# LD Train Travel Then vs now



## dlagrua (Jan 8, 2011)

Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?

From reading many books on the subject it appears that the main changes are that todays trains are rather stark and utilitarian. If you look at pictures of say the 20th Century Limited, you will see the use of beautiful hardwoods, wooden furniture, nice carpeting, venetian blinds, lovely curtains and the crews were impecibly dressed (as where the passengers). The dining cars offered wider and more gourmet food choices and it was common to see a whilte tablecloth and a vase of fresh flowers on the table. In the dining cars tables and chairs were used instead of the booths that we now see but the sleepers (except for the Pullman section cars) appear very much as they did back in the day. I determined this after touring many of the old sleeping cars at many RR museums and riding on tourist trains. Trains during the 30's, 40's and 50's also had more than one observation car, a lounge and many had two dining cars. It appeared that train travel was far more elegant back then but it had to be as fares were fixed by the government and railroads had to compete for business by offering better amemities. Today while the glamour is gone we at least have something to enjoy the experience

If there is anyone here who has researched the subject or had the opportunity to expereince travel during that period please share your experience.


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## MrFSS (Jan 8, 2011)




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## PRR 60 (Jan 8, 2011)

I rode several of the better trains of the day back in 1963 on a trek around the country in coach: The PRR "General", the California Zephyr, The SP "Lark", and the ATSF "El Capitan." I was also an avid railfan back then and spent many an hour at North Philadelphia Station watching the parade of trains come through. Here are some general thoughts:

The quality of rail travel was very uneven. The best trains were better than anything today. The lesser trains were much worse than Amtrak. For every elegant train like the Broadway Limited there were multiple trains like the Manhattan Limited that were pretty ratty. The PRR General was kind of in between. It was OK, but a Amfleet II or Superliner coach would be better. The California Zephyr and the El Capitan were as good as it gets, at least in coach.

The coach travel on the CZ and the El Capitan was much better than Amtrak coach. On the CZ, each coach had about 48 seats, and each had a dome section with 24 open seats for those 48 passengers. I spent hours up in that dome, day and night. Each car had bathroom facilities under the dome, and the men's and women's rooms were large with multiple stalls, multiple sinks, and chairs for dressing.

The onboard service was quite different than today. Racial relations through the 1960's were not at all like today. The porters of the era were almost exclusively African-American and were more like servants than passenger service personnel. Same with the dining car staffs. Rail travel on the better trains was a social throw-back kind of locked in the 1930's south.

Dining car food was much better than today. The meals were more varied and more reflective of the owning railroad and region. And, of course, everything was prepared on-board.

The trains had unique personalities. The California Zephyr could not be mistaken for The El Capitan. The General could not be mistaken for The Lark. Excepting for the top eastern trains like the Broadway and the 20th Century Limited, the trains west of Chicago were much better than the trains east of Chicago.

Maybe the biggest difference between then and now is financial. All travel back then was expensive. Frequent travelers had to be wealthy. For middle class folks, travel was something you saved years to do. The adult round trip fare in coach for my journey in 1963 was $180. That equals $1300 today. Including family discounts, we paid about $400, or about $3000 in 2011 dollars. Pullman would have at least tripled that cost. We could not deal with that.

In short, some things were better then, and some are better now. The big plus today is that hopping on a train and taking a trip does not require you to be John Paul Getty or Bill Gates.


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## Tumbleweed (Jan 8, 2011)

PRR 60 said:


> Maybe the biggest difference between then and now is financial. All travel back then was expensive. Frequent travelers had to be wealthy. For middle class folks, travel was something you saved years to do. The adult round trip fare in coach for my journey in 1963 was $180. That equals $1300 today. Including family discounts, we paid about $400, or about $3000 in 2011 dollars. Pullman would have at least tripled that cost. We could not deal with that.
> 
> In short, some things were better then, and some are better now. The big plus today is that hopping on a train and taking a trip does not require you to be John Paul Getty or Bill Gates.


Especially if you have enough AGR points......


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 8, 2011)

A huge subject.

Some things which are better today: showers, computerized reservations (of course that goes with the culture),food available in the lounge car, trays in the coaches, consistent leg rests in the long distance coaches, working with one company (NOTE:a very few showers existed, I am mean very few).

What do I miss most, as a railfan? The great variety of kinds of trains and kinds of equipment. As PRR said you would never confuse the General with the Lark. Of course one of the places where many trains looked about alike in the old days was in the NE corrider. But there were exceptions even there. Such as the stainless steel Senator and Congressional.

Wide difference in quality. For example, the premier streamlined Crescent and the Southerner took about 14 hours to go from

Washington to Atlanta. But over the same route there was a nameless local, #135 and #136, which made over 110 stops, many of them flags, and took 24 hours and had no diner, lounge or sleeper.There were three other train sort of in between those extremes.

I could multiply that by a thousand examples.

Trains with lightweight equipment (often stainless steel) and with faster schedules, nicer equipment were generally called streamliners. I say that because I think some people think all the trains were streamliners in the "streamlined era" but that is not so. More like about one third. Today every single train is lightweight, which has rendered the word "streaminer: as useless. Sort of like advertising them as "air conditioned" or having "reclining seats", or being "diesel powered" (outside the NE corrider, that is).

I tend to agree that the best was better than Amtrak and the worst was worse.

There were many more things like set out sleepers, such things as happens with the Sunset Limited and the Texas Eagle in San Antonio. All those kinds of switching happened much more, percentage wise and were fascinating to us fans.

Back to those slow trains, keep in mind that many of them carried much much mail,including first class letters, way more than anything that has happened under Amtrak.

Then again, it hard to beat a bedroom (with shower) upstairs in today's Superliner equipment, even if they all look substantially alike (I am not talking about curtains,slight details in the room,etc).

Several things have been mentioned recently about various designs for lounge cars and such. Keep in mind that there were many kinds of sleeping cars, also, besides 10 roomettes and six bedrooms, those were rather common and Amtrak settled on them for uniformity.

As for levels of courtesy, etc, that is so subjective and I can think of so many instances either way between the railroads and Amtrak.

Without question, there were more,sometimes many more trains. But they were most assuredly not all deluxe streamliners of the Super Chief ilk!! No way!!


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## Anderson (Jan 8, 2011)

PRR 60 said:


> Maybe the biggest difference between then and now is financial. All travel back then was expensive. Frequent travelers had to be wealthy. For middle class folks, travel was something you saved years to do. The adult round trip fare in coach for my journey in 1963 was $180. That equals $1300 today. Including family discounts, we paid about $400, or about $3000 in 2011 dollars. Pullman would have at least tripled that cost. We could not deal with that.


Ok, this is an interesting point because of what happened to airfares: I seem to recall that a coach airline ticket in 1960 from NYC-LA back then was about $250...which is over $2000 today. Today, a last-minute airfare is $700-800 on that route, but with a few weeks' notice you can get a round trip ticket on that route for under $300, fees included.

Edit: Viewing the Super Chief video, the only "real" difference I've noted in how I'd be traveling is the lounge car situation. The food is still excellent (short of an ultra-expensive steakhouse, I'll recommend an Amtrak steak over just about anywhere else) and the roomette shown in the video is not unlike the first roomette I had on the Lake Shore Limited a few years back (which still had the toilet and sink facilities included).


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## Larry H. (Jan 8, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the biggest difference between then and now is financial. All travel back then was expensive. Frequent travelers had to be wealthy. For middle class folks, travel was something you saved years to do. The adult round trip fare in coach for my journey in 1963 was $180. That equals $1300 today. Including family discounts, we paid about $400, or about $3000 in 2011 dollars. Pullman would have at least tripled that cost. We could not deal with that.
> ...



Gee, I almost hate to comment here, but I don't have that recollection at all. We often went first class and the price never seemed high. I was not making any money then and don't now, but it was a lot easier to afford a sleeper then and the service and foods were normally much better. Recently someone put up the fare schedule here for the trip between New York and Chicago. It showed that the sleeper fares averaged "half" more than the coach fare. If they hadn't been quite reasonable I could never have afforded them. Now that same room with much less service and style cost from five to 10 times and more than a coach fare. I still don't find it reasonable. Plus if you went as a family the wife and children often paid half the fare and and the charge for the room was half the cost per person compared to the way amtrak now figures it. It used to be if you purchased a bedroom the cost was the same for one person or two. Now the fare is charged as if two are using the room even if your by your self. I used to go parlor car to chicago frequently on the GM&O, the cost was only a few dollars more than a coach seat. Even in the worst of times that Ann Rutledge train served a fine breakfast and other meals with high standards. I know some did not and I rode those as well. I will comment more on that on a different post.


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## Larry H. (Jan 8, 2011)

The most noticeable thing about the streamliners of the 50's was the wonderful difference in the exteriors. The great looking streamline engines with a long row of domes in many cases colored exteriors, you could tell the company by the outside in many cases. I loved the City of St. Louis with its gold striped exterior, always carried a couple domes and lounges with fine deep blue mohair sofas and chairs, writing tables an a book case with postcards. The first class lounge had it own dome, card room underneath and the seating area with sofas and chairs nicely arranged to the rear. The sleeping section was run by Pullman not the railroad and it had its own conductor and car attendants. You never had to load your luggage or remove it your self, it was always done for you. Shoes were shined overnight by putting them in a little box sort of affair that opened to the hallway. The cars were solid and well constructed, not all the duct taped cabinets and falling off doors you see today. Another change which is a sign of the times is that many passengers dressed up, but then they did that to go to the grocery store or department store as well. People were considerate and thus the cars remained neat and quiet. No cell phones and everyone talking at once all around. The food was prepared fresh on board. The diners usually had etched glass panels and individual chairs with white linens and company china and sliver. When the City combined with the same from Chicago going to Los Angles it had a diner in the dome in that section.

I rode the Empire Builder the day they put up the pending turn over of the train to Amtrak. It was a dark green consist with four sleepers, two lounges, dinner, cafe car and five coaches with domes throughout. The most impressive thing about that train was that all the cars had a western theme with western scenes tastefully painted into the car designs. The coaches as was the custom had very large restrooms for both sexes with seating areas and a row of sinks and stalls. The down side to that trip was the fact that the company was pretending to have sold out trains and made reservations nearly impossible until one boarded and discovered an empty train. Just one of the techniques used at the end by companies who wanted a reason to be allowed to drop the service. On board during that trip was the Auditor for the railroad, his wife said they were told the same thing when thirty days out they tried to make a reservation and were told the train was sold out.

Each company that cared, and for a while many did, the trains were a way of pride in the overall company. I know some think its nuts that a railroad might want to run a passenger operation and yet many companies spend many millions of dollars for super bowl ads for a 60 second spot. It used to be a way to build good will for the public. I am not totally convinced that couldn't still be the case. Each company had its premiere trains and its locals or short distance. Those were not always nearly as well operated, but the companies that cared often still ran trains for short distances that carried a full diner and lounge on many routes. Often with a parlor car as well. The Green Diamond of the Illinois Central comes to mind there. I also took a fateful ride on the Wabash Cannon Ball to Chicago and it was a once grand day train that showed the neglect by the company. The drapes were falling off the windows, the cars were less than clean and food not very good. The worst part is they had lovely fan tail parlor car on the rear. It became habit for them to tack a freight car on the back of it in springfield which of course ruined the effect of the rounded read end.

