# Crying Shame the Sunset Doesn't Run East of NOL



## rrdude (Aug 11, 2011)

After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.

Economic sense? Not gonna go there.

Operational sense?. Less equipment.

Political sense? Apparently the Gulf Coast has none............

Please, this topic has been "discussed to death" and has been beaten to death. If it happens, it happens. But no need to post............


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## leemell (Aug 11, 2011)

rrdude said:


> After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.
> 
> Economic sense? Not gonna go there.
> 
> ...


Then why this post other than to just vent.


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## zepherdude (Aug 11, 2011)

rrdude

its not criminal

it is just not gonna happen

so why bring it up


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## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2011)

Apparently Amtrak doesn't believe that they can make any money on the extended Sunset Ltd from NOL to ORL. The trackage is in place and supporting freight traffic. Some upgrading to the stations and signaling on the route may be needed but it can be good to go for passenger service in short order.

There might be some demand, Florida supports it but Amtrak is convinced that there isn't, and the states along the line aren't willing to subsidize the costs of restoring service. Dead issue for now, but if passenger rail keeps growing at its current pace who knows?


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## had8ley (Aug 12, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Apparently Amtrak doesn't believe that they can make any money on the extended Sunset Ltd from NOL to ORL. The trackage is in place and supporting freight traffic. Some upgrading to the stations and signaling on the route may be needed but it can be good to go for passenger service in short order.
> 
> There might be some demand, Florida supports it but Amtrak is convinced that there isn't, and the states along the line aren't willing to subsidize the costs of restoring service. Dead issue for now, but if passenger rail keeps growing at its current pace who knows?


Amtrak paid the CSXT a tighty sum for signalling and siding extensions before they turned the first wheel towards Florida. Station rehalitation ??? BALONEY~ Amtrak sold the Mobile depot and surrouding grounds to a developer and then grabbed a bull horn and told everybody they had no facilities in Mobile (and other locations that really weren't waiting rooms), but didn't tell anyone about the sale. Katrina hit August 29th, 2005 and the CSXT had the RR up and running April 15th of 2006 (and there several bridges that needed heavy repairs.) Now that's over 5 years ago. The O/T and deadheads and free pax meals were a nightmare with 16-24, or more, hour delays coming off the UP and if you add that into the $407 dollar figure that is being thrown around today as a per pax loss on the Sunset you can see why Amtrak ain't racing to go east of NOL. If they cut their heads in and ran the good OTP of the CONO and swung it east it would alleviate the nightmares the UP created for years.They'll never make money based on pax loads in the past but at least they can provide the only thing they do~give the traveling public a means of transportation.This is such a dead cow that only the bones are left...


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## Gratt (Aug 12, 2011)

It doesn't matter now anyways a transcontinental train was too good to be true there is a reason they almost never did it in the old days. The CONO is an option, the only other way is to run a really long day train on that route. People will spend the night in NOLA and get on the train in the morning.

Either way the states are going to need to put up a few million dollars to fix those stations and I dont see that happening anytime soon.


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## had8ley (Aug 12, 2011)

Gratt said:


> It doesn't matter now anyways a transcontinental train was too good to be true there is a reason they almost never did it in the old days. The CONO is an option, the only other way is to run a really long day train on that route. People will spend the night in NOLA and get on the train in the morning.
> 
> Either way the states are going to need to put up a few million dollars to fix those stations and I dont see that happening anytime soon.


There is NOTHING wrong with the stations. Pensacola was a brand new facility and still stands as pretty as the day it was built. Gulfport and Biloxi are just waiting areas and served RR signal gangs; there never was an agent between NOL and Pensacola so I can't see how Amtrak has everyone biting into the "no station facilities" while they've dumped people in the rocks at Beaumont and had no excuses.This is in the process of being rectified.)Mobile "DID" have an agent until the land was sold and Amtrak pulled out the bull horn saying "WE ain't got no station." I've had better boloney sandwiches in my lifetime.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 12, 2011)

had8ley said:


> The O/T and deadheads and free pax meals were a nightmare with 16-24, or more, hour delays coming off the UP and if you add that into the $407 dollar figure that is being thrown around today as a per pax loss on the Sunset you can see why Amtrak ain't racing to go east of NOL. If they cut their heads in and ran the good OTP of the CONO and swung it east it would alleviate the nightmares the UP created for years.


The CONO solution sounds interesting to me. Too bad the American government is busy starving virtually every budget outside of defense and senior citizen services. On the flip side, I didn't see many intentional delays on the part of UP during my last trip out west on the SL. I did see lots of freights being passed though. I've also seen as many as four separate freights sitting for up to an hour each waiting for the eastbound SL to pass on its way to San Antonio while trainspotting in the area just east of Hondo. Those are eight well paid employees sitting and waiting for their authorization to move so Amtrak can pass. I'm not trying to say this is always in effect but it _does_ happen. On my last trip VIA's Canadian was doing a lot more waiting than one of Amtrak's most notoriously delayed routes.



had8ley said:


> I can't see how Amtrak has everyone biting into the "no station facilities" while they've dumped people in the rocks at Beaumont and had no excuses. This is in the process of being rectified.


Does anyone have an update on old Beaumont's brand new million dollar bus bench?


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 12, 2011)

All I can say on this is that no one knows what's going to happen to the route east of New Orleans except for president of Amtrak and apparently Congress. The way things are going we don't even know if the western LD trains are even going to survive any longer. Right now I'd work on improving the Sunset Limited. The SL losing $400+ per passenger is unacceptable and it shows that route has to go daily. The question everyone should be asking is when Amtrak is going to order more Superliners? The TE and SL becoming one is clearly not going to happen. We can guarantee Amtrak is not going to be able to come up with 3/4 of a million dollars and just hand it over to the Union Pacific, so ordering more equipment seems like the only other option the Sunset can go daily. Once the Sunset improves then I can see the possibility of it returning east of NOL and possibly Phoenix if Amtrak is lucky. That's my thoughts on all of this.


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## cpamtfan (Aug 12, 2011)

I went past the Gulfport stAtion last month. A train could stop there any day. Something needs to be done.


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## rrdude (Aug 12, 2011)

zepherdude said:


> rrdude
> 
> its not criminal
> 
> ...


Cause I was there, on the ground, n saw firsthand, what could be


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## TLC (Aug 12, 2011)

leemell said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.
> ...


Because thats what he does.


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## henryj (Aug 12, 2011)

This subject continues to come up on here. For starters one needs to read the Performance Improvement Plan published by Amtrak in 2010.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222

After you read it you will begin to realize that most of the improvements could be made to the existing train without daily service. There is plenty of equipment to do either as Amtrak has four sets dedicate to the route plus the through cars from the Eagle. This is because the train lays over in New Orleans for three days before returning westbound(Actually there are days when two sets of SSL equipment sit in New Orleans overnight). This is because the schedule is still running as if the train goes on the Florida which of course it does not. In addition Amtrak is unable to turn the train in one day in LA because the eastbound schedule leaves at 2:40PM rather that late a night as it used to before Katrina and the UP meltdown. So there is huge waste going on before we even start on the PIP.

From the PIP, the schedule changes which give better arrival and departure times in key markets, the layover improvements in San Antonio, better connected corridor services, On=board amenities improvements, etc, blah blah blah, could all be done to the existing train without daily service or having to pay UP 3/4 of a billion dollars. Service could also be restored to Florida. My understanding of the east end was that it generated a lot of traffic and actually returned more revenue per mile than the existing current route. There were a lot of people that elected to take the train to Orlando from the Texas and other Western markets. The UP and BNSF are generally running this train on time now and it has a better on time performance than any of the other western LD routes.

So in the end you have to wonder just what is the plan at Amtrak? Personally, I don't think they give a hoot about the western LD trains and particularly the Sunset. It's not going to make any money because none of the LD trains make any money. So that's not the problem. The problem is that Amtrak has just written off the LD market period and is just marking time until they can rid themselves of it. Their concentration now is corridor markets, and mostly state supported ones. And after next year Amtrak as we know it may be history anyway. These people obviously don't consider that their rail service is essential since the continually suspend service on a route for whatever reason and provide no alternate service. So they have bought into the arguments that the service isn't really needed. They only run these trains because that is the only way they can keep their jobs.


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## eagle628 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's really not a shame at all. The last thing Amtrak needs to do is sink more money into the Western long-distance sinkhole. It sucks for Florida (actually, not a whole lot, since thrice weekly service in the middle of the night doesn't do anybody much good at all), but there are a lot of other places where more people can be served better for the same amount of money. Given Amtrak's financial and political status, throwing money at expanding long-distance trains, at least for the time being, is tantamount to suicide. It just gives more ammunition to the people who say Amtrak is an outdated, irrelevent form of transport, and it deprives the areas where Amtrak could manage to be neither of those badly needed money.


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## DET63 (Aug 13, 2011)

> This "Thread" is like a dead hose, but still...


A dead _hose_ . . .

Interesting.


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## jis (Aug 13, 2011)

The following comes to mind


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## TWA904 (Aug 13, 2011)

It is my understanding that the SL could be restored to Orlando or Tampa with no additional

equipment. They only need to have crews trained.

Eagle628 said that since it SL was scheduled thru towns in ALA and Florida during the night it

did no good. Most of those towns have no other transportation options other than Amtrak and they did have good boardings.

