# Are You Afraid Of Flying?



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I may be overestimating this factor but I believe one of the biggest reasons for LD train service is for people afraid of flying a means to travel long distance/coast to coast. Someone asked me why do I need a train from PHL-CHI when there are plenty of flights available? You know the answer to that. You'd probably ask why Las Vegas and Nashville also need trains for the same reason. I know many of you have traveled cross country on trains. Do you really not want to take trains to Vegas when you certainly will train cross country to Portland for Gathering 11? I know there is an active thread about going to Las Vegas and you can't take a train all the way to the Strip now. Does your fear of or dislike of flying a reason why you travel long distances on trains?

I do know many of you are from the pre-Amtrak days when air travel was not as abundant as it is today and/or rail travel was more abundant. On the other hand those in my generation have had to deal with just one (or two) trains from the East Coast to CHI and some large cities have just graveyard service. CIN has only graveyard service 3x/week but has been (not sure today) a Delta hub. HOS has 3/week service but was a Continental hub. If Cincinnati residents have a choice between a train that only comes in the middle of the night (and a really long train to WAS/NYP) or a choice of many flights to many destinations across the country, which would people in their 30's/40's take? Back in the 60's though there were many more trains to/from CHI and assuredly better times so I can see the "old" people having more of a love for trains. Back in my day I had no trains in my area before I moved. The PRIIA's in general have shown the average age of an LD train passenger is usually in the 50's (Crescent 58, Lake Shore Limited 54, Silver Service 57, https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/570/756/2011%20PRIIA%20210%20Report%2009-26-11_final.pdf. This is bad news for the market for LD travel in the future. For Amtrak's sake, hopefully the fear of terrorism and/or poor customer service will draw passengers away from flights, especially in that 200-500 mile range where the difference in travel time is not as much as for coast to coast travel. Faster trains outside of the NEC hopefully will help as well (it is clear travel inside the area is very popular). We know there is a market between NEC-CHI and NEC-Florida, the question is how do we grow these markets (and others)?


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## crabby_appleton1950

I may not be "_afraid of flying_", as I voted.

But all the hassle of going through security, increasing lack of room, diminished services, etc has turned me off on flying.

I've made three round trips to/from Albuquerque <-> San Diego in the past several years.

I can get there quicker and cheaper by plane, but choose to take Amtrak at a higher cost and requiring over night travel.

The one time I flew, the passenger next to me was practically sitting on my lap, and the one tiny bag of pretzels was comical.


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## TinCan782

I'm not afraid of flying, I find it undesirable.

Perhaps question one should be re-worded/split.


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## railiner

I think the generation that actually feared flying as being "dangerous" is mostly, or will soon be gone...it is now more a dislike of the experience, as it has evolved.

So more people will switch to other modes for shorter travel, but unless they are retired, or love train travel, will still tolerate the unpleasant air experience for transcontinental trips...


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## CraigDK

I am not afraid of flying. Although I would prefer to have the controls (as any good pilot does) when I am in an airplane (or car for that matter).


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## gswager

Flying may be good if you're well prepared for. Caught in a crowd is stressful- some people are having no common sense with those large suitcases or even tons of personal belongings, long lines, coughings, timing, weather delayed our even cancellation, etc.


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## bmjhagen9426

1. I'm not afraid of flying, but flying comes with hassles that I sometimes find undesirable (security lines, cramped seats, mediocre service, diminishing comps), although I receive better service during my international flights.

2. I have flown 6 times in 2012, 4 times a year in 2014 and 2015, twice in 2016, and none yet this year although I am flying at the end of this year (my first flight in almost two years), and of course it will be an international flight with either KAL or AAR, routing is either KSEA->RKSI or KLAX->RKSI.

For domestic flights, I have flown KSEA->KPDX (QXE) twice in 2012, KPDX->KORD (ASA/UAL) twice in 2014 and once in 2015, and KORD->KDEN (UAL) then KDEN->KPDX (UAL) in 2016.

For international flights, I have flown KSEA-RKSI (AAR) four times in 2012 and twice in 2013, RKSI->KSFO (KAL/AAR) once in 2013 and twice in 2014 and 2015, and KLAX->RKSI (KAL) once in 2013 and 2015 and twice in 2014.

For those not familiar with ICAO codes, I will save you research.

Airport codes:

KSEA: Seattle-Tacoma (SeaTac)

KPDX: Portland

KDEN: Denver

KORD: O'Hare

KLAX: Los Angeles

RKSI: Seoul-Inch'ŏn

Airline codes:

QXE: Horizon (Alaska/Horizon)

ASA: Alaska

UAL: United

KAL: Korean Air

AAR: Asiana

3. Since I live in Klamath Falls, I am taking the Coast Starlight to and from the Gathering.


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## AmtrakBlue

I enjoy take offs and landings. I don't mind the hassle at the airport.

I'm flying to SJC to visit family, then catching the CS to the gathering. Then taking the EB-CL-NER home


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## BCL

I don't know too many people who are afraid of flying. I just come from a generation where it was just so familiar and common. I know John Madden was well known for his fear of flying, but in before his dedicated buses he apparently took Amtrak.


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## Palmetto

I have two different answers for the two distinct questions in #1. Impossible to answer as it's currently set up.


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## jis

Far from being afraid of flying, I actually love to fly and look forward to it. Then again, I love to ride trains too and look forward to it and very actively campaign for its growth in the US as part of a balanced transportation policy. For me it is not at all an exclusive either/or question. Each has its proper place in the mix.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

The point I was trying to prove was that just because you have an airport doesn't mean you don't "need" an airport. Whether it is fear of or dislike for, there should be another option for those who don't/don't want to fly.


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## jis

Now I am baffled. How are any answer trends to those questions going to establish (or not) the point that you were trying to make? And of course it is not even clear to me what exactly the point is that you ar trying to test either.


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## Devil's Advocate

By the time I was old enough to comprehend what might be scary about flying I had already flown enough times to be completely comfortable with it. Perhaps I would have felt differently if I started flying as an adult during the early days of commercial aviation with lax regulations, poor maintenance, and cowboy pilots. I've flown across enormous oceans and through heavy rain, snow, fog, wind, lightning, and turbulence without issue. Even on flights where people around me are crying and praying I'm just chilling with a magazine or looking out the window. Many years ago there was one random flight over Arizona or New Mexico that really bothered me for five or ten minutes but that was it. It never happened before and hasn't happened since. Just some sort of random overactive lizard brain reaction to seeing a desert thirty thousand feet below me.


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## railiner

BCL said:


> I don't know too many people who are afraid of flying. I just come from a generation where it was just so familiar and common. I know John Madden was well known for his fear of flying, but in before his dedicated buses he apparently took Amtrak.


