# AAA Discontinued Effective 2/18/18



## Acela150 (Feb 7, 2018)

Was notified at work today that AAA will no longer be accepted for 10% off of fares effective next Sunday 2/18/18.


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## LookingGlassTie (Feb 7, 2018)

Well that kinda stinks. Oh well...............


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## daybeers (Feb 7, 2018)

Well that's kinda ridiculous. Amtrak is going to lose even more revenue and ridership than when they discontinued the student discount and raised the minimum age for the senior one.


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## pennyk (Feb 7, 2018)

I have heard that the NARP discount will remain.


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## Ryan (Feb 7, 2018)

Rewarding people for membership in an organization with a history of opposing transit and focuses on driver convenience always seemed odd to me.


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## Acela150 (Feb 7, 2018)

daybeers said:


> Well that's kinda ridiculous. Amtrak is going to lose even more revenue and ridership than when they discontinued the student discount and raised the minimum age for the senior one.


Not really. Many people don’t even use it.



pennyk said:


> I have heard that the NARP discount will remain.


I think if the NARP discount goes away that the NARP May give Amtrak some trouble of it.



Ryan said:


> Rewarding people for membership in an organization with a history of opposing transit and focuses on driver convenience always seemed odd to me.





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 7, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> daybeers said:
> 
> 
> > Well that's kinda ridiculous. Amtrak is going to lose even more revenue and ridership than when they discontinued the student discount and raised the minimum age for the senior one.
> ...


I have in the past.


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## Acela150 (Feb 7, 2018)

In the past week or so I have been taking phone calls at the call center. In the 50 or so reservations I've made or modified or even looked at for a passenger only 2 of those had a AAA discount. Both of those Passengers were unaware of the AAA discount.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 7, 2018)

Aaa is the automotive lobby. Its exist on transit is absurd


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## ChuckL (Feb 7, 2018)

I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## inspiration100 (Feb 7, 2018)

ChuckL said:


> I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Agree! Amtrak has been making a lot of bad decisions lately, and this goes on my list also.


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## railiner (Feb 8, 2018)

ChuckL said:


> I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I was just about to say the same thing.......I'll wager that the AAA travel organization, one of the largest, if not the largest, contributes a heck of a lot more business (and support, if you read their travel magazine) to Amtrak, then all of the rail lobbying organizations do, combined....


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## daybeers (Feb 8, 2018)

railiner said:


> ChuckL said:
> 
> 
> > I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.
> ...


Agreed!

Edit: at least to the contributing business part, as there are a lot of AAA members nationwide.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2018)

railiner said:


> ChuckL said:
> 
> 
> > I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.
> ...


What kind of irrational wager is this? Rail lobbying organizations are trying to influence public policy. They are not trying to function as Amtrak's marketing department. AAA has a history of attacking basic environmental protections like the Clean Air Act, lobbying for zoning restrictions that create extended commutes while also fighting against public transportation and pollution reduction initiatives, and looking for ways to pave over or around as much natural land as possible. Maybe those actions mirror your own views and positions, but they do not help or support Amtrak in any meaningful way. If AAA loves passenger rail so much I'm sure Amtrak would be happy to allow AAA to cover the cost of any future discounts out of their own pocket.


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## Maverickstation (Feb 8, 2018)

railiner said:


> ChuckL said:
> 
> 
> > I always used the AAA discount for my tickets. AAA is a travel agency as well. Maybe AAA should stop it’s sales of Amtrak tickets and vacations.
> ...


Well said, at least here in the Northeast and New England the AAA newsletters mailed to all members always speak of the importance of transit balance, and they often promote the heck out of Amtrak and to a far wider audience than NARP. To say anything to the contrary is stupidity, plain and simple.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## KnightRail (Feb 8, 2018)

Book more than two weeks out and get the Saver Fare. Its better than any other discounts. The cleaning up of this and all of the other excessive discounting is long over due. Sure, the lack of discounts may stop some from traveling, but its nothing compared to the millions of dollars left on the table over the years that was discounted when it didnt have to be. These moves are smart business as they will substantially increase revenue without increasing costs.


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## HP_Lovecraft (Feb 8, 2018)

I always assumed that AAA subsidized some of that discount? Since the purpose is cross-marketing.

I suspect that AAA was no longer able to fund it. AAA membership has been dropping over the years- Probobly because its 2 main services: Travel Agency, and Towing Service, are usually offered elsewhere (ie your car insurance usually offers cheaper roadside towing, and the internet has made traditional travel agencies pointless).

That said, I discovered many years ago that if I sent the local AAA a request for information, they sent me a free trial membership, good for any discounts within the trial period. So I'd used that for whatever big trip I was taking that year. Sounds like I've lost that little loophole.


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## the_traveler (Feb 8, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What kind of irrational wager is this? Rail lobbying organizations are trying to influence public policy. They are not trying to function as Amtrak's marketing department. AAA has a history of attacking basic environmental protections like the Clean Air Act, lobbying for zoning restrictions that create extended commutes while also fighting against public transportation and pollution reduction initiatives, and looking for ways to pave over or around as much natural land as possible. Maybe those actions mirror your own views and positions, but they do not help or support Amtrak in any meaningful way. If AAA loves passenger rail so much I'm sure Amtrak would be happy to allow AAA to cover the cost of any future discounts out of their own pocket.


I have to agree with DA on this.


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## xyzzy (Feb 8, 2018)

Airlines have none of these discounts. As far as I know, neither does Megabus although they do have an active discount program that is very targeted and dynamic. Greyhound still does senior and student discounts but not AAA.


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## jis (Feb 8, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of irrational wager is this? Rail lobbying organizations are trying to influence public policy. They are not trying to function as Amtrak's marketing department. AAA has a history of attacking basic environmental protections like the Clean Air Act, lobbying for zoning restrictions that create extended commutes while also fighting against public transportation and pollution reduction initiatives, and looking for ways to pave over or around as much natural land as possible. Maybe those actions mirror your own views and positions, but they do not help or support Amtrak in any meaningful way. If AAA loves passenger rail so much I'm sure Amtrak would be happy to allow AAA to cover the cost of any future discounts out of their own pocket.
> ...


