# Solari Board at PHL



## Acela150 (Aug 27, 2018)

Folks,

It appears that the Solari Board at PHL is in it's last days.

A reliable source stated that Replacements are in house somewhere.

GET YOUR PHOTOS AND VIDEO!!!!!


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## cpotisch (Aug 28, 2018)

I don't know PHL well. What is so important about the Solari board? I've heard it mentioned many times before, but is it special or unique in any way?


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I don't know PHL well. What is so important about the Solari board? I've heard it mentioned many times before, but is it special or unique in any way?


It's a split-flap board. I remember my family had an alarm clock with a split-flap display. If you ever saw Groundhog Day, one (with a radio) was featured prominently.



I haven't seen it myself. My sole experiences at PHL were a train change on the Keystone and a transfer from SEPTA to NJT. Never went down to see the ground level. The latest board like that I know of was installed at the San Francisco Ferry Building.


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## cpotisch (Aug 28, 2018)

BCL said:


> If you ever saw Groundhog Day, one (with a radio) was featured prominently.


Put your little hands in mind, there ain't no hill or mountain we can't climb...


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## DCAKen (Aug 28, 2018)

The NJTransit station at Atlantic City NJ still has a Solari board.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 28, 2018)

So does TRE, although I would never suggest anyone take a trip to Trenton for any reason, not even to see a Solari board.

Oddly enough, because I usually prefer older things to newer ones, I never really took to the Solari board--I prefer the digital displays because they update faster and can contain information on more trains at a time. Plus, the Solari boards at PHL and TRE are right in the middle of foot traffic--as you come in the door at Trenton, and right above the information desk in Philly--so you have to be careful to stay out of people's paths as you're looking up at the board.


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > If you ever saw Groundhog Day, one (with a radio) was featured prominently.
> ...


I've got you babe.....


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> So does TRE, although I would never suggest anyone take a trip to Trenton for any reason, not even to see a Solari board.
> 
> Oddly enough, because I usually prefer older things to newer ones, I never really took to the Solari board--I prefer the digital displays because they update faster and can contain information on more trains at a time. Plus, the Solari boards at PHL and TRE are right in the middle of foot traffic--as you come in the door at Trenton, and right above the information desk in Philly--so you have to be careful to stay out of people's paths as you're looking up at the board.


The one in the San Francisco Ferry Building is made by Solari.

https://mtc.ca.gov/sites/default/files/Flap_sign_fact-Sheet_02-13-13.pdf

The company that manufactured the sign is Solari di Udine located in Udine, Italy. Solari di Udine is world renowned as a flap sign maker, has been manufacturing flap signs since the 1940s and is the only company currently manufacturing split-flap displays.

It might not be accurate that it's the only company making them. I found that there's a small design company in the suburbs of Philly that custom makes them.

https://www.oatfoundry.com/split-flap/


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 28, 2018)

Seacaucus Junction has them, I think they were installed new when the station was built new about 10 years ago.

Also.. the Starbucks Roastery Room in Seattle has one, it changes to announce which coffee is currently being roasted. Kinda fun.

And that brings up an interesting point... why does Starbucks have one? Cause these cool vintage things are quite "hip" now a-days with the Starbucks core audience, which is, young students and young professionals. The same core audience of Apple computer. Companies like Amtrak could do alot to create a "vintage cool" transit system. I'm not talking about vintage like a museum.. they will still want wi-fi, power outlets, and other modern comforts. But they will want them provide in an "I can instagram this and make it look like I'm super cool" enviroment.


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## cpotisch (Aug 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seacaucus Junction has them, I think they were installed new when the station was built new about 10 years ago.
> 
> Also.. the Starbucks Roastery Room in Seattle has one, it changes to announce which coffee is currently being roasted. Kinda fun.
> 
> And that brings up an interesting point... why does Starbucks have one? Cause these cool vintage things are quite "hip" now a-days with the Starbucks core audience, which is, young students and young professionals. The same core audience of Apple computer. Companies like Amtrak could do alot to create a "vintage cool" transit system. I'm not talking about vintage like a museum.. they will still want wi-fi, power outlets, and other modern comforts. But they will want them provide in an "I can instagram this and make it look like I'm super cool" enviroment.


When Starbucks has a nicer train departure board than Amtrak...


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## PVD (Aug 28, 2018)

The clocks are considered a design classic, and they are available new in a couple of styles and a number of colors, Very expensive.


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## PVD (Aug 28, 2018)

They cost a lot of money both to purchase and to maintain, they are much more limited in their capabilities than a good video screen, or even an led generated display. People like them, some of the replacements have been designed either to mimic their appearance or simulate the distinctive sound. Solari is alive and well, but mostly with new technology.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 28, 2018)

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised amtrak didn't go with a Solari style digital display?

Another modern place where you see the split-flaps is at Disney, most of their wait times are shown with a split-flap display unless it's thematically correct to use digital (like in tomorrowland and future world in EPCOT).


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## PVD (Aug 28, 2018)

People really like them. There is something comforting about watching the numbers change, even if it's now more likely to be simulated.


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seacaucus Junction has them, I think they were installed new when the station was built new about 10 years ago.
> 
> Also.. the Starbucks Roastery Room in Seattle has one, it changes to announce which coffee is currently being roasted. Kinda fun.
> 
> And that brings up an interesting point... why does Starbucks have one? Cause these cool vintage things are quite "hip" now a-days with the Starbucks core audience, which is, young students and young professionals. The same core audience of Apple computer. Companies like Amtrak could do alot to create a "vintage cool" transit system. I'm not talking about vintage like a museum.. they will still want wi-fi, power outlets, and other modern comforts. But they will want them provide in an "I can instagram this and make it look like I'm super cool" enviroment.


I was pretty young when these things were in pretty much every "modern" alarm clock, and the 7-segment LED display was considered state of the art.

As for SB (and I'll say I'm not really a fan) they seem to have ordered several of these displays, and they all seem to be from the one company in PA and not specifically Solari.

I'm wondering if the Nixie tube will be the next step, although that's somewhat impractical except for digits and/or a small number of characters. With a split-flap there can be dozens of flaps, but with a Nixie tube they need to be stacked and once it gets to a dozen it may be impractical.


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## Acela150 (Aug 28, 2018)

BCL said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Seacaucus Junction has them, I think they were installed new when the station was built new about 10 years ago.
> ...


If one looks at the details of the Solari Board in PHL it states that it was built by Solari and has Italy on the board.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 28, 2018)

Well when I was on the Canadian there were a lot of people in my generation on board it because it was the vintage cool way to go.


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## west point (Aug 28, 2018)

What would be best IMHO would be a combination of both flip and elecronic display boards. That way if one type fails the other can take over. There is no tech that will continue to work indefinitely. Why does everything have to be to one lowest common demoniator ?.


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


I was referring to Starbucks ("SB"). If you check the Oat Foundry website, they list work for Starbucks at a coffee plantation in Costa Rica and their roastery in Shanghai. For the Seattle roastery, I can't find anything either way, other than an article that calls it a "Solari board". I'm under the impression that the author was using it as a generic term.


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## BCL (Aug 28, 2018)

west point said:


> What would be best IMHO would be a combination of both flip and elecronic display boards. That way if one type fails the other can take over. There is no tech that will continue to work indefinitely. Why does everything have to be to one lowest common demoniator ?.


All the current split-flap boards are as reliant on a solid electronic communication as an all-electronic board. The description I see of them is that they can be controlled via a computer or even a smart phone.

They can be programmed any number of ways, although I'm thinking that the one at 30th St is simply tied into Amtrak's system.


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## railiner (Aug 29, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> it was the vintage cool way to go.


If you really want vintage, bring back this....

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/GCT_Biltmore_Room%3B_June_2016%3B_Old_NYC_Trains.jpg


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## cirdan (Aug 29, 2018)

Oner of the down sides of digital monitor screens is that they become difficult to read in adverse light conditions, for examle when the sun is shining in at an awkward angle..


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## cpotisch (Aug 29, 2018)

cirdan said:


> Oner of the down sides of digital monitor screens is that they become difficult to read in adverse light conditions, for examle when the sun is shining in at an awkward angle..


Depends on what kind of display. Certain LED and OLED screens are still very easy to read, regardless of the lighting and angle of it. I wonder if anyone has every looked into an e-ink departure board, though...


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## PVD (Aug 29, 2018)

The "newer" new technology systems can be equipped with dynamic brightness and contrast control, reading the ambient light conditions and adjusting accordingly. That makes a big difference when properly implemented.


