# Business Class Offered Aboard Cardinal Effective January 19, 2016



## AmtrakBlue (Jan 9, 2016)

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am%2FAM_Alert_C%2FAlerts_Popup&cid=1251631958416



> Business Class Offered Aboard Cardinal Trains 50 and 51	Effective January 19, 2016Amtrak will launch Business class service aboard the Cardinal. This new service will begin on eastbound Train 50 starting January 19 and on westbound Train 51 on January 20. You can begin making Business class reservations aboard the Cardinal starting January 11, and enjoy the following amenities:
> 
> 
> Reserved seating in a car for Business class passengers only
> ...


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## the_traveler (Jan 9, 2016)

You can buy access to the CA in PHL but not the CA in WAS or NYP? Why not? :huh:


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## Ryan (Jan 9, 2016)

This should be interesting.

PHL-only is curious.

50/51 being the first east coast WiFi long distance train turned out to be correct. Wonder how well it will work in the godforsaken no-mans-land that it runs through.


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## AG1 (Jan 9, 2016)

Boston South Station also has a $20 Club Acela pass option for Business Class ticket holders.


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## Ryan (Jan 9, 2016)

WAS and NYP are both silly crowded much of the time, that makes sense. Also, how do the NYP CA hours line up with 50/51's calling times?


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## jebr (Jan 9, 2016)

Matches well with 51 during the week. Sunday I don't think the schedule works.


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## oregon pioneer (Jan 9, 2016)

Ryan said:


> This should be interesting.
> 
> PHL-only is curious.
> 
> 50/51 being the first east coast WiFi long distance train turned out to be correct. Wonder how well it will work in the godforsaken no-mans-land that it runs through.


Already had it on the westbound SWC Dec 14-16. The router was supposed to handle 15 users, but when there were 11 on, I could not accomplish anything. In the morning, when there were only 4 users on the router, the service was usable (in cell reception areas, which was well more than half the time). SCA shared how many were on, in response to my comments about usability.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2016)

Maybe what they need to do is find routers that can set up multiple trunk connections on the backend depending on the traffic demand, e.g. upto 10 users per connection, or some such. Such devices are actually available, but naturally cost quite a bit more than setting up a WiFi router on the moral equivalent of a smartphone.


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## PVD (Jan 9, 2016)

Has anyone seen a business class car (not Acela) with leather seats? The 2+1 BC/Cafe car seats are great, but I think they are vinyl. Are they prepping a few cars for this service or will it be the existing partial cars?


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## R30A (Jan 9, 2016)

Yes. 81543 and 81544 both had Acela style seat cushions a year ago, maybe more do now. That said, I doubt they will use such obviously inferior cars to the A-II Coaches to inaugurate BC service on an overnight run.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 9, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am%2FAM_Alert_C%2FAlerts_Popup&cid=1251631958416
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the Wi-Fi on the other eastern LD trains going to be only if you pay for it then? I don't see how complementary Wi-Fi is a perk for business class passengers only otherwise.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2016)

They forgot to mention the complementary bonus TQMs for BC travelers starting 24th of Jan.


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## oregon pioneer (Jan 9, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am%2FAM_Alert_C%2FAlerts_Popup&cid=1251631958416
> ...


When I was on the Card in November, we had a substitute cafe car, and it was the kind with 2 x 1 Business Class seats in half of it, instead of tables. They were nice seats, but I did not notice that they were leather, so I suspect they were vinyl. There was wi-fi in that car (unavailable in New River Gorge, of course), but I was led to believe that was only because of the substitution, not a permanent thing. Perhaps it gave them ideas...


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## Palmetto (Jan 9, 2016)

I rode the Downeaster about 4 years ago. I believe the BC seats were leather.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 9, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Effective January 19, 2016
> ...


Not entirely clear. Optimistically, I first read this as "Complementary … unlimited access to _The New York Times_ and _Washington Post_ digital editions." Riders in coach would have to pay extra for that, of course. But I doubt they will have to pay for the basic Wi-Fi. That would be a change of policy, and annoy many riders. Meanwhile "Free Wi-Fi" is a great selling point for the train.


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## the_traveler (Jan 9, 2016)

I take it that the Wi-Fi is complimentary to all passengers, but access to the papers is free only to BC. Just like it is on any NEC train, where any passenger can use the train's Wi-Fi free of charge.


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## R30A (Jan 9, 2016)

Not to be overly snarky, but I wonder what the drink policy will be. Unlimited free drinks Northeast style? One free drink midwest style? One free drink eastbound, unlimited free drinks westbound? One free drink west of a point, unlimited east of that point? Unlimited if a NYP or WAS based LSA, one free drink if CHI based? 


Does anyone at Amtrak actually realize the wildly differing BC policies?


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## Ryan (Jan 9, 2016)

It says "Complimantary wifi". That certainly implies that it's going to be paid on the LD routes. What comes after the "and" is irrelevant.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 9, 2016)

R30A said:


> Not to be overly snarky, but I wonder what the drink policy will be. Unlimited free drinks Northeast style? One free drink midwest style? One free drink eastbound, unlimited free drinks westbound? One free drink west of a point, unlimited east of that point? Unlimited if a NYP or WAS based LSA, one free drink if CHI based?
> 
> Does anyone at Amtrak actually realize the wildly differing BC policies?


Not to mention the fact that Sleeper passengers only get complimentary coffee, juice, and bottled water.


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## Palmland (Jan 9, 2016)

Since Amtrak states there will be leather seats, I would think it has to be the nice cafe/BC car in use on some trains. But that does begs the question, will they also have the cafe now used? I think not. So that leaves us with service similar to the Silver Star- but without tables. I would expect sleeper fares to be lowered accordingly.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2016)

Assuming that the Club Dinette will replace a full Dinette and not be in addition to it.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 9, 2016)

jis said:


> Assuming that the Club Dinette will replace a full Dinette and not be in addition to it.



Pssst....Jis! I'm sure you know what comes next, but

 (Don't worry, the link is clean!) h34r:


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## seat38a (Jan 10, 2016)

So I'm guessing the test run of LD Business Class on the Coast Starlight was a success and this is a result of that successful experiment.


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## Anderson (Jan 10, 2016)

I fully expect to see some brickbats flying between Amtrak and IP over "Business Class" on the two trains. Hopefully the two trains will get a "service notice" concerning the fact that the two offerings of the same "class" of service are light-years apart...

...which reminds me, I do need to come up with an excuse to spend a day or two in Chicago so I can take the Hoosier State again. God, that train is nice.


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## jis (Jan 10, 2016)

Anderson said:


> I fully expect to see some brickbats flying between Amtrak and IP over "Business Class" on the two trains.


There is absolutely no basis for brickbats since AFAIK there was nothing in the various contracts preventing Amtrak from offering a BC service. 
What I am curious about is what prevents Indiana and IP calling their BC whatever they like and simply say that the ticket will be for BC but the service provided is enhanced service to the Diamond Class standard or some such?


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## Palmetto (Jan 10, 2016)

There is one big difference between IP and Amtrak's business class on the route: the quality of food.


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## Meat Puppet (Jan 10, 2016)

Is Cardinal business class bookable online? Can't find it...


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## bretton88 (Jan 10, 2016)

Meat Puppet said:


> Is Cardinal business class bookable online? Can't find it...