I also rode from New York City at christmas ( can't recall the name for sure) New York Central perhaps. It was dreadful, that was in 1960. No water in the cars to drink. very poor food, frozen up windows the whole trip, no reclining seats in coach, in general the worst trip I had ever taken. All tactics to make things look worse than they were.

I think the things I miss the most is the anticipation of riding a name train and knowing its a unique experience. Something about getting off the Amtrak Version of the Empire Builder in Chicago and Boarding the Capitol Limited or the City of New Orleans an never know you boarded a different train. I know its foreign to the younger people today and many think these things are not important, but they were at one time for sure. People used to enjoy a decorative and attractive environment and it wasn't considered luxury as many today seem to feel, it was simply the way things were done. A comparison might be that movie theaters of the earlier days were never considered something for the rich, but were one after the other more elaborate all in an attempt to attract the public.


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## rile42 (Jan 8, 2011)

I used to take the Clevelander and the Penn Texas from North Philly station to Ohio with my family from the 50's to the early 60's. Most of the time we went coach using my dad's PRR employee's pass. In coach, we used to turn seats around so our family always sat together facing each other (not legal now I think I heard someone say). The restrooms in coach were much roomier. I seem to remember there being small couches in them.

Both trains used GG1's to Harrisburg where the were switched to E or F units I think. While there, a person would come onto the train with a cart that had sandwiches, candy, chips etc. for those in coach to purchase.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 8, 2011)

As one who is old enough to have experienced a few of the pre-Amtrak trains (mostly mail trains and milk runs but also The Sunset Ltd., the MoPac Eagle and the Broadway limited), my best memory involves the difference between the Steam engines vs. the Diesel Transition, Diesels were considered a step up by most people but little did they know that Steamers would always have the hearts of most riders!

Some newbies/younger folks dont know that you used to have to Pay Extra for the food in the diner and while it wasnt expensive per se, as other posters have pointed out the rail fares on extra fare trains were pricey for the times! Coach fare was very cheap but the comfort level was way below todays Amtrak and as Bill H pointed out showers were VERY rare!

Of course if you look at the videos and pictures from those times people dressed up to travel also so wearing a suit and tie or nice dress to the diner was pretty much what one did!

I also remember that conductors tended to be older but perhaps thats cause I was a kid, and seemed like most were more friendly than todays as a rule! Even though it's generalizing I also remember that the OBS also seemed to provide better service and seemed to always be around, they didnt vanish like some do today! Im glad we have Amtrak, overall Id say were comparing apple to oranges but still thrilled I got to ride in both eras! These are the good old days, ride a train while you can!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 8, 2011)

One point I forgot to stress was the differences between the 50's and the 60's. Meaning most of what was better than Amtrak was earlier. Then as things got more sour for the railroads standards went way below those of today on some lines.

Streamlining,diesel power, etc was just beginning before WW2. Then production stopped during the war.Then after the war ended in the mid 40's the railroads went all out ordering new equipment. It was too little, too late.

But most railroads tried to give good service until the mid 50's. Then as competition from improved airlines,the interstate highway system and loss of the mail contract made the passenger business look very bleak.

Thus many of the railroads became, so to speak, "freight railroads".


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## FriskyFL (Jan 8, 2011)

It appears that just about everybody in those YouTube videos had a cigarette; I can imagine how smoky those lounge cars must have been. At least in that regard, Amtrak is a huge improvement.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 8, 2011)

Mordac said:


> It appears that just about everybody in those YouTube videos had a cigarette; I can imagine how smoky those lounge cars must have been. At least in that regard, Amtrak is a huge improvement.


That and random cameras don't pop up in LAUS with an omniscient voice to advise you on travel.


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## JayPea (Jan 8, 2011)

I rode a few pre-Amtrak trains as a young boy, in the mid '60's, and though I don't remember too much, there are a few memories I do have. One is that on a trip to Chicago from Spokane on the Empire Builder, how rough the ride was, both directions. It seems we were always thrown around. And virtually all the EB staff was African-American, and as I recall were helpful, cheeful, always had a smile on their faces, and were eager and happy to serve you. The tables in the dining car had real china, real silverware, linen napkins and tablecloths, and napkin rings. One thing I don't remember but my mother does, is they also had small bowls with water, used for dipping your fingers in. I didn't know any better and picked one of those bowls up and drank out of it. :blink: :blink:

And in general I remember the different lines and the colors of their trains. Spokane, for instance, had the Great Northern, with its green and orange for the Empire Builder, the Northern Pacific, with its two-tone green, and the Union Pacific, with its bright yellow cars and red lettering. I don't recall the color scheme of the S P & S (Spokane, Portland, and Seattle) railroad's cars, and the Milwaukee Road's Olympian Hiawatha was out of business long before my recollection.

As far as the coaches, sleepers, etc, I don' remember much, but do recall the dome cars on the EB as well as the observation car with its rounded end. In fact I remember spending a lot of my time in the dome car with my sister. The best of both worlds; my sister and I got to enjoy the ride without our mom hovering over us and Mom got to nap without us bothering her. :lol:

Today, of course, no napkin rings, finger bowls, or china and silverware. I have had good luck with Amtrak personnel; only a few minor problems here and there. And for the trains I've ridden, the color scheme is all the same or close to it.

I wasn't fortunate to be around during the 1940's or 1950's when passenger rail service was better than it was in the late 1960's. Amtrak has its problems, but it's better than the alternative, which is no passenger rail service at all!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 8, 2011)

> And virtually all the EB staff was African-American, and as I recall were helpful, cheeful, always had a smile on their faces, and were eager and happy to serve you.


This is not directed to you personally, but to anybody who pointed out that the African-American crews (pre Civil Rights) were more friendly than they were today.

... You guys realize the reason for this is that if they didn't have said smiles, they'd be subjected to the threats of economic slavery and the standard government-sanctioned second-class citizenship that they (back then) held... right?

I just think that this is something to keep in mind. One way to ensure good service is to threaten them with poverty, racism, and have it sanctioned by the Federal government.


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## palmland (Jan 8, 2011)

Passengers are also different. In first class, you found mostly business men and as a result sleepers were mostly guys in coat and tie and a very few families. In the lounge, that same clientele was into cocktails, not much beer and very little wine. And those drinks were served to you at your seat (along with hors d'oeuvres on some trains). Exception was on resort trains like the Florida Special where it was mostly the well to do and well dressed, and their pets, on their annual jaunt to the sunny south. This was long before these folks started flying to foreign destinations for vacations while now it is mostly the middle class who appear on Amtrak heading to the likes of WDW. Changing times and changing culture - you judge if this makes any difference on Amtrak travel today.

Most roads had superlative service. And on a few roads, like the Santa Fe and Seaboard Coast Line, this lasted up to A day in 1971. Another thing that helped maintain that great service was the Pullman Co. They made sure service was consistently good in the sleepers, not matter which road you were on. Consistency of service is one area that Amtrak struggles with, although certainly better in recent years.


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## henryj (Jan 8, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?


You just named most of them. As you can see from my signature page, I road a just a few of them. The main difference for me is back then I was a young man with no money, so I had to ride the great trains in coach and could rarely afford to eat in the diner. Now I can afford a sleeper. When I shipped out of Fort Polk in the US Army for Brooklyn Army Terminal in New York, however, I got to ride first class which was a real treat(except for being in the Army). The other main differences were that most of the western trains had dome cars, and each train was distinctly different as they were privately operated by the various railroads. If Amtrak covered just a few more routes the difference would not be that much. However, particulary for someone living in Texas or any of the Westerm states except maybe Calif., there are some major gaps.


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## JayPea (Jan 8, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > And virtually all the EB staff was African-American, and as I recall were helpful, cheeful, always had a smile on their faces, and were eager and happy to serve you.
> 
> 
> This is not directed to you personally, but to anybody who pointed out that the African-American crews (pre Civil Rights) were more friendly than they were today.
> ...



I realize this now, of course, but at the time, in my five-year-old world, I didn't think of such things nor even realized they were happening.


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## Larry H. (Jan 8, 2011)

JayPea said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > And virtually all the EB staff was African-American, and as I recall were helpful, cheeful, always had a smile on their faces, and were eager and happy to serve you.
> ...



It is a bit hard to place all this into context of the times. Sure there was segregation most of the time the trains ran. I still recall the black passengers being relegated to their own cars when going south. Times have surly changed. But so has the world as so many of you like to constantly point out. I am sure that the job was demanding and service was required. However service was something in all types of work, not just in the railroad industry so it came as pretty normal part of a job to make the passengers feel welcome and to indeed be of help. No more than a good waiter might have been, or a fine salesperson when stores actually had sales people that helped in a way they don't today. And when did the pullman and other service workers unionize? I don't really know the date, but I do know that one could run into a lot of very unpleasant lounge car porters now and then. In fact my uncle used to travel between St. Louis and Chicago often for business in the 50' and I recall him saying he was never taking the train again due to the way the fellow treated him in the lounge car. Of course there were probably some who faked enjoying there jobs, and I would bet from knowing a few that there also for whom it was a job they were very glad to have at a time when most others did not have the kind of salary or tip potential of those jobs. Yes it was a different time for sure, but others are still doing the job, some as well and many with no where near the helpful attitude that was common then.

OK, before I get blasted over this post I googled when the rail road porters unionized. It was in 1935. So I don't think one can say that the workers we met were being unduly mistreated by the pullman company by that stage. In fact I would say most of them were doing much better than their neighbors of the time. As I said earlier here service was something some people prided them selves in, but those days are mostly gone.


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## LA Resident (Jan 8, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?
> 
> From reading many books on the subject it appears that the main changes are that todays trains are rather stark and utilitarian. If you look at pictures of say the 20th Century Limited, you will see the use of beautiful hardwoods, wooden furniture, nice carpeting, venetian blinds, lovely curtains and the crews were impecibly dressed (as where the passengers). The dining cars offered wider and more gourmet food choices and it was common to see a whilte tablecloth and a vase of fresh flowers on the table. In the dining cars tables and chairs were used instead of the booths that we now see but the sleepers (except for the Pullman section cars) appear very much as they did back in the day. I determined this after touring many of the old sleeping cars at many RR museums and riding on tourist trains. Trains during the 30's, 40's and 50's also had more than one observation car, a lounge and many had two dining cars. It appeared that train travel was far more elegant back then but it had to be as fares were fixed by the government and railroads had to compete for business by offering better amemities. Today while the glamour is gone we at least have something to enjoy the experience
> 
> If there is anyone here who has researched the subject or had the opportunity to expereince travel during that period please share your experience.


Having ridden the Super Chief and City of Los Angeles as a teen, I think that the Pullman roomettes were a step above today's Amtrak economy bedroom. The Pullman roomette had a sink and toilet in the room, tho you had to put the bed back into the wall at night if you needed to use the loo (as the bed came down from the wall and rested on the toilet seat). The room was bigger, too. Today's Economy Bedroom strikes me as the old upper/lower berths set up with a door added, and nothing more. To be sure, it's still preferable to coach.


