# Track Work At Saint Paul Union Depot....



## dabrilloman (Jul 29, 2013)

Took a walk through St, Paul Union Depot on July 20 and got a couple of photos of the work on the track connections. Looks promising for service to begin later this year.


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## montana mike (Jul 29, 2013)

It has looked "almost ready" for the past several months each time I go by on the EB! I hope they will be able to finish this year, but my gut feeling says some time in 2014. It just seems to be taking forever!!!!!!!


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## tonys96 (Jul 29, 2013)

Darned shame I won't get to see the new (old) station in use next month.


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## Nathanael (Jul 30, 2013)

dabrilloman said:


> Took a walk through St, Paul Union Depot on July 20 and got a couple of photos of the work on the track connections. Looks promising for service to begin later this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YAY. Thanks for the photos, although I can't see them without registering.

I've actually been putting off a trip to Minnesota until Amtrak moves into SPUD. I plan to go the first summer after Amtrak is there.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 1, 2013)

Looking at the second photo and wondering about the operational consequences of exactly where the station track will tie in.

There's enough crossties stacked up in the photo for about 400 feet of track (8 bundles of 25 plus maybe 30 ties).

There's 3 places where the connection could be.

Just short of the red dwarf and the "ROBERT STREET" sign before the UP turnout to the lift bridge - the green grassy turnout from the near track towards the left in the photo. Believe this is UP track.

In this case - would both the UP and the CP dispatchers be involved for every westward departure and eastward arrival?

Or - connecting into the short stretch between that turnout and its connection with CP main track #1 just under the Robert Street bridge? What dispatcher(s) controls that?

Or- with a longer stretch of new track - directly to CP main track #1 just beyond the Robert Street bridge - which would need more new track but would likely simplify the dispatching?

How much signal work to do for any of these options?

Time will tell.

And as for the east end connection -- almost impossible to get good photos without trespassing - or using an impossibly fast long lens from the bluff or the Kellogg bridge.


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## RRUserious (Aug 1, 2013)

In wet years, that's a flooding area. Anyone know the precautions against a flooding interruption?


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## TraneMan (Aug 1, 2013)

I've never heard of water going up that far there.. The station is up a way from the water level.


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## Rail Freak (Aug 1, 2013)

Showing my ignorance once again, but why wood ties opposed to concrete?


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## dabrilloman (Aug 1, 2013)

About the flooding...the track level is way above any possible flooding...if it did ever get there I would be building myself an Ark! The new Amtrak ticketing office could possibly be in trouble if there were a record flood though. Below is a picture of Kellogg St. in the spring flood of 1966. The new ticket office would directly to the right in the photo. The water here is about 1-2 feet deep. I was 6 years old when that happened. Although there have been many floods since, they have been very good at keeping the river out of this area since as far as I know.


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## TraneMan (Aug 2, 2013)

Rail Freak said:


> Showing my ignorance once again, but why wood ties opposed to concrete?


I'm guessing it's cheaper, and also it's a slow speed going into the station, so ride smoothness isn't an issue.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 2, 2013)

According to an official report (citation below)- in 1965 (an exceptional flood indeed) the Union Depot tracks were closed for 2 weeks. The station area itself is unlikely to be flooded.
But the real problem is the connection to the main tracks at the low point east of the Union Depot where the new station tracks will tie in to the main tracks "down in the swamp" at the southeast corner of the big wye near Division Street switch.
In this photo (1965 again) you see the signal bridge at West Hoffman with the (now CP, then Milwaukee Road) tracks barely under water - BUT - the area to the right of those visible tracks and in the distance -- that is where the new station track will have to join the the BN main (also underwater in this photo).
It doesn't take a record flood to put this area under water. The whole area to the right in the mid-distance in the photo is the mouth of a multi mile long valley that drains many square miles to the north. Before the railroads came there was a seasonally significant stream there that sometimes flooded in the spring or with unusually heavy rainfall.
Now, the outlet for this natural drainage is blocked by the built-up CP mains, and Shepard Road.
Even absent big flooding on the Mississippi - this low spot gets mobile pumping units to move the water over the riverfront tracks and dump the built-up water into the Mississippi. Seen it many times in the spring.

If there was only some way that the station tracks could connect to the CP main on the east end *without *going down into the swamp.


```
[Floods of March-May 1965 in the upper Mississippi River Basin (Anderson & Burmeister GEOLOGICAL SURVEY WATER-SUPPLYPAPER 1850-A) page A17]
```


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## RRUserious (Aug 2, 2013)

Shepard road gets covered with water frequently. By the way, when I took the Empire Builder to Chicago, it had to go on the east side of the Mississippi due to flooding on the west side. As I rode along, I could see the water was only a couple feet away from being over the tracks we were on. And of course floods in Minot shut the whole thing down for weeks. I don't know how these tracks got built on the level where they were, but the increased water in earth's atmosphere is going to cause schedule problems a lot in the future. Warm oceans don't mix well with ground transport.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 3, 2013)

Getting off-topic - but hey happens all the time.

The tracks got built near rivers (and sometimes sea shores) because when the railroads were built all the population centers were near rivers or seaports (mostly they still are) - back then water transport was the mainspring of cities - and the railroads could beat riverboats or coastal sailboats hands down by doing 20mph. Hey - the "water level route" beat out the Erie Canal by a long long shot. Land in the flood plain was cheap. No serious grades or tunnels needed.

The likes of J.J. Hill went head-to-head with the steamboats, and won by a long shot.

Now, most of the lines that follow the Mississippi (and many other rivers) get flooded out from time to time.

Look at the thread about Empire Builder delays -- the Red River of the North and the Souris flood every few years, and have for generations. There - in the old Lake Agassiz basin the land is so flat that the floods spread out for miles and miles. Build the tracks a few feet higher every decade or so seems to be the only practical option.

One of my earliest memories of train travel was running down the east bank of the Mississippi on some Zephyr - it had a dome car - it seemed like we were running over the water - couldn't see the railbed or the bridges we were running on - maybe it was during the 1952 flood? Water water everywhere.


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## Nathanael (Aug 3, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> Looking at the second photo and wondering about the operational consequences of exactly where the station track will tie in.


I found some other photos, and of course I didn't bookmark them.
It seems clear to me from the grading work which is going on, which runs a long way west of the Robert St. Bridge, that the station approach track will run for a long distance, under the Robert Street bridge (so there will be three tracks in parallel running under the Robert Street bridge), and connect into the CP mainline well past the point where UP goes south across its bridge. So UP dispatcher will not be involved with Amtrak movements. I could be wrong -- for all I know they're doing that grading work and then planning to not lay rail on it (!?!) but that would be weird.

(Of course, they'd need additional work if they ever wanted to run trains from SPUD down UP to Northfield, but that seems like it won't happen for decades if ever, so whatever.)

The tracks in this area are all elevated. It would require a monumental flood to flood this section out. The Empire Builder tracks are extremely flood-prone *east* of Union Depot (as others have noted), and also quite flood-prone in various spots north of Minneapolis, so they'll still get flooded, but the actual trackage from Union Depot to Midway is pretty safe, barring a flood of 1965 size. (And some effort has been made in the last 40 years to detain floodwaters to reduce the likelihood of that.)

Regarding the more problematic trackage east of Union Depot, the long-term Ramsey County / regional freight transportation plan is:

- build a flyover of the Third Street Wye for passenger trains, which would start from the elevated Union Station trackage, and remain above flood level until it "landed" on the other side of the interlocking. The freight yards would still be flooded out in a major flood, but the passenger trains would just fly right over them....

- relocate the mainline trackage between St. Paul and the Mississippi River bridge at Hastings to the more inland of the two routes, which doesn't eliminate flood risk entirely (the bridge at Hastings can still flood pretty easily), but does reduce it a lot.

So Ramsey County has been thinking about this. I like Minnesota's tradition of good government.


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## Nathanael (Aug 3, 2013)

The flyover plan is really intended to avoid the congestion at the Third St. Wye -- this was explained in the regional rail plan. BNSF doesn't want more passenger trains across the Wye. It's intended to be for passenger trains only so that it can be made lighter weight. The flood avoidance is a side benefit.

Of course the flyover is unfunded, and actually it's something like "stage 5" in a 5-stage plan for reconfiguring the tracks around the Third St. Wye and the nearby yards. But at least there's a plan.


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## RRUserious (Aug 3, 2013)

When the depot starts full service, what exactly will it serve? Will the trains now go through downtown? And is the Transfer Road station open for some years to come?


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## zephyr17 (Aug 4, 2013)

My understanding is that train will follow its current route on the Minnesota Commercial between the CP and BNSF and the short-haul coach will still be cut off there at Midway yard, but it won't be a passenger stop.

