# SoCal HSR News



## WhoozOn1st

With construction commencement possibly two years out there is increased scrutiny of routing proposals for the Anaheim-Los Angeles segment of the line.

Bullet Train Plan Under Fire

"Among other things, [LACMTA chief Art] Leahy questioned designing the system to run trains every five minutes. 'That's extraordinary,' he said. And widening the corridor to add dedicated bullet train tracks could require taking out hundreds of homes in Anaheim alone, he noted. 'I mean, just crazy stuff,' he said, according to a recording of the session obtained by The Times."

"It 'isn't practical,' to start with that segment said Michael McGinley, who previously headed Metrolink's engineering department and has worked on the local high-speed rail project as a consultant. 'The first $4 billion should not be spent on that little spur. It overlaps and competes with an existing service.'"

Existing service is Metrolink commuter trains and Amtrak Pacific Surfliners.

It's only journalistic shorthand, but I grow weary of the term "bullet train." Maybe that's just cuz I've been hearing it since 1964, when it was applied to the Shinkansen HSR in Japan.

HSR tops the agenda for the April 17 NARP/RailPAC meeting at L.A. No Joe Boardman or Beech Grove this year, but last year's meeting was so interesting overall that I'm going again.

NARP/RailPAC Spring Membership Meeting Draft Program

EDIT: The Michael McGinley quoted in the Times article is scheduled to address NARP/RailPAC.


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## Rumpled

Five minute frequency seems pretty outlandish to me. I'd say start with hourly.

I think there is some merit in not making ANA-LAX truly high speed first.

This section beats car traffic most of the time.

SF-LAX is what needs to be done first.


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## jis

Rumpled said:


> Five minute frequency seems pretty outlandish to me. I'd say start with hourly.
> I think there is some merit in not making ANA-LAX truly high speed first.
> 
> This section beats car traffic most of the time.
> 
> SF-LAX is what needs to be done first.


If this was a highway project or a project in Asia, they'd simply build an elevated pair of high speed lines (or lanes) right atop the existing railroad ROW and be done with it. But since this is the US of A, we will first spend 6 years arguing about what should be built or not. Then if some money remains something half assed will get built, which will be neither fish nor fowl. Sigh....


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## leemell

Rumpled said:


> Five minute frequency seems pretty outlandish to me. I'd say start with hourly.
> I think there is some merit in not making ANA-LAX truly high speed first.
> 
> This section beats car traffic most of the time.
> 
> SF-LAX is what needs to be done first.


The bond issue requires planning for this as a hedge against future capacity bottlenecks.


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## Guest

A few comments from an insider that needs to remain anonymous:

1. "Taking out hundreds of homes" is completely bogus. There are probably not 100 homes in total near the line. Housing takes will approach zero.

2. The "five minute train frequency" is a design standard for operating capacity, not the proposed train frequency. That will be less and will be based on actual demand.

3. Michael McGinley is not an unbiased commentator. The decision to put this segment first is both funding and politic related.


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## rrdude

Heard this on NPR this AM, it'd be nice if the Chinese invested some more in Cali, get some of our money "back".

Listen HERE.


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## stntylr

I'm worried the California legislature might require the whole thing to be solar powered.


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## battalion51

Well depending on how technical you want to get, coal is very loose solar power. The plants and other things that have been compacted over thousands of years had to use solar energy to become coal. Anyone with me? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?


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## WhoozOn1st

Tough words on bullet-train plan

"[California State] Auditor Elaine Howle reported that the authority overseeing the rail system could very likely fall billions of dollars short of what it needs to complete the project, even though California voters approved borrowing billions of dollars to help pay for it."


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> Tough words on bullet-train plan
> "[California State] Auditor Elaine Howle reported that the authority overseeing the rail system could very likely fall billions of dollars short of what it needs to complete the project, even though California voters approved borrowing billions of dollars to help pay for it."


Read the report. http://www.bsa.ca.gov/reports/summary/2009-106

I have an opinion that I had better refrain from stating.


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## mfastx

The longer they wait to build, the more it's gonna cost.


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## Green Maned Lion

You know, when this country was founded, people actually do things. Now they sit around and talk about how they are going to do things.

Or... to quote Dave Barry roughly:

"President Madison started the policy for the U.S. to "get tough" when it came to world events. This was replaced in the 1970s with the U.S. policy of calling a press conference and threatening to "get tough"."


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## WhoozOn1st

Anybody wanna guess where the equipment will come from?

New chief chosen for high-speed rail project

"A senior private-sector executive with extensive international rail construction experience was named Thursday to lead California's $43-billion high-speed rail project from the drawing board toward the start of construction.

"Roelof van Ark, 58, president of Alstom Transportation Inc., a subsidiary of a French-based conglomerate, was unanimously approved as the new chief executive of the California High-Speed Rail Authority at an agency board meeting in Sacramento."


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## Green Maned Lion

Unquestionably, Talgo. I mean clearly they wouldn't chose Alstom... would they?


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## WhoozOn1st

High speed hi-jinks from the governator. He wants an HSR demonstration - by November - on the L.A.-San Diego corridor. Piece O' cake!

Fast track for high-speed rail is sought

"Skeptics of the idea say the project might not demonstrate high-speed rail's capabilities and is too ambitious to do in five months, especially if extensive improvements turn out to be needed to accommodate the train.

"'This will not be high-speed rail,' said Jim Mills, a former state senator who helped create commuter rail service between San Diego and Los Angeles. 'The difference in the running time compared to conventional equipment might only be a few minutes. And, if one of these lighter European designs derails or hits a gravel truck on the tracks, it will be a catastrophe.'

"Others pointedly questioned the governor's motivation beyond his long-time support for high-speed rail.

"'What hit me first about this was the desperation of having a ribbon-cutting shortly before the governor leaves,' said Rich Tolmach of the California Rail Foundation. 'They've realized there's no legacy for the governor.'"


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## Guest

Is this a chance to announce that "I'm Back!!!" as he returns to the movies since he has no future in politics! Maybe he can make a train movie!


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## Guest

WhoozOn1st said:


> High speed hi-jinks from the governator. He wants an HSR demonstration - by November - on the L.A.-San Diego corridor. Piece O' cake!
> ["'This will not be high-speed rail,' said Jim Mills, a former state senator who helped create commuter rail service between San Diego and Los Angeles. 'The difference in the running time compared to conventional equipment might only be a few minutes. And, if one of these lighter European designs derails or hits a gravel truck on the tracks, it will be a catastrophe.'


Surely no one could be this stupid.

OK, he is a politician, so it is possible, with apologies to Jim Mills who is absolutely correct. There are quite a few other things that make this essentially impossible.

1. No way will the FRA allow this to happen. No high speed trainset in the world meets the US crashworthiness requirements for operating on a track with road crossings, even assuming that the freight trains will all be stopped when this thing is operating. If they continue to run, that also is a NO NO per FRA.

2. All, so far as I know, high speed trainsets run off electricity. The overhead wire to carry such is absent from the San Diego line.

3. Track class will not permit anything plus 110, maybe even plus 90.

4. To many curves to get any reasonable improvement in run time.

There are certainly more, but numbers 1 and 2 will make certain that this run will not happen.


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## WhoozOn1st

Just plain nuts...

Bill to compel firms to admit Holocaust role advances

"Essentially targeting a French rail operator, a key state Senate committee Tuesday advanced legislation that would require companies interested in working on the California high-speed train project to admit whether they transported people to concentration camps during World War II."


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## rrdude

Yup, that kinda takes the cake.


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## Bob Dylan

WOW! I agree, this is PC run amok! :wacko: And it proves that not only rightwing nuts are mobbing up for witch hunts! Hope the Terminator terminates this one if it reaches his desk!(Dont know if the rich witch or Gov. Moonbeam would sign this one, kill it while you can (so to speak!) :help:


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## Ozark Southern

WhoozOn1st said:


> Just plain nuts...
> 
> Bill to compel firms to admit Holocaust role advances
> 
> "Essentially targeting a French rail operator, a key state Senate committee Tuesday advanced legislation that would require companies interested in working on the California high-speed train project to admit whether they transported people to concentration camps during World War II."


Just wow. I can't imagine what good that would do. Seriously, anyone who was working for that company is at least retired now, if not deceased. One would think sixty-five years would be enough time to forgive and forget.


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## Devil's Advocate

No biggie. Just freely admit you transported Jews to their death. Your admission will be met with general apathy. Then when another refinery explosion or mine collapse or oil rig disaster happens a few days later the media will be rushing off to cover the next preventable tragedy with kid gloves and forget all about whatever the last thing was. Bad news has become no news in this era.