Won't be bookable until January 11th.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 11, 2016)

Actually BC makes a lot of sense for this route. The HS has Business class now. Even though I find it worlds apart. And the run from CVS to NYP has BC already so it might be a good thing


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## bretton88 (Jan 11, 2016)

So far business class isn't a bookable option yet for the Cardinal (I was curious what the upcharge was and Amtrak says its bookable as of today). If they end up putting a 62 seat amfleet 1 BC car on, it will be a rip-off being that the regular Amfleet 2 seats are larger. So hopefully its the Dinette with the 2-1 seating.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2016)

bretton88 said:


> So far business class isn't a bookable option yet for the Cardinal (I was curious what the upcharge was and Amtrak says its bookable as of today). If they end up putting a 62 seat amfleet 1 BC car on, it will be a rip-off being that the regular Amfleet 2 seats are larger. So hopefully its the Dinette with the 2-1 seating.


For AGR members, the TQM bonus in BC might still make it worthwhile irrespective of whether it is a Capstone car or a Club-Dinette.


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## R30A (Jan 11, 2016)

While I have no idea what it will actually be, I must say that I expect this will end up using Amfleet II coaches as BC, as they are obviously the best suited for this. Just swap out the cushions to have leather seats. (This is what they did last time there was a single level LD with business class accommodations...)


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## ain't no Metroliner (Jan 11, 2016)

So effective January 19, 2016, does this mean that the whole train will have (free) wi-fi?


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## spidersfan351 (Jan 11, 2016)

It seems logical to me that they will use the leather seat/2-1 cafe/business class cars that have been floating around the northeast. There should be enough of those to equip the train, and it would be essentially zero cost, just reassignment. I'm pleased with this, as they are generally nice and an improvement over the usual Cardinal fare. I am also curious what they will charge, and have been trying to book all day, since I have a short trip planned CVS-CLF on January 22.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 11, 2016)

IF there was 2-1 seating, and IF you could reserve your seat (so I know I have a single seat when traveling solo) I would be very happy to pay extra.

If it's standard Amfleet II Seating and the chances of a stranger being assigned to the seat next to me are the same, I have very little reason to pay extra for this service, although the Metropolitan Lounge could sway me.


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## spidersfan351 (Jan 11, 2016)

Purely out of curiousity, I called Amtrak this afternoon. The reservation agent told me that Business Class seats were not available yet in the system, but she suggested that it would be a $25 upcharge from whatever fare I selected for that route, Charlottesville to Clifton Forge (tickets range from $15 to $19 to $36 that particular day). 

Realistically, I think they stick to the 3 Amfleet II coaches, the current diner/cafe, this new business class/lounge, a VL Sleeper and baggage. Would love it if they added a real diner and made this car the part lounge, but don't imagine they will take on that extra cost. Since they will still be lugging the combined diner/cafe, I guess this new car will provide an extra half lounge area, giving the train roughly a full lounge car, albeit divided, and half a diner. Seems to make sense.

Long term, in 12 months or so, I would expect Amtrak will cut the baggage and add a baggage/dorm to help ease demand on the sole sleeper. Would like to see two full sleepers and a new diner, but expect that Amtrak will find other places to use that equipment.


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## seat38a (Jan 11, 2016)

jis said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > So far business class isn't a bookable option yet for the Cardinal (I was curious what the upcharge was and Amtrak says its bookable as of today). If they end up putting a 62 seat amfleet 1 BC car on, it will be a rip-off being that the regular Amfleet 2 seats are larger. So hopefully its the Dinette with the 2-1 seating.
> ...


Last I read the bonus was not TQM. Has this changed recently?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 11, 2016)

Good question jis! Do only Acela ride Bonus Points count as TQP points or is it BC also?


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## jis (Jan 11, 2016)

It says it is for_ Business Class_. There is no mention of any exceptions to it, so unless notified otherwise I assume it is true for all _Business Class._

Quote from the _FlyerTalk Wiki _on the _2016 AGR Program_:



> AGR will provide new class-of-service TQP bonuses: _25% for qualifying travel in_ *Business class* and _50% for qualifying travel in _*Acela First class*.


Notice the absence of the word "Acela" before the phrase "Business Class" in the above?

Read the further explanation by clicking the link to the explanation page of the Wiki and satisfy yourself further that the 25% bonus for all Business Class travel is tier qualifying.


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## seat38a (Jan 11, 2016)

jis said:


> It says it is for_ Business Class_. There is no mention of any exceptions to it, so unless notified otherwise I assume it is true for all _Business Class._
> 
> Quote from the _FlyerTalk Wiki _on the _2016 AGR Program_:
> 
> ...


Well that is good to know. When first round of info came out, it was considered non tier qualifying (Can't find the doc). Plus no one could say at the time at AGR if it was or not.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2016)

The Select, Select+ and Select-E bonuses are still not tier qualifying, but the BC and Acela FC bonuses are tier qualifying.

Bob Dylan you had spent considerable time moaning about Sleeper not getting any bonus back then.

I think the logic behind the extra bonus support for all BC is that absent that the upcharge for BC is not necessarily that attractive. This is a means for getting people to spend the upcharge.

This thought came to me when I noticed that United just upped the PQM to 200% (i.e. 100% bonus for Domestic FC and International BF), and 300% for Global First. This is to entice people to buy into specially Domestic FC instead of getting complementary upgrades etc. At least there is a small amount of merit to the idea. This single act by United now bags me over 28,000PQM on my single BF round trip to India which begins in two days - which makes me a Premier Bronze in a single shot. I will have another one way trip to India later this year bagging me another 14,000PQM. Oh well, there sometimes are good consequences.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 11, 2016)

Excellent info and analysis jis,makes sense!

And you are correct about the Sleepers getting excluded, I'm still po'd about Sleeper passengers getting no bonsus as in Less for More! YMMV


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## OBS (Jan 12, 2016)

According to updated Service Standards memo issued a few days ago, Cardinal Business Class includes "Unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea".

Also interesting to note, it says Midwest BC is entitled to "one non alcoholic beverage as well as unlimited coffee and tea" and a newspaper...


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 12, 2016)

Are Newspapers making a comeback on Amtrak? Maybe flowers in the Diner ( and a Diner on the Star!!)and All Day Coffee in the Sleepers will return?

Cue Roy Orbison singing "In Dreams".


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## ruck (Jan 12, 2016)

The business class changes appear to have gone live on Amtrak.com for February 20th

Chicago - Lafayette is a 29$ up charge from coach

Chicago - Indy is 39$

Chicago - Washington D.C. is 45$

Chicago - New York is 51$

For the Chicago to Indianapolis area the Amtrak Business class appears to be 6$ cheaper than Iowa Pacific's (obviously different days of the week).

Glad to see Amtrak increasing the service options.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 12, 2016)

That's not too bad if the Biz Class Car on the Card has the nice 2×1 Faux Leather Seating in a Cafe/Biz Car!

With the High price Sleeper(s) on the Cardinal, and the food in Diner Lite, its definitely worth taking your own food and drink and upgrading in lieu of riding Coach on a LD trip!!


