# Beech Grove Superliners



## had8ley (Apr 17, 2009)

The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago.

Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;

Car # Type Repair Estimate Car Type

31006 S1 $1,321,000 Coach bag

31012 S1 $146,000 Coach bag

31026 S1 $570,000 Coach bag

31034 S1 $970,000 Coach bag

31537 S1 $2,000,000 Smoking Lounge

32014 S1 $1,890,000 Sleeper

32018 S1 $1,600,000 Sleeper

32035 S1 SCRAP Sleeper

32040 S1 $1,667,000 Sleeper

32046 S1 $1,973,000 Sleeper

32049 S1  $1,325,000 Sleeper

32065 S1 $1,368,000 Sleeper

32082 SII $146,000 Sleeper

32112 SII $1,625,000 Sleeper

32501 SII $2,170,000 Deluxe sleeper

33003 S1 $500,000 Lounge

33011 S1 $500,000 Lounge

33013 S1 $2,053,000 Lounge

33016 S1 $1,184,000 Lounge

33017 S1 $500,000 Lounge

33036 SII $1,366,000 Lounge

33045 SII SCRAP Lounge

34036 S1 SCRAP Lounge

34040 S1 $1,472,000 Coach

34051 S1 $920,000 Coach

34087 S1 $1,161,000 Coach

35005 S1 $435,000 Snack coach

35011 S1 $965,000 Snack coach

38000 S1 $600,000 Diner

38017 S1 $1,868,000 Diner

38023 S1 $382,000 Diner

38026 S1 $2,020,000 Diner

38031 S1 $1,625,000 Diner

38049 SII $1,706,000 Diner

39008 SII $1,440,000 Trans/Sleep

39020 SII $2,500,000 Trans/Sleep

39023 SII $1,578,000 Trans/Sleep

39025 & 39040 SII SCRAP Trans/Sleep

I would suspect the scrap cars are hanging around to be used for spare parts. Will be very interesting to see what comes out of Beech Grove from this list when all the repairs are complete.


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## MrFSS (Apr 17, 2009)

had8ley said:


> The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> 
> Car # Type Repair Estimate Car Type
> 
> ...


Any idea how long all this will take?


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## sunchaser (Apr 17, 2009)

had8ley said:


> The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> 
> Car # Type Repair Estimate Car Type
> 
> ...



Forgive my ignorance, but why does it cost sooo much to refurb some of these cars? Wouldn't it be cheaper to scrap some of them & buy new ones? For example, #39020, $2,500,000. That's a lot of $$$! :huh:


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Apr 17, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why does it cost sooo much to refurb some of these cars? Wouldn't it be cheaper to scrap some of them & buy new ones? For example, #39020, $2,500,000. That's a lot of $$$! :huh:


From my business world experience, repairs come out of a different budget than capital purchases. Even if it costs more to repair, there is far far less red tape and approvals needed.


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## EB_OBS (Apr 17, 2009)

I recall earlier this year seeing a list of passenger cars that would be returned to service this year from Beachgrove.

I'm pretty sure I remember that the list didn't include any Superliner LD cars.


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## George Harris (Apr 17, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> ...


All the high cost repair ones are those that would also be the most expensive to build in the first place. Notice that all are sleepers or special service cars. Also, repair work by its nature, piecemeal an not by production type measures, is more expensive per item thnt the original construction. I saw somewhere once that if you were to build an automobile from parts, it would cost about four times as much as the manufacturer's list price. Can't validate that, however.


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## GG-1 (Apr 17, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Forgive my ignorance, but why does it cost sooo much to refurb some of these cars? Wouldn't it be cheaper to scrap some of them & buy new ones? For example, #39020, $2,500,000. That's a lot of $$$! :huh:
> ...


Aloha

I am a dreamer, but in my warped/distorted mind, this is one reason we are in this terrible economic times. Don't worry about the total picture just keep it out of my budget so I look good.

Mahalo for letting me rant.