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## LA Resident (Jan 8, 2011)

LA Resident said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?
> ...


I should add that the meals were a bit fancier and tastier on the old trains. But I might believe that because an uncle was a Union Pacific Salad Chef.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?
> 
> From reading many books on the subject it appears that the main changes are that todays trains are rather stark and utilitarian. If you look at pictures of say the 20th Century Limited, you will see the use of beautiful hardwoods, wooden furniture, nice carpeting, venetian blinds, lovely curtains and the crews were impecibly dressed (as where the passengers). The dining cars offered wider and more gourmet food choices and it was common to see a whilte tablecloth and a vase of fresh flowers on the table. In the dining cars tables and chairs were used instead of the booths that we now see but the sleepers (except for the Pullman section cars) appear very much as they did back in the day. I determined this after touring many of the old sleeping cars at many RR museums and riding on tourist trains. Trains during the 30's, 40's and 50's also had more than one observation car, a lounge and many had two dining cars. It appeared that train travel was far more elegant back then but it had to be as fares were fixed by the government and railroads had to compete for business by offering better amemities. Today while the glamour is gone we at least have something to enjoy the experience
> 
> If there is anyone here who has researched the subject or had the opportunity to expereince travel during that period please share your experience.


If you really want a taste of the best of what railways had to offer during the streamlined and dome car era, take a trip on Via Rail's, Canadian. It's an expensive trip but it's about as close as you can get to the glory days of trains such as the orignal California Zephyr. Service, food, scenery and equipment are superb.

The things I miss most are that you used to be able to go almost anywhere on a sleeping car any day of the week, often with several daily choices and the food in the diner was usually far better than what is offered today.

Gord


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 8, 2011)

I think my one favorite car in pre Amtrak times was the dome diner on Union Pacific's City of Los Angeles and City of Portland. At that time dining "upstairs" hardly existed. There was the high level equipment on the El Capitan but that did not seem as luxurious to me as the UP cars,dome diner and dome lounge.

One of the earlier posters mentioned drinking the water out of the finger bowl.I almost did the same thing but my mother caught me in time. But she had her own history, some years before that she misunderstood the fancy table wear and poured syrup into her coffee.

Pullmans had copies of the Hotel Red Book and either copies of timetables and/or maybe even the Official Railway Guide in the hallways. These could be found in the lounge car also. Plus stationery desk for writing letters, if anybody can remember what "writing a letter" meant. Some of my favorite souvenirs is stationery and envelope with the train name or at least the railroad name on it.

I think the food was definately better on the whole in the past and certainly more variety.But one of the past downfalls,which I have mentioned before, is that before Amtrak not too many lounge cars offered a less expensive food option. Some lounge cars were mostly for beverages, however beautifully decorated.

IF anyone is intrigued by this old stuff I suggest you go to ebay or something and look for old timetables or the old Official Railway Guide. Preferably from the 50's as much started declining after that and not much fun to see.


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## LA Resident (Jan 8, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> I think my one favorite car in pre Amtrak times was the dome diner on Union Pacific's City of Los Angeles and City of Portland. At that time dining "upstairs" hardly existed. There was the high level equipment on the El Capitan but that did not seem as luxurious to me as the UP cars,dome diner and dome lounge.
> 
> One of the earlier posters mentioned drinking the water out of the finger bowl.I almost did the same thing but my mother caught me in time. But she had her own history, some years before that she misunderstood the fancy table wear and poured syrup into her coffee.
> 
> ...


As a kid growing up in San Diego, our family used to go over to Coronado and dine at the Hotel del Coronado every Sunday night. What a hotel! (Still is.) The lower level shopping arcade, all paneled in redwood, had a huge display at one end filled with the train schedules of every railroad in the country. I would always take one of each; it's how I learned geography, I suspect. The Penn Central and Union Pacific schedules in the late 1950s were magnificent. Gosh how I wish I had saved some of those schedules!


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Jan 9, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Pullmans had copies of the Hotel Red Book and either copies of timetables and/or maybe even the Official Railway Guide in the hallways. These could be found in the lounge car also. Plus stationery desk for writing letters, if anybody can remember what "writing a letter" meant. Some of my favorite souvenirs is stationery and envelope with the train name or at least the railroad name on it.


Yep, I have two official guides (April 66 and 67), one is marked for the lounge of the California Zephyr and the other for the Denver Zephyr.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2011)

The main difference to remember between then and now is the relative importance of rail travel as a mode of transportation. Back then (post war until mid '60's), they carried most long distance passengers. So there were lots of trains to choose from. Locals, expresses, milk runs, limiteds, etc. And in many cases two or more railroads competing for passengers on several routes. So the service reflected that. And service on most roads was pretty decent, until passengers started leaving them for jets, auto's and buses on interstates, etc. And when the Post Office ended the carriage of most mail in the late '60's, that was the final straw for most roads. There were a few roads that as mentioned provided excellent service up to A-day, while others tried their hardest to discourage rail travel and kill trains.

One of my favorites at the end was the seasonal SCL Florida Special. It billed itself as "The Champagne Train". It had a recreation lounge card that showed movies, showed tv news where available, had a public radiotelephone, had a fashion show(!), and had bingo and other games conducted by the train hostess and passenger service representative. The dining car had the champagne flowing, and actually had candles burning (don't know how safe that was) on the dining room tables with dimmed lighting like in a fine restaurant. The train ran NYP to MIA in only 24 hours and made few stops. Most passengers were thru passengers. There was an extra fare to ride that train.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 9, 2011)

I was born in 1948 and my Dad worked for the New York Central in the midwest. My first train trip was on the Rocky Mountain Rocket from Joliet, Il to Council Bluffs, IA when I was less than a month old. The food and service on the passenger trains in the 1950s and early 1960s was better than anything Amtrak has offered except during the first 2-3 years when the Railroads were still operating the service. Traveling in Pullman Cars was strictly first class. I don't think even first class air travel could compare. The menus in the Dining Car fantastic and had lots of regional favorites. The larger railroads like the Santa Fe had their own farms for raising cattle and produce served on the trains. I learned to enjoy different foods from trying new things from the Dining Car Menus. I remember eating Boston Scrod for the first time. Many of the dessert items like pies and cakes were made right on the Dining Car. The Lounge Cars were great places for really relaxing. You didn't have to go to a counter like now. Most of the cars had a door bell type button by each seat that you pushed for service which was very prompt. You tipped well for the service, but it was truly superb. Things have changed all over as far as service is concerned in the US. Only very expensive upscale hotels and restaurants have service today that would equal that of The Pullman Company and I am not sure passengers today would be willing to play for that kind of service and certainly the government couldn't be expected to subsidize that kind of service. My wife and I spent a week in a Four Seasons Hotel at a conference this past summer. The service was equal to the Pullman Company with guests every needs being anticipated by the staff, most of which come from foreign countries. 21st Century Travelers also have greater needs and expectations than those of the mid 20th Century when the service on trains was still excellent. I don't foresee the truly luxurious train travel ever making a comeback.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2011)

An unfortunate aspect of LD trains as late as after the second World War (some as recent as 1961 when ICC banned such) was the existence of the so called _Jim Crow_ segregation, which would effectively make facilities like lounge cars unavailable for use of colored people. Here is a good description of the situation based on first hand experience, excerpted from a posting in _a discussion thread_ on this subject at the _Classic Trains Magazine_ web site:



> Going south from Penn Station during WWII, all the streamliners of the Southern, ACL, and SAL, and through coaches on the Havana Special, were segregated, with separate coaches for black passengers. Segregation was not practiced in room sleeping cars, because the use of separate room was considered enough segregation. There may have been segregated section sleepers, but I did not experience them. Generally, if black people traveled Pullman, they bought room space . I was told it was difficult for them to buy section space (upper and lower berths). Most dining cars on these trains had a glass dividing wall with a small seating area used by black passengers (2 or 4 tables seating 8 or 16), but the steward had some flexibility on handling the situation. It was rare to see a black in the lounge cars except for the attendent.


Whenever these discussions of the halcyon days of passenger railroads come up, I am given a pause thinking how much of that may not have been accessible to many of the ancestors of folks that are now our friends. Indeed, the definition of "_Negro_" used by the staff would probably have determined whether I or my parents would have been allowed in the lounge cars. Remember that scene from the film "_Gandhi_" in South Africa where he gets unceremoniously chucked out of a first class car in the middle of nowhere because of his race? I am glad we are passed that.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 9, 2011)

It wasn't just segregation-- it is also a story of your Pullman Porter-- a person who rose out of that mess, but could never truly escape it. He was also a person who knew that, without that job, he'd be in the cold grip of that date and time's reality.

I am sometimes amazed by the humanity displayed by people on these boards. Those of you who have some deeper connection to those days than I, have made me happy.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 9, 2011)

LA Resident said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Having just begun regularly using trains for LD train travel 8 years ago, I always wonder what it was like traveling during rhe golden age of passenger rail. Today we have far fewer routes, many major cities are no longer served, many beautiful train stations lie closed or fallen to the wrecking ball but long distance trains still survive. The porters (now called SCA's) are still doing their job, the dining cars still serve decent meals and the sleeping accomodations are very similar to what was offered way back when. So what are the main differences?
> ...


I have ridden in many older style roomettes. It was very easy to get the bed up and down.The amount of room in today's roomettes for two has the same "feel" to me as an older roomette for one. That is to say,I think today's roomettes are rather cramped for two. But I am a heavyset person, which probably helps to cause that feeling.


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## Larry H. (Jan 9, 2011)

The roomettes of old were more comfortable in that they had a very tiny, but larger than now closet. A toilet in every room and I always loved the little stainless steel fold down sinks and mirror with back lighting, it just made one feel more self contained than the ones now where all you have is a small seat facing each other and having to run down the hall and down the steps in the middle of the night just doesn't seem as convenient or private as having your own toilet even if you had to step slightly into the aisle to bring up the bed. Which by the way was quite easy compared to the way they have to be made up now.

I have been thinking the past few days about the evident disconnect between those of us who granted, older rode the previous generation of equipment and those who have only an amtrak experience to relate too. To often our thoughts about the friendliness and thoughtful decor of the old trains has been taken to mean "rich people riding in opulent surroundings". Frankly that is totally not the case when one relates it to the times. Over the years it is somewhat true that various generations have grown up in different aspects of what seems normal to them, and was normal for the time. I don't think anyone had the idea that riding in a roomette was a glamours thing, it was offered for bit higher charge to people who would prefer some privacy and a way to sleep more comfortably. But it certainly wasn't the height of luxury some would have us think now. If you look at any earlier buildings they were much more ornate in design an interior space than a extremely modern one is today. Todays is elegant but in a different way. And small touches can and do make a big difference is how a space is perceived. Movie theaters as I mentioned on another post were designed for the masses in the thirties, but they were opulent and inviting for a reason. It helped to bring in the customers to that theater. They weren't rich people for the most part, in fact the movies were a great distraction for those in the mist of a depression and yet the surroundings were made to lift people up. When your rode with your working class grand parents they didn't get a room because they thought it was "uppity" they did it for comfort at a slightly higher cost. It was normal, it wasn't class warfare as it seems to be made out by some today. Maybe someone rich enough to have a private car would of course be considered out of the norm but that was not mass of travelers, and in fact just looking at the crowd today I would say that most in the sleepers are not rich by any means. They just wish the same choice that railroads have always offered. The lounges and diners were standard for the times and yes they looked nice, but so did nearly any restaurant that served decent food at the time. Look at the Walnut room at the old Marshal Fields, or the huge and decorative atriums on either end of the main building. Seeing it today one might think it was designed for the upper class, but in fact it was only a product of its time and made to be interesting to the normal everyday shoppers. Radio City Music Hall surly one of the finest and most decorative theaters around, and still highly popular, wouldn't have been considered the play ground of the rich. Compared to a metroplex today with tiny theaters all piled into one structure you might think it was if you had no other reference. So I think those who wonder why some of us think like we do need to take a deep breath, its not class warfare or extravagant luxury we talk about, its the little touches that make a design more appealing one from another, and there is nothing wrong with referencing some of the greatest trains in our history when discussing it.