Also, I believe based on what I've read about Amtrak, that one reason the LD trains are losing

so much money is because of the accounting methods. Charging expenses to the LD trains that

should be charged to the NEC is simply not right.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 13, 2011)

eagle628 said:


> It's really not a shame at all. The last thing Amtrak needs to do is sink more money into the Western long-distance sinkhole. It sucks for Florida (actually, not a whole lot, since thrice weekly service in the middle of the night doesn't do anybody much good at all), but there are a lot of other places where more people can be served better for the same amount of money. Given Amtrak's financial and political status, throwing money at expanding long-distance trains, at least for the time being, is tantamount to suicide. It just gives more ammunition to the people who say Amtrak is an outdated, irrelevent form of transport, and it deprives the areas where Amtrak could manage to be neither of those badly needed money.


We need to get much of the NEC service shifted to state 403B funding, so they fund their corridor service like the rest of the country has to. Then we'll see.


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## henryj (Aug 13, 2011)

TWA904 said:


> It is my understanding that the SL could be restored to Orlando or Tampa with no additional
> 
> equipment. They only need to have crews trained.


That is correct. Train #2 arrives on TuFrSu. Those same sets leave as #1 on FrMoWe. That means that on Tuesday and Sunday mights there are actually two sets of equipment sitting in New Orleans. This has been verified by Amtrak personnel in New Orleans. And this train looses something like $400 per passenger. I wonder why? The train sets are sitting there because the schedule is set up to continue on to Orlando, but of course they do not so they just sit in New Orleans as if they went on to Florida as do the crews which of course get paid anyway. And this has been the case ever since Katrina in 2005.............almost six years. Is Amtrak management stupid or do they just not give a hoot? Wonder why this train is always the first target of the cost cutters and budget crunchers? Down here we witness this stupid operation going on year after year with no change or resolution in site.


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## had8ley (Aug 13, 2011)

Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !


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## henryj (Aug 13, 2011)

had8ley said:


> Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !


I don't see any problem with overtime, deadheading, ADA or any other such problems. The trains run on time now and the route east of NOL is a separate division with separate crews, the CSX made the route available years ago and the stations are the same ones that were there in 2005. When the train ran on to Florida it laid over about three hours in NOL for servicing and restocking and new crews. It would actually be a more efficient operation and the equipment would be earning revenue rather than just sitting and the west end crews would be turned quicker and get back to LAX sooner. Amtrak decided to start the transcon service as a way to use the idle equipment that was sitting in NOL prior to 1993 and it worked well until the UP meltdown and subsequently Katrina.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 13, 2011)

Although it sounds good at first there is nothing terribly efficient about generating revenue that's insufficient to cover your costs. If the people who live along the Sunset Limited East want service restored they should work hard to get pro-rail politicians elected in the states that would be funding its return. Or just kiss it goodbye. All this crying about Amtrak's lack of interest in losing more money on a route that was notorious for it won't change anything.


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## TWA904 (Aug 13, 2011)

Why worry about subsidizing at a rate of $400 per passenger. The DOT is paying over $4,000

per passenger for Essential Air Service(EAS) at Ely, NV. Ely had 229 enplanements for the year

in 2010 and Great Lakes Airlines received over $1 mil in EAS payments. Alamagordo NM has a EAS rate of over $1000 per enplanement.


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## henryj (Aug 13, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Although it sounds good at first there is nothing terribly efficient about generating revenue that's insufficient to cover your costs. If the people who live along the Sunset Limited East want service restored they should work hard to get pro-rail politicians elected in the states that would be funding its return. Or just kiss it goodbye. All this crying about Amtrak's lack of interest in losing more money on a route that was notorious for it won't change anything.


The states and Amtrak paid a lot of money to get this route started so they probably don't feel it necessary to pay again just to restore what was already there. All Amtrak's LD trains lose lots of money so I don't see that as an issue. Personally, I am not crying about it. I just think Amtrak ignores the south and the southwest and gives us poor to non-existant service compared to other parts of the country. Particularly since Texas is the second largest state population wise and pays a bunch of taxes to the Feds. It all goes to support the NEC and the northeast. If you are so worried about Amtrak losing more money just privatize it and get ride of all the money losing routes. I like taking the train, but hey I can live without it. There is always Southwest Airlines and it makes money.


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## Amtrak George (Aug 13, 2011)

*RE: traffic levels on CSX etc.*: I know there is still a lot of freight traffic on the Flomaton to New Orleans segment (Flomaton is a junction east of Mobile) but what about the segment on the panhandle east of Flomaton? This may be a part of the problem, as I heard a while back that CSX was sending NOLA to Florida traffic around through Montgomery or some other way and bypassing the panhandle route. There has been talk of downgrading the Panhandle line. The portion thru Biloxi etc. is not in danger and is part of the Cincinnati to New Orleans main.

I would also think right now as Amtrak's very existence is again threatened by political upheaval, they can hardly afford resuming the route. I would love to see it happen (I want to travel to Florida by train) but it looks like unless funding gets approved it won't happen.

If restoration becomes possible, it should be a stand alone train, not part of a transcon. It could be an extension of the CONO. The problem with the City of New Orleans extension is unless you allow for several hours between a westbound train from Florida and the northbound City, you could really do havoc with the City's timekeeping. This would not be good.


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## had8ley (Aug 14, 2011)

henryj said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !
> ...


My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:


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## henryj (Aug 14, 2011)

had8ley said:


> My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:


Hadley aren't you talking about just any route Amtrak runs???????????? Aren't there risks with any operation? How about the big crash on the NEC at Gunpow in 1987? What I see here is the usual discrimination towards anything in Texas, the South or the Southwest from the eastern sohpisticates and know-it-alls. I agree with another writer on here that we should move 60 Mass Ave to maybe Kansas City or better yet Houston and let them put up with one train three times a week.

Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.


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## AlanB (Aug 14, 2011)

henryj said:


> Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was.


Henry, while I agree with you that it's a shame that little is being done in Texas where it could benefit so many more, the key or pivotal point in your statement is "states". Illinios had both a plan in place for improvements and it was willing to put up some of its own money for the improvements.

Texas had neither. 

So it got nothing.



henryj said:


> Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.


As for Ohio, I'm sorry but there was nothing prudent in Ohio's decision. It was purely political.


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## had8ley (Aug 14, 2011)

henryj said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:
> ...


No, not really...I was asked to hire out and bid on a one man extra board in Pensacola that was established to cover Pensacola to Jax and NOL. One of the three people in the cab was the guy who took the job and was breaking in(even though I love the beach I stayed put in NOL). The suits have no idea of the operational difficulties that are confronted by crews on each and every trip. We had a lady GM in NOL for five years. Gunn was prez and he told her to ride the Crescent to Washington. She got a transfer in D.C. but on the way back she commented as the train rolled across Lake Pontchatrain, "If I had known the sunset was this beautiful on this train I would have ridden a long time ago." How many suits do you think even care ??? Better yet put their desks inside the Houston station or on the rocks in Beaumont :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 14, 2011)

Maybe business would pick up @ the J&J Tavern Jay! These guys drink expensive stuff, so we could increase our profits! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## leemell (Aug 14, 2011)

DET63 said:


> > This "Thread" is like a dead hose, but still...
> 
> 
> A dead _hose_ . . .
> ...


I'll bet it is better than a live _hose._


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## had8ley (Aug 14, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Maybe business would pick up @ the J&J Tavern Jay! These guys drink expensive stuff, so we could increase our profits! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Then maybe we could open our own RR...at least there would some transparency BEFORE 5 o'clock... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## eagle628 (Aug 14, 2011)

henryj said:


> Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.



So you mean that we should suddenly redirect money from the Lincoln service or the Wolverine track upgrades on the grounds that they serve economically depressed blue-collar regions and send it to Texas, never mind the fact that Illinois and Michigan both have a) expanding ridership, b) state governments supportive of rail transport and c) specific and reasonable plans to improve and expand service and Texas has none of those, with the possible exception of number one?


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## colobok (Aug 14, 2011)

I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.

If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.

Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?


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## henryj (Aug 14, 2011)

eagle628 said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.
> ...



Sounds ok to me.


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 14, 2011)

colobok said:


> I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.
> 
> If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.
> 
> Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?


Pensacola wouldn't be an ideal station to service the train for the next day. I don't know about Jacksonville though that could work or Orlando.


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## George Harris (Aug 14, 2011)

colobok said:


> I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.
> 
> If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.
> 
> Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?


Much as I would like to see a resurrection of the old "Florida Fast Three" that is the City of Miami, South Wind, and Dixie Flagler wiwth their 24 hour schedule between Chicago and Jacksonville, it simply is not going to happen. Why? The City of Miami route is no longer even there in several segments, and the other two routes would require megamillions to manage the same schedules they ran in 1955. I mention this because ALL other midwest to Florida routes are slower.

If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville. And, New Orleans to Jacksonville by rail is probably at least 4 hours slower than a relaxed driving time.


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## colobok (Aug 15, 2011)

George Harris said:


> If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville.


So what is the problem? They could run it tri-weekly if they don't have enough equipment.



George Harris said:


> And, New Orleans to Jacksonville by rail is probably at least 4 hours slower than a relaxed driving time.


"relaxed" driving time??? about 9 hours or so? Can you drive that distance without breaks???

I would definetely prefer to sleep 13 hours in a sleeping car rather than spending the whole day for driving on highway.


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## henryj (Aug 15, 2011)

colobok said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville.
> ...



The train has always taken around 17 hours to go from New Orleans to Jacksonville. The rail route is not direct and makes a big hook around Mobile. Driving time is around 8 hours via I10. The problem today is that Jacksonville isn't the destination of choice, Orlando is. Driving time NOL to Orlando is around 10 hours because you can take the cutoff. Rail still has to go through Jacksonville which adds three more hours to the trip or 20 hours NOL to Orlando. I have driven from Houston, Tx to Orlando in one day or about 14 hours. That is with stops for food and fuel. It's not that hard as it's interestate highway all the way and you by pass NOL on I12. You can fly Southwest in a couple of hours.