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## PetalumaLoco

"There were two important high speed rail reports released this week in California. One of them, by CALPIRG, showed how HSR is a clear success around the world, having no trouble meeting its ridership goals and improving transportation. The other, by the Berkeley Institute for Transportation Studies, questioned some of the assumptions of the HSR ridership study.

Guess which one got covered breathlessly by the media - and guess which one was ignored."

Complete article from Calitics, How the media gets HSR wrong.


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## Guest

Unfortunately, a lot of the anti-HSR are working hard to make their beliefs into a self fulfilling prophecy. They are doing all they can to slow things down, putting on political pressure to go slower in some areas insisting on going around rather than going through, over, or under things of all kinds from single buildings all the way up to towns. Then there are those that dream up wildly improbbably scenarios to justify putting in airport type "security".

How about looking at the most recent new start up, which I think is Taiwan. Before, there were flights about every 15 minutes between the end point cities, plus several a day to the main mid point city. Now it is down to either a couple a day or a couple a week.(I have heard both) As an additional bonus, there are some cities that get quick service that had no air service at all, which has reduced driving. There are now more longer distance flights out of the south end airport as it is no longer congested with short hop flights.


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## WhoozOn1st

Ozark Southern said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just plain nuts...
> 
> Bill to compel firms to admit Holocaust role advances
> 
> "Essentially targeting a French rail operator, a key state Senate committee Tuesday advanced legislation that would require companies interested in working on the California high-speed train project to admit whether they transported people to concentration camps during World War II."
> 
> 
> 
> Just wow. I can't imagine what good that would do. Seriously, anyone who was working for that company is at least retired now, if not deceased. One would think sixty-five years would be enough time to forgive and forget.
Click to expand...

I don't think forgiving and forgetting are in order where genocide is concerned, but it's pretty absurd to attempt to hold people or companies accountable for policies and actions taken by earlier generations. It's like holding a grudge against the modern South for slavery and the Civil War. Oh wait, I actually do that.


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## WhoozOn1st

PetalumaLoco said:


> "There were two important high speed rail reports released this week in California. One of them, by CALPIRG, showed how HSR is a clear success around the world, having no trouble meeting its ridership goals and improving transportation. The other, by the Berkeley Institute for Transportation Studies, questioned some of the assumptions of the HSR ridership study.
> Guess which one got covered breathlessly by the media - and guess which one was ignored."
> 
> Complete article from Calitics, How the media gets HSR wrong.


Officials defend high-speed rail project

"The state panel charged with building California's 800-mile bullet train network pushed back Thursday against an academic analysis challenging the reliability of ridership and revenue estimates underpinning the massive project."


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> It's like holding a grudge against the modern South for slavery and the Civil War. Oh wait, I actually do that.


How about holding a grudge against what the damnyankees did to the South during and after the War Between the States? That makes a lot more sense. The basic motto of most of the yankee troops, particularly those under Sherman seemed to be pillage, rape and burn, and after the war steal whatever was left. Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.


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## jis

George Harris said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's like holding a grudge against the modern South for slavery and the Civil War. Oh wait, I actually do that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about holding a grudge against what the damnyankees did to the South during and after the War Between the States? That makes a lot more sense. The basic motto of most of the yankee troops, particularly those under Sherman seemed to be pillage, rape and burn, and after the war steal whatever was left. Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.
Click to expand...

Learning history from all angles is good. But I still think that holding either of those grudges against presumed descendants of the original perpetrators is silly at best and quite pointlessly provocative at worst, unless of course said descendants are behaving in the same abhorrent way. In which case they should be dealt with based on their current actions, and it would not really matter if they descended from saints or tyrants.


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## WhoozOn1st

George Harris said:


> Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.


"Real" history, in the Confederate telling, usually amounts to little more than Southern revisionism and hagiolatry of losing generals. Relying on the blinkered version as sole source, one might be hard pressed to learn that the Union actually prevailed over treason, insurrection, and the vile use of "states rights" doctrine (think Arizona) as a tool to preserve slavery. That's the real history, not propaganda by victor or vanquished.

And now back to high speed rail!


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.
> 
> 
> 
> "Real" history, in the Confederate telling, usually amounts to little more than Southern revisionism and hagiolatry of losing generals. Relying on the blinkered version as sole source, one might be hard pressed to learn that the Union actually prevailed over treason, insurrection, and the vile use of "states rights" doctrine (think Arizona) as a tool to preserve slavery. That's the real history, not propaganda by victor or vanquished.
> 
> And now back to high speed rail!
Click to expand...

Whooz: I have thought about how to make a reasoned response to your flame, and decided it was not worth bothering. Suffice to say you are welcome to have a right to your opinion regardless of how insulting or poorly suppported by reality, and the same right to free speech was also in the Constitution of the Confederate States of America.


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## KayBee

George Harris said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.
> 
> 
> 
> "Real" history, in the Confederate telling, usually amounts to little more than Southern revisionism and hagiolatry of losing generals. Relying on the blinkered version as sole source, one might be hard pressed to learn that the Union actually prevailed over treason, insurrection, and the vile use of "states rights" doctrine (think Arizona) as a tool to preserve slavery. That's the real history, not propaganda by victor or vanquished.
> 
> And now back to high speed rail!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whooz: I have thought about how to make a reasoned response to your flame, and decided it was not worth bothering. Suffice to say you are welcome to have a right to your opinion regardless of how insulting or poorly suppported by reality, and the same right to free speech was also in the Constitution of the Confederate States of America.
Click to expand...

Well said, George!

Never forget that the histories are always written by the victors.

You wouldn't suppose there was any "Northern Revisionism" going on at any time, would you?

Just sayin' <_<


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## Spokker

George Harris said:


> The basic motto of most of the yankee troops, particularly those under Sherman seemed to be pillage, rape and burn, and after the war steal whatever was left. Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.


Ugh, I know. The North was so inhumane that it lacked any respect for basic human rights.


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## WhoozOn1st

Ah, politics...

Inquiry into state rail board sought

"Critics of California's high-speed rail project Tuesday urged the state attorney general to investigate whether two prominent officials in Los Angeles County and Anaheim have conflicts of interest because they sit on the bullet train's board while holding other public offices.

"A Palo Alto group known as Californians Advocating Responsible Rail Design asserts that Anaheim Mayor Curt Pringle and Richard Katz, a board member for the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, might be violating a state law that forbids public officials from simultaneously sitting on a board, commission or other government body whose interests are likely to clash with their public duties.

"The group cited an opinion from the Legislature's legal office, which concluded in April that a court would probably rule that Katz and Pringle hold incompatible offices — a finding that could force them to resign one or more of their positions.

"Anaheim City Council members and the MTA board make decisions related to segments of the high-speed rail project planned for Los Angeles and Orange counties. A leg of the system would end in Anaheim."

The story also notes that a proposal to waste - I mean utilize - $200 million of HSR funds on an Anaheim Transportation Center next to Angel Stadium has been dropped. Among more practical reasons I consider this good news, as based on the renderings I thought the thing woulda been an architechtural and aesthetic abomination:





EDIT: Looks like the business end of a giant golf club lying on the ground!
​


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## WhoozOn1st

Same gripe as yesterday, from a different direction. Perhaps future generations will be able to read about actual groundbreaking and construction progress.

Conflicts alleged on high speed panel

"Tony Bushala, a Fullerton businessman, and Denis Fitzgerald, a mayoral candidate in Anaheim, are seeking an investigation of Anaheim Mayor Curt Pringle, the chairman of the California High Speed Rail Authority board, and Richard Katz, a Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority board member."


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## jimhudson

It's the latest thing in Politics, the outs will "Investigate" the crooks, er statesmen in power soon as they take over!  Been big ever since the 50s when the witch hunts for "Communists" went on by Tailgunner Joe and Tricky Dick! Coming soon to a Government near you! :help:


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## WhoozOn1st

jimhudson said:


> It's the latest thing in Politics, the outs will "Investigate" the crooks, er statesmen in power soon as they take over! Been big ever since the 50s when the witch hunts for "Communists" went on by Tailgunner Joe and Tricky Dick!


Joe McCarthy and Richard Nixon were the "ins" when they used red baiting and the politics of fear as career advancement tools. EDIT: Nixon did use such tactics to get elected in the first place.


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## Guest

WhoozOn1st said:


> "Critics of California's high-speed rail project Tuesday urged the state attorney general to investigate whether two prominent officials in Los Angeles County and Anaheim have conflicts of interest because they sit on the bullet train's board while holding other public offices.
> "A Palo Alto group known as Californians Advocating Responsible Rail Design asserts that Anaheim Mayor Curt Pringle and Richard Katz, a board member for the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, might be violating a state law that forbids public officials from simultaneously sitting on a board, commission or other government body whose interests are likely to clash with their public duties.