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## Meat Puppet (Jan 12, 2016)

$51 upcharge for 28 hours, good deal


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## bretton88 (Jan 12, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> That's not too bad if the Biz Class Car on the Card has the nice 2×1 Faux Leather Seating in a Cafe/Biz Car!
> 
> With the High price Sleeper(s) on the Cardinal, and the food in Diner Lite, its definitely worth taking your own food and drink and upgrading in lieu of riding Coach on a LD trip!!


As Biz Class customer it sounds like you get unlimited drinks, so you don't even have to take your own drinks.


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## AmtrakLKL (Jan 12, 2016)

OBS said:


> According to updated Service Standards memo issued a few days ago, Cardinal Business Class includes "Unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea".
> 
> Also interesting to note, it says Midwest BC is entitled to "one non alcoholic beverage as well as unlimited coffee and tea" and a newspaper...


So Business Class passengers receive unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea at any time. Sleeping car passengers are limited to two complimentary bottles of water per person, per trip and complimentary juice, coffee and tea only between the hours of 6 am and 11 am. :wacko:

The business class car on 50/51 will be a split Club/Dinette with 18 2x1 leather seats. It will be sandwiched between the sleeper and existing cafe/diner lite.


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## bretton88 (Jan 12, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > According to updated Service Standards memo issued a few days ago, Cardinal Business Class includes "Unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea".
> ...


That's what happens when you come up with a new policy separate from other policies. You end up with completely mismatched perks.


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## fulham (Jan 13, 2016)

Really not that bad a situation...the dinette portion of this car will kind of act as a "first class lounge" for BC and sleeper passengers (I am assuming the cafe portion of the car will not be open). Will BC passengers be able to eat in the diner lite?


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2016)

From my experience, I'll bet that SC passengers can just ask for coffee or water (or ice) in the BC car and get it. Or the diner car, when it's staffed.

Still no BC for sale. Amtrak ticketing webpage only has 4 columns and for the Cardinal they're all already in use. ???


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## fulham (Jan 13, 2016)

Phil S...click onto the sleeper column (use the arrows). It will show the sleeper accomodations and business class. Only 4 columns are used...BC is in with the sleepers.


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks! But I don't find any BC options under sleeper column. I was doing a Tuesday in late February. What exactly needs to be clicked on to see the BC fare?


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## districtRich (Jan 13, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > According to updated Service Standards memo issued a few days ago, Cardinal Business Class includes "Unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea".
> ...


I took business class on the Wolverine in December and it indeed was one soft drink per passenger (you had to sign a sheet with your name) and she said all the coffee and tea that you wanted. I then connected to the Cardinal and if that official policy was just water and juice between certain hours, my attendant didn't follow it and kept the service area full of water bottles, juice, and ice all day.


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## ain't no Metroliner (Jan 13, 2016)

districtRich said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > OBS said:
> ...


Wait, on the Cardinal you got all that for free in Coach or in Sleeper?


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## keelhauled (Jan 13, 2016)

Sleeper.


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## districtRich (Jan 13, 2016)

ain't no Metroliner said:


> districtRich said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakLKL said:
> ...


That's in the sleeper


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## ain't no Metroliner (Jan 13, 2016)

districtRich said:


> ain't no Metroliner said:
> 
> 
> > districtRich said:
> ...


Thanks for clarifying. That's very nice. Looking forward to my first sleeper trip next month, which begins with the Cardinal.


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## abcnews (Jan 13, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > According to updated Service Standards memo issued a few days ago, Cardinal Business Class includes "Unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea".
> ...


Is this confirmed? That they will indeed be using the preferred 2/1 seating BC/lounge type cars? If so - this is really good news!


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 13, 2016)

Trains News Wire this morning reports that the 2/1 business class/cafe cars similar to those used on Michigan/Illinois trains will be assigned to the Cardinal. This will be in addition to the dinette/lounge cars already assigned to the train.


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## afigg (Jan 13, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> So Business Class passengers receive unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea at any time. Sleeping car passengers are limited to two complimentary bottles of water per person, per trip and complimentary juice, coffee and tea only between the hours of 6 am and 11 am. :wacko:
> 
> The business class car on 50/51 will be a split Club/Dinette with 18 2x1 leather seats. It will be sandwiched between the sleeper and existing cafe/diner lite.


I am surprised that Amtrak is adding BC to the Cardinal. I would not have expected the Cardinal to be the next LD train to get BC as it does not have the daytime trips for major city pairs such as the Coast Starlight has. I suspect the competition from the upgraded Hoosier State is part of the reason.
But I wonder if another reason for adding a split Club/Dinette car is to use the additional tables as extra seating capacity for the Amfleet II car. How crowded or overloaded has the Amfleet II car gotten when the Cardinal has added a second sleeper car? Since Amtrak has Club/Dinette cars available, by adding one to the Cardinal, even if the food service area is not staffed, it provides additional tables, extra food and supply storage for the Amfleet II diner service, and 18 BC seats for additional revenue, however much they get. In that context, adding BC makes sense.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 13, 2016)

afigg said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > So Business Class passengers receive unlimited complimentary bottles of water, juice, coffee and tea at any time. Sleeping car passengers are limited to two complimentary bottles of water per person, per trip and complimentary juice, coffee and tea only between the hours of 6 am and 11 am. :wacko:
> ...


I'd like to think it's *an added car* that upgrades the consist, offering a smidge more capacity and better options on food service.

I'd like to think it's a nice step toward taking the _Cardinal_ daily, as soon as enuff CAF cars are in the fleet.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Into Chicago, the _Cardinal _(with the _Hoosier State_) operates daily, like a corridor train, receiving pax at every stop. The daily service tilts the passenger counts toward the Indiana stations. (Indianapolis has almost 16,000 and Lafayette 10,000 -- at least when things go well.)

On the NEC to NYC, the _Cardinal_ is discharging only, no boarding. Beyond Alexandria, it passes thru Charlottesville only 3-days a week each way, but that station pulls a cool 20,000 _Cardinal_ riders, and Charlottesville-D.C. is the 4th busiest city pair. Then in West Virginia, Charleston gets almost 10,000 and Huntington about 6,000. Daily service could double the counts for the eastern end of the route.

Then maybe one fine day, West Virginia could wake up wanting a second frequency on the corridor from Huntington and Charleston to Charlottesville and the NEC. A very fine day that would be, indeed. LOL.


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## fulham (Jan 13, 2016)

Given how crowded the current cafe/diner-lite setup is, I wonder if it would make sense to put the diner-lite in the new car? This would allow more space for the attendant and would avoid having to place garbage in the vestibule as was done when I road the Cardinal last year.


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## AmtrakLKL (Jan 13, 2016)

fulham said:


> Given how crowded the current cafe/diner-lite setup is, I wonder if it would make sense to put the diner-lite in the new car? This would allow more space for the attendant and would avoid having to place garbage in the vestibule as was done when I road the Cardinal last year.


The Amfleet I Club/Dinette car is probably not compatible with diner lite service requirements. Those cars don't have the extra storage, Traulsen refrigerator or steam tables. They may not have convection ovens behind the counter, either. Thirdrail7 can probably advise further on the convection capabilities. I doubt the diner lite service attendant will want to use the extra tables. Simultaneously doubles their work load and splits them shuffling back and forth between two cars. That is also assuming the consist plan calls for tables rear next to the lounge vs. tables forward.


