# Another luxury (private car on Amtrak) rail service?



## John Bredin (Oct 7, 2020)

A travel-related email I read today referred to a new luxury rail service starting next year, using cars from the 1930s through the 1960s. When I clicked on the link, it led me to this outfit. Link.

It's a bit vague because their plans are on-hold during Covid, but this seems like another luxury rail service proposing to semi-regularly run private cars at the end of Amtrak trains. See this page in particular. 

I was a bit surprised because I hadn't seen any reference here to this enterprise.


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## RichieRich (Oct 7, 2020)

Wow. You took me back to my American Orient Express (gone thru a few iterations) that I used to take back & forth from DC to Chicago in the ol' daze! LOL, from the baby lamb chops, piano bar, coat & tie required to heat & serve box dinners, shirts & shoes required today.


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 7, 2020)

This is interesting, especially since they are promising two-level cars, probably former Santa Fe high-level cars. One car is apparently ready and has been approved for Amtrak service. This is all completely out of the blue. I'm very surprised about the rehab of the high level car. How did this happen without any railfan gossip?


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## jiml (Oct 7, 2020)

Paging @Seaboard92. He will likely know what's going on here.


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## AFS1970 (Oct 7, 2020)

Looks interesting, I wonder how they plan on accessing the trains as they stay overnight in a city. I can imagine a station willing to give 24 hour access via tying up a platform, but I can't imagine paying that much for the trip and having to walk though a trainyard to go to bed. 
I also wonder how many meals are included, as it seems to be operating in a similar format to a bus tour. So will there be an option to return for a meal or will you be totally on your own in a city and only eat on board if the train is in motion.


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## Qapla (Oct 7, 2020)

Interesting - too bad they can't have their own engine instead of relying on Amtrak to pull them around

I'm afraid my pockets are not deep enough for a "Journey"


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 7, 2020)

jiml said:


> Paging @Seaboard92. He will likely know what's going on here.




I actually know nothing about whats going on here. But I will get to the bottom of it here shortly. I wonder if they need a car to lodge their crew or a budget sleeper. 

Looking at their website the sleeper looks like it's the Berlin which is a former American Orient Express Car. I'll have to ask Kevin if he knows anything about that. That being said there should be plenty of AOE cars still around I don't know the dispositions of them all. I know Grand Canyon Railroad owns a lot of them. 

I can tell they aren't using a traditional diner either because I've never seen a layout like that. I honestly don't think it will work well because you need a much larger kitchen to deal with five cars worth of passengers. You can cook for thirty in a standard PV kitchen but it's difficult. But five cars in a small kitchen just shoot me now please. 

The picture of the display car they are showing looks like one of Ben Butterworth's display car. I'll have to ask Ben if he knows about the image of his car on their website. 

The Hi-Level looks interesting. Again the only person I know with these is Ben Butterworth. It is odd to me that they are showing on the diagram having an elevator in the car. That is something that has never been attempted, and it's in a really small space that I don't think it would fit to be honest. So that is rather odd. 

It will definitely be interesting to watch them try and bring it to market. I strongly doubt they will however. It is also interesting that a lot of the rolling stock photos they have are of Rapido model trains or cars I know the owners of.


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## joelkfla (Oct 7, 2020)

Qapla said:


> I'm afraid my pockets are not deep enough for a "Journey"


Yeah, really -- over $10,000 for a single.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 7, 2020)

AFS1970 said:


> Looks interesting, I wonder how they plan on accessing the trains as they stay overnight in a city. I can imagine a station willing to give 24 hour access via tying up a platform, but I can't imagine paying that much for the trip and having to walk though a trainyard to go to bed.
> I also wonder how many meals are included, as it seems to be operating in a similar format to a bus tour. So will there be an option to return for a meal or will you be totally on your own in a city and only eat on board if the train is in motion.



That isn't always the case for instance I'll name some cities where you aren't in the yard. Washington, DC (Track 30, or Track 10), Boston, MA, Seattle, WA, Portland, OR, Denver, CO, and Miami, FL are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. 

Looking at their first routing Texas and Louisiana I'll give a run down of the layover location. 

Fort Worth, TX I believe there is room in the station for the cars to be either on the platform because Amtrak only ever tends to use one track of the two available to them at a time. They could also be put on the midday storage track for the Heartland Flyer as well. 

San Antonio, TX: You'll be parked where they leave the cut cars for the Eagle that spend the week there for the one day the Sleeper goes to LAX, and an arriving sleeper doesn't arrive. 

Houston, TX: Has a private car track right next to the station. Patrick Henry keeps his two cars there for a large chunk of the year, or did in the past. I think they are in Kansas City now. 



Qapla said:


> Interesting - too bad they can't have their own engine instead of relying on Amtrak to pull them around
> 
> I'm afraid my pockets are not deep enough for a "Journey"



Actually relying on Amtrak probably makes this cheaper for them. The amount of insurance required to run on the freight railroads is very expensive, and there are very few insurers who offer that level. I believe Lloyds of London still does however. But I don't know the cost of it, but they would have to be running fairly regularly and have good margins to even think about that. Even the American Orient Express relied on Amtrak locomotives when they ran partially for the insurance, and it is more expensive to maintain locomotives than cars. 

What they are doing is following a similar business model of the American Orient Express's original incarnation as the American European Express by operating a cut of five cars on the rear of Amtrak. 

I do hope they can find a good PV manager because I strongly doubt that their venture will be successful due to a poor proof of concept route in Texas and Louisana, and I think they are really underestimating the cost and demand. 

That being said I know of a perfect route that would work hitting multiple western national parks. And if they would be willing to pay me for my time and opinion I would be happy to grant it.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 7, 2020)

The other way you can tell they are planning on being on the rear of Amtrak is mentioned on their page. When they talk about sometimes crew sleeping space will be available for purchase, and the crew will be put up in the Amtrak sleepers for the segment instead if overnight. Again this looks like someone trying to do a cool product, but has little to no practical experience in the industry.