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## jis (Jan 9, 2011)

Larry makes a good point, though in constant dollar value, as someone has illustrated in this thread earlier, train travel was much more expensive back then than it is now.

It should also be noted that even in the Amtrak era many classic 10-6s were run unmodified for quite a while. The Superliners and Viewliners came much later.

My experience is in riding those per-Super/Viewliner sleepers, the old Slumbercoaches, and also in riding the VIA Manor and Chateau cars. The single rooms in the VIA cars are substantially similar to the classic single rooms, with the bed folding up into the wall using a spring loaded mechanism, exposing the commode under it, and the classic fold down sinks etc.

I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.


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## Big Iron (Jan 9, 2011)

jis said:


> An unfortunate aspect of LD trains as late as after the second World War (some as recent as 1961 when ICC banned such) was the existence of the so called _Jim Crow_ segregation, which would effectively make facilities like lounge cars unavailable for use of colored people. Here is a good description of the situation based on first hand experience, excerpted from a posting in _a discussion thread_ on this subject at the _Classic Trains Magazine_ web site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Back in the early 80's I was taking night classes and would stay after work to study. During that time I got to know our janitor, Roosevelt, very well. Rosie was African American, in his late 70's at the time. I got to talking about a train trip I was taking to Chicago and he said he had never been to Chicago so I asked him to join me. We rode coach from RVR to NYP and then each had a slumbercoach roundtrip on the LSL. Upon arriving at NYP we were informed that the slumbercoach was bad ordered and were offered a bedroom in a substitute 10-6 sleeper. Upon boarding the bedroom it was obvious this car had been snatched from the repair lot as its paint was peeling, carpets worn and seats stained. I was thinking what a crappy car this was until Rosie, with eyes as big as saucers, said "In my day a black man couldn't travel like this." He was absolutely thrilled and had the time of his life. I learned a great deal spending the trip with a man 50 years my senior whose life was made harder for no other reason than his skin color. He was a kind, gentle, caring man whom I miss very much.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 9, 2011)

jis said:


> I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.


My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?


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## had8ley (Jan 9, 2011)

I think the one aspect that I feel has drastically changed RR'ing is that there is no competition for Amtrak.And they're having a tough time retaining OBS. Granted,NJT,MARC and METRA have dual stops but they're not a real threat to the Amtrak system. What is interesting is the pre-Amtrak RR's were competitive. Any RR president in the pre-Amtrak days would laugh at you if you asked him if his all Pullman pax trains made money.The lowly locals probably turned more revenue in postal contracts and RPO's. The stainless steel varnish and linen table cloths were to woo pax off of other RR's~ a real capitalistic environment. Now that we're down to one system we have to eat what Amtrak puts on the table~ even if it is crow.Don't ask a chef to bake a birthday cake for you today~ I don't even know if they have the means to do so. My grand-father and I celebrated his 75th birthday with a cake baked on board the 20th Century Limited in 1959. Don't think we'll ever see that again!


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## dlagrua (Jan 9, 2011)

I played the video here on the Santa Fe Super Chief train of the 1950's and it must have been awesome back then. Multiple observation cars, 100% Sleepers, lounges, dining cars, a barber shop, fancy decor and even an upscale diner restaurant for the well to do. It was elegant. The only thing that I did not notice were showers. I believe that the only shower was located in the Barber Shop but what did the ladies do?

Also the travel time from Chicago to Los Angeles Union Station was only 37 hours. It was only 24 hours to Albuqurque NM. That shows you how far train travel has regresssed.


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## had8ley (Jan 9, 2011)

Pastor Dave said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I wish there was some way to get Slumbercoaches back. The closest thing to that kind of accommodation, at least in so far as sleeping facilities is concerned, that one can find today, alas, is only on international long distance planes in the lie flat seats in Business and First Class accommodations.
> ...


The Slumbercoaches were built in the middle fifties when the RR's started to realize that everyone wanted a car in their garage and weren't interested in train travel as their only means of transportation.Pullman prices were really stiff as you had to pay a Pullman rail fare (higher than regular coach),then tack on your room charge then add your meals and drinks (no freebies back then except for coffe hour on a few crack trains). You could buy a slumbercoach room with a regular coach ticket; probably an economy move to lure the pax out of his car.It was the beginning of the end for Pullman as most of the RR's owned their own slumbercoaches versus Pullman owning and operating the regular sleepers at super high rail and room fares.


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## Anderson (Jan 9, 2011)

For some reason I thought Pullman got broken up in an antitrust suit, and that's when the RRs were able to get their own cars. Until then, Pullman was sort of like AT&T: They still owned the car; you (the RR) just rented it.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 9, 2011)

Pastor Dave said:


> My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?


On the contrary, Silvers Siesta, Rest, Slumber, and Repose were built in 1956 (tieing themselves with the second newest sleepers Amtrak owned) while Lochs Sloy, Lomond, Leven, Ness, Tarbert, Katrine, Lochy, Tay, Rannoch, Akaig and Awe were the newest sleepers Amtrak owned built in 1959. The last 10-6s retired by Amtrak were of the Pacific/Pine build and were built in 1950, converted into dorms and retired around 2007. The only Heritage 10-6 cars left in Amtrak service are some Special Service cars of the Pacific build (Command, Patrol, and Forrest) built in 1950.



dlagrua said:


> I played the video here on the Santa Fe Super Chief train of the 1950's and it must have been awesome back then. Multiple observation cars, 100% Sleepers, lounges, dining cars, a barber shop, fancy decor and even an upscale diner restaurant for the well to do. It was elegant. The only thing that I did not notice were showers. I believe that the only shower was located in the Barber Shop but what did the ladies do?
> 
> Also the travel time from Chicago to Los Angeles Union Station was only 37 hours. It was only 24 hours to Albuqurque NM. That shows you how far train travel has regresssed.


They didn't shower. Showering was a luxury back then, and only the very wealthiest passengers rented the Master Rooms that had showers.

Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 9, 2011)

jis said:


> Larry makes a good point, though in constant dollar value, as someone has illustrated in this thread earlier, train travel was much more expensive back then than it is now.
> 
> It should also be noted that even in the Amtrak era many classic 10-6s were run unmodified for quite a while. The Superliners and Viewliners came much later.
> 
> ...


When built about 1954 sleeper terminology on both CN and CP was the same as in the states..A roomette was a roomette. VIA recently changed the terms to something they felt would be more user friendly.


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## dlagrua (Jan 9, 2011)

> Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.


Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.

If you viewed the Santa Fe Super Chief Video (that is on this post)you will see how my comments relate. Every rail travler should see this as we will probably never experience luxury rail travel like this in our lifetime. That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.


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## nferr (Jan 9, 2011)

Mordac said:


> It appears that just about everybody in those YouTube videos had a cigarette; I can imagine how smoky those lounge cars must have been. At least in that regard, Amtrak is a huge improvement.


Not too many years back the Amtrak lounges were just as smoky.It was awful.


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## LA Resident (Jan 9, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> > Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.
> 
> 
> Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.
> ...


It was called the Turquoise Room and definitely very fancy, had to be reserved in advance, mostly for private parties.


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## dlagrua (Jan 9, 2011)

I can only find info that the Turquoise room seated 12 and was located in the rear of the observation lounge next to the dining car. It was a private dining car used most often by Hollywood celebrities and their friends. When it was not used for a private party other passengers were free to use it. Apparently the Turquoise room was heavily reserved by and for Hollywood Celebrities so it wasn't often that it was open to the general passenger population. .

Here is some additional info on the old Super Chief.

Industrial designer Sterling McDonald created the train’s classic interior Indian designs and themes. Whenever possible McDonald used authentic Native American (many of which depicted the Navajo) colors (such as turquoise and copper), patterns, and even authentic murals and paintings in the train. He used a combination of rare and exotic woods like ebony, teak, satinwood, bubinga, maccassar, and ribbon primavera for trim through the train giving the Super Chief an added touch of one-of-a-kind elegance.

Everything inside the train exuded the Native American culture and way of life. However, the Super Chief’s livery also conveyed this, if not to an even greater degree. The train’s now-classic “Warbonnet” paint scheme was actually designed by General Motors’ artist Leland Knickerbocker.

It must have been a wonderful expereince riding the Super Chief back then but as far as I can determine the slower trip times of today are probably a result of the additional stops and as Green Maned Lion mentioned train speed. The Santa Fe Super Chief did reach 100 MPH speeds back in the 40's and 50's. Remarkable speed for that era and on par with the Acela. Today the Super Chief is a Superliner train, not bad but probably nothing like the Santa Fe in the days of old.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 9, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> I can only find info that the Turquoise room seated 12 and was located in the rear of the observation lounge next to the dining car. It was a private dining car used most often by Hollywood celebrities and their friends. When it was not used for a private party other passengers were free to use it. Apparently the Turquoise room was heavily reserved by and for Hollywood Celebrities so it wasn't often that it was open to the general passenger population. .
> 
> Here is some additional info on the old Super Chief.
> 
> ...


Slight tweak, the T room was in the midtrain dome lounge. "Observation car" meant the rounded rear end car at the back. Rumour has it that Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton once "rented" the Troom and stayed smashed the whole trip, and on their booze, not the railroads. A similar story is told about a country western singer (maybe Hank Williams???) who tore up the lounge car on Louisville and Nashville's Pan American. A less classy train but same classless behavior.


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## Anderson (Jan 9, 2011)

As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).


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## jis (Jan 9, 2011)

Anderson said:


> As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).


Didn't the old Limiteds run at a higher speed and didn't heads roll if there was too much interference in its path from freight or anything else? It is a different age with different priorities on the road requiring different amounts of padding.


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## Anderson (Jan 9, 2011)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > As far as "going backward": The old Limiteds ran New York-Chicago in 16 hours. The LSL runs 19 hours westbound and 20 hours eastbound over what I believe to be a substantially similar route. Allowing an hour for new stops, that's still 2-3 hours more...or an increase in time of 1/8 on the low end, and 1/4 on the high end (4 hours added to the Eastbound trip).
> ...


You've partly hit on my point. What I get: Freight interference happens. I accept this. What I also get: Stops slow the train down. What I don't get: Track speed limits on a lot of those tracks being far lower now than in the 1960s (particularly on the NYC-Buffalo stretch).