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## jis (Jan 14, 2016)

I think Business Class would work very well if it were offered on the Lake Shore Limited. That would help it fulfill its role as the last train out and early train in on the Empire Corridor west. In addition it would come of use west of Toledo too.


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## PVD (Jan 14, 2016)

You are probably right, B/C seems to sell pretty well on the Empire Service trains. (at least when I'm on one)


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 14, 2016)

What would be nice is if the tables were made available as lounge space for Business Class and Sleeping Class passengers.

Is there going to be a designated BC attendant? They really should make that person an LSA and have them sell drinks and a few snacks. Sort of the Pacific Parlor Car type service... in an Amfleet I (I know who am I kidding ha.)


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## OBS (Jan 14, 2016)

An Amfleet 1 café is easily utilized for Diner Lite service on the Cardinal. It is equipped with 2 convection ovens...all that is needed for this service. However, the current staffing, there is only one LSA (the café LSA) on the train. In order to use a separate car for Diner Lite, the SA position would need to be replaced with another LSA, due to accountability and training issues. Not impossible, but would require some adjustment. The extra tables would be great for service, especially during times with 2 sleepers IMHO.


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## spidersfan351 (Jan 15, 2016)

I agree. I think that since the Cardinal is the only LD train using the split Diner Lite car, it could be easier from an equipment standpoint to convert these BC Amfleet I's to Diner Lite service and make them Cardinal dedicated, allowing Amtrak to use regular Amfleet II Cafe/Lounges that the rest of the fleet uses for the Lounge section. Essentially, make it one "Cardinal specific" car per train rather than two. That's gotta be easier. 

Of course, that would require some conversion of the BC Cafe, and with new diners coming out in a year or so, perhaps this train will take one and maybe offer more of a cafe set up in the full diner? I couldn't imagine full, three or four person dining crews being assigned to the Cardinal, but see no reason why a new VL II Dining car wouldn't make a great lounge too.


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## abcnews (Jan 15, 2016)

I think utilizing these half business class / half lounge cars on the Cardinal was a very creative idea by someone at Amtrak. Especially since they will not replace the very crowded Amfleet II Cafe/Lounge/Conductor & crew car. It was always hard to find a table on the Cardinal. And I always thought that it was also too crowded around the diner side. No space for the meal attendant to move about. Now the sleeping car pax could have the option of sitting in the half lounge, while they wait for a table in the Diner portion. Rather than having to stand in line by the doorway to the sleeper to get a table in the diner.

The Cardinal is certainly a long distance train that travels through a truly amazing region of America, and prior to this, the Cardinal really suffered from not having enough area to move about the train. Something that's quite important when traveling on a LD rail journey. Before this, you were pretty much limited to your room or your coach seat.

Plus the 2/1 BC seating option is intriguing on such a scenic train. It will offer a mid priced option between Roomette and coach with decent comfort - even for an overnight trip. And since it's a NY based train I would think they have quite a few of the 2/1 cars available in NY - as we have often seen them randomly added to NEC corridor trains. This is a much better use!

I look forward to my next Cardinal trip in February.


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## andersone (Jan 15, 2016)

My local NPR station ( Athens Ohio ) actually ran a one minute piece on the Cardinal this morning talking about the upgrade to CUS and mentioning the stops at Huntington and Portsmouth. It's the end of the world as we know it.


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## City of Miami (Jan 15, 2016)

Today's 50 was really a stub - 1 bag, 1 sleeper, café, 2 coaches. That's it. Sunday I noticed the 50 had 3 coaches but the last one was unoccupied. I thought maybe it was malfunctioning somehow.

So I guess Amtrak is really responding to demand which is interesting. The Cardinal actually had 4 coaches and/or a second sleeper on a few trips over the holidays.

I plan to be out there next Wed with a camera to see what comes through.


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## fulham (Jan 16, 2016)

If Amtrak is doing this on the Cardinal, I think the Lake Shore should be the next train to get Business Class. Given the amount of business this train does through upstate New York I think this would be an added benefit to the train. Also if they use the BC/table car that Amtrak plans on using on the Cardinal, this would give passengers between New York and Albany a lounge/table car. It would be nice if the car would actually have a working cafe section but that is probably asking too much. Just think that a market exists for this type of service on the Lake Shore.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 16, 2016)

Depending on how far you are traveling, those Recliner-type seats in the 2-1 Amtrak are actually *MUCH* more comfortable than the daytime config. of the Sleeper seats. If you don't mind being a bit stinky upon arrival, you could probably knock out a decent night's sleep on them as well, especially if you have the single or a 2-pack to yourself.


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## Train2104 (Jan 17, 2016)

fulham said:


> If Amtrak is doing this on the Cardinal, I think the Lake Shore should be the next train to get Business Class. Given the amount of business this train does through upstate New York I think this would be an added benefit to the train. Also if they use the BC/table car that Amtrak plans on using on the Cardinal, this would give passengers between New York and Albany a lounge/table car. It would be nice if the car would actually have a working cafe section but that is probably asking too much. Just think that a market exists for this type of service on the Lake Shore.


I have a feeling adding another car to the NY portion of the LSL is pushing the limits of the one engine in passenger service, especially when the 448/449 sleeper has to be sent down to NYP too.


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## neroden (Jan 17, 2016)

All the more reason to order new dual-modes ASAP! (And for goodness sake make them catenary-diesels instead of third rail-diesels; it makes them much more useful.)


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## PVD (Jan 17, 2016)

The idea of a cat dual mode having additional usefullness is totally valid. However, since the next DM's are very likely to be paid for by NY State, they aren't going to do much more than they already do (pull out of NYP), that negates the value of cat power.


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## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

Besides a catenary dual mode is quite useless for getting trains into Grand Central which is NY State's primary use for dual modes.


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## Palmland (Jan 17, 2016)

Another potential market for Cardinal BC are the high rollers going from NY and Wash to the Greenbrier at White Sulphur Springs. Not long ago there was a private initiative to have a dedicated train with substantialy upgraded private equipment being used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbrier_Presidential_Express

Steam power was planned at the time. Apparently bureauacracy got in the way. And, long ago, the C&O railway ran dedicated sleepers into White Sulphur Springs. If marketed properly, this new service could prove to be quite popular - especially if the Cardinal operates on time!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What would be nice is if the tables were made available as lounge space for Business Class and Sleeping Class passengers.
> 
> Is there going to be a designated BC attendant? They really should make that person an LSA and have them sell drinks and a few snacks. Sort of the Pacific Parlor Car type service... in an Amfleet I (I know who am I kidding ha.)


That is exactly what the tables are being used for and the car will not have a designated attendant.



abcnews said:


> I think utilizing these half business class / half lounge cars on the Cardinal was a very creative idea by someone at Amtrak. Especially since they will not replace the very crowded Amfleet II Cafe/Lounge/Conductor & crew car. It was always hard to find a table on the Cardinal. And I always thought that it was also too crowded around the diner side. No space for the meal attendant to move about. Now the sleeping car pax could have the option of sitting in the half lounge, while they wait for a table in the Diner portion. Rather than having to stand in line by the doorway to the sleeper to get a table in the diner.
> 
> The Cardinal is certainly a long distance train that travels through a truly amazing region of America, and prior to this, the Cardinal really suffered from not having enough area to move about the train. Something that's quite important when traveling on a LD rail journey. Before this, you were pretty much limited to your room or your coach seat.
> 
> ...


