# Future of the Pacific Parlour Cars?



## domefoamer (Nov 19, 2014)

This topic has already been discussed some already over on another thread, but it's been drowned out by larger topics like the future of all LD trains, etc. I feel like it's much more than a "tidbit," though. They may be only five cars, but they're Amtrak's only unique, vintage passenger equipment, besides the Heritage diners that will be replaced soon, and have been remodeled so many times that they've lost much vintage appeal, as I understand it.

I'm so happy that I had a chance to ride a PPC on the northbound Starlight last spring. As my name suggests, I'm drawn to the look and feel of midcentury streamliner equipment. So I found the PPC especially rewarding. Though the same basic outline of a Superliner, they showed what a little attention to decor and detail can do to transform an interior. In a Sightseeer Lounge, I concentrate on the view outside and try to overlook the plastic extrusions and tacky upholstery, which remind me of a humble light rail car. I'm glad we have them, of course, but they look like they were intended to be hosed down after service.

In contrast, the PPC displays nice wood paneling (veneer) on most surfaces, and indirect lighting from sconces between the wide windows. Enough folks have praised the comfort of the swivel chairs; what can I add? It's a calming place inside, and with the smaller passenger load of the sleepers, you get to know people quickly.

There was something slightly haunted and absent, though. Maybe it was the large steel steam table between the dining and lounge areas, which reminded you of times when it served more than the box of fruit sitting there nowadays. The downstairs theater wasn't operating on my run, interrupted by a midday bustitution for track work. It may be an anachronism today, when few travel without several movies loaded onto their "device," though.

Enough ruminations. If you've ridden these fine old cars, you probably have even wiser things to say. So let me just ask:

-- what "renovations" would you like to see happen, and what would you really like to save?

-- what's your estimate of the chances that the PPCs will go into renovation, never to be seen on Amtrak again?

I fear that Amtrak might be embarrassed by the etched glass partition that doesn't fit with this new trend towards standardized, bare-bones transportation. You know, the one that says, "Coast Starlight / Superior Service."


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## domefoamer (Nov 19, 2014)

Just trying to get a phot published here...


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 19, 2014)

While nice, the PPC interiors are getting long in the tooth and could stand a redo. Take out the steam table since meals are now plated in the Diner and perhaps put another swivel chair in its place. Take out the lower level theater, reopen the windows and put another lounging area in there. Maybe a couple cozy booths and tables where you can hide out and get some work done if you need to. Spend a few more bucks on heavier curtain rods as the 3 PPCs I have been on had several bent ones.

During the _*El Capitan *_days, the Lounges had a restroom near the Diner end vestibule according to some car plan books I have; if the plumbing in would not involve a nightmare, put one back in to save a potential long walk back to the Sleeper.


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## Paulus (Nov 19, 2014)

I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 19, 2014)

Paulus said:


> I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.


And yet, just yesterday me and a co-worker started talking about train travel. Seems they'd taken the Starlight from Chico to Los Angeles and back four or so years ago, making the wise decision to travel with their family in Sleeper. It was their first trip on Amtrak, or on a train for that matter. They've taken several more trips since then, including the Capitol Corridor to get to Raiders games in Oakland.

Their most pointed memory? The PPC. They said that there was interest in visiting some family of theirs in Denver this next year, and looking to take Amtrak to get there. When I said that the PPC was only found on the Starlight, and not on any other Amtrak LD train, they quickly started to reconsider.

So, no. I would disagree with you. Yes, the current cars may be a drain, but there needs to be a First Class Parlor-type car on all LD trains with Sleeper services. Just my very staunch $0.02.


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## Paulus (Nov 19, 2014)

Blackwolf said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
> ...


The implication from Amtrak's data is that the PPCs raise direct costs by about 50% over and above what a sleeper train normally costs.


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## domefoamer (Nov 19, 2014)

Do I hear you say it costs half as much to pull, staff and maintain one PPC as the rest of a full train of, say eight cars? Present your evidence, and define "direct cost." They're no heavier than another car, and they require one staffer. Is their maintenance cost equal to three or four Superliners?

We can all agree that anything without ticketed seats is a "non-revenue car," but...


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## Paulus (Nov 19, 2014)

domefoamer said:


> Do I hear you say it costs half as much to pull, staff and maintain one PPC as the rest of a full train of, say eight cars? Present your evidence, and define "direct cost." They're no heavier than another car, and they require one staffer. Is their maintenance cost equal to three or four Superliners?
> 
> We can all agree that anything without ticketed seats is a "non-revenue car," but...


Here


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## domefoamer (Nov 20, 2014)

Plenty of others here can say this with more authority, but isn't the Starlight a a longer consist than many others on the list? More cars means more expense, whatever the age of the cars.


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## D.P. Roberts (Nov 20, 2014)

Two ideas/questions:

Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.

Radical idea: eliminate the PPCs, and make the Sightseer Lounges eligible to sleeper passengers only.


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## rickycourtney (Nov 20, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.


Just personal experience here... the SCAs in the PPC are very good at selling drinks and souvenirs, but seem to be constrained by a lack of product to sell.


D.P. Roberts said:


> Radical idea: eliminate the PPCs, and make the Sightseer Lounges eligible to sleeper passengers only.


That would be tough since the Sightseer Lounge also serves as the cafe car for coach passengers.


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## rickycourtney (Nov 20, 2014)

It's been reported on another thread that the Pacific Parlour cars are about to go in for a major refurbishment. This is a great time for Amtrak to reconsider how these cars are being used:

The steam tables can be removed. They made since when the meals used to be plated in the PPC, but now all meals are played in the kitchen of the adjacent dining car. That could allow a little more seating to be added.

The movie theater was a nice idea but it seems very lightly used by passengers. That's a large area that could be repurposed. Anybody have some ideas for what should go there?


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## neroden (Nov 20, 2014)

There is a distinction to be made between

(a) continuing to run the PPCs themselves (60-year-old Heritage cars with obsolete and specialized parts)

(b) having some sort of first-class lounge or "alternate lounge" car.

I think there's a case for (b) when a new order of Superliners is made, and Amtrak's fleet strategy agrees with me. They seem to be a useful marketing tool, and they can address the issue of lounge overcrowding on the longest of the trains.

However, at this point, I seriously doubt it's wise to actually keep doing (a). Museums have the volunteer effort necessary to keep 60-year-old pieces of rolling stock running... but it's not very cost effective for Amtrak.

----

But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2014)

neroden said:


> But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.


So, one person would grab exclusive control of the "big screen" and display on it what ever they wanted, and everyone else, including children, would be at their mercy?