What we have here is a group that is viciously opposed to the high speed rail taking action against some people that are trying to make it happen. Why would we not smell the scent of dead rat here?

This Palo Alto group, and others like it along the Penninsula are doing every thing possible to stop the HSR, and if not discredit it or delay it, and if failing that, so constrain the alignment revisions necessary to increase speed that the segment north of San Jose is not really a high speed line at all, resulting in the entire line failing to achieve the legislature required run time.

The shortsighted dog-in-the-manger selfishness and arrogance of this little group or not so little groups of wealthy dilattanes to attempt to frustrate the real transportation needs of the rest of the states, and the reduction per person moved in energy consumption that a functional rail system will achieve is simply beyond both belief and tolerance.


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## WhoozOn1st

More heat, little light, in the ongoing ruckus over conflict of interest issues at the California High-Speed Rail Authority:

Sparks fly in rail plan e-mail

"The public and legal debate over possible clashing responsibilities involving [Cal HSR board members and multiple officeholders Curt Pringle and Richard Katz] has simmered for months. The attorney general, at the request of a state Senate committee, is examining whether decisions on rights of way usage, station development, final routes or other issues could present impermissible conflicts for the two authority board members."


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## Devil's Advocate

Spokker said:


> Ugh, I know. The North was so inhumane that it lacked any respect for basic human rights.


They should have followed the humanitarian nature of the Southern states? :wacko:


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## Anderson

Look, while I'll say that I wish stations were a bit nicer than the "Amshacks" in some towns...that station you put the picture up is a wonderful waste of taxpayer dollars. Couldn't they build a functional, less showy station for...say, $100 million and put the other $100 million to good use (or if they're going to spend $200 million, at least use some taste with it)?


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## DET63

Spokker said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> The basic motto of most of the yankee troops, particularly those under Sherman seemed to be pillage, rape and burn, and after the war steal whatever was left. Learn the real history, not the victor's propoganda.
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh, I know. The North was so inhumane that it lacked any respect for basic human rights.
Click to expand...

Unless the HSR is going to be built with slave labor, I don't think we need to rehash the Civil War/War Between the States.


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## WhoozOn1st

California's High Speed Rail Authority board has approved construction of the first route segment, between Borden and Corcoran in the Central Valley. Naturally, a chorus of myopic naysayers has already dubbed this initial leg of a larger, complete system the "train to nowhere" (an allusion to the notorious Alaska bridge project).

Bullet train board OKs 1st segment

"Included in the plan are tracks, station platforms, bridges and viaducts, which would elevate the line through urban areas. The initial section, however, would not be equipped with maintenance facilities, locomotives, passenger cars or an electrical system necessary to power high-speed trains."

And...

"To satisfy federal requirements, the starter route must have 'independent utility.' That is, other passenger railroads must be able to use the track if funding dries up and high-speed trains never come to fruition. The rail authority says Amtrak's well-established San Joaquin service could shift from its conventional track to the high-speed route between Borden and Corcoran in such a case.

"Amtrak trains might be able to go faster on the line, but how much actual benefit the passengers on the San Joaquin service would realize hasn't been determined."


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## WhoozOn1st

The California High-Speed Rail Peer Review group, a 6-member panel said to be composed of transportation, financial, and HSR construction experts, has issued a 20-page assessment warning that major funding, planning, and staffing issues must be addressed for California's HSR plan to succeed.

Warning issued over high-speed rail

Among the findings:

-- The authority's small staff, which is struggling to manage dozens of engineering, management and public relations contractors, is "totally inadequate to oversee a project of this magnitude."

-- The "lack of a clear financial plan is a critical concern," and confusion about possible on-going taxpayer subsidies for the project must be resolved.

-- Fixes are essential to the reliability of ridership and operating revenue forecasts. Criticisms by experts at UC Berkeley and elsewhere "have raised sufficient concerns [about the model] so as to call into question the project's fundamental basis for going forward."

-- The authority must immediately focus on a business model for the project, including the extent to which public and/or private entities will design, build, finance and operate the system.


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## George Harris

Take this report with a large grain of salt. Controversy is the media's life blood.

You particularly gotta love Lowenthal's statements quoted at the end of the article.

While the main issue appears to be that the project is moving too slow, he states, "The project may need to be slowed down"

The even goofier one is that the authority has been in denial. There are people out there that are in dennial, but for the most part they are forming the opposition that denys the need for a major change in the handling of transportation issues in California (and elsewhere.)


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## WhoozOn1st

These three pieces - 2 news stories and an editorial - appeared in the L.A. Times this past week. The first concerns a formal civil rights complaint alleging that the California HSR authority has systematically excluded minority-owned businesses from project contracts. Without passing judgement on the merits, I think it fair to say that this is neither the first nor the last of peripheral issues to drain attention, time, money, and effort from the central goal.

Complaint lodged on rail project

"'This $43-billion undertaking appears to not be for all citizens of California, but for the middle-class and a small group of large established companies,' said Frederick Jordan, president of the San Francisco African American Chamber of Commerce. 'Minority-owned business and small business have been almost totally left out of the planning, engineering and construction of this project.'"

Next are a story and editorial about the redirection to California and other states of federal HSR funds spurned by Wisconsin and Ohio. The editorial borders on gloating.

Rail funds shifted to California

"Rail officials said the additional money could be used to extend the first segment of the line in the Central Valley to Merced or Bakersfield. Last week, the rail board approved construction of an initial 65 miles of track between Corcoran and Borden. The work is expected to begin in 2012."

Their loss, California's gain

"Scott Walker, Republican governor-elect of Wisconsin, fretted that his state's train would cost $7.5 million a year to operate. As train supporters pointed out to the New York Times, this is sort of like turning down a free car because you don't want to have to pay for gasoline and insurance. Not only did Walker and Ohio Gov.-elect John Kasich, also a Republican, ignore the construction jobs the projects would have created, but they ignored the positive impact on their states' economies, freeways and environment that the trains would have brought to future generations."


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> These three pieces - 2 news stories and an editorial - appeared in the L.A. Times this past week. The first concerns a formal civil rights complaint alleging that the California HSR authority has systematically excluded minority-owned businesses from project contracts. Without passing judgement on the merits, I think it fair to say that this is neither the first nor the last of peripheral issues to drain attention, time, money, and effort from the central goal.
> 
> Complaint lodged on rail project
> 
> "'This $43-billion undertaking appears to not be for all citizens of California, but for the middle-class and a small group of large established companies,' said Frederick Jordan, president of the San Francisco African American Chamber of Commerce. 'Minority-owned business and small business have been almost totally left out of the planning, engineering and construction of this project.'"


This sort of stuff is called attempting to get your name in the news and then later taking credit for what is happening anyway. There are extensive laws and rules, both Federal and in California, giving required percentages of participation for both minority owned and small businesses. You better believe that these are being followed and treated as minimums regardless of whether or not Mr. Jordan gets out there and stomps and screams or sits back and does nothing.


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## WhoozOn1st

California's HSR Authority has announced plans for a joint acquisition, with LACMTA, of Los Angeles Union Station and other land for a SoCal HSR hub, light rail regional connector, and other projects...

Rail board plans to buy Union Station

"The price tag for Union Station is confidential, but the bulk of the money is expected to come from the MTA. Negotiations with private equity firm TPG Capital, which is buying the property from Colorado-based ProLogis, are winding up. A deal could be concluded by late February, said Roger Moliere, MTA's chief of property management."


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## WhoozOn1st

No harm, no foul. While this is surely not the last of the distractions, at least it's one more outta the way as we continue to hope for shovels to start hitting California soil in 2012.

Rail board members cleared after probe into trips

"The [Los Angeles] Times reported in October that the rail agency was unable to document officials' trips to various countries, including France, Spain and Germany. The trips, which typically included visits with manufacturers, government officials and rail operators, as well as rides on high-speed systems, were paid for by foreign governments trying to help their homeland firms win large contracts.

"In November, the state's ethics watchdog agency notified board members Curt Pringle, Lynn Schenk, Quentin Kopp and Tom Umberg, as well the agency's former executive director, Mehdi Morshed, that it was investigating.

"The five received letters this week saying the inquiry 'determined there is no evidence that you committed a violation' of state law and that the cases were being closed."


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> "The [Los Angeles] Times reported in October that the rail agency was unable to document officials' trips to various countries, including France, Spain and Germany. The trips, which typically included visits with manufacturers, government officials and rail operators, as well as rides on high-speed systems, were paid for by foreign governments trying to help their homeland firms win large contracts.