I had the good fortune of traveling on the SFZ three times when John Madden was aboard...He was not actually afraid of the flying, but rather he suffered from a severe form of claustrophobia, that really had him sweating, as soon as the airliner door was sealed shut. He did in fact fly while he was the head coach of the Oakland Raider's (he had to), but when he retired from that, and became a commentator for CBS, he traveled on Amtrak for a few years, until he was given the "Maddencruiser" motor home...


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## JayPea

I am not afraid to fly and never have. My first flight was at the age of seven and I still remember the eager anticipation I had of that flight. Much of that eagerness had to do with the fact our family was flying at the end of May and I got to leave first grade and our child-hating witch of a teacher several days early. But that's a story for a different day.  :lol: Like DA, I only recall once when I felt uneasy on a flight, and that was on the approach to Oakland's airport which is right on the bay. For whatever reason flying that low over water made me nervous. Maybe it's a family thing; my mom says the only time she was ever nervous on a flight was also on the approach to Oakland.

At any rate, I don't mind flying, and the TSA hassle is much less since I spent $85 to get a KTN last year. Best use of $85 I've had in years. For the trips I take, flying one way and taking the train works best as I have limited vacation time. I do prefer the train but fly when I need to. And don't mind doing so.


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## B757Guy

I'm not afraid of flying, but I am afraid at times of the 200+ people in the back, I'm responsible for! I've been an airline pilot for almost 19 years now, and most of the drama I've experienced has been passenger related.


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## ehbowen

I'm not afraid of flying, at all...I earned my ticket as a private aerobatic pilot in 1998, although I'm currently inactive for medical reasons. I just avoid airline travel as much as reasonably possible due to TSA/security issues, unbelievably cramped seating, and customer service which makes Amtrak look like a five-star resort.

I have a trip to St. Louis and back planned later this month for a conference. I'm taking Amtrak both ways. No airline hassles, and I should arrive from the overnight trip refreshed and in good shape...were I to drive I would either have to stop at a motel en route or else I would arrive totally wiped out and immediately have to go to my room and rest. In September, though, I'm planning an Alaskan cruise/tour with my parents. We're flying from Houston to Vancouver, BC (via LAX) on the outbound leg and from Fairbanks to Houston (via Anchorage and Seattle) on the return. No reasonable alternative to flying there.

(Yes, I know about the Alaska Marine Highway and we did take Amtrak from Houston to Vancouver last year. However, as a full-time employee with limited vacation time and income I don't consider an extra two weeks' travel time, and the associated expense, "reasonable".)


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## Devil's Advocate

B757Guy said:


> I've been an airline pilot for almost 19 years now, and most of the drama I've experienced has been passenger related.


To be fair to the passengers it's hard to imagine freight causing much drama. I'm not sure who you fly with but I've noticed that US airlines seem to have a lot more drama than most of the others. I've seen some weird stuff on airlines from Europe and Asia, but when it comes to genuine hatred and actual violence it's the US airlines that always seem to be at the top of the list. Although I have no proof I think it's a combination of factors starting with the airlines and airports treating their own staff very poorly, who then take it out on their customers, who then take it out on each other or direct it back at the airline staff again. It's a vicious cycle just waiting for the next flash point to heat up. It could be an as minor as an unexpected charge, the loss of a important amenity, being shoved ever closer to each other, or suffering a loss of dignity. In the end the only people who seem to benefit from the status quo are the faceless bean counters changing the rules hundreds or even thousands of miles away from the people whose lives they casually manipulate like meaningless pawns on a spreadsheet.


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## jis

DA I think it is a cultural thing. American culture leans towards threatening arrests, beating people up, tazering and ultimately simply opening fire on each other as a legitimate means of resolving arguments and solving problems, and it simply reflects everywhere. I find it odd that the very behavior we claim to strive to stop or mitigate in other countries by our intervention is precisely the stuff we tend to do to ourselves given half a chance at home. Oh well....


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## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> DA I think it is a cultural thing. American culture leans towards threatening arrests, beating people up, tazering and ultimately simply opening fire on each other as a legitimate means of resolving arguments and solving problems, and it simply reflects everywhere. I find it odd that the very behavior we claim to strive to stop or mitigate in other countries by our intervention is precisely the stuff we tend to do to ourselves given half a chance at home. Oh well....


Much as I hate to say it, that's a very good observation unfortunately.


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## Devil's Advocate

Metra Electric Rider said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> DA I think it is a cultural thing. American culture leans towards threatening arrests, beating people up, tazering and ultimately simply opening fire on each other as a legitimate means of resolving arguments and solving problems, and it simply reflects everywhere. I find it odd that the very behavior we claim to strive to stop or mitigate in other countries by our intervention is precisely the stuff we tend to do to ourselves given half a chance at home. Oh well....
> 
> 
> 
> Much as I hate to say it, that's a very good observation unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Agreed.


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## RSG

jis makes a very good observation about cultural norms, but I think it has less to do with the approach to resolving problems than the fact that American [uSA] society has different standards as it relates to expectations as well as personal space.

There are notable pictures about bus and rail travel from other parts of the world where the passengers are piled on like damp laundry and hanging out of the doors and windows. Aside from the regulatory and legal environment which would prohibit such conditions, there is no way that most Americans would tolerate being that close to another human for anything longer than an average urban public transit trip. When there are breakdowns in the latter and the people on board are trapped even for less than an hour the stories from the survivors are akin to hearing those from the front lines of overseas combat. So when the personal space on an airliner becomes more and more cramped, the anxiety level rises and with it the frustration and the impulse to act out about it (often, though not always, misdirected).

Frequent Amtrakers, including myself, can tell stories about new rail travelers who hit the dining car and are incensed because they can't have a table all to themselves or their one other companion. Community dining is an absurd concept and shouldn't be expected outside of a commune, college or camp dining hall, or hippie restaurant. Yet in other parts of the world it's rather common and quite ordinary.

All in all, there's a sense of entitlement among most of the social classes in the US that one usually only finds in the upper echelon in other countries. On our airlines we want the seat pitch and comfort of an average Amtrak coach seat in nothing more than a 2 x 2 configuration with full meal service in coach, luggage which flies for no additional charge, and no more than a median cost of $280 round trip between two multi-state destinations. That such a scenario just isn't possible in modern society (and, with very few exceptions, never was), doesn't phase those who think it should be the norm and react in antisocial ways when they realize only one of those requirements might be an option on any given flight.


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## Metra Electric Rider

RSG said:


> Frequent Amtrakers, including myself, can tell stories about new rail travelers who hit the dining car and are incensed because they can't have a table all to themselves or their one other companion. Community dining is an absurd concept and shouldn't be expected outside of a commune, college or camp dining hall, or hippie restaurant. Yet in other parts of the world it's rather common and quite ordinary.


