# Viewliner 2 roomettes



## johnny.menhennet (Jan 4, 2012)

As we have heard, the Viewliner II roomettes will not feature a bathroom, and a roomette space will be converted to a public bathroom. With the extra space in the room now being available, how is the extra space going to be utilized?

And another question: I'm going on the LSL Chicago-Boston in April in a roomette. Do the Viewliner I roomettes have a shower like the Superliner bedroom bathrooms?


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## AlanB (Jan 4, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> As we have heard, the Viewliner II roomettes will not feature a bathroom, and a roomette space will be converted to a public bathroom. With the extra space in the room now being available, how is the extra space going to be utilized?


I believe that they are leaving the sink in the room, but I'm not certain. AFAIK however, the tapered beds will remain, since that makes it so much easier to climb up into the upper bunk. Also, without that taper, it would be near impossible to life a suitcase up into the cubbyhole. It's hard enough now with the taper, can't imagine what it would be like without it. So I assume that some sort of box step will be left in the space for the toilet for one to stand on.



johnny.menhennet said:


> And another question: I'm going on the LSL Chicago-Boston in April in a roomette. Do the Viewliner I roomettes have a shower like the Superliner bedroom bathrooms?


No showers in the roomette. If they put one in you'd flood the entire room and much of the car. It's not like a Bedroom where the toilet/shower are combined in a little room. The toilet in the Viewliner roomette is not enclosed, which is why those traveling with others don't like it. One person has to go stand in the hall in order for the other to do their business.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jan 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > As we have heard, the Viewliner II roomettes will not feature a bathroom, and a roomette space will be converted to a public bathroom. With the extra space in the room now being available, how is the extra space going to be utilized?
> ...


Thanks for the insight. That is helpful to know. In your own opinion, do you think the change to public bathroom is for the better?


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## Blackwolf (Jan 5, 2012)

Alan,

I'm interested in knowing your info sources! But if they are secret, so be it. 

Any other changes with the new Viewliner cars aside from the toilet going away from the roomettes and the addition of a public restroom? I personally love that the toilet is going by-by... When taking my dad on LD Amtrak a year ago for the first time, he was so disgusted with that thing being in there that he took the top bunk just to get away from it while sleeping.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> In your own opinion, do you think the change to public bathroom is for the better?


I have mixed feelings personally. I dislike the idea when I'm traveling solo, was nice to drop down from the upper bunk in the middle of the night if nature called. I like the idea however for when my mom is tagging along as it leads to the old problem of one of us needing to hang out in the hall.

I think in general for Amtrak however than it will be a good things. It reduces the amount of time needed to clean the car and turn it. Additionally it's fewer pipes that need maintenance and that they need to worry about freezing in the winter. Might also allow them to reduce the size of the vacuum system too.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Alan,
> 
> I'm interested in knowing your info sources! But if they are secret, so be it.


I got a peek at some drawings a few years back that detail many of the changes, some of which have since been confirmed by Amtrak, like the toilets going away. And I'm pretty good at remembering things, if I say so myself. :lol:



Blackwolf said:


> Any other changes with the new Viewliner cars aside from the toilet going away from the roomettes and the addition of a public restroom? I personally love that the toilet is going by-by... When taking my dad on LD Amtrak a year ago for the first time, he was so disgusted with that thing being in there that he took the top bunk just to get away from it while sleeping.


Coffee maker moves down between the B Bedroom and roomette #1.


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## kentuckian1977 (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm also curious to see how they handle things while there are both Viewliner I's and II's in service. Will they keep only I's on certain trains and go with all II's on others, or what? Would seem they might, or otherwise you'd have no way of knowing whether or not you had the in-room toilet, which would matter since some love it and some hate it.


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## rrdude (Jan 5, 2012)

jpnberea said:


> I'm also curious to see how they handle things while there are both Viewliner I's and II's in service. Will they keep only I's on certain trains and go with all II's on others, or what? Would seem they might, or otherwise you'd have no way of knowing whether or not you had the in-room toilet, which would matter since some love it and some hate it.


I'd have no problem if Amtrak "mixed and matched" the old and new Viewliners. "Don't get a toilet in your room?" Walk down the hall. I cannot believe that this is often a question or request to the resv center. Although, after the rollout of the new Viewliners, travelers who like (yuck, yuck, yuck) the toilet in their room, will try to request next time.........Ahhh, the fickle traveling public.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

jpnberea said:


> I'm also curious to see how they handle things while there are both Viewliner I's and II's in service. Will they keep only I's on certain trains and go with all II's on others, or what? Would seem they might, or otherwise you'd have no way of knowing whether or not you had the in-room toilet, which would matter since some love it and some hate it.


Amtrak will have no choice but to keep the Viewliner II's on select routes and separate from the other runs using the older Viewliner I's. The reason for this is that the II's will only have 11 revenue roomettes. If they mix & move the cars around, ARROW will sell 12 roomettes always and Amtrak will have frequent & major problems when all 12 rooms are sold and a Viewliner II gets used with only 11 rooms.

Yes Amtrak can tell ARROW how many rooms are in each car, but the problem is that sales start 11 months out and Amtrak doesn't assign a specific car to a run until the day before the run typically. So the only easy way to control things is to only assign Viewliner II's to select routes, most likely the Cardinal & the Lake Shore, and use the I's on all the other routes.

This is not to say that in a situation where a car gets bad ordered at the very last minute in Sunnyside Yard that Amtrak might not mix things up just to accommodate as many passengers as possible, but as a general rule you will not find I's mixing with II's.

At least until such time as the I's are reconfigured to the same standards as the II's, if that ever happens.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 5, 2012)

rrdude said:


> "Don't get a toilet in your room?" Walk down the hall. I cannot believe that this is often a question or request to the resv center.