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## had8ley (Apr 17, 2009)

ez223 said:


> I recall earlier this year seeing a list of passenger cars that would be returned to service this year from Beachgrove.
> I'm pretty sure I remember that the list didn't include any Superliner LD cars.


Things have changed with the new political regime i.e.; stimulus $$$. There was no inference from the official Amtrak list that any of these cars would be repaired; just my assumption from reading other posts that Beech Grove is getting ready to do some heavy duty repair work. I did see some job vacancy bulletins for Beech Grove so maybe that's a good start.


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## sunchaser (Apr 17, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > sunchaser said:
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Ah, I understand! It's not about $$$, it's the appearance that counts? I guess I wouldn't be a good choice to run things then-if they are that far gone then scrap & use for parts on the others, buy a new one!!!!! I realize some of it wouldn't be usable, just sounds like a waste of cash.


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why does it cost sooo much to refurb some of these cars? Wouldn't it be cheaper to scrap some of them & buy new ones? For example, #39020, $2,500,000. That's a lot of $$$! :huh:


Sunchaser,

It's not just a matter of refurbishing these cars., all of them were involved in one wreck or another. That means that not only does Amtrak have to do a complete refurbishment of the insides of the car, they have to do varrying amounts of work to the exterior of the car. That might include straightening the frame, replacing part of the side of the car, and fixing other high cost structural problems.

Then of course they'll get new furnishings inside, especially since in many cases the insides have been exposed to the elements thanks to holes in the cars from the accidents.

One of the more expensive cars on the list is the Deluxe sleeper. This is a very unique car, there are only 5 others in the fleet, all assigned to the Auto Train. It doesn't have any roomettes on the upper level, instead it has 10 bedrooms as apposed to the normal 5. This car was heavily damaged in the Auto Train derailment about 5 years ago. It will require some major structural work, and then of course its interior will get updated with the new bathrooms. That's 10 new bathrooms on the upper level, instead of the normal 5.


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## printman2000 (Apr 17, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why does it cost sooo much to refurb some of these cars? Wouldn't it be cheaper to scrap some of them & buy new ones? For example, #39020, $2,500,000. That's a lot of $$! :huh:


It would cost more to buy the same number of cars new than to repair these. If you buy more cars to make the price per car go down, then you still going to spend a lot more than just repairing these.


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
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Sunchaser,

By repairing these cars, Amtrak can probably have most of them back in service and earning money by the end of this year. Ordering new cars, even assuming that Amtrak had the money, would probably take at least 3 years and maybe even a bit more than that. And I'd bet that a new Deluxe Sleeper would probably cost in the neighborhood of $3 Million new anyhow. So repairing them puts people to work immediately, as opposed to a few designers drawing up plans for new cars, and it gives Amtrak a quick boost to its carrying capacity.

Additionally Amtrak can command between $200 to $500, perhaps even more for those bedrooms on the AT. If we strike a middle number of $350 that one Deluxe sleeper can collect $1.2 Million next year just on the bedrooms alone. They'll also collect still more revenue from the family room, handicapped room, and the 4 roomettes on the lower level. So in just two years, that car will have already collected enough money to pay for its restoration.


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2009)

had8ley said:


> I would suspect the scrap cars are hanging around to be used for spare parts. Will be very interesting to see what comes out of Beech Grove from this list when all the repairs are complete.


It's also possible that the scrap cars are still being held for insurance purposes too.


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## Shanghai (Apr 17, 2009)

I read recently that Beech Grove will hire 180 new employees to refurbish and repair these cars.

In a normal business, there are major tax differences between buying new depreciable assets and repairing present assets.

In the case of Amtrak rolling stock, it may not differ due to their unusual tax status.


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## sunchaser (Apr 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> sunchaser said:
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> 
> > GG-1 said:
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Ok, that makes more sense to me. I do realize that getting new ones would take a while. I think it was you that pointed out on another thread that the sleepers bring in more revenue. My thought is whatever way they accomplish it, they should add more sleepers to increase revenue overall. It would help Amtrak be more financially stable. I would like to see Amtrak improve financially instead of having to limp along. And of course, in business, you try to provide goods or services that appeal to the public. I have noticed that the viewliners are short on bedrooms, and I do agree there is more than likely a need for more Deluxe Bedroom Cars!!!

