# Capitol Limited & Lake Shore Limited Delays Summer/Fall 2014



## NYP2NFL01

The 8/23/14 CL was over 4 hrs late arriving into TOL. Any idea what happened?


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## Green Maned Lion

That's not really really late by Amtrak standards. I would assume basic congestion and mishandling.


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## tricia

Green Maned Lion said:


> That's not really really late by Amtrak standards. I would assume basic congestion and mishandling.


This is so sad.


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## afigg

NYP2NFL01 said:


> The 8/23/14 CL was over 4 hrs late arriving into TOL. Any idea what happened?


Both the eastbound #30 and westbound #29 got slammed between Cleveland and Chicago as has been the case for months due to NS track work. Looks both CLs that departed on Aug. 23 had a worse delay than usual of 4+ hours. With #29(8/23) arriving at CHI 5 hours and 45 minutes late, with the equipment turnaround, #30 (8/24) ended up departing CHI 3 hours and 49 minutes late at 10:29 PM CT.

The CL and LSL have had epic delays in the past few days. The sooner NS can wrap up at least some of the track work, the better.


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## NYP2NFL01

Ouch! Well, hopefully things will clear up by Wednesday night. I am booked on the CL from TOL to WAS, with connections to NYP.

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## Acela150

tricia said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not really really late by Amtrak standards. I would assume basic congestion and mishandling.
> 
> 
> 
> This is so sad.
Click to expand...

What's sad is their are multiple topics on the LSL and CL and their poor OTP as of recent.



NYP2NFL01 said:


> Ouch! Well, hopefully things will clear up by Wednesday night. I am booked on the CL from TOL to WAS, with connections to NYP.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


You have nothing to worry about. Trains run to NYP every hour.


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## reppin_the_847

The Lakeshore Limited trains have also been extremely delayed recently. I've been monitoring the statuses on the Lakeshore's and the Capitol Ltd trains since I'm slated to travel on a Lakeshore run from TOL to NYP with a very early Friday departure this coming long weekend.

The Sunday evening Lakeshore out of Chicago is only now about to arrive into NYC! Apparently it's because the equipment arrived into Chicago very late from its previous trip back from NYP. Same thing apparently happened to the Capitol.


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## afigg

reppin_the_847 said:


> The Lakeshore Limited trains have also been extremely delayed recently. I've been monitoring the statuses on the Lakeshore's and the Capitol Ltd trains since I'm slated to travel on a Lakeshore run from TOL to NYP with a very early Friday departure this coming long weekend.
> 
> The Sunday evening Lakeshore out of Chicago is only now about to arrive into NYC! Apparently it's because the equipment arrived into Chicago very late from its previous trip back from NYP. Same thing apparently happened to the Capitol.


There is a service alert for track work between Amsterdam and Utica from August 24 to September 17. Odd they post this one about possible delays of up to 45 minutes when the LSL has seen much longer delays on both CSX and NS this summer. Good luck on at least departing TOL somewhere close to on schedule. Just be prepared to get to NYP late.


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## reppin_the_847

afigg said:


> reppin_the_847 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Lakeshore Limited trains have also been extremely delayed recently. I've been monitoring the statuses on the Lakeshore's and the Capitol Ltd trains since I'm slated to travel on a Lakeshore run from TOL to NYP with a very early Friday departure this coming long weekend.
> 
> The Sunday evening Lakeshore out of Chicago is only now about to arrive into NYC! Apparently it's because the equipment arrived into Chicago very late from its previous trip back from NYP. Same thing apparently happened to the Capitol.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a service alert for track work between Amsterdam and Utica from August 24 to September 17. Odd they post this one about possible delays of up to 45 minutes when the LSL has seen much longer delays on both CSX and NS this summer. Good luck on at least departing TOL somewhere close to on schedule. Just be prepared to get to NYP late.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up. Yeah I considered taking the Thursday night Capitol Limited out of TOL as an alternative (with a transfer in WAS) in order to ultimately get to NYP. The thing is, I'm traveling with my significant other and we'd prefer to avoid the transfer if we can. Plus, the Capitol Limited has also been running about 4 hours late a bunch of times this week. I know that the Northeast Regionals are fairly frequent, but the frequency does seem to drop off a bit in the evenings. Furthermore, it still takes that close to 3.5 hour travel time to get up to NYP from WAS which basically may only get us into NYP around the same time as the Lakeshore Limited ultimately. I'm not sure if we have any better options. We'll be driving in from Michigan to Toledo (Kalamazoo with a stop to relax with relatives in Metro Detroit, before taking the final 1 hour drive into Toledo). Fortunately most of our plans in NYC revolve around the following day and not that Friday night arrival. It certainly helps that we are going to be in a roommette for this trip.

Ironically for our return trip to TOL, a delayed arrival in the morning would actually be preferable so that we can enjoy some breakfast on board.


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## NYP2NFL01

Last night's CL (#30) is horrendously late, with an 11:18 estimated arrival into WAS. What in the world happened?

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## afigg

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Last night's CL (#30) is horrendously late, with an 11:18 estimated arrival into WAS. What in the world happened?


LSL #48 (8/26) is also running very late, down 5 hours and 52 minutes departing Utica, still enroute as I write this. According to a post on trainorders, there was major congestion on the NS line in Ohio with westbound trains backed up all the way to Alliance. The westbound CL #29 (8/26) got to CHI over 6 hours late, so #30 will likely be late departing tonight. The good news is that #49 (8/26) arrived at CHI only 52 minutes late.

Amtrak issued a news release yesterday on the extension of the summer track work Michigan service schedule to October 1. In it, there is this:



> These temporary schedules also allow Norfolk Southern Railway (NS) a greater opportunity to continue their work to reduce freight train congestion that has been interfering with Amtrak trains in Northern Indiana. Both Amtrak and the Michigan Department of Transportation have asked NS to take action to improve the daily dispatching of ten state-sponsored Amtrak trains -- and four more Amtrak national network services -- on NS tracks between Chicago and Porter, Ind.


So if the Englewood Flyover and Indiana Gateway projects had not taken so long to get started on construction, perhaps the delays for the CL, LSL, and Michigan trains would not have been as bad this summer?


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## guest

30 (8/26) is almost eleven hours late now. I wonder how many people bailed out at Pittsburgh.


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## AmtrakBlue

guest said:


> 30 (8/26) is almost eleven hours late now. I wonder how many people bailed out at Pittsburgh.


At least 2 AUers were on #30(26). One was busituted from Pittsburgh and the other had to stay on. This was based on their destination station and connections apparently.


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## DivMiler

AmtrakBlue said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 30 (8/26) is almost eleven hours late now. I wonder how many people bailed out at Pittsburgh.
> 
> 
> 
> At least 2 AUers were on #30(26). One was busituted from Pittsburgh and the other had to stay on. This was based on their destination station and connections apparently.
Click to expand...

I was on this train. We finally arrived 12.5 hours late into Washington (WAS). We were told not to get off on Pittsburgh (I was headed to Baltimore). Why were some WAS-connecting passengers advised to get off, and some told to stay on? I assume it is faster to get to WAS from Pittsburgh by road instead of railroad.


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## NYP2NFL01

As of now (1:53 AM), Train #30 (Capitol LTD), out of TOL, is scheduled to arrive at 2:54 AM, 3.25 hrs late! I changed our tickets from Train 30 to Train 48 LSL), which is only 15 minutes late into TOL. Since my final destination is NYP, Train 48 makes more sense.

What I find so puzzling is that both trains make the same stops from Chicago to Toledo except 48 stops at Bryan, OH and 30 doesn't. So, I wonder why 30 is so late while 48 is nearly on time?

Go figure!

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## AmtrakBlue

DivMiler said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 30 (8/26) is almost eleven hours late now. I wonder how many people bailed out at Pittsburgh.
> 
> 
> 
> At least 2 AUers were on #30(26). One was busituted from Pittsburgh and the other had to stay on. This was based on their destination station and connections apparently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was on this train. We finally arrived 12.5 hours late into Washington (WAS). We were told not to get off on Pittsburgh (I was headed to Baltimore). Why were some WAS-connecting passengers advised to get off, and some told to stay on? I assume it is faster to get to WAS from Pittsburgh by road instead of railroad.
Click to expand...

My guess is that those connecting to nb regionals were told to stay on the train since the regionals run about every hour. Though it looks like you guys got to DC too late even for the regionals.  The others were connecting to LD trains and maybe the less frequent sb "regionals".


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## tommylicious

12+ hour delay = train to Crazytown. What was the reason for this one?


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## Railroad Bill

Wonder where they stopped to get some food for supper? Glad we made it home Tuesday morning with only a 1.5 hr delay.

And hope this thing is all over by Gathering time. What a mess.


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## afigg

NYP2NFL01 said:


> As of now (1:53 AM), Train #30 (Capitol LTD), out of TOL, is scheduled to arrive at 2:54 AM, 3.25 hrs late! I changed our tickets from Train 30 to Train 48 LSL), which is only 15 minutes late into TOL. Since my final destination is NYP, Train 48 makes more sense.
> 
> What I find so puzzling is that both trains make the same stops from Chicago to Toledo except 48 stops at Bryan, OH and 30 doesn't. So, I wonder why 30 is so late while 48 is nearly on time?


CL #30(8/27) departed CHI 2 hours and 2 minutes late at 8:42 PM, so it got off to a late start. LSL #48(8/27) departed CHI on-time and is now down 1 hour and 35 minutes at Erie, PA; which is not that bad for the LSL considering.

The late departure of #30 was probably due to the 6 hours and 23 minutes late arrival of #29 at 3:08 PM CT on Aug. 27. Both the LSL and CL trainsets make same day turnarounds at CHI. The CL is supposed to arrive at 8:45 AM, the trainset gets cleaned and serviced, and depart CHI at 6:40 PM. The LSL has a larger turnaround window; scheduled to arrive at 9:45 AM, trainset is serviced and departs CHI at 9:30 PM. With #29 arriving over 6 hours late, they had to rush the servicing and turnaround to send the trainset east as CL #30 two hours late. #30 (8/27) may have also been held for a late arriving western LD or connecting corridor train, but I have not checked to see if any arrived late at CHI yesterday.

On the NYP and WAS ends of the LSL and CL routes, the trainsets are serviced overnight, so there is a much larger turnaround window to make up for a really delayed arrival and get back on schedule. Or swap out equipment for the LSL at Sunnyside yards in Queens.


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## afigg

tommylicious said:


> 12+ hour delay = train to Crazytown. What was the reason for this one?


Don't know why CL #30(8/26) ended up arriving at WAS a whopping 12 hours and 22 minutes late. It is supposed to be a 17.5 hour trip. OK, so #30 encountered severe delays on NS from CHI to Alliance OH, departing Alliance 7 hours and 43 minutes late. But then it lost another 4 hour and 40 minutes by the time it got to WAS. Were there engine problems?

Status map report for #30(8/26) epic delay trip:



Code:


* Train 30 of 08/26/2014.
* Capitol Limited
* +---------------- Station code
* |    +----------- Schedule Arrival Day 
* |    |  +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* |    |  |     +----- Schedule Departure Day
* |    |  |     |  +-- Schedule Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     +------- Actual Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     |     +- Comments
* V    V  V     V  V     V     V     V
* CHI  *  *     1  640P  *     645P  Departed:  5 minutes late.
* SOB  *  *     1  909P  *     1013P Departed:  1 hour and 4 minutes late.
* EKH  *  *     1  929P  *     1115P Departed:  1 hour and 46 minutes late.
* WTI  *  *     1  1023P *     1213A Departed:  1 hour and 50 minutes late.
* TOL  1  1139P 1  1149P 128A  139A  Departed:  1 hour and 50 minutes late.
* SKY  *  *     2  1240A *     240A  Departed:  2 hours late.
* ELY  *  *     2  115A  *     531A  Departed:  4 hours and 16 minutes late.
* CLE  2  145A  2  154A  835A  847A  Departed:  6 hours and 53 minutes late.
* ALC  *  *     2  305A  *     1048A Departed:  7 hours and 43 minutes late.
* PGH  2  505A  2  520A  250P  313P  Departed:  9 hours and 53 minutes late.
* COV  *  *     2  659A  *     552P  Departed:  10 hours and 53 minutes late.
* CUM  2  919A  2  931A  930P  940P  Departed:  12 hours and 9 minutes late.
* MRB  *  *     2  1100A *     1116P Departed:  12 hours and 16 minutes late.
* HFY  *  *     2  1125A *     1144P Departed:  12 hours and 19 minutes late.
* RKV  *  *     2  1210P *     108A  Departed:  12 hours and 58 minutes late.
* WAS  2  110P  *  *     132A  *     Arrived:  12 hours and 22 minutes late.


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## NYP2NFL01

Thank you afigg for the detailed explanation I'm on LSL 49 (8/28) with a current ETA into NYP of 6:27 PM, just four minutes late. CL 30 (8/27) is running 4+ hrs late into WAS.

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## tommylicious

afigg where do you get that nice summary report?


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## afigg

tommylicious said:


> afigg where do you get that nice summary report?


Amtrak Status Maps. It shows the last station check-in for every Amtrak train currently running. Click on a train marker to get the summary for the trip so far. For trains that have completed their trip, click on the Status File Archives link and then select the train, train #. and departure date.

For a neat summary list of the on-time performance of a train over a period or months, try Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database.


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## tommylicious

great thank you afigg!


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## NJCoastExp

I unfortunately was on that 30(26). Extreme congestion between ELY and CLE due to multiple NS trains outlawing. Then TOL-PGH crew outlawed and had to wait for new crew. The big chunk lost before CUM was due to CSX congestion on Sand Patch. We passed at least 2 coal trains but to do that first had to wait for at least 4 WB trains. I wound up along about 40 other people going to south portion of NEC cities on 190. I know we stopped in Abeerdeen and Metropark in addition to regular stops. Yeah I was glad because I was able to get home 3 hrs earlier than "planned". There were busses for people connecting south of DC, Pennsylvanian stops to PAO, and for people going north of NYP. People with destinations BWI to NYP were on the train all the way. Although AFAIK the DC busses got there too late to make connections anyway (definetly did not make 19)


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## tommylicious

NJ very sorry to hear of your ordeal hope at least you didn't have a tight schedule and so enjoyed the scenery. Also thank you for posting the information. How were the crew, food & scenery btw?


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## jis

Passenger railfan's blue eyed boy Norfolk Southern is having a phenomenal meltdown on its portion of the water level route this summer. Add to that CSX's usual ineptitude and that completes the picture for the LSL and CL.

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## Steve4031

Misty was on 30 too. Was connecting on a 19 to atl iirc. She was put on a bus going to atl.


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## afigg

jis said:


> Passenger railfan's blue eyed boy Norfolk Southern is having a phenomenal meltdown on its portion of the water level route this summer. Add to that CSX's usual ineptitude and that completes the picture for the LSL and CL.


Well, we will see if the CLs and LSLs departing in both directions on Thursday, August 28 have a better trip. Westbound #29 and #49 have both gotten off to reasonably good starts. However, both #30 and #48 departed CHI late, so they are already in the hole for their next gauntlet run on NS.


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## neroden

I'm really hoping that the NS trackwork (which is currently disrupting service) actually helps service when it's done.

The Indiana Gateway project (ARRA-funded triple-tracking and switches done by NS) should hopefully be done soon, though I'm not sure when (it started really late).

Also, Englewood Flyover looks like it's going to be finished *early* -- Metra was promising "end of 2014", but it looks like the civil engineering is practically finished and the tracks are already being put in, so I'm going to guess it'll be done by October. Thanks to audiofyl on YouTube for regular ride-by reports.



The Empire Line is only going to get worse for a while (construction at Rochester, Schenectady, and Albany is going to be ongoing all next year -- and CSX has made no plans to improve things on the rest of the line, either). But maybe the Chicago-Cleveland route will recover by the end of the year.


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## Bob Dylan

Looks like yesterdays (8/28)Caps and LSLs are starting to have OTPs rivaling those of the EB!! 4-7 Hours Late and not out of Ohio yet! As jis said, the NS is really gumming up the works! Bet their dispatchers are having tough going on the consoles!


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## afigg

neroden said:


> I'm really hoping that the NS trackwork (which is currently disrupting service) actually helps service when it's done.
> 
> The Indiana Gateway project (ARRA-funded triple-tracking and switches done by NS) should hopefully be done soon, though I'm not sure when (it started really late).
> 
> Also, Englewood Flyover looks like it's going to be finished *early* -- Metra was promising "end of 2014", but it looks like the civil engineering is practically finished and the tracks are already being put in, so I'm going to guess it'll be done by October. Thanks to audiofyl on YouTube for regular ride-by reports.


The Indiana Gateway only officially started construction a few months ago. The $71 million project, if it has not been revised or down scoped, has 4 cross-overs and 4 additional track segments to install. (Project diagram that is still available on-line but it is at least several years old). It takes time to spend $71 million on track work, so i would expect the components of the IN Gateway project to get done in stages through 2015, and maybe 2016. But I have not seen any announcements or current documents on the projected schedule. The Englewood Flyover will help when it opens, but the benefit will be limited if NS is still messed up from IN to OH.


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## afigg

jimhudson said:


> Looks like yesterdays (8/28)Caps and LSLs are starting to have OTPs rivaling those of the EB!! 4-7 Hours Late and not out of Ohio yet! As jis said, the NS is really gumming up the works! Bet their dispatchers are having tough going on the consoles!


Yes, another nasty day for the LSL and CL on the NS tracks. Looks like the westbound CL #29 (8/28) is running right behind the #49 LSL with #29 almost 5 hours late at Waterloo IN. The eastbound #30 (8/28) is 7 hours and 36 minutes late departing Alliance; hopefully it can avoid adding more hours of delays enroute to WAS.

Meanwhile the eastbound Cardinal #50 is only 26 minutes late departing White Sulpher Springs.


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## jis

afigg said:


> Meanwhile the eastbound Cardinal #50 is only 26 minutes late departing White Sulpher Springs.


Yeah, but it still has quite a bit of BBRR to negotiate. So keep fingers crossed.


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## benale

I remember when I used to ride 30 into DC from Martinsburg WVa and back the same day. 30 got into Martinsburg at 11AM, arrived in DC before 1 and 29 left at 4:05.back in Martinsburg at 5:45, Living in the East I would ride just to get on a Superliner.

Unfortunately, that trip is all but impossible anymore. Most of the time these days 30 arrives in DC after 29 leaves. Wonder how much longer these massive delays will last? Hopefully I can do that short run once again


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## afigg

The meltdown of the CL and LSL, especially eastbound, continues on NS between CHI and Cleveland & Alliance OH. After the 12+ hours late #30 at WAS, CL #30(8/28) departed CHI 3 hours late on Thursday likely because the westbound #29 (8/27) arrived at CHI 4 hours and 27 minutes late. #30 did better than the day before, but still arrived at WAS 8 hours and 46 minutes late. LSL #48(8/28) arrived at NYP 5 hours and 27 minutes late.

Amtrak is in for another repeat for the eastbound trains which are still enroute as I write this with #30(8/29) departing ALC 6 hours and 52 minutes late and #48(8/29) departing ELY 5 hours and 45 minutes late. CL and LSL passengers are not off to a good start for their Labor weekend travel. Does this get better soon? There is still no Amtrak service alert on severe delays for the CL and LSL either.

The Status Maps summary for #30(8/28) is below. It really got delayed between SKY and ELY:



Code:


* Train 30 of 08/28/2014.
* Capitol Limited
* +---------------- Station code
* |    +----------- Schedule Arrival Day 
* |    |  +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* |    |  |     +----- Schedule Departure Day
* |    |  |     |  +-- Schedule Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     +------- Actual Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     |     +- Comments
* V    V  V     V  V     V     V     V
* CHI  *  *     1  640P  *     839P  Departed:  1 hour and 59 minutes late.
* SOB  *  *     1  909P  *     1139P Departed:  2 hours and 30 minutes late.
* EKH  *  *     1  929P  *     1209A Departed:  2 hours and 40 minutes late.
* WTI  *  *     1  1023P *     133A  Departed:  3 hours and 10 minutes late.
* TOL  1  1139P 1  1149P 300A  318A  Departed:  3 hours and 29 minutes late.
* SKY  *  *     2  1240A *     415A  Departed:  3 hours and 35 minutes late.
* ELY  *  *     2  115A  *     831A  Departed:  7 hours and 16 minutes late.
* CLE  2  145A  2  154A  905A  913A  Departed:  7 hours and 19 minutes late.
* ALC  *  *     2  305A  *     1041A Departed:  7 hours and 36 minutes late.
* PGH  2  505A  2  520A  1243P 1259P Departed:  7 hours and 39 minutes late.
* COV  *  *     2  659A  *     252P  Departed:  7 hours and 53 minutes late.
* CUM  2  919A  2  931A  541P  549P  Departed:  8 hours and 18 minutes late.
* MRB  *  *     2  1100A *     806P  Departed:  9 hours and 6 minutes late.
* HFY  *  *     2  1125A *     836P  Departed:  9 hours and 11 minutes late.
* RKV  *  *     2  1210P *     928P  Departed:  9 hours and 18 minutes late.
* WAS  2  110P  *  *     956P  *     Arrived:  8 hours and 46 minutes late.


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## Richard McCormkick

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Last night's CL (#30) is horrendously late, with an 11:18 estimated arrival into WAS. What in the world happened?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


That means it arrived more than 10 hours late!( due to arrive 1:10 P.M.)It seems like the problem happens in South Bend-Elkhart-Toledo area.Almost certainly due to freight traffic congestion in that area due to single track that runs for about 18 miles. Trains .com reports as many as 5 freight trains looking to move over that stretch of track along with Amtrak passenger trains.Seems to me to be a case of too many trains and not enough track to handle them! This also affects the LSL as well as the CL.


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## Richard McCormkick

With all these incredible delays on both the LSL and CL into and out of CHI,WAS and NYP I sure don't feel comfortable relying on either the CL or the LSL to make my connection in CHI to the 421 TE through SAS continuing on to TUS. 421 TE, which only runs 3 days/week, scheduled to depart CHI at 1:45 P.M. Sundays seems like an unlikely connection unless some improvements are made between now and late October when my trip is scheduled. I may have to modify my original plans and avoid both the CL and LSL routes entirely. Seems like the 19 Crescent to NOL has much better on time record. This would require an overnight stay in NOL(never a bad thing!) and then catch 1 SL leaving 9:00 A.M. next morning to TUS. This route would also prevent me from being on sleeper that would have to be cut away from TE and coupled onto the SL consist at SAS in the wee hours of the morning.. Anybody with any better suggestions or ideas I am open to any and all of them.


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## tommylicious

Capitol performance truly pitiful


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## Ringfinder

NYP2NFL01 said:


> Ouch! Well, hopefully things will clear up by Wednesday night. I am booked on the CL from TOL to WAS, with connections to NYP.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


My wife and I took the CL from Toledo to Chicago and then on west on the Empire Builder a couple of weeks ago and arrived in Seattle only a half hour late.

On our return trip today on the Empire Builder we arrived in Chicago 3 hours late from Seattle, lots of train traffic in North Dakota!

Some folks missed there connections all together and Amtrak would not put them up for the night to wait for another train the next day, that part is SAD!


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## Richard McCormkick

And the delays continue even now as I am writing this reply. Train 48 LSL(8/29) which left CHI Friday night just recently left Albany,NY at 10:25 P.M. It was due to depart at 3:45 P.M. and arrive NY at 6:23 P.M. This train is now 6 hours,40 minutes late and since Albany is about a 3 hour ride to NY,assuming no further delays enroute, it should arrive in Penn Station around 1:30 A.M. or so! It is just incredible that Amtrak does not make any mention of these intolerable delays on their website under the heading of service alerts.They have apparently decided not to acknowledge these delays to their riders. I have now decided to modify my original reservations for my upcoming trip from NYP to Tucson via Texas Eagle and try to avoid connections to and from CHI at all costs,particularly on the CL and LSL Unfortunately for me that reduces my options to the 3 days/week Cardinal,which uses a more southerly route from NYP to CHI via Cincinnati/indianapolis or take the Crescent from NYP to NOL and connect with SL the next morning in NOL. The 3 day/week Cardinal is inconvenient and runs on a much longer time schedule( about 28 hours vs 19 for LSL) but has been more reliable with better ontime performance.Taking the Crescent to the Big Easy requires an overnight stay in NOL( never a bad thing!)connecting with a 9 A.M. departure for Sunset Limited the next morning. Of course this adds extra expense to my trip but at least assures me that I will not miss the 3 day/week SL.

The LSL has missed the connection with the TE in CHI 15 times in the last 28 days! Plus,on 7 other occasions,it arrived with less than 30 minutes to spare to make that connection and in some cases only 15 minutes.This must be costing Amtrak tons of money in buses,hotel costs,etc to deal with this problem, of course the damage done to customer satisfaction can only serve to drive more people away from Amtrak long distance trains if this is allowed to continue for much longer.


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## neroden

It is really bad. CSX and NS should be paying for this in tort damages, but for some reason get away without doing so.


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## Bob Dylan

Richard McCormkick said:


> I may have to modify my original plans and avoid both the CL and LSL routes entirely. Seems like the 19 Crescent to NOL has much better on time record. This would require an overnight stay in NOL(never a bad thing!) and then catch 1 SL leaving 9:00 A.M. next morning to TUS. This route would also prevent me from being on sleeper that would have to be cut away from TE and coupled onto the SL consist at SAS in the wee hours of the morning.. Anybody with any better suggestions or ideas I am open to any and all of them.


Things should be better by October between WAS, NYP and CHI! The plan to ride the Crescent to NOL is a good one as you say, but of course you have to stay on your dime in NOL!
The LSL and Cap Connections in CHI are guaranteed so Amtrak would be responsible for getting you to TUS, if you missed the 421 they may even put you on the SWC to LAX, then #2 to TUS if it was on a day #2 was scheduled to operate!

You may want to look @ the Cardinal #51 ( 3days a week also) if it gets to CHI on a #421 day, its OTP had been much better into CHI than #29 or #49/#449!


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## OlympianHiawatha

Richard McCormkick said:


> The LSL has missed the connection with the TE in CHI 15 times in the last 28 days! Plus,on 7 other occasions,it arrived with less than 30 minutes to spare to make that connection and in some cases only 15 minutes.This must be costing Amtrak tons of money in buses,hotel costs,etc to deal with this problem, of course the damage done to customer satisfaction can only serve to drive more people away from Amtrak long distance trains if this is allowed to continue for much longer.


In my case just under 4 weeks ago my _*LSL*_ arrived 15 minutes *AFTER* the _*Texas Eagle*_ was to arrive but they held the _*Eagle*_ for us. That meant a fast transfer across the tracks and _*NO Giordono's*_!


----------



## NYP2NFL01

LSL #48 (8/27) arrived at NYP just 1 hour, 19 minutes late Thursday evening 8/28. I am so glad I switched my ticket at TOL from CL #30 (8/27), which didn't get to WAS until well after 6 PM. I really wanted to ride a Superliner. That's why I chose the CL in the first place. I've never been on a Superliner before!

One of the dining car staff, on her way home to Delaware, said she was so glad to get into NYP "on time". She was so used to getting in at 10, 11 PM or midnight!

All I know is if Amtrak can get this tardiness under control, I'll never be able to convince my wife into a cross-country trip via LSL/CZ!!!!

One other thing, if you are on the Thruway bus from MI, be advised that one of the drivers will tell you (quite convincingly at first) that the bus is bound for Cincinnati, OH after leaving Detroit instead of Toledo. He nearly started a riot before admitting he was joking to soften the blow that Train #30 was late. He actually stopped at a Subway sandwich shop near the Toledo station (yuck!) so we could get something to eat while waiting.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## afigg

Today, Sunday August 31, was a better day for the CL and LSL arriving closer to on-time in both directions. CL #29(8/30) arrived at CHI only 1 hour and 4 minutes late; #30(8/30) arrived at WAS 1 hour and 13 minutes late. Presumably lighter freight traffic over the holiday weekend. However #50 Cardinal (8/30) ran into a long delay in Indiana and, even though Status Maps shows a service disruption, it was shown making its way eastbound - 4 to 5? hours late - on the Amtrak Track a Train map.

But now both #29 and #30(8/31) are showing as service disruptions even though the trains are shown on the Track a Train map. According to a post on trainorders, there are track work disruptions:



> 29(31) is detouring thru Michigan due to NS track work between Porter and South Bend. Will pick up P42 #126 at Toledo.
> 
> 30(31) terminating in PGH due to CSX bridge work just east of Cumberland. 29(1) will originate in PGH.


----------



## afigg

Two odd things about the re-route of CL #29(31) through MI. 1) The LSL #49(8/31) was not re-routed and is currently slogging through the normal NS route and is currently close to 2.5 hours late at Waterloo, IN. 2) CL #29 was shown to be in Michigan south of Detroit on the Track a Train map a hour or so ago, but is no longer shown.


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## tommylicious

Today's 29 is showing cancelled. Why?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> Today's 29 is showing cancelled. Why?


See post #46 above

There's a bus (sold out) from WAS to PGH.


----------



## lo2e

My sister was on 49(31) and she tells me she was held just outside of TOL for about 30-45 minutes this morning, I presume while they did the engine switch described in the quote box in post 46. It figures, she was getting off in TOL to catch the Thruway bus to LNS, which of course had to wait for 49 to get in.


----------



## Richard McCormick

jimhudson said:


> Richard McCormkick said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may have to modify my original plans and avoid both the CL and LSL routes entirely. Seems like the 19 Crescent to NOL has much better on time record. This would require an overnight stay in NOL(never a bad thing!) and then catch 1 SL leaving 9:00 A.M. next morning to TUS. This route would also prevent me from being on sleeper that would have to be cut away from TE and coupled onto the SL consist at SAS in the wee hours of the morning.. Anybody with any better suggestions or ideas I am open to any and all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Things should be better by October between WAS, NYP and CHI! The plan to ride the Crescent to NOL is a good one as you say, but of course you have to stay on your dime in NOL!
> The LSL and Cap Connections in CHI are guaranteed so Amtrak would be responsible for getting you to TUS, if you missed the 421 they may even put you on the SWC to LAX, then #2 to TUS if it was on a day #2 was scheduled to operate!
> 
> You may want to look @ the Cardinal #51 ( 3days a week also) if it gets to CHI on a #421 day, its OTP had been much better into CHI than #29 or #49/#449!
Click to expand...

Looking at the Cardinal route map it appears that it's more southerly route seems to spare it from the freight traffic nightmare that seems to exist in the CLE-SOB corridor and which plagues both the 29 CL and 49 LSL on a daily basis.That route which takes it up through Cincinnati/Indianapolis to CHI has certainly had a much better OTP than either 29/CL or 49/LSL. For period from 8/5-9/1 the 51 Cardinal has averaged 82 minutes delays compared to 29/CL with 152 minutes and 49/LSL with a whopping 221 minutes.The largest delay for 29 was 383 minutes on 8/27 and for 49 it was a whopping 529 minutes on 8/22;both trains missed connection with both TE and SWC on those days leaving passengers bound for West coast stranded in CHI with no alternatives until the next day's trains. As you said, things may improve by late October but I need to make reservation now. The 51/ Cardinal works for my schedule as it leaves NYP on Friday 6:45 A.M. arriving CHI 10 A.M on Saturday.With 59/CONO not departing CHI until 8:05 P.M. it gives me some time for a quick tour around CHI before heading down to NOL. 59/CONO arrives NOL 3:32 P.M. giving me time to settle into my overnight hotel.Haven't been to NOL since the summer just before Katrina so it should be interesting to see how much has been done to rebuild NOL in the last decade or so. Looking forward to some chicory coffee and beignets at Cafe Du Monde and a dinner of crawfish with red beans and rice and maybe some good Jazz before hitting the sack for the night. Finally, head over to Union Station to catch 1/SL departing 9:00 A.M. Monday morning for my final destination Tucson/AZ arriving 6:45 P.M. Tuesday night. With 10 hour daytime layover in CHI and overnight stay in NOL this trip may seem a bit long but now being retired I have all the time that I need.

I have only one concern with this route that I am considering.The 51/ Cardinal is sold out of all sleeping accommodations,including roomettes,most likely due to it's limited service 3 day/week schedule.That means the entire 28 hour trip has to be done in coach class. I am not sure how well I will be able to handle sleeping in a reclining seat as opposed to a roomette.Since 51/Cardinal departs NYP it can't use Superliner coaches which I understand to be much more comfortable than the older Amfleet II coaches used on 51/Cardinal as well as 49/LSL.Also, many other forum posts have discussed poor restroom conditions on Amfleet coaches (I believe 2/coach car for approx 60 people) vs. Superliner coaches( 4-5/coach car for about 74 people).It would seem to me that the Superliner coaches,with a much better ratio of restrooms to total people and slightly roomier seats would have an advantage over the older Amfleet coaches.Of course,wanting to travel on a Superliner coach would mean having to forgo both the 51/Cardinal and/or 49 LSL in favor of 29 CL. Would appreciate any insight or feedback on either of these concerns before I finalize travel plans.Also, thanks for reading my rather lengthy post.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Of course riding in Coach on an overnite LD trip is never as good as a Room! Since the Card's Rooms are Sold Out I'd look @ the Crescent #19 to NOL as you said!( you can check daily on Cancelations by using amsnag.net and if a Room opens up in the Card you can change your rez but traditionally the Card is High Bucket!)

But wanting to be in Superliner and have a Roomette I'd say the Cap #29 from WAS- CHI should work out by Oct even in Coach.,( traditionally the Cap has had good OTP except when trackwork or weather happens!)

As was said, these are guaranteed connections so Amtrak will get you to TUS by hook or crook!


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## Richard McCormick

First of all,let me say thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post and offering your valuable insight. Since the Card is,as you said,High Bucket even when rooms are available($520 for a roomette) it looks like my options are down to two choices. The 29/CL( hoping for better OTP late October) or the 19/Crescent. Opting for the Crescent eliminates the CHI leg of the trip with its 10+ hour daytime layover( which I was going to use for a quick tour of the Windy City) in favor of a more direct route from NYP to NOL with no transfers or layovers. it also cuts an entire day of travel time from the schedule as it leaves from NYP on Saturday @ 2:15 P.M. arriving NOL Sunday night at 7:32 P.M. The 29/CL first requires a late Friday morning departure on NE Regional to WAS before boarding 29/CL departing @ 4:05 P.M. and arriving CHi at 8:45 A.M. with daytime layover in CHI until 59/CONO boards Saturday night @ 8:05 P.M. with Sunday afternoon arrival in NOL at 3;32 P.M. Tough choice to make as I like the direct trip on 19/Crescent and the 1 day travel savings it provides I might just prefer the 29/CL-59/CONO combo since it allows me a chance to see some of CHI( never been there before) during daytime layover.Plus the 19/Crescent sleeper is also High Bucket that night($498) while sleepers in both 29/CL and 59/CONO combined would be only $352 total for both trains( 158 for 29/CL and 194 for 59/CONO).

Thanks again for your advice and i will post my experience on this trip when I get back in early November.


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## Bob Dylan

That's a good price for the #29/#59 Combo Trip in a Roomete! Look forward to your trip report and I'm envious, NOL is a great layover spot!


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## afigg

Over the past several days, the delays between CHI and CLE for the CL and LSL have not been as bad. There have been delays, but on the order of less than an hour added going between CHI and CLE on NS. Perhaps some of the track work has been completed? Or just luck of the draw in getting pass freight traffic?


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## neroden

I'm guessing the NS track work is starting to wrap up. They wouldn't have scheduled trackwork too late in the year. Here in the north, we get freezing weather, and before that, we get leaves, and before that, we get torrential rain and mud, none of which are good conditions to lay track in. I'm not sure exactly what their cut-off date for planned work is, but I'd expect them to be finished with major work by the end of September, because working conditions will suck worse and worse from then on.


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## afigg

Wrote too soon. Both the CL and LSL encountered major delays last night and into today. The pattern the past few days was that the eastbound CL and LSL in the evening were not too badly delayed, but the westbound CL and LSL going from CLE to CHI in the morning got hit with hours of delay. The CL has also been encountering long delays between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA which is likely due to the CSX tunnel work that caused a bustitution from WAS to PGH.

However, on trainorders, GenePoon posted the text of an announcement issued by NS to its employees. NS is asking for engineers and conductors from other divisions to make a temporary transfer to the northern region to cover the staffing shortages. The temporary transfer are to report on Monday, September 8 and will get paid a total of $15K extra for the temporary assignment.

So staffing shortages have also been part of the reasons for the severe delays from Chicago to Alliance OH.

edit: edited for source attribution.


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## Bob Dylan

Boy, a 15K Bonus! Bet lots of Hoggers Volunteer for this one!

Maybe BNSF should do this on the Hi- Line to help get that mess cleared up some!


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## neroden

afigg said:


> The CL has also been encountering long delays between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA which is likely due to the CSX tunnel work that caused a bustitution from WAS to PGH.


That's *still* going on? The CSX tunnel work?
Well,that explains why CL & LSL reschedule, as recommended in the PIPs, haven't happened yet. The statement in the PIP was that none of this could happen until CSX was done with its extensive tunnel enlargement works, because CSX needed to work through the time when a later CL would run.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The CL has also been encountering long delays between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA which is likely due to the CSX tunnel work that caused a bustitution from WAS to PGH.
> 
> 
> 
> That's *still* going on? The CSX tunnel work?
> Well,that explains why CL & LSL reschedule, as recommended in the PIPs, haven't happened yet. The statement in the PIP was that none of this could happen until CSX was done with its extensive tunnel enlargement works, because CSX needed to work through the time when a later CL would run.
Click to expand...

The busitution earlier this week for #29 from WAS to PGH was for 1 day which was attributed in the service alert to tunnel work. It may have been routine tunnel maintenance work, not part of a clearance enlargement project.

The big clearance and capacity improvement project in front of CSX is the Virginia Avenue Tunnel in DC which has been in the local news a lot recently because the NIMBYs are doing what they can to try to block or stall the project. Even with CSX offering the homeowners closest to the tunnel $500 a month for the projected worse case 42 month construction period. The Virginia Ave tunnel rebuild project doesn't affect the CL, although it will have secondary benefits to VRE and Amtrak as the rebuilt tunnel will be double tracked, easing a congestion point that delays northbound freights south of DC which in turn can delay VRE & Amtrak trains. But the Virginia Ave tunnel project is not relevant to CL delays,

It was a bad day for the westbound CL and LSL. LSL #49(9/05) was 1 hour and 15 minutes late departing CLE and arrived at CHI 4 hours and 35 minutes late. CL #29(9/05) had a really bad trip, departing CLE 4 hours and 15 minutes late and arrived at CHI 7 hours and 4 minutes late. Odds are CL #30 will be late departing CHI tonight.


----------



## PaulM

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The CL has also been encountering long delays between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA which is likely due to the CSX tunnel work that caused a bustitution from WAS to PGH.
> 
> 
> 
> That's *still* going on? The CSX tunnel work?
Click to expand...

If he's talking about the "daylighting" project near the Pinkerton Horn between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA, it's been finished since late last Summer. It really wasn't tunnel work, unless you call getting rid of a tunnel tunnel work. It did cause busing east of Pittsburgh on the then rare cases where 30 left Cleveland later than a specific time. The way things have been going, if this were still in effect, there would be busing almost every day.

So, where is this CSX tunnel work?


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## JayMadison

Any thoughts on how much delay to expect next week on the CL? I'm guessing 2-3 hours based on some historical times in the last few months


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## JayMadison

Kinda sad i'm not taking the Cardinal again now.


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## JayMadison

Say a train is really late but you don't miss a connection, does amtrak compensate passengers in some way? (Granted since I have a roomette I suppose they will have to feed me again if it's really late). Here's hopeing I don't get a sucky SCA


----------



## neroden

PaulM said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The CL has also been encountering long delays between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA which is likely due to the CSX tunnel work that caused a bustitution from WAS to PGH.
> 
> 
> 
> That's *still* going on? The CSX tunnel work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If he's talking about the "daylighting" project near the Pinkerton Horn between Cumberland MD and Connellsville PA, it's been finished since late last Summer. It really wasn't tunnel work, unless you call getting rid of a tunnel tunnel work. It did cause busing east of Pittsburgh on the then rare cases where 30 left Cleveland later than a specific time. The way things have been going, if this were still in effect, there would be busing almost every day.
> 
> So, where is this CSX tunnel work?
Click to expand...

Last year, CSX was going through every single overgrade bridge and tunnel from DC to Pittsburgh, clearing them all for doublestacks, one at a time. That constituted multiple separate large projects on several different tunnels (of which the daylighting project was only one). Even at the end of the summer when the daylighting was done, CSX promptly moved on to a different tunnel.

Maybe the event this year was simply routine tunnel maintenance.

Postscript:

Doing my research, I find that CSX's doublestack clearance program along the former B&O route goes by the name of "National Gateway", and that it is nowhere near done. They're working on the Harper's Ferry tunnel now.

This does explain why the LSL/CL schedule swap hasn't happened yet. I would anticipate it will be much easier to get CSX approval for it once the endless doublestack clearance projects are all done, projected to be sometime in 2015.


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## Barciur

Has 30 left CHI today? Amtrak status thing says it's 1hr40m late departing CHI but no status since then.


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## Acela150

JayMadison said:


> Say a train is really late but you don't miss a connection, does amtrak compensate passengers in some way? (Granted since I have a roomette I suppose they will have to feed me again if it's really late). Here's hopeing I don't get a sucky SCA


They don't really have anything to compensate.. They got you where you had to go. If you were forced onto a bus I'd say call and complain.. But truthfully unless the train leaves over 30 minutes late... Blame NS.. As was covered earlier in the topic. (See page 3) NS has offered crews from other crew districts to temporarily transfer to the NS Chicago Line to help relieve traffic. It's been described as a "Parking Lot" at times. So blame Norfolk Southern for not hiring enough staff..

Talking about staffing, Class I RR's hire rates for the past year is up 1%. Part of it has to do with the pickiness of the railroads. They aren't taking a serious look at folks. They just filter them out.


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## afigg

JayMadison said:


> Any thoughts on how much delay to expect next week on the CL? I'm guessing 2-3 hours based on some historical times in the last few months


Depending on the direction you are going and how far, 1 to 3 hours late covers the most likely delay. But the deviation or variation from day to day has been so large, the average doesn't mean much. As for the Cardinal, it had several very late runs in the past week.


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## Acela150

Barciur said:


> Has 30 left CHI today? Amtrak status thing says it's 1hr40m late departing CHI but no status since then.


Departed CHI 1 hr 50 Min Late. Track a Train shows 48 nearing SOB and 30 still in CHI.. But I think TAT is mixing up 48 and 30. 48 hasn't departed CHI yet.


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## Barciur

Not it's showing as 3 hours late, should be accurate with all the other updates.


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## tommylicious

Moderator can you please rename this thread "Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Delays Discussion"


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## afigg

tommylicious said:


> Moderator can you please rename this thread "Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Delays Discussion"


I concur. We need to have just 1 primary thread going forward on the CL and LSL delays. However, I suggest we should have a date or time frame in the title, so the thread is constrained to the NS and CSX problems being encountered this summer and likely to continue into the fall. Since there is a max length for the thread title, how about "Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited Delays Summer/Fall 2014" ?


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## NYP2NFL01

I created this thread originally & I agree it should be renamed as stated above.


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## Barciur

Yikes. Another crap day for the CL. 30 is currently 4 hours 14 minutes late from Connelsville.

So just working on the assumption that the Pennsylvanian is NOT held past its scheduled departure time - 7:30am from PGH, the CL to Pennsy connection in the past 2 weeks was only made five times! The remaining 8 times it arrived past 7:30.. including that one time it was 12 hours late into WAS!

I wonder - is AMTRAK giving out any vouchers to the insane amount of people that are stuck and brought to WAS or other places very late? It seems like it would cost a lot of money to do that.

Actually, it looks like the Pennsylvanian was held today for the CL. It departed 2 hours 20 minutes late, at 9:50 out of Pittsburgh. The CL was in PGH at 8:46. Or is that some other issues that the Pennsy had?


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## tommylicious

I am due to ride #30 in October with my daughter. At the top of the pack list I have written "Pack for a 5 hour delay."


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## neroden

Barciur said:


> I wonder - is AMTRAK giving out any vouchers to the insane amount of people that are stuck and brought to WAS or other places very late? It seems like it would cost a lot of money to do that.


Amtrak's 'customer inconvenience' costs are way up this year, it's showing up in the operating numbers.


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## Barciur

FWIW, looks like the Pennsy had engine issues - it arrived in Lancaster 2.5 hours late with two engines at the head - so I assume one was defective. Both GE Genesis, #50 and #46.


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## MikeM

This morning (September 9th) I was sitting at a crossing west of Toledo when the Capitol Ltd came blazing by with three engines (the Amtrak Pointless Arrow unit was in the middle) at 8:05am. Definitely not good time vs. the timetable, but for passengers it's kind of nice to see the countryside in daylight hours. Hopefully everyone will eventually get their timekeeping act together, but for now it's an opportunity to watch the train and still get a full night's sleep. :giggle:


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## KVG_DC

I'm hoping this is settled by Thanksgiving/Christmas time when I need to ride again.


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## tommylicious

Nearly 5 hours late #30 due to arrive today. Terrible!