I have ridden enough Amtrak trains to know what those "common use" toilets look like, after an extended LD ride. I much prefer my own, which if I keep it clean, stays clean.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 5, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Amtrak will have no choice but to keep the Viewliner II's on select routes and separate from the other runs using the older Viewliner I's. The reason for this is that the II's will only have 11 revenue roomettes. If they mix & move the cars around, ARROW will sell 12 roomettes always and Amtrak will have frequent & major problems when all 12 rooms are sold and a Viewliner II gets used with only 11 rooms.


Does there still need to be a dedicated Attendant's roomette, when there is baggage/dorm car too?

There could be a consistent 12 roomettes, if its a Viewliner I the Attendant sleeps in the attendant room, if its a Viewliner II the Attendant sleeps in the baggage/dorm car.


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## Golden grrl (Jan 5, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Thanks for the insight. That is helpful to know. In your own opinion, do you think the change to public bathroom is for the better?


Okay, you didn't ask me, Johnny, but here's my 2 cents.

We rode our first Viewliner last month. All other trips had been coach, business or else Superliner sleepers. We liked Superliners much better. Sure, having the toilet in the roomette is convenient in the middle of the night, but you're stuck with it all day too. Takes up room I'd prefer to have for reclining or storage [since anything you put on top of the toilet lid necessarily must be moved to use the toilet]. And should one be unlucky enough to have a non-functioning toilet and be on a full sleeper, it's going to be pretty embarrassing to find someone willing to let you use theirs, or to walk all the way through the diner and cafe car back to a coach restroom. To my mind, changing to public restrooms [notice the plural] would be a better use of space and resources in a newer car.

Here's the ONE big bonus of present Viewliner roomette over a Superliner one - the top bunk has its own windows. So you can see out without going downstairs. And because there are upper windows, there is much more head room above the bunk, making it _much_ easier to get into and out of the bunk, and to read or use a computer or smartphone up there. If you are traveling alone in a roomette, I'd think this more functional upper bunk might make the Viewliner a better deal. If a couple of people traveling together are debating between a bedroom or two roomettes on a Viewliner, and the buckets are such that the cost is similar, I think the two roomettes would work far better. YMMV


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## afigg (Jan 5, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Amtrak will have no choice but to keep the Viewliner II's on select routes and separate from the other runs using the older Viewliner I's. The reason for this is that the II's will only have 11 revenue roomettes. If they mix & move the cars around, ARROW will sell 12 roomettes always and Amtrak will have frequent & major problems when all 12 rooms are sold and a Viewliner II gets used with only 11 rooms.
> 
> Yes Amtrak can tell ARROW how many rooms are in each car, but the problem is that sales start 11 months out and Amtrak doesn't assign a specific car to a run until the day before the run typically. So the only easy way to control things is to only assign Viewliner II's to select routes, most likely the Cardinal & the Lake Shore, and use the I's on all the other routes.
> 
> ...


Placing the Vw IIs on specific routes can work as the cars enter revenue service, but as time goes on, keeping the two configuration separate in operational use is likely to become a major management hassle. The equipment numbers don't necessarily divide that cleanly between the routes along with peak period surge additions for the Silver trains.

If Amtrak implements a major mid-life overhaul and reconfiguration program for the Vw Is to install a restroom module & take the toilet out of the 11 remaining roomettes, which might take 2-3 years, there would be a transition period with a changing mix of cars with 11 vs 12 roomettes. One solution would be to drop the 12th roomette from advance sales entirely, which of course would be a revenue hit, but Amtrak is gaining roomettes back with the baggage-dorms. Could make up somewhat for the lost of advance sales lost by making the roomette available for on-board sales once the Conductor knows that they will have a open roomette. E-ticketing should make that easier to do.

Wonder what it would cost to overhaul and convert the 50 existing Viewliners? Could replace all 11 roomette modules and add 1 restroom module with plumbing changes. Less expensive would be to modify the 11 existing roomettes and purchase 50 restroom modules. Are there any hints on Amtrak's plans with regards to the V I sleepers?


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## printman2000 (Jan 5, 2012)

AlanB said:


> jpnberea said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also curious to see how they handle things while there are both Viewliner I's and II's in service. Will they keep only I's on certain trains and go with all II's on others, or what? Would seem they might, or otherwise you'd have no way of knowing whether or not you had the in-room toilet, which would matter since some love it and some hate it.
> ...


OR, they could simply only sell 11 roomettes no matter which car they have. Big waste of money, but I could see them doing it. Perhaps that extra rommette would be sold onboard.


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## printman2000 (Jan 5, 2012)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I have ridden enough Amtrak trains to know what those "common use" toilets look like, after an extended LD ride. I much prefer my own, which if I keep it clean, stays clean.


Coach restrooms can get really bad, yes. But in my experience, the sleeper common restrooms are usually kept clean. Either by passengers being more respectful or by the attendants.


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## Donctor (Jan 5, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> OR, they could simply only sell 11 roomettes no matter which car they have.


That's my guess.


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## ehbowen (Jan 5, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > I have ridden enough Amtrak trains to know what those "common use" toilets look like, after an extended LD ride. I much prefer my own, which if I keep it clean, stays clean.
> ...


I have yet to find a sleeping car attendant who thinks that his job description includes emptying the trash bins in the restrooms....


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## Montanan (Jan 5, 2012)

I hope they keep the folding sinks in the Viewliners, but I wouldn't miss the toilets at all. It's more than a little creepy thinking about sleeping in a bed just a few inches away from a toilet of unknown cleanliness, that a stranger had used just a few hours earlier. (Or a few *minutes* earlier, if I boarded at an intermediate stop -- in which case it's frighteningly likely that the toilet hadn't been properly disinfected since its last use.)


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## Shortline (Jan 5, 2012)

Montanan said:


> I hope they keep the folding sinks in the Viewliners, but I wouldn't miss the toilets at all. It's more than a little creepy thinking about sleeping in a bed just a few inches away from a toilet of unknown cleanliness, that a stranger had used just a few hours earlier. (Or a few *minutes* earlier, if I boarded at an intermediate stop -- in which case it's frighteningly likely that the toilet hadn't been properly disinfected since its last use.)


