# Amtrak: Toronto - Vancouver



## jamesontheroad (Jul 26, 2006)

Here's a little hypothetical trip for you... I like the VIA Rail 'Canadian' (more so than most Amtrak LD trains in fact) but as it's pitched for tourists it's a little pricey, and does spend rather a lot of time passing through monotonous forests and lakes of northern Ontario. A lot of locals I speak to (here in Montréal) say they'd love to travel to Vancouver by train, but it's just too pricey.

But if you don't mind taking ten hours more, you can save $$$ riding Toronto - Vancouver, BC by Amtrak instead of VIA Rail...

dep. TWO 08:30 train # 64

arr. BUF 12:55

dep. BUF 23:30 train # 49

arr. CHI 09:05

dep. CHI 14:15 train # 7

arr. SEA 10:20 (two days later)

dep. SEA 13:15 bus 8900

arr. VAC 17:00

For a test booking in November the cheapest available adult fare (low season Comfort Supersaver) on VIA Rail is CAD $439.90 (about USD $387). On Amtrak (as above) it's USD $204, about $180 less 

Has anyone done this route? Amtrak.com can't price TWO-VAC as a through connection, even though it exists without any station layovers. Is this out of politeness to VIA Rail?

*j* :blink:


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## jamesontheroad (Jul 26, 2006)

[ correction ] contrary to what I said here before, this works both east and west, it is Montréal that cannot be reached eastbound from Chicago

*j*


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## Anthony (Jul 26, 2006)

That would be a *long time* in coach without a shower!


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## jamesontheroad (Jul 26, 2006)

(if you want your creature comforts I'm sure Amtrak could beat VIA for sleeper fares too !)

*j*


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## AlanB (Jul 26, 2006)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> [ correction ] contrary to what I said here before, this works both east and west, it is Montréal that cannot be reached eastbound from Chicago
> *j*


You can still make the connection going east bound, you'll just have a long wait in Buffalo. Or if you prefer, depending on just how late the Lake Shore is, connect further east to the Maple Leaf.

Book your tickets for a connection in say Syracuse. Then monitor how late the LSL is running, and if things start getting close, just jump off at an earlier station.


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## jamesontheroad (Jul 26, 2006)

AlanB said:


> jamesbrownontheroad said:
> 
> 
> > [ correction ] contrary to what I said here before, this works both east and west, it is Montréal that cannot be reached eastbound from Chicago
> ...


Sorry - I mean an east bound connection to Toronto is ok, but not to Montréal. You'd have to overnight in Schenectady, Albany or New York (depending on how much cash you can spare for a hotel) to make the connection with the Adirondack, which is already way north by the time the LSL meets its route.

*j* :blink:


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## creddick (Jul 26, 2006)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> (if you want your creature comforts I'm sure Amtrak could beat VIA for sleeper fares too !)
> *j*


Oh my yes. I looked at The Canadian for my up coming trip to Vancouver and back to Michigan. Granted, I was looking at a bedroom on the Canadian. The cost was over $7300 round trip for my wife and I. I did book Amtrak, a bedroom, and the cost is about $2600 round trip. I did not book a round trip at the time. I had to book two seperate trips as I didn't know I was making the trip out by train at first. I though I was driving out. However, with the price of gas, hotels, etc. it was much cheaper to take the train. And, when I booked the trip out, it was cheaper to book a one way than it was to rebook a round trip. Also, I am taking the train to Vancouver but returning from Seattle. We're going on a cruise to Alaska and when we get back to Vancouver, I have a car rented to driver to Seattle and do some things there. Needless to say, the trip of a lifetime.


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## VentureForth (Nov 16, 2007)

I just ran the numbers again for an Eastbound trip between VAC and TWO and MTL. Amtrak tend to be around half the price of the VIA journey $270ish vs $540ish for coach and $680ish VS $1360ish for a private sleeper, albiet with a few more transfers. Total ride to TWO is only about 5 hours longer via Amtrak. With the Canadian Dollar at par now, this is even a greater savings.

All the way to MTL, the price really doesn't change much. Amtrak is about 10 hours slower. Both routes require an overnight stay in an hotel - Toronto with VIA and Schenectady with Amtrak. If $6-700 is enough savings, and you don't mind the multiple transfers and aren't concernec about two border crossings, then it's sure worth considering.

