# Amtrak and Private HSR



## Daniel (Jul 7, 2012)

With potential new HSR operations starting up in the US in the next decade (CAHSR, Xpresswest, and the JR in Texas), what would Amtrak's role in this be, if any? Could these entities contract operations to Amtrak, and have these routes be "part of" the Amtrak system, or are these separate systems altogether?


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## afigg (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't think anyone can answer your questions on what Amtrak's role might be yet, including the agencies and companies behind the plans. No one has broken ground on these projects yet.

My guess is that the new HSR operations will be run independent of the Amtrak system. Amtrak might run the HSR system under contract, but it would be similar to the Amtrak contracts for commuter rail systems. The trains will have the name of the service or line on them, not Amtrak. But way too early to know how the systems will be operated.

For example, CA HSR could sign a turnkey agreement with a European or Japanese company to finish construction of the system, supply the trains, and run them under a 20 year contract.

My bet is that XpressWest would contract operation and maintenance of the trains to an experienced passenger rail operator, but it won't be Amtrak.

Which is the JR in Texas proposal? I know there are several groups making proposals for a Dallas/FW - Houston HSR route and that TX DOT has $15 million for a PE and EIS study for a Dallas-Houston 150 mph class HSR line.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 8, 2012)

I am guessing if CA HSR happens Amtrak CA will run it.


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## Anderson (Jul 9, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> I am guessing if CA HSR happens Amtrak CA will run it.


I tend to agree, though this is likely the exception rather than the rule. The reason in this case, though, is that CAHSR largely duplicates the existing operations that Amtrak has, and there would be economies of scale to be had by merging the maintenance both LA and the Bay Area.


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## Daniel (Jul 13, 2012)

afigg said:


> I don't think anyone can answer your questions on what Amtrak's role might be yet, including the agencies and companies behind the plans. No one has broken ground on these projects yet.
> 
> My guess is that the new HSR operations will be run independent of the Amtrak system. Amtrak might run the HSR system under contract, but it would be similar to the Amtrak contracts for commuter rail systems. The trains will have the name of the service or line on them, not Amtrak. But way too early to know how the systems will be operated.
> 
> ...


The Central Japan Railway is looking into DFW-Houston service. One of the drawbacks in having private operators operating new routes instead of Amtrak (America's railroad) is that there is a lack of integration between them and Amtrak, from ticketing to scheduling to maintenance/operations, which leads to inefficiency. I just wish these new services would all be under the Amtrak brand to eliminate confusion.


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## George Harris (Jul 13, 2012)

Daniel said:


> The Central Japan Railway is looking into DFW-Houston service. One of the drawbacks in having private operators operating new routes instead of Amtrak (America's railroad) is that there is a lack of integration between them and Amtrak, from ticketing to scheduling to maintenance/operations, which leads to inefficiency. I just wish these new services would all be under the Amtrak brand to eliminate confusion.


Doesn't have to be that way at all. Back when the railroads were running their own passenger services, you could buy through tickets from one agent that would covere more than one train on more than one railroad.


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## saxman (Jul 13, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Daniel said:
> 
> 
> > The Central Japan Railway is looking into DFW-Houston service. One of the drawbacks in having private operators operating new routes instead of Amtrak (America's railroad) is that there is a lack of integration between them and Amtrak, from ticketing to scheduling to maintenance/operations, which leads to inefficiency. I just wish these new services would all be under the Amtrak brand to eliminate confusion.
> ...


Curious: what happened when you had to change stations in a particular city? Such Amtrak does with BOS to BON, it's a self transfer. Did passengers back have to self transfer as well? Did the railroads provide any cab or carriage service?


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## Anderson (Jul 13, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Daniel said:
> 
> 
> > The Central Japan Railway is looking into DFW-Houston service. One of the drawbacks in having private operators operating new routes instead of Amtrak (America's railroad) is that there is a lack of integration between them and Amtrak, from ticketing to scheduling to maintenance/operations, which leads to inefficiency. I just wish these new services would all be under the Amtrak brand to eliminate confusion.
> ...


True, but I think the ICC was to credit for that.