Yeah, I'm of the same opinion. Trusting the previous passengers aim on a moving target is not something I like....I've never taken a Viewliner sleeper before, first time will be a short overnighter in a few weeks, but I'm not a fan of the in room toilets, without them enclosed like on the BR's. Looks too much like a bad prison movie to me. No need for them in the roomettes. I do like the idea of a sink/basin though, but am slightly afraid of what they might be used for by some people, once the toilettes are no longer there....might be best to get rid of both, and be done with it.


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Montanan said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they keep the folding sinks in the Viewliners, but I wouldn't miss the toilets at all. It's more than a little creepy thinking about sleeping in a bed just a few inches away from a toilet of unknown cleanliness, that a stranger had used just a few hours earlier. (Or a few *minutes* earlier, if I boarded at an intermediate stop -- in which case it's frighteningly likely that the toilet hadn't been properly disinfected since its last use.)
> ...


SL, I was all for the take the toilet out and keep the sink until you described the possibilities. I an now 100% on board with you. Now my wife did like the toilet in the room, but of course being a woman she did her inspection and brought it up to her minimum standards with the limited stuff we brought. After (28) years in the NAVY sometimes living with 4,000-6,000 of my closest friends on an aircraft carrier I am not so picky, but you convinced me otherwise.

I would be interested in the ladies perspective on in room toilets

NAVYBLUE


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 5, 2012)

After reading the last 2 posts, I'll never look at a train sink the same  :angry: On long distance runs, I always throw a travel pack of disinfecting wipes in my grip.


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

AlanB said:


> jpnberea said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also curious to see how they handle things while there are both Viewliner I's and II's in service. Will they keep only I's on certain trains and go with all II's on others, or what? Would seem they might, or otherwise you'd have no way of knowing whether or not you had the in-room toilet, which would matter since some love it and some hate it.
> ...


Alan,

What is the "master plan" ? Will all LDs eventually be Viewliner I and Viewliner II consists or will they keep some of the Superliners. From LAX-CHI we were in a roomette and upgraded to a BR for $50 and I thought I hit the lottery. I thought the Superliner roomette was a bit tight but would have made do if an upgrade was not available.

From CHI-BAL took the Cardinal and really liked the setup with the roomette. I liked the idea of the upper bunk as it "appeared" a little bigger. The window upstairs was a plus. The luggage storage area was a plus, the light control downstairs and upstairs was a plus, the toilet was a plus(for wife especially), the temp controls appeared to work better than the Superliner. It also seemed "newer and more spiffy"

Don't laugh, but when I went to bed, the lights are all out, door curtains are pulled shut, you are away from the town lights, the curtain is pulled back, you are on your back with your head propped up, I said this is the closest Amtrak can get me to a "magic carpet" ride. It is hard to describe. Maybe "serenity" the word.

NAVYBLUE


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 5, 2012)

Sure beats the comparments aboard ship right Master Chief??( I was a lowly E-5 so never got to live in Chiefs Country!)I'd think a Superliner Roomette would be comprable to a Submarine compartment no??? :unsure:


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## amamba (Jan 5, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> I would be interested in the ladies perspective on in room toilets
> 
> NAVYBLUE


I don't mind the in-room toilets, but I can see how they are a major issue when you are traveling with someone else. As AlanB mentioned, someone has to stand in the hall, which is not fun in the middle of the night or whatever.

I don't have the "ick" factor that others have about the toilet, and I think its convenient for the single traveler. But then again, I am not known for being a fastidious cleaner. I just don't really think about stuff like germs and it never really occurs to me to worry about poor aim of previous pax in the toilet area. It just doesn't bother me. But I can understand why others DO have the ick factor.

However,I think probably in the long run it makes more sense to remove them from the room and then add in the public toilets down the hall. I would hope that they could put in two toilets, but my guess is that is not the case based on the idea of only removing one roomette and putting the toilet there.


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## Blackwolf (Jan 5, 2012)

Removing the toilets from the common room space is a plus-plus in my mind. Its not so much the cleanliness of the toilet itself that has me squicked, its the proximity of a very absorbent (and impossible to truly clean) seat cushion to said toilet. In an actual inclosed bathroom, bad aim is easily dealt with on a plastic wall that can be wiped clean. When traveling alone, I'd never sit in the seat beside the toilet even if it means riding backward. Also, the head of the bed when made up had better be opposite! When traveling together with someone else, its a flip of the coin. As stated earlier, my 66 year old father was so disgusted by it he demanded the upper bunk to get away from it. In another thread, it was so disturbing to him (the Viewliner was his first Amtrak overnight experience) that on our connecting train (the California Zephyr, which is obviously Superliner-equipped) he would not listen to me about the lack of a toilet in the room with us and paid high-bucket for a bedroom upgrade while in Chicago Union Station. He did this just so he knew the toilet was in a separate closet, as he had seen in the Viewliner bedroom aboard the LSL he looked at while disembarking.

The other plus? When you have a complete vacuum failure on your sleeper and ALL the toilets stop working, there is another sleeper right next door with public facilities to use. Yeah, not ideal, but better than hoofing it the whole length of the train!


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## pennyk (Jan 5, 2012)

amamba said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > I would be interested in the ladies perspective on in room toilets
> ...


I like the in-room toilets. I travel alone, so I do not run into the problem of having someone standing in the hall. I always bring disinfectant wipes with me and clean the entire room (including bedrooms) as soon as I arrive. The drink holders in roomettes usually are dirtier than the toilet area (in my opinion).


