# 'Ride the Ducks' vehicle, charter bus collide in Seattle



## CHamilton

'Ride the Ducks' vehicle, charter bus collide on Aurora Bridge


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## MikefromCrete

Sort of a light-hearted title for an event in which two people were killed.


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## CHamilton

The fatalities were not known when I posted. The title has been changed.


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## GG-1

Aloha

I have taken that tour. While I have no idea regarding this incident other than some of the article comments regarding the crash itself seem improbable. One in particular was the one about enough speed to spin the Duck 180. I found everyone involved with Duck Tours to focus on safety. I also disagree with the remark that the vehicles , as ex military are unsafe.


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## CHamilton

4 Dead, Dozens Injured in Crash on Aurora Bridge


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## Devil's Advocate

Early eyewitness accounts indicated that the converted military vehicle appeared to swerve and then overcorrect which resulted in the crash. Apparently there have been several incidents of unsafe operation resulting in pedestrians and motorcyclists being runover by these converted military machines. It would appear that these "duck" devices may be operating on public roads without modern handling, useful bumpers, crumple zones, or decades worth of other safety improvements. Perhaps it's time for Seattle and/or the DOT to reevaluate any grandfathering or special privileges granted for use with these vehicles.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The charter bus is a J4500. Apparently all 4 fatalities were on the J4500.


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## jis

That thing got peeled open like a tin can!


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## fairviewroad

For those wondering what those "Ride the Ducks" vehicles look like, here's a photo from Wikipedia. You can easily imagine how the front

end of that thing might pose a danger to other vehicles. Though of course, there's still an investigation ahead:


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## CHamilton

Dozens of exchange students among the injured in fatal bus crash


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## railiner

What an absolutely horrible accident. My thoughts to the victim's...

Of note in the story, is the fact that some of the bus passenger's were thrown from the bus. Another case to reinforce the call to use seatbelts on buses.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

How did the passengers get thrown from the bus? Did they get thrown out the sides?

Considering how the J4500 fiberglass panels are clipped and bonded together, rather than riveted and welded, it's no surprise it took heavy damage. I myself was shocked to see that the passengers didn't open the side windows to escape.


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## CHamilton

Deadly crash of 'Duck' vehicle, tour bus raises safety concerns


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## Bob Dylan

Austin is full of these things and they have been involved in several accidents in the terrible traffic here! Luckily no-one has been killed or seriously injured! (so far)


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## rickycourtney

Here's the story I worked on with our investigative team yesterday:

Decade-old advice on Aurora Bridge not heeded

The Aurora bridge has 6 narrow lanes (9-9.5 feet wide, standard is 10-12), with no median, no shoulders and semi-protected sidewalks on either side. There's no margin for error. The Washington State DOT knows this, has studied this and yet has not made any significant changes to the bridge.


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## BCL

I would just point out that the ones they're using are not converted ex-military vehicles. There are some of those original ones are still operating now, but I don't believe this particular company uses them. They build them at a factory near Branson, Missouri. Before that I believe they had other companies building them for them.



> http://www.genesis-capital.com/news/id/110/herschend-family-entertainment-corp-acquired-ride-the-ducks-international.aspx
> 
> The company operates in Branson, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and at Stone Mountain Park in Atlanta. It also owns a manufacturing plant east of Branson that produces 12 to 15 of the vehicles each year.





> http://ridetheducks.com/franchising/
> 
> The only organization with close to 40 years experience in Duck development and operations.
> 
> Builder of the world’s largest fleet of tourism ready amphibious vehicles.
> 
> Building vehicles from the ground up, under United States Coast Guard supervision, since 1997!





> http://philadelphia.ridetheducks.com
> 
> Yep, Ride The Ducks is an amphibian – this thing really does go from land right into the river. Our Ducks resemble the WWII DUKW in appearance only. The Ride The Ducks vehicle is built, exclusively for us, from the ground-up using the latest in marine safety.