Seems a waste because that is a _slowwww_ way to go, when from St. Paul Union Station, they ought to be able to get back out on the BNSF main (Staples sub?) directly and that is a much faster route.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 4, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> When the depot starts full service, what exactly will it serve? Will the trains now go through downtown? And is the Transfer Road station open for some years to come?


Will serve Amtrak 7 and 8. And the Jefferson Lines buses to Duluth and Rochester and such (already stop there) And the casino buses that already stop there. And the local light rail when it starts. And a few local transit buses that already terminate there including express service to the airport.

The Amtrak trains have been going through downtown Saint Paul for the last 40 years (don't ask about the many railroads that stopped there before 1971) . Just didn't have a place to stop there. So I don't understand your question "Will the trains now go through downtown?" -- They always have and will continue.

The old Transfer Road station -- it seems -- will be used for PV and cleaning the seasonal CHI-MSP coach and for other technical work. Won't be a station stop


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## NW cannonball (Aug 4, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> My understanding is that train will follow its current route on the Minnesota Commercial between the CP and BNSF and the short-haul coach will still be cut off there at Midway yard, but it won't be a passenger stop.
> Seems a waste because that is a _slowwww_ way to go, when from St. Paul Union Station, they ought to be able to get back out on the BNSF main (Staples sub?) directly and that is a much faster route.


Don't think a backup move into the congested wye would save time. The short line is almost always clear - the slow time through the MNNR yard is small. (about 12 minutes for the 2 miles)

Actually the "Short Line" is shorter and likely faster than any of the BNSF mains -- and no need to back up into the overloaded wye in the swamp.

Yes, if a westbound clears through Hoffman and keeps going at track speed to Northtown -- yeah, that's faster than the Short Line. But with the station stop -- not.

Backup onto the main -- loses.


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## Nathanael (Aug 4, 2013)

In the future, quite likely the easiest way to speed up the Empire Builder would be to improve the Short Line and Minnesota Commercial tracks. The "Short Line" is the shortest route, and avoids backup moves -- the only problem with it is that the speed limit on the track has been allowed to go down to very low levels.

The cost of upgrading the track & signal along this route, to allow, say, 60 mph (class 4 track) would probably be a lot less than any other speed improvement which could be made for the entire Empire Builder route. Even upgrading it all to class 3 track (30 mph) would be a great help, and has to be relatively cheap.

The current 10 mph speed limit through the yard *has* to be something which could be addressed. (Of course eliminating the stop at Midway would require moving servicing to St. Paul Union Depot, but there is room for that.) You could cut ten minutes, maybe twenty off the schedule.

Someone would have to pay to maintain the higher speeds. But it's not that long a piece of track.


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## RRUserious (Aug 4, 2013)

It's really all about the Montana-North Dakota stretch. I don't frankly expect that to be solved. Riders on that stretch just have to adjust or choose another way of travel. I've often thought that a personal car is the way to go especially with cruise control. I once drove my wife and mother across that stretch in my Buick Regal on cruise control. It was a very comfortable drive. And I got 25 mpg in that giant car. You can get on the highway, set the cruise to 55 and just go and go for hours. Your hands on the wheel, eyes on the road ahead, then talk, sing to your music source, what ever amuses you since your gas pedal leg is totally relaxed. The ride is tons smoother than Amtrak on those crappy rails they use. Planes are much, much faster, naturally, and if scenery is of zero importance, a plane ticket is probably cheaper than anything else you can buy..


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## TraneMan (Aug 8, 2013)

No way I could be in a car going across ND/MT... You can't move around unless you stop for gas/bathroom.. You don't meet new people, and visit a bunch of other passengers.


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## RRUserious (Aug 9, 2013)

Some of the benefits of a train are lost, true. But you also don't sit for an indefinite time wondering when the freight train will clear the track so you can continue. Everything is a tradeoff.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 9, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> Some of the benefits of a train are lost, true. But you also don't sit for an indefinite time wondering when the freight train will clear the track so you can continue. Everything is a tradeoff.


I'd rather be sitting on a siding waiting for a freight train rather than sitting in a car stuck in the ditch on an icy night, waiting for the Highway Patrol.

I have traveled along the Hi Line for more than 40 years, mostly between Shelby and the Twin Cities. Any way you look at it, if you're on that route, you're going to be sitting an indefinite time. I'd rather be reading in my sleeping compartment than driving a 2-lane highway filled by oil trucks, morbidly counting the crosses Montana puts up to mark fatal accident locations. I'd be perfectly happy never to drive US 2 again. YMMV.


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## RRUserious (Aug 9, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the benefits of a train are lost, true. But you also don't sit for an indefinite time wondering when the freight train will clear the track so you can continue. Everything is a tradeoff.
> ...


I don't factor that in because I've never come close to anything like that. I wonder what are the reasons it happens to drivers crossing North Dakota. And just to be clear, I've driven both ways many times. I tend to do it on cruise control. The wide open spaces are not an invitation to me to "open her up". Fuel costs matter to me.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 12, 2013)

Progress on this project seems to be slow in the last 3 weeks since OP.

Viewed from the Wabasha bridge this evening seems like no change on the west end near and under the Robert Street bridge.

To actually see what is happening -- for me that is a 5 hour project -

Start at Wabasha bridge view track work from there to Robert Street. Walk to Robert Street and view work from there. Walk to SPUD, view from elevated concourse east and west. Go down to track level

and walk the whole public-accessible area. Walk over to Kellogg and take photos from the Kellogg bridge (it shakes, it wiggles). At the high end of Kellogg at Mounds keep walking and taking pictures. Take more pix from Mounds Park. Go back and take Commercial Street down into the swamp and the wildlife preserve. Take more photos from ground level there (*under *the big wye.) Back to Jackson, cross Warner Road, walk a mile on the public trail, cross Warner defying traffic to get to the Warner Road ROW that looks down on the big wye in the swamp. Walk up and down the rough public ground on the north side of Warner Road and take more pix.

I don't have time the next few weeks to do this. Any volunteers?

Hope, but can't confirm, that the project is progressing. Maybe SPUD will be connected next spring in time for the floods? Who can say.

About the Short Line from SPUD to the Midway -- it isn't seriously slow (but could get slower now that the Ford plant is closed) - but the stretch through the Minnesota Commercial yard to connect to the BNSF is painfully slow.


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## guest (Aug 12, 2013)

It's great that Amtrak will be moving into spud, but with the timekeeping of number 8 right now into MSP this train is worthless for eastbound connections or anyone who wants to get to Chicago on time. If Minnesota ever funds a MSP-CHI day train at least it could leave on time.


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## RRUserious (Aug 12, 2013)

I suppose the highspeed route is dead meat now. Boehner and Ryan will derail it.


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

Walker derailed it. If he is thrown out it might come back. If Iowa gets passenger-friendly administration an Iowa route might materialize instead.

For better or worse all expansion is going to be driven by the whims of state legislatures for many years into the future. The federal government is badly broken, which appears to have been the goal of some of the elected officials who campaigned on "anti-government" platforms.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Walker derailed it. If he is thrown out it might come back. If Iowa gets passenger-friendly administration an Iowa route might materialize instead.
> For better or worse all expansion is going to be driven by the whims of state legislatures for many years into the future. The federal government is badly broken, which appears to have been the goal of some of the elected officials who campaigned on "anti-government" platforms.


We are at a point where government isn't the solution, it is the problem. "Anti-government" platforms didn't break the Federal government - expanding beyond its Constitutionally-enumerated and intentionally-limited powers broke it. The bigger the government grows, the smaller the citizen shrinks.


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## RRUserious (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, I can see this thread is now down the rabbit hole.


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## montana mike (Aug 13, 2013)

Meanwhile the project appears to be sitting there and we just wait to see what happens.......................................I remember, reading in the MSP newspaper during one of my many trips on the EB one morning that the newly refurbished St. paul station would hopefully be ready for Amtrak passengers around Christmas--of 2012!!!!! Now we are hoping it "may" be some time in 2014. Arrrrrrgh.


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## RRUserious (Aug 13, 2013)

Today's paper says the depot is creating a memorial for all the service people who left for war from there and never returned alive. Another reason for me to get down there sometime soon.


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## bgiaquin (Aug 14, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> In the future, quite likely the easiest way to speed up the Empire Builder would be to improve the Short Line and Minnesota Commercial tracks. The "Short Line" is the shortest route, and avoids backup moves -- the only problem with it is that the speed limit on the track has been allowed to go down to very low levels.
> The cost of upgrading the track & signal along this route, to allow, say, 60 mph (class 4 track) would probably be a lot less than any other speed improvement which could be made for the entire Empire Builder route. Even upgrading it all to class 3 track (30 mph) would be a great help, and has to be relatively cheap.
> 
> The current 10 mph speed limit through the yard *has* to be something which could be addressed. (Of course eliminating the stop at Midway would require moving servicing to St. Paul Union Depot, but there is room for that.) You could cut ten minutes, maybe twenty off the schedule.
> ...