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## railiner (Aug 29, 2018)

Surprised they haven't thought of "saving money" and having passenger's look up the "board" on some new phone app....never mind...sorry I even suggested it...


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## cpotisch (Aug 29, 2018)

railiner said:


> Surprised they haven't thought of "saving money" and having passenger's look up the "board" on some new phone app....never mind...sorry I even suggested it...


Honestly, while it is nice to have a big physical departure board, I really wouldn't care if I had to just do it on my phone. Penn Station's main departure board is digital and unimpressive, so I personally wouldn't be missing out on much.


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## jebr (Aug 29, 2018)

Departure boards are still necessary for those who don't have smartphones, their data connection is spotty, they don't know where/how to get the information on their smartphone quickly, etc. It's also a good way to get some emergency/last minute announcements communicated quickly and efficiently.

Physical departure boards aren't going away anytime soon, even in the era of smartphones.


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## PVD (Aug 29, 2018)

The smaller boards spotted around the station actually are pretty useful.


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## trainman74 (Aug 29, 2018)

PVD said:


> The smaller boards spotted around the station actually are pretty useful.


I remember back when the auxiliary arrival/departure boards at Hoboken Terminal were black-and-white TV monitors showing the feed from a camera aimed at the main board.


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## BCL (Aug 29, 2018)

PVD said:


> The "newer" new technology systems can be equipped with dynamic brightness and contrast control, reading the ambient light conditions and adjusting accordingly. That makes a big difference when properly implemented.


Stadium video displays based off of LEDs are extremely good these days. They're perfectly visible - even in full sunlight.

However, some places still use flip-matrix boards. That kind of bridges the gap between modern LED/LCD dot matrix signs and split-flaps that have dozens of positions. They only require two positions - black and the primary color.



I still see these types of signs used for road signs (such as construction zone). The advantage is that they can be programmed and then left that way, although often they often have problems with not having enough ambient light unless they're somehow lit.


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## PVD (Aug 29, 2018)

Flip dots and similar sign types are extremely common in transit destination signs, especially buses.


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## BCL (Aug 30, 2018)

PVD said:


> Flip dots and similar sign types are extremely common in transit destination signs, especially buses.


I think a lot of them gradually flip the dots for effect,. There could be an issue with overloading the power supply with too much simultaneous flips. But of course the big benefit is that they can be shut down, and unlike LED/LCD displays they'll stay right where they are.

I've heard of some that claim they can achieve 14 frames per second to do animation.


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## BCL (Aug 30, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > Oner of the down sides of digital monitor screens is that they become difficult to read in adverse light conditions, for examle when the sun is shining in at an awkward angle..
> ...


Not a arrival/departure board, but at an airport as an art display.


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## CHamilton (Nov 29, 2018)

So long, Solari.

Beloved 30th Street Station information board scheduled to depart

https://kywnewsradio.radio.com/articles/news/beloved-30th-street-station-information-board-scheduled-depart?fbclid=IwAR0wda-4H4cClH1pxMagfJbazAQJvdKND5bFpKnG3jEC_fFSkaoC336kl4c


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## Acela150 (Nov 29, 2018)

Heart. Broken.


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## BCL (Nov 30, 2018)

CHamilton said:


> So long, Solari.
> 
> Beloved 30th Street Station information board scheduled to depart
> 
> https://kywnewsradio.radio.com/articles/news/beloved-30th-street-station-information-board-scheduled-depart?fbclid=IwAR0wda-4H4cClH1pxMagfJbazAQJvdKND5bFpKnG3jEC_fFSkaoC336kl4c




I don't get the claim that it's one of the last ones of its kind still being used.  Solari is still making these types of boards, and there are others such as the company in the Philly suburbs I found.  They've got one at the Ferry Building in San Francisco for ferry departures, and that was installed in 2013.


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## Acela150 (Nov 30, 2018)

https://6abc.com/travel/flipping-board-at-30th-street-station-to-be-replaced-in-january/4797646/


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## Skyline (Nov 30, 2018)

jebr said:


> Departure boards are still necessary for those who don't have smartphones, their data connection is spotty, they don't know where/how to get the information on their smartphone quickly, etc. It's also a good way to get some emergency/last minute announcements communicated quickly and efficiently.
> 
> Physical departure boards aren't going away anytime soon, even in the era of smartphones.


I hope you're right. Give me a video screen or even a Solari board to look at while I'm in the station! 

I'm so over every business imaginable expecting us to go to a website or a cell phone app and "do it yourself."


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## Acela150 (Dec 1, 2018)

BCL said:


> I don't get the claim that it's one of the last ones of its kind still being used.  Solari is still making these types of boards, and there are others such as the company in the Philly suburbs I found.  They've got one at the Ferry Building in San Francisco for ferry departures, and that was installed in 2013.


It's the last in the Amtrak system. 

http://www2.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/amtrak-solari-board-30th-street-station-philadelphia-20181130.html

http://www2.philly.com/transportation/th-street-station-flipboard-history-photos-20181130.html


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## CHamilton (Dec 6, 2018)

Column by architecture/design critic, Inga Saffron

Amtrak, keep the mod flipboard sign. It’s part of your heritage. | Inga Saffron

http://www2.philly.com/real-estate/inga-saffron/amtrak-solari-split-flap-board-digital-20181206.html?cid=Philly.com+Facebook&amp;utm_campaign=Philly.com+Facebook+Account&amp;utm_source=facebook.com&amp;utm_medium=social


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## jis (Dec 6, 2018)

Modern Departure and Arrival Boards with full stoppage information for each departing train and complete ETA information for arriving trains looks like this one taken at London Kings Cross last week:




There are two identical banks of these - one bank right above the entry gates to the platform, and another bank at the other end of the concourse.


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## railiner (Dec 6, 2018)

Egads...what's that horrid looking "blimp hangar" marring the classic station architecture?   Sorta reminds me of what they did to Denver...


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## jis (Dec 7, 2018)

Actually moving the main concourse under this new covered area between the old Kings Cross building and St. Pancras is the best thing that happened to Kings Cross in a long time. The old concourse was completely inadequate and cramped. The new one is spacious and airy with very high ceiling.

Euston is about to be rebuilt, and there they are actually going to tear down the old headhouse and replace it completely, rather than build outside of it, preserving the basic structure like they did at Kings Cross.


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## iplaybass (Dec 7, 2018)

jis said:


> Actually moving the main concourse under this new covered area between the old Kings Cross building and St. Pancras is the best thing that happened to Kings Cross in a long time. The old concourse was completely inadequate and cramped. The new one is spacious and airy with very high ceiling.


Given the number of departures from Kings Cross, I'm not surprised by the type of board used. It bothers me a little that Amtrak didn't look for less costly alternatives as per the Inquirer article. 

Just another vanished reminder of my youth.


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## fillyjonk (Dec 7, 2018)

jebr said:


> Departure boards are still necessary for those who don't have smartphones, their data connection is spotty, they don't know where/how to get the information on their smartphone quickly, etc. It's also a good way to get some emergency/last minute announcements communicated quickly and efficiently.
> 
> Physical departure boards aren't going away anytime soon, even in the era of smartphones.


I am a Smartphone Luddite and I would seriously object to "Oh, get the app, it will cover it" instead of any kind of actual notice board.

Also I am SURE there are folks using Amtrak who can't afford a smartphone (part of the reason I won't have one is that the plans are more expensive than my dumbphone, and I'd rather budget that money elsewhere: I can afford a smartphone but then I couldn't afford something else). Forcing people onto an app privileges those who have smartphones, and then there's also the issue of compatability; sometimes apps don't work well (or aren't developed) for different systems. (And I don't know but: would international travelers have problems?)

Also, the online "updates" are only as good as the "updaters." I have seen some online information systems that wind up hours or days out of date (or even longer) because the person tasked with updating them wasn't doing it.


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## jis (Dec 7, 2018)

A good IT system for managing status data would feed the same information to the displays and the Smartphone Apps. So in a well designed system "updates" would be equally good or bad all across the board. If the online system requires a person to update it rather than getting fed automatically from the status data, then it is not part of a well designed 21st century system, and is better to avoid unless absolutely necessary. ^_^ Admittedly in some backward places that is all one has.

In some cases international travelers may have problem in carrying out activities that require an authenticated registration. Those who have used the Indian Railways IRCTC system before this year know how hard it was to get an authenticated registration and login on the system. The authentication is intimately tied to your mobile phone number, and in the past they could not handle numbers that were not within the +91 country code area. Basically without that the only other way to buy a ticket or get a reservation is at a ticket window, which is even harder when you are trying to get a reservation while sitting in a different country.