I'm sure it could be a challenge to get a Viewliner Bedroom & cost quite a bit more than what most would want to pay.

Hopefully they will be able to get the repairs done fairly quickly. Does anyone know what an average turnaround on a car would be? I know it depends on what needs to be done, I'm thinking of the ones with relatively minor stuff, like upholstery, etc. You guys I'm sure would know.


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## DAWall (Apr 17, 2009)

had8ley said:


> The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> 
> Car # Type Repair Estimate Car Type
> 
> ...


I drove by Beech Grove today, from what I saw, many of the wrecks and stored Superliners have been moved. I couldn't see any numbers, but there were a few cars sticking out of the shop bays. It looks like they've started to work on at few of the cars to be put back into service. I also noticed the 8400 Viewliner diner coupled to a long string of Heritage lounge cars at the back of the shop's.


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## mkellerm (Apr 17, 2009)

had8ley said:


> The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> 
> Car # Type Repair Estimate Car Type
> 
> ...



The Amtrak ARRA project summary document listed the cars that are supposed to be repaired using recovery funds. I've added asterisks to those 20 cars. Interestingly, the dollar amounts here and the amounts listed in the project summary don't match up in general. Some of the others may already be programmed for existing funds (including the California Superliner project, which has two cars to go).


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## Steve4031 (Apr 17, 2009)

That is a lot of superliner cars. To get them repaired in a year would address many of the superliner car shortage issues, which would be a solid accomplishment.

And thanks to the OP and to the poster who put in the asterisks. This was enjoyable info to peruse after a day at work.


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## Shawn (Apr 17, 2009)

Can anyone that lives in that area get a couple of pics of them?


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## jis (Apr 17, 2009)

Interesting that they have chosen to fund many cars that are going to cost $1M+ per car out of ARRA.

When all is said and done Amtrak will have the following additional cars in service:

Deluxe Sleeper 1

Sleeper 6

Lounge 4

Diner 4

Coach 3

TransDorm 2

If you add the low cost cars that will almost inevitably get taken care of in the general budget you have the following additional:

Coach 4

Diner 2

Sleeper 1

Lounge 1

Looks like there are cars enough to add two train sets with a few to spare.


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## pismobum (Apr 17, 2009)

"Some of the others may already be programmed for existing funds (including the California Superliner project, which has two cars to go)."

No way to verify the source, but allegedly 31034 and 34051 are to be 'Calif Cars'. Makes sense since each estimate is under 1 mil and neither car is on the 'stimulus list'.

Some intriguing info here. 34087 wrecked in 2004 - estimate repair was $350k. Now it's $1.1MIL! 33013 in same wreck estimate was $700k - now estimated $2.05MIL! (can you say 'inflation'? - or maybe 'second estimate!!').

32049 was not reported as in an accident, but 'FREEZE DAMAGE" in Chicago. Estimated repair $1.3MIL???

Also curious that no reported wreck I'm aware of for 32065 yet repair estimate $1.368MIL!!


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## sechs (Apr 18, 2009)

jis said:


> Interesting that they have chosen to fund many cars that are going to cost $1M+ per car out of ARRA.


One imagines that it's a combination of those which will generate jobs plus getting this work paid out of a different budget.


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## AlanB (Apr 18, 2009)

pismobum said:


> Some intriguing info here. 34087 wrecked in 2004 - estimate repair was $350k. Now it's $1.1MIL! 33013 in same wreck estimate was $700k - now estimated $2.05MIL! (can you say 'inflation'? - or maybe 'second estimate!!').


I can think of two other reasons, beyond inflation which may still be a factor in the increases.

1) Weather damage caused by the cars being left exposed for years, especially if they had open holes caused by the wreck.

2) I don't believe that the original estimates included refurbishment of the insides, which I believe all of these cars will get in addition to fixing their war wounds.


