# Paris - Berlin direct HSR service



## jis (Jun 2, 2022)

Direct HSR service connecting Paris with Berlin, to be operated with ICE and TGV equipment coming next year (2023)

The distance is similar to Boston to Richmond. It won't be exactly Chinese style HSR. It will clock in at 7 hours suggesting there will be some significant running on upgraded classic tracks somewhere enroute...









A New High-Speed Train Between Berlin and Paris Is Coming Next Year


Willkommen, Bienvenu, Welcome: You’ll soon be able to travel smoothly from one city to the other in just seven hours.




robbreport.com


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## jiml (Jun 2, 2022)

It's not an earth-shattering development since a same-day trip only slightly longer was possible with a connection, however the news is a French TGV running that far into Germany. (DB already served Paris.) Thanks for sharing.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 2, 2022)

jiml said:


> It's not an earth-shattering development since a same-day trip only slightly longer was possible with a connection, however *the news is a French TGV running that far into Germany*. (DB already served Paris.) Thanks for sharing.


I took a _French_ TGV to a _German_ Munich back in the mid-2010's but I guess it's about 100mi more.


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## jiml (Jun 2, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I took a _French_ TGV to a _German_ Munich back in the mid-2010's but I guess it's about 100mi more.


I was just going with the current schedule, which may have been reduced due to Covid. There were a couple of mid-points, such as Frankfurt and Karlsruhe, where TGVs run regularly but I didn't see much further. Still AFAIK Berlin will be a first.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jun 5, 2022)

Must be nice.


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## cirdan (Jun 13, 2022)

jis said:


> Direct HSR service connecting Paris with Berlin, to be operated with ICE and TGV equipment coming next year (2023)
> 
> The distance is similar to Boston to Richmond. It won't be exactly Chinese style HSR. It will clock in at 7 hours suggesting there will be some significant running on upgraded classic tracks somewhere enroute...
> 
> ...



On the French side there is a high-speed route that runs almost all the way to the German border. 

But on the German side this isn't really so and there isn't really an obvious "as the crow flies" direct rail route. Instead a train would zig-zag using various other lines, some of them HSR, some conventional, taking in various major and some lesser cities en route.

This is largely because Germany and France have fundamentally different geographies. In France, Paris is the main city and the number two and number three cities are some way behind. So it is natural that the bulk of investment goes into getting people from all corners of the country into and out of Paris as efficiently as possible. Links between secondary cities exist as well of course, but these are very much second fiddle.

In Germany, Berlin is not the most important city by a long stretch, and if you look at the list of Germany's main cities, you have a list of quite a few cities that are more or less equal, each one of which deserves to be connected to the others as well as possible. So Germany's rail topography is much more complex and the planners need to balance all the interests rather than creating massive here to there superlinks. This is compounded by Germany having a federal system politically, in which individual regions have the means to bring in their interests and wishes and influence policy accordingly.


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## slasher-fun (Jun 13, 2022)

jiml said:


> I was just going with the current schedule, which may have been reduced due to Covid. There were a couple of mid-points, such as Frankfurt and Karlsruhe, where TGVs run regularly but I didn't see much further. Still AFAIK Berlin will be a first.


There's a daily TGV service between Paris and Munich 



jis said:


> Direct HSR service connecting Paris with Berlin, to be operated with ICE and TGV equipment coming next year (2023)


Should be ICE trainsets all the way though (BR 407 are being equiped with ETCS 2, which is required on the Erfurt-Halle line)



cirdan said:


> This is largely because Germany and France have fundamentally different geographies. In France, Paris is the main city and the number two and number three cities are some way behind. So it is natural that the bulk of investment goes into getting people from all corners of the country into and out of Paris as efficiently as possible. Links between secondary cities exist as well of course, but these are very much second fiddle.


But's that's a stupid decision from France, because unlike airplanes, trains can stop en-route with a "time cost" of only a few minutes: if you pick two cities in Germany, you have an hourly or two-hourly train service with at most 2 transfers, if you pick two cities in France... "wish you luck".


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jun 14, 2022)

cirdan said:


> In Germany, Berlin is not the most important city by a long stretch, and if you look at the list of Germany's main cities, you have a list of quite a few cities that are more or less equal, each one of which deserves to be connected to the others as well as possible. So Germany's rail topography is much more complex and the planners need to balance all the interests rather than creating massive here to there superlinks. This is compounded by Germany having a federal system politically, in which individual regions have the means to bring in their interests and wishes and influence policy accordingly.