From my years of riding through St. Paul, the CP Merriam Sub seems to be in okay shape: 30-35 mph, plus the ride is pretty smooth. The problem is MN Commercial trackage: like you said, 10-15 mph, the ride is just a little bumpy plus there are some tight curves. Drop in some signals and welded rail on the MN Comm. and everything will be dandy. About the servicing at SPUD, no problem except there needs to be an engine to switch the 807/808 car off and on the end of the train.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 27, 2013)

I've seen exactly zero progress since the OP posted -- a visible way to go on the west end with only 200 km to go , and no clue on the east end.

Suspect that maybe after the grain harvest, and hopefully before cold cold winter, a bit more might be done. But the tie-in isn't overdue until -- sometime in 2014.


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## jamesontheroad (Aug 27, 2013)

Could anyone provide a link (or an image) to a map of the route of Amtrak #7 & 8 through St. Paul? I only know the city vaguely, and I've never ridden the Empire Builder, so I can't work out the route. Thanks!


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## Nathanael (Aug 30, 2013)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> Could anyone provide a link (or an image) to a map of the route of Amtrak #7 & 8 through St. Paul? I only know the city vaguely, and I've never ridden the Empire Builder, so I can't work out the route. Thanks!


Hmm.

Start with this:

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/ofrw/maps/MetroRailMap.pdf

You can probably trace these routes on Google Maps if you zoom in far enough.

Starting from the west, the Empire Builder runs on the northern of the two BNSF lines (in green on the state rail map), the one which goes through Big Lake. This is the same route which Northstar takes. In the Twin Cities, you'll notice that the green lines merge, then split into two routes, and there's a branch which heads west across the river. Northstar takes the branch to get o Minneapolis. The Empire Builder doesn't; it can follow either of the green lines, to the black line in the middle, which is marked MNNR for Minnesota Commercial. The current "Midway" Amtrak station is located on that very short section. Then the Empire Builder continues on the CP/SOO (red) line, eastwards, past St. Paul Union Depot, through Hastings and onward on CP to Chicago.

The state rail map is a little misleading on the east end. East of Union Depot there are CP and BNSF lines right next to each other (actually operated jointly and dispatched by BNSF). Immediately next to Union Depot there are UP and CP lines right next to each other.

I hope this is sufficient to allow you to trace the route on Google maps. I am not able to make a custom Google map myself.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 30, 2013)

Sometimes I think the folks who did the planning of the St. Paul Union Depot restoration watched "Field of Dreams" one too many times.

"If you build it, tracks will come."


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## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Sometimes I think the folks who did the planning of the St. Paul Union Depot restoration watched "Field of Dreams" one too many times.
> "If you build it, tracks will come."


Now -- "If you build it" -- maybe tracks will come

When, a hundred + years ago the ROW's were put in place, and fought for, and legislatures bribed, it was true that "if you build it --- "

That's part of the reason why even now Saint Paul, and most river cities, have difficult problems with riverfront development - complex right-of-way - abandoned polluting superfund sites.

When J J Hill and the like did their thing over a hundred years ago - they built -- people moved in -- they made their billions (current dollars) -- but the aftermath is still with us -- .


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## Nathanael (Aug 31, 2013)

Anyone got up-to-date photos? I would expect that some more work would have been done by now, but I can't find any reports on the web.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2013)

I'll eventually figure out how and where to post photos, but as of 8 days ago, on the west end, it looks like Dabrilloman's pictures. Except the Cat is gone. The west end switch in the photo is there, but no switch machine and no switch heater. And no more rail laid west of that switch.

Same piles of ties, same rail on the ground waiting for -. Maybe another layer of aggregate track base laid west from the switch under the Robert Street bridge. No sign of signal work on the west end.

As for the east end - as I've said before - it's hard to get pictures there - the work is much more interesting but -- maybe a real long lens from the Wabasha bridge - or take the public trail along Warner Road, cross Warner to the north side, and wade through the steep weeds for a view from the south across the CP mains? Or hire a helicopter?


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## bgiaquin (Aug 31, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Anyone got up-to-date photos? I would expect that some more work would have been done by now, but I can't find any reports on the web.


I rode by on the EB and they are now now working on the signals.


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## NW cannonball (Sep 7, 2013)

Took a walk around the periphery.

West end - there is a turnout being (pre)constructed on the ground near the tracks under the Robert Street bridge - and it's more than half done - from the (west end) points eastward to but not yet including the frog. There's also blaze orange marker paint on the ground hear CP Main #1 to show where it will be fitted into the main - whenever that happens.

East end - didn't see area near east end of station tracks (is construction zone for new LaFayette bridge, attempt to cross Warner Road from south to north at high point no good late afternoon traffic).

Farther East end near Division Street - yes - new signal bridge installed not yet in service at East Division Street - also a probable preconstructed turnout waiting on the ground near there.

One more turnout seemed ready to install, it was laying under the Kellogg Bridge near the BN mains.

Got some photos but still face the learning curve on cropping and posting - am checking the photography forum here.

My feet hurt. Next time I won't walk all the way from Hoffman to US 61 and around Mounds Park and back down Kellog.


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## Nathanael (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks for the updates. I appreciate them. It sounds like there will be a turnout for direct entry from the station to the BNSF St. Paul Subdivision (presumably only for use during detours).

The track arrangement for trains coming from the south into the station should be interesting to see. I would expect it to require several crossovers (or diamonds, but crossovers are preferred these days).


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## NW cannonball (Sep 18, 2013)

Naah - no new crossovers or diamonds -- all that connecting will happen as it does now in the big Hoffman interlocking east of the station and east of the wye.

Hoffman has on the east the two joint CP & BNSF mains from Saint Croix Junction near Hastings - the two CP mains that go past the station and on to the Short Line and the UP line to KC -- and the two BNSF mains that turn north and split into the old GN and major old NP north of the wye. And some UP track rights from their Pig's Eye yard - and connects to the CP(ex Milwaukee) hump yard and the BN Bluff yard. The heart of the Hoffman is a 5-track any-to-any multi-crossover. Very busy. Many ins and outs. Hoffman is the congested interlocking that the freight lines want finanicial help for -- including that possible passenger flyover.

But -- on the east end connection to SPUD -- looks like they will be using the hand-operated switch at Division street that connects the UP Spine to trackage rights on BN main 2.

The BN new signal bridge near there has nothing to do with the SPUD connection -- it only controls BN main 1 and the lead to the BN Bluff yard.

There may be an other connection to BN main 2 from the UP wye for westbound backing move from SPUD.

So - on the east end SPUD will connect via a hand-throw at Division Street from the UP to the BN -- probably.


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## F40PH203 (Sep 19, 2013)

The cantilever signal that is replacing the old signal bridge at Division Street, is actually being removed and replaced with a 3 track signal bridge. When it was installed, the SPUD project wasn't considered, and thus will be removed before being cutover. A 2 track cantilever signal will be installed on the east end of the platforms. The manual throw switch connecting the UP to the BNSF will be powered. That's about the extent of the work going on with signals on the east side.


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## TraneMan (Sep 19, 2013)

Jebr and I stopped at the SPUD, and saw the worker working there, and they were not moving very much!


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## Nathanael (Sep 19, 2013)

Buuuut... the depot tracks currently don't connect to the UP track on the east side. As of the last photo I saw, it doesn't, anyway.

And the point where the two Amtrak platform roads are supposed to merge is only 400 feet from the point where the wye separates into north and south legs.

I guess there will be a switch immediately west of the UP wye, leading to the depot tracks? Because there wasn't one there before. This is the key switch. Does anyone have a vantage point where they can see it? I guess the Lafayette Blvd. construction makes it rather hard to see this location.

So the train will come off the depot track, switch onto UP, then immediately switch to the south leg of the wye, then switch into BNSF Main 2 going south (on the third of five tracks), and then finally switch to the correct track?

I suppose the switch from the south leg of the wye onto BNSF is the one which you are referring to as "hand-thrown" which is now being powered?

Anyway, if I count correctly, a train coming out of St. Paul Union Depot to the east must immediately traverse at least four switches just to get onto the BNSF Main:

(1) switch joining the two platform tracks

(2) switch connecting the platform tracks to UP

(3) switch leading to the south leg of the wye

(4) switch leading to the BNSF main

There might even be a fifth switch (1.5) if the platform tracks have an alternative path to the northeast, one other than merging into UP (whether directed towards the St. Paul sub, or merely a parking track or headshunt).

