# Old Southern Crescent Consist Question



## Shotgun7 (Aug 27, 2008)

I saw this: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=248480&nseq=0 picture on railpics and was wandering just what kind of train the S Crecent was considered (LD or corridor). I can't tell what kind of car is on the end, but the rest of the consist looks like 7 Amfleet I coaches and 2 Amfleet I cafes. Since I was born around the time consists on most single level LD trains had switched to something similar to how they are now, this just kind of shocks me.


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## Montanan (Aug 27, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> I saw this: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=248480&nseq=0 picture on railpics and was wandering just what kind of train the S Crecent was considered (LD or corridor). I can't tell what kind of car is on the end, but the rest of the consist looks like 7 Amfleet I coaches and 2 Amfleet I cafes. Since I was born around the time consists on most single level LD trains had switched to something similar to how they are now, this just kind of shocks me.


The photo is pretty clearly miscaptioned. First off, the Southern Crescent was discontinued in February 1979, when the Southern Railway finally joined Amtrak. When Amtrak assumed operation of the train, the word Southern was removed from the train's name, and it became the "Crescent."

More importantly, though, the northern terminus of the Southern Crescent was Washington DC, though I believe through cars continued to New York on an Amtrak train. AFAIK, the Amtrak Crescent has also always had New York as its northern terminus ... so a train named the Southern Crescent wouldn't have been operating in Massachusetts.

So I suspect this train is simply a regular Amtrak northeast corridor train, though it may have served as a connection to the Crescent. It's even possible, I suppose, that there was a through sleeper to Boston operated for a time, since the last car in that photo appears to be of pre-Amtrak vintage. But this train definitely isn't the Southern Crescent.


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## the_traveler (Aug 27, 2008)

Although the caption states the Crescent, the location says "*Attleboro, MA*". The location of Attleboro is between Boston and Providence! That picture is of a NEC (to be Regional - not yet called that) train!


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## 1AA4FA (Aug 27, 2008)

Montanan said:


> Shotgun7 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw this: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=248480&nseq=0 picture on railpics and was wandering just what kind of train the S Crecent was considered (LD or corridor). I can't tell what kind of car is on the end, but the rest of the consist looks like 7 Amfleet I coaches and 2 Amfleet I cafes. Since I was born around the time consists on most single level LD trains had switched to something similar to how they are now, this just kind of shocks me.
> ...


The Cresent did serve Boston for a short period under in the early years (around 72) under joint Southern/AMTRAK service . Amtrak from Washington to Boston.

Mit


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## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 27, 2008)

Now I'm curious. What would the typical consist of the *Southern Crescent *been just before it joined Amtrak?


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## Montanan (Aug 27, 2008)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Now I'm curious. What would the typical consist of the *Southern Crescent *been just before it joined Amtrak?


I have a Southern Railway timetable from April 30, 1978, and it lists the following:

Coach Washington-New Orleans

Coach Washington-Atlanta

Coach New York-Atlanta

Coach New York-New Orleans

Sleeper New York-Los Angeles

Sleeper Washington-Atlanta

Sleeper Washington-Atlanta

Sleeper New York-Atlanta

Sleeper New York-New Orleans

Diner Washington-Atlanta

Diner Atlanta-New Orleans

Lounge Washington-Atlanta

Dome Atlanta-New Orleans

As you probably know, the train ran daily north of Atlanta, and tri-weekly south of there, so the New Orleans cars only operated three days a week.

The coaches were all 52-seat affairs. Each sleeper had 10 roomettes and 6 double bedrooms, save for one of the Washington-Atlanta cars, which had a drawing room, the famous Master room, and a buffet-lounge. The through Los Angeles sleeper had an overnight layover in New Orleans before continuing west on the Sunset. I'm pretty sure the dome was a coach, though that's not specified in the TT.

One heck of a train, without a doubt -- today's Crescent pales in comparison. How I would have loved to have had the chance to book that master room!


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## Montanan (Aug 27, 2008)

OK, I just have to add the following -- it's the verbatum description from the timetable of the Southern Crescent's Master Room:

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*ONE OF A KIND!*

*LUXURY FOR TWO!!*

*COMFORT FOR THREE!!!*
​

*The Southern Crescent* offers a Master Room accommodation daily in each direction between Washington and Atlanta, the only premium accommodation of this type in regular service on any passenger train in America -- _*in the world!*_ Generous room space and deluxe annex facilities, including a shower bath, are offered along with a sofa and two chairs for lounging. Two lower berths and one upper are available for bedtime and demand description as the ultimate in luxurious sleeping car travel for two and complete comfort for a family of three, or even four. And you are always next door to the popular lounge. The Master Room is truly unique, so make travel plans early and call for reservations soon!