Germany unlike France also suffered 40-ish years of being divided into 2 separate countries East and West which totally changed the topography of the rail system, then reunification changed everything again, with now the added need of bringing the East up to the level of the West, as well as tying Berlin back in as the capital etc. They have done pretty well considering the challenges they have had.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jun 14, 2022)

I have to travel from Stuttgart to Paris this August. I saw that there is an ICE running that route already. Was hoping to try a TGV instead, as they always seem to elude me. 

Yet again, situations like these show me that we ought to be grateful for the Acela/Regionals. In terms of speed and distances, the NEC is really not all that bad.


cirdan said:


> In Germany, Berlin is not the most important city by a long stretch, and if you look at the list of Germany's main cities, you have a list of quite a few cities that are more or less equal, each one of which deserves to be connected to the others as well as possible. So Germany's rail topography is much more complex and the planners need to balance all the interests rather than creating massive here to there superlinks. This is compounded by Germany having a federal system politically, in which individual regions have the means to bring in their interests and wishes and influence policy accordingly.


To illustrate this, I've been to Germany probably a dozen times, visiting Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Horb, Nagold, etc, but I've never been to Berlin, as the music never takes me there (despite Berlin having the greatest orchestra in the world).


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## daybeers (Jun 14, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I've never been to Berlin, as the music never takes me there (despite Berlin having the greatest orchestra in the world).


I'd highly recommend visiting Berlin. Fantastic city with world-class transit, arts, culture, history, and cuisine.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jun 14, 2022)

daybeers said:


> I'd highly recommend visiting Berlin. Fantastic city with world-class transit, arts, culture, history, and cuisine.


Yes, I’ve gathered as much


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## Urban Sky (Jun 15, 2022)

slasher-fun said:


> Should be ICE trainsets all the way though (BR 407 are being equiped with ETCS 2, which is required on the Erfurt-Halle line)


Indeed, the (inofficial) timetable preview at Fernbahn.de shows these trains as ICE 9558 and ICE 9561, which obviously makes more sense than training maintenance staff at Berlin-Rummelsburg to deal with a TGV…

Below the (tentative) timings:





Given that Frankfurt-Paris operates with a headway of 120 minutes throughout the day, this suggests that neither train stays overnight in Paris (which, again, points at ICE over TGV):

Day 1: Frankfurt (d. 08:59) - Paris (a. 12:52, d. 15:10) - Berlin (a. 23:09)
Day 2: Berlin (d. 06:49) - Paris (a. 14:52, d. 17:10) - Frankfurt (a. 20:58)


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## cirdan (Jun 15, 2022)

look like a very early start from Berlin, especially for those needing to come into Berlin first from outlying locations.


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## cirdan (Jun 15, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> To illustrate this, I've been to Germany probably a dozen times, visiting Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Horb, Nagold, etc, but I've never been to Berlin, as the music never takes me there (despite Berlin having the greatest orchestra in the world).



If you are interested in classical music, you should definitely visit the former East Germany, where you can trace the footsteps of many of the great composers including Bach. Maybe as a result of not having had the money to ruthlessly modernize everything, but also maybe thanks to having escaped some of the worst of the bombardments, there is a lot more genuine untouched history in the east, including cathedrals, castles etc. And also a more laid back lifestyle (outside of the cities that is).

In Dresden, many of the buildings destroyed in the bombings have been restored, in some cases from just piles of rubble, and returned to their former glory. It is well worth seeing if you are interested in German baroque. I visited it both before and after the restoration and the difference is dumbfounding. If you go out into some of the smaller towns such as Naumburg, you can find a genuinely untouched city core and cathedral. Local legend has it that the American commander in charge of bombing Naumburg in WW2 had ancestors from there and was aware of the immense cultural value and intentionally bungled all the targets. For example I believe that several of the great composers played on the organ that is still in use today. That's an amazing level of connection to history.


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## Urban Sky (Jun 15, 2022)

cirdan said:


> look like a very early start from Berlin, especially for those needing to come into Berlin first from outlying locations.


I suspect that a trade-off had to be made between allowing connections beyond Berlin or beyond Paris and given that there are no major cities 1 or 2 hours beyond Berlin, I assume that this is the right call, whereas a 16:52 arrival into Paris would mean you couldn’t reach any connecting train at Gare de Lyon or Gare Montparnasse before 6pm…


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## slasher-fun (Jun 16, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I have to travel from Stuttgart to Paris this August. I saw that there is an ICE running that route already. Was hoping to try a TGV instead, as they always seem to elude me.


Both trains are operated on this route (9572/9574 with ICE, 9570/9576/9578 with TGV)


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