Actually, this raises an interesting question: If the US ended up with 3-4 operators (and I can list four candidates right now, with a couple of others that _could _count), might the passenger edition to the Official Guide need to come back, at least in an online edition? In particular, I'm not sure how keen Amtrak would be to list competing operations in California in their own guides. But with FEC and DX/XW very likely and with some form of CAHSR at least possible (as well as with the possibility of the JR Central operation in Texas), you've got the largest pile of non-Amtrak lines (and the first "real" competitors on a regional basis) in decades.

Likewise, there's also the passenger line in Maine that's likely to have a cross-platform connection with Amtrak, as well as the Saratoga and North Creek in upstate New York.

One thing on connecting tickets: Those would require the cooperation of both companies. While Amtrak may be more than willing, due to timekeeping issues on Amtrak's part, I could see the HSR folks being a bit jittery about issuing a through-ticket connecting from Amtrak (sort of how Amtrak used to refuse to through-ticket to/from the Acela because of their refusal to hold the Acelas for connections).

As to the old operations...I want to say that Santa Fe did some cross-town connections to/from the Super Chief in Chicago, but I also think that was an exception. My '56 Official Guide listed the distance between stations, so they may have been "hinting" at the need to hire a cab for those connections in most cases.


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## leemell (Jul 13, 2012)

afigg said:


> My bet is that XpressWest would contract operation and maintenance of the trains to an experienced passenger rail operator, but it won't be Amtrak.


Just for my info, why not Amtrak on XpressWest?


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## ehbowen (Jul 13, 2012)

saxman said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel said:
> ...


Well, in Chicago there was the Parmelee Transfer company, which held the franchise for transferring passengers and their baggage between Chicago's eight railroad stations. If you booked a through ticket via Chicago with a change of stations a Parmelee coupon would be included with your tickets; the price of this service was built into the cost of the through ticket. In later years (1955-ish) I understand that the railroads started their own competing transfer service to cut costs, and there was an ensuing court battle which Parmelee ultimately lost. As passenger traffic continued to dwindle even this service was axed and by 1968 or so passengers transferring in Chicago were "on their own".


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## Ben (Jul 13, 2012)

Lets say that Amtrak is selected to be an operator of one of these systems. Would the trains themselves be labeled "Amtrak" and would it show up in Amtrak reservation systems, timetables, and maps, or would it still all be separate?


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## the_traveler (Jul 13, 2012)

IF (and a big if) Amtrak is contracted to operate one of the HSR lines, I think it will not be listed in Amtrak's national timetables. I think it would be handled much like Amtrak does with commuter railroads it's contracted to operate.

For many years, Amtrak had a contract to operate MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority). However, I never saw in the national timetables a schedule from Boston-Canton (MA)-Providence!


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## Ben (Jul 13, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> IF (and a big if) Amtrak is contracted to operate one of the HSR lines, I think it will not be listed in Amtrak's national timetables. I think it would be handled much like Amtrak does with commuter railroads it's contracted to operate.
> 
> For many years, Amtrak had a contract to operate MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority). However, I never saw in the national timetables a schedule from Boston-Canton (MA)-Providence!


But what about state-supported corridor services, such as in CA? Amtrak operates them, but the states manage and fund them, much like what would happen if the private entities partner with Amtrak. Those trains are part of Amtrak's system- they show up in Amtrak's timetables/reservations/ticketing.


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## the_traveler (Jul 13, 2012)

Very true, but those are state supported services to be operated *AS* Amtrak, not commuter railroads contracted to be operated *BY* Amtrak but still called by the commuter railroad's name. Recent examples are MBTA, VRE and (I believe) MARC - and others. (You don't say that you are taking Amtrak to Plymouth, MA or Camden Yards to see the Ballgame.)


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## Anderson (Jul 13, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> IF (and a big if) Amtrak is contracted to operate one of the HSR lines, I think it will not be listed in Amtrak's national timetables. I think it would be handled much like Amtrak does with commuter railroads it's contracted to operate.
> 
> For many years, Amtrak had a contract to operate MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority). However, I never saw in the national timetables a schedule from Boston-Canton (MA)-Providence!


It would depend on the length of the contract, but I would be inclined to disagree if just because of the potential for through business and the intercity nature of such an operation. For example, I'd be hard-pressed to see Amtrak _not_ through-ticket on a ten-year contract, especially since the service would be non-competing (whereas the MBTA commuter lines might well be seen as competitors in some fashion).