Oddly enough the shared table concept in trendy restaurants seems to have eased up a bit or eased off in acceptance. I'm trying to remember, as an aside, if one could have a private table when we traveled in Europe in the past, but just can't remember.


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## jis

Speaking of cultural norms, I came across a very intriguing, interesting one on my last trip to India. What I describe below appears to be the norm only in the Kolkata South Suburban section of Eastern Railway. I did not observe it anywhere else in Kolkata Suburban service.

My sister and I were traveling on a longish trip by suburban train in the Kolkata South Suburban section from Ballygunge to the end of the line almost on the Bay of Bengal at Namkhana (you can look it up in a map if you like - Ballygunge is the second stop from the terminal station at Sealdah South). Since we got on at Ballygunge which is not the originating station of the service, we piled in as is usual into an already SRO train, and were reconciled to standing all the way. Of course as the train proceeded further from Kolkata it started emptying out some and a few got seats, but mostly those that were standing continued to stand. Until we reached about the halfway point, at which the strangest thing happened. Everyone that was sitting stood up and offered their seats to people that were standing, and we managed to get seats! We were mystified and asked folks what happened. They said that this is a tradition on this line. People like to share their good fortune of getting a seat with their fellow passengers. I chalked that one up for collective sense of humanity of people who otherwise are poor to lower middle class in most cases on that line. Indeed south of a certain point on that line, if you travel at night you will find a distinct lack of electricity except on the railway, which is electrified, as are almost all busy line on the IR. Chalk one up for local tradition that is exemplary.

Naturally on the way back we knew what to do when the halfway point was reached, should the need arise. Fortunately we were by then in late evening traveling against the major outbound flow from Kolkata, so the train was not crowded enough to require anyone to stand.


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## B757Guy

jis said:


> Speaking of cultural norms, I came across a very intriguing, interesting one on my last trip to India. What I describe below appears to be the norm only in the Kolkata South Suburban section of Eastern Railway. I did not observe it anywhere else in Kolkata Suburban service.
> 
> My sister and I were traveling on a longish trip by suburban train in the Kolkata South Suburban section from Ballygunge to the end of the line almost on the Bay of Bengal at Namkhana (you can look it up in a map if you like - Ballygunge is the second stop from the terminal station at Sealdah South). Since we got on at Ballygunge which is not the originating station of the service, we piled in as is usual into an already SRO train, and were reconciled to standing all the way. Of course as the train proceeded further from Kolkata it started emptying out some and a few got seats, but mostly those that were standing continued to stand. Until we reached about the halfway point, at which the strangest thing happened. Everyone that was sitting stood up and offered their seats to people that were standing, and we managed to get seats! We were mystified and asked folks what happened. They said that this is a tradition on this line. People like to share their good fortune of getting a seat with their fellow passengers. I chalked that one up for collective sense of humanity of people who otherwise are poor to lower middle class in most cases on that line. Indeed south of a certain point on that line, if you travel at night you will find a distinct lack of electricity except on the railway, which is electrified, as are almost all busy line on the IR. Chalk one up for local tradition that is exemplary.
> 
> Naturally on the way back we knew what to do when the halfway point was reached, should the need arise. Fortunately we were by then in late evening traveling against the major outbound flow from Kolkata, so the train was not crowded enough to require anyone to stand.


That is pretty amazing. Great story, thanks for sharing! We do see a little of that here in the States. I've witnessed passengers giving up seats in first class or premium economy to the elderly and members of the armed forces. It's nice to know kindness does exist out there!


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## Metra Electric Rider

B757Guy said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of cultural norms, I came across a very intriguing, interesting one on my last trip to India. What I describe below appears to be the norm only in the Kolkata South Suburban section of Eastern Railway. I did not observe it anywhere else in Kolkata Suburban service.
> 
> My sister and I were traveling on a longish trip by suburban train in the Kolkata South Suburban section from Ballygunge to the end of the line almost on the Bay of Bengal at Namkhana (you can look it up in a map if you like - Ballygunge is the second stop from the terminal station at Sealdah South). Since we got on at Ballygunge which is not the originating station of the service, we piled in as is usual into an already SRO train, and were reconciled to standing all the way. Of course as the train proceeded further from Kolkata it started emptying out some and a few got seats, but mostly those that were standing continued to stand. Until we reached about the halfway point, at which the strangest thing happened. Everyone that was sitting stood up and offered their seats to people that were standing, and we managed to get seats! We were mystified and asked folks what happened. They said that this is a tradition on this line. People like to share their good fortune of getting a seat with their fellow passengers. I chalked that one up for collective sense of humanity of people who otherwise are poor to lower middle class in most cases on that line. Indeed south of a certain point on that line, if you travel at night you will find a distinct lack of electricity except on the railway, which is electrified, as are almost all busy line on the IR. Chalk one up for local tradition that is exemplary.
> 
> Naturally on the way back we knew what to do when the halfway point was reached, should the need arise. Fortunately we were by then in late evening traveling against the major outbound flow from Kolkata, so the train was not crowded enough to require anyone to stand.
> 
> 
> 
> That is pretty amazing. Great story, thanks for sharing! We do see a little of that here in the States. I've witnessed passengers giving up seats in first class or premium economy to the elderly and members of the armed forces. It's nice to know kindness does exist out there!
Click to expand...

That is pretty amazing. I remember offering my seat on a streetcar to an older woman in Norway and practically being shoved back into my seat (however, she seemed flattered that I had offered).


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## Mystic River Dragon

Not really afraid of flying itself. It's more being cooped up in unhealthy air, with lots of strangers, and feeling a bit claustrophobic. I would get the same feeling in a crowded elevator or in a noisy, crowded, and rude city at rush hour.

I think it's really not having any control over your own space that I don't like. With a train, you at least have the option of walking around and changing your surroundings.


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## Bob Dylan

DA and jis win this thread!


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## Dave Van

> Afraid of being treated as cattle.......recent events back that up. Flew for work....but no more....


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## RichardK

I am not afraid of flying. However, the experience is claustrophobic and generally undesirable. The thought of being sealed up in a tube with 200 other people and almost no room to move is unsettling. Once they close the doors and takeoff, there is nothing you can do if a problem occurs. We just hope the pilots are having a good day.

Trains are a more pleasant experience, with dining car, cafe, or lounge available.

Driving is certainly not that safe, but at least I am in control.


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## railiner

Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.


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## CCC1007

railiner said:


> Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.


American or Alaska Airlines?


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## Devil's Advocate

CCC1007 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> American or Alaska Airlines?
Click to expand...

AA is the IATA code for American Airlines. Alaska Airlines is AS.