So far, I am not aware of any Status App that requires that kind of authentication. If you can download and install the App on your platform you are good to go. If your platform is other than Android or iOS, heaven help you. Some apps are now available only on Android, but AFACT always there is a mobile web interface to fall back on.

Week before last, when I was in the UK, I exclusively used the very useful National Rail App for planning and actually making connections etc. some of them 3-4 minute connections, which would have been completely impossible if I was only depending on station boards. OTOH, when at a station I preferred the station boards since they gave me a much broader view of the state of the world at that station in a single glance.

So both have their uses.


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## NorthShore (Dec 10, 2018)

The Solari in Philly....it's so....small.

Somehow, I had always imagined something more impressive up high on a wall.

Glad I got to see it, even though I didn't witness it spinning.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2018)

jis said:


> If you can download and install the App on your platform you are good to go. If your platform is other than Android or iOS, heaven help you. Some apps are now available only on Android, but AFACT always there is a mobile web interface to fall back on.


International travel sometimes requires maintaining multiple app store accounts in order to install applications with limited publishing.  There is also the matter of regional standards and modified implementations, such as Sony's FeliCa NFC.  On the plus side Google Maps has gotten a lot better with handling more advanced public transportation over the years.  In Japan it was able to accurately identify (but not filter) several levels of local and limited express trains along with the correct tracks, platforms, and train lengths (used for confirming car location and boarding position).


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## Anderson (Dec 10, 2018)

jis said:


> Actually moving the main concourse under this new covered area between the old Kings Cross building and St. Pancras is the best thing that happened to Kings Cross in a long time. The old concourse was completely inadequate and cramped. The new one is spacious and airy with very high ceiling.
> 
> Euston is about to be rebuilt, and there they are actually going to tear down the old headhouse and replace it completely, rather than build outside of it, preserving the basic structure like they did at Kings Cross.


I won't disagree with practical utility.  That doesn't mean the resulting structure doesn't look awful;-)


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## cpotisch (Dec 10, 2018)

NorthShore said:


> The Solari in Philly....it's so....small.
> 
> Somehow, I had always imagined something more impressive up high on a wall.
> 
> ...


What do you mean when you say you “didn’t get to witness it spinning”? Was it broken or there were there just no updates happening you were there or what?


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## jis (Dec 10, 2018)

Anderson said:


> I won't disagree with practical utility.  That doesn't mean the resulting structure doesn't look awful;-)


The Brits appear to like it [emoji57] They are apparently going for something similar at Euston, minus the original building. [emoji51]


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 10, 2018)

Sometimes it will be still for a minute or two. For example, if you look at the actual time on the screen, it is 12:28, and the first train listed is 12:31 and is boarding. The rest are late or on time, with a couple boarding. So at 12:28, nothing will change til the people finish boarding and a train departs. So no spinning on the board for a couple of minutes, because nothing has changed. 

(Gorgeous photo of the Main Hall, by the way, NorthShore  .)

For those of you who will miss the Solari board at Philly, there is a consolation prize. The lovely wooden benches are staying  . They are being renovated and having outlets put in them for people's devices, but they are keeping true to the historic character. (I found this out because I was commuting for a while with a woman whose husband is doing the renovations.) I sat on one the other week with the new outlets, and they are very unobtrusive--the bench was just as attractive as it used to be.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 11, 2018)

NorthShore said:


> *The Solari in Philly....it's so....small.*
> 
> *Somehow, I had always imagined something more impressive up high on a wall.*
> 
> ...


Since when did they start listing bus departures on there? Bieber Tourways from Philadelphia to ________________? This appears to be the Thruway service to Allentown/Kutztown. I guess since it's an Amtrak-coded Thruway bus departure, it makes sense to list it there, but it still looks out of place.

That said, that demonstrates the limitations/challenges of that Solari Board. "Kutztown" was not an endpoint destination served by Amtrak when the board was installed. I'm sure you can get new destination flaps installed, but obviously they're not going to do that at this point.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 11, 2018)

fairviewroad said:


> Since when did they start listing bus departures on there? Bieber Tourways from Philadelphia to ________________? This appears to be the Thruway service to Allentown/Kutztown. I guess since it's an Amtrak-coded Thruway bus departure, it makes sense to list it there, but it still looks out of place. That said, that demonstrates the limitations/challenges of that Solari Board. "Kutztown" was not an endpoint destination served by Amtrak when the board was installed. I'm sure you can get new destination flaps installed, but obviously they're not going to do that at this point. ﻿


Or you could use individual characters for the destination column and not have to worry about it.  This isn't really a limitation of the technology so much as a bean counting move.


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## Acela150 (Dec 11, 2018)

When Amtrak partnered with Bieber bus. That is when they started posting information.


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## Acela150 (Dec 11, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Or you could use individual characters for the destination column and not have to worry about it.  This isn't really a limitation of the technology so much as a bean counting move.


The only thing that isn't individual letters is the city pairs as well as the status of the train.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 11, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> When Amtrak partnered with Bieber bus. That is when they started posting information.


Um, okay.  

Perhaps that's correct. However, the Amtrak partnership with Martz Trailways pre-dates the Bieber partnership by two years (2015 vs. 2017). I don't recall seeing any Solari announcements for the Martz bus to Scranton, but it's entirely possibly I haven't happened to have been there at the right time of day. If the arrangement only started with Bieber, you have to wonder why Bieber gets that plug but not Martz.


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## cpotisch (Dec 11, 2018)

I thought that those things always just used individual letters? What is the point in using full words when you could have infinite possibilities just with letters?


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## VentureForth (Dec 11, 2018)

Wait a minute.....

https://kywnewsradio.radio.com/articles/news/amtrak-may-reconsider-departure-split-flap-schedule-board-30th-street-station


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## jis (Dec 11, 2018)

The Boston electronic board makes the requisite flipping sounds the last time I was there [emoji57]


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 11, 2018)

jis said:


> The Boston electronic board makes the requisite flipping sounds the last time I was there


Those replacement sounds always seem so fake.  Reminds me of the speaker based crossing bells.  A real physical bell has a wide range of frequencies that are distinctive and obvious, but the cheaper low maintenance speaker versions sound like an AM radio broadcast compressed into a low bit rate audio stream.  Loud enough to be annoying but not clear enough to be an obvious warning.  Worst of both worlds.  Whatever "audio engineer" invented speaker based crossings needs to be tarred and feathered.


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## railiner (Dec 11, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Those replacement sounds always seem so fake.  Reminds me of the speaker based crossing bells.  A real physical bell has a wide range of frequencies that are distinctive and obvious, but the cheaper low maintenance speaker versions sound like an AM radio broadcast compressed into a low bit rate audio stream.  Loud enough to be annoying but not clear enough to be an obvious warning.  Worst of both worlds.  Whatever "audio engineer" invented speaker based crossings needs to be tarred and feathered.


Yeah...next thing they'll do is have giant loudspeaker "horn's" on locomotive's, instead of air-horns....


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## Acela150 (Dec 11, 2018)

fairviewroad said:


> Um, okay.
> 
> Perhaps that's correct. However, the Amtrak partnership with Martz Trailways pre-dates the Bieber partnership by two years (2015 vs. 2017). I don't recall seeing any Solari announcements for the Martz bus to Scranton, but it's entirely possibly I haven't happened to have been there at the right time of day. If the arrangement only started with Bieber, you have to wonder why Bieber gets that plug but not Martz.


And those were put on the board as well.   Those Martz bus services are hit and miss.


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## Acela150 (Dec 11, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> Wait a minute.....
> 
> https://kywnewsradio.radio.com/articles/news/amtrak-may-reconsider-departure-split-flap-schedule-board-30th-street-station


My main problem is that he doesn't represent the area of 30th Street. While he comes close. It's not his district to be fighting for. 

Long run. It won't be saved. As much as I want it to be saved. 

The main reason for PIDS, which would be installed is for ADA compliance. And that trumps nostalgia.


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## gswager (Dec 11, 2018)

Penn Station has the electronic Solaris board.  It's on the far west side of New York City.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 12, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> My main problem is that he doesn't represent the area of 30th Street. While he comes close. It's not his district to be fighting for.
> 
> Long run. It won't be saved. As much as I want it to be saved.
> 
> The main reason for PIDS, which would be installed is for ADA compliance. And that trumps nostalgia.


Eh, I bet plenty of his constituents use 30th Street on a regular basis. It (the station) is a regional asset. Perfectly fine in my book for him to take an interest in it.

That said, I suspect you are correct about the Solari Board's ultimate fate.


----------



## John Bobinyec (Dec 12, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> The main reason for PIDS, which would be installed is for ADA compliance. And that trumps nostalgia.


