# An Election Plum for VIA



## NS VIA Fan (Aug 1, 2015)

Harper is expected to 'officially' announce the Oct 19th election tomorrow...... but the plums have already started with this one for VIA.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1013689

Essentially an upgrade of the infrastructure on the Montreal-Ottawa route including Ottawa Station which will see high-level platforms installed.

The Renaissance fleet will also be upgraded and used between Montreal and Ottawa and another news report says there will be two additional round-trips added when the infrastructure upgrades are complete.


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## OBS (Aug 1, 2015)

Amazing what can happen when people are in serious trouble regarding their reelection...


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 1, 2015)

Good news for Canada! ☺

Conservative Governments in other countries do try to take care of the Regular people unlike here, where they dance on the strings of their Billionaire Masters!( a Tory in Canada would be a Liberal Democrat here, they even support such Socialistic things as Universal Health Care for all!)


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## afigg (Oct 20, 2015)

Any reports or opinions about what the Liberal party victory in the Canadian elections means for VIA? I did a quick search for the Liberal platform and saw proposals to significantly increase funding for public transit and infrastructure. So are the prospects for increased VIA capital funding and maybe even service expansion & restoration looking much improved?


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## jis (Oct 20, 2015)

Justin Trudeau talks High Speed Rail


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## Anderson (Oct 20, 2015)

One interesting thing is that Trudeau is over 30 years younger than Paul Martin and nearly 40 years younger than Jean Chretien...so while the previous Liberals weren't _terribly_ helpful there's definitely room for a generational difference to play a role here. The fact that the Libs won the most seats in Quebec for the first time since 1980 (the PCs did in '84 and '88, Bloc in '93, '97, '00, '04, and '08, and the NDP in '11) might also help in some respects...as might the fact that the last big passenger investment (aside from the Rens) was made, as far as I can tell, by Pierre Trudeau.

So there's at least some reason to be hopeful of what Trudeau will push for on the rail front. Honestly, the VIA Corridor is pretty well set up for HSR service: Aside from suburban stops (Dorval, etc.) you basically have a major city center stop with a stray intermediate stop...so there's not lots of stop-and-go outside the major urban areas (Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, and Quebec City). South of Toronto it's more complicated...but I could see much faster service north/east of Toronto paying off. Now if only we could get workable connections to/from the Adirondack on the same day...


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## bretton88 (Oct 25, 2015)

Anderson said:


> One interesting thing is that Trudeau is over 30 years younger than Paul Martin and nearly 40 years younger than Jean Chretien...so while the previous Liberals weren't _terribly_ helpful there's definitely room for a generational difference to play a role here. The fact that the Libs won the most seats in Quebec for the first time since 1980 (the PCs did in '84 and '88, Bloc in '93, '97, '00, '04, and '08, and the NDP in '11) might also help in some respects...as might the fact that the last big passenger investment (aside from the Rens) was made, as far as I can tell, by Pierre Trudeau.
> 
> So there's at least some reason to be hopeful of what Trudeau will push for on the rail front. Honestly, the VIA Corridor is pretty well set up for HSR service: Aside from suburban stops (Dorval, etc.) you basically have a major city center stop with a stray intermediate stop...so there's not lots of stop-and-go outside the major urban areas (Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, and Quebec City). South of Toronto it's more complicated...but I could see much faster service north/east of Toronto paying off. Now if only we could get workable connections to/from the Adirondack on the same day...


And 10 billion even for Canada isn't that much, especially considering its not going to be spend all in one year. High Speed Rail between Toronto and Montreal should be a no-brainer for that price.


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## Anderson (Oct 26, 2015)

My guess is that the project runs over budget (and/or gets smacked with the currency situation)...so figure CAD15bn. The big questions are:
(1) Would they electrify, go with some version of a Turboservice, etc.?
(2) As part of (1), what of services to/from Ottawa (which get a decent amount of government use)?

(3) In general, what _does_ the CAD10bn (give or take) cover? Are we talking an actual line running at 188MPH, a 125MPH Intercity-type service (which would be compatible with through service and using both the direct and via Ottawa lines). etc.?