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## me_little_me (Jan 5, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> Sure beats the comparments aboard ship right Master Chief??( I was a lowly E-5 so never got to live in Chiefs Country!)I'd think a Superliner Roomette would be comprable to a Submarine compartment no??? :unsure:


You had windows in your submarine? Wow!

Conductor, there's an enemy destroyer ahead. Shall we load the torpedo tubes?

Dive sound Dive! Dive! [Water leaks in around the sleeper doors]

Hey I saw those old movies. I know how much better it is in the Navy than in the Air Force. We had it rough. :giggle:


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## afigg (Jan 5, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> What is the "master plan" ? Will all LDs eventually be Viewliner I and Viewliner II consists or will they keep some of the Superliners. From LAX-CHI we were in a roomette and upgraded to a BR for $50 and I thought I hit the lottery. I thought the Superliner roomette was a bit tight but would have made do if an upgrade was not available.


To answer your question, the Viewliner sleepers, diners, and baggage-dorms are for the eastern single level LD trains only that run to and from NYP. These cars can also utilize high level platforms which are used on the NEC and in the east and will be implemented on all Keystone East and New Haven to Springfield line stations.

The western LD trains with Superliners will stay with bi-level cars and will someday be replaced and/or expanded with Superliner IIIs. The mid-West corridor trains operating out of Chicago will be upgraded with bi-level corridor cars which will replace/displace the single level Horizon cars. The Superliners can access DC Union Station, so the Capitol Limited can run with Superliners. The Superliners can't use high level platforms so besides the height clearance issues, there is this fundamental difference between the eastern trains and the mid-Western & west coast trains. The exception, of course, are the single level Talgo tilt train sets which are used on the Cascades and will be on the Chicago to Milwaukee corridor sometime later this year.

[edit fix for HLP use]


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> Sure beats the comparments aboard ship right Master Chief??( I was a lowly E-5 so never got to live in Chiefs Country!)I'd think a Superliner Roomette would be comprable to a Submarine compartment no??? :unsure:


Roger on that. I could never figure why my chiefs where gone all the time or were slightly more rotund(before PT/weight standards) than us E4-E6s when I was at sea. I was an E6 on the USS Forrestal (CV-59) with a A7 squadron. We went through the regular chow line and then had a first class mess to eat separately that had milk and soda dispensers, tables, TV. Then I made chief. Died and went to heaven. I was initiated and then had use of the chief's mess for (30) days before we pulled into Mayport, FL at the end of the 6 month "cruise"

We pulled our rations from the same supply room as the general mess but the difference was preparing for 4,000-5,000 and for 200-300 E7-E9s. Had are own dedicated E5 or E6 cook, an assistant cook(E4) and 3 mess cooks. Made to orders omelets, plus biscuits, gravy, bacon, sausage etc. Tuesday Mexican night, Wednesday steak night, Thursday Italian night and Friday night was lobster, shrimp, OR scallops plus baked and fried fish. Monday was made to order Angus single or double burgers with fries, onion rings, potato salad, macaroni salad, coleslaw.

Which night do you think was the most popular ? You probably guessed Friday like I would have if I didn't know the answer. it was Monday for the burgers. It was incredible. I think it was a connection with back home and eating at the fast food places with the family. There would be a line 10 minutes before the service line was open.

I never became a "mess commando". I figured my job was train, educate, protect and guide my sailors to become productive sailors but after hours enjoyed the camaraderie and learning form the wise, old senior/master chiefs.

When I was on a submarine tender (73-75), the racks on subs were like surface ship racks but were a little wider, longer with nicer mattresses, curtains. If you stacked them (3) high they would I would say be about the size of a Viewliner roomette. They (subs) in the 80/90s have since become a lot nicer/larger with individual A/C vents/controls, piped in music connections, DVD players. With the 90 days underwater they try to make it as good as they can for them.

Speaking of you being an E5. My philosophy had always been that the E5, E7 and the Lieutenant are the backbone of the Navy. The E5 is where the rubber meets the road and runs the shops (3-10) people. The E7 runs division (2-3 shops) and the Lieutenant is the liaison between the division chief and the department. head. I felt as a division Chief my job was to take care of the troops, keep the Lieutenant away from the division by doing a good job and to train the junior officers and keep the Dept Head from beating up on my division officer. I told all my division officers if the Dept Head calls that there was a screw up he better call me when he started to the D.H office and told him let me do the talking. Before we went in he was the blame, after we left the D.H was convinced I was the blame. The good D.H's knew what I was doing. That is how to protect your E5s and how you saved the good(but still inexperienced) Lieutenants so if they wanted to make it a career they had a good chance to make O4/O5.

I must have done OK as I made E7 in 11 yrs, E8 in 14 and E9 in 17. It wasn't without spilling some blood though.

NAVYBLUE


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Sure beats the comparments aboard ship right Master Chief??( I was a lowly E-5 so never got to live in Chiefs Country!)I'd think a Superliner Roomette would be comprable to a Submarine compartment no??? :unsure:
> ...


Air Force ? You mean the "country club" of the DOD (LOL)

NAVYBLUE


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

afigg said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > What is the "master plan" ? Will all LDs eventually be Viewliner I and Viewliner II consists or will they keep some of the Superliners. From LAX-CHI we were in a roomette and upgraded to a BR for $50 and I thought I hit the lottery. I thought the Superliner roomette was a bit tight but would have made do if an upgrade was not available.
> ...



Thank you for the reply. I really liked the Cardinal roomette and like I said the "magic carpet" ride was "serene" The window up top was just so nifty.

NAVYBLUE


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

Amamba/pennyk

Thanks for your replies. The woman's prospective always adds to the discussion. We as men "sometimes" don't see the forest for the trees. And women have also learned the "hover" technique. Guys if you don't know about the "hover". please ask your spouse/girlfriend or lady friends.

