# Passengers harassed by terrorists AFTER LEAVING train!



## MattW (Feb 21, 2011)

That is perhaps the most sickening video I've ever seen. I'm not even sure I can eat now, and this is from someone who can eat while watching any NCIS or House episode! So much for Amtrak. I have a good mind to give up entirely on trying to travel on Amtrak if nappy's dogs can't be leashed at least to the airports and preferably to a dark cell on a certain island naval base! (I apologize to the canine world for insulting them so) If I can actually find the time, I'm firing off a letter to Bordman, the Amtrak board and its members, and at least Biden, but possibly Obama, my reps and senators at both levels, and maybe even LaHood!

Here's the flyertalk topic talking about it too: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1186557-tsa-bag-inspections-search-after-travel.html


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## dlagrua (Feb 21, 2011)

I would have refused to be searched. There is no justification for this deplorable behavior by the TSA thugs.


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## jis (Feb 21, 2011)

TSA, having caught nothing and having not prevented any terrorist from doing anything either, over all these years, and having missed zillions of potential threats, maybe they are getting really desperate to catch anything for any minor reason, anywhere.

Next they will try searching everyone coming out of a bus terminal.

Here is one place where the Congresscritters can save a billion or two just like that without affecting anything adversely.


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## Partyman (Feb 21, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> I would have refused to be searched. There is no justification for this deplorable behavior by the TSA thugs.


Hey dlagrua, what do you suppose happens if you do refuse? Any reprissals?


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## FunNut (Feb 21, 2011)

I read about this earlier today on flyertalk. Posters over there are up in arms over it. I cannot fathom why TSA would conduct searches and pat-downs AFTER passengers travel. I do believe I would have refused the search, citing the Fourth Amendment. 

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

Searching people AFTER travel would certainly fall under protections of the Fourth Amendment. There is absolutely no reason for this. Bring on the cop, who hopefully has better training in the Bill of Rights than TSA personnel. I do believe it's necessary to have LEOs in the vicinity during TSA searches. The spectacle of children being searched is very disturbing.


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## daveyb99 (Feb 21, 2011)

First: enough with the tough-guy adjectives. I saw nothing in this video that would warrant the use of "thugs".

And the 'nappy' comment there Mr. MattW. Watch yourself that pal.

These TSA were only doing their assignment. Yell at the upper-policy. Yell LOUD. Hold THEM accountable.

But if you really watch that video, the TSA Agents there were professional and doing their best to complete their assigned task.

oh, and Mr jis: private security never caught anyone either, not even the ones on that fateful Sept 2001 day.....


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## wayman (Feb 21, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> These TSA were only doing their assignment. Yell at the upper-policy. Yell LOUD. Hold THEM accountable.
> 
> But if you really watch that video, the TSA Agents there were professional and doing their best to complete their assigned task.


I'm sure most Libyan soldiers (and foreign mercenaries) have been being extraordinarily professional and doing their best to complete their assigned tasks today, too ... except for those two lousy stinkers who flew their plane to Malta and defected rather than carry out their assigned task.

Point being, yes, we must yell at the upper-policy, and loudly. But they are _not the only ones_ with responsibility here.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Feb 21, 2011)

Iam making some phone calls tonight ...............lots of them . lets play phone tag with my congressmen .

Peter


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## dlagrua (Feb 21, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> First: enough with the tough-guy adjectives. I saw nothing in this video that would warrant the use of "thugs".
> 
> And the 'nappy' comment there Mr. MattW. Watch yourself that pal.
> 
> ...


Any person that carrys out an illegal order in violation of the constitution is not only a thug he is a criminal and should be prosecuted as such.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Feb 21, 2011)

Ok 20 Phone calls later .Ill do more tomorrow

Oh how I love skype and its calling features . I made a MP3 and played to every congress message box I could find online ......

saves my voice ya know ..

Peter


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## Gingee (Feb 21, 2011)

Where was this?


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## TN Tin Man (Feb 21, 2011)

FunNut said:


> ["The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."
> 
> Searching people AFTER travel would certainly fall under protections of the Fourth Amendment. There is absolutely no reason for this. Bring on the cop, who hopefully has better training in the Bill of Rights than TSA personnel. I do believe it's necessary to have LEOs in the vicinity during TSA searches. The spectacle of children being searched is very disturbing.


I have to agree on this one.

Although we do not know the totality of the circumstances. (I was looking for the terrorist and thugs, didn't see any)

I believe that a search after travel would have to fall into "probable cause" territory and should be conducted by a trained LEO as part of a criminal investigation. I don't think that security screening by TSA is appropriate even if a credible threat was received at that station. It should be handled by trained LEOs.

That being said. Amtrak has signs posted in all stations, on thier trains, and in thier pamplets that travelers are subject to search (as a condition of travel). That would include an indivduals arrival station. It looks like you are not "free" until you leave the station property.


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## Ryan (Feb 21, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> daveyb99 said:
> 
> 
> > First: enough with the tough-guy adjectives. I saw nothing in this video that would warrant the use of "thugs".
> ...


Unfortunately, the searches are Constitutional.


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## jis (Feb 21, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> oh, and Mr jis: private security never caught anyone either, not even the ones on that fateful Sept 2001 day.....


Calm down and take deep breath 

How does the fact that the private security did not catch anyone have any bearing on the hard to explain behavior of the TSA? Or do you mean it justifies the fact that TSA has a miserable record of catching planted threats in test of their efficacy?

BTW, actually there was nothing to catch on the fateful day because the hijackers did not break any rules that were in force at the time for security barriers. So what exactly is your point?