Movies? Porn? Single player games? Stock reports? Anything!


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 20, 2014)

Guest said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
> ...


Only if they choose to go downstairs. It's not that big of a room.


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## rrdude (Nov 20, 2014)

Paulus said:


> I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.


And they are thee SOLE REASON I have taken several "day trips" from LA to the Bay Area.

Amtrak already lost my family on the AT, with the amenity cuts. (not too shabby in revenue if you figure over 20+ OW trips)

Lose the PPC? Number one, I'm going less. Number two, I'm not buying sleeper class.


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## rrdude (Nov 20, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> It's been reported on another thread that the Pacific Parlour cars are about to go in for a major refurbishment. This is a great time for Amtrak to reconsider how these cars are being used:
> 
> The steam tables can be removed. They made since when the meals used to be plated in the PPC, but now all meals are played in the kitchen of the adjacent dining car. That could allow a little more seating to be added.
> 
> The movie theater was a nice idea but it seems very lightly used by passengers. That's a large area that could be repurposed. Anybody have some ideas for what should go there?


So simple it's stoopid. Link the big screen to a rear mounted camera. Then everyone gets a "railfan window". Of course the BEST idea would be a locomotive mounted camera, but then they'd have to provide diapers for everyone watching that view........


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 20, 2014)

Since there has been a plan in place for several years to have Business Class on the Starlight, why not have it be downstairs where the lightly used theater is located! ( And the wasted space in the so called Video Game room in the Coaches could also be used as a cafe or bar car to raise revenue)

The idea to get rid of the steam table and add more swivel seating is an excellent one as is having more souviners for the attendant to sell! ( when I rode in Oct. there were Zero items for sale)


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## City of Miami (Nov 20, 2014)

For me the value of the PPC seems to have hugely to do with the attendant. I have really enjoyed it exactly one time - that was the first time which was in 2005, I think, and Nanette was the attendant. The place was packed, she was a riot, and everyone had a great time - and this was not the c&w tasting which came later in the day. On other trips, even with the meals offered, it has been a dull experience, sometimes with NO one in there. Given the fabled expense to maintain them, my vote would be to let them go. Nice idea at one time, but not happening now for whatever reason. I never did get a cappuccino from the machines that were reported to cost $4K apiece IIRC.


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## Palmland (Nov 20, 2014)

If you assume that the PPC cars are worn out and expensive to maintain and additional revenue they attract warrants a replacement, what is the best option? Since we know new Superliners are a far off wish, the only cars left that would work and are available are the much maligned CCC cars. While they don't have the big windows, they could be made much more attractive with suggestions made by the OP. If the lower level galley is not needed because food is supplied from the adjoining diner, replace with business class seats. Minimal cost but maximize revenue. If it works, could be a model for a 1st class lounge/dining/BC on perhaps the CZ and EB.


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## tonys96 (Nov 20, 2014)

Paulus said:


> I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.


Of course you do.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Nov 20, 2014)

Have ridden the Coast Starlight three times in past year. On one trip the PPC was replaced by a SSL. I noticed that when there was a PPC, a smail group of passengers ended up "hogging" the swivel seats to the extent of leaving personal items in the seats(to save them) when they had to leave the seat for some reason. Since there are three sleepers usually on the CS, I preferred the SSL used instead of the PPC since seats provide better viewing angle to see scenery than the six or eight swivel seats. In fact I stayed in my roomette for sightseeing(both sides) since it provided the best views and better comfort for me than the swivel seats. Unless some sort of Sleeper Car sightseeing lounge can be provided for all the Western LD trains, I have no problem discontinuing the only five PPC's remaining.


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## D.P. Roberts (Nov 20, 2014)

I agree with the Tennessee Traveler. After several trips on the CS, I like the idea of a sleeper-class lounge car, but I'm fine with getting rid of the PPC. The best seats are clearly the swivel seats, and on ALL my trips they were hogged by groups almost the whole time.

Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal.

Here's my other idea: replace the PPCs with a remodeled SSL. Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal. Use the downstairs area as a kitchen, & cook and serve "REAL FOOD" from there for the sleeper pax. Then, add this car to all LD trains for sleeper pax only. Then, redo the dining cars as a more casual, cheaper, take out" - style alternative, mainly for coach pax.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 20, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > Does the PPC employee pay for himself/herself? In other words, is the revenue from the drinks higher than what that employee costs? If so, couldn't Amtrak just leave the car unstaffed? Passengers could still get drinks from the cafe car.
> ...


On my trips the PPC attendant has rarely if ever walked through the car offering cocktails or snacks. If they did they could probably double or triple the current sales. Unfortunately the PPC isn’t stocked at anything approaching a reasonable amount. At the start of my last CS trip I ordered a double Jack & Coke on the way out of LA. According to the attendant that single cocktail had consumed ALL of the Jack Daniels that was stocked for the entire run. Amtrak appears to be setting itself up to fail by a staff that is less than enthusiastic about selling and doesn’t have anywhere near enough product to sell anyhow.



Guest said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
> ...


Right now we’re already at the mercy of children’s movies that apparently chew up the same bandwidth the WiFi service uses. Many folks have complained about the lack of swivel chairs due to arrogant riders who refuse to give them up. Many folks have complained about extremely poor WiFi speeds. That’s exactly what I’ve seen on my own trips as well. I’ve never heard anyone complain about lack of tables or access to children’s movies. Maybe Amtrak should replace the downstairs theater and upstairs tables with more swivel chairs?



tonys96 said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope Amtrak gets rid of them. They're a massive drain on the Starlight's expenses and lose far more money than they bring in.
> ...


Apparently Paulus still doesn’t realize that we already know what he’s going to say before he can blurt it out.


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## tonys96 (Nov 20, 2014)

Once, on the TE, I could not find a seat in the SSL that was not at a table. The setee seats were all taken up. Should that mean that the SSL should be removed from the consist?

That is the reasoning being postulated here by some, they couldn't get a swivel in the PPC, so it should be removed......

Sounds to me like a bit of whining..............


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 20, 2014)

In re: Getting rid of the PPCs.

Be careful what you wish for, people said the same thing about the Coach- Dome Cars that used to be on most non- Eastern Routes!


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## Palmland (Nov 20, 2014)

If Amtrak decides to pull the PPC, I wonder if there is an opportunity for Iowa Pacific to try their type of operation now done on the CONO. Even if not daily, it would at least offer an upgraded service for those who can afford it. I read that the great ex-MILW 'Skytop lounge sleeper', Coffee Creek, is now owned by IP and awaiting restoration.