NAVYBLUE


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## pennyk (Jan 5, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> Amamba/pennyk
> 
> Thanks for your replies. The woman's prospective always adds to the discussion. We as men "sometimes" don't see the forest for the trees. And women have also learned the "hover" technique. Guys if you don't know about the "hover". please ask your spouse/girlfriend or lady friends.
> 
> NAVYBLUE


Hovering is a good quad workout also. :lol: (I have very strong quads)


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 5, 2012)

pennyk said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > Amamba/pennyk
> ...


Way too much personal info there Penny (LOL)

NAVYBLUE


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak will have no choice but to keep the Viewliner II's on select routes and separate from the other runs using the older Viewliner I's. The reason for this is that the II's will only have 11 revenue roomettes. If they mix & move the cars around, ARROW will sell 12 roomettes always and Amtrak will have frequent & major problems when all 12 rooms are sold and a Viewliner II gets used with only 11 rooms.
> ...


The answer is yes. First, Amtrak wants the attendant to be where the passengers can find him/her. Second, that special room is outfitted to indicate to the attendant that someone has pressed their call button.

Granted currently many of those call buttons don't work since the removal of the TV screens disabled parts of the PA system.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

afigg said:


> Placing the Vw IIs on specific routes can work as the cars enter revenue service, but as time goes on, keeping the two configuration separate in operational use is likely to become a major management hassle. The equipment numbers don't necessarily divide that cleanly between the routes along with peak period surge additions for the Silver trains.


Well again, I'm not sure that it would be those two routes that I've mentioned. I've heard rumors, but nothing concrete. And it shouldn't be that hard to maintain a separation, Sunnyside would have the biggest problem.

As for peak surge additions, that's something that Amtrak can plan specifically for and they can limit sales for say a Viewliner II placed onto a Silver for Thanksgiving. And if the luck of the draw works out that a Viewliner I lands in its place, well not that big of a deal and they can always hope that a conductor will do an onboard upgrade.



afigg said:


> If Amtrak implements a major mid-life overhaul and reconfiguration program for the Vw Is to install a restroom module & take the toilet out of the 11 remaining roomettes, which might take 2-3 years, there would be a transition period with a changing mix of cars with 11 vs 12 roomettes. One solution would be to drop the 12th roomette from advance sales entirely, which of course would be a revenue hit, but Amtrak is gaining roomettes back with the baggage-dorms. Could make up somewhat for the lost of advance sales lost by making the roomette available for on-board sales once the Conductor knows that they will have a open roomette. E-ticketing should make that easier to do.
> Wonder what it would cost to overhaul and convert the 50 existing Viewliners? Could replace all 11 roomette modules and add 1 restroom module with plumbing changes. Less expensive would be to modify the 11 existing roomettes and purchase 50 restroom modules. Are there any hints on Amtrak's plans with regards to the V I sleepers?


I've not heard of any official plans; but if Amtrak were smart they would, as things wind down from the Viewliner II order, place an order for enough modules to redo the existing fleet of 50 cars. Since the Viewliners are modular in construction, one simply unbolts the big panel on one side of the car, unhooks plumbing & electric, unbolts each room and slides it out and into the trash. Then you slide in all the new modules, bolt down, rewire & plumb, toss in some new hall carpeting and viola you've got a refurbished Viewliner.

Assuming that crews can also work on the undercarriage stuff at the same time that the modules are being exchanged, I'd estimate that Amtrak could refurbish a car in one months time. That's considerably less than the 3 months per car that Amtrak spent refurbishing the Superliner I sleepers. And Amtrak wasn't even redoing things like the electrical system, vacuum system, and water system. They just redid the rooms & bathrooms, the cosmetic stuff that the passenger sees, but not the stuff that actually makes the car work.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

printman2000 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > jpnberea said:
> ...


Well anything can of course be changed once the cars start to arrive. But last I knew the plan was route segregation, not reducing available inventory for all sleepers to 11 roomettes.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> What is the "master plan" ? Will all LDs eventually be Viewliner I and Viewliner II consists or will they keep some of the Superliners. From LAX-CHI we were in a roomette and upgraded to a BR for $50 and I thought I hit the lottery. I thought the Superliner roomette was a bit tight but would have made do if an upgrade was not available.


Well the long range fleet plan released by Amtrak shows that Amtrak plans to continue running Superliner cars on all trains that don't serve NY and its low clearances.

Of course lack of funding from Congress could force a change in that plan, but even then I'm not sure that they would resort to trying to buy Viewliners for the trains currently using Superliners.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

amamba said:


> I would hope that they could put in two toilets, but my guess is that is not the case based on the idea of only removing one roomette and putting the toilet there.


You don't have to hope; the plan is for two toilets which will indeed fit into the space of one roomette.

If you think about the lower level of a Superliner, one side has the family room with 2 roomettes in front of that on each side for a total of 4 roomettes. The luggage rack on one side and the stairs and electrical cabinets on the other side take the space of another roomette.

Then you have the door to the outside on each side.

Starting from the other side you have the H-room and then 2 toilets on one side, the side where the beds from the H-room extend past the door to the H-room. On the other side there is 1 bathroom, then the combo changing room/public shower. Well that combo room, as well as the two bathrooms on the other side occupy the space of a roomette.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> When traveling alone, I'd never sit in the seat beside the toilet even if it means riding backward. Also, the head of the bed when made up had better be opposite! When traveling together with someone else, its a flip of the coin.


It's not possible to make up the bed in such a fashion that your head ends up next to the toilet. Or perhaps I should say that you could try, but you would be very uncomfortable since the beds are tapered at that end where the toilet is. A skinny person would be ok, but really anyone else would find the narrow width at that end of the bed uncomfortable. At the head end, farthest from the toilet, the bed is 2'4" wide. It drops down by at least a good 6 inches, if not more at the foot end of the bed. The same is true for the upper bunk.

Amtrak had mattresses custom made for this taper, so you can't place the mattress the other way, it won't fit without folding it. And the crews are all taught to make up the bed with the sheets set to have your head at the wider end of the bed.