I think it is time to seriously reconsider what the TSA should be doing and what it should not be doing. Quite a bit of its activity appears to serve no useful purpose, or at least they appear to be unable to explain why they need to do what they do.

What possible security purpose could be served by checking passengers who are just heading home from a train station and how does this falls under the purview of TSA's responsibilities in any way, completely escapes me. Which threat to public transportation system would they possibly be mitigating by such a check?

This is one case where the illegal search and seizure thing most likely applies, unlike at an airport security barrier. Indeed these questions should be raised in Congress and the whole policy issue should be addressed carefully.

Yes, there is legitimate need for securing our transportation. But it needs to be done in a more measured, justified and effective way, something that appears to be not the case now to many of us, even many that are experts in the area of security and threat mitigation.


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## saxman (Feb 21, 2011)

WY Tin Man said:


> That being said. Amtrak has signs posted in all stations, on thier trains, and in thier pamplets that travelers are subject to search (as a condition of travel). That would include an indivduals arrival station. It looks like you are not "free" until you leave the station property.


I'm no law expert, but I believe there would be a reasonable expectation that when you arrive at your destination, you should be free to go. You were perhaps subject to search before you left and maybe while enroute, but after you arrived? Even they are searching for drugs, they have to have probable cause. I believe you have the right to refuse this kind of search, even though they may say they can. They cannot detain or arrest you, however they can call a LEO. But even a LEO has to have probable cause to search you.


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## amtrakwolverine (Feb 21, 2011)

Just where did this happen? Looks like i'm canceling my gathering trip if they are doing this at every station. They should change the national anthem since its no longer the "land of the free".


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## TN Tin Man (Feb 21, 2011)

saxman said:


> WY Tin Man said:
> 
> 
> > That being said. Amtrak has signs posted in all stations, on thier trains, and in thier pamplets that travelers are subject to search (as a condition of travel). That would include an indivduals arrival station. It looks like you are not "free" until you leave the station property.
> ...


I would agree with you 100% if, Amtraks liability ended when you arrived at your destination station. It doesn't. It ends when you leave railroad property.

As far as I know TSA does not have arrest authority in any circumstance.

Yes, I agree that LEO's should do any after travel search and they should conduct it lawfully.

Refusal to a search is your right. As a LEO I can conduct a "pat down" for weapons under reasonable suspicion. A "search" under probable cause.

What TSA conducts is a search.

If I have PC and a person refuses the search. I have no problem with that. I get a search warrant and go from there. If my PC is not enough a judge will not issue the warrant. This is the way the framers of the constitution wanted it, and I agree.


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## amtrakwolverine (Feb 21, 2011)

WY Tin Man said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > WY Tin Man said:
> ...


refuse then the TSA points there high powered assault rifles at you and order you to dance around.


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## Trainmans daughter (Feb 21, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Just where did this happen? Looks like i'm canceling my gathering trip if they are doing this at every station. They should change the national anthem since its no longer the "land of the free".


Savannah, GA


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm confused about this. Where and when did this happen? These were passengers being searched AFTER they got off a train? That makes no sense at all. Of course, since the TSA has never caught any potential terrorist, I guess they have to do something to occupy their time.


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## rrdude (Feb 21, 2011)

Looks like it was Savannah, here's the post from YouTube:

"................The only bad thing on our trip was TSA was at the *Savannah train station*. There were about *14 agents* pulling people inside the building and coralling everyone in a roped area* AFTER you got OFF THE TRAIN!* This made no sense!!! Poor family in front of us! 9 year old getting patted down and wanded. They groped our people too and were very unprofessional. I am all about security, but when have you ever been harassed and felt up getting OFF a plane? Shouldnt they be doing that getting ON??? And they wonder why so many people are mad at them..........."

Once I find out this is 100% true..............Bastards, I'm using the Skype suggestion too, and calling every damn elected official that represents me. Contact the media too.


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## GG-1 (Feb 21, 2011)

Aloha

Something is missing here and on Flyertalk. Nothing mentioned anywhere gives any explanation fo the TSA to be conducting the searches on anybody let alone that family.

More information is needed.


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## rrdude (Feb 21, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> Something is missing here and on Flyertalk. Nothing mentioned anywhere gives any explanation fo the TSA to be conducting the searches on anybody let alone that family.
> 
> More information is needed.


Agree Eric, more info, or some type of collaboration is required. For all we know, the video could have been shot at an airport, although I don't see any detectors, and it does look like a very portable set up.

Maybe it was TSA in training........... Bastards either way.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Feb 22, 2011)

WY Tin Man said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > WY Tin Man said:
> ...



This is why LEOs and ex MPs should be the only ones TSA hires ...... people like you make me feel more at ease .....

My MD went to college o for 8+ years to get the privlage to feel me up .

at least a 2Y college CJ degree should be needed for ALL the TSA agents ........ Heck the CJ students here at my college have a better mind then some ( not alll to be fair) TSA agnets

Peter


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## Anderson (Feb 22, 2011)

I'd like some independent verification, as Amtrak usually does its own stuff as far as security goes...there's something that doesn't add up to this (particularly the bit about this being after disembarking and presumably not on the way to another train). As I understand it, it is explicitly Amtrak's policy that if you don't want to submit to a search, they can deny you carriage...and that's it.

Edit: Just a thought, but I think "terrorists" is probably not a good term to use here. However, why not call them "TSArrorists"?


