# Question about Metro-North



## Guest

Here's a question - will the planner new New Haven Line EMUs be able to run any faster? Or is it a track/cantenary problem? Are there any plans to increase speed at all on Metro-North? I'm always frustrated by the speed at the which the train pulls into Grand Central. It seems to me that trains arrive at Penn Station at a reasonable speed, while they only crawl into Grand Central, probably adding 5 minutes to every trip.


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## AlanB

Guest said:


> Here's a question - will the planner new New Haven Line EMUs be able to run any faster? Or is it a track/cantenary problem? Are there any plans to increase speed at all on Metro-North?


The new M8 trains won't run any faster than the current ones, that's due in part to track conditions, station distances, and the trains themselves. One simply can't accelerate to 100 MPH and still manage to stop at the next station in most cases. Then there are the many sharp curves on the line that limit speeds in many areas.



Guest said:


> I'm always frustrated by the speed at the which the train pulls into Grand Central. It seems to me that trains arrive at Penn Station at a reasonable speed, while they only crawl into Grand Central, probably adding 5 minutes to every trip.


The trains don't crawl into GCT all that much slower than they do at Penn, but one must consider that with two exceptions at GCT if an engineer somehow screws up, he/she is now driving their train into a brick wall basically. At Penn, except for 4 tracks, all tracks run through. So overshooting a platform while not good, is probably not quite as serious unless there happens to be another train crossing in front.


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## battalion51

While those last few minutes into GCT can seem excruciating, something you have to keep in mind is the track conditions. You're in a very poorly lit area with a lot of switches and tight curves. So while you're trying to get lined up to head in you don't want to be flying in at 30 or 45 MPH because one thing goes wrong you're looking at a catastrophe. Also with regards to the Engineering of the tracks, its really hard to improve something like GCT's layout because of the volume through there and the age of the space you're working in.


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## AlanB

battalion51 said:


> While those last few minutes into GCT can seem excruciating, something you have to keep in mind is the track conditions. You're in a very poorly lit area with a lot of switches and tight curves. So while you're trying to get lined up to head in you don't want to be flying in at 30 or 45 MPH because one thing goes wrong you're looking at a catastrophe. Also with regards to the Engineering of the tracks, its really hard to improve something like GCT's layout because of the volume through there and the age of the space you're working in.


Well trains don't exactly fly through the interlockings at Penn at 30 to 45 mph either, they run much slower than that. And the lighting on the East River side isn't much better than it is at GCT. Also volume has nothing to do with it, since Penn's volume is much higher than GCT's. Penn probably sees at least 3 times as many trains each day and on less tracks than GCT. On the other hand Penn has three different entrances and exits, while GCT only has one, so that can create some switching nightmares with regard to crossing traffic.


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## George Harris

paragraph removed as being incorrect.

Even if you rebuilt all the track new, it would still be in almost exactly the same locagtion and to the same curve and turnout geometry because you are constrained by the structures around it. Therefore speeds would be little different, even though the ride might be somewhat smoother. As noted, the tracks at GC are stub end. With signals, you are actually usually slower going into a stub end track, as the the safety logic requires more margin than a manual operator usually uses.


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## Dutchrailnut

Mr Harris your statement has no truth to it as all speed's in GCT are restricted speed with max of 10 mph.

There is no cab signal indication other than restricted speed in GCT and the cabsignal can not display stop.

The speeds for entire interlocking from bumper block to 59 th street is simply low due to most switches being No 6's and signals are sometimes hidden behind walls etc.


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## battalion51

Dutchrailnut, while I believe that may be true for Metro North and a number of other cab signal operations around the country, the ACSES Cab Signal system is capable of displaying a stop indication. When in ACSES territory the cab signal box is able to use the SDU (Speed Display Unit) to be able to show the speed the train must restrict to. For example on a standard cab signal box (such as the one found on most P-42's) a Medium Clear cab signal conforms to Cab Speed, Limited Clear, Medium Clear, Approach Limited, Approach Medium, and Advance Approach. However, with the SDU the Cab Signal will display the exact speed to which the Engineer has to comply to.