So again, if you wanted to reverse things you would have to remake the bed yourself, the crew member will not do it for you.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 5, 2012)

While I prefer my head away from the pot in a Viewliner (though I always take the Upper), this could "violate" the safety protocol of setting feet in the direction of travel to minimize injury in the event of a derailment. I actually never thought about that until an SCA on the _*Texas Eagle*_ explained it a few years ago. Plus it is in the Manual if I recall correctly, at least for Superliners.


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2012)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> While I prefer my head away from the pot in a Viewliner (though I always take the Upper), this could "violate" the safety protocol of setting feet in the direction of travel to minimize injury in the event of a derailment. I actually never thought about that until an SCA on the _*Texas Eagle*_ explained it a few years ago. Plus it is in the Manual if I recall correctly, at least for Superliners.


I've been head first in Superliners many, many times.

Not sure what's in the book, but again it's clearly not followed.


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## Donctor (Jan 5, 2012)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> While I prefer my head away from the pot in a Viewliner (though I always take the Upper), this could "violate" the safety protocol of setting feet in the direction of travel to minimize injury in the event of a derailment. I actually never thought about that until an SCA on the _*Texas Eagle*_ explained it a few years ago. Plus it is in the Manual if I recall correctly, at least for Superliners.


I was told the same thing by two different SCAs on the Texas Eagle.


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## Gord (Jan 5, 2012)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > "Don't get a toilet in your room?" Walk down the hall. I cannot believe that this is often a question or request to the resv center.
> ...


Yep, me too, lots of messy, inconsiderate types out there. Then there's always the clown that's in the common washroom for a long. long time when you need to to go. Much prefer to have my own in the room.

Gord


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## Blackwolf (Jan 5, 2012)

I've heard and read many tales about the small TV's that were installed originally on Viewliner sleepers, but I have never actually seen one with them still there. Something of a tangent considering this is a thread about the new VL2 cars, but what were the details on those TV's? Did they only come in the bedrooms or did roomettes have them too? And where where they placed? Does anyone have links to pictures?

Likely not, but I don't suppose Amtrak will re-approach the idea of TV's in sleepers with this new order? The technology has FAR advanced from where it was in mid 90's, and I'm sure something like what the airlines have done could quite easily (and inexpensively) be installed with no issues of theft of VHS tapes this time around.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jan 5, 2012)

Two more questions:

1) On Superliner trains, there is a public shower on the lower level of sleeping cars, for use by all classes of sleeper pax. The bedrooms have their own shower, and I believe the the Viewliner bedrooms do too. Is there any shower for viewliner roomette pax currently, and will there be in the second edition?

2) Even though you have made the well-received point that the cars should not be mixed, on the off-chance that they are, would Amtrak sell roomettes for one at a different price than the other, for the different in-room amenities involved?


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## AlanB (Jan 6, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> I've heard and read many tales about the small TV's that were installed originally on Viewliner sleepers, but I have never actually seen one with them still there. Something of a tangent considering this is a thread about the new VL2 cars, but what were the details on those TV's? Did they only come in the bedrooms or did roomettes have them too? And where where they placed? Does anyone have links to pictures?
> 
> Likely not, but I don't suppose Amtrak will re-approach the idea of TV's in sleepers with this new order? The technology has FAR advanced from where it was in mid 90's, and I'm sure something like what the airlines have done could quite easily (and inexpensively) be installed with no issues of theft of VHS tapes this time around.


Amtrak built the Viewliners with a small 5 inch, IIRC, LCD TV screen in each room including the attendants room. That is to say, the H-room, 2 Bedrooms, and all roomettes had this TV. In the Roomettes it was opposite the toilet above that area where one could place a small bag on the shelf next to the armrest or hang a coat/garment bag. There is still a small metal plate about 1 inch tall and 3 inches wide that covers the hole where the screen was mounted.

There were two VCR's on the lower shelfs in the linen closest sandwiched in between the B Bedroom and the #1 roomette. Amtrak purchased specially prepared VCR tapes for this that contained First run movies, they were out of theatres but not yet on HBO, etc; a couple of comedy shows; and usually one or two cartoons for the kiddies. You set the channel indicator in your room to either channel 4 or 5 to view & hear the shows on the two tapes. Each tape had different content and would run approximately 5 to 6 hours on average, before starting over again.

Finally, I don't see Amtrak ever revisiting this idea. Especially with the coffee pot moving to this area in the new Viewliners. It just doesn't pay for them anymore, especially when easily 1/2 if not more people now travel with their own entertainment.


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## AlanB (Jan 6, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Two more questions:
> 
> 1) On Superliner trains, there is a public shower on the lower level of sleeping cars, for use by all classes of sleeper pax. The bedrooms have their own shower, and I believe the the Viewliner bedrooms do too. Is there any shower for viewliner roomette pax currently, and will there be in the second edition?


Yes, the current Viewliner's have a public shower in what would be room #13 right at the end of the car. The attendant is in room #14, directly opposite. The shower is open to all in the car, even those in the Bedroom if they desire. And I have desired in the past. 

There is also a shower in the H-Room too.



johnny.menhennet said:


> 2) Even though you have made the well-received point that the cars should not be mixed, on the off-chance that they are, would Amtrak sell roomettes for one at a different price than the other, for the different in-room amenities involved?


I would think that Amtrak would not bother with the hassle of programming different price points for a roomette in a I vs. a roomette in a II for such an occasion, but who knows for sure. I believe that it is technically possible for them to do so; just don't think that they'd bother unless it became a common occurrence.


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## amamba (Jan 6, 2012)

Alan, thanks for letting us know about the two toilets. That is great news! And now that you have explained it, it makes perfect sense.


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## Hanno (Jan 7, 2012)

Any chance the Cardinal could become a daily when the Viewliner II's become available and when are the first II's due to come into service?