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 22, 2011)

Our tax dollars at work? :blush:

I did a Google search and could not find any media reports to collaborate this story, but if this is true, it is an example of why it is so much better to give the money to TSA than to education. :angry: :angry:

Afterall, with education, The People might question TSA tactics. hboy:

On that note, in my Google search if found some interesting undergarments for your next train ride if thie story is true: :lol: http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment/#799609/Home :lol:


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## Ryan (Feb 22, 2011)

rrdude said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aloha
> ...


Agreed - I can't find anything to corroborate what's going on, the video could be anybody, anywhere.


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## rrdude (Feb 22, 2011)

Ryan said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > GG-1 said:
> ...


However, "circumstantial" evidence of the posters other YouTube videos do show scenes from the Savannah area, which would lead one to believe they were simply recording their experience, and the attitudes an mannerisms to this untrained eye, all have the "look and feel" of a real event.

If I were "put on the spot" and forced to make a call, "IS IT REAL? or IS IT B.S.?" I'd say "real".


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## had8ley (Feb 22, 2011)

This is a prime example of too many people doing too little...why would TSA search pax detraining when the airports are talking about getting sub-contractors to replace the tons (literally) of TSA people standing around? This total screw up doesn't do anything to help TSA~ it just adds fuel to the fire that it's an agency with no real direction.(Yeah, I know, they're supposed to be security minded but what Harvard professor is going to justify patting down a detraining 9 year old? If the kid was a terrorist it would have manifested itself on board the train; not at the TSA counter.) My only fear is the layers of bureaucracy attached to a federal watch dog agency that is going to be created to watch the sub-contractors in action :excl:


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## jis (Feb 22, 2011)

had8ley said:


> This is a prime example of too many people doing too little...why would TSA search pax detraining when the airports are talking about getting sub-contractors to replace the tons (literally) of TSA people standing around? This total screw up doesn't do anything to help TSA~ it just adds fuel to the fire that it's an agency with no real direction.(Yeah, I know, they're supposed to be security minded but what Harvard professor is going to justify patting down a detraining 9 year old?) If the kid was a terrorist it would have manifested itself on board the train; not at the TSA counter.) My only fear is the layers of bureaucracy attached to a federal watch dog agency that is going to be created to watch the sub-contractors in action :excl:


I am afraid finally we will land up with more people watching each other and collecting clips from body scanners than we will have people actually catching anything. :giggle: Sigh... hboy:


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## Anderson (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm not disputing whether the video is real. I guess the question is this: How hard would it be for something to have gotten mangled and that to have been at the Savannah airport instead of the Savannah train station?

Of course...has anyone been in the Savannah train station in the last few years and/or does that scene (as in the chairs and whatnot, not the security nonsense). In the meantime, I _would_ like somebody to get advice from a lawyer on screenings while getting off and so forth. 'course, I'd also like to be able to _offer_ a bit of advice to the TSA folks in general, but that's neither here nor there.


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## jis (Feb 22, 2011)

saxman said:


> I'm no law expert, but I believe there would be a reasonable expectation that when you arrive at your destination, you should be free to go. You were perhaps subject to search before you left and maybe while enroute, but after you arrived? Even they are searching for drugs, they have to have probable cause. I believe you have the right to refuse this kind of search, even though they may say they can. They cannot detain or arrest you, however they can call a LEO. But even a LEO has to have probable cause to search you.


TSA's job is securing transportation, not finding drugs. That would be the job of DEA, and they, in my experience, have always been way more professional in their demeanor and attitude than TSA on an average. The CBP/ICE OTOH specially when it applies to searches within 100 miles of the border, the lesser said the better. :blink:


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## rrdude (Feb 22, 2011)

had8ley said:


> This is a prime example of too many people doing too little...why would TSA search pax detraining when the airports are talking about getting sub-contractors to replace the tons (literally) of TSA people standing around? This total screw up doesn't do anything to help TSA~ it just adds fuel to the fire that it's an agency with no real direction.(Yeah, I know, they're supposed to be security minded but what Harvard professor is going to justify patting down a detraining 9 year old? If the kid was a terrorist it would have manifested itself on board the train; not at the TSA counter.) My only fear is the layers of bureaucracy attached to a federal watch dog agency that is going to be created to watch the sub-contractors in action :excl:


It's called "Job Security" Jay, the more people you have working for you, the harder it is to abolish your organization, Hell, just look at Amtrak.

It is in TSA's best interest to be everywhere, on every plane, train, bus, ferry, border, bookstore, stoop, skateboard, hang-glider, blimp, submarine, bicycle path, and share-a-ride that they can.


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## train person (Feb 22, 2011)

I suppose it's really helpful to do this sort of nonsense after the journey, might help the poor befuddled terrorist who has forgotten to set off his bomb? h34r:


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## leemell (Feb 22, 2011)

train person said:


> I suppose it's really helpful to do this sort of nonsense after the journey, might help the poor befuddled terrorist who has forgotten to set off his bomb? h34r:


Not to play devil's advocate, but one thought occurred to me, suppose the train is not the target. but somewhere at the destination? BTW, searching nine year olds is not as far fetched as it looks. It is a common tactic to use children as carriers in other parts of the world (Vietnam in the 70's comes to mind), as reprehensible as it is. I don't know anything about this particular incident and have never before heard of security searching at the arrival point.


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## nolatron (Feb 22, 2011)

saxman said:


> I'm no law expert, but I believe there would be a reasonable expectation that when you arrive at your destination, you should be free to go. You were perhaps subject to search before you left and maybe while enroute, but after you arrived? Even they are searching for drugs, they have to have probable cause.


Don't flyers go through Customs/TSA searches upon arrival at their destination when arriving on an international flight?

I see no problems with what happened in the video.


