC-12s, and 102A3s (on their last legs).

Miss those old coaches, which truly were the Americusisers. Back then, Greyhound also bought some Eagle coaches, sadly I never got the chance to ride on them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

THE CJ said:


> I haven't been on Greyhound for a while, but I've seen some of the buses they have. I'd prefer to ride on the 102-DL3s. The last time I rode on Greyhound, they still had MC-9s (rebuilt and renumbered into the 5000-5400 series), MC-12s, and 102A3s (on their last legs).
> 
> Miss those old coaches, which truly were the Americusisers. Back then, Greyhound also bought some Eagle coaches, sadly I never got the chance to ride on them.


Yeah, the DL3 is the best! No surprise my avatar and signature both contain it! They have ones from 1996 still rebuilt and running strong, _and_ way better than those G4500's or even the D4505.


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## rickycourtney

I was in the area so I stopped by the Greyhound station again. Both 7146 and 7426 were there.




I've seen these buses a few times before, they seem to be regulars here in Seattle. I also noticed that 7246 has a small faded purple sticker on the back that says "SEA" with 3 numbers. Wonder what that means (old assignment stickers?)

I also have a few new spottings for you:

7121 Blue G4500

7253 White G4500, faded decals


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks! That's a pool sticker, means it is part of the Seattle pool, every pool has a three-digit code. #7200-7270 (give or take) were Seattle's only fleet units before the rebuilds, other G4500's were in other pools. Many of the 7200's burned or wrecked.

They used to have DL3's assigned to the special "Los Angeles-Vancouver" pool, #627, which was disbanded in the early 2000's. That's why, a year ago, you wouldn't have seen much else in Seattle other than #7200-7270, maybe a few G's from Los Angeles or a D from the All 48 States pool. #7146 had probably never been to Seattle before rebuilds.


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## rickycourtney

Thanks Swad, that's neat. Interesting to hear how things have changed.

It's amazing how much better those G4500s look after the refurbishment... its like night and day. The G4500 also has the benefit that it was such a "modern" looking bus when it was introduced (heck the D4505 uses the same headlights)... when you put a fresh coat of paint on it, to the layperson it looks like a new bus from the outside.

The inside may be a different story... still haven't seen an interior shot of one of these rebuilt G4500 coaches.


----------



## rickycourtney

Thanks Swad, that's neat. Interesting to hear how things have changed.

It's amazing how much better those G4500s look after the refurbishment... its like night and day. The G4500 also has the benefit that it was such a "modern" looking bus when it was introduced (heck the D4505 uses the same headlights)... when you put a fresh coat of paint on it, to the layperson it looks like a new bus from the outside.

The inside may be a different story... still haven't seen an interior shot of one of these rebuilt G4500 coaches.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Didn't I show you a video of a G4500 interior? I remember it had the same seats but just with extra legroom, new covers, and the power outlets bar added, like the DL3's. But the rebuild can only be successful if the slew of breakdowns, accidents, and fires involving the G4500 are suppressed. This "reduced" rebuild, compared to the DL3, might not be enough to suppress that.

Also, none of the "modern-looking" buses are that great, the E4500 was bad, the G4500even worse, the J4500 just a cheap E4500, the D4505 is the only one made of steel instead of fiberglass, but is still a problematic downgrade from the 102DL3.


----------



## rickycourtney

Well that video wasn't that great... you just got small crappy views of the interior. We haven't seen a nice walk through video or any nice photos of the interior (like you shoot).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks! Ha, if no one else takes a good photo, I'll have to go to Seattle and ride one myself, that'll get a photo of the interior as long as I don't catch it when it's full of pax, they would think I'm weird.

Really interested in what Greyhound will be using for the new LAD-VAC and LAD-SEA routes, they will pretty much turn that highway (I-5) into one huge corridor with short-hauls supporting. I'm guessing D4505's since they just sent some DL3's to Reno from the East. Apparently the new X3's relieved the DL3's, which are now relieving D4505's so that they can run all the way to Vancouver.

But that leaves little room for the G4500's, especially since the H3-45's are running SEA-VAC O&D. We'll see, since almost all the Western routes are getting frequency boosts, including RNO-SFD. BTW, Greyhound just went through heavy Website Maintenance, maybe that introduces yield management nationwide and totally kills overbooking.


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## Caesar La Rock

I'm hoping Greyhound buys Setras. Love the looks on those buses. The Mercedes Benz engine could be rated at either 450hp or 500hp. I know Lynx is getting six motorcoaches late this year. Don't know if they will be MCIs or Setras.


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## Swadian Hardcore

THE CJ said:


> I'm hoping Greyhound buys Setras. Love the looks on those buses. The Mercedes Benz engine could be rated at either 450hp or 500hp. I know Lynx is getting six motorcoaches late this year. Don't know if they will be MCIs or Setras.


Greyhound already tested and rejected Setra's. They are hated by drivers. They are about as bad as any other Mercedes buses: which means REALLY, REALLY BAD. High center of gravity, bad radiators, windshield too big, rear windows, and weak fenders are just a few reasons why Setra buses are terrible.

Any bus with rear windows is bad for intercity use, that means they have low-mounted radiator/air intake. Not possible to hit 1,000,000 miles with such a bus. Greyhound needs a bus that can run at least 2,000,000 miles, right now the D4505 might be able to do that, but generally, any bus with a modern look is s--t. 102DL3's after rebuild are expected to run 3,300,000 miles.

Besides, Greyhound needs no more than 400hp and 1500 lbs torque as long as the bus has a low center of gravity, something that only the X3-45 and D4505 have.

If you like Setras, just ask Railiner. He's driven them, and he hates them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

New System Timetable now completed and released: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules2/pageset.html.

Still has a few minor errors, for example, Sked 1683 now runs NYD-LAD, but shows NYD-DEN. Then again, it does run NYD-DEN, so not too big of a deal. Also, 1446 shows LAD-PUT, it actually runs LAD-SEA.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Swadian Hardcore said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping Greyhound buys Setras. Love the looks on those buses. The Mercedes Benz engine could be rated at either 450hp or 500hp. I know Lynx is getting six motorcoaches late this year. Don't know if they will be MCIs or Setras.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound already tested and rejected Setra's. They are hated by drivers. They are about as bad as any other Mercedes buses: which means REALLY, REALLY BAD. High center of gravity, bad radiators, windshield too big, rear windows, and weak fenders are just a few reasons why Setra buses are terrible.
> Any bus with rear windows is bad for intercity use, that means they have low-mounted radiator/air intake. Not possible to hit 1,000,000 miles with such a bus. Greyhound needs a bus that can run at least 2,000,000 miles, right now the D4505 might be able to do that, but generally, any bus with a modern look is s--t. 102DL3's after rebuild are expected to run 3,300,000 miles.
> 
> Besides, Greyhound needs no more than 400hp and 1500 lbs torque as long as the bus has a low center of gravity, something that only the X3-45 and D4505 have.
> 
> If you like Setras, just ask Railiner. He's driven them, and he hates them.
Click to expand...

Too big a front window? Presence of a back window? God what problems these busses have!


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## Caesar La Rock

JetSet seems to like them, since they have mostly those along with some Van Hools. Setra S417s I believe. This is a picture of JetSet's Setras.


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## railiner

I do dislike them, and have ridden in them, but have not actually driven them. But I agree that those driver's I speak with, (Academy and Martz) do dislike them. Academy has a large fleet of Setra's, and they are getting rid of them as fast as they can....They are returning to Prevost H3's. Martz doen't like them either, and is getting new J4500's The Setra's look very "Euro" (as they should), but they are probably the worst of the tour coaches currently available in the North American market....yes, IMHO even the Van Hool's are superior to the Setra's......


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> New System Timetable now completed and released: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules2/pageset.html.
> 
> Still has a few minor errors, for example, Sked 1683 now runs NYD-LAD, but shows NYD-DEN. Then again, it does run NYD-DEN, so not too big of a deal. Also, 1446 shows LAD-PUT, it actually runs LAD-SEA.


Those appear to be typos. 1446 being LAD-PUT is only on table 600, it's correct on the rest.

Also interesting... Greyhound is running a through route from Fresno to Mexicali, Mexico.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Pretty sure the Van Hool is better than the Setra. As bad as the Hoot Owls are, they have sold much better than the Setra's. Arrow-Black Hills Stages, the biggest Setra operator in North America, is switching to J4500's for charters and D4505's for lines. In fact, their new D4505's with flat-screen televisions and wide headrests have replaced all the Setra's on lines.

DATTCO, who operates a few Setra's for Megabus, mainly uses Van Hool now, but also bought some D4500CT's, as with C&J.

I can't quote on this PC, but I'm appalled that "MC CJ" would like Setra buses, they may look cool to _you_, but I cannot see any way they are good buses. Look at those pathetic fenders. Drivers love sitting high, but Setra drivers sit lower than DL3 drivers, yet the passenger deck is higher! Ugh, no wonder no one wants to drive a Setra. I know one of the things drivers love about the DL3 is the high driver's seat, great sight lines ahead and not getting "dipped" from the passenger deck. It's slightly tiered but not a real dip.


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## railiner

As a passenger, the first thing I notice, when entering a Setra, is the rather "flimsy looking" stepwell and stairs in the entrance, compared to the "finished and rugged looking" ones in the other coaches. Another is the anemic overhead parcel racks.....not good for much more than a thin briefcase....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> New System Timetable now completed and released: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules2/pageset.html.
> 
> Still has a few minor errors, for example, Sked 1683 now runs NYD-LAD, but shows NYD-DEN. Then again, it does run NYD-DEN, so not too big of a deal. Also, 1446 shows LAD-PUT, it actually runs LAD-SEA.


I was perusing the Greyhound Canada timetable a few days ago, and was surprised to discover that GLC has published some timetables of truck schedules. I knew they had some trailer's behind buses on several routes, but did not know that they also ran trucks.....some apparently Company operated, and other's contracted out, carry "Courier Express"......I wonder if they use bus driver's to operate the trucks, or a separate roster of driver's dedicated to that service? Would like to see a photo of their trucks, or any other fleet info......


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## Green Maned Lion

That's interesting, because I was talking to an NJ based Academy driver the other day, and he drives both NJT MCIs and Setras, and he said that he vastly prefers the Setra for its superior ride, better maneuverability, and better separation from passengers.


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## Caesar La Rock

Haven't really asked any of these drivers for these tour operators how they feel about Setras. I can tell you there are several companies that do have Setras, mixed with other coaches. Also, comparing bus performances up North is a different ball game compared to down South. Certain buses work well in certain areas in the country. This is JetSet's yard. Taken by Marcelo Concha Jr.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That rear window is bad because it greatly restricts the space available for the radiator. Setras have much smaller radiators than MCI D's. Small radiators are terrible for intercity use. And no good driver would want to be separated from his passengers, being separated means he doesn't care about them. If they are messing around and causing trouble, the driver wouldn't know. And if the driver has a heart attack, passengers won't see. Only self-centered drivers who treat passengers as "the enemy" would want to be separated from his passengers, his passengers are the reason why he's driving the bus, even if they are smelly and poor, he must not be separated from them by anything more than a small polycarbonate gate.

Also, Setra's pathetic weak fenders are also terrible for intercity work. They cannot exceed 1,000,000 miles, a DL3 can exceed 2,000,000 miles and more. The DL3 has one Achilles' Heel: maneuverability. Maneuverability does not matter much for Greyhound's highway routes. So the DL3 is the Ultimate Intercity Bus, anything that beats it on one aspect will be crushed by the other aspects. And anything that cannot run at least 1,500,000 miles will not even come close, that includes the Setra. If you do not consider mileage life as part of your $500,000 investment, then you are one dumb bus operator, JetSet.

If any of you want to say something other than the MCI 102DL3 is the Ultimate Intercity Bus, show me something with at least 1,500,000 miles on it and still going strong. I know other MCI's and Prevost's have done that well, but I haven't seen such from any other manufacturer. Then Greyhound will take notice, and I will surely take notice if Greyhound orders it. If it can't run that many miles, then it's junk.

And I'm not even talking about the aspects other than mileage right now. Since, with 6.79 mpg highway, as official government tests have proven, the 102DL3 is one efficient bus as well.

Even the average G4500 has run 1,200,000 miles, though not "going strong" by any means.


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## Caesar La Rock

I guess you missed the part where I said, certain buses work better in certain parts of the country. That's fine as I understand. It's also difficult to know how a fleet of buses will perform, when the fleet is still newer. The Setras in their fleet don't appear to be too old, so I would wait another five or so years, before we can judge them.

Older Setras from the 1980s have been in use before. I'm not sure how they performed compared to the S 407 or S 417. As far as the ultimate intercity bus, that title belongs to the MC-9, IMO. I've seen transit buses with over 1, 500,000 miles. Any bus can be made to run that many miles, it just depends on the maintenance cycle of the coaches themselves.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I disagree, the MC-9 is overrated. Greyhound's 1984 MC-9's were retired in 1999. Back then the average Greyhound ran 100,000 miles a year. That means 1,500,000 miles. Hardly spectacular. A few were kept in the spare fleet until 2001, AFAIK. But the spare fleet runs very few miles. MC-12 is even more overrated. Some 1993 MC-12's were retired in 2005.12 years in service, probably about 1,400,000 miles.

You are conveniently avoiding the radiator, fender, high center-of-gravity, and driver separation issues of the Setra.

And the Ultimate Intercity Bus goes uphill on Interstates at 45 mph? And guzzles diesel with a two-stroke engine? That's how the MC-9 performed.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The assumption that the radiator must be placed where the rear window is is somewhat silly. Frankly, if I was designing a bus the radiator would be located longitudinally over the surface of the roof, in aerodynamic cooling fins, eliminating the need for a cooling fan. Knowing Mercedes engineering culture as I do, I'd assume they discarded the placement of a lot of heavy fluid high up to improve stability.

Your statement about their fenders requires a lot more explaining then simply calling them fenders and deeming them weak. Fenders are a largely cosmetic covering. Their weakness would be irrelevant, since they bear no weight. I assume you are actually talking about something else.

I have not seen any indication they have a higher center of gravity.

You have to realize that for any given problem there is more than one solution. For example, let's say I want to generate 270 horsepower in a mid size family sedan. Ford, Hyundai, Chevrolet, and KIA us turbocharged straight fours. Volvo uses a turbocharged straight five. Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, and Volkswagen use naturally aspirated V6 engines. Subaru uses a naturally aspirated FLAT 6.

Each choice has it's advantages and disadvantages. The Turbo 4 is expensive, and is less durable, but offers improved economy under light loads- and worse economy under heavy loads. The straight five offers a compromise between the low durability of a 4 and the bad fuel economy of a V6. The V6 is cheaper and more durable, but not as economical. The Flat 6 is extremely durable, much smoother, provides superior handling due to its low center of gravity, allows for a longitudinal installation, but is heavy on fuel usage.

None of these solutions is "wrong". They just are made differently.

Same thing with a bus.


----------



## rickycourtney

The other thing to understand here is that there are really two types of motorcoaches, line-haul and charter.

Taking Setra out of this for a moment lets look at the two manufacturers Greyhound uses MCI and Prevost... both make line-haul coaches (the D4505 and the X3-45) and both make charter coaches (the J4500 and the H3-45). This is a change from a few decades ago when most companies made just line-haul buses and charter operators bought them used.

Greyhound has been buying line-haul coaches from both companies almost as fast as they can roll off the assembly line... and despite a few qualms you seem to think the D4505 and the X3-45 are okay but you dismiss the charter buses as total crap.

I argue that you're not looking at this the right way... yes charter buses aren't the right choice for line-haul services... but line-haul coaches (like the 102-DL3) aren't what charter operators want.

Charter bus companies want a bus that looks modern and has a lot of bells and whistles to attract customers. Unlike Greyhound, these buses tend to run short routes, on weekends, with people who often have little or no luggage. These companies also tend to operate the buses for a few years and retire them when they start looking "old" so they want them to be affordable.

That's the polar opposite of what Greyhound wants in a bus... but does that make them crap? No. It just means they're meant for another type of service.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

And now that Mercedes has allowed their logo to be placed on Setra busses, that makes them even more desirable for charter. Let's face it, customers on charter busses like the idea of riding in a Mercedes.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I disagree, the MC-9 is overrated. Greyhound's 1984 MC-9's were retired in 1999. Back then the average Greyhound ran 100,000 miles a year. That means 1,500,000 miles. Hardly spectacular. A few were kept in the spare fleet until 2001, AFAIK. But the spare fleet runs very few miles. MC-12 is even more overrated. Some 1993 MC-12's were retired in 2005.12 years in service, probably about 1,400,000 miles.
> 
> You are conveniently avoiding the radiator, fender, high center-of-gravity, and driver separation issues of the Setra.
> 
> And the Ultimate Intercity Bus goes uphill on Interstates at 45 mph? And guzzles diesel with a two-stroke engine? That's how the MC-9 performed.


The younger MC-9s were retired, but the older ones that were rebuilt and renumbered in the 5000s series kept running up until 2001. As far as overrated goes, the G Series takes the cake on that. Not only are they overrated, they're garbage.

It's no wonder why Greyhound turned to Prevost for coaches. The reason Greyhound choose the MC-12s, was because they didn't like the A series models and the MC-12 was pretty much a spinoff to the MC-9s. Also, the MC-12s were retired likely because they didn't have wheelchair lifts in them.

Now as for Setras, rickycourtney said it best. Very few companies around here prefer 102-DL3s or line haul coaches. I've seen some, but not a lot with these charter companies. That's probably why Van Hools are the king around here, with Setras also being here.


----------



## railiner

THE CJ said:


> . That's probably why Van Hools are the king around here
> 
> ,


$$$............


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> That's interesting, because I was talking to an NJ based Academy driver the other day, and he drives both NJT MCIs and Setras, and he said that he vastly prefers the Setra for its superior ride, better maneuverability, and better separation from passengers.


It could be that the Setra's have a fraction of the mileage, and easier use than Academy's NJT-owned commuter MCI's have... I will concede that the Setra's have a tighter turning radius than the MCI's do. I don't know about the claim of better separation from the passenger's.....

I will ask some more driver's for their opinions that have driven both, when I return to work this week, and report back with their comments....


----------



## railiner

THE CJ said:


> It's no wonder why Greyhound turned to Prevost for coaches. The reason Greyhound choose the MC-12s, was because they didn't like the A series models and the MC-12 was pretty much a spinoff to the MC-9s. Also, the MC-12s were retired likely because they didn't have wheelchair lifts in them.


One reason that Greyhound turned to Prevost, was because they waited too long to acquire lift-buses, and MCI couldn't build them fast enough to meet Greyhound's demand in time for the ADA compliance deadline......


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> And now that Mercedes has allowed their logo to be placed on Setra busses, that makes them even more desirable for charter. Let's face it, customers on charter busses like the idea of riding in a Mercedes.


Have to agree with that....nothing like "badge-engineering".....which "Sprinter" van is most desireable? The one with 'Dodge Ram', 'Freightliner', or Mercedes (logo) on the hood?

As for the relationship with Setra (formerly Kassbohrer-Setra) and Mercedes, I wonder what (if any) synergy exists between the two, other than Daimler purchasing Setra, a few years ago? Mercedes did try to market their own line of coaches here in the late 1960's, most notably the "O-302", and it was a market flop....Even their engines....case in point, the two prototype Greyhound MC-6X's built in 1967. 4599 had a Detroit Diesel 12v71, and 4598 had the most powerful available Mercedes 8...The Mercedes spent most of the three month trial on the New York - Chicago non-stop schedule in the shop. At the end of the trial, the Mercedes engine was replaced with a DD 12v71, as were the 100 production models that were built in 1969.


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## Green Maned Lion

Sprinters are Mercedes vans. Their other badging was an attempt not to dilute the luxury car brand here. Setra has been a Daimler brand for longer than the current models have been in it. Infact, it is mostly now Mercedes branding for their busses, just like Freughtliner are Americanized Mercedes trucks.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NOTE: My quoting function appears broken on this new PC. Please excuse me when I use screen names.

Ricky, I actually meant just that. I didn't mean that charter coaches are crap, I said they are crap for Greyhound, because they are not line-haul coaches. I was responding to "THE CJ" who said Greyhound should order Setras, which is not a line-haul bus. It seems that people misunderstood me, I'm saying that Greyhound should not buy Setras. I'm not saying Setras are crap for charter work, but we are discussing in the frame of a Greyhound thread, and Setra is not fit for Greyhound by the longest stretch.

Go back and look at post #589, where "THE CJ" said Greyhound should buy Setras. My immediate response, in post #590, was that Greyhound already tested and rejected Setra's. Also look at post #601, when I repeated mentioned "intercity bus", I believe that to be a generic substitute for "line-haul bus", because most people cannot understand "line-haul bus". I have never mentioned charters in this discussion about Setras. So when I say Setras are junk, I'm saying they are junk as "intercity buses", and thus junk for Greyhound.

CJ, which year of MC-9's was rebuilt and stayed until 2001? Even if they were 1979 MC-9's, the first year that model was made, with the cutoff roof caps, that would've made 2,200,000 miles. I do know that after the 102DL3 entered service, all the MC-9's and 102A3's were relegated to extra sections. So I don't think any Greyhound MC-9 ever beat 2,200,000 miles. That's very good, but not still not spectacular, considering the Greyhound has DL3's right now with 2,000,000 miles and no retirement in sight.

Also, I believe you are mistaken with the MC-12. According to Greyhound drivers, it actually has more in common with the 96A3 than the MC-9. It is a 96A3 up to the sidewalls and a MC-9 above from there. The MC-12 had 96A3 headlights and HVAC unit, but MC-9 dashboard and MC-9 windows. And the G4500 is not overrated, everyone at Greyhound hates it, passengers hate it, bus fans hate it, how is that overrated? You could call the J4500 overrated, since drivers tend to prefer the H3-45.

If the MC-12 was that great of a bus, how come it was ADA-incompliant? Such an illegal bus cannot be good. Not to mention the slow speed and narrow width. Try riding overnight in a MC-12 then overnight in a 102DL3.

As for Setras, of course they have a much smaller turning circle than the 102DL3. The 102DL3 with locked tag axle is probably the least maneuverable bus in service. As I said, that's the Achilles' Heel of the 102DL3, the HUMONGOUS turning circle, which doesn't matter for Greyhound's highway running but it's terrible for charters.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner, you asked about Greyhound Canada trucks, they are indeed full sized tractor-trailers. I found a video of it but can't link it for some reason. No idea about the driver. Greyhound Coquitlam is the freight transfer stop for Vancouver, that's why every bus east out of Vancouver stops in Coquitlam, with a few exceptions.


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## Caesar La Rock

As for the year of which Greyhound MC-9s were rebuilt, that I have not discovered the information for. Some people seem to think those G series are good. Not to Greyhound they were. You can make an older coach ADA compliant.

Several companies around here have retrofitted MC-9s (and even MC-8s) with wheelchair lifts to make them ADA compliant. That explains why I still see those older coaches still around.

Also, I've ridden only MC-9s and MC-12s for Greyhound. I recalled riding one A Series bus. I've done overnight trips with the MC-12s many times before. They were far from slow I'll tell you that much.

Never rode on a D series bus. MC-9, MC-12, and 102A3 are the only MCI coaches I've been on. Never rode on anything else after those. I've ridden Van Hool T2145s and C2045s besides the MCIs.

Also, not every bus puts on the same mileage each year. Mileage can vary for all buses, depending on what routes they travel and so forth. I've seen some buses with higher mileage compared to the same models in the fleet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The MC-12 could easily go 65 mph, that was not slow perhaps, but when going uphill they would quickly drop down to 45 mph or less. The DL3 can climb hills at 75 mph, given it's an Interstate-grade highway, the best speed consistency of the OTRB's. I rode one going up Golconda on I-80 at 75 mph, passed three trucks in row. Then again, it's terrible for charters, with that huge turning circle.

And the fuel efficiency of that bus easily beats the MC-9 or MC-12.


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## rickycourtney

Hey Marcelo/THE CJ- what's your connection to Jet Set? Do you work for them or is it just your local charter operator?

I've seen the Setra S 407 and taken a few rides on the Van Hool C2045. I think the Van Hool was a perfectly fine coach but nothing special. The Setra is really a very good looking coach with lots of curb appeal. Looking at photos of the Setra my biggest complaint is that they have an absolutely anemic overhead parcel rack that seemingly has no way to make sure that items stay on the rack while the bus is in motion. Personally I prefer enclosed airline style luggage racks. They compromise a little storage capacity but it's a much cleaner look.


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## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> Hey Marcelo/THE CJ- what's your connection to Jet Set? Do you work for them or is it just your local charter operator?
> 
> I've seen the Setra S 407 and taken a few rides on the Van Hool C2045. I think the Van Hool was a perfectly fine coach but nothing special. The Setra is really a very good looking coach with lots of curb appeal. Looking at photos of the Setra my biggest complaint is that they have an absolutely anemic overhead parcel rack that seemingly has no way to make sure that items stay on the rack while the bus is in motion. Personally I prefer enclosed airline style luggage racks. They compromise a little storage capacity but it's a much cleaner look.


Oh that's not my video, it's someone else's. JetSet is one of several local charters in the Orlando area. They do runs between Orlando, Kissimmee, and Miami. It's not expensive either. They have a trip to Miami for $23 or $46 roundtrip. Here is their site.

http://www.jetsetusa.com/


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## railiner

railiner said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting, because I was talking to an NJ based Academy driver the other day, and he drives both NJT MCIs and Setras, and he said that he vastly prefers the Setra for its superior ride, better maneuverability, and better separation from passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be that the Setra's have a fraction of the mileage, and easier use than Academy's NJT-owned commuter MCI's have... I will concede that the Setra's have a tighter turning radius than the MCI's do. I don't know about the claim of better separation from the passenger's.....
> 
> I will ask some more driver's for their opinions that have driven both, when I return to work this week, and report back with their comments....
Click to expand...

Okay, I did poll a few Martz driver's today, that had experience in both types, and it was pretty even.....4 preferred the MCI's, and 3 the Setra's.

As for why Martz went back to all MCI purchases, I was told that MCI "made them an offer, they couldn't refuse"....($$$)...... 

If I get a chance, I'll poll some Academy driver's tomorrow......


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## Caesar La Rock

Reading up information on the all time roster for Greyhound, many 102A3s were retired in 1991, before or around the same time the MC-8s being retired. Heard the reason they were retired early was because of frame issues. They likely costed more money to maintain, due to those frame issues as well. Most of the units retired in 1991 were the ones built between 1987-1988 (numbered 1865-1899, 2000-2324). 

It was mostly the ones numbered 2000-2324 that went out in 1991. The rest of the units were slowly retired. The ones left prior to retiring in 2004 were numbered 1524-1803, with 1803 being retrofitted with a wheelchair lift.


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## Caesar La Rock

Wonder how the Prevost X3-45s are compared to the D4505s. Since we could be getting Prevost commuter coaches soon, I might as well ask about the X3-45s.


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm sure the next NJT highway cruisers will be from American Ikarus, because NJT is morally posses to buying from American manufacturers.


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## railiner

THE CJ said:


> Wonder how the Prevost X3-45s are compared to the D4505s. Since we could be getting Prevost commuter coaches soon, I might as well ask about the X3-45s.


I personally prefer the Prevost. It has the best ride in the business, and handles better, as well.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

My opinion: 102DL3/102D3, original D4500/D4000>D4500CL/CT or D4000CT>102A3>X3-45>96A3=MC-12>MC-7/8/9>D4505>H3-41/45>>>E/J4500>>>>>>>>>>G4500 or C2045>>>>T2145>>S-407>S-417>Viaggio>>>TD925>Irizar, Scania, Mercedes, etc.

I thought Eagle had the best ride with their Torsilastic suspension, but harder to maintain and less durable than MCI. Prevost's suspension is still less durable than MCI.

MCI 102DL3: Very good or good at everything except handling.


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## Green Maned Lion

Mercedes builds the best road vehicles in the world. Period, end of discussion. The second best is debatable.


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Mercedes builds the best road vehicles in the world. Period, end of discussion. The second best is debatable.


I would agree with you, if you were talking about say, the S550 (my 'dream' car....), but not when comparing buses....


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I thought Eagle had the best ride with their Torsilastic suspension,


Well yeah.....but when was the last time an Eagle was built?


----------



## rickycourtney

I really enjoyed my ride on the X3-45 better than several rides on the D4505. It has a very smooth, stable ride.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I was told by admins to just ignore people instead of getting into all those arguments. Well, GML can't prove Mercedes buses are better than MCI or Prevost buses. In fact, they got rejected by Greyhound after a one-year demonstration. So, no point for me to argue.

But anyway, bad news for the rebuilt G4500, Josh Harris, who rode on one, says:

"Still sh*tty. Just polished sh*t. Same crappy Thermo King AC/heat unit. I don't care for the seats at all. Leather burns in the summer. So I was sitting on my jacket to avoid that. The outlets and WiFi worked the entire duration of the schedule from Denver to Vegas. We ended up 4 hours down because we ran into a snow storm in Silver Plume, CO, and the tire chains didn't want to cooperate."

I guess it's just a J4500 now.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> I really enjoyed my ride on the X3-45 better than several rides on the D4505. It has a very smooth, stable ride.


One of the reasons, that it is the coach of choice for the very top end ('north of a million dollars) motorhome and entertainer coach conversions....Even the presidential Secret Service coach is a converted X3....


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## Swadian Hardcore

What? Thought it was a H3-45.


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## railiner

No....it's an X3....the Secret Service determined that the H3 model could not be modified to their special requirements.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Found it, it is a black X3-45!


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## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder how the Prevost X3-45s are compared to the D4505s. Since we could be getting Prevost commuter coaches soon, I might as well ask about the X3-45s.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally prefer the Prevost. It has the best ride in the business, and handles better, as well.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear that they ride good. Lynx is to acquire six motorcoaches and it's likely to be Prevost X3-45s. I'm just hoping it's worth the money we're spending on them, if we do get Prevosts. Now as for the C2045, they ride pretty good.

I got my chance to ride on one of Mears' C2045s a week after SunRail opened up on the Xpress 208. At the time, it was free of charge until the 16th and then fares for 208 and SunRail began on the 19th.

Very smooth ride and the only rattling heard was going through small dips on the Florida Turnpike. The classy jazz music playing in the background was very relaxing. I have a video of that ride if anyone wants to see it, I'll post it.

The bus (numbered 4209) uses a Cummins ISX from what I could determine with an Allison B500 and jake brake. It's likely a newer bus, since it has the ISX engine.

As for the durability of Eagles, that's up for debate right there. They were widely used by Trailways, which indicates they must of been good coaches for Trailways. Some Model 05s that were left by 1987 ran for Greyhound when Greyhound bought out Trailways.

Now coaches like the Volvo 9700 (also built by Prevost), Setra S 407 and S 417, and most Van Hool coaches are used mostly for charter/tour companies.

Though, Megabus does have a fleet of Van Hool TD925s as well as other Van Hools in it's fleet. I've even seen a few J4500s in their fleet. Not sure if they have any Prevosts, since all I've seen are Van Hools and MCIs. Heard they had Setras in their fleet too, but a very small number of them.


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## Caesar La Rock

Well the Prevost demo has arrived.


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## railiner

I will awake your opinion with great interest......

As for the Van Hool CO2045.....we have a pair of 2006, four 2009, and several 2012 and 2013 model's... I consider the ride on our 2006 and 2009 to be among the worst riding coaches since the before the air-ride's came out. Our 2012, and 2013 are vastly improved, but still not as good as the Prevost's....


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## railiner

THE CJ said:


> As for the durability of Eagles, that's up for debate right there. They were widely used by Trailways, which indicates they must of been good coaches for Trailways.


The biggest weakness of the Eagle's were their 12 volt electrical system...if you left the ceiling lights on a bit too long while loading the bus withour the engine running...well better keep some jumper cables ready.....

Another weakness was their engine cooling system....overheated very easily.

Our company wags liked to say that new Eagle's came equipped with an empty sodapop can. You know.....so you could prop open the bottom of the engine door while driving down the road for improved cooling....

Our company purchased Eagle's up until 1987. (We also purchased MCI's concurrently). We had several model 10 and model 15's in service until the late 90's.... Greyhound still had some ex Trailways Eagle's in their fleet including some model 15's also around that time. They spent their last years I believe on their Miami-Key West line....Occasionally on holiday's some would end up in NYC....


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## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> I will awake your opinion with great interest......
> 
> As for the Van Hool CO2045.....we have a pair of 2006, four 2009, and several 2012 and 2013 model's... I consider the ride on our 2006 and 2009 to be among the worst riding coaches since the before the air-ride's came out. Our 2012, and 2013 are vastly improved, but still not as good as the Prevost's....


I guess it's maintenance thing. MEARS had trouble with it's first Van Hools in the early 2000s. They were the 1998 T2145s that were bought new, with several being used on the Disney Cruise Line service. They seem to like the C2045s, since those are the only type of new Van Hools I've seen so far. They do have some Volvo 9700s that they acquired recently, though.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the durability of Eagles, that's up for debate right there. They were widely used by Trailways, which indicates they must of been good coaches for Trailways.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest weakness of the Eagle's were their 12 volt electrical system...if you left the ceiling lights on a bit too long while loading the bus withour the engine running...well better keep some jumper cables ready.....
> 
> Another weakness was their engine cooling system....overheated very easily.
> 
> Our company wags liked to say that new Eagle's came equipped with an empty sodapop can. You know.....so you could prop open the bottom of the engine door while driving down the road for improved cooling....
> 
> Our company purchased Eagle's up until 1987. (We also purchased MCI's concurrently). We had several model 10 and model 15's in service until the late 90's.... Greyhound still had some ex Trailways Eagle's in their fleet including some model 15's also around that time. They spent their last years I believe on their Miami-Key West line....Occasionally on holiday's some would end up in NYC....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information on Eagles. I recalled seeing some of those Eagles back in the 90s, but I never rode on them from what I know of.


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## railiner

The Eagle's, as Swadian has mentioned, did have a wonderful ride...they employed the B F Goodrich "Torsilastic" suspension. Here's a link http://www.giantrvonline.com/chassis/velvet_ride.htm with a description of it. This suspension had a huge amount of travel, and you could roll over a pothole and barely be aware of it. The shock absorber's did have to be replaced when worn, or the coach would bounce excessively. the Eagle could take curves almost like a sports car.. Prior to the Eagle, Flxible highway coaches also employed this suspension. Continental Trailways had a large fleet of Flxible VistaLiner's and HiLevel's, and they liked the suspension so much, that they specified it when their engineers designed the Eagle's built at first by Kassbohrer-Setra in Germany.

Another nice feature of the suspension, was unlike an air-ride, the coach, as it aged, did not develop air leaks and consequently bottom-out when shut down overnight and take several minutes of running to rise back to running height...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner, the older Van Hools probably ride worse cause they are older. When the 2013 and 2014 Van Hools get eight years old, I'm guessing they wouldn't be much better. Then again, the T2145 is even worse, I talked to an ex-Kerrville driver, Tom Langford, says they fell apart after two years. People at Kerrville want to dump Coach USA and switch back to Greyhound's alliance. Plenty of anger against Stagecoach right now.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Railiner, the older Van Hools probably ride worse cause they are older. When the 2013 and 2014 Van Hools get eight years old, I'm guessing they wouldn't be much better.


I'm comparing them, from when our 2006 and 2009 were brand-new......they did something to improve the ride on the latest model's, but I do not know just what that is....the earlier model's had a rather harsh ride. The latest model's aren't bad at all, just not as good as the Prevost's.


----------



## rickycourtney

Took a trip down to Southern California this weekend... saw plenty of D4505 coaches out on the road. I also spotted a couple of 102DL3 coaches and a X3-45 that was running from Long Beach to San Diego.

I had never seen a Greyhound Prevost in Southern California before so that was interesting. Glad to see that these great buses are getting out of the Northeast occasionally.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Guess the Van Hool isn't that bad for short routes. Still wouldn't want it for a thousand-mile run though.

Very rare to see 102DL3's in California. I'm surprised you saw any at all. Perhaps they're gearing up for the transcon runs. The X3-45 isn't _that _great of a bus, low luggage capacity and the wheelbase is too long to climb hills well (lose traction). Also not the most durable, it's durable, but less than the DL3. So I think the 102DL3 is best, followed by X3-45, followed by D4505, followed by G4500. I thought the X3-45 would've gotten much better MPG than the DL3 but it's actually about the same. Of course the 102DL3 seats just knock X3-45 and D4505 seats down the drain.

The X3-45 does get out of the Northeast a lot now, some are based in Dallas, I heard. Every major Greyhound model goes through Dallas now. I'm guessing that X3-45 you saw ran the Dallas-Los Angeles route then got dispatched down for quick return to San Diego before heading back to Dallas. You will notice that Greyhound almost never uses the X3-45 for mountainous routes, just a few hilly routes, but mountainous, no.

By the way, more recent events mean that I will be using the free ticket to Colorado instead. Los Angeles for later in the year, when I have to go to Phoenix. Yeah, I know.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I guess I shouldn't rank buses 1-4, every bus is different. This is probably a better breakdown:

*102DL3*-Very comfortable, highly reliable and durable long-haul bus. Reasonably good ride and efficiency.

*D4505*-Crappy "update" of the 102DL3, not great at all. Does climb and haul luggage better than the X3-45, otherwise worse. Rides worse than 102DL3.

*X3-45*-Very smooth and efficient bus, great for shorter routes, not so great for long routes, not good at climbing.

*G4500*-Cheap modern fiberglass junk. Most "modern" bus Greyhound has, yet bad at everything everywhere.

Drivers did confirm that the D4505 is a "fuel guzzler", so I guess the test results were correct, the D4505 indeed uses about 15% more fuel than the 102DL3. Appalling.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Guess the Van Hool isn't that bad for short routes. Still wouldn't want it for a thousand-mile run though.
> 
> Very rare to see 102DL3's in California. I'm surprised you saw any at all. Perhaps they're gearing up for the transcon runs. The X3-45 isn't _that _great of a bus, low luggage capacity and the wheelbase is too long to climb hills well (lose traction). Also not the most durable, it's durable, but less than the DL3. So I think the 102DL3 is best, followed by X3-45, followed by D4505, followed by G4500. I thought the X3-45 would've gotten much better MPG than the DL3 but it's actually about the same. Of course the 102DL3 seats just knock X3-45 and D4505 seats down the drain.
> 
> The X3-45 does get out of the Northeast a lot now, some are based in Dallas, I heard. Every major Greyhound model goes through Dallas now. I'm guessing that X3-45 you saw ran the Dallas-Los Angeles route then got dispatched down for quick return to San Diego before heading back to Dallas. You will notice that Greyhound almost never uses the X3-45 for mountainous routes, just a few hilly routes, but mountainous, no.
> 
> By the way, more recent events mean that I will be using the free ticket to Colorado instead. Los Angeles for later in the year, when I have to go to Phoenix. Yeah, I know.


In comparing the baggage capacity of the D4505 and the X3-45, the D only has 4 more cubic feet total (517 vs 513) and that is including both underfloor and overhead in non-wheelchair equipped models.....the MCI website spec don't break it down between underfloor and overhead, as the Prevost site does, so hard to compare exactly...

I don't understand your statement that a longer wheelbase yields less traction climbing hills.....how is that?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I heard that longer wheelbase was worse for climbing hills. Anyway, the X3-45 probably isn't good at climbing hills since no one uses it on a mountainous route more than the Adirondack Northway. For fuel efficiency, Greyhound would be ordering only X3-45's and no D4505's, but since the D4505's are mostly doing mountain routes it can be assumed they are better for climbing than the X3-45.

Edit: Basically, I look at it this way, if the D4505 is totally worse than the X3-45, Greyhound would not order it. But Greyhound did order D4505's, and put them on mountainous routes. Greyhound ordered even _more _X3-45's, but didn't put any of them on mountainous routes, instead using them _everywhere_ _without mountains_. The reasonable assumption can be made, that the only reason why Greyhound is ordering D4505's is because they have better mountain performance than X3-45's.

Otherwise, the massive efficiency difference would mean that, no matter how good of a deal MCI gave to Greyhound, Greyhound would still not order D4505's.


----------



## rickycourtney

Again we all know you love the 102DL3... but you've never been on a X3-45 and you're not really giving it a fair shake.

I also don't understand how a longer wheelbase could yield less traction climbing hills. Feel free to cite a reputable source that says a longer wheelbase reduces traction.

I wouldn't exactly say the X3-45 has a "low luggage capacity." Prevost says that the X3-45 has a total underfloor cargo volume of 406 cubic feet (although the wheelchair lift takes up 30 cubic feet) and an overhead storage capacity of 107 cubic feet. Add it all up for 513 cubic feet of total storage capacity. Compare that to the D4505 (and I assume the 102DL3) with 517 cubic feet. So

The X3-45 also has the "largest underfloor surface area in the industry" at 139 square feet and that having a larger surface area means that bags can be stored more efficiently "without the need to stack."

It's also worth mentioning the trade off for the 4 cubic foot reduction in storage capacity... it allows the X3-45 to have the "highest floor-to-ceiling interior height" at 6'8" compared to the D4505 (and I assume the 102DL3) at 6'6". Not a big difference... but it means a lot to a tall guy like me.

Also you've been ripping every new bus for having poor gas milage... saying that's evidence that the older 102DL3 is better. You're neglecting a *VERY IMPORTANT* reason for this. In 2004 (and in 2010) the EPA put new emissions requirements into effect. That means that while these buses are much cleaner... they consume more fuel.

I think the reason Greyhound ordering the X3-45 and the D4505 concurrently was that the company could get new buses faster than if they ordered with a single manufacturer (MCI and Prevost can only crank them out so fast) and that was important as the company worked meet the ADA deadline and improve their public image.

I also think the reason the X3-45 has been so rare on the West Coast is that Greyhound was focusing on improving its image on the more profitable Northeast US... so when the X3-45 buses were brand new they got assigned there... and once they were assigned there (and those maintenance crews became accustomed to them) it was just easier to keep them there.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

A long wheel base can effect performance in rough terrain, by bottoming out the bus and leaving it high and dry with its wheels off the ground... But if your characteristics are such that this can happen, you were a meshugana for bringing any 45' bus into the area to begin with.


----------



## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> A long wheel base can effect performance in rough terrain, by bottoming out the bus and leaving it high and dry with its wheels off the ground... But if your characteristics are such that this can happen, you were a meshugana for bringing any 45' bus into the area to begin with.


Now that makes since... but I highly doubt that Greyhound has that problem when trying to climb mountain passes on interstate highways.


----------



## rickycourtney

Oh I forgot to mention... while in Southern California I saw an Americanos bus... that has now taken my prize for "worst G4500."

Here's the highlights:


One of the baggage doors was being held shut with duct tape... no joke... grey duct tape.
Several of the body panels had been replaced... leaving them blank (so there was just a big white gap in the livery.)
A big haze of black smoke kept pouring out of the back of the bus each time the driver hit the accelerator.
_But here's the best part_... when I drove by the bus the first time the engine door was slightly open and I thought it might have been tied down. But as I exited the freeway I saw the bus drive past and the engine door was fully up.
Pretty shameful that Greyhound let a bus this bad out onto the roadways (even if it doesn't say Greyhound on the side).


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sounds like the old days in Mexico to me! That bus would have been "Delujo Clase" as opposed to Primers Clase, Segundo Clase or the Pollo Autobuses!


----------



## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> The Eagle's, as Swadian has mentioned, did have a wonderful ride...they employed the B F Goodrich "Torsilastic" suspension. Here's a link http://www.giantrvonline.com/chassis/velvet_ride.htm with a description of it. This suspension had a huge amount of travel, and you could roll over a pothole and barely be aware of it. The shock absorber's did have to be replaced when worn, or the coach would bounce excessively. the Eagle could take curves almost like a sports car.. Prior to the Eagle, Flxible highway coaches also employed this suspension. Continental Trailways had a large fleet of Flxible VistaLiner's and HiLevel's, and they liked the suspension so much, that they specified it when their engineers designed the Eagle's built at first by Kassbohrer-Setra in Germany.
> 
> Another nice feature of the suspension, was unlike an air-ride, the coach, as it aged, did not develop air leaks and consequently bottom-out when shut down overnight and take several minutes of running to rise back to running height...


That's very interesting stuff on Eagles. As for the Flxibles, I've heard of those highway coaches having the same suspension.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

There is some things to keep in mind. For starters, Greyhound's bus fleet today is a shadow of it's former self. Greyhound's fleet isn't even half of what it was back 20+ years ago. The 102-DL3s represent half the fleet, while the other half is a mix of D4505s, G4500s, and Prevost X3-45s. 

That's pretty much what I have to say about the subject on why the DL3s are still running for Greyhound versus past coaches like MC-7/8/9/12s and 102A3s. Also, I can bet the mileage on some coaches weren't the same back then either.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.

Also, the 102DL3 has the most interior height in the industry, 82", the X3-45 has 80", the D4505 at 78.25". I have the spec sheets to back that up, so don't even try to challenge it.

And as for EPA, how the hell is a bus supposed to be cleaner when it uses more fuel? Sure, maybe there's less emissions, but the long-term environmental impact is that you used more of a limited, unrenewable resource: diesel. So, the D4505 is crap. The X3-45 is not crap. The 102DL3 is not crap.

Ricky, I have taken all the bus models in discussion right now. You have not taken the 102DL3, I presume. You have never taken Greyhound. So you are not in the position to say that the 102DL3 is worse than the X3-45, especially when multiple Greyhound drivers have told me it is "undoubtedly" superior, both to the X3-45 and the D4505, due to its unmatched 30-year/3,000,000-mile service life, and ease of maintenance.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

If I were to add from a passenger perspective, I do find the 102DL3 the best as well, which is why it is my favorite bus. The spacious interior (82x102") gives it a "train feel" that none of the newer buses have. Also, it has a quieter HVAC than the newer buses. And it does not tilt as much as the D4505, much better for sleeping, seems to "sit on the road" very well. Lastly, the 102DL3 has the best seats, most recline (55-degree actual measurement), and most legroom (16") of all the Greyhound coaches.

Now you ask, how come the 102DL3 has more legroom than the D4505? Because the 102DL3 has recurve seat backs, while the D4505 has flat seat backs, like Amtrak seat backs.

Also, you ask, how comes those Patriot PT's in the DL3 recline so much? I don't know exactly why, but multiple actual measurements indeed show 55 degrees of recline.

As for a technical aspect, the 102DL3 has the biggest air intake and dual fans, so you can get more air in and get hot air out, always good for any engine. The result is that the 102DL3 is the fastest Greyhound and possibly the fastest 45-footer bus on the road.

Got any more to say?

Edit: Frankly, Ricky, "a tall guy like you" should be the one supporting the 102DL3, while perhaps a "below average height" guy like me should be supporting another model. This feels weird.


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## Green Maned Lion

We aren't arguing your preference. We are arguing your 'my preference is I refutable fact' stance.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.


Just a minor correction, Swadian....We do not have X3-45's in any of the Trailways of New York fleets. We have the predecessor model, the XL-II......


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Who told you I have never been on a X3-45? I've actually been on two. One on Adirondack Trailways, Railiner's company, from Montreal to New York, and one on Greyhound, from Philadelphia to New York.


I stand corrected. My apologies.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, the 102DL3 has the most interior height in the industry, 82", the X3-45 has 80", the D4505 at 78.25". I have the spec sheets to back that up, so don't even try to challenge it.


Sure. I'd love to see them. How the hell did the 102DL3 have 4" more headroom... smaller baggage compartments?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> And as for EPA, how the hell is a bus supposed to be cleaner when it uses more fuel? Sure, maybe there's less emissions, but the long-term environmental impact is that you used more of a limited, unrenewable resource: diesel. So, the D4505 is crap. The X3-45 is not crap. The 102DL3 is not crap.


As I understand it... because the emissions systems "choke" the engine, they need to work harder to make the same amount of energy.
As an aside, King County Metro bought a bunch of hybrid buses right after the 2004 requirement went into effect. The hybrid buses with the 2004 engines turned out to be just as fuel hungry as the pre-2004 buses. Here's an interesting article on the problem.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ricky, I have taken all the bus models in discussion right now. You have not taken the 102DL3, I presume. You have never taken Greyhound. So you are not in the position to say that the 102DL3 is worse than the X3-45, especially when multiple Greyhound drivers have told me it is "undoubtedly" superior, both to the X3-45 and the D4505, due to its unmatched 30-year/3,000,000-mile service life, and ease of maintenance.


Wrong. I have taken several 102DL3's and while I have not taken a bus with Greyhound painted on the side... I've taken plenty of intercity buses including ones operated by Greyhound, using buses maintained by Greyhound and driven by Greyhound... I fail to see what could possibly be different (except the passengers inside.)
Also, I never said "102DL3 is worse than the X3-45" as a matter of fact I think they're both solid buses (I also happen to think the D4505 is a solid bus too... and I agree the G4500 and C2045 are mostly crap.)



Swadian Hardcore said:


> If I were to add from a passenger perspective, I do find the 102DL3 the best as well, which is why it is my favorite bus. The spacious interior (82x102") gives it a "train feel" that none of the newer buses have.


For comparison an Amfleet car is 100x126"... so it's significantly smaller than a train car.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, it has a quieter HVAC than the newer buses. And it does not tilt as much as the D4505, much better for sleeping, seems to "sit on the road" very well. Lastly, the 102DL3 has the best seats, most recline (55-degree actual measurement), and most legroom (16") of all the Greyhound coaches.
> 
> Now you ask, how come the 102DL3 has more legroom than the D4505? Because the 102DL3 has recurve seat backs, while the D4505 has flat seat backs, like Amtrak seat backs.
> 
> Also, you ask, how comes those Patriot PT's in the DL3 recline so much? I don't know exactly why, but multiple actual measurements indeed show 55 degrees of recline.


I understand this is a thread on Greyhound... but you do realize that the seats are purchased separately from the bus, right? Greyhound made the decision to buy the Premier seats and they have made the decision to keep buying them. They could have easily switched back to Amaya's newer seats the Torino or the A-2TEN both of which I think are vastly more comfortable (on par with the Patriot) and both have seatbelts (which the Patriot does not).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> As for a technical aspect, the 102DL3 has the biggest air intake and dual fans, so you can get more air in and get hot air out, always good for any engine. The result is that the 102DL3 is the fastest Greyhound and possibly the fastest 45-footer bus on the road.


Well it certainly has a massive engine grille in the back... there's no denying that... but for the record the D4505 also has dual radiator fans.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.


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## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.


Well first off it's worth noting that the J4500 is the best-selling motorcoach in America.

That being said... it's really designed for use by charter operators, not for commuter services operated by a public transit agency.

Something to understand... both MCI and Prevost make two different models of their motorcoaches.

One designed for the tour/charter market (MCI's J series and Prevost's H series) that tend to have a more modern design and more features (TV's, iPod hookups, wireless microphones for a tour guide).

The other model is designed for the line-haul market (MCI's D series and Prevost's X series) that tend to be more durable in heavy service.

Both companies offer specialized versions of these buses (the D4500CT/D4000CT and the X3-45 Commuter Coach) for the commuter/transit market that have a few tweaks that make them better on routes that make several stops in a central business district (larger destination signs, bi-parting entrance doors).

Does that mean that a transit agency can't use a J4500 on a commuter route? No. But there are better choices.

As far as the 102DL3... that specific model isn't being produced anymore (the D4500CT is a very close cousin) so it's a moot point arguing for it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll explain why the 102DL3 is my favorite bus later. Don't have the time right now. Sorry about saying that you have never ridden a 102DL3. But the current D4505 does not have dual radiator fans, it has a single radiator fan. At least Greyhound's version does, I saw it once with the hatches open. It's a big fan but without a big grille you basically defeated the purpose. The original D4505 did have the same air intake as the 102DL3.

Anyway, Greyhound's D4505 rides far worse than the 102DL3. Don't know why, it just tilts like crazy. I looked through Amaya's sales brochures and the Patriot PT/Torino VIP are both available with seats belts. Both these seats are better than the A2-TEN or Torino Standard, IMO, but feel free to disagree.

Since I don't like Amtrak it's kinda pointless to compare, but I just said the 102DL3 is a suitable substitute for an Amtrak train. So I would pay the same price to ride either, and the difference would come down to schedules and timing. We've argued about that already, let's just not argue more.

Why don't I like the D4505? Tilts too much for one, loud HVAC for two, high fuel consumption for three, and slow speed for last. Again, things I've said before. However, I really like the D4500CL/CT, almost as smooth as a X3-45 but it's got the 3,000,000-mile lifetime just like the 102DL3 or MC-9. Prevost hardcore fan Derek (co-host of GTE) told me that Prevost's top out at 1,500,000 miles active duty. Remember, I've not even a MCI hardcore fan anymore, I've bashing the D4505 and J4500 all the time.

If MCI hadn't raised the deck of the D4500 for the D4505, it wouldn't tilt so much, but would have less luggage capacity. Or they could extend the wheelbase, but the D already turns like a battleship. The D has a very strong suspension, much stronger than any other bus, but it turns very poorly. Can't have the best of both.

I've found out why Greyhound ordered the D4505: it lasts longer than the X3-45. The X3-45 is solid, even very solid, just not 30-year/3-million-mile solid, it's not platform integral semi-monocoque (PISM). Not saying the D4505 is better, just saying it does have an advantage that keep it in the market: durability and ease of maintenance. Heard directly from mechanics.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder how the J4500s are compared to the D4505 or 102DL3? Lynx has a J4500 demo. It's a 2014 demo and for once it's not owned by someone other then MCI themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off it's worth noting that the J4500 is the best-selling motorcoach in America.
> 
> That being said... it's really designed for use by charter operators, not for commuter services operated by a public transit agency.
> 
> Something to understand... both MCI and Prevost make two different models of their motorcoaches.
> 
> One designed for the tour/charter market (MCI's J series and Prevost's H series) that tend to have a more modern design and more features (TV's, iPod hookups, wireless microphones for a tour guide).
> 
> The other model is designed for the line-haul market (MCI's D series and Prevost's X series) that tend to be more durable in heavy service.
> 
> Both companies offer specialized versions of these buses (the D4500CT/D4000CT and the X3-45 Commuter Coach) for the commuter/transit market that have a few tweaks that make them better on routes that make several stops in a central business district (larger destination signs, bi-parting entrance doors).
> 
> Does that mean that a transit agency can't use a J4500 on a commuter route? No. But there are better choices.
> 
> As far as the 102DL3... that specific model isn't being produced anymore (the D4500CT is a very close cousin) so it's a moot point arguing for it.
Click to expand...

Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, I just found out the X3-45 you spotted in So Cal was probably an Americanos X3-45. They are painted the exact same as the Greyhound X3-45's except for lettering. Americanos got X3-45's to replace their beat-up Marcopolo and Dina buses, presumably including the G4500. Those X3-45's are based from Los Angeles, El Paso, and Dallas, I believe, with 60500-series numbers and they don't have Greyhound's tags or "TEXAS APPORTIONED" license plates.

Edit: By the way, I am blocking GML and CJ so I will not respond to them and I will not see their posts. Please don't quote them.


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## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.


Huh. That's strange. I guess the J4500 could work on that... but again I don't think it would be ideal in daily service like that.

Do you know why they wouldn't just use one of the D4500CT motorcoaches? I would think it would be easier to run a uniform fleet.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understood. The J4500s are being considered for a specific route that only makes two stops and mostly uses the Turnpike. As for the motorcoaches we're getting, they're going to be diesel D4500CTs with ISX engines.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. That's strange. I guess the J4500 could work on that... but again I don't think it would be ideal in daily service like that.
> 
> Do you know why they wouldn't just use one of the D4500CT motorcoaches? I would think it would be easier to run a uniform fleet.
Click to expand...

I have a feeling it has to do with the fact they want the coaches with lavatories for that route. I don't know if commuter coaches can be spec'd with lavatories, but that's all I know. The J4500s are also being leased to Lynx for a few years, but Mears will be operating those coaches.


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## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> I have a feeling it has to do with the fact they want the coaches with lavatories for that route. I don't know if commuter coaches can be spec'd with lavatories, but that's all I know. The J4500s are also being leased to Lynx for a few years, but Mears will be operating those coaches.


Yeah you can order the D4500CT/D4000CT with a lavatory.

The way you describe the situation... do you know if Mears may actually be leasing the coaches themselves as a part of the contract? That's pretty normal in the transportation industry.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'll explain why the 102DL3 is my favorite bus later. Don't have the time right now. Sorry about saying that you have never ridden a 102DL3.


Don't worry. We all know why it's your favorite bus... no need to explain again.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> But the current D4505 does not have dual radiator fans, it has a single radiator fan. At least Greyhound's version does, I saw it once with the hatches open. It's a big fan but without a big grille you basically defeated the purpose. The original D4505 did have the same air intake as the 102DL3.


Here's a shot of a D4505 showing the dual radiator fans. One is definitely bigger than the other, but there are two fans.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I looked through Amaya's sales brochures and the Patriot PT/Torino VIP are both available with seats belts. Both these seats are better than the A2-TEN or Torino Standard, IMO, but feel free to disagree.


The seatbelts offered for the Patriot are the bolt on, lap belt type. The new FMVSS rules require lap and shoulder belts on all motorcoaches built after 2016. Unless the Patriot can be modified to have lap and shoulder belts... it won't be used in new US coaches anymore. Honestly I don't think it will since the Torino standard is a VERY similar seat except that it has an optional integral lap and shoulder belt and an adjustable headrest (which is an additional cost option on the Patriot.)

Don't get me wrong... I think the Patriot is a great seat, I just think that the A2-TEN and the Torino are great seats too. Frankly, all three of those seats are a heck of a lot more comfortable than the Premier LS Greyhound has been buying.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why don't I like the D4505? Tilts too much for one, loud HVAC for two, high fuel consumption for three, and slow speed for last. Again, things I've said before.


As an aside... loud HVAC systems seems to be an industry wide thing. Here in Seattle our newer buses have air conditioning (which is very nice on a warm day) but when they're running it's nearly-deafeningly loud. I don't get it.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> However, I really like the D4500CL/CT, almost as smooth as a X3-45 but it's got the 3,000,000-mile lifetime just like the 102DL3 or MC-9. Prevost hardcore fan Derek (co-host of GTE) told me that Prevost's top out at 1,500,000 miles active duty. Remember, I've not even a MCI hardcore fan anymore, I've bashing the D4505 and J4500 all the time.
> 
> If MCI hadn't raised the deck of the D4500 for the D4505, it wouldn't tilt so much, but would have less luggage capacity. Or they could extend the wheelbase, but the D already turns like a battleship. The D has a very strong suspension, much stronger than any other bus, but it turns very poorly. Can't have the best of both.
> 
> I've found out why Greyhound ordered the D4505: it lasts longer than the X3-45. The X3-45 is solid, even very solid, just not 30-year/3-million-mile solid, it's not platform integral semi-monocoque (PISM). Not saying the D4505 is better, just saying it does have an advantage that keep it in the market: durability and ease of maintenance. Heard directly from mechanics.


Before the refurbishment program most of Greyhound's 102DL3's had around 15 years/1.5 million miles on them... and they were looking and running pretty bad. ABC companies gutted those coaches down to the frame, made any repairs, refurnished the engines and seats to like-new condition. That's why they might make 30 years/3 million miles now. If they hadn't been refurbished... I guess they *MIGHT* have made it... but I shudder to think how bad they would have looked.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ricky, I just found out the X3-45 you spotted in So Cal was probably an Americanos X3-45. They are painted the exact same as the Greyhound X3-45's except for lettering. Americanos got X3-45's to replace their beat-up Marcopolo and Dina buses, presumably including the G4500. Those X3-45's are based from Los Angeles, El Paso, and Dallas, I believe, with 60500-series numbers and they don't have Greyhound's tags or "TEXAS APPORTIONED" license plates.


Those Americanos buses look like this. The bus I saw was definitely a Greyhound X3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Attached a photo of a Jefferson D4505 rear. Only one radiator fan. Also, why do you think the DL3's were running bad the few years before the rebuilds? They were still serving Greyhound's whole network due to the incompetent G4500 and they had heavily deferred maintenance.

MCI advertises their buses as the strongest in the world. Prevost conveniently avoid mentioning durability in their sales brochure. Sounds weird to me. Also, most people agree Prevosts are not as strong as MCI's. The other thing is that the X3-45 has panoramic windows. A bus owner told me panoramic windows require expensive, frequent replacement compared to flat windows. Also, rimmed windows are tougher that rimless windows. Finally, many drivers have said the 102DL3 is the best bus ever built.

Edit: The attachment failed. Go to Flickr and search "Jefferson Lines 2009 Engine Compartment". The same thing I saw on the Greyhound. I found out the D4505 with dual radiators was EPA 2007, not EPA 2010.

Even though the photo says it is a 2009, if you look at the next photo in the photostream, you'll see the builder's plate which says it was built in 2011.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I took a look at Orleans Express' roster, a major Prevost operator. They have already retired their 2005 and 2006(?) XL-II's. I don't know the 2006 units are XL-II's or X3-45's. Also, anything built before 2006 has been retired already. For example, look at the attached photo of Orleans Express 5604, a 2006 Prevost, already retired.

I also heard on GTE that Greyhound's and BoltBus' early X3-45's are going for an overhaul. That includes the 2007-2009 units. Doesn't sound particularly durable to me.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Finally, many drivers have said the 102DL3 is the best bus ever built..


That's probably because the ones you asked aren't old enough to have driven the General Motors PD-4106....my personal all-time favorite.


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## Green Maned Lion

The length a bus has been in service does not intrinsically imply it's durability. The cheapest solution to capital equipment is not always to run it into the ground.


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## Caesar La Rock

Anyway... I neglected to mention, Greyhound has some brand new X3-45s at the Orlando terminal, but I don't know the road numbers of those units. Speaking of that, what caused Greyhound to cancel the D4505 order anyway? I was surprised to hear the order had been canceled. The advertisement for the D4505s that Greyhound had on order was removed from MCI's website.


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## Green Maned Lion

Id guess they are satisfied with the prevost


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## railiner

THE CJ said:


> Anyway... I neglected to mention, Greyhound has some brand new X3-45s at the Orlando terminal, but I don't know the road numbers of those units. Speaking of that, what caused Greyhound to cancel the D4505 order anyway? I was surprised to hear the order had been canceled. The advertisement for the D4505s that Greyhound had on order was removed from MCI's website.


You have got me intrigued with that question....I have not been following that, nor have I heard anything on it....I'll try to inquire from my contacts here, if they can spread any light on that subject.

I will say that the owner of my company, is not impressed with the three D4505's that the state has provided for our use....not enough to order any, nor even try the latest J4500 model. We had some issues with our last order of J's, years ago, that caused him to get away from MCI's......

It's not a good sign for MCI, when company's like ours, which was one of the very first non-Greyhound, American companies to purchase the MC-7 when they were first made available for open purchase, and remained loyal to MCI for a long time.


----------



## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> Anyway... I neglected to mention, Greyhound has some brand new X3-45s at the Orlando terminal, but I don't know the road numbers of those units. Speaking of that, what caused Greyhound to cancel the D4505 order anyway? I was surprised to hear the order had been canceled. The advertisement for the D4505s that Greyhound had on order was removed from MCI's website.


I wasn't aware that Greyhound cancelled any orders from MCI. The last order they made was in early 2013 when they ordered 130 D4505 buses at the same time as they ordered 90 X3-45 buses from Prevost.

Greyhound followed that order up with another order for 55 X3-45 buses in 2014.

According to all records I can find online, all of these buses have been delivered and Greyhound has no more buses on order at this point.


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## rickycourtney

Okay hypothetical scenario…
You're in charge of purchasing 200 buses for Greyhound (or another bus line)... what model would you buy?
What features would you include?
What kind of seating would it have?

My only requirement it has to be a *brand new* bus (not refurbished) and something currently on the market (no fantasy models).


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## Green Maned Lion

The Mercedes-Benz Travego. If that doesn't qualify than the Setra S417.


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## railiner

I would have to do a more thorough study before making that decision, but offhand, would probably go with what they are currently buying....the Prevost X3-45....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I would buy the MCI D4500CL with Amaya-Astron Torino VIP seating with three-point seat belts, 46 passenger capacity, Detroit Diesel Series 13 engine, Allison B500 transmission with Jacobs Engine Brake, Michelin XZA2 Energy tires, Wi-Fi router, power outlets, extra-extra legroom, enclosed parcel racks, Blaupunkt TV's, improved Amerax fire-suppression, hand-free radio system, parcel rack air-conditioning, sedan doors, stainless-steel flanks, and stainless-steel restroom module with running water. And yes, if I ever have a bus company, that is exactly what I would buy, unless MCI can come up with something better than the D4500CL, and I would happily compete against GML's Travego and run him into bankruptcy.


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## Green Maned Lion

Pfui. Or vice versa.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I had to go on an emergency trip to Sacramento so I'm in Sacramento right now. Yesterday I rode 2013 MCI D4504 #86544 from Reno to Sacramento, with trainee driver Loewy, who got lost in Roseville due to road works. Our bus had quite a full load and tomorrow Greyhound will be adding an additional daily frequency on the Reno-San Francisco route.

I saw new Greyhound Express branding in Reno, which will begin service tomorrow, it is applied to Gate 4. So now we have gate assignments by destination. Here they are:

Gate 1-Spare gate/Extra sections

Gate 2-Salt Lake City, Denver

Gate 3-San Francisco (local)

Gate 4-San Francisco (express)

Spotting at Reno yesterday:

2013 MCI D4505 #86544 at Gate 3A, to San Francisco (my bus).

2013 MCI D4505 #86533 at Gate 3B, to No Destination.

2010 MCI D4505 #86312 at Gate 4A, to No Destination.

2002 MCI-Dina G4500 Rehab #7191 at Gate 2A, to Denver.

2000 MCI 102DL# #6398 at the Ready Lot, to No Destination.

Spotting at Sacramento yesterday:

2013 MCI D4505 #86544, to San Francisco.

2013 MCI D4505 #86514, to Portland.

2006 MCI D4505 #60544 (Americanos), to Los Angeles.

1999 MCI 102DL3 #6334, to No Destination.

Unknown MCI D4505, to Reno.

#86544 was the worst D4505 I have ever ridden, rough ride and loud Cummins ISX12, though I do not know if that is due to Loewy's driving skills (not the greatest). He also opened up the rear hatches before boarding, allowing me to get three shots of the engine in action, that will prove Greyhound's D4505 only has one radiator fan. #7191 was the first rehabbed G4500 I've seen. After a walk around the bus, it seems to be in good condition, took a peek inside from the driver's window and it still had the same old Amaya Brasil (not Brazil) seats. Seems very similar to J4500. Not great but at least it's going to be comfier than a D4505. Would I happily ride it to Denver? Uh, the initial though is "no", but then again, I'm Swadian Hardcore, I take risks, and I'm adventurous. So, if I go to board Sked 1314 a few weeks from now, and I see a blue G4500, I'll just step aboard, take a seat, and see what happens. I will try to have no whining or fretting in my thoughts, even though it is a 23-hour ride.

Greyhound has put 100th Anniversary shields on the R1 windows of #86544 and #86312, I'm thinking the entire fleet will soon have them.


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## Caesar La Rock

If I were forced to pick 200 new buses being the current model, I would choose X3-45s. Why these buses and not anything else, well Greyhound already has more than 300+ of these coaches with more still arriving.

It makes sense to standardize the fleet with one model instead of having different models all at once. As for what seats and amenities will be on these buses, pretty much the same that's on all of Greyhound's existing fleet of X3-45s.


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## rickycourtney

So personally I would go with the X3-45 as well. I like the D4500CT but it would require so many modifications to make it right for this service (more modifications, more potential problems.)

I would go with black leather Torino VIP seats with the "airline style food tray" (nice place for people to put their laptop and other electronic gadgets), center armrests, magazine pockets and three-point seat belts. I'd equip the bus with Wi-Fi (including Greyhound's awesome BLUE system), power outlets, enclosed parcel racks (looks sharp, less falling objects) and stainless-steel restroom with a flushing toilet and a running water hand sink.

A couple of crazy ideas... I'd like to see the overhead racks get lighted "Keep Seat Belt Fastened" signs and the lavatory get a lighted "Return to Seat" sign like on airplanes. I would make it part of the drivers job to turn on the sign when pulling off the highway and onto city streets and when the bus is in heavy traffic. You could also make the light controlled by the speed of the bus, anything under 45 could illuminate it.

I also like the idea of having overhead TV's... but I wouldn't use them to play movies (especially on Gryehound). Instead I would want it connected to a GPS driven automatic announcement system. The idea would be to play a safety video as the bus departs a major city, while enroute show a map of the buses location, announce when you are approaching the next stop, give some information about where you're traveling through and play some limited advertising (including announcements about the features of the bus.) That would take some of the workload off the driver and insure consistency when it comes to announcements. I would turn the monitor screens off after dark (except to announce when you are approaching the next stop.)


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> So personally I would go with the X3-45 as well. I like the D4500CT but it would require so many modifications to make it right for this service (more modifications, more potential problems.)
> 
> I would go with black leather Torino VIP seats with the "airline style food tray" (nice place for people to put their laptop and other electronic gadgets), center armrests, magazine pockets and three-point seat belts. I'd equip the bus with Wi-Fi (including Greyhound's awesome BLUE system), power outlets, enclosed parcel racks (looks sharp, less falling objects) and stainless-steel restroom with a flushing toilet and a running water hand sink.
> 
> A couple of crazy ideas... I'd like to see the overhead racks get lighted "Keep Seat Belt Fastened" signs and the lavatory get a lighted "Return to Seat" sign like on airplanes. I would make it part of the drivers job to turn on the sign when pulling off the highway and onto city streets and when the bus is in heavy traffic. You could also make the light controlled by the speed of the bus, anything under 45 could illuminate it.
> 
> I also like the idea of having overhead TV's... but I wouldn't use them to play movies (especially on Gryehound). Instead I would want it connected to a GPS driven automatic announcement system. The idea would be to play a safety video as the bus departs a major city, while enroute show a map of the buses location, announce when you are approaching the next stop, give some information about where you're traveling through and play some limited advertising (including announcements about the features of the bus.) That would take some of the workload off the driver and insure consistency when it comes to announcements. I would turn the monitor screens off after dark (except to announce when you are approaching the next stop.)


You've got some nice idea's there....

As for which choice on the basic coach, I'm sure the analyst's at GL and parent FirstGroup will choose which is ultimately the best choice. Now that the "crisis" of ADA compliance seems to have been met, it will be interesting on what they will order in the future, when not under fire....


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## rickycourtney

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on a refurbished G4500. Did you snap any pictures of the interior?

So considering tomorrow is the start of the new Greyhound schedule I'm interested to see what kind of equipment we will see in Seattle. 8 buses a day will either be traveling to or arriving from Los Angeles and with California's ban on pre-2007 large diesel engines (without a diesel particulate filter) that prevents Greyhound from using the 102DL3 or the G4500 on these routes. That means we are gonna be seeing a lot more of the newer D4500 buses up here or maybe even the X3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I actually saw a rebuilt 102DL3 in Sacramento on Monday (#6334) along with an old Americanos D4505, both are pre-2007. I'm assuming the buses both have DPF's. At least Greyhound should have installed a DPF when they rebuilt the 102DL3. However, I do not expect to see any more G4500's in California, since they are apparently not rebuilt.

I snapped a bunch of shots all around the blue G4500 but couldn't go inside. I did look inside through the front windows, and seems to be clean and comfortable. It's clean for sure, the entire bus is clean and did not have any cracks. A few little white blemishes on the bumper, to be expected, they're so tiny that I didn't see them in person, but saw them after looking through my shots. Tires, wheel hubs, all are in great shape. Can't see anything wrong with it, but of course it is still fiberglass. Unfortunately, I cannot upload photos right now, because my PC cannot accommodate my memory stick. Have to wait until I get back to Reno. But yeah, I think it was probably the cleanest bus in Reno that day, everything was clean but the G4500 was the cleanest, it even reflected the station fixtures clearly.

No X3-45's at all. I still doubt Greyhound will use them in the West, the westernmost X3-45 base is Dallas Garage. I'm thinking the D4505's will hold down the north-south routes throughout the West, also short hauls to Reno, Las Vegas, Mexicali, etc., combined with the various Americanos buses which are still on Americanos schedules (9000's). Seattle will likely see D4505's on the Los Angeles runs and G4500/H3-45 on the other runs. The former Sacramento-Portland was a D4505 on Monday, I think it was always a D4505 up until its cancellation today in favor of Los Angeles through runs. It was packed with passengers, the line stretched across the entire Sacramento Terminal.

The Americanos D4505 in Sacramento was on 9303 Sacramento-Los Angeles, definitely an Americanos sked. Sorry, no photos from SAC, already got in trouble with Security once, don't need it twice.

Overall, I'd say Greyhound's doing the right thing at least, except for the sagging Premier LS and the photography ban (which is rarely enforced).

By the way, you'll probably not see D4500's in Seattle, they are the exact same thing as the 102DL3. I think you meant the D4505.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> However, I do not expect to see any more G4500's in California, since they are apparently not rebuilt.
> 
> Seattle will likely see D4505's on the Los Angeles runs and G4500/H3-45 on the other runs.


Funny you should say that. The inaugural schedule 1431 from Vancouver to Los Angeles was actually being operated by a G4500. Maybe they're okay to run in California? I don't fully understand my beloved home state's wacky emissions rules.

I also spotted #6670, one of Greyhound's H3-45 units on schedule 6901 (Stanfield, OR - Seattle, WA). It has been repainted into the new blue livery and it looks really sharp. Couldn't tell if the interior had been upgraded to leather seating (the door did have the icons for legroom, outlets & Wi-Fi.)




Here's all my spottings today:

#7221 Blue G4500 (1431 Vancouver, BC - Los Angeles)

#6670 Blue H3-45 (6901 Stanfield, OR - Seattle)

#86531 D4505 (not sure the exact schedule, headsign said "Seattle" and it arrived around 12:50, may have been a second section for 6504 running nonstop from Portland.)

#86520 D4505 (6504 Portland - Seattle)

Oh and big news! Greyhound has introduced a smartphone app for BoltBus (finally!) and they are now doing eticketing. I snapped a picture of the driver lifting tickets with his smartphone (looks like an iPhone). In this picture he's showing a passenger how to hold their phone so he can scan it. It's my understanding that BoltBus is testing the new eTicketing system before it's rolled out systemwide to Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

What? A G4500? I guess they are allowed in California after all. But you said you saw Schedule 6504? That is not on the latest timetable. Which means the schedules could be still operating as the previous timetable until everything gets set up. #86531 could have been a delayed Sked 1431 from Vancouver, then #7221 takes over from Seattle to Portland, before another D4505 continues to Sacramento. That's how it used to run before the new timetable.

Yes, that H3-45 sure is looking sharp! I hear they are actually quite reliable, just not fast at all. Maybe Greyhound should try out a few for routes that need the luggage capacity, but aren't very demanding for speed. Perfect for Seattle Garage because the speed limits aren't that high and the "cool looks" could convince more passengers back to Greyhound after the G4500 debacle. I hear from Keegan, a Seattle driver, that #6670 does have the "leatherette seat covers", but retains the old seats from Coach America.

Would not mind riding any of these Seattle coaches now. Sure, some of the D4505's ride bad and are very loud, but they are still clean and don't smell like burning plastic (old G4500). The blue G4500's are so clean I don't think they would smell like burning plastic anymore, either. The reason some still consider them "sh*t" is probably because of the fiberglass construction and other design aspects. Just like the J4500, blue G4500's probably still unreliable, but it doesn't smell bad, and it's not dangerous, they apparently fixed the "detaching axles" problem.

Edit: Hmm, actually, #86531 could have been an extra section for 1431.


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## Caesar La Rock

Ricky, nice pic there of that H3-45. I heard Greyhound also has Van Hools for charter runs. I saw a picture of a Van Hool T2145 in Greyhound's blue livery on Flickr. As far as loud motorcoaches go, this had to have been the loudest new coach I've ever filmed or photographed. This is the new Van Hool CX45 with a DD13 engine in it.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> By the way, you'll probably not see D4500's in Seattle, they are the exact same thing as the 102DL3. I think you meant the D4505.


You're right that was a typo... I meant D4505. But we do see D4500's here in Seattle all the time. As a matter of fact, I rode a D4500CL to Tacoma yesterday.







Sound Transit Route 594 runs half-hourly service (more frequent during rush hour) between Seattle, Tacoma and Lakewood. Reasonably comfortable seats with a little legroom for the 1 hour ride... but no place to put my Starbucks! Also, no WiFi and no power outlets.

I also considered taking Greyhound for one leg of the trip, but the schedule didn't work out for me (I'd still like to do it another time).

I posted a little trip report here: Taking Transit to Tacoma.


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, I'm heading back to Reno tomorrow. Finally got this cr*p in Sacramento done. My D4505 rides are pretty much getting worse and worse. Hopefully I can try out a D4505 with the H engine tomorrow, the Detroit 60 with EGR. Ugh, Cummins ISX12 sucks.

That D4500CL looks quite uncomfortable, seats look like American Seating 2095 with plastic covers. UTA has nice D4500's in Salt Lake City with Wi-Fi too, but I've never used the Wi-Fi. I rode Route 811 which was a nearly-empty D4500CT #7082, took the shotgun seat by the old driver. On the layover at Sandy he just played games on a console. Never seen a driver doing that. The ride was very smooth and quiet, just like a 102DL3, compared to the annoying D4505's. That's why I like the D4500CL/CT. Too bad I didn't any good photos on UTA.

By the way, on #86544, the engine was so loud you could not hear the HVAC at all, which used to be the worst sound of the D4505. But the HVAC apparently malfunctioned, it was steaming hot at boarding, only got better about 20 minutes or so into the trip. I have no praises for this bus at all, it was clean and had good legroom, but that's Greyhound's arrangement, not the MCI D4505.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That D4500CL looks quite uncomfortable, seats look like American Seating 2095 with plastic covers.


They weren't the most comfortable seats I've sat in. Just like the American Seating Premier they were fine for an hour or so. Anything more than that wouldn't be fun.

Some of Sound Transit's newer buses (like the New Flyer DE60LFR) have Patriot PT seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I looked up Sound Transit Interiors on Flickr, are you sure they have Patriot PT seats? How the heck did they get Patriot PT seats into a transit bus?


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## Caesar La Rock

Does anyone know what road numbers are on the new D4505s and Prevost X3-45s?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I looked up Sound Transit Interiors on Flickr, are you sure they have Patriot PT seats? How the heck did they get Patriot PT seats into a transit bus?


They definitely do. Here's a shot of them on Flickr: https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/zheistand/6717577013/in/set-72157629165974141/Remember these seats might look a little different than Greyhound's Patriot PT seats (this bus was built in 2010).

This flickr user has lots of pictures showing interiors of different Sound Transit buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks, yeah, that's the same guy's album I found but had trouble finding Patriot PT. They do look quite different from Greyhound's Patriot PT, Greyhound's is more curved around the angles. The bottom of Greyhound's has a curved footrest too.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks, yeah, that's the same guy's album I found but had trouble finding Patriot PT. They do look quite different from Greyhound's Patriot PT, Greyhound's is more curved around the angles. The bottom of Greyhound's has a curved footrest too.


These seats are a lot newer than Greyhound's... and Amaya has updated the design over the years so that's why they look different. The Patriot PT seats are very comfortable on these buses (which can rattle quite a bit at freeway speeds). The seats also have that curved footrest and they recline a bit. But of the 56 seats on these buses, only 24 are Patriot PT... the rest are bench seats (with extra plush padding), folding jump seats or the weird quasi-bucket seats in the articulation.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well yeah, now you know why every Greyhound rider is always going to biased about the 102DL3: Because they have the most comfortable seats with extra legroom to boot, and a fast, smooth, quiet ride.

I'm back in Reno now and I came home on #86316, a 2010 MCI D4505, with the Detroit 60-H EGR engine. Aw man, so much better than #86544! Almost missed the bus due to events in Downtown Sacramento causing detours, but I got on the bus and found the seat pair right behind the driver empty. No empty seat pairs unless I went really far back, the bus was packed with people because I was riding Schedule 8308, with connecting service to SLC, Denver, and beyond. Used to make an extra stop in Truckee, with the new schedule, that is no more. Cab ride time!

The "Tough Guy" air freshener was not active in the lavatory, which I used before departure. I saw the air freshener in #86544, it was also on this bus. But the bus didn't smell bad at all, smelled just like outside air, restroom (aka lavatory), smelled just like a restroom, not a great smell but not bad either, restroom clean and undamaged. Bus departed while I was in the restroom, heard the beeping and the turbo, got thrown around as the bus started backing and again as it pulled forward. But not rough anymore after we cleared the terminal maneuvers.

Now the Premier LS still sucks, but at least Seat #2 right behind the driver did not sag. Ride was much smoother and quieter than the other bus. Only a tiny bit rougher than the X3-45, IIRC, about the same as the 102DL3. After pulling out of the terminal of course (noting myself thrown around the lavatory). Driver made an extra stop in Colfax, said he needed to use the restroom. Saw him smoking outside with a bearded passenger. Still made it to Reno on-time.

Very skilled driver, though apparently he made an effort to act like a villain from a spy film. He was a square-set middle-aged white man with a clean-shaven head (very clean shaven indeed!), no facial hair, a pair of sunglasses, and a very tidy Greyhound uniform with leather shoes. Yeah, you should've him, didn't look like much of a bus driver, more like Telly Savalas as "Ernst Blofeld"! Also, he forgot to make announcements out of Sacramento, but for some reason many passengers used the seat belts anyway and there was no smoking or bad, loud behavior on the bus at all. Maybe I missed the announcements while I was being thrown around the restroom. :giggle:

In conclusion, I'll just say the D4505 is a really inconsistent bus compared to the 102DL3. The 86300-series seems much superior to the 86500-series. The bus to Denver today was D4505 #86334 with a HUGE "100 YEARS" badge, wouldn't be so bad riding it to Denver if not for the Premier LS. Also saw #7111, a rehabbed G4500 in Lot. Probably tomorrow's morning departure to Salt Lake City? Sorry, not much photos from the Reno Terminal, other than the highly-decorated #6334. But lots of photos from my "cab ride" in #86316!

Attached a sample photo to keep you guys occupied before I upload to Flickr. Good thing is, the driver let me take all the photos I wanted. Now I'm getting some sleep!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well yeah, now you know why every Greyhound rider is always going to biased about the 102DL3: Because they have the most comfortable seats with extra legroom to boot, and a fast, smooth, quiet ride.

I'm back in Reno now and I came home on #86316, a 2010 MCI D4505, with the Detroit 60-H EGR engine. Aw man, so much better than #86544! Almost missed the bus due to events in Downtown Sacramento causing detours, but I got on the bus and found the seat pair right behind the driver empty. No empty seat pairs unless I went really far back, the bus was packed with people because I was riding Schedule 8308, with connecting service to SLC, Denver, and beyond. Used to make an extra stop in Truckee, with the new schedule, that is no more. Cab ride time!

The "Tough Guy" air freshener was not active in the lavatory, which I used before departure. I saw the air freshener in #86544, it was also on this bus. But the bus didn't smell bad at all, smelled just like outside air, restroom (aka lavatory), smelled just like a restroom, not a great smell but not bad either, restroom clean and undamaged. Bus departed while I was in the restroom, heard the beeping and the turbo, got thrown around as the bus started backing and again as it pulled forward. But not rough anymore after we cleared the terminal maneuvers.

Now the Premier LS still sucks, but at least Seat #2 right behind the driver did not sag. Ride was much smoother and quieter than the other bus. Only a tiny bit rougher than the X3-45, IIRC, about the same as the 102DL3. After pulling out of the terminal of course (noting myself thrown around the lavatory). Driver made an extra stop in Colfax, said he needed to use the restroom. Saw him smoking outside with a bearded passenger. Still made it to Reno on-time.

Very skilled driver, though apparently he made an effort to act like a villain from a spy film. He was a square-set middle-aged white man with a clean-shaven head (very clean shaven indeed!), no facial hair, a pair of sunglasses, and a very tidy Greyhound uniform with leather shoes. Yeah, you should've him, didn't look like much of a bus driver, more like Telly Savalas as "Ernst Blofeld"! Also, he forgot to make announcements out of Sacramento, but for some reason many passengers used the seat belts anyway and there was no smoking or bad, loud behavior on the bus at all. Maybe I missed the announcements while I was being thrown around the restroom. :giggle:

In conclusion, I'll just say the D4505 is a really inconsistent bus compared to the 102DL3. The 86300-series seems much superior to the 86500-series. The bus to Denver today was D4505 #86334 with a HUGE "100 YEARS" badge, wouldn't be so bad riding it to Denver if not for the Premier LS. Also saw #7111, a rehabbed G4500 in Lot. Probably tomorrow's morning departure to Salt Lake City? Sorry, not much photos from the Reno Terminal, other than the highly-decorated #86334. But lots of photos from my "cab ride" in #86316!

Attached a sample photo to keep you guys occupied before I upload to Flickr. Good thing is, the driver let me take all the photos I wanted. Now I'm getting some sleep!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sample scenery too. Caught the mountains but you'll have to wait for that!


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## rickycourtney

What's that large monitor in the lower left of your first picture for?


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> What's that large monitor in the lower left of your first picture for?


That's the CEDEC....a sort of telemetry device...on some of the coaches, the driver must input his ID and passcode, before the engine will even start...


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## Green Maned Lion

Telly Savalas was a close second to Charles Grey for best Blofeld.


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's that large monitor in the lower left of your first picture for?
> 
> 
> 
> That's the CEDEC....a sort of telemetry device...on some of the coaches, the driver must input his ID and passcode, before the engine will even start...
Click to expand...

Sorry to pepper you with questions but I'm really curious about this (it's the nerd in me)...

So Greyhound uses it to track the location of the bus?

Is this device relatively new and do most buses have it?

The reason why I ask is... if Greyhound can track the location of its buses they should be able to start offering status updates on schedules. That way they could post delay information on a certain run online and on displays at stations. That would add to customer satisfaction. It's nice to know if your bus is arriving in 5 minutes or it's delayed 50 minutes and you have time to go grab a bite to eat.

Also back to our earlier discussion about communication... can they also use this device to send urgent messages to the driver en route?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think they can send messages to drivers, because drivers seem to have weather and connecting bus info before they arrive. Not sure about that. I think CADEC and DriveCam are on all coaches now.

After the driver pulled into Reno, he just pressed a red button to turn off the engine. Did not touch CADEC, but then again, the bus was coming from San Francisco. Apparently the CADEC screen was off the whole time.

Greyhound has been known to cut communication in order to fund more bus purchases and maintenance. So even with CADEC, the driver might not give a care, if he doesn't need to input a password. Whether that's right or not, you decide.


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## railiner

Thanks, Swadian for correcting my misspelling...it is indeed CADEC, not CEDEC as I spelled it.....as for how Greyhound uses it, I am not sure....never really had it explained to me, other than how to use my ID and passcode to log on, on those coaches I need to move that requires it before starting.

I did find this website that shows its functions, but how much of that Greyhound actually utilizes, I don't know...http://www.cadec.com/

If you move your cursor to 'Solutions', and then down to 'Motorcoach Safety', click, and see some of the devices potential use....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for link. I see what CADEC can do now. Then trainee Loewy shouldn't have gotten lost in Roseville if that GPS was active, but I guess he got confused by the road works. I think CADEC is mainly a safety system to make sure drivers don't go over the speed limit, don't go off-course, or wasting fuel with too high or too low RPM. But Greyhound still has a paper driver's log. In my opinion, it's a great system, but I'm not sure if Greyhound can provide bus tracking to passengers without added modifications.

Whatever the uses are, the "Telly Savalas" driver didn't touch it AFAIK, but he's a very good driver so no big deal.


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## railiner

I don't believe Greyhound subscribes to the mapping feature of the GPS for driver's use. I have seen some driver's plug in their own portable GPS, but not even sure if GL officially supports that, or not....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, that explains why Loewy got lost. I heard a Greyhound driver say that they are not supposed to use GPS, for fear of getting onto a non-bus route with low overpasses, or getting distracted. Instead, they are told to follow written maps and directions.


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## rickycourtney

So as I mentioned in an earlier post... it appears Greyhound is starting to roll out eTicketing.

Greyhound just launched a new smartphone app for BoltBus (which is really nice) and Greyhound drivers assigned to BoltBus routes have now been issued smartphones with barcode readers.

I'm curious to find out just how powerful the system is and if the smartphones issued to drivers are currently capable of doing anything more than just scanning tickets.

eTicketing has really been a huge success for Amtrak. All conductors are assigned an iPhone and they use them to fill out most of the mundane forms they used to have to do on paper, it also allows them to easily sell tickets onboard and keep an accurate manifest of all passengers onboard. On the passenger side of things it means I can now buy a ticket just minutes before a train arrives and walk right to the platform (even at unstaffed stations.) It also means I can skip printing tickets I bought online.

Hopefully Greyhound's system will be equally powerful and I can see a lot of potential of putting a smartphone in the hand of every driver (specialized GPS apps with bus accessible routes, easy communication with dispatch, an app for submitting defect reports and tracking for real-time arrivals information.)


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## Green Maned Lion

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, that explains why Loewy got lost. I heard a Greyhound driver say that they are not supposed to use GPS, for fear of getting onto a non-bus route with low overpasses, or getting distracted. Instead, they are told to follow written maps and directions.


A regular GPS should never be used by a bus BUT I used to have GPS for my truck that had clearance data programmed into it. My truck was 12'7" and I programmed that in and it never routed me via anything I couldn't handle, even round town and along rural roads.


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## Swadian Hardcore

My understanding is that Greyhound was differing communication in order to get money for bus purchases, due to the fleet shortage after new ADA regulations required every bus to have a lift. Now if Greyhound has dealt with fleet problems, now they can start investing in communication.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, I took a look at Greyhound's "Fleet" section of the "Facts and Figures" page, it has a note saying that the information is "as of March 31, 2013". But in March 2013, the 102DL3 rebuilds were not complete. So while 75% of those (about 575 units) were rebuilt and equipped with wheelchair lifts, the remaining units continued to be rebuilt for a few months.

Currently, I believe about 700 rebuilt DL3's are operating in the US fleet, with the rest not to be rebuilt. That is because Greyhound received the new D4505's in October 2013. An unreliable source told me that Greyhound has 750 rebuilt DL3's, I find that unlikely with the amount of white DL3's sitting in the Charter fleet.

Also, a reliable source told me that Greyhound got discounts on the G4500 and bought them "strippo" with no extras other than a restroom, at $350,000 each, and received a total of 446 units costing $156.1 million in total. Of these, 302 were for Greyhound US, 64 were for Greyhound Canada, and the rest for subsidiaries. This is not including the G4100.

Edit: Saw a 102A3 motorhome sitting in the local middle school parking lot, but it had nothing to do with the school since school's out. Driver was taking a break and decided to use the empty parking lot. Still had the old two-stroke Detroit 92. It was an early-model without the extra taillight and had the wide bottom trim like the MC-9. Looks and runs great, the 102A3!


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## Caesar La Rock

There is something I could never understand, Greyhound recently is using Alcoa rims on their newest coaches. Wonder why they never thought to put Alcoas on the 102-DL3s and G4500s as they are coming out of rebuild? Don't know if they would be saving money on using Alcoas versus the ones on the DL3s and G4500s, but that's something that's on my mind.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I found a trip report with photos for a Greyhound overnight ride on a blue G4500. Check this out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/greyhound-100-years-old-and-acting-younger-than-ever/2014/07/03/4b0dbb9c-ecff-11e3-93d2-edd4be1f5d9e_story.html.

Hopefully the link works!

Edit: Unfortunately, the link does not work from here. So you'll have to search "Greyhound 100 years old and acting younger than ever." It should be on Washington Post.


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## railiner

Another great link....thanks for posting it, Swadian!


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## rickycourtney

Those seats look great in leather.

That article was a great read too. It pretty accurately describes Greyhound, the changes for the better and worse and the challenges moving forward.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're welcome. Too bad they didn't add a colored headliner, right now it's just bare pieces sticking out. The 102DL3 headliner is not colored at all but at least it's smooth and rounded to a clear white state. This one has those rims sticking out. Greyhound Canada G4500's have a blue-pattern headliner giving the bus a more polished look at minimal cost.

I agree, the seats look much better than the original G4500 seats. It looks like a much more comfortable bus, inside and out, enough to impress a Washington Post author who had previously rejected Greyhound due to overbooking. I can safely say Greyhound doesn't overbook anymore, but the reason they didn't make a news release is probably because many codeshare carriers still overbook and they didn't want to be accused of false advertising.

As far as I know, the G4500 still has the mechanical problems but should be more comfortable now than the new D4505 or X3-45 that have terrible seats. Also, it appears clean inside and out, while offering massive curb appeal with the rounded nose and aggressive headlights. This could be a great success for updating Greyhound's reputation in Seattle, a comfortable bus that looks great too, despite having the worst mechanical design in Greyhound's fleet. I have to say, when I saw #7191 in Reno, that was one eye-catching bus! But my latest 102DL3 photo upload has gained 518 views in one day, and it's not even that modern-looking.

I'll still have to ride the Blue G4500 for an accurate opinion, but Greyhound's Mexican buses with Mexican seats just lack a headliner to become on-par with the regular buses (not first or executive class) in Mexico that everyone still touts about, and the exact buses that Greyhound was trying to emulate with the G4500.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound received some Massachusetts-owned D4500CT. Image attached. These things are definitely better than the D4505 and are more than capable of intercity service, with a 182-gallon fuel tank (like the 102DL3) compared to the D4505's 164-gallon fuel tank. Still looks to have Premier LS.

Not my photo!


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You're welcome. Too bad they didn't add a colored headliner, right now it's just bare pieces sticking out. The 102DL3 headliner is not colored at all but at least it's smooth and rounded to a clear white state. This one has those rims sticking out. Greyhound Canada G4500's have a blue-pattern headliner giving the bus a more polished look at minimal cost.
> 
> I agree, the seats look much better than the original G4500 seats. It looks like a much more comfortable bus, inside and out, enough to impress a Washington Post author who had previously rejected Greyhound due to overbooking. I can safely say Greyhound doesn't overbook anymore, but the reason they didn't make a news release is probably because many codeshare carriers still overbook and they didn't want to be accused of false advertising.
> 
> As far as I know, the G4500 still has the mechanical problems but should be more comfortable now than the new D4505 or X3-45 that have terrible seats. Also, it appears clean inside and out, while offering massive curb appeal with the rounded nose and aggressive headlights. This could be a great success for updating Greyhound's reputation in Seattle, a comfortable bus that looks great too, despite having the worst mechanical design in Greyhound's fleet. I have to say, when I saw #7191 in Reno, that was one eye-catching bus! But my latest 102DL3 photo upload has gained 518 views in one day, and it's not even that modern-looking.
> 
> I'll still have to ride the Blue G4500 for an accurate opinion, but Greyhound's Mexican buses with Mexican seats just lack a headliner to become on-par with the regular buses (not first or executive class) in Mexico that everyone still touts about, and the exact buses that Greyhound was trying to emulate with the G4500.


I have to disagree on a couple of points.....I like a bare white ceiling, as they reflect a lot more light when the ceiling lights are on bright, providing a very bright interior when bright lighting is necessary for terminal boarding or for cleaning, etc. I have been in some coaches with carpeted ceilings, and while attractive, they dim the lighting considerably.

And as for truly subjective....I strongly dislike the "rounded nose and aggressive headlights" that the G's and 4505's have. To my view, they make the coach look like it was styled by Toyota...I much prefer the clean, square look of the DL3's......I especially like the ones that have the stainless steel....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I can see how the white headliner would reflect light better. Perhaps they should just put a smooth white headliner in the G4500, but not the old headliner with all the rims and edges, something more polished to cover it would be ideal.

As for the nose, yeah I agree, the squarer nose on the DL3 looks better, but for curb appeal the rounded nose attracts most people. It's eye-catching, maybe not great looking to you or me but most people in Seattle would think Greyhound put brand-new buses in their city. After years of getting Dirty Dogs and losing ridership, that's a big deal. The TD925 is eye-catching and gains reputation even though it's not that great at all. But yeah, I myself prefer the DL3, MC-8, or H3-45 squarer looks compared to the E/G/J round looks, it's just that using a Blue G4500 is the best way to get rid of a bad reputation.

I heard Greyhound's DL3 nose is stainless steel, just treated and painted over. I was asked if Greyhounds are governed at 70 mph or 75 mph, every driver I've asked that question says it's 75 mph but I'm not sure if that's for all models.


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## railiner

Yeah, I guess I'm just 'old-school'....I like the days of fluted aluminum and/or stainless steel on the coach, with just a painted letterboard area....nowadays, you only see polished aluminum on some conversion motorhomes that gleam like a mirror....

I guess you know I miss the old AA airliner scheme, as well...


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I can safely say Greyhound doesn't overbook anymore, but the reason they didn't make a news release is probably because many codeshare carriers still overbook and they didn't want to be accused of false advertising.


That's a good theory.
The author of the WaPo points out that on many routes Greyhound still doesn't guarantee seating (it does on BoltBus and Greyhound Express routes.) Most customers wouldn't understand being denied a seat due to overbooking vs. non-guaranteed seating. They'd just be mad that they were denied a seat.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound received some Massachusetts-owned D4500CT. Image attached. These things are definitely better than the D4505 and are more than capable of intercity service, with a 182-gallon fuel tank (like the 102DL3) compared to the D4505's 164-gallon fuel tank. Still looks to have Premier LS.


I'm actually not a huge fan of the look of this bus in the Greyhound livery. That large area above the windshield makes the coach look like it has a big bald forehead.

That being said I like the white headsign and the larger fuel tank seems like a good idea on long distance routes.

Also what's that fourth icon on the door?? There's the normal outlets, WiFi and legroom but there's clearly a fourth icon blocked by the door.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know about the fourth icon. I would need to see the entire D4500CT in Greyhound colors to see if it looks good or not. But I do enjoy riding that model far more than the D4505. Rumors are out that Greyhound cancelled 40 D4505's in favor of D4500CT's. The CT's are 2015 model year, owned by Massachusetts and based from Boston Garage. No more information.

The DL3 has the same black roof cap. I like that look myself, it doesn't look that much like a bald head when you see it in the open. The J4500 really looks bad with the white roof cap, it should always get painted black to avoid looking bald. Then again, I shave my head, occasionally.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't know about the fourth icon. I would need to see the entire D4500CT in Greyhound colors to see if it looks good or not. But I do enjoy riding that model far more than the D4505. Rumors are out that Greyhound cancelled 40 D4505's in favor of D4500CT's. The CT's are 2015 model year, owned by Massachusetts and based from Boston Garage. No more information.
> 
> The DL3 has the same black roof cap. I like that look myself, it doesn't look that much like a bald head when you see it in the open. The J4500 really looks bad with the white roof cap, it should always get painted black to avoid looking bald. Then again, I shave my head, occasionally.


Just curious, why would Massachusetts purchase buses for Greyhound?


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## railiner

Yes...I'm curious about that, too....

I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....

I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....


----------



## The Journalist

On Greyhound's website there aren't any Reno-San Francisco runs branded as "Express" trips and one can't book that trip via the "Greyhound Express" subsite...but there do seem to be several two-stop runs that only stop in Sacramento and Oakland; no idea if those were there before. 5 hours for Reno-SF isn't bad at all. Clearly they're trying to attract the Megabus crowd by shortening their trips and massively discounting web fares-several of them are actually less than Mega. I personally am entirely pleased with this development.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're in Reno too? Go to the Greyhound station right by Winfield Park, they have repainted the interior and labeled "Greyhound Express" all over the place plus the red carpet. But the runs are packed already, and Greyhound now runs 6x daily to San Fran, was 5x daily. Megabus or not, Greyhound is doing well. Heck, Greyhound introduced a Denver-El Paso Limited, and that has nothing to do with Megabus, that one costs only $36.50 in advance.

All the buses are upgraded already, the furnishings at the stations are in place, no more overbooking, it's basically Greyhound Express without saying "Express" on the website.

But the buses to SLC/Denver are generally better because the California D4505's are too unpredictable. The 863- and 864- series are decent, the 865-series is not so good. The SLC/Denver runs almost never get a 865, usually it's an old DL3 or Blue G4500 both of which are significantly more comfortable than the 865-D4505's.

If you think Massachusetts buying buses for Greyhound is weird, what about the Utah-owned 863-series D4505's that run out of SLC? That one is really weird. Those Utah D4505's are fine for daytime rides (like Reno-SLC daytime) but bad at night, like the other 863-D4505's. At night you need an old bus to sleep well, a DL3 or even a Blue G4500. Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.


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## The Journalist

Yeah I live in Reno. I'll go check out that station soon; I was in there about a month ago seeing someone off (they were going to SLC) and one of the employees said something about how the schedule going west was going to change soon. The new limited-stop runs were probably what she meant.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh yeah, I think I might know the fourth icon on the D4500CT's door. Anyone think it's for Greyhound BLUE, the new entertainment system? Those buses are based from Boston Garage, a highly-competitive area. Whether it's running, Boston-New York, Boston-Cleveland, Boston-Montreal, or Boston-Bangor, there's a lot of competition, and Greyhound might be trying out BLUE in that area to gain ridership further.

What's interesting is that Greyhound has not lost any ridership against Megabus, right now it's merely a fight to grab new passengers, and Greyhound is trying to gain the upper hand with those long-haul Limiteds that Megabus can't cover. Looks to be working and the Greyhound LDs and ULDs are growing like crazy. Greyhound execs say the whole network will have Express and Limited service by 2016 (excluding Greyhound Connect and the rural routes), I think that would include New York-Los Angeles.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.


IMHO, 15-20 minutes of padding on a 9 hour and 50 minute schedule is entirely reasonable, and probably a good thing to have, when you consider all of the potential for delays enroute, not to mention, starting late due to waiting on connection, etc......


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## rickycourtney

Found another interesting and very positive article on Greyhound. This time from the 'hound's hometown newspaper, _The Dallas Morning News_: Greyhound starting to get its stride back

Here's my tl;dr highlights:


CEO says that says that competition from Megabus can benefit Greyhound because "it calls attention to buses."
Despite the ultra long distance routes being re-introduced "city pairs" are Greyhound's focus and the company is emphasizing "shorter and more frequent routes between cities 300 or so miles apart."
All bus rebuilds will be finished in August.
The average cost of rebuilding a bus is $120,000 while a new bus configured to Greyhound's specifications costs approximately $500,000.


----------



## rickycourtney

The Journalist said:


> On Greyhound's website there aren't any Reno-San Francisco runs branded as "Express" trips and one can't book that trip via the "Greyhound Express" subsite...but there do seem to be several two-stop runs that only stop in Sacramento and Oakland; no idea if those were there before. 5 hours for Reno-SF isn't bad at all. Clearly they're trying to attract the Megabus crowd by shortening their trips and massively discounting web fares-several of them are actually less than Mega. I personally am entirely pleased with this development.


That's got to be coding error on the Greyhound website. Those are definitely Greyhound Express runs and they shoube marked as such. I'm sure if this was brought to Greyhound's attention it would be fixed.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> But the buses to SLC/Denver are generally better because the California D4505's are too unpredictable. The 863- and 864- series are decent, the 865-series is not so good. The SLC/Denver runs almost never get a 865, usually it's an old DL3 or Blue G4500 both of which are significantly more comfortable than the 865-D4505's.


What's the difference between the 863XX, 864XX and the 865XX buses? What exactly makes them more comfortable in your opinion?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> If you think Massachusetts buying buses for Greyhound is weird, what about the Utah-owned 863-series D4505's that run out of SLC? That one is really weird. Those Utah D4505's are fine for daytime rides (like Reno-SLC daytime) but bad at night, like the other 863-D4505's. At night you need an old bus to sleep well, a DL3 or even a Blue G4500. Reno-SLC is really fast too, says 9:50 but it's always 15-20 minutes early, need to cut padding.


Utah is a big ass state with lots of rural areas... I don't think it's weird for them to be buying buses to support "essential rural services".

On the other hand Massachusetts is a very urban state. I think it's weird that they would be buying buses for Greyhound. They must have specifically requested that service be expanded on a route... but I can't figure out what route. Also, the fact that the buses are D4500CT's suggests that Massachusetts bough the buses themselves (instead of Greyhound adding it to a current order with MCI.)


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## rickycourtney

So I'm thinking about taking a trip down to Olympia later this month. The problem is the Amtrak station is way out on the edge of town and to get to Downtown you have to catch a once hourly transit bus that takes 45 minutes each way. I also looked into taking transit buses from Seattle and the only direct route runs during peak hours, in the peak direction only (I don't want to overnight) all other options involve transferring to another bus in Tacoma or Lakewood. That leaves Greyhound as the only good option.

Curious thing I noted while researching this trip... schedule 6889 is marked as a Greyhound Express schedule... the only Express schedule in the northwest. What makes it an "Express" is that between Seattle and Portland the bus only stops in Tacoma and Olympia, skipping Centralia and Kelso. There's also no reverse run like this... all buses between Portland and Seattle stop in Centralia and Kelso.

I'm also planning a trip down to Portland. I probably won't take Greyhound (I don't want to stop in Tacoma, Olympia, Centralia and Kelso en route) but I am considering taking BoltBus again. I was pretty impressed with the service on my first trip.

I guess that brings up another point... if I was a manager at Greyhound... I would consider merging BoltBus back into Greyhound once Greyhound has fully rebuilt it's image.

I would start off slowly... place a Greyhound logo by the front door that says "BoltBus is proudly operated by Greyhound." After a year or so start rebranding BoltBus routes as like "Greyhound Rapid" routes. I can imagine a clever ad campaign that has the paint peeling back from a BoltBus revealing the Greyhound blue underneath. Maybe have a dedicated fleet of "Greyhound Rapid" buses that are blue but have a prominent red racing stripe with a blue and white lightning bolt. Merging would bring more millennials like myself back to Greyhound. If your BoltBus becomes a Greyhound Rapid, you're more likely to try a Greyhound Express route or a regular Greyhound route in the future.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I read that article about the "stride" but Greyhound is adding longer and longer routes while not adding short routes at all. I received further explanation from Greyhound employees in that Greyhound is making a railway-style network, as opposed to airline-style hub and spoke. This is the theory "bus men" have agreed on:

Greyhound is making hubs around the country. Then, there's tons of short routes from all these hubs. And now Greyhound is connecting multiple hubs with the long-haul corridors. This is railway-style because a lot of train networks in foreign countries have these long-haul corridors with Limited, Express, and Local service, then at major stations (hubs), there are SD trains radiating to other cities.

Case in point: Dallas. There's LD corridors to Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago, Richmond, and Atlanta, plus the Limited to Detroit. These corridors have a mix of service speeds. Then there's shorter routes radiating from Dallas, like Houston, Laredo, Oklahoma City, etc. You can make out the same pattern with Los Angeles, Chicago, Saint Louis, Richmond, New York, etc. Denver is kinda special because it only has LD corridors, no SD routes.

Yes, Greyhound is focusing on shorter city pairs, but LD corridors are the framework on which these SD routes are built upon. This is unlike Megabus or BoltBus who have mini-airline style networks, nonstop or one-stop from each hub to destinations around it, and no through service.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now about the 863, 864, and 865 buses. Well 863 and 864 are from the same batch, and they have Detroit 60-H EGR engines. Their ride seems to be smoother and quieter than the 865 buses. Also, their seats seem to sag less. Maybe the 865 batch went wrong.

It's just a theory, but you have to look at that D4500CT now. It's #MA86576. That is supposed to be a D4505, part of the 130-unit order. Greyhound's next X3-45 starts at #86650, leaving enough space for all the 130 D4505's (starting at #86500), plus options, and BoltBus units. So that space is supposed to be filled with D4505's. But Greyhound received the last batch after #86567, and they were "awaiting acceptance" months ago. Those buses never made it onto the roster. So this explains the Massachusetts D4500CT's.

Greyhound was apparently angry at MCI over the 865-series, and MCI negotiated with Greyhound while watching Prevosts stream into their fleet. To appease Greyhound, MCI is offering the D4500CT, which has been proven in commuter service, at no exchange fee to Greyhound. That seems to be a plausible theory. Greyhound's current 865-series ends abruptly at #86567.


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## Swadian Hardcore

As for Utah ordering buses for Greyhound, all the Greyhound routes out of SLC actually make money, so I still don't understand it. The only two routes out of SLC are to Reno and Las Vegas. Both definitely make profits. The other routes are through from Denver or New York, Denver-Las Vegas/Los Angeles, Denver-Portland, Denver-Reno, New York-Los Angeles. All of those are making money. Greyhound has no rural routes in Utah other than Denver-SLC-Reno which takes US 40 between DEN and SLC. That route is still profitable because of the big cities and connections at either end. So Utah only ordered the buses to "help" Greyhound.

I think it's time Greyhound starts Express out of Seattle. First Portland-Tacoma-Seattle-Bellingham-Vancouver, then later Seattle--Yakima-Pasco-Stanfield and Seattle-Moses Lake-Spokane-Coeur d'Alene-Saint Regis-Missoula. Use those Blue G4500's and H3-45's. Keep BoltBus, it's a useful brand name to exploit. Greyhound can gather passengers under two names instead of one. If one passenger gets mad at either, he would still try the other. BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.

"6889" is actually 1429, appears to be a glitch. Check the System Timetable and you'll see. That's a Vancouver-Los Angeles run. I know, very confusing.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

railiner said:


> Yes...I'm curious about that, too....
> 
> I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....
> 
> I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....


The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.


Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).


----------



## rickycourtney

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.
> 
> 
> 
> Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).
Click to expand...

That makes since. When I rode some of the 2009 BoltBus units earlier this year... the seats were pretty beat up. The leather/vinyl was tearing on a lot of the seats... exposing the webbing below. My only hope is that they replace these horribly uncomfortable seats instead of just reupholstering them.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> I guess that brings up another point... if I was a manager at Greyhound... I would consider merging BoltBus back into Greyhound once Greyhound has fully rebuilt it's image.
> 
> I would start off slowly... place a Greyhound logo by the front door that says "BoltBus is proudly operated by Greyhound." After a year or so start rebranding BoltBus routes as like "Greyhound Rapid" routes. I can imagine a clever ad campaign that has the paint peeling back from a BoltBus revealing the Greyhound blue underneath. Maybe have a dedicated fleet of "Greyhound Rapid" buses that are blue but have a prominent red racing stripe with a blue and white lightning bolt. Merging would bring more millennials like myself back to Greyhound. If your BoltBus becomes a Greyhound Rapid, you're more likely to try a Greyhound Express route or a regular Greyhound route in the future.


Greyhound does not have the goodwill of their brand to do this. It will take decades to rebuild their image, and much more than new buses, cap fixed and new terminals (although it's definitely a good start). What Bolt has going for them is the fact that people do not immediately associate them with Greyhound. That, above everything else, is why it worked in the first place.

I've seen it first hand. For years, Bolt has placed GLI and PPB units on in a pinch to cover schedules with Bolt drivers. As soon as this happens, guaranteed the complaints go up the next day because people are not on a "Bolt" branded bus, even though the bus they're on may be better comfort and feature wise. Same has happened when they used Yankee, Raritan, Cavalier and Martz.

Not saying it won't happen, but it's unlikely that they'll want 80-90% attrition of their customer base with the switch.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> metrolinecoach111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, they already blew Bolt's "cover", because Greyhound X3-45's were recently spotted running BoltBus in the Northeast, with a small sign on the windshield saying "Operated for BoltBus". But passengers probably think that was just a charter.
> 
> 
> 
> Those buses are on loan, as the 2008 Bolt's go in for refurbs - they packed over 650k miles on each of the first 33 and are in need of TLC. Same will happen with the '09's. Greyhound's are a bit better, as many of them haven't taken on as many miles yet (remember that the 17 blue buses in the 2008 order were generally assigned to NYD, ACY and PHL).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That makes since. When I rode some of the 2009 BoltBus units earlier this year... the seats were pretty beat up. The leather/vinyl was tearing on a lot of the seats... exposing the webbing below. My only hope is that they replace these horribly uncomfortable seats instead of just reupholstering them.
Click to expand...

The drivers and staff (me included) complained about it from day zero. They claimed it was a "safety" feature (the lumbar upright support on the leather seats).

The best way to combat it from my experience is to place a cloth bag (not plastic), on the seat and recline it about 10-20 degrees. You're less likely to slide this way.

Granted - the next batch of buses they received (the first set of D45s) had green cushion seats........the jury's still out on that one.


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Oh yeah, I think I might know the fourth icon on the D4500CT's door. Anyone think it's for Greyhound BLUE, the new entertainment system? Those buses are based from Boston Garage, a highly-competitive area. Whether it's running, Boston-New York, Boston-Cleveland, Boston-Montreal, or Boston-Bangor, there's a lot of competition, and Greyhound might be trying out BLUE in that area to gain ridership further.
> 
> What's interesting is that Greyhound has not lost any ridership against Megabus, right now it's merely a fight to grab new passengers, and Greyhound is trying to gain the upper hand with those long-haul Limiteds that Megabus can't cover. Looks to be working and the Greyhound LDs and ULDs are growing like crazy. Greyhound execs say the whole network will have Express and Limited service by 2016 (excluding Greyhound Connect and the rural routes), I think that would include New York-Los Angeles.


They gained back some of the passengers they lost and attracted others with the competition from Megabus. Testing of the BLUE system originated in Dallas early last year and has since expanded.


----------



## railiner

metrolinecoach111 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...I'm curious about that, too....
> 
> I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....
> 
> I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....
> 
> 
> 
> The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.
Click to expand...

Okay....I see the footnote on that timetable telling of Mass. DOT support. But what for the life of me, I can't figure out, is why? The schedule leaves Boston, makes a couple of stops in NH, and terminates in Vt. So the only state with any intrastate service is NH. Why would Massachusetts support those trips?


----------



## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> metrolinecoach111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...I'm curious about that, too....
> 
> I know about NY, NJ and some other states...they are purchased by the state and usually leased to a carrier for a dollar a year, as a way to subsidize certain 'essential local routes' that would otherwise be totally unprofitable for a private carrier to operate....
> 
> I can't think of any Greyhound routes in Ma. that would fit that description.....
> 
> 
> 
> The bus was purchased as part of the MA intercity bus program for a single 5/7 round trip to Brattleboro, VT (Table 64) in Extranet. Started in April.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay....I see the footnote on that timetable telling of Mass. DOT support. But what for the life of me, I can't figure out, is why? The schedule leaves Boston, makes a couple of stops in NH, and terminates in Vt. So the only state with any intrastate service is NH. Why would Massachusetts support those trips?
Click to expand...

Best Guess; shoppers and day trippers use the bus tocome to Boston as tourists and spend lots of money as Boston is an expensive City and the traffic is really bad so they don't want to drive???!!!


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Reno-SLC is actually padded about 10-20 minutes at every stop, 20 minutes at the end. So the buses always arrive 20 minutes early but if you cut the padding in the middle they would shave 1 hour off the timetable and still be on-time.

So I was taking a look at the new Los Angeles-Vancouver route and it seems like Sacramento-Portland is still the most packed segment. 3/4 of all buses on that segment were SOLD OUT or had one seat left, that segment has been packed to the gills every time I've seen it. Meanwhile, none of the PNW segments are sold out. Greyhound definitely still needs Bolt in the PNW which carries about twice the ridership Seattle-Portland as Greyhound, the G4500 debacle is probably the main reason.

Apparently MCI modified the suspension for the 2014 D4505 model year with the new "MCI Dynamic Suspension", also modified other mechanisms to gain an edge over Prevost and Van Hool, but those new tech probably messed up. Greyhound's #86528-86567 are 2014 model year, built late 2013 actual year. Looking at the VIN's, they were apparently the first 2014 D4505's with the new tech, so Greyhound could have gotten mad about its unreliable performance and cancelled the remaining D4505's, though another small batch was built for Bolt (#895-901) before everything suddenly stopped.


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## railiner

The schedule leaves Boston 1145, arrives Brattleboro 1450, leaves there at 1515, and arrives back in Boston at 1820. And it only operates on Friday's and Sunday's.

So unless the traveler would come to Boston on Friday, and return home on Sunday, they could not do a "day-trip".....


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The Reno-SLC is actually padded about 10-20 minutes at every stop, 20 minutes at the end. So the buses always arrive 20 minutes early but if you cut the padding in the middle they would shave 1 hour off the timetable and still be on-time.


Okay, I have not researched it, but I'll take your word for it. So perhaps they shoud take out the mid schedule padding, and just leave it between the last two stops on the segment....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Man, it's annoying, I tell ya, every time I ride Reno-SLC the driver makes extra rest stops where there's not supposed to be and extends the planned rest stops to just wait for the schedule. I think it dates from the Double Nickel days or something. Or maybe it used to make more stops and then Greyhound cut those stops and forgot to shrink the timetable.

Yeah, I'm baffled that Massachusetts would order those D4500CT's merely for a once-weekly rural local. I guess that's why Greyhound's sending them to NYD in the meantime.


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## Misty.

I guess now is as good of a time as any to admit I've been following this thread for awhile  I was having one of my days where I wander St. Louis City and County yesterday, and the bus route I take into downtown goes to Gateway Station anyway. Couldn't do a points run, not even a 311 run (the primary spot I went to opened at 9 AM, and I knew I wouldn't be able to get back in time), but I did at least get to see 22 pull in... Also got this picture, originally posted directly to Flickr immediately after taking it, and now posted here on someone's suggestion 

(Edited because I'm learning the forum-specific photo upload procedures again and had to delete a duplicate posting of the pic).


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## railiner

Very nice shot! Thanks for posting...

And for those other "lurker's" of this thread (we know you're out there, judging by the 'views count',.....please don't be shy....jump right in....we like "The Dog", but we don't bite... :lol:


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## rickycourtney

Overnight a Greyhound bus running from Los Angeles to New York (schedule 1682) was hit by a stolen Mustang driving the wrong way on I-70 near the town of Richmond, IN (near the IN/OH border). The driver of the Mustang was killed and 19 people on board the bus were injured including the Greyhound driver who had to be airlifted to the hospital. There were 24 passengers on the bus that had just left Indianapolis, IN and was en route to Troutwood (Dayton), OH.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-dead-19-hurt-bus-stolen-car-collide-indiana-n154636


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## Swadian Hardcore

A stolen Mustang crashing head-on into a Greyhound bus! The crash didn't happen at night, it happened in broad daylight. Damn, and it was a Prevost.

This was 1679, not 1682, further research shows the accident happened near Richmond just before 7:00 AM, so that would make it 1679 Saint Louis-New York. 1682 passes that point at 11:00 AM.


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## rickycourtney

You're right it's 1682. My bad. I'm still new to the Greyhound schedules.

I went back read the AP wire copy and a Greyhound spokesperson said the bus was en route from St. Louis to New York.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Um, 1679 , not 1682. But yeah, I'm confused why Greyhound has an odd-numbered schedule going eastbound. Usually westbound/southbound is odd, and eastbound/northbound is even, just like Amtrak.

By the way, Misty's Saint Louis shot shows no Prevost's, so Prevost's must be rare in STD, I'm betting the STD garage doesn't have any, and the Prevost was from the Northeast pool.

Apparently there's a fence between the two carriageways of that I-70 segment, so the stolen Mustang must have driver up the wrong on-ramp. Too bad the car thief is dead but what do you expect when a Prevost crashes head-on into a Mustang at highway speeds? Reminds me of the Greyhound Canada crash at Fernie a few years back, a G4500 (#1185) at night in the mountains crashed head-on into a mislead car and crushed it, also killing the car driver, and also injuring the Greyhound driver heavily.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Apparently there's a fence between the two carriageways of that I-70 segment, so the stolen Mustang must have driver up the wrong on-ramp. Too bad the car thief is dead but what do you expect when a Prevost crashes head-on into a Mustang at highway speeds? Reminds me of the Greyhound Canada crash at Fernie a few years back, a G4500 (#1185) at night in the mountains crashed head-on into a mislead car and crushed it, also killing the car driver, and also injuring the Greyhound driver heavily.


There appears to be a cable barrier between the eastbound and westbound lanes. That means the driver got on the freeway by going up Westbound offramp (that makes the most since, the thief was a Richmond resident) or crossed over at some point (interstates often have crossover points for maintenance and law enforcement. It will likely take a while to come out, but I'm sure toxicology reports will show that this guy was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the crash.

It's sad that the Greyhound driver in both of these head-on crashes were seriously injured. On most modern motorcoaches the driver sits close to the roadway while the passengers sit a few feet above and the buses have a flat nose. Its a nice design most of the time. It's easier to drive when you're down lower, passengers get a better view and flat noses make cornering easier. The problem is that there's not a lot of crushable space to protect the driver and being lower puts them on the level of a car in an accident. Thankfully accidents like this are rare.


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## rickycourtney

The Greyhound media relations team must be working overtime right now. Another day, another mostly positive article. This time from the _USA Today_:

Greyhound remakes itself for a new generation


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah that's why I like the DL3, highest driver's seat in the industry. Look at this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8156510989/sizes/l. Drivers that like the DL3 frequently cite the high driver's seat and smaller windshield than most modern buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed. I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished _and_ rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.

Even older travelers are trying out Greyhound now. Seems like everyone old enough to remember the Greyhound Disasters of the 1980's still hates Greyhound, everyone that can't remember that is now willing to try Greyhound. The Greyhound Disasters were basically when Greyhound had two violent strikes, got sold by their own Corporation, hired "scab" drivers, cut legroom, got rid of many widebody 102A3's, cut routes and frequencies, merged with Continental Trailways (a financial disaster), and then went bankrupt in 1990.

Looking at that photo Misty posted, looks like Blue G4500's are landing in Saint Louis Garage, with two of them at the same time. There's one D4505, probably through run from Los Angeles. I think Saint Louis Garage must be DL3's and Blue G4500's right now.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, I was just on TTMG and check out those BoltBus seats: http://www.ttmg.org/pages/tmci/greyhound-mci.html. Don't know what type they are but they look more comfortable than the Premier LS.

Could be Amaya Torino G.

Edit: Ugh, link doesn't work, you'll have to go to TTMG - Multimedia - Photos - Bus - Greyhound Lines - 2010-2013 BoltBus D4505 - Interior.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.


I would be very interested to hear from an _official_ Greyhound source that overbooking has been stopped. I think it's gonna be impossible for it to be completely eliminated until Greyhound can track seats sold on all routes.

But, I like your theory that the reason why they haven't come out and said overbooking is done... at this point they have no guarantee that connecting routes will be overbooked. The trick to that is making passengers aware that they are booking a "codeshare" schedule and that overbooking is possible.

I think the other issue Greyhound might still have is with routes that have passengers booked by an agent other than Greyhound. Consider the Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes operated by Greyhound. Amtrak issues paper tickets for those routes, drivers collect the tickets and Greyhound is paid by Amtrak for each ticket they submit. To my knowledge, there's no communication between Amtrak's booking computer and Greyhound's booking computer. Hopefully this problem can be solved with the switch to eTicketing.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished _and_ rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.


When I talk about a "true" refurbished bus... I'm talking about what ABC Companies did to the 102DL3's. Those coaches were stripped down to the bare metal inside and out and the engines were completely removed. Then they went through and replaced or reconditioned every part to the tune of $120,000 per bus.

I just have a hard time fathoming why Greyhound would spend that much doing something like that to the G4500's. They are clearly getting a much needed facelift and some maintenance... but I still don't think it's a complete refurbishment.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Even older travelers are trying out Greyhound now. Seems like everyone old enough to remember the Greyhound Disasters of the 1980's still hates Greyhound, everyone that can't remember that is now willing to try Greyhound. The Greyhound Disasters were basically when Greyhound had two violent strikes, got sold by their own Corporation, hired "scab" drivers, cut legroom, got rid of many widebody 102A3's, cut routes and frequencies, merged with Continental Trailways (a financial disaster), and then went bankrupt in 1990.


I would argue that Greyhound's image problem wasn't with strikes, drivers, ownership, legroom or finances... it was with *clientele*.

Like the USA Today article said, the image that most people had (and a lot still have) is that Greyhound passengers are there because they can't afford anything else. There were several high-profile, extremely violent incidents with passengers assaulting drivers or fellow passengers. Incidents like that are rare but they make people extremely uneasy. Then there's the more common problems like drunk passengers, smelly passengers, passengers shout profanities into their phones or that talk to themselves. Those people aren't dangerous but they drive away the "choice passengers" (they'll chose to travel in their own car).

I think that Greyhound has gone a long way correcting this problem. They at least threaten that everyone needs a valid ID, security is ever present at most stations and I'm hearing more stories of drivers kicking off passengers or refusing to let them board. That's opened a window for a younger generation of "choice passengers" who can be wooed by things like power outlets, WiFi and express routes.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be very interested to hear from an _official_ Greyhound source that overbooking has been stopped. I think it's gonna be impossible for it to be completely eliminated until Greyhound can track seats sold on all routes.
> 
> But, I like your theory that the reason why they haven't come out and said overbooking is done... at this point they have no guarantee that connecting routes will be overbooked. The trick to that is making passengers aware that they are booking a "codeshare" schedule and that overbooking is possible.
> 
> I think the other issue Greyhound might still have is with routes that have passengers booked by an agent other than Greyhound. Consider the Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes operated by Greyhound. Amtrak issues paper tickets for those routes, drivers collect the tickets and Greyhound is paid by Amtrak for each ticket they submit. To my knowledge, there's no communication between Amtrak's booking computer and Greyhound's booking computer. Hopefully this problem can be solved with the switch to eTicketing.
Click to expand...

It will be downright difficult to completely get rid of overbooking on Greyhound.

1. As you mentioned, interline partners, pooling partners and codeshare partners all have different methods of selling and different capacity limits. Good luck trying to have everyone conform to one way of doing things. But more importantly....

2. Atlantic City, Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods - these schedules are NOT capacity fixed on the return trip. If you get rid of the open return for 96 hours rule on these tickets, you lose your ridership base. Try telling the average 60-70 year old rider to "call" or "reserve their seat online." It's not happening. 90% of casino bus trips are cash driven and the sections can sometimes double or triple that of the Northeast Corridor, NYS or Montreal/Toronto. Granted, they don't pull in the traffic they used to, but NYD-ACY is still in the top 5 of city pairs in the Greyhound system.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at that article, yep, Leach has probably gotten rid of Greyhound's own overbooking, and is now launching massive publicity and ad campaigns to get more passengers on the bus and see how things have changed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard from Greyhound drivers and other bus people that the G4500's are getting refurbished _and_ rebuilt, but still no confirmation and no proper trip report. I'll have to do it myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I talk about a "true" refurbished bus... I'm talking about what ABC Companies did to the 102DL3's. Those coaches were stripped down to the bare metal inside and out and the engines were completely removed. Then they went through and replaced or reconditioned every part to the tune of $120,000 per bus.
> 
> I just have a hard time fathoming why Greyhound would spend that much doing something like that to the G4500's. They are clearly getting a much needed facelift and some maintenance... but I still don't think it's a complete refurbishment.
Click to expand...

Money talks. As Dave Leach has said - buying a new coach costs 400-500k. Refurbing a coach to buy 5-7 more years costs $50-125k. First Group is willing to spend money, but also looks to save where it can. The G's engineering may be questioned by many, but it still has a good frame and the company has stockpiled a lot of parts.


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## rickycourtney

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Money talks. As Dave Leach has said - buying a new coach costs 400-500k. Refurbing a coach to buy 5-7 more years costs $50-125k. First Group is willing to spend money, but also looks to save where it can. The G's engineering may be questioned by many, but it still has a good frame and the company has stockpiled a lot of parts.


Right and I totally get that. But the point is... how deep is the refurbishment on the G4500? If it's as simple as a new coat of paint, some time in the shop maintaining the engine, new seat covers, power outlets, WiFi and through cleaning... that's probably $50,000 and buys you 5 more years in service. In my opinion that's a very worthy investment in terms of money and corporate image. Doing a total refurbishment like the 102DL3's got (at $120,000 per bus) probably wouldn't be worth it.
Also it appears that for the moment, Greyhound has stopped buying new buses, at least in mass quantities. There have been no press releases from Greyhound, MCI, Prevost and nothing in "the trades." I'm thinking the company has probably hit a nice mark where they have all the buses they need.

Now it's time to focus on the other side of the customer experience... implementing eTicketing and hopefully coming up with a way to track real-time arrivals and departures.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's my take on the overbooking:

1. Connecting carriers still overbook.

2. Casino services still overbook.

3. Amtrak Thruway still overbooks.

4. "Pure" Greyhound, no longer overbooks.

5. Greyhound, again, doesn't make releases because there's too many little things that still have overbooking.

Look at Greyhound's New York-Atlantic City service, it has no Greyhound Express, even though routes around it are teeming with Greyhound Express. Just makes my point.

Now look at Sacramento-Portland, which was recently extended to become Los Angeles-Vancouver, but that segment is still the most popular. Every time I have seen the Sacramento-Portland, it was packed to the gills, literally, because in those D4505 buses, the main passenger air vents are along the window bar. Last time I saw that bus, the passengers lined up from the bus gate across the entire Sacramento terminal to the front entrance. But every single person got on the 50-seater D4505. And for more backing, the route has yield management, and has repeatedly shown "SOLD OUT" on the website.

So I'm saying at least Sacramento-Portland does not overbook. Reno-SLC-Denver does not overbook. Detroit-Nashville-Dallas does not overbook. Seem what I'm talking about?


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## Swadian Hardcore

As for the bad reputation, you're not understanding my point. You said the passengers were bad, but where did all the good passengers go in the 1980's? Yes, low-cost airlines. But low-cost airlines are still around, and their ridership is stuck while Greyhound is expanding. I do insist that one of Greyhound's biggest ridership-losing mistakes was lower wages resulting in strikes, and getting rid of most 102A3's. The 102A3 _was_ and still is noticeably more comfortable than 96-inch buses. A Wide Ace with a good driver could have kept passengers riding Greyhound that had always liked riding Greyhound. But no, they had 925 102A3's and more on order, but sold most of them and cancelled the orders when Greyhound went bankrupt due to strikes and debt, then after emerging Greyhound went back to 96-inch "Dirty Dogs", the MC-12, which was liked by drivers but hated by passengers. The "Dirty Dog" was the MC-12 originally, then the G4500.

Greyhound should have ordered a 102-inch MC-12, which was exactly the 102A3 later 102B3, same structure, same interior, same HVAC, same powertrain, just wider and a different dashboard. Strip it down for lower prices, and Greyhound should have raised the wages after paying back the debt.

Again, Greyhound's diversification under Trautman throughout the 1970's didn't help either.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Last thing, about the G4500's, yeah it sucked, and it sucked hard, and it was indeed fiberglass JUNK, but you have to remember, the G4500 has the same structure as the J4500. The J4500, incidentally, has been the best-selling coach in North America since 2004. And the engine is the same Detroit Diesel 60-R or 60-P as in the DL3, except for #7229-7244, which have the Caterpillar C12.

As for what Greyhound did with it, I don't know. But the drivers like it a lot more and the passengers _definitely_ like it a lot more. Exactly what they did with it, doesn't really matter that much, even though Josh Harris still hates it, well the J4500 has a lot of haters too, but they still sell in huge numbers, nearly 10,000 units sold now.

And lastly, the G4500 has the same or even more luggage capacity as the H3-45, cargo hold for both is 440 cubic feet, and the parcel racks sure hang down more in the G than the H, that's right, the H3-45, tallest single-decker bus on the road, has pretty much the same "on paper" stats as the G4500. That might have been why Greyhound bought the G in the first place, they though it was a H3-45 costing 30% less, or about $180,000 less. And the J still costs about $100,000 less than the H, according to a charter bus operator on GTE, Eric Gregory.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh, you've got to be kidding me! Sacramento-Portland: tonight's 1440 only has 3 seats left and they'll probably be filled by last-minute tickets bought at the station. Tomorrow, 1420 already SOLD OUT, 1446 already SOLD OUT, 1436 for tomorrow evening has only 5 tickets left. Basically all Sacramento-Portland runs for the next 24 hours are either sold out or almost sold out. Yeah, Greyhound needs more buses on that route, ASAP.

By the way, Los Angeles-Sacramento is also doing well, but not as well as Sacramento-Portland. Again, Portland-Seattle-Vancouver is doing poorly. So the whole Los Angeles-Vancouver long-haul corridor isn't doing bad except for north of Portland.

Edit: Now that I think about it, tomorrow morning's 1446 departs Sacramento at 8:00 AM after running from Los Angeles. Now the LAD-SAC segment is not sold out, but SAC-PUT for that run is sold out at least 14 hours in advance. So Greyhound has probably already planned an extra section for that route just to handle the loads, because it would be a big waste to lose out on a bus sold out 14 hours in advance, given some Greyhound riders would still "buy and go".


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now look at Sacramento-Portland, which was recently extended to become Los Angeles-Vancouver, but that segment is still the most popular.


Makes since. That route has little duplication and little competition. There's plenty of ways to get between LA, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle and Vancouver... but for the small towns between Sacramento and Portland... Greyhound is the only real choice.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Every time I have seen the Sacramento-Portland, it was packed to the gills, literally, because in those D4505 buses, the main passenger air vents are along the window bar.


I have no idea what the D4505 having air vents along the window bar has to do with anything.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Last time I saw that bus, the passengers lined up from the bus gate across the entire Sacramento terminal to the front entrance. But every single person got on the 50-seater D4505. And for more backing, the route has yield management, and has repeatedly shown "SOLD OUT" on the website.
> 
> So I'm saying at least Sacramento-Portland does not overbook. Reno-SLC-Denver does not overbook. Detroit-Nashville-Dallas does not overbook. Seem what I'm talking about?


I see what you're talking about... Greyhound is *moving away* from overbooking... and that's a very good thing. But it has not *killed* or *eliminated* overbooking which is what you have said previously on this forum on the thread titled "Greyhound Kills Overbooking, Expands Service, Introduces Yield Mgmt":



Swadian Hardcore said:


> *Here's the latest confirmed news on Greyhound:*
> 
> 
> No more overbooking on any US schedules.





Swadian Hardcore said:


> As for the bad reputation, you're not understanding my point. You said the passengers were bad, but where did all the good passengers go in the 1980's? Yes, low-cost airlines. But low-cost airlines are still around, and their ridership is stuck while Greyhound is expanding.


I don't like the term "good passengers"... they're "choice passengers" (they have a choice in how they choose to travel).

In the 1980's those "choice passengers" went to their personal automobiles and the airlines when deregulation lowered fares. I would venture to guess that most of those customers have not and will not come back.

Greyhound's increase in ridership (along with all other bus companies) comes from millennials.

Being a "millennial" myself I speak from experience here... this generation owns fewer cars than their parents and they would rather not deal with the hassle of the airports for *shorter* trips, plus flying just isn't as cheap as it used to be (I remember getting $70 round trip Southwest fares from Burbank to Oakland 8 years ago, that's gone now.) Appealing to these customers is how Greyhound (and Megabus and BoltBus) has expanded ridership.

But I expect that, aside from novelty, most millennial customers will not be interested in a long haul bus trip (LA-NY). That's why Greyhound has, until now, focused on removing stops on many routes and adding frequencies between popular city pairs.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I do insist that one of Greyhound's biggest ridership-losing mistakes was lower wages resulting in strikes, and getting rid of most 102A3's. The 102A3 _was_ and still is noticeably more comfortable than 96-inch buses. A Wide Ace with a good driver could have kept passengers riding Greyhound that had always liked riding Greyhound. But no, they had 925 102A3's and more on order, but sold most of them and cancelled the orders when Greyhound went bankrupt due to strikes and debt, then after emerging Greyhound went back to 96-inch "Dirty Dogs", the MC-12, which was liked by drivers but hated by passengers. The "Dirty Dog" was the MC-12 originally, then the G4500.
> 
> Greyhound should have ordered a 102-inch MC-12, which was exactly the 102A3 later 102B3, same structure, same interior, same HVAC, same powertrain, just wider and a different dashboard. Strip it down for lower prices, and Greyhound should have raised the wages after paying back the debt.


You've said this before... when a passenger sees a refurbished 102DL3 they say "nice, we get a *NEW* bus today". Passengers don't realize it's a 15 year old bus because it has leather seats, power outlets, WiFi and it's clean... so they think it's new. That's the power of properly maintaining your equipment.

At the end of the day, most passengers don't care what model the bus is, who built the bus, how wide it's aisles are... they just want it to have all the features they want and they don't want it to break down on the road.

As long as Greyhound keeps all of it's buses keep well maintained (both inside and in the engine bay)... ridership will keep growing. But if they return to the "dirty dog" days of buses with stained seats and duct tape holding the baggage doors shut... all of this hard work and money will be for nothing.


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm sure Greyhound has learned to know better than to buy the junk MCI has been building the past few decades.

I assume they will soon start buying Setras like a sane company.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I have some rare AM time today, and I'll just say, go to Greyhound Reno and see what passengers are riding the bus. Not the same passengers as Megabus or BoltBus. You'll see older people and children.

You seem to not have understood "D4505 with air vents along the window bar". That was just to say it was actually "packed to the gills", the "gills" being the air vents and "packed" meaning the passengers filled every single seat, aisle and window.

Yes, passengers could and did feel the difference between a 102A3 and a MC-9 or MC-12. The extra 1.5" of width per seat helps, and on longer trips, it helps a lot. Greyhound's MC-9's had extra legroom for 43 seats, which made up for it, the 102A3 and MC-12 both had 47 seats, and the MC-12 was BAD with 47 seats, the 102A3 wasn't, because it was wider. Greyhound could have quickly recovered its reputation after the Disasters, by ordering the 102A3/102B3 with 43 seats. But no, they ordered the MC-12 with 47 seats. Competition is one thing, reputation is another.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Bad news for the aftermath of the 1170 murder: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/mountie-who-witnessed-bus-beheading-dies-by-suicide-1.1918550.


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## Caesar La Rock

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm sure Greyhound has learned to know better than to buy the junk MCI has been building the past few decades.
> 
> I assume they will soon start buying Setras like a sane company.


Setras, I don't know if they will test them out again. That's a tough cookie to bite there, but strange things have happened. No one saw Greyhound ever buying buses from Prevost, so we couldn't rule that out. You also have to give these buses a possibility too.

http://www.temsa.com/TS45.aspx

https://www.prevostcar.com/content/volvo-9700


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## Swadian Hardcore

Say what you want to say, you have nothing to back it up. MCI's are junk, what a GREAT joke. Euro buses with high mirrors and panoramic windshields are good, what a GREAT joke.


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## Caesar La Rock

As for whether European buses could outperform US buses, that's up for debate.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I have some rare AM time today, and I'll just say, go to Greyhound Reno and see what passengers are riding the bus. Not the same passengers as Megabus or BoltBus. You'll see older people and children.


You have to understand that Reno is such a small example of Greyhound's system.

As I see it, Greyhound has two big customer bases:

* People (everyone including families, older adults) who travel Greyhound because they can't afford anything else.

* Younger people who are choosing to take Greyhound for a variety of reasons (cost, convenience, being green)

From what you've said before it sounds like that second group hasn't really trickled into Reno yet (hopefully the

Greyhound Express routes will encourage younger people in San Francisco to come to the casino's in Reno for the weekend, but it sounds like isn't exactly an easy walk from the the Greyhound station to the Casinos in the summer heat.)

I would be more curious about what passengers are riding the Greyhound in Texas. Greyhound has focused heavily on connecting the major towns in that state. Pardon the pun but it's also been a dog fight between Megabus and Greyhound Express since both services started in Texas at about the same time. It's also where Southwest Airlines made a name for themselves... connecting Dallas, Houston and San Antonio and that's exactly what Greyhound and Megabus are trying to do now (except with buses).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yes, passengers could and did feel the difference between a 102A3 and a MC-9 or MC-12. The extra 1.5" of width per seat helps, and on longer trips, it helps a lot. Greyhound's MC-9's had extra legroom for 43 seats, which made up for it, the 102A3 and MC-12 both had 47 seats, and the MC-12 was BAD with 47 seats, the 102A3 wasn't, because it was wider. Greyhound could have quickly recovered its reputation after the Disasters, by ordering the 102A3/102B3 with 43 seats. But no, they ordered the MC-12 with 47 seats. Competition is one thing, reputation is another.


No amount of seats on buses was gonna put the toothpaste back in the tube after the "disasters" (I assume you're referring to the passengers and drivers who were assaulted). It would have taken a massive ad campaign and the company very visibly increasing security (things that are just now happening.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound tested the Setra S-407 and the MCI D4505 side-by-side on Dallas-Los Angeles. The D4505 won, but that route now has X3-45's too, from Dallas Garage. Meanwhile, G4500's were ousted from the route.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has not increased service in the DAL-HOU-AUS triangle for a while. Instead they increased services on the DAL-LAD. Greyhound is turtling against Megabus while attacking where Megabus doesn't operate.

No, you still have the customer base wrong. I have seen all too many people DRIVE to the Reno terminal and then go in to ride, the families and people that can more definitely afford air travel. You're not wrong, there are those two customers bases, and one more: road trippers that are sick and tired of driving and decided to leave the driving to Greyhound.

That's why Greyhound's new ad campaign says "GO GREYHOUND AND LEAVE THE DRIVING THE US", and that's why Greyhound's newest ads popping up say "TRAVEL WORTHY OF AN ENCORE". That means Greyhound wants people who swore off Greyhound before, the older generation, to try Greyhound again, hence "encore".

No, the attacks and beheading came AFTER the disasters. The disasters were in the 1980's and early 1990's, the strikes, union-scab fights (violent fights with weapons), dirty buses and stations, smaller seats, legroom, etc. That's what caused the clientele to deteriorate and that's why the attacks and beheading followed.

By the way, Vince Weiguang Li, the man who did the beheading, was actually an educated immigrant from China with an university degree, not the "crazies" that caused the other attacks.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm sure Greyhound has learned to know better than to buy the junk MCI has been building the past few decades.
> 
> I assume they will soon start buying Setras like a sane company.


I'm pretty sure you're trolling here... but I'll put in my 2 cents.

Some of Greyhound's MCI 102DL3's and D4500 are pushing 16 years old. That alone would be a heck of a feat for many motorcoaches. But instead of being retired, they were refurbished and are probably good for another 10 years. Here's the thing, they look almost brand new. I'm sure many will see 25 years on the road before retirement. That's a huge testament to MCI's quality.

As an aside, there's a charter company that runs a bunch of 10-15 year old Setra's here in Seattle from the airport to the cruise terminals... they look beat up and their engines belch out black smoke whenever the driver hits the gas. Those units see a lot less miles every year than Greyhound's 15 year old MCI's do.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Now that I'm done with something else, I'll throw my two cents on MCI's past coaches for a few decades ago. The MC-9s are still running around down here for charter, churches, and other companies.

They haven't build those things since 1990 and some of those coaches have to be over 25-30+ years old at best. Some even have MC-8s, dating from the 1970s. One of my friends saw a 1978 MC-5C not too long ago.

MCI's old coaches have proven themselves to be workhorses in Greyhound and outside of Greyhound to this very day. There are also old 102-DL3s here, some of which sport those square rear taillights used on the A, B, C Series buses as well as the MC-12s.

The 102-DL3s being in service for 16 years and counting is amazing. I wouldn't call those MC Series, the A, B, C, and D Series junk, since many of them are still running around to this very day.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I didn't say that all coaches MCI ever built were junk. That would be trolling.

What they are building now is junk. They had a near monopoly on the bus business for a long time. It gets to your head. There is a reason Greyhound has switched to Provost Car instead of their former subsidiary. It's not for overwhelming love of MCI products, I would assume.

Let us remember that at one time Andre Citroen was THE foremost automotive pioneer. He delivered the Traction Avant, the first mass produced car to feature any of the following- front wheel drive, collapsible steering, monocoque construction. And then he blew that all away to deliver the Citroen DS, a car so advanced, the next car to even come close in advancement was the Tesla Model S.

And now they are a manufacturer of cheap, generally crappy economy cars.

Any company who is willing to release a product as flawed as the G4500 is a company I wouldn't buy from.

Bad maintenance is not an indication of a bad product.


----------



## rickycourtney

Setra has a great-looking product for the European market... but I wonder how well it translates to the American market.

Both the TopClass S 417 and the ComfortClass S 407 seem to be designed for charter and tour operators. I wonder if they would be up to the challenge of the long-haul scheduled services that Greyhound runs.

The Amtrak California Thruway Motorcoach route from Bakersfield to Santa Barbara uses the Setra ComfortClass S 407 but that's the only scheduled service that I've seen using a Setra.

Also... it seems to be a moot discussion at this point. Greyhound's days of buying hundreds of motorcoaches per year seem to be over. The last major order was for 55 Prevost X3-45 coaches in November 2013. All of those buses were expected to be delivered by May 2014.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The other reason it's a moot point, is because of Daimler.

Anyway, Greyhound might buy some more buses to upgrade service out of Vancouver and Seattle. But ridership there still seems low.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The other reason it's a moot point, is because of Daimler.


Is that a joke? Because I don't get your point.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyway, Greyhound might buy some more buses to upgrade service out of Vancouver and Seattle. But ridership there still seems low.


Why? Vancouver and Seattle just got a bunch of refurbished G4500 buses. If anything they'd give BoltBus new buses and give Greyhound hand me down 2009 X3-45 buses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Daimler's not a joke. I'm being serious.


----------



## railiner

To reiterate my humble opinion on MCI....back when Greyhound Corporation owned both Greyhound Lines and Motor Coach Industries, I believe the engineers at GL demanded and received an excellent coach. The MC-5, 7, 8, and 9 went from relative obscurity as a Canadian builder, to the world's pre-eminent coach builder during their stewardship.

They knocked the former standard, General Motors, literally out of the business in 1980, although the government's anti-trust war on GM had a lot to do with that.

The letter series A-B-C started off with great promise, but when the bus line and the manufacturer were 'divorced' during the tumultous period, that was when I believe MCI started its downward slip, where their accountants looked to cut build expense, rather than improve quality, and they opened the door for Prevost, Van Hool, Setra, and other's to erode their market share.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Coincidentally, both Setra and Van Hool entered the coach market in 1984. Neoplan USA was already making luxury coaches prior to Setra and Van Hool coming in. They also exported coaches to the US in the mid 70s.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Apparently a big problem with the 102C3 was that it's very hard to install a wheelchair lift compared to the 102A3 or 102B3. In my opinion, MCI's BIG folly was allowing themselves to be purchased by Dina and then the 102EL3 Renaissance in 1996. When MCIs started NOT looking like MCIs, they started going downhill.

102C3's, 102DL3's, and 102D3's do look solid to me, I don't really see why the original A-B-C-D they would be worse than a MC-9.

102C3: http://www.transithub.net/gloc/gloc852.jpg.

102DL3: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_984-2.jpg.

102D3: http://www.transithub.net/gloc/gloc973.jpg.

102EL3: http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/images/2/2b/Greyhound_Canada_1091-a.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

On vacation in Chicago this weekend. Spotted a unrebuilt 102DL3 still in the white elevate everything livery. Also saw a charter 102DL3 in the blue livery with just one icon on the door.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

What Greyhound needs is a fleet awash with three pointed stars. It would attract passengers by the train load.


----------



## railiner

Yeah.....I would join them as long, that is, that they were charging Greyhound fares to be chauffered in S550's.....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm serious. Imagine the ad campaign- Cross the country in Mercedes style and so on.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> On vacation in Chicago this weekend. Spotted a unrebuilt 102DL3 still in the white elevate everything livery. Also saw a charter 102DL3 in the blue livery with just one icon on the door.


You mean like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13205424073/sizes/l?

Or this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13552785725/sizes/l?

Apparently it only has Wi-Fi but no power outlets or extra legroom. So I'm guessing it's not rebuilt, just repainted and had a Wi-Fi router added.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Three pointed stars that will burn at Pittsburgh on the New York-Los Angeles run.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I found a series of Trailways promo vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGOmxz_gXyk.

Also someone who seems to like the D4505 too much: http://www.trivalleycentral.com/opinion/columns/autocouple-he-says-greyhounds-race-to-comfort-forefront/article_69915c54-c4f5-11e3-a51d-0019bb2963f4.html.

And this had a segment praising the D4505 too: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/auto-biography/our-new-future-cc-2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-an-impulse-buy-for-a-change-but-an-impulsive-1000-mile-29-hour-trip-to-bring-it-home/.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I found a series of Trailways promo vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGOmxz_gXyk.
> 
> Also someone who seems to like the D4505 too much: http://www.trivalleycentral.com/opinion/columns/autocouple-he-says-greyhounds-race-to-comfort-forefront/article_69915c54-c4f5-11e3-a51d-0019bb2963f4.html.
> 
> And this had a segment praising the D4505 too: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/auto-biography/our-new-future-cc-2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-an-impulse-buy-for-a-change-but-an-impulsive-1000-mile-29-hour-trip-to-bring-it-home/.


Thanks for those links...especially the first one...I had not seen it before, or even knew of it. I'll have to speak to the driver (Mark), about it when I see him. It seems that our company was not involved in the production as much as Martz and Greyhound, and the Trailways Association office was...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found a series of Trailways promo vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGOmxz_gXyk.
> 
> Also someone who seems to like the D4505 too much: http://www.trivalleycentral.com/opinion/columns/autocouple-he-says-greyhounds-race-to-comfort-forefront/article_69915c54-c4f5-11e3-a51d-0019bb2963f4.html.
> 
> And this had a segment praising the D4505 too: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/auto-biography/our-new-future-cc-2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-an-impulse-buy-for-a-change-but-an-impulsive-1000-mile-29-hour-trip-to-bring-it-home/.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for those links...especially the first one...I had not seen it before, or even knew of it. I'll have to speak to the driver (Mark), about it when I see him. It seems that our company was not involved in the production as much as Martz and Greyhound, and the Trailways Association office was...
Click to expand...

Hey, the bus says Pine Hill Trailways, not Adirondack Trailways. I don't know what happened there. It's a J4500 with National Seating. Yeah, now I understand when drivers complain about the "tall pillar" dashboard.

By the way, the last bus, overnight Richmond-Nashville, was a Richmond-Dallas X3-45. So there's definitely some X3-45's based in Dallas in addition to the Northeast. Tons of spottings from that area.


----------



## railiner

Mark is an Adirondack driver, using a Pine Hill bus on an Adirondack run (number 121). He is on the return trip to NYC from Oneonta, in that video.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Mark is an Adirondack driver, using a Pine Hill bus on an Adirondack run (number 121). He is on the return trip to NYC from Oneonta, in that video.


I thought Oneonta-New York was a Pine Hill route. But I found out that 121 is a local via Grand Gorge and Kingston. So, what's 121B? Says there's a connection at Kingston?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You mean like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13205424073/sizes/l?
> 
> Or this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13552785725/sizes/l?
> 
> Apparently it only has Wi-Fi but no power outlets or extra legroom. So I'm guessing it's not rebuilt, just repainted and had a Wi-Fi router added.


That's what the bus looked like, right down to the "Charter Services" under the Greyhound logotype.
It makes since that these buses are setup like this. I'm guessing these buses were the best of the best of the 102DL3's that weren't wheelchair equipped. Charter groups likely want more seats per bus and these buses likely see very light service (short drives and a lot of time parked). I wonder if the seats were resurfaced with leather. Not sure if the unrebuilt 102DL3 was in charter service, I didn't see the destination sign or if it was wheelchair equipped.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I found a series of Trailways promo vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGOmxz_gXyk.
> 
> Also someone who seems to like the D4505 too much: http://www.trivalleycentral.com/opinion/columns/autocouple-he-says-greyhounds-race-to-comfort-forefront/article_69915c54-c4f5-11e3-a51d-0019bb2963f4.html.
> 
> And this had a segment praising the D4505 too: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/auto-biography/our-new-future-cc-2013-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-an-impulse-buy-for-a-change-but-an-impulsive-1000-mile-29-hour-trip-to-bring-it-home/.


As far as people praising the D4505... different strokes for different folks!Interesting that on BOTH trips... someone lit up a smoke in the back (those pesky passengers!) and both writers appear to be gear heads since they talked about the engines (calling it quiet and smooth).

Both of these men are good examples of "choice passengers" and it sounds like that Greyhound's improved buses impressed and professional drivers kept a potentially bad situation from turning into a "never again" moment.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hi Ricky, I believe you are mistaken about the Charter Series DL3's. Greyhound drivers say the Charter Services DL3's are the worst of the worst DL3's, too damaged for a rebuild, and were thus not rebuilt, but only repainted and "slightly refurbished". This makes sense because if they are almost dead the only way to keep them making money without having to scrap the whole bus is to run Greyhound's limited charter operations.

I'm pretty sure Greyhound already rebuilt all the wheelchair-lift equipped DL3's, due to fleet shortages caused by ADA. The remaining white DL3's are all "illegal" (no wheelchair lift) and may be rebuilt with lifts as part of the last batch this summer, or they will simply be repainted and relegated to Charter Services. Greyhound will at least make sure their whole fleet is blue and Wi-Fi equipped as soon as possible, for PR purposes. Then they can say "Wi-Fi on every bus, every route, every schedule, everywhere we go!"

I heard from a D4505 driver on Flickr that his passengers frequently comment positively about his coach, even though he agrees the 102DL3 is far more comfortable.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Three pointed stars that will burn at Pittsburgh on the New York-Los Angeles run.


Pfui. MCI may be the big bus builder in the US and Canada. But throughout Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Latin America, the dominant bus builder is Mercedes-Benz. The second largest IIRC is Volvo. There is but one reason MCI remains the dominant American player- Buy American requirements force practically all commuter lines to buy them.
That Mercedes remains the dominant builder in countries besides Germany, countries where Mercedes does not imply prestige so strongly outside of large luxury cars, means that there is a reason besides the badge that people are willing to pay extra for a Mercedes product.

But to a kid who thinks that the economical way to run a business is to run old equipment into the ground, I doubt I can ever get through your prejudices.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

How long will it take for the entire fleet to be blue and to have Wifi? I assume it shouldn't be long, since Greyhound has been making progress. I've seen some blue 102-DL3s running around.


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## Swadian Hardcore

It's supposed to be done by September 2014, except for spare buses, as in _not _MCI 102DL3, D4500, D4505, MCI-Dina G4500, and Prevost X3-45.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

We're departing on the Greyhound LD to Denver tonight. I'm going to try proving to others that long bus rides ain't that bad at all. Best way to prove it: a long Greyhound bus ride with other people. God Bless America! God Bless Greyhound!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

That doesn't prove anything other than you enjoy it. To prove it to somebody else you'd have to take them with you. I've done it. I think it's fine except for the fact that I can't lay down.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark is an Adirondack driver, using a Pine Hill bus on an Adirondack run (number 121). He is on the return trip to NYC from Oneonta, in that video.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Oneonta-New York was a Pine Hill route. But I found out that 121 is a local via Grand Gorge and Kingston. So, what's 121B? Says there's a connection at Kingston?
Click to expand...

Adirondack runs Oneonta/Kingston mainly along Highway 23. Pine Hill uses mostly Highway 28. Both run from Oneonta to Kingston, then the same stops on to The City.

The 'B' on the timetable is for internal accounting use....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hi Ricky, I believe you are mistaken about the Charter Series DL3's. Greyhound drivers say the Charter Services DL3's are the worst of the worst DL3's, too damaged for a rebuild, and were thus not rebuilt, but only repainted and "slightly refurbished". This makes sense because if they are almost dead the only way to keep them making money without having to scrap the whole bus is to run Greyhound's limited charter operations.


I wouldn't see why Greyhound would want to stick charter customers (a very competitive industry) on the "worst of the worst".

I have no evidence about which coaches did and did not get refurbished... but ABC always said that Greyhound sent them the "worst of the worst". The thinking being that it was most fiscally prudent to rebuild the coaches that had the highest ongoing maintenance costs.

But I could be wrong.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm pretty sure Greyhound already rebuilt all the wheelchair-lift equipped DL3's, due to fleet shortages caused by ADA. The remaining white DL3's are all "illegal" (no wheelchair lift) and may be rebuilt with lifts as part of the last batch this summer, or they will simply be repainted and relegated to Charter Services. Greyhound will at least make sure their whole fleet is blue and Wi-Fi equipped as soon as possible, for PR purposes. Then they can say "Wi-Fi on every bus, every route, every schedule, everywhere we go!"


I think they can say that as soon as the buses used on scheduled services are refurbished. It really doesn't count if the charter buses aren't WiFi equipped... although it's better for Greyhound's brand to have all the charter buses repainted.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard from a D4505 driver on Flickr that his passengers frequently comment positively about his coach, even though he agrees the 102DL3 is far more comfortable.


Yup. Customers like a *new* bus with all the bells and whistles (leather seats, outlets and WiFi) and they only care that the bus is *decently* comfortable.

Frankly I blame the airline industry... but many leisure customers don't care that the airline removed an inch of legroom as long as they added setback TV's and WiFi.

Most people don't travel Greyhound enough to realize that the Patriot seats are more comfortable than the Premier... they just think "nice! this bus has leather seats, not those crappy cloth ones."



Green Maned Lion said:


> What Greyhound needs is a fleet awash with three pointed stars. It would attract passengers by the train load.


Except that Daimler refuses to allow Setra to use the three pointed star logo in the USA.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Pfui. MCI may be the big bus builder in the US and Canada. But throughout Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Latin America, the dominant bus builder is Mercedes-Benz. The second largest IIRC is Volvo. There is but one reason MCI remains the dominant American player- Buy American requirements force practically all commuter lines to buy them.


Okay so MCI can sell commuter coaches to public transit agencies... what's your point?

We are talking about a privately owned line-haul operator that can choose to buy anything they want... so why does Greyhound continue to place orders from Prevost and MCI... and not from Setra? Clearly management has a reason for not buying Daimler's product.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> It's supposed to be done by September 2014, except for spare buses, as in _not _MCI 102DL3, D4500, D4505, MCI-Dina G4500, and Prevost X3-45.


It amuses me that you continue to refer to the G4500 as being built by "MCI-Dina". As much as MCI would rather forget the G4500 (and the F3500)... it's still their product. By 2001, MCI had merged with Dina and the plant in Mexico was being run by MCI. It wasn't like it was a bus being built under contract by another company.


----------



## railiner

I have seen the MB logo on the engine doors of the Setra buses, but not on the front. Even though owned by Daimler Benz, the Setra's are considered as Kassbohrer buses. If you look at the home web sites, Kassbohrer-Setra has a separate site from the actual Mercedes-Benz buses, which have not been imported into the US for a long time.

They had a brief foray into the US in the late sixties-early seventies. I recall Gray Line of Washington and I believe Boston tried out their model O-302 touring coaches. The Port Authority of NY &NJ had some MB transit buses used as intra-airport shuttles at their airports....oh, and Greyhound tested a Mercedes engine in one of the two prototype MC-6X Supercruiser's in 1967. It spent most of the three month trial on the New York/Chicago Nonstop in the shop, unfortunately....the other prototype had a Detroit Diesel 12v-71, which proved reliable and won the competition for the 100 production models to follow.

I can't be certain, but perhaps the Setra's with the Mercedes Star have an MB engine. That may be why they can have that logo on the engine door. But I am not sure if some of the Setra's with that logo may have a Detroit '60 Series' for power.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

In Denver right now. D4505 #86307 through dispatch SFD-DEN. Damaged but ran well. Full load the whole way. On time arrivals. Slept 7.5 hours in segments. Sagging new seats. Smooth ride, great drivers. Loved Berthoud Pass.

Many blue G4500's in Denver. Some EXTRAORDINARILY bad white G4500's sitting in SLC. Not much DL3's or D4505's. Broke down X3-45 sitting in SLC, no visible number.

Most pax took 1314 in SLC instead of the faster 1318. Few pax from local stops. 1318, blue G #7199, was delayed and arrived at the same time as 1314, our bus. Many missed connections. Extra bus for 1684 to New York.

More details to follow.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I just got word that there are two Volvo 9700 demos for Greyhound, in Miami right now.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> In Denver right now. D4505 #86307 through dispatch SFD-DEN. Damaged but ran well. Full load the whole way. On time arrivals. Slept 7.5 hours in segments. Sagging new seats. Smooth ride, great drivers. Loved Berthoud Pass.


The highest point on the Greyhound System.....http://www.coloradoguy.com/berthoud-pass.htm Prior to the opening of the Eisenhower Tunnel which Interstate 70 passes thru, the old US-6 over Loveland Pass was the highest.... Greyhound inherited all their Colorado mountain routes from Continental Trailways. Greyhound used the "Overland Route" thru Wyoming, and also Raton Pass to go west from Denver...


----------



## metrolinecoach111

railiner said:


> I have seen the MB logo on the engine doors of the Setra buses, but not on the front. Even though owned by Daimler Benz, the Setra's are considered as Kassbohrer buses. If you look at the home web sites, Kassbohrer-Setra has a separate site from the actual Mercedes-Benz buses, which have not been imported into the US for a long time.
> 
> I can't be certain, but perhaps the Setra's with the Mercedes Star have an MB engine. That may be why they can have that logo on the engine door. But I am not sure if some of the Setra's with that logo may have a Detroit '60 Series' for power.....


All of Academy's Setras have the Mercedes Benz logo on the front and the back:

Front: http://www.bus-bild.de/bilder/setra-s-417-hdh-us-15806.jpg

Back: http://busexplorer.com/NABus/Images/MidSize/AcademySetra-2.jpg

Then again, I'd say this is more the exception than the rule - they specifically requested that the logo be placed on their units (all 50 of them). As you very well know from being in the industry and working with them from time to time, whatever FT wants, FT gets.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

metrolinecoach111 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen the MB logo on the engine doors of the Setra buses, but not on the front. Even though owned by Daimler Benz, the Setra's are considered as Kassbohrer buses. If you look at the home web sites, Kassbohrer-Setra has a separate site from the actual Mercedes-Benz buses, which have not been imported into the US for a long time.
> 
> I can't be certain, but perhaps the Setra's with the Mercedes Star have an MB engine. That may be why they can have that logo on the engine door. But I am not sure if some of the Setra's with that logo may have a Detroit '60 Series' for power.....
> 
> 
> 
> All of Academy's Setras have the Mercedes Benz logo on the front and the back:
> 
> Front: http://www.bus-bild.de/bilder/setra-s-417-hdh-us-15806.jpg
> 
> Back: http://busexplorer.com/NABus/Images/MidSize/AcademySetra-2.jpg
> 
> Then again, I'd say this is more the exception than the rule - they specifically requested that the logo be placed on their units (all 50 of them). As you very well know from being in the industry and working with them from time to time, whatever F.T. wants, F.T. gets.
Click to expand...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Denver right now. D4505 #86307 through dispatch SFD-DEN. Damaged but ran well. Full load the whole way. On time arrivals. Slept 7.5 hours in segments. Sagging new seats. Smooth ride, great drivers. Loved Berthoud Pass.
> 
> 
> 
> The highest point on the Greyhound System.....http://www.coloradoguy.com/berthoud-pass.htm Prior to the opening of the Eisenhower Tunnel which Interstate 70 passes thru, the old US-6 over Loveland Pass was the highest.... Greyhound inherited all their Colorado mountain routes from Continental Trailways. Greyhound used the "Overland Route" thru Wyoming, and also Raton Pass to go west from Denver...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know, great scenery. Today's 1314 arrival from Reno was a DL3, would have preferred that bus. More comfortable. When we were departing Reno we passed a DL3 arriving as 1345, I think it went back to Denver and arrived today.

1318 was horribly late today, three hours late, D4505 coming in from Portland.

Oh yeah the 1314 "local" was not local at all, only stopped at Vernal, Craig, and Steamboat between SLC and DEN, along with RS Heber City, RS Vernal, and RS Granby. No reason to take 1318 after SLC.

Computer at the hotel isn't working well, will have to post Trip Report later.


----------



## rickycourtney

Took an impulse trip down to Portland today for the Oregon Brewers Festival (which was amazing!). Took Greyhound schedule 1443 down and BoltBus back up. I'll give a full report tomorrow.


----------



## railiner

metrolinecoach111 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen the MB logo on the engine doors of the Setra buses, but not on the front. Even though owned by Daimler Benz, the Setra's are considered as Kassbohrer buses. If you look at the home web sites, Kassbohrer-Setra has a separate site from the actual Mercedes-Benz buses, which have not been imported into the US for a long time.
> 
> I can't be certain, but perhaps the Setra's with the Mercedes Star have an MB engine. That may be why they can have that logo on the engine door. But I am not sure if some of the Setra's with that logo may have a Detroit '60 Series' for power.....
> 
> 
> 
> All of Academy's Setras have the Mercedes Benz logo on the front and the back:
> 
> Front: http://www.bus-bild.de/bilder/setra-s-417-hdh-us-15806.jpg
> 
> Back: http://busexplorer.com/NABus/Images/MidSize/AcademySetra-2.jpg
> 
> Then again, I'd say this is more the exception than the rule - they specifically requested that the logo be placed on their units (all 50 of them). As you very well know from being in the industry and working with them from time to time, whatever FT wants, FT gets.
Click to expand...

Good catch! I'd not noticed that....

***

Maybe 'FT' "made them an offer, they couldn't refuse".....


----------



## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> metrolinecoach111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen the MB logo on the engine doors of the Setra buses, but not on the front. Even though owned by Daimler Benz, the Setra's are considered as Kassbohrer buses. If you look at the home web sites, Kassbohrer-Setra has a separate site from the actual Mercedes-Benz buses, which have not been imported into the US for a long time.
> 
> I can't be certain, but perhaps the Setra's with the Mercedes Star have an MB engine. That may be why they can have that logo on the engine door. But I am not sure if some of the Setra's with that logo may have a Detroit '60 Series' for power.....
> 
> 
> 
> All of Academy's Setras have the Mercedes Benz logo on the front and the back:
> 
> Front: http://www.bus-bild.de/bilder/setra-s-417-hdh-us-15806.jpg
> 
> Back: http://busexplorer.com/NABus/Images/MidSize/AcademySetra-2.jpg
> 
> Then again, I'd say this is more the exception than the rule - they specifically requested that the logo be placed on their units (all 50 of them). As you very well know from being in the industry and working with them from time to time, whatever FT wants, FT gets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good catch! I'd not noticed that....***
> 
> Maybe 'FT' "made them an offer, they couldn't refuse".....
Click to expand...

Those emblems are dinky, especially compared to the huge "SETRA" nearby. If Daimler was really interested in branding these buses as "Mercedes Benz" they would need to be a lot bigger and the SETRA nameplates would need to be dropped.


----------



## rickycourtney

So as I mentioned last night I took an impulse down to Portland yesterday to attend the legendary Oregon Brewers Festival. A bit about the festival, there are 88 craft beers on tap from 85 breweries across the country (plus dozens of rare, speciality beers) all at Portland's waterfront park... it was INCREDIBLE. If you're a fan of craft beer... this needs to be on your bucket list.




I was initially hesitant to go since the weather was not supposed to be good (beer wasn't the only thing pouring!) but my fiancée encouraged me to go anyway.

I went to go look at ticket prices and times at around 8:30 pm on Tuesday. Amtrak's schedule wasn't ideal and tickets were $76 round trip. BoltBus had a good schedule, the fastest travel time (3hr, 15min) but right as I went to book my ticket, one leg sold out! At that point BoltBus sends you to Greyhound to see if there is a schedule that works. I ended up grabbing a ticket on schedule 1443 which takes a bit longer (4hr, 5min).

When I arrived to find the new Seattle Greyhound station PACKED with people and very few seats available so I opted to stand (plus the Greyhound's metal seats don't look comfortable... at all). Other than that, it's a nice enough place to wait for a bus. They have TV's with CNN, vending machines, free WiFi and power outlets... pretty much all the amenities we've come to expect at airports.

When boarding time came, we got D4505 #86363, the passengers going to Stanfield, OR were stuck with a busted up white G4500.




Overall the trip on Greyhound was fine... the driver was excellent (he didn't take ANY crap, but seemed nice overall and I commend him for the masterful job he did during several torrential downpours), the bus was PACKED for most of the trip and the D4505 rode smooth. The passengers were okay, some were a bit rowdy and rough around the edges (but nothing I haven't seen a thousand times before on King County Metro buses.) The trip ran mostly onetime although we arrived in Portland 15 minutes late due to traffic.

But here is my biggest complaint... the seats are HORRIBLE. The bus had the original Premier seats and they are just as hard as a rock, no lumbar support, no footrest and they barely recline. I just can't fathom why Greyhound continues to buy these seats. The only logical explanation is for safety over comfort.

My other smaller complaints...

* Too many long stops. The bus is scheduled to make a 10 minute stop in Tacoma and Olympia but since the driver was running early they turned into 15/20 minute "smoke break" stops. When we arrived at Centralia we were running a little late but that's the "rest stop" so we stopped for another 10 people had a chance to run into the Chevron to buy snacks. We only made one "brief stop" which was at Kelso.

* The power outlets are totally hit and miss. Mine didn't work, the pair behind me didn't work, but the pair across the aisle and ahead of me did. Thankfully the guy ahead of me let me plug in.

* Greyhound allowed passengers to bring whatever luggage they wanted onboard... to the point where it was spilling out into the aisles. On BoltBus and Amtrak's thruway buses you're allowed to bring smaller items onboard, but all suitcases have to go under the bus. Also I get why Greyhound likes the bungee cord luggage racks... but I still would prefer enclosed luggage racks. I had to help an elderly lady with her small suitcase which ended up becoming the two of us fighting the bungee cords to get her bag into the bin. It would have been much simpler with a door.

On the way back I took Greyhound's BoltBus service. Overall I think that Greyhound does a great job with this service. The driver's are clearly amongst Greyhound's most experienced and the best at customer service. Our driver was telling jokes over the PA and was very helpful loading and unloading luggage and bikes. My only complaint is that the bus didn't have the BLUE system installed and my iPhone wouldn't connect to the WiFi.

On the BoltBus route we rode in an X3-45 (#0862)... and while the D4505 is a good bus... the Prevost is better.

* The D4505 has a nice ride, but the X3-45 is smooth like silk.

* The A/C vents along the windows are smaller (easier to keep clean). This is what the D4505's looked like... YUCK!




* The overhead A/C was stronger and easier to control.

* The curved windows give you the same feeling you get in Amtrak's sightseer cars (I enjoyed laying back and looking up at the sky.)

Overall, the concerns about luggage capacity are totally overblown. With a nearly sold out bus, there was no problem with the luggage compartment overflowing.

Also I've attached some pictures of the Portland Greyhound depot (with a 102DL3, G4500, X3-45 and D4505) for Swadian to geek out on!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Really nice pics and info! Portland is a really great place to visit when the weather is nice whether you get there on a train or bus! I'd imagine even I would take a Bus on a short trip (but Not Long Distance!)if it was much cheaper than a Cascade or Starlight ticket!


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## rickycourtney

jimhudson said:


> I'd imagine even I would take a Bus on a short trip (but Not Long Distance!)if it was much cheaper than a Cascade or Starlight ticket!


To that point Jim... my round trip ticket cost under $40 and I booked less than 12 hours before departure. If you do a bit of planning you can get tickets for a lot cheaper than that.For comparison Amtrak's current low-bucket "value" fare between Seattle and Portland is $52.

It's also worth mentioning that takes 3 hr, 50 min on the Cascades (4 hr, 15 min on the Starlight) vs. 3 hr, 15 min on BoltBus. Those times will improve when the Point Defiance bypass is finished (of course one of the most scenic portions of the Cascades will also be eliminated.)

If you ask me, the addition of BoltBus to the corridor is a big reason why the ridership on the Cascades has taken a big hit. The bus is cheaper, faster and offers many of the same amenities (free WiFi, power outlets).

That being said... I could never see myself spending more than 4 hours on a Greyhound bus... those seats are just too uncomfortable. Anything longer than 4 hours, I'll fly or take a train.


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## railiner

Nice report, thanks for posting....

So the new terminal at Seattle is at capacity? Only four bays? How's that working out?

The Portland terminal appears to be a lot larger....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, I rode Greyhound down to Colorado Springs today for the Cog Railway. On the way down t was White G4500 #7064 headed to Dallas, on the way back was Prevost X3-45 #86264 headed from Dallas.

Honesty, I was disappointed with the X3-45. Don't get me wrong , it's a great bus. The ride was smooth as silk, like Ricky described. But the windows were the problem. They were too high and my shoulder was stuck up against the window bar when I tried to looked outside. The D4505 windows are lower, ad the window bar o the D4505 can actually was used as a armrest. NOT on the X3-45. The seats also sagged. I could not sleep on the X3-45 (sagging seats) nor could I view the scenery (misplaced windows). Riding the X3-45 feels like riding Amtrak without a Sightseer Lounge, and I don't like riding Amtrak.

I actually really enjoyed White G #7064. It was beat up but clean and smooth-riding. The seats were worlds better than the new ones on the X3-45. Also, the windows were bigger. I actually preferred this bus over the X3-45. Sorry guys, but this is my honest opinion. Also, I prefer the 102DL3 over the X3-45, D4505 is about the same. Blue G4500 must be great. I can understand why Greyhound would fully rebuild the G4500 now.

Also, every bus out of DEN has been PACKED except for the X3-45 arrival from DAL. NEED more buses here!

Burlington got some new plain white J4500 Restyled buses running to Indy. Black Hills running D4505's only.

I'm being honest here. I am NOT happy with the X3-45, and I believe it needs either better seats or better windows. I AM happy with the White G, despite heavy exterior damage.

Go Greyhound! God Bless America!


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But the windows were the problem. They were too high and my shoulder was stuck up against the window bar when I tried to looked outside. The D4505 windows are lower, ad the window bar o the D4505 can actually was used as a armrest. NOT on the X3-45. The seats also sagged. I could not sleep on the X3-45 (sagging seats) nor could I view the scenery (misplaced windows). Riding the X3-45 feels like riding Amtrak without a Sightseer Lounge, and I don't like riding Amtrak.


I wholeheartedly disagree. I found the bottom of the windows to be at a comfortable position for me to rest my arm on. I also found it to be better for this purpose because the top of the emergency escape bar is enclosed (it even has a nice concave shape that fits the curve of your arm) unlike the bar on the MCI (which as I pointed out earlier was sticky and covered in crud.)

The seats aren't a Prevost vs. MCI problem. Greyhound chooses which seats are equipped. I think it's time they start buying something else (or at least find a way to further retrofit and improve the Premier). Those seats are so incredibly uncomfortable as to be a deal breaker for me. I don't know how you spent nearly 24 hours in one... you're a stronger man than I.