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## richm49

I know that this topic is like beating a dead horse but it seems like it just keeps getting worse with no end to the delays in sight. In particular, both 29/CL westbound to CHI and 30/CL eastbound to WAS appear to have gotten worse recently. According to data from Amtrak train status history the 29/CL averaged 152 minutes late for last 28 days but has now averaged 206 minutes for last 14 days. And the 30/CL was at 236 minutes late for last 28 days but is now averaging a whopping 296 minutes late for last 14 days. Plus, in those last 14 days 30/CL had 3 huge delays of 443,526 and 742 minutes! It appears from everything I have read that these delays are beyond Amtrak's control due to freight traffic congestion but something has to change here sooner or later. You just can't keep getting people to their destinations almost 5 hours late on average. Maybe the answer is to just add 5 hours padding to these schedules and then the trains would be listed as on time….lol!!!!


----------



## MikefromCrete

Aren't a lot of these delays due to construction projects, including the Indiana Gateway project that is designed to trim delays on the Chicago-Porter part of the route? I would imagine work on these projects will stop as winter weather approaches.


----------



## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> Aren't a lot of these delays due to construction projects, including the Indiana Gateway project that is designed to trim delays on the Chicago-Porter part of the route? I would imagine work on these projects will stop as winter weather approaches.


None of them are due to Indian Gateway yet. Those project related delays are yet to come. The current delays are due to extensive single tracking by NS to reconstruct tracks between Cleveland and Porter. And yes, as the construction season winds down these construction related delays should go down considerably.


----------



## tommylicious

Jis any idea when that construction is due to wind down?


----------



## richm49

jis said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't a lot of these delays due to construction projects, including the Indiana Gateway project that is designed to trim delays on the Chicago-Porter part of the route? I would imagine work on these projects will stop as winter weather approaches.
> 
> 
> 
> None of them are due to Indian Gateway yet. Those project related delays are yet to come. The current delays are due to extensive single tracking by NS to reconstruct tracks between Cleveland and Porter. And yes, as the construction season winds down these construction related delays should go down considerably.
Click to expand...

I believe that the Amtrak trains 29/30 and 48/49 run on a stretch of single tracking line that extends for some 18 miles in that area. Sharing that single tracking line with all the freight traffic as well creates a bottleneck that is probably the leading cause for these monumental delays.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't a lot of these delays due to construction projects, including the Indiana Gateway project that is designed to trim delays on the Chicago-Porter part of the route? I would imagine work on these projects will stop as winter weather approaches.
> 
> 
> 
> None of them are due to Indian Gateway yet. Those project related delays are yet to come.
Click to expand...

I was fairly sure Indiana Gateway had actually started construction (sometime in June or July IIRC). I'm not sure you'd be able to tell it apart from routine maintenance without being an expert, especially the early stages of work (track realignment, signal rewiring) before the new crossovers get put in.


----------



## jacorbett70

I started following this recently since I am rolling the dice on 49 (10) to 21 (11) and the first train already slipped from on time to 1:51 late due to the issue between Schenectady and Utica and is estimated 2hrs 4min late at Syracuse. At the time of booking I was not thinking much about westbound misses and now might have my first long distance miss at CHI.

I did not plan anything nonrefundable for the first of two days in DAL so if I miss the CHI connection and go 24 hours later I would skip DART riding and come back to DAL for that next year. Amsnag shows at least one room available on 21 (12).


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## neroden

I tend to travel in winter for other reasons anyway (it's cheaper, and it gets us out of the snowdrifts). But if this sort of trackwork disruption is going to happen every year, it may have an additional advantage.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't a lot of these delays due to construction projects, including the Indiana Gateway project that is designed to trim delays on the Chicago-Porter part of the route? I would imagine work on these projects will stop as winter weather approaches.
> 
> 
> 
> None of them are due to Indian Gateway yet. Those project related delays are yet to come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was fairly sure Indiana Gateway had actually started construction (sometime in June or July IIRC). I'm not sure you'd be able to tell it apart from routine maintenance without being an expert, especially the early stages of work (track realignment, signal rewiring) before the new crossovers get put in.
Click to expand...

The point is that the typical delays on that segment today are no more than what it has always been. The extra delays are mostly being taken between Porter and Cleveland.


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## Railroad Bill

jacorbett70 said:


> I started following this recently since I am rolling the dice on 49 (10) to 21 (11) and the first train already slipped from on time to 1:51 late due to the issue between Schenectady and Utica and is estimated 2hrs 4min late at Syracuse. At the time of booking I was not thinking much about westbound misses and now might have my first long distance miss at CHI.
> 
> I did not plan anything nonrefundable for the first of two days in DAL so if I miss the CHI connection and go 24 hours later I would skip DART riding and come back to DAL for that next year. Amsnag shows at least one room available on 21 (12).


John, I see your 49 is running about 3 hours behind out of Toledo. Hope you do not lose more time between there and CHI.


----------



## afigg

Railroad Bill said:


> jacorbett70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started following this recently since I am rolling the dice on 49 (10) to 21 (11) and the first train already slipped from on time to 1:51 late due to the issue between Schenectady and Utica and is estimated 2hrs 4min late at Syracuse. At the time of booking I was not thinking much about westbound misses and now might have my first long distance miss at CHI.
> 
> I did not plan anything nonrefundable for the first of two days in DAL so if I miss the CHI connection and go 24 hours later I would skip DART riding and come back to DAL for that next year. Amsnag shows at least one room available on 21 (12).
> 
> 
> 
> John, I see your 49 is running about 3 hours behind out of Toledo. Hope you do not lose more time between there and CHI.
Click to expand...

LSL #49 (9/10) is currently 3 hours and 36 minutes late at EKH. It could be a squeaker on whether it makes it in time to Chicago for a connection to the TE.


----------



## Railroad Bill

afigg said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacorbett70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started following this recently since I am rolling the dice on 49 (10) to 21 (11) and the first train already slipped from on time to 1:51 late due to the issue between Schenectady and Utica and is estimated 2hrs 4min late at Syracuse. At the time of booking I was not thinking much about westbound misses and now might have my first long distance miss at CHI.
> 
> I did not plan anything nonrefundable for the first of two days in DAL so if I miss the CHI connection and go 24 hours later I would skip DART riding and come back to DAL for that next year. Amsnag shows at least one room available on 21 (12).
> 
> 
> 
> John, I see your 49 is running about 3 hours behind out of Toledo. Hope you do not lose more time between there and CHI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LSL #49 (9/10) is currently 3 hours and 36 minutes late at EKH. It could be a squeaker on whether it makes it in time to Chicago for a connection to the TE.
Click to expand...

Currently 4 hours late at South Bend. Traveling at 57mph according to Amtrak tracker. Go train Go. Gotta get John to his train on time.


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## jacorbett70

My saga is on Twitter

http://twitter.com/jacorbett70

Basically they first said they did not know if any trains would be held, then my own SCA announced on the PA that all connections were held. I think he either heard wrong or was given misinformation (all except train 21).

Then I hear on the scanner, when approaching at 1:44, that 21 has the gate and is OK to depart, then a clear signal announced by train 21 engine 130, then I see 21 pass as I approach on 49 just south of Union Station to get an official arrival time of 1:49. I suspect the following: few people involved, the ones in front of me at customer service were going to STL and simply took the evening train, and that left maybe a half dozen taking tomorrow's train. There were sleepers available on 421 (12).

(edit because I had computer problems and had to post to avoid losing what I typed in)


----------



## trainman74

jacorbett70 said:


> My saga is on Twitter
> 
> http://twitter.com/jacorbett70


This is quite a saga, even beyond the LSL's timekeeping! I hope you'll consider posting to the Travelogues forum here to preserve things for posterity (or at least to make them easier to read in the future than your tweets).


----------



## afigg

jacorbett70 said:


> Then I hear on the scanner, when approaching at 1:44, that 21 has the gate and is OK to depart, then a clear signal announced by train 21 engine 130, then I see 21 pass as I approach on 49 just south of Union Station to get an official arrival time of 1:49. I suspect the following: few people involved, the ones in front of me at customer service were going to STL and simply took the evening train, and that left maybe a half dozen taking tomorrow's train. There were sleepers available on 421 (12).


Ouch. I would have been mightily irritated if it had happened to me. Checking the status map times, holding #21 5 to 10 minutes or getting #49 in 5-10 minutes earlier (well, less extremely late) would have made the difference on the connection. The sooner the CL and LSL can get back to rarely being more than 1 or 2 hours late, the better.
One piece of good news I saw this week is that the Englewood Flyover is only 3 weeks away from start of testing.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> One piece of good news I saw this week is that the Englewood Flyover is only 3 weeks away from start of testing.


Wow! Should be in service by Thanksgiving then...


----------



## jacorbett70

One thing that puzzled me as to why they would not hold 21 for a few minutes is that there is a LOT of padding in 21's schedule. For example the status file from the 9th shows 21 fell 2hr 49min behind by Arkansas yet recovered to be early into San Antonio. That means three hours of padding.

Status file link:

http://98.69.157.233/scripts/archivefinder.pl?seltrain=21&selmonth=09&selyear=2014&selday=09


----------



## jacorbett70

trainman74 said:


> jacorbett70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My saga is on Twitter
> 
> http://twitter.com/jacorbett70
> 
> 
> 
> This is quite a saga, even beyond the LSL's timekeeping! I hope you'll consider posting to the Travelogues forum here to preserve things for posterity (or at least to make them easier to read in the future than your tweets).
Click to expand...

Will do when I get a chance.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> The point is that the typical delays on that segment today are no more than what it has always been. The extra delays are mostly being taken between Porter and Cleveland.


Point taken.


----------



## JoeZeppy412

On the CL now, headed from Pgh to Seattle on tomorrow's EB. Train arrived in Pgh at about 11:40. Left right on schedule. Lost ten minutes before we left the city limits. Fingers crossed...


----------



## Railroad Bill

JoeZeppy412 said:


> On the CL now, headed from Pgh to Seattle on tomorrow's EB. Train arrived in Pgh at about 11:40. Left right on schedule. Lost ten minutes before we left the city limits. Fingers crossed...


Unfortunately, you are now 3 hours late leaving Waterloo, Indiana. Such is the life of the Capitol Limited.


----------



## afigg

Well, not all the CL and LSL trips are getting in hours late. The eastbound LSL #48(9/11) departed CHI on-time, was 31 minutes late at Bryan OH, departed CLE on-time and got into NYP 6 minutes early! #48 (9/12) is still en-route, but departed CLE 38 minutes late, so it could get to NYP close to on-time if it does not get jammed up on CSX in upper NY state.


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## jis

Maybe because everyone was too buy ordering their iPhone 6s instead of running freight trains  Juuust kidding!


----------



## Joezeppy412

Yep ended up pulling into CHI at 1:30. Just enough time to run up to Gold Coast dogs, stuff our faces standing in the lounge and get on the EB.


----------



## Barciur

Today's CL pulled into CHI at 9:57, only 72 minutes late - so you got unlucky!


----------



## justinslot

A question for the panel:

Let's say I want to go from Chicago to Orlando. The CL is scheduled to get to DC at 1:10 PM. My connection options are the 91 that leaves at 3:05 and the 97 that leaves at 7:30. If I book a sleeper on the 91, am I playing with fire? Like, when the CL inevitably arrives too late to meet the 91 will I not be guaranteed a sleeper on the 97--will they force me into coach on the 97, or to wait a night for the next 91?


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## jis

Once you miss your connection, you will get a sleeper only on an if available basis. There will be no guarantees. Of course if you do not get a sleeper on the connection you will be compensated.

So yes, you will be sort of playing with fire attempting a connection from 30 to 91.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## justinslot

Thanks--that's what I figured.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jis said:


> Once you miss your connection, you will get a sleeper only on an if available basis. There will be no guarantees. Of course if you do not get a sleeper on the connection you will be compensated.
> 
> So yes, you will be sort of playing with fire attempting a connection from 30 to 91.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


When I called to switch my connection from 91 (_*Star*_) to 97 (_*Meteor*_) last July the Agent was surprised I was able to book the 91 connection saying at least for the time being it was being closed.


----------



## tommylicious

A 2 1/2 hour delay I would conjecture is probably perfect for the Eastbound CL. You wake up just about when the scenery starts to get good.


----------



## tommylicious

5.5 hours late rite now


----------



## afigg

tommylicious said:


> 5.5 hours late rite now


Which train?? CL #30 (9/18) which just got into PGH 5:59 late? Departed CHI 51 minutes late, then 5 hours late by the time it departed CLE. Another bad day for both the eastbound and westbound CLs and LSLs on the NS segment. All 4 trains are quite late.

There is some good news for the LD trains, the Silvers and the Palmetto have been doing better in OTP lately from what I can tell.


----------



## Trollopian

This is such a disgrace to our country's infrastructure. I divide my time between Pittsburgh and Washington DC, with apartments in or near downtown in both cities, and Amtrak is by far my preferred travel mode. It's a beautiful journey, in my opinion one of the prettiest (and most underrated) journeys on Amtrak. I don't even care that the train to DC is scheduled to leave Pittsburgh at 5:20 a.m.; I could leave home at 5 a.m. and catch it! But notice I said "scheduled to leave" at 5:20 a.m. It hardly ever does. I've gotten used to 1- or 2-hour delays, but 5 hours is obviously unacceptable. Until the NS work gets done and the schedule regains some semblance of reliability, I've switched to bus, car, and plane, all of them decidedly second choices.

Returning from DC I can usually expect the Capitol Limited to leave DC and even arrive in Pittsburgh reasonably on schedule. The massive delays are west of Pittsburgh.


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## Thirdrail7

A freight train had a problem and was delayed. The resulting delays cascaded through the system, which is already overloaded. It doesn't take much with a fragile system. Think of it like a car breaking down in rush hour.


----------



## Orangesaint

Thirdrail7 said:


> A freight train had a problem and was delayed. The resulting delays cascaded through the system, which is already overloaded. It doesn't take much with a fragile system. Think of it like a car breaking down in rush hour.


Out of curiosity, where do you find information like that? (the freight train having a problem)


----------



## tommylicious

agreed how do you find those incident reports?



Orangesaint said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A freight train had a problem and was delayed. The resulting delays cascaded through the system, which is already overloaded. It doesn't take much with a fragile system. Think of it like a car breaking down in rush hour.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, where do you find information like that? (the freight train having a problem)
Click to expand...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> agreed how do you find those incident reports?
> 
> 
> 
> Orangesaint said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A freight train had a problem and was delayed. The resulting delays cascaded through the system, which is already overloaded. It doesn't take much with a fragile system. Think of it like a car breaking down in rush hour.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, where do you find information like that? (the freight train having a problem)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I believe Thirdrail7 has insider info, though there are other sources, but I'm not aware what/where they are.


----------



## tommylicious

is this the sort of thing you'd hear on a scanner?


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## neroden

tommylicious said:


> is this the sort of thing you'd hear on a scanner?


If you happened to be scanning in the right place at the right time.


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## Railroad Bill

Looks like something happened to #29 this morning after it left Sandusky. LSL #49 passed them and arrived into Toledo ahead of the Cap. Now running 1.5 hrs late into Waterloo, Ind with the Cap operated an hour or so behind them. :unsure:


----------



## tommylicious

did 30 leave yet? odd status.


----------



## tommylicious

30 departed 4 hours and 40 minutes late last night. what is the deal with that??


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> 30 departed 4 hours and 40 minutes late last night. what is the deal with that??


29 arrived over 5 hours late yesterday morning. Probably couldn't turn it in time.


----------



## Barciur

On a positive note, though, 29 today got to CHI 21 minutes late!


----------



## tommylicious

See that on today's 29 definitely excellent. But the prior nite's...holy cow that's bad.


----------



## jis

Yesterday 30 had a Sleeper bad ordered at the last moment requiring substitution by another Sleeper causing the delay. Rafi was on it. That is how I know.


----------



## tommylicious

Thanks for the color jis. So a Sleeper car went bad? What happened to it?


----------



## jis

Dunno. All that I heard is that it was bad ordered and replaced.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> On a positive note, though, 29 today got to CHI 21 minutes late!


While #29(9/21) did ok on the ALC to CHI segment, #49(9/21) did not. It departed CLE 1 hour and 1 minute late, arrived CHI 3 hours and 47 minutes late.

On the other hand, #30(9/21,) with the bad ordered sleeper, departed CHI 4 hours and 5 minutes late, "only" lost 52 additional minutes to ALC, departing 4 hours and 57 minutes late. With the frequent delays in recent months on the NS tracks, could have been down 7 hours by ALC.

There are 2 service alerts on the Amtrak website for track work delays for Sunday to Thursday work windows on CSX sections in NY state. So the LSL is not going to get a break across upper state NY most of the week. The August and September monthly reports are not likely to have strong ridership numbers for the LSL and CL.


----------



## neroden

In good news, Englewood Flyover seems to be *way* ahead of schedule. Metra has opened one track and run the first trains over it.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/60663-englewood-flyover-progress/

The second track is supposed to open this coming weekend, after which the diamonds will be removed.

NS has said previously that Englewood Crossing was the single biggest chokepoint on their entire national system. So I hope that removing it will make their dispatchers' work easier.

If Englewood really was the key chokepoint for the entire NS system, it is possible that the flyover project may actually reduce delays due to NS trackwork elsewhere (even as far away as Ohio), by allowing them to get freight trains cleared out of the way of the trackwork well in advance of Amtrak's arrival.

We're not going to see relief on the Empire Corridor for a while unfortunately. :-(


----------



## Railroad Bill

This morning's CL 30 now running 8 hours late across Indiana. LSL running 5 hours late behind them. Passengers continue to be dedicated to Amtrak despite the total breakdown in OTP.  It has been a long night sitting in Cleveland


----------



## montana mike

Are the big delays just due to "heavy traffic" or was there some incident that caused both of these trains to be so late?

Also, I thought the track work in western NY was supposed to be completed by mid-September. It doesn't look like any improvement in OTP at the stations from SYR to the west for westbound trains?


----------



## Railroad Bill

montana mike said:


> Are the big delays just due to "heavy traffic" or was there some incident that caused both of these trains to be so late?
> 
> Also, I thought the track work in western NY was supposed to be completed by mid-September. It doesn't look like any improvement in OTP at the stations from SYR to the west for westbound trains?


CL left Chicago on time but was 5 hours late by time it reached South Bend. LSL left an hour late from CHI but was 3 hours late into Elkhart. Both continued to lose more time as they went across Indiana.


----------



## tommylicious

look at this map! 29,30,48,49 stacked right on top of each other! http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/getmap.pl?mapname=East


----------



## Barciur

That's why I bought a sleeper for the return from Chicago next month. In case something like this happens, prefer to be in a private room


----------



## afigg

tommylicious said:


> look at this map! 29,30,48,49 stacked right on top of each other! http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/getmap.pl?mapname=East


The problem with that link is that is a dynamic map. A couple of hours later and the trains will have moved on (hopefully).

Something must have happened to stop and seriously delay the eastbound CL and LSL overnight. #30 (9/23) is 8:45 late departing SKY and #48(9/23) is 6:57 late departing BYN. And once #48 gets pass Cleveland, it then has to get through CSX track work in upper state NY. #48(9/22) was over 6 hours late arriving at NYP at 12:40 AM, losing ~3.5 hours from Cleveland to Utica.

If #30 and #48 don't get bustituted, those trains will get to WAS and NYP very, very late.


----------



## tommylicious

what if you don't want to take the nasty bus? can you just ride the train back?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> what if you don't want to take the nasty bus? can you just ride the train back?


I doubt it. I suspect they deadhead the cars back. My guess is the OBS also take the bus to the end point.


----------



## tommylicious

that is just nasty. you paid for a nice bedroom, and end up on a junky, cramped bus.


----------



## afigg

tommylicious said:


> that is just nasty. you paid for a nice bedroom, and end up on a junky, cramped bus.


But we don't know if Amtrak will bustitute either eastbound train. The CL and LSL have overnight turnarounds for equipment at WAS and NYP, so they may just slog through. In that case, those who paid for nice bedrooms and those who paid for coach can stay on the train with a full day of scenery to look at.


----------



## tommylicious

Anyone know what happened on the line?


----------



## montana mike

I see BOTH the CL and LSL heading into CHI have been basically sitting going nowhere in Indiana over the past couple hours. Both are now over 4 hours late and given the past experience over the last few miles in Indiana lately it would look like both could easily be 5-6 hours late arriving into CHI.

What a mess in Indiana today--an almost total meltdown!!!


----------



## jis

NS has had a complete meltdown in Indiana since yesterday, and they are yet to recover. Their own hotshots are also running many hours behind schedule upsetting their best customers.


----------



## montana mike

Any idea what caused this problem? Both the CL and LSL still crawling westward (still in Indiana), and BOTH look like they will be around 6 hours late arriving in CHI--OUCH!

:-(


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Looks like they held 3 and 5 for 49. Neither have departed CHI yet (5 is on the modified schedule of 2:50 departure).


----------



## neroden

Do we know whether there was a specific accident or trackwork or signal failure yesterday, or whether this is just NS's underinvestment catching up with them?

Damn, I am so much smarter in some ways than the CEOs running some of the class Is. This upturn in railroad business was *predictable* and in fact I predicted it back in 2008 -- even down to the specific regions which would need more service. Apparently, sitting on substantially more data, the railroad CEOs didn't predict it. I kind of hate being smarter than the people in charge, it means you watch predictable, avoidable disasters unfold.

The problem is probably a problem of attitude. These are old fogies running the companies; I'm not sure they're capable of really imagining a true resurgence in rail demand, since it's been nothing but false starts for most of their lives. I see a little farther into the future than most people my age, but a lot farther than someone 15 years older (or more). They'd do better if they put (the right) 20-year-old in charge.


----------



## jis

montana mike said:


> Any idea what caused this problem? Both the CL and LSL still crawling westward (still in Indiana), and BOTH look like they will be around 6 hours late arriving in CHI--OUCH!
> 
> :-(


The problem apparently is Chicago and congestion in getting trains across Chicago, causing crews to time out on main lines stalling trains blocking everything. As soon as they are able to decongest Chicago things will start moving again I am told.


----------



## afigg

The westbound CL and LSL have made it to CHI, but both over 5.5 hours late. Given that if Amtrak sends them eastward tonight, they will be departing late, have to wonder if consideration is being given to annulling one or both to allow crew rest and maintenance to catch up. The eastbound CL and LSL that left on 9/23 are still enroute, both over 8 hours late.

For the record, this is the status maps dump for the westbound 9/23 CL and LSL. The damage is mostly between Toledo and Chicago and from my random checks of the Amtrak train tracker, the problem was/is east of Porter as the Michigan trains don't appear to be that late. Would be nice if Amtrak posted a status alert or there was specific information on whether this was just a system meltdown or a combination of factors leading to a bad day.



Code:


* Train 29 of 09/23/2014.
* Capitol Limited
* +---------------- Station code
* |    +----------- Schedule Arrival Day 
* |    |  +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* |    |  |     +----- Schedule Departure Day
* |    |  |     |  +-- Schedule Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     +------- Actual Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     |     +- Comments
* V    V  V     V  V     V     V     V
* WAS  *  *     1  405P  *     405P  Departed:  on time.
* RKV  *  *     1  429P  *     433P  Departed:  4 minutes late.
* HFY  *  *     1  516P  *     522P  Departed:  6 minutes late.
* MRB  *  *     1  545P  *     550P  Departed:  5 minutes late.
* CUM  1  714P  1  724P  716P  724P  Departed:  on time.
* COV  *  *     1  947P  *     947P  Departed:  on time.
* PGH  1  1148P 1  1159P 1121P 1159P Departed:  on time.
* ALC  *  *     2  139A  *     259A  Departed:  1 hour and 20 minutes late.
* CLE  2  253A  2  259A  420A  426A  Departed:  1 hour and 27 minutes late.
* ELY  *  *     2  329A  *     510A  Departed:  1 hour and 41 minutes late.
* SKY  *  *     2  402A  *     546A  Departed:  1 hour and 44 minutes late.
* TOL  2  508A  2  522A  652A  703A  Departed:  1 hour and 41 minutes late.
* WTI  *  *     2  636A  *     843A  Departed:  2 hours and 7 minutes late.
* EKH  *  *     2  729A  *     1203P Departed:  4 hours and 34 minutes late.
* SOB  *  *     2  751A  *     1225P Departed:  4 hours and 34 minutes late.
* CHI  2  845A  *  *     236P  *     Arrived:  5 hours and 51 minutes late.




Code:


* Train 49 of 09/23/2014.
* Lake Shore Limited
* NYP  *  *     1  340P  *     340P  Departed:  on time.
* CRT  *  *     1  426P  *     426P  Departed:  on time.
* POU  *  *     1  510P  *     513P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
* RHI  *  *     1  527P  *     528P  Departed:  1 minute late.
* ALB  1  620P  1  705P  611P  708P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
* SDY  *  *     1  731P  *     740P  Departed:  9 minutes late.
* UCA  *  *     1  844P  *     924P  Departed:  40 minutes late.
* SYR  *  *     1  941P  *     1035P Departed:  54 minutes late.
* ROC  *  *     1  1100P *     1210A Departed:  1 hour and 10 minutes late.
* BUF  1  1155P 1  1159P 114A  135A  Departed:  1 hour and 36 minutes late.
* ERI  *  *     2  136A  *     310A  Departed:  1 hour and 34 minutes late.
* CLE  2  327A  2  345A  443A  450A  Departed:  1 hour and 5 minutes late.
* ELY  *  *     2  418A  *     533A  Departed:  1 hour and 15 minutes late.
* SKY  *  *     2  455A  *     616A  Departed:  1 hour and 21 minutes late.
* TOL  2  555A  2  615A  723A  747A  Departed:  1 hour and 32 minutes late.
* BYN  *  *     2  705A  *     936A  Departed:  2 hours and 31 minutes late.
* WTI  *  *     2  733A  *     1031A Departed:  2 hours and 58 minutes late.
* EKH  *  *     2  825A  *     1259P Departed:  4 hours and 34 minutes late.
* SOB  *  *     2  849A  *     207P  Departed:  5 hours and 18 minutes late.
* CHI  2  945A  *  *     325P  *     Arrived:  5 hours and 40 minutes late.


----------



## JoeZeppy412

*Moderator Note: These posts were originally in a thread entitled "CL 30 just announced leaving at 8:30." (which appears to refer to 9/24 train 30). The posts were moved to this thread regarding Capitol Limited and Lakeshore Limited.*

Due to "crew rest" it sounded like they said? 

Good thing I jammed that hot dog in my face ten minutes ago...

Seriously, why did they wait until I pulled my carry on out if the locker, tore through the food court, pounded dinner and a beer, and tore back?

They really just discovered a two hour delay 20 minutes before the train is to leave? That's BS...


----------



## richm49

afigg said:


> The westbound CL and LSL have made it to CHI, but both over 5.5 hours late. Given that if Amtrak sends them eastward tonight, they will be departing late, have to wonder if consideration is being given to annulling one or both to allow crew rest and maintenance to catch up. The eastbound CL and LSL that left on 9/23 are still enroute, both over 8 hours late.
> 
> For the record, this is the status maps dump for the westbound 9/23 CL and LSL. The damage is mostly between Toledo and Chicago and from my random checks of the Amtrak train tracker, the problem was/is east of Porter as the Michigan trains don't appear to be that late. Would be nice if Amtrak posted a status alert or there was specific information on whether this was just a system meltdown or a combination of factors leading to a bad day.
> 
> * Train 29 of 09/23/2014.
> * Capitol Limited
> * +---------------- Station code
> * | +----------- Schedule Arrival Day
> * | | +-------- Schedule Arrival time
> * | | | +----- Schedule Departure Day
> * | | | | +-- Schedule Departure Time
> * | | | | | +------------- Actual Arrival Time
> * | | | | | | +------- Actual Departure Time
> * | | | | | | | +- Comments
> * V V V V V V V V
> * WAS * * 1 405P * 405P Departed: on time.
> * RKV * * 1 429P * 433P Departed: 4 minutes late.
> * HFY * * 1 516P * 522P Departed: 6 minutes late.
> * MRB * * 1 545P * 550P Departed: 5 minutes late.
> * CUM 1 714P 1 724P 716P 724P Departed: on time.
> * COV * * 1 947P * 947P Departed: on time.
> * PGH 1 1148P 1 1159P 1121P 1159P Departed: on time.
> * ALC * * 2 139A * 259A Departed: 1 hour and 20 minutes late.
> * CLE 2 253A 2 259A 420A 426A Departed: 1 hour and 27 minutes late.
> * ELY * * 2 329A * 510A Departed: 1 hour and 41 minutes late.
> * SKY * * 2 402A * 546A Departed: 1 hour and 44 minutes late.
> * TOL 2 508A 2 522A 652A 703A Departed: 1 hour and 41 minutes late.
> * WTI * * 2 636A * 843A Departed: 2 hours and 7 minutes late.
> * EKH * * 2 729A * 1203P Departed: 4 hours and 34 minutes late.
> * SOB * * 2 751A * 1225P Departed: 4 hours and 34 minutes late.
> * CHI 2 845A * * 236P * Arrived: 5 hours and 51 minutes late.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> * Train 49 of 09/23/2014.
> * Lake Shore Limited
> * NYP  *  *     1  340P  *     340P  Departed:  on time.
> * CRT  *  *     1  426P  *     426P  Departed:  on time.
> * POU  *  *     1  510P  *     513P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
> * RHI  *  *     1  527P  *     528P  Departed:  1 minute late.
> * ALB  1  620P  1  705P  611P  708P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
> * SDY  *  *     1  731P  *     740P  Departed:  9 minutes late.
> * UCA  *  *     1  844P  *     924P  Departed:  40 minutes late.
> * SYR  *  *     1  941P  *     1035P Departed:  54 minutes late.
> * ROC  *  *     1  1100P *     1210A Departed:  1 hour and 10 minutes late.
> * BUF  1  1155P 1  1159P 114A  135A  Departed:  1 hour and 36 minutes late.
> * ERI  *  *     2  136A  *     310A  Departed:  1 hour and 34 minutes late.
> * CLE  2  327A  2  345A  443A  450A  Departed:  1 hour and 5 minutes late.
> * ELY  *  *     2  418A  *     533A  Departed:  1 hour and 15 minutes late.
> * SKY  *  *     2  455A  *     616A  Departed:  1 hour and 21 minutes late.
> * TOL  2  555A  2  615A  723A  747A  Departed:  1 hour and 32 minutes late.
> * BYN  *  *     2  705A  *     936A  Departed:  2 hours and 31 minutes late.
> * WTI  *  *     2  733A  *     1031A Departed:  2 hours and 58 minutes late.
> * EKH  *  *     2  825A  *     1259P Departed:  4 hours and 34 minutes late.
> * SOB  *  *     2  849A  *     207P  Departed:  5 hours and 18 minutes late.
> * CHI  2  945A  *  *     325P  *     Arrived:  5 hours and 40 minutes late.


As of this moment both 30/CL and 48/LSL are both approaching 10 hours late.As of 7:29 P.M. the CL was just departing CUM( due to depart 9:31 A.M.) and the LSL departed BUF at 7:00 P.M. (due to depart at 9:08 A.M.). Additional delays can be expected as these operating crews are outlawed and have to wait for replacement crews.At their current operating pace the CL won't arrive WAS before 11 P.M. and the LSL won't make NYP before 4 A.M. tomorrow morning! At least it will make AM rush hour connections in New York….lol. With summer now in the rearview mirror there does not seem to be any end to these crushing delays.Any way to do a temporary re-route to avoid some of these delays?


----------



## terry cripe

Tuesday night's #30 stopped about 7:30pm. The conductor said that 5 freights were trying to get into the Elkart yards and that the next thirty miles would be slow-going. It was stop and go all the way to Elkhart. After that, we were still apparently following one or more freights because the speed did not pick up appreciably. 8 hours late getting into Waterloo. I heard a number of first-time Amtrak travelers say, "Never again."

Terry


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> The problem apparently is Chicago and congestion in getting trains across Chicago, causing crews to time out on main lines stalling trains blocking everything. As soon as they are able to decongest Chicago things will start moving again I am told.


Haven't we known about Chicago congestion since, um, before 2003, when the CREATE taskforce was formed by Mayor Daley? http://www.createprogram.org/about.htm
Maybe if the Class Is had invested more of their own money, they'd have cleared some of the problems by now....


----------



## reppin_the_847

Looks like the Eastbound Capital Limited & Lakeshore Limited trains are having some difficulty getting into Elkhart early this morning Sept. 25th (or late night depending on how you look at it).


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## JoeZeppy412

CL 30 6 hours down - announcing bustituitions in PGH to make connections


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## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem apparently is Chicago and congestion in getting trains across Chicago, causing crews to time out on main lines stalling trains blocking everything. As soon as they are able to decongest Chicago things will start moving again I am told.
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't we known about Chicago congestion since, um, before 2003, when the CREATE taskforce was formed by Mayor Daley? http://www.createprogram.org/about.htm
> Maybe if the Class Is had invested more of their own money, they'd have cleared some of the problems by now....
Click to expand...

Moreover, they could get some ideas from the FAA ATC's "flow control" wherein certain departures are withheld until congestion down line clears. The railroads in their dispatching systems are still stuck somewhere in the mid 20th century. Just because their trains do not fall out of the sky if they cannot find yard space for it, they are just outright undisciplined and careless in planning crew assignments and train flows.
For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.

Yes, there are those odd corner cases where a congestion screwup becomes inevitable and you deal with it. But that should hardly be the normal everyday mode of operation.


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## tommylicious

well said jis!


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.


What I am not clear on is whether there are still seasonal track work chokepoints that are also a factor or is it just a complete meltdown of the current system due to growth in traffic, poor dispatching, and too much cutting of staffing levels and track capacity?

For the record, here is what a NS meltdown results in:

CL #30 (9/23) arrived at WAS 10:45 PM ET, 9 hours and 35 minutes late.

LSL #48 (9/23) departed CLE 8 hours and 8 minutes late, arrived at NYP at 4:33 AM ET, 10 hours and 10 minutes late. But, hey, in time to beat the _morning_ rush hour!


----------



## Trollopian

"NS meltdown" is right. That's why this loyal railfan is reluctantly driving, rather than taking the train, from Pittsburgh to DC tomorrow....though the train is greener, prettier, competitively priced, stress-free, and convenient (I live in or near both cities' downtowns). Just hopelessly unreliable.

I wish we could get some clear answers as to whether the delays (which are clearly clustered on NS segments in IND and, to a lesser extent, OH) are seasonal or the "new normal."


----------



## JoeZeppy412

Adding insult to injury, after arriving in PGH at 11:30 am, we stood in an empty station, not an employee in sight and no idea where they were, or even if there was one, for a half hour waiting for our luggage to be released to us. Apparently they were all upstairs transferring luggage for the bustituitions.

Once again a total lack of information or communication. Are they actively trying to drive business away?


----------



## tommylicious

bustitution has got to be the worst!


----------



## BuzzKillington

We still have several crude oil refineries to open and expand yet on the East Coast. I think the traffic is just going to get worse.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Moreover, they could get some ideas from the FAA ATC's "flow control" wherein certain departures are withheld until congestion down line clears. The railroads in their dispatching systems are still stuck somewhere in the mid 20th century. Just because their trains do not fall out of the sky if they cannot find yard space for it, they are just outright undisciplined and careless in planning crew assignments and train flows.
> 
> For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.
> 
> Yes, there are those odd corner cases where a congestion screwup becomes inevitable and you deal with it. But that should hardly be the normal everyday mode of operation.


 Well said.

The mid-19th century solution for this sort of situation (remember, centralization wasn't an option with slow communications....) was a little harsh, but it worked: they would simply lift the excess freight cars sitting at the yard off the rails and drop 'em in the grass, in order to make room for the arrivals.

Well before it came to that point, railroads would decline business if they couldn't handle it -- a concept which seems to be alien to BNSF and NS right now. Why are they accepting any new ladings of non-time-sensitive freight? They have an entire procedure known as the "blockade" precisely for the purpose of refusing new business while they clear a disruption -- why aren't they using it? There seems to be some sort of gross incompetence at the executive level.


----------



## tommylicious

i wonder if there were to be an investigation of internal railroad communications whether it would reveal a deliberate, repeated campaign to sabotage Amtrak performance.


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## montana mike

I hope that would not be the case. It would look like to me just plain old utter and complete incompetence!!!


----------



## Eric S

What's the expression? Something like "Don't attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


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## montana mike

#49 now almost 7 hours behind and barely moving at all in eastern Indiana, looks like they will lose considerably more time before finally arriving this evening in CHI--likely 8+ hours late--wow!! It doesn't look like anything has been "fixed" on this route does it.

This seems to be way more than the "usual" congestion, since this is now the second time this week a meltdown has occurred in this area.

Bummer.

PS--The CL also appears to be very late as well, stuck in the same vicinity as the LSL


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Do they ever bus passengers from somewhere in IN or even OH to catch up to the other trains if they think they'll miss connections in CHI?


----------



## jis

They have done busing between Toledo and Chicago in the recent past.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> They have done busing between Toledo and Chicago in the recent past.


Good to hear. I will be switching to a roomette in Toledo....maybe. I'd rather make my connection than be in a roomette worrying if I'll make my connection.


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## jis

They turned a very late LSL in Toledo and bused between Toledo and Chicago.


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## greatcats

I am not saying anything brilliant, but I am disgusted by these huge delays east of Chicago and wonder what my trip east will be like next May. Much of this is not the fault of Amtrak, but the result is a disgrace, as bad if not worse than the performance of 7 and 8. B


----------



## montana mike

Good Point. I follow #7 and #8 closely, since I ride that train frequently, but next month I am "connecting" to the LSL and it looks like my connections may indeed be a crap shoot at best. I have taken the LSL before and found it to be reasonably close to on time in both directions, but that was a couple years ago. I agree with the other comments that the railroads have been incredibly shortsighted in this regard. I would imagine their freight customers are screaming even louder than the poor pax for Amtrak.

:-(


----------



## afigg

AmtrakBlue said:


> Do they ever bus passengers from somewhere in IN or even OH to catch up to the other trains if they think they'll miss connections in CHI?


I was on a westbound #49 LSL that was bused from Toledo to Chicago. But that was not to make connections in CHI as we arrived at CHI after 11 PM, over 13 hours late. They turned the LSL around at Toledo so as to be able to maintain the schedule for the eastbound LSL departing that night. The reason for the that turnaround was not a meltdown on the NS tracks in OH & IN, although we lost a lot of time getting from CLE to TOL, but a contractor caused rock slide on the Metro-North Hudson River tracks that blocked traffic for over 6 hours.

After easing up a bit on Thursday (9/25), the NS route in IN and OH is back to full meltdown again today. #29 and #49 (9/25) look to 7+ hours late to CHI, which mean late departures tonight if Amtrak doesn't throw in the towel and annul the trains for a day to catch up.

#30(9/25) departed CHI 1 hour and 21 minutes late, CLE 5 hours and 5 minutes late, and is enroute over 6 hours late at CUM. Connections to the Crescent and Meteor are at risk unless they bused people from Pittsburgh. #48(9/25) has departed Rochester 5 hours and 46 minutes late.

Has gotten just plain ugly for the 2 main NEC to Chicago LD trains. When does this get better and back to normal?


----------



## neroden

I think it would be faster if both trains were routinely detoured via the Michigan Line. Ahem.

The delays are mostly between Toledo and Porter, amirite?


----------



## Orangesaint

I am very close to cancelling to cross-country trip in December. I haven't taken a lengthy train ride in six years, and was looking forward to this. But how can one sit here and actually make a vacation plan via Amtrak. Being from Upstate NY, the LSL is a train that I will always need to book in some capacity if I want to go west. Perhaps the CL, but that's no different with this unreliability.

"It's not Amtrak's fault". Look, I get that. Repeating that over and over as I now in a coach seat on the Southwest Chief because I lost the roomette I booked when I missed the connection on the day I was supposed to take the SC because the LSL was late; is not going to make things better. I am still in coach because of this, Amtrak's fault or not, roomette refunded or not, and therefore my vacation is ruined. The train ride here, is the vacation. Does Amtrak even get that aspect of why people may ride a train anymore? They may in their commercials, but in reality what I see is anything but.

Will Amtrak bus me if the LSL is late, from Toledo (for example) to Chicago, or to Naperville so I can get on the Southwest Chief I belong on? If I could have assurance that they would, I would feel so much better. It would be very relieving right now, if you could click something somewhere on Amtrak.com to find out if they are busing people today. Then today, I am breathing a sigh of relief that Amtrak cared enough, instead of wondering what the heck has happened to the passengers on today's trains. But you can't find that information anywhere. So therefore I am concerned. That concern IS Amtrak's fault. This forum right here is the only place I can find any kind of reliable information.

Call Amtrak? Tried that yesterday for something else. "You're call will be answered in approximately 24 minutes." For an hour. And never the call picked up.

Sorry for the vent, but knowing something was not Amtrak's fault does not automatically make someone's vacation ok. Amtrak could be more open about what they do for people, and showing what they are doing; instead of making us all wonder "what happened today". And if "what happened today" will happen when its "my train."


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> I think it would be faster if both trains were routinely detoured via the Michigan Line. Ahem.
> 
> The delays are mostly between Toledo and Porter, amirite?


The westbound LSL and CL trains today were delayed several hours when they got to Toledo and then hit more delays. The traffic jam appears to stretch from Cleveland to South Bend. If the detour through MI adds some 3 hours to the trip, the time savings would be pretty much a wash. Although Amtrak might do a MI detour for a day to give NS a break to help clear traffic backlog.

Here are the status maps dump for the westbound LSL and CL today which have arrived at CHI, but seriously late. Note that #49 was right behind #29.

* Train 29 of 09/25/2014.
* Capitol Limited
* +---------------- Station code
* | +----------- Schedule Arrival Day 
* | | +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* | | | +----- Schedule Departure Day
* | | | | +-- Schedule Departure Time
* | | | | | +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* | | | | | | +------- Actual Departure Time
* | | | | | | | +- Comments
* V V V V V V V V
* WAS * * 1 405P * 405P Departed: on time.
* RKV * * 1 429P * 431P Departed: 2 minutes late.
* HFY * * 1 516P * 517P Departed: 1 minute late.
* MRB * * 1 545P * 546P Departed: 1 minute late.
* CUM 1 714P 1 724P 715P 724P Departed: on time.
* COV * * 1 947P * 947P Departed: on time.
* PGH 1 1148P 1 1159P 1118P 1159P Departed: on time.
* ALC * * 2 139A * 201A Departed: 22 minutes late.
* CLE 2 253A 2 259A 305A 313A Departed: 14 minutes late.
* ELY * * 2 329A * 505A Departed: 1 hour and 36 minutes late.
* SKY * * 2 402A * 546A Departed: 1 hour and 44 minutes late.
* TOL 2 508A 2 522A 820A 831A Departed: 3 hours and 9 minutes late.
* WTI * * 2 636A * 1125A Departed: 4 hours and 49 minutes late.
* EKH * * 2 729A * 307P Departed: 7 hours and 38 minutes late.
* SOB * * 2 751A * 332P Departed: 7 hours and 41 minutes late.
* CHI 2 845A * * 432P * Arrived: 7 hours and 47 minutes late.



Code:


* Train 49 of 09/25/2014.
* Lake Shore Limited
* NYP  *  *     1  340P  *     342P  Departed:  2 minutes late.
* CRT  *  *     1  426P  *     426P  Departed:  on time.
* POU  *  *     1  510P  *     510P  Departed:  on time.
* RHI  *  *     1  527P  *     527P  Departed:  on time.
* ALB  1  620P  1  705P  608P  713P  Departed:  8 minutes late.
* SDY  *  *     1  731P  *     806P  Departed:  35 minutes late.
* UCA  *  *     1  844P  *     932P  Departed:  48 minutes late.
* SYR  *  *     1  941P  *     1036P Departed:  55 minutes late.
* ROC  *  *     1  1100P *     1215A Departed:  1 hour and 15 minutes late.
* BUF  1  1155P 1  1159P 106A  122A  Departed:  1 hour and 23 minutes late.
* ERI  *  *     2  136A  *     250A  Departed:  1 hour and 14 minutes late.
* CLE  2  327A  2  345A  438A  446A  Departed:  1 hour and 1 minute late.
* ELY  *  *     2  418A  *     539A  Departed:  1 hour and 21 minutes late.
* SKY  *  *     2  455A  *     615A  Departed:  1 hour and 20 minutes late.
* TOL  2  555A  2  615A  855A  917A  Departed:  3 hours and 2 minutes late.
* BYN  *  *     2  705A  *     1020A Departed:  3 hours and 15 minutes late.
* WTI  *  *     2  733A  *     1136A Departed:  4 hours and 3 minutes late.
* EKH  *  *     2  825A  *     321P  Departed:  6 hours and 56 minutes late.
* SOB  *  *     2  849A  *     344P  Departed:  6 hours and 55 minutes late.
* CHI  2  945A  *  *     442P  *     Arrived:  6 hours and 57 minutes late.

PS. anyone replying to this post, please trim the above schedule dump as a courtesy to keep the message size smaller.


----------



## neroden

Well, I booked a Chicago overnight going westbound on my January trip. But, still, ridiculous. They'd better load enough food for an extra meal in Indiana -- and that *is* under Amtrak's control.


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## Barciur

30 out of CHI posts as 3 hours 50 minutes late on Amtrak.com.

Starting to fret on my CL trip to Chicago in a month's time...


----------



## jacorbett70

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be faster if both trains were routinely detoured via the Michigan Line. Ahem.
> 
> The delays are mostly between Toledo and Porter, amirite?
> 
> 
> 
> The westbound LSL and CL trains today were delayed several hours when they got to Toledo and then hit more delays.
Click to expand...