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Try to top that, Amtrak!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 28, 2008)

Montanan said:


> OK, I just have to add the following -- it's the verbatum description from the timetable of the Southern Crescent's Master Room:
> ----------
> 
> *ONE OF A KIND!*
> ...


This much attention to one shower in one room on one train is the point I try to make when showers on the train periodically creeps up. That is one of the things which is much better under Amtrak than under the private railraods,i.e. the prevalence of showers.

They were indeed very rare years ago . Probably just eight or ten trains around the whole country had one. And most of them were not "public" but rather were in one room in one car on one train.

The various remarks about how the equipment on this train changed through the years--nothng unusual about that. Almost any train on the Amtrak system now operating which formerly operated on the private railroads made many,many changes of equipment through the years. Such pre-Amtrak trains were almost never a solid line of identical changless cars(though some were when first ut into service) . All the different end points, all the adding and dropping of cars en route, all very routine.

The sleeper-lounge car with the master room, noted above, used to operate from New York to New Orleans but various needs, and lessening ridership, eventually took its toll..

,cutting it back from WAS to ATL


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 28, 2008)

The dome car on the Southern Crescent for a while was a parlor car which was originally built by Pullman Standard for the Wabash's Railroad's Chicago to St. Louis Bluebird. The Southern bought the dome parlor car and a dome coach from the Norfolk and Western in the late 1960s. The parlor car was originally operated for a while on Central of Georgia's Nancy Hanks II from Atlanta to Savannah and then transferred to the Southern Crescent. The dome coach operated on the Nancy Hanks II until April 30, 1971 when the train was discontinued on the eve of Amtrak. Southern then transferred the dome coach to the Asheville Special which continued to operate as a Southern train between Salisbury and Asheville. The Asheville Special connected to and from Southern's Piedmont Ltd at Salisbury. The Asheville Special was discontinued in the mid 70s and Amtrak may have transferred the dome coach to the Southern Crescent at that time. I road the Southern Crescent from Atlanta to Birmigham in September, 1975 and its still carried the dome parlor car.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 28, 2008)

jphjaxfl said:


> The dome car on the Southern Crescent for a while was a parlor car which was originally built by Pullman Standard for the Wabash's Railroad's Chicago to St. Louis Bluebird. The Southern bought the dome parlor car and a dome coach from the Norfolk and Western in the late 1960s. The parlor car was originally operated for a while on Central of Georgia's Nancy Hanks II from Atlanta to Savannah and then transferred to the Southern Crescent. The dome coach operated on the Nancy Hanks II until April 30, 1971 when the train was discontinued on the eve of Amtrak. Southern then transferred the dome coach to the Asheville Special which continued to operate as a Southern train between Salisbury and Asheville. The Asheville Special connected to and from Southern's Piedmont Ltd at Salisbury. The Asheville Special was discontinued in the mid 70s and Amtrak may have transferred the dome coach to the Southern Crescent at that time. I road the Southern Crescent from Atlanta to Birmigham in September, 1975 and its still carried the dome parlor car.



I rode that dome parlor sometime during that period. I was the only person with an actual reserved seat in the downstairs parlor. Passengers from the rest of the train thought the parlor area was an open lounge car. I had to guard against my seat being taken.


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## Southern Crescent Rider (Aug 28, 2008)

Photo of entry door to coach (?) on Southern Crescent Summer 1973 at Birmingham.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/280659...fac9304bb_b.jpg

Southern Crescent summer 1973

Hope that works.


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## Southern Crescent Rider (Aug 28, 2008)

Another one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/280659...251351742_b.jpg


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 28, 2008)

The Southern Crescent was the last regulary scheduled great long distance passenger train in the US. I rode it several times in the 1970s covering various segments of the entire route from Washington DC to New Orleans. The service was excellent. The dining car was superb with excellant food and pleasant decore. China and sliver flatware were standard. I have ridden Amtrak's Crescent a number of times and it is not the same. Unfortunately the equipment was 29 years old when Southern decided to give the train up to Amtrak. The railroad like the other private railroads before them could not justify the cost of new passenger equipment.


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## Amtrak Kid (Aug 29, 2008)

The Location of that Photo is accurate, just not the train name.