This is classic. It is a near equivalent to the "Are you still beating your wife" question.

If the people go, they are accused of being influenced by whoever they visit. If they do not go, they are accused of being unwilling to learn from what has been done elsewhere that is needed to build a "world class" system.

(There are two phrases that cause me a near allergic reaction: "World Class" and "State of the art", and I almost forgot one more, "International Standard" or "International Best Practice" Generally when you hear these, it is usually from someone trying to convince you that this is what their standards are and that you should use their standards without analysis.)


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## George Harris

Anderson said:


> Look, while I'll say that I wish stations were a bit nicer than the "Amshacks" in some towns...that station you put the picture up is a wonderful waste of taxpayer dollars. Couldn't they build a functional, less showy station for...say, $100 million and put the other $100 million to good use (or if they're going to spend $200 million, at least use some taste with it)?


These things are called Architectual Renderings. They are exactly what they appear to be: A painting of a concept. The reality will undoubably look much different, particularly as financial realitites begin to set in. Way too many people want a beautiful monumental structure so long as someone else is writing teh check.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

We'll take it. ALL of it!!

Bullet train backers want rail funds that Florida shunned

"California bullet train supporters began angling Wednesday for a sizeable share of $2.4 billion in federal high-speed rail funding that Florida Gov. Rick Scott rejected."

"'The state is "in a great position to be … competitive for federal dollars,' said Jeffrey Barker, deputy executive director of the California High-Speed Rail Authority. California has the nation's only truly high-speed train project in advanced stages of planning, he added."

__________________

Any other Republican governors out there feeling ideologically bound to reject money and jobs for their states? Right this way...


----------



## WhoozOn1st

A SoCal state senator has introduced legislation to overhaul the leadership structure of the state's HSR agency, the California High-Speed Rail Authority, and also tie it more closely to state government.

"[sen. Alan Lowenthal (D-Long Beach)], a former chairman of the Senate's Transportation Committee, has criticized what he sees as a lack of accountability at the agency, which has been the subject of several critical audits in recent years. He expects to head a new Senate select committee focusing on the bullet train project that will be announced soon."

Bill targets high-speed rail operations

"Among other things, the legislation would require new appointments to the board, with members required to have a range of experience in such areas as construction law, financing, engineering, environmental policy and local government. The rail agency also would be brought under the umbrella of the governor's secretary of Business, Transportation and Housing."Prospects for passage were not clear, but Lowenthal said the measure is partly intended to engage legislative leaders and Gov. Jerry Brown in a reexamination of how the project should proceed.

"High-speed rail 'is the most complex transportation project ever undertaken by the state,' Lowenthal said. 'As a supporter, I believe the project would be better served if the board members had specific expertise.'"


----------



## WhoozOn1st

The L.A. Times calls this little confab "the first gathering of firms hoping to design, build or operate part of the network of trains slated to run up to 220 miles per hour between major cities in California," but in fact there was an earlier symposium, partly sponsored by the Japanese government and featuring Japanese companies, held in a downtown hotel in January (complete with sushi, wine, and brewski afterward!).

Bullet train officials hold forum for potential contractors

"With state officials committed to breaking ground next year on a $43-billion Los Angeles-to-San Francisco high-speed rail link, would-be bidders from Asia, Europe and across the United States are lining up to compete."

"California has done well in the administration's push to build high-speed rail, obtaining about $3.75 billion in federal grants. But the state still needs tens of billions of dollars in federal and private funding to finish even the 520-mile first phase of the system."


----------



## George Harris

The current concept for the San Jose station looks nothing like the archtectural rendering in the LA Times article. It is much, much smaller and is planned to be over the top of the existing San Jose railroad statin used by Caltrain and Amtrak. At this point, a quick look on amtraktrains site after doing a late night check on office emails, I am not going to attempt to hunt down a reasonably accurate likeness of the current scheme that has been presented to the public. Those interested, good luck and have fun.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

I'm no expert, or lawyer, or politico, but this seems like an attempt to (take your pick) a) hijack Cal HSR to suit local ends, b) piggyback Caltrain's electrification dreams on Cal HSR's budget, or c) some combination of a & b.

Peninsula lawmakers call for 'blended' approach to high-speed rail

"Through a combination of electrification, a new train control system and other improvements, the lawmakers say it's possible to create a '21st Century Caltrain' system that would send high-speed trains from San Jose to San Francisco. North of San Jose, bullet trains would use the same tracks as an upgraded Caltrain and pass commuter trains in the same way that Baby Bullets pass non-express trains.

"The lawmakers said they want the system to remain within the Caltrain right of way and would oppose running trains along elevated structures. They also said the rail authority should halt work on a study of the current project's environmental impacts, branding it a "fool's errand" in the face of local opposition and limited funding. The federal government last week eliminated all funding for high-speed rail projects."

BTW, there's that same graphic as in the L.A. Times, this time credited to the Cal HSR Authority, and again said to be a rendering of the proposed San Jose station.


----------



## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> I'm no expert, or lawyer, or politico, but this seems like an attempt to (take your pick) a) hijack Cal HSR to suit local ends, b) piggyback Caltrain's electrification dreams on Cal HSR's budget, or c) some combination of a & b.


Yes


----------



## Spokker

Caltrain and HSR should be an integrated system on the Peninsula. The service should be operated as such that any train can use any track and stop at any platform at any time.

There should be no barriers obstructing access from one system to the other. Transfers should be cross-platform and as seamless as possible. Stations should be designed to focus on the pedestrian experience. Train stations on the Peninsula should adhere to this principle at all times, the pedestrian is king.

I don't know if Eshoo and Simitian care about all that, but their integrated solution moves the project in the right direction.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

We've heard from this guy before, a persistent critic of rail of any kind, and a cheerleader for increased burning of fossil fuels. This time he takes aim at California's HSR plans...

High-speed rail hopes are off the tracks

After trotting out a few numbers attributed to the current administration, there's this:

"This is only a tiny fraction of the resources that would be required to make high-speed rail a viable intercity transportation option. Even if we were prepared to further bankrupt ourselves doing so, we would accomplish nothing that cannot be accomplished much more cheaply by expanding airports, better maintaining and managing roads, and using conventional technology to burn gasoline and jet fuel even more cleanly.

"The market for U.S air travel has been aggressively deregulated, and airfares are relatively low. As a result, U.S. airlines capture a large share of the market for short intercity trips. Even with recent increases in the price of oil, retail gasoline prices in the U.S. are about half the pump price in Europe, and the differential is even greater relative to places such as China and India. Consequently, a large share of the U.S. market for medium and long trips is accounted for by automobile travel. There is not enough room for high-speed rail to compete."

________________________

Oh, and for the 3rd time in about a week the exact same rendering is said to be the San Jose HSR station, for the second time attributed to the Cal HSR Authority.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

WhoozOn1st said:


> "The lawmakers said they want the system to remain within the Caltrain right of way and would oppose running trains along elevated structures. They also said the rail authority should halt work on a study of the current project's environmental impacts, branding it a "fool's errand" in the face of local opposition and limited funding. The federal government last week eliminated all funding for high-speed rail projects."


I hate to say it, but that's not such an unreasonable interpretation given how much of a pummeling HSR has taken from recently elected politicians. If CA has lost all funding for HSR from the federal government how can they possibly hope to pay for all $50 billion plus they expect this system to cost?


----------



## afigg

daxomni said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The lawmakers said they want the system to remain within the Caltrain right of way and would oppose running trains along elevated structures. They also said the rail authority should halt work on a study of the current project's environmental impacts, branding it a "fool's errand" in the face of local opposition and limited funding. The federal government last week eliminated all funding for high-speed rail projects."
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to say it, but that's not such an unreasonable interpretation given how much of a pummeling HSR has taken from recently elected politicians. If CA has lost all funding for HSR from the federal government how can they possibly hope to pay for all $50 billion plus they expect this system to cost?
Click to expand...

CA did not lose funding that has already been granted for the HSR project. The quote mis-represents what happened in the FY2011 budget outcome. The $1 billion that the Obama administration had requested for FY11 for HSIPR was deleted as was the $2.5 billion in the appropriations bill that passed the House last fall, so there is zero funding for FY11. $400 million of the FY2010 HSIPR funding returned by Gov. Scott in Florida was rescinded. However, that leaves $8 billion of the stimulus funding and $2.1 billion from the FY10 appropriations intact and to be to put to work over the next 6 years. CA HSR still has around $3.6 billion of federal funding to use. $2.03 billion of the Florida HSR funds are to be re-allocated by the FRA and Secretary LaHood and CA HSR is likely to get a fair sized piece of that money. The CHSRA applied for more than $2.43 billion for the Florida funds before the $400 million of it was rescinded, have to give them points for that.