How are the new PIDS, such as in NYP,  ADA compliant, whereas the current Solari board comes up short?

jb


----------



## cpotisch (Dec 12, 2018)

gswager said:


> Penn Station has the electronic Solaris board.  It's on the far west side of New York City.


Two things: Firstly, Penn Station is really just on the somewhat west side of Manhattan, not the far west side of NYC. (I know, I’m the worst)

Secondly, the electronic board used in NYP may be built by the same company, but the fact that is new and electronic means that you can’t really compare it at all to the flappy-flappy board in PHL. And yes, I did just call it a “flappy-flappy board”.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Dec 12, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> How are the new PIDS, such as in NYP,  ADA compliant, whereas the current Solari board comes up short?
> 
> jb


They have scrolling announcements that correspond with the information to assist the hearing impaired. The Solari board does not have any of those features.


----------



## Dutchrailnut (Dec 12, 2018)

Bottom line is Solari a Italian company is no longer making spare parts for them flappy flappy boards. They went full digital with TV screens yes they have programs imitation the Flappy Flappy boards.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> They have scrolling announcements that correspond with the information to assist the hearing impaired. The Solari board does not have any of those features.


Or you could simply place a monochromatic LED character scoreboard below the Solari board and scroll as many tone deaf security alerts as you please.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 12, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Or you could simply place a monochromatic LED character scoreboard below the Solari board and scroll as many tone deaf security alerts as you please.


Indeed....and there was talk of doing just that..particularly in NYP.  However, by the time you do all of that, find space to accommodate the new board, consider the cost of maintaining both systems, especially when you consider this:



Dutchrailnut said:


> Bottom line is Solari a Italian company is no longer making spare parts for them flappy flappy boards. They went full digital with TV screens yes they have programs imitation the Flappy Flappy boards.


Amtrak decided to just replace the boards with a new, modern system that also made its own robo announcements.


----------



## jis (Dec 12, 2018)

Why do American railfans have this obsession about preserving things in situ instead of in museums, with no regard for costs and other collateral consequences?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 12, 2018)

What does TRE have that looks like a Solari board but is not (when you first walk in the door)? It seems to do the same thing--flip and clack.



jis said:


> Why do American railfans have this obsession about preserving things in situ instead of in museums, with no regard for costs and other collateral consequences?


Perhaps because, compared to many countries, we have very little history and want to keep what we do have where it is? Also, I think Philly is particularly caught up in its history (although it's usually Colonial/American Revolution history) and would be more inclined to want to preserve the good parts of the past where they are.

I think now there's been a Philly Inquirer article on it and even an Action News short piece about it, the historic preservation people (not rail people--more general historic preservation) are finally aware of it and may get involved and make it a wider issue.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Dec 12, 2018)

jis said:


> Why do American railfans have this obsession about preserving things in situ instead of in museums, with no regard for costs and other collateral consequences?


I don't think this is just about railfans. In general, people like comfort and there is comfort in familiarity.  When I'm in NYP, people STILL look for the "big departure" board (that has been gone for quite some time ) as a landmark and reference. 

It is familiar to them.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 12, 2018)

jis said:


> Why do American railfans have this obsession about preserving things in situ instead of in museums, with no regard for costs and other collateral consequences?


Please quote the specific post that you feel went into obsessive "damn the costs" anti-logic.  I'll wait.


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## jis (Dec 12, 2018)

Meanwhile airports and highways march along modernizing, though not as fast as many wish they would, while passenger rail folks have to pick through their sparse crumbs to preserve stuff ... while service languishes. Oh well. I guess whatever floats ones boat.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Dec 12, 2018)

jis said:


> Meanwhile airports and highways march along modernizing, though not as fast as many wish they would, while passenger rail folks have to pick through their sparse crumbs to preserve stuff ... while service languishes. Oh well. I guess whatever floats ones boat.


Airports, airlines and roadways typically receive a higher priority when it comes to funding so that helps when it comes to modernization.


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## jis (Dec 12, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Please quote the specific post that you feel went into obsessive "damn the costs" anti-logic.  I'll wait.


You are welcome to wait for a long time, since I was just making a general observation, not based on any specific post. Of course my observation could be a bit over the top, but it is what it is.


----------



## jis (Dec 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Airports, airlines and roadways typically receive a higher priority when it comes to funding so that helps when it comes to modernization.


The issue that bugs me is if we start scarfing away money from an already meager pot to address things that are not as critical as ADA and service quality and safety, it makes the task of making rail passenger service attractive all that much harder. New riders that we hope to attract would not presumably be familiar with the setup with or without old relics anyway.


----------



## Dutchrailnut (Dec 12, 2018)

A US company in Philly makes the flappy boards (oat foundry) as someone pointed out, but problem would not be solved by buying from them.

https://www.oatfoundry.com/split-flap/

The old board needs replacement, replacing it with Oak foundry board would cost more than LED screen replacements and would be costing more because of labor cost.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 12, 2018)

jis said:


> You are welcome to wait for a long time, since I was just making a general observation, not based on any specific post. Of course my observation could be a bit over the top, but it is what it is.


Perhaps you would be so kind as to walk us through the logic and purpose of your persistent gaslighting.  Your repeated mislabeling of otherwise calm and casual discussions as if they were irrational screaming diatribes is far more interesting to me than the future fate of some train station schedule board.


----------



## gswager (Dec 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Two things: Firstly, Penn Station is really just on the somewhat west side of Manhattan, not the far west side of NYC. (I know, I’m the worst)


On other side of Hudson River in Newark.


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## cpotisch (Dec 12, 2018)

gswager said:


> On other side of Hudson River in Newark.


Well Newark Penn Station isn't in NYC at all...


----------



## NorthShore (Dec 13, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Well Newark Penn Station isn't in NYC at all...


But it is on the far west side of NYC!

(I suppose on the far east side would be London.)


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## NorthShore (Dec 13, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> What do you mean when you say you “didn’t get to witness it spinning”? Was it broken or there were there just no updates happening you were there or what?


I chose to walk outside, and around the station, to see that perspective, rather than be the geeky railfan staring at the board; uncertain if or when the flaps would turn.  Nor did it move while I was in line to reboard.

Glad I got to see it, though, before it is removed.  Was long on my railfan bucket list.


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## jis (Dec 13, 2018)

Very nice photos capturing the grandeur of the building up close!


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## CHamilton (Dec 13, 2018)

Clickety Clackety! Philly Rallies to Save its Train Station Flip Board

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/12/amtrak-philadelphia-30th-street-station-split-flap-display-board/578053/?utm_source=feed


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 13, 2018)

Now that the media (and perhaps the preservationists) are making this a "thing," let's see what happens. If they are successful in saving it, maybe we can learn some tips from how they go about it for our larger advocacy in trying to save things like LD routes?


----------



## cpotisch (Dec 13, 2018)

NorthShore said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Well Newark Penn Station isn't in NYC at all...
> ...


I may be missing something here, but a lot of stuff is west of NYC (arguably every place on the planet). When someone says that something is "on the far west side" of a city, that generally means that it is in that city. And if that doesn't mean that, how can something not far outside said city, such as Newark Penn, count as the "far" side? But forgive me if this is just an example of me sucking at semantics.


----------



## Acela150 (Dec 13, 2018)

I passed by 30th Street today on the bus back home. I was amazed to see that the cleaning project is progressing well and the 29th Street side of the station is finally free of obstructions.


----------



## NorthShore (Dec 13, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I may be missing something here, but a lot of stuff is west of NYC (arguably every place on the planet). When someone says that something is "on the far west side" of a city, that generally means that it is in that city. And if that doesn't mean that, how can something not far outside said city, such as Newark Penn, count as the "far" side? But forgive me if this is just an example of me sucking at semantics.


Other side of the Hudson = far side of the city. (Since it's, in fact, outside and beyond the boundardies, west of the river.)

(As does other side of the ocean.)

OP seems to have been making a nuanced joke, sort of like using the expression "wrong side of the tracks."


----------



## NorthShore (Dec 13, 2018)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Now that the media (and perhaps the preservationists) are making this a "thing," let's see what happens. If they are successful in saving it, maybe we can learn some tips from how they go about it for our larger advocacy in trying to save things like LD routes?


Well, obviously, it's Gritty!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 13, 2018)

NorthShore said:


> Well, obviously, it's Gritty!


----------



## Anderson (Dec 13, 2018)

jis said:


> Meanwhile airports and highways march along modernizing, though not as fast as many wish they would, while passenger rail folks have to pick through their sparse crumbs to preserve stuff ... while service languishes. Oh well. I guess whatever floats ones boat.