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## AFS1970 (Oct 9, 2020)

It seems like a logical product to try and create. The format is similar to bus tours or even river cruises. It might even have something over river cruises in that often where they dock is not near the attractions they visit. A train station might be in a better location in some cities.


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## railiner (Oct 9, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> That isn't always the case for instance I'll name some cities where you aren't in the yard. Washington, DC (Track 30, or Track 10), Boston, MA, Seattle, WA, Portland, OR, Denver, CO, and Miami, FL are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.


Miami? The Amtrak station? I wouldn't call that location much better than being in a 'yard'....


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## railiner (Oct 9, 2020)

While I would like to see this enterprise succeed, I am very skeptical over its doing so....
The part about selling 'time shares', kind of raises a red flag to me. Wasn't there a company trying to sell shares in a luxury train operation between Boston and Montreal, a few years ago? That didn't go very far...
Has Amtrak relaxed its rule about switching out private cars at intermediate points? Without that ability, the new operation would be quite limited...


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## jiml (Oct 9, 2020)

railiner said:


> While I would like to see this enterprise succeed, I am very skeptical over its doing so....
> The part about selling 'time shares', kind of raises a red flag to me. Wasn't there a company trying to sell shares in a luxury train operation between Boston and Montreal, a few years ago? That didn't go very far...


That sounds vaguely familiar. Was this part of the private "Montrealer" proposal maybe 20 years ago? IIRC a Quebec businessman was trying to sell shares in a private train that would operate on CP (ex-D&H) overnight to points in the US. It didn't really replicate the Montrealer since it didn't serve Vermont.


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## Palmetto (Oct 9, 2020)

If you talk to the folks at American Orient Express and Pullman Rail Journeys, it might become clearer to see if this venture will be successful or not.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 9, 2020)

railiner said:


> While I would like to see this enterprise succeed, I am very skeptical over its doing so....
> The part about selling 'time shares', kind of raises a red flag to me. Wasn't there a company trying to sell shares in a luxury train operation between Boston and Montreal, a few years ago? That didn't go very far...
> Has Amtrak relaxed its rule about switching out private cars at intermediate points? Without that ability, the new operation would be quite limited...



I don't know of the one you are talking about but I know of a man who tried selling timeshares in his private car which is a former VIA Rail Park Car. He was going to use the income from that to pay for the interior renovation and the Amtrak certification of his car. That was over 15 years ago if I recall right and the car still isn't Amtrak certified. I would know I thought about buying it recently and made an offer. But I would never accept the insanely high over value for that car that was replied. I'm happy with what I have, it just would have been nice icing on the cake. 



Palmetto said:


> If you talk to the folks at American Orient Express and Pullman Rail Journeys, it might become clearer to see if this venture will be successful or not.



Pullman Rail Journeys and the American Orient Express were really two separate products while similar but no where near the same. PRJ operated on the rear of Amtrak, whereas AOE operated mostly as a stand alone charter train on it's own schedule, and most of the time off route. 

PRJ was mostly brought down by things outside of it as far as the overall health of the company that was fielding it. Had the rest of the IPH family been healthy PRJ very well could still be operating today. 

AOE on the other matter was vastly different. Their big struggle was the 2008 Great Recession which sunk them. Had they stuck with the two trips that made them the most money they actually stood a decent chance of surviving. Had they stuck with the Great Northwest and Rockies, and National Parks of the West I think they could have weathered the storm a bit better. Instead of running up debt on the transcontinental trip, or running on the east coast in the spring time. Their other problem was they restricted the capacity to such a small number they had to charge higher prices. Had they used regular 10/6s and other more normal railcars with higher capacities they might have faired better. I want to say they had five or six cars on each train that weren't revenue producers. Something like a train works better when you have an economy of scale to work with. Lower prices mean more riders, and with a larger capacity you can equal the money of fewer passengers or exceed it. And it allows your product to be more achievable for the mass market. 

For my family it was do we want to go to Europe, or ride some fancy train across the USA. Europe won that round, it cost the same amount and the trip to Europe was three weeks vs one week on a train. That being said I wish I had gotten to ride the AOE more than I did. As I did get a small ride from SAV-CHS once when I was 10.


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## Palmland (Oct 9, 2020)

Seaboard, your comment prompted me to look through old photos. Took this in 2006 when AOE was parked in Savannah. No ride, but did get to do a walk through as it was being serviced. It was great and I do wish it had succeeded. I'm sure reasons you cite were its downfall. I think some of these promoters feel the need to have over the top equipment and amenities. I'm happy with good food, service, and comfortable accommodations where everything works. Of course a dome and observation help too!

And Savannah is another good location for a special train to tie up. While its not downtown, the station is nice and in a safe area with good servicing facilties, since the Palmetto turns there. An uber ride will get you to the historic downtown attractions.


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## Brian Battuello (Oct 9, 2020)

I just want to ride around in James West's private steam train for a few weeks. Never was clear how he got his track clearances, but I guess being a government agent helped.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 9, 2020)

Palmland said:


> Seaboard, your comment prompted me to look through old photos. Took this in 2006 when AOE was parked in Savannah. No ride, but did get to do a walk through as it was being serviced. It was great and I do wish it had succeeded. I'm sure reasons you cite were its downfall. I think some of these promoters feel the need to have over the top equipment and amenities. I'm happy with good food, service, and comfortable accommodations where everything works. Of course a dome and observation help too!
> 
> And Savannah is another good location for a special train to tie up. While its not downtown, the station is nice and in a safe area with good servicing facilties, since the Palmetto turns there. An uber ride will get you to the historic downtown attractions.



Savannah is one of the best locations to tie up a special train without hindering operations. So is Jacksonville but it doesn't have as many nice things in downtown like Savannah. In Charleston, SC they tied up on Palmetto Railways on the former US Navy Base down there. 

The problem most of these promoters forget is luxury isn't the ultimate selling point. If you have good food, good service, good activities, and comfortable accommodations you have a winning product. Look at VIA Rails's Canadian which as much as I hate to say it is a tourist train. It has good food that isn't gourmet (as that does turn some people off), VIA offers fantastic service that I would say is up there with most PV owners, and lastly you have decent activities. The AOE had a grand piano where they had a classical pianist playing whereas VIA has a local musician with a guitar playing. 