Whew. The next question is who's going to dispatch all of this. It would really be best if UP wasn't involved in the dispatching it at all, so I hope it isn't.


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## NW cannonball (Sep 20, 2013)

F40PH203 said:


> The cantilever signal that is replacing the old signal bridge at Division Street, is actually being removed and replaced with a 3 track signal bridge. When it was installed, the SPUD project wasn't considered, and thus will be removed before being cutover. A 2 track cantilever signal will be installed on the east end of the platforms. The manual throw switch connecting the UP to the BNSF will be powered. That's about the extent of the work going on with signals on the east side.


Good to know that - so the new signals at Division will be replaced with a new 3-track signal that controls the bluff lead and both BNSF mains - now including the (powered) UP turnout at Division that leads to SPUD.

The (old)new signal cantilever had two heads per track (vs the old bridge one light per track) - assume the new one will have 2 heads each for all 3 tracks.

Yup - there's a switch (installed, with heater) where the two station tracks join/split

(1.5) and a turnout to the northeast tail track (for storage?)

(2-4) yes -- at least the last connection onto the BNSF main looks like it will be powered from what Guest_F40PH203 posted.

Progress on (2-4) is very hard to observe -- without trespassing and/or having heavy things fall on your head. Near the construction zone where there are pedestrian pathways, there are also signs "LOOK UP AND LIVE" - saw workers (not directly overhead) pounding (bolts-rivets-pins) into the gussets on the new bridge -- if a bolt fell on my head -- maybe a hard hat might help. If the man dropped the 8-pound sledge- not good. If the gusset fell - splat! The new Lafayette bridge will have pedestrian walkways - unlike the current bridge.

But the west end looks almost ready to go -- except for signal work.

Dispatching -- does anyone have a clue how that will work?

<edit> and nobody has a clue about the timeline to completion


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## Ispolkom (Sep 22, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> <edit> and nobody has a clue about the timeline to completion


Me,I'm hoping for 2015. Call me an optimist.


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## Nathanael (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info.


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## Ispolkom (Sep 27, 2013)

The last two days there has been guys working on the west end of SPUD, so things are progressing, no matter how slowly.


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## dabrilloman (Oct 2, 2013)

Here are a few more pictures I took last Sunday afternoon (9-29). There has been some progress, but not a lot. You can see the progress on the west end OK, but I couldn't get near the east end. It's looking more like 2014 for the move. Looking forward to comments from those of you who are more knowledgable than I about the track connections and such and what you might be able to see from the pics.


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## Notelvis (Oct 2, 2013)

dabrilloman, your photos look like model railroading in 1:1 scale! Thanks for posting them.

On the west end, is that lead track already tied in to the mainline out of sight under the bridge and around the curve?

As for the east end, I've stared at Google Earth for more minutes than I care to admit and cannot figure how things are going to tie in there (what with that wye being where it is), much less contemplate signalling.


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## dlagrua (Oct 2, 2013)

The scheduled time for St Paul Union Station completion was supposed to be Nov 2013. That probably won't happen so my guess is March 2014.


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## montana mike (Oct 2, 2013)

Wasn't the original completion time December 2012? I remember seeing posters in MSP with that date as a "target" on several of my trips in the Fall of 2012.


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## bgiaquin (Oct 2, 2013)

dlagrua said:


> The scheduled time for St Paul Union Station completion was supposed to be Nov 2013. That probably won't happen so my guess is March 2014.


I have hope for December 2013. I think they can do it if they pick up the pace.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 2, 2013)

I wasn't aware that they were planning to connect both ends, as I thought the plan was to have stub-end tracks with the trains backing in/out. Run-through operation would certainly be preferable.

As for the switchover date, I remember hearing that there was a mid-January 2013 date posted at Midway Station this past summer. Not sure if that is still the goal. I suspect they will shoot for a low-traffic time to work out the kinks, which would suggest something in the Jan-April time frame.


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## bgiaquin (Oct 2, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> I wasn't aware that they were planning to connect both ends, as I thought the plan was to have stub-end tracks with the trains backing in/out. Run-through operation would certainly be preferable.
> 
> As for the switchover date, I remember hearing that there was a mid-January 2013 date posted at Midway Station this past summer. Not sure if that is still the goal. I suspect they will shoot for a low-traffic time to work out the kinks, which would suggest something in the Jan-April time frame.


I think you mean January 2014. Yes that is still the goal.


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## Ispolkom (Oct 2, 2013)

montana mike said:


> Wasn't the original completion time December 2012? I remember seeing posters in MSP with that date as a "target" on several of my trips in the Fall of 2012.


Union Depot did actually open in December of last year. The rail connection wasn't finished (or actually started), though. Not Ramsey County's finest moment. If Amtrak moves to Union Depot next year, I'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## Nathanael (Oct 2, 2013)

Once the trackbed and switches are in place, signalling can actually go remarkably quickly.

I can believe January 2014.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 4, 2013)

Notelvis said:


> dabrilloman, your photos look like model railroading in 1:1 scale! Thanks for posting them.
> 
> On the west end, is that lead track already tied in to the mainline out of sight under the bridge and around the curve?
> 
> As for the east end, I've stared at Google Earth for more minutes than I care to admit and cannot figure how things are going to tie in there (what with that wye being where it is), much less contemplate signalling.


No, the west end tie-in to the CP Main hasn't happened, it will happen, when it happens, when the CP allows it to happen -- signal work not done yet -- and when it happens it will be a 2-5 hour job because it affects the CP's main - those railroads - messing with any main-line they really want to minimize the down-time

dabrilloman's photos show the prefab turnout under the Wabasha bridge has been extended past the frog and looks ready to cut in to the CP main on the west end. When? no se. And some rail laid between the depot and the CP main.

But now we see another prefab turnout on the ground closer to the station tracks on the west end -- what for - no clue.

It becomes clear to me that there is other track work "down in the swamp" that may or may not be related to the station connection. What this work is, what it does, don't know -expect BNSF (contractor for station connection) might use part of their station-connection contract with some of own funds to improve the bottleneck down in the swamp.

But the east end from the station tracks to the likely connection to the BN main at Division Street is still almost impossible to view.

Should I put on my fluorescent lime-green vest and a rented hard-hat and get down there to see what's happening? Maybe.

Anyhow, looks to me like the east-end station track will use the UP (say that because UP uses it, no idea who owns that south leg of the wye) and connect to the BN main 2 at Division Street. There's more prefab turnouts than I can account for laying around east of SPUD -- no idea where they all will go.

Expect clarity before end November


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## dabrilloman (Oct 4, 2013)

I crossed the Laffayette Bridge today (Oct 4) at about 1140 AM and could see some activity in the area of the west connection. I will head down to the Union Depot Sunday to see if anything has changed. I will have my camera with me! I also might head up to Mounds Park with some binoculars to see what I can see from the bluff on the east end.


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## mwmnp (Oct 4, 2013)

UP _controls_ the south leg of the wye east of the station, but ownership is actually split between UP, CP, and BNSF. The joint ownership of this track as well as the main closest to the new platforms dates back to when SPUD was established and predecessors of these three railroads became joint owners of the track around the depot.

I have attached two site plans of the track and street layout around the refurbished depot. These depictions were made back in 2010, so they're likely not the most recent, but I don't know how many people have seen them.

St. Paul Union Depot Site Plan.pdf

Union Depot Track Plan.pdf


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## NW cannonball (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks for the diagram, wherever it came from it makes the layout clear for all of us who are concerned about progress on the project.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 4, 2013)

From the photos, it looks like they may have changed the plan to move the UP-CP crossover, choosing instead to tie in the SPUD track farther west on the CP main. Hard to say for sure though.

The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?

Mark


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## mwmnp (Oct 4, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> Thanks for the diagram, wherever it came from it makes the layout clear for all of us who are concerned about progress on the project.


Be sure to check out the second diagram, too. I found that after my original post and added it while you were writing your post. The best thing about this diagram is that it clarifies that the trackage closest to the depot is still jointly owned by BNSF/CP/UP (whose predecessors were instrumental in developing SPUD) but controlled and maintained today by UP. As a result, a UP dispatcher will have to be involved when the Empire Builder enters and exits the station from the east end.

Speaking of dispatching, the latest I heard is that four dispatchers will be involved:


CP Minnesota Dispatcher on the west end
UP Dispatcher or UP South St. Paul Yardmaster on the east end and on all BNSF/CP/UP track adjacent to the platforms (as the power switches on these tracks will be new, It's uncertain who specifically on the UP will be involved; entry to and exit from the joint SPUD track has traditionally been controlled by the BNSF and CP dispatchers, and the UP has considered the tracks yard limits) 
BNSF East Hump Dispatcher on the southeast portion of the wye east of the station, specifically where the switch connects the south leg of the wye to BNSF/CP Main 2
The St. Paul Stationmaster or an Amtrak Dispatcher will be responsible for the switches on the platform tracks at the depot as well as determining which platform will be used
_*Edit: See post below about new dispatching plan*_


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## mwmnp (Oct 4, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?