Of course, right now the North American Rail Pass is available for $709 which is more expensive than riding Amtrak round trip, but it's cheaper than than riding Amtrak one way and Via back. (Based on if you're going coach)


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## Guest_mechanic_* (Nov 20, 2007)

VentureForth said:


> I just ran the numbers again for an Eastbound trip between VAC and TWO and MTL. Amtrak tend to be around half the price of the VIA journey $270ish vs $540ish for coach and $680ish VS $1360ish for a private sleeper, albiet with a few more transfers. Total ride to TWO is only about 5 hours longer via Amtrak. With the Canadian Dollar at par now, this is even a greater savings.
> All the way to MTL, the price really doesn't change much. Amtrak is about 10 hours slower. Both routes require an overnight stay in an hotel - Toronto with VIA and Schenectady with Amtrak. If $6-700 is enough savings, and you don't mind the multiple transfers and aren't concernec about two border crossings, then it's sure worth considering.
> 
> Of course, right now the North American Rail Pass is available for $709 which is more expensive than riding Amtrak round trip, but it's cheaper than than riding Amtrak one way and Via back. (Based on if you're going coach)


Via's pricing for sleepers on the Canadian has been roughly double Amtrak for equivalent accomodation for some time. The food and service are exceptionally good on the Canadian but simply not affordable for the average person. The train is geared toward the well to do tourist. I also understand that pricing on the train is set by the Treasury Board here which may explain the outrageous cost. Any future cross county trips I take will be on Amtrak.

Inasfar as leaving from Toronto on the Maple Leaf to catch westward trains to Chicago, the big headache is the scheduled 2 hour stop at Niagara Falls, NY for customs. This can easily stretch to 3 hours, very annoying indeed, especially when Grehound takes 30 miniutes, tops. I guess Greyhound has more buddies in Congress? I have yet to try this going from Toronto but in theory, one could catch Greyhound at 8 pm to downtown Buffalo, cab it to Depew and catch the LSL to Chicago at 11:55 with over an hour to spare. I have done it successfully the other way around.


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## VentureForth (Nov 20, 2007)

Guest_mechanic_* said:


> Via's pricing for sleepers on the Canadian has been roughly double Amtrak for equivalent accomodation for some time. The food and service are exceptionally good on the Canadian but simply not affordable for the average person. The train is geared toward the well to do tourist. I also understand that pricing on the train is set by the Treasury Board here which may explain the outrageous cost. Any future cross county trips I take will be on Amtrak.


Can you can an onboard sleeper upgrade? IE: Board with a North American Rail Pass and perhaps get a discounted sleeper for a portion of the trip?


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2007)

Guest_mechanic_* said:


> Inasfar as leaving from Toronto on the Maple Leaf to catch westward trains to Chicago, the big headache is the scheduled 2 hour stop at Niagara Falls, NY for customs. This can easily stretch to 3 hours, very annoying indeed, especially when Grehound takes 30 miniutes, tops. I guess Greyhound has more buddies in Congress? I have yet to try this going from Toronto but in theory, one could catch Greyhound at 8 pm to downtown Buffalo, cab it to Depew and catch the LSL to Chicago at 11:55 with over an hour to spare. I have done it successfully the other way around.


While I'm hardly the biggest fan of how our customs people work the Amtrak trains, in their defence I must say that clearing a bus that can hold maybe 50 to 60 people should take a lot less than clearing a train that can carry potentially 300+ passengers.


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## Guest_mechanic_* (Nov 20, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Guest_mechanic_* said:
> 
> 
> > Inasfar as leaving from Toronto on the Maple Leaf to catch westward trains to Chicago, the big headache is the scheduled 2 hour stop at Niagara Falls, NY for customs. This can easily stretch to 3 hours, very annoying indeed, especially when Grehound takes 30 miniutes, tops. I guess Greyhound has more buddies in Congress? I have yet to try this going from Toronto but in theory, one could catch Greyhound at 8 pm to downtown Buffalo, cab it to Depew and catch the LSL to Chicago at 11:55 with over an hour to spare. I have done it successfully the other way around.
> ...



It's a problem with both the US and Canadian systems, no slight intended toward agents on both sides, who have their hands full. IMHO, 2-3 hours delay every trip is unacceptable and is a strong discouragement to rail travel. If a rabid rail enthusiast such as myself is going to take the bus to Buffalo because it makes things quicker and more convenient for Amtrak connections, what about the public? I'm also old enough to remember pre-VIA and Amtrak where customs came aboard the trains before they hit the border and there was minimal delay. Surely there must be some way to improve the system? It's not just the Maple Leaf either, this was a huge problem with the now defunct International at Sarnia / Port Huron. Anyone ridden the Adirondack lately, how are the border delays there?


