# Ticket counters not accepting cash?



## MIrailfan (Feb 21, 2021)

T hats strange. Cash is legal tender.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 21, 2021)

MIRAILFAN said:


> T hats strange. Cash is legal tender.



Cash is not accepted on board the trains either. Covid and all.


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## me_little_me (Feb 21, 2021)

"This note is legal tender for all debts public and private"


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## Qapla (Feb 21, 2021)

There are many places that are not currently accepting cash due to COVID


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 21, 2021)

Qapla said:


> There are many places that are not currently accepting cash due to COVID



Even my local small town coffee shop has gone cashless. The owner says she doesn’t plan on going back, she says it’s easier this way. 

I know that even before covid airlines didn’t take cash on board, it was credit card sales only.


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## jis (Feb 21, 2021)

The Fed - Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?


The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.



www.federalreserve.gov













Fact check: No US law requires businesses to take cash, but local laws may mandate it


A viral post claims it is illegal for a business to go cashless. No federal law prohibits this, but some states and cities have their own laws.



www.usatoday.com













Should you ditch your cash? A growing number of cities say no way


From Philadelphia to San Francisco, several cities and states have passed or are considering bills banning retailers from refusing to accept cash



www.usatoday.com













Is It Legal for Businesses to Refuse to Take Cash? - FindLaw


Adoption of cashless retailers is spreading. So is the opposition.




blogs.findlaw.com


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## me_little_me (Feb 21, 2021)

jis said:


> The Fed - Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
> 
> 
> The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.
> ...


"Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor."

Sounds like this is saying that if I walk into a restaurant then go to pay at the counter and offer cash, if they refuse it, I am not obligated to offer any other form of payment and could not be prosecuted for non-payment as long as my offer remains.
It might be a different issue if I have to pay in advance because I have not incurred a debt until I have received something as the other party is not yet a "creditor". They could just refuse to sell it to me. So if I consume the product - or even just open it where the seller insists I must then pay for it because they cannot or will not take it back, then they must accept the cash or accept no further offer of any form of payment as I have offered a legal way to satisfy my debt to them.

I missed my calling. I should have been a sleazy lawyer.


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## Qapla (Feb 21, 2021)

That line if thinking was "shot down" back in the 1980's when apartment complexes quit accepting cash due to theft risk - it was upheld in court.


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## me_little_me (Feb 21, 2021)

Qapla said:


> That line if thinking was "shot down" back in the 1980's when apartment complexes quit accepting cash due to theft risk - it was upheld in court.


Which court? If not the Supreme Court, then it was not necessarily "shot down".


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## PVD (Feb 21, 2021)

The real meaning of legal tender is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there, and people always quote a bunch of stuff that doesn't mean what they think it does. The US Treasury website has a pretty good explanation, and they are likely to be more knowledgeable on the subject than most of the internet experts. Some local governments have passed laws requiring cash in some businesses, but obviously it wouldn't apply to Amtrak anyway.


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## niemi24s (Feb 21, 2021)

MIRAILFAN said:


> T hats strange. Cash is legal tender.


And that includes coins. 

So who'll be the first to try to pay for their train ride with pennies?


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## PVD (Feb 21, 2021)

Not true, unless a local law prohibits it businesses are free to decide what to accept. What they can't do is not let people know ahead of time.


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## flitcraft (Feb 21, 2021)

No business is legally required to accept cash for goods or services under federal law, though some states and municipalities have passed laws requiring certain businesses to provide a non-credit card payment option. None of the state laws apply to interstate commerce, though, as anyone who has tried to buy a drink or snack on a plane in the last decade or so can confirm. No credit card, no snack box.

Even the language that would appear to allow payment of taxes in coinage is not as iron-clad as a literal reading might presume. It's true, the IRS will allow you to use cash to pay your taxes, but they are free to set the terms of that--which includes having to register specially to do so, having to pay before the tax deadline to allow for processing of the cash, being limited to paying a maximum of $1000 a day, and being charged a daily processing fee for each cash payment. 

People are free to believe anything they like about law--but it doesn't make their beliefs an accurate reflection of the law. This reminds me of a case in Washington state where someone claimed that his sentence after a criminal conviction was illegal because the sentencing judge's robes were not silk, as stated in the state constitution, but polyester. Turned out that court interpretations' of legal language is a lot more sensible than most non-lawyers give it credit for. He served his 'illegal' sentence in the end.


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## Dutchrailnut (Feb 21, 2021)

This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor." correct and if a merchant is not delivering a product/item there is no debt yet.


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## flitcraft (Feb 21, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> And that includes coins. So who'll be the first to try to pay for their train ride with pennies?



I nominate MIRAILFAN.  Let us know how it goes...


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 21, 2021)

I was on one of the Silvers to Florida a few years ago in a sleeper, and my dining table companion was a lady from coach who had just been to Atlantic City.

She had a jar of quarters with her, and when her bill came for the meal, she paid it with a bunch of quarters from the jar.


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## PVD (Feb 21, 2021)

Many businesses will, some won't. Quarters aren't too bad, they make a $10 roll, and are often used in making change. It is not uncommon to see businesses not accept large quantities of coin or large denomination bills. Most are pretty good at putting up notices. Think of a restaurant, if they didn't have a notice up, what exactly could they say to someone who goes to pay the check and only has cash.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 21, 2021)

Actually, many places were begging for coins in 2020 due to the coin shortage. Not sure if they still are. I took about $25 worth of coins to one of the convenience stores I frequent and cashed it in for paper money. They were happy to get the coins. I was even offered a free sandwich, but since it wasn't lunch time yet, I asked if I could get a small milkshake and she said yes.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 22, 2021)

PVD said:


> Think of a restaurant, if they didn't have a notice up, what exactly could they say to someone who goes to pay the check and only has cash



There is a local high end steakhouse in my community that only accepts cash or a check. No credit cards; not sure about debit cards. They have a notice on their web site about this procedure; not sure about whether there is one in the restaurant or not. It's been a very long time since I patronized them.


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## Qapla (Feb 22, 2021)

In our area many convenience stores were asking for coins when the pandemic first started ... since then, many have gone to a "card preferred" or "card only" policy.

Some of the places that used to be "cash only" (we did have a couple of them) have since either closed of changed to the card - especially since many patrons do not want to handle cash any more than the businesses do since C-19 started.


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## railiner (Feb 22, 2021)

For a small business to go cashless, it has the benefit of reducing embezzlement by cashier's.
OTOH, it makes it hard for a 'cash business' to cheat on sales taxes...


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## Qapla (Feb 22, 2021)

The Florida tax auditors have done a pretty good job of minimizing sales tac fraud - they are pretty thorough and the penalties quite stiff


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## me_little_me (Feb 22, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> There is a local high end steakhouse in my community that only accepts cash or a check. No credit cards; not sure about debit cards. They have a notice on their web site about this procedure; not sure about whether there is one in the restaurant or not. It's been a very long time since I patronized them.


We have a lot of them. Small businesses get ripped off big time by the high vigorish the banks take for using credit cards and where I live, there are LOTS of small, local restaurants and I don't patronize chains or their minions. So if they don't take CC or charge extra for CC, I pay in cash.


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## PaTrainFan (Feb 22, 2021)

If given a choice most businesses would probably prefer not to take credit cards, given the interchange fees they have to pay to the card issuers. But given that the vast majority of consumers want to pay by credit card it forces businesses to pay for the customers' convenience. They would prefer debit over credit, as debit interchange fees are much lower. And the card issuer makes nothing on me because I never carry a balance, thus no interest to them.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 22, 2021)

If you use square or stripe the fees are super low - just build it into your prices and stop crying. I’m sure small businesses would prefer not to pay the electric each month as well but it costs money to have a business. Haha.


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## jebr (Feb 22, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> If you use square or stripe the fees are super low - just build it into your prices and stop crying. I’m sure small businesses would prefer not to pay the electric each month as well but it costs money to have a business. Haha.



Square costs 2.6% of each transaction, plus 10 cents off the top as well. There's also no discount for debit cards, even though they're cheaper to run than credit cards. If you're running a low-margin business, especially one with a lot of small transactions, that adds up quickly. There's also the risk of chargebacks and dealing with those, which are not something that has to be worried about with cash transactions. There's certainly costs and risks with other payment methods, but accepting credit cards has one of the most direct costs off the top of every transaction, and unless you go completely cashless most of those expenses still exist anyways (theft is still a risk whether you have $100 or $10,000/day in cash transactions, and you still have to go in and deposit that cash frequently regardless.)

There's still places around here that are cash or check only - the check part still surprises me, as I'd expect that to have a high level of risk (bounced, invalid, or stopped checks.) They usually have an ATM on site, so if you don't have cash or check you can pay $2.50 and get cash out.