First of all, on the highway front, the number of "troubled" bridges in need of replacement comes to mind.  With the condition of the highway trust fund, in many cases we're "modernizing" at the rate needed to avoid physical collapse.

On the airport front: Yes, I do love how airports are "modernizing" by removing moving walkways to try and drive me into their shopping mall (which is, in turn, propped up by the fact that I have to build in all sorts of extra time to accommodate dubious-value security measures that might hold me up).  That's _exactly_ what I need when I got screwed in the security line and am now running for my gate!  Maybe they could extend the terminal another thirty gates so I get my daily exercise en route, or physically force me to wind my way through more stores on my way out of security [1]?

Considering what happened when Amtrak decided to foist "contemporary" dining options on folks out of the blue (or "modernized" their way out of a first-class lounge car on the _Starlight_...), I don't think it's surprising that we're more than a little hesitant.  It doesn't help that, as often as not, we've seen airline service "improve" away several inches of legroom, most on-board meal service (so I can pay extra to grab an overpriced meal in the terminal!), etc.

If I'm being honest, that "languishing" service of 5-10 years ago is something that I would be willing to take for the next fifty.  I wouldn't mind having more, but in general I'm not inclined to gamble what I have for what _might_ come to pass.  But I'll also admit that in most respects I'd happily take the future out back and shoot it sight unseen.

And let's not forget that half of the time when someone tries to re-dress a facility in a "modern" way, the result is a butt-ugly eldritch mess that should result in the architecht having to pay us all a fine for inflicting their "innovative" design on us.

[1] LHR and BNE are pretty bad offenders on this front.


----------



## Acela150 (Jan 2, 2019)

Solari Board is coming down tonight per reliable sources.


----------



## jis (Jan 2, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Solari Board is coming down tonight per reliable sources.


That is confirmed from multiple sources now. Apparently a lot of the new cabling and brackets for the replacement are already in place too.


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## cpotisch (Jan 2, 2019)

Yep, they were just talking about it on WNYC.


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## Acela150 (Jan 2, 2019)

jis said:


> That is confirmed from multiple sources now. Apparently a lot of the new cabling and brackets for the replacement are already in place too.


I was at PHL on Sunday and stood right by the board. I didn't really pay attention to it other then the fact that it was working.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 4, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Solari Board is coming down tonight per reliable sources.


Any update on this? Has someone been through PHL in the past two days? I can't find any confirmation of this actually happening.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 4, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> Any update on this? Has someone been through PHL in the past two days? I can't find any confirmation of this actually happening.


I’ve seen pics on FB of workers doing something with it.


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## Acela150 (Jan 4, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> Any update on this? Has someone been through PHL in the past two days? I can't find any confirmation of this actually happening.


If I didn't have to work yesterday I would have went down to take a look at them taking it down. I don't have to be downtown until next week. So I'll swing by then.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 8, 2019)

http://www.philly.com/news/flipboard-th-street-station-philadelphia-brendan-boyle-20190107.html


Could a Philly company and a push from Congress save 30th Street Station’s iconic flipboard?


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## cpotisch (Jan 8, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> http://www.philly.com/news/flipboard-th-street-station-philadelphia-brendan-boyle-20190107.html
> 
> 
> Could a Philly company and a push from Congress save 30th Street Station’s iconic flipboard?


Haven't they already started taking the board down? I could see that possibly working if it was still up there in one piece, but I just don't think they'll change their mind at this point. :unsure:


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 8, 2019)

It’s still up. They may have been doing maintenance on it the other day.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 9, 2019)

Was in Philly yesterday.  the Solari board is still there.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 10, 2019)

It's becoming the Mark Twain of railroad station infrastructure.


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## Acela150 (Jan 15, 2019)

Stopped by 30th Street today after a Doctor's appointment in the city. Board was still up. And the main info booth is closed, a temporary one has been erected in front of the main booth.


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## jebr (Jan 24, 2019)

The Solari Board is being removed as I post.


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## Acela150 (Jan 24, 2019)

I’m hoping it lasts until 1015am tomorrow. I’m on 2160 tomorrow and hoping to get some last photos and videos.


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## Acela150 (Jan 24, 2019)

What it feels like....


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## Acela150 (Jan 25, 2019)

Still up as of 1020 Friday


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 25, 2019)

This is big news in the Philly area today (overshadowing Trump vs. Pelosi).   The media is reporting that they started to take it down on Thursday (fake news?).   Its going to be displayed at a train museum, with the hopes it might return back to 30th Street if Amtrak can find an alternate use for it (to display today's soup?).


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## Acela150 (Jan 27, 2019)

Board was removed last night. (1/26)


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## cpotisch (Jan 27, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Board was removed last night. (1/26)


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## iplaybass (Jan 27, 2019)

I remember when it was new, and at least it's being preserved. Next time I'm in town I'll see its replacement. Nostalgia isn't overrated, but it can't last forever.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 27, 2019)

Glad I got to see it a few times while it was there. I feel like Amtrak is really missing what makes train travel special. Nobody buys a ticket on Amtrak to see a solari board (ok.. well someone might have at one point! ).  But it's the little things like the old solari boards clacking away, the old benches in LA Union station,  the flowers on the dining car table, the conductors punching tickets, the old style announcements. These are some of the things that make train travel unique.  Now Amtrak is not a museum or nostalgia ride, they need to keep up with the times and adapt when necessary... but since some of the appeal of train travel is the unique charms of train travel.. I think amtrak is missing something by letting all of these charms just go away. 

As a side note... I know it's going to the Railroad Museum of PA... but wouldn't it be cool to install the thing across the street at Strasburg Railroad and let it click clack away for each train departure!?  Not exactly historically accurate for a small town "East Strasburg" depot, but fun none the less! ha


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## Acela150 (Jan 27, 2019)

https://6abc.com/travel/iconic-30th-street-station-flip-board-removed/5108205/


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 27, 2019)

How is a simple sign, not ADA compliant?


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## fairviewroad (Jan 27, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> As a side note... I know it's going to the Railroad Museum of PA... but wouldn't it be cool to install the thing across the street at Strasburg Railroad and let it click clack away for each train departure!?  Not exactly historically accurate for a small town "East Strasburg" depot, but fun none the less! ha


Ah, but there would be depressingly few train departures at the Strasburg RR compared to PHL. I would think it would be cool/possible for the museum folks to program it to continue to display train status at 30th Street. That would ensure ongoing action.  (But leave out the Thruway buses, for Pete's sake).


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 28, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Glad I got to see it a few times while it was there. I feel like Amtrak is really missing what makes train travel special. Nobody buys a ticket on Amtrak to see a solari board (ok.. well someone might have at one point! ).  But it's the little things like the old solari boards clacking away, the old benches in LA Union station,  the flowers on the dining car table, the conductors punching tickets, the old style announcements. These are some of the things that make train travel unique.  Now Amtrak is not a museum or nostalgia ride, they need to keep up with the times and adapt when necessary... but since some of the appeal of train travel is the unique charms of train travel.. I think amtrak is missing something by letting all of these charms just go away.
> 
> As a side note... I know it's going to the Railroad Museum of PA... but wouldn't it be cool to install the thing across the street at Strasburg Railroad and let it click clack away for each train departure!?  Not exactly historically accurate for a small town "East Strasburg" depot, but fun none the less! ha


Couldn’t agree more. Train travel is expensive and slow, so if they strip away all the amenities and service associated with it, just what is the point in it? Anyone who can fly, will fly.


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## jis (Jan 28, 2019)

Unless rail service is able to provide compelling core transportation value not met by any other means with a set of basic travel services minus all the bells and whistles and nostalgia, it has no hope of long term survival, in this cut throat world pf competition. The bells and whistles and nostalgia are good additions, but not the core value of the mode. Of course the social/political environment makes a huge difference, in terms of what is considered to be value and what is not. But somehow I suspect there are not enough people who care for nostalgia enough to keep the entire mode going.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 28, 2019)

jis said:


> Unless rail service is able to provide compelling core transportation value not met by any other means with a set of basic travel services minus all the bells and whistles and nostalgia, it has no hope of long term survival, in this cut throat world pf competition. The bells and whistles and nostalgia are good additions, but not the core value of the mode. Of course the social/political environment makes a huge difference, in terms of what is considered to be value and what is not. But somehow I suspect there are not enough people who care for nostalgia enough to keep the entire mode going.


Well Rail service certainly does do that in Philadelphia.