This photo shows the damage, but isn't graphic since the passengers had been removed from the immediate scene. The amphibious vehicle didn't come out of it unscathed, but it's pretty clear that the tour bus suffered the worst damage to the passenger compartment. The early reports were that they were going in the same direction, but reports later said they were in opposite directions with the amphibious vehicle swerving after clipping a vehicle. I heard that the tour bus was filled with international students at a local college. It seems like most of them were Chinese.


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## CHamilton

12 years since Duck vehicle in fatal crash got state inspection


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## CHamilton

NTSB to examine Duck vehicle’s sheared wheel, axle


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## BCL

CHamilton said:


> NTSB to examine Duck vehicle’s sheared wheel, axle


I noticed in that article the NTSB rep said that this particular vehicle was made in 1945 but had a more modern drivetrain. It was my understanding that the organization built new ones from the ground up, but it looks like they do have some vintage ones that have been refitted. Still - my understanding is that most of these are fabricated at their factory in Missouri.

Some saw red fluid gushing out, and it sound like was probably transmission fluid.


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## The Davy Crockett

From what I can tell most or all other significant mishaps with these vehicles have involved them sinking: In 1999 in Lake Hamilton in Arkansas where 13 died; Off Milwaukee in Lake Michigan in 2000 where all crew and passengers where rescued; and In the Delaware River in Philly in 2010 where two passengers died. Surprisingly to me, I couldn't find anything about where they've been involved in any other fatalities on land as, from what I've witnessed here in the other Washington, they seem to have a tendency to bounce around a lot when going down the road.


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## BCL

The Davy Crockett said:


> From what I can tell most or all other significant mishaps with these vehicles have involved them sinking: In 1999 in Lake Hamilton in Arkansas where 13 died; Off Milwaukee in Lake Michigan in 2000 where all crew and passengers where rescued; and In the Delaware River in Philly in 2010 where two passengers died. Surprisingly to me, I couldn't find anything about where they've been involved in any other fatalities on land as, from what I've witnessed here in the other Washington, they seem to have a tendency to bounce around a lot when going down the road.


I saw one over the summer in San Francisco. However, they have discontinued the tours since they would have been subject to a new city ordinance that would prohibit the driver from also serving as the guide. They closed shop since they claimed they couldn't justify paying for a separate narrator, who would also take up a seat.

The law in San Francisco is for all tour operators, after a cable car styled tour bus (run by the same company that ran the SF Ride the Ducks business) hit a pedestrian (who died from it).

http://abc7news.com/news/woman-hit-by-sf-cable-car-bus-dies/363214/

http://abc7news.com/business/ride-the-ducks-tours-in-san-francisco-fly-out-of-town-/976634/


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## Swadian Hardcore

I don't know about the duck vehicle, but the J4500 charter bus, a web integral semi monocoque motorcoach, has a tubular T304 stainless steel frame and a all-fiberglass (GFRP) exterior. The exterior panels are clipped onto the stainless tubes with nylon clips. The side windows are bonded (glued) onto the frame.

So, basically, the J4500 is a very fragile motorcoach. In fact, I believe one of the deadliest accidents in recent years involved a J4500.

I'm still shocked nobody opened the emergency exit windows to escape. Most of the J4500 side windows are emergency exits windows.


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## NW cannonball

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't know about the duck vehicle, but the J4500 charter bus, a web integral semi monocoque motorcoach, has a tubular T304 stainless steel frame and a all-fiberglass (GFRP) exterior. The exterior panels are clipped onto the stainless tubes with nylon clips. The side windows are bonded (glued) onto the frame.
> 
> So, basically, the J4500 is a very fragile motorcoach. In fact, I believe one of the deadliest accidents in recent years involved a J4500.
> 
> I'm still shocked nobody opened the emergency exit windows to escape. Most of the J4500 side windows are emergency exits windows.


I'm totally unsure whether passengers used the escape windows, or just escaped thru the shattered sidewall of the broken bus.

Media reports many escaped, or were thrown from the bus.

Don't know what to believe.

Hope the NTSB investigation shows light on the whole sorry thing.


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## CHamilton

Trauma therapist offers healing advice after bridge crash

This is useful advice. (Full disclosure: Robin is a friend and client.)


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## The Davy Crockett

Charlie,

Friend and client or not, based on personal experience, I agree with you that she gives really good advice.