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## afigg (Nov 20, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> I agree with the Tennessee Traveler. After several trips on the CS, I like the idea of a sleeper-class lounge car, but I'm fine with getting rid of the PPC. The best seats are clearly the swivel seats, and on ALL my trips they were hogged by groups almost the whole time.
> 
> Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal.
> 
> Here's my other idea: replace the PPCs with a remodeled SSL. Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal. Use the downstairs area as a kitchen, & cook and serve "REAL FOOD" from there for the sleeper pax. Then, add this car to all LD trains for sleeper pax only. Then, redo the dining cars as a more casual, cheaper, take out" - style alternative, mainly for coach pax.


There are only 44 remaining Superliner SightSeer Lounge cars with 6 lost in wrecks. There are not enough to provide a second remodeled SSL car for sleeper class passengers on the western LD train unless you want to take the SSL away from coach passengers. Remodeling the downstairs of a SSL into a full service kitchen is probably a major and expensive job, if it can be be done at all.

If hogging the swivel seats is a problem, then Amtrak needs to set a policy with a time limit for people to use the seats when the PPC is busy. And tne policy needs to be enforced which is the hard part.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 20, 2014)

Palmland said:


> If Amtrak decides to pull the PPC, I wonder if there is an opportunity for Iowa Pacific to try their type of operation now done on the CONO. Even if not daily, it would at least offer an upgraded service for those who can afford it. I read that the great ex-MILW 'Skytop lounge sleeper', Coffee Creek, is now owned by IP and awaiting restoration.


From some pics I saw a few years ago_* Coffee Creek*_ was well into the restoration but I have heard nothing since. It has a longer glass enclosed Lounge on the tail and carries 8 Bedrooms. There were 6 Creek series Lounge Sleepers built for the _*Olympian Hiawatha*_ sets.


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## neroden (Nov 20, 2014)

Guest said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > But in the meantime, the movie theater should be converted into an electronics lounge. How about providing a direct HDMI hookup from the screen and letting passengers plug their own devices into the "big screen", first-come first-serve (or taking reservations)? This requires minimal adaptation and would probably be attractive.
> ...


Stock reports! The horror! (Actually, this is what I'd *expect*.)
It would be pretty easy to prohibit porn.



D.P. Roberts said:


> Some combination of the SSL's large windows with the PPC's swivel seats would be ideal.


Maybe getting the SSL swivel seats swivelling again? Most are broken.


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 20, 2014)

Here's the PPC's movie theater.


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## west point (Nov 20, 2014)

The cars do have some problems.

1. The floor of PPC is 6 inches lower than other superliner cars that some one if not looking could stumble over the rise ( fall ).

2. There is only one grab iron to transition to another superliner.

3.. Bellows to transition to other superliners do not line up.

4. Doorway approach to go to another car is somewhat smaller.


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## George K (Nov 20, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Here's the PPC's movie theater.


My living room is better - and the seats are probably more comfortable.

(yeah, I was in the PPC in September)

But, that said, it was nice to have dinner somewhere else than the dining car. The service was less rushed, more personal, and I liked the different menu (especially when I was spending 5/10 nights on LD trains - variety!).


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## afigg (Nov 21, 2014)

Amtrak has posted a service alert on the PPC removal from service for 2 months:



> *Coast Starlight Trains 11 and 14: Parlour Car Temporarily Removed*
> 
> Beginning January 12 through March 12, 2015, the Pacific Parlour Car will be removed from the Coast Starlight trains for maintenance. During this period, the Dining Car and Sightseer Lounge Car will continue to be available for passengers.


Since Amtrak is issuing a service alert with a defined return date, the odds are pretty good that the plan is to keep the PPCs in service. For one, the cars are being removed during the slow season. If they were really seeking to permanantly drop the PPCs, I think they would be announcing that the cars are being "temporarily" removed for servicing and repair, but without providing a return date. Then a couple of months into the repair period, announce that serious mechanical problems had been found that would be too expensive to repair and that the funding situation was forcing them to retire the cars.


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## MrFSS (Nov 21, 2014)

Wonder if they are moving them to Beech Grove?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 21, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> Wonder if they are moving them to Beech Grove?


I wonder if they will marshal them all together and then move them at once, for example on the back of the_* Southwest Chief*_ or just take them where they are on 12 JAN with some on the _*Builder*_ and some on the _*Chief*_. Either way I would guess _*Cardinal*_ after that?

Get your cameras ready!


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## MrFSS (Nov 21, 2014)

I get to Beech Grove now and then to take pictures. A few years ago they had a PPC stripped down and it was being totally reworked,


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## yarrow (Nov 21, 2014)

Beginning January 12 through March 12, 2015, the Pacific Parlour Car will be removed from the Coast Starlight trains for maintenance. During this period, the Dining Car and Sightseer Lounge Car will continue to be available for passengers.

We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. Reservation and train status information is available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.


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## George K (Nov 21, 2014)

How many PPCs are in service?


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## jis (Nov 21, 2014)

5

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Trainmans daughter (Nov 22, 2014)

jis said:


> 5
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


--on a good day.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 22, 2014)

George K said:


> How many PPCs are in service?


Six were originally built for the Santa Fe _*El Capitan*_ back in 1955 or 56. The orphan car is sitting on a "car lot" somewhere in Illinois last I heard.


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## William W. (Nov 22, 2014)

My CS trip is on January 8th. This trip will probably be my only chance to see a PPC.


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## CHamilton (Nov 22, 2014)

The PPC attendant I spoke with last week said that his boss had said that they are coming back, but expressed some skepticism that that will actually happen. I've got a couple of CS trips planned over Thanksgiving and Christmas, so I hope to get some more rides in those purple swivel chairs! If anybody wants to join me, send me a PM.


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## tonys96 (Nov 22, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> The PPC attendant I spoke with last week said that his boss had said that they are coming back, but expressed some skepticism that that will actually happen.


That would make Paulus happy! :wacko:


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## jis (Nov 22, 2014)

Trainmans daughter said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > 5
> ...


In general when 5 are on active roster one would expect only 4 or as few as 3 or even just 2 to be in actual service, for cars this old with maintenance issues. That is part of the problem faced with in providing reliable PPC service.


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## west point (Nov 22, 2014)

There may be an early departure for one or two to Beech grove since all 5 are not needed on the route at one time. The same as PPCs are finished they can be shipped back to west coast. Wonder how much equipment ( mostly running gear ) is compatible with the old heritage cars of Amtrak ?.