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## jis (Feb 22, 2021)

I guess I might upset some people here by admitting up front that I am more or less cashless using only credit cards. I don’t mind paying a little extra for the convenience of using a credit card. I do have cash for emergencies, but I avoid cash only businesses. I have a bank debit card but it stays securely stashed away and is only occasionally used to withdraw cash from the bank ATM.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 22, 2021)

jis said:


> I guess I might upset some people here by admitting up front that I am more or less cashless using only credit cards. I don’t mind paying a little extra for the convenience of using a credit card. I do have cash for emergencies, but I avoid cash only businesses. I have a bank debit card but it stays securely stashed away and is only occasionally used to withdraw cash from the bank ATM.


I don't use Cash that much either, but my ATM card is in reserve if Cash is needed.


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## jebr (Feb 22, 2021)

jis said:


> I guess I might upset some people here by admitting up front that I am more or less cashless using only credit cards. I don’t mind paying a little extra for the convenience of using a credit card. I do have cash for emergencies, but I avoid cash only businesses. I have a bank debit card but it stays securely stashed away and is only occasionally used to withdraw cash from the bank ATM.



Despite my last post, I'm generally the same way, though I'm willing to make exceptions if the business is a place I particularly like or has particularly good deals. I usually only carry a little bit of emergency cash, and there's two places that I go to semi-regularly that I remember to bring the checkbook with when I go there. One of them is a local restaurant that's nearby and we like (a fair amount of options, pretty inexpensive for what you get) and the other is a liquor store and Italian market that has prices cheaper than almost anywhere else while having a great selection, and I like their Italian food selection as well. I'll also try to have cash when I visit the local Hmong market, though more and more vendors there will take a card, at least for a fee. Most other places I go I'll pay with card, though, and I prefer places that at least have that option available (as most places seem to do these days.)


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## MIrailfan (Feb 22, 2021)

Cash keeps tyou from overspending usually, unlike credit cards.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 22, 2021)

jis said:


> I guess I might upset some people here by admitting up front that I am more or less cashless using only credit cards. I don’t mind paying a little extra for the convenience of using a credit card. I do have cash for emergencies, but I avoid cash only businesses. I have a bank debit card but it stays securely stashed away and is only occasionally used to withdraw cash from the bank ATM.



Same here. One of the only reasons I ever carry cash is to tip Amtrak attendants and luggage storage. Everything else I put on a credit card and Ideally I never have to use my physical card because I pay on my phone.


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## joelkfla (Feb 22, 2021)

I keep $20 in my wallet for emergencies, but I've forgotten why.  Old habits die hard.

The only cash I've used in the past couple of years was playing Bingo at the local senior center, and tips on the train and other places when traveling.


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## flitcraft (Feb 23, 2021)

MIRAILFAN said:


> Cash keeps you from overspending usually, unlike credit cards.



Is that ever true! Once, years ago, when I had only one credit card, I got a call from the credit union letting me know that someone had charged stuff on my card, and once I confirmed that I hadn't authorized it, they said they'd cancel the card and send me a new one in 4 weeks. The only problem was, this was in early December and I hadn't done my Christmas shopping yet. So, that year, I had to head to an ATM before every shopping outing and peel off bills to pay for things. It was harder to buy that gift sweater when I had to count out several tens than to just swipe a card without any sense of how much I was spending. My daughter remembers that Christmas as the year that nobody got all that much for Christmas!!


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## WWW (Feb 23, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> And that includes coins.
> 
> So who'll be the first to try to pay for their train ride with pennies?



You couldn't carry the weight (conveniently) in pennies to satisfy the fares Amtrak charges.
All that dead weight and no pockets or machines to use it in.
The closer to quarters you get the odds change.

Pennies - roll 50 in a roll - $.50
Nickels - roll 40 in a roll - $2.00
Dimes - roll 50 in a roll - $5.00
Quarters - roll 40 in a roll - $10.00 - - - Bingo something a machine can digest !

Still yet no wonder the conductors don't want to be bothered by petty change - the ole
belt coin change machine is a distant past and would never handle the volume in todays market.

The filthy paper lira - how do you know if it is legitimate or counterfeit ?

The plastic c c just swipe or chip insert and now even some you just wand over a scan device
is the current readily accepted method - you want a receipt - they send it to your email.

At light rail metro stations small coin (not pennies nickels dimes) quarters and bills $1s or $5s
and Credit Cards are accepted and in most cases you use the dispensed token card for a time
limited journey including transfers to your destination. 

We are fastly approaching and now without a doubt the Star Trek day when cash will be

(what are you talking about ?)

only something in a bank account to ELECTRONICALLY move from one medium to another.


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## Everydaymatters (Feb 23, 2021)

I hadn't really thought about it, but I don't remember the last time I used cash. Many years ago I read an article about a future cashless society and I thought that was ridiculous.


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## Barb Stout (Feb 23, 2021)

Some people keep cash on their person in order to dole a few bills out to street beggars. We have a lot of them in Albuquerque. How about other places?


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 23, 2021)

I carry some cash but just don't seem to have to use it. Everything is Tap. Either my Credit or Bank Card. When Covid hit...they upped the Tap limit and now it's only anything over $250 that you have to enter your PIN. Haven't signed a credit card slip in years!


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 23, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> Some people keep cash on their person in order to dole a few bills out to street beggars. We have a lot of them in Albuquerque. How about other places?


I keep some cash in my car for the rare occasions I might need to go through a toll booth. Sometimes I'll use some of it to give to a homeless person at an intersection (if I have the red light, of course).


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## jis (Feb 23, 2021)

Speaking of Toll Booths, I still keep my EZ Pass handy though usually in its protective case. It now works in most of the east coast, including Florida. Though in Florida I use the SunPass. But when I visit the northeast I take along my EZ Pass. Haven't paid any cash toll in ages. 

In NY Subway you can now just use Apple Pay or Google Pay from your smartphone or smart watch, using it as a tap and go device. I have done that quite a bit using my Apple Watch. Very convenient and no shuffling around in the pocket to find the right card to tap on the turnstile.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 23, 2021)

jis said:


> In NY Subway you can now just use Apple Pay or Google Pay from your smartphone or smart watch, using it as a tap and go device. I have done that quite a bit using my Apple Watch. Very convenient and no shuffling around in the pocket to find the right card to tap on the turnstile.



That’s really cool. I’m guessing you’d still need to swipe a card to use transfers?


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## TrackWalker (Feb 23, 2021)

Everydaymatters said:


> I hadn't really thought about it, but I don't remember the last time I used cash. Many years ago I read an article about a future cashless society and I thought that was ridiculous.



When cash is outlawed, only outlaws will carry cash.


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## jis (Feb 23, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s really cool. I’m guessing you’d still need to swipe a card to use transfers?


If the transfer point is equipped with a tap device then tapping the same Apple Watch should work for the transfer. The system knows the identity of the device that was used last and where it was used.

This is very similar to the system in London Oyster Card territory, not surprisingly, since it is pretty much the same infrastructure. Oyster has the extra feature that it automatically stops charging once you reach the price of a day pass for the zones you traveled in and the time of day in which you did so. London fare structure is way more complex than the NY one.

Anybody worried about the government tracing their movement should of course immediately stop using their cell phone and any other such device, including tap to pay devices. 

My only gripe is that all turnstiles are "right handed", i.e. the tap pad is on the right side of the path into the turnstile. I wear my watch on my left wrist, so it take a bit of a contortion to hit the tap pad when in a hurry. Same case in London too.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 23, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> Some people keep cash on their person in order to dole a few bills out to street beggars. We have a lot of them in Albuquerque. How about other places?


Yep, we've always had the panhandlers/homeless( in the old days they were called beggars or bums) in the Cities( mostly Males, but now more and more Females and Families)
,but in the past 4 years, due to Government policies, there has been a huge increase in their numbers.

A new feature here in Austin are the Encampments with Tents, thousands of them, like those in the West Coast Cities.

The Local Anti-Poor People Movement( aka Conservatives/Republicans/ Trumpers) has petitioned to get an Anti-Camping Measure on the Ballot to prohibit Camping in Public and Panhandling.


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## Chatter163 (Feb 23, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> I missed my calling. I should have been a sleazy lawyer.



You flatter yourself. Hope your arm doesn't hurt from patting yourself on the back.