Corey


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## Mark Sublette (Sep 11, 2010)

I watched the old Southern Crescent go through Clemson, S.C. for many years in the 1970s, and I can say that a usual consist out of their standard fleet of some seventeen E-8A diesels and ~81 cars, usually was four E-8s, a baggage or baggage-dorm car, three or four coaches, usually in the 800-series, one of the three "Crescent"-series half-sleeper/half-lounge cars, one of the 3300-series diners, and two to four "River" series 10-6 sleepers. Between Washington and Atlanta, a company office car or two were not uncommon, bringing up the rear. An Amtrak "through" 10-6 sleeper, almost always a "Pacific" car of Union Pacific heritage, but occasionally an ex-Santa Fe "Pine" series 10-6, operated through to New Orleans tri-weekly with the tri-weekly leg of the Southern Crescent, south of Atlanta. After the Shipman, Virginia, wreck on 3 December 1978, that demolished three E-8s, the motive power pack was cut back to three units.

After Amtrak took over on 1 February 1979, the Southern E-8s were used for a few more months, but by August all were in a deadline at the Atlanta shops. Some were sold to New Jersey transit. Some of the Southern rolling stock went to Amtrak, including coaches, diners, and baggage cars, but the sleepers were mostly disposed of piecemeal.

Hope this is useful - Mark Sublette, former Amtrak car attendent, now in Clemson, S.C.


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## spacecadet (Sep 11, 2010)

These are all photos taken onboard the Southern Crescent in either 1978 or 1979:

















I just noticed that I'm actually in the first photo - I'm the kid in the red shirt at the front of the dome. My mother must have taken that photo.

In the second one, you can see an Amtrak through car two cars ahead of the dome. In both of the last two photos you can see the E8's, but they're a little more obvious in the third one.

I also have photos of this train from the outside, but not on this computer, and I have no monitor connected to the computer they're on right now...

Things were quite obviously declining by this time, though. The train itself is very dirty and worn in appearance on the outside in my pics, though I remember the interiors looking ok.


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## had8ley (Sep 11, 2010)

Montanan said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Now I'm curious. What would the typical consist of the *Southern Crescent *been just before it joined Amtrak?
> ...


Add a baggage/dorm behind the mules and you've got a Southern (Railroad) Crescent...


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## AlanB (Sep 11, 2010)

Please take note that this is a 2 year old topic.


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## had8ley (Sep 12, 2010)

Well....I never noticed the age of the post but thought it would be beneficial to the Forum to fill in the blanks. We are discussing a train that hasn't run in over 30 years carrying Southern markers.Many southern RR's,ACL,SCL etc.,)listed bag-dorms in the Official Guide of the Railways, and sometimes public TT's, but not Southern; perhaps because it was a non-revenue car. Having ridden the train often and switched it out in NOL I can say that it carried a bag-dorm every trip. Besides,no one has posted this info in the two years that you speak of.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks like the Southern Crescent by itself between New York and Washington was not that long. I suppose it must have carried additional Coaches for local traffic?


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## had8ley (Sep 13, 2010)

jis said:


> Looks like the Southern Crescent by itself between New York and Washington was not that long. I suppose it must have carried additional Coaches for local traffic?


There was "Receive/Discharge Passengers Only" between Washington and New York much like today so no need for short(pax)cars. There were many Southern cars, (diner,tavern lounge, sleepers and coaches) added in Washington which almost doubled the size of the train in peak periods.


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## bill haithcoat (Sep 13, 2010)

The long history of th train known variously as the Crescent Limited, the Crescent, the Southern Crescent and the Crescent is complicated Aso, that name from about 1971 to 1979,Southern Crescent, represented the merger between the Crescent and the Southerner.

One of the things which has not been consistent is the present day discharge only/receive only practice from Alexandria north. In fact, it is not consistent today, that is, with the southbound Carolinian.

Checking both a Southern timetable and an Amtrak TT for April 1978 I find the NYC cars for the Southern Crescnt were carried in the Patriot from Washington north, which of coure did have local coaches of its own, which would not be necessary to list in the Southern timetable.. And the timetable for that date does not how the "D" and "R" of today. But, as I said, that has varied through the yeas both with Amtrak and before when it was the Pennsylvania RR from WAS north.


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## Ctim2 (Sep 13, 2010)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Montanan said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I just have to add the following -- it's the verbatum description from the timetable of the Southern Crescent's Master Room:
> ...



Bill do you know anything abot the L&N running the Crescent (sout of Atlanta ( ATL-Mobile-NOL)ater the Southern combining of the Southern and the Crescent.... Here's what I just the A&WP, Western of Alabama, and L&N continued to run the "Crescent" between Atlanta and New Orleans. Each morning, the "Crescent" and the "Southern Crescent" departed Atlanta for New Orleans over different routes. By then, the "Crescent" was a coach-only train sustained by two storage mail cars. Eventually, it was run combined with the "Pan American" south of Montgomery. In 1970, with the mail contract cancelled, the "Crescent" was discontinued.