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 28, 2019)

jis said:


> Unless rail service is able to provide compelling core transportation value not met by any other means with a set of basic travel services minus all the bells and whistles and nostalgia, it has no hope of long term survival, in this cut throat world pf competition. The bells and whistles and nostalgia are good additions, but not the core value of the mode. Of course the social/political environment makes a huge difference, in terms of what is considered to be value and what is not. But somehow I suspect there are not enough people who care for nostalgia enough to keep the entire mode going.


There’s a big difference between wanting nostalgia, and wanting a nice travel experience that makes it a valid alternative to flying or driving. We all know Amtrak really can’t compete when it comes to concrete stuff like speed and cost, so why not make the most of the benefits it can offer? Someone taking a long, luxurious vacation likely won’t really care about Amtrak being slow or a bit pricier than flying, _if_ it’s worth the time onboard. The only way train travel can stay at all relevant is by making the overall experience superior.

Still, this is starting to digress from the Solari Board...


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 28, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How is a simple sign, not ADA compliant?


Why does a sand dune need a wheelchair ramp?  Why does a 3' swimming pool need a crane seat?  Why does an adults only business need elementary school sized urinals?  Mandatory ADA compliance is becoming laughably absurd at this point.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Jan 28, 2019)

Regarding the sand dune, there are beach/sand wheelchairs available at beaches.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 28, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Why does a sand dune need a wheelchair ramp?  Why does a 3' swimming pool need a crane seat?  Why does an adults only business need elementary school sized urinals?  Mandatory ADA compliance is becoming laughably absurd at thi﻿s point.﻿


While all of these are good questions.... I'm trying to figure out what is not ADA compliant with a Solari board? I have decent vision,  but if anything I have worse trouble reading a screen (which can have issues regarding brightness etc) than a simple printed sign.   Just trying to figure out what I have missed.


----------



## Ryan (Jan 28, 2019)

Visual messaging for the hearing impaired, IIRC. 

You can rig up a monitor to go alongside to display other messages, but now you are maintaining two systems. 

I think it’s less an ADA and more the added cost of maintaining an additional legacy system alongside Amtrak’s ADA compliant system that killed the board.


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## DCAKen (Jan 28, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Why does a sand dune need a wheelchair ramp?  Why does a 3' swimming pool need a crane seat?  Why does an adults only business need elementary school sized urinals?  Mandatory ADA compliance is becoming laughably absurd at this point.


So anyone who cannot get into the pool on their own is left high and dry (so to speak).

Not all adults are tall.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 28, 2019)

DCAKen said:


> So anyone who cannot get into the pool on their own is left high and dry (so to speak). Not all adults are tall.


In hundreds of hotel visits I've never once seen anyone even attempt to use those ridiculous motorized hoisting baskets.  This kind of misplaced concern is how we ended up with pointless wading pools that never go any deeper than a few measly feet.  Because we have to put all other considerations aside in order to cater to people who are incapable of swimming their way to safety and/or fail to possess the fundamental instinct of self preservation.  The very people who probably shouldn't be anywhere near a pool in the first place.


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 28, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> In﻿﻿ hundreds of hotel visits I've never once seen anyone even﻿ attempt t﻿o use﻿ those ridiculous motori﻿zed hoisting baskets.﻿


Well I 100% have seen people use them. In fact, many times. Can you explain to me how having a machine for getting the disabled in and out of the water is at all a bad thing, for you as a customer?

EDIT: You know, I’m looking over your post more and it really is pretty ableist and insulting.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Because﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿ we have to put all other considerations aside in order to cater to people who are incapable of swimming their way to safety and/or fail to possess the fundamental instinct of self preservation. The very people who probably shouldn't be anywhere near a pool in the first place.﻿


First off, people can have difficulty getting into a pool, but still be able to swim.

Secondly, when you say that they may “fail to possess the fundamental instinct of self preservation”, you seem to be implying that it is that person’s fault for being disabled and that they somehow inherently lack the idea of self preservation. Either way, it’s nonsense. Having a lift in a pool doesn’t hurt you at all, yet you’re convinced they shouldn’t exist, and aren’t advocating for the idea that the disabled are somehow incapable and undeserving of using a pool. If something happens to you someday, and you end up requiring special assistance to do fun activities, I wonder if you’ll be singing the same tune.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Well I 100% have seen people use them. In fact, many times. Can you explain to me how having a machine for getting the disabled in and out of the water is at all a bad thing, for you as a customer?


I don't see the wading chair as a bad thing.  I see it as a pointless thing.  I guess it's there to wiggle your hands and feet in the water?  You can already do that sitting over the edge of the pool.  You could even do that sitting in a bath tub.  If for some reason you cannot perform such an action without a harness then maybe pools aren't for you.  Why does the "deep end" of the pool have to be so shallow that even a child could stand up and simply walk out?  When I was a kid we kept the non-swimmers out of the deep end whereas today we simply removed the deep end altogether.  That's not the culture I grew up in and that's not the culture I want to leave behind.


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 28, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't see the wading chair as a bad thing.  I see it as a pointless thing.  I guess it's there to wiggle your hands and feet in the water?  You can already do that sitting over the edge of the pool.  You could even do that sitting in a bath tub.  If for some reason you cannot perform such an action without a harness then maybe pools aren't for you.  Why does the "deep end" of the pool have to be so shallow that even a child could stand up and simply walk out?  When I was a kid we kept the non-swimmers out of the deep end whereas today we simply removed the deep end altogether.  That's not the culture I grew up in and that's not the culture I want to leave behind.


Where and how have pools ever gotten shallower due to accessibility concerns? Seriously, how are you pinning that on the ADA?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 28, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Visual messaging for the hearing impaired, IIRC.
> 
> You can rig up a monitor to go alongside to display other messages, but now you are maintaining two systems.
> 
> I think it’s less an ADA and more the added cost of maintaining an additional legacy system alongside Amtrak’s ADA compliant system that killed the board.


Ahh.... so that way someone watching the sign can see when an announcement is being made? That makes sense.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Where and how have pools ever gotten shallower due to accessibility concerns? Seriously, how are you pinning that on the ADA?


I never said that shallow pools (or the removal of diving boards or today's lukewarm "hot tubs") were mandated by the ADA. 

What I said was...



Devil's Advocate said:


> This kind of misplaced concern is how we ended up with pointless wading pools that never go any deeper than a few measly feet.  Because we have to put all other considerations aside in order to cater to people who are incapable of swimming their way to safety and/or fail to possess the fundamental instinct of self preservation.  The very people who probably shouldn't be anywhere near a pool in the first place.


I can see how it looks like I was blaming the ADA but it's more about nanny state protections and a pervasive failure in our legal system to hold people (or their parents/guardians) accountable for understanding basic physics and their own limitations.  The motorized wading chairs are (partly) ADA mandated, but it's true that they don't really impact me in any negative manner.  I just never seen them used and wondered why this of all things was deemed such a critical need.  It looks more like a bureaucratic bullet point than anything genuinely helpful.  Based on what I've seen most of them look to be ignored and out of service anyway.



cpotisch said:


> If something happens to you someday, and you end up requiring special assistance to do fun activities, I wonder if you’ll be singing the same tune. ﻿


You mean like if I was no longer able to dive and swim in the deep end?  That's how this whole rant got started in the first place.


----------



## Acela150 (Jan 28, 2019)

Back on topic. Upon arriving into 30th Street this evening the replacement is starting to be installed.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 28, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Back on topic. Upon arriving into 30th Street this evening the replacement is starting to be installed. View attachment 12313


For all the comments on this thread about the sanctity of that Solari Board (and trust me, I'll miss it too), I think an even bigger downer to the aesthetics there is those gargantuan banners that block the columns and walls. Yecch. I know that it's probably a badly needed revenue source...but still...


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## PRR 60 (Jan 28, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> For all the comments on this thread about the sanctity of that Solari Board (and trust me, I'll miss it too), I think an even bigger downer to the aesthetics there is those gargantuan banners that block the columns and walls. Yecch. I know that it's probably a badly needed revenue source...but still...


 To some extent, the banners are covering some rehab construction work.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 28, 2019)

Saying that Amtrak isn't competitive out of 30th St Sta. is a little silly, as we're talking about the NEC, for which Amtrak has a major market share of the non tauto intercity traffic.  It's even competitive with single occupancy driving.  Consider that per mile cost to own and operate a car is about 60 cents a mile.  BAL to PHL is about 95 miles or 190 miles round trip.  That's  $114 plus $16 for tolls on I 95 for a $130 total.  If your destination is in Center city. you have to add parking, too. Northeast Regional coach fare starts at about $45 each way.  of course if you get higher bucket fares or splurge on BC or the Acela, it's a lot more.