Likewise.

AAA has its uses, but supporting passenger rail in the policy arena is not one of them, irrespective of what they occasionally write in the rags. We have enough experience countering AAA advocacy against passenger rail where it matters, in the halls of Congress.


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## railiner (Feb 8, 2018)

What AAA fight's against, is the unfair practice of making motorists carry public transit rider's on their backs, not Amtrak....in other word's, subway, commuter rail, and local bus, and not Amtrak.

For example...bridge's and tunnel's have been paid for many times over by toll's--both original cost as well as operating cost, yet the tolls keep on increasing to stratospheric level's to subsidize transit rider's relatively low cost fares that don't even begin to pay their way. And highways and bridges have been long neglected since road use and fuel tax revenue surpluses were long siphoned off by government's to balance their general budget. AAA does however recognize the need for public transportation, and even acknowledges the benfit to motorist's due to reduced congestion....they just think that the benefit should come from the general fund, more, and not disproportionately from motorists....

And AAA does not pay any portion of the discount offered to its members...the discounts all come from the merchant's offering them, and they do so for the tremendous amount of additional business they receive as a result.

I agree that you can get lower rates for road service from your insurance company, and more and more people book their travel online directly. I still belong to AAA, because they are the only agency fighting for the rights of motorists, whether it is for infrastructure funding, unfair taxes, fighting speed traps and red light camera's that have been proven to be used not for safety, but to raise revenue, even causing rear-ender accidents...

AAA has indeed featured and promoted Amtrak and other rail travel in their magazines....not many other travel organization's do....


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## Ryan (Feb 8, 2018)

railiner said:


> What AAA fight's against, is the unfair practice of making motorists carry public transit rider's on their backs








Wonder how those motorists would fare if all those transit riders appeared on the roads during rush hour.

Around here, AAA is most notable for whinging about speed cameras (while ignoring the fact that it's a simple remedy to avoid a ticket from one).


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 8, 2018)

Speed cameras should be illegal. And I hate AAA.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 8, 2018)

AAA was big before GPS mapping was available, before your new car with road service, your car insurance offered road service, and before on line booking became available. Growing up most everyone in the family was a AAA member and I remember going to AAA offices for the trip flip maps.

With the membership dropping every year, I imagine our new Amtrak CEO saw little benefit in the expense, especially since Delta didn't offer such discounts.


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## Bex (Feb 8, 2018)

KnightRail said:


> Book more than two weeks out and get the Saver Fare. Its better than any other discounts. The cleaning up of this and all of the other excessive discounting is long over due. Sure, the lack of discounts may stop some from traveling, but its nothing compared to the millions of dollars left on the table over the years that was discounted when it didnt have to be. These moves are smart business as they will substantially increase revenue without increasing costs.


The saver fare has been available less and less for trains I take. So I've been using the AAA discount more and this is a real bummer.


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## jebr (Feb 8, 2018)

railiner said:


> What AAA fight's against, is the unfair practice of making motorists carry public transit rider's on their backs


Considering that fuel and vehicle taxes only account for 42% of the $202 billion spent on roads (at least as of 2010, from this article,) I don't feel particularly bad about public transit also being subsidized. It's a fallacy (from the sounds of it, at least partially perpetrated by the AAA) that roads, on the whole, pay for themselves. There may be certain toll roads that in a vacuum pay for themselves, but the vast majority of roads do not even come close to paying for themselves.

If AAA is fighting against funding public transit (of which Amtrak is part of the public transit landscape) under a misconceived notion that roads "pay for themselves" but public transit doesn't, then I can't blame Amtrak for wanting to stop giving a discount to members of said organization. While AAA may offer more ridership in the short-term, NARP (er, RPA) and other rail advocacy organizations actively work for Amtrak's growth, unlike AAA's advocacy for roads above all else. If I was Amtrak, I'd much rather offer a discount to members of an organization that work for better rail service rather than work to advance competing modes of transportation.


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## gradstudentrailfan (Feb 8, 2018)

I always appreciated having the AAA discount and am sad for my own sake to see it go away. I always wondered how this discount, and all the others ones, was financially advantageous for Amtrak. With AAA, student, senior, etc discounts, it seemed to me that Amtrak was giving away too much revenue. I used to work for Five Guys, and it was a corporate principle that we never gave coupons or discounts because they implied that the food wasn't worth the price on the menu. It seems the discounts went away because Amtrak was losing money on them. Painful as this is, hopefully this brings Amtrak a step closer to financial viability.


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## caravanman (Feb 9, 2018)

I guess AAA membership implies ownership of a vehicle? If I wanted to encourage folk to consider using my train company instead of driving their car, offering them an incentive to do so seems sensible to me...

Not a great time to drop any incentives, following the recent spate of accidents, methinks.

Ed.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 9, 2018)

The demographic of AAA membership perhaps skews to older, higher than average disposable income with an interest in travel - just what Amtrak is targeting for long distance travel. That could be a reason why Amtrak pursued that market with the discount. Most hotels and car rental companies do the same. However, I don't think 10% off rail fare only is a make or break in the choice of travel. For some sleeper trips it may be only a couple of percent off the total fare. I think Amtrak could reach that same market by advertising in the local AAA magazines.

As for lobbying and trying to influence transportation policy, I've never found AAA to be a major player. When I think of the "highway lobby" I think more of AGC, ACEC, the trade unions, and even ASCE (I'm a member) than I do AAA. They always say "follow the money." The money is with those who benefit from large, publicly funded construction and employment, not with AAA.


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## LookingGlassTie (Feb 9, 2018)

gradstudentrailfan and PRR 60, you both make good points.


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## KmH (Feb 9, 2018)

While reducing/eliminating discounts may help a bit Amtrak has a ways to go before being financially independent from the largess of Congress.

NEC infrastructure upkeep/upgrades and the looming need to replace aging locomotive and Superliner equipment will be costly.


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## willem (Feb 9, 2018)

PRR 60 said:


> [...] I don't think 10% off rail fare only is a make or break in the choice of travel. For some sleeper trips it may be only a couple of percent off the total fare. [...]