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## tricia (Feb 23, 2021)

jebr said:


> Square costs 2.6% of each transaction, plus 10 cents off the top as well. There's also no discount for debit cards, even though they're cheaper to run than credit cards. If you're running a low-margin business, especially one with a lot of small transactions, that adds up quickly. There's also the risk of chargebacks and dealing with those, which are not something that has to be worried about with cash transactions. There's certainly costs and risks with other payment methods, but accepting credit cards has one of the most direct costs off the top of every transaction, and unless you go completely cashless most of those expenses still exist anyways (theft is still a risk whether you have $100 or $10,000/day in cash transactions, and you still have to go in and deposit that cash frequently regardless.)
> 
> There's still places around here that are cash or check only - the check part still surprises me, as I'd expect that to have a high level of risk (bounced, invalid, or stopped checks.) They usually have an ATM on site, so if you don't have cash or check you can pay $2.50 and get cash out.



Square charges more for transactions where the merchant isn't handed a physical card (over the phone, payment online...). IIRC, it's 4%. Which adds up even faster.

Has it been verified anywhere in this thread that Amtrak is in fact not accepting cash presented at a station to buy a ticket? If so, do they make a religious accommodation for their substantial Amish/Mennonite clientele, many of whom don't use credit cards?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 23, 2021)

tricia said:


> Has it been verified anywhere in this thread that Amtrak is in fact not accepting cash presented at a station to buy a ticket?



According to Amtrak.com, Amtrak is not accepting cash in stations or on trains. It’s been this way for almost a year now. 

Purchasing and Picking-Up Amtrak Tickets Onboard


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## jis (Feb 23, 2021)

Here is what Amtrak's "Purchase Train Ticket" page on its website says: (Quick summary - no cash)









How to Purchase Amtrak Train Tickets


Booking travel has never been easier when you buy tickets online or through your mobile device. Learn more about our purchase options and let Amtrak take you places.




www.amtrak.com


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## caravanman (Feb 23, 2021)

After one trip to the USA, I was on the homeward leg, and wanted to spend my loose coins in the café car aboard the Zephyr, but the attendant refused to take them as payment. I think he had probably cashed up and did not want to bother counting my coins. I paid with a note, but my sleeping car attendant got his tip in coins!
Do attendants still accept cash "tips" on Amtrak?


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## joelkfla (Feb 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Speaking of Toll Booths, I still keep my EZ Pass handy though usually in its protective case. It now works in most of the east coast, including Florida. Though in Florida I use the SunPass. But when I visit the northeast I take along my EZ Pass. Haven't paid any cash toll in ages.


In FL, E-ZPass only works on roads in the Orlando area that are managed by the local Expressway Authority (E-PASS). It still won't work on roads elsewhere in the state, or on those in the Orlando area that are managed by the Turnpike Enterprise (SunPass). They keep saying they're working on it, but the promised dates keep slipping by with no change. Many toll roads in the Orlando area have some sections that are E-PASS and others that are SunPass, on the same road.

The currently offered portable E-PASS transponder, called UNI, works on both SunPass & out-of-state E-ZPass roads.


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## jis (Feb 23, 2021)

caravanman said:


> Do attendants still accept cash "tips" on Amtrak?


Amtrak is not a party in the car attendant "tips" transaction, so I doubt it has an opinion on the matter. It is upto the attendant . whatever he/she wants. Maybe some prefer Bitcoin, who knows?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Amtrak is not a party in the car attendant "tips" transaction, so I doubt it has an opinion on the matter. It is upto the attendant . whatever he/she wants. Maybe some prefer Bitcoin, who knows?



I would absolutely love it if I could paypal or Venmo my attendant. I hate keeping up with cash just for tips and have been known to order wine in the dining car just so I can tip on my credit card! Haha


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## jis (Feb 23, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> In FL, E-ZPass only works on roads in the Orlando area that are managed by the local Expressway Authority (E-PASS). It still won't work on roads elsewhere in the state, or on those in the Orlando area that are managed by the Turnpike Enterprise (SunPass). They keep saying they're working on it, but the promised dates keep slipping by with no change. Many toll roads in the Orlando area have some sections that are E-PASS and others that are SunPass, on the same road.
> 
> The currently offered portable E-PASS transponder, called UNI, works on both SunPass & out-of-state E-ZPass roads.


I just use a SunPass in Florida. E Pass and SunPass are interoperable, i.e. they work on each others territory. I have no reason to get yet another EZ Pass or equivalent, since I have my original from when I lived up north.


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## bms (Feb 24, 2021)

Usually when I buy from the Cafe Car, the LSA rings up my Amtrak Mastercard and there's no place to tip. I give a dollar if I have one and there's a cash tip area, but it's certainly happened that I was coming back from the West Coast and didn't have cash on me.

Other times, I order from the LSA and do tip on the card, so I'm not sure why it is different from trip to trip.


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## Cal (May 10, 2021)

Are LD trains accepting cash now? The Pacific Surfliner cafes are accepting cash.


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## neroden (May 10, 2021)

Qapla said:


> That line if thinking was "shot down" back in the 1980's when apartment complexes quit accepting cash due to theft risk - it was upheld in court.



Wrong. me_little_me's analysis is exactly correct.

If you have already received the goods or services (so, you've incurred a debt), and did not specifically contract to pay in another form (gold, Bitcoin, Tesla stock, whatever), then you can offer to pay your debt in cash and they have to take it or forgive the debt.

If you have not recieved the goods or services yet (which is *always* the case when buying train tickets) then they can refuse to take cash. (No, you can't get around this by getting on the train without a ticket and then trying to pay for a ticket. For that, they can just throw you off the train.)

Most apartment complexes bill for rent BEFORE the month for which the rent is. If they billed AFTER the month you were present -- billing in arrears -- then they would have to take cash. But they don't. So, if you fail to pay your rent on time, and then later offer cash to cover the *debt* you incur, they have to take it or forgive the *debt* -- but they can still evict you for not paying your rent on time.

When you start looking into it, you'll discover that there are relatively few circumstances under which you generate a *debt* by receiving goods or services, legitimately, before paying for them. Sit-down restaurants are one. Construction contractors and repairmen are another. I can't think of a third common example. Almost all businesses have moved to pay-up-front, and most of those who haven't (in the business-to-business sector) specify form of payment in their contract (which overrides the legal tender laws).


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## neroden (May 10, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> Even the language that would appear to allow payment of taxes in coinage is not as iron-clad as a literal reading might presume. It's true, the IRS will allow you to use cash to pay your taxes, but they are free to set the terms of that--which includes having to register specially to do so, having to pay before the tax deadline to allow for processing of the cash, being limited to paying a maximum of $1000 a day, and being charged a daily processing fee for each cash payment.



All of that was seriously disputed in court and much of it was thrown out in the lawsuits by the marijuana businesses (who did not have access to checks or cards or wire transfers). Result of the cases: Nope. The IRS has to accept cash payments without charging extra fees or creating extra hassle. The IRS figured out they were going to lose and backed off. The marijuana businesses show up and hand over their large piles of cash at a scheduled date at a specific location to the IRS person authorized to accept it. No daily processing fee. No maximum.


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## neroden (May 10, 2021)

jebr said:


> There's still places around here that are cash or check only - the check part still surprises me, as I'd expect that to have a high level of risk (bounced, invalid, or stopped checks.)


Around here it's usually cash or *local* check; apparently the risk with local checks is low.


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## tricia (May 10, 2021)

Thinking of Amtrak's substantial number of Amish customers: Might accepting cash be required as a "reasonable accommodation" of religious practice?


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## TheVig (May 10, 2021)

tricia said:


> Thinking of Amtrak's substantial number of Amish customers: Might accepting cash be required as a "reasonable accommodation" of religious practice?



Amish will use a non Amish person such as myself to buy their tickets for them. Give me the cash, and I buy the tickets on my card. They don’t typically participate in the religious grievance industry or align themselves with various acronym protest groups.

Their ways might be a little strange to us. But I have found doing business with them quite enjoyable.


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## MIrailfan (May 11, 2021)

Cash is my primary method of payment.


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## CTANut (May 21, 2021)

I saw an Amish passenger buy cafe car food with a credit card. However, at the fast food restaurant that I work at, the Amish tend to use cash.


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## me_little_me (May 21, 2021)

CTANut said:


> I saw an Amish passenger buy cafe car food with a credit card. However, at the fast food restaurant that I work at, the Amish tend to use cash.


Like everyone else, there are those that strictly practice what they believe, those that try hard but compromise somewhat, those that pretend and those that believe in name only. It happens in everything - from religion to vegetarianism to being "green" to ...


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## joelkfla (May 21, 2021)

There are many communities of Amish people, and there is a great amount of variation of customs and acceptance of technology among the different communities. According to the website AmishAmerica.com, credit card usage is acceptable and common in many Amish communities.

Blanket statements about all Amish people are usually misguided. It's not that some are breaking the rules, it's that the rules differ among different groups.