Presumably, yes. All of the documents I have seen show this track ending east of the station without connecting to any other tracks.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 4, 2013)

mwmnp said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?
> ...


Yes, the tail track - storage track - that runs east curving north from the station - past points 2 and 4 and inside the "west leg" in the diagram - that is already in place.

Great diagrams - makes it all so clear - but not, unfortunately simple - complicated dispatching -- the "south leg" on the diagram has been a 2-3 UP train per day restricted speed hand-throw thru to the Division Street manual switch -- looks like that will be the way the EB gets to SPUD. Hoping track , switch and signals all being upgraded -- like I've said many times it is all "down in the swamp". Hoping upgrades work well for trains 7,8. We'll see how it all works out.


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## mwmnp (Oct 4, 2013)

Doing some more investigation, possibly all of the information one could ever want about this project is available within the past agendas of the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority, accessible from this website.

Perhaps most significant over the past year is the document here, a 91-page report outlining all of the construction and coordination required of this project. This document pertains to all three of the Class I railroads involved and was current as of last December, though a revised one for UP was approved in June, and is available here. Construction agreements with each of the involved railroads are also posted and available for viewing. The one for BNSF is here, the one for CP is here, and the one for UP is here.

One of the more significant developments these documents indicate is that two of the four dispatchers originally thought to be needed to get the Empire Builder through the station appear to have been removed from the picture. The current plan, as detailed on pages 18 and 19 of the 91-page report and elsewhere, is to have CP dispatch the west end and have BNSF essentially dispatch the rest. A UP dispatcher should not need to be involved with Amtrak movements, and neither will a stationmaster or Amtrak dispatcher if BNSF instead controls the platform tracks and switches.

Anybody with an interest in this project really *must* check out these documents.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 4, 2013)

Hey thanks a few hundred times -- I tried to find those documents and failed first few tries and gave up. Thanks for finding and posting the nitty gritty really truly documents -- it makes it all so real.

Oh, and double thanks again.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 6, 2013)

Interesting to see that a new power switch costs around $170,000.


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## guest (Oct 7, 2013)

It will be interesting to see who gets into SPUD first, Amtrak of Central corridor light rail.


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## Ispolkom (Oct 7, 2013)

They were working on the UP track on Friday night at 11:30 pm when we went by on #7.


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## Nathanael (Oct 9, 2013)

mwmnp said:


> Perhaps most significant over the past year is the document here, a 91-page report outlining all of the construction and coordination required of this project. This document pertains to all three of the Class I railroads involved and was current as of last December, though a revised one for UP was approved in June, and is available here. Construction agreements with each of the involved railroads are also posted and available for viewing. The one for BNSF is here, the one for CP is here, and the one for UP is here.


Thanks so much. This explains exactly what's happening.
This even explains the odd breaks in construction: in addition to the RCRRA, all three Class Is are doing part of the construction, and they probably have different schedules. The RCRRA work was all done long ago. From the reports, it looks like on the west end UP has done its work but CP hasn't started its part yet, which explains the apparent pause in construction. Of course, it's hard to tell what's going on on the east end, but I would be unsurprised if the same were true. With UP handing over dispatching, it would make sense for UP to do the part of the work allocated to it and then get out and leave it to BNSF and CP.



> Anybody with an interest in this project really *must* check out these documents.


Yes, thank you for finding them!


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## NW cannonball (Oct 10, 2013)

For me, learning that the UP switch south of the river near Plato and the two switches way east at Hoffman are part of the project -- good planning -- those long UP and CP freights won't be fouling the approaches to SPUD.

I used to think that the project was mismanaged because of the delay connecting SPUD to the mains, now it is clear how complicated the whole works is. And how forward-looking for possible high-speed and regional the planning is.

Thanks again mwmnp for posting.


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## rocknviking (Oct 16, 2013)

Here are some photos of the work being done on the west end. It appears that all of the switches are now installed.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 23, 2013)

Here is an article from Minnesota Public Radio: Amtrak stop at Union Depot pulls into final stages

Some tidbits from the article:



> [Dan] Krom [ director of passenger rail for the Minnesota Department of Transportation] said although signal work will be less visible to the public, it's a large part of the project because 5 percent of the nation's rail traffic moves through the freight tracks along the depot.


#######​



> The Union Depot stop for the Empire Builder Amtrak train will open for service after Thanksgiving this year.


No source cited, but



> Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said an exact date for start of service at Union Depot has not yet been announced, but is expected later this year."We will not make a move over Thanksgiving," Magliari said, "because there's too much volume to be disruptive to our passengers to make their travel plans change perhaps for Thanksgiving."


########​



> MnDot personnel are also working with Amtrak to add a second daily train to Chicago that would have its last stop at Union Depot, then return south, instead of continuing to Seattle as the Empire Builder currently does."We'd have a lot more reliability for passengers. Right now, it's got to come 28 hours from the coast, and sometimes it's delayed because anything can happen between here and Seattle," Krom said. "We'll have our results by the first of the year on whether or not it's feasible and how much it would cost to start a second daily train. But the demand is there."
> 
> Researching the idea involves looking at how much train capacity the track currently carries, and those technical details put the planning behind schedule, he said. The idea has been explored for about a year.
> 
> "If it looks feasible, it would probably be brought to the legislature for the upcoming session," Krom said.


While none of this is exactly new, and we all know how reliable Amtrak 'time frames' can be, I thought the article was worth sharing.

Time will tell...


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## Joe F (Oct 23, 2013)

I was at the Midway station this weekend to pick up tickets for an upcoming trip, and asked about the move. The agent told me they will be moving to SPUD by the first of the year.

He also said that westbound trains will follow the current route after leaving SPUD, heading up Short Line Hill, through Midway past the old station and west along the former GN. Following the old NP line via Westminster would be faster, but they apparently are not permitted to make a reverse movement out of SPUD.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 23, 2013)

Joe F said:


> I was at the Midway station this weekend to pick up tickets for an upcoming trip, and asked about the move. The agent told me they will be moving to SPUD by the first of the year.
> 
> He also said that westbound trains will follow the current route after leaving SPUD, heading up Short Line Hill, through Midway past the old station and west along the former GN. Following the old NP line via Westminster would be faster, but they apparently are not permitted to make a reverse movement out of SPUD.


Joe F,

:hi: Welcome to AU! :hi:

Thanks for posting!


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## anir dendroica (Oct 23, 2013)

Will eastbound trains be making the reverse move into SPUD then?

I'm arriving in St. Paul from Portland on Dec. 20 this year, hoping the switch happens by then. I would guess they will either do it in the first couple weeks of December or else wait until after the holiday season.

Mark


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## Ispolkom (Oct 23, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> Will eastbound trains be making the reverse move into SPUD then?
> 
> I'm arriving in St. Paul from Portland on Dec. 20 this year, hoping the switch happens by then. I would guess they will either do it in the first couple weeks of December or else wait until after the holiday season.
> 
> Mark


I'd think that eastbound trains would also use the Merriam subdivision, as they do now.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 23, 2013)

My understanding is that the two BNSF mains through Division street are run mainly directionally, with eastbounds on the south track and westbounds on the north track. As the station wye connects to the south main (Main 2), eastbounds would cause a relatively short delay to eastbound freight with a reverse move (and power switches), while westbounds would need to cross between mains and thus delay freight in both directions.

Furthermore, eastbounds are coming in on BNSF and can thus be run through town on BNSF with the flow of traffic. Westbounds will have variable station dwell times at SPUD, potentially forcing dispatchers to hold freight traffic at Division St. for longer periods in anticipation of Amtrak departure.

In short, I can imagine a near-term solution in which eastbounds stay on BNSF (and reverse into or out of SPUD) and westbounds stay on CP across the city.


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## jebr (Oct 23, 2013)

Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 23, 2013)

jebr said:


> Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.


Pearl Harbor Day? :blink: Just happenstance?

"A day that will live in infamy" according to FDR! 

Not an ominous sign of the move 'bombing' or anything! :giggle:


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## jebr (Oct 23, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.
> ...


Maybe it's more of an ode to the history of the move...the move has already "bombed" in that it's a year late. h34r:


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## PRR 60 (Oct 23, 2013)

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.