This is why I see the demise of the AAA discount (and the reduction of the senior discount, which I now use) as minor issues. If I were on a budget that precluded sleeping car accommodations, I might feel differently.


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## AcrossTheOcean (Feb 9, 2018)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Speed cameras should be illegal. And I hate AAA.


Speed cameras, or "blitzers" as they are called, are a common thing here. While I can't say I "like" them, I do see the safety advantages. If it isn't a police officer pulling someone over, there is no chance of the officer being injured because someone didn't move over as they went past. And you put a check in the mail when you get the ticket instead of having to spend a half hour as the cop issues your ticket followed by a court date.

Looking at the trip I want to book, even with sleeping car accomodations, the AAA discount will save us about $50. It may be a small percentage of the entire ticket, but it is enough to feed my family a meal in a restaurant at our destination.


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## jis (Feb 9, 2018)

For whatever it is worth Anderson has decided that Amtrak must get to 100% operating ratio come hell or high water, and given that goal I expect all discounts that do not provably increase revenues in the net are likely to be gone. I don't believe AAAs lobbying activities are a consideration as far as Amtrak is concerned, in the past or at present. It is a pure revenue and P&L management move.


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## Ryan (Feb 9, 2018)

jis said:


> I don't believe AAAs lobbying activities are a consideration as far as Amtrak is concerned, in the past or at present. It is a pure revenue and P&L management move.


Wholeheartedly concur.


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## Chey (Feb 9, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> AAA was big before GPS mapping was available, before your new car with road service, your car insurance offered road service, and before on line booking became available. Growing up most everyone in the family was a AAA member and I remember going to AAA offices for the trip flip maps.


I remember those maps, triptiks - they were the best, the detail on them was awesome - but that was before smartphones and GPS. Nostalgic but obsolete now,


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## Chey (Feb 9, 2018)

AcrossTheOcean said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Speed cameras should be illegal. And I hate AAA.
> ...


I don't know about Europe, but here they're engineered to make money for the camera company and the city that uses them. They actually make everyone more unsafe with their shortened times for yellow lights. In my city rear end collisions at intersections with the cameras went way up before the city finally took them out.


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## Ryan (Feb 9, 2018)

You're talking about traffic light cameras, not speed cameras.

Also, not all traffic light cameras shorten yellow lights.


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## Chey (Feb 9, 2018)

Oops, you're right. I haven't had to deal with a speed camera since I moved to west Texas, but where I came from in Arizona speed cameras used to nab people on the route I took to work - and needed to - some people were exceeding 100 mph on that particular stretch of freeway.

I've seen red light cameras that get people for stopping on the DOT line too.


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## KnightRail (Feb 9, 2018)

gradstudentrailfan said:


> With AAA, student, senior, etc discounts, it seemed to me that Amtrak was giving away too much revenue. I used to work for Five Guys, and it was a corporate principle that we never gave coupons or discounts because they implied that the food wasn't worth the price on the menu. It seems the discounts went away because Amtrak was losing money on them. Painful as this is, hopefully this brings Amtrak a step closer to financial viability.


Exactly. If you have a quality product, you shouldnt have to be discounting it all the time. Successful restaurants dont have to nor want to ever discount. Its a sign of being weak and desperate. We all end up paying for those discounts anyways. Have seen some signs in businesses over the years to the effect of Want a discount?, just give us a moment to raise our prices.
There is nothing wrong with offering flash sales and things like the Track Friday Sale to boost ridership during slower periods, but offering long term permanent disconts has to be stopped. Theres no reason to be discounting high demand trains.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 9, 2018)

I think that hits the core issue on the head. Discounts are most helpful to the bottom line when they're focused on routes and schedules that have little chance of selling out on their own. Fill those seats with passengers who might not have otherwise traveled by Amtrak but were enticed to buy tickets thanks to substantially cheaper fares. On the other hand providing discounts which allow nearly unlimited use, including on busier trains that could fill those seats without a discount, risks leaving money on the table.


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## ChuckL (Feb 9, 2018)

KnightRail said:


> There is nothing wrong with offering flash sales and things like the Track Friday Sale to boost ridership during slower periods, but offering long term permanent disconts has to be stopped. Theres no reason to be discounting high demand trains.


Amtrak may want to look at what Via Rail Canada does every Tuesday. They email a list of trains and partial routes that they are discounting in the next week. I assume they select train routes between cities that have a low number of bookings. These mailings are sent to members of their Via Preference group which is similar to AGR. Better to sell a discounted seat than have it be empty with no fare realized.

(I have goofed up the HTML editing of the OP name and posting name, so my apologies to KnightRail)

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## dlagrua (Feb 10, 2018)

Whether you agree with an associations position on passenger rail, one thing certain is that discounts and promotions do help business. Read the media; there are sales going on for businesses constantly. Businesses do it to incentivize the customer and provide an enticement for people to purchase. Take those away and business will be affected. If the discounts are gone, less people will purchase tickets and prices will be going down regardless. Amtrak has now attacked the seniors, the AAA discount and the students. Is removing incentives and discounts a good way of promoting a business?


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 10, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> Whether you agree with an associations position on passenger rail, one thing certain is that discounts and promotions do help business. Read the media; there are *sales* going on for businesses constantly. Businesses do it to incentivize the customer and provide an enticement for people to purchase. Take those away and business will be affected. If the discounts are gone, less people will purchase tickets and prices will be going down regardless. Amtrak has now attacked the seniors, the AAA discount and the students. Is removing incentives and discounts a good way of promoting a business?


Sales and discounts are two different things. With sales, they can offer them whenever they feel the need. No need to entice riders during peak times, then no sale. Need to entice riders during non-peak times, then offer a onetime sale.


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## dlagrua (Feb 10, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Whether you agree with an associations position on passenger rail, one thing certain is that discounts and promotions do help business. Read the media; there are *sales* going on for businesses constantly. Businesses do it to incentivize the customer and provide an enticement for people to purchase. Take those away and business will be affected. If the discounts are gone, less people will purchase tickets and prices will be going down regardless. Amtrak has now attacked the seniors, the AAA discount and the students. Is removing incentives and discounts a good way of promoting a business?
> ...