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## plane2train (May 21, 2021)

I don't see why in this day and age we can't go cashless. You can buy a Visa Vanilla card with cash and use it for transactions quite easily. You don't need a credit score to get one. However, there are many times when cash does come in handy: at bars so you can control how much you spend on booze (I've seen some huge bar bills), quick transactions at convenience stores and maybe the post office to buy stamps. The airlines have installed machines where you can buy a card to pay for a plane ticket, and I don't see why Amtrak couldn't do the same for those few that really want to pay cash for their $356 ticket.


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## bratkinson (May 21, 2021)

plane2train said:


> I don't see why in this day and age we can't go cashless.



This past April, while aboard train #174 from WAS, the Wifi wasn't working. As a result, the cashless lounge car was 'out of business' for the duration. Only after numerous complaints and a new onboard crew at NYP, they FINALLY got it fixed about Stamford. Or, perhaps, they took my advice and simply converted their cellphone to a single user Wifi hot spot like I did to use my laptop.

I would anticipate the same lack/spotty of Wifi service found on western LD trains and the Capitol Ltd WAS-PGH will be a limitation of the 'cashless' craze aboard Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 21, 2021)

bratkinson said:


> This past April, while aboard train #174 from WAS, the Wifi wasn't working. As a result, the cashless lounge car was 'out of business' for the duration. Only after numerous complaints and a new onboard crew at NYP, they FINALLY got it fixed about Stamford. Or, perhaps, they took my advice and simply converted their cellphone to a single user Wifi hot spot like I did to use my laptop.
> 
> I would anticipate the same lack/spotty of Wifi service found on western LD trains and the Capitol Ltd WAS-PGH will be a limitation of the 'cashless' craze aboard Amtrak.



You can set satellite credit card machines to store the credit card data and complete the sale when it has signal. 

This was standard practice for me when working for a tourist railroad.


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## Cal (May 21, 2021)

bratkinson said:


> This past April, while aboard train #174 from WAS, the Wifi wasn't working. As a result, the cashless lounge car was 'out of business' for the duration. Only after numerous complaints and a new onboard crew at NYP, they FINALLY got it fixed about Stamford. Or, perhaps, they took my advice and simply converted their cellphone to a single user Wifi hot spot like I did to use my laptop.
> 
> I would anticipate the same lack/spotty of Wifi service found on western LD trains and the Capitol Ltd WAS-PGH will be a limitation of the 'cashless' craze aboard Amtrak.


I've made purchases with a credit card on Western LD trains through areas without service. If they couldn't do that, the Cafe wouldnt be open for much of the trip.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2021)

plane2train said:


> I don't see why in this day and age we can't go cashless.


I don't see how my decision to pay with cash impacts you in any way whatsoever.



plane2train said:


> The airlines have installed machines where you can buy a card to pay for a plane ticket, and I don't see why Amtrak couldn't do the same for those few that really want to pay cash for their $356 ticket.


This is apparently due to a law that forces US airlines to flag and report cash sales which does not apply to Amtrak.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 22, 2021)

plane2train said:


> I don't see why in this day and age we can't go cashless. You can buy a Visa Vanilla card with cash and use it for transactions quite easily. You don't need a credit score to get one. However, there are many times when cash does come in handy: at bars so you can control how much you spend on booze (I've seen some huge bar bills), quick transactions at convenience stores and maybe the post office to buy stamps. The airlines have installed machines where you can buy a card to pay for a plane ticket, and I don't see why Amtrak couldn't do the same for those few that really want to pay cash for their $356 ticket.


The ticket counter at the new train hall at NYP has the machines that convert cash to a credit card. It’s off to the side so is not noticeable. Don’t know if there’s a sign near the counter to let people know it’s there.


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## WWW (May 22, 2021)

Understand that there is always the issue of security of money and it being legit !

This is apparently due to a law that forces US airlines to flag and report cash sales which does not apply to Amtrak.
Isn't that amount amounts over $10K ?

Side note ATMs are not very useful as they limit the amount of daily disbursements and even maybe further restricted by the card holder to
his own device. Debit cards may also have fine print restricted uses.

One could pre-load a debit card or other financial card in advance to pay expenses in route. 

Other than that - what is wrong with taking "LEGAL TENDER" at all times as long as it is not in pennies nickels dimes and quarters ?


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## PVD (May 22, 2021)

You have to count it, safeguard it, arrange for it to be deposited in a bank, and have enough on hand ahead of time to make change.. Those are some of the reasons businesses often try and avoid cash. Plastic has costs of its own, for sure, but the difference is not as great as people think.


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## me_little_me (May 22, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't see how my decision to pay with cash impacts you in any way whatsoever.
> 
> This is apparently due to a law that forces US airlines to flag and report cash sales which does not apply to Amtrak.


No, rather that those paying cash, particularly for one-way flights, are suspected of being possible terrorists or drug runners or money launderers or doing something suspicious ala those carrying more than $10K in cash across the border and those making $10K+ deposits at banks.


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## jis (May 22, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> No, rather that those paying cash, particularly for one-way flights, are suspected of being possible terrorists or drug runners or money launderers or doing something suspicious ala those carrying more than $10K in cash across the border and those making $10K+ deposits at banks.


Indeed, $10K is a different issue from cash purchase of tickets. A $10K+ transfer even electronically is supposed to be reported and recorded specially by the banks. When I used to transfer money to my parents, if it was a larger than $10K block, I had to put in extra paper work as I seem to recall.

Cash purchase of tickets was supposed to be for untraceability, some thing that various nefarious folks pine for apparently, and hence are supposed to be reported to the security systems like CAPS II and such for tracking and tracing, and usually it will earn you an SSSS on your boarding card if not an outright denial of boarding, depending on the security level active at the time.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 22, 2021)

jis said:


> Cash purchase of tickets was supposed to be for untraceability, some thing that various nefarious folks pine for apparently, and hence are supposed to be reported to the security systems like CAPS II and such for tracking and tracing, and usually it will earn you an SSSS on your boarding card if not an outright denial of boarding, depending on the security level active at the time.



Yes, anyone wishing to purchase a plane ticket in cash is clearly a criminal and should be searched. 

Just like my luggage had to be searched because it was suspicious that I would want to travel from Chicago to Salt Lake City on the Zephyr. Land of the free and all


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## Devil's Advocate (May 22, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> No, rather that those paying cash, particularly for one-way flights, are suspected of being possible terrorists or drug runners or money launderers or doing something suspicious ala those carrying more than $10K in cash across the border and those making $10K+ deposits at banks.


You're missing the point. United Airlines does not care if you want to pay with cash. United Airlines only cares that your decision to pay with cash puts them in a position where they must flag your purchase and can be fined if they fail to report the details of every cash sale in a timely fashion. As a result United Airlines (and many others) now prevents you from paying with cash to avoid the liability altogether. The government's pretense that paying with cash equals terrorism, trafficking, and money laundering is exposed as nonsense by the fact that airports are allowed to sell you a piece of plastic that avoids extra scrutiny but nets a tidy profit for another previously unnecessary middleman.


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## jiml (May 22, 2021)

Governments, and banks to a lesser degree, would be very happy if cash went away everywhere. It's hard to tax, hard to count, hard to store, etc.


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## hlcteacher (May 22, 2021)

i will always prefer CASH..those "vanilla" cards do not work everywhere


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## lonewolfette9847 (May 22, 2021)

plane2train said:


> I don't see why in this day and age we can't go cashless. You can buy a Visa Vanilla card with cash and use it for transactions quite easily. You don't need a credit score to get one. However, there are many times when cash does come in handy: at bars so you can control how much you spend on booze (I've seen some huge bar bills), quick transactions at convenience stores and maybe the post office to buy stamps. The airlines have installed machines where you can buy a card to pay for a plane ticket, and I don't see why Amtrak couldn't do the same for those few that really want to pay cash for their $356 ticket.



From a banking standpoint, non-customers wouldn’t be able to cash checks. Also, there’s rural cities & towns that really aren’t in the 21st century yet. We’re getting there, but I don’t see an all cashless society any time soon. Still too much cash going in & out of banks.

I don’t mind not needing cash for everything, but sometimes I just don’t want to use a card, debit or credit. My shorter train jaunts usually require a bunch of one dollar bills & coinage.


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## joelkfla (May 22, 2021)

There's also the matter of gambling. The terms of most credit cards prohibit use of the cards for gambling.

I haven't been to a casino in years, but I do have to pay cash for my Bingo cards at local senior centers & fraternal organizations, and for lotto tickets at local markets.


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## me_little_me (May 22, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> You're missing the point. United Airlines does not care if you want to pay with cash. United Airlines only cares that your decision to pay with cash puts them in a position where they must flag your purchase and can be fined if they fail to report the details of every cash sale in a timely fashion. As a result United Airlines (and many others) now prevents you from paying with cash to avoid the liability altogether. The government's pretense that paying with cash equals terrorism, trafficking, and money laundering is exposed as nonsense by the fact that airports are allowed to sell you a piece of plastic that avoids extra scrutiny but nets a tidy profit for another previously unnecessary middleman.