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## George Harris (Jan 9, 2011)

Track speeds:

I collect old employee timetables, and also have some information of more recent vintage. (3 to 4 years ago, quite a few employee timetables were available on a public web site if you knew where to look.)

One thing that is very important in understanding railroad speed limits: Just because a line has a speed limit of 79 mph, 90 mph, or whatever, does not mean that the train pulls out of the station, gets up to full speed, and stays there until it slows to a stop. Most lines will have numerous curves restricted to lower speeds than the line speed. There will be junction areas, crossovers, end of sidings, etc., with much lower speeds, commonly 25 mph or less.

There was also the factor that premier passenger trains were always operated by engineers that were at the very top of the seniority roster. These men, and they were always men at that time, knew their territory like the back of their hand so they knew how fast they could safely go an all points on their territory, regardless of the numbers in the timetable or posted along the track. Thus, if behind schedule, as a matter of pride, both theirs and the company's they would fudge the speeds as far as they dared to get the train back on time.

The first 100 mph *allowable* speeds go back to the 1930's with steam. The Milwaukee Road between Chicago and Minneapolis had this limit over a considerable part of the distance, and the line was mostly double track as well. This is the route used by the EB today. The line is mostly single track with a speed limit of 70 mph.

The Santa Fe was also early into the 100 mph speed limit game. Don't when it began, but list of allowed speeds for steam engiens by engine number could be found in employee timetables. There was both a 100 mph list and a 90 mph list. (Slower speeds also.) Much of the route used by the Southwest Chief permitted 100 mph though at least early 1960's.

The Union Pacific line across Nebraska and Wyoming allowed 90 mph all the way up to and including early Amtrak.

There were numerous other lines with 90 mph or 100 mph speed limits, as well. Many of these higher speed limits went down with the advent of the ICC (predecessor to the FRA) rule that required very specific minimum additions to the signals to run "80 mph or faster" and the most basic form of signals to be in place to run "60 mph or faster" These regulations are the father of the common 79 mph speed limit, and on some lines, such as the trains in Vermont and the Flomaton FL to Tallahassee FL secton of the Sunset-East route, their 59 mph speed limit.

Some specifics: In the northeast: Most of the Northeast Corridor had a speed limit of 80 mph during Pennsylvania Railroad days. This is now of course 110 mph and higher.

The New York Central had a speed limit of 85 mph for most of the route used by the Lakeshore Limited. The Twentieth Century maintained its schedule by having almost no stops, and of course being given absolute priority. The speed limit is now 79 mph. In addition, up until the 1950's the line had four main tracks throughout, two for passenger trains and two for freight trains. Beginning sometime during the 50's the outside track were taken up piece by piece.

I think the Pennsy limited their speeds to 80 mph. The Broadway Limited matched the 20th Century in time by having a route some 50 miles shorter, and again, being givven absolute priority. They also had four main track out of the east to at least as far as Pittsburg.

The Atlantic Coast Line allowed 100 mph on lengthy segments of their mostly double track main line between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. This was still at 90 mph into the early to mid 1960's. It is now 79 mph and most of the second main is gone.

When I see the current day City of New Orleans, I do not even want to think about it. Into the early 1960's both it and the overnight Panama Limited could be depended upon to make it between Chicago and New Orleans in 16 1/2 hours. There was a lengthy section in Illinois that permitted 100 mph, and most of the rest of the route was nominally 79 mph, which was usually observed only if the train was on time. Now it is all 79 mph or less, and the direct passenger route between Memphis and Jackson MS is no longer in use, and maybe not all still in place.

Some routes, such as the route used by the Texas Eagle between St. Louis and Poplar Bluff MO is lmited to 60 mph, but has never been faster.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.


The way I understood it, the Turqoise Room was up for reservation by private parties for dinners, parties, or other functions. When not used for those purposes, it could be used either as additional lounge space, or could serve as 'overflow' seating for the adjacent dining car, which on the Santa Fe usually only seated 36 in spacious 4 and 2 tables. So there was not much tax on the kitchen to serve these extra tables.

I don't see any indication of any extra charge to dine in that room, so it was no more 'upscale' than the regular dining car.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> > Also, its currently 26 hours to ABQ right now. I don't see that a great "distance" of regression. Especially since the Chief was operated at a speed that is now considered to be unsafe.
> 
> 
> Time to LAX is now 43 hours and was 37 hours so we are definitley going backwards. As for speeds I can't find info on too many Super Chief wrecks due to speed in that era. I beleive that it went along at 70 mph which should be close to what it travels at today.


Another thing to take into account is the three places that today's Chief runs that are different form the Super. First, Los Angeles to San Bernardino via Fullerton instead of Pasadena, next Newton to Kansas City via Topeka instead of Ottawa, and finally, Galesburg to Chicago via Naperville instead of Joliet. (That last reroute actually should speed up the trip).


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## jis (Jan 9, 2011)

George Harris said:


> The New York Central had a speed limit of 85 mph for most of the route used by the Lakeshore Limited. The Twentieth Century maintained its schedule by having almost no stops, and of course being given absolute priority. The speed limit is now 79 mph. In addition, up until the 1950's the line had four main tracks throughout, two for passenger trains and two for freight trains. Beginning sometime during the 50's the outside track were taken up piece by piece.


Another thing to consider is that almost uniformly super-elevation on curves have been reduced, thus reducing the speed limits on the curves, which are things that cost the most (way more than reduction of top speed by 20 mph from say a top speed of 90 or 100 mph) in terms of added running time over a segment.


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## railiner (Jan 9, 2011)

And it seems that servicing the train enroute takes longer now than before, perhaps due to smaller forces employed for that purpose?


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 10, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Track speeds:
> 
> I collect old employee timetables, and also have some information of more recent vintage. (3 to 4 years ago, quite a few employee timetables were available on a public web site if you knew where to look.)
> 
> ...



George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.

But I have some stories to tell.

Once I witnessed the northbound Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler) arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta. Once my sister and I were on the Dixieland when it made up 20 minutes from Nashville into Chattanooga. And my sister claims she was on the Georgian once when it made up 20 minutes from Atlanta into Chattanooga. Further my grandfather recalled overhearing some crew saying their train, the Dixie Flyer, had just been running 90 mph. This would have been some place east of Tullahoma.

Best of all, though,is an old article in Trains Magazine. Tells of an old engineer just as you describe. Seems one morning the Dixie Flagler had to make an unscheduled stop in Cowan, TN., for mechanical problems. Problem got fixed, left Cowan 24 minutes late per employee timetable and arrived Nashville on time to the minute. To do this it made some gallops of 100 mph. And this under steam.

Of course that is the more direct part of the route.

BTW let me clarify for folks not familiar with such long ago operations,there was very little padding in the specific schedules I am referencing. There was some, at some places and in some trains but not like it sometimes is today.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 10, 2011)

railiner said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > That upscale dining room on the Super Chief is really impressive. Its must have cost a small fortune to dine in that car.
> ...


Having ridden on the Super Chief, I can say that the Turquoise Room served the same menu as the dining car, including the Champagne Dinner. They were served out of the same kitchen (in the dining car), with the Turquoise Room end of the of the Pleasure Dome lounge car coupled to the diner.

The prices were what you'd see in a nice restaurant of the time, which it very much was. It was not out of line.


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## George Harris (Jan 10, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.
> 
> But I have some stories to tell.
> 
> ...


Bill: In general padding such as it was, was usually in the range of 10 to 15 minutes into major cities or division points.

The NC&StL: In many ways my favorite road and the first passenger train I ever road. Just before my 5th birthday, we took the City of Memphis from Memphis to Jackson, Tenn. - behind steam. Sadly, not only is the train long gone, so is the track.

From information I have, the speed limits on the old NC were 60 mph Memphis to Nashville, 70 mph Nashville to Chattanooga, and 60 mph Chattanooga to Atlanta. The last 36 miles into Atlanta were 45 mph or less due to the multitudinous curves.

The NC did quite a bit to get rid of the less than 60 mph curves between Memphis and Bruceton in the immediate post WW2 era. Unfortunately, the passenger traffic on this line all but dissapeared by the mid 1950's with the City of Memphis running its last years with only one coach. Note that it was not for lack of trying on the part of the NC&StL. They did all thier finances allowed.

For the Dixieland, and the Georgian as well: There were several opportunites to pick up time on the schedule by ignoring the speed limits without compromising safety nor too much in the way of comfort. Nashville to Tullahoma was fairly straight. South of Chattanooga, there are also some fairly straight areas between Cartersville GA and about Dalotn GA. It was well known that trains could put away quite a bit of the 32 mile distance between Myrfreesboro and Nashville at 90 to 100 mph despite the 70 mph maximum. It should also be noted that it was generally appreciated by most of the passengers at the time that the effort was made to get back on schedule and a little more excitement in the ride was an accepted part of that happening.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 10, 2011)

Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?


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## MrFSS (Jan 10, 2011)

Pastor Dave said:


> Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?


YES! - both as a child riding with my parents and when I was in the military and rode alone as an adult. One of the greatest, most memorable trips was on the *City of Denver* from Denver to Chicago. Diner in the Dome Dinner, great coach seats and a train staff that really took care of you.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 10, 2011)

MrFSS said:


> Pastor Dave said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?
> ...


Can you share some more of those memories? I grew up in an Amtrak world and had to take what I could get. Don't mean to wax nostalgia, but some of the stories of the past are really great.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2011)

The mattresses! the mattresses were softer and thicker back in the day than they are now and somehow felt more luxurious. I wish today's mattresses were softer but nevertheless I'm always glad to be on one of them every chance I can get!


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## had8ley (Jan 10, 2011)

Pastor Dave said:


> Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?


What a loaded question...I remember a Parlor Room Buffet Lounge Parlor car porter on the Merchants Limited (first section at Thanksgiving) squeezing me a fresh orangeade for 15 cents. My grandfather gave me a quarter and told me to tell the porter to keep the change. Can you imagine the looks a dime tip would gather today ? Sure made me feel special.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 10, 2011)

I looked at the Lsl schedule and saw 2 hours plus dwell time in tol, clev, buffalo and Albany-rensselear. Not counting dwell time I believe Lsl takes about 17 hrs plus to travel from chi to nyc.


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## pennyk (Jan 10, 2011)

My first train trip was in the mid 1960's. It was my 8th grade school trip from Miami to Washington DC over spring break. I believe it was the Atlantic Coast Line and have no idea what the name of the train was, however, I know that Bill will know. As an 8th grader without a parent, I had a wonderful time. The one negative I remembered was the food. I think they fed us powdered eggs for breakfast (or maybe it just seemed like it). I remembered the food smell permeating the train and it was not pleasant. I also remember it being very cold in WAS and we Miami girls were not used to that weather.

In college, I traveled Amtrak (early 70's) from Waldo to Fayetteville (changing trains in JAX). I was a smoker at the time  and was very pleased that the "women's lounge" had a couch and plenty of space for us smokers to hand out. We were not treated like second class citizens. Now that I am a non smoker, I am very happy that smoking is not allowed on trains.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 10, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > George, you know how I start babbling and foaming whenever I think of the good old Nashville,Chattanooga and St Louis (later taken over by Louisville and Nashville). I know the terraine was rugged in places and the official mph not very high.
> ...