Having said that, the Sunset east was still a well patronized train until the UP meltdown. People taking the train from points west of NOL didn't worry much about the time. NOL on the other hand has really ceased to be the hub it once was due to the declining population there and it's vulnerability to hurricanes. Baton Rouge is growing while New Orleans is shrinking which brings up another point.

Demographics in this country are changing drastically from the classic passenger train era. However, Amtrak seems to be stuck in the 1950's as are a lot of rail fans. A lot of the former important rail hubs are now just declining backwaters. Hubs have moved to where the action is and where the airlines took them and where the people are moving too. Florida is a good example. Where Jacksonville was a major hub for rail, now Orlando is the destination of choice receiving something like 50 million visitors a year. Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 15, 2011)

Random question what was the UP meltdown?


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## jis (Aug 15, 2011)

henryj said:


> Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.


Actually you have a problem there only if anyone is talking about reducing service to Orlando, which of course no one is. A significant proportion of people that go to Orlando do so from far away places on big silver birds. What Florida lacks is service for local people to make local trips, and that is where a better Orlando Miami Corridor and the FEC plays a part. It is a completely different demographic that it would serve than people trying to get to Orlando from Texas. They should rightfully fly or drive as you have pointed out. That is why it stands to reason that the State make a significant contribution to the FEC proposal, and there appears to be some political will to do so.

Orlando is important but in the broader scheme of thing in Florida, Orlando ain't the equivalent of New York in the Northeast.


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## had8ley (Aug 15, 2011)

jis said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.
> ...


Jis...if you take the population of New York and divide it by the number of visitors per year and then take Orlando's population and divide it by those coming to see the Mouse, Space Center,and all the other theme parks, I think you'll be skunked. The NEC is not the only piece of RR Amtrak operates !!!


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## henryj (Aug 15, 2011)

SunsetLimited01 said:


> Random question what was the UP meltdown?


It was the rail gridlock that resulted from the 1996 merger of the UP and the SP. Here is a quote: For thousands of U.S. companies that ship by rail, the transportation meltdown caused by the 1996 merger of Union Pacific (UP) and Southern Pacific (SP) railroads is all too fresh. Shipments that were supposed to take five days to reach their destinations often took as many as 30 -- if they didn't get lost altogether. Overburdened computer systems lost track of freight cars. Bottlenecks arose throughout the West -- particularly in Houston, where freight snarls lasted for a year and a half.

The bottlenecks resulted in the Sunset Limited running hours late every day. Sometimes not reaching it's destination before it was to turn and head back. I rode this train sometime during this period and it was a rail fans dream. Trains on every siding. Coming across Arizona and New Mexico we would take siding behind a freight and another freight would then pull in behind us. Then five or six westbounds would fly past. Finally we would pull out behind the freight in front of us and trundle down the line at 30-40mph until they found a siding to put that freight into. Then we would take off like a scalded dog for 20 or 30 miles and repeat the whole thing again. After El Paso the train pretty much ran normal, but by then we were over 6 hours late....which it turns out was a good day by comparison. At that time the train was due into New Orleans around 8:30pm with a two hour layover before continuing on to Florida but would often arrive at 2 and 3 in the morning and would hit Orlando the next morning something like 9 or 10 hours late. Amtrak finally just asked the UP to give it a schedule they could keep resulting in the schedule you see now as they have never changed it back to what it was. The UP however could not keep that schedule either. It was a disaster for Amtrak and a real black eye for the UP. Nowdays the Sunset has one of the best on time records.

Before the merger the SP ran rock trains to houston for highway and other construction projects. They ran on a regular schedule. After the merger I heard one manager talking about sending out scouts to try and find where his rock train was on the system as the UP couldn't tell him anything and it had not shown up for days. Just an example of the chaos that resulted from the merger.


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## had8ley (Aug 15, 2011)

The UP rented 200 and 300 series engines from Amtrak trying to break up the log jam. The UP promised to only use them in high speed inter-modal service. We showed up for work one day and the night local had stolen our engines because his ran out of fuel. So...the dispatcher told the next southbound train to set out his two rear units. We switched with a 200 and a 300 for almost three months and went down an old sugar cane branch three times a week at 5 mph. So much for promises. The A/C was great as the MOP nor UP didn't believe in A/C in GP 38's.


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 15, 2011)

henryj said:


> SunsetLimited01 said:
> 
> 
> > Random question what was the UP meltdown?
> ...


So that's what happened. And the UP wasn't able to keep the schedule Amtrak requested? Wow that's some serious stuff. That is probably why one time in Orlando I saw the Sunset Limited was to arrive at 12:15 AM, fifteen minutes past midnight.


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## AlanB (Aug 15, 2011)

SunsetLimited01 said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > SunsetLimited01 said:
> ...


In 2001 IIRC, Amtrak added 10 and 1/2 hours of padding to the Sunset, 8 on the UP side the rest on the CSX side. Despite 8 extra hours to get that train over the road, the Sunset was still sometimes showing up 2 days late into LA or New Orleans. 

That gives you an idea of just how bad things were. And mind you it wasn't just UP putting down Amtrak, as noted in the earlier post, they were delivering freight days late. In fact they took a hotshot contract with UPS where they guaranteed shipments from the west coast to the east coast. They ran the service for maybe a week and quickly realized that they couldn't do it. For several months they paid UPS to just fly the packages instead of putting them on the rails, until they could get out of the contract.

Things are pretty bad when you start paying the company that hired you to move packages to instead fly the packages rather than giving them to you.


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## the_traveler (Aug 15, 2011)

That's why going westbound from Florida to LAX, the SL once arrived LAX something like *36 HOURS* late! (Over 1 1/2 *DAYS* late!)






That's also the reason so much padding was added to the SL schedule. At one time, it departed LAX at 10:30 PM - allowing for a connection from the CS southbound. Now with the padding added, it departs LAX at 2:3- PM. Thus there is no way to connect from the CS unless you stay overnight on LA.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 15, 2011)

From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.


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## had8ley (Aug 15, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.


Correctumundo....but the SP was flat broke and the UP saw a golden opportunity to snake their way in!


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## AlanB (Aug 15, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.


In hindsight many, many people were definately questioning that approval.

Mind you NS had similar problems after the partial obsorbtion of Conrail. It wasn't quite as bad as UP, but it wasn't pretty either.


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## jis (Aug 15, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.
> ...


At that point in time, after the proposed SP SantaFe merger had already fallen apart, the only other choice would have been partial shutdown and piecemeal divestment of SP, and the net net of that would not have been any prettier than what happened with UP merger as far as the Sunset was concerned IMHO. Sp was in truly dire straits at that time.

Of course the whole mega-railroad trend is possibly questionable as a concept from a pure competitiveness angle. There are talks off and on about the next round possibly involving a UP - CSX merger and a BNSF - NS merger. The airline industry is also trending in the same direction. After United+Continental, there is speculation about AA+who? Perhaps USAirways who was left standing at the alter by United when it eloped with Continental? Perhaps B6?


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 15, 2011)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


UP and CSX merging? If that happens anytime soon the middle of Florida can expect even longer freights on top of what they are dealing with now and what they will be dealing with when SunRail opens.


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## AlanB (Aug 15, 2011)

SunsetLimited01 said:


> UP and CSX merging? If that happens anytime soon the middle of Florida can expect even longer freights on top of what they are dealing with now and what they will be dealing with when SunRail opens.


Not that SunRail will really care, since they own the tracks now and they get to tell CSX when it can run.


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## SunsetLimited01 (Aug 15, 2011)

AlanB said:


> SunsetLimited01 said:
> 
> 
> > UP and CSX merging? If that happens anytime soon the middle of Florida can expect even longer freights on top of what they are dealing with now and what they will be dealing with when SunRail opens.
> ...


Not talking about the A-line the S-line. They were discussing this issue about an increase in freight trains on the news not to long ago.


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## colobok (Aug 15, 2011)

henryj said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


This logic can apply to any other route. For example, Denver to SanFrancisco is 19.5 hrs by car. So why to take 33 hrs train? And also you can fly this distance in couple of hours. So what? Let's cancel Zephyr now?

People take trains not because they are fast, but because they provide comfort. As I said it's better to spend a night in the sleeping car rather than to spend a day driving on a highway.

And not everybody needs to ride the whole section between New Orleans and Orlando. For example, a lot of people from Midwest would take train to Pensacola should CONO be extended east of NOL.

And also - what is the point in these arguments if LD trains are sold out anyway? Look at the Sunset West - it's usually sold out several days before departure.

Just run Sunset East and let people to vote by their money!


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## jis (Aug 16, 2011)

colobok said:


> This logic can apply to any other route. For example, Denver to SanFrancisco is 19.5 hrs by car. So why to take 33 hrs train? And also you can fly this distance in couple of hours. So what? Let's cancel Zephyr now?


Actually, AFAIR the Zephyr goes through some spectacular scenery. I am not sure that the NOL - JAX route comes anywhere close. Hence given a choice between canceling the Zephyr or canceling the NOL - JAX service one would probably cancel the latter. Of course ideally it would be nice if both could be run.

I also agree with an earlier post that JAX is hardly a suitable origin/destination for any train. If the train is run at all it should be to Orlando, and even if it totally misses JAX and somehow manages to go down through Ocala to Orlando, that might even work better.


