# when the lights go out



## acelafan (Jul 29, 2009)

Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?


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## battalion51 (Jul 29, 2009)

There are certain places along the corridor that are designated dead spots. There are signs for these dead spots. Engineers know where these are and always have enough momentum behind them to get through the dead spot.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 29, 2009)

acelafan said:


> Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?


yes on NEC there are several phase breaks or phase gaps were a locomotive momentairy loses the power, prime exaples are cos cob bridge were a 90 foot gap exist for the bridge to be raised.

normally a train will just coast through such power interuptions but once in a while a locomotive has bad batteries and goes in emergency , so there will be need for a tow.


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## acelafan (Jul 29, 2009)

Cool, thanks for the replies. Always wondered about that.


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## Acela150 (Jul 29, 2009)

I notice this a lot on Regionals not Acela. Cause Acela has two pans up with the Regionals just the one or sometimes two. But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?


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## Gord (Jul 29, 2009)

Dutchrailnut said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?
> ...


There are also "section insulators" spaced at regular intervals that allow sections of overhead to be electrically isolated for maintenance, repair and emergencies. They may also be used where the feed from one substation ends and the next begins or at the doors of shops or carhouses to isolate the track within to protect workers.

Variations of these section insulators are used on light rail and streetcar operations as well. With operations using regenerative braking, provision has to be made to prevent a unit in regen mode from energizing a dead line if it is braking while entering the de-energized section.

I'm just a rail mechanic and I'm sure we have some electrical engineers out there who are able to provide a more detailed explanation.

Gord


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 30, 2009)

Acela150 said:


> I notice this a lot on Regionals not Acela. Cause Acela has two pans up with the Regionals just the one or sometimes two. But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?



The Pantographs on Acela are not connected, each power head is independent and only one of them supplies HEP at any time.

So Acela is effected by same power losses.

Section insulators do not drop the power, since they have same phasing and have a wire extender at each side of them, only thing you see is a small arc when a pantograph passes.


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## BLOND37 (Jul 30, 2009)

There was another thread about scary spots or something. Have to admit I always breath a sigh of relief when the lights and air come back on after a dead spot!


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## battalion51 (Aug 1, 2009)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > I notice this a lot on Regionals not Acela. Cause Acela has two pans up with the Regionals just the one or sometimes two. But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?
> ...


I believe the reason Acela doesn't drop the power is because they were built with a battery system that will hold the HEP for a few moments when you go through a phase change. With fixed trainsets, this is pretty easy to do. One of the few things they did right with Acela...


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## jis (Aug 1, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> I believe the reason Acela doesn't drop the power is because they were built with a battery system that will hold the HEP for a few moments when you go through a phase change. With fixed trainsets, this is pretty easy to do. One of the few things they did right with Acela...


Acelas do drop HVAC, but not lights, which suggest to me that they have some battery arrangement for lights only in each car. This is very common practice almost everywhere other than in North America. It is only in here that I have come across lighting systems in cars that are not supported by adequate battery backup to keep on for a considerable amount of time.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 2, 2009)

BLOND37 said:


> There was another thread about scary spots or something. Have to admit I always breath a sigh of relief when the lights and air come back on after a dead spot!


Having ridden on NJTransits electric engine-hauled trains all my life, I'm so used to it I barely even notice it anymore.


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## AlanB (Aug 2, 2009)

Acela150 said:


> But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?


Regionals can be pulled by either and AEM-7 or an HHP-8 to Boston.


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## jis (Aug 2, 2009)

Acela150 said:


> I notice this a lot on Regionals not Acela. Cause Acela has two pans up with the Regionals just the one or sometimes two. But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?


As mentioned by Dutch, only one of the two pans in Acela supplies HEP. The two power heads are electrically isolated from each other. Otherwise there would be havoc when one pan is on one phase and other on a different one as the train passes a phase gap.

Acleas just have more ergonomically designed battery backup for the car lights than the Amfleets do.

The DC and AC in AEM-7s refers to the type of motor and drive system that it has and not the power that it collects from the catenary. All of them - irrespective of DC or AC are capable of operating under 11kV 25Hz, 12kV 60Hz and 25kV 60Hz AC catenary systems. So yes, all of them can go to Boston.