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## Anderson

I am not afraid of flying but I do find flying to be (generally) a quite unpleasant and broadly undesirable experience, particularly in what passes for "economy" these days. I have done a reasonable amount of it (I've actually flown all the way around the world) but mostly in J (int'l) or F (domestic).

With that said, I'm also used to taking the train places (and used to being able to get a comfortable accommodation en route...either a roomette or an LD coach seat for the most part) and so I'm "spoiled for space", so to speak.


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## railiner

Devil's Advocate said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> American or Alaska Airlines?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AA is the IATA code for American Airlines. Alaska Airlines is AS.
Click to expand...

It was American. I sat in "Main Cabin Extra", and had sufficient room to stick my legs straight out fully, under the seat ahead of me, and get a pretty good nap each way.It was about 5 hours, 40 minutes going, and 4 hours, 45 minutes returning, account winds aloft...


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## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> American or Alaska Airlines?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AA is the IATA code for American Airlines. Alaska Airlines is AS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was American. I sat in "Main Cabin Extra", and had sufficient room to stick my legs straight out fully, under the seat ahead of me, and get a pretty good nap each way.It was about 5 hours, 40 minutes going, and 4 hours, 45 minutes returning, account winds aloft...
Click to expand...

I figured anyone who was aware enough to write 738 probably knew all about domestic booking codes. ^_^

I previously flew AA for both domestic and international flights after they adopted TW's MRTC. When AA abandoned MRTC I switched to UA's E+. Initially by individual purchase, then by annual subscription, and then by status. As I started to shift more of my intercontinental flying to Asian airlines my status with UA eventually expired. UA raised the annual E+ global subscription 133% from $300 to $700. By that time the 788's were starting to come along and the new style economy seats were slim enough for long haul flights to be workable again. Unfortunately on my last intercontinental trip even the 788 and 789 rows had been squished so close that it was miserable for someone of my height. These days if there is a domestic nonstop on WN I'll take that. If not I'll fly DL for domestic connections since their Comfort+ is the easiest to purchase (books directly into its own fare basis) and seems to provide the most benefits (more pitch, more recline, AC power, priority boarding, cocktails, etc.) . For intercontinental flights I've dumped the domestics and fly Asian or European airlines in PE instead.


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## CCC1007

Devil said:


> railiner said:
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> 
> Devil said:
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> CCC1007 said:
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> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just back this afternoon from a weekend (Friday night till today) in Seattle area....took AA 45 and AA 44, back. B-738's. While the flight's were almost full, had a pretty good experience, competent crew's, and no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> American or Alaska Airlines?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AA is the IATA code for American Airlines. Alaska Airlines is AS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was American. I sat in "Main Cabin Extra", and had sufficient room to stick my legs straight out fully, under the seat ahead of me, and get a pretty good nap each way.It was about 5 hours, 40 minutes going, and 4 hours, 45 minutes returning, account winds aloft...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was only intended to reply to CCC1007. I figured anyone who was aware enough to write 738 probably knew all about domestic booking codes. ^_^
> I flew AA for both domestic and international flights after they adopted TW's MRTC. When they abandoned MRTC I stopped flying AA and switched to UA's E+. Initially by individual purchase, then annual subscription, and then by status. As I started to shift more of my intercontinental flying to Asian airlines my status with UA expired. Unfortunately UA had raised the annual E+ global subscription from around $300 to $700. Luckily by that time the 787 were starting to come along and the new seats were slim enough long haul flights to be workable. In conventional economy. Unfortunately on my last intercontinental trip even the 789 seats had been squished so close that it was miserable for someone of my height. These days if there is a domestic nonstop on WN I'll take that. If not I'll fly C+ on DL for domestic trips. For intercontinental flights I've dumped all the domestics and fly Asian or European airlines in PE instead.
Click to expand...

I was just trying to get clarification for those of us not in the know, as some have said that abbreviations are hard in the past, and may have assumed that it was an abbreviation for either of the two I listed. Considering my new job I should know all of the codes soon, as I am working with (OO) Skywest airlines!


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## Devil's Advocate

CCC1007 said:


> I was just trying to get clarification for those of us not in the know, as some have said that abbreviations are hard in the past, and may have assumed that it was an abbreviation for either of the two I listed. Considering my new job I should know all of the codes soon, as I am working with (OO) Skywest airlines!


There are far too many codes for any one person to reliably remember all of them. Or at least I cannot. :wacko:

New codes are being added and old codes are being retired all the time. Some codes are duplicated across multiple operators due to shared certificates or lack of regional overlap, so it's a never ending battle to keep everything straight in your head. I track the airlines I've flown and airports I've visited in my own list. Otherwise I'd struggle to remember the difference between Republic Airlin*e* (YX) vs Republic Airline*s* (RC) or JAL (JL) vs JALways (JO). Remember subsidiaries like DL's Song and UA's Ted that flew under the same operating certificate as the parent but with incompatible (pay reducing and entitlement eroding) labor contracts? Ever wondered why Southwest was coded as "WN" or why "SW" was given to Air Nambia? Or how Canada ended up with a long series of YY codes? The history of IATA is as curious as it is complex.


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## PRR 60

Devil's Advocate said:


> ... Ever wondered why Southwest was coded as "WN" or why "SW" was given to Air Nambia? Or how Canada ended up with a long series of YY codes? The history of IATA is as curious as it is complex.


As I understand it, Air Namibia's having the code "SW" pre-dates Southwest Airlines and is based on their prior name,"Suid-Wes Lugdiens" (South-West Air Service). With SW not available, Southwest looked for something that was available and at least sort of worked, and grabbed WN. There is a legend at Southwest that Herb Kelleher said "WN" stood for "We're nuts."

Now, B6 for jetBlue, OO for SkyWest, and even 2V for Amtrak? No clue.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PRR 60 said:


> Now, B6 for jetBlue, OO for SkyWest, and even 2V for Amtrak? No clue.


Maybe OO is for Oh Oh!


----------



## jis

New airlines often seem to get completely random letter-number pairs. Afterall there are only so many meaningful pairs of letters.

All the new airlines in India have these weird airline codes Jet Airways 9W, IndiGo 6E, Go Air G8, Spice Jet SG etc.), while the old timers like Air India (AI), Indian Airlines (while it existed - IC) have meaningful ones.

Interestingly, British Airways managed to get BA even when it was BOAC. I suppose they could as well have gone for SB for Speedbird, which has been their call sign dating back to the days of Imperial Airways AFAIR. And Aeroflot still has SU which presumably comes from Soviet Union perhaps?