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## colobok (Aug 16, 2011)

jis said:


> Actually, AFAIR the Zephyr goes through some spectacular scenery. I am not sure that the NOL - JAX route comes anywhere close. Hence given a choice between canceling the Zephyr or canceling the NOL - JAX service one would probably cancel the latter. Of course ideally it would be nice if both could be run.


You are right. But Amtrak is not a tourist train company, it's a transportation company, so this argument should not matter.

And there are many other routes that are not scenic, but they take much longer by train than by car.

This should not matter at all. The only factor that should be considered is the load of the train.

Sunset West is constantly sold out and Sunset East had better load before it was cancelled than Sunset West,

so restore Sunset East (or extend CONO) and it will be sold out too!


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 16, 2011)

colobok said:


> You are right. But Amtrak is not a tourist train company, it's a transportation company, so this argument should not matter.


Amtrak's LD network doesn't really cater to tourists but it also doesn't really cater to business travel either. For me I can only use Amtrak for tourist related trips as the timing, frequency, and reliability would be hard to explain to my employer. It would appear that Amtrak sees itself as an East Coast, Midwest, and West Coast corridor service that just happens to have government mandated obligations to connect all these markets to each other. If given free reign I would imagine Amtrak would cut large portions of their LD network and redirect those funds and resources toward corridor use. That's not to say there would be no more LD routes at all, but I could see them being chopped in half or even down to a third of what they are today.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2011)

I agree. If we want the LD system to thrive we must get the Congress to articulate a clear policy regarding them and stand behind that with adequate funding. Otherwise the days of LD service as we know it today are numbered, and with that the days of Amtrak as an unified system. The heavily used Corridors will somehow continue to have heavy service Amtrak or not, but there will unlikely be a consistent LD network without something like Amtrak.

Even in the British privatization "Cross-Country" was hived off as a separate TOC from all others which were specific Corridor or Region/Sub-Region oriented TOCs. Ironically in France and also in Japan, their "LD" network essentially amounts to their HSR corridors, with everything else having faded away. In France, in addition they have what is essentially highly subsidized Regional operations which are subsidized by the Departments that they run in. I have no idea what the financial setup is for the Japanese passenger service that runs in the sticks, like the services on Shikoku and Hokkaido.

In this context, Sunset East is but a precursor to the issue that will come up over and over again, absent a consistent policy regarding LD service. Basically anything that was not in the original network and is performing poorly will be at risk, and of course stuff that was in the original network and are gone are not about to come back either. Sorry to be a downer, but that is the political and financial reality that we are faced with, until someone figures out how to get LD trains to cover their full cost of operation from evey possible angle.


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## trainviews (Aug 16, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> colobok said:
> 
> 
> > You are right. But Amtrak is not a tourist train company, it's a transportation company, so this argument should not matter.
> ...


Actually putting the available means into building up corridor services is much the sensible thing to do, but that is a political decision and not up to Amtrak (and nor should it be). Keeping up the LDs would be nice, but it is icing on the cake.

The job of the federal government should be to provide transportation and connecitivity, preferably with alternatives and in as environmentally friendly way as possible.

Now going on vacation, visiting granny or some other non-business purpose is a transportation need too, (even if providing scenic routes isn't), but whatever the reason, the travel needs best solved by trains are in high volume corridors (the NEC, California, Hiawatha) or in medium volume corridors with little competition/transportation alternatives (the Virginia services, several of the midwest routes). For very long distances or low volume corridors planes and cars respectively are more feasible. The society simply gain less by putting its' subsidy money here.

Sadly the american rail debate has gotten into a total dismantle/preserve deadlock. Actually the Obama administration took some sensible initiatives with the high speed and stimulus grants to expand train service in the right places in states that were ready for it and had done their homework, but then left all operating subsidy up to the states, diminishing the incentives even tough it has a good overall benefit to society. And now the federal money for infrastructure upgrades seems to be getting lost in the total Amtrak-rage of the teahadists not able or willing to see any differences between a train and a train...

And Henryj: Whining about the NEC getting everything is somewhat tiresome and not really fair. The NEC is paying for itself operationwise, even with some surplus for investing in new equipment. As for upgrading the infrastructure, the states are actually chipping in together with the feds(excluding the stimulus money, and that was a one off). The same goes for the Midwest, and putting money into upgrading routes that are already well patronized and with a decent operating economy is plain sound. Texas had the same opportunity and several corridors are among the most feasible in the country, but it did not have its' act together, and had to settle for peanuts to make the studies and plans to apply if and when congress gets a railfriendly majority again. But it requires electing politicians with that kind of vision, locally and nationally. It is not in the hands of Amtrak.


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## George Harris (Aug 16, 2011)

trainviews said:


> And Henryj: Whining about the NEC getting everything is somewhat tiresome and not really fair. The NEC is paying for itself operationwise, even with some surplus for investing in new equipment.


It has been said by others and I suspect that it is really true: With any honest accounting system the northeast corridor would be found to be a sinkhole for money. With its complexity and the investment and operating expense to try to squeese as mucch speed as possible out of a 19th century alignmetn that the Pennsylvania Railroad considered to be at best an 80 mph railroad, it is probably one of the most expensive pieces of railroad to operate on a per passenger mile basis in this country. Given that it is a virtual necessity for transportation fluidity in that part of the country, I am not suggesting that it be dismantled, simply that the costs be honestly stated, and there be contributions from the various govenments in the area proportionate to the benefit. I am absolutely in agreement with the politicians from the more rural states when they say, if you expect us to contribute to your rail operation, there had better be a proportional contribuion to rail service in our areas.


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## henryj (Aug 16, 2011)

George Harris said:


> trainviews said:
> 
> 
> > And Henryj: Whining about the NEC getting everything is somewhat tiresome and not really fair. The NEC is paying for itself operationwise, even with some surplus for investing in new equipment.
> ...


Thanks George for that insite. As anyone knows that has followed this over the years, some 100's of billions of public funds have been dumped on the NEC to make it work. Just the initial track upgrades years ago was in the 10's of billions. I forget how much extending the electrification all the way to Boston costs or the Acela train sets, but it was a bunch. There is no way operating revenues come even close to even paying for the maintenance or depreciation on this stuff much less the construction. Basically, the rest of the country has subsidized the NEC for decades. All the improvements spent on Amtrak related projects across the entire nation do not equal what has been spent on the NEC. And of coure(whine whine whine) down here in texas we get next to nothing back.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 16, 2011)

George Harris said:


> I am absolutely in agreement with the politicians from the more rural states when they say, if you expect us to contribute to your rail operation, there had better be a proportional contribution to rail service in our areas.


Thanks to the structure of the senate rural states have long been gifted with a legislative _advantage_ over far more populous states. This artificial benefit continues to increase in importance as our country becomes more and more urbanized. If the rural states really want a more even-handed representation at the federal level I say we give it to them. Then they can watch their priorities vanish as the majority pushes them onto the sidelines. Either that or they can stop crying foul over a system that overtly favors their minority status.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 16, 2011)

Fairness is very much in the eye of the beholder. According to this chart, the states the NEC goes through rank 33, 40, 42, 44, 48, and 50 in federal spending per dollar of federal taxes. That would, I imagine, include Amtrak spending on the NEC. All of them rank below Texas (35) except for little Rhode Island (33). For that matter, Michigan and Illinois, the two midwestern states that are getting high-speed rail funding, rank at 37 and 45, also both below Texas.

The states in the eastern extension of the Sunset Limited mostly get lots of federal funding even without Amtrak. They rank 2, 4, 7, and 34 (Florida).

So perhaps the northeastern states and some midwestern states do get more Amtrak funding, but that doesn't make up for the massive wealth transfer in other federal spending.

Who is really getting it in the neck from Amtrak? My state. Minnesota ranks 46 in federal spending ($0.72 for every dollar in federal taxes) and we only have two horribly late trains a day.

EDIT: Okay, Nevada has it even worse at #48.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2011)

henryj said:


> Basically, the rest of the country has subsidized the NEC for decades. All the improvements spent on Amtrak related projects across the entire nation do not equal what has been spent on the NEC. And of coure(whine whine whine) down here in texas we get next to nothing back.


A very odd definition of "subsidized" considering who the net donor states are for feddybucks. But I guess everyone can get there kicks whichever way works for them


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## henryj (Aug 16, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> Fairness is very much in the eye of the beholder. According to this chart, the states the NEC goes through rank 33, 40, 42, 44, 48, and 50 in federal spending per dollar of federal taxes. That would, I imagine, include Amtrak spending on the NEC. All of them rank below Texas (35) except for little Rhode Island (33). For that matter, Michigan and Illinois, the two midwestern states that are getting high-speed rail funding, rank at 37 and 45, also both below Texas.
> 
> The states in the eastern extension of the Sunset Limited mostly get lots of federal funding even without Amtrak. They rank 2, 4, 7, and 34 (Florida).
> 
> ...



Yep you are getting screwed just like the rest of us. I posted on here before, the Chicago to twin cities route boasted multiple trains on multiple routes and many wrote speed records for years. Now basically nothing, just an always late EB.