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 5, 2015)

Marc Garneau is the new Transport Minister in the Trudeau Cabinet and he has taken transportation that very few others ever have…..he’s a former Astronaut.

_“The reaction I have to (Garneau’s appointment) is one of delight, really,” said Michael Bourque, president of the Railway Association of Canada, which represents more than 50 freight and passenger railways.”_

http://business.financialpost.com/news/canadas-railways-optimistic-that-new-transport-minister-marc-garneau-can-thaw-frigid-relations


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 5, 2015)

Excellent news! Sounds like the son wants to share the workload with the Cabinet and Parliment, and not try to do it all himself like his dad,Canada's JFK, was known to do!


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## neroden (Nov 24, 2015)

Anderson said:


> One interesting thing is that Trudeau is over 30 years younger than Paul Martin and nearly 40 years younger than Jean Chretien...


He's the first head of state in the western world who I could consider *my* generation. A few years older, but not so much that I'd just expect him to be out of touch.



> so while the previous Liberals weren't _terribly_ helpful there's definitely room for a generational difference to play a role here.


In four years or eight years, can we elect someone his age in the US? Pleeeease?


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## neroden (Nov 24, 2015)

Here's what I'm actually hoping for. VIA's boss has made a very coherent presentation saying that exclusive tracks are more important than "high speed". I expect:

-- a brand-new high speed line from roughly Bowmanville to Brockville; maybe 125 mph, maybe 160 mph, doesn't matter too much

-- VIA on the GO lines from Bowmanville to Toronto

-- A new conventional-speed line from Montreal to Coteau, shared by AMT and VIA

-- speedups on the VIA lines from Brockville-Ottawa-Coteau

-- electrification of the entire route from Toronto to Ottawa and the entire route from Ottawa to Montreal

-- brand new electric EMU trainsets for all Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto services

I think with enough speedups it won't make sense to run separate Montreal-Toronto trains which skip Ottawa. I would suggest that a faster route would be taken Toronto-Ottawa, but I think Kingston will want high-speed service and bypassing Brockville from Kingston gets into a lot of lakes.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 24, 2015)

Slight correction neroden: The PM in Canada, just like in England, is Head of Government! HM Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State!

Canada has a Governor General appointed by the Queen to serve as her laision to the Canadian Government.

As for your plea to elect a young(er) President, I'm 71 years old and the Old Guys we've elected have generally been over the hill and been less than great CICs.

But there is lots to say for experience and seasoning, you wouldn't want a Surgeon that hadn't been to Medical School to operate on you!


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## Anderson (Dec 2, 2015)

Unless those trains are _really_ moving, it's probably always going to make sense to skip Ottawa with some trains. As it is, a direct Toronto-Montreal line is going to clock in at about 330-350 miles downtown-to-downtown (depending on exact routings); adding Ottawa probably adds 70-90 miles to the route (I'd need to check VIA's mileage chart) unless you force a "virgin" routing (e.g. more than just exclusive tracks in something resembling an existing ROW)...and with that about another hour or more. Put another way, a 160 MPH train with mostly exclusive tracks could have an outside hope of making TWO-MTR in about three hours (a 112 MPH average is extremely fast, but if it only has a single intermediate stop that is doable if you get a good routing, avoid bad curves, and get a good sort on the approaches to each city), though 3.5 hours is probably more likely (95-100 MPH average). Add in Ottawa and you're adding about an hour.


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## Montreal Ltd (Dec 4, 2015)

Hey that is HM (Her Majesty) Queen Elizabeth II, not HRH (His/Her Royal Highness), which is generally used for princes and princesses. For example, HRH Prince Charles, also referred to as HRH the Prince of Wales.