Looks like all the western connections were broken except for 59. Tough day for this to happen the same day that 1000s of flights were cancelled stranding flyers in Chicago as well.


----------



## montana mike

And it keeps on getting worse. #48 still hasn't left CHI. Already at least 90 minutes late (and Amtrak estimates a 1 AM Saturday (3 1/2 hour delay) departure), which will just compound the delays enroute. What a mess!

:-(


----------



## Barciur

Has 30 been cancelled?


----------



## greatcats

I see that 30 left Chicago at 11:56 pm. Ain't that wonderful? Presumably sleeper passenger were given some money to go get dinner. I don't know what to say about what should be done with these freight railroads, other than make inane suggestions, but they should be ashamed of the mess they have created. They probably don't care all that much, but after all they are under contract to Amtrak. Doesn't this amount to a breach of contract, not providing reasonably reliable access to their lines?


----------



## Guest

Is it possible that with the flight cancellations from Chicago yesterday, Amtrak took on extra passengers that needed to go to these locations and added a coach car or two to each train? Or is that something that Amtrak would need far more time to do?


----------



## jis

Amtrak would be a viable option mostly for cancelled regional operations. Not so much for main line long haul operations. They'd probably get to their destinations faster mostly by waiting for the clearing flights the following day.


----------



## richm49

I changed my westbound reservations from NYP-CHI for 49/LSL to 51/Cardinal.Yes, I know the route is circuitous and that it departs @ 6:55 A.M.(leaving on a Sunday) vs 3:40 P.M. for LSL but it has a much better on time record,especially for the last 5 weeks or so. While 29/CL and 49/LSL have been ridiculously late getting into CHI( 49/LSL has missed ALL West Coast LD trains on 5 occasions just from 9/1-9/25), 51/Cardinal has been EARLY or on time 10 of the last 15 westbound trips to CHI with only 1 delay exceeding 60 minutes. If you need to connect to West Coast LD train it should be a consideration…..too bad it only runs 3/day/week schedule!


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## tommylicious

Indiana - Ohio have gone completely crazytown!


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## montana mike

Wow. #49 lost an additional two hours just between SOB and CHI today--unreal--arriving well over 4 1/2 hours late and once again missing westbound connections. what the heck is going on here. Things are getting worse, not better. I think Amtrak needs to issue a service alert for this train!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Looks like 7 & 5 are holding for connections.


----------



## montana mike

Guest said:


> Is it possible that with the flight cancellations from Chicago yesterday, Amtrak took on extra passengers that needed to go to these locations and added a coach car or two to each train? Or is that something that Amtrak would need far more time to do?


The very long delay in getting the CL going last night was due to the fact that the inbound train was so very late.


----------



## afigg

montana mike said:


> Wow. #49 lost an additional two hours just between SOB and CHI today--unreal--arriving well over 4 1/2 hours late and once again missing westbound connections. what the heck is going on here. Things are getting worse, not better. I think Amtrak needs to issue a service alert for this train!


Both CL #29(9/26) and LSL #49(9/26) lost additional 2 hours between SOB and CHI today. I looked at the Amtrak tracker around mid--day and they were both, along with a Wolverine, at 0 mph for a while in Northern IN. At least, they got to CHI less late than yesterday, #29(9/26) 4 hours and 43 minutes late, #49(9/26) 4 hours and 48 minutes late at 2:33 PM. CZ #6(9/25) is over 4.5 hours late enroute to CHI, so a late turnaround departure of the CL #30 is going to give time for a late CZ connection.

#29(9/26) was having a good run, BTW, only 20 minutes late departing Sandusky OH. Then wham.

#30(9/26) is the one having the really ugly run today; the very late #29 yesterday causing a 5 hours and 16 minutes late departure from CHI, departed CLE 9 hours and 26 minutes late, and now PGH 10.5 hours late. Yikes.

Amtrak really needs to issue a service alert for the CL and LSL, ideally with some information on what the problems are and when it is expected to get better. Saying nothing at all officially is not helping.

What is interesting is from what I have observed with random checks of Status Maps in recent weeks is the constant delays for the LD trains appear to be now mainly concentrated on EB, CZ, CL, LSL. The SWC, Cardinal, Crescent, the Silvers are doing better than they were in staying close to on-time. Not perfect by any means, but better.


----------



## justinslot

I was on the 29 that arrived in Chicago today--we were ahead of schedule as of Pittsburgh, but apparenly overnight we entered the Bermuda Toldeo Triangle and lost like 4 hours. Hey, at least I made the SWC.


----------



## neroden

greatcats said:


> I don't know what to say about what should be done with these freight railroads, other than make inane suggestions, but they should be ashamed of the mess they have created.


Well, if we're talking "shoulds" in an ideal world of flying ponies, the federal government would buy 'em out, print some money, hire a whole lot of new employees, build some more tracks, and fix the service problems. As has been done with a number of systems throughout the world over the years. Sadly, we are in a political situation where that simply won't happen. Woodrow Wilson tried once, using World War I as the excuse, but it was unwound very quickly. So I guess we'll have to come up with something else for now.


----------



## Barciur

What's the excuse for 30 3h40m late departure out of Chi? Again late arrival for turnaround? It was "only" 283 minutes - yesterday it was 467, so it was more understandable..


----------



## tommylicious

with tonight's 30 just having left, and last nite's 30 not even arrived yet, I'm seriously thinking about cancelling my trip next week. this is insane. tonight's 30 will be a minimum of 6 hours late, and last nite's 30 will be 12+ late. insane. i'm not going to have me and my daughter eating irradiated, canned stew on a trip that's supposed to be enjoyable. Amtrak should just shut the line down until this gets sorted. A previous poster pointed out that a service alert hasn't even been issued, with 2 trains 12 hours late in the last 2 weeks, and a mean lateness of about 4 hours. Negligence! Get another consist into the Chicago yard darnit, or just shut down the lines! The worst delays were caused by running the equipment in a too tight turnaround in Chicago.


----------



## neroden

Given the location of the delays, at this point if I were Amtrak I would be trying to temporarily reroute via Dearborn and Kalamazoo. Of course, this may conflict with the ongoing trackwork there. :-(

There should certainly be a service alert.


----------



## Barciur

From trainorders:



> This time, despite the late arrival of Train 28(25), there was sufficient time to turn the equipment...
> it was close but it got done.
> 
> But there was no qualified crew to run the train. The Toledo crew base is inadequately staffed and its
> extra board is out of people so there was nobody to send to Chicago for an on-time departure. The incoming
> crew got its rest, then took the train out at 1020pm, 3 hr 40 min late.


So that's the cause of the 30 delay...


----------



## montana mike

Pathetic!!!! So sad.

:-(


----------



## Howitzer

This is a bummer, I was planning a trip to WAS for Thanksgiving and I can normally deal with delays but 6-12 hour delays on a short weekend won't work. Hopefully the delays will ease up by October.


----------



## tommylicious

29 lost 3 hours between SOB and CHI, trashing the whole run to 6 hours late, and most likely putting tonite's 30 in major delay territory as well. What. A. Mess. Chicago yard needs to keep another CL trainset.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> 29 lost 3 hours between SOB and CHI, trashing the whole run to 6 hours late, and most likely putting tonite's 30 in major delay territory as well. What. A. Mess. Chicago yard needs to keep another CL trainset.


Where do you propose they get the equipment for that?


----------



## Ryan

AmtrakBlue said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29 lost 3 hours between SOB and CHI, trashing the whole run to 6 hours late, and most likely putting tonite's 30 in major delay territory as well. What. A. Mess. Chicago yard needs to keep another CL trainset.
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you propose they get the equipment for that?
Click to expand...


----------



## acelafan

Regarding all the delays on the Cap and LSL....I'll make another post in the Status Maps Archive Database topic ( http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/61058-amtrak-status-maps-archives-searchable-database ) but I updated my source data from John's archived status maps and now you can see all Service Disruptions and Cancellations for all trains and all dates. I think "afigg" commented on that lack of functionality and I wanted to fix it.

For example, here is a list of train 30's Service Disruptions since July 1, 2014 (6 instances, and 1 instance of Cancellations en route):

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history_file.php?date_start=7%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&train_num=30&sort=origin_date&sort_dir=DESC&sd=1&c=-1

Regarding the long delays, here is the history for #30 arriving into WAS since Sept 1, 2014. Not too good, with many delays more than a couple of hours long:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?train_num=30&station=was&date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&sort=schAr&sort_dir=DESC&limit=&co=gt&limit_mins=

Final example - a way to search for missed connections. It's a new feature I added to the database after Ryan mentioned it was hard to line up columns and compare trains using cut & paste. This link shows you Train #30 arriving into WAS and connecting with Train #91 (the southbound Silver Star). More than a dozen missed connections:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&a_train_num=30&c_train_num=91&station=was&sort_dir=DESC

You can take those links and play around with the train numbers, stations, dates, etc. I think it's all working correctly but if not please let me know and if there are other searches you would like to make. The data updates once per day in the early morning hours for the previous day's trains.

Chris J.


----------



## afigg

tommylicious said:


> 29 lost 3 hours between SOB and CHI, trashing the whole run to 6 hours late, and most likely putting tonite's 30 in major delay territory as well. What. A. Mess. Chicago yard needs to keep another CL trainset.


Both the CL #29 and LSL #49 encountered problems between the SOB and CHI stops, adding over 3 hours in further delay. I checked the Amtrak tracker several times in the early afternoon and both trains were sitting for a long time at 0 mph NE of Rolling Pairie, IN. This is a 2 track line (easily verified on Google Earth). Long delays from SOB to CHI happened to the westbound LSL and CL on Saturday as well. But the late at night eastbound CL and LSL runs did not encounter long delays getting to SOB. Could there be a daytime track work blitz that is single tracking the line somewhere between Porter and Rolling Pairie, IN? Or is it just an overloaded system with a backlog of freight trains?

As for another CL trainset, Amtrak added a 6th trainset to accommodate the EB delays which draws down the available Superliner equipment pool. For today, the SWC #4 is almost 6 hours late enroute to CHI, so a late CL departure might at least allow for connections.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

acelafan said:


> Regarding all the delays on the Cap and LSL....I'll make another post in the Status Maps Archive Database topic ( http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/61058-amtrak-status-maps-archives-searchable-database ) but I updated my source data from John's archived status maps and now you can see all Service Disruptions and Cancellations for all trains and all dates. I think "afigg" commented on that lack of functionality and I wanted to fix it.
> 
> For example, here is a list of train 30's Service Disruptions since July 1, 2014 (6 instances, and 1 instance of Cancellations en route):
> 
> http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history_file.php?date_start=7%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&train_num=30&sort=origin_date&sort_dir=DESC&sd=1&c=-1
> 
> Regarding the long delays, here is the history for #30 arriving into WAS since Sept 1, 2014. Not too good, with many delays more than a couple of hours long:
> 
> http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?train_num=30&station=was&date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&sort=schAr&sort_dir=DESC&limit=&co=gt&limit_mins=
> 
> Final example - a way to search for missed connections. It's a new feature I added to the database after Ryan mentioned it was hard to line up columns and compare trains using cut & paste. This link shows you Train #30 arriving into WAS and connecting with Train #91 (the southbound Silver Star). More than a dozen missed connections:
> 
> http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&a_train_num=30&c_train_num=91&station=was&sort_dir=DESC
> 
> You can take those links and play around with the train numbers, stations, dates, etc. I think it's all working correctly but if not please let me know and if there are other searches you would like to make. The data updates once per day in the early morning hours for the previous day's trains.
> 
> Chris J.


Thank you. Very helpful. I've been tracking "my" trains on "my" days for Sept in anticipation of my upcoming trip. This gives me a broader view. Luckily, most of my connections were made even though the incoming train was late.


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## tommylicious

if anyone is upset about NS delays on these trains, please tweet your thoughts to @nscorp so that they may be heard!


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## montana mike

Looks like both #29 and #49 have hit the NS "brick wall" again this AM after they left SOB. Both are just crawling along now (with the LSL literally right behind the CL). I also see the other Amtrak trains in the vicinity are also going very slow as well. Clearly there is a major failure by NS to get ALL trains moving thru this choke point in a decent amount of time. Is anyone aware of any significant track work that would cause this mess to continue as it has done now for months (and appears to be getting consistently worse)??


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## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> Looks like both #29 and #49 have hit the NS "brick wall" again this AM after they left SOB. Both are just crawling along now (with the LSL literally right behind the CL). I also see the other Amtrak trains in the vicinity are also going very slow as well. Clearly there is a major failure by NS to get ALL trains moving thru this choke point in a decent amount of time. Is anyone aware of any significant track work that would cause this mess to continue as it has done now for months (and appears to be getting consistently worse)??


Yep, all four are at a standstill right now (11:56 AM ET).


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## montana mike

Arrrrrgh. There must be something going on in that short stretch of trackage that is causing this mess almost every day. Mindboggling. Doesn't sound like a "one off" situation to me, since these very long delays occur now almost every day and add 3 or more hours to each one of these train's transit times. Oh, so close, yet soooooo far away.

I have reservations on the LSL back from western NY next month and plan on connecting with the EB in CHI, as I have done many times in the past with no concerns, but now I am considering other options, since I don't want to add an entire additional day of travel to a long trip. If this mess doesn't clear up soon I think I will just fly (about a 90 minute flight) from NY into ORD, as much as I love the train, the reliability of these LD connections is so bad now it is hard to do a long transcontinental trip.

:-((

Interesting Footnote: Amtrak shows #29 arriving well over 4 hours behind schedule (just before 1 PM CDT) but is still showing #49 to arrive around 2 hours late (Around 11:45 CDT), even though #49 is behind #29. Both have sat in the same spot, just east of SOB now for well over an hour, not going anywhere.

Bummer.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

And 48 has a service disruption in Cleveland.

I'll be on 49 this weekend and am not sweating it too much since my connecting train does not leave till 3:00 and it appears that they've held 3 more often than not when 49 arrived close to 3:00.


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## Orangesaint

AmtrakBlue said:


> And 48 has a service disruption in Cleveland.
> 
> I'll be on 49 this weekend and am not sweating it too much since my connecting train does not leave till 3:00 and it appears that they've held 3 more often than not when 49 arrived close to 3:00.


Good luck!

I went back over a year looking at the 49/3 connection using that judkins website (thanks to the site owner for all the work!), and it does appear as though they hold 3 if its within half an hour, making me feel a little better for when I need to make the same connection in a couple months.


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## montana mike

I don't think the Empire Builder connections fair as well though, since the EB's leave at 2:15 PM. :-(

I guess it is NS's turn in the bucket for not providing decent service to Amtrak now. If things don't improve dramatically I don't see any other option for me, but to cancel my NY to CHI train segment and to fly into ORD instead. I just looked at the airfares and I will actually save about $200 by flying--crazy!


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## montana mike

Both the CL and LSL are moving very slowly now towards CHI. Amtrak has finally provided realistic arrival times--over 5 hours late for the CL and over 4 1/2 hours late for the LSL.


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## Bob Dylan

Is there any info about Amtrak Bussing from Toledo to CHI or PGH to WAS for those folks making connections? Bound to be a lot this time of year and with a Secular Holiday as approaching as well as the High Holy Days!

And if not, are they holding the Western LD Trains ie, #21,#3,#5,#7 for #29 and #49 arrival???

If not it must be costing a bundle to put people up on Amtrak's Dime and also most of the LD Trains seem to be SOLD OUT or out of Sleepers so rebooking must be a mess!

I was on hold with AGR ( I'm Select) for 30 minutes when I called ( usual call wait on the Hot Line is about 2 mins) and the helpful Agent told me its hectic and a Real Mess, bet Amtrak Agents have it even worse!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jimhudson said:


> Is there any info about Amtrak Bussing from Toledo to CHI or PGH to WAS for those folks making connections?


Unfortunately, the worse of delays westbound is after Toledo, so they're not going to know how bad it's going to be when they get to Toledo. Maybe they should, if they don't already, bus the early connections. I think the 49 to 3 connection is still somewhat safe.

Worse case for me would be having to ride the party train to EMY :help: 

Actually, the worse case is I won't have that extra day to spend with my daughter and grandson.

I am keeping positive thoughts for my train and for the others.


----------



## montana mike

AmtrakBlue said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any info about Amtrak Bussing from Toledo to CHI or PGH to WAS for those folks making connections?
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the worse of delays westbound is after Toledo, so they're not going to know how bad it's going to be when they get to Toledo. Maybe they should, if they don't already, bus the early connections. I think the 49 to 3 connection is still somewhat safe.
> 
> Worse case for me would be having to ride the party train to EMY :help:
> 
> Actually, the worse case is I won't have that extra day to spend with my daughter and grandson.
> 
> I am keeping positive thoughts for my train and for the others.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't likely be "safe" today, as both #29 and #49 are still stuck outside elf CHI, going nowhere now, and the earliest they are going to arrive is likely well after 3 PM.

I just wonder why Amtrak is not putting something out to people on this mess, since it is getting worse rather than better. If this is an example of :just heavy freight congestion" I don't think there is any magic bullet that is going to make this go away anytime in the near future, is there???


----------



## tommylicious

29 still 0mph. Unless Amtrak gets another trainset, tonight's 30 is going to rack up another 10 hour+ delay.


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## montana mike

I don't think #48 going out tonight is going to fare much better, since it looks like both #29 and #49 will be arriving in CHI between 5-7 hours late and their turnarounds this evening will almost surely be effected by these lengthy delays. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't most of the trackage on this "problem" segment double tracked?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any info about Amtrak Bussing from Toledo to CHI or PGH to WAS for those folks making connections?
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the worse of delays westbound is after Toledo, so they're not going to know how bad it's going to be when they get to Toledo. Maybe they should, if they don't already, bus the early connections. I think the 49 to 3 connection is still somewhat safe.
> 
> Worse case for me would be having to ride the party train to EMY :help:
> 
> Actually, the worse case is I won't have that extra day to spend with my daughter and grandson.
> 
> I am keeping positive thoughts for my train and for the others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It wouldn't likely be "safe" today, as both #29 and #49 are still stuck outside elf CHI, going nowhere now, and the earliest they are going to arrive is likely well after 3 PM.
> 
> I just wonder why Amtrak is not putting something out to people on this mess, since it is getting worse rather than better. If this is an example of :just heavy freight congestion" I don't think there is any magic bullet that is going to make this go away anytime in the near future, is there???
Click to expand...

Yeah, I saw where they stopped again. :angry: :help:

If I hadn't already done the Cardinal last year, I would be looking to switch to it (I'm using AGR from TOL onward and would just switch it to CIN onward ... if there's a roomette available) but I really want to do the Hudson Valley (and it looks like the trees are starting to turn up that way  ).


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## tommylicious

amtrak.com estimating 7 hour late arrival for 29. I'm going to predict the total delay for tonight's 30 to WAS will be 10 hours.


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## Orangesaint

I wish the Cardinal were an option, but the two days I could possibly begin my trip are two days in which it does not run.

I hate that I am considering a flight to Chicago to kick off the trip now instead of 49. I'm not worried about 48's lateness as there is no connection involved.


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## n714da

After a very pleasant roundtrip aboard the AutoTrain with my famliy in June, I was looking for an opportunity to do a long distance train for business. Finally, I had an opportunity to schedule a bunch of work in Chicago, beginning with a 1:30p meeting on a Tuesday. So, I booked a bedroom on the CL departing Monday 10/6 and began looking forward to the trip. What could go wrong? I was more than prepared for the kidding from my staff about not flying this time. But if I show up late for a 1:30p meeting because my train, which was due in at 8:45a, ran more than four hours late, which appears more and more likely, I'm not going to be happy. And although I'll continue to pound the rails up and down the NEC as needed, I will be avoiding the long distance services in the future. And I agree with a previous poster: It is ridiculous that there is no note about possible/likely service disruptions for the CL/LSL on the Amtrak website.


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## montana mike

Now looks like Both #29 and #49 will be in excess of 6 hours late, and perhaps as much as 7 hours behind--amazing. They literally sat, just a few miles from CHI ALL morning long and went almost nowhere. Both moving at a snail's pace and still perhaps an hour away from Union Station. Stunning collapse of this service.


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## greatcats

I am not trying to be a know it all genius, but would a possible alternate route be via the former B&O route that served the Three Rivers until several years ago? Probably all kinds of complications, but the present situation is not acceptable.


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## jis

From reports I have seen elsewhere CSX is not faring much better than NS in their flow into Chicago either. We don;t hear about it as much because there is no passenger train on the old B&O line operated by CSX.


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## montana mike

Sounds like this is not something that will be resolved ANY time in the near future. I am going to alter my travel plans. I just cannot miss my EB connection on the 31st. Given the track record of the LSL the odds would appear to be against anyone trying to make that connection with just about any of the westbound trains now. I hate to give my travel dollars to the airlines, but not any other choice left sadly.

:-(


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## AmtrakBlue

Looks like they're hold 3 for 29, 49 & 6. They're all due in about the same time...crazy times on the platforms


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## afigg

montana mike said:


> Now looks like Both #29 and #49 will be in excess of 6 hours late, and perhaps as much as 7 hours behind--amazing. They literally sat, just a few miles from CHI ALL morning long and went almost nowhere. Both moving at a snail's pace and still perhaps an hour away from Union Station. Stunning collapse of this service.


It has been bad for the westbound CL and LSL this past week. I checked the Amtrak tracker several times in the late morning and early afternoon today and #29 & #49 were not moving at all for long periods to get from SOB to around Porter.

And still no service alerts or statements from Amtrak. They issued a service alert for one day a week track work delay of CS #11 through mid-November, but nothing on the severe delays for the CL and LSL. Perhaps those here who are active in NARP should get NARP to talk to Amtrak about issuing a statement on the situation.


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## Barciur

I was relatively at peace with all of this going on because my trip next month is not as time sensitive - I just need to make sure to make the Hiawatha at 5:08 at the latest... but.. on the 26th and today it looks like it might be cutting it very close for that Hiawatha. And it's a 8:45am arrival, having to worry about missing the 5:05pm connection is nuts.

Here's hoping that as we get closer to November things get better. I'm always in for more train time, but perhaps 9 hours each way on a weekend round trip would be a little bit _too __much_ train time


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## not_a_user

Orangesaint said:


> I hate that I am considering a flight to Chicago to kick off the trip now instead of 49.


Oh no! I'm considering reliable transportation! The horror!


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## OlympianHiawatha

Since these delays and this Thread have been going for several months, can someone in the know offer a current state of the situation involving the _*NS *_ trackwork and dispatching problems? Thanks!


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## greatcats

Just looking at status on Amtrak app, which seems to have gone berserk. Arrival times of 29 and 49 showing between 8 and 9 am - early. Somehow I don't think this is the case! What a fiasco.


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## montana mike

I sent an email to Amtrak Customer Relations about this mess early today, no reply yet. I would surmise that I may not see any reply from them though....#49 arrived this evening in CHI-town just under 7 hours late. The entire trip from western NY to CHI is only supposed to be 11 hours long--good grief. Oh, well. Perhaps when the freight people scream loud enough NS will do something.


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## OlympianHiawatha

montana mike said:


> I sent an email to Amtrak Customer Relations about this mess early today, no reply yet. I would surmise that I may not see any reply from them though....#49 arrived this evening in CHI-town just under 7 hours late. The entire trip from western NY to CHI is only supposed to be 11 hours long--good grief. Oh, well. Perhaps when the freight people scream loud enough NS will do something.


When you do get a reply you will probably get a fill-in-the-blanks Form Letter. But let's hope it is not like the one United recently sent a Customer where the blanks were left-BLANK!


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## tommylicious

I"m guessing tonight's 30 will be 6 hours late departing, and lose another 3-4 along the way.


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## montana mike

OlympianHiawatha said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sent an email to Amtrak Customer Relations about this mess early today, no reply yet. I would surmise that I may not see any reply from them though....#49 arrived this evening in CHI-town just under 7 hours late. The entire trip from western NY to CHI is only supposed to be 11 hours long--good grief. Oh, well. Perhaps when the freight people scream loud enough NS will do something.
> 
> 
> 
> When you do get a reply you will probably get a fill-in-the-blanks Form Letter. But let's hope it is not like the one United recently sent a Customer where the blanks were left-BLANK!
Click to expand...

I actually got something similar from Amtrak several year's ago and called them back to ask what the heck was going on. At the time it was somewhat humorous (and they gave me a $100 voucher for their goof up).....

I see Amtrak has not updated departure times for either #30 or #48 for tonight, even though #30 is already over two hours late already! My nephew works for CSX and he is even aware of the mess in Ohio and Indiana. He believes this is not something that will go away soon, since NS has been telling CSX to expect "worsening" movement times through the end of 2014 on this line. Gosh, I didn't think it could get much worse, but I guess we shall see. I wonder, if NS is telling other railroads about this mess they are in and what to expect, why hasn't Amtrak proactively gotten ahead of this and tried to come up with a game plan that will at least salvage these two routes. I would expect they told Amtrak management the same thing they told others? Right now these routes are going down in flames, big time.

:-(


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Silence from 60 Mass about this Newest Mess speaks Volumes about Amtrak's Management!

There needs to be a Plan in place Yesterday to deal with this Cluster Flub!

Doesn't anyone know how to run a damn Railroad anymore??!!!!


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## montana mike

Now approaching 3 hours past departure time and Amtrak still shows the normal anticipated departure of 6:40 PM on their web site. #48 also has no information on any delayed departure either. We all know doo doo happens, and yes, this is a big time mess, but don't the Amtrak "suits" realize that they would be far, far better off with both current and potential travelers if they just got out in front of these SNAFUs and both let people know what is really happening and also what (if anything) they are doing to try to mitigate the mess?

Good Public Relations is critical. Ignoring the disaster that is unfolding just makes passengers angry, frustrated, upset and in some cases, sadly "never ever again" people. Which is so sad, because when train travel does work it is an enjoyable experience.


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## tommylicious

I wonder what they're telling people waiting now 3 hours for this train!


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## afigg

When it rains, it pours. LSL #48(9/28) is 11 hours late departing SYR. It was stuck in Cleveland for over 4 hours, Departed ELY 3 hours and 40 minutes late, CLE 8 hours and 5 minutes late. According to trainorders, a high tension power line fell onto the CSX tracks, then a train reportedly hit the downed line, shutting down traffic east of Cleveland for much of the day. #48 is now running into delays across upper state NY on CSX. 

If the traffic jam between South Bend and Porter is going to be the same tomorrow for #29 and #49, Amtrak should be looking at finding a detour route.


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## neroden

There's a really, really obvious detour route through Michigan... even if the trains have to rejoin NS from Porter to Chicago, that stretch seems to be OK now. AFAIK the line from Dearborn to Toledo is still moving as well.

South Bend, Elkhart, Waterloo, and Bryan can be bused to Niles and Toledo.

I don't know how to contact Amtrak management, but this changfe should be made immediately.


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## montana mike

#30 didn't make it far from CHI before coming to a halt. Who knows how many hours they will lose between CHI and SOB tonight!


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## neroden

If there are still problems from Chicago to Porter, that may explain why the Michigan line reroute hasn't happened; little point if the trains just get stuck west of Porter. Michigan Line to South Shore to the Illini/Saluki route would be the best short-term reroute, but South Shore Line and CN are probably being difficult, as they don't like to accept reroutes on short notice.

Some reports on other forums indicate that the Michigan trains are losing hours from Chicago to Porter, so this may beht case.

FWIW, the removal of the diamonds at Englewood will probably cause additional short-term delays by requiring the entire line to be shut down for several hours...


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## neroden

Orangesaint said:


> I wish the Cardinal were an option, but the two days I could possibly begin my trip are two days in which it does not run.
> 
> I hate that I am considering a flight to Chicago to kick off the trip now instead of 49. I'm not worried about 48's lateness as there is no connection involved.


49 to Toledo (at which point it's morning), bus from Toledo to Chicago?


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## montana mike

Looks like we may have a replay of yesterday's mess in OH and IN. Both #29 and #49 are beginning to lose time and have slowed to a crawl as they head west. #30 lost just under 4 hours as it went thru the mess in those two states last night. It is going to be a very late arrival for the CL in DC and the LSL in NYP later today


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## tommylicious

Average delay thru NS, either way, seems ~3+ hours. Yesterday it was more like 7. Hopefully they get this sorted.


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## montana mike

Not sure how they are going to do this in the short run. What I have heard is that there are just way too many trains trying to get thru not enough tracks right now and there are two constants: (1) the number of trains will not be going down (in fact an increase is expected), (2) the number of tracks isn't going to change in the foreseeable future. With those two givens it would appear the 3-6 hour delays (depending somewhat on time of day) thru this area will likely be something everyone will have to live with until trains are rerouted or additional trackage is provided.......and has been stated, the Amtrak woes, though great, are nothing compared to the many, many freight customers who are not getting their goods in a timely manner. My nephew (the CSX person) says that, more than anything else, will eventually be the catalyst to get something done as a more meaningful "fix".


----------



## AmtrakBlue

From this thread yesterday: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/61546-worst-case-scenario-with-late-trains/



> I just talked with AGR and the agent told me they were bussing those with connections between Toledo and CHI!!


----------



## montana mike

Well, at least they are trying to do something. Not sure it is worth $350 for a "roomette" from western NY to CHI if I get bussed from TOL, so if this continues to be the only way the LSL is going to make any connections I think I will just fly to CHI on my return trip. I hate to do that....darn.


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## AmtrakBlue

I'm supposed to switch from coach (paid) to a roomette (AGR) in Toledo. Might be switching to a bus instead. Depending on how late 49 is into TOL, I hope to at least get breakfast before boarding the bus.


----------



## Railroad Bill

That would be my fate as well. Hope they will reimburse some voucher value for the lost AGR sleeper from TOL to CHI. Lot of difference between a bus and a roomette :huh:


----------



## jis

That they will. You will get a voucher for possibly a hundred dollars or two. This is how you convert AGR points back into spendable cash, spendable of course only on Amtrak tickets.

I was bustituted once between Albany and Buffalo on LSL around a huge CSX cockup which later came out to be a collision between two freight trains. I did get a satisfactory voucher for that inconvenience.


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## AmtrakBlue

If I do get bused, I'll have to start thinking of things to do in Chicago to kill time. :help:

I had put that on the back burner because I figured I wouldn't have time to do anything. And actually, that idea doesn't bother me because I won't have to worry about getting back to the station in time.  

Que Sera, Sera...


----------



## Bob Dylan

According to the Status Maps #29 made it into CHI today @ 1242pm, 3+ Hours Late but made the Western Connections!

#49 us still shown between SOB and CHI?????? The Drama continues!!

Looking forward to Amtrak's Announcement of the Plan to rectify this Mess!!! Isn't Joe Boardman in Illinois and Indiana on a Junket, er PR trip????


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## AmtrakBlue

Jim, 49 was right behind 29 and should be there now. It's easier to follow this drama using Amtrak's Track-a-Train. 

But if they bused the connecting passengers from Toledo, then they are probably not happy that the trains made the connections, especially if they had rooms. 

Personally, for that "short" trip, I'd be more happy knowing I'm in Chicago to catch my connecting train then sitting in a room(ette) worrying about making the connection.

Also, it helped that both 29 and 49 made it to OH in good time (less than an hour down).


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## Barciur

So we can expect 30 to depart closer to actual time today than in days past since it didn't cross the magical 4 hour late line?


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## tommylicious

what's involved in "turning around" 29 to become 30?


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## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> what's involved in "turning around" 29 to become 30?


Cleaning, restocking, any maintenance that might be needed, etc. And a rested crew.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> So we can expect 30 to depart closer to actual time today than in days past since it didn't cross the magical 4 hour late line?


One would hope. However, the CZ #6 (9/28) is currently over 4 hours late which could hold up a #30 departure a bit. The EB #8 is having a "good" day at 2:41 late departing Columbus, WI. The glitch is SWC #4, currently 9 hours late. But at that late, they won't hold #30 for it. LSL #48 might get held for a very late SWC.
The bad news is just how late the current eastbound LSL #48 (7+ hours at BUF) and CL #30 (>7 hours at COV) are.

I wonder how much Amtrak has spent on buses, hotels, rebates, and extra crew hours over the 3 months?


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## montana mike

As our local stationmaster said, somewhat in jest, several weeks ago, when we were talking about all of the summer SNAFUs: It seems sometimes like taking the train from point A to Point B, on schedule is a rarity these days (this just after the Empire Builders had a string of 8-12 hour delayed arrivals)!!


----------



## richm49

When these trains run into huge delays as they currently are and the delays run 6-7+ hours or more does Amtrak provide additional meal service?If your train was due in at 8:45 A.M. and got in at 4 P.M. do they serve you lunch in the dining car? Or dinner if it runs that late? Or do you just sit there not only late but hungry too? Anybody know?


----------



## montana mike

I can only speak from experience on very late Empire Builders. They do make an effort to serve the passengers a meal when a train is very late (for example arriving at 10 PM at night instead of 4 PM). It may not be fancy, but is usually something decent.


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## tommylicious

You mean the irradiated WWII surplus stew?


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## neroden

afigg said:


> I wonder how much Amtrak has spent on buses, hotels, rebates, and extra crew hours over the 3 months?


I don't know, but honestly Norfolk Southern ought to be reimbursing Amtrak for the sum total. Probably isn't.


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## OlympianHiawatha

tommylicious said:


> You mean the irradiated WWII surplus stew?


The Dinty Moore Beef Stew is actually pretty good, provided you do a little doctoring to what flops out of the can. When an extra Supper was forthcoming on a late _*Meteor*_ last Summer I told the LSA if we were getting Stew to hold at the next station stop so I could get some Onions, Peppers, Hot Sauce and Ale and put some legs under the stuff.


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## montana mike

Arrrgh. The LSL is still sitting in CHI, not expected to leave until around midnight. So they will start their journey already 2 1/2 hours late! I wonder why the delay? The inbound LSL wasn't that terribly late. Oh, well. Never a dull moment here.


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## neroden

Connections from the west, maybe? :-( SWC is apparently very, very late today.


----------



## montana mike

Wow, #48 let CHI about 2 hours late, BUT, then proceeded to drop another 4 hours in the short distance between CHI and SOB and is now well over 6 hours late-second day in a row heading east-what a mess. Good Grief!!! Terrible.

:-(


----------



## jis

It seems that neither CSX nor NS have a clue on what it takes to operate the Water Level Route reasonably. Apparently they both bit off more than they can chew in acquiring significant parts of Conrail.


----------



## montana mike

Shall we assume that the mega delays in this stretch of track is basically just too much traffic trying to squeeze thru the area and nothing more? This AM's 4 hour crunch was even worse than two days ago, when it took 29 and 49 3 hours to transit the same area. Bummer. It was bad enough to start 2 hours late from CHI, but then to get hit with another 4 hours of delays just after departing must have been disheartening to all on board. I guess they will arrive in NYP verrrry late and the turn around there may get delayed, further compounding the problem. A never-ending frustration to be sure.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Connections from the west, maybe? :-( SWC is apparently very, very late today.


No, LSL #48(9/30) left CHI at 11:23 (1:53 late) and SWC #4(9/28) arrived at CHI at 1:03 AM CT. #48 may have been held for crew rest or equipment servicing. Whatever is going on, the most serious delays have shifted to between west of South Bend and Hammond, IN (from random checks of the Amtrak tracker), although Elkhart to South Bend is also prone to delays eastbound in the morning.

CL #30(9/30) left CHI 51 minutes, then SOB 3 hours and 11 minutes late, then did ok with no additional delays, getting to PGH 3 hours late. It was stopped in PGH for over an hour (?), but could get to WAS in time for an early dinner. With #48(9/30) over 6 hours late at TOL and CSX's upper state NY ahead of it, it is facing another AM arrival at NYP.

There is a long thread in a forum at Trains Magazine website on the NS meltdown with posts from someone monitoring the radio that indicate that track work projects in Indiana are a major factor in the delays between SOB and CHI. Along with a lot of freight traffic as we know.


----------



## neroden

So the delays have moved from west-of-Toledo to west-of-South-Bend. If the delays extend as far west as Hammond, then a Michigan reroute won't help. :-(

But the delays seem to be largely due to trackwork. So maybe there's hope for October. The commissioning of Englewood Flyover *should* create a more fluid railroad...



> It was stopped in PGH for over an hour (?),


NS/CSX handoff, probably. If the "receiving railroad" is having congestion, there's often extra delays right at the handoff point; we've seen this happen at Cleveland with the LSL as well.


----------



## montana mike

There is a long thread in a forum at Trains Magazine website on the NS meltdown with posts from someone monitoring the radio that indicate that track work projects in Indiana are a major factor in the delays between SOB and CHI. Along with a lot of freight traffic as we know.


Looking at the NS web site it would appear that their construction efforts will continue thru much of October.....


----------



## jis

And today we are seeing that sort of delay in handoff from NS to NS in Toledo too. 

The question that comes to my mind is ... why would not Amtrak warn its customers about potential delays of several hours due to track work on specific routes about which they know that to be a fact? Perhaps it really is time to take up the issue of a passenger bill of rights for the rail passengers, along the lines of what has been done for airline passengers. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.


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## tommylicious

2-3.5 hours i can live with on a LD. but 5-10++ along with surplus WWII gruel rations and 1950s cold war surplus civil defense chemical toilets...not so much. they should stock for a complete other meal service.


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## montana mike

Amazing. From CHI to TOL it took poor #48 over 8 hours--Ouch! I see both #29 and #49 are again stopped east of SOB waiting, and waiting. Hopefully they will only lose perhaps another hour or so and arrive only 3+ hours late today.

It will be interesting to see if things improve after NS completes the track work at the end of October a planned.


----------



## neroden

Well, the "biggest chokepoint on [NS's] entire national network" is about to be fixed with Englewood Flyover opening. When NS also finishes their other trackwork in Indiana, they will have zero excuses for the network meltdown.

NS should be paying financial damages, especially if this is due to installing incompetent dispatching software. (By the way, everything I've heard about NS's new dispatching software screams "you idiots, you should never have even considered buying this" to me, as a programmer. But the NS execs probably don't know jack about programming or computers.)


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## montana mike

Thanks for the update. When is the Englewood Flyover scheduled to open?


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## AmtrakBlue

49(30) is off the Track-a-Train map. It was stopped west of SOB when I went to lunch.


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## montana mike

Still stopped apparently. Meanwhile Amtrak shows #29 arriving between 4 and 5 hours late in CHI. Looks like #49 will be even later (likely missing most of not all western connections--again), since it is now quite a bit behind #29. Rats.....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> Still stopped apparently. Meanwhile Amtrak shows #29 arriving between 4 and 5 hours late in CHI. Looks like #49 will be even later (likely missing most of not all western connections--again), since it is now quite a bit behind #29. Rats.....


Or maybe hooked 49 up to 29 like they did with 3 & 5 a while ago. Maybe the conductors & engineers were getting bored at that long stop. :giggle:


----------



## afigg

montana mike said:


> Amazing. From CHI to TOL it took poor #48 over 8 hours--Ouch! I see both #29 and #49 are again stopped east of SOB waiting, and waiting. Hopefully they will only lose perhaps another hour or so and arrive only 3+ hours late today.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if things improve after NS completes the track work at the end of October a planned.


#48(9/30) sat for over 2.5 hours in TOL to get to >8 hours late; arrived at 9:14 AM, departed 11:42 AM. Possibly a crew hours and shortage problem as TOL is a crew change stop. The westbound CL is sitting there in Indiana, so there may be another 5 to 6+ hour late arrival at CHI. 
Should have looked for a NS Service update page before. This one was posted on September 12. Writes about the temporary crew transfers, new hires, and the December completion of the $160 million capacity expansion at the Bellevue, Ohio, classification yard. Among the five maintenance bullets:



> 1. Expect one to four hours of train delay for projects east of Toledo scheduled through October 22, 2014.
> 
> 4. Expect one to four hours of train delay for projects between Pittsburgh and Cleveland scheduled through October 2, 2014.


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## jis

So why wouldn't Amtrak place that information on their website for their customers?

Even today Unite still has a banner on their website about possible delays through Chicago due to the fires several days back. Shouldn't Amtrak treat its passenger at least as well as United, which is reputed to be one of the worse outfits among the US airlines?


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## Bob Dylan

See my post about Boardmans Dog and Pony show re the Hoosier in Indiana and Chicago! Fiddling while Rome Burns!


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## montana mike

Not looking good for #29 or #49 today. Looking like both got stuck in the "black hole" after Toledo. Now looking like both will be verrrry late into CHI, losing perhaps 5 hours in that short stretch. Amazing.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Any more info on busing from TOL or SOB for those making CHI connections?

And are they busing PGH- WAS for the same reason? Looks like its hopeless for the Late Shore!!!!!


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## montana mike

A brief discussion with an Amtrak rep disclosed they don't really know what to do at the moment. They were and are aware of the NS melt down (her words btw), but short of stopping both trains, which they don't want to do, she said they are just "hunkering down" with the mega delays each day. NS has told them to expect 4-6 hour delays thru the OH-IN stretch, for the "foreseeable future" as the railroad is both struggling with a big increase in traffic and are behind in track work--sort of a perfect storm that created this mess. She did mention bussing would happen on a day to day basis, but was not sure whether they opted for this today, since both the CL and LSL were actually doing quite well until between SOB and TOL. And, oh yes, because of this mess and people missing connections some sleeper pax, IF they can be accommodated, are not getting comparable accommodations on later trains. Just wonderful.

I am waiting a bit, but I may end up flying both ways to the east coast from ORD if this fiasco gets any worse.


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> NS has told them to expect 4-6 hour delays thru the OH-IN stretch, for the "foreseeable future" as the railroad is both struggling with a big increase in traffic and are behind in track work--sort of a perfect storm that created this mess.


That sounds strangely familiar.

Can we get some non-idiots to run a railroad, because it looks like BNSF and NS are abject failures.


----------



## montana mike

Good Point. At least BNSF appears to have turned the corner a bit (with generous help from a very padded "new" schedule). I guess all we can do is watch things "evolve". I found it interesting that the railroad community was well aware of this meltdown in OH and IN and was rerouting as much as possible away from this area. I can imagine what it would be like if they weren't doing this! I have taken the LSL a number of times in the past and the CL several times and they actually had a decent track record when I rode them. Execution and delivery of a product or service is only as good as the weakest link and that short stretch between TOL and CHI is one weak link.


----------



## jis

Meanwhile how about Amtrak posting something for the benefit of their customers on their web site?


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## montana mike

I did bring that up, saying that it would be better for people to know this information. She said it was way above her pay grade. I think the suits at Amtrak are worried that ridership would fall off the cliff if all the facts were made available. Shortsighted to be sure, but not far from the mark I would wager.

3 PM (CDT) Update: Both the CL and LSL are still not at CUS-looking like perhaps 3:45 PM now?? Looks like they both dropped close to 6 hours on the short trek from TOL to CHI. Stunning!! It would appear Amtrak is holding a couple of the western LD trains (e.g. #7 will depart almost 2 hours late) to try to make some sense of this mess.


----------



## benale

I noticed 29 was nine hours late getting into Chicago the other day. What a nightmare! At that late hour I'm sure 3,5 and 7 didn't wait. Only connection that was possible was City Of New Orleans. People plan for months to take cross country trips starting on 29 and 49 and connecting with the Western trains. Until recently, this wasn't a concern. Now it is.. We are taking 29 connecting with 7 next spring. I hope by that time things are back to normal.

If 29 and 49 arrive before 3 do the connecting trains wait? We have every day planned with the train and many non refundable hotel reservations)Priceline) in California ad Oregon for our trip. If 29 is six,seven hours late our whole trip is messed up. I hate bustitution, but say it's Noon and 29 is in or near South Bend at a standstill, I would gladly take a bus ride to ensure I get to Union Station in time to make the 2:05 7 departure. We are driving to Toledo to start our trip. If things don't improve, we may have to drive to Chicago to make sure we catch our train.

I really hope things are better. This is truly a mess. I never thought I'd have to worry about making a Western connection.


----------



## RRCOMM

It has been suggested that we need a rail passenger bill of rights, I agree. To start the ball rolling I wrote this to Amtrak via Email:

I have a trip scheduled that I already paid for. Your service in to Chicago from the east is a wreck and you have not informed passengers what terrible delays they face. Be honest, tell the truth or I will go to congress. Please send this to Mr. Boardman.

Gotta start somewhere....


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## montana mike

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. I will contact them as well.


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## AmtrakBlue

Well, apparently 49 lost its GPS in IND. It arrived right behind 29 ( 3:49 / 3:52). Could it have been hooked onto 29 with that close of arrival times?

Looks like they held 3 and 5.


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## montana mike

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, apparently 49 lost its GPS in IND. It arrived right behind 29 ( 3:49 / 3:52). Could it have been hooked onto 29 with that close of arrival times?
> 
> Looks like they held 3 and 5.


and #7. While this helps, it just compounds the delays all over the country. Better than having to put up hundreds of really pissed off pax though


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Meanwhile how about Amtrak posting something for the benefit of their customers on their web site?


This is what baffles me. Why has Amtrak not put out a service alert, even one with vague platitudes, warning that passengers should be prepared for significant delays between Cleveland and Chicago? Saying nothing makes passengers angrier when they realize that the CL and LSL are routinely running 3,4,6, even 10 hours late.