Tim


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## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 13, 2010)

Ctim2 said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Montanan said:
> ...


Let's paint broad strokes first. Historically the Crescent and the Pidmont Limited operated from ATL to Montgomery on the Atlanta and West Point, then L&N from Montgomery through Mobile to NOL.

In 1941 the Souherner was built and it ran south of ATL on today's route of the Crescent.

About 1971 the Southern merged the Crescent and the Southerner into one train and called it the Southern Crescent.The word southern there did not refer to the region or to the rairoad but was supposed to remind us of the former Southerner. This train went to NOL via BHM as it does still today.

In 1979 it became an Amtrak train, and the word "Southern" which was never understood corectly to refer to th Southerner was dropped.

In that turn over period all kinds of wierd things happened. I do know the short two car consist you are talking about but do not think it ran at the same time as the Southern Crescent. That short Crescent was combined with the Humming Bird southbound from Montgomery to NOL and northbound with the Pan American from NOL to Montgomery.

In fact tht combining with L&N trains from Mont to NOL had already been happening for several years. That is a story all unto iself.


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## jphjaxfl (Sep 14, 2010)

Ctim2 said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Montanan said:
> ...


The Crescent was combined with L&N's Hummingbird (not the Pan American) south of Montgomery. The Hummingbird had a 2 hour layover to wait for the Crescent. The Hummingbird was discontinued in January, 1969. For a while the West Point ran a coach only Crescent from Atlanta to Montgomery with no connection to New Orleans.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 14, 2010)

jphjaxfl said:


> Ctim2 said:
> 
> 
> > Bill Haithcoat said:
> ...



Yes, southbound the Crescent was combined from Montgomery to NOL with the Humming Bird (two words)and not the Pan American.

But northbound the Crescent was combined with the Pan American out of NOL. That happened for several years as trains got shorter and shorter.

As I said in the earlier post(post #24)the whole picture of trains combined between Montgomery, Flomaton,etc to NOL became very involved,and at one time or another,inclued the Crescent, the Humming Bird, the Gulf Wind, the Pan American and the Piedmnt Limited (not all at once,of course). I am speaking in abroad generalities as it got sort of complicated and things changed a lot towards the end.


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## had8ley (Sep 14, 2010)

bill haithcoat said:


> The long history of th train known variously as the Crescent Limited, the Crescent, the Southern Crescent and the Crescent is complicated Aso, that name from about 1971 to 1979,Southern Crescent, represented the merger between the Crescent and the Southerner.
> 
> One of the things which has not been consistent is the present day discharge only/receive only practice from Alexandria north. In fact, it is not consistent today, that is, with the southbound Carolinian.
> 
> Checking both a Southern timetable and an Amtrak TT for April 1978 I find the NYC cars for the Southern Crescnt were carried in the Patriot from Washington north, which of coure did have local coaches of its own, which would not be necessary to list in the Southern timetable.. And the timetable for that date does not how the "D" and "R" of today. But, as I said, that has varied through the yeas both with Amtrak and before when it was the Pennsylvania RR from WAS north.


Bill is correct, as usual. The Southern trains got switched around quite a bit once they arrived in D.C. Personally, I don't think the Southern was too interested in their equipment and OBS crews going to NYP (Sunnyside). At one time the sleepers rode one train north to NYP and the coaches rode another train; of course, this was pre-Amtrak.


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## Bill Schaller (May 2, 2012)

*+ + + + + + NOTE - a Near Two Year Old Topic + + + + + + +*

Had the pleasure of many trips aboard the Southern Crescent, including in the Master Room. The fried chicken in the diner, served on real china, was excellent.my wife and I were aboard a sleeper when #2 derailed in Elma Va. At 5:38 am on that 1978 morning. I recall being awakened by the sound of the train going into emergency, followed immediately by the car going on the ground. It was a rough ride as we chewed up the ties before the Pullman came to rest almost on it's side. The conductor, despite having struck his head in an adjoining bedroom in the derailment, found our door in the darkness and asked if we were injured. The window in an adjacent room had to be broken to evacuate us as both vestibules were too damaged to allow egress. I vividly recall the smell when we got outside. Freshly dug earth, a carbon aroma from freshly twisted steel, diesel fuel and creosote. Among the lives lost, a young man who turned out to be the son of an old friend of my boss, and legendary Southern chef Louis Price. I later became a PV owner and leaving Chicago invited the gentleman who was president of the southern in 1978. He was fascinated to hear we had been on board and shared his unique memories of that day from his perspective. I recall he said of the engineer: "well, that was his last day on the railroad.". Unfortunately, it was for Louis Price as well.


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