----------



## saxman

I'm pretty scared of flying. I usually just close my eyes when I land. So far it has worked out pretty well.  In 2016 I worked 475 flights plus rode as a passenger on a hundred more.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

saxman said:


> I'm pretty scared of flying. I usually just close my eyes when I land. So far it has worked out pretty well.  In 2016 I worked 475 flights plus rode as a passenger on a hundred more.


----------



## Ryan

PRR 60 said:


> 2V


2V, or not 2V, that is the question!

(ok, that really only works out loud)



Devil's Advocate said:


> DL for domestic connections since their Comfort+ is the easiest to purchase (books directly into its own fare basis)


That actually screwed me over, as the fares that the government purchases eliminates the nominal upcharge to get C+. I would gladly pay it for my BWI-ATL-PNS legs, but when they wanted several hundred bucks to make it happen, I opted to shift my business to MOB since AA had the contract fare.

Fortunately for FY17 AA won both the BWI/PNS and BWI/MOB contracts, so it's AA either way. I much prefer to fly in to PNS, as I have far better luck of actually getting a rental car when I land.


----------



## jis

saxman said:


> I'm pretty scared of flying. I usually just close my eyes when I land. So far it has worked out pretty well.  In 2016 I worked 475 flights plus rode as a passenger on a hundred more.


Our resident CAT III guy


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> DL for domestic connections since their Comfort+ is the easiest to purchase (books directly into its own fare basis)
> 
> 
> 
> That actually screwed me over, as the fares that the government purchases eliminates the nominal upcharge to get C+. I would gladly pay it for my BWI-ATL-PNS legs, but when they wanted several hundred bucks to make it happen, I opted to shift my business to MOB since AA had the contract fare. Fortunately for FY17 AA won both the BWI/PNS and BWI/MOB contracts, so it's AA either way. I much prefer to fly in to PNS, as I have far better luck of actually getting a rental car when I land.
Click to expand...

I never considered that until you mentioned it but I can understand the other side of the coin. Most of my flights are personal rather than business and I prefer to have the whole thing wrapped up at booking time. Having to search for a coach ticket first and then having to confirm and purchase a separate upgrade on top of the coach fare makes things more tedious to compare and book. If something changes (aircraft, schedule, routing etc.) the upgrade can become orphaned and get left behind during the rebooking process. At which point I'll need to make a phone call or visit a ticket counter to request it be reapplied manually. Depending on the agent they may refuse to assist since onboard upgrades are technically nonrefundable and nontransferable. Just depends on who you get and these days I try to do everything I can to avoid interacting with US airline staff. Therefore having a fare basis that is already inclusive of the upgrade is highly preferable to me.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty scared of flying. I usually just close my eyes when I land. So far it has worked out pretty well.  In 2016 I worked 475 flights plus rode as a passenger on a hundred more.
> 
> 
> 
> Our resident CAT III guy
Click to expand...

With full Auto-land?


----------



## XHRTSP

I can fly for free and can even avoid TSA at a lot of airports, yet every now and then I take the train. Some routes like SEA-PDX, SEA-YVR, ORD-MKE, the train is just better suited. Unfortunately there just aren't that many of those pairings.


----------



## Maglev

I simply don't travel very often any more, and prefer trains. From1984 to 2004, I had free travel privileges on United Airlines, and at that time I was living on Maui so I made many trips to the mainland. Seriously--now that I live on Orcas Island, I make almost as many ferry trips to the mainland per year as I did airplane trips while living in Hawaii.

This year, I am traveling more than I have since moving here in 2004. I took the train to Florida in January, and will be taking the _Cascades_ to the Gathering in September. Also, my wife and I will be going to Oahu in December. It is almost impossible to get there without flying, and for me flying is like taking the train: not a cheap experience. Just getting to Seattle costs $600 ($150 per person each way), and to Hawaii I bought refundable first-class tickets for several times the cost of coach.

I am not really any more afraid of flying than I am of taking the train. I have felt similarly out-of-control of my personal safety while being awakened in an upper berth on the _California Zephyr _rocketing across Nebraska as I felt on an MD-11 suddenly plummeting in wind-shear over the Pacific Ocean. But I am afraid of driving on freeways and in urban traffic. That is a big reason we take the ferry to the mainland so rarely, and why we are flying to Seattle for the trip to Hawaii instead of driving.


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most of my flights are personal rather than business and I prefer to have the whole thing wrapped up at booking time.


Yep, if for personal travel I'm much agreed. Not getting tickled until 3 days before travel drives me insane.


----------



## railiner

XHRTSP said:


> I can fly for free and can even avoid TSA at a lot of airports, yet every now and then I take the train. Some routes like SEA-PDX, SEA-YVR, ORD-MKE, the train is just better suited. Unfortunately there just aren't that many of those pairings.


Flying NRSA (standby), is a lot tougher now than it was many years ago. The Yield Management has got the load factors at an all-time high, so its's difficult to enjoy that privilege...of course being jumpseat eligible, increases your chances...


----------



## XHRTSP

Being able to ride with the cargo guys helps too. The hours aren't the best, but it's pretty much a guaranteed first class to where you want to go.

My company needs a reciprocal jumpseat agreement with BNSF, then I'd take the train a lot more. I'm sure the FAA and FRA wouldn't stand in the way of that at all...


----------



## railiner

XHRTSP said:


> Being able to ride with the cargo guys helps too. The hours aren't the best, but it's pretty much a guaranteed first class to where you want to go.
> 
> My company needs a reciprocal jumpseat agreement with BNSF, then I'd take the train a lot more. I'm sure the FAA and FRA wouldn't stand in the way of that at all...


While your getting those arrangements done, you might as well include Cunard Line....the Queen Mary 2 has lots of "jump seats" on its bridge....


----------



## Carolina Special

When my older sister got married in late 1960s, her new husband decided to save money on their honeymoon by flying standby. He got bumped at the last minute. His new bride wound up in Denver with no husband, no money and contemplating an early divorce. He chose...poorly. 

As for me, I fly infrequently and do find myself saying a prayer when we take off. Probably comes from reading too many stories about crashes. Even if statistically speaking of course, it's still the safest way to travel. That along with the lack of room in coach, poor window views, and TSA strip searches make me not too thrilled with the flying experience.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I was watching some Horizons episode about plane crashes and they claimed that flying was the second scariest event in most people's lives. Only public speaking was worse. I can understand the public speaking part. Public speaking is something you perform yourself and are immediately judged upon. If it's a disaster then it's all on you for screwing it up. Most of us don't do much public speaking on a regular basis and thus rarely have much time to get used to it.

However, flying is relatively common for many of us, so common in fact that we begin to take it for granted. You can fly while reading a book or watching a movie or even sleeping. Nothing terribly scary about any of that. No matter how bad the flight goes you're not going to be held responsible for it unless you're in a cockpit or control tower. I guess many people fear being injured or killed but those are irrational fears that aren't based on statistically significant threats. If anything those people should fear getting inside a fast car or slippery bathtub or dark alleyway instead.