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## saxman (Feb 22, 2011)

nolatron said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no law expert, but I believe there would be a reasonable expectation that when you arrive at your destination, you should be free to go. You were perhaps subject to search before you left and maybe while enroute, but after you arrived? Even they are searching for drugs, they have to have probable cause.
> ...


This is totally different. You are going through Customs and Immigration to ENTER the country you've just arrived in. This is to make sure you are legal to be in the country you are visiting. Same thing with the re-screening when you enter the US. Since different countries do their security differently, the TSA will screen you if you are making a connection to a domestic flight. If you aren't then you are free to go to the non-sterile area of the airport once clear of customs.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 22, 2011)

nolatron said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no law expert, but I believe there would be a reasonable expectation that when you arrive at your destination, you should be free to go. You were perhaps subject to search before you left and maybe while enroute, but after you arrived? Even they are searching for drugs, they have to have probable cause.
> ...


You go through Customs when you arrive because you're entering the country, and customs have the obligation to check for contraband. You only have a TSA check if you are connecting to another flight (I suppose the idea is that you could have gotten a four-ounce bottle of something out of your checked luggage.), if your arrival airport is your final investigation there's no TSA search.

I don't see how this TSA-on-arrival thing can stick. What's to stop me from just walking around the station to the place the baggage cart arrives at (if I'm remembering Savannah station correctly), and then on to the parking lot? What can the TSA people say? They aren't peace officers, so they can't detain me, and can't use the "Do You Want to Fly Today" threat they use at airports, since I'm leaving.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Having lived in dictatorships, I'm not keen on warrentless searches or being asked to show my papers.

On the other hand, I can't say that the scene looks like the Savannah train station to me. I could be wrong, though, as I was there only once and it was early in the morning.


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## wayman (Feb 22, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I'm not disputing whether the video is real. I guess the question is this: How hard would it be for something to have gotten mangled and that to have been at the Savannah airport instead of the Savannah train station?
> 
> Of course...has anyone been in the Savannah train station in the last few years and/or does that scene (as in the chairs and whatnot, not the security nonsense). In the meantime, I _would_ like somebody to get advice from a lawyer on screenings while getting off and so forth. 'course, I'd also like to be able to _offer_ a bit of advice to the TSA folks in general, but that's neither here nor there.


There are two interior shots of Savannah's train station at TrainWeb. Looks like the chairs may have been replaced but with very similar ones (the arms are different), but the floor tiles are the same, the plants are the same, the walls look the same. I'd believe this really is the train station. Plus, the audio includes people talking about having gotten off the _train_ which, unless you think the audio was altered, is a pretty good indicator


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## Nervous Nelly (Feb 22, 2011)

Perhaps, there was intel that the station was in danger by an arriving passenger?


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 22, 2011)

Nervous Nelly said:


> Perhaps, there was intel that the station was in danger by an arriving passenger?


If there was, did they catch anybody? I'm betting NO!


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## jis (Feb 22, 2011)

Nervous Nelly said:


> Perhaps, there was intel that the station was in danger by an arriving passenger?


Yep. That is why instead of shooing everyone out of the station as fast as possible, they kept them around all confined in a small space so that said arriving passenger could get more time to carry out his/her nefarious deed in plenty of time.


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## amamba (Feb 23, 2011)

Did anyone hear back after contacting the person who posted the youtube video? just curious. I just feel like I need more information about this incident.


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## City of Miami (Feb 23, 2011)

They also have this same procedure now in the Houston Bus Station since last November - just like the airport, except I didn't have to take off my shoes. It is so ridiculous because they don't have it anywhere else in TX!!


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## daveyb99 (Feb 23, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> Nervous Nelly said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps, there was intel that the station was in danger by an arriving passenger?
> ...


UH, Maybe the intel was bad.


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 23, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Nervous Nelly said:
> ...



Or maybe their intel is non-existent


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## GG-1 (Feb 23, 2011)

Aloha

It is time to stop the speculation, and ranting, in this thread. I am not closing it but please keep to the real issues and truth in the specific situation.

Mahalo


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## PaulM (Feb 23, 2011)

"War of the Worlds" anyone?


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 23, 2011)

:help: This looks suspiciously like a Training Video or perhaps even a Photoshopped Hoax, amazing things done with computers now a days!  There couldnt be any Sane reason for the TSA to close check Kids with their Mother AFTER getting off the train unless it was the DEA, Immigration or Local Law Enforcemnt! I'm a Doubting Thomas on this one, where's the Proof??


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## rrdude (Feb 23, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> It is time to stop the speculation, and ranting, in this thread. I am not closing it but please keep to the real issues and truth in the specific situation.
> 
> Mahalo


Eric, when is it EVER time to "stop speculation"?


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## GG-1 (Feb 23, 2011)

rrdude said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aloha
> ...


Aloha

Well maybe "speculation" should not be stopped. but using the word speculation with the word rant was meant to show frustration with the many comments that were intended to inflame feelings about TSA people. Discussions about the reasons or necessity of the TSA are not included. So Far nothing in this thread proves that the video is real and/or supports exit searches are being conducted. I hope this clarifies what bothers me in this thread.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 23, 2011)

A random thought, and I believe this isn't the case here too, but...

Drug smugglers are best caught AFTER they get off the train. Confront them on the train and you risk the safety of other pax. Obviously if you really want to get people in prison is is best to catch them AFTER they try and move drugs on Federal property.

Of course if that's the case, there is a good chance you have a name and face of the person you are looking for. No need for full TSA force.