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## had8ley (Apr 18, 2009)

AlanB said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > I would suspect the scrap cars are hanging around to be used for spare parts. Will be very interesting to see what comes out of Beech Grove from this list when all the repairs are complete.
> ...


Very good point Alan. The CSX held the Alabama Bayou tragedy cars for quite some time both in Mobile and Gentilly yards. The T&E boys said investigators and lawyers were inspecting them almost daily.


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## had8ley (Apr 18, 2009)

mkellerm said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> ...


Holy boxcars Batman! They sure have added the heavy hitters in terms of cost to be repaired. The list was provided by Amtrak; I cannot provide any info as to why the estimates vary as none was given. I would like to see a diner come out for only $382,000 as opposed to the mega-millions in bucks and time it's going to take to repair some of these wrecked cars.


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## Hanno (Apr 22, 2009)

Does anyone have an idea when the first car will be completed and released for use. It would be great to be able to see where each car ends up being used!


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 22, 2009)

had8ley said:


> Holy boxcars Batman! They sure have added the heavy hitters in terms of cost to be repaired. The list was provided by Amtrak; I cannot provide any info as to why the estimates vary as none was given. I would like to see a diner come out for only $382,000 as opposed to the mega-millions in bucks and time it's going to take to repair some of these wrecked cars.


On the contrary, Jay. It makes more sense to repair the heavily damaged cars with this money. The lightly damaged cars can quite easily be repaired out of general funds. Repairing the lightly damaged ones in lieu of the heavily damaged ones will leave the heavily damaged ones off the rails without the considerable capital required to fix them. This will put them back on and leave the lightly damaged cars for another day, where more normal sums of money for car refurbishment can be spent on them. This will allow basically all of the cars that are repairable to make their way back onto the system.

Amtrak's gotta strike as hard as they can while the iron is hot. We all know how rare decent Amtrak funding is. We all know Amtrak's best interests are to over invest at this point. That way they have what they need to hold them through more hostile times. Everything would be better now if Amtrak had consummated the Viewliner program prior to Carter being elected, for example.

Sadly, Amtrak is a political animal. That means its ability to do things is restricted by where it stands on the political landscape, rather than what makes sense. They need to do every last thing they can while they have the chance to do it. We all know that in 10 years, most likely without new single level cars, one of the Silvers will have to be cut because they simply won't have the needed number of Viewliners to make them all run. That in ten years, without new single level purchases, maybe, if we are lucky, one of the trains will retain full dining service. They won't have the cars to run them then.

Its been 15 years since Amtrak has been able to order long-distance rail cars now. And they weren't even able to order what they needed. Think of the trains that were cut because of it, too. The Cardinal used to be full service and daily. The Silver Palm and Broadway Limited are gone too. The Lake Shore Limited doesn't even have a bloody dining car. Think about what we've lost due to lack of Viewliners and Superliners! Full service _Cardinal_, the _Broadway Limited_, the _Three Rivers_, the _Kentucky Cardinal_ (which might have survived if it had a sleeping car! Its death killed the possibility of a resurrected _Floridian_), the _Silver Palm_, the _Lake Shore Limited_'s dining car and the _Federal/Night Owl/Twilight Shoreliner_.

We need to look at this from the perspective of Washington politics, not sanity and good sense!


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## jis (Apr 22, 2009)

I also think that it was the right decision to fund the more expensive per unit cost repairs from the Stimulus and leave the less expensive per unit cost ones to be taken care of from general funds, since it is likely to be easier to find samll amounts at a time out of general funds than huge amounts.


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## saxman (Apr 22, 2009)

So any guess as to where these cars might be distributed to? I know the Empire Builder is a given and could use and extra coach going the entire route even. Extra sleeper too? There are 6 lounges in there. Perhaps put one back on the CONO? There are 6 diners too. I wonder if they plan on making any of those a CCC. I like the concept of the CCC, but the table design sure is funky and its awkward eating at that 3 person table. I do like the modern look though.


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## printman2000 (Apr 22, 2009)

saxman66 said:


> I wonder if they plan on making any of those a CCC. I like the concept of the CCC, but the table design sure is funky and its awkward eating at that 3 person table. I do like the modern look though.


