# GO Trains to London??



## NS VIA Fan (Aug 2, 2021)

Wonder what this is all about? It's certainly encroaching into VIA territory!

GO was running some test trains July31/Aug1 between Toronto and London on the north line via Guelph, Kitchener and Stratford. GO already reaches Kitchener at 100 km out.......a London extension would add another 95 km.










GO Transit train spotted in downtown London, Ont. Saturday


Londoners are no strangers to trains in the city, but this one certainly turned some heads Saturday.




london.ctvnews.ca


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## jiml (Aug 2, 2021)




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## MARC Rider (Aug 2, 2021)

When I first saw the title of this post, I thought that maybe one of the UK rail operators had purchased some surplus Canadian trains to operate in London, England.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 2, 2021)

jiml said:


>


That's some commute! Do they think it's California??


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 2, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> When I first saw the title of this post, I thought that maybe one of the UK rail operators had purchased some surplus Canadian trains to operate in London, England.



I know there's a few here that would like to send the Renaissance cars back to the UK


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## jiml (Aug 3, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> When I first saw the title of this post, I thought that maybe one of the UK rail operators had purchased some surplus Canadian trains to operate in London, England.


Yeah, and the intermediate place names mentioned in the OP would do nothing to discourage that thought.


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## jiml (Aug 3, 2021)

Line I is the route being discussed (CN/Kitchener GO) and Line F is the parallel CP line from Toronto (Milton-Cambridge GO) also under consideration for extended service.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 3, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> That's some commute! Do they think it's California??


Well, the distance between Perryville, MD and Washington is 120 km, and there's a similar distance between Martinsburg, WV and Washington, and MARC has service on both lines.
The Metro-North Port Jervis line is 140 km. The New Haven Line is 119 km.


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## jiml (Aug 3, 2021)

Having travelled on the primary highway between Toronto and London (ON) this past weekend, it is a massive construction project that will easily last years, not months. Even on a weekend the delays were bad - I can only imagine what a weekday rush hour in either direction would look like. Extended train service can't come fast enough and will likely be a reality before the highway widening is finished.


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## jis (Aug 3, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, the distance between Perryville, MD and Washington is 120 km, and there's a similar distance between Martinsburg, WV and Washington, and MARC has service on both lines.
> The Metro-North Port Jervis line is 140 km. The New Haven Line is 119 km.


And then there is LIRR Montauk - close to 100 miles as the crow flies between Jamaica NY and Montauk. 107 miles (172km) by road, and close to that by LIRR. Going from New York adds another 10 or so miles (16km)


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 3, 2021)

jiml said:


> Line I is the route being discussed (CN/Kitchener GO) and Line F is the parallel CP line from Toronto (Milton-Cambridge GO) also under consideration for extended service.
> View attachment 23832




From the map.....it looks like a potential GO service might also be aimed at the commuter heading into London (metro pop: half million)........a reverse commute.

The Line 'G' Route on the map is similar to the long gone _London & Port Stanley_ Electric Interurban. It connected in St Thomas with New York Central trains between Detroit and New York.


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## jiml (Aug 3, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> From the map.....it looks like a potential GO service might also be aimed at the commuter heading into London (metro pop: half million)........a reverse commute.
> 
> The Line 'G' Route on the map is similar to the long gone _London & Port Stanley_ Electric Interurban. It connected in St Thomas with New York Central trains between Detroit and New York.


Agreed. I wondered if a couple of these might be potential light rail in former ROW. There's also an element of London saying "Hey, look at us Ontario... we're a big city too." without any immediate need for some of the service.


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## Urban Sky (Aug 3, 2021)

jiml said:


> Line I is the route being discussed (CN/Kitchener GO) and Line F is the parallel CP line from Toronto (Milton-Cambridge GO) also under consideration for extended service.
> View attachment 23832


Who is the author of this map and has any of it been ever discussed outside of railway entusiast forums like this one?


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## jiml (Sep 15, 2021)

GO service to London starts October 18.


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## CTANut (Sep 15, 2021)

The South Shore Line runs from Chicago to South Bend. It is 140 km long.


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## jiml (Sep 16, 2021)

To supplement Post #14 above,






Southwestern Ontario


Amplifying transit connections within the Southwestern Ontario region, and beyond.



www.metrolinx.com





Actual schedule is TBA, but rumour has one morning frequency eastbound and one evening westbound with more added on demand (likely in 2022). GO's "tap and go" ticket collection will not be used on the route extension, rather passengers must buy e-tickets online. According to GO, here are the trip times:

Trips between London and Kitchener will take about two hours


Trips between London and Toronto will take about four hours
Scheduled departure times from either end will have a lot to do with the success or failure of the project.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 16, 2021)

jiml said:


> To supplement Post #14 above,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's some commute, but it will make it better for those wanting to visit "Toronto the Good" that don't want to drive or fly.( as you say, depending on the times)


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## Willbridge (Sep 16, 2021)

In 1972 there were 8 weekday trains on CN between Toronto and London. While congestion and population grew, service declined. Ontario plans to coordinate with VIA Rail's legacy service but they won't have to deal with some of VIA's problems.


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## Urban Sky (Sep 16, 2021)

jiml said:


> To supplement Post #14 above,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From CTV News:


> The pilot project will see a train leaving from London daily at 5:20 in the morning arriving at union at 9:15 a.m. and one return train leaving Toronto at 4:19 in the afternoon arriving in London at 8:17 p.m.


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> That's some commute, but it will make it better for those wanting to visit "Toronto the Good" that don't want to drive or fly.( as you say, depending on the times)



Your wording makes it seem like they don't have VIA as an option. The trips are generally between 2:07 and 2:25 long, and start at $37 for coach, and $75 for business (and their soft product in business is worth it).