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## Trogdor (Feb 24, 2011)

The TSA do not enforce drug laws. We have the DEA for that, and they already can (and do) search passengers on trains and in stations regularly.


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## TN Tin Man (Feb 24, 2011)

Eric is right.

Who here knows the facts of this video? No one!!! (page 1 I asked for totality of circumstances)

TSA. DEA, FBI. Whatever? It's all speculation and classic Knee-jerk reactions to what? Someones political leaning?

LOCK THIS THREAD until the facts are known.

Sorry, I get tired of all the politics discussed on this forum.


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## City of Miami (Feb 24, 2011)

Better to just stop reading the thread, Tin Man.


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## VentureForth (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm a bit concerned about the authenticity of all of this.

Here are my random thoughts in no particular order...

Without having seen the video, my first impressions is that the TSA doesn't come to Savannah Station. The dozen or so times I've been there to railfan or to ride, I've never seen any police, except one time I saw a cop who seemed nervous that I was hanging out by the tracks. I left, he followed me out and that was that.

Now, having seen part of the video, I thought TSA wore white shirts with black pants. I haven't seen blue-shirt TSA. The first few seconds also show the video looking right into the face of a cop. I don't think that a cop would have just stood by and let that happen.

I have also looked back two weeks in the local news (WTOC & WJCL) and find no reference to this activity. Had it happened as shown, you'd bet it would be on the news!

The video also seemed a bit too professional. Why?

My possible explanation:

Savannah is home to SCAD - the Savannah College of Arts and Design, a very "progressive" private applied arts schools attracting folks from around the country - many of whom use Amtrak for transit, so it is well known amongst the students. Each year, there is a video contest. My thought is that it could have been a filming for this.

I could be way off base - but so many things don't add up -

- Uniforms (could just be me)

- Waiting area was already set up to look like a customs screening area. If a train just arrived, where were the people who were fixing to get on the train waiting? Depending on the day and the train, that lobby gets REAL full!

- Why not in the news? This is a very low key station. Even a DUI checkpoint makes the news. Wouldn't a TSA sweep?

- The obvious - what are they looking for when folks are getting off the train?

- Police not caring about being video taped (Ever try to turn on a recorder when pulled over by a traffic cop??)

- Looks like the video was pulled from YouTube (or I have a really bad internet connection)

So, I'm not saying that this is a real video. But it sure doesn't act like it. And trust me, being a huge Amtrak fan in Savannah, I'm sure someone would have brought it to my attention before now.

There was a bomb threat to the station back in December. If this is real, it's probably just two months late showing up to YouTube.

Otherwise, I call shenanigans.


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## PerRock (Feb 24, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> Now, having seen part of the video, I thought TSA wore white shirts with black pants. I haven't seen blue-shirt TSA. The first few seconds also show the video looking right into the face of a cop. I don't think that a cop would have just stood by and let that happen.


About a year (or so) back TSA changed their uniforms to the seen Blue version. As seen on this page on their website: http://www.tsa.gov/w..._are/index.shtm (Was the first picture i came across on their site, I'm sure there are more.

My guess is that it is a training for TSA. Makes a bit of sense to give some new gropers a more relaxed environment to start on, then dump them into the bustling airport.

peter


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## roomette (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh, it's real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usa-qX_7J_M


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 24, 2011)

PerRock said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Now, having seen part of the video, I thought TSA wore white shirts with black pants. I haven't seen blue-shirt TSA. The first few seconds also show the video looking right into the face of a cop. I don't think that a cop would have just stood by and let that happen.
> ...


But not for the people, unfortunately.


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## amtrakwolverine (Feb 24, 2011)

This is BS why the hell search people AFTER LEAVING A TRAIN. if your trying to protect the train you do it BEFORE THEY GET ON. if you trying to stop a bomber why look for it in a crowded room? that's what the terrorists wants. You think he/she is going to let the TSA find it NO. They will blow themselves up in the crowded room for maximum damage. ALL THE TERRORIST ATTACKS ON TRAIN STATIONS AND BEEN AT PEAK HOURS FOR MAXIMUM DAMAGE. So how is searching people after they get off a train making us safer its not. It's just security theater adding another act to the show. Its stupid and if they do this at all stations I'M canceling my gathering and amtrak can go **** themselves. If i wanted to be molested by the TSA I WOULD ****ING FLY.


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## amamba (Feb 24, 2011)

roomette said:


> Oh, it's real.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usa-qX_7J_M


Here's the thing about that call, IMO. The amtrak official on the phone never once mentioned TSA. She mentioned customs and border patrol on multiple occasions but did not specifically refer to the TSA.

And I would caution anyone who records a call to make sure that they understand the local laws governing voice recording. It is illegal, for example, in the state of Massachusetts to covertly record phone calls without express permission of BOTH parties.


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## Eric S (Feb 24, 2011)

amamba said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, it's real.
> ...


I thought "DHS" was mentioned. DHS (Dept of Homeland Security) would include TSA. Of course, with so many acronyms, things can get lost and confusing pretty quickly.


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## amamba (Feb 24, 2011)

Eric S said:


> I thought "DHS" was mentioned. DHS (Dept of Homeland Security) would include TSA. Of course, with so many acronyms, things can get lost and confusing pretty quickly.


You are right! I stand corrected. This was picked up in the Drudge report today (according to the flyertalk thread). Sounds like it is a legit video.


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## Spokker (Feb 25, 2011)

When this type of security comes to the California corridor services, I will be done with Amtrak permanently. I will also not go through this security in order to board a Metrolink train.