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## acelafan (Aug 2, 2009)

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > I notice this a lot on Regionals not Acela. Cause Acela has two pans up with the Regionals just the one or sometimes two. But do DC AEM-7's go up to BOS or just the AC's?
> ...


What is the reason for the differing voltages/cycles on the NEC? Purely historical? Hypothetically speaking, if Amtrak were to extend electrification down to say, Richmond VA for higher-speed rail, what electrical specifications would like they be likely to choose for the catenary? Would they choose the same specs for other areas of the country or do several variables come into play?


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## jis (Aug 2, 2009)

acelafan said:


> What is the reason for the differing voltages/cycles on the NEC? Purely historical? Hypothetically speaking, if Amtrak were to extend electrification down to say, Richmond VA for higher-speed rail, what electrical specifications would like they be likely to choose for the catenary? Would they choose the same specs for other areas of the country or do several variables come into play?


Differences are purely historical. Any new electrification will use the 25kV 60Hz AC system, just as was done New Haven to Boston.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Aug 4, 2009)

jis said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > What is the reason for the differing voltages/cycles on the NEC? Purely historical? Hypothetically speaking, if Amtrak were to extend electrification down to say, Richmond VA for higher-speed rail, what electrical specifications would like they be likely to choose for the catenary? Would they choose the same specs for other areas of the country or do several variables come into play?
> ...


Is there any reason Amtrak can't switch the NEC to 25kV 60Hz AC along the whole route as electrical equipment is replaced?


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## AlanB (Aug 4, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > acelafan said:
> ...


Start with money, then move to the fact that it's not like one can just convert one small section at a time. You pretty much have to convert the entire corridor at once. Add to that equation that you've still got Metro North in the middle.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Start with money, then move to the fact that it's not like one can just convert one small section at a time. You pretty much have to convert the entire corridor at once. Add to that equation that you've still got Metro North in the middle.


I think the real issue is money. Also it seems to me that of the various possible combinations the one that MNRR has chosen probably makes the best use of any available money, i.e. convert to commercial frequency and constant tension. Commercial frequency so that it takes Amtrak out of the business of maintaining its own conversion facilities and constant tension to enable higher speed and require fewer heat related speed restrictions. Not going to 25kV avoids the problem of dealing with creating additional clearance in tight areas which could cost a pretty penny in civil engineering work.

Note that even without changing the voltage it is taking MNRR over 15 years to complete the conversion of their section. Strictly speaking the corridor is electrically segmented and the conversion could be done segment by segment. If voltage is not changed such a method will work even in areas where Arrow IIIs and Silverliners operate, which do not have automatic tap changin facilities to allow automatic changeover from 12kV to 25kV and back.


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## acelafan (Aug 4, 2009)

jis said:


> Note that even without changing the voltage it is taking MNRR over 15 years to complete the conversion of their section.


So MNRR will have constant tension cat from end-to-end in their domain of the NEC? Will Amtrak be able to capitalize on that improvement for faster speed or will other upgrades need to occur first? Granted I am sure the speed increases wouldn't be huge, but shave a minute here, a minute there and it all adds up.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2009)

acelafan said:


> So MNRR will have constant tension cat from end-to-end in their domain of the NEC? Will Amtrak be able to capitalize on that improvement for faster speed or will other upgrades need to occur first? Granted I am sure the speed increases wouldn't be huge, but shave a minute here, a minute there and it all adds up.


AFAIK no speed changes are planned for the MNRR section of the NEC, and yes MNRR will have CT catenary end to end when they are done.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2009)

jis said:


> Note that even without changing the voltage it is taking MNRR over 15 years to complete the conversion of their section. Strictly speaking the corridor is electrically segmented and the conversion could be done segment by segment. If voltage is not changed such a method will work even in areas where Arrow IIIs and Silverliners operate, which do not have automatic tap changin facilities to allow automatic changeover from 12kV to 25kV and back.


Someone told me that switching an Arrow from Pennsy cat to DLW cat frequencies is as simple as flicking a switch, but that the switch is located somewhere where only MMC can get to it. They said that hooking up a switch would be simple and then carped about why NJT hasn't done it. I am uncharacteristically using "they say" because they are not a technically oriented person, and I seriously doubt that it can be done this simply... NJT isn't dumb enough to not do something that simple for flexibility if it was, indeed, that simple. Does anyone know?