The debate on here I assumed was about passenger rail, not what each state gets back in Federal dollars for other stuff. Argue all you want, but there is no doubt that a vast section of the country is being overlooked by Amtrak while vast sums are being spent on the NEC. Here in Texas we have the wandering Eagle that can't get into stations like San Antonio for want of a simple cross over or switch. This goes on all over the country while the NEC gets gold plated. What is going to happen like it or not is Amtrak is just going to be out politicized by the have not states. They have truncated their system and cut back everywhere else and the states are going to rebel. If it happens, it won't be pretty.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2011)

henryj said:


> The debate on here I assumed was about passenger rail, not what each state gets back in Federal dollars for other stuff. Argue all you want, but there is no doubt that a vast section of the country is being overlooked by Amtrak while vast sums are being spent on the NEC. Here in Texas we have the wandering Eagle that can't get into stations like San Antonio for want of a simple cross over or switch. This goes on all over the country while the NEC gets gold plated. What is going to happen like it or not is Amtrak is just going to be out politicized by the have not states. They have truncated their system and cut back everywhere else and the states are going to rebel. If it happens, it won't be pretty.


I agree with you. It is quite possible that this could happen and the results will be way uglier in the states that have a few LD trains than those which have frequent corridor service (or even a single LD train) on which the economic well being of the area depends. Many more of the states that have a few LD trains will cease to have any, and the corridors will continue to have service albeit may not be as fast as before. A vast section of the country is being overlooked partly because there is little political support in those parts anyway. Parts where there is political support gets trains either via Amtrak or via local agencies.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 16, 2011)

henryj said:


> The debate on here I assumed was about passenger rail, not what each state gets back in Federal dollars for other stuff.


I'd think that it's misleading to look at federal subsidies program by program. If the NEC has been subsidized by the rest of the nation, as you claim, does it not bear noting that the Interstate System and other transportation programs have been subsidized by the heavily populated northeastern states? It's sort of like listening to my wheat-farming cousins complain about welfare, ignoring the hundreds of thousands of dollars their outfit has received in various subsidies. Mote and beam, anyone?


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## henryj (Aug 16, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > The debate on here I assumed was about passenger rail, not what each state gets back in Federal dollars for other stuff.
> ...


Speaking of interestate highways, that is my idea for financing Amtrak. Passenger rail should be treated as an interestate highway with the Fed supplying 80-90% and the states paying the rest. Amtrak picks the routes and runs the trains or for intrastate the states can run them. Funding is from a fuel tax or a national sales tax.


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## VentureForth (Aug 17, 2011)

No matter how it's done, there needs to be a Southern connection to the West from Florida & Georgia. It's silly having to go through DC to get to Houston and Chicago to get to Dallas.


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## cirdan (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> The debate on here I assumed was about passenger rail, not what each state gets back in Federal dollars for other stuff. Argue all you want, but there is no doubt that a vast section of the country is being overlooked by Amtrak while vast sums are being spent on the NEC. Here in Texas we have the wandering Eagle that can't get into stations like San Antonio for want of a simple cross over or switch. This goes on all over the country while the NEC gets gold plated. What is going to happen like it or not is Amtrak is just going to be out politicized by the have not states. They have truncated their system and cut back everywhere else and the states are going to rebel. If it happens, it won't be pretty.


But doesn't that also have to do with how succesful such states are at campaigning for money, or to put it bluntly, holding out the begging bowl?

In places like Texas, I guess if you asked people what the 10 or even 20 most important issues were that they felt the state ought to be acting on, then Amtrak probably wouldn't be on that list. It's not a topic people mention during elections and its not a topic people write to their governor about so it's not something that gets acted on.

If the Texas Eagle can't run, maybe a couple of dozen people are inconvenienced. It's not a big deal. If the NEC stops working, thousands of people can't get to work on time and there are massive business repurcussions. That's why that corridor simply must work.

This can only change if more people start demanding more rail in their states.


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## cirdan (Aug 17, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> No matter how it's done, there needs to be a Southern connection to the West from Florida & Georgia. It's silly having to go through DC to get to Houston and Chicago to get to Dallas.


If you look at the Amtrak system map there are lost of other important gaps as well. For example Florida to Chicago or maybe even Kansas City to Houston. I don't see NOL - Florida as being more important than either of those.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2011)

I would have to agree with Cirdan on this. Very few people in Texas are asking for more intercity passenger rail. Thus, we don't get more rail. Texans _do_ keep asking for more highways and freeways and lanes and lo and behold they are everywhere. Seems pretty simple to me. But maybe that's not as fun as playing the victim card and blaming a handful of liberal states for being unfair to tiny little Texas.


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> I would have to agree with Cirdan on this. Very few people in Texas are asking for more intercity passenger rail. Thus, we don't get more rail. Texans _do_ keep asking for more highways and freeways and lanes and lo and behold they are everywhere. Seems pretty simple to me. But maybe that's not as fun as playing the victim card and blaming a handful of liberal states for being unfair to tiny little Texas.


It's a matter of which comes first, the trains or the demand for trains. Here in Texas we have been without any substantive passenger rail service so long that most people don't even know what it is or that it still exists. When the interstate highways were built, there was no demand from the states for it, it was Eisenhower's idea that he brought back from seeing the German Autobahn. The Federal Government passed the legislation and the system was built. This idea that most short haul trains should be state supported is a boondoggle. The NEC for instance will never be given to the states. They would squable and argue over it until it just fell apart. If you are ever going to have a national system then it has to be centrally controlled and financed just like airlways, highways and waterways. Once this is clear the freight railroads will cooperate because it will be to their benefit. Putting Amtrak under the DOT and running and funding it like the interstate highways would be one way to do this.


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> But maybe that's not as fun as playing the victim card and blaming a handful of liberal states for being unfair to tiny little Texas.


It's always easier to blame the "others".



henryj said:


> It's a matter of which comes first, the trains or the demand for trains.


There's more to it than just riding trains. Try electing some pro-rail politicians and see what happens. As was mentioned upthread, you'll have a DoT that makes plans for rail projects and state money becomes available for those projects. Then you can talk about getting your slice of pie from my tax dollars.


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## JoanieBlon (Aug 17, 2011)

Speaking of the Sunset Limited ~ my husband and I are riding it from New Orleans to Los Angeles leaving this coming Monday. It's part of his HAPPY 60th BIRTHDAY trip.... 

Is there anything along the route from New Orleans to Los Angeles of interest or that's noteworthy? ^_^ Other than watching the desert scenery, which we both really enjoy! :blush:


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2011)

As you already seem aware it's mostly just a bunch of desert and a bit of swamp land but you do have several neat old stations (El Paso, Tuscon, & LA come to mind) along with the "Pecos High Bridge" West of Del Rio that Amtrak SL staff seem oddly proud of. You won't have much time in San Antonio from that direction IIRC, but you can still get out and have a look at the exterior of Sunset Station or run over to see the exterior of the Alamo.


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

JoanieBlon said:


> Speaking of the Sunset Limited ~ my husband and I are riding it from New Orleans to Los Angeles leaving this coming Monday. It's part of his HAPPY 60th BIRTHDAY trip....
> 
> Is there anything along the route from New Orleans to Los Angeles of interest or that's noteworthy? ^_^ Other than watching the desert scenery, which we both really enjoy! :blush:


Well there is no desert in Louisiana and east texas. I would not recommend getting off in San Antonio because the train arrives between 2 & 3 AM and leaves at 5:40am. It's actually a good time to get some good sleep as the train is not moving for almost three hours. But west of San Antonio it will be just burned up because of the drought. Watch for the Pecos high bridge and then Alpine is a nice stop if only a brief one and you cross Piasano pass right after. El Paso is a long stop and you can visit the restored depot there. Tucson is also a long stop, but it's late in the evening. When I rode it there was plenty of partying going on across from the depot. But as the conductor reminded everyone, if you go into the bar to have a drink, just remember, the next train isn't for two more days. It's raining out in the desert so it might be really nice coming into El Paso and west of there. Watch to see if the train stops in Deming, Lordsburg or Benson. They are flag stops so it doesn't always stop. We stopped in Lordsburg and literally let people off in the middle of a street crossing. Benson does have a station, it looks like a bus shelter. Dropping down into Benson westbound you can get some spectacular sunsets. And this time of year with the 'monsoons' active you should see some great skys and lightning displays. Enjoy your trip. The Sunset Limited is a very friendly train with a good staff.


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Try electing some pro-rail politicians and see what happens.


As I believe I have made clear on here, I don't vote for Communists, socialists or DEMOCRATS. I believe in putting my state and my country before trains. If that is somehow bad for Amtrak then so be it.


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## JoanieBlon (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> JoanieBlon said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of the Sunset Limited ~ my husband and I are riding it from New Orleans to Los Angeles leaving this coming Monday. It's part of his HAPPY 60th BIRTHDAY trip....
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions... :hi: We visit Louisiana frequently and drive between New Orleans and Eunice, so we're really familiar with that neck of the woods. We also driven the entire I-10 route from Los Angeles to Florida, but I'm uncertain if the train always parallels the Interstate. As I said ~ we LIKE the desert vistas. Living in Florida, we enjoy seeing the mountains off in the distance.  Florida is flat as a pancake and sort of on the boring side for traveling through... hboy:


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Try electing some pro-rail politicians and see what happens.
> ...



Seeing as I've never seen 2 out of the 3 ever run for office, that's not too hard. If that's how you feel, then quit whining when the politicians that you elect don't give you what you want.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2011)

You could say the Sunset Limited follows I-10 in a very general sense but also deviates enough to provide an alternative view. For instance, West of San Antonio it's basically following Highway 90 which is a more interesting and entertaining route than I-10 IMO. It's also a lot slower than the I-10 route but that's where the tracks are so that's where Amtrak goes.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> As I believe I have made clear on here, I don't vote for Communists, socialists or DEMOCRATS. I believe in putting my state and my country before trains. If that is somehow bad for Amtrak then so be it.


So then stop boring us with your tiresome whine about how you are not getting your choo-choo train.