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## rrdude (Feb 25, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> This is BS why the hell search people AFTER LEAVING A TRAIN. if your trying to protect the train you do it BEFORE THEY GET ON. if you trying to stop a bomber why look for it in a crowded room? that's what the terrorists wants. You think he/she is going to let the TSA find it NO. They will blow themselves up in the crowded room for maximum damage. ALL THE TERRORIST ATTACKS ON TRAIN STATIONS AND BEEN AT PEAK HOURS FOR MAXIMUM DAMAGE. So how is searching people after they get off a train making us safer its not. It's just security theater adding another act to the show. Its stupid and if they do this at all stations I'M canceling my gathering and amtrak can go **** themselves. If i wanted to be molested by the TSA I WOULD ****ING FLY.


Sooooo, Kevin. I take it you _don't like _the TSA searching people at Train Stations?

I'm messing with ya man. I feel your passion. Totally a waste of time. Re-direct the time/energy/money on human intel.

We can't stop every madman/woman bomber. Even if we were armed to the teeth with guards at every corner, and a "spy" in every house. (like North Korea).

I think most of us just have to politely refuse the search, or even to answer questions, and be prepared for the consequences. Which, if the screening is done after de-training, couldn't really add up to much.

I think the video is real.


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## TVRM610 (Feb 26, 2011)

It certainly looks like the Savannah station, and it certainly does look real. What I'm worried about is this a sign of regular things to come? I mean are we gonna see TSA at all amtrak stations soon? I realize this was not a "normal" thing at Savannah, but was it a test for future regular screenings?


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## TVRM610 (Feb 26, 2011)

Oh hey guys.. look what I just found! http://blog.tsa.gov/2011/02/screening-of-passengers-at-savannah.html


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## amtrakwolverine (Feb 26, 2011)

No I don't like the TSA and there way of doing business. How they are doing it is completely stupid cause they have no brains. How is looking for bombs or whatever in a crowed station protecting us. Of all the terror attacks at trains stations that stations have been full and at rush hour. Terrorists want to do maximum damage to get there point across. If a bomb goes off in a empty station or if only 1 or 2 people get killed so what they failed. And how is searching me AFTER i came cross country protecting the train or fellow passengers. It's Not. Also searching luggage is not going to help when anyone can park a van full of TNT on a grade crossing and have a train slam into it. For airplanes the threat comes once airborn and from inside. ON a train the threat can come from anywhere. How many grade crossings are in the USA and how many Unnamed stations without gate SS agents are there.

EDIT after reading the TSA blog how is searching me after I get off the train for items prohibited on amtrak making us safer.


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## Eric S (Feb 26, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> Oh hey guys.. look what I just found! http://blog.tsa.gov/


Thanks for that find. I suppose it is at least a little reassuring that the whole episode of detraining passengers (or, more specifically, detraining passengers who entered the station) being searched was a mistake and should not necessarily have happened. It seems that the VIPR program could use some readjustment and fine-tuning to make it work more appropriately for a railroad station environment. (Now that I think of it, that statement could probably apply to the entire TSA program in most transportation environments.)


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## amamba (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks so much for posting the blog link! Good to know that it is not something that they are planning on rolling out widely.


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## Ryan (Feb 26, 2011)

Here's a direct link for when that's no longer the top post on their blogs.

http://blog.tsa.gov/2011/02/screening-of-passengers-at-savannah.html

I'd encourage folks to comment (not that I think that it'll have any bearing on the "we know better than you" jackwagons at the TSA.


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## TVRM610 (Feb 26, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Here's a direct link for when that's no longer the top post on their blogs.
> 
> http://blog.tsa.gov/2011/02/screening-of-passengers-at-savannah.html
> 
> I'd encourage folks to comment (not that I think that it'll have any bearing on the "we know better than you" jackwagons at the TSA.


Oh good catch Ryan... I updated my post with that link as well.

Also.. something i just thought of, If i was just walking in to pick up a ticket for a future trip, or heck maybe just ask the Agent a few questions if I had never ridden before, a full pat down and screening seems just a little extreme to me. I find it completely ironic that the passengers boarding Amtrak in general are not screened, but if you want to sit in the waiting room of a small station that's when the security kicks in! ha.


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## jis (Feb 26, 2011)

So it would appear from the Blog that there was no tipoff or anything, and that in the usual TSA style they just screwed up. By mistake they screened people coming off the train, possibly in addition to those going onto the train. The primary purpose of the blog appears to be to say _mea culpa_, explain and apologize for the same. I can understand that and appreciate it. <_<

But if people don't need to go through the station building to board or disembark then what purpose is any of the screening serving? Surely the bad guys are not so stupid as to walk past the clear sign cited in the Blog and walk up to TSA and ask for a search? As usual the whole thing is a bit of a charade, possibly more for the show than anything else. Oh well....

BTW, here is a list of Amtrak Prohibited Items from the web page cited in the Blog:



> * Any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives, or weapon.
> 
> * Incendiaries, including flammable gases, liquids and fuels.
> 
> ...


Of these arguably only some of the items in line 1, 2 and 4 would possibly require a pat down, and even of those a few would require instrumentation to detect, and no hand in white gloves will find some of those things no matter how hard they poke around.

<sarcasm>

As for the rest, - it is of course quite obvious that such would not be detectable without a detailed pat down. Watch out for that battery containing acids that someone stashed away in their groin area.  Or that billy club hidden you know where  And those fragile valuable items? You would not want such extremely dangerous things to get on the train ever now, would you? And who else but a nine year old would carry such? :giggle:

</sarcasm>

Blogs notwithstanding, don't they have something better to do with their time? Seriously?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 26, 2011)

At least we don't have to dump out our water at the sign "no beverages beyond here"


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## tp49 (Feb 27, 2011)

WY Tin Man said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > WY Tin Man said:
> ...