Having owned my own advertising agency in the late 90's, our statistics showed that the advertisers that had the best offers, enjoyed the best return on their investment. The businesses that had no offer did poorly. You cannot always count on any train selling out but even if they do, offers help get the cash in now rather than later. That's a huge advantage.

I believe that its safe to say that the next few years will represent changes in a critical demographic of Amtrak's LD ridership. The changes to this demographic will be significant in the next few years due to downsizing, relocation, retirement, changes in income, health issues and even death. Amtrak would be wise to consider this when promoting the service.

As one who is now in semi-retirement, you can bet that price comparisons, offers and discounts play heavily into my decision to purchase. Am I the only one???


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 10, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


Hmm, I think I can afford the extra $23.20 for a cross country trip in May. Can you?


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 10, 2018)

As a semi-retired person on a fixed income, I agree with diagrua on this.

I use coupons,discounts,sales etc. whenever I can since that $5 or $10 I save adds up and enables me to have a little more disposable income to spend on things that are not essential such as Amtrak travel.

I agree that Amtrak needs to enhance its revenue, but think doing away with Student and Senior discounts is penny wise and pound foolish. YMMV


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## Maverickstation (Feb 10, 2018)

An important feature of the AAA discount was that you could use it up to 3 days ahead of travel.

Not all of us on a fixed income can plan travel all that far out. For the fixed income that we are on is better known as a salary.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## neroden (Feb 10, 2018)

pennyk said:


> I have heard that the NARP discount will remain.


Well, getting people to join passenger rail advocacy organizations does benefit Amtrak in the long run.

Getting them to join AAA... really doesn't, so unless it's bringing in business which wouldn't otherwise exist, the AAA discount seems ripe for cancellation. I'm an AAA member for various reasons (I still use their roadside assistance and I still love the free maps), but I've noticed that AAA's promotional magazine never suggests taking the train. Ahem.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 10, 2018)

Wow. This is tough. I find myself in the unenviable position of publicly disagree with two people that I normally wouldn't. But I feel this is too important to leave unmentioned.



KnightRail said:


> Book more than two weeks out and get the Saver Fare. Its better than any other discounts. The cleaning up of this and all of the other excessive discounting is long over due. Sure, the lack of discounts may stop some from traveling, but its nothing compared to the millions of dollars left on the table over the years that was discounted when it didnt have to be. These moves are smart business as they will substantially increase revenue without increasing costs.



Knightrider,

Not everyone can make firm plans 2 weeks in advance. Amtrak used to have an extremely strong "walk up" market. It was one of the advantages of train travel. Someone passed away and the flights are full? We'll take Amtrak! The airlines are grounded? We'll take Amtrak! The Phillies won the playoffs? We'll take an Amtrak to Baltimore for the world series. It was a cash and carry operation. Delivery upon demand. No seats? No problem! We'll stand! We'd introduce riders of other forms of transportation by making it easy and affordable for them to ride. We were able to retain disaffected riders.

How much revenue have we left on the table by eliminating the convenience of travel? How many riders and future riders have we chased away by overpricing ourselves and making it inconvenient....and now expensive to ride?



KnightRail said:


> gradstudentrailfan said:
> 
> 
> > With AAA, student, senior, etc discounts, it seemed to me that Amtrak was giving away too much revenue. I used to work for Five Guys, and it was a corporate principle that we never gave coupons or discounts because they implied that the food wasn't worth the price on the menu. It seems the discounts went away because Amtrak was losing money on them. Painful as this is, hopefully this brings Amtrak a step closer to financial viability.
> ...



*IF* you have a quality product and competition isn't everywhere, you can get away without discounting all the time. However, when you have a product that is typically slower that other forms of transportation, typically more expensive than driving and less convenient, you may want to give yourself EVERY advantage you can.

Amtrak is not cheap in some markets. If you're going to make it expensive and inconvenient as a plane, why not just hop on an actual plane to save time? If you're going to make it expensive an airlines are not available, there are fleets of cheap buses that arrive and depart right to the next the Amtrak station. The train may be a little faster, but it triples the cost of a bus.

You can practically take a limo from NYP-PHL for what you'll fork out for a train. There are also shared car services like Uber and Lyft, nipping away at Amtrak's heels....and if all else fails, I can drive myself.

There is a LOT of competition (that isn't getting the bad press that Amtrak is receiving as of late) for limited budgets. Is this the time to beat down walk up travel?

Many, many years ago, I worked as a salesperson. You have to sell the product. I'm in a rush, something just occurred and I have money in my hand. I need to travel! What can you say to me to lure me to your expensive, maybe once a day product, KnightRider? I save 20 minutes?

As for discounting "high demand" trains, if they are so high demand, why is the Capitol down to two coaches? Why is the Crescent down to two coaches? The Late for Sure? Even the Palmetto is down...and that was prior to losing another set on the Star...and I've always wondered how much of this "record ridership" is based upon people traveling back and forth on *discounted* vouchers.

Which brings me to a story that I wasn't going to tell but this is the perfect set up.

I was on a train, There was a fatality so nothing was moving. Announcement were made and the crew kept the passengers informed. As things were beginning to clear, a young lady (probably in her early twenties) approaches the crew. I was standing next to them (with my ID on). She asks if we think we'll move soon. The crew states we'll probably be on the move in a few minutes.

She says and this is direct quote (which I won't forget) "you are all doing a great job...but every time I write Amtrak and complain, they send me *liiiike* 60 dollars for future travel. I don't want to get you in any trouble so I wanted to ask if you minded if I write in an complain?"

The crew all looked at each other and said as long as you leave us out of it, we don't care. Then, the young looks at me and asked if I minded. I looked down at my ID (which I was sorry I was wearing) and said "if that is what you feel is necessary, by all means." She thanke dthe crew, told them they were doing a great job and walked away...presumably to complain to customer service.

I suspect she's not alone.