The ride itself, station to station, takes 1:10 as opposed to a 2 hour drive, assuming no slow traffic. Even adding the 20 minutes it takes me to ride from home to BAL and the fact that its probably a good idea to get to the station 5 or 10 minutes before train time, it's still speed competitive, too.

BAL - NYP is even more competitive.  A 400 mile round trip  or $240 driving expense plus $60+ in tolls plus NYC parking vs. low bucket round trip fare of $160.  and a train ride of 2:40 each way vs. 4 hours in the car, plus driving around NYC looking for a place to park.


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## Acela150 (Jan 28, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> To some extent, the banners are covering some rehab construction work.


Agreed. But these "banners" have been in place for years. Granted different ads have been in place, but they've been there for some time. 



MARC Rider said:


> Saying that Amtrak isn't competitive out of 30th St Sta. is a little silly, as we're talking about the NEC, for which Amtrak has a major market share of the non tauto intercity traffic.  It's even competitive with single occupancy driving.  Consider that per mile cost to own and operate a car is about 60 cents a mile.  BAL to PHL is about 95 miles or 190 miles round trip.  That's  $114 plus $16 for tolls on I 95 for a $130 total.  If your destination is in Center city. you have to add parking, too. Northeast Regional coach fare starts at about $45 each way.  of course if you get higher bucket fares or splurge on BC or the Acela, it's a lot more.
> 
> The ride itself, station to station, takes 1:10 as opposed to a 2 hour drive, assuming no slow traffic. Even adding the 20 minutes it takes me to ride from home to BAL and the fact that its probably a good idea to get to the station 5 or 10 minutes before train time, it's still speed competitive, too.
> 
> BAL - NYP is even more competitive.  A 400 mile round trip  or $240 driving expense plus $60+ in tolls plus NYC parking vs. low bucket round trip fare of $160.  and a train ride of 2:40 each way vs. 4 hours in the car, plus driving around NYC looking for a place to park.


Keystone trains are consistently full to NYP out of PHL. 660 on Saturdays constantly sells out. A 9:23am departure arriving a tad before 11am.


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## tricia (Jan 29, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't see the wading chair as a bad thing.  I see it as a pointless thing.  I guess it's there to wiggle your hands and feet in the water?  You can already do that sitting over the edge of the pool.  You could even do that sitting in a bath tub.  If for some reason you cannot perform such an action without a harness then maybe pools aren't for you.  Why does the "deep end" of the pool have to be so shallow that even a child could stand up and simply walk out?  When I was a kid we kept the non-swimmers out of the deep end whereas today we simply removed the deep end altogether.  That's not the culture I grew up in and that's not the culture I want to leave behind.


I know it's off-topic, but I wanted to clarify one thing: Lift chairs like this are really helpful for folks who no longer have the muscle strength needed to haul themselves OUT of the pool. I used to seek out hotels with such a lift when traveling with my elderly and increasingly weak father. Swimming (in a nice deep pool   where water helps support you) is a delight for someone with atrophy and balance problems that make other kinds of exercise or recreation difficult or impossible.


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## keelhauled (Feb 5, 2019)

Apparently Amtrak has required whoever redevelops 30th Street to utilize the board in some way.  In other news, the new display is scheduled for installation by March.


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## Acela150 (Feb 10, 2019)

Two photos from it's last full day of service.


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## The Journalist (Feb 10, 2019)

What did "-R" and "-U" mean?


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 10, 2019)

The Journalist said:


> What did "-R" and "-U" mean?


Reserved/ Unreserved. It was probably being updated when this picture was taken.


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## cpotisch (Feb 10, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Reserved/ Unreserved. It was probably being updated when this picture was taken.


How come the U/R part is clearly updated out of sync with the rest of the board?


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 10, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> How come the U/R part is clearly updated out of sync with the rest of the board?


You'd have to ask someone from Solar or someone that knows the intricacies of its operation.


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## jis (Feb 11, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> There’s a big difference between wanting nostalgia, and wanting a nice travel experience that makes it a valid alternative to flying or driving. We all know Amtrak really can’t compete when it comes to concrete stuff like speed and cost, so why not make the most of the benefits it can offer? Someone taking a long, luxurious vacation likely won’t really care about Amtrak being slow or a bit pricier than flying, _if_ it’s worth the time onboard. The only way train travel can stay at all relevant is by making the overall experience superior.
> 
> Still, this is starting to digress from the Solari Board...


Let me know how much ridership declined in Philly as a result of the removal of the Solari Board [emoji849]


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## cpotisch (Feb 11, 2019)

jis said:


> Let me know how much ridership declined in Philly as a result of the removal of the Solari Board


You know that I don't think ridership declined due to the loss of the Solari Board. I was responding to C-Z's point that the things that make train travel special are going away. And it should have been clear that I wasn't specifically talking about the Solari Board, since I finished the post with the following:



> Still, this is starting to digress from the Solari Board...


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 11, 2019)

jis said:


> Let me know how much ridership declined in Philly as a result of the removal of the Solari Board


How much has ridership declined because of the loss of flowers in the diner? Or ppc cars? Or the pillows in coach? 

The solari boards were just one of those little things that made train travel unique and charming.  

Eventually, if you cut all of the charming things out, I think ridership will decline.

i know I have started flying more than I ever thought I would... it wasn’t the Solaris board that made me fly more, but it was the loss of several of the little things and the inconsistency of employees.


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## Acela150 (Feb 11, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How much has ridership declined because of the loss of flowers in the diner? Or ppc cars? Or the pillows in coach?
> The solari boards were just one of those little things that made train travel unique and charming.
> Eventually, if you cut all of the charming things out, I think ridership will decline.
> i know I have started flying more than I ever thought I would... it wasn’t the Solaris board that made me fly more, but it was the loss of several of the little things and the inconsistency of employees.


So let me get this straight? You think that ridership at the 3rd busiest Amtrak Station in the nation will drop because of the removal of the Solari Board? Yeah that makes sense. [emoji849]

Ridership didn’t decline because they removed flowers from the dining cars. That’s just insane if you think that is a legit reason why ridership declined. A legitimate reason is that the train was annulled for 3 days, etc. NOT the removal of flowers.


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## KnightRail (Feb 11, 2019)

The first monitor was installed on the west side of the new main PIDS board(where the Solari board was). That monitor is one of nine in a 3x3 grid that will be on each side for a total of 18 screens that will make up the two main displays. Very similar to the look of NYP’s displays, except the boards are staying back to back unlike in NYP where they went on opposing ends of the concourse. PIDS: Passenger Information Display System is the modern term Amtrak uses in place of Solari.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 11, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> So let me get this straight? You think that ridership at the 3rd busiest Amtrak Station in the nation will drop because of the removal of the Solari Board? Yeah that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one said that ridership declined specifically because of Solari board, flowers or even OTP.  What they are trying to say is these things become part of a cumulative effect. In other words, the death of thousand cuts.

For some, this is step towards modernization and updating the look and travel experience while for others, it is another brick in the wall.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 11, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> So let me get this straight? You think that ridership at the 3rd busiest Amtrak Station in the nation will drop because of the removal of the Solari Board? Yeah that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How did you get that from what I wrote? Of course I don’t think it will affect ridership. Nor did the flowers.  

None of these little things directly affect ridership. It’s all these little things that help make train travel charming.  You take all of them away, eventually you have a product that is much less unique, and less special.  If the product is less special it may eventually lead to fewer riders. (Not talking about the commuter traffic of course). 

I still miss the conductors punching tickets,  but I also love the convenience of having my ticket on my iPhone.


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## Acela150 (Feb 11, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How much has ridership declined because of the loss of flowers in the diner? Or ppc cars? Or the pillows in coach?
> 
> The solari boards were just one of those little things that made train travel unique and charming.
> 
> ...






crescent-zephyr said:


> How did you get that from what I wrote? Of course I don’t think it will affect ridership. Nor did the flowers.
> 
> None of these little things directly affect ridership.


To me you're implying that ridership has dropped because of the removal of the flowers, PPC, etc.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 11, 2019)

Quite the opposite. I don’t think those things individually result in loss of ridership. (Although the ppc actually might have?).


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 12, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> To me you're implying that ridership has dropped because of the removal of the flowers, PPC, etc.


It's difficult for me to quantify how much each individual change and reduction affects my travel but over time my enthusiasm has continued to fall as more and more amenities are diluted or abandoned altogether.  Where I live Amtrak is not fast or cheap or plentiful.  It's slow, expensive, and infrequent.  I previously rode Amtrak long distance service several times every single year but these days I ride a lot less than I used to.  I guess if you mainly ride commuter trains then it's hard to comprehend what motivates and annoys long distance sleeper passengers.  Just like how I have little knowledge of what motivates or annoys commuter passengers since there are no such services where I live.