I agree in part and disagree in part. I agree with what you say about liability ending when you leave railroad property. I would go further and say that if they secured the entire station area and decided to screen prior to leaving the "secure area" then it is not violative of the 4th Amendment but would fall under the same "consent" exception that is in part the justification for the initial screening at airports. Under those circumstances I could make the argument that any potential search post-travel but prior to leaving station property (and by that I mean the station building itself) would be lawful. This comes from someone who did criminal defense work and actively looks to the lawfulness of searches.

However, since this is such a grey area what it will take to clarify it is someone suing as a result of a search and the courts getting involved.

@ Saxman, When they search for drugs at the airport generally PC was already established either by a reliable tip, observations, etc or via having dogs sniffing around in the arrival area. If you refuse the search they can detain you until the warrant is obtained. Now of course if anyone ever found themselves in that situation the best course of action is to shut up, say nothing and state you will not answer any questions without counsel present.


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## jis (Feb 27, 2011)

Now it turns out that apparently even while indulging in a feeble attempt to do a _mea culpa_ and apologizing, they can't quite tell the truth, perhaps because it makes them look even more stupid and undermines the feeble story explaining things. Sigh. The TSA Blog says:



> It should be noted that disembarking passengers did not need to enter the station to claim luggage or get to their car.


A passenger who underwent the TSA treatment at Savannah says:



> Brian Gamble @Jeff Pierce - Yes. Myself as well as all those people in the video were told by TSA to go inside the train station when we all got OFF the train to "get our luggage". They then grabbed everyone and coralled them and wouldnt let you leave until after the search and scan. Our luggage was never inside. It was left outside unsecured by the train. I am all for security but do it BEFORE we get on the train. This was just a shake down! Gave me a bad taste for TSA. I was appalled.


If that is what actually happened, what is even more odd is that they appear to have just patted down and felt up the individuals and did not bother to do anything with their luggage which was left outside unguarded? Why does that make any sense whatsoever? Weird indeed! Really a bit of government gone amok IMHO.

If this is what transpired, I think the TSA owes the nation a full accounting of what actually transpired and what is being done to prevent such wasteful idiocy in the future. Trust me I am all for security. But this sort of nonsense has apparently very little to do with security AFAICT.


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## wayman (Feb 27, 2011)

jis said:


> BTW, here is a list of Amtrak Prohibited Items from the web page cited in the Blog:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I would guess a pat-down might have detected these ("Woman charged with smuggling fish in skirt:

Customs officials hear ‘flipping’ noises, find 51 tropical species")... :help:


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## Spokker (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm surprised how many people are accepting of pat downs and screening even before getting on the train. I see a lot of comments like, "I'm okay with being patted down before getting on, but not after!" and it's disgusting.

Amtrak operates semi-commuter service in places like Southern California and Northern California. Are we going to be seeing this at busier stations like LAUS? Depending on where they set up the checkpoints, will we be seeing Metrolink and Metro rail and bus riders being selected for screening if they have to pass through the station? There's a lot of questions to be answered and that blog post clarifies nothing.


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## Tumbleweed (Feb 27, 2011)

If effective security measures are so important, why is it so hard to understand that one person with a trained dog can cover more territory and easily find anything associated with explosives, while not being intrusive......that would give me much more comfort and trust in the system, and would cost a fraction of a team of "VIPERS"......


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## hhswami (Mar 1, 2011)

It is definitely SAV in the video. From the camera perspective, the doorway to the platforms are behind and slightly left, ticketing and baggage areas on your immediate left, to the right doors lead to the parking and taxi pickup areas. A slight pan left at the beginning of the video shows one of two restroom doors, and further left out of view are the main doors and drop-off area. My Amtrak trips almost always either originate from or end at Savannah, so seeing this video had aroused my curiosity about the whole event. I've only just now had the chance to do some web-searching of my own to justify, in my mind, the TSA intent in staging such a search. Instead, I've more questions than when I began.

The You Tube posting didn't give any specific Amtrak information, so my first thought, since there was no light coming from any windows, and TSA Blogger Bob indicated "this particular VIPR operation should have ended by the time these folks were coming through the station since no more trains were leaving the station," this involved passengers from the Palmetto (#89) at its evening terminus. It was actually, however, the Silver Meteor (#98) on Feb. 10, 2011, due at 7:57pm, arriving 36 minutes late. The Palmetto was due to arrive at 9:03pm, and while I could not find the actual time into SAV, it had only been late by 8 minutes into Charleston, SC on a previous stop.

The video is from a

 taking Amtrak on a long weekend from central Florida to Savannah around Valentines Day, not the busiest time to see River Street and the Historic District, so if the weather holds out, everything should be just gearing up for a new tourist season. Note what the You Tube post description said about the experience on the video: "The only bad thing on our trip was TSA was at the Savannah train station. There were about 14 agents pulling people inside the building and coralling everyone in a roped area AFTER you got OFF THE TRAIN!" If you've ever been to SAV depot, you'd know it's almost in the middle of nowhere. The tour would have brought baggage that would be loaded en masse to the group hotel.
Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport is the last place I experienced a pat-down for travel, but the security emphasis may be more prevalent due to hosting an industrial international port. Some years ago from the platform I viewed a bomb dog and handler inspecting an Amtrak consist. Otherwise, it's always been a pretty boring place to wait for your train. The comfort level can be very low on any scale. With a reportedly 14 TSA agents in action there, I'm willing to suggest the only arrivals making the best of it were the kids in the video, and should have been issued honorary TSA agent badges they could show in school. Baggage at arrival is usually brought from the train on a cart and available outside the depot by presenting your claim check to an Amtrak agent, and you normally wouldn't need to enter the station upon arrival. If the TSA were "coralling" arriving passengers during my watch, I'd be one upset tour group leader, while still needing to gather their checked bags and get my group comfortably to their hotel. Kudos to Guns and Hoses Travel.