I certainly hope not. I think they have too many already. Only the CONO is using them the way they were intended. The other trains are simply making do with a car that does not work near as well as a dining car.


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## AlanB (Apr 22, 2009)

I believe that I saw it stated some where, that the diners will go to the Capitol Limited and the CCC's will come off the Capitol.


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## Bierboy (Apr 22, 2009)

Shawn said:


> Can anyone that lives in that area get a couple of pics of them?


I'm gonna be in Indy April 30-May 3, so I'll try to get some pics.


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## pismobum (Apr 25, 2009)

In addition to the list in this topic, 2 more cars are 'SD' (stored-damaged) vs 'WR' (wreck-repair). 33001 came off in February with no reason I have located so far, and 33010 also happened in February, but it was not 'pulled from service'.

33010 was the 'prototype' for 'diner-lite' LOUNGE conversion (all the others were DINER conversions - i.e. 38xxx cars).

If 33010 is now 'SD', then in addition to the (merciful) termination of the full diner conversions, it looks like they abandonded the idea of converting lounges too.


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## gaspeamtrak (Apr 26, 2009)

jis said:


> I also think that it was the right decision to fund the more expensive per unit cost repairs from the Stimulus and leave the less expensive per unit cost ones to be taken care of from general funds, since it is likely to be easier to find samll amounts at a time out of general funds than huge amounts.


Jis, do you have any idea how many more Superliners there are to be repaired with minor damage that aren't on the list that are just sitting around Beach Grove/Chicago or else where at Amtrak locations/yards???


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 26, 2009)

gaspeamtrak said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I also think that it was the right decision to fund the more expensive per unit cost repairs from the Stimulus and leave the less expensive per unit cost ones to be taken care of from general funds, since it is likely to be easier to find samll amounts at a time out of general funds than huge amounts.
> ...


Here's the logic. Amtrak has money right now-- more money than they have in years. Next year they won't have that money. Next year they won't be able to repair this lot. Next year they can repair the minor damaged stock out of their annual budget rather than stimulus money.

Remember the stimulus money is supposed to put people to work. Fixing total and near wrecks puts more people to work than fixing the paint jobs-- it means somebody has to mine iron, make steel, cast parts, ship parts, install them, ect. ect.


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## AlanB (Apr 26, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> gaspeamtrak said:
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> > jis said:
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I don't think that Gaspeamtrak was questioning the wisdom of why Amtrak is repairing the more heavily damaged cars, he was just curious and seeking info on how many cars might be sitting around with minor damage.


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## jis (Apr 26, 2009)

gaspeamtrak said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I also think that it was the right decision to fund the more expensive per unit cost repairs from the Stimulus and leave the less expensive per unit cost ones to be taken care of from general funds, since it is likely to be easier to find samll amounts at a time out of general funds than huge amounts.
> ...


Take a look at the list in earlier posts in this thread. The ones that are not marked with a * are the ones that are yet to be scheduled for fixup.


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## gaspeamtrak (Apr 26, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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That's right Alan!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 26, 2009)

gaspeamtrak said:


> AlanB said:
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> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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In that case I'm sorry!

Though, its nice to re-iterate Amtrak's logic.


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## had8ley (Apr 27, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> gaspeamtrak said:
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> > AlanB said:
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In answer to "how many cars are sitting around for minor repairs?"I was told that the list I was given by Amtrak was every Superliner lined up at Beech Grove; whether or not they're ultimately repaired is up to Amtrak. I'm almost certain there are cars at outlying points that need repairs but either can't be moved to Beech Grove or will be repaired in place.


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## pismobum (Apr 27, 2009)

had8ley said:


> I'm almost certain there are cars at outlying points that need repairs but either can't be moved to Beech Grove or will be repaired in place.


In point of fact, NO!

Amtrak's equipment inventory shows every superliner that is active, "SD" (stored damaged) or "WR" (wreck repair). All 39 were on the list (plus the 2 I listed a few posts above) - total 41.