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## Green Maned Lion

Or different anatomically.


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## railiner

I noticed that our newer buses also have those 'Premier' seats....I have to agree...they are not nearly as comfortable as our pre-2009 seats were. My biggest gripe is the lack of 'shin-room'....I cannot stretch my legs fully under the seats ahead, as I could in the older type seats..

There's a photo of them, with the 'Premier' name clearly visible on our website... http://trailwaysny.com/index.php/the-fleet/


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## Green Maned Lion

Laminate floors, vinyl seats.


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## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Laminate floors, vinyl seats.


Yup....gotta keep those tree-lover's and vegans happy.....


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## Green Maned Lion

They claim leather and wood, shockingly.


----------



## railiner

Don't be shocked...to borrow a quote from the film "North by Northwest", what they are claiming isn't a lie, it's an "expedient exaggeration"......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I just rode Philadelphia-based X3-45 #86284 from Denver to Reno. Ugh, sagging seats again. Had to sit on my extra clothes to counteract it. I also counteracted the window position by riding shotgun with the driver. Much better ride, but not very smooth due to being ahead of the wheelbase. Driver was Kit again.

I'm so glad I rode shotgun, passenger HVAC went haywire, and the only working vents were the driver's. The radar was broken too. Kit said the guys in Denver don't know how to fix a X3-45, so they have to send it back to Philly for repairs. That's across the entire country. I think Greyhound should restrict X3-45's to areas that actually know how to run them. It was Kit's first X3-45 and he apparently did not like it, due to the HVAC and radar problems. Kit repeatedly said that he hates modern buses with lots of electronics, including the X3-45.

Also rode Blue G4500 #7029 Denver-Grand Junction Sked 1683 New York City-Los Angeles, return was on D4505 #86535 Sked 1312 Las Vegas-Denver. Had a nice long chat with the driver at Frisco on the return. Same driver both ways. More on that later, I'll just say the Blue G4500 is AWESOME! Driver said it's better than the D4505, and I agree.

Ricky, you may like the window position of the X3-45, I just don't. I think they should raise the seats or lower the windows.

By the way, Greyhound doesn't care about charters, they don't have any charter buses anyway. A DL3 is not a charter bus. They don't care so they use the worst equipment on charters. Every DL3 has gone through rebuild check-ups already, those too damaged for rebuilds are not going to be rebuilt, they will be refurbished and relegated to charter service.

Too bad no DL3's on this trip. Again, I will reaffirm that I am NOT a BIG fan of the X3-45, regardless of sagging seats. To me, it's about the same as a D4505, which I don't hate so much now after riding for 23 hours. Lavatory lights are too dark, people end up peeing and pooping on the floor by accident, especially kids, which were prevalent on all these runs. D4505 has brighter lav lights. LOL, "strong man" in sagging seats for 23 hours, what about a certain seatmate, Chris, who rode transcon round-trip with sagging seats? Well, his Denver-New York City was a 102DL3 (#6541).

Trip report later.


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## rickycourtney

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I'll eventually have to take Greyhound again (it's the only feasible way for me to get to Olympia without renting a car) so maybe I'll get to ride on a refurbished G4500 and give you my thoughts.

I honestly think that the D4505 is a good bus (the complaints I've heard here are way overblown) but I think that the X3-45 is just a bit better. My biggest complaint is that the seats on the newer Greyhound buses SUCK (the same seats are on the D4505 and X3-45). It's a total deal breaker for me on a trip longer than 4 hours. I'm totally willing to deal with it for a short, cheap trip to Portland or Vancouver... but anything longer than that would be torture.

I have to ask... did anyone actually poop on the floor or are you just saying that for dramatics?

The Greyhound D4505 I was on had a burned out light in the bathroom so it was rather dark in there (just one small LED plus natural light from the frosted window)... but I don't think anyone would have been in danger of missing the bowl. On the other hand, I found the lighting inside the lavatory of the X3-45 sufficient at night.

Also, the restroom was clearly NOT serviced between the time the bus arrived in Seattle and departed for LA... and while it wasn't horrible... it didn't smell good. The problem was exacerbated when people "flushed" the bowl.

I did want to say that both of the Greyhound drivers I encountered were top notch. I was really impressed by their professionalism. They both did a masterful job driving in some pretty lousy weather and were very friendly.


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## Swadian Hardcore

On the first Prevost that was running Dallas-Denver (got on at Colorado Springs), there was both poop and pee on the floor of the lavatory, even though the bus had been cleaned in Amarillo. On the Denver-Reno bus, there was only pee on the floor, which also hahappens on the D4505's.

Perhaps the lav light failed on that run and caused it, or maybe one of the toddlers on board didn't know what to do.

But for some reason, the Blue G4500 lavatory was very clean. The seats had amazing legroom, I could lock my knees with the footrests without brushing the seat in front. Then again, I'm not a huge guy.

I personally think that if one can counteract the sagging seats by piling clothes or whatnot onto the bottom, the X3-45 would be great for night travel, the D4505, IMO, is better for day travel, due to better view range. I know you may prefer the X3-45's higher window bar, but you can't say the view range of passing traffic is that great. I like to watch passing traffic, hard on a X3-45 without hurting my shoulder.

I think you would love the Blue G because it has easy-to-clean window bars like the X, while set lower like the D, and rides amount the same as a J which isn't too bad. High deck, lots of cargo space, drivers love it too. Plus, there is no more plastic smell. GREAT JOB on the G4500, Greyhound!


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## rickycourtney

I had no issue with the position of the windows in relation to the height of the seat on the X3-45. I had no problem looking out the window at the scenery (and traffic) even with my seat reclined.

I'm not sure how much any manufacturer could do for those kinds of restroom problems. Passengers will be passengers.

I feel like you're being a bit too apologetic for the horrible seats. No passenger should have to do anything to make the seats comfortable... they should just BE comfortable.

I wish Greyhound would replace them or at least stop buying them... but I guess they think the increase in safety these seats offer outweigh the loss of comfort.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Apologetic? NO! I'm not going to be apologetic about those new seats, you know my favorite bus is the old 102DL3, and you know I also really like the Blue G4500 which has the old seats. I'm just suggesting a solution to deal with the crappy seats that are ruining Greyhound's new buses, X3-45 or D4505 whatever.

IMO they ought to replace all the bottom cushions with American Seating 2005 bottom cushions. Keep the seats, just replace the sagging bottom cushion. But in the meanwhile, I'll have to bring my own cushion for future rides, especially long rides. Gotta do what you gotta do.

You know, Torino G Plus and A2-TEN both offer the same containment as the Premier LS, but are far more comfortable by your own report. I have never sat in those AFAIK.

Sorry, I still ain't a fan of the X3-45, not with haywire HVAC. But the D4505 ain't no good either, I saw #86379 at the Denver Garage, BURNED to a HULK!


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## Caesar La Rock

Too much electronics is what's causing issues on transit buses these days on top of motorcoaches. There wasn't a lot of electronics used on Greyhound back in the days when they used the old MC-9s, MC-12s, 102A3s, and Eagle coaches. Especially prior to the 90s.

Never rode on a DL3 for Greyhound, but I did ride one for La Cubana. Those buses were spotless from what I remembered. The Van Hool C2045 I rode on for Mears was clean. The blue and white seats were comfortable too. I didn't inspect the bathroom, but I can safely assume the bathrooms were clean as well.


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## railiner

So Swadian, you spent some time at my old territory (Denver).....

Did you happen to take any photo's of the Denver Bus Center? I was there for the grand opening celebration in the Colorado Centennial year 1976, when then Governor Rich Lamm cut the ribbon. Continental Trailways used the gates on the Arapahoe Street side, and Greyhound used the Curtis Street side.At that time, there were separate ticket offices, and bus package express facilities. Greyhound Post House operated the cafeteria, the snack bar, the liquor bar, and the gift shop. Trailways operated a travel bureau for inclusive bus tours. There was also a Traveler's Aid office. It was quite the facility at the time, replacing the old Continental terminal at 17th and Broadway, and the Greyhound terminal at 17th and Glenarm.

You mentioned you were at the garage....I am assuming it is the former Continental Trailways garage at 2450 Curtis Street..... any photo's of that? I worked there from 1974 until 1979.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hi Railiner, I could not openly take photos of Denver Bus Center due to being warded off by security. However, I was able to sneak in two shots, one of a Greyhound X3-45, and one of a Arrow-Black Hills D4505.

I was indeed at the Denver Maintenance Center, 2420 Curtis Street, where I took photos of every bus in the lot, including destroyed D4505 #86379. I did not take photos of the shop across the street, because it was quite run-down and no buses were visible.

I will upload the shots to my Flickr photostream, Swadian H, over time, but I can send you a PM with all those photos if you would like. There's just too much to post here.

Hi CJ, well La Cubana made the mistake of replacing DL3's with J4500's that are even worse. DL3 was the first MCI with the drive-by-wire Detroit 60. Greyhound is trying to equalize mileage by dispatching buses all around the country, but as you may know, that has backfired for the X3-45 because it has very advanced electronic and the Denver mechanics have no idea how to maintain them. So #86284 will need to wait at least three days before the radar and HVAC are fixed, being based from my old city, Philadelphia.


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## railiner

THE CJ said:


> Too much electronics is what's causing issues on transit buses these days on top of motorcoaches. There wasn't a lot of electronics used on Greyhound back in the days when they used the old MC-9s, MC-12s, 102A3s, and Eagle coaches. Especially prior to the 90s.
> 
> Never rode on a DL3 for Greyhound, but I did ride one for La Cubana. Those buses were spotless from what I remembered. The Van Hool C2045 I rode on for Mears was clean. The blue and white seats were comfortable too. I didn't inspect the bathroom, but I can safely assume the bathrooms were clean as well.


Yeah....I'm another one of those "dinosaur's", that lament the passing of the simpler coaches of the sixties and seventies.....I liked it when we shifted gears, used muscle power to open and close the entrance door, and had none of the ECU issues that modern coaches have...

I liked it when you could open the windows if the A/C happened to fail. The toilets were simple, without the flush complications, the wiring was not 'multiplexed', etc...

Oh, and talk about seating....the old American and National seating companies both had seats that were the most comfortable, this side of the railroad "Sleepy Hollow Seats"...


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> .Hi CJ, well La Cubana made the mistake of replacing DL3's with J4500's that are even worse. DL3 was the first MCI with the drive-by-wire Detroit 60. Greyhound is trying to equalize mileage by dispatching buses all around the country, but as you may know, that has backfired for the X3-45 because it has very advanced electronic and the Denver mechanics have no idea how to maintain them. So #86284 will need to wait at least three days before the radar and HVAC are fixed, being based from my old city, Philadelphia.


The first DL3s built came with 6V92TA/8V92TAs from what I've heard, but they switched over to the Series 60 by 93. The DL3s at La Cubana were very nice when I first saw them. That paint scheme they had was awesome as well as those Alcoa rims.

Those were also the first buses I ever rode with Alcoas. The next time I would ride a bus with Alcoas would be in New York City, but that's another story. I'm not sure how J4500s perform, but I'm about to find out when Lynx's three J4500s arrive either late this year or in 2015.


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## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much electronics is what's causing issues on transit buses these days on top of motorcoaches. There wasn't a lot of electronics used on Greyhound back in the days when they used the old MC-9s, MC-12s, 102A3s, and Eagle coaches. Especially prior to the 90s.
> 
> Never rode on a DL3 for Greyhound, but I did ride one for La Cubana. Those buses were spotless from what I remembered. The Van Hool C2045 I rode on for Mears was clean. The blue and white seats were comfortable too. I didn't inspect the bathroom, but I can safely assume the bathrooms were clean as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....I'm another one of those "dinosaur's", that lament the passing of the simpler coaches of the sixties and seventies.....I liked it when we shifted gears, used muscle power to open and close the entrance door, and had none of the ECU issues that modern coaches have...
> 
> I liked it when you could open the windows if the A/C happened to fail. The toilets were simple, without the flush complications, the wiring was not 'multiplexed', etc...
> 
> Oh, and talk about seating....the old American and National seating companies both had seats that were the most comfortable, this side of the railroad "Sleepy Hollow Seats"...
Click to expand...

I remembered riding those old MCIs as a kid and man they were unique. Besides the usual MC-5C, MC-7/8/9/96A3/102A3s that I saw, other companies owned motorcoaches like Prevost LeMirages, Prevost H3-41s, Eagles, LAG Panoramics, Jonckheere Deauville coaches, Neoplan motorcoaches and luxury coaches, MAN motorcoaches, and Mears' Cametal CX40s.

1999 was the last year I traveled somewhere on a motorcoach. I would not travel again until a school field trip a few years later, where I rode on a Van Hool T2145 owned by Dynamic Bus Lines to St. Augustine. Then my trip on that Mears Van Hool C2045 was my most recent one.


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## Swadian Hardcore

THE CJ said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> .Hi CJ, well La Cubana made the mistake of replacing DL3's with J4500's that are even worse. DL3 was the first MCI with the drive-by-wire Detroit 60. Greyhound is trying to equalize mileage by dispatching buses all around the country, but as you may know, that has backfired for the X3-45 because it has very advanced electronic and the Denver mechanics have no idea how to maintain them. So #86284 will need to wait at least three days before the radar and HVAC are fixed, being based from my old city, Philadelphia.
> 
> 
> 
> The first DL3s built came with 6V92TA/8V92TAs from what I've heard, but they switched over to the Series 60 by 93. The DL3s at La Cubana were very nice when I first saw them. That paint scheme they had was awesome as well as those Alcoa rims.
> 
> Those were also the first buses I ever rode with Alcoas. The next time I would ride a bus with Alcoas would be in New York City, but that's another story. I'm not sure how J4500s perform, but I'm about to find out when Lynx's three J4500s arrive either late this year or in 2015.
Click to expand...

If the La Cubana DL3's were very nice, they should NOT have replaced them with J4500's. The J4500's are made out of fiberglass, like a NABI 45C-LFW that you'll find all over Los Angeles. Even Greyhound's Blue G4500's are far better for fiberglass buses (white G4500 sucks), not to mention the Prevost H3-45.

I did hear that the Restyled J4500 is a lot better, but La Cubana doesn't have those. Regarding that bus company, I found this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/nyregion/14cubana.html.

Appears that some of them have Torino VIP, others Torino Standard.


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## railiner

Nice link, thanks for posting it. Did you notice in frame number five of the slideshow, a shot of the co-driver's sleeper berth? The story did not go into the technical side of the operation, other than briefly mentioning that there were two driver's, with one 'taking a break' while the other drove....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Bad idea for driver fatigue I guess, because you can't sleep well in a J4500. On the way to/from Denver, our SLC-Steamboat drivers both stayed at the Holiday Inn.


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## rickycourtney

Yeah that doesn't seem like a good idea. The "co-driver" really can't be expected to get really restful sleep by kicking back in the front row. I guess if there was a real sleeping berth somewhere... it could work.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Americanos tried a real sleeping berth, but it was at the back right by the dirty, leaking Dina lavatory (Viaggio). I think if you will waste all the space for revenue seats to get a driver's sleeping berth, you might as well pay for a contracted hotel room, as little as $50 a night if the contract goes well.

The article says a ticket on Cubana, 25-hour ride, costs $159, you'll need about 4 seats to get that berth, wasted $636, could pay for at least ten nights with a Holiday Inn contract like Greyhound.

I wonder what the "competition" was for La Cubana, apparently it went bankrupt, so not Greyhound's New York-Miami Limited. Frankly, Greyhound's $82-99 fares would beat La Cubana anytime, since Cubana does not have the huge seats on Central/South American luxury buses. Greyhound does take 30 hours, but Greyhound wastes less daytime because it departs in the evening and arrives two days later in the early morning.

Edit: Seems like La Cubana does have at least one Restyled J, this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10497729606/in/photolist-gZDGH1-gZDBh3-gZDB5u-gyS1Jj-gyRrPQ-gyRPq6-gyRRdp.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Yeah that doesn't seem like a good idea. The "co-driver" really can't be expected to get really restful sleep by kicking back in the front row. I guess if there was a real sleeping berth somewhere... it could work.


There is a real sleeper berth on the La Cubana buses....look at that link, in the fifth slide....it is located just ahead of the restroom. It is a FHA-legal sleeper berth, just like on a tractor-trailer, that permits two driver's to go cross-country.

No, I wouldn't like to drive that way, thankyou....but the ride is still better than in any truck on the road.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that doesn't seem like a good idea. The "co-driver" really can't be expected to get really restful sleep by kicking back in the front row. I guess if there was a real sleeping berth somewhere... it could work.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a real sleeper berth on the La Cubana buses....look at that link, in the fifth slide....it is located just ahead of the restroom. It is a FHA-legal sleeper berth, just like on a tractor-trailer, that permits two driver's to go cross-country. No, I wouldn't like to drive that way, thankyou....but the ride is still better than in any truck on the road.....
Click to expand...

I just don't see the point of this. Why waste revenue seats for a sleeping berth when the driver is better off sleeping in a cheaper, more comfortable hotel room? And in a hotel room, he can get a shower, shave, and good food before and after each drive.


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## Green Maned Lion

You haven't driven some of the nicer products coming out of Volvo or Paccar, Railiner.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Still worse than a hotel room. I do agree a Kenworth W900 with a flat-screen TV has got to be nice.


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## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> You haven't driven some of the nicer products coming out of Volvo or Paccar, Railiner.


Nice, yes. But a truck is still a truck. Its wheelbase is is shorter than a bus, and its suspension, even with airbags, has to be calibrated to handle a much heavier GCW....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that doesn't seem like a good idea. The "co-driver" really can't be expected to get really restful sleep by kicking back in the front row. I guess if there was a real sleeping berth somewhere... it could work.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a real sleeper berth on the La Cubana buses....look at that link, in the fifth slide....it is located just ahead of the restroom. It is a FHA-legal sleeper berth, just like on a tractor-trailer, that permits two driver's to go cross-country. No, I wouldn't like to drive that way, thankyou....but the ride is still better than in any truck on the road.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I just don't see the point of this. Why waste revenue seats for a sleeping berth when the driver is better off sleeping in a cheaper, more comfortable hotel room? And in a hotel room, he can get a shower, shave, and good food before and after each drive.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree....I would never drive a bus (or truck) with a sleeper-berth operation. In La Cuban's case, it might make sense economically. The length of their run would require two driver changes. And they would have to establish a driver base either in NY or somewhere in NC, in additon to their home in Miami. And that would require addtional expense as well....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm not sure the combined cab and toungue weight would exceed that of a bus, actually.

Besides some of the newer trucks have suspended cabs. I've never slept in a truck, but a cabover with a suspended seat has an excellent ride, except when it pogos on occasion (the oscillation of the truck reaches the natural frequency of the air ride seats and so they magnify instead of canceling for a moment)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Interesting, I heard that a cab-over truck always rides worse than a conventional. There was a big group of CR England truckers on the Prevost from Denver until SLC, where they got off for Monday's driver training session.

Personally, I love the look of the Peterbilt 362 truck with its nice "loco nose": http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/alberta_big_rig_show/2013/day02/20130817_dsc_3202.jpg.


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## Green Maned Lion

They might. I wouldn't know. I've never owned a conventional. I'm just saying that the ride was generally smooth and comfy. I had no problem doing special markets in Ohio on a straight shot from Jersey with a stop for a meal in the middle.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're a trucker? Railiner is another trucker.


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## Green Maned Lion

I am a retailer. I started out in the flea market and over the course of that went from a sedan to a Ford Econoline van to a 14' Isuzu NPR to a 24' GMC T6500 before getting fully sick of doing outdoor flea markets and opening a retail store and selling the truck.

Oh, and by the way, that Isuzu NPR? I would say that driving it was similar to driving a jackhammer.


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## railiner

Swadian, what made you think I was a trucker? I still maintain my CDL class 'A', but the fact is, I haven't driven a truck since 1968! And then I only drove for a brief period, before getting into the bus industry...

As for COE vs conventional....The main purpose of the COE is to allow a longer trailer in the maximum combination length. The COE will have a shorter wheelbase than a conventional, and as a result, a choppier ride. The COE is easier to handle in tight quarter's, especially in backing. The conventional affords better crash-protection.

Anyway, COE's seem to have all but disappeared in recent years, except for some low-cab-forward's, and 'yard' tractor's. I really have not been following the truck scene in a long time to offer better insight....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I thought you were a trucker, with all those endorsements.....

But anyway, Greyhound PR appears to be indeed working overtime: http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/greyhound-bus-fleet-revamps-100-year-dog-learn/story?id=24719475.

http://www.freep.com/article/20140727/FEATURES07/307270013/greyhound-bus-improvements.

Check out the comments on the first link, HILARIOUS! "Free air fresheners", yeah right, Greyhound already has a "Tough Guy" air freshener on every bus. Man, ignorance!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Also, while riding the G4500, I noticed the real problem with the red handles for window escape, instead of having a window bar. The red handles are only placed on one side of each window, in the G4500, that is the rear end. There is no way to open the window from the front end. So if your seat is lined up with the front half of a window, you cannot escape out the window unless the guy behind you open the window, and if that seat is empty, you are screwed, especially with the high-backed seats.

See the attached photo and you'll understand what I'll talking about.


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## rickycourtney

Those red handles are pretty much the standard on transit buses. I agree they're not the best... but I'm not sure they're deficient. There must be a reason why bus builders prefer these red handles.

I'm not sure how to improve the situation. Maybe better labels on buses or emergency instruction cards? Safety spiels?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Some of our Greyhound drivers on this trip did make safety announcements, besides insisting, "No smoking on this bus, and that means ANYWHERE on this bus!"

You have to remember, transit buses do not have high-backed seats or parcel racks, so passengers in them can easily reach a red handle. Not in Greyhound.

Look at my photo, look at the two people in seats 11-12, how are they supposed to reach a red handle in the event of an emergency? Now I'm glad the G4500 doesn't have a front fuel tank, but a bus with a front fuel tank would explode or burn easily in a collision, rendering escape out the front entrance impossible.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Some of our Greyhound drivers on this trip did make safety announcements, besides insisting, "No smoking on this bus, and that means ANYWHERE on this bus!"


Same announcement my Greyhound driver gave after every. single. stop. I'm guessing it's an ongoing problem. But no safety announcements.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> You have to remember, transit buses do not have high-backed seats or parcel racks, so passengers in them can easily reach a red handle. Not in Greyhound.


Except the transit buses in Seattle that have high-backed seats and parcel racks. Haha.
I guess what I want to know is why manufacturers use this type of emergency escape over the other kind?

Also, the government must think these windows are satisfactory since they're still being installed on new buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A few of my drivers did give the safety ammouncements, but it's inconsistent. I don't think Kit did it, but Dale, Cynthia, and maybe one of the others did it IIRC.

I personally don't think it's a good idea unless there are red handles on both ends of the window. Also, transit buses in general, do not have high-backed seats or parcel racks, and in general, they do not operate at highway speeds. That is, in general.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Blue G interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14798081385/in/photostream/.

More photos to come in here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/.

Updated Blue G list: 6998 7027 7028 7029 7033 7035 7043 7049 7072 7075 7091 7094 7104 7111 7125 7134 7137 7146 7151 7155 7159 7171 7191 7193 7199 7202 7203 7212 7213 7216 7221 7265 7273 30515


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## Green Maned Lion

What's with the cruddy vinyl seats? I remember the Dog having beautiful cloth seats!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Green Maned Lion said:


> What's with the cruddy vinyl seats? I remember the Dog having beautiful cloth seats!


They're Mexican seats. Anyway, the vinyl doesn't stain like the cloth did. The G4500 interior used to look like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/labanex/1030008138/in/[email protected]/.


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## Green Maned Lion

I don't care if it's vinyl from the finest plastics factory in Timbuktu. It's still vinyl rather than a good cloth velour (which can be both stain proof and durable).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Personally, I don't like sitting on cloth velour. Too soft and thick. Same reason why I don't like carpet, and same reason why I hate driving my frigging car.


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## Green Maned Lion

Then buy a car with a different interior.

I personally do not like hard seats, BOEs excepted. And I hate cheap vinyl. The only decent vinyl I've ever seen is MBTEX.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why would I buy another car when I have a useable car for my needs? All my intercity travels are done by Greyhound anyway.


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## rickycourtney

I prefer Greyhound's leather seats over cloth seats. The ones I've seen haven't been stained and had no smells to them. I can't say that for other buses I've travelled on or pictures I've seen of older Greyhound buses. Plus it gives a "premium" feel for passengers. It's the same reason why most airlines have switched to leather, seems like a no brainier to me.

For the record... I think it's leather in some sense of the word. It's not high quality single hide leather... but it's not straight up vinyl either.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I prefer Greyhound's leather seats over cloth seats. The ones I've seen haven't been stained and had no smells to them. I can't say that for other buses I've travelled on or pictures I've seen of older Greyhound buses. Plus it gives a "premium" feel for passengers. It's the same reason why most airlines have switched to leather, seems like a no brainier to me.
> 
> For the record... I think it's leather in some sense of the word. It's not high quality single hide leather... but it's not straight up vinyl either.


Here's a close-up of the seats: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14616932479/in/photostream/.

Let's just forget about seat covers for a second and remember that these seats don't sag, have footrests, and have a lot of legroom and recline. Especially a lot of legroom. And let's also remember that the Blue G does not smell like plastic or burning plastic. Lastly, I would like to say that the passengers on this bus were the among most civilized I have seen on Greyhound.


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## Green Maned Lion

It's vinyl, trust me. Top grain or full grain (which is never used in this kind of application by the by because it is too thick) leather is far too expensive and it does not, generally speaking, tear. It patinas and it cracks which leads to what looks like tears.

Bonded leather, leather scraps bonded to a vinyl backing, is not at all durable. It's use in a vehicle such as an intercity bus would be moronic. It has all of the disadvantages of leather ( heat conduction, scent retention, stainability), all of the disadvantages of vinyl (nonbreathing, heat retention, glue scent), none of leathers advantages (scent, durability, patination, tear strength, abrasion resistance) and none of vinyls advantages (indestructible, flame retardence, non staining, water proof).

Bonded leather is used on garbage products solely to allow that product to advertise itself as leather. Like the stuff you'd find at Sofa King. It's Sofa King bad. It's Sofa King awful. And Sofa King cheap.

Greyhound, who seems to operate on the basis of buying the cheapest, most simplified equipmemt available, and them maintaining it as cheaply as possible, would not buy something that garbage. They'd buy vinyl, which is basically indestructible.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound does not buy the cheapest equipment possible. Van Hools are the cheapest buses on the market, and Greyhound is not buying Van Hools. Also, Mexican-made Amaya Torino Standard seats should be cheaper than the American Seating Premier LS they are buying right now. I think Premier LS costs more like Torino VIP which are very comfortable seats.

I believe Greyhound would buy vinyl for durability just like how they bought the DL3 which is a bulletproof bus.

Edit: Greyhound also wanted the G4500 to be tough so its bottom hatches are made of Kevlar. I can understand why Greyhound would rebuilt a Kevlar bus despite the original design flaws and poor construction.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

What's cheaper? A Ford E250 V8 or a short low Mercedes-Benz Sprinter?

Let's use a 10 year 25,000 mile service life:

Ford: ~ $28000, 5000 mile oil change, 10000 mile tune up, 12 miles per gallon, $3.50/gal, residual value $2000

Mercedes: ~$36000, 12500 oil change, 25000 mile tune up, 22 mpg, $4/gal, residual value $10,000.

Ford: Service costs: $8000, Fuel Cost: $72916, depreciation: $26,000

Mercedes: Service Costs: $7000, Fuel Cost: $41666, depreciation: $26,000

Total life costs:

Ford: $106,916.66

Mercedes: $74,666.66

Which is cheaper?


----------



## rickycourtney

GML... I don't really get how your totally uncited example applies to Greyhound.

Swad is right... Van Hool's are cheaper... and notorious for being shop queens as they get older. So you spend less up front but pay a whole lot more in maintenance over time.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Looks like you left out one thing in your Ford vs. The German King of the Road comparo Lion!

Maintence costs while under Warranty and the hugely expensive Parts and Labor once the Benz is out of Warranty!

I'd also look @ Asian Vehicles, Toyotas and Nissans generally Last forever and cost much less than the European Premium Brands!


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## Green Maned Lion

If you think parts/labor costs over approximately 8.5 years and 218k miles will equal $32,000, Mr. Hudson, then you might have a point. The under warranty maintenance costs were calculated using pricing from a local Ford dealers website, and a call to a friend who works at a Mercedes dealer for the price of a Type A service ($196 rounded to $200), and a type B service ($475 rounded to $500), which are done on an alternating schedule every 12,500 miles (so a A at 12.5, B at 25k, A at 37.5k, B at 50k, etc). While the parts and labor costs are high, you don't have to service it very often- and it comes our to $1000 less over ten years than the ford, as demonstrated.

I do admit that Mercedes repairs are relatively high; I have personal experience in that area, having run 7 Mercedes a total of about 500k miles over the course of my driving life. In that time 13 years, 500k miles) I have spent $16k on repairs, much of which relating to the fact that all but one of the vehicles I have owned were well over 10 years old and most well over 20. Substantial rust repair is probably half of it.

That being said, I admit I failed to calculate the cost of DEF but that shouldn't be substantial.

The point, Ricky, and how it applies to Greyhound, is that the cheapest option does NOT always have the cheapest purchase price.

The Ford costs $10k less to buy, but excluding repair cost differences, will cost you $32k more to own over 10 years and 250k miles. The same can be true of any maintenance intensive piece of equipment.

As for Nissans and suck lasting forever, a car that can only run for 250-300k miles is not one that lasts forever, but that seems to be most Japanese cars limit.


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## Swadian Hardcore

My car runs only 5,000 miles a year.


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## Green Maned Lion

Cool.


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## railiner

Curious what those "tune-ups" entail....Ford at 10,000, MB at 25,000?

I thought that modern auto's go more like 100,000 plus before needing things like spark plugs in the spark-ignition, or whatever is considered part of a "tune-up" these days.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I was looking on Greyhound's website and they are now offering $4 San Francisco-Reno, $9.50 San Francisco-Los Angeles, and $7 Los Angeles-Las Vegas. But if you buy a walk-up at the station, it's $33.50, $56.50, and $57 respectively. Definitely aimed at encouraging better clientele onto the bus while swamping out the suspicious passengers.

Also, Megabus reduced Sparks-San Francisco runs, was 2x daily, now 1x daily, Greyhound, meanwhile, has increased Reno-San Francisco, from 5x daily to 6x daily.

Edit: minor error.


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## railiner

Just for nostalgia, I looked at at an August, 1971 Official Bus Guide....

Greyhound ran 10 daily trips between San Francisco and Reno, with five of those continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond. Plus a couple more weekend only trips...

In addition, they ran four more trips via US 50 and South Lake Tahoe.

And, one more via the Feather River Canyon.

And some of the more popular trips ran in multiple sections, as needed.

And then there was also Continental Trailways....

They ran nine daily trips between San Francisco and Sparks, with two of them continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Just for nostalgia, I looked at at an August, 1971 Official Bus Guide....
> 
> Greyhound ran 10 daily trips between San Francisco and Reno, with five of those continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond. Plus a couple more weekend only trips...
> 
> In addition, they ran four more trips via US 50 and South Lake Tahoe.
> 
> And, one more via the Feather River Canyon.
> 
> And some of the more popular trips ran in multiple sections, as needed.
> 
> And then there was also Continental Trailways....
> 
> They ran nine daily trips between San Francisco and Sparks, with two of them continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond....


Do you still have the times? Could you please scan it? It would be very interesting as I ride that route very frequently.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

railiner said:


> Curious what those "tune-ups" entail....Ford at 10,000, MB at 25,000?
> 
> I thought that modern auto's go more like 100,000 plus before needing things like spark plugs in the spark-ignition, or whatever is considered part of a "tune-up" these days.


Diesel vehicles aren't known for needing spark plugs.

I honestly don't know what it entails on a Ford- when I had one it was a rusty old beater that I gave oil changes every 5000 miles or so and otherwise ignored. Serves me right, I suppose, the tranny went and the engine seized.

On the Mercedes the basic service entails an oil change/filter change, basic inspection, fluid top off, and to my surprise DEF replenishment.

The "tune up" (they call it a service B) includes the basic service, cabin air filter, fuel filter, several fluid changes, wiper blade replacement, tire rotation, and a comprehensive inspection.

I've never really paid much attention to it. I drive in, they give me keys to a loaner, I drive out. They call me, I hand them the keys to the loaner, they hand me the keys to my car (my credit card is on file) and I drive off. I vaguely remembered pricing being about what I mentioned.

What can I say? Quality costs.


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## railiner

I did say "spark plugs in the spark ignition"....(understanding they're not found in a compression ignition engine)....

To me, being an 'old-timer', a "tune-up" usually meant new spark plugs, breaker points, condenser; sometimes new spark plug wires, and a distributor cap.

In addition, the timing was adjusted, as was the carburetor(s). This was needed as often as every 10,000 miles in some cars....

The other items you mentioned were done every 3,000 miles in a "lube job".

In those simpler times, many "shade-tree mechanics" would service their own cars. Nowadays, you need to be a technician with high-tech equipment to properly service the modern car.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just for nostalgia, I looked at at an August, 1971 Official Bus Guide....
> 
> Greyhound ran 10 daily trips between San Francisco and Reno, with five of those continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond. Plus a couple more weekend only trips...
> 
> In addition, they ran four more trips via US 50 and South Lake Tahoe.
> 
> And, one more via the Feather River Canyon.
> 
> And some of the more popular trips ran in multiple sections, as needed.
> 
> And then there was also Continental Trailways....
> 
> They ran nine daily trips between San Francisco and Sparks, with two of them continuing to Salt Lake City and beyond....
> 
> 
> 
> Do you still have the times? Could you please scan it? It would be very interesting as I ride that route very frequently.
Click to expand...

I'd be glad to, if I knew how to do that..... :blush:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Go to the public library with a Removable Disk and just ask someone. They'll teach you and it'll be done in minutes.

Regarding the Reno terminal, there is new Greyhound Security there, three security guards to suppress vandalism. They now require a pat-down, ticket check, and open-bag check to go in. But they don't actually do it.


----------



## Eric S

So there is signage outside the Reno Greyhound station saying anyone entering is subject to a pat-down and ticket check?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> So there is signage outside the Reno Greyhound station saying anyone entering is subject to a pat-down and ticket check?


No, not outside, right when you enter. There's a long table for luggage check and metal detectors. Stations with security always ask you for tickets when you enter.

These security guys aren't bad, the ones in Sacramento are much worse.

Anyway, tons of vandals around here. My car got vandalized, my home got vandalized, Greyhound Terminal got vandalized, Amtrak has homeless out front digging for food in the trash cans, just all kinds of weird things going on in Reno.


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## Eric S

Wow. My Greyhound (and intercity bus) experience is very limited and I have never encountered anything like that.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> Wow. My Greyhound (and intercity bus) experience is very limited and I have never encountered anything like that.


I would take a photo if I could, but photography is not allowed inside the Reno Terminal anymore. Same thing with Sacramento, Oakland, and San Francisco Terminals. I can ask a driver for permission and they always let you. But of course you can take all the photos you want from the street.

Anyways, the Security is actually nice and sociable, they just enforce the No Photography policy within station grounds, probably to stop people making fun of Greyhound.

I'm afraid I can't do this anymore: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11793048463/in/photolist-iY7srM-ncSj8b-ncSgyT.

But I can still do this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14603667207/in/photolist-.

Edit: Actually I can still do the shots from inside the station, I'll just have to ask the driver for permission. I asked a driver once and he found it ridiculous that security stopped photography of buses. Of course he let me take many photos. When riding Greyhound, the drivers are always the nice guys, the other employees are always worse, except for a ticket agent in the Denver Terminal (who was a friend with the aforementioned driver) and the cooks at the Sacramento Food Court.


----------



## railiner

I really don't understand the "no photography" policy....just what are they afraid of? Embarrassment of what ensue's within? Fear of some sort of litigation? Or just "security theater" to make passenger's think they are 'protected" from terrorism, like air traveler's are at airports?

And how are they going to realistically prevent photography, with almost everyone toting smartphones around, that can easily take 'clandestine' photo's?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, it is a stupid policy, and I asked the aforementioned driver why they have it. He says he doesn't know either, he agrees that it is ridiculous, and allowed me to take any photos I wanted. His exact words were, "I don't know why they do that. It's just a bus."

That's what I'm talking about, you see buses on the street all the time, what is Greyhound trying to achieve with this stupid policy? This is probably my biggest complaint about Greyhound.

I do have to say, this driver was very calm with everything. When the only troublesome passenger on my six Greyhound rides last week called me a "lowlife" and refused to let me sit by him, the driver walked up, pulled out his cell phone, and said, "He only paid for one seat. (turning to him) You let him sit, or I call the police."

I was thinking he should just call the police! I sat for a few moments but then I found another seat and switched to sit elsewhere. Actually I switched twice because at a rest stop another guy requested a switch with me and I ended up finishing the trip with a furniture-maker from the Bronx named Chris. Could not have been a better turnaround.

That was the Glenwood-Denver ride, Sked 1312 Las Vegas-Denver.


----------



## rickycourtney

Except that they still let you take photos at the airport.

Personally I think that Greyhound uses the guise of "security" as a way to avoid any potential embarrassment. It's really easy to whip out a camera and record and employee or a passenger doing something embarrassing and post it to the internet.

But I think it's a shortsided rule. You alienate passengers who take photos for legitimate reasons... and it's still very easy for people to take clandestine photos and video with a smartphone.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean! It's ridiculous! My bus photos on the Internet with detailed descriptions and links to interior shots probably do more to help Greyhound then to hurt Greyhound. Yet I still managed to take multiple photos of burned-out #86379 at Denver Garage.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what I mean! It's ridiculous! My bus photos on the Internet with detailed descriptions and links to interior shots probably do more to help Greyhound then to hurt Greyhound. Yet I still managed to take multiple photos of burned-out #86379 at Denver Garage.


That's a change from years past.....when they had something ugly like a wrecked bus towed into the yard, they either brought it inside, or completely covered it from recognition wih tarps. Even when being towed they tried to cover as much as possible from public view....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's exactly what I mean! It's ridiculous! My bus photos on the Internet with detailed descriptions and links to interior shots probably do more to help Greyhound then to hurt Greyhound. Yet I still managed to take multiple photos of burned-out #86379 at Denver Garage.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a change from years past.....when they had something ugly like a wrecked bus towed into the yard, they either brought it inside, or completely covered it from recognition wih tarps. Even when being towed they tried to cover as much as possible from public view....
Click to expand...

Which year was that? I heard back when the G's first started burning they covered everything. Lentzsch?


----------



## rickycourtney

I honestly think it has less to do with the embarrassment from things like a burned out coach (the news media will be able to get pictures like that no matter what) and more about preventing people from getting videos or pictures of employees or passengers doing something embarrassing.

I've read a few stories online of passengers getting kicked off by a driver after a disagreement.

I remember a recent case involving group of "occupy" protesters who the bus driver didn't agree with (they claim due to differing opinions on politics). The driver pulled over and told the passengers to get off, the passengers demanded an explanation of why they were being kicked off, the driver refused and called the cops, the cops agreed with the passengers, but asked them to disembark and the cops arranged to get them to a safe place.

Poor customer service, rude employees and unruly passengers are the kind of thing that got Greyhound the bad name they're still trying to run from. I think that's what they want to avoid... people capturing that stuff on video. It just takes one egregious incident to wipe out all of this positive press they have received.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.

Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.

And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.

If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.


Swadian, I am not disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. But read the way you said it. You sound ridiculous, like an evangelical preacher talking to his choir about god.

I am offering you this as friendly advice. When I talk about Mercedes, you probably think I sound like a biased idiot- which is fine, since I am biased and irrationally brand loyal. But, while I think it would be cool if you were to buy a Benz, since we'd have something in common to talk about and stuff, I really don't care what brand of car you drive. I'm not trying to convert you to the Church of Karl and Gottlieb. So I can come across like a jerk because it doesn't really hurt my cause any.

But you? You seem to really want people to get over a (honestly) irrational hatred of busses in general and Greyhound in particular. I understand, and don't disagree with the goal. I tend to be viewed as a pro-bus guy in the local movement because I'm mostly interested in mobility, and busses play an important role.

If you want to actually accomplish getting people to give the dog a try, you have to play to the audience you are working. So tone it down a bit.


----------



## Misty.

Swadian Hardcore said:


> In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.
> 
> Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.
> 
> And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.
> 
> If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.


And sadly, those are good examples of why I try not to show any opinion of anything anywhere, unless I'm specifically saying something like "Look for this (item), I want to meet up with you" to someone at an event we're both at - I was bullied for the majority of the time I was drifting through the public school system, I don't want to be harassed for my interests now that I'm 30.

Hmm, while I'm here, might as well distract you all with another STL Greyhound picture... Though for those that don't already know the address, I also have a few pictures of Connect Transit buses (service area, Bloomington-Normal, IL) and a few wrapped STL Metro buses (including one of the new to us articulated busses), in https://www.flickr.com/photos/mistyolr/sets/72157646096987591/ (link is directly to the set they're in).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

No offense, Misty. We all adapt to our demons in our own way, and you sorta win if you simply survive it.

But that being said, I got bullied for my opinions and still do. And I hold them proud, for if I stopped, they'd win.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.
> 
> Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.
> 
> And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.
> 
> If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.


Looks like a bunch of lost souls that were born much too late.....I went thru the worst of the radical's in the 1968 era, so the 'occupy movement' is very lame in comparison, and I just kind of smile when I see them 'acting out'...anyway, they seem to have fizzled away for the most part.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

(gasp) Misty, that is a WHITE G4500! Disgusting but it probably isn't that bad because the worse ones have been sent for the first rebuilds. I know #7104 was horrible (rough-riding and smelled like burning plastic), but now it has been rebuilt and should be awesome because the rebuilt G I rode recently, #7029, was very clean and comfortable, had as much legroom as I could need to stretch out fully.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I'm talking about. Everyone makes fun of Greyhound, Greyhound doesn't make fun of anyone. Mouth Greyhound support on any non-Greyhound forum and you have hate coming your way. Mouth the opposite on GTE and we still remain civil. Everyone claims to be better than Greyhound even though Greyhound is humble while others are arrogant. Greyhound has just been bullied too much and now they're even afraid of bus fans taking photos of their buses.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian, I am not disagreeing with the premise of what you are saying. But read the way you said it. You sound ridiculous, like an evangelical preacher talking to his choir about god.
> 
> I am offering you this as friendly advice. When I talk about Mercedes, you probably think I sound like a biased idiot- which is fine, since I am biased and irrationally brand loyal. But, while I think it would be cool if you were to buy a Benz, since we'd have something in common to talk about and stuff, I really don't care what brand of car you drive. I'm not trying to convert you to the Church of Karl and Gottlieb. So I can come across like a jerk because it doesn't really hurt my cause any.
> 
> But you? You seem to really want people to get over a (honestly) irrational hatred of busses in general and Greyhound in particular. I understand, and don't disagree with the goal. I tend to be viewed as a pro-bus guy in the local movement because I'm mostly interested in mobility, and busses play an important role.
> 
> If you want to actually accomplish getting people to give the dog a try, you have to play to the audience you are working. So tone it down a bit.
Click to expand...

I do agree. When I was a kid in West Philadelphia, I was bullied too. People made fun of me around the clock and I had no friends whatsoever in those days. The people in authority simply tolerated the physical attacks. I'm not a big guy, as I've said before. I'm in a much better position now, but looking at Greyhound, I feel like they are being Little Swadian standing against the brick wall over recess because everyone ostracizes him, and he doesn't want to be pushed or punched from behind, so he puts the wall behind him.

I would like to say one thing: richer people are not always better people. Amtrak passengers, well they're richer than us Hounders, but that doesn't always make them better. The Belfield incident on a train was that these affluent middle-aged couples were discussing travel, and one man mentioned "We passed through Belfield after entering South Dakota". I excused myself and said that Belfield was in North Dakota. But then he insisted it was in South Dakota and everyone else ganged up on me, the Greyhound fan stickers on my shirt did not help, and the rest is self-explanatory. This was recently, but something similar happened two years ago on my last Amtrak LD trip, except it was about Ely and Des Moines, not Belfield. Nothing physical, but still, being arrogant and not being arrogant is a Choice that everyone can make.

Please remember that I had not just cut in to a conversation. I had previously joined in when they were discussing Hotwire hotel deals.

Also, the HVAC on Amtrak sounds just like my workplace. So that gives me added stress because I'm trying to forget about work for a while but the HVAC sound is a constant reminder.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of Donald Ainsworth kicking the Occupiers off his DL3 in Amarillo, let us not forget that the Freedom Riders were bombed in Anniston. Greyhound is fearful of any political activism on their buses. Remember, Donald Ainsworth never said he hated Occupiers, but the Occupiers were a large, enthusiastic group of political activists. Politics on Greyhound buses = trouble on Greyhound buses.
> 
> Edit: Imagine you were a Greyhound driver, and you saw this on your bus: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6764516165_c9cc1da157_z.jpg.
> 
> And this in the station: http://obrag.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Occupy-SD-bus-Day2.jpg.
> 
> If I were a Greyhound driver, I wouldn't care what their cause was, I would take extreme caution.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a bunch of lost souls that were born much too late.....I went thru the worst of the radical's in the 1968 era, so the 'occupy movement' is very lame in comparison, and I just kind of smile when I see them 'acting out'...anyway, they seem to have fizzled away for the most part.....
Click to expand...

I'm interested, what was it really like in the Summer of Love? What was it like for the bus and transport industry in general?

Edit: minor errors


----------



## railiner

That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......

The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Summer ofLove has to be better than it is now. All pussyfoots. No radicals willing to speak up for what's right.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......
> 
> The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....


What was the main operator of the PD-4903? Greyhound never operated them. Would you have preferred a GMC Buffalo or MCI MC-7/MC-8? I think the MCI's look better than the Buffalo, at least.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So, I visited Denver Garage, and here's a shot of the Greyhounds lined up with an Americanos too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14791809656/sizes/l.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.


Dina owned MCI, not the other way around. Most of the G4500's were built at this plant: http://www.elindependientedehidalgo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/07-pag19-n1.jpg. Does that plant say "MCI"?

Edit: The workers at Sahagun built the buses while wearing Dina uniforms. Moreover, the G4500 has major deign elements from the Dina Viaggio.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Swad, why do you always call the G4500 the "MCI-Dina" G4500? The bus was built by MCI employees, at a MCI owned facility.
> 
> 
> 
> Dina owned MCI, not the other way around. Most of the G4500's were built at this plant: http://www.elindependientedehidalgo.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/07-pag19-n1.jpg. Does that plant say "MCI"?
> Edit: The workers at Sahagun built the buses while wearing Dina uniforms. Moreover, the G4500 has major deign elements from the Dina Viaggio.
Click to expand...

Okay touché. I looked it up and you're right... Dina bought MCI in 1994. But that would mean that the 102DL3 was built by Dina employees at a Dina owned facility.

But here's a quote from the National Bus Trader article on the G4500:

"It incorporates Greyhound specifications, MCI engineering, and production at MCI’s facility in Mexico."

Here's my point. It was built and sold as an MCI bus so it doesn't make since to call the G4500 a "MCI-Dina G4500" anymore than it makes since to call the 102DL3 a "MCI-Dina 102DL3."

As an aside my Toyota Tacoma was built at the now defunct NUMMI factory by workers who also built GM cars... but I don't call it a "Toyota-GM Tacoma".


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

No, the 102DL3 was built at a plant at says "MCI" and the employees wore MCI uniforms. The G4500 was built at a plant that said "Dina" and the employees wore Dina uniforms. And the G4500 is half-Viaggio by mechanic accounts, even though NBT doesn't say that.


----------



## railiner

I would have to agree with Swadian on this.....the 'G's seemed a lot more like those Dina "Marcopolo-Viaggio"'s than an MCI....and they were built at the Dina plant in Mexico, while the 'D's were built at the MCI plants at Winnipeg and Pembina. No matter that Dina owned MCI during that period.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> That era is very well documented. The public transportation did very well then, with the Vietnam War raging, a lot of military transport. There were many civil rights activities..."Resurrection City" or March on Washington and other places. There were hippies heading to San Francisco, with "flower's in their hair"......
> 
> The Interstate Highway system was pretty well on its way to completion, speeding up intercity travel. New 40 foot intercity buses (GMC PD-4903 and MCI MC-7) were going into high production to supplement the earlier Scenicruiser and Eagle coaches. Penn Central was developing the new Metroliner's, and Boeing was shortly going to introduce the Jumbo Jet B-747....
> 
> 
> 
> What was the main operator of the PD-4903? Greyhound never operated them. Would you have preferred a GMC Buffalo or MCI MC-7/MC-8? I think the MCI's look better than the Buffalo, at least.
Click to expand...

Greyhound only operated the 35 foot, PD-4107 "buffalo".

Since Continental Trailways had a lock on most of the Eagle production, and Greyhound on the MC-7 production, the PD-4903 sold to mainly independent carrier's, that did not have previous access to a 40 foot coach. Also, some of the independent members of the National Trailways Bus System stayed loyal to GMC, and did not acquire Eagle's.

I have always favored General Motor's coaches. Their driver's compartment was ergonomically speaking, far superior to the other's.

And to my eye, their styling was aesthetically speaking far superior to the other's..... They had a very cohesive styling with lines that just looked right. Some of their design elements evolved from some earlier coaches syled by famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy.

The early Eagle's reflected some of their Euro heritage, while the MCI's seemed to have an 'industrial look' with awkward lines, especially around the 'greenhouse' area...the MC-8 was much improved over the MC-7, but still did not have the sleekness of the 'buffalo'......


----------



## rickycourtney

My point is, it's got an MCI badge... so it's an MCI... not a Dina.

Yes, it was Dina's fault for cutting corners on this bus and tarnishing the MCI name, but the truth is that this bus is important in MCI's history as a flawed product, but one that has been very influential when it comes to design of line-haul buses (the newer D4505 still uses the same headlights and switched to the frameless windows).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, the G4500 headlights were simply much-enlarged E4500 headlights. And I never said it was not a MCI, I said it was a MCI-Dina, meaning both MCI and Dina pitched half-and-half into the bus. Also, I believe the G4500 has a Dina engine compartment like this Viaggio: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/100-1997DinaViaggio/100-1997DinaViaggio-1.jpg. You can see the fan on the left side of the engine, a Dina design feature and similar to Van Hool.

Railiner, so how did MCI beat GMC and Eagle? I myself like the industrial look of the MC-8 similar to a F40PH.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

A GMC W4500 is what? With the gas engine we can have a discussion. With the diesel it's an Isuzu. Isuzu engine, transmission, chassis, body, GMC badge.

There is nothing wrong with Swadian calling it a potentially applicable name.

An Arnage Green Label is a BMW-Bentley for that nasty twin turbo BMW V8 that sits under its hood. The Red Label is a Bentley pure and simple. A Bentley Continental is a VW-Bentley because of its VW W12 engine, it's Phaeton derived platform, and the fact that quite a few were built in the Phaeton glass factory in Dresden, Germany.

For simplicity we don't mention the details of its parentage. But it's muddled heritage remains. Besides, the last REAL Bentley left Derby in the 50s.


----------



## railiner

Wouldn't the last REAL Bentley have been prior to the 1931 Rolls takeover of Bentley?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Railiner, so how did MCI beat GMC and Eagle? I myself like the industrial look of the MC-8 similar to a F40PH.


That was mainly a result of the long-running US Government battle against GM's near monopoly of the bus manufacturing industry. GM and Greyhound had a cozy long relationship as well, with Greyhound getting preferential treatment of GM's newest model production. And its exclusive Scenicruiser, although Greyhound had commissioned that design with its own engineering input.

The result, in a nutshell, was that GM had to release some of its patents and design's, like the "Angle Drive" to other bus manufacturer's, such as Flxible, and offer all of their model's to all who desired to purchase them. In addition, Greyhound was ordered to purchase some of its fleet from other sources.

Since Greyhound owned the design of the Scenicruiser, and having a thousand of them in their fleet; rather than letting anyone else get one, they decided to end its production run, having enough (about one sixth) in their fleet to cover most of the important 'prestige' main routes as a 'halo' vehicle...

Greyhound already owned MCI in Winnipeg, which built a relative handful of buses for GLC. Greyhound had a modified model built for testing, and decided to ramp up production, build a new assembly plant in Pembina, and get all of their new buses from MCI in the future. When MCI had matured to the point where they could supply all of Greyhound's needs, and still have surplus capacity, they started selling to other carrier's. Many other carrier's believed that whatever Greyhound bought, had to be good, so they ran to MCI. The MCI coaches were more like the GM's than the Eagle's were, so Eagle did not do as well with independent carrier's. And GM, which had the "power, plant, and personality" to fight back, and produce a product that could bury MCI, if they wanted to, chose to just quietly exit the coach business, which they did in 1980, rather than fight the government any further....

Edit: A few years later, GM sold off their transit bus business (the RTS design and the 'Classic' variation of the older 'New Look' design), as well.

Ironically the buyer was MCI, who started producing the RTS in their TMC plant in Roswell, NM, and the 'Classic' in the former GM Canadian plant until they turned and sold it to Nova...


----------



## railiner

The F40PH was also styled by General Motor's stylists, right? 

GM monopolized so many of the businesses it competed in, when they "ruled the world" (roll Cold Play song  )....

Look at what happenned since....they divested EMD, Detroit Diesel, Frigidaire, and how many other's?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So why did Greyhound choose to get all their buses from MCI in the future if GMC's were better, by your account, and they already had GMC's in their fleet? I thought Greyhound would have played the game of order-switching to confuse suppliers and keep them guessing and trying to satisfy Greyhound. Like what they are doing with MCI and Prevost. Besides, with so many garages, standardization wouldn't have been the best idea.

But what about the Flxible Vistaliner? How was that old bus? Never heard much about Flxible OTRB's.


----------



## railiner

Since they already owned MCi, and could have total control of the design, they improved MCI to be better than the contemporary GM products, and kept all of the profits within the corporation. And as I mentioned, GM was leary of fighting the government further, so they decided to not fight back, and just quietly drop out of the market.

The Flxible Vistaliner, as well as the later HiLevel, and final Flxiliner, were nice buses, that offered the smooth Torsilastic suspended ride, but were not really competitive with the contemporary GMC PD-4104, '06, and '07 models.....exactly why, I can't answer, but not many companies bought them...

Continental Trailways perhaps bought the most, but as soon as they developed their own Eagle's, they stopped buying the Flxible's....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Fascinating. So early Eagles were built in Belgium with Rolls-Royce engines? Wonder why they switched to inferior engines...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Aha! So they _improved_ MCI to be better than GMC's later products! So, a MC-8 would be better than a PD-4905, I'm thinking.....

So how do you pronounce "Flxible"? Is it pronounced "felxible", "folxible", or "flexible"?

With Torsilastic, would a Flxible beat GMC, MCI, or Eagle in those days? I heard the early Eagles were crap compared to the later ones. Like Eagle 01 vs Eagle 10.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

From what I heard about it you pronounced it [un]fixible.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Here's one for you, Railiner: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crazy4buses/420500719/sizes/o/.

And another: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14269248520/sizes/c/.

You know what that is, right?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Green Maned Lion said:


> From what I heard about it you pronounced it [un]fixible.


Torsilastic? They still got Flxibles in Portland, TriMet still has some of their Metros.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here's one for you, Railiner: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crazy4buses/420500719/sizes/o/.
> 
> And another: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14269248520/sizes/c/.
> 
> You know what that is, right?


    !

You know I do.........


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Several people have told me Flixible busses were garbage. I know nothing more on the subject.


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Fascinating. So early Eagles were built in Belgium with Rolls-Royce engines? Wonder why they switched to inferior engines...


The earliest (from the 1956 pilot model, up until 1961) were built in Germany by Kassbohrer-Setra. Most came with MAN diesel's but the four Super Golden Eagle's (60 foot articulated) came with the Rolls-Royce power. From 1961 until 1974, the Eagles were built by Bus and Car (a Continental Trailway's subsidiary) in Belgium. At first they had Cummins diesel's, until GM released the Detroit Diesel 8v-71 to other manufacturer's. In 1974, Eagle opened up a plant in Brownsville, Tx.

Say what you will, but the 8v-71 was IMHO, the best bus engine ever produced, until its poor air pollution problem, inherent in two-stroke engines, sealed its demise...


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Aha! So they _improved_ MCI to be better than GMC's later products! So, a MC-8 would be better than a PD-4905, I'm thinking.....
> 
> So how do you pronounce "Flxible"? Is it pronounced "felxible", "folxible", or "flexible"?
> 
> With Torsilastic, would a Flxible beat GMC, MCI, or Eagle in those days? I heard the early Eagles were crap compared to the later ones. Like Eagle 01 vs Eagle 10.


Yes....the MC-8 was superior to the PD-4905, and the MC-9 was better than the H8H649 (the very last 'buffalo' made in 1980).

It is pronounced "flexible"

The Flxible had a better ride than the "air-ride's", but the Eagle also had the Torsilastic, and the Eagle was bigger, heavier, and had an extra axle. I believe the Eagle also had more 'travel' in their suspension than the Flxible, so it really absorbed rough roads, like nothing else on earth....

The early Eagles's did have some teething problem's, but each year they improved. The biggest improvement from the "01" to the "05", was the swapping of the drive and tag axle locations, opening up a lot more underfloor cargo space (the fuel tank was moved to in-between the tag wheels). However, the 05 did not ride any better than the 01......


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Several people have told me Flixible busses were garbage. I know nothing more on the subject.


Flxilble's transit bus reputation was badly tarnished after they were taken over by Grumman....the Advanced Design 'Grumman 870' had serious design flaws, and the cracked frames, caused a big scandal.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I just found misinformation about Greyhound: http://www.saukvalley.com/2014/08/04/greyhound-working-to-bring-service-back-to-dixon/a1o0nqk/.

I'll reply to the other posts later.

Edit: So, Greyhound does not serve any of those places listed as "stops" on that article. Don't know what's going on.


----------



## railiner

Yes.....you're right....GL hasn't run those routes in a long time. At one time, they were local stops on Greyhound's main routes to the West.....now they don't even serve Iowa or Nebraska....

Dixon's claim to fame is being the birthplace of President Ronald Reagan......


----------



## jebr

Probably just thinking of Burlington Trailways instead of Greyhound. All of those cities have service from BTW when searching from each city to Chicago on Greyhound's website (and all except Moline on Burlington Trailway's website.)


----------



## railiner

Perhaps it's Burlington Trailways that is going to enhance service to Dixon......some people don't know (or care) about the difference...to some old-timer's, "Greyhound" is generic for intercity bus.....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

railiner said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating. So early Eagles were built in Belgium with Rolls-Royce engines? Wonder why they switched to inferior engines...
> 
> 
> 
> The earliest (from the 1956 pilot model, up until 1961) were built in Germany by Kassbohrer-Setra. Most came with MAN diesel's but the four Super Golden Eagle's (60 foot articulated) came with the Rolls-Royce power. From 1961 until 1974, the Eagles were built by Bus and Car (a Continental Trailway's subsidiary) in Belgium. At first they had Cummins diesel's, until GM released the Detroit Diesel 8v-71 to other manufacturer's. In 1974, Eagle opened up a plant in Brownsville, Tx.Say what you will, but the 8v-71 was IMHO, the best bus engine ever produced, until its poor air pollution problem, inherent in two-stroke engines, sealed its demise...
Click to expand...

Good they may have been... But if Rolls-Royce power can make a BMC Farina a good car, it can make a decent product amazing.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Yes.....you're right....GL hasn't run those routes in a long time. At one time, they were local stops on Greyhound's main routes to the West.....now they don't even serve Iowa or Nebraska....
> 
> Dixon's claim to fame is being the birthplace of President Ronald Reagan......


 They do serve Ottumwa, Iowa, with Greyhound Connect from Springfield, Missouri. But that's it.



jebr said:


> Probably just thinking of Burlington Trailways instead of Greyhound. All of those cities have service from BTW when searching from each city to Chicago on Greyhound's website (and all except Moline on Burlington Trailway's website.)


That's what I'm thinking, but still, misinformation is misinformation.



railiner said:


> Perhaps it's Burlington Trailways that is going to enhance service to Dixon......some people don't know (or care) about the difference...to some old-timer's, "Greyhound" is generic for intercity bus.....


But Trailways is an old brand, and people would recognize that too.

On the topic of Burlington Trailways, at Denver Greyhound I repeatedly saw their run to Indianapolis, they were plain white Restyled J4500's, never seen them like that before. It used to be always D4505's, in the Trailways Big Red livery.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating. So early Eagles were built in Belgium with Rolls-Royce engines? Wonder why they switched to inferior engines...
> 
> 
> 
> The earliest (from the 1956 pilot model, up until 1961) were built in Germany by Kassbohrer-Setra. Most came with MAN diesel's but the four Super Golden Eagle's (60 foot articulated) came with the Rolls-Royce power. From 1961 until 1974, the Eagles were built by Bus and Car (a Continental Trailway's subsidiary) in Belgium. At first they had Cummins diesel's, until GM released the Detroit Diesel 8v-71 to other manufacturer's. In 1974, Eagle opened up a plant in Brownsville, Tx.Say what you will, but the 8v-71 was IMHO, the best bus engine ever produced, until its poor air pollution problem, inherent in two-stroke engines, sealed its demise...
Click to expand...

What about the 8V-92TA or 60-R? The 60-R has a lot les pollution and is still reliable.



railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aha! So they _improved_ MCI to be better than GMC's later products! So, a MC-8 would be better than a PD-4905, I'm thinking.....
> 
> So how do you pronounce "Flxible"? Is it pronounced "felxible", "folxible", or "flexible"?
> 
> With Torsilastic, would a Flxible beat GMC, MCI, or Eagle in those days? I heard the early Eagles were crap compared to the later ones. Like Eagle 01 vs Eagle 10.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....the MC-8 was superior to the PD-4905, and the MC-9 was better than the H8H649 (the very last 'buffalo' made in 1980).
> It is pronounced "flexible"
> 
> The Flxible had a better ride than the "air-ride's", but the Eagle also had the Torsilastic, and the Eagle was bigger, heavier, and had an extra axle. I believe the Eagle also had more 'travel' in their suspension than the Flxible, so it really absorbed rough roads, like nothing else on earth....
> 
> The early Eagles's did have some teething problem's, but each year they improved. The biggest improvement from the "01" to the "05", was the swapping of the drive and tag axle locations, opening up a lot more underfloor cargo space (the fuel tank was moved to in-between the tag wheels). However, the 05 did not ride any better than the 01......
Click to expand...

I had always heard about the tag and drive axle positions on the Eagles. So the Eagle 5 had tag-drive instead of drive-tag like all the MCI's?

Do they measure wheelbase to the last axle, or the drive axle?


----------



## rickycourtney

On a whim I filled out the Greyhound survey (there was a link on my reservation) and I told them pretty much what I said here… the good and the bad parts of my trip (mostly that the seats are horrible).

To my surprise within minutes the "city manager" for Seattle sent me a nice email asking for more information, which I provided. He said he would pass my thoughts "up the chain of command."

No clue if anything will come of it but it least I feel "listened to." It's a sharp contrast from the discussion on the Amtrak Forum right now where someone is going on weeks for a response to their comment.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Really? I submitted multiple surveys to Greyhound complaining about the sagging seats but received no response. On the topic of bags blocking the aisle, Kit repeatedly said that was not allowed, and that all carry-on bags must go on the parcel racks or underneath the seats.

I should fill out more surveys and see what happens. I really hope they will order some other kind of seats, seats that don't sag.

On the topic of seats, I find the wide headrests very important when trying to sleep, so I do not think Greyhound should order any seats with small, narrow headrests. So I think Greyhound should order one of the following:

http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_g_plus/

http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_vip/

If you could choose between those two, would you choose the G Plus or VIP? Both are available with different seat covers, patterns, etc.


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## rickycourtney

Between those two the Torino VIP would be my choice.

I wouldn't make it a requirement to have a flat headrest. I've never had a problem falling asleep in seats with them. I feel like they support your head better, although my only experience with a flat headrest are the awful Premier and Premier LS seats.

I have sat in the A2-TEN several times and I found them to be more comfortable than the Torino Standard.


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## railiner

American Seating used to make very comfortable seats, I like the ones with the winged headrests that kept your sleeping head from sliding off the headrests....

Yes, the model '05', and all subsequent Eagle's have the drive axle in the rear....the GMC 'buffaloes' also had their drive axle in the rear. In the case of the 'buffaloes', the tag axle was actually optional...you could order a 40 foot, two axle coach. .I do believe wheelbase is generally considered the distance between the front and rear wheel's, not between the drive and steering axle, as some might assume, since that more influences a vehicle's turning radius....

Yes, good catch, Swadian...I had forgotten about that token GL presence in Iowa, at Ottumwa, if it is actually GL and not a contract carrier...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, the token presence in Ottumwa is actually GLI, on GTE, Richard has posted photos of Greyhound Connect cutaways made by GCA running the Spring-Ottumwa rural route, with a "MO" prefix. Not a "real" Greyhound bus per se, as it is not an OTRB, but still, Greyhound it is.

Regarding the Torino VIP, I really like how it comes default with "combo" seat covers, vinyl on the sides, and cloth velour in the center. The vinyl on the sides takes the damage and stains while the person actually sitting will feel the extra-soft comfort of cloth velour center.

OK now, what about this: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_vip/.

Versus this: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/a-2ten/.

Seat covers notwithstanding again, but do remember the former has hybrid covers that combine the "best of both". Others' opinions?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, so I found this Las Vegas Bus Sales vid of a 1995 MC-12 for sale, with NO rest in the engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaU8zuL8gSc. And only 80,000 miles? I'm thinking it's either a scam or it's not an ex-Greyhound MC-12, but very few MC-12's very built for other operators.

Also, I found that old restored MC-7 Richfield has: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboys/6154820020/in/[email protected]/.

It has this interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboys/4204420443/in/[email protected]/.

Looks nice and cozy to me, more comfortable-looking than a new Greyhound with the sagging seats. And this is the only time I've seen nice curtains on a bus, all the other ones I've seen have been intrusive and dirty, more problems than rewards. Did all the old MC-7's have that interior?

Also, regarding TV's on Greyhound buses, I think they made the right choice not having them, sleeping is quite easy right now with no running lights at all inside, complete natural lighting at night. Flashing TV's would be a major annoyance, sound or not. Even a GPS map would be annoying. It would only be useful in the daytime. It would be useful to play announcements and safety procedures. But completely pointless and annoying when the bus is already cruising down the highway. So Greyhound might as well save the money like they are right now, and not add them to buses.


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## rickycourtney

Don't get me wrong... I think that the Torino VIP is an excellent seat. The big winged headrest and the "combo" seat covers are both really nice. But there's a reason why it's called the "VIP", the price is higher than the Torino Standard. I just don't see Greyhound spending the extra money for a little extra comfort.

Also, I'm not sure if you noticed but you can also order the A-2TEN with a winged headrest (go to the second page) but it's not as nice as the winged headrest on the Torino VIP. That being said... I think the standard (semi-winged) headrest on the A-2TEN is extremely soft and comfortable and much better than the headrest on the Premier and Premier LS.


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## Swadian Hardcore

But Greyhound will never order the Torino Standard, because it has a terrible narrow headrest: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_standard/.

I was talking about the Torino G Plus with also comes with a new seat belt system: http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/EN/products/coach_seats/torino_g_plus/.

But I think Greyhound would order the Torino VIP because Greyhound Canada ordered that seat for years and the Premier LS must be just as or more expensive because US labor coats are higher than in Mexico. If only they would stop their obsession with the sagging Premier LS. Seats must cost much less than that $500,000 bus and if you are going to buy a new bus you might as well fit better seats at the same cost as the current ones Greyhound is ordering, or a little more than the Torino Standard.

More comfort in the same space for the same weight = more profits in the long run.

Edit: Torino G Plus does have more recline than the VIP, Standard, or A2-TEN. So that might actually be very comfortable, especially with the new seat belt system.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound has been ordering the terrible Premier & Premier LS for years now... so never say never when it comes to buying a bad product.

That being said I've also sat in the Torino Standard... and I thought it was a very comfortable seat. Those pictures don't really do the headrest justice... they're about the same size as the headrest on the Patriot with the adjustable headrest.

Also the Torino G Plus looks like a good seat too (especially the version in leather) but I'm not a fan of those adjustable seatbelts... they look like they would be uncomfortable.

Really anything is better than those horrible Premier & Premier LS seats.


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## rickycourtney

One of my biggest complaints about intercity bus travel is that almost all the companies do something I despise... charge stupid fees for booking a trip.

BoltBus charges a $1.50 "transaction fee" for booking a reservation and there is an additional $3 "booking fee" for making a reservation over the phone.

Megabus charges a $1.50 "booking fee" for making a reservation online.

Greyhound charges a $2.50 "will call fee" to book a reservation online and pick up a printed ticket at the station and get this... they charge a $2.50 "booking fee" if you book a reservation online and print my own ticket at home. That's right... you get to pay to use your own ink and paper. The only way to avoid Greyhound's fees is to book a reservation online, go down to a 7-Eleven and pay with cash.

I get that there are charges associated with accepting credit cards (typically 2.3 - 2.5%) but those fees should be included the price of a ticket (especially since Greyhound should be encouraging passengers to be paying by cars).

In my opinion, one of the best things that happened for customers in the past couple years was that airlines are now required to publish fares including all taxes and fees. It would be nice if that rule was extended to all transportation.


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## Green Maned Lion

If Greyhound pays more than 1% on credit transaction fees, I'd like to meet the head of their financing department so I can laugh at him.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> If Greyhound pays more than 1% on credit transaction fees, I'd like to meet the head of their financing department so I can laugh at him.


Right, what I should have said was "no more than 2.5%". To my understanding, that's on the higher end of transaction fees charged when no card is present.


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## Green Maned Lion

I pay 2.75, but I'm a tiny business with a very short track record who does less than 250k in credit cards a year. Greyhound is something else entirely.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That Will Call fee is indeed annoying. I wish they would get rid of it or include it in the fare. They even charge you $2.50 for a Free Ticket to Anywhere through Road Rewards.

But then again, how do I argue against $4 Reno-San Francisco? That fee is per-transaction, so if I take my regular travel buddy with me and ride round-trip, it's not that bad. I could do $18.50 for all the transportation.

OK, I don't know what Greyhound is thinking right now, but they dropped Sacramento-Portland fares. That route is already packed, but they dropped the minimal fare from $69 to $51.50. Now 1446 probably going to get sold out daily. 1436 and 1440 are already sold out daily. Today's 1446, 1436, and 1440 are all sold out or almost sold out on that segment, and it's a _Tuesday_, not even close to the weekend.


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## rickycourtney

I agree that the "will call fee" is a pain in the ass... but at least I can rationalize it (they're paying to have staff at the stations and you're consuming ticket stock and a ticket jacket).

But my gripe is that at the moment if you buy a Greyhound ticket on your smartphone you have to pick it up at will call... drivers can't scan tickets on your phone yet. So passengers who buy their ticket on their phones are forced to pay a fee (or walk down to a 7-Eleven). And if you buy your ticket on your home computer you have to pay the same fee to print out your own ticket.

Essentially you're penalizing who could be "better" customers... ones who can buy tickets online.

Is there a fee for buying a ticket from an agent at a station with my credit card? I'm not talking about the penalty from purchasing a "day-of" ticket... but say I went down to the station today to buy a ticket from Seattle to Portland on Wednesday, 8/20. The "web only" fare is $10, I'm guessing I'd be charged the "advanced purchase" fare of $26.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know about that, but anyway, the "Will Call Fee" used to be called "Facility Fee", so I think it's meant to pay for the bus stations and station employees. But I know you don't pay a few if you buy walk-up with cash, because the walk-up fares are so huge they would pay for the station already.

So basically Greyhound is trying to pay for the station, one way or another. Yeah, $26 is $16 more than $10, so you still save with Web Only. I think that's the logic. In Reno, buy a walk-up to San Francisco, have fun paying $33.50, or book online and pay $4, add booking fee, book round-trip, and take some others, neutralize it the best you can. I don't know what else to say. It's like those stupid Premier seats, you can sit on them and sag or put a pillow and be much more comfortable.

If I were Greyhound's CEO, I would take away that fee, charge $6 minimum to San Francisco instead, and replace the seats, but I'm not Greyhound's CEO. And with $6, you would still lose money, so nothing's perfect.


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## rickycourtney

Those $6 fares are loss leaders.

Greyhound gets a few "bargain hunters" in the door on a new "Greyhound Express" route. In my opinion, Greyhound is hoping that these people who might not otherwise take a bus... try it... like it... and recommend it to their friends.

Greyhound can make up the lost money by charging high fares for last minute tickets, purchased at the station. In my opinion, there will always be a segment of Greyhound's passengers who will buy those tickets.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Except Sacramento-Portland which is sold out every day. But Sacramento-Portland tickets start at $51.50 which should be enough to yield a profit with those packed loads.

I said $4 tickets, not $6 tickets, but there is the $2.50 fee.

Edit: SAC-PUT probably has the richest clientele simply because it's sold out before the suspicious passengers even get to the station.


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## rickycourtney

Either way those are promotional fares. It's much the same as BoltBus and their "Bolt for a Buck" fares. Greyhound Express also promotes fares "as low as $1."


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## Swadian Hardcore

If they are promotional fares, there are no ads promoting them.

Anyway, right now I think Greyhound's biggest problem is those sagging Premier LS seats. Yeah, the photography ban is annoying, but it's unenforceable and rarely enforced. Yeah, the booking fee isn't desirable, but the fares are cheap enough that it doesn't really matter. Yeah, the White G sucks, but they are getting rebuilt ASAP. Yeah, there's bad passengers, but most passengers are not and the driver dish out the punishment as an example.

So the biggest problem is sagging new seats. Greyhound, please, please, please fix the seats! Add a new bottom cushion or order something else to replace them.


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## rickycourtney

I'm not sure I agree that the Premier "sags". I agree that the seat cushion is very flat (not angled up like most seats). My biggest complaint is that the bottom seat cushions are hard as a rock and the back cushion feels like it's going straight up. It has no lumbar support and it doesn't cradle you during turns.

But no matter what you think is wrong with it... we all agree it's a horrible seat.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh, the Premier LS on #86307 was definitely sagging. The center part of the seat bottom had a massive dip in it. I believe that is sagging, however that may not apply to all Premier LS.


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## rickycourtney

Two more thoughts:

I've seen quite a few complaints online about how there's still no way to track arrival information on buses. Even at the station level it seems that agents just know that the bus is late... they don't know HOW late it is. I'd love to see Greyhound put some sort of tracking systems on their buses so customers can track them in realtime. At the very least drivers should be calling into dispatch when they make a stop to report their current delays so passengers can be updated.

Greyhound's standard seating for terminals is pretty bad too. It's hard metal and it has strange placement of armrests. So not only are they uncomfortable... it's possible for people to sleep across several seats. It would be nice to see them swap them out with something that at least has a little padding.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey guys, so I found this Las Vegas Bus Sales vid of a 1995 MC-12 for sale, with NO rest in the engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaU8zuL8gSc. And only 80,000 miles? I'm thinking it's either a scam or it's not an ex-Greyhound MC-12, but very few MC-12's very built for other operators.
> 
> Also, I found that old restored MC-7 Richfield has: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboys/6154820020/in/[email protected]/.
> 
> It has this interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboys/4204420443/in/[email protected]/.
> 
> Looks nice and cozy to me, more comfortable-looking than a new Greyhound with the sagging seats. And this is the only time I've seen nice curtains on a bus, all the other ones I've seen have been intrusive and dirty, more problems than rewards. Did all the old MC-7's have that interior?
> 
> Also, regarding TV's on Greyhound buses, I think they made the right choice not having them, sleeping is quite easy right now with no running lights at all inside, complete natural lighting at night. Flashing TV's would be a major annoyance, sound or not. Even a GPS map would be annoying. It would only be useful in the daytime. It would be useful to play announcements and safety procedures. But completely pointless and annoying when the bus is already cruising down the highway. So Greyhound might as well save the money like they are right now, and not add them to buses.


Great photo links!

That MC-7 looks almost pristine......

Those particular seats are made by National. I have gone cross-country in them, and I can tell you, they are very comfortable...the contours, which are not quite apparent in the photo, fit me like a glove. At that time, both National and American suppied seats to GMC and MCI buyer's. Eagle's had their own proprietary seats, which featured adjustable back, head, and footrests.....

There was one 'bad' seat design in that erra...Greyhound ordered a series of MC-7's that had "theater-style" seat cushions that sprung up when not occupied. The spring housing between the seats was very uncomfortable, if you happened to 'straddle' a bit over it. I suppose it was intended to make cleaning the floors easier, and to prevent someone from 'hogging' two seats....just placing a coat or other lightweight object on it would not hold it down....

There were also a series of MC-5A and early MC-7's that had the 'loose pillowtop' headrests, that allowed you to adjust them somewhat vertically....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Dispatch is in Dallas, all in Dallas, Greyhound Canada dispatch is all in Burlington. Drivers are not supposed to call in to dispatch while driving. I don't even think Greyhound buses are equipped for long-distance radio transmissions. Even airplanes don't do such transmissions. Most Greyhound drivers don't even have or don't know how to use a smartphone. Communication is virtually nonexistent outside of the stations. Once a bus leaves the station, the driver is on his own until he reaches the next station. Of course he can call emergency services in the case of a breakdown, but not while driving.

Greyhound prohibits GPS use for fear of misguidance and/or distracting the driver.

Basically, drivers are trained to drive, take care of passengers, drive very well, and do nothing else but drive. They are not even trained to refuel a bus even though most know how to do that anyway.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm more interested in the seats right now. So National used to make great seats.....well they don't have a seat page on their website right now. I think they offer the 4210S and 4210A, both of which have tapered headrests. You know how much I dislike that kind of headrests, but the 4210S looks quite comfortable.

Here is a 102EL3 with National 4210S: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1998-mci-102el3-54-passenger-charter-bus-with-rei-entertainment-system-c60392.

I know Greyhound does not use them. Anyone know if they are comfortable or not?

Yeah, I'm cruising around Las Vegas Bus Sales. They have lots of nice photos of videos of buses.

Edit: It appears Torino VIP is no longer offered in the US due to lack of containment. Freedman and Suburban bothoffer the Torino G Plus instead. That is also the standard seating on new MCI D4505 and J4500 equipment.


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## Green Maned Lion

Everybody knows how to use a smartphone- 5 year olds can usually pick them up and figure them out.


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## rickycourtney

You're making it harder than it needs to be. Since the dawn of the railroads conductors have been relaying the status of their trains to dispatch. First though telegraph offices, then telephones at staffed stations and then automated touchtone systems. Now there is a device on the locomotive that uses GPS to determine its location and sends that back to Amtrak's Consolidated National Operations Center in Delaware.

That's what I mean when I said GPS. GPS simply tells you where you are in the world... a navigation system is totally different (and I understand why Greyhound doesn't want drivers to have navigation systems).

But reporting delays can be as simple as having the driver pick up a phone to call dispatch when they arrive at a station (or having an agent do it at a staffed station).

With the "long-distance" Greyhound routes... delay reporting is more important than ever.

That being said, it sounds like Greyhound already has some form of GPS tracking and every Greyhound driver will be assigned a iPhone in the next few months... now they need to find a way to communicate that data to passengers. Maybe even turn it into a nifty Google Map.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That is exactly what Greyhound does right. Every time a bus arrives, stations report status to dispatch, and dispatch reports the status to everyone. But if a bus gets stuck in bad weather between two stations, what are you going to do? And when it comes to flag stops and unstaffed stations, again, no luck.

Stations report everything, driver's don't. Greyhound indeed has a GPS tracking system for buses, in fact, they use it to monitor speeds and fire speeding Greyhound drivers. So now every Greyhound driver is not going to dare go about the speed limit more than a few mph or a few more mph for passing.


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## rickycourtney

Then why not post that information at stations? Bus xxxx is xxx minutes late.

Also if they have GPS tracking already installed... it's high time for them to offer a way for customers to track a bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know if they have GPS tracking installed. But you have to remember, Greyhound stations don't even have an Arrivals/Departures board. You have to ask the ticket agent for everything.

I'm sure Greyhound will start fixing these problems after they deal with the G4500 rebuilds. And I do think they are doing complete rebuilds because of how much the buses improved. I'm thinking a full $140,000 into each G. The DL3 cost $120,000 each to rebuild, but the DL3 was never beat-to-hell like the G was.

Also, Greyhound did not cancel any order, they still have the D4505 order, but that was suspended due to deferred payments. Greyhound is either threatening MCI over the D4505 problems, or they don't have enough money.

Communications systems require time and money to set up, something Greyhound is short of right now, with all those low promo fares.

On another note, I've found a myriad of 102EL3's for sale. Greyhound didn't order these back in the day. Look at this: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-coach-1998-mci-102el3-luxury-tourist-bus-c60254.

They have the famous "airliner" looks and spiral staircase. I wonder why there are so many for sale right now, since not that many were built. I haven't heard about these in a long time, except that they were replaced with the Restyled J4500 in mid-2012. I rode a few in Hawaii and other place, I remember they were comfortable and smooth-riding, and always came standard with cloth velour National 4210S. So what do you guys think of this coach?


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## Green Maned Lion

One way to cancel an order is to stop paying for it. Believe me, in the world of business, if you have enough credit to place an order without paying in full to begin with, you have enough credit to finance it's purchase.

If Greyhound wanted more MCI D4505s and had profitable use for them, they'd have them.


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## railiner

Greyhound has been keeping track somewhat of schedule movements to a limited degree, going back a very long time....

Currently, at major terminal's, driver's utilize the BOSS computer's for their Load Count Entry, which when "complete", enters the entry time at that particular terminal, which then reports how many minutes late, (000L if on time), that trip is operating. That info is updated each time the entry is made enroute. It doesn't show what happens if the driver neglects to make the entry, or if delays occur at intermediate points, which can be many hours apart.

Even when I was with Greyhound, in 1971-1973, the dispatcher's used the old Greycom computer system to "O S" the schedules, via paper tapes on the ancient teletype machines.

So the system was not perfect, but was better than nothing. Back then, if a driver was delayed enroute, he would call in to notify dispatch if possible, and advise of any connecting passenger's he had aboard.

As far as the GPS....I don't know what is happening with the CADEC system lately, as they seem to have been fully or partially disabled....you don't have to "log on" in order to start most of the buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner, what's your opinion of the EL3? That bus kinda disappeared and faded away into nowhere. It was all the fadwhen it first came out.

I think the D4505 order problems are two-fold. First of all, they don't have use for them right this moment. Second of all, they probably want to threaten MCI a bit because the newest 86500-series has been suffering computer and suspension problems. Not to mention Greyhound apparently doesn't like the Cummins ISX12, and would prefer Detroit 13.


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## Green Maned Lion

See? Even Greyhound prefers DBAG engine.


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## railiner

My company never ordered the "Renaissance" (EL-3)....we went from our last 102D-3 to the J4500, so I don't have much knowledge of the EL-3, other than what I've seen or read about. To me, there isn't much difference between the "E's" and the "J's"....visually, the "E" has the extra band of glass above the windshield, and different tailights, And a different instrument panel. Mechanically the "E" has the steerable tag axle, and a more complex electronic system. Other than that, I don't really know.

Personally, I strongly dislike both of them, ergonomically speaking for driving. Even after what, 13 years?....I still don't feel 'at home' in them.

I believe MCI rushed the "E" into production, apparently in an effort to save their market share that the Prevost "H", and other "Euro design" coaches was taking from them...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Green Maned Lion said:


> See? Even Greyhound prefers DBAG engine.


True, MCI is partially-owned by DBAG. And Cummins, well Cummins engines are horrible in the D4505 by dropping 1 whole MPG compared to Detroit, Volvo, or CAT, but CAT doesn't make engines for buses anymore.



railiner said:


> My company never ordered the "Renaissance" (EL-3)...............I still don't feel 'at home' in them.
> 
> I believe MCI rushed the "E" into production, apparently in an effort to save their market share that the Prevost "H", and other "Euro design" coaches was taking from them...


I think MCI might've rushed the E into production, but nonetheless, it was the first "airliner coach" in the market. And that spiral stairwell was something. Probably why the E was such a fad in those days, and right now, some 1998 E4500's still sell for $109,000.


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## railiner

Why do you call it an "airliner coach"? I agree the 'spiral' staircase is trendy, first the Prevost 'H' and now the Van Hool "C" have copied them to some extant.

Personally, I like the 'L' shape stairway, with a straight, flat dash design, much better....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I know, I prefer the good old design too, but I'm just saying the E is interesting because it was the first coach with a spiral staircase, round lavatory module, round parcel racks, round dashboard, round everything. Even the National 4210S seats are rounded.

To me, this looks like it was patterns directly after airliners: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-yellow-bus-1998-mci-102-el3-54-passenger-coach-c60123.

Now this E4500 interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/flyer_901/5184008020/in/[email protected]/.

Look at those interiors! Definitely looks like a plane interior more than a bus interior.

Now _this _is a bus interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14664633614.

I know it was probably not a great coach, but they are selling a lot of second-hands ones for $89,000 or $109,000. That's a lot of money for a fiberglass, high-deck coach that is not very liked by drivers. From a passenger perspective, they're OK to me, at least for short rides. They just feel like flying on a plane. IMO, the EL3 and the D4505 are the only good Megabus units.


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## rickycourtney

So to take this discussion about interiors in a totally different direction... check this company out: vonlane.com

Forget looking like like the interior of coach... this looks like like first class on an airplane (I think it's even nicer than that). I love the look love those seats (like big La-Z-Boy recliners) and I'm digging the tile backsplash in the galley and bathroom (which also has a real toilet and sink).

Even at the top price of $200 round trip it beats flying (both in comfort and time) for a trip under 4 hours.


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## Green Maned Lion

Detroit Diesel is a fully owned subsidiary of Daimler. Further, there current products are modified Mercedes-Benz diesels much the same way current Mack engines are modified Volvos.

Although in Mack's case the move was a substantial downgrade, while in Detroits case the shelving of their GM legacy products was a massive upgrade.


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## Green Maned Lion

Further that blue cloth interior is GORGEOUS. And looks really comfy. I remember it from some AmCal busses. NICE.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If I was a well-heeled businessman, one who could let someone else foot the bill, I would ride Vonlane. So, that's Vonlane target market. Now the H3-45 is considered "World's Most Luxurious Bus", so what do you expect? Too bad a regular-seated H3-45 isn't that great.

That blue cloth interior is Torino G Plus seating in a E4500 show coach. With the apparent demise of the Torino VIP (no longer offered by dealers), the G Plus has taken over to become the premier luxury seating in the market.


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## rickycourtney

They also seem to be targeting passengers on Southwest Airlines (who skew more towards the leisure market) with the promise of better amenities, equal travel times and lower prices.

Also I don't know how you can praise this coach and say the seated ones aren't that good. Mechanically they're the same bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> They also seem to be targeting passengers on Southwest Airlines (who skew more towards the leisure market) with the promise of better amenities, equal travel times and lower prices.
> 
> Also I don't know how you can praise this coach and say the seated ones aren't that good. Mechanically they're the same bus.


What I mean to say is that it is the "World's Most Luxurious Bus" but if you give it regular seating then it is no longer luxurious and thus not that great, because its main advantage is the _ability _to install luxury amenities. Remember, it is not favored by drivers due to its size, height, and slow speed. It can lub lots of cargo, but even a Blue G can also do that.

Case in point:

H3-45 regular: http://www.mike-stephenson.com/buses/usacoaches/DSCN2126-0806.jpg.

102DL3 regular: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg.

Edit: Now you see, the 102DL3 cost less, uses less fuel, is preferred by drivers and mechanics, is tougher, goes faster, and offers the same regular amenities to passengers except for luggage capacity. Reinforcing my point that the H3-45 is good for super-luxury and freight-hauling.

By the way, Greyhound is also attacking Southwest by offering more legroom after Southwest cut legroom.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The 102DL3 is not up to current emissions standards. Fit them so that they could meet it, with SCR and all the other stuff, and it probably wouldn't perform so well.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

True, but an older H3-45 is also EPA-incompliant. And the H3-45 will never perform as well as a 102DL3 because it is MUCH taller and.

Now you put a Detroit 13 into a DL3 and that's going to perform great while meeting EPA standards. Can't say the same for a H3-45 with Volvo D13.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The Volvo D13 and the Detroit/Mercedes 13liter are fairly comparable.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah I know, but the H3-45 is very, very tall. I'm sure it is very efficient at pulling mixed pax and freight, like this: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/orleans/orleans6057.jpg.

IMO, you either go for luxury, or you go freight. Otherwise, there are better coaches out there, like the Restyled J4500 which is great for charters and tours, but not as luxurious.


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> So to take this discussion about interiors in a totally different direction... check this company out: vonlane.com
> 
> Forget looking like like the interior of coach... this looks like like first class on an airplane (I think it's even nicer than that). I love the look love those seats (like big La-Z-Boy recliners) and I'm digging the tile backsplash in the galley and bathroom (which also has a real toilet and sink).
> 
> Even at the top price of $200 round trip it beats flying (both in comfort and time) for a trip under 4 hours.


Yes, very nice....We did discuss this line in another thread, a while back....

I wonder how they're doing....so far just the one Dallas/Austin route?


----------



## rickycourtney

Not exactly sure what the height of the coach has to do with anything... but here's the breakdown:

Model - Overall Height (Interior Height)

H3-45 - 146.25" (77")

X3-45 - 134" (80")

J4500 - 140.75" (78.25")

D4505 - 137" (78.25")

So Prevost makes both the tallest and shortest coaches and the difference is all of one foot.

Also, there are drivers that prefer manual transmissions... but no bus companies are building buses around them anymore. Maintenance prefers old engines with less electronics... but they spew out emissions.

There's no since in comparing a 15 year old bus (that is out of production) to a brand new bus.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

You are mistaken, the 102DL3 is still in production as the D4500CL (NOT the D4500CT).

Edit: Also, I meant the old H3-45 that started production in 1994.

Everyone knows the H3-45 is great for luxury, for a motorhome, for hauling cargo, and not for anything else. Yeah you can use it for charters and tours, but for that purpose, a J4500 is cheaper and with a Detroit 13, it would be more efficient, too. A J4500 costs the same as a D4505 or X3-45. The H3-45 costs more.


----------



## railiner

If you think that Volane's coaches are luxurious....take a look at what money can buy....  http://www.marathoncoach.com/coach--videos

Now if one of those was used on a line run......


----------



## RichardK

railiner said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> So to take this discussion about interiors in a totally different direction... check this company out: vonlane.com
> 
> Forget looking like like the interior of coach... this looks like like first class on an airplane (I think it's even nicer than that). I love the look love those seats (like big La-Z-Boy recliners) and I'm digging the tile backsplash in the galley and bathroom (which also has a real toilet and sink).
> 
> Even at the top price of $200 round trip it beats flying (both in comfort and time) for a trip under 4 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, very nice....We did discuss this line in another thread, a while back....
> 
> I wonder how they're doing....so far just the one Dallas/Austin route?
Click to expand...

They have coaches on order to serve both Houston and San Antonio, starting next year. On their Facebook page, they even asked customers to suggest possible custom modifications to these buses.

Their Director of Business Development contacted me about partnering with our company for transportation needs. This is really the market they are targeting.

It seems business is picking up with them. Saturday and Sunday service has been launched along with charter services.

Yes, the published fare is $100 one way. However, they offer an early morning fare to Austin for $40 and a late night to Dallas for $75. When you open an account, there is access to some $85 fares. Included are free drinks, snacks, and computer accessories, such as mouse, flash drives,etc. for use.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> If you think that Volane's coaches are luxurious....take a look at what money can buy....  http://www.marathoncoach.com/coach--videos
> 
> Now if one of those was used on a line run......


Woah, no doubt the H3-45 is well-known as the "World's Most Luxurious Bus"!

By the way, I tried to find out more about the EL3, and it seems like it was supposed to replace the DL3 in 2000. Look what happened. And the G4500 was supposed to be Greyhound's workhorse, yeah right. At least the Blue G is great and could actually be Greyhound's workhorse, if Greyhound can get more of them (which they can't, 'cause it's out of production permanently).

Edit: Right now I'm really interested to learn more about the EL3 because one moment it was all the fad, then it faded away, and now it's out of production.


----------



## railiner

Marathon, does some very nice custom work, indeed.....I believe they were the ones selected by the Secret Service to build the President's coach, although that was based on the X-3, due to its better ability to be armored (details are of course classified....).

As for the E-4500, the biggest reason MCI ended its production, was the J-4500 outsold it by far. I believe that they did incorporate some of the 'E's features into the updated 'J's...

Swadian, are you certain the J-4500 costs the same as a D-4505? I don't know, but it doesn't seem logical, to me......... :unsure:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> ......
> 
> Swadian, are you certain the J-4500 costs the same as a D-4505? I don't know, but it doesn't seem logical, to me......... :unsure:


Hey, a guy running a charter bus company, Eric Gregory, says the J4500 costs the same as the D4505. Yeah, I know. He also has a D4005 "Shorty".

I don't know what MCI was doing in the late 1990s, but guys on GTE say they told all their customers the 102DL3 would be replaced by the 102EL3 in 2000, which prompted Greyhound Canada to order 102EL3's in 1998, units that were soon relegated to charters and tours. Then MCI said they would not stop production of the DL3 due to disappointments with the EL3, until a new, cheaper replacement, the GL3, became available. Obviously, the GL3, produced as the G4500, failed miserably. But I'm thinking that, at least in the late 1990s, MCI would have offered the EL3 at the same price as the DL3 because that was supposed to be its replacement. So it would be no surprise the J4500 is offered at the same price at the D4505, given both have the same amenities before options.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You are mistaken, the 102DL3 is still in production as the D4500CL (NOT the D4500CT).


I'm pretty sure the D4500CL is out of production, replaced by the D4500CT. But there's not much difference between the two models. The letters only refer to the styling (CL= CLassic, CT= ConTemporary) with the CT having the new headlights, rear grille and bonded windows (all things that are standard on the D4505 now).



railiner said:


> If you think that Volane's coaches are luxurious....take a look at what money can buy....  http://www.marathoncoach.com/coach--videos
> 
> Now if one of those was used on a line run......


Those are some nice coaches. But the company that did the upfitting for Vonlane is Amadas Coach. They also worked on the J4500 buses for Limoliner that runs between Boston and New York (they aren't quite as posh as Vonlane).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey, a guy running a charter bus company, Eric Gregory, says the J4500 costs the same as the D4505.


This makes since to me... the J4500 has more bells and whistles, but a lower build quality (fine for charter operators) and the D4500 skips many of the features, but is built a little more durably (for line-haul buses).


----------



## rickycourtney

RichardK said:


> They have coaches on order to serve both Houston and San Antonio, starting next year. On their Facebook page, they even asked customers to suggest possible custom modifications to these buses.
> 
> Their Director of Business Development contacted me about partnering with our company for transportation needs. This is really the market they are targeting.
> 
> It seems business is picking up with them. Saturday and Sunday service has been launched along with charter services.
> 
> Yes, the published fare is $100 one way. However, they offer an early morning fare to Austin for $40 and a late night to Dallas for $75. When you open an account, there is access to some $85 fares. Included are free drinks, snacks, and computer accessories, such as mouse, flash drives,etc. for use.


I wish them the best of luck!

I think it was smart move going with hotels for stops. Like the other curbside operators they skip the expense of building stations, but unlike other curbside operators you can offer much better services to customers. On Vonlane's Facebook page they say that each hotel has a nice lobby with seating, a restaurant/bar, parking (valet & self-park) and offers discounts to Vonlane passengers.


----------



## railiner

I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).

But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.


----------



## RichardK

railiner said:


> I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).
> 
> But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.





railiner said:


> I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).
> 
> But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.


This has to be good business for the hotel, when potential guests are dropped right at your front door. In return, Vonlane passengers get free parking and a waiting room.

Vonlane is not competing with Greyhound or Megabus anyway. Their competition is Southwest Airlines. A walk up fare at Southwest is a minimum of $215 to Austin. The travel time is roughly equivalent if you consider time spent parking at the airport, going through security and getting back into town from the airport. With Vonlane you can get there 5 minutes before departure and just walk on.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, I was just in Denver, and rode a bunch of brand-new D4500CL's, not D4500CT's. Yeah, it's still in production, but not listed on MCI's website because they are barely different from the D4500CT.

AFAIK, the "vanilla" J4500 doesn't have a lot more bells or whistles than the D4505, hence the similar price. Yeah, a few more, not a lot more. The H3-45 must have a ton.


----------



## rickycourtney

Okay touché. Those are 2013 D4500CL's. But according to MCI there's not much difference between the D4500CL and the D4500CT:

The 'CT' in the new D4500CT model stands for 'Contemporary'. It is an option package that blends some of the esthetic exterior updates of the D4505 with many of the functional attributes of the traditional D4500CL. The CT version adds the revised lower front fascia, projector headlamps, and LED turn signals along with the frameless sash, disc brakes, and six-wheel ABS from the D4505 to the traditional D coach.

Michael Melaniphy from MCI says, "This combination has been especially popular with both line-haul and commuter coach operators who want to combine the fresh look of the D4505 while retaining the full-size destination sign, rugged five-MPH front bumper, flexible rubber fenders and durable rubber lower rub rails."


----------



## rickycourtney

RichardK said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).
> 
> But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is fine to operate near a business like LimoLiner and Vonlane do, as they have made some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with the proprietor's of those businesses (hotel's).
> 
> But I strongly resent companies (I'm talking about you, Megabus), that operate like parasites, paying nothing for their customer's to use other businesses shelter, toilets, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This has to be good business for the hotel, when potential guests are dropped right at your front door. In return, Vonlane passengers get free parking and a waiting room. Vonlane is not competing with Greyhound or Megabus anyway. Their competition is Southwest Airlines. A walk up fare at Southwest is a minimum of $215 to Austin. The travel time is roughly equivalent if you consider time spent parking at the airport, going through security and getting back into town from the airport. With Vonlane you can get there 5 minutes before departure and just walk on.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly agree. It's a total win-win for both companies.

On the departures end the hotel gets to charge for parking (only the Dallas hotel offers free parking, it's in a non-secured lot) and if passengers arrive early they might grab a bite to eat or a drink at the restaurant.

On the arrivals end the hotel gets a bus load of potential, high value customers.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

You just backed-up my point that the "DL3" is still in production, not exactly the same, but pretty close. See, this is why I think Greyhound should order the D4500CL or CT with Detroit 13. MCI has the full capability to build intercity-spec D4500CT's at the same cost as Greyhound's newest D4505's.

I actually heard the smaller original headlights (dual halogens) are better for "night driving in the mountains".

Also, the Denver RTD D4500CL's have sedan doors. And the YARTS D4500CT's have lavatories. MCI's website shows they are available with video systems, enclosed parcel racks, and everything else Greyhound might want in an intercity coach.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Swabian, given the potential size of a Greyhound order, they can probably get whatever they want.


----------



## rickycourtney

GML is right. Greyhound is really the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to purchasing motorcoaches. I can't think of any other operator in America who buys more. They can really get anything they want.

That being said... the company has spent the last few years buying buses in a "panic mode". They had to have enough wheelchair lift equipped buses on the roster to run all the routes and comply with the ADA. they took what the manufacturers could quickly build. They may have been skipping certain options (they would have otherwise ordered) to get the buses off the assembly lines faster.

But it sounds like the difference between the D4500CL (102DL3) and the D4505 boils down to this:

new front and rear fascia

projector headlamps

LED turn signals

frameless windows

disc brakes

six-wheel ABS

fiberglass color matched bumper, fenders and lower rub rails

Those are mostly aesthetic differences... not mechanical. Therefore there shouldn't be any big changes to the way the bus rides, sounds or operates. What has changed that is the motors. EPA regulations make it impossible to use the 102DL3's motor in a D4505 or a brand new D4500. So no matter what... that's gone and it's never coming back.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

You forgot a few, Ricky. The D4505 comes with a higher passenger deck, less fuel capacity, and for the 2014 model year, MCI "improved" the suspension which ended up causing more problems for Greyhound's 86500-series after #86527.

Anyways, Burlington Trailways has switched from ordering D4505's to ordering Restyled J4500's. Likewise, they currently use brand-new plain-white J4500's on line haul into Denver. Peter Pan is doing the same. Perhaps MCI improved the old J4500 with the new design, like new electronics, but tried to put the same features in the D4505, and made it worse. Like you said, they cost the same due to each having its own advantages, but did MCI ruin the D4505 by trying to make it more like a J4500?

So Greyhound could test the Restyled J4500 and see what happens, now that the fleet shortage has been largely alleviated.

Of course Greyhound is still packed out of Denver and needs some short-hauls out of that city to deal with regional passengers, and they are packed on the Sacramento-Portland and Los Angeles-Phoenix, among others. Capacity boosts are needed because ridership is going up and capacity went down due to increased legroom and ADA-incompliance.

Again, Greyhound dropped fares on Sacramento-Portland, even though that route is sold out all the time. For some reason, they are not sold out today.

Does the J4500 or D4500CL/CT have a place in Greyhound's future fleet? Let's see.


----------



## railiner

Swadian, I think you got that reversed...the D4505 'passenger deck' is the same height as the D4500, DL-3, or any other variation of the "D"....

the "J" has the higher passenger deck....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You forgot a few, Ricky. The D4505 comes with a higher passenger deck, less fuel capacity, and for the 2014 model year, MCI "improved" the suspension which ended up causing more problems for Greyhound's 86500-series after #86527.


The D4500 and the D4505 both have an overall height of 137 inches and an interior height of 78.25 inches. The D4500 and the D4505 both have 173 gallon fuel tanks (164 usable).

MCI doesn't offer specifics about what suspension systems they use on each bus.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Again, Greyhound dropped fares on Sacramento-Portland, even though that route is sold out all the time. For some reason, they are not sold out today.


So I guess it's not sold out all the time.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Why can't you use the last 9 gallons? I remember on my truck you could use all but about half a gallon from either tank. Is MCI really nutty enough to use a single tank system?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, but the old D4500 spec sheet from 2000: https://web.archive.org/web/20010816223715/http://www.mcicoach.com/tourdseries.html. 

Even in 2007: https://web.archive.org/web/20070416112951/http://www.mcicoach.com/NewCoaches/PublicCoaches/publicCommuter.htm. 

Interior height: 82 inches. NOT 78.25 inches.

But by 2010: https://web.archive.org/web/20100213025755/http://www.mcicoach.com/newcoaches/publiccoaches/publicCommuter.htm. 

MCI, what did you do again?


----------



## rickycourtney

They raised the passenger deck 3.75 inches and in turn added 98 cubic feet of volume to the luggage compartments.

But it's become the major difference between the X3-45 and the D4500/D4505...

The X3-45 is shorter overall, but has the industry's best floor-to-ceiling height (80 inches) and while its luggage bays are shorter, since the wheelbase is so long they have the largest surface area of any coach (Prevost claims less need to stack bags).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but the other major difference is that the X3-45 has a complicated computer that requires special training to maintain. The Greyhound mechanics in Denver don't even know how to fix it, so the computer went haywire and the HVAC kept going cold. So the X3-45 is not good for long-haul routes, because if something fails, what are your going to do?

And by the way, Orleans did retire their 2005 Prevosts, so they are definitely not as durable as MCIs. Who retires a 2005 MCI?

AFAIK, the D4505 does not have a multiplexed electronic system. Mechanics say the D is always easier to fix than a E, J, H, X, etc.


----------



## rickycourtney

Both the D4505 and D4500 have a "fully multiplexed solid-state electrical system" just like the X3-45.

If the Denver garage doesn't know how to maintain a bus that comprises over 25% of the fleet... it sounds like Greyhound is doing a lousy job training (or retraining) its mechanics.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps so. But read this discussion: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/29209-prevost-car-x3-45-discussion/.

Yeah, not as durable as MCI. That's why it costs the same even though they were supposed to be "better" due to wheelbase, maneuverability, etc..

And read this thread on GTE: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/topics/39861.

Last post regarding IFS. Prevost has IFS, MCI don't. IFS allows maneuverability with a long wheelbase, but it also greatly increase maint cost. I guess that's why #86284 was riding rough in the front row.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm not sure what that topic demonstrates.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Comparing a bus that was built for commuter service for NYC isn't the same as tearing up the highways across America 24/7. That's like comparing an Genesis being used by Metro North to Amtrak's Genesis locomotives. Completely different scenarios there in both cases.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but as far as I know, IFS is not favored by anyone right now. And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome. It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers. I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab. But then there's people that swear by the J and swear by the D, hell, there's people that swear by the G4500.

But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Another Greyhound article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/us/at-100-greyhound-rolls-back-toward-hipness.html?_r=0.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

IFS is quite capable of massive mileage sand weights, as demonstrated by, for example, the Humvee and the general Ford Twin-I-Beam.

Meanwhile ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics for self diagnosis, maintenance, and regulation of onboard systems. The inability of Greyhound to hire and train computer literate and competent mechanics is not a reflection of the busses design. It may explain other things.

According to numerous sources, for instance, MB's upgrading their vehicles to multiplex CAN-BUS systems has increased MTBF, reduced repair time and cost, and improved par function of onboard systems.


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> They raised the passenger deck 3.75 inches and in turn added 98 cubic feet of volume to the luggage compartments.


Live and learn....I wasn't aware of that....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome.


[citation needed]



Swadian Hardcore said:


> It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers.


GML beat me to it, ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics, including the most recent version of your beloved 102DL3.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab.


Except that the X3-45 is designed to a line-haul bus and J4500 was not (although it can be used as one).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.


Yes they recently retired their 2005 LeMirage XL-II buses. But you're talking about company that has retired EVERY bus they own that is over 10 years old, including their 102DL3's and 102EL3's... so I really don't get your point.


----------



## rickycourtney

Okay so I found this online.

Am I the only one that finds it ridiculous that companies *STILL* order buses with bare, ribbed stainless steel skirts?

Why to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a brand new D4505 or X3-45... just to slap some stainless steel skirts on it and make it look like a 20 year old bus?

You can still a D4505 from the factory with stainless steel skirts, Prevost now only offers the stainless steel skirts on the X3-45 VIP and XLII conversion buses.


----------



## railiner

I like the look of fluted stainless steel or polished aluminum on buses. I guess my affection started with the first Budd streamliner's and GMC Silverside's, and went from there....

Back then it represented "modern", compared to the all-painted heavyweight's they replaced....


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I guess making your fleet look ancient is a new fad with companies these days. Of course I'm use to seeing ancient coaches around here, look where I live.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I dunno why NJT does it. I think they are trying to hide just how much money they waste on pointless equipment replacements.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> And remember, the X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome.
> 
> 
> 
> [citation needed]
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has complicated electronics that gets everyone confused, even veteran drivers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> GML beat me to it, ALL vehicles now have complicated electronics, including the most recent version of your beloved 102DL3.
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the X3-45 is almost a J4500 with steel instead of fiberglass and a lower passenger deck, lower height in general. Of course it's favored by drivers over the J because of the smooth ride and nice cab.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except that the X3-45 is designed to a line-haul bus and J4500 was not (although it can be used as one).
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> But guess what? Orleans retired their 2005 Prevosts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes they recently retired their 2005 LeMirage XL-II buses. But you're talking about company that has retired EVERY bus they own that is over 10 years old, including their 102DL3's and 102EL3's... so I really don't get your point.
Click to expand...

1. Robert Moore and other bus mechanics, plus charter bus owner Eric, and Prevost enthusiast Derek, have all said it was deigned s a motorhome, not a line-haul bus. Think of it, the X3-45 was revised from the XL-II in 2005, or maybe 2004. In 2005, Prevost had barely any market share of line-hauls, and barely any of their production was for line-hauls. OTOH, they had massive shares of the motorhome market, every motorhome owner aspired to own a Prevost.

2. Yeah, all vehicles have complicated electronics. Prevost have the most complicated electronics. Also, Kit never said the Denver mechanics "didn't know" how to fix them, he said they "couldn't" fix them. Perhaps Denver was not stocked with Prevost parts. Or perhaps the bus was simply not going to fixed without LOTS of trouble. And Kit said the bus log has complaints from Philadelphia. They could have fixed it before running all the way out west, I mean, there's plenty of Greyhound based from Saint Louis and Denver. They didn't do that. BTW, Greyhound does not run between Chicago and Denver, they only go through Saint Louis.

3. Yeah, IFS can last a long time. Prevosts can last a million miles. More? I doubt it. That new #86284 already had a rubber strap hanging off the undercarriage. You can blame Greyhound, but is a new bus supposed to have that happen already? And the X3-45 is supposed to ride "smooth as silk", well, not #86284. As I said from my immediate post after returning, the coach did not ride better than the D4505 #86307 which I took the other way. Moreover, that D4505 was beat-up with heavy wear in the lavatory, armrests, seat covers, etc.

4. Who said the X3-45 was "designed" as a line-haul bus? Perhaps designers had that in mind, but that doesn't mean it was designed specifically for line-haul. And many companies do use the J4500 for line-haul with mixed success. The J was based off the E, and the E was supposed to replace the D, so it had line-haul in mind.

5. Orleans only operated 1998 DL3's, and did not order any more D's. Though Adirondack does have some old H3-41's in service, I believe. Yes, I said H3-41.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Silversides? Looks cool to me. This looks great: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_984.jpg.

By the way, AFAIK, that 1995 DL3 is still in service, and was supposed to be replaced by the remaining order of D4505's, but that order was suspended for unknown reasons, so they'll still be around for awhile.


----------



## railiner

Adirondack traded in the last of their H3-41's a year ago, and the older H3-40's before that....

The last to go were 62962 and 62964, which were wheelchair lift equipped...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So what are you guys' oldest coaches now?


----------



## railiner

We have a few 1998 H3-45's still running, followed by our XL-II's, and our J4500's....we have already traded in several J's....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 1. Robert Moore and other bus mechanics, plus charter bus owner Eric, and Prevost enthusiast Derek, have all said it was deigned s a motorhome, not a line-haul bus. Think of it, the X3-45 was revised from the XL-II in 2005, or maybe 2004. In 2005, Prevost had barely any market share of line-hauls, and barely any of their production was for line-hauls. OTOH, they had massive shares of the motorhome market, every motorhome owner aspired to own a Prevost.


No, I want a real citation... not a list of some non-notable people. I've never seen an article in a trade publication that says the "X3-45 was not designed for line-haul service. It was designed as a motorhome."
Here's a fun fact: Prevost has been building buses since 1924. Here's another fun fact: the aforementioned Orléans Express at one point rostered Prevost Champion's built in 1976.

I don't have a dog in this fight... but I think you're being unfair.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> 2. Yeah, all vehicles have complicated electronics. Prevost have the most complicated electronics.


Again... [citation needed]



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, Kit never said the Denver mechanics "didn't know" how to fix them, he said they "couldn't" fix them. Perhaps Denver was not stocked with Prevost parts. Or perhaps the bus was simply not going to fixed without LOTS of trouble. And Kit said the bus log has complaints from Philadelphia. They could have fixed it before running all the way out west, I mean, there's plenty of Greyhound based from Saint Louis and Denver. They didn't do that. BTW, Greyhound does not run between Chicago and Denver, they only go through Saint Louis.


If the bus couldn't be fixed, why did Denver put it back on the road?If it wasn't fixed in St. Louis, why was it put back on the road?

If it wasn't fixed in Philadelphia, why was it put back on the road?

Again back to my point, it sounds like Greyhound needs some retraining for its mechanics... including telling them to not put a broken bus out on the road.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> 3. Yeah, IFS can last a long time. Prevosts can last a million miles. More? I doubt it. That new #86284 already had a rubber strap hanging off the undercarriage. You can blame Greyhound, but is a new bus supposed to have that happen already? And the X3-45 is supposed to ride "smooth as silk", well, not #86284. As I said from my immediate post after returning, the coach did not ride better than the D4505 #86307 which I took the other way. Moreover, that D4505 was beat-up with heavy wear in the lavatory, armrests, seat covers, etc.


I know nothing about IFS so I will stay out of that discussion.But I will say the 2009 X3-45 I took just a few weeks ago did ride as "smooth as silk." I guess your mileage (including personal perceptions and prejudices) may vary.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> 4. Who said the X3-45 was "designed" as a line-haul bus? Perhaps designers had that in mind, but that doesn't mean it was designed specifically for line-haul. And many companies do use the J4500 for line-haul with mixed success. The J was based off the E, and the E was supposed to replace the D, so it had line-haul in mind.


According to you... Prevost did:



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Prevost themselves also say the the X3-45 is designed for line-haul, H3-45 is designed for touring.


In METRO Magazine, Prevost says that they worked with Greyhound to design the X3-45 for its line-haul fleet:



> “We worked with Greyhound to design a vehicle with lots of innovations plus an array of safety features that exceed the most stringent industry standards,” said Gaétan Bolduc, president/CEO of Prevost.


In the brochure for the X3-45 it's described as a "premium intercity coach."

Need anymore citations?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> 5. Orleans only operated 1998 DL3's, and did not order any more D's. Though Adirondack does have some old H3-41's in service, I believe. Yes, I said H3-41.


Still my point remains, Orléans Express has retired every bus over 10 years old. So therefore their retirement of Prevost buses proves NOTHING about the quality of Prevost buses.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The Prevost has the most complicated electronics of any vehicle? More complicated than the Volkswagen Phaeton and Bentley Continental? Those have headlamp washers with computers that measure the light output of the individual headlamps and wash one lamp and then the other while maintaining 80% of regular light output by temporarily overpowering the lamp being washed.

Or the Mercedes-Benz W222 S-class which not only has adaptive braking, adaptive cruise control, four zone adaptive climate control with perfuming, fully adaptive road sensing suspension that ELIMINATES all bumps the car deems you do not need to feel (it will, for instance, transmit speed bumps or rumble strips), and active parking, but can actively follow the car in front of if without driver inprut.

Do you really think the Prevost has a fraction of that computer and electronic complexity?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

We'll have to agree to disagree. But to me, X3-45 is overrated. Just like the MC-9. And just like the PD-4501.

That bus was operational, it just had computer problems. Mechanically, it had no problems. That's why Greyhound put back on the road. If they could have fixed it, they would have fixed it. Yet the electronic problems seem to tell me the X3-45 is just another overrated bus. I have not ridden any D with electronic problems, other than the newest D4505's starting #86528. Why does this bus have electronic problems when bet-up pre-rebuild DL3's didn't even have more electronic problems? For that matter, why do the new D4505's have electronic problems?

Realize this: Am I hating on the X3-45? No. It's just overrated. It's just not better than the D4505 anymore because it isn't durable and is not advertised to be durable.

I said the X3-45 was a line-haul coach before riding a damaged and malfunctioning new X3-45. A new line-haul coach should not already be damaged in line-haul service. Yeah, blame it on Greyhound Maintenance again, well Greyhound's CEO is a mechanic himself.

Guess what? 2013 D4505's don't have straps hanging off the underside and other suspension damage. 2013 X3-45's have straps hanging off and suspension damage. Yes, #86246 rode very smoothly. No, #86284 did not ride very smoothly. That means it was likely damaged on the transcon. So you can't use them on the transcon. You can use a D4505 on the transcon without busting the suspension. Not a X3-45. What the heck?

By the way, I already knew Prevost has been building since 1924 and the Champions. I also know the LeMirage was first built in 1967, widened to the LeMirage XL in 1984, later extended to the XL-45, then improved versions XL-II and X3-45 (aka XL-III). No, I did not just look that up. I'm obviously not a Prevost hater, however, I am disappointed in the X3-45 just like I was with the D4505. IMO, older coaches are better except for emissions.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, let's discuss the Sacramento-Portland instead. Next three runs all sold out or close to it. I'm thinking it is indeed sold out all the time, because Greyhound online booking closes two hours before departure, and every run on that route closes at high bucket. I'm thinking 80% full off online booking, or at least 70%. That means walk-ups would fill up the rest of the bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A Greyhound Canada source says the G4500's were bought at $345,000,000. If that is in CAD, then according to 2001 exchange rates, Greyhound US would have purchased each G4500 at only $230,000,000, far lower than the previous source's estimate of $375,000.

Apparently, during MCI's bankruptcy, Laidlaw, then-owner of Greyhound, considered buying shares of MCI to secure supplies of G4500's from Winnipeg, until MCI said the components were busted and the G4500 was dead and a donut.

Floyd Holland apparently insisted the G4500 have MC-9 components and wanted a modern MC-9, essentially. That didn't work. MCI was going to build the coach in Winnipeg, not give it Dina Sahagun, it was going to be like the J4500, a cheaper, simplified E4500, before Floyd's apparent insistence of using MC-9 components.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> A Greyhound Canada source says the G4500's were bought at $345,000,000. If that is in CAD, then according to 2001 exchange rates, Greyhound US would have purchased each G4500 at only $230,000,000, far lower than the previous source's estimate of $375,000.


[citation needed]



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Apparently, during MCI's bankruptcy, Laidlaw, then-owner of Greyhound, considered buying shares of MCI to secure supplies of G4500's from Winnipeg, until MCI said the components were busted and the G4500 was dead and a donut.
> 
> Floyd Holland apparently insisted the G4500 have MC-9 components and wanted a modern MC-9, essentially. That didn't work. MCI was going to build the coach in Winnipeg, not give it Dina Sahagun, it was going to be like the J4500, a cheaper, simplified E4500, before Floyd's apparent insistence of using MC-9 components.


 I know you've seen this article from National Bus Trader. That's how they describe the G4500:



> MCI and Greyhound had already started to talk about a new model in May of 1996. By the time the last MC-12 coach rolled down the MCI assembly line in June of 1999 developments were well underway. Greyhound had tried other models, includ- ing the MCI 102DL3 (now D4500), with some success but wanted something more attuned to their needs. The result was a meeting of the minds with Floyd Holland heading the Greyhound operating and maintenance team out of Dallas, Texas, and Virgil Hoogestraat heading the MCI engineering team out of Roswell, New Mexico.
> 
> Greyhound initially wanted something simple such as the MC-9 with durability and low operating costs. However, as the development process went on, appearance and styling become more and more of a factor. Virgil Hoogestraat and the MCI engineers effectively started off with componentry and systems similar to the D model because of its durability, reliability, and low operating cost. These were simplified in many areas for Greyhound including a fixed tag axle and a simplified engine cooling system. In some areas the MCI engineers improved on the D model such as increased stainless steel and the “filter minder” and other gauges, sensors and maintenance-friendly design of the engine compartment.
> 
> To this was added some of the styling of the E model. However, even the styling was tempered to suit a line haul coach with less curvature on the entry steps and a less ostentatious window arrangement. It was also decided to manufacture the coach at MCI’s facility in Mexico.


Also, don't hold out hope that Greyhound will ever be buying any buses equipped with Detroit Diesel engines again.

As of 2010, the company no longer sells its engines to companies outside of the Daimler family. That's why Prevost switched to the Volvo D13 engine and MCI switched to the Cummins ISX & ISL.

Edit: I guess Daimler is still allowing MCI to buy Detroit Diesel engines on a limited basis. A 410 hp DD13 is an option on the J4500, but the "standard" engine is a 425 hp Cummins ISX. That being said, I don't see Greyhound buying the J4500 and Detroit Diesel engines aren't an option on the D4505.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

However Daimlers marketing agreements with the largely moribund MCI concern would make me think DBAG intends to buy it to get its massive dominance in municipal contracts under its umbrella.


----------



## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> However Daimlers marketing agreements with the largely moribund MCI concern would make me think DBAG intends to buy it to get its massive dominance in municipal contracts under its umbrella.


I don't know if I would call MCI moribund... they are without question the dominant name in motorcoaches here in the US.

But MCI is just now getting a real challenge in the municipal contracts realm. Prevost should be just about ready to start production of the X3-45 Commuter Coach in the US. The bus has been on the market since 2011, but it was built in Canada making it ineligible for federal funds. This version will be built in a factory owned by Nova Bus (another Volvo company).

I find the partnership with Daimler awkward. Setra's S 417 and S 407 compete for the same markets as MCI's J4500 and D4500. So MCI is supposed to be marketing a competitors product on an equal basis?

That being said, if Daimler buys MCI it would be high time for them to streamline their branding. Case in point the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter, or is it the Freightliner Sprinter, or maybe it's the Dodge Sprinter.

That being said it could do wonders for the "image" of public transportation in America if buses had big three point star logos on the front and rear. Here in the US that symbol and the Mercedes-Benz name is synonymous with luxury.

For the record, I think that Prevost should do the same. Who know's the name "Prevost" outside of transportation geeks. They should use the much more recognizable Volvo logo and name.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The Dodge Sprinter died a death when Fiat initiated it's takeover of the remnants of Chrysler. Fiat Chrysler Aitomobiles sells it's own Eurovan under the name Ram ProMaster, an Americanized Fiat Ducato.

The Freightliner Sprinter is aimed at municipalities who would rather not have a German luxury brand on its work trucks for obvious reasons.

That being said, Daimler is in the process of streamlining its American commercial operation. The fact that the Mercedes branded Sprinter has sold well and has not downgraded its image has, in their own words, been a door opener. After all Mercedes industry leading loyalty and the bulk of its customer base is there because of its nonpariel product quality and long standing history. Despite a hiccup in the mid 90s to mid 2000s, Mercedes is the oldest and best manufacturer of motorized vehicles, without exception.

It's not like the other brands which are just gussied up variations of other cars.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Daimler has shares of MCI, that's why MCI will soon be available with ONLY Detroit 13's! That "partnership" is actually because Daimler bought shares of MCI!

Yeah, I got no citation for that G4500 info, it's just word on the street. Not that I'm really taking it seriously, since that coach is long out of production.

Also, the last MC-12 was built in 1998, not 1999. NBT was misguided in their article by MCI and Greyhound publicity. Obviously, NBT overrated the G4500. In fact, coach owners say they went to the UMA Expo in 2001, at Atlantic City, and were introduced to the G4500. But the MCI salesmen basically said "buyer beware".

Be careful about new articles, a recent news article says Greyhound has about 1,300 coaches, their registration page on Texas DMV listed 1554 units.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Daimler has shares of MCI, that's why MCI will soon be available with ONLY Detroit 13's! That "partnership" is actually because Daimler bought shares of MCI!


Very interesting. I agree with GML that Daimler may someday buy MCI.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, I got no citation for that G4500 info, it's just word on the street. Not that I'm really taking it seriously, since that coach is long out of production.
> 
> Also, the last MC-12 was built in 1998, not 1999. NBT was misguided in their article by MCI and Greyhound publicity. Obviously, NBT overrated the G4500. In fact, coach owners say they went to the UMA Expo in 2001, at Atlantic City, and were introduced to the G500. But the MCI salesmen basically said "buyer beware".


If that story is true (and I don't doubt that it is) it's pretty funny. Looking at the Wayback Machine... MCI listed the G4500 on its website for years, even after the F series coaches were gone. I'm guessing they built too many and tried to sell off the remaining inventory with limited success.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Be careful about new articles, a recent news article says Greyhound has about 1,300 coaches, their registration page on Texas DMV listed 1554 units.


I think there are likely about 1,300 "Greyhound" buses in the fleet. Remember that BoltBus (and some of the other brands) use Greyhound's operating authority so they're listed on the Texas DMV website. BoltBus alone comprises 103 coaches.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but I think in news releases, Greyhound should just say every single bus in the Greyhound US and Canada fleet combined. Do they seriously want to split off BoltBus badly enough that they won't even include their buses as their own?

As far as the G4500 goes, the MCI salesman reportedly said, literally, "Buyer beware, Floyd from Greyhound designed it!"

Also, mechanics say the G4500 jig at Sahagun had a major error, the tag axle was misaligned 4 degrees! True or now, I don't know, but that would explain the G4500 fires (due to friction) and breakdowns, plus that one time the tag axle fell off south of Portland. OTOH, that would also mean better reliability if Greyhound pulled off the axle and replaced it.

Guess what? I found a G4500 for sale: http://www.shopbuses.com/listings/2002-mci-g4500-ch734132. It's a 2002 selling for $87,000 and it's got 710,206 miles on it. What's really shocking, is that if you look at the second photo, taken from the front, one of the beacon lights have been punched out! And there's no wheelchair lift, so probably not an ex-Greyhound. Yeah, BUYER BEWARE!

Edit: Oh guess what? Sacramento-Portland sold out again. Everything tonight and tomorrow morning. Next available 7:00 PM tomorrow, for $109 high fare! Yeah, even if it closes online before selling out, the walk-up will fill up the rest! Next SAC-PUT low bucket: Sept. 3rd! Yeah Greyhound, you need faster service and another run.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, but I think in news releases, Greyhound should just say every single bus in the Greyhound US and Canada fleet combined. Do they seriously want to split off BoltBus badly enough that they won't even include their buses as their own?


I don't see it that way.But BoltBus has a "captive" fleet that's not really a part of Greyhound's fleet. So it makes since that greyhound wouldn't include that in a figure.

Also, I don't think the Greyhound Canada buses are in that number.


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## Swadian Hardcore

But why not? You have the buses, you might as well tell people you have them, makes you look bigger and look more like the New Greyhound. Yeah, they could just not include GLC, not include Bolt, not include all that, but what good would it do?

By the way, you've never ridden a G4500, but you've ridden J4500, right? The J4500 has the same interior, basically. So now you know what the G4500 interior is like. Hey, the rebuilt G4500 is great, and the restyled J4500 has been known for major improvements, so maybe Greyhound would order it. Northeast buses take lots of corrosion, but the J is fiberglass, so the corrosion problem is pretty much zero. The curb appeal could help against the myriad of competitors in that region: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/38197-peter-pan-bus-lines-2013-mci-j4500-762/.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But why not? You have the buses, you might as well tell people you have them, makes you look bigger and look more like the New Greyhound. Yeah, they could just not include GLC, not include Bolt, not include all that, but what good would it do?


I think that's exactly what they ARE doing.I still think a fleet numbering around 1,300 is really impressive.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> By the way, you've never ridden a G4500, but you've ridden J4500, right? The J4500 has the same interior, basically. So now you know what the G4500 interior is like. Hey, the rebuilt G4500 is great, and the restyled J4500 has been known for major improvements, so maybe Greyhound would order it. Northeast buses take lots of corrosion, but the J is fiberglass, so the corrosion problem is pretty much zero. The curb appeal could help against the myriad of competitors in that region: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/38197-peter-pan-bus-lines-2013-mci-j4500-762/.


Never been on a G4500 (although I was kind of hoping for a rebuilt one for my trip to Portland) but I have been on quite a few J4500's over the years, and I have never been that impressed with it.
Also the livery on that Peter Pan bus is just awful.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, the J4500 did suck. But they redesigned the coach in 2012, replacing both the original J and E. Now even J-hater BZ-Guy likes the new J.

OTOH, I've ridden five J's, all the old kind, and two failed. So, I'm definitely not a big fan of the J. But then again, the best-seller for 10 years and running can't be that bad.

Yeah, the old G sucked. But it's been rebuilt and is far better now. Even the drivers say it's far better. Like, not even a comparison to the old G.


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## rickycourtney

So here's something that might interest you...

Greyhound recently updated its Facts And Figures page. According to the company... the Greyhound active fleet consists of about 1,200 active buses. As of March 2014, 85 percent of Greyhound’s fleet is new or refurbished.

Here's how they say the fleet breaks down "as of May 2014":

MCI D4505 - 188

Prevost X3-45 - 280

MCI G4500 - 175

MCI 102DL3 - 469 (nearly 75% equipped with wheel-chair lifts)

That's 1,112 buses.

But according to the July Washington Post article Greyhound has 1,229 buses in the fleet. I'm inclined to trust that number more.

Here were the numbers "as of March 31, 2013":

MCI D4505 - 184

Prevost X3-45 - 310

MCI G4500 - 291

MCI 102DL3 - 769 (nearly 75% equipped with wheel-chair lifts)


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## railiner

Once again, I'm showing my age....but 1,300 in the fleet to me, is but a very thin shadow of what they had when I worked there...

Back in 1973, Greyhound Lines had almost 6,000, GLC had another 300 or so, and that is not even counting all the GL owned or partially owned, subsidiaries of the time, like Vermont Transit, TNM&O, NMT, Gray Line of NY, Walter's Transit, Carey Transportation, Brewster Transport, California Parlor Car Tours, SKGL, etc.

And during that time, Continental Trailways, which Greyhound acquired in 1987 owned 2,300 by itself. The other, idependent members of the National Trailways Bus System, such as Carolina, Martz, Adirondack, Pacific, Capitol,Tamiami, etc. owned another 700 or so....

Of course, there was no Megabus or other cut-rate operators in that regulated era.....


----------



## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> Once again, I'm showing my age....but 1,300 in the fleet to me, is but a very thin shadow of what they had when I worked there...
> 
> Back in 1973, Greyhound Lines had almost 6,000, GLC had another 300 or so, and that is not even counting all the GL owned or partially owned, subsidiaries of the time, like Vermont Transit, TNM&O, NMT, Gray Line of NY, Walter's Transit, Carey Transportation, Brewster Transport, California Parlor Car Tours, SKGL, etc.
> 
> And during that time, Continental Trailways, which Greyhound acquired in 1987 owned 2,300 by itself. The other, idependent members of the National Trailways Bus System, such as Carolina, Martz, Adirondack, Pacific, Capitol,Tamiami, etc. owned another 700 or so....
> 
> Of course, there was no Megabus or other cut-rate operators in that regulated era.....


It was strange seeing those photos of Eagles in Greyhound's fleet. Hell what am I saying, I saw Eagles in Greyhound paint scheme with my own eyes around here.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, they had 769 DL3's with 75% lift-equipped, then now they have only 469, with 75% lift-equipped? That does not make sense to me, because none of the lift-equipped DL3's would've been retired or sold, since they were all rebuilt. Did they f-up with a typo? Maybe it's still "769".

280 X3-45's, again, I doubt that. They have 86000-86298 and more coming for the 86600's starting 86650. CPTDB wrongfully reported starting 86600. That's more than 300 units, not merely 280.

175 G4500's would mean they scrapped over 100 G4500's in a year. Unless they managed to sell them. Again, unlikely. Perhaps only 175 rebuilds were included. But did they really rebuild the G's that fast?

188 sounds right for the D4505's.

Yeah, all this is just not adding up.


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## rickycourtney

MCI D4505 - 188 (This might be too low. CPTDB has this as 236, which might be accurate. Greyhound has announced a total purchase of 261 in the trades, including some buses for BoltBus)
Prevost X3-45 - 280 (This is too low. CPTDB has this as 360, which seems accurate. Greyhound has announced a total purchase of 395 in the trades, including some buses for BoltBus)
MCI G4500 - 175 (I think this is accurate)
MCI 102DL3 - 469 (I think this is accurate, but not the part about 75% equipped with wheel-chair lifts)

In case you're curious... here's the BoltBus fleet:
0800-0832 2008 Prevost X3-45
0833-0870 2009 Prevost X3-45
86344 2010 MCI D4505
0871-0885 2011 MCI D4505
0886-0901 2013 MCI D4505


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, if there are 469 DL3's in Greyhound's fleet, they have to all be total rebuilds, because Greyhound #6977 was spotted carrying a banner saying "500 UNITS REBUILT - REVITALIZING AN AMERICAN ICON - GREYHOUND LINES - ABC COMPANIES". That was photographed in January 2013. Let's see, 469, plus 140 transfers to Canada, plus 40-ish from GLC's original fleet (the VIP units) and you have about 650. That is in-line with a Greyhound employee that said "650 were rebuilt, the rest are being merely refurbished".

I guess the charter units are not included or something. Or maybe there are only very few charter units. Or maybe they are selling the rest, since there are tons of DL3's for sale right now, and some of them could be ex-Greyhound. I really don't know.

Or of course, one could do an electronic count of the Greyhound roster for everything starting "1M8P" which is the DL3 VIN prefix.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I used this close-up shot to find out the seats in Greyhound's blue H3-45 #6670: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12167320375/sizes/k/.

They appear to be either American 2000 or American 2004. Unfortunately, neither appear to comfortable. They appear to be intentionally narrow and don't seem to have much padding. I'm really disappointed in the offerings of American Seating, other than the 2005.

American 2000: http://www.americanseating.com/transportation/products/transportation-2000-recliner.

American 2004: http://www.americanseating.com/transportation/products/transportation-2004-recliner.

I really don't know why so many H3-45's have narrow seating while so many 102EL3's have National 4210S, the best seating offered by National: http://www.cvgrp.com/en-us/products_processes/Pages/NS4210SB10-MotorCoachRecliner.aspx.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> In case you're curious... here's the BoltBus fleet:
> 
> 0800-0832 2008 Prevost X3-45
> 
> 0833-0870 2009 Prevost X3-45
> 
> 86344 2010 MCI D4505
> 
> 0871-0885 2011 MCI D4505
> 
> 0886-0901 2013 MCI D4505



Some notes regarding the fleet dedicated to the Bolt service:

0871-0885 are NOT owned by Greyhound Lines, Inc - they are owned by Peter Pan under a permanent lease to Greyhound with the stipulation that they must be used in Greyhound service.

0838 and 0883 are no longer part of the fleet - fires destroyed both buses.

0886 - owned by MCI Sales & Service under warranty to Greyhound Lines, Inc to replace 0883 which was burnt to a crisp on the NY/CT border in 2012.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's troubling, first time I've heard a X3-45 catching on fire, and yet another D4505 catching on fire. Greyhound #86379 and #86381 both burned. #86379 was still sitting at Denver Garage when I visited a few weeks ago, the rear half was burnt to a crisp and the front half was cannibalized for parts, the body was heavily-tagged, just a sorry sight, I have photographed it back in January 2013: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13297870285/in/photolist-ox6TEY-mg64xB.


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## rickycourtney

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Some notes regarding the fleet dedicated to the Bolt service:
> 
> 0871-0885 are NOT owned by Greyhound Lines, Inc - they are owned by Peter Pan under a permanent lease to Greyhound with the stipulation that they must be used in Greyhound service.
> 
> 0838 and 0883 are no longer part of the fleet - fires destroyed both buses.
> 
> 0886 - owned by MCI Sales & Service under warranty to Greyhound Lines, Inc to replace 0883 which was burnt to a crisp on the NY/CT border in 2012.


But other than that are those numbers right?
Also how does the "under warranty" part work? Will Greyhound eventually have to give it back to MCI?


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## rickycourtney

Sound Transit's D4500CL coaches have American Seating model 2095 seats. They're reasonably comfortable (I would prefer more padding) especially when compared to the awful Premier and Premier LS.

Ironically Sound Transit's New Flyer DE60LFR coaches aren't as well suited for suburban routes, but they're equipped with the much very comfortable Amaya Patriot seat.

PS: I get the impression that Sound Transit just buys seats from whichever company makes the lowest bid.


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## Green Maned Lion

Why do these bus companies keep buying these fire prone Prevost and MCI busses? They should buy a good bus like the Setra TopClass.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why do these bus companies keep buying these fire prone Prevost and MCI busses? They should buy a good bus like the Setra TopClass.


Right. Because nothing bad can ever happen to a Daimler built product?


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## rickycourtney

But I will give credit where credit is due... Setra builds their own seats and they offer an amazing array of options.

Check out the brochure.

Every one of those seats looks worlds more comfortable than the crap Greyhound is buying.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but Van Hool make their own seating and it's barely better than Premier LS. The Van Hool seat is like American 2095 but narrower. American 2003 has got to be the worst.

I'm sure Amaya Torino VIP is still the best of the best, since show coaches usually have that, or Torino G Plus. Torino VIP has been around since at least 1991 and is still selling in Canada.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I used this close-up shot to find out the seats in Greyhound's blue H3-45 #6670: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12167320375/sizes/k/.
> 
> They appear to be either American 2000 or American 2004. Unfortunately, neither appear to comfortable. They appear to be intentionally narrow and don't seem to have much padding. I'm really disappointed in the offerings of American Seating, other than the 2005.
> 
> American 2000: http://www.americanseating.com/transportation/products/transportation-2000-recliner.
> 
> American 2004: http://www.americanseating.com/transportation/products/transportation-2004-recliner.
> 
> I really don't know why so many H3-45's have narrow seating while so many 102EL3's have National 4210S, the best seating offered by National: http://www.cvgrp.com/en-us/products_processes/Pages/NS4210SB10-MotorCoachRecliner.aspx.


Thanks for those links....in looking thru National's products, it appears that the model we have in our pre-2009 H's, are the model 4210A.....I find them more comfortable than any seat that has come in any of our later model's....despite the narrower tops....


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do these bus companies keep buying these fire prone Prevost and MCI busses? They should buy a good bus like the Setra TopClass.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Because nothing bad can ever happen to a Daimler built product?
Click to expand...

Ouch!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for those links....in looking thru National's products, it appears that the model we have in our pre-2009 H's, are the model 4210A.....I find them more comfortable than any seat that has come in any of our later model's....despite the narrower tops....
Click to expand...

4210A or 4210S? There's also the 4209 which I've found nothing on. I know the 4210S shot shows winged headrests, but they also have rounded headrests.

Edit: Guess what? I've uploaded my first bus video to YouTube. Just 5:21 long, so please check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfXEpnQOaU0.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, but Van Hool make their own seating and it's barely better than Premier LS. The Van Hool seat is like American 2095 but narrower. American 2003 has got to be the worst.
> 
> I'm sure Amaya Torino VIP is still the best of the best, since show coaches usually have that, or Torino G Plus. Torino VIP has been around since at least 1991 and is still selling in Canada.


I have to disagree. For all of Van Hool's problems... seats aren't one of them. Amaya's A2-TEN and Torino seats are better... but Van Hool's "body line" seats are very comfortable for what I assume is a cheaper seat. It's worlds better than the horrible Premier LS seats Greyhound uses (and without the need for a pillow).

I don't think you gave Setra's seats a fair shake.

The Voyage Plus seats look great IMHO and I'm impressed by how customizable they are. You have several options for armrests, tray tables, footrests, Amtrak style legrests and you can even order them with individual TV's (something I suggest Greyhound avoid).


----------



## railiner

The Van Hool proprietary seats, are defintely better than those Premier's.... Besides being ergonomically more comfortable to sit in, they have more 'shin clearance' to slide your legs under.....

And due to the Van Hools design advantage over the MCI and Prevost, can offer more leg room with the same amount of seat rows, account of using the space clear to the very back of the coach.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for those links....in looking thru National's products, it appears that the model we have in our pre-2009 H's, are the model 4210A.....I find them more comfortable than any seat that has come in any of our later model's....despite the narrower tops....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 4210A or 4210S? There's also the 4209 which I've found nothing on. I know the 4210S shot shows winged headrests, but they also have rounded headrests.
> 
> Edit: Guess what? I've uploaded my first bus video to YouTube. Just 5:21 long, so please check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfXEpnQOaU0.
Click to expand...

Our's do not have seatbelts... those came with the miserable Premier's in our 2009 model's....

*

The video is okay, but I would have liked a bit of scanning to show the interior of the coach, along with a shot thru the windshield....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

That S-Class is a works self driving prototype.

And pray tell, what the heck is a sight that calls itself heavy cherry? I am so not interested in finding out on my own.


----------



## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> That S-Class is a works self driving prototype.


Cause it has cruise control that can steer and keep a constant distance? That's neat. My mom's Prius can do the same thing for half as much money (and that doesn't include the lower fuel and maintenance costs).


Green Maned Lion said:


> And pray tell, what the heck is a sight that calls itself heavy cherry? I am so not interested in finding out on my own.


No clue. Used google image search to find them. Went back and looked. Seems like an auto trader for heavy vehicles and machinery.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The Prius is NOT capable of full autonomy; I.e. Enter the car, program a destination, sit back and relax. That S-class is. Toyota has not been working on anything beyond self-park and the fairly standard distance cruise control.

But then, very few people appreciate that basically every Toyota "innovation" has either been a gimmick, or an implementation of an older idea. Toyota has never sent a technologically innovative product to this country, save for the insanely flawed and almost laughable first generation Prius.

In fact, they are worse run, as a company, then GM ever was. Scions crash and burn after it's initial success is an illustrative example of that. Lexus's inability to actually tap the sports sedan and luxury sedan markets long term is also a laughable and illustrative example.

Toyota exemplifies all of the stupidly thought out arrogance that caused Japan's economy to crash and burn.


----------



## rickycourtney

The retail version S class is not equipped for full autonomy. Mercedes may have shown that it's possible with a prototype version of the S class. But Google has shown that it's possible with a prototype based on the Prius.

The S class does come with a cruise control system that uses cameras and radar. Same as the Prius. My point: it's not exactly exotic technology anymore.

Although in defense of the S class it does have a nifty air freshener system for those Mercedes owners who are too good to use a little tree. Of course a little tree costs 75¢ while the Mercedes air freshener refill costs $75.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Actually the retail S-Class is capable of autonomously following the car in front of it, both by speed and steering. It also has vastly superior active safety features, and isn't built by a company that willfully installed badly designed, highly dangerous cut price Takata airbags in their products.

But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps Van Hool seats aren't that bad, but when you've been sitting in Amayas they are really no comparison. And by the way, Torino VIP can be ordered with PTV's, just not in the catalog, need a special order. There was a J4500LX E4500LX on display with Torino VIP seats and PTV's.

Amaya Torino G: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AABVK8_021XshoQ3gHTqqs67a/10010-3986.jpg. 

Amaya Torino VIP with PTV: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AAD_9ZnU4lyi6ZVsOnucId7ua/MCI%C2%AE%20E4500%20LX%20SeatBack%20with%20Tray%20and%20Video.jpg. 

I doubt Amaya would be that expensive because they are made in Mexico, where costs are lower than the US, Belgium, or Germany. I'm sure National Seating 4210's aren't bad at all, but I'm not sure how they compare to Van Hool and Setra seating. Greyhound doesn't use National anymore and the American Seating always seems to be the most overpriced for their comfort. Besides, Torino G is also a "containment" seat.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The video, I couldn't really scan around, because I had a seatmate that ride, and I was not at the front so I could not shot out the windshield. Those Premier LS are too tall to see over the tops.

That ride was actually pretty horrible. It was a D4505 with sagging Premier LS. And yes, it was actually sagging, as in the center of the bottom dipped down into a truly miserable position.


----------



## railiner

I have a 2010 Prius model 5, with the Advanced Technology Package. It's sticker price is probably less than a third of what a new S-Class costs. Of course, the cars are in completely different classes, and I will admit that the new S Class is my ultimate 'dream car. That said, my Prius does have a very nice suite of technology for a car in its price range...including radar based active cruise control, collision prevention, camera guided lane keep assist, as well as camera and ultrasound self parking, navigation system that is both GPS based, and backup INS based while satellite signal is temporarily lost (as in a long tunnel)... Between the nav system, the radar, the camera's, the servo steering, the satellite radio receiver, and the Safe T Link cellular com....all that hardware should be sufficient to make the car capable of fully automated or remote guided operation.

All that is needed would be the appropriate software programming to make it possible.


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually the retail S-Class is capable of autonomously following the car in front of it, both by speed and steering. It also has vastly superior active safety features, and isn't built by a company that willfully installed badly designed, highly dangerous cut price Takata airbags in their products.
> 
> But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.


I took a ride over to Rallye Motors, one of the largest Mercedes dealership's on Long Island....sat and gawked at a new S550 4Matic with the Executive Plus rear seating....awesome! Had to drag myself out of it. I took home a brochure on the 2015 model's. What a fantastic lineup....

Someday.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Something bad happened.....again: http://abc7.com/traffic/greyhound-bus-catches-fire-on-i-5-south/254149/.

Greyhound Lines 2010 MCI D4505 #86337 driving southbound on Interstate 5 towards Los Angeles caught on fire from the engine and burned up. The bus was powered by a Detroit Diesel 60-H EGR, which is by far the worst Detroit 60. Two of its sisters have already burned, #86379 and #86381, both also powered with the same Detroit 60-H EGR.

Mechanics say the EGR ruined the Detroit 60 and made it a pain in the behind. For example, older rebuilt DL3's powered with the 60-r or 60-P have never caught on fire. Before the rebuilds, some DL3's did burn, but by that time they had run for years with deferred maintenance. OTOH, Greyhound has greatly improved maintenance and LAD is known for having good maintenance. But #86337 burned anyway.

The unit could have been operating one of four schedules, Sked 6813 SAC-LAD, Sked 1439 PUT-LAD, Sked 6743 SFD-LAD, or Sked 6749 SFD-LAD. All could've passed that location around 5:30 AM. I believe it was Sked 6813 due to the low amount of passengers aboard, only 15. The others would all be Express or Limited service, which is usually far more popular.


----------



## railiner

Fortunately no one was hurt. It happened on the 12th, and wasn't newsworthy enough to make the national news, fortunately....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

It is indeed nice to know that none of these three D4505 fires resulted in serious injuries. Imagine if this was on national news. There goes Greyhound's reputation again.

That D4505 is totally destroyed. There goes a $500,000 bus, but I'm sure insurance will make it up.

Let's see, at least 3 out of Greyhound's 107 D4505's in that batch have been destroyed by fire, and they're only been in service 4 years. At this linear rate, 20 years of service later, 2030, and at least 15 would burn, not counting age which might cause even more burnings.


----------



## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.


I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.

That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14755708739/.

A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Mechanics say the EGR ruined the Detroit 60 and made it a pain in the behind. For example, older rebuilt DL3's powered with the 60-r or 60-P have never caught on fire. Before the rebuilds, some DL3's did burn, but by that time they had run for years with deferred maintenance. OTOH, Greyhound has greatly improved maintenance and LAD is known for having good maintenance. But #86337 burned anyway.


The EGR systems do generate a lot of heat... so they can be very dangerous if something flammable comes into contact with it. It's easier with a truck, you have more room around the engine. Engine compartments on buses are very small spaces.But be that as it may, due to emissions standards, the EGR systems aren't going away.



railiner said:


> Fortunately no one was hurt. It happened on the 12th, and wasn't newsworthy enough to make the national news, fortunately....


I didn't even see the story on the newswires up here in Seattle. There were no injures, few passengers on board and bus fires are relatively common... so it's not really newsworthy outside of California.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I guess it's not really newsworthy even outside the bus discussions, but this does mean one less D4505 in Greyhound's fleet. And there were two read-end accidents recently. In both cases, tractor-trailers read-ended Greyhound units on the Interstate. The first one was a D4505 on I-40 in northern Texas. The second one was a 102DL3 (#6507) on I-10 in the Florida Panhandle. Both units took minor damage to the engine hatches, etc.

In the second case, the replacement coach was #FL86501, a D4505 owned by Florida and a gap in Greyhound's roster.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.

The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.

But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

rickycourtney said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.
> 
> 
> 
> I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
> I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.
> 
> That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.
Click to expand...

Nor do I. And if you want to argue against, say, the Toyota Century, which is what Toyota offers in that price class and doesn't even offer adaptive cruise control, we can discuss $115k cars.

But since Mercedes closest competitor is the GLK250 BlueTec, and the forthcoming GLA250 Bluetec, which should undercut a comparably equipped Prius V while returning better fuel economy and running on good fuel rather than bad fuel... *shrugs*

I've never understood the assertion that Mercedes are expensive. I started buying them, and still do, because I think they offer the best value on the market.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14755708739/.
> 
> A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.


Nice shot!

What'd you do, ask them to 'stage' them that way for you?


----------



## railiner

Green Maned Lion said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> But then, I'm certain you've never owned, and have probably never even driven, an S-Class, or likely any Mercedes sedan of any era. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you had.
> 
> 
> 
> I have driven a Mercedes C-Class sedan a number of times. Its a very nice car. I'm not arguing that point.
> I also got the chance to sit in the back of a 2015 S-Class with the Executive Rear Seat Package. I quite enjoyed the hot stone massage.
> 
> That being said, I have no plans to ever purchase a $115,000 car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor do I. And if you want to argue against, say, the Toyota Century, which is what Toyota offers in that price class and doesn't even offer adaptive cruise control, we can discuss $115k cars.
> 
> But since Mercedes closest competitor is the GLK250 BlueTec, and the forthcoming GLA250 Bluetec, which should undercut a comparably equipped Prius V while returning better fuel economy and running on good fuel rather than bad fuel... *shrugs*
> 
> I've never understood the assertion that Mercedes are expensive. I started buying them, and still do, because I think they offer the best value on the market.
Click to expand...

Where in North America, have you ever seen a Toyota Century? Those rolling timewarps look like they are stuck in 1966. I bet if they sold them over here, at a reduced price, they'd be a big hit in places like Broward County, Florida..... 

Perhaps Toyota should make a cheapened LS460L, and revive the Cressida name for that market...


----------



## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.
> 
> The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.
> 
> But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.


For the record, I don't think it was EGR that caused the problem but rather its companion device, the diesel particulate filter. During regeneration cycles the DPF heats up to above 600 degrees to burn off the accumulated particulate. I would imagine doing this in a small confined space is inherently risky, especially if it's not maintained properly.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw this at Denver: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14755708739/.
> 
> A Greyhound D4505, J4500, and G4500 in a row. Yes, a second-hand J4500 from Coach America.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice shot!What'd you do, ask them to 'stage' them that way for you?
Click to expand...

Naw, it was just like that when I got there.



rickycourtney said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it's fascinating. EGR is the simplest and oldest emissions trick in the book. Almost every car made in the past 40 years for sale in the US market have it. I have never heard of it causing fires.
> 
> The Detroit 60 EGR was installed in thousands of conventional trucks, including cement mixers with rear mounted engines. It is not known for fires.
> 
> But stick it in the engine bay of an MCI bus, maintain it by the Mickey Mouse wieners that pass for Greyhound mechanics, and they burn. Some how, Mr. Wilbur, I don't think the problem is the engine.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, I don't think it was EGR that caused the problem but rather its companion device, the diesel particulate filter. During regeneration cycles the DPF heats up to above 600 degrees to burn off the accumulated particulate. I would imagine doing this in a small confined space is inherently risky, especially if it's not maintained properly.
Click to expand...

I don't really know what's exactly going on, but all of Greyhound's recent fires have involved D4505 or G4500 units. The G4500 burns 'cause of designs flaws and construction flaws. The D4505, I don't understand why it burns so much, when the 102DL3 has never burned after rebuilds. Since the mechanics I have contact with, who are NOT "Mickey Mouse wieners", say that the EGR is the "worst idea for combating emissions", and indeed, three Greyhounds from the same batch, with the same EGR, burned up by accident, what am I going to say?

I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR. Look, I'd rather have a bit more emissions, than to use more fuel, have more fires, and have more breakdowns. Yes, both truck and bus drivers have said the Detroit 60 EGR is a "fuel guzzler". And the old 60-R or 60-P did have much lower emissions than the two-stroke engines anyway.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR.


I'm sure companies would love to do that, but it's not their choice. The EPA required DPF and EGR systems starting in 2007.
As a matter of fact, ULSD became the standard because EPA 2007 compliant vehicles can't use anything else.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand why companies don't just burn ULSD with no DPF or EGR.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure companies would love to do that, but it's not their choice. The EPA required DPF and EGR systems starting in 2007.
> As a matter of fact, ULSD became the standard because EPA 2007 compliant vehicles can't use anything else.
Click to expand...

What about SCR? That going to do it better?


----------



## rickycourtney

SCR was required by the EPA 2010 regulations in addition to EGR and DPF.

The EPA seems to be much more concerned about the environmental impacts of emissions than the environmental impacts of increased fuel consumption.

I think that in the long term engine manufacturers will pressured by customers to find ways to decrease fuel consumption. They are already making progress. The first EPA 2007 compliant engines were notorious fuel guzzlers, but newer engines are much better.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Cummins ISX12 still guzzles fuel but Volvo D13 is a lot better. Hopefully so is the Detroit 13.

The 102DL3 was advertised for 330 pmpg, while the D4505 is advertised for only 240 pmpg. Similarly for the J4500. Backed up by Altoona testing.

I cannot understand why the EPA is paranoid about reducing emissions at the expense of fuel efficiency, reliability, and safety. Burned-up D4505's, I'm looking at you.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

EGR is a terrible way to combat emissions, as are burn off style DPFs because they don't actually reduce carbon particulate emissions. It's a testing trick. However they don't cause fires in the kind of numbers that happens on busses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Here's a D4505 engine photo for those that want to see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14562122042/. That is not the same batch that keeps catching on fire, this batch has Cummins ISX12 instead of Detroit 60-H EGR.

So if EGR is ineffective at combating anything other than Nitrogen Oxide, why even install it, let along require it? Is it not possible to burn down ULSD in the engine cylinders until it becomes almost completely Carbon Dioxide and water?

So is SCR going to lower the carbon particulates?

Or why don't we just get rid of EGR, DPF, and SCR, just run an old 60-R in a DL3? Even with no fires, this fuel consumption and unreliability isn't going to help anyone, and it's not just affecting Greyhound.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

SCR greatly reduces oxides of Nitrogen. DPF reduces testable measurements by holding on to particulates and then releasing them later as smaller particles (same weight) after the test is completed. EGR reduces pollutant concentration by mixing the exhaust with fresh air- and expelling a much larger volume of air through the pipe as a result.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So, GML, by your account, EGR is useless? So EGR just mixes pollutants with air but doesn't do anything else?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here's a D4505 engine photo for those that want to see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14562122042/. That is not the same batch that keeps catching on fire, this batch has Cummins ISX12 instead of Detroit 60-H EGR.


Yup, like I said, a very cramped space.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> So if EGR is ineffective at combating anything other than Nitrogen Oxide, why even install it, let along require it?


Because NOx is a particularly nasty atmospheric pollutant.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> So is SCR going to lower the carbon particulates?


No. SCR reduces NOx.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Or why don't we just get rid of EGR, DPF, and SCR, just run an old 60-R in a DL3? Even with no fires, this fuel consumption and unreliability isn't going to help anyone, and it's not just affecting Greyhound.


Again, because the EPA is trying to reduce NOx emissions.Fuel consumption has been improving as engine manufacturers improve the technology.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Then Greyhound is going to have to re-engine everything with Detroit 13 and Volvo D13? Bye-bye Cummins.

Anyways, the Greyhound driver I talked with in Colorado said that he thinks Greyhound will order units again soon. He says they order new buses every year.

According to Greyhound's System Timetable, the extra Denver skeds over the summer were only seasonal, and will lose some frequencies effective August 20th, 2014. Right before the kids go back to school. There were indeed tons of kids on the Denvers skeds this summer. Maybe they will have more service for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, and the winter ski season.

Greyhound also cut service in the PNW again, reverting to the old 3x daily on PUT-SEA-VAN, with weekend extras. This might be seasonal or it might just be because Greyhound hasn't recovered from the G4500 debacle yet. As of August 20th, 2014, all PUT-SEA-VAC runs will be through from LAD, though two southbound runs are officially starting in SEA. Also, the LAD-SEA skeds 1446 and 1439 are now backed up to PUT.

This is really weird, seems like Greyhound is selling through tickets Los Angeles to Vancouver, but actually operating independent units north Seattle for customs reasons? Maybe the H3-45's are Blue G's, while the D4505's take over south of Seattle or maybe Portland.


----------



## railiner

Yes...Greyhound is basing their early seasonal adjustments based on recent historical ridership patterns. I would have preferred to keep the summer seasonal runs intact until the Wednesday after Labor Day, which was their traditional end of summer service, with a few further reductions at the end of September.

As a result of this early reduction, we can look forward to having to run multiple sections of the remaining trips for a few weeks, until the kids are all back in school. Here in NYC, that comes later than most places...after Labor Day.


----------



## rickycourtney

I'm not an engine guy... but I know that King County Metro was forced to purchase Caterpillar engines for a couple of years. They turned out to be gas guzzlers. Everything else in the fleet is Cummins and seems to run really well.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Caterpillar failed hard in MCI's too. GLC had a few 1997 DL3's with Caterpillar C10's that were forced into early retirement in 2011 with the exception of #1003. They also had some Caterpillar 3196B-powered C3's built 1989 and 1991 that were apparently retired in 2009, seems to have done better than the C10 but the C10 was supposed to be better than the 3176B. I don't get it either.

NJT has D4500's with Caterpillar C13 ACERT that were tested to get 6.13 mpg, better than the 5.83 with Cummins ISX12 but worse than the 6.79 with Detroit 60-R. But Cummins seems to do well in transits. Perhaps they are better at lower speeds. Or maybe the ISL9 is better than the ISX12, truckers have the ISX15, don't know how well that does, not sure about ISM10.8. I really can't get all these Cummins engines straight.

I wonder when the kids go back to school in Denver, but yeah, there were lots of kids on Greyhound out of Denver, not meaning college kids, but grade school kids.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I had a CAT 3126 in my GMC T6500. I had nothing but trouble, and primarily with the parts that were unique to CAT engines (like the HEUI system, I pronounced it hooey because that's what it is). It was my first experience with motorized vehicles that don't simply run when you maintain them properly.


----------



## railiner

We had CAT's in some of our 102D3's. Hated them....they had some peculiar throttle (believe it was air operated, possibly), that was kind of like a binary system....that is, it was either "on", or "off".....very difficult to smoothly modulate speed. It gave passenger's a rough ride, as you would step on it if your speed slackened, and then release the pedal once you achieved your desired speed. With the Detroit powered coaches, you could precisely control the engine speed with minute adjustments of the pedal....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like Greyhound Canada made the stupid mistake of ordering 102C3's with Detroit 8V92TA's then replacing them early with Caterpillar 3176B's. I have no idea why they even lasted to 2010 but probably because the had been re-engine. By the way, those units appreently had Fuller T-11607D manual transmissions.

GLC also had some H3-45's that apparently looked really weird in the old livery. From Barraclou, #1011: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1011_2.jpg. #994: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound_canada994_2.jpg. #1257 ex-Voyageur in EE Quicklink: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/vcl1257.jpg. From Peter McLoughlin, ex-Voyageur #1254: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/h345/1999h345/1254left.jpg.

Will Greyhound ever order H3-45's again? High luggage capacity and reliability is the best of the fiberglass buses.


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## railiner

Hmmm....only could get the first link to show (1011).....

I remember when some GLC H3-45's would come to us on the pool run. IIRC, they had at least one, I believe numbered in the high 900 series (994?), that had a seven speed stick transmission.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh, don't know why the links aren't working. See if this works: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/h345/index.htm.

And this one? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/vcl1257.jpg.

Interesting to see a H3-45 being used for QuickLink commuter service. That is an ex-Voyageur lift-equipped. Don't understand why it's being used for commuter service, huge cargo hold turned to waste.

Something interesting about the H3-45, it has a 470 cubic feet cargo hold without a lift, but with a lift, drops down to 440 cubic feet. Plus overhead parcel racks, at 117 cubic feet, and you have 587 and 557 cubic feet respectively. How the heck does the J4500 have 573 cubic feet total? And doesn't lose any to the lift due to having a rear lift.

Now I see why people order the J4500 so much. Does have only 183 gallons fuel compared to 230 in the H3-45. I don't see how that would allow the fuel capacity though.

BTW, H3-41 turns amazing, 40.6 feet turning circle without IFS. Wheelbase comparable to a 102D3 which turns at 44 feet.


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## Green Maned Lion

Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.


 Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.

If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.

Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.

Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?

Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Interesting to see a H3-45 being used for QuickLink commuter service. That is an ex-Voyageur lift-equipped. Don't understand why it's being used for commuter service, huge cargo hold turned to waste.


Maybe they want to give commuters a "better" experience?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Something interesting about the H3-45, it has a 470 cubic feet cargo hold without a lift, but with a lift, drops down to 440 cubic feet. Plus overhead parcel racks, at 117 cubic feet, and you have 587 and 557 cubic feet respectively. How the heck does the J4500 have 573 cubic feet total? And doesn't lose any to the lift due to having a rear lift.


How important is cargo capacity to Greyhound in the US? I know up in Canada GPX is huge business for them, to the point where buses tow pup trailers, but it seems like nothing more than a niche in the US. I have only ever seen a few GPX boxes loaded onto buses here in Seattle.
I mean the H3-45 is a REALLY nice bus with a huge cargo capacity... but it's also more expensive than an X3-45. Why should Greyhound US spend that extra money?


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's why there's a Jake Brake and/or retarder. Jake Brake gears down the engine for a smooth stop. The driver told me both fulfill the same function.

That luggage capacity on the H3-45 could be useful not for GPX, but for passengers. I don't really know why a regular H3-45 would be that expensive, more than a X3-45 yes, but has the same passenger cabin and the same dashboard, just fiberglass construction and more luggage capacity. The H3-45's luggage capacity would be very useful for passengers, not GPX, because in high season Greyhound's X3-45's often top out on luggage before topping out on people.

Now I've realized a lot of Prevost coaches are really old-fashioned, the X3-45 looks modern but not that different from an old XL-45 and the X3-45 looks like a bus from the 1960s even though they were built in the 1990s. See: http://www.inter-bus.ca/auger711.jpg.

Also, the H3-45's original dashboard was very square-looking: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bourgeois/bourgeois03050_driver.jpg.


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## Green Maned Lion

rickycourtney said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.
> 
> If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.
> 
> Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.
> 
> Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?
> 
> Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).
Click to expand...

If I don't get back to you tonight, remind me. There are several flaws with your logic.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Woah, just use the Jake man.

Anyway, I don't understand the "bells and whistles" difference between standard coaches. For example, standard X3-45 vs H3-45:

Both have air-ride.

Both have TV monitors.

Both have the option for enclosed parcel racks.

Both have power blinds.

Both have lavatory with option for running water.

Both have individual consoles with reading lights and air vents.

Both have Aluminum Durabright wheels.

What is the difference?

Edit: typo.


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## rickycourtney

The passenger cabin on the H3-45 has nicer appointments than the X3-45. It's also got a nicer exterior design.

But that being said the H3-45 seems to be more popular than the X3-45.

I just don't think Greyhound US cares about cargo capacity like Greyhound Canada does.

EDIT: finishing my thought.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Automatic transmissions on busses should be illegal. You lose too much braking power.
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal? You must still be drunk this morning.
> 
> If drivers are losing too much braking power, they can always reach over and press one button to manually downshift.
> 
> Plus there are different types of drive systems that can't use manual transmissions. Here in King County, where we have invested heavily in Hybrid Diesel Electric buses? To my knowledge the transmissions on parallel hybrids (the type also used by MCI) need to be automatic since they are also serving as a power split device. On the buses with series hybrid drives or all-electric drives (trolleybuses) there is no shifting involved since an electric motor is turning the wheels.
> 
> Would you just ban hybrid and electric buses?
> 
> Doesn't make a lot of since considering those buses with series hybrid drives and all-electric drives could decimate any conventionally powered bus or commercial truck on the market when it comes to driving up or down hills (where braking power is important).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I don't get back to you tonight, remind me. There are several flaws with your logic.
Click to expand...

While you're at it why don't you also break down the flaws in making a transmission type "illegal".
I support murder being illegal... I can't possibly fathom a reason why we would make automatic transmissions illegal.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Exterior design, OK, but nicer interior appointments? I don't see that.

X3-45 interior: http://api.drivingforce.ca/Images/Units/112504-PREVOST-X3-45-60932.JPG.

H3-45 interior: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/maheux/maheux9428_3.jpg.

Another H3-45 interior: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bellhorizon/bellhorizon1024_6.jpg.

The H3-45 probably costs more due to being taller and bigger, with more luggage capacity, but I really don't see other advantages. Dash is the same too.


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## Green Maned Lion

After just proving that the H3-45 indeed does have the nicer interior, the crowd scratches their head as to what Swadian intends to say next.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why is the H3-45 interior nicer? Same seats, same parcel racks, same TV's, same overhead consoles, same windows, same everything. OK, you can get a H3-45 with faux-wood flooring but you can also get a X3-45 with faux-wood flooring.


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## rickycourtney

Okay so some quick back of the napkin calculations here:

Greyhound allows 1 checked baggage with total exterior dimensions of 62 inches.

A very large rolling suitcase of those dimensions would be 31"x19"x12" or 4.1 cubic feet. If every passenger had a bag that big (they wouldn't) it would fill 209 cubic feet.

Even if every passenger carried a perfectly square box 20"x20"x20", 5.1 cubic feet it would still only fill 260 cubic feet.

The X3-45 has a 376 cubic foot underfloor compartment. So even under my nightmare scenario there would still be 30% left for GPX cargo and excess luggage. If the underfloor compartments are filling up (which they shouldn't be) Greyhound should actually make good on the threat to charge people for excess luggage.

For the record most "rollaboards" are about 22"x14"x9" or about 1.6 cubic feet. A full load of those is 80.2 cubic feet (21% of an X3's capacity).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's the problem, Railiner is a dispatcher and he says they are filling up and having to use seated space. It was sometime back on this thread. Maybe Greyhound is making do on their threats to charge extra, but passengers insist on bringing two bags per person.

Or Greyhound could order the H3-45 and allow everyone to carry two bags per person at no extra charge.

I don't know why they're filling up, but people say they are.

Two bags per person would be an advantage against competitors, everyone from Southwest Airlines, to Amtrak, to private autos, to Megabus, who's TD925 double-deckers have terrible luggage capacity.


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## rickycourtney

No they couldn't. With hundreds of X3-45 buses in the fleet... they couldn't just suddenly offer 2 bags free! Every bus would have to be retired first.

I think 1 bag + 1 personal item is a good policy. It's what most airlines offer.

You're wrong about southwest. They offer 1 carry on, 1 personal item AND 2 checked bags. It's by far the most generous policy in airline industry


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## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Two bags per person would be an advantage against competitors, everyone from Southwest Airlines, to Amtrak, to private autos, to Megabus, who's TD925 double-deckers have terrible luggage capacity.


...the only one that it would be an advantage against would be Megabus (which currently has the same policy as Greyhound for included luggage, but the only way to bring excess luggage is to buy another bag.) SWA has one personal item, one carry-on, and two checked bags at no additional charge. Amtrak has two carry-ons (which equate roughly to the size of checked luggage on the airlines,) unlimited "personal" items (small bags, laptop bag, briefcase, etc.,) and two checked bags at no additional charge. Automobiles have as much room as is in the vehicle, which is usually more than one bag (or even two bags) plus a personal item.


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## Swadian Hardcore

True, right now Greyhound offers 1 checked bag, 1 carry-on, and 1 personal item. Most airlines offer 0 checked bags, 1 carry-on, and 1 personal item.

OK, but what if Greyhound does the BoltBus and YO! Bus trick again? This time start a new brand with H3-45's, luxury amenities, and allow 2 checked bags per person? Interesting idea. They would probably have to order Torino G because that's the best seat on the market with a "containment" seatback. Or offer something like Vonlane. That might allow Greyhound to gain a "breakout" advantage from markets that are locked in a quagmire stalemate of ruinous competition.

Edit: You got it wrong, by "bags" I meant checked baggage, not carry-ons. Only checked baggage can be stored in the cargo hold, which is the distinctive different between the H3-45 and the X3-45.

Besides, Greyhound currently allows unlimited personal items anyway, AFAIK.


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## rickycourtney

Right but the overhead storage bins on all buses are rather useless. They are good for stashing a personal item like a backpack or a small duffle bag. They certainly aren't big enough to accommodate a "rollaboard" suitcase that most consider a carry on.

So that means most people need to check a bag on greyhound.


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## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Besides, Greyhound currently allows unlimited personal items anyway, AFAIK.


Not according to their website:



> One (1) piece of baggage is checked free of charge for adults and children. One (1) additional piece of baggage may be checked for a charge of $15 for adults only. Baggage carried beyond two (2) pieces will be charged based on Greyhound Package Express rates. One (1) small bag up to 25 pounds can be taken on board for each adult or child. Carry-on bags must fit in the overhead compartment or under your seat.


Compare that to Amtrak's carry-on policy (Greyhound appears to only have one policy page covering both carry-on and checked baggage, whereas Amtrak splits them up.)



> Each passenger may only bring a total of 2 carry-on items onboard the train; each item should not exceed 50 lbs. (23 kg) and 28 x 22 x 14 inches.
> 
> Due to limited available space onboard trains, please make arrangements to check your baggage if your trip requires the transport of baggage in excess of two pieces or in excess of carry-on size restrictions. For passenger’s safety and security, Amtrak reserves the right to deny transport or charge fees for items exceeding policy limitations.
> 
> *Personal Items*Small items needed for the duration of the trip may be carried on the train and will not count toward the carry-on baggage limit.
> 
> 
> Required medical devices and medication
> Pillows, blankets and outer garments
> Coolers, purses or small bags no larger than 12” x 12” x 12”
> Small electronic devices with protective cases


Try again.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Maybe so, but they don't enforce it anyway, as long as it doesn't block the aisle. Just like how they don't enforce the photography ban.

Yes, parcel racks on most buses are not good for anything other than a backpack, except for the MCI E/G/J series which has extra-large parcel racks that may be able to accommodate a larger bag.

I think Greyhound should try a BoltBus Deluxe now. Seems like Vonlane is doing bad, 'cause their runs tomorrow are not even a third booked yet. But BoltBus Deluxe would be different. It would use H3-45's and J4500's. It would have Torino G seating, with containment and custom-ordered seat covers, the hybrid kind with vinyl along the sides and cloth velour on the center. Seriously, custom seat covers can't be that expensive anyway. They would have something special though, personal televisions (PTV's), because we all know BoltBus tries to compete using electronic tech, now add PTV's and gain a massive advantage against everyone else except Delta. Of course it would have AVOD, in the form of Greyhound BLUE.

Then, the lavatories would have running water and flushing toilets. Would not be that expensive since Greyhound already has flushing toilets. Enclosed parcel racks. Driver call button. Remove THREE rows of seating for a ton of extra legroom. In fact, remove a fourth row at the very rear and make it into a snack bar/baggage area. On one side would be snacks, the other, non-alcoholic drinks. Under the bars, extra luggage storage, maybe with a locked cover that only the driver could open.

H and J both have massive cargo holds. Make use of them, two checked bags per person. Unlimited personal items. Probably only one carry-on but larger ones would be placed in the baggage area.

Let's see, H3-45 has 56 seating regular. Lose four rows total, down to 40 seating. Still only 20% less than the current Bolt X3-45. Would be very efficient use of space. Charge 50% extra fare over BoltBus regular, and people would still ride it. Portland to Seattle on Bolt runs $10-$15 most of the time. With this, $15-$22.5. People would flock on, and large profits could be made.

Thoughts?


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## jebr

Not a bad idea, but there'd be a few more considerations that make it more expensive per seat (and more complicated) than what first meets the eye.

First, I'm not sure what exactly the point of a driver call button would be, except in emergencies. The driver's focus needs to be on the road, not checking the wi-fi or AVOD system. You could hire a second person, but that would be expensive fast.

Even assuming you don't hire the second person, you'd still almost need to double the ticket price per person (if not even a tad higher) in order to cover the additional cost per customer, the nicer (and probably more expensive) buses with running water, the extra manpower and logistics to fill the water tank with water (even if it's not drinkable, but I'm not sure what health code would require,) stock the buses with snacks and drink, etc. You'd also want to make sure you're covering the cost of your food, drink, etc. you're providing.

There'd also have to be a consideration on what kind of food. Basically, you'd be looking at chips and other snacks that won't spoil if they're sitting out on a non-air-conditioned bus for a few hours (think being in the yard, laying over somewhere for a few hours with the bus off, etc.) You'd also have to source them, find a way to make sure there's enough for everyone without going broke or having people hoard the snacks, etc. Not impossible, but not necessarily quite as easy as it first appears.

Plus, with the greater price difference you differentiate the markets more, which will probably help bring in more riders who aren't as worried about the price. With this kind of service you don't want to price it too low and have people who are mainly focused on price taking seats that probably could be sold for a higher price.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, except for stocking the water tank. Greyhound currently asks baggage handlers to double as cleaners and stocking the toilet fluid in the restroom. The same person could easily stock the water tank.

Greyhound should not put too many snacks in the bar so they wouldn't rot, and place them with cold refrigeration to keep cool. When the bus pulls into the yards, snacks should be transferred to a departing bus so they don't go bad.

The buses would be standard H3-45's and J4500's just made with more amenities, shouldn't be that hard to maintain.

I agree, attendants on buses are a horrible idea, goes expensive fast.

I see your point about fare structure, but BoltBus is known for low fares and this would be more like true Premium Economy on flights, rather than Business or First which is more like Vonlane or LimoLiner.


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## rickycourtney

My point is... if Greyhound's underfloor storage bays are filling up with bags... than it's their own doing. They have a one checked bag rule, they need to enforce it.

That being said... I think that the H3-45 would be a great choice for Greyhound Canada. Having the bigger under bus bins means more room for GPX packages. That is if Greyhound Canada ever gets new buses again and not just hand me downs from the US.

Greyhound may have "flush" toilets right now but it's at best a novelty. It recirculates the "blue water" and there's no flap so you still get all the smells, defeating the purpose of the flush function.


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## rickycourtney

I think you're rushing to judgement on Vonlane. They are a very new operation.

Here's my thoughts on a "BoltBus Deluxe" service:
* The Torino G is the wrong seat for this. As a matter of fact, any 2+2 seating arrangement is wrong for a deluxe service. I would do 2+1 seating and would equip the seats with airline-style tray tables so passengers can comfortably use their laptops. If you remove 4 rows you should be able to get 30 people on.

* Nice restrooms are a must. I would like to see a "residential style" RV toilet and a large sink.

* I'm really split on the concept of an attendant. I think having one ensures that your customers receive a "premium" experience (plus they give you a reason to have those call buttons) but they do add a lot of expense to every trip.

* When it comes to offering an "amenities station" I would install a Keurig brewer (offer coffee, tea and hot chocolate) and a mini fridge (offer sodas, juices and water bottles). If there's an attendant I would offer a light meal at the seat (bagel/fruit in the morning, a sandwich at lunch/dinner). If there's no attendant leave a basket with snacks appropriate to the time of day.

* PTV's are one of those things that sound good on paper, but end up being a pain in the ass in the long run. The individual TV's are expensive and if one goes out of service you need to take the whole bus out of service to repair it. I think VOD is the answer and for passengers who don't have a device you can offer to let them borrow an iPad during the trip.

* You can't pick up passengers on a street corner and you can't pick passengers up at a Greyhound station (no matter how nice you make it). I really like Vonlane's solution of partnering with hotels. That gives passengers a nice place to wait, grab a drink or a full meal, a place to park their car and a place where a cab will likely be waiting.