Enjoyed your response George. Your last paragraph merges well with my memories.

That time I saw the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) arrive 20 minutes early Chattanooga from Atlanta was deliberate, I am sure. Why? Well, mother and I were traveling from Chattanooga to Evansville. The train was due to stay in Chattanooga from 7.40 am to 7.50.Instead it arrived at 7.20 am.

Why? Because the southbound Georgian was running uncharacteristically late. (for that time).The Georgian,due at 5.25, instead arrived about 7.25 to 7.35 or so. See? By rushing the Dixieland to get in early, it could and did, park off to the side out of the way on track 5. Allowing the tardy Georgian to rush on in on track 6, get its business done and off to Atlanta.

Thus, each train was kept out of the way of the other. Had the Dixieland not run like a bat out of hell and arrived on time instead of early it would have just screwed both trains up.They would be trying to arrive at the same time. Had the southbound Georgian been on time at 5.30 the Dixieland would probably arrived Chattanooga a more relaxed 7.35 or so.

Now that is mighty find railroading in my book!!! Even if the pancakes were thrown to the ceiling in each train's diner.


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## railiner (Jan 11, 2011)

Having grown up in New York City, I used to ride subways all the time. My family all lived fairly close back then, so we had no need for extensive travel for visiting.

Vacations were all motor trips within a hundred mile or so radius usually. So I had little exposure to 'real' railway travel.

I did get a brief glimpse when meeting family visiting from Massachusetts at Grand Central Terminal. And when taking our grandfather to Penn Station, on his winter vacation in Florida. What wonderful temples of transportation those were.

My first solo long distance travel was by bus when I was 8 and then 12 years old (those were different times). Main reason was that it was a one-seat ride between New York and Worcester, Ma. Train would have required a change in either Springfield or New London.

Fast forward to 1966. After having flown in to Chanute AFB at Rantoul, Il, and spent a couple of weeks at Tech School, it was time for first weekend pass. Since I was familiar with bus travel, I selected Greyhound as my ride to Chicago. I boarded the old Scenicruiser, and it was a local, taking 4 hours and 20 minutes to reach the underground Loop terminal. The next time I went with some buddies, who insisted we ride the train. The Illinois Central Louisiane, an all day local picked us up on time at 4:12 PM. I settled into my seat. I was reading some literature, and turned to my companion asking when we were leaving. He looked at me quizzically and pointed toward the window. I looked out and couldn't believe what I was seeing--we were rolling along at about 30mph and accelerating. The start was so smooth and imperceptible as compared to the subway trains I was used to that I didn't even feel it. We were soon rolling along the Mainline of Mid-America at about 90mph. Just as smooth as the starts, were the station stops at Paxton, Kankakee, and Homewood. We rolled into the lakefront Central Station in a bit over two hours. Train was used from then on.

Around four years later, a friend introduced me to railfanning and luxury rail travel. We had flown to Chicago on a TWA 707, and boarded the combined Burlington Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Great Northern Empire Builder/Northern Pacific North Coast Limited. What an impressive train with leg-rest chair cars, Pullman sleepers, slumbercoaches, dining cars, coffee shops, lounge cars, and domes, domes, domes galore. Vista Domes, Great Domes, Lounge in the Sky.....everything! We took that train to Minneapolis, took a Jefferson PD4903 bus down to Osceola, and caught the California Zephyr back to Chicago. We then flew home on a UAL DC-8-61.

That trip really got me hooked.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 11, 2011)

railiner said:


> Having grown up in New York City, I used to ride subways all the time. My family all lived fairly close back then, so we had no need for extensive travel for visiting.
> 
> Vacations were all motor trips within a hundred mile or so radius usually. So I had little exposure to 'real' railway travel.
> 
> ...


Fascinating consist you describe. You mention the sceniccruiser. A lot of people probably do not know about that, it was a bus with about the last two thirds of it were on a higher level. I always thought it was the bus attempting to compete with railroad dome cars.


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## dlagrua (Jan 11, 2011)

I guess that I was born 30 years too late as I would have loved to experience the great hotels on the rails that ran back then. Today at least we have something to enjoy. It dosn't offer quite the same amenities nor is it as luxurious but at least the sleepers have retained a similar look and we now have showers aboard. The Golden Days of Railroading are gone but the remnents of what was once the worlds greatest passenger railroad system still give you a feel of what it was like. It is likely that passenger rail will continue to grow (gas is already over $3 per gallon)and who knows what the future will hold. If passenger rail can continue to grow at only 5% per year then there is a bright future for it.

Meanwhile we take it, we enjoy it and we support it.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Fascinating consist you describe. You mention the sceniccruiser. A lot of people probably do not know about that, it was a bus with about the last two thirds of it were on a higher level. I always thought it was the bus attempting to compete with railroad dome cars.


Initially when introduced they were branded _Scenicruisers_. They had significant structural problems, which were fixed, and the fixed upgraded ones were rebranded as "_Super Scenicruiser_".






I remember riding one of these from Boston to Niagara Falls and back in 1965.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2011)

I wish we could get

 on trains someday. It is pretty much like a small semi private space which can be configured from upright sitting to flat bed, and every position in between, without getting off the seat. Very cool and comfortable for a 15 hour flight, as I did from Delhi to Newark nonstop a week back.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 11, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> I guess that I was born 30 years too late as I would have loved to experience the great hotels on the rails that ran back then. Today at least we have something to enjoy. It dosn't offer quite the same amenities nor is it as luxurious but at least the sleepers have retained a similar look and we now have showers aboard. The Golden Days of Railroading are gone but the remnents of what was once the worlds greatest passenger railroad system still give you a feel of what it was like. It is likely that passenger rail will continue to grow (gas is already over $3 per gallon)and who knows what the future will hold. If passenger rail can continue to grow at only 5% per year then there is a bright future for it.
> 
> Meanwhile we take it, we enjoy it and we support it.


But as for being "30 years too late", keep in mind we still have The Canadian.


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## palmland (Jan 11, 2011)

I do remember those Scenic Cruiser buses. In the 60's I used to take them from Richmond, Va where I was in college over to Charlottesville or Lynchburg for rides on the Pelican or Birmingham special. Those trains were heavyweight classics, although the Pullman was usually a streamlined Southern 10=6. Great meals (and cold beer) in the diner/lounge. On another trip I rode Trailways from a summer job in SC to Chattanooga to catch the Georgian to Nashville when my brother was in Vandy. The Georgian in mid 60's was still a great train with a long string of coaches and of course with several Pullmans from Atlanta to Chicago and St. Louis.


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## had8ley (Jan 11, 2011)

jis said:


> I wish we could get


Yeah you're right Jis. Domestic first class in this country is getting to be very similar to coach on Amtrak~ no perks; just sit and we'll let you know when we get there !


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## dlagrua (Jan 11, 2011)

had8ley said:


> I wish we could get



Yes but they don't offer roomettes or bedrooms on airplanes. While the airlines get more cramped the trains still offer the same roominess as they always did.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 11, 2011)

palmland said:


> I do remember those Scenic Cruiser buses. In the 60's I used to take them from Richmond, Va where I was in college over to Charlottesville or Lynchburg for rides on the Pelican or Birmingham special. Those trains were heavyweight classics, although the Pullman was usually a streamlined Southern 10=6. Great meals (and cold beer) in the diner/lounge. On another trip I rode Trailways from a summer job in SC to Chattanooga to catch the Georgian to Nashville when my brother was in Vandy. The Georgian in mid 60's was still a great train with a long string of coaches and of course with several Pullmans from Atlanta to Chicago and St. Louis.


My kind of memories, Palmland. And while you were boarding the Georgian, I may have been walking down the platform looking at it!!

About those streamlined Southern 10-6's, yes by that time that is what they were. But before then they were Pennsy red Norfolk and Western streamlined sleepers, of the same kind you might have seen on the Pocahontas and the Cavalier.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Yes but they don't offer roomettes or bedrooms on airplanes. While the airlines get more cramped the trains still offer the same roominess as they always did.


It all depends on how much money you are willing to spend. See what the

 looks like. It is a little beyond my financial reach though, unlike the Continental Business-First horizontal lie-flat seats.
Airlines are getting cramped in steerage, but things are actually improving overall up front. And things are getting cramped in the back because of pressures to provide low cost accommodation. So the customers are getting exactly what they really want, as evidenced by their buying behavior, which is a cheap ticket, whatever it takes. But for those that are willing to pay for service and luxury, there is considerable amount of choice available.

BTW, most of the money making high speed trains in Europe or Japan aren't exactly as spacious as the hugely money losing train operations in the US either. The seat pitch, size and comfort in a Eurostar Standard Class or on a Shinkansen Regular Class are not particularly better than on BA World Traveler Class or JAL Economy.


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## Larry H. (Jan 11, 2011)

Pastor Dave said:


> Let me ask a question of some of my seniors (I'm 53). Did you feel more "pampered" on some of the trains of the 50's and 60's than you do now?



Well sure, the surroundings were nicer for what ever reason and when you rode a road that took pride in its service you were treated like they really enjoyed your being there. It was typical of the parlor car attendant on the GM&O to bring you drinks or snacks for the diner without having to prod them into it. On detraining he always took a wide clothing brush and whisk any lint or foreign things off your cloths or coat. The diner was like a nice restaurant with the Mater D over looking every thing to see it was just so, they didn't make you feel like your taking up space because they had to move more prepaid passengers though like they do now. The food was real, not pre-made and of higher quality than now. In the sleepers the luggage was loaded and unloaded without your asking it to be done, it was part of the service. Shoes were shined over night for passengers. The lounges were plush and comfortable with more of a living room setting than a hospital waiting room with plastic chairs. The interiors were attractive and thoughtful though out the better trains. And the most important part was that passenger trains were the pride of the company and running on time was very important. I can recall many times the Panama Limited coming in to a station and stopping exactly on the minute it was due. The railroad tried very hard to make that so. If your traveled overnight and the train left at an odd time like near midnight you could board your sleeper and have a good nights rest before it left instead of boarding so late. The other thing I miss the most is that when you went to a station in any major city you could then take a train in any direction with easy connections to towns major an minor. I still think without a more expansive system rail will stay a lesser form of travel for many simply because they cant' get where they are wanting to go easily.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 11, 2011)

jis said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but they don't offer roomettes or bedrooms on airplanes. While the airlines get more cramped the trains still offer the same roominess as they always did.
> ...


Yes, a few _foreign_ airlines like SQ have what could be termed an updated version of a roomette. Some also have stand-up bars and EK even has airborne showers on some aircraft. However, the routes that have roomette-like accommodations are few and far between and the cost is strictly for the private varnish crowd. Even SQ's _seven thousand dollar_ First Class RTW fare specifically excludes the use of any suites anywhere in the network. I haven't yet checked but I'm guessing the _twelve thousand dollar_ *A First Class RTW fare might also suffer from the same restrictions.