Regarding the split club cars, they are actually in high demand and hard to come by. There aren't many extras. Another train sacrificed its car in favor of a full business class to make this happen.



City of Miami said:


> Today's 50 was really a stub - 1 bag, 1 sleeper, café, 2 coaches. That's it. Sunday I noticed the 50 had 3 coaches but the last one was unoccupied. I thought maybe it was malfunctioning somehow.
> 
> So I guess Amtrak is really responding to demand which is interesting. The Cardinal actually had 4 coaches and/or a second sleeper on a few trips over the holidays.
> 
> I plan to be out there next Wed with a camera to see what comes through.


Like most trains, the Cardinal is under the winter operating plan. The 50 you observed will be the normal consist except it will have the split club behind the sleeper.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > What would be nice is if the tables were made available as lounge space for Business Class and Sleeping Class passengers.
> ...


Says who?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Use your imagination. Now, if you don't believe what I wrote (and I am not perfect), that is your option. Feel free to board the train and report back.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Says someone who has "inside" info. Stick around and you'll learn who has valid info on here.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2016)

I've been around long enough to know not to trust someone just cause they said so. 

I will however be interested to hear how things go from first hand reports.


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## Ryan (Jan 17, 2016)

Thirdrail7 isn't just "someone".

Pay close enough attention and you can figure out who is full of crap and who knows what they're talking about.

Pay even closer attention and you can figure out who works for the company and is giving you a first hand report, even if you can't tell.

Connecting those comments to the present discussion is left as an exercise to the reader.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I've been around long enough to know not to trust someone just cause they said so.
> 
> I will however be interested to hear how things go from first hand reports.


Son, you've made a total of 52 comments, including these recent unfortunate ones.

Thirdrail7 has made 715 comments. He usually has something substantial to say, and is well respected by other long-timers here.

Maybe you can aspire to such a station in life, but you aren't quite there yet. Continuing in this manner, you will only embarrass yourself. Now just chill and this too shall pass.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 17, 2016)

Actually failed to edit, above, due to reasons unknown.

What I wanted to add is that I see that I've posted more comments than Thirdrail7, LOL. Certainly didn't mean to suggest that my info is better than his just because I have run up a larger number of posts. Maybe I'm just more long-winded. Anyway, I'm from the outside looking in, so our approaches to the broad subject of Amtrak are quite different. And that means there's a qualitative difference, because Thirdrail7 can get into the nuts and bolts of operations where I know nothing.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm not sure how me questioning a statement gives you a good reason to call me "son" or tell me to "chill" but I don't appreciate that.

I'm not worried about being emberassed... Because I don't claim to know anything!


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## Ryan (Jan 17, 2016)

At this point, the best you can post is "My bad, I didn't realize that the poster I questioned was actually a well-respected, clueful member of the community. I'll keep that in mind when reading his posts and posting in the future."

Or you can keep digging, it's somewhat entertaining.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2016)

Ryan said:


> At this point, the best you can post is "My bad, I didn't realize that the poster I questioned was actually a well-respected, clueful member of the community. I'll keep that in mind when reading his posts and posting in the future."
> 
> Or you can keep digging, it's somewhat entertaining.


Glad you're enjoying it! Song and dance is next! 

Seriously though... ThirdRail could be president Boardman himself but that still doesn't convince me that the business class diner section will actually operate in that fashion. My gut tells me this will quickly become the new Amtrak Crew lounge! That's why I'm interested in hearing first hand reports.

Now back to the topic... If, as third rail says, there is no bc car attendant on the Cardinal, is that normal? The last time I took BC on a Regional train there was no attendant but I know some of the trains have a dedicated BC attendant right?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, the best you can post is "My bad, I didn't realize that the poster I questioned was actually a well-respected, clueful member of the community. I'll keep that in mind when reading his posts and posting in the future."
> ...



There is always room for trouble when intent and application come into play. I can only explain intent. As I previously indicated, feel free to board the train and report back, since that is the ONLY true way to ascertain the application.

After all, thirteen people can take the trip and give a glowing review and the day you show up, the crew may occupy the space like it is Wall Street.

The North East regional trains lost their dedicated attendant years ago. Some state supported train retained their attendants. The Carolinian is a prime example.

But, you probably won't believe me.


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## west point (Jan 17, 2016)

Business class is becoming very interesting. As well as the premium Acela 1st class. There appears to be a very high unmet demand for First on Acela and much more Business class on various LD and regional trains. Even in this "slow" season now upon us the Business class seats are selling out especially Palmetto, Carolinian, Pennsylvanian.

Of course the first thing to do is get enough funds to rebuild Amfleets and Horizons for Business class so they can be added where needed. As well locomotive rebuilding's will be needed. Only then can Amtrak evaluate how much demand for BC there is on any route. Seems like the Cardinal with its one sleeper only ( except summer ) will be an interesting indication of how other routes may fare. Will BC steal from sleepers may be the most important question ?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2016)

Ha. I believe you.

I thought I remembered the Carolinian having one, and Surfliner trains too.

So who is responsible for taking care of the BC passengers?


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## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

Passengers need to be taken care of beyond the basics provided by the Conductors? The entire lucrative Acela BC service runs with no one special to take care of passengers!


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## neroden (Jan 17, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Like most trains, the Cardinal is under the winter operating plan.


Oooh. You just implied that Amtrak now has a "winter operating plan" and a "summer operating plan" (or at least a "rest of year operating plan") for each train.

This is a significant change from five years ago. And a good one.

Now, of course, my question is: are there standard dates for switching from summmer to winter operation, and back, which is the same on all trains? Or is it different on each train and in each year, depending on the weather reports or something?

 Hopefully this isn't classified information.


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## PVD (Jan 17, 2016)

What is the OBS complement on the Cardinal? I am curious as to the impact a bag-dorrm might have. Any thoughts?


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## Heading North (Jan 17, 2016)

I understand not having a designated attendant for 18 seats, but doesn't every revenue car on an LD train have some form of attendant just to keep an eye on stops, boarding/alighting, etc.? I suppose if it's just a matter of getting folks on and off the train, the adjacent SCA could pop in provided the two cars share a vestibule? Maybe I'll pop by in ALX one day to see how it's going.

Either way, I think this is a great step and now I just need an excuse to ride the Cardinal!


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 18, 2016)

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Like most trains, the Cardinal is under the winter operating plan.
> ...


I've seen a couple of Amtrak officials quoted making reference to "right-sizing" the trains now. Hope they can get it right.


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## OBS (Jan 18, 2016)

The OBS crew on the Cardinal consists of 4 people. The SCA, the Coach attendant, and the LSA and SA in the Diner/café...


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## PVD (Jan 18, 2016)

Thank you. So a bag dorm nets 3 saleable rooms (SCA stays in sleeper). If the train went full diner with a chef and an added LSA for a separate lounge car it could be 5.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 18, 2016)

jis said:


> Passengers need to be taken care of beyond the basics provided by the Conductors? The entire lucrative Acela BC service runs with no one special to take care of passengers!