But if you want to offer a "premium coach" service here's what I would do... remove the first 14 seats and replace them with 9 seats in a 2+1 arrangement, install a bulkhead/aisle curtain and place a small "amenities station" one side of the aisle (an airpot with coffee, a basket with bags of snacks and a mini-fridge below). I'd also upgrade the restroom and place it midship between the two sections. You should get about 32 "coach" seats and 9 "premium coach" seats... a loss of 18% of the seats. But you could charge 25-40% more for the "premium coach" seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No no no, 2-1 seating is a big NO-NO for profitable bus ops. Can increase legroom, but NO 2-1 seating, must have 2-2 or else it wouldn't be BoltBus. 2-1 would require at least twice the fare to make a profit. An attendant would require thrice the fare to make a profit.

I'm not suggesting luxury buses here. I'm suggesting you pay a bit more to get a bit more. Not pay a lot more and get a lot more. This is still Greyhound, this is NOT Vonlane or LimoLiner.


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## Green Maned Lion

Obviously, Swadian, you made a mistake. If a bus has 2-2 seating with 48 seats (12 rows) and needs to make $960 in revenue to make a profit, it must charge $20 per seat to make a profit. If it has 2-1 seating, it sits 36, and must charge $26.67 to make the same revenue. That is a price increase of 33.3%, a third.


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## rickycourtney

For comfort reasons I disagree. I'll tolerate being shoulder to shoulder on BoltBus because it's cheap. But if I'm paying a premium price I want some breathing room. Also when I'm traveling solo I'd prefer to sit by myself. I'd pay 33% more for that.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's the problem, you all know what airline Business Class started out as, right? They started out as "a step above" regular Economy. Then they morphed into flat bed seats and, in some cases, even replaced First Class. I'm talking about international flights here.

So, you put 2-1 seating in a bus, you will have to increase the legroom and the seat width to accommodate larger seats. You would be making a luxury bus service. It's not just 48 seats going to 36 seats. Think this way: you have a H3-45 standard at 56 seats. Take out four rows first to create extra legroom. Drop down to 40 seats. Then make 2-1 seating, drop down to 30 seats. Standard BoltBus is 50 seats. Add the other various costs of a luxury operation, as said by JebR, and you'll be charging double fare over standard Bolt. Add an attendant, triple fare. An attendant would be almost useless anyway, and I do say almost, but seriously, what is he going to do? Food service? Yeah, quadruple fare for the galley and food, you'll be making Vonlane fast and doing the same thing airlines did to Business Class.

My suggestion for BoltBus Deluxe would not be a luxury bus service. It would "a step above" regular BoltBus. Any bus with 2-1 seating is not "a step above" the average bus on the road. Technically BoltBus already is a step above because they out one row of seating. But many people still say it's not enough. So this would be to appease those people, and extra legroom would do that. Extra seat width would not do that, because you can simply have 2-2 seating and allow a passenger to reserve double seating at double fare. That way larger and smaller passengers could differentiate themselves.

For me, 2-1 seating we be a big huge waste because 2-2 is more than enough for me, though perhaps I am just too skinny, but again, the average American should fit perfectly in Torino G. Want more room? Buy double tickets. Better idea than ostracizing the smaller passengers that don't need the room and don't want to pay extra.

Good thing about Torino G, the seats have only a tiny gap between them, so two would merge to form one seat: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AABVK8_021XshoQ3gHTqqs67a/10010-3986.jpg.

And GML, you are the one that said you loved that blue interior with Torino G.

Edit: Now that double seating at double fare would double fare over a single BoltBus Deluxe. As I said, Greyhound could charge 1.5 times regular Bolt fare, double of that would be 3 times regular Bolt fare, yes, quite a bit extra, but you want it, you pay for it, and you get it.


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## railiner

Interesting discussion. A good example of an upgraded service, is that of C&J which basically runs from Portsmouth, NH, to Boston Logan Airport. They have found themselves a niche route, from Portsmouth to New York City, with a stop at Shrewsbury, Ma....They use H3-45's with WiFi, 30 seats, arranged 2&1, and a complimentary self-serve snack bar, which has a K-Cup brewer, a minifridge with soft drinks and bottled water, and a basket of various snacks. They provide a fast thru service, that no one else provides, so they do not directly complete with the other buslines. Rather, they target airlines and motorists....

I worked long enough to remember the extensive network of "Five-Star Luxury Service", that various Trailways carrier's provided, as well as Greyhound's "Bus-Plus Service". Having to provide the staffing (the hostesses), turned out to be a real "PITA" for the dispatcher's back then. And if they couldn't fill one, they had to have an agent at the gate to refund the surcharges to the disappointed passenger's. On some occasion's, they coaxed an extraboard operatior to fulfill that position, with merciless razzing by their coworkers, as you may imagine. Of course, the driver was paid as if driving, so he earned a lot more than the hostesses would have....

***

Today, Greyhound schedule 0306, had to depart with empty seats, as the baggage bays were jammed full, and no more passenger's could board, unless they could carry what they had aboard. This happens this time of year, with the new freshmen going to Syracuse (and other colleges), with everything including the kitchen sink, microwaves, tons of books, clothes, etc. At least the new flat screen TV's don't take as much space as the old TV's did....

Our problem is that we are isolated from the North Wing, where the baggage and express room are located, so it is very difficult to have excess baggage weighed, billed, and charged, or sent as GPX.

Regular GPX is left behind, until the coaches finally have some extra room available.

The X3 and the DL-3, lift equipped, just can't handle it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

College students on Greyhound? Unbelievable in the West. Wow.

Where does 306 go? Could not find it on the 170, the NYD-TOR timetable. What type of bus was it? Yeah, if a X3-45 can't handle it, then I guess a D4505 and 102DL3 couldn't handle it either.

Only the G4500 might handle it, with a lift-equipped cargo hold of 440 cubic feet. The EL3 actually has the most luggage capacity ever, 445 cubic feet cargo hold, 150 overhead, for 595 total and is unaffected by the rear-mounted lift. No wonder Greyhound Canada ordered the EL3 in 1998. Technically the G4500 would have a bit more if it was designed with a rear lift instead of a center lift. H3-45 comes close but has very small overhead parcel racks.

This is why Greyhound might have need for the H3-45 and J4500 instead of losing revenue. Yeah, they could force GPX weighing correctly, but the extra charge isn't going to deter passengers leaving the TV and sink behind. And losing on regular GPX.


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## rickycourtney

Here are my two questions for you John:

Who would your "BoltBus Deluxe" be aimed at? Customers on business trips or leisure travelers who don't want to drive or pay to fly?

-and-

Do you want to create a "premium economy" experience or a "deluxe" experience (like you said)?

Arguably BoltBus already *is* a premium economy bus service (the problems is that line has become blurred now that Greyhound upgraded the rest of the fleet to the same spec).

If you want to create a true "deluxe" service that appeals to choice customers (like those on business trips)... It needs to be a demonstrably better. I think that the best way to do that is with 2-1 seating. It will create a product that is visibly better from the moment you step on board.

Frankly I wouldn't pay more to get an extra couple inches of legroom, a soda and a bag of chips. I can bring my own snacks and considering the bargain prices BoltBus charges I'll suck up the legroom part for a 3.5 hour non stop trip.

I would however pay extra to have a bigger seat like this:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Maybe I should've called it "BoltBus Plus". That's Premium Economy, not Business Class. This is what I'm thinking:

A guy goes on Bolt looking to buy tickets. He finds low fares but finds an ad stating "Get PTV's, even more legroom, luggage allowance, snacks, and drinks for only $x extra!" Some of those passengers would do it, enough to fill a whole 40 seats per H3-45/J4500.

You want a bigger seat, then just buy two, Bolt could offer that easily. Perhaps 75% more instead of 100% more, so not double baggage allowance. Two Amaya Torino G is better than one Amaya 2-1 anyway, because you get so much more width.

Perhaps not great in the PNW, but SFD-LAD could use it. Yes, you take out three rows of seats, that would make a big increase in legroom. Even a 6'6" guy could be comfortable in that.

If Bolt is successful, then Greyhound could do Greyhound Plus on the LAD-VAN route, as LAD-SAC could use it due to varied passengers, SAC-PUT is packed to the gills and has more middle class pax than the average Greyhound (booking online), PUT-VAN could use it to improve the reputation damage left by the G4500's.


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm not arguing your perspective that a 2-1 is bad. I honestly don't know or care. I argue your math. I have sat on standard seat Greyhounds. They are set up, iirc, at 48 seats. Knock it down to 36 on a 2-1, and the amount you need to increase revenue per passenger to compensate is 1/3. That's not an opinion, that's mathematical fact.

Speaking as a man who is not tall (5'11") but quite wide (375 lbs, 60" waist) a cut above means a wider seat. The extra legroom is meaningless to me, I'm short.

You say your a fairly small guy, John. I understand why the extra width doesn't matter much to you. It does to me.

Luxury means different things to different people. In 1982 you could buy, for the same price, either a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham Delegence or a Mercedes-Benz 240D. The Cadillac came with leather, velour, chrome, wood trim, pillow top seats, power everything, body on frame construction, a antique 350 small block Chevy engine, a live axle, and drum brakes. The Mercedes at that price had vinyl seats, manual everything including mirrors and windows, vinyl seats, no air conditioning, a sophisticated semi-trailing arm rear suspension, a Diesel engine, the safest body structure on the market save Mercedes own S-class, and the only four channel braking system in the industry at the time (save the S-class).

In one you paid for palatial plushness, in the other unsurpassed engineering integrity, safety, and durability (or, if you like, long term peace of mind). Which you choose is purely personal preference.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Don't you understand the double seat option? Offer a passenger to buy a double seat for 75% more. That would fix your hunger for width. You say you are not tall and do not need much legroom. OK, then Greyhound should offer the double-seat option on all buses right now without even thinking about BoltBus Plus and Greyhound Plus.

By the way, they have nothing at 48 seats in the regular fleet, the MC-12 was 47 seats and a 40-footer, now retired, and with the 102D3 which is for sale, the rest all have 50 or 51 seats, and are 45-footers.


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## rickycourtney

Offering two seats are not the same as offering a 2-1 seat.

To take advantage of the second seat, you'd need to fold up the center armrest (which would preclude you from reclining) and any good seat is curved, meaning it's totally uncomfortable to straddle two seats. Also, Amtrak has thought about selling toe seats. It's a bad idea. When a bus is totally full and passengers are being left at the curb, it creates resentment that a seat is being left open.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why would passenger be left on the curb if everyone had reserved seating?

And guess who's seats aren't curved? Amtrak seats and Greyhound's new Premier LS.

Anyways, booking two seats would still give you much more room but with a curved seat you would have to center yourself on one seat and utilize the extra space of the other seat to accommodate a large parson's increased size. I can't say anything because the Patriot PT fits me perfectly and the Torino G would also fir me perfectly since they have very similar diagrams. I'm just not that big of a guy.


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## railiner

We had a rare visit at The Port on Monday by GLC 1333. I don't know what trip it came down on, but they sent it up to Montreal on trip 4034. That coach used to come down regularly on the pool from Toronto. It is painted white, and still has 55 seats.....I believe they sent it to Toronto by error..


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## rickycourtney

What was so revolutainary about BoltBus was that it offered a "premium coach" experience (leather seats, more legroom, power outlets, free WiFi) on non-stop routes, often with prices lower than Greyhound.

I don't oppose BoltBus returning to being an "upgrade" to Greyhound... but I just don't see the companies core customers being the type who will pay extra for PTV's, more legroom, an additional piece of luggage, snacks, and drinks.

The core customer is thrifty and tech savvy. They are likely to have a smartphone and an tablet (and not need a PTV), are traveling for leisure (with the ability to pack light) and smart enough to stash a soda and a snack in their backpack before heading to the bus stop. I know this customer well... because I am that customer. That perfectly describes every trip I've taken on BoltBus.

That being said, I think Vonlane and Limoliner are on to something. There is a mostly untapped market for a luxury bus line that can appeal to business customers and a customer who has more disposable income... while offering a service that competes with the airlines with travel time downtown to downtown.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> College students on Greyhound? Unbelievable in the West. Wow.
> 
> Where does 306 go? Could not find it on the 170, the NYD-TOR timetable. What type of bus was it? Yeah, if a X3-45 can't handle it, then I guess a D4505 and 102DL3 couldn't handle it either.
> 
> Only the G4500 might handle it, with a lift-equipped cargo hold of 440 cubic feet. The EL3 actually has the most luggage capacity ever, 445 cubic feet cargo hold, 150 overhead, for 595 total and is unaffected by the rear-mounted lift. No wonder Greyhound Canada ordered the EL3 in 1998. Technically the G4500 would have a bit more if it was designed with a rear lift instead of a center lift. H3-45 comes close but has very small overhead parcel racks.
> 
> This is why Greyhound might have need for the H3-45 and J4500 instead of losing revenue. Yeah, they could force GPX weighing correctly, but the extra charge isn't going to deter passengers leaving the TV and sink behind. And losing on regular GPX.


Sorry, I meant trip 4270....Leaves NYC at 0715 to Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester , and Buffalo....in the off-season, it becomes trip 306, same schedule, but thru to Toronto, instead of trip 308, which is a summer run....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Maybe not BoltBus Plus then, but Greyhound Plus. All those families with kids on Greyhound in the summer, aw, they'd get so excited about PTV's, they would never ride Megabus again, or drive their own car unless it's a really, really nice car.

Greyhound has long fought private cars, this will be a great breakout and would make their reputation so much better, so much faster.


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> Today, Greyhound schedule 0306, had to depart with empty seats, as the baggage bays were jammed full, and no more passenger's could board, unless they could carry what they had aboard. This happens this time of year, with the new freshmen going to Syracuse (and other colleges), with everything including the kitchen sink, microwaves, tons of books, clothes, etc. At least the new flat screen TV's don't take as much space as the old TV's did...


That's ridiculous. Paying customers being left at the station... while the excess baggage rides for free.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Maybe not BoltBus Plus then, but Greyhound Plus. All those families with kids on Greyhound in the summer, aw, they'd get so excited about PTV's, they would never ride Megabus again, or drive their own car unless it's a really, really nice car.
> 
> Greyhound has long fought private cars, this will be a great breakout and would make their reputation so much better, so much faster.


Sorry, John. I disagree. PTV's are on the way out.

Consider United Airlines... for years they offered PTV's on planes (with video on demand and DirecTV) but they recently decided to stop buying planes with them. Why? The systems are incredibly expensive to install (often costing hundreds of dollars per seat) and to maintain (I'm sure Greyhound's Denver shop would be thrilled to take a bus out of service to fix a PTV considering they can't even fix the HVAC). Plus passengers on red eye flights complain they glow all night with advertisements (they're not user friendly to turn off).

United is now investing in the same technology as Greyhound... on-board servers that can stream content to devices owned by passengers. Doing "Bring Your Own Device" (BYOD) is cheaper for the company and frankly a better experience (my iPad's screen is larger than most PTV's I've ever used).


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## Green Maned Lion

John, I don't think you understand the mindset of the (relatively) well heeled. I don't want to brag but I AM fairly wealthy, I do own a fairly expensive car, I do own my house lock stock and barrel no mortgage, and so on. I don't want to take up to seats. I want a wide, comfortable recliner, such as that offered in Amtrak Midwest Business class. I want no stress about people even thinking of pestering me about an "empty" seat either.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> John, I don't think you understand the mindset of the (relatively) well heeled. I don't want to brag but I AM fairly wealthy, I do own a fairly expensive car, I do own my house lock stock and barrel no mortgage, and so on. I don't want to take up to seats. I want a wide, comfortable recliner, such as that offered in Amtrak Midwest Business class. I want no stress about people even thinking of pestering me about an "empty" seat either.


Right, having two seats is not the same as having one really nice seat.
While I'm firmly middle class I don't mind spending more when I see the benefit of something. For example I would never purchase Economy Plus seats, it's the same lousy seat with 4 more inches of legroom. I would however consider upgrading to business class on airlines that keep it affordable (AirTran is a good example) because you get a much nicer seat along with the legroom.

I think that by offering nicer 2-1 seating, a "BoltBus Deluxe" would be able to attract both business passengers and people like me who just want a little more room.

Plus the dimensions of 2-1 seating stacks up nicely compared to airline business class.

Greyhound - 18.5" width + 30" pitch

2-1 Bus Seating - 22" width + 36" pitch

Airline Business Class: 22" width + 37" pitch (AirTran 737)

Airline Coach 17" width + 31" pitch (United 737)

Airline Economy Plus 17" width + 35" pitch (United 737)

Amtrak Coach- 21" width + 48" pitch

There is one company that does sell two seats... that sketchy CA Shuttle Bus. They offer to sell you the second seat for $15 more.


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## Green Maned Lion

Actually what I really want to see is seething like the Megabus Gold service in England. Some luxury, overnight, berth.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound actually has 36" pitch already, I measured it in the upright position. Definitely not 30" unless you get a reduced legroom seat which is usually around the wheelchair lift and the front "theater" portion on MCI's.

I've found PTV's very useful on Trans-Pacific flights, and Delta recently installed PTV's in their 747-400's.

Hey Railiner, #1333 is a really rare bus, it's a second-hand D4505 from Hotard. Surprised it went to Canada since it has a wheelchair lift and could easily have joined the current D4505 Stronghold in Los Angeles. Seems to be based from Toronto as many photos of that unit were taken in Toronto.

I found this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/14238589605/sizes/l. Check out that "D4505" label by the entrance door, most Greyhounds don't have that.

Oh yeah, it lost paint a while back: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_surf_lfs/11764928585/sizes/k/. You can see the part under the paint is stainless steel. No wonder NJT didn't paint theirs, probably doesn't even matter.

Wonder what seating it has.

Oh yeah, #1334, one number higher, used to #1170 which was the scene of the beheading in Canada back in 2008.


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## Green Maned Lion

The one I wanna see is 1337.


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## Misty.

I must agree with GML there  ^_^


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> The one I wanna see is 1337.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey Railiner, #1333 is a really rare bus, it's a second-hand D4505 from Hotard. Surprised it went to Canada since it has a wheelchair lift and could easily have joined the current D4505 Stronghold in Los Angeles. Seems to be based from Toronto as many photos of that unit were taken in Toronto.
> 
> I found this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/14238589605/sizes/l. Check out that "D4505" label by the entrance door, most Greyhounds don't have that.
> 
> Oh yeah, it lost paint a while back: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_surf_lfs/11764928585/sizes/k/. You can see the part under the paint is stainless steel. No wonder NJT didn't paint theirs, probably doesn't even matter.
> 
> Wonder what seating it has.
> 
> Oh yeah, #1334, one number higher, used to #1170 which was the scene of the beheading in Canada back in 2008.


That coach used to be in the "NeOn" pool with us. The interior is much plusher than the typical GLI....has enclosed parcel racks, and video system, among its amenities. Don't recall what seats, but they were a plush looking blue patterned fabric. And you're right about the paint peeling off....saw more of the stainless on the left rear lower corner panel. I took a front and rear photo of it parked at gate 26....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Took a photo? Could you please post it?

Has a "plush blue pattern fabric", maybe like this? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1280_back.jpg. That's Greyhound Canada's own D4505 interior, but I guess it doesn't have video system and enclosed parcel racks.

This is Greyhound Canada's old DL3 interior with enclosed racks and video systems: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1156_back.jpg.

Or perhaps similar to Jefferson's D4505 interior? https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/6247684472.


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## Green Maned Lion

Finally you figured this out?


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually what I really want to see is seething like the Megabus Gold service in England. Some luxury, overnight, berth.


I like the idea. You're able to start exploring or get to work first thing in the morning and you save on hotel costs. The only problem I foresee is that the length of the route would have to be *just right*. I'd say between 6-9 hours. Too little time and nobody gets a good nights rest, but too long and you might as well fly.

LA-SF might work. It's a 6 hour drive and there's a big market for transportation between the cities.

Boston-DC would work too... but only if there was no stop in NY. I wouldn't want to ride if I had to make a stop in the middle of the trip, have the aisle lights come on and have people shuffle past my head. But without a stop in NY it might not be viable.

Any other thoughts on a service like this or routes?


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## Green Maned Lion

New York-Chicago would work if you developed a tray meal. New York- Detroit would work if you had anybody who wanted to go to Detroit.


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## jebr

Minneapolis to Chicago would work quite well. Almost exactly 8 hours.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Dose of Greyhounds: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14818892157/.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Took a photo? Could you please post it?
> 
> Has a "plush blue pattern fabric", maybe like this? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1280_back.jpg. That's Greyhound Canada's own D4505 interior, but I guess it doesn't have video system and enclosed parcel racks.
> 
> This is Greyhound Canada's old DL3 interior with enclosed racks and video systems: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1156_back.jpg.
> 
> Or perhaps similar to Jefferson's D4505 interior? https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/6247684472.


Sorry, still haven't learned to post photo's... :blush: They are 'in' my phone......

But the color was like the first photo, and the fabric also covered the walls and ceiling like the second photo, IIRC


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound mechanic James Nelson from the Richmond Body Shop, 2002 report on the G4500:

"Seriously, has this construction error been corrected, or will

they wait until the G's are prepped for resale at ABC?

That retrofit has been taken care of. The fortunate thing about

the G4500's breaking down so often is that there is plenty of

time to do these engineering upgrades while you wait for repair

parts to be shipped from MCI.

Speaking from the trenches of the Greyhound maintenance system,

it is painful to hear upper management continue to sing the

praises of these things. It is my opinion that the worst is yet

to come. A large portion of the undercarriage is carbon steel,

like the Eagle 10's, which were infamous for rusting to peices -

literally. A tire blowout causes serious damage to the

underside and fenders of the bus, unlike the earlier models.

The driver's defroster unit and the two different electronic

HVAC systems have their own individual troubles, it is still

easy to drive the cooling fan into the radiator in a parking lot

accident, the mufflers are falling off, the driver's floor on

the G41 prototype units are getting a little soft, the entrance

door steps are becoming trampolines, the turn signal flashers

last for about a month before burning out, the tag axle bearing

boxes are failing (with a retrofit issued for the too-thin

retaining washer), the driver's modesty panel mounts break

loose, the under-reach that is the only way to tow a bus is

mangling the bottom of the spare tire compartment (which happens

with depressing regularity), there still is not a reliable

engine fan guard(A week or so ago, there was a G model towed

into the shop with less than 5000 miles on it - the fan guard

had fallen off and destroyed the cooling fan), and all of the

exterior door latches are too cheaply made to be reliable.

This does not include the massive coolant-related issues we are

having fleet-wide or the problems inherent in releasing a

completely new model without training the people who actually

have to use it, or the difficulties in stocking proper levels of

things like brake shoes, or heater valves, or bumpers.

However, none of that matters. Greyhound management is

dedicated to making the G model the new standard for the fleet.

There is a problem, however, in the fact that MCI is constantly

changing the equipment on them. Axles, brakes, and HVAC sytems

have all been changed in just the first 200 production units.

Ah well, at least it is job security for a lot of Greyhound mechanics."


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## railiner

There you go........


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ha, obviously the G4500 ended up not being the standard coach of Greyhound's fleet, and the ensuing fleet shortage probably forced some profitable routes into cancellation.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound takes the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCj8AtF-fgw.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Want to see something interesting? A Greyhound J4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9204308756/sizes/l.

Flat from front: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9204312754/sizes/l.


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## railiner

links didn't work....got to some kind of flickr logon page......


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## Swadian Hardcore

These electronics! I'll try attaching. Photos courtesy Rashjan [email protected]/Flickr. You have to click on them. 
/Flickr.


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## rickycourtney

Since I didn't want to take your other thread too far off track… I'll say this here:

All in all, I think the news that overbooking has been largely eliminated is great news and goes a long way towards addressing a major complaint of customers. In my opinion, the only major thing left for the company to tackle is real-time bus tracking. Customers deserve to be able to get up-to-the-minute arrival information on their smartphones. Relying on bus drivers to call in to the next station is unreliable and it doesn't help customers who are catching the bus at an unstaffed stop.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, it's now up to Dave Leach to do that. Will he do that? I think he will, sooner or later, but he should be careful in this time when Greyhound still has 200,000 publicized haters on the internet.

I think the immediate next step for Greyhound should be to introduce more Limited services which have proven very popular, then tackle the communications problem. Maybe some more buses here and there but no major order. Greyhound is still pressing White G's into service during the summer schedules.


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## Misty.

*looks at those two pictures* oooh, and I'm having to bus home from Atlanta, so it's possible I could get to ride this specific bus... :3


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## Swadian Hardcore

Misty. said:


> *looks at those two pictures* oooh, and I'm having to bus home from Atlanta, so it's possible I could get to ride this specific bus... :3


Don't let looks deceive you, the J is known for HVAC problems, but it's indeed been the best-seller for ten years running. So it can't be too bad even though drivers don't like them. I think they run out of Dallas Garage, not Atlanta Garage. Here's one in Dallas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9206334776/sizes/h/.

The J4500 sure looks great in Greyhound Neoclassic, really amazing how Neoclassic looks great on any coach. But it appears they used the wrong point on the J painting, because a lot of them have chipped white spots in the paint despite being recently painted.

If you're riding ATD-STD, starts at $59 bucks, runs 2x Daily. But please ride the daytime 4502 instead of overnight 4700. What type of bus? I don't really know, please take photos so that we could see.

Nobody knows what the inside of Greyhound's J-units look like right now, but they are just your standard charter buses except looking different in the blue livery. Standard interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busdudedotcom/9198634782/sizes/l. Show interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/7578100572/sizes/l.

Edit: Show interior link doesn't work.


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## Misty.

Still, I'd like a ride in that one just to know I have  As far as scheduling... I have to take the overnight one, as a compromise between wanting as much of Friday in Atlanta as possible without having to deal with TSfail combined with still getting back to STL and making my way from the station to my work by 8:00 am on Saturday. Yes, I will be existing on caffeine heavily Saturday (and yes, I'm working on a 2 liter of Mtn Dew right now to help me stay awake till 22 time. It's doing well so far, no more than 9 minutes late at any stop :3).

EDIT: *goes back to her confirmation email* $91.80 plus will call fee (what, if i have to pay that fee regardless, i might as well make them print it for me :/) Still, I booked that ticket July 22nd, so I at least know I paid less than I probably would have to, say, if I booked it today.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well uh, 4700 overnight gets into STD at 12:05 PM, too late for you to make work. So I don't see what you are trying to do. Are you trying to 1192 to Nashville transfer to 1162 and continue to Saint Louis? In that case, be careful since 1162 is a Tallahasse-Saint Louis. Get to that Nashville gate early or else you might get a bad seat even though that route doesn't have interlining so no overbooking.

I know they have a nice new terminal in Nashville now.

In that case I hope you ride a DL3 or Blue G since those have the best seats for sleeping. Blue G has the same interior as the J but wider seats. The J is built for charters and Greyhound's are second-hand, so they probably have narrow seats. I really like the Blue G though, tons of legroom: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15004646326/.

And looks nice too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14603667207/.


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## Misty.

Yup, 1192 to 1162 is what I'm doing. Hmm, how recently was Nashville's terminal redone? (I was there in July of 2011, when I did 4711 St Louis to Atlanta to meet and hang out with some people).

I'm expecting sleep to be rubbish at best, especially with the transfer, heh.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's the new Nashville terminal: http://transitzac.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/nashville-greyhound-station.jpg.

Yeah, sleep will be rubbish, especially since the stops are off the hypnogram: http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/interactive/sleep_lab.

If possible, try to avoid waking up at the stops, when the interior lights have to turn on. Plug your ears and cover your eyes with eye shades. On a run like this, you'll be glad you did! And bring a pillow to sit on in case you get a new bus with sagging seats. When the seats sag, you get severe hip pain, and you have to counter the sagging by sitting on a pillow. No problem if it's an old bus. At least even that J is old second-hand so no sagging seats.


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## Misty.

Ooh, nice. But yeah, I've got a pair of promotional sunglasses I can swap out for my prescription glasses on the bus to help block out light, and in situations like buses or coach sleep, I listen to music via ear buds, so at least I'm covered on the ear blocking... at least somewhat, I lose or break them often enough that I just stick to the cheapest pair I can find with in line controls. heh


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't think sunglasses will work, I think you need actual eye shades. The white overhead courtesy lighting inside the buses turn on too brightly at stops to avoid waking up, unless you have a completely-opaque eye shade.


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## rickycourtney

Plus a nice eyeshade will be nicer to sleep in. Sunglasses put pressure on your temples.


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## Misty.

Eh, I'm also thinking better than nothing when I don't possess the other for normal use, let alone rarer circumstances heh

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore

Can't you just buy an eye cover at Wal-Mart?

Edit: Oh yeah Ricky, rumors are out that Greyhound leased 25 Van Hool TX45's intending to test them on BoltBus routes out of Seattle. Apparently they were spotted in Idaho headed to the PNW painted for BoltBus.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Can't you just buy an eye cover at Wal-Mart?
> 
> Edit: Oh yeah Ricky, rumors are out that Greyhound leased 25 Van Hool TX45's intending to test them on BoltBus routes out of Seattle. Apparently they were spotted in Idaho headed to the PNW painted for BoltBus.


If true, that would be a surprise, for sure! And the taller TX45's instead of the CX45's? Very surprising....


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## rickycourtney

I'll keep my eyes peeled!

It certainly is an interesting choice considering the TX45 is Van Hool's "luxury coach" (like the J4500 and the H3-45).


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## Misty.

You can if you get the idea far enough out to plan when you don't drive heh (or at least have semi decent transit coverage/scheduling) heh

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Caesar La Rock

Do these TX45s have DD13s or ISX engines?


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## Swadian Hardcore

That TX lease is just a rumor. No confirmation, no nothing. Apprently someone said he heard from someone else that had spotted BoltBus TX45's in Idaho headed on delivery to Seattle and said that yet another person from Greyhound had told him they were on lease, 25 units all going to BoltBus Seattle. Mistake, apprently 5 TX45 and 20 CX45 models?

_"I don't know how many VanHools Greyhound has but I know of 5 I personally saw in Idaho and Nev on a trip they were the new TX models one nice looking bus with the paint scheme and the dog on the sides here you do see a lot of the new D but not many older one

Well it wasn't my lying eyes I spoke with Mark the TX Vanhools were coming from their FL location on the way to Greyhounds Bolt in Portland where the paint scheme was wrapped with Bolt's colors
Greyhound has a 5 year lease on 25 Vanhools 5 Tx and 20 of the CX models and they are working on another lease order with ABC doing all the maintenance"_

Nobody knows what the engine is right now and the units are not on the Greyhound roster being supposedly leased.

If a DD13, that would be a surprise since Van Hool is not part of the Daimler family, but MCI is 10% Daimler. Considering Greyhound's woes with Cummins, I doubt they would actually buy anything with Cummins until the fuel-guzzling problems get fixed.

The TX45 may be Van Hool's luxury model, but since they are cheaper than MCI's in general, probably not more expensive than a D4505 or Prevost's X3-45. Maybe they have Van Hool seating instead of Premier LS.


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## rickycourtney

Interestingly… the standard engine on the TX45 is a Detroit Diesel DD13 (450 HP) with the option to get a Cummins ISX 12.0 (425 HP). I read on CPTDB that Daimler stopped sales of Detroit Diesel engines to other manufacturers in 2010. Obviously exceptions have been made for MCI and Van Hool.

I imagine the price of a TX45 is very close to the D4505 or X3-45.

I hope that Greyhound didn't insist on installing the Premier LS seats on these buses. The Van Hool body line seats would be a huge improvement. Van Hool also offers the option of Amaya Torino G & A-2TEN seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Everybody offers Torino G and A-2TEN seats right now, the Torino VIP appears to be dead in the US due to lack of "containment".

Yeah, a TX45 probably costs about $500,000 but the H3-45 costs more like $600,000 so it would still be cheaper than the competition. Obviously the TX45 is targeting the H3-45 market, it even looks similar.

TX45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dansmotorcoachgallery/14429953057/sizes/l.

H3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dansmotorcoachgallery/14414929090/sizes/c/.


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## rickycourtney

Take a look at the stats sheets for each too. They're surprisingly similar. Looks like Van Hool just copied the H3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh my gosh, even look at the dashboard! The TX45 dashboard looks almost the exact same as the H3-45.

TX45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/10576668915/sizes/l.

H3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/5379574352/sizes/l.

I looked at the spec sheet. The TX45 seems to have tiny parcel racks compared to even the H3-45. Also, the turning circle is much, much less. The overall height is a tiny bit lower.

Notice the TX45 has a "deluxe tour guide seat" as a standard option. If the rumors are true, wonder what Bolt would do with that. Allow on another passenger?

The 48/56 seating of the TX40/45 seems to be the exact same as the H3-41/45, but I believe the TX45 offers extra legroom so maybe Bolt could keep all 56 seats and that tour guide seat, making 57 capacity. Someone else in need of even more capacity could probably get a 60-seat TX45 consider there were 61-seat T2145's.

Man, a TX40 turns in 34'4.8". A Toyota Tundra pickup truck apparently turns in 44'. Now I see why people buy Van Hools, but I still don't think they are better than the proven reliable H3-45.


----------



## Misty.

All right, can I just get to Atlanta already? Still, I'll get there a little faster than if I'd been able to consent to a coach seat on 19... Later today. At least I'm currently on my first known H3-45? "Meh" comes to mind but I'm a bit sleep deprived and cranky right now. And between this being (only from my perspective) a Richmond bound bus and my seatmate not being my traveling companion, I'll keep it at that.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Oh my gosh, even look at the dashboard! The TX45 dashboard looks almost the exact same as the H3-45.
> 
> TX45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/10576668915/sizes/l.
> 
> H3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/5379574352/sizes/l.


The Prevost dashboard looks like it was based on the dashboard of a Volvo truck, which makes since. Really the only similarity between the dashboard on the Van Hool and the Prevost is that they both have a big LCD screen in the middle.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I looked at the spec sheet. The TX45 seems to have tiny parcel racks compared to even the H3-45. Also, the turning circle is much, much less. The overall height is a tiny bit lower.


I noticed that the parcel racks are small too. But frankly I've found *all* parcel racks on buses to be underused.

Van Hool is measuring turning radius from the outside of the tire... which is a bit misleading.

FWIW, the Tundra's turning radius is measured curb to curb.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Notice the TX45 has a "deluxe tour guide seat" as a standard option. If the rumors are true, wonder what Bolt would do with that. Allow on another passenger?
> 
> The 48/56 seating of the TX40/45 seems to be the exact same as the H3-41/45, but I believe the TX45 offers extra legroom so maybe Bolt could keep all 56 seats and that tour guide seat, making 57 capacity. Someone else in need of even more capacity could probably get a 60-seat TX45 consider there were 61-seat T2145's.


I'm positive that Greyhound would have deleted the tour guide seat if possible and removed it if not. Tour guide seats take up room in the entryway and I doubt they would allow a customer to be sitting forward of the aisle shield.

I still think Greyhound would remove some seats. They market "more legroom" pretty heavily. Also it would be sorta awkward to have a 56 seat bus when every other bus in the fleet has 50 seats.


----------



## railiner

They are close in appearance....the newer H3 headlight area looks even more like the TX than that Brewster does....

The dashboards are not that alike...the Prevost does have a Volvo truck dashboard.

One thing that I strongly dislike about our CO2045's (similar display to the TX), is that to see the air pressure, you must press a button, and then it only displays for a few seconds.

I am surprised that the DOT allows that setup. The analog dials on the Prevost (and every other bus I have ever driven, are always visible....

The TX may be a copy of the H3, but I'll bet it doesn't ride as well....


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## railiner

As for the seating....The last bus I saw with a tourguide seat was a GLC DL3, back in the 90's....I agree, GL would remove a tourguide seat, and even if they didn't, they would never allow a revenue passenger to sit there, perhaps a 'cushioning' driver, but probably not that either....

As I mentioned previously, the Van Hool does have a room advantage, since the cabin extends to the rear wall of the coach, giving almost the equivalent space of an extra row, where the Prevost and MCI have engine accessories....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Misty. said:


> All right, can I just get to Atlanta already? Still, I'll get there a little faster than if I'd been able to consent to a coach seat on 19... Later today. At least I'm currently on my first known H3-45? "Meh" comes to mind but I'm a bit sleep deprived and cranky right now. And between this being (only from my perspective) a Richmond bound bus and my seatmate not being my traveling companion, I'll keep it at that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


You're riding a H3-45? You are riding a H3-45 on Greyhound?!

I told you should've brought eye shades, that way you don't get as cranky off fatigue because you don't have as much fatigue.

My best way of taking long distances by Greyhound is to not ride overnight at all and sleep in a hotel. Like, for example, sleep in Richmond. Are you really on Richmond-bound bus out of Atlanta heading to Saint Louis? I'm really confused between this and the H3-45 reference.

I'm assuming you're on a X3-45 which looks like the H3-45 but is not as tall. Greyhound's X3-45 have horrible new seating which would explain any discomfort you may have.



railiner said:


> They are close in appearance....the newer H3 headlight area looks even more like the TX than that Brewster does....
> 
> The dashboards are not that alike...the Prevost does have a Volvo truck dashboard.
> 
> One thing that I strongly dislike about our CO2045's (similar display to the TX), is that to see the air pressure, you must press a button, and then it only displays for a few seconds.
> 
> I am surprised that the DOT allows that setup. The analog dials on the Prevost (and every other bus I have ever driven, are always visible....
> 
> The TX may be a copy of the H3, but I'll bet it doesn't ride as well....


You pay less you get less. TX45 isn't a H3-45 and it isn't the most luxurious bus in the world. Surprisingly the EL3 was so much worse than the H3-45, they cost about the same back in the day, I believe.



railiner said:


> As for the seating....The last bus I saw with a tourguide seat was a GLC DL3, back in the 90's....I agree, GL would remove a tourguide seat, and even if they didn't, they would never allow a revenue passenger to sit there, perhaps a 'cushioning' driver, but probably not that either....
> 
> As I mentioned previously, the Van Hool does have a room advantage, since the cabin extends to the rear wall of the coach, giving almost the equivalent space of an extra row, where the Prevost and MCI have engine accessories....


That's why maybe with that room advantage they wouldn't take out a row of seats, but then again, that would cause overbooking in case a Van Hool broke down and got swapped out with a MCI or Prevost. But still, how did Prevost get 56 seats in their H3-45 without having a middle seat? The H3-45 is 45' flat while the D4505 is 45'5" and the J4500 is about 45'9" I believe.

Edit: Found a pic of the old H3-45 dashboard: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bourgeois/bourgeois03050_driver.jpg.


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## Misty.

Hmm. Might have mixed things up a bit. I will come back to this when I have more time but I will in the meantime say I know darn well I had at least of that type for sure.

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## Swadian Hardcore

Wait a second, Greyhound leased a few TX45's right? What if they also leased a few H3-45's for testing considering they are the TX45's competitor?

:huh:

Edit: Maybe it was just a X3-45 with sagging seats. If you sat down and couldn't make yourself comfortable in any position, that is a sign of Greyhound's horrible new seats. But man, is the Blue G so much better! All that legroom and padding makes it great for sleeping along with the rebuilt DL3. Haven't sat in regular DL3 seating for a long time so can't speak for legroom. All my DL3 rides in 2013 and 2014 were in front seats which have weird legroom due to the "tiering".


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Misty. said:
> 
> 
> 
> All right, can I just get to Atlanta already? Still, I'll get there a little faster than if I'd been able to consent to a coach seat on 19... Later today. At least I'm currently on my first known H3-45? "Meh" comes to mind but I'm a bit sleep deprived and cranky right now. And between this being (only from my perspective) a Richmond bound bus and my seatmate not being my traveling companion, I'll keep it at that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> You're riding a H3-45? You are riding a H3-45 on Greyhound?!
> 
> I told you should've brought eye shades, that way you don't get as cranky off fatigue because you don't have as much fatigue.
> 
> My best way of taking long distances by Greyhound is to not ride overnight at all and sleep in a hotel. Like, for example, sleep in Richmond. Are you really on Richmond-bound bus out of Atlanta heading to Saint Louis? I'm really confused between this and the H3-45 reference.
> 
> I'm assuming you're on a X3-45 which looks like the H3-45 but is not as tall. Greyhound's X3-45 have horrible new seating which would explain any discomfort you may have.
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are close in appearance....the newer H3 headlight area looks even more like the TX than that Brewster does....
> 
> The dashboards are not that alike...the Prevost does have a Volvo truck dashboard.
> 
> One thing that I strongly dislike about our CO2045's (similar display to the TX), is that to see the air pressure, you must press a button, and then it only displays for a few seconds.
> 
> I am surprised that the DOT allows that setup. The analog dials on the Prevost (and every other bus I have ever driven, are always visible....
> 
> The TX may be a copy of the H3, but I'll bet it doesn't ride as well....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You pay less you get less. TX45 isn't a H3-45 and it isn't the most luxurious bus in the world. Surprisingly the EL3 was so much worse than the H3-45, they cost about the same back in the day, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the seating....The last bus I saw with a tourguide seat was a GLC DL3, back in the 90's....I agree, GL would remove a tourguide seat, and even if they didn't, they would never allow a revenue passenger to sit there, perhaps a 'cushioning' driver, but probably not that either....
> 
> As I mentioned previously, the Van Hool does have a room advantage, since the cabin extends to the rear wall of the coach, giving almost the equivalent space of an extra row, where the Prevost and MCI have engine accessories....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's why maybe with that room advantage they wouldn't take out a row of seats, but then again, that would cause overbooking in case a Van Hool broke down and got swapped out with a MCI or Prevost. But still, how did Prevost get 56 seats in their H3-45 without having a middle seat? The H3-45 is 45' flat while the D4505 is 45'5" and the J4500 is about 45'9" I believe.
> 
> Edit: Found a pic of the old H3-45 dashboard: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bourgeois/bourgeois03050_driver.jpg.
Click to expand...

That photo is of the oldest style dash in the early H3-45, as well as the H3-40, and the H5-60....

The H's restroom is laid out "sideways", so there is never a "three seat" back row. Standard seating is 56. Our buses remove a row, yielding 52 seats with extra legroom. The X3's as well as our XLII's have conventional restrooms, so there is space for an optional "three seater" in the rear. Normal capacity is 55. We remove a row yielding 51 seats with extra legroom. GL has done that, and opted for only a two seat rear seat, yielding 50 seats with extra legroom.

Our Van Hools standard layout is 57 seats. We removed a row in some, yielding 53 seats with extra legroom. Our latest only have a two seater in the rear, so only have 52 seats, matching our Prevost H's....


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## Swadian Hardcore

How was the old dashboard in the H3-45? Seems really "square" to me. I wonder what the H3-45 was originally designed as, I think it was originally called Prevost High-Capacity Coach or something like that? So maybe it was originally designed for high capacity rather than luxury?

I don't remember using the restroom in a H, I haven't taken any significant rides in it AFAIK, or maybe I have I just don't remember. How exactly is the lavatory laid out? Being sideways, does it take the full width of the coach? Or does it only take 3/5 width allowing a seat pair snuck in to the left side?

I was thinking about how they got 56 seats in that thing and some units have 58 seats. I wonder if that was from reduced legroom or a design element? If it had a full-width lavatory, the seating should have been reduced, not increased, right? And do the rows match up across the aisle or are they staggered like in the X3-45 and most others coaches (D4505, 102DL3, G4500, etc)?


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## railiner

That photo in the link that you provided, shows the old style dash. It has been considerably improved in many ways over the years, just as the ones in the MCI's have.

There are good and bad features in each design....the newest is very nice overall, but personally I hate the drink cupholder in the slide out drawer....much prefer the MCI's and Van Hool's that have the well type cupholder by the window.....

I believe the 'H' designation is for high level. An interesting tidbit, is that many of those Marathon luxury motorhomes utilize the X -series to modify, but have a raised roof, making them overall as tall is the H....I believe the floor level is not raised...only the roof, so the 'basement' doesn't gain any room, just the interior. These 'entertainer' coaches have enough interior height to allow triple high bunk beds....

They also will make a raised roof H, for that purpose. Put a satellite dish-dome on top, and you have some serious clearance issues....

The H restroom is actully smaller than the one in the X series, and it does take up 3/5 of the width, allowing two seats on the driver's side. And since it doesn't extend forward nearly as far as the conventional 'fore/aft' layout, it allows more seating space on the right side. Some operators will crowd in an extra two seats....and some will even crowd in an extra four seats. yielding either 58 or 60 total.....

Our newest H's seem to have lost even more space in the rear for equipment use, as the restroom bulkhead seems to go all the way across the back, but the inside of the restroom is the same size as the older ones...so the driver's side rows have to crowd in a bit more. I'll have to try to find out why that is. What are they using that space for....

As to whether the rows match up....I don't believe they do, but it's a good question....I'll have to take another look at that, next week....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, a raised-roof H3-45 seems really tall: https://www.flickr.com/photos/millenniumluxurycoaches/8550783279.

I see what you mean about the restroom bulkhead: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/6094467753.

With that large of a bulkhead they should have made a full-width lavatory.

I've heard about some H3-45's with 58 seating but not with 60 seating. Is the H3-45 crowded with 56 seating? I thought as a top-of-the-line coach it should have had at least as much legroom as the X3-45 but you said they like crowd seats in there so it must be cramped. I've ridden a few but never for more than a hour, unless that tour I took over ten years ago was a H3-45 which I can't remember.


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## railiner

There really is no need to make the restroom full width....about the only use would be if they put in a sink with running water, on the opposite end from the toilet. But those are too problematic on a line bus, especially in frigid climates. The hand sanitizer is sufficient for most....

Some of our late model H's (I forgot the exact year(s) offhand), have a small compartment inside the restroom in that area to hold supply's like toilet paper rolls, and sanitizer refills. The newest don't for some reason. And that compartment takes up only a tiny bit of the space in the area.

The standard 56 seats is not bad in the earlier model's with the older seating. But it does get tight in the newer series, even the ones with a row removed (52 seats) are lacking in 'shin room' due to the seat design. We remove a row because a lot of our travel is on overnight schedules as in New York - Toronto. Our commuter's riding between Kingston, New Paltz, and New York, while appreciating the extra legroom, don't "need" it for their 90 to 125 minute ride. As for why some companies cram in an extra pair or two....certain chartering groups demand it....the bigger the better, especially for senior citizens and college kids, where the more they can carry, the less it costs each of them to pay their share of the charter.

I have seen an MCI DL3 with 61 seats crammed in with a restroom(!), by a small charter company....they kept that coach very busy......


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## Swadian Hardcore

Today I saw an All-West H3-45 by the Greyhound Terminal. Really, in person, it doesn't look very welcoming. The driver had opened the engine hatch but I didn't get a shot off in time. The engine was blackened even those the coach wasn't very old, it had the new headlights and the big PREVOST lettering on the rear. The driver looked like an ex-con, too.

Today the arrival from Denver was Blue G #7151 with a huge "100 YEARS" badge and the driver was wearing a red Greyhound Express shirt, although the run from Denver isn't an Express. Station was emptied after the always-popular 8309 to San Francisco departed with D4505 #86516. Also saw White G #7260 with a severe tilt to the left, apparently waiting to get scrapped.

Three other D4505's in addition to that departure 8309.

Really wish my bus from Denver had been a Blue G isn't of that painful X3-45 with sagging seats. No smooth ride compensates for physical pain. No X3-45 or 102DL3 to be seen today.


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## Swadian Hardcore

White G #7260 hanging around Reno last Sunday: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14927769539/.

Tilting to the left.

Think it'll get rebuilt? Or scrapped?


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## Misty.

Believe it or not, I didn't forget about this thread, I just wanted to wait till I was at a computer... How about I just give the bus numbers and you let me know what they are? Heh. I blame any errors in my last post on a mostly a combo of sleep deprivation and "I just wanna get to Atlanta already", with a touch of likely copy/paste fail.

Washington D.C., to Richmond, Virginia... the best picture I have is quite blurry, but I seem to be seeing 86170 for a bus number in it. While I didn't plan on getting any sleep on this segment, I sure don't remember much of the run, either. 

Richmond, Virginia to Knoxville, Tennessee... the pictures I have give me 86055, my confirmed X3-45 of the run. It gets an overwhelming "meh" from me, alleviated somewhat by having a seatmate I could use as a pillow if I wanted to.

Knoxville, Tennessee, to Atlanta, Georgia... 7035.

And for bonus points, while I'm here... The return to St. Louis...

Atlanta to Nashville, Tennessee... 6377 was the number.

Nashville, Tennessee to St. Louis... I don't remember, heh, for some reason didn't make any notes of which bus it was. Probably because we left 45 minutes late and I just wanted to get what sleep I could before having to go directly from Gateway Station to work in the morning


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## Swadian Hardcore

All right, #86170 is a 2011 X3-45, #86055 is a 2009 X3-45, #7035 is a 2001 G4500, and #6377 is a 2000 102DL3.

I agree that the X3-45 is a big "meh" compared to what some others have raved about it. The seats are bad, huh? And the side windows are placed too high in relation to the seats. JMO.

#7035 should've been quite nice if it was a Blue G4500. Those things have lots of legroom and the nice old seats with padding. Hopefully it didn't smell like plastic.

The new seats don't appear to have much padding, I looked under one that was folded up for a wheelchair and the wheelchair had gotten off. All I could see was a yellow plate on the bottom. No wonder it sags.

A member of GTE reports that they are considering buying National or Amaya Seating, he says Dave Leach is aware of the "miserable Premiers" and plans to rectify the problem in the future.

#6377 is your good old-fashioned Greyhound rebuilt with upgrades. Has the most recline and should have good legroom, but again, I haen't sat in a regular DL3 seat in a while, past few times I sat at the front with different legroom.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why'd you go to Knoxville? Could've just gone to Atlanta straight from Richmond on a Limited.


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## Misty.

Because that was about the 9:30 to 11 pm Eastern on Wednesday range, when I was still raging about missing the Crescent and wanting to get to Atlanta with an arrival still technically on Thursday with no deeper schedule specific knowledge. I know that I could have poked here for help, but I also wanted to solve things on my own and the solution I pulled off was a little messy with that local, but even an hour late it got Will and me into town on the time frame we needed. Heh.

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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, that Richmond-Knoxville was a through run to Dallas. Looks like Richmond-Dallas is getting tons of X3-45's instead of DL3's.

But from Washington you could have taken 3041 to Richmond at 11:25 PM, transferred to 1081 from New York, and gotten to Atlanta at 2:45 PM. Five hours faster.

That Knoxville-Atlanta came from Cincinnati. Probably an Atlanta-based G4500. Didn't you photograph that bus at Saint Louis a while ago?

So, this Greyhound with wall outlets is a rebuilt DL3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mistyolr/7028110369/. They didn't originally have them, so they had to install them. So does the Blue G, but the Blue G doesn't have that think window escape bar.

Apparently GLC #1130 has weird seating: http://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/f/fc/Greyhound_Canada_1130-a.jpg. It has those little headrests, never seen before on a Greyhound DL3.

Also of note, a MCI with windows open: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/4310377321/. "Just pull it closed when you're about to drive."

If Leach is seriously considering dumping the Premiers, that could change Greyhound's fleet comfort significantly.


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## Misty.

Hmmm... ! Aside from rearranging things period, I want to say that some part of that run was sold out - I remember that the run I ended up on was my second search.

Photographed at St. Louis? Admittedly always a possibility, though me remembering a specific bus number even a few hours later is not likely heh.

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## Swadian Hardcore

Well you or someone else probably photographed it, since I already have #7035 on my "Blue G4500" list.


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## Green Maned Lion

Swadian, you may know busses but you know absolutely nothing about seats. There are about 10 different ways to make a comfortable seat, and not all of them use gratuitous amounts of padding. In my experience, almost all good seats hail from Europe. American seats tend to trend too much towards cush and too little towards comfort, although I would say that the best mass-produced office chair is American (that being Steelcase). My experience is that the best car seats come from France, in fact. I am particularly fond of the seats used in the final run out of French production non-sport Peugeot 505s, the Citroen XM, and the Renault Safrane. After French, I'd tend to say Swedish, particularly the Volvo 240 and Volvo S70 non sport. Of the German brands, Mercedes has the best, until they switched to non-steel-sprung seats in the very late 90s/early 2000s- but unlike the Swedish and French seats, those wear out with age- they cease being comfortable after about 500,000 miles of average use. The only Japanese cars I've ever seen with comfortable seating were the first generation Lexus LS400 (a nearly total copy of the Mercedes steel sprung unit in the W124) and oddly the seats used in mid 1980s Nissan Stanzas (no, I don't know why!).

Now, whats interesting about this? All three seats use totally different construction methods.

French seats, or at least those three, use a form of open cell foam for the seat pad, supported by an impressively heavy amount of closed cell foam, encased by a heavy gauge (bizarrely so, actually) steel pad bottom- no spring, and the metal pad support is fixed in place. I'm sitting on a velour example of such a seat right now, pulled out of a wrecked 1987 Peugeot 505 SW7 diesel in Morrisville, PA. Its very comfortable, although I have never had seats harder to pull than that of a Peugeot 505 (I had to drill out the front screws with a diamond tipped bit, and sawzall the rear tracks- try sawzalling high grade heavy gauge French steel sometime), and constructing an interface for one with that construction is very hard- but its worth it because it is so comfortable. It uses a level style lumbar support adjustment, and a hole and tooth style lever recliner (I'd guess bus seats use the same)

Volvo's 240 seat was the final one of its kind. It uses fairly thin open cell foam as a pad, and holds it into place using a lateral metal lattice and spring framework. Its very comfortable, and probably the most comfortable seat one can easily obtain (you need a ratchet set, and a Volvo 240, which are still plentiful in junkyards). It uses a tension gear wheel rake adjustment, which is slow but precise with infinite adjustments. The lumbar adjustment works on a twist wheel with screw jack-type adjustment mechanism. Because of the hard headrest, it is advisable to find a headrest cover for it, of course- you almost can't find them, but they are interchangeable with Volvo 740/760 style headrests covers, which are easily obtained. You can find them covered in just about any material- wool broadcloth, poly velour, Swedish leather, vinyl, Connolly or my favorite, the Italian Poltrona Frua leather used on the 242c Bertone.

Volvos S70 uses a much thicker foam pad, but the same steel lattice supporting it over the seats heavy steel frame. The Volvo S70 (and 900-series, 800-series, and later) seat has heavy metal framing that actually serve as an integral part of the cars crash structure in side impacts (it has heavy gauge steel tubes that press on the door sill on one side and the tranny tunnel on the other). Their height adjustment mechanism is about as intricate as a cheap swiss watch (which is an intricate thing, by the by), and it uses the same lumbar and rake adjustment mechanisms. One of these days I am going to get around to figuring out how to use the seat heater. The airbag has always worried me, but I cut and cap the wires and hope for the best.

Mercedes, on the other hand, uses horsehair pads (the smell associated with old Mercedes-Benz cars is basically horsehair mixed with diesel) with a light duty metal support frame and vertical coil springs for support. The rake adjustment uses the same tension gear system as the Volvo, and it has no lumbar adjustment. The Lexus version uses an imitation rough wool pad instead of horsehair, I assume because horsehair was too expensive. They both have the problem of weakening springs and decay of the horsehair over time.

So I wouldn't assume that a seat is uncomfortable because of its basic construction.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You forgot about Amaya seats which are very comfortable Mexican seats. But Mexicans are not known for cars or buses, they just make great seats. They have input from Spanish FAINSA and have great lumbar support and padding. That's why Latin American buses have such a good reputation even though Dina makes a bad bus product.

American Seating is horrible in buses, their Premier LS is a torture device. Their only decent seat is the 2005.

I might not know about seat construction but I know a comfortable seat from a torture device.


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## railiner

Me too....All I know about seat construction is what "the seat of my pants, tell me".....


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## Green Maned Lion

If you have never sat in one of those cars, your comparison to Mexican seats is irrelevant. I can tell you that the manufacturing cost of a Volvo S70 leather heated seat was over a grand. Not retail- manufacturing. I have such a seat at my store as an office chair.

Obviously seat of the pants is the ONLY thing that matters in your opinion of a seats comfort. But my point was that my top three had totally different construction. Viewing said construction is irrelevant.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, it's a leather heated seat. A heated seat! Let's not care about construction for a second, let's just think about the end product. How about cloth non-heated regular seats? Amaya Patriot PT is great but it's not offered in the US much anymore, Torino G is the replacement and is the high-end bus seating for $739 base single, seat pair $1049.

If you're going to talk about real leather seats that Torino G price goes up and it's not even heated.

But the good thing is that it's made in Mexico so it isn't as expensive as European seats.

Right now, of the "big three" bus seat manufacturers, American is rock bottom, National is in the middle, Amaya is tops. American Seating has turned miserable to average, with the possible exception of the 2005. Now that Premier has a single yellow plate at the bottom with an airy padding and nothing else. That's why it sags and slides, and that's why it's uncomfortable. I don't know the details of how it was constructed, but it's a pain in the ar$e, literally, and that yellow plate must be part of it.

National 4210 should be all right, Amaya Torino G's probably the best right now, since Torino VIP doesn't have containment. A2-TEN probably better for touring but not good for sleeping as the wider headrest of the Torino G makes a difference.

Now Amtrak Coach seating, just a plain huge flat block. No curvature, really not that comfortable IMHO. The legroom is what makes the difference for Amtrak, not the seat curvature.


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## Green Maned Lion

I personally find Amtrak coach seats comfortable.

Amaya doesn't sell those seats for free. If they cost Amaya more than a couple of hundred to produce I would be shocked. According to a Volvo dealer I can still order a new seat for an S70, manual, heated, full leather for $3900. Let's remember a large part of the cost is the SIPS airbag.

That was the dealer I built 30 chairs for, they provided the seats.


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## rickycourtney

I find it a bit strange that we have such different experiences with the Premier seats. The ones I've sat on have all had very dense (not airy) foam padding on the seat cushion, making them hard as a rock and equally painful to sit on.

When it comes to high back seats (like the Torino G or the Patriot PT) versus standard seats with adjustable headrests (like the A2-TEN and the Torino Standard), I really think it's a matter of personal preference Personally, I like the adjustable headrests because I feel like they hold my head in a comfortable position when I sleep. Back when I was riding the Amtrak California buses every couple of weeks I would be able to to easily catch a nap on them. I know you might disagree with that, but again, it's personal preference.

But, I think you have these grandiose ideas about high back seats. In fact, you've described the Patriot PT as having "a pillow stuffed into the headrest." It doesn't. It's simply more of the same foam used in the backrest.

Lets be honest here, Greyhound does not use high back seats because some think they're more comfortable... they use them because there are less parts that can break compared to adjustable headrests, lowering the costs of long-term maintenance.

To that end I think you need to consider what has got to be Greyhound's most important consideration... cost. But without a price sheet from Amaya... we are left to just guess which seat would be cheaper.


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## Green Maned Lion

Greyhound is not a luxury bus operator. They are a line haul operator, generally defacto on many of their routes. Swadian, with due respect to you and other bus lovers, most people riding Greyhound are doing it because they don't really have other options. Driving is not an option for people who have trouble driving long distances, even if they have cars. Greyhound reputation for having the scum of society on it is perhaps graphic, but not conceptually wrong. The people who ride it are the people who can't afford anything else, usually. They are not the most respectable people in the world. I just don't subscribe that every poor and unreputable person is a bad one. But other people do.

Swad, you are a short guy, right? And I get the impression you are not particularly fat either, right? I'm not short, and I am fat. I weigh 375 lbs without shoes on (my 13 4E steel toed boots add a nice ten pounds to that). I wear a size 60 waist, a size 66 coat, and I am a 22/32 in dress shirts. Think about all these sizes, and how they differ from your own. I have been on buses where I can't slide my shoe into the space between seat bolsters. The only person I can sit next to on a 2-2 bus or train is my wife, who is 4'11" and 120 lbs. Partially because she sorta fits, and partially because we are intimate enough to do so- but avoid it if we don't need to.

What can we learn about this, except that I need a diet? Answer: a seat I'd find comfortable is quite possibly a totally different seat than one that you would. It needs to be very solidly built, or I find myself worried about sitting in it. It needs to be wide- 30" is about right, 28" barely tolerable. I have a fairly tall torso, and my neck is long enough that it doesn't seem that ill-proportioned at 22". I WANT an adjustable headrest because I have never seen a non adjustable one that I can actually lean back my head on. Because of the way my head is positioned relative to my back, I prefer headrests that are fairly far forward, or can adjust four ways. I am wide so heavy lateral support is generally uncomfortable. I have a bad back so I need substantial lumbar support. I mean there is a reason that I gave a try and building my own office chairs for a business once.


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## Swadian Hardcore

An Amaya dealer told me their most expensive seat is the Torino G right now, not the A2-TEN. Everything else is apparently Canada-only due to lack of containment. That includes all the Patriot versions, the Torino Standard, and the Torino VIP.

Right now A2-TEN is considered the "standard" seat while Torino G is considered the "luxury" seat.

Again, I find the Patriot PT to fit me perfectly while Amtrak's ASI seating is OK and Premier LS is a torture machine.

You find the Premier LS to be too firm, but I noticed at a rest stop that when I came back to my seat, the bottom had a huge dip in it. So, in the future, I will sit on a pillow. Seatmate Chris (Los Angeles-New York City) agrees that the back is not the problem, the bottom is the problem. I find the back to be similar to ASI seating which is OK to me.

Also, to me, seat width is useless above 17" and seat pitch is useless above 38". Again, I'm a small guy. Since I prefer to lean against the window instead of relaxing, that X3-45 window is a bit of a problem. Even when I'm passing between two high walls, I can still keep my eyes on the scenery, my regular travel buddy says I get almost hypnotized staring out.

Chris' next bus from Denver to NYC was finally a DL3, #6541 signed up for "SALINA, KS". I got no DL3's.

Now I just found out that Google Maps updated the Street View of Greyhound's Los Angeles Garage. Taken in June 2014. Check it out, you will find buttloads of D4505's, some retired or stored G4500's, some charter-only white DL3's, a few X3-45's, and a few rebuilt DL3's, no Blue G's.

Don't know where the rebuilt DL3's came from. Rare, rare, rare in the West.


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## rickycourtney

I'm a big guy... but not in the same way as GML.

I'm 6'3", 215 lbs, my shoulders are about 19" wide and I have fairly long legs.

To be frank, I'm miserable in the standard 17" wide airplane seats. Usually I end up touching the shoulder of the person next to me (which I always feel bad about.) I also find seat pitch below 33" to be uncomfortable for me. 33" is just enough room for me to bend my legs slightly and put them under the seat ahead of me. At 31" I'm stuck with my knees bent at a 90 degree angle for the duration of the flight.

Standard motorcoach seats are 40" wide per pair (including armrest width). That's cozy for me but it's tolerable for a short ride. I also appreciate the 36" pitch on Greyhound.

But this is what I was trying to explain earlier... I don't see the benefit to a "premium seating" product that doesn't increase the seat width. Despite United Airlines reducing seat pitch to 31" in Economy... I won't pay to upgrade to Economy Plus because I'm still going to be uncomfortably close to the person next to me. Likewise, if BoltBus increased legroom, I wouldn't pay extra for those seats... but give me an extra 4" of seat width and I'd be on that in a second.

But I guess you wouldn't see the value in that.


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## railiner

Because buses cannot get any wider, account legal restrictions based on roadway limitation, the only way to get a wider bus seat would be to eliminate one of the four rows. That would take away 25% of the seats. So fares would have to be increased accordingly to compensate. There are only a very small number of buslines that do that, and their fares are usuallly a lot more than standard bus fares. You might be willing to pay that, but most bus passenger's aren't, unfortunately.....

I was thinking that perhaps they could have a seating plan with a couple of rows of "premium, two and one seats" for an extra fare, but it would cause a problem for the driver, to prevent those with standard tickets from grabbing those seats ahead of those who paid extra for them....so it would only be practicle if the entire bus was two and one.....


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## rickycourtney

Right. While I don't mind spending that extra money, I don't see Greyhound's base customers wanting to pay more for seats. It's definitely something that would only work on high-traffic corridors with trip times of under 4 hours. I imagine it would be a good extension of the BoltBus brand.

I think a layout with a few rows of 2-1 seating could work. Thanks to the iPhone scanners, BoltBus drivers already have a ticket manifest and passengers are already used to boarding in groups. You would just pre-board the premium passengers before the regular passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

We were discussing airline legroom and Premium Economy on another thread. The big problem with airlines seems to be legroom, not seat width. So, I don't know, but anyway.....

I took a look at Red Coach as an example. First thing I noticed is that they offer Business and First Class. Surprisingly, the Business Class has regular 2-2 seating, just with extra legroom. A sample fare from Miami to Orlando runs $36. The First Class had 2-1 seating, but runs $61. That isn't a small difference at all.

Now, why is that? I decided to take a look at the seating. Patriot PT (http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/ES/productos/asientos_foraneos/patriot_pt/) is 861 cm long, 1027.5 cm wide. Leito VII (http://www.amaya-astron.com.mx/ES/productos/asientos_foraneos/leito_vii/), their most expensive 2-1 seat, is 1123 cm long, and 1323 cm wide.

So, as you can see, Patriot PT takes less space overall. One can't just widen the seat without increasing legroom, because the wider seats are also longer, meaning your legroom would go down unless you increased the seat pitch. This is why one doesn't simply charge 33.3% extra for a 2-1 over 2-2, it ends up being 80% extra, though presumably the Red Coach First Class also offers other perks over "Business". Though their Business is more like Premium Economy, and frankly, not really worth it over Greyhound.

Something that Red Arrow Motorcoach has is this: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/pwt/ra_731int.jpg. They put regular seating into that 1997 H3-45, but left out a column for extra "width" even though the seat is not wider. This means there's no need to increased seat pitch to compensate for increased seat length.

One of the ASI seating problems is that their seat are a bit too long and thick while not curved at all, meaning that are not an efficient use of space and weight. Also, they have a metal bar along the bottom rear, so a ASI with 41" pitch feels like a Patriot PT with 38" pitch (but not 36").

Now I see why 2-1 seating is always placed in Prevosts instead of MCI's. All MCI's have a slightly-sloping aisle segment at the front. This aisle is centered, so 2-1 seating cannot be put at the front of a MCI. MCI's also have theater-tiered seating at the front for better viewing, but the tiers are set too small to accommodate a 2-1 seat. If one wanted a 2-1 section on MCI, that section would have to be at the back, again, not desirable. So all these 2-1 buses are Prevost's, being made with motorhomes in mind, they have fully-flat floors, no theater tiers, no sloping aisle.

However, I find MCI's sloping aisle to be more convenient when moving around, especially when getting off, as one often does not expect the aisle to suddenly drop off in a "L" step before the entry stairway.

Also interesting is this J4500 Sleeper: http://www.arrowstagelines.com/fleet/fleet-photo-gallery/attachment/1299/.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Some interesting facts I dug up:

MCI introduced multiplexed electronics in the E4500 in 2004. Then the D4505 in 2010 and the J4500 in 2012. So the 102DL3 never mad multiplex.

Yet another mechanic has complained about maintaining multiplex and IFS.

Drivers say the IFS makes handling good but is not easy to maintain.

MCI has introduced IFS in the 2015 model year J4500.

Derivers say the J and E offer poor line-of-sight compared to the D.

The X3-45 side windows are actually GMC 1960s windshields turned on their sides. That was first done with the Prevost Prestige in 1968, the X3-45 still has the same high windows that curve into the roof. I still think the X3-45 need raised seats to match the windows better: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14957462160/. That "up there" window segment is too high for most scenery, even Berthoud Pass.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Old Greyhound timetable from 1984:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969816680/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15153515621/sizes/h/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15153517141/sizes/h/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969918648/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969765129/sizes/h/


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now I see why 2-1 seating is always placed in Prevosts instead of MCI's. All MCI's have a slightly-sloping aisle segment at the front. This aisle is centered, so 2-1 seating cannot be put at the front of a MCI. MCI's also have theater-tiered seating at the front for better viewing, but the tiers are set too small to accommodate a 2-1 seat. If one wanted a 2-1 section on MCI, that section would have to be at the back, again, not desirable. So all these 2-1 buses are Prevost's, being made with motorhomes in mind, they have fully-flat floors, no theater tiers, no sloping aisle.


Not quite always....

The original fleet of LimoLiner were J4500's with 28 seats in a two-and-one configuration. I never saw the inside, to see how they accomplished that.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I thought they used E4500's. I think they are replacing the E4500's with H3-45's?

Maybe they ordered the E4500C conversion model which might have no theater seating at the back.


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## railiner

You may be correct....E4500 or 102EL-3's or whatever....I thought they were the same as the J's as far as the interior config....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, you know, I saw this: http://www.busforsale.com/buses/photos/limoliner1/thumb/thumb_limoliner15.jpg.

Maybe they had some J4500's as well.

Yeah, I can't understand how they did that interior.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Old Greyhound timetable from 1984:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969816680/sizes/l
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15153515621/sizes/h/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15153517141/sizes/h/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969918648/sizes/l
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14969765129/sizes/h/


Great stuff....that was when the line was still part of the old Greyhound Corporation, headquartered in Phoenix. They knew how to make and distribute timetables back then

And they still had most of their extensive route system, although by that time, Golden Gate had taken over their Marin County, SamTrans had taken over their Peninsula, and AC Transit had taken over their Contra-Costa Commuter operations.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I was happy to see that 1308 and 1314 ran back then much as it does today, except they now start from Reno and head east instead of from San Francisco. I wonder if those two were transcontinental back in the way, going all the way to New York, right after Interstate 80 had been completed.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, you know, I saw this: http://www.busforsale.com/buses/photos/limoliner1/thumb/thumb_limoliner15.jpg.
> 
> Maybe they had some J4500's as well.
> 
> Yeah, I can't understand how they did that interior.


Yup....that's an 'E', alright....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was happy to see that 1308 and 1314 ran back then much as it does today, except they now start from Reno and head east instead of from San Francisco. I wonder if those two were transcontinental back in the way, going all the way to New York, right after Interstate 80 had been completed.I


When I moved from Denver back to NYC in 1989, I had to get rid of most of my Russell's Guides, except for a few older ones I saved. And I did not start collecting them again until 1994, so there is a large gap in what I have. Back in 1971, at the time of the completion of most of I-80, the trips that ran between Chicago and the west coast were in the 1100-1200, and later, 1300 series. The few that ran all the way from coast to coast were numbered in the 500 series. Not sure of when that changed....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh dang, then all those 1200's 1300's in Greyhound's System Timetable must be ex-Transcons. But 1682/1683 are the current New York City-Los Angeles Transcon returns. Those are the only ones currently running, there was another pair in the summer schedule which has just ended.

Currently the 1100's are no longer used for east-west schedules and the 1600's appear to be used for east-west skeds east of the Mississippi. The 1400's are used for the Los Angeles-Vancouver corridor which could use some extra capacity giving that it's always closing online bookings two hours before departure at high bucket.

Well, tomorrow's 1436 is already sold out. It's always that overnight getting packed to the last seat. Long story short, Greyhound is giving the short end of the stick to Seattle again, being that the summer-only SEA-VAN and SEA-PUT skeds are no longer running. So south of Portland has more frequencies than north of Portland, even though the White G's have been mostly ousted in favor of this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busdudedotcom/15140356286/in/photostream/.

Can't understand the Bolt D4505 at the Greyhound Portland gate.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Can't understand the Bolt D4505 at the Greyhound Portland gate.


Greyhound keeps the BoltBus units at the Portland station during layovers. I would think that they also get light servicing there too (garbage cans emptied, floors swept).
I spotted buses of all kinds at the Portland station during my last trip.







Totally off topic, but while out on a run on Friday, I spotted this in front of the Space Needle: 


That's a Prevost Le Mirage XL, so it's at *least* 20 years old (might be even older). Looked well maintained and the engine sounded great (no rattles or squeaks).


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## tp49

Anyone know how often they service the bathrooms on Bolt? I ask because last week I took Bolt from Vancouver to Seattle and the bathroom looked like the tank hadn't been emptied in a couple of days. I'm glad I was sitting closer to the front than the back because the odor was noticeable several rows before you got to the lav.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I know Greyhound SD buses get lavatory tanks emptied every day and Greyhound LD buses get tanks emptied every 10-14 hours, at every major stop along the route.

Looking at Ricky's photo from two months ago, it seems the end of the summer schedule means less DL3's and Blue G's at Portland, more D4505's. That's obviously not a good thing since the D4505's have terrible, horrible, miserable, and painful seating.

The extra Blue G's probably ran from Seattle, but the off-season suspension of SEA-PUT schedules means that everything is a through run from Los Angeles, a garage teeming with D4505's. The DL3's probably ran from DEN, but most PUT-DEN runs I saw in DEN were D4505's along with a single Blue G, #7199. That Greyhound Prevost could have come from DEN or LAD, they repainted some of the Americanos X3-45's with Greyhound's livery, so it's hard to see a difference now. Many Americanos units in LAD probably, DL3's, D4505's and X3-45's

According to Google Street View taken June 2014, Americanos' Viaggio fleet is parked in a long line at the Los Angeles Garage getting parted out, joined by some White G4500's. If you the thought G4500's were bad, well the Viaggio is probably worse!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Blue G video found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFzQNVcBYlM.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That could be a LeMirage, not a LeMirage XL. The XL was the 102-inch version of the LeMirage. Then the XL-45 was the 45-foot 102-inch version which is pretty much the same as the current X3-45 except with a shorter wheelbase.

I think XL-II is a XL-45 with frameless windows and the X3-45 is a XL-II with IFS and a longer wheelbase.


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## railiner

I believe the LeMirage is a 40 footer. The LeMirage XL (as in extra length), is a 45 footer. Not sure if the original LeMirage was offered as both a 96" and a 102", or not...

The XL II (which is in our fleet), is simply a modernized LeMirage XL...besides the frameless windows, a new front and rear design, as well as interior and dash. The XL II does have IFS, which partially accounts for its excellent ride and handling. The X3-45 looks very much like the XL II, except for the newer light's, extended wheelbase, and relocation

of the battery and other componentry to make it possible to 'slide back' the rear axle's.

*

Agree on the Marcopolo Viaggio, built by DINA.....those had a huge front overhang. We would see some of them come into The Port on holiday's, when they were chartered to supplement Greyhound and Peter Pan's fleet. More than one of their driver's hit the barrier at the gate, because the front wheels did not reach the curb or wheel stop before the bumper hit the barrier....


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## Swadian Hardcore

According to Prevost History: http://motorhome.prevostcar.com/heritage/history-highlights.

The LeMirage XL was introduced in 1984 as a 102-inch version of the LeMirage. The XL-45 Entertainer (motorhome) was introduced in 1992 as a 45-foot-long coach and the XL-45 passenger version introduced in 1995.

This is the XL-45 which looks really awkward IMO: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/pwt/diversified_1445.jpg.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MCI says their J4500 can get 10.27 mpg on the flat at 50 mph: http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2014/02/mci-unveils-vehicle-enhancements-at-uma.aspx.

That would mean an unprecedented 554.58 P-MPG.

Their own "Go Green, Go Coach, Go MCI" website says averages are about 6.5 mpg highway, which would be 351 P-MPG.

The J4500 is currently available with Detroit 13 while the D's are not, and the Cummins ISX12 has been tested to be a fuel guzzler, so right now a D4000 probably gets the same MPG as the J4500, but at lower P-MPG due to less seating capacity.

The H3-45 has curb weight 1,000 pounds more than the J4500 and carries two more passengers, but the gross weight in 1,000 pounds less. No wonder people are ordering the J4500 so much. Meanwhile, the X3-45 weighs the same as the H3-45 and more than the J4500 at less gross weight. But the X3-45 gets a great average of 6.85 MPG with the Volvo D13.

Right now it's no wonder the J4500 is the bestseller, if they cost the same as the D or X, considering the J has high gross weight compared to curb weight (meaning high payload) and gets good MPG, plus offering high luggage capacity and large parcel racks that are unhindered by the rear-mounted wheelchair lift, something not offered in the D, X, or even the expensive H.

The J has the same parcel racks as the E which is 150 cubic feet compared to 107 in the H3-45 or 109 in the D4505. We're talking a near-50% increase in overhead storage: http://www.mcicoach.com/luxury-coaches/j4500/data1/images/d_mci_j4500_parcel_racks.jpg.

They have the same racks as the E4500 and similar to the G4500: http://tourwestamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/MCI1.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

I didn't snap an unclose picture of the nameplate but it was definitely a LeMirage XL.

So much for that theory that Prevost's aren't built solidly.


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## railiner

Irrelevant but interesting, perhaps....the early H3-41's in our fleet that had wheelchair lifts, had them in the rear. The lift was stored inside the coach, permanently reducing the seating capacity by four seats. Of course, the baggage bays were not affected, yielding huge baggage capacity relative to the seating capacity....


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## rickycourtney

John- I think you're reading too much into the MPG numbers. The difference between 6.5 vs 6.85 MPG is negligible. In fact a driver with a lead-foot could easily wipe out the fuel savings.

Just a wild theory here on why the J4500 is so popular... as I see it, the group that is buying the most motorcoaches these days are charter operators who want a decently built coach, with lots of curb appeal, at the lowest possible price. Most of these companies will only run the coaches for 5-10 years or so before they are sold. They don't see the point to rebuilding an old coach, because the curb appeal is gone.

The J4500 does just that...

It's not built to take as much punishment as the D4505, but it probably won't be on the road 24/7/365.

It has more aggressive fiberglass exterior facia and interior appointments to impress customers.

The price point is about the same as the D4505.

That's also why VanHool is so popular. They make a great looking product (very euro-chic), with lots of bells and whistles, at a bargain-basement price. Also, new VanHools are reliable enough, it's when they age that they start to fall apart, but that doesn't matter to a company that just wants to dump the bus after 5 years (although the resale value must suck).

That's compared to Greyhound who wants a coach that's rugged and reliable, while the design is very much "form follows function." Any bells and whistles on Greyhound's buses come from designs that have been throughly proven on buses like the J4500.


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## Caesar La Rock

Depending on where you live, the resale value of these motorcoaches from charter companies could be high. You have to see how many old T945s and T2145s I've seen around here. I know Mears still has T2145s and C2045s with Series 60 engines. Both are well past 10 years old (I think 12-16 years old, not sure, but they're old buses nonetheless).


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## Swadian Hardcore

That LeMirage XL was built in 1980s when the disappointing modern buses didn't even exist so it's a moot point.

Yeah, the difference between 6.5 MPG and 6.85 MPG is small, but the difference between the D4505's crappy 5.83 MPG and the old D4500's 6.79 MPG is pretty darn big. Those are figures from the same test. And drivers who've driven both say the D4505 "loses 1 MPG over the DL3 but gains it back with an EGR delete".

I think Greyhound should move the X3-45's to the West and the D4505's to the east because the X3-45's do better with EGR than the D4505's. Then they can delete the EGR on the D4505's because they wouldn't be needed for running in the East. Better efficiency over the whole fleet.

Meanwhile, the J4500 gets better fuel economy than the D4505 due to being available with the DD13 engine which is not available in the D4505.

Burlington Trailways was using the D4505 for line-haul but now they are using J4500's and X3-45's. Apparently those two coaches are not that different in the bottom line. They have similar prices AFAIK.

I think companies could try rebuilding the 102EL3 to retain curb appeal without buying new replacements.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I think Greyhound should move the X3-45's to the West and the D4505's to the east because the X3-45's do better with EGR than the D4505's. Then they can delete the EGR on the D4505's because they wouldn't be needed for running in the East. Better efficiency over the whole fleet.


While I wouldn't mind seeing more X3-45's on the west coast... Greyhound can't simply "delete" the EGR (or the DPF or SCR) from the D4505, that would be illegal. You aren't allowed to remove emissions reductions equipment from engines where it's required.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I think companies could try rebuilding the 102EL3 to retain curb appeal without buying new replacements.


Oh please, you could never rebuild a 13+ year old bus to have the same curb appeal as a brand new bus. Plus, there wouldn't be enough demand for a company to create the fiberglass fascia panels for the 102EL3 (although there could be a demand for the J4500).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Illegal? So this is illegal? http://diesel-power-solutions.myshopify.com/products/detroit-diesel-series-60-egr-delete-performance-module.

Yes, EGR is required in California, but if they moved the D4505's to the East and the X3-45's to the west, the D4505 would no longer have to operate in California, and the EGR delete would be allowed.

Edit: These truckers are doing the same thing and not getting arrested after posting results online: http://mhhauto.com/Thread-EGR-Bypass-trick-to-boost-mode-for-60-series-14-liter-2006-motor.


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## rickycourtney

You talked about "deleting" the EGR system. I read that to mean, go in and remove the parts that make EGR function.

Look I'm not a legal expert... but to my understanding, it's illegal to disable any emissions control system.

The device you're showing exists in a sort of legal grey area. It leaves the EGR parts in place but uses a discreet device to disable the system. That means that it's hard for an officer to detect and it's easily disabled for emissions testing. It's also legal to sell because EGR systems aren't required for off-road and farm vehicles.

Come on, John. If these thing were legal, don't you think Greyhound would have one on every bus??


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## Swadian Hardcore

No, they won't have one on every bus because they need to run buses in California. But if they restricted the D4505's from entering California, they could do that. And if truckers do it and proudly post it on the Internet, how come it is illegal? The EPA didn't require every bus on the road to have EGR, there's no law saying that AFAIK.

Some bus owners also said they "deleted" the EGR in order to gain MPG.

Or maybe there should be an official verdict on the EGR delete because the delete does mean more MPG and higher driving performance.

Perhaps it could be legal under certain circumstances.

But I highly doubt it's plain illegal considering how many people go around saying "I deleted the EGR and got great performance!"

People don't go around saying they removed the speed governor which is illegal but I'm sure some people do it anyway.


----------



## rickycourtney

John... go back and reread my original post. I answered most of your questions.

One more thing, I don't think you fully understand the EPA emissions standards versus California emissions standards.

EPA regulations got stricter for engines in 2004 (EGR), 2007 (EGR+DPF) and again in 2010 (EGR+DPF+SCR). Also to be clear, the EPA mandated a certain level of emissions reductions, it did not not mandate those technologies, that's just how most engine manufacturers chose to meet the required level of emissions reductions. All trucks/buses *nationwide* have to comply with the applicable EPA emissions reduction requirements for their *model year.*

California went one step further and as of 2014, requires that nearly all trucks and buses operated in the state have a DPF, *regardless of their model year.*

At the moment, California has *no additional requirements* over the EPA requirements in regards to EGR and SCR.

So in summary, as long as they have a DPF, *any* Greyhound bus can operate in California.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

So perhaps the EGR delete kit still uses the DPF and torque curve methods to reduce emissions.

I read CA Emissions Standards: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/onrdiesel.htm.

They say nothing about DPF's, just that everything must have 2010 model year engines or equivalent.


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## rickycourtney

Here's a better fact sheet on CA emissions standards: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents/FSRegSum.pdf


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, but that still doesn't explain why Greyhound should not suppress the D4505's inefficient EGR with the delete kit and then move the units to the east, filling in the X3-45's current spot. The X3-45's more efficient EGR would be more suited in the West.

Meanwhile, companies are still operating the 102EL3 in revenue service without even rebuilding them, and I don't see why they lack curb appeal. They look very similar to the current J4500's. And Brewster does get excellent passenger reviews, they are 4.5/5.0 on TripAdvisor, equal to the Rocky Mountaineer.

Brewster EL3 #278: http://www.busdrawings.com/coach/brewster/102el3/120709-3405brewster278.jpg

#279 in the Rockies: http://www.busdrawings.com/coach/brewster/102el3/279.jpg

#286: http://www.busdrawings.com/coach/brewster/102el3/080907-6229brewster286.jpg

#286 again: http://www.busdrawings.com/coach/brewster/102el3/201011-1450brewster286.jpg

They have National Seating 4210.

Brewster basically offers "scheduled tours" in the Canada Rockies. It's like line-haul for tourists in a vacation package.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OK, but that still doesn't explain why Greyhound should not suppress the D4505's inefficient EGR with the delete kit and then move the units to the east, filling in the X3-45's current spot. The X3-45's more efficient EGR would be more suited in the West.


Because again it's ILLEGAL... NATIONWIDE!!!
This is the warning and disclaimer on EGR delete kit from a more reputable dealer than the one you found:



> WARNING REGARDING EMISSIONS LAWS:
> 
> NOT LEGAL FOR SALE OR USE ON POLLUTION-CONTROLLED MOTOR VEHICLES ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES. LEGAL ONLY FOR OFF-ROAD COMPETITION RACING VEHICLES AND CANNOT BE USED ON VEHICLES THAT ARE OPERATED ON PUBLIC STREETS, ROADS OR HIGHWAYS.
> 
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> 1) This product may NEVER be installed on a vehicle registered for highway or public street use.
> 
> 2) By installing this product onto your vehicle, you assume all risk and liability associated with its use.
> 
> 3) It is your responsibility to make sure your vehicle complies with all federal, state, and local emissions laws. Federal and many state and local laws prohibit the removal, modification or rendering inoperative of any part of the design affecting emissions or safety on motor vehicles used on a public street or highway. Violation may result in a fine of up to $32,500 per vehicle (or possibly higher depending on changes in the law). All civil penalties and fines for removing your vehicles emissions equipment are the sole responsibility of the end user.
> 
> 4) Due to its high performance nature, this product may void vehicle manufacturers warranty.
> 
> 5) Sinister Mfg Company, Inc. is not responsible for misuse of its products. By installing this product, you release Sinister Mfg Company, Inc. of any and all liability associated with its use.
> 
> 6) No other applications besides off-road competition racing use are intended or implied. Depending on where you live, additional restrictions may apply. Check all applicable laws before installing or using!
> 
> 7) Not available for sale or use in the state of California, Colorado and Arizona.


See it for yourself: http://www.mkmcustoms.com/dodge67lcumminsegrvalvecoolerdeletekit.aspx
Most reputable dealers have a very similar warning and disclaimer on their EGR delete kits.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well there was a mention of "boost mode" and truckers say it can simply be activated and constantly driven in boost mode to bypass EGR. Even that is illegal? Then hundreds of truckers would have been apprehended already.

I suspect Greyhound may already be driving in 100% boost mode to "not use" EGR.

They're not disassembling the EGR, they're bypassing the EGR.

Anyways, I can't see your theory about charter operators running coaches for a few years and then getting rid of them. Those are only the "half-ar$e" operators that run units under warranty and then sell the units when the warranty expires. Most reputable operators, like Brewster, keep using their older coaches and keep them well-maintained. But charter coaches still don't need the durability of a line-hauler because they don't run that many miles per year.

And the EL3 doesn't need a rebuild to boast high curb appeal.


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## Green Maned Lion

Just because truckers love breaking rules- ever sat at a truck stop counter? They can't shut up about it- doesn't mean they are intelligent about it.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well there was a mention of "boost mode" and truckers say it can simply be activated and constantly driven in boost mode to bypass EGR. Even that is illegal? Then hundreds of truckers would have been apprehended already.
> 
> I suspect Greyhound may already be driving in 100% boost mode to "not use" EGR.
> 
> They're not disassembling the EGR, they're bypassing the EGR.


*Sigh*

John, you're beating a dead horse.

Once again from my trusty legal disclaimer:



> "Federal and many state and local laws prohibit the removal, modification or rendering inoperative of any part of the design affecting emissions or safety on motor vehicles used on a public street or highway. Violation may result in a fine of up to $32,500 per vehicle."


Driving in 100% "boost mode" would require *modification* of the engine's computer system and would *render inoperative* (a fancy legalese way of saying bypass) the emissions control system and is therefore prohibited under federal law.

Sure you could do it -and I would venture to guess that some truckers do- but it's illegal and if you're caught, there's a huge fine.

I highly doubt that Greyhound is driving in 100% boost mode. If just one bus was caught with the modification and the rest of the fleet was inspected, Greyhound could be fined up to $21,320,000 ($32,500 fine x 656 EPA 2004+ compliant buses). It's just not worth it to save a few bucks at the pump.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyways, I can't see your theory about charter operators running coaches for a few years and then getting rid of them. Those are only the "half-ar$e" operators that run units under warranty and then sell the units when the warranty expires. Most reputable operators, like Brewster, keep using their older coaches and keep them well-maintained. But charter coaches still don't need the durability of a line-hauler because they don't run that many miles per year.
> 
> And the EL3 doesn't need a rebuild to boast high curb appeal.


Brewster isn't exactly representative of most of the small charter operators out there and It's not exactly a fair fight when you throw down the E series.

Yes, until the latest facelift, the J copied the look of the E. But the E was a very expensive coach and I question how many charter operators were buying them (MCI discontinued it after all).

Here's a better example, a 2000 Van Hool T2100 (which again, was popular with charter operators)... tell me that still has a lot of curb appeal.

Another example, I personally love the look of the current H3-45, but the pre-2002 version lacks curb appeal today.


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, then Detroit 13 with SCR for the win.

True, the new J4500's look better than those Van Hool T2100's and H3-45's, but even the old J4500 was still in production until 2012, and a 2012 J4500 has the same look as the 2001 J4500's. The 102EL3's were supposed to look better than the J4500's, with that extra band of glass over the windshield.

Not to mention the EL3 had ECAS, spiral staircase, power blinds all that stuff. Expensive, yeah, but that older coach appealing enough to attract passengers even today, and Brewster gets excellent reviews.

So I guess it's more about the actual bus then about the year. Also shows the 102EL3 isn't bad on durability and presumably not the J4500 either.


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## railiner

I don't think there is enough of a difference for the average 'non-fan' to even notice in all those comparison's, provided the older model is cosmetically 'new'....

If you want to really see "curb appeal"....I would put a sixty year old PD-4501 in mint condition against any bus on the road today....offer a side by side choice for passenger's to board, and......well just let's say, don't bet against the Scenicruiser....


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## rickycourtney

Personally I thought the design of the J4500/E4500 was getting pretty out of date by 2012/2013

It was a really sharp look in 1997 when it was introduced, but it was starting to show it's age in the last few years.

Changing subjects, while I enjoyed my discount for signing up... I wish Road Rewards and Bolt Rewards were unified. I understand why Greyhound wanted to keep the brands separate, but if Greyhound is improving, why not try to get Bolt customers to give them a try?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't why the EL3 doesn't look modern enough to match a new J4500, but OK, everyone thinks differently. Of course the Scenicruiser will be #1 in curb appeal for a long, long time.

Greyhound can't merge Bolt and Greyhound, they want Bolt to stay undercover and Greyhound still has at least 200,000 haters.

Plus, people seem to complain about Greyhound for the least of problems. Case in point:

"My wife and I paid for tickets from Cleveland to Niagara Falls, only to have the printer 'failed' at my nephew's place in Cleveland. A photo of the ticket clearly showing the number etc, was totally ignored by Greyhound and we were charged another fare. VERY UNFAIR in fact! The next day we were allowed to get into my email and print off the Toronto to Detroit tickets, which was a very great relief.

FAIR WARNING to all concerned."-John Doyle (Tramway_John/Flickr)

That was a complete direct copy of the complaint. Let's see here, you tried to print out your tickets at your nephew's place, but your nephew's printer failed. You took a photo of the ticket, but how did you take a photo without printing out the ticket? Yeah, you probably took a photo of the computer screen with the ticket file showing in it. Something that anyone can photoshop, and that photo would have meant nothing to Greyhound. Then of course, you had to buy another ticket and print it off your e-mail the next day.

Then why didn't you (he, John Doyle) get into his e-mail and simply print out the old ticket which would have also been in a e-mail sent on an attached PDF file?

See what I'm talking about? Why did this guy buy another ticket and print it off his e-mail? He should have had the original ticket in his e-mail. Why didn't he go to library when his nephew's printer failed? Oh, maybe he deleted the e-mail.


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## railiner

Imagine a "new Scenicruiser".....45.5 feet long, 102" wide, and 12 feet, 2" tall, built to the same proportion's as the Raymond Loewy styled original....think it would "sell"?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, it probably would sell, and sell very well at that. Heck, Greyhound might buy it, it would prove their reputation so much!

Here's a Scenicruiser in 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/6889423779/in/set-72157625959347317.

Heck, here's a whole album of them: http://norcalbusfans.jalbum.net/NorCal%20Bus%20Fans%20Photo%20Archives/Greyhound/Greyhound%20USA/GMC%20PD4501/index.html.

And one at a museum: http://www.pacbus.org/pbmnews/news06.shtml.

Edit: They look like they had weird luggage hatches that opened one part up and one part down.

OK now who wants this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6014733395/sizes/l.

The MCI MC-6, one of the first 102-inch coaches. Three-step passenger deck. Extend it 5 feet and it would be amazing.


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## rickycourtney

I think that customer was referring to Greyhounds stupid print at home ticket policy. They've got to be the only major carrier in the US that sells tickets online but doesn't accept tickets on smartphones, doesn't offer kiosks where customers can print their boarding passes and doesn't allow agents to look up tickets and reprint them.

Sounds like the customer had trouble printing, went to the station without and was told that they would have to purchase another ticket (per Greyhounds policy).

That's not fair to label this person a Greyhound "hater". They are just someone who encountered bad corporate policy and customer service and was rightly frustrated.

Thankfully this is one of the things that Greyhound is addressing with eticketing, but it's a change that's LONG, LONG overdue.


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## Caesar La Rock

They also had the Eagle Model 07, which was also a 102 inch wide. Picture is not mine. I think Prevost's Champion and Prestige also came with an option for 102.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A few things wrong here. Greyhound actually does have ticket kiosks at major stations, where one can print out Will Call tickets. Also, if the customer had trouble printing the ticket from his e-mail, why didn't he go to the library and print it out there?

They wouldn't have to purchase another ticket, as the original ticket would have been saved in his e-mail on a PDF attachment. That is how Greyhound sends Print at Home tickets.

Also, a photo is no evidence. Greyhound actually allows their agents to look up a ticket and print them at the terminal, given that the passenger looks up his original ticket PDF file and displays it to the agent along with ID and credit card. That's because you failed to print the PDF file at home.

But instead of looking up the PDF file, John Doyle decided to show the agent a photo of his tickets.

With Will Call tickets, you only need to display credit card.


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## Green Maned Lion

Swad, I think you don't understand Greyhound's problems, because your preferences are often perpendicular to the average person. Greyhound has three problems: a demand problem, an image problem, and a management problem, and especially a financial problem.

Demand problem: The fact of the matter is, there is not much demand for bus travel outside a very few select corridors. Why? People drive or fly. You mention that this bus or that bus are nearly full or even sometimes sell out. Great. Swadian, Greyhound has a mere 1200 busses. Assuming a likely generous seat utilization assumption of one person per day, Greyhound carries at most about... what? 48,000 passengers a day? Amtrak's pathetic little fleet carries nearly 90,000 people a day. And the airlines? They carry nearly 3 MILLION people a day. Greyhound, the largest gorilla in the room of intercity bus transit, essentially a monopoly, has a full capacity to carry about 1.3% of the airlines. So seriously, there is very little demand for intercity bus, and while it is increasing, you'd need it to increase an order of magnitude to even receive the byline "relevant".

Image problem: Forget about the G4500s. They weren't in service in the early 80's when Steve Martin and John Candy lampooned the heck out of intercity busses. Greyhound and even National Trailways had an image problem even then. People think that busses are ridden by the lowest order of Americans. And sorry, John, while not everybody who rides Greyhound fits that description, the vast majority of them do. And people believe that solidly, and stubbornly, even if it wasn't true. I'm a staunch transit advocate, not rail transit, all types, and *I* believe it. They don't like busses, they don't like Greyhound, and there is very little other than a total name change, a massive luxurying up, and a brand new fleet of busses from a known luxury brand (say, Volvo or Mercedes) that is going to change that. Ever.

Management problem: You mentioned the new timetable in the other thread. The management at Greyhound let a map go out on their watch that looks like it was put together by a bunch of idiots who don't even know state capitals. For god sakes. If an employee of mine at my company did something that unprofessional, I wouldn't fire them. First, I would flog them. And then I would have them drawn and quartered. And then I would fire them. And then I would fire the moron who hired them, which would probably be me, regrettably. I would have my wife run my business if I ever hired somebody that stupid and gave them a job to do of that public a nature. Because I would obviously be almost as stupid. Nuff said.

Financial problem: Look at their bus fleet. They are "rebuilding" a crappy bus that has a terrible reputation, and abysmal MTBF. They are not replacing it. Despite the fact that when it comes to intercity bus curb appeal is practically everything. Why are they doing this? Not because the G4500 is a good bus, trust me. And they are not expanding their fleet despite what all you bus "experts" keep telling me is a hugely tight fleet. Why? BECAUSE THEY CAN NEITHER PAY FOR THE BUSSES IN CASH, NOR GET A CREDIT LINE TO FINANCE THEM! They have a huge financial problem. They've been having it for decades.

Greyhound's likelihood to be in business in 10 years time is quite frankly lower than the chance of having the Long Distance trains running. Bad finances, bad image, low demand, and a bunch of intellectually disabled wasps running the bloody thing. Not a chance in hell.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I wouldn't agree, but I don't have the time to argue anymore.


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## Bob Dylan

I think the future of buses is things like Megs Bus and Bolt( Greyhound) but honestly don't see how they can make money with what they charge,hence they won't stay in busines since the Government won't bail them out and only Gamblers and Governments continue to pour money down a rat hole!!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, $10-20 Seattle-Vancouver doesn't sound like a money loser to me. The X3-45 that Bolt uses gets an average 342.5 PMPG when filled to 50 passengers. That $1 ticket is only for attention.

Right now Greyhound probably makes more than Bolt because they don't charge such low fares. And Greyhound ridership is going up and up so I don't see any reason why they would go bankrupt anytime soon.

Even if they depend on the poor to make money, it's better than not making money. And the poor is usually not as mean as the rich.


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## Green Maned Lion

Greyhound doesn't make money, at least in the US. According to FirstGroup last year they lost $350k on revenues of $560 million. So they broke even.

With margins like that you'd think they were in retail or something.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, according to First Group's Annual Report and Accounts 2014 (http://www.firstgroupplc.com/~/media/Files/F/Firstgroup-Plc/indexed-pdfs/firstgroup-annual-report-2014.pdf), Greyhound accounted for 9% of First's revenue, but 16% of their profits.

Greyhound has one of First's highest profit margins, at 7.4%, on part with First Transit, even though Greyhound has only 7,500 employees, the lowest of First's divisions, and only 7% of total First employees.

Of Greyhound's revenue, passengers accounted for 80%, Package Express 8%, Food Services 2%, Charter 1%, and Other 9%.

Operating profits were $73,200,000.

Revenue was $990,600,000.

Greyhound OTP is at 89.3%, slightly lower than the 91.4% of FY2013. Timing is done to a 15-minute standard.

Poor whether caused slightly reduced revenue, profits, and OTP compared to 2013. Overall, profits increased significantly since 2009.

79% of passengers rode Greyhound US, 21% Greyhound Canada.

48% rode 1-200 miles, 34% 201-450 miles, 13% 451-1000 miles, and 5% over 1,000 miles.

Greyhound's next goals are to introduce a completely new IT program and return Greyhound Canada to "sustained profitability". It appears that GLC earns money in the summer and loses money in the winter, hence their lack of money to purchase new units.

Other goals are to further increase amenities on the coaches, including Greyhound BLUE, and heavy growth of Greyhound Express/Limited, which has resulted in 10% ridership growth on routes that received such service.

The US intercity bus industry has grown every year since 2006. Currently, it is the fastest-growing mode of transport in the US.

Greyhound's customer base is about 11 million people, who are "regular Greyhound riders". Even though these passengers travel by other modes 75% of the time, they still ride Greyhound multiple times a year and make the bulk of Greyhound ridership.

Greyhound opened or is about to open new terminals in Seattle, Baltimore, and Miami.

Greyhound's combined US and Canada fleet is about 1,700 coaches.

Greyhound continues to follow their "all or nothing" investment pattern, focusing on fleet investment.

Greyhound will increase the routes offering Greyhound BLUE by the end of 2014.

Greyhound's medium-term profit margin target is 12%.

My own take on Greyhound:

Greyhound's reputation was very bad in the 1980s due to a series of violent strikes. This got worse in the 1990s after a bankruptcy and the selling or 102A3 units in exchange for less-comfortable MC-12 machines, despite the latter's high reliability. They hit an all-time reputation low in 2004 after the G4500 debacle.

However, the stripped of large segments of the network allowed Greyhound to relegate the G4500's to reserve service until they were rebuilt. The G4500, now rebuilt, is an excellent coach for passengers, and I know because I have ridden it, and I made a travelogue on it which I have posted as well. The driver also gave a positive review compared to the new D4505 coaches. Anyone who has not ridden or driven the Blue G4500 should not make any comments on it.

In fact, anyone that hasn't even ridden Greyhound in the past five years should not jump to conclusions about anything.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> A few things wrong here. Greyhound actually does have ticket kiosks at major stations, where one can print out Will Call tickets. Also, if the customer had trouble printing the ticket from his e-mail, why didn't he go to the library and print it out there?
> 
> They wouldn't have to purchase another ticket, as the original ticket would have been saved in his e-mail on a PDF attachment. That is how Greyhound sends Print at Home tickets.
> 
> Also, a photo is no evidence. Greyhound actually allows their agents to look up a ticket and print them at the terminal, given that the passenger looks up his original ticket PDF file and displays it to the agent along with ID and credit card. That's because you failed to print the PDF file at home.
> 
> But instead of looking up the PDF file, John Doyle decided to show the agent a photo of his tickets.
> 
> With Will Call tickets, you only need to display credit card.


I think we can all agree Greyhound's print at home ticket system is seriously flawed.
Here's the rules lifted from Greyhound's website:



> Print at Home tickets MUST be printed by the passenger prior to travel. Ticket displayed on smartphones cannot be accepted. Customers without the ticket printout will be required to purchase another ticket prior to boarding the bus. Tickets will not be refunded due to printing issues.


Where in there do you see that an agent can "look up a ticket and print them at the terminal, given that the passenger looks up his original ticket PDF file and displays it to the agent along with ID and credit card"?
I actually see a policy that states the exact opposite of that. From my reading of that it sounds like if you don't have your ticket printed, you have to buy another. That's a moronic policy.

Oh and the fact that kiosks can only print out will call tickets but not print at home tickets? That's moronic too.

Regardless of the minute details of this case... It was an opportunity for Greyhound to have provided exceptional customer service... but they failed. With the simple act of looking up and re-printing this persons ticket he could have walked away happy... but instead he's become a "never again" customer who posted an angry message online. But hey! Greyhound made a few extra bucks at his expense. That's good for the long-term bottom line right?

I'm sure there are thousands of examples out there like this one.

If you really want to be a true advocate for Greyhound... be an advocate for making the experience great for every customer and don't make excuses for the company when they fall short of that expectation.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That may be the policy, but if the agent is nice enough, he can do it. One time I was at Greyhound Oakland, and the guy in front (or was it behind?) of me had a ticket displayed on his smartphone, his ID, and his credit card. The agent printed out his ticket for him.

However, he did not exactly tell me whether he had a Print at Home ticket or a Will Call ticket, and I'm not sure exactly what was on his smartphone. So I don't know if this is the same situation or not.

But, it's possible, though Print at Home is still flawed. I disagree that it is "seriously" flawed though, because with the kinds of computer and printer availability these days, John Doyle could have printed his ticket at the library or elsewhere. These days, it is so easy for a passenger to print out a ticket prior to travel, that not being able to print out a Print at Home ticket should not be a good excuse for any passenger.

Making excuses for Greyhound wouldn't benefit me, so I'm just saying that, while Print at Home is not perfect, I've used it a few times with success, sure it may be "flawed" but it's not "seriously flawed".

It's a PDF document, it's there to stay in your e-mail anywhere you access your e-mail. With the amount of public computers and printers out there these days, how hard can it be to do that?

Their policy may be bad, but at least they have the policy and followed it. The passenger did not read the policy before booking, either. Better than doing something not backed up by a policy.

I guess in the end, Greyhound's biggest problems at its policies like this and the photography ban. Unfortunately, Greyhound management ha a few great guys (Dave Leach, Myron Watkins, Bill Blankenship) and doesn't seem to have much good other guys. All three guys that seem competent are knowledgeable about buses and bus operations, not about customer service.

Sure, Watkins is in charge of Customer Experience but he seems more interested in introducing new amenities on buses, getting rid of overbooking, and improving the comfort of buses, instead of doing anything about other stuff. Not sure what to say about this "all or noting."

As for the lower levels, I've found the drivers to be the best, everyone else is totally unreliable, form ticket agents, to baggage handlers. Even the drivers have a "all or nothing" system where some drivers are great and other are horrible. But most are great.

The horrible drivers are the extra board drivers that usually drive short-haul high-density routes. The LD drivers have more regular rotations and much higher pay, so they are much nicer to passengers.

All that being said, Greyhound has said they are working on revamping the booking system, which will eventually sort out these problems. Possibly at the direction of Myron Watkins.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A Greyhound driver recently posted his favorite bus to drive, an unlikely candidate, I must say, but he said this was his favorite: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12314620533/sizes/h/.

That model is very rare in Greyhound's fleet and is currently listed for sale because they are only 40 feet long which would cause overbooking when probably all of the other coaches are 45 feet long.

Another example looks like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4740453005/sizes/l.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> A Greyhound driver recently posted his favorite bus to drive, an unlikely candidate, I must say, but he said this was his favorite: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12314620533/sizes/h/.
> 
> That model is very rare in Greyhound's fleet and is currently listed for sale because they are only 40 feet long which would cause overbooking when probably all of the other coaches are 45 feet long.
> 
> Another example looks like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4740453005/sizes/l.


Somehow, I was expecting a photo of the one (3074), behind the one focused in the second link.......


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## Swadian Hardcore

I told you it was going to be unexpected! But yeah, that Shorty actually has decent seats, albeit very old seats: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14502405427/in/[email protected]/.

They are listed for sale on First's website, the non-lift-equipped ones will go first. They still have some resale value despite raking up over 1,200,000 miles. I bet Greyhound would have rebuilt them if they wouldn't cause overbooking due to their shorter length.

I saw this surprising shot of two Americanos units at Greyhound San Diego: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15236434251.

They are both white and lift-equipped. One is a G4500, and the other is a 102DL3.

The G4500 is in surprisingly good shape for an Americanos G.

Here's Greyhound Canada White G4500 #1240 with NO wheelchair lift: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wenspics_-_wpt/2380183298/sizes/l. I thought they all had lifts! Well now, that #1240 is getting retired!


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## rickycourtney

I'm always amused when I see pictures of Greyhound Canada buses pulling trailers. Does anyone know the story behind why Greyhound Express has become so successful that they needed to add trailers to buses and operate truck routes?


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## Swadian Hardcore

You mean Greyhound Package Express? Very simple, people in small rural towns, back in the old days (1930s), started giving packages to passing bus drivers for delivery to the next town at a small charge. Then it grew into an organized business and now you have it.

Greyhound Canada pulls trailers on remote routes to deliver much-needed supplies in the same way that VIA Rail delivers supplied on remote train routes.

Edit: More bus seats conforming to the latest regulations, National Seating 4210AB10 and 4210SB10. The National 4210 was the bestseller for years after deregulation increased the share of the charter market, but has fallen out of favor due to the Amaya A210 and Torino G/G Plus. However, National continues to claim that their comfort in unmatched and the best in the industry.

The National 4210 was never ordered by Greyhound. The 4210, being designed for 102" coaches, could not be installed on the MC-12 or MC-9SP.

National 4210AB10 brochure: http://www.cvgrp.com/Literature/NS.1002.pdf.

National 4210SB10 brochure: http://www.cvgrp.com/Literature/NS.1006.pdf.


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## railiner

Sure miss those National's....our pre-2009 Prevost's have those.....very comfortable...far superior to those miserable seats that came in the 2009 models...


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## Swadian Hardcore

How about those Nationals vs the old and new Amayas? Greyhound's old coaches have the old Amayas, new coaches have those miserable American Premiers, of course. Peter Pan's and Martz's new coaches have the new Amaya A210. Don't know if you're ever ridden those.

Academy's new J4500's have Amaya Torino G Plus. Ever ridden those? Their E's have Amaya Torino VIP, I think. That seat is out of the US market now, no "containment".


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## rickycourtney

I guessed it was something like that. Compared to the US, Canada likely has a lot more rural areas that aren't served by other carriers.

It's neat that Greyhound has found such a lucrative business in shipping.

Fun story... for years my old TV station had a shipping contract with Greyhound Package Express. They used to use buses to send film and later tapes between Fresno, Bakersfield, LA, Sacramento and San Francisco. For decades it was the only way to get footage from other markets (without using planes) and even after the invention of satellite news gathering it remained popular for less critical video. Of course now most of our non critical transmission is done over the internet.


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## railiner

Yeah, I remember those old octagonal shaped metal shipping container's for the movies.....they were pretty hefty...

Greyhound carried but a shadow of what they used to in GPX in the states. They don't really seem to aggressively market it to its full potential....

It seems almost, as if they begrudgingly "accommodate" those that still use the service, rather than look to turn it into a real money-maker.

They do have a unique advantage over carrier's like UPS and FEDEX....they can in many cases offer same-day service, can carry larger items like automobile doors, bumper's, etc.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They currently have Package Express as 8% of the revenue, on GTE, where I also posted the annual report, people have said it used to be 15% the revenue. Still, it could be worse, just look at that charter revenue, 1%! I bet charter revenue used to be much higher in the days before small charter operators with low-cost localized operations.


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## rickycourtney

Do those numbers include Greyhound US and Greyhound Canada? I imagine that Greyhound Package Express is a larger source of revenue north of the border.


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## railiner

Greyhound has never really gone all out for the charter business. Their expenses were higher than what small charter companies could manage. Greyhound always made sure to take care of their line run business first, and then take a few charter's here and there. Notable exception's were large-scale operation's such as providing shuttle services for Olympic's, major convention's and the like...

Deregulation has also opened up the charter market considerably....

When I was dispatching for Continental Trailways in Denver, from 1974 to 1979, we dominated the line and charter routes out of our Denver hub. Our General Manager fought hard to keep us that way....On a Saturday morning during the height of the ski season, we handled about 100 or more charters! About divided evenly between all day ski charter's for local groups, and one way ski charter's for groups going to or from Stapleton Airport....and that in additon to all of our line runs radiating out in all directions from Denver...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Those numbers are in the First Group Annual Report, I'm sure it includes both GLI and GLC. The numbers on the discussion board? Well, they're just thrown out by enthusiasts, but it probably was 15% somewhere. GLC used to not have any trailers, they introduced them in the early 1990's apparently with some of the later 102C3's. Before that, they used "cargo combos" like the special-spec 96A3 to deliver remote shipments.

Here's a Cargo Combo 96A3 rather beat-up: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/a-c/gry_797-4.jpg.

Note the "SCENICRUISER" lettering.

After all, both are put under "Greyhound" and the section also says there will be an effort to "return Greyhound Canada to sustained profitability".


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound lineup photo in Portland, March 2014, found on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wayneworden/13222038245/sizes/h/.

Pretty self-explanatory where all those buses came from. Surprised at the amount of BoltBus units sitting in the Greyhound gates. D4505's from Los Angeles, Blue G's from Denver, White G's from Seattle.


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## rickycourtney

Yeah I've often been surprised by how many BoltBus units are sitting at the gates in Portland. I think it's because they do some housekeeping on the busses at the station (general cleaning and refueling). I'm guessing some of this work can only be done up at the gates and not elsewhere in the lot. It's a nice advertisement for the BoltBus service but as you probably know these buses operate from a curbside stop further south in downtown Portland.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like they blew the cover for BoltBus. I don't understand how come Greyhound's D4505's have that thick black trim abov ethe window line. Looks like they have double trim while the current D4500CL/CT have single trim. Then it looks like they painted an added thick black stripe all the way to the top above the double black trim.

They didn't do such "decoration" for the DL3, Blue G, or X3-45.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looks like they blew the cover for BoltBus.


Greyhound blew their cover in regards to BoltBus long ago here in the PNW. They've been using the station in Portland to store buses during layovers for years now. Even more visible us the situation in Vancouver where BoltBus and Greyhound operate side-by-side (much like they do in SF). That's why I wonder why they don't have a logo by the front door that says something like "proudly operated by Greyhound" I think it helps improve the Greyhound image in the eyes of some of the companies most high value passengers without really hurting the BoltBus image.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't understand how come Greyhound's D4505's have that thick black trim abov ethe window line. Looks like they have double trim while the current D4500CL/CT have single trim. Then it looks like they painted an added thick black stripe all the way to the top above the double black trim.
> 
> They didn't do such "decoration" for the DL3, Blue G, or X3-45.


I think the glossy black paint above the windows is a sharp look and makes them look bigger. It reminds me of the look of the X3-45 where the windows wrap up to the roof.


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## railiner

I have a different opinion of the long time trend to "blackout" the side windows.....by that I mean, I am so old-fashioned, I love the original "silversides" look where fluted aluminum covered the sides between and up to the windows, as in the old GM coaches of the forties thru the sixties. It was around the early seventies, when the trend to paint the sides black between and around the windows, to give the illusion they were bigger, began....

But then again, I have always expressed my preference for fluted stainless steel, or polished aluminum on all transport from Budd's to Boeing's to buses, over painted......


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## railiner

To add to the above.....sometimes it can be "too much".....a couple of weeks ago, I saw a new Rolls-Royce Phantom in Manhattan whose every exterior surface was a mirror-like chrome plating. Talk about "bling".......


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## Swadian Hardcore

While I like that look for its detailed, intricate style, the new "blackout" window line seems much more imposing and stylish from a distance.

Technically, the D4505 does have the same side window height as the X3-45, just placed lower, which I still prefer.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Look at what Peter Pan has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7YJXAr8ygU.

Yes, an intercity D4500CT. They have 12 of them ordered together with the J4500's. Shouldn't be a state-supported order because it was combined with the J4500 order. Apparently they are also disappointed at the D4505.


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## rickycourtney

Other than a few cosmetic changes, what exactly is the difference between the D4500CT and the D4505?

Also, Peter Pan's livery is just... awful.


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## Swadian Hardcore

My experience has been that it is more consistent in terms of ride quality, but I'm not sure why. My ride on YARTS to Yosemite was significantly better than that Greyhound D4505 I rode on the same trip even though both had the same seats and engine. Perhaps the D4505 has some difference that I couldn't find on the spec sheet. You will notice the wheelchair lift door of that unit is quite large compared to the Greyhound D4505's. I think Peter Pan looks fine if they didn't have the "peterpanbus.com" written along the top of the windows.

BTW, the current D4500CT is available with the J4500 interior but it's not listed on the specs. I saw a video of it on YouTube in NJT service. No LED courtesy lighting though, it still has the old J4500 halogen (or incandescent?) lighting strips along the ceiling. I'm sure it's available with LED if one orders it. Probably in the D4505 too but this shows the specs aren't everything. Just like how the D4500CT isn't shown as a line-haul coach, it's shown as "Commuter" but some people use it for line-haul.

Edit: What D is this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/genevievelepine/2413301051/sizes/l. That is a D interior, says ex-Voyaguer, has a blue headliner and enclosed parcel racks. I doubt it's actually ex-Voyageur but I could be wrong.


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## Green Maned Lion

Bus builders aren't automakers, Swad. I can get whatever I want from MCI, Prevost, Van Hool, or Setra. I just have to pay for it. If I wanted an MCI J4500 with the interior made out of peet moss with a Volvo engine, I'm sure I could get it. Might have to pay a few million, but they'd build it.


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## rickycourtney

Took the train down to Portland yesterday and since the Greyhound station is just a couple of steps away from Union Station I snapped a couple of pictures for you Swad:





And another one I snapped in the evening:


Geek away...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks Ricky. I looked up the timetable, everything in Portland to/from Seattle is now a Los Angeles through service. That explains the D4505's. The BoltBus units, we know what they are doing. The DL3 (or two?) is most likely from Denver. The White G is most likely from Spokane or maybe one of the last left in Los Angeles. The Blue G's, I'm guessing they're from Denver? Because there's no more Seattle-Portland runs that don't go all the way to Los Angeles, and we know Los Angeles is D4505 Land.

Did you catch the Blue G numbers? I would like to add to my list.

Oh, regarding the D4500CT with the J4500 interior, yes, you can get what you pay for, but NJT gives orders to the lowest bidder.


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## rickycourtney

There was a Blue G (#7191) on schedule 1429 to Los Angeles tonight.


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## Green Maned Lion

Swad: do me a favor and PM me. Is like to stay in contact with you, my friend.


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## Swadian Hardcore

#7191 you say? Well, I caught it in Reno: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14367776669/. I'm pretty sure it's based from Denver, someone else caught it getting washed in Denver. Blue G heading to Los Angeles? Did you see it in Portland or Seattle? Perhaps it was going to stop in Portland, hand off to a Los Angeles-based D4505, then run to Denver.

Say, I was looking at various seat specs, and I was wondering what you guys thought about the tables at the rear of motorcoaches? I always thought they would be a bad idea, wasting room for recline. I also remember the old radio modules on Adirondack's National Seating, I bet no one uses it anymore, but they're still listed on some specs. They also have the regular options like tray tables, cup holders, manual and "automatic" footrests, seat backs that match the seat covers or carpeted seat backs, the list goes on and on. I guess winged is preferred over flat or pillow headrests. Really interested in the new National 4210SB10, wonder how it stacks up to Amaya Torino G and A-2TEN.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like they blew the cover for BoltBus.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound blew their cover in regards to BoltBus long ago here in the PNW. They've been using the station in Portland to store buses during layovers for years now. Even more visible us the situation in Vancouver where BoltBus and Greyhound operate side-by-side (much like they do in SF). That's why I wonder why they don't have a logo by the front door that says something like "proudly operated by Greyhound" I think it helps improve the Greyhound image in the eyes of some of the companies most high value passengers without really hurting the BoltBus image.
Click to expand...

GLI's Portland terminal serves as both a layover facility for the equipment on the Seattle-based runs and as a driver base for runs out of Portland. There are buses that are assigned to Portland which are swapped out for maintenance on a regular basis in Seattle.

Regarding Vancouver, the current GLI stop was the quickest way in without getting involved with additional permits from the city.

A greater "Greyhound" presence aside from the legals on the bottom of the bus would not mesh well with many Bolt riders. Although many people recognize that it's a part of the company, they're taking Bolt because it's not really Greyhound.

Whenever a Bolt trip is covered by a Greyhound or Peter Pan vehicle in the Northeast, no matter if it's the same type of bus or even newer with better features, it's guaranteed to set off complaints the next day. People pay for the Bolt brand and expect it.

Just my two cents.


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## Swadian Hardcore

At this point I've given up the thoughts of riding Bolt in the PNW since Greyhound upgraded their equipment and Bolt Rewards don't mix with Greyhound Road Rewards. Plus the Blue G's have far better seats than the X3-45's or D4505's, and more legroom too. Add on the chance of riding a H3-45, and yeah, Greyhound is probably better in the PNW now. Just needs some faster service, maybe, but then again, if they make many stops, I can hop off, stretch my legs, take pictures, and say I've been to that place.

But I might ride Bolt on one segment just to show the X3-45 to my travel buddy.

Shows that Greyhound hate is overblown no matter how problematic their Print at Home Tickets system is.

BTW, White G frenzy spotted in El Paso February 2014: https://www.flickr.com/photos/southerncalifornian/15385155792/in/photolist-prhd1D-prwWNL-ppwLYb.


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## rickycourtney

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Regarding Vancouver, the current GLI stop was the quickest way in without getting involved with additional permits from the city.


Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with BoltBus operating side-by-side with Greyhound at Pacific Central Station. It's a great facility and served by several carriers.



metrolinecoach111 said:


> A greater "Greyhound" presence aside from the legals on the bottom of the bus would not mesh well with many Bolt riders. Although many people recognize that it's a part of the company, they're taking Bolt because it's not really Greyhound.


Look, you truly are the expert when it comes to BoltBus, so I defer to you.

But from personal experience I would argue that *most* BoltBus customers have no clue it's operated by Greyhound. That's why I argue that adding "Operated by Greyhound" (no like co-branding or anything) could help improve the image of Greyhound in the eyes of the companies high value BoltBus passengers.

That's my two cents, which are probably a lot less valuable than yours.


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## rickycourtney

I saw 7191 in Seattle, bound for Los Angeles. Didn't have time to take down the fleet numbers while in Portland.

I don't know why the buses would be switched out in Portland... as long the engine has a partculate filter, the G4500 can run in California.

As far as BoltBus vs Greyhound here in the Pacific Northwest... the difference is time. BoltBus is a much faster trip, but it doesn't sound like that matters much to you.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Say, I was looking at various seat specs, and I was wondering what you guys thought about the tables at the rear of motorcoaches? I always thought they would be a bad idea, wasting room for recline. I also remember the old radio modules on Adirondack's National Seating, I bet no one uses it anymore, but they're still listed on some specs. They also have the regular options like tray tables, cup holders, manual and "automatic" footrests, seat backs that match the seat covers or carpeted seat backs, the list goes on and on. I guess winged is preferred over flat or pillow headrests. Really interested in the new National 4210SB10, wonder how it stacks up to Amaya Torino G and A-2TEN.


Amtrak California's new D4505's and their slightly older C2045's have 2 tables in the back and they've been a hit. Families and groups love them and flock to be the first on the bus hoping to grab those seats. On the technical side of things, the seats that face the tables have their reclining mechanisms removed, but the seats are spaced so that the seats in front of them can still recline.
Amtrak California also experimented with "snack trays" on the C2045s. They proved unpopular because they're small and not strong enough to support the weight of an iPad (forget using a laptop). While I haven't heard anything official, I suspect that they elected to not use tray tables because of the expense.


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## Pink Furred Tiger

Thanks, Swad. You are a real friend!


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## Pink Furred Tiger

Thanks, Swad. You are a real friend!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> I saw 7191 in Seattle, bound for Los Angeles. Didn't have time to take down the fleet numbers while in Portland.
> 
> I don't know why the buses would be switched out in Portland... as long the engine has a partculate filter, the G4500 can run in California.
> 
> As far as BoltBus vs Greyhound here in the Pacific Northwest... the difference is time. BoltBus is a much faster trip, but it doesn't sound like that matters much to you.


The G4500's were built 2001-2003, they don't have a particulate filter. None of them have been seen in California. Google Maps recently updated their Street Views in many California cities. Complete D4505 domination. Greyhound wouldn't want to install a particular filter if they don't have to, considering the loss of fuel economy. Nobody said a DPF was required in a 2001-2003 Blue G and nobody is forced to run it in California. With all the D4505's in place in Los Angeles, it wouldn't be difficult to switch out the coaches in Portland.

Besides, like Metrolinecoach111 said, coaches rotate through Portland to reach Seattle for maintenance. Though in that case, I can't understand why #7191 would not have gone back to Denver instead. I'm also certain it's a Denver coach.

BoltBus isn't "much faster", Bolt is about 3:15 or 3:30, Greyhound is 4:05. The Blue G seating is much more comfortable than a X3-45, so I don't really care about that 50 minutes. Like I said, I would be on vacation anyway, and I would be earning Road Rewards.

BTW, Greyhound runs the "local" Denver to SLC via US 40 as an express. They list many stops but don't make most of them because US 40 is a two-lane road so the driver just sees if anyone is getting on or of (usually zero people) and passes through without stopping.

Besides, not all Greyhound drivers are created equal. For example, you complained about your driver letting baggage block the aisle, but Kit insisted that it must not block the aisle. Some drivers get you there much faster than others. And the specific bus matter too, older coaches without DPF's, like the Blue G or DL3, drive faster than the newer ones.

Also, those stops give me the chance to "visit" every little town for a few minutes.



rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Say, I was looking at various seat specs, and I was wondering what you guys thought about the tables at the rear of motorcoaches? I always thought they would be a bad idea, wasting room for recline. I also remember the old radio modules on Adirondack's National Seating, I bet no one uses it anymore, but they're still listed on some specs. They also have the regular options like tray tables, cup holders, manual and "automatic" footrests, seat backs that match the seat covers or carpeted seat backs, the list goes on and on. I guess winged is preferred over flat or pillow headrests. Really interested in the new National 4210SB10, wonder how it stacks up to Amaya Torino G and A-2TEN.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak California's new D4505's and their slightly older C2045's have 2 tables in the back and they've been a hit. Families and groups love them and flock to be the first on the bus hoping to grab those seats. On the technical side of things, the seats that face the tables have their reclining mechanisms removed, but the seats are spaced so that the seats in front of them can still recline.
> Amtrak California also experimented with "snack trays" on the C2045s. They proved unpopular because they're small and not strong enough to support the weight of an iPad (forget using a laptop). While I haven't heard anything official, I suspect that they elected to not use tray tables because of the expense.
Click to expand...

Really? I don't understand the popularity of the tables, but oh well, I guess people like to draw and play cards instead of viewing the scenery. Can't understand why Amtrak California's contractors are using such fuel-guzzling equipment as the D4505. BTW, they are currently selling 2007 and 2009 Van Hools. No surprise, they don't last long.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Pink Furred Tiger said:


> Thanks, Swad. You are a real friend!


No problem. Need help with something?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The G4500's were built 2001-2003, they don't have a particulate filter. None of them have been seen in California. Google Maps recently updated their Street Views in many California cities. Complete D4505 domination.


I don't know what the hell you're talking about. The last time I was in Southern California I saw an G4500, X3-45, and the D4505. Plus, a cursory look at street view shows every model in Greyhound's fleet (102DL3, G4500, X3-45, D4505) in the yard.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound wouldn't want to install a particular filter if they don't have to, considering the loss of fuel economy.


The DPF doesn't have as big of an impact on performance that the EGR system does.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Nobody said a DPF was required in a 2001-2003 Blue G and nobody is forced to run it in California. With all the D4505's in place in Los Angeles, it wouldn't be difficult to switch out the coaches in Portland.


It's required if Greyhound runs them in California, which they still are. Yes, they could switch it out in Portland, but it would be a pain in the ass to make sure those buses never run in California.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Besides, like Metrolinecoach111 said, coaches rotate through Portland to reach Seattle for maintenance. Though in that case, I can't understand why #7191 would not have gone back to Denver instead. I'm also certain it's a Denver coach.


Why wouldn't it be a Seattle based coach?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> BoltBus isn't "much faster", Bolt is about 3:15 or 3:30, Greyhound is 4:05. The Blue G seating is much more comfortable than a X3-45, so I don't really care about that 50 minutes. Like I said, I would be on vacation anyway, and I would be earning Road Rewards.


That's why I said "it doesn't sound like that matters much to you."

Those times are what the run is scheduled at, but every trip I've taken on BoltBus has arrived early (due to padding on the schedule) making it more like 3:00 or 3:15. But BoltBus is 20% faster than Greyhound, in my book that's "much faster". But that being said, I've never been on the G4500, but I imagine the seats are more comfortable (they couldn't be much worse).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I guess people like to draw and play cards instead of viewing the scenery.


Bingo.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That Street View shows a single White G4500 only. See a Blue G4500? What I heard from Greyhound employees was that the Blue G4500 would never operate in California. It is possible they got a waiver to operate a few White G4500s as reserve units from California until all of them could be retired or moved out, which is happening fast, as more White Gs have been seen in Texas already. That waiver on the basis of Greyhound's promise to remove them ASAP, which also explains the lack of Blue Gs.

This other Street View shows a bunch of White G4500s getting parted out at Los Angeles: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0340131,-118.2374595,3a,15y,252.91h,84.69t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s2Arwv75i0ezwdOQ940-IPg!2e0.

#7191 isn't a Seattle-based coach because it's based from Denver. How the heck would a Seattle-based coach end up in Reno? It would have to go from Seattle to Los Angeles, then to San Francisco, then to Reno. Or it would have to go from Seattle to Portland then to Denver then to Reno. Both are highly unlikely. And it can't pass through California anyways, as far as I know.

There's also a row of White DL3's parked across from the G4500s and Viaggios, but they appear to be intact and operational, leading me to believe that they are charter-only units or units for sale.

Edit: Here's another possibility. Greyhound and Americanos both have some late-model G4500's with CAT engines. It's possible these have DPFs, but since CAT engines are so problematic to maintain, Greyhound may have decided not to rebuild them, and thus they will never be Blue G's. I know Greyhound #7229-7244 have CAT engines.


----------



## Guest Blue Main Lyon.

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Pink Furred Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Swad. You are a real friend!
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. Need help with something?
Click to expand...

I told you, Swadian. I would like to keep in touch with you since I am no longer posting on this forum. If this interests you, please personal message me and send me a means with which we could do so.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sure, you can comment on my Flickr photostream or send an e-mail to [email protected]

Surfed Street View for a while looking for Greyhound.

I just spotted this on Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7855908,-96.8136366,3a,15y,159.45h,87.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHXOzDDP7j3VY9Fhwoh37jw!2e0.

Also interesting, a White Americanos DL3 with a LED sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7588474,-106.4911814,3a,15y,60.59h,84.79t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sBPE_gHYF3hi8ViqGt4918g!2e0.

DL3s join a burnt-out G at Greyhound's Amarillo Garage, inherited from TNM&O: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2101768,-101.8442736,3a,57.9y,100h,79.74t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1smtslw-3xouRMduaanEYgHg!2e0.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2098325,-101.8430396,3a,53.7y,295.14h,84.09t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGoe2MvG-0IbiydwlrIx_fA!2e0.

Greyhound Blue Dina Viaggios. No wheelchair lift, but they have the amenity icons on the doors.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Interesting news, Greyhound's Centennial tour was spotted with a brand-new plain white Restyled J4500 that was also opened to display. It appears to be equipped with Amaya A-2TEN, window blinds, and six 15" flat screens monitors, but has the old full-length fluorescent strip interior lighting. However, it does appear to have the new overhead amenity modules on the parcel racks, with parallel reading lights, seat-belt signs, and flap air vents. The original J4500 had the EGJ modules, lined-up turning-knob air vents with small parallel reading lights in between them and no seat-belt signs.

It could be just another "show coach" like MC-12 Funkmaster Flex #3018, or 2008 pilot X3-45 #8882 which was equipped with flat-screens and put on display. But this does show Greyhound is seriously considering the J4500.


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## rickycourtney

That is very interesting.

I'm interested to see how the fasten seat belt signs work. I haven't seen any pictures of the sign. I wonder if it's always lit or if the driver can toggle it on and off.

Either way it's a great idea. A nice way to both remind people to use their seat belts and if it can be toggled, keep them seated during stop and go city travel.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The signs appear to quite small. They can be seen in MCI's new J4500 Sales Brochure.

What I also found interesting were the Blue Dina Viaggios with upgraded amenities. I have no idea what kind of seating they would have or what is going on.

Greyhound has a few charter-only Blue DL's in Dallas caught on Street View. They must be rarely used as charters are only 1% of Greyhound revenue. But they'll probably be able to hold down Greyhound charter ops for many years.

Some White DL3s for sale.


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## railiner

I checked with my local GL source....he is not aware of any Greyhound interest in the J4500. He asked me where the white J was seen, and he asked me what sense it would make for GL to display a bus in their tour that was not in GL's livery.....I had no anwer for him......


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> I checked with my local GL source....he is not aware of any Greyhound interest in the J4500. He asked me where the white J was seen, and he asked me what sense it would make for GL to display a bus in their tour that was not in GL's livery.....I had no anwer for him......


The J4500 was spotted in front of the US Department of Transportation in Washington, DC, in July 2014. It was parked besides Greyhound's Northern Centennial Tour, which consisted of six Greyhound coaches and the white J4500. All were on display on the curb behind a row of traffic cones, tightly parked in a column. The public was invited to enter the X3-45, J4500. and 102DL3 Mobile Museum. Reports say the J4500 had the interior with Amaya A-2TEN seating, window shades, etc. The exterior was plain white except for the black roof cap. It had the new LED exterior lighting but not LED interior lighting.

Apparently the coach was white, but it is unclear whether the coach is plain white. It may have had Greyhound decals applied over the white base paint, which Greyhound has done before. It may have been a leased unit.


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## rickycourtney

Maybe it was a demo unit that MCI happened to be showing off at the same time as Greyhound was showing off its X3-45 and the other historic buses. It's not out of the realm of possibility considering it's taking place outside of the DOT's headquarters.


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## rickycourtney

I just found the image of that fasten seat belt sign in the brochure. The sign looks similar to the size you would see on a regional jet. That entire passenger service unit looks nice. I always liked that slat style air vent on the X3-45, I'm glad MCI switched to that design.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I finally fixed linking problems and now I am able to show you this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_56waWjzyE.

You can see the J4500 parked at the end of the Greyhound lineup behind the X3-45. It was definitely on display. Notice how the J4500 interior is first shown while the reporter is talking about Greyhound's new amenities. It's possible that MCI would be showing it off as a show coach, but I would've expected a MCI representative to be speaking. Furthermore, I would have expected MCI to post some of their markings on the interior. Every J4500 Demo interior I have seen has a MCI logo at the back. And if MCI wanted to show it off, why wouldn't it have LED interior lights?

All I know right now is that the interior shown in the video is MCI's ubiquitous J4500 interior. It is seen on three separate examples with three separate owners:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/istagelines/14029047206

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14313726620

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10564960805/.

Incidentally, the ISL J4500 lacks the logo at the back, but the aisle is lines with MCI logos, possibly the floor covering of a newly-delivered coach.


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## Swadian Hardcore

BUS ON FIRE!

Just happened: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Charter-Bus-With-Children-Catches-Fire-277979671.html. 

Autobuses Americanos' white G4500 caught on fire in La Jolla, CA, north of San Diego while apparently running Schedule 9486 San Ysidro-Los Angeles.

That is a plain-white G4500 with no markings others than "AMERICANOS".

Formerly an independent operator that was purchased by Greyhound but kept independently-operating until July 2013, when their fleet was merged with Greyhound.

This represents the loss of yet another white G4500, right when Greyhound was retiring/rebuilding them at high rates.


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## rickycourtney

Demo buses tend to be very early models (first off the production line) so it wouldn't surprise me if that particular unit was missing the LED overhead lighting.

Has there been any other reports of that J4500 showing up at the other North or South Tour stops?


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're not wrong about the lighting, but what about MCI's silence on this? Why did MCI not send a rep to speak? How come the coach had no MCI logos? How come MCI was not mentioned in the video?

I doubt it's owned by Greyhound, but at this point, I have no idea what to believe. Maybe it's leased.

Regarding Blue G4500s, I've finally found a shot of one with the engine hood open: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7853622,-96.8140888,3a,15y,163.66h,84.44t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0SGwdDyoYDo7N3rCrmIwJw!2e0. #7147 at Dallas Maintenance Center. Looks to be a rebuilt Detroit 60.


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## rickycourtney

Well just an observation here... It was a rather short video. Maybe the editor chose not to use the MCI sound or MCI didn't send a rep who was authorized to speak to the media.

Also we saw very few shots of the J4500. I don't recall seeing a good shot of the back or more importantly a shot of the side to see who's certificate the bus was operating under.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Blue G4500 #7170 spotted in Milwaukee: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/15194626018/sizes/l.

Blue G4500 #7169 spotted as well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/15230208127/sizes/l/.

Excellent photos by J. Mc of the Motor Bus Society. Both coaches are very likely based from Chicago.

Greyhound's confirmed Blue G fleet spottings have risen to 43.

Lots of legroom in those coaches! Hoping Greyhound can get something like the Blue G with their next order.


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## rickycourtney

Thinking out loud here:
It's been a while since the X3-45 and the D4505 have been updated. The X3-45 has been virtually unchanged since it was introduced in 2005 and the D4505 got its last facelift in 2007.

Considering the H3-45 and the J4500 just got major redesigns... could updates to the line-haul coaches be far behind? 

That could explain why Greyhound hasn't been buying new buses en-masse the last few months (really, no motorcoach operator has been buying new buses en-masse).

It's either that, or Greyhound has finally hit a spot where they don't urgently need new buses (after all, over 85 percent of Greyhound’s fleet is new or refurbished at this point) and are instead investing in other areas (like eTicketing).


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know exactly why, but indeed, the line-haul coaches seem to have fallen behind more than just aesthetics. Look at the X3-45. It weighs the same as the H3-45, but it's smaller. In terms of bottom line, the H3-45 just sounds better. The D4505s are fuel guzzlers, while the J4500 has raced ahead in efficiency.

Yeah, Greyhound is probably investing in e-Ticketing, but that shouldn't cost as much as ordering new coaches. The problem is, they still have too many White G4500s rolling around, one just caught on fire, and passengers have recently posted a slew of complaints about the D4505 on Facebook. Greyhound Canada is having financial trouble, and they are apparently still running 1995 DL3s (no rebuild) in reserve service, while trying to retire the White G4500s. Greyhound already has 85% blue, might as well go for 100%.

Greyhound Canada hasn't rebuilt all of their newer 1100-series DL3s yet, I think they might sign a separate contract with MCI to rebuild them, since they are likely lacking in cash to buy new units. Then get rid of all the G4500s, upgrade the White D4505s a bit (to have "blue" amenities), keep the older DL3s for reserve service and Greyhound Canada is good to go.

This is pathetic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/14552288661/sizes/l.

Beat-up White G pulling a shiny new blue trailer? Seriously, that's treating passengers worse than cargo!

Even worse, it's running Vancouver-Calgary, probably the most scenic route (not to mention one of the most popular and profitable) in Greyhound's system, while passengers in that [email protected] White G have to envy their cargo counterparts in the blue trailer.

Here's another White G in Vancouver this past summer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/14369041330/sizes/l.

Then this DL3 goes on a local to Horseshoe Bay: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/14554842382/sizes/l.

Yeah, no wonder Greyhound Canada is in financial trouble. This is the VIP DL3 interior (only shot I could find): https://www.flickr.com/photos/dmcclurg/13521762934/sizes/o/.

Greyhound US should also get rid of their beat-to-hell White G4500s. They probably can't even be rebuilt (too damaged), and as long as GLI has them, they won't have the ability to advertise "xyz amenities on every coach". And they'll keep having lavatory cave-ins, fires, and ill/vomiting passengers.

Now the question is, what will Greyhound buy to replace their remaining White G4500s? The Blue G has gotten an excellent reception, though, the best reviews overall.


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## mightyjoe1201

Just joined. Really enjoy reading about greyhound and their buses. I've learned a lot from you guys.


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## mightyjoe1201

If I can I'll let you guys know what I see but we get very few greyhounds here. Its all railways buses.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, supposed to b trailways


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey Joe, where are you?


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok. I need some help here. I'm getting confuses as to what rack make and model looks like. I'm familiar with the dl3 and the mc12 but nothing else. Would appreciate any help.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hazleton, pa. Middle if nowhere for buses. Lol


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm sorry, I can't understand, "rack make and model"? That doesn't make sense to me, please edit your posts before posting.

Check here for the latest updates in intercity bus service: http://www.kfhgroup.com/aibra/pdf/updates.htm.

Check here to find the lines that service a community: http://www.kfhgroup.com/aibra/Tables/tables.htm.

WARNING: That site likes to switch URLs, please search AIBRA for the latest link if those don't work.

That site is know for minor mistakes. For example, it says Hazleton is served by Greyhound, even though it's not. Hazelton is only served by Susquehanna and Bieber Trailways, the latter with former routes of Capitol Trailways of Pennsylvania. I used to live in Philadelphia, BTW.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, I must have made a typo without knowing and auto correct inserted something on me.

Actually, Beiber no longer does much trailways runs. It Susquehanna and Fullington now. Bieber pulled out early in the year.


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## mightyjoe1201

I think I meant to say each make ans model. I try to edit by I use my phone and get stuff I didn't expect thanks to auto correct.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh my god, Fullington has one of the worst websites around. Can't understand it at all. Bieber indeed seems to be gone. Line I said, AIBRA is not to be trusted. Susquehanna seems to be running Lock Haven-New York City and Williamsport-Philadelphia through Hazleton. That's all I could find.

What are you interested to know? I can try to help.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's mainly what they do along with NYC thru Allentown.

I'm trying to picture what each model looks like when the u are being discussed. I've been around buses all my life cause my grandfather drove for a local company. I also drive transit bus here after being a truck driver. I know what each make generally looks like but not most of the models. Thanks for whatever help I can get.


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, Greyhound bus models.

MCI 102DL3 aka D4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14654844098/sizes/h/.

MCI(-Dina) G4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14677947167/sizes/h/.

MCI D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14891480898/sizes/l.

Prevost X3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14869911146/sizes/h/.

Other bus models.

Prevost H3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8164531891/sizes/l.

MCI 102EL3/E4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2228349675/sizes/l,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10503564233/sizes/l.

MCI J4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2229134018/sizes/l/,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/15210355039/sizes/l.

There's a lot more, but those are the models we're discussing right now.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. Gonna check them out.


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## railiner

My source tells me that GLI has around 200 new buses on order, currently....


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't know exactly why, but indeed, the line-haul coaches seem to have fallen behind more than just aesthetics. Look at the X3-45. It weighs the same as the H3-45, but it's smaller. In terms of bottom line, the H3-45 just sounds better. The D4505s are fuel guzzlers, while the J4500 has raced ahead in efficiency.


That's exactly my point. I'm wondering if Prevost or MCI is planning to totally redesign the line-haul coaches... it seems like its time.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, Greyhound is probably investing in e-Ticketing, but that shouldn't cost as much as ordering new coaches. The problem is, they still have too many White G4500s rolling around, one just caught on fire, and passengers have recently posted a slew of complaints about the D4505 on Facebook. Greyhound Canada is having financial trouble, and they are apparently still running 1995 DL3s (no rebuild) in reserve service, while trying to retire the White G4500s. Greyhound already has 85% blue, might as well go for 100%.


I'm sure that's the plan. Rebuild the G4500 units that can be rebuilt... and retire the rest.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound Canada hasn't rebuilt all of their newer 1100-series DL3s yet, I think they might sign a separate contract with MCI to rebuild them, since they are likely lacking in cash to buy new units. Then get rid of all the G4500s, upgrade the White D4505s a bit (to have "blue" amenities), keep the older DL3s for reserve service and Greyhound Canada is good to go.


Why would they contract with MCI? ABC companies did the rebuilds of the 120DL3 for Greyhound US.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now the question is, what will Greyhound buy to replace their remaining White G4500s? The Blue G has gotten an excellent reception, though, the best reviews overall.


*IF* MCI or Prevost is planning on building a totally redesigned line-haul coach... I'd expect Greyhound to wait it out and buy that.


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> My source tells me that GLI has around 200 new buses on order, currently....


Going on what's public knowledge... Greyhound's last major order was in April, 2013 for 220 buses and it was split between MCI (130 D4505) and Prevost (90 X3-45).That was followed by a smaller order with Prevost in November 2013 for 55 additional buses.

All of those buses were supposed to be delivered by May 2014.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I was thinking they might contract with MCI simply because MCI has a large existing facility in Winnipeg. ABC Companies' refurb facility is in the US and just closed. But Greyhound Canada has units that can be rebuilt, but aren't being rebuilt. Sure, they are probably damaged, and will probably cost quite a lot to rebuild, but at a time when Greyhound Canada is broke and the current line-haul models are not very good for the bottom line, it's better than nothing. And those units already have extra amenities like TVs, winged headrests, and enclosed parcel racks.

This somewhat-damaged DL3 could surely be rebuilt: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6177005306/sizes/l.

As for MCI or Prevost building a totally redesigned coach, well MCI doesn't seem to care since they refuse to even try developing the efficient DD13 for the D4505, meaning that will continue to guzzle fuel, while Prevost seems complacent as well. I don't even know what could be done to the X3-45, the wheelbase is as long as it can get, and Prevost has demonstrated they don't like to embark on major redesigns. Even the X3-45 is very similar to the 1976 LeMirage.

I'm sure the 200 coaches on order was directed at the D4505 and X3-45 order that has already been delivered, though delivery of the D4505 order was apparently suspended, presumably after unhappiness with the fuel guzzling, the D4505 is the least efficient Greyhound and possibly the least efficient coach on the market.

Greyhound Canada's D4505s with the Detroit 60 EGR have also received complaints from drivers. They are white and look really weird: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/d4505/2006d4505a/211008-2811gh1297.jpg.

I really think the D4505 looks worse than the 102DL3 from that angle.

Greyhound appears clueless on how to deal with the remaining White Gs, many of which are damaged beyond repair and must be retired ASAP, while unable to decide what to order. Arrow Stage, a large charter company with 200 vehicles, reported their H3-45s are suffering frequent oil leaks in their Volvo D13 engines, and are now grinding axes with Prevost over maintenance issues. Arrow says they like the H3-45 and think it's one of the best coaches ever built, but the oil leaks are sapping profits and causing a major dispute with Prevost that may have spread to Greyhound.

All these are rumors on the Internet, but Arrow actually made the claim that the Cummins ISX12 is better than the Volvo D13, as much as Greyhound seems to hate the ISX12. I sure wouldn't want my newest coaches to be the worst fuel guzzlers, but I wouldn't want them to spew oil, either.

This is giving Van Hool another opportunity to grab customers with their new CX45 and TX40/45 models, even rumors that Greyhound leased some for BoltBus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Guys, I have news! Greyhound has been spotted using X3-45s in widespread domestic service in Eastern Canada! Tony Solski spotted 2008 X3-45 #8886 with a trailer hitch. Trailers are only pulled in Canada. Current running out of Toronto Garage. It appears the coach still has its American "Lucky Streak" icons. Not sure if the coach is going to be transferred to Canadian registration.

#8886 is one of the few X3-45s to be equipped with Patriot PT seating. When it was built in 2008, American Seating had not come out with the dreaded "Painful Premier" Premier LS yet.


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## rickycourtney

Bus manufacturers aren't like car manufacturers, they make a niche product, so it doesn't really make since for them to radically redesign often.

But MCI has a stated goal of increasing the parts commonality of the D4505 and the J4500. Since the J4500 just got a radical redesign, logic would dictate that the D4505 would also be redesigned using as many of the same parts as possible while retaining the rugged reliability expected from a line haul coach.

While Prevost hasn't publically said that want to standardize parts between the recently redesigned H3-34 and the X3-45... considering the potential cost savings it would behoove the company to do it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You make a good point, but the D4505 is selling so poorly right now, I'm not even sure MCI cares anymore. The J4500 was redesigned when it had already been the bestseller for eight years.

Then again, a redesign might bring more orders. They could extend the wheelbase and give it a Detroit DD13 engine. Then it would likely beat the X3-45.

OTOH, the lines between "line-haul" and "charter" have been increasingly blurred since Orleans Express used so many H3-45s and some J4500s for line-haul. Many operators actually use the H3-45 for line-haul. I assume the X3-45's equally-heavy weight is a factor, along with the H3-45's lowered price. But I don't see how Prevost could lower the weight of the X3-45. It already shares a lot of parts commonality with the H3-45, it used the same engine, transmission, and accessories config. And it has the same interior, same brakes, same radar. And it seems to have the same lights and HVAC.


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## rickycourtney

Just my opinion, but I think there will always be a market for long-haul coaches. There are operators that want a rugged bus like the 102DL3, and don't necessarily want all the bells and whistles you get on the J4500.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree there will always be such a market, especially with the charters and tours market saturated and the line-haul market growing fast. Right now there just doesn't seem to be a dedicated line-hauler that is doing well in sales, and that might really lower the incentive for MCI or Prevost to redesign theirs.

The original D4505 was done poorly because MCI was in bankruptcy at the time. Now you see D4505s performing worse than the much older 102DL3. Many D4505s are showing up with cracks like the G4500.

Dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=719705778064623&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xfa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10599696_719705778064623_2999576903921181817_n.jpg%3Foh%3Ddc36916ed1885a66152306712b927f06%26oe%3D54BE9BAC%26__gda__%3D1422516378_7a43d75f6c1bf7beeeef0c82ae54c721&size=720%2C960.

Another dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=366126470209207&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1453469_366126470209207_5009149614191637700_n.jpg%3Foh%3D5c0dc8c1b59466267186cb3b12bc7b5a%26oe%3D54C3FCC6%26__gda__%3D1421779207_2ee105966107d3c136e0e0f98ce7b1e0&size=543%2C960.

Another dirty D4505: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=366126470209207&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1453469_366126470209207_5009149614191637700_n.jpg%3Foh%3D5c0dc8c1b59466267186cb3b12bc7b5a%26oe%3D54C3FCC6%26__gda__%3D1421779207_2ee105966107d3c136e0e0f98ce7b1e0&size=543%2C960.

D4505 with cracked luggage hold: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15237991879/in/photolist-oVstk2-owKupN-pdwG6V-pv2Fxx-9btKWL-9bqCHk-8Sbw2v-9bqDei.

Chipped bumper: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/7421076676/in/set-72157626594538860.

That is definitely not the rugged durability of the 102DL3. That seems barely more durable than the J4500 or H3-45.

For that matter, this "durable" MC-12 is beat up too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/6163148506/in/set-72157626594538860.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I agree there will always be such a market, especially with the charters and tours market saturated and the line-haul market growing fast. Right now there just doesn't seem to be a dedicated line-hauler that is doing well in sales, and that might really lower the incentive for MCI or Prevost to redesign theirs.


Or it could be the opposite... Line haul buses aren't selling well because operators are waiting for the manufacturers to do a redesign.
Also, those dirty D4505s are DISGUSTING. But that's not MCI's fault... that's just bad maintenance from Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, the chipped bumper and cracked hatches are probably MCI's fault.

This guy appears to be complaining of black smoke spewing out the back of the D4505, though has no evidence to show it: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152790912012526&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1063960_10152790912012526_6142842693678725631_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1505189_10152790912012526_6142842693678725631_n.jpg%3Foh%3D53714cfb2abecc4ae980b5d8e126d246%26oe%3D54BE7061%26__gda__%3D1421845003_6abf96f6750155a684add9889b8a7cc4&size=1153%2C2048.

While one can blame all this on Greyhound maintenance, it's again put against the fact that 102DL3s have no been reported spewing black smoke out the back or leaking massive amounts of rain.

Here's massive amounts of rain leaking and pouring into a Patriot PT-equipped X3-45: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152483332834634&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10273367_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10447875_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_n.jpg%3Foh%3D361197667897f5c26d76e0f5e744e729%26oe%3D54B947E6%26__gda__%3D1420682992_6ca9aa1eea24bf8f5b6c1959ed751915&size=1536%2C2048.

Here's disgusting conditions on a White G4500. As you can see, the entrance door was stuck and the driver had to kick it out. The entrance door window had fallen out and was repaired with cardboard then stitched with duct tape: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=644293968973925&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xap1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10276974_644293968973925_4934252401104348274_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0409afe19e54f1674ea715213a8da651%26oe%3D54CBE2F8%26__gda__%3D1422389796_911002e50e2a3b420deef01bc884aca6&size=680%2C870.

That being said, the lost luggage isn't really Greyhound's fault as they never transfer luggage. Seeing their "bags" in Wichita Falls could have been someone else's bags, unless a passenger stole them.

The only complaint of a DL3, other than normal breakdowns that happen with every model, was this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203797241237726&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1941313_10203797241237726_226777467539122801_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10155206_10203797241237726_226777467539122801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D87e1f2b96fa65e83307fd4c0c453dc89%26oe%3D54AB210A%26__gda__%3D1422735413_772c1efdf46316dd88126ac289d7fad6&size=1152%2C2048.

Which doesn't really show any problems except the fact that the TVs were covered. That's because Greyhound doesn't even use the TVs and likely removed the insides.

This complaint on a D4505 is about haywire HVAC: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1448515702052358&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xfa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10014360_1448515702052358_450597010_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10153256_1448515702052358_450597010_n.jpg%3Foh%3D077690e6de86f9fa6c0e93dfd2c53693%26oe%3D54C4AC25%26__gda__%3D1420709630_4d8182ac0796b24d2d7390ff0fee0554&size=1408%2C1056.

The driver did miss the exits but Greyhound forbids use of GPS.

White G4500 warped: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=724163114264928&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xap1%2Ft31.0-8%2F1292989_724163114264928_1675206192_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F945990_724163114264928_1675206192_n.jpg%3Foh%3D78dc18338c714e50007d80d1abd13872%26oe%3D54B7CEBD%26__gda__%3D1422817097_89f190eae2fba30f13884f0af791e257&size=1224%2C918.

While one can blame all this on Greyhound maintenance, it's again put against the fact that 102DL3s have no been reported spewing black smoke out the back, leaking massive amounts of rain, windows falling out, broken doors, warped doors, or haywire HVAC.

I'm not saying nothing goes wrong with a 102DL3, but compared to these newer buses?


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## mightyjoe1201

I agree most of that stuff can b blamed on greyhound maintenance. I disagree with you on the bumper of the one bus. That could actually be a driver's fault. May have hit something.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, you can blame the driver, but the bumper ought to be tougher so that it doesn't crack. The DL3 bumpers don't crack, they just take scratches.

Rain pouring into a X3-45 is not Greyhound's fault. No 102DL3 or D4505 has been reported with rain pouring in. How is one supposed to expect a high-quality bus to crack in the roof? That's not maintenance, no one expects to have to maintain a roof "well" enough that it doesn't crack.

White G4500s are generally not Greyhound's fault, they were falling apart when they were new. One caught on fire when it was a few months old. A one-month old G4500 had the fan guard fall off and destroy the fan. A two-month old G4500 had the tag axle fall off. When you buy a new bus, you don't expect it to lose an axle on the Interstate.

Haywire HVAC has been a problem with new D4505s and X3-45s, apparently more so with the X3-45. Other companies have also complained about the D4505 and X3-45 or H3-45. Arrow said the H3-45's Volvo D13 engine was spewing oil.

All I'm saying is that the D4505 and X3-45 probably aren't as durable as the 102DL3. The D4505 seems a bit better than the X3-45 simply because no rain has been seen pouring into the D4505 while it was seen in the X3-45.


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## mightyjoe1201

Is the rain Inside the bus when it's raining out Or when the a/c is on? We have some Gilligan transit buses that rain inside when the a/c is on.


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## mightyjoe1201

I've had bumper crack like that on a truck from hitting something. But yeah, it should have been stronger.


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## mightyjoe1201

Edit, supposed to b Gillig. Not what it says. Sorry.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've seen HVAC rain inside buses as well. North American coaches with windowline air vents sometime have "raindrops" forming on the window escape bar and along the edges of the windows.

Eric told me it's general practice in the industry to open the windows to air out the coaches, and if not closed properly, there could also be raindrops leaking in.

But this?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152483332834634&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Ft31.0-8%2F10273367_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10447875_10152483332834634_6223385242729029774_n.jpg%3Foh%3D361197667897f5c26d76e0f5e744e729%26oe%3D54B947E6%26__gda__%3D1420682992_6ca9aa1eea24bf8f5b6c1959ed751915&size=1536%2C2048.

Well you can see it's raining outside, and there is really rain POURING into the coach and the seat is soaked. Obviously, there was a crack or hole in the roof, presumably where the window meets the roof/parcel rack. This is too ridiculous. The President's bus model should not be so flimsy.


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## rickycourtney

The 102DL3 was a rugged bus, they don't build them like that anymore.

That leaves Greyhound in the tough position of just buying what they can.

That being said John... now that the rush to get ADA compliant is over, I would think that Greyhound would be working with MCI or Prevost to redesign the line-haul coach to the standard they need.


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## mightyjoe1201

That is nasty. I hope greyhound does something. Especially get the manufacturer involved to fix it. And if it's under warranty at the manufacturer expense.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm sure that's a reason why line-haul coach sales are low. With line-haul coaches having barely any advantages over charter/tour coaches, and many disadvantages, all at similar prices, it's definitely time for MCI and Prevost to do it better with the line haul market as it grows fast.

I'm hoping MCI will take the old DL3 blueprints, extend the wheelbase, give it an EPA-compliant Detroit DD13 engine with SCR, update all the lights to LED, and market it to Greyhound and other line-haul operators. Even if the coach turns like a boat, it doesn't really matter for running down the Interstate. I wish they had kept the old rear end with the big grille, it apparently cooled the engine better and provided better performance.

Such a coach should not be used for commuter service, which has not nearly the same demands as long-distance hauling. Commuter coaches can't have the DD13 anyways, that engine is not Buy America complaint.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just found an interior shot of a rebuilt 102DL3 that does not have Patriot PT or Torino VIP, see this: http://us.justdial.com/CA/Stockton/Greyhound_Bus_Lines/near_Commerce_St,washington_St/9Cm0003848-U3RvY2t0b24sQ0EgR3JleWhvdW5kIEJ1cyBMaW5lcw==/photos.

Third photo is the interior of a DL3, with seating that I can't identify. It's actually not Amaya Brasil, maybe it's Amaya PG or high-back Torino Standard. I don't know what PG is but I heard about it and it isn't in production anymore. The lines look like Torino Standard but with high backs instead of the adjustable headrest. Also has a different headliner than the other DL3s, that headliner is grey, most Greyhound DL3s have white headliners.

Yes, that coach must be a rebuild, not a "simple refurb", since it has a wheelchair lift. Unfortunately, the bus number is too blurry and I can't identify it. But it was posted under Stockton so it's possibly one of the few Los Angeles-based DL3s.

Though this DL3 has a grey headliner and the Patriot PT seats: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X6ektA2cq7A/UL5pcl_Je6I/AAAAAAAADdg/UCEf5MPW6p4/s1600/Greyhound%2BBus.jpg.

Seems like Greyhound uses headliners interchangeably.


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## rickycourtney

Those seats look very comfortable, it's just a shame they don't have seat belts.

As to the headliner... Greyhound probably uses whatever comes standard. I would think they would want a solid surface (not fabric), in grey pattern (not one color) as that's most likely to hide dirt and stains.

I still can't get over the pictures of the disgustingly dirty lights on those D4505s. Why would Greyhound maintenance let it get that bad??


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## Swadian Hardcore

Regarding the dirty lights, it's possible that a passenger intentionally made it dirty and the other passenger photographed it before the coach received a cleaning. Or possibly some bug got inside and laid larvae then it rapidly spread all over. I know some bugs are attracted to light.

You know, when I was on #86284, I spilled some coffee when we were going up the Berthoud Pass switchbacks. I tried to clean up all I could, but couldn't do it too obviously. Thankfully, everything was mopped up at Salt Lake City and there was no residue remaining by the time I got back on.

So I'm thinking Greyhound coach cleaners are competent and will clean up a coach when they get the chance to. Unfortunately, it's difficult on some turn-and-burns like the San Francisco-Arcata. There's no cleaners in Arcata so the coach goes two days without cleaning. AFAIK, all they do in Arcata is dump the trash and (possibly) get some fuel. If some bug got on at Oakland and laid larvae that hatched by Arcata, then the return run would be disgusting. Kinda sucks.

Regarding the DL3 seats, yeah they don't have seat belts, but they're old seats and the vehicles are still safe. I wonder what kind of seats those are and how they came to be in that DL3. They're actually probably not Torino nor are they Patriot. Not National or American either.


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## rickycourtney

Oh please that's not larvae (which would be even more gross!!) that's clearly a thick layer of dust.

Also, what reason would a passenger have to intentionally to do that? Assuming they could, which I seriously doubt.

Stop trying to blame something else, this is clearly just disgustingly inadequate maintenance on the part of Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Oh please that's not larvae (which would be even more gross!!) that's clearly a thick layer of dust.
> 
> Also, what reason would a passenger have to intentionally to do that? Assuming they could, which I seriously doubt.
> 
> Stop trying to blame something else, this is clearly just disgustingly inadequate maintenance on the part of Greyhound.


OK, well I guess it was just stuck into turn-and-burn and didn't get a cleaning for a long time. I'm still not sure how a huge layer of dust would get in there, though.

But last time the "roach incident" on #6512 was likely not caused by inadequate cleaning. That incident likely involved one roach that got in and started laying larvae that ended up rapidly hatching and covering the entire coach interior.

Turn-and-burn really sucks for some short-distance coaches. The long-distance ones are better, they have planned "cleaning time" at the major service stops. I agree Greyhound pushes their short-distance coaches too much.

Well look what I saw on Google Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3471721,-120.6195912,3a,15.3y,248.14h,86.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3OqAepiNdSiwAt-FvPnv6w!2e0.

That's D4505 #86319 displaying "SPECIAL".


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OK, well I guess it was just stuck into turn-and-burn and didn't get a cleaning for a long time. I'm still not sure how a huge layer of dust would get in there, though.
> 
> But last time the "roach incident" on #6512 was likely not caused by inadequate cleaning. That incident likely involved one roach that got in and started laying larvae that ended up rapidly hatching and covering the entire coach interior.
> 
> Turn-and-burn really sucks for some short-distance coaches. The long-distance ones are better, they have planned "cleaning time" at the major service stops. I agree Greyhound pushes their short-distance coaches too much.


Sounds like Greyhound needs to find a way to get those coaches in for regular maintenance and during that time, make sure they get a thorough cleaning.

Either that or regularly cycle coaches between short and long runs.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They should, I'm not sure exactly why these short-distance coaches keep having these turn-and-burn problems. Three separate D4505s have been complained about regarding dust accumulation, and all three were on short-distance routes.

Also, this White G is beat up too: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202495319524199&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10568970_10202495319524199_6995274161790573410_n.jpg%3Foh%3D35275c003ad92ab47e077e89d00745db%26oe%3D54AA8FF0%26__gda__%3D1422164198_a48f2de6945debaba425f3f00e725fc0&size=543%2C960.

Many people think the White G is "old" even though it's actually not that old, 2001-2003 isn't that old.

Also, that White G was on a short-distance route.

The cleaner coaches are generally on routes like Reno-Salt lake City-Reno 1308/1345. Those get an overnight rest at the endpoints, plenty of time for cleaning. The routes themselves don't have much turnover, the load comes on at Reno and comes off at SLC. Just one load per day, basically at most 50 people. Whereas you have short-distance coaches carrying as many as 400 people a day with barely any time for cleaning. Those run like extended 24-hour transit buses and they can't really rotate into long-distance runs easily.

I guess Greyhound should just buy more coaches, like, right now. That would allow more time for cleaning per coach.

Greyhound Canada just updated their website again, BTW.


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## rickycourtney

I read an interesting article in Metro magazine that I thought you might enjoy John: http://m.metro-magazine.com/article/1894/how-to-improve-motorcoach-customer-satisfaction


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, Maybe I'm a little slow, but when did dot start requiring seatbelts on coaches?


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## rickycourtney

NHTSA announced the rule late last year. It goes into effect in November 2016. At that point all new buses will be required to have lap and shoulder belts for each seat. It does not retroactively apply to buses already on the road. Greyhound is ahead of the curve here and has been installing seat belts on all new buses since 2009.

Here's more on the NHTSA rule: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/NHTSA+Announces+Final+Rule+Requiring+Seat+Belts+on+Motorcoaches


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## mightyjoe1201

That sucks. I think dot can go scratch. Its gonna make the seats even more uncomfortable then they r. Especially on greyhound. Don't get me wrong, I like greyhound but they really need better seats with more room. I always felt like all the wanted to do was squeeze as many ppl on as possible


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## rickycourtney

I disagree.

To quote from NHTSA... "On average, 21 motorcoach and large bus occupants are killed and 7,934 are injured annually in motor vehicle crashes, according to NHTSA data. Requiring seat belts could reduce fatalities by up to 44 percent and reduce the number of moderate to severe injuries by up to 45 percent."

Motorcoach passengers without seat belts are especially vulnerable in rollover crashes (big windows increase the likelihood of a passenger ejection).

While I agree that Greyhound's current seat belt equipped seats are very uncomfortable, it's not the seat belts that make them uncomfortable. I have rode on other seat belt equipped buses and found the seats and the seat belts to be quite comfortable.

Also, while I think every passenger should wear their seat belt and Greyhound should take measures to remind passengers to buckle up (announcements and lighted signs would be great)... there are currently no laws requiring that passengers wear seat belts on motorcoaches.


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## mightyjoe1201

U have to remember that u need to take what dot says with a grain of salt. They listen only to special interest groups instead of the people who actually know what's going on. They also like to inflate their figures to make it look better. Found out the hard way when I drove truck. They only listen to ones that hate trucks and buses.

Also, except for a few times, I have never had a comfortable seat on a greyhound. If I didn't know better I'd swear they put uncomfortable seats with no room. Lol. Wish they had seats like most of the charter co and some trailways co.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound was one of the companies that came out in support of the new NHTSA regulations.

Again I respectfully disagree, I think seat belts on buses are a good thing.


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## Swadian Hardcore

mightyjoe1201 said:


> That sucks. I think dot can go scratch. Its gonna make the seats even more uncomfortable then they r. Especially on greyhound. Don't get me wrong, I like greyhound but they really need better seats with more room. I always felt like all the wanted to do was squeeze as many ppl on as possible


Greyhound actually configures their coaches with _less _seating in order to create extra legroom. However, Greyhound's newest X3-45s and D4505s have a type of seat called "Premier". Premier, despite its name, is a very uncomfortable seat. It is made like a reclining version of a school bus seat. It has minimal padding and is painful to sit in unless you sit on a pillow. Moreover, the seat is set very close to the floor, reducing legroom.

So even though Greyhound tried to create extra legroom in the X3-45 and D4505, they ended up reduced legroom by using the Premier seats. AFAIK, they ordered Premier seats for a couple of reasons:


They looked nice and Greyhound needed to improve its reputation.
They had seat belts.
They had "containment", complying with FMVSS school bus standards.
Greyhound's new X3-45s and D4505s would have 55 seats as standard, but Greyhound only put 50 seats in them. So they definitely didn't try to squeeze on as many people as possible, they _tried_ to create more room for passengers, but they just used the wrong type of seat, Premier, which ended up with less room. This basically proves that seating type does _not_ go with "more room".

Right now what Greyhound needs isn't more room, they need better seating. Thankfully, word on the street is that Greyhound will order something else next time, no more Premiers. In the meantime, we'll just have to deal with the Premiers and hope we get to ride a DL3 or Blue G, which have much better seating.

BTW, most Greyhound buses in the Northeast are X3-45s. Most Greyhound buses in the West are D4505s.



mightyjoe1201 said:


> U have to remember that u need to take what dot says with a grain of salt. They listen only to special interest groups instead of the people who actually know what's going on. They also like to inflate their figures to make it look better. Found out the hard way when I drove truck. They only listen to ones that hate trucks and buses.
> 
> Also, except for a few times, I have never had a comfortable seat on a greyhound. If I didn't know better I'd swear they put uncomfortable seats with no room. Lol. Wish they had seats like most of the charter co and some trailways co.


Those few times were probably on a DL3. The Blue G has only been around for about a year or two, they used to be the crappy White Gs but Greyhound rebuilt them and now they are far better. The Blue G has lots of legroom and comfortable seating.

The original White G had comfortable seating and regular legroom but they were so terribly flimsy from the beginning that most passengers felt very uncomfortable in them. One two-month-old White G lost its tag axle at highway speed.

Greyhound used to have their MC-12s which had good seating but they were narrowbody 96" coaches and they were configured standard with 47 seats, no extra legroom. So they were still uncomfortable despite having good seating. The MC-12s were Greyhound's last 96" coaches and all have been retired.

The DL3s always had comfortable seating and they originally had standard 55-seat configuration with regular legroom, but during the rebuilds, Greyhound took out a row and increased the legroom. Now they only have 51 seats. In terms of comfort, the DL3 would be the best. It has extra legroom and comfortable seating. Greyhound Canada has some VIP DL3s which have winged headrests.

Some charter companies and Trailways companies use the Painful Premiers too. The other ones use seats similar to Greyhound's DL3. Depending on the company, they'll have regular or some extra legroom. So they're generally the same as Greyhound in terms of seating and legroom.


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## mightyjoe1201

Legroom was never a problem for me. I'm kinda short. Only 5'6". It was width that bothered me. If I had two seats to myself I was fine but if I had to share I felt like a sardine. Yeah, the dl3's o was on were ok for room. I thought the mc12's had more room then any even tho I know they were only 96". I always through greyhound could invest in slightly wider seats.

I'm hoping to take a short one or two day trip this weekend if greyhounds web site ever cooperates. Keeps telling me I need to enter a starting point even tho I did.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AFAIK, they ordered Premier seats for a couple of reasons:
> 
> 
> They looked nice and Greyhound needed to improve its reputation.
> They had seat belts.
> They had "containment", complying with FMVSS school bus standards.


Swadian hit the nail on the head here, but I wanted to clarify one thing... the FMVSS containment standards ensure that the seats are designed to contain passengers who aren't wearing a seat belt in a non-rollover accident (like a school bus seat does), but new motorcoaches are not required to meet school bus standards.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'll have to do some research after work. It has me curious as to how that works containment without a seatbelt.


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## mightyjoe1201

If the govt is gonna push so-called safety requirements for passengers then I'd like to know when they r gonna make bus drivers follow the same regs as truck drivers. Bus drivers still only need an 8hrs break where a truck driver needs 10hrs.


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## Swadian Hardcore

In terms of seat width, the 102"-wide 102DL3 obviously has wider seats than the 96"-wide MC-12. Both of them have been outfitted with many different seat models.

Greyhound's seats have the same width as all the charter and tour seats, so again, I don't see why you say they intentionally made their coaches less comfortable. They can't put in wider seats and retain the 2-2 config, the aisle is already only 14" wide. Also, putting in narrower seats doesn't mean any extra seating capacity with the standard 2-2 config.

I don't see any evidence or logic that Greyhound could put in wider seat or that they intentionally put in narrow seats or less comfortable seats like the Premier. At the time (2009), Premier was considered the safest seat in the industry, though now competitors are challenging that position.

Please tell me how Greyhound is supposed to put in wider seats without taking out the armrests or squishing people in the aisle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14798081385/sizes/l.


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## mightyjoe1201

Maybe it's just the way the seats are designed. It always felt like they were narrower. Maybe it also means I need to lose some weight too. Lol. It has been about 4 years since I was in a greyhound. I was on both a dl3 and a mc12 that trip. Just seemed the seats on the charters I've been in were a bit wider. I will say this though. The seats at the time really hurt my back. Its like they were curved too much. It had to b before they removed seats cause the seats barely reclined. I'm hoping I can find somewhere I can go over the weekend that I'd get to ride a greyhound again so I can see what the buses looks like and what the seats r like. Unfortunatrlly it looks like it may b only trailways I get to ride.


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## mightyjoe1201

Please don't get me wrong. I am not bashing greyhound. Except for one trip where the bus was 4 hrs late I think it was. I've had good experiences with them. Especially the drivers except for the one that was so late. He was a jerk.


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## Swadian Hardcore

4 years ago? That does make sense. In 2010, the MC-12s were getting retired so it's possible they had broken seats with no recline. The 102DL3s were also a bit worn out by that time, that's why they were rebuilt 2010-2014. I don't understand why the seats hurt your back though, because those coaches didn't have the Premiers and those Premiers really, REALLY hurt.

The charter seats would have been the same width as the DL3s though wider than the MC-12.

These are the Premiers on the D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15424712185.

And Premiers on the X3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14716298109.

They look nice but they are definitely Painful Premiers.


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## mightyjoe1201

The seats seemed to have a curve which was probably a form of lumbar support but it wad too much. I also felt like I was leaning back with it all the way up. I did forget that the bus that wad late wad I believe a pre cost because I remember thinking when did greyhound get prevost? I had never seen one in their livery till then only mci.

I think I finally found a trip I can take this weekend that will b on greyhound. Only thing is I have to drive to Harrisburg. If I go from Hazleton I get there too late and leave to early. Planning on a trip to Pittsburgh. Will let you guys know how it went and what equipment I was on.


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## mightyjoe1201

Those pictures finally loaded. The seats do look comfortable but I can imagine how bad they r. Hope if I do get to go over the weekend that I don't get to experience them. Guess I should bring a cushion just in case.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If you had too much lumbar support, it must have been Patriot PT seating. Those seat are designed more for sleeping than for sitting. But they recline a ton and you say they didn't recline much at all. Then again, perhaps those seats were worn in 2010 and needed repairs. Currently the rebuilt DL3s' common Patriot PT seating have 55 degrees of recline, it actually doesn't recline that much at the axis but it curves so far back that the seatback itself reclines to 55 degrees. Kinds an ingenious design if you want a good seat for sleeping without using big, heavy, expensive sleeper seats, but some people find it bad for sitting.

These are the DL3 seats (Patriot PT): http://s3-media2.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/MefI--vJTXPFUhTEfvouIQ/l.jpg.

When you recline them back they go to ridiculous angles, but in the daytime most people don't do it.

I personally find them comfortable and far better than the Painful Premiers because the Premiers have zero support, it just sags like a bag.

Don't drive to Harrisburg, just drive to Scranton if you really just want to ride a Greyhound. But don't do it this weekend because the fares are much cheaper when you book in advance. Most likely you'll just get a X3-45 with Painful Premiers.


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## mightyjoe1201

Unfortunately I only get to book a day or two in advance as I rarely know too far in advance when I'm gonna b off let alone what day or days I'll b off. I'll have to check Scranton out but it still may b the same problem as leaving from Hazleton. That's the bus I'd get here anyway. Maybe they have one that bypasses Hazleton.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound stops at Scranton: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules/pageset.html.

Doesn't stop at Hazelton though.

Closest they get is heading down I-80 on the New York-Chicago and New York-Detroit Limiteds. No stopping of course, just a rest stop at Milesburg. Limiteds are really fast long-distance runs with minimal stopping.

Speaking of Limiteds, it seems like Greyhound has rebranded their Los Angeles-Portland/Seattle/Vancouver runs as Limiteds even though many of them still make a bunch of stops. Technically, there's already "Greyhound Express" on the Portland-Seattle-Vancouver except they're just rebranded locals. Also, if one tries to book Sacramento-Portland, most of those are branded as Limiteds.

Somewhat weird but I hope Greyhound will turn those into actual Limiteds.

It also seems like Greyhound has a few ex-Americanos White D4505s and White J4500s based out of Los Angeles. I wonder what they are like inside. They appear to have 425hp Detroit 60 EGR engines.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'll have to either try again when I have WiFi or stop at my folks house to use a computer after work tomorrow. I don't have one right now. I can't access the timetables from my phone right now.


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## mightyjoe1201

I thought the series 60 engines weren't California compliant?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Detroit 60 EGR is California-complaint. Greyhound recently sent a lot of coaches with Detroit 60 EGR to Los Angeles. The vast majority of Greyhound coaches in California and around there are blue D4505s but they also have some ex-Americanos White G4500s, 102DL3s, J4500s, and D4505s, and Blue X3-45s. And even some ex-Americanos Blue 102DL3s and a tiny amount of Greyhound's own blue DL3s. So yeah, a bit of everything except the Blue G, but in actuality, almost totally D4505.