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## AlanB

battalion51 said:


> Dutchrailnut, while I believe that may be true for Metro North


You don't have to believe anymore. :lol: If Dutchrailnut tells you that MN cab signals don't display a stop indication you can be guarenteed that MN cab signals don't display a stop indication. When it comes to most things operationally on MN, there is little that Dutchrailnut doesn't know.


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## Dutchrailnut

Thanks for confidence Alan, with 23 years in Railroading on basicly one railroad I better know how it works.

And batalion you are correct despite the wonders of ACSES there is very little real ACES on the NEC or Amtrak wise.

Only a few places on the NEC have actual ACSES cabsignaling active, one such place is New Haven to Boston.

and even ther the Amtrak and other trains enter Boston south station at restricted speed.


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## battalion51

I didn't realize ACSES was only deployed on the Shoreline, it seemed like from what I'd read they'd activated it on the entire portion of the NEC that Amtrak owns, apparently not. Also, for the record I was not doubting Dutchrailnut, I was just stating that the technology is available, it just isn't deployed most places. B)


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## Guest

battalion51 said:


> I didn't realize ACSES was only deployed on the Shoreline, it seemed like from what I'd read they'd activated it on the entire portion of the NEC that Amtrak owns, apparently not. Also, for the record I was not doubting Dutchrailnut, I was just stating that the technology is available, it just isn't deployed most places. B)


Not to sound dumb, but what is this ACSES thing?


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## AlanB

Guest said:


> Not to sound dumb, but what is this ACSES thing?


*A*vanced *C*ivil *S*peed *E*nforcement *S*ystem.

Basically it is a system that provides cab signals and can shut down the train if the engineer fails to properly follow said signals.


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## Guest

AlanB said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to sound dumb, but what is this ACSES thing?
> 
> 
> 
> *A*vanced *C*ivil *S*peed *E*nforcement *S*ystem.
> 
> Basically it is a system that provides cab signals and can shut down the train if the engineer fails to properly follow said signals.
Click to expand...

And it's more advanced or to be preferred to other systems out there?


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## battalion51

ACSES is among the cutting edge cab signal systems. For the type of system ACSES is it's a very good system. Each signaling system out there, whether PTC, CSS, CTC, DTC, TWC is a safe and efficient system, for the application which it's being used.


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## George Harris

OK, I will bow to Dutchrailnut's superior local knowledge, and remove my first paragraph from my previous post. However, I believe that my second paragraph is still correct, unless there is room to install larger turnouts instead of the No. 6's, which I would doubt, as these are at the extreme bottom end of what a normal passenger car can negotiate and were probably used to make the track fan as short as possible. I would definitely not want to try to be running through No. 6 turnouts at any speed over about 10 mph regardless of how new or what rail section they were built in.

Dutchrailnut, are these No. 6's AREA standard, that is, either 11' 0" straight points or 13' 0" curved points or some unique design? A unique NYC design is what I would be inclined to expect, but in reality likely not too far removed from what you would get with an old AREA standard. I am curious about their geometry. If there is enough space on the inside, the radius can be increased slightly by using curved frogs, and the ride imporved by using a continuous radius through from heel of frog to point of switch, but you would need rome on the inside as it move the curve in a few inches. And this stuff is my area of expertise.


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## Dutchrailnut

No room to do anything in GCT most crossovers are no 6 english switches or puzzle switches.

The system is a crossing of many ladders to reach the many platforms in GCT.


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## Guest

What's the name of the typical New Haven line car? are those m-2s?


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## battalion51

There's a whole bunch of different M series cars running on the MNCR. I think anything from M-2 - M-7 is running out there, but Dutchrailnut would know best.