I did not miss the point. I mentioned nothing about the airlines being responsible for that. You are correct in that it is the government and in fact it was mentioned by you in the quoted comment. I didn't mention that because I thought it was obvious from your quote. Businesses rarely care about who they get money from and how they get it but they know the government does. I also made no statement to the effect that I agreed with why it was done. I was only trying to explain that it's not just a law against cash per se but a rule that you are suspected of doing something because you pay cash. The 9/11 terrorists and/or others at other times, I believe, paid cash so you are suspected of criminal activity whether or not you are. Similarly, just carrying around large sums can get them seized.


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## plane2train (May 23, 2021)

bratkinson said:


> This past April, while aboard train #174 from WAS, the Wifi wasn't working. As a result, the cashless lounge car was 'out of business' for the duration. Only after numerous complaints and a new onboard crew at NYP, they FINALLY got it fixed about Stamford. Or, perhaps, they took my advice and simply converted their cellphone to a single user Wifi hot spot like I did to use my laptop.
> 
> I would anticipate the same lack/spotty of Wifi service found on western LD trains and the Capitol Ltd WAS-PGH will be a limitation of the 'cashless' craze aboard Amtrak.


I don’t see why they couldn’t run manual credit card slips as needed. These days, you’re just as helpless as you want to be it seems.


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## plane2train (May 23, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't see how my decision to pay with cash impacts you in any way whatsoever.
> 
> 
> This is apparently due to a law that forces US airlines to flag and report cash sales which does not apply to Amtrak.



But cash is a huge burden on employees; if you’re caught short one too many times, you can get disciplined or fired. The stuff is covered in germs and gets under and over counted way too easily. With credit cards, you just have to swipe the thing, and the system charges and collects the exact amount. Much cleaner and easier to deal with and with far less manpower. Airlines have always had to report large cash transactions, especially for international flights; getting rid of cash is just easier on employees and resources used to handle it.


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## caravanman (May 23, 2021)

While I am not one of those "conspiracy theory" folk, I do believe that organisations should just mind their own business... I think this may be behind some folks reluctance to give up cash?
Paying by card leaves an electronic trail of my whereabouts and activities. Not a massive issue, but one that paying cash avoids. (So long as I don't use my laptop, phone, etc, etc... )


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## Devil's Advocate (May 23, 2021)

plane2train said:


> But cash is a huge burden on employees; if you’re caught short one too many times, you can get disciplined or fired.


If elementary school math is a "huge burden" to a working age employee maybe they should stick with manual labor.



plane2train said:


> The stuff is covered in germs and gets under and over counted way too easily.


So don't use it then. That's your choice. It's only when you push to take my choices away that we have a problem.



plane2train said:


> With credit cards, you just have to swipe the thing, and the system charges and collects the exact amount. Much cleaner and easier to deal with and with far less manpower.


So swipe away and be happy your solution is available rather than push to take options away from others.


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## flitcraft (May 23, 2021)

caravanman said:


> Paying by card leaves an electronic trail of my whereabouts and activities. Not a massive issue, but one that paying cash avoids.


Which is why the first rule in Affairs 101 is always pay for hotel rooms in cash. (Not that I know from personal experience...  )


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## Barb Stout (May 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Cash purchase of tickets was supposed to be for untraceability, some thing that various nefarious folks pine for apparently, and hence are supposed to be reported to the security systems like CAPS II and such for tracking and tracing, and usually it will earn you an SSSS on your boarding card if not an outright denial of boarding, depending on the security level active at the time.


What does SSSS stand for? Something tells me it's not Staphylococcal scalded skin syndrome. I love acronyms and the fun they can engender!


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## jis (May 23, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> What does SSSS stand for? Something tells me it's not Staphylococcal scalded skin syndrome. I love acronyms and the fun they can engender!


You are given special exclusive attention, a personal massage and more at the Security checkpoint, including a hand search of your bag.


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## flitcraft (May 23, 2021)

It stands for Secondary Security Screening Selection, and it means your bags will be opened and everything in them closely examined and you will get an "enhanced" patdown of your person, which leaves nothing to the imagination of the pat-down performer. I got SSSS once when I had to buy a new ticket at the airport when my flight was cancelled and replaced with a flight the next morning. I opted to buy a ticket on a flight that would get me to my destination the same day on a different airline, and lo and behold! got the dreaded SSSS on my new boarding pass.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> It stands for Secondary Security Screening Selection, and it means your bags will be opened and everything in them closely examined and you will get an "enhanced" patdown of your person, which leaves nothing to the imagination of the pat-down performer. I got SSSS once when I had to buy a new ticket at the airport when my flight was cancelled and replaced with a flight the next morning. I opted to buy a ticket on a flight that would get me to my destination the same day on a different airline, and lo and behold! got the dreaded SSSS on my new boarding pass.



Does it make you feel safer?


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## jis (May 23, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> It stands for Secondary Security Screening Selection, and it means your bags will be opened and everything in them closely examined and you will get an "enhanced" patdown of your person, which leaves nothing to the imagination of the pat-down performer. I got SSSS once when I had to buy a new ticket at the airport when my flight was cancelled and replaced with a flight the next morning. I opted to buy a ticket on a flight that would get me to my destination the same day on a different airline, and lo and behold! got the dreaded SSSS on my new boarding pass.


Didn't you give the airline your Trusted Traveler Number? Or perhaps you did not have one?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If elementary school math is a "huge burden" to a working age employee maybe they should stick with manual labor.



When was the last time you worked as a cashier? It’s no fun being questioned by your boss as though you’re stealing when you come to find out you forgot to check if there were any $100’s under the coin tray that day. Working as a cashier in a cashless environment is way easier and less pressure for a large number of reasons.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Didn't you give the airline your Trusted Traveler Number? Or perhaps you did not have one?



I don’t have one. Does that mean my rights as a citizen of the USA traveling in my own country should be taken away? 

“Papers please” aren’t enough to travel by air. “Special papers please!” We are now ok with I guess?


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## flitcraft (May 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Didn't you give the airline your Trusted Traveler Number? Or perhaps you did not have one?


This was before Pre-check and Global Entry. Back when all animals really were equal. Now, some animals are more equal than others (and I'm now one of them!)


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## jis (May 23, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I don’t have one. Does that mean my rights as a citizen of the USA traveling in my own country should be taken away?
> 
> “Papers please” aren’t enough to travel by air. “Special papers please!” We are now ok with I guess?


It was accepted by an unduly scared nation after 9/11, among a lot of other stupid things that came about as a result. Unfortunately it appears to be a package deal 

I had to fly within a week of 9/11. Boy that was something ... way worse than an occasional SSSS, which one can avoid with a little planning. Immediately after 9/11 there was no avoiding.

Mind you not defending any of this. I just work things around over and under the system as best as I can. Having been brought up in an overly bureaucratized society makes one develop attitudes and techniques to work the system instead of getting ulcers about it all the time. Each to his or her own.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2021)

jis said:


> It was accepted by a unduly scared nation after 9/11, among a lot of other stupid things that came about as a result. Unfortunately it appears to be a package deal
> 
> I had to fly within a week of 9/11. Boy that was something ... way worse than an occasional SSSS, which one can avoid with a little planning. Immediately after 9/11 there was no avoiding.
> 
> Mind you not defending any of this. I just work things around over and under the system as best as I can. Having been brought up in an overly bureaucratized society makes one develop attitudes and techniques to work the system instead of getting ulcers about it all the time. Each to his or her own.



Oh I’m with you. I do everything I can to make it an easy experience for myself when traveling. I just don’t agree with it!


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## me_little_me (May 23, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If elementary school math is a "huge burden" to a working age employee maybe they should stick with manual labor.


It's not just that they made a mistake, unlike some people on this forum, but they may have been scammed, they may have been rushed, bills might have been stuck together, it might have been another employee skimming, even their register might have screwed up. But they get blamed and often shamed. even with an advanced degree in engineering, I have made mistakes in simple math - and more than once. I admire you for your better abilities.


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## Nick Farr (May 24, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> "Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor."



Just because it is *legal *tender does not mean it is *mandatory for the creditor to accept it* as payment. This has always been the case.

The same thing with "cash only" or "cashless" places. Once you place an order, or enter the premises you're bound by the rules set for by the offeror to pay as they would like you to pay.


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## Nick Farr (May 24, 2021)

neroden said:


> If you have already received the goods or services (so, you've incurred a debt), and did not specifically contract to pay in another form (gold, Bitcoin, Tesla stock, whatever), then you can offer to pay your debt in cash and they have to take it or forgive the debt.