As for the Caltrain San Jose-SF corridor, I think it is better to do it right the first time around rather than to seriously hinder the HSR system from the outset. Build the 4 track grade separated corridor and be done with it. It is a 4 track rail line, not a limited access 4 lane highway which takes up a much wider ROW.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

After years of preferring an eastern alignment through the Antelope Valley and over the Tehachapi mountains, Cal's HSR Authority is taking another look at a route over the Grapevine, close to I-5, according to this KBAK/KBFX story:

Grapevine route now favored for high-speed rail

"The route along Highway 58 and south to the Antelope Valley was thought to have less tunneling, which would make for easier construction and lower costs. That alignment was also considered to have less seismic activity and fewer environmental impacts, and allow a station in fast-growing Palmdale.

"But as studies got more detailed and specific, a different picture emerged.

"'After further study, the (Hwy. 58) alignment alternatives require substantially greater tunnel lengths at higher cost than any envisioned...' reads the HSR report.... The report goes on to say the 58 alignments also have more environmental and residential impacts than first thought.

"Newly discovered advantages to the Grapevine route are also outlined. The report says that alignment could be 25 miles shorter, saving seven to nine minutes of bullet train travel time. It further says the Grapevine route, 'may result in a significant cost saving ($ Billions) over an alignment via Palmdale.'"

KBAK/KBFX news video


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Here's a real news story - not a TV treatment - about the decision to revisit the Cal HSR route option of going over the Grapevine following I-5, instead of through the Antelope Valley and over the Tehachapis...

Rail planners revive Grapevine route

"Following the I-5 also sidesteps newly recognized earthquake risks along the Antelope Valley route, and dodges rising opposition from homeowners who have moved to new developments along the path paralleling California 14 to Palmdale. A Times analysis shows that the population near the highway has grown 24% in the last decade."

"But, as bullet train promoters are painfully aware, curing one headache often creates another. Developers planning a major mountain community at Tejon Ranch, along the I-5, warned the board Thursday that a Grapevine option could disrupt their project and cost the agency dearly for right of way."







Excerpt from a comment on the article: "'NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY,' NIMBYbert McNIMBY was quoted as saying at a townhall meeting in NIMBYville."

HAHAHA!!


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Today we have a couple letters to the editor of the L.A. Times regarding the above story, "Rail planners revive Grapevine route." They're copy/pasted to avoid slogging through the other 8 letters published on this date, with authors' names omitted.

Letter 1:

"So the California High-Speed Rail Authority voted to review the Grapevine route again. Good. The train should go along the Interstate 5 freeway instead of through the Antelope Valley.

"Palmdale already has Metrolink service that takes commuters to downtown Los Angeles. It would make no sense for a high-speed rail line to detour through these communities. It's a high-speed line, not a Metrolink train that stops in all communities. Just go along the 5."

--Los Angeles

Letter 2:

"Your article about the renewed feud on the routing of the high-speed train offers yet another harbinger of the disaster this exercise in pork will prove to be for Californians and their wallets.

"Already assessed as 'one of the nation's costliest transportation projects,' such squabbling between political camps will simply exacerbate this fiasco of a project, which will break all boundaries of mismanagement and cost overruns. Pray to the heavens that Congress will withhold all federal grant funds in the name of deficit reduction and that this unnecessary boondoggle dies a quick and merciful death."

--Long Beach


----------



## WhoozOn1st

As noted elsewhere around here, the U.S. Dept. of Transportation has announced reallocation of the HSR funding spurned by Florida's Republican governor. Via NARP e-mail, California will receive...

 

"$300 million more for the nation's first 220-mph high-speed rail system, extending the already-funded 110-mile segment an additional 20 miles 'to advance completion of the Central Valley project, the backbone of the [planned] Los Angeles to San Francisco corridor.'"


----------



## WhoozOn1st

L.A. Times take on the HSR reallocation grants announced 5-9-11:

California to get more rail money

"'This is great news for Californians, who have already made strong financial commitments to infrastructure projects, [California Senator Dianne] Feinstein said. I applaud Secretary LaHood for responding to our request and allowing the state of California to utilize these funds to advance high-speed rail. No other state is as ready and able to lead the way in demonstrating the viability of high-speed rail. In addition, these funds will support thousands of new manufacturing, construction, and technology jobs in California.'"

On the corridor front, and under discussion elsewhere in these forums...

"A separate grant of $68 million will be used for 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and four quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol corridors in California, the DOT stated."


----------



## jis

WhoozOn1st said:


> "A separate grant of $68 million will be used for 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and four quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol corridors in California, the DOT stated."


That is indirectly good news for the NEC since we might get some of those displaced Amfleets shipped back east to augment corridor Regional train capacity.


----------



## gswager

jis said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> "A separate grant of $68 million will be used for 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and four quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol corridors in California, the DOT stated."
> 
> 
> 
> That is indirectly good news for the NEC since we might get some of those displaced Amfleets shipped back east to augment corridor Regional train capacity.
Click to expand...

Can you wait 3 to 5 years before the Amfleets will be back to the east? It takes time to build new ones and running test.


----------



## jis

gswager said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> "A separate grant of $68 million will be used for 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and four quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol corridors in California, the DOT stated."
> 
> 
> 
> That is indirectly good news for the NEC since we might get some of those displaced Amfleets shipped back east to augment corridor Regional train capacity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you wait 3 to 5 years before the Amfleets will be back to the east? It takes time to build new ones and running test.
Click to expand...

They still have another 10 or so sitting around in Wilmington/Bear awaiting funding or some such to get refurbished and sent out on the road too. Besides if push comes to shove I am sure we could convince NJT to part with their entire low level fleet  They will unfortunately require new seats.  But since Amtrak is now willing to fund equipment acquisition based on financing based on expected income, at least for the Northeast Corridor, there still is hope.

Also the two additional cars per set that is being ordered for the Acelas financed by expected income, will help too.


----------



## leemell

WhoozOn1st said:


> L.A. Times take on the HSR reallocation grants announced 5-9-11:
> 
> California to get more rail money
> 
> "'This is great news for Californians, who have already made strong financial commitments to infrastructure projects, [California Senator Dianne] Feinstein said. I applaud Secretary LaHood for responding to our request and allowing the state of California to utilize these funds to advance high-speed rail. No other state is as ready and able to lead the way in demonstrating the viability of high-speed rail. In addition, these funds will support thousands of new manufacturing, construction, and technology jobs in California.'"
> 
> On the corridor front, and under discussion elsewhere in these forums...
> 
> "A separate grant of $68 million will be used for 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and four quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol corridors in California, the DOT stated."



And what, exactly are "high-performance passenger rail cars and ,,, quick-acceleration locomotives"?


----------



## afigg

leemell said:


> And what, exactly are "high-performance passenger rail cars and ,,, quick-acceleration locomotives"?


The single level and bi-level passenger cars are to be capable of operating at 125 mph. The diesel locomotives are also to be 125 mph capable, which implies increased horsepower so the locos are probably specified to have increased acceleration capability. Although in practice, saving on fuel consumption is likely to trump going for rapid acceleration. These are all part of the Next Generation equipment specifications which can be found at http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Pages/DocsSpecs.aspx if you want to read them.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

A report by the state Legislative Analyst's Office calls for big changes in the way California's HSR effort is being managed. Among other things it recommends that decision-making be turned over to the state Dept. of Transportation (Caltrans), and the California Transportation Commission.

Changes Urged For Rail Project

"The high-speed rail authority now operates with only a policy-setting board and a small bureaucracy to manage dozens of engineering, management and public relations contractors. Even the authority's own internal oversight panel has called the staff too small to handle such a large undertaking."

Also...

"The analyst's report concluded that deadlines and requirements for spending federal funds need to be renegotiated and changed to provide legislators more time and greater flexibility to make the multibillion-dollar decisions they could soon face.

"The researchers recommended negotiating with the federal government to modify a fall 2012 deadline for starting construction in the Central Valley and requirements that about $3 billion in federal funds be spent only on that segment."