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## Dutchrailnut

New Haven line runs M2 pairs's built by Budd/GE/Vickers, they run M4 triplets built by Tokyu car company, and M6 triplets built by Morrison Knudson.

The Harlem / Hudson side runs are done by M3's built by Budd in 1983 and M7's built by Bombardier.

There are still about 30 M1a's on MNCR held as possible stadium service trains for future use.

The Push/Pull cars and Genes are used on all lines except for New Canaan where its very very rare to see push pull equipment.


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## Dinker

Dutchrailnut said:


> New Haven line runs M2 pairs's built by Budd/GE/Vickers, they run M4 triplets built by Tokyu car company, and M6 triplets built by Morrison Knudson.The Harlem / Hudson side runs are done by M3's built by Budd in 1983 and M7's built by Bombardier.
> 
> There are still about 30 M1a's on MNCR held as possible stadium service trains for future use.
> 
> The Push/Pull cars and Genes are used on all lines except for New Canaan where its very very rare to see push pull equipment.


Back in August, I saw an Amtrak locomotive with two or three ConnDot cars on the New Canaan branch. Didn't have time for a picture though. This really confused me. I thought maybe there was a probably with the cantenary, but the next train was a standard set of M-whatevers.

By the way, the siding at NC only has room for one extra train, right? This means they could not increase rush-hour frequency between GCT and NC, I suppose - there is currently a large and (for me) annoying gap between the 6:07 and the 7:08 GCT departures.


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## battalion51

Actually CDOT has leased 8 P-40's from Amtrak. CDOT was in need of more power fast, and Amtrak was able to provide units in good condition at a reasonable price that MN employees were already qualified to operate. I believe six of these units were given to MN and two to the SLE.


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## AlanB

battalion51 said:


> Actually CDOT has leased 8 P-40's from Amtrak. CDOT was in need of more power fast, and Amtrak was able to provide units in good condition at a reasonable price that MN employees were already qualified to operate. I believe six of these units were given to MN and two to the SLE.


I could be wrong here, but I think that guest Dinker was confused as to why any diesel hauled train was on the electrified New Cannan branch and not so much as to why an Amtrak P40 was on that branch.


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## battalion51

Details. Details. :lol:


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## Dinker

battalion51 said:


> Details. Details. :lol:


Well, it's so long ago now that I doubt anyone will know why, so I'm not really expecting an answer. I can give it a shot. I suppose it was around July. 28, give or take a couple of days, on a weekday in the early afternoon. I was rushing to make the train - whichever early afternoon one it was - and missed it at Talmadge Hill. I did make it on time to see it pull away from the station though and and it was an Amtrak diesel, hauling some cars with ConnDot livery. This surprised me and I suspected the cantenary must not be working but I came back in an hour for the next train and it was your ordinary New Canaan-line consist. That's about all the details I have, which is why I don't really expect anyone could explain this.


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## Dinker

Dinker said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Details. Details. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it's so long ago now that I doubt anyone will know why, so I'm not really expecting an answer. I can give it a shot. I suppose it was around July. 28, give or take a couple of days, on a weekday in the early afternoon. I was rushing to make the train - whichever early afternoon one it was - and missed it at Talmadge Hill. I did make it on time to see it pull away from the station though and and it was an Amtrak diesel, hauling some cars with ConnDot livery. This surprised me and I suspected the cantenary must not be working but I came back in an hour for the next train and it was your ordinary New Canaan-line consist. That's about all the details I have, which is why I don't really expect anyone could explain this.
Click to expand...

Come to think of it, was not necessairily a weekday. It was certainly not a peak-hour train, though, in any case.


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## Dutchrailnut

Last week they ran a two car Bombardier with P40 train due to slippery(leaf) rail.

The Electrics just could not make the hill without sand.


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## Dinker

Dutchrailnut said:


> Last week they ran a two car Bombardier with P40 train due to slippery(leaf) rail.The Electrics just could not make the hill without sand.