Some of the Americanos X3-45s have been repainted into Greyhound livery.

This is a common sight in California: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15236430111/sizes/l. 

That's a 2010 D4505 with a very late model Detroit 60 EGR, appears to be a 14L. I believe it was built on Greyhound's special request as the Detroit 60 was not a standard option by 2010. And it has Painful Premier seats, for that matter.

Yes, it's Greyhound's 100th Anniversary.

Common sight here in Reno: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15106814867/sizes/l. 
In San Francisco: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busdudedotcom/14796426721/sizes/l. 
They keep on coming: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busdudedotcom/13573697303/sizes/l. 

Endless D4505s in the West. You probably won't find much in the East because most are out West.


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## mightyjoe1201

That had to be special request. Detroit had stopped the 50/60 series in 2004. That's why I thought they weren't California compliant.

Was americanos a division of greyhound?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Detroit most definitely did not drop the Series 60 in 2004. It was listed as a standard option for the MCI D4505 as late as the 2009 model year. It was also the standard option for Prevost's X3-45 and H3-45.

Americanos is very confusing. This should explain Americanos better: https://www.greyhound.com/en/Newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=29&year=1999. 

So basically, Americanos was oringally an independent Mexican operator. Greyhound formed SITA in 1997 to inaugurate Greyhound Mexico service. SITA was basically a subsidiary like BoltBus, except Spanish-speaking for Mexicans. SITA bought 49% of the original Americanos and various amounts of other international bus operators, then used the Americanos, Amigos, and Cruceros brand names to operate everything. It appears that at some point, SITA also "borrowed" some Greyhound DL3s (#6200-6205) for a new operation called Autobuses Lationos, running Chicago-Laredo. The operation failed and the DL3s were returned to Greyhound. Amigos died early on and SITA was apparently disbanded and renamed to Americanos, then merged with Cruceros.

Then all the ex-SITA routes and equipment were registered under Americanos but some of the coaches were still branded Cruceros.

In 2013, Americanos merged with Greyhound. So at some point, SITA must have purchased the remainder of Americanos.

Then there was a Mexican company called Golden State Lines based from Los Angeles that was independently-owned but contracted with Greyhound for maintenance and leased some equipment. The operation was shut down due to "trafficking" and police temporarily closed the Los Angeles terminal, causing massive disruptions to Greyhound and SITA operations.

Most of the SITA coaches were Viaggios, G4100s, and G4500s. They apparently also used 102D3s and 102DL3s for US domestic routes. At the border, the American coaches would be switched to a Mexican one like the Viaggio.

All this is extraordinarily confusing.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's another X3-45 in poor condition: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/15480391092/sizes/k/.

At least one of the windows appears to have fallen off and gotten replaced. The rear fender flares have fallen off. Some of the hatches appear to be warped.

These older 102DL3s are in better shape:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/15457643856/sizes/k/,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/14895134961/sizes/l.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok. I'll have to take your word on the 60 series. Gonna double check with my boss cause he said when the u ordered our 2005 model year buses that Detroit had stopped offering the 50 series at the end of 2004 production year and the u had to go with come a parts.

My former boss was who told me that the 60 series was stopped to. He didn't know much about trucks or engines so it don't surprise me about that.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I believe the Detroit 50 was indeed discontinued in 2004, I'm not sure. I just know the 60 remained much longer for on-highway trucks and buses. As evidence, look at this Pre-Owned 2008 MCI D4505 Standard, powered by a Detroit 60 EGR 435hp coupled to a ZF transmission: http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/1546BA08C52517C285257CE6005B29C8?editdocument. 

Also, Greyhound Lines 2010 MCI D4505 #86352 shows its large single radiator fan and Detroit 60-H EGR engine while parked for maintenance at Los Angeles in July 2014: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0341747,-118.2374482,3a,15y,80.45h,82.51t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suOLpd5BI6Ta-OpStL1o2Ag!2e0.

In MCIs, most Caterpillar engines are painted yellow, Cummins red, and Detroit blue-green. I think the old two-stroke Detroits like the 8V71N or 6V92TA were white or blue-green, the new DD13 is grey.


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## mightyjoe1201

I've never driven a coach, only a transit bus, but I always was partial to Detroit. Especially the 50/60 series. Cats r great engines at least for trucks but it seemed they weren't as good in the buses I've ridden on. As far as I'm concerned come a parts aka Cummins are horrible. I can attest to them in trucks and transit buses. More problems then they are worth.

Does anyone know if mci, prevost, and other coach manufacturers use voith transmissions?


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## mightyjoe1201

The colors you mentioned for the engines are about the same as trucks with the exception of the 60 series Detroit. That was grey. The two strokes were those plus also an ugly green. At least the 6v71 that's in my bosses antique bus is an ugly green.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MCI currently offers Allison and ZF transmissions. Prevost offers Allison and Volvo. Van Hool offers Allison only. No Voith. MCI used to offer Fuller and Eaton-Fuller, don't know if the others used to offer those.

CATs were trouble when Greyhound Canada tried them on their 1997 102DL3s. AFAIK, they were efficient but difficult to maintain and were no more efficient than Detroit. These coaches have now been retired. They were coupled to Fuller T11607D manuals I believe.

Cummins has been trouble on Greyhound US' newest 2013 D4505s. They guzzle fuel and have "regen errors". Unfortunately, Cummins is the only real option for transit buses (Buy America) now that Detroit no longer makes the Series 50.

Detroit seems to do the best but the Detroit 60 EGR has had some problems with fuel guzzling and some fires. Greyhound's 2010 D4505s, powered by Detroit 60 EGR, had multiple minor fires and three major fires that destroyed the coaches. The minor fires were apparently in the engine compartment but the major fires appear to have started in the tag axle wells instead. Fire suppression systems are now standard in the D4505s and the newer 2013 ones have such systems, made by Amerax.

Detroit 60 without EGR continues to perform very well on the DL3s.

I live in the West and all we see here are D4505s, both with Cummins and with Detroit.

Oh, regarding the Premiers, they apparently redid the design and came out with the new Premier LS in 2012 but to me it feels like the same as the Premier, PAINFUL and UNCOMFORTABLE. But OK if you sit on a pillow.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm glad none of the bus makers offer voith. We have them in our 04 and newer gilligs and have problems with them. I blew one up without trying. Took over a month just to get the parts from Germany.

Its a shame that the newer engines don't have the fuel economy ad the older engines. Guess we can thank epa for that. I saw a while back a discussion about that. It started with the ultra low sulfur diesel. Then with the emissions stuff it made it even worse. Too bad the old two stroke Detroit's are considered too dirty. Miss those old things.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The current Cummins ISX uses similar fuel consumption as the old two-stroke Detroits but they don't have nearly as much emissions so it's not too bad. Fuel efficiency peaked in the 1995-2003 period with the original Detroit 60 without EGR.

Look what this is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/aerial-photos-new-york-ny/3468622669/sizes/l. 

#2544, a "mobile garage" for Greyhound, converted from a passenger MC-12.

When I was in Denver, I caught this D4505 that had caught on fire: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15257196879/sizes/l. 

As far as the Detroit 60 EGR goes, I think the last MCI to ever be built with that engine was serial number 59854 (1M86DMHA9BP059854), a 2011 model year (2010 build year) for Greyhound as #86407. I don't know where it's based out of, haven't seen the 86400s in the West, but I know #86401 is/was a FL-owned unit.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MCI News:

Arrow Stage orders more J4500s: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2014-10-07-arrow.htm. 

These J4500s bring their J-fleet up to 61 units and E/J production counts have hit 7,000 units.

MCI presents redesigned D4500CT at APTA Expo Houston: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2014-10-08-apta.htm.

The redesigned D4500CT motorcoaches have the J4500-style interior with the new amenity modules that include seat belt signs and large, LED reading lights. The new coaches are also equipped with all-disc brakes from Bendix. The new amenity modules do represent an improvement over Prevost's X3-45 modules that don't have seat belt signs. It appears that MCI is trying to make a push with the D4500CT and possibly D4505 against Prevost's X3-45.


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## rickycourtney

Where did you see that it has a J4500 style interior?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2014-10-01-br/.

Also, very weird seating in those coaches, not from any of the big three, National, American, and Amaya.

Well, perhaps Greyhound is considering this now that it has all-disks. Prevost has all-disks. Just needs Cummins to make the ISX12 more efficient or get a DD13.

I still prefer the old D4500 parcel racks with the indirect courtesy lighting, I wish they had simply plopped the new modules to the old racks. They seem to fit the rest of the coach more. The new interior has bright direct lighting.

Also, I hope they'll consider lowering the deck back down and possibly extending the wheelbase.


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## rickycourtney

Hopefully some pictures of this bus will pop up online... there's just that one lousy shot of the interior.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This video shows a NJT D4500CT with the redesigned interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzrP-kWSNx0.

It also received new LED headlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw6yMl59Ipk.

This treatment does not seem to have been applied to the D4505. I think it looks better and should be more durable as well. The new LED headlights are individually cased in stainless steel cubes. That redesigned D4500CT does lack flush-mounted windows like the previous D4500CT.

The newest D4505 order announcement, which is getting rare these days, still shows the old headlights, so it presumably has the old interior as well: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2014-06-26-shuttle-service.htm.

Edit: The new D4500CT photographed in service on NJT Route 139 Lakewood to New York City: https://www.flickr.com/photos/shaneakacaitsith/14677682838/sizes/l.

Would not mind Greyhound getting some of these!


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## rickycourtney

Those high-mounted lights make the interior look a lot brighter! That's good for commuter express service.

To my understanding, even though it comes standard on the D4500CT, you can elect to not get the flush mounted bonded windows. NJT also appears to have ordered stainless steel skirts.

I think this supports my theory that a redesigned D4505 is in the works...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hopefully it is in the works. I personally prefer the old angular roof cap of the original D4500. The high-mounted lights should not be a major problem for intercity service either, since Greyhound simply turns off all interior lighting when the entrance door close. The G4500 has similar lighting.

I think the skirts are always there but they can be smooth, treated, and painted over, or they can be ribbed for silversides.

You can elect to get tons of others things with the D4500CT, like the half-width destination sign, enclosed parcel racks, video systems, lavatories, old fenders, sedan door, even the old headlights.

If MCI offers a more efficient engine like the DD13, Greyhound would likely buy this motorcoach. Prevost still hasn't shown any indications of a redesign.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm taking a trip on greyhound to Pittsburgh, Pa tomorrow. Will let you guys know how the trip out and back goes and what kind of buses I get. Will try to get some pictures if I can of buses and post if I can figure that out.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Which schedules are you taking? If you take any schedule that ends in Pittsburgh (any schedule number not in the 1000s), most likely you'll get a X3-45. If you take a schedule that's going to Indianapolis, Saint Louis, Kansas City, Denver, or Los Angeles (schedules in the 1000s), you'll probably get a 102DL3 or Blue G.

1000s are usually the long-distance schedules that don't get in stuck in turn-and-burn rotations. Those and the 3000s go on the Turnpike. The 4000s go through Altoona on US 322 and US 22. Hope it goes well!

So are you really going to drive to Harrisburg or are you just going to ride a Trailways bus there?


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, driving to Harrisburg. I checked schedule times for Hazleton and else here and it don't work. I would get there too late and have to leave too early. I want to spend time with friends, not get there, sleep and come home. Lol.

I'm taking schedule 1651 out and schedule 1679 back. Both r straight shots with only a rest break.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Aha, both ways you're taking long-distance schedules. 1651 is a New York City-Kansas City. 1679 is a Saint Louis-New York City. Probably DL3 or Blue G. Good thing they aren't stuck in turn-and-burn, the units are cleaned at Pittsburgh. There's lots of X3-45s in the East but they don't often go to Saint Louis or Kansas City.

Everything's so different in the West. Once you get past Denver or Dallas, it's just greatly increasing amounts of D4505s. Well there's Blue G's out of Denver but you get past Reno and Las Vegas and it's pretty much all D4505. A model quite rare in the East, but in the West there's so many of them you get their image and their smell imprinted in your brain, from the chubby nose to the round black fenders to the black stripe at the top to the flat smooth rear. They have a thick flowery smell. I wish we got more variety, but that's the way it is. Oh yeah, the windows, the seats, the parcel racks, the sound too, the deep Cummins or the smoother Detroit powerplant. And the slow acceleration, stiff handling, even the passengers can feel it, it's the same every time.


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## mightyjoe1201

Lol. That sounds soon familiar. Reminds me of the way capital trailways of pa used to be. Only with our the flowery smell.

I really wish greyhound serviced Hazleton instead of Susquehanna and Fullington. Or at least where the two offered better schedules here. Maybe next year when I get vacation time again I'll have to take a longer trip. I'd have a full week. This was spur of the moment when my boss told me I had a rare weekend off.

Will definitely let you guys know what I get for buses and what ones are in the areas. Hopefully can upload pics too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If you look at this map you'll see Greyhound never served Hazelton: http://www.chicagorailfan.com/greyhrpa.html. 

But Trailways always had a big presence in Pennsylvania. They've served Hazelton for a long time. Closest Greyhound got was Berwick on the Harrisburg-Binghamton segment. Not sure if that was its own independent route or if it was part of some longer route. That was before I-81, and it ran on US 11.

With bus prices rising, a lot of the smaller operators are really having to shell out a large amount of their cash reserves to buy equipment. Prices for the stock D4505 have now gone up to $545,000.

Fullington got a grant to buy a new 2010 D4505, which has Amaya Torino Standard seats with seat belts: http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impact/photo/fullington-trailways2jpg-bdddbab05225e5c4.jpg. At the time, a D4505 cost only $500,000. Fullington received $400,000 in a grant for the D4505. 

I went to Fullington's website multiple times and found it virtually unusable. It was very confusing to navigate. Fullington has a bad reputation and their fleet of early J4500s is among the worst as far as "true" MCIs go. Susquehanna seems to do it better, but they're a tiny operator strapped of cash and unable to expand. Greyhound could expand on rural routes using their new Greyhound Connect fleet of GCA cutaways. They refuse to use full-size motorcoaches on these "tiny" routes anymore.


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## mightyjoe1201

I know what you mean about Fullington' s website. That's a co that could take lessons from gli when it comes to maintenance. Many times we've had. One if their buses broke down at out station for days at a time. The last time we had a hard time squeezing around as we came from the other side of the station. Trailways shares our new station with us from public transit.

We had better service before capital went under.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, so what exactly is a gca cutaway


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## mightyjoe1201

Oh, I almost forgot. Had a rare sight today. There was a charter co from somewhere in New York that came thru town with an old greyhound mc12. Unfortunately I couldn't get the fleet number written down and don't remember it. It looked like a gli fleet number too. Knew for sure was a former dog cause of the blue stripe above the Windows. It was in good shape too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm actually not exactly sure what a GCA cutaway is except it's basically a little shuttle van on a light truck chassis. Like this: http://transitzac.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/connect-cutaway.jpg. 

Could not find a better shot, so, yeah. Never seen one in Greyhound service but I know they're on the roster and running some Greyhound Connect routes, basically rural connectors.

Greyhound's weird when it comes to maintenance. The actually mechanics are well-trained and maintain the buses properly, keep them nice and clean and operational. The problem is when short-distance buses get stuck in turn-and-burn. That's when Greyhound maintenance gets in trouble. It's not so much the maintenance department, it's the dispatchers locking units in turn-and-burn for as much as three months, but then again, given Greyhound's fleet shortage, do you run a good bus through the ground or relieve it with a bad bus like a White G? Even worse, driver complaints about a coach stuck in turn-and-burn can be ignored unless it's a serious safety issue like "soft" brakes.

So now it's time for Greyhound to buy even more units, though not in as large numbers as last time.

MC-12s can't run scheduled service anymore except for really small operators. Otherwise, they can only run charters. No wheelchair lift.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound Canada faces unexpected student anger at normal Thanksgiving fare hikes: http://www.citynews.ca/2014/10/10/greyhound-ticket-price-jump-leaves-students-fuming/.

It should be noted that Greyhound seems to be encouraging people with cars to ride them as an alternative rather than people without cars to ride them because they have nothing else to ride. Thus, Greyhound ostracizes students in cities like Reno, where students have gone to cheap, "hip" transport like Megabus, while Greyhound sees a popularity boost with families.

Note the X3-45 with replaced window, the plain-white DL3, and the blue DL3 pulling a new blue trailer.

Greyhound Canada is currently in financial difficulty after inability to make profits in Eastern Canada with too many unprofitable QuickLink commuter routes and too many individual variations of each route. More problems probably come from turn-and-burn. Profits seem to be better in Western Canada.


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## railiner

Re: Hazleton....

Swadian's correct...Greyhound never served Hazleton, but Continental Trailways did from the time they acquired Edwards Motor Transit Company (Lakes-To Sea System), until their end. They had extensive east-west service thru Hazleton on routes from New York and Philadelphia to Williamsport, and on to Dubois and Cleveland. Connections north and south at both Williamsport and Dubois. They basically purchased Edwards's to have local 'rights' along the newly built Interstate 80 across Pennsylvania, and rerouted their New York - Chicago (and beyond) thru services that way. Greyhound also ran I-80, but basically closed doors from Stroudsburg to Youngstown

Capitol Trailways ran north and south thru Hazleton on their Binghamton-Scranton-Harrisburg-Washington route. Greyhound, as mentioned, ran US-11 thru Berwick and Sunbury.

Greyhound operated its express runs via the Turnpike Extension. Capitol ran I-81 when it was built....

Susquehanna has a weak shadow of the extensive service that Hazleton once enjoyed....


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## mightyjoe1201

Yes. Greyhound never served Hazleton. But not too long ago we had much better service here. Susquehanna has much better schedules thru Hazleton them what Fullington has. Fullington had actually cur schedule because they felt Hazleton was too small for more then the few times they come thru.

I've noticed Susquehanna has been doing pretty good lately. Enough so that they have been buying some new buses again. Yesterday they had a brand new D4505 sitting at out station headed to Philly.


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## mightyjoe1201

Just starting my trip to Pittsburgh. I got lucky and got 102dl3 number 52672. Its a beautiful bus. I think the newer seats in it are wider then the last time I was on one. Didn't count seats but I do know they kept all three seats next to the restroom. That's where I'm sitting right now. Only complaint is that inside is kinda nasty. Hope Pittsburgh cleans it.


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow. Cool bus driver. During his announcement he explained where all the emergency exits are and how to operate them. Never had a driver do that before. I got lucky, its an express between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh with only a short rest stop. No other stops.


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## mightyjoe1201

Can anyone tell me how to upload a picture? I can't figure out how to do it. Thanks.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok,finally figured out how to post a picture. Will hopefully have more later and tomorrow. This is inside of bus 52672


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## railiner

Thanks for taking us along for the 'virtual ride'.....


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## mightyjoe1201

Your welcome. Here's a picture of some damage on that bus. Other then that was a ok ride. Seats all the way in the back area bit uncomfortable


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, you rode #52672? I rode that one last year on Reno-Salt Lake City Schedule 1314. Rode at the front, it was smooth and quiet. I remember the old driver managed to pass three trucks in a row on Golconda. It must be an All 48-States unit then, likely based from Denver. One time it was spotted on New York City-Indianapolis.

Last time I rode it, it was clean. They'll probably clean it in Pittsburgh. Which part is the nasty part?

This is a rare unit. It was leased to Golden State Lines of Los Angeles. When that line was shut down due to "trafficking", the vehicles were returned to Greyhound. Greyhound numbered them with the serial number instead of their own DL3 numbering series. So #52672 is the last five digits of the VIN, 1M8PDMRA7YP052672. It didn't have a wheelchair lift until Greyhound rebuilt it. Only 4 are in Greyhound's fleet.

Here's the exterior photo I got when I rode it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9944534005/sizes/l.


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## mightyjoe1201

It was nasty around where I say in the very back. I think my seat mate may have been to blame. Looked like he threw his trash all over the floor.

I wad wondering why it had a strange bus number. Lol. Thanks for the info on it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like it hit something.  Don't know how they can fix that without body shop repairs at Richmond or maybe Dallas. Seems like lots of DL3s take damaged at the right rear portion of the wheelbase. Perhaps drivers have a tendency to bump that part in some kind of maneuver.

Seats at the very back are always uncomfortable. They get squished in against the slope where the top of the engine compartment meets the cabin. Then you have reduced recline as well.

Yeah, I hope your seat mate got off at Pittsburgh so that the janitor could clean the floor without it immediately getting dirty again, LOL. I hope they fix that DL3 as well. Still tougher than the X3-45 that had a flood of rain or fender flares falling off. A recent photo showed one that had lost its headlight casing as well. ^_^


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## mightyjoe1201

Looks like a driver probably hit a high curb somewhere. It happens a lot. Outside of that damage it was in great shape.

The back seats didn't even have any recline. They also felt hard as a rock. Don't know if I'm just remembering wrong but the other seats seemed wider then last time I road a greyhound. Aisle deemed narrower too.

Yeah, my seat mate got off along with everyone else. He didn't have a choice cause they were supposed to clean and service it before the next driver took off.


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## mightyjoe1201

My seat mate was going to Cincinnati so I'm not sure if he was staying with that schedule or transferring


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## Swadian Hardcore

He would've gotten back on and ridden #52672 until Columbus, transfer point for Cincinnati. Oh great.

How's Pittsburgh? I heard Greyhound refurbished the terminal there.


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## mightyjoe1201

They did. This is my second time at it. Really nice inside and easy to move around and find the gate the bus is at. Some of the workers have an attitude but I put that to it being a big city.


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## mightyjoe1201

Just saw this piece of junk leaving bus station in Pittsburgh, Pa. Unfortunately I didn't get the bus number or destination in time. I looked u and snapped the picture as it was turning. This is a white G isn't it?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yep, that's a White G. I'm glad its tag axle didn't just pop right off or one of the windows falling off. Or the bus catching on fire.

One time I rode White G #7104, and the tag axle made a grinding sound every time the driver turned. The same coach also smelled like burning plastic, was covered in graffiti, and the lavatory door was broken, it would slide around all the time.

I also heard of an incident when a passenger vomited in a White G that already smelled like burning plastic. The passenger had vomited in the lavatory, but the door was broken. So the other passengers were all driven to near-vomiting while the driver fell into despair.

I've seen so many horrible White G's, aw man, multiple ones with holes, cracks, bumper lights punched out, hatches warped/dislodged, holes on the INSIDE, ugh!


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## mightyjoe1201

After the horror stories I've seen on here about the white Gs I hope nothing happens to the bus I'm supposes to get later. I don't want any chance of getting one. I can't believe greyhound let then run in such horrible shape as long as they did.


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## mightyjoe1201

Looks like I may b getting blue G number 7198. They just moved it from the gate that I pick up my bus from. Sign showed NYC. Hope it's a good bus if I do get it. Most if what I've been seeing here are X3-45's. On the outside they look like they are in good shape. No dents or anything.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Blue G's have lots of legroom. #7029 was the only Blue G I've ridden so far. It was comfortable and much better than the White G. The White G's were crap and they really need to get rid of all of them. Then again, it seems like Greyhound is slow to act. The G's were built 2001-2003. In 2004, Greyhound tried to fix the issues and asked MCI to make them in Winnipeg (they were made in Sahagun, Mexico), but MCI Winnipeg found they could not be assembled. Then Greyhound tried to replace then with Van Hool C2045s for cheap, but during tests, the C2045s were barely any better than the White G. Then Greyhound put the G's through massive overhauls at high cost, but the repairs didn't really fix anything except preventing the tag axle from falling off (which happened to a two-month-old G). Greyhound ridership was at an all-time low due to the G problems, and Greyhound was broke, so they gave up on the G and kept running them, with no money for replacements.

It ended being the DL3 that pulled Greyhound out of financial trouble and facilitated the comeback they are currently making.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ad they say, oldies but goodies. I know for a lot of us they aren't that old but still. I think they May have been one of the last of the great MCI buses built. From what I've heard from my boss and the other bus co our city uses as a contractor for the city buses, the newest models aren't as good of quality. Actually, the one 102DL3 my boss owned he hated. He preferred the MC-9's and older.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Must have been an early-model 102DL3, 1992-1994. They had "mid-frame problems". MCI extended their classic platform-integral semi-monocoque structure to 45'5". Moved the HVAC, batteries, and fuel tank to the middle, also introduced the new Detroit 60 engine. Testing started in 1988 with a 8V92TA, I believe. When production started in 1992, not everything was worked out yet. The 8V92TA was offered until 1994. The 1995 model year was a great improvement and was not much changed until the 2004 model year when MCI cut quality due to financial problems.

Some of the quality cuts included lessening of rivets and later expanded to thinner bumpers, etc.


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## mightyjoe1201

Don't know what year the bus was but I do know it's still running around on charters and tours. The other city contractor bought it off my boss when he gave up the charters and tours side of his co. He is old school and would rather an older mechanical bus then anything with a computer.


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## mightyjoe1201

This is not going to b a fun trip. One, we got a jerk for a driver he was actually yelling at everyone. He even tried to say that federal law states bags must be in the overheads only. Nothing in seats or under seats. I know he's wrong there. Plus, one of the passengers that reboarded said it smelled like carp. Litterally. The seats a are not the greatest. The girl across from me has a broken seat next to the window.. maintenance did a bad job of cleaning the bus other then spraying some kind of air freshener and maybe cleaning the restroom.


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## mightyjoe1201

I did get blue G number 7198.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, first pic is of the side if a seat.it says FAINSA on it. Are any of you familiar with these seats?

Took a quick pic if the inside before the driver could say something. Besides being very thorough about what to do in an emergency, including how all exits work, he Tod us all picture taking was against greyhound policy and he would take the camera. Don't trust him.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Dang, I guess not all Blue G's are so great! I thought those seats were made by Amaya, I had no idea they were FAINSA. They're a manufacturer from Spain that makes a lot of train seats. No idea how their seats are or what models they have. Well, the floor seems to be clean enough. Which are the dirty parts?

The White G always had a weird plastic smell and they would spray air freshener to cover up the smell. However, the smell was not present on my only Blue G ride #7029, except for a slight hint of plastic and gasoline, even though it burns diesel, not gasoline.

Yeah, that driver is a jerk if he said that. Man, some of those Eastern drivers seem to have a grudge against everybody. Even Kit didn't say that, he just said no bags should be blocking the aisle in case someone at night wanted to use the restroom and tripped since no lights are on after the door closes. Also, the driver of #7029 was nice, he let me take all the pictures I wanted, he said he didn't care.


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## mightyjoe1201

There's dust and dirt and pieces of paper along most of the aisle.

The seats or not really the most comfortable. They are narrower then the ones on the DL3 I came out on. They also don't come forward enough. At least for me. I feel like I'm leaning back further then I'm comfortable with. Would have been nice if the power outlets matched up with the seats. The one for mine I have to squeeze my plug between the seat in front and the wall. And his seat isn't reclined front.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm wondering something here. Either our driver doesn't like cruise control or its broke. He's still got his foot on the petal.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If he doesn't like any computers, none of the modern motorcoaches would suit him. Newest MCI without a drive-by-wire engine would be a 1996 MCI MC-12 that had the 6V92TA. 1993 MCI 102C3 is another one. That's about it.

I hope your ride goes OK. If you had ridden any of the new buses, their Premiers would have been even worse than those FAINSAs.


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## mightyjoe1201

Just saw blue G 7220 on side of pa turnpike being hooked to a wrecker. Not good.


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## mightyjoe1201

I will say this. The fainsa's are a bit hard. I'm afraid to find out just how bad the others are. Lol. Guess eventually I'll get a bus with them. Don't know when but am definitely gonna take another trip on the dog.


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## mightyjoe1201

I just got talking to our driver. Looks like greyhound is starting to skimp on maintenance again. He said most of the guys responsible for checking everything don't and a bus won't go in the shop unless something is hanging off. Especially in ny. He said it's worse there cause as soon as its fueled it's put back on the line. He even said most drivers don't even check anything before leaving ny. Hope its better else where in the country. He also said greyhound is trying to save money again buy going longer between services.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I guess that driver wasn't such a jerk after all. Yeah, see? He's talking about "turn and burn" as well. That's when you fuel up the bus and depart immediately. That's the problem with short-distance routes, especially frequent routes. I guess it was better when Greyhound had more White G's to spread out the miles, now that over 100 White G's have been retired or are in storage, it's really putting pressure on the short-distance coaches.

Now that you've sat in Fainsas, you know what to expect if you ever go to Europe. Lots of the trains and buses there have Fainsas or similar seats. They're based in Spain. Here's some FAINSAs on an European train: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/IMG_0332.JPG.

I think the guys responsible for checking everything would check them if they had the time to. It's just all those turn-and-burns meaning they don't even have 1 hour to check before the motorcoach has to go.

Things seems better in the West where routes are more spread out, longer, and less frequent. In Denver I saw a DL3 going into the shop without major damage. Then again, in Denver the turnarounds are usually 12 hours long, so there's time for anything.

Well, I guess anything can break down, though, so #7220 can't exactly be blamed for being a Blue G. I'm sure Greyhound is indeed going longer between services due to the fleet shortage. Things were best 2009-2012 before the MC-12s were retired and the ADA-incompliant DL3s were sent to Canada or relegated to charters. That's why I'm saying Greyhound needs to order more units NOW if they want to meet David Leach's vision of an "elite blue fleet" by 2016.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's not good. The driver I had said he actually checks everything including fluids before he leaves ny. He said fluids don't even get checked there.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're right, it's not good. Even worse in New York City. That place has no Greyhound garage. And it has a lot of routes. Even worse, it has a lot of frequent short-distance routes. New York City probably gets more turn-and-burns than any other Greyhound origin. Likewise, it probably has the most breakdowns. Things were probably better when MC-12s dominated in that region. Now that the MC-12s have been replaced with the X3-45, things must have gotten worse. The X3-45 is a good machine but not so much in terms of durability. And your boss said computers were annoying? Well, the X3-45 has tons of computers, it even has radar and adaptive cruise braking, things the D4505 don't have, let along the old 102DL3. The 102DL3 does has drive-by-wire, and it's probably not good for turn-and-burn, being designed for long-haul grinding where ability to take damage and rack up miles would be more important that getting there and back and there and back again in the shortest period of time.

Then you have new reports of X3-45s with Volvo engine oil leaks.

I don't even know if the G4500 has cruise control, LOL. Cruise control failure was a problem on the X3-45 that Dale told me about. He was driving the brand-new X3-45 that already had broken radar, broken HVAC control, and a strap hanging off the undercarriage, but the cruise control was working. Another problem, he said, was that the driver's seat was too low. He looked like he had to lean around all the time. But many drivers love the X3-45 even though mechanics don't like it so much.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Look at this: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4286339,-98.490884,3a,18.9y,327.08h,85.01t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sqWeDbrHs9cFXBNT-styzIQ!2e0.

A Valley Transit blue Van Hool C2045 at Greyhound San Antonio; they are a Greyhound subsidiary.

Also, two White G's in very poor condition, including an ex-Americanos White G, wait besides the terminal: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4292643,-98.4908945,3a,15y,178.46h,86.73t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHc00xe6HwDeUsEoRwe5HbA!2e0.

Lastly, we have two DL3's, another Van Hool, and another White G, all in the boarding lanes at San Antonio: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4292653,-98.4910029,3a,15y,181.89h,86.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNPDwe__uYWOhl7N8_1qE2A!2e0.

At Oklahoma City's new small Greyhound station, we see a single 102DL3: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Greyhound+Lines/@35.4640383,-97.4773398,3a,15y,158.95h,87.23t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWtMt9MV7XkvtLNWyfh6Uig!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x87b21654ecf0ace5:0x5884313c44fa955a.

At another time, there's a Jefferson D4505, a Greyhound X3-45, and a Greyhound 102DL3: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4634637,-97.4770882,3a,40.9y,348.27h,83.59t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDmZrsG68p9odV_hw6RrXkQ!2e0.

At Greyhound Tulsa, we find 102DL3 #6505 driving around: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1540347,-95.9860151,3a,15y,35.79h,84.59t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s6em7QA0hejgnRlnkhbyQrw!2e0.


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## mightyjoe1201

To me that's bad business not having the buses checked. If they are fueling it doesn't take much to do a walk around and fluid check. When I drove truck I checked my fluids every fuel up.

Bus 7220 I saw getting put on a hook, that's not good no matter what make and model. Its expensive. Hope it's not fatal.

I don't think the driver going out to Pittsburgh used cruise either cause the retarder kept coming on. That's not always fun going ling distances with out cruise.

Its probably the make of seat that they have for the driver. For some reason some seat makers make their seats too low or where you can't move it fwd or back enough. I couldn't get a good enough look at driver seats to say who's they are. Recarro has a tendency to make seats that are either too high or too low. My bus is like that.

People start seeing and hearing about issues like you described about the X3-45's greyhound will lose riders again.

I've seen some vanhools and think they are ugly. Good thing GLI didn't go with them long term. I actually thought the white G I saw last nite was a vanhool at first cause I saw it from the back as I looked down the line of buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The White G4500 was supposed to directly combat the Van Hool C2045. It didn't work out because Greyhound condemned the G4500. If Greyhound had ordered the C2045 in large numbers, it's likely they would have condemned the C2045 as well, and that model would have died. The Van Hool kind of got away with it because its only major operator is Megabus, and Megabus cares more about dirt cheap than quality. They also got Cummins/ZF powertrains, one of the worst combos available.

The guy that's doing the fueling is often either a janitor, baggage handler, or the driver. If he's the driver, he should do a fluid check. If he doesn't, then shame on him. If it's the janitor or baggage handler, I doubt those guys know how to do any check. Last time in Reno, I saw Blue G #7151 getting refueled. The janitor was doing the refueling while the driver was walking around checking stuff. Thankfully, that Blue G was a Denver-based unit, and had the entire day to wait in Reno.

Some of the short-haul buses don't even get refueled until the end of the day. Like the notorious New York City-Philadelphia-Atlantic City-New York City rotation. That rotation is 283 miles. The Volvo D13-powered X3-45 has a range of 1,425 miles. On paper, it could do 4 of those rotations and still have 20% fuel left. That would be up to 600 passengers passing through transit-style. No refueling. No cleaning. No nothing. And 30-minute turnarounds. Solution? Either use the stored White G's awaiting scrapping, or buy more units. Neither of which Greyhound is doing right now.

On #52672, are you sure it was the retarder that kept coming or the engine brake? Greyhound driver in Colorado that dealt with the unruly old hippie told me they use Jacobs Engine Brakes.

What's your favorite driver's seat? National? ISRI?


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## rickycourtney

I can't fathom why a driver wouldn't check fluid levels as a part of their pre-check walkaround inspection. Sounds like drivers probably aren't even doing those inspections. Low fluid levels could lead to an engine fire.

Drivers need to feel empowered. If the spot something majorly wrong they should be able to get it be fixed before starting their trip. If they spot a minor problem they should feel like if it's reported... it will be fixed in an appropriate amount of time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, I know, I don't know what's going on the New York City with their drivers though. The drivers here in Reno do pre-trip checks all the time. On NYC Transit Forums, I heard of a driver grab between NYC Transit and Greyhound. The following information has no citation and cannot be confirmed. On that forum, it was said Greyhound driver recruits were not joining Greyhound after hearing of better starting pay and benefits from NYC Transit. Greyhound is thus forced to recruit worse drivers than NYC Transit, while their existing drivers defect to NYC Transit as well. It appears this is a major problem because the worse drivers might skip pre-trip checks.

To make matter worse, some rotations out of New York City and surrounding cities have only 30 minutes to turn around, which is often no enough to do anything. It's only enough unload, load, and drive away.

As for Joe's driver, he said he checks everything, right? But he's driving a long-distance bus. Not a short-distance bus, which is the majority out of New York City, and which seems to be the main troublemakers in Greyhound's fleet. Now, he said "fluids don't even get checked there". So does that mean the drivers out of New York City don't check fluids, or is it the ground people that's not checking fluids?


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## mightyjoe1201

On 52672, I didn't realize they had actual Jake's. It sounded more like a retarded but I'm not used to hearing Jake's on a bus. Lol. So yeah, it was the Jake's coming on.

As for driver seats I'd have to say bostrom is about the best. At least for trucks. They are comfortable and have a wide range in each direction. I know them and a few others do offer low profile seats. Its usually drivers take all the air out of the seat suspension anyway that get them.

The driver did make a comment that the "kids" probably don't even know what the inside of the engine compartment looks like.

On paper is one thing. Real work is different. On paper that range is 1400 miles but that don't include idle time or any other factors. And shorter distances and stop and go use more fuel anyway.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok. Quick question. Is the G4500 a regular production bus or was it made specifically for greyhound like the MC-12 mainly were? I've yet to see any running with anyone else's colors. Including charters.


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## mightyjoe1201

I think my driver meant grounds crew and most ny based drivers not doing fluid checks.


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## rickycourtney

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Ok. Quick question. Is the G4500 a regular production bus or was it made specifically for greyhound like the MC-12 mainly were? I've yet to see any running with anyone else's colors. Including charters.


The G4500 was made to Greyhound's specifications, but it was a regular production bus that anyone could buy. That being said... few companies other than Greyhound and its affiliates bought the G4500. Even Greyhound bought fewer G4500 buses than MCI expected and they spent a long time trying to sell the rest of them off.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They were still trying to sell them off but no one was buying so they decided to scrap them instead.

Greyhound source says 446 were built for Greyhound, some more for other companies. One of those built for other companies is currently for sale, $70,000 and 740,000 miles IIRC, 55 Amaya Brasil seating, has enclosed parcel racks and video system. No wheelchair lift. Old MCI specs for the G4500 tout:


Back-to basics technology with outstanding styling
Outstanding fuel economy
Low maintenance costs
More passenger hip-to-knee room
Exterior scheme designed to order
Seems like Greyhound needs to raise pay in New York City because of the higher cost of living. But if they do that too much, the other drivers will get mad. And then they would have to raise fares while under pressure from Megabus price wars. Megabus does have very low average wages and crappy Van Hool equipment.

Don't know much about Bostroms but they are currently owned by Commercial Vehicle Group, the same company that owns National. A driver told me he really likes National. Don't know what Greyhound uses.

Those kids working as shouldn't be expected to do any checks on the vehicles. Even I have seen the engine compartment in person. The drivers need to do it. The turn-and-burns are the problem. The driver grabs against NYC Transit, if true, are another problem. Yes, the 1400-mile range is on paper. But like I said, on paper, do that rotation 4 times and you still have 20% fuel left. Use that 20% for idling, and it would still make it. Even if a X3-45 only does 3 283-mile rotations, that's still 450 passengers passing through in quick succession. As opposed to no more than 50 on the Reno-Salt Lake City.


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## mightyjoe1201

I always thought Bostrom was its own co.

I guess every manufacturer has at least one product that bombs. Lol. At least greyhound tried to fix the problems with the G's. I thought it was only for GLI seeing as it had a G in its model. MCI obviously was wrong about low maintenance costs.

Kids was the driver's word not mine. No matter who's responsible for checking the bus it should b done every trip. Legally it's the drivers responsibility during pre and post trip inspections. That's a good way to destroy a vehicle. It also drives costs up.

I'd b afraid to ride megabus. I don't trust their buses cause I know a bunch if the double deckers have been topped.

It would depend on what the union if any that represents greyhound drivers when I comes yo pay raise to attract ny drivers. They would probably demand it a cross the board.


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## railiner

Re: GLI and other private carrier driver's jumping over to MTA.....

It's pretty tough to offer competitive wage and benefit packages, when you have to depend on your "farebox" to pay for it....as opposed to having the tax-collector as your "salesman".......

edit: of course, back in the regulation days, GL was very competitive....being a Greyhound driver, was one of the most prestigious professional driving occupation's of all. They demanded and attracted the "cream-of-the-crop" in those good old days......


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound drivers are part of the Amalgamated Transit Union, ATU. They would likely demand a raise across the board if Greyhound were to raise wages. Greyhound can't do that and doesn't need to do that because Greyhound sure isn't losing many drivers to transit agencies in most parts of the nation. Like RTC-Reno. The transit drivers in Reno are paid low and can't find jobs easily. Reno is poor, poor, poor. They would love to drive for Greyhound.

It's just that New York City has such a high cost of living and the wages are so high that Greyhound can't really improve its driver stock. Further problems facing Greyhound's New York City Division (NYD) include the massive amounts of short-distance frequent routes that run on turn-and-burn. Complicating things further, there's no Greyhound garage in NYD.

Without a garage, most of the ground crews are incapable of checking anything, let alone fixing anything. The drivers are supposed to do it, but Greyhound drivers there are probably some of the worst in the nation due to defections to NYC Transit. Mix in the turn-and-burns, then you have a huge problem. Short-distance buses elsewhere might be dirty, but it's got to be worse for NYD.

Greyhound might have had better maintenance in the 2009-2013 period due to having more units, but their equipment was far worse back then. They had lots of White G's, no Blue G's. They had MC-12s in very bad condition. They had 102DL3s in fair to poor condition pre-rebuild. They had a few new X3-45s, and a few 102D3s. And the few new D4505s of course, first delivered in 2010 to Chicago and Denver garages.

Megabus? Their wages are worse than Greyhound. And their equipment is worse than Greyhound. And anybody in the bus industry knows not to buy an ex-Coach USA bus.

Edit: $hit just hit the fan on Greyhound X3-45 #86073, the door wouldn't open: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=708614829222974&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&theater.


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## railiner

Those X-3 entrance doors can be temperamental at times....Most of the time, the issue is with the electro-pneumatic operated deadbolts that won't retract enough. If you are big enough to hold the open position on the switch with your left hand, while you give the door a firm kick with your right foot, it will yield. Other times, it can be the mechanical deadbolt is hanging up a bit. The mechanical deadbolt is operated outside by a key, and on the inside, by a slide lever. The air operated deadbolt can be released by turning a release lever on the dash panel, next to the door. These have been known to fail as well at times, not releasing the air. In addition, there is another air release located in the outside compartment where the washer fluid is kept. Access to it is by opening the door, either by lifting a knob inside,near the driver's window, or outside with a key. Sometimes, the electric switches can fail, either the inside, dash control, or the outside switch.

Give me an old-fashioned non-powered door like GM Coaches used to use, thankyou....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Found out some possibilities what that White G out of Pittsburgh could have been running.

4407 Richmond-Cleveland
1675 New York City-Denver

Or it could have been deadheading.

Another previous video on the X3-45 #86073 showed the driver managed to kick the door open. But the next time she tried, it wouldn't budge. Eventually, the driver was forced to call for help. Nobody could really do anything from the outside because the driver was stuck inside and ended up popping the window to try and tell stranded passengers what to do, to no avail. It appears many levers, deadbolts, or switches failed. The driver was forced to call for help.

I know the MC-12 had the manual door handle. Did the 102A3 or 102C3 have it?


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## railiner

I don't think she tried popping open the washer door, and having someone turn that air release, or at least I didn't see it in the video....there is even enough space for a slender driver to slip out of that door when opened....another possibility is having someone on the outside open the wheechair lift door. I've used that to enter a coach, when the outside door could not be opened, due to the coach losing air overnight, and the door dropped down to where the curb blocked it .....in fact, I have even entered a coach that had no lift, by going thru the roof hatch.....parked another coach alongside, and went up thru its hatch, and jumped over to the other....sometimes you have to be resourceful.... 

As for the 102A3....the manual door handle was an option....it worked by moving it up and down, as opposed to side to side like the MC-12, and older model's....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Went in through the roof hatch! Was that a MCI, GMC, Eagle, or Prevost? I know some of them have curved roofs. Got to be dangerous doing it on something with a curved roof like the D4505.

I doubt that X3-45 has lost air overnight. It was actually a long-distance coach as far as I know. He said he was going to Seattle. I guess this isn't so much a maintenance issue but just an issue in general with air-operated doors. Do the D4505s have this problem as well?

I guess at this point, if the D4505 wasn't such a fuel guzzler, it would be better than the X3-45. Already got a new dashboard and steering wheel. Already has all-disc brakes. About to get LED headlights if the D4500CT already has it. I'm sure the classic interior will continue to offered and, for line-haul, is probably better than the new interior with the bright high light strip. The recessed classic central lights give it a warmer feel.

Edit: Woah, I just uploaded 3 shots to Flickr. One suddenly got 190 views. The others got only 8 views each. What the heck?


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## rickycourtney

Sounds like yet another reason to have a emergency release so the wheelchair lift door can be used as an exit.

Of course they'd need to find a step ladder so passengers can climb down.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Went in through the roof hatch! Was that a MCI, GMC, Eagle, or Prevost? I know some of them have curved roofs. Got to be dangerous doing it on something with a curved roof like the D4505.
> 
> I doubt that X3-45 has lost air overnight. It was actually a long-distance coach as far as I know. He said he was going to Seattle. I guess this isn't so much a maintenance issue but just an issue in general with air-operated doors. Do the D4505s have this problem as well?
> 
> I guess at this point, if the D4505 wasn't such a fuel guzzler, it would be better than the X3-45. Already got a new dashboard and steering wheel. Already has all-disc brakes. About to get LED headlights if the D4500CT already has it. I'm sure the classic interior will continue to offered and, for line-haul, is probably better than the new interior with the bright high light strip. The recessed classic central lights give it a warmer feel.
> 
> Edit: Woah, I just uploaded 3 shots to Flickr. One suddenly got 190 views. The others got only 8 views each. What the heck?


That was on an old H3-41. The MCI roof hatches cannot be opened from the outside, although, I believe the newest model's may, if they have gone to the same type that the Prevost's have....a combination ventilation and emergency exit that protrude above the roof. The older MCI's have a flush mounted hatch that is impossible to open from the outside.

The J4500's have an issue with their outside door switches either not working, or getting stuck in the open or close position....seems that the rubber weather seal sometimes get breached and the switches short out or corrode.....

The air dump lever under the dash seems more reliable than the rotary type used on the Prevost's.....


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Sounds like yet another reason to have a emergency release so the wheelchair lift door can be used as an exit.
> 
> Of course they'd need to find a step ladder so passengers can climb down.


Good point.....

If you open the lower wheelchair door, as well, you can use the parked lift, and the bottom of the hatch as a kind of ladder, as long as you are relatively agile....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I believe the passengers can jump out the wheelchair lift door in the event on an emergency. They can already jump out of the windows. The decks of most motorcoach are 4-6 feet high. Jumping out straight would be enough to avoid spraining an ankle. Better than getting burned to death.

Note that they are two types of lift doors in use, swinging and sliding. The 102DL3, 102EL3, E4500, G4500, and J4500 have swinging. The D4505 and H3-45 have sliding. Some of the X3-45s have sliding but I'm not sure if all have sliding.

There's also the issue of the one-sided red handles, which I still believe is deficient.

What would you guys like to see Greyhound order next?

Edit: H3-45 actually has swinging.


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## rickycourtney

John, my point is that the wheelchair door can not be opened from the inside on any motorcoach. I think that's a bad design. There should be some sort of emergency door release on the inside of the bus. That would give a big, easy escape route for passengers in the event of an emergency.


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## mightyjoe1201

Most drivers don't seem to like driving transit. At least else where in the country. Thru usually prefer to drive a coach. What does greyhound pay? I looked into them several years ago but their avg pay was only 25,000 or 30,000 per year at the time. For someone in NYC that's pretty much minimum wage.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they should make that possible from the inside. It would probably be easier for the swinging doors than the sliding doors, because sliding doors move completely out of the entryway so that someone from the inside could not get leverage all the way.

Greyhound driver wages start at $17/hour and $37,000/year. Quite low for starting. But drivers that know how to "play" the extra board can earn $55,000 their first year. Wages go up to $88,000/year for the best senior drivers that drive fixed daily routings instead of waiting on call/bidding. The first year is said to be really tough for recruits. All extra board and around-the-clock on call driving. Including holidays and weekends. This shows Greyhound's driver hierarchy that is immediately unfavorable to NYD drivers and less favorable to short-distance drivers.

Transit drivers in Nevada have very low wages. I think the best commercial drivers in Reno drive for Greyhound. Exactly the opposite in New York City.


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## rickycourtney

The problem with swinging doors is that you need clearance to get them open. Also how much leverage could you really need to open a sliding door?


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, not good for NYC drivers. Especially if they live in the city. Why go yo greyhound and put up with all that when you cam make more money and have less to worry about. Reno makes more then we do. One of my co workers lived out there and tried to get hired. They were paying almost $10 an hour more then us. We are only getting $12.30 per hour. The other contractor here only pays $10.50 per hour.

Ad for sliding doors, it can take about as much leverage to open as a swinging door.all depends on how stiff the hinges on a swinging door and rollers on a sliding door are. It also depends on what kind of grip if any you can get on a sliding door without a handle.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The problem with clearance is that if your don't have much clearance anyway, you probably shouldn't escape out that door. And if you don't have clearance, you can't use the wheelchair lift anyway.

A problem with the sliding door is that if you have part of the rail bent in an accident, then the door wouldn't open, it would get stuck. In an accident, it would be easier to simply open the swinging door in one brisk motion than to pull it, though all that depends on the exact door.

As I take, if they worry that much about safety, then they ought to get window escape bars mandatory first and get rid of the little red handles which are no OK in motorcoaches because of the parcel racks and high-back seats, which prevent the passenger from reaching over a seat back to grab the red handle. It's OK for transit but they shouldn't have plopped a transit escape into a motorcoach without thinking.

Of course the sages aren't good for NYD drivers but what is Greyhound going to do? They raise wages, great, union gets mad and asks everywhere to be raised.

Anyways, here's an old timetable for those that are interested: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15507739706/sizes/l. 

Very interesting local timetable from Pennsylvania.

The D4505 vs X3-45 debate that is raging within Greyhound seems to be going nowhere. Neither seem to have an advantage over the other, while Greyhound stalls and resorts to running the hell out of their existing X3-45s and White G4500s. Not so much the 102DL3 or D4505 because those don't do much turn-and-burns.


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## mightyjoe1201

I really have to agree with Swadian. This red handles have to go. Not everyone can reach them and they don't hold the Windows closed right either. At least from a transit bus driver point of view. There has been many times I had to stop and foreclose a window that popped open cause the handles don't stay latched. On my bus ride home from Pittsburgh on Sunday the G4500 I was on had the red handles. I purposely sat in the aisle seat because I don't trust them. Also. Those handles ate harder to pull down then the bars are.

Greyhound doesn't need wage wars rite now. At some point things will work out and they will b able to get the better drivers around NYC again.


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## railiner

One way carrier's that can, get around the living expense problem at NYC, is to have none, or few driver's home-based there...

They work out of the "away" base, and depending on the distance, either turnaround the same day, or after a rest at a hotel or the dorm. Now as has been discussed here, that has been expanded to the buses....the buses too, are based "away", and turnaround at NYC. The price of real estate has always been bad in The City, but lately it has been astronomical....too expensive to operate a parking or servicing garage for buses.

My company's driver's that come to NYC, are based mainly in Kingston or Albany, and some in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Montreal, Gloversville, and Oneonta.

The Buffalo, Rochester, and Montreal driver's stayover at a hotel, the rest turnaround. There are only a few based in NYC.....

Our garages are in Kingston and Albany. We clean them out at the terminal in NYC, and send them back. The ones coming in on the longer trips like Toronto and Montreal, will sometimes go over to the Academy garage in Hoboken for full servicing.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I see Greyhound's doing the same thing or at least trying to, except having more trouble due to their large scale of operations. They are also turning-and-burning out of NYD. Problem is, Greyhound's garage at Atlantic City is poorly placed now that some of the casinos are closing down. The garage at Philadelphia has much better prospects. I'm not sure if they still have the garage in Boston.

Greyhound definitely shouldn't risk another battle with the ATU and a major driver strike at this point. Back in 1983, that's what sent Greyhound into a downward spiral that ended in the 1990 bankruptcy (following debt and a second major strike).

If the prices of real estate are astronomical in NYC, Greyhound should really consider hiring more drivers from Philadelphia, which also has a garage. If you look through recent Greyhound complaints, you'll see that very few involve Reno. Reno has generally laid-back operations, no tight turnarounds, no mass driver defections. I guess that's one reason why I'm having lots of good Greyhound experiences here. Sure, the White G's were horrible when they dominated Reno-San Francisco before October 2013, but now the D4505s are doing a good job of attracting and keeping customers.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to see what Greyhound orders next to wipe out those White G's and increase capacity to combat turn-and-burns. Even if drivers are based from Philly, things will still go bad if Greyhound doesn't have enough equipment to operate properly without committing White G's.

Greyhound has been forced to sell its Shorty 102D3s to combat overbooking. #3402, an ex-US unit that went to Greyhound Canada Vancouver Island ops, was just sold for an unknown price to an unknown customer, with over 1,800,000 miles on it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's an idea for Greyhound and the D4505: order them with Cummins ISL9 engines. They offer only 330hp but might counter the problem of high fuel consumption that has become one of the biggest problems for the D4505.

The D4500CT with CAT C13 ACERT actually did well, getting 6.67 mph average on-highway during testing.


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## tp49

railiner said:


> One way carrier's that can, get around the living expense problem at NYC, is to have none, or few driver's home-based there...
> 
> They work out of the "away" base, and depending on the distance, either turnaround the same day, or after a rest at a hotel or the dorm. Now as has been discussed here, that has been expanded to the buses....the buses too, are based "away", and turnaround at NYC. The price of real estate has always been bad in The City, but lately it has been astronomical....too expensive to operate a parking or servicing garage for buses.
> 
> My company's driver's that come to NYC, are based mainly in Kingston or Albany, and some in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Montreal, Gloversville, and Oneonta.
> 
> The Buffalo, Rochester, and Montreal driver's stayover at a hotel, the rest turnaround. There are only a few based in NYC.....
> 
> Our garages are in Kingston and Albany. We clean them out at the terminal in NYC, and send them back. The ones coming in on the longer trips like Toronto and Montreal, will sometimes go over to the Academy garage in Hoboken for full servicing.


Didn't Greyhound used to have some kind of garage or facility on the west side near the Hudson? I seem to remember it when I would go to the Intrepid or Javits Center as a kid.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they did. It was the site of a famous G4500 explosion. Vermont Transit Lines #40204 was pulling into the garage with only the driver, when it started smoking. The driver parked by the curb and jumped out. The motorcoach proceeded to explode, sending smoke everywhere. The incident happened in 2008, before Vermont merged with Greyhound.

#40204 was a 2003 MCI(-Dina) G4500 3BMXSMRA63S080458 powered by a 370hp Detroit Diesel 60-R 12.7L.

The lot was leased and Greyhound decided they couldn't pay the higher lease rates anymore, so they pulled out. I don't know if it was a Maintenance Center or just a lot.

More info on the D4505. It was introduced in 2005. It had a curb weight of 35,100 lbs and gross weight of 48,000 lbs, same as the 102DL3 and original D4505. 2007, it got the new rear end. 2008, it got the raised deck that reduced headroom. Same year, gross weight raised to 50,000 lbs, curb weight omitted from spec sheet. Had Detroit 60 EGR 14L offered until as late as Greyhound's 2011 model year (2010 build year) special order. Had CAT C13 ACERT up to 2009 model year. Offers Cummins ISL8.9 380hp, not the 330hp I had said.


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## mightyjoe1201

Did they ever figure out what caused the bus to explode? Catching fire is one thing but explosions don't usually happen to buses.


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## railiner

Greyhound built in 1968, what is now the MTA Michael Quill Depot. It was a major garage that could do any repair. It could probably have built a bus, had they been given the materials.... It occupies the entire city block between 11th and 12th Avenues, 40th and 41st Streets. It has four bus levels, counting the rooftop parking lot. It has space for regional offices, a dispatch center, and a two level driver's dormitory.

When Greyhound Lines was divested in the late 80's from the Greyhound Corporation, the valuable property was not included, and was sold to the MTA. Since the MTA has no use for the dorm, Greyhound has leased it from them, and continues to operate it.

Greyhound then leased two lots on the west end of the blocks on 12th avenue, between 29th, and 31st street, adjacent to the LIRR West Side Yard.. They could fully service and fuel buses there, and had a small mechanical force to do minor repairs. They also had room to park about 100 or so buses, between the two lots. They lost their lease their a few years ago, and started turning everything at The Port. They also park between 20 and 35 or so buses over at the Academy lot in Hoboken, NJ. Occasionally, they dump lavs there and get fuel, but usually, they just turn buses if possible. They employ a handful of mechanics, at the Port to do very minor repairs.....things like lights, wiper's, etc....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, #40204 caught on fire, and the fire went down the fuel line, reached the fuel tank, and it exploded. There you go.

Sad situation in NYD but can be fixed by moving units and drivers out, though that would possibly require more units, which Greyhound currently doesn't have.

Now I've heard Cummins isn't that bad and might not be much worse than the Volvo now. Because the J4500 with the Cummins ISX12 was tested to get 8.8 mpg average, in MCI propaganda. Not sure what Greyhound will order next. If the D4505 can get rid of its fuel consumption issues, I would root for it over the X3-45, which has run into problem after problem recently. The extra 5" length of the D4505 means a tiny bit more legroom, and the windows are bigger, which I like.


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## rickycourtney

To answer your earlier question... if I was buying buses for Greyhound... I wouldn't buy anything at this point. Nothing on the market seems right for the job. As a matter of fact I would be working with MCI and Prevost to develop a updated line haul coach.

That being said... if they got desperate and just needed to add some more buses as a stop gap... I would buy more X3-45's.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's exactly what Greyhound is doing right now. Buying nothing. And forcing White G's into service. And also running the $hit out of the X3-45s. Good idea? I don't know. Doesn't seem to be working particularly well.

Greyhound stated they would have an elite blue fleet by 2016. That's not that far away. There's still too many White G's hanging around. And they are in horrible condition. They can't be rebuilt. What is Greyhound going to do?

Then there's those rumors of Greyhound leasing Van Hools. You know, if I needed temporary equipment fast, I would lease cheap Van Hools as well, not buy X3-45s. Why would I buy X3-45s for my permanent fleet when they're having trouble right now? I would wait for things to get better.

See any Greyhound Van Hools in Seattle? I heard they were being sent over there for BoltBus service. BoltBus is Greyhound's testbed. If the Van Hools do well with Bolt, Greyhound might lease more for their regular fleet. I doubt they will order them outright, but anything is possible right now.

Also, if I were Greyhound right now, I would rather work with my old friends at MCI to get the D4505 more efficient, than to work with Prevost in an attempt to make them more durable, something that likely won't happen because the X3-45 is already overweight.


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## rickycourtney

I've only heard of some very minor problems with the X3-45's... am I missing something?

Honestly if the rumors are true and Greyhound cancelled an order with MCI due to quality control issues... why would they want to work with them any more than Prevost?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm going out on a hunch, but it appears the fuel efficiency was a big reason why Greyhound suspended (not cancelled) the order with MCI. As for quality control, again, it appears the problem is more with Cummins than with MCI. The only D4505 I've ridden that actually rode very rough was #86544, driven by a trainee named Loewy, which was also a very loud coach. The other ones were not too bad and every 86300-series I've ridden was extraordinarily smooth, even beat-up #86307. Those have the Detroit 60 EGR 14L, so perhaps the Crappy Cummins has to do with ruining the D4505 more than raising the deck.

I don't believe a hole in the roof, doors getting jammed, Volvo engine sucking up oil, and fender flares falling off can be considered "minor" problems for the X3-45. The D4505 has caught on fire a few times, but the X3-45 has had at least 1 fire as well, and 2 of the D4505 fires were caused by blown tires that would have also burned up the X3-45. The other D4505 fire was an engine fire that could have been caused by either EGR malfunction or not checking fluids. A certified mechanic told me the EGR and SCR creates gases up to 1500 degrees, and cannot be controlled by the driver. Even with fluids topped off, the EGR could have burned the coach.

Now the D4505 comes standard with Amerax fire suppression. So no 86500s have burned. It's likely they do still guzzle fuel. I don't see other major problems with the D4505.

There's currently a divide in Greyhound between pro-Prevost and anti-Prevost. I hope you can understand not everybody likes the X3-45 as much as you do. Kit didn't like it. I think it's OK, but not great. Not saying that I like the D4505 either, considering their recent troubles. Just saying they're more of less the same now. I think MCI is currently begging Greyhound not to go to Prevost, and with old "connections", they're stalling and hoping to get the D4505 (or D4500CT) to burn less fuel before Greyhound loses patience. This stalling does mean they'll have to order a ton of buses at once again if they want to make 2016 all-blue without shortages.


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## rickycourtney

Swad- I don't doubt that there are X3-45 units out there that have had problems. But you're citing circumstantial evidence as proof that all of the units have problems. Remember that at this point there are nearly 400 X3-45 buses in the fleet (almost double the amount of D4505 buses) with 190 of them being over 5 years old (only 43 D4505s are older than that.)

Here's the thing... I don't have a horse in this race. I happen to think that the X3-45 and the D4505 are fine buses with their own benefits and drawbacks.

Greyhound is a weird topic to discuss in the transportation world... unlike public agencies they aren't subject to public disclosure laws. That means everything is just a guess. Your guess is as good as any.

But clearly the company doesn't think they desperately need buses at this point... or they would be buying them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Regarding D4505s, Greyhound US (GLI) never ordered D4505s before 2010. I highly doubt GLI has 43 D4505s older than that. Greyhound's fleet list on Texas DMV lists their oldest D4505 as 1M86DMHAXAP059487, a 2010 unit with a Detroit 60 14L EGR engine, Greyhound #86300. I don't see evidence of any GLI D4505 older than that, excluding White D4505 #30600 which was merged from TNM&O and some Americanos that are still registered separately.

But at this point, it's kind of unfair to use 5 years as a marker, because Greyhound has bunch of 4-year-old D4505s (2010) and a few 6-year-old X3-45s (2008). What I can say is that most of the X3-45 issues have been reported with 2008 and 2009 X3-45s. I don't know of many X3-45s other than Greyhound X3-45s, whereas there's many D4505s operated by other companies.

I recently found out, to my surprise, that the first batch of US-spec D4505s are powered with Detroit 60 14L engines rated at 425hp. Very low for such a large engine, though they must have plenty of reserve torque. It seems Greyhound liked the performance of the 86300s, but was not happy the Detroit 60 died and got replaced with the ISX12 only. By 2013, it appears MCI had convinced Greyhound to try the ISX12, except it seems to have been a big failure and a downgrade from the Detroit 60 14L.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, look what I found: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14933142083/sizes/h/.

That's a nice card timetable with #1130, one of the extra fancy DL3s. It has the enclosed parcel racks and a higher power rating, 425hp, among other perks.

And hey, check out my home route's timetable from 1990: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15366429249/sizes/l.

Oh man, what is this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15367439450/sizes/l.

They're all in this big pile of old timetables: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157647622207805.


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## rickycourtney

Up until the site was updated earlier this year Greyhound said it had 43 D4505s in the fleet purchased in 2006.

Here's proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20140209100607/http://www.greyhound.com/en/about/factsandfigures.aspx


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, their website said that. But they don't have 43 2006 D4505s. No evidence of them other than the old fleet page. Not on the roster. Not registered. Never seen anywhere. Nobody's heard about them from anyone. They must have been joking. They keep messing up with the fleet page anyway, it should be regarded as a completely bogus source of info until they start putting real fleet figures on there.

Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us. They say they have 280. They actually have 340 in the US fleet minus the wrecked unit(s). Surely they didn't wreck 60 X3-45s already. BoltBus units aren't included, either.

Yeah, Greyhound Canada had some, and they sometimes ran into the US, but GLC has their own fleet page, and GLC isn't running them into the US anymore. For that matter, Greyhound Canada just got the oldest Greyhound US X3-45s built in 2008. Those were the pilot batch with Detroit 60 14L EGR and Amaya Patriot PT seating. Not refurbished, only repainted. Those are very small in number and are being used to replace the 102D3s which are only 40' long and are causing overbooking. These are not included in my above 340-unit figure.

188 D4505s is possibly the only correct figure on the current Greyhound fleet page. Roster shows #86300-86407, and #86500-86567. Spottings of state-owned units up to #86573, and a few D4500CTs further.

Anyone know Viad Corporation? That used to be Greyhound Corportation, according to Greyhound's website.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us.


I'm not what incentive they would have to "trick" us, but okay... sure... whatever you say.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look, Greyhound can try to trick us, but they can't trick us.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not what incentive they would have to "trick" us, but okay... sure... whatever you say.
Click to expand...

Perhaps they're not trying to trick us, but either way, their website is completely stupid and has a blatantly wrong route map, so there's no reason for us to trust their fleet page either.

Oh yeah, see this: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/61821-social-media-arrogance/.

That's another YouTube troll pretending to be a Greyhound driver and yet claiming that the G4500 has a ZF transmission, which is a poor transmission AFAIK, but the G4500 doesn't have a ZF transmission and that's definitely not the reason Greyhound is retiring that model. That guy "superdobette" is a classic example of someone that talks without backing it up.

Here's an interesting article on Greyhound: http://www.startribune.com/local/279675292.html.

Congrats, Martis Jerk! He wasn't originally named Carl Eric Wickman after all. Go Greyhound!


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow. Interesting article. I never knew they started in MN. Thankfully he changed his name and stunk as a car salesman or we wouldn't be discussing greyhound. Wonder what he would say about greyhound now if he were here.


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## rickycourtney

FYI... Greyhound Canada rosters 43 D4505 buses, all built in 2006, none with wheelchair lifts. That's according to the mostly accurate (but unfortunately poorly cited) CPTDB Wiki.

They may have been ordered by GLI and transfered to GLC ahead of the ADA deadline. Sadly for GLC, at 8 years old, these are the newest buses in their fleet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I typed up a post, and the window closed on me. Argh!

OK, so basically GLI's fleet page must have meant those GLC D4505s. But GLI's fleet page had no mention of them in 2007, 2008, or 2009. GLC's fleet page has never mentioned them at any time. Photos show some of the GLC D4505s have wheelchair lifts, while others don't. I also found multiple photos of them in 2006, in GLC service. Interior shots show Torino VIP seats, open parcel racks, no video system or monitors, and "dog pattern" cloth velour seats. Indications are that they were bought new by GLC and never ran for GLI, but doesn't explain why GLC's fleet page doesn't mention them. They did run in the US occasionally, on international service. I believe someone simply copied the "43" figure from GLI's old fleet page and posted them on GLC, since it is poorly cited. CPTDB rosters have slews of errors anyway.

In terms of durability, they seem to be quite durable except for the bumpers. Many have lost parts of paint or have partially faded decals, but no physical damage other than the bumpers and maybe the bottom. The roof looks to be durable.

Here are some more photos of them: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound-canada_d4505.html. 

Also, these are apparently no longer the newest GLC buses. Tony on Flickr said he saw three X3-45s with Canadian registration. They are the 2008 pilot units with the Patriot PT seats. That means the Greyhound cover photo on Wikipedia is also outdated because it shows #8879, which is one of the units _reportedly_ transferred to Canada. He sent me a photo of one with a trailer hitch, which I had posted earlier on tis thread, an indication of operating for GLC, not GLI.


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## rickycourtney

Canada: Where Greyhound's dinosaurs still roam the earth.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They're not that old though. The MC-9s are gone, the 96A3s, 102A3s, and 102C3s are gone. MC-12s transferred from GLI are gone. The 102D3s are getting sold right now with 1,200,000-1,800,000 miles on them. The oldest in GLC's fleet are probably 102DL3s, same model as the oldest in GLI's fleet.

AFAIK, they do still have this 1995 102DL3: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_984.jpg. 

Greyhound Canada's financial trouble has stubbed their chances of getting anything new anytime soon. They appear to have put too much resources into unprofitable Toronto-area commuter routes that have to compete with cheaper GO Transit, a public agency. Greyhound Canada should bug out of their QuickLink commuter routes and focus on Express and Limited service instead. For example, a Vancouver-Calgary Limited. Faster service all along the TCH would help a lot more than constantly fighting GO Transit.

I wonder where DL3 #6703 came from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15432008565/sizes/c/. Not ordered by GLI or GLC. Must be second-hand to GLI then transferred to GLC, so I guess third-hand? LOL. Very high driver's seat.


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## mightyjoe1201

Where do all of you get your info about gli and plc rostered fleet? Been doing searches but can't seem to find anything help full. Most is either outdated or sites I don't recognize.


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## Swadian Hardcore

GLI is very simple, always there: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/. 

You just got to put in USDOT #44110.

GLI is Greyhound Lines, Inc. aka Greyhound US. GLC is Greyhound Lines of Canada aka Greyhound Canada.

GLC is quite a bit tougher than GLI. You have to go by order batches and everything not in an order batch only becomes a guess. The GLC unit numbers are spread all over the place. What I can confirm is #978-990, #996-1009, #1013-1077, #1096-1100, and #1115-1182 which are DL3s (some are second-hand), #1183-1247 which are White G4500s, #1263-1292, #1296-1302 (second-hand), and #1327-1333 (second-hand) which are D4505s.

Some of the older retired DL3s have been sold to private operators. CAT-powered #999 was seen in Winnipeg in private use. It had operated the long-haul to Whitehorse and was equipped with a 7-speed manual. Here's Mighty 999 at Calgary in 2010: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound999.jpg. 

This was the best resource for GLC until they started getting transfers from the US: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/index.htm. 

On BusDrawings, every GLC original fleet number matches with the next, but then the transfers mess it up. It is very poorly cited but is backed up by spottings and was apparently copied from Greyhound Canada rosters.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thank you. Now I just have to figure out what model is which with the mci's since it only shows the vin. I thought greyhound didn't have any vanhools or are they from a separate division?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Some MCI VIN Prefixes:

1M8P=102DL3

1M86=D4505

3BMX=G4500

1M8R=MC-12

1M8F=102A3

1M8G=102C3

1M8S=102D3

1M85=D4005

You can see the G4500 prefix sticks out like a sore thumb. That's because they're made in Mexico.

Greyhound didn't order any Van Hools, but they have Van Hools for all kinds of reasons, which can include: state-owned, leased, merged, demo, and second-hand Van Hools.

Here's a Greyhound plain-white Van Hool in poor condition: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/14463900361. The hatches don't even close tight anymore!

Here's some more Van Hools running for Greyhound Charter Services (ADA-incompliant):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12555748155/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13205438383/sizes/l.

As you can see, they only have the "legroom" icon, no Wi-Fi or outlets.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. I'm glad gli doesn't buy vanhools. I've yet to hear drivers say anything nice about them. Including a coworker. He said his dad had one just before he lost his bus co.

I still find it hard to believe greyhound bought prevost. I've never liked those things.

You know how long ago Volvo took over prevost? It surprised me last time I was on one and saw the Volvo name on everything but the outside.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I like Prevost to a certain degree, though MCI should never have let Prevost catch up to them so easily. Prevost was bought by Volvo in 1995, according to Wikipedia. You're right, the Van Hools suck. I've yet to have a good ride in a Van Hool. Drivers loathe them.

GLC doesn't have a single Van Hool so as I know. GLI has a few here and there, mostly near Chicago, Phoenix, San Antonio.

If MCI hadn't f--ked up with the G4500, then wouldn't have gone bankrupt, and they wouldn't have messed up with the D4505 either, because the D4505 was designed while MCI was bankrupt. MCI apparently reduced the rivets and possibly other parts in an attempt to get themselves out of bankruptcy, so the D4505 ended up being worse than the 102DL3 though still much better than the G4500. By then Prevost was already moving ahead with the X3-45.

OTOH, Prevost products don't seem that great either. I just stumbled upon this photo: http://images.travelerstoday.com/data/images/full/2595/greyhound-bus.jpg?w=600, which shows a GLC XL-II that hit a high curb, lost paint, and then started rusting.

Hitting a high curb is understandable. Losing paint is understandable. But rusting? Unreasonable to me, what say you? This GLC D4505 lost a patch of paint, but no rust: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_surf_lfs/11764928585/sizes/l.


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## rickycourtney

Joe-

I also suggest checking out the Wiki page for the Canadian Public Transportation Discussion Board: http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki

If you're a public transportation geek like me it's a very interesting quick reference. Just a word of warning... it contains a lot of original research and is poorly cited (both no-no's on a true Wiki page)... so take the information with the appropriate grain of salt.


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## mightyjoe1201

Rusting? Really? That's ridiculous considering prevost is Canadian.

A lot of companies seem to have cut quality over the years. Usually it's when they are having financial trouble. Eventually even MCI will work it out as long as they stay profitable.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I see rusting along the edges where the paint had worn off.

MCI was originally Canadian too, though now they're American.

I don't know if Prevost cut quality or not, but Greyhound does run vehicles harder than anyone else. Greyhound runs up to 150,000 miles a year per vehicle and their average is 130,000 according to a new release. According to the American Bus Association, the average American motorcoach runs about 50,000 miles a year.

So a coach that is good for everyone else could still falter in Greyhound service. There's plenty of coaches than can impress, but it's hard to find a coach that can fight. MCI ought to figure it out before Prevost kills their D4505 with the X3-45. They were getting good again in 2010 but then switched to Cummins-only for the D4505, putting that model in trouble that it may never recover from.


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## mightyjoe1201

I just figured being a Canadian co they would be sure it wouldn't rust when paint gets scraped off. Guess anything is possible when buses get run hard like greyhound does.

Unfortunately there's not many engine choices anymore. Caterpillar stopped on road engines cause they didn't want to price it too high to meet epa requirements. Detroit isn't offered at a cheap enough price to outside vehicle manufacturers. Also a lot of manufacturers don't want the Mercedes companies to have access to their own technology. I know that happened in the trucking world. I may be wrong here but I believe Cummins is the only stand alone engine co left.

Personally I would rather Detroit or cat.

It might take greyhound and other companies to push MCI to offer another engine. Though it would probably cost more. Does MCI parent co offer any engines that they build?


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## Swadian Hardcore

MCI is 10% owned by Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes, Detroit Diesel, Chrysler, and Mitsubishi Fuso. They could certainly cooperate. MCI's offers the J4500 with Detroit DD13 engine, which has Mercedes roots. But they don't offer the DD13 with the D4505, which is somewhat surprising.

I asked MCI what was going on. They said the DD13 is not offered in the D4505 and is "not being developed" for the D4505, because it doesn't meet Buy America requirements due to components made in Germany by Daimler. Of course Greyhound, as a private sector company, has no obligation to Buy America. The same can be said for most other D4505 operators, like Jefferson or Indian Trails.

A lot of people didn't like the CAT C13 ACERT in the D4505, though I doubt the Cummins ISX12 is that much better. Altoona tests showed the C13 ACERT to get noticeably better MPG than the ISX12.

Also surprising is that Arrow Stages' J4500s have Cummins ISX12 engines, even though DD13 is available, though that might be done for fleet commonality with their D4505s. Drivers agree the DD13 is better. Even in a MCI publicity release for the J4500, the test driver said he would have preferred the DD13 over the ISX12 that his demo had.

My theory is that since the D4505 is selling poorly, MCI probably doesn't care to get the DD13 into its engine compartment, even if that might boost sales. Instead, they're just focusing on selling the D4500CT to transit agencies, which must follow Buy America, and thus must buy Cummins.


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## mightyjoe1201

I have to check on this, but I had heard thru the grape vine that Cummins isn't truly made in America. Only assembled here. I'll let you know what I find our.

I'm sure if greyhound really wanted they could get a Detroit in the 4505. May just have to pay more.

Between the isx and isl Cummins I'd rather the isx. Its a bit better and has more get up and go.

Never knew Daimler had a stake in MCI. Learned something new. Thanks.


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## mightyjoe1201

As for the cat, it's normally a more reliable engine from a driver's point of view. Only problem is the parts. Very few after market parts other then filters.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Can't see why the owner can't get parts from CAT or a MCI Service Center. How's the power?

A news release on WSJ says Daimler took the 10% stake on MCI in 2012 when they killed Orion. MCI is primarily owned by some company called KPS Capital Partners, no idea who they are. For more info see: http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304811304577366040176268340. 

Don't exactly know where Cummins is made but I know they have some plants in China. Volvo is actually made in Hagerstown, Maryland, so it fulfills Buy America, but the D13 is far too big for transit buses, so every transit around is now powered by a Cummins ISL9 or variants.

Yeah, Greyhound can get what they want if they pay for it, except it's probably going to be very expensive considering they would have to pay for all the R&D cost of putting a DD13 in a D4505, which I don't know how high it could be. Greyhound doesn't exactly want to do that, last time they did that was with the G4500 debacle. MCI doesn't want to do it themselves because the D4505 is selling poorly and offering the DD13 might not make sales better. Greyhound does have that D4505 order hanging in the balance.

Wikipedia's page on Greyhound is wrong with D4505 numbers. According to Texas DMV, Greyhound has 105 D4505s from the 2010 order, not 88. There were 108, but 3 burned up. They are #86300-86407, of which #86337, 86379, and 86381 have burned up. The latter two caused by blown tires, the other one unknown.


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, parts can be gotten rite from cat or the vehicle maker but they are still expensive. Unlike Detroit and Cummins where you can get parts made by other companies besides the engine makers themselves. I know I was able to get parts for my Cummins isx from other manufacturers when I had my truck. Every co I worked for with cats couldn't do that.

I haven't driven the c13 accert at all but I had driven the c10 thru c12 pre accert engines. Power was very good except the c10. It was the equivalent of the Cummins m11. Had no power especially on hills. I think the highest horsepower was 350 or so.


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## mightyjoe1201

I was on Cummins website. Managed to find a listing of all manufacturing plants and parts supply warehouse locations. Was gonna give the link but can't figure out how to do that without typing it out. May try that tomorrow.

It showed the isx blocks and heads ate made in Indiana but all the other components come from all over the world. At least that's what I got from it. When I get time tomorrow I'll try to send that link. Its too long for me yo remember to type. Plus I'm tired and have to get up before the freaking birds. Lol.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Just copy and paste the link, but I have to go to HTML every time I want to post a link. I think I found it though: http://www.cummins.com/cmi/navigationAction.do?nodeId=9&siteId=1&menuId=1002. 

Yep, it looks like the other Cummins parts come from all over the world. Too confusing for me to get it clear.

I've been trying to find what MCI did to downgrade the D4500 when the went bankrupt. The original D4500 was the same as the 102DL3, it was renamed in 2001. It appears that MCI changed from a riveted to a bonded roof in 2004, the year they went bankrupt. That was also when MCI changed the name to D4500CL. Soon, in 2005, they came out with the D4505 and around that time, the D4500CT as well.

The D4500, D4500CL, and D4500CT all use the 102DL3 VIN prefix, 1M8P, but the D4505 uses a new prefix 1M86. See YARTS fleet list: http://www.yarts.com/rfp/2012/ExhC%20Fleet.pdf. Those say "D4500" but are actually all D4500CT. 

Currently, the D4500CL and D4500CT are offered, the former "unofficially", in that it's not posted on the website, you have to order it to get it. They both have the bonded roof like the D4505, but are also available with the rubber bumpers, fenders, and thick rub rails carried over from the 102DL3 which are advertised to be more durable than the same components on the D4505. The problem is, they still only come with Cummins engines.

Here's a D4500CT in Golden Gate Transit service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kStoUXEwo7c. Other than the headlights and rear end, it looks more like a 102DL3 than a D4505, and has the durable rubber components mentioned above except the rub rails.

I like the GGT livery, but don't know about the red wheel hubs, though I guess with red Cummins engines, it somewhat fits the whole deal. And it does sound just like Greyhound's Cummins-powered D4505s.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound ordered 130 D4505 buses from MCI in April 2013. Any idea if they were all delivered?

Totally off topic... I've spent the last week at Disney World with my fiancée. It's my first trip here and its an impressive operation in terms of transportation. A fleet of more than 300 transit buses, ferryboats, more than a dozen monorail trains and a transfer service that uses motorcoaches (unfortunately all Van Hool) to transport guests between the airport, cruise ship terminal and the resort. Also took a trip over to Kennedy Space Center where they use a huge fleet of D4500 & D4505 coaches for tours. So it was a busy week with plenty for this transportation, space and Disney geek to enjoy.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound employees say they didn't take delivery of all 130. Texas DMV only lists #86503-86567. But #FL86501 and #GA86373 were both spotted and photographed/videotaped. #MA86575 is a D4500CT. Greyhound's next confirmed number is #86650, a 2014 X3-45. I think Greyhound left a gap in the middle for the D4505s. But most of the 86400 numbers haven't been filled yet, only up to #MD86407 which was reportedly running Washington-Ocean City by a Greyhound employee.

That's all I have. The state-owned units probably aren't listed on Texas DMV. But the gaps are very large and suspicious. Huge gap in the 86400s and another from the late 86500s through to the first half of the 86600s. I don't know what's up. Will have to ask the driver next time I get to ride a Greyhound.

Regarding CATs, GLC bought some CAT 3176B-powered DL3s in 1997: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102dl3/1997dl3/index.htm. 

Most have been retired and sold or scrapped except #1003. As stated in a previous post, #999 is now privately-owned. Anyone know how the 3176B was?


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## mightyjoe1201

Yep. That's the page. I use my phone for everything till I can get another computer. My phone won't let me copy and paste.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Photos just posted on GTE by Joe Caronetti show the following GLI units spotted in Dallas:

102DL3 #6143 signed DALLAS, TX presumably Sked 7208 Houston-Dallas (he said he rode it)

102DL3 #85784 signed ATHENS, GA presumably Sked 1556 Dallas-Atlanta

D4505 #OK86388 signed DALLAS, TX presumably Sked 7327 Oklahoma City-Dallas

G4500 (Blue) #7167 signed CHICAGO, IL presumably Sked 1500 Dallas-Chicago

He said he was in Houston for the APTA Expo and took a day trip to Dallas on Greyhound. All the photos were taken in the daytime. #85784 was followed immediately by #7167, which suggest the former was 1556 departing at 12:30 PM with the latter following at 12:40 PM, the former might have been 10 minutes late.

It is unlikely he would have spotted any runs in the morning or evening because he was on a day trip from Houston and the ride to/from Houston is 4 hours.


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## rickycourtney

So interestingly the D4500 & D4505 coaches used by NASA are equipped with transit style seating and no restrooms. I think the exact model is "The Angel" from Freedman Seating. The trips on these buses are fairly short (most under 15 miles round-trip), but conducted tour style so the transit seating makes since.

I was actually pretty impressed with the VanHool C2045 coaches used on the Disney's Magical Express. They're one of the few operators who don't use the standard Van Hool "Body Line" seats, instead they upgraded to Amaya A-2TEN seats with seatbelts which were very comfortable. The buses also had all LED interior lighting, that had a nice low-level green light for when all of the other lights were turned off. The ride was also pretty smooth (not as good as a X3-45) and quiet. Pretty nice bus, it's just a shame it will turn to junk in a couple of years (at which time I'm sure Disney will have long retired them for something better).


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## Swadian Hardcore

That reminds me of Brewster's current tourist 102A3s, which have padded transit-style seating: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638int.jpg. 

The dashboard and exterior still look the same:
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638driver.jpg, 
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_638-4.jpg. 

Guess what else the Canadians got from MCI? A D4505 that looks like this (they actually have two): http://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/3/39/Saskatchewan_Transportation_Company_791-a.jpg. 

 

Yep, most or all of the Van Hools now have the green LED "mood" lighting. I still find it pointless to upgrade a Van Hool considering their low lifespan. Any news on Greyhound's Van Hool leases for BoltBus Seattle?


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## rickycourtney

Here are a couple of pictures I snapped while in Orlando: 



The Disney Magical Express buses have are wrapped with a retro art deco livery with faux silver sides. As a matter of fact all of Disney's buses, including the transit buses, have art deco inspired liveries. It's a sharp look: http://cdn.wdwmagic.com/imgstore/ElementGalleryItems/transportation/Fullsize/Bus-Transportation_Full_18026.jpg

Here are a couple of pictures of the interior of KSC buses I could find online:

http://www.lukeburrage.com/travelpodcast/20120231/20120231-2.jpg

http://img1.10bestmedia.com/Images/Photos/141748/kennedy-space-center-bus-tour-p1470336_54_990x660_201405312123.jpg


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## Swadian Hardcore

That interior looks weird like that, but OK. That must be an old D4500 or 102DL3, it has the old full-width wheelchair door which swings open and has a remote control inside. Those were always factory-installed AFAIK. Greyhound's 6500s and non-second-hand 6600s have them.

As for that Van Hool, I wish they could have fit the livery with the coach better. If disregarding the window line, it almost looks like Greyhound's current livery with different colors. Greyhound's current livery is a "retro" one inspired by their 1920s livery; at least they look very similar in photos. Really doesn't fit a Van Hool so well.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Another door failure on the X3-45: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=801270353227701&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10643139_801268796561190_290330236_o.jpg%3Foh%3D2b06f7aef1087b60f83c9447fec566b7%26oe%3D544E55A9%26__gda__%3D1414425718_66a546489d87708101eded45d42a3360&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10637658_801268796561190_290330236_n.jpg%3Foh%3D2a6756d2fecbeaf92561edb2320e8ef7%26oe%3D544EAFC8%26__gda__%3D1414445911_4304f4e7ddd4782dbd80169cbda8c965&size=1536%2C2048. 

This one looks like it opened but failed to close tightly.

Perhaps the D4505 isn't $hit after all. Kick out that Crappy Cummins!


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## rickycourtney

Yup. I'm sure the doors on MCI buses never have problems. < /sarcasm >


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## Swadian Hardcore

Still better than Prevost when it comes to doors! Unless you want to include the White G4500 which does have many door problems, but I meant the D4505. I'd like to see a bunch of MCI door failures on the D4505 if one wants to assert the X3-45 doesn't have worse doors than the D4505. Obviously, I'm not happy about the D4505's Crappy Cummins either.

Now of course, if one wants pure reliability, the hand-cranked door on the 102A3, MC-12, and before would be better than anything today.


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## rickycourtney

I'm not asserting anything. I'm simply saying that finding a few isolated incidents posted online are not evidence of a rampant problem.

It's just as absurd as finding pictures of D4505's that have burned and concluding that all D4505's have problems with spontaneous combustion.

Bear in mind that these buses get rattled to hell in the tens of thousands of miles they travel each year. I'm not surprised the door latches occasionally have issues. I'd also not be surprised if other bus models have occasional door latch issues.

Also, why have you concluded that Cummins engines are crappy? Because Altoona testing found that they have slightly lower fuel economy? Altoona's fuel economy testing should be taken with a grain of salt, they're not nearly as scientific as the EPA tests you see for cars.

Greyhound is a big company, capable of placing big orders. If they really wanted Detroit Diesel engines, they would have been able to get one.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're right, but the problems now run into each other. The Cummins-powered D4505 and Volvo-powered X3-45 were put through the same tests. The former got 5.92 mpg, the latter 6.85 mpg. Greyhound's running 130,000 miles/year per unit. At that kind of mileage, the D4505 would use 21,959 gallons of ULSD. The X3-45, only 18,978. Nearly 3,000 gallons less. Hardly a small difference. Now times that by hundreds of units and the price of diesel.

Then the problem of putting DD13s in D4505s. Greyhound could insist on that, but the D4505 is already very expensive at $545,000 for a stock ADA (more than H3-45 and J4500 even) and Greyhound might not be willing to commit the funds into Detroit-powered D4505s. Like I said before, I think Greyhound doesn't want to commit and MCI doesn't want to do it if Greyhound doesn't commit, because the DD13 is useless to transit agencies and private sector sales of the D4505 are very low right now.

MCI had to lower the price of the D4500CTH ADA intercity from $870,000 to $831,910 to get the NJT order, according to a NJT employee.

MCI just posted two more new releases on J4500 orders for charter companies. But nothing on the D4505. So far in 2014, only 7 D4505 units have been publically announced, all in the same one little order.

OTOH, Greyhound does still have that 130-unit D4505 order hanging in the balance and nobody knows what's really going on. I can only imagine they are angry at the Cummins. They did order the Detroit-powered D4505 as much as possible before the offering was discontinued in early 2011. That order was originally only 70 units but Greyhound ended up with 108. And many companies use the D4505 while few use the X3-45.

So it's a big stalemate right now AFAIK, and MCI probably holds a charge against Greyhound for hanging up that D4505 order.


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## rickycourtney

I'm trying to update the numbers on the Wikipedia page, let me know if this looks correct:

102DL3 (D4500)

1998-2001: 469 (official number from Greyhound.com)

G4500

2001-2003: 175 (official number from Greyhound.com)

D4505

2010: 88 (official number from Greyhound.com)

2013: 100 (out of an order of 130, Greyhound says there's a total of 188 D4505's in the fleet)

X3-45

2008-2009: 190

2012-2013: 90 (originally an order for 60, increased to 90)

2014: 55 (per METRO Magazine, not included in the 280 figure on Greyhound.com)


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think you mean D4505 for the second "D4500". But anyway, my info is copied directly from the Texas DMV roster and has matching VINs. If you want, I can just copy the roster over to a spreadsheet, convert it to PDF, and then you can easily count the units with absolute precision. I'll just do it right now, it'll be done in no time. Saves me time trying to count the units by hand. I might start a new thread just for roster counting because it'll be big.

I got this message from Hemmt, a Greyhound driver on GTE, regarding the D4505 order cancellation:
"The rumor I heard from an instructor is that the safety dept wanted the adaptive cruise control/fod sensor found on the 2012 and up prevosts added to the mci order and MCI said no so cut the number of buses in the order! This was after the incident on the NYC-Chicago run!"

Like he said, just a rumor. He's apparently lurking on this thread as well.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian,

Like you I'm not a fan of come a parts, I mean Cummins, but after talking with some friends that are still driving truck I found out that the detroits aren't really all that great anymore. Most of them have the dd15 and a few have dd13 but are having major mechanical problems with them.


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## rickycourtney

If you could send me the spreadsheet in addition to the PDF... that would be great!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yep, but people have told me they experienced major mechanical problems with Volvo, Cummins, and Caterpillar, everything has problems now. If nothing else, that SCR, DPF, and DEF are all extra things to maintain. For coaches with radar-assisted adaptive cruise control, that's even more to maintain.

So the "incident on NYC-Chicago" was the case when DL3 #6345 rear-ended a truck in the middle of the night. If the rumors are true, Greyhound thinks the adaptive cruise control would have prevented the accident. I don't think so, but there you go. The radar rarely works anyway. I think we can agree that radar should not be depended on to prevent accidents, and the driver's skill is far more important. Hemmt says he knew the driver and said she was friendly and professional. He said they would meet up at a rear stop and convoy the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The drive lost a leg in the accident.

Many rumors, nothing clear right now.

Do you guys prefer Michelin, Goodyear, Bridgestone, Firestone, or Falken tires? Does anybody even use Falkens for motorcoaches?

Edit: If all you want is the vehicle list from Texas DMV, it's right here: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/, but not in actual spreadsheet form.


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## mightyjoe1201

Personally Michelin or Goodyear. Never heard of Fallen.

Next time I talk to my friends I'll have to ask exactly what problems they are having. I know one guy has been having cylinder problems. He's had to replace the sleeve on two of them over the last three years.


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## rickycourtney

The adaptive cruise control should make life a little easier for drivers and it helps save on fuel costs (the cruise control is usually easier on the throttle), but I think the real reason Greyhound wants that system is for the impact alert feature.

From Prevost:

"This feature will alert the driver if the distance between coach and vehicle ahead closes too quickly, giving the driver an opportunity to take action. Impact Alert is always active and protecting the coach (in cruise or not)."

Interestingly the Prevost AWARE Adaptive Cruise Braking system isn't offered as an option on the X3-45, it's only offered on the H3-45. That means Greyhound likely special ordered it.

Also despite the fancy name Prevost's adaptive cruise control system is an off the shelf product made by Bendix, any company can buy it. If MCI didn't want to offer it, they were just being stubborn.


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## mightyjoe1201

Impact alert systems are worthless cause they go off to often. I used a system made by Eaton, it would go off going around a curve where there was either construction barriers and barrels. Its also possible to disconnect it without the co knowing. The braking part might be good, especially when other drivers don't give you time to react.


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## rickycourtney

Unlike truckers Greyhound drivers don't have a unit assigned to them. They drive a coach for their run and then hand it over to maintenance or another driver who continues the run. There would be little chance for a driver to tamper with the equipment.

That being said I recently rented a Chevy SUV with an accident avoidance system and found it annoying. This system used cameras not radar and it breaked for a shadow on the road.


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## mightyjoe1201

It can be as easy ad either unplugging the system from the back of the unit to just putting duct tape over the speaker to silence it. Its not something that u only do if assigned the vehicle. Yeah, I'd say it's annoying. Using cameras could make a long drive miserable with so much breaking. I always hated the systems but having them was cheaper on the insurance.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, I see the deal here! Govt requires $5 million insurance per motorcoach. If Greyhound can get that insurance policy for cheaper by putting in radar and the impact alert, follow distance alert, and adaptive cruise control that comes with it, then they'll put in radar. Since MCI reportedly refused to do so, Greyhound went to Prevost. In the long run, it's all about money. Of course the D4505 is selling for more than the X3-45 right now anyway, AFAIK, or at least it's selling for more than the H3-45 and J4500.

Even radar isn't always working or reliable. Driver Dale was running #86284 when he said that coach had radar failure and he drove another X3-45 that constantly warned him of a head-on collision, even though no vehicle was around for miles (it must have been on US 40 since he was driving US 40 again when he said that).


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## rickycourtney

Hey John are you still working on that spreadsheet/PDF?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh, it took longer than I thought it would, and I got.....distracted. Well, some really weird things popped out. I was copying over the units and sorting by VIN, and I copied over Greyhound first and then Americanos, right? But when I was copying over the Americanos DL3s ("1M8P") and attempting to sort by VIN, I noticed 2 of them had the same VIN as Greyhound DL3s with different unit numbers.

Serials 52858 and 52864, both 2000 production 102DL3s with Detroit 60 12.7L 370hp engines, were the duplicate units. The entire VINs were the exact same matches down to the check digit. P052858 was reported as both Greyhound #6461 and Americanos #60757. P052864 was reported as both Greyhound #6467 and Americanos #60579.

Then, more confusion. Greyhound #6501 and #6502 were transferred to Americanos and renumbered #60554 and #60555. Here's #60555 recently seen at Los Angeles Garage (Google just updated Street View again): https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0340119,-118.2362583,3a,46.6y,318.66h,72.8t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZAySn5uBkjsiW1Z7Pf9LiA!2e0.

I know that's a Greyhound 6500-series DL3, it has the very wide swinging wheelchair door.

Here's #60529, a nee-Americanos DL3: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336489,-118.2362732,3a,17.7y,227.6h,87.13t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXOP6qVJvn-tG6jyk2W3zXw!2e0.

#60755, used to be Greyhound #6444: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336832,-118.2369905,3a,29.1y,6.46h,79.27t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQgbzwtT3gIYmD__56VM4zQ!2e0.

#60760, used to be #6553: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0337018,-118.2372174,3a,21.5y,142.28h,83.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOTr0-N-Xn4IfhnAyDJ86-Q!2e0.

#60579, one of the duplicated units: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0343854,-118.2374334,3a,15y,323.48h,86.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbLvZO4ig_vHCJYMyTa4PjA!2e0.

Move around to the lift door. Appears to have a wide lift door like the 6500s and unlike the 6400s. If it had been #6467, the lift door would have been narrower, being a retrofit since the 64s didn't have them originally.

You're right, Ricky, the Blue G4500 is allowed in California. Seen right here, #7111, which I have also seen in Reno: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0342075,-118.2374459,3a,75y,91.02h,73.5t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0jHQf1MDgWwxh-SMUfG95A!2e0.

Another Blue G: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0346848,-118.2374125,3a,15y,237.98h,87.84t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sE53WUDL3nqNHWKmypNeYCQ!2e0.

Damn those rumors of Blue G's banned from CA!

To make matters worse, I found a 102D3 with a wheelchair lift: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0350082,-118.2384582,3a,15y,141.59h,86.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx1yKxhOUrsoqkjJryx64-Q!2e0.Appears to be a retrofit, meaning Greyhound wanted to keep it. Or it could be a factory-installed, I don't really know from that angle.

If you saw a Greyhound X3-45 in Los Angeles, most like an ex-Americanos that got new lettering, like this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336758,-118.2368942,3a,22.3y,234.23h,82.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPQbsHucQljKJNOwtC9pvTA!2e0.

Basically, at this point, I'm confused about Greyhound's fleet, very confused. Well, I'm taking a break.

Just as a bonus, true D4505 Domination in Los Angeles: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0336614,-118.2367011,3a,75y,214.8h,77.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHBqvK7rSoKA4RxG21Czhfw!2e0.


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## rickycourtney

Okay well I'm feeling pretty confident with that list I put together earlier.

On Wikipedia I don't want to get too far into the inside baseball of the heritage of these coaches and it needs to be supported by sources I can cite.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You can cite Texas DMV for the following confirmed info:

188 should be correct for the D4505s after discounting BoltBus.

371 X3-45s after discounting BoltBus. A few pilot X3-45s have been transferred to Canada but still remain in that 371. Greyhound's figure of 280 is definitely too low.

234 G4500s. No duplicates or transfers. Definitely confirmed 234 G4500s. I'm thinking Greyhound's figure of 175 are the Blue G4500s, and the rest must be in reserve/storage.

No confirmed info for the 102DL3 right now, but there are at least 502 in the fleet and no more than 506, including 21 confirmed D4500s. Greyhound's figure of 469 must be the line-haul rebuilt units with wheelchair lifts, and the leftovers must be everything else, from ex-Americanos white reserves, to charter-only white, to charter-only blue, etc.


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## rickycourtney

So there's some inconsistencies here...

* In a recent Washington Post article, Greyhound said they have 1,229 motorcoaches in their fleet.

* My count using METRO magazine and Greyhound.com comes to 1,167.

* Your count comes to between 1,295 and 1,299.

* Texas DMV has 1,441 coaches on the roster.


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## Swadian Hardcore

In that Washington Port article, Greyhound might not have included their newest X3-45s, reserve White G's, charter-only White D's, and/or they might not have included Americanos units.
METRO is great for announced orders but it doesn't account very well for options, Americanos, state-owned units, state-funded units, or other units from subsidiaries that have joined Greyhound's fleet.
Yep, that's the count of registered 102DL3, D4500, D4505, G4500, and X3-45 equipment (my count).
You're right, Texas DMV says 1,441 units, but Texas DMV also lists 102D3s, C2045s, T840s, T845s, GCAs, etc, etc, that are rare units in the fleet. If you want to list all those rare units on Wikipedia, go ahead. I only compiled the regular fleet units.
Oh yeah, I found out it has to be between 502 and 504 DL3s, two of the confusing ones were eliminated. There's 502 DL3 VINs registered under Greyhound and/or Americanos, but there's 2 VINs listed twice with different unit numbers.


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## rickycourtney

Interesting... Greyhound Canada posts their schedule changes and gives the public time to respond. Must be legally required in Canada.

http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/csked/bulletins.html


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## Swadian Hardcore

Probably because the rural Canadians in the little towns depend on Greyhound as their lifeline. I wouldn't be surprised if it was required, but I wish they were all in English. Greyhound US also has schedule bulletins, though they haven't posted any since 2013.

Canada still has the old-fashioned regulated bus network which the US had before the 1980s. Deregulation is coming along very slowly. Greyhound Canada is obligated to stop at rural towns even though they are unprofitable, hence GLC's inability to afford new coaches and that special note in the financial report about GLC financial trouble. However, GLC does have special monopolies in BC and possibly other provinces as well.


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## rickycourtney

Also I realized that if you shorten the web address you can access a lot more of the extranet. Maybe you'll find something interesting in here: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup


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## Swadian Hardcore

I found this: http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/pfsm/pageset.html.

If you poke around you'll find the complete fare structure laid out and lots of other complicated information regarding fares.

Van Hool in action at Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15685909242/sizes/o/.

Van Hools in horrible condition at Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15684304475/sizes/o/.

Van Hool getting scrapped in Harlingen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/redfusee/15684308335/sizes/o/.

I'd say no better than a White G.

Peek inside a Greyhound Van Hool in Michigan service: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brandonz/174085690/sizes/o/. Very similar to the White G interior.


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## rickycourtney

So now that the new Plattsburgh, NY production line is ready, Prevost is finally offering the X3-45 Commuter Coach on a wider basis and they've posted a new website for it.

Very similar to the current X3-45 but with a few changes including new H3 style rear end cap.


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## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> So now that the new Plattsburgh, NY production line is ready, Prevost is finally offering the X3-45 Commuter Coach on a wider basis and they've posted a new website for it.
> 
> Very similar to the current X3-45 but with a few changes including new H3 style rear end cap.


These are going to look interesting when Orlando gets them. Never been on a Prevost before, but come 2015, that will change.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I wonder what kind of seats they will have. The seats shown in the Prevost brochure have no seat belts and presumably no containment.

Expect a smooth, quiet ride, but not exactly the greatest views out the window, the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards and are placed high so people under 6' tall will have their shoulder level with the window escape bar.

The adaptive cruise braking and impact warning would be useful for commuter service while they are not so useful for cruising the open road when the traffic is much less and the radar is more prone to braking or getting unplugged by an annoyed driver. I wonder where the grille is now that the X3-45 got the H3-45 rear hatch.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I wonder what kind of seats they will have. The seats shown in the Prevost brochure have no seat belts and presumably no containment.


Those appear to be American Seating Model 2095 seats. They are the same seats that Sound Transit has on its MCI and older model New Flyer buses. From experience I can say they aren't very comfortable.

Right in the brochure Prevost says seats from other manufacturers are available. That makes sense because most transit operators have a standard seat model they use and it's installed in every bus no matter the manufacturer.

Seat belts won't be required on motorcoaches until next year and transit operators might be exempt (don't hold me to that).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Expect a smooth, quiet ride, but not exactly the greatest views out the window, the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards and are placed high so people under 6' tall will have their shoulder level with the window escape bar.


Feel free to supply actual measurements to support your claim. I personally don't think there is much of a difference.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> The adaptive cruise braking and impact warning would be useful for commuter service while they are not so useful for cruising the open road when the traffic is much less and the radar is more prone to braking or getting unplugged by an annoyed driver.


Again, the AWARE system was a special order by Greyhound. It's not officially offered as an option on the X3-45 or the X3-45 Commuter Coach. Clearly Greyhound management thinks it's useful for cruising the open road or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of special ordering it.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> I wonder where the grille is now that the X3-45 got the H3-45 rear hatch.


Prevost has always mounted the radiator on the left side (not the rear) of the X3-45. I assume it's at the same place on the X3-45 Commuter Coach.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Transit operators might be exempt? That would suck! A motorcoach is a motorcoach, transit-operated motorcoaches should not be exempt, or else they should be forbidden to order motorcoaches! I guess that suggests GGT and NJT are exempt too even though they operate 3-hour-long transit routes.

Haven't ridden 2095 much but it's American Seating, what do you expect? It appears 2095 is the standard for commuter coaches, Denver RTD also has it, and so does UTA.

I haven't got actual measurements but you can compare the photos.

X3-45: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15501097039/sizes/l. 
D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhound_bus/12914309894/sizes/l. 

As you can see, the X3-45 window line is approximately 4 inches higher in relation to the floor in comparison to the D4505, assuming the Premier LS is positioned at the same height in the X3-45 as in the D4505. If you look at the seat cushioning you will see a horizontal line in the middle-upper part of the back about 2/3 the way before the headrest. On the X3-45, that line is below the bottom of the window, while on the D4505, that line is above. Anybody above 6' tall probably wouldn't notice.

Basically, the bottom of the X3-45 window line feels like the MC-12 window line whereas the D4505 one is the same as the 102A3, B, C, and D models. The 96A3 (right before 102A3) got an extended window line bigger than the MC-9. That window line was extended downwards to the MC-9's driver window position, while the 96A3 driver's window was further lower. This is why the 96A3 had the dashboard jutting out above the bottom of the windshield while the MC-9 dash was completely concealed; the 96A3 had the same driver's seat and dash height albeit redesigned.

Here's a MC-9: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/14819040090/sizes/l. 
Here's a 102A3 (widened 96A3): https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/14819040090/sizes/l. 

See how the top of the 102A3 dashboard is lined up with the bottom of the passenger window line?

The X3-45 window line being from the LeMirage, designed in 1976 during the MC-8 era, even before the MC-9, would explain the lack of sight line depression. The panoramic windows of the LeMirage were designed for elevation, looking up, which is not useful for shorter people in the window seat trying to lean on the window (me).

See this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/8715452743/sizes/l. 

The windows don't go down, only up, and the headroom of the X3-45 is a bit more than the MC-9 IIRC.

Perhaps next time I'll ride them again and measure it for you, though I probably won't get to ride X3-45s much. I'll measure the D4505, no problem.


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## Caesar La Rock

I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.


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## Swadian Hardcore

4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/. 

That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.

Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/.
> 
> That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.
> 
> Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!


Yep, those four are what I assume we would get. Too soon to tell though.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well if you had to choose one of those, which one would you choose? I love the Patriot but the Torino G meets the latest safety regulations in containment and 3-point seat belts. Greyhound uses the Patriot in their 102DL3 and the Brasil in their G4500, though they have the version of the Brasil with a full back and fixed headrests, apparently the first Gaudi.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> As you can see, the X3-45 window line is approximately 4 inches higher in relation to the floor in comparison to the D4505, assuming the Premier LS is positioned at the same height in the X3-45 as in the D4505. If you look at the seat cushioning you will see a horizontal line in the middle-upper part of the back about 2/3 the way before the headrest. On the X3-45, that line is below the bottom of the window, while on the D4505, that line is above. Anybody above 6' tall probably wouldn't notice.


I agree that the windows are placed up higher on the X3-45 than the D4505. I would assume that's because while the D4505 is taller, the X3-45 has more interior height. But I don't agree that "the windows are quite small by motorcoach standards"...in fact if you count the wraparound portion, they seem to be bigger than the D4505's windows.

You mention the seat height... remember Greyhound helped design the Premier seat and they designed it for use in the X3-45. I will point out that Greyhound did put an armrest on the window side to compensate for the height of the window and that having less of your body exposed to glass isn't a bad thing in a crash.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Transit operators might be exempt? That would suck! A motorcoach is a motorcoach, transit-operated motorcoaches should not be exempt, or else they should be forbidden to order motorcoaches! I guess that suggests GGT and NJT are exempt too even though they operate 3-hour-long transit routes.


So I went back and re-read the NHTSA rule... it turns out that over-the-road buses (characterized by an elevated passenger deck located over a baggage compartment) are subject to the rule... even if they are operated by a transit agency.

That sets up an interesting situation here in the Puget Sound:


Sound Transit's route 512 runs from Everett to Seattle. It's a 61 minute, 30 mile journey. Along the way there are several freeway stations , so to accommodate passengers entering/exiting the route is assigned 60 foot articulated buses that have 2 doors. For the foreseeable future, those buses won't have seat belts.
Sound Transit's route 590 runs from Tacoma to Seattle. It's a 68 minute, 33 mile journey. It doesn't make any stops along the way so it's assigned D4500CT buses. Any new buses will have to have seat belts.
Also worth mentioning that unlike a lot of transit agencies... Sound Transit's buses are only used on commuter routes. They aren't from a larger fleet used on urban routes.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> 4one? You means this? http://www.4one.com/type/motor-coach/.
> 
> That's just Amaya. Amaya Torino G, Brasil, Patriot, why are they not 4ONE? What's going on here? I'm understandably confused. Not sure what Pepito is, but I think it's a FAINSA spin-off. Looks a lot like the FAINSA Gaudi: http://www.fainsa.com/en/index.php.
> 
> Wait a second, doesn't the G4500 have Brasil? So the Brasil is a FAINSA, not an Amaya? Then Greyhound Canada would have Brasil VIP, not Torino VIP. Aw man, I'm confused!


As far as I can tell all the seat manufacturers are in bed with each other.

4one is a joint venture of Freedman Seating and USSC. Amaya has a distribution agreement with Freedman Seating for sales to the transit market. FAINSA is the "european partner" of Amaya.

At the end of the day most of 4one's seats are "rebadged" versions of a seat from another manufacturer.



THE CJ said:


> I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.


How long are these new commuter routes? The 4one Gemini could work for routes that are like 45-60 minutes long... but they don't look very comfortable (especially in a motorcoach running at freeway speeds).

Also what's your opinion of the Nova artics? I rode a Nova bus for the first time last month at Disney World... I was not impressed (I mean what's the deal with that stupid seat behind the drivers seat? Is that just for people who enjoy eating their kneecaps or attacking drivers??)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Like many things in the bus industry, there seems to be many Catch 22s with these situations. Like the windows, for example. A single D4505 window should be larger than a single X3-45 window, the former has 8 passenger windows per side while the latter has 9. The X3-45 windows go up more, but the D4505 windows go down more. Going down more might be bad in an accident, but going up could also cause a "crushing" effect in an accident. The D4505 roof wraps down which could prove extra protection in a rollover accident compared to the X3-45. So, it's all many Catch 22s.

Same thing with the Scenicruiser. Great for views, not exactly so safe in an accident. I heard dome cars on trains aren't exactly well-protected either, but you get the views. You gain something you lose something. I sure am in no position to make judgment on these balances.

102A3 does have massive windows: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/4407319949/sizes/l.

I don't know how much Greyhound put into the Premier design. They definitely supported the Premier but I have not seen evidence that they directly helped design it. Now word on the street is that they are not buying Premiers again due to endless passenger complaints.

That Sound Transit situation is indeed interesting. I heard their units are actually split between KCM, Pierce, and Community Transit ownership. Only Pierce has D4500CLs. The current look of things is that motorcoaches are going to be safer than transit buses. Actually, even without seat belts, that would make sense from an observer's POV. Motorcoaches sit high above the road and have thicker walls than transit buses. North American motorcoaches generally have double walls for the air vents in between. Plus they have more axles, longer wheelbases, (generally) bigger fenders, and heavier weight. In an accident, it is difficult to fathom a low-floor transit being safer than a motorcoach.

This is why I find motorcoaches to be "overkill" for short routes. I rode the AC Transit LA from Richmond (CA) to San Francisco during morning rush. There were less than 10 people aboard. It was a 2003 D4500 (#6052) built right before MCI went bankrupt.

Yeah, the Novas have a weird seat behind the driver. I saw that in Chicago on the 56, CTA has some LFS. If you sit there, you're basically staring at the black divider.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That Sound Transit situation is indeed interesting. I heard their units are actually split between KCM, Pierce, and Community Transit ownership. Only Pierce has D4500CLs.


Actually, Sound Transit owns all of their buses. But they contract with King County Metro, Pierce Transit and Community Transit operate and maintain the buses. All of the D4500CLs are operated and maintained by Pierce Transit.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> The current look of things is that motorcoaches are going to be safer than transit buses. Actually, even without seat belts, that would make sense from an observer's POV. Motorcoaches sit high above the road and have thicker walls than transit buses. North American motorcoaches generally have double walls for the air vents in between. Plus they have more axles, longer wheelbases, (generally) bigger fenders, and heavier weight. In an accident, it is difficult to fathom a low-floor transit being safer than a motorcoach.


I understand your logic... but the facts don't back it up. There is a lower chance that you will die in a transit bus crash compared to a crash in other buses.From NHTSA's final rule:



> This final rule excludes transit buses from today’s lap/shoulder seat belt requirements because fatality data for urban transit buses differ significantly from that of other buses with a GVWR greater than 11,793 kg (26,000 lb). We believe this difference is due in part to the stop-and-go manner of transit bus operation. Updated FARS data from 2000-2009 continue to show that for all bus body types with a GVWR greater than 11,793 kg (26,000 lb), transit buses have the fewest fatalities at 8.2 percent or 23 out of a total of 281. These same data show that there were 20 fatal crashes involving occupants of urban transit buses, resulting in fatalities of 11 drivers and 12 were passengers. Thus, fatal transit bus crashes involve about one fatality, on average. In summary, there are many fewer total fatalities and fatalities per crash for transit buses, and thus a significantly lower risk than in the buses covered by this final rule.


That being said... there isn't specific data about transit buses involved in accidents on highways.


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## Swadian Hardcore

But that comparison isn't exactly fair because it pits transits overall against motorcoaches overall. Like the rule says, it's due to the stop-and-go nature of transits. Motorcoaches operate at much higher speeds over much longer distances than transits. Motorcoaches might also go through many different kinds of terrain and weather in rapid succession. A good example would be the Denver-Reno which goes through mountains, forests, plains, and deserts all on one route. It drives at slow speeds over Berthoud Pass but hits 75 mph on the desert.

The point with Sound Transit is that they are using transits on highways and not on city streets. Fortunately, they do not need to run Denver-Reno.

If you run, you'll probably stumble more than if you walked.


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## rickycourtney

Since you frequently ask about engines... it got me thinking about the alternative options MCI offers on the D4500. They have both CNG and diesel-electric hybrid versions. Installing either would be a good public relations move for Greyhound but I don't see them doing it.

CNG would require a huge investment in infrastructure and would require the loss of a luggage bay and it's potential GPX revenue.

Diesel-electric hybrid could work... but considering the amount of highway miles these buses get... it would take a long time to save enough fuel to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid system.

As an aside, I fully expect Sound Transit's next motorcoach order to use either CNG or Hybrid engines.


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## Swadian Hardcore

CNG would be impractical for Greyhound because those units would be unable to use Greyhound's own established diesel reserves in major refueling stations like Reno and Oakland. Blocking out an entire luggage bay would be very disadvantageous because that would reduce Greyhound units to Megabus luggage capacity and reduce GPX revenue to zero.

Hybrids suffer the problems you say. According to NJT, a D4500CTH costs $880,000; NJT managed to lower that to $840,000 with negotiations. Also, the D4500CTH only comes with the Cummins ISL which is a small transit engine that is underpowered for motorcoaches. It's OK for running the streets, but at highway speeds Greyhound drivers would have to kick it into high RPM or over-RPM just to keep up. An ISL-powered New Flyer XD40 transit tops out at 45 mph, according to Altoona Bus Testing. A D4500 is significantly larger and heavier than a XD40.

While Altoona might not be the best source for specific information to compare, they did say the XD40 never managed to exceed 46 mph.


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## rickycourtney

Well the diesel engine doesn't need to be as big when it's paired with a electric motor. The electric motor does the heavy lifting in regards to bringing the coach from a full stop up to 5mph at which point the diesel engine plays a bigger role.

That first part of acceleration is the hardest part and requires the most torque. That's why a bigger diesel engine isn't necessary.

Hybrid buses are totally capable of highway speeds. The New Flyer DE60LF buses here frequently hit 65 mph.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Really? Then the XD40 must be pathetic.

Here's the XDE40: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/350. 

The XD40: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/416. 

And the tiny D30LF: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/reports/275.pdf?1268425149. (Awesome MPG!) 

Here's the D4500CTH: http://www.altoonabustest.com/buses/136.

Yep, the XDE40 seems to perform better than the XD40 but the D4500CTH performed worse than the diesel D4500.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So we know the White G and the Blue G, right? Then I just found a Yellow G! Look: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/11165020936/sizes/l.

Running for Tornado Internacional. And still has warped parts!


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well if you had to choose one of those, which one would you choose? I love the Patriot but the Torino G meets the latest safety regulations in containment and 3-point seat belts. Greyhound uses the Patriot in their 102DL3 and the Brasil in their G4500, though they have the version of the Brasil with a full back and fixed headrests, apparently the first Gaudi.


I like the Patriot too. It looks good, along with the Pepito. The last motorcoach I rode on, which was a Van Hool, had seats similar to these. Not sure if they were the same seat model though.

http://www.mearsbussellers.com/Gallery.aspx



rickycourtney said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think for seating on Lynx's Prevost commuter coaches, they will probably use 4one, since it is an option, along with American Seating. Lynx uses 4one Gemini on the 2013-2014 Gillig BRTs and the 2013 Nova artics.
> 
> 
> 
> How long are these new commuter routes? The 4one Gemini could work for routes that are like 45-60 minutes long... but they don't look very comfortable (especially in a motorcoach running at freeway speeds).
> 
> Also what's your opinion of the Nova artics? I rode a Nova bus for the first time last month at Disney World... I was not impressed (I mean what's the deal with that stupid seat behind the drivers seat? Is that just for people who enjoy eating their kneecaps or attacking drivers??)
Click to expand...


It depends on the routes. Lynx has eight routes that are eligible or will be eligible for motorcoaches. Some of those routes take a total of 40-45 minutes, while others run for over an hour. Some of the routes in question do not use the highway and are limited stop routes.

The majority of the routes though use the highway (I-4). The Nova artics we have are hybrids, so they can vary. Sometimes I see them and other times I don't. Sometimes the 16 year old D60s doing the work, while the Novas are in the garage getting work done on them for something.

Lynx has two NABI artics (built in 2010) that I haven't seen in the last few months. Sources telling me that those two buses could be retired early, due to ongoing unreliability issues.

Lynx also have the same front seat on our four artics. I don't know why it's there, but I guess it's an option for Nova. Lynx ordering from Nova is what actually may have helped their chances of getting Prevost, due to the obvious reasons.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Van Hool for sale in the pictures you posted appears to have American Seating. I'm not a big fan of riding in the current American Seating, the Premier is worst but the other 2003, 2095, etc., are not that great either. JMO.

Here's National Seating 4210S, a very popular charter seat in the late 1990s/early 2000s : http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/inventory/photos/lrg_MCI-102EL3-C60123-seats.JPG.

Lots of competition right now between American Seating and Amaya-Astron Seating. National is being kicked by the wayside which seems surprising since their seats have a reputation of comfort. Right now if National wants to get back in they probably should campaign for the next order from Greyhound; Greyhound's currently angry at American Seating for the Painful Premier and is now looking to buy Amaya or National.


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## rickycourtney

Like I said... Greyhound helped design the "painful Premier". Heck David Leach is even in a promotional video saying so:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Interesting that the video was made in 2012 but you already see a Blue G. I think that was #40205 which was merely repainted and later destroyed in "The Dark Knight Rises". They also had a Blue DL3 in it #6077. The DL3s and Blue G's don't have the Premier. They also used a D4505 as the feature instead of the X3-45.

I believe the donated bus was donated for crash testing, not to American Seating. I don't doubt that Greyhound's engineers helped American Seating, but I think nobody tried to break it in and then sit in it.

Perhaps they helped design it but they only tested it for safety and not for comfort. Or at least not for comfort after breaking in. There's rumors that Greyhound will order from National or Amaya next time. If the G4500 was a major disaster for equipment, the Premier was a major disaster for seating, especially since many are now chipped, cracked, or warped. They've only been around 5 years. Greyhound dropped the G4500 even though they helped design it. No one can say they won't drop the Premier now since they're not just painful, they're also low-quality.


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## rickycourtney

I mean I'll give American Seating credit... at the time of its introduction the Premier was a pretty revolutionary design. The seatbelts offered protection to passengers who chose to use them, while the containment technology still offered some level of protection to unbelted passengers. But fast forward to today and as the NHTSA rules go into several other manufacturers have seats with both seatbelts and containment... and they are all more comfortable than the Premier or the "improved" Premier LS.

Personally if I was buying a bus... I'd go with the Amaya A-2TEN. I've sat in the seat several times and always found it to be very comfortable.

I know you're a fan of the Torino G Plus, but I'm a bit skeptical. I think the side mounted seat belt design is awkward and I prefer having a seperate head rest over a high back seat. I've also heard it's the most expensive Amaya seat. But I've never sat in the Torino G Plus, maybe that would change my mind.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm actually only a supporter of the Torino G Plus. Like you, I have never sat in it, and I'm definitely not a "fan" though of course I simply have no opinion.

If you ever ride Arrow & Black Hills Stages, they use Torino G Plus.

What I see is that American Seating took the lead in safety but lost out on quality. Now they can easily get pummeled by Amaya-Astron with their A2-TEN and Torino G Plus. But the wild card is National Seating. They were the leader of the industry for years. When you bought a 102DL3, the standard seat was National 4210A. When you bought a 102EL3, the standard seat was National 4210S. Even in the early J4500 days, the standard seat was National 4210S. Then the Brasil, apparently a joint venture of FAINSA and Amaya, came in and wiped out the 4210. Apparently Greyhound sped that along by ordering large numbers of Brasils for the G4500.

I'm not sure if Greyhound Canada has Brasil VIP or Torino VIP. Torino Standard is also often confused with Brasil, AFAIK. These are Brasils: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14558382441/sizes/l.

Freedman rebranded the Brasil for their own sale: http://www.freedmanseating.com/seats_and_accessories/coach_seats/freedman_brasil/.


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## rickycourtney

I think more important than what Greyhound purchases is what the motorcoaches manufacturers choose as their "standard" seats and what they choose to list as optional seats.

In that regard it seems Amaya is doing something right. Amaya seats come standard on the D & J series coaches. Heck all of the "listed" optional seats on the J series are Amaya.

I would imagine most buyers, especially small charter operators, just choose to get whatever comes standard.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I heard though the grapevine (GTE) that there's many, many unlisted options and many coaches can be ordered with all kinds of things. I'm sure MCI would be more than happy to install National if someone actually ordered it. The problem is, I haven't heard about a new order with National for a long time. Many of Peter Pan's J's have them.

Any news on the Van Hools for BoltBus Seattle? I guess that was a rumor with no basis. I did fina a trip report on the H3-45 running Vancouver-Seattle: http://www.accidentaltravelwriter.net/accidental-travel-writer/2014/07/travelogue-how-not-to-travel-from-vancouver-to-seattle.html. 

Those seats are National 4210S. That's a 2001 ex-Coach America H3-45, painted plain white. I guess the blue one would have had more legroom. Here's the interior photo: http://www.accidentaltravelwriter.net/.a/6a0148c6f68c01970c01a3fd281c63970b-pi.


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## rickycourtney

Oh I have no doubt that you can order any seat type you wish... It's just that Amaya is the standard seat and the "listed" optional seat in the J series brochure.

Provost takes a different approach. The brochure for the X series and H series both simply says that Amaya, American and National seats are all options.

I haven't seen any Van Hool coaches in BoltBus livery. I'll keep my eyes open but it might have been just a rumor.

That's an interesting blog post. It's good that while he didn't want to take Greyhound, he ended up having a good experience. I'm curious to see what the interior of those H3-45 buses look like now that they've been repainted. I'm curious if they just got a fresh coat of paint and had some seats removed or if they did more like replacing the seat covers with leather (although those seat covers look pretty new), removing the television monitors and replacing that grungy headliner.

Regardless they are good looking and good sounding buses. Overall a nice addition to the fleet especially when you consider Greyhound probably got a good bargain on them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't think the seat covers of those H3-45s are that new. They look newer from the back because passengers sit on the other side. Texas DMV says those units are 2001s, don't know if they have a DPF or not. Coach America went bankrupt and I don't think we should overestimate their maintenance efforts in those final years.

On another note, here's another trip report I found, this time an Americanos D4505, 2006, FAINSA seats and curtains too. Seems like a very grungy headliner. Very awkward to see a motorcoach with curtains but open parcel racks and no monitors.

Here: http://stophavingaboringlife.com/taking-a-ride-on-the-greyhound/#comment-483472.


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## rickycourtney

Well those seat covers are clearly not original they would be much more faded (like the headliner is) if they were 14 years old.

It's funny in both of this blog posts the reviewer was "disappointed" with their Greyhound experience but in both cases they each had a fairly positive experience. Also the second blog post speaks to what I was saying about the importance of customer experience. I doubt he would have noticed the real age of the bus... what he did noticewas that it didn't have Wi-Fi and power outlets.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, you're right. He thought that 2006 D4505 was old, while many have thought 1998 102DL3s to be new, since they have been rebuilt. And many people also think the Blue G's are new, even though they used to be the stinking horrible White G's (The Dirty Dogs).

I'm going on a Greyhound tomorrow (to Sacramento) so I was looking for some stories. Here's another short one: http://www.vegaschatter.com/story/2011/9/17/10446/3899/vegas-travel/Good+Manners+Still+Exist...+On+The+Greyhound+Bus. 

Here's another interesting one, lots of pictures: http://trainsandboatsandplanesandtheoddbus.blogspot.com/2013_06_01_archive.html. 

There's a DL3 he apparently rode from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. #6572. That one must have a DPF since it was also spotted by Streetcar Mike. That trip reports starts here: http://trainsandboatsandplanesandtheoddbus.blogspot.com/2013/05/route-66-part-one.html. 

What I found most surprising was this picture: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NFO6_9EP67A/Ub8z9cu_wWI/AAAAAAAAF3E/ryG4Owd-Qs8/s1600/Bus+passengers+(enhance).jpg. That's inside a DL3 with enclosed parcel racks and TV monitors. And winged headrests. At the front you can make out the numbers "1039". So it must have been this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/5885958328/sizes/l. 

But then he says he rode it out of Oklahoma City. A GLC coach with no wheelchair lift running deep in the US? Ah, I'm confused.

The last thing I found was this: http://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/OtUTwdemYhS7UsjRXZ44KA/348s.jpg. 

That's a DL3 interior, apparently Los Angeles-Las Vegas. But the seats are not Patriot PT. They look like Patriot PT, but they're not. This is Patriot PT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/koyah7d/6794537825/sizes/l.

Patriot PT has different armrests and is more curved at the top.

Oh yeah, I was wondering if the 102" width is for the main body or does it include the mirrors, fender skirts, and rub rails as well?


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## mightyjoe1201

The 102" width does not include mirrors. It usually is just the main body. Rub rails and such don't really stick out enough to make a difference.


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## rickycourtney

If you don't mind me asking... what brings you to Sacramento? Going to visit someone or just looking for a joyride on Greyhound?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sacramento? That's just a joyride. When I get to Las Vegas, I'll probably get some business done and meet some friends. Could've taken the new Silver State straight to Las Vegas but they are very expensive and use Van Hools. So I'm riding Silver State back.

This way I also get to ride Orange Belt Stages which is a nice little company that uses National Seating, something I'm eager to try out since I haven't sat in Nationals for years. Silver State used FAINSA and Amaya.


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## rickycourtney

Oh I didn't see that you were going all the way to Vegas. Have fun, but not too much fun... that's how you get into trouble in that town.

I'm aware of Orange Belt Stages, they are based out of Visalia. They always looked like they ran a good operation, but I never got a chance to ride them when I lived in that area. If I remember correctly they operate mostly E4500's.

In addition to the Las Vegas route, Orange Belt Stages also runs a route from Hanford to the Central Coast (Paso Robles/San Luis Obispo/Santa Maria), that is sold as an Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach route. They also operate a shuttle route for the San Joaquin train that runs from Visalia to Hanford. As a matter of fact... at the beginning of its run, the Las Vegas bus carries Amtrak passengers from Hanford to Visalia before heading to Bakersfield and Las Vegas.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks. I'll be careful in Las Vegas. I won't throw my cash away, hehe. Probably going to ride a lot of transit. I'll tell you how it goes. It's going to be interesting to ride Orange Belt, especially if they have E4500s. Their website says year 2000 which would make them 102EL3s. They have National seats which will be good to compare with Amaya-Astron.

I'm going right now. Got to catch the 2:50 PM Sked 8315 out of Reno.

Really interested to see the equipment. I expect tons of D4505s, but this time I am prepared. Got the pillow ready to sit on.

All right, GO!


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## rickycourtney

So are you overnighting in Sacramento? I don't see a same day routinga using Orange Belt Stages. I'm also guessing you intentionally chose the non-express schedule.

Also I don't know if you're a smartphone owner but Greyhound finally has an app for iPhone and Android. It's a lot like the BoltBus app but without mobile ticketing (at least at this point).


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## mightyjoe1201

Didn't know greyhound had a android app. I'll have to find it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I am not a smartphone owner but I am borrowing one right now to post because this hotel in Las Vegas doesn't have one. A friend let me use his.

So, I rode Greyhound #86550 and #86527. Then i rode Orange Belt #256. Those two Greyhound D4505s were fine, save for the sagging seats. I sat on my jacket. They were both bit loud with the Cummins, but rode smooth.

The Orange Belt was a DL3. You know that's my favorite. But the ride was botched because the driver was a jerk. She saw me taking pics and made me delete them. I still got out with some. Remember, Orange Belt has no photography ban. So that really sucked. But I did manage to get out with some of the shot. I wold not recommend riding Orange Belt. Also, the coach had shades but some were missing. It also had a step out feature broken. Many of the National 4210A seats were also in poor condition. The restroom had a sink but the water was not working properly. No hand sanitizer. The bus was great but was obviously poorly maintained. So again, don't use OBS. Not half as good as Greyhound.

I'm in Las Vegas right now, saw DL3 #6618 yesterday and #6569 today. Both beautiful buses. Also many D4505s and some blue G's. Some white DL3s too. Ex-Americanos.


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## rickycourtney

That's disappointing to hear the experience on Orange Belt Stages was so lackluster.

I've never understood why bus companies including Greyhound are so paranoid about people taking photos.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll be fair, Orange Belt's DL3 was still a DL3 and was still a great bus. Just their driver was horrible. Called me weird for taking photos of the bus. They took it too far. Even Greyhound didn't make me delete my photos and Greyhound actually has a photography ban.

Right now I'm on a old Silver State leased Van Hool going back to Reno. I want to puke. The ride is so rough, I'm having trouble keying. Driver is better but the bus is $hit. Worse than a White G. Much worse than a White G.


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## rickycourtney

You should send a complaint to Orange Belt Stages. I'm curious to see how they respond.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll do that once I get back to Reno. I'm not going to be riding them again anyway.

Currently I'm still on that $hitty Van Hool rocking down US 50 towards Carson City. It's a very rough ride. Rougher than a White G. I'm done with Orange Belt and I'm done with Silver State. God help me not puke.

Oh yeah, this one'a got no wheelchair lift and it's leased by Silver State. GMAB.


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## Caesar La Rock

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]What model Van Hool is it? I've ridden on a Van Hool T2145 for up to a few hours (school field trip). That was the longest for me in terms of length. Shortest route by a motorcoach was this year on that C2045 from Mears, which was built in 2011 I think. [/SIZE]


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think it was a Van Hool T2140. Oh yeah, the upper wipers were broken too. They're probably not required to be in service. The wipers were flipped up and protruded above the roof of the vehicle.

Here are some of the motorcoaches I saw on this trip:


At Reno prior to departure, D4505 #86564, 60544, and my ride, #86550; Blue G #7137.
At Sacramento the first day, D4505 #86514 (headed back to Reno) and my ride #86550, plus an Americanos G unknown number headed to Los Angeles.
At Sacramento the second day, a Blue G unknown seen from my hotel room, Blue G #7269 came in from Seattle (handed off to a D4505), D4505s #86338, #86358, and #86368, my ride #86527, and Blue G #7134 headed to Portland.
Passed another D4505 headed northbound on 99.
We paralleled #86535 which was running San Francisco-Los Angeles express.
At Fresno, Americanos #60542, a White D4505, and #86535.
At Bakersfield, there was my ride #86527, the aforementioned #86535, and #86316 headed northbound. Also Orange Belt #256.
While on Orange Belt, we passed another Greyhound D4505 pulling into Barstow right as we pulled out.
At Las Vegas, there were a bunch of Blue G's, D4505's, White DL3's, and a Blue D4500 (#6618). There were Americanos White DL3's with lifts and Greyhound White DL3s that were charter only.
Next day in Vegas I saw more D4505s, more Blue G's, and Blue DL3 #6569. The same White DL3s were moving around coming in and out of charters. One White Greyhound DL3 was parked at the gates.
Third day in Vegas before leaving, I saw more of the same. Blue DL3 #6569 stayed overnight and departed for Salt Lake City in the morning.
Back in Reno I saw Blue G #7149 and D4505s #86354 and #86535 (again!).
Unknown D4505 pulled into Reno from San Francisco.
I rode #86535 from Glenwood to Denver a few months ago. That's when it was running Las Vegas-Denver.

Basically, you can see the D4505 Domination out here but the Blue G is very prevalent once you get to the Northwest or the Intermountain regions. Blue G seems to dominate everything north of Sacramento and is also common east of Reno/Las Vegas, though the D4505 is really mixed in with the Blue G for the latter.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I found this awkward Amtrak California J4500 with a bike rack: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/15129467004/in/[email protected].

Anybody know what's going on there?

Also, Greyhound just updated Street View for Atlanta and we have a Blue G, a D4505, and two DL3s: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7483796,-84.3968721,3a,46.8y,95.55h,78.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCbFtsZ21Ib-eEzx9TMbziA!2e0.


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## rickycourtney

That's at Emeryville station. Passengers on Capitol Corridor and San Joaquin trains disembark at Emeryville to catch the bus to San Francisco.

It doesn't surprise me that the bus has a bike racis, bikes are extremely popular on Capitol Corridor trains (they've had to add extra racks to the California cars). It's also not that strange to have a bike rack on a coach. The D4500s used by Sound Transit anf LADOT Commuter Express both have bumper mounted racks. Sportworks even makes a rack that goes into underfloor baggage compartment of MCI buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I looking inside a J4500 in Las Vegas and measured the parcel racks. They're actually only 10" tall with the doors open, no better than the D4505. Also, their windows were elevated 34" off the floor, while the D4505 and 102DL3 are both elevated at 28".

The Van Hool T2140 was 34" as well, same with the MC-12. Seems like 34" is the industry standard but the D models have 28". I'm assuming the A, B, and C models have similar elevations.

I believe the H3-45 is also around 34" (by looking at pictures of seats) but I don't know about the X3-45.


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## rickycourtney

Again, the parcel racks are useless for rollaboard baggage. Now we just have a measurement to back that up.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I will say though, if there hadn't been the doors opening inward, maybe a bit more luggage would fit in there. I believe the G4500 might be able to fit something a bit bigger. G4500 seems to have the absolute maximum overhead luggage capacity in buses.

I was surprised at the amount of White DL3s I saw at Las Vegas though now that I think of it, there wasn't that many and they were charter-only so I must have been seeing the same units over and over again. There were some Americanos White DL3s that had retrofitted lifts, like #60529. They seem to have the same seats as the White G's which would be FAINSA cloth velour.

Oh yeah, the MC-12 I saw was actually a pretty nice bus. It was an old 1995 and had a dead engine (6V92TA). The seats were comfortable Nationals with tons of recline. Better than the White G4500 for sure.

The Van Hool Bodylines gave me back pain and were so uncomfortable I would not call them any better than the Painful Premiers but then again, the entire vehicle had been very poorly maintained and the HVAC was broken along with the lavatory not having hand sanitizer or running water. I don't want to ride 10 hours in a non-reclining seat on a bumpy Van Hool again. As much as I hate to say this, Orange Belt was better than Silver State even though their driver was a jerk.

At this point I'm not sure if I should complain to Orange Belt because it might alert them to photography and cause them to enact an official photography ban.


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## rickycourtney

That's why I like the design of the enclosed overhead bins on the D and X series buses. The doors swing up and out so they don't take away from the luggage space.

You should complain. Even if you don't mention the photography rule, the bus was in terrible shape (no sink or sanitizer is unsanitary) and it sounds like the driver needs some retraining in customer service.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think you got a bit confused. The Orange Belt DL3 had sink and no sanitizer, but the holding tank for the sink must have been very low on water because the water failed to come out until I lodged the know all the way and even then it only came out in a tiny trickle. Of course, the driver was a jerk, the seats were stained and broken, and the shades were also broken.

The Silver State had a much better driver but he wasn't exactly in the greatest mood since his Van Hool T2140 had broken HVAC, the lavatory had no sink or sanitizer, the seats were broken junk, the upper windshield wipers were bent and useless, and many of the interior lights were broken. Plus the lavatory as a whole smelled bad, had cracked and stained-brown walls, and was just in deplorable condition.

Overall, the Orange Belt was a better ride than the Silver State but the latter had a much better driver. Greyhound is better than both because Greyhound has reliable sanitizer and seats that at least work correctly. It was pathetic that the trickle of running water from the Orange Belt sink was less than the trickle of sanitizer on Greyhound.


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## rickycourtney

I prefer to wash my hands in a sink, so I appreciate the fact that they paid extra for that option, but it's useless if they don't keep it in working order. I think it's still worth complaining about. These companies won't improve if they don't get feedback.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So I guess I'll just contact them by e-mail? All right, let's see what happens even though the weekend is coming up. I have just sent the e-mails to the respective companies.

I was told some companies don't like the enclosed parcel racks because passengers on long rides sometimes leave things in there and then get mad at the company and demand reimbursement.

MCI seems to have really hit a chord when they unveiled the 96A3 in Salt Lake City back in February 1984. That was the first MCI model to have the enclosed parcel racks swinging up and it also had the new oversized windows. GLI had 72 96A3s, #1300-1371, before switching to the 102A3 of which they purchased 925. To this day I think the 96A3 has been one of the most obscure and forgotten buses even though it was "the thing of the time": http://www.busdrawings.com/coach/greyhoundus/96a3/gli1339.jpg. 

Prevost's original enclosed racks were apparently simply the old open racks with the doors added.


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## rickycourtney

The other reason they don't like them is that they come at additional expense.

They look cleaner and I would think they are safer in an accident or an abrupt maneuver.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they cost a bit more but only a bit more. Like a few thousand dollars. Not much at all. A new pair of Amaya seats costs a thousand and a new pair of Nationals even more.

Greyhound Canada ordered them for a long time but now they aren't ordering anything.

I heard the expenses of passengers forgetting items in them was far higher than the additional cost of installing them. In that apparently, passengers forgetting items inside the bus are to be paid for them. At this point, I don't really know.

Oh yeah, how's the Series 50 compared to 6V92TA? The late-model MC-12s had the Series 50 but most of them had 6V92TAs. Some drivers prefer the Series 50 but most seem to prefer the 6V92TA. I ask because I saw one of those in Las Vegas (a 1995 MC-12 with the 6V92TA) and the owner told me the engine's blown and said four-strokes are better. That's how I got to poke around and found the window elevation to be 34" and the National seats to be comfortable. Open parcel racks that looked the same as the 96A3's open version. Has the manual door and the manual roll sign.


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## rickycourtney

I don't know why bus operators would be responsible for luggage left in overhead bins... the passengers brought that luggage onboard, so it's their responsibility.

That's in contrast to checked luggage where passengers surrender their baggage to the operator for transportation.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Which leads up to the problem of Greyhound's checked baggage transferring. Greyhound says they are not responsible for transferring any baggage, including checked baggage, and that passengers must do it by themselves. But it's apparent that about half of all Greyhound complaints right now involve losing baggage. Most people simply complaint that "Greyhound lose my bags".

I'm assuming these people are talking about checked baggage. They must have transferred buses and forgotten to transfer their baggage. They must have expected Greyhound baggage handler to do it, obviously not going to happen. Drivers now increasingly make announcements to remind passengers, but it's inconsistent and even when the driver does it, there's no guarantee the passengers will all pay attention, especially if they're texting or have headphones on.

Then you have problems with Greyhound's baggage unloading that many passengers fail to understand. Greyhound baggage handlers unload baggage from the cargo hold and place them by the bus. During this time, the passengers are supposed to line up and wait with their claim tickets in hand ready to claim the baggage after the handlers are done unloading. But many passengers make the mistake of rushing baggage handlers right after they get off the bus, looking for their bags. This situation could easily cause theft and that's why baggage handlers are told to resist any passenger's advances until he's done unloading the bags and is able to keep an eye on things.

That's when many passengers get mad and complain to Greyhound about rude and aggressive baggage handlers. Most fail to understand that the handlers get highly agitated when passengers try to actively look for their bags and that the handlers are going to, understandably, tell those passengers to "back the f--k off".

So if you're riding Greyhound, it's best not to approach baggage handlers or check for your bags at an intermediate stop because that increases the chance of getting into a confrontation which in turn increases the chance of you losing your bags.


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## rickycourtney

Sounds like Greyhound has a pretty serious customer service issue when it comes to baggage handling. I can't think of a reason it would ever be appropriate to tell a paying customer to "back the fu*k off." That's horrible customer service and it's bad that the customers are put in such a confusing situation.

Do the baggage handlers actually check the claim checks?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they do, or at least they're supposed to. It would be the only way to reliably prevent theft. But then that causes the problem of people rushing for their bags while the baggage handler tried to fend them off and hold them back. This is what causes the confrontation between passengers and baggage handlers. When passengers rush for their bags, handlers will often use verbal aggression to get passengers in line, but the passengers don't understand what's going on and nobody is really there to tell them what to do.

Drivers sometimes tell passengers to wait by the side of the bus with claim tickets until the baggage handler has finished unloading, but passengers always keep rushing for bags and getting into clashes with handlers. Then there's other passengers that are afraid Greyhound will "lose" their bags and go out to check on their bags in the cargo hold during major intermediate stops. Some of these people will try to open the hatches by themselves or poke into hatches already open, since they often don't know which hold their bag is in after giving it to the handler for loading at the origin. Baggage handlers aren't supposed to let people do this because it could cause theft. This leads to more confrontations.

Obviously, confrontations and lost baggage are bad things and confusion about checked baggage is a major problem Greyhound needs to solve. Their ticket envelopes say clearly that passengers must transfer their own bags and the bags won't be transferred for them. But most passengers don't bother to read everything on their tickets especially not the ticket envelopes.

At Bakersfield when I was transferring, passengers rushed the handler and the handler waved his hands in despair yelling basically, "Stay back! Stay back! Go behind the fence! Stay behind the fence! You've got to wait! Wait, wait, wait! Stay back!"

But passengers kept trying to grab their bags as soon as they came out (of the cargo hold) and the handler, who was a big guy, ended up having to bear down on them, yelling all the time, and, thankfully, managed to force them back behind the fence without pushing, shoving, or yelling expletives. But those passengers are now going to go everywhere and complain about Greyhound's rude baggage handler that was yelling in their faces when they tried to get their bags. That's a complaint I've read too many times always.

I think one way to solve this problem would be to have some kind of channel that directs the flow of passengers into the station once they get off the bus, kind of like in airports with the jetways, then having the baggage put in a claim area inside the station. But then that would require lots of space and might simply cause new problems.


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## rickycourtney

Another option is that the baggage handlers could unload the baggage from the drivers side, place them onto a cart and when it's full, wheel our drive it over to a baggage claim area. That's a variant of what Amtrak does at smaller stations that offer checked baggage service (like Merced).


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## Swadian Hardcore

The problems I see with that are money and space. There's probably not enough space around the parked motorcoaches to maneuver carts. There's no platform like Amtrak has. And there's thing in the way, like refueling hoses.

For example, look at Reno: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15599210798/in/photostream/. 

That's a D4505 parked there. There's the Silver State Van Hool I rode off to the side. In between is another bay that can accommodate another motorcoach. There's barely any space in between and then there's the red support and the refueling hoses. If you have passengers getting off from another vehicle, that will cause utter chaos if you then try to run a cart through there.

To keep things in order would require some way to channel the passengers which has its own problems.


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## rickycourtney

Then perhaps the answer is simply better communication and signage at stations.

Have a customer service agent out at the side of the bus to direct the crowds, give instructions and reassure passengers. That would free up the baggage handlers to focus on doing their job and hopefully do it faster.

It would also be easy and cheap to get some of those retractible barriers and just rope off the area between the front door of the bus and the first baggage bay. That would keep passengers out of the area as the baggage handlers did their job.

Also I'm really surprised that Greyhound doesn't have standardized announcements for drivers to give, instructing passengers on what they can expect when they arrive at the station. On Amtrak the announcements are scripted for almost every scenarios. For example, here's the standard arrival announcement:



> Ladies and gentlemen, in 10 minutes we will be arriving in (location, with motorcoach connections to locations).
> 
> Please check around your seat and the overhead luggage rack for your personal possessions. Red Caps will be on the platform to assist you with your luggage. For passengers with checked luggage, it takes approximately (number) minutes for your baggage to be available. You may pick up your checked luggage at (location in the station).
> 
> We ask that you watch your step when leaving the train.
> 
> Welcome to (location), and on behalf of our entire crew, thank you for choosing Amtrak.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm glad that Greyhound put a Customer Service Rep at Las Vegas to help with directing passengers, though it appears that Rep was the terminal manager, not a dedicated rep which would have cost a lot more wage-wise. That;s actually a good idea, I think. At Denver there was no rep and the drivers had to help out extra. The drivers out of Denver are generally willing to go above and beyond since they generally drive long-distance routes that have fixed daily schedules and no turn-and-burns.

Misty spotted #7149, a Blue G, in Saint Louis today, and I had seen it on Tuesday in Reno, today is Friday. So it must have gone to Denver and taken at least a 24-hour rest before departing on its next run. Start opposite of the turn-and-burns.

The Orange Belt driver didn't make any announcements when departing, BTW. Yeah, I guess jerks don't like to talk.

So, I found some Greyhound bus videoes on YouTube. Want to see them?

Here's a "Greyhound" video that actually depicts a Burlington Trailways brand-new Restyled J4500. It's seen plain-white and has Amaya A2-TEN seating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iNzsYEcu_o.

And big LCD flat-screen TVs!

Here's the follow-up which involves a 102DL3 running Chicago-Minneapolis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UZEQDxZN_8. 

Here's a Greyhound bus driver's channel that has many videoes about life on the road driving Greyhound buses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC97v77rrWfHW2wX-3YAxYxQ. 

Here's an interesting video taken in Tucson that shows an unknown model with Patriot PT seating, but it's not a 102DL3 since it has the red handle rather than a window escape bar. Do you think it's a Blue G? A Van Hool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srCT6MNiIDw.

And oh yeah, here's a video of a fight on Greyhound, it's apparently a second-hand J4500 with American Seating 2003: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGOFrwGxoMk.

Would really appreciate help finding out what the last two models are. I've never heard of the G4500 having Patriot PT so I was surprised to see it in that coach, if it's a Blue G. Could be a Blue Van Hool or even a Blue Viaggio, considering the vid was taken in Tucson.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Aw man you know what someone posted on GTE back in 2008?

This:
"There's not much you can do with the G models at this point.

Send them to Afghanistan and let the Taliban holdouts use them for
target practice. God only knows that the ones in service now aren't
roadworthy. For sure the Scotts aren't at all impressed with them.

As soon as FirstGroup can get enough Prevosts in the fleet, the "G"
will be phased out, as will the remaining MC-12's.

Count on it."

Count on it? Well that didn't work. Many of them have now been turned into Blue G's and run alongside Prevosts.


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## rickycourtney

Over on the main "Amtrak Rail Discussion" thread there's word that Greyhound and Amtrak will be shacking up together in San Francisco.

Two slips at the Temporary Transbay Terminal will now be dedicated to Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes and Amtrak will offer ticketing and baggage services inside the station building currently used by Greyhound.

I encourage you to read the thread and comment.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Over on the main "Amtrak Rail Discussion" thread there's word that Greyhound and Amtrak will be shacking up together in San Francisco.
> 
> Two slips at the Temporary Transbay Terminal will now be dedicated to Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach routes and Amtrak will offer ticketing and baggage services inside the station building currently used by Greyhound.
> 
> I encourage you to read the thread and comment.


Thanks for the tip....I put my two and a half cents in......


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw this on Google Street View and thought I had to share: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7843897,-96.8125939,3a,15.7y,255.21h,74.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDKzJiWJJgQMJCT9pDGZVDw!2e0.

That was taken in October 2012, at the height of 102DL3 rebuilds. You can see a 102DL3 rolling out of the shop freshly rebuilt and painted blue, the decals having not been applied yet. Below it you can clearly see a White G4500 being paint blue.

Oh yeah, you guys remember Greyhound's Funkmaster Flex MC-12? That was spotted by Google Maps sitting in Dallas in June 2014. Now off-roster.

Edit: You guys see this? https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0349094,-118.2375425,3a,21.8y,192.63h,83.47t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1svQLrjdK7DGhDDRsxy4EwcQ!2e0. That's an Americanos G4500 with the engine hatch open, and it has a YELLOW engine! That's definitely a CAT, not a Detroit which was standard in the G4500. That's a rare catch, one with the CAT C12 12L 410hp.


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## rickycourtney

The San Francisco temporary transbay terminal is a very unique place.

The station was built using Greyhounds new standard station design (probably to speed up construction) but it's not owned by Greyhound.

Things will likely change quite a bit with Amtrak Thruway moving in. The idea of wanding every passenger probably won't fly. I'm also wondering if there will be separate waiting areas for each carrier? Is there already a separate waiting area for BoltBus or Greyhound Express passengers? I'm also curious where Amtrak's ticketing and baggage areas will go. Are there unused counters or will Greyhound be forced to reduce the amount of space they use?

John do you have any pictures of the inside of the station on your Flickr site? I'd be curious to see it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well I can't take pictures in the SFD station. Sorry. Remember, SFD is held down by 24-hour security guarding. And Greyhound has a photography ban. If you take photos of Greyhound and get caught by a security guard, it's not worth it. I took pictures in Sacramento, got caught by security, and learned never to take pictures in the presence of Greyhound Security again. But I can still take pictures in Sacramento, just only from inside the bus or from the street. 'Cause the driver usually don't care about you taking a shot of a bus since he drives them every day anyway (except for that Orange Belt jerk!).

But since I've been there a lot, I can definitely describe it well which I have already done in the other thread. But yes, everybody that goes into the waiting area MUST be patted down and ticket-checked unless you can sneak past the security guard which is a BAD idea. The ticket counter is not in the waiting area. There's only one ticket counter. There's only one waiting area. Never seen BoltBus boarding or their passengers at SFD though. NO space for a baggage area.

Basically, if Amtrak wants to go into that tiny station building, BAD idea. OTOH, there's plenty of bus space at Transbay, so Amtrak just needs to find another building to squeeze into. It's barely larger than the Seattle station building. This seems like a joke to me.

Right now I'm trying to find out about the Dallas-Los Angeles, Dallas-Denver, and Denver-El Paso routes. Any intel would be appreciated. Also trying to find out where the heck Greyhound's DL3s are in California. I saw some in Los Angeles Maintenance Center on Google Street View, but failed to see any in person after riding #6909 many months ago. Did you go to Greyhound's Centennial Tour when it passed through SEA last weekend? I haven't caught it yet but I might catch it in Los Angeles right before Christmas.


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## rickycourtney

The lease is signed and there's no room on that lot for another building. So Amtrak will be moving into that building, no matter how bad of an idea it is.

So I'm guessing either Greyhound's ticket counter will be split with Amtrak's, or they will have to build a new one.

I highly doubt that Amtrak would allow any security guard to physically pat down passengers, but I think they wouldn't mind checking tickets before allowing passengers to occupy seats in a waiting area (that is what's done at LA Union Station).

I'm sure there is some sort of a baggage facility since there is GPX service from San Francisco. I'm sure part of that room will now be dedicated to storing checked baggage for Amtrak passengers.

The good news for you is that Amtrak has no ban on photography, that means once they move in you'll likely be allowed to take photos inside the station.

The other good news is that Amtrak and Greyhound do have quite a few success stories working out of the same building, St Louis is a good example. Also Vancouver, BC is a really great example of an intermodal station, VIA Rail, Amtrak, Greyhound, BoltBus, Cantrail and Pacific Coach Lines all share the same station and waiting room!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, as long as Greyhound still has a security guard there, then NO photography or else I get busted. Unless Greyhound lays off the security guard. If Amtrak moves in I might be able to take pictures of the station but what I really want to snap are the buses and as long as there's Greyhound Security, it's very difficult for me to sneak photos in, though in Las Vegas I did commit to a daring run when I snapped a photo of #86517 at the gate while the security guard was outside facing the street and no ticket agent was looking.

I'm sick and tired of this. If I go to Los Angeles and want to photoshoot the Greyhound Maintenance Center, I'll need some real advice. I could stroll around and try to take pictures inconspicuously but I might get caught. I could take covert photography but I'm not sure how to hide my camera that well and if caught, it would just make me seem more suspicious. If I ask a friendly driver with spare time to take me on a quick tour, that'll get me in no trouble but I'll have to find that driver. If I try to shoot from the street, my shots will be poor like when I tried at Las Vegas, which resulted in terrible blurs. I only got a few good shots of Greyhound in Las Vegas.


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## rickycourtney

I suggest reading this article. It's a nice briefing on media law.

As I understand it from my Media Law classes (and that nice refresher): if you can see it while standing on public property (like a sidewalk of a public street), you can legally photograph it.

Now here's my big warning... I wouldn't suggest angering a security guard (even on public property), if you need travel later that day.

Also I echo the author of that article in saying I am not a lawyer and this should not be taken as legal advice.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well damn it, I shouldn't have delete my photographs when the Orange Belt driver told me to then! But if I hadn't, she probably would have kicked me off the bus.

Anyway, I caught this White D4505 at Fresno: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15822718676/.

Have you seen them before? These run a really awkward route, Fresno-Mexicali overnight daily. I have no idea what that's about, I'm guessing it's targeting Mexicans that work in Fresno?

So, at this point, I'm not sure what to do about photography at Los Angeles. There's not going to be any security at the Los Angeles Maintenance Center. There's going to be a lot of mechanics there, maybe a few drivers too. No security guards. I photographed at Denver Maintenance Center with minimal difficulty but now what I am going to do in Los Angeles?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, remember how I sent complaints to Orange Belt and Silver State a week ago. It's Saturday today and I've still gotten no response. I've pretty much given up on my hopes of getting a response. It was bad enough that Orange Belt and Silver State were poorly-run operations, it's even worse that they have all those problems yet refuse to respond, explain, apologize, or anything.

This sucks, this really, really, sucks. I guess Orange Belt and Silver State will go on being horrible operations. Sooner or later, they'll be the ones that go bankrupt or get shut down by the FMCSA for deferring maintenance. If there was a silver of chance that I would ride one of them again, considering how they serve niche routes, now that's gone; I'm never riding them again, _and_ I'm going to tell everybody else not to ride them.

I know a lot of people complain about Greyhound on Facebook, and they get a response. I got nothing from Orange Belt and Silver State and both of them are worse than Greyhound.

Ricky, since you're a journalist, may I ask you if Channing Street, Lawrence Street, Decatur Street, and East 7th Place in Los Angeles are public streets? Those streets run through the Greyhound Maintenance Center and if they are public streets I should have no trouble with photography.


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## tp49

Google Street View is your friend. Yes, they are public streets.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Then that's very good, I'll be able to do it. Now I just hope one of them mechanics won't come over to me and tell me to stop. In that case I'll be forced to retort that I'm on a public street.

So, everywhere that there is Google Street View is a public street?

Now, I need to be sure those are public streets and I'll have to be ready to respond if they try to stop me.

Oh yeah, here's the Torino G's brochure from 4one; it says the new seat belt design is great for freeing passengers of shoulder discomfort: http://www.4one.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Torino-G.pdf.


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## railiner

I still don't get what this paranoia about photo's is all about....

Unless, of course, you are embarassed about your appearance, or your actions....


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## Swadian Hardcore

The problem is, that photography ban is currently official Greyhound policy. So now all Greyhound employees need to do as a motive for stopping photography is, "You can't take pictures of Greyhound buses."

Sucks, I know, but what the heck am I going to do?

At this point I might just have to say, "I'm taking pictures from a public street."

But then if I have to ride Greyhound it would be dumb to challenge them like this. Even if the mechanics from the Maintenance Center probably aren't going to see me in the station, there's drivers that may see me taking pictures and try to stop me.

I'll use Street View to gain intel on photography angles and see what I can do from where. I tried it with Denver but I'll do it better this time so that I get the best shots and get quality over quantity.

Edit: Another photo album found on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/asterisktom/sets/72157646051951800.


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## rickycourtney

So I take it you're planning a trip to the city of Angels soon?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, I'll say I've been thinking about it. I want to catch Greyhound's Anniversary Tour. I can't exactly catch it anywhere but Los Angeles unless I want to hop over to San Francisco. I've been wanting to go to Los Angeles for a while, so I was thinking about it.

How's Los Angeles over December? A good idea to go, or a bad idea? Also, how's US 101 down from San Francisco at that time of year?

Here's a recent photo of an Americanos White D4505 interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15857010001/sizes/l.

Those are the same seats as the White G4500 and look to be stained. Looks like they took out the curtains too. I noticed the bus appears to be mostly empty. Also, I believe the parcel rack lids might have some disadvantages because GLC is rumored to have taken the lids off in their rebuilt VIPs.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Well, I'll say I've been thinking about it. I want to catch Greyhound's Anniversary Tour. I can't exactly catch it anywhere but Los Angeles unless I want to hop over to San Francisco. I've been wanting to go to Los Angeles for a while, so I was thinking about it.
> 
> How's Los Angeles over December? A good idea to go, or a bad idea? Also, how's US 101 down from San Francisco at that time of year?


I think you should go to see the Anniversary Tour! No clue if you'll learn anything in the museum, but it would be neat to see the old buses.

Los Angeles in December... I'll put it this way... there's a reason why people vacation in LA. It's usually in the mid-60's and there's usually not a lot of rain (about 5 days). In December the 101 is a crapshoot, it can be really overcast and hard to see, or clear as can be. But no matter the weather, it's a longer and more scenic trip than the 99 or the 5, if that's what you're looking for

I will point out that the Anniversary Tour stop in the Bay is at Six Flags in Vallejo and in LA it's at Six Flags in my hometown of Santa Clarita. Neither are particularly easy to reach by public transportation.

But if you enjoy taking public transit, the trip up to Santa Clarita from the Los Angeles Greyhound station does include a ride on the subway, a City of Santa Clarita D4000 or D4500 and a City of Santa Clarita transit bus.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, I believe the parcel rack lids might have some disadvantages because GLC is rumored to have taken the lids off in their rebuilt VIPs.


Well the enclosed bins do require a bit more maintenance. Each door has a small gas spring that pushes it open when you press the button. As you may have encountered with your car... those gas springs eventually wear out. It's only a $15 replacement... but it requires a little time in the shop and keeping those parts on hand.

Personally, I think it's worth it. Enclosed overhead bins are a cleaner look ascetically and I would think that it's safer in the event of a crash or a abrupt maneuver (like the driver attempting to avoid something on the highway).


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just checked the dates again and it's impossible for me to go to the one in Vallejo so if I'm going to catch the Tour, I'll have to catch it in Santa Clarita. I'd be happy to visit Los Angeles, haven't been there in, oh, a dozen years?

Right now it's just a rumor that GLC took the lids off the parcel racks. All the "evidence" I could find was this: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1137.jpg.

That's #1137 at the Toronto terminal, it's a Western bus so it must have come all the way from Calgary. The racks appear to be open now, but it's parked at the terminal and perhaps they're just open until departure. Also, that vehicle has a wheelchair lift and that "open parcel racks" may just be the gap for the wheelchair position.

Here's what #1156 looked like pre-rebuild: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1156_back.jpg.

I'm seriously interested in those LED icons at the front, I think one of them is "Lavatory"? That would be a great feature actually, I've walked back to the lavatory sometimes only to find it locked and occupied.

And here's a better shot of that Americanos D4505 interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15679285078.

You'll easily notice the plentiful amounts of legroom.

Edit: Oh, in terms of enclosed parcel racks, I believe the E/G/J don't have the air springs, they seem to have mechanical springs but they open inward which dilutes capacity: http://www.shopbuses.com/listings/2009-mci-j4500-ch534386.


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## rickycourtney

Any updates on eTicketing for Greyhound?

I thought it was supposed to be up and running by now...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know much but last time I rode Greyhound over Veteran's Day, I used Will Call and it was the same old Will Call. Greyhound does have a new mobile app now: https://www.facebook.com/GreyhoundBus/photos/pb.117755058267776.-2207520000.1416963713./779478752095400/?type=3&theater. 

News Release: https://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=582&year=2014. 

So, regarding Santa Clarita, do I just ride Red Line to North Hollywood then 757 to Santa Clarita then the local bus? I was also wondering if the Norwalk/Downey area is safe, The hotels there seem to have great value for money and it's also served by LACMTA Route 62, which goes directly to the Greyhound terminal and Downtown LA.

What equipment is usually on the 757? I'll be riding on Sunday so probably a 102D3 or D4000 instead of the D4500, right? I like the Shorty 102D3/D4000.

I was also looking at this picture: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1137.jpg, and saw that the VIP DL3 has two extra yellow lights in the nose. How come this isn't in the US ones? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound6463_2.jpg

Thanks.


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## railiner

IIRC, those extra front flasher's have been on all original GLC coaches for a long time,,,,may be an option to meet some Canadian or provincial requirement......?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't know much but last time I rode Greyhound over Veteran's Day, I used Will Call and it was the same old Will Call. Greyhound does have a new mobile app now: https://www.facebook.com/GreyhoundBus/photos/pb.117755058267776.-2207520000.1416963713./779478752095400/?type=3&theater.
> 
> News Release: https://www.greyhound.com/en/newsroom/viewrelease.aspx?id=582&year=2014.


I posted about that too. I like the app, but I find it strange that it launched without eTicketing. While you can still book on the mobile app and opt to print out the ticket before travel, Will Call is the top billed option. It's still a clunky system.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> So, regarding Santa Clarita, do I just ride Red Line to North Hollywood then 757 to Santa Clarita then the local bus? I was also wondering if the Norwalk/Downey area is safe, The hotels there seem to have great value for money and it's also served by LACMTA Route 62, which goes directly to the Greyhound terminal and Downtown LA.
> 
> What equipment is usually on the 757? I'll be riding on Sunday so probably a 102D3 or D4000 instead of the D4500, right? I like the Shorty 102D3/D4000.


You'll take the Red Line up to North Hollywood, take the 757 to the McBean Regional Transit Center (the only stop on weekends) and catch a 3 or 7 to Magic Mountain. The big problem is that the 757 & 3/7 run infrequently, so you'll have to time that transfer correctly.

Personally, I wouldn't stay in the Norwalk/Downey area, especially in a cheap hotel. It's not close to anything and the area can be a bit shady. I would look for something that's along the Red Line corridor. Metro Plaza Hotel near Union Station comes recommended by a lot of AU members, but if that's too expensive I also know there's a Motel 6 in Hollywood near the subway. Staying at either location will allow you to do a lot more sightseeing.

The City of Santa Clarita Transit fleet is about half D4000 and half D4500. I'm not sure what the 757 is normally assigned... but it's the only route using the MCI's on weekends, so I'm sure it's crap shoot. You get whatever's not in the shop or whatever the driver wanted to take out. Also, transit buses are occasionally placed on the route.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was also looking at this picture: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound1137.jpg, and saw that the VIP DL3 has two extra yellow lights in the nose. How come this isn't in the US ones? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound6463_2.jpg


From the pictures I've seen most of the "native" Greyhound Canada DL3 units have those extra lights, they seem to be an extra set of turn lights.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I looked at the hotels again. My options for areas are: Norwalk, Torrance, Long Beach, Burbank, Inglewood, and LAX Airport. Which one of those would you think is best? Probably not Inglewood, hehe, even though that hotel is rated 4.75/5.00.

Don't understand why Greyhound Canada needs extra turn signals and I don't see how it could be government regulation because the units transferred from the US seem fine without the extra lights. I do believe all the GLC-orginal DL3s have those lights. They have a lot of second-hand units from Hotard, Cha-Co, Grey Goose, Voyageur, Gray Line of Victoria, etc. GLC didn't have them on the 102A3, 96A3, or 102C3, but started in 1995 with the 102D3. Perhaps it's required for northern operations like Whitehorse?

Poked around Flickr and found the 757 to usually be a D4000 or 102D3.

Oh, BTW, I checked the G4500 specs and it has got a wheelbase akin to the X3-45. I was surprised but they sure ride a lot better than Van Hools. I looked at some pics and saw that its wheelbase really is that long: http://cptdb.ca/wiki/images/7/72/Greyhound_Canada_1230-a.jpg.

To my chagrin, neither GLI nor GLC has retired all their remaining White G's and that picture of #1230 shows it with the updated nose dog decal.


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## rickycourtney

I remember you complaining about your hotel in Merced... so I'm just trying to steer you towards a better choice.

Honestly I urge you to reconsider my suggestion to stay in the Union Station or Hollywood area, but if that's not doable, I would go for Burbank. It's one of the safest areas in the LA area, but it's not as easy to access by transit.
I don't know where the Long Beach hotel is and the area is a bit of a crapshoot... Downtown is nice and easily accessed by the Blue Line, but elsewhere Long Beach still has rough parts (it's the home of Snoop Dogg!)

The LAX Airport is generally safe, but you can expect near constant loud airplane noise if your hotel isn't insulated well enough. Plan on spending several hours going up to Santa Clarita. Also be careful, a lot of hotels in Inglewood (east of the 405) try to sell themselves as LAX Airport.
Which brings me to my final point... DON'T stay in Inglewood. Period. It's not safe.

Remember, you get what you pay for. When you consider the safety concerns and accessibility by transit, it might be worth it to you to spend a couple extra bucks to stay in a better area.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm afraid to say it is not possible for me to stay in Downtown LA or Hollywood. I looked everywhere and only found those aforementioned options. I guess I will stay in Burbank. Christmas hotels are very expensive in a warm place like Los Angeles. Burbank seems to have good enough transit and is close to North Hollywood.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a fallback plan, so out of those above options, what would be your second choice after Burbank? I'm using Hotwire.

On a different note, I went to Greyhound today expecting to see the Thanksgiving rush. To my surprise, it was simply another chill day at the terminal with 5 motorcoaches there, D4505 #86332 (to SFD 8311), #86357, 102DL3 #6353, 6572, and #6586. Then #86368 pulled in from SFD as 8306.

I was indeed surprised to see a trio of DL3s there, #6353 was in the Ready Lot (staying overnight before going to SLC?), #6572 has a DPF and is based from LAD, it has a "MOTOR COACH INDUSTRIES" plaque on the air intake, and #6586 had a bit of damage around the back, the grille had some cracks and the paint too. I think #6586 is tonight's bus to Denver, 1314, it was at Gate 2 which is now the "Denver/Salt Lake City" gate.

Edit: Oh yeah, the drivers saw my taking pics but didn't care.


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## rickycourtney

I'd check on Kayak.com too. They typically have low prices and they don't keep the hotel a secret.

If you need a backup I'd go with Long Beach and hope for the best.

Were you standing on a public sidewalk when taking those pictures?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I took some pictures from the sidewalk but more when "roaming". That means I just kind of walk around the buses snapping pictures. Well, if the drive doesn't have a problem with that, and there were _two_ drivers there to boot, I'm sure I would have no trouble in Los Angeles, except the Ready Lot in Los Angeles is huge and behind a gate so I'll have to prepare my angles carefully and shoot through the gaps in the fence.

I skimmed through Kayak after your post. I haven't seen much good deals yet but I'll have to see more.


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## railiner

I have found that the hotels in the LAX (The airport, not Amtrak), area to be among the lowest priced around any big city airport. Not very convenient to downtown, but if you're flying, a real bargain....


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## Swadian Hardcore

How many days would you guys recommend I stay in Los Angeles?

I'll have to stay in the Bay Area for an overnight layover if I want to ride the 101. Trying to juggle that with going on I-5 or US 99. Don't want to do either of those since I just rode US 99 on the way to Las Vegas and I-5 is not much different.

It was nice seeing some DL3s in Reno for a change. Haven't seen them for 4 months. It was always D4505s with a few Blue G4500s. I definitely like the plaque on the rear of #6572. MCI seems to have put them on at random. Very few DL3s have DPFs which means the same few are the only ones based from Los Angeles and allowed in California. I think they are #6309, #6334, #6381, #6487, #6572, #6660, and #6909, possibly #6394, #6606, and #6654 as well, I think those are DPF-equipped but not based from Los Angeles.

Any idea why Greyhound Reno doesn't have extra traffic for Thanksgiving?


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## mightyjoe1201

Any one know where I can find out info on greyhound's anniversary tour? I'd like to find out if it's gonna b out east here at all it if they are gonna snub us out here.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Right here Joe: https://www.greyhound.com/en/CentennialTour.aspx. 

You missed it when it was in Philadelphia back in June. The only cities left are Phoenix, Las Vegas, Portland (OR), San Francisco, and Los Angeles. If I go to Los Angeles I'll be catching the last one. I don't get to catch the Scenicruiser and the older stuff but I do get to catch the Super Coach, ACF Brill, MC-7, and MC-9.

MCI recently did a feature article on Motor Transportation Co. of Hazelton: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2014-11-21-motor-transportation.htm.

They only operate 40-footers and have been very successful. Now I'm wondering whether Greyhound should keep its 102D3s instead of selling them, since a lot of routes, including Reno-San Francisco, don't need a 45-footer; in the case of RNO-SFD, a 40-footer would be fine even for Thanksgiving.

Say, what prevents drivers from driving deliberately slow to get extra pay? I recently did a "honesty test" and found that many people would work deliberately slow to get extra pay or do less work for the same pay (namely intentionally hitting the duty time limit or running out of hours). I did poorly on the test and got a 37/100 but I don't think most people would have gotten a good score on that one.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. Figures, that was before I found out they were doing one. Lol.


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## mightyjoe1201

Cool article about motor trans. Thanks for sharing the link. I'll have to show it to my boss on Monday. I thought the bus my boss sold to them was a dl3 but I was wrong, I only saw the bus from a distance not up close. Guess it was a d3. Lol.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How many days would you guys recommend I stay in Los Angeles?


Depends. What do you want to do/see while you are in Los Angeles?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I definitely like the plaque on the rear of #6572. MCI seems to have put them on at random. Very few DL3s have DPFs which means the same few are the only ones based from Los Angeles and allowed in California. I think they are #6309, #6334, #6381, #6487, #6572, #6660, and #6909, possibly #6394, #6606, and #6654 as well, I think those are DPF-equipped but not based from Los Angeles.


When you say "plaque" do you mean that the grille looked like this? I think the addition of the MCI logo happened at around the same time as the 102DL3 was renamed the D4500. It's a possibility that 6572 was damaged and the grille you saw is a replacement.

No clue on which 102DL3's are DPF equipped... but where are you getting that "very few" are DPF equipped and that list of unit numbers? Adding a DPF is a relatively cheap modification, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot more than that have them.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Any idea why Greyhound Reno doesn't have extra traffic for Thanksgiving?


I checked in with Greyhound in Seattle and they said that it was a relatively quiet Thanksgiving for them too. Amtrak on the other hand sold out every Cascades train and had to add an extra run.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yep, that's the right plaque. I'll attach a picture.

I got that list of unit numbers from all DL3s that have been spotted in California after the most recent CA Emissions updates. Very few DL3s have been spotted, but very many D4505s have been spotted, which suggests that most of Greyhound's DL3s don't have DPFs. Is a DPF even enough to meet the newest CA Emissions Standards? I know they said EPA 2010 by January 1st, 2013.

I do believe that all the G4500s now have DPFs since I saw many in the matter of minutes in Sacramento a few weeks ago. I also saw many D4505s, but I did not see a single 102DL3 or X3-45. The only Greyhound DL3s I've ever seen in California are #6334 and #6909. I almost never see DL3s in Reno either, so I really don't think most of them have DPFs, though if I were proven wrong, that would simply mean more rides on my favorite bus. :giggle: 

What do you think is going on with Greyhound this Thanksgiving? Amtrak doesn't have a major presence in Reno. I would have loved to ride #6572; it's probably the best Greyhound out here. I was told a factory-installed lift always beats a retrofit.

I believe all the Americanos DL3s have DPFs, they've been seen in Los Angeles a lot. In fact, on Flickr I saw some really weird stuff: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15275242154. That's inside #60649 ex-Americanos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15894787165. It's got weird TVs, weird seating I've never seen before, and a retrofitted wheelchair lift: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15709250058. 

The reason those TVs are "weird" is because most DL3s have TVs offset to the sides (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg), this one has them hanging off the parcel racks.

I need to think about Los Angeles for a second.


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## rickycourtney

My fiancee booked us a trip up to Leavenworth for the annual Christmas celebration.

Beautiful trip up to the city. The bus was an older H3-45 owned and operated by Puget Sound Coach Lines. Rode great and despite showing signs of age the seats were very comfortable.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Nice! Was it a tour?

I looked on Puget Sound Coach Lines' website: http://pscoachlines.com/deluxecoach.htm. 

Was it the H3-41 or the H3-45? Seems like they have late 1990s and early 2000s Prevosts, about the same age as Greyhound's DL3s. The seats are FAINSAs, same as the G4500s. How would those seats compare to the others you have ridden?

Speaking of the G4500, I recently found out that it has a very long wheelbase, 336"; the spec sheet: http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/CoachSpecG4500?openform. 

The X3-45 has 334.5". I did not expect the G4500 to have a longer wheelbase than the X3-45, though I remember National Bus Trader said the G4500 was 331". Maybe they changed the wheelbase sometime during production but still, even 331" is a hugely long wheelbase.


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## rickycourtney

It was with a tour company, but not really a tour. They took us on a trip up to the town and let us explore on our own. The town puts on a big festival every year and there is a lot to do.

Like I said it was a H3-45. The seats were showing their age (some had decorative panels missing, fabric was fading) but they were pretty comfortable. More comfortable than anything from American Seating, but not as comfortable as the A-2TEN.


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## rickycourtney

One thought I had... motorcoach builders could make bigger overhead bins by simply reducing headroom over passenger seats.

You been on a 737 with the Boeing Sky interior? When they are down the bottom of those bins are almost down to the top of my shoulder. I think motorcoach bins could easily come down another 3 to 6 inches.

The other benefit is that you bring the passenger service unit (reading lights, AC vent and speaker) closer to the passenger. Even I find them a bit of a reach on most buses.

That being said, I would only increase the size of luggage bins on intercity motorcoaches, you don't want to reduce the view on buses used for tours.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm been on 777s with the Signature Interior. Don't know about the 737, probably have. I imagine one problem with bringing the parcel racks down more would be the TVs on some buses. Another could be meeting the edge of the racks with the windows. The G4500 bins do go down a lot and even curve down to obstruct the top of the windows, as you can see here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14846441945/sizes/l.

I think the G4500 bins could not come down more or else they would make passengers claustrophobic. I'm a short guy and I've hit my head on those bins before. I think the G4500 is as big as they get. With the long wheelbase and high luggage capacity, it probably would have been a great bus if it wasn't messed up by a combination Greyhound, MCI, and Dina.

How are those FAINSAs compared to the old Amayas or Nationals?


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## rickycourtney

Those bins on the G seem a good height, but rather narrow. They should extend closer to the window and possibly the aisle. I mean that is if luggage space is more important than getting the biggest possible windows (which to Greyhound or BoltBus passengers, luggage space is more important.)

The TV's would be problematic, but that problem can be solved by making sure they're placed between seats. Or just remove TV's if the operator opts for the bigger bins.

Everyone hits their head when they stand up on a 737, the important part is the aisle height.