----------



## leemell

WhoozOn1st said:


> A report by the state Legislative Analyst's Office calls for big changes in the way California's HSR effort is being managed. Among other things it recommends that decision-making be turned over to the state Dept. of Transportation (Caltrans), and the California Transportation Commission.
> 
> Changes Urged For Rail Project
> 
> "The high-speed rail authority now operates with only a policy-setting board and a small bureaucracy to manage dozens of engineering, management and public relations contractors. Even the authority's own internal oversight panel has called the staff too small to handle such a large undertaking."
> 
> Also...
> 
> "The analyst's report concluded that deadlines and requirements for spending federal funds need to be renegotiated and changed to provide legislators more time and greater flexibility to make the multibillion-dollar decisions they could soon face.
> 
> "The researchers recommended negotiating with the federal government to modify a fall 2012 deadline for starting construction in the Central Valley and requirements that about $3 billion in federal funds be spent only on that segment."


On one hand I agree with part of this, CAHSR's staff is far to small to manage this enormous construction task. It is very easy to get run over by your contractors, it requires a lot of experience to manage this. On the other hand,I would not trust CalTrans with this project, they have very little train construction experience, but can mange very large projects. I think CAHSR needs to ramp up their construction and finance teams very soon, they are planning for steel on the ground in less than 18 months. They need a few key people who have HSR project experience now.


----------



## stntylr

My favorite part of the report is the fact that 193 million dollars is budgeted to be spent this year on the HSR project. Since they aren't planning on building anything yet the entire amount is going to consultants and administrative costs.


----------



## leemell

stntylr said:


> My favorite part of the report is the fact that 193 million dollars is budgeted to be spent this year on the HSR project. Since they aren't planning on building anything yet the entire amount is going to consultants and administrative costs.


And make that big engineering costs. With just 18 months to go this is when some of the heavy engineering gets done.


----------



## jis

stntylr said:


> My favorite part of the report is the fact that 193 million dollars is budgeted to be spent this year on the HSR project. Since they aren't planning on building anything yet the entire amount is going to consultants and administrative costs.


So you believe that they should just get on with the digging without having a complete design and architecture? Or do you believe that the design and architecture gets done for free by someone?


----------



## stntylr

I know it doesn't get done for free but the writer of the report seems to think most of it is waste. Apparently community outreach is a big part that amount.

I'm not against HSR I just don't have any confidence in the state of California's ability to build it. The report also gives a new estimate of total construction cost of 67 billion dollars. Plus an operating cost of 1 billion dollars a year to run it. It was also pointed out that once operational it cannot receive any local, state or federal subsidies. So it will have to generate 1 billion dollars in revenue a year from day one.

It looks like a warning that the project is in danger of becoming a huge money pit.

And you might attack me for this but I agree.


----------



## jis

stntylr said:


> It looks like a warning that the project is in danger of becoming a huge money pit.
> 
> And you might attack me for this but I agree.


Not attacking. Just asking questions. Actually in a perverse way, if California manages to forfeit the grant because they are unable to meet the 2017 deadline, that could be a blessing for some other parts of the country. And of course starting to reconsider which segment to build at this point would seem to elevate the probability considerably that they will fail to meet the deadline.

Incidentally the recent grant to Amtrak for NEC has the same restrictions in terms of the deadline for completing the project. But then again, that is a much smaller and less risky project and is almost certain to be completed before 2017.


----------



## AlanB

stntylr said:


> Plus an operating cost of 1 billion dollars a year to run it. It was also pointed out that once operational it cannot receive any local, state or federal subsidies. So it will have to generate 1 billion dollars in revenue a year from day one.


Amtrak's NEC generated just shy of $900 Million last year, and that with much slower speeds than California is talking. So it's not beyond the realm of possibilty that they could generate a billion.

And personally, while I haven't yet gone to read the report, a billion in expenses sounds high to me. Amtrak with much older infrastructure on the NEC, and a RR that predominately averages 3 tracks over much of the ROW only spent $789M last year. And Amtrak runs many more trains on the NEC driving up costs, than will be run on Cali's HSR.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."

High-speed train wreck

"The train's biggest problems can be laid at the feet of the High Speed Rail Authority, which is overseeing its construction. Inexperienced board members appointed by the governor and Legislature on the basis of political patronage rather than expertise have made a host of poor decisions. Not the least boneheaded of these is the board's plan to take a circuitous route from Los Angeles to Bakersfield by veering through Palmdale and Lancaster. Compared with the more direct route along Interstate 5 through the Grapevine, this would add 30 miles to the trip plus $1 billion in construction costs, and make it all but impossible for the train to meet its promised travel time of 2 hours and 40 minutes from L.A. to San Francisco. The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."


----------



## George Harris

stntylr said:


> I know it doesn't get done for free but the writer of the report seems to think most of it is waste. Apparently community outreach is a big part that amount.


"Community Outreach" is a polite way of naming teh NIMBY fights and dealing with other issues, both real and (mostly) imaginary, that are raised by those that oppose the project. Dealing with these issues is as much fun as a trip to the dentist when he is out of novacaine, but necessary if the project is to ever be built.


----------



## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."
> 
> The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."


1. And how, pray tell, do we not attempt to follow the directions of those providing major money?

2. And what agency do they thing is out there that will do a better job?

Anybody there? Either make some suggestions or go away. This is simply Monday Mornign Quarterbacking, with the exception that is more equivalent to waiting till Thursday to do it.


----------



## leemell

George Harris said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."
> 
> The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."
> 
> 
> 
> 1. And how, pray tell, do we not attempt to follow the directions of those providing major money?
> 
> 2. And what agency do they thing is out there that will do a better job?
> 
> Anybody there? Either make some suggestions or go away. This is simply Monday Mornign Quarterbacking, with the exception that is more equivalent to waiting till Thursday to do it.
Click to expand...

By implication, they are referring to the Legislative Analyst's suggestion to transfer it CalTrans. You know, that great bureaucracy of train building. :giggle:


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Three published reader responses to the above-linked editorial, "High-speed train wreck." Letters copy/pasted to spare slogging through the other 9 printed 5-21-11, with authors' names omitted.

Letter 1:

In 2008, Californians voted for a bullet train from Los Angeles to San Francisco, not local commuter rail improvements, to which The Times suggests some of the federal money for high-speed rail be redirected.

The California High-Speed Rail Authority is starting in the Central Valley because of geographic and financial realities. It is hardly a "train to nowhere." Bullet trains will be able to slow at the northern end and continue to the Bay Area and Sacramento behind a diesel locomotive on existing tracks as an interim solution. This gets us closest in the least amount of time to a viable, statewide high-speed service.

Los Angeles

Letter 2:

We all know that the lure of billions in federal dollars is irresistible, just like free samples from a drug dealer. We need to kill this project before billions more taxpayer dollars are wasted.

At a time when existing infrastructure is falling apart due to less money for maintenance, and our educational system is being savaged for the same reason, how can we think of burdening the future with the cost of a system that not enough people would use? Is it insanity or just stupidity that propels this project onward like a runaway train?

Chatsworth

Letter 3:

Your editorial didn't address one question: whether we are capable of completing such a project in our lifetime.

I live near the 405 Freeway and have watched in wonder and amazement as attempts have been made to widen the freeway.

If it takes many years to widen a couple of miles of freeway, how long will it take to build a high-speed rail system hundreds of miles long?

Los Angeles


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Federal officials say California cannot delay or relocate the first phase of HSR construction:

U.S. rejects proposed changes to bullet-train project

"In a letter to the rail authority, the Transportation Department stated that general appropriations law and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act require that construction begin in 2012, the last year the funds would be available.

"The Transportation Department 'has no administrative authority to change this deadline and does not believe it is prudent to assume Congress will change it,' wrote Roy Kienitz, a department undersecretary. 'We recommend that policy makers in California proceed on the basis that this deadline will remain fixed.'"


----------



## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> Federal officials say California cannot delay or relocate the first phase of HSR construction:
> 
> U.S. rejects proposed changes to bullet-train project


Note that the article's map still shown only the Corcoran to Borden segment, despite that the current plan has Bakersfield on the south end, but then that would be something other than the "nowhere to nowhere label.


----------



## leemell

Palmdale threatens to sue CAHSR if they go ahead with Grapevine study.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Palmdale should dummy up.


----------



## leemell

Five big city mayors in CA defend and advocate for HSR in Sacramento Newspaper column.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

An increasingly bleak financial and political climate at both federal and state levels poses a building threat to California's nascent HSR project. That's no bolt from the blue, but unsettling nonetheless:

Deficit Could Derail Bullet Train

"In coming months, Gov. Jerry Brown will decide whether to issue the bonds to launch the project — at a time when the nation and state are attempting to control mounting public debt that has already damaged both their credit ratings.

"The bullet train hinges on a huge investment of federal dollars when Washington is intent on cutting the nation's budget. Republicans who control the House of Representatives have already declared new rail construction their 'lowest priority.'"


----------



## Anderson

Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect _have_ to be in the most bankrupt state in America?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect _have_ to be in the most bankrupt state in America?