What hill is that? Talmadge Hill? Do P40's get better traction?


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## Dutchrailnut

The New Canaan branch is one big hill starting at stamford Mp-0 all way to New Canaan Mp-7.7 or Grove street, first 4 miles slightly less than one % rest is 1.2 % or more.

Traction was not a problem, stopping is and P40's and cab cars have sand, Mu's don't


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## AlanB

Slide though the station at New Cannan and you're in the street and well on your way into the local store fronts.

And even the engines can still slide nicely at times. I was behind a P32 AC-DM heading for Waterbury I believe a few years back. The poor engineer slide right past the Naugatuck stop. Missed it by at least 5 car lengths.  Felt like we were on a bucking bronco.


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## Dinker

Dutchrailnut said:


> Last week they ran a two car Bombardier with P40 train due to slippery(leaf) rail.The Electrics just could not make the hill without sand.


How many trains did they run like this? I commuted on Monday, Tuesday morning and Friday evening, I didn't notice this.

Another question would be, where did they get the P40's from? Unless they made all the through trains stop for a passenger transfer at Stamford, they would have needed a fair number. I suppose there must be a more slippery time of day?

Oh and thanks for all the replies. This is really a great forum. I'm glad I found it.


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## AlanB

Dinker said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last week they ran a two car Bombardier with P40 train due to slippery(leaf) rail.
> 
> The Electrics just could not make the hill without sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Another question would be, where did they get the P40's from? Unless they made all the through trains stop for a passenger transfer at Stamford, they would have needed a fair number. I suppose there must be a more slippery time of day?
Click to expand...



Well as Battalion noted above CDOT leased several of Amtrak's mothballed P40's. My guess would be that they probably stopped at Stamford and transferred them to electrics, but Dutch might know for sure.

As for slippery, it really depends on just how many leaves have come down that day. Add even a tiny bit of rain and it really gets bad. So wet, windy days would tend to be worse than dry, sunny, windless days.


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## Dinker

AlanB said:


> Well as Battalion noted above CDOT leased several of Amtrak's mothballed P40's. My guess would be that they probably stopped at Stamford and transferred them to electrics, but Dutch might know for sure.


I can't tell if I'm glad or sad that I missed this. Sounds like a bit of a pain. especially with the 7:41 out of Talmadge Hill, my train, having to stop at Stamford (it usually doesn't) and getting packed. What does ConnDOT do with these locomotives? ConnDOT doesn't operate any railway, so far as I know - the MTA runs Metro-North (with partial funding from ConnDOT) and Amtrak runs SLE (also funded by ConnDOT) but does ConnDOT actually own any equipment of its own?


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## AlanB

Dinker said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well as Battalion noted above CDOT leased several of Amtrak's mothballed P40's. My guess would be that they probably stopped at Stamford and transferred them to electrics, but Dutch might know for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't tell if I'm glad or sad that I missed this. Sounds like a bit of a pain. especially with the 7:41 out of Talmadge Hill, my train, having to stop at Stamford (it usually doesn't) and getting packed. What does ConnDOT do with these locomotives? ConnDOT doesn't operate any railway, so far as I know - the MTA runs Metro-North (with partial funding from ConnDOT) and Amtrak runs SLE (also funded by ConnDOT) but does ConnDOT actually own any equipment of its own?
Click to expand...



Well it's only a temporary thing that happens for maybe 2 or 3 weeks each fall, then things will go right back to normal.

As for your other questions, Metro North is basically a NY operation. CT pays money and helps to provide equipment for any train that runs north of Port Chester. If they stop paying, Metro North will stop running into CT. Highly unlikely that would ever happen, but that is the simple reality. So yes, CDOT does own equipment. That's one reason that some of the new P32 AC-DM engines were painted in the old New Haven colors.