Considering Toronto-Niagara on GOTransit is $21.15 for a cash fare, and that's for about a 2:20 minute trip on transit, I'm not sure I'd even want to think about what they would ask for London-Toronto, with it being an estimated 4 hours. $28-$30? I'd _gladly_ spend the extra $7-$9, ride VIA, and cut my trip time in half.

Now for those who need to commute daily, the price is much better, assuming they would have a PRESTO card. $17.79/one-way, until after you complete 35 trips in a month, then it's $2.40/one-way (for trips 36-40), then free afterward.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 16, 2021)

Triley said:


> Your wording makes it seem like they don't have VIA as an option. The trips are generally between 2:07 and 2:25 long, and start at $37 for coach, and $75 for business (and their soft product in business is worth it).
> 
> Considering Toronto-Niagara on GOTransit is $21.15 for a cash fare, and that's for about a 2:20 minute trip on transit, I'm not sure I'd even want to think about what they would ask for London-Toronto, with it being an estimated 4 hours. $28-$30? I'd _gladly_ spend the extra $7-$9, ride VIA, and cut my trip time in half.
> 
> Now for those who need to commute daily, the price is much better, assuming they would have a PRESTO card. $17.79/one-way, until after you complete 35 trips in a month, then it's $2.40/one-way (for trips 36-40), then free afterward.


Thanks for the update Triley. I used to ride VIA between Windsor and Oakville/Toronto, but it's been several years since my last ride.

Very familiar with the GO Trains between Toronto and Niagara, didn't realize the fares had gotten pricey( even with the exchange rate), but knew Canada is like the NEC when it comes to Rail Fares.


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## Urban Sky (Sep 16, 2021)

Triley said:


> Your wording makes it seem like they don't have VIA as an option. The trips are generally between 2:07 and 2:25 long, and start at $37 for coach, and $75 for business (and their soft product in business is worth it).


To add the cost of VIA's Commuter Pass, for Toronto and London it's $590+tx for 20 trips, thus $29.50 per trip before and $33.33 after taxes...


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## jiml (Sep 19, 2021)

Some further research on this route might indicate that London is not the primary target for this route and it's about the intermediate stops - none of which had a place to park a train overnight. That makes a lot more sense for all the valid reasons pointed out in others' posts above. I wouldn't be surprised that if Stratford or St. Mary's showed potential, money would be allocated to making one of them the western terminus of this route - at least in the short term.

Metrolinx (GO) is also exploring the extension of their service on the CP Milton line to Cambridge, which could also terminate in (you guessed it) London, with much shorter trip times.


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## Urban Sky (Sep 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> Some further research on this route might indicate that London is not the primary target for this route and it's about the intermediate stops - none of which had a place to park a train overnight. That makes a lot more sense for all the valid reasons pointed out in others' posts above. I wouldn't be surprised that if Stratford or St. Mary's showed potential, money would be allocated to making one of them the western terminus of this route - at least in the short term.


To the best of my knowledge, no such layover facilities exist in London either...



> Metrolinx (GO) is also exploring the extension of their service on the CP Milton line to Cambridge, which could also terminate in (you guessed it) London, with much shorter trip times.


The two main problem of extending the Milton services are the host railroad (the Galt Sub is part of CP's Toronto-Chicago corridor and CP is similarly protective as CN is of its Halton and Dundas Subdivisions) and the lack of population centers other than Cambridge and Woodstock (note that Milton-Cambridge is 40 km and Cambridge-Woodstock-London even 90 km), which is why Metrolinx is now seeking to link Cambridge via Guelph and the Fergus Subdivision rather than Milton and the Galt Subdivision (just like they seem to bank on the Guelph Sub to reach into London):





https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile...line-could-be-routed-through-guelph-1.5423393


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## jiml (Sep 19, 2021)

Urban Sky said:


> To the best of my knowledge, no such layover facilities exist in London either...
> 
> 
> The two main problem of extending the Milton services are the host railroad (the Galt Sub is part of CP's Toronto-Chicago corridor and CP is similarly protective as CN is of its Halton and Dundas Subdivisions) and the lack of population centers other than Cambridge and Woodstock (note that Milton-Cambridge is 40 km and Cambridge-Woodstock-London even 90 km), which is why Metrolinx is now seeking to link Cambridge via Guelph and the Fergus Subdivision rather than Milton and the Galt Subdivision (just like they seem to bank on the Guelph Sub to reach into London):
> ...


I don't disagree with everything you said and am well aware of the ownership and priority of the lines, with the same expectation between Cambridge and Guelph. I even have the same map. That is why I was surprised at the announcement this past week well ahead of the schedule. As you and others have pointed out, it makes almost no sense from both a cost and time perspective. What I posted was a summary of answers from people who should know what is going on. 

A question for you: Is there a chance that VIA will reroute the Sarnia trains on the more direct tracks between Toronto and London in light of the GO involvement on the northern route? Just curious...


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## Urban Sky (Sep 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> A question for you: Is there a chance that VIA will reroute the Sarnia trains on the more direct tracks between Toronto and London in light of the GO involvement on the northern route? Just curious...


I think that considering the sorry state of the Northern Route, Metrolinx is much better placed (and funded) to provide a passenger rail service there which is relevant and useful and I therefore believe that Metrolinx' expansion towards London allows VIA to refocus and improve its SWO service...


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## jiml (Sep 20, 2021)

Urban Sky said:


> I think that considering the sorry state of the Northern Route, Metrolinx is much better placed (and funded) to provide a passenger rail service there which is relevant and useful and I therefore believe that Metrolinx' expansion towards London allows VIA to refocus and improve its SWO service...


That's a really good answer! Have you considered politics?


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