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## jis (Aug 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Someone told me that switching an Arrow from Pennsy cat to DLW cat frequencies is as simple as flicking a switch, but that the switch is located somewhere where only MMC can get to it. They said that hooking up a switch would be simple and then carped about why NJT hasn't done it. I am uncharacteristically using "they say" because they are not a technically oriented person, and I seriously doubt that it can be done this simply... NJT isn't dumb enough to not do something that simple for flexibility if it was, indeed, that simple. Does anyone know?


It is not the frequency change that requires anything to be done. Arrows work fine on both frequencies (unlike the new M-8s, which will become bonfires if the HV CB does not work when someone tries to operate on 25Hz). Arrows need the a HV transformer tap to be changed manually to move them from 11kV to 25kV. The current tap position is documented on the side of the car by a text marker at the floor level. Additional equipment could be installed to automate this, but NJT has chosen not to install such.


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## AlanB (Aug 4, 2009)

jis said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > So MNRR will have constant tension cat from end-to-end in their domain of the NEC? Will Amtrak be able to capitalize on that improvement for faster speed or will other upgrades need to occur first? Granted I am sure the speed increases wouldn't be huge, but shave a minute here, a minute there and it all adds up.
> ...


The CT issue (along with the tilting issue) has long been one of the excuses used by MN to keep Amtrak at a lower speed, so that MN doesn't **** off its rich customers by tossing a MN express behind a slower moving MN local to get the express out of Amtrak's way. So it will be interesting to see what excuse they come up with once the CT issue goes away.

But I'm sure that they'll find one.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2009)

The simplest solution is to simply have Amtrak condemn the Metro-North portion of the NEC and buy it.


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## Dutchrailnut (Aug 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The simplest solution is to simply have Amtrak condemn the Metro-North portion of the NEC and buy it.


Why???? its better maintained and a free ride for Amtrak, as state of NY and CT incure all cost.

Amtrak does not even incure trackage fees or dispatching cost.


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## Dutchrailnut (Aug 4, 2009)

acelafan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Note that even without changing the voltage it is taking MNRR over 15 years to complete the conversion of their section.
> ...


No plans to upgrade speed, the Catenay is only a minor problem, the main speed issue is curves and massive speed restrictions like portchester curve and all bridges.

Even if track speed over all were to be upgraded from 70 to 100 a train could only gain 6 minutes from CP216 to New Haven after all speed resitcions are taken at set speeds.

To raise speed on the bridges the bridges need replacement, since bridges like Walk are located in curve even a new bridge would be 45 mph.

also by Raising speeds the signal blocks need to be lenghtened (to max braking distance for new speed) thus decreasing the amount of trains MNCR could run.

Yes MNCR is studying the upgrade to ACSES cab signaling but untill all M2/4/6 are retired they can not implement such a upgrade, yes the M-8 will have ACSES.


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## battalion51 (Aug 7, 2009)

Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?


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## jis (Aug 7, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?


Purely from memory I believe ACSES Phases II and III do and neither MNRR nor CSX does. I will have to dig out the papers on ACSES to check exactly which feature is part of which phase in ACSES.

The critical test is whether the system allows a signal at danger to be passed at low speed without explicit permission from the automatic system or not. I believe all classical ATS systems allow passage below 20mph or thereabouts and hence do not meet PTC requirements.

Naturally, since this is all from memory I am happy to be corrected while I check real sources to verify.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 7, 2009)

jis said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?
> ...


Does that mean that if there is a signal fault, the train has to sit and wait for it to be repaired?


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## battalion51 (Aug 7, 2009)

Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.


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## jis (Aug 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Does that mean that if there is a signal fault, the train has to sit and wait for it to be repaired?


No. The system and dispatcher is able to communicate with the train's control system to allow it to do certain things to work around signal faults - sort of like an electronic Form D. That is where Phase III comes in which adds the radio communication based stuff as an overlay over the transponders enable this. The transponder based stuff mainly provides speed enforcement (at finer granularity than is possible with signals), distance to next signal info to the control system on the train and enforces absolute stop at stop signals.

Of course pre-Phase III regular (somewhat modified procedure) Form-Ds can be used along the line that Battalion describes.


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## Dutchrailnut (Aug 8, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.


Under present operating rules, you can only operate a train where cab signal/atc has failed enroute, a train without cab signal/atc can not operate on NEC or any of cab signal equiped feeder lines.