One reason that the other two Metro North lines have new cars is because NY State paid for them. CT on the other hand took forever to find the money to buy new cars, and only just recently signed the contract to have the new M8 cars built. So they are still a few years away from delivery. I believe that I read some where that CT thought CDOT, is paying approximately 60% of the contract cost, while NY through Metro North pays the other 40%.


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## Dinker

AlanB said:


> I believe that I read some where that CT thought CDOT, is paying approximately 60% of the contract cost, while NY through Metro North pays the other 40%.


yes, I think that all New Haven line expenditures on done this as per some court ruling in the '80s.


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## AlanB

Oh, and with regard to SLE, you are correct Amtrak runs that for CDOT, but AFAIK CDOT owns all of that equipment. Amtrak certainly doesn't own the equipment.


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## Dinker

AlanB said:


> Amtrak certainly doesn't own the equipment.


I was always confused by this since many of the locomotives are in the Amtrak livery. Of course, many of the cars are in VRE livery (some kind of railroad!) so I suppose the livery means just about nothing. The locos must be the P40's that Battalion was talking about.


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## AlanB

Dinker said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak certainly doesn't own the equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> I was always confused by this since many of the locomotives are in the Amtrak livery. Of course, many of the cars are in VRE livery (some kind of railroad!) so I suppose the livery means just about nothing. The locos must be the P40's that Battalion was talking about.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you see an Amtrak engine pulling Metro North equipment and/or SLE equipment, then it is most likely one of the leased engines. The fact that the engines are only leased probably has something to do with why they are still in Amtrak livery. The VRE equipment I think has more to do with their rushing to get those cars on the road, and perhaps not wanting to spend the money to repaint them.


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## Dutchrailnut

The day with P40 on branch was saterday a weeek ago when high wind and rain knocked most tleefs free all at once.

Conndot owns the Following.

about 2/3th's of all M2/M4/M6 equipment.

They own 6 FL9m's in New Haven livery.

They own 4 P32acdm's in New Haven Livery.

They own 6 GP40-2h in new haven livery.

They own 11 Constitution liners (ex SPV)

They own about 48 Bombardier Push Pull Cars.

They own 33 ex VRE push pull cars.

ConnDOT is leasing 8 ill maintained P40's from Amtrak, 6 for MNCR shuttles and 2 for SLE duty.

before anyone disputes the Ill maintained, consider the 55 gallons of oil per 24 hour they use.

These 8 locomotives are to be replaced by 11 shuttle/worktrain locomotives ordered from Brookville mining in Pa.

The first 6 rebuilt VRE's are now on road in ConnDot livery:

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=20...&bydate%3A9


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## had8ley

Dutchrailnut said:


> The day with P40 on branch was saterday a weeek ago when high wind and rain knocked most tleefs free all at once.
> Conndot owns the Following.
> 
> about 2/3th's of all M2/M4/M6 equipment.
> 
> They own 6 FL9m's in New Haven livery.
> 
> They own 4 P32acdm's in New Haven Livery.
> 
> They own 6 GP40-2h in new haven livery.
> 
> They own 11 Constitution liners (ex SPV)
> 
> They own about 48 Bombardier Push Pull Cars.
> 
> They own 33 ex VRE push pull cars.
> 
> ConnDOT is leasing 8 ill maintained P40's from Amtrak, 6 for MNCR shuttles and 2 for SLE duty.
> 
> before anyone disputes the Ill maintained, consider the 55 gallons of oil per 24 hour they use.
> 
> These 8 locomotives are to be replaced by 11 shuttle/worktrain locomotives ordered from Brookville mining in Pa.
> 
> The first 6 rebuilt VRE's are now on road in ConnDot livery:
> 
> http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=20...&bydate%3A9


Dutchrailnut;

I noticed the engines noted as SLE's looking very much like the SD-45's that the freight railroads ran away from because of fuel consumption. (Wasn't there a big flap in the 70's about the SDP-45's derailing in curves?) Where did they come from? Also I can attest to the ill maintained status of the P-40's. The UP lleased a bunch after the SP merger-meltdown and PROMISED Amtrak that they would only be used in iintermodal high speed service. We switched with a pair for almost the entire length of the 92 day inspection card. Our units were dead account out of date inspections. A stack train was coming through town and the dispatcher told the crew to set out the two rear units. You guessed it~ a 200 and 300 series P-40's. They left town tired and dirty after switching around the clock for three months.