TSA Blogger Bob directly states "During VIPR operations, any person entering the impacted area has to be screened. In this case, the Amtrak station was the subject of the VIPR operation so people entering the station were being screened for items on the Amtrak prohibited items list, as seen in the video. It should be noted that disembarking passengers did not need to enter the station to claim luggage or get to their car." I doubt if Bob was actually there, so I'm more likely to believe the tour group coralling version.

This would have been my strangest trip on the Meteor if traveled on this day. After calling Julie and knowing the Meteor was to be a half hour or so late, strolling into SAV to print my tickets, only to find TSA had the special event ready for me that I don't like when flying. My suspect liquid is usually a bottle of wine to be consumed in my roomette, or in the hotel afterwards the next day if I'm booked coach, plus the corkscrew I'm carrying to use as a weapon. Passengers leaving the Meteor would be allowed off first, and those deciding to escape for a smoke before claiming checked baggage might either escape big brother, or be considered a terrorist. If you need to use the bathroom, there may be an agent there to watch your every movement! Pity the greeted Palmetto traveler who boarded in New York. Welcome to Savannah!

Although I'd like to know, there's no indication I can find, except for Bob, that passengers were subjected to search before boarding the Meteor, or if Palmetto riders were subject to so on arrival. It could have happened, but because it did for arriving riders on #98 while someone is video recording an adventurous journey, I now believe Blogger Bob manipulates his words to deceive, and TSA, et all in place for national security, just lost huge points in approval ratings.

IMHO, someone up the chain of command in charge of VIPR "random high-visibility surge into a transit system" should be required as security during SAV station hours (4:15pm to 1:30pm the next day) while wearing a blue TSA shirt, and a clown nose!


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## jis (Mar 1, 2011)

wayman said:


> Well, I would guess a pat-down might have detected these ("Woman charged with smuggling fish in skirt:
> 
> Customs officials hear ‘flipping’ noises, find 51 tropical species")... :help:


And those would be fish of the exploding kind I presume? hboy: :giggle:


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## wayman (Mar 1, 2011)

jis said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I would guess a pat-down might have detected these ("Woman charged with smuggling fish in skirt:
> ...



 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 1, 2011)

I just love the name "Blogger Bob." Such a friendly sounding name. Must be the 21st Century's version of Uncle Sam. :lol: :lol: :lol: :blink: hboy:


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## wayman (Mar 1, 2011)

hhswami said:


> Note what the You Tube post description said about the experience on the video: "The only bad thing on our trip was TSA was at the Savannah train station. There were about 14 agents pulling people inside the building and coralling everyone in a roped area AFTER you got OFF THE TRAIN!"
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


The TSA is set up to permit a culture of deniability. Field agents cannot be questioned, and likely are not allowed to speak with the media, directing all questions to spokespeople like Blogger Bob. (Besides, most media would have a very difficult time getting to any TSA incident to actually cover it -- in this instance, the entire operation would have been broken down before a Savannah newspaper or TV reporter could get to the station; in an airport, after any particularly egregious TSA action the employees in question could be "taken off shift" and shielded by a supervisor who directs all further questions to TSA headquarters.)

When the media's only point of contact is a spokesperson in headquarters, that person can say anything they want -- basically, that official policy was carried out perfectly, blah blah blah -- without necessarily _lying_ in any way. Blogger Bob (and any other spokesperson) wasn't there and didn't actually _see_ that any policy was violated. The only way to actually get some sort of admission from the TSA that something went wrong would be subpoenaing field agents to a court hearing, at which they could be directed not to speak on the record in deference to their supervisor or higher-ups.

So the TSA gets to come out of these events with a very nice veneer of responsibility which for the mainstream media is very tough to crack. Citizen journalists (folks with cellphone cameras) can crack it a bit with videos like this, but when the TSA makes an official response (Blogger Bob), any media account is obligated to report both sides ... and the TSA official response _sounds_ more authoritative than some random person with a cellphone camera who probably can't easily and provably give us the full context of the situation in their video -- they can show us something and put it in context with comments, but it's really hard to do so in a thorough enough way to stand up in the media's scrutiny as more authoritative than a government agency's official line. (Remember, the mainstream media has to be very concerned with being accused of libel.)


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## Ryan (Mar 1, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I just love the name "Blogger Bob." Such a friendly sounding name. Must be the 21st Century's version of Uncle Sam. :lol: :lol: :lol: :blink: hboy:


I hear that he's Baghdad Bob's long lost cousin (and just as inept)







I mean seriously, the TSA could have named their blogger anything! Did nobody ever make the obvious connection to Saddam's Minister of Information and think "Gee, we should come up with something different!"? hboy:


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## rrdude (Mar 1, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Here's a direct link for when that's no longer the top post on their blogs.
> 
> http://blog.tsa.gov/...t-savannah.html
> 
> I'd encourage folks to comment (not that I think that it'll have any bearing on the "we know better than you" jackwagons at the TSA.


I just wrote Mikulski, Cardin, and Cummings. (My Maryland Reps) This has got to stop!


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