And she chose...him. 50/50 screwup IMO.


----------



## saxman

PRR 60 said:


> Now, B6 for jetBlue, OO for SkyWest, and even 2V for Amtrak? No clue.


JetBlue; B for Blue and 6 for Terminal 6 at JFK which was their first main hub. Now they operate out of the newly built Terminal 5.


----------



## Ryan




----------



## dogbert617

Like others said, NOT afraid of flying whatsoever! Just find it undesirable with the higher ticket cost vs. Amtrak, the TSA security process (the no liquids in carry on bags rule especially annoys me), how tightly packed and less legroom between seats it is on flights (vs. Amtrak), and finally how all airlines except Southwest (I believe, correct me if there are others out there too) have moved to charging for checked baggage.

I'd so rather take Amtrak if I have a choice, since it's FAR more relaxing vs. flying. It isn't as fast, but if I can, I'd rather take Amtrak over flying. And the occasional smoke/fresh air stops are nice on long distance trains, too. I know they can't always do those for late running trains(when they're shortened or eliminated), but it is a nice feature about long distance train travel, if the train is running on time or not too late off the normal schedule.


----------



## CAWA123

I'm not afraid to fly. I hate flying for what it's become because of regulations and being sandwiched in between a bunch of stressful people. People are in such a hurry these days. Taking the train brings life to a more relaxed and enjoyable pace. I'm not in a hurry. I want to be comfortable and enjoy life.


----------



## GBNorman

I have only been scared once in this life on an aircraft, and that was along about '94 on a "what's that airline" chartered for a Vegas package tour (had a GF -now deceased - who thought I was "too loose with the loot"; so she announced "we're going to Vegas MY way - on the cheap").

Well, I have no idea how many flight hours he had to his name, but his final to KLAS 26R should have been a go around. No he ended up "diving" with about half the Runway gone.

Hard to believe, he was standing at the door. I had to say something: "Hey, liked your Fighter Pilot approach". All I got back was a smile of sorts.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

GBNorman said:


> I have only been scared once in this life on an aircraft, and that was along about '94 on a "what's that airline" chartered for a Vegas package tour (had a GF -now deceased - who thought I was "too loose with the loot"; so she announced "we're going to Vegas MY way - on the cheap"). Well, I have no idea how many flight hours he had to his name, but his final to KLAS 26R should have been a go around. No he ended up "diving" with about half the Runway gone. Hard to believe, he was standing at the door. I had to say something: "Hey, liked your Fighter Pilot approach". All I got back was a smile of sorts.


I'm curious how you went about determining that half the runway distance was exhausted prior to touchdown. Were you matching up markers to an airport diagram as the plane was landing? If LAS were your home airport I could understand being able to simply guesstimate the distance through basic situational awareness but it doesn't seem that's the case from your post.


----------



## GBNorman

Devil's Advocate said:


> If LAS were your home airport I could understand being able to simply guesstimate the distance through basic situational awareness but it doesn't seem that's the case from your post.


"Situational awareness" sums it up. I think I've been on enough flights over the years - and sitting window forward or aft of the wing depending on what I'm willing to pay for - to know how the ground should look on an approach. In that instance, I think he was some 700ft AGL at the threshold. The runway's warning lights were quite visible and he had to make a turnaround to get to a taxiway.
Aircraft was an MD-80 varietal.

What more can this "pilot" with about 100 hours of "Air Microsoft" say?


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> If LAS were your home airport I could understand being able to simply guesstimate the distance through basic situational awareness but it doesn't seem that's the case from your post.
> 
> 
> 
> "Situational awareness" sums it up. I think I've been on enough flights over the years - and sitting window forward or aft of the wing depending on what I'm willing to pay for - to know how the ground should look on an approach. In that instance, I think he was some 700ft AGL at the threshold. The runway's warning lights were quite visible and he had to make a turnaround to get to a taxiway.
> Aircraft was an MD-80 varietal.
> 
> What more can this "pilot" with about 100 hours of "Air Microsoft" say?
Click to expand...

Okay. I'm going to address everything you just said.


"Situational awareness" doesn't let you magically calculate runway lengths.
How do you know how experienced this pilot was?
I have almost 6000 hours on Flight Simulator X and I'm still not be qualified to judge a real pilot or a landing from the cabin of an airliner.


----------



## B757Guy

I get critiqued by passengers all the time, and have had some even try to argue with me about my flying technique when landing (i.e. flap settings, speeds, etc). I typically just smile and wish them a good day,


----------



## Bob Dylan

B757Guy said:


> I get critiqued by passengers all the time, and have had some even try to argue with me about my flying technique when landing (i.e. flap settings, speeds, etc). I typically just smile and wish them a good day,


Everyone's a Better Driver and Pilot than the actual Driver/Pilot when playing Arm Chair Commando!


----------



## railiner

B757Guy said:


> I get critiqued by passengers all the time, and have had some even try to argue with me about my flying technique when landing (i.e. flap settings, speeds, etc).


Actually, I am rather shocked at hearing this....I couldn't even imagine someone to have the utter gall to do that....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> B757Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get critiqued by passengers all the time, and have had some even try to argue with me about my flying technique when landing (i.e. flap settings, speeds, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am rather shocked at hearing this....I couldn't even imagine someone to have the utter gall to do that....
Click to expand...

It's not that surprising to me. I've heard passengers criticize or congratulate pilots over the softness/harshness of the landing many times. I can't recall ever seeing an an extended technical argument but I don't normally stick around to chat with the crew so maybe it happens after I'm gone. If the weather is really poor then even a hard landing seems to garner a lot of positive feedback. Although, to the best of my understanding the rougher the landing the more likely it was handled by an auto-land algorithm. Apparently auto-land focuses on firm planting for safety rather than soft landing for comfort.


----------



## ehbowen

Devil's Advocate said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B757Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get critiqued by passengers all the time, and have had some even try to argue with me about my flying technique when landing (i.e. flap settings, speeds, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am rather shocked at hearing this....I couldn't even imagine someone to have the utter gall to do that....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not that surprising to me. I've heard passengers criticize or congratulate pilots over the softness/harshness of the landing many times. I can't recall ever seeing an an extended technical argument but I don't normally stick around to chat with the crew so maybe it happens after I'm gone. If the weather is really poor then even a hard landing seems to garner a lot of positive feedback. Although, to the best of my understanding the rougher the landing the more likely it was handled by an auto-land algorithm. Apparently auto-land focuses on firm planting for safety rather than soft landing for comfort.
Click to expand...