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## Dutchrailnut

Just because you see a flared radiator housing does not make them SD45's they are GP40-2h units and were built in Canada at AMF, they may have used housings from freight units.

as for P40's the units can not have been in 200 or 300 numbers as P40's are and always were numbered in 800 series.


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## had8ley

Dutchrailnut said:


> Just because you see a flared radiator housing does not make them SD45's they are GP40-2h units and were built in Canada at AMF, they may have used housings from freight units.
> as for P40's the units can not have been in 200 or 300 numbers as P40's are and always were numbered in 800 series.


Sorry...I've never seen a passenger unit with the flares. Nothing like those units has ever run in this area that I know of after the SDP-45's left. Just what were the 200 and 300's ?


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## AlanB

had8ley said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you see a flared radiator housing does not make them SD45's they are GP40-2h units and were built in Canada at AMF, they may have used housings from freight units.
> 
> as for P40's the units can not have been in 200 or 300 numbers as P40's are and always were numbered in 800 series.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry...I've never seen a passenger unit with the flares. Nothing like those units has ever run in this area that I know of after the SDP-45's left. Just what were the 200 and 300's ?
Click to expand...

The 200 - 400 series was largely used by the F40 series.

F40PH 200-228

F40PHR 229-409

F40PH 410-415


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## had8ley

AlanB said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you see a flared radiator housing does not make them SD45's they are GP40-2h units and were built in Canada at AMF, they may have used housings from freight units.
> 
> as for P40's the units can not have been in 200 or 300 numbers as P40's are and always were numbered in 800 series.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry...I've never seen a passenger unit with the flares. Nothing like those units has ever run in this area that I know of after the SDP-45's left. Just what were the 200 and 300's ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 200 - 400 series was largely used by the F40 series.
> 
> F40PH 200-228
> 
> F40PHR 229-409
> 
> F40PH 410-415
Click to expand...

Alan;

The F will get you everytime...


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## AlanB

had8ley said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 200 - 400 series was largely used by the F40 series.
> 
> F40PH 200-228
> 
> F40PHR 229-409
> 
> F40PH 410-415
> 
> 
> 
> Alan;
> 
> The F will get you everytime...
Click to expand...

That would make more sense too, since doing switching ops with a P40 could be pretty interesting, since a P40 looks just like the P42's that currently haul most Amtrak trains today. There are no railings or steps to stand on and backing up is lots of fun too. The F40 would be far more suited to switching ops on the other hand.

By the way, just as a side note, the current P42 numbers actually invade the F40 range, since they run up to 209. However, since all of the Amtrak F40's have been retired, demotored, or sold, it doesn't create a problem.


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## had8ley

AlanB said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 200 - 400 series was largely used by the F40 series.
> 
> F40PH 200-228
> 
> F40PHR 229-409
> 
> F40PH 410-415
> 
> 
> 
> Alan;
> 
> The F will get you everytime...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would make more sense too, since doing switching ops with a P40 could be pretty interesting, since a P40 looks just like the P42's that currently haul most Amtrak trains today. There are no railings or steps to stand on and backing up is lots of fun too. The F40 would be far more suited to switching ops on the other hand.
> 
> By the way, just as a side note, the current P42 numbers actually invade the F40 range, since they run up to 209. However, since all of the Amtrak F40's have been retired, demotored, or sold, it doesn't create a problem.
Click to expand...