The train operating with failed cab signal has to be govered by a absolute block type signal like a C board and can not operate at speeds higher than stated in operating manual.

On MNCR that would be 59 mph max prepared to stop at each interlocking.


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## Dutchrailnut (Aug 8, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?


Yes ACSES is a PTC system as per Government requirement, the current MNCR system is not, but will probably be grandfathered.

Same with NJT's system, I don't believe they ever got their immitation ACSES to work.

So new or rebuild systems need a upgrade if being put to use in or after 2015.

It looks as Danbury branch signal system will need a form of ACSES to comply


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## battalion51 (Aug 9, 2009)

Dutchrailnut said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.
> ...


You're right. Reading that I remember that it's a caveat that I just didn't recall off the top of my head. And correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to have two non-conforming aspects in a row before you can declare it a failure? And it seems like it'd be pretty hard for there to be too many non-conforming aspects on the Mets considering y'all have all of two absolute signals (stop and proceed cab) :lol: .


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## Dutchrailnut (Aug 9, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > battalion51 said:
> ...


Cabsignal/atc failure can be may things including , continous alarm/ failure of alarm, aspect dark, or multi aspects lit, non-conformity between wayside and onboard signals, speed failures, overspeed, flipping etc etc.


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## Guest_Bill_* (Aug 10, 2009)

acelafan said:


> Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?


At sub stations and swithing stations there are phase brakes to seperate two sources of comercial power. phase breaks contain dead sections which are marked by a sighn posted on a cat pole so that the engineer knows the location. In the dead section the wires are configured so that the pan is not in contact with live catenary for about 40 or 50 feet or so. This is so the two scouces of comercial power don't meet and go kaboom. Very very rarely does this incapacitate a train. If a train is sitting "dead in tthe water" in a dead section it is probably because the engineer is an dope. Another reason for a train losing cat power other than eqiptment failure would be if there was a tripping on the circuit. The system has an automatic reclose feature so if something does come in contact with the wire it will reclose the circuit twice this blasting the foreigne object (tree, kite string, human) 3 times with 25k and hopefully burning it off the wire. If that doesn't work they sectionalize the problem and hopefuly the train is clear of the problem section. If it is they send a rescue engine to pull the train out and a couple linemen (me) to find the problem and get the juice a flowing again thus making said choo choo infuriatingly late for its passengers. Anywho, in the northeast corridor in ri and ma there are dead sections in richmond, warwick, norton, and sharon. I hope this info was helpful, trust me, I do this crap for a living.


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## acelafan (Aug 11, 2009)

Guest_Bill_* said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?
> ...


Thank you for your first hand insight and knowledge. Sounds like an interesting job -- of course it's no fun in the snow and cold! About 20 years ago I was on a MNRR train on the Hudson line and the train hit some debris on the track from someone throwing stuff over a bridge. Our train became disabled with the emergency brakes stuck on. They tried to tow us to the next station by another loco but that one reportedly had its engine burned out dragging a train with locked wheels after about 5 minutes. So then we were transferred to a rescue train right there on the tracks. I don't really know the whole story since I was only about 14 at the time. Anyways, ever since then I've been interested in trains (especially electric ones) and the NEC in general. Thankfully I've experienced no other incidents like that!


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## Guest_bill_* (Aug 12, 2009)

acelafan said:


> Guest_Bill_* said:
> 
> 
> > acelafan said:
> ...



My job most of the time isn't that interesting. Right now all my time is spent stringing up wire so they can run electrics up track 3 between readville and boston, that's a big project. Other than that my job basicly concists of making sure people don't electrocute themselves while working around our wires in the summer, spring, and fall. Then knocking icicles off of bridges in the winter so they don't explode (I have had that happen right over my head on a couple of occasions, its not fun) or if a pan inverts and rips down the wire, we go out and fix it. All in all its a good job but the hours suck seeing as its all overnights and its dangerous. But hey, what fun is life without a little element of danger right? Any questions about the overhead lines, feel free to ask.


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## jis (Aug 12, 2009)

Guest_bill_* said:


> My job most of the time isn't that interesting. Right now all my time is spent stringing up wire so they can run electrics up track 3 between readville and boston, that's a big project.


Thanks for that piece of info. I had been wondering if work had started on that piece of unfinished project. Last time I passed by there it seemed that something was happening. Glad to learn that it is finally happening


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