My very first flight with a passenger (other than an instructor or check pilot) was with my mother the night I got my ticket, in the Super Decathlon I learned to fly in. I took her up for a circle tour following the Gulf Freeway as far as Galveston, around the island, up along the shore of Galveston Bay, then following the Ship Channel back towards downtown before turning south for Hobby Airport and 12 Right. The sky was clear and all of the city and refinery lights were on; it was magical. I don't care how long I fly or how many airplanes I fly in, I'll never make a better landing. We never even felt the wheels touch. June 30th, 1998; exactly one hour on the Hobbs meter. Wish I could do it again.

Edit To Add: This isn't me in the picture, but this is the plane:


----------



## lordsigma

I do have a fear of flying. Driving is the easiest for me because I am in "control" of the situation but I have grown to be able to take Amtrak as an alternative to flying and to save myself drving everywhere. Sometimes I even get nervous on the train but its far more manageable being on the ground. In addition to the fear I am not the smallest person in the world and the cramped economy seating on coach flights makes the trip unenjoayable and adding the discomfort the genreal dislike/fear of flying. If Im going to spend a bunch on premium accommodations I'd rather get a sleeper on an Amtrak train.

Flying just involves a tremendous amount of stress for me leading up to the trip. I don't encounter the same level of fear/stress taking the train or driving.


----------



## Bob Dylan

ehbowen:loved your First Flight with a Passenger story!

Mine was in a Cessna 172 with my Wife and Daughter around the Hill Country,Canyon Lake followed by a Landing @ San Antonio International (SAT) for Dinner.

I made a Greaser of a Landing @ SAT and also upon returning home to San Marcos Loman Field.( now a Shopping Mall!).

On the way to SAT I had to look out for T-38s zipping in/out of Randolph FAB and then Airline Traffic upon entering the San Antonio TCA.

Wonderful Memories are made from things like this!( My daughter is now 50 and she still talks about it!)


----------



## cpotisch

Wow. I didn't realize how many people here have pilots' licenses. Hopefully this'll be me some day.


----------



## GBNorman

lordsigma said:


> I do have a fear of flying. Driving is the easiest for me because I am in "control"...
> 
> Flying just involves a tremendous amount of stress for me leading up to the trip.


"It doesn't matter how straight the gate,How charged the punishments and scroll.

For I am the master of my fate,

I am the Captain of my soul".

Invictus

William Ernest Henley

Just like you, I don't drive under any of the "three D's" - Drunk, Doped, Drowsy.

I know full well how the statistical odds are so much more with you with either rail or air transportation, but if situational awareness is lost by me behind the wheel, I stand accountable. I need not be concerned with, however unintentional, a Locomotive Engineer loses same and causes fatalities, or an airline Flight Deck where "the Captain's word is law" and no other Officer dare challenge that he is missing a visual approach (Asiana SFO Jul '13).


----------



## railiner

GBNorman said:


> or an airline Flight Deck where "the Captain's word is law" and no other Officer dare challenge that he is missing a visual approach (Asiana SFO Jul '13).


I thought that "Cockpit Resource Management" training was supposed to correct that old culture....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> or an airline Flight Deck where "the Captain's word is law" and no other Officer dare challenge that he is missing a visual approach (Asiana SFO Jul '13).
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that "Cockpit Resource Management" training was supposed to correct that old culture....
Click to expand...

According to the accident report Asiana’s problem was that it had poor to non-existent CRM in deference to Asian Culture if unquestioned obedience of the senior person. 
They have supposedly fixed this since then.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or an airline Flight Deck where "the Captain's word is law" and no other Officer dare challenge that he is missing a visual approach (Asiana SFO Jul '13).
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that "Cockpit Resource Management" training was supposed to correct that old culture....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the accident report Asiana’s problem was that it had poor to non-existent CRM in deference to Asian Culture if unquestioned obedience of the senior person. They have supposedly fixed this since then.
Click to expand...

According to a documentary I watched the primary catalyst was a severe misunderstanding of auto-throttle recovery system. CRM has done a lot to improve safety but it's not a magic bullet. It can identify potential problems and solutions but it cannot force superiors and subordinates to interact effectively. South Korea has suffered from this sort of thing before but over time the culture of subservience seems to be changing. Perhaps not fast enough to prevent this particular event but it seems to be gaining speed and momentum over time.


----------



## NEPATrainTraveler

I'm not afraid to fly, but I find going through security to be a hassle. I also prefer the scenery on the ground instead of the view you get from flying. I had originally planned to fly this October because I assumed a sleeper was required for an overnight Amtrak train, but then I found out through this forum that coach wasn't that bad so I re-booked the first leg of my trip as Amtrak. Might do the same for the trip back home.


----------



## JRR

Bob Dylan said:


> ehbowen:loved your First Flight with a Passenger story![emoji41]
> 
> Mine was in a Cessna 172 with my Wife and Daughter around the Hill Country,Canyon Lake followed by a Landing @ San Antonio International (SAT) for Dinner.
> 
> I made a Greaser of a Landing @ SAT and also upon returning home to San Marcos Loman Field.( now a Shopping Mall![emoji21]).
> 
> On the way to SAT I had to look out for T-38s zipping in/out of Randolph FAB and then Airline Traffic upon entering the San Antonio TCA.
> 
> Wonderful Memories are made from things like this!( My daughter is now 50 and she still talks about it!)


My first flight after getting my ticket was also memorable. A friend was with me when the tower at Lunken Airport in Cincinnati (affectionately known as “Sunken Lunken”), gave me a “clear for immediate take off” as I was holding just off the runway. I gave full throttle started to turn onto the runway and looked to my right and saw a green airplane right over the levee at the end of the runway! I immediately jammed both pedals down and cut the power and stood us on the nose wheel as the other plane roared past on the runway.

As I gathered myself together, the tower calmly advised me to “disregard 70 Zulu.”

I will say that I had a few choice words for the tower.

Clearly my training that the pilot is always in control and responsible, and that one always looks to assure that the way is clear before entering a runway, were reinforced by this experience!

Surprisingly, my friend still was willing to go up with me for a flight which from that point forward was pleasant!


----------



## XHRTSP

Devil's Advocate said:


> Although, to the best of my understanding the rougher the landing the more likely it was handled by an auto-land algorithm. Apparently auto-land focuses on firm planting for safety rather than soft landing for comfort.


A few months back I was on a double crew with a check airman and his student. One our first leg, IST-KWI, the student had a hard landing. And when us pilots say 'hard landing', we mean it was hard enough that the ride along mechanic has to inspect the aircraft to make sure nothing cracked or fell off.

On our second leg, KWI-DWC, another very firm landing. At this point the mechanic and loadmaster are getting visibly annoyed at having to suffer through these controlled crashes.