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## Ken Allan (Nov 22, 2014)

THis has been posted on Amtrak.com

Coast Starlight Trains 11 and 14: Parlour Car Temporarily Removed Effective January 12 through March 12, 2015

Beginning January 12 through March 12, 2015, the Pacific Parlour Car will be removed from the Coast Starlight trains for maintenance. During this period, the Dining Car and Sightseer Lounge Car will continue to be available for passengers.

We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. Reservation and train status information is available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.

PSN 1114-34


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## neroden (Nov 22, 2014)

There's actually some logic to this. The underlying purpose of the PPC is to relieve overcrowding in the lounge car. From January 12 through March 12, the low season, there isn't overcrowding in the lounge car. Given the maintenance-intensive nature of the PPCs, I would actually expect this to recur in future years as long as the PPCs continue in service.


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## afigg (Nov 22, 2014)

west point said:


> There may be an early departure for one or two to Beech grove since all 5 are not needed on the route at one time. The same as PPCs are finished they can be shipped back to west coast. Wonder how much equipment ( mostly running gear ) is compatible with the old heritage cars of Amtrak ?.


The Coast Starlight requires 4 consists to operate. During part of the day, you will see two #11 and two #14 trains displayed on Amtrak Status maps. So once the first of five is shipped out, there are no protect PPCs. Which is probably the case much of the time anyway. I figure there must be people at Amtrak who really wish that the 6th PPC had been kept to support the CS.


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## domefoamer (Nov 23, 2014)

What, pray tell, about the PPC makes it so very maintenance intensive? I can't imagine. The car doesn't contain a toilet, which seems like the single most troublesome device onboard Amtrak equipment. It doesn't have the hardware and hinges of a sleeper, or the hot and cold and wet hardware required for a diner. Its air conditioning wouldn't usually face any extreme load, given the mild coastal and mountain climates it operates in. It would need wheel replacements, like any car, but aren't they standard wheelsets?. What else is there to go wrong?

Reminds me of my 1985 Scamp fiberglass camp trailer. It demands new tires every ten years and a new battery too often, but the number of other moving parts is so low that it seldom shows its 30 years of age. Fiberglass is a near-forever material, as is stainless steel.

One factor that may have given the PPC a bad rep is that it obtains non-strandard parts that are hard to source for replacement. Glass would have to be custom-made. But hasn't Amtrak had plenty of time to re-engineer out any obvious faults? I'm no expert-- these are only my best guesses.


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## neroden (Nov 23, 2014)

Actually, I suspect that the 1955 wheelsets are no longer standard. The gangways certainly aren't. And the PPC *does* contain cooking equipment, and a water supply. And then there's the electrical wiring...

Also, for some reason the Superliners have slightly higher floor levels than the Hi-Levels, making for the gangway mismatch which was mentioned earlier...



> One factor that may have given the PPC a bad rep is that it obtains non-strandard parts that are hard to source for replacement.


This. They're 60 years old, for crying out loud. The parts are probably *all* non-standard by now. With 50 Hi-Levels, it might be viable to maintain a parts supply for them. With only 5 (or even 6), they're a headache.

This is one reason why Amtrak got rid of its dome cars: *nobody* had a large uniform fleet of dome cars, so there were at most 6 identical of any one type; nonstandard all the way.


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## domefoamer (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks for that information. How did I forget about the kitchen? I ate meals from it six months ago. What do I know-- not what a gangway is, that's for sure.

Don't get me started on the dome cars; my screen name says all. Whatever it took to maintain them would have been worth it to me. But standardization isn't the answer to everything. When Amtrak converted several SSLs to Cross Country Cafes, they created a new non-standard car with its own equipment list.

In favor of the PPC, it would seem that any failure-prone parts would be well known by now, from experience, and their failure rates would be predictable. There shouldn't be any surprises left. And they're not roaming the continent on various routes, so they'd never be far from a qualified shop, I suppose. It's not like the days of the Rainbow Fleet, where dozens of varieties of cars might show up broken down at any point in the system.

If all we want is transportation, that could be provided by all-coach trains serving box lunches. That would return us to the passenger RR experience of, say, 120 years ago. If that happened, my interest in passenger trains would drop to zero. Trains rarely are the fastest way to go, and from my departure point in Denver, they never will be. If I'm going to travel that way, I want some amenities, and the PPC is about the best that today's Amtrak has to offer.


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## neroden (Nov 23, 2014)

Well, I guess I'm a bit different. I'm actually fine in a coach train with a sufficiently generous dining service... unless I have to sleep. I'm a very, very light sleeper so I need a compartment.

I do wish Amtrak would order a new set of single-level glasstops to replace the inadequate Amfleet lounge-cafes. Then they'd be standardized, you see.  The Superliner Sightseer Lounge is a very nice descendant of the Santa Fe Hi-Level Lounges, though I really do wish they could keep the swivels working on the swivel chairs (they're mostly broken).

There was at one time a definite case to be made for keeping *all* the Santa Fe Hi-Levels (there were originally over 70 of them, though only 6 lounges), which would have meant more spare parts and fleet commonality. But Amtrak didn't do that. 5 of the 6 lounges became the PPCs but all the coaches were sold long ago, and I think not all of them were even acquired by Amtrak in the first place.


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## creedential (Dec 5, 2014)

neroden said:


> Actually, I suspect that the 1955 wheelsets are no longer standard. The gangways certainly aren't. And the PPC *does* contain cooking equipment, and a water supply. And then there's the electrical wiring...
> 
> Also, for some reason the Superliners have slightly higher floor levels than the Hi-Levels, making for the gangway mismatch which was mentioned earlier...
> 
> ...


It seems Via does a pretty good job with their equipment from the same era. I am curious to know how many reserve Park and Skyline cars they do keep. Perhaps it is double their required consists now that their schedules are limited?


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

domefoamer said:


> When Amtrak converted several SSLs to Cross Country Cafes, they created a new non-standard car with its own equipment list.


I don't think any SSL's were converted, only Diners. The cars are not non-standard, they are standard superliners, with standard windows, doors, electrical, etc. etc. The only difference is cosmetic. If the PPC and the SIghtseer cars were identical except for the interiors (swivel chairs and a bar etc.) there wouldn't be an issue.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

creedential said:


> It seems Via does a pretty good job with their equipment from the same era. I am curious to know how many reserve Park and Skyline cars they do keep. Perhaps it is double their required consists now that their schedules are limited?


It's not really the era, it's the fact the PPC cars are so unique. As was mentioned earlier, if Amtrak had kept an entire fleet of hi-levels, this would be a different story.