Yes, 'minor' problems sometimes sideline a car for a day or two somewhere, and cars rotate thru Beech Grove for routine maintenance, but there are no 'offsite' or otherwise unserviceable superliners.

If you look at the list and exclude the "*" stimulus cars, then exclude any others in the million $ or above estimate or noted as 'to be scrapped' (ain't never gonna get repaired) you'll get how many 'other cars' Amtrak may or may not repair with non-stimulus funds (up until the next wreck/derailment/fire etc puts more out of service)


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## Thomas (Oct 25, 2010)

mkellerm said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > The following list was supplied by Amtrak a couple of weeks ago. Superliner LD cars now at Beech Grove;
> ...


Why are some cars that are more expensive than others being repaired and not the cheaper ones? Does Amtrak intend to repair all of them once funding is available?


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## dlagrua (Oct 25, 2010)

I would assume that refurbishment is an ongoing task as wear and tear takes its toll on trains that run for 1000's of miles weekly. It has been common that we've encountered broken items in the bedrooms and we wish that Amtrak would be more diligent in a repair capacity. Things like broken tables chairs and doors that won't keep closed are particularly annoying. Some people have even reported chairs that were totoally missing. The items that I've sited can be done in a relatively short amount of time (hours not days) and I sometimes wonder why this type of neglect isn't adressed.


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## AlanB (Oct 25, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> I would assume that refurbishment is an ongoing task as wear and tear takes its toll on trains that run for 1000's of miles weekly. It has been common that we've encountered broken items in the bedrooms and we wish that Amtrak would be more diligent in a repair capacity. Things like broken tables chairs and doors that won't keep closed are particularly annoying. Some people have even reported chairs that were totoally missing. The items that I've sited can be done in a relatively short amount of time (hours not days) and I sometimes wonder why this type of neglect isn't adressed.


Refurbishments and wreck repairs are not the same thing. Refurbishments are an attempt by Amtrak to extend a cars useful life and to replace things that have been worn out.

A wreck repair is a car that derailed and was damaged physically in that derailment. That could be a twisted frame, a large hole ripped into the side, or other major forms of damage to the car. Yes, the wreck repairs coming off the line these days are also being refurbished even as the wreck damage is being fixed, but wrecks & refurbishments are not the same thing.


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## AlanB (Oct 25, 2010)

Thomas said:


> mkellerm said:
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> > had8ley said:
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In some cases Amtrak choose more expensive cars simply because they were unique and desperately needed. For example the Superliner II Deluxe Sleeper for the Auto Train. In other cases I suspect that perhaps a few cars are still awaiting insurance settlements and/or NTSB inspections. Finally I think that in a few cases it was simply the hope that Amtrak would eventually be able to find the money for a few of the cheaper cars on its own. But finding a million or more would be much harder.


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## Thomas (Oct 25, 2010)

So if additional funds become available, will Amtrak repair these Superliners as well?


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 25, 2010)

I was under the impression that any Superliner not repaired under the Stimulus grant was too far gone to be repaired, thus the scrapping of five cars (too bad two of them are Sightseer lounges).


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## AlanB (Oct 25, 2010)

MikefromCrete said:


> I was under the impression that any Superliner not repaired under the Stimulus grant was too far gone to be repaired, thus the scrapping of five cars (too bad two of them are Sightseer lounges).


If they're repairing cars that have a Million plus in costs to repair, then I can't imagine that they plan to scrap cars with only $200K & $300K in damage.

Yes, some cars will be scrapped as noted on the list above. But there are cars on that list not being repaired and not being scrapped.


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## AlanB (Oct 25, 2010)

Thomas said:


> So if additional funds become available, will Amtrak repair these Superliners as well?


Well I'm sure that if someone gives Amtrak the funds they'll be more than happy to repair them. If not, then they may languish for a while until Amtrak can find the funds on its own.


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## dlagrua (Oct 25, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Thomas said:
> 
> 
> > So if additional funds become available, will Amtrak repair these Superliners as well?
> ...