Here in America we have states with the money to spend and states with the will to actually spend it. But we don't have many states with both. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it. It also helps explain why America as we know it will never have a modern national HSR network. The days of dreaming big are still with us, but the days of shared work and sacrifice to achieve a common goal are long gone.


----------



## leemell

Anderson said:


> Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect _have_ to be in the most bankrupt state in America?


I hate to tell you this, but California is far from the most bankrupt state, check out these numbers from 2010.


----------



## Anderson

leemell said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect _have_ to be in the most bankrupt state in America?
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but California is far from the most bankrupt state, check out these numbers from 2010.
Click to expand...

I actually think it shows that it is...it has the second-worst deficit, but it's one of only three states showing up in all three columns there. Moreover, its deficit is on a _lot_ more money than AZ's is.


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## leemell

Anderson said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect _have_ to be in the most bankrupt state in America?
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but California is far from the most bankrupt state, check out these numbers from 2010.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I actually think it shows that it is...it has the second-worst deficit, but it's one of only three states showing up in all three columns there. Moreover, its deficit is on a _lot_ more money than AZ's is.
Click to expand...

Actually it is the debt per capita that counts, AZ has a far smaller population, look at these and then say that CA is the worst.

These are California's numbers:

Debt per Capita: $9,228 (39th) Unemployment Rate: 12.4% (48th) Home Price Change (’06 – ’09): -28.3% (49th) Median Household Income: $58,931 (9th)


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## Anderson

CA is marginally worse in terms of debt per capita, but it's farther down on the ratings scale, meaning that it's worse off in terms of debt service. I would also point out that the state has constitutional hangups blocking up tax hikes (Prop. 13), which make things potentially worse than other states...not that tax hikes alone can fix the problems CA is facing.


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## George Harris

Texas Sunset said:


> The days of dreaming big are still with us,


I really don't think so. It they were, we would have a permanent moon base an people on Mars, probably permanently there, as well. Instead, it has been over 40 years since we have had people beyond orbital limits.

Now back to railroads: We are not getting anything done becuase we are so busy fretting the small stuff. The least and most useless critter can stop major projects. I could go on, but I better quit.


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## Anderson

George Harris said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> The days of dreaming big are still with us,
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think so. It they were, we would have a permanent moon base an people on Mars, probably permanently there, as well. Instead, it has been over 40 years since we have had people beyond orbital limits.
> 
> Now back to railroads: We are not getting anything done becuase we are so busy fretting the small stuff. The least and most useless critter can stop major projects. I could go on, but I better quit.
Click to expand...

I've long wanted to see an EIS lawsuit responded to with a statement to the effect of "Fine, we'll assume your worst case scenario. The project still has our support and we consider it to be the best option even then. Simply put, we do not care about your [insert species here]." Of course, then again I'd just assume see the relevant secretary waive out the Tier II process on virtually every major project (Tier I has benefits in terms of weighing options; Tier II just drags on and on while regurgitating a lot of the important Tier I stuff).

And I do tend to agree that we have a habit of chucking big dreams out the window because somebody whines...but I think we have a habit of giving into random complaints far, far too much.


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## WhoozOn1st

California high-speed rail project takes financial hit

"House Republican leaders had signaled before the session that they would not support any request for additional high-speed rail outlays. They cited pressure to cut spending and argued such projects don't make economic sense."


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## leemell

*High-speed rail route to be revised*

CAHSR announced today that the 114 mi. segment between Bakersfild to Freson will be revised. The new design will be published in the Spring. Groundbreaking will continue to be in the Fall of 2012.


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## WhoozOn1st

Bullet train plan would leave path of destruction (print headline)

"More than a mile-long segment of California 99, the major freeway serving the farm belt, would have to be moved about 100 feet and three exits would have to be closed. In Kings County, a processing plant that handles about a quarter of a million pounds of dairy cow carcasses would be bisected by the rail, said Jim Andreoli, chief executive of Baker Commodities, owner of the plant. Shutting down for even a few days would leave a mountain of carcasses.

"Almost every city and county along the proposed route loses something, but none more than Bakersfield. More than 228 homes and more than a half dozen churches would be taken, many of them in low-income minority communities on the city's east side. The rail authority's plans have both homeowners and government agencies confused.

"In formal comments submitted this month to the authority, Bakersfield officials called the plans 'ambiguous and unstable.' What's more, the authority was being 'clearly unreasonable' in initially allowing only two months for the city to review the plans."

______________

"'Some people will say they screwed a bunch of farmers in Kings County. So who cares?' said Frank Oliveira, a farmer. 'The answer is they will screw you too when it comes to your neighborhood.'"


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> Bullet train plan would leave path of destruction (print headline)
> 
> "More than a mile-long segment of California 99, the major freeway serving the farm belt, would have to be moved about 100 feet and three exits would have to be closed. In Kings County, a processing plant that handles about a quarter of a million pounds of dairy cow carcasses would be bisected by the rail, said Jim Andreoli, chief executive of Baker Commodities, owner of the plant. Shutting down for even a few days would leave a mountain of carcasses.


This has got to be one of the most lopsided articles ever seen on the subject. These people that are being affected will be crying all the way to the bank. You can't detour around everything. I think the one mile segment they are talking about is in Fresno. Look in the plans, which are part of these environmental statements, and you will see that the exits are rbuilt. Suspect most of these whiners are positioning themselves for bigger payoffs.


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## WhoozOn1st

Tried normal reply, but it wouldn't work.

Anyway, yeah, the print headline alone reads like a Godzilla movie poster, and/or Republican propaganda. The L.A. Times really seems to have atrophied back to its roots as a reactionary shill sheet.


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## WhoozOn1st

The Times has published a couple reader letters responding to its latest HSR story. Copy/pasted to avoid dredging through the day's other letters, and names omitted as always. However, I happened to recognize one of the names as that of an AU member, whooz not me. Let the guessing begin!

*In the path of high-speed rail*

* *

Re "Bullet train plan would leave path of destruction," Oct. 23

Letter 1:

In France I rode the high-speed TGV between Lyon and Paris. It was fast and quiet, and there were no vibrations. It was also nearly empty.

So how many people would ride a bullet train between San Francisco and Los Angeles? We really need high-speed trains between L.A. and San Diego, where Amtrak pokes along at about 40 miles per hour. Another route that could use better trains is the Riverside-Temecula-San Diego corridor, where weekday traffic moves at a crawl.

Beyond that, perhaps just fast non-bullet trains should be added to the mix, which cost much less.

____________

Letter 2:

Kittens. The Times forgot to mention the millions of fluffy kittens that will be killed by the California high-speed rail project.


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## WhoozOn1st

U.P., and the nation's largest farm, weigh in on Cal HSR's proposed route. Hint: They're not fans.

Railroad denounces plans for bullet train

"The company's comments as part of an environmental review assert that the authority, which is building the $43-billion system, has made a 'false conclusion' that the bullet train would not affect the freight railroad's operations during construction or later passenger service. Documents and drawings show encroachment onto the railroad's right of way in Fresno and Merced. The comments were provided to the Times by Union Pacific."

_________

"Union Pacific's concerns come only weeks after J.G. Boswell, the nation's largest farm, asserted that the bullet train could destroy processing plants, irrigation canals and a private airport when it cuts through Kings County. Boswell, which has a long history of fiercely defending its property rights, asked for a six-month delay in the environmental review process. Shortly after, the authority announced that it would issue a new environmental report in six months and allow parties to comment again."


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## WhoozOn1st

Bleak...

Projected bullet train costs double

"California's bullet train will cost an estimated $98.5 billion to build over the next 22 years, a price nearly double any previous projection and one likely to trigger political sticker shock, according to a business plan scheduled to be unveiled Tuesday."

_______________

Bleaker...

Cost could derail bullet train plans

"'This is not a train to nowhere,' said California High-Speed Rail Authority board member Dan Richards, a finance expert appointed to the rail agency's board this summer by Gov. Jerry Brown. 'It will be a train to where trains are waiting. That is the new strategy.'"

"The extended construction scheme still would begin next year with a controversial spine of track in the Central Valley, leading to initial operation of 220-mph trains to either San Jose or the San Fernando Valley in roughly a decade, officials said.

"However, the new construction schedule would lead to dramatically higher costs at a time when California's heavy debt load already has yielded one of the lowest credit ratings in the nation."

_______________

Commentary...

Still no straight route to confidence in bullet train

"Now we're told that was all wrong. Actually, the cost of the first phase alone has tripled to $98.5 billion. The completion date has been delayed until 2033. There's $3 billion in federal money available but no more on the horizon. And no private investors are in sight. They want to see passengers actually buying tickets."