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## George Harris (Aug 17, 2011)

As to the other many gaps in the system: There is alot to be done in the way of adding trains that could improve connectivity.

One that comes to mind is a restoration of the concept of the Twin Star Rocket with connections to/from teh Southwest Chief at Kansas City. Run Minneapolis-St. Paul - Des Moines - Kansas City - Dallas/Ft. Worth, split into San Antonio and Houston sections.

Another is Ft. Worth - Shreveport - Baton Rouge - New Orleans. Remember the proposed Meridian - Ft. Worth connection to the Crescent that never happened? Think of a through New York to Ft. Worth on this route with two nights giving an early morning arrival in Dallas. Could throw in a Houston connection out of Shreveport, as well.

How about making the City of New Orleans connection to Florida out of Memphis? Memphis - Birmingham - Montgomery then on the Floridian route to Jacksonville. This should give a connection to the Crescent at Birmingham to get you to Atlanta if done right. Maybe have an Omaha - Kansas City - Memphis train that should get you connected to the Southwest Chief at KC, and to the CNO for New Orleans at Memphis as well.

The thing you are achieving with all of these is additional connectivity. There are many more. I have not even tried to list all the things that should be done north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi. There are many possibilities there.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2011)

Good stuff George! Are you available when Joe Boardman gets run out of WAS??? We need some LD thinkers/planners in the Executive Suite @ 60 Mass instead of the NEC First Crowd!!!


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

jis said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > As I believe I have made clear on here, I don't vote for Communists, socialists or DEMOCRATS. I believe in putting my state and my country before trains. If that is somehow bad for Amtrak then so be it.
> ...


I am so sorry that you are bored. But I have just as much right to post on here as you and Ryan do. So I guess you will have to live with it.


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

George Harris said:


> As to the other many gaps in the system: There is alot to be done in the way of adding trains that could improve connectivity.
> 
> One that comes to mind is a restoration of the concept of the Twin Star Rocket with connections to/from teh Southwest Chief at Kansas City. Run Minneapolis-St. Paul - Des Moines - Kansas City - Dallas/Ft. Worth, split into San Antonio and Houston sections.
> 
> ...


George, those are some interesting combinations. Some I have not even thought of. The one I miss the most is the Texas to Colorado connection as in the old Texas Zephyr and the former City of Portland connection via Denver. I like the idea of a CONO connection to Florida from Memphis. I wonder what the timing would be on this route. I still think however a Chicago to Florida connection should go through Atlanta.


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


Sure, you've got the right to do a lot of things. That doesn't make them worthwhile or desirable.

If you want to continue to complain, but refuse do actually to do anything about it to make the situation, that's fine. I guess you'll just have to live with being called on it every time you do.



henryj said:


> I still think however a Chicago to Florida connection should go through Atlanta.


Are you willing to pay the hundreds of millions in taxes to make that happen?


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

George Harris said:


> As to the other many gaps in the system: There is alot to be done in the way of adding trains that could improve connectivity.
> 
> How about making the City of New Orleans connection to Florida out of Memphis? Memphis - Birmingham - Montgomery then on the Floridian route to Jacksonville. This should give a connection to the Crescent at Birmingham to get you to Atlanta if done right. Maybe have an Omaha - Kansas City - Memphis train that should get you connected to the Southwest Chief at KC, and to the CNO for New Orleans at Memphis as well.


LOL George, I did some quick research on this one and it is recreating the Frisco's KC-Florida special, which did go through Atlanta. It left Memphis at 10:25am, Birmingham at 4:25pm and Atlanta at 10:25pm. Arriving at Jacksonville at 7:30am. West/north bound it left Jacksonville at 9:20pm, Atlanta at 7:30am, Birmingham at 12:05pm and arrived in Memphis at 6:45pm. It's a perfect fit with the CONO's current schedule and connects with the existing Florida trains. You would probably have to run it down to Orlando(three more hours only) and turn it there since Amtrak is so much against doing switching on it's Florida trains. We need you to head up the LD division at Amtrak.


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## henryj (Aug 17, 2011)

Ryan said:


> That doesn't make them worthwhile or desirable.
> 
> Are you willing to pay the hundreds of millions in taxes to make that happen?



Well Ryan, what makes you think your ideas are so worthwhile or desirable? And your second sentence is just nonsense of course as are most of your posts. I would rather pay "hundreds of millions in taxes" for that in place of the NEC which is a bottomless money pit and does nothing for me or the rest of the country.


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> Well Ryan, what makes you think your ideas are so worthwhile or desirable?


The fact that they're grounded in reality? The fact that they don't consist of complaining about the politicians that I voted for doing what they said they were going to do? The fact that rather than just bemoan the problems, I look for solutions (that are actually realistic)?


> And your second sentence is just nonsense of course as are most of your posts. I would rather pay "hundreds of millions in taxes" for that in place of the NEC which is a bottomless money pit and does nothing for me or the rest of the country.


Nonsense? Yeah, saying "I'm willing to pay millions for a train that doesn't exist on tracks that no longer exist and wouldn't run where I live, but am not willing to pay millions to maintain the infrastructure for a train that serves the largest population concentration in the country and makes an operational profit" makes perfect sense, Henry.

I'm not surprised that someone that thinks that's a logically consistent argument would consider reasonable posts to be "nonsense".


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## AlanB (Aug 17, 2011)

Gentlemen, please lets tone things down a bit. 



henryj said:


> I would rather pay "hundreds of millions in taxes" for that in place of the NEC which is a bottomless money pit and does nothing for me or the rest of the country.


Regarding the NEC Henry, please consider the following. Without the NEC mobility in the NE goes down. Lose mobility and one loses productivity. Productivity means taxes are being paid. So if you take away the NEC, tax revenues will go down putting a greater burden on the rest of the US.

In order to compensate without the NEC, the NE will be forced into building more airports and more roads. And the Fed has a hand in all those things too. So bottom line, no matter what you're going to see tax dollars being spent in the NE no matter what.

Now personally, and yes I know that I do benefit but please consider that I benefit without regard to whether we support roads & planes or rail, I'd rather see those dollars being spent on rail. And I hold out hope that as projects like the one in Illinios move forward and more people start seeing & realizing that you don't need the combined populations of Boston, NY, & DC for high or higher speed rail, hopefully more states will elect politicians that will push for rail without regard to their other beliefs & ideals.


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## eagle628 (Aug 17, 2011)

henryj said:


> As I believe I have made clear on here, I don't vote for Communists, socialists or DEMOCRATS. I believe in putting my state and my country before trains. If that is somehow bad for Amtrak then so be it.



Well, if you believe voting that way puts your country and state first, so be it. But it's complete hypocrisy to vote for politicians who make it a point to oppose Amtrak, and then complain about how Amtrak isn't expanding enough.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2011)

George Harris said:


> The thing you are achieving with all of these is additional connectivity. There are many more. I have not even tried to list all the things that should be done north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi. There are many possibilities there.


You hit the nail on the head! Connectivity is what produces network effect, which causes ridership and revenue to grow better than linearly, which is all goodness. The problem is finding the seed money. This is where we have work to do to get the right people with the right attitude towards LD trains elected to the various legislature. And I am not talking Democrat or Republican or Green or Libertarian. Irrespective of political shade one must consider the attitude they have towards transportation infrastructure as a whole and the concept of a balanced transportation system with the right mix of modes. Unless we agree that acting on that agenda is important, this discussion is mostly whistling in the wind IMHO.


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2011)

jis said:


> Unless we agree that acting on that agenda is important, this discussion is mostly whistling in the wind IMHO.


That's really the million dollar question - how do we get to that point?


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 18, 2011)

henryj said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Try electing some pro-rail politicians and see what happens.
> ...


Then quit whining about Texas not having enough trains. The Obama administration is the first since the inception of Amtrak that is favorable to passenger rail, but the Republicans have vowed to oppose anything he favors, even if it brings the whole country down (i.e. the debt ceiling fiasco), so obviously passenger rail will completely go down that tubes if the Republicans gain control of everything. Hope you enjoy that.


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## The Journalist (Aug 18, 2011)

henryj said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Try electing some pro-rail politicians and see what happens.
> ...









The sinking ship seems appropriate.



> EDIT: Okay, Nevada has it even worse at #48.


Yup. Nevada tends to be at the bottom of all the good lists and the top of all the bad ones. It's sort of a running (sad) joke around here that we recently passed Mississippi in some category (I want to guess teen pregnancy rate) and moved up 49th.


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## George Harris (Aug 18, 2011)

henryj said:


> LOL George, I did some quick research on this one and it is recreating the Frisco's KC-Florida special, which did go through Atlanta. It left Memphis at 10:25am, Birmingham at 4:25pm and Atlanta at 10:25pm. Arriving at Jacksonville at 7:30am. West/north bound it left Jacksonville at 9:20pm, Atlanta at 7:30am, Birmingham at 12:05pm and arrived in Memphis at 6:45pm. It's a perfect fit with the CONO's current schedule and connects with the existing Florida trains. You would probably have to run it down to Orlando(three more hours only) and turn it there since Amtrak is so much against doing switching on it's Florida trains. We need you to head up the LD division at Amtrak.


Rode the KC-Florida special by myself just after I got out of high school (1962) took the overnight Sunnyland south to B'ham, wandered around till noon and took the KC Fla north. Had my first meal in a dining car.