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## cpotisch (Feb 12, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> To me you're implying that ridership has dropped because of the removal of the flowers, PPC, etc.


He said:



crescent-zephyr said:


> Eventually, if you cut all of the charming things out, I think ridership will decline.


That is VERY different from what you think he meant. Crescent is not saying that ridership has dropped from any particular minor cut, but rather that if train travel ends up losing all the little (and big) things that makes it special, ridership likely will decline. As DA and Thirdrail said, this is death by a thousand cuts which likely can have a cumulative effect that will cause ridership to decline. There is going to be a breaking point for many riders; the straw that breaks the camel's back.


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## Acela150 (Feb 12, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> He said:
> 
> That is VERY different from what you think he meant. Crescent is not saying that ridership has dropped from any particular minor cut, but rather that if train travel ends up losing all the little (and big) things that makes it special, ridership likely will decline. As DA and Thirdrail said, this is death by a thousand cuts which likely can have a cumulative effect that will cause ridership to decline. There is going to be a breaking point for many riders; the straw that breaks the camel's back.


You also missed the very first sentence of the post.


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## Acela150 (Feb 14, 2019)

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/02/14/new-video-board-installed-at-30th-street-station-replacing-beloved-flipboard/


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## Acela150 (Feb 21, 2019)

Stopped by 30th Street today after a Doctors appointment. The board is up and ready to go. I had a brief conversation with an Amtrak Police Officer who said the latest says Sunday will be the day.


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## Acela150 (Feb 23, 2019)

A post on TO.com shows that they tested the new board today. Should be in service tomorrow. I'm curious to know if it'll also bring the automated announcements that sound god awful. 

Regarding the automated announcements... That's what Amtrak has left out of the whole Solari Board Removal announcements. Is that Amtrak Station Personnel will no longer be making announcements. That's another part of the charm 30th Street has.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 23, 2019)

I knew the solari board was gone from nyp (it wasn’t a split flat board but it was solari) and was prepared for it. I wasn’t prepared for losing the wonderful lady announcer in nyp. I loved hearing her announcements.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 24, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Is that Amtrak Station Personnel will no longer be making announcements. That's another part of the charm 30th Street has.


Meh, those announcements are always so hard to understand anyhow. It's definitely part of the ambiance, the blurry voice echoing around the giant echo chamber that is 30th St, but it certainly wasn't (for me) a worthwhile way to receive information. Not that a computerized voice might be any better...but it might.


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## Acela150 (Feb 25, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> Meh, those announcements are always so hard to understand anyhow. It's definitely part of the ambiance, the blurry voice echoing around the giant echo chamber that is 30th St, but it certainly wasn't (for me) a worthwhile way to receive information. Not that a computerized voice might be any better...but it might.


I disagree. The PA in 30th Street is much much better then it was years ago. Many station agents that announce trains have clear and understandable voices. Although, there is one lady who I could live with out.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 25, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> I disagree. The PA in 30th Street is much much better then it was years ago. Many station agents that announce trains have clear and understandable voices. Although, there is one lady who I could live with out.


OK, I'll grant you that about 75% of my 30th Station usage took place in the 90's when I lived in Philly, and back then the PA was (IMO) useless. Now I'm only there once or twice a year...not enough to notice a difference. I'll take your word that it's better....and if it is, that's a good thing for everyone.


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## Acela150 (Feb 25, 2019)

fairviewroad said:


> OK, I'll grant you that about 75% of my 30th Station usage took place in the 90's when I lived in Philly, and back then the PA was (IMO) useless. Now I'm only there once or twice a year...not enough to notice a difference. I'll take your word that it's better....and if it is, that's a good thing for everyone.


Keep in mind that 30th Street is my home station. So I would know.   But you're correct the PA used to be dreadful. Amtrak finally put the money into it though.


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## Acela150 (Feb 26, 2019)

As of 815 on the morning of the 26th the new board is not active.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 28, 2019)

The new board was fired up at 3 AM this morning (2/28/19). This from Philly.com.




> A month after Amtrak removed the black-and-white, analog split-flap information board from 30th Street Station, the railroad moved into the digital age Thursday morning.  After testing overnight, the railroad booted up its large new digital sign atop the information desk in the cavernous station at 3 a.m., well in advance of the morning rush hour, Amtrak spokeswoman Beth Toll said.


 The story and some photos can be found HERE.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 28, 2019)

It looks hideous there--like some hostile alien from Star Trek landed in a beautiful historic building :angry: .

Nobody in the photo seems to want to look at it, either :unsure: !


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It looks hideous there--like some hostile alien from Star Trek landed in a beautiful historic building :angry: .
> 
> Nobody in the photo seems to want to look at it, either :unsure: !


Indeed. Just looks totally out of place.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 28, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It looks hideous there--like some hostile alien from Star Trek landed in a beautiful historic building :angry: .
> 
> Nobody in the photo seems to want to look at it, either :unsure: !


Well, there is always Trenton!

(ducks for cover)


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## Acela150 (Feb 28, 2019)

Photo credit to “Poppa Joe” on Facebook.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 28, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It looks hideous there--like some hostile alien from Star Trek landed in a beautiful historic building :angry: .
> 
> Nobody in the photo seems to want to look at it, either :unsure: !






cpotisch said:


> Indeed. Just looks totally out of place.


Since it is really nothing more than a very large TV being driven by a computer, there is no reason why it could not look just like a Solari Board, compete with animation and sound.    If you would like a very good example of what I mean, please see http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/solari_relay.pl?data=PHL

Too bad there wasn't some Historic Commission that covers 30th Street Station, that could use their God-like super powers to force things like this onto Amtrak.


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## trainman74 (Feb 28, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It looks hideous there--like some hostile alien from Star Trek landed in a beautiful historic building :angry: .
> 
> Nobody in the photo seems to want to look at it, either :unsure: !


I think I know what your answer to the question "what would you like the power to do?" is!


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## MARC Rider (Feb 28, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Indeed. Just looks totally out of place.


Um, the old Solari board was not part of 30th St. Station when the place opened in the 1930s.  Train status was displayed on a chalkboard, with manually written notices.  They had employees whose jobs were to constantly write, erase, and rewrite train status information.  They were doing this into the 1970s. I remember it, and was amazed at the chalkboard penmanship of some of those guys.  I wonder if there were rail fans back then complaining about the newfangled and out of place Solari board.


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## cpotisch (Feb 28, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed. Just looks totally out of place.
> ...


Another chalkboard would definitely fit better there than that TV.


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## Acela150 (Feb 28, 2019)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Too bad there wasn't some Historic Commission that covers 30th Street Station, that could use their God-like super powers to force things like this onto Amtrak.


Again, ADA trumps nostalgia every time.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 28, 2019)

Acela150 said:


> Again, ADA trumps nostalgia every time.


Nothing that was suggested would be an ada problem.  Changing the appearance of the digital board to blend in with the historic surroundings is a smart idea.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 1, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, there is always Trenton!
> 
> (ducks for cover)


It might actually improve Trenton. :giggle:


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## jacorbett70 (Mar 2, 2019)

A chalkboard is still at the Amtrak level of 30th St. hidden around the staircase to the SEPTA regional rail area. Sometimes it had crazy stuff written on it.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 2, 2019)

jacorbett70 said:


> A chalkboard is still at the Amtrak level of 30th St. hidden around the staircase to the SEPTA regional rail area. Sometimes it had crazy stuff written on it.


I don't think those messages are ADA compliant. ^_^


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 3, 2019)

jacorbett70 said:


> A chalkboard is still at the Amtrak level of 30th St. hidden around the staircase to the SEPTA regional rail area. Sometimes it had crazy stuff written on it.
> 
> View attachment 12705


I am surprised that "graffiti" teens even know what chalk is, or how it works, let alone carry around a piece.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 9, 2020)

Can anyone point me to the official law/regulation that governs railroad signage for passengers pursuant to ADA?

One of the given reasons for removing the various solari boards was that a blind person needed to hear the information because they can't see it. I think the new signs which have been put up in place of the solari boards make audible announcements of the "messages" but perhaps not the arrival and departure information. Can anyone clarify which audible information the new signs provide as well?

Thanks,
jb


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## MARC Rider (Mar 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I don't think those messages are ADA compliant. ^_^


Yeah, but now that your pet can also ride Amtrak, the message "meow" could be vey significant to the feline passengers.


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