They are a little more comfortable than I remember the national's being. I still think the A-2TEN is the most comfortable seat on the market.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think the bins on the G4500 don't go more inboard to the aisle because the designers didn't want the bins to block out the roof escape hatches. I think they didn't want to go more outboard to the windows, either, because they didn't want the black speakers to push up right against the windows which would make them harder to maintain, though of course, the speakers could have gone to the bottom of the racks like on the D's.

But if they went more outboard, the tops of the windows would be useless and they would have to shrink the windows. I believe bigger windows are cheaper than more fiberglass (the whole G is fiberglass) so that may be why they left the windows bigger, even though bigger windows might not be so important to Greyhound. That being said, the G was also marketed for charters and tours which might require the bigger windows. I personally prefer them that big for those scenic Greyhound routes, they really offer a great view out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15580418562/sizes/l.

If the G4500 hadn't gone badly, it probably would have been a huge hit. Long wheelbase, decent turning circle, lots of passenger and luggage capacity, lightweight, low fuel consumption, huge full-width fuel tank (228 gallons) that can be refueled from either side (most buses can only be refueled from the right), etc. Due to that long wheelbase, it has cargo holds as big as the H3-45 and much larger parcel racks. DL3's only got a 183-gal tank, D4505 has a 164-gal.


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## Swadian Hardcore

New Greyhound ad on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QyMlTZjZI. 

Looks like they're going heavy on the D4505 ad campaigns, especially in theaters. Perhaps Greyhound wants to make the D4505 its flagship. Too bad it has horrid seats and drivers even prefer the Blue G4500.

Check out this picture on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152363085371106&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&theater.

That appears to be a photo turned into a drawing then with extras hand-added like rivets on the window rims (which are not on the actual DL3). DL3 #6106 is a 1999 transferred to Canada. Or it could be hand-drawn but I doubt it. To hand-draw a DL3 to that detail, you'll need to be a serious DL3 fan.

That reminds me, I have some fan badges and I don't think I'm shared them before.

DL3-G4500 badges (2).pdf


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## rickycourtney

It's interesting, the last few years the X3-45 has been the face of Greyhound in advertising over the last few years, but it's shifted to the D4505 in the last few months as they start to shoot TV ads again.

But I think that has less to do with corporate deciding what bus will be the "flagship" of Greyhound and more to do with the fact that these ads are shot in Hollywood and it's a lot easier to get a shiny new D4505 in Los Angeles than a shiny new X3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's some rumors on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheMightyGreyhound/posts/909957025684259?comment_id=911916488821646&offset=0&total_comments=12.

Rumors are that they're going away from Painful Premiers but may also be going away from MCI and Prevost. I would LOL at seeing a TD925 in Greyhound's livery. But yeah, Mike thinks the Van Hools are German, they're actually Belgian. Never heard of Cair. Would they buy them? Probably not, Greyhound already tested the C2045 many times and it was rejected every single time.

Looks like the drivers want the new J's. I think the plain white one at the show in Washington DC might have been a demo for Greyhound and then it got rejected or something. Or maybe it wasn't a demo at all and MCI just decided to send it there to join the party and maybe invited some officials and drivers to check it out in an attempt to get Greyhound to buy it (and to get positive publicity for MCI themselves).

Obviously, BoltBus was created to smack Megabus, but I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was pretty much to circumnavigate Greyhound's G4500 Disaster up there until they could be rebuilt. 'Cause not long ago, _every_ Greyhound out of Seattle was a G4500 and not long ago, every G4500 was white and many were exemplary Dirty Dogs.


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## rickycourtney

That Facebook link is dead.

I would imagine that Greyhound would test all bus types, regardless of manufacturer. But as we both know, unless there has been major quality improvements from Van Hool, I doubt Greyhound would purchase them in large numbers.

Also while I'm sure Greyhound takes what drivers "like" under consideration... it's far from the most important thing for the company to consider when purchasing coaches.

Greyhound seems to be dormant at this point. Clearly they are comfortable with the amount of coaches they have and they might be waiting for something better to come on the market.

Megabus launched in Chicago in March 2006, BoltBus launched in New York in March 2008 and Megabus expanded to New York in May 2008. That means the first time the two companies were in direct competition was May 2008. BoltBus was really at first competing with the Chinatown bus carriers (who siphoned off a lot of Greyhound's business).

I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was all about competing in a market where ground travel is very competitive to air travel and where no low cost carriers were operating. BoltBus has been such a HUGE success here in the PNW, no other company (including Megabus) has tried to break into the market.


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## rickycourtney

But I do think there is an untapped market here in the PNW for a service like Vonlane.

Business class on Amtrak's Cascades is frequently sold out and Alaska's air shuttle is geared towards business travelers, so there is clearly an market for people looking for an upscale experience.

A bus can do the trip 15-30 minutes faster than the train (at least for the moment) and the only perk Amtrak gives is a bigger seat and a $3 coupon for the cafe.

Alaska's air shuttle used to have free Starbucks and newspapers in the terminal (it felt a little like a first class lounge) and a free alcoholic drink in air. Everything but the free drink has been eliminated. So a luxury bus can offer a much better experience at a lower cost.


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## Swadian Hardcore

There's probably room for it in the PNW. I don't really know about luxury buses and I think luxury seating might have trouble meeting new DOT safety regs, which may explain Vonlane's fast expansion.

I think Greyhound ought to introduce "real" Express and Limited service to the whole I-5 corridor. Right now most of the through services are already Limiteds even though they still make local stops. I still think Greyhound's biggest problem right now is the Painful Premier. BoltBus has only new equipment, which sounds great, but with horrible seating, they're limited their own potential. I don't know if it's connections, kickbacks, good salesmanship, or what, but American Seating shouldn't be doing nearly as well as it is doing right now, with its terrible products.

Commuter coaches mostly have American Seating, too.

Greyhound needs to deal with the Painful Premiers and deal with them NOW. Otherwise, nobody will want to ride the new buses. What I can do? Chant "No More D4505! No More D4505! No More D4505!"? At this point, I see a D4505 and I repulse it because of its terrible Painful Premier seating.


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## rickycourtney

Someone will develop a luxury seat that complies with the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, I have no doubt about that. That's also not the reason for Vonlane's expansion. The expansion is being done with existing buses.

I have no idea why Greyhound stuck with such an awful seat for so long... but they continued to special order them right into the last order earlier this year. Despite the seats, BoltBus has been a huge success here in the PNW and they get accolades for having "leather seats."

Define what you mean by "express", "limited", and "local" service. As far as I'm concerned, Greyhound only find local service here in the PNW and only BoltBus has express service.

American seating has the made in America advantage for Commuter seating and like it or not it's here to stay likely for the lives of those coaches. I highly doubt Greyhound will pay to replace the seats (the G4500's are still using their original seats) except for the BoltBus units and it's much more likely that BoltBus will just get new buses and hand the old ones down to Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

BoltBus hasn't handed anything down to Greyhound and I don't think they will because Greyhound has been getting all the new Volvo-powered X3-45s. BoltBus only has old Detroit-powered X3-45s which have the Detroit Diesel Series 60 14L 425hp EGR, the same as the older D4505s.

Greyhound drivers say they think Greyhound will continue to order from MCI unless Prevost or someone else can make a vastly superior product, which the X3-45 isn't.

I finally found a good interior pic of the Blue G4500, but it's #7027 with Patriot PT seats  : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=689228551090442&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418271256.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xpa1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1383501_689228551090442_450444846_n.jpg%3Foh%3D619105ddcdfb44ad2cc8758b149c23c6%26oe%3D5542C847&size=270%2C360. 

Here's Blue G4500 #7094 in San Diego headed up to Los Angeles: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=738177869528843&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418269688.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F1604522_738177869528843_54596207_n.jpg%3Foh%3D90da9f5b8761bd1c2b0e9d6b6efbeeaa%26oe%3D54FFAE36&size=960%2C720. 

Another Blue G4500, #7072, in Los Angeles: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=829156297097666&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418269459.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10512092_822353144444648_2033847801_o.jpg%3Foh%3Daa70322474c9a53cbd9d6395b510a10a%26oe%3D548AE661%26__gda__%3D1418397233_9352b7d48935090e8a1437046e7642cf&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10510117_822353144444648_2033847801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0e02dff7b0e270744bb16020a7cec5d1%26oe%3D548AE44C%26__gda__%3D1418410460_c61c34a0f96ca09b8c97e1d914228589&size=1632%2C1224. 

I guess that means the Blue G is used for intra-California service now? It's still D4505 Land but I'm hoping I can get a Blue G for the long ride on 101 (Sked 6725) and the overnight return on I-5 (Sked 1446).


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## rickycourtney

That's not exactly true, the BoltBus units assigned to the California/Nevada routes are 2013 D4505's with Cummins ISX12 engines.

BoltBus hasn't handed down any units yet, because they don't have any really old units yet. The oldest X3-45's assigned to BoltBus are from 2008, the same age as the X3-45's that were just sent to GLC. They might be getting ready to swap those out, but I have no inside knowledge of that.

On the flip side to your statement, I think Greyhound will also continue to order from Prevost unless MCI or someone else can make a vastly superior product, which the D4505 isn't. They're buying from both to speed delivery times (two production lines) and get lower prices (by pitting Prevost and MCI against each other).

None of those Facebook links work (you need to copy the image URL, not the page URL), but if the blue G4500's are running in California they've been retrofitted with DPF's.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, them Blue G's must have been retrofitted with DPFs. I know the D4505 is a poor vehicle, but the X3-45 is not really a great vehicle either, so Greyhound will have to order both until one of them starts shining over the other.

I'm extremely inexperienced with Facebook and I don't know how to use it. Here's #7072 again, is it working now? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=829156297097666&set=pb.100000099118467.-2207520000.1418281033.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft35.0-12%2F10512092_822353144444648_2033847801_o.jpg%3Foh%3Daa70322474c9a53cbd9d6395b510a10a%26oe%3D548AE661%26__gda__%3D1418397233_9352b7d48935090e8a1437046e7642cf&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xpf1%2Fv%2Ft34.0-12%2F10510117_822353144444648_2033847801_n.jpg%3Foh%3D0e02dff7b0e270744bb16020a7cec5d1%26oe%3D548AE44C%26__gda__%3D1418453660_954fc0b764f3ea8b9179474303e72604&size=1632%2C1224.

I previewed it and it's working.

Blue G's seem to be dominating the Los Angeles-Portland/Seattle/Vancouver routes and also seem to doing the Los Angeles-New York City and Los Angeles-Dallas routes. I'm hoping they're put more Blue G's in Los Angeles because I won't be dealing with Painful Premier after Painful Premier if I can ride FAINSAs to break it up. Drivers like them too. If they're not going to return DL3s to the West, then at least have some Blue G's, as they are vastly more comfortable than the D4505.

Edit: Oh yeah, how about this blue Van Hool? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=708592382528584&set=pb.100001334877573.-2207520000.1418281673.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F10494650_708592382528584_4750159462972769022_n.jpg%3Foh%3Db6a92af1e3808affd9009cff13892f37%26oe%3D5506327D%26__gda__%3D1426089932_3ff2ad9aafe79f7d48b6132d39e64881&size=589%2C480.


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## Caesar La Rock

Just an FYI, the Van Hool CX45 are available, along with the TX40/45. The C2045 and T2140/2145 may have been discontinued, but I'm not sure. If Greyhound ever does go for Van Hool, the CX45 (and the TX45) comes with the DD13 as a standard option versus an optional engine. The ISX is optional on those buses though.


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## rickycourtney

So on Facebook open a picture up to it's full size (it should open it it's own window), right click on it and select "copy image URL" or "copy image address". That will get a link directly to the image and not the page that contains the image (which may or may not be publicly accessible).

That second image is a Valley Transit bus, that to my knowledge, has used Van Hool for years. CJ is right, Van Hool uses the DD13 as the standard engine on the CX & TX, with the Cummins ISX available as an option.

Let's be totally honest here... as railiner has said before, Greyhound is not even a shadow of the company they used to be.

Transit operators are really the most important single customers for the motorcoach builders. In the last few years Houston has purchased 240 motorcoaches from MCI and MTA New York has purchased 390 motorcoaches from Prevost. Greyhound's 2013 "historic order" was for 220 motorcoaches (90 X3-45 & 130 D4505, of which 30 were cancelled). In fact, New Jersey Transit is looking to buy over 1,300 buses in a single contract. That's more than Greyhound's entire fleet!

In the long-run I think that MCI will probably merge the D4505 and the D4500CT into a single bus (the X3-45 and X3-45 Commuter Coach are mostly the same). Really, Greyhound can use the same bus as the transit operators, albeit with a lavatory added. They want the same thing in their buses: rugged reliability.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A little mistake, Greyhound has a little more than 1,300 if you count all the units in storage. But yeah, transit operators are the big customers for MCI and Prevost right now. However, they don't need the same durability as Greyhound. You don't see 16-year-old transit buses very often, nor do them see them running Berthoud, Kicking Horse, or Deadman Pass. Nor do you see active transit buses with 1,500,000 mileage. In fact, more focus on transit operations could allow MCI and Prevost to cut corners, as was likely done with the D4500/D4000 when MCI reduced rivets.

This is a bad thing for the intercity buses industry and the private sector, especially RFPs that are competitive based on the lowest bidder. I prefer Greyhound's "shopping around" over RFPs where requirements are put on paper and the order is given to the lowest bidder. If Van Hools were Buy America-complaint, they would be popular for commuter runs, being so cheap and having good capabilities on paper, enough to meet the FTA's 500,000-mile requirement.

Yeah, I'm a private sector guy.

I'm giving up on copying images. Too hard.


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## rickycourtney

The point is Greyhound would never purchase 1,300 buses in a single contract.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Don't say never. Maybe 50 years from now, they'll be ordering 2,000 units in a single contract. Right after World War II, Greyhound ordered over 3,000 Silversides in a single contract.

Anyway, MCI added Bendix adaptive cruise control to the J4500 and presumably the D4505 as well for the 2015 model year. This is going to even the playing field a bit more between MCI and Prevost, though the Crappy Cummins still remains a potential issue. From National Bus Trader: http://www.busmag.com/mci-reliability-rally-showcase-upcoming-technologies-mci-j4500-d-series-coaches-setra-s-417-second-door-parts-training/.

When riding Greyhound's newest 86500-series D4505s, powered by the Cummins and with the fire suppressor to put out the increasingly-common engine fires, it's possible to hear a loud beeping every time the bus goes around a tight curve. Is this the radar? Did Greyhound manage to get radar on the D4505s to lower insurance costs?


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## jebr

rickycourtney said:


> I believe Bolt's introduction in the PNW was all about competing in a market where ground travel is very competitive to air travel and where no low cost carriers were operating. BoltBus has been such a HUGE success here in the PNW, no other company (including Megabus) has tried to break into the market.


I think it's part being a success, but also partially that no other operator has a base there, and it's hard to justify a base for the buses for just one market. Megabus really likes having hubs, and I can't think of any of their routes that don't have at least one end at a major hub of theirs. I don't know if there's any other major intercity bus companies there.

BoltBus can use Greyhound facilities for servicing the bus, so there's not a ton of starting capital to bring in BoltBus (just the cost of the buses.) Heck, they can even not worry quite as much about spare buses, as in a pinch BoltBus could pull a Greyhound out and use it. That's a huge advantage to BoltBus, and the market may not be big enough for another competitor.


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## railiner

Back in the latter part of the last century, Continental Trailways (and Pacific Trailways) offered some competition to the much larger Greyhound Lines,....

I believe the population of the Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver, BC metro areas is much larger than it was then, so there should be sufficient market for more competition, don't you think?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Look, if Greyhound doesn't do something about those horribly uncomfortable D4505's, I'm not going to be happy. They need better seats in the D4505s or they should at least send Blue G4500s out west. I'm sick and tired of riding Painful Premier after Painful Premier.

I've deduced that most of the 102DL3s you see on Google Street View in Los Angeles Maintenance Center are Americanos DL3s or charter-only wheelchair-inaccessible Elevate Everything (white) DL3s. Very few actual Greyhound DL3s run in the West anymore. Seattle's obviously got Blue G4500s instead, being the G4500 axis.

Also, the X3-45s are almost always Americanos as well. A few come and go from Dallas or maybe New York City, but most are Americanos. They're being painted into Greyhound's livery right now.

So, in the West, as far as actual Greyhound schedules go, it's either Blue D4505 or Blue G4500. Even the White D4505s, which have more comfortable seats, are Americanos.

Americanos was always worse than Greyhound, but now they have more comfortable buses. What the heck? I better start seeing and riding more Blue G4500s here.


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## rickycourtney

jebr said:


> I think it's part being a success, but also partially that no other operator has a base there, and it's hard to justify a base for the buses for just one market. Megabus really likes having hubs, and I can't think of any of their routes that don't have at least one end at a major hub of theirs. I don't know if there's any other major intercity bus companies there.
> 
> BoltBus can use Greyhound facilities for servicing the bus, so there's not a ton of starting capital to bring in BoltBus (just the cost of the buses.) Heck, they can even not worry quite as much about spare buses, as in a pinch BoltBus could pull a Greyhound out and use it. That's a huge advantage to BoltBus, and the market may not be big enough for another competitor.


Megabus operates in a similar fashion with their California/Nevada routes. They run several routes (SF-Sacramento-Reno, SF-Oakland/San Jose-Burbank-LA-Anaheim & LA-Riverside-Vegas) with no hub. So you can't book a trip from Sacramento to Los Angeles or from San Francisco to Las Vegas. They actually re-started the service in California after seeing the success of BoltBus in the PNW.
But I get the point you're making. There was a very low cost of entry for BoltBus and lower overhead compared to other companies. I do think there's room in the corridor for another operator.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Don't say never. Maybe 50 years from now, they'll be ordering 2,000 units in a single contract. Right after World War II, Greyhound ordered over 3,000 Silversides in a single contract.


Fine, I *highly doubt* that Greyhound will ever place an order that large, even 50 years from now. Low cost air fares and a lingering reputation will make it nearly impossible for the new Greyhound to ever become the company it once was.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anyway, MCI added Bendix adaptive cruise control to the J4500 and presumably the D4505 as well for the 2015 model year. This is going to even the playing field a bit more between MCI and Prevost, though the Crappy Cummins still remains a potential issue. From National Bus Trader: http://www.busmag.com/mci-reliability-rally-showcase-upcoming-technologies-mci-j4500-d-series-coaches-setra-s-417-second-door-parts-training/.
> 
> When riding Greyhound's newest 86500-series D4505s, powered by the Cummins and with the fire suppressor to put out the increasingly-common engine fires, it's possible to hear a loud beeping every time the bus goes around a tight curve. Is this the radar? Did Greyhound manage to get radar on the D4505s to lower insurance costs?


Go back and re-read that article. It says that as of March 2014 MCI was *testing* the Bendix adaptive cruise control system. It doesn't say that it was added for the 2015 model year. But clearly this is a move to play catch up with Prevost.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Look, if Greyhound doesn't do something about those horribly uncomfortable D4505's, I'm not going to be happy. They need better seats in the D4505s or they should at least send Blue G4500s out west. I'm sick and tired of riding Painful Premier after Painful Premier.


Okay so *you* won't be happy... do you think Greyhound cares?

Do you really think after investing MILLIONS of dollars in the Premier they are going to take them all out and send them to a landfill? Then what? Spend MILLIONS of dollars buying seats from another manufacturer?

Sorry to be blunt... but get over it. The Premiers are here to stay.

The best you can hope for at this point is that Greyhound chooses a new seat for future purchases and that when these coaches get refurbished in 10 yeas they get replaced instead of getting new covers slapped on them.

Also I'll give Greyhound the benefit of the doubt and say there's a reason why certain buses run in certain areas. There's probably a reason why the X3-45's stay back east, there's probably a reason why Seattle has a lot of G4500's and there's probably a reason why you'll be stuck seeing D4505's for many years to come. That won't change simply because you want to see something other than the D4505.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but there were White G4500s in Reno for a long time and now that they're blue, they won't come back anymore? That really doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, I know they're not going to send the Premiers to a landfill, but that's what they did with the FAINSA Gaudis in the DL3s when they first replaced them with Amaya Patriot PTs. That's what they did with the late-model Detroit 50-powered MC-12s too, replaced the Narrowbody Gaudis with Patriot PTs.

If the Premiers are bad, and they are really bad, Greyhound will probably replace them when they can. Greyhound was replacing Gaudis in the DL3s with Patriot PTs as early as 2005 if not 2004.

Why does Seattle have lots of G4500s? Because they've always had lots of G4500s, that's where many G4500s were delivered. Same thing with the X3-45s, that's where they first entered service. But the D4505 entered service out of Chicago, and the G4500 entered service out of Dallas and Los Angeles. So why are the D4505s swamping Los Angeles all of a sudden while everything else can be seen in Chicago?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Megabus is actually just a brand used by Coach USA. They're like a spinoff of Coach USA in a similar fashion that BoltBus is a spin-off of Greyhound. Coach USA already had bases in the West when they started Megabus, so they simply used those resources. I believe Megabus is All-West? I think Megabus in Texas is actually Kerrville and in the Northeast, Olympia Trails.

While Megabus most likely needed more resources than BoltBus to start their operations, they were most definitely not a completely-new start-up like the Chinatown bus companies were.

Greyhound's trying to improve their reputation, right? And Greyhound's passengers hate the Premier LS, right? I'm not the only Greyhound customer that is unhappy, even downright mad, at the Painful Premiers. So, I'm thinking they might just want to do something about those seats.....


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## rickycourtney

*woosh* (that's the sound of my comments zooming right over your head)

Again, I'm sure there's a reason why certain buses run in certain areas and it likely has little to do with passenger comfort. You've mentioned it before... there's a lot of D4505s that are apparently delivered to and based out of Los Angeles (do Greyhound buses even have "home" bases?), so it isn't exactly shocking that they run on the west coast routes.

Greyhound just got some brand new X3-45's this year, all equipped with your least favorite seat. How long do you think it will take before those seats are replaced?

My guess... at least a decade. and that's if Greyhound still has a good owner who doesn't decided to cheap out on the rebuild.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm very un-athletic. I can't catch balls in the air, ever. Even if it's coming right at me. I get hit in the groin before I can catch it. Happened to me in junior high.

I don't think a decade. If I look at the Gaudis as an example, 7 years maybe? I think they're get a light refurb at 7 years which will include replacement of the Premiers with _x_ seating that will probably also be the new seating that Greyhound buys in new vehicle orders from now on. Especially because the Premiers are falling apart already, very easily damaged. Then if Greyhound decides on a rebuild, they'll simply resurface _x_ seating.

That's exactly what happened with the DL3s. Why do you say that can't happen to the D4505s and X3-45s?

If Greyhound's next order has Premiers, I'm not going to support Greyhound anymore. Now you just think about this for a second. Greyhound's trying to improve and get more passengers. Get rid of their bad reputation. If their fans are not being fans anymore, what will their haters become? And how many more people will reject Greyhound all over again? I know Greyhounds doing well on their financial report. Did you know Greyhound was doing well in 2001, and things were looking up, when they smacked everything down with the G4500? There you go. They're going to smack everything down with the Premier LS.

One person like me might not be enough to make a big company come to their knees, but 17 million riders sure as heck will. If each coach has $20,000 worth of Premiers, then Greyhound has spent $12,000,000 on Premiers. Fair enough Greyhound, you keep those Premiers. Don't buy them again. Greyhound buys them again, Greyhound will regret it.

They're falling apart already. #86307 had chips fallen off the armrests. They were only 4 years old. You really think they're last a decade?

And the 86300-series D4505s, they were delivered to Chicago. They were based out of Chicago for the then-new Express service. The late 86300s and the very few 86400s were state-owned units delivered all over the place . The 86500-series D4505s were delivered to Los Angeles for general service to displace the White G4500s for a rebuild. Then the 86300s in Chicago were sent to Los Angeles. By then Greyhound had enough blue buses that there was likely no separate pool for Express service.

You're sure there's a reason for this? All I can see is circumstance, I don't see operational reasons. I see that the White G's needed the rebuild and Greyhound's next order was for D4505s and X3-45s. They had a few 86300s in Los Angeles, I think about 20? So they sent the D4505s there for convenience and the X3-45s east. Currently, Los Angeles has up to 132 D4505s, #86301-86378 and #86513-86567.

I know because #86380-86407 are state-owned and #86500-86512 are state-owned. #86568 and up are state-owned.

#86337 burned up, taking one out. #86300 was recently spotted in Chicago, so it's probably still based there. It's listed separately on Texas DMV, so it might be different from the others. That makes 132, which means about 110 White G's displaced. Add the ones from Dallas and Seattle, and the numbers sound right.


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## rickycourtney

Saw H3-45 #6668 at the Seattle station today. Unlike its sister units it still hasn't been painted into the new livery.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound drivers on Facebook say rebuilds are over. Everything that's white now is going to stay white until Greyhound's stated "all-blue year" of 2016, when they'll likely be retired, unless they get lightly refurbished in-house. Rumors are that Greyhound can't find anybody willing to rebuild their buses at the price that ABC offered.

Greyhound's H3-45s are 2001s. The White H3-45s might just get retired in 2016, though I think they can last a bit longer, so maybe they'll be sold or painted blue without actual upgrades.

Oh yeah, Google Maps updated Street View for Los Angeles Maintenance Center again. #7036 is sitting in prison undergoing maintenance.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, I just found a DL3 interior with really weird seating that I've never seen before: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15165872133/sizes/l/.

Are those Nationals or FAINSAs?

BTW, that looks like a really nice interior! I wouldn't mind riding that motorcoach at all! Clean interior with enclosed parcel racks, TVs, and a great blue headliner.

What are those lights at the front of the headliner for? Lavatory has got to be one.


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## Caesar La Rock

IDK if anyone has seen this video, but this is interesting nonetheless.



Some Greyhound cars (buses) appear in this, including several former Greyhound units. Circa 1992.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks! Blue Ridge ran line-haul, didn't they? I always dig those 102A3s!

That Jacksonville-Detroit still runs, BTW.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks! Blue Ridge ran line-haul, didn't they? I always dig those 102A3s!
> 
> That Jacksonville-Detroit still runs, BTW.


It turns out Blue Ridge ended four years after this video was made.

http://cw42.tripod.com/Jon-7.html


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## Swadian Hardcore

Say, why did Blue Ridge run North Charleston-Charlotte instead of Charleston-Charlotte? Maybe someone should restart a route like; no one runs it right now. Greyhound routes you through Columbia, with the first segment being on Southeastern Stages.

Is "cars" a local term for motorcoaches or used everywhere? I've heard it mentioned before and Prevost is called "Prevost Car".


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## mightyjoe1201

I think it's a southern term. I've heard them use it to describe everything from cars to buses to trucks.


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## Caesar La Rock

Those 102A3s that Blue Ridge had were also 1988s with 6v92s. As for why no one runs that route, that's a question for the experts out there. I liked how that Southeastern Stages MC-8 was the only car (might as well refer it as such) that stood out in the bunch of MC-9s sitting there in Columbia. It's probably one of the 1977 or 1978 models from Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looking at that interior shot in the video, those 102A3s appear to have National Seating 4210As, or maybe back then it would have been 4209s. Notice how the video has pieces spliced in from another video about a Greyhound 102A3 running Seattle-Chicago. I believe Greyhound usually used 102A3s on long-haul routes after selling most of them during the 1991 bankruptcy.

According to Greyhound's fleet page of December 9th, 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000301205751/http://www.greyhound.com/), Greyhound had 270 102A3s at the time, but they originally had 925 in 1988. I think Greyhound tried to buy more 102A3s in 1990 but they went bankrupt before it could be done. Saw a picture of a 1990 102A3 with the "AMERICA" headsign, a remnant of the glory days of Greyhound. The interior looked like a Greyhound interior. Can't find the pictures now.

It sucks that the 102A3s were replaced by G4500s.

Edit: Oh wait, I found the pics: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/5815-1990MCI102A/#imgiframediv.

Those are Greyhound FAINSAs! The nameplate may be blotted out, but I know a Greyhound when I see one!


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, someone help me our please. How do u tell the difference between some of the models? Like what's the difference between a 102A3 and a 102C3? I can tell the difference in models with the same body design when it's obvious like length or width. Or a difference in window design


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## Swadian Hardcore

102A3 vs 102C3:
102A3 has a 96" nose, 102C3 has a 102" nose. So the 102A3 nose tapers.
102A3 has an extra band (usually black) underneath the windshield.
102C3 has double roof trim, 102A3 only has single roof trim.
102A3 usually has a big roof cap headsign, 102C3 usually has a half-width headsign above the driver.

102A3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/15002605861/sizes/l. 
102C3: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/6895010411/sizes/l. 

I think the 102A3 looks better.

102D3 has the flat rear end for the four-stroke engine. It also has the HVAC, fuel tank, and batteries in the middle instead of in the front. The 102D3 keeps the double roof trim from the 102C3 but has the 96" nose of the 102A3, though without the extra black band underneath.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thank you. I was able to tell the difference between the 102D3 and 102DL3 cause of the length. I never was able to tell between the 102A3 and 102C3. Now I can see the difference.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Anytime.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, anyone know how to update a profile on here? Can't figure out how to update mine. Thanks


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## Swadian Hardcore

Go to the top-right corner. You see your display name and "Sign Out"? In between is a downwards arrow. Click on it and select "My Profile". Then "Edit My Profile".


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## mightyjoe1201

Thank you.


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## mightyjoe1201

Doesn't give me an option for editing it. I may have to wait till I can get on a computer. My phone app doesn't give me the choice.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh, I don't have a phone so I don't really know what to do in your case. :unsure:


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## mightyjoe1201

Lol. That's ok. I don't have a computer right now so I'm the opposite of you.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Guess what? Found a town in Quebec by the name of Prevost: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pr%C3%A9vost,+QC,+Canada/@45.861974,-74.059744,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x4ccf2e1c959ca1b5:0xaf60b8b22652c88a!5m1!1e4.

Too bad Prevost's factory ain't there.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looking at that interior shot in the video, those 102A3s appear to have National Seating 4210As, or maybe back then it would have been 4209s. Notice how the video has pieces spliced in from another video about a Greyhound 102A3 running Seattle-Chicago. I believe Greyhound usually used 102A3s on long-haul routes after selling most of them during the 1991 bankruptcy.
> 
> According to Greyhound's fleet page of December 9th, 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000301205751/http://www.greyhound.com/), Greyhound had 270 102A3s at the time, but they originally had 925 in 1988. I think Greyhound tried to buy more 102A3s in 1990 but they went bankrupt before it could be done. Saw a picture of a 1990 102A3 with the "AMERICA" headsign, a remnant of the glory days of Greyhound. The interior looked like a Greyhound interior. Can't find the pictures now.
> 
> It sucks that the 102A3s were replaced by G4500s.
> 
> Edit: Oh wait, I found the pics: http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/5815-1990MCI102A/#imgiframediv.
> 
> Those are Greyhound FAINSAs! The nameplate may be blotted out, but I know a Greyhound when I see one!


They also had MC-9s and Eagles still running in 2000. The MC-9 fleet went down significantly once the DL3s arrived.


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## rickycourtney

So the other thread got me thinking... Greyhound is taking a really long time to get the eTicketing system rolled out. They've been testing it for months now on BoltBus. Anybody hear how that's going? It worked fine for me when I used it this summer.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I haven't heard anything about Greyhound right now. Lots of rumors and nothing concrete. Somebody said Greyhound would close all Maintenance Centers and just use MCI and Prevost Service Centers. Someone else said Bolt was using leased Van Hools in the PNW as another Van Hool experiment by Greyhound. Someone else said Greyhound was dropping MCI and Prevost in favor of cheaper Van Hools and some kind of Brazilian bus. Same guy said Greyhound was going to buy the TD925. Someone else said Greyhound's going to order buses in 2015 and are shopping around.

Nothing sounds concrete and nothing has materialized. Everything sounds like a joke right now.

Other than that H3-45, see anything else up there? Still no Bolt Van Hools, right?


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## rickycourtney

That's the thing eTicketing isn't a rumor... I used the beta version on a BoltBus trip over the summer. It seemed to work perfectly at the time, especially compared to my print at home ticketing experience earlier in the day on Greyhound.

I haven't seen any Van Hool's on BoltBus. Over the weekend I saw a couple X3-45s and one of the newer D4505s that was added to the fleet here in the PNW at some point last year.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Then I don't know. Maybe they're still testing it.

Other than the H3-45s, which Greyhounds have you seen in Seattle recently? I'm guessing more Blue G's?

I found out that before GLC ordered the VIPs, they used Nationals with winged headrests. Seems like GLC has always been obsessed with winged headrests, every GLC original unit has had them since at least 1989.


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## rickycourtney

I kinda figured that they might do a trial of eTicketing on a busy Greyhound route, like the Greyhound Express between Dallas and Houston. That's also the other market where the tested the BLUE Entertainment/Wi-Fi system. It's a shame that hasn't been rolled out nationwide yet. I was extremely impressed with that system.

I've mostly seen blue G4500s at the Seattle station, but I also see the occasional D4505 and the H3-45 (which looks great in the blue livery!) It's been a long time since I've seen a white G4500. The last time I can remember is the week after they moved to the new station in SoDo and they were using it as a free shuttle for passengers between the two stations.


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## rickycourtney

Over on CPTDB, it's been reported that Horizon Coach Lines (what's left if it) is going out of business at the end of the year. It's not entirely surprising. They've been limping wounded the last few years.

Here in Seattle they shuttered most of the operation last year but they held a small part together to complete their contracts with the cruise lines (saw plenty of Horizon Coach Line J4500 buses parked out in front of the Seattle Art Museum this summer).

So why does this belong on a Greyhound thread? Well as I've said before, Greyhound no longer owns a maintenance facility here in Seattle. They actually just lease space from Horizon Coach Lines (and I assume pay for their mechanics and cleaners to do light maintenance). Greyhound could end up buying the maintenance facility (I'm sure Horizon Coach Lines will be having a fire sale of sorts) or they will have to find another local operator to contact with for storage and maintenance.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

You won't believe what I saw in San Francisco today. A plain-white D4505 with the entire front bumper GONE! Says how bad these charter companies are these days. Deplorable!

Today's 8309 was D4505 #86536. Surprisingly, the seats didn't sag that much. We drove through a snowstorm around the summit. A pickup had spun out and gotten stuck. There was also pouring rain after the snowstorm all the way to SFD. We got in 30 minutes late.

Saw a single Americanos G4500 in Oakland. There's always an Americanos there around midday. Everything else was a D4505. A bus jam occurred when three D4505s arrived at the same time right as we were pulling out of Oakland. One of them was terrible #86544.

Every run I saw today was sold out. Need to get there early tomorrow to get a good seat. Dumbfounded about the D4505 right now. This one was actually not too bad in seating, but it did have big layers of dust around the windows, a normal D4505 phenomenon.

Still shocked at the bumper-less charter D4505.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> Over on CPTDB, it's been reported that Horizon Coach Lines (what's left if it) is going out of business at the end of the year. It's not entirely surprising. They've been limping wounded the last few years.
> 
> Here in Seattle they shuttered most of the operation last year but they held a small part together to complete their contracts with the cruise lines (saw plenty of Horizon Coach Line J4500 buses parked out in front of the Seattle Art Museum this summer).
> 
> So why does this belong on a Greyhound thread? Well as I've said before, Greyhound no longer owns a maintenance facility here in Seattle. They actually just lease space from Horizon Coach Lines (and I assume pay for their mechanics and cleaners to do light maintenance). Greyhound could end up buying the maintenance facility (I'm sure Horizon Coach Lines will be having a fire sale of sorts) or they will have to find another local operator to contact with for storage and maintenance.


Yes, Mr. Sherman of TMS (the company that owns Horizon), is refocusing his efforts on his highly successful event transportation business. Horizon was built around these events, not for the purposes of general charter and contract.

While they do just lease space from Horizon, Greyhound employs their own mechanics and cleaners and has a shop foreman in Seattle. Dispatch is conducted at the terminal. It's more likely that they would purchase the property than partner with a local op such as MTR Western.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> I kinda figured that they might do a trial of eTicketing on a busy Greyhound route, like the Greyhound Express between Dallas and Houston. That's also the other market where the tested the BLUE Entertainment/Wi-Fi system. It's a shame that hasn't been rolled out nationwide yet. I was extremely impressed with that system.


There are a lot of steps needed to in order to roll the system out nationwide. The intial tests though were very positive...


----------



## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> I haven't seen any Van Hool's on BoltBus. Over the weekend I saw a couple X3-45s and one of the newer D4505s that was added to the fleet here in the PNW at some point last year.


No Van Hools (confirmed) at the Black & Orange.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Since I'm completely unable to fall asleep, I'll just say that at Greyhound San Francisco today, there was an Amador EL3 that appeared to be running a Greyhound overload charter.


----------



## rickycourtney

metrolinecoach111 said:


> Yes, Mr. Sherman of TMS (the company that owns Horizon), is refocusing his efforts on his highly successful event transportation business. Horizon was built around these events, not for the purposes of general charter and contract.


That matches up with what I've heard. Specializing in event transportation seems like a strange niche business to me. The nice part about Cruise contracts is that while it's seasonal, it's consistent (you do the same number of trips, on the same day, week after week).


metrolinecoach111 said:


> While they do just lease space from Horizon, Greyhound employs their own mechanics and cleaners and has a shop foreman in Seattle. Dispatch is conducted at the terminal. It's more likely that they would purchase the property than partner with a local op such as MTR Western.


I also figured that it might be an arrangement like that, Greyhound's people working out of a leased space.I also imagine that Greyhound will purchase the facility, if they get a good deal on it, but it's going to be overkill for what they need. As far as I can tell, Greyhound stores about a dozen buses at the facility and only does light/preventative maintenance here in Seattle.



metrolinecoach111 said:


> There are a lot of steps needed to in order to roll the system out nationwide. The intial tests though were very positive...


I assume your talking about eTicketing and not the BLUE system. But with either system, that's good news.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You won't believe what I saw in San Francisco today. A plain-white D4505 with the entire front bumper GONE! Says how bad these charter companies are these days. Deplorable!
> 
> Today's 8309 was D4505 #86536. Surprisingly, the seats didn't sag that much. We drove through a snowstorm around the summit. A pickup had spun out and gotten stuck. There was also pouring rain after the snowstorm all the way to SFD. We got in 30 minutes late.
> 
> Saw a single Americanos G4500 in Oakland. There's always an Americanos there around midday. Everything else was a D4505. A bus jam occurred when three D4505s arrived at the same time right as we were pulling out of Oakland. One of them was terrible #86544.
> 
> Every run I saw today was sold out. Need to get there early tomorrow to get a good seat. Dumbfounded about the D4505 right now. This one was actually not too bad in seating, but it did have big layers of dust around the windows, a normal D4505 phenomenon.
> 
> Still shocked at the bumper-less charter D4505.


I'm equally shocked that you found a charter operator that owns a D4505.

I'm not shocked that every trip is sold out, it is one of the busiest travel weekends of the entire year. Greyhound sent out a news release saying that they expect more than a million passengers over the holiday travel period.

It will be interesting to see what happens at the Temporary Transbay Terminal when Amtrak moves in next year. I expect it to be even more crowded out in the bus bays and probably in the terminal too.

Hope your trip down "the 101" goes well today.

Let me know if you have any last minute questions about Southern California.


----------



## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> metrolinecoach111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Mr. Sherman of TMS (the company that owns Horizon), is refocusing his efforts on his highly successful event transportation business. Horizon was built around these events, not for the purposes of general charter and contract.
> 
> 
> 
> That matches up with what I've heard. Specializing in event transportation seems like a strange niche business to me. The nice part about Cruise contracts is that while it's seasonal, it's consistent (you do the same number of trips, on the same day, week after week).
Click to expand...

Their business model is indeed, very interesting and extremely successful. They primarily work a bunch of seasonal events (concerts and music festivals) and conventions. These jobs carry anywhere from 1000-100,000 people over the course of a few days and they work with every available operator to coordinate. The clients pay them to plan, manage and facilitate the services. The model works when you are infrastructure-light, as you can move from job to job easily. Aside from that, they are one of the few authorized vendors for the US Government to provide disaster relief transportation. Anytime you hear about evacuations, they are the ones coordinating the ground effort.

When they purchased the majority of companies in the now bankrupt Coach America group, they wanted to diversify and build out the general contracts on the corporate end. But when they had those event jobs, the margins were weighed down by the fact that they had infrastructure in place. They also had to compete with the same people they already partnered with and there's a limit to the amount of work available....

With the cruise ship work, it's only good if you have the right mix to complement the work. Same days, same number of buses, a steady margin, but what do they do the other days of the week? For companies like Academy (everywhere in the East), and Mears and Escot in Florida, they work because they have corporate and charter contracts to make the cruise contract worthwhile and profitable.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Rode white DL3 #60556 on 6825 today. Had the upgraded interior and LEDs. Wi-Fi worked fine. Comfortable Patriot PTs, two pairs of Gaudis in the very back. Was Greyhound #6523.


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## rickycourtney

What are gaudis?


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## Swadian Hardcore

They're old blockly FAINSAs. They're basically old-style Greyhound seats. This unit, originally #6523, would have originally had 55 Gaudis. Also, it still has no driver shield and it has a single old TV in the front on the right side. No video system so the TV is useless. It's definitely the weirdest bus I've ridden. Mixed seats, old TV, transferred to Americanos and back, blue interior with white exterior, even has wall power outlets, but it's a white bus! And all the amenities were working.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You won't believe what I saw in San Francisco today. A plain-white D4505 with the entire front bumper GONE! Says how bad these charter companies are these days. Deplorable!
> 
> Today's 8309 was D4505 #86536. Surprisingly, the seats didn't sag that much. We drove through a snowstorm around the summit. A pickup had spun out and gotten stuck. There was also pouring rain after the snowstorm all the way to SFD. We got in 30 minutes late.
> 
> Saw a single Americanos G4500 in Oakland. There's always an Americanos there around midday. Everything else was a D4505. A bus jam occurred when three D4505s arrived at the same time right as we were pulling out of Oakland. One of them was terrible #86544.
> 
> Every run I saw today was sold out. Need to get there early tomorrow to get a good seat. Dumbfounded about the D4505 right now. This one was actually not too bad in seating, but it did have big layers of dust around the windows, a normal D4505 phenomenon.
> 
> Still shocked at the bumper-less charter D4505.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm equally shocked that you found a charter operator that owns a D4505.
Click to expand...

There are some that do own D4505s down here. Just not that many compared to the other MCI coaches, Van Hools, Setras, Temsas, and Prevosts.


----------



## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> There are some that do own D4505s down here. Just not that many compared to the other MCI coaches, Van Hools, Setras, Temsas, and Prevosts.


That's why I meant it as a joke.


----------



## rickycourtney

I realize there is a lot of behind the scenes work that needs to happen to make eTicketing work.

I guess my judgement was somewhat clouded by my experience with Amtrak. The San Joaquin trains which I used to ride a lot were a test market for the system. eTickets were issued starting in April 2012 and the system was rolled out nationwide in August 2012. What I didn't realize was that Amtrak had already done a successful "alpha test" on the Downeaster trains in November 2011.

Interestingly Greyhound did send out a news release earlier this month saying it is modernizing its IT infrastructure to enable yield management and dynamic pricing. I have a feeling that this has something to do with eTicketing.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I wouldn't have expected this, but my bus to Sacramento overnight, Schedule 1446, was yet again, a DL3. It's another white one, #60316 ex-Americanos, second section. First section was D4505 #86522. I was the first guy on the second section, so I got my favorite seat. No boarding numbers used, though I saw it being used in Los Angeles.

This DL3 has FAINSA Gaudi seats, which were comfortable and I got much better sleep than on the new buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Currently on #86352, D4505 on Sked 8302 to Reno. Not very comfortable, but oh well.


----------



## rickycourtney

How was the trip to Southern California?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I think Los Angeles is great except for the suspicious people walking around on the streets. I didn't have enough time to really enjoy the attractions, so I'll have to return in the future. Lots of my plans got curbed due to fatigue and poor planning.

Los Angeles actually has an awesome Greyhound terminal. Very clean and spacious; the restrooms were much better than the Sacramento restrooms, and Sacramento is even considered one of the best terminals. Yes, the LAD terminal is in a bad area, but it's a great terminal, better than the airport, even.

The ride on #86352 was quite horrible. The driver got lost in Truckee and took us around in circles. He wasn't a very good driver and was hard on the steering wheel and the brakes, making the ride rougher than it had to be. The vehicle itself was in good condition, unlike #86307 which was in bad condition, but the seats were falling apart. The armrests were chipped, the covers were cracked and falling off, and the fabric seat backs were coated with dust. The air inside #86352 was stuffy, almost suffocating. I felt like riding a White G or worse.

#86352 actually didn't have a coating of dust along the top, like you saw in those Facebook photos. #86536, the bus I took outbound to SFD, did have that coating of dust, but it was better than #86352 in pretty much everything. Of course, the DL3s beat both of them, being more spacious inside, having much more comfortable seat, and having better air quality. The DL3s also went faster. #60316 is an awesome bus, really smooth-riding and fast. #60556 was a bit bumpier, though it could have been the difference in roads, since I rode #60556 on US 101 and #60316 on I-5. #60556 did have better seating, Patriot PT instead of Gaudi.

I'm still surprised by how well I slept on #60316 and how bad #86352 subsequently was. The latter was also 1 hour late and I almost got sick after dozing off and smacking my head onto the window air vents as the inexperienced driver fumbled around.


----------



## rickycourtney

It's actually not all that strange that those old Americanos DL3s were out for the holidays.

Americanos just got a bunch of X3-45s back in 2012, after that I assume they retired older buses like this DL3s to become backup buses. It only makes since that Greyhound put these buses out on the road now, their busiest time of the year.

Keeping those buses in reserve makes a lot of since. They have leather seats, power outlets and Wi-Fi. All the amenities passengers expect and since its plain white it can run on Greyhound, BoltBus or Americanos.

Now that being said, I hope Greyhound got rid of those G4500s in the Americanos livery. The ones I saw were always amongst the worst buses out on the road (including the one that had the engine hatch wide open while going up I-5).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

They didn't get rid of the Americanos G4500s. They're still running around on the non-Express Americanos schedules alongside the few white D4505s and J4500s. The Express Americanos schedules seem to get Blue DL3s, X3-45s, or Greyhound D4505s.

Regarding E-Ticketing, all I know is that, when using the ticket kiosks for Will Call, it give the option "Will Call / E-Ticketing" as if they are the same thing.

I wish Greyhound would scrap those Americanos G4500s and use the White DL3s instead. I see those G4500s more often than the White DL3s.


----------



## rickycourtney

There's a couple of different concepts at play here...

At the most basic level eTicketing means that the ticket is electronically held on a computer, instead of a "live" paper instrument with monetary value. Think old school plane tickets, if you lost it, it was like losing a stack of cash and it couldn't be replaced. With electronic ticketing the ticket you hold is mearly a physical representation of the electronic ticket, if you lose it the company can look up your reservation and print out a new ticket for you.

But in this high-tech age eTicketing has evolved to mean something more. Until recently airlines required you to have a physical document (a boarding pass) that could be collected at the gate and sent off for accounting purposes (to mark the electronic ticket used). Now thanks to new systems the airlines no longer need to collect a boarding pass from passengers. When you check in you get an eTicket which is scanned and your ticket us marked as used. Your eTicket is handed back or disposed of, no further accounting required.

Greyhound is stuck between those two worlds right now. The company issues tickets electronically, but paper documents (either printed by an agent or printed at home) still need to collected and sent off for accounting purposes.

Needless to say, there's a lot of back-end work that needs to be done to make the transition to a paperless system.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hopefully they get that done. Anyways, I measured the parcel racks and window elevation of the X3-45. The parcel racks are 9" tall and the windows are elevated 32". That's actually less than the E/J, MC-12, and Van Hools, which have windows elevated at 34". The parcel racks are a bit smaller than the MCI ones.

The D4505's inconsistency is going to really hit hard on MCI. #86352 was really a very bad motorcoach. I heard that MCI is focusing on the D4500CT for public sector use, but this jeopardizes the D4505 for private sector use. It's wrong to assume a coach that is good for public sector will be good for private sector, and vice versa. By the time I'm done ranting about #86352, I'll probably have to spit to clean my mouth. MCI seems like they originally intended the D's to be intercity coaches, and they did well. Then MCI decided to jump into the big commuter market, refocusing the D's for commuter service, then trying to still keep them useful for the private sector with the D4505, but then going bankrupt and failing hard while Prevost rushes ahead. The D4505 is worse than the 102DL3 while the X3-45 is better than the XL-45 or XL-II.

The X3-45 is probably a better commuter coach anyway; it has a smaller turning circle, a bit more headroom, and a lower deck. Right now the X3-45 can and should outsell the D4505.


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## rickycourtney

There was a couple of blurbs in the Truck & Bus Builder newsletter about MCI...


The CEO of MCI says that since mid-2012 they've been focusing on improving product quality and product reliability. That's a backwards admission that they had been producing crap for the last few years. To that end MCI sent engineers to Germany to receive training from Setra to learn how to improve quality.
Detroit Diesel is now producing a Buy America compliant DD13 and MCI is "reviewing the prospect of engineering it into its D search coach as an alternative power unit for the transit coach range" (translation: the D4500CT).
MCI is working on a new D4500 commuter coach for the transit industry that will feature a new steering system and axles from ZF which will reduce the turning radius (40' 11" compared to 47' on the current D4500 and 42' 6" on the X3-45) and Bendix brakes which means the Wingman system could be an option on the D4500 (Wingman is MCI's version of adaptive cruise control and virtually the same as Prevost's AWARE).
It sounds like that in 2015 there will be two J4500 models, a intercity coach and touring coach.
Reading between the lines:


MCI is feeling threatened by Prevost. The X3-45 Commuter Coach presents a huge challenge to their dominance in the transit industry. They have been forced to actually compete and improve their product.
The D4505 won't be around much longer. I think MCI will unify the D4500CT and the D4505 into one coach with a intercity coach model and a commuter coach model.
Transit customers are more lucrative to MCI than what few line-haul operators still remain.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I thought that if MCI is going to make intercity and touring J4500s, the intercity J4500 would basically replace the D4505 and the new D4500CT would be commuter-only to compete with the X3-45. MCI looks like they really want to challenge the X3-45 with redesigned D4500CTs with lots of improvements, but they seem unsure what to do about the private sector. Their J4500 is still the best-selling motorcoach and making an intercity J4500 to replace the poor-selling D4505 would be a good idea.

OTOH, on the grapevine, I heard that more than a few mechanics think "J if for Junk", while drivers seem to like the Restyled J4500s, and everybody seems to dislike the pre-Restyle J4500s. I'm also not sure why it is not possible to make a commuter version of the J4500. It would need a modified front end, but would it really be that hard?

Looking at this picture: http://busride.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/web-j45_12-.jpg, I see that the black bar above the windshield could accommodate the headsign and the sedan door could be replaced with transit doors; then bike racks slapped onto the nose. It shouldn't look bad and it would allow MCI to focus itself on its bestseller instead of trying to fight the X with the D and trying to fight the X and the H with the J. The J is being used for line-haul right now alongside the X (i.e. Peter Pan).

BTW, the H3-45 has one major advantage over the J4500, it has a much larger fuel tank, 230 vs 183 gallons.

Edit: I was looking through Flickr photos and found this new First Canada Restyled J4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16059574592/sizes/l.

Perhaps that was the new J4500 that visited Washington with the Greyhound Centennial Tour. After all, First owns Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Prevost has already beat MCI in private sector sales: http://www.metro-magazine.com/motorcoach/news/287835/report-prevost-private-sector-sales-market-leader.

MCI is still, overall, a tiny bit more popular than Prevost, but only due to public sector sales. Van Hool lags behind both.


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## rickycourtney

MCI has been moving to make the parts used on the D and J series more common. If they achieve that goal the D and J series will be nearly identical mechanically. That means the only major differences will be in their form. The J will look more sleek and possibly have larger windows for use as a tour bus. The D will be more utilitarian with things like durable rubber bumpers and space for larger destination signs.

I see it more along the lines that MCI will only offer two models with separate trim packages.

D4500 available with Commuter and Intercity packages and the J4500 available with Touring and Intercity packages.

Also if Prevost has MCI beat in private sector sales... it's no wonder why Prevost is trying to break into public sector sales.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The problem is, the D has a steel shell while the J has a fiberglass shell. Also, it appears that the J is built on a standard integral jig of stainless steel with fiberglass built over, whereas the D is built in two halves, with the bottom stainless and the top Cor-Ten, then molded in the middle to create an integral body. So they're always going to be significantly different in terms of bodywork.

You can see that in these photos from a MCI plant tour back in 2011: https://www.flickr.com/photos/vehicle-images/sets/72157630269187098/.

It seems like a major mistake MCI did with the D4505 was to lose the durable rubber bumper. I wonder which other durable parts MCI got rid of in the D4505 to make it look more like the J4500. The D4505 also has more window area than the J4500, I believe, or at least it only has 28" window elevation compared to 34" in the J, suggesting that the D's were always meant to be intercity coaches and are now slapstick commuter coaches (D4500CT) and slapstick touring coaches (D4505) while being beat at the intercity role by the X3-45.

For touring, I wonder how the H stacks up against the J.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The problem is, the D has a steel shell while the J has a fiberglass shell. Also, it appears that the J is built on a standard integral jig of stainless steel with fiberglass built over, whereas the D is built in two halves, with the bottom stainless and the top Cor-Ten, then molded in the middle to create an integral body. So they're always going to be significantly different in terms of bodywork.


Not sure about any of that, but again that's mostly a difference in the "form", not in the mechanics. The buses might be assembled differently (and that could all change in 2015) but mechanically they will be very similar. I'm not sure which would be better or more durable. I would guess the D would be (since it relies less on fiberglass) but the sales of J4500s seems to belie that notion.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> It seems like a major mistake MCI did with the D4505 was to lose the durable rubber bumper. I wonder which other durable parts MCI got rid of in the D4505 to make it look more like the J4500. The D4505 also has more window area than the J4500, I believe, or at least it only has 28" window elevation compared to 34" in the J, suggesting that the D's were always meant to be intercity coaches and are now slapstick commuter coaches (D4500CT) and slapstick touring coaches (D4505) while being beat at the intercity role by the X3-45.


That's what made the D4505 such a strange bus. They made a lot of cosmetic changes to the D4500 that made it look a sleeker, but also made it less durable. That made it less appealing to transit and intercity operators, but it didn't make it that much more appealing to tour operators.

But I totally disagree that the D4500CT is a "slapstick commuter coach". It's a great platform for commuter transit work (plus the rubber bumper is still offered as an option on the D4500CT).


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound bus involved in a very serious accident in North Carolina today. The Greyhound driver slammed into the rear of a NC Highway Patrol car that was protecting the scene of a fatal accident.



> Witnesses told ABC11 that the Mebane Fire Department was on the scene of a disabled vehicle when a vehicle hydroplaned into the back of the fire chief's Chevy Tahoe. A woman in the car, 33-year-old Tiffany Jennings, was killed.
> 
> Then, as a NC Highway Patrol trooper sat in his SUV blocking traffic for the crash, he was hit from behind by the Greyhound bus.
> 
> The fire chief was treated and released. The trooper was taken to the hospital for treatment of broken bones. No firefighters or law enforcement officers were killed.
> 
> There were 41 passengers on the bus. EMS workers on the scene unloaded several injured people and put them into ambulances. They were taken to Duke University Hospital. There was no immediate word on patient conditions.
> 
> The North Carolina Highway Patrol said all the emergency vehicles had their flashing lights activated. It's not clear why the bus driver could not slow down or move over to avoid the trooper's SUV. The investigation was ongoing.
> 
> The bus driver was charged with reckless driving and failing to reduce speed to avoid a collision. He was not injured.


Full story here: http://abc11.com/449379/

I find it somewhat interesting that they cited the driver so quickly and without first reviewing the footage for the onboard DriveCam. I'm used to accident investigations taking several weeks or months before drivers are cited or charged. But I'm guessing there was a lot of qualified witnesses (including first responders) at this scene.

That DL3 is probably totalled and heading for the scrap yard now. I'd also like to point out the fact that the wheelchair lift and access door was used to evacuate the passengers off of the damaged bus, which once again supports my argument that wheelchair lift doors should be required to be equipped with emergency release latches on the inside.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Which DL3 is that, #6x77? Looks like the second number is either a "2" or a "3" so it would be either #6277 or #6377. Not sure if it would be totaled, but the front end certainly got totaled, though no damage elsewhere. #6468 got involved in a somewhat similar accident and was returned to service after major repairs.

I wonder what that driver was doing. Did he fall asleep or something? Texting? Writing in his logbook? He really should not have piled himself into that accident, assuming those charges of reckless driving are true. Greyhound really needs to take a good look at their extra drivers, they seem to drive recklessly a lot more than the regular drivers.

Greyhound seems to have a lot more accidents and driver-related complaints in the East than in the West. I'd say, overall, Greyhound has a better reputation in the West, especially with their good terminals at Los Angeles, Sacramento, Portland, and possibly elsewhere. A lot of drivers in the East have been videotaped while texting, calling, writing in their logbook, or getting into confrontations with passengers.

For some reason, most of the windows remain closed while the wheelchair door is open. I thought that, upon impact, the passengers would all grab the window escape bar and try to get out ASAP.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Which DL3 is that, #6x77? Looks like the second number is either a "2" or a "3" so it would be either #6277 or #6377. Not sure if it would be totaled, but the front end certainly got totaled, though no damage elsewhere. #6468 got involved in a somewhat similar accident and was returned to service after major repairs.


It's clearly 6377. I'm sure it *could* be repaired, but at that 14 years old, I'm not sure it's worth it. 


Swadian Hardcore said:


> For some reason, most of the windows remain closed while the wheelchair door is open. I thought that, upon impact, the passengers would all grab the window escape bar and try to get out ASAP.


Don't forget, from the bottom of the window to the ground is a long drop. You could be seriously injured jumping out of that window. It's better than being trapped, but if there's no longer any imminent danger, why risk injury?


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## railiner

Even with transit doors, and other mods, I don't think the J model would sell to too many transit agencies, mainly because of the extra step to reach the aisle height....

take too long loading and unloading, don't you think?


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Greyhound bus involved in a very serious accident in North Carolina today. The Greyhound driver slammed into the rear of a NC Highway Patrol car that was protecting the scene of a fatal accident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Witnesses told ABC11 that the Mebane Fire Department was on the scene of a disabled vehicle when a vehicle hydroplaned into the back of the fire chief's Chevy Tahoe. A woman in the car, 33-year-old Tiffany Jennings, was killed.
> 
> Then, as a NC Highway Patrol trooper sat in his SUV blocking traffic for the crash, he was hit from behind by the Greyhound bus.
> 
> The fire chief was treated and released. The trooper was taken to the hospital for treatment of broken bones. No firefighters or law enforcement officers were killed.
> 
> There were 41 passengers on the bus. EMS workers on the scene unloaded several injured people and put them into ambulances. They were taken to Duke University Hospital. There was no immediate word on patient conditions.
> 
> The North Carolina Highway Patrol said all the emergency vehicles had their flashing lights activated. It's not clear why the bus driver could not slow down or move over to avoid the trooper's SUV. The investigation was ongoing.
> 
> The bus driver was charged with reckless driving and failing to reduce speed to avoid a collision. He was not injured.
> 
> 
> 
> Full story here: http://abc11.com/449379/
> 
> I find it somewhat interesting that they cited the driver so quickly and without first reviewing the footage for the onboard DriveCam. I'm used to accident investigations taking several weeks or months before drivers are cited or charged. But I'm guessing there was a lot of qualified witnesses (including first responders) at this scene.
> 
> That DL3 is probably totalled and heading for the scrap yard now. I'd also like to point out the fact that the wheelchair lift and access door was used to evacuate the passengers off of the damaged bus, which once again supports my argument that wheelchair lift doors should be required to be equipped with emergency release latches on the inside.
Click to expand...

Uh oh, that's not good news.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I guess that depends on how much it would cost. Up to $100,000 for a repair might be OK. Anything more, perhaps not. It did get a full rebuild not long ago and was probably slated to remain in service into the early 2020s.

BTW, according to Metro Magazine, Indian Trails paid $3,800,000 for 7 recent H3-45s for their Michigan Flyer service. They seem to have Torino G Plus seating: http://www.michiganflyer.com/Portals/0/Images/riding-bus-big.jpg.

That's about $542,871 per coach.

Indian Trails also seems to have the D4505 in service, which I don't think is a good idea considering how the D4505 is probably one of the worst options in the market. It's, according to reasonable observations, a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none.

I think the X3-45 actually has 5 steps up, just like the E/J. Perhaps the spiral entryway will actually enhance loading/unloading.

According to reasonable observations, I think the MCIs and Prevosts in the market can be divided into:


D for commuters and intercity, but getting beat by X in both.
X for commuters and intercity, beating up D.
H for touring and intercity, stalemate against J.
J for touring and intercity, stalemate against H.
The H and J seem like the best options for the private sector. The H has longer driving range, high capacity, and is actually pretty durable, too; 1998 H3-45s are still running for Greyhound Canada (ex-Voyageur). The J seems to be more efficient and has just-as-high capacity. Durability was poor before the Restyle but may be better now.


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## railiner

I haven't driven a new J, but have sat in their (Martz's) driver's seat, and I still don't like 'em......still don't feel 'at home', even though we've had J's for 13 years or so....


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## rickycourtney

I don't think we will see a J series commuter bus anytime soon.
Transit agencies have very strict Buy America and Altoona testing that MCI would need to comply with. It would also require some major engineering changes to the front cap to accommodate a large head sign and rubber bumpers. After all is said and done they have a funky looking version of their premier coach out on the road. Sort of cheapens that "premier" image.

I'm curious how much longer transit agencies will keep buying commuter coaches from Prevost and MCI. They are really good on routes where you make a few "pick-up only" stops, drive a long distance on a highway and make a few "drop-off only" stops. Other than that... they're useless.

While I'm not a fan of the double-decker for use as an intercity coach... they actually make good commuter coaches.

Unlike the D and X they have two doors so passengers can board and exit at the same time and upstairs they have a similar configuration with 49 high-back reclining seats, but downstairs they have 28 transit style seats and wheelchair restraints with room for 20 standees. Compared to articulated buses they also require less maintenance and use less fuel.

They are also low-floor and have accessibility ramps instead of lifts... which is a huge downside to the D and X. While the very high floor design make for a smooth ride, accessibility is clearly an afterthought. Whenever a passenger using a wheelchair wants to board the driver has to get up, fold up four seats, get out, deploy the lift, board the passenger, stow the lift, get back on and help put restraints on the wheelchair. The whole process takes about 3-4 minutes, meaning a loss of about 7 minutes over the course of a trip. On one of these double-deckers the wheelchair boarding process takes about 90 seconds.

Community Transit up here in Western Washington bought 23 back in 2011. They like them so much they placed an order for 22 more and convinced Sound Transit to buy 5 as a test.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> I'm curious how much longer transit agencies will keep buying commuter coaches from Prevost and MCI. They are really good on routes where you make a few "pick-up only" stops, drive a long distance on a highway and make a few "drop-off only" stops. Other than that... they're useless.


You forgot to mention one HUGE exception to that statement - and ultimately, it's the only exception that matters: NJ Transit. NJT grounds and pounds the hell out of ALL of their MCI D4000s and D4500s. Many, especially in North Jersey are operated as glorified-transit buses because of the distance they travel, the type of work they do (mixed transit and commuter on highway and local roads) and clientel they serve (suburbs, commuters to NY). Even in South Jersey, the cruisers operate many mixed routes with some highway, some local and rural roads and urban areas with lots of on and off.

The NJ Transit order will also provide coaches for several privately owned commuter bus carriers which operate routes into NYC such as Coach USA, Academy, DeCamp, Lakeland and Carefree in North Jersey.

NJ Transit is the "big one" for these builders because everyone (and I mean everyone) in the transit/commuter field pays attention to what they do. Their order of 1000+ vehicles over 4 years dictates what a builder will do and the last order in 2002-2004 revived the D-series at MCI.

The start of the next order will come in 2015/2016.....time will tell.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If NJT using D4500s as glorified transit buses, why don't they just buy glorified transit buses? Like the New Flyer LF Suburbans operating in Seattle? Or the Gillig and Orion LF Suburbans operating in the SF Bay Area? I mean, they'll have easier loading/unloading, better accessibility, all the advantages of a transit bus with extra comfort for longer rides. Even better, there _was_ the NABI 45C-LFW that is extensively used in Los Angeles on transit routes. Why not a suburban version of that?

When riding Santa Clarita Transit's D4000, I found loading and unloading to be a pain in the butt. Also, on Greyhound, loading/unloading a wheelchair from a D4505 can take as much as 10 minutes each way, or 20 minutes total, if the driver is inexperienced with the lift. I know they give training and all, but if you don't use the lift for a whole month and then you have to use it, no doubt you'll be clumsy and waste time.

Even if NJT uses the D-units in huge numbers, that doesn't mean other transit agencies have to follow. Most transit agencies are normal transit agencies, serving the urban area and surrounding suburbs, not serving a whole state. For example, UTA's MCI D4500CLs sit doing nothing for most of the day and only drive out for rush hour, a major waste of a durable coach.

If a motorcoach can run mixed routes, what's to say a suburban or a double-decker can't do the same? In this case, I agree with Ricky. It almost feels like corruption is at work boosting commuter coach sales for MCI.


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If NJT using D4500s as glorified transit buses, why don't they just buy glorified transit buses? Like the New Flyer LF Suburbans operating in Seattle? Or the Gillig and Orion LF Suburbans operating in the SF Bay Area? I mean, they'll have easier loading/unloading, better accessibility, all the advantages of a transit bus with extra comfort for longer rides. Even better, there _was_ the NABI 45C-LFW that is extensively used in Los Angeles on transit routes. Why not a suburban version of that?
> 
> When riding Santa Clarita Transit's D4000, I found loading and unloading to be a pain in the butt. Also, on Greyhound, loading/unloading a wheelchair from a D4505 can take as much as 10 minutes each way, or 20 minutes total, if the driver is inexperienced with the lift. I know they give training and all, but if you don't use the lift for a whole month and then you have to use it, no doubt you'll be clumsy and waste time.
> 
> Even if NJT uses the D-units in huge numbers, that doesn't mean other transit agencies have to follow. Most transit agencies are normal transit agencies, serving the urban area and surrounding suburbs, not serving a whole state. For example, UTA's MCI D4500CLs sit doing nothing for most of the day and only drive out for rush hour, a major waste of a durable coach.
> 
> If a motorcoach can run mixed routes, what's to say a suburban or a double-decker can't do the same? In this case, I agree with Ricky. It almost feels like corruption is at work boosting commuter coach sales for MCI.


You and Ricky make valid points. Your collective argument has been made at many junctures relating to NJT. And yes, in almost every other instance, other types of transit-designed equipment will suffice.

There are multiple reasons why those buses are used the way they're used there. It's a truly unique market and the only one of its kind in the US. One is for versatility - they can run both transit and highway commuter routes and the routes that are a weird mix of the two. The second is the primary reason most agencies that have them get them - passenger comfort and durability.

Transit type buses have limited range on the highway in everyday travel - mostly within a 30-45 minute driving distance on the highway aside from any local routings. The buses need to have a sustained lifespan, so running those buses in that manner beyond its means won't work out good. Also, people generally pay a premium above a transit fare to ride these services. To attract people to leave their cars at home or at a park and ride, you have to give them something, and that something is greater comfort. There are exceptions to this rule however, most notably in the case of SEPTA in Philadelphia that uses New Flyer buses on intra-urban routes.

As for why NJT doesn't use suburbans for commuter routes - they actually do to an extent. In every case where they're deployed for interstate service, they follow the specifications I listed above. But in other areas - notably the populous Bergen County, where over 50% of NYC bound commuters are from, with relatively few exceptions, good luck putting a transit bus on a commuter line.

To your point about double deckers, they work in situations where there is limited on-off boarding and passenger turnover at stops. Commuter routes are prime, but not so much with local transit routes that work volume. Not saying it can't be done, as is the case overseas (where they have better on board fare payment technology to facilitate today), but the loading/unloading can be time consuming. NJT doesn't use them for the simple reason that they can't fit in the Port Authority Bus Terminal.

Other commuter carriers took to MCI after the NJT order because they piggybacked the order - in other words, it was cheaper to purchase because of the volume NJT requested. Also, many state and local agencies receive federal funding for their buses and many RFP's have verbiage that require certain things that make only highway motorcoaches viable.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree that they are more comfortable than transit buses, though I must point that most of these commuter coaches have American Seating, which is notoriously uncomfortable for motorcoach seating. I also agree that NJT is serving a unique market, the only one of its kind in the US, but then that contradicts the use of piggybacking by other agencies onto NJT orders, if their needs are different from NJT's. I'm thinking that the people who are writing the RFPs for motorcoaches, when their agency doesn't need motorcoaches, are people that don't know about or don't ride motorcoaches.

So I see how NJT orders tons of D4500s for their network, but I don't see how other cities justify piggybacking.

As a Philadelphian, I've always seen SEPTA as "doing the right thing" by not jumping into the commuter coach craze. Los Angeles and Chicago are other examples, not to mention Vancouver and Montreal over in Canada. Yeah, LADOT Commuter Express uses them, but that's more of a specialty service. I think GO Transit is the Canadian equivalent of NJT, but TTC doesn't use commuter coaches either. I think UTA and Sound Transit both use too much commuter coaches, especially with parallel FrontRunner and Sounder commuter rail, respectively.

AC Transit was overusing them, but have now switched to Gillig Suburbans. Their Transbay routes don't go above 1 hour.


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## rickycourtney

Well your recent trip to Southern California is a great example of where motorcoaches do well on commuter routes.

On the weekend route Santa Clarita 757 picks up passengers at the McBean Transit Center and runs non-stop using mostly freeways to North Hollywood station.

But the problem is with the weekday route which makes 6-8 stops inside Santa Clarita. At each stop the passengers who are boarding have to wait as the passengers who are getting off the bus at that stop disembark.

The way they get around that on other routes is they make the beginning of the route "pick-up only" and the end of the route "drop-off only." It works, but you alienate other passengers who want to travel the same direction that bus is going.

That's why using motorcoaches as transit buses is somewhat problematic. Of course you can always adopt the New Jersey Transit attitude and just do it anyway!


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## rickycourtney

As to Sound Transit... the express bus routes run 7 days a week with with half-hourly bi-directional headways, dropping to 5 minute headways during the rush hour. Sounder runs 8 trains in the peak direction, 5 days a week with headways of 20-30 minutes (and the north line runs even fewer trains). 

I'd love if the Sounder trains ran frequently and the buses could go away, but BNSF would never allow that. For the moment the trains are just there to provide very high capacity, rapid transit during rush hour only.

Long term the goal is to extend Link Light Rail up to Everett and down to Tacoma, which would indeed be able to replace the buses.


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## mightyjoe1201

I can tell you from experience, it really doesn't take long to load and unload passengers thru one door. All but two of our transit buses here only have one set of doors. Most of us just wait to open the doors till the onboard passengers get to the doors. As a matter of fact, our two with back doors we don't even use the back doors. Takes no longer then using two sets of door.

I just don't understand how a coach is usable for transit unless it's a long run with few stops.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like MCI's D4500CT now has the same bumpers and fender flares as the D4505: http://www.mcicoach.com/public-sector/publicCommuter.htm.

Of course the old parts are probably still available as an option, though I cannot understand MCI's seeming obsession with making the D4500CT more aesthetically appealing at the expense of durability.

Also, that 40'11" turning circle that MCI announced for the 2015 D4500CT with IFS is the same turning circle as the 2015 J4500 with IFS, suggesting MCI is simply slapping the J4500 suspension onto the D4500CT. But the D4500CT's old 47' turning circle was with a trailing tag axle; the J4500 had the same turning circle with a fixed tag axle and a 45' turning circle with the trailing tag.

MCI seems like they like to talk and show but don't like to act. They say the D4505 is durable, even though some of them have not been holding up that well. Greyhound drivers on Facebook are having the general opinion of, "I used to be a MCI man, but their quality seems to have taken a hit with the new 86500s (2013 Cummins-power D4505s). I just drove a new Prevost and really enjoyed it."


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## rickycourtney

Interestingly MCI's photos of the CNG and Hybrid versions of the D4500CT both show rubber bumpers.

http://www.mcicoach.com/public-sector/publicCng.htm

http://www.mcicoach.com/public-sector/publicHybrid.htm

Yes the axles and steering system are the same on the new J4500 and the new D4500CT. Again, like I said, MCI is trying to increase parts commonality.


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## Swadian Hardcore

True, those show rubber bumpers. The CNG is a D4000CT which is the "shorty" version. I'm not sure MCI should slap the J4500 steering system onto the D4500CT considering how the vehicles are structured differently. For the D4500CT to achieve a 40'11" turning circle, it would probably need not only IFS, but also a trailing tag axle, because J4500 had the same turning circle as the D4500CT before IFS without a trailing tag axle. Every 45-footer D since the 102DL3 has had the trailing tag.

I used to think these Ds would be great intercity coaches, but now I withdraw my statement that, if I were an intercity operator, I would buy the D4500CL with tons of upgrades. Now that MCI seems to have inconsistent quality and is doing especially poorly with private-sector D-units, I would probably be divided between the H and J. I still wouldn't buy the X, however, because the weighs the same as the H and has no obvious advantages. The X does not appear to be more durable than the H.

What would you buy?


----------



## rickycourtney

I'm starting to get the feeling you didn't actually read the link I posted. All your questions about the trailing axle are answered in there. I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say they are "slapping" it on, there's clearly plenty of engineering going on considering they are testing prototype buses right now.

If I was a line haul operator I'd probably buy an X. But if I did occasional charters or ran a luxury line I'd go with the H.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No, I didn't read the whole article. I just read parts on the J4500.

Why would you buy the X instead of the H?


----------



## rickycourtney

Look I think your opinion of the D4505 and the X3-45 is tainted by Greyhound's awful choice in seating.

I happen to think the X3-45 is a great bus for intercity routes (as much as I think *ANY* bus is good for intercity travel) and I think the D4505 is good.

Look, i've been on dozens of trips on the D4505s operating on the Amtrak California Thruway Motorcoach routes and always found it to be an enjoyable experience... but they have comfortable seats.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

OTOH, D4505 #86352 not only had uncomfortable seats, it also had a rough ride, whereas the other D4505s don't have such a rough ride. Even MCI released the backwards admission that they've been building low-quality vehicles for a while. Greyhound has a much larger pool of D4505s than any Amtrak California contractor which could explain the glaring inconsistencies between Greyhound's D4505s.

I still don't see what advantages the X3-45 has over the H3-45 for intercity service other than faster loading/unloading or maybe crosswind handling, neither of which are easily tangible for intercity use. Whereas the H3-45 has advantages over the X3-45, like more luggage capacity and longer driving range, that could be useful for intercity use. I don't think the X is more durable either, though it's not _less_ durable. That's why I would not use the X3-45 for intercity use, nor would I use the D4505 due to the inconsistencies of that model (and I don't like the Cummins engine). I'm not a J4500 fan either, having been on multiple J4500s that had mechanical problems, but I hope the Restyled J4500 is better, as drivers have said.

So yeah, I think the _best_ intercity motorcoach in production is the H3-45, followed by the Restyled J4500, followed by the X3-45, followed by the D4505. I cannot find evidence than the X is better than the H or the D is better than the J.


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## rickycourtney

I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, it's an industry secret. I asked on GTE for the prices, and the manager of Certified Transportation, Eric Gregory, replied saying that it's confidential. Certified Transportation recently took delivery of some new Restyled J4500s; they also have a D4005 for smaller groups. They also have Van Hools and Prevosts. Some of their Van Hools run for Amtrak California Thruway service.

Too bad there's no MSRP for motorcoaches. I'm sure that you can find some clues in Metro Magazine and National Bus Trader.

This recent article on Metro Magazine says that 7 slightly upgraded H3-45s for Indian Trails' Michigan Flyer cost $3.8 million: http://www.metro-magazine.com/motorcoach/news/292744/michigan-flyer-adds-7-luxury-coaches. 

They're equipped with Amaya Torino G Plus seating, enclosed parcel racks, TV's, Wi-Fi (and outlets?) and swap-and-plug wheelchair lifts: http://www.michiganflyer.com/portals/0/Images/innerbus-big.jpg.

The "stock" H3-45 has open parcel racks, no wheelchair lift, no Wi-Fi, and no TVs, so they'll probably cost $500,000 apiece. Eric did say a wheelchair lift costs $20,000-30,000 extra in a new coach, up to $60,000 for a retrofit. So a "stock" H3-45 with WCL but no extra bells or whistles will probably cost about $525,000, which would be a bit more than the X3-45, which Greyhound says costs $500,000 with WCL. Again, for a bit more, I would rather have the H than the X.


----------



## rickycourtney

Where did Greyhound say that an X3-45 costs $500,000?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.


Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?

I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.


That's true he did say “New buses configured the way we wanted them would have cost $500,000 each”. I'd just like to see a more accurate figure.


railiner said:


> Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?
> 
> I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....


No, but Swad did once. He got hung up on then got scolded by the Greyhound enthusiasts over on GTE. :giggle:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious to know the "list" prices for each coach, but it seems to be an industry secret.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you try calling their sales office for a quote? I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....
Click to expand...

:blink:



rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't David Leach say in a news release that he was rebuilding motorcoaches (102DL3s) at $120,000 when a new motorcoach would have cost $500,000? You quoted that news release sometime back. A new motorcoach for Greyhound is the X3-45. I doubt the D4505 is that different in price.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true he did say “New buses configured the way we wanted them would have cost $500,000 each”. I'd just like to see a more accurate figure.
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you try calling their sales office for a quote?
> 
> I suppose they would only reply to what they would consider a "serious" query.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, but Swad did once. He got hung up on then got scolded by the Greyhound enthusiasts over on GTE. :giggle:
Click to expand...

I did? No I didn't. What I did do once was ask for a quote on the H3-45 and was told it'd be $510-525k. I also asked for the D4505 and J4500 and got ~$540k and $535-545k respectively. Then the guy on GTE told me the H3-45 figures were "closer to the actual figures", but when I asked for specific figures, he said that it's confidential. Now, the guy that told me that doesn't use WCLs, and the H3-45 I asked for a quote on included a WCL.

So overall, since the H3-45 figures were cheaper than the J4500 figures, I'm guessing a big new motorcoach would be about $500,000 for a MCI or Prevost. As for specific prices, IDK, but looking at the Metro Magazine article and the other clues I have, I'm guessing the H3-45 is going to be $525k with WCL or $500k with no WCL, add more for extras like TVs or enclosed parcel racks, etc.

No idea at all for the D, J, or X, but since the D and X have been ordered by public transit agencies, they should have prices released publically.


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## rickycourtney

Working on a trip report for your recent jaunt down to Los Angeles?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Naw, but I can post a photo travelogue.

That reminds me, I'm wondering why Greyhound rebuilt the G4500s instead of finishing the DL3 rebuilds. For example, why did Greyhound rebuild #7104, a G4500 that smelled like burning plastic and was the worst Greyhound I've ever taken, instead of rebuilding #60556, a DL3 that already has a (factory-installed) wheelchair lift? Of course, all the G4500s do have wheelchair lifts.

My guess is that the G4500s must get much better MPG than the DL3s or else they wouldn't have tried putting lipstick on a pig. OTOH, the G4500 rebuilds seem to have done well and I saw three blue ones at Los Angeles. I only got the number of #7025. It was sitting in the shop getting work done, but in the evening, it went to the Ready Lot for departure the next day. Another one was sitting by the shop and the third one pulled out.

All I know so far is that the Blue G4500s seem to dominate all Greyhound's relatively-new long-haul corridors. I hope Greyhound will take advantage of the G4500s long range and cut some of those boring refueling stops, a Blue G should be able to do New York City-Saint Louis or Los Angeles-Portland on one tank with no problems. The Sacramento refueling stop really sucks for through passengers; they have to get off the bus with a reboarding pass and claim their baggage as well while the motorcoach drives out for the refuel. The Sacramento refuel location seems to be very far from the bus terminal. They have to actually go out on I-5 and it usually take 1 hour for the refueling and cleaning.

BTW, the second worst Greyhound I've ridden was #86352, to emphasize how bad it was.


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## rickycourtney

The Greyhound Lines Wikipedia page says that Greyhound Express passengers...



> are assigned to a boarding group, which means that passengers who purchased their tickets earlier get to board the bus and choose their seats earlier.


Is that true? I thought boarding groups were only a BoltBus thing. Is that the possible reason for the boarding number?


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## Swadian Hardcore

No, it isn't true. Remember when I rode 1446? That was most definitely an "express", or actually, more like a "semi-express", but anyway, no boarding groups used. I did see it in use for Los Angeles-Las Vegas, but it's definitely not used most of the time.

So please, if you can, do edit it to say that it is usually not used. I'm not sure what source you would cite, so that's why I say _if you can_.

Any idea why Greyhound was rebuilding G4500s instead of finishing 102DL3 rebuilds?

Also, what do you think about standardization vs specialization? Is it better for bus operators in general, not just Greyhound, but bus operators in general, to use only one bus model for everything, or to use different model for different tasks?


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> No, it isn't true. Remember when I rode 1446? That was most definitely an "express", or actually, more like a "semi-express", but anyway, no boarding groups used. I did see it in use for Los Angeles-Las Vegas, but it's definitely not used most of the time.
> 
> So please, if you can, do edit it to say that it is usually not used. I'm not sure what source you would cite, so that's why I say _if you can_.


Just so I'm clear, sometimes they use the boarding numbers, just not consistently? Have you seen them use it for any route or just to the Greyhound express routes?



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Any idea why Greyhound was rebuilding G4500s instead of finishing 102DL3 rebuilds?


Educated guess... Greyhound didn't rebuild the 102DL3 units that weren't worth it for whatever reason. They may have some sort of defect (still roadworthy, but not able to be repaired), had been rebuilt somewhat recently or they were just simply too old. There's no point in spending $120,000 on a rebuild when the bus will only be on the streets for a few more years.

Considering ABC has closed the rebuild shop, Greyhound will probably never rebuild the 102DL3s that aren't rebuilt now.

Also it appears that the G4500 refurb was done in house by Greyhound. My guess is that there was no major mechanical work (like replacing the engines). Greyhound just picked the 175 best G4500 units, did some much needed maintenance and gave them a fresh coat of paint. The rest were retired (over 200 units by my count).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

A GTE source says GLI, GLC, and all subsidiaries took delivery of 446 G4500s. So yes, well over 200 should have been retired, though I did see a bunch of White G4500s sitting in Los Angeles. #7158 and #7273 were sitting in the shop and an Americanos one (#60693) was sitting in the Ready Lot, meaning all three of those are still in service, otherwise they would be sitting in the boneyard. For the record, there was a D4505 in the boneyard, probably burned out of commission.

As for the boarding numbers, I've only seen them in use once or twice at the most. I can say that, in the _vast majority_ of my experience, boarding numbers are not used, and I've never had them used on me. However, they are issued for both express and local tickets.

Reboarding passes are used all the time, however, and I saw them in use for through passengers going north of SAC on 1446.

Another GTE source says that, when he drives the rebuilt G4500s, he feels like they are much different from the original G4500s. He says they have a noticeably larger turning circle, and thinks that Greyhound replaced or at least partially replaced the axles and suspension. Also, when I was riding #7029, I noticed that the original spiral entryway of the G4500 had been replaced by a straight-diagonal entryway. It wasn't like the L-shaped ones on most motorcoaches, but it was definitely straight. I guess it would be best described as a K-shaped entryway.

So I'm guessing Greyhound did do heavy work on the rebuilt G4500s.

Maybe another reason some DL3s did not get rebuilt could have been rust. I know some parts of the DL3 are stainless steel, but there's still the aluminum roof or mild-steel sidebelt that could get corroded easily, especially the former. The G4500, with its fiberglass roof, wouldn't get corroded at all. I'm guessing that this, along with the fuel economy, could have convinced Greyhound into the rebuilds.

Unfortunately, GLC is still operating white G4500s a lot and have recently applied new decals to them, as seen on recent photos. The old dog decals were replaced with new ones. GLC appears to have no replacements for the G4500s, even though drivers loathe them.


----------



## rickycourtney

I'm sorry... I just doubt that Greyhound did any heavy overhauls to the G4500... at least nothing to the level the 102DL3 got.

Again, I believe Greyhound simply picked the 175 best G4500 units, did some much needed maintenance, installed power outlets and Wi-Fi, resurfaced the seats and gave them a fresh coat of paint.

I think a lot of the "improvements" you see on the G4500 come from the fact that they finally got a lot maintenance had been deferred when Greyhound was considering retiring them all (why spend money on a bus you're just going to send to the scrap yard).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Then, uh, perhaps the big question would be: why did Greyhound suddenly decide to keep the G4500s instead of retiring them? And also, if the G4500 problems were caused by deferred maintenance, why were they bad from the beginning? Looking back to GTE posts in 2001, some people were already spewing hate on them and by 2002, the G4500s were the topic of the day, with many haters and a few trying to defend them while others were dumbfounded at Greyhound's continued G4500 orders.

In fact, Greyhound's parent at the time, Laidlaw, had gone bankrupt in 2001, and Greyhound likely could not afford anything else that was even close in capability to the G4500. They might have been able to afford Van Hools, but the G4500 "paper capabilities" are on-par with the H3-45.

I'll have to say, the ex-Americanos DL3s I rode on did get some upgrades but were not rebuilt. Most of the passengers probably didn't care except for the white scheme on the outside. Could Greyhound have done the same to the G4500s except with the addition of the new livery? Yeah, I guess they could have. I'm not sure how much it would be to install a new stairwell and steering axle.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound Canada is currently running a special Vancouver-Calgary one-way overnight Limited to handle extra passenger loads. Vancouver-Calgary is completely sold out to the last seat on every run tomorrow.

Attached is a screenshot of the run.

I wonder if GLC will consider making this a daily service, or at least run it daily in the summer. Maybe they will run a daytime version, too. The overnight Limited is a fast ride, but the passengers are missing some of the best scenery in Canada!

January 2nd, 2015 GLC 5620 Extra Limited VAN-CGY.pdf


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Remember this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15981113038/in/pool-northamericanmotorcoach/. 

I found two interior shots and I was very surprised to find that it has a lavatory and Amaya A2-TEN seating.

Interior shots:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16167797612/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16167797972/sizes/l. 

I wonder if Greyhound will consider ordering Amaya A2-TEN now or maybe Torino G Plus. Looks like no more transit agencies will be ordering American Seating 2095. Of course, I hope Greyhound will order National 4210SB10 with winged headrests. This is the improved version of the old Nationals and meets the highest FMVSS. I tried out an old 4210S and found it to be more comfortable than the 4210A, which was the old standard National. The 4210SB10 also has true winged headrests available.

Also, Peter Pan's new weird-looking D4500CT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15388134743.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Remember this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15981113038/in/pool-northamericanmotorcoach/.
> 
> I found two interior shots and I was very surprised to find that it has a lavatory and Amaya A2-TEN seating.
> 
> Interior shots:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16167797612/sizes/l
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16167797972/sizes/l.


To my understanding, NJT specs lavatories on their coaches that will be uses on very long routes.
Oh and those headlights look sharp!



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I wonder if Greyhound will consider ordering Amaya A2-TEN now or maybe Torino G Plus.


They'd be crazy not to look at every available option.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looks like no more transit agencies will be ordering American Seating 2095.


Why do you say that? If a transit agency is exercising options on another agency's order, it can still specify whatever seating it wishes.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, Peter Pan's new weird-looking D4500CT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15388134743.


Said it before, I'll say it again: Peter Pan's livery is just AWFUL.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I definitely share your dislike of the Peter Pan livery! About the seats, American Seating 2095 doesn't meet the latest FMVSS so it will have to go out of production sooner or later, sharing the fare of the Patriot PT, which is a lot more comfortable. Sooner or later, transit agencies will have to choose between the same seats in commuter coaches that the private sector has available to them.

Those headlights do look sharp, I'm not sure about the entire coach, though. The LED headlights and big headsign don't really mix well with the silversides and framed windows.

As far as seating goes, I think the Big Three (American, Amaya, National) are offering:


American Seating Premier LS
Amaya A2-TEN
Amaya Torino G/G Plus
National 4210AB10
National 4210SB10
Of those, I've not tried out the newer Amayas yet, but both Nationals would kick the American Seating down the toilet. Amongst the Nationals, "S" is better than the "A" and is extremely ergonomic. "S" also has the most recline in the industry. I've only tried out the old unbelted versions, but the belted version should not be that different.


----------



## rickycourtney

Back to the wheelchair lift discussion... check out what National Express uses over in the UK.



When a wheelchair is secured, only 1 seating position is eliminated and the passenger using a wheelchair also gets back support and increased containment in a crash. In the case of National Express they have 50 seats, so when a wheelchair is used there are 48 seats + 1 wheelchair. That way they can book 49 passengers and never worry about overbooking.
The only downside I can see to the front door lift system is that you can't slope the front few rows of seats (which is kind of a gimmick in my opinion).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Great idea, though I don't know if the doors on MCIs and Prevosts are wide enough for those wheelchair lifts to be used. Also, MCI and Prevost store the spare tire behind the front bumper, which means they will possibly block out the space that National Express puts the lift in.

I was looking through the Internet Archive for MCI and found that their late-model G4500 has a similar interior to Greyhound's blue G4500. After the G4500 failed miserably, MCI switched production to Winnipeg, where engineers found many design flaws. These engineers redesigned the G4500 based on the J4500 and released a prototype. Greyhound rejected the design and no one else wanted to take the risk of ordering it.

Now it appears that Greyhound has modified 175 of the the existing Sahagun-built G4500s to the standard of the prototype redesigned Winnipeg-built G4500 and they seem to be performing well. These are basically J4500s.

Here's the staircase (if the picture works): https://web.archive.org/web/20041227094325/http://www.mcicoach.com/morePhotos/passenger21.htm.

You can see it's not spiral and is different from the old G4500 staircase.

Edit: You know, I think MCI might have done the modifications for Greyhound. Perhaps Greyhound won a settlement in the lawsuit that stipulated that MCI modify all their G4500s to the J4500 standards at no cost to Greyhound. This would explain why Greyhound suddenly cancelled G4500 retirement and started painting them blue, and it would also explain why Greyhound released nothing about the G4500 refurb contract.


----------



## Train2104

rickycourtney said:


> To my understanding, NJT specs lavatories on their coaches that will be uses on very long routes.


From what I understand, the lavatories are only available for public use on the 319 (NYC-AC-Cape May Express) and one other route out of Atlantic City. Some of the longest routes they run (313/315/317) don't use them, since their primary market is local travel.


----------



## mightyjoe1201

Moving the wheelchair lift to the front door may be something m.c.I. and prevost engineers could consider for future bus models. It would make it easier for the driver. Only problem I see is that there is not enough room in the front to turn a chair to get it into the seating area.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

There should be enough room in the Prevosts, which don't have the depressed aisle in the front. It would be impossible to put into any D-unit because the door is only 24" wide, the staircase is even narrower, and the aisle is depressed at the front. The Prevosts have 30" wide doors IIRC. The J might be able to accommodate it with the wide spiral staircase, the E and G also have wide staircases. But all three have the depressed aisle at the front.

Wonder if the NJT 316 uses lavatories. Do much people use 319 for New York City-Atlantic City or do most people use Greyhound or Academy? 317 Philadelphia-Ashbury Park is a local, I know, but it take 3:50 to complete with a MCI D4000. I really don't think 317 will ever need a D4500.


----------



## rickycourtney

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Moving the wheelchair lift to the front door may be something m.c.I. and prevost engineers could consider for future bus models. It would make it easier for the driver.


 Prevost and MCI would almost certainly need to redesign the entire front end of their coaches to make a front door wheelchair lift work. The coach would need to have a longer front overhang, a plug door instead of sedan (overrated in my opinion), reposition the spare (or just remove it) and right angle steps instead of curved (nice, but not necessary). All can be done and I can't think of a reason not to do it.



mightyjoe1201 said:


> Only problem I see is that there is not enough room in the front to turn a chair to get it into the seating area.


Yeah the space is tight, there's definitely no room to turn around. The videos I've seen show passengers using a wheelchair boarding "backwards" and wheeling back into the securement area. In my opinion, it's a little awkward, but worth the trade off considering only 1 seat is removed when a wheelchair is secured.
Also I would think that most operators would want space to secure 2 wheelchairs, not just 1.


----------



## mightyjoe1201

Boarding chairs backwards is actually the proper way. It depends on the operator for how many chairs they feel they could handle and also how often they get chairs. I could see losing maybe four seats for two chairs. Depending on how they configure the set up for the tie downs. I loose six seats on the transit buses I drive when I get two chairs cause if how the transit seating is designed.

I don't think a front door lift would require removing the spare tire. Maybe moving it some cause you can get a lift that stows under the front steps. You would loose some storage space for the electronics and hydraulics for it tho.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was looking through the Internet Archive for MCI and found that their late-model G4500 has a similar interior to Greyhound's blue G4500. After the G4500 failed miserably, MCI switched production to Winnipeg, where engineers found many design flaws. These engineers redesigned the G4500 based on the J4500 and released a prototype. Greyhound rejected the design and no one else wanted to take the risk of ordering it.


[citation needed]



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now it appears that Greyhound has modified 175 of the the existing Sahagun-built G4500s to the standard of the prototype redesigned Winnipeg-built G4500 and they seem to be performing well. These are basically J4500s.


Calling a refurbished G4500s "basically J4500s" is a very bold statement. Again, [citation needed].



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here's the staircase (if the picture works): https://web.archive.org/web/20041227094325/http://www.mcicoach.com/morePhotos/passenger21.htm.
> 
> You can see it's not spiral and is different from the old G4500 staircase.


I've never seen an old G4500 staircase so I have no point of reference, but it looks spiral to me... just not as much as a J4500.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Edit: You know, I think MCI might have done the modifications for Greyhound. Perhaps Greyhound won a settlement in the lawsuit that stipulated that MCI modify all their G4500s to the J4500 standards at no cost to Greyhound. This would explain why Greyhound suddenly cancelled G4500 retirement and started painting them blue, and it would also explain why Greyhound released nothing about the G4500 refurb contract.


A settlement of 12 years after the first G4500 rolled off the production line? I doubt it.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Americanos has some late-model 2004 G4500s that were completed in Winnipeg, their VINs start with 2M9XSMDA which means a Winnipeg, Canada-produced G4500 motorcoach with CAT engines. They also have some 2M9XSMPA which have Detroit engines. These VINs are listed on Texas DMV.

They are different from all the other G4500s which are 3BMXSMPA, 3BMASMRA, or 3BMXSMWA, which mean Sahagun, Mexico-produced G4500 motorcoach with various different engines.

The G4500 prototype released from Winnipeg and listed on the archived 2005 MCI website has a different staircase (less spiral), wheelbase (336" vs 331"), and lavatory (E/J lavatory module with rounded door) from the Sahagun G4500s. MCI obviously did produce some G4500s from Winnipeg and it was obviously different from the Sahagun G4500s, otherwise at least the wheelbase should have been the same. This fits right in with GTE sources that say MCI engineers discovered design flaws and fixed them by replacing the flawed components with J4500 components. The suspension was one of the big problems with the Sahagun G4500, causing fires and crashes, so MCI, to fix those problems, would have put on a new suspension that may have then increased the wheelbase a few inches.

MCI went on tour with the new G4500 prototype from Winnipeg and tried to sell it, but that obviously didn't work out since the new G4500 never entered true mass-production. The only way MCI could have tried to save the G4500 was to put J4500 components into it, there was no other components that would fit better and improve the model as quickly and cheaply as possible.

Greyhound went on lawsuit with MCI in 2003 and I don't think the lawsuit was resolved until 2009. That's why Greyhound ordered Prevosts in 2008 and 2009, then ordered MCIs in 2010. According to roster records, Greyhound also retired some G4500s in 2009, when some were sold, but halted the retirements for no apparent reason. This suggest that, in 2010, as part of the G4500 lawsuit settlement, MCI would have agreed to fix the G4500 problems in units that could still be saved. MCI probably did that after Greyhound threatened ordering Prevosts again in 2010.

Greyhound probably delayed sending the G4500s to MCI for the rebuild because they all had wheelchair lifts and new ADA regs were coming soon. At least 12 G4500s were reportedly rebuilt by 2012. Then large numbers were rebuilt in 2013 after they were relieved in line-haul service by the new D4505s that came that year.

To save the G4500s, the easiest thing for MCI to do was rebuild the G4500 with J4500 components. They have similar frameworks and MCI had already tested something like this with the Winnipeg G4500 prototype. So MCI would have essentially turned the white G4500s into blue J4500s in G4500 shells. The Blue G4500 rides just like an old J4500 and drivers have said that both turn poorly. Because the G4500 is made of fiberglass over a stainless steel frame, corrosion would be near-zero, so a 12-year-old G4500 shell is pretty much the same as a brand-new G4500 shell. The E/J4500 has the same fiberglass-over-stainless build.

It's an easy, cheap, long-term, and quick solution for the G4500 disaster.


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## rickycourtney

Okay... I don't doubt that MCI attempted to make improvements to the G4500 when it brought production of the coach to Winnipeg. But how do you know that MCI did the upgrades to the G4500 as a part of a lawsuit settlement (which are usually private)?

Also, has every blue G4500 you've been on had the J4500 style lavatory or the less curved staircase? I'm not sure why they would make those changes.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Okay... I don't doubt that MCI attempted to make improvements to the G4500 when it brought production of the coach to Winnipeg. But how do you know that MCI did the upgrades to the G4500 as a part of a lawsuit settlement (which are usually private)?
> 
> Also, has every blue G4500 you've been on had the J4500 style lavatory or the less curved staircase? I'm not sure why they would make those changes.


No, I don't know that MCI did the rebuilds, that was just a theory. I just know that MCI _could _have done the rebuilds since the blue ones looks a lot like the Winnipeg-built G4500.

I know why they would makes the lavatory changes; the old G4500 lavatory was always falling apart and smelling up the whole bus, giving it the infamous name "Dirty Dog". Not to mention the lavatory door had a horrible latch and would often swing open while the vehicle was in motion. This doesn't happen in the Blue G4500 anymore, and if it did, then Greyhound would have wasted all the money into the blue ones because nobody wants to ride a smelly puke-inducing motorcoach with a broken lavatory, no matter the Wi-Fi, legroom, or power outlets.

As for the less-curved staircase, perhaps the old more-curved ones were improperly assembled in Sahagun. After all, making spiral staircases isn't always easy AFAIK. Or perhaps the old step tread was simply too damaged and they wanted to replace the staircase without custom-ordering spiral staircases for the G4500, so they just slapped it together, resulting in less curvature. I remember the old steps were smoother whereas the new ones have more tread.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound Canada #1125, a 2000 MCI 102DL3 rebuilt unit, crashed today near Jasper while running Schedule 5046 Prince George-Edmonton. #1125 was apparently a standard (non-VIP) Edmonton-based DL3 with enclosed parcel racks but no wheelchair lift. It was pulling an old white pup trailer, which extends the length of the 45.42-footer to approximately 62.5 feet.

The causes of the crash are unknown. All I can say is that it is fortunate that nobody was killed and hopefully nobody was seriously injured.

Article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/greyhound-bus-crash-near-jasper-sends-multiple-people-to-hospital-1.2890559.


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## rickycourtney

So what did you doing on your trip to Southern California? What did you think of LA Metro's buses, the Red Line and City of Santa Clarita Transit? What do you think of all the historic Greyhound buses? Did you buy a TAP card or did you just use cash on each bus?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Will post a trip report after all.


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## rickycourtney

Looking at your pictures on Flickr and those old coaches are gorgeous. Can't wait to see more pictures.

But something amused me... that 102DL3 you rode on is lettered with "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC". Gotta love the poor grammar printed large for everyone to see. Also to that end... why print it so large and place it in such a prominent location?

Compare that to BoltBus which goes to great lengths to hide the "OPERATOR: GREYHOUND LINES INC." lettering.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This time your link doesn't work. But yes, I know what you mean, I really don't know why Americanos did that though. Every single Americanos says "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC (etc, etc)".

Nobody seems to really care when it's a plain-white DL3, but in Sacramento, I saw an Americanos-livery G4500 boarding for San Francisco. Many passengers were confused and didn't know what to do. They tried to get on Greyhound #86352, the D4505 to Reno, then had to be redirected onto the correct bus by the driver. #86352 was correctly signed for Reno, but the passengers didn't seem to notice. The Americanos apparently had no destination sign.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> This time your link doesn't work. But yes, I know what you mean, I really don't know why Americanos did that though. Every single Americanos says "OPERATE BY: AMERICANOS USA LLC (etc, etc)".
> 
> Nobody seems to really care when it's a plain-white DL3, but in Sacramento, I saw an Americanos-livery G4500 boarding for San Francisco. Many passengers were confused and didn't know what to do. They tried to get on Greyhound #86352, the D4505 to Reno, then had to be redirected onto the correct bus by the driver. #86352 was correctly signed for Reno, but the passengers didn't seem to notice. The Americanos apparently had no destination sign.


Well that just goes to show you the power of strong branding (and Greyhound finally has a strong brand for the first time in decades with the neoclassical livery). Passengers didn't look at the destination sign, they looked at the brand. The passengers saw an Americanos bus and a Greyhound bus and approached the Greyhound bus since they bought a Greyhound ticket.

Of course that's the problem with using anything other than a Greyhound bus on a Greyhound route.

That's why it's probably not a bad idea for Greyhound to have a bunch of plain white buses. If they really wanted to overachieve they could make up sets of magnetic signs that say Greyhound, BoltBus, Americanos, etc., stick the appropriate one on the side/front and store the rest on board the bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound's brand has always been easily recognizable, but its reputation has been bad since the big strike of 1983. I know Greyhound has a problem with using a non-Greyhound on a Greyhound schedule, but passengers would be even more confused if it was a Jefferson unit on a Jefferson schedule and they bought their ticket from Greyhound.

That's why caused the "night wait incident" in Des Moines after Greyhound had already pulled out of the city and all surrounding areas.

I don't know what to say about the destination sign, whether is has become useless or what. It's a bit disheartening to see the passengers take no notice of the destination sign "RENO, NV", opposite direction of San Francisco.


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## mightyjoe1201

I can say confidently it's because people don't read. All they see is a bus, they don't bother to look at the sign. I get that myself. As a matter of fact, I have people that will ask if I'm going to New York, etc. They can't tell I'm driving a transit bus. Its universal on this country.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wait, Joe, is this your bus? http://citizensvoice.com/polopoly_fs/1.1497992!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/image.jpg.

I really don't get why people don't read the sign and risk getting on the wrong bus when there's a bright orange LED sign at the front showing the opposite direction they're wanting to go. And apparently, a bigger destination sign wouldn't help either.


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## mightyjoe1201

I don't know if it's ny bus. The link isn't working.

Its because people are too much in a hurry to look up. A sign could be put rite in front of them telling them where their bus is going and they'd walk rite into it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

It's a Gillig Low Floor #1201 on Route 80.

Transit riders are often in a hurry, but Greyhound boards early and they should have known better.


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## mightyjoe1201

Oh dear God. Depending on how old the pic is its probable me. I've been on route 90 driving a phantom for about two months now.

People are the same no matter what. I've watched them not knowing what greyhound was theirs until it was announced even with the signs showing its destination. Hell, most people can't tell you if they got on a greyhound or a trailways. Unfortunately we are the odd balls that pay attention to that stuff. Lol


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## mightyjoe1201

Were you able to see any advertising signs? It can help to let you know if it was me or not. Our signs changed last the same time I started covering for another route


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## Swadian Hardcore

It's May 31st, 2013, apparently at a transit center, and it says "80 LAUREL MALL".

So I found this J4500 controls vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMoCjNr2FBQ. What do you think of the controls? Some people seem to not like them. 

First Canada is driving a new J4500 around which has no fleet numbers and was reported a demonstrator. Looks real nice even in plain white: https://www.flickr.com/photos/greatcoinzprod/16075040322/sizes/l.

Really don't know why it's "First Student Canada", can't imagine a J4500 being used as a school bus. Perhaps GLC will order some of those since First Group's annual report says they will return GLC to "sustained profitability" through the addition of more express service and improved package express service.

I've never really understood why the J4500 has been bestseller for so long. Don't know much about it and haven't ridden more than few.


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, that would probably have been me. Its at the Church Street Station here in Hazleton. We are on one side and trailways is on the other


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## Swadian Hardcore

Got some pics of Greyhound's J4500 #6992 off GTE. Courtesy [email protected]. Greyhound refurbished all the J4500s and the single 102EL3 they got second-hand, apparently from Coach America for dirt-cheap after that company's bankruptcy. Greyhound removed the lids from the parcel racks, which in this case, is probably a good idea because of how they open inward. With the lids, the J4500 racks can't accommodate more hard size than the D4505, but with no lids, the improvement should be noticeable.

Don't that headsign say "CHICAGO"? I wonder where Greyhound uses these. #6665 is their 102EL3, a 1998. The rest are 2003 and 2005 J4500s, #6987-6994.


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## rickycourtney

Again... it's all about branding, branding, branding...


Great example here in Seattle where we have a multi-colored bus fleet. King County Metro's "primary" fleet is composed of buses of all shapes and sizes painted dark blue, dark green or teal. The colors mean nothing and they are used interchangeably.












King County Metro also runs a smaller fleet of special buses painted in red for RapidRide routes.





But when a spare bus is needed it's usually pulled from the "primary" fleet putting a blue/green/teal bus on a route where the passengers are expecting a red bus.





The headsigns are exactly the same (down to the special "box design" for RapidRide route letters), but without fail passengers won't get on because they are looking for a red bus.

People have no problem getting on any color bus (blue/green/teal) when they expect to, they also don't have a problem telling the between the different lines (C, D and E). But when people expect to ride RapidRide, they look for a RapidRide bus, not a normal King County Metro bus.

When people expect to ride Greyhound, they look for a Greyhound bus, not an Americanos bus. That's the power of branding.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They ought to repaint the Americanos units, then. I'm not sure to which extent those plain-white units would confused passengers.

What about that J4500?


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## rickycourtney

They have been repainting the Americanos buses with that strange livery that looks like Greyhound's neoclassic livery but with Americanos logos.

The seats on that J4500 look really comfortable... but other than that... I'm not impressed. I've saw the exterior shots long ago on Wikipedia and I think the neoclassic livery looks very awkward on the J4500 (like it has a big blue forehead). On top of that the design of the J4500 looks very dated at this point, in my opinion.

Personally I think the H3-45 wears the neoclassic livery a lot better and looks less dated (despite being older):







By the way... feel free to share those pictures with the folks over on GTE. I don't feel like signing up for an account but I'm sure they would get a kick out of seeing a blue H3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, the old J4500 looks really ugly in that blue livery. It should have a black forehead instead of the blue forehead. I also don't like those headlights and really dislike the big straight bar of clearance lights above the windshield but below the top of the forehead.

This is probably the best-looking J4500 livery: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/brewster/brewster_297-3.jpg. 

To be honest with you, I think the old J4500 looks ugly in any livery and is only somewhat better with a black forehead to try and "hide" the hideous forehead. I don't know what MCI was thinking with that design, they should have done this from the start: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8246644128/sizes/l.

That H3-45 looks awesome in the blue livery as does the G4500. I'm not sure how the performance of these models stacks up to each other, especially with the introduction of the new Restyled J4500 that is reportedly a big step above the old J4500. I also don't understand why the J4500 has been bestseller for 10 years and running despite not have clear advantages over its impressive competitors.


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## rickycourtney

The design of the J4500 was largely copied from the 102EL3/E4500.

The E series was designed in partnership with DesignworksUSA (a BMW company) and when it first hit the market in 1996/1997 I'm sure the design looked great.

When the J series was launched in 2001 the mission was to create a coach that was as attractive as the E series but less complex and less expensive. So MCI basically copied the design of the E series, which lowered the development costs of the J series and gave them a bus that was already regarded as good looking.

But there was also an unintended side effect of copying the design of the E series... the J series cannibalized its sales. Most coach operators switched to buying the J series since they could get a coach that looked just like the E, for a lot less money.

I think the lower profit margins also has a lot to do with it took so long to redesign the J series. Bus designs seem to last around 10 years (not 4/5 like cars), but since the design on the J series was already 5 years old when it first hit the streets it was 15 years old by the time it was redesigned.

Oh and by the way, MCI teamed up with DesignworksUSA again for this latest redesign of the J series.


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## Swadian Hardcore

But you know how we don't like the J4500's big forehead? The E4500 didn't have that forehead. I think the E looks better than the J because it doesn't have that forehead. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10503398214/sizes/l.

In terms of technology, many operators reportedly found the E to be a money hole because of its electronic suspension. The E also had electronic driver shades, disc brakes, and a power-steering tag axle. The J originally only had manual driver shades, drum brakes, and a fixed tag axle, though of course, a trailing tag like the DL3 was offered as an option. Now the E is out of production and the J is available with those electronic shades and disc brakes, plus IFS which was never offered before.

What I see is a weird situation where the E created the market, but got nudged out by the J that then evolved to be more or less like the E.

I also heard a rumor that the reason the J has a forehead is because the band of glass above the windshield on the E kept dislodging.

Can't really understand why the J4500 is bestseller and has been for such a long time.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Can't really understand why the J4500 is bestseller and has been for such a long time.


Again, coach operators liked the J series since it looks nice (just like the old E), it was relatively inexpensive (compared to Prevost or Setra), built decently (unlike Van Hool's) and since its so popular, it's easy to find someone to repair it. 
That being said if I was going to buy a coach I'd go with a Prevost or maybe a Setra.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I haven't ridden more than one or two H3-45s, so since you've ridden both the H3-45 and J4500, how do you think they compare to the J4500? I know you love the X3-45s, but how do you think they fit in against the H3-45 and J4500, from a passenger standpoint?

I guess it's pointless to throw a DL3 into the debate because it's out of production and its successor, the D4505, is just not that great.

Also, according to this article: http://www.metro-magazine.com/bus/news/292983/prevost-begins-production-of-n-y-mta-buses-in-plattsburgh, 300 X3-45s (with Buy America) cost $164,000,000, which would be $546,666 per unit, about the same as the H3-45 that Indian Trails ordered, which were $3,800,000 for 7 units, $542,857 per unit (without Buy America). On GTE, I heard that Buy America compliance will increase the cost of a motorcoach approximately $50,000.

In the case of the NYCT order, Prevost outbid MCI. Unfortunately, I was unable to find price figures for NYC Transit's latest D4500CT order. Anybody got some?


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## rickycourtney

For what purpose? Intercity travel or charter/tour service?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I mean, which one is more comfortable?


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## rickycourtney

Well all the H3-45's and J4500's I've been on have been the older versions. I thought both models were pretty comfortable, but the H3-45 was a bit more comfortable than the J4500.

But here's the thing... your perception of comfort has a lot to do with the seats. Amtrak California owns a fleet of D4505's and I always found them to be very comfortable, I would actually rank them between the H3-45 and J4500. On the other hand I found Greyhound's D4505 to be a torture chamber on wheels.

I'd like to try riding an X3-45 with better seats... because I always found them to ride very comfortably even with Greyhound's awful seats.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> The E series was designed in partnership with DesignworksUSA (a BMW company) and when it first hit the market in 1996/1997 I'm sure the design looked great.
> 
> Oh and by the way, MCI teamed up with DesignworksUSA again for this latest redesign of the J series.


Perhaps MCI should "fire" DesignworksUSA, and seek out the services of Raymond Loewy Associates (of Scenicruiser and PRR GG-1 fame).... 

Edit: Never mind....I just searched the web, and apparently, they sadly no longer exist.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

DesignWorksUSA also designed the D4505, no wonder it looks so much like the J4500.

I agree, the D4505 is a torture chamber on wheels, but only the bad ones. The good ones are alright, but the good ones are few and bar between.

How about H3-45 compared to X3-45? For passengers? Have you ever ridden an E? I rode one in Hawaii and thought it was great.

Edit: I think the E depends a lot of maintenance because of that expensive electronic suspension.


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## railiner

I prefer the X-3. Best riding coach on the road, since the demise of the Eagle.....best for driver's, as well, IMHO.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I heard the E, if maintained properly, can ride better than the X, because of the electronic suspension. But _only_ if it is maintained properly, and as I know, it's usually not.

Unfortunately, the X weighs as much as the H but carries less cargo/luggage, so most operators would likely buy the H instead. After all, a smooth ride doesn't make money. The X is selling about the same as the H only because of major orders from Greyhound and NYC Transit for use in the northeast, where the big tall H is probably unsuitable.

Edit: Here's the Greyhound boneyard near Langley, BC: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/16280918486/sizes/k/.

There's a White G4500 and a White D4505.


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## railiner

I don't really know too much about "electronic suspension", but I believe all buses with air suspension have some form or other of it....

It involves sensors that automatically keep the height of each suspended part of the coach at a preset level. It may also have manual controls for doing things like 'kneeling', lowering the coach to get under overhead tight clearances, raise the front or rear or both to clear an obstacle, or transfer weight from the tag axle to the drive axle when there is loss of traction accelerating from a stop, or climbing a hill. In modern coaches the ECU's tie them in with traction control, and skid control for optimum traction.

There may be more to it, but I don't have that knowledge.....

The main difference between the E and the original J, was the J did not have the steerable tag axle, and certain electronic functions (not sure of which)....there were minor differences in the dashboards, and exterior styling details.....

I don't think they rode any differently....


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Unfortunately, the X weighs as much as the H but carries less cargo/luggage, so most operators would likely buy the H instead. After all, a smooth ride doesn't make money. The X is selling about the same as the H only because of major orders from Greyhound and NYC Transit for use in the northeast, where the big tall H is probably unsuitable.


The X is a purpose built intercity coach. Outside of Greyhound and transit agencies, most US operators don't want or need that. For most US operators their "bread and butter" is tours and charters, a business for which the H is better suited.


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## Swadian Hardcore

OTOH, what is preventing the X from being used in charters? Curb appeal? It doesn't look much different from the H to the "untrained eye" and probably looks better than the J. The opposite is: why can't the H3-45 be used for line-haul as well as the X3-45?

If the X3-45 was a purpose-built intercity coach, I wonder what Obama and Justin Bieber is doing in their X3-45 (or other X-series) motorhomes. Of course it's a good intercity coach, but it's also a good motorhome for all I know (and I don't really know).

As for curb appeal, every time I show someone (non-bus fans) the pre-Restyle J4500, they say it's UGLY, UGLY, REALLY UGLY, and UGLY. Not even exaggerating.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the X weighs as much as the H but carries less cargo/luggage, so most operators would likely buy the H instead. After all, a smooth ride doesn't make money. The X is selling about the same as the H only because of major orders from Greyhound and NYC Transit for use in the northeast, where the big tall H is probably unsuitable.
> 
> 
> 
> The X is a purpose built intercity coach. Outside of Greyhound and transit agencies, most US operators don't want or need that. For most US operators their "bread and butter" is tours and charters, a business for which the H is better suited.
Click to expand...

Ricky is correct, but I will add one other detail....as Swadian refers to above, the vehicle also serves a dual-purpose for conversion/entertainer buses. The reason this model bus is better for both intercity and the entertainer/conversion type service is because it rides lower to the ground - it provides the best "ride" for passengers.

This information was provided to me by a Prevost rep at ABA last week.


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## metrolinecoach111

metrolinecoach111 said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the X weighs as much as the H but carries less cargo/luggage, so most operators would likely buy the H instead. After all, a smooth ride doesn't make money. The X is selling about the same as the H only because of major orders from Greyhound and NYC Transit for use in the northeast, where the big tall H is probably unsuitable.
> 
> 
> 
> The X is a purpose built intercity coach. Outside of Greyhound and transit agencies, most US operators don't want or need that. For most US operators their "bread and butter" is tours and charters, a business for which the H is better suited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ricky is correct, but I will add one other detail....as Swadian refers to above, the vehicle also serves a dual-purpose for conversion/entertainer buses. The reason this model bus is better for both intercity and the entertainer/conversion type service is because it rides lower to the ground - it provides the best "ride" for passengers and among the easiest handling for drivers (as Railiner alluded to above).
> 
> This information was provided to me by a Prevost rep at ABA last week.
Click to expand...


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's where I'm confused. I thought the H3-45 was supposed to be "high-end", but if it doesn't ride as well, why is it so popular? And if the X3-45 handles so well, why don't charter companies use it more often? You could argue the H3-45 has more luggage capacity for the same weight, but I thought luggage capacity would be more useful for intercity than charters. After all, charters don't carry Package Express.

Seems like the X3-45 should be preferred in densely-populated areas and the H3-45 in loosely-populated areas? Because there's a lot of H3-45s running remote intercity routes in Canada and a lot of X3-45s running in the packed Northeast USA.

Am I remotely correct or completely wrong if I think that the X3-45 is better for short-distance, dense-population, high-frequency and the H3-45 is better for long-distance, loose-population, low-frequency?

Edit: I also heard that MCI was touting its J4500's excellent unmatched fuel economy at ABA. Do you think this is complete BS or actually makes sense?


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's where I'm confused. I thought the H3-45 was supposed to be "high-end", but if it doesn't ride as well, why is it so popular? And if the X3-45 handles so well, why don't charter companies use it more often? You could argue the H3-45 has more luggage capacity for the same weight, but I thought luggage capacity would be more useful for intercity than charters. After all, charters don't carry Package Express.
> 
> Seems like the X3-45 should be preferred in densely-populated areas and the H3-45 in loosely-populated areas? Because there's a lot of H3-45s running remote intercity routes in Canada and a lot of X3-45s running in the packed Northeast USA.
> 
> Am I remotely correct or completely wrong if I think that the X3-45 is better for short-distance, dense-population, high-frequency and the H3-45 is better for long-distance, loose-population, low-frequency?
> 
> Edit: I also heard that MCI was touting its J4500's excellent unmatched fuel economy at ABA. Do you think this is complete BS or actually makes sense?


Here's the thing - they both ride well, it's just that the X rides just a bit better because it's lower to the ground and reduces wear and tear because of it (to a degree). The H is great for charters, particularly overnights because of the better sightlines (you're riding higher off the ground), and the luggage capacity. You also have to remember that it also depends on the carrier and their maintenance team and price tolerance (the H costs more upfront).

As for the J - yes, I saw the brochure that mentions this and spoke with a dealer on the floor. The unit on display was the brand new J for Trans-Bridge in PA. Like all things, it's all about how the carrier takes care of its equipment and the manufacturer's servicing to maintain such standards.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's why I was thinking that the H would be more for longer distance and lower frequencies through area with lower population. Over long distances, the bigger windows and higher deck of the H could make passengers more comfortable. The extra luggage capacity could haul more package express; after all, Greyhound's New York City-Los Angeles is reportedly a daily Blue G because of package express backlogs. And longer-distance passengers seem to carry more baggage anyways.

The X3-45 can probably take more wear and tear so it would be better for intense short-distance turn-and-burns and the handling would make it useful in highly-populated areas. The slightly better ride quality is probably for useful over short distances whereas the better sightlines of the H would be better over long distances.

Just my theory. Is there anywhere in the West where I can ride a H3-45 in scheduled service? Last time I rode one was on my last trip to Los Angeles before the December 2014 trip. That would have been in 2002 IIRC. Wouldn't mind riding an E4500, either.

I heard on GTE that the "fuel efficiency" MCI is advertising for the J4500 is unnoticeable and that anybody thinking otherwise would be thinking too good to be true, which is basically the nice way of saying MCI is spewing BS about J4500 fuel efficiency. I understand how the fuel efficiency depends on the carrier and maintenance, among other things, but I think what MCI is talking about is that if the same company were to run the J4500 alongside a competing model on the same services with the same standards of maintenance, MCI claims the J4500 would beat its competitors on fuel efficiency.

As they say here: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2015-01-14-e-rating.htm.

And, in response to this, some people are basically saying it's BS.


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## railiner

Both the X-3 and the H-3 can be used for any purpose. I don't think either one has an inherent reliability advantage for a specific use. The main difference is the ride height.

Being taller, the H-3 will naturally 'roll' more, and passenger's sitting higher off the ground will feel it more. To control the roll of the H-3 to a manageable level, its suspension may have to be "stiffened" somewhat. That is even more true in a double-deck coach, which tend to have a hard ride. On the railroad, cars have to fit within a "cant deficiency" parameter for a particular track profile, to [revent the tilted top of the car from fouling the adjacent track, when negotiating a curve. The lower height will also mean less buffeting from strong crosswinds....

The superior cargo space of the H-3 is useful for line runs, and many charters--especially airport transfer's, or multiday charter's whose passenger's will average more baggage than a typical line run, except during college breaks or returns.

And for certain types of charter's....the X-3 is better, especially for senior citizens on day trips, that have no baggage, but do have a difficult time climbing stairs.

And they are also better for conference shuttle charter's, (which is Greyhound's main source of charter business), as less steps mean quicker loading/unloading.

The lower height of the X-3 will get them into many places that the H-3 won't.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OTOH, what is preventing the X from being used in charters? Curb appeal? It doesn't look much different from the H to the "untrained eye" and probably looks better than the J. The opposite is: why can't the H3-45 be used for line-haul as well as the X3-45?


There's nothing preventing an X from being used for tours and charters and conversely there's nothing preventing an H from being used for scheduled intercity routes.
The X is better for intercity routes because it has an ultra long wheelbase and lower overall height making it ride better as it travels long distances on highways.

The H is better for tours because it has higher passenger deck and larger windows for better sightseeing and charters because it has those huge luggage bays.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> That's why I was thinking that the H would be more for longer distance and lower frequencies through area with lower population. Over long distances, the bigger windows and higher deck of the H could make passengers more comfortable. The extra luggage capacity could haul more package express; after all, Greyhound's New York City-Los Angeles is reportedly a daily Blue G because of package express backlogs. And longer-distance passengers seem to carry more baggage anyways.
> 
> The X3-45 can probably take more wear and tear so it would be better for intense short-distance turn-and-burns and the handling would make it useful in highly-populated areas. The slightly better ride quality is probably for useful over short distances whereas the better sightlines of the H would be better over long distances.


You're approaching this from the perspective of a passenger, not from the perspective of Greyhound.
Sure bigger windows, a higher deck and better sightlines are great for passengers, but they don't matter to Greyhound. They aren't giving you a tour of the US, they are transporting you from point A to point B. The view along the way is an added bonus. The ultra long wheelbase and lower overall height of the X would make it better on a route of any length.

I think you're overthinking the luggage capacity issue. Greyhound allows passenger to check one piece of luggage that can't exceed 62 inches when adding the total exterior dimensions (L + W + H). That's a *HUGE* piece of luggage... roughly 4.25 cubic feet.

So lets say each of the 50 passengers onboard checks a piece of luggage of the maximum size (which would never happen) and you've used 212.5 cubic feet of the luggage compartment. If all of that was packed into an X3-45 (which has Greyhound's smallest luggage compartment at 376 cubic feet) Greyhound would still have AT LEAST 163.5 cubic feet available for packages. If the bus isn't sold out, if passengers have smaller luggage or someone doesn't bring any luggage, there will be even more space available for packages.

Honestly, Greyhound Package Express doesn't seem to be doing a lot of business here in the US. There are just too many competing carriers offering low-cost ground and air transportation to every corner of the country. It's a much different story up in Canada. Of course, routes where Greyhound is doing a lot Package Express, they will probably prefer to use those Blue G's which have a very large luggage hold.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I heard on GTE that the "fuel efficiency" MCI is advertising for the J4500 is unnoticeable and that anybody thinking otherwise would be thinking too good to be true, which is basically the nice way of saying MCI is spewing BS about J4500 fuel efficiency. I understand how the fuel efficiency depends on the carrier and maintenance, among other things, but I think what MCI is talking about is that if the same company were to run the J4500 alongside a competing model on the same services with the same standards of maintenance, MCI claims the J4500 would beat its competitors on fuel efficiency.


It seems like a weasel claim to me.Look at the Altoona tests... two buses of the same model with similar configurations can end up having different fuel efficiency results. A lot of fuel efficient comes down to the person sitting in the front-most seat.

MCI even admits that:



> "When it comes to saving fuel, studies indicate that more than 30 percent of fuel economy is influenced by driving techniques."


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're offering that Greyhound Canada cares more about luggage capacity than in the US and would thus use Blue G4500s, but they don't have a single Blue G4500 and are scrapping all their White G4500s whenever replacements are available. Only Greyhound US runs the Blue G4500s and primarily on long-distance routes, reportedly because package express backlogs on long-distance routes but not on short-distance routes. This makes sense too, because the Blue G4500s are still rare in the fleet compared to the other models.

And yes, Package Express only accounts for 9% of Greyhound's revenue, according to their financial report, though that isn't actually too bad.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You're offering that Greyhound Canada cares more about luggage capacity than in the US and would thus use Blue G4500s, but they don't have a single Blue G4500 and are scrapping all their White G4500s whenever replacements are available. Only Greyhound US runs the Blue G4500s and primarily on long-distance routes, reportedly because package express backlogs on long-distance routes but not on short-distance routes. This makes sense too, because the Blue G4500s are still rare in the fleet compared to the other models.


Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trailers to add Package Express capacity.If Greyhound Lines in the US really has such a big backlog of Package Express shipments maybe they should look at buying trailers or borrowing a few bus/trailer combinations from Greyhound Canada.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> And yes, Package Express only accounts for 9% of Greyhound's revenue, according to their financial report, though that isn't actually too bad.


Is that in North America or just in the US?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound operates primarily on the Interstates. That's where the X3-45 appears to be doing well. Those line-haul H3-45s up in Canada of various operators primarily operate on two-lane provincial highways or, at most, four-lane divided provincial highways. Their situation is the exact opposite of Greyhound routes in the Northeast, where X3-45s dominate.

Greyhound US doesn't have enough Package Express to buy trailers and the trailers would be a pain in the a$$ for the drivers.

The 9% should be for North America but I don't know if Greyhound Canada's contracted freight is also considered Package Express. Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trucks.

Also, how come Adirondack Trailways keeps buying H3-45s instead of X3-45s.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound operates primarily on the Interstates. That's where the X3-45 appears to be doing well. Those line-haul H3-45s up in Canada of various operators primarily operate on two-lane provincial highways or, at most, four-lane divided provincial highways. Their situation is the exact opposite of Greyhound routes in the Northeast, where X3-45s dominate.


And that's why



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound US doesn't have enough Package Express to buy trailers and the trailers would be a pain in the a$$ for the drivers.
> 
> The 9% should be for North America but I don't know if Greyhound Canada's contracted freight is also considered Package Express. Greyhound Canada also operates a fleet of trucks.


Since that contracted freight is considered Package Express... I would imagine the earnings from that would be rolled into the Package Express revenue.

If Greyhound published the Package Express revenue in Canada vs. US... I'm willing to bet that the numbers would be skewed heavily towards Canada. Greyhound Canada has very robust Package Express business... Greyhound Lines in the US does not. Again, in the US there are just too many competing carriers offering low-cost ground and air transportation to every corner of the country


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## Swadian Hardcore

GLC also seems to be gradually less interested in package express because they're in financial trouble (according to the same annual report) and are increasing Express and Limited services. These won't be able to pull trailers well, I assume. And GLC is cutting down on rural and remote services as well. Looks like Leach wants to make GLC just like GLI.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> GLC also seems to be gradually less interested in package express because they're in financial trouble (according to the same annual report) and are increasing Express and Limited services. These won't be able to pull trailers well, I assume. And GLC is cutting down on rural and remote services as well. Looks like Leach wants to make GLC just like GLI.


Not sure that's a bad thing.Greyhound Lines seems to be moving in a good direction (both in financial performance and in customer experience) compared to when FirstGroup first took over the company. On the other hand not much has changed with Greyhound Canada.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The idea of "less change" is clearly not working, as GLC is lagging behind GLI. GLC can't even afford new equipment and is still running old silversides 102D3s. They're also still running White G4500s because they can't afford to replace them and don't care to rebuild them. And the D4505s don't appear to be performing too well either, since #1265 was photographed getting scrapped after an unknown mishap (it didn't seem terribly damaged).

The problem is, Canadian bus ops are still too regulated. If they get deregulated, most of the rural and remote routes will go bust. If they don't deregulate, chances are GLC is going to get strangled.

In terms of customer experience, GLC isn't that far behind GLI. They don't have Painful Premiers, which is a good thing. They have similar Wi-Fi and power outlets as GLI. They also have those "VIP" seats and enclosed parcel racks on some motorcoaches. And yield management and the updated booking system. But most GLC schedules are hopelessly bogged down and obsolete unless they get ripped apart and rewritten. Toronto-Calgary should not be a milk run. I bet GLC's finances are a disaster except for the POPULAR Vancouver-Calgary route.

Oh, remember how NJT got a D4500CT with A2-TEN seats? This one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16167797972/. 

Well, its rear end is disgusting: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16103855969/. It's a CNG-powered unit, but if this is MCI's idea of the new D4500CT, then I'm highly disappointed.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, how come Adirondack Trailways keeps buying H3-45s instead of X3-45s.


Mr. Berardi, the owner, likes the H-3's better. I don't know just why....it could be he thinks their larger size gives them more "curb appeal". It could be because we had a bad experience with certain facet's of our old XL-II's....

If I could choose, I'd pick the X-3.

On the other hand, I like the fact that our entire three-company fleet will be down to just two types in a couple of years....H-3's and CO2045's (or CX45's). And yes, I wonder why he doesn't opt for the TX45, if he likes the taller coaches....It would be even better if we had just one type.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Maybe it has to do with the CX45 being cheap and possibly being the cheapest 45-footer available. Perhaps Mr. Berardi wants the best motorcoach available and the cheapest motorcoach available, and for whatever reason, he thinks the H3-45 is the best available, though it is facing some serious competition from the new J4500 which is supposedly more driver-friendly too.

Or perhaps he wants the biggest/tallest motorcoach available and the cheapest motorcoach available. ^_^

What are some problems of the XL-IIs? Would the sliding lavatory door of the H3-45 cause potential problems?

I sure hope Mr. Berardi finds out about those painful Premier seating and orders something else next time. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't get to try out Burlington's new J4500s with the A2-TEN seating, but those run overnight and makes lots of stops. They should have the blue LED interior lighting or something that could prevent passengers from being rocked awake at every stop. Maybe I'll try them if I go to the Midwest again, but I really want to ride a H3-45 again just to see how they compare to the X as a passenger.


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## rickycourtney

What sort of annoys me is that both MCI and Prevost did big redesigns of their flagship coaches but didn't bother to give them a new name. Something like J4505 or H4-45. It's not like this was just a facelift, there are some pretty big differences between the old and new versions.


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## Swadian Hardcore

H4-45? That would mean a 4-axle 45-foot motorcoach!  H3-45, AFAIK, means High-Capacity 3-Axle 45-Foot. I'm not sure how Prevost did a major redesign of the H3-45. This was the previous version: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/14752397259/sizes/l. This is the current version: https://www.flickr.com/photos/translinkfan/9583319013/sizes/c/.

All I see are bigger xenon headlights and new fender flares. Also, the bumper now has dual fog lights for a total of four rather than single for a total of two.

From interior shots I've seen, the interior is the same, as is the dashboard and driver's workplace.

I think MCI's J4500 is a bigger redesign. The dashboard and controls have been resigned and the mirrors have been reportedly improved. The interior lighting, headlights, parcel racks, passenger comfort modules, and suspension have all been improved and the exterior styling has taken major changes that, IMO, makes the J look a lot better.

Edit: Oh yes, the rear end of both have been recently redesigned.


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## rickycourtney

Okay you clearly get my point but you're splitting hairs.

When the XL was upgraded it became the XL-II.

When the XL-II was upgraded it became the X3.

When the D4500 was upgraded it became the D4505.

When the D4500 got a facelift it became the D4500CT.

When the J4500 was upgraded it should have been renamed.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, why do you think they didn't do it?

My theory: I think they only change the name when they change the dimensions or structure. For example, XL-45 to XL-II got flush-mounted windows and smooth sides. XL-II to X3-45 got a longer wheelbase. D4500 to D4505 got a brand new nose and a new smooth roof. D4500 to D4500CT got a new smooth roof along with D4500CL. The old D roof was studded with countless rivets.

I wouldn't call the D4500 to D4505 as an "upgrade" considering the poor performance of the D4505 so far, though it did get disc brakes which are also now offered on the D4500CL/CT.

Just my 2 cents.


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## railiner

When you look at the total model name history of MCI....from the beginning....the "logic" behind the designations used for new and improved models, has changed many times over the years....sometimes a number, sometimes just a letter suffix, other times a whole new format....and now in the case of the redesigned 'J'...nothing.... :unsure:

Prevost also has changed their formats from time to time, sometimes using names, other times alph-numeric, and in the case of the 'H' series, nothing, as Swadian has pointed out....The H3-45 has stayed as the indication of all High, 3 axle, 45 foot modes since their inception, with no changes for updates. The H3-40 became the H3-41, but it actually grew a foot longer...and of course the H5-60 articulated, is long gone.....

Even General Motors, before it exited the business, made a radical change in their long used model designations when the RTS model was introduced....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I sure hope Mr. Berardi finds out about those painful Premier seating and orders something else next time..


Yes, he has....from both the driver's and the regular daily commuter's. You may be please to learn that our 2014 H3's came with a new type of Amaya seat. I do not know the model designation, and can't tell from the Amaya website, as ours look a bit different....they have full width headrests, are upholstered in the "leather-like" black vinyl, front and back, and have what I can best describe as a "loose pillow" like additon to the back and headrest....

I haven't ridden in them yet, but sitting in them feels a lot more comfortable than the Premier's. Unfortunately, I still can't slide my shins far under them.....


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## rickycourtney

Got a peek at a TEMSA TS 35 bus last night.
I was really impressed. It's a good looking coach and has all the creature comforts of a normal motorcoach (integral construction, restroom, individual air vents & LED reading lights) but it's quite a bit smaller at 35 feet long. TEMSA also makes a 30 foot TS 30.

Never heard of TEMSA before, but it strikes me that this would be a better coach for use on less-busy routes compared to the cutaways used by Greyhound Connect and other operators.


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## mightyjoe1201

I've seen the TEMSA myself. I got talking to a driver of one that was on a charter and he said he thinks they are built by SETRA. I for for about it till seeing your post. I'll look into it more when I get a chance later.


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## mightyjoe1201

Just did some research, looks like that driver was wrong. TEMSA is its own company based in Turkey.


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## railiner

Academy has had a small fleet of those Temsa's for a few years now. I believe they are used mainly on charter's calling for lower capacity, but "big coach" amenities....

Here's a link from their US distributor....they have a 45 footer, but I haven't seen one on the road, yet. It sure looks like a Van Hool clone....

http://chbussales.com/new-coaches/ts-45


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## rickycourtney

The 45 footer does look like a Van Hool clone, but I wonder how the quality compares.

The 30/35 footers look very European too. The design sort of reminds me of the Alexander Dennis Enviro200 (called the New Flyer MiDi here in the US).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hi Railiner, could the seats be these: http://www.suburbanseats.com/images/resized/312/312/sitecontent/products/486/images/TORINO%20G%20Luxury%20leather.jpg&square=true?

I wouldn't mind if Greyhound orders that type of seat. Though I have never sat in one before, I'm sure it's much better than the Painful Premiers. I found the X3-45 to be a torture machine after riding in it with Premier seats for 23 hours. At that point, the seat matters more than legroom.

I've never seen a TEMSA in the US, all I know is that they come with a Cummins ISL 8.9L 345hp transit engine, which I'm sure Joe is familiar with. In Mexico, a popular luxury coach is the Irizar PB, which comes in both integral and body-on-chassis form, but, despite being Irizar's most expensive offering, it has no default lavatory: http://www.irizar.com/en/products/buses-coaches/coaches/irizar-pb/.

It's sold in Mexico for low prices and competes with the Volvo 9700, which is "not very durable" according to a mechanic who said he rode on one with a dislodged windshield.

I wonder if 4-axle 53-foot motorcoaches could be introduced in the US and Canada with Detroit DD15 engines. Prevost could then make a H4-53 and MCI a J5300.


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, I'm familiar with that engine, tho I think ours have less horsepower. Wish they never would have stopped using Detroit


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, it's not a very good engine? Too bad transit operators don't really have a choice.


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## mightyjoe1201

I won't say it's a bad engine. It may b more personal preference. The ones we have do run good but I prefer a Detroit over a Cummins. The one that's in out 2012 low floors uses less fuel then the older buses with the ISL and the Detroits we have


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hi Railiner, could the seats be these: http://www.suburbanseats.com/images/resized/312/312/sitecontent/products/486/images/TORINO%20G%20Luxury%20leather.jpg&square=true?


That looks something like ours....although ours are a solid black color, and ours have a kind of solid panel on the base, facing the aisle...I'll have to take another close look, next time I see one...

I believe the seatbelts on our outer seats come from between the seats, and click to the outside, kind of opposite what your photo shows.....

and I don't think we have the center armrests.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, it's this? http://amaya-astron.com.mx/uploads/1377546192655_EN_ARCHIVO_1.pdf.

I wonder how they compare to National.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So, it's this? http://amaya-astron.com.mx/uploads/1377546192655_EN_ARCHIVO_1.pdf.
> 
> I wonder how they compare to National.


No...they look a lot more like the first example you linked...except that they are a solid black "leather", there is a solid metal panel covering the gap between the legs facing the aisle, and the seat belts on the aisle seats (I mistakenly stated 'outside', before), retract from between the seats,and click on the aisle side. No center armrest.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm guessing they must be the same seats as the first example, but with slightly different options. Do you know if it's real leather, faux-leather, or vinyl?

Burlington Trailways' new H3-45s have this interior: http://burlingtontrailways.com/about-us/our-equipment/.

For some reason, I think Burlington likes to copy Adirondack!


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## railiner

They do resemble those Burlington seats, except ours do not have the optional tray tables, or cup holders. We do have the mesh magazine pockets, and the footrests, but ours are a solid black--no color accents. I looked again at the Amaya-Astron web site, and nothing shown there resembles them. Perhaps this is a new model, and they are lagging in showing them for some reason. The seating surface and backrest, feels like real leather, or at least a high grade imitation....the sides and rear feel more like a cheaper vinyl.

And I can't tell from those Burlington photo's if they have the same kind of design around the legs of the seat....the Amaya photo does not show anything like it, with the solid panel connecting the two legs facing the aisle. The other end of the seat attaches directly to the wall of the coach.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I found this: http://www.freedmanseating.com/seats_and_accessories/coach_seats/torino_g/.

I can now see the bottom panels you were talking about. I'm guessing these are all just options for the Amaya Torino G and G Plus.

What do you think of Burlington's red floor and white headliner? I think they made a poor choice there. The red floor looks dilapidated easily because it was apparently painted over the default black floor.


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## rickycourtney

Frankly I think you should call Greyhound out on Facebook for having awful seats.

Faced with having to book a reservation down to Olympia for my wife and I... I went with Amtrak even though it was more expensive and less convenient... party because I knew the seats would be comfortable on Amtrak and partly because I still have lingering safety concerns with Greyhound buses.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I found this: http://www.freedmanseating.com/seats_and_accessories/coach_seats/torino_g/.
> 
> I can now see the bottom panels you were talking about. I'm guessing these are all just options for the Amaya Torino G and G Plus.
> 
> What do you think of Burlington's red floor and white headliner? I think they made a poor choice there. The red floor looks dilapidated easily because it was apparently painted over the default black floor.


No....those are different from what we have.....for one thing, those seem to have four legs, ours just two near the aisle, and the other end attached to the wall. And the panels between the legs appear different.

I like a black floor, with a few specks of blue, grey, or white, sort of like a dark marble effect. Shows the least dirt, and less glare at night from the under-seat night lights.

I dislike our latest coaches with the faux wood planks.....

I do like a white ceiling, as it creates a bright interior lighting when needed, and also makes the coach appear more spacious....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've called out Greyhound on Facebook but they responded with ignorance. Similarly, I called them out for the inaccurate route map plus sending an e-mail but all to no avail.

I've also done Greyhound's surveys complaining about the seats and about the dirty D4505s.

To no avail.

You will not be surprised that I am pissed off against Greyhound right now. But this doesn't mean I will ride Amtrak due to high prices and poor schedule options out of Reno. Neither Greyhound nor Amtrak have good value for money on Reno-San Francisco, but Greyhound is cheaper, so whatever. To Salt Lake City, Amtrak timing is terrible (arrival for #6 in SLC) and Greyhound equipment is often better than on the San Fran route so, again, Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Dead man found on Greyhound: http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/dallas-county/2015/01/21/person-found-dead-greyhound-bus/22095653/. 

Not only am I appalled at this, I'm also surprised that White G4500 #7262 made it onto Los Angeles-Dallas.

Man now identified: http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/me-identifies-passenger-found-dead-in-greyhound-bus-last-week.html/.

I'm not worried about safety on Greyhound out of Reno because I know the drivers here are great, but this does not mean that all Greyhound drivers across their vast system are great.

All this being said, I must say that Greyhound did a great job on the Centennial Tour and was hospitable to me at the Maintenance Center (gave permission to the enthusiast for photography).


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm not worried about safety on Greyhound out of Reno because I know the drivers here are great, but this does not mean that all Greyhound drivers across their vast system are great.


I'm really not that concerned about Greyhound's drivers... on my trips on both BoltBus and Greyhound they have all been very professional and took pride in their job. 
Actually, it's the other passengers on Greyhound that worry me. The company still hasn't done enough in my opinion to control who's boarding the bus. I'd like to see ID checks become standard for every passenger, and doing random checks with metal detectors much more frequently.

Frankly, I don't think Greyhound will do anything over fears that cracking down on security could push away some of their customers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I can't disagree, especially with the recent body found in the lavatory. I deal with it by sitting at the very front (riding shotgun) whenever possible, as you can see from my photos.

On my Los Angeles trip, I rode shotgun for both of the DL3s. When not riding shotgun or somewhere around the front, I've had one major incident on D4505 #86535 in Colorado when a old man decided to be a jerk and take two seats for himself. He had mental problems and was murmuring to himself. Thankfully, Chris from the Bronx offered me a seat by the wheelchair lift (the bus was sold out and two Amtrak-ticketed passengers got overbooked.). I took it despite the reduced legroom at the lift position. Chris and I agreed that the new seats are terrible. Thankfully, his bus from Denver to New York was #6541, a DL3.

In my experience, the slower schedules get more civilized passengers than the faster schedules. The US 101 southbound ride (Sked 6825) had no suspicious passengers until San Luis Obispo, and they all had to sit in the back because the front had been filled up already. The same can be said for the US 99 local that I rode.


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## rickycourtney

Check this out! It's a 2001 H3-45 but it's had new front and rear facia panels installed. From the outside it almost looks brand new.

http://www.busesonline.com/view-listing.cfm?listing_id=2297#


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## Swadian Hardcore

A recap? I'm wondering why the owner is selling his 2001 H3-45 right after giving it a 2014 recap. But, if anything, this proves that the H3-45 hasn't changed much since its inception in 1994. I guess the recap is not particularly difficult for a fiberglass motorcoach. It even has the new fenders! Does still has the 2001 interior with FAINSA America seating.

I'm assuming the recap didn't cost much with that $135,000 price tag.

Oh ****, there's a fight outside!


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just read this interesting message on GTE: "GLI G4500 coach # 7272 does have a six monitor flat screen TV/VCR system installed, meal trays, full carpeting, and full window curtains. It is only used on the NYC-Buffalo Pool."

Here's a picture of said vehicle: http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound7272_2.jpg. 

I don't know what to say about this.

On the same thread, I found this story on Peter Pan:
"Hi Lloyd,

It seemed like Greyhound would approach competitors with an offer they couldn't refuse, take this pool arrangement or we will put you out of business.

The competitor would be left with a pool arrangement that did not seem very generous.

After Bonanza was sold to CoachUSA in 1998, there was a lot of discussion among the top line operators through personal relationships built up over decades and through industry associations on what the future held, and what would be the best strategy for survival in a fast changing landscape. Sale or consolidation seemed to top the list. Peter Pan, used to dealing with Bonanza as competitors sometimes and allies at other times, found themselves perhaps in the group who might be left behind. They, over many years, had taken their line haul business from Springfield MA to Boston, To DC, To Baltimore and Phila and especially NYC. This was done incrementally through moves no one ever dared to do earlier, hopping on Greyhounds bread and butter lines.

In one case, about 10 years ago, the fare between NYC and DC was $25 each way. Greyhound lowered their fare to $19. Peter dropped his to $15.

Greyhound dropped their to $10. and Peter dropped his to $5.00. All summer, people could ride either line for $5.00 to NYC or DC, almost 200 miles. At the end of the summer, who blinked? Greyhound...returned the fare to $25 as did Peter. They went head to head on Boston to DC via NYC, Phila, Balto, DC.

Peter Pan had movies, Greyhound did not. Peter left Boston with 23 aboard. Greyhound left at the same time was 23 aboard. It became obvious that there were advantages to romance. But no one was going to hand Peter L. Picknelly a take it or leave it dish of crumbs and expect him to be happy.

It is said Mr. Kerrigan was chosen to negotiate. At the time, Peter was rumored to have 17% of the revenue out of a $75M pie in that corridor.

After all was said and done, he is believed to have walked away with 40% of the pie, gotten rid of lots of buses, reduced staffing greatly, and one other small point, Peter Pan administered the pool ( and presumably and most important, the money.) The term was for 30 years.

Peter was known as a visionary, and one could assume that he was setting up his successors/children in the unlikely event of his passing. But, on Oct 4, 2004, he did pass on.

The pool covers a lot of schedules over varying routes, local and express, and by most accounts, has been well operated. The only fly in the ointment is the arrival of Asian Carriers and others on the express routes running nearly 60 trips per day without any regard or deference to Peter Pan or Greyhound. Bill."

It is notable that current NYD-DCD fares go for as low as $1 on BoltBus, albeit with a booking fee.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, I have found photos today that heavily suggest the Blue G4500s are indeed completely rebuilt in the same way that the 102DL3s were.

Here is 102DL3 #6977, rebuilt and painted blue, emblazoned with the decal "500", as it was the 500th rebuilt Greyhound motorcoach from the contract: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16422579821/sizes/c/.

Here is G4500 #7128, emblazoned with the same decal except reading "700", which, to me, means that it was an extension of the same contract, and was the 700th rebuilt Greyhound motorcoach; as we know nowhere near 700 G4500s were ever built: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16213497957/sizes/c/.

The "700" logo had to be moved to the R3 window presumably because the R1 window was being used for the 100th Anniversary badge.

This, to me, further means the G4500s went through the same contract and the same rebuild treatment as the 102DL3s.


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## rickycourtney

You assume ABC Companies put those stickers there...

Greyhound may have been the one putting those stickers on.

There's no question that the rebuild program that was contracted out to ABC is over. That company closed down the rebuild shop, so if G4500's are still being refurbished (which they might not be) it's all being done in house by Greyhound.

But let's be honest... we are splitting hairs here. The only question is did Greyhound fully rebuild the drivetrain on the G4500 or did they simply give them some maintenance. The other question is how long does Greyhound plan to keep the G4500 on the road.

Either way it doesn't really matter to the passengers, all they see is a blue bus that feels new and that's a good thing.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I still think they rebuilt (or remanufactured) the drivetrain which is a good drivetrain anyway, Detroit Diesel engine coupled to an Allison transmission. The G4500s should have all broken through 1,000,000 miles already anyway. Generally, that is how long a Detroit will last.

But on a different note, here's a Greyhound Setra: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16397908551/sizes/l.

Notice it is "LEASED AND OPERATED BY: GREYHOUND LINES INC.", not owned or paid for by a loan (monthly payments).

That could also be a good reason why Greyhound might have wanted to keep the G4500s: They might be done with payments on them and want to keep them until they can't run a mile more.


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## rickycourtney

My guess is that's a demonstration coach from Setra. So Setra owns it and they are leasing it to Greyhound so the company can try it out.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, I found something else that's really weird: http://www.firststudentinc.com/transportation-management/used-bus-sales/list?Unit=&Location=&MinYear=&MaxYear=&PassengerMin=&PassengerMax=&WheelchairMin=&WheelchairMax=&Body=X345&Chassis=&Transmission=&FuelType=&Brakes=.

If that link works, then it should show First Group selling a Greyhound BoltBus X3-45. It's a 2009 build, #839, with the Detroit 60 14L 425hp EGR engine and 50 (Painful) Premier seating. Serial 72650. As to why it's for sale, I've got no idea.

The same site has got some old 1998 102D3s and 102DL3s for sale. They're 102D3s #1065, #85779, and #85780 and 102DL3 #51164. I have no idea how Greyhound got #51164 unless it's a renumbering or from another First division since the mileage appears to be low (could be a typo).


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## rickycourtney

Hmm. That is interesting. I wonder why BoltBus would be selling one of their coaches.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, I can't wrap my noggin around that one.

What do you think of this old rebuilt 1993 H3-41 interior? http://www.barraclou.com/bus/bellhorizon/bellhorizon354_front.jpg.

It's old, but it's still used in charter service.


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## rickycourtney

Those seats look fantastic and they look very comfortable. I wouldn't mind sitting for a few hours on one of those! The only complaint I have about that interior is the dated looking green/grey chevron fabric headliner and rear wall. I much solid surfaces with neutral colors, although I imagine that carpeted surfaces cuts down on road noise a bit.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm sure it's a comfortable H3-41. Notice the caption on the bottom right corner that says it only carries 38 passengers. There's also two table booths in the back. I'm guessing Bell-Horizon kept the headliner when they rebuilt the coach.

But I think you're sat in those seats before, they are FAINSA America except reupholstered. They appear to have been standard Prevost seating before seat belt requirements, just like how National and American were standard MCI seating.


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## rickycourtney

Gotcha. Well then I really wouldn't mind sitting in those seats for a few hours! 38 seats on a 40 foot bus seems small so I'm also guessing that this bus has pretty generous legroom. The club seating areas with tables is a good choice too. You really don't lose a lot of seats to put it in and families/groups love them. Amtrak California's new D4505s have 2 club seating areas with tables and they're always the first seats to be claimed.

On a totally unrelated note I wanted to share what the Seahawks team bus looks like...



That's actually the first of two Setras that were wrapped in Hawks colors. Interestingly these buses are used by team staff and media only. The players typically travel in Prevost H3-45s in MTR Western's standard livery.


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## Swadian Hardcore

There's also a new 747-8F in the Seahawks livery, but it's a freighter: http://seattletimes.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/today/files/2014/01/hawk_jet_002.jpg. 

But it looks like the Patriots won this time. I'm not big on football so I didn't take a side.

How's MTR Western? It seems like they have some "VIP" Van Hools in addition to the Prevosts.

Also, if you know NorthWest POINT running Portland-Astoria, their XL-IIs are unfortunately equipped with painful American Seating: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busdudedotcom/12245879934/sizes/l.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like someone rode a Greyhound Canada DL3 out of Portland: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16437129741/sizes/l.

He says it's in the Columbia River Gorge and the seat have adjustable headrests. Furthermore, the windows have shades!

Here's another shot, where you can see the enclosed parcel racks: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16251489670/sizes/l.

Edit: Also of interest, he says the G4500s are "remanufactured": https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15784799864/in/[email protected]/.

And a shot of an air bellow: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16251488897/.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's a GLC white D4505 (#1301) with most decals removed: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/15831809453/sizes/l.

I'm not sure if it's being prepared for a repainting or for sale. #1301 is ex-Hotard and has no wheelchair lift. I believe these ex-Hotard D4505s are only used in Eastern Canada.


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## rickycourtney

What's your opinion of window shades? I like them in theory but the windows are so big on buses and trains that they end up being somewhat clumsy. On most buses the first "setting" blocks half of the window and the shade is so big you block the view for several rows of seats. Plus having the shades down ruins the panoramic view that many passengers enjoy.

Of course, they're great when the sun is low and shining right into the bus!


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## railiner

Back in the "old days", when the likes of GM "Silversides" and ACF-Brill's ruled the bus roads, the windows on long-distance coaches were individually sized for each row of seats. Back then, when you lowered the shades to suit, you only affected your row.

With the early-fifties introduction of the PD-4104 and their large "picture windows", that revolutionized the design of all future coaches. The window shades were gone, and instead, they incorporated a deeply green gradated and tinted side and rear window, that now spanned two and a half rows. The tinted windows were a compromise...they provided some glare protection, but also obscured the view at times as well.

The more modern type shades that were introduced as an option on MCI 'ABC' Series coaches, tried to solve the problem by incorporating another compromise....the mesh design that would cut some glare, but not completely obscure the view.

In my opinion, those should not be used on primarily line-haul buses, but limited to those that are used on charter's and tour's, where there is affinity among the passengers...


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## Swadian Hardcore

IMO, it's a double-edged sword. You can block glare but it also blocks viewing out the entire window. Plus, because Greyhound runs with interior lights off at all times, sunlight is often the sole source of lighting inside the motorcoach, and the shades compromise that. And because the shades need maintenance, I don't think such a double-edged sword would be worth it.

The shades on Orange Belt #256 were broken and caused nothing but trouble and made that vehicle look very shabby inside along with the broken seats and useless lavatory sink that was not stocked with water.

With the advent of personal sun shades and winged headrests, I'd say it would be better not to have them. I'm fully against curtains, even though they can be more adjustable than the shades, because they get dirty and/or damaged easily and can get coated with germs. Someone falling asleep and leaning against one could get ill. They're also easy to vandalize.


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## railiner

Good points!

Maybe I'm nostalgic, but I think those old Silversides with their small windows, but otherwise truly 'long-distance' coach design, were a whole lot more comfortable for long trips, than the newest coaches. They did not ride as well, and did not have some of the frills that the new ones have, but they sure had comfortable seats--they reclined waaay back, and had ample legroom....especially the PD-3751.  And they had other things going for them...like Gordon's Pillow Service renting you a clean fresh pillow for overnite runs for a quarter.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Speaking of seating, American Seating has responded to the competition and introduced their new Wayfarer seating, with a notable feature being the option seatback PTV: http://www.americanseating.com/transportation/uploads/tools-resources/T-WAY-2014_FINAL.pdf. 

It looks like these seats may replace the Premier LS.

Also, this bus salesman says that Prevost makes their own seats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna9qrV8_go. (the part about seating start at about 3:30)


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## rickycourtney

Good lord... that is an UGLY seat. They look like a lousy rip-off of Setra's seats.

I like the idea of the USB charging ports... but the placement is awkward. If the tray table is up... it's blocked and it would be better at lap level (where most people hold their phones).









If that black boomerang shaped object is the PTV... it's small (and has a weird shape). Plus as we've as discussed before PTV's are on the way out.

I'd ask if you think these seats are comfortable... but they're from American Seating... so we know they aren't.


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## Swadian Hardcore

At this point, all I care about is that Greyhound orders comfortable seating next time, because, for the past 5 years, Greyhound has been ordering Painful Premiers. But since this is American Seating, I'm almost certain it'll just be another uncomfortable POS. I know that transit agencies are restricted by Buy America, so maybe they would consider ordering this seat because the 2095 is on the way out. It does look like a transit seat.

Greyhound should still order Amaya, National, Kiel, or even FAINSA seating next time, though I believe FAINSA is on the way out as well because I haven't seen any new buses with Fainsas. Multina is also dead, I believe. They were offered on a Prevost brochure, but not anymore. Multina made the Acela Express seats.


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## rickycourtney

Sound Transit's DE60LFR commuter buses have Patriot PT seats from Amaya, although they may have been sold under a different name by 4ONE or Freedman Seating. No matter who sold them, my point is that Amaya seats can be specified on a Buy America compliant coach.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Would it be possible that they ordered a Buy America vehicle without Buy America seating, then purchased the seats with non-federal funding?

Anyways, I did see that NJT ordered a D4500CT CNG with Amaya A2-TEN.

I'm not sure who would buy the Wayfarer nor do I have any idea what Greyhound may buy next. Rumors are on the National 4210, but the version of the 4210 is unclear. Greyhound Canada reportedly used either 4209 or 4210 (with winged headrests) from their 102C3 order in 1989 until their 102DL3 order in 1999. Then they started ordering FAINSA Brasil VIPs, which appears to be the same as the Amaya Torino VIP except with the FAINSA label.

The seat business must be extremely confusing right now with new regulations and lots of seats being sold by middlemen under the same or different names.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Check out the new ROItit review of the motorcoaches: http://roitit.com/. 

Prevost's H3-45 took the lead with best ROI, followed by MCI's J4500, while Van Hool slacked behind. I'd say that's an accurate overview of the private sector motorcoach industry so far, though I was surprised at the high price of the Van Hool. It appears they didn't consider the D4505 or X3-45, presumably because the D4505 sucks and has near-zero sales and the X3-45 is pretty much just for Greyhound and commuter agencies.

Greyhound recently took delivery of another small batch of X3-45s for Americanos, presumably to replace the Americanos-livery G4500s, these should be painted in the Greyhound livery since Americanos has been disbanded. Americanos still has an alarming amount of White G4500s that I saw on my California trip in December.

Also, check out Intercar's new black J4500: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerrysmotorcoachgallery/8731206391/sizes/h/. 

And they also have a different new livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerrysmotorcoachgallery/8731205567/sizes/h/. 

Which livery do you think is better? Or is Intercar's old livery better? They run Northeastern Quebec line-haul routes.


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## rickycourtney

That's a very interesting review. Unlike most of the trade magazines they aren't kissing up to the companies.

I think this summary is perfect:

Prevost - "...most definitely deserves 2014 Motorcoach of the Year award. In nearly every category they put forth a great effort and the quality of their coaches seems to equate to a coach that holds its values better over time and miles."

MCI - "seemingly wins the sales numbers games and in a way that helps and hurts them at the same time."

Van Hool – "Not necessarily a bad coach but company business practices call into question an overall commitment to openness and a client centered approach."


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## Swadian Hardcore

Agreed, I believe KPS ownership has hurt MCI while Volvo ownership has helped Prevost. It seems obvious that MCI alienated traditional customers like Greyhound to grab new customers like NJT, which could have made more short-term profits but pummeled their reputation after losing Greyhound as a customer for the D4505. Typical investment banking ownership, as said on GTE.

I was surprised at the high prices listed for the Van Hools. They even said the prices were for the C2045, not the new TX45 or CX45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Saw this posted on GTE: http://www.utahrails.net/buses/GM-PDPARLOR.htm.

GM Parlor Coach production lists.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Saw this posted on GTE: http://www.utahrails.net/buses/GM-PDPARLOR.htm.
> 
> GM Parlor Coach production lists.


Very nice. But they left off the H8H649 ( the final 233 version's of the P8M-4905A built in 1979 and 1980), which was the end of GMC parlor coach production.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Americanos got 20 more X3-45s. #60401-60420, I expect them to be based out of Los Angeles or El Paso. Hopefully the Americanos G4500s can finally be scrapped. Perhaps they'll start mixing X3-45s into the D4505s over here.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Someone else is complaining about #86352: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=952410048105557&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&theater.

Yeah, Greyhound better get that bus fixed up. Looks like Greyhound has continued to procrastinate and defer maintenance on #86352 even though it was already a hellhole on wheels back in December 2014.

It appears evident that both the 86300s and 86500s are now turning into hellholes. Hundreds of passengers will get sick very soon unless Greyhound does something. I don't know what they could do that isn't too drastic. Also, Greyhound's BoltBus drivers are complaining about wages.

The rumor mill continues to turn, but I won't post those crazy (very crazy) rumors going around.


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## rickycourtney

Dish! I want to hear the crazy rumors churning through the rumor mill.

Is greyhound going to buy electric trolleybuses and electrify our nations highways? That would be a crazy rumor.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Naw, but one rumor was that Greyhound Express will be discontinued. Another one is that Greyhound will buy Caio buses. Another one is that Greyhound will buy double-decker Van Hools. Another one is that Greyhound is trying to start an airline and ditch the bus lines. Another one is that Greyhound is getting rid of BoltBus.

Not as crazy as electric trolleybuses, but making no sense at all anyway.


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## railiner

In the crazy rumor department.....

Megabuses next purchase? http://forum.bustalk.info/files/16170343350_c6fe18bd40_z_588.jpg

:wacko:


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## Caesar La Rock

I saw a blue G4500 in darkness, while I was on a Gillig BRT speeding down I-4. It was exiting right and I assume was heading to the Greyhound terminal in Orlando.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Naw, but one rumor was that Greyhound Express will be discontinued. Another one is that Greyhound will buy Caio buses. Another one is that Greyhound will buy double-decker Van Hools. Another one is that Greyhound is trying to start an airline and ditch the bus lines. Another one is that Greyhound is getting rid of BoltBus.
> 
> Not as crazy as electric trolleybuses, but making no sense at all anyway.


I can't imagine a scenario where Greyhound would eliminate express routes. They seem to be extremely popular with passengers and helping the company appeal to a type of passenger who wouldn't normally take a bus. Getting rid of those routes would be crazy.
That being said I've long expected that eventually Greyhound would unify the BoltBus and Greyhound Express brands. So that's not that crazy.

Greyhound tried running an airline in Canada for a while and failed miserably. They'd be crazy to try again.

I actually don't think the bus rumors are crazy at all. Considering the poor quality of MCI's equipment lately... every manufacturer should be considered. Also while they have considerable drawbacks... it would be smart for Greyhound to consider double decker buses. They allow 1 driver (the most expensive part of running a bus) to carry 70-80 passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, some of those rumors are not so crazy, but when I said "getting rid of BoltBus", the rumor is that Greyhound will _DISCONTINUE _BoltBus! The rumor is that Greyhound will kill Greyhound Express and another rumor followed up that they would kill BoltBus when they kill Greyhound Express.

A more realistic person then said that Greyhound might get rid of the "Express" brand but would not actually kill the service.

As for the Megabus rumor on double-decker artics, it's not that surprising when you compare it to the idea of Greyhound dumping Express and BoltBus. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if Greyhound orders from another manufacturer next time considering the myriad of problems popping up with the D4505 then disappearing again.

Hey CJ, drivers are rooting for the Blue G4500 now and say that they are better than the D4505, which I would agree with due to the D4505's terrible inconsistency. The White G4500 sucks, of course. Are those J4500s with Lynx yet?


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## rickycourtney

Yeah that's insane. Unless you've heard differently, I've always heard that the BoltBus and Greyhound Express routes are very popular and I would assume profitable. I don't know why the company would want to return to operating a bunch of milk-run routes that only appeal to riders who have no other choice in transportation.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I _know_, that's why I said they were crazy rumors! But anyway, it's not unfathomable that Greyhound might get rid of the "Express" brand if their entire route network gets Express service by 2016. Maybe they could just replace the "Express" brand with something like "Greyhound Blue" or "Greyhound Neoclassic". After all, the "Local" runs already use the exact same equipment and booking system as the "Express" runs.

Found these pics on NYC Transit Forums:
http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/46875-greyhound-red-white-and-blues-part-ii/?hl=greyhound.
http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/46844-greyhound-red-white-and-blues/?hl=greyhound.

Greyhound hasn't announced a major order for two years. I expect that Greyhound will order some new motorcoaches this year to replace the remaining white G4500s (they're still in service!) and the old Van Hools. There's a lot of Van Hool pics in those links and they all look to be beat up except for the blue ones.

BTW, #MA86575 is no longer Greyhound's newest bus; that title goes to #60420, part of a 20-unit X3-45 batch delivered to Americanos after the latest main Greyhound order had been completed.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey CJ, drivers are rooting for the Blue G4500 now and say that they are better than the D4505, which I would agree with due to the D4505's terrible inconsistency. The White G4500 sucks, of course. Are those J4500s with Lynx yet?


The order for motorcoaches has changed a lot. Right now it's up in limbo at the moment. Until then, we're using 900 series Van Hools from Mears, which just happen to be Mears' oldest buses, which are currently being retired from Mears. It's good to see the G4500s are finally getting some positives after all the craziness I've heard about those buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh yeah, the G4500s certainly were terrible vehicles. I think they're a lot better now. The D4505 was a major improvement over the white G4500 when they were introduced, but now the D4505 has gotten worse while the G4500 has been improved, so that the blue G4500 can be considered significantly superior in most ways to the D4505 and the white G4500.

Unfortunately, the D4505 has gotten so bad that now they're right about the same as the white G4500s were. The good D4505s are fine just like the good white G4500s were, but the bad D4505s make me want to puke, the same problem that the bad white G4500s had. The D4505 has had its share of fires, a plethora of breakdowns caused by "regen failure", completely unpredictable suspension, poor trim quality (cracking), and the least comfortable seats Greyhound could have ordered with them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Fleas reported on a Greyhound Van Hool: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=808868635833092&set=vr.808868635833092&type=3&theater.

Greyhound says the incident involved a Valley Transit Van Hool. The Van Hool appears to be a lightly-refurbished (not remanufactured) C2045 that was then painted blue. It should have FAINSA Gaudi seats. I'm trying to find out the difference between FAINSA Gaudi and FAINSA Brasil.


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## rickycourtney

Oh my god. That's absolutely disgusting.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh yeah, that is disgusting all right!

I don't know why Greyhound keeps letting this happen. I'm surprised it didn't it the news.

Keeping tabs on Facebook, I found this incident when Greyhound barred some homeless passengers with no ID from buying a ticket: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=420139301482407&set=o.117755058267776&type=3&theater.

Also, DL3 #30990 is currently the Harlem Globetrotters' bus.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's disgusting. I understand federal law requires I.d. but greyhound should have still been able to help these people.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not sure if federal law required ID or not. But that's definitely a tough situation. If Greyhound lets one group of homeless without ID get onto the bus, then all the homeless without ID would soon be getting onto the bus. OTOH, if they don't get onto the bus, what are they going to do?

Here's old news from 2013 when Greyhound Canada picked up a handicapped woman from her home in Kenora after her ticketed bus had no wheelchair lift: http://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.com/2013/01/14/greyhound-comes-through-to-make-special-christmas-for-kenora-woman.

Also, here's an old MC-7 going into Reno in a 1974 film: http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_312508-MCI-MC-7.html.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just found this blog post: http://www.travelgogirl.com/blog/2012/03/13/the-road-rage-and-wonder-of-travel-for-an-ldr/. 

Railiner, aren't those the seats in Adirondack's pre-2009 H3-45s?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I just found this blog post: http://www.travelgogirl.com/blog/2012/03/13/the-road-rage-and-wonder-of-travel-for-an-ldr/.
> 
> Railiner, aren't those the seats in Adirondack's pre-2009 H3-45s?


Sure looks like ours....


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## Swadian Hardcore

That looks like an older Prevost to me. It's got that black window escape bar but it isn't perforated. I did a vid search and I think that would make it pre-1998 model year. How do you like that orange-grey interior? I seem to vaguely remember it from my ADI rides. I think the J4500s had/have a different interior.

Here's an article on released inmates taking Greyhound: http://www.norwalkreflector.com/article/6531861. 

You know, if those inmates don't have ID, Greyhound could prevent them from boarding.


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## railiner

We had that seat color scheme for many years, dating back to our 102C's

We varied it some along the way, and the final year we had it was in our miserable Premier's in 2009. Now we use black 'leather'.....


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## rickycourtney

In most states when prisoners are released they are either issued an ID card or documents that act as a temporary ID.

Inmate transportation is actually somewhat common on Amtrak too.

When I used to ride the San Joaquin the just released prisoners would frequently board the first southbound train of the day in Corcoran. They were always had identical white t-shirts, grey sweatpants, a plastic bag full of belongings and a small manila envelope with release papers, a state issued ID card and whatever cash they had.

It was my experience that these men were always extremely well behaved (lots of yes sir's and thank you ma'am's) because the last thing they wanted was to get kicked off the train or worse, rearrested.


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## railiner

Yeah...we carry them too, on "graduation day", from numerous 'upstate' prisons back to The City....Many of them will leave behind the heavy beige jackets, and other garb that the taxpayer's provide them. They are usually well behaved, but sometimes get rambunctious when the bus finally arrives at The Port. Just happy to be home, I suppose....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner, I remember the Premiers being OK when they were brand-new. Did you notice them deteriorating rapidly or were they always miserable, from the start?

The released inmates probably do have ID but the article was saying they had no ID. I guess the author didn't do thorough research. Not sure why so many people are afraid of the released inmates on trains and buses. They should certainly behave well or end up back in prison eating soy-meat paste. I think the prison system should do a better job rehabbing them so that they don't end up going back in again. Just my 2c.

At least one guy made it to a halfway house. Good luck to him.

Also on the news is a trial for the 2010 Fresno crash: http://www.fresnobee.com/2015/03/23/4443625_lawyers-trade-accusations-in-greyhound.html?rh=1.

I think it's possible the bus did have bad brakes since Greyhound has a history of deferring maintenance. OTOH, I think Jewett was actually wearing his glasses because I wear glasses and I can't drive without them; everything would be a blur. I don't know his prescription but I think he was wearing glasses and a spare pair could have been in his pocket, though he was probably speeding as well, which is prevalent among night drivers. Don't any passengers remember if he was wearing glasses or not?


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## rickycourtney

Speaking of that story... some breaking news just crossing the AP wire this afternoon:



> A jury has ruled Greyhound is not at fault in a 2010 deadly crash in Fresno that killed six people.
> 
> The Fresno, California, jury ruled 10-2 Tuesday that Greyhound Bus was not responsible in the deaths of three young women who were in an SUV that had overturned on a highway before the bus crashed into it. The bus driver and two passengers were also killed.
> 
> The families of the three women sued Greyhound for negligence, contending the driver was speeding in the highway's fast lane and wasn't wearing his eyeglasses when he plowed into the overturned SUV.


Full in depth write up from the Fresno Bee here. I covered this case extensively when I worked in Fresno... and it seemed that the family of Sylvia Garay was really trying to clear her name... seemingly at the expense of the name of the Greyhound driver, James Jewett. They basically argued that while their daughter was drunk, she wasn't behind the wheel and that if the professional Greyhound driver hadn't have made mistakes like not wearing his glasses, and not speeding in a bus with faulty breaks... he would have been able to avoid the crash. Clearly the jury disagreed.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's actually good news that greyhound isn't responsible. It may b one of the rare times a professional driver and company aren't help liable for someone else's stupidity.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not surprised considering the SUV was the one that overturned in the first place. Greyhound may have had faulty brakes, but if the SUV hadn't overturned by itself, Greyhound wouldn't have crashed. That being said, I think Jewett could have been speeding and the bus could have had faulty brakes (TNM&O only had a pair of 2006 D4505s), but Jewett probably did have his glasses on. I don't think Jewett could have avoided the crash given the circumstances. Just my 2 cents.


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## railiner

Just another example of greedy PI attorney's going after a target with 'deep pockets'....glad to hear they failed in this case.....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Railiner, I remember the Premiers being OK when they were brand-new. Did you notice them deteriorating rapidly or were they always miserable, from the start?


I don't think they were ever okay. They were horrible in 2009...they were basically school bus 'containment seats', modified with reclining backs and fancy upholstery. Miserable to sit in. Our commuter's howled against them. Even our charter customer's hated them, and some specifically had instruction's on the charter order not to assign them to their charter...

The owner of our company finally 'heard' the employees and customer's and switched brands....


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## Swadian Hardcore

They howled against them? Did they verbally complain to the driver or did they flood the mailbox with complaints?

I hope Mr. Leach sees this soon.

One lawsuit over, and immediately another lawsuit against Greyhound: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/03/wyoming_couple_sues_greyhound.html.

Sued for the accident in Ohio.


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## Caesar La Rock

Here is a pair of videos from back in the days of Greyhound. These were taken by Youtube user Jean MIRÉ MAISON. They're not in the best of shape, but the first one you can hear the 6V92TA on the MC-9 as it approaches the Greyhound bus station.



6878 is a 1985 TMC MC-9, 2424 is a 1975 TMC MC-8. Several MC-8s and MC-9s are seen in the second video.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I found more old Greyhound timetables on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16946496101/in/album-72157647622207805/.

These are from 1966 and many are from around Reno.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MCI releases brochure explaining why the J4500 is more economical to operate (aka more profitable) than the H3-45 and C2045: http://www.mcicoach.com/literatureAssets/tco/#1/z. 

But there's a glaring error: the J4500 is listed as both 8.7 MPG and 9.16 MPG. What the heck?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I found more old Greyhound timetables on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16946496101/in/album-72157647622207805/.
> 
> These are from 1966 and many are from around Reno.


Thanks for providing that link....great stuff there!

It almost makes you want to cry, seeing all those routes and schedules that have disappeared over the years. I noticed one little tidbit...the trip numbers on the old Pacific Greyhound Lines mid-century timetables between Los Angeles and San Francisco used odd numbers northbound and even numbers southbound, reflecting the practices of its then parent Southern Pacific Railroad, where everything going toward San Francisco was "westward", and everything leaving San Francisco was "eastward".... 

I especially loved that postcard view of my all-time favorite highway rest stop--the Breezewood (PA) Post House.

*

As for the two different mileage claims for the J4500...perhaps it was the result of two different test runs...once when they compared it with the Van Hool, and the other when compared with the Prevost? :unsure:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Look at how many stops all those buses used to make! Between Santa Rosa and Ukiah alone, they stopped at Fulton Interchange, Windsor Interchange, Healdsburg, Lytton, Geyserville, Cloverdale, and Hopland! A stop every 5-20 minutes, it seems.

I haven't seen the Los Angeles-San Francisco timetable yet. I guess the reason why the numbers were reversed with the SP was because they had New Orleans-San Francisco trains that went west to Los Angeles and then north to San Francisco, so everything else running Los Angeles-San Francisco would be considered westbound as well. I see that Greyhound also had such service, such as San Francisco-Miami, which went through Los Angeles.

I guess MCI could have tested the J against the Prevost in different conditions then they tested it against the Van Hool, but I still think this is a blatant error. Also, MCI's website is still showing the "2014 MCI J4500" and "2014 MCI D4505." It's 2015 already!


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## railiner

Well they may or may not have tested them again this year....Or...perhaps they could not duplicate that fantastic better then 9 mpg mileage, so they elected not to publish the latest test....


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## Swadian Hardcore

No, what I mean is that MCI's spec sheets are still for the 2014 model year! Check this out: http://www.mcicoach.com/luxury-coaches/passengerJ4500.htm. 

"2014 MCI J4500", and the turning circle is still listed as 47' even though the new IFS would have reduced it significantly.