What makes the local musician better is they oftentimes play popular music that the audience likes to hear and can sing a long with. It's fun and it is incredibly memorable. Whereas just background piano music while classy is not really memorable. Then VIA has other things like wine tastings, beer tastings, trivia games, etc.... The biggest difference is AOE stopped for the day so passengers could do sightseeing. 

The best route in my opinion they had was "The National Parks of the West" 
Here is the basics of the routing. 

Day 1: Albuquerque, NM where they did a welcome aboard reception. 
Day 2: Santa Fe, NM where they had the option of gallery and museum tours. Geared at art and dining it appears. 
Day 3: Rail Day between Santa Fe and Grand Canyon apparently in daylight. This would be on the Southwest Chief route. 
Day 4: Grand Canyon National Park (South Rim)
Day 5: Las Vegas, NV: Which is listed as having three options a on your own day, the Hoover Dam, or visiting Valley of Fire State Park. I'm sure this was a popular stop with the target demographic. 
Day 6: Zion National Park or Bryce Canyon National Park from Cedar City, UT. Pick one or the other based on your interests. 
Day 7: Salt Lake City, UT with tours of the city or the Great Salt Lake. 
Day 8: Yellowstone National Park
Day 9: Grand Teton National Park
Day 10: Final day at Grand Teton National Park

The Second Best routing was the "Great Northwestern National Parks" 
Day 1: Seattle, WA welcome reception
Day 2: Mt. Rainier National Park tour on the Road to Paradise. 
Day 3: Rail Day either over Stevens Pass or the Columbia River Gorge depending on freight traffic the train could go either way. 
Day 4: Glacier National Park: A guided tour over the Going to Sun Road. 
Day 5: Missoula, MT a historic tour of homes, Bitterroot Valley tour
Day 6: Helena, MT a visit to the state capitol and a river boat tour. 
Day 7: Yellowstone National Park
Day 8: Grand Teton National Park
Day 9: Fly Home from Jackson Hole, WY

Had the AOE Stuck to these two routings and had a lower price point they would have been far more successful. To further prove my point I'll analyze their operation more in depth in the next post.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 9, 2020)

Post 2: Analyzing the American Orient Express

Note I am basing this information based on a consist listing I found online for one of these routes under the AOE ownership. 
-Locomotives
-2 Crew Cars
-Bar Harbor (8 Grand Suites, 1 Single Bedroom)
-Vienna (2 Presidential Suites, 7 Vintage Pullman)
-Santa Fe (No Information Available)
-Charleston (8 Grand Suites, 1 Single Bedroom)
-Seattle (Club Car)
-Chicago (Diner)
-Zurich (Diner)
-Copper Canyon (Full Dome)
-Montreal (9 Vintage Pullman)
-Paris (2 Presidential, 2 Parlor Suites, 4 Single Bedrooms)
-Denver (8 Grand Suites, 1 Single Bedroom)
-Savannah (8 Grand Suites, 1 Single Bedroom)
-New York (Observation)

So of your 15 car train, 2 cars are reserved for crew, and 5 cars are non revenue producing, meaning a total of 7 cars or 46 percent of your train isn't generating you any revenue but still has the same fixed costs to operate. I will say there is a place for things like diners, domes, lounges, and observations because it's important for marketing. My business partner and I were talking last night about how including free coffee on a commuter service would entice people to pay for a private commuter lounge car because people would tabulate the average cost of what they pay in coffee and decide it is a good deal if we included it. I concur with that thought so I do believe that service can be a selling point. Just don't let the illusion of grand service keep you from making money. The prices I am using come from the National Parks of the West Tour for 2009 the last year ever marketed.

So on this above consist you have the following rooms. 
-32 Grand Suites: Sleeps 2 ($8,550 Per Person)
-4 Presidential Suites: Sleeps 2 ($8,160 Per Person)
-8 Single Bedrooms: Sleeps 1 ($7,250)
-16 Vintage Pullman: Sleeps 2 ($5,950 Per Person)

So based on these figures here is your income on a sold out train. 

-64 Grand Suite Passengers: $547,200 
-8 Presidential Suite Passengers: $65,280
-8 Single Bedroom Passengers: $58,000
-32 Vintage Pullman Passengers: $190,400
-112 Total Passengers. Total revenue of $860,880

But of that revenue a sizable chunk is going away to pay Amtrak for the locomotives, crew, fuel, and the milage charge Amtrak accesses for a charter move. Let's base it on what the Amtrak charge used to be for New River Train which was $1.00 a mile (it has since gone way up). You are hauling 15 cars so $15 per mile. The milage was 1,833 Miles. So figure that is about $27,495 just for the cars. I can't tell you what the other Amtrak costs were but lets just say it cost $100,000 (Including Car milage) to run the train. That is 11 percent of your revenue going to Amtrak. 

Factor in you are feeding the passengers the following meals. Using methods taught to me by Chris at New River Train for food planning. 

-9 Breakfasts: Budget $2,240 Per Meal
-8 Lunches: Budget $2,800 Per Meal
-9 Dinners: Budget $3,360 Per Meal

So that totals out to the following. 
Breakfast: $20,160
Lunch: $22,400
Dinner: $30,240
Total: $72,800

So food is 8 Percent of your revenue. 

Now lets get into staffing being a luxury train I would think they have one steward per car. So lets go into the jobs shall we. 
-8 Stewards at $200 per day or $1,600 per trip (remember they go on a bus from Day 8)
-7 Lounge Attendants (rough guess on what I would use for a luxury product) also at $200 per day or $1,600 per day.
-1 Chef at $400 per day or $3,200 per Trip
-5 Sous Chefs at $300 per day or $2,400 per trip. 
-8 Servers for the two diners at $200 per day, or $1,600 Per Trip
-1 Mechanical at $400 per day or $1,600 per trip. 