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## Notelvis (Oct 24, 2013)

Saw a report on the Trains Newswire yesterday that the turnouts into the new SPUD platforms were completed earlier in the week and that BNSF would handle dispatching into and out of SPUD.

While no exact date for moving the Amtrak station stop to SPUD was reported, an Amtrak spokesman was quoted as saying that in order to avoid passenger confusion, the move would not take place during the Thanksgiving Holidays but, rather, sometime shortly after that.

Makes December 7th sound like a reasonable date. It's a Saturday which would lend itself to a big ceremony designed to get folks down to the station. I would not be surprised if #8 makes it's stop at Midway on 12/7/13 with SPUD opening that afternoon in time for #7 to make the first stop at SPUD that evening.


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

12/7/13 is also the opening of Penn Line weekend service on the MARC. May end up being a good day for passenger rail.


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## Ispolkom (Oct 24, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.
> ...


Well, a December 7 move to SPUD would mean that Amtrak moved in less than a year after SPUD's reopening. One day less than a year.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 24, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.


I can see this happening for a few months during the transition period, but if it goes on indefinitely it will seem like a classic case of Amtrak mismanagement.

With two platform tracks and two stub tracks, there is no reason that a coach can't be added/removed at SPUD, and with all of the ticketing and passenger handling employees moving to SPUD there is no reason that service employees can't move as well. Then Midway can be mothballed or sold to save money and the only reason to stop there will be to occasionally pick up/drop off PVs.


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## Nathanael (Oct 24, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.


I've also heard this repeatedly.

I really don't understand why they'd do this long-term; it would make a lot more sense to do the cutting & adding at SPUD, and I believe SPUD was specced out with all the necessary servicing facilities for Amtrak (correct me if I'm wrong). There's even enough room to store private cars at SPUD (though private car owners might prefer having them at Midway). Issues with road crews switching? What?


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## Nathanael (Oct 24, 2013)

rocknviking said:


>


There's one more switch than expected in that photo. A derail, perhaps?


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## anir dendroica (Oct 24, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.
> ...


Road crews switch at St. Cloud, so that shouldn't be the problem. In fact I'm not sure that any crew members get on/off at MSP.

As for that "switch", it has no frog... I'm guessing it's a derail.


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## bgiaquin (Oct 24, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


No crew members get on or off at MSP


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## anir dendroica (Oct 24, 2013)

Is the train "serviced" at MSP in any way (i.e. adding water, food for the diner, etc.)? Which of these functions would be hardest to move to SPUD? Seems to me that it should be less difficult than moving the "front end" operations.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 25, 2013)

I'd guess that the EB keeps using the CP short line and then through the MNRR yard past the old Midway station for at least 5-10 years.

Reason - cost. I'd make a winning bet that BNSF would want a lot more money for running the Builder from Northtown to Division (or Hoffman) on their very busy mainline than what Amtrak pays to bypass that stretch on the Short Line.

Same thing in other words -- freight congestion (or from the BNSF point of view, passenger train (and UP trackage rights) congestion) on the BNSF mains west from Hoffman or Division, especially between Division and Mississippi St/Westminster.

The big BN mains are faster (until you get near Northtown, where congestion sets in again) *once you get on them.* But I see a lot of freight traffic waiting at Hoffman from the 3 (BN CP UP) yards there waiting a long time to get on those mains.

The two BNSF mains going by Division Street take all the traffic from (and to) the two double-track BNSF mainlines to the west and from the UP to the east, and south - where all these lines merge at the Mississippi Street/Westminster Street wye. And likewise from CP and BNSF points east and UP points south.

The CP short line has the advantage that there's very likely no waiting for freight traffic, especially since the Ford plant closed. The track is 30-40 MPH - with no waiting.

The other slow spot is the MNNR yard near Midway station. The cost kicks in again. For switching, all those old MNNR Alco's with their relatively cheap crews, and plenty low price storage tracks for PV and the seasonal MSP-CHI Amtrak coach. At SPUD -- lots of switchers at the yards two miles away -- but cost probably twice per hour, and have to get cleared through Hoffman to SPUD to even start working $$$.

Naah, It'll be the Short Line for years. Because of the costs.

PS - the Builder refuelled at MSP last - maybe 5-10 years ago? Crew change is at SCD. Potable water IS definitely available at SPUD. Other "servicing" is zilch -- unless -- minor mechanical problems?? MNNR has minor diesel and mechanical servicing available at the old Midway location 24 hours. Another reason to touch there.


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## anir dendroica (Oct 25, 2013)

That makes sense in terms of routing. The slow MNNR track and hand-throw switches could be improved for a fraction of the SPUD trackwork cost, if that becomes a priority.

As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.

I can see stopping at Midway for maintenance and to set out/pick up PVs, but it still seems silly to spend 15 minutes sitting there every day for switching that could be done at SPUD.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 25, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> That makes sense in terms of routing. The slow MNNR track and hand-throw switches could be improved for a fraction of the SPUD trackwork cost, if that becomes a priority.
> 
> As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.
> 
> I can see stopping at Midway for maintenance and to set out/pick up PVs, but it still seems silly to spend 15 minutes sitting there every day for switching that could be done at SPUD.


No doubt switching the seasonal MSP-CHI coach could be done at SPUD cheaper. Probably will be. But the cheaper less congested trackage favors the old Short Line for now.


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## AlanB (Oct 25, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.


If Amtrak crews can do it in St. Louis then there is no reason that they can't do it at SPUD.


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## Nathanael (Oct 25, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> I'd guess that the EB keeps using the CP short line and then through the MNRR yard past the old Midway station for at least 5-10 years.


Don't get me wrong -- the Short Line routing makes perfect sense. It's actually the shorter route. It's cheaper to use. It's uncongested. If there's a worry about speed, it's going to be much easier to fix up the tracks there than it is to reroute the train. (The yard track could be sped up to 30 mph pretty cheaply; the entire route could be brought up to 60 mph at quite reasonable prices.)
The question is about *stopping at the Minnesota Commercial shops* at Midway. Running straight through makes so much more sense than stopping. But the rumors have all been that Amtrak will stop there and put the 707/808 coach there -- it just seems bizarre.



> The other slow spot is the MNNR yard near Midway station. The cost kicks in again. For switching, all those old MNNR Alco's with their relatively cheap crews, and plenty low price storage tracks for PV and the seasonal MSP-CHI Amtrak coach. At SPUD -- lots of switchers at the yards two miles away -- but cost probably twice per hour, and have to get cleared through Hoffman to SPUD to even start working $$$.


At SPUD, it would be the Amtrak road crew doing the switching. And the question is, why not? It's even viable to add and drop private cars there, what with the extra track.
My best guess for a reason would be -- perhaps Amtrak has a contract with Minnesota Commercial and is waiting for contract renewal time before relocating. But I can't think of any other reason not to move the cutting & adding to SPUD, after which the train could move straight through the yards without stopping.


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## mwmnp (Oct 25, 2013)

Notelvis said:


> Makes December 7th sound like a reasonable date. It's a Saturday which would lend itself to a big ceremony designed to get folks down to the station. I would not be surprised if #8 makes it's stop at Midway on 12/7/13 with SPUD opening that afternoon in time for #7 to make the first stop at SPUD that evening.


Another huge clue that December 7th may be the day: the 40th anniversary exhibit train has been scheduled for a while to make a stop in St. Paul on that date. The Amtrak webpage has shown the stop to be at the current Midway station, but I can't imagine putting the train on display at SPUD instead would be that difficult. Or, I suppose the exhibit train could be used for some sort of a "farewell to Midway" event.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 31, 2013)

Looked at the west end SPUD connection today, progressing very well. Saw a 6-man crew installing the power-switch on the derail east of Robert at 17:45 PM.

Looks like all the track tied in, most switch machines installed, signals being worked on - the west-facing signal at Robert been moved 30 yards west outside of the now tied-in connection to CP Main #1.

Maybe two more switches need their power installed, maybe 3-4 need heaters installed. Looks real good.

But -- if the derail they were working on ever has to derail cars out of spud rolling west -- looks like the cars will be dumped over a retaining wall onto automobiles in the parking lot near the tracks. Does this make sense?


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## Nathanael (Nov 1, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> But -- if the derail they were working on ever has to derail cars out of spud rolling west -- looks like the cars will be dumped over a retaining wall onto automobiles in the parking lot near the tracks. Does this make sense?


Probably a requirement of the Class I freight railroads, who seem to be genuinely allergic to passenger trains. They probably think this derail will reduce their liability if a car rolls loose out of SPUD. Presumably this would happen at low speed, so I suppose they don't expect a car to actually topple in such a situation. If it did, that would probably, um, increase their liability because they signed off on the design.


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## Agent (Nov 1, 2013)

Not track work, but they're apparently also putting in a park for rail fans next to Saint Paul Union Depot.