Same deal with the D4505.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> No, what I mean is that MCI's spec sheets are still for the 2014 model year! Check this out: http://www.mcicoach.com/luxury-coaches/passengerJ4500.htm.
> 
> "2014 MCI J4500", and the turning circle is still listed as 47' even though the new IFS would have reduced it significantly.
> 
> Same deal with the D4505.


Yes, the brochure says '2014', but at the bottom in the specs, it shows turning radius of 40', 11".....

Perhaps they don't reissue a brochure each year? Or they are just lax at updating the cover? :unsure:

Why don't you ask them?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'll probably just get false information or get ignored if I ask them. That's usually been MCI's previous attitude when I ask about things. I see that the J4500 figures were updated, but the D4505 and D4500CT haven't been. A lot of weird stuff is going on at MCI's website. The brochure was weird and the spec sheets are weird. I don't understand why MCI blatantly fails to notice details. If their website is so sloppy, imagine how bad their products have gotten.


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## railiner

Not to sound like an MCI defender, or anything...but many companies don't seem to 'notice details' on their websites. Either their IT department is weak, or their website is not that important to their total business model......


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, you have a point. I still think it would have only taken a bare minimum of effort to update the information, but anyway, this reminds me that Greyhound's route map is still inaccurate and still shows that Ottumwa is in Missouri, when it's actually in Iowa, along with a massive host of other errors.

Edit: BTW, Greyhound Canada just got rid of Edmonton-Prince George. Now it's running Valemount-Prince George connecting at Valemount from the Edmonton-Vancouver. Talk about minimization of capacity!


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## rickycourtney

I agree it comes across as very sloppy... which reflects poorly on the values at MCI.

Quasi-related to Greyhound... My wife and Im are planning a short weekend trip to Portland next month and we spotted a mythical $1 ticket on BoltBus. We aren't even sure we can make the trip... but we figured it was a good bet to make. If we can make it work she gets to "Bolt for a Buck" and if not, we only lose a buck (plus a $1.50 booking fee).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, if you see that $1 fare, it probably won't last! Is that for one-way or round-trip? I'm not sure if you could get a $1 fare for both of you. But it sure is a good deal. I'd have to point out that those Painful Premiers still suck and they aren't getting any better.

MCI has been getting a lot of new managers lately. Perhaps they are going through financial trouble again. I wouldn't be surprised. On GTE, people said that most of the orders aren't even being announced on news releases anymore.

Have you seen any more Blue G4500s? I haven't been to the bus terminal here in a while. I've got an updated list of at least 74 Blue G4500s. They seem to not have regional bases any more, like the other models do. They seem to run all around the country now. #7222 was seen in Vancouver, then in Atlanta, then in Oklahoma City. It looks like they are being deployed on long-haul corridors, presumably due to having more luggage capacity or perhaps longer driving range. Or perhaps they are going out on triangular rotations.

Greyhound's selling three DL3s, #6087, #6165, and #6291. All are 1999s with over 2,000,000 mileage. No wheelchair lifts. Jeez, they must have been running about 165,000 miles a year because these would have been out of scheduled service since December 2012 due to lack of wheelchair lifts.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Edit: BTW, Greyhound Canada just got rid of Edmonton-Prince George. Now it's running Valemount-Prince George connecting at Valemount from the Edmonton-Vancouver. Talk about minimization of capacity!


Sad.....looks like they are decimating their routes like GLI has been doing....


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## Swadian Hardcore

They've been doing it for a long time. GLC got rid of the Hay River service, cutting it back to High Level, which was then discontinued altogether. I think Edmonton-Prince George used to be twice daily, until they got rid of one, then cut it back to Valemount. Prince Geroge-Dawson Creek underwent a similar halving of service.

GLC is also cutting lots of routes in Manitoba and may be cutting in Ontario as well. I think GLC should get rid of its unprofitable commuter service, which fails to compete with transit agencies and the equipment only gets two burst of profitability in the morning and afternoon. Thank God they still have the routes to Whitehorse and Port Hardy. Those might actually make a profit.

I'm hoping GLC will only cut frequencies and not cut routes altogether. They should cut the tiny local stops as well on the main Trans-Canada Highway. I don't see the point of stopping in Hussar Junction, Cluny Junction, and Bassano, for example.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, if you see that $1 fare, it probably won't last! Is that for one-way or round-trip? I'm not sure if you could get a $1 fare for both of you. But it sure is a good deal.


 It's just one ticket, one way. A second one way ticket would have been $15 (which is still a bargain compared to Amtrak). I would have purchased 2 round-trip tickets at that moment to save us from having to pay the booking fee more than once, but like I said we aren't exactly sure on the details of the trip.

The deal was so good, we had to take the gamble it would work. Problem with BoltBus is... if you buy a ticket and can't use it you have to pay the $1.50 booking fee again plus the difference in ticket cost and there's no refund if the new ticket costs less than the old ticket. So it just didn't make since to buy the tickets for the other segments yet.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'd have to point out that those Painful Premiers still suck and they aren't getting any better.


The Premier seating remains an unfortunate choice (especially on the "premium" BoltBus routes) but thankfully the trip is just over 3 hours... so we can suck it up... especially considering it's such a bargain.
Does anyone know the status of the BLUE system? BoltBus up here in the PNW used to have it... but now I'm not sure. Time will really fly by if we can watch a movie on our iPad.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> On GTE, people said that most of the orders aren't even being announced on news releases anymore.


That's not surprising. My semi-educated two cents... the website is likely managed by the marketing department, which probably consists of just a few people or contractors. Either the department has bigger fish to fry (could be due to the launch of new buses) or they are really behind on their duties (could be due to short-staffing, vacations or layoffs).



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Have you seen any more Blue G4500s?


I really don't get down to the SoDo area much anymore so I really haven't seen the Greyhound station much. When I went by last week there was a G4500, but I didn't catch its unit number.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They've been doing it for a long time. GLC got rid of the Hay River service, cutting it back to High Level, which was then discontinued altogether. I think Edmonton-Prince George used to be twice daily, until they got rid of one, then cut it back to Valemount. Prince Geroge-Dawson Creek underwent a similar halving of service.
> 
> GLC is also cutting lots of routes in Manitoba and may be cutting in Ontario as well. I think GLC should get rid of its unprofitable commuter service, which fails to compete with transit agencies and the equipment only gets two burst of profitability in the morning and afternoon. Thank God they still have the routes to Whitehorse and Port Hardy. Those might actually make a profit.
> 
> I'm hoping GLC will only cut frequencies and not cut routes altogether. They should cut the tiny local stops as well on the main Trans-Canada Highway. I don't see the point of stopping in Hussar Junction, Cluny Junction, and Bassano, for example.


I would really hate to see them ever cut out the route to Whitehorse. Back in 1970, when that route was still part of the old Coachway's system, I rode that and continued on to Fairbanks.

It would be really great if they ever would run that again. With a connection to Anchorage as well, like they used to. Perhaps if they tried it at least from the high tourist season from mid June until September, and properly promoted it, with various tour packages, like the cruiselines offer, it might be profitable. And if so, they might earn enough on GPX to continue it at least once a week, all year round. Just a dream.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, I guess you could suck it up for 3 hours, but those guys riding Bolt from Portland to Vancouver or Los Angeles to San Francisco are really going to get the pain. I think the most painful bus ride in the country would be Los Angeles-Dallas on a Greyhound D4505 or perhaps Richmond-Dallas on a X3-45.

As for BLUE, I haven't heard anything at all. I guess they're dropping the concept. Rumors on Facebook say that Greyhound is not interested in expanding BOLT or YO! anymore. I also see a NC-owned D4505 being driven to Raleigh and a driver talking about buying an old DL3. Heck, lots of drivers are talking about buying old DL3s. Those for sale must be really cheap considering their sky-high mileage.

The Setras are reportedly "disappointments", perhaps because they are not really designed for racking up the miles on the highway; some drivers are rooting for the J4500, but MCI's recent sloppiness leaves much to be desired.

Up in the North, I wonder if Greyhound ever took over the Coachways routes or did they simply purchase the route southeast of Whitehorse? Currently, Alaska Direct still runs Whitehorse-Fairbanks. It's not impossible that Greyhound could run that route in the summer tourist season, though I'm almost certain it would lose money in the winter. I think the current Dawson Creek-Fort Nelson-Whitehorse loses money in the winter and earns money in the summer, or else GLC would have axed it as well. Any more expansion would require GLC to get out of financial trouble and their bad reputation. Trautman knew commuter service was unprofitable, and yet GLC still keep running commuter service.

Here's a short trip report from the Vancouver-Calgary route that I found: http://www.travelreportage.com/2014/10/20/the-quickest-and-cheapest-way-to-see-the-canadian-rockies-bus-greyhound/. She took Sked 5006, the one I'm planning to take as well from Penticton. ROFL after reading "unicorns."


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## rickycourtney

Oh totally. I don't know how people could do a LA-SF trip on a BoltBus with Premier seating... it would just be excruciating considering you only get one break. Thankfully if you were doing Vancouver to Portland on BoltBus you get quite a few stretch breaks for a "limited stop" route... passengers are able to get off at the International Boarder (that's a mandatory stretch break, haha), Bellingham and Seattle.

I'm not sure that Greyhound is dropping the BLUE system since it's still proudly listed on the "What's New" section of their website. It's just weird that it's been around for 2 years at this point and has never expanded beyond the trial markets (Greyhound Express: Dallas-Houston, BoltBus: Vancouver-Seattle-Portland). The original plan was to do a 6 month pilot program and then expand the system nationwide.

If they end up canning the BLUE system it will be a real shame... I was incredibly impressed and it was really a fantastic concept. It really puts Greyhound up there with airlines in terms of offering BYOD entertainment service. Heck, I've recently used the BYOD systems on Southwest and Alaska and thought BLUE was better. Of course, they all beat the old seat back TV's with DIRECTV on United.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I thought United didn't have seatback TVs. That must be either new or on ex-Continental aircraft. Haven't been following the airline industry much these days except for the expansion of Premium Economy. Hopefully Greyhound goes through with BLUE, but their website doesn't get updated much anyway. The route map is inaccurate, so God knows what's also inaccurate. They haven't even updated the "What's New" section in years. Perhaps they've already expanded it but have failed to make a news release. Is BLUE stored in the bus or in the Wi-Fi connection?

The problem for me is that the rest breaks don't help the pain on the actual bus. I learned that the hard way between Reno and Denver. Both ways I had to sit in a Painful Premier. These days, I plain hate those seats and I would boycott them on anything longer than Reno-San Francisco.


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## rickycourtney

To my understanding there is an onboard BLUE media server (computer with a storage device) where all the content (movies, tv shows, music games) is stored. You access that server via a portal that pops up on your browser when you connect to the BLUE WiFi network. So when you play a movie the content is streamed from the media server to your device over WiFi, but that content is already stored on the bus... it's not downloaded via 4G cellular (how you connect to the internet).

The result is the catalog isn't expansive (like Netflix), but the content plays immediately and without any hiccups (from things like driving through a section of country with bad cell reception).


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, if the movies for BLUE are already stored on the bus, then wouldn't BLUE play anywhere that such an equipped bus is operating? So perhaps all of Greyhound's Dallas-based buses are equipped with BLUE and, conversely, all the Dallas-based routes would have BLUE? Unless Greyhound has a special pool for the Dallas-Houston route.

Edit: Found this article: http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/3659166-pembina-based-mci-sends-buses-new-jersey-contributes-good-year-company.

NJT is replacing buses that only have 500,000 miles on them? That's a disgrace to the same model that works four times as hard for Greyhound! Anybody who continues to say commuter coaches work hard and take a beating needs to gravel himself. Of course MCI had a good year when their customers are replacing buses that only ran a quarter of their service life! BTW, Greyhound's DL3s have all worked over 2,000,000 miles and are still going.


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## rickycourtney

I think that for the purposes of the BLUE trial there was a special pool of buses for the Dallas-Houston Greyhound Express route.

Comparing buses in transit commuter service to buses in intercity service is like comparing apples to oranges. Buses in transit commuter service tend to only run Monday-Friday during peak hours and do a lot of stop and go driving.

Also the FTA has set the minimum service life for a transit bus at 12 years or 500,000 miles, whichever comes first. At that point, buses paid for with federal funding can be retired without penalty. Many agencies have set a goal to retire buses when they reach their minimum service life to keep their fleet as new as possible.

Greyhound is a different animal... they don't receive federal funding and they were able to rebuild those DL3's, which returned them to a "like new" condition despite the number on the odometer. But rebuilds like that are somewhat rare in both the transit industry and in the intercity coach industry... Greyhound is one of the few companies large enough to make it happen.


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## Caesar La Rock

Most of the Gillig BRTs in Orlando have blown by the 500K mile minimum (a few years ago actually), but are still on the road, despite being 7-9 years old. As for minimum service life, some transit systems often exceed the 12 year lifespan.

It really depends on the system and their duty cycle for buses. Also, read the article carefully, they said over 500,000 miles on them. Not buses that have reached 500,000 miles. A lot of buses can have very different mileage, some higher and some lower then others.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw some ex-NJT MCIs for sale that had 600,000-700,000 miles. That still doesn't seem like much. I know they do stop-and-go driving, but would such driving really hurt the bus enough to retire them at such an early mileage?

Greyhound is also selling some MCIs, #6087, #6165, and #6291. These are White DL3s with no wheelchair lifts; they have not been rebuilt. These were relegated to charter service, but presumably Greyhound had too many charter-only DL3s and had to sell some. The thing is, all three of these for sale have run over 2,000,000 miles, #6165 being the most at 2,391,675 miles. I'm assuming Greyhound's rebuilt DL3s have even more miles by now.

Using the same trend, it can be assumed that Greyhound's 2010 D4505s have already run as many miles as NJT's 2001 D4500s. If it is indeed true that stop-and-go driving severely wears and tears the D4500s, then perhaps NJT shouldn't have bought them in the first place, because it would have been a waste of a good D4500 that could have otherwise run many more miles if it hadn't been used for commuter service.

Regarding BLUE, if they were using DL3s on Dallas-Houston, it would have been very hard to use a special pool of buses, IMO.


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## mightyjoe1201

Stop and go makes it harder on any vehicle. Even if they are marketed for commuter use it still is harder. We have some 2005 Gillig phantoms that have almost 300,000 on them and r falling apart.


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## rickycourtney

Right... mind you retiring buses at 12 years or 500,000 miles is the "gold standard" and usually something that only well funded agencies can achieve (but all agencies aspire to).

The FTA found that most agencies keep their buses around 15 years on average. Also worth mentioning that down in Portland they are preparing some Gillg's that are just about to turn 25 years old! They've certainly got a lot of use out of those buses... but I shudder to think what it must be like to ride on a bus that old.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You mean they have 1990 Gillig Phantoms? Yeah, I don't know how that one would feel like. Probably pretty bad. GLC was running 1991 102C3s with CAT engines up until 2011, so they would have racked up +-3,000,000 miles. Then again, those 102C3s ran on the highway and probably took very little wear-and-tear. I guess 500,000 miles is indeed maximum for a stop-and-go bus, though intercity buses should last much longer. Heard high idle really wears out the engine while waiting on passengers. Someone told me it lowers engine life by 40%.


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## mightyjoe1201

Or may depend on the seats on a transit bus. We had a fleet of early 80's neoplans for almost 20 yrs that I thought were more comfortable then our current fleet. Except that is for our Damn trolley. Lol.

Your about rite. Intercity buses do tend to last longer and are probably designed that way.

High idle is kind of one if those catch 22's. It does put more wear on the engine but can also prolong engine life. Too long at low idle and the oil drains from the cylinders.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So I guess the best way would be to minimize idling altogether? Just keep on running and, at stations, turn off the engine? Greyhound has a 15-minute Engine Idle Limit, but not all drivers obey it. At Reno, I once saw a White G (I think #7159) that kept running and spewing fumes for up to 30 minutes doing nothing. It wasn't coming or going anywhere, it was sitting in the lot.

It was on a trucker forum when I saw someone saying a Detroit Diesel Series 60 would last 1,000,000 miles on a truck but only 600,000 on a motorcoach because the latter would always be idling waiting for passengers. Of course, again, Greyhound is the exception. I think charter buses also idle a lot waiting for their groups.

In San Francisco, I always thought the PCCs had more comfortable seats than anything else MUNI had. Guess they knew comfort back in the 1940s.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So I guess the best way would be to minimize idling altogether? Just keep on running and, at stations, turn off the engine? Greyhound has a 15-minute Engine Idle Limit, but not all drivers obey it. At Reno, I once saw a White G (I think #7159) that kept running and spewing fumes for up to 30 minutes doing nothing. It wasn't coming or going anywhere, it was sitting in the lot.
> 
> It was on a trucker forum when I saw someone saying a Detroit Diesel Series 60 would last 1,000,000 miles on a truck but only 600,000 on a motorcoach because the latter would always be idling waiting for passengers. Of course, again, Greyhound is the exception. I think charter buses also idle a lot waiting for their groups.
> 
> In San Francisco, I always thought the PCCs had more comfortable seats than anything else MUNI had. Guess they knew comfort back in the 1940s.


Been around any truckstops? I see trucks idling all night long, to keep sleeping driver's warm....

Most new buses have timer's that will automatically shut down an idling bus after about 15 minutes....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now that I think about it, you're right! I was around both the Avenal and Wendover truck stops in the middle of the night and I see trucks running. So I don't know what that trucker was talking about. I guess you can't trust those same guys that are talking about disabling EGR. Perhaps they could find an efficient system that keep the HVAC on without idling the engine.

I just found somebody hating on Greyhound on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7kgBmtMIM.

OK, I know that D4505 sucks, but that driver was trying to be reasonable and the other guy (supervisor?) was trying to be nice. And yet she claims to have been "attacked" and "yelled at" by Greyhound. In fact, she was the one yelling at the employees. She was the one that called the driver a "****." Just looking for trouble. If I were the driver, I would've kicked her off my bus.

BTW, that is Sked 3891 Atlanta-Jacksonville.

Oh, and here's some kids licking flies off a D4505: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78lIXFJq8M.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> You mean they have 1990 Gillig Phantoms? Yeah, I don't know how that one would feel like. Probably pretty bad. GLC was running 1991 102C3s with CAT engines up until 2011, so they would have racked up +-3,000,000 miles. Then again, those 102C3s ran on the highway and probably took very little wear-and-tear. I guess 500,000 miles is indeed maximum for a stop-and-go bus, though intercity buses should last much longer. Heard high idle really wears out the engine while waiting on passengers. Someone told me it lowers engine life by 40%.


They also have some Flxible Metros left too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They still have Flxibles left? OK, I'd better go for a ride on one if they are really still running! Is anybody still running GMC New Looks or Classics? I don't really care if it's a MCI or Nova Classic, either. Calgary Transit just retired their last Classic.


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## rickycourtney

Idling is just bad all around. It sucks up fuel and puts wear and tear on the engine. Here in Seattle the rule for Metro drivers is that they have to shut off their engine immediately upon arrival at a layover point. It's usually within seconds... the driver pulls up, sets the parking brake and kills the engine. Mind you these layovers aren't very long (5-20 minutes) but it's worth it for the fuel savings.

Our brand new hybrid Xcelciors go one step further. Much like a Prius the engine shuts off if the bus is stationary for more than a few seconds.

Back to Greyhound... it would probably be a good idea for the company to study idling at layover stops. It would probably be a good idea to have drivers shut off their engine immediately upon arrival at a layover point. The only exception could be for stops in areas with extreme heat or cold. To that end it might be worth investigating wiring buses for shore power so air conditioning systems, customer power outlets and WiFi systems can continue to run while the bus is parked.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's actually not a bad idea. Tho shore power can be a problem when it comes to cost. Another option would b auxiliary power units. Yes, they take up some room but are worth it. A lot if trucks have them, they operate hvac and most electrical systems. They also will start automatically when the engine is shut off and run off either diesel from the vehicle tank or off of batteries that recharge while driving. The one that I had on the truck I drove would also keep the engine block and oil warm in the winter so it wouldn't freeze up. Greyhound would benefit from it a lot.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I did some more digging on the APU. Installation costs around $15,000 and the APU can get quite loud, but it seems to be a good idea. The APU appears to work best when the vehicle is piling up the miles so that it can recharge while driving. So I don't think it'll be very useful for charters or tours, but very useful for scheduled service, especially Greyhound.

After a search, I found what MCI says on the issue:
"MCI does not currently have the budget (or necessary expertise) to develop the APU systems.
Cost of Fuel Cells are still high, therefore the APU may also carry a significant cost penalty."

MCI says they don't currently offer any APU-equipped models.


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## rickycourtney

Unlike semi trucks going to truck stops, Greyhound buses have the benefit of consistency. They almost always pull into a slip head first. That means everything is always in the same spot. It would be easy enough to install shore cables in a constant spot at each company owned station and having corresponding receptacles on each bus.

Using shore power would be cheaper in the long run since there's no fuel burn and very little equipment that would need to be installed on each bus (equipment that takes up valuable space and needs maintenance).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound in Reno has their own fuel reserves and fueling lines. These lines are along the bus bays. This makes it easy to refuel every bus that pulls into Reno. The same thing could be done with shore power. I'm not sure why the company has not installed either this or APUs.

Also, Blue G #7267 seen on Facebook at this moment running Sked 1684 Denver-New York City. I like how it's signed "NEW YORK CITY" instead of "NEW YORK. NY". Photo courtesy Earl Smith/Facebook.

Them Blue G's holding down the long-haul corridors.


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## rickycourtney

Do drivers type the destinations into the signs or are all the possible destinations preprogrammed into a memory bank?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think the destinations are typed in. I've seen all kinds of different funny destinations being displayed. Peter Pan likes to display "NEVER NEVER LAND".

I rarely see "NEW YORK CITY" in pictures anymore. Greyhound used that a long ways back, perhaps in the MC-9 days. By the 102A3, they were seen displaying "NEW YORK" and then the X3-45, with its electronic sign, started displaying "NEW YORK, NY."

My assumption is that the Denver driver was a veteran driver and works far from New York City, so he decided to post that. Earl says "she doing best she can" of the bus, another guy said "that will buff out", which I don't really understand. Then a third guy said "don't hate, celebrate!" Last guy says it's 1682, but I'm almost certain it's 1684 because the photo is geotagged Goodland, KS and taken in the middle of the night. 1682 passes Goodland around noon. So yeah, lots of mixed opinions about these Blue G's, I guess. It matters to me because I've been following them for a long time.

One more thing, I found this trip report of Greyhound, but I haven't got the time to rear it yet: http://sacratomatovillepost.com/2012/09/28/bus-6062-from-atlanta-to-new-orleans/.


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## mightyjoe1201

Actually, the destinations are preprogrammed into the signs. All the driver does is enter a corresponding code to bring up the sign they want. Next time your on a greyhound take a look at the back if the sign. It probably has a number pad rather then a full keyboard.


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## mightyjoe1201

Using shore power is good but depends on the electricity cost. Also, what about the small stations in the small towns that aren't owned by greyhound?

An apu doesn't take up much space and doesn't use much fuel. Only about a gallon in 8 hrs. And if it's batteries they stay charged when ever the engine is run and last 8-10 hours of continuous use. Trucks have the same issue as buses when it comes to space and valuable weight needed.


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## fishbusone

Years ago, most major stations did supply hotel power to the coaches! The stations used ceiling hoses that would connect to a trap door on the side of the coach supplying a/c or heat depending on the time of year! They would then attach power cords to the built in electrical outlets on the coach! This practice stopped in the early eighties due to problems with driver s forgetting to remove these items before departing! The PABT in NYC retained this setup when the North wing was built in 1980!

Generally you' aren't supposed to idle buses at meal stops except in extremely cold/hot weather but I will idle a coach if the battery gauge is hovering at or below 24 or if they had to jump the bus to start it! Also at night in a G model as you are only supplied 1 light tube with the master switch off, which won't properly light up the coach at night!


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## fishbusone

Drivers may manually program the signs by using a master manual input code! The sign NEW YORK CITY as opposed toNEW YORK NY is an example of that! You can tell if it is manually input by looking at the lower left corner of the sign as one led will light in that area of the sign when manually input! After 13 characters are entered, a manual sign will move from left to right as opposed to standing still! Some of the signs do have P/R codes that will display in addition to the regular destination!


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just heard they sent a X3-45 on Denver-El Paso even though it was based in the East. Greyhound needs to get their dispatching straight. I don't know why they sent a Blue G to the East and a X3-45 down to El Paso. Perhaps there was too much Package Express? Well, now that X3-45 is going to have tons of trouble trying to get back east. And apparently Denver Maintenance refuses to fix X3-45s.

Also, I heard 1684 had a double that was a White G! They must have had tons of Package Express to not send out the X3-45. 1684 got delayed due to snow.

Anybody know what "peddle down" means? And is a "double" an extra section? I think that's what it means since 1684's double would've been 1684-2.

If I were the dispatcher, I would've sent the X3-45 back east to New York City and the Blue G to El Paso or maybe Portland. This doesn't make sense. All I can say is that maybe Greyhound has too much Package Express to haul. Denver should be all-Blue G in that case. X3-45s should stay East. I wonder if Denver-El Paso has much GPX, probably not.


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## railiner

fishbusone said:


> Years ago, most major stations did supply hotel power to the coaches! The stations used ceiling hoses that would connect to a trap door on the side of the coach supplying a/c or heat depending on the time of year! They would then attach power cords to the built in electrical outlets on the coach! This practice stopped in the early eighties due to problems with driver s forgetting to remove these items before departing! The PABT in NYC retained this setup when the North wing was built in 1980!
> 
> Generally you' aren't supposed to idle buses at meal stops except in extremely cold/hot weather but I will idle a coach if the battery gauge is hovering at or below 24 or if they had to jump the bus to start it! Also at night in a G model as you are only supplied 1 light tube with the master switch off, which won't properly light up the coach at night!


Welcome to the forum!

Yeah...I remember when they had those A/C-Heater units supply air via those big yellow hoses...the MC-6,7,8,and early 9's I believe, had those ports just below and aft of the driver's window. You had to loosen a wing nut to open them, and they fed the driver's side air duct. Some driver's used them on other types by just sticking the hose into the toll window...

The electric cord was used to light up the center florescent ceiling lights on the MC-6 and MC-7. Those lights could not be used at all on internal power...

The first MCI coaches with internally powered florescent's, I believe were the 96 and 102A's......


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## Swadian Hardcore

Crashed MC-12 #2048 now abandoned: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomashawk/16801969167.

So, apparently, Greyhound Denver is "hoarding" X3-45s for use in the West. I don't understand this either. I thought Dallas did all the dispatching. Rumors are that Denver either has no X3-45 parts or doesn't know how to maintain X3-45s. I'd lean towards the former.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> That's actually not a bad idea. Tho shore power can be a problem when it comes to cost. Another option would b auxiliary power units. Yes, they take up some room but are worth it. A lot if trucks have them, they operate hvac and most electrical systems. They also will start automatically when the engine is shut off and run off either diesel from the vehicle tank or off of batteries that recharge while driving. The one that I had on the truck I drove would also keep the engine block and oil warm in the winter so it wouldn't freeze up. Greyhound would benefit from it a lot.


Most of our buses have some type of Webasto or other preheater, that can be set to run on a timer, or turned on manually. They help heat up a cold engine. The ones in the Van Hools even circulate hot water thru the coach 'baseboard' heating system. All while the engine is shut off, or started for faster warm-ups.

As for "APU"'s ....don't most motorhome or entertainer coaches have some type of generator set in the baggage bay or roof mounted?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I just heard they sent a X3-45 on Denver-El Paso even though it was based in the East. Greyhound needs to get their dispatching straight. I don't know why they sent a Blue G to the East and a X3-45 down to El Paso. Perhaps there was too much Package Express? Well, now that X3-45 is going to have tons of trouble trying to get back east. And apparently Denver Maintenance refuses to fix X3-45s.
> 
> Also, I heard 1684 had a double that was a White G! They must have had tons of Package Express to not send out the X3-45. 1684 got delayed due to snow.
> 
> Anybody know what "peddle down" means? And is a "double" an extra section? I think that's what it means since 1684's double would've been 1684-2.
> 
> If I were the dispatcher, I would've sent the X3-45 back east to New York City and the Blue G to El Paso or maybe Portland. This doesn't make sense. All I can say is that maybe Greyhound has too much Package Express to haul. Denver should be all-Blue G in that case. X3-45s should stay East. I wonder if Denver-El Paso has much GPX, probably not.


A 'double' is a second section.

Where did you hear "peddle down"? In what context? Back in the CB Radio days...."Put the pedal to the metal", or "Hammer Down", was a common slang term to indicate that "Smoky The Bear".(state trooper's) were not around, and that it was 'safe' to speed above the "double-nickel" 55 MPH national speed limit.... 

Agree with your assessment of equipment usage. I will say that sometimes, a driver may find a coach defective, and may choose whatever else is handy, to avoid delaying a departure any further. So sometimes the "wrong bus" may be sent on a schedule. Eventually it will be sent back "where it belongs."


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## mightyjoe1201

Yes they do. A friend of my boss drives a prevost entertainer bus that has it in the baggage area. Don't know if it is all electric or if it's diesel powered tho. He says it does a pretty good job. It looks like it doesn't take up much space either


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## Swadian Hardcore

Earl said it was "1684 eastbound peddle down", in that context.

What I really found weird is the report that Denver was "hoarding" X3-45s. They've been (rarely) running X3-45s on Denver-Portland instead of the standard D4505 or Blue G. Heck, all the Denver routes seem to see all the bus models.

Anyway, I found this presentation on engine fires: http://www.buses.org/files/BISC/2014_winter/presentations/Huczek-Jason-Motorcoach-Fires.pdf.

They showed models of MCI, Prevost, and Van Hool engine compartments, explaining why fires happen.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Earl said it was "1684 eastbound peddle down", in that context.


"Eastbound and Down" by Jerry Reed...make sure you've "got your ears on" for this link.....enjoy.....


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## fishbusone

We'll NYC had six G models including a non refurbed G model in a one hour span so fleet is just trying to move the masses in leiu of pool assignments! ( I myself borrowed a former Rockford Peoria G model for a eastern overnight return assignment!)! By the way three of the G models came from other companies!


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## fishbusone

Garages tend to only stock parts for the equipment prevalent in that region! A perfect example is NYC not even stocking turn signal bulbs for G models!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Man, I haven't heard of Peoria-Rockford in a long time! Did you happen to note any of the G numbers? Which one was Peoria-Rockford? I heard #40205 from Vermont Transit got repaired after being smashed in "The Dark Knight Rises."

So I guess New York city don't have turn signal bulbs for D4505s either as those have the same headlights as the G's. This explains why Kit was so uptight about Greyhound using a malfunctioning X3-45 on the Denver-Reno. He said it came from the East and already had HVAC problems running to Denver, then the Denver guys wrote it off saying they couldn't fix it, and the dispatcher put it on 1347 to Reno! Kit says it should've gone back East for repairs instead of going farther west to Reno.

He always reports problems with the buses he drives. I saw him reporting "low transmission fluid" on #UT86398 after pulling in from Denver/Salt Lake City overnight. Hopefully the Reno guys added more before sending it back to SLC.

Honestly, I see that moving equipment around could get really bad fast. Perhaps the last "freezing cold passengers" incident could have been prevented if the X3-45 hadn't been dispatched to Minneapolis.


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## fishbusone

6998 is the coach I'm referring to! 40205 is a pretty solid bus! By the way all of the foreign g models are 2002 models with the poorly designed thermo king HVAC System! VTL actually put small fans on the windshields due to the poor design!

40205, 30522, 6998, 7061, and 7258!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Fishbusone, aren't you hemmt973? I remember reading your posts on GTE! I'm "JW",but I'm sure you knew that already.

Looks like GLC #1124 is Greyhound's worst DL3 at the moment, with heavily damaged seats: http://140735925.r.worldcdn.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Greyhound-Bus-to-Vancouver.jpg. 

The exterior is dirty and has no side dog logo: http://140735925.r.worldcdn.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Greyhound-Bus.jpg.

#1064 is the other one that seems to be really beat up. Both GLC.


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow. Those seats look like hell. I would hope at least some of those passengers complain about them. GLC should b ashamed to send a bus out with that much inside damage.

I hope they wash their buses every so often at major stations. I do know given what was on the ground in the pic it doesn't take long for the bus to get dirty. I've had a bus get dirty just traveling the few miles from our garage to our station in that stuff.


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## fishbusone

They do heavy internal cleaning every three months or so!


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## Swadian Hardcore

That one was reportedly running GLC 5161, Calgary-Kelowna. 5161 is the overnight "Koots" service via Lethbridge and Cranbrook on Crowsnest Highway; the exterior photo was taken after Castlegar when the bus broke down. It had run 7 hours in the snow. I found them on a blog post. What I really about the exterior was that the door is clean but the front and sides are both very dirty. The seats covers are the originals from 2000. #1124 used to be "Vancouver 2010" bus, with a Winter Olympics wrap: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1124.jpg. 

The other really shoddy DL3 is this: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1064.jpg. 

And then you have #1063 which is carrying only stripes and legal lettering: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1063.jpg. 

So many weird liveries at GLC with either no dog logo or no lettering.


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## rickycourtney

Saw G4500 #7173 on I-5 today heading north to Vancouver BC. It's sporting the blue livery.


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## railiner

We have one old J4500 (62980), with a light blue 'wrap-job' advertising some online travel site....I hate it! I am very much against all wrap jobs on buses....especially when they cover the entire rear and sides, including the windows.... I hope passenger's complain about the windows reduced visibility, but I doubt they will....

The extra revenue was too much for the 'boss' to resist, I suppose....I hear we may do some more, soon....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Weren't you guys were selling those J's? I saw tons of them for sale.

I agree, they suck for visibility. But companies will do anything for money.

Just found out that Greyhound has a contract with Holiday Inn for driver lodging. Is this nationwide or only in regions? No activity on GTE.


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## railiner

Yes, we are selling the J's....but not all at one time....a few each year, as we get new deliveries.

*

Re: GL lodging....they are still using the old driver's dormitory in the MTA (former GL) garage here in NYC. I don't know where they send the occasional overflow..


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey Railiner, here's another series of blog posts on Greyhound:
https://habitualrunaway.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/bussing-across-canada/
https://habitualrunaway.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/bussing-through-bc/
https://habitualrunaway.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/entering-alberta/.

OK, just found out Greyhound contracts with La Quinta in Oakland for driver lodging. I assume this includes San Francisco layovers as well. All Greyhounds in and out of SFD deadhead to OAK for servicing.


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## rickycourtney

I think it's very interesting that Greyhound still owns and operates driver dormitories at some of its terminals. It seems somewhat rare in this day and age.

I think Amtrak has contracts with hotels in certain cities (I guess where they can fill a lot of rooms) but on the San Joaquin all the crew members had CheckINN cards. It's a national program that pairs employees with cheap hotel rooms.


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## railiner

Yes...the driver dorms are a real 'throwback' to the early days (1920's -1960's) of Greyhound history, when many of the old art-deco terminal's had driver dorms built in, usually on the second floor....shades of the even older 'Railroad YMCA' dorms located in many railroad yards and stations for train crews...

The two level dorm in the former (now MTA) Greyhound garage basement, was perhaps one of, if not the last one built (1968). When the old Greyhound Corporation divested the bus line, much of the expensive real estate was not included. Since the MTA acquired it from the corporation, they had no use for the dorm, and it could not be easily converted into any other use for them, so they leased it to GL, and it was a good deal for all.

I wonder how many other dorms are still in use around the Greyhound system?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just did my daily browsing on Flickr and saw that Mel has just posted a photo of #7160 rolling around without part of its bumper. I must admit my shock at seeing such heavy damage on a blue Greyhound: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/16429104593/sizes/l.

Furthermore, the headsign is displaying "GO GREYHOUND".


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## railiner

A couple of white G's have found their way into the Academy lot...


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## rickycourtney

Well that's the thing about fiberglass... it looks good, but it isn't very resilient. One slow speed crash and it's done.

Also this _is the G4500_ we're talking about here. Just because they gave it a cost of fresh blue paint doesn't mean it still won't fall apart after a few years.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The same thing happened with a D4505. I saw it in San Francisco. It wasn't a Greyhound D4505, but it was a D4505. Entire bumper was gone. Looks like the D4505 is the new equivalent of the G4500.

I wonder if the same thing would happen with the J4500. Those are not exactly known for durability. I'd certainly prefer rubber bumpers over fiberglass. The old DL3s did it right.

Here's an old MC-8 in Denver with aluminum bumpers: http://wyomingcreativearts.org/images/joomgallery/details/wyoming_area_creative_arts_community_40/arnie_lahds_gallery_18/denver_bus_station_in_morning_light_20120424_1241805225.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

Fiberglass bumpers have pretty much been the industry standard since the E4500 first hit the streets. They're stylish and they provide a level of energy dissipation similar to a rubber bumper. But the downside is they're brittle and usually break when they're struck.

About the only bus that still comes standard with a rubber bumper these days is the X3-45, although they're still available as an option on the D4505 & D4500CT.

But Greyhound has not opted to spec the rubber bumpers on their D4505 purchases, so it must value the aesthetics of the fiberglass bumper over the durability of the rubber bumper... or they don't think rubber bumpers provide enough of a benefit to justify the added cost.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not sure if even the X3-45 still has a full rubber bumper. It looks like a composite bumper with a rubber strip over it. The H3-45 originally had a rubber bumper, but Prevost replaced it with a fiberglass bumper.

The thing is, when I knocked on the D4505 bumper, it felt like a stele bumper. It did not have the crisp sound that a fiberglass bumper feels like, such as the G4500 bumper. But I think it's just a different type of fiberglass, because I doubt the D4505 would have a steel bumper.

Greyhound's new X3-45s and D4505s also have aluminum wheels instead of steel wheels like all the previous models did. Aluminum looks better than steel, but steel is definitely more durable.

Perhaps a thin layer of Kevlar over the fiberglass bumpers would be best overall, even though Kevlar is expensive. The G4500s have Kevlar underneath their fiberglass outer shell. I think Kevlar smells in heat, which may explain why the G4500 has a distinct smell.


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## rickycourtney

Well no matter if it's covered in fiberglass or rubber... at the heart of a bumper is a metal bar that absorbs and dissipates energy in a crash.

But I think you're overthinking it. The fiberglass bumpers are perfectly durable in normal use if you don't bump into anything. But if you do... it really shouldn't be a tough fix. A competent mechanic should be able to replace one in just a few hours. To my knowledge they are just bolted on.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That reminds me, on GTE, I heard that Prevost's H3-45 uses embedded bolts that fasten the fiberglass/Kevlar outer shell to the stainless steel tubing frame. This was reportedly patented by Prevost, so MCI decided to simply glue on or clip on the fiberglass. The clips fail at high temperatures, so MCI told operators not to run their E/G/J models in "extreme conditions." All three MCI fiberglass models, plus the D4505, have all been reported with parts falling off. OTOH, no Prevost H3-45 has even been reported with such failures and their hatches don't even dislodge. I dug up tons of pictures of old H3-45s and they still have no damage more than wear and tear. The claim was that Prevost dropped a H3-45 from a crane and it took no damage.

So, the H3-45 is supposed to be the most durable bus in production, but it burns to a crisp if a fire breaks out.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So, the H3-45 is supposed to be the most durable bus in production, but it burns to a crisp if a fire breaks out.


Well that's how fire works... it burns stuff... even durable stuff.
Fires have become an industry wide issue now that emissions control systems are running a lot hotter (especially while regenerating). There isn't a whole lot that can be done other than proper maintenance (poor maintenance is responsible for most fires) and installing fire suppression systems as a last line of defense.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You have a good point. Greyhound's 86300s seem to catch on fire a lot more than the 86500s. I assume the 86500s have the latest Amerax fire suppression systems while the 86300s don't. Still, even a fire suppression system can't really prevent a fire, it can jut put out the fire before major damage is done to the bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, I found that H3-45 interior shot for you: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wltphotography/13526076953/sizes/l.

That is Greyhound's blue H3-45 interior. Unfortunately, those seats are American Seating 2000, or they could be Model 2004. The H3-45s must have different seats because the white H3-45 interior I found on a blog post was equipped with National 4210S.

Also, here's a Blue G interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wltphotography/13526051093/sizes/l.

Looks a lot like a J4500 interior with larger, open parcel racks. As you can see, the parcel racks are about as big as they can get to keep a somewhat spacious feeling. I figured they can't get wider and move inboard more because then passengers would have a hard time getting bags out without bumping into another passenger.

Edit: Hey, I just noticed that tons of guests view this page. Feel free to post if you have any questions.


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## rickycourtney

Those seats look sharp in Greyhound's black leather and I've actually sat in an American Seating 2000 before... they're okay. There are a lot more comfortable seats on the market, but they aren't nearly as bad the Premier.

It's interesting that they left the blue/green fabric on the headliner and rear bulkhead wall. Every tour company seems to use some variant of brightly colored fabric on seats, the headliner and the bulkhead walls, frankly it's almost always atrocious. I guess the blue/green color works for a bus that seems to be captive to the Seattle garage... those are Seahawks colors after all!

I think the width of the overhead bins on the G4500 is dictated more by where people start to duck as they enter the seats. You don't want to have the bins go all the way to the aisle because passengers need some room to lower their heads as they sit down in the window seat.

I don't know how much domestic air travel you do... but Boeing's new sky interior for the 737 is fantastic. The overhead storage bins are HUGE (they can easily hold 5 standard roll aboard bags) but they pivot up, so when they're closed, the cabin feels much larger. It's an incredible feat of engineering.






Also Alaska Airlines is installing these custom designed Recaro seats that are actually pretty fantastic for coach seats. I was skeptical at first because the backs are super thin, but the seat bottoms have very thick and the literature pocket has been moved to the top of the seat, giving you a lot more legroom. In the end, I don't think it really matters how thick the back of the seat is, since you don't put that much pressure on it. Each seat also has a 110v power outlet and a USB outlet so you can charge your laptop and smartphone at the same time.





Also MCI has released a picture of what the new PSU's on the J4500 with the fasten seatbelt light looks like... it looks nice!


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## Swadian Hardcore

I haven't done much domestic air travel recently, but I've flown on the 777 with the Sky interior. It's actually a pretty old interior. The 777 had it when it entered service in 1994. I just didn't like the 777 that much because I got a middle seat. I'd prefer flying on a 767 or A330/A340. Haven't flown on the 787 yet. 767s are awesome for us passengers, IMO.

I agree, the seat backs don't have to be too thick for comfort, but I think it's for safety with the new FMVSS rules. The Premier LS does a bad job because the seatbacks are quite think, yet they're flat and offer poor lumbar support. And we all know the seat bottoms are terrible. Amtrak's seats (don't know who made them), have fine seat bottoms, but the seat back is too thick and flat. A waste of space, if you ask me, but far more comfortable than a Painful Premier. BTW, the FAINSAs in the G4500s feel like shrunken Amtrak seats. FAINSA says they make train seats in Spain as well.


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## railiner

It appears that the Boeing overhead bins make use of the space that extends a bit above the cabin ceiling to the fuselage roof....space that doesn't exist in a bus. Only an 'Entertainer' coach might have that extra space capability....


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## rickycourtney

The FMVSS standards are about containing a passenger in the event of a crash... not keeping them comfortable in the event of a crash. I have a feeling if a thin back seat can stand up to the FAA standards... a thinner back bus seat can stand up to the FMVSS standards. Heck I think Amaya does make some seats with thinner backs now.

The G4500 had exceptionally large overhead storage bins, but that was because it was designed from the ground up to be a intercity coach. I honestly doubt we'll see another coach like it. Greyhound simply doesn't order enough coaches anymore to get major custom features from the manufacturer, let alone another custom coach.


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## railiner

I read where there were 25 102G3's built, of which GLI purchased 17. Anyone know how many 102GL3's or G4500's were built? And did GLI get all of them?


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## rickycourtney

25 102G3/G4100 coaches were built, 17 of them went to Greyhound, while the remainder went to other carriers including Coach USA, Academy, Martz, Peter Pan and Van Galder.

They were 40.5 feet long, which is actually the same length as the D4000, but with the G they rounded up instead of down.

Not sure how many G4500 coaches were built, but according to Greyhound's website the most G4500 coaches they had in the fleet was 295.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I searched and found that somebody asked the exact same question on GTE back in 2009. Here's the entire topic: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/topics/34602.

The production figures of the G4500 were broken down by a guy named Jim:


538 102G3s and G4500s were built. The 102GL3 was presumably renamed G4500 before production began and the G4100 was soon cancelled.
20 were built in Winnipeg, all went to GLI. The rest were all built in Sahagun.
449 in total were built for GLI, GLC, and subsidiaries SITA (Americanos/Cruceros), TNM&O, Vermont Transit, Carolina Trailways, and Peoria-Rockford.
Some of the GLI units had already burned or crashed before production was ended.
4 units were demonstrators.
86 (or 85?) were built for other operators.
He says 86 but the numbers don't add up unless it's 85 for other operators. Also, I think Jim made a mistake saying the G4500 had multiplexed electronics. I doubt such a "basic coach" would have multiplexing as early as 2001.

Rumors on the grapevine are that a planned Greyhound order for 100 units fell through and managers have been laid off in Dallas. Then again, these same guys said Greyhound was going to cancel Greyhound Express.

Perhaps Greyhound could ask MCI to slap G4500 bins in other models. I don't know how difficult that would be, but MCI managed to slap J4500-style bins into the latest D4500CT, so.....


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## rickycourtney

It's one of three things...

Greyhound is at a comfortable place at the moment (both in fleet size and reliability) thanks to the aggressive replacement and refurbishing programs of the last 7 years.

Greyhound is holding off on new bus purchases, waiting for Prevost, MCI or another company to put a new model out on the market that's better suited for intercity travel.

Greyhound managers are being told (for whatever reason) they can't order any new buses.

We've discussed it ad nauseum here... there are a lot of great features that Greyhound could order to make their buses more suitable of intercity travel. It seems to me that they have been choosing to order more "off the shelf" buses over the last few years. Makes me wonder if they are avoiding getting too many unique features, for fear that in the future it will become difficult to replace those unique parts. I sort of assume that's the problem with the G4500. If only 538 units were ever produced, it's got to be somewhat challenging to keep the remaining units on the road... especially as parts become more scarce as time goes by.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's probably why Greyhound started duct-taping the G4500s and then, per rumors, started substituting J4500 parts for that "treatment" that all the Blue G4500s went through.

Anyway, one more reason Greyhound isn't ordering buses right now may be because managers are getting fired and the company is going through an overhaul. Outsider like us can't see any evidence, so the best I have got is the grapevine of rumors.


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## Swadian Hardcore

On a different topic, I'm looking for other travel plans after I found evidence that Greyhound deployed D4505s on all runs south of Portland. I'm boycotting D4505s on medium- and long-distance routes after suffering extreme discomfort and nausea on #86352. I will not support Greyhound forever.

This YouTube videos shows Schedule 1443 Seattle-Los Angeles being operated by a Blue G4500 from Seattle to Portland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLwJEyeqopU.

But towards the end of the video, the driver announces that passengers continuing south to "...Eugene...Sacramento...Los Angeles" will have to change buses at Portland. So I clicked on the next video.

Lo and behold, it's a D4505 (23:06): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQihGUm8ko.

And if you view the next videos after that, it's the same D4505 all the way to Los Angeles. This confirms my suspicions that Greyhound's I-5 through routes get bus swaps in Portland. South of Portland gets a D4505, north of Portland gets a Blue G, regardless of whether the schedule is through or not. In Seattle, you would see the southbound runs signed "LOS ANGELES, CA", but the Blue G probably gets swapped with a D4505 in Portland.

The likely reason is that, like you said, the G4500 is out of production and parts are limited. So Greyhound concentrates parts in Seattle and doesn't want to spread out the Blue G's. I've seen some Blue G's in Los Angeles and Sacramento, but those were probably exceptions to the norm.


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## rickycourtney

So Swad I know Greyhound's maps are a bit of a sore topic for you, which is why I thought you'd be interested to see the Greyhound network map on the FirstGroup America website. It's not a terribly descriptive map, but I find it interesting that it shows the Greyhound and Greyhound Express networks in the US, the Greyhound Canada network and the lines of the affiliated carriers (Americanos & Crucero) in Mexico.


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## jebr

rickycourtney said:


> So Swad I know Greyhound's maps are a bit of a sore topic for you, which is why I thought you'd be interested to see the Greyhound network map on the FirstGroup America website. It's not a terribly descriptive map, but I find it interesting that it shows the Greyhound and Greyhound Express networks in the US, the Greyhound Canada network and the lines of the affiliated carriers (Americanos & Crucero) in Mexico.


How accurate is that map? Just as a few examples, I don't think there's a route from Winnipeg to the southeast (to the Northwest Angle area,) nor is there a bus from Minneapolis (or Grand Forks) to Winnipeg.

Also, many of the Greyhound US routes, at least in the Midwest, are no longer operated by Greyhound but rather by Jefferson Lines or another third-party bus company. (It doesn't show all of the Jefferson Lines routes, so I don't think it's attempting to show all of the interline carriers.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ha! That maps is even worse! They included a bunch of cancelled routes and a bunch of interline routes while omitting some of the Greyhound and interline routes. They also failed to account for the San Francisco-Reno, Denver-El Paso, and Dallas-Los Angeles Express routes. They also failed to account for the Los Angles-Vancouver Express, even though it's not really an Express not of SAC.

That map is so utterly horrible that I can't even list all the errors without great effort. Greyhound doesn't go to Yellowknife or Hay River anymore.


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## rickycourtney

The map is dated Summer 2014 so it's no doubt outdated, but it sounds like the map was outdated long before that.

The FirstGroup website has a few interesting facts, but I was amused by this description of Greyhound: "The only national operator of scheduled intercity coach transportation services in the US and Canada, serving 48 US States and ten Canadian Provinces and Territories."

While it's true that Greyhound is indeed the only national operator of scheduled intercity coach transportation services and Greyhound does provide service to all 48 continental United States... it's a weasel statement. Greyhound only provides service to the Dakotas by selling tickets on connecting regional providers (Jefferson Lines in this case).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Not only does Greyhound not serve the Dakotas, they also don't serve Nebraska. Like you said, they sell tickets on connecting carriers, but these carriers are separately-owned and completely separate from Greyhound in terms of operation. I'd say First Group may have intentionally done that to attract shareholders. Most people fail to read the "Carrier Code" when booking and some people have mistaken Barons Bus for Greyhound because Barons operates from Greyhound terminals and interlines with Greyhound.

At this point, it's just a pain in the butt to ride Greyhound, literally and figuratively. Finding maps and schedules is hard enough because so much info is outdated, bloated, or inaccurate. Avoiding the Painful Premiers is even harder.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Finding maps and schedules is hard enough because so much info is outdated, bloated, or inaccurate.


Thankfully it would seem most passengers simply use the online reservation system to find out schedule information. That information seems to be completely accurate. I'm willing to bet that even if Greyhound published accurate maps and schedules, many people wouldn't use them.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Avoiding the Painful Premiers is even harder.


Yup. The 102DL3 and G4500 units aren't getting any younger either. I'm curious when Greyhound will place a new order for buses... and if they'll ever decide to entirely replace the Premiers. It seems unlikely considering the cost and Greyhound can't even seem to be able to replace the cracked leather seat covers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I heard on GTE from our good member "fishbusone" that Greyhound "ran out of money". That seems likely since Greyhound has not ordered buses for awhile and has not replaced even the seat covers on the oldest Painful Premiers. The 2009 X3-45s have seats that could be replaced soon. If Greyhound doesn't have cash now, then they might as well wait a few years when they would be able to refurbish the 2009 units with all-new seats.

It seems unlikely that Greyhound will order any more new Premiers, so eventually, they will be completely eradiated from the fleet.

Apparently, Greyhound's original plan was to order X3-45s and D4505s while remanufacturing all the 102DL3s and retrofitting lifts, retiring the G4500s. Low on cash, Greyhound ended up not putting lifts in some of them and sending those to Canada. Then they probably ran out of money by ordering 220 buses in 2013 along with 55 additional X3-45s added later. So they stopped the DL3 reman program and refurb'd the G4500s instead, which already have lifts. They also cancelled half the D4505s.

Now the white ADA-incompliant DL3s are being sold off.


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## rickycourtney

Minor correction to your facts...

In 2013 Greyhound initially ordered 60 X3-45 coaches and 130 D4500 coaches. While it's true that 30 of those D4500 coaches were cancelled, that's far from half, and at the same time Greyhound increased the X3-45 order to 90.

The rest of your theory about the 102DL3 seems plausible, although I'll point out that money may not have been Greyhound's only motivating factor. Remember, they were running out of time to meet a deadline for all coaches to have wheelchair lifts.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, I believe Greyhound initially ordered 220 units in 2013, composed of 90 X3-45s and 130 D4505s. 55 more X3-45s were added on top of the 90, to make for 145 new X3-45s. Greyhound never officially cancelled any of the 130 D4505s. Instead, they deferred payments on 48 of the D4505s and only took delivery of 82 D4505s from that order. Of those 82, 14 went to BoltBus (#0887-0901) and the other 68 to Greyhound Lines (#86500-86567).

A few more D4505s and D4500CTs were added as state-owned units. But Greyhound definitely did not take delivery of 100 D4505s from that order.

According to Texas DMV, Greyhound recently took delivery of one more D4505, #86577, which is a 2015 D4505. This D4505 may include new seating. This suggests that the state-owned units are #86568-86576, with the later ones being D4500CTs. Also, the D4500CTs reportedly have MassDOT specs, without Painful Premiers, and are only used out of Boston. If these have different seats, Greyhound could be testing those seats in their own new D4505 #86577.


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## rickycourtney

You're right, my bad.

The 2013 order was for 90 X3-45s and 130 D4505s... but it appears that the 90 number was inclusive of 60 X3-45s that were ordered in 2012.

Officially Greyhound reports that as of May 2014 there are 188 D4505s and 280 X3-45s in the fleet.

By my notes that includes:

88 2010 D4505

100 2013 D4505

190 2008/2009 X3-45

90 2012/2013 X3-45

55 2014 X3-45 (these coaches aren't included in Greyhound's official numbers)

Note that the official model year for these buses might be slightly off (a 2010 purchase might be a 2011 model year). I have press releases or articles in trade publications to support all of those numbers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

According to Texas DMV which has the complete VINs, Greyhound had 108 2010-2011 D4505s, but many of the later ones are state-owned. These were probably all 2010 builds, with some 2011 model years. Their engine code is all "H" (7th digit of VIN), denoting Detroit Diesel Series 60 14L EGR, which was unavailable by mid-2011, according to the Internet Archive. Their numbers are #86300-86407. However, three have been destroyed by fire, leaving 105.

If you take 105 and add on the 68 delivered in 2013 (#86500-86567), that makes 173 units. Then add on the state-owned units and some units transferred from subsidiaries (Americanos & TNO), and you would have 188 units. I believe these do not include the 14 BoltBus units.

As for X3-45s, I don't have the exact numbers, but I do know Texas DMV reports that Greyhound has 340 X3-45s, Americanos has 14, and BoltBus has 70. Greyhound Canada got 18 from the US. Greyhound probably reported the 280 figure before the 55 newest units were delivered, and 5 could have been left out for various reasons.


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## rickycourtney

Also, I hate to burst your bubble but… I highly doubt that Greyhound will replace the Premier seat frames anytime soon. I fully expect that at some point they will give the seats new leather covers, but it's probably just too expensive to justify replacing the seat frames.

Look at what happened on the 102DL3 and G4500 rebuilds… they kept the old seat frames but gave the seats new leather covers.

I know the premieres are extremely uncomfortable but I just don't see it being in Greyhound's budget to replace the seat frames on nearly half of the fleet (500+ buses).


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## Swadian Hardcore

So now you understand why I am pissed at Greyhound. But whatever, they'll fix it eventually. I just hope they don't replace it with other American Seating.


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## rickycourtney

Question... did the 102DL3s always the Amaya Patriot PT seats or were the original seats replaced at some point?


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## mightyjoe1201

Was just in NYC for the day and saw x3-45 #86222 and blue g #7265. I think those are the numbers. Now got a question. Does greyhound have any j4500's? I swore I saw one pass us going they other way in the blue greyhound livery.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, Greyhound has some J4500s. They have 8 ex-Coach America and 4 ex-Americanos J4500s.

The 102DL3 didn't always have Amaya Patriot PT. They started off with FAINSA Brasils, which were replaced by the Patriots starting in 2004.

Original interior: http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/busfan/6950int.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

Hmm... so the FAINSA Brasils lasted in some cases around 6-8 years. That's not a very long life on those seats considering the same seats are now 12-14 years old.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I guess when Greyhound started replacing the seats in the 102DL3s in 2004, the G4500 seats of the same type were too new to be replaced. Greyhound was planning early retirement for the G4500s but ended up not doing it for whatever reason. They retired some G4500s in 2009, presumably to replace them with X3-45s, but halted it because the G4500s had wheelchair lifts and the MC-12s didn't. So the MC-12s were retired first, the last leaving in 2012. Then Greyhound resumed replacement of the G4500s, but lack of funds must have halted that again and the better G4500s were saved and rebuilt instead.

Hence you have the current situation of old FAINSA Brasils in Greyhound's G4500s. The same seats equipped the late-model MC-12s, 102D3s, and 102DL3s, but all those buses got new Amaya Patriot PTs starting in 2004. Before 1996 or 1997, Greyhound used National Seating. The MC-12s with Nationals were prematurely retired and replaced with G4500s.


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## rickycourtney

So I rode a pair of Sound Transit's D4500CL coaches yesterday, one a 2008 model year, the other a 2010. Both were equipped with 57 American Seating model 2095 seats. They were reasonably comfortable. Much better than the Premier, but not nearly as good as Amaya's seats.

Also interesting the 2008 coach tended to shutter quite a bit as it idled at a stop, while the 2010 drove much more smoothly.

Sound Transit also opted for a solid surface headliner which had a design kind of like marble, presumably to hide any grime. It's in my opinion, a much nicer look than the brightly colored carpet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 2008 rattling and the 2010 not rattling may be an example of MCI's inconsistency in construction these days. Their roof in now segmented and glued, unlike the old roofs that were riveted. Other parts are also increasingly glued instead of riveted or welded. This can lead to increased rattling.

Did the D4500CTs tilt much when turning? When I ride D4505s, I notice that some of them tilt much more than others, especially when turning at high speed. The 102DL3 barely tilts at all. The D4505 also brakes much rougher than both the 102DL3 and X3-45, though Van Hools are the roughest when stopping fast.

I agree the 2095 is much better than the Premier, but still much worse than anything from Amaya, FAINSA, or National. The American 2004 is probably the second worst after the Premier. It was very hard when I tried it out in Las Vegas.


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## rickycourtney

The rattling actually seemed more like an issue with the drivetrain (either the engine or transmission), but the build quality of the coach could certainly have increased the rattling sounds.

I honestly didn't notice much leaning, but I wasn't really paying attention to that. It was a very comfortable ride overall, especially when you compared to the transit buses Sound Transit has converted for commuter service. My only major issue with these buses is that you can't really use them on a service with intermediate stops and loading wheelchairs is a difficult process.

I'm not sure why you'd find the 2004 much more uncomfortable than the 2095, seeing as they are a part of the same 2000 series family of seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 2004 is narrower, but I didn't find it much worse than the 2095. Still, all of these are bad.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound just unleased a new ad campaign proclaiming "LEATHER SEAT, FREE WI-FI, AND POWER OUTLETS ON EVERY BUS." Sounds like the White G4500s are gone or all in storage.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm going to the museum of bus transportation in Hershey, PA on Saturday for their annual spring fling. There are supposed to b buses from all over there. Greyhound sometimes brings some brand new ones. If I can I'll get some pics for you guys of the outside and inside if they let us get on them to look.

Swadian, if one if their reps are there I'll try to find out about the white g' s for you.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw some pictures on Flickr of a bunch of White G's at Greyhound Dallas Maintenance Center. I think they were still operational, but just in storage. Most of them were in terrible shape. Admittedly, even though those things are huge dirty and unreliable POS's, they still have better seats than the new buses.

Here's #7039 that someone caught in DLD: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17422867822/sizes/l.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound just unleased a new ad campaign proclaiming "LEATHER SEAT, FREE WI-FI, AND POWER OUTLETS ON EVERY BUS."


Where did you see this? Link?


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> I'm going to the museum of bus transportation in Hershey, PA on Saturday for their annual spring fling. There are supposed to b buses from all over there. Greyhound sometimes brings some brand new ones. If I can I'll get some pics for you guys of the outside and inside if they let us get on them to look.
> 
> Swadian, if one if their reps are there I'll try to find out about the white g' s for you.


I'll be there, weather permitting....I'll be wearing a white T-Shirt, with a blue PD-3751 'Silversides' on it....the only day of the year I'll wear it...


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## mightyjoe1201

I will have a hat with a gm old look on it that says Quinn's transit. I couldn't tell you what kind of clothes other then jeans I'll have on. I'll b the younger guy with a short beard and fat. Lol


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## mightyjoe1201

Watching our local news there was an academy bus involved in a deadly wreck on I 380 herd in north east pa. The bus driver and several passengers were killed


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## Swadian Hardcore

I couldn't find a link, but I got a screenshot of the ad.

If you guys ever see me, I'll be a younger, thin Chinese guy with a buzzcut. Don't know what I would be wearing on that day, though. Probably jeans or khakis for a casual occasion. If I'm traveling on Greyhound and in a good mood, I'll have my handmade Greyhound fan stickers.

Greyhound Ad.pdf


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I couldn't find a link, but I got a screenshot of the ad.


Well it's about time! I knew this promotion was coming eventually. I applaud Greyhound for their effort to really refresh and modernize the fleet (despite the questionable decision to go with the Premier seats).


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## rickycourtney

Totally off topic, but I had to share.

I spotted Boeing's newest product in Seattle today. I think it's a 7B7-400.




If you don't get the joke, look closely at the panel just in front of the rear tires.

It's actually a D4000, owned by Boeing, that was being used to transport people to a private event at the Seattle Aquarium.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I see remarkable parallels between the Premier seat and the G4500 bus. Both were products designed and built with Greyhound's needs in mind and both were highly touted, but both failed miserably. Some G4500s have made a comeback as the Blue G4500, but others are FUBAR. The Premiers are probably going to have to hang on till they get replaced.

In the future, I hope Greyhound will no longer order Premiers. Greyhound has no orders this year so far. They may make an order later this year, as the White G4500s still haven't been replaced; they were simply put into storage and are still being photographed.

Boeing's D4000 looks like an older one to me. It still has the double roof trim, suggesting a riveted roof, instead of the D4000CL, which has a bonded roof with single trim.


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## mightyjoe1201

Was at the Museum of Bus Transportation in Hershey, PA for their spring fling. Greyhound had x3-45 #86666 there. First time I got to see the inside if one if their prevosts. I was surprised there was absolutely no damage on the outside of the bus or the inside. Sorry I didn't get any pics. There were so many cool buses there that I was beside myself. Lol


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## railiner

It was a great show, wasn't it?

Sorry I didn't get to meet you there, but I did run into quite a few people that I did know, and many that after talking 'bustalk', knew a lot of other people in common...

The highlight to me was not part of the Museum collection, but instead, the 'visitor' in the driveway....the former Continental Trailways (Continental Central Lines), Silver Eagle model '05', 13542 in amazing original condition. It was almost like it was hidden away in a barn for thirty years, and just pulled out. Almost every last detail was original.

And its proud owner drove it all the way from Larkspur, Colorado....

Another treat was getting to 'drive' Burlington Trailways driving simulator, to see how well you can avoid hitting sudden obstacles. An amazing piece of equipment, set up in one of their old 'D' models.

Another interesting visitor was an MC-6 Supercruiser, although modified into a motor-home.

Some manufacturer's were represented with a new VanHool TX45, a Volvo 9700, and a MCI J4500. There was as mentioned, GL's X-3. And there was a new Capital Area Transit transit bus, and there were some school buses, as well.

The 'star' inside the museum was the Scenicruiser that was formally deeded over from ABC Bus to the Museum last night. Part of the agreement is that the current paint scheme "Faribo Lines" (honoring an ABC principal) never be altered, so it cannot be painted over into its original Greyhound livery....

I did not even get a chance to get over to the Annex, as I had to get back home early. I did score a few goodies at the sales tables to add to my collection....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, #86666? What a number! Did you try out the seats? They're really uncomfortable. But #86666 is brand-new and hasn't been broken in yet, so maybe the seats haven't started sagging yet. Shouldn't be any damage on a brand-new one.

I dropped by the Greyhound RNO terminal today. Trio of buses there, D4500 #6611 and D4505s #86312 and #UT86398 at Gates 1, 3, and 4, respectively. #6611 should be going out on the 1314 to Denver, #86312 on the 8317 to San Francisco, and #UT86398 on the 1308 tomorrow to Salt Lake City. I'm not sure what #UT86398 was doing at Gate 4; that's the San Francisco Express gate and it's a Utah-owned D4505. Also, both the D4505s had their doors open. I've got pictures, I'll post 'em later.

The station interior was clean and deserted, but the loading area was quite dirty. Greyhound should have someone clean it up. They did improve the station interior. Got rid of the old storage lockers and replaced them with a Refreshment Center. There's also new boarding lines with boarding groups ABCD (boarding number blocks). This is for all schedules, not just Greyhound Express.

Is the show open to everyone or just industry people?


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## mightyjoe1201

It was a great show. I think I may have passed u briefly. I was getting on the shuttle to go over to the annex. There were do many great buses there.

I was going to take my god son in the simulator but we never made it in. Lol. I was surprised to see that the "D " it was in was a manual transmission. All the other d models I've seen were automatics.

I wad thrilled to finally get to see a mc6 in person, only ever saw pics of them.

I hope you got to see my bosses old look


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, it's open to the public. If you are out east here next year when they have the spring fling you should drop by. Check out their website for the museum. Its bus museum.org. you'll enjoy what you see


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## Swadian Hardcore

What kind of manual was it? A Fuller T-11607D? Greyhound Canada had some 102D3s and 102DL3s with that transmission. All have been sold off, though. The ones with manuals also have silversides.

Probably won't be able to get out east much, but I could try. Used to live in Philadelphia.


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## mightyjoe1201

Don't know the particulars on the tranny, only that it was manual. Every time I tried to talk to the driver someone else was talking to him.

Well, if you do ever find yourself out this way you have yo go to the museum. Its also part of the aaca antique car and motorcycle museum


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## railiner

Not sure, but the tranny should be the same as the one's that were in the GLC buses. The last examples were seven-speeds. IIRC, MCI only offered one type of manual as a factory option. That is, unless you would classify our Eaton-Fuller semi-automatics as 'manuals'...

I did see your 'Old-Look' parked over there next to the visiting historic NJT fleet. It looked as good as new!


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## mightyjoe1201

The semi-automatics you guys have. Are they the auto shift it ultra shift from Eaton fuller? If so then yes

They are technically manuals.

Thanks. My boss just mainly had to paint it when he got it. That's the first bus he ever drove.


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## railiner

We got rid of our last Eaton-Fuller a few years ago. Most of our driver's, especially the younger ones who never drove our full manual four or five speeds, hated them.

They had a clutch pedal which you had to use to get started from a stop, or to go into reverse. I hated them because their ten speeds took forever to accelerate compared to our four or five speeds, or our fully automatic Allison's. Its the same thing today...we have ZF and Volvo I-shift semi-automatic 12-speeds, that while they no longer have a clutch pedal, they too take much longer to accelerate than our Allison's....

Perhaps I saw you too, I noticed several guys wearing the 'Quinn' caps ....


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## mightyjoe1201

I agree with u on those god awful trannies. Lol. When I drove truck I had both with and without clutches. Hated both of them. The clutchless was really horrid trying to back into a dock door because you couldn't hold the truck in to see the brakes let a line ease it in without bouncing off the dock a dozens times.

I was the youngest one there with the Quinn hat. I'd say shortest but my boss is shorter then me, plus I'm the only one that had a beard


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## mightyjoe1201

We have one bus with an Allison backing up a 50 series Detroit. Compared to our Cummins with voith transmissions it takes forever to accelerate. But I wouldn't trade it for the other junk we have. Lol


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## Swadian Hardcore

A GTE member explained to me that the Fuller T-11605D was a 5-speed and the Fuller T-11607D was a 7-speed. GLC had T-11607Ds on their silverside 102D3s and 102DL3s, but I think the 5-speed was also an option. I don't believe GLI ever used these, their DL3s all had Allison B500s or ZF 12-speeds. I think all the rebuilt DL3s have B500s.

ADI's Eaton-Fullers were on the 102D3s, right? I just don't see why operators keep ordering 10-speed and 12-speed transmissions. Do they really save fuel compared to the B500? I thought the axle ratio was more important.

Greyhound's late-model MC-12s had the Detroit 50 engine with Allison B500, but the last gear was locked out, so they ran as 4-speeds.


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## railiner

I have driven GLC's with 5 speed manuals...they were in their late MC-9's and some 102C3's.

ADT and PHK equipped Eaton-Fuller's were in the 102D3's...so you are correct there. They do save marginally on fuel, compared with a torque converter automatic like the Allison. Or at least they did back then. I believe the latest Allison's are very competitive with the automated manuals in recent tests....and they are certainly smoother and faster accelerating.

An interesting tidbit...ADT never had an Allison 'World Transmission' (B500), until we got our state funded three D4505's. And then our newest Van Hools also came with them.

Our driver's love that tranny....

Our early MCI and Eagle Allison's were the earlier model HT-740....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm guessing GLC ordered 5-speed manuals on the MC-9SP and 102C3, then switched to 7-speed manuals for the 102D3 and 102DL3. How did those old manuals compare to the HT-740 and B500?

Greyhound is currently publically supporting the B500. I think the only Greyhounds with other transmissions are some 2006 D4505s with the ZF As-Tronic and maybe some second-hand buses. There were a few ZF-equipped DL3s for sale not long ago.


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## railiner

railiner said:


> I have driven GLC's with 5 speed manuals...they were in their late MC-9's and some 102C3's.
> 
> ADT and PHK equipped Eaton-Fuller's were in the 102D3's...so you are correct there. They do save marginally on fuel, compared with a torque converter automatic like the Allison. Or at least they did back then. I believe the latest Allison's are very competitive with the automated manuals in recent tests....and they are certainly smoother and faster accelerating.
> 
> An interesting tidbit...ADT never had an Allison 'World Transmission' (B500), until we got our state funded three D4505's. And then our newest Van Hools also came with them.
> 
> Our driver's love that tranny....
> 
> Our early MCI and Eagle Allison's were the earlier model HT-740....


My bad....I was just re-reading this post, and it struck me....our early model 'J's' have the World tranny..... :blush:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Got the pics.

So I figured out that #6611 was on overnight layover for the next day's departure to SLC (Sked 1308) and UT86398 was the bus to DEN (Sked 1314). And of course, the other D4505 would be going to SFD.


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## rickycourtney

From my old station ABC30: Greyhound Bus Station in Downtown Fresno Moving Next to Amtrak Station


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## mightyjoe1201

Any one know if mci has always had bus leasing? I noticed at our station today that Fullington trailways had a bus leaded from mci


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> From my old station ABC30: Greyhound Bus Station in Downtown Fresno Moving Next to Amtrak Station


Probably a good move for Greyhound. They have probably have no need for the size of their current terminal, which receives a mere shadow of the service it once had. And they probably got a 'really good deal' on their rental fee for the new location...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I was at Frenso last November. Indeed, the service there is very lacking. There is a lot of empty space and no food service.

Joe, I think all the major manufacturers offer bus leasing. GLI leased some Setras and Silver State leased some Van Hools. But it probably isn't a good deal for long-term use. Fullington probably just needs extra capacity and is short of cash. Though, overall, Fullington seems to stagnating.

Saw GLI hiring ads. No newbies seen around here. Last year I saw newbie Loewy, but only once. Maybe he didn't get the job because he got lost repeatedly, somehow "broke" the computer, and drove aggressively. We waited by the curb while he troubleshooted the D4505 computer. He also failed to cool down the bus before boarding passengers and we were all sweating our [edited] off.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Any one know if mci has always had bus leasing? I noticed at our station today that Fullington trailways had a bus leaded from mci


I can't answer for sure...I recall when the old Greyhound Corporation owned MCI, they also owned Hausman Bus Sales, which was MCI's factory 'dealership'....Hausman was very active in bus leasing. Even New York City's MTA leased a bunch of white-painted ex-Greyhound MC-8's from them, when they had the 'grounding' of the Grumman 870's around 1980....

MCI, like most manufacturer's, also has a small fleet of 'demo buses', that they loan to prospective clients for evaluation....


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## Swadian Hardcore

2014 X3-45 #86297 suffered a HVAC failure in the Northeast. As far as HVAC goes, it seems the X3-45 is the least reliable.


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## tp49

Also from Ricky's old station:Judge Tosses Verdict In Greyhound Crash Trial Granting Motion For New Trial.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This case should be over already. It the SUV hadn't overturned in the first place, Greyhound wouldn't have crashed into it. Oh well.

And the driver had to have been wearing glasses. I wear glasses and can't drive without them at all. No way he would have his glasses in his pocket when driving. That pair must have been spares. The pair on his face could have been destroyed in the accident.

As for speeding, I doubt 5 mph over the limit would be enough to singly cause a crash. Many road vehicles go 5 mph over the limit at night when traffic is low. We're not talking about going 85 mph in a 65 zone. Visibility at night is poor and the D4505's maneuverability is very poor. Its responsiveness is also reportedly poor and has a "stiff" steering wheel intended to avoid overcorrections (as compared to the 102DL3).


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> Probably a good move for Greyhound. They have probably have no need for the size of their current terminal, which receives a mere shadow of the service it once had. And they probably got a 'really good deal' on their rental fee for the new location...





Swadian Hardcore said:


> I was at Frenso last November. Indeed, the service there is very lacking. There is a lot of empty space and no food service.


I can't say I ever stepped foot inside the old Fresno Greyhound station. It was a big building, but from the outside it looked like a dump.

I'm sure the City of Fresno, which owns the Santa Fe Depot, will give Greyhound a really good deal. Greyhound will be moving into space on the north end of the station that has sat vacant for years. Even if Greyhound pays below market rate (which they likely will), that's still better for the city than the nothing they were getting.

The Santa Fe Depot is a beautiful building and the surrounding area is much nicer than the area around the Greyhound station. Passengers will be within a short (<5 minute) walk to a Starbucks and a few restaurants (both affordable like Subway and nicer). The only major issue is that the long-term parking lot at the station fills up fast on most days and unless things have changed there's no other good option nearby for long-term parking.


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## rickycourtney

tp49 said:


> Also from Ricky's old station:Judge Tosses Verdict In Greyhound Crash Trial Granting Motion For New Trial.


I covered this story extensively when I worked there... and all these years later it's still interesting to follow the case.Admittedly I haven't been following it closely the last couple of years so I can't speak on any authority about any of the facts.

I will note though that a judge tossing a jury's verdict is rare... very rare. To my understanding, it really only happens when the judge thinks that the jury failed to consider a key piece of evidence or misinterpreted the law.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I can't help but feel that the judge may harbor personal feelings against Greyhound or big companies in general. Of course the judge would never say so publically, but I've just got this gut feeling. After all, Greyhound haters are everywhere and I've never seen a case when the judge tossed the jury's verdict.

At this point, as I see it, if Greyhound broke any laws, it would be going 5 mph over the speed limit. Some claim the D4505 had bad brakes, but there is no evidence and GLI is know for never deferring brake maintenance (they can defer anything other than brakes). Some claim the driver wasn't wearing his glasses, but that's inconceivable from my view as someone who also has poor vision. The evidence of the bent glasses from Jewett's pockets could have been his spares. I sometimes carry my glasses in my pockets when not in use, but there's no way I'm driving without glasses.

And again, most states consider vision as bad as 20/40 to be safe for driving without glasses. Anything worse than 20/40 without glasses would be nigh impossible for the driver to try without immediately crashing.

And then is 5 mph over the limit enough to cause a crash? Could going 5 mph slower have prevented the crash when the SUV had already overturned over the highway? Even if the SUV driver was sober Gonzales instead of drunk Garay, the SUV had still flipped over across the road before the D4505 hit it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Regarding Greyhound's new ad about the new amenities being on every bus, I've heard reports that Greyhound "lightly-refurbished" the remaining White G4500s with new seat covers and possibly a Wi-Fi router added. I doubt the White G's would have outlets installed, which would cost more money.

This may mean that Greyhound is not retiring the White G4500s until the next order of new buses.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks guys, just seemed odd to see a D4505 that was plain white except for the wording operated by mci Inc on the bottom of the luggage bays. Or was kind of beat up so I doubt it was a demo bus but who knows.

That lawsuit you guys are talking about. Is it a criminal case or a civil case?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think it is a civil case over money, rather than a criminal case. The D4505 driver and two passengers died in the crash, along with everyone in the SUV.

BTW, Greyhound is running some plain-white G4500s. Maybe these are the ones with the "lightly-refurbished" interior.


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## mightyjoe1201

If it's a civil case then it's not going to use the same reasoning ad a criminal one. Things that are considered evidence in criminal may get thrown out in civil. The court doesn't care who's actually at fault legally for the wreck, they look at who should have the biggest burden financially which usually means the bus driver and the bus company. It was the same in the trucking world. One of the favorite seasonings civil courts give for findings again a the bus driver/company is its a dangerous vehicle and shouldn't have been on the road. It happened to a friend of mine and he wasn't even legally at fault for the wreck. I wish greyhound and the drivers family luck there.


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## tp49

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I can't help but feel that the judge may harbor personal feelings against Greyhound or big companies in general. Of course the judge would never say so publically, but I've just got this gut feeling. After all, Greyhound haters are everywhere and I've never seen a case when the judge tossed the jury's verdict.
> 
> At this point, as I see it, if Greyhound broke any laws, it would be going 5 mph over the speed limit. Some claim the D4505 had bad brakes, but there is no evidence and GLI is know for never deferring brake maintenance (they can defer anything other than brakes). Some claim the driver wasn't wearing his glasses, but that's inconceivable from my view as someone who also has poor vision. The evidence of the bent glasses from Jewett's pockets could have been his spares. I sometimes carry my glasses in my pockets when not in use, but there's no way I'm driving without glasses.
> 
> And again, most states consider vision as bad as 20/40 to be safe for driving without glasses. Anything worse than 20/40 without glasses would be nigh impossible for the driver to try without immediately crashing.
> 
> And then is 5 mph over the limit enough to cause a crash? Could going 5 mph slower have prevented the crash when the SUV had already overturned over the highway? Even if the SUV driver was sober Gonzales instead of drunk Garay, the SUV had still flipped over across the road before the D4505 hit it.


To call the judge a "Greyhound hater" because he granted a motion for new trial is borderline libelous. You also don't practice law so just because you've never seen one granted doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They are rare, but they do happen and I've seen them happen. The public also isn't privy to all of the evidence presented at trial so things may have come out that you haven't heard. Last, there is an appeal mechanism available to Greyhound's counsel which if they believe the judge erred, they can take advantage of and they have at least 60 days to do so.

Finally, California is a "pure comparative fault" state when it comes to damage recovery and while the SUV driver has fault the judge probably believes that the Greyhound operator also has some percentage of fault as well. In some states if you're 50.1% at fault for your injuries you can't recover damages. California is not one of those places.


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## tp49

mightyjoe1201 said:


> If it's a civil case then it's not going to use the same reasoning ad a criminal one. Things that are considered evidence in criminal may get thrown out in civil. The court doesn't care who's actually at fault legally for the wreck, they look at who should have the biggest burden financially which usually means the bus driver and the bus company. It was the same in the trucking world. One of the favorite seasonings civil courts give for findings again a the bus driver/company is its a dangerous vehicle and shouldn't have been on the road. It happened to a friend of mine and he wasn't even legally at fault for the wreck. I wish greyhound and the drivers family luck there.


The Evidence Code is the same whether in a criminal or civil case. The only place I've seen it relaxed is in an administrative hearing (such as a DMV license revocation or Unemployment appeal.) The burden of proof is different in civil (a preponderance of the evidence) versus criminal (beyond a reasonable doubt.)


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## mightyjoe1201

Then if that's the case why do they throw out police reports as hear say? And what should it be the driver/company financially responsible if they ate nit at fault for the wreck? Shouldn't the people who caused the wreck be financially responsible? As in the driver if the suv in this case who already had wrecked and caused the bus crash.


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## tp49

They can throw out a police report as hearsay because by the very definition of hearsay it is.



> CA Evidence Code sec. 1200. (a) "Hearsay evidence" is evidence of a statement that was
> 
> made other than by a witness while testifying at the hearing and that
> 
> is offered to prove the truth of the matter stated.
> 
> (b) Except as provided by law, hearsay evidence is inadmissible.
> 
> © This section shall be known and may be cited as the hearsay
> 
> rule.


There are exceptions that might get a police report in but if it can't be cross-examined it's not reliable and can be excluded.

To answer your other questions (sorry I'll have to take them out of order to save some typing



> Shouldn't the people who caused the wreck be financially responsible?


Yes.



> And what should it be the driver/company financially responsible if they ate nit at fault for the wreck?


The argument is that the company is at fault for the bus wrecking into the SUV. Additionally, as stated above, in California even if you're 90% responsible for your own injuries under our "pure comparative fault" system you can still collect that 10% from the other party.



> As in the driver if the suv in this case who already had wrecked and caused the bus crash.


I think this is the point at issue. The argument made is "but for" the negligence of the Greyhound driver, the end result injuries and death would not have occurred. The claim is that the Greyhound driver was in some way negligent and that negligence led to the ultimate end result. This will be resolved either by a new trial, through the appellate court or via a settlement.

It is not my intent to litigate this matter here, just to provide some level of context. We'll see how things play out.


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## mightyjoe1201

tp49, I'm sorry but no matter what the laws might say in any state the civil courts are almost always biased against commercial drivers and their companies. You will never convince me that a driver has any financial responsibility In a situation like this unless they were the legal cause of the accident


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## Swadian Hardcore

tp49 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't help but feel that the judge may harbor personal feelings against Greyhound or big companies in general. Of course the judge would never say so publically, but I've just got this gut feeling. After all, Greyhound haters are everywhere and I've never seen a case when the judge tossed the jury's verdict.
> 
> At this point, as I see it, if Greyhound broke any laws, it would be going 5 mph over the speed limit. Some claim the D4505 had bad brakes, but there is no evidence and GLI is know for never deferring brake maintenance (they can defer anything other than brakes). Some claim the driver wasn't wearing his glasses, but that's inconceivable from my view as someone who also has poor vision. The evidence of the bent glasses from Jewett's pockets could have been his spares. I sometimes carry my glasses in my pockets when not in use, but there's no way I'm driving without glasses.
> 
> And again, most states consider vision as bad as 20/40 to be safe for driving without glasses. Anything worse than 20/40 without glasses would be nigh impossible for the driver to try without immediately crashing.
> 
> And then is 5 mph over the limit enough to cause a crash? Could going 5 mph slower have prevented the crash when the SUV had already overturned over the highway? Even if the SUV driver was sober Gonzales instead of drunk Garay, the SUV had still flipped over across the road before the D4505 hit it.
> 
> 
> 
> To call the judge a "Greyhound hater" because he granted a motion for new trial is borderline libelous. You also don't practice law so just because you've never seen one granted doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They are rare, but they do happen and I've seen them happen. The public also isn't privy to all of the evidence presented at trial so things may have come out that you haven't heard. Last, there is an appeal mechanism available to Greyhound's counsel which if they believe the judge erred, they can take advantage of and they have at least 60 days to do so.
> 
> Finally, California is a "pure comparative fault" state when it comes to damage recovery and while the SUV driver has fault the judge probably believes that the Greyhound operator also has some percentage of fault as well. In some states if you're 50.1% at fault for your injuries you can't recover damages. California is not one of those places.
Click to expand...

Excuse me, tp49! Go back and read my post again. I didn't not say that the judge is a Greyhound hater. I said I have this gut feeling that he has some "personal feelings against Greyhound." There's a big difference between that and being a Greyhound hater. I followed up by saying that there _are_ many Greyhound haters, but that does not mean I said that the judge himself was a Greyhound hater. There's a difference between public sentiment and personal feelings/opinions.

I know it _does_ happen, but I also know it does _not _happen often, that a judge tosses a jury's verdict. My point in "I've never seen a case when the judge tossed a jury's verdict" is not to say that it doesn't happen, but to illustrate how rare it is.

Then, in terms of evidence, there is no concrete evidence that Greyhound was negligent. There's only circumstantial evidence against Greyhound. There's no concrete evidence that Greyhound was speeding, that that particular D4505 had bad brakes, or that the driver was not wearing his glasses. There's evidence that the driver had glasses in his pockets, something that anybody with poor vision might have as a spare. A picture of the speedometer surfaced out of nowhere and doesn't prove anything unless someone can prove it was taken on that bus, that night, on that schedule.

You're not unbiased either, tp49, and I know from your past posts that you have your own personal feelings against Greyhound. There's stuff that's written in a book, and then there's stuff that's written in everyone's brain. One cannot ignore the intangibles that are not officially written in law.

If there's concrete evidence that Greyhound was negligent, then I'm convinced. Like I said, I won't support Greyhound forever and I don't like the D4505 in the first place. But there's no concrete evidence, so I'm with Joe on this one. If Greyhound gets punished for negligence without concrete evidence, then it's more anti-bus, anti-commercial-vehicle, and anti-corporate sentiment at work. Tomorrow I'll meet up with my lawyer friend and see what he thinks about this.


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## mightyjoe1201

Ok, all I'm hearing is that the court is looking to find out if greyhound was negligent but what about the suv? Did the driver of it or anyone else put up warning flares or triangles or anything for that matter to warn other motorists there was an accident before police arrived especially since it was at night?


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## tp49

mightyjoe1201 said:


> tp49, I'm sorry but no matter what the laws might say in any state the civil courts are almost always biased against commercial drivers and their companies. You will never convince me that a driver has any financial responsibility In a situation like this unless they were the legal cause of the accident


Wasn't trying to convince you, just illustrating why what happened did. Like I said, we'll see what happens down the road whether Greyhound appeals and the ruling is overturned (or not), a new trial makes the same finding (or not) or they settle. I'm sure their counsel will make the right decision for their client's interests.


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## mightyjoe1201

Why do I have the feeling you do not like any commercial drivers or bus/trucking companies? Your giving me the same nonsense that lawyers who specialize in commercial vehicle accidents gave me when I asked them about cases like this.


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## mightyjoe1201

On another subject, I've notice several times people have mentioned greyhound likes to deffer maintenance. Are they pushing intervals further apart or just not doing any?


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## tp49

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Excuse me, tp49! Go back and read my post again. I didn't not say that the judge is a Greyhound hater. I said I have this gut feeling that he has some "personal feelings against Greyhound." There's a big difference between that and being a Greyhound hater. I followed up by saying that there _are_ many Greyhound haters, but that does not mean I said that the judge himself was a Greyhound hater. There's a difference between public sentiment and personal feelings/opinions.
> 
> I know it _does_ happen, but I also know it does _not _happen often, that a judge tosses a jury's verdict. My point in "I've never seen a case when the judge tossed a jury's verdict" is not to say that it doesn't happen, but to illustrate how rare it is.
> 
> Then, in terms of evidence, there is no concrete evidence that Greyhound was negligent. There's only circumstantial evidence against Greyhound. There's no concrete evidence that Greyhound was speeding, that that particular D4505 had bad brakes, or that the driver was not wearing his glasses. There's evidence that the driver had glasses in his pockets, something that anybody with poor vision might have as a spare. A picture of the speedometer surfaced out of nowhere and doesn't prove anything unless someone can prove it was taken on that bus, that night, on that schedule.
> 
> You're not unbiased either, tp49, and I know from your past posts that you have your own personal feelings against Greyhound. There's stuff that's written in a book, and then there's stuff that's written in everyone's brain. One cannot ignore the intangibles that are not officially written in law.
> 
> If there's concrete evidence that Greyhound was negligent, then I'm convinced. Like I said, I won't support Greyhound forever and I don't like the D4505 in the first place. But there's no concrete evidence, so I'm with Joe on this one. If Greyhound gets punished for negligence without concrete evidence, then it's more anti-bus, anti-commercial-vehicle, and anti-corporate sentiment at work. Tomorrow I'll meet up with my lawyer friend and see what he thinks about this.


Mr. Swadian, you're right I am biased when it comes to Greyhound's customer service and the product they offer including things like state of the terminals, condition of buses, attitudes of employees, operating practices, etc. However, when it comes to something like this I leave that bias behind because there's no correlation between the two. The only evidence I am privy to is that which was reported in the Fresno media. The trial judge and jury are privy to all of the evidence offered in the case. If you know of any evidence that wasn't reported in the media I (and others reading this) would be happy to see it (not hear it only because we're not talking face to face.)

According to The order granting the new trial the court for reasons stated within found there was strong evidence that Greyhound was negligent it also found that the evidence relating to the element of causation was weak. Had the verdict form asked was Greyhound negligent and also asked about the causation element I'm fairly certain the motion would have been denied (I'm guessing that the jury instruction regarding causation wasn't given but that's only a guess.) However, because the verdict form only asked whether Greyhound was negligent we are where we are.

*edited to fix the link


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## tp49

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Why do I have the feeling you do not like any commercial drivers or bus/trucking companies? Your giving me the same nonsense that lawyers who specialize in commercial vehicle accidents gave me when I asked them about cases like this.


I like commercial drivers and bus/trucking companies just fine. They have a job to do just like I do.


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## mightyjoe1201

It doesn't sound that way. You were making it sound as if myself and every other bud and truck driver are unsafe. But whatever.


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## tp49

Nope, not at all, but I think we'd both agree that there are unsafe drivers within the ranks and that there are some companies out there who operate in an unsafe manner (*this statement is not being made as an indictment of Greyhound or any specific company.)

I look at these matters as I was trained to which is on a case by case basis and in this thread I am commenting on one specific incident.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Joe, that's just the way lawyers talk. They love to confuse you. My lawyer friend talks the same way. Some days they act like lawyers, other days they act like themselves. Don't fall into the traps that lawyers set. Lawyers, by nature and training, will talk sweet, then beat you up, then talk sweet again. A lawyer will try to convince you of something, then tell you he is not trying to convince you of anything. He will talk nonsense, then hit at your weak spots when you try to counter. Classic lawyer traps. But I can't blame them, because out-talking people is basically their job.

Go with your gut feeling. The US ended up losing the Vietnam War despite massive kill ratios and winning all the battles.

In fight-or-flight against a lawyer, if you fight, you must fight, attack, fight, attack, and fight to final victory. Don't let your guard down.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Anyway, Count John does not have enough assault infantry to finish off the enemy with a decisive assault on their fortifications. Now he is pulling back with Knights to train more infantry. 

If one wishes to further discuss the Fresno crash, perhaps a separate thread would be better.



mightyjoe1201 said:


> On another subject, I've notice several times people have mentioned greyhound likes to deffer maintenance. Are they pushing intervals further apart or just not doing any?


I think it's a combination of certain drivers not doing pre-trips, turn-and-burn dispatching, and high mileages on each coach.



mightyjoe1201 said:


> Ok, all I'm hearing is that the court is looking to find out if greyhound was negligent but what about the suv? Did the driver of it or anyone else put up warning flares or triangles or anything for that matter to warn other motorists there was an accident before police arrived especially since it was at night?


Reportedly, all the occupants of the SUV were injured or killed when the vehicle overturned. So no one could get out to put up any warning. Also, the dark underside of the SUV was facing oncoming traffic. A few cars were able to evade crashing, then the D4505 came by and failed to evade, resulting in the crash.


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## rickycourtney

Like with most major crashes involving loss of life there was a investigation into the crash, if memory serves it was conducted by the California Highway Patrol. The SUV lost control and had rolled over onto it's side and was resting with it's front facing the center median and it's undercarriage facing towards the direction of traffic. Therefore the Greyhound driver would have seen nothing but the dirty underside of a SUV in front of him, on a dark road. The occupants of the vehicle were either dead at that point or too severely injured to escape the wrecked SUV and deploy any sort of flare or safety triangle (which most non-commercial passenger vehicles don't have). None of that was disputed in the case.

What was disputed was if the Greyhound driver was negligent and should have done more to avoid the accident. The court found that the evidence showed that at the time of the collision the driver was going over the speed limit, was not wearing his glasses and was traveling in the number one lane, despite not passing another vehicle. Therefore, the driver was negligent and contributed, in part, to causing the crash.

So it might be one of those things that on a re-trial --like TP said-- Greyhound will be found partially at fault, say 10% and therefore the families will be able to collect that 10% from Greyhound.

I believe Greyhound did get a settlement against the family of the driver and collected $100,000 in damages. Greyhound also paid out millions in damages to the passengers onboard who were injured or killed.

Also realize that this case where the families of the young woman inside the SUV are suing Greyhound is just one of many lawsuits surrounding this accident. In fact, Greyhound also sued the driver of the SUV and was paid $100,000 in property damages, Greyhound sued the CHP for negligence in the response to the crash and lost, Greyhound was sued by the passengers in the bus and settled before trial and the passengers in the bus along with the family of the Greyhound driver sued the driver of the SUV and settled before trial.

Personally, I believe that the driver was an excellent man and likely a good driver. I remember we interviewed his family and he was clearly beloved. It was a heartbreaking interview, and I remember them saying how much he enjoyed his work. He likely had his reasons for why he was speeding, why he wasn't wearing his glasses and why he was in the number one lane, despite not passing another vehicle. I woudn't say any of those actions were reckless, but I do think they are --even at some small level-- negligent.

All that being said, it's been a few years since I've had to actively report on this crash and I'm saying most of this from my memory... which is admittedly a bit fuzzy.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I doubt the White G's would have outlets installed.


Well as long as we're talking about legal trouble... the ad you linked to specifically says "leather seats, free Wi-Fi and power outlets on every bus". If Greyhound is regularly operating buses that don't have outlets installed, that would be false advertising... something you can be sued for.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they could be sued for that. Then I guess the White G4500s do have outlets installed now. I've seen some of them in plain-white livery, similar to the ex-Americanos DL3s. Those plain-white DL3s have gotten the new interior, so I guess the White G4500s have received the same treatment. Greyhound could have done it in-house at the Dallas Maintenance Center, explaining why a large amount of White G's were photographed at Dallas.


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## mightyjoe1201

tp49, yeah, unfortunately there are too many drivers and companies that are unsafe. I like greyhound to a point but even they have some drivers that shouldn't be driving.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, could they have moved the white G's to charter rather then have them on the line runs? From what I've seen you guys post about them they must've been pretty bad.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're right, Greyhound does have some drivers that are unsafe. Mostly extra drivers, I think. They seem to be mostly in the East, according to the grapevine and passenger complaints. Also, most of the deferred maintenance seems to be in the East. For example, a X3-45 with malfunctioning electronics was sent out West last year when I rode it. Denver apparently had no Prevost parts to fix it, since the X3-45 isn't common in the West, so it had to go back East for repairs, but not before venturing to Reno first.

Loewy wasn't a good driver but he wasn't particularly unsafe. He just got lost and drove aggressively, as in stomping on the accelerator and brakes. I think he was just inexperienced.

Greyhound customer service does suck, though I've found ways to compensate.

The White G's were supposedly to go to charter runs, but are still being used on line-haul out of the Dallas pool. I could see Greyhound getting sued, but not if they added Wi-Fi and outlets to the White G's. Despite their many problems, the White G does have well-padded seats, light weight, fast speed, immense driving range, and the best fuel economy in Greyhound's fleet. Of course none of that matters if one explodes, but a X3-45 has also exploded.


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## mightyjoe1201

Unfortunately every company has the unsafe drivers. The few greyhound drivers I've ridden with out east here were pretty safe. Yeah, they kinda were speeding but they weren't going any faster then the rest if traffic.

I've driven for some bug trucking companies that pull the same thing with maintenance issues. They tend to think it's cheaper to wait till you get back to your home terminal then elsewhere.

If the white G's haven't had the upgrades of WiFi etc, yeah they could b sued. But from my experience most of the general public is to stupid to notice. All they know is its a bus.

Tho if one does get filed who knows if it would be someone Taft had actually ridden a greyhound. A lot of people tend to refer to all line haul buses as greyhound including trailways. I've never understood that one.

Never been on a white G. I did think the blue g I was on was uncomfortable. If they are as good as you say it's a shame they turned into junk so quickly.

Any bus could explode given the right circumstances.

Any idea why they seem to have buses with such a long wheelbase out east here where it can make it hard to get around our narrow roads. I'd expect to see them more out west where there is more room.


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## mightyjoe1201

I apologize for the spelling errors. Fat fingers and small buttons plus auto correct sometimes gives me words I didn't type.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No problem. I have trouble with smartphones too, so I don't own/use one. A lot of people on the highways go over the speed limit because everyone else is speeding. Sometimes it's the safer thing to do rather than slow down and crash. But it's also illegal. Personally, I think it depends on the situation. I don't think anyone should go 10 mph or more over the speed limit. Some people go 85 mph on I-80 in Nevada; I think that is unacceptable.

It probably is cheaper to wait till the bus gets to home base. I don't think Greyhound Denver had X3-45 parts anyway. HVAC is hard to fix and requires specialized experts. What Greyhound did wrong is that the X3-45 had been reported with problems in Philadelphia, but they were not fixed and the bus went all the way to Reno, even though Philadelphia was its home base.

I'm still trying to find out if the White G has those amenities and if they are still running line-haul. Wouldn't Greyhound also get sued if one of their charter-only buses didn't have Wi-Fi? The White G on paper is awesome. That's why Greyhound bought so many. Not so great in reality.

I think a lot of people think line-haul buses are all Greyhounds due to interlining. Some people wrongfully think Greyhound is a bus manufacturer or bus model rather than a bus company. Other people think Greyhound is a government agency. Others think they are a huge corporation with a monopoly on all things bus-related. Obviously all these are myths, but there you go. Someone on Facebook claimed she was stranded in Casper, Wyoming, by Greyhound. But Greyhound doesn't even go to Casper. Another person thought Megabus and BoltBus were both owned by Greyhound; Megabus certainly isn't.

Then there's the famous 2013 case when passengers in Des Moines complained about being left in the cold by Greyhound. The case gained much publicity and there was a huge petition. But Greyhound doesn't go to Des Moines and their last bus had left in 2012. It was Jefferson who had messed up.

As for wheelbase, the X3-45 turns the best in Greyhound's fleet, even with a 334.5" wheelbase. So that could be why they're used in the East. The G's have the longest wheelbase, 336", and the 102DL3, D4500, and D4505 all have 318". The West is saturated with D4505s, some of which are turning into junk as bad as the White G.


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## mightyjoe1201

Your right, by law you must be able to keep up with traffic even if they are going over the limit. A lot of people dint know thus but you can get a ticket for impeding traffic going the speed limit when traffic is going over. I've gotten a warning about it down in Atlanta, GA when I drove for J.B. Hunt.

I get people sometimes that are on a layover between buses here that will go to our mall or Wal-Mart to waste time ask me if I go to the greyhound terminal when the want to go back. I usually tell them we don't have a greyhound terminal here. You would fall over in laughter if you saw their reaction.

It may be cheaper to do it at home base but it's not always the best idea, especially when it's safety or passenger comfort. Its better to fix it where it is then take chances down the road because who knows how long it'll take to cycle back thru. Drivers are part to blame too, especially when they know if they write it up they may be given a bus they don't like driving. So they wait to say anything till either they get stuck broke down somewhere or they get to the end of their route. Sounds like there are some maintenance workers that either are lazy or being forced to let buses slide with our repairs.

Its hard to say if they would get sued for them on charters without the WiFi etc. Last I hears they were running some 102DL3's that never got an upgrade as charters. Besides, not many places know greyhound does charters.

Sounds and looks like mci isn't like it used to be. The newer D models I've seen look like they are falling apart. I got to look at a brand new J model down in Hershey on Saturday. It looked very cheaply built compared to the Volvo that prevost had sitting there. Even the brand new vanhool that abc had looked better made.

If it wasn't that I do drive the longest bus we have I wouldn't believe that sometimes a longer wheel base could turn better. Cause its nod the case with trucks.


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## railiner

Speaking of 'G's. saw two blue and two white ones in Hoboken this morning. The white one's had 'Denver' and 'Indianapolis' on their respective destination sign's. Don't know if they were going on those runs later, or someone was just 'playing' with the signs....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've seen Greyhound using white DL3s for charters out of Las Vegas. They did refurbish some charter-only DL3s with no wheelchair lifts. Those are painted blue and should have all the new amenities.

Kit, the driver, told me that the X3-45 logbook had a driver entry from Philadelphia reporting HVAC trouble. IIRC, that was the Philly-NYC driver. Then the bus got dispatched to Denver, and then to Reno, without repairs to the HVAC. Must be that someone at GLI ignored the driver reports or didn't think the HVAC mattered.

MCI is owned by investment banking now. The 102DL3 was the last new design released under GLC ownership. Then GLC sold MCI to Dina, who went bankrupt and sold MCI to some company called KPS. The new MCIs are all glued and clipped together. That being said, the X3-45 is also glued together, which may explain the roof leak that happened.

Van Hools seem to be great when they're new but terrible when they age. They age even faster than the new MCIs. Prevost H3-45s are probably the most physically durable because they have special embedded bolts. They also have the longest production run, 1994-present; 21 years and still going strong.

The X3-45 turns well due to IFS. Costs a bit more to maintain but rides better and turns better.


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## railiner

I would clarify your statement...GLC is the common abbreviation for Greyhound Lines of Canada, aka Greyhound Canada Transportation Corporation

It was a subsidiary of the former Greyhound Corporation, as was Greyhound Lines, Inc. (GLI). And so was MCI, Armour-Dial, and several other subsidiaries including TMC or Transportation Manufacturing Corporation--an MCI spin-off. The Greyhound Corporation sold off GLI in 1986. To avoid confusion, the Corporation changed its name to the Dial Corporation. Later on, Dial sold GLC to Laidlaw (who later acquired GLI, reuniting the two Greyhound properties to common ownership. Later, First Group acquired Laidlaw. And Dial sold off MCI, as you stated.

IMHO, MCI began its decline from its premier position at the time it was no longer under the influence of the GLI engineering staff in 1986. When that happened, instead of building the coach for maximum durability, it was built to shave costs and increase profitability....


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## mightyjoe1201

That's sad that mci went down hill like that because they were always the most reliable coach from what I've heard a lot of ppl in the industry talk.

Isn't first group primarily school buses tho? If I'm right about that, maybe that's why the quality of the coaches suck anymore.

I guess every big name had its heyday. GM started going downhill before they stoped making coaches and look how long they were the predominant bus maker


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## railiner

In its heyday, General Motor's dominated the North American coach business and built the world's finest coaches. Nobody else even came close. Little by little, rival coach builder's 'threw in the towel' until there was just a few left, with a miniscule market share. At that time, the US government stepped in with antitrust actions, and forced GM to allow rival manufacturer's to purchase certain GM patented component's to install in their coaches. They also intervened in the "sweetheart deal" GM and Greyhound formed, and forced Greyhound to purchase from other manufacturer's, and also, no longer have priority on new GM models. That was why and how MCI, at the time, a very small manufacturer owned by GLC suddenly was awarded the contract eventually replace entirely Greyhound's fleet.

"What's good enough for Greyhound, is good enough for us", seemed to be the attitude of GL affiliates, and other independent bus companies, that jumped on the MCI bandwagon, and abandoned GM. GM was fully capable of fighting back for that business, but they chose not to, account of the government action against them, and did not really care that they were getting out of that business....


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow I didn't know that about GM and greyhound. I never really got to ride to many of GM 's buses because by the time I was old enough to know anything, most co were phasing out their gm fleets. Maybe some day mci will regain its former glory but I doubt it.


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## mightyjoe1201

Im planning a trip hopefully end of August. Unfortunately I can't take greyhound unless they can make the schedules faster. I'm going down to Oklahoma for a week but with buses or trains I would only get one day there


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## Swadian Hardcore

I do believe GLC continued to have input into MCI's designs after GLI had been sold off. GLC does demand a lot out of its coaches and the 102C3s lasted a long time. Undoubtedly, MCI was beginning to slide after GLI was sold off, but the big dives came after the sale to Dina and then again after the financial problems in 2005.

2005 was the year when the D4500 lost its rivets, which were replaced with glue in the then-new D4500CL, D4500CT, and D4505.

I guess it'd be something like this:

1987 - MCI starts to slide.

1995 - MCI stops designing durable buses.

2005 - MCI stops making durable buses.

2012 - MCI is surpassed by Prevost in the private sector.


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## railiner

Greyhound did have influence when it was still purchasing large-scale. And MCI did build the MC-12 mainly at Greyhounds request.... later on, Greyhound represented a smaller and smaller total portion of MCI's business,....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps a portion of MCI's problems were caused by Greyhound's ineptitude. Their bankruptcy and strikes resulted in less and less coaches being ordered. MCI turned to NJT as the big new customer, but NJT doesn't care about running 3 million miles per coach, nor do they want true intercity motorcoaches.


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## mightyjoe1201

If an agency Luke njt were to run 3 million miles I'd b shocked. There probably more interested in the coach lasting a set number of years without serious problems. Tho I'd expect them to want durable coaches given that they run nj and NYC all day long.


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## mightyjoe1201

Is there an actually difference in the coaches that greyhound would order versus a charter and tour company outside of the required chair life for greyhound?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound runs on the highway around the clock, so they will generally want more speed in addition to the extra durability for running 3 million miles. Charter operators run different routes and require more flexibility, so more maneuverability and more amenity options are the norm. Tour operators generally want a slow, high-deck bus with big windows.

The 102DL3 is a good example of a Greyhound. It's the most durable and still decently fast with a big air intake. Ride quality is good, too.

The J4500 is a good example of a charter bus. It's the flexible jack-of-all-trades. AFAIK, it's average at everything, so it can flex.

The H3-45 is certainly the most popular tour bus. It's got the highest deck and the largest size, but also slow and, depending on the engine, sometimes underpowered.

NJT wants durability by transit standards, so they keep ordering new D's, which are more durable than transits, but very inconsistent once they get high on miles.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Is there an actually difference in the coaches that greyhound would order versus a charter and tour company outside of the required chair life for greyhound?


Basically, Greyhound wants durability, and low operating cost. Charter and tour companies are looking for "frills" that will set themselves apart from competition, and attract customer's. One visible difference is things like Greyhound not ordering enclosure's for the parcel racks...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Using Greyhound's new Bus Tracker, I observed something weird. The Reno-Denver is currently being run as two separate segments, splitting at Salt Lake City. Yesterday, a D4505 ran Denver-Salt Lake City, then Blue G #7273 ran to Reno.

Same thing happened the other way around. D4505 #86397 ran Reno-Salt Lake City, then turned back to Reno while another bus that hasn't been reported yet is currently running to Denver.

Reno-Denver was a through run last year.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's strange. If I remember my truck driving days right, it's less then 10 hours between the two cities, isn't it?


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## mightyjoe1201

Anyone know how to tell what kind of bus is on any given schedule based on the number? I can't find anything that gives me the numbering system. Thanks


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## mightyjoe1201

I asked cause a friend just txt me he's on bus #6403 headed into new York city. They near king of Prussia right now


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## railiner

6403 is a DL3, I believe...

You can scroll thru this listing also.... https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/MCCS_Frame_Insurance.asp

click on 'vehicles'.....


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## mightyjoe1201

Cool. Thanks. I asked him what kind of bus he was on and he just kept telling me greyhound and the bud number. And this coming from a guy who's been driving buses for over 30 years. Lol.


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## Swadian Hardcore

#6000-6619 and #6900-6964 are the DL3s that were ordered by GLI. They got some more second-hand. But what's really confusing are the second-hand H3-45s and J4500s. Those are numbered in the 6600s and 6900s, respectively, and just have higher numbers than the DL3s.

Once you get the bus number, you can find it under Greyhound on Texas DMV and that gives you the VIN. Any VIN starting with "1M8P" is a DL3. Looks like #6403 is 1M8PDMRA3YP052779.

I caught a glimpse of good old #52672 yesterday on the Tracker. It was running Tallahassee-Cleveland.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh-oh. Looks like D4505 #86558 is in distress. The motorcoach is reportedly "running out of fluid". It is currently running Sked 1300 Portland-Denver and is entering Utah from Idaho.

Reportedly, the Portland-Boise driver told the next driver he was close to running out of DEF fluid. But Boise didn't have fluid so Greyhound ordered the bus to proceed to Salt Lake City and stop off at a store along the way to get fluid. That store was closed so the driver went to another store (also closed) and then to a Pilot Truck Stop that had no DEF fluid left. The bus doesn't have enough DEF fluid to make it to SLC and it's too late to turn back to Boise. So the driver is frantically driving around looking for DEF fluid before the bus dies.


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## mightyjoe1201

That's surprising that pilot didn't have any def fluid. A lot if the truck stops/travel centers have bulk tanks if it that you can purchase it at the fuel pumps. Hope he gets some before running out. Because if what I read about that system it'll shut the bus down pretty quick when it runs out


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## mightyjoe1201

52672 really gets around.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, I just heard he got some before running out. I think this is basically the kind of "deferred maintenance" that people talk about with Greyhound. #86558 needs DEF fluid to run, but it hadn't been filled in Portland before departure. If it had been, then this wouldn't have happened. At least in this case, the driver was able to buy some DEF fluid and make it to Salt Lake City. #86558 has now departed SLC on time and is heading to Denver.

But then, another disaster in Portland: Greyhound ran out of buses today. I can't believe it happened. 1318 Portland-Denver was supposed to depart at 12:10 PM. But it didn't depart until 5:23 PM. Currently, it's being run by blue G4500 #7125.

How do I know they ran out of buses? 'Cause last night, D4505 #86351 broke down in Redding while running northbound to Vancouver on Schedule 1440. And #7125 was the replacement. So #7125 hightailed it to Portland with a 6-hour delay and then immediately jumped onto the 1318 departure to Denver, with a 5-hour delay. It's obvious that Portland ran out of buses. This is how one breakdown in Redding affected the entire Western network. Now everybody on 1318 will miss their connections.


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## mightyjoe1201

If any of you get talking to mechanics can you ask if they've been having problems with the def system not wanting to go into regeneration? We have a bus that keeps doing it and it's driving my boss nuts because he has to hook a computer up to it and force it into regeneration. I'd appreciate it.


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## railiner

We occasionally have Regen problems....they are supposed to regen while running, but some times they don't, and we have to perform a forced regen while parked. It usually takes about a half hour or so, and you have to be careful where you do it account the intense heat blasting out of the exhaust pipe.

As for DEF...whenever we fuel our buses, we always top off the DEF tank as well, at our regular servicing points....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has reported major regen problems with their 86300-series D4505s. These buses will have a "regen failure" while cruising down the highway and spew black smoke out the back until the bus grinds to a halt. I assume this is what happened to #86351. The 86300s are powered by Detroit Diesel Series 60 14L 425hp EGR engines.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm glad others are having trouble. Tho I know there is a difference between line haul coaches and transit buses. The ISL Cummins in our 2012 Gillig is really causing grief. My boss has had to send it out to get the system worked on s des Times but it'll only run a fee dats before it refuses to regenerate


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## Chaz

Swadian...Like many on this forum you tend to write normally then suddenly lapse into an abbreviated phrase. In this thread you've done it again with 'def fluid'. By internal reference you could mean 'deferred' fluid . [smiley won't insert??]

Since this is repeated again and again I miss out on the gist lof the conversation--although picturing a driver going store to store asking for def fluid was fun! '

'Regen' is another such abbreviation.

Can you and other bus posters check your posts for comprehension stumbling blocks?

Chaz in Fl.


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## mightyjoe1201

I can help clarify some of that for you Chaz. Def fluid stand for diesel exhaust fluid. Def is the industry abbreviation for it.

Regen stands for regeneration. Its part of the exhaust system on newer diesel engines. Its where the exhaust is burned at a high temperature to burn off stuff that the environmental protection agency says gets put in the air. It does this by a process called regeneration. We call it regen for short. Hope that helps.


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## railiner

Chaz said:


> Swadian...Like many on this forum you tend to write normally then suddenly lapse into an abbreviated phrase. In this thread you've done it again with 'def fluid'. By internal reference you could mean 'deferred' fluid . [smiley won't insert??]
> 
> Since this is repeated again and again I miss out on the gist lof the conversation--although picturing a driver going store to store asking for def fluid was fun! '
> 
> 'Regen' is another such abbreviation.
> 
> Can you and other bus posters check your posts for comprehension stumbling blocks?
> 
> Chaz in Fl.


DEF...... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

DPF....(scroll down to the explanation of REGENeration)....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter

Swadian (and myself) probably assume most on the AU forum aren't really interested in the technical details we sometimes abbreviate, so please forgive us for that....

Always happy to see new poster's on these 'bus' threads!


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## Swadian Hardcore

As others have explained, DEF is the official term used in the industry and by the EPA, DOT, etc. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DEF+fluid). Same with DPF.

Regen is just regeneration, burning off particulates in the DPF.

From BusTracker, all Greyhound schedules through Salt Lake City currently get a bus change.


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## rickycourtney

So watching the BusTracker and hearing about oiky's problems I've realized something... through-routing buses (like Vancouver to LA) seems to be a double-edged sword.

It cause issues where one small delay causes problems that cascade for days. Unlike Amtrak's generous schedule padding, once Greyhound buses are late, they seem to stay late. That hurts passengers who are catching the bus further down the line. In oiky's case I applaud Greyhound starting a second schedule to sweep up passengers, but doing that too frequently can use up buses.

That being said it through-routing buses does really benefit the drivers on-board and the drivers. No longer does a passenger on a delayed bus from say Sacramento to Portland need to worry about making a connection to the bus from Portland to Seattle and drivers feel less pressure to speed to help passengers make their connection.

Also Swad you bring up something that I always assumed happened... just because a schedule travels between two cities... that doesn't mean one coach makes that entire trip. In fact since passengers are required to deboard at major stations for refueling, cleaning and servicing... it may actually make since to just transfer passengers to another coach at that time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's exactly how Portland ran out of buses. Greyhound ran extra buses to sweep up passengers from a delayed through run. But then they ended up running out of buses for the regular schedules. I'm sure Greyhound actually had a bus planned for 1318 yesterday, but it must have gone Out-of-Service at the last minute due to mechanical trouble. That seems to be happened a lot with the D4505s. Yesterday, a Chicago-Minneapolis D4505 broke down, causing passengers to miss connections.

Greyhound is so short on buses that they are turn-and-burning long-distance schedules. Both Americanos G4500 #60682 and second-hand J4500 #6994 had barely any layover time in Portland before turning back to Denver. Portland seems to heavily short of buses. Americanos never ran to Portland and the J4500s aren't supposed to go there.

Indeed, the Reno-Denver is currently regularly split in Salt Lake City. But something weird happened today. The San Francisco-Reno bus is continuing to Denver with a quick refueling stop in Reno. It's D4505 #86323. Sometimes Greyhound splits schedules, other times they merge.

Also, 1343 Denver-Portland is running with an extra bus. D4500 #6612 is being followed by X3-45 #86070. Fleet shortage evident in Denver and Portland.


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## rickycourtney

I'm not sure how Portland works. Every time I've been there they seem to have a TON of buses parked out in the bus bays (including Bolt's buses), but I don't think Greyhound has any sort of base in Portland where buses can be repaired/dispatched.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That may be the problem. Greyhound must have tons of buses in Portland, but a lot of them are probably Out-of-Service due to lack of a Maintenance Center.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> I'm not sure how Portland works. Every time I've been there they seem to have a TON of buses parked out in the bus bays (including Bolt's buses), but I don't think Greyhound has any sort of base in Portland where buses can be repaired/dispatched.


Portland doesn't have a maintenance base, just a service lane with mechanics that's split in the first few gates closest to dispatch. The buses that are laid up at the gates are the Portland-based schedules. That said, Portland has a sizeable driver base.

When Portland needs buses, they call the primary base which is Seattle. From there, it's Vancouver if they have a Seattle/LA bus available. When needed for fleet alignment, they will position buses in and out across the country throughout the week to get ready for the weekend.

This happens every week btw - it's called Fleet Planning.


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## railiner

Some times it's faster to change a bus on a 'thru' schedule than to take one to a garage, fully service it, and return to a terminal


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound expanded their ad campaign to announce "GUARENTEED SEATING ON EVERY BUS". So they basically just said that they "eradicated" overbooking. Also, Greyhound's booking fees are now on a per-person, per-segment basis, rather than a per-transaction basis.

Also, 6362 (15) broke down three times involving two buses on the Phoenix-Las Vegas route.

Now I can see lots of people going mad when they book a non-Greyhound bus through Greyhound's website and get overbooked or the bus doesn't have Wi-Fi, power outlets, and leather seats. Perhaps Greyhound should emulate AA and add a search option where the passengers choose the carriers displayed. There could be "Greyhound Only" and "All Carriers". Also, non-Greyhound buses should be clearly marked, when booking, that it is not a Greyhound bus.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, when booking thru greyhound, if you look, it tells you when you check what segments of your trip are on greyhound and what is on another carrier. As an example, when I took my trip to Pittsburgh last year, I first looked to go from home and it showed Fullington trailways for the first segment and GLI for the other. And that was before I confirmed my purchase


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but a lot of people are too stupid to read what company they are riding with. That's why some people think every scheduled motorcoach is a Greyhound. People think you can ride Greyhound to Omaha, Fargo, Rapid City, Billings, etc., when Greyhound doesn't go there.

Also, all Greyhound shows before completing the purchase is the Carrier Code, such as GLI, GLC, etc. Most people don't know what that means. Greyhound should explain at the bottom of the choices.


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## mightyjoe1201

You got a good point there. Greyhound could spell out each carrier in bold print and people still wouldn't know it's not going to b greyhound.

Considering I've actually had people ask me how I know the buses that cone into our station are trailways not greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If someone asked me that, I'd tell them they say "Trailways" on the side, rather than "Greyhound". To make things more difficult, some people think Trailways is owned by Greyhound.

Does anyone know why a Denver-Reno was cancelled between Salt Lake City and Reno? It's really weird, what's going on here in the West.


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## rickycourtney

First off, Greyhound has spent a lot of money to get to this place where they can advertise guaranteed seating on every bus and tout amenities like WiFi, power outlets and leather seats on every bus. All those things are huge wins for customers.

But, it does need to come with a bit of disclosure when you're booking a trip that could include non-Greyhound carriers and I agree putting a cryptic three letter code doesn't cut it.

I've always thought Alaska does a good job of this...




They clearly mark which airline operates which leg of the flight using logos and they also put a number ("1" in this case) for flights that are operated by a contractor (in this case it's Alaska's wholly owned subsidiary, Horizon).

They also put icons for what amenities you can expect on each leg of the trip (WiFi, 110V Power, USB Power). It would be nice for Greyhound to integrate those icons along with icons for restrooms (since Greyhound Connect coaches aren't equipped) and for buses that make en route meal stops.


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## Swadian Hardcore

British Airways does the same thing with putting logo on codeshare flights. I think it would work really well. Greyhound uses the rest stop logo "R" in their BusTracker maps. The thing is, some of the rest stops are inaccurate. For example, on 1308 Reno-Salt Lake City, Winnemucca isn't a rest stop while Lovelock is.

The new Chicago-Davenport is going to be operated by Greyhound Connect cutaways. Those won't have restrooms. I guess they're not really "coaches", since they are basically really big shuttle vans. Also, Greyhound is starting QuickLink Commuter Service on the New Orleans-Baton Rouge route. Don't understand maintenance for that one since Greyhound has no Maintenance Center in New Orleans.

Lastly, I found out that, back in 2013, one of Jefferson's 2005 J4500s was completely destroyed by fire near Williston on the Minneapolis-Missoula. Seems like Jefferson is disregarding that route with a 12:30 AM arrival into Billings (from Minneapolis).


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## Caesar La Rock

I'm curious, how many J4500s does Greyhound own? What are their numbers and who originally owned them? One of them apparently was reported to have made it down to Miami, FL. I don't know when, but I can tell you it was 6994. What about the Prevost H3-45s and Van Hool C2045s?


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## Swadian Hardcore

2003 MCI J4500 Pembina: #6987-6989

2003 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6990-6991

2005 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6992-6994

All are powered with Detroit Diesel Series 60 12.7L, with the exception of #6994, which is powered with a CAT C13 ACERT.

Edit:

2000 Prevost H3-45: #6666-6669

2005 Prevost H3-45: #6670


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 2003 MCI J4500 Pembina: #6987-6989
> 
> 2003 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6990-6991
> 
> 2005 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6992-6994
> 
> All are powered with Detroit Diesel Series 60 12.7L, with the exception of #6994, which is powered with a CAT C13 ACERT.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 2000 Prevost H3-45: #6666-6669
> 
> 2005 Prevost H3-45: #6670


Thank you.


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## railiner

GLC also had a handful of 'J's and H's....we would occasionally see them on Toronto-Buffalo-NYC pool runs. Of those 'rare bird's', IIRC, only a few of the H's were purchased new by GLC. The other's were acquired from other carrier's.....

Thinking back, (it's been several years), the 'J's may have been EL-3's, or a mixture of both types....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think GLC only had 102EL3s. I don't think a J4500 has ever been spotted in GLC service. Some or all of the EL3s were sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours and Gray Line West, IIRC. Gray Line West subsequently went bankrupt. Here's a pic: http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/bc_trucks/2006/jun29/bus/dsc_7504.jpg.

I'm wondering how Bustang's new D4500CLs and NJT's new D4500CTHs are coming with seats that do not appear to meet the newest containment standards. Bustang is using the Amaya Torino Standard with 3-point seat belts and NJT is still using American Seating 2095 that don't even have seatbelts.

Also, why is BusTracker not working for runs like the 1314 and 1318?


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## railiner

On holiday's we got a weird assortment of ChaCo Trails and Pentag-Midland buses that GLC acquired, as well as the XL-II's they got from Orleans....

And I believe also, Hotard....maybe other's.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Is anyone else having problems with Greyhound BusTracker? The buses aren't showing up the maps.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm wondering how Bustang's new D4500CLs and NJT's new D4500CTHs are coming with seats that do not appear to meet the newest containment standards. Bustang is using the Amaya Torino Standard with 3-point seat belts and NJT is still using American Seating 2095 that don't even have seatbelts.


That's because the NHTSA rule still hasn't gone into effect. 
All newly manufactured buses will be required to be equipped with lap and shoulder belts beginning in November 2016. I'm not sure if that rule also includes the new containment requirements, so that could go into effect earlier or later.


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## railiner

I tried looking to see which of our buses came in on our GLI pool run...285...and there was an 'apology' message saying that that trip's info was unavailable....


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## Swadian Hardcore

As I see it, there's two rules here: one about containment, and the other about seat belts. AFAIK, all motorcoach seating in production must have "containment". Then, effective November 2016, all motorcoach seating in production would require 3-point seat belts.

That being said, I failed to find the laws regarding "containment" on motorcoaches, only the laws for school buses.

Still, I personally thought NJT would be proactive and order 3-point seat belts in their newest coaches. But American 2095s can't be equipped with 3-point seat belts, so NJT's new units this year probably won't ever have them, since NJT rarely replaces seating or refurbishes old coaches.


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## rickycourtney

It actually doesn't surprise me that NJT didn't proactively buy coaches with 3-point seat belts. Many transit agencies argued that they should get an exemption to this seat belt rule and when it was clear they wouldn't, they fought against the rule.

Frankly I can see it from both sides. On one hand its better to make sure that no matter who operates the coach, you always have a seat belt available. That being said transit agencies do tend to operate their coaches differently than a company like Greyhound. You typically have a shorter spacing between stops (so nobody bothers to buckle up), some agencies allow standees and usually transit bus drivers are taught to drive differently, since they spend so much time in urban environments with no passengers buckled up.

Interestingly the rule won't apply to the transit style intercity buses Sound Transit buys, even though they're equipped with coach style seats (the Amaya Patriot) and operate over the same highways.

Speaking of which... here's a shot of a New Flyer DE60LFR with Amaya Patriot seats owned by Sound Transit. It was operating in the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel when I took this picture... it's a sweet ride compared to everything else in the tunnel.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So you mean transit agencies who operate motorcoaches will need 3-point seat belts, while transit agencies who operate suburban buses (like that DE60LFR) don't need it?

I think part of the difference is that suburbans drive a low slower than motorcoaches. Transit drivers do seem to drive differently. They do not actively pass slow vehicles and do not accelerate/decelerate as much. I think transit drivers are closer to charter and tour drivers than Greyhound drivers.

The confusing part is about containment. Neither 2095 nor Torino Standard offer containment, so why don't private sector operators order those seats again?

Anyway, seems like BusTracker is working again. DL3s are now invading Denver.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Anyone knows the story on these Van Hools from Greyhound.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12281000915/

MI-0075, I presume owned by Michigan, but operated by Greyhound? I'm also adding Van Hools, H3-45s, and J4500s to the roster over here.

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Greyhound_USA#Active


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So you mean transit agencies who operate motorcoaches will need 3-point seat belts, while transit agencies who operate suburban buses (like that DE60LFR) don't need it?


Correct. Transit buses are exempt from the law, even if they have a suburban configuration. But motorcoaches operated by the same agency will need to comply. 


Swadian Hardcore said:


> I think part of the difference is that suburbans drive a low slower than motorcoaches.


That's not true on the freeway. Sound Transit's DE60LFR coaches & D4500CL coaches both normally travel in the HOV lane and go the posted speed limit.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Transit drivers do seem to drive differently. They do not actively pass slow vehicles and do not accelerate/decelerate as much. I think transit drivers are closer to charter and tour drivers than Greyhound drivers.


That might be your experience, but it's certainly hasn't been mine. Both line haul (including Greyhound) AND charter drivers seem to drive like truckers, they go as fast as they can get away with and buses can go faster than trucks. 
Transit drivers on the other hand drive for safety. Since passengers aren't belted in and many aren't contained (standing or sitting facing the center) they need to be able to stop without slamming on the brakes.

Tour drivers just drive slow because people want to look out the windows.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I guess each driver is different. Greyhound drivers do drive aggressively for the most part, though I've seen exceptions. Reno-, Salt Lake City-, and Denver-based drivers seem the best, while California drivers seem a lot less consistent.

The transit drivers that go on the freeway seem to cruise under the speed limit and get passed by everybody. At least that's what I saw with Santa Clarita Transit, UTA, and Denver RTD.

On GTE, I heard that NJT got an exemption to the seat belt rules and will continue to operate without belts on their motorcoaches. They are presumably also exempt from containment.

Also received photo confirmation that some of the White G's got lightly refurbished with new seat covers, but no Wi-Fi or outlets. One example is #7213. #60682 (now a Blue G) was actually completely rebuilt, even though it's an ex-Americanos unit. Looks like the G4500s are all here to stay for the time being. Greyhound is suffering a fleet shortage.


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## rickycourtney

Whoever told you that on GTE is mistaken. Since the rule hasn't gone into effect, there would be no need to get an exemption to buy motorcoaches without seatbelts. Furthermore, since the rules only apply to newly built motorcoaches, no exemption would be needed to continue to operate existing units after the rule goes into effect.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No, this is what he said:
"NJT not using seat belts is a loophole... while the belts are required of over-the-road coaches in line haul, charter, and tour service, transit buses are exempt and NJT can identify all their buses as being in "transit service", even though they have lav-equipped units that are competing with Greyhound on NY-AC. It's almost payback to the Feds on NJT's part for changing the transit charter rules in 1987, since NJT had maintained the charter and tour department of its private predecessor TNJ (formerly Public Service) to that point."

Since he posted it on GTE, a public group, and was not sent via private e-mail, I have no restrictions on quoting him.

Basically, he's (somewhat arrogantly) saying that NJT ain't gonna use seat belts or containment, not now, not ever. And yes, he claims to work for NJT and has insider info. He is still wrong with his first sentence because belts aren't required in the private sector until November 2016. If you ask me, I'm a bit angry at NJT and their tactics.


----------



## rickycourtney

He's also dead wrong about the part where he says...



> while the belts are required of over-the-road coaches in line haul, charter, and tour service, transit buses are exempt and NJT can identify all their buses as being in "transit service", even though they have lav-equipped units that are competing with Greyhound on NY-AC.


Quoting now from the NHTSA rule...



> “Transit bus” means a bus sold for public transportation provided by, or on behalf of a State or local government, that is equipped with a stop-request system and that is not an over-the-road bus. “Stop-request system” means a vehicle-integrated system for passenger use to signal to a vehicle operator that they are requesting a stop. “Over-the-road bus” means a bus characterized by an elevated passenger deck located over a baggage compartment.


Therefore a D4500CT owned by NJT is not exempt from the rule because while it may be used for public transportation provided by a State government and is equipped with a stop-request system... it still qualifies as an over-the-road bus.

So yes, any over-the-road bus, built after November 2016, even if it's to be used for public transportation, has to be seatbelt equipped.

And just for fun... here's some more text from the NHTSA rule to really twist a knife in that GTE commenters statement...



> It was NHTSA’s intent in the NPRM to require lap/shoulder seat belts on “over-the-road” buses operated by transit agencies. Over-the-road buses used by transit agencies and over-the-road buses used by private companies for intercity transport both carry large numbers of passengers over long distances, and at highway speeds. Given the occurrence of a crash, the risk of fatality is the same for both groups of buses. It is not uncommon to see commuter express buses traveling on the highway alongside privately-operated tour and charter buses of nearly identical construction. We acknowledge that the public transit agencies’ safety record for operating commuter express service is better than the safety record shown by some private sector operators. However, given the overall similarity of the buses in construction and use, we cannot distinguish, from a public safety standpoint, good reasons for requiring passenger lap/shoulder seat belts in only privately-operated versions of the commuter express buses when the risk of rollover in a crash, risk of fatal or serious injury in a rollover, and risk of fatal or serious injury in all crashes are the same for both groups of buses.


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## Caesar La Rock

Around Orlando, transit drivers go as fast as the bus can go. I've been on BRTs, Phantoms, D60s, NABIs, and Nova artics that have topped 70mph. The company once had a 1997 35ft. Phantom who's top speed was 86mph, powered with a Cummins M11.

As for motorcoaches, I rode on a Van Hool C2045 from Mears (last year and numbered 4209) that was going at a pretty good speed. The driver took that bus up to over 70+, but it was a smooth ride. No sudden stops or anything like that, smooth sailing as they say. That's my personal experience with speed and 4209 did not have seatbelts.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh great. I knew something was fishy and I can't even challenge him (the GTE poster) because one of the co-admins supports him and has already deleted one of my posts voicing anti-NJT opinions. Ugh, NJT and some (not all) of their supporters are just pissing me off. This is basically why MCI got away with their D4505s.

Sorry CJ, I just saw your question on the Van Hools. Those MI- units are Michigan-owned. That CPTDB roster is very inaccurate. I hope you can use Texas DMV to revise it: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/.

Be aware that the years shown on Texas DMV are model years, not build years. For example, #6520-6559 are 1999 102DL3s with a 2000 model year. #6560-6599 are 2000s with a 2001 model year. By that time, the 102DL3 had already been renamed D4500, but Greyhound had ordered them as 102DL3s, so they are 102DL3s.


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## rickycourtney

I couldn't resist... I had to reply to that thread on GTE.

Anyways to answer your question as to why NJT orders the American Seating 2095... it's either one of two things, NJT wants fleet commonality or they're just buying whatever's cheapest.


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## rickycourtney

I thought this was a neat photo, so I had to share...



3 agencies and Greyhound enter Everett Station by SounderBruce, on Flickr

From front to back, that's a Community Transit New Flyer D40i, a Skagit Transit Gillig Low Floor, a Everett Transit Gillig BRT Hybrid and a Greyhound G4500 all pulling into Everett Station at the same time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks, Ricky. You did a good job. I'm still baffled about containment; I thought containment was required on all motorcoach seats now.

Your link led me to this picture of GLI #7221: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/18778293900/in/photostream/. I noticed how the lower window on the entrance door has a ring of bolts around it. Looks like Greyhound heavily bolted on that window just to prevent it from falling off. At least a lot better than duct tape. J4500s reportedly suffer the same problem.

BTW, I was browsing around Prevost's Pre-Owned Coaches, and found a surprising number of 2014 H3-45s and 9700s for sale: https://www.prevostcar.com/content/pre-owned-seated-coach.

I'm not sure what operator would be selling those 1-year-old buses.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks, Ricky. You did a good job. I'm still baffled about containment; I thought containment was required on all motorcoach seats now.
> 
> Your link led me to this picture of GLI #7221: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/18778293900/in/photostream/. I noticed how the lower window on the entrance door has a ring of bolts around it. Looks like Greyhound heavily bolted on that window just to prevent it from falling off. At least a lot better than duct tape. J4500s reportedly suffer the same problem.
> 
> BTW, I was browsing around Prevost's Pre-Owned Coaches, and found a surprising number of 2014 H3-45s and 9700s for sale: https://www.prevostcar.com/content/pre-owned-seated-coach.
> 
> I'm not sure what operator would be selling those 1-year-old buses.


Maybe the operator went belly up and is selling off their fleet.


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## rickycourtney

To my knowledge, there are no new rules governing containment of passengers in over-the-road buses here in the US. NHTSA is currently finishing a study on compartmentalization (the new term for containment here in the states) and could soon issue a rule that could go into effect in 2 years.

That being said... Europe does have rules regarding containment, so therefore a lot of seats sold here in the US that comply with the new seatbelt standard also comply with european containment standards. It's just cheaper to make a seat that complies with both standards.

Compartmentalization was just one of the safety improvement studies required by the "Motorcoach Enhanced Safety Act of 2012". NHTSA is also looking into electronic stability control systems, roof strength standards (for rollover crashes), glass glazing standards for windows and doors (to prevent ejections), tire pressure monitoring systems, tire performance standards, fire prevention & mitigation, interior impact protection and crash avoidance systems (crash warning, crash imminent braking and lane departure warning systems).

Note that manufacturers have already included some of those technologies on some new over-the-road buses... but NHTSA may decide to require it on all new over-the-road buses.

Here's an interesting (but somewhat dated) presentation on the subject.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like the Premier LS was an integral part of the testing. I think American Seating will be hit hardest by new regulations. Their Premier seat was intended to meet them, but is now universally known as a piece of crap. Their bestselling 2095 for commuter use has neither seat belts, not containment, and is not very comfortable either.

Kiel Seating from Germany is breaking into the market with their slimline seats that promise to meet safety requirements while saving weight, but potentially at the expense of comfort. Amaya has introduced a new Torino G Plus 2+1. They are now selling only Torino variants and the A2-TEN. National continues to make updated versions of their traditional 4210s, now with containment and 3-point seat belts.

Rumors are that NJT will claim their motorcoaches are not "over-the-road-buses" by filling in the cargo holds with variant stuff. The CNG buses use the holds for CNG tanks. I can only hope that NJT will not order another huge batch of MCIs, for then Greyhound would likely never order MCIs again.

Interestingly, the presentation says passengers had trouble with the window escape bar. I've been permitted to try opening the windows on 102D3s and 102DL3s; the windows always opened easily with a slight pull on the escape bar, and I'm a lightweight Chinese guy.


----------



## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Looks like the Premier LS was an integral part of the testing. I think American Seating will be hit hardest by new regulations. Their Premier seat was intended to meet them, but is now universally known as a piece of crap. Their bestselling 2095 for commuter use has neither seat belts, not containment, and is not very comfortable either.


Having sat on an American Seating 2095 today... I agree, they aren't very comfortable. That being said, I'm not sure the Premier is doomed. It seems that comfort is not always the most important thing to the people who purchase seats.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Kiel Seating from Germany is breaking into the market with their slimline seats that promise to meet safety requirements while saving weight, but potentially at the expense of comfort. Amaya has introduced a new Torino G Plus 2+1. They are now selling only Torino variants and the A2-TEN. National continues to make updated versions of their traditional 4210s, now with containment and 3-point seat belts.


I wouldn't count out slimline seats simply because of the name. Alaska's new slimline seats are possibly the most comfortable coach airline seat I've sat in a few years. Slimline seats are great because you can used the weight saved to make the seat bottom ticker and you increase legroom without having to remove seats. All that being said, they have Kiel Seating on the newest Talgo trainsets up here in the PNW... and the seats aren't that comfortable.

Amaya makes a great product and it's interesting to see the evolution of their products as they contend with the new regulations. National also makes a great seat.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Rumors are that NJT will claim their motorcoaches are not "over-the-road-buses" by filling in the cargo holds with variant stuff. The CNG buses use the holds for CNG tanks.


I read that too. I don't think that will fly with safety regulators, but only time will tell.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I can only hope that NJT will not order another huge batch of MCIs, for then Greyhound would likely never order MCIs again.


Don't hold your breath. Losing the NJT order may spell the end of the D4500, but it won't be the end of MCI.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Interestingly, the presentation says passengers had trouble with the window escape bar. I've been permitted to try opening the windows on 102D3s and 102DL3s; the windows always opened easily with a slight pull on the escape bar, and I'm a lightweight Chinese guy.


It's not the action of actually operating the mechanism that's hard... it's the effort required to push open a 60+ pound window.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 2095 is pretty much doomed due to regulations. As for the Premier, I see no reason why any operator should buy it anymore. Its safety has been matched by competitors. Its comfort is terrible. It also falls apart after being broken in. Only getting a good deal upfront would make it viable, but I doubt that would even happen due to Amaya's cheap labor.

I'll take your word on the Kiel Seating. I'm guessing it's not too bad, but not great either, at least compared to Amaya and National.

As for NJT getting around regulations, I too don't believe it will happen easily, but if it does happen, then I'm guessing they'll have used connections in the government.

My logic is that if NJT orders a ton of MCIs again, MCI will continue to make disappointing products that Greyhound won't buy. So Greyhound will be forced onto Prevost, unless they want to buy Van Hools. In that case, none of the manufacturers would aggressively improve their products because every one of them would have a big stable customer and a bunch of smaller customers (Van Hool has Megabus).

Whereas if NJT orders from Prevost, MCI would lose their largest customer and would try to get both Greyhound and NJT back by improving products. It won't be the end of MCI but they would be forced to either improve the D4500 or make a line-haul J4500 variant.


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## rickycourtney

On a somewhat unrelated note, I was on a newer Sound Transit D60LFR today that was equipped with American Seating's Model 2003 seats. What a strange design. It's got a more comfortable seat cushion than the 2095 seats on the older buses, but the backs are shorter (a lot shorter than on the Patriot) and they taper at the top. It seems like a seat that would only work on a suburban bus, where you want to be able to see what's going on around you and you aren't riding for a long time.

Frankly I wish Sound Transit would have stuck with the Patriot, it's by far the most comfortable and user friendly seat.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 2003 is also used on Vancouver's suburban Orion Vs. At least one of Greyhound's second-hand J4500s has them. I found this video of a fight on a Greyhound J4500, check out the hilarious comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN81Yon2VT0.

That bus was on a LD run, must not be that great with 2003s and a drunk dude stirring up excrement.


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## Caesar La Rock

A friend of mine saw an old MC-12 being used by a Church. It was located near Universal Studios in Orlando.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Check out this all-black GLC D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/18939465949/.

That one (#1331) is an ex-Hotard unit. Frankly, I don't dig the look. It also lacks a wheelchair lift. What were they thinking ordering D4505s in 2006 without wheelchair lifts?


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## mightyjoe1201

When if at all did Canada start requiring lifts on coaches? If it wasn't required yet why spend the extra money


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, it's not required, but sooner or later, it'll be required. Besides, Hotard was based in the USA.

Hey, I found Greyhound's garage in Sacramento. It's at 1874 South River Road.


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## mightyjoe1201

From the pic, it looked like the bus was registered in Canada. It doesn't make good business sense to order something that expensive unless absolutely necessary. I don't know if you ever owned your own business but I have and you don't buy something if it's not an absolute must. Even if others think it would be beneficial.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Check out this all-black GLC D4505: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/18939465949/.
> 
> That one (#1331) is an ex-Hotard unit. Frankly, I don't dig the look. It also lacks a wheelchair lift. What were they thinking ordering D4505s in 2006 without wheelchair lifts?


I've seen Hotard's newer coaches without wheelchair lifts. Earlier this year, I saw a fairly new Van Hool and MCI J4500, both without lifts. I think the requirement is lifts don't have to be on buses that aren't doing long runs or anything like that.

That explains why I've seen 20-30+ year old coaches down here without lifts (not all the time, some do it anyway). Greyhound should avoid purchasing buses from companies that don't have accessible buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The ADA rule is that all buses in scheduled must have wheelchair lifts. But ADA doesn't apply in Canada, so Greyhound sent all their buses without lifts to Canada, except for a few charter-only buses. Buses that are not doing scheduled service don't need lifts no matter what distance they run.

Joe, I know what you mean about the cost of purchasing lifts, but this was an ex-Hotard bus, not a Greyhound original.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The ADA rule is that all buses in scheduled must have wheelchair lifts. But ADA doesn't apply in Canada, so Greyhound sent all their buses without lifts to Canada, except for a few charter-only buses. Buses that are not doing scheduled service don't need lifts no matter what distance they run.
> 
> Joe, I know what you mean about the cost of purchasing lifts, but this was an ex-Hotard bus, not a Greyhound original.


That explains everything. Greyhound should avoid purchasing second hand buses with no lifts, unless there is nothing else available.


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## rickycourtney

THE CJ said:


> That explains everything. Greyhound should avoid purchasing second hand buses with no lifts, unless there is nothing else available.


Well in the US... they have no choice. Every bus in Greyhound's fleet must be wheelchair equipped with the exception of buses used exclusively in tours & charters service. I don't honestly see Greyhound buying a new bus or even buying a used bus just to put it in tours & charters service.


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## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> That explains everything. Greyhound should avoid purchasing second hand buses with no lifts, unless there is nothing else available.
> 
> 
> 
> Well in the US... they have no choice. Every bus in Greyhound's fleet must be wheelchair equipped with the exception of buses used exclusively in tours & charters service. I don't honestly see Greyhound buying a new bus or even buying a used bus just to put it in tours & charters service.
Click to expand...

A number of Setras owned by Greyhound do tours and shuttle runs down here. I don't know their origin, but I'll ask. I think they're newer buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has 5 Setras, #86800-86804. All are 2013 model years. The VINs are WKKA40PH0D3050059-WKKA40PH6D3050063.

Their wheelbase is quite short, and they are designed for maneuverability. Thus, they are unsuited for North American intercity operations. In Germany, they are used for charters and tours.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound has 5 Setras, #86800-86804. All are 2013 model years. The VINs are WKKA40PH0D3050059-WKKA40PH6D3050063.
> 
> Their wheelbase is quite short, and they are designed for maneuverability. Thus, they are unsuited for North American intercity operations. In Germany, they are used for charters and tours.


Those could be the ones my friend has been seeing. Not sure, but I'm awaiting his word on it. Setras do okay down here for charter companies. I don't know their ride quality or how they drive. I'm also curious about Volvo 9700s.


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## CCC1007

I am considering starting a bus line here in Montana that would have one way runs of 50-350 miles. What bus and seats would you suggest for these over the road routes?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm sorry, but that seems like a serious discussion. I'll send you a PM.


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## rickycourtney

CCC1007 said:


> I am considering starting a bus line here in Montana that would have one way runs of 50-350 miles. What bus and seats would you suggest for these over the road routes?


A lot of this is highly subjective... so I would suggest riding a lot of buses to see what you like yourself. Are you trying to target everyone or a more "high end" customer?
My general suggestion would be to buy the Prevost X3-45 or H3-45 and equip it with either Amaya seats (either A-2TEN, Torino Stardard or better) and spring for the center armrests and leather seat covers since they're easier to keep clean (even if it's a faux leather like Greyhound). I would also go the same route as Greyhound and try to do 50 seats (as opposed to the normal 55) so that you give customers more legroom and you eliminate the middle seat at the back, but I understand that might not be financially viable. As far as the buses go... I would make sure you have power outlets (I argue that power is more important than WiFi) and I would spring for the enclosed parcel racks (just because it looks cleaner and less cluttered).

I'd be curious to hear more about your bus line... and what you end up going with.


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## CCC1007

Thanks, at minimum I am 2 years away from the start of service on the first route, but au is one of the first places that it will be announced on. Maybe with something special for forum members only...


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## Swadian Hardcore

What the heck is Greyhound #207? It's currently westbound on 1337 Denver-Portland. Nothing on the roster.


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## mightyjoe1201

I saw that a few days ago myself. I thought I was seeing things.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw on Facebook that Greyhound Los Angeles has 21 buses down for maintenance. That's a lot of buses out of action! They ran out of buses and deployed BoltBus units on short runs, while severely delaying other runs by up to 6 hours. It appears that the D4505 has been a major maintenance debacle, since Los Angeles Div depends on that model.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I saw on Facebook that Greyhound Los Angeles has 21 buses down for maintenance. That's a lot of buses out of action! They ran out of buses and deployed BoltBus units on short runs, while severely delaying other runs by up to 6 hours. It appears that the D4505 has been a major maintenance debacle, since Los Angeles Div depends on that model.


If they don't work out those issues with the D4505s, they might want to invest in another bus that's reliable.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sounds like it's time for greyhound to look into other manufacturers and retire their fleet of D4505. I'm not a fan of prevost but that May be the way to go for them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like the D4505 has replaced the G4500 as Greyhound's lemon. The D4505s that were running Reno-Salt Lake City have been replaced by 102DL3s, and X3-45 #86251 ended up on yesterday's 1314 to Denver. Meanwhile, Blue G's and DL3s have taken over Denver-Portland.

Seems like Greyhound is restricting their D4505s to Los Angeles in an attempt to ease maintenance with the exception of state-owned D4505s. The Utah-owned ones are still running Reno-Denver.

I don't think Greyhound will retire their D4505s anytime soon because they are new and Greyhound's out of cash to buy replacements. But the rapid deterioration of these at-most-5-year-old buses is obvious to me and many others. Not only that, but they are also the least fuel-efficient Greyhounds and have terribly painful seats despite ample legroom on some rows.

Today's 1308 to Salt Lake City is #6339. I'm not sure if that was the bus that came from SLC yesterday. Wonder what today's 1314 will be.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Second-hand DL3 #6653 caught on fire today in Virginia while running a Richmond-New York City schedule. Looks like the fire started out in the rear wheel wells: http://www.nbc12.com/story/29416003/greyhound-bus-fire-closes-all-lanes-on-i-95n-in-caroline-county.

Also, Greyhound just took delivery of some more 2015 D4505s. They are #86578-86586. The serial numbers are all messed up. They are powered with Cummins ISX12s.


----------



## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering starting a bus line here in Montana that would have one way runs of 50-350 miles. What bus and seats would you suggest for these over the road routes?
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of this is highly subjective... so I would suggest riding a lot of buses to see what you like yourself. Are you trying to target everyone or a more "high end" customer?
> My general suggestion would be to buy the Prevost X3-45 or H3-45 and equip it with either Amaya seats (either A-2TEN, Torino Stardard or better) and spring for the center armrests and leather seat covers since they're easier to keep clean (even if it's a faux leather like Greyhound). I would also go the same route as Greyhound and try to do 50 seats (as opposed to the normal 55) so that you give customers more legroom and you eliminate the middle seat at the back, but I understand that might not be financially viable. As far as the buses go... I would make sure you have power outlets (I argue that power is more important than WiFi) and I would spring for the enclosed parcel racks (just because it looks cleaner and less cluttered).
> 
> I'd be curious to hear more about your bus line... and what you end up going with.
Click to expand...

Yes...I would be curious, as well....

Perhaps AU should have a new category for "I want to start a bus line".....


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What the heck is Greyhound #207? It's currently westbound on 1337 Denver-Portland. Nothing on the roster.


Could it be a data entry error? Perhaps 86207, or some other number entered in error? I don't know if the system would automatically reject a wrong number, or not....


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## Swadian Hardcore

If #207 is an error, I'm guessing it's #7207, which would be a G4500. I guess it could also be #6207. I don't think it would be #86207, because I doubt Greyhound would miss two digits.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A man jumped out of a Greyhound bus window and died: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/sfl-jumps-from-greyhound-bus-20150701-story.html. 

It appears that he may have opened the window escape bar while the bus was traveling at highway speed.


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## mightyjoe1201

He either had mental problems or was a total idiot.


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## Caesar La Rock

Every bus company has it's nutty passengers. I saw a picture of a Van Hool C2045 (numbered 3260) painted in Greyhound's blue paint scheme. Did Greyhound refurbished those Ex-Valley Transit buses? If so, was a significant overhaul or was it a minor overhaul?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I think he was intentionally committing suicide. I wonder how many passengers have pulled a prank and opened the window while the bus was running down the highway.

I don't know about those Van Hools except that they're based out of Valley Transit's garage at Harlingen and run South Texas routes. They have FAINSA (or Amaya) seats. Maybe ABC Companies decides to rebuild them for Greyhound at a reduced price since Greyhound ran out of cash while rebuilding the 102DL3s and G4500s. One time I saw a video on Facebook taken inside a Blue C2045; the passengers were complaining about the cockroaches crawling all over the seats and floor.

Greyhound is currently using white ex-Americanos C2045s on the Memphis-Oklahoma City and ex-Americanos 102D3s on the Miami-Key West. Would love to ride a 102D3, those things were cool. The new D4505s have been running long-distance I-95 routes, presumably out of either Richmond or Miami. #86577 has been running out of Memphis, even though MEM has no maintenance center.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Man I miss this sound (well mostly for Greyhound). This recording sure brings back memories of when the fleet was made up of 1355 of these buses, plus MC-9s, 102A3s, and the then new 102D3s and 102DL3s.


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## Swadian Hardcore

#3047 was actually powered by a Detroit Diesel Series 50. Look at the engine shot at 11:00, that is a Detroit 50. Also, it is a 1998, not a 1997, but I guess 1998 could be the model year while 1997 could be the build year. All the 1997s and 1998s had the Series 50. The rest of the MC-12s had 6V92TAs.

Second-hand 102EL3 #6665 is running the Amarillo-San Antonio right now. It's the only EL3 in GLI's fleet.

Also, Greyhound just took delivery of 6 Van Hools. They are #0902-0907, and will be used on BoltBus service.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> #3047 was actually powered by a Detroit Diesel Series 50. Look at the engine shot at 11:00, that is a Detroit 50. Also, it is a 1998, not a 1997, but I guess 1998 could be the model year while 1997 could be the build year. All the 1997s and 1998s had the Series 50. The rest of the MC-12s had 6V92TAs.
> 
> Second-hand 102EL3 #6665 is running the Amarillo-San Antonio right now. It's the only EL3 in GLI's fleet.
> 
> Also, Greyhound just took delivery of 6 Van Hools. They are #0902-0907, and will be used on BoltBus service.


I know, Series 50s were unique to Greyhound on only the MC-12s. Thankfully I got to hear those sounds when they were new. I wonder if it's true that the Allison B500 would not fit in the MC-12s?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Also, Greyhound just took delivery of 6 Van Hools. They are #0902-0907, and will be used on BoltBus service.


That's interesting. Do you know anything more than that? Model? Features? Where they'll be based?


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Van Hools are CX45s and were just registered this week. Their VINs are:
#0902 YE2XC22B8F3048553
#0903 YE2XC21B1F3048668
#0904 YE2XC21B3F3048669
#0905 YE2XC21B1F3048671
#0906 YE2XC21B1F3048685
#0907 YE2XC22B5F3048705

That's all I know. As you see, the serial numbers are non-linear, similar to the D4505s that were just delivered last week. I've also posted the info on GTE.

AFAIK, the MC-12s with Series 50s had B500 transmissions with the fifth sixth gear locked out.

I just saw this shot from Oklahoma City: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/19174729238/sizes/h/. I'm very interested in the plain-white DL3 and G4500. I've ridden #7076 before. I don't know if it's plain white for retirement, or if they want to refurbish it.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, you mention that the mc-12 had 5th gear locked out. The ones that I road that I know from the sound had the series 50 Detroit sounded like they shifted as a 5 speed, not a four speed. That seems odd that they would lock out high gear when that's the gear you get best fuel mileage in. Any idea why they did that?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sorry, I made a mistake. The B500 is a 6-speed automatic, and the 6th gear was locked out, so it would be shifting as a 5-speed. I was unable to find out why the 6th gear was locked out, but I do know those particular buses could not exceed 70 mph.


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## mightyjoe1201

That just makes no sense locking high gear out. Unless it was actually low they locked but greyhound tends to do strange things sometimes.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The Van Hools are CX45s and were just registered this week. Their VINs are:
> 
> #0902 YE2XC22B8F3048553
> 
> #0903 YE2XC21B1F3048668
> 
> #0904 YE2XC21B3F3048669
> 
> #0905 YE2XC21B1F3048671
> 
> #0906 YE2XC21B1F3048685
> 
> #0907 YE2XC22B5F3048705
> 
> That's all I know. As you see, the serial numbers are non-linear, similar to the D4505s that were just delivered last week. I've also posted the info on GTE.


Any word on what engine/transmission those CX45s have?


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Sorry, I made a mistake. The B500 is a 6-speed automatic, and the 6th gear was locked out, so it would be shifting as a 5-speed. I was unable to find out why the 6th gear was locked out, but I do know those particular buses could not exceed 70 mph.


That's strange that they could not exceed 70mph with the Series 50 engine/B500. A lot of transit buses had those engines/transmissions and were able to get up to 70+ with no issues.


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## mightyjoe1201

CJ. Greyhound probably had the engine governed at 70. The series 50 and newer model Detroit's are computerised so all they had to do was program the top speed along with horsepower and torque. Plus they probably ordered it that way. If it's not ordered or the shops don't set it, the speed etc are left wide open


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm looking at old GTE messages and all I can find out is that the MC-12s with Series 50s had the B500 transmission, with the 6th gear locked out, and were capped at 70 mph, possibly by a governor, or possibly by the high gear being locked out. There was a post stating that, if the driver tried to force more out of the engine, it would spew black smoke.

Reportedly, tire wear has been a problem with the IFS-equipped buses, like the X3-45. I'm hoping the commuter agencies won't override the requirements of the intercity lines for more durable buses.


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## Caesar La Rock

That does make sense, thanks guys. Also, I found another picture of a blue Van Hool.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/13659366223/in/[email protected]/


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## Swadian Hardcore

Initial reports are that the new CX45s will be used in the Northeast.

Also, #6277 has finally departed Reno tonight as Schedule 1314 to Denver. It had come from SLC two or three days ago and sat here for awhile. Presumably it was awaiting maintenance in Reno.


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## Swadian Hardcore

More information about the guy that jumped out of a Greyhound bus: http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/passengers-watched-as-man-climbed-out-of-bus_51074882.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Denver RTD just unveiled their new D4500CT for Flatiron Flyer the Denver-Boulder BRT service: http://www3.rtd-denver.com/elbert/news/index.cfm?id=7145. 

I was shocked to find that they claim the D4500CT has "750 cubic feet of storage space". No frigging way! More transit agency BS I see, or perhaps it was MCI misinformation.

And the seats are still American Seating 2095. No seat belts, and no containment.

More news on MCI's website: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2015-07-01-rtd-denver.htm. 

This clique that's formed between MCI and the transit agencies needs to get cracked for the good of the bus industry and the general public. I'd actually prefer the D4500CT over the X3-45 if only it had more consistent quality, Amaya or National seating, and offer something other than a Cummins engine.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Denver RTD just unveiled their new D4500CT for Flatiron Flyer the Denver-Boulder BRT service: http://www3.rtd-denver.com/elbert/news/index.cfm?id=7145.
> 
> I was shocked to find that they claim the D4500CT has "750 cubic feet of storage space". No frigging way! More transit agency BS I see, or perhaps it was MCI misinformation.
> 
> And the seats are still American Seating 2095. No seat belts, and no containment.
> 
> More news on MCI's website: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2015-07-01-rtd-denver.htm.
> 
> This clique that's formed between MCI and the transit agencies needs to get cracked for the good of the bus industry and the general public. I'd actually prefer the D4500CT over the X3-45 if only it had more consistent quality, Amaya or National seating, and offer something other than a Cummins engine.


Much of that is simply that the transit agencies are spec'ing that stuff. Agencies could opt for Amaya or National, but most purchases whatever seats are the cheapest, come standard, or they have a particular model they've standardized on. Also, most agencies would prefer Cummins engines, since they're the most popular in the transit arena. In fact I'm not sure that Gillig, New Flyer and Nova Bus offer anything other than Cummins engines.

I'm actually more puzzled by how RTD can call a service that uses a D4500CT "Bus Rapid Transit." Boarding a coach style bus is anything but rapid. This is a freeway express service.


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## rickycourtney

KNBC is reporting that a Greyhound bus crashed into a ditch near San Bernardino,CA after a passenger grabbed the steering wheel.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Bus-Crashes-Near-San-Bernardino-311650001.html

This type of crash seems to happen somewhat regularly on Greyhound buses. Not sure what can be done to stop someone from grabbing the wheel. The aisle gates are more of a psychological deterrent, since they can be easily defeated by someone who's determined.

I'd say it's time to give drivers a more secured compartment, but you still need to have proper emergency egress. On top of that, Greyhound isn't a big enough customer anymore to demand a total ground up redesign of a bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like Schedule 1351 Chicago-Los Angeles. The bus is a blue G4500. Don't know what the number is, but appears to be #7264. Damage seems to be minor, expect bus to be repaired and returned to service. Greyhound has got to do something about this. Remember, last time this happened, it was also on I-10 between Los Angeles and Phoenix, except last time it was a Los Angeles-Dallas schedule.

It appears that the assailant kicked out the front windshield after the bus crashed and escaped. The windshields are designed to be kicked out at the edges in the event of an accident. A completely secure driver compartment wouldn't be unsafe as long as all the side windows can be opened in the event of an accident. Perhaps making a solid Plexiglas door at the front of the aisle would be the best solution.

Edit: Yeah, it is #7264. Schedule 1351 (7/2) is showing up as "Canceled between San Bernardino and Los Angeles." The map icon shows #7264 at the exact location where it was reportedly crashed.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Looks like the GPS on BusTracker is indeed highly accurate. You can see how #7264 veered off to the right of westbound I-10. Last updated at 2:52 PM.

Greyhound 7264 Attacked & Crashed.pdf


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, this is not fair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs1H2guCq-E.

That's a Coach America bus and a Coach America driver. Yet Greyhound got flamed for it four years ago. I'm glad Coach America is gone now and Greyhound no longer interlines with their successors.

Here's another video showing a smelly passenger being kicked off a X3-45: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPyRKO-Ebok.


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## rickycourtney

The passengers in those videos are why many people will never even consider riding Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't even know what started up that fight. Looks like it was in the San Antonio terminal.

At least Greyhound kicked the smelly passenger off the bus. They need to do that more often. Greyhound needs to crack down on suspicious and stupid passengers before they cause trouble, rather than banning bus photography.


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## mightyjoe1201

Why do people have to be so Damn stubborn. Lol. How did greyhound get blames for what happened on the first video? It clearly days coach USA on the bus


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## mightyjoe1201

I wish we could kick passengers like that smelly guy off our buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I really hope Greyhound can sort out security problems and clean up their clientele. That, along with the Painful Premiers, is one of the last big hurdles for Greyhound. E-ticketing would help, but the current ticketing system is not that bad compared to having fights, attacks, smelly passengers, and other assorted disorder going on in the stations and buses.

Any suggestions for things Greyhound could do about this?

I'm going on a trip on Wednesday, and I wouldn't want my bus to be attacked. Though since I sit in the front, I could probably trip any assailant or jump him from behind when he goes after the driver.

Is there's anything that keeps the less-upstanding drivers from internationally driving slow to get overtime pay?

Edit: Regarding that Coach America bus, it is quite common that anything bad about motorcoaches instantly gets labeled "Greyhound". To make things worse, that bus company had been interlining with Greyhound.


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## Caesar La Rock

Coach America was the biggest piece of crap ever. When they were Coach USA in the late 90s and through the early 2000s, they took over and dismantled so many good companies down here. Their fleet shrunk significantly from hundreds of buses to only a few dozen, before they became Coach America. No one misses that company down here.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Coach America went bankrupt and is dead. Its remaining assets were taken over by Coach USA or sold. That's how Greyhound got the single 102EL3, J4500s, and H3-45s.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Coach America went bankrupt and is dead. Its remaining assets were taken over by Coach USA or sold. That's how Greyhound got the single 102EL3, J4500s, and H3-45s.


Glad it did in 2012. Where does that 102EL3 operate? Do you know the number on that coach?


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## mightyjoe1201

Is there a difference between the 102EL3 and the J4500? The pictures I've seen they both look alike


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 102EL3 is #6665 (VIN 1M8TRMPAXXP060606) and is based out of either Dallas or Amarillo. Probably Dallas. It's a 1999 bus.

The EL3 has a lot more electronics than the J4500 and also has a tinted stripe along the top of the windshields, resulting in a smaller "forehead". The rear end is also different.

Here's a J4500: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-2004-mci-j4500-56-passenger-highway-coach-c62500. 

Here's a 102EL3: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1999-mci-102-el3-56-passenger-highway-coach-with-6-video-monitors-c60627.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. Other then the stripe above the windshields I can't see a difference even in the rear end. I'd probably have to see it in person


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## Swadian Hardcore

The E's rear end is squarer than the J, but there really isn't much of a difference. I believe the engine compartment in the same.

Since I'm heading to Texas tomorrow, I'll be heavily watching BusTracker. Looks like today's 1308 to SLC was Blue G #30515. I wish I could have gone on that one, but that's OK, I'll see what come today on from SLC. Usually, the bus from SLC will be the next day's bus to SLC.

Yesterday's bus to Denver was second-hand 1997 DL3 #6966, but that bus was dropped at SLC this morning. So today's bus from SLC might just be #6966. Fingers crossed.


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## rickycourtney

In terms of marketing (which doesn't always reflect reality):

The E series was MCI's flagship tour/charter coach. It had all the bells and whistles that supposedly impress passengers.

The J series is MCI's middle of the road tour/charter coach. It has bells and whistles, but at a more affordable price. (That's why it undercut the E's sales.)

The D series is MCI's middle of the road intercity coach. It's supposed to strike a balance between reliability, while still having a few creature comforts.

The G series was MCI's bare bones intercity coach. It was built to be inexpensive.

Here's the model page from January 2006 from when MCI still sold all 4 coaches.


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## rickycourtney

One thing Greyhound could consider is a barrier that encloses the operator. Several transit agencies (including SF MUNI) are now equipping buses with them. The idea is to mostly seal off the drivers area floor to ceiling and first row to windshield using plexiglass (so the driver can still see). The latch keeping the barrier closed can only be operated from the inside.

It takes Greyhound's aisle gate idea and advances it one step further.

The other major suggestion is to have more predictable security. That means rules are enforced fairly and consistently by guards that are either Greyhound staff or a nationwide contractor. I'd also institute a program where security officers (both uniformed and plainclothes) regularly and randomly ride routes and kick passengers off for misbehavior (after fair warning of course).

If it becomes widely known (even by word of mouth) that rule breaking will not be tolerated, it might make some (but not all) passengers less likely to misbehave.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound drivers should also be more willing to kick passengers off the bus. There was a smelly jerk last year on #86535 that had peed his pants and refused to let anyone sit by him, even though the bus was sold out. He was mumbling and obviously had mental problems. The driver threatened to call the police if he didn't let anyone sit by him, but didn't kick him off the bus. If I was the driver, I would have kicked him out for the greater good of the other passengers.

The contracted security guards themselves seem less than competent. They seem more interested with preventing bus photography than with catching suspicious and disruptive passengers. Obviously, security failed to catch those passengers that attacked the buses. Instead of banning photography, Greyhound should be banning misbehavior.

On a different topic, the bus from SLC today was #6389, so I'll probably be on that bus tomorrow to SLC. That's fine with me, it's a DL3.


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## mightyjoe1201

Kicking someone off a bus cause of bad hygiene is a sticky situation. You have a fine line to walk because you don't want to upset other passengers. Greyhound has the ability to throw someone off without too much penalty but it's still a fine line. No one wants to be embarrassed. With greyhound you also need to consider how long the person has Bern traveling. We all know that a bus trip of several days you font have anywhere to shower.

As to misbehavior, they really could do better at catching it. Sometimes the security guards just plain don't care because their probably not getting paid enough to care. Drivers also need to be more aware before they pull out.


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## mightyjoe1201

Good luck on your trip. Hopefully you'll have goof weather.

If you can, keep your eyes open for me, you might pass our two nee gilligs that are on their way here from California.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The main problem is that the guy on #86535 deserved to get kicked off. He wasn't just smelly, he peed his pants and soiled the seat pair. He was also mumbling to himself and refused to let anybody sit by him, even though the bus was sold out.

He could have walked the few yards to the restroom at the back of the bus rather than peeing on the seats. Thankfully, those are vinyl seats and would have been easily cleaned in Denver, the destination of the bus.

It's been really rainy the past few afternoons in Reno. Lots of quick thunder showers. I'll get up early tomorrow to catch the bus. Reno-Salt Lake City is one of the better rides.

On Facebook I saw a Greyhound driver complaining about a HVAC failure on X3-45 #86024. He says it was over 100 degrees inside. The thermometer failed and showed "--". He was running an Albany-White River Junction deadhead; it's not a scheduled route.


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## mightyjoe1201

That smelly guy not only was a disruption but greyhound should have thrown him off after he peed himself. That's a bio hazard. Thankfully the seats are easy yo clean. The old cloth seats would have been a problem. It took me and our mechanics several days to clean a seat after a passenger crapped all over it and it'd just plastic with a piece of cloth over it.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hope they fixed that x3 before it went out on any kind of a run


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not sure if White River Junction has a garage or not. If not, it would have had to go on a run to get fixed. Though I do think Vermont Transit may have had a garage there that Greyhound inherited. Not sure if it would have been closed already, though.


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## rickycourtney

Honestly, while drivers should be allowed to remove passengers when necessary, they shouldn't be tasked with that duty on a regular basis.

Permit me to tell a non-Greyhound story to explain my reasoning.

Here in Seattle, drivers on King County Metro buses are supposed to firmly request that all passengers pay a fare as they board. If they don't they're not supposed to do anything else except radio it into their supervisor, who may request that the transit police meet the bus and remove and cite the passenger. In practice, most drivers won't say anything to passengers who won't pay and won't radio in the violation, because drivers have been assaulted (punched, stabbed or shot) by passengers who they requested pay the fare.

On the other hand, we also have a few routes that operate as "proof-of-payment" where contracted fare enforcement officers board and ask to see passengers valid passes or transfers. These officers always travel in teams and wear protective vests. To my knowledge, none has been seriously assaulted by a passenger.

Back to Greyhound... if drivers are having to regularly confront passengers it creates an us versus them situation on the bus. It's much cleaner and less emotional if a security officer is the one who demands a passenger gets off the bus. But to make that work Greyhound would either need to spend more money to hire a nationwide contractor to staff and train guards or create its own security department that employs and trains guards.


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## Swadian Hardcore

What the heck? #6389 is sitting in Reno while #86308 gets sent to Salt Lake on the 1308. I'm very unhappy with this bus. It smells like pee inside and the seats are ALL broken. Greyhound better step it up from here on out or else I'm boycotting Greyhound. My armrest has been unhinged. I'll be requesting a refund. These Painful Premiers are unacceptable and need to be replaced immediately!

Next time I'm flying.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hopefully you won't have that bus your entire trip. Maybe you can convince other passengers to file complaints also


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What the heck? #6389 is sitting in Reno while #86308 gets sent to Salt Lake on the 1308. I'm very unhappy with this bus. It smells like pee inside and the seats are ALL broken. Greyhound better step it up from here on out or else I'm boycotting Greyhound. My armrest has been unhinged. I'll be requesting a refund. These Painful Premiers are unacceptable and need to be replaced immediately!
> 
> Next time I'm flying.


You should request a refund, I'll be interested to hear what kind of response you get.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh yeah, I'm definitely requesting a refund. No one should be made to endure a 9.5-hour ride on a rotten D4505 smelling of excrement. But I don't think the other passengers would do it with me, considering their questionable behavior. The guy across from me insisted on offering me a cigarette as a gift. I don't smoke. This bus not only reeked of urine, but also had some of the worst clientele I've seen on Greyhound. The seat also left me with back pain.

Thankfully, I'm in the Radisson SLC for a night's rest before continuing. This is an excellent hotel, in case you guys ever come out here. BusTracker isn't working properly, so I need some time to figure out what tommorow's bus will be.


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## mightyjoe1201

Good luck with your complaint and with the rest of your trip.

I'm not surprised that the other passengers were like u said. People both don't know and don't care that there are rules and that there should be courtesy given to fellow riders.

I hope greyhound actually does something besides a refund about that bus. That's a good way to lose customers


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## rickycourtney

I'm surprised you didn't ask for a refund as you stepped off the bus in SLC.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're right, I probably should have done that. Oh well. I was tired and eagar to get to the hotel.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Since BusTracker isn't working correctly for me, could someone please check the 1314 and 1318 for today, please? Thanks.


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## rickycourtney

1314 - G4500 #7045

1318 - D4505 #86398 (There's a note that there was more than one vehicle was operating on 1318 today and those additional vehicles are not tracked.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, I'm in Denver now. The bus was D4505 #86317. Seat was uncomfortable, but otherwise OK. Clientele was better. Overall, considering the uncomfortable seats, I'd still rather fly. Since Greyhound still has tons of rotten D4505, my boycott of Greyhound stands. I will lift this boycott when Greyhound gets rid of every last Painful Premier. GLC west of Sudbury is exempt from the boycott due to having zero Painful Premiers, as well as GLI short hauls near Reno. Also, GLI north of Seattle is exempt since a driver told me the GLI D4505s are prohibited from Canada. GLC D4505s don't have Premiers.

BoltBus is boycotted due to Painful Premiers.

OK, my next step is to choose a good intercontinental airline alliance and stay loyal to make the best use of Frequent Flyer miles. OneWorld sounds like the best. AA is their member from the USA.

Looks like BusTracker was broken and reported the previous day's buses. But thanks anyway for checking, Ricky. This is Greyhound's fault.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I will lift this boycott when Greyhound gets rid of every last Painful Premier.


Good luck with that. You seem to really like bus travel, and it will be years, dare I say a decade, before Greyhound gets rid of every last Premier seat.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Doesn't matter. I'm just going to fly. No big deal.

I'm actually on X3-45 #60414 right now. It's actually quite comfortable and I was able to mitigate the Painful Permier by sitting on my jacket. This X3-45 has TVs and window shades. It's based from Dallas. I got the front row seat. Driver Joseph Dent is great. Bus ride is smooth, quiet, and fast. Perhaps the D4505 is a bigger problem.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hearing this just makes me want more to take a long trip on greyhound to find out what you guys are complaining about. Lol. Unfortunately the trip I'm planning u have to either fly it drive. Greyhound would take too long for me to get there.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, I slept at a hotel in Plainview, and I'm heading to Fredericksburg today on the 7261. They sent a White G, #7077, which suffered a front end suspension failure right in Plainview. We're waiting in Plainview for a replacement bus from Lubbock.


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## mightyjoe1201

Unless they have someone who can't drive, your replacement bus shouldn't be much longer if not have you on your way. That's if I remember my way around from my truck driving days. Lubbock really isn't too far from where your at.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, they promptly sent us the replacement bus. I'm in Lubbock already. It's DL3 #6309. Much more comfortable and cleaner than the White G. The DL3 never disappoints. Lubbock actually has a very nice terminal.

This bus was supposed to run Lubbock-El Paso, but that run has now been canceled. Passengers to El Paso transfer at Big Spring to a Dallas-Los Angeles run. The driver from El Paso is now driving. The driver from Amarillo is just riding. There was actually a cushioning driver heading to El Paso who is now going through Big Spring as well. So basically, we have 3 drivers on the bus right now.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sounds like your in heaven riding that DL3. Lol. Hope the rest of your trip goes smoothly


----------



## Bob Dylan

At least you're on a fairly comfortable bus to enjoy the moon like scenery in the Texas Panhandle!( there's no there there!)


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## Swadian Hardcore

The DL3 is heaven compared to a White G or D4505. Those buses have a weird odor; the DL3 rarely ever has an odor. Also, the X3-45 yesterday had no odor.

The Amarillo driver got off at Lubbock. Driver Gilbert from El Paso is driving and Rhonda is cushioning to Big Spring. Currently heading south on US 87 at 75 mph. Should be in Fredericksburg two hours late. These Texas drivers are definitely better than the Nevada/Utah/Colorado drivers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm on I-10 headed to San Antonio. The bus is late again, but that just gave me more time in the museum. I'm on second-hand J4500 #6989. We're convoying with J4500 #6992 from El Paso.

My seat is a FAINSA Brasil with the narrow headrest. Loads of legroom. I don't think I've ever seen so much legroom on Greyhound except in the wheelchair position.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just realized that I forgot to tell you guys that the J4500 was also driven by Joseph Dent. He's cool.

I saw J4500 #6993 in San Antonio and then J4500 #6990 in Houston headed to Dallas. I'm sure Greyhound has them based in Dallas. #6990 has American Seating 2003.

I'm in Houston now and I rode Blue G #7274 from San Antonio. Great smooth ride and lots of legroom; vastly superior to the D4505 and White G. Ugh, I hate those pieces of junk.

A question for the bus drivers: Why would the driver pump the brakes? Apparently thee was a front end brake failure on #7077 and the driver said the bus would bottom out if they hit any bump.

I saw C2045 #86808 in San Antonio with a VTC driver and another VTC Van Hool in Houston.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, regarding pumping the breaks, some drivers will do that to try to ease the jolt as he comes to a complete stop. It definitely wasn't to build up pressure because on air brakes the more you pump them the more air pressure you lose. A lot of older and old school style drivers tend to do that.

Hope they get the brake problem fixed right on 7077 because that's deadly. You wouldn't have liked it too much if it would have bottomed out. Your lucky that bus even did anything.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's why I couldn't understand the driver. She wasn't pumping to brakes to come to a stop. We were already stopped. Heck, the bus actually didn't do anything. It pulled up to the stop at Plainview, and I got on, and the driver got on. Then we went nowhere, except to park the bus to get it out of the way.

She said the bus had a front end air pressure problem, so she called for help and opened the first luggage hatch in the left. Keep in mind this is an old driver. She tinkered around that for a bit, then came back in and started pumping the brakes for about 5 minutes, all while we had already been stationary.