VIA Rail has an entire fleet of BUDD Cars, they have all been updated and maintained by VIA in the same way. So yes the VIA cars are old, but they are a matching standard fleet.

I'm all for the PPC's - and hope they stay. But I realize this is a unique situation...


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 5, 2014)

The outfit in Illinois that gathered up many of the Hi-Levels seems to think they have a good future in store with a private or commuter operation as they have concepted some really nice interior upgrades for them.


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## jis (Dec 5, 2014)

With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

jis said:


> With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.


Seriously? Not following the Indiana thread I guess!


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## neroden (Dec 5, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> VIA Rail has an entire fleet of BUDD Cars, they have all been updated and maintained by VIA in the same way. So yes the VIA cars are old, but they are a matching standard fleet.


The VIA cars were also almost all from Canadian Pacific, so they were a matching set to start with. When they bought additional Budds, they carefully selected the ones which most closely matched the CP Budds, and rejected the oddballs.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> The outfit in Illinois that gathered up many of the Hi-Levels seems to think they have a good future in store with a private or commuter operation as they have concepted some really nice interior upgrades for them.


I think they really could make them work, but they'd have to be better capitalized -- basically they need to do the retrofitting in advance, on their own dime, before anyone will go for it. As California discovered with the Comet Ibs, reconditioning an old railroad car can have unexpected costs and unexpected delays (once you start tearing it apart, you find unexpected damage). No state wants to get into this and discover a large unexpected cost/delay halfway through.


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## jis (Dec 5, 2014)

The Brits in course of their privatization effort, sometimes indirectly, subsidized the so called ROSCOEs, the rail equipment leasing companies to get them on their feet starting from under-maintained equipment. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on ones point of view and inclination on such matters, it appears that such is unlikely in the US.


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## jis (Dec 5, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.
> ...


Nothing has happened there yet, and in case you followed what is being proposed there, they do not involve the cars in question here. So yes seriously

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

jis said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


The initial proposal DID involve the cars in question here, and it's the same company.


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## Ryan (Dec 5, 2014)

No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

RyanS said:


> No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.


"speculation" ? It was more than speculation. http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/chicago-company-is-finalist-to-operate-hoosier-state/article_2f29f00a-38f3-56c7-8b21-ebc48f93ad74.html this and many other articles clearly mentioned the hi-level cars when talking about CC's involvement. The CC's website is all about the hi-level cars, and it would seem that even the state of Indiana was surprised that the hi-levels would not be used.

EVEN if it was known all along that the hi-levels were not to be used my point still stands, the company that owns the hi-levels is being highly discussed in that thread and there seems to be many reasons NOT to do business with them.

As for the cars themselves, if they can be modified to be used in corridor service I think the plan to use them could work very well. I'm not sure the actual expense involved though.. and no one knows that... hence the problem.


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## jis (Dec 5, 2014)

The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## TVRM610 (Dec 5, 2014)

jis said:


> The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I never said they were a part of concrete proposal... are you even reading what i type? or are you just looking at ways to argue.

You said "With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys {starting} to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them."

there are no cars to use! no one actually knows how much it will cost to refurbish them. until they can provide an actual cost (not an estimate) it's no wonder the cars are not in use.

And I'm gonna go out on a limb here... I don't think there was ever anything in writing that said the INDOT service would be single-level cars. I think INDOT was led to believe there would be hi-levels ready for them until the contract was signed. Now that's just my speculation....


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 5, 2014)

Sounds like IDOT did a lot of assuming and you know what happens when you Ass U Me!!!


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## jis (Dec 5, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.
> ...


Funny that is exactly what I thought you ere doing  


> You said "With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys {starting} to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them."


Yes, and there has been none  so that statement is still true. And yet you somehow came to the conclusion that there had been and suggested that I had not been keeping track of what was going on in Indiana!
Anyway, if you wish, rant away. I am done with this silly sub thread. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ryan (Dec 5, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.
> ...


That looks like nothing but speculation to me.

All on has to do is look at their website to see that it would have been impossible for them to use the hi-levels for the Indiana service:



> Before selling or leasing them to a passenger-rail operator, Corridor Capital will totally rebuild them, “tubing out” each car so that only the body shell and the truck assemblies are retained. Everything else—air-brake systems, window glass and seals, heating and air conditioning, plumbing, electrical systems, flooring, seats, public-information systems, wheels, suspension, interior surfaces and fabrics, will be replaced with the latest contemporary technology and materials. The cars will be virtually indistinguishable from, and interoperable with, the “Next Generation” bi-level railcars financed by the 2009 American Recovery & Reinvestment Act.


Note the future tense. That wasn't going to happen on the timeline for Indiana, so Jishnu's statement that they haven't been involved in a concrete proposal holds true, and your implication that they were a part of the Indiana proposal is obviously false.

Like Jishnu, I'm done.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Dec 5, 2014)

And I thought this topic was about the Pacific Parlour cars on the Coast Starlight.


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## afigg (Dec 6, 2014)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> And I thought this topic was about the Pacific Parlour cars on the Coast Starlight.


Yes, it has taken a rather odd detour into Indiana and the soap opera (popcorn flick?) that now surrounds the Hoosier State which have nothing to do with the PPCs.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 6, 2014)

Hey, its AU and Amtrak, that's our SOP here!!!


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## SteveSFL (Dec 7, 2014)

The amtrak service notice says that while the PPC's are out of service passengers will still be able to enjoy the dining car and the SSL. I wonder if this means that there will be a regular SSL and then another SSL for sleeper passengers only as happens when a PPC is bad ordered or if there will only be one SSL on the train for use by everyone. I suspect only one SSL since Amtrak probably doesn't have enough extra SSL's to replace all the PPC's at once.


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## Yumacool (Dec 9, 2014)

Some interesting comments about PPCs here. In my case, my wife and I have ridden the Coast Starlight a couple times each year ever since Amtrak began using the Hi-level lounge on the CS as a first class lounge. The cars first went into service on the CS in the condition they had been in for many years, but spruced up a bit. Only later did Amtrak fully renovate the interior into the configuration in use today.

Regarding usage of the swivel chairs, it is true that some people try to hog them. I've seen passengers leave things behind on the seat while they go off to the diner. Most of the time, however, one can find a seat or two -- except when passing through spectacular scenery. Regarding attendents, quality varies. Some go out of their way to create a nice atmosphere in the car and to sell their products. Some do as little as possible. One time I rode the CS and a CCC was substituted for the PPS -- the attendent spent a great deal of time on her smart phone on that trip. It should be obvious to management by the totals of what people sell, who is putting out effort. The "duds" sell little but seem to get away with it. Attendants also need to remind travelers that the swivel seats are not reserved and are for the enjoyment of everyone.