Thanks for posting. :hi:


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## rickycourtney

Second crash on Aurora Bridge in less than a week

Totally different circumstances and outcome, but it shows just how dangerous this bridge is.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't know about the duck vehicle, but the J4500 charter bus, a web integral semi monocoque motorcoach, has a tubular T304 stainless steel frame and a all-fiberglass (GFRP) exterior. The exterior panels are clipped onto the stainless tubes with nylon clips. The side windows are bonded (glued) onto the frame.


I'm sure this is something the NTSB will be looking into.


Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm still shocked nobody opened the emergency exit windows to escape. Most of the J4500 side windows are emergency exits windows.


I'm not sure why you're fixated on this. 
It appears that after the crash the front door was still operable. That's a much better way for passengers to disembark since it doesn't involve dropping several feet down.

Furthermore, one whole side of the coach was ripped open like a tin can. It's possible passengers climbed out of that opening. In fact, rescuers were standing on the hood of the duck and using that opening to pull people out of the wreckage.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> Here's the story I worked on with our investigative team yesterday:
> 
> Decade-old advice on Aurora Bridge not heeded
> 
> The Aurora bridge has 6 narrow lanes (9-9.5 feet wide, standard is 10-12), with no median, no shoulders and semi-protected sidewalks on either side. There's no margin for error. The Washington State DOT knows this, has studied this and yet has not made any significant changes to the bridge.


Those would be very narrow lanes for a bridge carrying commercial vehicles that are 8.5 feet wide, and closer to ten feet over the edges of their side mirrors....

They should either restrict commercial traffic, or install a center divider, and eliminate a lane, making the remaining lanes wider....

I imagine this was not done after the earlier study account a combination of cost, and loss of a lane or two.....perhaps they'll reconsider now.....


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## The Davy Crockett

Sorry to play the cynic, but it seems likely that what will happen is that a couple of million bucks will be spent on a multi-year study with the result, unless there are more tragedies during that period, that nothing changes. Commuters and businesses won't want a reduction in capacity, commercial transportation interests won't want to be prohibited from using the bridge, and the phenomenon known as 'issue attention cycle' will mean that the public and the news media will have moved on to other things.


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## railiner

Your probably correct....however, the P.I. attorney's representing the victims will have a strong case to dig into the governments deep pockets, based on some kind of negligence for ignoring the earlier study....that could be a catalyst for action this time around...


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## BCL

The Davy Crockett said:


> Sorry to play the cynic, but it seems likely that what will happen is that a couple of million bucks will be spent on a multi-year study with the result, unless there are more tragedies during that period, that nothing changes. Commuters and businesses won't want a reduction in capacity, commercial transportation interests won't want to be prohibited from using the bridge, and the phenomenon known as 'issue attention cycle' will mean that the public and the news media will have moved on to other things.


They spent $30 million on the barrier for the Golden Gate Bridge. However, about a fifth of their money for the project came from toll revenue which the Aurora Bridge doesn't have. They didn't remove any lanes, but they did restripe and made the lanes narrower.


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## rickycourtney

The Davy Crockett said:


> Sorry to play the cynic, but it seems likely that what will happen is that a couple of million bucks will be spent on a multi-year study with the result, unless there are more tragedies during that period, that nothing changes. Commuters and businesses won't want a reduction in capacity, commercial transportation interests won't want to be prohibited from using the bridge, and the phenomenon known as 'issue attention cycle' will mean that the public and the news media will have moved on to other things.


That's already happened before. A multi-million dollar multi-year study was conducted and mostly ignored.
But that was 2003 and this is 2015. What's changed? Seattle's leaders. The city DOT is currently on a rechannelization (our word for a road diet) spree.

Considering the studies have been done, the work can likely start as soon as the money is found.

As a member of the news media I can honestly say that this is an issue I won't forget. Someone needs to be held accountable and a fix needs to be made.


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## The Davy Crockett

Time will tell.