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## neroden (Dec 7, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Unless those trains are _really_ moving, it's probably always going to make sense to skip Ottawa with some trains. As it is, a direct Toronto-Montreal line is going to clock in at about 330-350 miles downtown-to-downtown (depending on exact routings); adding Ottawa probably adds 70-90 miles to the route (I'd need to check VIA's mileage chart) unless you force a "virgin" routing (e.g. more than just exclusive tracks in something resembling an existing ROW)...and with that about another hour or more. Put another way, a 160 MPH train with mostly exclusive tracks could have an outside hope of making TWO-MTR in about three hours (a 112 MPH average is extremely fast, but if it only has a single intermediate stop that is doable if you get a good routing, avoid bad curves, and get a good sort on the approaches to each city), though 3.5 hours is probably more likely (95-100 MPH average). Add in Ottawa and you're adding about an hour.


Ah, but suppose you're running at the mercy of CN (dispatching delays!) at less than 79 mph on the direct route, and on exclusive 160 mph tracks on the route via Ottawa? That's the scenario I'm thinking of. Any plausible order of upgrades will have Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal sped up before the direct route, so...

Eventually they'll probably build a passenger track on the direct route, but there'll be a period before that.


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## Dayliner381 (Dec 8, 2015)

I think this discussion would benefit from some of the relevant facts.

1. Passenger trains currently run at up to 95 MPH on the Kingston sub, so the less than 79 MPH pace in Neroden's scenario is not likely. Moreover, there have been significant investments to increase capacity by adding third tracks in recent years as part of VIA capital budget.

2. The additional mileage via Ottawa is about 64. (Montreal to Toronto is 335 miles, Coteau to Ottawa is 75, Ottawa to Brockville 76, Coteau to Brockville via Cornwall is 87).

3. One bottleneck, which has not been eliminated is at Coteau itself, where CN has yard facilities.

4. The exact routing of VIA's proposed dedicated tracks has not been spelled out (for obvious reasons relating to potential land speculation), But it is generally thought that it would involve the former CPR Havelock sub. That would reduce the Montreal Toronto mileage via Ottawa, but offers very limited on line population compared tot he Kingston sub.

5. Another scenario would be to build a dedicated passenger cut off from Smiths Falls to about Gananoque east of Kingston. That might make use of some of the former CN (Canadian Northern) ROW. However the recent purchase of the former CPR trackage between Smith Falls and Brockville makes this seem less likely..


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## NS VIA Fan (Jan 24, 2016)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Harper is expected to 'officially' announce the Oct 19th election tomorrow...... but the plums have already started with this one for VIA.
> 
> http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1013689
> 
> Essentially an upgrade of the infrastructure on the Montreal-Ottawa route including Ottawa Station which will see high-level platforms installed.


Here’s the proposal with architectural renderings of the new High Level Platforms to be constructed at VIA’s Ottawa Station.

http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/sites/default/files/pubs/e07.1_-_2016-p73e-via_rail_presentation.pdf

This will be the third station in Canada with high level platforms after Gare Centrale in Montreal and Gare du Palais in Quebec City.

The dedicated platforms for Toronto’s Union-Pearson Express are also high Level


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## afigg (May 4, 2016)

Lengthy article at Railway Age on VIA's CEO plans to upgrade and electrify the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor. Rather than an expensive HSR corridor, his proposal which appears to have a good chance of getting approved and funded is for a 100 to 110 mph electrified corridor with dedicated passenger tracks with 18 trains a day service. The aggressive part is to complete it or much of the work in 3 construction seasons by late 2019. In the US, we would spend 4 years on just the EIS studies and getting approvals.

Railway Age: National Dream redux

If Canada manages to accomplish part or much of this corridor upgrade by 2019, besides the major increase in service in along the Toronto to Montreal corridor, it will have implications for boosting ridership and same day connection options for the Maple Lead and Adirondack. I would think a busier corridor in Canada would help move along proposals for Boston-Montreal and restoring Chicago-Toronto service.