Both my wife and I feel the PPC adds a huge amount to the trip. The CS is one of Amtrak's most scenic trains and I've met other passengers from around the nation and world making a point of riding it. New ideas are necessary to optimize the car's potential, but I would never recommend giving up on it. The idea of business class seating might be worth exploring as there is definitely a market there waiting for Amtrak to exploit. The steam table also needs to be removed. The meal program seems like a good idea and brings revenue to the car. l know I'm beating a dead horse here, but management needs to ensure a consistent level of service in each car and attendent to ensure quality from ride to ride.


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2015)

A reminder that the Pacific Parlour Cars are still scheduled to be out of service for maintenance between this coming Monday, January 12, and March 12.

A post on Facebook's Coast Starlight group shows passengers boarding train 14 in a steady rain this evening. Winning comment:



> The gods are crying because the PPCs are going on hiatus.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 10, 2015)

Spotters need to keep an eye out for these next week as they make the trip to Indiana; I wonder if they will be consolidated in one place and all 5 moved together or some will move out from SEA and the others from LAX?


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## Eris (Jan 11, 2015)

I'll be boarding the PPCless #14 in Seattle on Monday (I'll be in coach).


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> I'll be boarding the PPCless #14 in Seattle on Monday (I'll be in coach).


Hopefully you'll have a Sightseer Lounge instead of a CCC on your train!


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## PaulM (Jan 11, 2015)

I just rode in a PPC on 11; an it looks like the nickel and diming, win by cutting service has affected them also. As we were boarding in Davis, I heard the attendant announcing that he had to turn away customers for breakfast in the parlour car, using the euphemism "sold out". Later, by the time he reached us in the middle of the 3 sleepers taking reservations for lunch, the parlour car was all booked up. We were particularly disappointed because we had come all the way out west on the CZ from Illinois; and as you know, the number of selections offered in the dining car for a given meal nationwide can be counted on one hand. I felt sorry for the attendant having to apologize for such cheesiness.

Apparently, a lot of people complained, because later he announced that a few penny pasta dishes (PPC's version of the EB's Dinty Moore?) would be available. I enjoyed it.


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## OBS (Jan 11, 2015)

It will be even more interesting to see if they really DO go to Indiana, rather than just sit in Sea and Lax and have "nothing" done to them


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## Anderson (Jan 11, 2015)

PaulM said:


> I just rode in a PPC on 11; an it looks like the nickel and diming, win by cutting service has affected them also. As we were boarding in Davis, I heard the attendant announcing that he had to turn away customers for breakfast in the parlour car, using the euphemism "sold out". Later, by the time he reached us in the middle of the 3 sleepers taking reservations for lunch, the parlour car was all booked up. We were particularly disappointed because we had come all the way out west on the CZ from Illinois; and as you know, the number of selections offered in the dining car for a given meal nationwide can be counted on one hand. I felt sorry for the attendant having to apologize for such cheesiness.
> 
> Apparently, a lot of people complained, because later he announced that a few penny pasta dishes (PPC's version of the EB's Dinty Moore?) would be available. I enjoyed it.


There are two things that jam up the PPC's food situation. One is the fact that I _think_ the food is mostly or all loaded in LAX and has to be distributed over all the seatings (two lunches, two dinners, and a breakfast). The other is that there are only about 12-18 seats available at lunch or dinner, so it really isn't uncommon for the PPC to sell out (particularly in California...I basically had to tactically position myself to get seats in the PPC on a few occasions over Christmas). Even if you bumped that to 24 (two full seatings) that might well be 24 seats versus 3-4 times that many sleeper passengers.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 11, 2015)

A "trick" I quickly learned to get a Meal Seat in the PPC is to be _*IN *_the PPC when the Lead starts his or her rounds as often they will start first in the PPC and then head up to the Sleepers.


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## saturn04 (Jan 11, 2015)

I hope is back by March 16th!


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## Eris (Jan 11, 2015)

I am unclear if Amtrak plans to put a sightseer lounge in place of the PPC... I hope so, or us plebes in coach are going to have to... share... our lounge car with *sleeper passengers* (ugh!).

There are still plenty of low-bucket coach seats available for the sea-lax run tomorrow so I'm hopeful it will not be as crowded a trip as lax-sea was last Monday.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> I am unclear if Amtrak plans to put a sightseer lounge in place of the PPC... I hope so, or *us plebes in coach are going to have to... share... our lounge car with *sleeper passengers* (ugh!).*
> 
> There are still plenty of low-bucket coach seats available for the sea-lax run tomorrow so I'm hopeful it will not be as crowded a trip as lax-sea was last Monday.


:giggle:


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> I am unclear if Amtrak plans to put a sightseer lounge in place of the PPC... I hope so, or us plebes in coach are going to have to... share... our lounge car with *sleeper passengers* (ugh!).
> 
> There are still plenty of low-bucket coach seats available for the sea-lax run tomorrow so I'm hopeful it will not be as crowded a trip as lax-sea was last Monday.


Since this is Off Season for travel youy should have plenty of room and possibly a very good chance of having a 2 Pack to yourself most if not all the trip.


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## Eris (Jan 11, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Eris said:
> 
> 
> > I am unclear if Amtrak plans to put a sightseer lounge in place of the PPC... I hope so, or us plebes in coach are going to have to... share... our lounge car with *sleeper passengers* (ugh!).
> ...


Thanks, my past experience agrees with you- I travel with two kids, so we generally are given four across and rarely get a fourth, and then usually only someone on a short day run. The worst was getting a seatmate in the middle of the night (in Redding or so, southbound), and second worst was last Monday when I had a seatmate upon boarding in Simi Valley, both of us going all the way to Seattle. I thought Jan 5 was into offseason, but I was clearly mistaken.


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## William W. (Jan 11, 2015)

At the very least, Amtrak needs to put a CCC on while the PPC is out of service. A SSL would be nice, but I don't think that there's enough in the fleet to do that.


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## Anderson (Jan 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Eris said:
> ...


Jan. 5 wasn't really into the off-season this year due to how New Years' fell. Basically, you do tend to get a lot of travel spilling off of major holiday seasons by a day or two (so expect the Monday after New Years' to be a bit packed) since some folks will opt to travel then since fares aren't as crazy and/or they opted to book at the last minute and that was the only availability.