It could go through Atlant, but the problem is the excruciatingly slow line between B'ham and Atlanta. A connection to the current CNO schedule, assuming about the same 6.5 hour time on the ex-Frisco, should get it into B'ham about 2:00 or a little earlier, makeing for a good connection to the Crescent. Following the ex South Wind Route would give service to Montgomery AL and should get it into Jacksonville about 3:00am, and give an early morning arrival into Orlando. Likewise, the NB train would be about 4 hours later than the KC-Fla.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 18, 2011)

eagle628 said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > As I believe I have made clear on here, I don't vote for Communists, socialists or DEMOCRATS. I believe in putting my state and my country before trains. If that is somehow bad for Amtrak then so be it.
> ...


I dont either Henry, I live in Texas like you! There is no Socialists, Communists or Democrats on the ballot down here, they all are running for sheriff, bean counter in chief and Holy Preacher!(Oh yeah,Me too! is not a Political Platform!! :help: )The others made good points about those currently in office, and now the ultimate Twilight Zone Show has happened, Rick Perry is running for President of the Confederacy, er ,United States  . These guys want what Mica and his corporate owners want, Sell off the NEC, subsidize the heck out of it, make sure the "Private" operators dont pay any taxes once it starts making money, and then do away with all those pesky, money losing LD Trains out there in Flyover Country!Say goodbye to the Sunset Ltd. for sure! :angry:

True Story, you could look it up!!


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 18, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> eagle628 said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


I ended up talking to a federal judge from Texas the day before yesterday (and NO, I was not a 'customer' in her courtroom, ^_^ but enroute to a baseball game and we happened to strike up a conversation) and she said something that I thought was interesting about the Texas governorship, that people who are not from Texas generally don't realize: That the governor is very limited in the power he/she has to actually govern. :lol:


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## George Harris (Aug 18, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I ended up talking to a federal judge from Texas the day before yesterday (and NO, I was not a 'customer' in her courtroom, ^_^ but enroute to a baseball game and we happened to strike up a conversation) and she said something that I thought was interesting about the Texas governorship, that people who are not from Texas generally don't realize: That the governor is very limited in the power he/she has to actually govern. :lol:


That is true for almost all states.

There are some experiences in life I don't mind missing. Being a customer in a courtroom or a guest of somebody's government is one. Being shot is another.


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 18, 2011)

George Harris said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > ...she said something that I thought was interesting about the Texas governorship, that people who are not from Texas generally don't realize: That the governor is very limited in the power he/she has to actually govern. :lol:
> ...


Her point was that the governor of Texas' power is more limited than in other states.


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## saxman (Aug 18, 2011)

Which Rick Perry doesn't like so he just vetos everything.


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## henryj (Aug 18, 2011)

George Harris said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > LOL George, I did some quick research on this one and it is recreating the Frisco's KC-Florida special, which did go through Atlanta. It left Memphis at 10:25am, Birmingham at 4:25pm and Atlanta at 10:25pm. Arriving at Jacksonville at 7:30am. West/north bound it left Jacksonville at 9:20pm, Atlanta at 7:30am, Birmingham at 12:05pm and arrived in Memphis at 6:45pm. It's a perfect fit with the CONO's current schedule and connects with the existing Florida trains. You would probably have to run it down to Orlando(three more hours only) and turn it there since Amtrak is so much against doing switching on it's Florida trains. We need you to head up the LD division at Amtrak.
> ...


Well George, yesterday we appointed you the head of the LD train dept. Today your fired. :wacko: Reason....Atlanta pop = 5million+, Montgomery, Al pop = 375k. Track time B'ham to Atlanta for the Crescent is 4 hours not 6. And finally, no one wants to arrive in Jacksonville at 3 in the mornning. Stick to the old KC - Florida Special schedule. It makes more sense. Also gives Chicago and Atlanta passengers access to each other. One little interesting note on this for Florida fans. If this train ever came about you could now get from Florida to NOL without going through DC and without running the Sunset east or the former Gulf Wind. So the train would serve multiple purposes just like Amtrak likes it.

And if they restored the Eagle connection between Little Rock and Memphis you would have the equivalent of the 'Meridian Speedway' connection to the Crescent, thus DFW could now connect to either Atlanta, Florida or DC and New York without going through Chicago.


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## henryj (Aug 18, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > The Davy Crockett said:
> ...


That was done for a reason in that early Texans did not trust their government. The lieutenant Governor wields the power over the legislature. The Governor however, has the power of 'line item veto' so that makes the legislature behave. It apparently all works out as we are not broke like a lot of states. It also takes a constitutional amendment to change almost anything. There have been plenty of attempts to change all this but they have all failed totally as has any attempt to impose an income tax.

Rumor has it now that Chris Christi of New Jersey may enter the GOP race for President because the GOP isn't happy with Rick Perry. It's turning in to a 'free for all'. lol.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2011)

henryj said:


> It apparently all works out as we are not broke like a lot of states.


They're not?

http://www.texastribune.org/texas-taxes/2011-budget-shortfall/

I think that the GOP is realizing that holds true to their values and wants to run is going to have an electability problem.







I don't think that Christie is going to match on all 3 criteria either.

(Graphic taken from here: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/17/pondering-perrys-electability/ )


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## henryj (Aug 18, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> eagle628 said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


Jim like we have said before, it's a three ring circus isn't it. Perry also hinted that Texas should secede from the Union. lol. I think the Confederacy is alive and well in the back country. Have you ever been to S. Carolina? when they talk about the whawa over there they mean the War of Northern Agression or the War for Southern Independence. They are still fighting for it. :help:


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## henryj (Aug 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > It apparently all works out as we are not broke like a lot of states.
> ...


A budget shortfall doesn't mean you're broke. Texas has a big surplus sitting in the bank. What it means is they have to balance the budget by reducing spending to equal the revenue coming in. They have no choice. But they can tap into the surplus which I think they did to a certain extent. We are hearing now on the news that many school districts are rehiring some of the teachers the let go because the shortfall is not nearly as drastic as they were led to believe. The beat goes on.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 18, 2011)

From my perspective Texas' economy doesn't seem to be the result smart conservative planning so much as we're the inadvertent beneficiaries of geologic luck combined with America's inexplicable reliance on a dark and smelly puss buried deep in our state's underbelly. Even in that sense it's not quite the Christian miracle it's cracked up to be. We rank highly in low pay, poor air quality, poor water quality, the uninsured, scholastic ineptitude, and child poverty. Our education system ranks near the top in its reliance on federal aid and our custodians do such a good job teaching our children about their future that we've been known to pay them more than the actual teachers earn. But that doesn't mean we're all cynical and bitter about it. We have a knack for taking a bad situation and turning it around. Like when our our governor had the wonderful opportunity to refuse federal funds intended for unemployed Texans in the middle of the largest economic collapse since the Great Depression. Everyone was so happy that the money would be refused. Well, except for the unemployed I guess. But that didn't deter us one bit. In fact we're still busy finding new ways to make it harder for people at the bottom of the latter to vote so that we won't risk giving them any sort of voice in the future. Now, don't you want to be a part of this "miracle" we've created?


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## henryj (Aug 18, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> From my perspective Texas' economy doesn't seem to be the result smart conservative planning so much as we're the inadvertent beneficiaries of geologic luck combined with America's inexplicable reliance on a dark and smelly puss buried deep in our state's underbelly. Even in that sense it's not quite the Christian miracle it's cracked up to be. We rank highly in low pay, poor air quality, poor water quality, the uninsured, scholastic ineptitude, and child poverty. Our education system ranks near the top in its reliance on federal aid and our custodians do such a good job teaching our children about their future that we've been known to pay them more than the actual teachers earn. But that doesn't mean we're all cynical and bitter about it. We have a knack for taking a bad situation and turning it around. Like when our our governor had the wonderful opportunity to refuse federal funds intended for unemployed Texans in the middle of the largest economic collapse since the Great Depression. Everyone was so happy that the money would be refused. Well, except for the unemployed I guess. But that didn't deter us one bit. In fact we're still busy finding new ways to make it harder for people at the bottom of the latter to vote so that we won't risk giving them any sort of voice in the future. Now, don't you want to be a part of this "miracle" we've created?


I kind of like Texas personally and don't buy into this totally negative view presented here. I just want everyone to know that his is a totally minority view. Most Texans are very happy with their state, their government and their economy. We just don't have many trains. <_< But it is hot and dry here right now.


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## Big Iron (Aug 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Just because you have never seen communists and socialists run for office doesn't mean they haven't

2010 Election:

Socialist Party Candidates

Todd Vachon US Senate (CT)

Marc Luzietti for US Congress (20th District, FL)

Dan La Botz for US Senate (OH)

Nicholas Nix for US Congress (4th District, TX)

Jane Newton for US Congress (VT)

Greg Pason for Governor and Tino Rozzo for Lieutenant Governor (NJ)


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## George Harris (Aug 19, 2011)

henryj said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


I think you missed what I said. The 6.5 hours was the Birmingam - Memphis time of the KC-Fla Spec. I know the B'ham-Atlanta time is for the Crescent is 4 hours. In the 50's & 60's the KC-Fla Special time B'ham-Atl was aroud 4.5 to 5 hours. The access to Atlanta from Memphis was via the Crescent out of B'ham. It was not left out. The southbound KC-Fla Special Memphis-B'han schedule was around 5h45m, but that was near impossible to achieve. That I know first hand.


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## The Journalist (Aug 19, 2011)

Ryan said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > It apparently all works out as we are not broke like a lot of states.
> ...


Venn diagrams are fun! Though it would seem that the reason Pawlenty dropped out was because he wasn't electable? And wouldn't make it though the primaries due to not being conservative enough?

Funny to see Trump outside of all of them. I'm pretty sure his "candidacy" was him milking the election for free publicity, which he did brilliantly.