And I'm sure I'm forgetting some other positions for management and elsewhere but this will work for this non academic academic example. 
So your staff cost by type of staff is. 
-Stewards: $12,800
-Lounge Attendants: $11,200
-Chef: $3,200
-Sous Chef: $12,000
-Severs: $12,800
-Mechanical: $1,600
Total: $53,600

So staffing in this incomplete picture is 6 Percent of your revenue

Then lets take in off train activities. 
Lets just say they took a 56 passenger charter bus for easy figurings. Which means at every stop they need exactly two buses to carry everybody. 

There are a total of 6 different bus tours listed in the itinerary that was marketed. Which means you need a max of 12 buses for each trip. A rough average for a charter bus is $1,500 per day. Which means we are spending $3,000 for each charter bus tour day. Then we need to factor in admission fees so lets just throw an even $200 in there which should cover a decent amount. 

So off train activities cost $19,200 total. Or 2 percent of your revenue. 

Now comes the real fun part back office costs. 

Back office consisting of management, booking engines, HR, marketing, insurance, and maintenance on the cars. I don't have to tell you how expensive maintaining railcars is but it is very costly I would know first hand. I can't estimate these charges especially for one trip because the advantage to running multiple trips is you can spread this cost across multiple runs. This is a fixed cost attributed yearly. 

So to recap what we know so far. 
Revenue: $860,880
Amtrak: $100,000 or 11 percent 
Food: $72,800 or 8 Percent
Staffing: $53,600 or 6 Percent
Off Train Activities: $19,200 or 2 Percent. 

So your total profit not counting back office costs comes to. 
$615,200

Now this isn't a true picture because we don't know what the Back Office Costs come to. 

Now to critique their business plan now that we know more about the costs/profits. 

I would say their largest problem was each car when you count the non revenue producing cars only had 7.2 passengers. That is an abnormally low number for a train. Keep in mind a 10/6 sleeps 22, an all double room car sleeps 24. If I were them I would abolish 1 diner, and 1 club car and replace them with two higher capacity revenue cars. It would drop your staffing costs because instead of having 9 employees you would have 2 for those cars. You are saving money by cutting the staff wages and making more money by having more capacity. The more capacity you have the lower the price can go. 

The other problem I see is you have to have fairly full trains to make money considering we use a 40 percent load in the industry to determine our profitability. So on this train that would be 44 passengers. And at the price of the tickets it was difficult for them to fill trains. I could see them running trains that were either marginally profitable, or slightly loosing money as the equipment has to get positioned for the next run. 

Of course you have to factor in too that some of their tours were less popular and less likely to sell out a la the Grand Transcontinental that went from Los Angeles, CA to Washington, DC to reposition for springtime in the Antebellum South. And at the prices they were charging for that run it is no wonder it was one of the lower runs in terms of ridership and load factor. 

To sum up all of my points into something short and concise would be this. 

1. They charged too high for the domestic market, and by not having it accessible to the middle class they priced themselves out of existence. 
2. Their margins were not sustainable without a decent load factor which oftentimes was unobtainable for trips that were too costly. Especially trips like the Great Transcontinental. 
3. They had too low of a capacity for the overall train. Capacity is key it allows you to offer lower prices, and have higher margins. 
4. Too many non revenue producing cars to revenue producers. 

I'm sure all of you weren't expecting this length of a novel basically. But once I get started analyzing something I like to make the research as complete as I can. I am a detail oriented freak and I love researching things. Hopefully one day these talents will find a use where they aren't wasted like doing free research analysis of a former tourist train. I really enjoyed writing this though. I look forward to the feedback. 

Total time allotted to typing this up: 19:00 ET-23:00 ET so four hours. 

And honestly those four hours flew by because I was having fun. 

Also can we please bump the character limit on AU up, this is like the 6th time this month I've bumped up against it and had to split posts up. I love details, I thrive on details, so I oftentimes forget about 10,000 characters.


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 10, 2020)

AOE's business plan was based on snobbery. So they had these "grand suites" and upper class dining and lounging. This formula has worked in Europe, but apparently there's no market for it in North America. As Seaboard pointed out, his family could spend three weeks in Europe for the same price as a week on the AOE.
Pullman Rail Journeys used old Pullman cars that were just like the 1940's. Only railfans had any interest in this and railfans aren't a big enough market to sustain such an operation. 
Rocky Mountaineer has succeeded based on daytime running and overnights in hotels. They are still incredibly expensive, though.


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 10, 2020)

AOE's business plan was based on snobbery. So they had these "grand suites" and upper class dining and lounging. This formula has worked in Europe, but apparently there's no market for it in North America. As Seaboard pointed out, his family could spend three weeks in Europe for the same price as a week on the AOE.
Pullman Rail Journeys used old Pullman cars that were just like the 1940's. Only railfans had any interest in this and railfans aren't a big enough market to sustain such an operation. 
Rocky Mountaineer has succeeded based on daytime running and overnights in hotels. They are still incredibly expensive, though.


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## me_little_me (Oct 10, 2020)

I agree about where a service should appeal:
1) Amtrak beds (bunk beds) are a problem for many older people and disliked by those willing to pay for both beds on the floor but "Grand Suites" and the like should be few as compared to ordinary (but bigger) rooms with doubles and queen beds which should predominate. A few bunk rooms could be adjacent to a like number of double/queen rooms with shared door/facilities for families.
2) Alcohol is a big money maker for restaurants, cruise ships, etc. so including alcohol is not a good idea as it raises the average cost for the benefit of a fewer heavier drinkers who would be willing go pay by the drink or buy an alcohol package.
3) Many people who would travel on "luxury trains" have been there and done that when it comes to destinations so, except for out-of-the-way places like the Grand Canyon, it might be best to make tours optional so some who might want to wing it can do so either to save money or to share expenses (like a car rental) with other travelers. I would envision, e.g. in San Antonio, that less traveled people might just want to go to the Riverwalk and Alamo on their own while those that have done that might be interested in tours to outer areas.
4) I like the idea of travel without the room on a non-overnight in a little more luxury than Amtrak with less expensive hotel stays (anyone remember the "Montana Daylight"?). This would work great on Amtrak's imagined shorter distance routes (e.g. Atlanta to Nashville) or for shorter portions of long distance luxury rides where the daytime riders would have use of the diner and lounge cars. Think of attaching luxury daytime cars to the Carolinian for overnight hotel stops in Greensboro, Raleigh, Richmond and D.C. or something comparable on the Adirondack.
5) It would be nice to have Amtrak contract with third parties to offer one or more of the mentioned services where Amtrak would handle the ticketing for a cut of the pie and the third party would provide the cars and service. Getting Amtrak to really buy into the concept would encourage them to become a partner rather than a reluctant provider as it could mean Amtrak agents at stations could handle checked baggage, bus interface for tours, etc and help pay for the existence of these agents during hours when they would have little to do and/or allow agents to have additional hours where they may only presently be part-time. Stations with excess room could now have separate areas for the luxury car passengers ala Amtrak lounges helping to justify the cost of those stations.