Edit:

To go case-by-case, here's how I see it happening:

-DX: Through ticketing would likely happen due to the non-competing nature of things plus the through-traffic potential from the Surfliners.

-CAHSR: Through ticketing would happen, but not because Amtrak wants it. The likely joint use of LAUS plus possible combination operations at San Jose, Sacramento, and/or San Francisco would lean in favor...but I think the main force jamming it down Amtrak's throat would be the state of California, which would be inclined to force Amtrak to allow transfers at Bakersfield as well (for all-rail rides from the Valley to LA). Then again, I think CA will force a through ticketing situation here regardless of the operator of CAHSR since it would help their bottom line on the Surfliners on the one hand, and possibly allow them to cut frequencies on the San Joaquins on the other as the longer-distance traffic shifts over.

-Dallas to Houston: No through ticket. Likely separate stations would sort of doom this.

-FEC: Through ticketing if FEC extends to Jacksonville, potentially with that being the only place transfers are allowed. Here, I see Amtrak operating "the local" and FEC operating "the express", and unless Amtrak decides to operate sections of all non-Auto Train Florida trains down the FEC, both are probably going to see benefits (FEC in increased business and through-traffic into/out of JAX, Amtrak in being able to add demand north of JAX). The fact that Amtrak is likely to be running trains along here is going to increase the chances of a through ticketing operation since not allowing it, unless Amtrak is D/R from JAX on down, is just going to confuse/irritate people wondering why they can get _this_ ticket from JAX-Miami on Amtrak but not _that other_ ticket at a different/more convenient time and/or why they're getting stuck splitting up a round trip between two separate tickets. If anything, Amtrak staying out here might end up screwing their trains on the route.


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## afigg (Jul 14, 2012)

Anderson said:


> One thing on connecting tickets: Those would require the cooperation of both companies. While Amtrak may be more than willing, due to timekeeping issues on Amtrak's part, I could see the HSR folks being a bit jittery about issuing a through-ticket connecting from Amtrak (sort of how Amtrak used to refuse to through-ticket to/from the Acela because of their refusal to hold the Acelas for connections).


If the services are to be run as true HSR, they will have high frequency of service. Trains departing every 20 minutes peak, 1/2 hour or hourly off peak, and so on. If the trains are unreserved or can be booked at the last minute, then someone arriving on an Amtrak LD or lower frequency corridor train, simply takes the next HSR train departing to LA, Las Vegas, Dallas to Houston, whatever.

Many of the posts appear to be coming from a mindset of booking a once a day LD train, a 2, 3, 5 times a day corridor train, all through Amtrak. A number of HSR corridor services around the US will change the game.

As for booking tickets on the HSR services, people will be able book them on the company's or service's website or, very likely, on sites like Travelocity, Kayak, etc. People book airlines, hotels, car rentals through one discount site, why not passenger trains in the US?


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 14, 2012)

saxman said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel said:
> ...


The private railroad were excellent at providing reservations and tickets for through transportation. I did a circle trip from Indianapolis to California and back in 1970. I booked the trip through the Santa Fe. They provided me with a coupon book for each segment of the trip and for each accomodation. I was traveling on the James Whitcomb Riley both ways from Indianapolis to Chicago, Super Chief to LA, San Diegans to and from San Diego, Coast Daylight to San Francisco, City of San Francisco to Ogden, "California Service" remanant of California Zephyr to Denver, Denver Zephyr to Chicago. There were coupons for the Railroad Transfer Service from Central Station to Dearborn Street on the westbound trip and from Union Station to Central on the eastbound trip and for the Espee bus from San Francisco Ferry Building to Oakland. I made one payment to Santa Fe and they did the rest. I had to make one change to my reservation while in CA and I made it at the Santa Fe city ticket office in downtown LA. When I was younger we lived in Hot Springs Arkansas and my Dad made all train travel arrangements through the local MoPac agent, Mr. Cox until 1964 when passenger service was discontinued. My Dad was a freight and passenger agent for the New York Central in Illinois. He used to make reservations for trains all over the country even though we had limited passenger service in our city. My Dad used to give me old Official Guides which he used to look up schedules and that sparked my interest in train travel.


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