I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic or not... (Acela BC is a total joke... it's coach to me.)

Either way... I was simply wondering who will be responsible for attending to the passengers in the BC car on the Cardinal.

Seat assignments, putting out the coffee, water, juice. Boarding and detraining. Keeping the car clean. Things like that.


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## Palmland (Jan 18, 2016)

I would be very surprised if Amtrak adds a BC car attendant. They are trying to add revenue (BC seating) without increasing costs at the direction of our friends in congress. The Cardinal is a small train and doesn't really justify another person given Amtrak's bare bones approach. One low cost solution: have the sleeping car attendant occasionally check on the BC car passengers and the lounge area and hand out the free snacks.

I wonder if passengers will be allowed to 'carry out' their dinners to the lounge area. Would probably be more pleasant than the crowded Am dinette - especially with some of the seating there having no window.


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## PaulM (Jan 18, 2016)

neroden said:


> Now, of course, my question is: are there standard dates for switching from summmer to winter operation, and back, which is the same on all trains? Or is it different on each train and in each year, depending on the weather reports or something?
> Hopefully this isn't classified information.


I would hope its based on *actual* ticket sales. Otherwise it makes no sense.

Early last February I rode the SW Chief, long before the announced end of the "winter operating plan"; and it had the non-winter consist*.*


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## PVD (Jan 19, 2016)

The service announcement does not mention snacks, just non alcoholic beverages. On the Empire Service trains there are no dedicated attendants, and a conductor or A/C directs you to the car. Being a LD train there are a few added possibilities on the Cardinal, we will know pretty soon how they handle it On Empire Service, you go to the same service counter as everyone else for your beverage service.


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## spidersfan351 (Jan 19, 2016)

The winter/summer operating plans are really a blessing for trains like the Cardinal, as I understand it, there is not enough equipment to cover the second sleeper and any additional Amfleet II coaches due to maintenance needs. By knocking these out during the winter months, when traffic is down, you can get a longer Cardinal at peak points.


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## sitzplatz17 (Jan 20, 2016)

Spotted the Cardinal at Union Station this morning.

Consist was Sprinter loco (being switched out), Viewliner Bag, One Sleeper, "new" business class, cafe and a couple of coaches.

Looked a little odd with two "cafe"-looking cars and two viewliners.


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## afigg (Jan 21, 2016)

PVD said:


> Thank you. So a bag dorm nets 3 saleable rooms (SCA stays in sleeper). If the train went full diner with a chef and an added LSA for a separate lounge car it could be 5.


The baggage-dorm car will provide 9 roomettes. So if Amtrak sets aside 3 to 5 roomettes for the crew (figuring they would have 1 spare for extra crew or Amtrak personnel taking the Cardinal for training, etc), the bag-dorm should provide roughly 4 roomettes for revenue sale. That is, assuming a full service diner car is not added, but under the current pressure to slash food service losses, odds are that against even after all 25 diner cars are delivered.

I suspect the standard non-summer/fall peak season consist for the Cardinal will comprise of a bag-dorm with 1 sleeper car which will still provide 7 to 8 more roomettes than it currently has with 1 Viewliner sleeper. Two sleepers plus bag-dorm would be deployed for the peak season, but with the BC lounge car now providing additional table seating space.


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## afigg (Jan 21, 2016)

Amtrak has posted a news release on the addition of the BC to the Cardinal: AN EVEN CLASSIER AMTRAK CARDINAL SERVICE (with some hyperbola. Who would consider the Cardinal level of service "classy"?).



> CHICAGO — The Cardinal (Trains 50 & 51) has long been known as one of the most scenic routes on the national Amtrak network. Now, with an available upgrade to Business class, it is an even more comfortable way to travel from New York to Chicago, via Washington; White Sulphur Springs, Va.; Cincinnati and Indianapolis, effective Jan. 19 and 20.
> 
> For a surcharge of $51 per person or less, passengers can enjoy bonus Amtrak Guest Rewards® points and the following amenities:
> 
> ...


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## andersone (Jan 21, 2016)

i posted this on another thread last friday

the local (Athens, OH) NPR station actually had about a two minute piece on the Cardinal.

miracles never cease


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## PVD (Jan 21, 2016)

afigg, I see what you are saying. When I was looking at it I wasn't even thinking of the spare rooms in the bag/dorm being sold, just the impact on the regular sleeper. But they do it in the Trans/Dorm cars, so why not? Point well taken.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jan 21, 2016)

afigg said:


> Amtrak has posted a news release... AN EVEN CLASSIER AMTRAK CARDINAL SERVICE ... Who would consider the Cardinal level of service "classy"?).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trying too hard to make a pun on "used to be only two classes of service, now we offer three". Good puns can make you groan, puns that fall flat really hurt.

Notice they focused so hard on selling to the upscale market at the Greenbrier that they got the stop in the wrong state? On the *SCHEDULES *at Amtrak.com it lists White Sulphur Springs, WV (Greenbrier). It gets about 5,000 riders (compared with 15,000 at Charlottesville).

I do like the way they emphasize the scenery. But wish they'd just drop the BS about "rolling along the banks of the Ohio"; that segment is usually done in the dark.


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## City of Miami (Jan 21, 2016)

I walked down to take a look at 51 on Wednesday. The new car looked like an Amfleet and was labeled 'Food Service Car.' I think it was numbered 48175. I have a photo with number if any one cares. No one was around the door of the adjacent sleeper so I climbed up and had a peek: 2x1 seating in the forward half of the car with brown leather-looking seats. There were at least half a dozen passengers present on the first day. 50 was 90 minutes late [unusual lately] and it was cold so I didn't walk down.


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## west point (Jan 21, 2016)

Well now business class 7 days a week IND - CHI ?


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## ceo418 (Feb 3, 2016)

Has anyone here actually tried Business Class on the Cardinal yet? I'm thinking of using some of my points for a quick weekend round trip to Chicago from New Jersey, and if there is actually access to the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago included with the business class fare I might consider taking the Cardinal for one leg of the trip. (I'm considering it without business class, too, but just wondering if the upgrade is worth the points).


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## abcnews (Feb 3, 2016)

I saw someone post on the FB group (Cardinal/Hoosier FB page) that they had just tried the new BC service and it sounded very nice. Not too many people. The lounge side and the restroom are not accessible to the coach passengers. They mentioned it was a lot like a quiet car, and they also said they would probably upgrade to BC in the future. There was no attendant, but juice, water, and ice was available (self service).

We're on the Cardinal in two weeks (bedroom) but we plan to check out the new car and the lounge area. I'll try to get a few photos.


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## Paull65 (Feb 7, 2016)

I was on the Cardinal 50 from Chicago to Washington leaving 1-30-16 in a roomette. The consist was a viewliner ii baggage, 1 sleeper, the business class with 1/2 leather seating and the tables on the other side, diner lite, and 2 coaches. I was in roomette 1. The way that the sleeper was hooked up roomette 1 was on the wrong side of the train to see the New river gorge. I was disappointed and I mentioned it to the SCA and she said to just go up to the Business car and sit at a table wherever I wanted. So, based on being told to do that, I have to assume that the tables in the Business car could also be used as a "lounge" for the sleeper car passengers. Anytime that I went in that car or passed through it to get to the diner lite, there were not many people at the tables (mostly no one). They picked up quite a few people in Business class at the Greenbrier stop and the Business Class was full until they got off in Manassas. There was coffee, bottled water, and juice in the café part of the business car and it was help yourself. There was also tea, decafe coffee and of course the hot water was available. All serve yourself. While in the Business car I did see the regular café person come over and make fresh coffee.