Seattle's road diet certainly doesn't include the massive big dig freeway debacle, which continues being inched forward under the city by Big Bertha (when she is not floundering in the mud) despite plenty of citizens, who seem to have a lot more common sense than the current city leadership (when it comes to this particular money pit anyway) trying very hard to kill the monster. At least the Alaska Viaduct's replacement will keep traffic out of downtown, since it will basically have no exits into or out of downtown!

I do recognize and commend you on your ongoing interest in the various transportation challenges Seattle faces. I sincerely hope you can make a difference and you prove me wrong!


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## CHamilton

NTSB: Duck boat involved in fatal Seattle crash did not have axle repair recommended in 2013


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## CHamilton

5th victim of Aurora bridge crash dies


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## Swadian Hardcore

The J4500 isn't an unsafe bus. It's built like many cars are and is probably more resistant than most cars. Still, it is not as durable as the duck boat, for example.


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## BCL

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The J4500 isn't an unsafe bus. It's built like many cars are and is probably more resistant than most cars. Still, it is not as durable as the duck boat, for example.


Against a car maybe. Basically won't a car just damage the baggage hold? However, higher up there doesn't seem to be much between the shell and the passenger. Most car doors have some sort of bracing inside to partially absorb a side collision.

However, I wouldn't say the "duck boat" doesn't have its issues. It doesn't have seat belts, and several of the passengers were severely injured when they were tossed out of the vehicle. At the very least doesn't a J4500 come equipped with seat belts? Still - I don't know if it would have helped in this case.


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## CHamilton

State suspends Ride the Ducks operations pending probe


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## Palmetto

Just by way of info: duckboats exist in Boston, too. You go into the Charles River on them somewhere near North Station IINM.


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## BCL

Palmetto said:


> Just by way of info: duckboats exist in Boston, too. You go into the Charles River on them somewhere near North Station IINM.


Two operators, but neither is associated with Ride the Ducks. One is Boston Duck Tours and the other is Super Duck Tours. The former claims that their entire fleet are replicas except for one original used for special events or parades. Don't know about the other operator.


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## GG-1

Aloha

Before I left in 2010 Oahu had a Duck tour


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## chakk

Rode the Seattle Duck last month. Did not take note of our vehicle number, so can't say if our Duck was the one involved in the crash a month later. I did notice that they are very strong (built like a tank) and have very little leg room between seats. So, it would seem to me that it would be pretty hard for passengers in the Duck to go flying if involved in a collision.


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## CHamilton

UTC to release recommendations on Ride the Ducks vehicles


> SEATTLE — The state of Washington Utilities and Transportation Commission will release its recommendations Tuesday afternoon about “Ride the Ducks” tour vehicles....
> The soon-to be-released report will make recommendations on whether ducks can resume operations, and if so, what changes need to be made.
> The National Transportation Safety Board will determine the cause, and Tuesday’s news briefing will not speculate on it.


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## CHamilton

Investigation finds 442 safety violations of Ride The Ducks


> The Washington state Utilities and Transportation Commission has released the results of its investigation into Ride The Ducks following September's deadly crash on the Aurora Avenue Bridge.


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## Just-Thinking-51

So in short the only thing that they could get the operator on was small stuff. Random drug testing program, and a expired/invalid driver.

Ok another everyone must be spotless report. No smoking gun.

We're still left with the should ex-military vehicles be allow on the street, and why are buses not built better to survive a accident.


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## CHamilton

City of Seattle wants 'Ride the Ducks' operation sidelined


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## CHamilton

More lawsuits filed against Seattle's Ride the Ducks


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## CHamilton

Ride the Ducks agrees to proposed settlement with state


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## fairviewroad

Another crash today, though this was appears to be far less serious.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Ride-the-Ducks-vehice-hits-car-near-Seattle-Center-7221163.php

Close-up photo:

https://twitter.com/Crosscut/status/715663493110886400


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## CHamilton

No one was injured, luckily.

Ride the Ducks vehicle crashes in Lower Queen Anne; authorities investigating


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## CHamilton

Ride the Ducks crash lawsuits stacking up


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## CHamilton

In wake of Seattle Ride the Ducks crash, Legislature updates wrongful death law
https://www.king5.com/article/news/...-law/281-e0ed6077-6819-41fd-a113-6b83ddf01fa6


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