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## Palmland (Oct 10, 2020)

Thorough analysis, Seaboard. It makes it pretty clear why third party luxury trains have a hard time making ends meet.



me_little_me said:


> 5) It would be nice to have Amtrak contract with third parties to offer one or more of the mentioned services where Amtrak would handle the ticketing for a cut of the pie and the third party would provide the cars and service. Getting Amtrak to really buy into the concept would encourage them to become a partner rather than a reluctant provider as it could mean Amtrak agents at stations could handle checked baggage, bus interface for tours, etc and help pay for the existence of these agents during hours when they would have little to do and/or allow agents to have additional hours where they may only presently be part-time. Stations with excess room could now have separate areas for the luxury car passengers ala Amtrak lounges helping to justify the cost of those stations.



I completely agree with this. I would take it a step farther and have the third party handle not only the tour business but the regular sleeper traffic and perhaps dining, other than the cafe cars. This, of course, is what the old Pullman Company did so successfully for so many years.


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## jiml (Oct 10, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> 4) I like the idea of travel without the room on a non-overnight in a little more luxury than Amtrak with less expensive hotel stays (anyone remember the "Montana Daylight"?). This would work great on Amtrak's imagined shorter distance routes (e.g. Atlanta to Nashville) or for shorter portions of long distance luxury rides where the daytime riders would have use of the diner and lounge cars. Think of attaching luxury daytime cars to the Carolinian for overnight hotel stops in Greensboro, Raleigh, Richmond and D.C. or something comparable on the Adirondack.


Having an upgraded coach option such as Club/Business Class is a very smart idea, borrowing from similar premium "chair cars" on many of the heritage railroads. How many Amtrak LD trains offer Business Class? I know of the Boston section of LSL (sometimes), the Cardinal and the Coast Starlight, but can't think of any others? Is the Palmetto a true long-distance route?


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 10, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> 5) It would be nice to have Amtrak contract with third parties to offer one or more of the mentioned services where Amtrak would handle the ticketing for a cut of the pie and the third party would provide the cars and service. Getting Amtrak to really buy into the concept would encourage them to become a partner rather than a reluctant provider as it could mean Amtrak agents at stations could handle checked baggage, bus interface for tours, etc and help pay for the existence of these agents during hours when they would have little to do and/or allow agents to have additional hours where they may only presently be part-time. Stations with excess room could now have separate areas for the luxury car passengers ala Amtrak lounges helping to justify the cost of those stations.



I agree with most of your points except this one. If the PV owner is already paying to be back behind Amtrak then Amtrak is getting a cut of the pie. As much as it costs to maintain a car and I would know first hand what that costs, I doubt you would find any owners biting. Part of that is due to mistrust between Amtrak and the PV industry that a lot of owners would feel like they will get all the costs while Amtrak gets all of the gains. Unless Amtrak starts turning around in their relationship with us it will only get worse. 




Palmland said:


> Thorough analysis, Seaboard. It makes it pretty clear why third party luxury trains have a hard time making ends meet.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with this. I would take it a step farther and have the third party handle not only the tour business but the regular sleeper traffic and perhaps dining, other than the cafe cars. This, of course, is what the old Pullman Company did so successfully for so many years.



Now this I would definitely love to see. Even when you look at the NightJet in Europe the sleepers and diners are staffed by a company called NewRest not the ÖBB. Honestly a private provider probably could provide a far superior soft and hard product. Would the cost go up potentially, but I don't know by how far. 

Naturally I would also want to read more into why the Pullman Company failed before signing off on this type of idea as well. 



jiml said:


> Having an upgraded coach option such as Club/Business Class is a very smart idea, borrowing from similar premium "chair cars" on many of the heritage railroads. How many Amtrak LD trains offer Business Class? I know of the Boston section of LSL (sometimes), the Cardinal and the Coast Starlight, but can't think of any others? Is the Palmetto a true long-distance route?



LD's with business class. 
-Coast Starlight
-Lake Shore Limited
-Cardinal
-Palmetto. 

Yes the Palmetto is technically a national network route, even though it functions as a corridor train for the most part. 

Now something I'm surprised none of you remember is the Keystone Club Car experiment with the JP Henderson private car. It ran on the rear of the Pennsylvanian in the 90s. I don't know however what they did for the other consist.


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## jiml (Oct 10, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Now something I'm surprised none of you remember is the Keystone Club Car experiment with the JP Henderson private car. It ran on the rear of the Pennsylvanian in the 90s. I don't know however what they did for the other consist.


Remember it well. I had resolved to ride it, but as you pointed out it only ran in one direction one day and returned the next. This made it very difficult to coordinate with connections. I may even have the Passenger Train Journal feature on its inception.


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## junebug (Oct 11, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> ...showing on the diagram having an elevator in the car. That is something that has never been attempted, and it's in a really small space that I don't think it would fit to be honest. So that is rather odd....