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## AlanB (Jan 7, 2012)

A daily Cardinal is far more dependent on other factors than the new Viewliner's.

Last report is that one of the first new cars should roll off the line very late this year. Most likely that means that it won't see any revenue service until sometimes in 2013.


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## MattW (Jan 7, 2012)

About mixing the Viewliner I and IIs, wouldn't there still likely be a net gain of revenue sleeper space even if you're not selling one room per sleeper because of the baggage/dorm cars? Using the Crescent, as I understand it, currently 6-8 roomettes are taken by crew. Once the baggage dorms come online, all sleeper space would then be revenue space, correct? If ARROW had to be setup to only sell 11 roomettes instead of 12 for all sleepers, even where 12 are available, wouldn't that mean that Amtrak would still be gaining 4-6 revenue roomettes over the current situation once the baggage/dorms come online?


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## johnny.menhennet (Jan 7, 2012)

MattW said:


> About mixing the Viewliner I and IIs, wouldn't there still likely be a net gain of revenue sleeper space even if you're not selling one room per sleeper because of the baggage/dorm cars? Using the Crescent, as I understand it, currently 6-8 roomettes are taken by crew. Once the baggage dorms come online, all sleeper space would then be revenue space, correct? If ARROW had to be setup to only sell 11 roomettes instead of 12 for all sleepers, even where 12 are available, wouldn't that mean that Amtrak would still be gaining 4-6 revenue roomettes over the current situation once the baggage/dorms come online?


But with mixing the cars, you'd have the issue of "some pax want toilets in their room, some do not", and you might have to set up dif price categories for each, but this would be hard, because Sunnyside/other yards can throw on whatever they want/bad-ordered stuff would screw it up


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## jis (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't think Amtrak will set up different price category for something that they eventually intend to get rid of.


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## Donctor (Jan 7, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> But with mixing the cars, you'd have the issue of "some pax want toilets in their room, some do not", and you might have to set up dif price categories for each, but this would be hard, because Sunnyside/other yards can throw on whatever they want/bad-ordered stuff would screw it up


The likelihood that such an issue would be taken seriously is very small.

As Jis said, the older Viewliners should be losing the toilets.


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## blueman271 (Jan 7, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Sure beats the comparments aboard ship right Master Chief??( I was a lowly E-5 so never got to live in Chiefs Country!)I'd think a Superliner Roomette would be comprable to a Submarine compartment no??? :unsure:
> ...


Master Chief,

I'm a second class A-Ganger stationed onboard the USS Scranton and our berthing isn't nearly as nice as a viewliner sleeper nor do we have piped in music or DVD players. I'm 6'3 and I can't stretch out in my rack. I'm not complaining nor am I trying tone a smart-ass I'm simply trying to point out that submarine life isn't always as easy as it's made out to be.

-MM2(SS) Landers


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 7, 2012)

blueman271 said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > jimhudson said:
> ...


I agree that it is not a cruise ship. My statement was that if you stacked* THREE *sub racks they would equal about the size of a Viewliner roomette. The Attack subs I worked on in Charleston had individual A/C vents and a plug for earphones that tapped in to the ships audio entertainment system. This was back in the 73-75 time frame.

My understanding is the Ohio class boomers (SSBN) are larger than the SSNs and in addition to individual A/C control and audio plug ins have a pull down DVD player. Below is what nav.mil says. I think they are talking about SSN.

Anyways I know tube duty is not a piece of cake. Deep diving death defying as my attack buddies use to say.


Where do Submariners sleep?
On U.S. Navy submarines, living quarters are called "berthing areas" that provide no more than 15 square feet of space per man for sleep and personal belongings. *On most submarines, each crewman's bed (called a bunk, berth or rack) has a reading light, a ventilation duct, an earphone jack for the ship's audio entertainment system, and a curtain to provide a small (but welcome) measure of privacy.* The crewmen store their clothing and personal belongings in a sturdy pan-like locker beneath their mattress. When a U.S. Navy submarine is at sea, lights in the berthing areas are normally dimmed. About one third of the crew is asleep at a time because submarines operate 24 hours a day. The crew works in shifts, normally six hours on, 12 hours off. Only the captain and executive officer of the submarine have private rooms, called staterooms, in which to work and sleep. Sometimes, there are more people onboard than there are regular bunks. When this happens, a few of the crewmen have to sleep in makeshift bunks in the torpedo room. These temporary bunks are fitted on storage racks where torpedoes and missiles are normally kept. Space is always very limited on submarines, and there are very few large or open spaces where people can make a bed.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/faq.html

NAVYBLUE


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## ehbowen (Jan 7, 2012)

NAVYBLUE said:


> On U.S. Navy submarines, living quarters are called "berthing areas" that provide no more than 15 square feet of space per man for sleep and personal belongings. *On most submarines, each crewman's bed (called a bunk, berth or rack) has a reading light, a ventilation duct, an earphone jack for the ship's audio entertainment system, and a curtain to provide a small (but welcome) measure of privacy.* The crewmen store their clothing and personal belongings in a sturdy pan-like locker beneath their mattress. When a U.S. Navy submarine is at sea, lights in the berthing areas are normally dimmed. About one third of the crew is asleep at a time because submarines operate 24 hours a day. The crew works in shifts, normally six hours on, 12 hours off. Only the captain and executive officer of the submarine have private rooms, called staterooms, in which to work and sleep. Sometimes, there are more people onboard than there are regular bunks. When this happens, a few of the crewmen have to sleep in makeshift bunks in the torpedo room. These temporary bunks are fitted on storage racks where torpedoes and missiles are normally kept. Space is always very limited on submarines, and there are very few large or open spaces where people can make a bed.
> 
> http://www.navy.mil/...no/n87/faq.html


Makes my battleship seem like a palace....