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## The Davy Crockett (Nov 1, 2013)

Agent said:


> Not track work, but they're apparently also putting in a park for rail fans next to Saint Paul Union Depot.


Maybe they should call it "Foamer's Field?"


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## dabrilloman (Nov 2, 2013)

Here are a few pictures of the "Park" area I assume they are refering to. Some interesting benches, platforms and native prarie grasses (I think). Also the trail from the Vento Nature area connects to this park. This area used to be the employee parking lot for the US Post Office when we (I am a postal clerk) were still in downtown Saint Paul.


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## bgiaquin (Nov 2, 2013)

looks nice.


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## Ispolkom (Nov 2, 2013)

The Star Tribune has an article about the new public art at St. Paul Union Depot. It would seem I will be able to play a musical ping pong table while waiting for a delayed Empire Builder.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 2, 2013)

Nice Park! Bet it's Great in the Summer! :lol:


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## NW cannonball (Nov 4, 2013)

A detail to note -- the area with the benches and tables has a sort of roof over it. That cover over the bench and table area has a map of the tracks through Union Depot as they were 70-80 decades ago. Just lay back and look at the overhead. Don't know the artist, but it is an interesting detail. All done in little drill-holes through the overhead to outline the old-time track map.


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## jebr (Nov 11, 2013)

mwmnp said:


> Notelvis said:
> 
> 
> > Makes December 7th sound like a reasonable date. It's a Saturday which would lend itself to a big ceremony designed to get folks down to the station. I would not be surprised if #8 makes it's stop at Midway on 12/7/13 with SPUD opening that afternoon in time for #7 to make the first stop at SPUD that evening.
> ...


Speaking of the 40th anniversary train...


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## dabrilloman (Nov 12, 2013)

jebr said:


> mwmnp said:
> 
> 
> > Notelvis said:
> ...


I sent an email to Amtrak Public Relations in Chicago on Nov. 2 asking for an update or if there was a date set yet for the move to SPUD. I received a reply on the 3rd that said quote

[SIZE=11pt]"Not this month. Ramsey County and we will announce the date at the appropriate time.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thanks for your interest. We’re looking forward to it, too."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Just a thought, but it would be cool if they were to use the 40th Anniversary Train stop at SPUD as the day for announcing the date of the move. [/SIZE]


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## mwmnp (Nov 12, 2013)

The Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority today approved operating and lease agreements for Amtrak to formally move into SPUD. Of note, both agreements are for an initial 20 years, the portions of the depot Amtrak will be leasing are to be handed over to Amtrak on December 1st, and Amtrak's rent limit (not necessarily what they will be paying) will be $144,586 per year, increasing 3% each year beginning in 2015, with an additional one-time increase of $44,357 if Amtrak sells or demolishes the current Midway station. No additional detail of when the Empire Builder will begin stopping at the station is noted, other than the "first quarter of 2014." There's also no mention, that I could find, of switching cars at the depot, but there is confirmation that there are electrical and plumbing facilities on the platforms for Amtrak to use in servicing trains.


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## jebr (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm starting to think they're just wanting to kill two birds with one stone and have the huge grand opening with both the light rail and the Empire Builder!


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## mwmnp (Nov 12, 2013)

On a different note, I just discovered the depot is now on Google Street View. This is really great. You can start here at the Amtrak end of the waiting room, where the tower leads down to the platforms, and "walk" straight ahead all the way to the 4th Street entrance. Go "downstairs" and you can also see the Kellogg Boulevard entrance where the Amtrak ticket and baggage facilities will be.


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## mwmnp (Nov 12, 2013)

jebr said:


> Speaking of the 40th anniversary train...


Hmm, take another look at the websites announcing upcoming exhibit train stops. All mention of a December 7th stop at SPUD appears to have been removed.


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## rickycourtney (Nov 13, 2013)

So there's an interesting mention of an "Amtrak VIP Lounge" inside of Saint Paul Union Depot. I didn't remember seeing that elsewhere in our discussion (but this is getting to be a long topic!)

The improvements show a counter (presumably for coffee and snacks) with beverage refrigerator and a water cooler.

It will be interesting to see if this will be setup like the Metropolitan Lounges in CHI and PDX with an attendant or just as a private waiting area for Sleeping car passengers like the one at Midway.


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## Nathanael (Nov 13, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> It will be interesting to see if this will be setup like the Metropolitan Lounges in CHI and PDX with an attendant or just as a private waiting area for Sleeping car passengers like the one at Midway.


Yeah, it's not clear whether there will be an attendant, but I'd guess not. Amtrak doesn't tend to hire extra employees if it doesn't have to...


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## rickycourtney (Nov 13, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Yeah, it's not clear whether there will be an attendant, but I'd guess not. Amtrak doesn't tend to hire extra employees if it doesn't have to...


There may need to be an extra employee considering the ticking office for Amtrak is downstairs. Unless they plan to use a door code that changes daily, someone will need to be there to check tickets before letting passengers into the lounge.


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## Nathanael (Nov 13, 2013)

Hadn't thought of that. Well, an attendant would be a nice improvement.

The Strib says (as noted in the other thread) that the latest guess for the Empire Builder move is mid-February of 2014, because apparently the freight railroads expect to need three months to debug their signal system. (Why do I think they're not treating this as a priority?) That's only a year and three months late. It's still before the light rail line is scheduled to open (which is a vague "mid-2014"). But who knows what the next holdup will be.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 13, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, it's not clear whether there will be an attendant, but I'd guess not. Amtrak doesn't tend to hire extra employees if it doesn't have to...
> ...


This is how it works in New Orleans for the "Magnolia Room" and in St. Louis for the Unstaffed Lounge! Since the Midway Station "Lounge" is Unstaffed I'd venture a Guess that the New Lounge will also be the Same!


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## mwmnp (Nov 13, 2013)

The "VIP Lounge" is right here, and one of the entrance doors very clearly has a keypad entry.


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## afigg (Nov 13, 2013)

mwmnp said:


> The "VIP Lounge" is right here, and one of the entrance doors very clearly has a keypad entry.


With the advent of eTicketing, they could add a scanner with wireless internet access to the doors to unlock them for anyone with a valid eTicket. If someone does not have a eTicket, then they could enter their reservation number in the keypad. If they don't have that, then knock on the door and someone will let them in. Would not be a tight screening process, but it would generally keep those not riding on Amtrak out.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Nov 13, 2013)

VIP lounge has glass walls.

Not sure I like that maybe some sort of window screen needed.

The name "VIP Lounge" is not going to work.

"Viking lounge" "Twin City's Lounge" "Ramsey Lounge"

For the record that is one fine looking station.


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## bgiaquin (Nov 14, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Hadn't thought of that. Well, an attendant would be a nice improvement.
> 
> The Strib says (as noted in the other thread) that the latest guess for the Empire Builder move is mid-February of 2014, because apparently the freight railroads expect to need three months to debug their signal system. (Why do I think they're not treating this as a priority?) That's only a year and three months late. It's still before the light rail line is scheduled to open (which is a vague "mid-2014"). But who knows what the next holdup will be.


Dang it! We have been waiting for so long and right when it is getting close they say "oops sorry wait another 2 months" these delays are really ticking me off.


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## CHamilton (Nov 14, 2013)

More details on the lease and the work still to be done at http://www.twincities.com/breakingnews/ci_24507239/union-depot-amtrak-deal-set-trains-arrive-early


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## anir dendroica (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm not sure if it comes down to bureaucracy, ever-increasing complexity, an ever-expanding list of codes and regulations, or some combination of these, but pretty much every large project these days ends up late, over budget, and plagued by unforeseen problems. The new road to the Oregon coast (now five years delayed and double budget due to some faulty geoengineering), the Boeing Dreamliner, the federal and state health care websites. Not surprising that Amtrak's move to SPUD is no exception. Just a bit disappointed that I'll be arriving at Midway instead of SPUD this Christmas.


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## zephyr17 (Nov 14, 2013)

Me too, I'll be traveling round-trip on the Builder EVR-CHI in December and hoped I'd be able to scope out SPUD during the stop there.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 14, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> I'm not sure if it comes down to bureaucracy, ever-increasing complexity, an ever-expanding list of codes and regulations, or some combination of these, but pretty much every large project these days ends up late, over budget, and plagued by unforeseen problems. The new road to the Oregon coast (now five years delayed and double budget due to some faulty geoengineering), the Boeing Dreamliner, the federal and state health care websites. Not surprising that Amtrak's move to SPUD is no exception. Just a bit disappointed that I'll be arriving at Midway instead of SPUD this Christmas.