If the target audience is seniors with disposable income, I have to say an elevator is a good idea. After watching my sister have to be hoisted up after falling down the stairs, we vowed never to take her on a train again.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 11, 2020)

jiml said:


> Remember it well. I had resolved to ride it, but as you pointed out it only ran in one direction one day and returned the next. This made it very difficult to coordinate with connections. I may even have the Passenger Train Journal feature on its inception.



If you want to come ride that car let me know I can help you with that. We have it on our tourist railroad indefinitely. 



junebug said:


> If the target audience is seniors with disposable income, I have to say an elevator is a good idea. After watching my sister have to be hoisted up after falling down the stairs, we vowed never to take her on a train again.



I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say the elevator was a good or bad idea what I said is the area they claim to be putting it in does not work. The area that they think they can put it in is a very small area that would be all of 2-4 square feet. Which isn't enough room for all of the mechanical housing of equipment. If you install something similar to what I installed at our community theater you are talking of something that is at least 8 square feet. Which is enough to fit one, maybe two people. I would also be worried about what railroad vibrations could do to an elevator as well. Ours in the theater isn't great it's slow going up, decent going down but just a year of use has slowed it even further. Now try putting that on a moving train I think you have far bigger issues with it. That being said we have perfected dumbwaiters on the Hi Levels and Superliners so there is a chance we could figure it out. It just requires far more space than these people think they have. 

Which really leads me to another point about their operation. I don't think they truly understand the rolling stock they are claiming to operate. It is one thing to look at cars on the outside and dream, but it is completely different to be an operator or an owner and look at them. Someone who has never done something doesn't see the massive amount of work and undertaking it would take to install an elevator. And might not know the space available to them. 

Now VIA Rail Canada has done something to the vestibules of their Park Cars similar to an elevator but I'm not sure how that works as well. I know it doesn't go all the way to the ground as that wouldn't pass the Canadian version of the FRA.


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## joelkfla (Oct 11, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say the elevator was a good or bad idea what I said is the area they claim to be putting it in does not work. The area that they think they can put it in is a very small area that would be all of 2-4 square feet. Which isn't enough room for all of the mechanical housing of equipment. If you install something similar to what I installed at our community theater you are talking of something that is at least 8 square feet.


US DOT requires accommodation of wheelchairs & scooters up to 30 inches by 48 inches, which in itself is 10 sq. ft.


Seaboard92 said:


> Now VIA Rail Canada has done something to the vestibules of their Park Cars similar to an elevator but I'm not sure how that works as well. I know it doesn't go all the way to the ground as that wouldn't pass the Canadian version of the FRA.


I used to drive RTS buses, which had rear doorway stairs that automatically folded into a flat hydraulic lift. The lift did go all the way to the ground without compromising the ground clearance of the bus. In fact, there was a pressure switch on the bottom of the lift that required contact with the ground to flip open the safety barrier into a ramp; we had a lot of problems with that, especially when the pavement at a stop sloped away from the boarding area.


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## me_little_me (Oct 11, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I agree with most of your points except this one. If the PV owner is already paying to be back behind Amtrak then Amtrak is getting a cut of the pie. As much as it costs to maintain a car and I would know first hand what that costs, I doubt you would find any owners biting. Part of that is due to mistrust between Amtrak and the PV industry that a lot of owners would feel like they will get all the costs while Amtrak gets all of the gains. Unless Amtrak starts turning around in their relationship with us it will only get worse.


Basically, Amtrak's cut of the pie in my idea would be for all services i.e. transportation, ticketing, etc and that would include mileage and everything else they provide. Amtrak had no skin in the game before and dumped PV without a thought. Hopefully, Amtrak would have enough skin in the game that this contracted service would provide enough income, effort and success that Amtrak would be reluctant to dump it and have to give sufficient notice if they had to. Having a high enough executive with responsibility for its success would help considerably.


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## railiner (Oct 11, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> If you want to come ride that car let me know I can help you with that. We have it on our tourist railroad indefinitely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about the wheelchair elevators in the Ultra Dome cars carried on the Alaska RR? They have been in use for quite a long period, taking passengers between the lower and upper levels....




__





Alaska Railroad Goldstar Dome 653






www.trainweb.org


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 11, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Basically, Amtrak's cut of the pie in my idea would be for all services i.e. transportation, ticketing, etc and that would include mileage and everything else they provide. Amtrak had no skin in the game before and dumped PV without a thought. Hopefully, Amtrak would have enough skin in the game that this contracted service would provide enough income, effort and success that Amtrak would be reluctant to dump it and have to give sufficient notice if they had to. Having a high enough executive with responsibility for its success would help considerably.



Now if Amtrak paid the mileage, and some other costs. I could see something being worked out with a 50/50 split as the owners still have to maintain the cars. And maintaining a passenger car is much more complex then anyone would tell you. If they tell you "Oh it's nothing it's easy" they are lying to you. It is difficult and costly. 



railiner said:


> What about the wheelchair elevators in the Ultra Dome cars carried on the Alaska RR? They have been in use for quite a long period, taking passengers between the lower and upper levels....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not aware of those actually. I need to do some research on those to see how those work. I think a trip to Alaska must be in order then. To be honest I've been debating a trip to Alaska just for the fun of it for a few years. Came close now twice.


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## Palmland (Oct 11, 2020)

A friend has a live in mother in law. He installed one of those seats that moves up a track in an existing stairwell. It takes very little room and the stairway is narrow and steep. I wonder if something like that could be installed at much lower cost.


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## Qapla (Oct 11, 2020)

Now that would be interesting in a train - considering the size and shape of the stairs in a superliner car


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## MARC Rider (Oct 11, 2020)

All of these private operations typically use "classic" "heritage" railcars, that is old (50+ years old) equipment that needs to be refurbished to meet current regulatory standards, in addition to just fixing the normal wear and tear that comes from aging plus the necessary cosmetic work. Would it make economic sense for a rail cruise operator to just buy new cars that would meet all of the operating requirements, and be easier to maintain. Since it looks like there are a number of manufacturers now making passenger rail cars that meet US standards, would it be possible for these operations to obtain new off-the-shelf equipment at a reasonable cost?