Actually, no. There is no contract law that has been upheld at the Federal level saying that debts are forgiven automatically because the creditor refuses to take cash. (States and localities can do weird things that would probably get overriden in court.)

Tender is the presentation for acceptance. It means it is entirely legal to offer to pay in cash. *Tender has never meant compulsory acceptance.*

If the contract does not speak to the terms of payment, then it becomes a litigable issue. If a court/magistrate of sufficient jurisdiction feels it is unreasonable for the creditor to not accept cash, then they can nullify the contract but not the debt itself.


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## PVD (May 24, 2021)

Anyone who thinks Legal Tender Law means people have to accept cash is sadly mistaken. Go to the US Treasury webpages they will explain that what you think that section of the law means regarding any is not what it really is. Unless there is a local law to the contrary business are free to set payment terms, and you can agree to them or not use the service or complete the transaction. The only thing they can't do is not disclose in advance. Unless local law contradicts businesses are free to reject cash, reject coins, reject certain size bills, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere. It is a bit harsh in some cases, but it is reality.


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## Nick Farr (May 24, 2021)

neroden said:


> All of that was seriously disputed in court and much of it was thrown out in the lawsuits by the marijuana businesses (who did not have access to checks or cards or wire transfers). Result of the cases: Nope. The IRS has to accept cash payments without charging extra fees or creating extra hassle. The IRS figured out they were going to lose and backed off. The marijuana businesses show up and hand over their large piles of cash at a scheduled date at a specific location to the IRS person authorized to accept it. No daily processing fee. No maximum.



Do you have actual case law on this? Because I cannot find anything to back this up.


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## PVD (May 24, 2021)

The IRS is not a business. It can set reasonable parameters as to which centers accept cash, it is not across the board. The memo linked explains pmta01942_7439.pdf (irs.gov)

The gov't created their own mess by trying to trap banks who processed large cash transactions that were the proceeds of Federally illegal businesses by threatening civil asset forfeitures and penalties. So the dealers had limited access to banking... Both the banks and the dealers followed the great American tradition of giving the IRS the finger.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 24, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> When was the last time you worked as a cashier? It’s no fun being questioned by your boss as though you’re stealing when you come to find out you forgot to check if there were any $100’s under the coin tray that day. Working as a cashier in a cashless environment is way easier and less pressure for a large number of reasons.


I've worked multiple cashier jobs and the register does nearly all the thinking for you. In fact the position of cashier has been simplified over and over to the point where an automated kiosk can handle nearly everything that's left.



me_little_me said:


> It's not just that they made a mistake, unlike some people on this forum, but they may have been scammed, they may have been rushed, bills might have been stuck together, it might have been another employee skimming, even their register might have screwed up. But they get blamed and often shamed. even with an advanced degree in engineering, I have made mistakes in simple math - and more than once. I admire you for your better abilities.


So the problem was not that your boss was a jerk or that your skills were a poor match for working a register but that some businesses still allowed some customers to pay with cash? Therefore the fix was not for you to find another position that was a better match but to permanently restrict the payment options for everyone else on your behalf?


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## Asher (May 25, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> Which is why the first rule in Affairs 101 is always pay for hotel rooms in cash. (Not that I know from personal experience...  )


Long gone are the days when I’ve paid cash for a hotel room. I now like to book in advance, not easy to do with cash.


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## jis (May 25, 2021)

anumberone said:


> Long gone are the days when I’ve paid cash for a hotel room. I now like to book in advance, not easy to do with cash.


You could still pay in cash if you wish, or using some instrument other the one used for making the reservation though. The latter I have done many times, that is paid with a different credit card from the one that was used to guarantee the reservation.


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## Asher (May 25, 2021)

jis said:


> You could still pay in cash if you wish, or using some instrument other the one used for making the reservation though. The latter I have done many times, that is paid with a different credit card from the one that was used to guarantee the reservation.


Yes, I have sometimes cashed it out when checking out. In fact, if it wasn’t for booking on line, car rentals and Uber, I never would have got an AMEX. Now days though, like they say, don’t leave home with out it.


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## me_little_me (May 25, 2021)

PVD said:


> Anyone who thinks Legal Tender Law means people have to accept cash is sadly mistaken. Go to the US Treasury webpages they will explain that what you think that section of the law means regarding any is not what it really is. Unless there is a local law to the contrary business are free to set payment terms, and you can agree to them or not use the service or complete the transaction. The only thing they can't do is not disclose in advance. Unless local law contradicts businesses are free to reject cash, reject coins, reject certain size bills, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere. It is a bit harsh in some cases, but it is reality.


"The only thing they can't do is not disclose in advance." I agree with that but that's because there is no debt at that point and no contract. They must post that condition of contract. So if you call an Amtrak agent and agree to pay at the station, at that point there is a tentative reservation but no debt and not a contract of service. Then you walk into the agent and see the sign or are told "no cash", then, again, there is no debt and no contract and you are not obligated to pay for the reservation.

Same for any other business if the notice precedes the debt. But if there is no sign and you eat the food (incurring a debt), then the proprietor says "no cash", then your quote governs the rule - they must accept it. That differs from credit cards as there is no inherent obligation to accept them. On the other hand, if you walk in to a store pick up an item and bring it to the counter (and there has been no sign or notice) and try to pay cash and they refuse, they have not violated your quoted rule as there is no debt yet and no contract of acceptance. You are free to leave without the item and without paying another way.

Edit:fix typo


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## neroden (May 26, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Actually, no.


Actually, yes.



> There is no contract law that has been upheld at the Federal level saying that debts are forgiven automatically because the creditor refuses to take cash.



Contract law is almost entirely state law. But in all 50 states, and for debts governed by federal law because they are not in any state or are related to the federal government directly, what I said is correct. 



> Tender is the presentation for acceptance. It means it is entirely legal to offer to pay in cash. *Tender has never meant compulsory acceptance.*



*Yes, it does mean compulsory acceptance, or in the alternative, forgiveness of debt. That's what it means.*

A legal tender in payment of the debt means an offer which is considered to satisfy the debt. If the creditor refuses such an offer, they are ipso facto forgiving the debt.

Look, I actually reviewed the law on this a while back; there were a series of late-19th/early-20th century short stories written by a lawyer with *legal citation footnotes*. I read the one about legal tender -- it's called "Legal Tender". I went through the citations because I was curious and so I effectively did the paralegal research. I checked: the caselaw hasn't changed. I have the legal tender law correct. This was confirmed in the marijuana cases recently.

As I said, it only applies to *debts* (a strong limitation) -- and only if the contract has not previously specified another form of payment, so that it simply amounts to a debt in "dollars", not otherwise specified. (This is the case with many but not all implied contracts.) You'd be surprised how rarely your transactions incur debt, and how much rarer it is for that to happen without specifying payment type; sit-down restaurants which have not posted a sign regarding acceptable forms of payment are one of the few common exceptions. me_little_me also understands this law, and you, Mr. Farr, do not.


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## neroden (May 26, 2021)

IRS deal will refund fines to Denver pot shop that pays taxes in cash


IRS deal will refund fines to Denver pot shop that pays taxes in cash




www.denverpost.com





In 2015, IRS backed off before losing the case in court. They knew they were going to lose.









Cannabis companies are paying federal taxes in cash and it’s giving the IRS a headache


Handling cash is a hassle for everyone, but the government doesn't give pot businesses a choice.




qz.com





If you want the actual caselaw on legal tender, it's mostly from the 19th century, when the situation with money was very complicated.

One of the interesting points which has come up is that it is legal for the IRS to provide a limited, but reasonable, number of times and places to make your cash payment of taxes. It is not legal to limit the quantity of cash accepted, or to fine or penalize people for paying tax in cash.

If I dug harder, I would be able to find the news articles which I read while the cases were ongoing about the arguments filed in court in the marijuana tax payments cases, before the IRS surrendered -- or if I went to the library with LexisNexis I would start looking for the actual court filings again -- but they're somewhat hard to find with Google now, since it has a recency bias. I'm not going to spend the time on that right now, but you can if you want to.


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## neroden (May 26, 2021)

IRS goes green: Hashing out payments from the marijuana industry


Technology may play a central role in helping the tax man get his due from cannabis companies.




www.accountingtoday.com





Here's a statement from an accountant -- this is not controversial: "*while the IRS is mandated to take tax payments in any form of legal tender,* the high volume of cash coming in from taxed cannabis sales has proven difficult for the agency to handle."


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## Nick Farr (May 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> Contract law is almost entirely state law.