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## saxman

A little perspective...

High Costs Threaten California's High-Speed Rail Project, But the Wider Context Must be Understood



> More broadly, the state must make a decision about how it wants to invest in its transportation future. As already noted, *the state department of transportation is likely to invest about $300 billion in mostly highway infrastructure over the next two decades.* With so much spending directed towards the roads network, it cannot be easy to dismiss a large spending commitment to rail. But the difference between the two is obvious: Because the rail line is a single project (despite its statewide implications), it is viewed in terms of its huge costs and long-term lifecycle; the roads improvements likely to occur during the same period are four times as expensive — but broken into much smaller, shorter-term projects, so they are far less politically vulnerable.


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## WhoozOn1st

saxman said:


> A little perspective...
> High Costs Threaten California's High-Speed Rail Project, But the Wider Context Must be Understood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More broadly, the state must make a decision about how it wants to invest in its transportation future. As already noted, *the state department of transportation is likely to invest about $300 billion in mostly highway infrastructure over the next two decades.* With so much spending directed towards the roads network, it cannot be easy to dismiss a large spending commitment to rail. But the difference between the two is obvious: Because the rail line is a single project (despite its statewide implications), it is viewed in terms of its huge costs and long-term lifecycle; the roads improvements likely to occur during the same period are four times as expensive — but broken into much smaller, shorter-term projects, so they are far less politically vulnerable.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure many AU members have a more accurate and complete perspective on California HSR than could be gained by the general public reading the L.A. Times, where it's been a lively story, editorial, and Op-Ed topic lately...

Editorial:

Still on board the bullet train

"The bullet train would be the backbone of public transit systems that would connect to it in urban centers. It's still a good investment, even if a much bigger one than voters were originally told. Bullet trains have been successful in places with even bigger financial problems than California (notably Spain), and we'd like to think that the home of such visionaries as Steve Jobs, Howard Hughes, D.W. Griffith and Earl Warren is at least as forward-thinking on transportation as, say, Japan or Turkey."

Op-Ed:

Take this bullet train. Please.

"The new report from the same old consultants assures us that we don't need to worry about where the $100 billion will come from or who will actually ride this railroad. The new report has new numbers — most assuredly correct numbers, because why shouldn't we trust these people? And they have a plan."


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## WhoozOn1st

Not really news from the Party of No...

Bullet Train Funds in GOP Sights

"The case against the bullet train is being led by a group of California Republicans, including Rep. Jeff Denham (R-Atwater) and Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield), the House majority whip, who have argued the project is deeply flawed and has become unaffordable as the cost has spiraled to $98.5 billion.

"Denham, a subcommittee chairman on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said he believes all of the project's grants can be rescinded by Congress and should be reallocated to highway construction in the Central Valley. Republican staffers are formulating plans to grab the bullet train money, which they said has not been spent or put under contract."


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## leemell

WhoozOn1st said:


> Not really news from the Party of No...
> 
> Bullet Train Funds in GOP Sights
> 
> "The case against the bullet train is being led by a group of California Republicans, including Rep. Jeff Denham (R-Atwater) and Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield), the House majority whip, who have argued the project is deeply flawed and has become unaffordable as the cost has spiraled to $98.5 billion.
> 
> "Denham, a subcommittee chairman on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said he believes all of the project's grants can be rescinded by Congress and should be reallocated to highway construction in the Central Valley. Republican staffers are formulating plans to grab the bullet train money, which they said has not been spent or put under contract."


This just in:

"Californians For High Speed Rail

*Great news! The California High Speed Rail project achieved a significant milestone today. The U.S. Department of Transportation "obligated" all remaining federal funds today previously awarded to California's HSR project. This is significant because now funds are no longer subject to be rescinded (or taken back) by any future legislation in Congress."*

* *

*I guess they heard the House and decided to act.*


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## leemell

Excerpted form the Railroad.net, Railroad Industry News:

"Funding Secured for First Phase of California High-Speed Rail



> Posted: 27 Nov 2011 12:34 PM PST
> An important step in making California high-speed rail a reality has recently been announced in a California High-Speed Rail Authority press release. The announcement reveals that the authority and the Federal Railroad Administration have signed a cooperative agreement, which will allot $928 million for the first phase of high-speed rail construction. With this agreement, it is confirmed that enough funding has been secured for the design, engineering and construction of the first 130 miles of high-speed rail. ...


_Moderator edit: reduced the quoted material due to copyright issues and credited source._


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## WhoozOn1st

Roadblock after obstruction after hurdle...

Bullet train funding plan faulted

"The funding plan for the California bullet train does not comply with key provisions of a ballot measure that voters approved to authorize the project and $9 billion in state bonds to help finance it, according to a report released Tuesday.

"The study — by the Legislative Analyst's Office, which periodically reviews the $98-billion construction proposal — concluded that the most recent funding plan does not meet important requirements of Proposition 1A because high-speed trains cannot operate on the first stretch of track to be built next year in the Central Valley."







Note the use of past tense.
​


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## leemell

WhoozOn1st said:


> Roadblock after obstruction after hurdle...
> 
> Bullet train funding plan faulted
> 
> "The funding plan for the California bullet train does not comply with key provisions of a ballot measure that voters approved to authorize the project and $9 billion in state bonds to help finance it, according to a report released Tuesday.
> 
> "The study — by the Legislative Analyst's Office, which periodically reviews the $98-billion construction proposal — concluded that the most recent funding plan does not meet important requirements of Proposition 1A because high-speed trains cannot operate on the first stretch of track to be built next year in the Central Valley."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the use of past tense.
> ​


They start next year or lose the Federal funding. This is the first strike back by a legislator.


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## WhoozOn1st

Bullet train would lose in revote

"'It is easy to understand voter frustration on a lot of things at this very moment, but it shouldn't dictate the future of California's transportation infrastructure,' said state Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, (D-Sacramento). 'A knee-jerk reaction to a snapshot in time would be a mistake.'"


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## Devil's Advocate

President Elect Gingrich must be furious to hear that America's last best chance for high speed rail is already on the ropes and will likely be long gone before he can be sworn in. :lol:


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## George Harris

WhoozOn1st said:


> Bullet train would lose in revote
> 
> "'It is easy to understand voter frustration on a lot of things at this very moment, but it shouldn't dictate the future of California's transportation infrastructure,' said state Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, (D-Sacramento). 'A knee-jerk reaction to a snapshot in time would be a mistake.'"


The anti-HSR people are getting major publicity, and are not letting the facts get in the way of their whines. "Bussinesses will be shut dow! ! !" Horror of horrors! Yes, there will be businesses that have to relocate. News Flash! You can't go fast and go around everything. The whiners will bet paid to relocate. Affected facilites, such as the school in Bakersfield will be relocated! Overpasses adn underpasses will be built, some roads will be relocated. Do you really think the railroad will cost as much as is bugeted? Much of the money will go to making these whiners happy.

The reason that it is justifiable to build something that may not make a profit, but based on what has happened in other parts of the world probably will, is that many people are benefitted that are not paying fares to ride the trains. Think of all the cars NOT on the roads. Think of the airport congestion that is not there, etc., ect. Think of all the exhaust fumes from cars and planes that are not spewed into the atmosphere.


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## leemell

The LA Times printed this pretty neutral and fairly informative article today on the driving requirements for the CAHSR project.


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## guest

leemell said:


> The LA Times printed this pretty neutral and fairly informative article today on the driving requirements for the CAHSR project.


The usual "bullet train or death" fanatics on this thread will claim the LA Times is in league with hundreds of others in some evil conspiracy to kill the project (even tho the Times editorially supports the concept) but I don't know how any objective observer can read this article and not sense that something terribly wrong has gone on with the planning and budgeting process. There are too many people from too many different sides of the political spectrum raising questions for defenders to just shout "conspiracy" or "NIMBY" or other epithets any more and expect to be taken seriously.

In a perfect world, the bullet train would be a great addition. But for a small smidgeon of the $98 billion being bandied about, you could provide LA, San Diego, Sacramento, Orange County, etc. with well-functioning rapid transit systems more than competitive to private auto use. It's time to start thinking of alternatives before everything is lost.


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## WhoozOn1st

U.S. stands by California bullet train project despite critics

"'We are not going to flinch on that support,' said Joseph Szabo, chief of the Federal Railroad Administration.

"Szabo said that his agency had committed itself to provide $3.3 billion for a construction start next year in the Central Valley and that federal law prohibits any change of mind about where to begin building the first segment of the state's high-speed rail system."

"'The worst thing we could do is make obligations to folks and start to renege on our word,' Szabo told the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee."


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