The point is, I remember when the Crescent used be 18 cars long. It had coach seating for 300 passengers. It is currently running around with seating for 120 coach passengers. I remember when a train like 95 on the NEC had 12 coaches (with two cafes)....and the coaches seated 85 passengers...and that train had standees!!!

That is high demand. Filling two coaches is not high demand. If anything, we should be finding more ways to put butts in the seats!



AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...


AmtrakBlue, I'm forced to disagree with you. Consider what is said below:



Bob Dylan said:


> As a semi-retired person on a fixed income, I agree with diagrua on this.
> 
> I use coupons,discounts,sales etc. whenever I can since that $5 or $10 I save adds up and enables me to have a little more disposable income to spend on things that are not essential such as Amtrak travel.
> 
> I agree that Amtrak needs to enhance its revenue, but think doing away with Student and Senior discounts is penny wise and pound foolish. YMMV



You might be able to do so....but not everyone is you! Consider that 23.50 on a corridor train. Then, multiply by your family of four. You are now approaching a savings of $100....each way. That may be the difference between taking the trip or not taking the trip. That maybe the difference between taking Amtrak and driving. Every little bit counts.


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2018)

Valid points, but wouldn't your aims be better served then by lower overall pricing, rather than a discount that only some people have access to?

(as an aside, does the equipment still exist to run 18 car trains routinely?)


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 10, 2018)

I don't favor lowering all prices Ryan, that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

As Thirdrail points out, the NEC, and the East in General, have much higher rail fares than other parts of the Country,but it doesn't seem to be hurting the ridership nor revenue on most of these routes,especially the Expensive Acelas.

Should Amtrak discontinue ALL Discounts, the answer is obvious, NO!

The amount spent by Seniors and Students on discounts is pocket change in the scheme of things when it comes to Amtraks Budget, but why go out of the way to have a policy that discourages these groups ridership,not encourages it!??


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## Railroad Bill (Feb 10, 2018)

We have been AAA members for many years. Still use the "free" maps, and the AAA towing since some of the insurance company towing services are hard to find in our area. AAA towing is down the street in our town and in most places outside the large cities.

Mostly we use the AAA discounts for hotels. It has saved us a lot of money over the years. We do not use riceline or some of the other discounters since we need the flexibility of cancelling reservations due to health concerns. Actually we have found that AAA discounts were better when booking directly through Hilton online than what Expedia, Hotels.com or Priceline were offering.

Since we have qualified for senior discounts on Amtrak we no longer used the AAA discount, which I am sure was true of many riders who have aged (which as pointed out are a major source of AAA memberships).

Making the AGR points redemptions higher has affected our ridership more than any of the discounts. We once took 5-6 trips per year and now maybe 2-3. We still pay for trips on the CL to WAS or CHI or LSL to NYP but our western trips have become more limited.

I also agree that if Amtrak did a Discount Tuesday ad campaign as VIA does, it might encourage more ridership?? Have no stats to back that upl


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## jebr (Feb 10, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Should Amtrak discontinue ALL Discounts, the answer is obvious, NO!
> 
> The amount spent by Seniors and Students on discounts is pocket change in the scheme of things when it comes to Amtraks Budget, but why go out of the way to have a policy that discourages these groups ridership,not encourages it!??


I don't think the answer is obvious. Blanket discounting means that Amtrak is discounting seats on Thanksgiving weekend, where Amtrak routinely runs extra trains just to keep up with demand. That seems a bit crazy to me.

That being said, I think Amtrak should generally eliminate straight-up discounts. The one that seemed the best targeted was the student discount, which was already eliminated. The NARP discount somewhat makes sense, though perhaps Amtrak could retool the discount to be more targeted to lower-demand trains. I think doing something like that across the board for the current discounts would be helpful; maybe offer no senior or student discount on peak travel days, but up the discount to 20% or even 30% for fares if the train is historically under half-full. Or offer some close-in discounts to fill trains that are running pretty quiet that day (or that week) closer-in than what the SmartFares currently allow. It could be more aggressive than discounting to the general public - offering it to a limited subset would allow it to be more frequent without devaluing the train to those who aren't part of those groups (and thus are more likely to have enough spending money to pay full fare.)


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## daybeers (Feb 10, 2018)

It's been very interesting to catch up on this thread. Thirdrail, you bring up some interesting points. Ridership does go up every year, though, so are you saying there has been less recently?

I'm also interested in the answer to if there is enough equipment to go around for the longer trains that you speak of, TR. Wouldn't longer consists cause even more issues at stations with short or medium-length platforms though?



jebr said:


> *Or offer some close-in discounts to fill trains that are running pretty quiet that day (or that week) closer-in than what the SmartFares currently allow.*


THIS! A million times this. I think ridership would soar if Amtrak lowered fares in the days or the week before departure. Don't some airlines do this to fill planes? I know most of AU's members are long-distance users, but there are quite a few of us that travel on the NEC. I understand Amtrak is trying to make the most money it possibly can in order to eventually break even/make a profit and pour that revenue into capital projects, but some of the fares on the NEC, especially for short rides, are pretty ridiculous. Yes, the WAS–NYP corridor is fast and very congested, but who wants to pay double, triple, or even more than driving or taking the bus? Yes, the train is faster (usually not by much though), more comfortable, and a better experience, but when you're a college student, a family of four, and/or buying at the last minute, it gets to be too expensive.

Yes, I do enjoy having two seats to myself on the NEC, which occasionally happens (recently not as much), but we all know more ridership=more revenue=more Amtrak=curing Amtrak.


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## Chey (Feb 10, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> As a semi-retired person on a fixed income, I agree with diagrua on this.
> 
> I use coupons,discounts,sales etc. whenever I can since that $5 or $10 I save adds up and enables me to have a little more disposable income to spend on things that are not essential such as Amtrak travel.
> 
> I agree that Amtrak needs to enhance its revenue, but think doing away with Student and Senior discounts is penny wise and pound foolish. YMMV


This!


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## HP_Lovecraft (Feb 10, 2018)

On a related note, went to book a trip into boston with my kids. Typically, 2 kids are 1/2 price, but on the Downeaster, they are free on Sunday.