An excerpt:



> As recently as the end of 2015, VIA purchased the Smiths Falls to Brockville portion of the line from CP, after investing some C$20 million in tenant improvements over the years, including new passing tracks, curve realignments and centralized traffic control. CP retains its Smiths Falls freight yard and running rights to connect with its Montreal-Toronto main line. That, perhaps, is a model for additional purchases of underutilized freight tracks between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. VIA anticipates acquiring a mixture of low-traffic freight lines and abandoned rights-of-way.
> 
> The shopping list for locomotives and passenger cars adds up to another C$1 billion. After courageous experiments with untested technologies including whining, aircraft-engined Turbo Trains and finicky LRCs, VIA will opt for tried and true trainsets that will cruise at 180 kph (110 mph).
> 
> The final billion-dollar tranche actually makes the project a more irresistible deal for a government determined to meet its international commitment to cut greenhouse gases. The Corridor will be, by far, the longest electrified railway in Canada—drawing clean, green power from existing hydroelectric facilities in Quebec’s far north.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 4, 2016)

Good luck to VIA and CEO Desjardins-Siciliano.

Lots of potential for positive spillover to this side of the border.

If they can take Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal from about 2 million riders to 7 million, using trains and R-o-W of 110 mph, that will set a great example for this country. The Midwest Regional Rail Initiative was a proposal for corridors radiating from the Chicago hub, and swapping riders when they converged on Union Station. Each 110-mph spoke would feed every other spoke, so they would be stronger together than any one or two alone. When dollars fell from the sky, Illinois was ready, Michigan was ready. But Ohio dropped the ball, Wisconsin developed mental health problems, Iowa couldn't get it together. Most of the Midwest network did not even get started.

But maybe a second windfall will come along. Then Cleveland-CHI, St Paul-CHI, Des Moines-CHI, Cincy-Indy-CHI, Duquesne-Rockford-CHI, and a couple more routes could come alive. South Of The Lake to whack another 50 minutes out of the Detroit-CHI route. And finish the CREATE projects that affect all the Chicago trains, existing and proposed.

More modestly, and in a much sooner time frame, I'm hoping that adding two more frequencies Montreal-Ottawa, as a result of the pre-election plum, will add passengers to the _Adirondack_, and then the _Vermonter_. Better times to Quebec, or to Toronto in the other direction, will appeal to tourists wanting to see more than one big city, helping those trains and the _Maple Leaf_, as afigg suggests.

I'm wondering if VIA's anticipated Billion $ order for new trains could be made to comply, more or less, with the Next Gen equipment specs in the U.S.? If so, Siemens would bid aggressively, to extend its production well beyond the few dozen cars it's building for _Brightline_. That could help bring down the costs when they bid for Amtrak's single-level equipment order (should we all live so long).


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## Anderson (May 17, 2016)

You know, there's a cagey brilliance I just realized in what he pulled in the idea of getting public sector unions to invest in the project: At least in the Canadian political landscape that likely averts any future government trying to default off on the obligations. The best comparison I could think of would be for CAHSR to fund by selling all of the bonds to CALPERS in a sweetheart deal (since I rather strongly suspect that the political cost of a multi-billion dollar default to the state pension system would be _far_ more politically risky than sticking it out, cost-be-damned).

And of course, there's apparently also a large Quebec union which owns a large chunk of Bombardier (who I'd likely tip to get any new equipment order...call it a hunch). So what you seem to have working in Canada is a tangle of union funds which all stand to get a slice of the pie here.


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## Anderson (May 18, 2016)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ontario-government-wants-high-speed-rail-proposal-by-october-mp-says-1.3440700

The story is a few months old but...well, not being from Ontario I missed it. What strikes me is that Ontario may well be set to cover Toronto-Windsor while VIA is pushing hard for Toronto-Montreal and both projects have what seems like a plausible path to happening...and would likely have benefits for one another since they'd (presumably) connect in Toronto. FWIW I suspect that "high speed rail" may be a misnomer here in some respects...and as far as I can tell, Ontario and Via are _not_ on the same page (since it's possible that a Toronto-Windsor project might not "be Via").

(What I'm _hoping_ for is that the Ontario project becomes a western-end version of what Via plans and the two thus end up, shall we say, harmonized with some through-operation and so on)


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