I'm not sure if the problem involved the front end brakes, front end suspension, or borh. What I did see is that the bus was stuck in kneeling position and knelt even more the longer we stopped. I think it would've bottomed out on the spot with the front sinking down.

Not sure how Greyhound handled it eventually as we simply ditched the bus at the gas station, door open, engine off, and unattended. The engine was actually working properly all the way.


----------



## mightyjoe1201

Sounds like she was trying to get the air compressor to kick on and build air up. The bus can only drop so far then it hits stops


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks, that makes sense; the engine was working properly.

I'm on Houston Metro's new D4500CTH with the Kiel Seating. The bus also has the new interior and IFS. Unfortunately, the ride is very rough and slow. Perhaps it has to do with the hybrid equipment underneath. Also, the new flap air vents are broken already.

That being said, it still beats a D4505. The bus doesn't smell bad and the seats are more comfortable. Being slimline, they offer loads of legroom. However, recline is minimal and the seat is quite hard. Lumber support is top notch.

Also, for some reason, the bus rides much better on the highway than on local roads.

Thoughts?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Swadian: Houston is infamous for, among other things, its rough,pothole filled streets!

Have you been on the Main Street Lite Rail yet? It stops by the Greyhound Station.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound Lines announced today that it will now operate domestic service within Mexico.

Passengers will now be able to travel on 13 daily departures between Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo, from new stations in each of the cities. There will also be 10 daily departures between Monterrey and several cities in Texas (Laredo, San Antonio, Austin & Dallas).

Greyhound says this makes it the first U.S.-based intercity bus company to operate domestic service within Mexico.

It's an interesting announcement... but there are a lot of domestic carriers in Mexico offering everything from bare-bones to luxury service. It seems like a crowded market to compete in.

Full announcement: http://bloggreyhound.com/news/greyhound-makes-history-with-launch-of-service-in-mexico/


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## Bob Dylan

One of the anomilies about Greyhound de Mexico is that Mexicans could purchase tickets for Greyhound cheaper in Mexico than in the US. There were Greyhound tickets available for sale in all Large Mexican Cities, you would transfer @ the Border from a Mexican Bus to a Greyhound.

There actually was a dedicated Lane @ the Laredo, Texas Greyhound Station that had a Sign that said "Latino Expresso/ Laredo a Chicago" and the bus only made a few stops between Laredo and Chicago.( ie San Antonio, Dallas, Little Rock, St. Louis, Chicago)

Not sure this is still the case with so many Mexican Bus Lines and the tighter Border Security after 9-11??


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## Swadian Hardcore

I rode the light rail yesterday. I really liked the exterior, though I found the inside too cold. Traffic seems like a big problem here.

Greyhound used to operate the Chicago-Laredo until it was subcontracted to SITA under the Autobuses Latinos brand. The route was run by DL3s borrowed off the Transcon routes and was shortly discontinued.

Maybe I shouldn't blame the D4500CTH. I really like the new interior and the Kiel seats, but the air vents need to be more durable and the seats could be a bit softer. The Germans really do know their lumbar support.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Could a driver please explain why the driver of #86317 kept the DEFROST on during most of the drive from DEN to SLC? Most of the time the DEFROST was on either 1 or 3.


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## mightyjoe1201

More then likely to help clear the windshield. I know on our buses when it's raining, hot and the air on the Windows like to fog up


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## Swadian Hardcore

There was certainly no fog on the windshield. I was sitting in the front, and the windshield was crystal clear. Furthermore, it was a warm, clear summer day in Wyoming. One could see for miles.

On the way back, I reviewed the ride quality of the D4500CTH. I thought about the front-back, left-right, and up-down ride quality. The potholes would have caused mostly up-down instability, but there wasn't too much of that. Left-right instability was occasionally caused by tilting while turning.

But the majority of the instability was front-back. The motorcoach jerked heavily at every deceleration and acceleration. It seemed like the brakes were very rough. I'm not sure why; anyone have thoughts?

BTW, I love the new interior. Looks amazing.


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## mightyjoe1201

It's possible that your driver was getting little a/ c thru the vents and put the defrost on to help. But anything is possible.


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## railiner

Surprised a warm climate city like Houston should have such a pothole problem....potholes are usually caused by repeated freeze/defrost cycles common in Northern climes...

As for running the defrost, I would agree with the above post....sometimes the baffles that direct the driver's blowers don't operate properly, and the only way for the driver to get sufficient circulation is to utilize the defrost mode....

As for the rough fore and aft movement.....well....that can be caused by poor driving technique....instead of gently modulating the throttle, the driver is on or off to control the speed, causing 'whiplash' effect for the passenger. Some of our old 102C-3's that had the CAT engines made 'bad' driver's out of anyone with their hard to control throttle's...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the info. Since the D4505 driver was keeping defrost on to circulate air, I'm inferring that the D4505 many have other air circulation problems that caused the odors and stuffy air. The air quality can best be described as full if dirty carpet particles. In the case of #86308, this was mixed with the added odor of urine embedded into the seats.

Seems like the new D's often jerk when accelerating or braking. Even senior drivers seem unable to handle the new D's properly. I'm not sure why this always seems to happening on the new D's and not the other buses.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh GREAT! I'm on #6925 bottomed out in Huntsville! We're on Schedule 6494, I think. Houston-Dallas. Even worse, we've been bottomed out across a major road, blocking traffic.


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## Caesar La Rock

I wonder if Greyhound has ever tested Temsa before?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Not to my knowledge. The TS35 and TS30 could be very useful.


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## Caesar La Rock

Orlando has been testing a Temsa (45ft bus) for few days now. A number of companies have bought some Temsas too. Something big is going to happen with Van Hool and Florida transit systems. I won't go into details on that until more information comes out.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think, as far as 45-footers go, Prevost probably beats Temsa, Setra, or Van Hool, if not simply with that silky-smooth ride. But for smaller buses, Temsa is definitely king with their 30- and 35-footers.

Van Hool seems perfect for the likes of Megabus and other low-cost, short-haul bus lines. Setra is probably better for charters and tours.

Here's a brand-new Greyhound D4505, which is apparently owned by South Carolina and boasts the new interior, LED headlights, and presumably IFS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wgabb/19741976292/. 

Interior shot off Facebook attached.


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## Caesar La Rock

ABC Companies (aka Van Hool) is about to release the CX35, so ABC will be competing against the TS35 from Temsa.

http://www.abc-companies.com/about/press-releases/show/70

http://www.metro-magazine.com/motorcoach/news/293258/abc-features-new-coaches-partnerships-and-future-plans-at-uma-expo

The TD925 is now TDX25.


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## rickycourtney

The new interior is a nice update, but the design all feels so dated at this point.

The LED headlights are nice and are where most public operators are specifying these days.

I really like the illuminated fasten seatbelt sign in the passenger service units. I wonder if the driver has a switch to control those lights like a pilot does on an aircraft.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> I really like the illuminated fasten seatbelt sign in the passenger service units. I wonder if the driver has a switch to control those lights like a pilot does on an aircraft.


I would hope not....the driver does not need another task to perform....the signs should always flash when a seat is occupied, until the belts are fastened....just like the way they operate in modern cars......


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## Swadian Hardcore

I rode Houston Metro's D4500CTH with the same interior. The seat belt signs stay on at all times. I guess they would only turn off when the engine has been shut off.

I wish MCI would start designing a K4500 already. The big forehead of the D4505 is really ugly IMO. What was MCI thinking?

BTW, the 86500s have a different forehead from the 86300s. Their forehead interior panel is completely one piece and smooth. The 86300s have a rounded panel bolted in on the interior. Also, the 102DL3 parcel racks are different from the old D4505. The DL3 had molded depressions on the racks.

Edit: You know, there's one problem with the D4505 that I can't put my finger on. It's the air inside. There's also a weird smell/odor and the air is stuffy. None of the other Greyhounds, even the second-hand J4500, had this smell.


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## rickycourtney

I honestly think the smell is a Greyhound thing. I've been on plenty of D4505, D4500, D4500CL and D4500CT coaches and none of them have a smell (except for a new bus smell on Amtrak California's new D4505 coaches).

Maybe it's being caused by how Greyhound is maintaining the AC system on its D4505 coaches.

For the record, the one Greyhound D4505 I've been on didn't have any particular smell. The passengers on the other hand...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I noticed that Greyhound uses grey synthetic carpet as their interior fabric on the D4505. This is the only bus I've ridden or seen interior photos of that had grey carpet interiors. Perhaps this carpet holds odors very easily and traps the odors of smelly passengers. I don't know, it's just a theory.

Another theory is that perhaps Greyhound's high mileage on their D4505s make them smell worse. And let's not forgot those Painful Premiers that often crack and break. Clearly, they were built with cheap materials which could contribute to the weird smell.

Lastly, maybe Greyhound has deferred maintenance on the HVAC in Los Angeles Maintenance Center or maybe the HVAC falls apart at a certain mileage.

I guess, most realistically, it's probably a combination of dirty passengers, dirty carpet, bad seats, inconsistent build quality, and poor maintenance. That being said, the ex-Americanos 102DL3s I rode to/from Los Angeles were in better shape than some of these D4505s and did not have the odor. The D4505s also smell different from the G4500's signature smell.

Is there some way Greyhound can get rid of the loitering suspicious people in front of their terminals? It's a good way to driver away customers.

Also, I noticed how the Florida Turnpike bypasses Orlando, and Greyhound buses have to detour a long way just to stop at the Orlando terminal. Isn't there a better way, like US 441?


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## Caesar La Rock

US 441 gets riddled with traffic very easily. Plus, do you really want passengers to see the ghettoest part of Orlando?  Nothing beats traveling down US 441 then seeing all the drug dealers, drunks, homeless, pimps, and prostitutes out at night and the early morning hours.

Who knows, they might even see a police chase if they're lucky and could be part of it too. ^_^ It's bad enough that an Amtrak station is not too far away from US 441.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Couldn't Greyhound run schedules that bypass Orlando? I know it's a big city, but through service could bypass it and locals could connect along the way, like how the subways work in New York City.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Couldn't Greyhound run schedules that bypass Orlando? I know it's a big city, but through service could bypass it and locals could connect along the way, like how the subways work in New York City.


Greyhound used to run lots of trips straight down US 1 and later I-95 along the coast....there were some that ran nonstop from Jacksonville to either Fort Lauderdale or Miami, with only a highway rest stop around Ft. Pierce. Greyhound has pretty much given up local service along the Florida east coast, as well...to get from Daytona to Fort Pierce, you must go inland to Orlando, and back out... \

I see there are a couple of odd trips that run express from Atlanta and Jacksonville via Fort Pierce to West Palm Beach and beyond....


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## Swadian Hardcore

The detour to get into Orlando is bad enough from the north, but it's really bad from the west. The 1262 Houston-Miami takes huge detours just to make various stops in Florida. Just look at its route on BusTracker. From Pensacola, it dives down on US 98 to Fort Walton Beach and Panama City. Then it takes US 231 north to Florida 20, makes a right turn, and continues to Tallahassee, then rejoins US 90. It also makes a big detour on US 441 to make the Gainesville stop. There's the huge detour from the Florida Turnpike to reach Orlando, and finally, a detour in Fort Lauderdale because the Greyhound station there is far off I-95. They should just stop at the Amtrak/Tri-Rail Fort Lauderdale, which is right by I-95 and had excellent transit connections.

Would it be viable to run a really fast route from Pensacola straight to Fort Pierce or West Palm Beach with a single break stop in Ocala? Then have another run connect at Pensacola to make all the other stops far from the freeway, similar to NYC Subway operation.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, I know how you feel about the D4505 so I figured you'd get a luck out of this. I know it's not greyhound, but one of Fullington trailways D4505 is broke down at our bus station again. I was told it's been there since Saturday. Not sure what happened but was told it just won't go anywhere.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I hear a lot of complaints about Fullington. They must be doing something really wrong. Looks like they have even worse maintenance than Greyhound. Dead Greyhound buses generally get towed away to get repaired and put back into service. But it looks like Fullington has just put it off.

Here's their SAFER record: https://ai.fmcsa.dot.gov/SMS/Carrier/120909/Overview.aspx.

I forgot to tell you, Joe, but on my way back from Texas, I was riding westbound SLC-Reno and passed a transit bus heading east in the middle of the desert. Must have been a delivery run. It was going at a fair speed. We also passed a huge convoy of Coach USA buses heading east, including D4505s, C2045s, 102D3s, and maybe others. There was at least ten buses in the convoy.

Also, we were overtaken on the freeway by a pair of 102D3s. We were going about 70 mph, and they must have been going 75 or 80. Speed limit is 75. They were going really fast in the rain. Those 102D3s without a governor can leave a D4505 in the dust with its powerful Series 60 and relatively small size.

Edit: I also saw tons of OVERSIZE LOAD trucks throughout the trip. They were usually escorted by pickups with flashing lights both ahead and behind. One was carrying a John Deere tractor eastbound on I-80 in Wyoming, many were carrying huge fan blades down US 287, and a few in Texas were carrying various blue and orange pressure tanks.


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## rickycourtney

I think that even synthetic carpet is a bad choice on a Greyhound bus. Seems like a good way to absorb and trap smells.

In fact I can't recall ever being on a bus with carpet (tour, intercity or transit).


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, yeah, it's not first time they've left a bus at our station for days. They're too cheap to have it towed so it sits till they're guys cam get to it from I think state college.

There's a good chance it was one of two that we just got. Our one was delivered this past Wednesday morning and the other contractor's came that night.

80 is a main route for oversize loads.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The synthetic carpet wasn't on the floor. The floor is just classic black rubber. The carpet was on the seatbacks, sidewalls, and headliner. I think passengers stomp their dirty shoes onto the seat back in front and leave dirt and grime all over. Disgusting.

Joe, how are Fullington's guys going to get it from State College if it's broken down and won't go anywhere?


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, they're guys usually come from out state college area after it to try to get it running enough to get the bus back to their shop out there. If that don't work then they get a row truck for it. Last time the bus sat for a week and ended up being towed amyway


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## Swadian Hardcore

No need to apologize. These bus companies should realize that it's cheaper to just maintain their buses properly and not purchase particularly unreliable models like the D4505. Sure, any bus can break down, but the D4505s simply break down too much considering how new they are. A bus that's sitting isn't making money. A bus that's falling apart and smelling like urine is driving away passengers.

I don't understand why bus lines keep making these mistakes. They keep deferring maintenance. They keep taking huge loans to buy new buses then struggle to pay monthly payments. They keep buying unreliable and/or inefficient buses. They keep buying painful seats like the Premier. They keep making stops and detours that don't generate much, if any, passengers.


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## mightyjoe1201

I apologized cause I thought maybe I'd typed it to you not understanding it.

I wish I had the answer to that question of maintenance myself. There is no reason to keep pushing maintenance off. They go into debt to buy these buses because the people doing the buying won't listen to the shop, drivers or passengers. They swallow whatever lies the manufacturer gives them. It also gives them the ability to saw they have an all late model fleet.


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## mightyjoe1201

As for the passengers it may just b that if they stop service there would b none in that area and people would have to go to far for a bus. That's one of those things where you have to take the good with the bad


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think they just keep pushing maintenance off to save money, even though a breakdown causes more losses in the long run. The company owners don't drive or maintain buses. And every manufacturer claims they have the "lowest operating cost". So they just go into debt to buy new buses, even though the monthly payments and extra fuel consumption cuts into profits.

Greyhound seems to be doing better in this regard because they at least kept a lot of their older buses instead of jumping on the bandwagon to buy new buses. But they made the mistake of buying D4505s. That was my favorite bus until they started falling apart. Greyhound CEO Dave Leach used to be a mechanic for GLC, and the early D4505s seemed to have performed well for GLC, so that's probably why he purchased the model. Instead of buying D4505s, Greyhound could have rebuilt more 102DL3s and waited for Prevost to deliver more X3-45s.

Regarding the routes, Greyhound doesn't have to cut local routes, but can't they make the long-distance buses take the fastest route possible while short-distance locals connect to them?


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## mightyjoe1201

Fullington finally sent a wrecker from state college, pa to get their bus this afternoon. Another example of waste. They could have gotten a local company here to tow it for them and probably at a lower cost too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now they still have to fix the bus before they can carry passengers with it again. That'll probably take another day. I doubt five days of inactivity, an expensive tow truck, and repairs to the powertrain will cost less than the money they saved deferring maintenance.

A major problem with Greyhound has been people loitering around the bus terminal. Lots of suspicious people loiter around major Greyhound terminals like Reno, SLC, Denver, Amarillo, San Antonio, Houston, or Dallas. These people appear to have no job, no tickets, and no purpose. They just hang out in front of the Greyhound causing trouble or doing nothing. In Denver, the Greyhound is across the street from the Ritz-Carlton. The Greyhound side of the street is plagued by hoards of suspicious people, while the Ritz-Carlton side is free of loiterers. Can't Greyhound do something to boot the loiterers?


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## mightyjoe1201

That's easier said then done trying to get rid of people like that. Especially if they are outside on a public sidewalk. Best way would probably be to post guards outside to keep them away. Its easier if they are loitering inside. Its even harder if the terminal is owned by the city or local transit authority instead of greyhound or other bus line. We have that problem at ours cause its city owned. We have a guy that is banned from our buses and terminal. He can be chased if inside but not from outside on the sidewalk or the benches.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I understand, but I thought it was illegal to loiter on the sidewalks in some jurisdictions. I think the government should be able to do something about these loiterers. They really give Greyhound a bad image. Greyhound usually doesn't let loiterers into the station, but the guys outside drive away potential customers. People don't even want a Greyhound to stop in their neighborhood for fear of crime and vagrants.

Walking around Downtown Dallas or Denver, I saw no vagrants until I reached the block of the Greyhound bus station. All the vagrants were there. Though, in Dallas, CBD West End is also plagued by loiterers around the Transit Center and light rail station. Dallas also had homeless and vagrants around Union Station.


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## tp49

Loitering laws are a thorny issue because there is a belief it interferes with First Amendment rights. However, there are other ways to deal with that if the local constabulary is so inclined.


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## Swadian Hardcore

But why do people always loiter around transit centers and bus stations? They have no business hanging around doing nothing.


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## CCC1007

Quick getaway maybe?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Unlikely, because if they try to do anything, lots of people are going to see them. And Greyhound last-minute tickets cost tons of money and the bus could be sold out. Plus, there's random security checks and pat-downs at the Houston terminal.

A Greyhound driver on Facebook answered my question about the D4505 odor. He says all the buses with flushing toilets have the odor, which means the D4505s and X3-45s. Residue gets stuck easily in those toilets, he says, and it's hard to clean out. Plus, we all know Greyhound isn't the most detailed when it comes to maintenance. The newest X3-45s (#60401-60420) have a metal flap at the bottom of the toilet bowl to block the odor; I don't know if this is on the other X3-45s or the newest batch of D4505s (#86578-86586). But the old D4505s certainly don't have them, and smell terrible.

IMO, Greyhound should stick to non-flushing toilets, which are much easier to clean, and restrict the D4505s to short-distance routes.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound has signage at the Seattle station prohibiting loitering and trespassing amongst other things, and threatening that the local police make frequent patrols. Not sure how strictly the rules are enforced or if Seattle PD actually makes frequent patrols.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Are there many loiterers around Greyhound Seattle? I guess there wouldn't be much anyway since it's a new location, but I'm sure the signage helps.


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## railiner

Transportation terminal's have always attracted loiterer's for a few reasons.....first, there is shelter and public restrooms available, (regardless of what that sign pictured above states)...second, the "predator's" have easy pickings (could be financial or sexual) with the many naive traveler's to choose from......third, its a convenient place for illegal drug courier's to meet their connections.....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Unlikely, because if they try to do anything, lots of people are going to see them. And Greyhound last-minute tickets cost tons of money and the bus could be sold out. Plus, there's random security checks and pat-downs at the Houston terminal.
> 
> A Greyhound driver on Facebook answered my question about the D4505 odor. He says all the buses with flushing toilets have the odor, which means the D4505s and X3-45s. Residue gets stuck easily in those toilets, he says, and it's hard to clean out. Plus, we all know Greyhound isn't the most detailed when it comes to maintenance. The newest X3-45s (#60401-60420) have a metal flap at the bottom of the toilet bowl to block the odor; I don't know if this is on the other X3-45s or the newest batch of D4505s (#86578-86586). But the old D4505s certainly don't have them, and smell terrible.
> 
> IMO, Greyhound should stick to non-flushing toilets, which are much easier to clean, and restrict the D4505s to short-distance routes.


Agreed! The 'flushing' toilet is a terrible idea....the residue does stick to the sides and the flap. In addition, they simply recycle the waste water (not separate fresh water) to flush with. Over time, tiny bits of toilet paper get clogged into the water jets, and cause bad odor's. They are supposed to be removed and steam -pressure cleaned periodically, but.....you know how that goes....

A plain toilet with a simple hole is much better on a bus..If the toilet ventilation is working properly, there is very little odor from them. The worst odor in a restroom, is actually not from the waste water which is chemically treated, but rather from urine residue on the toilet rims and the floor around it....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I guess if Greyhound checks tickets for everyone trying to enter the station, that would get rid of the shelter and public restrooms. As for the predators and drug couriers, those people could easily be arrested if they commit a crime in the middle of Dallas CBD in broad daylight. I guess they will always operate covertly, but Greyhound could potentially call the police on them. I guess Greyhound doesn't take action for fear of creating a conflict with the vagrant community.

Seems very foolish to flush with recycled waste water. You're essentially not flushing anything at all. It all comes back and stuff gets stuck in the pipes. Plus, there's always going to be passengers throwing trash down the toilet.


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## jebr

I booked a few tickets for a couple of upcoming trips on Greyhound via will-call. A couple of questions about the will-call tickets:

1. Can I print out more than one copy of the ticket? For example, could I print out a ticket in advance from the kiosk at the Greyhound station where I live and if the ticket is lost, reprint the ticket either at that Greyhound location or the day of at the Greyhound station that I board at?

2. The Greyhound app and website states that will call tickets must be picked up at least one hour prior to departure. Is this strictly enforced, or can it be picked up 30 minutes or so prior to departure?

2a. If they have to be picked up at least an hour prior to departure, is there a way I can change a reservation from will-call to print-at-home? If it's that strict, I'd rather print at home.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You can't print out the ticket in advance if you use Will Call and I believe you have to print it out from the departure location together with your baggage tag if you are checking baggage. You can print it out 30 minutes before departure; the one hour is not strictly enforced.

Does anyone know if there's any scheduled H3-45s in California other than Marin Airporter? I haven't ridden one in a long time and want to know whether they are slow or prone to swaying due to their size.


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## rickycourtney

jebr said:


> I booked a few tickets for a couple of upcoming trips on Greyhound via will-call. A couple of questions about the will-call tickets:
> 
> 1. Can I print out more than one copy of the ticket? For example, could I print out a ticket in advance from the kiosk at the Greyhound station where I live and if the ticket is lost, reprint the ticket either at that Greyhound location or the day of at the Greyhound station that I board at?
> 
> 2. The Greyhound app and website states that will call tickets must be picked up at least one hour prior to departure. Is this strictly enforced, or can it be picked up 30 minutes or so prior to departure?
> 
> 2a. If they have to be picked up at least an hour prior to departure, is there a way I can change a reservation from will-call to print-at-home? If it's that strict, I'd rather print at home.


First off welcome to the stupidity that is Greyhound's ticketing system.
1) I've never had this issue, but I think once the ticket is printed (either by an agent or at a kiosk) it can't be reprinted. They have a way to reissue the ticket, but get ready to be the last one to board the bus and probably pay a fee.

2) It's not that strict, but lines at the ticket counters can be long (if you're at a location without a will-call kiosk) so it might be a good idea to arrive an hour before.

2a) Once you pick will call, you're stuck with will call.

These are all quirks that will hopefully be fixed when Greyhound ever gets around to rolling out digital tickets nationwide.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Michael Rose posted pictures of BoltBus Van Hool #0902 on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/TheMightyGreyhound?fref=ts.

Looks like they have cloth velour Van Hool Bodyline seats.

I still prefer the H3-45.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Michael Rose posted pictures of BoltBus Van Hool #0902 on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/TheMightyGreyhound?fref=ts.
> 
> Looks like they have cloth velour Van Hool Bodyline seats.
> 
> I still prefer the H3-45.


He must have the photos set to private, I can't see them.
If you had to pick between a Van Hool with Body Line seats, a X3-45 with Premier LS seats or a D4500 with Premier LS seats... which would you prefer to go on a ride on?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I uploaded the photos onto GTE so you can check for them over there.

As for your question, I'd like to clarify if you mean D4500 or D4505. Greyhound D4500s aren't equipped with Premier LS, so I assume you meant the D4505. In that case, I would choose the X3-45, followed by the Van Hool, followed by the D4505.

YARTS' D4500CTs have Premiers, but they are cloth velour and far less painful than the Greyhound vinyl Premiers. If that was what you meant, I might consider it.

I'd also like to ask: if you had to choose between a H3-45 or X3-45 with the same seats (let's say A2-TEN), which would you choose?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I uploaded the photos onto GTE so you can check for them over there.
> 
> As for your question, I'd like to clarify if you mean D4500 or D4505. Greyhound D4500s aren't equipped with Premier LS, so I assume you meant the D4505. In that case, I would choose the X3-45, followed by the Van Hool, followed by the D4505.
> 
> YARTS' D4500CTs have Premiers, but they are cloth velour and far less painful than the Greyhound vinyl Premiers. If that was what you meant, I might consider it.
> 
> I'd also like to ask: if you had to choose between a H3-45 or X3-45 with the same seats (let's say A2-TEN), which would you choose?


Yes. I meant a Greyhound (or BoltBus) D4505 with the leather Premier LS seating. 
I'm actually surprised that you went with the X3-45 over the Van Hool. Personally, I'd take the Body Line seats over the Premier, no matter the coach they're attached to.

Choosing between the H3-45 and the X3-45 is tough, both are great coaches.

All things being equal, I would go with the X3-45, simply because the ride quality is second to none. Yes it has some limitations, but if I'm gonna be stuck on a bus for 4 hours, I'd rather have a smooth ride.

That being said, I'd ride on one of Vonlane's luxury H3-45 coaches over a normal X3-45 any day. Also I think the H3-45 is a much better choice for that type of service than the X3-45.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The X3-45 has a smoother ride and better safety than the Van Hool. So, I'm just going to pad out the seat with a jacket and pillow, and it'll be tolerable, while I don't really had any way of mitigating the Van Hool's problems.

As for the D4505 with Premier, there's just no reason for me to choose it. Now, if we're talking about the Peter Pan D4505s running for BoltBus Northeast, I'd take that simply because it doesn't have Premiers and ain't a Van Hool.

Is the H3-45's ride noticeably worse than the X3-45? I haven't taken one since 2002 so I'd have to ride one again to know. Seems like that big tall bus would go quite slow.


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## rickycourtney

I honestly think safety worries with Van Hool coaches are way overblown.

Like any vehicle on the road, if there were major defects, they would be pulled off the road by government regulators. In the past they weren't built as durably as Prevost or MCI coaches, but I'm not sure if they're that bad anymore. I've been on several late model C2045 coaches (with Body Line seats) and found them to be good coaches. As you know, Van Hool isn't the only manufacturer with quality issues, MCI has been having them too.

On the Prevost coaches, I wouldn't say the ride quality is worse... that seems to imply it's bad. The H3's ride is comparable to, if not better than, the ride of MCI's J-series coaches. The X3 just has an exceptionally smooth ride.

In terms of speed, I'm not sure it's as big as an issue as you think, The H3 may potentially have a slower acceleration (taking longer to reach freeway speeds), but I doubt that means it would go slower (i.e. have a lower top speed).


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, of the X3-45, H3-45, J4500, and D4505, how would you rank their ride quality? I haven't ridden the redesigned J4500 with IFS, but the 2003 J4500 that I rode had a rougher ride than the D4505. And, of course, I'd put the X3-45 above the D4505. Not sure where the H3-45 would fit since I can't remember from 2002.

For that matter, I'd rank the 102DL3 above the D4500CT above the D4505, the G4500 about the same as the D4505, and the E4500 between the X3-45 and 102DL3. The older Van Hools I've ridden all rode rough. Van Hools also tend to have the worst headroom.

So it comes out to be X3-45, E4500, 102DL3, D4500CT, D4505 and G4500, J4500, Van Hools.


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## rickycourtney

I feel like my list would be:

X3-45

H3-45/J4500 (tie)

D4505/C2045/D4500CT (tie)

But it's all so subjective to personal experiences and maintenance. I've been on J4500's with awful rides (likely due to poor maintenance) and when I rode Amtrak California's C2045's they had silky smooth rides.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Railiner says the J4500 has a very poor driving experience in comparison to other MCIs and Prevosts. I think the H3-45 should have a better ride than the J4500 since it's Prevost's flagship luxury coach while the J4500 was designed as a "cheap E4500".

Another thing I'm trying to figure out is how Greyhound went downhill so fast in the 1980s. It appears that this was caused by the mismanagement of John Teets and Fred Currey. Greyhound seems to have carried much more affluent clientele and had much less suspicious passengers and loiterers before the 1980s.

Edit: I'm seeing a "Bus #561513" on the Houston-Dallas, as well as a "Bus #56144". No idea what these are.


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## rickycourtney

You have to look at external influences as well...

The airlines were deregulated in 1978. The legacy carriers cut ticket prices and quickly moved to a hub and spoke model. The move also quickly gave rise to low cost carriers.

Not many people are going to choose to spend 3 days on a bus when they can fly to their destination in a matter of hours, at a price that isn't significantly more. (Example: Greyhound SEA-LAX fares start at $61.50, while Alaska Airlines fares start at $98.10 and get you there 24 hours faster.)

That changed intercity bus travel and it's clientele, more than anything Greyhound did internally.


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## railiner

A few opinion's.....

The X3 is the best riding coach today, followed by the H3, then the DL3 and its derivatives, then the J45, and last, the Van Hools. The best ride of all time was the Eagle, especially on a really rough, potholed road, due to its IFS and exceptionally long 'travel' to absorb the bumps.

Agree with rickycourtney...maintenance can be a huge factor in ride...especially tires and their balance, as well as shocks, etc.

To me, the "decline" in GL was started when the company began large diversification, in the '60's, taking revenue from their core business, and putting it into more lucrative investments. Good for the stockholder's, but bad for the busline's employees and passenger's.

And then came deregulation and the end of the ICC. The resulting fierce competition for business by cut-rate carrier's resulted in cost-cutting measure's, end of 'cross-subsidizing' of secondary routes, and other negative impact. The taxpayer funded, government owned transit system's, who could pay their driver's much higher pay and benefits from the pockets of taxpayer's, and not just the farebox, resulted in the best qualified driver's going there for employment, rather than private carrier's.

And yes...the end of the CAB and airline deregulation resulted in companies like 'People Express' and other airlines taking much of the busline's traditional market share.

Even the resurgence of Amtrak, especially in California, also took a chunk of the market....


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## rickycourtney

The J4500 & H3-45 coaches I've traveled on in the last few years have all been older models and not particularity well maintained... which likely explains my difference in opinion.

I think Greyhound's move to diversify was a symptom, not the disease.

I think as far back as the 1960's the executives saw the writing on the wall that intercity bus travel was on the the decline and would never come back. Diversification was about finding profitable industries that could keep the company afloat.

In my opinion the future of bus travel isn't with long distance travel, it's with short trips, where it isn't economical to fly.

Greyhound needs to find a way to get people to get out of their cars and onto a bus. Millennials are open to the idea, but they generally won't step on a "Greyhound" brand bus (but they're okay with BoltBus).

The big question... how do you bring those customers in?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yet Greyhound Lines' most profitable year ever was, IIRC, 1976. I remember reading it in "The Greyhound Story". I guess that excludes the WWII years, but it was after diversification. That was the most profitable year for Greyhound's bus lines. Greyhound's timeline says their highest transportation revenues was in 1980. That's revenues, not profits or passenger-miles, though. I'm guessing the highest passenger-miles was during WWII.

So, Greyhound Lines was still strong in 1980. By 1990, Greyhound was bankrupt and in a shambles.

To me, it wasn't a gradual process that "killed" Greyhound, it was something big that happened in between 1980 and 1990. Sure, the seeds of trouble could have been sown with the introduction of jets on domestic routes and with Greyhound's diversification, but things started falling apart very quickly after 1980.

First, bus deregulation in 1981. Then, John Teets takes over in 1982. A big strike in 1983. Greyhound introduces the 102A3 in 1985, probably the most advanced bus available. But GLI gets sold to Currey in 1987, gets separated with MCI, and merges with Continental Trailways on a leveraged buyout. They stop buying the 102A3. Greyhound can't pay their debt, so they try to cut wages. This results in a huge strike in 1990. Violence, unrest, and bankruptcy follows.

Is there some way to resurrect successful long-distance bus lines, without resorting to sleeper buses, even if most of the passengers carried only travel shorter segments? I don't think Greyhound's transcontinental routes ever carried many transcontinental passengers.


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## rickycourtney

In my humble opinion, the future of bus travel is in segments that are under 4 hours in length. That seems to be the golden zone in which ground transportation is competitive with air travel.

Greyhound seems to fill a niche in terms of long distance travel... passengers who can't travel on airlines either because they book at the last minute and can't afford the fares, but for who time is no problem and passengers who can't (for legal or other reasons) subject to the scrutiny of airport security.

This is in opposition to Amtrak that has a niche market of passengers (myself included) who don't mind long travel times for the experience of riding the rails. Bus travel doesn't have the same romance attached to it.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Except Greyhound is still besieged by suspicious passengers and loiterers, regardless of the distance of travel. Perhaps if Greyhound cut their long-distance advance-purchase fares to be significantly lower than any competing mode of transport, while improving comfort, they could get some long-distance passengers back. But then again, they'd have to find a way to get rid of the loiterers, suspicious passengers, and poor reputation first.

I think Greyhound could have fought in the 1980s to turn themselves into a cheap and reasonably comfortable, albeit time-consuming, mode of transport for long-distance passengers. It wouldn't be romantic, but it could still be fun and it could be cheap enough to offset the added cost of food along the way. It would also go to many more places than Amtrak with many more frequencies.

Instead, Greyhound turned into the transport of last resort. It's no fun to sit in a D4505 with Painful Premier seats for any length of time.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But then again, they'd have to find a way to get rid of the loiterers, suspicious passengers, and poor reputation first.


To quote Hamlet... "ay, there's the rub."
To be honest, I don't think Greyhound wants to get rid of them entirely, or they would have.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hmm, you do have a good point. I can't understand why they would want trouble, but I see what you mean. The way I see it, you either get rid of them entirely or you don't get rid of them at all. Don't get rid of them, and you'll always have a bad reputation. Get rid of them, and you may lose your suspicious customers.

Anyways, I'm seeing some really weird bus numbers on BusTracker. There's a "Bus #108", a "Bus #******", and the aforementioned "Bus #561513" and #Bus #56144". Are they leasing buses or something?


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## railiner

More opinion....

Regarding Greyhounds downslide in the '80's.....Swadian touched on it by mentioning John Teets, and Fred Curry. Those were not "bus men" like most of the former management....

John Teets' claim to fame was when he was brought from Greyhound subsidiary the Prophet Company (industrial catering.....auto plants, schools, etc.) to improve Greyhound's terminal food services...he successfully replaced the former Post House restaurant chain with franchised fast food operations, like Hardee's and Burger King. That strong performance made him a star, that culminated with him becoming Greyhound Corporation CEO. Fred Curry was a finance man like many of the notorious corporate raider's of his era, that acquired and then ruined companies.

As for Greyhound passenger demographics....well, in the words of former Greyhound CEO Jim Kerrigan...."Greyhound is the 'bargain basement' of public transportation"....

So what you see is what you get, as a result.

I agree that there is very little market for transcontinental bus travel, other than some of what was mentioned. The cheap low cost air carrier's killed that business. Conversely, the TSA hassle helped regain some short haul business travel. I think the buses can also compete with some overnite travel up to five or six hundred miles for leisure traveler's. There used to be a lot more foreign student 'backpacker's on transcontinental trips, but the decimation of many routes severely hurt that tourist market.

How to bring customer's in?

Well to start off, Greyhound needs to totally change its current "corporate culture". I hate to say it, but some of its employees seem to be of the mindset of being in a government welfare 'make work' program. Like their job is an 'entitlement'. Unfortunately, their attitude and performance drag down the good employees to their level after a while. It seems to me a total "house cleaning" is in order.

Next....they need to improve the reliability of their service, That is the most important step to regain disgruntled passenger's. Once they achieve that, they can concentrate on the amenities they offer. And perhaps even advertise their service, as long as they can fulfill what they advertise....

Do that, and the business will grow. Then they can restore many of the gaps in their route map....

'


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think there was a small misunderstanding. I didn't mean transcontinental bus travel, but I was talking about transcontinental bus routes that would better serve passengers on "shorter segments". I think, even back in the "glory days", Greyhound rarely carried transcontinental passengers other than tourists, which would have made stopovers along the way.

Running a route as long as possible has the benefit of elimination transfers in an entire direction. But it also creates operational difficulties when delays arise. So I think the best solution would be to run both: long-distance Limiteds making very few stops supported by short-distance Locals making more stops. On high-density segments, short-distance Expresses would run under the current model. Greyhound's Limiteds seem to have worked well back in the day when they actually ran.

Even though Greyhound has always been a cheap way to go, Greyhound passengers used to dress properly and behave properly on the motorcoaches. In old pictures, I see they wore suits and ties rather than dirty T-shirts reeking of cigarette smoke. This is a big problem. Add on the loiterers, and it just gets worse.

John Teets should have stayed in the food business selling his chicken box lunches at value rates. I heard Jim Kerrigan wasn't a great manager either. Fred Currey seems like the bus equivalent of Frank Lorenzo. Lots of once-powerful airlines went bankrupt or downhill in the same years Greyhound was having trouble. I think Dunikoski and Nageotte would have managed Greyhound better than Teets/Kerrigan/Currey.

Greyhound does need to change its corporate culture, but I have no faith they would do so. They have so many problems with everything that they'd have to scrap their whole structure and start over. Everything has gone wrong, from the buses, to the drivers, to the seats, to the maintenance, to the stations, to the policies, to the clientele.


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## railiner

Have to agree with Swadian on those points. As far as dress goes, in Greyhound's defense, I can only say that passenger dress and decorum, is but a sympton of society in general...not just bus passenger's. At least there is no smoking on buses permitted, as there used to be.

About the only good I have seen from FirstGroup's stewardship of GLI is the purchasing of a lot of new buses. Unfortunately, they did not carefully select the seats they bought...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Unfortunately, I don't think Greyhound would be any better under Laidlaw ownership. Laidlaw simply cut huge numbers of routes and schedules. At least under Laidlaw, Greyhound didn't purchase painful seats. But then again, they didn't purchase any significant number of buses between 2003 and 2008, while constantly cutting routes.

I'm not sure exactly who owned Greyhound before Laidlaw, but I think it was Viad Corporation?

GLC seems to have done better than GLI in terms of service, but has not received any new buses and continues to cut routes. Then again, receiving new buses would be bad since they all have painful seats.


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## railiner

Greyhound Lines was divested from the Greyhound Corporation in 1987. It was purchased by Fred Currey and a group of investor's including Craig Lentzsch.

They sold the company to Laidlaw in 1998. Laidlaw was acquired by FirstGroup in 2007.

Laidlaw had purchased GLC from the former Greyhound Cop. (by then renamed Dial Corporation) in 1997.

So for the period from 1987 until 1998, GLI and GLC were separated by different owners.

Along with the big GL strike in that era, that was the reason that Gray Coach Lines (later acquired by GLC) went from pooling with GLI on the Toronto-Buffalo- New York route, instead to Trailways (Empire and Adirondack). When GL settled their strike, they went to new pool partner, Trentway-Wager for that route.

After rejoining of the two Greyhound carrier's under common ownership, GLC started pooling with GLI again on a few trips on that route, while continuing pooling mainly with Trailways. And GLI also pooled with Trentway at the same time. Really got confusing for passenger's. (Trailways and Trentway never pooled together).

That all ended when Trentway became part of Coach Canada and Megabus when purchased by the Stagecoach conglomerate. They split their ways with GLI, and then all GLI trips pooled with GLC, and Trentway trips with Coach USA or Megabus. At about the same time, GLI and Trailways of NY went into a pool operation. Recently, TNY and GLC ended their pooling, (can't go into that), and so all GLC trips are pooled with GLI. GLI and TNY continue pooling across NY State...

One interesting footnote, was that Gray Coach Lines was briefly owned by Stagecoach....they bought it from the TTC, and sold it to GLC....!..


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the info. I've never heard of Gray Coach Lines before. Can't understand why they switched from Trailways to Trentway-Wagar after GLI's strike ended in 1993. Fred Currey was booted around that time, though I don't know if he continued to own a stake in GLI. So GLI also pooled with Trentway? How come they were both pooling with Trentway?

Man, this sure is confusing. Maybe they would be better off not pooling and simply interlining with each other.

Does GLC equipment still go into the US much? Most of their buses don't have wheelchair lits.

I just read on GLC's website that Brewster used to be owned by GLC until they were split in 1996. Brewster runs "scheduled tours" in Western Canada, but they appear to have no more connections with GLC.

Meanwhile, Greyhound drivers say the company is a sinking ship. Morale is low and the drivers appear to have no hope or confidence in their company. I did find a video of operating a G4500 wheelchair lift, attached below.

Greyhound G4500 WCL operation.mp4


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## railiner

Check Gray Coach Lines history here....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Coach

Their main intercity routes were from Toronto to Buffalo, where they pooled with GL, and to North Bay and Sudbury were they pooled with GLC. Later on GLC went from Sudbury on to Toronto and Buffalo.

You're confusing the pooling between Toronto, Buffalo, and NYC......

Originally Gray Coach Lines and GLI, were the only carrier's on the route. When the big strike occurred, Gray Coach began pooling with Empire and Adirondack Trailways to reach NYC. When GLI's strike ended, Gray Coach continued pooling with Trailways. So GLI looked for a new way to get their passenger's to Toronto...They went to Trentway-Wager, which put together some of their existing routes to get from Buffalo to Toronto, and now Trentway and GLI offered competition to Gray Coach and Trailways on the Toronto-Buffalo-NYC route.

Later on, GLC acquired Gray Coach Lines, and they continued pooling with Trailways. And shortly after that, GLC and GLI were reunited under common (Laidlaw) ownership.

When that happened, GLC and GLI started pooling one trip together on the route, while the other trips continued the status quo, (GLI-Trentway, and GLC-Trailways).

So some GLI trips from NYC to Toronto went to GLC at Buffalo, and most others went to Trentway. And some GLC trips from Toronto to Buffalo went to GLI, but most to Trailways. Trailways and Trentway never pooled.

Later on, Trentway-Wager became part of the Coach Canada/Megabus operation when acquired by Stagecoach Holdings...

When that happened, they parted ways with GLI, and all GLI trips pooled with GLC, along with Trailways pooling with GLC. Trentway began pooling with Coach USA/Megabus to reach NYC. At about that time, GLI and Trailways began their pooling operation across NY State.....

Trailways and GLC no longer pool, but the GLI - Trailways pool continues....


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## railiner

It is very rare nowaday's to see a GLC bus in NYC except on a charter. Even on recent holiday weekends I didn't see any.

GLC did own Brewster for a number of years, When Laidlaw acquired GLC from the Dial Corporation, Brewster did not go with the sale, Dial's successor, Viad, own's Brewster


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## Caesar La Rock

I found out today that several MC-9s from the Greyhound Saudi operation were re-exported back to the US, then sold to Airocar Inc., who did business as Gray Line Tours of Broward in South Florida.

These same buses even operated around the Florida area, since Gray Line of Orlando was owned by Airocar Inc. (it was sold to Airocar in 1984). The MC-9s were built in August and September of 1981 and were numbered in the 4800 series.

They all used 8v71Ns with Allison HT-740 transmissions. A number of Saudi MC-5Cs were owned by American Sightseeing of Miami (who became American Bus Lines) and were retired in 1991.

They were all sold to Airocar Inc. the same year and operated for several years, before being retired under Coach USA, along with the Ex-Saudi MC-9s. American Bus Lines also owned some Ex-Greyhound Saudi MC-9s too.

Those MC-5Cs were 1979 models, which used 6v71Ns with Allison MT-644s. Some even had second doors, which must of been really unique to see on a motorcoach at that period of time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Viad still owns Brewster? They must make a lot of money off all the attractions and hotels they own in the Canadian Rockies. Too bad they no longer interline with Greyhound.

Didn't Ontario Northern take over the Toronto-North Bay route?

So it seems like various bus lines were making alliances with other bus lines to defeat their competitors. In the end, it appears that the alliances have separated into a Greyhound faction and a Coach USA/Coach Canada faction. Northern Express Bus in Alberta has made the apparently foolish decision to stop interlining with GLC. They stand alone and charge very high fares to offset low ridership.

I assume the lack of GLC equipment visiting the US is due to their lack of wheelchair lifts. East of GLC's network, Canada seems to have a very complicated bus system, with many operators including Orleans, Intercar, Maheux, etc.. I'm not sure why Greyhound employees consider their company to be a sinking ship. I asked them what was going on, but they would not say more other than implicate John Teets.

For CJ, here's a MC-5C interior shot: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14269354779.

And a MC-8 interior shot: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/14432780156.

It appears that the GLC MC-8s had different interior colors from the GLI MC-8s, AFAIK. I prefer the MC-8 and 102A3 over the MC-9; they simply have a more classic look and feel.


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## Caesar La Rock

Those MC-5Cs were really interesting coaches, along with the Saudi MC-9s. They had double roofs basically, since specially built A/C units were fitted to these buses to handle the heat of the Middle East.


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## rickycourtney

So does anyone know if these new Van Hool coaches BoltBus just purchased are for fleet expansion or is Greyhound using them to replace the oldest coaches?

I ask because it could be a good thing if BoltBus is finally expanding again.

Up here in the Pacific Northwest BoltBus recently added 30 new trips a week and plans to add more in the fall when Albany & Eugene get daily runs. All that service can apparently be covered with the current fleet of coaches.

I still think a Seattle-Spokane route would be success. BoltBus GM David Hall says they continue to look at it, but they currently don’t have the fleet to do it.

If the fleet is expanding on the east coast, it bodes well for a potential expansion in the Pacific Northwest in the not too distant future.


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## metrolinecoach111

rickycourtney said:


> So does anyone know if these new Van Hool coaches BoltBus just purchased are for fleet expansion or is Greyhound using them to replace the oldest coaches?
> 
> I ask because it could be a good thing if BoltBus is finally expanding again.
> 
> Up here in the Pacific Northwest BoltBus recently added 30 new trips a week and plans to add more in the fall when Albany & Eugene get daily runs. All that service can apparently be covered with the current fleet of coaches.
> 
> I still think a Seattle-Spokane route would be success. BoltBus GM David Hall says they continue to look at it, but they currently don’t have the fleet to do it.
> 
> If the fleet is expanding on the east coast, it bodes well for a potential expansion in the Pacific Northwest in the not too distant future.


Ricky,

These buses are not for any upcoming expansions. The service levels there will remain the same at least through the end of the year. They are needed in the Northeast and will stay there.

Bolt was given 3 refurbished Prevost H3's for the Pacific Northwest for POR-SEA-VAC. They are doing extremely well in the region. And yes, SEA-SPO is being considered.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Bolt was given a trio of refurbished H3-45s? Do you have the numbers? I haven't heard anything about this. I thought GLI only had 5 H3-45s, #6666-6670, and that only #6670 had been refurbished, and was running in Greyhound's blue livery. I assume that 3 of the other 4 have been refurbished and put into Bolt's service, or are these other H3-45s?

Also, what's with GLC D4505 #1331 and this all-back livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/19866904683/?


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Bolt was given a trio of refurbished H3-45s? Do you have the numbers? I haven't heard anything about this. I thought GLI only had 5 H3-45s, #6666-6670, and that only #6670 had been refurbished, and was running in Greyhound's blue livery. I assume that 3 of the other 4 have been refurbished and put into Bolt's service, or are these other H3-45s?
> 
> Also, what's with GLC D4505 #1331 and this all-back livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/19866904683/?


If memory serves me correct, Bolt has 68-70 in that list. I saw 69 arriving in Seattle.

To add to Ricky's observation from the Seattle Transit blog, the additional 30 schedules running in the PNW are operated Thursday-Monday. Two additional round trips between POR-SEA and one additional between SEA-VAC.

It's crazy to think a corridor outside the Northeast, California or Florida (all regional and airport-based services aside) can have demand that justifies this level of intercity frequency (9x on Fr/Su each way between POR-SEA). But yet, that's exactly what's happening.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think you forgot the Midwest and Texas, sir. I guess some corridors within Canada also count. I think it's really the cheap fares and fast schedules that are doing the job, even though the seats are uncomfortable on the X3-45s and D4505s.

I'll have to ask Jason Futch about the H3-45s. He's a Portland-based Greyhound driver and was featured on Greyhound's website, as well as running his own blog. Speaking of which, I highly recommended reading these:
http://bloggreyhound.com/driver-destinations-portland/
http://busdriveradventures.weebly.com/about.html.


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## rickycourtney

Seattle-Portland and Seattle-Vancouver are really goldilocks routes for bus travel. They're routes that take 3h 15m/4h to go downtown-to-downtown by bus, making it competitive with both Amtrak and Alaska's air shuttle routes. All 3 cities have public transportation to most parts of their respective regions within walking distance of the BoltBus stop. There's a large number of people traveling between the cities for both business and leisure. But perhaps most importantly, all 3 are "young" cities full of millennials who are open to taking a low-cost intercity bus.

I was wondering how BoltBus was going to add so many runs with the current fleet and I was wondering why some of the H3-45 coaches hadn't been repainted into the blue neoclassical livery. Now I have answers to both questions!

I really think a Seattle-Spokane route could be popular. On the negative side Spokane isn't as "young" of a city as Seattle and the trip is pushing the edges of comfort at 5 hours. But on the positive side, a lot of people in Seattle travel to Spokane for business or to see family, Spokane does have Gonzaga University, Amtrak service is unreliable and the Alaska air shuttle is expensive.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know about BoltBus, but I don't see many young people on Greyhound and I definitely see no college students. OTOH, I don't think 5 hours is on the edge of my comfort zone, as long as the bus doesn't have Painful Premiers. Greyhound does fine on Reno-San Francisco. It is only a short hop.

While the business strategy of BoltBus has been proven to be successful, I think bus lines are not aggressive enough and shy away from taking risks to try out other business models that could expand their profits. Every bus line is trying to fill the same few niches.


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## jebr

I can definitely do a bus ride for more than 5 hours, but unless it's an overnight ride (and the seats are comfortable enough to get a good night's sleep in,) there has to be a compelling reason to do so (cost, comfort, exceptional scenery, etc.) Even MSP - CHI is a tough bus market for business travelers if Spirit or other airlines are aggressively pricing. While the airlines are usually not as comfortable as a bus, I only have to be in the seat for a bit over an hour (and about 4 hours total time downtown-downtown,) where a bus requires eight hours in-seat.

I do think some markets (MSP - CHI, BOS - WAS, and other eight hour or so long journeys) could do well with a sleeper bus service, but even the average Greyhound isn't the best to sleep in. My significant other won't do a bus overnight unless it's at the end of the trip (or there is plenty of rest time after the bus portion of the trip.) However, a roomette is fine for her. A sleeper berth on a bus may hold appeal to people like that.

However, I would be very surprised if a trip longer than 10 hours or so would be done by someone who is able and can afford to fly to the destination, unless the air market between two points is very poor (however, that may be too small of a market for bus service to take hold as well) or they really want to take a bus for some other reason than simply to get to point B from point A (scenery, "busfanning", intensely against air travel, etc.)


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## Swadian Hardcore

As far as bus rides longer than 5 hours is concerned, I think, first and foremost, the bus needs to be comfortable and the seats needs to be comfortable. The bus shouldn't have flushing toilets, because those are prone to clogging, unless it's a Prevost (Prevost toilets have a flap). A smelly toilet will get its odor distributed throughout the bus. The wheelbase should be at least as long as a J4500. The seats should be comfortable; no American Seating and preferably no vinyl seating. I find cloth velour the most comfortable for longer rides.

Some more legroom wouldn't hurt either. Taking out two rows rather than one could bring bus legroom up to "Premium Economy" standards, at minimal increase to CASM. Overnight buses should make minimal stops. The reason people wake up with a headache on buses is generally because of either painful seating or poor scheduling. Human sleep comes in 90-minute "blocks", so overnight schedules should conform to that. Failure to do so will result in headaches in the morning. Obviously, a painful seat will also result in all kinds of pain.

Schedules should run as fast as possible. Making excessive stops, long stops, excessive smoke breaks, excessive refueling stops, and unnecessary detours are all bad ideas. Most stupid of all is making refueling stops in the middle of the night, forcing all passengers to get off. Again, ultra-long routes can actually work well; even though most passengers probably won't ride the whole distance, it eliminates connections along an entire corridor. There could be a few of these runs on every corridor, supplemented by shorter routes where needed.

Sleeper buses with sleeping berths would only be viable in high-density markets. Otherwise, I believe Premium Economy will be more successful. It would also have much higher fleet utilization because Premium Economy buses can run in the daytime. Good lumbar support and legroom can make up for the seat width.


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## rickycourtney

I think 5 hours on a bus is pushing it for many passengers for not only comfort concerns (it's a long time in a small, narrow seat), but you're also approaching a time point where it really isn't competitive with air travel. The SEA-GEG flight is 55 minutes, add in 30 minutes of travel to/from the airport on each end and an hour for security/pad time and you still arrive an hour sooner.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Buses don't have to beat planes on time. Overnight buses beat planes on time anyway. But that's not my point. Buses don't have to go head-to-head with planes. Creating bus customers is more important than grabbing plane customers. The focus should not be getting people out of the planes, but getting people into the buses.

The reason people hate Greyhound isn't because planes are better, but because Greyhound is worse.

Which brings me to some H3-45 interiors that I found online:
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1436554274_2015-05-05%2009.34.15.jpg
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1432145144_dscf0020.jpg
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1430216137_dsc00477.jpg
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1432143800_dscf0030.jpg
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1429192729_img_0311.jpg
https://www.prevostcar.com/sites/default/files/file/1423256179_image3.jpeg

All of these are vastly superior to Greyhound's X3-45 and D4505 interiors, as well as Megabus' TD925 interior. Yet their CASM isn't necessarily higher. Which interior is your favorite?


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Buses don't have to beat planes on time. Overnight buses beat planes on time anyway. But that's not my point. Buses don't have to go head-to-head with planes. Creating bus customers is more important than grabbing plane customers. The focus should not be getting people out of the planes, but getting people into the buses.


Swad, respectfully, I totally disagree.

There's no way I would ever take a bus between Seattle and Los Angeles. Heck, I probably wouldn't take a bus between Los Angeles and San Francisco, unless it was my only option and I had to get there.

I just can't conceive a reason why I would want to sit on the bus for over 24 hours when a plane can have me there in just a few hours.

I might consider an overnight route between San Francisco and Los Angeles if I felt it was extremely safe (I wouldn't want to fall asleep on a bus full of sketchy passengers) and didn't involve a ridiculously late departure or ridiculously early/late arrival. That being said I don't think any company is seriously considering an overnight bus service in this country. The problem is you have a lot of specialized buses sitting idle for the other 16 hours a day.

On the other hand, if I'm taking a trip between Seattle and Portland or Seattle and Vancouver, a bus is a very viable option. In fact it's my second choice behind taking a train and I often go with the bus it since it's usually much cheaper.

The difference between the trip types is that on the shorter trips, total door-to-door travel times are comparable. The biggest competition in those markets is the private automobile. That's why it's vitally important that the bus stop in a central area that has excellent connections to local transit.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not asking you to take a bus between Seattle and Los Angeles. All I'm saying is that "the planes killed Greyhound" is an overly simplified explanation for what happened to Greyhound in the 1980s. It does provide a good excuse for the failures of Greyhound management. Like I've said before, I doubt Greyhound's long-distance routes ever carried many passengers that rode end-to-end. I doubt the Los Angeles-Vancouver, in 1964 (Greyhound's 50th Anniversary), would have carried much passengers that went all the way. Before about 1960, it was trains that carried most of those passengers. Then the planes took over.

In this case, I'm throwing time and distance out the window. Talking about time and distance will invariably lead to the excuse that planes killed Greyhound. Let's just compare Greyhound in 1964 to Greyhound in 1990. In 1964, Greyhound was proudly celebrating its 50th Anniversary and touting "A MILLION MILES A DAY" in a brochure. By 1990, Greyhound was bankrupt and calling itself "the bargain basement of transportation". Greyhound went from being arguably the biggest and best bus line in the world to a bargain basement POS. Planes certainly could have taken away Greyhound's longest-distance customers. Yet there wasn't many of them in the first place.

What happened? Well, IMHO, Greyhound lost its pride and diligence. Its buses got less and less comfortable, a trend that continues today with the D4505s and Painful Premiers, a far cry from the Scenicruisers. Its management worried more about their own interests than the interests of the company. The employees got increasingly disgruntled and demoralized. Service got bad fast. Maintenance got deferred. Management, following their "bargain basement" principle, allowed suspicious passengers and loiterers to move in. Respect was lost. A friendly driver told me he gets in fights with unfriendly drivers, who says he's too nice to his passengers. Greyhound's reputation went into the sewers.

My point is that as long as we're talking about planes, we're making excuses for Greyhound. I don't want to be an apologist. Now that Greyhound is bargain basement, it's very difficult to climb back up. Lots of people hate Greyhound. But, since I dug up some interiors, I'd like to discuss them and see what we passengers like and don't like in the buses themselves. After all, we both agree that Shiny Blue Dungeons really suck.


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## rickycourtney

My point is that if you want to "create bus passengers," you need to focus on serving short corridors really well. That's where the growth potential is.

While having long distance routes from Los Angeles to Vancouver is neat and improves the experience of the passengers who are traveling long distances, they kill reliability on short segments. All it takes is one delay in say, Redding to mess up a trip for a Portland to Seattle passenger who is boarding several hours later. This is in my opinion one of the biggest problems Amtrak is faced with.

If you insist on changing the conversation... I like the 3rd interior design the most. Personally I don't understand why motorcoach builders use such busy fabric patterns. The 1st and 5th look like the carpet of a Vegas casino. It's nauseating.

While I don't like Greyhound's choice of seats, I do like their interior design. The combination of the black leather seats, the grey solid ceiling/walls, the dark vinyl floors and the dark color rear bulkhead is a sharp look.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, Greyhound isn't going to serve anything well when they have smelly buses, painful seats, suspicious passengers, disgruntled employees, and hoards of loiterers. The biggest problem for me is the smelly interior and painful seats. I can ignore the other passengers. I can deal with a grumpy driver. I can evade loiterers, even though they ruin Greyhound's image. But when I have to sit in a D4505, reeking of urine, for the entire length of my trip (no matter what the time or distance), while suffering terrible pain from the Painful Premier, there's not much I can do. Even padding out the seat with pillows won't solve the problem since I wouldn't be able to use the armrest (those are too low).

That's why I am always looking for more comfortable bus interiors.

As far as distance goes, I think Greyhound can run both long-distance and short-distance routes.

But anyway, it's ironic that you say the 1st and 5th interiors are like Vegas casinos, because the 3rd interior is actually from LuxBus America. Anyway, my favorites are the 3rd and 6th interiors. I respectfully disagree about Greyhound's interior colors, because I think a white or blue headliner is better than a grey one, and I really don't like the black fabric walls or vinyl seat covers. I really don't like the use of black in a bus. My favorite is the blue & white combo used by GLC: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg.


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## railiner

I like the third the best, also....mostly for the winged type headrests, but also for the color scheme. I dislike a carpeted ceiling, as it does not reflect enough indirect lighting, as a white ceiling does. I also dislike the trendy fake wood floors...much prefer a dark 'marble' look.

There are psychological advantages of the 'cool colors', as opposed to 'warm colors'....they supposedly 'calm' people rather than 'excite' them....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Admittedly, I just stumbled onto those pictures and felt the need to post them before I forgot. But, of course, the issues of bus interiors have constantly been on my head after getting tortured on Greyhound's D4505s for a total of 40 hours during the Texas trip.

Agreed about the headliner. I think blue is OK if you want a carpeted headliner, but I see how it would make the interior feel darker. Could be OK at night, though. Red headliners are too "hot" and gray headliners darken the interior. That's why I don't like the use of black or grey in an interior.

Though, I guess grey is OK when used in conjunction with green, as in Peter Pan's DL3s:
http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Peterpan_MCI_DL3-Interior.jpg
http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Peterpan_MCI_DL3-Interiorc.jpg
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpf1/t51.2885-15/e15/10852727_684861658301388_931215971_n.jpg. 

Don't like the vinyl, though. I now find it less comfortable than cloth velour.

Too bad LuxBus America is selling that H3-45. Their current H3-45s do not have "VIP" seats anymore. I think their newest H3-45s have the same interior as Adirondack's 2014 H3-45s. They also have some with winged A2-TENs.


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## Caesar La Rock

Greyhound did some contracted bus service for some transit systems before the strike and bankruptcy. I know Samtrans in California, Greyhound operated Flyer D901s, AM General Metropolitans, Neoplan AN460s, New Flyer D60s, and a number of 1984 Gillig Phantoms prior to 1990.

In Miami, MDT leased 40 of it's 1980 GMC RTS buses to Greyhound, who contracted out some routes in 1989. It was a competition sort of to see who could operate the service better.

Greyhound was also given three 1979 35ft. GMC RTS with 8v71s. Needless to say, the service lasted only a year and when Miami got the buses back, they were trashed. The buses from Miami and Samtrans were operated by Greyhound drivers.


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## railiner

THE CJ said:


> Greyhound did some contracted bus service for some transit systems before the strike and bankruptcy. I know Samtrans in California, Greyhound operated Flyer D901s, AM General Metropolitans, Neoplan AN460s, New Flyer D60s, and a number of 1984 Gillig Phantoms prior to 1990.
> 
> In Miami, MDT leased 40 of it's 1980 GMC RTS buses to Greyhound, who contracted out some routes in 1989. It was a competition sort of to see who could operate the service better.
> 
> Greyhound was also given three 1979 35ft. GMC RTS with 8v71s. Needless to say, the service lasted only a year and when Miami got the buses back, they were trashed. The buses from Miami and Samtrans were operated by Greyhound drivers.


Besides SamTrans on the Peninsula routes, Greyhound also operated Golden Gate Transit to Marin County for a while. Both of those were former Greyhound operations before the government authorities took over their operation...Greyhound had a third commuter division as well....from the Transbay Terminal to Contra Costa County. Those routes went to AC Transit. After unloading all of the commuter divisions, Greyhound mainline division still served those areas on long distance routes. There are still a few traces today in GL's route system.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I remember reading that Trautman had to fight with the government to get permission to drop those SF commuter services. They apparently were big money losers due to poor fleet utilization.

Greyhound still goes to Hayward, San Rafael, and Santa Rosa, but everything else is gone. The San Francisco Maintenance Center is also gone.

It's still D4505 Domination here in Reno, but at least Greyhound is offering $3.50 to San Francisco.

BTW, railiner, I sent you a PM.


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## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhound did some contracted bus service for some transit systems before the strike and bankruptcy. I know Samtrans in California, Greyhound operated Flyer D901s, AM General Metropolitans, Neoplan AN460s, New Flyer D60s, and a number of 1984 Gillig Phantoms prior to 1990.
> 
> In Miami, MDT leased 40 of it's 1980 GMC RTS buses to Greyhound, who contracted out some routes in 1989. It was a competition sort of to see who could operate the service better.
> 
> Greyhound was also given three 1979 35ft. GMC RTS with 8v71s. Needless to say, the service lasted only a year and when Miami got the buses back, they were trashed. The buses from Miami and Samtrans were operated by Greyhound drivers.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides SamTrans on the Peninsula routes, Greyhound also operated Golden Gate Transit to Marin County for a while. Both of those were former Greyhound operations before the government authorities took over their operation...Greyhound had a third commuter division as well....from the Transbay Terminal to Contra Costa County. Those routes went to AC Transit. After unloading all of the commuter divisions, Greyhound mainline division still served those areas on long distance routes. There are still a few traces today in GL's route system.....
Click to expand...

It's really cool how much Greyhound use to have back then. Nowadays, it's the shell of it's former self and trying to survive in the ever changing intercity bus market.


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## railiner

Greyhound ran commuter operations in many other cities across the country....in some places, just a tripper or two on portions of mainline routes....in other places quite an extensive operation akin to San Francisco's....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I heard New Orleans was one of them. Los Angeles and Miami, too. I'm guessing Omaha had less. Chicago and New York City must have had tons of commuter service, though. I wish Greyhound was still more powerful than New Jersey Transit.

San Francisco apparently had a huge network that extended to Monterey, Stockton, Sacramento, Calistoga, and Santa Rosa.

How was Greyhound's commuter service in Philadelphia?


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound still operates its QuickLink commuter service routes.

A Mt. Laurel, NJ – New York, NY route has operated for a number of years now, a Baton Rouge, LA – New Orleans route was added earlier this year and the website promises that a Wilmington, DE route is coming soon.

QuickLink routes were formerly operated from Sacramento, CA – San Francisco Bay Area and Macon, GA to Atlanta.


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## railiner

Greyhound was not a major player in New York City for commuter's, like they were (are) for mainline services The Mt. Laurel service Greyhound now operates was inherited from the purchase of Continental Trailways. That service was started by the old Quaker City Bus Company, when the New Jersey Turnpike opened in the early 1950's. At first they ran limited's from Philly, that picked up at Camden, Pennsauken, and Maple Shade before entering the Turnpike at Exit 4. Later on Safeway Trails acquired Quaker City. When the Cherry Hill Mall opened in the early 60's, they added a stop there. Then they relocated their stop at Maple Shade (The Circle Diner), to a new 4 bay terminal built on Holiday Inn property at what was at first called Moorestown, later changed to Mt. Laurel. It features a large park and ride lot, very close to Exit 4.

New Orleans did have Greyhound commuter service on several routes.

Los Angeles is sort of a gray (pardon the pun) area.... Greyhound did run a very extensive local route network around LA, but it was not necessarily geared for commuter's, but rather intercity traveler's. They had a lot of traffic restrictions on their local's to protect the interests of the Pacific Electric System, which ran interurban cars and some buses. Greyhound did have some commuter service out of San Diego to the border at San Ysidro.

Greyhound's only real commuter service on the Northeast Corridor originally, was based in Washington, and Baltimore.

I don't know very much about this relatively recent QuickLink routes.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Were there any other large commuter networks back in the day, such as in and around Chicago?

The QuickLink routes were apparently failures and many of them have been discontinued. Greyhound Canada's QuickLink service has failed to compete against transit agencies and GLC is campaigning to get permission to drop those routes. GLC also wishes to cut local stops and return to profitability.

Speaking of which, here's GLC #1147 pulling a new blue trailer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17979484342/sizes/o/.

I'm not sure why the photo looks awkward and appears to be too bright, or perhaps has too much sharpness and contrast.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hey guys, I just came back from a trip out to Ohio to visit my girlfriend. I passed and was passed by nothing but x3-45s all the way across the pa pike and i70


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## railiner

Nothing on the scale of San Francisco....

Ironically, the long time corporate home of Greyhound......Chicago....never had Greyhound commuter service, but did have excellent mainline service in all directions.

As mentioned, many cities across the country had one or two commuter runs.....which I would define as short trips that went into a major city early enough for most day jobs, and returned after work, and only ran weekdays, except holiday's. In addition, some 'mainline' runs ran close enough to those hours that they could conceivably be used for commutation, except for their long distance reliability and capacity limitations.

Probably some of the largest commuter operations outside California, were Cleveland, Buffalo, Charleston, W.Va.,...would have to spend a lot of time poring over old TT's to see....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Charleston? How did that small town have such a large commuter network?

Didn't realize there were so many X3-45s on I-70. BusTracker shows some DL3s and Blue G's running it too. Only on the runs that continue west of Pittsburgh, though. Where in Ohio were you going, Joe?


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## mightyjoe1201

I was out in a town called Cambridge. Its about 75 miles east of Columbus. Both Thursday night when I drove out there and yesterday coming home the only greyhounds I saw were x3s


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, Cambridge! I remember seeing that town on the Rand McNally Road Atlas. Cambridge, Zanesville, Columbus. You could have taken US 22 instead of I-70. I would have taken 22. Tend to prefer the US Highways myself. Did Greyhound ever run US 22 from New York City all the way to Cincinnati?

You know US Route 50? That one's my favorite.

I hope you enjoyed your trip.


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## mightyjoe1201

I would have taken 22 but it's quicker to run the interstate. I wanted to have as short of a drive both ways as possible.

Yeah, we both enjoyed it. I can't wait to make the trip to see her again.

I don't know if they ever did run 22. Its possible I guess. Hopefully someone else cab answer that.

I've been on 50. Its fine for a scenic drive but sucks for making time. Too many curves. Lol.

I'll keep u guys posted whenever I make the trip at least to what type of equipment is running. Can't b sure I'll always get bus numbers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

50 is great in Nevada. It's the "Loneliest Road in America" as is a fast dash across the desert. Speed limit is 70 mph, but of course no one really cares if you go faster, and the road can certainly take it.

Another one I like is US 40 between Salt Lake City and Denver.

I was looking through bus seat models again and found that National's flagship 4210SB10 product lacks center armsrests and thus has 19" seat width. I remember from a previous inquiry that the recline can be increased to 8'. Its main competitors, the FAINSA/Amaya VIPs and Kiel Avance 1010/1020, both have a center armrest option and so have narrower seats.

Would you prefer a wider seat with no center armrest or a narrower seat with a center armrest?


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah, 50 out in Nevada is a great road to drive. Wish it was better out east here, especially in w.v. I've driven quite a few of the u.s. routes. My favorite was probably u.s. 1 up in main.

As for bus seats, it's a catch 22 for me. I like harbingers arm rest to put my arm on but would also like the wider seats given my size. It also depends on if I have to sit with someone too. I'm not fond of sitting next to strangers so there I want the dark rest between us.


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## mightyjoe1201

Oh, I looked into taking greyhound to go visit my girlfriend at times but the timetables don't give me much time to spend with her. It would take me close to 12 or more hours to get there compared to 6 hours of driving.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I understand. Probably shouldn't take Greyhound anyway due to the sagging Painful Premiers that you will find on the X3-45s. Very painful indeed.

Don't know whether I'd prefer having a center armrest or not. I'm a thin guy, but I still like putting my forearm on it. OTOH, a wider seat might help sleeping. So, at night, I'd take the National, while by day, I'd probably prefer Amaya or Kiel. Still, it's a tough choice. What if I have a suspicious seatmate?

Here's a picture I snapped of GLI DL3 #6925's driver position; this is the one that bottomed out and is equipped with a ZF AsTronic 12-speed: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/20506878540/.

Alex R. blocked me on Flickr but I can still view his photos, so here's one of an old MC-6 in GLC service:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2419599277/sizes/l.

Then we have some DL3s pulling trailers:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2160943572/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9219050752/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2354812926/sizes/l.

And some more GLC ones:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9302294425/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/18486458398/sizes/l.

Does anyone know why GLC has the two extra yellow turn signals on the nose? Those aren't on the GLI-spec units. Isn't it very difficult to drive a DL3 pulling a trailer?


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Charleston? How did that small town have such a large commuter network?


Charleston, West Virginia is the state capital, and was a large hub for the former Atlantic Greyhound Corporation. Besides commuter runs to the city, they had a whole bunch of commuter runs to various coal mines in the region.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> I was out in a town called Cambridge. Its about 75 miles east of Columbus. Both Thursday night when I drove out there and yesterday coming home the only greyhounds I saw were x3s





Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ah, Cambridge! I remember seeing that town on the Rand McNally Road Atlas. Cambridge, Zanesville, Columbus. You could have taken US 22 instead of I-70. I would have taken 22. Tend to prefer the US Highways myself. Did Greyhound ever run US 22 from New York City all the way to Cincinnati?
> 
> You know US Route 50? That one's my favorite.
> 
> I hope you enjoyed your trip.


Cambridge, Ohio is at the junction of Interstates 70 and 77. Greyhound built one of their last highway Post House restaurants to serve the NYC-Pittsburgh-Columbus-St.Louis thru route, and the Cleveland-Parkersburg-Winston-Salem route that crossed there.

Greyhound did run the full length of US 22, (also known in Pennsylvania as the William Penn Highway). When the Pennsylvania Turnpike opened, they diverted most thru schedules onto it, but still maintained some local service on Route 22 and US-30.. Later on more new highways on either end of the Turnpike diverted traffic away from 22. Greyhound ran two local routes between Pittsburgh and Columbus.....US 22 via Steubenville, and Dennison; and US-40 via Wheeling and Cambridge. until I-70 superceded US-40..


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## Swadian Hardcore

I had to go look up this again: http://www.chicagorailfan.com/greyhrwv.html.\

What's Overland Commuter Service, James River, and Bristol Jenkins?

Atlantic Greyhound...wasn't that Arthur Hill's company?

Edit: Thanks for the info. Did Greyhound run on US 22 between Zanesville and Cincinnati, bypassing Columbus? How about US 40 bypassing Pittsburgh?


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## mightyjoe1201

railiner, do u know if the post house restaurant is still in Cambridge? Cause if it is I want to take my girlfriend to see it and maybe get something there.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Don't know whether I'd prefer having a center armrest or not. I'm a thin guy, but I still like putting my forearm on it. OTOH, a wider seat might help sleeping.
> 
> Does anyone know why GLC has the two extra yellow turn signals on the nose? Those aren't on the GLI-spec units. Isn't it very difficult to drive a DL3 pulling a trailer?


I prefer having the center armrest. I fit the seat fine, and like the separation from my seatmate if I have one. And the seat overall is still the same width, isn't it? You just lose a bit of space where the armrest swings down....

I too was curious about the GLC extra front flasher's....I thought that perhaps it was a requirement of some province that GLC operates in, but don't really know...

I thought that I have seen similar on MTA DL's, or if not the same, some other additional lights that the MTA specs in to their orders...


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> railiner, do u know if the post house restaurant is still in Cambridge? Cause if it is I want to take my girlfriend to see it and maybe get something there.


I don't think so...the current agency stop is a Marathon gas station. I believe the Post House was torn down, and the nearby Pilot Truck Stop was built on its site...


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I had to go look up this again: http://www.chicagorailfan.com/greyhrwv.html.\
> 
> What's Overland Commuter Service, James River, and Bristol Jenkins?
> 
> Atlantic Greyhound...wasn't that Arthur Hill's company?
> 
> Edit: Thanks for the info. Did Greyhound run on US 22 between Zanesville and Cincinnati, bypassing Columbus? How about US 40 bypassing Pittsburgh?


The link didn't work....

Yes, Arthur Hill was CEO of Atlantic Greyhound.

I guess I should look at maps, before I answer questions.....now I see that the local that ran from Pittsburgh to Columbus left 22 at Cadiz, and followed US-36 to Coshocton, thence Ohio 16 to Newark and Columbus....

Apparently, there was no coverage of US 22 from Zanesville direct to Cincinnati, unless there was way, way back...

As for bypassing Pittsburgh on US-40, The locals from Baltimore followed US-40 all the way to Uniontown, Pa., then PA-51 into Pittsburgh. Leaving Pittsburgh on US 19 to Washington, Pa, and resuming US-40 on to Wheeling and points west. So there was a gap from Uniontown to Washington on US-40.

Later on there was a sort of bypass of Pittsburgh to the south when they started running a daily trip from Baltimore or Washington via I-68 to Morgantown, WVa.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Here's the Pilot Travel Center in Cambridge: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9971475,-81.5780409,3a,75y,172.89h,83.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4PdK3hFkAnms6mhYZhu-lg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1.

Does that look like the former location of the Post House? It's at I-70 Exit 178 and is detached from US 22/40.

I wish Greyhound still ran Post Houses. I'm sure the food is much better than the gas station food we get these day when Greyhound takes meal stops. They rarely even stop at McDonald's anymore. Arby's is OK if you get the Grand Turkey Club and Curly Fries. Looks like Greyhound did have a lot of curvy routes back then.

I also fit the seat fine but it seems like National Seating does not offer center armrests and has slightly wider individual seats, though the overall width for the pair is still 40". Nationals' cushions appear to be wider and meet in the middle rather than leaving a gap for the armrest to fold up into.

Oh, and NYCT's DL3s don't have the extra lights: https://www.flickr.com/photos/transitalk/7155928748/sizes/l.


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## rickycourtney

I much prefer having a center armrest as it provides a rigid separator between you and the person sitting next to you.

Most bus seat armrests aren't that wide, maybe an inch. I'd much rather lose a little space for some separation.

The only exception is when I travel with my wife. In that case we usually put the armrest up if possible.


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## railiner

Swadian, I guess that you never had the 'pleasure' to dine at a Post House restaurant or cafeteria.... 

Today's 'GFM' operations in major terminal's is like a throwback to that era. The only customer's they attract are those long-haul bus passenger's that are too timid to venture out of the terminal in a strange city, in search of a decent place to eat.

As I've previously told the story, John Teets changed all that, when he was brought from Greyhound Corporation's Prophet Company subsidiary (industrial catering), and he replaced a few of them with fast food franchises, like Hardee's and Burger King. The result was very successful, and they extended the program to all of the former Post Houses. Now for the first time, customer's 'off-the-street', or from nearby office buildings actually came into the terminal's for lunch. Teet's became a star, and eventually became corporate CEO, succeeding Gerald Trautman.

I believe the best Post Houses were the ones out on the highway's, away from the city terminal's, including my all-time favorite Breezewood, Pa....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15013431874/in/album-72157647622207805/lightbox/

Now there was one really good restaurant that the Post House chain operated....it was not run as a typical Post House, but rather an entirely separate operation....

It was called "Top of the Towers", and was located atop the then new Gateway Towers office complex near The Point in Pittsburgh's 'Golden Triangle', offering spectacular views and truly fine dining....they just tried it to see if they might get into that line of business, but it was a 'one-off' unique operation that never expanded. Today, that location is a l condominium that the office building was converted into....http://www.amazon.com/Towers-Restaurant-Gateway-Pittsburgh-postcard/dp/B00LNH85NS

http://gatewaytowerspittsburgh.com/


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## railiner

Another of my favorite highway rest stop's was not part of the Post House chain, but was modeled exactly like them....http://www.angelfire.com/al4/buscatal/photo/841.jpg

This one was located at "State Road", Delaware (New Castle), a few miles south of Wilmington. It was a very busy northeast corridor rest stop at the junction of several bus routes. Greyhound used one side, and Trailways the other. Carolina Trailways even had a small extra board based there, along with a dispatcher and a small garage facility. On New York to Norfolk pool trips down the Delmarva peninsula, Safeway and Carolina drivers changed there.


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## Chaz

You brought back memories when talking about Breezewood & The State Road bus plazas. I vaguely. recall that 1 reason the State Rd biz hung on long after frequent rest stops were thought necessary: I was told Clementes (the State Road people) had an agreement stipulating how many buses would stop there. In the 70's some runs went out of their way to stop there. Trailways' dispatch center may have been a reason too. The place was badly in need of a refresh & the cafeteria food line could have used the Harvey House touch!

Some Stuckey's were used as rest stops and I thought Greyhound or t or 1 of their related companies bought them. I found no reference to that but like Greyhound Stuckey's was bought out (by the Pet Milk Co) and run into the ground for Wall Street until a member of the Stuckey's family bought it back. I used to look forward to a Stuckey's rest stop to gawk at things like their Pecan Roll that this norrthern boy had never seen before,
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/66-stuckeys.html

www.Stuckeys.com


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## mightyjoe1201

You guys mentioned that the post house stop in Cambridge, oh was where the pilot travel center is now. That sucks because that pilot is not very good and not very big. I always hated that place when I drove truck. Greyhound should never have gotten rid of the place. That's a place if you are ever traveling I would tell you to avoid.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Indeed, I have never eaten at a Post House. They were gone before I was born. Same goes for the Scenicruisers. What kind of food did the Post Houses serve? I've found vintage menus online, but a lot of the scans are really small and I'm interested in the quality, quantity, and taste of the food.

Are there any Eagles still in service? I'd love to ride one. Really wish some bus manufacturers today would use Torsilastic suspensions. A modern Scenicruiser with Torsilastic would blow away the competition.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Post House: Food was of School Cafeteria/Greasy Spoon Quality but prices were cheap and it was better than most of the fast food joints you see along the highways now!

Scenic Cruiser: a nice ride for a Bus and if you got a seat up top, pretty good views!


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## Chaz

A long blog post remembering the huge State Rd De. Greyhound/Trailway rest stop (Clementes)

https://erictb.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/forgotten-milepost-clementes-travel-center/

"“*WHERE THE NATION MEETS AND EATS*“.

Forgotten Milepost: Clemente’s Travel Center

A forum thread has comments

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/29651-forgotten-transportation-hub-clemente-travel-center/

[SIZE=16.25px]A big part of their biz of course was charters.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16.25px]Thanks to Railliner at AU I had a great morning surfing for Clementes (& Stuckey's--see below)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16.25px]A Canadian remembers his high school class's 50 day (!) charter around the U.S. in 1973 (posted in 2010)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16.25px]"[/SIZE]

How Travel Has Changed Since1973 (When I First Started Traveling)

http://saulcarliner.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-travel-has-changed-since1973-when-i.html

...*McDonald’s, Starbucks, and Dunkin Donuts have replaced Stuckeys as the roadside stop*. For those who aren’t familiar with it, Stuckey’s is a chain of roadside convenience stores with gas stations and limited counter service. Their advertised specialty was pralines, but I liked their sesame chips. When I took that first road trip in 1973, it seemed like we could find a Stuckey’s at every exit. I hardly every see them; I ran across one on the Florida panhandle a couple of years ago.

*Starbucks, Nathans, and Roy Rogers have replaced Howard Johnsons as the rest stop restaurant*. On the east coast, Howard Johnson’s was the leading family restaurant, and the restaurant at nearly every rest stop on every state turnpike. They had clean wash rooms, acceptable food, and great salt water taffy. By the mid-1980s, Roy Rogers replaced many of the Howard Johnson’s at rest stops. More recently, Starbucks and a resurgent Nathan’s have taken up shop at these rest stops.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now, there's a bit of a contradiction. I remember school cafeteria food being worse than fast food today. I know McDonald's gets a bad name, but it isn't that bad.

You know, the other good thing about reviving the Scenicruiser is that it won't get ruined by NJT and other commuter agencies. Just make sure it isn't powered by a fuel-guzzling Cummins. Definitely no American Seating or flushing toilet, either. Basically, make it the exact opposite of the D4505.


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## railiner

Chaz said:


> You brought back memories when talking about Breezewood & The State Road bus plazas. I vaguely. recall that 1 reason the State Rd biz hung on long after frequent rest stops were thought necessary: I was told Clementes (the State Road people) had an agreement stipulating how many buses would stop there. In the 70's some runs went out of their way to stop there. Trailways' dispatch center may have been a reason too. The place was badly in need of a refresh & the cafeteria food line could have used the Harvey House touch!
> 
> Some Stuckey's were used as rest stops and I thought Greyhound or t or 1 of their related companies bought them. I found no reference to that but like Greyhound Stuckey's was bought out (by the Pet Milk Co) and run into the ground for Wall Street until a member of the Stuckey's family bought it back. I used to look forward to a Stuckey's rest stop to gawk at things like their Pecan Roll that this norrthern boy had never seen before,
> 
> http://www.legendsofamerica.com/66-stuckeys.html
> 
> www.Stuckeys.com


I remember the Stuckey's chain on family motortrips to Florida in the early '60's.... Along with the Holiday Inn 'greatsign', a welcome sight.

Greyhound Corporation owned a sort of competitor of Stuckey's called 'Horne's'....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_(restaurant)


----------



## railiner

jimhudson said:


> Post House: Food was of School Cafeteria/Greasy Spoon Quality but prices were cheap and it was better than most of the fast food joints you see along the highways now!





Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now, there's a bit of a contradiction. I remember school cafeteria food being worse than fast food today. I know McDonald's gets a bad name, but it isn't that bad.


Post House food was similar to school cafeteria type food and menu. Not as tasty as most fast foods, but probably healthier and more nutritious.

*

I picked up a collectible Post House plate at the recent Spring Fling at the Museum of Bus Transportation. A very nice example, backstamped with the Syracuse China logo..

similar to this....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Syracuse-China-9-dinner-plate-Greyhound-Post-House-c-1958-/171849482435?nma=true&si=s4uT8KiSQM1lJy8v1jr7lmojj%252Fk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

At least they used real china and stainless rather than paper and plastic....


----------



## railiner

Chaz said:


> A long blog post remembering the huge State Rd De. Greyhound/Trailway rest stop (Clementes)
> 
> https://erictb.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/forgotten-milepost-clementes-travel-center/
> 
> "“*WHERE THE NATION MEETS AND EATS*“.
> 
> Forgotten Milepost: Clemente’s Travel Center
> 
> A forum thread has comments
> 
> http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/29651-forgotten-transportation-hub-clemente-travel-center/
> 
> [SIZE=16.25px]A big part of their biz of course was charters.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=16.25px]Thanks to Railliner at AU I had a great morning surfing for Clementes (& Stuckey's--see below)[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=16.25px]A Canadian remembers his high school class's 50 day (!) charter around the U.S. in 1973 (posted in 2010)[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=16.25px]"[/SIZE]
> 
> How Travel Has Changed Since1973 (When I First Started Traveling)
> 
> http://saulcarliner.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-travel-has-changed-since1973-when-i.html
> 
> ...*McDonald’s, Starbucks, and Dunkin Donuts have replaced Stuckeys as the roadside stop*. For those who aren’t familiar with it, Stuckey’s is a chain of roadside convenience stores with gas stations and limited counter service. Their advertised specialty was pralines, but I liked their sesame chips. When I took that first road trip in 1973, it seemed like we could find a Stuckey’s at every exit. I hardly every see them; I ran across one on the Florida panhandle a couple of years ago.
> 
> *Starbucks, Nathans, and Roy Rogers have replaced Howard Johnsons as the rest stop restaurant*. On the east coast, Howard Johnson’s was the leading family restaurant, and the restaurant at nearly every rest stop on every state turnpike. They had clean wash rooms, acceptable food, and great salt water taffy. By the mid-1980s, Roy Rogers replaced many of the Howard Johnson’s at rest stops. More recently, Starbucks and a resurgent Nathan’s have taken up shop at these rest stops.


I enjoyed reading that first linked blog. Thanks for posting it!

In the forum of your second link....."traildriver", is yours truly....


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## mightyjoe1201

Nice plate. Gotta be a collector's item by now. Which table did you find it at? There was so much stuff there that it was hard to decide what to get.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Nice plate. Gotta be a collector's item by now. Which table did you find it at? There was so much stuff there that it was hard to decide what to get.


Don't remember exactly which table....I also picked up some bus builder plates from Mack and ACF-Brill to add to my collection....

As you can see from my ebay link, you can also find those there...

The plate is a really heavy 'hotel grade' plate built to endure commercial service....


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## mightyjoe1201

That's cool. Only thing I got was a bus bank from Auto-Bus. It has special meaning to me since my grandfather drove for them and his was buried with him.

Maybe next year we'll get to run into each other if we both go.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Have any of you ever tried a MRE? I've been really curious about them ever since my uncle let me try a PLA (Chinese Army) compressed biscuit that he got from one of his old Army buddies. It tasted like a highly-compressed piece of bread. It wasn't particularly bad and I think I could use some of those when taking Greyhound.

I also asked on GTE and one guy says the Post House food was quite good.

Were there many Post Houses in the West? Most of them that I can find information about is in the East.


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## railiner

You can send 100 people into a restaurant, give them the same meal, and get almost as many different opinion's on how good (or bad) it was....in other words, food is a very subjective category. Some people have 'MRE' taste, and other's 'champagne and caviar'....and everything in between...

As far as I know, every Company operated terminal restaurant was at some point in time operated by the Post House chain. We had one in our Omaha Terminal during the years ('71-'73) that I worked there. And Post House operated the restaurant, bar, and gift shop at the Denver Bus Center, which was otherwise dominated by Continental Trailways. Highway rest stops could be either Post House or some other place...not sure how many of them were in the West...

I wish someone would research and write a definitive type history on bus terminal's and stops....there is very little published on that. Lot's more coverage and apparently interest on the buses themselves....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I forgot when the Reno terminal was exactly built, but it was in the 1970s. I can't find the post on GTE now. There's a crew dorm upstairs that's still in use. No food services.

I'm not very picky when it comes to food, as long as it tastes good, is safe to eat, and isn't overpriced for the portions.


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## mightyjoe1201

I just read something on the greyhound group on Facebook. Its about greyhound post houses. I'm not sure but I get the impression from their post that greyhound might b trying to bring them back.


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## Caesar La Rock

I found this old video of a 1981 TMC MC-9 heading for New Orleans. Despite the 6v92s being sluggish and the A/C units at times being inadequate, these buses did well for many years. Glad I was able to ride them, along with their younger cousins the 102A3s and MC-12s.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't like MC-9s. They're boring to me. Sure, they go the job done, but they were nothing special. They're like the M4 Shermans of buses.

Greyhound ain't gonna bring back the Post Houses. That was probably a joke. If Greyhound buses smell like urine and have sagging, sliding seats, I highly doubt brining back the Post Houses anytime soon.

Joe, in case you haven't seen, here's GTE, a Greyhound discussion board: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/info.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. I kept trying to find it but for some reason I couldn't. I'll have yo check it out.

I wasn't sure about what I saw on fb. I came across it by chance.

I used to like the mc9s. They were always my favorite buses to ride. Thought they were better then the prevosts I'd ridden growing up


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not saying the MC-9 is a bad bus, I'm just saying it's quite bland, lackluster, and unimpressive. Think about the M4 Sherman. Yeah, it got the job done, but it wasn't a great tank and certainly wasn't the best tank of its day. The claim to fame of the MC-9 was its high production figures and domination of bus production in the 1980s. Well, right now the J4500 is bestseller, and it's not that great of a bus.

Now, if you asked me to choose between a MC-9 and a D4505, I'd certainly choose the MC-9. And it also kicks the behind of any Van Hools.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hadn't looked at it that way. Growing up I never road a greyhound, only the charter and tours co buses. There were a few prevost la mirages and a few eagles, but mainly mc9 and later mci models. I can Sat to this day I've never ridden a vanhool. To tell you the truth, the mc8 and mc7 had a better ride then the mc9 to me.

After seeing what you've said about the D4505 I'm not sure I want to ride one. Lol.

What about the old gmc coaches? I've been on a few and thought they were ok. One co here had a former greyhound gmc. Sorry I don't remember the model tho. I do remember hearing drivers call it a buffalo


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## railiner

I liked the MC-9's. They were an improvement over the MC-8, which was an improvement over the MC-7......a lot less computer's and other techno-wizardry to go wrong.... 

Greyhound's last GM Coach were the PD-4107's, a 35 footer GL bought in 1966 and 1967....after that it was strictly MCI....MC-5's, 6's, 7's, etc.

The PD-4107 was aka a 'Buffalo' coach, and to some, a 'Batmobile'....In 1968, GM brought out a stretched version 40 footer, the PD-4903. By then GL stopped buying GM's.

Swadian knows what my all-time favorite "driver's" coach was, the earlier GMC PD-4106....and my all time favorite "passenger's" coach, the GMC PD-4501 Scenicruiser...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I too prefer the MC-7 and MC-8 over the MC-9, but I'm not sure why. I'd love to ride a MC-6, which was the first 102-inch-wide Greyhound.

Definitely don't want to ride a D4505 that has a flushing toilet. Those clog up every time someone throws toilet paper into it. With a straight-dump toilet it must be better. Also, I think the vinyl seats used by Greyhound hold in the foul odors. Greyhound's D4505s just really suck.

A Buffalo is a later GMC coach series, built 1966-1980. Not as good as the earlier ones AFAIK. Eagles are supposed to have the best ride, second-to-none.


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## railiner

I agree....Eagle's "rode like a Pullman"......


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I too prefer the MC-7 and MC-8 over the MC-9, but I'm not sure why.


What about the 7 and 8 did you prefer? Perhaps the 9 looked too boxy to you?

The 7 and 8 did have a little more 'style' to them, especially the rise in the roof near the front. But they also had that terrible 'blind spot' seat in the middle of the bus with 'no window'....you know....like an Amfleet coach.

The last year MC-8 (1978) did correct that problem....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Um, like I said, I don't know. I guess it was the "style" of the MC-7 and MC-8. Yeah, they had a blind spot, but I never sat there anyway. The MC-9 seemed, to me, like a boring version of the MC-8. I think GMCs had blind spots too. Not the Eagles, though. Those must have been really awesome to ride. I remember, from looking at pictures, that the Eagles had a dashboard like no other.

How come bus manufacturers no longer use Torsilastic suspensions?


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## Caesar La Rock

The MC-9s were really rugged and to this day, you can still see one around and an occasional MC-8, just not in Greyhound colors. Those days are long gone. Up until about 10 years ago it was possible to see MC-7s still operating for charter companies around here.

Oh and Eagles, man I wish I was able to ride one. I never got the chance and the funny thing is, I saw them every time. They usually did local runs between Orlando and Miami back then.


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## Swadian Hardcore

GMCs and Eagles were rugged too, weren't they? M4 Shermans were rugged - until you were getting shot at by Tigers and Panthers. With all due respect, I'd like to see some actual figures on how the MC-9s ruggedness matches up to some bus models. As in MDBF and mileage. In terms of specifications, the MC-9 doesn't seem that impressive. According to CoachInfo (http://www.coachinfo.com/All_About_Buses/MCI_Info.html), the MC-9 had a 51' turning circle, while the MC-7/8 only have 46', and the Eagles only had 45'.

Robert on GTE has a MC-7 with 4,500,000 miles on it. I'm guessing the MC-9 could do similar mileage? Greyhound's DL3s currently have about 2,500,000 each. They were selling White DL3s with over 2,000,000.

Again, not saying it's a bad bus. M4 Sherman wasn't a bad tank.


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## Caesar La Rock

While not taking anything away from the GMC highway coaches and Eagle coaches, how many of them are you likely to run into compared to an MC-9, or an MC-8, or to even turn it up a notch, an MC-8 or MC-9 rebuilt with A-D caps on them?

I have yet to see an Eagle and I've cruised the highways for the last six years (via car, not yet through bus, but I may try Megabus one day). The only GMC highway coach I've seen was an old GM PD-4104 converted to a RV, a few years ago.

I've either seen MC-8s, MC-9s, and A-D Series buses, and of course various newer coaches. Now as for getting MDBF and mileage information, that will be difficult to come by. Bus auctions happen everyday and who I'm not fully aware of who is selling what bus in this state. Although, elsewhere, you could ask that information to the user of this video of an Ex-Greyhound MC-9.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You see MC-9s a lot because they were produced in much larger numbers than Eagles. You don't see GMCs as much because they're older. GMCs fell out of favour after the 1960s. The MC-9s were mostly bult in the 1980s. And they were built in larger numbers than GMCs. Just over 1,000 PD-4501s were built. Over 9,000 MC-9s were built. And I barely see any MC-9s in the West. I did see a single ex-NJT MC-9 on my last trip, but I also saw an Eagle. I also saw a 102A3.

IMHO, how much you see today does not prove superiority. I have not seen any proof that the MC-9 is superior to its counterparts. In fact, while the M4 Sherman helped the US win World War II, the MC-9 did not help Greyhound win any "wars". Greyhound went bankrupt in 1990, when the MC-9 was its standard bus. I'm not saying the MC-9 resulted in Greyhound's bankruptcy, but I'm just making the analogy. The US could have won that war with other tank designs, just like how Greyhound would have gone bankrupt regardless of the bus models used, considering their mismanagement at the time.

Twenty years after World War II ended, would you see more M4 Shermans or Panthers?

On a different note, I was quite angered by a Greyhound driver on Facebook today who told me to "get used to the D4505". I will not "get used" to an ugly, fuel-guzzling contraption that smells like excrement and rides like a medieval dungeon!


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## Caesar La Rock

You may want to ask about reliability from the users who uploaded those videos there. While the MC-9 did not help any wars, it served millions of passengers for many years.

As for what a driver said about getting use to the D4505s, well if someone complains that a bus is crappy after so many times, it gets annoying to everyone on the Facebook group. There are other D4505s out there that most likely don't have the same issues.


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## mightyjoe1201

CJ, your right about the mc9. Its got to be reliable for so many of them to still be around. There have been other bus manufacturers that have made buses that didn't last long even tho they built a lot of a model.

Swadian, as for the D4505, they probably are a crappy bus but it may be that we don't have much choice any more with so many companies buying them. We just have to get uses to dealing with bad buses. Its also possible that driver may like that model too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

CJ, sir, I don't need to ask anyone whether the MC-9 is reliable. I know the MC-9 is reliable. I never said it wasn't reliable. I said it was nothing special. I know it served millions of passengers. That doesn't make it special. All that proves is that it's the bus equivalent of the M4 Sherman. A mediocre, unimpressive, boring bus. Reliability helps you get the job done. I never said the MC-9 wouldn't get the job done. Reliability alone doesn't help you keep/gain passengers or defeat competitors. By "war" in the context of the MC-9, I did not mean an actual war, but the war between transportation companies. Greyhound lost that "war", while using the MC-9.

Joe, I don't disagree with you. But, you see, is the MC-9 anything more than reliable? Let's look at some other buses that actually brought some flavor to the table. The MC-6 was a revolutionary 102-inch-wide motorcoach. The MC-8 was one the first motorcoaches to use a standard automatic transmission. The 102A3 was the first successful 102-incher and introduced rear sway bars. The 102DL3 was the first successful 45-footer and the first with a four-stroke engine. The H3-45 brought in a super-tough tubular stainless steel frame that is the strongest ever constructed in a bus. The MC-9? No innovation.

So, the MC-9, to me, is like plain white rice. You can eat it. It'll give you calories and some nutrients. It'll keep you alive, but it's no flavorful or "good-tasting". You have to have an appetite to have a good meal. The MC-9 does not give me an appetite.

Drivers may like the D4505 because they sit in a cloth velour USSC LX Series seat and they have a window that can be opened to eject the foul odors. They're also right by the front door. I might as well be harsh and say that drivers who like the D4505 are drivers who don't care about their passengers. Lots of bus industry people also fail to notice that the D4505 is a fuel guzzler. They also failed to notice that MCI took out most of the rivets that was the foundation of previous MCIs' durability.


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## mightyjoe1201

To each.his own when it comes to buses. I always liked the look of the mc9. Sometimes it just takes being reliable to win someone over.

Your right about some drivers. They may not care about their passengers. Tho it is possible for the driver not to smell anything up front. and I know from experience that some driver a r just plain weird with likes and dislikes in equipment. Lol. I've been accused of it myself.

Talking about older buses, most of you seem to like the eagles. Personally I hated them. Thought they had a really horrible ride. I didn't like how when they hit a hump it seek a like they are nice diving for several minutes till the suspension settles. I'd rather honest to God air tide rather then the crap eagle had.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You don't like Eagles?! Well, I'd still love to buy one. People say they have better cooling systems than the early MCIs.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the MC-9. It's not that great from a purely passenger perspective, lacked innovation, and probably wasn't particularly profitable to operate. I don't like unreliable stuff either, but I like innovation.

As for the D4505, I find it quite disrespectful for a driver to say "get used to the D4505". Now I'm really fed up.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry about the bad spelling in my last post. I must've been typing fast and not catching my mistakes.

As for the eagles, the suspension was the only thing I didn't like. That and the last one I was on had a flush toilet the was clogged.

Unfortunately I don't have as much experience with different bus manufacturers and models as you guys do. Most companies around here pretty much ran the.same types of buses. We had one company running an mc7 up until two year ago when he closed.

I don't blame you about the D4505. That was rude for that driver. I'd comment on that model but haven't had the pleasure or may be displeasure of riding one yet. Lol. That may be a while.

You guys are always bashing the vanhools. What's the problem with them from a passenger point of view?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Van Hools? I'd say it's the bad ride quality and the low-quality interior. The headroom is poor and the parcel racks are tiny. Also, they don't have air vents along the window sill, they only have thin, single-layer sidewalls that give the bus a "rickety" feel. Their air vents are apparently down along the ground. Obviously, dust would get in there quite easily. The Van Hools seem to be quite unstable and just poor quality. Lots of them are in poor condition after a few years of use.

They also have more crashes and fatalities than other bus models, probably due to their shabbiness. I doubt they are inherently dangerous, but Van Hools do lack window escape bars and only have the little red handles holding windows on.

I've never ridden an Eagle so don't take my word on it. But since it's regarded as an awesome, smooth-riding, high-tech bus, I'd buy one for private use if the price was right and I had the money to spare. Of course I'd test it and try it out first (if I were to buy one).


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. I've never been on a vanhool. After that I hope I never am on one.

I will say that other then eagles feeling like they are nose diving after hitting a bump, the ride great and are comfortable. The nose dive is the best I can describe it. The bus rocked front to back almost like a see saw. Definitely high tech. Last one I was on was one built not too long before the stopped building them. Everything was power or air operated and really up yo date. Just my former boss had idiots working on them. Tjry had the inside running lights on the roof instead of under the seats like mci has. Well, they were supposed to be soft blue but where normal white bulbs instead.


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## railiner

Lots of strong opinions here.......I love the lively debate. 

My two cents.....

The Eagles did have a great ride, mostly because of the very long amount of 'travel' in their suspension, that could absorb the largest potholes with ease, along with independent front suspension.. That said, if the shock absorbers were not maintained or changed when necessary, they could rebound excessively, yielding a ride that could induce 'seasickness' in some. The Eagle's were great handling curvy roads with superior handling characteristics. Very little free play or slack in the wheel. The early models had Ross cam and lever steering, and despite not having power assist, were easy to steer as long as you were moving slightly. Later on they gained power assist. As for 'superior cooling system'....well around here, we used to joke that the Eagle's came with a soda can....you know....to prop open the engine door a few inches to prevent overheating.  And the Eagle's had a twelve volt electrical system, versus the 24 volt system used in the MCI. If you left the florescent interior lights on a bit too long without the engine running, you had better have some booster cables nearby....

As for the Van Hools....our 2006 and 2009 models have a truly harsh ride. Our 2012 and newer have a much improved ride, but still inferior to both Prevost and MCI.

One thing I will say for the Van Hools....in certain aspects they seem much higher quality than our Prevosts...the baggage doors and other exterior doors feel and operate much more substantially than our Prevosts....the fit and finish, the panel gaps are superior. For example, to open the H3-45 lav service door, you must press your foot against the battery door, or the fiberglass edges will bind, preventing the opening. The rear engine door operates very nicely on the Van Hool. The one on the Prevost usually must be slammed hard in order to engage the latches on both sides.

By the way....the air conditioning on the Van Hool is delivered from the overhead vents, that are just ambient air fans on the Prevost and MCI's. The floor ducts on the Van Hool are strictly hot water for heating. the Van Hool has an advantage there, too.....the preheaters not only heat the radiator with the engine off (can be preset on a timer), but actually circulate the water and heat the entire coach. One more Van Hool advantage....the cabin goes all the way back to the rear of the bus, allowing the optional rear window. The MCI and Prevost have exhaust equipment taking up almost the equivalent of a row of seats. So with the same total rows, the seat pitch is better in the Van Hools.

Now to the D4505's....we only have three in our fleet, and I am not too familiar with them, as they normally don't run into The City. They are used on our Albany to Long Island trips, to comply with the State requirement to keep them within New York State. (trips to The City cut thru a corner of New Jersey). Today we had one, (62117) come in on a pooled Greyhound trip. I got to move it from one gate to another in The Port, and did not detect any foul odor from any source.....


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## mightyjoe1201

Was just on Facebook. If you guys check out either bus boys plc or Stan holster, he's got pics of his beautiful mc6 in the greyhound livery. He was just out in California with it.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, auto correct did it to keep again, that's bus boys llc or Stan holter. I didn't catch bit in time


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## railiner

Thanks for that tip....I took a look and it was very nostalgic....I rode the very first MC-6X prototype (4599), when it was undergoing testing for three months on the New York City / Chicago Nonstop Turnpike Express in the fall of 1967. Back then it was powered by a DD 12v-71 and a four speed manual....

The 4169 looks like the lettering was hand painted....a bit too small compared to original livery.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

It seems like doors are the main problem of Prevosts. Lots of door problems get reported with them. Van Hools are made of carbon steel, rather than fiberglass, like the H3-45. So I would still expect them to corrode easily, even though their frame is now stainless steel. I don't like the overhead air vents on the Van Hools. They blow in your face and make it hard to relax.

Didn't realize those floor vents were actually for heating. Still, I feel like they are placed in a poor position. I saw a video a ways back that showed roaches infesting the air vents. While the preheater is an advantage, the vents seem like a design flaw to me.

During a garage tour, it was explained to me that the MCI E/J models actually have a passenger cabin going all the way back. He was able to show me by pointing out the "pattern" from the outside and the inside. The older steel MCI models have the radiator/air intake there. The DL3s dual fans are the radiator on the left and the intercooler on the right. Prevosts do have the exhaust equipment there.

Adirondack probably maintains their D4505s well and don't allow the toilets to get clogged for long, causing the odor. Greyhound, OTOH, defers maintenance on toilets and theirs get clogged all the time. Most (or maybe all) states allow Greyhound to use state-owned D4505s on interstate service. Utah-owned D4505s often run the SLC-Reno. Today we actually got an Americanos X3-45 on the 8311 to San Francisco. But, otherwise, it was still a D4505 party.

NYC-Chicago nonstop with a 12-cylinder engine! WOW, that must have been great!


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## Caesar La Rock

While the MC-9s lacked innovation, it was "succeeded" by the 102A3, but even then, the MC-9 made available until 1990. NJT went back and bought 415 more in 1987 and even bought one 96A3.

Greyhound bought the MC-12s, which were 96 inches wide and IMO were just as good as the MC-9s. It was interesting to see all of those coaches at one time. Even today, depending on where you live, you can still see them.

I've been on Van Hools before. The T2145 model wasn't too bad of a ride, especially traveling from Orlando to St. Augustine. Now as for the Van Hool C2045 owned by Mears, that was really smooth ride. I think it was either a 2010-2011 model.

I wish the ride could of been longer, but I do have a chance to ride Megabus one day (though they use TD925s). Plus next year another express route is being planned and motorcoaches are on the topic, I'm hoping for Van Hool CX45s for the order.

Getting back to the subject, the legroom was really good on those and the seats were comfy, though the seats didn't recline. That was the downside of riding 4209, but at least it was an experience to ride on a C2045 for the first time ever. There was also a bathroom, which I never looked inside of, but looking at how clean the entire coach was, it wasn't too bad.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The more you argue that the MC-9 is reliable and was produced in huge numbers, the more you agree with me that the MC-9 is akin to the M4 Sherman. We actually agree with each other that the MC-9 is the bus equivalent of the M4. I just don't like the MC-9 nor do I like the M4 Sherman. I'm sure you'd like the M4. It was reliable and mobile. Produced in large numbers and served for a long time. Just like the MC-9. However, I don't think it was a great tank and thus I don't think the MC-9 and MC-12 are great buses. Admittedly, it was fun to try out the manual roll sign and entrance door on a MC-12.

In that case, we'll have to agree to disagree about the "greatness" of the MC-9. I like buses with innovation, and the MC-9 lacks it, so I don't like it. Of course I don't hate it, either.

Anyway, attached are some photos of a MCI D4500CT demonstrator. Photos courtesy BusBoys LLC.


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## Caesar La Rock

No one is arguing about numbers, you misinterpreting the post I made. I added the NJT order of 1987 to show that despite the fact 102 inch wide buses were available, they went back again for more 96 inch wide buses, even though they did that again with their Flxible Metro order from 1989. Also, not a fan of tanks or anything that has to do with war.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NJT wouldn't want 102-inch buses since those are harder to maneuver in urban areas. Besides, NJT also orders D4500CTs, and you know those aren't too great.

I'm a huge fan of military history, so you will not understand my analogy. I knew you wouldn't understand my analogy 'cause you like MC-9s. Swadians are too aggressive to like MC-9s.


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## rickycourtney

Wow. Love that interior on that D4500CT demonstrator!

The seats are stylish and they look comfortable (of course that's what I thought of the Patriot before I sat on one), the interior is bright (I assume it's all LED lighting) and those overhead bins look rather large. I also like the LED headlights on the outside.

About the only thing I don't like is that its equipped with three across seating in the back row. I wouldn't want to be jammed in a narrow middle seat between two strangers, nor would I want the aisle seat where the bathroom door is opening into my knees during the entire trip.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Patriot? Well, the Patriot is comfortable anyway. Those seats are Kiel Avance 2050: https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/074/17a/35149ca.jpg. 

Here's an article about the seats: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140717200827-234134097-lightweight-kiel-seats-continue-to-attract-commuters-save-fuel. 

They're lightweight, slimline seats that increase legroom and help save fuel, but are very hard. I found them to be very ergonomic, though I wish there was more padding. The FAINSA/Amaya seats really have tons of padding.

Again, I don't like the damp-looking grey interior walls of the bus, though I think the seats look fine. That D4500CT appears to be a MassDOT-spec low-roof version. Greyhound's two D4500CTs (#86575-86576) have the same seats. With a DD13 and IFS, this sounds like a good bus. As long as it doesn't have a flushing toilet and poor build quality.


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## railiner

Does that restroom door open inward or outward?  I can't recall offhand, but I thought the 'D' type restrooms open inward....


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## rickycourtney

I meant the Premier, not the Patriot.

I thought the Premier looked comfortable until I sat on one.

With the slimline seats are you saying the backrest is hard, the seat cushion or the whole thing? I took another flight this weekend on an Alaska Airlines 737-800 equipped with Recaro slimline seats. The backrest has very little padding, but the seat cushion is very comfortable. My point is... it really doesn't matter to me how hard the backrest is as long as it's ergonomic. The seat cushion is what really matters (so it's not surprising that a bad seat cushion also happens to be what IMHO makes the Premier extremely uncomfortable).

Not sure if the door swings in or out... either way that seat in the middle of the aisle is awkward and the middle seat is uncomfortable. Not worth it to pack one extra passenger in.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NJT wouldn't want 102-inch buses since those are harder to maneuver in urban areas. Besides, NJT also orders D4500CTs, and you know those aren't too great.
> 
> I'm a huge fan of military history, so you will not understand my analogy. I knew you wouldn't understand my analogy 'cause you like MC-9s. Swadians are too aggressive to like MC-9s.


No, I'm just not a fan of anything involving war. Sorry you feel that the MC-9s aren't "innovated", but to a lot of other people who drove and rode them they were. The 9s are still aggressively prowling the roads despite being 25-30+ years old and counting...

As for the D4500CT demo, it looks handsome and the interior looks good on top of that. Reminds me of Broward County's D4500CTs, except they use ISL engines. Sadly, I don't think Orlando will get these coaches, but remains to be seen.


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## Swadian Hardcore

MC-9 fan, you don't have any concrete evidence proving the superiority of the MC-9 over other bus models. All you've proven is that the MC-9 is a M4 Sherman. All you've proven has been my point all along. So you're wasting my time. I know you don't have the evidence because I know the MC-9 is not the best bus ever built. A certain very popular bus model running as private buses 25 years later proves absolutely nothing other than a bus that last a long time, and lots of good buses last a long time. Don't bring up the MC-9 again. It simply leads to unending arguments. It'd be better for both of us not to bring it up.

For the purpose of avoiding quagmire arguments, I will no longer respond to posts that mention the MC-9.

The door on MCI's steel buses swings in. That includes the D's.

Yes, the Kiels have very ergonomic and very hard seat backs. The seat bottom cushions were fine. They're comfortable seats, but the seat backs could have been softer.

The middle seat is probably uncomfortable, though I've never had the misfortune to be packed in there. I think they should put it in anyway, but not count it as a revenue seat. That way, the 3 seats in the back would be occupied by no more than 2 passengers. The extra seat would just be there to stretch out on. I like sitting in the 3 seats if I get them all to myself.


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## Caesar La Rock

It's not nice to get defensive with people, even when they made some good points. Sorry that you're getting upset over it, but I'm standing by my points whether you agree with them or not. Anyone know what type of seats these are? I've been trying to figure it out, but so far have come up empty.


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## Bob Dylan

Is that Donald Trump's Clown Bus?


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## Caesar La Rock

jimhudson said:


> Is that Donald Trump's Clown Bus?


LMAO, I use to think the same thing when I saw those.


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## railiner

Not sure,,,,I am by no means a 'seat authority',(  ),.... but I do know that Van Hool does have a proprietary seat of their own, in addition to the other commercial brands to choose from....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Defensive? Go buy your favorite bus and live in it if you wish! Drive it all day long. I will not listen to you. Good points without evidence is excrement. Your points aren't even good. You think they are good, but they are not.

Just pay attention.

You don't even know what I'm talking about. You don't even know what a M4 Sherman is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCYudoOgBkY.

That Van Hool has American Seating 2004.


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## Caesar La Rock

American Seating 2004, thank you.


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## rickycourtney

So I finally spotted one of the BoltBus H3-45 coaches out in the wild earlier this week. Unfortunately I was on a transit bus about a 1/4 mile behind it so that's about all I know. Too far away to see the fleet number or get a peek at the exterior. Still, I think refurbishing an older H3-45 was a smart and inexpensive way to get a nice coach on the road as BoltBus expands.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I definitely prefer riding older motorcoaches. Their seats are far more comfortable than any of Greyhound's new motorcoaches. A new bus alone is enough to justify not riding. For example, if Greyhound keeps using D4505s here, I won't ride Greyhound. If they used H3-45s, I would probably ride, unless they had the Painful Premiers.

According to Jason Futch, the BoltBus H3-45s are #6666, #6669, and #6670. #6667 and #6668 are still in plain-white livery, meaning they can run anything for Greyhound. Mostly charters, reportedly.

Greyhound should have rebuilt all their DL3s instead of buying D4505s. They could have bought only X3-45s. Unfortunately, the X3-45s still have Painful Premiers.

I've got another big gripe on Greyhound. Their drivers don't depart on time. They either board passengers, then disappear for a while before coming back to depart late, or they don't board at all until departure time, and then disappear and depart late. I'm sick and tired of drivers that are ready to go and intentionally depart late.


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## mightyjoe1201

It may not be that the drivers are purposely departing late. I've noticed at a lot of stations after boarding they have to go over to the office or ticket counter before leaving. I guess it's to verify or something the number of passengers. As for not boarding till departure time it's possible the bus was late getting there to begin with. I always hated getting to a stop late and the driver still sitting there after departure time because they were scheduled a break there. If your late you don't take break time, you keep going till your back on schedule.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Al Garcia actually made it even worse because he decided to take extra breaks even though he was already running late. Thankfully, we had tons of padding in the timetable, so we arrived as late as we began with. But I would have preferred to make up some time and arrive on time rather than taking the extra stops, because that D4505 was completely rotten inside.

I guess the driver has to match up his manifest or something, but in that case, he should have boarded passengers earlier and then gone into the station, come back out, and depart on time.

Not boarding till departure time happens even at the start of the run. For example, one time I was going to ride the 8311 Reno-San Francisco run and the bus was originating in Reno. There was no connection from anywhere. That D4505 had been sitting there when I got to the station. But the driver didn't start boarding until departure time. He departed 20 minutes late, then proceeded to make up the time by Sacramento. OK, at least he made up the time, but there are other cases when the driver doesn't make up any time.


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## mightyjoe1201

I actually explodes on a greyhound driver out in Wisconsin for being four hours late. He said it was because the bus com I.g into Chicago was late. I asked him if he just kept moving because no, I still have to give ppl a break. I told him to f off and that he was supposes to jeep running and make ppl stay on. I almost lost a job he cause the idiot insisted on taping every break that was scheduled. If there was a layover on the schedule he stayed for that length of time. I'd rather have to wait.to smoke then be too late to make a bus connection.


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## railiner

I must agree with some of the complaints here. Greyhound's "culture" of late is of a very 'relaxed' operation....I see driver's report late to departure gates, and begin their pretrip inspection at the time they should have started or completed loading of passenger's. And then 'find' a defect at the last minute to refuse a bus, and then have to wait for them to bring a replacement around. Other times I have seen driver's load their schedules, close the door, and then have the nerve to leave for ten or fifteen minutes to get some food and drinks to take with them. Usually, it is the NYC based driver's guilty of this tardiness....driver's heading for 'home' are generally, but not always, more 'motivated' to leave on time. I can't say for sure, but the way the driver's are paid by the hour, rather than by the mile, may have some strong bearing on this tardiness, where they are rewarded for arriving late.

As for cutting a rest stop, to make up time on a late trip....I have some mixed feelings about that. If it is during the late night hours, when most passenger's would rather sleep than get off to buy food, it is not so bad. But if it is a during a regular breakfast or dinner time, it may not be so good. Especially bad in some situations, where some passenger's connected off a late schedule, and had no chance to get something even before boarding...

And on very long trips, the driver's need a break, just to use the restroom or stretch a bit. It could be a safety issue as well.


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## mightyjoe1201

I have to disagree with you railiner on the breaks. I may only drive a transit bus but I must skip my breaks If I'm running late. That means I don't get a bathroom break no matter how bad I gotta go. If you don't get time to get something. Eat that's your problem. There's always machines if need be and a prepared traveler will have food and drink with them anyway.

Even getting paid by the mile won't really make a difference in lateness. Your getting paid the same. There should be penalties for drivers who are exceptionally late where it's their fault. Wether it be losing out on a trip or getting stuck on something besides your normal run. Or even do like the trucking industry at times does. Dock their pay.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201.....how long are your trips? Are any of them 8 to 10 hours long? Do you mean to tell me, you can go that long without a break?

As for pay....when driver's are paid by the mile....the more miles they go, the higher their pay. When driver's are paid by the hour, the longer it takes them the higher their pay.

That said, they are expected to perform their run according to the schedules, but if there are delays thru no fault of their own, they do earn extra compensation for late arrivals. So they are not motivated to 'hurry', unless they want to get 'home' sooner. Greyhound's safety rules clearly state that 'safety is of the first importance', etc...that if running late, to stay late, and not speed or take chances to make up time. On the other hand, 'malingering' is something that should not be tolerated, and if a driver is chronically found at fault in that regard, they are (or should be disciplined).


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## mightyjoe1201

Each of.my trips are an hour-long. I get anywhere from one minute to 26 minutes between trips. That being said, it's a 12 hour day for me. I may not put the miles on they do but I do work and drive about the same in hours. I will take a min or two extra to use tags restroom if I have to. Tho I may go for four or five hours straight if I have to.

As for mileage pay, its nit what it's cracked up yo be. That's how I was paid when I drove truck. Knowing there were penalties is what would make a driver stay on time. Also, bus drivers have an easier time because they can take breaks and not lose driving time, where truck drivers lose driving time if they take to I many breaks or a shipper or receiver takes to long.

Safety always does come first. Speeding is not a way to make up time. Usually it leads to wrecks or even bein later. Lol. But they could skip breaks that are scheduled and skip any layover that's scheduled to make up the time. There should be penalties when the driver causes the route to be late because he lingered too long. When it's not his fault then no, no penalties.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, we are assigned to a specific route which only has one bus ans one driver for the day. I forgot to mention that.


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## Swadian Hardcore

My opinion on breaks is that daytime meal breaks should be taken even a bus is late, but all other breaks should be cut. Of course, if the driver needs to use the restroom, he can take a break. But if he takes breaks just to let passengers smoke, while the bus is running late, that is not OK. Not everyone wants to smoke anyway. Same goes for breaks in the middle of the night.

I'm against speeding but I think a bus may need to go over the speed limit for a few seconds just to pass a slower vehicle. The more quickly that bus passes that vehicle, the safer. It minimizes the "blind spot time". That's why I'm against speed governors. With buses, you're running with free-flowing road traffic, and the extra speed may prove useful for safety.

IMHO, the best solution for pay is probably a combination. The hourly pay is bad because it rewards drivers for driving late. Mileage pay is better and should replace it. Then, of course, you also have to punish drivers who intentionally slack and delay their bus. Start with suspensions and fire them if they continue such behaviour. The relaxed, complacent attitude at Greyhound really sucks for the passengers. Employees seem like they'd rather slack than do a good job. Greyhound drivers say there's plenty of new recruits but very few stay for long. That causes the driver shortage and all kinds of other problems.

What's bad for the passengers ends up being bad for everyone at the company because passengers generate the vast majority of revenue.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Each of.my trips are an hour-long. I get anywhere from one minute to 26 minutes between trips. That being said, it's a 12 hour day for me. I may not put the miles on they do but I do work and drive about the same in hours. I will take a min or two extra to use tags restroom if I have to. Tho I may go for four or five hours straight if I have to.


So which is it? You will "take a min or two extra to use restroom if have to" or "go four or five hours straight if have to"?

Take GL schedule 4425...depart New York 2215, arrive Milesburg 0215, depart 0245, and arrive Cleveland 0650. So if you got a late start from New York for some reason not your fault,, and/or encountered fog delays along the way, you would skip the only rest stop at Milesburg to recover the time?

On your job, you have multiple opportunities (every hour) to get out of the seat, stretch, or use the restroom. Not the same as being stuck in the seat for eight hours straignt on an express run.


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## mightyjoe1201

I've been stuck in the seat for 8 or more hours because of construction. I also uses to drive truck and would have loads where I literally did not have time to stop and had to go for over ten hours without stopping


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## Swadian Hardcore

If the driver departs NYD late for reasons not of his fault, he should make the stop at Milesburg and use the restroom, then continue to CLD. The 30-minute rest stop in Milesburg is too long, and should be reduced to 15 minutes anyway. You don't need 30 minutes to use the restroom.

If the driver intentionally departs late from NYD, he should be disciplined regardless of the rest stops.

If the driver is already running late and makes excessive rest stops or extends rest stops, he should be disciplined for intentionally delaying his bus further in an attempt to get extra pay.

Unfortunately, Greyhound timetables are a huge mess and clearly show a lack of attention to timing detail. Airline timetables are much more professionally-made. Poor timetabling on Greyhound's part causes further problems. They also still have that inaccurate route map on their website.


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Unfortunately, Greyhound timetables are a huge mess and clearly show a lack of attention to timing detail. Airline timetables are much more professionally-made. Poor timetabling on Greyhound's part causes further problems. They also still have that inaccurate route map on their website.



I have to disagree with you about the timetables. As someone who designed schedules, driver runs and equipment cycles, I can tell you that there are many, many other factors besides projected driving time that go into schedule design. The published schedules dictate way more than just arrival and departure times. They determine driver pay, equipment scheduling, maintenance scheduling, terminal scheduling and connections among other things. This is all in addition to keeping each schedule and the runs they break down into within hours of service. You tweak one piece and the others change significantly. A change of +/- 5 minutes in any particular trip can mean the difference between a run needing an additional driver, or a missed connection that has to get retimed as well, affecting another schedule and so on....

In its basic form, scheduling is the balance of all factors relating to operations. Yes, many of the schedules have issues - but it's a give and take.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Still, airline timetables are written better than bus timetables. They don't have excessive padding or excessive stops. What problems would it cause to simply get rid of a few rest stops and cut some padding? You're not going to jeopardize any connections if you simply run the bus faster, nor would it increase drivers hours. Yes, terminal scheduling could be affected, but that's it.

Airlines, unlike Greyhound, put aircraft into fixed rotations that result in higher fleet utilization. For example, last time #6389 had come from SLC but didn't go back to SLC the next day. Instead, D4505 #86308 ran to SLC. That was a clear example of poor fleet utilization. Another example is the middle-of-night refueling stops. Greyhound doesn't distinguish between the technical details of buses, resulting in wasted driving range.

Buses serve passengers, not the other way around.


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## jebr

Removing rest stops, especially on longer routes, seems like a really bad idea. If there's rest stops every hour or two, maybe, but at least on my trip the other week from Chicago to St. Paul there was only one true rest stop around breakfast time. I would *not* have liked it if that stop was removed. I've also taken a Megabus trip for 16 hours with only one rest stop. This annoyed me greatly, and while not the sole reason is one of the reasons that I haven't taken Megabus since (and will not be doing so for any real long-distance trips.)

Why should a passenger be expected to carry on food for a 16 or 24 hour trip, or even a shorter trip that fully covers a meal time? Even for shorter legs, a passenger who may have had time at the terminal to eat during a layover or pick up additional food (and expecting that to replenish their food supply on a long trip) may see that time removed if their arriving bus runs late and they need to quickly get to their connecting bus.


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## metrolinecoach111

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Still, airline timetables are written better than bus timetables. They don't have excessive padding or excessive stops. What problems would it cause to simply get rid of a few rest stops and cut some padding? You're not going to jeopardize any connections if you simply run the bus faster, nor would it increase drivers hours. Yes, terminal scheduling could be affected, but that's it.
> 
> Airlines, unlike Greyhound, put aircraft into fixed rotations that result in higher fleet utilization. For example, last time #6389 had come from SLC but didn't go back to SLC the next day. Instead, D4505 #86308 ran to SLC. That was a clear example of poor fleet utilization. Another example is the middle-of-night refueling stops. Greyhound doesn't distinguish between the technical details of buses, resulting in wasted driving range.
> 
> Buses serve passengers, not the other way around.


Actually, airline timetables DO have a decent amount of padding, depending on the airline. All airlines include the time needed to taxi around the airport. Look at any airlines schedules from LGA, JFK, EWR, ORD, LAX, ATL, SFO or DCA for example. Every one of them are padded significantly because of the projected time on the ground. But if any issues arise during the course of a day, the effects build up later in the day in other locations, resulting in delays.

An example of an airline that doesn't have a lot of padding and really got burned by it was Southwest. Southwest is famous for their turn times - 20 to 30 minutes in most cases. They are able to do this primarily because most of the crews are scheduled as throughs into and out of a particular destination. Same crew in and out in a majority of cases. Southwest management wanted to increase the number of departures without increasing the number of planes used. The result was a 15% decrease in OTP systemwide over a 12-month period and customer satisfaction rates dropping 10%.

Needless to say, they corrected this and things are better.

Unlike airlines, buses operate on the road, the same roads where cars are. While airlines face congestion, they are a result of entering or leaving an airport in most case. If there's an issue with a particular airspace, they can easily maneuver around it and have assistance with both their dispatcher and ATC to do so in addition to their computers and vector systems. Drivers in general only have their instinct, experience and maybe GPS to deal with accidents, weather and construction. Those rest stops may be excessive, but they are based on past performance of schedules and what the terminal reports as problems. You need padding to anticipate potential traffic, congestion and late starts from connections.

As railiner mentioned earlier, safety is paramount in Greyhound culture. They prefer to take the drivers off the road every 3-4 hours to break up the driving and keep the drivers relaxed and refreshed as much as possible. 

Also, you shouldn't assume why a particular bus is scheduled without knowing any of the facts aside from what you see. In my experience as a dispatcher, in the field, in the office and in OSC in Dallas, any number of factors can influence why buses do and do not go out. It could be that the driver on the previous leg experienced a problem enroute, that particular bus needed to get to be switched off to another route or was requested by Dallas to be held for another unknown purpose.


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## jebr

Speaking of wish, I did take Greyhound the other weekend on my way back from Chicago to St. Paul. My thoughts:

1. The Chicago Greyhound station needs, at minimum, better cleaning services. The men's bathroom was extremely dirty and my significant other reported that the women's bathroom was the worst she's seen (and she's traveled a lot.)

2. In-station wi-fi (at least in Chicago) needs to be fixed. The wi-fi at the station was extremely slow; so slow that I could not surf the web effectively or download a few podcasts to listen to on the bus. I can understand the slowness on a bus, but not at a station. There were maybe 100 people within the station, and even a business-class connection of 100Mb (enough to give people at least a reasonable, if not extremely fast, connection) in a major city should only cost a couple hundred bucks on the high end. Wi-fi at Union Station is much better, as is the wi-fi at St. Paul's Union Depot.

3. The bus itself was fine, if not amazing. It took a bit to find a comfortable position to sleep in (this was an overnight, 7.5 hour travel time route,) but overall wasn't too bad. My significant other commented that she got decent sleep on the bus as well. The bus driver did make two unexpected stops at a highway rest area to use the restroom there; passengers could not get off. The scheduled rest stop in Tomah was also made and was fine. I did sleep for probably another 4-5 hours once I got home, though that may be a mix of not-great sleep on the bus and general lack of sleep.

Overall, once we got on the bus the trip was fine. The Chicago station is so terrible, though, that we will likely avoid any Greyhound route going through Chicago due to that unless it has some major cost advantage over Megabus (the other competing bus service on this route) or Spirit Airlines (which we use for quick trips due to its very inexpensive cost and speed advantage.) At this time it usually does not have that advantage.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree with what you guys are saying. Meal stops should definitely be made. I guess you guys haven't ridden Greyhound in the West. The excessive stops I'm talking about are when the driver stops every 1-2 hours for a "smoke break". To me, there is a big difference between a meal stop and a smoke break.

See, I get pissed when the Reno-Salt Lake City bus makes rest stops at Lovelock, Winnemucca, Battle Mountain, Elko, and Wendover, regardless of day or night and regardless of previous delays. I also get pissed when the driver turns on the interior lights while making a smoke break in the middle of the night. These stops are excessive. I don't need to use the restroom 5 times on a 8-hour bus ride. And the Reno-Salt Lake City would only be 8 hours if Greyhound didn't have a 68 mph speed governor and excessive stops like the aforementioned. The driver would probably rather driver 8 hours fast than 10 hours slow. And pay him by the mile so he doesn't intentionally delay his bus.

The speed limit is 75 mph. No reason why Greyhound should be restricted to 68 mph when tractor-trailers are going 75. It's not "safety" anymore when you are going slower than everyone else. I'd be shocked if a DL3 couldn't safety run through the big, flat desert at the speed limit of 75 mph. And a lot of routes in the West are big, flat deserts with 75 mph speed limits. Some are even 80 mph.

And if Greyhound really cared so much about safety, why would they defer maintenance? I've seen Greyhound's SAFERSYS records. Lots of violations. Lots more violations than a good bus line like Adirondack. Why defer maintenance if you care about "safety"? Why not maintain your buses properly and drive the speed limit with confidence?

I'm not against padding, I'm not against rest stops, nor am I against speed governors. I am against _too much_ padding, too many rest stops, and speed governors well below the actual speed limit.

Am I wrong?

Jeb, do you remember what bus you rode?


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, you are one if the first people ice cone across outside if the transportation industry that thinks speed governors that cut the vehicle back to below the speed limit is wrong. Thank God you feel that way cause its been proven that going slower then traffic is more dangerous.

As to getting paid by the mile, it really doesn't force a driver to try to stay on time because he knows he probably won't get extra miles given the hours of service laws. You get more productivity out of hourly drivers then by the mile drivers. Especially knowing that you will make far less by the mile then by the hour.

I agree mostly with the rest stops. If it's not on the schedule then don't stop, especially at night. I smoke myself but would sooner buy a vape or e cigarette then stop countless times. And if the driver is running late, no matter the fault don't sit. When you get to a pick up/ drop off stop only stay ling enough yo get passengers on or off and pull out right away. A meal stop is different even tho I feel they should be skipped if the bus is running excessively late.

Your right, maintenance should never be deferred unless it's minor and a non safety issue that can wait till at a shop. Otherwise, get it fixed on the road even if it means extra money or extra time. I'd rather lose time to get a bus fixed th st has safety issues then continue till the next station with a repair shop.

I cam understand padding if it's a schedule that is known to have major traffic or weather delays but otherwise agree with you. I know with my bus schedule there are times I wish I had more time to do my run but do it anyway. The padding issue sounds like something the unions idiots wanted.

Greyhound could get rid of the union then maintenance and excessive stopping, etc would probably stop.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Get rid of the union? Ah, I don't think that's going to happen. Those drivers would get really angry if they found out the company was going to bust the ATU. It probably wouldn't be good for the company and it'd be a PR disaster. Though even some drivers say the union leaders are stupid.

The union probably doesn't cause deferred maintenance, though. I don't know what causes deferred maintenance at Greyhound, but surely they know that it's always cheaper to maintain buses properly than to defer maintenance. Clearly, Greyhound doesn't maintain all their buses as well as they can and should. Apparently Greyhound decided to defer maintenance and they "play it safe" by driving below the speed limit.

No offence, but I hope you can quit smoking as it is very bad for your health.

I find that I sleep well on overnight runs when the bus is comfortable and the schedule is timed along a hypnogram (which shows REM and deep sleep). Slept very well on DL3 #60316 running the Los Angeles-Sacramento overnight extra section because there was only one rest stop at Avenal and another quick stop in Stockton, but more importantly, the stops came when I wasn't in deep sleep. I was alert the whole day and didn't go to bed until 11:00 PM, despite getting tortured on the D4505 connecting to Reno. Slept like crap on the Reno-SLC overnights with Painful Premiers.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry, I don't care for unions. Its a thought tho because without them greyhound could be a lot better then they are. I'm sure even the mechanics are union which is probably why they try to avoid maintenance on the road.

I've tried quitting smoking but it's not easy, especially when my girlfriend smokes also. Maybe someday it'll happen.

I don't know how anyone can sleep on a moving bus. No matter how comfortable the seats are. I have a hard time sleeping in a moving vehicle. I don't get sick but just can't sleep well unless I'm totally exhausted. I never did understand why the interior lights had to be turned on if it was only the driver getting off. I could see if passengers can get off or its at a bus station or stop where they will be getting on or off or a meal stop. If the driver needs a light there is a driver's light that can be used so not to disturb the passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not a member of a union and I've never worked with or dealt with a union before, so I will no judge whether unions are good or bad. All I can say is that the unions probably aren't the only cause of Greyhound's problems. For example, I find it hard to understand why Greyhound ordered Painful Premiers. That probably wasn't caused by the unions. I doubt they would dictate the specific seat model that Greyhound orders, though it is true that the Premiers are Made in USA.

That being said, you do have a point. Unions probably prevent Greyhound from cracking down on intentional driver delays and also reduce the power and control that Greyhound has over their schedules. Still, I find it hard to see why Greyhound runs Reno-Salt Lake City so slowly. Perhaps the slow speed governors were installed to help Greyhound drivers earn more pay?

As for smoking, it's probably very hard to quit, but it's dangerous and could kill you.

Perhaps you can't sleep on a moving bus because you are a driver and, instinctively, you do not sleep on a moving vehicle. Though, I mean, if you're flying on an intercontinental jet such as a 747, travelling overnight, you'd have to sleep or face terrible jet lag. I personally prefer daytime flights.


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## rickycourtney

Goodbye G4500 headlights... looks like the D4505 and all the flavors of the D4500CT and the D4000CT are now coming equipped with new LED headlights. I also heard there's a newly redesigned rear end cap. Couple that with the tweaked interior design Swad posted... it's clear to me that MCI does not intend to totally redesign the D4505, they're just putting more lipstick on this old design.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't think they have a new rear cap. Looks the same to me. But damn, does that Toronto Police D4505 look ugly! The LED headlights look horrible on the D4505, especially when their filler caps aren't the same color as the rest of the bus. To make things worse, there's the ugly black curve painted over the front.

The D4500CT looks better now, but still looks horrible in NJT's livery. The LED headlights, bonded roof, and black curve painted on don't mix with the framed windows and silversides.

Looks aside, does this mean MCI actually has a competitive product to Prevost's X3-45 now? That D4500CT demonstrator was for private operators, since it had the lavatory, TVs, and enclosed parcel racks. That particular unit was reportedly delivered to Peter Pan. In addition to LED headlights and the new interior, the D4500CT now has a DD13 engine and IFS. Still, I can see two disadvantages compared to the X3-45: a shorter wheelbase and smaller fuel tank. As for advantages, I see the higher driver's seat and lower window sill.


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## jebr

I don't remember what the number was. I thought I had saved it, but I didn't.

The seats (and the interior) looked something like this:






I sat a couple rows behind the handicapped area, about where the vent is.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So it was a DL3? At least one Blue G (#7027) also has those seats, as does some of the oldest X3-45s, but the X3-45s with those seats have cloth covers. The seats you sat in probably didn't have cloth clovers, right?

Most likely you were riding a DL3. Those things are definitely much better than the D4505s. Some have suffered from deferred maintenance, littering, and vandalism, but they're always comfortable.

I also found some blog posts on Greyhound:

http://bloggreyhound.com/beautiful-banff-a-journey-to-and-around-the-city-2/

http://bloggreyhound.com/proof-that-nothing-beats-the-window-seat/.

Not sure whether the first post is a GLI- or GLC-original DL3, which would dictate the interior, but the bus in the second blog post appears to have been #1150, which a GLC original, even though the interior shots show Patriot PT seats, which were not ordered by GLC. So either #1150 got Patriot PTs during the rebuild, or the interior shots are not from #1150.

Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover. DL3s don't have vents there (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg).


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## mightyjoe1201

I may have asked thus before, but how long ago did GLI start buying the x3-45?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Their first batch was in 2008. Those had cloth velour Patriot PT seats, similar to the ones in the DL3. Then, in 2009, they switched to the Painful Premier. Some of the 2008 X3-45s have been transferred to GLC Eastern Canada. GLC has never bought X3-45s.

Railiner, do Adirondack's pre-2009 seats have center armrests? Those are National Seating, if I identified correctly from pictures. American Seating always has a recline button in the armrest.

Even though the LED headlights are now standard, MCI still offers the traditional D4500CL: http://mtnride.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/20150611_111853-Bustang-1024x576.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

mightyjoe1201 said:


> I may have asked thus before, but how long ago did GLI start buying the x3-45?


First X3-45 coaches were purchased in 2008.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. I was thinking back to the trip I took from tomah, WI to boonville, MO after getting fired from one co and going to the next. It was in 2010 and I'm pretty sure now that it was a brand new x3-45. I do remember the driver, after he calmed down from me screaming at him for being about 4 hours late saying it was a brand new bus th st was only in its second run.


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## jebr

My bus had leather seats, not cloth.


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## rickycourtney

I feel like that switch to LED's was based on the demands of transit operators. Those lights use the industry standard LED light units.

New Flyer has been using these lights on their coaches for the past 10 years... Prevost has been using them for at least 7 years (all of Greyhound's X3-45 coaches have LED headlights)... MCI is just now catching up.

I think that's pretty well reflects my feelings on the D4500/D4505... it's playing catch up with the X3-45 and the J4500... based on the demands of the only customers that seem to matter... large transit agencies.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover. DL3s don't have vents there (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg).


Actually, you could call those slits, vents......that is the only covered part of the parcel rack, besides the one on the opposite side, and behind them are the blower's that ducts ambient air to the individual vents above each seat.

*

Adirondack's pre-2009 seats did not have center armrests....although, I'm not sure about our two 2006 Van Hools....need to take another look at them....


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## rickycourtney

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Thanks. I was thinking back to the trip I took from tomah, WI to boonville, MO after getting fired from one co and going to the next. It was in 2010 and I'm pretty sure now that it was a brand new x3-45. I do remember the driver, after he calmed down from me screaming at him for being about 4 hours late saying it was a brand new bus th st was only in its second run.


Greyhound put 190 X3-45 coaches on the road between 2008 and 2009, 90 between 2012 and 2013 and another 55 in 2014.

You might have caught one of the last buses delivered in the first batch.


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## mightyjoe1201

That a possible. It would have been July or August of 2010 when I took that trip. The greyhound part a were the moat comfortable part a too


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Edit: BTW, those aren't vents. Those are just slits on a parcel rack cover.


I'm reasonably sure that there's a part of the HVAC system behind those vents. It's not a regular cover over a parcel rack.


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## Swadian Hardcore

All the overhead bins are completely empty. See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c.

There's nothing behind those slits, so how are they vents? I'm talking about the slits on the side of the parcel rack, not the ambient vents on the bottom of them.

The official sources are incorrect. According to Texas DMV, Greyhound got 19 X3-45s in 2008, 102 X3-45s in 2009. So Greyhound couldn't have had 190 X3-45s before 2011, unless one counts BoltBus. They got at least 35 more in 2011, though the model years get mixed up with build years from there on out. Currently, Greyhound X3-45 numbers are #86001-86299 and #86650-86689. Plus special units #60401-60420, Americanos units #60580-60593, and BoltBus units #801-870.

BoltBus never got any X3-45s after 2009.

Since Adirondack's old National seats don't have center armrests, I'll assume no Nationals have center armrests.

So basically, the D4500CL/CT is still worse than the X3-45, H3-45, and J4500. And that seems to be confirmed by this video, showing a rattling new D4500CL for Bustang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBeGewp0SVA.

You can hear the rattling in the background, and man, does that Cummins sound ugly! Same rattling in Houston's new D4500CTHs, plus jerking to boot.


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## railiner

GLI chooses not to cover their parcel racks. But there is a cover in that one spot on each side. The reason for it is to cover the centrifugal blower, that draws ambient air thru those slits, and then ducts them to the individual vents over each seat. The older GLC shown, as well as 'J' models, have those blowers in that spot, but they did not have the slits to aid in circulation....


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## Swadian Hardcore

That doesn't make sense. The GLC is a 2000 102DL3. The GLI is also a 2000 102DL3. So why does one has slits and the other doesn't? Also, why are the slits on the sides on the parcel racks, rather than the bottom, where the blowers are?

And then why does that 1998 DL3 in the video have no visible centrifugal blower and all the parcel racks are empty and uncovered? Is the centrifugal blower placed where the luggage would usually go (on top of the parcel rack) or is it in between the layers of the parcel rack?


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> mightyjoe1201 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may have asked thus before, but how long ago did GLI start buying the x3-45?
> 
> 
> 
> First X3-45 coaches were purchased in 2008.
Click to expand...

Anyone know when GLC acquired their first XLII's? (They were used, I believe they came from Orleans Express, or perhaps Hotard....not really sure, but they were painted a powder blue color....back when we pooled with GLC, they sometimes came down from Toronto....


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## railiner

I 'googled' the answer....1293,94,and 95 were ex Indian Trails acquired in 2006, I believe...

http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/xlii/ghc1293left.jpg


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> GLI chooses not to cover their parcel racks. But there is a cover in that one spot on each side. The reason for it is to cover the centrifugal blower, that draws ambient air thru those slits, and then ducts them to the individual vents over each seat. The older GLC shown, as well as 'J' models, have those blowers in that spot, but they did not have the slits to aid in circulation....


Which is really a silly design. I get that it's a simple design... but it would be a far better experience for passengers to have air chilled by the AC system delivered via the air vents. That way passengers can either open or close the vents based on their comfort.

I should mention that the numbers listed are the number of coaches Greyhound purchased, including coaches that run for subsidiaries including BoltBus.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> That doesn't make sense. The GLC is a 2000 102DL3. The GLI is also a 2000 102DL3. So why does one has slits and the other doesn't? Also, why are the slits on the sides on the parcel racks, rather than the bottom, where the blowers are?
> 
> And then why does that 1998 DL3 in the video have no visible centrifugal blower and all the parcel racks are empty and uncovered? Is the centrifugal blower placed where the luggage would usually go (on top of the parcel rack) or is it in between the layers of the parcel rack?


Design changes?No clue on the other part, you'll have to research that yourself.

I think you're too concerned with ranking things. Suffice it to say, I think generally Prevost makes a better bus than MCI, but MCI buses have some nice features. Each bus has its benefits and drawbacks. The best bus is the one that works best for each operator and for the type of work they do.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm ranking intercity buses, if that is what you mean by "work". In that case, it's pretty simple. The D4500CT is inferior to both the H3-45 and X3-45 for intercity use. Sure, it's got the higher driver's seat and the lower window sill. But, overall, it's still worse than the H3-45 and X3-45.

I like a relaxing, daytime bus ride. Those are my favorite bus rides and those are the reason why I'd rather ride a bus than drive. When I drive, I can't relax, I have to pay attention. I like enjoying the scenery and I like the big windows and the splendid lines-of-sight offered by a DL3's low window sills. I'd love if the DL3 was still in production. That low window sill make a big difference to me, because cars never have that low of a window sill. That's just me. To each his own.

As for the vents, I'm going to have to peek inside them the next time I ride a Greyhound DL3. Still, if you go to 7:42 in that DL3 video I posted, you'll see that particular DL3 has completely empty, open parcel racks. No vents, no slits, no covers, just luggage space.


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## railiner

The bus in the video did have a small section of the parcel rack (immediately behind the wheelchair door area) covered by a solid panel. The blower could have been there. Not sure about the driver's side, unless it was behind the door covering the forward most part of the rack. The older model buses may not have had the overhead blower....that was an optional extra.

The blower is located on top of the parcel rack. The individual adjustable vents over each seat do not have their own fans. The blower feeds a duct that brings moving air to each seat, to be controlled by the passenger as desired. Both MCI and Prevost use a similar system....one blower on each side blowing ambient air. The VanHool is different,

The overhead vents do blow air-conditioned air to each seat vent thru an overhead duct. The MCI and Prevost use the floor duct to direct A/C and heated air out thru the vents at the bottom of the side windows. The VanHool does not have a duct there. The floor 'duct' on the VanHool is actually a 'baseboard radiator', that carries hot water to help heat the coach in the winter.

*

Getting back to the center armrests....I got a chance to check out 72063 today, a 2006 CO2045....its proprietary VanHool seats do have a fold down center armrest....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm really confused about the blower on the DL3. I thought what happened is that the DL3 HVAC pumps air through the floor duct and the central air duct in between the 4th and 5th side windows to the parcel racks, where the air travels through the layers of the parcel racks to the individual blowers over the passengers. I thought the tiny vents in the parcel rack railing also received air through this process.

If the HVAC was pumping air to the racks, why would the racks themselves need a blower? And if they do have a blower, wouldn't the blower be inside the parcel rack itself? In that case, why would the vents be over on the inboard sides?

I'm assuming the blower being "on top" of the parcel rack means it is where the luggage would be. Is this true?

But then how come all DL3s have individual vents over the passengers, but not all of them have the grille thing covering that section of the parcel rack?

If the small section behind the lift position was enough to carry the blowers, why would some DL3s have a huge section of the racks covered off? How big are the blowers, anyway?


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## rickycourtney

I just don't get why the blowers suck in the ambient air from the roof and blows it back at passengers through their vents in the service unit. After all heat rises so in summer you have hot air being blown back ar passengers.

Also while delivering cold air via the Windows likely keeps them less foggy... it forces all passengers to endure the cold air despite their comfort level.

It would seemingly make more since to deliver the cold air from the AC system to the overhead vents and allow passengers to adjust based on personal comfort.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I must disagree about the window air vents. I much prefer them over any overhead vents and I rarely open or use the overhead blowers because I don't like any air blowing at me from above. To me, the window air vents are the best way of getting air from the HVAC to the interior of the bus. Floor air vents get dirty too easily.

In fact, one reason I never ride Van Hools is because they only blow air from above and lack window vents.

I do agree that taking air from the roof and blowing it back is foolish. I'm guessing they actually don't take air from the roof, but distribute air that had been pumped to the parcel racks by the HVAC.


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## railiner

You raise some good questions....I was not aware there was a 'central duct' as you mentioned that carries air from the floor duct up to the parcel rack....perhaps that was an earlier DL-3 design. I really don't know...

The centrifugal blower is about a foot and a half long, and about 8 or 10 inches in diameter, IIRC. It rests behind those grilled doors where bags normally go. As far as I know, they blow strictly ambient air, and receive no air from the coach HVAC system


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## railiner

Think of the overseat vents as simply having a ceiling fan circulating the air...than perhaps it seems more sensible....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I understand the point of the ceiling fans, but I still can't make sense of why so many DL3s do not appear to have a centrifugal blower. In the vid I linked, you said the blower could have been in that little section of the parcel racks behind the wheelchair lift. But if it's 1.5 feet long, there's no way such a large cylindrical object could fit in such a small space. And then there's the DL3s that have solid parcel rack covers and no vents. In those, it would be useless to have a centrifugal blower, since it would simply be circulating air around the parcel rack. So those most likely don't have a blower, either.

Why then, do all DL3s have individual overhead vents (blowers) over the passengers?

Well, what I think is that there's a duct going from the HVAC below the floor to the parcel racks. And that duct is in the middle of the bus, right above the HVAC. You know how DL3s have 8 windows per side? The duct appears to be in the support right in the middle, between the 4th and 5th windows.

Here's a picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/koyah7d/6794537825/sizes/l.

Enlarged version: https://www.flickr.com/photos/koyah7d/6794537825/sizes/o/.

See how the middle support is thicker than the others and takes a turn at the top to meet the parcel rack? All DL3s have that. If that is an air duct, I again find GLC smarter in their choices, since the centrifugal blower is essentially a waste if the HVAC is already pumping air to the parcel racks.


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## mightyjoe1201

You may not necessarily are the blower, Swadian. It could be next to the outside wall. The centrifugal blower would assist the hvac to keep the air moving. The very well my be a hvac duct where u say but a blown can.come in useful to keep air moving so that it's the same pressure throughout the system. Does that help at all?


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## Swadian Hardcore

OK, you've got a point there. Still, the blower section of the parcel racks is completely sealed off from the rest, so you still can't keep pressure even. You're only circulating air within the parcel racks. So the air pressure only holds up inside the parcel racks and the air only comes out when a passenger opens the personal overhead vent.

While we're on the topic of interior air, why doesn't Greyhound open the windows of the D4505s when they are parked in the Ready Lot to release some of those foul odors? One reason Adirondack D4505s might not smell so bad, other than toilet maintenance, is that they possibly air out the bus regularly.


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## mightyjoe1201

There's probably a duct or hole we can't see to let air pass thru. At least the vents for the passengers are adjustable. I'd rather not have air that's to I warm or too cold blowing me in the face.

That's probably not a bad idea with buses. Not only would it air the bus out it would give maintenance a chance to be sure the Windows will open idle there's ever an emergency.


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## Swadian Hardcore

We appear to be talking about the same duct right here. I concur that air blowing in your face is very uncomfortable. If I try to kick back and relax, and there's air blowing in my face from above, you see the problem. Window air vents aren't so bad unless you start leaning on the window.

And that's why I hate the jerking of some of the New D's. You could doze off and your head could bounce against the window. Fall asleep there and you have air blowing in your face while you're sleeping. Very uncomfortable. This problem doesn't occur if the bus doesn't jerk.

I dug up an old driver post that said the New D's jerk because they have taller air bellows and their steering wheels are much stiffer than the DL3. DL3s are reportedly highly sensitive to control inputs and have extremely accurate gauges, unlike Van Hools and Dinas.

It seemed so bad in the D4505s that I was tempted to ask the driver if I could pop open the window at rest stops. I feared I would sound stupid and didn't ask. Perhaps it is against company policy.


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## railiner

I'm going to take a closer look at the DL-3 next chance I get..... While the GLC overhead doors didn't have those slots like the newer buses do, they are by no means "air-tight"....there are no seals around the door edges, and there would be no problem drawing in air for the blower, if so equipped....


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## railiner

Popping open the side emergency windows is a "no-no". Doing so will sound an alarm on some coaches, among other reasons not to. If emergency ventilation is required, popping open the roof hatches is a better idea. Besides, it will not solve an odor problem. That problem is best solved "at the source"....the coach HVAC will ventilate the coach just as well as opening a window, anyway, unless it is set at 'recirculate', (which should only be used in extreme climatic conditions).


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## Swadian Hardcore

It'll sound an alarm? Lamer's does pop open their windows to air out the bus: https://www.flickr.com/photos/formerwmdriver/6738874801/sizes/l. Perhaps it's OK in some bus models and not OK in others? 

Would it be OK if the bus engine was turned off?

Looks like a Greyhound driver tricked me again. He said, "We are breathing in recirculated air."

So does that mean D4505s always run on Recirculate or is the driver just stupid and thinks it's recirculating when it isn't? Or perhaps he doesn't know much about buses and put the bus on Recirculate even though there was no adverse weather conditions.

Frankly, a lot of Greyhound drivers these days seem to know very little about the buses they drive. Some can't distinguish between a D4500 and a D4505, and use the terms interchangeably. Some can't distinguish between a Detroit- and a Cummins-powered D4505. Some don't know the clogged toilets cause foul odors. Some have never ridden in the passenger seats and have no clue the seats are painful (they just "deny-till-they-die").


----------



## railiner

Okay...I checked out a GLI DL-3 at The Port today. And I learned something new.....behind those slotted doors are auxiliary air conditioner's! The mullion between the windows that has a section curving into that overhead compartment does not contain an air duct, but rather freon and electrical lines from the main HVAC down below.

So the overhead vents on DL-3's are not simply blowing ambient air, but actually conditioned air. There is a fan inside also, to send the air thru a duct at the back of the rack leading to all of the overhead individual vents.

Live and learn.....


----------



## railiner

Now I'll have to take another look at our 'J's, and our Prevost's....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the info! I stand corrected. So the GLI DL3s have extra air conditioners and the GLC ones don't. I'm surprised the GLC examples don't have more powerful HVAC since they operate in more extreme weather conditions. Actually, I looked up some pictures and found out that the older GLC DL3s with the grey winged National seats have the auxiliary HVAC and the newer ones with the blue winged FAINSA Brasil VIP don't.

GLC 1997 DL3 interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15786926422/sizes/l. 
GLC 2000 DL3 interior: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg. 

Speaking of extra features, didn't some of Greyhound's DL3s have auxiliary fuel tanks? How much capacity would those have?

Also, since Adirondack seems to be doing well, why don't they expand?


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks for the info! I stand corrected. So the GLI DL3s have extra air conditioners and the GLC ones don't. I'm surprised the GLC examples don't have more powerful HVAC since they operate in more extreme weather conditions. Actually, I looked up some pictures and found out that the older GLC DL3s with the grey winged National seats have the auxiliary HVAC and the newer ones with the blue winged FAINSA Brasil VIP don't.
> 
> GLC 1997 DL3 interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15786926422/sizes/l.
> 
> GLC 2000 DL3 interior: http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/d/gry_1119int.jpg.


I believe you are mistaken.....look again at the second photo....see those unique deeper mullions with the flared top leading into an overhead compartment? While there are no slots in the panel, I believe the A/C unit is inside those compartments.....

*

As far as recirculation....there is a control button to either recirculate most of the inside air back into the HVAC, or admit more outside air. When climatic conditions are extreme, like frigid below zero winters, or hot desert summers, or passing thru a tunnel or other smoky condition, it is beneficial to recirculate the air. Other times, it is healthier to admit more fresh outside air. There is always a certain percentage of recirculated or outside air (not sure of the amount) admitted regardless of the setting.....


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## railiner

The fuel tanks capacity varies from time to time....check the MCI spec sheets.

As for ADT expanding....there doesn't seem to be any current plans, at least that I am aware of....our current pooling agreement with GLI places certain limitations on us in that regard...Our last route expansion were local routes that GL wished to discontinue...such as Syracuse to Canton, and Albany to Binghamton. We did add a few short extension's a few years ago, such as Buffalo to Niagara Falls, NY....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I see what you're talking about. So I went back and looked at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c. It's got the mullion that should be connected to the HVAC, but there is clearly no auxiliary HVAC in the parcel racks. Maybe DL3s have that thick mullion regardless of whether they have auxiliary HVAC.

So the driver was right that we were breathing in recirculated air, but even with some outside air coming in, is there a way for the toilet odor to be ejected? What Greyhound is doing right now isn't getting rid of the odor and opening the windows might not be OK even when the engine is off.

Unfortunately, I have not found anything on the fuel capacity of a auxiliary-fuel-tank-equipped DL3.

Is GLI blocking off ADI's expansion with the pool agreement? ADI cannot expand even if their expansion doesn't compete with GLI?

Saw GLI's New York City-Miami route on BusTracker and was wondering if 301 would be a viable way of bypassing Washington.


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## rickycourtney

See? I knew there was some kind of HVAC equipment behind that vented cover.

I'm glad to hear that it's actually cooling the air and not just blowing it around. I frequently feel way too warm on buses (and planes too). I usually dress in layers as I travel, but it's not always enough.

The best way to ensure that the toilet smells aren't recirculated is to create negative pressure in the restroom. In other words create a situation where the air is sucked out of that space and sent outside. What would also happen is that air would be sucked from the rest of the coach into the restroom. I think they try to create a situation where the restroom is inherently a negative pressure space... but it sounds like it's not happening 100% of the time. Maybe a small blower could be installed to help boost the air flow.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I see what you're talking about. So I went back and looked at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C81uYEC-x9c. It's got the mullion that should be connected to the HVAC, but there is clearly no auxiliary HVAC in the parcel racks. Maybe DL3s have that thick mullion regardless of whether they have auxiliary HVAC.
> 
> So the driver was right that we were breathing in recirculated air, but even with some outside air coming in, is there a way for the toilet odor to be ejected? What Greyhound is doing right now isn't getting rid of the odor and opening the windows might not be OK even when the engine is off.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have not found anything on the fuel capacity of a auxiliary-fuel-tank-equipped DL3.
> 
> Is GLI blocking off ADI's expansion with the pool agreement? ADI cannot expand even if their expansion doesn't compete with GLI?
> 
> Saw GLI's New York City-Miami route on BusTracker and was wondering if 301 would be a viable way of bypassing Washington.


It's kind of hard to see how it's set up from that video.but the 102D3's had an overhead blower compartment near the front....that DL-3 seems to have one there also, above the entrance door. Not sure if there is one behind that overhead door on the driver's side or not....would have to get inside the actual coach to know for sure....

The Prevost's have a lav exhaust fan that keeps the lav air refreshed (as long as it's working, sometimes they quit)....I can't say for sure, but the MCI should have something similar.

I don't believe current MCI's offer an auxiliary fuel tank in their specs, but if you look at earlier models like the MC7, I believe standard capacity was around 144 gallons, with an optional 35 gallon tank available...total 179... The current ones say 192 gallons standard, IIRC. Prevost H3's have 235 gallon tanks.

I did some Googleing, and came up with several sources you might check out. Here is one link.... http://busconversion101.com/mci_specifications.htm#MCI®D SERIES COACH

Obviously, we would not want to compete with our pool partner. I am not privy to the terms of our agreement. We have had the opportunity to expand in certain area's, (Vermont comes to mind, when GL effectively pulled out of much of there), but our principal did not do so. As it stands, we can barely cover what we already have, as far as driver resources......

I don't think I would take 301....too many slow sections and major toll bridges to cross.

But it is interesting if I just wanted to tour and see something different from I-95.

Greyhound used to operate over portions of it on a Baltimore to Newport News route a long time ago....

Found this interesting website on it....brings back memories of when I was a teenager driving with my family to Florida in the early sixties. We used 301 south of Richmond before I-95 was built....http://www.route301.org/#!home/mainPage


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## Swadian Hardcore

The video is actually a 102DL3, not a 102D3. Don't know the arrangement in the D3.

The D4505 do have a blower in the lavatory, but for some reason, it appears to suck the lavatory air out into the rest of the bus. On many occasions, I found the lavatory to be the cleanest and least smelly part of the D4505. Other possibilities could be that Greyhound focuses on cleaning the lavatory and forgets everything else, or maybe the lack of vinyl and carpet in the lavatory.

I'll have to ask around to try and find out the auxiliary fuel tank capacity.

So it's the lack of drivers that strains ADI's expansion more than the pool agreement? Would a simple interline agreement be better?

Since 301 is apparently problematic, what would be the quickest way from New York City to Miami? Greyhound takes a full 29:50 to run the 1011 all the way.


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## rickycourtney

If you have a fan that's pushing outside air *into* the lavatory, there's also the chance of pushing lavatory smells out into the cabin. That's why the fan needs to pull the air *out* of the lavatory.

Another thing that could help is moving to better designed flush toilet. The trick would be moving beyond the porta-potty with recirculating blue water and move to a design like an RV toilet where you have separate clean water and black water storage tanks. Vonlane uses a setup like this. Another benefit to that design is that it would also allow for a real sink with running water and a water spigot for passengers to get a cup of water or refill a water bottle en route. The downside is that it's more complicated and might take longer to service.


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## railiner

The lav exhaust fan on the Prevost H3 works as you describe....it is mounted under the lav floor, accessible in the engine compartment. It is a small, but powerful centrifugal type blower that draws air from a mesh grille in the fiberglas just beneath the front of the toilet. It does create a slight negative pressure, and air from the coach is drawn in thru the gap at the bottom of the lav door. If the blower quits for some reason, like a blown fuse, the restroom gets unbearably warm inside, besides not exhausting the odors.

I think for a line bus, a plain non-flushing toilet works out much better. The maintenance required for a flushing toilet is extensive, if done properly....The toilet must be periodically taken apart and pressure-steam cleaned to clear the water jets of tiny bits of toilet paper that get clogged inside, and result in bacterial odors, that even dumping the toilet will not eliminate. And the baffle plate always seems to have 'deposits' stuck on them that even repeated flushing will not clear away...

Having potable water on tap is another maintenance headache. The Purell sanitizer is a better solution for a line bus, and no potential freeze up problems. If you want to provide drinking water, I like C&J's way better....they have a 'fridge' full of help-yourself bottled water.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So it's the lack of drivers that strains ADI's expansion more than the pool agreement? Would a simple interline agreement be better?


The main reason for not expanding, is the owner of the company does not seem to want to....I have never had the opportunity to discuss the matter with him, so can't say for certain....

If he wanted to, I'm sure we could eventually recruit the necessary help. Our agreement with Greyhound is modeled after other ones, like the ones Greyhound had with Capital Motor Lines/Colonial Trailways, and Peter Pan. It is a revenue-sharing operation, where we earn a pro-rated proportion of the total revenue earned on the routes covered by the agreement...in a sense, operating as if we were a merged company, as far as passenger's could tell. We take it a step beyond the Peter Pan model, in that we drive each other's buses...on some trips from Boston to Cleveland, for example, ADT drives the bus from Albany to Syracuse, or NYT drives it from Syracuse to Buffalo. The GL driver's run it from Boston to Albany, and from Buffalo to Cleveland. Or on another example, a GL driver will drive a TNY bus on the entire trip from Rochester to NYC.....The mileages are totaled and prorated over a certain period. Peter Pan and GL do not operate each other's buses...they just alternate running the schedules....

I would imagine we have a 'non-competition' clause in our agreement, but as I mentioned, I am not privy to that information. Member's of the Trailways association always had that agreement among their members....


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Since 301 is apparently problematic, what would be the quickest way from New York City to Miami? Greyhound takes a full 29:50 to run the 1011 all the way.


Back in the mid-nineties, Greyhound ran some really fast trips on I-95 from New York City to Miami....

They left NYC, made a highway reststop in Maryland, then stopped in Richmond, Fayetteville, Savannah, Jacksonville, Fort Pierce, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami....

IIRC, the fastest trip including rest and station stops was about 25 hours....


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## railiner

railiner said:


> Now I'll have to take another look at our 'J's, and our Prevost's....


I did check out a 'J' today, and sure enough, they have a similar setup to the DL-3....A deeper mullion carrying refrigerant and power lines to an auxiliary A/C unit on each side...

One more to check out next week.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Seems like the H3-45 has a very effective lavatory exhaust fan. Does the X3-45 have a similar fan? They certainly don't smell nearly as bad as the D4505. The DL3s and G4500s with straight dumps also don't have the odor. Even if their fan breaks, just keep the toilet lid on and there probably won't be an odor.

Even with a better flushing toilet design, I still think Greyhound would defer maintenance and let it clog up, then rot inside. Perhaps a compressed-air flushing toilet, such as those on airliners, would work better. Or maybe something like the bio toilet on JAL's 787s. All are better than the D4505 toilet. Straight dumps actually aren't bad at all and are perfectly sanitary and useable if it's simply cleaned properly.

Since many buses these days lack the middle seat in the rear, that position could be perfect for a drinking water tank. Drinking water deliveries en-masse are very cheap anyways.

I can't understand why there would be a non-competition clause when GLI is still technically competing with ADI and PPP. I know that, in the case of PPP, I'd always take them over Greyhound as they have more comfortable seats. Perhaps the non-competition clause allows running the same routes, but only on alternating schedules.

What's the difference between an interline agreement and a pool agreement? I understand they are something along the lines of a codeshare and a JV, respectively.

Still, ADI could have expanded all the way to Maine after Greyhound route cuts throughout VT/NH/ME.

Greyhound's current New York City-Miami only makes two more stops than your example, at Raleigh and Orlando, but takes 5 hours longer.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I can't understand why there would be a non-competition clause when GLI is still technically competing with ADI and PPP. I know that, in the case of PPP, I'd always take them over Greyhound as they have more comfortable seats. Perhaps the non-competition clause allows running the same routes, but only on alternating schedules.
> 
> What's the difference between an interline agreement and a pool agreement? I understand they are something along the lines of a codeshare and a JV, respectively.
> 
> Still, ADI could have expanded all the way to Maine after Greyhound route cuts throughout VT/NH/ME.


Greyhound is not competing with ADT, or PPB...and haven't been for a long time....since the revenue sharing or pooling agreement went into effect. Greyhound's competition now is Stagecoach owned companies (Coach USA/Canada and Megabus), as well as the Chinatown, and other cut-rate operators.

Pooling means operating jointly....sharing revenue, shedule's, equipment, etc....

An interline agreement is the basic system of selling beyond one's own routes....Adirondack and Peter Pan have interline agreements,(but not pooling), as do virtually the entire network of "legacy" bus carrier's, members of the National Bus Traffic Association, This organization provides a means of "reclaiming revenue when honoring a ticket sold by another carrier. It is similar to the airlines "ARC" ticketing (Amtrak fought for, and eventually was allowed into that traffic association, also). That allowed any travel agent that sold airline tickets to begin selling Amtrak tickets.

Of course, that whole system is more or less obsolete, with the advent of self 'e'-ticketing online....

So....while you may prefer riding PPB over GLI on say, a New York to Boston trip, the reality of it is, that GLI will get a share of your fare, regardless.... 

So now,,,,if you think you have that all figured out...I will throw you a curveball....PHK is not in the pool with ADT and GLI. So if you ride the slow scenic PHK bus from NYC to Utica via Cooperstown, GLI and ADTdo not share in that. And then there is Bonanza, (BZ), subsidiary of Peter Pan...They also run New York to Hartford, as do PPB and GLI. They also are not in the pool with PPB and GLI. They run a slightly different route (via Danbury and Waterbury rather than New Haven). Similarly, BZ operates New York to Boston via Providence. Again not in the pool.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Greyhound's current New York City-Miami only makes two more stops than your example, at Raleigh and Orlando, but takes 5 hours longer.


Hmmm....perhaps it was 27 hours, not 25....just trying to recall off the top of my head.....

Taking I-95 direct bypassing Raleigh and Orlando, would account for an hour and a half....and shorter servicing stops than what 1011 does could also save a couple of hours.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So what if Peter Pan wasn't pooling with Greyhound, and was simply interlining as part of the NBTA while running over certain Greyhound routes? Would Greyhound attack Peter Pan as a competitor would, or would they continue to cooperate since they are interlining through the NBTA?

Is there potential competition within the NBTA, or are they an alliance even without pooling and sharing revenue?

Do NBTA members have a free hand in expansion? It appears that pooling bus lines have major restrictions on expansion. I'm getting that Peter Pan would not be able to expand to Bangor and Adirondack would not be able to expand into Boston.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> So what if Peter Pan wasn't pooling with Greyhound, and was simply interlining as part of the NBTA while running over certain Greyhound routes? Would Greyhound attack Peter Pan as a competitor would, or would they continue to cooperate since they are interlining through the NBTA?
> 
> Is there potential competition within the NBTA, or are they an alliance even without pooling and sharing revenue?
> 
> Do NBTA members have a free hand in expansion? It appears that pooling bus lines have major restrictions on expansion. I'm getting that Peter Pan would not be able to expand to Bangor and Adirondack would not be able to expand into Boston.


Before Greyhound and Peter Pan entered their current agreement, they were locked in a fierce fare war....walk-up fares from New York to Washington got as low as $5!

Remember....'interlining' does not mean cooperating on competitive routes...it is simply an accounting tool for collecting revenue when carrying a passenger on a ticket sold by another carrier. Adirondack will sell an 'interline' ticket from Kingston to Washington. When Greyhound or Peter Pan carries the passenger from New York to Washington, they will send the collected Adirondack ticket to Adirondack's accounting office to 'reclaim' their portion of the fare collected in Kingston. That is all there is to it.

No pooling or other revenue sharing.

Being a member of the traffic association means that you will agree to repay on demand the tickets you sold that another carrier provided the ride for. Usually the selling carrier will earn a modest commission, and make it more convenient for the passenger to buy their entire trip at one point of sale. The traffic association also covers bus package express shipped interline. Not all carrier's belong to the association, and sometimes will only interline with certain members, not all. This was how it all got started in the 1920's and '30's, but deregulation and online ticketing has changed a lot of the reason for the traffic association. They also used to act as agents for member carrier's by publishing complicated tariffs with the former Interstate Commerce Commission. That ended with deregulation....


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## Swadian Hardcore

What if it's indirect competition? Let's say Jefferson extended their Minneapolis-Missoula route to Seattle. Greyhound already runs Seattle-Missoula. Would Greyhound allow Jefferson to use its Seattle terminal, or would Greyhound stop cooperating with Jefferson? Clearly, Greyhound can't interline with Jefferson if they don't let them use their terminals and Jefferson would be effectively kicked out of the NBTA.

Revenue sharing seems like a bad idea because it allows one company to slack while the other company gets less profit than they deserve. Case in point: Greyhound being less comfortable than Peter Pan but they get equal revenue even if passengers explicitly boycott Greyhound.


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## railiner

Let me direct your attention please, to some of the highlighted downloads available at the ABA - NBTA website: http://bustraffic.org/NIBD_TOC.aspx

Perhaps these will give you a better understanding of what the rules are....note particularly what it says about getting DOT - STB approval for pooling....

To answer your questions above....why would Jefferson compete with Greyhound, when they have always been cooperating? If Greyhound did not want to run from Seattle to Missoula, then I suppose they would encourage JL to take it over, as they have done elsewhere....

As to allowing another carrier to use their terminal....if it is a 'friendly' carrier, that has a positive relationship with GL, they would always allow them to use it. If it is an archrival, then perhaps not. But even there they must be careful....case in point, the infamous Pacific Trailways (Mount Hood Stages) debacle....

One line does not have the power to "kick out" another line from the NBTA. The NBTA only has that power, based on adherence to NBTA policies.

As to whether revenue sharing is a good idea or not....well like many things, it has its pro's and con's.....as we can all see...

but to some, its the bottom line (pun intended), that decides that....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Jefferson wouldn't be wanting to compete with Greyhound, but simply to expand and add one of their own frequencies to the route. They are still friendly carriers, just two friendly carriers operating the same route, similar to JAL and AA both operating DFW-NRT in the near future. AFAIK, JAL and AA do not pool with each other.

Since NBTA carriers interline with each other, I assume that they are obviously friendly carriers and would naturally use each other's terminals. I highly doubt archrivals would be interlining with each other in the first place, so they wouldn't both be in the NBTA.

I assume that the only way for Jefferson to become Greyhound's competitor is to leave the NBTA. And I doubt expansion is a violation of the NBTA's policies, so Greyhound can't kick out Jefferson, and so they will still cooperate even if Jefferson expands on a route Greyhound already operates.


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## railiner

Did you read the NBTA reference I suggested?

I think you're missing the point....Any bus carrier can be a member of the NBTA, whether 'friendly' or competitive with others. Case in point....Greyhound and members of the National Trailways Bus System were fierce competitors, until eventually Greyhound purchased Continental Trailways, and briefly became a member of the Trailways association.

All that time that they competed, they were still members of the NBTA. Nothing in the NBTA's rules precludes competition between member carrier's....

On the other hand...members of the Trailways association are not permitted to compete with fellow members. I think you may be confusing the two organization's....they have entirely different purposes...

Since the remaining Trailways carrier's have mostly entered into a pool agreement with Greyhound, the only competitor's left in the NBTA that compete with Greyhound are some Coach USA legacy carrier's that still interline, like Short Line (Hudson Transit Lines). And even Short Line competes only in a few places that they both serve albeit over slightly different routes....for example....GLI New York-Scranton-Binghamton-Whitney Point-Ithaca and HTL New York-Middletown-Binghamton-Owego-Ithaca....

As far as I know, Megabus is not an NBTA member (I could be wrong), but irregardless, GL would never 'interline' with them, nor permit them to use a GL terminal, even if they wanted to, which is not likely.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.

OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.

My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?


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## mightyjoe1201

Railiner, I'm kind of confused a bit with some of what you guys a talking about. When carriers pool, does that me am they pool all resources or just ticketing and routes? I remember a bus trip I was on to get to one of the trucking jobs I had and remember hearing a trailways driver saying he was jealous cause one of his fellow drivers had a greyhound bus rather then a trailways bus.


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## rickycourtney

Let me see both if I've got it right and if I can better simplify this.

Let's take an imaginary part of the country.
There are two big cities, Megalopolis, Centerville and one small city, Littleville.
There are three bus companies in that region, Greyhound, Circle Line and Pine Line. All three are NBTA members.
Greyhound runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
Circle Line also runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
Pine Line runs 2 daily round trips between Centerville and Littleville.


*Example #1 (Pool)*
Greyhound and Circle Line team up to operate a pool between Megalopolis and Centerville. Greyhound gets 55 percent of the profits and Circle Line gets 45 percent. Passengers benefit because they now have 6 daily round trips to choose from. Greyhound benefits because they're getting they're getting a cut of every fare between the two cities. Circle Line benefits because of Greyhound's better marketing and nationwide ticketing, their buses are now running with many more passengers.

*Example #2 (Interline)*
A passenger buys a ticket in Megalopolis for Littleville at the Greyhound ticket office. That passenger boards a Greyhound bus and rides to Centerville. At Centerville he catches a Pine Line bus to Littleville. Pine Line then submits to Greyhound for payment of the ticket price, less a standard agent fee (say $5). The passenger benefits because they were able to purchase the ticket from one agent (Greyhound) and get to travel all the way to their destination. Greyhound benefits because they're $5 from Pine Line for a trip they didn't provide. Pine Line benefits because they got a passenger who may have picked a different transportation method if they had to be ticketed twice. Circle Line also benefits because they get 45 percent of the profits for the Megalopolis-Centerville portion of the trip.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.
> 
> OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.
> 
> My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?


Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.
> 
> OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.
> 
> My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?
> 
> 
> 
> Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?
Click to expand...