The Business car seemed to be the same as the Business/Café car that I was in when I took the Vermonter about 3 years ago in Business class. Except, of course, that it was really not the café car for the entire train as it was on the Vermonter.

I was going to book Business class for the trip except that a $214 roomette showed up on the Monday before and I got it. The business class add to coach was $47 so it worked out great for the price difference, especially with 4 meals included while on that leg of my trip. Sometimes things just work out...


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 7, 2016)

Paull65 said:


> The way that the sleeper was hooked up roomette 1 was on the wrong side of the train to see the New river gorge.* I was disappointed and I mentioned it to the SCA and she said to just go up to the Business car and sit at a table wherever I wanted. So, based on being told to do that, I have to assume that the tables in the Business car could also be used as a "lounge" for the sleeper car passengers. *



That is a good assumption since that is the intent. It is for the sleeper and business class passengers as indicated below:



Thirdrail7 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


Now, we have first hand information to back up what I posted before. Perhaps you can PM Crescent-Zephyr a copy of your trip report since it is unlikely he or she has traveled yet. That would help since it is clear that their is a skeptic in out midst:



crescent-zephyr said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, the best you can post is "My bad, I didn't realize that the poster I questioned was actually a well-respected, clueful member of the community. I'll keep that in mind when reading his posts and posting in the future."
> ...


Is this good enough for you or do you still not believe it?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 7, 2016)

Lol! Yes I believe you. May I bring you a peace offering of prepackaged strawberry cheesecake?


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## Anderson (Feb 7, 2016)

You know, if they're moving the longer-haul BC cars (e.g. the 2-1 ones) onto LD trains? I _seriously_ applaud that move. First, it gets some semi-dedicated lounge space for sleeper pax (one of the big pluses of the Starlight for me has always been that space). Second, it adds revenue. Finally...I'd like to see Amtrak seriously experiment with getting BC pax into the diners on some of the diner-equipped LD trains. An extra 18-21 pax eating in the dining car would doubtless help diner cost recovery (not to mention that I wouldn't be stuck using a room to guarantee getting dinner).


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## afigg (Feb 7, 2016)

Paull65 said:


> They picked up quite a few people in Business class at the Greenbrier stop and the Business Class was full until they got off in Manassas.


Stats for how may BC customers the Cardinal gets for trips between Greenbrier and the Northern Virginia, WAS, and NEC stops would be interesting. But I don't expect Amtrak to break those stats out unless NARP asks for the data and publishes it. Clearly a market that a daily Cardinal could tap into far more effectively than a 3 day a week train.


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## afigg (Feb 7, 2016)

Anderson said:


> You know, if they're moving the longer-haul BC cars (e.g. the 2-1 ones) onto LD trains? I _seriously_ applaud that move. First, it gets some semi-dedicated lounge space for sleeper pax (one of the big pluses of the Starlight for me has always been that space). Second, it adds revenue. Finally...I'd like to see Amtrak seriously experiment with getting BC pax into the diners on some of the diner-equipped LD trains. An extra 18-21 pax eating in the dining car would doubtless help diner cost recovery (not to mention that I wouldn't be stuck using a room to guarantee getting dinner).


If the Silver Star is not going to get its diner back. it would be the next logical train to add a similar BC / sleeper customer table-lounge car arrangement. I gather the constraint is the number of available club (BC) - dinette cars in use on corridor services. According to On-Track, On-Line, there are 44 active Amfleet I club-dinette cars and 9 Horizon club-dinette cars. If and when the new bi-levels arrive, the Horizon cars could be repurposed for the LD trains. Although that would create an even more mixed consist of Viewliners, Amfleet IIs, and 1 Horizons. Well unless a bunch of Horizons are reconfigured to LD use to create some all Viewliners-Horizons consist, but where the money comes from for that, who knows.


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## ain't no Metroliner (Feb 7, 2016)

I'm on 51 right now and I'm happy to report that the sleeper has wifi, as does the BC car and the diner lite.


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## AmtrakLKL (Feb 24, 2016)

I'm hearing some chatter that business class will expand to another eastern LDSL train soon. Not much in the way of details, just that it is coming. It's refreshing to see Amtrak trying new things to raise revenue.


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## jis (Feb 24, 2016)

The Eastern LD that will require the fewest BC cars dedicated to it after the Cardinal is the LSL, and it would provide BC service on a heavily traveled medium route on which all other trains have BC.


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## PVD (Feb 24, 2016)

That is a very good point, the Empire Service trains all have BC. The Lake might be a good choice NYP to Albany or Albany to points west with BC.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 24, 2016)

People are forgetting about the Adirondack which is a prime candidate for BC!

I agree that the Lake Shore would be an excellent LD choice also, not so sure about the Card however!


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## PVD (Feb 24, 2016)

I'm not sure BC past Albany would have as much impact on the ADK, but if NY would pay for it, I'd be happy to see it.


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## neroden (Feb 25, 2016)

Business class on the LSL is pretty logical, really, thanks to the presence of BC on the rest of Empire Service. I think:

(a) it would have to be a half-and-half car; I doubt the demand is there for a full BC car, and half-and-halfs get used on the rest of Empire Service

and (b) it would have to go to New York for service consistency.

This would provide a cafe on the New York-Albany portion of the run, which is highly desirable.

The full lounge is still needed west of Albany because it gets used very heavily overnight (really), and that should head to Boston as it does now. West of Albany, the half-and-half car could be staffed and the full lounge unstaffed. (There have been some periods when the LSL ran a cafe from Boston and a cafe from NY, one staffed and one unstaffed, so they know how to do it.)


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## PVD (Feb 25, 2016)

Having ridden the LSL as well as Empire Service a number of times, mostly to or from NYP, but also LSL to/from Albany and Chicago (driving down from LPL and leaving car) I agree with you assesment 100 %.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 25, 2016)

I like the idea of BC on the Cardinal--if someone wants to go, for example, from New York to Staunton, that could be an uncomfortably long ride in coach but not worth springing for a roomette.

I also like the idea for the Adirondack--I have avoided that train, even though I realize it has beautiful scenery, because it sounds much too crowded. With BC, you would at least be guaranteed a seat.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 26, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> I'm hearing some chatter that business class will expand to another eastern LDSL train soon. Not much in the way of details, just that it is coming. It's refreshing to see Amtrak trying new things to raise revenue.


It may come at the expense of an existing service.


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## Ryan (Feb 26, 2016)

All remaining single level diners? h34r:


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## afigg (Feb 26, 2016)

Ryan said:


> All remaining single level diners? h34r:


I suspect Thirdrail7 is writing about the limited supply of Amfleet I club-dinette cars with the BC seating on 1 side. If another eastern LD train gets the club-dinette car, a corridor train may have to lose the fancy 2x1 BC seats. However, if a state supported corridor train gets the full length BC Amfleet I car instead with 62 BC seats instead of 18 BC seats, that may be fine with the state DOT overseers because the additional BC seats can generate more revenue and thus reduced subsidies.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 26, 2016)

afigg said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > All remaining single level diners? h34r:
> ...