On the other hand, I guess in the next few years there might be a ton-load of Horizon and Amfleet coaches hitting the market. Perhaps somebody could put together an Amfleet streamliner, complete with sleepers, diners (would only require internal alterations) and maybe even an Amfleet bullet lounge observation car or an Amfleet dome car, or just an Amfleet car with a viewliner -type top that would fit in the New York tunnels.  Just an idea. Or maybe Siemens could take a ACS-64 chassis and cover it with a replica GG-1 body shell, and Amtrak could keep a couple of Amfleet 1 trainsets, renovate them to the original circa 1975 livery and interiors and run them as "Northeast Regional Heritage" trains #1975 and #1976.


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## railiner (Oct 11, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> All of these private operations typically use "classic" "heritage" railcars, that is old (50+ years old) equipment that needs to be refurbished to meet current regulatory standards, in addition to just fixing the normal wear and tear that comes from aging plus the necessary cosmetic work. Would it make economic sense for a rail cruise operator to just buy new cars that would meet all of the operating requirements, and be easier to maintain. Since it looks like there are a number of manufacturers now making passenger rail cars that meet US standards, would it be possible for these operations to obtain new off-the-shelf equipment at a reasonable cost?
> 
> On the other hand, I guess in the next few years there might be a ton-load of Horizon and Amfleet coaches hitting the market. Perhaps somebody could put together an Amfleet streamliner, complete with sleepers, diners (would only require internal alterations) and maybe even an Amfleet bullet lounge observation car or an Amfleet dome car, or just an Amfleet car with a viewliner -type top that would fit in the New York tunnels.  Just an idea. Or maybe Siemens could take a ACS-64 chassis and cover it with a replica GG-1 body shell, and Amtrak could keep a couple of Amfleet 1 trainsets, renovate them to the original circa 1975 livery and interiors and run them as "Northeast Regional Heritage" trains #1975 and #1976.


What have you been drinking?
And where can I get some?


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 11, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> All of these private operations typically use "classic" "heritage" railcars, that is old (50+ years old) equipment that needs to be refurbished to meet current regulatory standards, in addition to just fixing the normal wear and tear that comes from aging plus the necessary cosmetic work. Would it make economic sense for a rail cruise operator to just buy new cars that would meet all of the operating requirements, and be easier to maintain. Since it looks like there are a number of manufacturers now making passenger rail cars that meet US standards, would it be possible for these operations to obtain new off-the-shelf equipment at a reasonable cost?



I don't think that would be doable just because of the sheer cost of new equipment I believe. Speaking form experience whats nice about a lot of the stuff from the Amtrak auction is a lot of those cars are road worthy in their current condition and need very little work. For instance No. 2511 just needs a brake bracket, and a few small items to enter service on any tourist or commuter railroad. Now to enter Amtrak service it would need a PC2 inspection which is valid for 40 years from when it's signed off on. Then just a normal PC1 will do. For an operator that is really easy to do because that's a quick 100-200K and you can enter Amtrak Certified status. If you can do most of the work yourself you can probably lower the cost of it depending on how many items need repairing. 



MARC Rider said:


> On the other hand, I guess in the next few years there might be a ton-load of Horizon and Amfleet coaches hitting the market. Perhaps somebody could put together an Amfleet streamliner, complete with sleepers, diners (would only require internal alterations) and maybe even an Amfleet bullet lounge observation car or an Amfleet dome car, or just an Amfleet car with a viewliner -type top that would fit in the New York tunnels. .



Don't tempt me  My friends have learned of my interest of buying just about any pieces of equipment I can find. I fully expect one day I'll have a fleet of cars.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> PRJ was mostly brought down by things outside of it as far as the overall health of the company that was fielding it. Had the rest of the IPH family been healthy PRJ very well could still be operating today.



This is worthy of repeating. My somewhat limited understanding was the Pullman service was pretty successful. 

When I got to ride I enjoyed it so much I wanted to go again but every time I looked it was sold out. 

I ran into one of the managers on a steam excursion and he said they had always wanted to add on Chicago to New York but amtrak wouldn’t let them.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

MikefromCrete said:


> Pullman Rail Journeys used old Pullman cars that were just like the 1940's. Only railfans had any interest in this and railfans aren't a big enough market to sustain such an operation.



I guess you never rode it? I certainly felt like the lone railfan on my trip. As I said in my above post, it was frequently sold out.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 19, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I guess you never rode it? I certainly felt like the lone railfan on my trip. As I said in my above post, it was frequently sold out.



No I never got the chance to ride it. I came close one or two times. Actually that is a very good thing that you felt like the lone railfan because that means it had the appeal of the general public who's sales out perform railfans significantly.


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## cocojacoby (Oct 19, 2020)

These things never seem to work. Maybe they should start with short day trips. I suggest hooking up with a cruise line and offering alternative direction rail-sale circle trips between New York/Boston and Montreal through New England during fall foliage season. Cruise one way and rail the other.

Potential day trips out of Portland through Crawford Notch would probably be an easy sell to affluent cruise ship passengers. Maybe a stopover at the Mt. Washington Resort and a trip up the Cog too. I know the Mountain Division isn't ready for this but it would be nice if possible.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

cocojacoby said:


> These things never seem to work.



Except they do. Pullman worked, there were other problems. See @Seaboard92 ’s posts.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> No I never got the chance to ride it. I came close one or two times. Actually that is a very good thing that you felt like the lone railfan because that means it had the appeal of the general public who's sales out perform railfans significantly.



I rode the city once when they first started running and had only the curved observation car on the back... I was traveling on Amtrak points out west on that trip so it made no sense to buy Pullman but I wish I had done it now.

The time I rode Pullman we had the Adirondack club and one of the AOE sleepers. That was great too, would have been fun to ride them both though.


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## WWW (Oct 28, 2020)

The Alaska RR Gold Star dome car still needs a platform to board HC guests into the car.
Once inside the car there is an elevator that hoists the guest to the dome level.
At that end of the car is the open sheltered observation platform HC accessible.
In the dome section next to the service wet bar is an free area for wheelchairs (2)
The other end of the car is not accessible.
At either end of the car are spiral staircases to go from the boarding platform to the dome.
Where the elevator is located on the lower level there is a HC accessible restroom facility.
No restroom facilities on the dome level there are two on the lower level (one for HC).