So here comes the third leg, DWC-IST. We're coming in and I'm in the back since as a relief captain I did most of the enroute flying, and I look over and the mechanic and load are holding on for dear life. Well it was a perfect smooth touchdown. 'Finally' the load yells.

I didn't want to but had to inform them it was the autoland. It is a requirement to do at least one during training.


----------



## AutoTrDvr

FrensicPic said:


> I'm not afraid of flying, I find it undesirable.
> 
> Perhaps question one should be re-worded/split.


Agreed. It's more the "lousier" service one gets these days, and the added costs of things that were once free, than anything else. They make me more "irritated" than "fearful." And "fear" could be contextually different. The only thing I might actually "fear" is:

1) The safety of the aircraft (i.e. is it properly maintained and airworthy and is the flight crew properly trained, well slept and sober, etc.); and -

2) The 'security" of the flight in re: Hijacking, terrorism, etc.

But, again, these are not necessarily "show stoppers." I simply might choose not to travel if I don't really have to, but I will if I must. And, again, the above doesn't just apply to air travel, but all public transportation.


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ehbowen:loved your First Flight with a Passenger story![emoji41]
> 
> Mine was in a Cessna 172 with my Wife and Daughter around the Hill Country,Canyon Lake followed by a Landing @ San Antonio International (SAT) for Dinner.
> 
> I made a Greaser of a Landing @ SAT and also upon returning home to San Marcos Loman Field.( now a Shopping Mall![emoji21]).
> 
> On the way to SAT I had to look out for T-38s zipping in/out of Randolph FAB and then Airline Traffic upon entering the San Antonio TCA.
> 
> Wonderful Memories are made from things like this!( My daughter is now 50 and she still talks about it!)
> 
> 
> 
> My first flight after getting my ticket was also memorable. A friend was with me when the tower at Lunken Airport in Cincinnati (affectionately known as “Sunken Lunken”), gave me a “clear for immediate take off” as I was holding just off the runway. I gave full throttle started to turn onto the runway and looked to my right and saw a green airplane right over the levee at the end of the runway! I immediately jammed both pedals down and cut the power and stood us on the nose wheel as the other plane roared past on the runway.
> 
> As I gathered myself together, the tower calmly advised me to “disregard 70 Zulu.”
> 
> I will say that I had a few choice words for the tower.
> 
> Clearly my training that the pilot is always in control and responsible, and that one always looks to assure that the way is clear before entering a runway, were reinforced by this experience!
> 
> Surprisingly, my friend still was willing to go up with me for a flight which from that point forward was pleasant!
Click to expand...

Yikes! How do you think they managed to screw that one up so badly?


----------



## Bob Dylan

You'd be surprised how many times @ busy contolled airports that this happens.

Sometimes the Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing @ ATC!


----------



## ehbowen

William P. Hobby airport (HOU), where I learned to fly, is especially problematic in this regard. It was laid out in the 1930s; the four runways ALL cross at least two others, and the volume of traffic (it qualifies as a Class B Primary Airport on its own, although IAH across town is bigger and busier) is such that at times all four of them will be in service at the same time!

Prevailing winds in Houston are most frequently from the southeast, off the Gulf. When that is the case the tower will use the two parallels (13L & 13R) for arrivals and will use the 6000' runway 17 as supplemental space for jet departures for those aircraft whose performance makes it viable. However, the parallels are really too close for good separation...on my first night flight as a student landing on 12L a Southwest 737 on final for 12R got real nervous about us; "I don't see that Decathlon!" We had him, safely off to our right rear, but I can well believe that it's hard to pick out a single nav light and strobe in all that urban ground clutter.

When things really get busy and all four runways are in use, it's Katy Bar The Door. Fortunately we had some very good controllers...I spent quite a bit of time visiting the tower when I was a student and things were a lot looser from the security standpoint...but there are limits to what you can expect from even the best of them.


----------



## JRR

cpotisch said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ehbowen:loved your First Flight with a Passenger story![emoji41]
> 
> Mine was in a Cessna 172 with my Wife and Daughter around the Hill Country,Canyon Lake followed by a Landing @ San Antonio International (SAT) for Dinner.
> 
> I made a Greaser of a Landing @ SAT and also upon returning home to San Marcos Loman Field.( now a Shopping Mall![emoji21]).
> 
> On the way to SAT I had to look out for T-38s zipping in/out of Randolph FAB and then Airline Traffic upon entering the San Antonio TCA.
> 
> Wonderful Memories are made from things like this!( My daughter is now 50 and she still talks about it!)
> 
> 
> 
> My first flight after getting my ticket was also memorable. A friend was with me when the tower at Lunken Airport in Cincinnati (affectionately known as “Sunken Lunken”), gave me a “clear for immediate take off” as I was holding just off the runway. I gave full throttle started to turn onto the runway and looked to my right and saw a green airplane right over the levee at the end of the runway! I immediately jammed both pedals down and cut the power and stood us on the nose wheel as the other plane roared past on the runway.
> As I gathered myself together, the tower calmly advised me to “disregard 70 Zulu.”
> 
> I will say that I had a few choice words for the tower.
> 
> Clearly my training that the pilot is always in control and responsible, and that one always looks to assure that the way is clear before entering a runway, were reinforced by this experience!
> 
> Surprisingly, my friend still was willing to go up with me for a flight which from that point forward was pleasant!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yikes! How do you think they managed to screw that one up so badly?
Click to expand...

I believe the tower lost the green plane as it crossed the levy and forgot that it hadn’t landed yet.

The “clear for immediate takeoff” clearly referred to another plane on a final approach which was farther out, which also landed before I received another “clear for takeoff!


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## RichieRich

I shared a house in Ft. Lauderdale and commuted (JetBlue & Spirit) once-a-week to my job in DC. Did that for 2 years. Kept my "Florida" car permanently parked at FLL. Skied all over Europe. NOW...wouldn't catch me on a plane - lines, security, crowds, cramped seats... I still go to Orlando 8-times-a-year...but on the A/T. Haven't been to an airport in over 10 years and don't plan to start! LOL


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## Pere Flyer

Twenty-something here—member of Amtrak: The Next Generation and conscientious objector to car ownership. I go to school 1,000 miles away from home, and the nature of my work requires traveling to gigs and training programs at population centers around the country. Time being money, and all that, usually non-airborne modes are out of the question. I’m not afraid of flying, but I’m tired of flying. That’s why I travel Amtrak, commuter rail, or bus whenever I can—usually for short corridor trips or on vacation time. Hope to live nearer my folks than at present so I can take the rails more cheaply and more often, but also near an airport hub so I can fly direct when ordered.


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