The usage of Federal currency is Federal law.



neroden said:


> *Yes, it does mean compulsory acceptance, or in the alternative, forgiveness of debt. That's what it means.*











tender







www.law.cornell.edu





"To present to another person an unconditional offer to enter into a contract; a request for bids. 2) To present payment to another."

*Can you actually cite a legal definition where tender mandates acceptance?*



neroden said:


> Look, I actually reviewed the law on this a while back; there were a series of late-19th/early-20th century short stories written by a lawyer with *legal citation footnotes*. I read the one about legal tender -- it's called "Legal Tender". I went through the citations because I was curious and so I effectively did the paralegal research. I checked: the caselaw hasn't changed. I have the legal tender law correct. This was confirmed in the marijuana cases recently.



Great, can you actually provide the citation?

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 says all U.S. money is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. Nowhere in USC 5013 or contract law does it say that debts are automatically rendered invalid for failure to accept cash.






The Fed - Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?


The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.



www.federalreserve.gov









Is it Legal to Refuse Cash Payment | ExpertLaw


With U.S. paper money imprinted with the declaration, "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private", when can a business or government office refuse to accept cash payments.




www.expertlaw.com





In modern practice, for security and many other reasons, in the 21st century anyone can refuse to accept paper cash even if they entered into a contract where the payment method was not stated. The Federal Reserve is very clear on this.

Of course, States can do as they please. However, absent a state law to the contrary, failure to accept cash tendered never nullifies a contract or a debt, even the implied contract at a sit down restaurant.

Please actually provide any citation backing up anything you've said.


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## neroden (May 28, 2021)

I'm not going to continue to argue with you unless you pay me for paralegal work. I'm right, you're wrong, I CAN dig up the citations, but I'm not here to do the paralegal work you're unwilling to do when you're in denial about the facts.

Failure to accept cash tendered under reasonable conditions, represents forgiveness of the debt.

Making a valid, legal tender offer for payment of debt and having the offer refused is forgiveness of the debt; this law is older than the United States. I realize you know *absolutely nothing* about US law, but please don't act like you do.


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## neroden (May 28, 2021)

If you want to understand why your incorrect legal theory is so ridiculous that nobody takes it seriously, please note that if your theory was correct, your bank could refuse to accept your mortgage payment (done specified according to contract, or as a legal tender) and then claim that you had defaulted on the mortgage and try to foreclose. *That's not how it works*.

But crooked lenders *used to try to do that*.

The entirety of "tender in satisfaction of debt" law is about what the creditor *has to accept* -- it was developed hundreds of years ago in reaction to creditors who were trying to manufacture defaults dishonestly, and that's the entire line of cases.

There's actually a general principle that if the creditor refuses a valid, contract-compliant offer to pay what the debtor owes, the creditor is forgiving the debt; this is done to prevent former abuses by abusive creditors who were trying to manufacture defaults from people who were trying to pay their debts and had the money to do so. The courts frown on that. (THIS has come up during the robo-foreclosure cases in the years surrounding 2008; people have proven that their mortgage lender was refusing valid payments -- in those cases often checks and wire transfers, which were specified as valid by the lender -- and that proves that the payment was forgiven.) The legal tender laws are merely a special case.


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## MIrailfan (May 31, 2021)

This thread has taken an interesting turn.


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## plane2train (Jun 2, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If elementary school math is a "huge burden" to a working age employee maybe they should stick with manual labor.
> 
> 
> So don't use it then. That's your choice. It's only when you push to take my choices away that we have a problem.
> ...



It does not sound like you've handled cash or checks before as a transportation employee. Cash management has nothing to do with arithmetic and everything with human inaccuracy. Humans in general mess up on a regular basis and lose things. They also steal things, and cash is easy to pick up and carry off. I'm not saying you can't use cash personally, but what I am saying is that companies like Amtrak have it in their interest to steer customers to plastic only to avoid paying for the manpower to handle cash and its associated problems.


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## CTANut (Jul 28, 2021)

I had an Amish guy give me $3 in cash to get a Coke for him. You can always ask another passenger to use their card and give said passenger cash. There is also a machine in CHI that will give you a prepaid card in exchange for cash. It does not charge a fee.


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## hlcteacher (Jul 28, 2021)

CTANut said:


> I had an Amish guy give me $3 in cash to get a Coke for him. You can always ask another passenger to use their card and give said passenger cash. There is also a machine in CHI that will give you a prepaid card in exchange for cash. It does not charge a fee.


will this card be accepted by amtrack on trains? all prepaids are not accepted by everyone.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 28, 2021)

hlcteacher said:


> will this card be accepted by amtrack on trains? all prepaids are not accepted by everyone.


If it’s in CHI - and probably near the ticket counter, I imagine it will be accepted by Amtrak. I saw one around the corner in the room where the ticket counters were at the Moynihan Train Hall.


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## hlcteacher (Jul 28, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> If it’s in CHI - and probably near the ticket counter, I imagine it will be accepted by Amtrak. I saw one around the corner in the room where the ticket counters were at the Moynihan Train Hall.


thank you


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## Anderson (Jul 28, 2021)

plane2train said:


> I don’t see why they couldn’t run manual credit card slips as needed. These days, you’re just as helpless as you want to be it seems.


The issue is that a bunch of the dingbats (that's the _polite term_ in my book here) at the credit card companies decided that we all wanted these shiny smooth-sided cards that won't imprint. Much as with e-tickets, I do not wish good upon whomever decided this was a good idea since it mostly eliminated this option (and was a PITA on VIA for a while...the _Canadian_ has long stretches without a decent cell signal, so they'd run an imprint slip every day or so in the bar).


jis said:


> It was accepted by an unduly scared nation after 9/11, among a lot of other stupid things that came about as a result. Unfortunately it appears to be a package deal
> 
> I had to fly within a week of 9/11. Boy that was something ... way worse than an occasional SSSS, which one can avoid with a little planning. Immediately after 9/11 there was no avoiding.
> 
> Mind you not defending any of this. I just work things around over and under the system as best as I can. Having been brought up in an overly bureaucratized society makes one develop attitudes and techniques to work the system instead of getting ulcers about it all the time. Each to his or her own.


All I'm going to say is that there's a reason I hold the TSA as generally being beneath contempt and I'd like to see someone replace "Your safety is our priority" with "Our paycheck is our priority"...


neroden said:


> IRS goes green: Hashing out payments from the marijuana industry
> 
> 
> Technology may play a central role in helping the tax man get his due from cannabis companies.
> ...


And now we get down to a fun point: Is Amtrak a government entity or a private corporation? (This isn't cheeky...being a corporation that is in effect 100% government-owned has made for some interesting case law fights.)


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 28, 2021)

hlcteacher said:


> will this card be accepted by amtrack on trains? all prepaids are not accepted by everyone.



I’ve been on Amtrak trains where prepaid cards and gift cards were not taken by lsa’s. Not sure if that’s a company policy or individual lsa policy.


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## PVD (Jul 28, 2021)

It depends what kind. As an example, Amtrak gift cards are not valid for use onboard. It says that clearly on the site. If the machine is out, that could be a problem on a prepaid or gift card This is what it used to say, but I haven't looked recently :

Gift cards and other prepaid cards with a credit card logo: These are accepted only when the transaction can be electronically validated: at station ticket offices, at Quik-Trak kiosks, at Amtrak.com, by phone at 1-800-USA-RAIL, and on trains for payment of fares and food purchases when the conductor or food services attendant has an operating credit card validation device. Refunds are made back to the gift card, so be sure not to dispose of it once you have used up its value until you are certain that you will not return anything that you have paid with it.


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## MIrailfan (Jul 30, 2021)

Chicago Union Station has reverse ATMS that accept cash for prepaid cards that can be used to buy tickets. Its still cashless there. Concessions and gift shop accept cash.


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## OBS (Jul 30, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve been on Amtrak trains where prepaid cards and gift cards were not taken by lsa’s. Not sure if that’s a company policy or individual lsa policy.


Company policy


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## Nick Farr (Aug 2, 2021)

Anderson said:


> And now we get down to a fun point: Is Amtrak a government entity or a private corporation? (This isn't cheeky...being a corporation that is in effect 100% government-owned has made for some interesting case law fights.)



Never forget that Amtrak was a Federal bailout to the railroad industry.

Amtrak is not government owned. It's a regular non-governmental corporation that has a huge and growing accumulated deficit. The common stock that was issued to the legacy railroads still exists, but is effectively worthless. Those shareholders do retain the right to amend Amtrak's articles.

That being said, Amtrak is controlled by the Federal Government. Its Board of Directors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. I don't think they serve at the pleasure of the executive, so as far as case law goes, Amtrak is in a class of entity by itself.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 2, 2021)

Anderson said:


> The issue is that a bunch of the dingbats (that's the _polite term_ in my book here) at the credit card companies decided that we all wanted these shiny smooth-sided cards that won't imprint.