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## Guest_mechanic_* (Nov 20, 2007)

VentureForth said:


> Guest_mechanic_* said:
> 
> 
> > Via's pricing for sleepers on the Canadian has been roughly double Amtrak for equivalent accomodation for some time. The food and service are exceptionally good on the Canadian but simply not affordable for the average person. The train is geared toward the well to do tourist. I also understand that pricing on the train is set by the Treasury Board here which may explain the outrageous cost. Any future cross county trips I take will be on Amtrak.
> ...



Not sure about discounts but the Canadian only runs 3 days per week and roomettes, bedrooms and drawing rooms are typically sold out months in advance. Upper and lower berths have higher availability.


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## MrFSS (Nov 20, 2007)

How do the custom agents check the luggage in the luggage car when the train crosses the border? Or, is it even checked?


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2007)

MrFSS said:


> How do the custom agents check the luggage in the luggage car when the train crosses the border? Or, is it even checked?


Of the three remaining Amtrak trains that cross the border, only the Cascades offers checked bags. I'm not sure how things are handled southbound, but from all reports that I've read, going northbound you get off the train in Vancover collect your luggage and then go through Canadian Customs.

I think that I recall hearing that US is also done before boarding the southbound train, but I'm not positive about that.


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2007)

Guest_mechanic_* said:


> Anyone ridden the Adirondack lately, how are the border delays there?


I've only done the Adirondack going to Montreal, never returned on it so far. Canadian Customs took just about two hours to clear our train, which is what is built into the schedule anyhow.

I've returned twice to the US on the Leaf and crossed into Canada once on the Leaf. In my experience, not withstanding my very unfortunate experience with Canadian Customs while driving across the border almost two years ago, Canadian Customs officials seem to do a better job at making the process as efficient as possible.

Not that said, when I came back on the Leaf this past summer, I thought that the US people did a pretty good job at clearing the train. While they did take a little longer than the allotted two hours, it wasn't that much longer and we were only being held while they dealt with a few people taken off the train for fingerprinting and such. We were actually allowed to get off the train and walk around a bit, while we waited for them to complete things. And part of the problem was that a few people had not brought US money to pay for the finger printing process, so they had to convert money with the cafe attendant and other passengers.

Now while I disagree with the US policy that the fees must be paid in US dollars and that one can't use a credit card to pay those fees, that isn't the fault of the agents performing the customs work. That is the fault of those who set policy and the travelers who didn't bother to learn what the US policy is.


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## Penn Central (Nov 20, 2007)

AlanB said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > How do the custom agents check the luggage in the luggage car when the train crosses the border? Or, is it even checked?
> ...


Well, I took the Cascades 4-5 years ago, but I doubt procedures have changed that much. Coming into Canada, you collect your baggage, and proceed through customs. Coming back, I assume they check the baggage in Canada, because it wasn't checked when I got off at Edmonds. Coming back, shortly after crossing the border back into the US, we pulled over onto a siding in Blaine, Washington. There we sat for 45 minutes while US officials interviewed each and every person on the train. By comparison, we got through Canadian customs in about 10 minutes. Of course, that's not really a fair comparison, since the Canadians can do their work in the station, but it still buzzes around in your head while you wonder when the US officials will ever finish and the train can start moving again.


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## GG-1 (Nov 21, 2007)

AlanB said:


> but from all reports that I've read, going northbound you get off the train in Vancover collect your luggage and then go through Canadian Customs.


Aloha

My trip northbound did just this some years back


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## Rafi (Nov 21, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Guest_mechanic_* said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone ridden the Adirondack lately, how are the border delays there?
> ...


My wife and I just completed a round trip in the Adirondack a week ago and were pleasantly surprised at the Customs experience. My wife, in fact, now _prefers_ to cross the Canadian border by train for the sheer convenience of sitting in her seat reading a magazine while other passengers are screened and while she awaits her turn.

Here's how it happened for us:

Heading north into Canada, we stopped just past the border and three Canadian customs agents boarded. They interviewed each person on board and compared it to their manifest (which I can only assume Amtrak provided). The impression I got was that if the information you brought along matched what they had on their manifest, they asked two one or two random questions for screening (where do you live, where were you born, why are you coming to Canada, etc etc), and if you had any bags asked what you were carrying. They only gave one person in our car any "additional time" in the screening (not sure what was up, but it was settled in a matter of minutes), and we were on our way in about 35 mins (the train was running about 30 mins late to begin with, so we ended up gaining some time back). I should note that the train load seemed rather light (it was a Saturday), with only one car being about 2/3 filled and the rest being maybe 1/4 filled.