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## jis

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile how about Amtrak posting something for the benefit of their customers on their web site?
> 
> 
> 
> This is what baffles me. Why has Amtrak not put out a service alert, even one with vague platitudes, warning that passengers should be prepared for significant delays between Cleveland and Chicago? Saying nothing makes passengers angrier when they realize that the CL and LSL are routinely running 3,4,6, even 10 hours late.
Click to expand...

I consider this more than anything else, an utter failure of management or a total disregard for the well being of and lack of respect for the paying customers. Even a simple bill of rights which says something like - when the operator is aware of pretty regular failure to run on schedule beyond more than 2 hours, a notification to that effect must appear on the public we site and each passenger must be notified forthwith of the generally expected delay as notified by the host railroad.
Clearly in case of LSL and CL Amtrak and the public who know to look at NS's web site have been notified, but Amtrak has been remiss in not passing that information onto its customers even being fully aware itself of the possibility.

I wish NARP would get of its pompous duff and at least deal with this simple thing. Be an advocate for the poor passenger instead of just being an advocate for Amtrak, or change your name to NAAA (National Association of Amtrak Advocates)


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## afigg

Ok, so October 1 was another very bad day for the westbound CL and LSL between Toledo and Chicago. Which means late eastbound departures from CHI tonight compounding the delays. Many of the Michigan service trains are getting badly jammed up as well from what I noticed.

Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine posted a column yesterday (Sept 30) on the NS meltdown: The new normal is highly abnormal. Lots of specifics in his column on the delays on Monday and Tuesday and the reasons why. Track work for Indiana Gateway projects are contributing to the mess.

I don't agree with his premise that what is occurring on the NS northern line is the new normal. I have been using the outstanding tools provided by several of forum members, Amtrak Status Maps, the archives, and the Archive database search tools. Outside of the CL, LSL, EB, CZ problems, the other LD trains have been doing ok over the past month. Since August 28, the northbound #52 AutoTrain has arrived early 27 out of 32 times, between 18-23 minutes late 3 times (which barely counts as late for the AT), and over 1 hour late twice. The Adirondack has been getting into Montreal early on a regular basis since late August. The #51 Cardinal arrived at CHI early or on-time 10 out of 13 times in September! (A daily Cardinal from WAS and NYP to CHI might be faster than the CL and LSL at the present).

The NEC is running into a lot of 10 to 20 minute delays, but I expect much of that can be attributed to the track projects in DE, NJ, and New Haven Line. So it is not all bad news or gloom & doom for on-time performance across the system.


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## jis

But at issue in this thread is the LSL and the CL. So whether the Atlantic Coast Line is doing well or not is a bit irrelevant. And of course why Amtrak refuses to let anyone know that there is a known mess in hand still remains a mystery.


----------



## Eric S

montana mike said:


> A brief discussion with an Amtrak rep disclosed they don't really know what to do at the moment. They were and are aware of the NS melt down (her words btw), but short of stopping both trains, which they don't want to do, she said they are just "hunkering down" with the mega delays each day.


"Don't really know what to do" - seems that issuing some sort of service advisory/delay alert would be a start.

Anybody at NARP noticing this? Following up with Amtrak as to why nothing but silence from them?


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## montana mike

I have fired off an email to NARP about this mess. I will share whatever reply I receive. Meanwhile my nephew, the CSX guy sent me a note saying that freight customers are "howling" over the situation in Ohio and Indiana and have been for months. If the NS freight clients can't get them to clean up their act I don't think Amtrak is going to have much luck either. Sad to say. Gee, if you go onto NS's website you would think all is just going wonderfully and all of their clients are just as happy as a bee in honey!!!


----------



## MARC Rider

I'm sitting in the Club Acela in WUS, and they're showing a 7:00 PM arrival for #30. Maybe they'll let us board 188 early, and I can see it come in.

I'm a little concerned, as I've gor a reservation for 30 for Thursday next week. I'm thinking of switching it to the Cardinal if they have any roomettes left. It seems the Cardinal was more or less on time today. (I also wouldn't have to worry about a connection in WUS, as #50 goes straight therough to Baltimore.


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## OlympianHiawatha

I can only imagine the logistics nightmare this is causing for Catering as they now have to deal with the possibility of the Diners having to sling out up to 2 extra meals. Expenses on these routes have no doubt gone straight down the toilet and then some!


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## jis

Yeah. Surprisingly, everyone's favorite whipping boy CSX seems to be doing more or less OK these days while everyone's darling NS is thoroughly down the toilet this summer.


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## MARC Rider

I'm on 188 now. Didn't see any sign of 30 while sitting in the station, but Amtrak.com train tracker isn't showing the train at all. The Cardinal #50 was shown as being 24 minutes late into BAL and 6 minutes early into NYP.


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## afigg

MARC Rider said:


> I'm on 188 now. Didn't see any sign of 30 while sitting in the station, but Amtrak.com train tracker isn't showing the train at all. The Cardinal #50 was shown as being 24 minutes late into BAL and 6 minutes early into NYP.


Status Maps shows #30(9/30) having arrived at WAS at 6:53 PM, 5 hours and 43 minutes late, It lost several more hours between Connellsville and Martinsburg. Looks like #19 was held for connections at WAS, yet another delay cascade effect caused by the problems in IN and OH.

LSL #48 is having its third consecutive really, really late trip to NYP. :help:


----------



## amtrakmichigan

Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but could Amtrak use the South Shore Line from just south of CHI to SOB? I know S.S. is a electric line, but I know there is a handful of cross overs between the SS line and NS so obviously there wouldn't be clearance issues with at least locomotives. If this would physically work, this could be the perfect answer to the total time keeping nightmare between CHI and SOB.

If this wouldn't work then use the Michigan line from Porter, In. to Wayne, Mi. (CSX crossing with a wye) then straight south to Toledo. Yes it would take a little longer, but at least it would have some sort of predictable time keeping.


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## MikefromCrete

Both schemes are possible. I believe there is a connection between the NS and SS in South Bend and on the Chicago end, the CL and LSL could switch over t the CN at Kensington and follow the route of the CONO to Union Station. Whether the South Shore would accept the additional traffic is the big question. A connection from the Michigan Line to the South Shore is possible, but would have to be built. Detouring via the Michigan Line to Porter would require CSX cooperation on the east. Much of the congestion is west of Porter so that wouldn't help. So, both are possible, but I think the actual execution of either is doubtful.


----------



## montana mike

The hits just keep on coming. #48 is already estimated to be at least 2 1/2 hours late departing CHI tonight, which likely means by the time it gets to NYP tomorrow night it may be 9+ hours late just like #48 is today---arrrrrgh! Ditto for the poor #30 as well, estimated at more than 2 1/2 hours late departing CHI and a likely pokey slow trip to WAS tomorrow.

This just keeps getting worse and worse.

:-((


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

And they are still allowing folks to book _*Capitol Limited*_ to_* Silver Star*_ connection in DC, with the _*Star *_leaving at 3:05 pm! I wonder when was the last time that connection actually hit?


----------



## richm49

montana mike said:


> A brief discussion with an Amtrak rep disclosed they don't really know what to do at the moment. They were and are aware of the NS melt down (her words btw), but short of stopping both trains, which they don't want to do, she said they are just "hunkering down" with the mega delays each day. NS has told them to expect 4-6 hour delays thru the OH-IN stretch, for the "foreseeable future" as the railroad is both struggling with a big increase in traffic and are behind in track work--sort of a perfect storm that created this mess. She did mention bussing would happen on a day to day basis, but was not sure whether they opted for this today, since both the CL and LSL were actually doing quite well until between SOB and TOL. And, oh yes, because of this mess and people missing connections some sleeper pax, IF they can be accommodated, are not getting comparable accommodations on later trains. Just wonderful.
> 
> I am waiting a bit, but I may end up flying both ways to the east coast from ORD if this fiasco gets any worse.


It is these ongoing absurd delays that have caused me to abandon my plans of using the 49/LSL from NYP-CHI. There is no way anyone can feel comfortable trying to make a West Coast LD connection in CHI with either 49/LSL or 29/CL. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who can adjust his schedule to the 3/day/week schedule of 51/Cardinal. I have modified my original plans from 49/LSL to 51/Cardinal as a result of this OH-IN delay mess. Have been tracking the Card for last 5 weeks or so and it has been either EARLY or ON TIME arriving CHI 11 of the last 16 trips!!!Of the 5 times it was late, the delays were 40,41,52 and 27 minutes late. Only once was it over an hour late( 1 hour,21 minutes). Either 29/CL or 49/LSL would love to have that type of on time performance.Of course I have to depart early in the morning on the Card vs late afternoon for LSL (6:55 A.M. vs 3:40P.M.) but that is small price to pay for the peace of mind feeling confident I will make my connection with 3/SWC with time to spare in CHI. And as an added bonus I even snagged a low bucket bedroom( not roomette) on the Card for $400; that is even less than I would have paid for roomette ($520) on LSL!


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## montana mike

Well #30 left 3 1/2 hours late and #48 still had not left more than 2 1/2 hours behind. what a way to begin a trip. Bummer.


----------



## acelafan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> And they are still allowing folks to book _*Capitol Limited*_ to_* Silver Star*_ connection in DC, with the _*Star *_leaving at 3:05 pm! I wonder when was the last time that connection actually hit?


I was curious about that, too. Here is some data which shows 23 missed connections Sept 1 to Sept 30. I marked the misses with ** at the beginng:

Arriving 30 Departing 91	
Sch AR Act AR Sch DP Act DP
** 09/30/2014 1:10 PM	11:33PM 09/30/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/29/2014 1:10 PM	8:21PM 09/29/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/28/2014 1:10 PM	6:15PM 09/28/2014 3:05 PM	3:18PM
** 09/27/2014 1:10 PM	11:47PM 09/27/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/26/2014 1:10 PM	7:24PM 09/26/2014 3:05 PM	3:11PM
** 09/25/2014 1:10 PM	7:05PM 09/25/2014 3:05 PM	4:18PM
** 09/24/2014 1:10 PM	10:45PM 09/24/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/23/2014 1:10 PM	3:47PM 09/23/2014 3:05 PM	3:31PM
** 09/22/2014 1:10 PM	6:18PM 09/22/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/21/2014 1:10 PM	5:07PM 09/21/2014 3:05 PM	3:54PM
** 09/20/2014 1:10 PM	4:53PM 09/20/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/19/2014 1:10 PM	7:01PM 09/19/2014 3:05 PM	4:12PM
09/18/2014 1:10 PM	3:00PM 09/18/2014 3:05 PM	3:13PM
** 09/17/2014 1:10 PM	4:00PM 09/17/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
?? 09/16/2014 1:10 PM	3:27PM 09/16/2014 3:05 PM	
** 09/15/2014 1:10 PM	4:05PM 09/15/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
09/14/2014 1:10 PM	3:24PM 09/14/2014 3:05 PM	4:03PM
09/13/2014 1:10 PM	1:51PM 09/13/2014 3:05 PM	3:23PM
** 09/12/2014 1:10 PM	3:28PM 09/12/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
09/11/2014 1:10 PM	3:20PM 09/11/2014 3:05 PM	3:39PM
** 09/10/2014 1:10 PM	5:10PM 09/10/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/09/2014 1:10 PM	5:38PM 09/09/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/08/2014 1:10 PM	3:12PM 09/08/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/07/2014 1:10 PM	5:22PM 09/07/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/06/2014 1:10 PM	7:35PM 09/06/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
09/05/2014 1:10 PM	3:12PM 09/05/2014 3:05 PM	3:23PM
** 09/04/2014 1:10 PM	5:29PM 09/04/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/03/2014 1:10 PM	4:43PM 09/03/2014 3:05 PM	3:05PM
** 09/02/2014 1:10 PM	4:22PM 09/02/2014 3:05 PM	3:08PM
09/01/2014 1:10 PM 09/01/2014 3:05 PM	3:15PM


Source URL:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=12%2F31%2F2014&a_train_num=30&c_train_num=91&station=was&sort_dir=DESC

Several of the missed connections were close.


----------



## Barciur

30 is 8 hours late, 29 only 1,5 hrs at this point but it's about to be sucked into the Toledo Triangle...


----------



## andersone

But remember

the Cardinal is the slow boat to China Chicago

but it is real close to the on time boat to Chicago


----------



## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> Both schemes are possible. I believe there is a connection between the NS and SS in South Bend and on the Chicago end, the CL and LSL could switch over t the CN at Kensington and follow the route of the CONO to Union Station. Whether the South Shore would accept the additional traffic is the big question.


There used to be a connection in South Bend, but I don't think it exists any more. The ROW is there but can't see any track on it in Google satellite view.


----------



## montana mike

Oh, so close, but stopped! It looked like, for a moment, that #29 and #49 would make it thru the NS mess with minimum delays today, until just east of Chesterton. Both have now been stopped for about 30 minutes. Perhaps this is just a brief delay. One can hope, but if this last week's delays are any indication, they may be stuck there for much of the AM. Time will tell.

12:35 PM CDT Update: Both #29 and #49 are still not in CUS yet. Looks like they will be between 4 and 5 hours late. Better than the last several days, but still terrible, most of this time was lost in Indiana again.....


----------



## Barciur

4hrs 24 minutes late into CHI for 29 - I guess it's late enough to cause another departure delay. Snowball effect.


----------



## tommylicious

I am on tonight's 30. I predict a departure time of 8:40pm and an arrival time of 6pm into WAS. Glad I have my passenger comfort kit!


----------



## Barciur

Good luck, that 6pm arrival into WAS might be very optimistic given how 30 today is doing!


----------



## jis

If your train gets delayed submit a complaint e-mail to the federal Surface Transportation Board at [email protected] including:


Your train’s number (it’s on your ticket/reservation confirmation);
The approximate time(s) and location(s) of the delay(s);
The date(s) of the incident(s); and
Why you believe the delay was caused by the freight railroad.
Let us see if we can collectively gain STB's attention by crowd sourcing......

Information courtesy of All Aboard Ohio.


----------



## tommylicious

yesterday's inbound 29 was over 7 hours late; today's 29 did a little better hopefully that helps.



Barciur said:


> Good luck, that 6pm arrival into WAS might be very optimistic given how 30 today is doing!


----------



## afigg

montana mike said:


> Oh, so close, but stopped! It looked like, for a moment, that #29 and #49 would make it thru the NS mess with minimum delays today, until just east of Chesterton. Both have now been stopped for about 30 minutes. Perhaps this is just a brief delay. One can hope, but if this last week's delays are any indication, they may be stuck there for much of the AM. Time will tell.
> 
> 12:35 PM CDT Update: Both #29 and #49 are still not in CUS yet. Looks like they will be between 4 and 5 hours late. Better than the last several days, but still terrible, most of this time was lost in Indiana again.....


In my checks of Amtrak Track-a-Train earlier today, #29 and #49 were not moving for a LONG time about 8-10 miles east of the connection with the Michigan line at Porter. Meanwhile, several westbound Michigan service trains were able to run through Porter and continue west, albeit at a slower speed. So the choke point that added ~2 hours to the delay appeared to be east of Porter.

The choke point may be the Indiana Gateway Project #1 to install #20 universal crossovers as shown on the diagram linked to below that is still on the net from a few years ago. If that is the case, how long does it take to install a #20 crossover? Of course, NS may be performing other track maintenance and replacement work in combination with the crossover installation.







With the CZ #6 (9/30) running over 12 hours late, no need to hold the CL or LSL for CZ connections, even with already late departures. The EB #8(9/30) is running almost 6 hours late, so the LSL could get held if it was ready to go at the normal time.


----------



## montana mike

Thanks for the detailed information. We are all aware that construction and maintenance is a normal part of any rail operation of course, but one would think that the RR would take this into account for all customers and try to minimize the delays. Oh, well. It will be interesting to see how late the CL and LSL are tonight and whether they hold them for another every late EB, now back over 6 hours behind schedule. Arrrgh.


----------



## MARC Rider

#30 looks like it's now (~6:00 PM) running over the Sand Patch Grade. They're calling for a 10 PM arrival in WUS.


----------



## neroden

montana mike said:


> A brief discussion with an Amtrak rep disclosed they don't really know what to do at the moment. They were and are aware of the NS melt down (her words btw), but short of stopping both trains, which they don't want to do, she said they are just "hunkering down" with the mega delays each day. NS has told them to expect 4-6 hour delays thru the OH-IN stretch, for the "foreseeable future" as the railroad is both struggling with a big increase in traffic and are behind in track work--sort of a perfect storm that created this mess. She did mention bussing would happen on a day to day basis, but was not sure whether they opted for this today, since both the CL and LSL were actually doing quite well until between SOB and TOL.


Did you suggest to her that Amtrak could reroute through Michigan? With 4-6+ hour delays on the existing route, *it would be faster*, and it would certainly be more *consistent*.


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> Can we get some non-idiots to run a railroad, because it looks like BNSF and NS are abject failures.


At this point, I'd prefer the British Rail management team from the 1950s/1960s -- the idiots who decided that building new steam locomotives was the way to go. They may have been bleeding money, but the trains were running on time.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine posted a column yesterday (Sept 30) on the NS meltdown: The new normal is highly abnormal. Lots of specifics in his column on the delays on Monday and Tuesday and the reasons why. Track work for Indiana Gateway projects are contributing to the mess.


Mr. Frailey's earlier columns agree with my analysis: the aged "pygmies" (his word) running the Class Is are mired in the past, and somehow can't comprehend the fact that railroading is *expanding* and they need to *expand*.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/09/20/should-the-chinese-expand-u-s-railroads.aspx

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/08/17/outrages-on-the-rails-the-real-story.aspx

If I were running BNSF, I could solve all the problems quite quickly; I'd phone Buffett, tell him the dividend was cancelled this year; call the head of training and recruitment and start a serious program to hire a lot more people; issue more bonds; have the marketing department tell me where shipping demand is increasing, have the operations department tell me where they need extra capacity to feed that demand, and build it. It would a bit trickier for NS, which has to float on the stock market, but it should be possible.

I'm not sure things will get any better unless the execs die off and are replaced by younger people who understand that this is an *expanding* business.


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> A connection from the Michigan Line to the South Shore is possible, but would have to be built.


Correction: this connection already exists west of Michigan City station; it's via the NIPSCO industrial tracks used to service the power plant. Avoids the Class Is entirely.



> Detouring via the Michigan Line to Porter would require CSX cooperation on the east.


No, it wouldn't.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine posted a column yesterday (Sept 30) on the NS meltdown: The new normal is highly abnormal. Lots of specifics in his column on the delays on Monday and Tuesday and the reasons why. Track work for Indiana Gateway projects are contributing to the mess.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Frailey's earlier columns agree with my analysis: the aged "pygmies" (his word) running the Class Is are mired in the past, and somehow can't comprehend the fact that railroading is *expanding* and they need to *expand*.
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/09/20/should-the-chinese-expand-u-s-railroads.aspx
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/08/17/outrages-on-the-rails-the-real-story.aspx
> 
> If I were running BNSF, I could solve all the problems quite quickly; I'd phone Buffett, tell him the dividend was cancelled this year; call the head of training and recruitment and start a serious program to hire a lot more people; issue more bonds; have the marketing department tell me where shipping demand is increasing, have the operations department tell me where they need extra capacity to feed that demand, and build it. It would a bit trickier for NS, which has to float on the stock market, but it should be possible.
> 
> I'm not sure things will get any better unless the execs die off and are replaced by younger people who understand that this is an *expanding* business.
Click to expand...

Of course you'd be fired the moment you told Buffett the dividend will be cancelled this year.


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> Of course you'd be fired the moment you told Buffett the dividend will be cancelled this year.


That's not how Buffett works. Look at the history of some of his other companies. He gives management their head. He doesn't fire company execs unless they've been losing money for a decade or more. He *gets* the idea of reinvestment from retained earnings.

This is why this should be easy for BNSF, but much harder for NS (who might face a board revolt or a hostile takeover like the one threatened against CSX).


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> A connection from the Michigan Line to the South Shore is possible, but would have to be built.
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: this connection already exists west of Michigan City station; it's via the NIPSCO industrial tracks used to service the power plant. Avoids the Class Is entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> Detouring via the Michigan Line to Porter would require CSX cooperation on the east.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it wouldn't.
Click to expand...

Hmm, detouring through an industrial complex doesn't seem like the best way to do this.

As far as CSX is concerned, a previous poster proposed using a csx line from Toledo to Dearborn. I'm not too familiar with the Detroit-Toledo rail system, but if not CSX then some other freight line would have to be persuaded to let Amtrak use its route.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you'd be fired the moment you told Buffett the dividend will be cancelled this year.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how Buffett works. Look at the history of some of his other companies. He gives management their head. He doesn't fire company execs unless they've been losing money for a decade or more. He *gets* the idea of reinvestment from retained earnings.
> 
> This is why this should be easy for BNSF, but much harder for NS (who might face a board revolt or a hostile takeover like the one threatened against CSX).
Click to expand...

And all this would cost how much money and take how long? I don't think any of these actions are as easy as you seem to think they are.


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> A connection from the Michigan Line to the South Shore is possible, but would have to be built.
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: this connection already exists west of Michigan City station; it's via the NIPSCO industrial tracks used to service the power plant. Avoids the Class Is entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detouring via the Michigan Line to Porter would require CSX cooperation on the east.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it wouldn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm, detouring through an industrial complex doesn't seem like the best way to do this.
Click to expand...

It's not ideal, no. The NIPSCO connection has been used before, however, on planned detours of the Michigan Line trains. It's a very short connection, you can see it on Google Maps.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Michigan+City,+IN&hl=en&ll=41.714923,-86.916618&spn=0.022937,0.033345&sll=42.746632,-75.770041&sspn=5.776255,8.536377&oq=michigan+c&hnear=Michigan+City,+LaPorte+County,+Indiana&t=m&z=15

(OK, longer than I thought; about 1.5 miles)



> As far as CSX is concerned, a previous poster proposed using a csx line from Toledo to Dearborn. I'm not too familiar with the Detroit-Toledo rail system, but if not CSX then some other freight line would have to be persuaded to let Amtrak use its route.


The Conrail route is usually used when Amtrak takes detours via Michigan, which has been done before. Conrail seems to be pretty cooperative...
There's actually a hell of a lot of trackage between Detroit and Toledo. CSX is an alternative, so is CN, but Conrail has the most capacity.

http://knorek.com/RR/SAA/SAAIndex.htm


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you'd be fired the moment you told Buffett the dividend will be cancelled this year.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how Buffett works. Look at the history of some of his other companies. He gives management their head. He doesn't fire company execs unless they've been losing money for a decade or more. He *gets* the idea of reinvestment from retained earnings.
> 
> This is why this should be easy for BNSF, but much harder for NS (who might face a board revolt or a hostile takeover like the one threatened against CSX).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And all this would cost how much money and take how long? I don't think any of these actions are as easy as you seem to think they are.
Click to expand...

Well, you're wrong; like many fools, you simply ASSume that the people in charge know what they are doing; this is a terrible assumption.

It would have been easy for BNSF; but Rose & Ice were fools.

It's not just me saying this; you can dig up the magazine columns. A lot of commentators who know what they're talking about (like I do) were saying that BNSF had a tremendous advantage after being acquired by Berkshire Hathaway, because BNSF could afford to make the capital investment which it needed without looking over its shoulder at the stock market. BNSF *could have* made the capital investment it needed, and handled the predicted bumper crop, predicted oil business, expanding intermodal business, etc. with poise and style.

Matt Rose and Carl Ice proceeded to *utterly waste* that advantage. This is an example of how bad management can destroy stockholder value. Because Buffett doesn't micromanage, he won't fire them for this, but they deserve a chewing-out.


----------



## neroden

Perhaps this is the most on-point of Frailey's columns:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2014/09/29/you-just-don-39-t-get-it.aspx


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I found this on Amtrak's Service Disruptions page today:	Significant Delays between Chicago and Washington/New York/Boston via Cleveland	Effective through January 12, 2015

Passengers traveling aboard the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited may experience significant delays due to heavy freight congestion along the routes. Over recent weeks, both east and westbound trains have typically encountered delays of more than four hours. Amtrak will continue to work with NS Railway, CSX and other carriers to restore dependable service along these routes.

Passengers are strongly urged to check the status of their train on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps or call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245) for the most up-to-date departure and arrival times.

Current on-time performance data is available on Amtrak.com, including responsibility for each element of delay. This information is also presented to passengers when booking travel on the website and is available elsewhere from Amtrak, including these passenger notices.

We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.

PSN 1014-02


----------



## Metra Electric Guest

So the talk about shifting to the SS in Michigan City made me wonder if the following was possible, if only in the interest of getting to Chicago, if not CUS. Have the delayed trains switch to SS tracks in South Bend and switch to a SS freight locomotive and whisk the train right into Millennium Station perhaps stopping in Michigan City, Gary and 55-56-57 along the way. Doesn't really help those connecting at Union but a few buses could be waiting at Van Buren on the busway or right outside the South Shore platforms on Lower Randolph to take connecting passengers to Union. Since it looks like there is no track connection, hire the SS to have a train meet Amtrak and transfer everyone over one of their trains and follow the above route into Chicago. Again, not ideal, but beats waiting for hours to get into Chicago and for people whose final destination is Chicago (other than transferring to Metra) Randolph Street is arguably better since you have indoor connections via the Pedway to the Red and Blue Lines, a no street crossing (for the moment) connection to the rest of the CTA Lines and easy access to the loop and North Michigan Avenue.

I'm sure I'll be laughed out of here though...


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'd think that having Charted Buses in SOB for those making connections from #29/#49 in CHI would be the cheapest and easiest solution for Amtrak!

In the case of a Total Meltdown even busing from TOL-CHI would be better than missing connections or holding the Western LD Trains!!!

Amtrak's notice is boiler plate that is a fill in the blank puff job, where's their course of action to help with this ongoing Mess???!!!!!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

The last thing I want to see when I ride a train is Bustitution but Jim has a good idea regarding having buses standing by in South Bend. From there it is a quick flash to the Loop and could save a couple hours for the connecting pax. Since this would likely become a regular event, Amtrak also needs to have a set compensation for affected pax and be able to cut Vouchers right on the spot.


----------



## benale

So the advisory is through mid January? I feel it may be extended after that. Nothing is more frustrating than having the first leg of a cross country trip clouded by the uncertainty if a Western connection will be made. Two,three hours seems to be the norm lately leaving time to catch 3, 5 and 7. I noticed last week 29 got into Chicago 8 hours late and I'm sure the connecting trains have been long gone.

A stand by bus at South Bend seems to be the only solution until this mess is cleared up. Knowing we would make the connection would certainly give passengers peace of mind. We have a 29 to 7 connection in June. Missing 7 would mess up our two week vacation. I hope things are back to normal by then.


----------



## Metra Electric Guest

The one real problem with bustitution from SOB to Chicago is winter - they are in the Lake Michigan Lake Effect Snow belt between Gary and South Bend, so buses could be even worse than a delayed train in January. The real solution is more tracks...

And why the Amtrak and SS stations are not shared (or at least why there isn't a shared station in addition to the airport) is another matter.


----------



## afigg

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I found this on Amtrak's Service Disruptions page today: Significant Delays between Chicago and Washington/New York/Boston via Cleveland Effective through January 12, 2015


Good. Amtrak finally posted a service alert, even if it is a boilerplate one. Did complaints here and from others cause Amtrak to post one?

As for delays through January, the move of all Metra Rock Island trains to the Englewood Flyover and primary parts of the project should be completed soon. if the Indiana Gateway and NS track maintenance projects shut down before winter weather kicks in, then the delays will be due just to heavy traffic. The CL and LSL may not get back to mostly on-time, but I would expect the situation to improve. Then again maybe not.

Today, CL #29(10/2) got through the SOB to CHI stretch losing one hour this time; got in to CHI at 11:23 AM. No long stops as far I could tell, but very slow going from just east of Porter to the IN/IL border. LSL #49 however got held for a long time around Porter, taking the hit this time, arriving at CHI at 1:32 PM.

We will see if CL #30 can depart close to on-time tonight, but unfortunately the CZ #6 and TE #22 are both running over 4 hours late inbound to CHI as I write this. EB #8(10/1) is over 6 hours late, so the LSL #48 could get held departing CHI even if the equipment is turned around for an on-time departure. Perhaps the CL and LSL will get a break over the weekend and only run a couple of hours late each way.... :huh:


----------



## afigg

jimhudson said:


> I'd think that having Charted Buses in SOB for those making connections from #29/#49 in CHI would be the cheapest and easiest solution for Amtrak!
> 
> In the case of a Total Meltdown even busing from TOL-CHI would be better than missing connections or holding the Western LD Trains!!!


The delays have shifted to be between Toledo and Chicago with the SOB-CHI section noticeably bad only in the past week. The pattern may shift again. Which means the buses really would have to operate from Toledo. which is a pretty long haul to Chicago on buses with tight seating. I did a TOL-CHI bustitution last July and rather not do that again.


----------



## amtrakmichigan

I suggested using CSX tracks not from Dearborn, but from Wayne, Mi.(Wayne Junction). It would be more direct to Toledo than to run all the way to Detroit and than South to Toledo. However I believe that the trains would have to pull past the single wye track, and back into the wye at Wayne moving east or west. I believe passenger speed limits on most of this run is 50 to 60mph.

I still believe the best solution to this mess is using the Indiana South Shore electric line from CHI to SOB.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> If I were running BNSF, I could solve all the problems quite quickly; I'd phone Buffett, tell him the dividend was cancelled this year; call the head of training and recruitment and start a serious program to hire a lot more people; issue more bonds; have the marketing department tell me where shipping demand is increasing, have the operations department tell me where they need extra capacity to feed that demand, and build it. It would a bit trickier for NS, which has to float on the stock market, but it should be possible.


Berkshire Hathaway does not pay dividends, so there is no dividend to cancel. Berkshire Hathaway has a market capitalization of $174 billion, so BNSF is just part of its vast holdings. If BNSF needs to raise capital for capacity expansion, BNSF can do so on the commercial market.


----------



## Barciur

Just curious: does that kind of an advisory affect voucher situations? I.e. if you get a 5 hour delay and complain, is it more likely that they will say "well there is a service advisory" and opt not to issue a voucher?


----------



## KVG_DC

jis said:


> If your train gets delayed submit a complaint e-mail to the federal Surface Transportation Board at [email protected] including:
> 
> 
> Your train’s number (it’s on your ticket/reservation confirmation);
> The approximate time(s) and location(s) of the delay(s);
> The date(s) of the incident(s); and
> Why you believe the delay was caused by the freight railroad.
> Let us see if we can collectively gain STB's attention by crowd sourcing......
> 
> Information courtesy of All Aboard Ohio.



That last point is where I'd fail to be able to provide much evidence.


----------



## tommylicious

I was on thursday's 30. 23 hours total. left Chicago only 40 mins late, but got in WAS 5 hours late. great crew in dining (Adam, Kima, as well as chef) and SCA named Cliff was excellent. 25 mph most of the way. btw, that sliding door rattles like crazy b/w the bedrooms. had to fashion a "shim" out of folded up magazine cover stock and jammed it in there. Duct tape is a must. taped all door seams. very quiet. top bunk support pole rattles a lot too...more difficult to shim that one. wish there was more luggage space in bedroom. running downstairs to get pyjamas, breakfast clothes change was a drag, esp unlocking and re-locking luggage. company on the train was delightful. scanner was super nice to have. some of the nicest scenery and most remote places i've ever seen.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Metra Electric Guest said:


> The one real problem with bustitution from SOB to Chicago is winter - they are in the Lake Michigan Lake Effect Snow belt between Gary and South Bend, so buses could be even worse than a delayed train in January. The real solution is more tracks...


More tracks is best, however the interstate between those points are toll roads. Well staffed and equipped. I travel those roads way too much and find it a relief to enter the tollway.


----------



## montana mike

Interesting observation this AM. Amtrak puts out the "memo" yesterday to expect delays of 4 hours or longer on the CL and LSL from now until January and lo and behold today ALL of the CL's and LSL's are more than 4 hours late in transit. Purely coincidental I am sure, but how ironic. It's like the host RR's said, OK, not to worry dispatchers, you can delay the pax trains all you want now.......


----------



## AmtrakBlue

But what is bad is they're 4 hours late before hitting the area where they expect to be held 3 to 4 hours. Hope they're bussing the connecting passengers from Toledo.

I'll be on 49 tomorrow. I know someone who will be on 29 tonight.


----------



## neroden

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I found this on Amtrak's Service Disruptions page today: Significant Delays between Chicago and Washington/New York/Boston via Cleveland Effective through January 12, 2015


Finally. Thank you, Amtrak. (I emailed the website team about the lack of notice yesterday -- I wonder if that was what got them to put up a notice?)


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I were running BNSF, I could solve all the problems quite quickly; I'd phone Buffett, tell him the dividend was cancelled this year; call the head of training and recruitment and start a serious program to hire a lot more people; issue more bonds; have the marketing department tell me where shipping demand is increasing, have the operations department tell me where they need extra capacity to feed that demand, and build it. It would a bit trickier for NS, which has to float on the stock market, but it should be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Berkshire Hathaway does not pay dividends, so there is no dividend to cancel.
Click to expand...

BNSF pays a dividend to Berkshire Hathaway, which goes into Berkshire Hathaway's insurance/investment pot. (Internal company accounting.)

My point is that BNSF should retain this capital for reinvestment rather than spitting it out to the insurance parent which doesn't need it.

Yes, I know more about this than you. I do investing for a living.


----------



## montana mike

AmtrakBlue said:


> But what is bad is they're 4 hours late before hitting the area where they expect to be held 3 to 4 hours. Hope they're bussing the connecting passengers from Toledo.
> 
> I'll be on 49 tomorrow. I know someone who will be on 29 tonight.


Yup, I noticed that as well. Not a good sign at all.


----------



## neroden

FWIW, January 12 is a *weirdly* specific date -- quite a long way in the future, but in the middle of a month, and on a *Monday*. I guess the new (twice a year) schedule usually comes out around then, so maybe that's it...

Anyway I wonder if Amtrak has some specific plans to actually change things then. Implementing the Performance Improvement Plan recommendations would be nice (I can dream, eh?).


----------



## montana mike

Perhaps like they have done with the Empire Builders: A new "temporary schedule" that adds more time to the transit? This isn't going away any time soon, so my guess is that the announcement may involve a longer run.


----------



## neroden

With the current delays, it would be faster to go via Michigan. On either of several routes.


----------



## Trainbuff T

See the review of Amtrak posted on Chicago Yelp on October 1, 2014. This may have motivated the addition of service alerts on Amtrak.com on Oct. 3.


----------



## montana mike

I spent almost an hour on the phone with a great AGR agent last night trying to salvage my trek back east on the EB's and LSL. I reluctantly added another dray to my travels at the front end of my trip-fully expecting that there is a good chance I am going to miss my EB/LSL connection in CHI-town. I was going to bite the bullet and fly, until I saw the cost--ouch! On the way back I kept things status quo, figuring that, OK, if I miss my connection in CHI again, they can put me up for the night and I just arrive home a day late. One heck of a way to try to plan a trip, but as the agent said, not many options open now. He was somewhat surprised Amtrak had not pulled the plug on connections for these trains. He too had the information that most connections were being missed for the westbound trains and that the EB's connectability with the LSL was a "crap shoot" at best.

Much of his time lately has been spent trying to "repair" the messes that have been created by hundreds of missed connections each week he said. He also stated it has not been a fun time on the phone with most people. I could certainly understand the issues he and the others were facing.


----------



## Guest

I have heard on monday a new interlocking with universal crossovers will be placed in service just east of porter


----------



## neroden

The interlocking east of Porter should help long term (it's one of the Indiana Gateway projects). It won't help short term, because the current problem is gross mismanagement by Norfolk Southern; they keep running out of crews on their freight trains, but keep sending more freight trains through anyway. They ought to embargo traffic until they can catch up.

There was a well-thought-out comment by someone else at another forum: he said that most businesses now had software which tracked exactly how much business they could handle, and could tell potential new customers immediately if they couldn't handle extra business right away. Apparently the Class Is are in the stone age of IT, aren't tracking their capacity, and are routinely accepting business they can't actually serve.


----------



## montana mike

Good point. Even in my business (Marketing Agency) we have software that enables us to schedule clients so we don't "overbook". The worst thing you can do is over promise and underperform!


----------



## Railroad Bill

As of 3:45pm eastern both LSL, which passed the CL at Cleveland this morning, are sitting west of South Bend. CL lost 3 hours between PGH and Alliance this morning. ?? No connections made to the Texas Eagle 21. They are still holding SWC and CZ, but for how much longer is in doubt. Again I say. What a mess!! :angry:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Uh. Oh. 49 turned around (on Track-a-Train). Does it normally have 2 engines? Maybe the lead died and they're switching them causing the GPS to record an easterly direction? Also, 29 had passed 49. Another reason I wonder if there was engine problems.


----------



## Railroad Bill

29& 49 are still waiting to enter Chicago as of 5:30pm CST. Yes, the CL has passed the LSL in a great battle to see which train can get to CHI first. Neither of course made their western connections today so everyone in that category was a loser again.


----------



## greatcats

How revolting!!!! Call in the National Guard!! What a sorry mess.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Hopefully since they were so late getting into OH they bussed them from TOL.


----------



## Barciur

Jeebus. So I'm starting to seriously worry about making 5:05 pm connection to the Hiawatha. That's the last train I can get on for the event I am travelling to. Ugh. It's now twice in the past week that they didn't make THAT connection.


----------



## Orangesaint

After today's latest mess, I just bit the bullet on my trip and added an overnight in Chicago as to not worry about the LSL-SWC connection any longer. Sacrifices a day to sight-see San Francisco, but it was for the best. I've never actually stopped and did sight seeing in Chicago before so there's good in it. Amtrak agent on the phone was pleasant and very knowledgeable of the issues concerning the LSL.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Railroad Bill said:


> 29& 49 are still waiting to enter Chicago as of 5:30pm CST. Yes, the CL has passed the LSL in a great battle to see which train can get to CHI first. Neither of course made their western connections today so everyone in that category was a loser again.


I dread to see what time tonight's (tomorrow mornings?!?) 48 and 30 will depart since once those sets make it in they have to be turned.


----------



## benale

Today's 29 was almost nine hours late into Chicago missing all LD connections with the exception of The CONY. This is absurd. Were passengers with connections bused from Toledo or South Bend? If this keeps up, AGR should allow an overnight in Chicago at the passengers expense and be able to take the next days connection on the same reward.

I never thought i would have to worry about making a connection in Chicago the same day, This ungodly mess is giving Amtrak headaches galore and probably losing many potential customers. I really hope this is cleared up by next Spring.


----------



## Slasharoo

what are the chances that now the arrival of 48 into New York is averaging after 10:30 pm, they start serving dinner?


----------



## neroden

Higher odds if you complain to Amtrak and demand dinner. Do it now.


----------



## Railroad Bill

AmtrakBlue said:


> Hopefully since they were so late getting into OH they bussed them from TOL.


Not sure whether they bussed anyone from TOL. But I believe I paid for a train ride to Chicago in sleeper, not a .... bus ride on the Indiana Turnpike. :angry:


----------



## BrokenConnection

OlympianHiawatha said:


> And they are still allowing folks to book _*Capitol Limited*_ to_* Silver Star*_ connection in DC, with the _*Star *_leaving at 3:05 pm! I wonder when was the last time that connection actually hit?


Amtrak broke the connection between train 30 and 91 yesterday. Arrow has stopped allowing bookings for travel beginning on October 20. Passengers will be protected through October 20. Anyone scheduled to travel beginning with train 30(20) and beyond will have to rebook to another train for a guaranteed connection. Original fare will be protected for rebookings on the same dates of travel.


----------



## richm49

Railroad Bill said:


> 29& 49 are still waiting to enter Chicago as of 5:30pm CST. Yes, the CL has passed the LSL in a great battle to see which train can get to CHI first. Neither of course made their western connections today so everyone in that category was a loser again.


29/CL and 49/LSL westbound pax really need to consider using 51/Cardinal to make LD West Coast or other vital connections in CHI.I know the Card's limited 3/day/week schedule can be tough to work around but you just can't beat it's on time performance.The Card services both NYP and WAS so it can be used by both CL and LSL pax. For the last 6 weeks, that's 18 trips, it has been either EARLY or ON TIME arriving CHI the last 13 out of 18 times!!! That is 72.2% on time record compared to virtually 0% for 29/CL and 49/LSL. Plus, the 5 times it was late were all under an hour except for 1 trip that arrived 1 hour,21 minutes late. When was the last time the CL or LSL got in even as early as 1 hour,21 minutes late?Yes I know it is a circuitous long trip and leaves early in the morning but you will make your CHI connections most assuredly.I have already dumped my 49/LSL tix for the 51/Card myself and will just get up early that morning and relax onboard knowing that my connection to 3/SWC will be made.


----------



## Barciur

The last time CL got in fairly early was actually yesterday with 2,5 hours early, and then on September 22nd it was only 25 minutes late.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Agh! Track-a-Train is even behind schedule. Some statuses haven't been updated for over an hour. 49 has been running at 70 mph just outside of Elyira for at least an hour with a status of est arrival of 49 mins late. 29 is showing a service disruption and just west of SKY when in reality it's about 5 miles east of TOL (per an AUer on board).


----------



## montana mike

Wow, #30 is just under 12 hours late, still in IN this AM and #48 is over 8 hours late in IN!!! This situation is getting worse by the day-sadly.

:-((


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I don't trust those times. The websites are not getting updated in a timely fashion. Though some times are more up-to-date then they were earlier today.


----------



## montana mike

Given the report from the CL this AM it would appear they are valid! Just awful.


----------



## Barciur

Any idea what happened with the pax on 30? Were they put on the train and made to sit there or stayed in the Union station or what happened?


----------



## afigg

So, to summarize, Saturday Oct. 4 was a terrible day for the westbound #29 and #49.

#29(10/3) departed PGH 30 minutes late, and it went bad from there. Departed ALC 3 hours and 21 minutes late, TOL 5 hours and 11 minutes late, arrived CHI 9 hours and 4 minutes late at 5:49 PM CT.

#49(10/3) lost 2.5 hours between SYR and BUF, departed CLE 2 hours and 32 minutes late, arrived CHI 7 hours and 58 minutes late at 5:43 PM CT. ahead of #29.

The eastbound CL #30(10/3) and LSL #48(10/3) did not do as badly, both arriving at their destinations over 4 and 1/2 hours late.

With very late arrivals at CHI, the CL #30(10/4) and #48(10/4) were late in departing, and because the Amtrak website is down, we do not know how they are doing. But it appears that Amtrak is turning #29(10/4) at Toledo, possibly as a partial equipment and schedule catchup.

If the reports are correct that NS is taking control of the NS-Rock Island crossing in Chicago this weekend with Metra trains moving to Englewood Flyover and that one of the crossover projects in IN is being completed this weekend, we will see if things improve for the LSL and CL.


----------



## montana mike

I won't hold my breath on this. The first days of the changeover might be as rough as before. Nothing appears to be going smoothly on this line lately. But we must hope for the best indeed!

I assume with all of the bus rides Amtrak is compensating the passengers for this mess?


----------



## RampWidget

I'm aboard (or was aboard) 29(4) WAS-CHI.

We were awakened by the SCA around 05:15A and informed that the train was going to terminate at TOL and all pax Bustituted to destination.

Explanation given was "a service disruption" but other than vague references to the NS, there was nothing more specific.

I sure am ready to get off this bus!

I will say that the on-board & operating crews handled the situation well, under the circumstances.


----------



## Stan Ames

We are on 30 eastbound

At 1:30 we are in Toledo

Tomorrrows 30 is on the other track

Not known yet if we will be bused from Pittsburgh

last night delay due to crew and then broken lounge which was cut out and a 2nd cross country cafe placed in

Diner (CCC) is a mob scene. Lunch starts at 2:30

Stan


----------



## benale

Were all the Western connections made with bustitution from Toledo?


----------



## pennyk

benale said:


> Were all the Western connections made with bustitution from Toledo?


Yes. And 3 of the western trains were delayed due to "mechanical issues."


----------



## pennyk

RampWidget said:


> I'm aboard (or was aboard) 29(4) WAS-CHI.
> 
> We were awakened by the SCA around 05:15A and informed that the train was going to terminate at TOL and all pax Bustituted to destination.
> 
> Explanation given was "a service disruption" but other than vague references to the NS, there was nothing more specific.
> 
> I sure am ready to get off this bus!
> 
> I will say that the on-board & operating crews handled the situation well, under the circumstances.


I was on 29 also. I was in the 2900 car and second bus to leave Toledo. Bus driver Russ, a big guy.I agree with you.


----------



## Barciur

What time did you get to Chicago on the bus?


----------



## pennyk

Barciur said:


> What time did you get to Chicago on the bus?


A little before noon. There was a fire at a bank a block away and canal street was closed, so bus had to go around a couple of blocks.


----------



## Barciur

Good to know. Thanks.

I wonder what happened to pax that were 9 hours late to CHI? Were they bussed, too?


----------



## richm49

montana mike said:


> Wow, #30 is just under 12 hours late, still in IN this AM and #48 is over 8 hours late in IN!!! This situation is getting worse by the day-sadly.
> 
> :-((


So glad that I bailed from the LSL and moved my tix to 51/Cardinal. It might be slow and long and not have a real dining car but I will get to CHI on time.No buses for me. I paid for and want to relax in my sleeper car.


----------



## justinslot

Was supposed to be on the 30 tonight from Chicago, am now on a bus to Toledo apparently to meet the 30.