I was thinking something on the same line, but being unfamiliar with all the different types of cars and the corridor trains, etc, didn't want to post anything.


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## PVD (Feb 26, 2016)

The Empire Service trains that don't go past Albany have B/C but AFAIK the café is unstaffed. There are probably a few split cars that could be swapped out on those sets. Albany to Penn and back a few trains with some work tables might be very attractive and it may well be worth reconfiguring a few full BC cars to include that.


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## neroden (Feb 27, 2016)

PVD said:


> The Empire Service trains that don't go past Albany have B/C but AFAIK the café is unstaffed. There are probably a few split cars that could be swapped out on those sets.


Very logical place to put full business-class cars; no point in having the half-cafe if it's not staffed, that's a waste.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 27, 2016)

PVD said:


> The Empire Service trains that don't go past Albany have B/C but AFAIK the café is unstaffed. There are probably a few split cars that could be swapped out on those sets. Albany to Penn and back a few trains with some work tables might be very attractive and it may well be worth reconfiguring a few full BC cars to include that.





neroden said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > The Empire Service trains that don't go past Albany have B/C but AFAIK the café is unstaffed. There are probably a few split cars that could be swapped out on those sets.
> ...


The fleet is (pretty much) uniform for a reason. There are almost no consists that run exclusively NYP-ALB-NYP. There are a few sets that tend to stay local for a day or two however, if you remove the cafe, you rob yourself of the ability to combat a disruption. In other words, ALB 234 turns for NY 283 . You need the cafe car in the consist. ALB 236 turns for NY 235, so under your plan, the cafe car is removed. Sounds good, but now 234 has an equipment problem. Under the current, uniform fleet, 236's equipment can be moved up to represent 283. In your case, that equipment is useless as 283. You'd have to cut the extra coach and try to dig up a replacement cafe...which are quite elusive.

With a cafe in every consist, any set can represent any train, at any time, at any location. There are MANY days where the answer is "whatever is ready first, goes first."


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## neroden (Feb 28, 2016)

So, a better solution is to extend all the ALB-NYP trains to Niagara Falls. 

Yeah, I know...


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## City of Miami (Feb 28, 2016)

On 50 today at cvs the second coach of only 2 was completely empty. The BC car looked pretty well occupied though.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 28, 2016)

Thirdrail7 stated the why it gets done that way in NY. However there no reason we tax payers can't make Amtrak do it right for the people who are traveling. It's not like New York has no say in the matter anymore.

I am planning to make the NARP ESPA meeting in March. Too bad there is nobody from the State of New York Rail Division going to be there.

Ask the question before, but do we have one point of contact for NY state's Amtrak service?


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 28, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thirdrail7 stated the why it gets done that way in NY. However there no reason we tax payers can't make Amtrak do it right for the people who are traveling. It's not like New York has no say in the matter anymore.


Um...who do you think is behind the decisions? Do you really think Amtrak would use the valuable split club car if they had a choice? NYS has their assigned pool and this is how the utilization was worked out. The P32s are in their pool which is why they are coming out of the shops with an Empire State seal and Phase III paint. Even the pointing has to go through NYS.

Personally, I would love to take the split clubs off the ALB trains.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 28, 2016)

I think Amtrak made the decision. A long time before NY state was paying for the service. If the cafe cars are not in service, offer NY a full 2+1 car instead. More tickets to be sold, no more expensive to run than the cafe car.

Even if you need to refit a coach into a 2+1 business car, the increase revenue will cover the upgrade.

Heck sweeten the deal by add B-class to the LSL.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 28, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I think Amtrak made the decision. A long time before NY state was paying for the service. If the cafe cars are not in service, offer NY a full 2+1 car instead. More tickets to be sold, no more expensive to run than the cafe car.
> 
> Even if you need to refit a coach into a 2+1 business car, the increase revenue will cover the upgrade.
> 
> Heck sweeten the deal by add B-class to the LSL.



I'll attempt this one more time.

NYS has an assigned equipment pool. They've had it for quite some time. What happened a "long time ago" is no longer relevant. They decide their consists. If NYS wants to pay for full business class cars, they certainly have the means and the option.

Additionally, the 2+1 cars have been gone for years and I can't see NYS paying to refit a full coach into a 33 seater.

Ideally, the 53 seat cafe car would still exist and solve a lot of problems system wide.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 3, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> I'm hearing some chatter that business class will expand to another eastern LDSL train soon. Not much in the way of details, just that it is coming. It's refreshing to see Amtrak trying new things to raise revenue.



Well? Are you starting a new thread?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 5, 2016)

"B-Class will be on the Lake Shore Limited soon"

Per Amtrak, of course your "soon" and Amtrak soon may not be the same.

ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 6, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> "B-Class will be on the Lake Shore Limited soon"
> 
> Per Amtrak, of course your "soon" and Amtrak soon may not be the same.
> 
> ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting.



There is definitely something coming before that. h34r:


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## Paulus (Mar 6, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> "B-Class will be on the Lake Shore Limited soon"
> 
> Per Amtrak, of course your "soon" and Amtrak soon may not be the same.
> 
> ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting.


Good. Given the immense coach traffic on that train, and the high fares, that should rake in quite a lot of money.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 6, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> There is definitely something coming before that. h34r:


And that something is called a V2 Crew/Bagged car, and a V2 dinner for in service testing. The lack of a real winter, and a early spring not helping the testing.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 6, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > There is definitely something coming before that. h34r:
> ...




Um...no. I wouldn't bring that up in the business class thread as I would bring that up in the viewliner thread. There is a LD train that will soon feature business class. If no one brings it up, I will post it provided it shows on the website.


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## neroden (Mar 6, 2016)

Bruce Becker made some entertaining comments about business class at the ESPA/NARP meeting. He said that according to his informal surveys, the primary reason for people to take business class was not any specific amenity -- it was "so I'm not with the coach passengers".

"The class system is alive and well in America!" I certainly can believe it.

So, only partially tongue in cheek...

Maybe it's time to reinstate the much more complicated class systems which used to exist! Oceangoing ships had classes ranging from first class to fifth class and more. Early trains in the UK all had first, second, and third class, plus special additional higher classes for ship connecting traffic, and sub-third-class options for seasonal workers.

There's something which automobiles can't give you: class differentiation and status. Rather than standardizing Amtrak's business class cars, why not give each type of service a separate name, and offer more and more different classes on each train...

OK, I know there are several good reasons why not, but it's worth thinking about.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 6, 2016)

neroden said:


> There's something which automobiles can't give you: class differentiation and status. .


To play devils advocate you could say that BMW and Lexus. Maybe even Rolls Royce. There is a certain status to that and you can tell going down the road who has the money based on their car. But at the same time the roads are the same and everyone rides by themselves or with their select group of people. So in a way your right.


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## neroden (Mar 6, 2016)

I guess there are "Lexus lanes" where you pay to go on the toll road, but there really aren't that many of them. Rich are stuck in traffic just like the poor are...

While Amtrak has neatly separated Acela passengers from Northeast Regional passengers. Hmm. Anyway, it's interesting.


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