Wow, this has gone off topic. Uhh, how about that Sunset?


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## Donctor (Aug 19, 2011)

The Journalist said:


> Uhh, how about that Sunset?


Crying shame, eh?


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## jis (Aug 19, 2011)

The crying shame is that people expend all their energy venting here, and apparently too few have any energy left to vent on those that might make a difference, namely the Congress-critters.

The success of the Eagle is attributed to a grassroots movement - TEMPO. How about all those that can run up a thread half a dozen pages long here every month on this subject get together and form a grassroots organization to promote the Louisiana - Florida service and work diligently at it for a year or two. You never know, one might even succeed! But one thing is for sure, just venting here will not cause anything to change.


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Now, don't you want to be a part of this "miracle" we've created?


Absolutely not. In fact, if Gov Perry wants out, I'd be inclined to let TX go.

Jis, I think the missing piece is the "how to get started". I'd gladly work towards such a goal.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Jis, I think the missing piece is the "how to get started". I'd gladly work towards such a goal.


The leadership has to come from the local area. What one can do from afar is to possibly go there spend a few weeks and try to get the ball rolling provided one can find a few sufficiently motivated individuals locally. Otherwise it just won't work.

Then it just boils down to what I said earlier in the thread. If there is zero local political will and support it won't happen given the current political climate.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 19, 2011)

George Harris said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


Yes,to George. To elaborate, the KC Florida Special made two firm stops between BHM and ATL,that was Anniston and Bremen. And there were seven flag stops. Another train on that route, the Sunnyland, made similar stops. And there was an over night coach only local which made about 22 stops, most of them flag. The train we know today as the Crescent, was, keeping it simple,---the train then known as the Southerner----making just the one stop in Anniston.

Not to be left out, the Seaboard had a different route from BHM to ATL. It had three trains a day, the most well known being the Silver Comet. There is a "trail" named for that today.

Every time I stop at Anniston on the Crescent these days I am reminded that at one time one could reach Kansas City and Miami(in pullman, winter season)straight through from there as well as New York and New Orleans.


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## Big Iron (Aug 19, 2011)

jis said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Jis, I think the missing piece is the "how to get started". I'd gladly work towards such a goal.
> ...


Jis is correct, start locally. A good place to start is with regional economic development groups. These entities work to attract new business, create jobs, and sustain exisitng businesses. If these groups nationwide work in a similar fashion as in Virginia, the ones I'm familiar with have a direct line to the Governor, Congressmen and Senators. Local/State Legislators as well. A position paper of support from them to their cluster of State/Local Legislators can carry some weight as these groups help create jobs and bring in new businesses to increase the tax base. Frequent and multiple forms of transportation are important factors companies consider when deciding where to locate.

These economic development groups also tend to be apolitical. Both major parties support their efforts as it increases economic activity and creates new tax revenue. Said another way, both sides of the aisle respect their efforts and are willing to listen.

I'm not aware how other States are set up, again in VA, there are regional planning districts that are mainly Govt funded. One of their functions is to develop and promote regional transportation plans. One effort that I'm aware of is support of an Amtrak line from Richmond, through Petersburg, down to Norfolk on the existing NS line.


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## had8ley (Aug 19, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


The track onm the north side of the Anniston depot appears to be what was the main line to KC...how far does it run now and is it used often ?


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## George Harris (Aug 19, 2011)

had8ley said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > the KC Florida Special made two firm stops between BHM and ATL,that was Anniston and Bremen. And there were seven flag stops. Another train on that route, the Sunnyland, made similar stops. And there was an over night coach only local which made about 22 stops, most of them flag. The train we know today as the Crescent, was, keeping it simple,---the train then known as the Southerner----making just the one stop in Anniston.
> ...


The track on the nroth (actually compass east) side of the Anniston depot was the Southern Railway branch to Piedmont AL. I think that at one time it went beyond there all the way to Rome GA. In the other direction this line went to Talladega - Childrsburg - Calera and on ot meet the Southern's B'ham to Mobile line. The part south of Anniston is still in operation. The line to Piedmont appears to be gone.

In teh past teh L&N also had a line through Anniston and its own station. Their line came in from Claera through Sylacauga adn Talladega. it went north out of Talladega and paralleled the Southern line west of Anniston for its last few miles into town. It turned north to go to Gadsden adn did not go past the Southern station. All this line is now gone. It appears that Talladega to Sylacauga is still in place as a short line and from Wellington (junction with the former Seaboard) to Gadsden is, along with the SAL west of that point, still in place as another short line.


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## TWA904 (Aug 31, 2011)

It is my understanding that the SL could run from LA to Orlando with no additional equipment.

But could it run 4 days LA to Orlando with no additional equipment.


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## henryj (Aug 31, 2011)

TWA904 said:


> It is my understanding that the SL could run from LA to Orlando with no additional equipment.
> 
> But could it run 4 days LA to Orlando with no additional equipment.


NO.


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## VentureForth (Sep 1, 2011)

I just want to know if someone figured out why the Station in Houston points to Kansas City.


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## cirdan (Sep 1, 2011)

jis said:


> The crying shame is that people expend all their energy venting here, and apparently too few have any energy left to vent on those that might make a difference, namely the Congress-critters.
> 
> The success of the Eagle is attributed to a grassroots movement - TEMPO. How about all those that can run up a thread half a dozen pages long here every month on this subject get together and form a grassroots organization to promote the Louisiana - Florida service and work diligently at it for a year or two. You never know, one might even succeed! But one thing is for sure, just venting here will not cause anything to change.


Too true. Things change because people demand they change, and demand it visibly and demand it from the right people.

Things don't happen because of some invisible process that is beyond anybody's control. Or if it does it's only because people let it happen.


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## had8ley (Sep 1, 2011)

I have info from an impeccable source that Alabama is broke and couldn't put up two cents to re-start Sunset East service. This is the old "he did it" story~ "We wanted to run service (service suspension) BUT the states wouldn't come up with the $$$". The dead horse is now officially buried. hboy:


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## NY Penn (Sep 1, 2011)

henryj said:


> TWA904 said:
> 
> 
> > It is my understanding that the SL could run from LA to Orlando with no additional equipment.
> ...


It's actually true that no extra equipment is needed for a 3-day/week SSL to Florida. 4 days/week, there isn't enough equipment.


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## henryj (Sep 1, 2011)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The crying shame is that people expend all their energy venting here, and apparently too few have any energy left to vent on those that might make a difference, namely the Congress-critters.
> ...


We did this already. In January 2008 we formed the group called Sunset Marketing and Revitalization Team (SMART)at the behest of NARP. At the inaugural meeting we had reps from NARP, TEMPO, Amtrak, LARP, Mayor John Robert Smith, and numerous other groups and people. I chaired the meeting. Shortly after it was formed the team fractionalized into it's parochial groups and agenda's and started sniping at each other and it disintegrated in to a shouting match that no one wanted any part of, least of all Amtrak or TEMPO. In addition to that the group was dominated by Florida people who's sole purpose was to restore service to Florida, ignoring the state of the existing train which was treading on thin ice itself. Then Amtrak dropped the 'daily' bombshell and flatly stated they would never go back to Florida. It took two to three years, but this initiative has all but disapeared now as the responsible people just tired of the bickering and left. The initial web site on Google was abandoned when the LARP people took over and moved it to Yahoo. It is now pretty much abandoned itself. Of course each of these groups tried to ban the 'other' people they did not agree with. So now there are a couple of groups that still actively pursue improvements to the Sunset Limited which limps along just doing it's job with no improvements on the horizon. The following are the only two groups that are still active as far as I can tell.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SunsetFriends/

http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west?hl=en

When I found out about TEMPO at that first meeting I did not understand why they did not take this task on or why they did not step up after the daily service proposal was announced. I still don't know why. The PRI or PIP or whatever you call that study really proposed a daily Chicago to LAX Eagle. The Sunset is dead or confined to a coach only train SAS to NOL however you want to look at it. But as you can see from the posts here and elsewhere, the contraversy goes on and the Sunset gets nothing. If anyone wants to try and jump start this initiative feel free to join one of the existing groups and go for it. I for one have had enough.


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## trainviews (Sep 2, 2011)

henryj said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


That's understandable - and a sad story :unsure:

With that lack of cooperation nothing is ever going to happen, at least on a grander scale. The only way forward I see is to try to get some local/regional improvements, which might then seed the ground and up the pressure for a full restoration. By this I mean a Texas pressure to get a supplemental daily on the HOU-SAS segment or at least a supplement for the four "missing" days like the Hoosier. This will of course mean that Texas has to find money for a corridor service subsidy. It can later be extended to NOL.

The other obvious thing to do would be for Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama groups to press for an extension/daily service to connect Biloxi and Mobile. The run is pretty short, would fill a local need and could easily be done with the equipment already sitting in NOL. It should be relatively inexpensive to do, and the three days a week it runs as a SSL extension should fall under the LD budget. Amtrak might swallow that if the states pay for a corridor service the remaining four days.

In effect this will amount to a daily service Mobile-Houston. Aside from being the most densely populated segment of the route, it will also create a good deal of pressure to get both the full route restored and to get it daily. And even if that doesn't work, it will still be a great improvement for the region, which really needs to get started on feasible corridor services.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 2, 2011)

Is there a way to bring back the Sunset East _without_ losing money? Because if there isn't then I can't really blame Amtrak for ignoring this initiative. And with America's voters electing more and more intransigent Tea Party types I don't see Amtrak receiving any additional funding for a route like this.


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