But not anymore? Now the discount is for only one child? That doubles the price of my ticket.


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## gradstudentrailfan (Feb 10, 2018)

I think a neglected point on this thread is that Amtrak uses price buckets to tie train prices to demand. A low demand train is by definition already discounted for that day because it's still in the lowest price bucket.


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## dlagrua (Feb 11, 2018)

If I may make another point about AAA and Amtrak; on our vacations they always tie together. We take Amtrak to a big city station and then rent a car, and go on a road trip to our final destination and return. Some of these vacations have included Seattle-Mt Rainer, Denver-Wyoming-Black Hills, SD, Chicago-Dells, WI, Indianapolis-St Louis, this year Omaha-Soiux Falls-Badlands and lets not forget that automobiles and trains come together on the Autotrain. IMO, the AAA discount may help increase business but it is now gone and we will see what happens.

Whatever Amtrak decides on discounted fares, they need to realize that trains are not the only way to travel. Air and car travel are usually less expensive and in many cases faster. Raising prices doesn't always bring you more revenue. Then there is the demographic of those that ride the LD trains that I alluded to in my prior post. When the middle age and senior audience declines/goes away, then what happens? Will the smart phone addicted Millennial's take our place?
It's highly unlikely that they will.


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## jis (Feb 11, 2018)

I don't understand why discount only for AAA? If you must promote multi-modalism, why wouldn't you give discount to all Automobile promoting organizations? I could go for that as a consistent move to encourage all automobile users to occasionally choose Amtrak. As things stand I have no problem with the selective favor to AAA members going away.

I have more problem with Student discounts going away, much more so than even the Senior discount being reduced. Frankly I would have less problem with the Senior discount going away altogether in order to restore Student discounts. As a demographic the Seniors are way richer than typical Students in today's economy, and a Student enticed into riding Amtrak with discounts today will ride for many more decades than any Senior will.

Today's Seniors will be gone in a decade or three, and will become immobile enough not to be riding trains too frequently if at all, even sooner than that. Amtrak needs to create and encourage clientele who will hang around for many more decades beyond that.

Mind you I am a Senior myself by almost any standard definition of the term.


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## ChuckL (Feb 11, 2018)

jis said:


> I don't understand why discount only for AAA? If you must promote multi-modalism, why wouldn't you give discount to all Automobile promoting organizations? I could go for that as a consistent move to encourage all automobile users to occasionally choose Amtrak. As things stand I have no problem with the selective favor to AAA members going away.
> 
> I have more problem with Student discounts going away, much more so than even the Senior discount being reduced. Frankly I would have less problem with the Senior discount going away altogether in order to restore Student discounts. As a demographic the Seniors are way richer than typical Students in today's economy, and a Student enticed into riding Amtrak with discounts today will ride for many more decades than any Senior will.
> 
> ...


As a AAA member and former Senior by Amtrak’s definition, I must wholeheartedly disagree with the comments about AAA and Senior riders, although as a former University employee on the administrative side of the house for my entire career, I would be in favor of the Student discount being resurrected because many would still benefit. AAA discounts, and not other auto organizations ONLY selling insurance and not travel, still apply to many hotels and car rental agencies as do AARP and/or Senior discounts. 
I still do support the sale promotions on a weekly basis on routes that aren’t running at capacity. VIA even does this for some sleeping accommodations.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jebr (Feb 11, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> Will the smart phone addicted Millennial's take our place?
> 
> It's highly unlikely that they will.


Considering that Millenials are generally much more willing to use and support non-automobile transportation options, I would say Millenials will almost certainly be willing to replace and grow Amtrak once the baby boomer generation can no longer take Amtrak. That is, if Amtrak actually wants to entice Millenials. The removal of the student discount seems like a short-sighted attempt to grow revenue while removing an incentive to create lifelong customers; I agree with jis that if anything the student discount is more valuable to building long-term customers than the senior discount is.

The desire of Millenials to stay connected as much as possible is a selling point for Amtrak. If I'm driving, I have to focus on the road and so can't safely drive and surf social media, forums, etc. I can do that on Amtrak. Planes, while getting better with on-board wi-fi, generally are still a bit less connected than a train can be, and plane travel is less environmentally friendly than train travel (that is, as long as Amtrak actually wants to make it environmentally friendly...reusable plates might help with that



)

The only way Amtrak is going to go away is if they're unable to shift their offerings to appeal to a new generation. The Millenial generation is more likely to ride trains, so Amtrak just needs to make sure they're offering on-board products that support that market. Fresh food offerings, environmentally friendly offerings (reusable diningware would be a great start!,) free wi-fi, and comfortable seating are all things that would be relatively easy for Amtrak to do and probably not too offensive to the baby boomers.

No need for the flowers on the table, though.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 11, 2018)

jis post: a good idea!( and I'm still in favor of the Senior Discount As I am not Wealthy!)


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## jis (Feb 11, 2018)

Hey! personally I will happily take all the discounts I can get. But when I look at it taking myself and my own advantages out of the equation, what I see is what I posted.

Actually anyone getting a reasonable level of Social Security, Railroad Pension and/or other Government or Industry Pension is probably doing better financially than a typical student with no or minimal financial help from their parents. Just keep that in mind when thinking about Student Discounts.


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## JRR (Feb 11, 2018)

Today’s Seniors will pass away, however, as they do each day, a new group of those lucky enough to live so long, graduate to Senior status.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## neroden (Feb 11, 2018)

I have to agree that of the people I've met on Amtrak, the only ones who seemed to be really highly price-conscious were the youth. The student discount is probably advisable.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 11, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Valid points, but wouldn't your aims be better served then by lower overall pricing, rather than a discount that only some people have access to?
> 
> (as an aside, does the equipment still exist to run 18 car trains routinely?)


You can only lower your prices so much, particularly with Congress mandating maximums on discount while attempting to reduce the subsidy. This is going while costs are still climbing.

As for routinely operating 18 car trains, you probably couldn't do it these days....unless other trains ran with 1 car!







daybeers said:


> It's been very interesting to catch up on this thread. Thirdrail, you bring up some interesting points. Ridership does go up every year, though, so are you saying there has been less recently?
> 
> I'm also interested in the answer to if there is enough equipment to go around for the longer trains that you speak of, TR. Wouldn't longer consists cause even more issues at stations with short or medium-length platforms though?
> 
> ...