For Visa/MC this was by design to try to force vendors to pre-authorize and cut down on bad debts.

I believe certain AMEX cards retain this feature.


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## WWW (Aug 2, 2021)

The latest the CC companies just want you to wave the card in front of the reader - and away go the funds in your account.
Take care that your card is not waving in front of one of those readers while someone else is making a purchase best have
it in a RFID wallet till used - so your wallet is in your hind hip - butt out of making unauthorized purchases LOL !

So the handling of filthy lira is not to be done for Amtrak tickets - concession - purchases - but there is NO reason not to
have one of those hand held CC scanners - even amateur merchants at state fairs farmers market flea markets have them
Come-on Amtrak get out of the days of Wells Fargo and stagecoach transactions !


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## Anderson (Aug 5, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Never forget that Amtrak was a Federal bailout to the railroad industry.
> 
> Amtrak is not government owned. It's a regular non-governmental corporation that has a huge and growing accumulated deficit. The common stock that was issued to the legacy railroads still exists, but is effectively worthless. Those shareholders do retain the right to amend Amtrak's articles.
> 
> That being said, Amtrak is controlled by the Federal Government. Its Board of Directors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. I don't think they serve at the pleasure of the executive, so as far as case law goes, Amtrak is in a class of entity by itself.


Like I said, it's made for some interesting case law. The question of whether Amtrak is a government entity is (as you indicated) complicated by a difference in nominal ownership (Amtrak has issued a large amount of preferred stock to the federal government as well...IIRC if you take the combined par value of the common stock and the preferred stock, the federal government has like 98% of the total) and effective control (if the "owners" tried to change the articles, I believe that the Feds could forcibly swap over the structure in some fashion, and as you indicated the BoD is made up of Federal appointees).

In this respect, the closest analogy is _probably_ that Amtrak is similar to a corporation that is in bankruptcy and has had the board of directors taken over by a creditor's committee (in this case, Congress). Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are, IIRC, similar beasts in some respect.


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## jebr (Aug 5, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> For Visa/MC this was by design to try to force vendors to pre-authorize and cut down on bad debts.



This doesn't seem to be universal - I have multiple debit cards on the Visa network which still have raised numbers (one issued within the last month and another within the last year) and at least a couple of my Chase cards issued within the last year also have the raised numbers.

That said, I remember that Square at least used to have an option where you could process transactions up to a certain amount offline and it'd run them next time you're online. I think the new Amtrak POS systems have this ability as well, though it takes some time for the system to realize that it's offline and to run the card that way.



OBS said:


> Company policy



While I understand the rationale from Amtrak's perspective, I think it's a bad move particularly when Amtrak is running a cashless operation. At minimum, prepaid/gift cards should be allowed when there's a network connection (which should at least be available at/near most station stops) and validation can be done immediately. Bank-issued debit cards aren't universal (typically requiring the ability to pass a ChexSystems check) and credit cards aren't any better. If I had purchased a prepaid card from the machine at an Amtrak station and it didn't work at all on board, I'd be pretty peeved (particularly if it was a longer trip where I needed to purchase some food along the way.)


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## OBS (Aug 5, 2021)

jebr said:


> This doesn't seem to be universal - I have multiple debit cards on the Visa network which still have raised numbers (one issued within the last month and another within the last year) and at least a couple of my Chase cards issued within the last year also have the raised numbers.
> 
> That said, I remember that Square at least used to have an option where you could process transactions up to a certain amount offline and it'd run them next time you're online. I think the new Amtrak POS systems have this ability as well, though it takes some time for the system to realize that it's offline and to run the card that way.
> 
> ...


Despite the "company policy" I would sometimes offer to "try" a prepaid/gift card, if my CC machine was showing a strong signal (if it couldn't get thru to process it the machine would ask if I want to store the charge for later and I would say "No" and refuse the card). However, my experience shows a lot of these people have no idea if any credit is available, the charge for $10 won't go thru (declined) so then the patron wants me to try $5.00 and see if that will go thru, etc. It just becomes more trouble than it is worth...


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## TheVig (Aug 5, 2021)

I'm greatful I don't have to bother with gift card shenanigans. As far as using my bank debit cards with a Visa or MC logo, I never use those for day to day purchases either. I like to minimize direct exposure to my cash liquidity in my bank accounts. I'd rather fight a fraudulent purchase issue on a traditional credit card, then something directly tied to my bank accounts.

I use traditional credit cards for all my spend, including Amtrak onboard purchases, and have never had an issue regardless if they've had a signal or not on their POS terminals.

To each their own.


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## jis (Aug 5, 2021)

TheVig said:


> I'm grateful I don't have to bother with gift card shenanigans. As far as using my bank debit cards with a Visa or MC logo, I never use those for day to day purchases either. I like to minimize direct exposure to my cash liquidity in my bank accounts. I'd rather fight a fraudulent purchase issue on a traditional credit card, then something directly tied to my bank accounts.
> 
> I use traditional credit cards for all my spend, including Amtrak onboard purchases, and have never had an issue regardless if they've had a signal or not on their POS terminals.
> 
> To each their own.


Likewise. The only place where I use my bank debit card is at a bank ATM to withdraw cash. Otherwise it stays under lock and key.

All my day to day spend happens on credit cards, and I have never had any problem on board a train or a plane. Specially, given the discounts that one gets on trains and planes for on board purchases if done using the appropriate affinity credit card, it seems kind of silly not to avail of that. Net net my annual fee is always completely paid for and then some.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 9, 2021)

jebr said:


> This doesn't seem to be universal - I have multiple debit cards on the Visa network which still have raised numbers (one issued within the last month and another within the last year) and at least a couple of my Chase cards issued within the last year also have the raised numbers.



I've seen recently issued Visa/MCs without the EMV chips on them. Nothing is universal, even if they say it is. The raised numbers issue comes down to many different factors, most of which involve the network's need for security over the bank's need for marketing points. 



jebr said:


> That said, I remember that Square at least used to have an option where you could process transactions up to a certain amount offline and it'd run them next time you're online. I think the new Amtrak POS systems have this ability as well, though it takes some time for the system to realize that it's offline and to run the card that way.



Almost all the EMV capable POS systems have this capability, though sometimes the vendor or their bank will need to enable it specifically.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 9, 2021)

Anderson said:


> The question of whether Amtrak is a government entity is (as you indicated) complicated by a difference in nominal ownership (Amtrak has issued a large amount of preferred stock to the federal government as well...



The closest analogy is not actually Fannie or Freddie, it's the US Postal Service.

Amtrak is not a government entity at all, it's a government-subsidized private entity. You bring claims against it like you would a normal entity, it's not subject to the Federal Tort Claims Act, and it's free in and of itself to lobby Congress as it sees fit like any other private entity.

The preferred stock to the government is basically an implicit guarantee that if Amtrak ever does make a profit, that profit goes back to the US Treasury.


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## CTANut (Sep 7, 2021)

Does the cafe/dining car accept apple pay? I noticed the cafe car had a new reader that worked with a contactless card. Also, why does the cafe/diner not accept Amtrak gift cards? It seems that the ticket offices manage to do it with their POS readers, so why can't the cafe do it. I have seen Subways at truck stops that use the truck stop POS system, but they still have a separate reader for the gift cards.


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## jis (Sep 7, 2021)

I suspect that Gift Cards like Debit Cards cannot be used in places where there may be deferred authorization involved, like in a mobile cafe/diner which maybe outside wireless network range for extended periods.


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## dwebarts (Sep 8, 2021)

CTANut said:


> Does the cafe/dining car accept apple pay? I noticed the cafe car had a new reader that worked with a contactless card. Also, why does the cafe/diner not accept Amtrak gift cards? It seems that the ticket offices manage to do it with their POS readers, so why can't the cafe do it. I have seen Subways at truck stops that use the truck stop POS system, but they still have a separate reader for the gift cards.


I've used Apple Pay in the Cafe Car (NEC) several times without issue. Jis is likely right for the gift card situation.


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## Triley (Sep 9, 2021)

CTANut said:


> Does the cafe/dining car accept apple pay? I noticed the cafe car had a new reader that worked with a contactless card. Also, why does the cafe/diner not accept Amtrak gift cards? It seems that the ticket offices manage to do it with their POS readers, so why can't the cafe do it. I have seen Subways at truck stops that use the truck stop POS system, but they still have a separate reader for the gift cards.



Yes, IF the train is equipped with the new POS, we may take contactless payment, including Apple Pay. However, not all trains have had the POS rolled out yet, so I would recommend that folks come prepared with a physical card on hand, for the time being.


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