----------



## Barciur

Keep us informed on the status of your trip since amtrak.com is down, if you will! We'll all appreciate that.


----------



## justinslot

Will do, as long as my batteries hold out. I guess they've decided to circumvent some of the problem areas entirely.


----------



## Barciur

It'll be interesting if this holds for longer. Also - just curious. How did they deal with the Amtrak IT system being down and all the tickets?


----------



## upset customer

10-5-2014 LATE...due into Chicago 9:45 AM, It;s 7:06 PM and still not there. With no good explanation from crew. Over 9 hours LATE... this is out of control crazy. Am Trak needs improvement. Biggest waste of our subsidized tax money you could image $1.4 Billion in 2012. OUCH


----------



## Barciur

Thought they bused everyone from Toledo?


----------



## jebr

upset customer said:


> 10-5-2014 LATE...due into Chicago 9:45 AM, It;s 7:06 PM and still not there. With no good explanation from crew. Over 9 hours LATE... this is out of control crazy. Am Trak needs improvement. Biggest waste of our subsidized tax money you could image $1.4 Billion in 2012. OUCH


Yeah, it's really a shame that they have to turn around because private rail companies fail to follow the law and give Amtrak priority so they can meet schedule. We really should crack down on private corporations squandering taxpayer money like that.


----------



## justinslot

Barciur said:


> It'll be interesting if this holds for longer. Also - just curious. How did they deal with the Amtrak IT system being down and all the tickets?


Not sure of that, I had a preprinted ticket and I wasn't paying attention to anyone who needed tickets (was more interested in how much bar time I was going to get.)


----------



## Stan Ames

8:15 PM The 10/4 30 is in a yard east of Pittsburgh changing pilots

Just announced train will go on to DC tonight so no busses

a little more delay and we will get nearly a full nights sleep and connect to a NEC train in the morning

glad we are in sleeper

Stan


----------



## Barciur

So the 10/4 30 is about 15 hours late at this point?


----------



## pennyk

Barciur said:


> Thought they bused everyone from Toledo?


Everyone on 29 was bused. Apparently upset passenger was on 49.


----------



## Barciur

Ah, I saw "9:45" and thought something was not right but thought it was for eastern time. All makes sense now.


----------



## Stan Ames

10:02PM. Just left Pittsburgh on 10/4. 30

Schedule had a 5:20 AM departure so now approaching 17 hours late

Dinner shortly

Stan


----------



## justinslot

Bus got to Toledo around midnight. Now we're waiting for some tardy buses. One of them has my checked baggage hopefully.


----------



## afigg

Another epic bad day for the CL and LSL. Now that the website and train status is back up, #48(10/4) has arrived at Albany 9 hours and 24 minutes late.

Don't see complete data yet, but #30(10/4) arrived SOB 10 hours and 31 minutes late, PGH 16 hours and 41 minutes. The number of hours late is almost the scheduled trip time from CHI to WAS!

Meanwhile, #29(10/5) and #49(10/5) are heading westward, into the breech once more.


----------



## ugh

2am and train #30 still sitting at Toledo where the bus left us two hours ago.


----------



## justinslot

WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR A BUS.


----------



## justinslot

And the train left Toledo at 3:15 AM.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Sounds like 49 is being bused from TOL to CHI. And since we're only about 30 mins down heading into CLE, don't think we'll get breakfast in the diner. Glad I packed pop tarts.

Am glad not to have to worry about my connection.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Traveling from Chicago to New York or Washington by Amtrak doesn't sound like fun. I don't do buses. Sad, I remember when there were 4 railroads offering passenger train service from Chicago to New York and one had 2 routes. You could leave any time of the day. Long Distance passenger trains in the USA are just about dead and at the Railroad board rooms, they are cheering.


----------



## Railroad Bill

AmtrakBlue said:


> Sounds like 49 is being bused from TOL to CHI. And since we're only about 30 mins down heading into CLE, don't think we'll get breakfast in the diner. Glad I packed pop tarts.
> 
> Am glad not to have to worry about my connection.


Sorry Betty. I thought with your good time into CLE you would get your sleeper in TOL and enjoy a train ride to CHI. 

I see CL 29 lost two hours into PGH last night and is now running behind you at Sandusky. I am sure their fate will be the same as yours.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I think they're doing 1) because of the uncertainty & 2) to not have to send 30 & 48 out from CHI.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'm on bus now waiting for departure


----------



## n714da

I'm on 29 tonight to Chicago. Should I assume they will be stopping the train tomorrow morning at TOL and putting passengers on buses? It makes operational sense, given the unpredictability of significant delays over the last few weeks. But, honestly, this was supposed to be a fun and different way of getting to a business meeting, not a vignette from"Trains, Planes, and Automobiles." (Sympathies to those of you out there on the buses this morning!) I just called the Diamond Desk at Delta and put myself on a 5:00p flight out of Reagan. Next I'm going to call Amtrak and see what they have to say. But likely I will be in a Chicago hotel tonight instead of a bedroom in 2900, which is a shame.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Yes, I'd say it's most likely 49 & 29 will bus from TOL to points beyond & 48 & 30 will bus from CHI to TOL for the foreseeable future.

And I certainly won't mind if I'm proven wrong.

Blame NS, not Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

There is really no excuse for busing all the way to Chicago when Amtrak could reroute via Michigan. Which Amtrak still can do.

Boardman needs to show some sense.

As for NS, if they're not paying damages to Amtrak and all the freight shippers who've been delayed... well, then they have too much power over contract writing and need to be nationalized or re-regulated.


----------



## Everydaymatters

neroden said:


> There is really no excuse for busing all the way to Chicago when Amtrak could reroute via Michigan. Which Amtrak still can do.
> 
> Boardman needs to show some sense.
> 
> As for NS, if they're not paying damages to Amtrak and all the freight shippers who've been delayed... well, then they have too much power over contract writing and need to be nationalized or re-regulated.


----------



## tommylicious

So typical of a consumerist society: Production Parts Placed Before People. Sad, sick.


----------



## tommylicious

30
Capitol Limited
To Washington, DC -
Union Station (WAS) 1:10 pm
Sun Oct 5, 2014
5:35 am
Mon Oct 6, 2014
Arrived: 16 hours and 25 minutes late. From Washington, DC -
Union Station (WAS) 1:10 pm
Sun Oct 5, 2014


----------



## Rob Creighton

What would stop Amtrak from putting out a revised schedule with padding if they know there are going to be delays of at least 4 hours? I know they'd probably need to work with NS to do that and get approval -- but wouldn't that just take the pressure off of everyone? No one seems to be winning with this mess. I'm sure there might be good reasons I haven't thought of why the can't / don't want to... it just seems like if this stuff is going to be ongoing... that might be a solution that yaknow lets their customers know what's really happening.


----------



## neroden

Everydaymatters said:


> I had a discussion with my granddaughter about this. She works for NS and claims that because the freight is time sensitive, they have priority.


Worth telling her that that's.... blatantly illegal and has been for a very long time.
Would she care to testify before the STB about what part of management gave her the idea that NS prioritizes freight trains over passenger trains? (Which is illegal.)

From the US Code:

© Preference Over Freight Transportation. - Except in an

emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation

provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight

transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless

the Board orders otherwise under this subsection.

To my knowledge, there are no outstanding Surface Transportation Board orders making exceptions to this rule. This is *absolute priority* and any dispatcher who violates this is *breaking federal law*.

It would be most useful to have testimony from people such as your granddaughter, testimony that management has told employees to prioritize freight trains over passenger trains. She would contradict the Class I management claims that they follow the law and give passenger trains priority. Enough testimony of this sort would probably get the upper execs of the Class Is imprisoned for conspiracy.


----------



## neroden

Rob Creighton said:


> What would stop Amtrak from putting out a revised schedule with padding if they know there are going to be delays of at least 4 hours?


The problem is that there is no schedule whatsoever which can reliably get through the completely-non-functioning, frozen-up NS Chicago Line. :-( This is why some of us have been suggesting reroutes to bypass it. (The situation is substantially worse here than on BNSF, where the delays are at least predictable.)


----------



## richm49

Train 48(10/5) did not depart CHI until 2:45 A.M.. So it is starting out 5 hours,15 minutes late right out of the gate. Last reported departing Bryan,OH at 10:14 A.M. now 8 hours,34 minutes late with many more delays probably still ahead for this train. It is now at the point where you can not plan on traveling eastbound from CHI to either WAS or NYP with any degree of certainty. Have plans to return on 48/LSL early November after connecting from 4/SWC. I will now modify my return route from Flagstaff,AZ via 4/SWC and 48/LSL to Tucson,AZ via 2/SL and 20/Crescent to get back to NYP. Can't bear the thought of sitting on a siding for hours or being bused. if I wanted a bus I would book a trip on Greyhound, not Amtrak!!! Will set me back an extra $170 bucks for the re-route but I think the peace of mind it will give me will be worth it!!!!!


----------



## neroden

FWIW, while I was reading the US code, I ran across this gem:

Amtrak may make an agreement with a

rail carrier or regional transportation authority to use facilities

of, and have services provided by, the carrier or authority under

terms on which the parties agree. The terms shall include a penalty

for untimely performance.

Congress actually *requires* that Amtrak contracts with host railroads contain penalty clauses for untimely performance, whether Amtrak wants it or not.

The legal provisions related to punishing host railroads for failing to handle passenger traffic have been proliferating over the decades as the host railroads continued to behave in a derelict fashion. I'm not sure why the Class Is insist on unnecessarily ticking off Congress (resulting in added legislation) rather than just running their railroads competently. I mean, it's not the management choice *I'd* make.


----------



## John Bobinyec

The family was scheduled to take 29 to 3 next month. Plans are being redrawn as we speak. The last I heard was that they'll drive to Chicago in order to catch 3 - which THEY CANNOT MISS.

jb


----------



## afigg

AmtrakBlue said:


> Yes, I'd say it's most likely 49 & 29 will bus from TOL to points beyond & 48 & 30 will bus from CHI to TOL for the foreseeable future.
> 
> And I certainly won't mind if I'm proven wrong.
> 
> Blame NS, not Amtrak.


Yes, it appears that both #29 and #49 have stopped at Toledo and are busing everyone to CHI and stations inbetween. #48(10/5) is currently over 8 hours late and has not yet reached TOL. They should have stopped #49 at TOL yesterday, not just #29 CL.

The question is how long can Amtrak keep up turning the CL and LSL around at Toledo? For one or 2 days to "reset" the trains and get caught up is one thing. But the trains are serviced and cleaned in Chicago, so a Toledo turnaround means limited cleaning and no maintenance or spare cars if there is a problem. And taking a bus from Toledo to Chicago with a time killing pit stop at a highway rest stop is no fun.

A re-route through Michigan would add, what?, 3 hours or more to the trip each way, not counting delays between Porter and Chicago, If the 110 mph track upgrades in MI and the Indiana Gateway projects were completed, a re-route through MI as a interim backup plan might be more feasible. But those are not going to be done until 2016 or 2017 it appears.

So, the question remains, when will the NS route get back to some degree of close to normal? The September 12 NS service alert warned about delays *east* of Toledo through October 22.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

No pit stop for us today. They provided vending machine pastries & bottles of water as we left TOL. There's a bathroom on board (and was clean when I used it around the 2 hour mark).

Most people were asleep, so no complaints from them


----------



## montana mike

What time do you think you will arrive in CHI???


----------



## RampWidget

pennyk said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm aboard (or was aboard) 29(4) WAS-CHI.
> 
> We were awakened by the SCA around 05:15A and informed that the train was going to terminate at TOL and all pax Bustituted to destination.
> 
> Explanation given was "a service disruption" but other than vague references to the NS, there was nothing more specific.
> 
> I sure am ready to get off this bus!
> 
> I will say that the on-board & operating crews handled the situation well, under the circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> I was on 29 also. I was in the 2900 car and second bus to leave Toledo. Bus driver Russ, a big guy.I agree with you.
Click to expand...

Darn it, there_ is_ a price to be paid for my not being on AU in several months! Penny, I'm disappointed to have missed the opportunity to meet you. 

I was in the 2901 car. Maybe some other time.


----------



## CHamilton

Amtrak trains often trickle into Toledo after rash of delays

Late arrivals lead to irate customers




> Late trains are nothing new for Amtrak, particularly for the overnight, long-distance trains such as those that serve Toledo — the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited. Trains running more than three hours late have become the norm recently, and they have often lost that much or more just on the Chicago-Toledo portion of trips. The Capitol Limited was 12 hours behind schedule on Sunday.
> While there have been exceptions, by far the biggest obstacle to Amtrak’s time-keeping across northern Indiana and northern Ohio has been tracks blocked by freight trains belonging to Norfolk Southern, which owns and operates the line Amtrak uses between Chicago and Cleveland.


----------



## n714da

Well, now sitting up front on a Delta MadDog about to pushback from DCA. I was really looking forward to new trackage, dinner, and a restful night in a CL bedroom tonight. I understand it's the freight railroads' fault, but in any event, it's tough to justify using long distance intercity rail for business travel. You know, I would seem like the type of customer Amtrak would want to woo, and keep. Tons of business travel with a good deal of discretion as to when, where, how, and how much - for me and a staff of 10 other road warriors. Plus, we are all politically active and willing to help lobby Congress and state officials. Heck, we frequently ride the Acela from WAS to BOS and back instead of flying. And we are always looking for rail options that will work for business - out in the morning, back in the evening.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Based on a quick read, it is a good article and answers a lot of questions. I do not like the idea of an automated Dispatching system, as one glitch or screw-up could cause a major disaster.


----------



## Ryan

I'm just going to leave this here (it just showed up in my inbox).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> What time do you think you will arrive in CHI???


I arrived at about 11:30...I mean 10:30 (crappy iPhone doesn't know what time zone it's in).Checked in, changed my shoes, lightened my backpack a bit, checked my bags with the red cap, went to Sears Tower gift shop & now(12:00) at Lou Mitchell's for brunch.


----------



## RampWidget

RyanS said:


> I'm just going to leave this here (it just showed up in my inbox).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AdvBk_Oct2014_AMT_RspEM_Chi_DTb_Img_600x400.jpg


Ryan, nothing like timing! I'm booked on the LSL BOS-CHI for Dec. 12. That reservation appears to be a prime candidate for a self-imposed reroute. :wacko:


----------



## RampWidget

n714da said:


> Well, now sitting up front on a Delta MadDog about to pushback from DCA. I was really looking forward to new trackage, dinner, and a restful night in a CL bedroom tonight. I understand it's the freight railroads' fault, but in any event, it's tough to justify using long distance intercity rail for business travel. You know, I would seem like the type of customer Amtrak would want to woo, and keep. Tons of business travel with a good deal of discretion as to when, where, how, and how much - for me and a staff of 10 other road warriors. Plus, we are all politically active and willing to help lobby Congress and state officials. Heck, we frequently ride the Acela from WAS to BOS and back instead of flying. And we are always looking for rail options that will work for business - out in the morning, back in the evening.


Well-put. Business was the purpose for my trip on 29(4) - even on the weekend I had a meeting scheduled in Chgo. But doing so required that I pad my flight schedule several hours on both ends. Fortunately, I like airplanes and trains. Most people don't like airplanes, and won't voluntarily sacrifice several hours of their personal time to utilize a LD train for business travel.

Edit: clarity


----------



## Barciur

If this becomes the new norm I think I'll cancel my trip to Milwaukee via CL. One of the primary reasons of going there was a sleeper trip from Pittsburgh to Chicago and back. If htis is turned into a half sleeper, half bus trip, I might as well just screw it and fly in. If it was at least able to get to South Bend, it'd be one thing, but another 4 hours on the bus is just a shame. 

I just hope this is just for a couple of days to cut the vicious circle of late arrivals and departures.


----------



## jis

Everydaymatters said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is really no excuse for busing all the way to Chicago when Amtrak could reroute via Michigan. Which Amtrak still can do.
> 
> Boardman needs to show some sense.
> 
> As for NS, if they're not paying damages to Amtrak and all the freight shippers who've been delayed... well, then they have too much power over contract writing and need to be nationalized or re-regulated.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a discussion with my granddaughter about this. She works for NS and claims that because the freight is time sensitive, they have priority. She stated a case where a production line could not operate without parts that are on NS freight. Seems freight lines should require customers with time sensitive shipments that they must have a wider lead time. Also seems passengers are time sensitive in many cases.
Click to expand...

I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.


----------



## John Bobinyec

jis said:


> I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.


Evidently, it's not illegal until the Supreme Court says it is, and it hasn't decided that issue yet.

jb


----------



## MikeM

jis said:


> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is really no excuse for busing all the way to Chicago when Amtrak could reroute via Michigan. Which Amtrak still can do.
> 
> Boardman needs to show some sense.
> 
> As for NS, if they're not paying damages to Amtrak and all the freight shippers who've been delayed... well, then they have too much power over contract writing and need to be nationalized or re-regulated.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a discussion with my granddaughter about this. She works for NS and claims that because the freight is time sensitive, they have priority. She stated a case where a production line could not operate without parts that are on NS freight. Seems freight lines should require customers with time sensitive shipments that they must have a wider lead time. Also seems passengers are time sensitive in many cases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.
Click to expand...

Oh please! I'm sure the STB will promptly drop everything and put someone's granddaughter in chains for speculating why her company isn't getting passengers across the railroad on a timely basis. I don't think it takes insider knowledge to see that things on the NS / CSX lines are AFU'd right now, and that delays are only getting worse. I'm sure if anything, shipper outcries about unshipped autos due to car shortages, delays in getting intermodal across the road, etc will keep the STB fully occupied for the time being.

The larger question will be if things keep up like this in the rail industry, at what point do we see a push start for re-regulation? It appears to be an industry wide issue now that too many lines were pulled in the 80's, and now they're sorely needed. If domestic industries are continually impacted, particularly bulk commodities like farm products, there could be a serious push for regulation which will definitely not end happy for the railroads. Hopefully they're genuinely committed to adding capacity quickly, Amtrak is just the canary in the coal mine.


----------



## jis

MikeM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is really no excuse for busing all the way to Chicago when Amtrak could reroute via Michigan. Which Amtrak still can do.
> 
> Boardman needs to show some sense.
> 
> As for NS, if they're not paying damages to Amtrak and all the freight shippers who've been delayed... well, then they have too much power over contract writing and need to be nationalized or re-regulated.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a discussion with my granddaughter about this. She works for NS and claims that because the freight is time sensitive, they have priority. She stated a case where a production line could not operate without parts that are on NS freight. Seems freight lines should require customers with time sensitive shipments that they must have a wider lead time. Also seems passengers are time sensitive in many cases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh please! I'm sure the STB will promptly drop everything and put someone's granddaughter in chains for speculating why her company isn't getting passengers across the railroad on a timely basis. I don't think it takes insider knowledge to see that things on the NS / CSX lines are AFU'd right now, and that delays are only getting worse. I'm sure if anything, shipper outcries about unshipped autos due to car shortages, delays in getting intermodal across the road, etc will keep the STB fully occupied for the time being.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about putting anyone in chains. Got to start going a bit light on the wild imagination drug intake.  
So your recommendation is just because you think STB will do nothing, people should stop filing complaints with STB? interesting!


----------



## Eric S

John Bobinyec said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.
> 
> 
> 
> Evidently, it's not illegal until the Supreme Court says it is, and it hasn't decided that issue yet.
> 
> jb
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the law requiring that Amtrak be given priority over freight is still in place and is not in question. What is in question (or has been struck down) pertains to the performance standards developed to measure whether Amtrak has priority.


----------



## jis

Eric S said:


> My understanding is that the law requiring that Amtrak be given priority over freight is still in place and is not in question. What is in question (or has been struck down) pertains to the performance standards developed to measure whether Amtrak has priority.


As far as I understand it.... the specific law that has been struck down was about the process for developing performance standards (and hence any performance standards developed using said process). The priority thing enters peripherally in the discussion since certain performance standard metrics cannot be met without giving priority. But the fact that Amtrak should have priority according to the pre-existing law has not been in question at all in this particular case that is at the SCOTUS.


----------



## Barciur

29 and 49 on track-a-train are showing as going to Chicago. Is it just because it's a standard template or is it possible that they will not be truncated in Toledo?


----------



## Slasharoo

It seems that the situation over the past year-plus on the Empire Builder route has just emboldened other freight companies to manage their companies in the same way. It appears they have nothing to lose and much to gain. If nothing happened to BNSF, how can NS be singled out?


----------



## montana mike

Good point, my local BNSF contacts just laughed when I first raised the issue of the feds coming down on BNSF's inability to effectively manage the Hi-Line. Given the absolutely dismal performance of BNSF this past summer, and the fact that their backlogs are now increasing again, with no STB feedback at all-other than the STB will continue to monitor BNSF's performance (what a joke), I can fully appreciate why the "suits" at NS have likely said-what the heck, let's go for the gusto and do our own thing as well.


----------



## neroden

John Bobinyec said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am actually completely floored with amazement that she actually said that, and then you proceeded to report that on a public forum! As Neorden pointed out, that is admission of a patently illegal act! Oh well..... wonders never cease I suppose! I guess minimally reporting that to the STB may be in order. Though, I suspect that your grand daughter was probably not speaking based on first hand knowledge, but on the general atmosphere within the company, which in the past has been sufficient to construct a case against a company.
> 
> 
> 
> Evidently, it's not illegal until the Supreme Court says it is, and it hasn't decided that issue yet.
Click to expand...

That's not how it works. It's illegal to prioritize freight trains ahead of passenger trains. The Class I executives *know* it's illegal. That's why, whenever they're asked, they claim that they are giving passenger trains top priority, and that the problem is simply that they're just generally incompetent at running their railroads. (Not a great defense... but it's legal to be incompetent.)

In the case of BNSF and NS recently, I can actually believe the execs. The passenger trains are delayed for hours, but the freight trains are being delayed for days and *weeks*.


----------



## neroden

MikeM said:


> The larger question will be if things keep up like this in the rail industry, at what point do we see a push start for re-regulation?


This is the larger question, yes. And that movement has already started, as you can see if you check the news regarding it from last year. However, the re-regulation movement should gain steam with the current breakdowns of the BNSF and NS systems. It's really, really bad, politically speaking, for Class I management to screw up right now, like they are doing.

Full disclosure: I'm invested in NS, CN, and Berkshire Hathaway, and I wish they would realize that they need to move into expansion mode; I think it's very dangerous long-term for them to generate snarls like this.



> It appears to be an industry wide issue now that too many lines were pulled in the 80's, and now they're sorely needed. If domestic industries are continually impacted, particularly bulk commodities like farm products, there could be a serious push for regulation which will definitely not end happy for the railroads. Hopefully they're genuinely committed to adding capacity quickly, Amtrak is just the canary in the coal mine.


I also hope they're genuinely committed to adding capacity quickly, but I see no evidence of it from NS (or most of the others). BNSF is adding *some* capacity, but it seems that it's less than was needed *last year*, which seems kind of half-assed.


----------



## Barciur

Back to earth. A report "abord" 30(6) from TO:



> Bused. We are almost to waterloo. Bus load of unhappy people. They rushed us out of union station like it was on fire then the station attendtants stood around and discussed how to best load the buses. Loaded people thrn moved some then moved them again. After the five of us were on a bus they came back 3 times to count who was going to waterloo. We them sat for an hour outside the station waiting for a few connections off #6
> 
> 15min till freedom. Still better than 8+ hour delay.


----------



## montana mike

So much for a train ride!!! If this wasn't real life it would be a hollywood comedy.

:-(


----------



## afigg

For those who have not checked Track-a-Train or Status maps today for ongoing saga of the CL and LSL, #29 and #49(10/6) were terminated at Toledo, so it is buses to Chicago and the stops in-between again. #29(10/6) arrived 2 hours and 49 minutes late at TOL so its passengers will be rather late to CHI. #29 departed PGH 26 minutes late, then CLE 2 hours and 11 minutes late, so it got delayed between PGH and CLE.

Both #30 and #48 departed Toledo late, looks like 2:36 late for #30, over 2 hours late for #48. CL #30(10/6) is presently 3:14 late at Connellsville and #48(10/6) was 2:48 late at Erie. So the bustitution did not get the eastbound trains back on schedule (east of TOL), but they are at least not horribly late. Perhaps they will do better with the buses tonight with some practice.


----------



## jis

It also depends when the buses actually make it out of Chicago after sweeping up all late arriving trains from the west etc.


----------



## montana mike

Excellent point, since trains like the EB are now running at least 6 hours late arriving (which puts those pax into CHI after 10 PM), and it appears Amtrak is willing to wait on those arrivals rather than put them up overnight.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> It also depends when the buses actually make it out of Chicago after sweeping up all late arriving trains from the west etc.


True. Looking at yesterday's western LD trains on status maps, there is missing data for #8(10/4) which has not been filled in since the website outage on Sunday, so don't know how late #8 arrived at CHI. Of the rest, CZ #6(10/4) was the latest, arriving CHI at 6:40 PM, 3 hours and 50 minutes late, on Monday. So the CL #30 buses were likely held for #6.

The challenge over the CHI to TOL route with bus substitutions is that the CL and LSL scheduled trip times of 4 hours and 4:20 respectively are competitive with the Google map predicted driving time of 4 hours. So adding time to load everyone on the buses, then doublecheck to make sure people got on the correct buses, move those who got on the wrong bus, drive to Toledo, maybe with a pit stop, then unload the buses and board the train? Ok, now that I look at it, with bustitutions, the CL and LSL are not going to depart Toledo eastbound on time.

So the question remains, how long will Amtrak turn the CL and LSL around at Toledo?


----------



## jis

They started doing these turns in Toledo to a significant extent because they simply don't have enough T&E staff on the Toledo extra board to run those trains all the way to Chicago and back with the level of delays they have been experiencing. A close second of course is cost of missed connections in Chicago. But short of hiring or transferring more staff into the Toledo extra board it is not possible to run those service on a new schedule which is 4 to 6 hours longer, day in and day out.


----------



## montana mike

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also depends when the buses actually make it out of Chicago after sweeping up all late arriving trains from the west etc.
> 
> 
> 
> True. Looking at yesterday's western LD trains on status maps, there is missing data for #8(10/4) which has not been filled in since the website outage on Sunday, so don't know how late #8 arrived at CHI. Of the rest, CZ #6(10/4) was the latest, arriving CHI at 6:40 PM, 3 hours and 50 minutes late, on Monday. So the CL #30 buses were likely held for #6.
> 
> The challenge over the CHI to TOL route with bus substitutions is that the CL and LSL scheduled trip times of 4 hours and 4:20 respectively are competitive with the Google map predicted driving time of 4 hours. So adding time to load everyone on the buses, then doublecheck to make sure people got on the correct buses, move those who got on the wrong bus, drive to Toledo, maybe with a pit stop, then unload the buses and board the train? Ok, now that I look at it, with bustitutions, the CL and LSL are not going to depart Toledo eastbound on time.
> 
> So the question remains, how long will Amtrak turn the CL and LSL around at Toledo?
Click to expand...

I believe #8 (10/4) arrived in CHI around 1 AM? No matter what the exact time, they have all been running very late since BNSF started moving the Fall harvest a couple weeks ago (and today's is no different around 6 hours behind). While I would think truncating the CL/LSL trains in Toledo should be a very short term "solution", I just don't see ANY thing happening in the next couple months which would change the operating parameters at NS to allow them to run along those tracks and have any semblance of reasonable timekeeping.


----------



## jis

Depending on how fluid or not Porter to Engelwood is, this may be a moment when Amtrak seriously ought to look at temporarily rerouting those trains, perhaps coupled together, via Michigan, putting in place necessary modification to schedules on a temporary basis.


----------



## George

Can Amtrak reroute the LSD via Niagara Falls and Widsor?


----------



## jis

Anything can happen with enough LSD I suppose. But as for the LSL not likely. Some of the tracks that were originally used apparently are not in good shape, and TSA will throw a huge hissy-fit too.


----------



## Barciur

Any news on what's happening to pax that connect to Pennsy in PGH? Are they taken for a ride to WAS and connect there back to PHL/NYP if that's their destination? Or is there buses to Harrisburg?


----------



## justinslot

Customer Relations did refund my sleeper costs from Chicago to Toledo, and gave me a $200 credit to boot, so all's well that ends well.


----------



## Barciur

So how does that work? Did they discount the Chicago-Toledo and treated your ticket like Toledo-final destination?


----------



## jis

No. They give you a voucher for the difference, or sometimes even refund in the form that it was originally paid for. What accounting they do internally I don;t know. But AFAIK there was nothing that changed in my PNR.


----------



## Barciur

I'm just curious what justinslot meant by "refund my sleeper cost Chicago-Toledo" on top of the $200 voucher.

I'm also curious how my trip turns out - Lancaster-Milwaukee in a sleeper from Pittsburgh roundtrip on Oct 31 with return on Nov 2. Will definitely be doing a very detailed travelogue with pictures and will take a journal along to note exact times of happenings, since it sounds like it will be an eventful trip.


----------



## R30A

Considering the number of delays due to crew shortages, perhaps they should delay the Capitol Ltd out of CHI to leave with the Lake Shore and intentionally combine the trains from Chicago to Cleveland.


----------



## City of Miami

There were repeated announcements in was Union Station this afternoon that train 29 will terminate in tol and bustitution beyomd that.


----------



## Barciur

So this will be the third day - I guess this is the new norm then?


----------



## afigg

The Chairman of the STB asked the freight railroads in August to provide an assessment of its ability to meet the expected peak fall traffic demand and its plans to respond to that demand. In mid-September, each of the freight railroads responded with a letter to the Chairman which have been posted to the STB Peak Season Service Plans page*. The response letters are after the block of links of the original letters from Chairman Elliott.

Link to the NS letter (7 page PDF). The NS response is a scanned document so I can't readily cut and paste text from it. Letter has list of capital expenditures including $500 million committed to investments in routes and terminals in the Chicago to Cleveland corridor; how many new hires; that the project to expand the classification yard at Bellevue, OH is expected to be completed in December and start operational service in the 1st qtr of 2015.

The not so good news is that NS does not expect network velocity and service levels to approach normal levels until the 1st quarter of 2015.

* Found out about the STB letters from a post on trainorders, so give credit where it is due.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Since 29 and 49 have been turning at Toledo, and buses carrying the passengers to Chicago, are they making connections to the SWC? Anybody know?

Thanks,

jb


----------



## jis

Yes, some of our friends en route to the AU Gathering in the Bay Area in California have made such connections over the last day or two. One even made a connection to the TE.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Yes. I made my connection to the SWC on Monday from 49. We arrived at CUS about 10:30 CT. Our bus did NOT make a stop (they handed out pastries & water as we left TOL).

Even before the buses they held 3 for as long as they could, it seems.

People made their connections to TE, CZ & EB.


----------



## Bob Dylan

John Bobinyec said:


> Since 29 and 49 have been turning at Toledo, and buses carrying the passengers to Chicago, are they making connections to the SWC? Anybody know?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> jb


Yes, several of the AUers on #29 and #49 on the way to the Gathering were bused in the last couple of days between TOL and CHI and made the connections to #421/#3/#5!


----------



## Henry Kisor

Got four relatives coming in from DC to Chicago this Saturday on 29. They called Amtrak to see what was going on and were told that the problem was due not to trackwork but to "flooding" and that Amtrak expects things to be back to normal by the weekend. Flooding, huh? Huh?


----------



## Guest

Excessive freight train flooding, they meant, surely.


----------



## acelafan

richm49 said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29& 49 are still waiting to enter Chicago as of 5:30pm CST. Yes, the CL has passed the LSL in a great battle to see which train can get to CHI first. Neither of course made their western connections today so everyone in that category was a loser again.
> 
> 
> 
> 29/CL and 49/LSL westbound pax really need to consider using 51/Cardinal to make LD West Coast or other vital connections in CHI.I know the Card's limited 3/day/week schedule can be tough to work around but you just can't beat it's on time performance.The Card services both NYP and WAS so it can be used by both CL and LSL pax. For the last 6 weeks, that's 18 trips, it has been either EARLY or ON TIME arriving CHI the last 13 out of 18 times!!! That is 72.2% on time record compared to virtually 0% for 29/CL and 49/LSL. Plus, the 5 times it was late were all under an hour except for 1 trip that arrived 1 hour,21 minutes late. When was the last time the CL or LSL got in even as early as 1 hour,21 minutes late?Yes I know it is a circuitous long trip and leaves early in the morning but you will make your CHI connections most assuredly.I have already dumped my 49/LSL tix for the 51/Card myself and will just get up early that morning and relax onboard knowing that my connection to 3/SWC will be made.
Click to expand...

I agree with you - I am thinking about a trip in November but I'll take the 51 Cardinal since it's been running more reliably than the Lake Shore or Capital. Of course _anything_ (and everything) can go wrong on the RR but I'll hedge my bets toward the good ol' Card on the Buckingham Branch right now.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Depending on how fluid or not Porter to Engelwood is, this may be a moment when Amtrak seriously ought to look at temporarily rerouting those trains, perhaps coupled together, via Michigan, putting in place necessary modification to schedules on a temporary basis.


Checking the Michigan service trains for Oct. 7 on Amtrak Status maps, some had long delays between Chicago and the first IN or MI stop. Had to be some very unhappy passengers on the MI trains. #350(10/7) departed CHI on time, then departed Hammond, IN 1 hour and 35 minutes late. #354(10/7) got the worse hit after departing CHI on-time, then MCI 3 hours and 2 minutes late. 

So a re-route through Michigan for the CL and LSL may get jammed running the detours from Porter from Chicago.


----------



## Henry Kisor

At 9:40 CDT the Amtrak delay map was showing No. 29 three hours and 1 minute late into South Bend and No. 30 two hours and 15 minutes late into Connellsville. That means maybe the bustitution has stopped. Let's hope so . . . otherwise one of my incoming party to D.C. will have to cancel because she gets horribly bus sick.


----------



## richm49

acelafan said:


> richm49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29& 49 are still waiting to enter Chicago as of 5:30pm CST. Yes, the CL has passed the LSL in a great battle to see which train can get to CHI first. Neither of course made their western connections today so everyone in that category was a loser again.
> 
> 
> 
> 29/CL and 49/LSL westbound pax really need to consider using 51/Cardinal to make LD West Coast or other vital connections in CHI.I know the Card's limited 3/day/week schedule can be tough to work around but you just can't beat it's on time performance.The Card services both NYP and WAS so it can be used by both CL and LSL pax. For the last 6 weeks, that's 18 trips, it has been either EARLY or ON TIME arriving CHI the last 13 out of 18 times!!! That is 72.2% on time record compared to virtually 0% for 29/CL and 49/LSL. Plus, the 5 times it was late were all under an hour except for 1 trip that arrived 1 hour,21 minutes late. When was the last time the CL or LSL got in even as early as 1 hour,21 minutes late?Yes I know it is a circuitous long trip and leaves early in the morning but you will make your CHI connections most assuredly.I have already dumped my 49/LSL tix for the 51/Card myself and will just get up early that morning and relax onboard knowing that my connection to 3/SWC will be made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with you - I am thinking about a trip in November but I'll take the 51 Cardinal since it's been running more reliably than the Lake Shore or Capital. Of course _anything_ (and everything) can go wrong on the RR but I'll hedge my bets toward the good ol' Card on the Buckingham Branch right now.
Click to expand...

Since 8/24( about the last 45 days or so) 51/Cardinal has arrived CHI either EARLY or ON TIME 14 of the last 19 trips! 4 of the 5 times that it was late were all less than an hour( 27,52,41 and 40 minutes) with only one exception( 8/29 arrived 1 hour,21 minutes late). You can count on getting to CHI for any and all connections using 51/Cardinal. Even with it's slow, circuitous route, early morning departure from NYP( 6:45 A.M except Sunday 6:55) and no real Dining car( uses Dining/Cafe car only) which limits menu options it is still better than the other options. I don't want to pay for sleeper accommodations to CHI and ride a bus from TOL-CHI!!!!


----------



## Henry Kisor

29 was 2 hours late into Chicago today, 30 expected to be about 2 1/2 late. That's MUCH better. Hope it holds.


----------



## Barciur

According to status maps and people on TO, 29 did not arrive into Chicago, but rather terminated in Toledo and still got bussed.


----------



## montana mike

This is supposed to stay that way thru 10-12 correct?


----------



## John Bobinyec

montana mike said:


> This is supposed to stay that way thru 10-12 correct?


The Amtrak notice about the delays is through January 12.

jb


----------



## Barciur

Yes but nothing official about buses.


----------



## justinslot

Barciur said:


> I'm just curious what justinslot meant by "refund my sleeper cost Chicago-Toledo" on top of the $200 voucher.
> 
> I'm also curious how my trip turns out - Lancaster-Milwaukee in a sleeper from Pittsburgh roundtrip on Oct 31 with return on Nov 2. Will definitely be doing a very detailed travelogue with pictures and will take a journal along to note exact times of happenings, since it sounds like it will be an eventful trip.


Well I assume the $80something they put back on my card was how much it would have cost to sit in a bedroom between Chicago and Toledo.


----------



## Orangesaint

Taken from Amtrak.com: Costs on a Wednesday in October for Chicago to Toledo:

30: Coach: $40 Superliner Roomette: $207. You're rightfully owed $167.

48: Coach: $40 Viewliner Roomette: $274. You're rightfully owed $234.

Wednesday Oct 29th fares used as a comparison.

So a $200 voucher plus $80 refund is "fair". But it's not as if its some great wonderful gesture.


----------



## Barciur

Well, when I bought my roomette from PGH to CHI, it cost $113 for a roomette - so it must be higher buckets.


----------



## Henry Kisor

Barciur, do you mean that Amtrak's status reports are of the BUS arriving into Chicago today, not the train 29 itself?


----------



## Barciur

Yeah I'm not sure where you see that but this connecting to status maps has 29 not arriving anywhere past Toledo - http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/getmap.pl?mapname=Midwest

and someone on TO said:



> 29 & 49 BUS departed Elkhart west @ 1:17pm EST


So more confusion!

The amtrak train app for smartphones says it is estimated to arrive at 11:08 but does not say arrived or anything. Weird.


----------



## afigg

Henry Kisor said:


> Barciur, do you mean that Amtrak's status reports are of the BUS arriving into Chicago today, not the train 29 itself?


I think what you are seeing on Amtrak check train status is the predicted arrival time, not the actual #29 which was stopped at Toledo. It should be showing a service disruption (as is the case for the October 7 status check), but the SD may not have been entered. Amtrak status maps which uses the actual reports shows both trains ending at TOL.

However there is a departure time for #29(10/7) from Toledo in the status map data. It is possible that after placing the passengers on the buses, the CL consist was sent on to CHI for maintenance, but with the expectation that it could take a long time to get to CHI. With advance notice, Amtrak could have assembled a replacement consist and sent it east to Toledo during the day. Send the train and see how long it takes to get between CHI and TOL to get am updated read on the NS situation. Pure speculation on my part, though.

Gene Poon on trainorders posted that Amtrak is planning to turn the CL and LSL around at TOL through at least Saturday. But the Michigan service trains today (10/8), SO FAR are having a much better day than yesterday getting between CHI and their first Michigan stop.


----------



## Barciur

I guess from a personal perspective it looks like this:

If I get bussed both ways, I expect a nice compensation. So it'll be a good trip as it'll be a lot cheaper, but also less quality. I don't want to do 5 hours on a bus, but I will if that means geting to Chicago say at 1pm, rather than 7pm.

If I don't and I get delayed, at least I'll have the roomette to be in - so it won't be as bad as being delayed in coach. And on the way back if I have to be sent to WAS to be eventually put to Lancaster, then once again - at least it'll be in a roomette.

So I can't lose. Just exciting to follow all of this.


----------



## Orangesaint

What's up with 49 today? Not even bothering with having it leave NYP?


----------



## richm49

Barciur said:


> I guess from a personal perspective it looks like this:
> 
> If I get bussed both ways, I expect a nice compensation. So it'll be a good trip as it'll be a lot cheaper, but also less quality. I don't want to do 5 hours on a bus, but I will if that means geting to Chicago say at 1pm, rather than 7pm.
> 
> If I don't and I get delayed, at least I'll have the roomette to be in - so it won't be as bad as being delayed in coach. And on the way back if I have to be sent to WAS to be eventually put to Lancaster, then once again - at least it'll be in a roomette.
> 
> So I can't lose. Just exciting to follow all of this.


Getting a nice compensation from Amtrak may be fine financially but who really wants to leave CHI on a bus at 9:30 P.M ( the scheduled departure time for 48/LSL) and ride 5-6 hours in the middle of night to board a train in TOL in wee hours of the morning? I sure as hell do not want to do that. I will be avoiding this entire IN-OH freight rail delay mess and re-route my entire return trip from Arizona down to the Southern route via 2/SL and then 20/Crescent direct to NYP instead of my original route 4/SWC and 48/LSL. It will cost a few bucks extra and will require overnight in NOL on my dime but I will at least avoid this whole freight delay and bus mess by staying as far away from CHI as I can.


----------



## RRCOMM

According to someone on Train Orders, things are happening in Chicago:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3543711


----------



## Barciur

richm49 said:


> Barciur said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess from a personal perspective it looks like this:
> 
> If I get bussed both ways, I expect a nice compensation. So it'll be a good trip as it'll be a lot cheaper, but also less quality. I don't want to do 5 hours on a bus, but I will if that means geting to Chicago say at 1pm, rather than 7pm.
> 
> If I don't and I get delayed, at least I'll have the roomette to be in - so it won't be as bad as being delayed in coach. And on the way back if I have to be sent to WAS to be eventually put to Lancaster, then once again - at least it'll be in a roomette.
> 
> So I can't lose. Just exciting to follow all of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a nice compensation from Amtrak may be fine financially but who really wants to leave CHI on a bus at 9:30 P.M ( the scheduled departure time for 48/LSL) and ride 5-6 hours in the middle of night to board a train in TOL in wee hours of the morning? I sure as hell do not want to do that. I will be avoiding this entire IN-OH freight rail delay mess and re-route my entire return trip from Arizona down to the Southern route via 2/SL and then 20/Crescent direct to NYP instead of my original route 4/SWC and 48/LSL. It will cost a few bucks extra and will require overnight in NOL on my dime but I will at least avoid this whole freight delay and bus mess by staying as far away from CHI as I can.
Click to expand...

Of course it all depends on who you are and what the purpose of your trip is etc. If I'm travelling with my mom or someone I know to connect to a westbound train or if I have to be back on time somewhere, I am totally with you. If I'm 10 years older than I am now and don't care for those kinds of adventures, I am totally with you.

If I'm me in my current situation, though, where I have an extra day off at work to fall back on and I'm in this primarily for an adventure, I'll just chalk it down as an abnormal adventure, grit my teeth through the bus ride and make the most out of the the trip. And come back when things are better. I've gotten used to crappy connections and uncomfortable trips with my 24 hour door-to-door trips across the atlantic 

In short - I don't want to do it, but it won't be as bad as it will be for most people. Still, sounds like it **might** become irrelevant, because:



RRCOMM said:


> According to someone on Train Orders, things are happening in Chicago:
> 
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3543711


That sounds great. Here's hoping!


----------



## Guest

So it looks like there's no LSL from CHI on Saturday??? It doesn't appear as an option when I look to see what's available for sale. I'm leaving on the Cardinal on Saturday, and my train went from moderately full to completely sold out within a day. And the Cap Limited is the same way. Glad I booked my Roomette early!


----------



## WindyCityTexan

** DUPE POST FROM ABOVE. I didn't realize I wasn't signed in. **

So it looks like there's no LSL from CHI on Saturday??? It doesn't appear as an option when I look to see what's available for sale. I'm leaving on the Cardinal on Saturday, and my train went from moderately full to completely sold out within a day. And the Cap Limited is the same way. Glad I booked my Roomette early!


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## Barciur

For this saturday? It shows up for me...


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## afigg

Orangesaint said:


> What's up with 49 today? Not even bothering with having it leave NYP?


Both #29 and #49 (10/8) are shown on Amtrak Track-a-Train enroute to Toledo. They are listed as in Service Disruption which often results in the train data not showing up on Amtrak Status Maps, even the train is running part of the route.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> For this saturday? It shows up for me...


At the moment, ALB-CHI sales are blocked out for Thursday, but are available for Friday Oct. 11. In the other direction, CHI-ALB sales are blocked on Friday, but are available on Saturday. So it appears they plan to let westbound #29 and #49 go through to Chicago on Saturday morning, then turn around and come back on Saturday night.
If NS really has cleared up the route or at least made it better, perhaps Amtrak will change its plan and let the westbound trains through on Thursday. But after the terrible delays of last week and weekend, it would be understandable if Amtrak wants to be sure that the trains are not going to be delayed 6 hours going from TOL to CHI.