If I were Greyhound, I wouldn't be deferring maintenance and using D4505s and Painful Premiers. I also wouldn't let drivers run amok with intentional delays. So, I'm not in the best position to predict what Greyhound would do. But if I were Greyhound in this case, I'd let Jefferson expand to Seattle and use the extra frequency to help both of us. Jefferson would need to offer Greyhound tickets and market the route, but would not be forced to pool with Greyhound.


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Railiner, I'm kind of confused a bit with some of what you guys a talking about. When carriers pool, does that me am they pool all resources or just ticketing and routes? I remember a bus trip I was on to get to one of the trucking jobs I had and remember hearing a trailways driver saying he was jealous cause one of his fellow drivers had a greyhound bus rather then a trailways bus.


The definition of 'pool' can be wide...

For many years, Trailways of NY (NYT and ADT) pooled equipment between Toronto, Buffalo, and New York City with Greyhound Lines of Canada. Each line would contribute a prorated amount of buses to represent the total of all bus miles operated on all schedules. Sometimes an extra trip would be ran for a while to correct an imbalance. This saved the thru passenger from having to change buses enroute. Only the driver's changed...

In the pool between NYT, ADT, and Greyhound Lines, Inc....it is that and more....a sharing of revenue on all routes included in the pool, based on an agreed prorated formula.

In the pool between Greyhound Lines and Peter Pan, it is also a sharing of revenue on all included routes in the pool, but equipment is not pooled. Each line drives only their own buses.

By the way, it is usually the one driving the Greyhound bus that is envious of the one driving the Trailways bus....


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Let me see both if I've got it right and if I can better simplify this.
> 
> Let's take an imaginary part of the country.
> 
> There are two big cities, Megalopolis, Centerville and one small city, Littleville.
> 
> There are three bus companies in that region, Greyhound, Circle Line and Pine Line. All three are NBTA members.
> 
> Greyhound runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
> 
> Circle Line also runs 3 daily round trips between Megalopolis and Centerville.
> 
> Pine Line runs 2 daily round trips between Centerville and Littleville.
> 
> *Example #1 (Pool)*
> 
> Greyhound and Circle Line team up to operate a pool between Megalopolis and Centerville. Greyhound gets 55 percent of the profits and Circle Line gets 45 percent. Passengers benefit because they now have 6 daily round trips to choose from. Greyhound benefits because they're getting they're getting a cut of every fare between the two cities. Circle Line benefits because of Greyhound's better marketing and nationwide ticketing, their buses are now running with many more passengers.
> 
> *Example #2 (Interline)*
> 
> A passenger buys a ticket in Megalopolis for Littleville at the Greyhound ticket office. That passenger boards a Greyhound bus and rides to Centerville. At Centerville he catches a Pine Line bus to Littleville. Pine Line then submits to Greyhound for payment of the ticket price, less a standard agent fee (say $5). The passenger benefits because they were able to purchase the ticket from one agent (Greyhound) and get to travel all the way to their destination. Greyhound benefits because they're $5 from Pine Line for a trip they didn't provide. Pine Line benefits because they got a passenger who may have picked a different transportation method if they had to be ticketed twice. Circle Line also benefits because they get 45 percent of the profits for the Megalopolis-Centerville portion of the trip.


In a nutshell, a good explanation....


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read all the documents and instead saved them for future reference.
> 
> OK, I get what you mean now. NBTA is simply an association, not an alliance.
> 
> My question would be, if Jefferson were to extend into Seattle and remain friendly to Greyhound, would Greyhound continue to cooperate with them and let them use their Seattle terminal? Would they view Jefferson as an ally on the same route or as a competitor?
> 
> 
> 
> Well you tell me....if you were Greyhound, what would you do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I were Greyhound, I wouldn't be deferring maintenance and using D4505s and Painful Premiers. I also wouldn't let drivers run amok with intentional delays. So, I'm not in the best position to predict what Greyhound would do. But if I were Greyhound in this case, I'd let Jefferson expand to Seattle and use the extra frequency to help both of us. Jefferson would need to offer Greyhound tickets and market the route, but would not be forced to pool with Greyhound.
Click to expand...

Good answer.

I am curious though....what makes you think that JL wants to extend to Seattle? Have you heard anything to indicate that happening? I was kind of under the impression that Jefferson's recent expansions far from 'home' were done somewhat reluctantly.....


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's


When we sold off our last manually equipped bus( MC-9's), Greyhound Lines of Canada was still sending down several manual buses for a few more years. At a certain point, we stopped training new hires on them, and simply made sure they did not be in position to do so...it was a pain until the last manual left.

Funny thing was....when it was apparent that the last manual's would be gone shortly, suddenly lots of driver's who 'hated them', 'fought' for a chance to drive them...


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## Swadian Hardcore

It was just an expansion that I thought of off the top of my head and I have not heard news that Jefferson may want to do this, but it's not completely insensible, either. Seattle is larger than most of Jefferson's destinations and far larger than any city west of Minneapolis. Jefferson's been expanding and while the expansion could have been done "reluctantly" out of pressure by Greyhound, it may also have been limited by difficulties in finding drivers and prolonged discussions after Rimrock's sudden demise.

TBH, Jefferson doesn't appear to be aggressive or eager to expand. It is possible that they are being weighed down by loans, high fuel consumption, milk runs, and other troubles.

That being said, Jefferson already has cooperation with Greyhound on the Kansas City-Oklahoma City. They interline on the route without pooling and Jefferson gets to use Greyhound's terminals. That is the ideal cooperation as it provides profits for both Jefferson and Greyhound and through ticketing and extra frequencies for passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> mightyjoe1201 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. At the time tho the trailways buses apparently were mainly manual transmission where greyhound was all automatic. As a matter of fact, I think it might have been capital trailways too. It was in the early 2000's
> 
> 
> 
> When we sold off our last manually equipped bus( MC-9's), Greyhound Lines of Canada was still sending down several manual buses for a few more years. At a certain point, we stopped training new hires on them, and simply made sure they did not be in position to do so...it was a pain until the last manual left. Funny thing was....when it was apparent that the last manual's would be gone shortly, suddenly lots of driver's who 'hated them', 'fought' for a chance to drive them...
Click to expand...

GLC's early DL3s had manual Fuller T-11607D transmissions. Did they send any of those down to the US? I know their CAT-powered 1997 DL3s were based in Vancouver and carried red "VAN" stickers on the rear plate above the grille. I've heard that GLC ordered manuals for better performance on Western Canada remote routes.

Found this pic of manual DL3 #999 (now preserved by a private owner) signed for Whitehorse: http://whitehorsestar.com/News/rolling-lifeline-to-yukon-called-invaluable.

Automatic DL3 driving the route: https://aaronuncanadian.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/northern-rockies-3.jpg.

Do the manuals save fuel over the automatics?


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## railiner

Yes they did send the 900 series DL-3's among other models down to New York....IIRC, those even had wheelchair lifts in them.

And at one time, manual transmission's, if shifted properly, would yield better mileage than a torque-converter automatic. When the automated manual came out, its computer insured proper shifting, and its additional gear ratio's yielded better mileage than manuals. I understand the latest Allison WT's have improved to the level of the automated manual....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Did you enjoy driving the 900s? They're quite rare. #978-990 were 1995s with the Detroit/Fuller and #996-1009 were 1997s were the CAT/Fuller. I think the latter were all based out of Vancouver and wouldn't have gone to Toronto. All their photographs were taken in Western Canada.

Wonder if Greyhound would have upgraded their Allison-transmission DL3s to the latest version during the rebuilds. The ZFs stayed. How much does gear ratio affect fuel economy?


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## railiner

The DL-3's, they sent down (remember 978 and 979 especially), were 7-speeds. We never had those in our fleet, so it took quite a bit of practice to master. We had 4-speeds in our MC-9's that were very easy to shift. We did have a couple of 102C-3's with 5 speeds

The 7 speed had reverse way over to the left and up...first was down, and it was a very low 'granny gear' that you could normally not use unless starting with a heavy load on a steep hill....you would just about get moving, and it was time to shift to second,,,if you were not quick, you would lose momentum and have to slip the clutch to avoid stalling out.

From the neutral position, second was slightly left and up, third slightly left and down, fourth slightly right and up, fifth slightly right and down, sixth way over to the right and up, and seventh way over to the right and down..... you really had to push against a spring to reach reverse and first, and also to reach sixth and seventh. 2, 3, 4, and 5 were in a tight pattern in the center, and it was easy to mistake 2&4 or 3&5 until experienced.

So yes, while I would not want to have to constantly have to depress the clutch in heavy Lincoln Tunnel stop and go traffic, it was a challenge to learn to properly shift the 7 speed, and since by then all our 'sticks' were gone, it was enjoyable and satisfying to drive a manual occasionally....especially when a new driver couldn't drive it , and you got to 'show off' your skills.... 

*

Being in the proper gear ratio does have an impact on fuel economy....the engine operates most efficiently when in a certain speed range (RPM), and that will take being in the proper gear ratio at a given road speed...It's pretty hard for a human to beat a computer controlled automated manual at that task, except perhaps on a hilly highway, where the human can 'see' the ups and downs in advance and take advantage of that knowledge...

One interesting thing about those 7 speeds....even though fully manual, the engine ECU would limit RPM's in the lowest gears, forcing the driver to upshift earlier than the normal 'red line' for improved fuel economy....


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## Swadian Hardcore

4-speeds? What model were they?

Now that I check, perhaps those DL3s didn't have the Fuller T-11607D. Unreliable sources (CPTDB) state they have a Fuller T-14607D. Do you remember which one it was?

CPTDB really got tons of info wrong. #1125 and #1325 both crashed, but they're shown as "Active". Apparently #1069 has been "refurbished." No way #1025 was "transferred to Greyhound USA". #1162 and #1169 based out of Toronto when they've been running in Western Canada?! Argh! Their sources of info are obscure and their Greyhound forums are locked to non-members. Also, I thought #1135 and #1137 were both based out of Edmonton.

Speaking of equipment locations, I was surprised to find DL3 #6374 running Portland-Los Angeles and D4505 #86522 running Chicago-New York City.

I got gear ratio confused with axle ratio. How much difference in fuel economy would there be between, say, a DL3 with a 4.56 gear ratio and a 3.58?


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## Caesar La Rock

I think possibly a Fuller T-11605D. As for the information, I'll get to the bottom of that. No one has even bothered to check which coaches were wrecked or retired because of wrecks. I'm starting to think something is going on with the site as a whole.


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## mightyjoe1201

Probably not much in economy depending on where it is running. The 3.58 is better for a lot of hills but not always great fuel economy and the 4.56 is better on fuel but sucks royally on hills. You save fuel on flats but use more on hills. Thst was my experience in trucks anyway.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wait, I thought the 3.58 has better fuel economy and the 4.56 has better traction? Because I heard axle ratios are higher when the number is lower and low when then number is higher, and a higher ratio should give better fuel economy.

Can't be a Fuller T-11605D. It's a 7-speed, and the T-11605D is a 5-speed.

Looks like someone really loves the H3-45: http://www.lifeinquebec.com/inter-city-bus-travel-in-quebec-will-never-be-the-same/.

Edit: Hey Ricky, I see you signed up for CPTDB. Perhaps you could take a peek in the "Greyhound" section of their forums and see what's going on.


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## mightyjoe1201

I may be confusing my rear axle ratios with gear ratios. But whichever the case, there really isn't much difference in economy in the ling run anyway. A higher ratio may be better economy on paper but if running hills like out west it's no better then a ratio for pulling hills. If it's on flat land yeah, you will het better economy. I wish people would stop going by what it says on paper. Because more often then not it'd not what's on paper. Just ask almost any truck or bus driver.


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## mightyjoe1201

I know that rear axle ratios the higher the number the harder it is to pull a hill. But also if the number is too low it's just as bad.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ha! Then perhaps another "industry professional" is wrong, again! On GTE we were discussing fuel economy, and one guy pointed out the D4505 gets a lot worse than the X3-45 per Altoona Bus Testing. An industry professional responded by saying the D4505 got worse MPG because it had a less efficient axle ratio.

Well, the D4505 got 5.92 MPG with a 3.73 axle ratio and the X3-45 got 6.85 MPG with a 3.58 axle ratio. Damn big difference in fuel economy for such a small difference in axle ratio!

Prevost's got to be doing something right if they have beaten MCI in the private sector and their H3-45 is so popular with passengers.


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## mightyjoe1201

As I said Swadian, what it says on paper and what it does on the road are two different things. But I forgot, the ****ing idiots who have never driven or had to worry about fuel economy know more then those who drive the damn things. Yes, a small change in the ratio can make a significant difference, but remember, they are testing on flat ground, not real world applications.


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## Swadian Hardcore

So, do you think it was really the difference in axle ratio that caused the big difference in fuel economy, or was it just that MCI's D4505 is a big disappointment?

BTW, the old D4500 with no EGR tested for 6.79 MPG at 4.56 axle ratio.

The problem is that the guy driving doesn't always worry about fuel economy, so he could be wasting fuel or rooting for the D4505 even if it uses more fuel. It's the owner of the bus that should be worrying about fuel economy and the owner isn't always driving.


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## mightyjoe1201

First, it could be it her factors too. Is the d4505 s heavier bus? If do that can affect fuel mileage. Also yes, the way a driver drives can affect it to.

I can't speak for drivers in the bus industry, but where I come from in the trucking industry, drivers do worry about it even off: they are co drivers because a lot of co give bonuses for fuel mileage. And drivers go by actually furl mileage based on not just how the vehicle is set up but also on hoe they drive, the weight they are carrying, the road conditions and the terrain. The testing Altoona does is if it's under perfect conditions which is total bull any way. There are no such thing as perfect conditions. That driver may have gotten better economy then most others. Its also possible that in the real world the d4505 did get better economy. I've driven truck for co and I've owned my own truck. I know what economy means and that it's hard to keep where some idiot testing firm says it should be. You have to factor in all variables or your nit going to get accurate mileage.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sorry about my typing. I don't always catch mistakes, it's small buttons and big fingers. Lol


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## railiner

I am not sure, but I had thought that the four speed was a Spicer tranny.

*

The higher the number ratio in a gear, axle or transmission, the lower the gear. A higher axle gear (lower number), should yield better fuel economy, but less power.

So a vehicle with a higher axle gear will require more downshifting, and often to a lower transmission gear, in order to climb hills. A vehicle with a lower axle gear, can sometimes handle certain hills without the need to downshift, or not down as far....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, the D4505 is a lighter bus. Cummins isn't the greatest engine ever, and that D4505 had a Cummins. Plus, if the D4505 was so efficient, it wouldn't be getting its butt kicked by the X3-45 and H3-45 in the private sector. And let's not forget the smelly flushing toilet and jerky ride quality.

You know, I checked National Seating again and found that they do offer center armrests in their flagship 4210SB10. Are ADI's 2008 H3-45s more comfortable or their 2014 H3-45s?

Perhaps Greyhound should use only fiberglass buses in the Salt Belt, as fiberglass doesn't corrode.


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## mightyjoe1201

You just answered your question about the economy. But then, I'm biased against Cummins. Lol. There could be any number of factors in the economy equation. You could have two buses with the exact same specs driven exactly the same and have one get better economy then the other.

I have to take your word on the 4505. I haven't been on one yet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

If you ride a D4505, you might even like it. Some people seem to like it. When the ride isn't jerky, the toilet isn't clogged, the driver and passengers are respectable, and the seats aren't American Seating, it could be a decent ride.

Still, I find it worse than the White G, which used to be Greyhound's worst bus. Of course, most drivers prefer the D4505 over the White G. The big problem is when the ride is jerky. Even a brand-new D4505 unaffected by maintenance can be jerky, and that's a big problem. Fuel economy has been improved with the new DD13 offer; most truckers agree Detroit is more efficient than Cummins, even the new Detroits.


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## railiner

I personally prefer the seats in our 2008 H's better than the '14's. Mainly because I can extend my legs straight out under the seat ahead. I also find the backrest/headrest combination more comfortable to nap in....


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## railiner

railiner said:


> Okay...I checked out a GLI DL-3 at The Port today. And I learned something new.....behind those slotted doors are auxiliary air conditioner's! The mullion between the windows that has a section curving into that overhead compartment does not contain an air duct, but rather freon and electrical lines from the main HVAC down below.
> 
> So the overhead vents on DL-3's are not simply blowing ambient air, but actually conditioned air. There is a fan inside also, to send the air thru a duct at the back of the rack leading to all of the overhead individual vents.
> 
> Live and learn.....


Hey....brought this back because I learned something more today.....

Not only are those air conditioner's in those overhead compartments, but heaters, as well!!

Besides the freon and power lines going up there, there are small copper hot water lines going into a small heater core.

Live and learn, part II 

I also took a look at the X-3's....there does not appear to be anything but a power line going into the overhead blower's in them, so they are simply 'fans' to the individual overhead vents....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Do you think the "leather" covers of the new seats are detrimental to comfort? I find cloth velour a lot more comfortable.

Nice to see that, for once, the DL3 has more tech than the X3-45 on something. Unfortunately, the extra HVAC in the parcel racks doesn't get rid of the D4505's disgusting odor.

How bad does the Salt Belt affect steel buses compared to fiberglass?


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## railiner

I have mixed feelings about the leatherette....fabric feels warmer in winter, and cooler in summer, and 'grips' you from sliding around. Leatherette is more spill resistant, and easier to clean. The fabric, if it covers the headrest, can feel abrasive if your face touches it, although most fabric seats seem to have vinyl in that area....

Some people might perceive the leatherette as more 'luxurious'....

I believe most of the frame and critical areas of the bus today are constructed of stainless steel, or else have some kind of corrosion resistant treatment to protect them. I never liked fiberglass bodies on a bus. I miss the aluminum fluted 'silverside' look of old. The fiberglass panels on our H3's have horrible panel gaps, and quality control....

I believe I mentioned recently, how you need to press in on the fender with your foot, in order to open the battery compartment door, or the edges bind each other ....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've heard that steel, no matter how well treated, still gets eaten up in the Salt Belt. Don't know if it's true or not. Since fiberglass doesn't corrode at all, perhaps segregating fiberglass units for the Salt Belt and steel units outside the Salt Belt would be a good idea?

Yeah, seems like the H3-45 isn't trouble-free either, though the X3-45 also seems to have problems with the "edges". I'll cite the roof leak as an example. Maybe the Restyled J4500 is better, though it would also have a jerking problem if the suspension is the same as the D4505.


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## Caesar La Rock

Maybe the jerking issue might be caused by the transmission. I've been on 2015 Gilligs that went into service not too long ago and it's kind of a jerky ride, similar to what you're experiencing. I mean I know the situation is different, since I'm comparing a transit bus to a motorcoach, but you never know.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wow! Greyhound #6263 is running Sked 6743-2 San Francisco-San Ysidro! The regular is an Americanos X3-45, #60580. Americanos units are normal for this route. But I didn't know #6263 had been rebuilt and equipped with a wheelchair lift. It's never been spotted or reported before.

I doubt the jerking is caused by the transmission since the X3-45 has the same transmission, Allison B500. More likely it is caused by the stiff steering wheel, which has been reported by drivers to caused shoulder pain unless you are used to it.


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## mightyjoe1201

The jerking could also be caused by the brakes if it's on start out from a stop. Our new gilligs do that. From a dead stop it jerks because the brakes don't release right when the brake pedal is released.


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## Caesar La Rock

mightyjoe1201 said:


> The jerking could also be caused by the brakes if it's on start out from a stop. Our new gilligs do that. From a dead stop it jerks because the brakes don't release right when the brake pedal is released.


That maybe what's plaguing Lynx's Gilligs as well. Never thought of that there.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The brakes? I hadn't thought of that, either. Perhaps it is caused by the Bendix EX225 Air Disc Brakes installed in the new MCIs. Still, the stiff steering wheel is a major pain for drivers, and should be corrected. Something has got to be causing the tilting and jerking during turning; something other than brakes. But the brakes certainly could be a part of the problem.

Another problem is the bad smell. While the toilet may be the culprit, I feel like there's something else exacerbating the issue, something that is unique to GLI's D4505s.

I'm still interested about the Salt Belt. Is it better to run fiberglass or steel buses in the Salt Belt? Similarly, is it better to run fiberglass or steel buses in hot-and-high areas?


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## railiner

We have a 'jerking' problem in some of our buses, most prevalent in our 2009's, and interestingly both Prevost H3's and our Van Hools. I can't say for sure, but it seems more like the engine control unit is causing a 'jerky' throttle at certain speeds....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps so. I'll have to ask some more people about the issue. One driver said it was the air bellows being too tall, while another said it was because the steering wheel is too stiff.

If it is the ECU and the jerking is also in the H3-45s, then wouldn't Greyhound's X3-45s with the same engine have the same jerking?

Anything else on the Salt Belt and corrosion?


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## Caesar La Rock

I'm sure some of you have heard of the bus wars, Greyhound vs. Peter Pan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/business/new-york-washington-5-is-cheaper-fare-since-1952.html


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## rickycourtney

I hadn't heard of that… Very interesting! It's even more interesting when you consider that Greyhound and Peter Pan now team up to run BoltBus between Boston, New York and DC.

I feel like bus companies could serve to do something like that again. Ultra low, loss leader prices are a great way to get people in the door and try the service out. BoltBus and Megabus do this to an extent with their dollar fares, although I think that is more about getting people to check out their prices.

If Greyhound picked a week, offered several (like 20) seats with $5 fares between major metropolitan areas they might get people to come try Greyhound again. And if you make the tickets only available for advance online purchase, you'd probably get good, younger, tech-savvy passengers who would be willing to take Greyhound again. That is, of course, if Greyhound can keep their act together for that week.

Note that I say Greyhound, really any bus company could do this, but Greyhound would have the most to gain from trying it out.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Those passengers would be driven away right after the sale ends due to the Painful Premiers.

Peter Pan could beat Greyhound easily right now since their buses are far more comfortable than Greyhounds new buses. Their maintenance and drivers are also better. Plus, those fiberglass J4500s don't have to be waxed to prevent corrosion like Greyhound's steel buses do.

I'm wondering, if you had to choose between a Painful D4505 and a Beat-to-Hell G4500, which would you choose?


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## Caesar La Rock

I pretty much would pick whatever bus comes. Me, along with any passenger has no say in what bus should transport them, just as long as the bus and the person driving it can get us from point A to point B.

As for painful seats, I would bring a pillow to sit on. Don't know what else you can do in a situation with a bus that has horrible seats.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You can boycott the operator and not ride the bus.

Passengers have the final say on bus operations. If we don't like it, we'll boycott it.

Remember: No passengers, no profits. I'll just fly.


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## Caesar La Rock

That's true, however many don't have the time for that. Like you just said, if they don't like the Greyhound experience, passengers will just fly, take Megabus or any other bus company that does intercity bus service, or take Amtrak.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yep. Lots of people don't like Greyhound. So if Peter Pan competed with their fiberglass J4500s equipped with comfortable Amaya or National seats, they could really hurt Greyhound.

Since the D4505 performs poorly, perhaps Peter Pan should get rid of them. They are taking delivery of D4500CTs and J4500s.

Why don't Peter Pan try out Prevost?


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## rickycourtney

So I found a few pictures of the BoltBus H3-45 coaches over on CPTDB. #6667 and #6669 were both spotted on the Seattle-Vancouver, BC run.



BoltBus Prevost H3-45 #6667-2 by Dannny29, on Flickr







I find it interesting that Greyhound didn't bother to put a headsign on these buses, at least not yet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Seems like a nice ride. This may be giving me an opportunity to ride the H3-45 again, something I have not done in a long time. #6669 appears to have either National or Prevost proprietary seating. The front end with the quad windshields and old "PREVOST" logo do seem a bit outdated. Perhaps a recap would solve that. Still, they're got to be more comfortable than the D4505s and X3-45s with the Painful Premiers.

I must say, I do not like the bolt decal going over the windows.

#6670 does have an orange destination sign. I wonder if these H3-45s have driver shields.

Does fiberglass actually help in the Salt Belt, or not?


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## rickycourtney

They're a nice, quick addition to the fleet as the service grows. I don't see these buses sticking around too long (they're already 14 years old) so a recap probably doesn't make financial sense.

I'm likely going to take a trip up to Vancouver soon. If we decide to take BoltBus over Amtrak, I'm hoping we get one of these H3-45 coaches because I'd like to compare them to the X3-45 coaches for comfort.

It wouldn't be too hard to add a destination sign to these coaches, so that's why I said "at least not yet." They're helpful in Seattle and Portland where you can often have multiple buses, boarding at the same location, for different destinations.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I hope they are kept as long as it takes for MCI or Prevost to come up with a good, new clean-sheet design. Currently, they only keep updating old designs. It's about time MCI came up with a K4500 or L4500.

As long as the old buses still work, it's best to keep them. No reason to buy a new bus if you don't need it. Going into heavy debt must really been weighing down on Greyhound, along with inefficient new engines and painful seats.

I'm interested in what equipment GLC is using in Vancouver. Could you check it out while you're there? Too bad #1125 slipped off the highway in cold weather and crashed.


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## mightyjoe1201

Swadian, I can't speak for the other aspects of the buses, but the inefficient engines are more the epa fault then the manufacturer thanks to the unwanted emission crap. The emissions control crap coupled with ultra low sulfur diesel fuel actually made engines less efficient. The damn epa can't understand that more fuel is being uses with this stuff then with the older engines and fuel.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, that's why I said they should keep the old buses for as long as they can. The new buses are all less efficient, regardless of the engine or bus manufacturer. ULSD doesn't make that big of an impact, it's the emissions control stuff on the engine that really increases fuel consumption.

As far as manufacturers go, Cummins seems to use more fuel than Detroit or Volvo.

GLI should have kept all their DL3s rather than sending so many to GLC and buying D4505s. GLI should have bought only X3-45s and not with Painful Premiers. I think they could have kept the D3s, too. GLC should have kept all their D3s and DL3s rater than taking GLI DL3s and a few X3-45s. They shouldn't have bought D4505s, either.

The 102D3 was a good bus, and very fast (for a bus) to boot.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, that's why I said they should keep the old buses for as long as they can. The new buses are all less efficient, regardless of the engine or bus manufacturer. ULSD doesn't make that big of an impact, it's the emissions control stuff on the engine that really increases fuel consumption.
> 
> As far as manufacturers go, Cummins seems to use more fuel than Detroit or Volvo.
> 
> GLI should have kept all their DL3s rather than sending so many to GLC and buying D4505s. GLI should have bought only X3-45s and not with Painful Premiers. I think they could have kept the D3s, too. GLC should have kept all their D3s and DL3s rater than taking GLI DL3s and a few X3-45s. They shouldn't have bought D4505s, either.
> 
> The 102D3 was a good bus, and very fast (for a bus) to boot.


Just so we're clear... the change in engine regulations wasn't to necessarily increase fuel economy, but to drastically reduce emissions. It's worth noting that it's been a success and that Diesel engines are now much cleaner (gone are the days of big soot clouds rising from trucks and buses). As a citizen of earth, that's worth the added expense and change in performance. It's also my understanding, that fuel consumption hasn't drastically changed (and it's vastly improved if you compare the numbers to pre-1980s coaches). You're looking at the Altoona numbers that to my understanding, while good, are nowhere as precise as the EPA numbers you're used to seeing at a car dealership.

Also, bluntly, the 102DL3 coaches are gone, the D4505 coaches are here to stay, the Premier seats have been installed, the milk has been spilled.

Where do you go from here?


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## Swadian Hardcore

The 102DL3 coaches aren't gone. Not yet, anyway. And the 102DL3 did not emit soot clouds anyway.

If the government is so worried about bus emissions, why don't they go ahead and ban smoking everywhere? That would help more people than choosing emissions over fuel economy in buses. And how come new aircraft both use less fuel and emit less pollution, while new buses use more fuel to emit less pollution?

I smell cars and pickups driving by that emit more pollution than a bus. Crack down on those pieces of [edited] if you're going to crack down on buses. I bet locomotives and ships are allowed more leniency than buses, considering all the old locos and ships still around. Not that buses should pollute more, but that others should pollute less. And outlaw smoking already!

When Greyhound goes bankrupt for the third time, they may not have a chance to recover.


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## railiner

Swadian, based on your recent opinion's, I find it a wonder that you don't change your AU 'sgnature'......


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## Swadian Hardcore

I did change it - a little bit.

Is this accurate? http://media.carcomplaints.com/img/salt-belt.png

Hey, you know something? Greyhound sent DL3s and D4505s to Seattle for the US Open charters. Not a single G4500. I guess all those were locked up in line-haul service. Perhaps they sent some Charter Services DL3s.


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## railiner

I don't get that link....?


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## Swadian Hardcore

It has to do with the everlasting issue of corrosion. The more salty the roads, the more corrosion on the buses. The point is that, since fiberglass buses generally have smooth, sealed-up fiberglass sides, they don't corrode as much as steel buses.

Which leads me to question Greyhound's use of the DL3 in salty areas. They are getting old and are not encased in fiberglass. Even though the lower half is stainless steel (painted over), corrosion could still take ahold.

#6558 is running today's New York City-Miami 1011. Maybe DL3s shouldn't be running that route when winter comes.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The 102DL3 coaches aren't gone. Not yet, anyway. And the 102DL3 did not emit soot clouds anyway.
> 
> If the government is so worried about bus emissions, why don't they go ahead and ban smoking everywhere? That would help more people than choosing emissions over fuel economy in buses. And how come new aircraft both use less fuel and emit less pollution, while new buses use more fuel to emit less pollution?
> 
> I smell cars and pickups driving by that emit more pollution than a bus. Crack down on those pieces of [edited] if you're going to crack down on buses. I bet locomotives and ships are allowed more leniency than buses, considering all the old locos and ships still around. Not that buses should pollute more, but that others should pollute less. And outlaw smoking already!
> 
> When Greyhound goes bankrupt for the third time, they may not have a chance to recover.


Here's why the government is so worried about medium and heavy-duty vehicles (like buses and trucks), they make up just 5% of vehicles on the road but they are responsible for 23% of the greenhouse gas emissions from entire transportation sector.

In other words, if we make changes to that small amount of vehicles, it can have a huge impact on emissions.

The government has also passed the "Tier 4" emissions regulations for locomotives. There are also regulations on ship emissions, but it's a more complex issue since very ships used in the transportation sector are registered in the US (and therefore subject to all US regulations).

All vehicles, regardless of age, are required to remain in compliance with the emissions regulations at the time of their manufacturing. So old cars will always pollute more. The only way to change that is to make older vehicles meet tougher standards, or force them to be retired. That's what's going on in the trucking industry but it would be incredibly unpopular for personal cars.

Banning smoking wouldn't help more people than lowering the emissions of trucks and buses. We've made great strides in reducing the number of people who smoke. Outright bans on drugs don't work and they force addicts to purchase on the black market, where the government can't charge a taxes for things like public health impacts.

My point to you was this... those things you complain about happened in the past. Greyhound will likely need to keep the Premier seats for a few years to make the purchase pencil out, the D4505 coaches aren't going away anytime soon. What do you do now?


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## mightyjoe1201

The govt is wrong about the emissions. Cars do put out more emissions per vehicle then trucks and buses. Guess you think we should be removed off the road then.


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## railiner

railiner said:


> I don't get that link....?


Swadian, when I click on your link, all I see is a black square from: CarComplaints.com....with a skull and crossbones 'jolly roger' image in the background, and the words 'Pirates are awesome' above the address, and 'Stealing images is not', below......some kind of error message that says no_hotlinking.png (400x3..........


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## rickycourtney

mightyjoe1201 said:


> The govt is wrong about the emissions. Cars do put out more emissions per vehicle then trucks and buses.


[citation needed]


mightyjoe1201 said:


> Guess you think we should be removed off the road then.


Where did I ever say that?I happen to think just the opposite. Trucks and buses provide important services that impact everyone and deserve a place on the road. I actually think it's generally more important to dedicate road space to trucks and buses, than single occupant vehicles. That being said, I think it's a good thing to work on making sure that in the long run that buses and trucks both create less greenhouse gas emissions and use less fuel.


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow. Usually someone that spouts the nonsense that we put out more emissions wants us off the road. I can't cite without looking it up since I'm at work but do the research, and not the do called scientists tat the govt uses either. I cam understand lowering emissions but the epa needs to keep their nose out and let the engine manufacturers figure out how to do it so that the engines are more reliable and more fuel efficient. Epa said that the ultra low sulfur diesel coupled with the emissions control crap would improve fuel economy but they were very wrong. Trucks went from avg of 7 mpg to 5 mpg


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## Swadian Hardcore

But you didn't mention that buses polluter much less per seat-mile than cars. That's important. They also use much less fuel per seat-mile than cars. We can agree on that. Cars are also generally privately owned which makes it far easier to get away with deferred maintenance and violations than a bus. Cars are generally not driven by paid, professional drivers, either. And let's not forget that cars still account for most pollution on the roads, while carrying very little people per-car. So cars should be cracked down upon with an iron hand, which has been used on buses but not on cars.

A single DL3 pollutes more than a single Camry, that is true. But a DL3 carries ten times more people than a Camry. It certainly doesn't use ten times more fuel or pollute ten times more.

It's also unfair to mix trucks into the equation because trucks carry cargo rather than passengers. Buses and cars carry passengers, so they can be measured in parallel. Trucks should be considered discreetly, because passengers and cargo cannot be converted to each other mathematically.

Regulations on locomotives are ineffective because locomotives last so long. You can retrofit an old 1980s locomotive with the latest emissions-reduction technology, but it doesn't have much effect on emissions unless you replace the prime mover. And locomotive prime movers last a damn long time.

While airliners pollute less and use less fuel at the same time, buses pollute less and use more fuel. Incidentally, the EPA doesn't check buses for fuel consumption.


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## Swadian Hardcore

More humiliation for the D4505: https://consumeraffairs.global.ssl.fastly.net/files/reviews/greyhound_33436.jpg.

Bus is #FL86402. Yes, that is a Detroit Diesel Series 60 14L EGR. I thought the D4505 was not supposed to emit black soot clouds. Wonder which route that is on.


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## mightyjoe1201

It's not black soot. Thsys engine oil. Looks like the turbo charger Mau have blown up on that bus. When that happens you have what you see on the picture. It's one of those things that happen with our warning.


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## Swadian Hardcore

My bad, it's engine oil. Greyhound's Miami Maintenance Center must be hella pissed off that all the engine oil spewed out. So the turbocharger on that D4505 blew up. And still, there are people that continue to make excuses for the D4505.

Maybe engine oil is even more polluting that soot and it sure is a pain in the behind to clean up. Kinds ironic that there is a "Electrolytes to Replenish" ad behind the bus.

I guess the turbocharger also needed to be replaced now?


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah. When the turbo goes all you can do is replace it. The oil came out the exhaust when the turbo went. Its something that can happen on any model bus with any engine. It sucks and it's messy.


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## Caesar La Rock

Seeing that happened in Miami doesn't shock me. Miami is turning into a cesspool. Well not all areas in Miami are, but some places have. Miami's bus fleet is in terrible condition, with 70% of the buses up for replacement.

Getting back on topic, I found this picture. I personally liked that old paint scheme from Greyhound. Kind of reminds me of the paint scheme American Bus Lines sported.

http://greyhound-tickets.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/greyhound-tickets3.jpg


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## mightyjoe1201

That's not good if they have that any for replacement. Either their maintenance sucks royally , a lot of wrecked buses or the fleet there is getting too old.

I know what you mean about Miami. Last time I was there it wasn't very pleasant. Besides the fact hardly anyone spoke English.


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## Caesar La Rock

mightyjoe1201 said:


> That's not good if they have that any for replacement. Either their maintenance sucks royally , a lot of wrecked buses or the fleet there is getting too old.
> 
> I know what you mean about Miami. Last time I was there it wasn't very pleasant. Besides the fact hardly anyone spoke English.


Well Miami Dade Transit is now getting NABI articulated buses to replace it's older buses and add much needed capacity for it's routes. As for the Greyhound in Miami, I can only hope the operation in South Florida is good. Of course, they're probably struggling just like everyone else in the state, since Academy Bus and Megabus are becoming threats to bus companies.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I read the complaint on the incident. Apparently the bus pulled into Titusville on a Miami-Orlando run with black oil all over the back. So it was still running after the turbo failure. The complaint came from a passenger going from Titusville to Tallahassee. The driver called for a replacement bus. The complainer decided to call his family in Tallahassee to tell them the bus had failed. The driver got pissed and told him to get off the phone. He said to wait until he finished. A confrontation must have ensued. The driver kicked him off the bus and called the police on him.

The police made the driver return his ticket. The driver of the replacement bus let him get on, but he had missed his connection. While getting off the replacement bus, the previous driver asked Security to kick him out of the station. He told Security he did nothing wrong. The Security didn't kick him out of the station, and the angry driver went home.

I don't know why the driver was so angry. Either he was pissed that the passenger had taken a picture of his broken down D4505, he was pissed that the passenger was on the phone complaining about the broken down D4505, or he was just pissed and looking for trouble.


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## mightyjoe1201

Sounds like a very unprofessional driver. Even if he was pissed from breaking down he still should have been nice to the passenger. If the passenger did do something wrong the driver still should have been nicer. And I know just how hard that can be, especially when it's the passenger that made you mad.

The bus will still run with a turbo failure just won't have any power. Its runs too ling it can do damage to the engine. I don't envy maintenance because not only is it a pain to replace a turbo it also is a pain to clean the mess off the back of the bus


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## mightyjoe1201

This was in our annual funfest parade we just had on Sunday. Have no clue why it was in. The theme for funfest was a homecoming. I had a better pic with the bus number till my phone died and I had yo replace it today. I lost some pics. It looked like a brand new vanhool


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know what the passenger did; all I know is that he took a picture of the bus and was on the phone talking to family when the confrontation allegedly started.

The passengers has complained to Greyhound and asked them to fire the driver. He implies he will sue Greyhound and the driver if the driver is not fired. I'm guessing he also wants a refund.

Speaking of refunds, Greyhound refuses to refund tickets for Smelly Painful D4505 Rides. As you can tell, I'm more than a little angry at Greyhound, even if I may not have expected them to refund in the first place.


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## Caesar La Rock

mightyjoe1201 said:


> This was in our annual funfest parade we just had on Sunday. Have no clue why it was in. The theme for funfest was a homecoming. I had a better pic with the bus number till my phone died and I had yo replace it today. I lost some pics. It looked like a brand new vanhool


Nice pic. Academy recently bought several new Van Hools for the South Florida market and other places too. I'm not sure when, but I was told soon they will be in Orlando and things get interesting from there.


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I read the complaint on the incident. Apparently the bus pulled into Titusville on a Miami-Orlando run with black oil all over the back. So it was still running after the turbo failure. The complaint came from a passenger going from Titusville to Tallahassee. The driver called for a replacement bus. The complainer decided to call his family in Tallahassee to tell them the bus had failed. The driver got pissed and told him to get off the phone. He said to wait until he finished. A confrontation must have ensued. The driver kicked him off the bus and called the police on him.
> 
> The police made the driver return his ticket. The driver of the replacement bus let him get on, but he had missed his connection. While getting off the replacement bus, the previous driver asked Security to kick him out of the station. He told Security he did nothing wrong. The Security didn't kick him out of the station, and the angry driver went home.
> 
> I don't know why the driver was so angry. Either he was pissed that the passenger had taken a picture of his broken down D4505, he was pissed that the passenger was on the phone complaining about the broken down D4505, or he was just pissed and looking for trouble.


Wow, that's some serious stuff there. All I can say is yikes.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound drivers seem increasingly indifferent or even angry at their passengers. Part of this must come from the high number of suspicious, misbehaving, and disreputable passengers. Yet the drivers also seem angry at their company and eager to leave.

Deadheading driver Rhonda asked another passengers to question me after I took pictures of disabled G4500 #7077. I has just boarded in Plainview when the bus driver declared that we were going nowhere. The bus never left Plainview. So I was bored and was taking pictures of the bus. The other passenger asked why I was taking pictures, and Rhonda seemed content with my explanation that I was just bored.

Of course, if I wasn't a bus fan, I probably wouldn't be taking pictures anyway. I didn't ask Greyhound for a refund on that one because I knew the G4500 was trouble anyway.


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## Swadian Hardcore

This just seen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4rpibILPqk. 

Greyhound driver driving #1182 on Schedule 5150 Calgary-Toronto caught texting and driving with no hands. He seems to be doing OK, but if something had suddenly happened, an accident could have ensued. That being said, he seems nicer than Al Garcia, for sure.

Also of note is that you get a few peeks of the interior. #1182 has the winged seats. It's a nice bus; I hope no one crashes it. It's trailer-capable, has the extra flashers, and sometimes operates to Whitehorse.


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## mightyjoe1201

Wow. Not only is that illegal that's dangerous. If it's that important he should have just called the person he was texting. I hope whoever took the video turned it into GLC.


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## Swadian Hardcore

He did turn it in. GLC responded with a generic letter, similar to the generic response I got from GLI regarding their inaccurate route map. Calling on the phone while driving is also dangerous.

The driver could have waited till he got to his next stop, Thunder Bay or whatever. Seems like he tried to blow off the incident when questioned by the passenger. Notice how he blocked off the front row seats with a package box. Perhaps Greyhound drivers use "safety" as an excuse to block off the front row so that they will not be observed doing disreputable things by passengers. Drivers themselves say they also have a habit of turning off or taping over DriveCam due to deferred maintenance.

Another video here about a DL3 being towed without safety chains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pltDvECbFFg.


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## rickycourtney

So this slipped under my radar... the old Greyhound station in Seattle was demolished last week.

Here's the story from the Seattle Times sketch artist.


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## mightyjoe1201

Calling on the phone is fine if it's hands free. And most professional drivers, myself included, use hands free. Usually Bluetooth. Otherwise, yes he should have waited for a stop or pulled over if it was imports enough. Sounds like greyhound is falling away from safety. They should have done more then a basic letter and what sounds like no reprimand of the driver.


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## mightyjoe1201

They should have cameras that the driver can't turn off.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw that article about the station being torn down. Same thing happened in Salinas, California, IIRC.

I see what you mean with the cell phone. Could be like talking on the CB for truckers. Not the first time this has happened with Greyhound. The letter did not mention the incident. They probably just forgot about it.

What's even worse, that bus has DriveCam mounted on the right windshield, and it has the green light, which means it appears to be on, yet the driver continues to text. It appears the driver didn't care about being recorded or perhaps had taped over the camera lens. In the case of the former, that means Greyhound does not review DriveCam footage unless an accident has occurred.


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## Caesar La Rock

I found this video on this site.

http://thegreyhoundgroup.blogspot.com/2012/10/robert-redden-history-of-grehound.html


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## Swadian Hardcore

How come Greyhound has sent so many X3-45s to the West? GLI #86053 is running today's 1439 Portland-Los Angeles. Many other X3-45s have come out here. For example, this morning, #86077 came in from Denver, and it's continuing to San Francisco right now after a 5-hour break.

Furthermore, #86055 is running today's 1343 Denver-Portland after having just arrived from Portland, #86087 was running yesterday's 1300 Portland-Denver, #86229 running today's 1337 Denver-Portland, and #86053 on yesterday's 1337. Everything else is a D4505 except for #7192 which is running today's 1318 Portland-Denver.

So, Denver-Portland and Denver-Reno are pretty much evenly split between X3-45s and D4505s, rather than 90% D4505s. California is still D4505 Domination.


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## railiner

So....are you happy about that, or not?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, at least it's not a D4505, right?  

Doesn't really affect me since they're not being deployed on Reno-San Francisco. But I do find it interesting that Greyhound seems to have a sizeable amount of X3-45s based out of Denver now. In fact, I believe the majority of Greyhound units based in Denver are now X3-45s, while the majority out of Los Angeles and Seattle are D4505s and G4500s, respectively. Notice how the 102DL3 is missing, though some Americanos 102DL3s are based out of Los Angeles.

Rumors are that BoltBus plans to buy ten new buses and deploy them on the Los Angeles-Sacramento and Los Angeles-San Diego routes. That may benefit me if I want to visit Los Angeles again. BTW, I loved visiting Los Angeles last Christmas, and only wanted more time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ricky, I found the first BoltBus H3-45 ride vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1OaV90I2oY.

And here's the second part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm3SxQW7CM4.

At 16:07 in the second video, you see at least 13 GLC G4500s in storage. Right after that, you see a bunch of GLC DL3s and a few GLI Blue G's. Two of the GLCs are pulling trailers. It appears that a lot of the ones in the shop area have the aluminum rear bumper, which is GLC-spec.

There is one thing I don't like about this guy's videos: his Backpacker Mentality. Even though he travels a lot and rides tons of buses, he has no clue what model of bus he is riding on, then he pretends to be knowledgeable.

And I'm also shocked to see how often he sits in the back.


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## rickycourtney

City wants West Seattle bus yard to be Seattle Public Utilities division’s new home

Seattle is looking to purchase the Horizon Coach Line yard. This is the same yard Greyhound rents space at for storage and maintenance.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know if Greyhound even still uses that lot in Seattle. Shouldn't be much of a change for Greyhound since maintenance can simply be shifted to GLC's Vancouver Maintenance Center. Buses can be stored at the small Greyhound station since most runs through Seattle are through runs from Los Angeles anyway.

If they need space, they could rent it from someone else. Perhaps they could borrow KCM's Ryerson Base for storage (not for maintenance).

So what do you think about that H3-45?

Edit: OK, what the heck is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8xU9YtQA6g?

I don't see the driver doing anything wrong. Am I missing something?


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## railiner

Apparently, the narrator thinks the Greyhound should be in the right lane, since he is not passing anybody, but rather, is being passed himself on the right....

On an eight lane freeway, some driver's think it is better to travel in the second lane from the right, to avoid constant merger's at each entrance ramp. Or, the bus is behind another vehicle in his lane, that is slowing him down, and he doesn't want to pass on the right...not sure in this case. The narrator I suppose is technically correct, but a bit unreasonable, as he has two additional lanes to the left available to him to pass the bus. Oftentimes, buses are restricted from using the left lanes on multilane freeways...


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## rickycourtney

They most certainly do use that lot. I'd guess that there are 10 Greyhound coaches and 5 BoltBus coaches sitting in that lot at any time.

You're forgetting about the Seattle-Missoula/Stanfield runs. You need to have a few coaches based in Seattle for that and even if you rotate all of the coaches through Vancouver (which would be difficult) you still need a place to do light maintenance and coach cleaning. Portland does that at the station, but there are only four slips in Seattle. There's no way they could pull it off there.

The idea of leasing space from King County Metro is good, but those bus bases will be full come early next year. I don't think they have any space to spare.

It's a tough situation… I think most of the charter companies based in Seattle have pretty full lots (certainly not enough room for 15 coaches to be stored) and considering Greyhound got a deal on the plot of land they built their new Seattle station on, I'm not exactly sure they're in a financial position to just purchase a nearby plot of land in SoDo (which would be much more efficient than deadheading buses all the way to West Seattle).

Oh and about those H3-45 coaches, what little of the interior we saw was nice. Looks like the seats got leather covers. It's a nice coach to help with Bolt's expansion.


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## mightyjoe1201

Got a question for you guys. I'm looking to move probably next spring to Ohio. If I were to apply to greyhound, does anyone know how often their drivers get home? Especially new hires. I'd prefer not being gone more then a day or two at a time given that my girlfriend is not in the greatest of health. Or if you can direct me somewhere or to someone that can let me know. Thanks


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## railiner

mightyjoe1201 said:


> Got a question for you guys. I'm looking to move probably next spring to Ohio. If I were to apply to greyhound, does anyone know how often their drivers get home? Especially new hires. I'd prefer not being gone more then a day or two at a time given that my girlfriend is not in the greatest of health. Or if you can direct me somewhere or to someone that can let me know. Thanks


I would contact Greyhound's Human Resources for their answer....and perhaps the Greyhound Amalgamated Transit Union office, for their opinion. I believe there is also a Greyhound Yahoo group forum, where several driver's can give you their input.

As far as I know, unassigned "Extra Board" driver's will generally be home at least every other night...although at times, they may be held away from home for a longer period.

Some regularly assigned drivers are home every night, but it usually takes higher seniority to hold those runs...

Then they have what is known as "supplemental driver's". I believe that is a voluntary program where driver's from places where there may be an abundance of driver's will be temporarily reassigned to a location like New York City, which is perennially short of driver's. In this case, a driver lives on the expense account for the duration, and can bank his paychecks. Lucrative for a single driver, but not a good thing for a family person....these can last for weeks at a time.

If it is necessary to be 'close to home' to care for someone, I don't believe driving for Greyhound is the best career choice....even when at home, you are always subject to reporting for duty, as soon as rested, with a two hour call time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Lots of topics here, so I'll discuss one by one.

In the video of #7195 driving on the middle lane, I think the narrator is simply annoyed and having a bad day. I don't think the Greyhound driver has done anything wrong in that case, because he is not travelling in a passing lane.

Regarding Seattle, I doubt Greyhound has to store as many as 15 buses in the lot on a regular basis. No, I didn't forget about the Stanfield/Missoula runs, as those are important to me in personal ways, but those two routes only requite 7 buses in total, at least half of which are on the road at any given time. BoltBus doesn't need to store anything as their schedules go to Portland and Vancouver, both of which have plenty of space, and the latter has a fully-equipped Maintenance Center. Same goes for the Greyhound through runs from Los Angeles.

In a pinch, Greyhound could store no more than 5 buses at a time in Seattle. Hopefully KCM has the space. Everything else could be moved to Portland and Vancouver.

I'm not a Greyhound driver, but I understand that new drivers enter the Extra Board, where they drive On Call and get at least 1 day off per week. The other 6 days, they drive 7-10 hours per day, with a minimal of 8 hours rest between each turn of driving. However, the Extra Board means they only drive when they are needed, so a driver could get no work for days, then have to work 6 days in a row before getting a break. Greyhound drivers seem disgruntled and eager to leave the company, so I would not recommend driving for Greyhound.

It is presumably better in loosely-populated areas, where long distances and low frequencies mean even a new driver can have a relatively normal life. I've heard that Salt Lake City can be one of the best bases for drivers, if you don't mind carrying lots of suspicious passengers (due to the large number of homeless in SLC) and driving smelly D4505s.


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## rickycourtney

BoltBus now operates 10 round trips between Seattle and Portland on Saturday, but as few as 6 on Tuesday and Wednesday. You need a place to store some of those coaches in Seattle on the less busy days.

The other issue is that BoltBus only runs 5 round trips between Vancouver and Seattle on Friday and Sunday and 4 round trips the other days of the week. That means there will be some serious planning required to make sure that coaches are traveling to Vancouver for maintenance.

Impossible? No, but questionable given Greyhound's track record on maintenance.

As far as King County Metro allowing Greyhound to rent out space at the Atlantic, Central or Ryerson bases... don't hold your breath. Those bases are packed to the walls with buses.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if that old Horizon lot gets sold.


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## Swadian Hardcore

We're in agreement here. Greyhound's deferred maintenance isn't going to help, but, in a pinch, Greyhound could pull it off. It may involve some reworking of timetables, though. OTOH, since Greyhound motorcoaches don't require round-the-clock maintenance anyway, one could say that it wouldn't be so difficult to rotate buses into Vancouver as long as they don't all go at the same time, which requires synchronization.

Perhaps some other transit agencies in the area has spare space, or maybe another charter line, though Horizon itself has shrunken greatly and has dumped equipment into the used market. KCM might have space in more remote garages.


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## railiner

Here's a thought....isn't there a FirstStudent operation in the Seattle area? Perhaps GL could utilize the facilities of their Corporate-mate? Even if they would have to build additional facilities at their location, such as a lav-dump......?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm wondering if the lavatory can be dumped at the Greyhound station in Downtown Seattle. I'm sure the station has a sewage system, and perhaps it would not be so difficult.

GLC transferred some buses to FirstCanada, and used Greyhound buses are listed on FirstStudent Buses for Sale. So I'm guessing there is a tight relationship between these companies.


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## mightyjoe1201

Thanks for the info guys. Doesn't look like I'm going to apply to greyhound then. I'm just looking at options for when I do move.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, I was on BusTracker today, and was surprised to see #6971, a second-hand 1998 DL3 from Coach USA, running the 1439 Portland-Los Angeles. I'm not sure why this bus is running this route today. Also, _deja vu _Blue G #7191 is running 1446 Los Angeles-Portland.

Seems that Reno-Salt Lake City is not the only Greyhound route that recently met the axe. Greyhound has cut service across the board. One of the Dallas-Los Angeles schedules has been discontinued and rerouted to San Antonio-Los Angeles, replacing a San Antonio-El Paso schedule. This represents an overall loss of service on the Dallas-El Paso segment.

Also, two of the Richmond-Atlanta schedules have been discontinued. Both Nashville-Montgomery southbounds have been cut, as well as one northbound. New York City-Indianapolis discontinued. One pair Richmond-Tampa cut. Atlanta-Orlando has apparently suffered cuts as well. Through service remains.

Bad news for GLC. One pair Toronto-Calgary discontinued, leaving only a single daily between Sudbury and Calgary. Calgary-Lethbridge reduced from daily to 3x weekly. Calgary-Cranbrook discontinued. Vancouver-Nanaimo discontinued. Victoria-Campbell River discontinued. Victoria-Port Hardy discontinued. No more GLC service north of Nanaimo on Vancouver Island, though service was picked up by Tofino Bus. Thank God the Dawson Creek-Whitehorse remains.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Big news from the rumor mill! It has been said that a G4500 failed CA Emissions Standards and was presumably booted out of the state. It is now possible that Greyhound never installed DPFs on the G4500s and simply ran them into California, hoping they wouldn't have their cover blown. Either that, or they did install DPFs but the particular example on that G4500 was out of order or disabled for some reason.

The G4500s that ran into California were mostly BC-plate units based out of Seattle and operated all international schedules to/from Vancouver. These often ran through to Los Angeles on the Vancouver-Los Angeles route. After this incident, it has been rumored that GLI is planning to withdraw all G4500s from the West and redeploy them to Chicago. BC-plate X3-45s are being redeployed to Los Angeles from Richmond and other X3-45 bases.

It has been further said that, effective January 1st, 2016, G4500s will no longer operate in California whatsoever, and one can further assume that this means no G4500s will operate in the West (and will be redeployed) by that date.


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## rickycourtney

Denver's RTD has produced a very nice "how it's made" type video for it's new D4500CT coaches that will be used on the Flatiron Flyer "BRT" (yet another flavor of Diet BRT) service. Thought everyone here would find it interesting.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Great advertising for MCI/Cummins and that whole Commuter Coach Clique, but that doesn't make MCI any better. MCI's poor attitude can be shown by them giving me fake prices when I asked for a quote - while Prevost gave me a real price range. MCI gave me price quotes so high that the H3-45 seemed cheap in comparison. Perhaps I'm just a fan now, but what if I actually wanted to buy a motorcoach? To me, that's a reflection of the whole attitude at these companies, and it appears that many others agree.

GTE's admin posted that Prevost has now overtaken MCI in motorcoach sales, not just in the private sector (which they had achieved by 2012), but overall sales. He didn't cite a source, but I don't doubt him. Even Amtrak California's Martinez-McKinleyville bus is now operated by new H3-45s.

So what do you think about those rumors from the grapevine?


----------



## Train2104

Is there a list of what numbers are which models somewhere? Swadian, I found your nice detailed model summary, but it doesn't contain numbers!

So anyway, rode runs 1605 and 1632 yesterday PGH-CLE-PGH. Comfortable buses, but 1605 left PGH 3 hours late due to a driver shortage caused by an incident elsewhere. (they announced this as the bus being late and it wasn't on the tracker, but I realized the through riders were in the station with no new driver to be found)

1632 was very empty (around a dozen people out of Cleveland)


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## rickycourtney

Spotted a Greyhound X3-45 heading south from Seattle towards Portland, but the headsign either wasn't working or wasn't programmed with the buses destination.


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## Swadian Hardcore

What were the bus numbers? I'll tell you the model if you give me the numbers or if you've got pictures.

Yesterday's 1605 is shown on BusTracker as On-Time. Don't know what to say.

It's really tough to explain bus numbers, but you can find the VIN here: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/. VIN prefixes:

1M8P=102DL3

3BMX=G4500

2PCG=X3-45

1M86=D4505

There's others, too, but those are rare.

BTW, Greyhound Cleveland is CLD.

Ricky, Greyhound doesn't appear to program their headsigns with destinations. Last time I saw a driver enter a new destination (DENVER, CO), he had to plug in each individual letter. Presumably that driver was lazy, or the sign was broken.


----------



## Train2104

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What were the bus numbers? I'll tell you the model if you give me the numbers or if you've got pictures.
> 
> Yesterday's 1605 is shown on BusTracker as On-Time. Don't know what to say.


Because it was 1605 (9) that leaves PGH at 0330 (10).

1605 had 6499, I don't remember the other one, but I think it was in the 67xx range.


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## Swadian Hardcore

#6499 is a DL3; here's a picture of it in white: http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/images/b/bf/Greyhound_Lines_6499-a.jpg.

The original GLI DL3 numbers were #6000-6619 and #6900-6664. More have been added second-hand or from subsidiaries.

GLI doesn't have any 6700s anymore, though they did have a few until recently that were second-hand DL3s:

http://www.barraclou.com/bus/greyhound/greyhound6709.jpg

http://norcalbusfans.jalbum.net/NorCal%20Bus%20Fans%20Photo%20Archives/Greyhound/Greyhound%20USA/MCI%20102DL3/slides/GLI6702Jan069.html

GLC got #6703, which appears to be the last 6700, and it's based in Toronto, but isn't APA-compliant. It's the only rebuilt 6700.

Oh yeah, I was surprised to see #40185 running today's Denver-Reno. That's a rare DL3 from Vermont Transit:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6012167778/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6012168296/sizes/l

Pretty far away from White River Junction, I'd say.


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## NativeSon5859

I rode #40185 last month from New Orleans to Miami. It sure gets around!


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## Swadian Hardcore

I wonder where it's based out of. I've never seen a Vermont Transit unit in the West. I only saw this one on BusTracker. Vermont used different specs from Greyhound. They operated independently for years after being purchased by Greyhound and had their own uniforms and seats.

Lots of Vermont Transit fans on GTE, despite the elimination of most of their routes under Greyhound management.

Incidentally, I saw a complaint today that #86029 was left without a driver at WRJ on the Boston-Montreal route.


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## rickycourtney

Really? Drivers are typing the destinations into those signs? It's a wonder any of them are set correctly given that it would be a time consuming process to program those signs using the little keypad.

At most major transit agencies the headsign is controlled by the onboard computer. It uses GPS and the information on the route to automatically display the correct destination (among the many things it does).

Smaller agencies typically use a simpler system. The information on the possible destinations is uploaded to the sign (it can be as simple as using a flash drive, depending on the sign) and the drivers get a chart of codes. So they punch in like 116 and up pops Reno, NV.

I'm guessing Greyhound has a code system (they should have an automated system, but I digress). Your driver probably had a signs where all the destinations were wiped out, but the fix is easy, you simply upload the information again.

I found the X3 sighting a bit strange. I've never seen a X3 in Greyhound colors up here in Seattle before. Normally this is the land of the G4500 with an occasional D4500 or H3-45 sprinkled in.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Every time I've seen a driver do it, he certainly punched in a lot more than a code. That last time, I remember there were passengers waiting outside to get back on the bus at a rest stop, but the driver shield was closed and the driver was taking forever with the headsign. I was standing in the front and watched him do it, and I remembered thinking those passengers could just flip open the shield and get seated. On the D4505, they actually have to raise the electronic driver shade all the way up, punch in the code, then readjust the shade.

But yeah, it takes forever.

I've seen all kinds of weird things on the headsign, too.

Perhaps the rumors are true that Greyhound failed an emissions inspection and all the G4500s are getting booted out of the West.


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## Caesar La Rock

I wonder what type of destination signs Greyhound uses on it's buses? They look like TwinVision signs, but not sure.


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## rickycourtney

After a lot of work, the Greyhound Lines article on Wikipedia has now achieved "good article" status.

For those who know how Wikipedia works... will probably know this is a big deal. Personally for me, it's also a big deal as this is the first major article I've helped improve to GA status.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I asked about the headsign; hopefully I'll get a reply soon.

Today both directions of the Los Angeles-Portland are X3-45s. Also, San Ysidro-San Francisco skeds are all Americanos X3-45s. However, all the Reno-San Francisco schedules are D4505s. But yes, #40185 is in Reno today.

Ricky, may I request you to update the fleet on Wikipedia after the recent cuts? Currently, GLI has 402+22 102DL3/D4500s, 150+27 G4500s, 196+6 D4505s, and 429+14 X3-45s. The numbers added are from Americanos, all of which are now registered under GLI. And ofc, the BoltBus units are registered under GLI with the exception of PPB units that I have taken care to omit.


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## rickycourtney

So the problem is that while I don't doubt that your numbers are more accurate... all facts "must be attributed to a reliable, published source."

The TX DMV is hard to cite because the information is presented in a form that's very hard to digest, even for people like myself who know what to look for.

I'm stuck in a difficult position until Greyhound updates their official fleet information or a reliable trade article does an article on the cutbacks at Greyhound.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, Texas DMV is in a form that is hard for most people to understand, but the current information on that page is wrong. No offence, but I feel like this is political correctness being prioritized over accurate information.

Let me ask you, when you are reporting, whether you would choose an official source with inaccurate information, or a reliable source with accurate information? In this case, you know that the official source is inaccurate. Greyhound's fleet page is almost always inaccurate, and that one is from May 2014. And I highly doubt any trade magazine will release info on Greyhound fleet cuts.

Perhaps a compromise would be put in a note that the fleet information is from May 2014, and that, according to Texas DMV, the information is no longer accurate, but Greyhound hasn't updated their official website yet.


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## rickycourtney

You're right.

I've honestly thought long and hard about changing the page to list just the models and drop the information on how many coaches of each model Greyhound currently owns. I mean frankly, outside of transportation geeks like us, who really cares just how many G4500 coaches Greyhound still owns?

It's not incredibly encyclopedic information.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, that's a good idea. The only people that do care are the people who understand Texas DMV anyway.

Of course, there's also those feebleheads on CPTDB that keep spreading misinformation. Man, I wish I could go into their locked forum and whoop them.

Sorry, I'm not in a good mood today. Somewhat fatigued, but just really frustrated. Got delayed 50 minutes off the day's schedule. Ugh. Gonna have to catch up on sleep over the weekend. Apologies.


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## rickycourtney

One of Sound Transit's D4500 commuter coaches burned up this morning: http://www.king5.com/story/news/traffic/2015/10/14/sound-transit-bus-fire--405-hurts-morning-commute/73919346/

To my knowledge this is the first time one of Sound Transit's MCI coaches has burned. Guess it just goes to show that it can happen even when you have excellent maintenance.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not sure they have excellent maintenance, and that D4500CL certainly hasn't run many miles. I do find this to be further proof of MCI's inferiority to Prevost and Cummins inferiority to Volvo. A NorCalBusFan recently said the J4500 is a Yugo, and the H3-45 is a Cadillac.

Perhaps it's time for MCI to go out of business, unless they can fix up the remaining problems of the D4500CL/CT real fast. Another business practice could be to capitalize on the D4000CL/CT, as Prevost doesn't have a short version of the X3-45.

Also, I got a reply on the destination sign. A GLI driver says they were made by Prevost. I doubt it, but who knows?


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## rickycourtney

Pierce Transit (who operates and maintains this bus on behalf of Sound Transit) generally does a good job on maintenance. Most of the transit agencies up here do.

This coach was one of the youngest in Sound Transit's fleet. It was one of 17 D4500 coaches received in 2010, so it's EPA 2010 compliant and would have a DPF. Not saying that the DPF is the culprit, but it's probably a good place to start looking.

I guarantee you that the destination sign isn't from Prevost. It's probably from a company called Luminator that produces the majority of the destination signs for the transportation industry.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Still, I believe there isn't much maintenance to be done for a Commuter Coach that doesn't run more than 50,000 miles/year anyway. Not sure what the culprit is, but I can see that these 2004-and-later MCIs catch on fire more often than Prevosts of the same period. I don't think the DD13 catches on fire much, though. But even with the DD13, MCI still has other problems with its New D's.

Yeah, I too was baffled when he said Prevost made the headsigns. Now I must say that drivers can no longer be considered reliable sources.


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## railiner

The electronic destination sign's (not aware of who makes 'em), can be pre-programmed with a list of destinations that a driver can scroll thru alphabetically (the long way), or punch in a three or four digit code (depends on the year of the bus) and press enter to instantly bring up a destination.

In addition, a driver can type in any message he or she wants to display, just for fun, if they know the program code....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, OK. So that guy must have been scrolling through the list to get to 'DENVER, CO'.

I heard a rumor that GLI is starting BoltBus service Los Angeles-Sacramento, but haven't heard any more about it.

Also saw this video of brand-new D4505 #MO86577: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIjgXkOjW1c. It looks somewhat better than the older D4505s, but that stupid forehead is still ugly.


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound sent out a teaser tweet this morning. My guess is that they're about to roll out eTicketing nationwide.


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## railiner

Caesar La Rock said:


> I wonder what type of destination signs Greyhound uses on it's buses? They look like TwinVision signs, but not sure.


I looked at the label on one today.....here's a link to the manufacturer.... http://www.aesys.com/LED-signs-and-LED-display/bus-systems/on-board-systems/led-destination-sign


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## Swadian Hardcore

So it's an Aesys Minerva. Looks like a good headsign. Do you prefer it installed on the left or the right?

I wonder if the DL3 can accommodate a 102A3-style headsign above the windshield. Should be possible since Concord Coach had at least one that they sold to Jefferson.

Peter Pan has some with a roll sign on top: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14859527168/sizes/l.

Speaking of Peter Pan, they have a solitary D4500CL, #32001 (P057035): https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/16963051503/sizes/l.


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## rickycourtney

Wow. Nobody was intrigued by that tweet??

The headsign should be installed on the right since passengers board on the right side of the coach. For that same reason, Greyhound should have also installed another destination sign on the right side of the coach just behind the door.

Considering the D4500CT is the direct descendent of the 102DL3, it could almost certainly be modified to have a headsign above the windshield. That being said, you'd probably have to do a fair amount of body work to accommodate that, so these signs inside the windshield were a cheaper and better choice.


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## railiner

I always prefered the center mounted destination sign, whether above or below the windshield. I never liked it when the MC-8 started the practice of putting the sign in the windshield. While it may be easier for the boarding passenger to see the sign in the right windshield, from a driver's perspective, I prefer it in the left windshield for three reasons....first, it is easier to reach from the seat, and second, it blocks the sun better than a shade alone, as well as it offers additional protection from a rock or bird strike...

As far as that 'tweet' goes....if it means scanning tickets or smartphones like Amtrak does, that would be great for all concerned....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I also prefer the left-mounted destination sign as it is more convenient for the driver and most passengers don't need to see it anyway.

I heard from someone that the J4500 bearing like to overheat and catch on fire. He said that the H3-45 is enormously superior and comparing the J4500 to the H3-45 is like "a Yugo to a Cadillac". He also said the E4500 has different bearings that don't have the problem. I don't know if this applies to all 102EL3s and E4500s or just the later E4500s that were redesigned.


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## rickycourtney

If the passengers don't need to see the headsign... what's the point of having one?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I said most passengers don't need to see it. If they did, Greyhound drivers wouldn't be putting silly messages on. It'll be there for when they need to see it. When they actually need to see it, the left windshield isn't necessarily worse than the right.

Operating with no destination sign appears to be no big deal unless you're boarding many schedules curbside at the same time. So really, there's no point in having one, especially since drivers don't always put on the right destination anyway. If you are going to have one for curbside stops or company pride, might as well put it on the left.


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## Train2104

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I said most passengers don't need to see it. If they did, Greyhound drivers wouldn't be putting silly messages on. It'll be there for when they need to see it. When they actually need to see it, the left windshield isn't necessarily worse than the right.
> 
> Operating with no destination sign appears to be no big deal unless you're boarding many schedules curbside at the same time. So really, there's no point in having one, especially since drivers don't always put on the right destination anyway. If you are going to have one for curbside stops or company pride, might as well put it on the left.


If anything, something to indicate the schedule number would be better than a destination. On an intercity bus route, especially a really long one, most people aren't going to the bus's final destination, they might not even be aware of it. Or there's a stopping pattern difference.

Two examples I've been in:

-Going to Cleveland. Is that the Chicago bus, Detroit bus, St. Louis bus, or something else?

-Going to NYC: Is this the PGH-PHL-NYC express, the local that stops in Harrisburg, or the super-local going via Altoona/State College/etc.?


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## rickycourtney

You totally punted on my question... for more than anyone else, the headsign is for passengers. That's why I think they should be on the curbside.

Just because Greyhound's signs are pointless, doesn't mean they can't be better. The Amtrak California buses display the schedule number, the final destination and the major intermediate stops. Something like "5702 to San Pedro via Los Angeles & Long Beach" or "3612 to Las Vegas via Barstow".


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## Swadian Hardcore

Except most passengers don't even know their schedule number. Yes, that's how stupid Greyhound passengers are. Heck, even Greyhound drivers don't always know the schedule number if they are riding and not driving. Last time there was a cushioning driver that didn't know the schedule number, and ended up asking the passengers for it. Most of the passengers were dumbfounded. Guess who answered?

And even if the signs could be better, I don't see why they must be on the right-hand side. I do think the signs can be useful for the passengers, but it's more of a "want", than a "need". Passengers can only see the sign from the front anyway, so there is no physical advantage to a right-hand sign, unless you are seeing it from a very specific angle. The right-side sign is only useful if the bus is already stopped and then a passenger walks up to the side to look at the sign. It is not useful if a bus is pulling up for the passengers to see.

Even Amtrak California buses have left-windshield signs and no side sign. And Amtrak California buses are not operated in the same manner as dedicated intercity buses. They do not usually board from a bus station gate, make more stops, and can have multiple boarding at the same time curbside.


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## rickycourtney

I'd only advocate for schedule numbers on headsigns because they're the only sure way to know if you're on the right bus. They're clearly printed on the tickets passengers need to board. Most don't pay attention to it right now, because there's no reason to. It's sort of like a flight number… most people at airports look for their flight by destination, but if they're unsure they compare the flight number.

You want the headsigns on the right side because its closest to the curb, therefore closest to the passengers when they need that information the most, when they're about to board. It's more useful when multiple buses are stopped at sawtooth type station bays and just as useful as a bus pulls up. That being said the left side signs aren't a big problem.

Most Amtrak California buses used in Southern California do have both side and front destination signs (MCI on the left, Van Hool & Setra on the right) and they're most useful at stations where you have multiple buses boarding at a multi-bay station, like what happens at LA & Bakersfield.


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## Swadian Hardcore

There might be some Amtrak California buses that have the side signs, but the D4505s that come to Reno don't: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2953524164/sizes/l.

I guess you must be talking about this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/crown426/12682274413/sizes/l.

That sign above the entrance door looks really weird. I thought they would have placed it at the top of the R1 window. MCIs that have a side sign would always have it there since the space above the entrance door is solid.

Speaking of Amtrak California buses, I heard they got a brand-new J4500 that crashed. Also, there's still the rumor out that BoltBus is expanding to Los Angeles-Sacramento.


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## rickycourtney

Another teaser tweet tonight from Greyhound about their #LiveUnleashed initiative:




My theory was that the #LiveUnleashed initiative was the launch of eticketing, but this tweet makes it clear that the initiative definitely includes a new website.

Here's a closer look at the image they posted of the new website:


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just rode D4505s #86333, #86558, #86357, and #86338. All were a few minutes late, though #86338 arrived ten minutes early. Drivers seem to be intentionally departing late regularly. The exception was #86338.

Actually, I wasn't supposed to be on #86357, but the fan belt of #86558 broke on the way back and they subbed it with #86357. I just noticed that the vinyl on the 86300s is different from the 86500s and the 86300s have a stronger D4505 smell, though it wasn't too bad on any of these. I also noticed that the earlier 86300s have bulb reading lights. But #86357 has LED reading lights, as do all the 86500s. All D4505s still suffer from jerking and swaying, though the driver's skill seems important in keeping that to a minimum. Also, the Premier LS with the rougher vinyl is somewhat better than the Premier.

Shout-out to Operations Manager Seung Sohn of the Sacramento Terminal. Also a shout-out to driver Scott Taylor, who drove #86338 professionally. He turned on all the reading lights at the stops rather than turning on the main interior lights.

Saw X3-45s #86044 and #86056 in Sacramento. Also saw Blue G's #7025 and #7265. The driver of #7265 must have been an enthusiast, as he put "GO GREYHOUND" on the headsign and I checked later to find that he departed spot on time from Sacramento (on 1440 Los Angeles-Vancouver). Surprisingly, #7265 was swapped for X3-45 #86053 in Portland. Actually, #7025 was going northbound and swapped with #86044 in Sacramento.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Another teaser tweet tonight from Greyhound about their #LiveUnleashed initiative:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1446257563.775934.jpg
> 
> My theory was that the #LiveUnleashed initiative was the launch of eticketing, but this tweet makes it clear that the initiative definitely includes a new website.
> 
> Here's a closer look at the image they posted of the new website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1446257597.909487.jpg


Hmmm.....based on the teaser's provided, how's this for a wild guess on what's coming......live web cams showing the scenery shot from some buses? You know, like some cruise ships have..... 

Could be interesting....but then again, could be a problem if the driver is shown 'tail-gating' or any other bad driving practice, or worst yet, gets into an accident. So scratch that idea......


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## Swadian Hardcore

You know, there was an off-duty Sacramento driver on #86357 and he kept talking about buses with the driving driver (a Los Angeles trainee driver). He said that #86357 is a good bus and that #86349 is a bad bus, so it's best to avoid it. He said he likes driving Prevosts but says they perform poorly in the snow. He said "these" (the D4505) are better in the snow.

Apparently this guy wasn't kept up-to-date on operations and said that mostly "Sevens and Sixes" (the G4500 and 102DL3) operate east of Reno (he also said he likes driving out of Reno, Boise, and El Paso). Actually, ever since Reno-SLC was discontinued, the remaining Reno-Denver route has been D4505s all the time. He emphasized that the Sevens go real fast.

Also, he mentioned that Sked 1420 Los Angeles-Vancouver is a pain to drive because it departs Los Angeles at 5:30 PM, smack in the middle of the PM rush hour.

Surprisingly, the trainee was the older of the two.

Oh, and lastly, the off-duty driver said he'd been to 35 states.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Oh, and lastly, the off-duty driver said he'd been to 35 states.


By that, I assume he means he drove through 35 states driving for Greyhound? That is a remarkable achievement. Such would have been near impossible back in the days of strong local unions on GL.....you did not go off division except in rare cases, and then immediately 'cushioned' or in some cases worked back home.

Nowadays, you can hold seniority nationally, and work anywhere you desire, even temporarily 'supplement' a distant base. Good for a young person, with no family that desires to see the country.....

When I started my bus career as an information and then ticket clerk in 1968, I did it mostly to get pass privilege's....within two years, I had been by bus to 49 states on vacations and days off.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

So you hadn't been to Hawaii yet? I remember you said you'd been to Alaska. Or perhaps you had been to Hawaii, but not by bus, of course. 

He said he does have a family, though. He didn't appear to be a young man; I'd say he was at least 40 years old, perhaps 50. The driver was certainly a few years older than the cushioning guy.

I saw the old Greyhound terminal in Sacramento. It has been converted to a parking lot. Surprisingly, there were no suspicious people around it. Man, Sacramento is boring though. Other than the Railroad Museum, not much to look at. But the current Greyhound terminal in Sacramento is actually in a good location. You can feel safe walking around there at night. Too bad photography is prohibited, but maybe I can ask Seung Sohn for permission.

Edit: Hey railiner, how do the H3-45s and X3-45s do in snow? That guy said they don't do good.


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## railiner

I think the Prevost coaches do fine in snow....and I took a quick survey of several of our driver's and they all said they prefer the Prevost over the MCI. One advantage is that you can actually lift the tag completely from the driver's seat, when extra traction is needed for starting out on slippery upgrades. The MCI only takes some of the weight off the tag wheels....

Surprisingly, some of our driver's actually preferred the Van Hools over the Prevost in the snow. I don't have enough experience with the Van Hools to formulate an opinion....


----------



## rickycourtney

A few more #LiveUnleashed teaser tweets:







Including one showing the new ticket design:




An up close look at the ticket showing an "Economy Extra" fare: 


And this post on Facebook seems to suggest that the upgrade is happening overnight:


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## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps the Greyhound driver said he would rater drive a D4505 in the snow because GLI reportedly locks all their tag axles, disabling the Prevost's lifting tag system.

I doubt J4500s and D4505s can match the Prevosts' performance.

On three of those D4505s (all but #86333), I sat in Seat 13, which I found to be one of the best seats on the D4505 because of its extra legroom and normal view out the window. The wheelchair position seats on the right have a blind. On #86333, I saw n Seat 17 which was also good. However, the smell and swaying ride was still noticeable., though not as bad as before.

I've heard about A, B, C, and D checks for motorcoaches, but I'm not sure what most of them mean.


----------



## PVD

Was out early this morning and was very surprised to turn a corner and see a parked G4500 in post Greyhound white. Don't see many of those around here. It carried Maryland plates, marked as Vanity Tours.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That one is 3BMXSMPAX2S080236. It was never operated by GLI. I don't know if it was ever operated by GLC. The "P" engine was apparently what GLC always ordered, though many other operators also ordered it. GLI preferred the "R" engine. Both are Detroit Diesel Series 60 12.7L variants.

I've heard some good things about the E for once. Someone boasted on National Bus Trader that his EL3s have exceeded 4 million miles and keep on going. I don't know if this is true or not because even Greyhound's DL3s are around 3 million. Still, yet another guy had said the E has superior bearings over the J, also contending that the J's bearings like to overheat and catch on fire. I wonder what kind of bearings the E has.


----------



## jebr

So, did anything actually happen during the website downtime today? I checked and nothing had changed on the website as of now, despite the maintenance going twice as long as scheduled.

EDIT: It looks like they're doing more maintenance again tonight. Almost sounds like they had some trouble updating the website yesterday (considering it took twice as long as scheduled) and are making a second attempt at an upgrade tonight.


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## PVD

Thank you for the update. I don't know what it was doing in my neighborhood. I was very surprised to see a G4500 and never even thought it might be one of the ones someone other than Greyhound got.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The G4500 was offered at bus shows and anybody could purchase them if they wished to. I'd imagine many people got confused with the E/G/J lineup which went to bus shows together. Eventually, the J4500 proved to be the most popular. I'd imagine part of that was that the G4500's launch customer, Greyhound, soon panned at the model as crap, while the J4500's launch customer, Peter Pan, gave rave reviews and continue to be a major operator.

The G4500 and J4500 both entered revenue service in 2001, months apart from each other.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Perhaps the Greyhound driver said he would rater drive a D4505 in the snow because GLI reportedly locks all their tag axles, disabling the Prevost's lifting tag system.
> 
> I doubt J4500s and D4505s can match the Prevosts' performance.
> 
> On three of those D4505s (all but #86333), I sat in Seat 13, which I found to be one of the best seats on the D4505 because of its extra legroom and normal view out the window. The wheelchair position seats on the right have a blind. On #86333, I saw n Seat 17 which was also good. However, the smell and swaying ride was still noticeable., though not as bad as before.
> 
> I've heard about A, B, C, and D checks for motorcoaches, but I'm not sure what most of them mean.


I checked an X-3 today.....the tag lift system works just fine.

The letters refer to different levels of Preventive Maintenance....'A' being the simplest and most frequent, and progressive letters more complex and less frequent.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Oh no! Poor #40195 in the RHD graveyard: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ploafmaster/22779927531. They didn't have to do that. Even if it wasn't operational, some people bought it to keep as a big toy.

Poor Shortys #1052 and #1064, too. They might not have carried as many passengers, but they ran well and weren't that old.

I'm surprised to see two blue buses in the background. I don't know what the one on the left is, but the one on the right is a X3-45 under that blue tarp. What happened to it?


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## andrewlhe

As for 6-sep and 10-oct, schedule 1539s (7124 & 60682) and 2-nov schedule 1511 (30515), all from Richmond, VA to Dallas, TX were G4500s. 1400 miles in a G bus...  I was lucky cuz my destination is the first stop which is Charlottesville...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Those are all Blue G4500s. I certainly wouldn't mind riding one. Matter of fact, I rode #7028 on Sked 7304 Dallas-Denver a few months ago. The new D4505s and X3-45s are far less comfortable. Plus, them G's go fast and have lots of luggage capacity.

Speaking of range, does Prevost list their fuel tank capacity in useable capacity or max capacity?

Greyhound's stupid fees and painful buses are forcing me to boycott them.

Edit: BTW, #30515 is ex-TNM&O and is running Orlando-Houston right now.


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## andrewlhe

But I thought the Gs burn a lot. Did they solve that problem too? I don't know...

I just know 102DL3 list fuel tank capacity as usable one which is 208 gal.

Actually I still have a lot to learn cuz I am a Chinese student who came here this August...

I am a rail fan back in China, and honestly speaking, I don't like Amtrak though. It transports as much passengers in each year as China Railway does in each 3 days... So I guess I will stick with greyhound while I'm here.

Photo irrelevant, CRH-380BL EMUs at Beijing South Station for southbound schedules


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## Swadian Hardcore

LOL, I'm Chinese too!

But anyway, the 102DL3 has a 192-gallon standard tank with 182 gallons of useable capacity. Now, Prevost says their X3-45 has 208 gallons of "fuel tank capacity". And the H3-45 has either 230 or 235 gallons. But that is confusing because I don't know if all that is useable or not. I'll ask some people and see what happens.

The G4500s used to burn a lot, but the Blue G4500s haven't had a fire yet. The blue ones have been remanufactured. The last G4500 fire I could remember was when an Americanos plain-white G4500 burned up on the San Ysidro-Los Angeles. Now Greyhound's most fire-prone bus is the D4505, of which at least three have burned since entering service in 2010.


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## andrewlhe

Seems Chinese people are everywhere... Anyway, last time I took this photo of #6940 which is actually DL3 and it says legal capacity of 208 gal... I'm confused.


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## andrewlhe

Ok since blue G no longer burns, I wouldn't mind taking one either. I have never seen a D4505 yet, maybe because they are restricted to the west where you are. I'm riding to Dallas this December, and I should be able to see one there... BTW greyhound is still way better than our LD trains, so I wouldn't mind riding one longer than 24 hours as long as there is no safety issue. I once rode YZ from Wuxi to Chengdu which was 36 hours, and I was fine.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That is indeed a 102DL3. I'm not sure why it says 208 gallons. All I know is that Prevost X3-45s have 208. But I did figure out that the Prevost figures list total tank volume, only 95% of which is useable.

The D4505s are used all over the West but never to Vancouver. Very little of anything else operate around here. Some X3-45s and that's it.

Beware going to Dallas on GLI, they did terrible scheduling. On that route, they have one-hour-long stops in the middle of the night for refueling and cleaning (you'll have to get off the bus). The only schedule that doesn't do that (1539) arrives in Dallas at 2:30 AM.


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## andrewlhe

Actually I get a transfer from 1529 to 1227 at Memphis. My way back will be 1508 on Jan 10, 2016


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## Swadian Hardcore

1529 has a one-hour stop in the middle of the night in Nashville. It also has a 55-minute stop in Knoxville for inexplicable reasons. So, you're still screwed. 1227 is a Chicago-Dallas schedule that will be refueled and cleaned in Memphis. The Chicago-Dallas is often a Blue G4500.

1508 has a 75-minute stop in Nashville right after midnight followed by a 55-minute stop in Knoxville again. Moreover, there's a 110-minute stop in Memphis at dinnertime. At least I guess you'll be able to have dinner somewhere, but the Memphis station is south of downtown in the middle of nowhere.

You can check schedules at http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.htmland http://bustracker.greyhound.com/.

Also, beware of the Richmond-based X3-45s which often rotate to Dallas for intra-Texas operations, even though Dallas is GLI HQ and has a large Maintenance Center with body shop. Dallas is a nice city, though the CBD-West area is dangerous and the Greyhound terminal is surrounded by suspicious people. BTW, X3-45 #86669 was stolen today in New York City: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/serial-mass-transit-thief-arrested-stealing-bus-n-article-1.2431732.


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## andrewlhe

I know the bus tracker thing which I had great fun with when daylight saving time ended two weeks ago... I was trying to catch 1510 on early morning to Richmond, and initially it was about one hour late, and when the time switched, it arrived Lynchburg "on time"... And departed there "early".

Do I need to get off with all my stuff at both Knoxville and Nashville for 1529? If that's so I am a little pissed off... Anyway, I can get sleep as soon as it runs again. Besides, it's just one night.

For the food thing I guess I'll just bring some instant noodles and eat them dry, my old tradition when I travel alone and hot water is not available.

For the suspicious people thing... I got a friend to pick me up upon arrival... Plus, I've seen crowds of them when I was walking to GLI terminal in Richmond at early morning to catch my 1511...

I must admit am a guy who operates at extremely disorganized schedules... Still awake at 3am cuz have a paper due Friday...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm not sure about the bags. Sometimes they make you take everything off, sometimes not. I suggest that you buy a hamburger at Greyhound Food Services or at one of the meal stops rather than eating instant noodles dry. I know people eat instant noodles on Chinese trains, but you are in America now. Don't stay up at 3 AM, there's better times to write papers than that.

Yes, you can sleep as soon as it runs again, but the timetable will still make you very uncomfortable, especially if you don't get a 102DL3. If it's a X3-45, expect painful seats. I agree that DL3s are better than YZ in China, but you shouldn't equate the two to each other. What works on YZ doesn't work on Greyhound. Take it from me, I've done both.


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## andrewlhe

Ah, speaking of the hamburger from station, I tried one at Richmond and that was actually fine, although a little bit overpriced. I also tried X3-45 once, it was 86687 on schedule 3561 from Richmond for Virginia Beach. I got off at Williamsburg, wasn't any painful since it was just one hour. I did feel the seat is somewhat different, and of course they look different. I am expecting to ride another X3-45 this thanksgiving to DC, the Charlottesville-Baltimore schedule. Although last time I saw it it was 102DL3 though. If this time it's X3-45 I will try to feel it more comprehensively.


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## Swadian Hardcore

#86687 was built in 2014, so it's only a year old and the seats shouldn't have deteriorated that much yet. But you should feel that the seat lacks lumbar support and ergonomics, while being relatively hard and flat.

Charlottesville-Baltimore is almost always a X3-45. I'm not sure where it rotates to, though. Baltimore doesn't have a Maintenance Center and the only schedules that can rotate out is to New York City, but New York City also doesn't have a Maintenance Center, so it'll have to rotate again.


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## andrewlhe

Yes 86687 was brand new, clean and neat from both outside and inside. It's bathroom was also pleasing, compared to the one of 6578 that day. I went into the toilet and it instantly it reminded me of YZ22B... Some photos of #86687 and the poor 6578


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## Swadian Hardcore

The DL3 restroom is good if you keep it clean. The X3-45, not some much because it has a flushing toilet that used recycled water, and is prone to clogging. Overall, the DL3 is the superior bus, it's just old and GLI doesn't exactly have great maintenance.

I heard GLC has better maintenance. Their DL3s should be cleaner. I always sit at the front of the DL3, but not on the D4505 because the D4505's front seats have less legroom. Too bad D4505s are all they run out here. Can't believe how big of a disappointment these buses have been. In fact, the D4505 uses more fuel than both the DL3 and the X3-45, so it has no good to compensate for its shortcomings.

Please refrain from attaching many photos onto your posts as it takes up too much space.


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## andrewlhe

If D4505 sucks so much in all respects why are they still buying it? This doesn't make any sense, although they can't have anymore DL3, they can have X3-45 instead right?

I didn't care too much about where to sit, but last time I arrived at the station late and got the back row middle seat of DL3. The engine was sort of noisy and there were a great deal of vibrations.

Sorry for the photo thing, cuz I use the mobile app, and the photos looks just fine but I realized it's terribly large on desktop version.


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## Caesar La Rock

As for why the D4505s are being bought and not anything else from MCI, that's all pretty much on Greyhound. They choose to buy those buses. I've personally never ridden one, since the last time I rode Greyhound, it was a whole different ball game back then.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No need to apologize. You could upload them somewhere online and then provide the link.

They made a mistake buying the D4505s, but they aren't buying them anymore. They did get some state-owned D4505s this year. Greyhound isn't buying anything right now, though I do feel like they may be oblivious to some of the D4505s problems. Regardless, Greyhound still has 443 X3-45s as opposed to only 202 D4505s.

If you sit in the back middle seat, your ride will suck every time unless you get all 3 seats to yourself. The X3-45, Blue G, D4505, and some GLC DL3s don't have the middle seat in the back, so they have one less seat overall.

As for the painful seats, I don't know why Greyhound keeping buying them, but something fishy may be behind the scenes. I found a picture of a GLC DL3 interior, which has the best seats: http://www.letmestayforaday.com/photo/1057214946MVC-011S.JPG.


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## andrewlhe

Hopefully they can rebuild their D4505 in the future, or just get rid of them and buy something else. I'm a little curious how much longer will their DL3s last. 15 years old and still running with great efficiency is a miracle itself. Before I came here I was under the impression that buses hardly last for more than 10 years, since most transit bus in China get replaced in every 6-8 years.

I must admit that stuff built in US are much more substantially built than stuff from China. Take GE C36-7s which China imported in 80s as an example, approximately 100 out of the 422 total are still running (mostly as switchers) despite the age of 30 years, in comparison with most of the Chinese locomotives which retire in 20 years. (But anyway, they have the money to buy 2 thousand 13,000hp electrics a year, why keep the old ones) And looks like most of Amfleet cars will eventually outlive the guys who built them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Unfortunately, many American products are not nearly as sturdy as they were before. The D4505 is a perfect example. The roof is simply glued together without rivets, as are the windows. All kinds of measures to save production costs were put into the D4505. Greyhound used to own MCI, and the DL3 is the last MCI that was designed under Greyhound ownership.

The American Seating on the D4505s and X3-45s are also low-quality. I took these pictures of the seats in 2010 D4505s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/21239540590/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/20047415836/sizes/l

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/19885675550/sizes/l.

Greyhound is selling some white (not rebuilt) DL3s right now that have around 2 million miles. They're cheap and I would buy one if they weren't all in Atlantic City, NJ. The rebuilt ones probably have close to 3 million miles now.

Actually, the 1946 and 1947 Budd railcars running in Canada have probably already outlived their builders. Here's one: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2176372.


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## rickycourtney

I've been meaning to mention it for a few days, but the new Greyhound website has launched. Unfortunately while the print at home tickets have been redesigned, eticketing still hasn't launched.

The big difference is that Greyhound now has multiple fare categories:




The website also outlines the higher prices you'll pay if you purchase at the station.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw the new website too, but didn't post about it after finding that its fleet page and route map are still inaccurate. Also, Greyhound still charges the $2.50 booking fee.

Also of note is that driver Jason Futch is all over the website, along with his mustached buddy, who no longer works for Greyhound.

#86549 is featured in the exterior and interior bus shots. The footage was filmed in Sacramento. Incidentally, that was the first Cummins-powered D4505 I rode and I photographed it in Sacramento before security told me to stop taking pictures. From the interior shot, #7191 can be seen departing for Reno, even though Blue G's are rarely seen in Reno. #7191 was the first Blue G I saw, and I photographed it in Reno at the Denver-bound gate.

I am exasperated at Greyhound's incompetence and can only hope the worst for them. If you can't make an accurate map of your own routes, then you deserve liquidation.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> but didn't post about it after finding that its fleet page and route map are still inaccurate.


Really? *That's* what you got caught up on?


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## andrewlhe

I was really disappointed that greyhound don't accept e-tickets. I usually rides between Charlottesville and Richmond, VA. Will call in Charlottesville is fine, but I really don't like to wait in the line in Richmond for 20 minutes to get my ticket printed. So usually I had to go to library to buy my ticket... And pay an extra 5 cents for every ticket printed, so stupid.

Also, they seems didn't rework the ticket purchased through mobile app. So stupid.

I was also surprised to see that many Amtrak throughway connection bus are in fact Greyhound. The most annoying fact for this, is the price posted on Amtrak website is actually higher than that posted by Greyhound itself. So stupid.

BTW, I found you (Swadian) hate D4505s and the seats on them with such a passion. You shall buy a retired D4505, tear it apart with hand and crush the seats with a road roller, etc. to ease your hatred.


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## Swadian Hardcore

rickycourtney said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> but didn't post about it after finding that its fleet page and route map are still inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? *That's* what you got caught up on?
Click to expand...

GMAB. I'm an all-or-nothing kind of man. You either get the route map right, or you don't make a route map at all. It was especially disgraceful for GLI to launch a new website without correcting the route map. And you have to remember that I emailed GLI about the route map when it was first released, and they never corrected it.

Wouldn't you be pissed too?

But I'll admit it. The real reason I'm pissed is because GLI released a new website without correcting any of their actual problems.



andrewlhe said:


> ...
> 
> BTW, I found you (Swadian) hate D4505s and the seats on them with such a passion. You shall buy a retired D4505, tear it apart with hand and crush the seats with a road roller, etc. to ease your hatred.


LOL.


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## andrewlhe

New question, I am trying to go to New York (from Charlottesville) sometime next year and I'm booking tickets right now. The website only allows me to transfer at Baltimore, which makes the trip inefficient, or Richmond, which even sucks more.

I'm intended to transfer at DC, for obvious reason. However, I can't do that without booking twice and pay the fee twice and the price itself makes a big difference.

Charlottesville-New York is $40+2.5, whichever transfer is. Charlottesville-DC-New York is 18+26+2.5*2. Amtrak generally takes 70 or higher, and some of the time really doesn't work out for me, and the one do work with me is 100+ with the first part of trip using Greyhound to DC...

So, can I customize my ticket at station? If so, Will that even cost more if that's possible...


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't see the problem with transferring at Baltimore. Baltimore is right in between Charlottesville and New York City. So just transfer at Baltimore.

Say, which airline did you fly on from China?


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## andrewlhe

No there is difference, some schedules between DC and NYC doesn't stop at Baltimore, by which I mean in my case, 2 hours more waiting at Baltimore.

I flew from PEK to IAD in August, I really don't have too much choice, I can use either Air China or United. Air China offers a deal from WUX (my hometown) -IAD (overnight transfer at PEK) for a total of 900 bucks, so I go with them. And the first part is actually carried by Shenzhen Airlines ZH 9559, the second is CA 817.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Take the 3926 to Baltimore, then transfer to the 2434 to New York City. You'll depart at 8:45 AM and get there at 5:20 PM.

On the way back, take the 2429 to Baltimore, then the 3927 to Charlottesville. Depart at 10:00 AM, and arrive at 8:50 PM.

The reason transferring at Washington on the outbound is useless is because the 3926 gets to Washington at 11:50 AM, and the next possible connection to New York City, the 2940, departs at 1:00 PM and gets there at 5:20 PM. So the total time is the same whether you transfer at Washington or at Baltimore.

On the inbound, the 2933 is a Peter Pan schedule, not a Greyhound schedule. There may be a bug preventing the connection for whatever reason. Otherwise, it's the same as the outbound.


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## andrewlhe

The problem is that my outbound had to be 3924... I will clarify this, I cant leave that day until at least 3, and it also doesn't make any sense if I arrive early. I need to be in NYC at around 2 to 3 the next day to efficiently pick my parents up... By which I mean if I transfer at DC with 2276, it will be terrific.


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## andrewlhe

Then we will tour around Northeast and certainly we won't skip DC on our way back, during which I will consider other carriers too including Amtrak. Sorry I didn't say this in first place. I was just trying to figure out the best plan for an particularly awkward situation.

They will fly here with AA, which gives them a fantastic deal of 900 bucks total for the round trip of 2 from PVG to JFK transferring at LAX


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## beebopper

Union Station officials dont allow Greyhound to use Union Station as a transfer point due to the limited GLI facilities; hence why Baltimore is used as a transfer point!


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## beebopper

Also all the Charlottesville schedules originate in Baltimore!


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## andrewlhe

beebopper said:


> Union Station officials dont allow Greyhound to use Union Station as a transfer point due to the limited GLI facilities; hence why Baltimore is used as a transfer point!


However, on GLI Route Map, Washington, DC and Richmond, VA are in bold letters, identified as "Major Transfer Points" in this area even Baltimore is not. I don't have any idea about the facility problem (never been there before), but I should be able to be there and see during thanksgiving.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Remember, the GLI Route Map is a piece of useless junk. DO NOT ever use the route map for anything. Simply looking at the route map is a mistake.

Listen to the man. He knows what he's talking about because he drives Greyhound over there. If you do insist on transferring at Washington, check with Peter Pan and BoltBus. BoltBus is owned by Greyhound (and a bit by Peter Pan), so they are the same thing, except that they actually use some older 2008 X3-45s in the Northeast that don't have as painful seats as the Greyhound X3-45s. However, BoltBus also uses 2009 X3-45s with super-painful seats.

BoltBus doesn't open for booking until 4 to 6 weeks before departure, but their fares are sometimes cheaper.

I lived in Philadelphia and I don't get the obsession with touring the Northeast. It's really not that fun IMHO. When are you going?


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## andrewlhe

GLI route map is not as well maintained, even it's not complicated at all, as China Railway's route map. I tried my best to find any flaw in that map, but I simply can't. Greyhound even misspelled names of cities, so obviously.

Actually now their flight changed a little and they are arriving JFK at 5:50 am, so I am OK with that Baltimore transfer now. No need to worry about this at this point. I would definitely try Bolt Bus as long as it's cheaper, but the most importantly I want to try Acela Express even it is overpriced. I miss rolling at 300kph so much, even though Acela is only 240kph and the average speed is awfully low, still can kind of remind me how fast a train can go. I'm sick and tired watching the Norfolk Southern freight trains here crawling in bicycle speed and lower...

We are traveling in Northeast from March 5 to March 13 (my spring recess). I haven't decide where to go yet, Boston, New York, Buffalo maybe. And on our way to C'ville we will stopover at DC. Then I need to get back to school when they will stay at C'ville for a while and we may take some short trips during weekend to Richmond and Virginia Beach. They will go back to China from NY at 28 Mar.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You should go to Philadelphia, New York City, and then take a ride up to Vermont, New Hampshire, or Maine. Buffalo isn't worth your time. Boston is OK depending on what you're interested in.

Freight trains out here aren't that slow. Most in the West go 59 or 70 mph. The motorcoaches out here go faster too; D3s without governors can exceed the speedometer. Though, if you really want speed, get in a fighter jet and go 1500 mph.

Oh trust me, that route map is junk. There's a big chunk of Reno-Denver missing, among the 14 errors I was able to find. And remember, Greyhound doesn't go to Omaha anymore, they've turned it over to Burlington, which is a separate, privately-owned company.


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## andrewlhe

Ok I will consider your advice, I am not positive of Buffalo in the first place since the distance is pretty great.

Yes the speed really depends. Sometimes it's ok, but I once waited at a crossing for about 10 minutes until one finally passed it. But, freight trains go at 60-70mph is pretty decent, but it depends on the number of cars them normally consist, and the power and numbers of locos.

However the top speed of freight trains doesn't really matter too much if considering the overall efficiency of the service. Too many other things to be taken into account.

As for motor coaches, going too fast isn't really a good idea, too much news on accidents led by speeding.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, a motorcoach going fast doesn't necessarily lead to more accidents, it depends on many more factors. If the driver is stupid or fatigued, or if maintenance is poor, he'll crash at 50 mph on a flat desert road. Whereas you can go 80 mph in a 102D3 on I-10 in West Texas and you'll be fine because the speed limit is 80 mph. And of course, the 102D3 is a remarkably stable platform.

It's actually more dangerous to drive at 65 mph in a 80 zone than to drive 80 mph in a 80 zone because everyone else is going so much faster. But obviously, one shouldn't drive 90 or 100 in a 80 zone. Basically, going fast is OK, speeding is not OK.

The factors that lead to a crash could be, but are not limited to:

Driver

Maintenance

Speed

Weather

Terrain

Traffic

Stability


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## andrewlhe

Speaking of crashes, if there's a crazy passenger try to assault the driver, how sturdy is that aisle gate? If the person actually do manage to penetrate that gate will he be able to have physical contact with the driver? I noticed that drivers need to close that gate first in order to get onto the seat. And if that person do have physical contact with driver, how likely will that contact result in a crash that incurs loss of equipment and life? I read on Wikipedia which noted that gates are installed after several incidents happened, but after gates are installed, last year there's still an accident of this type.


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## rickycourtney

andrewlhe said:


> Speaking of crashes, if there's a crazy passenger try to assault the driver, how sturdy is that aisle gate? If the person actually do manage to penetrate that gate will he be able to have physical contact with the driver? I noticed that drivers need to close that gate first in order to get onto the seat. And if that person do have physical contact with driver, how likely will that contact result in a crash that incurs loss of equipment and life? I read on Wikipedia which noted that gates are installed after several incidents happened, but after gates are installed, last year there's still an accident of this type.


It's not that they're not sturdy... Its that they're not locked. Passengers can easily push them open (which is important in an emergency evacuation situation). It's possible for a passenger to open the gate, step down the stairs, close the gate and contact the driver. So someone who's determined to hurt the driver or take control of the bus can still do so, but the gate would slow them down. Just as importantly it gives the driver and other passengers a few seconds to react and possibly do something to prevent the incident from being worse.


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## railiner

Here's the answer to that problem...... 

http://www.mcicoach.com/public-sector/publicPrison.htm


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## andrewlhe

rickycourtney said:


> andrewlhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of crashes, if there's a crazy passenger try to assault the driver, how sturdy is that aisle gate? If the person actually do manage to penetrate that gate will he be able to have physical contact with the driver? I noticed that drivers need to close that gate first in order to get onto the seat. And if that person do have physical contact with driver, how likely will that contact result in a crash that incurs loss of equipment and life? I read on Wikipedia which noted that gates are installed after several incidents happened, but after gates are installed, last year there's still an accident of this type.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that they're not sturdy... Its that they're not locked. Passengers can easily push them open (which is important in an emergency evacuation situation). It's possible for a passenger to open the gate, step down the stairs, close the gate and contact the driver. So someone who's determined to hurt the driver or take control of the bus can still do so, but the gate would slow them down. Just as importantly it gives the driver and other passengers a few seconds to react and possibly do something to prevent the incident from being worse.
Click to expand...

Why not have a 'driver gate' that open from inside with a lock like the ones on windows that can easily be opened during emergency but can't be forced open from outside.


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## andrewlhe

railiner said:


> Here's the answer to that problem......
> 
> http://www.mcicoach.com/public-sector/publicPrison.htm


Maybe they should make this out of D4505 to ensure maximum suffering of the passengers inside


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## Swadian Hardcore

Since the shields have been installed, drivers still get attacked, but fatalities haven't occurred, AFAIK. But yes, indeed, passenger attacks have probably caused more incidents then all other causes combined. A passenger stabbed a driver on a DL3 in 2001, causing the bus to crash, then another passenger beheaded and cannibalized his seatmate in 2008, to name the worst examples.

The passenger windows don't have a lock, you can simply pull up the bar and open the window. I did hear from Railiner that some windows will trigger an alarm when opened. All I know is that the DL3 windows don't do so and I was allowed to try it once. Wasn't particularly hard and a good way to air out the interior while sitting in the yard.

If you had a lock, it could block the front in an accident if the driver was killed or immobilized.

BTW, that ISTV is a D4000CL, which is related to the D4505.


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## railiner

I like this solution 

https://www.google.com/search?q=trailers+as+buses&rlz=1C1SKPM_enUS438&tbm=isch&imgil=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%253BQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FTrailer_bus&source=iu&pf=m&fir=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%252CQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%252C_&biw=1440&bih=813&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D&ved=0CCcQyjdqFQoTCLL0jbjjmskCFYXKPgodfU8Pgw&ei=5NpMVrLyB4WV-wH9nr2YCA#imgrc=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%3A&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D


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## rickycourtney

**Serious comment alert**

What Greyhound could've done is install shields *around* the driver instead of installing a gate to block the aisle. This is what many transit agencies have done around North America.

Here's a look at what a shield looks like:


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## andrewlhe

railiner said:


> I like this solution
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=trailers+as+buses&rlz=1C1SKPM_enUS438&tbm=isch&imgil=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%253BQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FTrailer_bus&source=iu&pf=m&fir=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%252CQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%252C_&biw=1440&bih=813&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D&ved=0CCcQyjdqFQoTCLL0jbjjmskCFYXKPgodfU8Pgw&ei=5NpMVrLyB4WV-wH9nr2YCA#imgrc=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%3A&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D


Oh this is a fantastic idea, you can even have multiple trailers in a row if you are overbooked. But this thing must have an awfully big turn radius. Plus, in addition to the driver in the tractor, you probably need a conductor in the trailer.


----------



## rickycourtney

andrewlhe said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like this solution
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=trailers+as+buses&rlz=1C1SKPM_enUS438&tbm=isch&imgil=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%253BQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FTrailer_bus&source=iu&pf=m&fir=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%253A%252CQnUgZIrlpO9NGM%252C_&biw=1440&bih=813&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D&ved=0CCcQyjdqFQoTCLL0jbjjmskCFYXKPgodfU8Pgw&ei=5NpMVrLyB4WV-wH9nr2YCA#imgrc=y4NBpf65wAi1lM%3A&usg=__L_28w4L4a7Kh3FNsXseHyybtdNQ%3D
> 
> 
> 
> Oh this is a fantastic idea, you can even have multiple trailers in a row if you are overbooked. But this thing must have an awfully big turn radius. Plus, in addition to the driver in the tractor, you probably need a conductor in the trailer.
Click to expand...

I've actually rode on a bus like that on Catalina Island.


Source: http://californiaweekend.com/california-vacation/catalina-tour.html

Actually since these buses are articulated... they have a tighter turning radius compared to a normal bus. In fact that's why they use buses like this on the twisting roads of Catalina Island.

In fact in the transit bus world I know 60 foot articulated buses turn tighter than a 40 foot bus.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yep, trailer buses (and articulated buses) do turn tighter. Though, of course, using them as motorcoaches is a joke. He meant it to be funny. A transit man told me artics do like to swing their tails around when turning.

I like those shields used by Winnipeg Transit, though I don't know if it would be easy to install them in motorcoaches. As you know, what looks easy on paper may be difficult in practice. I'll defer to motorcoach driver Railiner for his opinion. I have not yet ridden a transit bus with such shields.

For safety, I advocate for drivers to check all passengers' IDs and also stop visibly suspicious passengers from boarding.


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## mightyjoe1201

In a way I like the idea of a bus like the one railiner mentioned. Only problem there is that in areas like the north east where roads are narrow it would be hard to maneuver. Tho not being able to interact with some passengers would be a blessing for drivers. Lol.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A GLC (ex-GLI) 102DL3 caught on fire near Field, BC this morning: http://globalnews.ca/news/2350338/greyhound-bus-fire-closes-trans-canada-highway-west-of-field-bc/. 

It was running Schedule 5004 Vancouver-Calgary when a tire in the rear blew out and sparked the fire. The driver tried to put out the fire to no avail. He and all the passengers were able to escape the bus unscathed, but the bus was destroyed. The bus number is unclear.

AFAIK, almost all buses that suffer a rear tire blowout will be destroyed by fire. Preventing such blowouts and their resultant fires should be a top priority.


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## rickycourtney

BoltBus launched its own bus tracker today. There's a link on the homepage and the function has been added to the BoltBus app too.

It's just in time for my December return trip after celebrating my birthday in Vancouver with my wife (we're taking Amtrak Cascades up to Vancouver).

BoltBus has also improved eTicketing since my last trip earlier this year. In addition to getting the boarding pass emailed, you can now pull it up in the BoltBus app and create a pass that can be stored in the iPhone Wallet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ha, it's just like Greyhound BusTracker! Clearly the same program. #6670 is in action today on the Seattle-Vancouver, though I wasn't able to find the other H3-45s.

I am still of the firm belief that improving the sales process of your product is hypocritical when not backed up by improvements in the product itself, especially if the product is poor.

Could you please see what Greyhound has up in Vancouver when you go up there? How's the weather up there?


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## andrewlhe

Speaking of Bolt bus, is the fleet roaster on Wikipedia accurate?

Did you edit that to include the seats on them? Texas DMV certainly wouldn't have that information. I sensed your hatred...

Bolt bus's mobile app is entirely the same as Greyhound's except the color. Their website is exactly the old GLI website.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Wikipedia should not be trusted since anybody can edit it and the "official" GLI fleet page is inaccurate. You can figure out the seats on Texas DMV by looking at the model and year of the bus. For example, VIN prefix "2PCG" is the X3-45. All 2008 X3-45s have the Patriot seats, the same as the DL3. All other X3-45s have Premier seats, which are torturous.

BoltBus X3-45s have 0800-series numbers. Do keep in mind that #0842 exploded on the New York City-Boston route after the engine caught on fire: http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_bolt_bus_explosion_kb_150511_16x9_992.jpg.


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## rickycourtney

I would argue that the product BoltBus is offering isn't poor. In fact every trip I've taken with them has been pleasant.

The drivers are friendly, the buses are clean, they offer eTicketing, WiFi, power outlets and the price can't be beat.

What more do you want?

My only complaint is with the seats being uncomfortable. That being said, I find them tolerable for the short trips BoltBus offers. Truth be told, I've sat in worse seats on airplanes, for longer periods of time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've sat in a lot of seats on planes, but I haven't sat in one as bad as a Painful Premier. And I reckon I've taken a lot longer flights and a lot longer bus rides than you have.

I'm pissed at Greyhound, and I'm pissed at BoltBus. That's why I'm boycotting them. You know why I'm boycotting them, and I will not repeat myself. If someone else asks, I might explain again, though I'm tired of doing it.

Some people are hippies. And some people are the antithesis of hippies. I'm one of the latter.


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## rickycourtney

I'm neither.

Some people just wants to travel on schedules that work (which Amtrak is failing to provide), safely and at an affordable cost. That's me. In my experience BoltBus provides that, so I don't mind traveling with them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That doesn't mean their product is good. Just because they offer a useable (and barely tolerable) product doesn't mean they offer a good product.

Greyhound offered a better product 50 years ago than what they offer now, other than the fact that they used to make more stops. Frankly, if I came face-to-face with the designer of the Premier, I'd give him the middle finger, and I'd do the same to the engineers who designed the D4505.

You make things better, not make things worse. You don't make things worse and then introduce e-ticketing to cover up your mistakes.


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## andrewlhe

Any comment on Megabus?


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## rickycourtney

andrewlhe said:


> Any comment on Megabus?


He hates them too.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Actually, I don't hate them, I hate Van Hools. Similarly, I don't hate BoltBus, I just hate Painful Premiers and D4505s. Just because I'm angry at GLI and think they are stupid doesn't mean I hate them.

After all, it was GLI who refused to fix the route map after I e-mailed them with a list of mistakes. It was GLI who continued to order Painful Premiers even though nearly everybody hated them and complained about them. It was GLI who failed to discipline their drivers for intentionally delaying their buses. It was GLI who governed their buses below the speed limit for "safety" and then deferred maintenance. It was GLI who failed to fix any of their problems and decided to distract us with a new website instead.

If you have to choose between Megabus and BoltBus, choose BoltBus. In the Northeast, you have a decent chance of getting either a 2008 X3-45 (http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Bolltbus_Prevost_X345-Interior.jpg) or a Peter Pan BoltBus (http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Boltbus_MCI_D4505-Interior.jpg). They also have 6 new CX45s which are poor buses but with OK seats.


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## andrewlhe

Did you see the video on American Seating's website about the safety advantages of Premiers over normal seats? Poor DL3 destroyed in that crash test. Also, Greyhound's CEO appeared in that video saying stupid stuffs. That makes me think there must be something behind the scene.


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## rickycourtney

So a bit of background... the Premier is a 6+ year old seat design at this point. When it was introduced it was really the first seat that put safety first, by adding seat belts but still keeping containment. But the problem is that it put safety first... and comfort a far second. Now fast-forward to today, the federal design standards have caught up and most seat manufacturers are now building a safety compliant seat that's also comfortable.

Greyhound was way out in front here. In 2008 when they bought the first Premier seats, they were the only seats on the market that included 3-point belts and containment. I have a hard time faulting them for trying to do the right thing.

The only thing I fault Greyhound for is continuing to buy the Premier seats over the last 3 years or so, when there were more comfortable and safe seats available. Bear in mind that's about 200 coaches in a 1,200+ coach fleet.


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## Caesar La Rock

Megabus, they've been doing well down here. So well in fact, they're stealing business from other companies. Due to the fact no serious accidents have occurred with Megabus and the buses often arriving early at their destinations, that furthermore makes them a very tough competitor.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Premier wasn't necessarily the first seat that put safety first. I think many previous seats also put safety first, but they just weren't as safe as the Premier. And some school bus seats already had seat belts and containment, they just weren't comfortable. Furthermore, I thought Kiel Sitze (or maybe whoever makes the Setra seats) had already designed seats equally as safe as the Premier and much more comfortable, they just weren't offered in North America yet.

Apparently, Greyhound tried to do the right thing, but they must've also done some shady dealing behind the scenes, because even after countless people have complained about the Premier, GLI has ordered nothing but Premiers since 2009. And Premiers now comprise 50% of all GLI seats - a total of approximately 30,000 seats in 600 motorcoaches. In contrast, other original Premier customers, such as IT and ADI, have switched to much superior seats for their latest orders.

Meanwhile, GLI is dumbfounded at why they are losing passengers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

A GLI driver on Facebook, who had previously exchanged messages with me, has issued a warning about "non-Greyhound employees" in a Greyhound group (which I am part of), suggesting that I am a "terrorist" and saying that I "know too much about GLI.....and us and our union policies". He has called for my eviction from said group and is recommending that other members not communicate to me. Keep in mind that I am the only member of the group who is both not a Greyhound employee and knows more about Greyhound than some of the employee-members.

So now not only is it a crime to take pictures of buses, but it's also a crime to know too much about buses?

This is a blatant insult and I am furious!


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## andrewlhe

Do they ban people photographing their bus? I have took decent amount of pictures at their terminals at both C'ville and Richmond for anything I am interested in, and I met no opposition. I walked in their garage at Richmond, taking pictures of each bus in it, and some of their employees saw me but seemed they don't care at all.


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## Caesar La Rock

If they say something, they'll probably ask you what you're doing. However, they may not even do anything and might ignore you all together. Especially during this time of the year, when it gets busy. However, with the attacks on Paris and ISIS threatening further attacks in the US, security may have been increased up for precautions.


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## andrewlhe

If they have security concerns, the first things to do is to set up security screening for boarding or just for the entrance of the station

In addition, armed guards.

People's Armed Police Corp(China's National Guard) at a Chinese railway station

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/7tJ2bf


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## Swadian Hardcore

Back in 2013, I was photographing in Sacramento when a security guard told me to stop taking pictures. Then, in 2014, I taking pictures of an Orange Belt Stages DL3 when the driver told me to stop taking pictures and also forced me to delete the pictures I had taken. However, I was able to sneak out with some of the pictures.

But when I was at the Los Angeles Maintenance Center last Christmas, they actually gave me permission to walk around and take pictures so long as I did not obstruct operations.

I find it quite comical to think terrorists would attack GLI as most GLI passengers are poor and it would do far more damage to attack Amtrak. Furthermore, a real terrorist wanting to attack GLI would most likely get on at a small town with a suicide belt and blow himself up. There would be no need to take pictures.

But what's really comical is that this GLI driver on Facebook has accused _me _of being of terrorist. Not only does he have no evidence that I am a terrorist, he also has no evidence that any terrorist wants to attack GLI.

Furthermore, a potential terrorist could easily find pictures and videos online of motorcoaches, including detailed videos such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNN47FY_vn4.


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## andrewlhe

It is also true that security measures of Amtrak are far from enough too. Even if security checks are implemented at all facilities, it's clear that most roads are not protected at all, meaning a terrorist can easily put a mine under the track and blow it up when a train comes. The only thing that's well protected is airlines.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Which is why I find it highly unlikely that a terrorist would attack GLI. They could blow up a highway bridge during rush hour, though, which would cause lots of damage and kill a lot more people than blowing up a Greyhound. They could blow up schools. They could blow up the NYC Subway. They could blow up a stadium during a sporting event. All of those would be far more effective than blowing up 50 poor people on a Greyhound.

And again, it's really ridiculous to think that a bus fan/photographer would blow up a Greyhound. Sure, I hate the D4505, but that doesn't make me a terrorist.


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## rickycourtney

This conversation has taken a rather uncomfortable turn...

Maybe I'm cynical but I always thought Greyhound's policy of prohibiting photos had more to do with the fact that they didn't want anyone to capture an image of its of staff, equipment or procedures that could generate negative publicity, and as long as they made vague innuendos that the policy was for "security", a sizable portion of the population would accept it without further question.

And Andrew, in terms of having military guarding bus or rail stations, no thanks. Avoiding the inconvenience of security screenings is one of the main reasons why people travel by rail and bus. Plus, military guards carrying automatic rifles isn't really America's style.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, having paramilitary with weapons at train and bus stations doesn't really do anything. Terrorists can blow you up anyway. That being said, weapons can be used to scare away the suspicious loiterers that have severely tainted the reputation of the bus industry. My idea would be to hire a professional security squad carrying semi-automatic weapons and have them force suspicious people to leave at gunpoint. The suspicious people would hopefully be scared enough that they would just leave and not come back. The squad would then go on to the next station, drive away the predators, and do it again and again until the suspicious people stop coming back.

The squad shouldn't have to shoot anybody unless they are utterly stupid. I suggest that they only load blanks for firing warning shots. In the event that they are attacked, clubbing the fools with guns should be sufficient defense, while teaching them a lesson they won't forget.

Again, these guys are not for security checks, they're just going to scare away the people in sagging jeans and dirty T-shirts that hang out around the terminal, smoke, and beg for money. And they won't stand guard at any terminal, they will just go around the terminals booting out and scaring away predators. Bus terminals are not homeless shelters. Get out!

As for the photography ban, it's stupid because it's not enforceable anyway, and what's even more stupid is that I have been labeled a "potential terrorist" simply for being a bus fan.


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## Bob Dylan

Be careful what you ask for Swadian, you might just get it,

I usually enjoy your posts, but the thought of "Rent a Cops" carrying assault weapons in bus or rail stations is scarey!

Also, who is to say what persons are "suspicious", profiling people is not the American way and one person's suspicious subject is another person's grandfather!

Leave this idea for and places that really need it like Military Bases and Israel!


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## rickycourtney

It amuses me that you said it won't do anything... but then suggest paramilitary private security guards.

Again, this isn't China and that's not really America's style. Paramilitary private security guards aren't usually accepted by customers and in fact might serve to scare many of them away... especially if they're shooting blanks.

In terms of the people in and around the station, US law is pretty clear on this... it's not illegal to stand on public property to smoke and beg for money in sagging jeans and a dirty T-shirt. That being said, Greyhound is perfectly within its rights to call someone a trespasser for breaking their rules and asking them to leave (I'm pretty sure only law enforcement can *force* someone to leave).


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## Swadian Hardcore

If I had a bus line, what I would do is just go out there and ask them to leave. Now, what if they attack me? That's why I need a big gun to scare the crap out of them enough for them not to attack me. Now, if they're outside the terminal on the sidewalk, they don't have to leave. But I can ask them to leave again and again, and they probably will end up leaving sooner or later. I may have to convince them, but at least that gun will buy me time to negotiate with them instead of them just attacking me.

I'm not a rent-a-cop, and I'm not scary until I have to be. Again, I would only do this if I owned a bus line that ran there. I would make an announcement to my customers and tell them that I'm going to be brandishing a gun for a few minutes while running a security check. After all is said and done, I'll just put the gun away. No scaring away of customers, because there's no Chinese-style security guards armed with guns walking around, just a random security check that is aimed at discouraging and convincing degenerates to stay away from the bus terminal. If I keep asking them to leave, I'm hoping that eventually, they'll just leave.

I am not doing this the Chinese way, because if this was in China, I would take a bunch of buddies with me and force them to leave or just beat them up. In China, it is OK to beat up degenerates who are camped out around your business if they don't leave immediately.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I would make an announcement to my customers and tell them that I'm going to be brandishing a gun for a few minutes while running a security check.


That would make most Americans very uncomfortable. Even if that's legal here in the US (not sure if it is), most of your customers would never return.
I know in other countries it's normal to see military personnel on patrol in full uniform, carrying automatic weapons... but it's rare in America. Security checkpoints at most secured public buildings here in the US have no military present (other than those there for business reasons). In fact the US military is prohibited from being involved in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, if it's OK for rent-a-cops, it would OK for the owner of the business, right? Even if I lose most of the passengers that were there over those few minutes, the degenerates wouldn't come back, so future passengers wouldn't have to worry about them. Passengers are constantly getting driven away by degenerates. Besides, I'm sure I could soften up the situation with some jokes and humor. They trust me enough to be my customer, so they should trust me enough to keep them safe.

It's like radiotherapy. It kills both healthy cells and cancer cells, but if you don't get rid of the cancer cells, they'll invade more healthy tissue and kill the patient. Better to kill the cancer and have the healthy tissue grow back over time.

Do you have a better solution to deal with the degenerates?


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## rickycourtney

Sure. Hire unarmed security guards, teach them to be friendly, compassionate and focused on customer service first. I'd have them constantly sweep the waiting room, chatting with passengers and have them ask those who are disturbing others or abusing the facilities to leave. If they refuse, I'd have the security guards call the police and have them come remove that person.

If the situation was really bad I'd also consider hiring off-duty police officers for a few weeks to stand guard since they'd have the authority to remove someone on the spot.


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## rickycourtney

So since you're "waging war" with Greyhound... put yourself in my shoes.

You're taking a trip to Vancouver on Amtrak, but the schedule doesn't work for you on the return trip to Seattle. What would you do?

In my particular case, BoltBus tickets are $25, the Amtrak Thruway Motorcoach is $42 and Quick Shuttle is $59.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Existing unarmed security guards have proven useless and have failed to deal with degenerates, regardless of whether they are friendly to passengers or not. We need severe crackdowns on degenerates. We need to assert authority and control to defeat degenerates whenever and wherever possible. An iron fist is needed!

A degenerate who is leaning on the side of a bus terminal is technically touching bus line property. Even better, perhaps a bus line could purchase the sidewalk around their terminal to extend control.

I am not waging war on Greyhound. My signature only says that I am "waging war", it does not say that I am waging war on Greyhound. In fact, I am "waging war" on sophistry, degenerates, tobacco companies, bus industry professionals, Rent-a-Cops, American Seating, MCI, NJT, the EPA, Cummins, and the political party that tried to legalize marijuana. But no, I am not waging war on Greyhound.

However, I would like to point out that no matter how much I hate the aforementioned, I am NOT a terrorist. In fact, not only am I not a terrorist, but I would also "wage war" on terrorism, such as by supporting increased military intervention to defeat ISIS.


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## rickycourtney

While Greyhound's private security could be more effective... I'm not sure that a private company has the legal right to crack down on "degenerates" that are on its property. Like I said... I'm reasonably sure you're only legally allowed to ask someone to leave for trespassing. If they don't comply you can contact law enforcement.

Much of what you've suggested is borderline illegal and well outside of accepted social norms here in the United States.

I also noticed that you skirted answering my question.


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## andrewlhe

Too bad today's Charlottesville-Baltimore 3924 is a 2009 X3-45 (86022) and the seats are truly pieces of ****. The driver shouted at several guys who failed to put their luggage in the right compartment, and made an announcement later stating that the noise of bus engine made him do that and it's nothing personal.

And I didn't make that clear, paramilitary forces in China is often used against normal violent crimes cuz police in China are poorly armed and poorly trained. They are also used to deal with anything that involves large number of people when police alone is not enough, for example, to maintain order at railway station. Don't try to equate this with tanks on Tiananmen Square. Even fire departments in China is a branch of paramilitary force.

By the way today I saw P42DC 156 leading 20 Crescent. I assume it's the 40 anniversary paint?

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/n6c5P3


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## andrewlhe

Just now the bus driver made an announcement that we are going to stop to refuel and would never make it with what we have. And he told me it's ok to take pictures of his bus. 86022 refueling at Orange,VA.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/BYu944


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## rickycourtney

andrewlhe said:


> And I didn't make that clear, paramilitary forces in China is often used against normal violent crimes cuz police in China are poorly armed and poorly trained. They are also used to deal with anything that involves large number of people when police alone is not enough, for example, to maintain order at railway station.


I was already totally clear on that. It also has to do with the government having absolute power (or at least trying to act like they do). 
My point is... that's not how it works here. Most Americans are not used to seeing law enforcement officers or soldiers openly carrying large weapons in public places, except during an emergency. So most people equate large weapons with immediate danger.

Frankly, I like that officers aren't walking around in public with large rifles in their hands and I think most Americans would agree with me.



andrewlhe said:


> By the way today I saw P42DC 156 leading 20 Crescent. I assume it's the 40 anniversary paint?
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/n6c5P3


Yup. That's one of Amtrak's 40th anniversary heritage units. That one is in honor of Amtrak's first paint scheme.


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## andrewlhe

rickycourtney said:


> andrewlhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way today I saw P42DC 156 leading 20 Crescent. I assume it's the 40 anniversary paint?
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/n6c5P3
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. That's one of Amtrak's 40th anniversary heritage units. That one is in honor of Amtrak's first paint scheme.
Click to expand...

And strange enough, B32-8 #514 is used on that train too. First time to see a Amtrak loco other than P42 in Charlottesville.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/PwQGJ8


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## andrewlhe

Question about GLI bus tracker. If GLI is operating more than one bus for an overbooked schedule, which bus will be shown on the tracker? For example today's 1529.

Also, which bus should I board if there are two buses for one schedule, do I have an option to avoid one I don't like and board the other one? For example one of today's 1529 is obviously an X3-45 and I don't want to be on that for a whole night. I was pissed by #86022's non-leather premier which feels sticky. I doubted if someone had once poured some soda on it and it was never cleaned up. And the hand rest is broken just as one of your pictures shown. Other than space, which is kind of important for me, I must agree YZ feels better than that. However newer premiers are still better though.


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## neroden

Bluntly, police in most countries (such as France) where they carry automatic weapons, have a reputation for professionalism. Even the Chinese paramilitaries have a reputation for professionalism. In the US, cops don't have a reputation for professionalism and neither does the army; they have a reputation for wild-west behavior: incompetence, malice, coverups, and shooting innocent people. We don't want to give them any more weapons; actually I think normal police and security guards should be completely disarmed, like in the UK. Any cop who doesn't like this, good riddance to him; the goal is actually to get the cops with the bad attitude out.


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## andrewlhe

GLI is surely a magic business, always giving me surprises. Weeks ago I booked schedule 3924 for Baltimore at the date Mar 4, 2016. The website said the bus is scheduled to leave Charlottesville at 5:05pm. And by cross checking with their timetable on extranet, this time is correct. Guess what, the printed ticket stated I will leave at 4:50pm. I was sort of surprised at that time but since it's only a 15-min difference, I don't find it to be a big deal anyway.

Just now, I got a phone call from Dallas, GLI customer service! The lady told me that schedule is actually changed to 4:50pm! She told me that they will be emailing me a new ticket with new confirmation number balabala, but my ticket shows exactly 4:50pm.

Checking GLI website, this time is indeed changed to 4:50, effective Jan 13, 2016.

Interestingly enough, this bus runs AMTK thruway connection too, however, booking information on AMTK website remained unchanged.


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## rickycourtney

So my wife and I had a great trip up to Vancouver, BC this weekend for my birthday. What an amazing town!

Both the Amtrak Cascades train trip up and the BoltBus trip back were enjoyable and punctual.

The Amtrak trip was fantastic. Most of the journey is spent hugging the coast and the views are breathtakingly beautiful. Interstate 5 has nothing on that view. The only minor complaints I have about the Amtrak trip is that you're forced to wait in a ridiculously long line in Seattle to get seating assignment and that the train is forced to slow down quite significantly after crossing the border into Canada. It's my understanding that despite the rather sizable investments Washington State has made to improve the Cascades corridor, the BC government is unwilling to invest even enough to make the tracks smooth.

I was once again impressed by the customer service on BoltBus. While our driver wasn't as outgoing as previous drivers, she was friendly and courteous. The bus was a D4500 (#0887) and despite being built in September 2013, appeared to be nearly new inside. I couldn't find anything broken. The Premier seats were immaculate. I also found them to be reasonably comfortable for the 4 hour trip (my guess is that the foam in the seat cushion hasn't broken down). My only minor complaint about the BoltBus trip is that the schedule had way too much pad time baked into it. Traffic was very light departing Vancouver and there was no wait for our bus to go through U.S. Customs and Immigration. By the time we reached the first stop in Bellingham we were more than 30 minutes ahead of schedule. That means the normal 5 minute stop turned into a 35 minute stop. I just wish there was a way for the driver to depart early if all ticketed passengers were onboard. Of course, the pad time was appreciated when we hit traffic approaching Seattle... it was just enough that the bus arrived right on time.


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## Swadian Hardcore

It's not a D4500, it's a D4505. I beseech you not to confuse the two.

Yeah, some of the newer D4505s are OK. Not surprising considering NJT only wants 700,000 miles out of them. When they hit 700k, all hell breaks loose, or at least that's what happened with the older D4505s. Though #86544 is bad already, with its growling loud engine noise. I shouldn't forget #86558, either. The interior was clean and undamaged, but the fan belt broke.

BTW, the 2009 X3-45s are at roughly 800k miles. They have been reportedly worn out by the turn-and-burns in the East.

But anyway, Greyhound drivers are so stupid. They still think there's a driver shortage, when the big problem is the passenger shortage. With passengers fleeing, the driver shortage will soon turn into a driver surplus.

I'm hearing all about the 777-300ER's success in the airline industry. They've replaced most of the 747-400s, which is essentially the DL3. Unfortunately, the bus industry lacks a 777-300ER. And Prevost just reduced the fuel capacity of the X3-45 down to 192 gal (182 useable). The X3-45 is basically an A330-300. I won't compare narrowbodies to motorcoaches because there isn't that many different types of those.

I'm wondering if it's possible to build 4-axle 53-foot motorcoaches. Those would be cool.


----------



## rickycourtney

You beseech me?

What century is this?

Give me a break, I just made a typo.


----------



## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm wondering if it's possible to build 4-axle 53-foot motorcoaches. Those would be cool.


Anything is possible...

Remember the Prevost H5-60's?

I guess you mean a non-articulated 53 footer....

I suppose they could, since semi-trailer's are that length. But I don't think it would be possible to let the steering axle(s) turn a full 90 degrees to the side, to allow the kind of turning radius a tractor-trailer could achieve.

Besides that, there are too many terminal's and/or garages that could not handle a bus that long, without major modification. We had that problem at the PABT, when the 45 footers came out....we had to eliminate a line of parking spaces so that the buses could get in and out of the angled platforms.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hahaha! That was meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

The H5-60 wasn't that great because the articulation joint in the middle was hard to maintain and wasted space. A hypothetical H4-53 might be a good machine. The turning circle could be kept down with the extra axle and a steerable tag axle. Prevost already has IFS in the H3-45. The H4-45 could carry 68 passengers and a ton of luggage, too. I think the turning circle could be as little as 46'.

However, it may have to be banned from PABT considering its enormous congestion. But It would be fine in Reno.

I guess it would be the road equivalent of the A380, with a larger overall size than even the TD925. Other than that, a clean-sheet 45-foot design would also be great. It occurred to me that the G4500 could have been the 777-300ER if it had been successful and improved upon, but instead, it failed and ended up like the 777-300. By that analogy, Greyhound's fleet is similar to Thai Airways International or Korean Air, who both operate 747-400s, 777-300s, A330-300s, and used to operate the MD-11 (MC-12 analogy).


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## railiner

If you're going to compare buses with airliner's, wouldn't comparing an X3-45 with say a CRJ200 or the like, be more logical than wide-bodies?


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## Swadian Hardcore

It's not compared based on size, but on the capability of the vehicle within its class. The position of the X3-45 in the bus industry compares to the A330-300 in the airline industry. If there were a X3-40 with the same fuel capacity, that would be the A330-200. The timeline, operational history, and advancement of technology for their respective industries is also taken into account.

So the 102DL3 is the 747-400, the G4500 is perhaps the 777-300, the H3-45 is the A340-600, etc. Unfortunately, the D4505 doesn't compare to anything except perhaps an Il-96-400.

BTW, how come US bus lines don't expand into Mexico? Mexican bus lines are coming here, but we're not going there.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> BTW, how come US bus lines don't expand into Mexico? Mexican bus lines are coming here, but we're not going there.


I don't know much about that....do you suppose driver's wages might have something to do with it?


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## Bob Dylan

The reason has to do with treaties and trade agreements between the US and Mexico, especially the North American Trade Agreement between the US,Canada and Mexico started by Bush 41 and signed by Clinton in the 90s.

As most here know, it's taking years just to complete a deal with Canada in regards to doing Customs and Immigration in Montreal Central Station for the Adirondack and with the current Immigration hysteria raging in the land dont look for any foreign agreements between the US and Mexico to be finalized any time soon!


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound Moving Fresno Bus Depot


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Greyhound Moving Fresno Bus Depot


Greyhound must have been bleeding red ink maintaining their "white elephant", with the current level of service. The old Pacific Greyhound terminal dates back to when Greyhound buses were in and out of there like proverbial streetcars, around the clock. Those days are gone with the wind, so moving in with Amtrak is a no-brainer...


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## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> Greyhound must have been bleeding red ink maintaining their "white elephant", with the current level of service. The old Pacific Greyhound terminal dates back to when Greyhound buses were in and out of there like proverbial streetcars, around the clock. Those days are gone with the wind, so moving in with Amtrak is a no-brainer...


While it reflects the overall shrinking of Greyhound... it is a better station for passengers.

The old station in Fresno was 30,000 square feet and included a restaurant, a driver training facility and a 20 person dorm. The new station is just 2,500 square feet and has none of those amenities. The good news is that the new station is in a much safer area, with nearby businesses that will be popular with riders (including resturants and a convenience store) and is better connected to the transit system in Fresno (which is rather limited).


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## railiner

Let's just hope that some of the low-life 'predator's' that 'resided' at the old terminal, don't make the move with them....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I saw this photos on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/15194626808/. 

That doesn't look like any Greyhound interior to me. It's not a MCI, nor is it a Prevost, and it's not a Setra or Van Hool either. Does anybody know what bus model that is?

Also in the news, New Flyer has finalized their purchase of MCI: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2015-12-18-new-flyer.pdf.


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## railiner

Let's hope that New Flyer's ownership of MCI reflects in a positive result....'nuff said.....


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## rickycourtney

Agreed. New Flyer is a solid company. I'm excited to see what they can do with MCI.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm hoping that the D4505 is axed and the D4500CT is officially turned into a dedicated commuter coach while a new clean-sheet design capable of replacing the 102DL3 and J4500 is introduced, without the option of later being used for commuter service.

Back in the GMC days, there was the Parlour series for the private sector and the New Look series for the public sector. It's not a coincidence that those were the greatest days of the bus industry. Heck, I wish the D4500CT would get axed too, but NJT just _had_ to order so many of them. That wouldn't have been so bad if the G4500 had worked like it was supposed to, but we all know it didn't.

BTW, does anyone know what bus interior that is in the picture? The photographer seems to be another hippie backpacker with kein knowledge.


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## railiner

Swadian, I've looked at that link several times, and all I can see is the exterior of 6066, and a lot of reflection off the windshield...can't really see much of the interior.

Am I missing something?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Uh, you mean the link to the MCI press release? That seems to work fine.

Anyway, the Reno-Denver is only running Reno-Salt Lake City or Reno-Steamboat Springs these days. I don't know if this is because of the holiday travel season or because Greyhound is looking to cut more service in the West. Perhaps Greyhound would like to cut Reno-Denver too, if that wouldn't leave another big gap in their network?

Blue G #7270 came here, as well as some X3-45s.


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## rickycourtney

I feel like one of the first things New Flyer should do is come up with a clean sheet design for a commuter coach.

In my opinion the current offerings leave much to be desired.

The D4500CT has a comfortable ride and can pack in a lot of high back seats. But there are some big downsides to using the D4500CT, mainly that it has a single, narrow door and very high floors making boarding slow and making it ill suited for any route where passengers need to both board and exit at the same stop. The layout also means loading wheelchairs takes a huge amount of time.

The Xcelsior in the suburban configuration is much better for situations where passengers board and exit mid-route. With low floors passengers board faster and loading wheelchairs is quick. But they're aren't terribly comfortable, they have too many awkward seats (aisle facing or low back) and the ride is lousy.

There has to be some sort of a Goldilocks configuration between these two models, that offers a lot of high back seats, at least two doors and either has low floors or is a more standard high floor.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I wish New Flyer would do that, as that would eliminate the need for the D4500CT (thereby also killing the D4505), but they already failed with the D45S Viking and NJT continues to order hoards of D4500CTs. They might not be interested in developing a new commuter coach, which indirectly means Prevost will continued to eat up their private sector sales.

I was hoping NJT would order something else, forcing New Flyer-MCI to design a new dedicated commuter coach to replace the D4500CT and D4505. Then MCI could make a J4500 version with the G4500's long wheelbase (J4505?) that would counter the X3-45, leading to a lineup of New Commuter Coach (K4500?), New Intercity Coach (J4505?), and the best-selling Charters & Tours Coach (J4500).

But at this point, I guess MCI could make a J4505 to replace the D4505, but they probably won't make a new commuter coach.

As for a better commuter design, I think New Flyer could combine the D40HF with the D40LF. It would have a small low-floor section at the front for easy boarding and a long high-floor section throughout the rest of the bus. Boarding would be easy and there would be a wheelchair ramp rather than a lift. The low-floor segment at the front would have the standard double wheelchair positions and fold-up seats. All the rest of the bus would be classic high-floor.

Speaking of wheelchair lifts, I discovered this silversides 102DL3 with a rear-mounted lift: http://www.cariboucoach.ca/private_page.php?id=19.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I saw this photos on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/15194626808/.
> 
> That doesn't look like any Greyhound interior to me. It's not a MCI, nor is it a Prevost, and it's not a Setra or Van Hool either. Does anybody know what bus model that is?
> 
> Also in the news, New Flyer has finalized their purchase of MCI: http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2015-12-18-new-flyer.pdf.





Swadian Hardcore said:


> Uh, you mean the link to the MCI press release? That seems to work fine.


No, not the press release....thought you were referring to the first link....the Flickr photo.....


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## rickycourtney

I HIGHLY doubt that New Flyer would stop sales of commuter coaches. In fact I'm reasonably sure that getting into commuter coach sales was exactly why New Flyer purchased MCI. It's a big part of the transit industry that New Flyer had no part in.

One of the things that New Flyer did when they designed the Xcelsior was they looked at the interior first and then built the rest of the bus. By tweaking the placement of the rear axle they squeezed 19 seats into the rear high floor section and only two are transverse (aisle facing) seats, compared to 15 seats/6 transverse on the old LF series. They also adjusted the size of the rear platform to increase headroom, eliminate the transverse seats near the rear door and curved the steps up to the high floor section to encourage passengers to exit from the rear door.

If they take the same sort of passenger-first approach to a commuter coach, I'm sure they can come up with something great.

I mean, there's a lot of ways to tweak the design. You can definitely make the coach 45 feet (since most commuter coaches are already 45 footers) there should be a good way to add a rear door to the design and since it goes unused in commuter coaches, you can definitely eliminate the baggage storage compartments.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ooops, that Flickr picture was a mistake. Sorry.

This is the one I was referring to: https://www.flickr.com/photos/yinyangphotos/23877254355.

That interior has a curved headliner, like a MCI, but the parcel racks definitely aren't MCI and the window mullions don't look like MCI either. I checked Dina interior and they're Dina. Definitely not Van Hool, Setra, or Prevost either.

So, I don't know what it could be.


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## railiner

Not sure, but it looks like an MC-9 to me.... :unsure:


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think that's it! I forgot that the MC-9 has different parcel racks from the MC-12 (which has 96A3 parcel racks) though I believe the MC-9SP has 96A3 parcel racks too.

How the heck he got to ride on a Greyhound MC-9? AFAIK those have been long gone. The photo isn't dated and he must think I'm a stupid fool for asking him the bus model.

BTW, those two guys meet my definition of "degenerate", lol!


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## railiner

He did say that it was from a lifetime of travel....


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## Swadian Hardcore

He did upload this "1980" photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/yinyangphotos/23775238411/.

I don't understand why he took a self-portrait of himself looking stupid, but OK.

Hey, DL3 #30986 was here in Reno yesterday, and to my surprise it left on the last run to San Francisco rather than heading back east. The Reno-Denver is still only running Reno-Salt Lake City. Those passengers along US 40 are going to be pissed unless Greyhound refunded all their tickets. I think Greyhound is about to discontinue that segment. #UT86398, which used to be a regular on the Reno-Denver, is doing the Portland-Los Angeles today.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Does anyone know the actual floor space of the 102DL3? I know the exterior is 102" wide but the interior looks to be more like 98" or 96" because the dual-layer sidewalls are pretty thick. Interior length is probably about 442" (13x34"), but there's a lot of inconsistent legroom seats. How much is the actual space available?

Also, GLC appears to have removed the TVs from their DL3s with the rebuilds. They were pretty silly anyway. But GLI bought some second-hand DL3s and rebuilt them without removing the TVs. Instead, they just covered up the screens. How hard is it to remove the TVs?


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## beebopper

Ten G4500s came with flat screen tvs (7271-7280)! They were stolen within a year! They never removed the TVs out of the 8800 series coaches!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Didn't those G4500s also come with tray tables? I actually rode one of them in Texas, #7274. Of course it's just like all the other Blue G's now. If the TVs were stolen, I'm sure the tray tables were also stolen. Guess it's pretty easy to remove the TVs.

Do you happen to know how much floor space is available on the DL3? I was wondering how much seat pitch there would be if they reduced capacity down to 47 or 43 passengers.


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## beebopper

Table trays were built into the seat and not stolen! The flat screens were easily removeable!


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## Swadian Hardcore

What happened to the tray tables? Did Greyhound remove them? Wouldn't be surprised if they did.

D4505 #LA86406 seems to be running in the West now. Really weird. I heard that's one of the worst D4505s! How are loads over Christmas and New Year's? I saw that Schedule 1006 Miami-New York City had two extra sections yesterday and again today! Today the three units are DL3s #85787, #6378, and #6928.

#6541 running the Denver-Reno today! About time a DL3 came here again! Too bad it's probably too cold for me to visit the terminal to see it. At least Greyhound is running Denver-Reno again.


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## beebopper

They pulled them out during the rebuild!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound has taken delivery of 5 new 2016 MCI D4505s, #86567 and #0136-0139. All are powered with Cummins ISX12 425hp SCR engines. This brings Greyhound's D4505 fleet up to 207 units. I still don't understand why these units have weird numbers and their serial numbers are also not consecutive.

I was on BusTracker today and found numerous delayed schedules. I checked a dozen schedules and probably ten or eleven of them were over 15 minutes late. Many were late from the beginning of the run and the Denver-Reno keeps piling up more delays down the route. It appears that drivers in the West are intentionally delaying all their schedules.


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## Caesar La Rock

While I was on a Gillig BRT, I saw an Ex-Greyhound MC-12 all white on the local roads. Those things are still kicking around despite them leaving the hound years ago.


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## railiner

MC-12 2544 is still alive and well. Was set up as the "mobile command post" at the rented 29th street lot over the holiday period..... of course, it no longer is used to carry passengers. It has an office and tool room interior and a few bunk beds....still in its white paint scheme....


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## Swadian Hardcore

#2544 only has about 2 million miles on it which isn't that much considering there are DL3s with more miles operating revenue service.

I read that Iberia had a 747-200B with something like 120,000 flying hours on it which would equate to approximately 65 million miles! Of course it probably didn't have that many cycles because IB used them on flights from Spain to the Americas. I wonder how many hours N661US or N174UA has.

Greyhound has deployed more Detroit-powered X3-45s to Los Angeles. They should be reaching 900,000 miles soon. Meanwhile, all G4500s and 102DL3s appear to have moved east. D4505s still dominate the San Francisco-Reno and Reno-Denver routes.


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## Caesar La Rock

It's too bad I didn't get a picture of the 12 I caught, but I'm glad to see them around. I know a number of companies have 12s, I just need to not be lazy looking for them.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I must say that I have nothing but disdain for mom-and-pop (privately-owned) bus operators. They act like arrogant, stupid pricks that have no clue what they're doing and just hide away in the charter business wrangling with each other for clients while putting forth an aura of "industry professionalism". Most of these fools use Van Hools, D4505s, and J4500s because they don't know better and they still think they're doing a great job.

Just look at stupid Orange Belt and Silver State for examples of mom-and-pop stupidity in the bus industry. Mom-and-pop bus lines have contributed to the overall degradation of new motorcoach quality by ordering inferior products and the lowest common denominator, just like NJT.


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## Caesar La Rock

From what I was old last year, the reason companies like Van Hool, Setra, Jonckheere, LAG, etc. all came into the US (mid 80s), was due to the fact European tourists and customers didn't like the buses that were being used at the time.

IDK how true that is, but as for build quality on coaches and buses in general. Buses overall have declined in quality and it doesn't help that so much EPA junk is stuffed into the buses, making reliability a problem on them.

As for mom and pop companies, some are good and some are bad. The good ones like Mears, Annett, Cruzado, TraveLynx, and Red Coach are impressive. Then again, those companies haven't bought from MCI in a while, minus TraveLynx.

They have MCI D4505s and I think some MC-12s left?, Van Hool C2045s, and Volvo 9700s. Speaking of which, here is the ex-hound working for TraveLynx. It's an old video, but most companies around here have the same buses they bought six or more years ago.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, you know about the D4505 and C2045, so you know TravelLynx isn't really a good company.

Perhaps the bus industry would be better off without companies like TravelLynx. After all, if they didn't exist, the D4505 probably wouldn't exist too. At least the C2045 was cheap.

Without mom-and-pop bus lines, the MC-12 would be dead and buried too, instead of just dead and not buried. Lentzsch miscalculated his fleet. You either go all or you go nothing, not halfway.


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## Caesar La Rock

TraveLynx is actually a good company. I wouldn't judge what coaches they use, just because of bad experiences with Greyhound. Everyone maintains buses differently compared to Greyhound and in some cases better.

Greyhound just can't maintain stuff as well as they use too these days and it's sad for anyone that's been riding them for a long time. The other companies, Mears has been Van Hool loyal for a long time (1998), Annett and Red Coach uses Prevost H3-45s.

ABC Companies is not too far away from Mears' garage, so they can order new buses or parts easily. Annett has been using Prevost coaches since the mid 80s and that relationship is still strong to this day.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Any company that only offers charter services and uses D4505s and C2045s is not a good company. Maintenance and driver training doesn't matter. There is already way too many charter companies and they are doing no good for anybody by staying in the market. Management is incompetent. Every charter bus is a problem. Each charter bus added to the market is adding a problem. No Routes = No Good. Period.

We need a lot less charters and a lot more lines ASAP!


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## Caesar La Rock

Are you sure about that, cause maintenance and good driver training does matter. A machine or machines aren't good when you fail to maintain them. A properly trained driver goes a long way too. Charter companies with those said buses, the good ones, seem to be doing very well for themselves.

New D4500CTs are out of the question for charter companies. The last time DL3s (or D4500CTs) were relevant, it was during the last decade of the 20th century. D4500CTs are mostly bought by transit systems and that's really about it.

Why should other companies go for a bus whose design dates back to Greyhound's last glory years when you can go for one that is relatively newer? Academy Bus and Megabus are both giving everyone competition around here. That has caused everyone else to step up their A game with how they do business.


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## rickycourtney

Some interesting facts from a New Flyer/MCI fact sheet:

MCI's sales are 35% public sector (transit agencies, universities, prisons) and 65% private sector (charter, line-haul)

MCI sold 835 new coaches and 312 pre-owned coaches

Virtually all of those public sector purchases would be new coaches... so doing a little math...

400: new public sector coaches

435: new private sector coaches

312: pre-owned private sector coaches

So sales of new coaches, which I would imagine are far more profitable, are split more or less evenly between the public and private sector. Public agencies are also much more likely to spring for expensive powertrain options like diesel electric hybrids and CNG fuel. So that better explains the importance of the public sector to MCI. It also explains why New Flyer, a company who sells a majority of its product to the public sector, would want purchase MCI.


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## railiner

Interesting letter and attachment....thanks for posting it.

I wonder what if any, influence or synergy may occur as a result of Marcopolo's 19.9% ownership of the company?

At first glance, it would appear to just be an investment, but who knows in the future.....


----------



## rickycourtney

railiner said:


> I wonder what if any, influence or synergy may occur as a result of Marcopolo's 19.9% ownership of the company?
> 
> At first glance, it would appear to just be an investment, but who knows in the future.....


I found that interesting too.I also found it interesting that, at this point, Daimler doesn't own a major share of New Flyer (they owned 10% of MCI). Daimler was supportive of the merger and has agreed to continue to allow MCI to be the US distributor for its Setra coaches and use its Detroit Diesel engines. I guess Daimler was impressed by New Flyer when the company picked up the parts and support business when it shut down Orion.


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## Swadian Hardcore

New Flyer's mission statement alone is better than MCI's.

But anyway, it's not surprising that MCI still sells a bit more private sector than public sector motorcoaches, since the J4500 is still (AFAIK) the bestseller and it's almost only used by the private sector. Those 400 public sector units are probably all New D's. These figures mean the D4505 is dead as a private sector coach, even though Greyhound took 4 more state-owned units in January 2016. Anything more than token amounts of D4505 sales would de-throne the J4500 as bestseller.

Of course, if the J4500 were no longer bestseller, that could change everything. If it is still bestseller, Prevost can't have overtaken MCI by many units. Since neither Prevost nor MCI has claimed another bestseller, I'll assume the J4500 is still bestseller, and that all 4 models (D, J, H, & X) sell about the same number overall. That is, unless Van Hool's CX45 is now bestseller. 

Companies don't get sold for no reason. MCI must have been doing poorly for KPS to sell them to New Flyer.

Meanwhile, the CPTDB joke is still ongoing, as somebody copied the Texas DMV VIN list to the Greyhound roster, yet neglected to account for units transferred to Americanos.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

How does Greyhound deal with customs when crossing the border on the Chicago-Toronto route? Do they pre-clear in the Detroit/Windsor terminals or do they clear at the Peace Bridge?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Aha, I was just on Airliners and saw this:
"The 737MAX is the slightly to largely inferior offering compared to the 32xNeo; the 787 is too expensive to build and won't command the selling price Boeing hoped for due to the A330/A330neo; the 777 Classic is largely doomed because of the A350 and the 747 is, for all intents and purposes, dead and buried. Boeing's hopes now hinges on the 3rd evolution of the 777, hoping Airbus will sit still with their A350 development, and a vague plan of coming up with a A321neo 'killer'.

At the same time Boeing are raising the dividends, buying back stock and paying out bonuses - if the word on this thread are to be taken at face value.

I'm quite certain Boeing will not go even mildly down the drain, but it's not the first time the company has lost its way on the commercial side of the business. I think their biggest problems are that the 787 has failed to deliver on its dual promises of much lower production costs and angel of death to the A330, that the 737MAX has not been able to present a convincing enough argument, and that they are still embracing the MCD culture of applying ever increasing layers of lipstick to their pigs, all whilst wallowing in corporate arrogance. The 777X won't save either of that, if it'll save anything at all."

Reminds me of MCI, eh? Except MCI doesn't even have a 777X.

Then I saw this:
"In 2008-1010 I pointed out that with the unprecedented overruns in the 787 program, I was reasonably convinced that the program would not be able to break even to well over 1,000 frames.

I was laughed at and told I was stupid and knew nothing about airplane programs. Well, with 1,143 frames on order, Boeing is still not able to make a profit off of the 787. And now, with the information in this article, it seems as if the 787 program may never be profitable.

In general, I've seen a sense of arrogance and complacency out of Boeing since around 2002-3. Looks like those chickens are coming home to roost."

Reminds me of being "told" by the "bus industry professionals".


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## rickycourtney

*crickets*

Wow... it's gone awfully quiet around here.

Where's Swadian these days?


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## Caesar La Rock

I guess this thread should come back in some way. Let's see how this works out. I could make some time for Greyhound news.

http://www.pe.com/articles/city-799800-greyhound-riverside.html

So Riverside is threatening to evict Greyhound from the downtown terminal. The real question is has this been a problem before?


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## Caesar La Rock

I don't know how up to date this bus fleet is, but looks like Greyhound updated the page for the fleet on their site.

https://www.greyhound.com/en/discover-greyhound/our-bus-fleet


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## railiner

Caesar La Rock said:


> I don't know how up to date this bus fleet is, but looks like Greyhound updated the page for the fleet on their site.
> 
> https://www.greyhound.com/en/discover-greyhound/our-bus-fleet


I wonder how up to date that is, too....

And they did leave some of the 'oddballs' off that list....the various Van Hools, H3-45's, EL-3's, etc.....unless those are all gone....not sure.....


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## Caesar La Rock

railiner said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how up to date this bus fleet is, but looks like Greyhound updated the page for the fleet on their site.
> 
> https://www.greyhound.com/en/discover-greyhound/our-bus-fleet
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how up to date that is, too....
> 
> And they did leave some of the 'oddballs' off that list....the various Van Hools, H3-45's, EL-3's, etc.....unless those are all gone....not sure.....
Click to expand...

Seeing as how none of those other buses are listed, it's possible they forgot those oddballs exist.


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## rickycourtney

I still regularly see the oddball H3-45 units here in Seattle.

Also, I've been seeing a lot of X3-45 coaches over the last few months. The dominant coach seems to change from time to time up here... it used to be the G4500, then the D4505 and now the X3-45.


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## Caesar La Rock

rickycourtney, thanks for info on the sightings. At least we know that oddball is around still. As for why the G4500s and D4500s are getting moved, maybe a reliability thing?


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## Caesar La Rock

To the question about Greyhound's Van Hools, well those buses are still running. I saw pictures of them on Flickr, taken on the 1st of May.


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## Caesar La Rock

Someone I know of, who is traveling on Greyhound saw a 102-DL3 broken down on I-4. The bus was eventually fixed and it met up with his D4505 at a rest stop. The D4505 he's on is 86584, a 2015 D4505.

The DL3 that brokedown is numbered 6928, a 2000 model. It's on a semi-express run to Miami and it also left the D4505 and my buddy in the dust. DL3s are generally used on the Miami to Orlando runs


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## CCC1007

Anyone seen our friend in Reno?


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## railiner

CCC1007 said:


> Anyone seen our friend in Reno?


Looks like his last post on this forum was 10March....he has possibly moved on to some other forum..... :unsure:


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## Caesar La Rock

That seems to be the case as he's been quiet for two months now. He could also be busy was something else, IDK.


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## Caesar La Rock

Someone I know of traveled by Greyhound once again. He rode on 40187 to Miami from Daytona Beach. 40187 is a 2001 D4500 from Vermont Transit Lines. It was on the Miami Local run.

He also saw 86540 heading to Orlando at a rest stop. Another person took a picture of G4500 7270 heading to the garage I presume, since it didn't appear to be in service.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Hi, I'm back! 

Check this out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27968608695/.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hi, I'm back!
> 
> Check this out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27968608695


Welcome back!

That is bizarre that they would send a bus out like that on a long trip from a location that has a major garage facility....

(assuming that it left from Denver that way, and not that it happened after departing Denver....in which case that is a pretty nice 'temp. repair)....


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## Swadian Hardcore

He says that the photo was taken at Colorado Springs and that it arrived there with the broken window. Colorado Springs is the next stop after Denver, and I'm not sure Greyhound has the capability to do a cardboard repair like that in Colorado Springs. It may have been repaired in Denver and departed that way. Driver Kit said Greyhound doesn't stock X3-45 parts in Denver.


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## railiner

So they could have shipped the part to Denver....

Working it to Dallas? That's a long way to send the bus in that shape for repair, IMHO....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Concurred, it is a long way, so I'm guessing Greyhound just didn't want to spend the money to ship the part to Denver.

Or maybe the window did break between Denver and Colorado Springs, even though that's not a treacherous segment. Maybe someone threw a rock at the bus. Some jerk once throw a rock at #6656 in Oroville, breaking the driver's windshield. That warranted a replacement bus.


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## railiner

Shipping the part from their own supply costs them virtually nothing as a 'company shipment' on their own schedule...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Ah well, then I guess they're just too lazy to do it.

I found two videos. One involves passengers forcing another passenger off the bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7e2yc_ZgnM.

The other is an old Greyhound promo film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw47tMUWzvE.

What happens to a passenger is forced off a bus by the other passengers?


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## railiner

I did not need to see the first video of a bunch of low-life's acting out.

I did very much enjoy the promo film....what a contrast between the two sets of passenger's from the two video's.....

Also enjoyed looking at some of the other youtube video's linked...liked the photo's of the WWII era around Cincinnati....I well remember that old terminal, which lasted until around 1970, when GL went on a tear, replacing major terminals around the country at a rate of about one a month....


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## Caesar La Rock

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hi, I'm back!
> 
> Check this out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27968608695/.


Nice to see you again how are you?


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## Swadian Hardcore

The driver in the first video ought to have kicked all those troublemaking passengers off the bus. He was being too nice.

A passenger on #86294 is currently complaining about HVAC failure on the Dallas-Los Angeles route. Very bad in the desert heat! This seems like more of a problem with that batch of X3-45s.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hi, I'm back!
> 
> Check this out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27968608695/.


Welcome back Swad. That seems dangerous... and at the very least it's a horrible customer experience.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Sorry, I can no longer post regularly on this forum. I'll come back once in a while. I'm not very active on Facebook either; I'd like to stay in contact via PM.

Yes, that was a good way to drive away customers. It may be safe enough but it's not good for business.

Greyhound discontinued Vancouver-Penticton-Osoyoos. Now passengers are routed through West Kelowna. Vancouver-Penticton-Calgary is still operated.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'm looking for information on VIN 1M8PDMPA81P054083. It's either Greyhound Canada #1165 or #1166, but which one is it?

BoltBus introduced a new entertainment system. Does anyone know who is providing the service? Greyhound Wi-Fi is provided by SinglePoint.

How's the CAT C10? Isn't it just a 3176B? I thought those weren't too bad.


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## mightyjoe1201

The c-10 cat is basically a throw away engine. The few I drove in trucks went the greatest.


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## mightyjoe1201

Hey guys, sorry for the long absence but I've had lots going on plus I've gone thru several phones.

I'm currently on a trip from Cambridge, Ohio to Nashville, Tennessee. I'm on Greyhound bus 86316. It's a D4505. My first time on one of these. To be honest I'm not thrilled with it. It rattles and doesn't feel solid like the older 102DL3 out older buses. Oh by the way, I recently moved from Hazleton, PA to Cambridge, Ohio to be with my fiance more even tho I'm going back driving a truck. Lol.


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## mightyjoe1201

I just switched buses in Columbus Ohio. I'm now in Baron's bus lines bus 171 headed to Cincinnati where I will switch again. This is a relatively new J4500. Much better then that D4505 of Greyhound I was on


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## mightyjoe1201

If I could get pics I will but it's at night so I may not be able to.


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## mightyjoe1201

So far the wifi sucks. Couldn't connect right on the Greyhound bus it was slow. This bus of Baron's has no connection.


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## mightyjoe1201

Made my switch in Cincinnati. This time on a Greyhound prevost X3-45 number 86264. Much more comfortable then the list two. Got seat to myself for now.


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## mightyjoe1201

Wifi actually works right in this bus.


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## mightyjoe1201

Does anyone know when Greyhound started using drivecams on their buses? The company I just left out then in our buses at home when they took the contract over. I always felt it was just a way for the company to spy on us.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I've ridden #86316. Yeah, it's pretty bad, eh?

I've never been on a Barons J4500. Glad to hear it is much better than the D4505. #86264 is one of the newer X3-45s.

Greyhound has been using DriveCams since at least 2013. For safety reasons, I agree with the use of DriveCams, but there should be enough trust between drivers and the employer that "spying" does not become an issue.


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm just glad that 86316 was only for about an hour and a half trip. Lol

The Baron's bus was comfortable except that there were very few seats open. I had to share with someone.

My experience with drivecams is the company bitchs about what you did wrong instead of trying to help make it better. At least that's how Easton Coach Co does it. They took over the contract for the city buses where I just moved from. They are helpful when the is an accident or unruly passenger.


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## mightyjoe1201

For a newer bus 86264 has quite a few miles on it. I was sitting in the first seat by the door and was able to see the odometer. It was shooting about 467000 miles


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## railiner

Interesting, your mention of the camera's....

I took my annual recurrent training a couple of weeks ago, at our HQ in Hurley, NY (Kingston area)....

One of the topics we covered was the camera's.

The Company affirmed that they are never used "to spy" on driver's...they are only used after an accident, or passenger incident, such as someone falling.

The company can not view them in "real-time". After an incident, they can download the appropriate time period onto a thumb drive, and then view the various camera's on a computer.

After a thorough demonstration of the camera's capability, and full discussion, our driver's now accept them as more of a benefit, then a threat....


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## mightyjoe1201

I wish the ones Easton Coach has were like that. If you got the brakes to hard or hit a pothole to hard or take a turn to test it triggers the camera along with an accident triggering it. The driver can also reach over and trigger it. Easton will complain that the driver was doing something wrong, I.e. eating, drinking taking to passengers when they ask a question or even looking at a mirror when the incident happened. They don't ask what could be done to improve. They just say don't do it again or else.


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## Swadian Hardcore

There's good bosses and bad bosses. Looks like Easton is one of the latter. I'd even venture to say that it may be useful to be able to view footage in real time, though it would most likely require a wireless connection.

#86264 is a 2013 X3-45, so 467,000 sounds about right. The average Greyhound runs 130,000 miles a year.


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## mightyjoe1201

In some cases of have to agree with you. Especially after a wreck being able to view it immediately. I still disagree with the idea of a camera system like drivecams. If it didn't record the driver of like it more


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## railiner

If you do your job right, you should not be concerned with camera's.....nowaday's, people everywhere are recording on their phone's and posting on You-tube, etc.

Even in the old day's, companies had "spotter's" riding schedules....so nothing is really new....

And before there were Saucon and other electronic recording devices, we used old-fashioned tachograph's (recording speedometer's), with their wax charts...


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## mightyjoe1201

Speaking of recording devices, I noticed Greyhound is apparently holding out on going to e logs. The driver I had for the last leg of my trip was using pair logs. I found out in orientation yesterday at the trucking Co I'm at that everyone including bus companies have to run e logs by December of this year.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You means ELDs? I personally don't see the problem with them. My experience with electronics is that they are better than recording on paper. Piles of papers that could get lost or torn are a pain in the butt.


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## mightyjoe1201

Yeah. I'm old school and would rather a paper log. It's more beneficial to the driver. With paper logs you can still get home if you run out of hours minutes from home where with e logs you have to stop even if you are 15 minutes from home and take a 10 hour break if your a truck driver or 8 good if a bus driver. Paper logs you can play with. Companies and dot like e logs better. They are supposed to make us "safer" . Which is a total crock.


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## Devil's Advocate

I read that the GOP is busy making good on their promises to roll back safety restrictions on maximum duty hours for commercial drivers so it looks like you'll be able to legally drive while exhausted real soon. The company I work for currently has to print thousands of paper tickets for hundreds of trucks, which is both expensive and time consuming to support. As the move to electronic records becomes ubiquitous we intend to follow the trend and replace the physical hardcopy paperwork with digital forms and signatures.


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## mightyjoe1201

I don't know where you might think that I'm one that wants to run even when I'm tired. I'm not. Only time I will run over my hours is when it means getting home. I don't want to be stuck on the road another day because I ran out of hours an hour from home. And it's been proven by the experts and by the trucking companies that the current hours of service laws are more dangerous then the original ones we had. The ones bus drivers have to follow. Most drivers have realized they can make just add much if not more money running legal then running illegal.


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## mightyjoe1201

And to tell you the truth. I don't like having to sign elections forms. My signature doesn't look right.


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## Swadian Hardcore

No political discussions here, please!

I agree with Joe that drivers should be allowed some leeway to get home - maybe up to an hour. This can be built into ELDs. Most drivers don't want to die and will not risk driving when seriously fatigued, especially not if they own the vehicle. I still personally prefer ELDs vastly over paper logs.

I'm fine with passenger-carrying HOS rules as they stand and I am also fine with ELDs on scheduled motorcoaches. I do not know enough about trucking to have a definite opinion about property-carrying HOS rules.

Speaking of HOS, does a motorcoach carrying Package Express or pulling a cargo trailer count as a "passenger-carrying vehicle" or "property-carrying vehicle"?


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## mightyjoe1201

I'm some ways I agree with you Swadian. Unfortunately the regulations don't allow for time to get home. You run out of hours dot doesn't care if you are an hour or you are 15 minutes from home. You still have to stop for a break.

As to your question about coaches. If they are carrying people, regardless of any packages or trailers they are still a bus and follow those hos rules.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Then I have to agree that they should let a hour of leeway to get home. ELDs can easily allow that if the regulations did. But, of course, not when carrying passengers and certainly not when fatigued.


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## mightyjoe1201

Exactly. Tho I don't understand why passenger IE buses are still on the original hos when the stupid special interest groups said they were unsafe and convince the government to change them for us truckers. It should have been for both. Even tho the current hos is more dangerous then the original ones


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## Swadian Hardcore

Then let's just change the truck HOS back to the current passenger HOS.

Are those air pockets in the new seat covers?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/33081871035/sizes/o/

That's a 102DL3.


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## Caesar La Rock

Well Prevost has been awarded a large contract for 360 buses from Greyhound.

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_release/12345744/prevost-awarded-large-greyhound-contract

Greyhound Lines Inc. , based in Dallas Texas, has awarded Prevost a contract for up to 360 motorcoaches. The three year deal specifies the delivery of the first 60 coaches in 2017 with the option to purchase the balance over a 3 year period. This is the single largest contract in Prevost history.

“Our team is quite excited to be able to build Greyhound buses again. We greatly value our long standing relationship with GLI and are appreciative that they have chosen Prevost as their brand of choice,” said Francois Tremblay, Prevost vice president/general manager. “We believe product quality and exceptional service support made all the difference in their decision. ”

“We are pleased to continue our partnership with Prevost over the next few years. The quality of buses they produce will help us to keep setting the highest standard for transporting customers across North America,” said Dave Leach, president & CEO, Greyhound. “Our customers desire to travel in the safest and most comfortable bus available; motorcoaches from Prevost allow us to fulfill that need for them.”

Prevost Vice President, North American Sales, Jack Forbes stated: “It is always a pleasure to work with our long-term partners at Greyhound & First Group. A true team effort went into the bid process that brought us to securing this contract and our relationship with GLI will continue to be a team effort. From Sales to Manufacturing to the best Aftermarket Support team in the industry, we are all committed to the success of this partnership.”


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## railiner

That's great news for GLI...I suppose they will all be X3's...

It says that, that is the largest single order in Prevost history....that may be, but I recall when Greyhound Lines would buy that many coaches in just one year.....(sigh)


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## railiner

In light of that news above, DL-3, and G fans....better ride 'em while you can...the handwriting is on the wall....and I don't think GLI is expanding their fleet, just updating it.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yes, they are all X3-45s. Glad to say I recently got a ride on #6498.  Perhaps I'll make some lemonade...

Railiner, want to meet in NYC?


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## Swadian Hardcore

I'd like to understand axle ratios more. With a Series 60/B500, what's the absolute best axle ratio for fuel economy, performance notwithstanding?


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## ehbowen

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'd like to understand axle ratios more. With a Series 60/B500, what's the absolute best axle ratio for fuel economy, performance notwithstanding?


If there was a single best answer to that question, bus manufacturers wouldn't have to offer a selection of axle ratios. While I'm no automotive engineer, I would presume that they take the curves of fuel consumption vs. horsepower and match it up with the anticipated normal operating speed (usually 65 mph, but used to be 55 mph, and could possibly increase in the future) and the grades on which the bus is to be driven...it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have great economy on the flat if you serve Colorado and your buses will spend a lot of time lugging their way up mountain grades with fuel economy in the tank (pardon the pun).


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## Swadian Hardcore

Fair enough. Then, what axle ratio (for Series 60/B500) is the best for MPG on the flat and what is the best for traction in the mountains?


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## railiner

I am not sure the manufacturer's offer optional axle ratio's, but if they do, the lower gear (higher numerically), gives more power; and the higher gear (lower numerically), gives better economy...


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## rickycourtney

Greyhound has inked a contract for up to 360 Prevost X3-45 motorcoaches.

The three-year deal specifies that Prevost deliver the first 60 coaches in 2017.

Greyhound will then have the option to purchase the balance of the buses over a three-year period.

http://www.pressrepublican.com/news/local_news/prevost-lands-biggest-contract-in-its-history/article_c7dcefdd-67e7-5422-9dde-95efbd3410fa.html


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## railiner

I recall when Greyhound Lines purchased that many in just one year...(sigh).....


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## NativeSon5859

Doing a New Orleans - Atlanta local, Atlanta-Orlando express, Orlando-Baton Rouge local, and a BTR-N.O commuter run over the course of next week. If anyone's interested I'll post a report and/or some updates!


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## railiner

NativeSon5859 said:


> Doing a New Orleans - Atlanta local, Atlanta-Orlando express, Orlando-Baton Rouge local, and a BTR-N.O commuter run over the course of next week. If anyone's interested I'll post a report and/or some updates!


Yes, please do...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Operations are barely distinguished between locals and expresses anymore. It essentially is just a marketing brand nowadays.


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## NativeSon5859

It's an itch I have to scratch every couple of years. The last long haul on the Dog I took was in 2015, N.O to Miami, the direct bus that originates in Houston.


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## railiner

NativeSon5859 said:


> It's an itch I have to scratch every couple of years.


They have a flea powder remedy for that.... 

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that..... :lol:


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## NativeSon5859

railiner said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's an itch I have to scratch every couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> They have a flea powder remedy for that....
> 
> Sorry, I just couldn't resist that..... :lol:
Click to expand...

Haha! Nice one! I hope you didn't just jinx my trip in that respect.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I have an insatiable appetite for DL3 trips, which is essentially the only craving I have in my 97-pound body. I'd be riding DL3s all day, every day if I could.


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## NativeSon5859

On bus #7035. Is this a refurbished G4500? Nice ride, comfortable seats. On time in between Slidell and Biloxi.





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## railiner

Yep...that's a 'G', all right...nice pics!


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## NativeSon5859

Long night in Atlanta.... 4 hours late and then boarded 86574 and good lord, the seats were terrible! 



Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore

Boooo D4505! That's a GA state-owned unit.


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## NativeSon5859

Got another 4505 on Gainesville-Baton Rouge. Slightly better seating but not great. Then got a Prevost on the BTR-NOLA run. The seats were cloth on that one...or maybe like a cloth/leather mix. Not bad.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## NativeSon5859

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## railiner

Of the three types you rode, which do you like the best, aside from the seating, that is.....?


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## Swadian Hardcore

The second D4505 was a newer SC state-owned unit, so its seats probably haven't sagged as much yet, even though they're the same model.


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## NativeSon5859

I'm old school so I think I liked the G the best. But I didn't really care for it until it got remodeled. After that, probably the Prevost, and the D4500.

Have to go back to Baton Rouge today so I'm curious as to what I'll get.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Swadian Hardcore

I agree, my preference is also for the Blue G over the X3-45, over the D4505. Of course the originally D4500 would have been much better; it's the same as the DL3, but they got rid of it in 2005 in favor of the D4500CL, then MCI went into bankruptcy a few year later.

Too bad Greyhound maintenance for the older coaches is poor, and not much better for the new ones.


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## NativeSon5859

Got a blue G to Lafayette today. Pretty happy about that.


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## GBNorman

So Mr. Railiner, it is no longer to ride the same Greyhound starting in New York and ending up four days later in San Francisco?

I guess if someone put a gun to my head, I could survive (just like I could survive same Amtrak Coach); otherwise who cares if that and similar routes are in the history books.


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## railiner

Thats right, you have to make at least one change to go from New York City to San Francisco...

And youre right... probably no one cares, other than those who might have some anxiety about changing.

But what I care about is the wholesale abandonment of the shortest route...I-80 between Chicago and Cheyenne... it was actually less than three full days for the trip back when it existed...


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## Green Maned Lion

Greyhound going out of business is inevitable, especially long distance routes.


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## railiner

IMHO, the fine company that I knew as Greyhound, got out of the bus business about thirty years ago....the company that succeeded it is probably headed that way, as you stated....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Concurred, Greyhound's going down the drain!


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## railiner

Caesar La Rock said:


> Well Prevost has been awarded a large contract for 360 buses from Greyhound.
> 
> http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_release/12345744/prevost-awarded-large-greyhound-contract
> 
> 
> Greyhound Lines Inc. , based in Dallas Texas, has awarded Prevost a contract for up to 360 motorcoaches. The three year deal specifies the delivery of the first 60 coaches in 2017 with the option to purchase the balance over a 3 year period. This is the single largest contract in Prevost history.
> 
> “Our team is quite excited to be able to build Greyhound buses again. We greatly value our long standing relationship with GLI and are appreciative that they have chosen Prevost as their brand of choice,” said Francois Tremblay, Prevost vice president/general manager. “We believe product quality and exceptional service support made all the difference in their decision. ”
> 
> “We are pleased to continue our partnership with Prevost over the next few years. The quality of buses they produce will help us to keep setting the highest standard for transporting customers across North America,” said Dave Leach, president & CEO, Greyhound. “Our customers desire to travel in the safest and most comfortable bus available; motorcoaches from Prevost allow us to fulfill that need for them.”
> 
> Prevost Vice President, North American Sales, Jack Forbes stated: “It is always a pleasure to work with our long-term partners at Greyhound & First Group. A true team effort went into the bid process that brought us to securing this contract and our relationship with GLI will continue to be a team effort. From Sales to Manufacturing to the best Aftermarket Support team in the industry, we are all committed to the success of this partnership.”


The first of the new fleet has arrived in Philly....867xx series....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Same seats?


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## railiner

Haven't seen 'em yet....just heard from my 'source'....


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## Green Maned Lion

If only buses would use seats from a Peugeot 505...


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