Coming back into the US, it was much the same procedure in Rouses Point, NY. The US agents boarded, pretty much asked the same questions, and we were out of there in about 45 mins (in fact, they finished early, so the conductors allowed folks to step off to have a smoke and look at the old, abandoned Rouses Point station for about 10-15 mins). The trip back was on a Tuesday and again, the train wasn't too crowded.

-Rafi

P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.


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## MrFSS (Nov 21, 2007)

Rafi said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Guest_mechanic_* said:
> ...


Thanks for the comments and pictures. Isn't it nice to have a dome you can see out the front? That's the way dome cars should be!!


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## AlanB (Nov 21, 2007)

Rafi said:


> P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.


I almost was on that very same train, although I was only going to go part way, getting off for the Thruway connection to Lake Placid.

Sadly I had to cancel at the last minute, just couldn't take the time off.


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## wayman (Nov 21, 2007)

Rafi said:


> P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.


"... the last run... Period"? I hope you mean just for the fall 2007 stint on the Adirondack. They're not pulling the car from service, are they?


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## AlanB (Nov 21, 2007)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.
> ...


No, not that I'm aware of. It was just the last run on the Adirondack for this year. Rumors are that I will be back next fall too, but then that is still a long ways off.


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## Rafi (Nov 22, 2007)

MrFSS said:


> Thanks for the comments and pictures. Isn't it nice to have a dome you can see out the front? That's the way dome cars should be!!


I tell ya... being able to see over the engine and to see the cars snaking behind you makes all of the difference in the world. It's hard to describe, but you really have a better sense of placement and direction when traveling that way as opposed to your view only being limited to the sides of the train. I really feel like I know that terrain now having ridden in that car, and I hope that won't be my last trip in that car. 

Rafi


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## Rafi (Nov 22, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.
> ...


Wow! It's a shame we couldn't make that happen. There were a number of rail buffs on both of those runs, incidentally. I was wondering if anyone was on this board but didn't have the nerve to speak up. <grin>


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## Rafi (Nov 22, 2007)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Part of the reason we took the trip was because the Great Dome was ending its run on the route. We had the pleasure to ride in the car on both runs (with Tuesday being the last run for the car, period); if anyone's interested in pictures and video, they can be found here.
> ...


No, no... they're not pulling it from service as far as I'm aware. I should have been a little more clear—it was the last time this year that the car was running. I hadn't heard about it running next year yet like Alan, and while nothing's for sure in the world of Amtrak, the impression I got from the conductors on the train was that the dome was very, very well received and really helped spur some ticket sales. So if the car makes a return appearance next year, I wouldn't be surprised. The conductors said that they were even considering extending the run for this fall due to the amount of interest (and some late newspaper coverage), but decided not to due to worries about components freezing up as the weather got cooler.

That said, I really hope they'd consider running the car on the Cardinal for a period of time if it makes it back east next year. [EDIT: And I just realized that even if it did make it east, to get it moved between ALB and WAS probably means a move back to Chicago anyway on the LSL due to the NEC tunnels. Ah, well.]

Rafi


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## wayman (Nov 22, 2007)

Rafi said:


> [EDIT: And I just realized that even if it did make it east, to get it moved between ALB and WAS probably means a move back to Chicago anyway on the LSL due to the NEC tunnels. Ah, well.]
> Rafi


That brings to mind another question: how do they move the car around the system? Will they just add it to a westbound LSL, and then the Chief or Zephyr in Chicago to get it back to the left coast, and if so will there be a lucky few people who get to ride it on those routes? Or would they close it off to passengers for such movement?


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## AlanB (Nov 22, 2007)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > [EDIT: And I just realized that even if it did make it east, to get it moved between ALB and WAS probably means a move back to Chicago anyway on the LSL due to the NEC tunnels. Ah, well.]
> ...


It came east on the LSL, and I think the Chief to Chicago. AFAIK, it was simply deadheaded and not open to the public.

Interestingly enough, it came through Chicago on the very weekend that we held the gathering in Chicago. Sadly it was gone on the LSL before we got our tour of the yard.


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