The upper level dome has seating I believe for about 50 + guests - all seats facing forward -
The set up is all seats facing forward in movement - the seats in pairs can be rotated to
face each other (party of 4) but this is discouraged for safety considerations. 

In the photo --- Alaska Railroad Goldstar Dome 653 --- 
From the outside the solid wall/panel at one end of the car is were the galley is - the glassed window area is the restaurant dining end.
Only half the car can be served at one time arranged by lots or affinity groups families - - -
The fare price of the Gold Star service includes meals and beverages (2 complimentary alcoholic drinks)
The Gold Star service on the Denali (ANC-FAI) train this being a 12 hour trip features breakfast lunch and dinner

The dome cars are usually consisted behind the locomotive(s) with the observation platforms at the rear away from the diesel fumes.
The rest of the train is composed of coach cars one or two former Santa Fe half dome cars and a concession snack car.
Baggage car(s) maybe included but often the luggage of the guests is trucked to the port or hotel.
The train takes 4.5 hours to travel Seward to Anchorage - the trucked luggage just over 3 increasing the efficiency of the operation.
This is great when your luggage is checked straight thru from your hotel to your cabin on the ship - couldn't be better.

Since the service is seasonal the Gold Star dome cars are only used during that period and operated daily.
During the winter season (now in effect) the consist is coach cars maybe a half dome and the concession car and operates
only on the weekends - check the schedule website for specifics.
And some of the Alaska RR trains stop out in the middle of nowhere miles from any hint of civilization.

The only thing that is in comparison perhaps on a better scale is the Rocky Mountaineer - - - - - If only Amtrak could duplicate #####
adding a sleeper car setup - IF ONLY ? 

Alaska RR LINK:





__





Alaska Railroad | Alaskan Tours & Vacations | Train Packages


Experience the wild beauty of Alaska by train with the Alaska Railroad. See the latest train schedules, book tickets, and explore Alaskan train routes and excursions.




www.alaskarailroad.com





Posting the image of car number 653 Alaska RR


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## railiner (Oct 28, 2020)

Excellent description!
The only correction I believe, the ARR short domes are of Union Pacific, rather than Santa Fe heritage.


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## railiner (Oct 28, 2020)

Besides the ARR cars, ARR also carries the private “Wilderness Express” cars on its train, and the Holland America and Princess cars on a separate chartered train.
You can get full details and compare them all thru www.AlaskaTrain.com.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 28, 2020)

WWW said:


> The dome cars are usually consisted behind the locomotive(s) with the observation platforms at the rear away from the diesel fumes.
> The rest of the train is composed of coach cars one or two former Santa Fe half dome cars and a concession snack car.
> Baggage car(s) maybe included but often the luggage of the guests is trucked to the port or hotel.
> The train takes 4.5 hours to travel Seward to Anchorage - the trucked luggage just over 3 increasing the efficiency of the operation.
> ...





railiner said:


> Excellent description!
> The only correction I believe, the ARR short domes are of Union Pacific, rather than Santa Fe heritage.



Actually the short domes are EX Union Pacific, and two are EX Northern Pacific (No. 554 and 555 were the NP numbers). The rest of the cars I want to say are also ex Union Pacific cars, with the exception of the wilderness cafe which I believe is ex C&NW. 

The baggage cars are included I believe for Alaska Residents more so than the rest of the passengers. Don't forget there are a lot of people who live in remote locations that are transporting everything under the sun in the baggage cars. This is not like Amtrak where the baggage is sometimes almost empty. 

The Alaska Railroad also has an office car they are happy to lease out to more exclusive private parties on the Seward train. 

Up until the cruise lines bought those super ugly Colorado Railcar Ultra Domes they used a large fleet of former Santa Fe full domes, and a Great Northern one. All those moved back to the USA with most going to Ed Ellis and Iowa Pacific. Of which those are all owned by various financial institutions, and a few are even owned by two entities. It is said Alaska is what saved those cars actually from the scrap heap. 

Give me a regular vista dome and I am a happy camper. You get a full 360 degree view which you don't get on the ultra domes or the full domes.


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## me_little_me (Oct 28, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> The baggage cars are included I believe for Alaska Residents more so than the rest of the passengers. Don't forget there are a lot of people who live in remote locations that are transporting everything under the sun in the baggage cars. This is not like Amtrak where the baggage is sometimes almost empty.


You mean because Amtrak eliminated baggage service at so many stations that anyone traveling EITHER to or from one of those former baggage stations can no longer help fill the baggage cars? And some of those people can no longer travel Amtrak because they can't lift the bags by themselves onto the train and have nowhere to place them all in their room or can't lift them above their seat?


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## TRoberts (Nov 2, 2020)

jiml said:


> Having an upgraded coach option such as Club/Business Class is a very smart idea, borrowing from similar premium "chair cars" on many of the heritage railroads. How many Amtrak LD trains offer Business Class? I know of the Boston section of LSL (sometimes), the Cardinal and the Coast Starlight, but can't think of any others? Is the Palmetto a true long-distance route?



The Crescent did for a while. I don't think they offer it anymore. It was a standard LD coach, but you had better chances of having seats together or a pair of seats by yourself.


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## dlagrua (Nov 2, 2020)

While we have toured the private rail cars we never took a trip in one. Last ones were saw were going to Denver a few years back. IMO, the sleeping accomodations on those cars are no better than what Amtrak has to offer and in many cases worse. A private car passenger that we met on the platform at DEN told us that the food was gourmet and fresh cooked to order and the liquor selection was outstanding. The private car experience sounds nice but at $2,000 +per passenger we'll pass. The other thing is that you have no access to other cars on the train and Amtrak really doesn't want them on their trains. What I can see are sleeping cars leased to Amtrak and used in regular service like Pullman once provided.


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