Just imagine how much money would be available for upgrading the US rail systems, if the politicans had not given so much of our tax money to their criminal friends on Wall Street. If we stopped making and funding wars, heck that would save billions too.

Sadly Amtrak will always be an afterthought as it doesn't put millions in their campaign coffers!


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## pebbleworm (Oct 26, 2010)

Or spent a whole bunch of cash on two meaningless, un-winnable, and un-necessary wars and unprecedented tax cuts for billionaires... I can grudgingly accept propping up the tentpoles of our teetering financial system after a failed experiment in de-regulation, at least in comparison.


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## AlanB (Oct 26, 2010)

Lets stay on topic please!


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## colobok (Oct 26, 2010)

I am shocked with these prices.

Anybody has estimate of railcar costs in other contries?

It's only a rail car, not the rocket, plane or luxury car.

Other contries have thousand times more railcars than USA, I don't believe they pay few millions for each car.

It should cost at least 10-20 times less.


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## pebbleworm (Oct 26, 2010)

Railcars have to be built for pretty extreme service with a very heavy structure and they need to be reliable. So, they are expensive. If you try to cheap out, like for example the General Motors Aerotrain from the 50's with modified bus bodies the cars buzz, vibrate and rattle themselves to pieces. The first example I could think of for foreign pricing for railcars were the Nightstar cars VIA rail bought at fire-sale prices- 130,000,000 US for 139 cars, some of them only shells. So still about $1,000,000 each, and "fair market value" was estimated at 400 to 500,000,000-an average of 3.6 million each, including the shells. There are plenty of railcars that have been in service for 50 years- even a modern container ship is only expected to last 25 years or so. They just aren't cheap!

Nightstar cars:

aerotrain


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## VentureForth (Oct 26, 2010)

I noticed that this thread started almost 18 months ago. How many of those cars are back in service?


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## AlanB (Oct 26, 2010)

As of August, the latest update from OTOL shows that 9 of the cars have been returned to service. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that 1 or 2 more have since returned to service.

Remember that there is a lot of work being done on these cars. In addition to fixing the wreck damage, which in many cases is extensive, these cars are all getting refurbished interiors also.


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## dlagrua (Oct 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> As of August, the latest update from OTOL shows that 9 of the cars have been returned to service. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that 1 or 2 more have since returned to service.
> 
> Remember that there is a lot of work being done on these cars. In addition to fixing the wreck damage, which in many cases is extensive, these cars are all getting refurbished interiors also.


Thanks for passing on the great news. Beech Grove should be able to turn these cars out on a regular continual basis. I've seen a video of that place and it is absolutely huge.

I just hope that Beech Grove also refurbishes some Viewliners as they are getting pretty worn but does anyone know if the Viewliners are being refurbished in Delaware? I know that new ones are expected to be put in service in 2012 but until then.......what?????


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## AlanB (Oct 27, 2010)

Beech Grove was scheduled to work on 12 Viewliner's last year. That's the fiscal year, which just ended this past September. As of July they had done 5, but it seems as though they hadn't finished the prior year's program so that may be why they are behind at that point for last year's program.

Viewliners never go to any Delaware facilities unless they happen to break down right near one. Normal Viewliner work is done in Hialeah, Fl the home base for Viewliner's or in Beech Grove.


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## VentureForth (Oct 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Beech Grove was scheduled to work on 12 Viewliner's last year. That's the fiscal year, which just ended this past September. As of July they had done 5, but it seems as though they hadn't finished the prior year's program so that may be why they are behind at that point for last year's program.
> 
> Viewliners never go to any Delaware facilities unless they happen to break down right near one. Normal Viewliner work is done in Hialeah, Fl the home base for Viewliner's or in Beech Grove.


I guess I'm confused as to why they couldn't even complete 1/2 of the schedule? The schedule should have reflected the extent of damage, and they have all kinds of money being flung at them. I guess I just don't understand the excuses why 5 of 12 Viewliners were refurbished PER THE SCHEDULE and only 9-11 Superliners...