----------



## richm49

Barciur said:


> richm49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barciur said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess from a personal perspective it looks like this:
> 
> If I get bussed both ways, I expect a nice compensation. So it'll be a good trip as it'll be a lot cheaper, but also less quality. I don't want to do 5 hours on a bus, but I will if that means geting to Chicago say at 1pm, rather than 7pm.
> 
> If I don't and I get delayed, at least I'll have the roomette to be in - so it won't be as bad as being delayed in coach. And on the way back if I have to be sent to WAS to be eventually put to Lancaster, then once again - at least it'll be in a roomette.
> 
> So I can't lose. Just exciting to follow all of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a nice compensation from Amtrak may be fine financially but who really wants to leave CHI on a bus at 9:30 P.M ( the scheduled departure time for 48/LSL) and ride 5-6 hours in the middle of night to board a train in TOL in wee hours of the morning? I sure as hell do not want to do that. I will be avoiding this entire IN-OH freight rail delay mess and re-route my entire return trip from Arizona down to the Southern route via 2/SL and then 20/Crescent direct to NYP instead of my original route 4/SWC and 48/LSL. It will cost a few bucks extra and will require overnight in NOL on my dime but I will at least avoid this whole freight delay and bus mess by staying as far away from CHI as I can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course it all depends on who you are and what the purpose of your trip is etc. If I'm travelling with my mom or someone I know to connect to a westbound train or if I have to be back on time somewhere, I am totally with you. If I'm 10 years older than I am now and don't care for those kinds of adventures, I am totally with you.
> 
> If I'm me in my current situation, though, where I have an extra day off at work to fall back on and I'm in this primarily for an adventure, I'll just chalk it down as an abnormal adventure, grit my teeth through the bus ride and make the most out of the the trip. And come back when things are better. I've gotten used to crappy connections and uncomfortable trips with my 24 hour door-to-door trips across the atlantic
> 
> In short - I don't want to do it, but it won't be as bad as it will be for most people. Still, sounds like it **might** become irrelevant, because:
> 
> 
> 
> RRCOMM said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to someone on Train Orders, things are happening in Chicago:
> 
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3543711
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds great. Here's hoping!
Click to expand...

Call me skeptical but I will believe it when I start to see 29/30 and 48/49 running into and out of CHI anywhere even close to being on time! Until then, I am still staying far away from this mess.I just read some of the postings on train orders.com from pax who were actually on these trains cut short at TOL. To say the least it was a total clusterf**k by Amtrak personnel who could not get things right when it came to loading the right people onto the right buses. One pax had to get on and off three different buses,including moving baggage back and forth before finally heading to the proper destination. I have no desire to let that happen to me despite the supposed "good news".


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## Barciur

That's totally fair and I completely understand everyone who is doing it. It might sound masochistic. I'm just hauling a small backpack with me, a pen and a notebook and I will be noting everything down for how my trip goes in a few weeks. You'll be able to read a travelogue of the mess (if such still occurs, hopefully not, though) from a safe distance


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## richm49

Barciur said:


> That's totally fair and I completely understand everyone who is doing it. It might sound masochistic. I'm just hauling a small backpack with me, a pen and a notebook and I will be noting everything down for how my trip goes in a few weeks. You'll be able to read a travelogue of the mess (if such still occurs, hopefully not, though) from a safe distance


Good luck!!


----------



## neroden

RRCOMM said:


> According to someone on Train Orders, things are happening in Chicago:
> 
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3543711


Good news. If NS has been chewed out by shippers and other Class Is during 16 hours of meetings, and the AAR rep has warned NS that their handling of Amtrak is going to be a PR disaster when it comes to Congress and the courts, maybe the NS executive office will finally start giving this area the attention it needs. Since they obviously weren't doing so for the last year.


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## Just-Thinking-51

How does a railroad go from 4 to 12 hours delay to on-time overnight?

I smell something bad.

Ok I doubt the Amtrak will be on-time at first, but still how does this happen? Three hours before the arrival of Amtrak you clear a path, so the two trains see nothing but green?


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## Barciur

It looks like 29 and 30 lost about 1.5 hours between Cleveland and Alliance, OH - so problems not just west of Toledo..


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## John Bobinyec

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> How does a railroad go from 4 to 12 hours delay to on-time overnight?
> 
> I smell something bad.
> 
> Ok I doubt the Amtrak will be on-time at first, but still how does this happen? Three hours before the arrival of Amtrak you clear a path, so the two trains see nothing but green?


No major railroad would clear a path three hours before an Amtrak train. If they have that kind of excess capacity, they are usually trying to abandon that line and let Amtrak pick it up. Witness recent events on the SWC.

jb


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## Mark P

I've been following this topic on and off for the past few days, and it sounds like all the issues have been on the NS tracks between CHI and PGH. I am taking the Cap Limited around thanksgiving between WAS and PGH, on the CSX tracks. Has this section seen the same kind of crazy hours-long delays that is plaguing the western end? Or should I expect everything to run smoothly?

Edit: To clarify, I am originating out of WAS, traveling to PGH.


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## RampWidget

Mark P said:


> I've been following this topic on and off for the past few days, and it sounds like all the issues have been on the NS tracks between CHI and PGH. I am taking the Cap Limited around thanksgiving between WAS and PGH, on the CSX tracks. Has this section seen the same kind of crazy hours-long delays that is plaguing the western end? Or should I expect everything to run smoothly?


My trip this past weekend on 29(4) went well on the CSX section of the route, but that's not to say CSX is immune to delays. We pulled from WAS exactly on time and were a little less than one hour late at PGH, IIRC. We lost about 50" at Viaduct Jct. west of Cumberland waiting on two eastbounds coming off Sand Patch and then reversing around a westbound that was ahead of us on the same track. I'm guessing that the crews on the two eastbound trains were close to their Federal hours of service limits, but that's only my opinion.

According to Amtrak's Web site, the latest performance numbers for 29/30 (September) are:

Primary Cause of DelaysSeptember 2014



Train Interference: 63.9%

86.2% on Norfolk Southern
13.5% on CSX Corporation
0.3% on Amtrak


Track and Signals: 14.1%

63.8% on Norfolk Southern
34.2% on CSX Corporation
1.9% on Amtrak


Operational: 13.2%

64.6% on Amtrak
27.2% on Norfolk Southern
8.2% on CSX Corporation


----------



## RampWidget

John Bobinyec said:


> No major railroad would clear a path three hours before an Amtrak train. If they have that kind of excess capacity, they are usually trying to abandon that line and let Amtrak pick it up. Witness recent events on the SWC.
> 
> jb


Maybe not three hours, but I have visited dispatching offices and on more than one occasion witnessed routes cleared up to an hour in advance for Amtrak in single-track territory.

Edit: grammar


----------



## richm49

Mark P said:


> I've been following this topic on and off for the past few days, and it sounds like all the issues have been on the NS tracks between CHI and PGH. I am taking the Cap Limited around thanksgiving between WAS and PGH, on the CSX tracks. Has this section seen the same kind of crazy hours-long delays that is plaguing the western end? Or should I expect everything to run smoothly?
> 
> Edit: To clarify, I am originating out of WAS, traveling to PGH.


According to archived data from statusmaps.net you should be in good shape for your trip. For the month of September, 29/CL arriving in PGH averaged only 28 minutes delays. There were two days of meltdowns on 9/5 and 9/15 when it arrived 181 and 193 minutes late but even with those big delays factored in the average is still under half an hour. In fact, in 30 days of September 29/CL actually arrived on time 12 of the 30 days with 6 other delays of 15 minutes or less! That is a fairly good on time performance. Based on this data you should be in good shape for you trip. However, that being said you may want to track the on-time performance for 29/CL for yourself as the date for your trip gets closer.Simply go to status maps.net, click on "status file archives" and enter train # 29 and search the date/dates that you want the info for. Good luck and have a good trip.


----------



## acelafan

richm49 said:


> Mark P said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been following this topic on and off for the past few days, and it sounds like all the issues have been on the NS tracks between CHI and PGH. I am taking the Cap Limited around thanksgiving between WAS and PGH, on the CSX tracks. Has this section seen the same kind of crazy hours-long delays that is plaguing the western end? Or should I expect everything to run smoothly?
> 
> Edit: To clarify, I am originating out of WAS, traveling to PGH.
> 
> 
> 
> According to archived data from statusmaps.net you should be in good shape for your trip. For the month of September, 29/CL arriving in PGH averaged only 28 minutes delays. There were two days of meltdowns on 9/5 and 9/15 when it arrived 181 and 193 minutes late but even with those big delays factored in the average is still under half an hour. In fact, in 30 days of September 29/CL actually arrived on time 12 of the 30 days with 6 other delays of 15 minutes or less! That is a fairly good on time performance. Based on this data you should be in good shape for you trip. However, that being said you may want to track the on-time performance for 29/CL for yourself as the date for your trip gets closer.Simply go to status maps.net, click on "status file archives" and enter train # 29 and search the date/dates that you want the info for. Good luck and have a good trip.
Click to expand...


John's archive data is excellent. I am taking it and putting it into a searchable format at this link:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php ( you can also just Google "Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database" )

Just stick in the train number you want, station, and dates.

Here is a link showing #29 arriving/departing from PGH:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?train_num=29&station=pgh&date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=9%2F30%2F2014&sort=schAr&sort_dir=DESC&limit=&co=gt&limit_mins=


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## Barciur

Any news on today's 29? When did it get to TOL? Final arrival in CHI?


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## Barciur

Anybody knows what's been happening to passengers missing their Pittsburgh connection? Are they being taken to WAS if they are goijng to Philly, or being bussed?


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## neroden

I read elsewhere that Amtrak has secured the buses from Toledo to Chicago through Sunday. We shall see what happens on Monday.


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## richm49

According to statusmaps.net there is no activity reported for either 29 or 49 Westbound to CHI for either 10/8 or for 10/9 . Does not show anything, not even truncated service to TOL. What is going on with these trains? Has Amtrak just annulled them or are they just not showing up on the database? I would not hold my breath waiting for this mess to get cleared up any time soon. Glad that I got rid of my reservations for 49/LSL later this month and turned them in for sleeper on 51/Cardinal.


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## Barciur

They are not showing because AMTRAK put them on Service Disruption and that makes them not show up on Amtrak Status Maps.


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## richm49

Barciur said:


> They are not showing because AMTRAK put them on Service Disruption and that makes them not show up on Amtrak Status Maps.


I guess that is Amtrak's answer to dealing with this mess. Just make the trains disappear from an activity database. Maybe they think that people will just forget about them if they don't report movement activity.


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## acelafan

Service Disruptions reported on #29 since Sept 1st:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history_file.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=12%2F31%2F2014&train_num=29&sort=origin_date&sort_dir=DESC&sd=1&c=-1

Service Disruptions reported on #49 since Sept 1st:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history_file.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=12%2F31%2F2014&train_num=49&sort=origin_date&sort_dir=DESC&sd=1&c=-1

Service Disruptions reported system-wide since Sept 1st:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history_file.php?date_start=9%2F1%2F2014&date_end=12%2F31%2F2014&train_num=&sort=origin_date&sort_dir=DESC&sd=1&c=-1


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## Henry Kisor

No. 29 (10) left WAS on time today at 4:05. The Amtrak desk at WAS assured my party that the train would not be stopped at Toledo and the passengers bused onward, but would go straight through to CHI.

We'll see what happens now.

No. 30 (9) is more than 4 hours late now.


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## afigg

The westbound trains did show up on Track-a-Train, but with no data for stations stops. I saw CL #29 was still enroute to TOL mid-morning, so it was running very late. Probably got jammed up between PGH and TOL as #30 has been the past couple of days. 

With 3+ days of bustitutions, the bus transfer process should be a little better organized, so the delays for last night's eastbound trains may be about as best as can be done. The driving time from CHI to TOL is the same as the CL and LSL trip times, so the buses are not covering a overly slow segment of Amtrak service where the bus can make up time lost getting the large mass of passengers on and off the buses. Especially transferring grumpy passengers from the buses to the train at TOL at middle of the night hours which can't be fun. The status maps data is not showing the departure time from TOL, but starts with Sandusky:

CL #30 (10/8) departed SKY 1 hour and 29 minutes late, then PGH 3 hours and 49 minutes late.

LSL #48 (10/8) departed SKY 2 hours and 3 minutes late, then SYR 3 hours and 22 minutes late.

If the delays between TOL to CHI are back down to less than 2 hours, might as well as run the trains to CHI, because that is how roughly much time is being lost with the buses.


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## jis

2 or 3 hour delays are manageable. 6 hours is not. There not enough crew available on the Toledo extra board to run the service with regular 6 hour delays.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Barciur

Henry Kisor said:


> No. 29 (10) left WAS on time today at 4:05. The Amtrak desk at WAS assured my party that the train would not be stopped at Toledo and the passengers bused onward, but would go straight through to CHI.
> 
> We'll see what happens now.
> 
> No. 30 (9) is more than 4 hours late now.


That might be true given the earlier talk on Trainorders AND the fact that 29 is NOT showing a service disruption.


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## afigg

Henry Kisor said:


> No. 29 (10) left WAS on time today at 4:05. The Amtrak desk at WAS assured my party that the train would not be stopped at Toledo and the passengers bused onward, but would go straight through to CHI.
> 
> We'll see what happens now.


That is consistent with the ability to buy tickets on the reservation system. The bustituted trains were shown as Sold Out through yesterday for the westbound CL & LSL and tonight for the eastbound CL & LSL. As we know, the trains were not canceledl I figure Amtrak did not to subject any more passengers to the bustitution beyond those who had already brought tickets.
So with #29 and #49(10/10) enroute to Chicago, tune in early Saturday morning to see how late they get to CHI!


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## MikeM

I just checked online tonight to see what I could see on the Capitol Limited -- everything shows a service disruption. Also, when I first signed on, it was showing the reservation system was down, but it came up over a few minutes. Hopefully we don't have a crash like last weekend...still waiting with baited breath to find out if there's a bustitution tomorrow or not.


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## Barciur

Well current 29 is not showing as a service disruption so I'm with you - hoping for no bustitution! My trip on the 29 is in 3 weeks exactly!


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## Henry Kisor

Sadly, at 7:06 am CDT No. 29 (10) is overdue, 5 hours 26 minutes late before Cleveland. So much for Amtrak's promises.


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## Henry Kisor

At 8:37 a.m CDT No. 29 (10) still not into Cleveland . . . running 6:43 late and counting. My party aboard says it's due to freight congestion plus a medical emergency.


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## Barciur

Oh wow. Certainly not what I expected. 49 seems to be doing a little better..ish.

Back to square one and busses then?


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## antiguru

I'm on the 29, we're still building up delays. It just passed Cleveland international airport.

And now we're getting new conductors because their service time is over.


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## Barciur

Has anyone told you why you're delayed so much? And are you going all the way to Chicago or being put on buses somewhere?


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## afigg

Barciur said:


> Oh wow. Certainly not what I expected. 49 seems to be doing a little better..ish.
> 
> Back to square one and busses then?


CL #29(10/10) left ALC 9 minutes late and then took 8 hours and 24 minutes to get to CLE; departed CLE a whopping 7 hours and 21 minutes late. Buses between CHI and TOL were not going to help here. 
#49(10) departed TOL 4 hours and 38 minutes late. Has the NS meltdown shifted to east of TOL and CLE?


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## Barciur

No, but that's not what I was getting at - the need for more crew changes means there is more issues and I do not even want to try to imagine what time today's 30 will leave. Terminating at Toledo could possibly help get crews more rest time and more time to turn the train etc.


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## antiguru

I think the reason is quite simple: first we were blocked by freight trains before and after Cleveland. Then we needed a crew change which blocked all traffic between Cleveland and elyria because there is construction work going on leaving only a single track open. Now we seem to be blocked by another train, we just got out of elyria to stop again. It was just confirmed we will not reach any connecting trains in Chicago. But everyone seems happy


----------



## benale

Wonder how long this nightmare is going to last? We are connecting with 7 from 29 a few months away. We planned to park in Toledo which has free parking. If things don't improve we may have to drive to Chicago and avoid 29 and 49 altogether. Does anyone know of any Amtrak stations around Chicago that offer free long term parking? We can't afford to miss our connection. The Cardinal is an option,but the three day a week schedule could be a problem.


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## neroden

afigg said:


> Has the NS meltdown shifted to east of TOL and CLE?


Good question. NS has said for years that Englewood was the primary bottleneck on their network. Well, Englewood Flyover is open now. Having eliminated that bottleneck, the question is where the next bottleneck is.

NS is apparently using a new, stupid, incompetent computer dispatching system. I know more than a little about how those sort of badly designed systems get written. The programmers are told to try to achieve maximum throughput (which is WRONG design, but that's typically what they get told to do). Because the program can't possibly be informed of all sources of unexpected delays, this overloads the network. The overload will show up at the biggest bottleneck. The result is that mindlessly following the computer system, while it is very poor at actually doing the job, is very excellent at demonstrating to you where your biggest bottleneck is.... we should see very quickly, within a couple of weeks, what the weak point of the NS system is now.

It could easily be that the second-biggest bottleneck is between Cleveland and Ravenna. Why shouldn't it be? It's another area where too many of the former parallel routes were ripped out or downgraded.


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## Barciur

Looks like Amtrak got an extra consist in for Capitol Limited as 30 has departed while 29 is still en route..


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## afigg

Barciur said:


> Looks like Amtrak got an extra consist in for Capitol Limited as 30 has departed while 29 is still en route..


Yes, resulting in a rare sight of 3 CLs shown on Amtrak Status maps at the same time, 2 of them near CHI.


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## neroden

To continue on the topic of how difficult automated dispatching is as a problem, I'll share some wisdom from an expert in control theory who's related to me.

The biggest problem in designing a control system is getting the model right.

Elaboration: If your model is missing key pieces of information, you can write a computer program which will accurately do the right thing *for the model*, which could be catastrophically wrong *in the real world*. However, most people commissioning these systems do not check their model carefully enough. If you are employed to write such a system, you are well advised to take the model you are given and spend several weeks checking it to see where they've screwed up the modelling, before even trying to write the control program.

Likely places for screwup on the model for an automated dispatching system include: failure to account for the incidence of trespassing by cars bypassing gates and getting hit (and the complex knock-on effects this has), failure to account for grade crossing equipment failures, poor modeling of the other railroads with which you interchange (for instance, not realizing that you're big enough to congest *them*), poor modeling of shippers, failure to model hours-of-service requirements (and the knock-on effects of running out of hours), et cetera.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Might be off topic, still a good read.


----------



## MikeM

Well, tonight (10/11) Capitol Limited shows being late 30 minutes. Be interesting to see when it actually shows up. LSL seems to be about an hour late, but does not display service status on Track a train.

Today, saw the LSL coming through Holland OH at 11:01AM; normally it would be through here in the wee morning hours. Train had two private varnish, a dark red heavyweight, and a dome observation car. Wasn't close enough to get car information. One thing that would be a pain is trying to move a private car with all these bustitutions and delays in the system.


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## Barciur

Looking at 29 and 30 this morning it seems obvious that indeed the bottleneck has been moved to the east of Toledo, rather than the west. So bustitution will probably not be happening any longer as if you want to avoid the delays, you would have to run buses from, well, probably Pittsburgh for 29.


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## neroden

The reports I've been seeing are that the NS system is now bottlenecking between Cleveland and Alliance, particularly between Cleveland and Ravenna.

...so does this mean the LSL is running more-or-less on time again?  That would be a major help for Amtrak, even if the CL is still suffering.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> Looking at 29 and 30 this morning it seems obvious that indeed the bottleneck has been moved to the east of Toledo, rather than the west. So bustitution will probably not be happening any longer as if you want to avoid the delays, you would have to run buses from, well, probably Pittsburgh for 29.


Based on last night and this morning, the delays between TOL and CHI may be down to 1 to 2 hours. Not good, but not the extreme delays of late last week and last weekend that led to the busitutions. However, yes, the delays west of TOL can be split to between TOL to CLE (affecting both trains) and then for the CL, one more delay zone to get through, CLE - ALC.

Fortunately, Amtrak had a new CL consist ready to send eastward on Saturday night when #29 (10/10) arrived at CHI a staggering 11 hours and 1 minute late (for a 17 and half hour scheduled trip time). Gives the CL another day to hold off on the late arrival and later departure cycle at CHI. For #30(10/11), we are getting a snapshot of the current eastbound delays for a CL that departs CHI on-time (or 9 minutes late as in this case) as #30(10/11) arrived at PGH 5 hours and 44 minutes late. At least it is not 10 hours late. :wacko:


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

With back to the wall. Amtrak push out two complete train sets. One for the Empire Builder, now one for the Capital. Glad to see all that federal tiger rebuild funds in action.


----------



## afigg

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> With back to the wall. Amtrak push out two complete train sets. One for the Empire Builder, now one for the Capital. Glad to see all that federal tiger rebuild funds in action.


The extra #30 CL consist sent out on Saturday night may have been a 1 time deal with days to assemble a new consist at CHI so the inbound equipment could be sent off for maintenance. We may find out tonight (Sunday) if there is late departure of #30.

Anyway, the westbound trains made it to CHI, but still pretty late with the LSL ending up right behind the CL (again) and both losing less than an hour TOL to CHI.:

CL #29(10/11) departed WAS on-time, PGH 4 minutes late, ALC 25 minutes late, TOL 3 hours and 45 minutes late, and arrived CHI 4 hours and 28 minutes late at 1:13 PM CT.

LSL #49(10/11) departed NYP and ALB on-time, BUF 1 hour and 22 minutes late, TOL 3 hours and 16 minutes late, arrived CHI 3 hours and 37 minutes late at 1:22 PM CT.

So what is the next step in this sequence for the departures from CHI? Stay tuned to the hit season series: the Norfolk Southern meltdown!


----------



## PaulM

neroden said:


> Likely places for screwup on the model for an automated dispatching system include: failure to account for the incidence of trespassing by cars bypassing gates and getting hit (and the complex knock-on effects this has), failure to account for grade crossing equipment failures, poor modeling of the other railroads with which you interchange (for instance, not realizing that you're big enough to congest *them*), poor modeling of shippers, failure to model hours-of-service requirements (and the knock-on effects of running out of hours), et cetera.


I'm not following here. It seems to me that most of the factors you mention would affect capacity decisions, not real time dispatching. Wouldn't a dispatching system be determanistic, i.e., use the current status of the system, i.e., where each train is, current speed limits, train speed capability, hours of service remaining, etc., plus priorities for each train? If train X is 5 hours late, does it really matter if it was caused by a trespasser?.

When you say "automated" dispatching, do you mean the computer sets the lights and switches (e.g., for a siding), or it tells the human dispatcher what to do, or it shows the effects of what a dispatcher wants to do?

I can't picture a real time dispatching system that would take into account the probability of a grade crossing equipment failure or a locomotive failure down the line. Hopefully these events are extremely rare.


----------



## neroden

OK, so it's a little hard to explain if you don't understand how software works.



PaulM said:


> When you say "automated" dispatching, do you mean the computer sets the lights and switches (e.g., for a siding), or it tells the human dispatcher what to do, or it shows the effects of what a dispatcher wants to do?


Could be any of these, really. The point is that the dispatching system is trying to replace the *decision-making knowhow* of the human dispatcher, but it's doing so with *less information*, and specifically with less information which causes it to *bias optimistically*.

So, when it shows the effects of a proposed dispatching plan, it shows *overly optimistic effects*. If it tells the human dispatcher to follow said plan, it is an *overly optimistic plan* with *overly optimistic effects*. If it sets the switches itself automatically, it is *still* an overly optimistic plan with overly optimistic effects...

So the automated dispatching system claims that a given plan will successfully move various trains to various locations by various times; and it won't. Something will happen, a grade crossing will malfunction or something, and then the entire thing will snarl up and everything will be late.

A human dispatcher could have deliberately left extra empty sidings, held the main emptier than it needed to be, etc., and then there would be some slack which could be used in case of accidents.

An automated dispatching program *could* theoretically do this too, but *that's not what the programmers were instructed to do*. They were almost certainly instructed to write an "efficient" dispatching program which maximized the use of the capacity. This, as I said earlier, is the error.

The human dispatchers have in the back of their heads "I need to leave some slack in case something goes wrong". They'll start steering trains away from a yard when it's only 85% full, not 100% full. The automated dispatching system might hold trains off the main just-in-time to let Amtrak by; the human dispatcher would clear the way earlier, just in case something went wrong.

You CAN write programs which can incorporate this know-how, but I am dead certain that when the program was commissioned, that's not what the programmers were told to do, and so they made a fragile system.

I'm certain of this because

(a) it is a really, really common error to make when commissioning computer programs for controlling things;

(b) the execs of the railroads have been obsessed with efficient use of capacity rather than with having redundancy for trouble, which makes them more likely to make this error.

Computers are very good at doing things very fast. So, if the execs ordered the human dispatchers to leave no slack, it might take months for them to adjust their behavior and clog up the railroad completely. The computer, instructed to do the same thing, will clog up the railroad within days!


----------



## neroden

Discussion on another board of the complete and utter disaster which NS's "AutoRouter" from GE is:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,3546621

Added point: AutoRouter appears to have actually broken the law by running freights ahead of Amtrak.

Maybe we can get something organized through one of the lobbying groups, because this is something it would be fun to take on.

The code for AutoRouter can be subpoenaed by Amtrak in a hearing to determine whether NS is violating the priority dispatching law. If

(a) AutoRouter doesn't have Amtrak priority coded into its software

and (b) as reported, dispatchers are being penalized for overriding AutoRouter,

then Amtrak has a slam-dunk case and will win money damages and an injunction! Faced with this information, NS will either

(a) order that dispatchers override AutoRouter,

or (b) demand that GE supply a revised version of AutoRouter which prioritizes Amtrak.

Apparently the AutoRouter is designed to make the most "cost-effective" dispatching choices. But its model of "cost-effective" is wrong, because it doesn't account for angry customers (like UPS) revoking their business due to delays! Classic.


----------



## Trollopian

I frequently commute between Pittsburgh and Washington on the Capitol Limited, so imagine my wistfulness when I read this in the October 4 print edition of _The Economist:_

"Fifty years ago this week the first Shinkansen bullet train pulled out of Tokyo station bound for Osaka, a flash of blue and white through what was still a grimy, beat-up megalopolis. At once it became emblematic of Japan’s regeneration and a glimpse of the future...It has since whisked 5.6 billion passengers across the country without a single serious accident. Punctuality? The average delay is less than a minute."

(Full article at http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21621880-they-have-been-rolling-50-yearsand-without-fatal-accident-what-ride.)

Not surprisingly, given the recent meltdowns on the CL route west of Pittsburgh, I've switched to other modes for getting to DC (though the trip from DC to Pittsburgh is reasonably reliable).


----------



## afigg

So with the benefit of a extra assembled consist, on Saturday night CL #30(10/11) departed CHI only 9 minutes late at 6:49 PM CT. After a run through the NS gauntlet, it departed PGH 5 hours and 41 minutes late, got a little later, and then thanks to some serious padding for the last segment, arrived at WAS 5 hours and 44 minutes late. 

LSL #48(10/11) departed CHI 3 hours and 6 minutes late, had a better run losing about 2 additional hours, arrived at NYP 5 hours and 22 minutes late. 

With a late arrival of #29, CL #30(10/12) departed CHI Sunday night 1 hour and 22 minutes late. Getting off to a better start, LSL #48(10/12) departed CHI 12 minutes late. Anyone want to guess how late they will be getting to CLE or for the CL, PGH, and then their final destination NYP and WAS?


----------



## neroden

My wild guess: I think the LSL will lose about 2 hours from Chicago to Cleveland consistently, but that this might slowly get smaller as track work continues and crews are relocated. However, I think for some time to come the CL will lose far more from Cleveland to Alliance, which seems to be the new chokepoint. And I don't know of any plans which would alleviate it.


----------



## montana mike

Looking at the numbers this morning things don't appear to be getting ANY better. Both the LSL and CL are 4-5 hours behind in OH. What a mess.

:-(


----------



## Barciur

LSL hit a vehicle somewhere around Erie on a grade crossing, that's what caused it to be late.


----------



## Slasharoo

On 48 now. No car-train incident to my knowledge. Moving towards Erie, 3+ hours behind. Three hours at CLE and a little added since.


----------



## afigg

Slasharoo said:


> On 48 now. No car-train incident to my knowledge. Moving towards Erie, 3+ hours behind. Three hours at CLE and a little added since.


It was the westbound #49 (10/12) that must have hit the car. Departed Erie 43 minutes late, then arrived at CLE almost 4 hours late, Now 5 hours late at Sandusky with delays ahead of it. Which means that unless Amtrak has a spare LSL consist at CHI, that #48 will almost certainly be late departing CHI tonight.


----------



## Barciur

Yes sorry, I meant the 49, didn't specify.


----------



## montana mike

No end to the misery for this route! Should be an exciting adventure for me in a couple of weeks......

:-(


----------



## Slasharoo

We appear to be holding steady at 4:20 behind schedule on today's 48. They did serve Amstew after Utica around 5:00.


----------



## Henry Kisor

It's a little late to say so (I was away from a computer) but 29 (10) finally arrived in Chicago about 11 hours late. No bustitution, though.


----------



## afigg

afigg said:


> It was the westbound #49 (10/12) that must have hit the car. Departed Erie 43 minutes late, then arrived at CLE almost 4 hours late, Now 5 hours late at Sandusky with delays ahead of it. Which means that unless Amtrak has a spare LSL consist at CHI, that #48 will almost certainly be late departing CHI tonight.


News report on the grade crossing collision in Erie: Man hurt when truck struck by train in Erie. It was a pickup truck that was hit just after #49 departed the Erie station.


----------



## Chey

montana mike said:


> No end to the misery for this route! Should be an exciting adventure for me in a couple of weeks......
> 
> :-(


Yeah, I get to ride the 30 in about 6 weeks. I've been wondering if weather can make it even worse, guess I'm going to find out.


----------



## keelhauled

And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.


----------



## gunn13

Hi there,

I was hoping somebody with a little more insight might be able to help me with some information about these delays.

My wife and I are booked on travel on the Lake Shore Limited from NYP-CHI on Monday 3 Nov. we are connecting with the Southwest Chief later in the afternoon.

When we planned it out I anticipated that a 5/6 hour connection time would be ample but after seeing the notice about expected delays until January I am starting to worry that we will likely miss our connection.

If this happens, how would Amtrak help us out?

I'm a train conductor here in Scotland and I understand the nature of delays and how it can be difficult to predict anything - looking at the recent delay times for the LSL, it varies wildly - but does anybody have an eduated guess as to how bad the delay is likely to be?

Any help is much appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## jebr

Sometimes they've been bussing people from Toledo to Chicago in order to make connections. This is sporadic, though, and may or may not be done on your trip. They may also hold your connecting train if the train is about to arrive when the connecting train is about to leave.

If the connection is missed, however, Amtrak will provide a hotel (paid for by Amtrak) and will also provide cash for food and taxi (if needed.) They will then accommodate you on the next day's train if possible. This may mean being downgraded to coach if you have a sleeper, though. If they downgrade you, call into Customer Relations after the trip and ask for a refund of the cost between coach and sleeper (unless Amtrak offers this immediately when they rebook you.)

If you want to have a very good chance of having a sleeper, lay over for a night in Chicago (this would be at your expense) and take the next day's train. Chicago is a nice place to spend a day, anyways, and if you're a railfan there's a lot of rail you can ride as well.


----------



## afigg

Yikes, #49(10/12) had a bad trip. Got to CLE 4 hours late thanks to the grade crossing collision in Erie, and then got stuck in delay hell after that. Departed TOL 5 hours and 18 minutes late, SOB 6 hours and 55 minutes late, and then lost another 3.5 hours, arrived at CHI 10 hours and 25 minutes late at 8:10 PM CT. Just how late will #48 be departing CHI tonight?

The only good news is that #30(10/13) left on-time.


----------



## richm49

keelhauled said:


> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.


49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.


----------



## montana mike

Based on what Amtrak is advertising as an arrival time at SOB likely 3+ hours delay in departing. The death spiral starts all over again this week. There is no way they can keep this up. The delays will keep compounding until Amtrak will be required to annul an entire train to try to catch up-which, given the track record will happen soon.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

richm49 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.
Click to expand...

Glad you found a viable alternative. Sadly I have none, since I will be leaving from Rochester, NY. I can't afford to stay another day in CHI waiting for a later Empire Builder, so it looks like just scrapping the ROC to CHI leg of the trip and flying or driving from ROC to make it to CHI in time to catch #7. Arrrgh. One would think an almost 5 hour connection time would be "viable", but not in this environment-maddening.


----------



## richm49

Well so much for the reports from train orders.com last week that things may be getting better in this mess anytime soon. It was reported that there were 16 hours of meetings amongst major users of Chicago Terminal railroads. In that meeting, NS was singled out for having adverse effects on all traffic in that area.NS stated that they had made "significant progress" in decreasing train delays in the area and they they were committed to the operation of Amtrak trains along their entire Cleveland-Chicago route. That was reported on 10/8 last week. Despite those reports, it is just more of the same on this beleaguered route. Obviously there has not been any progress in improving operations as evidenced by 49/LSL(10/12) ridiculously late arrival in CHI.Maybe the case being heard by the U.S. Supreme Court will provide some relief.


----------



## Anderson

*sighs*
As noted elsewhere, I am _flying_ most of the way to the NARP conference due to this *ahem* train wreck. I am not happy about it, either. You can bet that I'll be dragging my rear end to _somebody's_ annual meeting next spring and making some terse remarks about how management let this disruption go on for as long as it did, fouling ops for all customers...*grumble*


----------



## Anderson

richm49 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.
Click to expand...

49/12 was late due to a collision. Not NS's fault. I just got in a jam that on the necessary travel day, the Cardinal wasn't running.


----------



## richm49

montana mike said:


> richm49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Glad you found a viable alternative. Sadly I have none, since I will be leaving from Rochester, NY. I can't afford to stay another day in CHI waiting for a later Empire Builder, so it looks like just scrapping the ROC to CHI leg of the trip and flying or driving from ROC to make it to CHI in time to catch #7. Arrrgh. One would think an almost 5 hour connection time would be "viable", but not in this environment-maddening.
Click to expand...

Sorry that the Cardinal can't be of any help to you. I guess the promises from NS last week about improving performance on their Cleveland-Chicago route was just so much hot air.I guess that is typical of executives and politicians….. just tell them what they want to hear.


----------



## richm49

Anderson said:


> richm49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 49/12 was late due to a collision. Not NS's fault. I just got in a jam that on the necessary travel day, the Cardinal wasn't running.
Click to expand...

According to statusmaps.net 49/LSL(10/12) did lose time between Erie,PA and Cleveland due to the collision. It was 53 minutes late depart ERI and 4 hours, 6 minutes late departing CLE. But it arrived in CHI 10 hours,25 minutes late. That means that AFTER the collision just outside of Erie,PA this train lost ANOTHER 6 hours,19 minutes getting from CLE to CHI. That sure as heck sounds like a delay on tracks owned by NS to me.


----------



## Anderson

richm49 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> richm49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> And 49 (10/12) is sitting in Indiana. Estimated arrival in Chicago of almost nine hours late. Brutal. If these delays continue into November I'm going to abandon my plans to take Amtrak to Colorado and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 49/LSL(10/12) arrived in CHI at 8:10 P.M. 10 hours,25 minutes late!!!!!! Not only did it miss EVERY LD West Coast train but it even missed connection to City of New Orleans that departs at 8:00 P.M.!!! I will be staying as far away as possible from this mess of delays in the IN-OH freight sinkhole where Amtrak trains and their pax are forced to wait through horrendous delays. 49/LSL was already nearly 7 hours late departing SOB and it then lost another 3.5 hours getting into CHI!!!!! I am so glad that I altered my travel plans away from 49/LSL and changed my departure date by one day so I could take 51/Cardinal which has been early or on time 15 of it's last 21 trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 49/12 was late due to a collision. Not NS's fault. I just got in a jam that on the necessary travel day, the Cardinal wasn't running.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to statusmaps.net 49/LSL(10/12) did lose time between Erie,PA and Cleveland due to the collision. It was 53 minutes late depart ERI and 4 hours, 6 minutes late departing CLE. But it arrived in CHI 10 hours,25 minutes late. That means that AFTER the collision just outside of Erie,PA this train lost ANOTHER 6 hours,19 minutes getting from CLE to CHI. That sure as heck sounds like a delay on tracks owned by NS to me.
Click to expand...

Playing Devil's Advocate here (and I'm not even meeting him in the Club Acela!), there's nothing saying that the train would have dropped six hours had it not dropped the first three out of Erie due to the collision. Out-of-slot cascades are never pretty, and I've seen some real doozies over the years. I'll hit NS for trains that are close to on time on their way into the delay zone, but I feel compelled to give them at least some benefit of the doubt when the train is already super-late coming into the zone.

Actually, considering the amount of time lost between SOB and CHI (nearly four hours), it looks to me like the crew went illegal. If the last crew change was at Cleveland (I can't recall if the crews change at Cleveland or Toledo off the top of my head), they probably got shoved into a siding by dispatch somewhere outside of CHI when it became clear the crew was going to expire.

Edit: Just remembered that 2010 in CHI would be 2110 in CLE. That means this is almost definitely a crew issue IMHO...that train probably should not have left SOB with the old crew. It is very likely that they expired halfway between SOB and CHI.


----------



## thetourman

My brother is on today's Lake Shore Limited. 49(10/14) He just texted me at 14:32 hours and they are sitting in the Gary area.

The train arrived in Toledo only 37 minutes late but left about 1 hour and 49 minutes late and the next stop in Bryan (about 55 miles away) it was 2 hours and 57 minutes late. This may have been because of single track situation somewhere between Toledo and Bryan.

They are still losing time.

They are estimating arriving over four hours late.


----------



## afigg

Well, another interesting day for the westbound CL and LSL. They both got to Toledo less than an hour late and then got jammed up between TOL and CHI with #49 taking the bigger hit. So the NS meltdown shifted back to west of Toledo. Too bad because 10/14 was a _good_ day for the western LD trains arriving at CHI except for the TE which got delayed in thr STL-SPI work zone.

CL #29(10/13) arrived at TOL 46 minutes late (!), departed SOB 3 hours and 20 minutes late, arrived CHI at 12:20 PM 3 hours and 35 minutes late.

LSL #49(10/13) arrived at TOL 34 minutes late (!!), stopped at TOL for over an hour and a half, maybe crew rest problems?, departed TOL 1 hour and 49 minutes late, arrived CHI at 2 PM 4 hours and 15 minutes late.

If both trains got in soon enough, hopefully they can both depart eastward on time tonight, stopping the delay death spiral which affected LSL #48(10/13) which departed CHI 4 hours and 50 minutes late at 2:20 AM CT (that must have been fun :blink: ).


----------



## afigg

Norfolk Southern posted a new service status update on October 13. Some good news with regards to prospects for the LSL and CL time-keeping to get better. Eventually. Selected excerpts (boldface mine):



> IMPROVEMENT ACTIVITIES:
> 
> NS qualified more than 100 conductors in September and will qualify nearly 600 conductors during the fourth quarter, largely concentrated in the Northern Region of our network between Chicago and New Jersey.
> 
> We successfully completed the transfer of 120 conductors and engineers who are now in service on the Dearborn Division,
> 
> ... [more hiring and locomotive stats]
> 
> Beginning in December, NS will start to see the benefit of the $160 million expansion of the Bellevue classification yard, with full operations phased in during the first quarter of 2015. This strategic investment will provide additional capacity to our Northern Region and improve the fluidity of our network by reducing car handling, car miles, and transit times.
> 
> *The Englewood Flyover, which eliminates interference from more than 70 commuter trains per day in Chicago, is now fully operational.*
> 
> *More than 80 percent of the rail, tie, and surfacing work on the Northern region has been completed.*


Ok, so more than 80% of track work has been completed. So _when_ does it get completed for the season? Is October 30 the date?



> SERVICE IMPACTS:
> 
> The following track maintenance projects are scheduled for October:
> 
> 1. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects east of Elkhart to Pittsburgh, scheduled through October 30.
> 
> 3. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects between Dayton and Sandusky, scheduled through October 30.
> 
> 4. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, scheduled through October 30.


----------



## Barciur

That would be nice since I'm travelling on the 29 on October 31


----------



## richm49

afigg said:


> Norfolk Southern posted a new service status update on October 13. Some good news with regards to prospects for the LSL and CL time-keeping to get better. Eventually. Selected excerpts (boldface mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMPROVEMENT ACTIVITIES:
> 
> NS qualified more than 100 conductors in September and will qualify nearly 600 conductors during the fourth quarter, largely concentrated in the Northern Region of our network between Chicago and New Jersey.
> 
> We successfully completed the transfer of 120 conductors and engineers who are now in service on the Dearborn Division,
> 
> ... [more hiring and locomotive stats]
> 
> Beginning in December, NS will start to see the benefit of the $160 million expansion of the Bellevue classification yard, with full operations phased in during the first quarter of 2015. This strategic investment will provide additional capacity to our Northern Region and improve the fluidity of our network by reducing car handling, car miles, and transit times.
> 
> *The Englewood Flyover, which eliminates interference from more than 70 commuter trains per day in Chicago, is now fully operational.*
> 
> *More than 80 percent of the rail, tie, and surfacing work on the Northern region has been completed.*
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so more than 80% of track work has been completed. So _when_ does it get completed for the season? Is October 30 the date?
> 
> 
> 
> SERVICE IMPACTS:
> 
> The following track maintenance projects are scheduled for October:
> 
> 1. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects east of Elkhart to Pittsburgh, scheduled through October 30.
> 
> 3. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects between Dayton and Sandusky, scheduled through October 30.
> 
> 4. Expect 1 to 4 hours train delay for projects between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, scheduled through October 30.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Over on trainorders.com I found this reply from NS to the STB regarding their inquiry about poor OTP for Amtrak over NS tracks. I won't bore you with the details since it mostly states the same info about hiring new employees,completion of Englewood Flyover and also mentions attempts to re-route some traffic away from the affected area. Here is the condensed version of their conclusion paragraph to that reply to the STB. " NS recognizes Amtrak OTP on several of its routes traveling between Toledo and Chicago has been reduced recently. Since NS is pursuing many remedial measures that have different timeframes we can not point to any single date when service will return to normal levels. Expected improvements will be gradual over the coming months and will be subject to other factors including weather and independent operations over the Chicago gateway". Sure sounds to me like they are leaving themselves an escape route if/when this mess blows up again.


----------



## neroden

Still looks like going through Michigan would be faster. But I don't know how much of the mess is in the Porter-Chicago area.


----------



## Barciur

We been quick to moan so give credit where it's due. 30 has made it to Chicago with a 1 hour delay while 48 has made it to Cleveland with a 2 hour delay. Really not bad!


----------



## Anderson

Barciur said:


> We been quick to moan so give credit where it's due. 30 has made it to Chicago with a 1 hour delay while 48 has made it to Cleveland with a 2 hour delay. Really not bad!


They made it to Cleveland. Not to Chicago yet and they're over an hour overdue into WTI.

Edit: In the meantime, 48 is offering a fine morning departure from Cleveland. Let's just not take that deep breath until the train gets into the station...


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> We been quick to moan so give credit where it's due. 30 has made it to Chicago with a 1 hour delay while 48 has made it to Cleveland with a 2 hour delay. Really not bad!


#48(10/14) departed CLE 3 hours and 6 minutes late. I checked a couple of times and it was sitting just west of CLE not moving for some time. With the NS meltdown, have to wait until the train clears the NS segment entirely. Now the LSL has to get through CSX in upper state NY. And not have someone drive through the grade crossing in front of it.

#30(10/14) made it to PGH about 75 minutes late, so it may get to WAS only an hour or 2 late.


----------



## jis

STB is now getting on Norfolk Southern's case....

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/feds_ask_norfolk_southern_to_e.html

They could apparently going to go after NS on the failure to do 80% OTP over two quarters, which they can without waiting for any court ruling on anything (although Gene Poon does not think they will, but then he seems to be always a freight railroad apologist and generally anti-Amtrak in his leanings)


----------



## afigg

Link to the reply letter from NS to the Chairmain of the STB (6 page scanned PDF). States that installing signal upgrades for PTC (Positive Train Control) is a large component of the track work being done, which because of the looming legislative deadline, the freight (and commuter) railroads are scrambling to meet. Fair amount of background and status info in the letter for those interested.

Saw a report in the Washington Post that weather models are predicting the return of the polar vortex this winter, although not as long or severe as last winter. Still, better hurry up with the track projects!


----------



## keelhauled

In a truly shocking turn of events, the 10/14 CL #29 arrived Chicago just an hour and a half late today, actually making up time between South Bend and Chicago, while the 10/14 LSL #49 is following right on its heels and may make it into Chicago less than an hour late. Meanwhile, the 10/14 #30 is just an hour and a half late in West Virginia. #48 was the only train of the 14th to be delayed by several hours, and was down a little over three hours at Erie. Still much better than the previous day's train, which limped into New York six and a half hours late.

Ironically, the much hyped reliability of the Cardinal seems to have failed it today, as #50 of 10/14 is about three hours late in West Virginia.


----------



## afigg

keelhauled said:


> Ironically, the much hyped reliability of the Cardinal seems to have failed it today, as #50 of 10/14 is about three hours late in West Virginia.


The #50(10/14) Cardinal was 3 hours late getting to Indianapolis, so something happened there. AS for "much hyped reliability", not so much as "hyping" it, but amazement that the Cardinal, routinely one of the least reliable LD trains for on-time performance, has been doing 1) much better than the CL and LSL; 2) has seen real improvements in OTP.
The westbound #29 and #49 did have a good run in that they got in well before lunch time, which is a big improvement over the past few weeks. However, the #350 (10/15) Wolverine departed CHI on time at 7:20 AM and was 1 hour and 43 minutes late getting to New Buffalo MI, so the Chicago to Porter corridor still has delays.


----------



## jis

What is overall amazing is CSX is no longer doing much worse than the others and often is doing quite well at least on the Atlantic Coast Line, and now apparently even on the Cardinal Line. Now if they could only get their act together on the Water Level Route!