Okay, so sixty sailors and all their gear in a 30' x 30' (approx) compartment (which also contained the only access to the freezer room, so the mess cooks were always shifting supplies in and out day and night) is hardly a "palace". Still, we had a table (home to a semi-permanent card game), a TV, and air conditioning. I don't regret the time I spent there.

----Eric, ex-MM1 USN, USS Missouri (BB-63) 1985-1988.


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## NAVYBLUE (Jan 8, 2012)

ehbowen said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > On U.S. Navy submarines, living quarters are called "berthing areas" that provide no more than 15 square feet of space per man for sleep and personal belongings. *On most submarines, each crewman's bed (called a bunk, berth or rack) has a reading light, a ventilation duct, an earphone jack for the ship's audio entertainment system, and a curtain to provide a small (but welcome) measure of privacy.* The crewmen store their clothing and personal belongings in a sturdy pan-like locker beneath their mattress. When a U.S. Navy submarine is at sea, lights in the berthing areas are normally dimmed. About one third of the crew is asleep at a time because submarines operate 24 hours a day. The crew works in shifts, normally six hours on, 12 hours off. Only the captain and executive officer of the submarine have private rooms, called staterooms, in which to work and sleep. Sometimes, there are more people onboard than there are regular bunks. When this happens, a few of the crewmen have to sleep in makeshift bunks in the torpedo room. These temporary bunks are fitted on storage racks where torpedoes and missiles are normally kept. Space is always very limited on submarines, and there are very few large or open spaces where people can make a bed.
> ...


Hey, snipe .First thank you for your service. When I was an exam writer at Pensacola, FL took wife and kids to Mobile, Alabama to see the BB moored there. In addition to the knee knockers you had to watch to keep from getting your head smashed. What, was everyone on BB duty during WWII 5'2"' (LOL) Gee, the overheads are short.

NAVYBLUE


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## jonesie (Feb 5, 2015)

Being a maturing woman with a disability, I want the toilet and sink to stay. Using a public restroom can be quite appalling since some people(women and men) feel if they don't have to clean it so why should they care how they leave it.


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## Ryan (Feb 5, 2015)

Sorry, that ship sailed years ago.


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## KmH (Feb 5, 2015)

Or "Sorry. That train left the station". LOL.


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## pennyk (Feb 5, 2015)

jonesie said:


> Being a maturing woman with a disability, I want the toilet and sink to stay. Using a public restroom can be quite appalling since some people(women and men) feel if they don't have to clean it so why should they care how they leave it.


Ditto, except I have no disabilities other than "germaphobia."


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## Acela150 (Feb 5, 2015)

Wearing layers isn't one?


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 5, 2015)

Being a Liberal in Orlando isn' t a handicap?


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 5, 2015)

jonesie said:


> Being a maturing woman with a disability, I want the toilet and sink to stay. Using a public restroom can be quite appalling since some people(women and men) feel if they don't have to clean it so why should they care how they leave it.


Feel free to enjoy the toilet and sink in your roomette on your next trip on the Sunset Limited to Orlando, where you can drink champagne and read your newspaper while thinking fondly of the linens and real flowers in the dining car...


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## zephyr17 (Feb 5, 2015)

johnny.menhennet said:


> 'MattW' said:
> 
> 
> > About mixing the Viewliner I and IIs, wouldn't there still likely be a net gain of revenue sleeper space even if you're not selling one room per sleeper because of the baggage/dorm cars? Using the Crescent, as I understand it, currently 6-8 roomettes are taken by crew. Once the baggage dorms come online, all sleeper space would then be revenue space, correct? If ARROW had to be setup to only sell 11 roomettes instead of 12 for all sleepers, even where 12 are available, wouldn't that mean that Amtrak would still be gaining 4-6 revenue roomettes over the current situation once the baggage/dorms come online?
> ...


They'd best keep with the plan to keep the IIs (and converted Is once they start showing up) captive to certain trains, Sunnyside's vagaries notwithstanding.


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 6, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > 'MattW' said:
> ...



I've been wondering what the plan is - it sounds like once the Viewliner IIs start showing up they'll be assigned to certain trains, and all the cars on that train will have the Viewliner IIs? If that's true, which trains are supposed to have them?

We've been avoiding the east coast routes due to our extreme distaste for the Viewliner Is, and I assumed that it would be years (if not decades) until all the Viewliner Is are refurbished as well & it would be "safe" to take a Viewliner. If we can be "guaranteed" to get Viewliner IIs on certain routes before then, that would be great!


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## CoachSlumber (Feb 6, 2015)

AlanB said:


> 'johnny.menhennet' said:
> 
> 
> > As we have heard, the Viewliner II roomettes will not feature a bathroom, and a roomette space will be converted to a public bathroom. With the extra space in the room now being available, how is the extra space going to be utilized?
> ...


So sayeth you!


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## jis (Feb 6, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Being a Liberal in Orlando isn' t a handicap?


Orlando and Orange County is actually quite Blue leaning


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## Larry H. (Feb 6, 2015)

Amtrak could have taken a better lesson from Pullman. The roomettes they had were not at all a problem when it came to the toilets. The room design was much better and I don't ever recall thinking the toilet was a problem. In fact I would much prefer it to the current system of running down the hall or worse yet, downstairs in the middle of the night. I do agree however that the current view liners have many problems with the toilet. For one which I brought up some years back here is that often the curtain made to hide ones view into the room are poorly made or missing so many hooks that when your seated on the toilet someone walking down the hall can look right at you. They may have fixed that but I doubt it. Then too the view liners to me looked like what they are, a bunch of pods bolted into place. I found that extra odd ceiling to be rather cold and unfriendly looking compared to a room that is actually enclosed at the top.

Larry


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## StriderGDM (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm one of those personally in favor of the toilet in the room and have never had an issue.

They did at some point put velcro on all the curtain edges (at least the ones I've seen) which make the view pretty "viewtight"

That said I'll survive the new Viewliner IIs


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