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## Big Iron (Jan 11, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> I guess that I was born 30 years too late as I would have loved to experience the great hotels on the rails that ran back then. Today at least we have something to enjoy. It dosn't offer quite the same amenities nor is it as luxurious but at least the sleepers have retained a similar look and we now have showers aboard. The Golden Days of Railroading are gone but the remnents of what was once the worlds greatest passenger railroad system still give you a feel of what it was like. It is likely that passenger rail will continue to grow (gas is already over $3 per gallon)and who knows what the future will hold. If passenger rail can continue to grow at only 5% per year then there is a bright future for it.
> 
> Meanwhile we take it, we enjoy it and we support it.


I was 11 when Amtrak took over and my pre-Amtrak rides consisted of the RF&P, B & O and CB&Q. Coach class on Amtrak affords some consistency and subtle luxury, back in the day the coach cars ran the gamut from foldover seats, linoleum floors, open luggage racks to heywood-wakefield coach seats, venetian blinds and ornate murals at the ends of the cars. I recall getting off a Budd sleeper in DC after riding the CL going to an old Pullman six axle baggage/coach on the RF&P. A bit of a culture shock.

The refurbed Superliner sleepers, IMHO, are just a nice as the sleepers pre-Amtrak, at least on the roads I travelled.

Diners and lounges back in the day were more luxurious with the colorful china, more ornate silverware and silver tureens for coffee, cream, milk, etc.

On board service was much better pre-Amtrak. More of them and always polite to a fault.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 11, 2011)

It is a misconception that the Turquoise Room died with Amtrak. It didn't- rather, it died with the Super Chief when Amtrak vanquished the last of its Pullman dome cars in 1974. That had nothing to do, by the way, with Amtrak's desire to cut service.

Rather, Amtrak strategically eliminated Pullman-Standard as it could. Almost none of them made the Heritage program. And with good reason- they were poorly built. The last Pullman cars were Southern all bedroom cars, retired when the Auto Train went Superliner in the early 90s.

Of the approximately 10,000 cars Amtrak theoretically acquired in 1971, only 5000 of them even turned a single wheel in Amtrak service. I have evidence that some 800 cars supposedly transferred to Amtrak (mostly PC) were scrapped in the years leading up to Amtrak. Of the 5000 cars that Amtrak operated, only 2000 of them saw 1972. And only 1600 of those saw 1973. Almost all of the cars that made it to 1973 were built by Edward G. Budd Company of Philadelphia, PA.

Why? 90-95 percent of PS cars were in rotten shape by the early 70s. They were rusty, structurally unsound, and poorly maintained. Remember, UP, Santa Fe, Burlington, and GN, and NP primarily had stainless cars- meaning Budd. The eastern roads were where Pullman still held sway, because most of their equipment was much older- by the early 50s, the superiority of Budd cars was unquestioned.

Amtrak didn't pick the prettiest cars to handle its trains. That would have been idiotic. And Amtrak, we should all thank god, was not run by idiots. They picked, rather, the cars that could survive best limited maintenance, excessive over running, and many many years of life. This pragmatic approach to its operations are why we still have Amtrak today.

I often wonder if W. Graham Claytor understood that we'd still be running some of those Heritage cars some 18 years after he died. Cars he himself had said were aged museum pieces in desperate need of replacement. Maybe Amtrak could have futzed around with things the way VIA did, but if so I doubt we'd have a national intercity rail operator at this time.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 11, 2011)

jis said:


> I wish we could get



I think these lie flat seats could have potential for Amtrak. How expensive are these seats? I can see that the entertainment systems might not work so well in a railroad car. But if the seats had outlets, people could plug in their laptops, phones, etc anyway.

For some reason, the seats on long distance Amtrak coaches are not as comfortable as in the past. They are especially weak in providing support for the lower back. If Amtrak could address this issue, that would help too. And if they implemented the lie flat seats in an upgraded BC format on overnight trains, that would work too.


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## railiner (Jan 12, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> I wish we could get


How expensive? Perhaps as much or more than a dentist chair? Maybe $50k or more?

We have discussed this before...I think most of us old-timers fondly remember those wonderful Heywood-Wakefield "Sleepy Hollow" line of reclining coach and parlor car chairs. They were designed to be ergonomically correct after taking thousands of measurements of different people.

They were supremely comfortable and were built to last.


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## railiner (Jan 12, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Having grown up in New York City, I used to ride subways all the time. My family all lived fairly close back then, so we had no need for extensive travel for visiting.
> ...





jis said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Fascinating consist you describe. You mention the sceniccruiser. A lot of people probably do not know about that, it was a bus with about the last two thirds of it were on a higher level. I always thought it was the bus attempting to compete with railroad dome cars.
> ...


The Scenicruiser was designed by Greyhound engineers and styled by famous industrial designer Raymond Loewey, long associated with the PRR. It was built by General Motors Truck and Coach Division at Pontiac, Mi. in 1954,55, and 56. One Thousand and One were built. Originally powered by two Detroit Diesel 4-71 engines, until 1962 when they were all rebuilt with the new Detroit Diesel 8v-71. They were designed to compete with the new vista-dome streamliners of the era, so it is no surprise that they bear a strong resemblance to them. Indeed, if you got the first row window seats on the upper level, the view was very similar to that enjoyed in a dome car.


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## rrdude (Jan 12, 2011)

jis said:


> I wish we could get


JIS, if u r in the window seat, n the person inthe aisle seat is reclined all the way, do u basically hvto crawl over them? Or is there anotherway to get out?


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## jis (Jan 12, 2011)

rrdude said:


> I wish we could get


The seat in the flat position is pretty low, and the back of the seat structure for the row in front of you is rigid, i.e that seat does not tilt into your row. Given the 55" or more seat pitch there is huge room to just skip across the adjacent flat bed without a problem. But yes you do have skip across. Also there is never more than one such seat to skip across since the layout in 777 is 2-2-2 in 757 is 2-2 and in 767 is 1-2-1.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 12, 2011)

pennyk said:


> My first train trip was in the mid 1960's. It was my 8th grade school trip from Miami to Washington DC over spring break. I believe it was the Atlantic Coast Line and have no idea what the name of the train was, however, I know that Bill will know. As an 8th grader without a parent, I had a wonderful time. The one negative I remembered was the food. I think they fed us powdered eggs for breakfast (or maybe it just seemed like it). I remembered the food smell permeating the train and it was not pleasant. I also remember it being very cold in WAS and we Miami girls were not used to that weather.
> 
> In college, I traveled Amtrak (early 70's) from Waldo to Fayetteville (changing trains in JAX). I was a smoker at the time  and was very pleased that the "women's lounge" had a couch and plenty of space for us smokers to hand out. We were not treated like second class citizens. Now that I am a non smoker, I am very happy that smoking is not allowed on trains.


Probably the East Coast Champion


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## frj1983 (Jan 12, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Pastor Dave said:
> 
> 
> > My first sleeper experiences were in a Slumbercoach and it was a nice way for a single to travel. Does anyone know when they would have been built? Would hey be older than some of the sleepers still on-line?
> ...



The whole issue about showering is, I think, a generational thing as well. When I was growing up (family of 8) we did not have a shower...we all took a bath once a week and then washed up from the bathroom sink the rest of the week. My Wife looks with pity/horror on her face when I tell her this. She and her Brother had their own bathroom with shower.

But I do remember the frist Superliner I's...they had no showers! You just washed up from the sink in the bathrooms. I remember when an Onboard Service Attendant told me that the I's were going to be retrofitted with showers (on a trip I was taking), I thought, wow, what a concept!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 12, 2011)

railiner said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Imagine a day when the train was still taken seriously enough to bother competing against.

I recall some long distance bus schedules which were near duplicates of specific train schedules as well.

i recall a scenicruiser from Cincinnati to Miami which came through Chattanooga pretty much on the schedule of the Royal Palm. I remember it actually had a name, like a train. And I THOUGHT it had reserved seats, stewardess and coffee.

Looking through old mid 50's brochures, I found a bus that called itself the Imperial which went from Cincinnati to Miami via Chattanooga. However, I see no mention of reserved seats, stewardess or coffee.

Google did not help much. I see the word "imperial" splashed around but not to the bus service noted above.

Anybody know if there was such a thing or an I just getting old and crazy?


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## railiner (Jan 12, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Bill Haithcoat said:
> ...


Not taking edit, will try again later.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 12, 2011)

railiner said:


> Imagine a day when the train was still taken seriously enough to bother competing against.


You mean like today? Cars and planes are still forced to compete with more modern trains in many industrialized countries that didn't spend the last fifty years resting on their laurels.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 12, 2011)

daxomni said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine a day when the train was still taken seriously enough to bother competing against.
> ...


Sure. Good point. My context was what I am most familiar with, the US.


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## dlagrua (Jan 12, 2011)

> The whole issue about showering is, I think, a generational thing as well. When I was growing up (family of 8) we did not have a shower...we all took a bath once a week and then washed up from the bathroom sink the rest of the week. My Wife looks with pity/horror on her face when I tell her this. She and her Brother had their own bathroom with shower.
> But I do remember the frist Superliner I's...they had no showers! You just washed up from the sink in the bathrooms. I remember when an Onboard Service Attendant told me that the I's were going to be retrofitted with showers (on a trip I was taking), I thought, wow, what a concept!


We would never take more than an overnight train trip without having access to a shower. Yes people in the old days didn't shower as much and if you go back to the days of the cave man they didn't shower at all. So what do they do? They just stunk like hell!!! I guess that they must have been fond of the smell of B.O.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 12, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Sure. Good point. My context was what I am most familiar with, the US.


Fair enough. I just think it's an important case to make if we're ever going to turn this situation around some day. It's nigh impossible to travel back in time and see all the great luxury trains of old, but it's certainly not impossible to bring over better ideas from more advanced cultures who kept on innovating while we sat around and stagnated.



dlagrua said:


> Yes people in the old days didn't shower as much and if you go back to the days of the cave man they didn't shower at all. So what do they do? They just stunk like hell!


I was under the impression that train stations or nearby establishments provided washrooms and related services for those who needed a quick shower but didn't have one on the train.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 12, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> We would never take more than an overnight train trip without having access to a shower. Yes people in the old days didn't shower as much and if you go back to the days of the cave man they didn't shower at all. So what do they do? They just stunk like hell!!! I guess that they must have been fond of the smell of B.O.


First of all, I'd assume their sense of smell was very limited, due to the pervasive smoke from tobacco. Second, if you are in an area full of a given smell, in general, you will stop smelling it in short order. My office is a small paradise to _Mus Domesticus_, _Mus Musculus_, _Peromyscus leucopus_, and _Meriones unguiculatus_, and as a result I have become pretty inured to the smell of rodent urine. I can notice it sometimes, just after entering the room, but in general I don't even notice its presence.

Now, if my dad comes in the room, he is usually overwhelmed by it. I'd imagine that the same thing once was when it came to the natural scent of human beings. One didn't notice it because people are almost incapable of using scent to useful purpose. Unlike most other mammals, we don't use scent to our advantage. If we did, the use of deodorants would be offensive to us.

On a side note, if anyone happens to be wondering what an excellent and fascinating pet is, Peromyscus leucopus, generally referred to misleadingly as a white footed mouse, would qualify. It is not a mouse. Mice are of the genus Mus, sub family Murinae, family Muridae. Peromyscus are not mice, they are Peromyscus, Neotominae, Cricetidae. They only thing they share genetically with mice is rough shape and rodentia teeth.