Alan;

Thanks for the engine clarification. I just ran them until they burned up, broke down or got us to the away from home terminal. I guess the lettering and numbering is something I never paid much mind to. The SD-45 was one of my favorites so that's why I inquired as to the look alike engine. I'm sure you see them all the time. Those F-40's had the same ladder climb that the P-40's have and it's straight up.


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## battalion51

AlanB said:


> By the way, just as a side note, the current P42 numbers actually invade the F40 range, since they run up to 209. However, since all of the Amtrak F40's have been retired, demotored, or sold, it doesn't create a problem.


 Actually Alan, the highest the P-42's go is 207. Amtrak does still have a few F-40's hanging around on its property, supposedly some of these still hanging around are going to be converted to Cabbage to be used in Michigan and Illinois service where there is a need for a cab on each end of the train.


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## AlanB

battalion51 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, just as a side note, the current P42 numbers actually invade the F40 range, since they run up to 209. However, since all of the Amtrak F40's have been retired, demotored, or sold, it doesn't create a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Alan, the highest the P-42's go is 207.
Click to expand...

Oops, slight slip of the finger.



battalion51 said:


> Amtrak does still have a few F-40's hanging around on its property, supposedly some of these still hanging around are going to be converted to Cabbage to be used in Michigan and Illinois service where there is a need for a cab on each end of the train.


They may be hanging around, but they are not on the active roster meaning that Amtrak considers them retired and therefore they don't cause conflicts with the current "active" engines.


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## [email protected]

<_< <_< Do the Constitution Liners - Former SPV2000 - still operate on the ShoreLine East RR?

I rode them with my wife in the Summer of 2004.

I have been told Multiple times that they have "Little or No Historical Valve" and would be sold as Scrap -

when they are done being used.


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## Dutchrailnut

[email protected] said:


> <_< <_< Do the Constitution Liners - Former SPV2000 - still operate on the ShoreLine East RR? I rode them with my wife in the Summer of 2004.
> 
> I have been told Multiple times that they have "Little or No Historical Valve" and would be sold as Scrap -
> 
> when they are done being used.


Yes their still being operated, as museum stuff they have no value, and as far as spare parts their a nightmare.

expect them to be stored or scrapped after retirement or replacement by the Mafersa cars CDOT bought.


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## [email protected]

Dutchrailnut said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> <_< <_< Do the Constitution Liners - Former SPV2000 - still operate on the ShoreLine East RR?
> 
> I rode them with my wife in the Summer of 2004.
> 
> I have been told Multiple times that they have "Little or No Historical Valve" and would be sold as Scrap -
> 
> when they are done being used.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes their still being operated, as museum stuff they have no value, and as far as spare parts their a nightmare.
> 
> expect them to be stored or scrapped after retirement or replacement by the Mafersa cars CDOT bought.
Click to expand...

I talked to a former Budd Company employee who worked on the SPV 2000's. He didn't tell me what way he worked on them. It was his project he said. And....They have - "Little or No Historical value" - yet, all the Books about Budd / RDC's mention them. They have one in the Eastern Ct RR musuem. They end up on display in all types of pictures about Railroads : Internet, Books, Videos and Other venues. - A point to Ponder.


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## Dutchrailnut

As SPV's they may have historical value but as constitution liner they are no longer SPV's and can not be restored as such, so these COACHES have no historical value.


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## [email protected]

I see. I hope that one of the railroad musuems change Their Minds and take the Constitution Liners anyway.

I hope that they don't end up like the SPV's at Croton Hudson, NY along side the tracks and Trashed.

OR WORSE SCRAPPED.


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## Dutchrailnut

[email protected] said:


> I see. I hope that one of the railroad musuems change Their Minds and take the Constitution Liners anyway.I hope that they don't end up like the SPV's at Croton Hudson, NY along side the tracks and Trashed.
> 
> OR WORSE SCRAPPED.


Why would a museum save cars with no historical value that will drain their Cash by rate of few thousand dollars per year for maintenance/?? ???? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:


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