----------



## neroden

FWIW, I genuinely believe that NS is trying to fix its mess as quickly as possible, and that they really do want to run Amtrak on time. NS dug itself into a giant hole due to gross failure to plan for expansion of demand. This is a really bad management error and it's something they're going to need to try to recover from ASAP, but it sounds to me like they are waking up to their mistake and trying to correct it.

This is the same error which put BNSF in a giant hole. And of course it's the same error UP made back in the 1990s before *its* meltdown. But when the meltdown is on the Chicago to Cleveland corridor, it's more important nationally. UP or BNSF can fall apart with only "local" impacts, but Chicago to Cleveland is *the* bridge line for all traffic; just as this is the link between East and West on Amtrak and so affects all of Amtrak, it's also the primary link between east and west on the freight lines. So the STB is getting involved, as it should, and thank goodness they are.

CSX is making the same mistake; its CEO has firmly buried his head in the sand, and keeps saying things like "you don't build a church for Easter Sunday", despite demand being way up all the time, year round, year after year. Luckily (?) for CSX, it has been attracting less business than UP, BNSF or NS, so it hasn't melted down lately, but it could do so any time with that management attitude.

Of the Class Is, the only one which seems (to me) to be specifically hostile to passenger trains right now (rather than simply generally failing to have enough capacity to handle demand) is CP, run by the infamous E Hunter Harrison (formerly at CN). And sure enough, once Harrison took over, CP has rocketed into the lead for high "delay minutes per passenger mile" most months. Meanwhile, once Harrison left CN, CN started slowly getting better relative to the other Class Is (so perhaps Mongeau doesn't have the same knee-jerk hatred of passenger trains).

If Amtrak is looking ahead at the next few years, this raises issues for the Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express, and Empire Builder (and the Hiawatha, potentially, but the CP segment on the Hiawatha seems to be low-traffic enough that it runs reliably).


----------



## jis

Fortunately CP is looking to sell the old D&H and a lead contender to buy it from CP is NS, the last I heard. So NS will most likely own the CP line at least from Rouses Point, if not somewhere closer to Montreal down to Wilkes Barre via Schenectady, Binghamton, Scranton, if that comes to pass. Which will probably bee good for the Adirondack and Ethan Allen.


----------



## richm49

keelhauled said:


> In a truly shocking turn of events, the 10/14 CL #29 arrived Chicago just an hour and a half late today, actually making up time between South Bend and Chicago, while the 10/14 LSL #49 is following right on its heels and may make it into Chicago less than an hour late. Meanwhile, the 10/14 #30 is just an hour and a half late in West Virginia. #48 was the only train of the 14th to be delayed by several hours, and was down a little over three hours at Erie. Still much better than the previous day's train, which limped into New York six and a half hours late.
> 
> Ironically, the much hyped reliability of the Cardinal seems to have failed it today, as #50 of 10/14 is about three hours late in West Virginia.


No one needs to hype the OTP of the Cardinal. Although the eastbound Cardinal( #50) has struggled somewhat with it's OTO the westbound Cardinal(#51) has not. According to data from status maps.net archives here is the OTP of #51/Cardinal for the mont of September and October so far:

10/12 3 minutes early 9/28 22 minutes early 9/14 41 minutes late

10/10 8 minutes late 9/26 2 minutes early 9/12 on time

10/8 1 hour,7 minutes late 9/24 40 minutes late 9/10 22 minutes early

10/5 10 minutes early 9/21 35 minutes early 9/7 15 minutes early

10/3 12 minutes early 9/19 1 minutes early 9/5 52 minutes late

10/1 15 minutes early 9/17 6 minutes early 9/3 on time

That is a total of 18 trips during which 51/Cardinal arrived CHI either ON TIME or EARLY 13 times out of 18 trips! Only once was it over an hour late(10/8 -1 hour,7 minutes) That is an OTP of 72.2% for this route. If I am traveling from NYP or WAS or points in between and need to get to CHI for LD West Coast connections then the 51/Cardinal is the train I would take( provided that you have the travel flexibility to fit it's 3/day/week schedule into your itinerary). I think that the OTP of Westbound 51/Cardinal speaks for itself without any hype from me or anyone else.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Fortunately CP is looking to sell the old D&H and a lead contender to buy it from CP is NS, the last I heard. So NS will most likely own the CP line at least from Rouses Point, if not somewhere closer to Montreal down to Wilkes Barre via Schenectady, Binghamton, Scranton, if that comes to pass. Which will probably bee good for the Adirondack and Ethan Allen.


The rumor, unfortunately, was that CP was only planning to sell the line south of Schenectady. So. :-(


----------



## neroden

richm49 said:


> provided that you have the travel flexibility to fit it's 3/day/week schedule into your itinerary


That 3/week situation is a curse. I really wish Amtrak could change that sooner rather than later, but I don't see how.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately CP is looking to sell the old D&H and a lead contender to buy it from CP is NS, the last I heard. So NS will most likely own the CP line at least from Rouses Point, if not somewhere closer to Montreal down to Wilkes Barre via Schenectady, Binghamton, Scranton, if that comes to pass. Which will probably bee good for the Adirondack and Ethan Allen.
> 
> 
> 
> The rumor, unfortunately, was that CP was only planning to sell the line south of Schenectady. So. :-(
Click to expand...

Oh well.... I of course fail to understand why CP wants to hold onto the north of Schenectady part. They no longer exercise any of their trackage rights except on the portion that plan to sell to NS. So just keeping that part makes little sense. But c'est la vie.


----------



## acelafan

richm49 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> In a truly shocking turn of events, the 10/14 CL #29 arrived Chicago just an hour and a half late today, actually making up time between South Bend and Chicago, while the 10/14 LSL #49 is following right on its heels and may make it into Chicago less than an hour late. Meanwhile, the 10/14 #30 is just an hour and a half late in West Virginia. #48 was the only train of the 14th to be delayed by several hours, and was down a little over three hours at Erie. Still much better than the previous day's train, which limped into New York six and a half hours late.
> 
> Ironically, the much hyped reliability of the Cardinal seems to have failed it today, as #50 of 10/14 is about three hours late in West Virginia.
> 
> 
> 
> No one needs to hype the OTP of the Cardinal. Although the eastbound Cardinal( #50) has struggled somewhat with it's OTO the westbound Cardinal(#51) has not. According to data from status maps.net archives here is the OTP of #51/Cardinal for the mont of September and October so far:10/12 3 minutes early 9/28 22 minutes early 9/14 41 minutes late
> 
> 10/10 8 minutes late 9/26 2 minutes early 9/12 on time
> 
> 10/8 1 hour,7 minutes late 9/24 40 minutes late 9/10 22 minutes early
> 
> 10/5 10 minutes early 9/21 35 minutes early 9/7 15 minutes early
> 
> 10/3 12 minutes early 9/19 1 minutes early 9/5 52 minutes late
> 
> 10/1 15 minutes early 9/17 6 minutes early 9/3 on time
> 
> That is a total of 18 trips during which 51/Cardinal arrived CHI either ON TIME or EARLY 13 times out of 18 trips! Only once was it over an hour late(10/8 -1 hour,7 minutes) That is an OTP of 72.2% for this route. If I am traveling from NYP or WAS or points in between and need to get to CHI for LD West Coast connections then the 51/Cardinal is the train I would take( provided that you have the travel flexibility to fit it's 3/day/week schedule into your itinerary). I think that the OTP of Westbound 51/Cardinal speaks for itself without any hype from me or anyone else.
Click to expand...

I find these statistics very interesting. Here is some info about the severity of delays for arriving LD trains into Chicago since January 1 of this year. The epic delays (like more than 8 hours) still go to the Builder but it has been better in recent weeks...although winter is a-coming....

Trains Arriving into Chicago Jan 1 through Oct 14 2014

No Name # Arr 2+ Hrs 4+ Hrs 6+ Hrs 8+ Hrs 12+ Hrs

4 SW Chief 287 52 14 8 6 2

6 CA Zephyr 287 153 79 35 17 8

8 Empire Builder 285 227 145 73 36 13

22 Texas Eagle 287 92 27 7 2 0

29 Capital 287 109 42 10 3 0

49 Lake Shore 286 178 71 19 7 0

51 Cardinal 123 13 4 0 0 0

58 City N.O. 286 14 3 1 1 0

(The formatting kept messing me up - sorry for multiple edits.)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

We left CHI on time (30/15) and here we sit an hour later in South Chicago.


----------



## keelhauled

richm49 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> In a truly shocking turn of events, the 10/14 CL #29 arrived Chicago just an hour and a half late today, actually making up time between South Bend and Chicago, while the 10/14 LSL #49 is following right on its heels and may make it into Chicago less than an hour late. Meanwhile, the 10/14 #30 is just an hour and a half late in West Virginia. #48 was the only train of the 14th to be delayed by several hours, and was down a little over three hours at Erie. Still much better than the previous day's train, which limped into New York six and a half hours late.
> 
> Ironically, the much hyped reliability of the Cardinal seems to have failed it today, as #50 of 10/14 is about three hours late in West Virginia.
> 
> 
> 
> No one needs to hype the OTP of the Cardinal. Although the eastbound Cardinal( #50) has struggled somewhat with it's OTO the westbound Cardinal(#51) has not. According to data from status maps.net archives here is the OTP of #51/Cardinal for the mont of September and October so far:
> 
> 10/12 3 minutes early 9/28 22 minutes early 9/14 41 minutes late
> 
> 10/10 8 minutes late 9/26 2 minutes early 9/12 on time
> 
> 10/8 1 hour,7 minutes late 9/24 40 minutes late 9/10 22 minutes early
> 
> 10/5 10 minutes early 9/21 35 minutes early 9/7 15 minutes early
> 
> 10/3 12 minutes early 9/19 1 minutes early 9/5 52 minutes late
> 
> 10/1 15 minutes early 9/17 6 minutes early 9/3 on time
> 
> That is a total of 18 trips during which 51/Cardinal arrived CHI either ON TIME or EARLY 13 times out of 18 trips! Only once was it over an hour late(10/8 -1 hour,7 minutes) That is an OTP of 72.2% for this route. If I am traveling from NYP or WAS or points in between and need to get to CHI for LD West Coast connections then the 51/Cardinal is the train I would take( provided that you have the travel flexibility to fit it's 3/day/week schedule into your itinerary). I think that the OTP of Westbound 51/Cardinal speaks for itself without any hype from me or anyone else.
Click to expand...

Oh sure, I wasn't making light of it or anything, I just thought it was interesting that for one day at least the normal roles were reversed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AmtrakBlue said:


> We left CHI on time (30/15) and here we sit an hour later in South Chicago.


Is Penny giving Yoga Lessons to pass the time? Y'all have a good night thru the Ohio/Indiana Twilight Zone!!


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately CP is looking to sell the old D&H and a lead contender to buy it from CP is NS, the last I heard. So NS will most likely own the CP line at least from Rouses Point, if not somewhere closer to Montreal down to Wilkes Barre via Schenectady, Binghamton, Scranton, if that comes to pass. Which will probably bee good for the Adirondack and Ethan Allen.
> 
> 
> 
> The rumor, unfortunately, was that CP was only planning to sell the line south of Schenectady. So. :-(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh well.... I of course fail to understand why CP wants to hold onto the north of Schenectady part. They no longer exercise any of their trackage rights except on the portion that plan to sell to NS. So just keeping that part makes little sense. But c'est la vie.
Click to expand...

Supposedly there's one freight customer north of Schenectady who CP serves from the north, and who they still want to serve. I forget who.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakBlue said:


> We left CHI on time (30/15) and here we sit an hour later in South Chicago.


Well, it's interesting in and of itself that you made it to South Chicago. This means the current problems are in Indiana, not Illinois.


----------



## pennyk

I am on 30 also right now. We made it to SOB but not Elkart. We have been sitting west of Elkart for quite a while.


----------



## Shanghai

*I hope you will make your connection in WAS. As for being in SOB, it is better than being SOL!!*


----------



## AmtrakBlue

They are bussing #91 (SS) pax. Penny is still on the train. We're just a little over 2 hours late into PGH.

(I'm still in bed - needed a LOT of beauty sleep  )


----------



## Barciur

Glad to hear things are a lot better in the recent days and connection to the Pennsy is being made!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Pennsy was in the station and left before us.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Surprised that they bused the #91 pax from PGH-WAS since the connection from #30 to #91 is "temporarily" suspended and only the #30 to #97 connection is Guaranteed!


----------



## Ryan

I'm sure they were guaranteed connections when the tickets were sold, and a bus ride to the train you're supposed to be on is better than an involuntary downgrade to coach or a night in DC on Amtrak's dime.


----------



## pennyk

Pax connecting to 125 were also bused to WAS. It is my understanding that the 91 connection is no longer guaranteed but was when I made my reservation. I chose 97 instead.


----------



## Ryan

Good choice. Looks like a very reasonable trip for you guys, more daylight for the scenic part of the route!


----------



## Barciur

AmtrakBlue said:


> Pennsy was in the station and left before us.


A connection was made though I'm sure?


----------



## pennyk

30 just left Harpers Ferry on its way to Rockville and WAS.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Barciur said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pennsy was in the station and left before us.
> 
> 
> 
> A connection was made though I'm sure?
Click to expand...

I think so. I woke up after we were stopped and the Pennsy was sitting on the next track and left maybe 10 mins later.


----------



## afigg

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think so. I woke up after we were stopped and the Pennsy was sitting on the next track and left maybe 10 mins later.


According to the time stamps, #30(10/15) arrived at PGH at 7:14 AM and the Pennsylvanian departed at 7:30 AM. The CL arrived just in time for the connection. It has made few of the connections eastbound in recent weeks.


----------



## Orangesaint

49 was almost on-time today, just 34 minutes late.

It's still had some tough days but you can see the signs of it having turned the corner from its worse days, somewhat.


----------



## benale

Looking at on time performance, it seems things are improving for 29 and 30. Hope I don't regret this, but I want double points and to ride on a Superliner and I booked a same day trip from Martinsburg to Rockville and back.. The first leg is with their Smart Fares, so I'm stuck with that. For $9. I can live with that. I figure if 30 is five hours late, I can get off in Harpers Ferry and return from there. Any further delays, I'll have to bag it... I used to routinely do Martinsburg to DC and back the same day with no problem. Haven't been able to do it since Double Days began because of the horrendous timekeeping. I'm traveling a week from Monday 10/27.


----------



## afigg

The situation has improved this week for the CL and LSL where the extreme delays (>5-6 hours late) getting to CHI have gone away (for now). But we still seeing on one or more of the four trains (east and westbound) running over 2-3 hours late.

For the trains that departed on Wednesday Oct. 15, westbound #49 got delayed on CSX territory: departed ALB 15 minutes late, arrived at CLE 3 hours late, then arrived CHI 4 hours and 11 minutes late. #30(10/15) departed CHI on-time, arrived WAS 2 hours and 52 minutes late and #48(10/15) arrived

NYP 2 hours and 22 minutes late.

Today, for the trains that departed Oct. 16, it is #30 which departed PGH over 3 hours late enroute to WAS, while #29, #49 did ok getting into CHI in time for mid/late morning coffee. LSL #48, still enroute, departed Buffalo on-time before getting delayed by CSX and may still have a shot at arriving at NYP on-time.


----------



## acelafan

benale said:


> Looking at on time performance, it seems things are improving for 29 and 30. Hope I don't regret this, but I want double points and to ride on a Superliner and I booked a same day trip from Martinsburg to Rockville and back.. The first leg is with their Smart Fares, so I'm stuck with that. For $9. I can live with that. I figure if 30 is five hours late, I can get off in Harpers Ferry and return from there. Any further delays, I'll have to bag it... I used to routinely do Martinsburg to DC and back the same day with no problem. Haven't been able to do it since Double Days began because of the horrendous timekeeping. I'm traveling a week from Monday 10/27.


Looking at past history for same-day train connections is a good exercise for the Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database.

Below is a screenshot (with some post-editing to add *RED X's*) that shows the departure time of train #30 versus the departure time of train #29 at Rockville, MD for the last 31 days.

Out of 31 possible connections, 23 were likely missed. Some misses were due to trains not running but mostly it was the late inbound #30. September 20 and 21 were extremely close calls with a 2-minute difference in the trains leaving the station.

Note that these data indicate the trains departing the station, so it's conceivable they arrived a few minutes earlier. Amtrak.com does not have every piece of data available for tracking trains, but you can get the general idea here.

The URL to see this list on a webpage is http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?date_start=9%2F15%2F2014&date_end=10%2F17%2F2014&a_train_num=30&c_train_num=29&station=rkv&sort_dir=DESC and you can click the links in blue to see the Amtrak Status Maps history for each train and where it got hung up on its journey.


----------



## Ryan

On the other hand, it made it for the last 4 in a row! Things may be turning around.


----------



## afigg

acelafan said:


> Below is a screenshot (with some post-editing to add *RED X's*) that shows the departure time of train #30 versus the departure time of train #29 at Rockville, MD for the last 31 days.
> 
> Out of 31 possible connections, 23 were likely missed. Some misses were due to trains not running but mostly it was the late inbound #30. September 20 and 21 were extremely close calls with a 2-minute difference in the trains leaving the station.


I had not thought about using the connections history feature in the status maps archive in that way to check turnaround connections on the same train service. Neat.
I ran the connections check for the CL at RKV for the same 9/15 to 10/17 period in 2013 and for the month of April 2014. There were several shortish turnarounds, but no missed connections for either period. Emphasizes just bad the schedule keeping performance of the CL has been in the past month (and since late May) compared to the normal OTP.

Today, it appears that #29, #49(10/17) are doing pretty good heading to CHI, #48(10/17) departed CLE 1 hour and 47 minutes late, but #30(10/17) has taken the hit, arriving at PGH over 4 hours late.


----------



## adt1982

NS has begun routing trains that connect to BNSF in Chicago farther south with new connections in St. Louis or Kansas City. This is apparently in effort to relieve some congestion on the Chicago line.


----------



## neroden

NS is also transferring freight trains to BNSF at Streator (IL), apparently. Anything to get them off the Chicago Line. (I don't know if they're transferring trains as far south as Memphis, though that would be another possibility.)


----------



## TrainPossibilities

Why not depart the LSL in South Bend, cab over to the South Shore Line, and take a commuter train into CHI??


----------



## Trollopian

This is for Benale, who's apparently looking to soak up some AGR points by doing a same-day trip between Martinsburg and Rockville:

As others have pointed out, that's a bit dicey given the CL's recent on-time (hah!) record. Chances are you'd get stuck with a long wait at Martinsburg for the DC-bound train. But remember that you probably have the option of MARC too. Maybe not ideal, as you describe your goals, but pretty good assurance against being stranded or having to cut your trip short in Harpers Ferry.


----------



## Ryan

No MARC service to help out here.


----------



## afigg

This thread has quieted down now the CL and LSL have improved to just being late, not break connections late or really, really late. The westbound trains this morning did not lose much time on the NS segment. The eastbound CL #30 (10/19) got delayed the most with additional delays on the CSX segment.The results for the trains departing Oct. 19:

CL #29: departed WAS on-time, dep PGH 1 hour and 6 minutes late, arr CHI 1 hour and 40 minutes late.

LSL #49: departed NYP 17 minutes late, dep CLE 36 minutes late, arr CHI 51 minutes late

CL #30: departed CHI on-time, dep PGH 1 hour and 53 minutes late, arr WAS 2 hours and 38 minutes late.

LSL #48: departed CHI on-time, dep CLE 25 minutes late, arr NYP 14 minutes late (closest to on-time in over a month).


----------



## Michael061282

So what changed, both to cause the meltdown and to apparently fix it?


----------



## afigg

Michael061282 said:


> So what changed, both to cause the meltdown and to apparently fix it?


Read a few pages back in this thread. Bunch of reasons for the meltdown easing up: completion of Englewood Flyover and likely wrapping up of some track projects; temporary transfer of conductors and engineers to the line and getting them qualified to ease crew shortages; moving empty oil trains to another route; apparently clearing the traffic backlog to some extent; getting a letter from the Chairman of the Surface Transportation Board asking how NS plans to address the delays for the Amtrak trains which may have gotten the attention of NS management at the highest level.

But we don't know for sure if the extreme delays have truly been fixed or is this just a interlude before another round of 5, 6, 10 hour delays.


----------



## Michael061282

thanks for the summary.. i tried to read back a ways but after 20 some pages the eyes glossing over, or that could have just been my contacts.


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the October 20 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time.

CL #29(10/20): arrived CHI 1 hour and 7 minutes late.

LSL #49(10/20): arrived CHI 2 hours and 41 minutes late.

CL #30(10/20): arrived WAS 2 hours late.

LSL #48(10/20): arrived NYP 2 hours and 55 minutes late. Lost 2.5 hours going from CHI to SOB at the start of the trip.


----------



## neroden

So, back to the old delay levels. Wasn't Englewood Flyover supposed to make the delays *better*? It seems like all the Amtrak timekeeping improvements expected from Englewood have been eaten up by other failures on the part of NS and/or CSX.


----------



## jis

Yeah, back to 2-hr-ish delays from the 6 to 10 hour delays that NS had brought upon us. Looks like a little collective shaming by cohorts and the ARA and a prod from the STB did the trick.

NS still has to finish fixing Elkhart and CSX still needs to get its act together in NY State though.


----------



## montana mike

At least with 2+ hour delays most connections can be made and trip planning is reasonable. Those much longer delays were ridiculous!


----------



## Slasharoo

Today's 29 was only an hour late into Chicago. Rumor was that there was an Amtrak VP on board, though I did not meet him myself. On a sadder note, TSA pulled a couple random Hiawatha riders aside before boarding our connecting train.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> So, back to the old delay levels. Wasn't Englewood Flyover supposed to make the delays *better*? It seems like all the Amtrak timekeeping improvements expected from Englewood have been eaten up by other failures on the part of NS and/or CSX.


We don't know if the Englewood Flyover project is completely done yet. The Metra trains have been moved, but I saw a post on trainorders that the now unused Rock Island tracks were getting pulled up and that NS was going to remove the diamond crossing. Could be some delays from project wrap-up work. The NS service update also stated that track maintenance projects were scheduled to October 30, so perhaps the OTP will improve after the end of the month. Or not.

Anyway, might as well post the destination results for the October 21 departure CL and LSLs. All departed CHI/WAS/NYP on time. Better results than the day before. 

CL #29(10/21): arrived CHI 58 minutes late.

LSL #49(10/21): arrived CHI 1 hour and 53 minutes late. (1:23 late arriving at CLE, made up time, then lost an hour between WTI and CHI).

CL #30(10/21): arrived WAS 2 hours and 34 minutes late. (Departed EKH 2;32 late)

LSL #48(10/21): arrived NYP 23 minutes late. (departed BYN 1:11 late, ALB 12 minutes late)


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Hi,

New to the board. But wanted to ask a question to those knowledgeable. AMTRAK sent out a message on the 20th of October that to help with the delays of the CL, it has now taken the Sightseeing/Lounge car out of the train and the Diner will become the Diner and the Lounge combined.

The end date for this move, that supposedly speeds up service, is the 20th of November.

My question as a future passenger on this train who was looking forward to the SSL car, how much does this dampen the trip and how crowded will the new dining car/lounge car become?

I feel this is not what I bought my fare for, and seems unnecessary. Further, If AMTRAK finds that one engine and 4 car trains save fuel, is there a risk they may permanently make the change?

HF


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Hi,
> 
> New to the board. But wanted to ask a question to those knowledgeable. AMTRAK sent out a message on the 20th of October that to help with the delays of the CL, it has now taken the Sightseeing/Lounge car out of the train and the Diner will become the Diner and the Lounge combined.
> 
> The end date for this move, that supposedly speeds up service, is the 20th of November.
> 
> My question as a future passenger on this train who was looking forward to the SSL car, how much does this dampen the trip and how crowded will the new dining car/lounge car become?
> 
> I feel this is not what I bought my fare for, and seems unnecessary. Further, If AMTRAK finds that one engine and 4 car trains save fuel, is there a risk they may permanently make the change?
> 
> HF


There will be but a fraction of Lounging space available, especially if the Conductors do not relocate to their space in the Transdorm (assuming there is one in consist). Moreover the serving area for the Cafe is tiny compared to the Lower Level of the SSL. If the train is crowded, it will be a nightmare.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Hopefully this is just temporary since the scenery between Pittsburgh and Washington is worth a Sightseer Lounge!

The CCCs are one of Amtrak's poorer ideas, being a hybrid Diner and Lounge and not really full filling either function adequately. Crews and most LD riders dislike them, especially when substituted for a PPC or SSL!!

They are a Superliner version of the Diner- Lite that the Cardinal is stuck with!


----------



## Pete-M3

I rode #29 today from WAS to WTI (Waterloo). Yes, it was the 5 car version: one P42, two regular sleepers, the CCC, a coach-bag and another coach. The train was close to 4 hours late at WTI and got later subsequently. As of about 12:40 PM it was almost 4 1/2 hours late, just out of Elkhart, so there has been some backsliding today. The train was not what I would call "jammed", but it was well-populated. Interestingly, the dining section of the diner-lounge was not all that well patronized at dinner last night or at breakfast this morning. They were mostly sleeping car passengers, coming for the included meal, I presume (my seat mates were all from the sleepers). Fortunately, the steak dinner is still offered (and good). Maybe most coach passengers brought their own food or bought carry-out from the counter in the lounge. The absence of the SSL was not really a big deal, since it got dark fairly soon after departure and it certainly was dark in the most scenic parts after Cumberland, but clearly the "lounge" section of the diner-lounge is no substitute for the SSL (very limited seating). Mostly, it seems to be "carry-out" or "sit down, eat fast and leave". There were a couple of people that seemed to be parked there with their computers, but there was not much parking space for others. Maybe they need to install one hour meters (that's a joke, folks) Still, not a bad trip and, if you are not time-critical (I wasn't), it's more train time, which is good.


----------



## keelhauled

OlympianHiawatha said:


> HockeyFan1972 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> New to the board. But wanted to ask a question to those knowledgeable. AMTRAK sent out a message on the 20th of October that to help with the delays of the CL, it has now taken the Sightseeing/Lounge car out of the train and the Diner will become the Diner and the Lounge combined.
> 
> The end date for this move, that supposedly speeds up service, is the 20th of November.
> 
> My question as a future passenger on this train who was looking forward to the SSL car, how much does this dampen the trip and how crowded will the new dining car/lounge car become?
> 
> I feel this is not what I bought my fare for, and seems unnecessary. Further, If AMTRAK finds that one engine and 4 car trains save fuel, is there a risk they may permanently make the change?
> 
> HF
> 
> 
> 
> There will be but a fraction of Lounging space available, especially if the Conductors do not relocate to their space in the Transdorm (assuming there is one in consist). Moreover the serving area for the Cafe is tiny compared to the Lower Level of the SSL. If the train is crowded, it will be a nightmare.
Click to expand...

I think the point people are missing here is that in addition to cutting lounge space, Amtrak is also cutting revenue cars; according to a poster on trainorders (http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3554276), it's running with two sleepers and two coaches. Earlier in the month it was photographed (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=502565&nseq=27) with eight cars, presumably three sleepers, a diner, SSL, and three coaches. So it's not like they're just cutting dining/lounge space, the whole train is getting downsized. Presumably they've figured that there is small enough demand that they can run the single CCC.

Also, according to the trainorders thread, the on board crew is in one of the sleepers.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Thanks,

Figured as much. Hit up Amtrak on my concerns, and got the party line answer. "It was a difficult decision, but a necessary one at this time." Just hope they honor their word and reinstate the SSL NLT Nov 20th.


----------



## Ryan

If they had sufficient rolling stock, this wouldn't be a problem.

But nobody's seen fit to fund them at a level to have the rolling stock available.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

GUEST PETE M3: Question since you rode it today:

If the SSL had the bar for cocktails and social talk with new friends found on train, does the CCC compare to that? From your description this seems to be a big bust.

Amtrak saying it will help with on time efficiency, but maybe with the time of year, slow down of the tracks (lateness) and such, they just pulled the SSL until the date they said. Which so happens to be the week before Thanksgiving and the holiday season (AKA more travelers?)

I got an alert from Amtrak that the CL was experiencing wicked delays, and if you go to the Amtrak site to purchase a ticket, the CL is the cheapest fare between CHI and WAS, BUT there is a big warning about delays on the tracks of 4 hours plus before you purchase.

I have been on trains before, though not many. Mostly overseas. I admit I have not been on an Amtrak train for over 30 years. BUT have a trip scheduled with the lady and got a roomette on the CL#30 and a full room on the CL#29. But was actually looking forward to the lounge to sightsee and socialize/have a cocktail. This is really dampening my mood.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

HOckeyFan1972, have you read this whole thread? If not, maybe you should so you can understand the problems the CL (29/30) and the LSL (48/49) have been having over the last month or so and why Amtrak is having to make these changes. We don't necessarily like the changes either, but we are aware of the circumstances.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Ms AmtrakBlue,

Yes I have read the thread, the whole thread. Actually it is why i was directed to this thread when i put in to GOOGLE "Capitol Limited train delays."

I understand that's the answer Amtrak is giving. By nixing one car it is supposed to help improve the timeliness of the trains and on time AR and DP. I was interested in the reason for the delays and looking to see if i needed to change my upcoming trip to just go from Chicago to Washington DC then on to Philly instead of Chicago to Pittsburg, then Philly if there was a real risk of missing my connection in Pittsburg. This thread, plus the Amtrak representative i spoke with on the phone today (Who was very nice and helpful) helped to clear up any concerns i may have.

Now that we are past that, i also discovered today doing my looking around that one of the biggest draws i was looking forward to, and what was pitched to me by my Aunt who raved about it, was the SSL and the ability to look out, relax, and when open, have a cocktail. So you now know my disappointment that i spent some of my hard earned money on a trip for my wife and i which may or may not include a SSL.

I know. Amtrak does not like the changes. I get it. Been told that on three different media outlets i have looked int to/used today. But as a customer, i am merely looking in to how much this dampens the trip and if i am going to decide to refund my trip and find another way to get there.

Personally i know squat about trains and what you probably deal with. BUT I just cant seem to wrap my head around why ONE car makes all the difference.

Have read about "Turn Around Times" and it takes a long time to clean the SSL??? So maybe that's it? But again im merely inquiring to find out information.

HF


----------



## Pete-M3

HockeyFan1972 said:


> GUEST PETE M3: Question since you rode it today:
> 
> If the SSL had the bar for cocktails and social talk with new friends found on train, does the CCC compare to that? From your description this seems to be a big bust.
> 
> Amtrak saying it will help with on time efficiency, but maybe with the time of year, slow down of the tracks (lateness) and such, they just pulled the SSL until the date they said. Which so happens to be the week before Thanksgiving and the holiday season (AKA more travelers?)
> 
> I got an alert from Amtrak that the CL was experiencing wicked delays, and if you go to the Amtrak site to purchase a ticket, the CL is the cheapest fare between CHI and WAS, BUT there is a big warning about delays on the tracks of 4 hours plus before you purchase.
> 
> I have been on trains before, though not many. Mostly overseas. I admit I have not been on an Amtrak train for over 30 years. BUT have a trip scheduled with the lady and got a roomette on the CL#30 and a full room on the CL#29. But was actually looking forward to the lounge to sightsee and socialize/have a cocktail. This is really dampening my mood.


Does the small (tiny, even?) lounge area in a CCC somehow equate to the entire car-length area of tables and outward-facing seats of an SSL? Not even close, and the windows for viewing the passing landscape are smaller as well. On a plus note, because of the smaller-than-expected patronage in the dining section of the CCC, most people seemed to linger with their seat-mates for after-dinner conversation (it got sort of loud after a while). I even observed some of that at breakfast. If I remember correctly, even after the 7 o'clock dinner seating, there were still a couple of tables unused. As a result, the staff didn't need to encourage people to eat and leave.


----------



## Ryan

Hockey Fan,

Because of the timekeeping problems, Amtrak needed to come up with an entire new consist, so the Capitol Limited leaving Chicago in the evening doesn't have to wait for the Capitol Limited due in that morning to arrive (usually the equipment that arrives in Chicago in the morning turns around and leaves that evening, but that can't happen if the train is more than about 8 or 9 hours late).

Unfortunately, there aren't enough cars in the system to do that, so the consist of the train had to be shortened so that 4 identical transits could be used.

I'd encourage you to take your trip - the loss of the SSL, especially in winter when a large part of the trip is in the dark sucks, but it isn't the end of the world.


----------



## the_traveler

Note that "we" are not Amtrak, only mostly passengers who enjoy traveling on Amtrak. "We" have as much say towards these delays and changes as you do!


----------



## jis

keelhauled said:


> I think the point people are missing here is that in addition to cutting lounge space, Amtrak is also cutting revenue cars; according to a poster on trainorders (http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3554276), it's running with two sleepers and two coaches. Earlier in the month it was photographed (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=502565&nseq=27) with eight cars, presumably three sleepers, a diner, SSL, and three coaches. So it's not like they're just cutting dining/lounge space, the whole train is getting downsized. Presumably they've figured that there is small enough demand that they can run the single CCC.
> 
> Also, according to the trainorders thread, the on board crew is in one of the sleepers.


The Cap normally runs with three Coaches, two Sleepers and one TransDorm in which a few roomettes are sold to paying customers. In addition the crew normally gets accommodated in the TransDorm. Removal of the TransDorm essentially removes the 4 or so roomettes of the TransDorm and another 6 or so rooms from commercial use in one of the sleepers thus reducing Sleeper capacity by about 10 or so roomettes. The much bigger capacity loss is actually in the reduction from 3 to 2 Coaches.


----------



## Barciur

I believe the reason is that they do not want to make the consist inconsistent, and they do not have enough SSL's to make an extra consist, so they just pulled them. I'm not 100% sure but that seems to be the jist of it.


----------



## Barciur

If I have a trip booked that I booked 2 months ago, do you guys think there is a chance of any issues with my roomette being available due to the removal? Or would I be notified of that?


----------



## Anderson

If it was _just_ the SSLs, this wouldn't be an issue. That's an incidental thing comparatively. It's the slashing of the other stuff (sleepers and coaches) that comes across as problematic.


----------



## Pete-M3

I was watching the Chesterton, IN webcam tonight. Unlike #29 this morning (1 engine and 5 cars), tonight's #30 had 1 P42 and 7 cars and two or three nights ago, there was 1 engine and 6 cars. Apparently then, there is some flexibility under the new policy to accommodate varying ridership. Come to think about it, there would have to be because of existing reservations, some of which were made weeks or months ago. There was still no baggage car or SSL. Considering that the regular 8 - 9 car train rates 2 P42s, you have to wonder if one will be able to keep the schedule (schedule?, what schedule?), especially on the mountain grades. I know that the TE regularly runs with 1 P42 and maybe 7 cars (I've seen that many), but don't know how the grades on its route compare to #29/30's.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> If I have a trip booked that I booked 2 months ago, do you guys think there is a chance of any issues with my roomette being available due to the removal? Or would I be notified of that?


I expect what we are seeing with the temporarily reduced consists reflects the dropoff in ridership due to the persistent delays. So if enough people canceled, you will be fine in having a roomette available, although the room assignment may have changed. Coach ridership is probably taking a bigger hit than sleepers because of people switching to alternatives for the cities along the routes.

As for dropping the SSL, diner car, trans-dorm in one or more CL consists, those are the cars that are in short supply. With the extra consist for the EB, the many delays in recent months for the EB, CZ, CL, could be a lot of deferred maintenance and overhauls that they want to get caught up on before the winter weather hits to have enough spares on-hand.

Not sure why I keep doing this, but I have gotten hooked on checking the LSL and CL runs each day, so why not? Destination results for the October 22 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time or close to it. Only LSL #49 had a "good" run, the rest did not.

CL #29(10/22): arrived CHI 4 hours and 24 minutes late. [Departed PGH 2 minutes late, dep EKH 4:32 late]

LSL #49(10/22): arrived CHI 1 hour and 16 minutes late.

CL #30(10/22): arrived WAS 3 hours and 7 minutes late [dep PGH 1 hour and 43 minutes late, so it lost time on CSX.]

LSL #48(10/22): arrived NYP 3 hours and 47 minutes late [dep CLE 3 hours and 22 minutes late]


----------



## neroden

keelhauled said:


> I think the point people are missing here is that in addition to cutting lounge space, Amtrak is also cutting revenue cars; according to a poster on trainorders (http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3554276), it's running with two sleepers and two coaches. Earlier in the month it was photographed (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=502565&nseq=27) with eight cars, presumably three sleepers, a diner, SSL, and three coaches. So it's not like they're just cutting dining/lounge space, the whole train is getting downsized. Presumably they've figured that there is small enough demand that they can run the single CCC.


Yeah. The OTP collapse has really punished the Capitol Limited ridership. The LSL is holding up better.

I think this is because the Cap had a lot of end-to-end ridership, and probably a lot of riders connecting to other trains. The LSL has quite a lot of, well, upstate NY to Chicago ridership, who may actually just be going to Chicago (as I do most years). That end-to-end connecting ridership is the most likely to switch to airplanes or cancel their trips entirely when the OTP collapses and the connections break.

Hopefully the ridership will recover, but it'll probably take a year.


----------



## Chey

Barciur said:


> If I have a trip booked that I booked 2 months ago, do you guys think there is a chance of any issues with my roomette being available due to the removal? Or would I be notified of that?


I sincerely hope it's still available to you cause I have the same issue, in about 5 weeks, that I booked a month ago. So please keep us posted about what happens.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> If it was _just_ the SSLs, this wouldn't be an issue. That's an incidental thing comparatively. It's the slashing of the other stuff (sleepers and coaches) that comes across as problematic.


It is only the slashing of the TransDorm that is unusual in that sense. It is not at all unusual for the Cap to run with only two Coaches during off season.


----------



## OBS

Jis is correct. 29/30 run probably 4-5 months of the year with only 2 coaches...


----------



## City of Miami

29 today is trans dorm 2 sleep cafe 2 oaches


----------



## the_traveler

City of Miami said:


> 29 today is ... 2 oaches


The CL is really downsizing - they have even cut the "c" out to save money! :giggle:


----------



## jis

the_traveler said:


> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29 today is ... 2 oaches
> 
> 
> 
> The CL is really downsizing - they have even cut the "c" out to save money! :giggle:
Click to expand...

The "c" was needed elsewhere to add it to Amtrak to make it Amtra*c*k


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29 today is ... 2 oaches
> 
> 
> 
> The CL is really downsizing - they have even cut the "c" out to save money! :giggle:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The "c" was needed elsewhere to add it to Amtrak to make it Amtra*c*k
Click to expand...

:giggle:


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the October 23 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time except #30. Only #48(23) had a "good" run through the NS guantlet. There was a big dedication ceremony for the Englewood Flyover project in Chicago on Thursday. Well, didn't help the westbound trains on Friday.

CL #29(10/23): arrived CHI 4 hours and 39 minutes late. [departed PGH 38 minutes late]
LSL #49(10/23): arrived CHI 3 hour and 45 minutes late. {dep CLE 1 hour and 25 minutes late]

CL #30(10/23): dep CHI 18 minutes late, arrived WAS 3 hours and 40 minutes late.
LSL #48(10/23): arrived NYP 1 hour and 34 minutes late [dep CLE 44 minutes late]


----------



## acelafan

afigg said:


> Not sure why I keep doing this, but I have gotten hooked on checking the LSL and CL runs each day, so why not? Destination results for the October 22 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time or close to it. Only LSL #49 had a "good" run, the rest did not.
> 
> CL #29(10/22): arrived CHI 4 hours and 24 minutes late. [Departed PGH 2 minutes late, dep EKH 4:32 late]
> 
> LSL #49(10/22): arrived CHI 1 hour and 16 minutes late.
> 
> CL #30(10/22): arrived WAS 3 hours and 7 minutes late [dep PGH 1 hour and 43 minutes late, so it lost time on CSX.]
> 
> LSL #48(10/22): arrived NYP 3 hours and 47 minutes late [dep CLE 3 hours and 22 minutes late]


I like your daily check-ins, afigg. We won't call it an obsession but it's easy to get hooked on checking the stats!


----------



## City of Miami

All amenities undiminished on 29(24). Very good steak, larger salad, parfait dessert. Excellent lsa and sca. 1 hour late onto tol so I missed breakfast, but no complaints at all!


----------



## Big Iron

Anyone know why the CL left Chicago with one locomotive, no baggage car and 6 superliners? Saw it go by the Chesterton, IN webcam at 8:35 EDT.


----------



## Barciur

Amtrak reduced the consist to create an extra one to stick in Chicago.


----------



## PerplexedReader

City of Miami said:


> 29 today is trans dorm 2 sleep cafe 2 oaches


Folks, some ordinary people read this blog to try to learn more about Amtrak.

Is there any chance of having the posts written in the English language so we can understand what is being said?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PerplexedReader said:


> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29 today is trans dorm 2 sleep cafe 2 oaches
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, some ordinary people read this blog to try to learn more about Amtrak.
> 
> Is there any chance of having the posts written in the English language so we can understand what is being said?
Click to expand...

1) This site is not a blog, but a forum.

2) #29 (Capital Limited)'s consist was 1 trans-dorm, 2 sleeper cars, 1 cafe/diner and 2 coaches


----------



## George K

jis said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> 29 today is ... 2 oaches
> 
> 
> 
> The CL is really downsizing - they have even cut the "c" out to save money! :giggle:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The "c" was needed elsewhere to add it to Amtrak to make it Amtra*c*k
Click to expand...

OK. That made me spit (cheap) Scotch on my keyboard. You guys owe me.


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the Friday, October 24 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time. While all were late, one of the better days in recent weeks.

CL #29(10/24): arrived CHI 59 minutes late
LSL #49(10/24): arrived CHI 1 hour and 56 minutes late [departed CLE 48 minutes late]

CL #30(10/24): arrived WAS 1 hour and 34 minutes late [dep PGH 1 hour and 43 minutes late]
LSL #48(10/24): arrived NYP 1 hour and 44 minutes late [dep CLE 2 hours and 7 minutes late]


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the Saturday, October 25 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time. Good day for the eastbound trains. Not so for the westbound CL and LSL, which were doing fine until they got west of Toledo and then the NS meltdown gauntlet from there.

CL #29(10/25): arrived CHI 2 hours and 52 minutes late at 11:37 AM [departed TOL 17 minutes late]

LSL #49(10/25): arrived CHI 2 hours and 2 minutes late at 11:47 AM [dep TOL 15 minutes late]

CL #30(10/25): arrived WAS 40 minutes late.

LSL #48(10/25): *arrived NYP 9 minutes early!*


----------



## jis

So looks like NS is still having a bit more problem than CSX of late, but nothing like the unmitigated disaster that they were before they were collectively shamed by AAR and somewhat threatened by STB.


----------



## chicagorr

I have heard NS may have shut off GE's auto router or movement planner dispatching system last week. Hence the general improvement in freight and passenger movement lately. But they haven't completely given up on it either as i understand it so that may create future problems in my opinion.


----------



## jis

chicagorr said:


> I have heard NS may have shut off GE's auto router or movement planner dispatching system last week. Hence the general improvement in freight and passenger movement lately. But they haven't completely given up on it either as i understand it so that may create future problems in my opinion.


All rational indications are that they need to scrap it forthwith and fire the guy who decided to acquire it in the first place for incompetence. Just IMHO of course.


----------



## John Bobinyec

jis said:


> chicagorr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard NS may have shut off GE's auto router or movement planner dispatching system last week. Hence the general improvement in freight and passenger movement lately. But they haven't completely given up on it either as i understand it so that may create future problems in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> All rational indications are that they need to scrap it forthwith and fire the guy who decided to acquire it in the first place for incompetence. Just IMHO of course.
Click to expand...

I have a saying about software: You never find all of the bugs.

The dispatcher should ALWAYS have the right to override any automated dispatching system. If we don't, we end up with HAL or COLLOSUS (for you movie buffs).

I think the person who should be fired is the person who ordered the dispatchers to let the auto router to do whatever it wanted without intervention.

jb


----------



## Bob Dylan

Let's hope that whatever Moron was responsible for the HAL Dispatching System isn't ever hired by Amtrak!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

There's a new _*Norfolk Southern*_ commercial where 2 Engineers are discussing what they did on the line that day. Of course they forget to mention _*Tied Up Amtrak For 6 Hours!*_


----------



## George K

OlympianHiawatha said:


> There's a new _*Norfolk Southern*_ commercial where 2 Engineers are discussing what they did on the line that day. Of course they forget to mention _*Tied Up Amtrak For 6 Hours!*_


----------



## neroden

John Bobinyec said:


> I have a saying about software: You never find all of the bugs.
> 
> The dispatcher should ALWAYS have the right to override any automated dispatching system. If we don't, we end up with HAL or COLLOSUS (for you movie buffs).
> 
> I think the person who should be fired is the person who ordered the dispatchers to let the auto router to do whatever it wanted without intervention.


As a programmer, I agree with John 100%.


----------



## NW cannonball

neroden said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a saying about software: You never find all of the bugs.
> 
> The dispatcher should ALWAYS have the right to override any automated dispatching system. If we don't, we end up with HAL or COLLOSUS (for you movie buffs).
> 
> I think the person who should be fired is the person who ordered the dispatchers to let the auto router to do whatever it wanted without intervention.
> 
> 
> 
> As a programmer, I agree with John 100%.
Click to expand...

Is there a GE product that should be reported at the old-time "RISKS to users of software" at catless?