Ridership probably climbs every year, particularly since Amtrak still manages some of the state supported services and they are subsidized by the states. Long trains would require proper loading and proper planning....just like they did for years.

As for your second thought, this is the way Amtrak used to operate. There was plenty of walk up, last minute travel because prices were consistent. Even when you had the old "three bucket" reservation system, the buckets didn't change based upon how close to the the departure time you were. It change based upon train availability.

Additionally, Amtrak used to have discounts such as "Shopper's Excursion discounts" that were tailored to riders on certain trains, between certain city pairs on certain days of the week. There were round trip excursion fares. Indeed, a lot of the discounted fares used to be blacked out approaching major holiday in addition to every Friday and Sunday (typically 11a-7p).

It is easy enough to do if you're looking to ease the crunch.


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## akbrian (Feb 11, 2018)

I use the AAA discount for hotels, rental cars and until now, rail. The AAA travel website is still pretty good for trip planning of various types. Ive never seen AAA as anti-rail, more like pro-travel. I hate that this goes away now, as I was within a couple years of the old senior discount age. The rail, car rental, and hotel combo is a pretty viable one in my opinion.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 11, 2018)

Having read every post in this thread I still find myself supporting the student and NARP discounts. I'm less enthusiastic about the senior discount. Not because I don't think it helps but rather because I'm fairly certain that any senior discount which remains will simply follow the current scorched earth generation into the sunset like so many other social and financial benefits. I'm indifferent toward the AAA discount so long as AAA covers at least 50% of the cost.



gradstudentrailfan said:


> I think a neglected point on this thread is that Amtrak uses price buckets to tie train prices to demand. A low demand train is by definition already discounted for that day because it's still in the lowest price bucket.


This would be more relevant if congress hadn't created special restrictions on the maximum allowable deviation between the highest and lowest buckets. Amtrak's ability to precisely tie fares to widely varying levels of demand is somewhat clumsy and limited as a result. Which is part of the reason special fares and discounts remain important and necessary.



JRR said:


> Today’s Seniors will pass away, however, as they do each day, a new group of those lucky enough to live so long, graduate to Senior status.


Today "senior" typically refers to a pensioner or retiree. Soon it will refer to elderly employees too busy trying to earn enough money to make up for receding benefits and budget shortfalls to spend much time or money on sunset joyrides.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 12, 2018)

I believe there should be a Student Discount, because those who would travel by train and/or bus do not have the money that many other students. The amount of the Senior discount is minimal, but every dollar helps when planning a trip. !0% off rail fair and 10% off the hotel room can add up to a few meals on a week plus trip. The more people who belong to NARP the stronger the organization becomes and that benefits Amtrak. A question to ask is if it is Amtrak cutting off AAA or is it AAA that no longer wants to participate. I remember a hotel franchise owner telling me that he was afraid that the AARP discount was in trouble because the hotel chain and AARP could not agree on the contract. They did at the last minute, but this raises that question.


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## jis (Feb 12, 2018)

Maybe if it is problematic figuring out who is actually a student and who is not, one could consider doing a European style Youth Discount scheme which is purely age based and therefore easy to check and verify?


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 12, 2018)

Almost all College students have a photo ID which is an "Everything" card. Even the High Schools in our area require all students to have Photo ID's. It would easy to require the School photo ID.


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## neroden (Feb 12, 2018)

jis said:


> Maybe if it is problematic figuring out who is actually a student and who is not, one could consider doing a European style Youth Discount scheme which is purely age based and therefore easy to check and verify?


That would be fine. Non-students of college age are typically also dirt poor, and of course those under 18 are typically really skint.


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## Ryan (Feb 12, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Almost all College students have a photo ID which is an "Everything" card. Even the High Schools in our area require all students to have Photo ID's. It would easy to require the School photo ID.


What works in your area doesn't necessarily transfer nationwide. A great many HS students don't have a photo student ID.


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## seat38a (Feb 12, 2018)

I'm kind of whatever they are getting rid of this. The AAA discount generally becomes a nuissance on the the Surfliner if your in Business Class and need to make changes. If you buy a coach ticket with the discount, you can still jump on any train that departs 3 days after your purchase date but if your plan changes and you need to leave sooner, then you need to pay the discount back or get a talking to from the conductor. At least on the Surfliner, using the AAA discount really takes the flexibility out of what is a very lenient ticketing policy.


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## calwatch (Feb 12, 2018)

The student discount should have been a youth discount IMHO with a cutoff at age 25 or so. Too many grad students have student IDs which they have kept continuously. Overall I think they are just keeping the senior discount to avoid more political backlash - if Amtrak was an airline they would be offering no discounts as well, and Richard Anderson is an airline guy.


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## KnightRail (Feb 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Wow. This is tough. I find myself in the unenviable position of publicly disagree with two people that I normally wouldn't. But I feel this is too important to leave unmentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dont disagree with you, although what incentive do people have to book early and tie up their money, giving an interest free loan, for up to 11 months out if they can get the same low price all the time last minute. A caveat of making a price conscious reservation last minute is the need to be flexible. The price conscious traveler is competing with the business traveler who is willing to swipe that corporate card like its hot. These business travelers are often willing to travel at the full fare as time is money to them, and they are not spending their own money. A walk-up one-way Acela fare of ~$200 or Regional fare of ~$150 to or from NYP and they dont think twice about doing it. Not getting every last dollar out of corporate travel is leaving easy money on the table. Corporates willingness to pay high prices has unfortunately caused fares to become extremely overpriced for non-business travel. These prices most certainly drive away riders. The way for the non-business traveler to avoid the corporate surge is to travel when the business travelers do not. The low D bucket is often available for walk-up next train sales on off-peak trains. On the North end this means trains like 177, 178, 179, 67, Saturdays, etc. Of course this is only in regards to On-Corridor as Off-Corridor is a totally different animal. There is no reason that long distance trains are so short and demand is so weak other than extreme overpricing compared to the competition.


Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> > gradstudentrailfan said:
> ...


The question is where to set prices. Do you use the retail strategy like the department store Kohls where everything is 50% or more off all the time. Exaggerated example, say a full rail fare is $400. Then market it at 75% OFF! so the consumer is thinking they are getting a great deal saving $300 but in reality the fare is never sold at the full fare, its always on sale. Its a deceitful mind game but it works for Kohls. Another retailer is Bed Bath & Beyond. They totally flood the market with 20% off coupons, but their prices are all artificially inflated by about 20% expecting them to be couponed. CVS is the same. Their regular prices are sky high because they flood customers with Extracare coupons. Even after sales and couponing they still are charging higher prices than the big box retailers. Years back JC Penny tried the strategy of no sales, no coupons, same price everyday for everyone. It was a complete failure. Its all about the perception of getting a deal. Should high rail fares be maintained and discounting be expanded? Conventional retail strategy would say yes.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 13, 2018)

The general public believes in their minds that an items, no matter what quality they are purchasing, they expect the price to be the lowest and be a special deal. I have a neighbor who only buys the cheapest price he can find then complains and complains when he has problems. I pay more for better quality, have fewer issues, but he demands that even the cheapest should be the same as the most expensive. This mental attitude prevails in the travel industry, so somehow Amtrak has to get the highest fare they think passengers will pay, while at the same time giving passengers a good feeling they got a deal, whether it is over cost, or getting a good price making Sleeper affordable. Eliminate the discounts, which are minimal on some trips, and maybe put that budget into Sales to fill more seats. Airlines have had sales for certain routes at certain times for years.


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## AcrossTheOcean (Feb 13, 2018)

My suggestion for boosting Amtrak ridership is to have Amtrak fares come up as a flight when someone searches for a domestic US flight on expedia or other search engine.

First, it will put Amtrak on more people's radar. About a year ago, I saw an Amtrak advertisement of facebook claiming you could travel coast to coast for a certain amount, obviously coach seats and the lowest bucket. But a lot of people commented as if traveling across the continent on Amtrak had just been put on their bucket list. Amtrak isn't a mode of transportation that many US residents even think to consider when they plan to travel somewhere.

Second, it makes air travel Amtrak's "competition." For those looking at cost just as much if not more than at convenience, Amtrak is usually the better deal. There is another thread about the trip I am planning from SOB to WAS. Roomettes for two adults and two kids cost about the same as airfare.

As far as discounts, I wish that "child" was still defined as "person under age 15" instead of "person 12 and under." But I am used to German trains where kids 14 and under can ride almost any train for free if their parent or grandparent travels with them.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 14, 2018)

As they did with the Amtrak changes with the senior discount, student discount and the change in child fares, California will be reinstating the AAA discount for state-supported Amtrak services. Amtrak California is targeting having their AAA discount in place by the end of March.

Capitol Corridor


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## Anderson (Feb 15, 2018)

@Thirdrail7:
So, I have a few thoughts here:
(1) I feel what you're saying on limiting discounts, though to be honest I've found the mounting pricing differences in the airline industry to be dizzying almost to the point that I get nauseous. My concern would be that Amtrak would be more likely to clumsily price itself out of the last-minute business entirely. Also, having at least some sense of what the price range is going to be (e.g. that a last-minute roomette isn't going to randomly run $1000 to Florida because the computer got possessed) is advantageous. The problem is that when you refer to the problem of limiting discounts, if you /don't/ limit them then you de facto squeeze out last-minute flexibility. Then again, I've avoided "saver" fares and their previous incarnations because they are frequently not upgradable (and I've often got more upgrade cards than I know what to do with).

(2) I suspect that a lot of the "record ridership" is due to increasing short-to-mid-haul rider counts (and, of course, to packing a number of less-utilized state and corridor trains more crowded). The fact that several states /did/ get slugs of new cars in the late 1990s/early 2000s (and that the Acelas allowed some equipment to cascade elsewhere) didn't hurt...and of course, you've had VA extending several Regionals from WAS to Roanoke, Norfolk, and Richmond, which has packed a few hundred thousand more riders into the mix.

(3) On the NEC in particular, I really have to come back around and wonder if it wouldn't make sense to add some sort of "commuter class" service with a semi-fixed fare (probably a peak and an off-peak fare, or something similar). You could easily find a fare level that's modestly above what the commuter services charge but also below non-discounted standard coach fares. I also know that a few of us have mused about whether it would make sense for Amtrak to grab a few sets of NJT/MARC-style bilevels or other commuter equipment, add on a "standing buffet" in UK terms (e.g. it would sell food but you'd have to go back to your car) and run some "all the stops" trains with tickets at a discount. An extra 15-30 minutes' travel time for an unreserved seat on a high-density train for a guaranteed end-to-end $49/69 fare (note that covering the relevant portions of the Corridor on commuter tickets would run $38 and still leave you with a gap between somewhere in Delaware and Perryville, MD).

#3 is rather painful to me to think about, but I have to wonder if the trade in at least some class of service wouldn't be worth it in terms of adding ridership at more affordable prices without setting Congress's blasters to "whine". Going to a 34-inch seat pitch (still better than most of the airlines) would probably see Regional Coach cars go from 72 seats at present to somewhere in the ballpark of 80-86 seats (depending on precisely what the situation is with luggage racks and ADA seating requirements). Ramming that pitch down to 32 inches could get you a bit more density...but at that point you might also be looking at needing multiple business class cars or going to a de facto three-class model (e.g. Coach, Premium Coach, and Business).

Finally, (4): I'd like to see Amtrak keep the student discount, but it really shouldn't be tied to an independent membership card. I also remember being told a few years ago that the Student Advantage discount transitioned to online-only at the same time as they dropped it from 15% to 10% (something of a mild annoyance) and was no longer usable in conjunction with upgraded fares (which rendered it useless for me). I'd say that Amtrak should, if anything, look to make the discount a bit more aggressive (perhaps effectively putting it in line with saver fares) but also aggressively promote it and _not_ make it online-only.


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