Midway MSP station aint the bad -- SPUD - whenever Amtrak might stop there is impressive, but like I said to visitors last August giving a tour to Seattleites -- SEA is good, has trains -- SPUD is really impressive - but no trains . Good bus service to the airport - gate A1 - at the Metrotransit stop on the lower level. Several Casino buses already stopping at SPUD. And Jefferson lines connections to Duluth, Rochester, points East and West. - but - no trains. Maybe next year.

For now, there's a decent restaurant in the front hall -- but will not be open when the Empire Builder arrives eastbound or westbound.

Anir -- if you want a local guide - PM me - I'm in walking distance from old MSP Midway.


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## John Mandel (Dec 1, 2013)

[SIZE=medium]A Remembrance From Afar[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]When I was just a little kid in the 60’s, my grandparents would arrive for the holidays at the Milwaukee Road Depot. I remember waiting, shivering cold, and then climbing aboard the warm Rock Island train to find my grandparents. About that same time, my third grade class took a field trip on the Empire Builder from the Great Northern Depot to St. Paul Union Depot. My first train ride.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As I got older, Amtrak took over. I spent many hours at the Great Northern Depot watching the trains come and go, all in almost their original consists. My birthday presents were tickets to ride. I rode on the (almost) original consists of the Super Chief, Empire Builder, Broadway Ltd....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In my teens, I watched Amtrak build the new Midway Station. It was, to us youngsters, marvelous. Amtrak was succeeding! Many years later, my heart sank as I saw the Great Northern Depot come down. The abandoned St. Paul Union Depot could not be far behind, and the Milwaukee Road Station was a ghost, also awaiting the wrecking ball.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Today I see the Milwaukee Road Station preserved, light rail lines connecting the cities, and—wonder of wonders—St. Paul Union Depot renovated and beginning a new life as a cultural and transit center. I never would have dared to hope for such things. Now in my 50’s, I live in Los Angeles, where similar miracles are happening.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]All things considered, we have done well, fellow rail fans. As the new year dawns, I am grateful and, miracle of miracles, hopeful.[/SIZE]


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## Nathanael (Dec 2, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> I'm not sure if it comes down to bureaucracy, ever-increasing complexity, an ever-expanding list of codes and regulations, or some combination of these, but pretty much every large project these days ends up late, over budget, and plagued by unforeseen problems.


Most often, it's "too many cooks". When one agency has total control, things can go pretty quick. Boeing self-sabotaged by outsourcing too much. SPUD had to deal with 3 separate Class I railroads. Often, subcontracting is at fault.


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## rocknviking (May 5, 2014)

Amtrak has a single engine doing testing at the St. Paul Union Depot tonight. It looks like they are testing out the mainline switches as well as the switches within the confines of the depot property. Looked pretty awesome to look down from HWY 52 and see live action down in the depot area! It also appears that all of the signals are now live and functioning. Only wish that I had my camera with me!


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## bgiaquin (May 6, 2014)

https://flic.kr/p/nvHoN2


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## Blackwolf (May 6, 2014)

Curious, but would it be safe to presume that the green grassy area to the right of the train in that photo above is intended as space for potential expansion of rail services into and out of SPUD? Sort of a landscaped placeholder to keep room for additional platforms to be built as-needed?

If so, it is refreshing to have people actually thinking _ahead_ with plans instead of just building for the present.


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## neroden (May 6, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Curious, but would it be safe to presume that the green grassy area to the right of the train in that photo above is intended as space for potential expansion of rail services into and out of SPUD? Sort of a landscaped placeholder to keep room for additional platforms to be built as-needed?


Yep, that's where the proposed future commuter rail platforms, and the proposed light rail platforms, would go. The plans can probably still be found on the web somewhere.


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## George Harris (May 7, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Curious, but would it be safe to presume that the green grassy area to the right of the train in that photo above is intended as space for potential expansion of rail services into and out of SPUD? Sort of a landscaped placeholder to keep room for additional platforms to be built as-needed?.


It is the grassy knoll tranported from Dallas so the elusive second assassin can hide.


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## MattW (May 7, 2014)

Glad to see them preserving the future tracks and in a way that's also very nice and not just a concrete or gravel nightmare. How many tracks will run through the station as opposed to being stub-ended?


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## Exiled in Express (May 7, 2014)

#8 was stopped at the station tonight. Portland sleeper was aligned with the headhouse stairs, hopefully post move the positioning is more centered.


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## NW cannonball (May 7, 2014)

MattW said:


> Glad to see them preserving the future tracks and in a way that's also very nice and not just a concrete or gravel nightmare. How many tracks will run through the station as opposed to being stub-ended?


There's two thru tracks in the station that connect on the west end to the CP track 1, and on the east end to the BNSF at Division, plus a short stub, plus a long stub to the east.

Me waiting and watching the last two years, and wondering *** -- but --

I think they (local station promoters) got it right, not just for "having a classic rail station" but for possible future connections.

I watched the details, the project included a switch improvement a mile south of the station to allow the UP to not block the station tracks - and another switch upgrade two miles to the east in the super busy Hoffman area --

What I'm saying is -- this project, delayed as it has been - has been planned and implemented for more passenger traffic. Hope that comes to pass.

And yeah, the green space near the new (old) station is real pleasant and safe to wander thru -- see the Mississippi -


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## MattW (May 7, 2014)

So only the two tracks go through the station? So commuter trains from the west will have to back in or just use one of the through tracks?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 7, 2014)

I'd assume they are push pull like practically all commuter trains and so the stub end is something of a non issue.


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## PRR 60 (May 7, 2014)

MattW said:


> So only the two tracks go through the station? So commuter trains from the west will have to back in or just use one of the through tracks?


Only two tracks go through now, but the plan allows for up to six tracks to pass through the station as needed.


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## TraneMan (May 7, 2014)

There's track in front of the station for the light rails.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


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## Rverviewer (May 8, 2014)

Here's the TwinCities.com/_St. Paul Pioneer Press's_ coverage of the re-opening of SPUD....their top story online this morning!

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_25716518/amtraks-arrival-at-union-depot-celebrated


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## rrdude (May 8, 2014)

On the image/photo with Boardman on the rear of the biz car, there's a map, and the words "Amtrak America", and a map with a train X it, AND the ORIGINAL Amtrak "pointless arrow" logo. Do I also remember seeing that on some of the Viewliners under construction at CAF?

If so, (i'm obviously out of the loop, per usual) has this new "Amtrak America" logo/brand been officially adopted by Amtrak for the LD services?


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## prech786 (May 9, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > So only the two tracks go through the station? So commuter trains from the west will have to back in or just use one of the through tracks?
> ...


Here is the site map for the St. Paul Union Depot (SPUD). There are currently four through tracks in place, two for the Amtrak Platform and two for future Commuter Rail. LRT tracks are not in place yet under the Concourse. LRT now stops in front of the Head House on 4th Street.

FYI; Most likely future Commuter rail would be the Red Rock Line to Hastings MN. and the Rush Line to Rush Lake MN. Both are to the east out of St. Paul. Their existence is likely a decade out.


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## Guest (May 9, 2014)

What other continent does the "Intercontinental Rail" on Platform 1 go to?  

Guest


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## Ryan (May 9, 2014)

rrdude said:


> On the image/photo with Boardman on the rear of the biz car, there's a map, and the words "Amtrak America", and a map with a train X it, AND the ORIGINAL Amtrak "pointless arrow" logo. Do I also remember seeing that on some of the Viewliners under construction at CAF?
> 
> If so, (i'm obviously out of the loop, per usual) has this new "Amtrak America" logo/brand been officially adopted by Amtrak for the LD services?


Dude, you're so out of the loop. That's totally like last year's news.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/


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## neroden (May 9, 2014)

The latest news on the commuter lines is that none of them are likely to happen at all, unfortunately (the studies are favoring buses). Intercity lines such as a second frequency to Chicago or the line to Duluth are more likely in the next decade or two.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 9, 2014)

What do you expect? These are people who VOLUNTARILY choose to live Minnesota.


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## zephyr17 (May 9, 2014)

Guest said:


> What other continent does the "Intercontinental Rail" on Platform 1 go to?
> 
> Guest


Asia, apparently. Now we know the destination of the China - US high speed rail line China just propsed.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/chinese-experts-discussions-high-speed-beijing-american-railway

:0


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## Ispolkom (May 10, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> What do you expect? These are people who VOLUNTARILY choose to live Minnesota.


At least in Minnesota we know how to use hyphens and prepositions. And seriously, how many people commute from Hastings to St. Paul? That route didn't work as interurban rail in the 1920s. If you'd ever look at the traffic on highway 61, you'd know.

We just don't elect a County Board that knows that a railroad depot requires rails. It only took them 18 months to fix that.


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