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## cpamtfan (Oct 27, 2010)

VentureForth said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Beech Grove was scheduled to work on 12 Viewliner's last year. That's the fiscal year, which just ended this past September. As of July they had done 5, but it seems as though they hadn't finished the prior year's program so that may be why they are behind at that point for last year's program.
> ...


9-11 Superliners were REBUILT, alot more Suprliners came and went from Beech Grove during the last year and a half.

As for the Viewliners, there are so few that they haven't had the time to refurbish them. There are a couple, but from the looks I've taken in some of them, not much design change. Just a different scheme on the outside. I wouldn't be surprised if new single level long distance overnight trains don't start for a while so the older cars can get freshened up.


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## AlanB (Oct 27, 2010)

VentureForth said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Beech Grove was scheduled to work on 12 Viewliner's last year. That's the fiscal year, which just ended this past September. As of July they had done 5, but it seems as though they hadn't finished the prior year's program so that may be why they are behind at that point for last year's program.
> ...


There is no wreck damage to the Viewliners, therefore the schedule would not reflect any extra time for refurbishing those cars.

While I have no actual knowledge, I suspect that with the Stimulus monies having a time line attached that Beech Grove took people off the other work like the Viewliners and general Superliner work to get started on the wrecks. They did that while they started hiring more workers to handle all the extra work. And remember that Beech Grove also got P40's to work on too.

That set them behind on the Viewliner schedule from fiscal 2008. That program was completed in fiscal 2009, which of course put the fiscal 2009 Viewliner program behind schedule.

I have no idea what timeline Amtrak forcasted for the wrecked Superliners, if they even did forecast a timeline beyond of course the fact that the Stimulus monies must be spent by a specific data as mandated in the funding Bill.


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## afigg (Oct 27, 2010)

AlanB said:


> While I have no actual knowledge, I suspect that with the Stimulus monies having a time line attached that Beech Grove took people off the other work like the Viewliners and general Superliner work to get started on the wrecks. They did that while they started hiring more workers to handle all the extra work. And remember that Beech Grove also got P40's to work on too.


The August 2010 monthly report shows that 5 Viewliners have been overhauled under FY10 funding, but another 8 have been overhauled under a stimulus 29xx project number. The monthly reports show a lot of overhauls being done using stimulus funds rather than the FY10 line items. Look at page 41 and 42 of the August report. Looks to me like Amtrak decided to shift much of the overhaul costs to use up the stimulus money so they could use the FY10 funds in other areas.

What is the standard or recommended overhaul interval for the Viewliner and Superliner sleepers? I worked in a mid-range Marriott hotel one summer (many years ago) and was amazed back then at the amount of petty abuse that some people would do to their hotel rooms. Tear towel racks out of the wall, clog up toilets with stuff better not discussed, damage or toss the furniture, or occasionally just trash the room. This was not a low rent hotel mind you, but a mid-range hotel with a lot of business travelers in a suburban area. Projecting that onto the sleeper cars, Amtrak does not have much flexibility to take a room out of the reservation system, so maintenance can spend a day or 2 working on the room. I figure besides frequent maintenance, the sleepers have to go through a pretty regular overhaul cycle to get everything in good condition.


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## Ben (Oct 29, 2010)

So any timeline as to when the rest of the Superliners will be released? Obviously, money isn't really an issue as Amtrak just ordered $466 million worth of locomotives, so it must be just litigation. How long could the process take?


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## AlanB (Oct 29, 2010)

Ben said:


> So any timeline as to when the rest of the Superliners will be released? Obviously, money isn't really an issue as Amtrak just ordered $466 million worth of locomotives, so it must be just litigation. How long could the process take?


I've heard of cars sitting around for several years between NTSB inspections and litigation.

And money is still an issue, the funding for those engines isn't coming out of the operations budget.


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## Bierboy (Oct 30, 2010)

I talked to our SCA on our recent CZ trip, and she said she's worked on one of the new Superliner Sleepers. Said it's similar in layout to the current ones, but updated with touch screens etc. Didnt't have many more details...


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