IIRC I did some poking around on fares, and in mid-December or thereabouts it wasn't until the middle of that week (i.e. the 7th or 8th) that fares were more "sane". Part of this was probably AGR spillover from blackout dates into that Monday, but part of it was doubtlessly the fact that folks with flexible travel dates will kick their trips over by a day or two to dodge the crowds...sort of creating a crowd of their own.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 11, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> A "trick" I quickly learned to get a Meal Seat in the PPC is to be _*IN *_the PPC when the Lead starts his or her rounds as often they will start first in the PPC and then head up to the Sleepers.


The last time I rode (over a year ago) the PPC attendant was very clear in his announcements that he would begin in the sleepers and only after he went through the sleepers would he check if anyone in the lounge wanted reservations. I can't remember his name but he was excellent, he also made it clear that the purple chairs could not be reserved and were strictly first come first serve. All of this was done in a professional way... I ate every meal I could in the PPC car on that trip.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 11, 2015)

Every time Ive ridden I was able to sign up before the Train even left Union Station except last October on the way to the Gathering where we were shut out from eating lunch and dinner in the PPC!( there was no announcement nor opportunity to sign up even offered)

When we inquired why this was the less than pleasant attendant said that she reserved spots for a group that was traveling together and that SHE decided who ate in the Parlor Car, NOT us!!!

I contacted CR when I got home and received an apology and a nice Voucher!

Unfortunately the attendant has enough Seniority to keep her spot but hopefully will be bumped to Coach Attendant or Yard Worker when the PPC are pulled for " maintence" this week!!.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 11, 2015)

TVRM610 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > A "trick" I quickly learned to get a Meal Seat in the PPC is to be _*IN *_the PPC when the Lead starts his or her rounds as often they will start first in the PPC and then head up to the Sleepers.
> ...


In my cases it was the Diner Lead who handled reservations for both the Diner and PPC and when he/she came into the PPC heading towards the Sleepers went ahead and got us taken care of since we were technically already in the Sleeper. Breakfast for the PPC was handled First Come/First Served and there were never any stampedes; I often ate Breakfast in the Diner since I wanted to gut up on that good Omlette and Trimmings.


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## SP&S (Jan 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> I am unclear if Amtrak plans to put a sightseer lounge in place of the PPC... I hope so, or us plebes in coach are going to have to... share... our lounge car with *sleeper passengers* (ugh!).
> 
> There are still plenty of low-bucket coach seats available for the sea-lax run tomorrow so I'm hopeful it will not be as crowded a trip as lax-sea was last Monday.


Don't want to have to associate with the "great washed", eh? 

Seriously the PPC's have looked like they had some deferred maintenance issues. May they fix 'em up and get them rolling again.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 12, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


I'm sure every crew has their own way... that's the Amtrak spirit! Even though the selection was minimal I really enjoyed Breakfast in the PPC... I was connecting to the Empire Builder so I knew I would have plenty of chances for the "standards" so i took the opportunity to enjoy the PPC. As far as I know.. the Coast Starlight is the only regular service that offered such a first class dining experience. What I mean is private table for your party only... that along with the lovely PPC ambiance was a really special thing. I'm glad I got to do it when I could.. I have doubts that we will see the PPC's return as they were... but here's hoping!


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## tomfuller (Jan 12, 2015)

Took the CS from CMO to Eugene and return Friday. There was a PPC on both trains. The return trip had the Willamette Valley.

I was in coach so I didn't get to see if the PPC cars were refurbished on the interior.


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## rrdude (Jan 12, 2015)

They have NOT YET come off for scheduled refurbs......


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## Eris (Jan 12, 2015)

Sitting in Seattle in car 1111. Parlour car is on the train.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 12, 2015)

It looks and sounds like maybe they are going to pool them all into LAX, tie them together and run them to Beech Grove via the _*Chief*_ and _*Cardinal*_. Hopefully that is the plan and they do not end up getting dropped somewhere never to be seen again!


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## MrFSS (Jan 12, 2015)

Some years ago I was at BG and they had a PPC in being completely overhauled. Funny looking with no paint on it.


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## CHamilton (Jan 12, 2015)

Looks rather like the original! (Image courtesy Steve Hart on the Facebook Coast Starlight group.)


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 12, 2015)

I have an original of the Postcard shown above and it doesn't take long to come up with some rather colorful captions for what is going on with the various pax. Take the lady in yellow looking down at her Cowboy Boyfriend who just deposited her on the train and is already making a move. And as Robert De Niro questions in _*Ronin*_ "What's in the Case?"


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 12, 2015)

Nice pics! As one who got to ride in the original on the Santa Fe El Cap (all Coach) and as a PPC on the Starlight, I'll take the current version!

Sure hope we see them again come Spring, it'd be a shame if Tom had to snap pics of them rotting away on some back track @ Beech Grove!


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## surfgeek (Jan 12, 2015)

Pacific Parlour Cars are coming off the Coast Starlight (11 and 14) by the middle of this week, will be gone until mid-March and unless a last-minute change occurs, will not be replaced in the trains' consists until they return in March. 11/14 new consist: Engines (2), Heritage baggage car, sleepers (2), diner, SSL, coach, coach/bag. The coach/bag might get replaced with a regular coach is need arises.


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## neroden (Jan 12, 2015)

Does anyone know why fluting / corrugation was put on cars (such as these)? I've always wondered what the point was. It seems an odd sort of decoration.


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## Dalex (Jan 15, 2015)

The Fluting and Corrugation are part of the structure of the car. To make metal stronger and lighter it is corrugated; thin on the roof and broadly on the side walls. The Fluting is made of decorative inserts to turn the rectilinear corrugations into more pleasing curved flutes.


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## desertflyer (Jan 17, 2015)

Just saw train 14 at Emeryville with no PP car. Was a bit strange. I'll be happy to see them back in service.


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## Metra Electric Guest (Jan 19, 2015)

Dalex said:


> The Fluting and Corrugation are part of the structure of the car. To make metal stronger and lighter it is corrugated; thin on the roof and broadly on the side walls. The Fluting is made of decorative inserts to turn the rectilinear corrugations into more pleasing curved flutes.


It also helps prevent "oil canning" - flat metal will have a kind of, um, don't quite know how to describe it in writing, distortion when a load is put on it (in addition to strength issues). It will distort and look like it's damaged, hence corrugation also has an aesthetic function over and above the functional, in addition to the original streamlined origins. It may also hide dirt, remember when Mercedes used to have fluted taillights and their justification was it kept them cleaner.