----------



## OBS

FWIW, train 30 arrived in Wash DC yesterday with both a diner and lounge...


----------



## benale

I booked a round trip for points and to renew select from Martinsburg to Rockville yesterday. 30 was "only" 2 hours and twenty five minutes late, so I did make the trip. I didn't expect a sightseer car, and it was a welcome surprise. Weather was beautiful yesterday, so I didn't mind the wait at the Rockville station. 29 on the way back had the combined diner lounge. It was very crowded so I sat in my seat for the little more than an hour ride back to Martinsburg.

Boarding in Rockville instead of Union Station is certainly easier. No lines to stand in and no seat assignments.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

I have been hearing that it is hit or miss on the 29 or the 30 having a SSL. Looks like the times are working their way down to manageable lateness. Any word on types of cars the 29 and 30 were rolling today?

HF


----------



## Ryan

29(27) did not have one.


----------



## pennyk

30 that left Chicago on 10/27 and arrived in WAS today did not have one. It arrived almost 3 hours late.


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the Monday, October 27 departure CL and LSLs; all departed on time. Not a good run for any of the trains with all being 2 to 3 hours late. But the newly appointed Amtrak Blue Ribbon Panel for the Chicago Gateway Initiative is now on the case! Or will be if they publish their report in May (Should have a separate thread on the announcement).

CL #29(10/27): arrived CHI 3 hours and 3 minutes late [departed CLE 23 minutes late]
LSL #49(10/27): arrived CHI 3 hours and 1 minute late [dep TOL 1 hour and 19 minutes late]

CL #30(10/27): arrived WAS 2 hours and 50 minutes late [dep TOL 2 hours and 20 minutes late]

LSL #48(10/27): arrived NYP 2 hours and 13 minutes late [dep TOL 1 hours and 2 minutes late, dep SDY 2 hours and 50 minutes late]


----------



## Barciur

Today's trains at PGH:

Pennsy #42

* PGH * * 1 730A * 730A Departed: on time
CL #30

* PGH 2 505A 2 520A 738A 753A Departed: 2 hours and 33 minutes late.
WHY would you do that? Or maybe there weren't any connecting passengers? But surely if there were any connecting passengers, holding the Pennsy for the additional 15 minutes wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Of course my rant is indeed moot if nobody was connecting at Pittsburgh, but I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of through traffic.


----------



## Ryan

Or they put the connecting pax on a bus to catch up to the Pennsy.

Or rerouted them through WAS if they were going to a destination where that made sense.


----------



## Barciur

Right, though it depends what you mean by making sense. Philly and New York? Or as far west as Harrisburg? The thing is that by current estimates you arrive in WAS at 3PM (an optimistic estimate probably). So your first chance to go north is at 4:02pm, which gets you to Philly at 5:52. That's 3 hours later than the Pennsy. Might not be as bad, but holding the Pennsylvanian just for the 15 minutes would mitigate any of that.

It gets more hairy with Harrisburg, as if you're going to WAS and then to HAR, as you're looking at the 8:35pm arrival as opposed to 12:55pm with the Pennsy. I'm really curious about their thinking and how do they decide if htey hold it or not.


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> Today's trains at PGH:
> 
> ...
> 
> WHY would you do that? Or maybe there weren't any connecting passengers? But surely if there were any connecting passengers, holding the Pennsy for the additional 15 minutes wouldn't be that big of a deal.
> 
> Of course my rant is indeed moot if nobody was connecting at Pittsburgh, but I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of through traffic.


There was a claim made on trainorders.com, now that the Pennsylvanian is a state supported train, that PennDOT is not allowing Amtrak to hold the train for departure from PGH for any significant length of time to make connections from the CL. I can not verify that claim. It is possible that Amtrak has taken to busing passengers at Alliance to PGH when they are not sure if #30 will get to PGH by 7:30 AM. It is also possible that because of the extreme delays for the CL that there are a lot fewer people booking the connection because they have given up on it.


----------



## jis

In general I think it is a bad idea to arbitrarily hold corridor trains for connection from unreliable LD trains. That makes the corridor train unreliable too, making it less desirable to use them for those that depend on them to commute to work etc. Overall it might be cheaper to handle the missed connections by taxis, vans and buses than to lose ridership on the corridor trains.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

This is indeed an excellent topic. I am scheduled for the CL to the Pennsy coming up soon. THat is my concern is making the connection. I called AMTRAK and the gent who I spoke with said one of three things will happen:

1. They will bus you to the next station if there is time to catch the train.

2. They will bus you to either DC or Philly depending....

3. They will keep you on the CL and re route you thru DC to destination.

BUT he did say that the times were improving and that as the fall goes on, the traffic that is causing all the delays may lighten up???

Who knows. Actively watching the timetables being posted here to see if I need to do some thinking prior to travel.

HF


----------



## Ryan

I would be cautiously optimistic. What is your final destination?


----------



## Barciur

I'm connecting from the CL to Pennsy in a few days and ideally I'd take number 3 - I'm not time sensitive, I can arrive 6 hours later and will be fine. Would rather do that than the dreaded bus anyway. Why would they bus me to DC anyway?


----------



## HockeyFan1972

The city of brotherly love! In fact going to see my brother who lives in Allentown. So Pennsy gets in mid afternoon to Philly. I looked at taking the CL to Wash DC and then to Philly, and it got in at about dinner time. Further, price increase was a lot more compared to taking the Pennsy.

BUT: weird as it may seem, the way home is Philly to DC to CHI via the CL....and was cheeper then the trip going out! Odd to me, but whatever.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Barciur,

Would be interested in a connection report from you when you travel. Save travels!


----------



## Barciur

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Barciur,
> 
> Would be interested in a connection report from you when you travel. Save travels!


THanks. Will definitely post one


----------



## montana mike

Currently on #49 about 30 miles east of Elk Heart, IN. We were running about 2 hours behind schedule due to the track work issues in NYS. Now we are stopped in the Indiana "dead zone" and the conductor just announced we need to wait for a series of east bound freights to go by before we can resume our journey. My guess is based on the last week's track record of delays in this area that we will pull into CHI well over 3 hours late once again and maybe even later, as he said there is very heavy "congestion" up ahead. Arrgh. I hope I make my connection to today's #7


----------



## acelafan

montana mike said:


> Currently on #49 about 30 miles east of Elk Heart, IN. We were running about 2 hours behind schedule due to the track work issues in NYS. Now we are stopped in the Indiana "dead zone" and the conductor just announced we need to wait for a series of east bound freights to go by before we can resume our journey. My guess is based on the last week's track record of delays in this area that we will pull into CHI well over 3 hours late once again and maybe even later, as he said there is very heavy "congestion" up ahead. Arrgh. I hope I make my connection to today's #7


Odds are in your favor for making the connection, I think. The last time #49 missed #7 in CHI was on October 13th.







Link to data


----------



## montana mike

I hope so. We haven't moved in over 30 minutes and the conductor once again, in a rather frustrated voice, mentioned that we must continue sit here as more freights pass us by going east bound. Looks like the CL was able to sneak into CHI only an hour late today though.

It is looking like it will be very close, as the crew said we should expect to lose another hour after leaving SOB. I might be running from one train to the other!!! When I asked if we would get into CHI before 2:15 the conductor just rolled his eyes and said--maybe.........not a good sign.

After almost an hour and waiting for three freights we are crawling slowly forward...


----------



## montana mike

Now stopped again, just east of SOB, and again waiting for more freight traffic to pass us by. No additional time given, but likely another 30-45 minutes, since they need to get clearance to go around freights. My window of opportunity is shrinking here.

I am actually somewhat surprised at the amount of single track in this area, which is one of the reasons why the very slow pace--We crawled along at perhaps 20-25 mph for about 10 minutes after Elkhart. I have not seen any evidence of track work along the stretch between TOL and SOB so far other than one NS truck where a guy was tinkering with a light.


----------



## afigg

montana mike said:


> Now stopped again, just east of SOB, and again waiting for more freight traffic to pass by. No additional time given, but likely another 30-45 minutes. My window of opportunity is shrinking here.


Good luck. The pattern in recent days appears to be random on which east or westbound CL/LSL gets through CHI-EKH ok and which do not.

Destination results for the Wednesday, October 29 departure CL and LSLs. All departed on-time unless otherwise noted. Will the delays get better after October 31 if trackwork has wrapped up? Or will the mostly 2-3 hour delays continue through November? Stay tuned.

CL #29(10/29): arrived CHI 1 hour late [departed CLE 40 minutes late]

LSL #49(10/29): dep NYP 1 hour and 17 minutes late, arrived CHI 3 hours and 50 minute late [dep CLE 1 hour and 40 minutes late, dep SOB 4 hours and 7 minutes late, so it made up time between SOB and CHI]

CL #30(10/29): arrived WAS 3 hours and 10 minutes late [dep PGH 2 hours and 26 minutes late]

LSL #48(10/29): arrived NYP 2 hours and 23 minutes late [dep SOB 2 hours and 46 minutes late, so the delays were almost all between CHI and SOB]


----------



## montana mike

I hope I don't see another 2 hours worth of delays AFTER SOB, I won't make it at that rate. We finally are moving again--at 15 mph. A guy in a bicycle just went by us on a side road!!! The conductor says still much "congestion" up ahead, so not looking good.

:-((

Note: apparently NS decided to let us stay behind an extremely slow freight instead of let us go around as we had requested--thus the very slow pace!


----------



## tommylicious

Hang in there Mike


----------



## jis

So the incompetence at NS continues. Sigh....


----------



## greatcats

Yippee! Watching tom out on the lava flow outside of Flagstaff, I see you made Chicago. Have a nice trip back to Whitefish!


----------



## afigg

montana mike said:


> I hope I don't see another 2 hours worth of delays AFTER SOB, I won't make it at that rate. We finally are moving again--at 15 mph. A guy in a bicycle just went by us on a side road!!! The conductor says still much "congestion" up ahead, so not looking good.
> 
> :-((
> 
> Note: apparently NS decided to let us stay behind an extremely slow freight instead of let us go around as we had requested--thus the very slow pace!


Must have gotten around the slow freight train. He made it to CHI in time to take a leisurely stroll around Union Station before going to the waiting room for EB #7. #49(10/30) arrived at CHI at 1:09 PM, a mere 3 hours and 24 minutes late. Only lost 3 minutes between SOB to CHI, which is much better than #48(10/30) which took almost an additional 3 hours last night from CHI (dep 21 minutes late) to SOB (dep 3 hours and 5 minutes late).

At least, all the western LD trains and the CONO look to be arriving in CHI not too late today.


----------



## afigg

Last October runs. Does it get better in November? Destination results for the Thursday, October 30 departure CL and LSLs.. All departed on-time unless otherwise noted.

CL #29(10/30): arrived CHI 1 hour and 13 minutes late [dep TOL on-time]
LSL #49(10/30): arrived CHI 3 hours and 24 minutes late [dep ALB 5 minutes late, BUF 2 hours and 10 minutes late]

CL #30(10/30): dep CHI 34 minutes late, arrived WAS 1 hour and 57 minutes late [dep TOL 2 hours and 31 minutes late]
LSL #48(10/30): dep CHI 21 minutes late, arrived NYP 2 hours and 48 minutes late [dep SOB 3 hours and 5 minutes late]

While Montana Mike was worried about #49 reaching CHI in time for EB #7, no problem. #7(10/31) departed CHI 4 hours and 10 minutes late at 6:25 PM. Oh well.


----------



## northnorthwest

I'm considering a trip on 30 out of PGH on Jan. 1. Anybody know if they've been serving breakfast at the regular times or even later times due to the delays? If I get the sleeper with points I will want breakfast. Thanks.


----------



## montana mike

afigg said:


> Last October runs. Does it get better in November? Destination results for the Thursday, October 30 departure CL and LSLs.. All departed on-time unless otherwise noted.
> 
> CL #29(10/30): arrived CHI 1 hour and 13 minutes late [dep TOL on-time]
> 
> LSL #49(10/30): arrived CHI 3 hours and 24 minutes late [dep ALB 5 minutes late, BUF 2 hours and 10 minutes late]
> 
> CL #30(10/30): dep CHI 34 minutes late, arrived WAS 1 hour and 57 minutes late [dep TOL 2 hours and 31 minutes late]
> 
> LSL #48(10/30): dep CHI 21 minutes late, arrived NYP 2 hours and 48 minutes late [dep SOB 3 hours and 5 minutes late]
> 
> While Montana Mike was worried about #49 reaching CHI in time for EB #7, no problem. #7(10/31) departed CHI 4 hours and 10 minutes late at 6:25 PM. Oh well.


Yup--A four hour delay while they hooked up three private cars and replaced an engine-now in MN, just 6 hours behind, with NO toilets operating in the forward sleepers--what an adventure!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

The time change will make up one hour while you're asleep Mike! Does the Diner have the Emergency Snack Packs, Water and the Amstew ready?


----------



## Barciur

Today on the 29 the Diner got closed at 8:30 eastern just after SOB. Wish I knew that this wiuld happen as I unfortunately missed breakfast.

Still we were delayed a bit further before CHI to a total of 55 mins so not bad.


----------



## afigg

Because why not? November 2 was the best day for on-time or close to on-time arrivals for the CL and LSL as a group in a while, although the OTP was obviously helped by gaining an extra hour at 2 AM and being on the weekend. Have to wait and see what happens during the week. All departed on-time unless otherwise noted.

CL #29(11/01): arrived CHI 32 minutes late
LSL #49(11/01): arrived CHI 1 hours and 10 minutes late [departed BYN on-time, SOB 37 minutes late]

CL #30(11/01): dep CHI 22 minutes late, arrived WAS 10 minutes late
LSL #48(11/01): arrived NYP 7 minutes early [never got > 20 minutes late on the trip]


----------



## afigg

Destination results for the Monday, November 3 departure CL and LSLs. All departed on-time. The OTP is not yet quite back to normal with some runs encountering circa one hour delays between CHI and CLE, but this is much better than the 2-3 hour late arrivals. At this point, I am not planning to post any more of these updates, unless there is a change either to an all on-time day or the return of the NS meltdown.

CL #29(11/03): arrived CHI 1 hour and 3 minutes late [departed TOL 15 minutes late]

LSL #49(11/03): arrived CHI 1 hour and 41 minutes late [departed CLE 45 minutes late]

CL #30(11/03): *arrived WAS 20 minutes early!* First early arrival into WAS since June 23.
LSL #48(11/03): arrived NYP 1 hour and 31 minutes late. [dep TOL 4 minutes late, CLE 1 hour and 6 minutes late, SYR 2 hours and 6 minutes late so CSX added to the delays].


----------



## jis

So the delay added by CSX in the eastbound direction was actually less than what they contributed in the westbound direction, just by a smidgen!


----------



## SteveSFL

I have read conflicting information about the temporary change in the consist of the Cap Limited (30) that was done to create another trainset. Amtrak's web site indicates that through 11/18/14, there will be no full diner or sightseer lounge on 30. I found another post elsewhere which indicated that Amtrak backtracked on the change and replaced the SSL. I'll be on 30 on 11/16.


----------



## Mike Carlisle

Why has the Capitol Limited its consist?


----------



## chakk

Amtrak stated in a post on their website that this was done to produce an extra set (or two?) of equipment so that the CL could leave Chicago on time during the many weeks of very long delays encountered on the Norfolk Southern tracks in Indiana and Ohio. Perhaps also it is allowing Amtrak to do more renovations on their Superliner Lounges?


----------



## William W.

Looks like a baggage car, diner-lounge, two coaches, and a sleeper.


----------



## afigg

SteveSTX said:


> I have read conflicting information about the temporary change in the consist of the Cap Limited (30) that was done to create another trainset. Amtrak's web site indicates that through 11/18/14, there will be no full diner or sightseer lounge on 30. I found another post elsewhere which indicated that Amtrak backtracked on the change and replaced the SSL. I'll be on 30 on 11/16.


The reports have some CLs with a diner and sightseer lounge car and others with just the cross country cafe car. With 4 consists, they may be running 1 or 2 with the diner/SSL configuration and the rest without. So far in November has #29 has arrived at Chicago more than 3 hours late twice with the latest being 3 hours and 38 minutes allowing >6 hours to turn the equipment around. It is possible that Amtrak will shift back to 3 consists and the full diner & SSL setup before November 18.


----------



## mike carlisle

Why is the consist of 29 and 30 being smaller than before?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

mike carlisle said:


> Why is the consist of 29 and 30 being smaller than before?


So Amtrak can build an extra set to cover all the recent NS delays and Bustitutions. I understand the consist is suppose to return to normal by 16 NOV if not sooner.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

AMTRAK, when I went on a rant about removing the SSL, sent me a message both on here (Read back) and on my Twitter Acct stating that by the 20th of November, the SSL will be reinstated for the line. Now I called BS on this and questioned them on if they were going to make this temporary adjustment into a permanent one due to cost savings of only having one engine.

Their answer:

Crickets.......

So I would HOPE AMTRAK reinstates the SSL. If one was on the CL from CHI to D.C. with only a overcrowded diner car that is substituting for a lounge car (half of it) then it would be a bummer.

HF


----------



## afigg

I have not posted one of these in 10 days as CL and LSL OTP has been mostly poor, but making the connections. Today was a bad day for the LSLs and the westbound CL, although the trains arrived in time for connections. The NS delays between CHI and Waterloo continue, especially for the westbound trains Anyway, destination results for the Thursday, November 13 departure CL and LSLs. All departed on-time or close to it except for #48 which may have been held at CHI for really late western trains.

CL #29(11/13): arrived CHI 3 hours and 43 minutes late [departed TOL 42 minutes late]
LSL #49(11/13): arrived CHI 2 hours and 52 minutes late [dep WTI 1 hour and 1 minute late]

CL #30(11/13): arrived WAS 1 hour and 27 minutes late. [dep PGH 44 minutes late}
LSL #48(11/13): arrived NYP 3 hours and 28 minutes late. [dep CHI 1 hour and 5 minutes late, dep WTI 3 hours and 48 minutes late]


----------



## SteveSFL

I just departed CHI on 30(16). No SSL--just CCC.


----------



## Trollopian

What happened? After a few weeks in which it looked like Amtrak had finally conquered the Capitol Limited Curse, I see that #29 pulled out of Rockville today over 3 hours late. In other words, the 25-minute sprint from Washington Union Station to Rockville took 3 and a half hours. I feel pity for those on board, especially if there is no SSL.

(I take this train between Pittsburgh and DC at least once a month, and have a particularly fine aerie from my 11th-floor window at the iconic Pennsylvanian, the former western headquarters of the Pennsylvania Railroad that's now apartments; see http://www.thepennsylvanian.com/. Most nights I can hear that telltale rumble as #29 pulls out at 11:59 or very soon thereafter. Not tonight, obviously. For what it's worth, I always dash to the window to observe the consist, which seems generally to consist of a locomotive and six cars; could that be baggage, sleeper, cafe, and three coaches?)


----------



## Alexandria Nick

I'm certain this has been covered, but you know how unwieldy looking for something in a very long thread can be: I've got a CL trip coming up in two weeks. If there's a considerable delay, is it likely that I have a bus from Pittsburgh or what? I've never had to deal with a train running later than an hour into Pittsburgh (DC bound) before, so this is a possible new experience all around.


----------



## afigg

Trollopian said:


> What happened? After a few weeks in which it looked like Amtrak had finally conquered the Capitol Limited Curse, I see that #29 pulled out of Rockville today over 3 hours late. In other words, the 25-minute sprint from Washington Union Station to Rockville took 3 and a half hours. I feel pity for those on board, especially if there is no SSL.


According to trainorders, #29(11/16) had a locomotive failure between WAS and Rockville, so Amtrak had to send a replacement. Amtrak is having too many P-42s breakdown en route, but that is another thread.

This was the best day for the westbound CL and LSL into CHI in quite some time with #49 arriving early! Figured I might as well post the OTP results. LSL #48 (11/15) was held for a very late SWC and CZ which in turn were delayed by a freight train breakdown.

CL #29(11/15): arrived CHI 22 minutes late.

LSL #49(11/15): *arrived CHI 3 minutes early!* [dep NYP 12 minutes late, BUF 1 hour and 3 minutes late]

CL #30(11/15]: arrived WAS 27 minutes late.

LSL #48(11/13): arrived NYP 2 hour and 28 minutes late. [dep CHI 1 hour and 29 minutes late, dep ERI 3 hours and 15 minutes late]


----------



## afigg

Alexandria Nick said:


> I'm certain this has been covered, but you know how unwieldy looking for something in a very long thread can be: I've got a CL trip coming up in two weeks. If there's a considerable delay, is it likely that I have a bus from Pittsburgh or what? I've never had to deal with a train running later than an hour into Pittsburgh (DC bound) before, so this is a possible new experience all around.


The #30 CL has made the connection at Pittsburgh to the Pennsylvanian every day and has been over 2 hours late into WAS only once so far in November. The worse of the NS meltdown appears to be over. The odds of getting bused from Pittsburgh to DC are small.


----------



## Alexandria Nick

afigg said:


> Alexandria Nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certain this has been covered, but you know how unwieldy looking for something in a very long thread can be: I've got a CL trip coming up in two weeks. If there's a considerable delay, is it likely that I have a bus from Pittsburgh or what? I've never had to deal with a train running later than an hour into Pittsburgh (DC bound) before, so this is a possible new experience all around.
> 
> 
> 
> The #30 CL has made the connection at Pittsburgh to the Pennsylvanian every day and has been over 2 hours late into WAS only once so far in November. The worse of the NS meltdown appears to be over. The odds of getting bused from Pittsburgh to DC are small.
Click to expand...

Well that's good. I'm already grumpy enough on both ends of that trip (the part where I get virtually no sleep so I can leave the house at 4:00 and then dealing with DC Metro weekend "service" or a $45 cab ride), so the less complications the better.


----------



## Trollopian

afigg said:


> Trollopian said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened? After a few weeks in which it looked like Amtrak had finally conquered the Capitol Limited Curse, I see that #29 pulled out of Rockville today over 3 hours late. In other words, the 25-minute sprint from Washington Union Station to Rockville took 3 and a half hours. I feel pity for those on board, especially if there is no SSL.
> 
> 
> 
> According to trainorders, #29(11/16) had a locomotive failure between WAS and Rockville, so Amtrak had to send a replacement. Amtrak is having too many P-42s breakdown en route, but that is another thread.
> 
> This was the best day for the westbound CL and LSL into CHI in quite some time with #49 arriving early! Figured I might as well post the OTP results. LSL #48 (11/15) was held for a very late SWC and CZ which in turn were delayed by a freight train breakdown.
> 
> CL #29(11/15): arrived CHI 22 minutes late.
> 
> LSL #49(11/15): *arrived CHI 3 minutes early!* [dep NYP 12 minutes late, BUF 1 hour and 3 minutes late]
> 
> CL #30(11/15]: arrived WAS 27 minutes late.
> 
> LSL #48(11/13): arrived NYP 2 hour and 28 minutes late. [dep CHI 1 hour and 29 minutes late, dep ERI 3 hours and 15 minutes late]
Click to expand...

Thanks, Afigg. The Capitol Limited just slid out of Pittsburgh, nearly 3 hours late. (No, I wasn't waiting up for it - unlike those poor souls who had to catch it to Cleveland or Chicago - but I had my ears pricked for its characteristic low rumble, and went to the window to verify.)


----------



## afigg

afigg said:


> Trollopian said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened? After a few weeks in which it looked like Amtrak had finally conquered the Capitol Limited Curse, I see that #29 pulled out of Rockville today over 3 hours late. In other words, the 25-minute sprint from Washington Union Station to Rockville took 3 and a half hours. I feel pity for those on board, especially if there is no SSL.
> 
> 
> 
> According to trainorders, #29(11/16) had a locomotive failure between WAS and Rockville, so Amtrak had to send a replacement. Amtrak is having too many P-42s breakdown en route, but that is another thread.
Click to expand...

Followup correction from additional posts at trainorders. I should know by now not to pass on information based on posts by Gene Poon without a caveat, especially when he places the blame on Amtrak maintenance. The CL #29(11/16) locomotive struck a deer which did some damage to the underside that caused the 3 hour delay. #29 (11/16) arrived at CHI 3 hours and 43 minutes late, so it did not encounter much additional delay on the trip.

Don't know if the diner or CCC added tenderized venison to the menu.


----------



## KVG_DC

ew.


----------



## Railroad Bill

And what happened to today's 30/17. Half hour late into TOL then 5 hours late to Sandusky and still running 5 hours late into Martinsburg, WV. Accident? Breakdown? or high winds on the Sandusky Bay bridge stopped traffic?


----------



## SteveSFL

Looks like 29 and 48 also had significant delays between SKY and TOL.


----------



## jis

Railroad Bill said:


> And what happened to today's 30/17. Half hour late into TOL then 5 hours late to Sandusky and still running 5 hours late into Martinsburg, WV. Accident? Breakdown? or high winds on the Sandusky Bay bridge stopped traffic?


Snow, high wind, signal failures, timed out crew on freight trains ahead.... you name it... The usual culprits during a big storm event.


----------



## SteveSFL

As ya'll may know I recently missed my connection from SWC to CL in Chicago. Since I had a destination beyond WAS (TPA), I was given a hotel and put on the next day's CL. People who were going just to WAS were forced to take that nights LSL and then a regional train to DC.

Seems like if one was taking a trip from the west coast to WAS it would be prudent to book to ALX in the event of a misconnect. On a sample date I checked, it was actually a dollar cheaper to ALX and it prevents the LSL reroute.


----------



## Trollopian

This doesn't add anything that listmembers don't already know....

But today's Pittsburgh _Post-Gazette_ has an article about the CL's abysmal OTP and about Amtrak's complaint to the STB. (Pittsburgh is roughly the halfway point of the CL, between Washington and Chicago; I take it to DC at least monthly.) See http://www.post-gaze...es/201411190012.

Of course, the lawsuit precipitated the _Post-Gazette_ article....it would've been nice to see more media coverage during the months and months of abominable delays. In fact, except for yesterday's weather-related shambles, the CL's performance has perked up a bit recently, though rarely enough to qualify as "on-time" (less than 30 minutes late at terminus) by Amtrak's standard.

(This is cross-posted on the "lawsuit" thread.)


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Alright CL watchers! IT has hit the dates that AMTRAK said they would put the SSL back in the CL lineup. Any Verification? Sightings?

With a trip coming next week for me, I want the SSL. Sorry just being honest.

HF


----------



## Pete-M3

I saw the CL last night on the Chesterton IN webcam. It had 2 P42s, a baggage car, transition sleeper, the SSL and a total of 9 or 10 cars. It was probably well-patronized with additional passengers, taking the long way around to New York points due to the weather-related Lake Shore cancellation.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Thanks! I was wondering if they were going to keep their word.

Looks like they have!

HF


----------



## Pete-M3

I checked out the CL again tonight on the Chesterton webcam. Its consist was similar to last night's and this time definitely 10 cars. Hopefully they used a full diner, but I can't tell from the outside (is that possible?). Also, unlike last night, as of right now (about 9:15 P.M. ET), only about 10 minutes late and rolling at 80 mph (per Amtrak's Track-a-Train).


----------



## neroden

This is a situation where the Pennsy-Cap through cars would have come in handy. Last I checked, that plan had NS approval and was waiting for new Viewliner sleepers... the delay in the Viewliner sleepers has been bad for Amtrak all around.


----------



## afigg

While the LSL has been cancelled the past few days and CL #30(11/20) arrived at WAS 1 hour and 38 minutes late, #29 had a good run.

CL #29(11/20):* arrived CHI 23 minutes early!* (who has the confetti?)


----------



## William W.

neroden said:


> This is a situation where the Pennsy-Cap through cars would have come in handy. Last I checked, that plan had NS approval and was waiting for new Viewliner sleepers... the delay in the Viewliner sleepers has been bad for Amtrak all around.


A permanent second sleeper on the Cardinal, and daily service would also help in situations such as this (although it would only really help CHI-NYP passengers).


----------



## neroden

Frankly, there's so much "low hanging fruit" for improvement in the Chicago-East Coast market that it frustrates me that it hasn't been done.


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Where again can you find the times/delays for the past month? I knew a website but im drawing a blank right now.


----------



## George K

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Where again can you find the times/delays for the past month? I knew a website but im drawing a blank right now.


http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com


----------



## neroden

http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Thanks. Anyone know the reason for the CL #30 delay after Elkhart, IN? Looks like it got to Pittsburg 2.5 hours late?

My faith in making my connection to the Pennsy on the morning of the 26th is not that good....may want to change tix to go thru WAS to Philadelphia.

HF


----------



## afigg

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Thanks. Anyone know the reason for the CL #30 delay after Elkhart, IN? Looks like it got to Pittsburg 2.5 hours late?
> 
> My faith in making my connection to the Pennsy on the morning of the 26th is not that good....may want to change tix to go thru WAS to Philadelphia.
> 
> HF


CL #30(11/23) shows a service disruption on Status Maps for the 2 and a half hour delay between Elkhart and Waterloo, IN. So the delay had to have been more than freight congestion. However, #30(23) arrived at PGH at 7:25 AM and #42 (23) departed PGH at 7:37 AM, so it made the connection.

According to Status Maps Archive, #30 has made the connection to #42 every day so far in November except for November 18 when the lake effect snowstorm walloped the region along Lake Erie (#30(11/17) lost 5 hours between Toledo and Sandusky). So your odds of making the connection at PGH are pretty good, but of course, can't guarantee it


----------



## HockeyFan1972

Thanks for the info. Called Amtrak and was told that it SHOULD make the connection. They have been holding the Pennsy these days if it is a close connection. Lady who was absolutely great to talk to, was also very forthcoming about the delays. Would not go into what the "Service Disruption" was but seemed confident that freight lines are supposed to begin to lighten traffic for the turkey day weekend?

Anyway, looking forward to this trip been way to long since I have been on the good ol AMTRAK. Going from Milwaukee to Philadelphia starting tomorrow. Should be an adventure with the snowstorm we are getting today and the one due to the east coast WED-THURS.

Side question: No checked baggage on the Hiawatha or the Pennsy. Bringing two small bags with me (Backpack and roller carry on Airline overhead compartment size). Any issues with placement of these bags on NON Checked Baggage trains?

HF


----------



## AmtrakBlue

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Thanks for the info. Called Amtrak and was told that it SHOULD make the connection. They have been holding the Pennsy these days if it is a close connection. Lady who was absolutely great to talk to, was also very forthcoming about the delays. Would not go into what the "Service Disruption" was but seemed confident that freight lines are supposed to begin to lighten traffic for the turkey day weekend?
> 
> Anyway, looking forward to this trip been way to long since I have been on the good ol AMTRAK. Going from Milwaukee to Philadelphia starting tomorrow. Should be an adventure with the snowstorm we are getting today and the one due to the east coast WED-THURS.
> 
> Side question: No checked baggage on the Hiawatha or the Pennsy. Bringing two small bags with me (Backpack and roller carry on Airline overhead compartment size). Any issues with placement of these bags on NON Checked Baggage trains?
> 
> HF


Bags should be fine. There should be overheads on both trains and/or a spot at one end of the car.


----------



## acelafan

HockeyFan1972 said:


> Where again can you find the times/delays for the past month? I knew a website but im drawing a blank right now.


afigg mentioned the data (thanks!) but here is a screenshot for you which you can scan for times and missed connections.







The direct link for the image above is http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?date_start=10%2F23%2F2014&date_end=11%2F24%2F2014&a_train_num=30&c_train_num=42&station=pgh&sort_dir=DESC

If you google "Amtrak Status Maps Archive Database" you can always find the website or go to http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/


----------



## afigg

afigg said:


> CL #30(11/23) shows a service disruption on Status Maps for the 2 and a half hour delay between Elkhart and Waterloo, IN. So the delay had to have been more than freight congestion. However, #30(23) arrived at PGH at 7:25 AM and #42 (23) departed PGH at 7:37 AM, so it made the connection.


Amtrak posted a November 24 & 25 service alert for #29 and #30, so the service disruption last night may have been track work. Quote:



> *Capitol Limited Trains 29 and 30: Possible Delays*
> 
> Effective November 24 and 25, 2014
> 
> Due to track work being performed by Norfolk Southern Railway, the Capitol Limited may encounter delays of one to two hours between Waterloo, IN, and South Bend, IN on the dates shown below:
> 
> Train 30 may encounter delays as the train travels between South Bend, IN, and Waterloo, IN, on Monday, November 24, 2014.
> 
> Train 29 may encounter delays as the train travels between Waterloo and South Bend on Tuesday, November 25, 2014.


----------



## Slasharoo

there is checked baggage on the Hiawatha in Milwaukee. But as Amtrak Blue mentioned, there is plenty of onboard storage, too.


----------



## afigg

Have not posted one lately, but it is the big travel day. The CL and LSL did ok, better than #8, #6, or #22 in getting to Chicago. #29 and #49 also did much better on NS territory today (Wednesday 11/26) than on Tuesday (11/24 departures) when the westbound trains each lost >=2 hours between TOL and CHI.

CL #29(11/25): arrived CHI 10 minutes early.

LSL #49(11/25): arrived CHI 1 hour and 37 minutes late but delays were on ALB-SDY and CSX [dep ALB 19 minutes late, SDY 44 minutes late, BUF 1 hour and 54 minutes late so it made up time between BUF and CHI]

CL #30(11/25): arrived WAS 44 minutes late. [arrived PGH 35 minutes late, dep RKV 1 hour and 22 minutes late]
LSL #48(11/25): arrived NYP on-time at 6:23 PM. [dep BYN 51 minutes late, dep CLE 1 minutes late].


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## afigg

Thread has gone quiet in recent weeks. The question is the NS meltdown fully over or is this just an early winter lull? I had not checked in a few days but saw that all four CLs and LSLs had a good run today. Perhaps the best combined OTP in a while.

CL #29(12/04): arrived CHI 40 minutes late. [departed CLE 25 minutes late]

LSL #49(12/04): arrived CHI 2 minutes late [dep ALB on-time, Erie 44 minutes late.]

CL #30(12/04): arrived WAS 11 minutes early. [dep SKY 31 minutes late]
LSL #48(12/04): arrived NYP 6 minutes early.

Unfortunately the Cardinal #50(12/04) was 1 hour and 37 minutes late arriving at WAS.


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## neroden

I'm thinking the STB letter got some serious attention. NS has also been accelerating its Bellevue, Ohio yard project which is designed to redirect traffic off of this line, but it's not supposed to be done until the end of the year.


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## Train2104

Not sure if this is related, but Amtrak just put up an advisory saying that the SSL and Diner on the Capitol Limited will be replaced with a Diner/Lounge from 1/12/15 through 2/28/15 for "maintenance". It does not refer to any delays. What's going on here? Just a car shortage?


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## jis

neroden said:


> I'm thinking the STB letter got some serious attention.


Indeed, it very apparently did! I just notice that the STB did not need the backing of the Amtrak Performance Standards validity of which is being debated, in order to issue a very effective letter. The problem boils down more often than not I think into getting Amtrak and STB to do their job. Nothing stops Amtrak from using the standards draft as the basis for filing endless set of complaints with STB and see what STB does. That will give an indication of whether this whole regime will work or not de jure performance standards in place or not. STB just needs to enforce a few, and the relevant parties will get the message and fall in line. OTOH, if the STB sits on its thumbs and does nothing, or equivocates, then all the tea in China won;t make a difference.
No doubt having a de jure standard in place rather than not is better. But I am not sure that the parties involved are exactly doing the most they can even in the absence of such, as a matter of course at present. For example, Amtrak apparently seems to have difficulty in putting together a cogent case for the LSL given its own issue with timekeeping under its own control. Ref: the Kabooki dance in Albany, and weird wasteful Conductor behavior on the Empire Corridor regarding handling of pax loading that no one seems to be able to fix.


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## neroden

Train2104 said:


> Not sure if this is related, but Amtrak just put up an advisory saying that the SSL and Diner on the Capitol Limited will be replaced with a Diner/Lounge from 1/12/15 through 2/28/15 for "maintenance". It does not refer to any delays. What's going on here? Just a car shortage?


Probably. I remember riding on an SSL with cracked leaking windows a year ago. The SSLs may need more work than they've been getting, and for all I know the diners might too. This is the low season, probably the only time they could get away with a Diner/Lounge.


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## KVG_DC

Actually that train is usually pretty full this time of year with college kids doing holiday travel.


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## afigg

KVG_DC said:


> Actually that train is usually pretty full this time of year with college kids doing holiday travel.


If you are referring to the Sight-Seer Lounge and diner getting pulled from the CL, that is going to take place from Jan. 12 to the end of February. That is the slow season for many Amtrak routes, including the CL. Pulling the SSLs and diners for maintenance is a reasonable explanation. The supply of SSLs is tight and the numerous delays for much of 2014 with an extra consist for the EB likely put a strain on proper maintenance of the fleet and making Superliners available for their scheduled overhauls. January and February are the catch-up months.


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## Railroad Bill

We will be riding the CL in January and wish they would not pull both cars off at the same time. We have found the Cap pretty full when we travel in early January. But I suppose it would not work to pull the SSL and leave only the diner left for coach passengers. ^_^ Just need to get up early for breakfast on 30 to avoid the rush..


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## PaulM

I think the term diner-lounge is a misnomer. The "lounge" part is so small that diner-2 tables would be a more accurate name. It's been my experience that the 2-table end is usually occupied by on board staff. Are they going to find another place when there is no actual lounge car?


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## jis

There is a very interesting tidbit hidden away in a corner of the December 2014 Railpace Magazine related to these delays.

{begin paraphrase}

The American Train Dispatcher's Association filed a complaint with the FRA regarding Unified Train Control System auto-router (a product of GE as I have heard).

In the complaint they claim that the auto-router on occasions mis-routed trains, specially Amtrak trains into blocks that were supposed to have been protected for workers and hi-rail operation. They also complained that on occasions even after the auto-router was supposed to have been turned off, it continued to control signals and switches, without knowledge or ability of the dispatchers to do anything about it (the HAL effect). They further alleged that NS management prohibited overriding of the auto route function by the dispatcher to mitigate errors.

{end paraphrase}

Given this I am somewhat surprised that a few heads have not rolled at NS in the ranks of management, and if these allegations are trues there is very good reason to have much reduced confidence in the competence of NS management.

in short "what the f were they thinking? Have they taken complete leave of their common senses?"

Anyway, there would appear to be more to the fiasco at NS than just increased traffic as NS CEO Moorman claimed in response to the STB inquiry in what would appear to be a mother of a$$ covering by withholding relevant information.

I have roughly paraphrased the content of the article in Railpace in order to not run afoul of Copyrights. For the original see the Railpace December 2014 issue on page 9 title "ADTA Complaint Regarding Auto-Router".


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## neroden

jis said:


> in short "what the f were they thinking? Have they taken complete leave of their common senses?"


I think the answer here is "yes".


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## acelafan

afigg said:


> Thread has gone quiet in recent weeks. The question is the NS meltdown fully over or is this just an early winter lull? I had not checked in a few days but saw that all four CLs and LSLs had a good run today. Perhaps the best combined OTP in a while.
> 
> CL #29(12/04): arrived CHI 40 minutes late. [departed CLE 25 minutes late]
> 
> LSL #49(12/04): arrived CHI 2 minutes late [dep ALB on-time, Erie 44 minutes late.]
> 
> CL #30(12/04): arrived WAS 11 minutes early. [dep SKY 31 minutes late]
> 
> LSL #48(12/04): arrived NYP 6 minutes early.
> 
> Unfortunately the Cardinal #50(12/04) was 1 hour and 37 minutes late arriving at WAS.


I can't help myself, here are some performance charts for the Capitol Ltd and Lake Shore Ltd since November 1st. It seems the Capitol is doing better than Lake Shore in overall improvement, with #30 even early several times.

The huge spike in lateness around November 19th was that massive Buffalo snowstorm.


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## afigg

jis said:


> There is a very interesting tidbit hidden away in a corner of the December 2014 Railpace Magazine related to these delays.
> 
> {begin paraphrase}
> 
> The American Train Dispatcher's Association filed a complaint with the FRA regarding Unified Train Control System auto-router (a product of GE as I have heard).
> 
> ....
> 
> Anyway, there would appear to be more to the fiasco at NS than just increased traffic as NS CEO Moorman claimed in response to the STB inquiry in what would appear to be a mother of a$$ covering by withholding relevant information.
> 
> I have roughly paraphrased the content of the article in Railpace in order to not run afoul of Copyrights. For the original see the Railpace December 2014 issue on page 9 title "ADTA Complaint Regarding Auto-Router".


Would the complaint filed with the FRA be in the public record? Thus available somewhere on the FRA website?

With Amtrak having filed a complaint with the STB on NS, a separate complaint filed by the ATDA would support Amtrak's complaint. It likely will take years to for the STB to investigate and litigate the case, but NS may end up having to pay damages to Amtrak to cover the extra expenses for hotels & buses, additional crew costs, loss of business. Not going to be a lot of money, but the LD trains may book "other" income from a NS payment in a few years.

As for the effect of the STB letter, in general, the OTP for most of the LD trains appears to have been doing better since late October. The November OTP stats have not been posted yet, but my impression from random checks on Status Maps is that there have been fewer long delays*. Now some of this can be attributed to the end of track work season because it not a simple situation, but I wonder if the STB letter got the attention of the other Class 1's management who decided they would rather not get similar letters if they can help it.

* Except for CSX on the western Empire corridor and the Cardinal which has been having routine delays of several hours through IN and OH.


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## afigg

Norfolk Southern posted a Service Update on December 12. The good news is that all the track work on the northern region has been completed for the year. I think it shows with the better OTP of the CL and LSL over the NS segment. However, the track work crews have moved south for the winter and are going to result in Monday to Thursday cancellations of the Crescent for 6 weeks in January and February.

Some excerpts from the NS service update:



> Our recent resource additions and a moderate decline in seasonal business volumes following the Thanksgiving Holiday have resulted in an improvement in Norfolk Southern’s service levels. While this progress is encouraging, further substantial improvement is needed to provide the level of service our customers expect. We are targeting the end of the second quarter of 2015 for a return to historical train performance because we anticipate that severe winter weather will have an adverse impact on operations.





> NS completed rehabilitation of several yard tracks in Conway Yard, providing additional staging capacity and improved fluidity across the Northern Region.
> Additional capacity has been added to two of our intermodal facilities in Chicago.
> NS implemented its winter weather preparation plans, which included many of the resource additions noted above, as well as positioning personnel and assets at key locations across our network.
> NS has completed its annual, major rail, tie, and surfacing work on the Northern Region.


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## Ryan

NS fires back in two STB filings, including the gem "Norfolk Southern's freight arteries are not Amtrak's private playground".

A**holes.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/7ca97a4ec7ca8a6485257dc6006ec1ad/$FILE/237396.pdf

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/cb3789801120aa1c85257dc60067f5b8?OpenDocument

CSX files too, but I haven't read 'em yet.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/8fa0c929e68a773d85257dc60077e93f?OpenDocument

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/6d78638412e60e8b85257dc6007645e4?OpenDocument


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## tommylicious

I'm glad the complaints were filed and that NS has to answer for it. Morrison Foerster lawyers cost probably $1200/hr apiece. That doc is about 100 pages. NS paid dearly to have that thing made. They are paying heavily for this. Good. Maybe they'll take notice.


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## Bob Dylan

tommylicious said:


> I'm glad the complaints were filed and that NS has to answer for it. Morrison Foerster lawyers cost probably $1200/hr apiece. That doc is about 100 pages. NS paid dearly to have that thing made. They are paying heavily for this. Good. Maybe they'll take notice.


Nah, they just write if off as " cost of doing business" and we pick up the slack on April 15th!!
Shakespeare was right: " ..first we kill all the lawyers.."


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## neroden

RyanS said:


> NS fires back in two STB filings, including the gem "Norfolk Southern's freight arteries are not Amtrak's private playground".
> 
> A**holes.


NS can't run a railroad. Seize 'em the way Woodrow Wilson did. No mercy. The Chicago-NY rail corridor is a national security asset, part of STRACNET. and the **** coming out of Moorman's office should be treated accordingly.

The STB probably won't do this because the federal government is largely nonfunctional, but that's what a real government would do.



tommylicious said:


> I'm glad the complaints were filed and that NS has to answer for it. Morrison Foerster lawyers cost probably $1200/hr apiece. That doc is about 100 pages. NS paid dearly to have that thing made. They are paying heavily for this. Good. Maybe they'll take notice.


Hopefully the STB will respond by finding NS's arguments to be frivolous and without merit and will sanction them for filing frivolous arguments. But I'm not hopeful.
Having functional railroad dispatching is a national security matter. Amtrak is merely the canary in the coal mine.


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## acelafan

For the most part the Cap and Lake Shore are still doing pretty well. The cold weather took it's toll but recently on time performance has definitely improved.







http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/historychart.php?train_num=29&station=chi&date_start=1%2F10%2F2015&date_end=01%2F24%2F2015&sort=d_ar&chartsize=2&smooth=1






http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/historychart.php?train_num=30&station=was&date_start=1%2F10%2F2015&date_end=01%2F24%2F2015&sort=d_ar&chartsize=2&smooth=1






http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/historychart.php?train_num=49&station=chi&date_start=1%2F10%2F2015&date_end=01%2F24%2F2015&sort=d_ar&chartsize=2&smooth=1






http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/historychart.php?train_num=48&station=nyp&date_start=1%2F10%2F2015&date_end=01%2F24%2F2015&sort=d_ar&chartsize=2&smooth=1


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