I have in my spare time been working on a project to document our pet Peromyscus, Sally's, intelligence. There are times where I wonder if she's testing me more than the other way around. While she can't vocalize on a sonic level I can hear, she has been learning communication on an impressive level. I think if she was interested, she could fully understand english. I clocked her at over 15 mph in her wheel, and have measured her ability to jump from a standing start to a height of 38.3 inches.

I'm babbling, aren't I?


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## railiner (Jan 12, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat--this is reply to your question in post #87 (I can't seem to quote with only your question...when I tried to remove the rest it didn't go through).

You are correct. Greyhound Lines in the late 1950's introduced "Golden Scenicruiser Service" on select routes, including the one you mention, with the amenities you mentioned. Several of these trips were "named trips", such as "Sun King Limited", Sun Maid Limited", etc. They ran from several origins in the midwest to Florida.

They were equipped with new single-level GMC PD4104 coaches. The service only lasted a brief period, and the coaches were converted to standard.

The competing National Trailways Bus System ran a network of extra-fare "Five-Star Luxury Service with similar amenities. There were also many earlier examples in the history of motorcoach service, including full Pullman-style sleepers.

The Trailways Five Star services ended in the '70's, last operated with "Golden Eagle" coaches. Greyhound also made another attempt with their "BusPlus" service in the northeast corridor in the early '70's. Didn't last long.

Other companies that come to mind are Jefferson Lines--at first with "Parlor Car Service" between the Minneapolis Airport and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn. Later they ran a hostess service between Kansas City and Des Moines.

Wisconsin-Michigan coaches ran one between Milwaukee and Green Bay.

The Ontario Northland Railway supplemented their "Northlander" train with bus service on an overnight schedule between Toronto, North Bay, and Timmins, On. It was marketed as "The ZZSleeperZZ--Slumber Lounge Coach". It had no food, but did have comfortable full recliners in a spacious two-and-one layout.

Nowadays, extra-fare bus services are operated by LimoLiner between New York and Boston, and Hampton Jitney between eastern Long Island and New York City. They also operate a seasonal auto-bus service from Long Island to Florida for the snow-birds. The autos are transported in accompanying car-carrier trucks.

I believe there are others around, one of which runs from Southern California to Las Vegas, Nv.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 12, 2011)

railiner said:


> Bill Haithcoat--this is reply to your question in post #87 (I can't seem to quote with only your question...when I tried to remove the rest it didn't go through).
> 
> You are correct. Greyhound Lines in the late 1950's introduced "Golden Scenicruiser Service" on select routes, including the one you mention, with the amenities you mentioned. Several of these trips were "named trips", such as "Sun King Limited", Sun Maid Limited", etc. They ran from several origins in the midwest to Florida.
> 
> ...


It was a pleasure re-learning all these memories. I did kind of know names like Golden Eagle,etc. I think Sun King Limited is the one which went through Chattanooga. Somehow I did not keep any brochures on the subject except the relatively non specific Imperial Service previously noted. Guess I am not going crazy after all.


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## sunchaser (Jan 13, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > We would never take more than an overnight train trip without having access to a shower. Yes people in the old days didn't shower as much and if you go back to the days of the cave man they didn't shower at all. So what do they do? They just stunk like hell!!! I guess that they must have been fond of the smell of B.O.
> ...


I too am one that desires to shower/bathe daily. I understand that years back they may not have bathed as often, but from what I understand, the lack of access to indoor plumbing may have been the reason. I had a classmate in high school (1970s)whose family had moved from back east, and their old house had no indoor plumbing. Human beings olfactory capabilities are limited. We actually can only smell three scents, then after that they all smell the same. I don't know how long it takes for the nose to recover. I liked your 'mouse' story!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 13, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Sure. Good point. My context was what I am most familiar with, the US.
> ...


I do not remember showers in the stations. I may have forgotten them or never knew they were there. But of course if they did exist I do not think my parents would have wanted me to use them, traveling alone. I took several trips from Chattanooga to San Francisco in coach (three nights in each direction) when I was much younger and not showering did not seem to be a problem.

Remember a couple of things: one does not get very dirty on a train,except in the old steam engine days and also many people smoked back then.

So I guess we were just used to it

I doubt if more than eight or nine trains had showers. A few had a rentable shower for sleeping car passengers in the lounge. The Crescent and the Broadway Limited had a single room called a Master Room. It's shower was only for the occupants of that room. The CZ had a drawing room which included a shower. Otherwise.....a good sponge bath if you were in sleeper.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 14, 2011)

> My office is a small paradise to Mus Domesticus, Mus Musculus, Peromyscus leucopus, and Meriones unguiculatus, and as a result I have become pretty inured to the smell of rodent urine. I can notice it sometimes, just after entering the room, but in general I don't even notice its presence.


Not sure if I should congratulate you, fear you, or hire you an exterminator?


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## George Harris (Jan 14, 2011)

Well remember the Scenicruiser. They were a little top heavy. Rode one several times as a child with Mother or just self and sister between Memphis and Jackson Tenn. My mother was subject to motion sickness and the extra swaying did not do her any good. Also rode one several times myself during college days. Generally preferred Trailways where there was a choice. One of the drivers commented that one big push behind the design was to allow more space for package freight. Greyhound, and also Trailways, were the road based equivalents to the Railway Express Agency. At one time, maybe still they make more profit off the freight than the passengers.


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## Pullman (Jan 15, 2011)

This is wonderful reading. Thank you all for posting.


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## George Harris (Jan 15, 2011)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Otherwise.....a good sponge bath if you were in sleeper.


Of even if not or at home. That is how you used to make it though the week without stinking. Haven't seen them in years, but in the past there was a somewhat expensive deodorant produce called Five Day Deodorant Pads. They worked. Speaking of: Remember the Dial soap TV add with the line, "Aren't you glad you use Dial?", then showing the person stepping into an elevator followed by the next line, "Don't you wish everybody did?"


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 16, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > My office is a small paradise to Mus Domesticus, Mus Musculus, Peromyscus leucopus, and Meriones unguiculatus, and as a result I have become pretty inured to the smell of rodent urine. I can notice it sometimes, just after entering the room, but in general I don't even notice its presence.
> 
> 
> Not sure if I should congratulate you, fear you, or hire you an exterminator?


My girlfriend and I study rodents. As I said, we're attempting to teach a permyscus leucopus English. With surprising success, the only limitation being that she happens to be a stubborn little animal, and she was initially convinced we were just trying to get her to do tricks like the other rodents. Once she figured out we were trying to improve communication between us, progress has been more rapid.

The assumption that humans and a select few aquatic mammals are the only higly intelligent life forms on this planet is inaccurate.


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## railiner (Jan 16, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Well remember the Scenicruiser. They were a little top heavy. Rode one several times as a child with Mother or just self and sister between Memphis and Jackson Tenn. My mother was subject to motion sickness and the extra swaying did not do her any good. Also rode one several times myself during college days. Generally preferred Trailways where there was a choice. One of the drivers commented that one big push behind the design was to allow more space for package freight. Greyhound, and also Trailways, were the road based equivalents to the Railway Express Agency. At one time, maybe still they make more profit off the freight than the passengers.


You are correct. The Scenicruiser's and Eagles, and later on the 4107's, 4903's, et al., were developed in the "hi-level" layout to dramatically increase the capacity for carrying bus package express. As a matter of fact, in their twilight years in the early '70's, when new MC-6's and MC-7's were displacing the ageing Scenicruiser's from their flagship roles on long-distance routes, many were converted to "combo" coaches in either an 18 or 33 seat configuration. They cut in a roll-up side door on the right rear side, and used belt-loaders at major terminals to load express. A bulkhead separated the cargo compartment from the seating area. The Scenicruiser was ideal as its lower-level restroom did not have to be relocated, and the Scenicruiser was the only mass-produced coach with dual wheels on its tag axle to help support the extra weight.

Bus package express began to decline with the advent of Federal Express and others that took most of the business away. Some advantages that the bus has over them is in some cases there is same-day service between some stations, and service on weekends and holidays.

Bus package express is still vital on some routes in Canada that have long once-a-day trips out to remote locations. They actually pull trailers behind the buses for additional capacity.


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## sunchaser (Jan 16, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > My office is a small paradise to Mus Domesticus, Mus Musculus, Peromyscus leucopus, and Meriones unguiculatus, and as a result I have become pretty inured to the smell of rodent urine. I can notice it sometimes, just after entering the room, but in general I don't even notice its presence.
> ...


Many people believe that parrots just repeat & do tricks, but ours understands & even makes up his own sentences. I don't 'teach' him words, he just picks up what we say. It can be pretty funny.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, GML, you and your 'woodmice' can enjoy studying English, it takes all sorts.


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## rrdude (Jan 17, 2011)

railiner said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Ha! Just picked up the 50th anniversary Blue-Ray CD of North By Northwest, and there is Cary Grant, stepping off of a Scenicruiser, in the middle of nowhere!


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## railiner (Jan 17, 2011)

rrdude said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Bill Haithcoat said:
> ...


My favorite movie of all time. I have seen it at least once a year since its 1959 release. Talk about "planes, trains, and automobiles'....this movie has it all!!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 17, 2011)

sunchaser said:


> Many people believe that parrots just repeat & do tricks, but ours understands & even makes up his own sentences. I don't 'teach' him words, he just picks up what we say. It can be pretty funny.


They absolutely do. Certain kinds of parrots (Greys especially) have a very high degree of intellect. Parrots are easier to teach, since they can make noises on a level people can hear. Humans have a hard time grasping they aren't the only intelligent life on this planet and try to deny all evidence so indicating.


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## Anderson (Jan 30, 2011)

This is a random but relevant aside:

Though I didn't get to talk with him as much as I might have liked, when I was talking with my grandfather for our birthday celebration (our B-days are two days apart, so we get together on the day in between), it turns out that when he lived in Cleveland, he worked as a corporate consultant of some sort. Given where Cleveland is located, at the time instead of getting "dropped" in the late night portion of the NEC-Chicago routes, it had overnight trains heading all of those places (and beyond)...and he was high enough up in the company (which did consultation work for the NY Central and the Pennsy to boot) that they sent him in the sleepers everywhere...which usually meant that he was doing a round trip each week.


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## George Harris (Jan 31, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Many people believe that parrots just repeat & do tricks, but ours understands & even makes up his own sentences. I don't 'teach' him words, he just picks up what we say. It can be pretty funny.
> ...


While we are off topic here: GML: These are probably the same people that believe that humans are born as blank slates and it is all about nurture, not nature. Anybody that has ever had two or more kids knows better, whatever they thought before. Personality differences begin before birth. As to animals: I was at least twice outsmarted by one dog we had. I'll skip the details, but on one she sure looked like she was laughing at me. She also had very good people judgment. If she did not like somebody, that was all I needed to know. Another who was a house dog would lie on the floor acting like she had no interest at all in any nibbles we might have on the coffee table. However, if the room was empty for more that a couple seconds, count that food gone.


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