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## fixj (Jan 19, 2015)

The Heartland Flyer was using old SantaFe El Cap coaches when they first started running. and the Texas Eagle crew car (they called it the 10 car) used to be an old SantaFe El Cap car.







First car in the consest


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## spacecadet (Jan 19, 2015)

Metra Electric Guest said:


> It may also hide dirt, remember when Mercedes used to have fluted taillights and their justification was it kept them cleaner.


I like the look of fluted sides but I always thought it must actually get *dirtier* than flat sided cars. More nooks and crannies, harder to scrub the dirt off, and in a rinse the dirt just settles back into the crevasses. If you look at pics of Amtrak's fluted-side cars even in the early 70's, they already looked hopelessly dirty compared to when they ran on their original railroads just a couple years before, whereas their flat-sided cars seem cleaner even now. That stripped PPC above still looks pretty dirty even though the paint's been stripped off and I'll bet it's had a full bath.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 19, 2015)

Has there been any sign of The Five moving east yet?


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## Eris (Jan 19, 2015)

FWIW (and I'd say it's not really worth much or I'd have mentioned it sooner), the coach attendant, standing with a conductor, told me the cars would stay in Los Angeles for the work that was going to be done, when I asked about them going to Beech Grove.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 19, 2015)

Eris said:


> FWIW (and I'd say it's not really worth much or I'd have mentioned it sooner), the coach attendant, standing with a conductor, told me the cars would stay in Los Angeles for the work that was going to be done, when I asked about them going to Beech Grove.


Unless LAX has some heavy duty Coach Maintenance Facility it sounds like it will be "lighter" work if that is the case, though they probably could do a quick rebuild of the interiors. I figured they would want to send them to Beech Grove and gut them down to the carcass for a "D-Check"


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## neroden (Jan 19, 2015)

The history of the fluting is interesting. I guess modern metalworking techniques have rendered the technical benefits obsolete, since it simply isn't being done any more.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 20, 2015)

neroden said:


> The history of the fluting is interesting. I guess modern metalworking techniques have rendered the technical benefits obsolete, since it simply isn't being done any more.


The lower half of the Viewliner, including the new series is fluted


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## Metra Electric Guest (Jan 20, 2015)

spacecadet said:


> Metra Electric Guest said:
> 
> 
> > It may also hide dirt, remember when Mercedes used to have fluted taillights and their justification was it kept them cleaner.
> ...





spacecadet said:


> Metra Electric Guest said:
> 
> 
> > It may also hide dirt, remember when Mercedes used to have fluted taillights and their justification was it kept them cleaner.
> ...


I'm suspicious of that claim too... But some things just look dirty no matter what.

BTW the photo of the locomotive fixj posted show an example of oil-canning on the flat metal sides - notice how they are just a bit wavy?


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## jis (Jan 20, 2015)

It is not clear why Amtrak chose to use fluting on the Viewliners. One thing that is does is increase manufacturing and maintenance cost.


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## Ryan (Jan 20, 2015)

Forget the oil-canning, I want to know the story behind the pink flamingo on the nose of the locomotive.


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## CHamilton (Jan 20, 2015)

Breaking news.



> WASHINGTON, D.C.--Amtrak has announced that, in a cost-cutting move, they are removing the "U" from the Pacific Parlour Cars. Amtrak CEO Joseph Boardman made the announcement today in a letter to the leaders of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
> 
> "As you know, these cars are currently out of service undergoing maintenance, and are scheduled to return in March," Mr Boardman said. "During this work, we will be replacing all signage and reprinting menus and other ancillary materials. It has been decided that we can take this opportunity to excise unneeded vowels from the cars' names. We anticipate that we will save Amtrak $10.6 million in this way. In addition, we will move to standard orthography, as required by the Spell American Act."
> 
> Not everyone is pleased with the change. The executive director of the Friends of American Motive and Electrical Railways, E. M. Frimbo, said, "This is just another attempt to nickel and dime passenger rail service down to the level of air and bus travel. We here at FOAMER will fight the willful removal of our beloved "U"s from the Parlour Cars."


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## tricia (Jan 20, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> Breaking news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the humor! (Or should that be humour?)


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## George K (Jan 20, 2015)

"FOAMER" - The Federation of Amtrak Members Ever Riding"

For those of you who didn't know.


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## rickycourtney (Jan 20, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> Breaking news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 20, 2015)

In a related story, Rep. Mica R- FL, announced hearings to investigate who authorized this since the idea didn't come from him!

Also he wants to know if the workersxare eating $25 Amburgers

while performing this work!


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## Ryan (Jan 20, 2015)

rickycourtney said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Breaking news.
> ...


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## CHamilton (Jan 20, 2015)

> WASHINGTON--In a followup to our earlier story, our sources have now revealed more details on the Pacific Parlour Cars' planned maintenance. The plans originally called for removal of the famed purple swivel chairs, but, our source revealed, "we found out that a highly-placed Norfolk Southern employee was adamantly opposed to these changes, and we can't afford to **** off anybody in the Class Is these days."


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## Dalex (Jan 20, 2015)

Thoughts on Fluting, Corrugation, and Tail Lights:

Preventing "Oil Canning" was indeed another benefit of corrugation.

On a technical note Amfleet, Superliners, and Viewliners are not "Fluted" they are only corrugated. Fluting connotes a concave curve between the peaks, usually achieved by an insert between the rolled structural corrugations. Some Union Pacific cars had flat inserts instead of fluting installed in the corrugation so that the cars would match their smooth sided non-stainless steel cars. Modern cars use flat rolled sides, with attendant "Oil Canning" and forsake the extra cost and complication of aesthetics of proper fluting.

Mercedes used deeply corrugated lenses in the 1970's and 80's on the premise that road mud and dirt would not penetrate the deep grooves allowing light to sow.


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## Wick (Jan 21, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> > WASHINGTON--In a followup to our earlier story, our sources have now revealed more details on the Pacific Parlour Cars' planned maintenance. The plans originally called for removal of the famed purple swivel chairs, but, our source revealed, "we found out that a highly-placed Norfolk Southern employee was adamantly opposed to these changes, and we can't afford to **** off anybody in the Class Is these days."


And don't "U" forget it!


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## andersone (Jan 21, 2015)

Beyound my comprehension


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## SanDiegan (Jan 21, 2015)

Just saw three PPC's at 8th St. yard in L.A. Looked like they were in line for maintenance.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 21, 2015)

Hopefully they'll get a good going over, not " Chicago" treatment!

Wonder where the other two are??


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